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謝謝 我們開會時間已到那麼還有幾個黨團幹部還沒有到我們工作同仁麻煩通知一下好謝謝 我們黃總召到了沒有還有張祺凱副總召到了沒有羅書長到了"},{"start":1866.815,"end":1880.092,"text":"黃總召來不來好柯總召最棒今天第一個到現場柯總召來請坐張祺凱張副總召"},{"start":1929.093,"end":1950.658,"text":"那時間已到因為那個黃總召會慢一點點張啟凱副總召在路上我想時間已經開始了我們因為把握時間我們就開始進行好嗎好謝謝各位已經到場的各位黨團幹部各位列席官員以及各位工作夥伴我們今天協商題目有四個第一題是財政收支劃分法的復樣"},{"start":1951.798,"end":1965.102,"text":"第二題是選罷法修正案第三題是人工智慧基本法制定案第四題是114年度附屬單位預算案第二個重點第二題選罷法由於還要再溝通"},{"start":1965.7,"end":1991.209,"text":"所以我們今天就不列入協商討論第三題人工智慧基本法制定案以及第四題114年度附屬單位預算案其中附屬單位的預算案我們今天原則只處理營業部分其餘的非營業部分我們則其在協商討論非營業待命的相關部會"},{"start":1992.819,"end":2008.156,"text":"首長以及官員現在可以離席再重複一遍非營業部分待命的官員以及相關工作同仁可以先離開第四 我們現在從第一題開始我們首先請民進黨團發言國民黨團請準備"},{"start":2013.069,"end":2035.277,"text":"主席 各位列席代表有關於第一案 財化法的復議案的問題我想各位大家印象還是應該有很深刻吧也就是說財化法第一次的時候在今年二月的時候也有復議案那也有行政院長來做報告那這一次是應該嚴厲邀請行政院長來做備詢報告以上"},{"start":2040.627,"end":2047.23,"text":"謝謝柯建民總召清楚的發言就是行政院長來做報告 人力辦理那請國民黨團發言 民眾黨團請準備謝謝院長 柯總召 張副總召 各黨代表這個大概又創了中華民國憲政史上的特例"},{"start":2064.451,"end":2090.221,"text":"不只一任的行政院長內提了八次複議案還同一個法案可以提兩次複議這真是荒天下之大吉在過去一次複議案成功被在野黨所否決會被國會所否決行政院長早就應該之所進退了現在已經把整個行政團體行政院已經把複議當作他的日常"},{"start":2091.96,"end":2115.294,"text":"只要国会通过的他不想实施就提复议案复议案没有通过他也不下台然后继续用蛮干的方式违法违宪的方式来执政我想这次的财务法非常的清楚实际我们统筹分配款都给地方4100多亿"},{"start":2118.717,"end":2135.826,"text":"然後行政院扣掉了計劃性補助2600多億所以實際上照這一次第二次的修法第二次修法完成以後總共只給地方1500多億明年相較今年只給地方多1500多億佔總預算的5%"},{"start":2145.745,"end":2174.165,"text":"那如果再把所謂的一兆兩千五百億特別軍購再加入明年的三兆零兩百五十億的總預算裡面的話這個total才不到啊不到啊大概3% 4%吧3% 4% 4%吧不到4%我想一個行政院長不但違法亂紀"},{"start":2176.019,"end":2204.983,"text":"還把整個國家搞得烏煙瘴氣天天把國會三讀的法案也經總統已經公告實施的法案不暫拒不履行還用這蠻橫的方式來騷擾國會來浪費全民人 全體國民的時間我們覺得 朱鎔泰啊要趕快回頭思案啦回頭思案啦"},{"start":2206.283,"end":2232.403,"text":"放過全國基層的百姓讓全國的地方政府能夠好好的來施政來照顧百姓不要再提無謂的服役案當然陳腔老調的這個所謂總統態勢的報告連跟在野黨協商協商總院長都從來不曾跟來跟在野黨協商原來是他還沒有得到啊"},{"start":2233.708,"end":2257.063,"text":"賴總統的授權所以沒有辦法來協商這樣的一個行政院長我們不曉得他有什麼樣可以繼續再留任所以我們完全不覺得他有必要來立法院做成槍爛掉的報告實在是完全沒有必要我們希望明天就能夠把這個實在是不需要再推出來的復議案我們盡快來把它解決"},{"start":2258.044,"end":2284.213,"text":"好 謝謝國民黨團的發言接下來請台灣民眾黨團張旗開委員請發言行政院長 總統他已經變成全台灣最大的亂源了中華民國在賴清德跟總統上台之前提的復議案只有六個到民國113年的時候只有六個復議案現在總統他今天提了第八個耶過半還加一"},{"start":2286.403,"end":2304.737,"text":"邵柏杰行政院長目無法跡 無法無天的行政院長提附議案憲法上面很明定很清楚啊你要負起政治責任啊你要當兒戲是不是立法院通過總統已經公告你該依法執行了你就執行"},{"start":2306.004,"end":2334.943,"text":"特別這裡面都是照顧到地方政府跟一般的這個民眾社會福利地方建設的這個錢你本來就該做的那要否決你要負起政治責任啊你又不下台變成整個台灣最大的亂源了好 那我們討論現在收到的報告不用來了啦不用來了來胡說八道嗎連叫財政部把試算表拿出來都拿不出來他念長好意啊他們來拜託你"},{"start":2335.871,"end":2361.391,"text":"村長來拜託你那你至少你帶著誠意來解決方案來最根本的你連一個財化法都拿不出來你來報告什麼嚴重的失實你這行政院版還能用嗎你來報告什麼更重要的在野黨主導兩次的財化法最新的修正第一個把地方自治的肉食因為中央過於急錢跟局權"},{"start":2362.639,"end":2388.08,"text":"很多錢本來就該下放這不是長久民進黨以前的主張嗎部分黨派專家寫者的主張嗎很多民眾的主張世界的潮流嗎結果第一次修正把該有的錢下放來這第一次修正是對的結果民進黨政府行政院竟然像土匪一樣竟然在刻厚大砍地方的補助款一個加一次好不容易爭取到我們好不容易爭取到66億的統籌備稅款"},{"start":2390.558,"end":2412.282,"text":"給嘉義市政府 結果你地方的補助款被他砍了69億耶像土匪一樣 違法亂紀台中市政府一個捷運 南線捷運已經蓋好了你該下放補貼的錢60億給他砍到1.6億台北市 蔣萬安的台北市捷運的錢被你砍了260幾億怎麼這樣無法無天呢"},{"start":2415.936,"end":2427.99,"text":"所以依照我們第二次的修正案我們明定地方的一般補助款不能夠比去年低 去年還低第二個又針對行政院去亂砍計畫型補助款2900多億砍到剩308那裡面很多的錢"},{"start":2436.533,"end":2462.125,"text":"都是攸關社會福利的基礎建設的錢小朋友的錢 教育的錢 你敢砍所以我們明定不能夠比過去十年來的低這兩次的修法非常好啊去看看以前民進黨提的包括賴清德到台南市長到行政黨提的啊包括所有的專家學者講的不就是這樣嗎所以就用現在已經立法院兩次修正過的版本就好了明天進行投票"},{"start":2464.264,"end":2480.828,"text":"無法無天的 無法無天的總統派來 我們副議員再次的伯傑那張慶豪 容我提醒你一下剛剛發言的民進黨團的柯總召的意思是說要邀新中央來報告國民黨團表達反對 現在您的態度呢我們有反對啊還在聽他無說八道嗎現在請中加兵委發言好 沒問題 我們尊重發言人 中加兵委員請"},{"start":2485.589,"end":2513.014,"text":"好 謝謝院長 謝謝主席今天聽到了在野黨兩位黨團的發言深深覺得遺憾也覺得詫異也覺得彷彿大家的記憶都消失了要說到立法院史上之罪還不是有兩年內行政院提出了八次的覆議有果必有因那這個因是哪裡拿呢"},{"start":2514.381,"end":2532.598,"text":"這個因一開始來自於立法院擴權修改了立法院職權行使法這也是我們本屆國會第一次行政院提出復議的案子立法院職權行使法我們立法院的國會多數創了一個紀錄"},{"start":2535.236,"end":2563.735,"text":"立法院編制的立法院手冊首度發行了增補資料這個增補資料呢主要就是增補立法院職權行使法裡面一堆紅通通的條文就是遭行政院附議未過提出憲法訴訟由憲法法庭判決後4-9134-9號所宣告的違憲的條文"},{"start":2566.633,"end":2591.593,"text":"可恥啊立法院的多數 在野多數 轄多數通過一堆違憲的條文而且那一次還好那一次行政院要求覆議好歹還讓行政院來說明說明之後行政院說明之後立法院的多數仍然強悍的推翻覆議然後呢 憲法訴訟後大敗而歸啊鐵證在這裡"},{"start":2593.939,"end":2617.696,"text":"要說到兩年八次的復議 更可笑的是什麼是同樣的 在野掌握國會的多數的藍白 國眾兩黨在一年之內 不到一年 財化法修了三次因為財化法修了三次 才逼使行政院不得不在一年之內再度對於財化法提出復議"},{"start":2619.13,"end":2627.601,"text":"所以今天我們這樣的草野協商其實關心國家的民眾也好社會各界也好都在看"},{"start":2628.962,"end":2656.433,"text":"行政院依憲法徵修條文的規定提請復議如果在野國會多數認為行政院長不升任不稱職那就請依照憲法徵修條文的規定你們來提起不信任案不然我們要自己去面對我們還是很懇切的呼籲由於裁判法上次行政院提請復議的時候我們本院是有邀請行政院長來做說明"},{"start":2657.321,"end":2681.433,"text":"成如立法院職權行使法本院在面對行政院提出覆議的同時我們也有邀請行政院來說明我們只是認為這個最基本的民主原則應該立法院有這個度量 有這個信心立法院的國會多數應該讓行政院來說明為什麼在野多數一年修了三次裁劃法"},{"start":2682.213,"end":2705.436,"text":"他要兩度的提出這樣的一個複議案要檢討的其實不是在行政院是在被憲法法庭打臉的立法院的國會多數也就是國眾兩黨所掌握的國會多數我們再次的請主席今天我們第一個本題就複議案 裁判好的複議案我們邀請"},{"start":2706.556,"end":2726.975,"text":"行政院長來做說明讓在野多數去理解為什麼行政院認為自愛難行以上很誠懇的請主席來扯中促成比照上次邀請左院長列席說明好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員二人發言國民黨團請二人發言台灣民眾黨團請準備"},{"start":2733.14,"end":2756.51,"text":"要找藉口 還怕找不到嗎史上八次婦役的賴皮院長就是卓榮泰這鐵板叮叮的事情剛剛聽宗教兵講了一大堆 講到我的心都飛掉 為什麼呢八次都有理由啊 好厲害啊 超強的找藉口 找藉口是很容易啦但是我跟你講 也不用那麼麻煩嘛反正你也知道婦役來 我們一定會把他踢回去嘛"},{"start":2757.15,"end":2772.104,"text":"那說真的一個賴皮院長復一八次他也更不在乎立法院來報告什麼報告浪費民進黨的時間我是幫民進黨節省時間所以不用來報告了明天就直接我們就用復一復一來我們就把表決否決回去嘛這也是你們"},{"start":2772.284,"end":2795.398,"text":"你們要的一個形理如一的結果所以我想找那麼多藉口我覺得也不必了那既然大家覺得院長反正心意已決嘛那來報告也是多此一舉那不如我們就明天比較乾乾脆脆的來表決那看看這個民眾是不是能夠接受這樣的一個賴皮婦醫院長以上謝謝羅志強書記長接下來請台灣民眾黨團二輪發言"},{"start":2798.103,"end":2824.634,"text":"我想還是針對主題來加以發言剛剛民主進步黨黨團的幹部如果要講國會改革法案要講這一次我們的憲法法庭怎麼樣忘了自己要捍衛的是憲法不是捍衛民進黨執政集團的利益的話所做出來的所謂憲法法庭的判決有多麼荒謬可笑我姑且不論講這個"},{"start":2826.135,"end":2841.99,"text":"宗嘉斌委員剛剛講得口沫橫飛啊說的是可恥的修法那可能憲法法院的判決沒有好好看啊因為他宣告違憲的範圍還不是這次的修法連更早之前那一次賴清德有參與的也被宣告違憲耶"},{"start":2843.824,"end":2863.48,"text":"那我不曉得爛心的總統現在在總統府裡面耳朵會不會覺得癢啊哇 說怎麼我那個時候提針對有關於國情報告我有同意的條文也一併被宣告違憲啊要講這件事情 回去啊把憲法法庭的判決好好念一念不要半桶水響叮噹啊"},{"start":2864.921,"end":2890.515,"text":"但我今天在坐在這邊所要表達的是什麼所要表達的是台灣民眾黨對於財政收支劃分法的這件事情我們非常的重視非常的重視所以去年我請大家回憶我們三催四請請行政院拿出行政院的版本永遠得到一句話現在的版本就是最好的版本那前一陣子我就不理解啦"},{"start":2891.701,"end":2918.578,"text":"那如果現在的版本就是最好的版本怎麼卓榮泰又突然今天拿出了所謂財政收支劃分法的修正案到底是發生了什麼事情我想過去啊這段時間卓榮泰針對財政收支劃分法他不曉得開過幾次記者會了他要講的話全部都講了但是我要再表達一次立場"},{"start":2920.353,"end":2949.366,"text":"我們今年在處理今年預算的時候我們刪的是中央政府各機關結果竟然拿地方政府魯人勒鼠 636億直接從地方政府的一般補助款砍違法濫權 膽大妄為那是沒有辦法 地方政府被綁票了所以我們那時候追加預算的時候才免於同意所以這一次針對財政收支劃分法"},{"start":2950.373,"end":2972.51,"text":"我覺得行政院院長卓榮泰要提復議那提復議我們就按照議事規則表決沒有必要讓這個第八度提起復議中華民國憲政史上最會提起復議的院長再來立法院這邊做任何的報告以上說明"},{"start":2973.2,"end":2986.78,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌總召的說明各位黨團幹部我想經過二輪的發言大家立場都表述得非常清楚顯然還沒有辦法達成共識我們休息五分鐘進行溝通一下來 現在休息"},{"start":3329.363,"end":3356.698,"text":"好 各位黨團幹部我們繼續開會我們現在在草泥一個結論那在這個草泥結論之前民進黨團 鍾嘉斌幹事長希望能夠要求三輪發言我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言國民黨團 台灣民眾黨團請準備那謝謝主席 還有葉院長我想剛剛的休息協商呢其實大家都有一個共同的想法"},{"start":3357.509,"end":3370.388,"text":"就是行政院在過去七次的復議案當中有四個案子超過半數是行政院長有來向立法院說明為何行政院提出復議為何覺得自愛難行"},{"start":3372.16,"end":3400.429,"text":"但是如果行政院長可以來說明後我相信各黨後續要來詢問行政院長或者互相討論的時間或次數應該就豁然開朗了所以剛剛我們對於後續各黨上台發言的人次跟時間我們覺得可以有高度的協調空間但是我們還是願意來爭取讓行政院長原力先不要說前面七次的復議有四個案子"},{"start":3401.189,"end":3423.698,"text":"七个案子的复议案有四个案子是行政院长有亲自到本院来向立法院说明而其中呢我们这次所讨论的财政修饰划分法在上次的复议案本院也是同意邀请行政院长来做说明那我觉得这个立法院的国会多数做了一个决定"},{"start":3424.81,"end":3451.226,"text":"你立了一個法案讓行政院覺得自愛難行也應該聽聽看行政院是怎麼說明難道連院長來說明為何院門的裁劃法值得我們本院來支持連這樣的空間都不敢面對嗎難道是擔心說院長報告完了社會知道原來行政院的裁劃法才是對國家對中央跟地方對民生是最好的"},{"start":3452.006,"end":3467.586,"text":"如果說目前在野黨認為他們所掌握的國會多數通過的裁判法修了三次的裁判法是最好的抱歉喔如果是最好的為什麼要修三次為什麼還有錯誤還要再重修那如果是有這個信心那何妨"},{"start":3468.527,"end":3491.376,"text":"就讓行政院長來說明為什麼自然難行如果在野多數 在野黨認為行政院長講得沒道理在國會的殿堂上很清楚的為自己所訂的法案來加以辯護我想這是國人所樂見的所以我想再次懇求希望我們在野黨既然敢用國會多數訂出的法案就應該要有那個度量 有那個膽量"},{"start":3492.676,"end":3521.321,"text":"來面對行政院提出複製的理由如果不讓行政院長來彷彿說就落入了之前外界在批評的立法院就只是會敬賦惡毒只會沒收討論只是會過水協商然後最後黑箱表決我們希望不要讓國人留下這樣的印象再次的懇求後面各黨的發言人次時間我們都可以討論但是是不是最前面讓行政院長來說明行政院版的裁劃法為何要請本院"},{"start":3522.121,"end":3530.406,"text":"將我們之前修過的將各位在野黨修過的才化法有哪些無法執行的具體說明好 請國民黨團三輪發言我忍不住要笑一下今天如果卓榮泰是這個任期兩年就復一一次我們這個在野黨說你不用來報告我覺得在野黨有點理虧復一兩次好像應該也要讓你報告八次耶"},{"start":3549.929,"end":3566.156,"text":"八次耶對不對 兩年八次耶而且中間我要跟你講你剛剛自己都講才化法已經讓他來講過一次他也沒理大家對不對 也沒理大家他一定要繼續硬幹啊什麼叫做要不要聽他講到底他根本不打算講理嘛"},{"start":3567.196,"end":3595.9,"text":"卓榮泰今天上來 我不想用粗話講 對不對你講完以後 你不會有任何改變嘛你該講的話 上次附議案也讓你講過在院長不是沒有讓你講喔也有讓你報告啊請問報告的結果是什麼去年7月請行政院提院版行政院就是不提啊等到立法院三讀通過才劃法 你來蓋牌那說真的 中間你已經講過一次了讓你來報告一次喔那我這邊還是一句話啦"},{"start":3597.54,"end":3618.713,"text":"我們國民黨對於財化法任何的要改變的意見開放但是先請你尊重立法院三讀通過的財化法你先讓他上路一年嘛財化法需要那麼急你上路一年行政院有什麼意見我們再來討論你不要等了一年半之後然後現在你又突然來蓋牌"},{"start":3620.034,"end":3644.724,"text":"那我說真的讓這個我們講賴皮的卓院長來報告我看不到任何實意啊所以還是一句話今天如果他只是一次兩次復議喔那我說真的來報告不讓他報告我覺得有點站不住腳不是耶 八次耶八次這樣子搞賴皮喔我覺得立法院真的我們不打算浪費民進黨時間也不要浪費國民黨跟民眾黨時間啦以上 謝謝"},{"start":3649.535,"end":3665.005,"text":"是這樣啦 那個羅兄如果上次院長來報告才華法16條之一我們國會多數修過的公式錯誤有聽進去的話今天才華法不用再來修這個公式錯誤啦好 我們請台灣民眾黨團請三輪發言其實我覺得針對左龍泰提出八度復議的這件事情"},{"start":3675.683,"end":3689.73,"text":"我看了那個聯合報的社論我覺得寫得滿好的卓院長我是勸他啦靜下心來好好想一想孰以自知何以自知"},{"start":3691.523,"end":3708.309,"text":"這樣子對國家對社會對人民都比較好台灣民眾黨的立場沒有改變這個要跟國會宣戰的行政院院長沒有針對這件事情站在立法院再多說什麼的必要"},{"start":3713.682,"end":3741.781,"text":"各位黨團幹部在休息之前我呼籲大家掌握黃金五分鐘溝通顯然還是無法達成共識那麼 容許我來把大家不同意見裡面找出一些可能可以接受點我來宣告一下大家看可不可以接受如果可以接受我們再請大家簽字好吧 我們做出兩項可能的結論一 各黨團同意3月5號院會報告事項處理完畢同日"},{"start":3742.902,"end":3762.768,"text":"改開全院委員會審查財政收支劃分法附議案同日上午七點於議場進行院會及全院委員會簽到審查的時候不邀請行政院院長列席說明由各黨團推派一位發言每位委員發言時間五分鐘順序一例授權議事處辦理"},{"start":3764.554,"end":3770.919,"text":"名單請於12月4號星期四下午5點30分前送議事處會診預時視同放棄當次院會我們不進行過世論壇"},{"start":3775.305,"end":3804.245,"text":"不處理臨時提案本次會議我也不再處理變更議程含抽出動議二 全院委員會審查完畢同日改開院會進行記名投票表決並由各黨團各推派一位擔任投開票監察員領投票時間一個小時其餘的相關事項事務工作依例授權議事處處來進行辦理請問各黨團幹部針對這兩項宣告可被接受"},{"start":3819.518,"end":3828.727,"text":"那我們就請各位來簽名好嗎我們要進入人工智慧基本法制定案我們要開始進入人工智慧 請"},{"start":3837.963,"end":3838.245,"text":"教育委員會"},{"start":3972.25,"end":3999.963,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨團幹部針對第一案已經簽名達成草野協商的共識我們現在進入第三案人工智慧基本法草案也跟各位黨團幹部報告我們現在開始正式進入來討論第三案先介紹各行政機關的代表我們首先歡迎國科會陳副主委一行 謝謝速發部林部長 謝謝"},{"start":4002.748,"end":4031.49,"text":"教育部吳司長 歡迎您行政院教科文吳處長 一行 謝謝財政部劉專門委員法務部李檢察官 謝謝經濟部周濟政 謝謝勞動部李次長 歡迎您文化部王專門委員 歡迎您行政院人事行政總處"},{"start":4033.74,"end":4039.031,"text":"蔡 孫兩位專門委員人事總署代表"},{"start":4042.065,"end":4061.08,"text":"人事總助代表來了嗎 您站高一點好好好 看到了 好 謝謝啊歡迎歡迎 沒看到好 謝謝我跟各位黨團幹部來報告一下本案在114年8月4號召開十一屆三會期教育及文化交通委員會聯席審查審查完略並決議院會討論之前須交由黨團協商"},{"start":4066.567,"end":4077.276,"text":"接著本案於114年8月21號由國民黨團葛如軍委員召集第一次協商會議當日協商結果除保留法案的名稱"},{"start":4079.127,"end":4107.561,"text":"第二條 第三條 第七條 第十八條 第十九條台灣民眾黨團提案第33條至第39條外其餘條文均已經達成共識為節省各位黨團代表寶貴的時間我們集中討論重點本案是否先行討論上述的保留條文如果大家對已經有共識的條文還有意見我們回頭再來繼續進行討論這點非常重要請問各位黨團幹部有疑"},{"start":4108.962,"end":4123.41,"text":"沒有異議好我們就照上述宣告來通過我們現在開始進行逐條的進行協商協商的時候請參照協商條文對照表與審查報告及禁負二讀的相關文書國民黨協議國民黨協議國務卿田安委你要發言嗎請"},{"start":4132.051,"end":4154.253,"text":"謝謝主席 首先要感謝韓院長對於我國人工智慧發展的重視那我相信行政院的院長也應該是一樣重視的那特別在今天我們由韓院長能夠召集今天安排人工智慧基本法草案的協商那也要感謝今天各黨團代表的列席一起表達對於AI科技發展的關心跟重視"},{"start":4155.534,"end":4173.162,"text":"首先感謝本黨三長對於AI科技的力挺還有我們所有的委員如果沒有我們黨團的鼎力支持我想人工智慧基本法的草案將沒有辦法以教育及交通委員會聯席的方式來進行一個跨領域的跨界的充分的討論"},{"start":4174.202,"end":4179.845,"text":"另外也要特別感謝今天列席的民進黨的陳培余書記長的支持還有我們民進黨的三長的支持尤其陳培余書記長因為接任黨團幹部的因素暫時離開教委委員會但是我們一直念茲在茲知道說陳委員對於人工智慧基本法草案在委員會階段的三次審查以及一次的協商都從未缺席所以這一點我們也要表達說"},{"start":4200.774,"end":4230.394,"text":"科技是可以沒有邊界科技是可以沒有色彩科技是可以一起為民努力的一個產業那同樣的也要感謝民眾黨的劉淑冰委員對於我們AI基本法的支持那民眾黨也非常的支持每一次都非常認真的來一起參與審查的過程那當時也有這個民進黨的委員張雅玲委員在審查過程當中有一直提醒大家對於兒童青少年抱歉"},{"start":4232.316,"end":4259.449,"text":"兒童青少年可能帶來的影響 納入條文之中我們想說人工智慧基本法草案能夠在今天能夠在今天可以進到院長協商的階段真的是要感謝所有跨黨委員的支持那目前人工智慧基本法的草案也因為之前的協商是有成果的所以我們只剩下5個條文有待協商那也希望今天的協商可以順利達成共識讓我們AI基本法可以繼續朝"},{"start":4261.13,"end":4269.897,"text":"這個會期三讀的方向前進那最後我們還是要感謝一下速發部的林一進部長當時我們在委員會協商的時候您是次長那現在您是部長那當時您是次長在委員會審查的階段林部長您也給了我們非常多寶貴的實務建議甚至是細節的文字修正的建議想法"},{"start":4281.926,"end":4289.429,"text":"讓條文是更加完善不過美中不足的地方我們還是要提一下速發部在11月20號有拜會本席的辦公室當場有說雙方的共識條文你們會朝你過來但是事實上10天過去我們今天今天才拿到這個相關的文字態度上還是會覺得希望還可以未來相關的演繹上都還可以更快一點那如果待會有機會說明的話部長也可以說明一下"},{"start":4309.496,"end":4336.995,"text":"為什麼這個法案這麼的重要可是相關的溝通好像常常會稍微這個速度上比較我們沒有辦法非常同步這一點我們也希望在未來以及今天的協商當中呢我們可以看到部長您的說法那我相信今天的共識也應該可以很快的達成謝謝謝謝院長謝謝葛獨鈞委員的發言不過在陳佩玉委員發言之前讓我提醒一下現在行政院版本國民黨團版本民進黨團版本都是人工智慧基本法"},{"start":4338.556,"end":4365.994,"text":"但是有一個台灣民眾黨團所提的是人工智慧發展及管理條例所以陳培育委員等一下發言完畢之後台灣民眾黨團必須要表達意見好 請陳培育委員請好 謝謝韓院長今天主持這個協商那如同剛剛院長所說的我們真的也很希望在今天等一下院長主持的協商裡面根據剛剛我們所談到的保留條文大家都可以快速的高度的有共識喔我認為這件事情非常非常的重要"},{"start":4366.454,"end":4391.965,"text":"也感謝葛如君委員一再的點名我關心我在教文還有AI基本法的關心上次在逐條討論的時候我想我們倆是坐最久超過四五個小時所以我想今天當然也要發言那今天其實還有幾個爭議也要有待院長來秉公處理第一個是關於名稱的問題第二個是關於主管機關的問題那到底該不該有主管機關可能很多人認為一個法當然就要有主管機關"},{"start":4392.805,"end":4420.202,"text":"可是我等一下还是想要拜托院长是不是还是可以让术发部说明到底他们目前为止对于主管机关的掌理或者是后续各自的分工因为我想各位委员非常懂AIAI其实不会只有局限在某一个部会或者是某一个委员会它如何跨部会然后各个目的事业主管机关都有相关的权责可以好好的工作保留相关的弹性到底怎么做是最好的而不是只有符合单一委员的期待"},{"start":4420.862,"end":4448.61,"text":"第三個爭議就是關於AI的定義我們從上一次協商完到目前為止我相信每個人的手機上從原本只認識Chat、GPT到現在有最新的AI工具不管是圖畫、影片、日新月異也就是因為AI的科技發展如此的日新月異所以我們在AI定義上都希望保留相關的彈性而不要因為在母法、基本法裡面寫死了影響後續的發展跟相關科技的可能性"},{"start":4449.19,"end":4475.803,"text":"再來就是關於國科會還是由術發部來處理這個事情等一下要拜託我不確定一下 院長我們今天國科會有來嗎因為葛如君委員一直有點名國科會好 等一下拜託國科會跟術發部兩位都會發言兩位等一下請說明你放心 都會發言好 再來就是大家所關心的如果放入高度框架的風險分類框架看起來某個程度上到底是限制了還是保護了相關AI的發展"},{"start":4476.983,"end":4500.298,"text":"我認為這件事情待會要拜託民眾黨團說清楚因為我相信在這一條的共識上我跟葛如君委員可能是比較像的相關風險分類的框架在保護相關言論自由還有相關內容的取用還有科技發展不要侵害到人權的情況下如何又不要做死了所有的業者或者是學者或者是有心想要投入這個行業的人的發展所以我覺得這是另外一個爭議大家待會要討論的"},{"start":4502.319,"end":4519.575,"text":"至於上一次在協商的時候劉淑冰委員代表民眾黨團所非常堅持的問責機制還有罰則的部分我也很想聽聽看葛委員的高見到底在這個基本法的前提之下它不是作用法再一次強調它不是作用法我們如何不要放入問責跟罰則可是相關"},{"start":4520.916,"end":4536.996,"text":"主管機關因為葛委員很堅持要主管機關如果各自的主管機關在這個議題上有可行的做法也請待會一併提出來給委員們參考最後一個是法律授權它跟主管機關會有所聯動所以等一下我想最正義的兩條一個是主管機關"},{"start":4537.757,"end":4562.885,"text":"再來就是葛委員很堅持的要有一個行政院高度的戰略指導委員會但是我個人的擔心是這個戰略指導委員會會不會跌床架屋會不會相關委員會的訂定跟工作其實沒有辦法落實到而且如果這個委員會就是一年一次它會不會淪為一種大拜拜大開會而這個實質的意義到底在哪裡我其實也抱持著懷疑的態度當然在這個科技面前"},{"start":4563.405,"end":4587.437,"text":"我們有人性我們有相關人權要主張我們有非常多我們在意的事情我們跟科技在對話的時候這些都是要小心的不是我們幾個立法委員在這裡說了算所以要拜託待會院長如果可以的話保留些時間讓主管機關來說明以上 謝謝等一下麻煩請國科會還有書發部準備報告我們現在請台灣民眾黨團所提出的法案名稱請做出說明"},{"start":4588.055,"end":4604.811,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天討論的議題是在人工智慧基本法本榜在之前所提出來的是人工智慧的發展條例跟管理的條例這部分因為我們也經過了內部的黨團裡面的討論當然我們當初的希望是說目前的整個發展"},{"start":4614.319,"end":4628.644,"text":"與日俱進那現在的就是應該趕快就是包括的是整個部分的去進行包括他的一些他的像罰則跟問責機制但是我們後來因為想到如果可以幫助國家先把這個一個基本法先架構先訂出來是一個目標的話我們本來是用的是作用法的目標我們就把它變成把它改成說我們是可以同意的名稱改回是人工智慧基本法好的"},{"start":4642.589,"end":4652.591,"text":"那其他部分我也感謝是說我也剛才也是因為三因為是三月份就任了我剛在上一個會期當中的就是也是努力的在學習也發現到說的確剛才所說的我們都努力的在參與包括的是在主管機關啊這一部分那當然我們後來也才也才速發部也是在11月初的時候有來做一個來做說明那但是真的還是沒有看到就是他"},{"start":4668.414,"end":4676.519,"text":"提出來真正的是後來再跟我們做一個在可能更完整的這一部分但是尤其是我們今天所看到的這樣子的一本這樣的一本的那個分條的這個各條的這樣子的比較表當中應該是已速發布的版本為為為一個依據可是我們本我們但是我們整個教文委員會當中非常的努力的經有形成的一個一個這樣子的一個一個如今委員會"},{"start":4693.63,"end":4710.144,"text":"委員會版本的那個修正版本甚至都有一些修正的條文都已經是通過的我想應該要尊重到本委員會當中各個委員15位委員的一個努力的一個成果所以是不是在以後的條文的對照上面是可能要討論是目前我們本委員會已經形成的這樣的一個條文的視訊還是要用"},{"start":4717.991,"end":4747.097,"text":"現在速發部所提出來的版本順序可能就是要去思考一下下這個是一個可能會有爭議的或是說到時候先弄出來的大家在這個結構在這做一些條文的對手這可能是要去做一個協調的那至於說什麼高風險架構等等我們那是因為過去是用作用法的方向這部分也因為有速發部的一個溝通我們這部分了解到當我們題目名稱草案的名稱都已經有修改的時候我們會做也因為我們知道說他有對應性的一個部分因為"},{"start":4747.637,"end":4752.739,"text":"事實上速發部或是各個AI的它對於在各個部會交通部 衛福部還有在農業部上面的對應可能是不太一樣的 即使是高風險可是對於到其他的部會可能不太一樣這部分我們可以理解但是我也需要說速發部在這個公開的場合當中在做說明但是主管機關上面我們還是有一些堅持是如果當沒有一個主管機關的話尤其像這次就是速發部已經提出來了"},{"start":4772.908,"end":4776.951,"text":"他們的用阻摺的部分在做方法我們覺得堅持我們應該想說在抒發部本身這部分它還是作為阻摺機構但是在相對於其他部分它要做個彙整重整的一個效果在我們想說提出到我們目前的方法是這樣的一個過程好 謝謝蘇秉偉你這邊跟你報告我們是以第一次協商條例為主體"},{"start":4792.182,"end":4812.095,"text":"那麼也要跟各黨團幹部來報告一下台灣民眾黨團也同意法案的名稱就照協商人工智慧基本法也同意了那這個我們就確定了好不好 照協商的名稱通過那接下來我們請速發部跟國科會來分別簡短扼壓報告因為名稱已經達成統一共識了請"},{"start":4814.136,"end":4832.188,"text":"感謝院長還有非常感謝葛委員陳委員還有劉委員剛才的發言那如同各位委員所說的事實上這個人工智慧基本法我們是有相當的共識的那我想我們都是一方面我們擔心AI的風險因為AI的能力實在是太大了"},{"start":4832.808,"end":4853.706,"text":"那另外一方面我們也希望能促進台灣AI產業的發展所以我們才會訂立這個法那現在就是有兩個條文就是還沒有達到完全的共識第一個是主管機關的部分那我們非常理解就是葛委員還有那個國民黨黨團一直希望把這個層級拉高那因為國科會"},{"start":4854.947,"end":4868.002,"text":"事實上它是一個委員會所以它事實上是層級是比我們抒發部好像它那個經費也都在它上面但是我們還是希望說不要訂定主管機關為什麼呢因為不訂定主管機關的時候這時候"},{"start":4869.884,"end":4889.324,"text":"主責的機關事實上就是行政院而行政院裡面所有的部會其實跟AI都有關係這個是為什麼我們認為說不需要訂那個主管機關的原因那另外一條就是戰略委員會在這個地方也是類似的原因我們也是認為說"},{"start":4890.345,"end":4917.421,"text":"這個AI非常非常重要那事實上將來各個部會大概每天都要面對AI對我們這個社會帶來的衝擊那並不是說我們認為AI不重要所以我們覺得說不需要設立戰略委員會而是我們認為說將來其實我們每天都要面臨都要處理這些事情那不需要說每年固定再開一次會議來談這件事情以上報告"},{"start":4918.281,"end":4944.04,"text":"謝謝林部長精彩精闢的發言謝謝我們現在請國科會我們陳副主委請好謝謝院長感謝院長還有各位委員客套話不說直接切中好謝謝以上感謝各位委員那國科會這邊針對主管機關以及這個特別委員會這邊我們其實也是跟訴發部的立場是一樣的因為主管機關"},{"start":4946.682,"end":4965.121,"text":"這個其實是不宜去設定國會並沒有比書發部來得大我們其實是平行的部會所以如果不訂主管機關其實還是回到了行政院去做協商所以我們建議是不需要訂而且在條文當中其實各個單位需要去做的事情本來就已經有指定了"},{"start":4966.322,"end":4994.057,"text":"那特別委員會這邊也是一樣因為我們已經有既定的一個處理的機制每天都在處理這兩樣的事情所以似乎是不需要再去額外再多盯一個委員會謝謝陳副主席那個訴發部跟國科會講的兩位代表的閣員講的非常值得大家去省思那我知道現在國民黨團是希望主管單位是國科會那民進黨團希望是訴發部"},{"start":4995.097,"end":5016.075,"text":"那剛剛兩 沒關係沒關係你等一下可以台灣民眾黨才是希望速發布那我的意思是說兩位剛剛閣員所報告的值得我們各位黨黨幹部來深思那如果這樣的話我們不設一個單位的話就直接由行政院來統反而他包羅萬象什麼都可以權力是最大的這一點請大家共同思考閣主席 請發言"},{"start":5017.901,"end":5019.603,"text":"好謝謝院長也謝謝這個林部長跟我們的這個副主委剛剛所提的意見那還有包含兩個政黨的一些想法"},{"start":5029.76,"end":5051.321,"text":"我想这一点我也要明确的提到刚才陈培宇委员有提到三个字叫跨部会其实我们认为这个AI基本法最重要的就是AI会影响的部会跟范围是非常广的现在我们看到的是步步有AI结果是步步蹭AI全世界包含日本韩国美国新加坡"},{"start":5051.781,"end":5069.794,"text":"都在高速的發展AI的產業競爭能力的時候其實有非常多的國際大廠還有人才的機制需要找到一個明確的一個國家級的一個特定部會的單位所以我們可以看到南韓的AI基本法"},{"start":5070.214,"end":5086.084,"text":"就是以科研的部会来作为主管机关日本的AI基本法也是以经产省一个特定的部会来做主管机关加上科研的部会没有任何一个有AI基本法的单位是没有"},{"start":5086.604,"end":5090.407,"text":"投的是沒有部會領頭的這根本就會變成一個無頭的法案那另外呢我們想說在這個主管機關的選擇上面為什麼國科會可能會比速發部更好我想有兩個非常明確的理由第一點呢是國科會主委在我們的行政機關的規範上面"},{"start":5107.882,"end":5128.519,"text":"是由政務委員兼任而行政院的政務委員呢本身就可以做跨部會的協調而同時呢我們的國客會本身也就囊括了我們的AI預算的一個步劃跟規範同時國會主委呢也是三政委平台的成員之一所以我們先不講高度講廣度的部分我們認為國客會是非常合適的那第二點我們剛剛這個陳培委員也有提到"},{"start":5134.744,"end":5149.859,"text":"AI從checkGPT開始被大家高度的關注了以後其實現在大語言模型進入一個新的境地下一個戰場很可能不是只是數位的AI很可能是實體的AI有機器人有一些相關的一些"},{"start":5150.739,"end":5160.485,"text":"實體的裝置甚至是這個自動行走的一些設備這些很可能都跟我們的竹科半導體的產業息息相關而剛好我們的科學園區的主管機關也是國科會"},{"start":5165.908,"end":5186.357,"text":"那所以我們認為總整起來我們如果真的是要有一個戰略發展的方向這個三角的這個設計是符合我們亞太地區有科技產業的地方來做的所以我們其實不是說沒有抒發部的角色而是有一個三角的平衡關係上面有一個行政院層級的戰略委員會"},{"start":5188.038,"end":5216.618,"text":"另外由國科會作為法規條式的主管機關以及戰略委員會的幕僚機構同時速發部在法案裡面也還是明確的列明了數位發展部作為風險的分類所以這樣子的一個結構正好就是南韓跟日本都是同樣在做這樣的設計我相信我們要讓台灣在下一個20年40年有AI的競爭力我想在AI基本法有這樣的一個設計是最好不過的 謝謝"},{"start":5218.03,"end":5243.015,"text":"國務卿委員的重點跟兩岸格言是不一樣的大家可以聽得很清楚人有人頭 街有街頭AI也要有自己的龍頭大致上有這個意思不能夠變無頭那台灣民眾黨團請發言好 這個議題如果誠如處發部所講的就是行政院是主管機關的話那是不是也要把它明定在那個相關的"},{"start":5244.356,"end":5265.535,"text":"條文當中因為現在是變得沒有條文嘛對不對那不然這樣的話真的你給行政院到底連哪個部會是什麼都不知道啊那都行政院那行政院長日理萬機那剛我們又看到了在速發部的給的意見當中就是說因為現在的一個一個一個委員會的一個"},{"start":5267.436,"end":5281.708,"text":"數目已經超過了所以現在沒有機會再融上去這是一個用行政再去卡卡到這個機關的責任的部分所以真的用行政院來當作主管機關適宜嗎目前有這樣子一個"},{"start":5283.61,"end":5311.126,"text":"例子嗎在各個法條當中會不會又出現到像我們出現到內政部有這個對在管原住民新住民的基本法當中當然沒有說他是新住民的是在內政部裡面但是他也涉及到好多的很多的領域啊可是我們就把他的那個主管機關就放到內政部啊那新住民這邊也有時候到農業啊社會到也會到這個教育部嘛在國科會啊什麼等等啊都有啊可是才不是放在內政部下面好"},{"start":5312.006,"end":5328.256,"text":"就這樣子所以我想說這邊如果有例子的話是可以呈現完就可以不然我們假如是速發不可能是比較適宜的我知道好 謝謝謝謝劉淑檳委員發言那其實大家大致上已經慢慢慢慢慢慢朝向可以達成共識那民進黨團希望休息五分鐘來私底下協調一下我們先休息五分休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":5911.934,"end":5913.441,"text":"等一下 知道就好了"},{"start":6277.726,"end":6301.589,"text":"好的好的 謝謝 謝謝各位協商的幹部請坐 謝謝大家都很熱情 很踴躍的表達自己的意見但是很遺憾 始終沒有辦法達成共識所以我再宣告一下第二條我們保留現在 對不起 更正柯建銘委員 柯建銘總召要求發言 請柯總召"},{"start":6311.604,"end":6334.389,"text":"主席 各位同仁剛才很高興有機會在休息時間說大家有一些討論和共識基本的看法就是說我們都是國家法制的工作者那國家法制也有它一定的路和一定的標準所謂基本法的話就是沒有主管去管"},{"start":6335.427,"end":6354.393,"text":"那法案一定有它主管機關 這是國家法制的標準從來沒有人會去破壞這個情形那我都知道在座的每一位包括這個房間裡面每一個人 不管委員也罷行政官也罷 所有每一個人都非常關心國家煉愛產業的發展煉愛產業是國家國域的表徵"},{"start":6358.914,"end":6383.375,"text":"所以在這種情形底下我們共同的希望就是說這個法我們希望能夠好好的通過能夠讓我們AI產業就有一個基本法的存在在這裡我拜託各位大家就不要再堅持要寫主管機關了因為從來沒有這種立法例的這樣的話我們今天所有問題就迎刃而解以上報告"},{"start":6388.517,"end":6389.45,"text":"我再反映一下嘛"},{"start":6390.317,"end":6419.169,"text":"好那個陳美媛請發言好謝謝院長剛剛我們花了很多力氣跟院長也一起進行討論非常謝謝韓國瑜院長一起參與其實在科學技術基本法第十條裡面就講到國家科學技術發展計畫的訂定要參佐中央研究院科學技術相關部門產業部門相關社會團體的意見然後召開全國科學技術會議討論由行政院核定所以這也就是為什麼述發部還有國科會副主委剛剛其實是有所本的"},{"start":6419.589,"end":6435.428,"text":"跟葛如君委員報告要用行政院核定的概念那甚至我們剛剛在講到由行政院層級所召開的戰略指導委員會一直是葛如君委員要求的其實相關部門也已經同意了認為這個事情雖然有跌床架屋的嫌疑但是大家還是願意做"},{"start":6435.928,"end":6457.908,"text":"所以我想在相關基本法裡面過去的法理歷上沒有指定主管機關這件事情並不代表行政院沒有做請不要再用這樣無謂的指控我想相關AI的預算 計畫 科研 基礎建設其實大家可以看到從賴總統上任到現在一直都有在推進我相信葛如君委員也非常清楚我知道葛如君委員擔心相關科研沒有預算"},{"start":6459.73,"end":6461.772,"text":"沒有一個所謂的主管機關讓您所擔心的產業研究單位或是產業發展單位或是基礎建設單位冤有頭債有主想要找到中央主管機關給予預算支持給予政策支持的時候你很怕找不到頭"},{"start":6474.963,"end":6491.059,"text":"但是剛剛行政院跟書發部對不起國科會跟書發部也說得很清楚了相關於行政院核定的計劃再加上如果您剛剛要的所謂戰略指導委員會裡面甚至可能還有國發會角色剛才國務院長也講了本來就會有相關預算在不同的部門裡頭"},{"start":6492.08,"end":6519.53,"text":"所以我要再次強調一我們已經有一個共識就是國家戰略指導委員會會成立而在這個委員會底下把不同的部會拉進來然後行政院相關推進的政策跟預算甚至還有國發會的角色我想葛如君委員你所在意的科研預算基礎建設預算產業支持預算應該都會有所本也會有所著落以上要拜託葛委員還有劉淑冰委員的支持謝謝"},{"start":6520.691,"end":6546.187,"text":"何科進委員請發言好 謝謝院長謝謝陳培余院長那剛才何進明對不起 陳培余陳培余書記長因為這個案子真的這個案子真的對大家太重要了所以作為一個人類有時候也是會犯錯嘛那懇請大家給點見諒啦那我想為什麼我們認為這個法案一定要有頭是因為如果是無頭法案台灣的AI發展就會變成牽頭馬車啦"},{"start":6549.089,"end":6567.884,"text":"事實上剛剛柯建民總召有一直提到說行政院會來協調但事實上我們其實可以看到在這個法案推動的過程上面其實行政院從一開始說叫做AI內閣結果空中樓閣一個AI基本法一直提不出草案"},{"start":6568.484,"end":6584.907,"text":"一開始是由國科會來進行到10月份國科會是在這整個AI基本法推動上面最負責任的部會也有最完整理解的部會在去年10月準時推出結果咧在2月26號今年2月26號我們的行政院突然間大轉彎說整個AI基本法要轉給速發部來處理結果咧速發部就神隱了就不見了"},{"start":6595.029,"end":6622.96,"text":"我們一路等到7月15號還沒有等到草案進來結果我們只好在委員會裡面耗盡了數十個小時在沒有草案的情況沒有行政院版草案的情況之下非常艱難的完成了數十條的協商的共識那現在呢突然跟我們講說最好的方案就是沒有主管機關請問這樣要叫我們如何接受這樣的一個做法"},{"start":6623.3,"end":6647.865,"text":"同时刚刚有提到基本法的体力是没有主管机关的这也完全不是事实我们的新住民基本法对我们台湾的整个社会发展最重要的一个法案之一就是有主管机关是内政部所以现在整个新住民不管是生活教育也都做得非常好因为这是发展非常快而且影响非常深的变化"},{"start":6648.365,"end":6675.09,"text":"那我想人工智慧絕對符合這樣的條件這也是為什麼我們認為要有主管機關而且這個主管機關要是對科研的發展以及軟體硬體科技跨部會的協調都有足夠能力的主管機關這也是為什麼我們認為應該是以國科會作為主管機關的一個非常重要原因謝謝那個劉書斌委您還要您發言是如果意見一致就請"},{"start":6677.943,"end":6702.69,"text":"我們還是要表達一個議場我們跟國民黨其實有一個共識是AI基本法一定要有主管機關不然的話千頭萬緒到時候沒有人負責這部分那尤其是在整個立法過程當中所呈現出來的速發部一直是在呈現一個包括在審理過程中把AI的主權我現在想說"},{"start":6706.209,"end":6731.008,"text":"但是你們就是沒有說不要影響到我們的發言這個我們想說AI現在目前的重要性是在所謂科研發展那另外的部分在AI主權這部分上面的時候就呈現出來一個有一種卡關然後就是比較有所謂的在比較有限制然後框架這個部分這樣的情況之下我們想要爭取的是說是不是在後面的部分我們在"},{"start":6731.969,"end":6756.65,"text":"在主管機關這邊我們是一定要爭取是說要有個主管機關那這一部分在表達出我們的立場之後我們可能再做一個協商我們希望馬上就可以有一些想法現在葛如君委員所提跟你前半部是一模一樣嘛就是一定要有個主管機關那他現在堅持第二部分他就是國科會來負責你現在是還沒有希望現在我們可能再做更進一步的協商也許有機會再講一下"},{"start":6760.835,"end":6766.458,"text":"我是針對剛才國務卿委員的發言我提出一些看法就教國務卿委員可能有些誤解我們並沒有新署名基本法"},{"start":6787.831,"end":6808.065,"text":"我們是新住民發展法所以主管局會是內政部發展法新住民基本法今年初已經通過了是發展法 基本法就沒有主管局會新住民發展法 你去查一下嘛新住民發展法 因為我們是主張基本法嘛"},{"start":6814.938,"end":6815.678,"text":"麻煩請國科會 請部長請國科會請準備"},{"start":6821.198,"end":6844.655,"text":"我不是法律專業我是科技專業但是依我的瞭解為什麼基本法不需要主管機關因為基本法就是放在那邊然後接下來所有作用法要由各個部會去負責去立法所以有了基本法以後行政院就可以講說由訴發部你要訂什麼樣AI相關的法案然後國科會要訂什麼樣的相關法案"},{"start":6845.135,"end":6868.92,"text":"然後衛福部需要跟AI什麼法案所以基本法是基本上它本身不是一個作用法所以不需要一個主管機關去做日常的那個運作運行我的理解是這樣子所以就是說只要是行政院它本身來負責這個分派工作就可以了以上那個好謝謝林部長的發言我們現在請那個陳副主委麻煩請"},{"start":6870.188,"end":6899.447,"text":"好 謝謝院長因為國科會這邊其實我們主要的還是針對於科研的部分那所以的確AI的科研是我們在幫忙處理就是支持老師們做研究然後推動這個AI的尖端的科技的研發那但是AI基本上真的要賺錢它還是要跟產業做結合所以如果能夠是由不列這個主管機關我們可以統合行政院所有的力量的話其實應該是會更有效率啦"},{"start":6902.793,"end":6930.872,"text":"各位在主法 阿信谢谢院长我想我做简短的发言事实上大家可以想象一个没有主管机关状态的AI发展是什么就是我们现在全民在期盼AI基本法结果一拖再拖的状态过去一下子是国科会一下子是速发部然后我们已经在立院审法案了结果速发部多次跳票不愿意把草案送进来"},{"start":6931.613,"end":6947.466,"text":"這個就是所謂的沒有主管機關的AI發展的狀態怎麼有辦法讓民眾跟產業相信這樣的狀態還可以持續呢第二點剛才所提到的各種的說法其實都非常有道理但是我還是要說"},{"start":6949.308,"end":6961.42,"text":"剛剛陳副主委所提的當然是現在的一個狀態但是在初期最需要的確實就是對科研的理解對科研的理解將會是我們在這段時間發展AI最重要的一個領頭剛剛院長也說了要有頭"},{"start":6965.104,"end":6991.899,"text":"這個如果是無頭法案那台灣的AI就會變成牽頭馬車那就會變成現在完全沒有一個重點可以跟其他國家來抗衡我們到現在還是只有一個半導體而相關的半導體還正在移動當中所以我想國科會也是這段時間最負責的在去年10月準時的提出AI基本法的草案所以最後一點我想提的是我們並不是說台灣的AI基本法就永遠由國科會來擔任主管機關"},{"start":6994.46,"end":6999.103,"text":"而是現階段需要一個主管機關而現階段最適合的主管機關是國科會那也謝謝剛才柯建民總召有提到這個新住民基本法雖然一時口誤就像我今天不小心口誤了這個頭銜"},{"start":7011.209,"end":7023.901,"text":"我想人類會犯錯那我們希望AI不要犯錯但是AI其實還正在犯錯當中所以我們需要有一個明確的主管的部會來帶領著人類跟AI一起發展這是我們的願望 謝謝謝謝 我想可以感受到葛禄君委員跟我們劉淑冰委員的熱情"},{"start":7034.655,"end":7056.869,"text":"事實上在立法院這麼多年來我們看到很多法律的制定包括環境基本法夠大了吧環境基本法裡面還要求行政院對於國家永續發展委員會要有些要求但是環境基本法它在2002年通過之後環境部是在裡面的環境基本法的第30條先有環境基本法"},{"start":7057.849,"end":7076.77,"text":"而後有環境部定在環境基本法第30條它規定行政院要設置一個專責機構來統籌各項的環境基本法的相關事宜所以如果以葛如君委員的期待先有AI基本法或許未來我們就有一個AI部這是有可能的"},{"start":7077.21,"end":7095.836,"text":"所以我是覺得大家的立法目的都是相同但是在立法的體力上有基本法由行政院來統籌而後以環境基本法為例他就催生了一個環境部說不定以後我們AI部葛國瑜還是首任部長也不一定所以我是覺得這個事情呢是可以從體力上來思考的 謝謝"},{"start":7102.278,"end":7119.135,"text":"剛才劉志明委員講的已經非常有智慧的話他說有機會這個條件是有機會就是用基本法的看法所以希望我們把握這個機會去創這個基本法就不要有主管機關了"},{"start":7124.195,"end":7152.214,"text":"我想我們暫停 因為已經發言一下差不多都在循環 容許我我現在宣告一下 既然大家意見沒有辦法達成共識我們就先保留我們送院會處理這中間還有什麼時間的時候 我們再來去我們黨團直接都可以溝通嘛 好不好好 那希望不如我再去跟葛如心委員溝通一下我們現在進入第三條葛如心委員所提案台灣民眾黨團也有提案"},{"start":7153.325,"end":7171.718,"text":"提案的委員行政院提案有31個提案的版本總共有31個提案的版本那我想先請提案委員葛國軍委員請發言是我們在第三條的部分呢其實就是對"},{"start":7176.465,"end":7191.711,"text":"我們現在這一條討論的就是人工智慧的定義事實上人工智慧的定義非常重要它到底自主運行的程度如何以及背後是不是有人在操控以及它到底是只有數位的還是只有實體的"},{"start":7192.791,"end":7211.064,"text":"那我们其实是参彩了非常多最新的设计跟思维的想法提出了一个我们认为是当前因为我们台湾的AI基本法可以说是希望后发先至所以我们现在Late Follower的状态我们反而可以看到非常多的体力正在修正"},{"start":7211.684,"end":7223.254,"text":"包含往實體前進等等所以我們提出了一個可能是全世界目前最完整也是最適合來這個發展AI的一個定義那也希望這個部會能夠參採那也希望其他的黨團能夠認同 謝謝那現在接下來陳培鈺委員請發言主席我們剛剛手上拿到這個請問這個是速發部提議的院版的修正文字嗎"},{"start":7237.116,"end":7252.18,"text":"行政院好 院版修正文字那是不是可以請各位委員確認一下跟您的版本之間的差異剛剛收到手上 請各位委員參考一下那台灣民眾黨團有寶貴意見嗎剛剛送來行政院所提的人工智慧定義的建議條文請參考"},{"start":7258.291,"end":7272.841,"text":"各位請這一點我可能要提出來跟速發部還有國客會稍微請教一下因為速發部這一次所提出來的人工智慧是指具自主運行能力之系統那我們現在知道其實AI從自動駕駛汽車來講"},{"start":7275.083,"end":7299.887,"text":"它還有分Level 0 1 2 3 4甚至有到5的那自主能力的分類分級不同那如果你是說只具自主運行能力是說全自主還是半自主是否都含瓜在內或者人型機器人現在有分Level 1全部用Tele up所謂遠距遙控跟Level 4全自主運行"},{"start":7300.347,"end":7329.489,"text":"那我想請教一下速發部現在您的定義這個只具自主運行能力是只要有就算那如果只要有就算的話那變成以前還沒有check GPT的時候我們電腦裡面也有一些建議啊自動翻譯啊是不是也算那這樣是不是又變得太廣所以這一點我希望能夠主管機關是不是可以稍微做個說明林部長麻煩您這個行政院剛剛送來版本加格吳俊偉的發言您融合一下請表達一下您寶貴的意見"},{"start":7336.075,"end":7343.672,"text":"慢慢來沒問題謝謝你林部長請就第二行第一段的第二個段落是那個"},{"start":7344.73,"end":7370.246,"text":"基本上就是因為AI它是一個不斷演化的一個技術那我們認為說具備自主能力它可能是部分是有人的參與也可能是完全是沒有人的參與或者是將來甚至有一些AI系統它自己會改善自己所以我們現在用的這個文字具備就是它有這個能力只要有這個能力我們就去做規範我們的想法是這樣子這樣子的話我們的範圍會比較彈性一點謝謝"},{"start":7375.592,"end":7401.589,"text":"各位可以接受可以接受這個部分我想我們大概理解另外我也指出一下我們的條文有一個地方也跟院版的不一樣就是我們有提到背後要有人就是我們的版本是達成人為定義的一系列目的不過確實剛剛部長也有說明未來的AI很可能也會完全沒有人自主運行我想抒發部這個條文也許在涵蓋範圍是廣的"},{"start":7402.89,"end":7417.993,"text":"但也希望未來我們有主管機關的情況我相信他就比較容易判斷到底哪一些類別的AI我們要再更多花力氣來進行這個是我們是可以接受這個建議討論 謝謝好 那個民進黨團跟台灣民眾黨團都可以接受行政這個版本以及葛珠晶委員"},{"start":7418.894,"end":7439.848,"text":"沒問題那我們第三條我們就照協商條文通過 好嗎好 謝謝行政院人工建議條文我們照協商條文通過行政院建議版本 謝謝我們進入第七條葛如君委員台灣民眾黨團都有提出我們請 一樣提案委員 葛如君委員請發言"},{"start":7449.926,"end":7478.299,"text":"請 我已經請你發言了 請好 謝謝院長那也謝謝我們今天這麼用心的有不同的黨派的同仁還有我們的相關的機關部會那這一點為什麼我們認為一定要有一個行政院的戰略委員會的原因是現在AI從2022年有CHAT GPT發展之後到現在我們可以說有非常多人對於台灣的AI發展的戰略其實還是不清楚的"},{"start":7478.459,"end":7496.584,"text":"我們唯一知道只有行政院的AI內閣從1.0變成2.0但是我們的發展方向2.0跟1.0到底差別在哪裡其實是不確定的所以我們認為這個要有一個戰略委員會把各界的豪傑從學界到產業界甚至地方都能夠納入進來"},{"start":7498.004,"end":7516.861,"text":"一起來做我們台灣下一個世代的AI戰略而事實上這樣的一個做法也是非常符合我們剛剛提到的像日本剛通過的AI促進法就成立了所謂的AI戰略本部而且是由日本首相來直接兼任部長的"},{"start":7517.802,"end":7540.624,"text":"另外南韓的部分也有成立這樣的一個發展委員會我們認為在台灣我們也是有一個類似的這樣的架構對於我們的整個戰略的發展的推進會更有共識我想這個也是我們希望能夠有一個委員會在這裡作為一個狀態去推進台灣的一個AI的發展一個非常重要的原因 謝謝"},{"start":7541.64,"end":7564.417,"text":"謝謝葛如荊委員清楚的表達意見那台灣民眾黨團有提第八條台灣民眾黨團要不要一併表達意見民進黨請準備沒有 好 請民進黨發言請柯總召這個條文我看請事務部發表一下意見應該是可以接受吧事務部發布林部長請表達意見"},{"start":7566.251,"end":7579.277,"text":"如同我們之前所表達的就是我們認為說這個戰略委員會是不一定需要的因為實在作為部會的首長我們經常都在開會我們覺得會實在是太多了"},{"start":7580.82,"end":7597.977,"text":"不過如果說那個葛委員還有國民黨黨團這邊就是堅持主張的話我們是可以接受的 謝謝民進黨團也同意也認為要設立一個如果書發部可以接受的話好不好那如果大家都同意的話我們第七條就照協商條文通過好嗎"},{"start":7599.172,"end":7627.428,"text":"陳倍昱委員請發言院長 因為他們好像之前還有保留一個附帶決議是跟第七條有關他們是 葛委員這邊的提議是說希望委員會的成員行政部門不要過半這個是不是也可以請書發部表達一下意見第七條附帶決議在第七條通過之後我們請葛主任委員附帶決議這個你要不要一併來說明一下這是柯之恩委員 謝榮介委員劉書斌委員 林沛翔委員都有簽字 請"},{"start":7629.451,"end":7653.441,"text":"謝謝院長 這個部分我想最主要的都還是說確保人工智慧戰略特別委員會呢是能夠代表各界的需求啦那這個會議上面我們的本文是說每年至少召開一次那現在這個附帶決議是希望呢每年至少召開會議兩次那我想這個部分也許可以聽聽看速發部跟國科會相關的意見 謝謝等一下 等一下 對不起"},{"start":7656.344,"end":7671.016,"text":"法條是一次嘛 你戶外協議協議兩次沒有戶外協議是超越法條的你要調整一下你自己打一下照法條啦"},{"start":7675.87,"end":7692.284,"text":"我們就附帶決議取消好不好可是主席 可是這邊有說委員會不得過辦為限職公務員這個部分可能要把它納入到一個核心或是在立法議席上面要呈現出來因為如果都是限職公務員這個附帶決議其實有兩個重點嘛一個就是這個規定它的組成是什麼"},{"start":7696.988,"end":7711.206,"text":"那第二個部分是時間嘛會議每年至少兩次所以在原來的第一個重點當中的限職公務員就是不要被應該有產業的引導性的發展等等的所以我想這個內容可能要把它放進去"},{"start":7712.523,"end":7733.985,"text":"第四行的第二個part把它刪掉 前面保留蘇阿部表示一項意見蘇阿部他的意思就 劉書斌委員的意思就是他有兩個重點一個就是代表人事第二個就是一年開兩次會他把第二個一年開兩次會這段刪掉把前面這個保留起來所有參與的人不僅限於公務員您請表達意見好嗎OK 關於這個"},{"start":7736.574,"end":7760.673,"text":"這個委員不得是不是半數以上是限職公務人員我想這個會影響到整個會議的性質如果一半以上是產業界的代表還有那個學術界的專家的話這個就是一個表述意見的一個會議那如果說參加了一半以上是公務人員的話限職公務人員的話那這個會議的結論就會通常是會去執行的"},{"start":7763.295,"end":7768.624,"text":"這個會議本身會因為這個人數限職公務人員是不是過半而他性質 我覺得認為會發生改變"},{"start":7771.099,"end":7796.642,"text":"這是一個很嚴肅的問題這是一個很嚴肅的問題我們所有的行為是國家行為所以一定要過半 公務員一定要過半否則的話 被民間在主導當然是一個 民間的 seminar 的性質而已這是一個非常嚴肅的問題蘇編委員 這個跟附帶決議的精神是有一點不一樣你能不能再思考一下"},{"start":7798.062,"end":7811.821,"text":"這邊可能要詢問葛如君委員吧因為這一部分或是當初我們有一起協商就是說這個是政策協調監督與整合的樞紐所以不需要去做這個部分的一個因為他想說一個前瞻性因為可能"},{"start":7812.742,"end":7841.005,"text":"目前的官員可能會有一些比較有一種局限性甚至是拘泥原來的這樣的一個形式的方便 行政方便但是忘了或是跟國際間的一種像現在中研院的這些中研院的部分或是說有更多的產業界是他在民間的他可能有一些這種前瞻這種的意思在那如果這部分的話我想格魯俊委員你是不是要提供一下意見因為這邊是 沒問題我來我等一下會請格魯俊委員那個陳佩玥請"},{"start":7841.946,"end":7866.279,"text":"院長我只是要問一個程序的問題因為我們之前在協商的時候後來又有院版進來那可是剛剛念的是葛如君委員的版本所以可不可以確定一下我們等一下我們剛剛說好不用保留的第七條到底是根據哪一個版本照行政院版本好 謝謝院長 謝謝可是行政院的版本是沒有列在葛如君委員所提等37位提案版本協商通過好 OK"},{"start":7869.946,"end":7883.991,"text":"那那個現在這個附帶決議各位 你沒有意見那如果沒有意見的話 劉書斌委員現在就是如果葛如君委員也不堅持我們是附帶決議我們就那就不要了好 謝謝我們附帶決議就不予通過好 謝謝我們進入18條18條一樣葛如君委員等有"},{"start":7897.892,"end":7900.759,"text":"葛珠晶委員等提案以及台灣民眾黨團18、19、20、21、23請葛珠晶委員所發言好嗎再來台灣民眾黨團請準備"},{"start":7907.574,"end":7928.387,"text":"好謝謝第18條的部分呢事實上我們看到速發部這裡所建議的條文是有提到說要做這個風險分類的框架那這個地方初期我們是初步是認同的但是我們還是認為要有協助各目的事業主管機關訂定以風險為這個相關的一個基礎的一個管理規範"},{"start":7935.111,"end":7954.831,"text":"那因為各個部會對於AI的了解不管是數位的還是實體的或許不一定一致所以我想這個目前現在看起來我們還是這個我們看到的這個建議的條文我們比較沒有特別同意速發部的這個文字上面的內容描述 謝謝"},{"start":7970.672,"end":7994.031,"text":"不好意思 院長我補充說明不好意思 剛剛文件版本上面還是有點不一樣我現在拿到最新的版本因為我們這個人類的速度要趕上AI所以我們剛剛也用最快的速度跟速發部有稍微討論過了文字細節我們剛剛講的是文字細節我們比較難與同意但是現在已經有一個新的版本文字細節我們是認同的"},{"start":7994.671,"end":8005.286,"text":"就是數位發展部應參考國際標準或規範推動與國際界階之人工智慧風險分類框架並應協助各目的事業主管機關訂定以風險為基礎之層級管理規範"},{"start":8010.573,"end":8028.266,"text":"各目的事業主管機關英式人工智慧應用那後面文字是一樣的不過前面這個是之層級管理還是分類管理這個前面有分類後面有分層級這一點可能速發部要稍微說明一下因為這樣文字上可能又會不一致囉"},{"start":8028.906,"end":8045.117,"text":"因為現在國際是從分級又改回分類了就categorize可是您現在的這個文字是前面是用分類後面用分層還有分級這個又有layer又有這個不同的這個這是不是文字上我們還要再再"},{"start":8046.478,"end":8067.322,"text":"細琢一下沒有 那您具體的建議是什麼不用客氣你覺得我具體建議是如果都用分類就都用分類吧是不是不要用層級了是不是給書報部回答一下書報部您看看這個葛孟靜委員一直說前面是分類框架後面是不是用分類管理讓它前後一致我們就把那個層級那兩個字拿掉好不好好 就拿掉那兩個字OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":8070.782,"end":8090.898,"text":"就是把後面那段你補充這個乘幾兩個字刪掉對 把乘幾兩個字刪掉好 那這個風險分類建議條文大家在手上都非常清楚了就是把第二行它所增加的部分的倒數第六個字乘幾兩個字刪掉其他都不變好 OK可以嗎可以好 如果沒有"},{"start":8093.051,"end":8112.67,"text":"不好意思 院長他這一個的一二三四第四行有成績要改要不要就一起改一下那這個第四行還有一個成績是不是咱們也把它拿掉我們再找 還有沒有成績再找一下成績就在你心中了"},{"start":8115.99,"end":8134.736,"text":"好 我們修正一下我們第一行不變第二行倒數第六個字的層級我們把它取消掉 劃掉第四行訂定以風險為基礎之管理規範這是吧那其他都不變再請教一下各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有好 謝謝"},{"start":8152.645,"end":8176.514,"text":"剩下這個民眾黨團他們本來有問責跟罰則剛剛看起來他是說不堅持那那個林部長我們現在院版的第10條是包括在18條裡面請看一下院版有第9條第10條是 我們那個原來第10條我們就不堅持好的 好 謝謝"},{"start":8183.8,"end":8193.93,"text":"好 我們第18條就照協商條文通過行政院的建議條文好 謝謝大家我們進入台灣民眾黨團所提的第33條至第39條請台灣民眾黨團請發言"},{"start":8201.49,"end":8216.106,"text":"這邊說起來就因為我們當初的版本是用作用法所以我們把明確的問責機制跟罰則就列得很清楚我們還是有我在講的原因是他必須要呈現說"},{"start":8219.049,"end":8239.82,"text":"在現在的情況之下因為作用法嘛那當然問責機制就會有發責不過因為現在是基本法性質我們想這一個部分希望說他的一個問責的部分應該現在有一個框架出來問責機制後面就會運用到的就就沒有清楚了不堅持"},{"start":8244.023,"end":8250.69,"text":"謝謝 謝謝劉淑冰委員的發言我們台灣民眾黨團所提的第33條至39條我們就不予採納好 謝謝"},{"start":8261.636,"end":8273.832,"text":"我們進入最後面的尾聲我們進入第19條有行政院提案等28個提案版本也葛珠君委員所提案台灣民眾黨團都有提案我們請提案委員 葛珠君委員請發言"},{"start":8282.335,"end":8301.288,"text":"好 謝謝院長 這個部分其實在講的就是相關的法規條式因為我們都一直說台灣是科技之島 然後行政院也多次表達它是AI內閣但事實上看到我們現在有非常多的法令對於AI的發展是相對不友善的包含我們講的這個FSD 自動駕駛車子"},{"start":8304.39,"end":8332.47,"text":"这个车子里面的晶片都是台湾做的都是台湾的工程师的心血那现在在韩国已经上路日本即将在明年初上路结果台湾没有办法上路所以我们有相当多的法规对于AI是相对的不够前瞻所以我们就希望有AI基本法通过以后就像一个我们AI发展的北极星那政府呢要赶快来确认有没有与之汉格跟这个发展方向有汉格"},{"start":8332.91,"end":8357.52,"text":"或者甚至是阻礙发展的法条尤其近来美国也订定了AI action plan所以在AI行动方案之下也是往要去做法规的集合调试来做这样的一个方向我们看到行政院有认同这样的一个做法不过时间拉的比较长我们在委员会讨论的时候我本来本席是坚持一年"},{"start":8358.18,"end":8381.439,"text":"那行政院是三年那我們是希望說是不是能夠就兩年因為AI真的發展太快了這個從2023到現在兩年已經天翻地覆了我們沒有再更多的三年可以進行我們希望能夠再更短一點讓政府能夠高速運轉起來這個真正的AI內閣展現實力 謝謝來 行政院表示一下 兩人怎麼樣"},{"start":8383.206,"end":8408.613,"text":"那個林部長請沒有問題沒有問題可以接受台灣民眾黨團有寶貴意見嗎我們也是堅持就兩年應該縮短陳培文有意見嗎沒有沒有好謝謝兩年改了兩年嗎我們就是照葛如軍委員所提的協商"},{"start":8410.709,"end":8412.41,"text":"37位协商条文通过好第19条"},{"start":8416.468,"end":8441.93,"text":"院長因為他們剛剛那個速發佈發下來有一個院版新增的強化可信度的建議條文可信任度這個你們可不可以請速發佈說明一下就是沒有在協商版本裡面是剛剛速發佈送出來的建議可信任度的建議條文有嗎沒有在協商版本裡面怎麼討論沒關係因為他們那個剛才已經講過那個地方我們不堅持他不堅持速發佈院版第10條但沒有要堅持好OK謝謝"},{"start":8461.005,"end":8473.369,"text":"這個第18條有第5條協商條文第一項所列的情勢要依法令限制或禁止之要跟大家討論一下大家有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":8477.25,"end":8503.889,"text":"我們就是第18條 跟這行政院所提的風險分類建議條文好不好 這就拿了取消掉了 好嗎對對對 好 我們就取消掉了我宣告一下 好要問那幾個字 取消掉 對對 刪掉了 刪掉了 我剛已經宣告了好 請放心"},{"start":8523.418,"end":8537.207,"text":"好 我們現在來請宣讀一下確認一下是 報告院長報告院長有關於法規調適的那個文字"},{"start":8538.109,"end":8559.28,"text":"那個法規條室的那個條文裡面有一個中央目的事業主管機關在最後一段最後一段在這個中央目的主管機關接同中央主管機關這本的25頁第19條保留然後第二行第二行的那個版本"},{"start":8560.22,"end":8573.966,"text":"然後倒數第二行有一個由中央目的事業主管機關會商中央數位發展主管機關如果第二條主管機關暫時保留這個地方的文字是不是也應該要先是病毒保留"},{"start":8647.461,"end":8667.312,"text":"這個影響太大 這個法庭不會啦 葛君瑋很棒送人玫瑰 手留餘香 非常棒你要鼓勵一下接玫瑰的人一起施肥 好不好對 你那個送人玫瑰 你那個玫瑰"},{"start":8669.684,"end":8672.067,"text":"這個AI的土壤是三黨一起努力的好不好 謝謝"},{"start":8738.496,"end":8753.849,"text":"各位黨團幹部請稍安勿躁讓我來宣告一下協商結論時間114年12月4號星期四下午2點半我們協商的主題行政院函請審議人工智慧基本法案"},{"start":8755.35,"end":8782.404,"text":"葛禄君委員等37位 邱若驊等17位羅廷惠等17位 萬美玲等18位徐珍等20位 張家俊等21位林倩琪等23位 邱毅英等20位吳宗憲等17位賴世寶等28位 楊瓊英等26位分別凝聚人工智慧基本法草案台灣民眾黨團凝聚人工智慧發展及管理條例草案"},{"start":8783.908,"end":8800.548,"text":"許智傑等27位林怡瑾等26位張雅琳等18位謝依鳳等17位陳秀寶等25位林思明等17位范雲等18位分別凝聚人工智慧基本法草案等19案3"},{"start":8802.751,"end":8828.85,"text":"廖偉祥等19位 凝聚人工智慧基本法草案4.徐巧欣等16位 凝聚人工智慧基本法草案5.王美惠委員等18位 凝聚人工智慧基本法草案6.郭玉琴委員等19位 凝聚人工智慧基本法草案7.吳佩奕委員等23位 凝聚人工智慧基本法草案"},{"start":8831.012,"end":8845.727,"text":"8.賴銳龍等20位凝聚人工智慧基本法草案9.林月琴等28位凝聚人工智慧基本法草案10.徐富奎等16位委員凝聚人工智慧基本法草案"},{"start":8848.579,"end":8871.349,"text":"11.黃捷等17位委員凝聚《人工智慧基本法》草案12.陳金威委員等21位凝聚《人工智慧基本法》草案13.邱振軍等22位凝聚《人工智慧基本法》草案14.葉元芝等18位凝聚《人工智慧基本法》草案我們協商結論一"},{"start":8873.35,"end":8885.636,"text":"協商通過條文函8月21日黨團協商結果通過如後赴二保留條文送請院會處理第二條第19條三"},{"start":8888.337,"end":8891.24,"text":"不予採納條文 提案第33條至第39條其餘照審查通過保留條文願會進行處理時廣泛討論 由台灣民眾黨團推派一位"},{"start":8909.321,"end":8931.935,"text":"民進黨團推派一位國民黨團推派一位每位委員發言時間三分鐘逐條討論時我們不再發言依序進行各條文黨團版本之處理請問各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有好 謝謝我們就請協商代表簽字"},{"start":8954.167,"end":8970.896,"text":"謝謝 謝謝各位今天列席的官員 非常感謝大家我們進入第四案 114年度附屬單位遇上案我們今天只處理營業部分謝謝今天列席的各位官員 謝謝 謝謝大家"},{"start":9024.005,"end":9051.779,"text":"好 謝謝我們今天協商代表我們經濟部拱部長請坐總理好 謝謝經濟部拱部長 列席官員我們第二位台堂的吳董事長董事長嗎 吳董事長 台堂"},{"start":9056.018,"end":9079.759,"text":"台灣中油的方董事長 請坐台灣電力公司王總經理 歡迎您請坐台灣自來水李董事長 歡迎您請坐台塘的吳董事長到了嗎好 請坐好 各位黨團幹部我們現在開始進入經濟部主管的台塘我們第一案"},{"start":9082.308,"end":9104.818,"text":"產銷營運勞工安全衛生國民黨黨團提案現在改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見好 我們通過進入第二案台灣民眾黨團所提凍結50%國務部長請表達意見好嗎是 報告主席因為我們這筆錢"},{"start":9108.433,"end":9129.46,"text":"我們已經執行了大概900多萬了那預估到年底還要執行在總共1200多萬所以凍結掉將近800萬這個等於就是已經超過了所以有沒有可能如果要凍結是不是凍結少一點比如說凍結300萬這樣子或者是我們"},{"start":9135.357,"end":9141.805,"text":"台灣民眾黨團張祺凱副總召請發言這我們黨團非常堅持那就送到院會處理啦對 我們也沒辦法他現在已經動資了800在動資了900目前1500已經動資了900 剩600多"},{"start":9157.051,"end":9183.039,"text":"而且到年底可能還要用三百就是可能要支出一千兩百一千兩百多這樣子沒關係就到議會處理啦送到議會處理老公案前衛生了你有沒有改組決議而且這個前任的吳董事長這個我們也已經我懂 我懂部長的 柯總召請發言是不是改組決議就好了嘛"},{"start":9186.247,"end":9188.01,"text":"莊旗開會委員明天黨團第一該主席這我們黨團討論過啦這我們黨團討論過"},{"start":9197.219,"end":9225.627,"text":"那我們就第二輪再協商好不好 好不好好 謝謝 我們進入第三案我們第二 保留到第二輪那個固定資產建設改組 國民黨團所提的改組決議大家有沒有意見 沒有意見 我們通過第四國民黨團的組決議 沒通過我們進入中油公司國民黨團所提議的改組決議公安環保及衛生 大家有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過"},{"start":9226.917,"end":9255.202,"text":"第六案國民黨團所提議的公安環保及衛生改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過我們進入第七第七案組決議國民黨團陳昌明的組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過第八案陳昌明委員所提的組決議沒有意見通過第九案邱若驊委員的文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有修正通過好第十案顏寬衡委員所提組決議大家有沒有意見"},{"start":9255.842,"end":9278.623,"text":"沒有沒有意見我們通過第十一案李昆成委員所提主決議有沒有意見沒有意見通過第十二案李昆成委員所提大家有沒有寶貴意見主決議沒有意見通過第十三案李昆成委員所提出主決議大家有沒有意見沒有沒有意見通過第十四案張綺凱委員所提的文字修正大家有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":9279.963,"end":9297.809,"text":"沒有沒有意見 我們修正通過我們進入台灣電力公司第15案國民黨團所提工業安全改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 我們通過第16案國民黨團游浩文所提的策案大家有沒有寶貴意見沒有"},{"start":9302.778,"end":9324.305,"text":"我們就測案了 我們進入第17案李彥秀委員所提的改組決議大家有沒有寶貴意見沒有意見 我們就改組決議台灣民眾黨團第18案所提 簡列1000萬我們請台電說明我們同意好 經濟部台電同意 我們簡列1000萬"},{"start":9326.38,"end":9339.172,"text":"我們進入第19案李彥秀委員所提改組決議購入電力有沒有意見 沒有意見我們就改組決議通過20案台灣民眾黨所提簡列351億8393萬9千元請經濟部說明這個案子因為"},{"start":9348.567,"end":9375.829,"text":"那當然就是想要減我們那個再生能源的部分但是再生能源編列的是1588億那因為再生能源基本上的准購事實上依法是要編列的依法要指付的那個是再生能源法案條例裡面規定的那但是我們現在執行的話通常會執行到九成所以"},{"start":9376.892,"end":9400.707,"text":"我們可以同意說是簡略158億謝謝龔部長的說明提案了台灣民眾黨團經濟部提出158億151億 請問您我提供三個很重要第一個就是龔部長提的這個九成我先請你看一下113年度你的執行率是只有68.3"},{"start":9403.428,"end":9415.413,"text":"68.3 也就是編了1324億上執行只有905億有419億沒有執行不是你預定的九成喔是只有六成八所以如果減類351億"},{"start":9418.649,"end":9437.321,"text":"比原來的執行還要來得少這是第一個點第二個為什麼一定要這是要刪減這個要減類這個因為我們政府去買的歷電價格太高了我很明確跟他講114年的這個再生能源我們去買是一度電是5塊3結果賣出去賣4塊7這每賣一度電就賠了0.7塊錢還有剛剛講的"},{"start":9445.202,"end":9461.768,"text":"你的執行率又是偏低的還有一個現在還有一個分手費就是我們買了之後如果這個業者發現說現在那個價格民間業者的價格民間這個店價比較高的他還可以跟我們台電說我們分手然後給你一個比較低的錢到外面去賺比較多的錢"},{"start":9462.868,"end":9491.463,"text":"這個不合理啊所以記一剛講的這三個理由第一個你買店就已經是賠錢了你執行率也是偏低的第三個分手費給的人家說分手快樂結果業者是快樂台電不快樂我們人民也不快樂記這三點理由所以我覺得一定要砍掉減類十分之一就是原來的三千五百一十八億減類堅持減類三千五百一十一十分之一不是三百減類三百五十一億八千三百九十三萬"},{"start":9495.578,"end":9513.673,"text":"那經濟部所提的151 您不接受好 那我們本案保留到二輪再說好現在我們進入21案 國民黨團所提凍結2000 王一鳴所提出王一鳴委員現在在各位手上已經同意改組結議了大家沒意見 我們就通過我們進入22案 王一鳴"},{"start":9526.984,"end":9534.328,"text":"22案書店台灣民眾黨轉題凍結8億4768萬6千元請經濟部說明 謝謝因為現在凍結的話時間如果這個是不是併經同意後如果可以刪除我們就同意"},{"start":9547.967,"end":9556.61,"text":"我們就交報告22案是凍結8億對 如果兼職的話4768萬我們就同意三個月內來我們經濟委員會專案報告我們就同意凍結經濟部同意凍結8億那民進黨團跟國民黨團經濟部長已經表達他們的意見我們就"},{"start":9575.622,"end":9599.881,"text":"那個你要做一個文字修正就是你把併經統一這五個字要取消不行不行不行這是必要條件他不同意那我們就進入二輪好不好我們先進二輪再說好謝謝部長沒問題棋開委員沒問題我們進入二輪之後回頭還會再來的我們進入23案國民黨團黃委員所提該組決議大家沒意見沒意見我們通過24案李彥秀委員撤案好"},{"start":9600.802,"end":9628.716,"text":"第二十五案黃國昌委員凍結兩千萬付費用請經濟部說明我們同樣的道理如果那個併金同意後如果不能刪的話我們就那我們就保留到二輪好 謝謝我們進入二十六案陳超明委員改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過二十七案黃仁委員所提改組決議有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過二十八案國民黨陳超明減列五千萬元"},{"start":9630.157,"end":9648.896,"text":"那個經濟部請說明一樣啊 就是已經修正 文字修正同意以後嘛3減5千萬這個可以接受嗎好 經濟部同意我們本案減列5千萬"},{"start":9651.479,"end":9676.57,"text":"我們現在進入二十九案 顏寬恒委員的文字修正 主決議文字修正大家有沒有意見 沒有意見 修正通過三十案 李昆城委員所提的主決議有沒有意見 沒有意見 我們通過第三十一案 邱若驊委員所提的文字修正大家有沒有意見 沒有意見 我們修正通過三十二案 張祺凱委員所提的文字修正大家有沒有意見 沒有意見 沒有意見 修正通過"},{"start":9678.449,"end":9704.23,"text":"33案陳超明委員所提的修正文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有柯總長 你反應好快喔好 修正通過我們第34案張志倫委員所提的張志倫委員所提的主決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過35案林德福委員所提的主決議有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過36案王美惠委員所提的主決議有沒有意見沒有意見 通過"},{"start":9705.05,"end":9722.931,"text":"三十七案 邱若驊委員所提的文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 我們修正通過三十八案 李昆成委員所提的主決議大家有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 我們通過三十九案 顏寬恒委員所提的文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 我們修正通過好"},{"start":9724.963,"end":9737.667,"text":"好我們接下來自來水股份有限公司黃仁委員所提40案改為主決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過41案黃國昌委員所提簡列1000萬凍結1000萬請經濟部表達意見因為我們的這個主要這一筆錢是在做這個"},{"start":9747.009,"end":9770.854,"text":"電腦軟體的維護跟維修還有他的這個資安的保全資安總共是1.1億另外的1000萬是保全所以1.2億就是在做這個軟體或者是辦公室保全等等的費用跟法律的事務那個沒有什麼關係法律事務只有編50萬而已保佑"},{"start":9776.594,"end":9791.433,"text":"台灣民眾黨請表達意見我們保留到第二輪好 我們保留二輪第四十二案國民黨團黃仁委員所提改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過第四十三案台灣民眾黨團組決議沒有意見 通過"},{"start":9793.996,"end":9819.7,"text":"第44案 李昆成委員所提 主決有沒有意見沒有意見 通過第45案 李昆成委員所提的文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 修正通過第46案 王美惠委員所提 主決有沒有意見沒有沒有意見好 我們通過前兩年你要簽署幾個大概我把它算成五個保留到第二輪再處理"},{"start":9825.931,"end":9843.899,"text":"我們經濟部共五案保留進入二輪我們再協商 好嗎好 謝謝經濟部 謝謝好 謝謝我們中央銀行總裁"},{"start":9855.933,"end":9864.997,"text":"我們列席的官員中好謝謝各位已經開完會的經濟部請離開我們好不好謝謝我們現在換財政部好謝謝各位已經開完會請離場好嗎好謝謝大家"},{"start":9889.787,"end":9913.256,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝啊 謝謝我們現在中央銀行楊總裁 歡迎您財政部阮次長 歡迎您金管局彭主委 歡迎您您坐前面嘛 彭主委行政院主計總署陳主席長 歡迎好 謝謝 我們進入"},{"start":9915.819,"end":9943.028,"text":"中央銀行國民黨團羅明財委員所提的第一案主決議沒有意見我們通過第二案羅明財委員提的主決議有沒有意見沒有意見通過我們你們有意見要自己趕快舉手跟院長講我沒有 沒有意見都沒有意見主決好 我們進入第三案"},{"start":9944.127,"end":9970.291,"text":"台灣金控劉書斌委員所提簡列50萬請表達意見 台灣金控沒有意見可以接受 好 我們接受我們就第三案簡列50萬通過第四案 劉書斌委員改組決議大家沒意見 沒有意見 我們通過第五案 劉書斌委員改組決議沒有意見 我們通過第六案 劉書斌委員提文字修正大家沒意見"},{"start":9971.276,"end":9992.296,"text":"我們修正通過第七案 國民黨何董事長 土地銀行第七案我們遵照辦理好 現在我們改組決議第八 菸酒公司"},{"start":9998.932,"end":10025.288,"text":"湯董事長謝謝 湯董這麼年輕第一次看到好 謝謝好年輕我們第一台灣菸酒公司第八案黃任委員所提的改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過第九案黃任委員簡列五百萬請台灣菸酒公司財政部表達意見我們同意好 財政部同意我們簡列五百萬第十案游皓委員所提改組決議"},{"start":10026.969,"end":10047.19,"text":"各位黨團幹部有沒有意見 沒有意見 通過第十一案 邱若驊委員所提文字修正 大家有沒有意見沒有意見 我們修正通過經管會中央存保中央存保公司好 政總經理"},{"start":10051.016,"end":10072.471,"text":"請 請 請坐我們中央存保公司黃人委員所提的第12案改組決議大家沒意見 沒意見 通過第13案黃人委員所提的改組決議 有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過好 謝謝現在我們進入交通委員會謝謝彭主委 謝謝 謝謝各列席的官員 謝謝"},{"start":10089.983,"end":10103.593,"text":"好 現在進入交通 我們交通部陳部長 呃 次長 陳次長好 謝謝我們台鐵 我們鄭董事長 歡迎您請坐台灣港務公司周董事長 歡迎您"},{"start":10105.046,"end":10124.004,"text":"桃園機場楊董事長 歡迎您請坐好 各位黨團幹部我們現在進入114年度副單位交通部主管第一案黃仁委員所提改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有 通過第二 劉書斌委員所提簡列200萬 凍結600萬 將書面報告請交通部表達意見"},{"start":10130.492,"end":10156.857,"text":"我們沒有意見好 同意我們第二案檢列兩百萬 凍結六百萬還有書面報告第三案民進黨團黃國昌所提凍結兩千萬民眾黨團 台灣民眾黨團所提 黃國昌委員所提凍結兩千萬請問交通部請表達一下是 我們是不是可以建議病兒委員會來決議辦理"},{"start":10159.059,"end":10187.823,"text":"跟證 三案 四案 五案 併案處理請交通部一併表達意見是 我們三案 四案 五案呢是不是建議併委員會的決議來辦理委員會動的比較多啦對 委員會動的比較多台灣民眾黨團現在併委員會就是减 凍結五千萬而不是六千請台灣民眾黨團表達意見好嗎本來是三個案各凍結兩千萬嘛六千萬 然後現在如果是用委員會是五千啦"},{"start":10189.443,"end":10218.485,"text":"可以 可以 OK好 台灣民眾黨團接受三四五案我們共 照委員會意見凍結五千萬好 我們進入第六案 側案我們進入第七案邱若驊委員所提文字修正各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見修正通過第十八案邱若驊委員提文字修正沒有意見修正通過第九案李坤成委員所提文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有意見"},{"start":10220.011,"end":10241.112,"text":"柯總召 你的反應真的乒乓球一樣 好快喔剛剛通過AI基本法 柯總召反應越來越快了我們進入第10案 李昆城委員組決議 大家有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過第11案 李昆城文字修正 大家沒意見修正通過我們進入台灣港務公司"},{"start":10242.85,"end":10267.918,"text":"第十二案 黃仁委員提案改組決議第十三案 黃仁委員提改組決議第十四案 李昆城委員所提文字修正大家有沒有寶貴意見沒有修正通過第十五案 邱若驊委員所提文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有好 我們修正通過我們現在進入桃園國際機場第十六案 謝依鳳委員測案"},{"start":10269.554,"end":10297.73,"text":"第十七案 劉書斌委員所提改簡列五百萬元 凍結八千萬元請交通部表達意見我們沒有意見 同意好 交通部同意劉書斌委員所提簡列五百萬 凍結八千萬我們進入第十八案劉書斌委員改組決議我們通過第十九案民眾黨團黃國昌委員所提凍結兩億元請交通部表達意見"},{"start":10298.756,"end":10319.699,"text":"我們是不是可以凍結 不要凍結 然後把它改成書面報告現在交通部提出來 改為書面報告不需要凍結 請張啟凱委員表達意見我們送到議員會討論 第二輪再來進入二輪再說 好 考慮到二輪我們進入第二十案 邱若驊委員所提文字修正 大家有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":10321.26,"end":10340.964,"text":"我們修正通過好 謝謝交通部列席的各位官員謝謝陳主席長 謝謝大家我做一個宣告今天協商部分我們到此為止分議院部分我們會擇期繼續進行二輪協商二 明天早上院會九點進行報告事項處理請各黨團黨編"},{"start":10344.468,"end":10353.466,"text":"敦促所有的委員7點鐘就可以開始簽到早上7點鐘就開始簽到現在協商 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那麼今天出席的長官官員蠻多的那我這邊就是先介紹考試院的劉建興秘書長情緒部的施部長 世能階部長行政院人事行政總處的蘇俊榮人事長還有教育部的鄭英耀部長"},{"start":1948.137,"end":1967.488,"text":"好 謝謝 那麼其餘的官員我就不再一一介紹那麼應邀列席的官員名單就列入公報記錄好 那麼我們現在就進行協商那本日會議協商的主題第一個主題就是司法法制委員會報告並案審查委員賴世寶等31人"},{"start":1972.19,"end":1999.333,"text":"拟据的公务人员退休之前抚恤法第37条条文修正草案等26案那审查会是在114年的11月5日就审查完据那审查的结果就是第3条第8条第37条及附表3第38条及增订附表3之1第67条及相关修正动议均保留送院会处理那么并且决议"},{"start":2000.754,"end":2017.942,"text":"院會討論之前必須交由黨團協商另外委員廖先祥等20人委員徐巧欣等16人委員羅廷維等22人委員陳玉珍等17人及委員鄭天才等16人的提案分別經過114年11月14日"},{"start":2020.563,"end":2035.122,"text":"第十一届第四會期第九次院會及十一月二十一日第十次院會決定進附二讀與相關提案並案協商那以上共計六案會於今日一起並案協商"},{"start":2038.387,"end":2056.385,"text":"協商開始時,請參閱協商條文的對照表、審查報告以及進付二讀提案的關係文書。與會委員如果有修正動議或是機關有建議的內容,都請提出書面,印發現場進行討論。"},{"start":2063.032,"end":2071.443,"text":"好 那麼我現在再介紹幾位到場的委員有吳思瑤委員 郭玉琴委員還有范雲委員好 那我們現在就請各黨團代表表示意見"},{"start":2083.925,"end":2110.584,"text":"因為今天到場的委員對不起 我再把後續的因為今天到場的委員比較多所以本席這邊希望就是由各黨團輪流發言那麼原則上還是每位黨團委員代表就是三分鐘然後我們再試現場的時間再做安排然後可以進行多輪次的發言好 那麼現在看看有沒有哪位黨團代表首先先發言"},{"start":2112.645,"end":2134.856,"text":"沒有 現在是先針對公務人員退休撫恤法先針對第一個主題來進行討論好 那我們就先從第三條開始第三條有委員張志倫的十九人提案"},{"start":2135.814,"end":2152.115,"text":"主席我建議是這樣子因為黨團都有代表來那是不是我們就廣泛先大體的發言完那如果主條有什麼意見我們再來因為剛剛已經做了規則了嘛那當然本黨團比較關心人數比較多那如果時間允許我們再盡量讓委員可以充分表達謝謝主席"},{"start":2152.905,"end":2174.052,"text":"所以我建議說是不是先大體嗎先大體討論因為其實之前有大體討論本來想說是不是直接就進入到主條那既然這樣的話我們就先進行第一輪的大體討論好了首先先請看哪一位黨團代表要先發言那就請吳思耀委員先發言"},{"start":2176.28,"end":2184.57,"text":"謝謝主席這一次的公教的年改我們在上個月我們透過委員會各一天的時間"},{"start":2185.441,"end":2208.657,"text":"就將條文送出只用一天的時間2017年我們討論年改社會是用了一整年的時間來彙聚社會的共識那非常遺憾改革喊停卻只用一天的時間那也可以預期今天的黨團協商也許用一個小時或是一個上午的時間可能又是過水了我並不清楚但是總整來講"},{"start":2209.978,"end":2225.364,"text":"這一次的年改走回頭路造成三大不公第一大不公重退休輕現職造成現職的年輕世代的公務同仁可能領不到退休金第二大不公呢是重公教來輕了勞工"},{"start":2226.664,"end":2247.498,"text":"老農或是國保年金的這些保護那造成跨行業間的不平等被剝奪感是加劇的第三個不公就是如果年金現在有2.96兆的潛在債務負責任的政黨跟國會應當是想方設法來彌平縮缺口而不是來擴大缺口"},{"start":2248.118,"end":2276.4,"text":"加速破產所以如果年金破產了造成用全民被迫用全民的納稅錢來買單來支付這就是預知未來這就是透支下一代這就是債留子孫所以扣合著這三大不公都會回應在不管是公務人員或是教職人員的兩個法案上因為條文基本上是一樣的在野黨的委員說我們只是停下來不是走回頭路不是鬥退路但是為什麼"},{"start":2277.421,"end":2296.954,"text":"执行的如此良好又有绩效确实有效的挹注了我们退府基金而且增加它的正向投资而能够更给我们的基金的这个pool带来一个比较活水的裁员为什么好事要喊卡为什么要半途而废为什么被迫要功亏一篑"},{"start":2298.155,"end":2315.757,"text":"所以說這個為了我們都非常的肯定公教人員對於國家在職所提出來的服務跟貢獻但是我們更應當在制度的各個面向來強化對於現職公務人員的照顧這才是國家照顧我們的公教體系"},{"start":2316.818,"end":2345.754,"text":"所以這兩個法案的各幾個條文都回到同樣的核心改革不應當走回頭路不應當加速世代的不正義以及職業的不公平更要扣合一個核心的議題在野黨的委員提案者認為說現在如果你應該喊卡會造成我們退休的朋友們公交朋友們難以維持他們的基本生活所需在委員會的時候我已經多次的論述了不管是衛福部的"},{"start":2346.594,"end":2373.942,"text":"各個縣市的最低生活費最高的是每人兩萬在台北市也不管是主計總署所公布的一口之家到四口之家平均每位的所需生活的支出落在兩萬五到三萬六之間最高是一口之家平均的這個生活需求可能需要到三萬以上但是對應於現在的年改平均的公務人員每個月"},{"start":2374.502,"end":2393.536,"text":"平均可以領50656教育人員平均可領57973都高於現在的各個世代的現役人員他們所領有的現在的薪水你難以說他就沒有辦法去負荷他的基本生活所需所以我們再一次說"},{"start":2394.697,"end":2420.866,"text":"請在野黨委員切莫不要再很粗率的認為說他不過是提早四年破產不是提早四十年我想用這樣的態度來面對世代正義的議題是不負責任的我們也希望在野黨的委員真的不要一再的去錯置了整個公務體系我們應當優先照顧現職人員的這個政策核心所以呢我們讓年輕"},{"start":2422.426,"end":2434.012,"text":"不破產讓世代有正義我們希望大家能夠三思後行這幾個議案這幾個條文民進黨團我們都沒有辦法接受我們要為下一代來發聲好 謝謝那我再補充介紹到場的委員有鄭天才委員莊瑞雄委員還有張雅玲委員好 那接下來請"},{"start":2450.363,"end":2469.461,"text":"國民黨委員 羅志強委員發言我每次聽到我們無時要委員講到公教的問題一直在強調什麼叫重退休輕債值我覺得要講到現在債值的公教人員不會退休一樣"},{"start":2470.714,"end":2498.345,"text":"民進黨下來喜歡操作各種的對立啦但是說真的你這種對立的操作法你是把在職的公教人員都當成笨蛋還是傻瓜基本上所有在職的公教人員當初在選擇報考公務員或教員的時候他考量的除了在職的薪水以外就是國家可以給他什麼樣的退休保障啊"},{"start":2499.531,"end":2525.24,"text":"怎麼會有人跟我講說 今天比如說吳仕堯今天假如說你突然想要補補你的眼睛吃個補品 然後補你的眼睛那你跟我講說 不行啊我的兩隻腳會抗議我的眼睛被補到啊公教就是一個整體退休跟在職都要人生的一部分這什麼荒謬的理論你要拿出來你要講別的東西我覺得也有些道理可以討論"},{"start":2526.67,"end":2553.989,"text":"在這邊要去做債值跟退休的對立你起碼邏輯要學得好一點吧邏輯不是要學得好一點嗎難道債值的人員不會退休在第二個我要特別強調這個問題我們討論已經非常久了非常久了今天我們並不是要回到2018年以前的所謂的年金的這個所謂版本"},{"start":2555.291,"end":2582.268,"text":"這些年來公教人員為了所謂的民進黨標舉的所謂的年金改革我們說過了他已經付出很大的代價了也不過卑微的拜託你停砍停砍停砍不是恢復這麼卑微的需要我覺得民進黨聽不到啊就是聽不到啊第三個更重要的是"},{"start":2583.68,"end":2604.549,"text":"民進黨今天所有的東西 假設說很棒啊今天高考普考跟十年前二十年前一樣搶破頭啊人人爭先恐後的要報考啊 錄取率個位數啊可見這個鐵飯碗大家都覺得不但是鐵飯碗可能金飯碗銀飯碗都很棒啊"},{"start":2607.082,"end":2634.98,"text":"所以你今天所有的說今天我們照顧你夠了你們公教人員不值得這麼多的照顧旁邊閃我覺得有點道理為什麼因為給你這些東西目前一直在降你的所謂的所得替代率公教人員還是報考還是滿滿的大排長龍是嗎我想請問民進黨默默良心說是嗎我們現在中華民國能夠有今天"},{"start":2636.977,"end":2663.852,"text":"包括基礎建設包括新竹科學園區包括民進黨拱手要送到美國去的台積電請問哪一個不是優秀的文官今天破話出來了今天優秀的文官執行國家政策帶引國家往未來的發展你需要的就是足夠的人才啊你要人才你告訴我說你不給待遇"},{"start":2665.233,"end":2686.485,"text":"你要人才你不給退休保障我直接告訴大家啦過去很多的文官放棄民間高薪的薪水他為什麼他也很優秀啊他到民間也許他的未來前程發展生涯待遇可能更好啊可是為什麼一來為國家服務的熱忱"},{"start":2687.861,"end":2711.03,"text":"二來他也覺得國家尊重他會給他足夠的除了債值的待遇之外 也給足夠的退休的保障所以他願意可是很抱歉今天我們看到我們的執政者對公教的這樣的態度我是為公教心寒最後我不知道今天民進黨委員我實在不太知道"},{"start":2712.472,"end":2735.851,"text":"我自己至少遇到很多在職的不管是公教警校軍人他們對在野黨這一段時間為軍公教警校來捍衛他們該有的尊嚴捍衛他們該有的待遇是非常感謝的我走在路上真的很多人來感謝啊他們只靜悄悄跟我說一句話沒辦法"},{"start":2737.97,"end":2764.702,"text":"尤其是在職的他沒辦法我們現在在職我們還在領政府的薪水民進黨執政我們點滴在心頭我們只是不講而已我們只是不講而已點滴在心頭要不要去看一看今天文官崩壞老師找不到人的灰犀牛已經瘋狂的衝向台灣如果沒有這台灰犀牛在前面衝民進黨講通通都對通通都對"},{"start":2766.448,"end":2780.305,"text":"但是事實就不是這樣所以今天這個案子我們說真的關於年金的問題我們已經討論無數次了所以我也希望我相信今天我看起來也不會有共識"},{"start":2781.929,"end":2798.018,"text":"所以如果沒有共識的話那就交給國會的新民意來決定吧那既然民進黨這麼痛恨軍公教警消那沒辦法我們只好讓支持軍公教警消的我們的在野黨扛起責任啊以上好 謝謝因為我們剛剛有說是依照那個政黨輪流然後接下來請張委員發言"},{"start":2808.43,"end":2837.226,"text":"不要再犧牲勞苦功高的公教人員不要再製造對立了剛聽民進黨的發言老蔣覺得是難過的我先提醒一個現在不單純是公教人員的問題大家已經明顯地看得到了現在大家不考公務員不當老師不當老師優秀人才沒有進到教育體系影響不就是我們小孩跟整體的教育嗎今天教育部長在現場"},{"start":2839.551,"end":2852.264,"text":"公教的投考的人數急速的下降影響到我們的公共政策甚至這已經是個國安的問題了現在更嚴重的民進黨一直在強調說會破產 用破產來騙人 嚇人事實上怎麼可能會有破產的問題呢"},{"start":2863.649,"end":2885.881,"text":"破產不會發生 不能發生也不可能發生因為我們的法例上面就是明定政府有撥補的責任 請大家看公務人員退休輔系基金管理條例的第八條裡面明定如果基金不足額租付的時候應該由基金檢討調整繳費的費率就是本來是12%"},{"start":2890.743,"end":2900.13,"text":"本來是12%現在已經調到了15%有調另外後面那句話叫什麼或者由政府撥補補助並由政府負最後的支付責任勞保不就是這樣嗎請問公教政府補助了嗎第二個請大家看"},{"start":2909.946,"end":2935.791,"text":"公務人員退休之前撫恤法第七條就是我們今天要修的裡面也寫了啊由政府負最後的支付保證責任請問法律寫得明明白白為什麼一直嚇嚇人騙人說是會破產啊所以只要第一個政府依法行政依照剛剛我念的這個條文"},{"start":2937.844,"end":2964.195,"text":"要撥補包括剛剛講的匯率你都調升了你現在從12%調到15%那他稅高可以再調18%調到18那沒有調這個支付公教人員付35%政府付65%對不對你沒有依法調那你政府把錢省下來你又不撥補到第一個所以說第一個要求依法要撥補我們是一個法治社會請不要犧牲我們公教人員這是一個依法第二個"},{"start":2965.796,"end":2982.347,"text":"我們就比照勞工勞工在最近這三年每一年都撥補了1300億元所以我一直要呼喊當勞動部長講撥補也是種改革每年非常積極的去爭取每年爭取那麼多的撥補結果呢我們的考試院呢"},{"start":2983.294,"end":3003.459,"text":"我們的教育部呢學一學勞動部好不好只要你們跟勞動部一樣該有的撥補一年1300億撥補而且公教還沒有那麼多只要足夠的撥補就沒有破產的這個問題更重要的我要提醒今天在野黨提出來的不是回到以前只是因為已經砍過頭了所以我們喊卡現在砍的這個幅度已經遠遠超過了當初主管機關考試所提出來的這個幅度了"},{"start":3012.723,"end":3029.923,"text":"過了到今年為止已經砍了三分之一就是退休公教人員因為年改到現在為止100塊錢被砍了三分之一他的退休金被砍了三分之一可以停了吧為什麼要一直犧牲他們呢明明政府依法要撥補勞工也撥補了"},{"start":3032.206,"end":3053.092,"text":"為什麼公教人員不撥補呢而且造成了後遺症那麼大所以為了世代的共榮職業的這個平等我們今天非常明確的呼籲請不要再犧牲我們的公教人員不要再犧牲我們的教育品質不要再犧牲我們的小孩不要再犧牲國安更重要的還給公教人員一個公道可以喊卡了好 接下來我們進行第二輪先請范雲委員發言好 謝謝"},{"start":3063.123,"end":3080.114,"text":"剛剛國民黨委員跟民眾黨委員口口聲聲不要犧牲教育的品質我們在場這邊非常多教育文化委員會的委員以我自己為例我們一直在爭取現在剛剛有委員講到說好像教師報考的不佳"},{"start":3080.834,"end":3084.097,"text":"我們一直在爭取的是現職教師增加薪資還有另外一個減輕不當的長久累積下來的不當的工作的負擔包含行政負擔等如果要問就是說質詢的次數我想我們在場"},{"start":3099.031,"end":3124.052,"text":"任何一位委員連這個不是教文的宗嘉斌委員我都聽到他在總質詢希望教育部長 正部長在場增加現職教師的薪水正部長也非常的支持他也有承諾在精算財政跟評估中我聽到的是很快的就希望能夠給大家一個據說這是正面的方向是同意的"},{"start":3124.392,"end":3153.621,"text":"所以請不要拿好像民進黨的委員不關心教育我想這是我們在座的包含陳培宇跟吳思耀委員之前也都是在教育文化委員會中現在也常常回來為教師的權益薪水爭取誰更關心教育的品質教師的權益我想這非常的清楚只要能夠去看看大家質詢的內容就知道了"},{"start":3154.962,"end":3169.453,"text":"剛剛民眾黨的委員說我聽到都快傻眼了沒有破產的問題我們是不是活在同一個社會裡還是大家平常都讀不同的資料還是有人根本連資料都不讀我不知道"},{"start":3170.214,"end":3185.362,"text":"泰府基金當然會用完也因為這樣馬英九前總統到現在都還看到他當年說要改後來怕流失選票不改 改所以蔡總統的勇敢的年代年改就是透過"},{"start":3186.903,"end":3212.611,"text":"限职者增加提拨以退新退者减少预退的方式才能把退府基金用完的年度从民国120年延伸到138年用缓降的方式回补基金确保年金永续那个是讨论了刚刚吴斯耀委员讲了一整年我们都还记得当时我还不是立委还有全国的巡回的讨论"},{"start":3213.571,"end":3236.324,"text":"國民黨的版本只討論一天停降退休所得的替代率它造成的問題當然就是大額的財務缺口這個大額的財務缺口無法滿足龐大公教人員的月退所得需求如果靠稅收無法滿足的話事實上它就會出現一個世代正義還有社會內部正義的問題"},{"start":3241.327,"end":3248.7,"text":"剛剛吳思瑤講的重退休輕限職就是我們所說的這個其實就是讓退福基金加速破產"},{"start":3250.083,"end":3273.595,"text":"加速破產是真問題如果剛剛認為不破產的是因為要靠政府的稅收來補的話我們要跟大家報告你去看一下數字各大退休基金都有缺口每年是千億的速度虧損也只有少繳多領這個原因就是誰造成的大家可以去研究歷史就是過去少繳多領的退休基金的制度"},{"start":3274.355,"end":3293.291,"text":"所以未來如果我們要靠全民稅收的一成甚至兩成來補退休基金或甚至稅收不好的時候現在是剛好稅收好你覺得好像問題不大所以說不好的時候不就是要加稅嗎那如果全民加稅那最後你們爭取的是只有"},{"start":3294.332,"end":3316.793,"text":"公教退休人員國民年金裡面有非常高的比例都是退休的家庭主婦事實上年金是少得可憐農民勞工為什麼沒有幫他爭取如果都要全面爭取的話請問你是要支持加稅還是等等"},{"start":3317.313,"end":3338.318,"text":"所以你反而你在這個時間點上你獨獨就是只為退休的公教人員爭取的話他真的是嚴重造成社會內部的不正義所以部門對立不是我們民進黨委員的我們並沒有做這樣的事情是你們在獨會這個部分那再回來講為教師爭取權益現職的教師減少不當的工作負擔是"},{"start":3344.139,"end":3367.806,"text":"我們這些教文委員監督教育部部長也一直在上任以來在努力的內容好 謝謝那接下來請曾天才委員發言好 主席好 各位委員還有我們各機關的長官第一個大家都喜歡引用馬英九總統"},{"start":3369.42,"end":3397.878,"text":"馬英九總統雖然說他確實有說要年金改革並不是要支持現在在106年開始審查所完成通過的這些他不是支持這個好 大家也提到蔡英文總統蔡英文總統確實執行了年金改革而且非常重視的"},{"start":3399.571,"end":3424.587,"text":"邀請當時的副總統陳建仁副總統召開年金改革委員會開了20次的會議找了各機關行政院考試院各專家開會開了20次20次我要特別強調"},{"start":3426.633,"end":3453.088,"text":"根據這個年金改革委員會所做成的討論行政院 考試院提出了版本考試院 行政院提出了公務人員跟教職員的草案送到立法院當時立法院在第九屆 本席那時候也在場"},{"start":3454.527,"end":3482.984,"text":"來參加這個會議審查會當時民進黨在立法院占絕對多數根本就不聽考試院行政院也不聽在野黨的立委的意見就大砍按照誰的版本段宜康委員的版本段宜康也那麼厲害嗎當然沒有厲害很簡單就大砍"},{"start":3485.39,"end":3511.74,"text":"就以考試院行政院的版本再砍就是這麼簡單就這樣通過是這樣來的我們就舉例我們就以公立學校教職員退休輔系條例來看以到今年114年來說行政院考的版本當時是71.5"},{"start":3516.452,"end":3536.289,"text":"當初通過的大砍68.5% 差了3%以明年的話 又多了0.5% 又差了3.5%這個差距 落差是這樣來的所以這個大砍是不合理的 沒有專業的"},{"start":3539.195,"end":3567.194,"text":"不是以20次總統府所召開的年金改革委員會不是是大砍是亂砍所以現在要停砍現在要停砍這是第一點第二點民進黨委員一直在跟勞工去比跟農民去比這不一樣大家要去回頭去看仔細看"},{"start":3568.598,"end":3595.266,"text":"无论是公务人员 教职员 警校每个月所缴的金额比例就不一样每个月缴 缴到基金劳工是6%以下 还不是强制的公教警校是强制的"},{"start":3597.089,"end":3623.846,"text":"農民勞工是百分之六以下而且還不是強制的你要做比較就要好好的分析做比較而不是直接就這樣亂比較包括農民也是一樣所以都有一個制度在那裡所以要從制度面去比較而不是哈朗邦的去比較"},{"start":3625.425,"end":3651.042,"text":"所以這個部分要請我們的同仁我們的立委能夠從制度面而且從整個制度當初的制度就是亂砍大砍所以我們要回到現在的停砍所以在這邊特別請大家能夠支持 以上謝謝"},{"start":3653.496,"end":3680.87,"text":"好 那接下來看請張委員要不要再一次發言還是好 那這樣的話那就請第三位是莊瑞璇委員發言好 謝謝主席還有在場在場的朋友這倒也不是砍的問題剛剛這邊在講到第九屆本席也在這個地方那個時候是在比較各國的所得替代率你如果說要談制度談制度很好"},{"start":3682.351,"end":3710.806,"text":"談制度像張基改講的他命中講的依法行政也都很好那依法行政來講的話你們那個我聽起來都層層爛掉了為什麼因為基金裡面你說不會破產你如果繳的少出去的多怎麼不會破產你說依法行政政府到最後要不要撥補當然要啊政府當然要撥補啊可是剛調完你也念得很清楚啊就不是只有撥補這一條路啊"},{"start":3712.284,"end":3714.035,"text":"所以你費率要怎麼樣去做調整"},{"start":3715.134,"end":3741.843,"text":"或者說你這個整個延後的退休給予跟這個啟資的一個年齡或者說你拉長平均的一個本分的一個計算期間調整所得替代率這個全部都算了這個都是跟政府最後撥補責任一樣都是方法都是方法所以不要再去講說不會有破產的問題只是說他這個基金裡面快用完了之後你怎麼去處理"},{"start":3743.308,"end":3768.103,"text":"那你如果知道你們抓出從中間抓出一點就是政府這個只有政府有負擔起這個責任的話會回到曾天才委員剛才提到的公教人員跟農民跟其他人是不一樣的題目也不同那甚至於比例也不同是啊如果要這樣講的話講到最後就是誰有考試誰沒有考試"},{"start":3770.182,"end":3773.444,"text":"如果基金真的有那麼多用不完的話我認為不是只有停的問題用不完嘛應該去把它增加不是只有18%要30%要50%用不完嘛可是呢你如果講說因為提撥的比例不同各個行業比有所不同的話那你就必須要去思考"},{"start":3792.13,"end":3809.268,"text":"你要去增加也可以但是增加到了是不是有相對的去讓不同類別的人他必須要負擔更重的一個義務我們為什麼要去講說你今天這樣150萬的人領國民年金的人平均是3996要讓退休的人領得很爽好不好很好啊"},{"start":3815.447,"end":3835.183,"text":"你去捍衛他的權利我也知道捍衛他們的權利那看到你會謝謝會很開心啊但我們不是要砍誰我們是說這個制度這個年金你這樣繼續下去你會破產的時候你有什麼樣的一個解方我看在黨的朋友你也沒有去把整個制度弄清楚啊你如果從2012年以後的那個新基金的現在沒有這個問題啊我們現在在解決的是什麼你80年以前那個基金我們現在解決的是這個不是新的"},{"start":3845.575,"end":3855.762,"text":"那變成112年前面的這個部分五十幾歲的 六十幾歲還沒退休的就變成說在職者確實是養退休者會啊 會產生這樣的一個狀況我們在解決的是這一塊不是新的112年以後的那又是新的一個水庫所以我一直這樣想就是說選擇代入民間或者選擇當文官那都是一個選擇你說要講貢獻文官當然有貢獻"},{"start":3874.875,"end":3900.012,"text":"各行各業的人全部都有貢獻啊我們老伯的政產,我們老母的政產捨得這麼多年,他們對這個國家、對這個社會也都有貢獻啊怎麼會沒有貢獻那所以我就認為說大家既然要談制度的話那大家就來講清楚啦也就是說其實你說講前朝小英總統改革就改革前朝嘛前朝也不只有改革你國民黨啊"},{"start":3901.604,"end":3905.568,"text":"前朝是在講說過去的政府啊 民進黨阿扁政府也執政了8年啊我們改革的是針對這個制度啊 倒不是說改革國民黨怎麼樣怎麼樣 倒也不是是說這個基金快破產了 不管前面是經過幾個朝代沒有去做好的 各個政府都認為說到最後會破產那你怎麼辦 所以你去回顧當年 你說工人與你真正退休制度不足的年代是在哪裡 是2019年啊"},{"start":3928.1,"end":3937.715,"text":"那是因為已經看到說他已經基金不足了所以要去做一個改革啊你說那當初在想說基金會用完是什麼時候2031年我們現在改革就是說都沒事了嗎也不會就變成延後"},{"start":3942.423,"end":3949.448,"text":"只是延後而已 它變成到2049年那教育人員的部分 當初是想說不夠啊2018年 基金用完是2029年 改革後以後要變到2045年 只是讓它去延後而已這也要好好知道 要好好在後面經濟還會好政府才有錢去撥補那也不是只有到了後面的基金也不是只有政府撥補的責任"},{"start":3967.113,"end":3988.03,"text":"也是第一個政府要負撥補的責任但這個過程裡面你這個所得替代率是不是太高了或者說你這個費率要不要去做一個調整了這些都是方法之一那張季蓋文你又提到說就是一行而已就是政府撥補 簡單 政府撥補如果政府去框一個基金說這跟全部人都沒關係這是公務人員去賺來的我都沒有意見 把它調好管也好"},{"start":3994.755,"end":3998.577,"text":"人家他自己的錢 50% 60%都給你捏得好快但問題就是說我們常常會比較尤其正天才委員會去比較會比較說那沒工勞工為6%而已還沒有強制工人員更高其他人沒有 是但是其他人沒有的時候他也會繳稅金他就留到要破產這個部分來所以要整體看待整個制度我不搞對立我不搞對立我們就談這個制度"},{"start":4023.803,"end":4030.229,"text":"我知道你們的想法,就說本地少一點,現在這樣,所得體量降低以後,過年沒辦法像以前這樣,好一點的生活。大家都想過很爽的舒服的生活,我也期待每一個人都可以過得很爽。但是我們現在講的不是誰爽不爽,要講誰爽不爽的話,真的會有相對剝奪感的問題嘛。因為其他人就算他沒有在公務體系,他還是國民的一份子嘛。"},{"start":4049.807,"end":4063.116,"text":"那這些錢 政府的錢就是大家的錢嘛大家都有貢獻的嘛所以呢 不要再去談要講 台灣民眾人要講的依法行政那依法行政不是只有政府撥補最後一條路是還有調整所得對待利率還有整個費率的問題還有啟資年金的一個調整我相信啦 這個到最後會沒有結論啦但是呢 大家講的喔大家話要講清楚啦不要到在超越協商的還是講那些承參爛掉我是覺得就比較沒有意義"},{"start":4079.366,"end":4102.112,"text":"可能會沒有結論我也很清楚但是大家要談就大家很火氣就不用那麼高政治性語言我純粹從整個制度上從剛剛各位所提到的政府的該作為是些什麼法律的解釋你去把大法官會議解釋再拿出來看一看嘛那是很清楚的嘛好不好 謝謝"},{"start":4104.073,"end":4110.14,"text":"使用啊 比較理性的啦我覺得使用啊 很好啊回到 沒有錯啦回到制度裡面先等一下好不好發現妳剛本來要我講我說先讓給他們講剛輪流的這樣不是嗎"},{"start":4116.109,"end":4134.959,"text":"是因為我們剛剛是用那個各黨團輪流的方式然後呢所以接下來應該是先請在國民黨林慶琴委員要不要發言如果說您不發言的話您不發言就請張綺凱委員那就讓給張綺凱委員發言好不好因為我們是用採對這黨團輪流的方式對其實"},{"start":4145.404,"end":4148.466,"text":"就讓張祺凱講了好不好謝謝張祺凱委員講謝謝張祺凱委員講雖然你現在回到制度面跟依法行政才能夠解決問題這樣要比較兩個一個就是職業別要平等你剛才講的所有的對公教的討論拿來勞工這邊勞工 民進黨怎麼說不會破產嘛 對不對撥補嘛"},{"start":4170.1,"end":4196.387,"text":"蛤 有啊 你們的勞動部長在這邊啊就講不會破產啊 為什麼不會破產因為依法 依法上面政府交付最後的責任嘛沒有 先做一個平等 職業平等只要用 現在公教要求的不多公教要求就是跟勞工一樣嘛該撥補 現在行政院也確實做了撥補每年一千三百億 好 OK這兩個 一個是職業的平等 這是一個第二個 水母老公要對不對"},{"start":4198.035,"end":4223.115,"text":"不破產有三個事情要做嘛法律上有三個嘛調高費率嘛 對不對一個給他撥補 一個給他挹注嘛那調高費率公教有調啊他的規定就是 任期就是12%到18%啊現在已經從12調到15了嘛對不對 有調啊我現在強調的是調高之後公教人臉負擔是多少 35耶"},{"start":4224.847,"end":4243.771,"text":"政府負擔的是65%你沒有把它調到足夠那政府省下很多錢政府是不是也要負責任所以它撥補是應該更多它沒有調 它沒有調到最高它現在調到15%政府是裡面要負擔最重的人好 那民進黨做了什麼事情民進黨竟然誤會說已經撥補了另外一個叫挹注他說有啊不是只有勞工有撥補一年1300億上次講說什麼公教已經撥補了"},{"start":4253.766,"end":4274.801,"text":"2700多億結果發現那個不是撥補那個叫挹注那是砍了人家年金改革之後的救命錢養老錢砍了2700多億這個不能誤導這個一定要講清楚所以有三個管道現在問題出在什麼地方一個撥補就是費率提高的不夠高嘛對不對 這是一個嘛第二個挹注砍的是人家的"},{"start":4276.031,"end":4292.553,"text":"養老金救命錢砍得夠多了我剛剛已經跟他講砍了三分之一還不夠多嗎還要繼續再犧牲嗎更何況職業平等勞工本來要改革後來我們目前贊成說先不改用撥補的方式那就平等所以不要再砍了藝術這一塊就是不要再砍了可是你撥補這一塊你是零"},{"start":4294.415,"end":4309.021,"text":"你最近這兩年 有一年60幾 一年100多億那個都是對薪資的喔 就是一毛錢都沒有所以我們很理性對不對所以很理性 你3塊去看所以我才講 第一個基於職業的這個平等請依照"},{"start":4310.339,"end":4327.144,"text":"依照照顧勞保跟勞工那一塊好不好該撥補的就要撥補然後第二個真的是砍的真的是太多了我建議再強調江心比心砍的三分之一還不夠多嗎而且考試院是主管機關他當初砍的幅度沒有像現在這麼多因為段怡康帶領之下民進黨一黨獨大"},{"start":4328.769,"end":4345.451,"text":"你們砍得太多了 砍到現在砍到今年 已經砍太多了 可以喊卡了不要再犧牲公教 另外我提一個很重要的點不要有對立的這個問題家裡面 誰的家裡面我們台灣那麼多的家庭裡面有勞工當然也有軍公教啊"},{"start":4346.397,"end":4372.778,"text":"第二更重要的現在我們在談的不是只有對退休的公教人員限職的不就以後也是要退休嗎所以我們是一個共融的社會我們在談的是一個世代共融而且沒有說要回到以前全部都要恢復只是砍帶頭的請喊卡為了所有台灣的教育台灣公務人員的品質這已經是國安的問題了而且不要叫我們的公教人員再犧牲了謝謝"},{"start":4375.583,"end":4398.901,"text":"好 那我們其實剛剛現在已經進行了三輪的各黨團的這輪流發言那當然我知道還有幾個委員沒有發言所以呢在這邊是不是可以這個我的建議是說是因為像剛郭玉琴委員張雅玲委員已經都舉手蠻久了所以請兩位就先發言發言完之後呢我們就直接進入到逐條因為逐條的時候我們還有時間可以發言好嗎 好不好好 那就"},{"start":4401.811,"end":4421.571,"text":"因為其實今天這樣子討論下去的話也不會有共識那我們已經進行了其實就讓我們大體大家好好的說清楚因為說實話你進到主條這些細節不管是失實日期或是所得替代率的條件我覺得也不會有共識因為大家剛剛的發言都已經針對我們剛剛講的議題我這邊剛剛已經也給大家就是進行了三輪"},{"start":4421.971,"end":4435.365,"text":"主席這不是叫做也給大家而是真的可以好好討論否則今天送出去之後到時候到院長協商也就是過水然後也沒有時間然後最後還不就是暴力表決我不認為我們是在過水我們從這個委員會的會議的安排然後到專題報告審查公聽會至於到今天的政黨協商我都盡量的給大家都有充足的時間可以發言"},{"start":4445.455,"end":4472.375,"text":"那麼因為待會還進到主條的時候還可以再來討論所以我想大體討論的部分呢就按照我剛剛的這個建議就做決定就是說等郭育琴委員張雅玲委員兩位發言完之後呢我們就直接進入到主條討論好有有有有你們剛剛已經有說過了沒有沒有主席我跟鍾嘉斌跟市長都還沒有針對大體的部分發言討論喔謝謝廣泛的部分我們都還沒有發言"},{"start":4473.115,"end":4501.306,"text":"好的那這樣的話那就是讓鍾嘉斌委員跟陳培宇委員發言完之後然後我知道就是說按照我們剛剛的順序就是郭育晴委員張雅玲委員然後鍾嘉斌委員陳培宇委員那林慶琪委員要等到主條再發言好嗎還是你要等到大體好那等到進入主條再發言那就麻煩那就先請郭育晴委員先發言"},{"start":4502.554,"end":4527.899,"text":"好 謝謝主席所有委員大家好我想這個我在10月20號跟11月6號的時候其實在聯席的會議裡面其實就講得很清楚了那替代率逐年下降其實不是政治決定而是應該是精算專業精算算過之後它是基金能夠存活下去最重要的一條安全線但是現在我們看到這條安全線要被剪斷了"},{"start":4530.319,"end":4550.207,"text":"其實在台灣各個職類的退休制度的潛藏的債務已經高達了有20兆這20兆其實就是大家的歷史工業不是只有我們這一代可能還要連我們的下一代基金能不能夠活得下去如果沒有年改這個退服基金在120年可能就會歸零"},{"start":4551.667,"end":4577.46,"text":"但現在我想這個在野黨的委員要做什麼你們要把這條安全線給剪斷那把替代率呢直接鎖死在高點不降這聽起來好像非常照顧所謂的退休的公教對不對但真正的結果是什麼第一我剛剛講基金會提前破產上一次我也講過這個停侃年金會讓公務人員的退府基金估計提前到2041年就會破產"},{"start":4579.421,"end":4606.023,"text":"另外在教育人員的退府基金會提前到2038年破產這不像剛剛這個張建凱委員說的這個不會破產因為政府我們會撥補但政府撥補到底錢從哪裡來錢是風吹來的嗎還是地上可以撿來的政府撥補的就是要從人民的納稅錢裡面要多繳我用上次我已經講過了這次我要再講一次"},{"start":4606.764,"end":4634.56,"text":"我們用現在繳稅的人口697萬人來算這個多出來 詮訊部算過 精算過後未來20年要多出4460億它不會是天上掉下來的這4460億如果用我剛剛說的繳稅人口數來算每一個人就是要多繳6萬3這6萬3我就問我上次問的更白一點我今天再用白一點"},{"start":4635.921,"end":4647.916,"text":"白話文來講你願不願意拿你多出來的繳稅的稅金去補別人的退休金你願不願意看著你自己的孩子去養別人破掉的基金"},{"start":4648.874,"end":4673.952,"text":"如果說我們在講我們沒有主張要少給而是我們要讓制度能夠長久我們要領得久我們希望年改不要走回頭路其實像主席我們之前在這個大阪我也看到您兒子在東京念書在日本念書我記得在去年的年底的時候你在臉書還PO他拿了個Team Taiwan"},{"start":4674.632,"end":4681.977,"text":"到這個球場外面拿著國旗我覺得這是我們的下一代優秀的下一代但問題是我們現在為什麼我們憑什麼我們為什麼可以把這樣子的問題丟給下一代"},{"start":4688.123,"end":4715.1,"text":"不要全民補不要年輕人來補不要下一代來補真的語重心長的講坐下來好好討論這些都是精算過後的數字這個都是有數字用科學的方式去算出來我們即將可能面對的世代的工業的問題我相信大家坐在這邊其實都希望理性討論啦不要有任何的情緒性啦再強調一次政府撥補是什麼就是全民要負責買單啦"},{"start":4716.702,"end":4718.329,"text":"就這麼簡單的一句話而已"},{"start":4721.53,"end":4745.565,"text":"好 接下來請張雅玲委員發言好 我剛剛聽到羅志強委員說他在跑學校的活動的時候有很多的老師感謝他但是我也要想補充一個資訊就是我自己在跑學校的運動會的時候也有很多現任的老師他們很擔心年金改革因為他也會擔心未來他退休的時候領不到所以我想在基於照顧所有老師"},{"start":4747.987,"end":4762.994,"text":"我想我們這一點是有共識的所以我想不同的意見都應該被呈現為什麼這些老師會擔心呢因為如果我們現在停止年改的時候根據統計我們的公務人員在134年就會用完教育人員在130年就會用完"},{"start":4773.94,"end":4802.999,"text":"所以影響的年紀呢就是會提供到會影響到就是現齡69歲公務人員然後教育人員是66歲喔也就是說現在的老師其實都是會受到影響的那我想我們就應該務實的來講除了我們教育文化委員會許多委員都一直在爭取我們現任老師的薪資還有我們在行政減量上面積極的來去協助之外我想我們也必須務實的去面對說這個可能會破產的一個問題"},{"start":4805.061,"end":4824.34,"text":"那我想還是回到剛剛大家一直不停的在講的一個點就是說不管是哪一任總統啦當時的精算報告都已經估計了如果不推動年改都會用盡我想這也都是今天朝野的共識"},{"start":4826.789,"end":4845.074,"text":"那也因為呢蔡總統開始蔡前總統開始做了一些年改所以我們才把這個公教基金的用慶年度至少往後延那同時呢剛剛這個張祺凱委員也一直不停的在講說啊這個政署本來就應該負責嘛但是我想退福基金"},{"start":4845.754,"end":4860.1,"text":"的第二條其實也有明白的說 催俯基金費用需要按本奉加一倍12%到18%的提撥費率按月由政府剝繳65%公務人員繳付35%共同負擔財務責任再加上第八條其實也有說實際提撥的費率應應定期財務精算結果來去釐定調整所以"},{"start":4872.865,"end":4888.234,"text":"大家都應該要按照第七條和第八條提撥基金費用之後基金再有不足才回到由政府負最後的支付保證責任而不是一開始就有財務缺口就要政府全權來負擔"},{"start":4890.816,"end":4910.536,"text":"我想大法官782號解釋也都有清楚的說明還是政府可以有採取其他的因應措施所以我要講的是說我們現在公教人員其實他的所得替代率是66%已經高於OECD國家的50%"},{"start":4912.418,"end":4927.746,"text":"所以如果我們真的要去照顧到所有的公教人員我們都應該要一起來支持這樣子的年感我們應該要從制度上面如何能夠保障所有的人來去努力而不是只是說可能是做偏袒的一個"},{"start":4929.707,"end":4950.203,"text":"一個規劃這樣子那同時呢我也要再強調一次如果我們所有東西都交給丟給政府我們不實質的去面對那事實上就是我們的孩子我們的下一代要去彌補這些所有的缺口也就是我們所有的納稅人辛辛苦苦賺的錢要一起來填補這個大洞要一起來買單我覺得這是對於我們所有的納稅人都不合理的"},{"start":4957.228,"end":4981.157,"text":"因為所有人都是非常努力的工作非常認真的度過每一天我們身為立法委員應該要去好好的務實的去盤點各種可能的問題然後一起來共商解決之道才是好 謝謝接下來請鍾嘉賓委員發言好 謝謝主席今天在此的立法委員包括主席在內"},{"start":4982.045,"end":4997.156,"text":"我看看有參與當年2016年啟動的年金改革就是思堯委員跟我還有瑞雄還有鄭天才委員我們這幾位呢大概都有參與到2016年的年金改革時間過了9年"},{"start":5000.031,"end":5021.946,"text":"然而到目前為止從剛剛包括我們張旗開委員的發言我們都覺得真的不要說社會對於年金改革本身的本質的了解甚至連委員當中也有些誤解首先我還是要回應一下張旗開委員今天我們審的今天要來協商的是公務人員退休之前撫恤法"},{"start":5022.85,"end":5045.949,"text":"这个公务人员退休支薪辅助法的定位跟刚刚您口口声声一直在提的你把两个条例混为一谈一个叫做劳工退休金条例简称劳退一个是劳工保险条例简称劳保劳退跟劳保就像我这里的手续牌一样"},{"start":5046.636,"end":5067.506,"text":"一个呢保险年金是劳保年金是劳工保险条例一个职业年金讲的是退休是劳工退休金条例简称劳退那么对应到我们现在讨论的公务人员他基本上呢他是对应的是公教人员保险法"},{"start":5068.266,"end":5092.049,"text":"公教人員保險法談的是保險但是今天我們協商的退休之前撫恤它是一個職業年金的概念就好比是勞工退休金條例的概念剛剛不斷的張委員錯誤援引的目前勞退基金本身就勞動部部長來說它的目前的情況是沒有問題的"},{"start":5093.07,"end":5120.204,"text":"因为劳退是由雇主跟员工他来提拨构成的个人账户所构成但是目前劳工保险或者说我们今天没有讨论的公教人员保险保险基本上是由政府主办的社会保险既然是政府主办的社会保险当然政府会负最终的责任"},{"start":5120.684,"end":5143.405,"text":"这是待无疑问所以不要把错误的劳保条例是作为一种社会保险跟公保公教人员保险一样是一种社会保险的性质政府负有最后负担财务责任混为一谈跟职业年金的所谓的公教人员退休抚恤把它混为一起退休抚恤或者是劳工的退休"},{"start":5144.326,"end":5168.088,"text":"都是一樣由從業人員在職期間他依著或者自己提撥或者雇主提撥所構成的一個預先儲存儲蓄的一個以後退休分月給付的一個概念所以本質上是自提自領自提自領勞退也是自提自領"},{"start":5169.096,"end":5184.118,"text":"那當然這裡的字題包括僱主所提就像我們說的公退也是一樣也包括了政府的提撥所以我這裡還要提醒一下剛剛錯誤援引的勞保條例當中的最終財務責任不能對應到今天的公教退府"},{"start":5184.699,"end":5203.217,"text":"那至於說公教人員保險的確有這樣子請張委員好好看一下他在第5條裡面明顯的提供本保險之財務責任屬於民國88年以前的養老給付由財政部審核撥補屬於民國88年5月31日以後的虧損"},{"start":5205.279,"end":5223.755,"text":"應調整費率挹注看到沒有連一個政府主辦的公務人員保險法當中他也很清楚地把政府的責任寫得很清楚分成兩段前面的叫做財務責任要由審核撥補財政部審核撥補後面的虧損要由調整費率來挹注"},{"start":5230.727,"end":5239.93,"text":"調撥補跟預註的法律性質在這裡做的區分如果還不是很清楚的話我再舉個例子可以看到公務人員保險法當中我們來看一看第20條"},{"start":5248.433,"end":5266.95,"text":"二十條這裡寫的說 第十七條規定的每個月可領養老年金當中由承保機關依本法審定後通知負擔財務責任之最後服務機關 學校按月資給保險人"},{"start":5269.233,"end":5287.255,"text":"這裡面的所謂的最後通知財務分擔財務責任的最後服務機構再講一次負擔財務責任的最後服務機關機構指的是什麼如果老師你從哪個學校退休是那個學校要負擔最後的財務責任"},{"start":5288.689,"end":5304.613,"text":"所以對於公務人員也好教育人員也好他的退休在退府的部分他的財務的責任他的財務責任在哪裡在保險法當中的保險的部分是由最後退休的"},{"start":5305.137,"end":5319.785,"text":"機關 學校他所領的每個月的養老給付在保險當中的養老給付才會有一個機關或學校去負擔但是如果我們現在談的公教的退休之前撫恤"},{"start":5321.025,"end":5345.011,"text":"簡稱公教退伏這個制度來講完全要資金 基金自己去承擔所以剛剛有幾位委員提到說我都說市長委員他現在不在了他在反駁烏斯加委員說什麼我們都是注重什麼在職者忽略了退休者其實因為退休者已經退休的人領太多在職的人"},{"start":5346.411,"end":5373.701,"text":"補進去的被領走了現在債值者以後退休的就沒得領了所以這不是世代的矛盾這是世代共有的一個資產如果由前面的人揮霍掉了後面的人就就沒得水喝了就這麼簡單這不是什麼世代矛盾現在的退休撫恤的錢退休的人他領的退休撫恤的錢都是包括他當年債值的時候所提領的"},{"start":5374.361,"end":5402.702,"text":"以及現在在職的人所撥進去的如果被這些退休人領掉了現在在職的人他補職再多以後領不到 情何以堪所以千萬不要把撥補跟挹注混為一談不要把社會保險的政府責任跟任何的不管職種的勞工的公務人員的教師的退休輔續這樣的職業年金混為一談社會保險的最終責任由政府承擔"},{"start":5403.803,"end":5418.368,"text":"至於各職業年金的退休撫恤由各退休撫恤的基金去共同面對以上釐清不要再混為一談年金改革推動這麼久過去不能參加現在來大放厥詞讓人家非常遺憾"},{"start":5420.489,"end":5436.334,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來請陳佩瑜委員發言好 謝謝主席其實剛剛幹事長的發言我們在上一次的時候就不斷提醒在野黨委員不要把保險跟年金的概念搞錯但是很可惜我們今天聽到你們的發言依然繼續混淆視聽接下來我要問"},{"start":5438.835,"end":5458.648,"text":"今天在內黨委員都說不是要砍回到2018年以前啦我們沒有要恢復到那個樣子那難道這樣的說法就有正當性嗎當年不管是馬英九前總統或是蔡英文前總統提出要改革都是因為年金這件事情是大家共同要面對的只是有人敢做而有人不敢做"},{"start":5459.108,"end":5466.754,"text":"至於誰做的是對的 誰做的是好的本來就是可以討論所以不敢做的總統現在在野黨委員卻要把這個開倒車開回去真的非常荒謬所以我要再次強調並不是說不要回到2018年以前就有所謂的正當性所有的世代正義都必須要一起顧及另外我要說你們一再的說叫政府依法行政 依法行政撥補的部分"},{"start":5485.868,"end":5504.763,"text":"就已經講錯了那我就要問那立法委員修法難道沒有相關依法修法的概念嗎看起來是沒有的我們在過去這一年多以來看到非常多在野黨委員的修法不管是這一次的年金或者是之前的國會擴權都已經有非常多違憲的做法但很可惜在野黨委員要繼續一直衝撞"},{"start":5506.064,"end":5523.089,"text":"非常的荒謬再來我要補充剛剛幹事長所說的關於提撥的部分我們來看一下我手上這張提撥的試算表如果按照財務預估本來不管是公務人員或者是教育人員他們的提撥都應該遠遠超過他們現在只有提撥到15%"},{"start":5527.21,"end":5556.044,"text":"如果按照市算其实是应该至少要来到40%到50%这样才有可能不破产而且必须要符合所谓的刚刚钟嘉斌应该是这样所说的必须要从年金的概念来看但是现在提拨就只有15%所以之所以会出现财务的破口就是因为长期以来都提拨不足所以请不要再去混淆所谓提拨或者是保险跟年金的概念再来我要讲"},{"start":5556.724,"end":5582.87,"text":"目前所有年金改革所做的努力有哪些我不知道在黨委員在做修法的時候有沒有看清楚第一個我們把所得替代率從75%降到60%而這是大家共同努力的結果接下來我們把提撥的費率上限增到18%而到目前為止只有到15%還有我們採取軍奉為奉額等這也是大家共同努力然後最後我要說節省的經費全數挹注給基金"},{"start":5585.951,"end":5609.879,"text":"我知道大家認為所謂節省的經費就是所謂的被砍但是我要再次強調在年金改革的路上這是大家共同承擔一起努力的結果所以如果把節省經費全數挹注給基金就惡意的指控這就是所謂的砍砍砍那我認為大家就忽略了所謂大家一起努力的結果這件事情所以我們最後看到的是政府跟在職者"},{"start":5610.279,"end":5636.982,"text":"增加提撥我要再一次強調政府也一起努力然後呢已退者跟新退者減少閱領所以我們才可以看到你們所謂在一黨委員現在所謂的財務破口可以往後延但你們現在卻要停止這個過去這幾年大家改革努力努力得來的成果你們要在這裡喊煞車我認為這是一個倒退這不只是煞車所以我想剛剛所有本黨的委員已經講得非常的清楚"},{"start":5637.362,"end":5652.329,"text":"在這一次的修法裡面我們看見是世代不公職業之間的不公而這個問題更可怕的是你們要把保險跟年金的部分混在一起談抱歉 退休的部分跟年金混在一起談更是荒謬以上 謝謝主席好 那麼我們想現在大體討論大家都都發言完一輪了那我們就進行到主條那麼首先先進行到第三條"},{"start":5666.071,"end":5686.196,"text":"看大家有沒有意見因為這個部分的話在上次已經有討論過了好 那我們就還是依照那個黨團的代表輪流的方式來發言那就先請伍思堯委員不是 等一下主席聲音一下我們是針對第三條嗎現在進入到第三條的討論了"},{"start":5688.752,"end":5717.284,"text":"好 所以先請吳思耀委員這個為什麼黨團協商在逐條討論還要依黨團我們這麼多人就要等每個黨團我們都在等著同樣的黨團同樣的委員在那邊發言這是不是建議主席從來沒有什麼逐條討論還在用黨團的這個跟韓國瑜院長主持的那個黨團的議事安排是不一樣的協商好 那這個第三條張志倫委員我們在審條文的時候就已經講了"},{"start":5718.12,"end":5740.261,"text":"不應該修也修錯地方好就簡單不應該修也修錯地方如果要修的話也修錯地方那我要回應一下就是說這個停侃年金就是讓改革公會一潰就是停在一半那要修的要喊卡的委員從頭到尾沒有去解釋一件事情那你們要拿哪裡的財源來補"},{"start":5743.447,"end":5762.246,"text":"我們財政紀律法也好預算法規範也好你要增加政府的支出那你就是要清楚來負責任告訴社會好你現在要停砍年金那麼財源在哪裡三種方式啊第一種你們凡事就是丟給國家國家補國家補"},{"start":5764.656,"end":5783.938,"text":"好像國家無論如何國家都要買單那麼你們是要犧牲了哪些社福要犧牲哪些教育要犧牲國防嗎所以國家買單也要聽聽國家政府的聲音啊到現在報告主席我們坐在這裡的考試院我們教育部行政院長官沒有人有機會發言"},{"start":5785.319,"end":5809.084,"text":"如果你是要國家來撥補國家已經告訴你預算之間買醋的錢不能拿來買醬油這句話最近很紅那你也不聽聽我們行政部門的意見考試院的意見他們就是不能夠拿全民的錢拿所有國家的預算來補這個公教的退服因為會排擠的預算是全民來買單如同郭玉璇委員說的萬老師說的每個國人要自掏腰包6.4萬"},{"start":5816.146,"end":5827.036,"text":"來補這個公教的即將破產的年金合理嗎公平嗎所以裁員之一你們講的很簡單政府撥補那你要犧牲哪一筆預算"},{"start":5828.038,"end":5846.744,"text":"你要 你就勇敢告訴人民好 國人每個人掏腰包6.4萬來補人民同不同意第二個裁員好 你就大幅的去增加調高這個費率那你們如果要停凱你們就告訴公務員啊我們因為要通過國民黨跟民眾黨的版本所以我們的費率要調高到多少"},{"start":5848.171,"end":5874.688,"text":"公教人員同意嗎你們負責任的提嘛而不是你現在就是要得這些好處然後誰來買單你不願意負責那要嘛我提供你們一個建設性的建議啊昨天你們進負二讀啊你們要讓救國團不當黨產就可以討回去啊好啊救國團有61筆土地啊有16億的現金啊你們要把黨產再拿回去黨產自己花"},{"start":5875.569,"end":5901.376,"text":"那麼好啊那人民來公決要不要用國民黨黨產來補這個洞所以負責任的裁員你要喊卡那你負責任講你裁員在哪裡是什麼讓人民來公斷因為要付出的代價是全民在扛那人民願不願意或是公教要調高保費在扛公教現職同仁願不願意你們負責任的提解方好我們很理性的再說"},{"start":5903.069,"end":5916.389,"text":"年改是民生議題不是政黨對立也不是犧牲了誰也不是要去霸凌誰更不是要去虧待誰世界各國都在做年改"},{"start":5917.372,"end":5938.33,"text":"因為環境在變因為少子化高齡化每一個國家都在面對年金改革的問題OECD國家的所得替代率平均值是50.7%台灣如果以現在2024年最新的精算我們的實值是77.8%高於OECD國家28%"},{"start":5943.206,"end":5961.064,"text":"所以世界各國都在面對這個嚴肅的課題而他們改的幅度都比台灣更大走得更快甚至在檢討年改是越來越緊縮簡單講改得越來越嚴沒有像台灣要走回頭路改到一半停下來的"},{"start":5962.465,"end":5985.457,"text":"難道這些世界各國在面對的新時代的挑戰他們都在虧待退休人員嗎他們都在犧牲退休人員嗎世界各國的朝野各黨大家都是同心協力來面對這個時代險峻的課題那為什麼在台灣就一再的把它政治化好像要犧牲誰"},{"start":5986.858,"end":5991.101,"text":"我們在做的是全民都獲益的事情因為我們真的不能讓全民的納稅錢拿來補這個特定人士的退休金最後張綺凱委員在這裡我其實覺得我真的想送一張這個給您"},{"start":6003.891,"end":6015.95,"text":"因為我們跟您講了N次您永遠這個保險金退休金搞不清楚我今天有多印幾張我真的是為您準備來的我等一下可以送給您不要傻傻分不清"},{"start":6018.823,"end":6047.491,"text":"我真的有硬心的等一下再提供給您然後呢也要請您喔因為今天黃國昌主席沒有來喔當初說砍得不夠砍得不夠多砍得不夠快的人是黃國昌委員剛剛鄭天才委員講錯了段宜康委員沒有要去調多少%段宜康委員是從15年到10年60的這個數字是當時民進黨的版本"},{"start":6049.512,"end":6073.069,"text":"當時總統府的版本行政院的版本都是60所以說我們要還原歷史剛剛鄭天才委員坐在我對面他居然可以當著我的面跟我說吳思耀你2016根本沒有在這裡當立委啊我2016我自己有沒有當立委我當然知道我是2016年當選立委我就參與了年改的那個事情我走在路上還要被李來希們拖出去打欸"},{"start":6074.41,"end":6091.965,"text":"發生在我自己身上的事情吳思堯幾年當立委都可以google一下為什麼政天才委員在說吳思堯你根本沒有參與年改你沒有資格在那邊講那對不起那如果說當年沒有參與年改的人不能參與這個議題的討論那在場多少人不能參與不是這樣嘛"},{"start":6093.326,"end":6112.137,"text":"我是當年有在所以我請大家要能夠因為剛剛我講到一半那個志強委員回來了我也準備了一張給你我也準備了一張給你好我馬上要結束了因為剛剛好最後我也準備了這張送給羅志強委員您一再說鐵飯碗不再是鐵飯碗"},{"start":6116.92,"end":6133.383,"text":"如果我們現在改下去鐵飯碗就成破飯碗這是更慘那麼這一張您一直說民進黨讓公教人員因為年改所以沒有人來報考公務員我這從上次你講這個謬論我一直在準備這張圖卡我今天要送給你當禮物"},{"start":6134.414,"end":6136.855,"text":"公教不再熱門誰知過馬英九執政的時候才是報考大衰退年改是2017上路年改以後每年1.6萬元的報告下降馬英九的時期每年銳減3萬多的從高峰到低峰"},{"start":6159.175,"end":6171.747,"text":"好 那麼我們接下來不是 因為我覺得我的提醒跟我的決定五委員都沒有尊重我想我要維持整個的會場"},{"start":6174.79,"end":6197.871,"text":"規則會場的秩序剛剛已經給五委員有超過六分鐘累計已經十分鐘的發言那麼我想今天要維持我們這個會場的秩序以及會場議場的進度那接下來的話看看是不是輪到國民黨林建琦委員這裡要發言嗎那就請"},{"start":6203.837,"end":6230.172,"text":"好 那接下來我們就請民眾黨委員發言好 請張綺凱馬總統上任時候是30萬高峰馬總統創到50萬金融風暴 連題目都不會看人家送給看到沒有 馬英九的時候好 請大家先"},{"start":6235.086,"end":6248.244,"text":"我希望我們的會議能夠繼續進行請大家先不要在這裡再繼續爭吵好那我們這樣我們就先休息五分鐘"},{"start":6254.9,"end":6276.555,"text":"好 算給你 你就好好看你就好好看我用心做給你看不是讓你隨便解讀的不是讓你 因為我會被消音我是好用你的因為江胡思堯的音孟小林不會像是志強的音請志強委員好好讀完再說志強連數字都看不懂"},{"start":6284.36,"end":6284.462,"text":"MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":6423.353,"end":6442.888,"text":"不敢看啦張欣凱連看都不敢看年紀跟退休金都搞不清楚每次都故意講錯 造謠"},{"start":6445.543,"end":6454.911,"text":"好 羅志強你好好看國際金融風暴青年失業率到高點的時候造成大家都去報考公務員那個時間"},{"start":6561.021,"end":6584.437,"text":"我們的用心這樣子來糟蹋了羅志強委員等你了換你了好來我們來等謝謝我們吳委員拿出自己打臉的數字我也是佩服他我來打臉羅志強的數字打臉羅志強的數字有自信的人不用插嘴啦你看喔 蔡英文在一人一句嘛你不要急問急答嗎"},{"start":6590.361,"end":6608.416,"text":"幾問幾答 你每次我講話你就講話在吵我你剛剛講話我又沒講你有自信一點嗎 我很有自信我自信到都替你做功課了 替你做功課了吳思瑤乖 麥克風關掉了我乖不乖不用理你你就講嘛 你就講嘛不要講不出來 你講 我等你講謝謝吳思瑤 麥克風關掉來來來 各位吳思瑤自己都講"},{"start":6616.638,"end":6639.342,"text":"在馬英九上任2008年之前對不對那個時候的公務員的報考人數大概是30到40萬因為金融風暴嘛 金融風暴造成所謂的公務人員就變得是很強少嘛關掉關掉 謝謝"},{"start":6642.119,"end":6657.073,"text":"所以出現了高峰到53萬人嘛對不對53萬人但是後來金融風暴過後之後台灣的經濟恢復常態嘛所以公務人員當你比較於外面的工作現在回到30萬的時候"},{"start":6658.334,"end":6676.761,"text":"不對啊你看斜率下降的快你也不看斜率上升的快啊奇怪了上升的快是因為馬英九之後沒有上升就往下就往下馬英九那個是在金融海嘯的時候現在我們繼續開會斜率上升的很快上升這塊是沉水貶值證奇怪了"},{"start":6677.501,"end":6688.45,"text":"奇怪了剛剛叫我講也是你們我講話一直是你們對我今天理性的澄清這麼沒有信心嗎下降的是馬英九上升的是陳水扁馬英九那時候遇到金融風暴"},{"start":6697.932,"end":6704.7,"text":"好 請各位委員回到我們會議秩序 不好意思 因為我現在已經按了消音因為我想我們就繼續會議的這個進程沒有 我全部 因為我們已經開始要繼續開會繼續開會 五分鐘休息時間已經到了 所以我們現在繼續開會"},{"start":6716.434,"end":6720.836,"text":"因為剛剛看到大家的發言可以很清楚的知道今天的討論不會有共識從剛大體討論到一開始進入到第三條的時候的情況就是如此所以本日協商的過程公開發言的內容都已經錄音錄影並且列入記錄因為仍然無法取得共識"},{"start":6742.663,"end":6757.771,"text":"所以我們在基於公教法案要一致的處理因此今天本日協商了兩個主題後續就依照立法院職權行使法第12章相關規定的處理那麼今天我們會議就到這邊結束謝謝各位"},{"start":6763.154,"end":6767.36,"text":"主席 讓他們那個表達立場的意外面講表達也好 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說明及詢討完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請金管會於一周內以順便答覆委員令要求期限則從期鎖定三 委員 邱志偉 陳玉珍 所提順便質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請金管會以順便答覆四本院委員 蔡玉瑜等16人委員 牛許廷等26人分別擬具銀行保第125條及第125條之四條文修正草案等二案另則期繼續審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1658.055,"end":1660.544,"text":"好 對 請問各位委員對議事錄有沒有意義"},{"start":1662.301,"end":1691.386,"text":"沒有異議 我們議事錄確定民進黨團建請變更議程針對本次財政委員會全體委員會討論事項建請針列委員陳俊宇等二十人擬具使用牌照稅法第五條條文修正草案提案人有吳秉瑞 郭國文 賴慧媛 李昆城請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見 好那我們就針列"},{"start":1693.848,"end":1718.537,"text":"請議事人員宣讀今日議程討論事項一繼續審查使用牌照稅二十九案一行政院函勤審議本院委員邱振軍的十九人委員陳昌明等十八人委員羅明才等二十人委員廖偉祥等十九人委員楊瓊英等二十七人委員徐宇震等二十二人委員邱若驊等十七人委員林俊憲等二十六人"},{"start":1719.117,"end":1738.157,"text":"王宏維19人李彥秀16人蘇清泉18人徐欣怡24人郭玉琴19人王美惠19人李昆城18人羅天惠17人郭國文18人吳佩儀17人葛如君16人沈發慧16人林思明22人"},{"start":1740.379,"end":1761.32,"text":"委員賴世保等25人 委員黃建豪等20人分別擬具使用牌照稅法第5條條文修正草案等24案二本院台灣民眾黨的很擬具使用牌照稅法第5條及第7條條文修正草案案三本院委員廖先祥等17人擬具使用牌照稅法第5條及第38條條文修正草案案四本院委員牛許廷等"},{"start":1762.38,"end":1778.413,"text":"17人委員鍾嘉碧等16人分別擬聚使用牌照稅法第7條條文修正草案案等二案5本院委員廖偉祥等17人擬聚使用牌照稅法第7條及第38條條文修正草案案2審查使用牌照稅法16案1本院委員陳樹岳等21人"},{"start":1780.535,"end":1807.018,"text":"委員吳麗華等16人 委員盲君等16人委員羅美玲等18人 委員顏寬恆等17人委員林玉琴等17人 委員葉元之等20人委員徐富奎等17人 委員陳昌明等16人委員丁學忠等18人 委員張志倫等17人委員徐巧欣等23人 委員萬美玲等18人委員洪孟凱等19人 委員翁曉琳等18人分別擬據使用牌照稅法第5條 條文修正草案等15案"},{"start":1807.839,"end":1826.345,"text":"二 本院委員林世民等二十三人女俊使用牌照稅法第七條條文修正草案案三 本院委員陳俊宇等二十人女俊使用牌照稅法第五條條文修正草案案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1829.631,"end":1848.938,"text":"我們本次會議安排審查行政院函請審議委員邱正軍等19人分別擬具使用牌照稅法第5條條文修正草案以及第7條條文修正草案第38條條文修正草案總共我們有"},{"start":1851.252,"end":1861.799,"text":"四十六案的條文內容以及含我們今天有兩個修正 共兩案我們現在預計宣讀時間五分鐘請議事人員宣讀使用牌照稅法修正草案新增十七案"},{"start":1871.522,"end":1900.405,"text":"委員陳樹岳等21人委員吳麗華等16人委員丁雪忠等18人委員林月琴等17人委員徐巧欣等23人委員徐富鬼等17人委員翁曉琳等18人委員張志倫等17人委員萬美玲等18人委員顏匡衡等17人委員馬文君等16人提案及委員陳俊宇等20人提案均與行政院提案相同"},{"start":1902.082,"end":1925.84,"text":"修正第五條第二項同行政院提案新增第三項前項自中華民國一百十五年一月一日起因免徵使用牌照稅造成直轄市及縣市政府減少之稅收應由中央能源主管機關補足之委員洪孟凱等十九人提案委員陳昌明等十六人提案委員葉元之等二十人提案均相同"},{"start":1926.997,"end":1943.872,"text":"委員羅美玲等18案提案修正第5條第2項條文為直轄市及縣市政府於下列期間得對完全以電能為動力之機動車輛免徵使用牌照稅並報財政部被查1.電動汽車自中華民國101年1月6日起至120年12月31日止2.電動機車自中華民國107年1月1日起至120年12月31日止"},{"start":1953.874,"end":1973.772,"text":"委員林士明等二十三人提案修正第七條第一項第八款部分文職刪除同一戶籍等四字宣讀完畢委員林士明等人所提修正動議第二項後段增列"},{"start":1975.02,"end":1995.275,"text":"直轄市及縣市政府於下列期間得對完全以電能為動力值機動車輛及與我國能源效率標示中純電行程測試值達80公里以上之油電混合動力車輛免徵使用牌照稅並報財政部被查第七條"},{"start":1997.458,"end":2007.51,"text":"好我們現在進行委員林思明等人所提修正動議使用牌照稅法第七條條文修正動議修正第一項第八款"},{"start":2009.264,"end":2036.073,"text":"供持有身心障礙手冊或證明 並領有駕駛執照者使用 且為該身心障礙者使用所用之車輛 每人以一輛為限 因身心障礙情況致無駕駛執照者 其本人配有同一戶籍二親等以內親屬或車籍與身心障礙戶籍為同一直轄市或縣市之二親等以內親屬所有以下與行政院提案相同 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2038.547,"end":2039.008,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在開始協商"},{"start":2097.5,"end":2097.52,"text":"好"},{"start":2108.649,"end":2129.449,"text":"各位委員還有我們部長我想今天的修法針對使用牌照稅法第五條我們有諸多委員眾多委員提案包含邱正軍委員陳超明委員羅明財委員楊瓊英委員徐益臻委員邱若驊委員林俊憲委員王宏威委員蘇清泉委員"},{"start":2130.593,"end":2152.665,"text":"郭益勤委員 王美惠委員 李坤成委員 羅廷維委員 郭國文委員 吳佩奕委員 葛如君委員還有我本人 賴世保委員 黃建豪委員 陳樹業委員 吳立華委員馬文君委員 袁寬恆委員 林月琴委員 習富奎委員 丁學忠委員 張志倫委員 習巧行委員 萬美玲委員"},{"start":2153.706,"end":2171.383,"text":"翁曉琳委員還有台灣民眾黨團以及剛才我們曾烈成俊宇委員的提案提案同行政院提案均延至119年12月31號我想基本上對於這個貴委員的提案都是意見都一致"},{"start":2172.284,"end":2186.514,"text":"把貨物稅電動車的免稅延至119年12月31日我想委員的修法的方向都是一致的文質也差不多先請財政部對委員這個提案有沒有意見"},{"start":2190.313,"end":2200.884,"text":"對貨物稅的部分委員大家都是沒有意見我想在牌照稅的部分行政院的版本因為對於使用電動車輛的使用牌照稅的免徵部分是到114年12月31號"},{"start":2209.032,"end":2234.351,"text":"那因此院板希望能夠再能夠延長5年到119年的12月31號那主要第一個也就是因為淨零碳排的一個願景以及以及我們考量對電動車的產業的一個支持讓他們希望能夠往這個方向來發展所以院板就提出這樣的一個的免徵使用牌照稅延長到119年12月31號這是以上的說簡單的說明好"},{"start":2238.464,"end":2242.605,"text":"那各位有沒有 還有沒有要補充針對這個延長這個案子 有沒有延長到119人 沒有問題啦這條都沒有問題來 18位沒有 延長沒有問題 大家都贊成現在是外界 我們是有聽到聲音啦這個聲音一定要反映這個稅是地方稅吧"},{"start":2263.263,"end":2269.785,"text":"對啊那我們現在撿這個這個地方政府在買單啦所以這個這個要去處理處理啊這個錢"},{"start":2278.311,"end":2294.433,"text":"不是啊 你可以不我的意思就是說不必得嘛就是給他這樣子然後我們中央要補嘛除非你這個這個採訪法這個修過以後就可以那就不要得啊"},{"start":2296.707,"end":2322.929,"text":"那個我想這部分是針對我們有那個稅損多少錢那個寶哥我講一下好了寶哥我講一下等一下我先跟各位委員報告好了就是有關於這個甄列第三項就剛才寶哥講的就是前項還有總共有李燕秀委員 葉英志委員習新委員 陳昭明委員洪孟凱委員等均提案延至119年12月31號沒有意見但是甄列第三項"},{"start":2324.47,"end":2351.26,"text":"第三項就是前項是中華民國115年1月1日起因貶真實用牌照稅造成直轄縣市政府減少之稅收應由中央能源主管機關補足之這個我想我們在相關宣達的時候也有很多委員做這方面的一個建議所以這第三項這個我們可能今天大家要表達一下意見來 請郭文先舉手郭文先舉手"},{"start":2354.361,"end":2377.931,"text":"吳秉堯先生好請秉瑞先詢問 詢問 請問一下在延長之前的這個所謂的之前也有減免嘛現在是要延長五年嘛那之前的減免那個稅有補嗎沒有補那之前的每一年大概是多少錢一年啦你不要給我一次算五年啦一年的"},{"start":2383.811,"end":2393.001,"text":"現在除以4的話90幾除以4"},{"start":2402.452,"end":2414.988,"text":"目前全國現在是22縣市都停徵過去4年合計90多億大概平均一年大概22到23億左右平均一年我先講我的意見"},{"start":2418.325,"end":2444.36,"text":"地方政府得 停徵所謂得就是可以跟不可都可以 可免徵也可以不免徵但是這樣子因為這是一個延長的法案之前已經免徵了你說現在有地方政府我跟妳講說我現在不免徵嗎不會有這樣的地方政府嗎哪有這樣的地方政府但是問題是賴委員我們都在財政委會這麼久你那個財政紀律"},{"start":2447.362,"end":2470.044,"text":"那個法你以前修的時候你非常重視這個法而且你說如果造成的稅損 財源從哪裡來那個要講清楚現在這個財政收支劃分法如果照現在行政院的版本也好照已經修過的版本也好無論如何地方政府都多很多錢"},{"start":2471.263,"end":2491.193,"text":"而且最重要的是地方政府這些年來已經連續多少年他的整體的財政支出都是plus就都有剩餘當然他過去有負債現在還沒有完全填補完但是最近這幾年每年都是剩餘結果現在變成地方請客然後中央買單"},{"start":2492.776,"end":2503.33,"text":"那這個既然我能請客我就一定請客啊假設我們是地方的民意代表我們也是地方的首長的話我一定請客我不可能別的縣市請客我不請客啊"},{"start":2504.979,"end":2527.2,"text":"但是卻找中央買單中央的財政已經相對非常的困難了所以這個是不是再考量一下其實也不用一年二十幾億每一個縣市就算我新北市政府四百萬人口假設你都照人數平均我覺得幾乎是六分之一的台灣的人口二十幾億我也還有三億 四億而已 真的"},{"start":2528.122,"end":2537.138,"text":"財政收支法文法已經拿去那麼多了真的有必要再去計較這個一年三億四億嗎我是覺得這個大家互相一下啦不要"},{"start":2538.854,"end":2566.38,"text":"贏是你們的贏但是贏到貴賓贏到每個農民都要去賠好 謝謝吳秉仁委員郭文貴謝謝主席我延續吳秉仁委員所有說法地方政府接下來裁員會廣增而且是屬於中央下放的一些被動收入那也就是自主的運用的空間比以往非常的多然後現在的稅損的部分要由中央負擔這確實是需要商議的一個地方"},{"start":2566.98,"end":2590.968,"text":"不過就目前為止我所拿到的資料當中以新北市為例就剛剛吳秉偉講新北市的部分他預估的這個稅損的部分5年的估計居然是高達38億這個我覺得財政部要好好的審視一番為什麼因為過往的14年當中新北市的這個稅收的部分有關於這個電動車這個部分不過是11.7億"},{"start":2595.129,"end":2616.642,"text":"那為什麼未來的五年會高達38億呢我不曉得這個數字有沒有什麼問題財政部所以主要好好審視一番不能隨便說地方政府說的算這是第一第二部分如果真的需要中央的部分的話我個人建議比較是屬於用公務基金的部分來動用而不是用公務預算來動用"},{"start":2617.683,"end":2637.071,"text":"空空基金的部分的動用也會比較方便一些些因為空空基金基本上跟中央跟地方其實它有一個連帶的共同性所以這是我個人的建議 以上好 謝謝郭國文委員還有要先舉手先請廖先祥委員然後接下來李坤臣委員"},{"start":2638.459,"end":2654.559,"text":"好 謝謝因為我自己本身是電動車主先表達一下電動車主的一個心聲因為自己本身是電動車主所以我也不會說希望政府延長五年這件事情因為我本身我會是受惠者如果說政府真的願意延長的話當然就代替所有的電動車主感謝其實電動車主我認為所有的電動車主他"},{"start":2657.743,"end":2670.688,"text":"並不是特別在意幾年幾年這件事情而是在意課稅級距這件事情因為我們的電動車的一個課稅使用排到稅的如果以車價來看的話可能一台100萬"},{"start":2673.245,"end":2675.746,"text":"電動車他需要繳的使用牌照稅大概是兩三百萬的油車的一個使用牌照稅所以說很多的電動車不是不願意繳稅而是怕這個稅率它是一個不合理的所以說延長這部分當然就尊重"},{"start":2688.471,"end":2707.404,"text":"大家的一個共識只是說在延長的過程中我希望財政部在後續能夠盡快的去把電動車的一個使用牌照稅課稅的級距這件事情去跟電動車主去做一些溝通去協調我相信只要是一個合理的稅收課稅級距那所有的電動車主都會很願意的來繳納稅金以上 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2714.517,"end":2718.084,"text":"還有哪位委員要發言沒有以坤城 坤城來 坤城謝謝主席"},{"start":2720.745,"end":2746.804,"text":"因為這個是延續性的一個提案那我們就是對於延長到129年大家都沒有意見那也表示說這個之前這個地方政府對於牌照稅應該都是他們都沒有收對不對都沒有收那所以說如果把這一個一個延續性的這一個法案再把它延長到129年那基本上對於地方政府來講那也是延續過去的政策"},{"start":2747.624,"end":2770.883,"text":"那過去都沒有收他不可能因為這樣子那就變成去收也不可能那過去沒有收也沒有對這個財政有造成什麼樣的一個影響那你突然就是說那因為這個好像是一個新的政策然後實施下去之後對於地方政府財政會有影響這不可能因為這次都是一個原系性的所以這是第一個那第二個就是說那如果這樣子的話既然是延續性的那也不用去"},{"start":2771.704,"end":2793.558,"text":"去期待說那突然因為這個政策下去之後電動車大家就突然都買電動車了然後為了要省牌照稅都買電動車也不可能所以基本上對於這一個牌照稅來講稅損的這一個就算地方政府來講沒有收到這些錢也是跟之前應該是會差不多的那一樣就財政紀律法你要掃到這些錢你的錢是從哪裡來"},{"start":2794.739,"end":2813.167,"text":"所以其實我看這一個我們召委的就沒有提到一樣就是得對不對得得得得這個地方可以得免收我是希望說是不是我們就按照財政部的提案還是授權由地方政府來做處理"},{"start":2817.337,"end":2834.423,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝主席剛剛共領幾位委員的高見我覺得都很有道理首先對於財政紀律這個德你要實施德免徵那麼它的相對的稅損要自行來承擔這個是一個紀律的表現這個完全支持"},{"start":2835.223,"end":2841.249,"text":"既然大家對於得這個部分認為既然過去地方政府得免徵的時候他也承受了這樣的稅損也還願意繼續來實施我們尊重各地方政府的權責但是我覺得剛剛從幾個修正動議當中還是聽到了很有意義的積極性的意見"},{"start":2855.501,"end":2864.807,"text":"包括剛剛向廖委員所提出的其實我們知道電動車免徵牌照稅它的目的是在目前燃油車佔比"},{"start":2866.479,"end":2886.461,"text":"很高的情況之下為了降低空污的排放減少環境的成本所以政府透過稅收的減免來鼓勵車主改用電動車這個趨勢我們看一下推動幾年來到底電動車的占比有沒有提高這個其實經濟部待會可以稍微回應一下"},{"start":2887.122,"end":2906.997,"text":"如果說使用牌照稅的免徵可以提高車主採用對環境比較友善的電動車那這樣的政策我相信部分中央地方都會予以支持但是呢在目前的情況之下我們看到如果說因為免徵其實在牌照稅地方政府認為他可以承擔是因為"},{"start":2908.138,"end":2926.163,"text":"使用的車主很少比如說以屏東縣來講我們的汽車使用牌照稅是地方的稅收的重要來源但是為什麼過去對於電動車免徵牌照稅好像還可以接受呢是因為實際上在我們非都的地方使用電動車的民眾"},{"start":2927.063,"end":2953.319,"text":"由于一些设施比如说充电桩或其他的周边服务设施还不是很普及所以一般的车主在非度地区采用意愿较低所以实际上造成的税损也相对有限但是诚如刚刚廖委员所说的如果未来的电动车越来越普及在各地方政府的使用牌照税的占比越来越高那这个税损就会产生一个压力所以合理的"},{"start":2953.939,"end":2974.117,"text":"合理的來說使用電動車它除了降低空污之外它仍然有其他的外部環境成本電動車除了沒有空污之外還是有其他使用道路造成地方政府它必須維修道路各項的一個負荷所以我非常肯定剛剛廖委員的說法電動車車主他願意採用電動車有他的考量就算是"},{"start":2974.938,"end":2989.323,"text":"停止免徵牌照稅他們還是會繼續使用但是認為牌照稅的急遽應該合理的反映在車主的負擔上所以這一點我是非常的肯定跟支持也是覺得希望說未來我們交通部這個"},{"start":2991.504,"end":3015.332,"text":"這個還有財政部對於使用燃油車跟電動車他在使用牌照稅上的級距一定要納入檢討來調整但是在還沒有調整之前看起來因為電動車的普及率還不是很高所以這樣的一個得減免 免徵的優惠措施還是可以支持但是我們覺得既然支持而且過去的稅準也有限"},{"start":3016.092,"end":3028.686,"text":"多數的地方政府也能承受所以我們覺得還是把那個德制保留不過另外一個第二個我發現我們主席的提案修正動議有提到說加入了純電型就是油電車"},{"start":3031.189,"end":3055.356,"text":"那油電車我就覺得很有意義因為在從燃油到純電之間油電是一個非常過渡期的很多人的選擇那如果這個選項可以予以政策上的納入支持也有助於我們未來純電車的普及率的推動所以這一點也要再請我們經濟部就這個部分來表達意見我支持廖委員所說的縱使未來停止免增"},{"start":3056.016,"end":3076.637,"text":"使用牌照税的这样的优惠对电动车主来讲还是要去研议将它的极具与合理化不要跟燃油车有太大的差别第二个我支持我们主席的修正动议评估将油电车也考虑如果得免征使用牌照税那么油电车是不是也可以纳入的一个使用对象以上"},{"start":3077.097,"end":3092.413,"text":"好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員我也提一下我的一個修正動力我這個修正動力針對油電混合車我們鼓勵這個如果說它的行駛電動驅動方式行駛80公里以上者"},{"start":3093.294,"end":3115.879,"text":"它也應該歸屬於零排放的車輛所以在國外的一個認定上面也把這種插電式的複合動力車也把它視為免徵使用牌照稅的一個車輛範圍所以到底我們要不要納入我個人有提一個修正案也謝謝宗家兵委員也認同這樣子的一個修法那現在請賴司保委員"},{"start":3119.104,"end":3135.273,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席我想今天我是覺得先把結果講一下我們今天一定要送出去了否則的話他沒有辦法在那個所以就大家看怎麼樣要這些的修正東西都出去還是我們就把它做一個結論"},{"start":3138.155,"end":3158.69,"text":"那個稅的來源要不要中央我覺得這一部分來講的話我倒並沒有堅持的這個如果就是說我們過去怎麼做未來就再繼續演用這樣的精神基本上我是可以接受的但是主席講的這個油電的混合應該納入因為油電混合的這一部分這個經濟部要表示一點意見"},{"start":3164.173,"end":3170.035,"text":"來 請經濟部還有等一下講完葉元之委員講完再請經濟部表示意見好不好好寶根還有要講嗎沒有了請葉元之委員我想因為為了達到淨零碳排所以大家鼓勵電動車這個方向應該沒有問題是政策的方向因為淨零碳排這是屬於中央政策所以做這個事情對應該是中央提出來的"},{"start":3192.168,"end":3209.383,"text":"那中央提出來這樣的政策然後地方買單我覺得地方還會有疑慮以新北市來講的話剛剛從嘉賓委員有提到匯損大概38億那是因為現在一年應收本來可以收但是沒有收大概都5億左右然後如果以每年20%成長的話"},{"start":3211.565,"end":3229.601,"text":"這樣加上去5億 6億 7億 8億這樣加上去的話大概是38億所以這也不是一筆小錢啦所以我覺得還是必須要把地方政府裁員這個部分把它考慮進去啦 謝謝好 謝謝燕子委員那現在請經濟部針對修正動力那個油電車這部分要不要納入請再表示意見好 跟主席還有各位委員說明經濟部這邊針對油電車的部分做個簡單的回應"},{"start":3247.133,"end":3268.593,"text":"經濟部針對油電車的部分簡單做個回應第一個交通部主政的淨零轉型12項關鍵策略裡面目前針對運具電動化還有無碳化這一個項目是以電動車為主要的項目目前並沒有涵蓋油電車在過去訂定這樣子的政策之前"},{"start":3269.233,"end":3289.339,"text":"最主要的原因第一個是目前國外的補助趨勢基本上就是朝向電動車的補助油電車的補助是慢慢在退場當中第二個是針對國內的產業的部分國內目前的整車業者是沒有投入所謂80公里以上的國產插電式油電混合車"},{"start":3291.94,"end":3301.65,"text":"所以這個部分如果是鼓勵下去的話基本上都是國外的車輛的受惠目前是沒有國內生產的業者以上做補充報告"},{"start":3312.351,"end":3328.29,"text":"副署長 交通部的數據截至今年9月那種車很少大概僅佔我們新車銷售率的不到就0.5都不到 0.43平均每個縣市大概我們算一下大概50台而已"},{"start":3329.071,"end":3348.48,"text":"所以這不會造成明顯的各縣市的一個稅損所以這部分我是認為因為我們認為說這個油電混合車在現在來講的話也很多的這個車主就是鼓勵他開因為這個對於我們的節能排灘淨營排灘還是有幫助的而且他造成的稅損不多"},{"start":3349.48,"end":3372.269,"text":"所以我是希望經濟部能夠考量就是在現在沒有辦法完成這種純電車的一個狀況之下稅損也不是沒有那麼大是不是可以考量請 吳秉仁委員我如果數據真的是這麼少的話而且要不要給那減免也是由地方政府決定那只要不要補稅"},{"start":3373.949,"end":3399.639,"text":"這個我們當然支持因為地方政府他有決定的權利那他決定了假設我是新北市長我說退一萬部獎我假設我是新北市長我一年為了我新北市撿100台200台的車輛的牌照稅然後可以達到這個目的我不會因為這樣斤斤計較說叫中央政府給我補一兩百萬的這個稅新北市政府現在今年的預算是2500億"},{"start":3402.336,"end":3426.524,"text":"所以我是覺得說是不是如果贊成昭緯跟賴四胞委員黃珊珊委員的提案但是不要斤斤計較說稅要哪裡補因為已經連續幾年新北市政府的財政最後的結算都是Plus這個是有數據可查的好不好好 謝謝經理部賴市長好 謝謝朱惠文的指導"},{"start":3427.364,"end":3448.132,"text":"那針對推動低碳化特別是在因應氣候變遷那電動車事實上它有助於改善空污或是減碳的這個部分那過去如何實施那這次院版也提出來的剛剛有提到的說是油電的這個部分當時訂定這個德就是依照地方政府"},{"start":3448.812,"end":3470.431,"text":"各地的這個情況不一樣因為有的縣市它城鄉差距是相當的龐大的那必須要有配套措施在這邊也要跟組委員報告事實上依照氣候變遷因應辦法各地方政府他就要提出他氣候變遷的推動方案那若是大家地方政府認為他這個是"},{"start":3472.273,"end":3490.231,"text":"一致的目標全世界認為也是應該如此的話他應該就會納進去這是第一點的補充第二點的補充事實上我的委員提案的版本由中央能源主管機關來指引坦白跟主委委員講我們能源署它的業務費"},{"start":3491.943,"end":3509.509,"text":"它只有不到2億事實上根本沒有辦法來支付這些龐大的這些地方政府得的這個所謂的稅損的部分這個是實際上是有困難的好 次長了解那現在請宗嘉病院委員再補充好 謝謝"},{"start":3510.99,"end":3529.129,"text":"主席在場各位委員先進我們列協機關聽起來多數的意見是傾向說維持原來的德把時間延長但是考慮到油電車未來也具有跟電動車一樣值得我們免徵牌照稅的這樣的一個鼓勵"},{"start":3530.03,"end":3542.638,"text":"是不是我看到主席的修正動議容我表達一點再修正的看法因為主席目前的條文它是在第二項的第三行在完全以電能為動力之機動車輛後面有一個級"},{"start":3548.002,"end":3572.138,"text":"這樣的話會造成地方政府他對於純電車給免徵好像就連帶著對於油電車也得給免徵因為油電車跟電動車在各縣市政府的分配比例不太一樣 數量不太一樣是不是說把這樣的一個好意放在把給予我國能源效率飆升的那一整段到最後的油電混合動力車輛那一整段"},{"start":3572.939,"end":3587.798,"text":"放到最後的第三項第三項說我國能源效率標示中純電行程測試值達80公里以上之油電混合車輛得比照辦理"},{"start":3588.339,"end":3603.082,"text":"那這樣的話呢放在第三項的時候呢讓地方政府大概判斷如果延續著既有的對電動車的免徵牌照稅的優惠他就按照我們目前修法的方式他可以持續的進行但是第三項他可以評估他"},{"start":3604.584,"end":3628.204,"text":"縣市轄內的油電車的數量它要不要給它比照那給地方這種一個衡量的餘地那這樣我們可以看得出來油電車有沒有得到這個鼓勵有沒有改變這也比較好就是兩項不要並列我知道 以上好 謝謝宗教兵委員各位委員我想我們這個第五條大家也充分討論我想我就做一個結論好不好那第五條是 我們就"},{"start":3633.539,"end":3651.169,"text":"所有的46位委員所提的一個46案單列的46案第5條那個部分還有我的一個修正動議拉里斯巴委員的第三項的修正動議這部分我們就是全數保留送出委員會去請對"},{"start":3661.175,"end":3666.673,"text":"那個就請那個我們財政部這邊你們到時候就提出一個"},{"start":3668.072,"end":3678.599,"text":"好不好 大家有沒有意見都放在第三項 因為文字都一樣啦剛剛各委員的意見我們都尊重第一個剛剛各委員提到就是那個有關那個稅率的級距這個部分我們想我們再來我們來檢討那第二個就是我們我們召委所提到的就是對於油電混合的所以我想這涉及到經濟部剛剛經濟部也講得很清楚他的目標是以全電動電能為動力的車輛"},{"start":3694.549,"end":3698.011,"text":"要鼓勵這個油電混合是一個過渡型的一個做另外就是國內也整車業者也沒有投入這樣的一個插電式的複合動力車的開發跟生產國內的車輛沒有這樣放進去是不是要再回頭鼓勵他們做部長我算你的意思了你不用講太多了我想我們這樣決定好不好是"},{"start":3721.344,"end":3742.312,"text":"這個部分因為大家還有意見部會還有意見啦所以這部分我們還是送出去我們送協商好不好還是送出去啦協商的時候部會你再提出你的這個修正的條文看怎麼樣 包含剛剛中交兵委員這個我覺得都可以把它納入你們未來在條文修正在協商的時候都可以提出來好不好"},{"start":3743.5,"end":3759.359,"text":"來 我支持主席的一個結論畢竟就趕快給他送出去然後因為這裡面還有各縣市的意見也要進來也對油電的事實上油電也沒那麼緊張全台灣只有一千多部而已也不是很嚴重"},{"start":3760.339,"end":3780.075,"text":"一千多而已啊 怎麼沒有一千多而已啊一千一百多台而已啊一千一百多台而已啦就這麼多而已啦到今年九月為止80公里 還加一個80公里的啦就是因為數量少會變成說是不是會特定對象那個我們請部會有沒有請部會跟經濟部"},{"start":3787.1,"end":3806.579,"text":"不僅僅經濟部還有地方政府也要有意見下次協商的時候我們拟據一個比較具體可行的條文好不好所以我這個數量到底有多少這個數量到底有多少來 坤仔因為這討論很久了我們就請財政部 會同經濟部"},{"start":3808.889,"end":3830.07,"text":"還有環境部我們到時候送協商的時候拟據一個比較可行的條文但是也要當心說是不是因為這個數量其實不多會變成說是特定的一些進口車輛這個要注意所以我請財政部你們去延上一下因為油電其實沒有你們講得那麼嚴重"},{"start":3833.107,"end":3845.112,"text":"對 所以你們對委員的意見我們送協商的時候我還是希望你們拟據一個可以的條文 好不好好 第五條我們就全案保留送協商OK 好好 現在我們開始討論第七條"},{"start":3852.206,"end":3875.918,"text":"第七條有台灣民眾黨團的提案還有牛委員的廖偉祥委員鍾嘉斌委員還有我本席的先請民眾黨團還是來 請黃珊珊委員謝謝主席我想第七條的部分我們主要還是提出了有關身心障礙長照的部分"},{"start":3877.202,"end":3893.223,"text":"那剛剛講的延長電動車我想大家都有共識只是裁員怎麼來但是接下來我們是民眾黨的提案是針對身心障礙目前是免稅但是其實國內有非常多的長照家庭他其實也有很多長照身心失能的長輩"},{"start":3894.364,"end":3911.709,"text":"那這些它的確是有需要因為現在從各地方政府的狀況也有民眾反映包括各地的縣市政府他們很多的民眾抱怨長照交通車的數量不夠甚至提前一個禮拜預約每個禮拜一就要準時八點鐘打電話"},{"start":3913.79,"end":3927.125,"text":"那縣市政府也很為難像嘉義市他就說經費不足找不到司機所以沒有辦法增加班次所以類似這樣子的長照需求他因為地方政府的確有在"},{"start":3928.115,"end":3952.292,"text":"努力但是可能在長照相關的出門運送的部分的確是有他的量能不足的問題所以我們還是希望提出有關家裡有長照失能的人他也有可能在他的排稻稅上有接送他的這些親屬的車輛可以比照身心障礙者的相關的免稅規定"},{"start":3953.332,"end":3980.095,"text":"進行相關的免稅當然我們知道這是地方稅所以應該會影響地方的財源所以整體來說應該還是在衛福部長照3.0明年就要上路那接下來的3.0能不能夠支應更多的所謂的運送量能社區式的交通接送或者是說就醫的交通接送如果這兩個增加的話我想這個稅金的部分就可以cover掉也就是說由中央來"},{"start":3980.987,"end":3998.494,"text":"Cover這些相關免稅的部分那我們認為說社區的照顧尤其長照杯葛不斷的上演那我們怎麼樣增加長照的家庭他的負擔這是民眾黨提案的目的但我們還是希望說也是希望能夠幫地方政府Cover掉他的所謂的稅損那我們這是一個初步的"},{"start":4002.014,"end":4027.871,"text":"初步的意見但是相關的細節我想今天大家我們提出來那各單位他們也都會有不同的意見那我們至少要做到讓衛福部跟財政部必須要針對強化富康巴士跟長照交通車的量能如何減輕長照家庭接送負擔整體的計畫要提出他們具體完善的方式那這個部分台灣民眾黨希望能夠在今天的會議裡面有一個至少"},{"start":4028.598,"end":4035.409,"text":"再做一個附帶決議還有讓他們能夠在這上面能夠表達財政部跟衛福部的立場謝謝好 那個鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":4039.102,"end":4067.56,"text":"其實這一點我們看很多人提案精神都是相同的就是過去原條文當中在第八款它對於身心障礙手冊或證明那麼這個部分我們做了很多的一些擴充的補充的一些規定我的提案內容是這樣子我們原條文它這裡是說必須是他是身心障礙者那麼"},{"start":4068.3,"end":4076.596,"text":"他是他零有駕駛執照的他的車輛一人為限那如果是無駕駛執照的話那麼他的配偶或"},{"start":4077.523,"end":4099.939,"text":"同一戶籍的二親等以內也可以來試用但事實上我們要了解現在的少子化其實它這裡限定的二親等以內其實就是子女或者是尊親屬那尊親屬不太可能比你更老的來幫你開這個車尤其是長輩如果是65歲的長輩所以我這邊的修正意見是說如果是身心障礙而且是65歲以上"},{"start":4101.38,"end":4117.333,"text":"他的二親等之內已經沒有尊親屬可以來幫他代為駕駛他事實上需要靠他的卑親屬但是卑親屬如果他是沒有子女的那可能就會由兄弟姊妹的子女也就是他的這個生侄輩的來協助他"},{"start":4117.873,"end":4139.76,"text":"那这时候二清等的限制呢就会局限到这些协助者那刚刚黄委员说的很好因为各地方政府的这个富康巴士的供应啊还没有办法来满足每一个身障者的需求如果身障者本身没有驾照那富康巴士的数量又不足其实这些二清等以外有同一户籍的"},{"start":4141.319,"end":4160.727,"text":"親屬 被親屬他們是很好的協助政府來分攤這些公共資源的也就是說如果這些他的家人願意幫忙反而我們在復康巴士有限的情況之下還是可以滿足這些無駕照的生長者他行的需求所以我是原則上我是支持黃山委員的意見他是把它放到長照"},{"start":4161.727,"end":4187.442,"text":"那我這裡是就原條文身心障礙者 無駕照者那麼同一戶籍內不以二親等為限那這個至於要怎麼樣去認定我們希望是由主管機關來認定不要在親等上把它限得那麼死我再強調一次如果是65歲以上的二親等內除了尊親屬之外如果沒有子女 沒有卑親屬的話他可能要看到兄弟姊妹的子女來協助照顧他"},{"start":4188.787,"end":4210.156,"text":"那這個情況之下呢我們可能是希望說能夠將這個輕等的限制放寬後由主管機關去定之保留一個彈性 以上說明好 謝謝崇嘉賓委員請吳秉榮委員先不要誤會輕等二輕等以內就是親兄弟姐妹也可以不一定是背親屬不一定是兄弟的子女現在的駕照是合法70歲以後才要多一些檢查嘛"},{"start":4217.26,"end":4245.418,"text":"所以假設一個70歲的身障者他需要協助他的弟弟 他的妹妹如果跟他同戶籍也是可以用現在一個最大的問題就是去認定的量能問題如果你擴大 那美其名照顧但是你要小心 我們台灣是這樣子我們以前常常被媒體批評說要開Benz去領社會救濟"},{"start":4247.125,"end":4261.407,"text":"那這個你如果在這個地方沒有辦法有這樣量能實質查核或是要互集放在一起事實上我住在汐止我可能那個身障者在新莊我可能我這個就可以這樣減免了"},{"start":4262.74,"end":4291.423,"text":"當然這個弊端是可以透過訪視 調查實質認定但是問題是這樣你要增加多少公務人員增加多少能力地方政府有這樣負擔的能力嗎中央政府的國稅局有這樣的能力嗎我們公務員非常你要了解說實話要積增的成本是非常的高我個人是認為是這樣子原有的條文是要協助"},{"start":4293.178,"end":4319.693,"text":"這個身障者那戶籍相同然後原來的條件我覺得是合理你如果一放寬那真的是不得了因為台灣的居住遷徙是自由的然後民法的規定住所跟戶籍所在地那是可以任意變成我叫到戶政機關去做一個登記就可以了所以有可能是如果你這個門一開"},{"start":4321.701,"end":4350.716,"text":"那會增加非常多人那問題是我們又沒有實質查訪的能力那怎麼辦呢所以這部分是不是請財政部跟這個衛福部來談一下你有這個量能或是你有這個能力去做這樣的事情我想先聽各位委員的意見現在請賴會員委員好 謝謝主席我想再重新檢討就是車輛的使用別這一部分第七條的第一項我有一個建議就是說"},{"start":4351.556,"end":4367.314,"text":"我認為我們沒有充分反映新型態車輛的使用使用的一個方式那我建議就是在修正的方向是不是應該新增就是共享車輛還是說平台的硬具像Uber這些比較新式的"},{"start":4368.815,"end":4393.72,"text":"就是这一些平台的硬具我特别要强调的就是说其实台湾很多的偏乡尤其老人化我们长照用了很多的一个地方政府用了很多的一个投资其实是在偏乡那我们是不是应该把农用的那个GG还有农村小型车辆的一个分类就像农村常用的那个ATV那种"},{"start":4394.44,"end":4416.74,"text":"那個農村那個農業搬運車那他使用的方式其實是跟一般那個一般道路的那個車子是不一樣的可是他沒有被明確的納管那我是建議就是說比照農機的一個免稅低稅那把它分類把它分類的很清楚以上是我的一個建議好 謝謝賴會員委員"},{"start":4419.322,"end":4447.427,"text":"请李坤 陈昭伟谢谢主席其实我们当然都希望要来照顾身心障碍者可是我刚才听就是说第一个我们是认定的问题就是说认定我们需要增加多少的一些能力来认定就是说你有可能是你没有跟他住在一起你可能也可能不是实际的照顾者这个都会发生问题所以"},{"start":4448.107,"end":4462.497,"text":"這一個財政部才會說是用同一戶籍第二個就是說其實這個是需要衛福部來做協助的就是各地方政府的這一個社會局或是說衛生局要怎麼樣來做協助我覺得這是相當重要的因為"},{"start":4464.858,"end":4487.833,"text":"這個會更貼近就是說使用者他的需求因為相近各個縣市政府他們的社會局或是衛生局都有相關的資料對於這一些身心障礙車輛的派遣我想說未來地方政府應該是可以做得更多我是建議就是說是不是還是保留這一個原來的條文以上說明請務必委員再補充"},{"start":4493.554,"end":4514.702,"text":"我用很簡短的補充就是現在的身心障礙者我舉個例子我如果開一個比較生病的開一個比較重的刀我在復原期間其實我也可以申請身心障礙所以你如果這樣子的話那個範疇會過得很大所以這個要提醒一下"},{"start":4516.755,"end":4542.156,"text":"因為我本席 我自己也有一個提案就一個修正動力我針對無照駕駛的這些身心障礙者提供原本的條文講二親等以內的親屬要同一戶籍我認為說因為現在同一戶籍很多的子女少子化的這種社會如果你把他限縮一定要同一戶籍有些子女他比如說就剛才講的"},{"start":4543.197,"end":4558.686,"text":"他父母住在假設新莊他又到那個比如中永和買房子但是他新買房子他一定要設在他買的房子裡面但是他每天都會去接送他的孩子接送他的父母親所以這種情況一定要"},{"start":4560.507,"end":4576.444,"text":"限制說一定要同意戶籍可能跟現在的社會的這個實際的情況不一樣所以我做一個修正動議就是說我們對於這個不用一定要在涉及同意戶籍就是如果說它的這個"},{"start":4579.207,"end":4600.765,"text":"是這個車輛他的車籍與身心障礙者的戶籍為同一直轄室或縣市之二親等營內的親屬也可以適用就是說他只要依照他的車籍去做判斷我是有這樣一個修正同意現在就請財政部這邊針對剛才大家的一個提案說明做整體的回應好不好"},{"start":4610.727,"end":4612.71,"text":"謝謝委員我想這裡大家都認為對於身心障礙的朋友因為他沒有辦法身體的狀況沒辦法持有一輛車或者沒有辦法駕照而需要有人來照顧然後這個車有人在親屬來照顧"},{"start":4627.427,"end":4630.431,"text":"這個親屬的車輛是供身心障礙朋友來做使用我想這是一個前提只是說怎麼認定就是說我的車而我是供身心障礙的親屬來做使用因此在過程當中也經過歷次修法"},{"start":4644.751,"end":4650.712,"text":"也就是說在認定上不要讓我們的激增食物激增的同仁在認定上不要產生這個他困擾他困難度確實他在食物認定上他會產生困難因此在歷次的修法裡面在100最近一次是在103年6月的時候才把它修成其本人配偶或同一戶籍二親等以內所有"},{"start":4665.576,"end":4679.287,"text":"這個目的其實就是在於核食上有激增食物上的困難因此做這樣的一個規定那這個部分如同剛剛各位委員也說的牌照稅是屬於地方稅那地方激增機關在免徵這樣的一個牌照稅的時候它在食物執行上認定上有沒有困難"},{"start":4684.791,"end":4690.393,"text":"食物上如果不是這麼好認定而對到時候會造成它是不是業務上的一些風險我覺得這個要考慮我們大家都知道因為可以這樣就是說我們確實知道身心障礙朋友他需要有人幫忙他可是也要考慮到稅收的一個公平性造成我們激增同仁產生食物執行的一個困難我覺得這個是要同時考量"},{"start":4709.6,"end":4716.345,"text":"我想在地方政府的部分其實也可以容許他們可以去表達一下意見因為在食物執行是他們在做的衛福部吳副市長來表達你的意見"},{"start":4730.72,"end":4749.526,"text":"好那因為剛剛前面很多委員都有提到說未來在長照3.0或者是現在我們還是會要持續強化有關於交通資源的一些部件所以我們在特約這些交通接送的單位的時候其實我們會擴大這些多元特約的方向包含是說這些客運業者或者是"},{"start":4750.726,"end":4771.546,"text":"租赁业者或者是一些计程车客运服务业这些其实我们都有把它纳进来还有就是说针对原偏乡的部分我们也会针对这些车辆有购车的相关补助还有就是说现行的部分也有针对我们的服务提供单位它如果是投入我们长照交通接送的时候现行的法规也有做免征牌照税"},{"start":4772.366,"end":4793.232,"text":"車輛的這些相關的規定那未來就是在我們服務提供的時候還是會透過我們的社區整合性服務中心去強化相關的一些交通的銜接然後我們現在也有跟交通部這邊合作相關的一些預約的系統去做一些整合讓地方政府在派車輛的時候那可以去做更好的整合跟"},{"start":4793.632,"end":4821.968,"text":"多元共成的一些排班那這個部分我們還是會在長照的議題上面會持續努力那至於說有關於稅法修訂的部分我們還是尊重會上的這邊討論然後跟財政部這邊的一些評估以上好 吳秉瑞委員我很感佩我們主席還有各位委員想要照顧這個身心障礙者的這個心情這個我們照顧弱勢是本來大家就應該做的事情但是"},{"start":4822.788,"end":4839.035,"text":"如果說因為主席剛剛提到說因為現在單一戶籍的或是說少子化的狀況使得父母親跟子女可能戶籍不相同然後所以你希望說要把那個戶籍的限制拿掉那這個戶籍限制拿掉一拿掉之後就產生一個問題"},{"start":4841.031,"end":4857.937,"text":"所有的身心障礙者他2000等以內的親屬全部都免拍照稅了因為我戶籍不用限制所以假設我的2000等以內有一個人是身心障礙者我的車子就可以去申請說我這個拍照稅都免拍照稅"},{"start":4863.95,"end":4880.642,"text":"現在一個問題是剛剛其實部長講的我覺得我把它講到最極端我們念法律的人喜歡把例子舉到極端你就可以知道那問題會產生在哪裡你這個公務員如果因為這樣來申請你跟他同意的時候後來發現實質上不符"},{"start":4881.978,"end":4907.253,"text":"事實上他根本也沒有照顧他然後他就是也住不住在一起結果他這個牌照稅被核准的時候這個公務員以後是要跑地檢署跑法院的可能這個公務員他起先是他有可能是可能沒有去這麼仔細的認定或是說他就是比較粗心大意也沒有認定你來申請我就給你過了"},{"start":4908.982,"end":4930.168,"text":"這將來有可能要跑法院了所以我們真的是需要為公務員想一下你那個如果放得太寬然後又沒有一個很明確的標準它除了量能不足之外還有法律風險我覺得部長剛剛很客氣沒有把這部分講得很清楚因為我以前當法官所以我知道會有這個問題存在所以是不是再考量一下好 謝謝"},{"start":4931.568,"end":4947.337,"text":"我想針對第7條部分聽大家的意見是不是第7條我們就繼續留在我們委員會好不好38條日期的規定我們也是黃珊珊委員"},{"start":4952.731,"end":4980.567,"text":"主席我想跟剛剛大家的意見都差不多嘛所以我這邊可能要想要提一個附帶決議是請衛福部跟財政部在兩個月之內提出強化復康巴士跟長照交通車量能跟減輕長照家庭監送負擔的計劃等一下我請大家簽一下那我等一下再補上來三個月可以啊我來反正就是我們希望的是解決問題啦主要是有人真的是沒有辦法有出門的機會對"},{"start":4982.395,"end":4999.422,"text":"可以嗎 那個參謀附帶決議可以啊 三個月好對對好對啦 一起連署那我就編我們就宣告了OK等一下 等一下過了"},{"start":5002.888,"end":5013.396,"text":"出去那個第五層我們就出去那四次案先去加兩個修正案一起去四次案那個就還要不要卸傘要卸傘有電啦還有你那個"},{"start":5026.235,"end":5028.216,"text":"有點啦 有點的要協商啦"},{"start":5044.446,"end":5045.947,"text":"你協商的時候你再去講"},{"start":5065.268,"end":5080.02,"text":"好 那我就去幫你們趕快送出去我就幫你送出去你到那對修這個我們先看一下如果經濟是他們因為這個本來是他們來的他希望我們行的我們尊重他的意見"},{"start":5082.818,"end":5108.026,"text":"還有地方政府啊地方政府一定都說不要的那你也要尊重台啊我跟你講地方政府一毛不拔沒有啦 你要尊重 拔不拔不回事啦你還是得尊重他們的經驗我會根據我的經驗 問的結果我知道我知道 我只是問的結果 結果都一樣頂多有兩個政治層比較有良心政治認識 感覺 其他的都是不管"},{"start":5110.027,"end":5125.558,"text":"那明年就開始試用了阿媽熊就可以試用了多好啊 大家好開心喔很多人真的都打電話來問"},{"start":5138.367,"end":5148.713,"text":"不是 委員那個沒有說出生優惠沒有說保到每一個人都夠的啦對阿 對阿而且那個不用實際請看護來來來 我跟你講一個年輕人公共保護護護護護護護護護護護護"},{"start":5166.404,"end":5191.943,"text":"他就不跟我們辦啊,連家人都不跟我們辦,他說叫我們錢,他就叫我們錢跟他辦,所以我們就不跟他辦。你給我一張。我跟你講,他連帖子都不給我們。他沒有,他沒有,他沒有,他沒有,他沒有,他沒有,他沒有,他沒有,他沒有,"},{"start":5198.007,"end":5217.703,"text":"這裏面是一間餐廳,一間餐廳的中間是一間餐廳的餐廳。"},{"start":5221.51,"end":5225.727,"text":"好 各位委員我們現在協商完成先請議事人員宣讀協商結論"},{"start":5228.021,"end":5253.634,"text":"宣讀使用牌照稅協商結論第五條保留送院會協商處理第七條及第38條令擇期待審查宣讀通過附帶決議案請衛福部及財政部於三個月內提出強化復康八四及長照交通車輛能及減輕長照家庭接送負責之計劃提案委員黃珊珊 王世堅"},{"start":5255.374,"end":5275.581,"text":"賴會員 李昆成 林思明 賴世保 吳秉瑞 郭國文等宣讀完畢請問各位委員對協商結論有異議沒有那我們本次會議做如下決議"},{"start":5279.898,"end":5304.358,"text":"行政院韓勤審議本院委員邱振鈞等19人委員陳超明等18人委員羅明才等20人委員廖偉祥等19人委員楊瓊英等27人委員徐以珍等22人委員邱若驊等17人委員林俊憲等26人委員王宏威等19人委員李彥秀等16人委員蘇清泉等18人"},{"start":5304.958,"end":5333.075,"text":"委員徐欣盈等24人委員邱益勤等19人委員王美惠等19人委員李坤澄等18人委員羅廷瑋等17人委員郭國文等18人委員吳佩儀等17人委員葛如君等16人委員沈發慧等17人委員林思明等22人委員賴世保等25人委員黃劍豪等20人委員陳素月等21人委員吳麗華"},{"start":5335.458,"end":5351.233,"text":"等十六人委員馬文君等十六人委員羅美玲等十八人委員顏寬恒等十七人委員林月琴等十七人委員葉元之等二十人委員徐富奎等十七人委員陳超明等十六人"},{"start":5351.914,"end":5373.488,"text":"委員丁學忠等18人委員張志倫等17人委員習巧欣等23人委員萬美玲等18人委員洪孟凱等19人委員翁曉琳等18人委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具使用牌照稅法第五條修正草案等40案"},{"start":5375.031,"end":5400.072,"text":"以及委員林世民委員賴世寶所提第五條修正動議均已審查完略並按擬據審查報告提報提報院會討論院會討論前交由黨團協商院會討論時有本席補充說明請問各位委員對以上決議有異議沒有異議我們通過"},{"start":5405.072,"end":5413.856,"text":"對於台灣民眾黨團擬拒使用牌照稅法第五條及第七條條文修正草案委員廖先祥等17人擬拒"},{"start":5417.219,"end":5442.606,"text":"委員廖先祥等17人擬拒使用牌照稅法第5條及第38條條文修正草案委員牛許廷等17人委員鍾嘉秉等16人委員林思敏等23人分別擬拒使用牌照稅法第7條條文修正草案等3案委員廖偉祥等17人擬拒使用牌照稅法第7條及第38條條文修正草案令則其繼續審查"},{"start":5446.694,"end":5454.662,"text":"請問各位委員對以上決議有異議我們今天的會議就到此為止 我們散會"}]}},{"id":"17098","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17098","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dda45cfcab5ea799a52780e2ce05931da1b4456b5c46cbb78cd67d8a8f4b9e2e4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長、教育部及內政部就「『行人優先交通安全行動綱領』實施兩年來改善『行人地獄』具體成效暨台灣測速照相機密度精準度、速限制度精進檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部部長就「淡江大橋通車活動規劃辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n三、繼續審查(一)委員邱若華等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐富癸等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十六條條文修正草案」案及(四)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；審查(五)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查(一)委員邱若華等20人擬具「大眾捷運法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「大眾捷運法部分條文修正草案」案及(三)委員李昆澤等20人擬具「大眾捷運法第三十九條、第四十三條及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n五、繼續審查(一)委員盧縣一等18人擬具「鐵路法第二十六條及第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(三)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「鐵路法第五十六條之四、第六十七條之三及第六十八條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等25人擬具「鐵路法第五十六條之五條文修正草案」案、(五)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員廖先翔等25人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員張宏陸等18人擬具「鐵路法第六十五條條文修正草案」案及(八)委員洪孟楷等19人擬具「鐵路法第六十八條之四及第七十二條條文修正草案」案；審查(九)委員邱鎮軍等23人擬具「鐵路法增訂第六十八條之四條文草案」案。\n【本次會議開會事由一、二之詢答後，進行法案之逐條審查；開會事由三第(五)案及開會事由五第(九)案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-04","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-04T08:33:54+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-04T15:04:00+08:00","duration":23406,"影片長度":"06:30:06","委員發言時間":"08:33:54 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散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1722.806,"end":1741.765,"text":"好那我們先介紹在場委員首先介紹我們召委李坤澤召委現在介紹列席人員交通部陳士凱部長以及交通部公共運輸監理司廖錦智副司長"},{"start":1743.582,"end":1767.914,"text":"陸政道安司吳東林司長綜合規劃司張垂榮司長法治處許鴻達處長鐵道局楊振軍局長公路局林福山局長高速公路局陳文瑞局長運輸研究所黃興勳所長"},{"start":1771.547,"end":1798.957,"text":"觀光署黃和廷副所長台鐵公司馮輝昇總經理教育部中生教育師專門委員紀賢陽專委內政部國土管理署游元順總工程師警政署交通署陳朝欣副組長"},{"start":1801.664,"end":1827.627,"text":"鐵路警察局廖國正副局長消防署救災救護署陳世勳副組長以及衛生福利部國民健康署陳立堅檢任記者還有環境部化學物質管理署李秉雄主任秘書法務部謝志明參事"},{"start":1830.856,"end":1849.892,"text":"司法院行政訴訟懲戒廳林靜超法官勞動部職業安全衛生署陳志祺副組長國家運輸安全調查委員會林佩達執行長原住民組委員會社會福利處洪林副處長好"},{"start":1858.101,"end":1862.73,"text":"來 現在委員人數已達那請教各位在場委員對議事錄有沒有意見"},{"start":1864.769,"end":1890.694,"text":"謝謝沒有意見我們議事錄確認本日會議進行行人優先安行人優先交通安全行動綱領實施兩年來改善檢討及淡江大橋通車活動規劃辦理情形之專題報告及澳路交通管理處罰條例大眾捷運法鐵路法等修正草案之逐條審查我們先沒有"},{"start":1893.404,"end":1910.135,"text":"好那接下來就請列席機關來報告首先請交通部陳士凱部長報告主席各位委員先生女士大家好今天應"},{"start":1911.844,"end":1928.397,"text":"應邀列席貴委員會就我國行人優先交通安全行動綱領實施兩年來改善行人地域具體成效即臺灣測速照相機密度精準度速度限制"},{"start":1929.554,"end":1951.917,"text":"等精進檢討以及淡江大橋通車活動規劃等等兩岸進行報告敬請各位委員指教這兩年來交通部以行人安全為最優先積極推動道安三支建包括入口設施的改善照明的提升以及加強隔熱值的管理等等"},{"start":1952.599,"end":1958.394,"text":"並且持續推動道路與交通設施的改善以提供友善安全的用路環境為目標並且"},{"start":1960.612,"end":1984.21,"text":"特別針對學校的周邊偏鄉和高齡以及弱勢族群加強安全的防護讓全民行得更安全另外交通部也積極透過宣傳媒體合作讓用路人更有正確的觀念推廣停讓文化並持續和中央地方政府以及民間團體密切合作"},{"start":1984.83,"end":1998.795,"text":"建立良好的用路文化藉由與民間企業全體國民的參與達成2030降低整體以及行人死亡人數50%的目標關於速度管理"},{"start":2000.239,"end":2017.288,"text":"提升道路安全以及行車效率都是政府努力改善交通環境的目標在安全的前提之下建議民眾可以就認為速限設定不合理的路段向道路主管機關提出建議後由主管機關"},{"start":2019.062,"end":2044.342,"text":"就各面向来评估并且调整速限以确保效率以及安全的兼顾行政院于103年核定淡江大桥计划主要的目标希望能够改善淡水台二线逐维路段交通拥塞并且向北延伸台61线快速公路系统以强化北海岸道路功能并且促进区域发展"},{"start":2045.222,"end":2066.273,"text":"主橋工程已經在今年的9月16號順利完成橋的合攏整體進度都在工程的工期裡面在推動當中目前正進行橋面的鋪設以及景觀燈柱的安裝 鎖力調整以及塔吊拆除"},{"start":2068.081,"end":2073.191,"text":"預計完成旅館的程序跟通車的條件之後將會在明年也就是115年的5月9日舉辦通車典禮並在5月12日正式開放通車"},{"start":2081.311,"end":2102.985,"text":"以利民眾體驗淡江大橋完工的成果公路局規劃可開放安全橋面場域辦理通車前體驗活動包括路跑 自行車以及文化展演 音樂會民眾上橋體驗等等的活動將會在明年的5月9號通車典禮之前"},{"start":2103.826,"end":2131.488,"text":"有一段時間可以供地方政府或者是民間團體共同來參與並且規劃辦理活動為了確保淡江大橋通車之後整體周邊交通功能以及順利辦理通車前體驗活動公路局已經跟新北市政府共同成立跨機構的橫向聯繫平台以利中央與地方共同來合作順利推動各項通車之前的活動以上"},{"start":2132.498,"end":2156.975,"text":"是本部對於行人安全改善與速度管理的立場以及決心以及淡江大橋後續通車活動規劃的簡單說明接下來再請本部陸正刀安司吳司長以及公路局林局長分別向各位委員針對兩項報告進行詳細的說明再次感謝各位委員的關心與指教謝謝"},{"start":2161.889,"end":2163.2,"text":"好 我們先請陸正思市長請"},{"start":2170.424,"end":2199.193,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家早今天應邀到貴委員會進行行人優先交通安全行動綱領實施兩年以來改善行人地域的具體成效即臺灣測速照相機密度精準度以及速限制度的精進檢討提出專案報告並就一百一十四年的道路交通安全改善作為一併說明僅此敬請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":2200.546,"end":2218.238,"text":"近年來隨著車輛科技的快速進步國人自用小客車的比例持有比例持續的攀升整體道路交通量較以往明顯增加所以面臨的交通問題也隨之提升其中道路速限議題在國內有高度的關注跟討論"},{"start":2219.399,"end":2240.596,"text":"考量速限的管理是維持行車安全的重要基礎雖然調升速限有助於提升整個運輸的效率可是可能會升高整個事故風險跟事故的嚴重程度因此必須要審慎的評估務必在追求效率的同時也必須考量安全兩者之間要取得適當的平衡"},{"start":2241.457,"end":2254.754,"text":"二 道路安全的防治作為 道路交通安全是民眾關切的重要議題 交通部攜手各部會跟地方政府執行多項的道路交通安全的改善措施 相關的成果分數如下"},{"start":2257.296,"end":2273.264,"text":"113年道路交通安全的改善成果113年道路交通在道路事故上死亡的人數是2950人是近3年的最低另外行人死亡是366人也是自97年來的歷年的最低"},{"start":2274.184,"end":2296.124,"text":"一百一十四年道路交通安全改善成果一百一十四年一到八月的死亡人數是一千八百一十九人行人死亡人數是兩百二十七人都呈現下降的趨勢但是交通部還是會持續努力推動相關的道安的改善措施交通部在一百一十四年強化行人交通安全的事故的防治盡盡作為"},{"start":2297.705,"end":2321.762,"text":"重點分數如下 首先是道安山間增加路口停止線跟行川線的最小距離 其次是省道的路口照明的改善 第三是加強汽車隔熱紙的透光度的管理 二工程面首先是提升 永續提升人行安全計畫 至今年十月底已經完成了一千九百零一處的行人路口改善"},{"start":2323.024,"end":2344.705,"text":"人行道的改善長度是216公里我們也減少了700處的路側障礙物在校園周邊跟行車安全道路上面改善了199處 二推動省道交通工程改善作業 至今年10月底已經完成了4,345處的省道路口改善還有照明強化的路口是291處"},{"start":2346.667,"end":2374.954,"text":"三 完善道安的政策計畫跟法規透過相關的技術標準的檢討精進會議我們跟地方政府還有學界共同確認交通工程的規範等來修正條文的可行性跟精準度三 教育宣導面向依據道路交通法規的修正還有重要的重要的道安的政策等議題交通部規劃了宣導的主題並且針對不同的目標族群辦理宣導作業跟活動"},{"start":2375.934,"end":2390.779,"text":"是監理面在運輸業的管理上面我們定期召開各區定期邀集各區監理所跟地方政府召開檢視業者實施實施情形跟檢討成效並且針對貨運商業跟遊覽車客運業比較有高危險高違規的駕駛人檢討整個專案的調訓"},{"start":2398.041,"end":2413.333,"text":"二 在駕駛訓練部分 辦理機車駕訓輔助跟道安的道路交通安全的駕駛訓練 而且新增了危險感知頻量的體驗題目同時也規劃試辦機車考前的道路訓練跟提供參訓的補助"},{"start":2415.484,"end":2440.982,"text":"三 在速率的 速限的檢討機制的作為上面 在交通事故中速度是直接影響事故的發生的機率 還有嚴重程度的重要因素所以在安全的考量下 交通部跟內政部訂有道路設計的規範依據速限不可以高於設計速率 以及大區段的統一速率原則還有其他的因素來訂定整個道路的速限"},{"start":2441.863,"end":2467.21,"text":"另外為了建立整個樹線檢討的機制交通部公路局已經在一百一十一年完成了檢討國內外道路樹線訂定的原則研究計畫就我國的道路樹線研擬的樹線訂定原則樹線調整因素還有樹線訂定機制跟流程是在地方地方政府的道路樹線調整的部分依據地方的自治法"},{"start":2467.99,"end":2484.097,"text":"地方的道路的規劃建設跟管理都是地方自治的事項但為了協助地方政府來進行道路速限的檢討交通部公路局也把前面剛才所提到的研究計畫函請各個縣市政府作為調整道路速限的參考"},{"start":2485.177,"end":2500.465,"text":"另外為了針對特定的路段的樹線的建議民眾可以透過民意信箱 首長民意信箱建議各個道路主管機關進行檢討另外交通部公路局也建立了我要通報路口改善的網頁"},{"start":2501.565,"end":2518.535,"text":"若民眾對於道路速限有任何的提議也可以透過這個網頁來反映後續將會把相關的建議交給權責機關來處理五 給予交通部落實各項道路交通安全的政策強化性能保護跟事故防止作為以建初步的成效"},{"start":2519.435,"end":2540.762,"text":"我們後續會持續來推動道路交通安全行動方案朝向2030年整體道路事故跟行人死亡人數降低50%的目標邁進另外就道路速限的相關議題因為涉及交通安全跟運輸效率等面向交通部公路局已經建立整個速限的檢討機制跟標準化的流程"},{"start":2541.662,"end":2562.873,"text":"並且提供各縣市政府參考 未來若地方政府對於速限的調整 在實務上有相關的建議或需要支援交通部也會積極提供協助 以其達成兼顧道路安全跟交通效率的目標 以上敬請各委員指教好 謝謝 再請公路局林局長"},{"start":2568.716,"end":2592.63,"text":"主席 各位委員 那以下請就丹江大橋通車活動的規劃辦理進行 進行報告說明丹江大橋主要是為了解決台二線竹尾路段長期這個用塞的問題那這個延伸台六十一線向北這個快速公路的一個系統那另外一個部分的話是強化北海岸地區整體的交通的一個功能"},{"start":2593.11,"end":2621.349,"text":"所以這個淡江大橋興建計畫行政院在103年核定淡江大橋建設計畫那計畫經費是230.38億元由交通部公務局及國土署還有新北市政府三方共同負擔淡江大橋整體工程的一個計畫全長6公里那雙向四車道配置那主橋並預留這個捷運輕軌的系統是一座公路與這個軌道共用的這個"},{"start":2623.43,"end":2649.481,"text":"這一個橋樑系統那這個另外一個部分燈窗大橋也是完善這個區域入網與提升港區運輸效能重要的一個這個工程那本計畫分為三標辦理那第一標第二標都已經通車那我們現在看到第三標是跨淡水河的主橋工程那目前是進度是88.41那全計畫將以明年5月來通車為這個目標"},{"start":2651.582,"end":2674.307,"text":"那丹江大橋的一個這個工程特色的部分主要是由這個普利茲克建築獎得主扎哈帝建築團隊來規劃設計那整個這個橋形的部分是採流線造型跟單塔不對稱斜張橋的一個形式那是兼具工程力學與景觀這一個美學主塔大概這個200多公尺"},{"start":2674.747,"end":2695.918,"text":"那因為要這個考慮巴黎日出及淡水西照視角的這個部分那整個這個塔位的一個這個規劃是有經過特別的規劃那整個這個未來橋的一個系統的話會搭配季節性的燈光設計讓淡江大橋兼具交通功能及這個景觀特色的一個國際地標"},{"start":2697.739,"end":2721.496,"text":"登江大橋工程從施作以來 那各項這個關鍵的構建都依序來做這個完成 包括主塔的建置這個鞋鎖全面的施拉 那在今年9月16號也順利完成全橋合龍 目前正全力鑽桿工進 那後續依序進行橋面固實這個力清鋪設的作業 景觀"},{"start":2722.617,"end":2744.528,"text":"登柱安裝鋼纜鎖力調整還有這個鋼鎖報告高達這個200多公尺塔調拆除及這個全橋載重的一個試驗那後面這個大概明年3月以後全線包括台六十線高架及紮道等等的部分會依序來辦理這個旅館的一個作業那這個時間點會到這個5月上旬"},{"start":2746.929,"end":2761.504,"text":"那所以整個旅館達到這個通車條件之後我們現在預計是在明年5月9號舉辦通車典禮那5月12號正式開放通車那目前針對丹江大橋通車前相關活動的一個這個規劃"},{"start":2762.705,"end":2780.821,"text":"那最主要是這個國人對於這個淡江大橋其實有蠻高的一個這個期待另外一個部分因為淡江大橋這個完工通車之後將成為國門的這個新地標所以當時在規劃的時候也考量到希望說這個民眾在正式通車前可以感受這個淡江大橋的一個結構設計跟河口的一個景觀"},{"start":2784.244,"end":2798.785,"text":"所以公務局將在三階段通車勘驗及調整優化期間在確保場域安全無異的前提下妥善運用可開放的橋面空間及時段來規劃辦理通車前系列體驗的一個活動那"},{"start":2800.487,"end":2817.742,"text":"這個公務局目前規劃的部分大概主要有6項活動那目前包括目前已公告在明年4月18號的路跑活動4月19號的自行車這個活動那其他在規劃中的活動有包括開幕大遊行星空音樂展演通車典禮等這個晚會"},{"start":2818.803,"end":2830.969,"text":"那希望到時可以跟民眾共同來體驗這個淡江大橋的一個這個成果那並藉由這個通俗典禮來表揚參與本大橋的一個工程施工團隊相關的一個人員"},{"start":2832.489,"end":2860.47,"text":"那為了讓這個丹江大橋通車後整體周邊交通功能更加完善而且順利辦理完成相關通車前的這個民眾體驗的一個這個活動公務局跟新北市政府以共同成立跨機關通車系列活動橫向聯繫平臺來分工協力這個合作確保通車前各項活動順利推動並完善這個整體通車之後的交通的一個環境"},{"start":2861.411,"end":2888.474,"text":"最後要跟各位報告的是淡江大橋確實是北臺灣重要的交通建設完工通車後將有效提升區域入網的效率強化北海岸交通韌性並帶動淡水 巴黎及臺北港周邊整體發展工務局將持續依既定時程推動工程最後階段的作業確保明年這個如期如止安全通車的一個目標 以上報告進行指教"},{"start":2890.848,"end":2916.287,"text":"好 謝謝那交通部已經報告完畢那其餘機關所送來的書面報告我們就列入記錄刊登公報那在進入到巡查之前因為今天還有在場委員有新提案那我們一併下午來做逐條討論所以我們先請法案的提案委員來做提案說明請黃建豪委員我們以三分鐘為限好不好 謝謝"},{"start":2923.905,"end":2938.036,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位首長跟委員本期今天提的是道交條例第31支1條的修正草案那當然道交條例第31支1條主要是針對過去比較強調的是開車跟騎車手持手機的相關的罰款"},{"start":2939.097,"end":2957.999,"text":"本年今天提出來是針對開車騎車期間持有香煙抽煙等等這個行為來加重相關的罰款因為我想抽煙本身當然對他個人的行為對他個人健康有影響之外比較多民眾在反映的第一個當然騎車的部分對於周邊的旁邊的這些二手煙的傷害比較大"},{"start":2958.559,"end":2984.31,"text":"另外對於開車騎車的時候他因為點煙 持煙或者是因為香煙掉落等等的有的最近包含說加熱煙包含電子煙等等的管制非常的也沒有很明確所以很多人開車騎車期間可能不只傳統香煙他包含加熱煙包含電子煙等等的都會成為他開車期間分析的原因之一本期引用了2019年日本有一份在日本流行病學雜誌的一個長期研究"},{"start":2984.67,"end":3010.327,"text":"他招募了97000名的日本的居民年齡從40到79歲做了一個20年的1993到2013年長期的追蹤那這邊的這個期刊的論文的最後的結論是比起不吸菸者如果每天吸菸少於20隻者發生交通事故的死亡率比不吸菸者高出32%那如果一天超過20隻就是有眼影重大的這些群體"},{"start":3010.967,"end":3024.771,"text":"他在交通事故開車騎車發生的事故死亡率比不吸菸者高出了54%所以不管從國民健康的角度還是從這個開車騎車用路人安全的角度本席都認為這個開車騎車期間來吸菸或者點菸的行為"},{"start":3029.372,"end":3055.729,"text":"比起这个开车骑车时间持有手机或讲电话的话我想这个等他的这个状况影响交通安全的情况是一致的所以本局认为说在相关的罚还标准上面在开车骑车持有手机罚还3000元但是开车骑车在点烟或抽烟的这个罚还只有600元我想这个相关的罚役距离有点大所以本席把这个相关的罚还提高那以上说明希望这个委员会能够支持以上谢谢"},{"start":3058.8,"end":3085.713,"text":"好 謝謝黃建豪委員提案說明本日會議專題報告之詢答先宣告以下事項一 詢答時間出席委員6分鐘 列席委員4分鐘二 委員發言登記於10點30分截止三 各位委員如有臨時提案請於10點前提出 以便議事人員會診四 休息時間適當時間來宣布首先請登記第一位李昆哲委員發言"},{"start":3092.543,"end":3104.935,"text":"謝謝召委 請一下陳部長還有林文山局長 楊振軍局長還有黃和廷副署長陳部長 林局長 楊局長以及副署長請"},{"start":3110.218,"end":3134.725,"text":"部長好 針對今天質詢的主題在質詢之前我有兩個問題想要先請教一下陳部長就是高鐵現在每天搭乘的人次已經是高達21萬5000人搭乘的人越來越多但是高鐵的行車異常事件也越來越多在11月28"},{"start":3137.898,"end":3156.956,"text":"快要到台中的時候就是1號5車次我也在這一班的車次上面就是說主變電站號稱這個電力的壓降造成雖然電力沒有跳脫但是快到台中站的時候有煞車而且停了一下子才緩緩的進入"},{"start":3158.442,"end":3176.769,"text":"台中車站那車上的乘客大家是議論紛紛然後在12月2號通訊系統的異常雖然有啟動備援機制但是至少有4班次他是延誤超過30分鐘以上影響是超過2000人"},{"start":3178.72,"end":3193.106,"text":"我要提醒部長是說2024年一整年它的行車異常事件有25件但是今年2025年1到11月已經有39件如果再加上12月2號"},{"start":3194.554,"end":3212.629,"text":"就已經有40件但所展現的它已經不是個別事件的問題我認為是系統性 結構性高鐵的行車安全出現了問題來 部長你要怎麼去督促鐵道局還有台鐵高鐵公司來維護這樣的一個基本的行車安全"},{"start":3213.169,"end":3216.771,"text":"是 報告委員這幾年確實我們有觀察到112年有36件113年27件那今年已經加上剛剛委員所說的12月的已經到達40件那我們高鐵也確實營運了將近20年的這個時間我們有些系統"},{"start":3228.798,"end":3251.51,"text":"是不是應該要更新或者是應該要注意它的維修的層面我們近期已經請鐵道局很專注的跟高鐵公司來研討跟研商這個問題這個議題因為這個延誤的狀況越來越多是我們很擔心的一方面是時間上可能會去拖延到影響到民眾行的權利二方面我們也擔心是安全上面會不會有其他的疑慮"},{"start":3252.43,"end":3270.265,"text":"那所以高鐵的車速這麼快的狀況底下我們認為所有的安全的系統跟所有的電控系統跟維修系統都必須要完備也必須要有百分之百的令人信任度這個部分請部長督促鐵道局還有高鐵公司必須要將這個行車的安全"},{"start":3270.965,"end":3300.128,"text":"要嚴謹的來做一個處理跟督促另外國旅的部分部長在11月中旬有提到說在明年要推動這個平日國旅的相關的優惠方案包括平日的住宿優惠方案生日的住宿優惠方案或是遊樂園的留宿方案還有企業員工國內旅遊的獎勵方案還有台灣PASS的平日國旅的相關的優惠方案我現在要請教一下部長"},{"start":3301.068,"end":3325.408,"text":"我們大概什麼時候要實施然後相關的預算你大概有沒有一個來跟社會大眾來做初步的說明跟委員報告對於明年的這個國旅的促進的計畫我們官方署已經列了一些希望能夠擴大內需的一些方案跟計畫我們是很希望預算如果能夠順利通過的話我們希望在明年的三月之後可以開始來實施"},{"start":3326.189,"end":3349.638,"text":"明年3月 那預算的金額大概多少我們整體預算大概是23億左右我們有23億的預算希望鼓勵國人在平日能夠多旅遊在生日能夠多旅遊甚至是遊樂園也希望大家能夠去玩我有兩個細節的問題想要請教一下黃副署長在這邊你們的這個平日住宿的優惠方案"},{"start":3350.659,"end":3357.356,"text":"還有生日的住宿優惠方案是都要登記還要抽籤是不是這樣 那個程序如何進行啊"},{"start":3358.829,"end":3384.183,"text":"是 報告委員那目前平日住宿我們是從4月1號開始那這個部分的話就是要先去做登錄然後是用抽籤的方式那生日的住宿的話是從明年1月1號開始然後每個月會抽出1000名然後每一位都有1200的這樣的一個住宿這個相關在實施之前必須要做好相關的宣導"},{"start":3385.043,"end":3393.034,"text":"不管是細節要盡速的說明資訊也要正確然後相關的程序要盡量的簡單這個要讓民眾樂於接近這樣的相關的一個資訊另外"},{"start":3400.061,"end":3416.53,"text":"這種國旅的優惠方案當然是有助於相關的國內旅遊的一個推動那但是我認為部分措施是不是能夠再加強以生日住宿這個優惠方案來說你每個月抽出一千名的國人"},{"start":3417.31,"end":3439.179,"text":"然後補助是一千兩百元那一年總共才一萬兩千的國人有這樣的一個抽到的機會那總機會也才一千四百四十萬能不能人數增加或者是這個金額增加或者是人數跟金額都增加來說明一下"},{"start":3440.29,"end":3461.146,"text":"是那跟委員報告那目前因為我們是做整體方案的一個規劃那到時候如果說這個方因為最主要是為了鼓勵民眾平日來旅遊住宿然後尤其是在生日的時候也可以來住宿慶生不管是登記的人數或是金額"},{"start":3462.006,"end":3484.626,"text":"能夠增加因為才1440萬而已這個我們來努力看看可不可以再增加幫大家慶生是好事那我也要跟部長跟觀光署來提醒不只是中央來努力的加碼促進國旅而且要要求地方政府也要加碼而且也要要求業者也要加碼中央地方業者"},{"start":3485.106,"end":3507.443,"text":"一起加碼一起來推動國內的旅遊部長最後讓你說明一下只跟委員報告如果立法院支持我們的預算我們預算確定之後我們各個方案都會找地方政府跟我們一些旅行相關的業者大家一起來合作把加碼再做到更大中央政府出一部分的錢地方政府再加碼然後企業再加碼讓民眾可以享受到更好的優惠"},{"start":3508.543,"end":3529.497,"text":"部長最後一點時間我們來討論一下道路安全改善的進度它其實仍然是有待加強那今年的1至8月交通事故的死亡人數是1819人是對比去年同期減少了6.1但是我要提醒部長人數雖然略有這個下降但是"},{"start":3530.137,"end":3546.429,"text":"事故的件數是增加了增加了4994件然後受傷的人數也增加增加了5045人這相關的原因以及要怎麼去處理這個交通部必須要來做一個進一步的處理"},{"start":3547.37,"end":3573.736,"text":"那我們來看看義照市路段的計畫結束未來交通部要怎麼去落實相關的交通安全在過去義照市路段的計畫執行的方式他是由地方縣市政府來提報義照市的路段然後運營所來研議相關的地點跟方案由公路局來進行補助運營所再來追蹤改善的這樣的一個進度"},{"start":3574.216,"end":3601.759,"text":"那這是過去那現在我們要推動區域中心3.0的道安改善計畫各縣市政府各縣市的地方政府主導而且來申請中央的補助那提出改善的地點跟規劃的方案那應援所各區的區域中心來推動改善的這種方案的交流技術的支持還有分析及人員的培訓等等那我要提醒部長就是說"},{"start":3603.2,"end":3617.29,"text":"交通安全改善不只是說只需要經費的一個補助而且是更需要有效的這種改善的方案那過去的改善方案主要是依靠一兆式路段的這種改善的計畫那"},{"start":3618.571,"end":3645.72,"text":"現在區域3.0確實是能夠有效解決道路安全改善的財源跟權責劃分的一個基本的問題但是也面臨新的問題就是說各地縣市政府他們對於交通安全的技術或者是觀念的不同或是改善的意願那這個改善的成效變成是各地方人士人民大家所關切的一個議題那"},{"start":3648.53,"end":3664.082,"text":"為了要確保這些改善的績效通常是需要3到5年的一個追蹤那這個也需要中央來追蹤那區域3.0的道安改善計畫如何確保這些安全改善的目標跟措施能夠落實"},{"start":3665.003,"end":3692.713,"text":"而且維持改善的成效這是一個大家很關心的議題讓你簡單的說明一下是 報告委員考核跟查核的部分中央還是會持續來做雖然說道安3.0之後會有一個區域中心那另外技術面如果需要中央來協助中央也會來做協助那另外經費的補助當然未來地方財源會比較充裕那中央也會有一定的補助的能力那在考核跟查核之後我們會來做後面的這個補助的方案來檢討"},{"start":3695.19,"end":3714.675,"text":"最後一分鐘我有幾個基本建議交通部曾經宣示死亡的人數必須要每年降低5%這是過去我要求的區域中心3.0大安改善計畫在推動地方安全改善的時候也要將死傷人數減少納入具體的一個改善目標"},{"start":3715.635,"end":3734.956,"text":"第二 運營所應該協助各地的縣市政府提出年度道路交通安全執行計畫納入事故分析的結果還有改善需求以及相關的具體措施而且針對人員培訓歷年交通改善的這種情況及追蹤狀況要納入考量"},{"start":3735.536,"end":3760.383,"text":"還有另外針對交通改善資源比較少的區域要進行盤點來納入考量避免資源比較少的區域或縣市改善資源不足的這種情況這個請部長全力的一個督促好沒問題謝謝委員好謝謝接下來再請廖先祥委員質詢"},{"start":3772.358,"end":3773.986,"text":"要麻煩邀請我們交通部陳部長陳部長請"},{"start":3779.366,"end":3805.919,"text":"我們警政署我們交通組副組長陳副組長謝謝這部長這個是今天要跟您討論這個測速道廂的問題我想在上次院會的時候可能我講太多了沒有讓你有多說的一個機會我想的訴求很簡單我們交通部能不能訂定一個設置這個超速取締設備的一個設置原則那不曉得經過這幾天的一個沉澱之後您有沒有一些想法"},{"start":3806.659,"end":3832.559,"text":"跟委員報告這個設置執法面執法面其實是在內政部在警政署當然在警政署那實際上您也很理解就是說實際的設置大部分都是地方政府跟警政署一起在做跟警察單位在做那交通部在這個部分比較沒有做但您的提醒就是說針對它的設置的原則的這個部分我們可能要跟執法單位來討論因為過去交通部不負責執法"},{"start":3834.12,"end":3855.721,"text":"那执法面是内政部警政署我们也要看警政署他们的想法因为这样讲很简单执法是必然要做的我们希望大家都守规矩守规定那执法的层面有两个不是人力就是科技大概就是这两个层面那这个两个层面要怎么调配其实不是交通部能够决定的"},{"start":3856.876,"end":3871.232,"text":"那我先請我們警政署我剛剛有看一下我們的報告我們這邊警政署在你們報告中是不是有提到我們會針對測數的一個取締來去做一些規範性的原則的調整"},{"start":3873.935,"end":3890.595,"text":"各位 針對裡面的條文再說明一下報告委員 委員好目前我們的作為程序是取締一般那個交通違規的部分那裡面有包括到測試抓槍器整個一個設置它有幾個基本的原則大概有四個原則那未來我們會再"},{"start":3892.077,"end":3894.999,"text":"所以我們警政署原則上有要去做一些相關的一個調整好 那我再請部長一下部長"},{"start":3914.081,"end":3925.617,"text":"這個其實警政單位是執法單位規定其實都是我們交通部訂的其實對於道路的一個交通的安全我們交通部一定比警政署還來得了解跟專業這沒有錯吧"},{"start":3928.025,"end":3940.581,"text":"報告委員在執法的層面交通部沒有權利去要求警政單位我只是請教我們部長針對交通安全的專業我們交通部一定比警政署專業我們測速照相機設置的目的是為了什麼"},{"start":3944.105,"end":3959.902,"text":"是為了交通安全嘛 對不對是 我們希望可以更安全那既然是為了交通安全那在交通安全上面我們交通部又比警政署來專業那這件事情我先謝謝警政署願意去做一些調整但是這件事情我認為這應該是我們交通部的一個"},{"start":3961.461,"end":3986.703,"text":"應該更有能力來做這件事情因為包括從道路的一個速率的一個訂定從道路的設計然後到了這個速率的訂定其實都是我們交通部在訂警察機關他只是針對違規去錯取締而這個違規的取締的方式能不能對道路的交通安全有改善這是我們的目的有沒有改善其實我們交通部應該會更為專業這沒錯吧"},{"start":3988.921,"end":4013.162,"text":"報告委員您剛剛所說的這個速限的設置那個也不是全部都在交通部百分之九十幾以上的道路是地方政府去決定那個速率我們交通部也在這次的報告有提到說我們交通部有要研擬一個速率的設置原則所以說我們交通部這一點也在努力速率設置的原則在一百一十二年我們應該有委外的一個案子有做過一個是測速一個是一個是測速一個是限速兩個有點分開"},{"start":4014.903,"end":4029.855,"text":"我們這邊是決定速率的原則跟討論速率的原則實權還是在地方政府但是跟委員報告就如同我們的廁所照相一樣我一直希望你設置原則我知道廁所照相不是你設的但是"},{"start":4030.555,"end":4050.357,"text":"我們交通部是一個交通安全維持的最高的安全的指導機關可是執法層面全部都是在內政部的警政署我們交通部沒有負責執法對我們沒有權利因為我們沒有權利要求哪一個路段你可以執法哪一個路段你不能執法對交通部來講所有的路段大家都要照規則下去走"},{"start":4051.078,"end":4077.276,"text":"我不可以叫警政單位說你這一段不能執法所以就兩個問題一個速限嘛對不對那一個是一個是速限那另外一個是那個設置的部分嘛您說的那個是執法那執法的部分執法的部分警政署我先謝謝剛剛謝謝警政署了但是一樣強調我們的測速照相機是為了交通安全去設置的取締不是目的嘛對不對所有的執法都是為了交通安全維護安全維持那"},{"start":4077.876,"end":4097.964,"text":"我們交通部應該要更有能力知道我們測速照相機大概會在哪一種的類型情況下的設置對於我們的交通安全是有提升的一個實際的功能其實我在上一次的質詢您沒來上次我問這個同仁我們測速照相機是在道路在做規劃的時候"},{"start":4099.901,"end":4126.371,"text":"就決定要在哪邊設了嗎還是事後才去設大部分的情況都是事後才去設但是這個邏輯有點奇怪我們在做一條道路的時候我們應該就要知道說這條道路它在哪一個區段我們認為它是相對的危險的或者是未來事故率可能會比較高一點的那我們應該是做一個提前的預防但現在的現況是我們這邊發生事故我們就在這邊設置一個測速抓上機但是違規它是有隨機性的"},{"start":4127.421,"end":4150.418,"text":"對不對所有的道路每一個路段都要遵守規則下去走道路設計的時候不會去設計說在哪一個路段可以執法哪一個路段這個又牽扯到這個大區段疏離原則啦對不對越扯越多啦但是哪邊可以設測速上機對交通安全有提升我認為交通部是可以提供相關的一個指導"},{"start":4151.875,"end":4170.905,"text":"那個是執法層面委員所有的道路不管哪一段速限是50就是該走50沒有說哪裡可以設測速照相就要走50沒有設測速照相不用走50沒有這個道理的法規是這樣限定但是因為這是因為我們大區段的速率訂定原則好啦那我跟部長"},{"start":4171.545,"end":4193,"text":"提另外一件事交通部就只負責這一塊 執法面真的不是交通部啦我上次有跟那個同仁問過我們有沒有對這個自然流速去做一個統計大概在自然流速下面有多少的車輛是違規的部長我上次說啊如果說有50%的民眾超速的話那是我們的民眾愛超速還是道路設計的一個問題還是書憲的一個問題我發現我講的太保守了"},{"start":4196.94,"end":4210.553,"text":"公路局在兩三年前曾經做過一個報告部長你猜猜看在一個限速70的一個省道大概百分之多少的民眾他是符合速率的規定多少的民眾是超速的這個我不曉得你不曉得我說50 50太保守你猜一下"},{"start":4211.838,"end":4236.211,"text":"我不曉得 先委員指教我看那個圖表啦 大概是7% 8%啦一條道路只有7%到8%的民眾在正常的速率行駛下面是合法的然後你要在那邊設特殊照相機取締民眾違規這聽起來問題很大吧委員問題很大吧委員如果說你希望他們降速你應該用工程的手段"},{"start":4237.245,"end":4261.639,"text":"對不對 無論是標線或是實體的設施而不是訂另一個不合理的線數然後再來做取締這是民眾最為詬病的那我們為什麼線數會低是因為彎道嘛 是因為斜坡嘛不是因為某一個路段它真的開這麼快是危險是因為大區段的一個原因而導致部分路段它可能開得也很順 它會超速那你在這些路段去測速測速當機它就不是為了安全嘛你現在是要問我還是要問內政部問你啊問我我就跟你說過執法不在我這邊"},{"start":4268.229,"end":4285.905,"text":"執法是為了道路交通安全嘛是不是委員 我跟您溝通過很多次了執法是內政部在負責執法哪裡設測速照相是地方政府決定的所以它會一個更大的範圍包括速限的一個訂定是否合理那這個問題就太大了"},{"start":4287.632,"end":4301.07,"text":"這問題太大我們沒有辦法在這邊討論但是車速相機這個也是可以討論的啊但是要找地方政府一起來討論我跟您說過了大部分百分之九十幾以上的道路的速限是地方政府在決定不是我們交通部在決定啊我們今天在這邊是討論問題是今天"},{"start":4304.502,"end":4326.55,"text":"我們都知道車速交通機其實大概都是警政機關設置的那民眾對這東西有這麼多的討論我們是道路安全這個守護得最高的一個機關你今天可以選擇當英雄來解決這件事情你也可以繼續把這件事情推給別人以上 謝謝這個不是推是誰管就是誰管這不是推 委員好 謝謝"},{"start":4350.461,"end":4367.781,"text":"好 謝謝我們廖宣祥委員執行完畢現在請我們洪孟楷召委執行主席謝謝 我們麻煩請陳部長交通部陳部長"},{"start":4373.444,"end":4381.322,"text":"好 部長 部長早部長本席先給您看一下這個照片歷史照片回顧一下這是哪邊 看得出來嗎"},{"start":4382.725,"end":4405.777,"text":"看不出來比較遠抱歉沒有打在後面不好意思關渡大橋42年前1983年的10月關渡大橋正式通車的時候淡水那邊連接兩岸造成大家非常期待然後甚至橋上有很多的慶祝活動看到很多民俗活動表演"},{"start":4406.397,"end":4424.611,"text":"甚至爸爸帶小朋友一起上橋來拍照走在橋面上這是42年前的一個畫面一樣淡江大橋現在明年5月會正式通車也是大家期待已久了北台灣很重要的一個公共工程"},{"start":4425.43,"end":4453.567,"text":"交通部出資三分之一內政部出資三分之一新北市政府出資三分之一這其實是好事而且公路局的同仁不管是歷任局長陳文瑞局長現在高工局但以前他還是公路局局長現在林福山公路局局長還有已經退休的幾位局長其實大家都很用心那我們也希望是好事不要變成是壞事可是怎麼最近這一個禮拜看到好像部長跟侯市長有點隔空的在互相講"},{"start":4454.648,"end":4479.168,"text":"到底是溝通不順利還是怎麼樣不然為什麼我們在地方的鄉親會覺得是說我們沒有參與到來 部長簡單說明好不好好 跟委員報告其實這個應該都是誤解我覺得如果有想法大家可以來溝通那想法如果溝通不了才會有情緒但是目前為止新北市政府並沒有提出他們想要做哪些活動而公路局不接受的這個狀況所以這個應該沒有這個問題但委員剛剛所提到"},{"start":4481.75,"end":4501.409,"text":"這個是一個很重要的重點因為全國大家矚目所以活動之前的半年大家有想法這絕對是好事那我們也因為新北市政府開始提出想法我們也趕快想辦法把細節討論一下包括委員您是在地的委員我們也希望說委員可以提供一些意見讓在地的民眾可以來參與這樣更好"},{"start":4502.87,"end":4523.418,"text":"那也跟委員報告我們其實原本公路局自己所設定的這些活動裡面有相當多的地方的社團跟地方的民眾其實有參與包含我們有一個音樂會他那個淡水的國小也有來參加那個合唱團也會來參加那之前大家在討論的那個路跑的部分他的裁判的部分其實是由淡水的這個運動會體育會他們來推薦的"},{"start":4527.6,"end":4554.076,"text":"那另外我們其中有一天還有一個健行的活動也是有開幕大邀請地方的這些社團都有參加那另外還有一天的健行活動也是由地方的慢跑協會來舉辦好所以本席現在在講是說非常多的過程其實本席因為已經在這個選區五年多的時間所以你剛講每一件事情我也都有協助來參與不管是說要溝通要協調但是這一次的過程在什麼"},{"start":4554.736,"end":4571.591,"text":"在於是說當一出來的時候你們已經規劃好可是新北市政府會認為是說好像沒有再進一步的協調不過本席現在講還有半年時間如同剛剛部長講的本席也認同就是還有半年左右時間我們現在能夠更精細的規劃讓這件事情能夠更好"},{"start":4572.131,"end":4588.4,"text":"最多人參與讓地方有光榮感以及大家未來對於淡江大甲好了之後能夠解決地方的交通需求這才最重要是沒錯所以幾個部分我之前有提到是說路跑跟自行車因為有限定名額它其實是有報名費的但有限定名額可是現在"},{"start":4589.02,"end":4602.853,"text":"考量安全以及整體的容量的情況有沒有可能再加開名額再給民眾來報應跟委員報告我們其實總共會有三個禮拜可以辦活動基本上可以滿足所有民眾想要上橋"},{"start":4603.914,"end":4629.867,"text":"去參與這次的慶典的這個需求但是它的這個容納的這個限量大概是7000人是安全是一個安全的數字那再上去其實我們就擔心有一些危險不是承載的問題而已還有管理的問題還有就是說如果發生了意外的時候我們的救援的車輛要怎麼上去的問題所以我們目前設定是7000人對都有評估過但是現在是沒有辦法你是因為安全的問題沒有辦法"},{"start":4630.507,"end":4658.995,"text":"是 因為安全的問題那另外就是說地方上的需求也好或者其實坦白講全國民眾都想去當然那我們用兩個禮拜的時間把活動分散開來那大家都有機會來參與大家都有機會來參加這個是最好的好 那本席之前提過說那這樣的話在路跑之前其實地方的民眾也很期待因為施工在地方大車進出都在地方所以巴黎地區淡水地區的鄉親大家很期待因為看了十幾年了"},{"start":4659.615,"end":4682.139,"text":"終於看到它完成了那現在我們希望是說規劃地方鄉親能夠先有上橋體驗的部分這能夠一起納入做討論嗎跟委員報告這個部分我們會來研究跟討論好那不過因為我們原本的活動也就是委員在建議的部分讓地方的民眾有一天或者是一段時間讓他們可以上橋去體驗一下甚至拍照一下這個本來就在我們的規劃裡面"},{"start":4683.44,"end":4699.92,"text":"所以我們就來爭取這個部分至少讓地方民眾因為地方這一次特別講到是說路跑也沒有預留地方名額自行車也沒有預留地方名額但當然也有網路上我們也看到消息講是說台北馬拉松他可能也沒有限制說只能台北報名"},{"start":4700.781,"end":4720.921,"text":"萬金石馬拉松可能也沒有限制說只有萬金石的相信報名所以說這一些部分那本席也了解未來譬如說淡江大小完工之後相信這可能也會變成是各大賽事或者是說各大社團活動申請的部分所以說未來也很多活動只是當然大家也都有一個打卡"},{"start":4721.942,"end":4743.096,"text":"搶先的一個心態那最重要的就如同本席剛剛給您秀出來的照片42年前就是所有淡水人跟巴黎人的回憶記憶就是關渡大橋的通車大家能夠互相走這個是鄉親的期待所以請盡力促成可以嗎一定會來滿足地方的需求好一定滿足地方需求謝謝部長部長我再利用兩分鐘的時間跟您討論一下剛剛其實"},{"start":4746.098,"end":4769.091,"text":"本席坐在這邊聽你跟廖先祥委員我覺得有點沒有對焦其實廖委員他非常清楚知道說裁罰是警政單位道路設計是交通單位他也清楚可是我覺得他提出的問題以及最近有藝人在講是說全台灣的測速照相設置太多多到比國防設施"},{"start":4770.111,"end":4799.153,"text":"多的比監獄設施都還要多這引以為國恥你也有看到這個評論可是每一個國家的監獄都不會比這個數字好像多部長這個是藝人的評論但現在本席想要強調一個部分在於是一個道路到底它設數限多少這個定是由交通部門定不管是交通部不管是地方的交通單位都是由交通部門那你為什麼會在這個地方定60定80你要有理由"},{"start":4800.549,"end":4827.319,"text":"因為你訂出來的60 80的一個速限之後如果說超過了才會有警政單位去做裁罰對不對但是你事前的定位有沒有符合實際的需求所以剛剛廖委員也提出一個數據以及我們大家常常在講很多人常常在罵一個什麼就是說這個地方就是筆直的路可是到最後它的速限相對不符合大多數人的駕駛習慣的時候"},{"start":4828.76,"end":4857.746,"text":"你就會變成在那裡有測速照相就變政府搶錢所以回歸最原始的根本就是如果說那個道路它的是樹線在那個數值上面是安全的那我們想要問的是政府部門為什麼會定的樹線往往都比一般的駕駛人的感受來的低這個是一個重點那能不能有所調整跟實際去看那個道路的狀況來符合最安全因為它是一個Match點嘛"},{"start":4859.209,"end":4888.188,"text":"安全跟速度會有一個match點它應該是一個實際的作為所以說國外才會有所謂的85分法就是85%的駕駛者認為說在這個道路上如果開多少的速限是安全的那應該就以這一個為基準當標準這是國外現在已經看到我相信你們應該要比我更了解跟專業才對那但是國內往往不是這樣台灣過去有很多的道路往往就是我這條路出來之後我就定一個60"},{"start":4890.229,"end":4918.14,"text":"60差不多啦然後就定60那如果說有地方因為發生了車禍因為發生了什麼情況就來會刊檢討那不然降為50好了不然降為40好了那就沒有一個科學的標準跟數據去支撐說為什麼要降為50降為40以至於降為50 40之後如果再有測速照相那那個地方平常的開車會相對比較快而造成大家就認為說政府搶錢"},{"start":4919.588,"end":4949.348,"text":"部長您可以理解本席剛剛講這一段話我相當理解也跟委員報告數十年來台灣的道路的設計跟速限的規範當然有一套標準不可能是憑感覺如果是憑感覺這個國家大概已經亂掉了所以他們其實都有一定的速率在規定例如說非都市地區可能是由交通部這邊有一個設定那另外都市的部分是由國土署那邊有一套的設定規則那每一段道路路會越蓋越好"},{"start":4949.948,"end":4966.857,"text":"這個沒有問題會越來越質你講的本質都理解其實我覺得現在重點在於是因為您剛也講過去幾十年而且有兩三個單位有交通部門有內政部門等去設計道路但原則都差不多對 道路的越來越多"},{"start":4967.957,"end":4991.35,"text":"樣態越來越不同其實現在大家回歸的點就是說當已經測速照向全台灣有三萬多隻然後還有就說道路的設計的時候是不是能夠啟動做一個通盤檢討以一樣的標準再去檢視一下說現在到底有沒有不符合時宜或者是部長您聽一下或者是我就列出譬如說各縣市"},{"start":4992.583,"end":5016.588,"text":"全各縣市測速照相違規的前10名或前20名那針對前10名前20名來去檢視看看說那一些測速照相合不合理因為他會在那個地方有很多的測速那就當然要去看測速照相合不合理不是由交通部來決定所以有可能是安全性如果說是安全性的話我沒有意見因為本來就要保證國人的安全"},{"start":5017.008,"end":5036.638,"text":"但如果說它不是安全性而是那個地方本身就有瑕疵或是本身就會有一些不同的狀況而導致於說在那邊特別容易被拍到那我們要的不是只是罰納稅人的錢我們要的應該是保障大家的行車安全就不要讓大家到最後到那個地方之後就擊殺因為罰怕了"},{"start":5039.479,"end":5057.086,"text":"而過了之後又加速而是應該是檢討那個地區有沒有什麼狀況部長能不能針對這個部分您剛也講就說廖委員這邊也講到是說其實各縣市設置那能不能交通部以一個主管機關中央主管機關來找各縣市交通"},{"start":5058.127,"end":5073.108,"text":"交通單位來開會針對這個議題我想這也不是一天兩天但是針對這個議題來做一個討論能夠怎麼樣有效的去檢討抓出現在可能藏有的漏洞好 各位委員報告"},{"start":5073.988,"end":5089.677,"text":"公路體系我們自己管的公路體系已經通盤檢討了幾次那這個部分我們盡量朝合理化那另外如果地方上有不合理的部分其實民眾也可以提出來或民意代表也可以提出來因為大部分我剛剛有講過百分之九十幾的道路是地方政府所管的"},{"start":5090.197,"end":5116.514,"text":"那委員剛剛的提醒希望我們能夠通知地方政府叫他們做一個通盤的檢討這個沒有問題我們來通知他們請他們跟這個包含內政部警政署的設置的這個方式來做一個通盤檢討我們來跟他們溝通看他們願不願意做一樣的原則啦部長願意要做交通部門你是中央主管機關要做大家絕對不會不願意做其實你有一個通則或說你有一個"},{"start":5117.656,"end":5125.889,"text":"辦法出來之後讓大家去做要求甚至本席剛剛講嘛這是一個粗淺的概念但我相信民眾是有感的"},{"start":5127.318,"end":5154.686,"text":"你當一個地方如果一天它發生車禍的比例跟它被罰測速照相的比例不符合正比的時候可能有個地方到最後現在都不會發生車禍了可是每天都有上千張上萬張的測速照相在那邊被拍的時候那就代表說那個地方可能樹線調製的不合理或者是說那邊的道路設計不合理而不是說每個人經過都要超速我們應該是要這樣思考吧"},{"start":5156.516,"end":5179.71,"text":"部長是本席最後echo一下剛剛廖委員的話是要再更積極一點中央管原則方向地方管執行這個是大家理解的狀況但是不是說這樣子所以說中央就原則方向反正我訂出來在那邊你們自己看那去看沒關係政府是一體的大家常講"},{"start":5180.911,"end":5207.093,"text":"那地方也有執政黨也有在野黨但我們現在不分黨派因為我覺得交通委員會通常都不分黨派來討論我們要討論是民眾的疑慮跟民眾的問題以及我們怎麼解決以及看到國外怎麼設計那我們來思考好的我們把它留下來壞的我們不要您說到國外怎麼設計您剛剛講V85的這個設置在世界衛生組織有一個報告他直接就寫明他直接建議V85不應該作為設定安全速限的主要工具"},{"start":5208.374,"end":5233.277,"text":"那另外針對速度管理的部分我也跟您但是也有國外做參考嘛不長沒有問題地廣人稀的國家可以我們周邊的國家新加坡日本跟南韓都不是這樣我們是地狹人稠的國家是不一樣的原則我也希望交通部門交通部門要去理解跟交通部門要拿專業來說服全國民眾我常在講如果說一個地方你的專業是可以說服民眾的話任何"},{"start":5235.802,"end":5246.205,"text":"有任何狀況你們可以有堅持你的立場為什麼很多的道路是設計50跟60的時數或70來70%的時數如果撞到人死亡率是99%本席現在要的是你跟全國國人來交代跟說明"},{"start":5253.887,"end":5268.899,"text":"部長我們進一步因為這個議題這個議題也不是一兩天的時間但是本席願意很開放的態度來跟您做討論本席也反映很多的民意因為今天不是只是單親北市的問題我相信中南部可能會有更多這樣子的狀況"},{"start":5269.96,"end":5282.055,"text":"那這些都是你應該要去掌握也因此本期剛才會建議的方式找縣市政府交通單位共同來討論針對這個部分能夠來做改善或者能夠來個檢討的部分應該要來進行我們來做檢討好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":5303.496,"end":5328.825,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來再請林國成委員繼續好 謝謝主席請交通部陳部長來 陳部長請好 部長早 委員好"},{"start":5330.069,"end":5338.917,"text":"我想因為交通的問題啊當然千頭萬系啦說實在的也不是一朝一日但是問題的製造是非常環雜的"},{"start":5340.84,"end":5363.112,"text":"我有看到你們的報告跟有關單位的報告也是這兩年來行人地域的改善當然行政院也充分的給三個單位一個內政部 一個交通部一個是教育部其實教育部他要負責的就是往下雜耕的教育那是非常重要"},{"start":5363.852,"end":5382.693,"text":"所以我們要學習日本他從小就教導小孩子要如何過馬路如何分辨交通的對跟錯可不可以這個我們要多多學習人家可是我看到這個報告交通部這裡是有做"},{"start":5386.096,"end":5404.803,"text":"那內政部這裡也有做但是我還是建議要協調教育部的部分往下雜跟的教育部分要更落實一點這個才有辦法去達到交通改變觀念改變 交通就會改變"},{"start":5405.743,"end":5434.76,"text":"那交通改變當然交通就沒有生命之危險所以我想部長你同意本席對於這個看法吧報告委員相當同意啦這個部分我們在道安的這個委員會的過程當中教育部長其實也有列席那我們也一直在拜託教育單位可以來協助那當然交通部也是責無旁貸我們會提供一些教材的資源跟一些教育的這個專業的知識給教育部那我們希望能夠更落實到兒童的教育"},{"start":5435.18,"end":5463.252,"text":"跟學員的教育這個部分本席還是拜託部長你們提供給教育部的時候那個資料提供一下你不要只有一位委託的我們的路老師就可以解決啦不是這樣啦有時候我們下情上達然後名義代表老百姓給我們的意見才是意見才是意見所以我是覺得用路人的心聲駕駛人的需求"},{"start":5463.972,"end":5482.973,"text":"這才是這個交通要制定法令的一個基本的概念所以部長我還是希望這個提供給我們本委員所有的委員來做參考 好不好那另外一個我還是要建議剛剛我們幾位委員同仁我是接著他們討論的其實"},{"start":5487.196,"end":5512.142,"text":"這個科技執法沒有人會反對但是要注意準確度的問題這個內政部在執法的當中當然這個是牽涉到地方政府啦要經過你們設定標準然後地方政府他們去規劃他們去執行但是不要忘了你還是要督促他的準確度的問題"},{"start":5514.287,"end":5529.135,"text":"幾例 現在有兩部車聘請然後它科系指法是固定的鏡頭結果兩部 兩部都開到底哪一部超速 不曉得所以準確度確實是有問題"},{"start":5531.393,"end":5547.685,"text":"這個部長我要拜託你要監督地方政府跟那個這個準確度一定要去執行不要兩部車並行然後兩部都開到底我沒有超速啊是那一部超速甲車超速或乙車超速"},{"start":5548.385,"end":5572.217,"text":"不知但是兩個都開這個是不公平的所以我為什麼要要求準確度的問題這個部長提供給你做一個政策性改進的一個參考另外一個就是必要性必要性當然你明明知道它是下滑的波段結果你去設一個快速"},{"start":5572.597,"end":5600.662,"text":"所以這個就是必要性不足的地方應該也要檢討所以我是給你建議建議這兩點特別要去注意這些我想市長的部分這裡可能我們制定法令的時候當然會牽涉地方政府跟執行單位他們去設計的一個準則所以只要發現這個問題我們要稍微去人性化的調整這是有必要的"},{"start":5601.462,"end":5620.172,"text":"那最後一個我還是以重心長建議部長淡江大橋確確實實大家都知道中央非常困難的情況之下他才去落成所以你難怪我們洪昭維他一直在關心我們每一次看到報章雜誌"},{"start":5621.733,"end":5646.506,"text":"在那邊爭功毀業我們這看得很難過其實我們是肯定地方政府的我們肯定中央政府的這是共同努力的結果所以我要拜託我要拜託部長在這個部分你特別要留意一下尊重地方的權利跟尊重地方政府的意見這是非常重要的沒有指責誰對誰錯"},{"start":5648.527,"end":5666.47,"text":"一個政府就是政府中央政府也是政府地方政府也是政府所以我要拜託這件事不要讓我們看到報紙就是在那邊爭功毀業這個沒有意思大家都知道是中央政府做的地方政府沒有能力做這些報告委員 交通部沒有爭過"},{"start":5668.031,"end":5692.623,"text":"從來沒有在爭好啦我是很善意的提醒部長啦不要一個很好的事情變成我也認為這個是國家的大喜事啦大家就要有辦喜事的心態部長因為我時間良心的建議都把我時間用掉了那我要回歸正題來這個國光啊國光交通啊"},{"start":5694.231,"end":5721.136,"text":"這個污染基隆第七跟汐止第七這個問題部長雖然國光公司是我們交通事業但是這個部分當然是環保署他要管可是不要忘了這裡面有一個重點如果假設國光保養廠是偷盜這個油你們現在有什麼監督機制現在保養廠的監督機制我請局長"},{"start":5722.578,"end":5747.967,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為確實陳如剛剛委員所提到的部分就是說國光整個公司裡面需要交通部特許的事有關於公共運輸的部分那當然後面這些保養廠的那種部分的話它的這個就是許可還有監督管理的部分這個是屬於那是經濟部啦你不要跟我講這些啦我說現在當然這個部分啦我接下來還要談就是這個部分你們現在怎麼處理啦"},{"start":5749.257,"end":5774.243,"text":"這個部分我們關切我們比較關切的一個部分當然就是說保養廠沒有相關這些污水處理的那個我告訴你你不要因為我不會指責你們就事論事本來環保偷渡的問題本來環保署就要去處理但是你們是交通目的事業主管機關所以我要你們的就是不要放著不管這個本位主義不關我的事"},{"start":5775.023,"end":5800.818,"text":"我就不管 所以我還是希望要監督因為所有的路權是掌握在我們手上配合度不高 或者它是違規違法那你的路線我就給你 該取消就取消本來你們掌握這些行政決定權啊所以確定我不是在跟你拒絕但是這個事情還是要監督還是要繼續努力好 接下來"},{"start":5803.417,"end":5830.608,"text":"國光公司已經三度欠薪了我一向不管在任何單位我非常重視的是勞工的權利領不到薪資 欸 三度欠薪欸 局長我知道你們都要接不下去啦國光的問題當然事情也很多第一個 勞保會他們都不繳欸你們有沒有去查第二個 你們補助八千塊他也是失吞欸"},{"start":5832.837,"end":5848.691,"text":"現在比較嚴重的現在他們最嚴重的是工會裡面這些駕駛員準備要罷工那罷工以後當然就是我們交通主管機關"},{"start":5851.164,"end":5878.055,"text":"是有關啊 可是罷工的問題當然是勞動部的事可是你不能說勞動部的事影響我交通事業的正常行駛啊所以 柏中這我這樣跟你檢記啦把實情告訴你們為什麼會欠工資啊為什麼勞保不繳啊為什麼說實在的會侵占人家的補助費 為什麼"},{"start":5879.435,"end":5896.602,"text":"來 柏中 你有沒有掌握跟委員報告我們大概在擔心跟理解國光的財務狀況的時間差不多已經接近一年了差不多一年前我們就已經有差不多關注到他的財務的問題那我們也有拜託公路局要緊盯著他的財務的狀況"},{"start":5897.982,"end":5924.022,"text":"甚至是我們已經開始做到了一些路線的調整因為我們也擔心說如果國光有哪一天突然沒有辦法繼續運行的話有沒有其他人能夠接手所以路線的部分我們也在協助他做調整有些路權我們該不給就不給了由其他的客運公司來接手那我們目前也是緊盯著他的薪資的狀況還有他的財務的狀況那我們能夠提供協助的當然會提供協助不過對交通部來講更大的責任是什麼"},{"start":5924.502,"end":5949.747,"text":"就是所有的這些路權他在開的那個路線我們要保障民眾的權益那也就是說他不能開的時候我們要馬上有人可以接手這對我們來講是更關鍵的所以交通部在一年以前我們就開始在做這方面的規劃繼續監督啦好不好最後一點我要提醒一下我們車禍裡面我也要拜託你們在做分析研究的時候"},{"start":5950.527,"end":5973.706,"text":"老人發生死亡率特別高這個問題不要又靠陸老師了我們要做一個研究所以我們交通研究所這個要多研究所以上次我也跟他講研究出來要給傑策做一個有效的改善所以我們的老人家發生車禍"},{"start":5974.867,"end":5997.334,"text":"的這種比例非常之高所以要拜託部長拜託我們局長等等這個師長你們在研究這個的時候要特別把這個納入這個老人家為什麼會死亡率會這麼高到底他是不懂交通或者他是什麼原因要把它研究出來這樣未以籌謀才有辦法做改進好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":6002.605,"end":6021.453,"text":"好 接下來再請黃建豪委員質詢那我們先宣告一下等一下林俊憲委員質詢完畢之後我們休息十分鐘來好 謝謝主席主席 我們一樣請陳士凱陳部長好 部長請"},{"start":6029.198,"end":6046.472,"text":"委員好部長早部長今天要討論這個所謂的測速照相的問題我想先一開始請教一下部長您這一生有沒有收過超速罰單當然有收過有在開車的人都會收到比較多那你超速當下收到的時候你有認得到你超速嗎"},{"start":6048.08,"end":6065.566,"text":"認知到超速對 就是你被你當時收到法案找你超速我說你在開車當下的時候你應該也不是故意超速的應該不會認知到自己超速好 部長 謝謝這樣就能夠苦民說苦你就能夠體會我們為什麼今天要討論這議題我們先看一下這交通部的過去的統計"},{"start":6067.973,"end":6086.098,"text":"114年1月到8月全國的這個造勢事故噪音統計裡面1到9名跟超速都沒有什麼直接相關報案說浩子路口轉彎車未讓直行車是最高導致小停車事故的原因右轉彎未依規定是第二名未保持行車距離是第三名等等等等"},{"start":6086.718,"end":6112.633,"text":"那根據交通部2020年的統計超速大概佔全部交通事故主因的大概2.13%那當然後續沒有找到相關的統計資料所以沒辦法提出來討論所以今天本席為什麼今天在這邊提出來就是因為我相信包含部長在內包含本席在內我們當初不小心超速所以收到罰單的時候我也不是故意的我也不是一定要我也不是在競訴那也沒有真的造成用路人的這個安全的損傷所以說為什麼今天要討論這問題"},{"start":6115.554,"end":6124.24,"text":"這個部長你知道全台灣這個數字比較痛比較麻煩比較難整理那你知道全台灣到底有多少這個測速照相機嗎固定式測速照相機這個我不曉得"},{"start":6125.12,"end":6151.019,"text":"本席在這個政府資訊公開網一個一個縣市一個縣市去找然後包含說這個公路還有這個省道國道然後跟地方政府合計起來如果統計沒錯的話2025年台灣總共大概有2500個固定式測速照相機全台灣各地方政府加中央等等的大概2500個測速照相機那所以按照這個比例我想這個密度來講其實算以全球來講也算是相對比較高"},{"start":6151.96,"end":6177.738,"text":"那為什麼今天所以為什麼會講這個問題就是說今天包含說我們看到的這個改善交通事故的原因跟測速照相跟超速它沒有因為你們在一開始報告覺得說這個超速等等的原因是不是可能會造成事故會跟事故造成交通事故的主因之一可是就數據統計上跟你們各家的這個統計看起來兩者之間並沒有所謂的因果關係"},{"start":6179.039,"end":6205.797,"text":"所以到底這個政策有沒有要調整的空間報告委員您所提出來的這個數據是在車禍當下的統計數據車禍當下那在車禍當下為了要趕快快速排除有時候我們在登記的那個過程當中不會問得那麼細但我另外一個數據也提供給委員就是交通事故之後有回來復印回來復印就是說對於那個測量或什麼有意見的回來復印之後就會比較詳細去調查整個車禍的這個噪音"},{"start":6209.099,"end":6232.091,"text":"那這個比例看起來的話是百分之二十是因為超速如果有回來複製的話真正認真去研析之後發現是百分之二十並不是這個百分之二所以百分之二十才是比較精準的數字那另外針對這個超速與否的這個速度的限制我跟委員報告我剛剛也跟召委報告過我再講完整一點"},{"start":6233.752,"end":6256.632,"text":"台灣我當然不一定是交通很專業的人我們交通部裡面有非常多專業的人過去長時間這樣子的設置這樣的規則跟規定有它的一定的邏輯跟道理包含工程上面的邏輯包含這個幾何路型的邏輯等等我一個很簡單的數字跟委員報告我自己開車有時候也會覺得這道路很寬闊怎麼會限制50怎麼會限制60"},{"start":6258.914,"end":6277.711,"text":"那現場委員在這我講就大家一起聽因為其實道路的這個管理有時候是要防範失誤的時候的那個危險我們要先設定說人都會失誤所有人都會失誤當失誤發生的時候我們希望他的死亡率可以降低"},{"start":6278.331,"end":6299.509,"text":"那跟委員們報告目前看起來WTO給的數據時數70的時候撞到人死亡率是99%時數60的時候撞到人死亡率是90%那為什麼很多都限定5050我們希望他有一定的效率那另外一方面他的死亡率降到50%到60%"},{"start":6302.611,"end":6324.727,"text":"那為什麼學校會用30因為學校用30它的死亡率更低這個沒問題就是說確實這是物理問題嘛你時速越快當然撞到的死亡率越高所以它的速度管理有它一定的道理我們今天討論說希望能夠更有效率的處理我們交通的這個效率的問題那當然如果報告委員效率跟安全我們要抓一個平衡點對啊"},{"start":6326.168,"end":6347.142,"text":"那個平衡點是什麼大家要有共識譬如說這幾年我們現在就是討論共識這幾年像我剛剛在報告的大家今天也關心的就是行人地獄的議題或者是交通死亡的議題我們希望在2013年之前我們要降低50%的死亡的人數在我們希望要安全的同時我們又希望效率提到很高"},{"start":6347.762,"end":6375.934,"text":"我覺得這一點對我們來講不是很容易的事來 部長我們就個案來我們就幾個狀態來討論包含提到說你剛才提到就是我要講的就很多道路它很寬闊但是你說定在速限50的原因可能就是因為避免萬一失誤的時候它可能造成比較高比較大的死傷率但是以台灣現在這種測速照相你們在設置相關的規範裡面是因為我們所謂包含今天的報告裡面有提到我們是大區段速限一致的原則"},{"start":6377.114,"end":6401.4,"text":"所以在彼此的時候是50可能原因是因為後面有一個轉彎或是後面有一個路幅的改變所以我整個大區段的道路樹線會把它定成這樣的標準但是其實對用路人來講以這個案例為例像這個新聞事件它是因為躲側樹所以它擊殺它造成很多的香港事故委員您在講的這些都是特例"},{"start":6402.443,"end":6425.155,"text":"然後你也看到照片 您所提供的照片上面是警方在這個地方那測速也真的不是 好啦怎麼樣 你要說什麼沒關係包含啦 包含說我們在高速公路上開車的時候經過測速照相的時候 這一段區間講白了就比如新竹那一段 就特別容易塞車因為大家為了那邊測速車 差比較多隻啦"},{"start":6425.695,"end":6453.576,"text":"所以有時候新竹那邊特別塞有時候原因就是因為大家希望這段速限就降下來但是一過了新竹我們如果做一個實驗把那邊的測速照相測掉塞車也不一定能解決我們可以試試看 沒關係好 那再來因為時間到了後續再討論一下因為今天還有一個第二問題就是我們行人交通的部分這件事情跟測速照相我要並且來討論是因為我們推出了很多的這個相關的交通安全的改善措施但是行人事故的死亡的減速"},{"start":6454.276,"end":6470.559,"text":"基本上從11301到8月跟11401至8月基本上行人事故的死亡事件它是持平的所以不能否認交通部有奴隸所以數據是持平但是我們希望更精進在做什麼進分在做什麼地方為什麼大家對撤出照相這件事情相關的罰還你看一下預算"},{"start":6471.553,"end":6499.253,"text":"在這個預算裡面我們光是這個去年的收入今年的預算裡面去年收入有38億左右更不用講各地方政府的收入大家想要講的是說今天我做測速照相你是為了降低可能交通事故希望交通能夠更安全所以我們去裝所謂測速照相那我們因為測速照相收來的錢要做什麼事情我覺得這是交通部要去思考的就是我今天收錢收來不是只是增加那個是交通部代收的"},{"start":6499.853,"end":6515.53,"text":"對啊我說可以看到這麼多金額進來嘛那個也不是也不是撤出照樣子 沒關係 部長我的意思是說今天交通罰還這些錢收進來之後我要做什麼我今天收起來我要做什麼因為你收進來之後我不是純粹為了增加政府的收入而已嘛我是希望說能夠改善一些事情嘛"},{"start":6515.99,"end":6539.161,"text":"那包含說日本他是很明定的在發展道路交通安全設施那今天最後一點時間我要跟部長為誠心的希望建議說這個收入我們是不是能夠專款專用所謂的測速照相的收入或是相關這個道路的這個罰款我們能夠專款專用用在所謂的行人的交通設施的改善或者交通加強交通安全宣導等等的把項目明定下來"},{"start":6539.921,"end":6562.601,"text":"那我覺得這樣子對於不小心違法的違規的像本席跟你在內我們這個不小心超出的時候我的罰款我花的有價值我交給國家之後我至少下一次可能在陸服的改善或在行人這個交通設施的改善上面能夠在工程上面讓我會降低我的疏線那也保障行人安全或保障其他用戶的安全"},{"start":6563.001,"end":6586.921,"text":"報告委員您這麼說我相當相當的同意也跟縣長委員跟召委報告剛剛你們所提到的就是說我們執法的目的是為了安全是為了更加安全所以我們執法之後所收的這些政府收的收入不應該移到其他地方應該要大比例的來做交通安全的改善才是正圖那我們目前看到現有的規定是12%"},{"start":6588.702,"end":6612.66,"text":"有些縣市我們其實有調查過不一定有做到12%但那12%大部分的比例是拿來做坦白說測速照相的維修或維護或者是執法的層面的維護但是真正放到交通安全的工程面的改善或教育宣導面的改善其實比例相當相當的低那這個部分我們也希望能夠做改進好 部長 自然你也知道這個狀況這個現實狀況我們希望說未來"},{"start":6615.382,"end":6631.01,"text":"今天既然討論車座照相的議題那既然罰都罰了錢都繳了那我們希望錢要去到真的有幫助的地方所以說再強調一點就是說包含你在內包含我在內我們那時候在開車所謂超速的時候我是因為那個情境所謂85%的問題"},{"start":6632.691,"end":6651.197,"text":"我不小心就超速了但是我們希望交通部相關專業部門在做道路工程設計的時候你透過工程道路的設計讓我不得不減速嘛我如果在一個3米寬或4米寬的巷道我不可能開到時速50 時速60我可能40就會自己"},{"start":6652.017,"end":6672.889,"text":"看一下會看一下狀況會把速度減下來所以道路工程設計應該也是往這個方向你既然道路工程設計如果這邊路幅寬達6公尺7公尺然後你差一個速限50那很多人就不小心他就會超速了但如果今天道路設計他就是4公尺3公尺他不可能開到60 70以上我想這個是物理問題我覺得大家一起來努力好不好好沒問題謝謝謝謝"},{"start":6675.868,"end":6697.013,"text":"好 這次感謝黃建豪委員感謝部長其實不管部長不管建豪委員大多數的民眾有收過超速罰單但絕對不會是一個惡意的駕駛不會是一個超速的駕駛今天有那麼多的委員來做一個質詢其實在於是看到民怨的一個部分我們希望是交通部門用更"},{"start":6698.154,"end":6712.134,"text":"開放謹慎的態度來去檢討一下到底我們的樹線設置標準有沒有符合實際的需求而不是訂了一個樹線在那邊之後就持續讓國人在那邊超速"},{"start":6712.975,"end":6737.51,"text":"我想這一個部分是還是要釐清交通委員會不分黨派朝野大家共同要為的是台灣2350萬人的交通安全來把關能夠更精進交通安全的方向我們絕對全力支持但我們也希望交通部門真的是要以一個更開放的態度那尤其是如果說真的有不合時宜的速限或者是不符合實際狀況的速限的話該檢討應該要檢討"},{"start":6742.328,"end":6760.889,"text":"謝謝 我們接下來再請徐副委員繼續謝謝主席 有請我們陳部長 警政署陳副組長還有公路局我們林局長來 部長 局長跟副組長請"},{"start":6768.462,"end":6786.659,"text":"非常好 部長早部長我想進入今天主題之前我想還是一個比較現實的問題要請教部長 是 那目前我們這個一百一十五年度的中央政府總預算還躺在立法院還沒有通過那這個是從二零零八年我們這個國會改革之後"},{"start":6787.679,"end":6810.904,"text":"17年來最晚復為審查的一次那我想這個狀況我們也非常憂心各縣市重要的交通建設會不會因為這樣的狀況受到影響我想部長自己有沒有什麼心理準備跟委員報告我們目前部內也在做這方面的盤整因為尤其道路改善的計畫尤其是一些安全的計畫這個刻不容緩也不希望能夠不希望被拖到"},{"start":6811.684,"end":6825.813,"text":"所以針對我們原本延續性的計畫我們會持續來做但是對於一些新興的計畫可能我們就要等整個預算過了之後才有辦法做所以我們也有做好有一些建設上面可能要緩一緩的心理準備"},{"start":6826.963,"end":6844.866,"text":"副部長 我想我本身是在屏東 是 因為我特別擔心這個狀況那尤其因為目前碰到立法院現在的審查預算的狀況我想陷入一個政治惡鬥的一個狀況那有可能我們的總預算一直沒辦法審查完畢的時候 是 我也很高興我們的重大交通建設會沒問題"},{"start":6846.107,"end":6860.395,"text":"是 部長這部分你們怎麼因應 報告委員 交通部所承諾地方要做的大型的交通建設我們都會全力來做那不過也要看我們的裁員的狀況我們希望我們的裁員的狀況是好的 裁划法現在也被擋住了 院版也被擋住了"},{"start":6861.175,"end":6878.551,"text":"今年的這個公建的預算其實以比例來講的話我們的需求其實是高於實際我們分配到的金額超過蠻多的啦那所以有可能會造成我們一些公共建設的這個時間的延宕有可能會發生這個必須要很誠實的跟委員報告"},{"start":6879.372,"end":6906.423,"text":"部長 我想我們都跟時間在賽跑了我們期待這個當然剛剛我們趙薇講的這個不分藍綠但是我們都期待我們的交通建設應該是要我們捍衛我們行人的一個權益那也保障我們行人的一個我們生命的一個安全那剛剛我想我想我們現在每個縣市看到很多的這個行人環境的改善那包含我們交通部也好還有我們內政部也好做了很多硬體的一些規劃"},{"start":6907.463,"end":6928.57,"text":"那但是除了硬體之外那剛剛我們也特別提到說這個我們執法的部分的一些的引起國人很多的一些質疑的部分我想這不管是軟體硬體也好都必須真的要深刻來檢討那尤其這個我們屏東我們也發生過從70速限有可能下一個路口變50"},{"start":6930.424,"end":6949.475,"text":"那過去變成又變成60同一條路可以有好幾個不同的一個速限對用路人來講當然在地也沒問題但對外縣市來到這個地方的人來講三不正啦會搞不清楚狀況那面對這個狀況警政署這邊還有交通部這邊有沒有什麼樣的看法怎麼做一個調整"},{"start":6952.345,"end":6972.756,"text":"包委員這個書憲這個部分是那個交通部他們在主導的主管的檢測室這個部分只有做這個資料測試這個部分那個部分我們會跟縣市他們在設置測試照相的時候不要避免在這種那個位置來設置不然的話就會比較容易"},{"start":6973.456,"end":6990.575,"text":"因為我知道現在只要發生A1事故我們就開始會去檢討這個路口的速限還有一些交通耗資的問題但是到底真的能不能因為這樣的我們一個嚴謹的一個措施就減少所謂一個行人死亡的一個數據我想部長這部分你們有掌握這樣的一個狀況嗎各位委員報告"},{"start":6991.776,"end":7012.109,"text":"速限大部分的道路就是由道路主管機關來設定那道路主管機關大部分百分之九十幾以上的道路是地方政府來決定那當然中央決定的部分我們盡量朝合理化像委員剛剛所說的要合理化不要那個速度變來變去讓大家不便利但是臺灣有一個比較特殊的狀況是我們的很多的地方都是市區"},{"start":7013.13,"end":7029.546,"text":"都在市區裡面例如說我省道當他經過學校的時候即便是省道經過學校速度也是30那就必然要改變因為那裡有很多的學童那進入了人口密集的地方他的速限也必然要降低"},{"start":7030.026,"end":7051.768,"text":"那出了人口密集的地方它的速限就會開始提高大概的原則就是這個樣子那不過委員所提醒的這個是很多用路人的一個疑慮跟反應就是說速限的改變其實會造成大家的困擾所以我們希望大部分都要盡量是一樣的那如果有不一樣那個標示跟標誌要清楚一點讓用路人能夠很清楚瞭解"},{"start":7052.549,"end":7067.965,"text":"部長我想屏東你也很熟悉啦你剛講到省道那就我們自己的觀察來講省道的部分其實有些我們現在的一些人行步道坐的位置是沒人的地方坐到熱熱凍有人在走嗎 沒有"},{"start":7068.973,"end":7090.753,"text":"那反倒是我們靠近這個商店區的部分人家要做生意 要停車你們現在把它化成人行不當停車不當 做生意民怨四起啊 部長當然我知道我們有檢討機制那我們也最近也很多次跟我們的公路局也好還有我們縣市政府也好我們都在檢討到底這樣的規範合不合理適不適宜"},{"start":7091.434,"end":7107.839,"text":"不要因為我們要做的這些措施影響到百姓的這個生活生命的一個權益我想這部分真的要必須要重新全面來檢視部長願意支持這樣的做法嗎可以我們也會跟地方政府來配合大家共同來討論說哪些路段設置人行道"},{"start":7108.379,"end":7122.306,"text":"比較能夠保障到行人的安全這個是最重要的目標不過也要同時去顧慮到說地方有一些民眾的需求或者是需要那這個部分我們會配合地方政府一起來檢討"},{"start":7123.487,"end":7144.255,"text":"那另外我最後要提出一個我們現在為了解決行人地域那也造成了一個駕駛地域的一個問題很多我們這個尤其台北市根據我們掌握的一個數據汽機車的違規罰單當中為減速慢行慢行禮讓行人申訴率高達全國之冠測單率第二名"},{"start":7144.935,"end":7165.932,"text":"那測單的比例高達三成那這樣的執法的一個品質也深受我們百姓的一個之一那除了台北市之外其他縣市是不是有這樣的一個狀況陳副組長請說明一下有關這個部分我們大概科技執法這個部分我們的申訴率大概是百分之0.02左右這個部分我們"},{"start":7167.598,"end":7188.188,"text":"視察的眼前都會看一下那個整個那個那個影片的狀況然後再來如果民眾有提出異議我們就再重新看一遍那這個民眾當民眾如果認為說這樣的話不行的話他可以提出異議那我們會再重新來檢核一遍如果沒有的話我們我們就會透透做效果"},{"start":7189.626,"end":7211.769,"text":"我想我們應該更嚴謹的一個執法的態度要不然大家 你們開單之後 百姓要申訴 申訴完之後你們要撤單光是這些行政流程 有沒有意義因為有些道路在不同的狀況通常在開單可能有些失誤掉了這個部分我們會再下一個宣導"},{"start":7214.289,"end":7220.224,"text":"就是因為有不同狀況所以我們才覺得你們不能用一套標準 套用在所有的狀況這樣不過錯誤力很大是不是這樣說"},{"start":7226.74,"end":7250.825,"text":"同仁在現場看為主我們是事後來 事後再來審查所以我們同仁的教育應該要再加強這個部分我們同仁再加強宣導好 這未來我想我們交通部還有警政署我們交通部會大家一起來努力當然我們要捍衛我們行人的擁護權益但是應該不要把過度的執法不當造成我們鄉親的一個困擾我想這應該也放在首位來檢討一下好 謝謝"},{"start":7254.299,"end":7266.687,"text":"好 謝謝接下來再請林俊憲委員質詢那依照剛剛宣布林俊憲委員質詢完畢之後我們休息十分鐘十分鐘休息完畢之後回來我們會先處理一個臨時提案來 謝謝"},{"start":7272.284,"end":7284.228,"text":"感謝主席本時邀請我們交通部陳部長陳部長請 工總陳局長鄰居鄰居長警政署我們要代表是副組長副組長陳副組長部長今天大家討論這個"},{"start":7296.3,"end":7297.941,"text":"你看我們台灣這個罰單數量會不會有點可怕一年開2000幾萬張啦"},{"start":7307.11,"end":7330.075,"text":"這裡只有六都加上國道去年最多啦2024年開超過2300萬張每一個台灣人都噴一張我覺得這個數字有一點可怕而且不包含其他其他一般縣市只有六都加上國道警察局的2000多萬張"},{"start":7332.285,"end":7351.016,"text":"這是台灣人要操作嗎 台灣人開車都沒收幾次嗎還是我們自己本身的制度啦 道路設計有什麼問題不然你也說看能不能那個 蘇國的經濟稍微減少一點市區建築有沒有減少 看起來沒有了"},{"start":7354.986,"end":7375.056,"text":"2000幾萬張 紅燈越開越多 但我們的事故總件數光算六都六都沒有變得比較安全你看一下再來死傷的人數也沒有明顯的改善你看他這個還是持續的攀升"},{"start":7377.594,"end":7405.765,"text":"那民怨之所在我想當然違規啦 超速都不對啦但是政府的處罰應該是最後的手段我們政府每次都自己講我要先檢討我的道路設計有沒有問題我的標線號誌有沒有問題然後我才要去做最後手段就是去處罰嘛我才會去設立一些譬如說所謂的科技執法其實我看好像也沒有這樣子啦"},{"start":7406.792,"end":7431.631,"text":"我們的那種科技指法的設備設在哪裡誰決定工種以外地方政府決定地方政府怎麼決定很多 我覺得這個台南市給你看台南市就是說以分析年度數據還有各分局提報還有地方的明代建議我看明代會建議科技指法這個比較少"},{"start":7433.021,"end":7455.937,"text":"一般民進黨也建議設個紅綠燈啦頂多上紅燈上黃燈啦那其中我看主要都是警方在提報啦因為執法單位是警察所以警方都會說對他要塞對他要塞但越設越多啦那我請教喔我們的所謂這些科技執法的設備有沒有退場機制啊你說那設在那裡也不好啦有沒有減少啊"},{"start":7462.352,"end":7471.6,"text":"只有增加沒有減少科技治法這個部分目前是有減少那個事故是2000多件"},{"start":7475.987,"end":7497.486,"text":"死傷人數還是那麼多啦開單的人數還那麼多啦我們現在沒有退場的設計啦先試他們去看這個地方如果改善可能會把這個轉移到其他地方或是把這個地點拆除掉"},{"start":7500.809,"end":7523.734,"text":"你 拆除建樹啦沒有 包括沒有一定沒有的嘛 不怕怕嘛就有你警告 有你檢討的所以啊 我是覺得你既然交通部你要設立一個設置的標準嘛你跟別人這樣說 有沒有交通部這裡有沒有要設立七條 那個倒交條例的七條之二這條你有要修嗎"},{"start":7525.791,"end":7543.344,"text":"是 委員您在提案的是希望我們可以做一個指引設置標準的指引那也可以來討論這個我們也可以來討論不過這個要跟內政部來討論因為實際上的執法是內政部負責執法我們也需要尊重執法單位他們的一些想法你知道一定是要做來進步來討論"},{"start":7545.766,"end":7563.774,"text":"是 還有地方政府因為大部分都是地方政府在執行的你看維保的件數你看維保的件數也是很高都三十幾萬件你看好 再來如果是因為錢的因素"},{"start":7565.134,"end":7576.199,"text":"我跟你說這大家都吃得低了因為你現在發了很多錢你看對不對尤其對警察來講他其中這裡面分配有24%是給司法單位對不對"},{"start":7582.172,"end":7604.605,"text":"給裁決單位24%給裁決單位75%給地方政府那24%以六都來講的話就是地方政府裁決單位就是地方政府所以地方政府等於是99%以六都來講它是99%真正警政署的是剩下的1%警政署是拿1%警政署拿1%1%是給中央1%不是中央應該就是那個警察機關這個罰款我們都沒有"},{"start":7608.703,"end":7626.566,"text":"一天都沒有拿到嗎都沒有都沒有都沒有你要告訴我清楚啦那個24%是地方處罰機關那處罰機關不是我警察局是那個公路主管機關道路主管機關像交通局地方交通局現在大家民怨都說警察在黑白開端要開很多因為警察有錢收入"},{"start":7627.427,"end":7655.592,"text":"這個你們要講清楚啦都沒有我給你用麥克風講來那個開發單的收入有沒有都沒有都沒有都沒有喔你要負責任喔負責任沒有嘛一趴到中央來嘛對不對一趴進國庫 對一趴進國庫嘛怎麼使用跟委員報告對使用是個很關鍵的問題啦99%在地方政府嘛對地方政府怎麼使用"},{"start":7656.806,"end":7672.396,"text":"目前的規範是有12%大陸交通改善但實際上大部分都是拿來做設備的維養我所理解他們大概都是做設備的維養沒有啦 你也不知道地方政府也不用報給你他們不需要報來交通部沒錯這12%到底多少"},{"start":7676.656,"end":7697.865,"text":"報告委員 其他國家都比例高很多啦而且是真正有規範要做道路改善的工程但我們台灣目前是沒有這方面的規定我這個比例太低啦所以說你這裡的錢你這裡其中地方政府的收入你是從交通罰端收入對不對對99%都留在地方嘛是是你只有12%拿來做"},{"start":7700.546,"end":7727.307,"text":"交通相關的設備改善等等這個比例部長你覺得太低嗎報告委員我們有看其他的國家像日本或者是法國他們比例蠻高所以他們的那個道路改善的速度相當的快韓國其實也是這個可以調高嗎我們希望調高但是要跟委員們大家合作才有辦法調高我們也會跟地方政府來做溝通他這個有一點抵觸財政紀律"},{"start":7730.257,"end":7754.236,"text":"這個財政紀律法好像在108年有修訂過是不是這樣子是你現在 這個你要跟財政部談因為它這個訂的很實財政紀律法它訂得很細你現在訂的這個修正法律修法還是法規的自治條例規定不可以再去訂固定經費額度或比率保障"},{"start":7755.077,"end":7777.162,"text":"而且別人還用所謂的指定專管專用林局長 請回答一下各位委員 報告這個分兩個層面如果就法制層面的部分的話這個分配辦法是在財政紀律法這個之前那也確實我之前在想說要是不是可以調高那找這個相關財政部跟組總他們是講說如果就法制層面來看的話"},{"start":7777.962,"end":7805.16,"text":"現在要修正就必須要去遵守那個財政紀律法的規定所以原則上那個百分之十二這個要動好像是有違反財政紀律法的一個規定之餘那另外一個部分當時第二個層面是想說那現行六個項目可不可以來做這一個調整就是做這些把他明定做交通安全改善環境改善這個部分但是這裡面這個部分的話又會牽扯到地方政府我也跟委員報告因為"},{"start":7806.381,"end":7823.814,"text":"這個錢在地方政府裡面各自應用的情況不一樣那我每次開會的時候地方政府出來如果是交通單位跟警政單位出來的意見就會有差異就是說我也不反對這些錢留在地方但是你應該優先來做交通相關的改善"},{"start":7825.055,"end":7843.656,"text":"對 這個我們相當同意但是地方政府他現在不受規範他只有99%的12%裡面拿來做交通相關的支出而已所以局長你要給部長了解這個狀況部長他是同意調高問題是你現在有相關法律的卡住"},{"start":7844.637,"end":7867.858,"text":"所以我就說要跟委員們大家一起來合作你要找財政部 找內政部大家來好好的討論要不然這個就目前為止看起來就真的是地方政府的小金庫確實是這樣 固宅營什麼的我們就不看了而且你看它只有12%指定用在交通相關其他88%等於隨便地方的固宅營"},{"start":7869.04,"end":7877.513,"text":"這一點我認為有很多民怨可能也是因為從這裡而來他認為你那個用來改善交通的錢那麼少"},{"start":7879.229,"end":7898.8,"text":"路線標示號誌路口改善當然你更容易造成違規是 沒錯變成一個惡性循環好 我們主席已經在這我來努力感謝主席謝謝部長謝謝我們各位同仁 謝謝好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長我們現在休息十分鐘休息十分鐘過後我們繼續開會處理臨時提案 謝謝"},{"start":7907.807,"end":7937.773,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7937.773,"end":7954.971,"text":"是要海推也不容易的其實我們都會準備一個地方建設比較容易的 像海拔就會有一個限飛池然後我們就在那邊建設一個限飛池然後我們就在那邊建設一個限飛池"},{"start":7957.773,"end":7969.633,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8507.182,"end":8513.599,"text":"好 現在交通委員會繼續開會首先現在處理臨時提案 請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":8520.719,"end":8542.594,"text":"臨時提案一 針對我國近期為洗刷行人地域污名大幅修正交通法規並強化執行力度 微查現行交通執法細節繁雜 諸多判定標準僅限於行政含釋或內部作業規定缺乏統一且易懂之公開資訊管道 致使民眾"},{"start":8543.634,"end":8566.947,"text":"長因不明瞭法規細節而誤判法網或受媒體片面錯誤資訊誤導 引發民間並耗損行政機關公信力 原此建請交通部會同內政部警政署針對此法標準透明化與法規資訊盡用性提出具體改進方案 建立權威性質圖解法規資料庫及"},{"start":8568.248,"end":8570.269,"text":"好 請問這場的委員有沒有要補充意見"},{"start":8593.913,"end":8617.203,"text":"那因為本期也先宣告因為今天交通部部長陳部長他有事先先請假就到11點之後他另有要工要先行離開那等一下會由這個五次長再來做後續的一個這個詢答那在場我也尊重一下在場委員盧明哲委員你是下一個諮詢有沒有什麼要先跟部長提點的"},{"start":8620.267,"end":8636.809,"text":"好來那請行政部門這邊來表示意見針對這個提案主席也跟在場的委員跟提案委員報告因為現在臨時提案的部分我們建議是一個月的部分改成三個月"},{"start":8637.901,"end":8664.429,"text":"就是在第四行 建請交通部會同內政部警政署於一個月內研議 那改成於三個月內研議是不是 是 剛剛也跟提案委員先討論過了好 那這三個部分其實相對來講都是至關重要 也是可以強化 用科技方向來強化我們的道路交通安全那我們委員是不是可以接受好 可以接受 那我們就本案修正後通過"},{"start":8665.849,"end":8683.149,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢 如有委員對上述提案補簽列入記錄並且刊登公報好部長可以謝謝來這張請好 接下來再請魯明哲委員質詢"},{"start":8696.482,"end":8700.647,"text":"好謝謝主席這個換武次長有請武次長"},{"start":8707.663,"end":8734.528,"text":"本來要問部長的那你就幫忙代答或者帶回去是首先第一個問題是當然我們也看到就最近行政院長特別針對於整個道路安全因為有行人的面向跟所有的開車駕駛人我覺得兩面的一個生命甚至有一些車禍整體的一個願景2030年他的目標是希望行人死亡下降50%"},{"start":8735.948,"end":8754.139,"text":"同一時間2050年剛剛部長也有說了整個道路但是含行人跟車輛都一樣交通事故在A1的臨死亡這兩大目標那我們就這兩大目標來做一個檢視在2030年距離現在大概就剩5年左右"},{"start":8755.78,"end":8781.977,"text":"那死亡人數 行人的部分統計去年行人死亡366人那我們做一個比較但是如果要達到行政院院長他的一個下降50%五年下降50%的目標就簡單來說每一年大約減少10%啦這是大家一個努力的目標但我們看從去年的統計1到8月到今年的1到8月現在有的資料"},{"start":8782.817,"end":8811.897,"text":"事實上人數差沒有太多目前就統計資料只降了0.9當然要到年底直接看那右邊我一次講完在整個道路整體的A1死亡的一個事故每年大概要降7%在2050年才能夠達標碼那這個部分我們再比較也是差一點那我們想次長你來說明一下尤其在行人這個部分要做什麼"},{"start":8813.357,"end":8833.986,"text":"這個下什麼功夫 麻煩說明一下是 我跟委員報告我剛看這個數據還是我的數據可能有點問題因為我看的我記得是14的1月1到8月應該比去年同期應該減少100多人才對不是只有0.9%是不是 那個市長可不可以來說明一下好 您說明一下"},{"start":8840.934,"end":8861.349,"text":"跟委員報告 跟委員報告那委員目前的數字是正確的 沒有錯啦那跟委員報告 目前其實要達到那個目標確實是有很大的挑戰性我這數字到底有問題 還是沒有問題你不要影片一截到剛剛上一段啦"},{"start":8861.969,"end":8888.932,"text":"那因為你們給我們的數據嘛如果有問題的話沒關係啊大概就說一下啦因為這個大家共同一個願景嘛我們要達到行政院院長的一個願景這個目標要加哪些努力而已嗎好不好特別委員可以關心的行人的部分喔那我們從我們的數據上看起來行人主要的事故是發生在路口跟路段那我們在路口那邊這幾年因為我們用行人停讓的這樣子的政策"},{"start":8889.512,"end":8916.644,"text":"每年大概有3%到4%死亡率的下降這個成效是比較明顯那現在的問題重點下一個階段可能會放在路段中間因為台灣的那個機車還有車流的密度比較高所以我們在路段中間發現行人被行人被被被撞擊的那種頻率還蠻高的那當然也有一部分是行人在跨越那個路段中間那這個是我們下一個階段在"},{"start":8918.304,"end":8939.271,"text":"強調在宣導的重點那另外也跟委員報告從我們造勢的鑑定資料特別是從婦醫會裡面去看只要是超速撞到行人那個死亡率很高46%所以這個也是我們一直交通部一直在強調在速度管理上面的重要性還有行人在過馬路的時候的重要性以上"},{"start":8939.431,"end":8959.783,"text":"好 這個司長 你剛剛講的一個確實我下一頁就是要講這個測速照相的一個相關的問題很多委員也說過了我們都理解剛剛部長也講好多次了70公里如果發生撞到人車禍他的死亡比例然後50 這我可以推論就不要開車出來大概就沒有問題"},{"start":8961.243,"end":8989.803,"text":"你就10那就幾乎是沒事但是我覺得這個部分一方面我們在推論在整個的一個部分車速照相一個交通是不是交通安全的萬靈丹剛剛有委員說過我就簡單帶過因為在我們就是在警政單位統計就是發生死亡的A1可能是駕駛人車上的也可能是行人總共的一個排行榜就駕駛這一端噪音屬於駕駛這一端他的"},{"start":8991.103,"end":9018.443,"text":"因為超速駕駛就你們的統計它目前是今年是到11月昨天而已抓出來資料是第24名所以因為其中有大概前23名有各種的因素是我們警政署統計出來的發生車禍主要原因是什麼那在這個的部分所以我們現在如果不管是地方政府或者中央的相關的一個交通政策"},{"start":9019.444,"end":9032.499,"text":"所以大家會質疑這件事情今天我要謝謝昭偉今天排的專案報告是我到交通會議來可以講最精彩的一天就把所有的路上的人都已經感覺衝過來舉牌抗議"},{"start":9034.421,"end":9056.513,"text":"行人舉牌抗議 行人抵禦駕駛人舉牌抗議這車怎麼開測速照相這兩個把它排在一起所以這個我覺得你們要思考這個問題怎麼樣做政策的指引剛剛部長特別強調說很多的設立是地方政府地方政府又是屬於警察局有很多交大 警政的單位也上來一下"},{"start":9057.773,"end":9078.428,"text":"對 在交大去會刊設計其實設在省道快速道路上面我們一般這個公路局大概都競表同意啦也沒有什麼不同意嘛大家為了交通安全可是因為他的A1死亡車禍他的排行榜就是第24名那我們再來看一看我們在網路上最近在談這個問題在駕駛端 騎車人的一個感受"},{"start":9083.872,"end":9112.114,"text":"我們坦白講我們是用這個全世界統計一個網站我覺得還滿精準的叫這個scdb這個網站大家可以去查叫做speed camera全世界統計全世界統計再加上因為有一些國家大有些小有些開發道路多 有些少那你要處理它的道路有些統計出來這是一個參考的資料那我們台灣的部分"},{"start":9112.975,"end":9134.705,"text":"每千公里包括巷道 只要開著道路通通算每千公里有82隻日本如果以他那個數據來講0.27隻新加坡26.9 差不多27隻同樣的基數之下那我算一下全球沒有列出來全球整個加起來"},{"start":9136.195,"end":9164.157,"text":"每千公里2.2次所以我是覺得就在整個政策的一個考量當然這只是一個面向這支數它的密集度就用它的這個國家的道路它的密度坦白講台灣是真的偏高當然我們再比較就是說它的死亡率因為我們多所以我們的這個交通事故的死亡率減少了那我們就要說亂試用重點可是一看"},{"start":9164.958,"end":9181.546,"text":"我們的每10萬人道路交通死亡的A1車禍其實還是滿高的好 那我想這樣我做一個結論因為第一個車速照相多這是一件事但是更重要的是速限的問題"},{"start":9182.666,"end":9194.855,"text":"剛剛也講了很多現在很多的駕駛人包括騎車的所面臨的很多的一個狀況叫做測速的陷阱什麼叫測速的陷阱大大的道路"},{"start":9196.109,"end":9222.887,"text":"然後但是慢慢的速度那個道路一看起來就大概可以開六七十 穩穩的但它有一些會四十是五十然後剛剛部長已經講很多次因為撞到行人的死亡率這我們可以理解可是問題是這種糟糕的一個情況對於駕駛其實我們大概很多都開車了遇到這種狀況第一個 測速器多不多"},{"start":9223.587,"end":9240.91,"text":"第二個 這個速限到底合不合理第三個是最嚴重的事情大大的馬路 小小的路口一堆我們都出過有一些比較先進的國家我們到那邊也乖乖走個五分鐘才這個路口"},{"start":9241.491,"end":9261.349,"text":"可是在台灣有非常多的大路即使我是三米的小路兩米的農路我碰到了大道路分隔島我一定要把它打開我想市長你有沒有遇到這樣的問題還是市長你自己開車有沒有遇到這個問題整條道路有些樹線到底它為什麼會遇到行人就是大街小巷"},{"start":9262.51,"end":9284.271,"text":"兩米的巷道農路鑽出來就是地方一定要給它開過所以變成一條正常如果大家都講正常在這麼寬的60米雙巷的道路設計就居然出現這麼多這麼多大小的一個穿越道路每一個上面當然都有人行道所以我覺得這樣的人車相遇的那種頻率"},{"start":9285.692,"end":9302.633,"text":"我覺得是有不合理我就開一條路這個我不舉例說明各縣市都有所以我這個部分我講我覺得交通部我們在過去討論行人地域的時候你們當然也可以說大部分的人行道都是地方政府所以我可以不管"},{"start":9303.354,"end":9331.843,"text":"那現在可以說測速照相都是地方這個警察局地方政府的我也可以不管但是不能這樣這個整個台灣的一個印象我們大家一起努力對不對所以我是希望行人這一端怎麼樣去改善那尤其在測速照相我的結論是測速照相的設立在一個交通政策跟財閥是希望越來越好還是越來越壞"},{"start":9333.323,"end":9361.078,"text":"當然我們希望設定的目的是最後沒有人超速了然後就慢慢慢慢車速照相越來越少然後達到我暫時性的一個執法的一個教育的目的可是現在不是是越來越多而且裁罰越來越多這個某種程度根據我們最終的一個交通教育的目的我覺得反而是背道而馳所以我希望在整體的一個交通的一個政策引導的這個部分"},{"start":9361.738,"end":9381.074,"text":"我們交通部也能做一些來引導包括內政部的警政署因為大概在桃園有22%的費用會進到我們警察局裡面也是我們警政同仁在做交通安全相關的使用桃園市警察局有沒有分到這個錢"},{"start":9382.495,"end":9395.06,"text":"零嗎 你剛剛講零是署裡面是零還是警察局那個處罰機關不是警察執法機關錢不是撥給警察局的但是有處罰機關他們處罰機關是誰處罰機關拿24%嘛 大家都說了嘛那不是警察機關我知道 處罰機關拿24%75%到哪裡去市府"},{"start":9411.705,"end":9433.682,"text":"對所以這個好法律規定12%要做交通安全相關的部分都進到各個警察局都有進桃園市是22%所以你拜託不要再講什麼0%的問題當然這也不是中央地方的問題關注他最後使用的部分確實有沒有到我們交通安全上面這是民間關注的角度好不好"},{"start":9435.627,"end":9460.42,"text":"跟委員補充報告直轄市的部分就是地方政府是拿了99%我知道嘛 24%是交通裁決機關嘛對不對然後75%的部分我再講有進到我們陶衣市政府警察局的部分我們希望能夠確實用到法定上面規定的交通安全跟相關設施的改善好不好好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":9465.305,"end":9478.609,"text":"好 謝謝雙方接下來再請何欣辰委員質詢好 謝謝昭緯那我們是不是請次長來 次長請"},{"start":9486.403,"end":9509.952,"text":"市長好市長委員好我今天因為道交條例或是交通政策我想都是中央地方政府要一起合作努力但是我們中央也有很多是必須要好好的去督促地方政府要負起一些責任尤其我今天要談的是公車政策的管理"},{"start":9510.592,"end":9528.393,"text":"那公車管理的政策我想地方政府全責但是我們中央還是有督促之責譬如說我不知道次長知不知道這個去年的9月有一個東海大學生在台中市中區被大客車客運"},{"start":9530.195,"end":9547.694,"text":"這個公車這個碾壓 那往生那歷經了到現在一年多那家屬跟客運公司呢歷經了好幾次的協調都協調沒有結果那之所以沒有結果呢據上個月的新聞"},{"start":9550.277,"end":9564.615,"text":"這個協調的破局是因為聚業這個客運公司的當時候造勢的價值他承認超時上工所以保險公司不理賠 拒賠那只剩下這個"},{"start":9566.437,"end":9577.062,"text":"保險公司不理賠的情況之下只剩下駕駛跟客運公司駕駛跟客運公司的態度又不佳所以協商調解破局為什麼駕駛自己認為超時上工因為按照交通部現行的規定65歲以上的大型車職業駕駛現上午6點至下午6點執行駕駛勤務"},{"start":9594.031,"end":9607.077,"text":"那當時候2024 9月的這件事情交通事故發生的時間已經在晚間9點明顯違規市長你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":9608.636,"end":9632.275,"text":"跟委員報告我知道這件事情但是我不知道他後面剛講那個不理賠事情我知道當時那個基業這個有撞死這個東海的這個女大生這我知道那後續這部分抱歉我沒有掌握我之所以要提醒交通部我們要掌握是在於第一個現行的這個65歲以上的大型車職業駕駛的這個時間的規定工時的規定我們"},{"start":9638.496,"end":9654.604,"text":"有明令有規定這是交通部的法規對不對第二個他已經明顯違規了那為什麼地方政府竟然還不知道來我給你看我們現在的客車的這個客運的評鑑誰做的"},{"start":9657.953,"end":9670.127,"text":"主管機關以這個市區的客運主管機關是誰台中市政府交通局我們交通部公路局有沒有督導之責"},{"start":9671.246,"end":9687.427,"text":"跟委員報告按照權責這個對主管的市區客運區做評鑑是交通局的責任那但是我們對就是說為了提升全國公共運輸的發展對於做評鑑我們是有這一個補助是好那我就給你看喔"},{"start":9688.448,"end":9694.471,"text":"聚業公車的評鑑結果2023駕駛員工的工時稽查滿分因為得分總分三分在這個評鑑裡面17項的評鑑項目裡面其中一項叫做駕駛員工的這個工時稽查"},{"start":9707.386,"end":9710.389,"text":"2023評鑑結果滿分好 我剛剛說了東海這一個大學生被撞死的是在2024的9月你知道2024的評鑑結果這是在今年才公佈的聚業的駕駛員工時積差還是拿滿分"},{"start":9729.392,"end":9746.882,"text":"市長 這合理嗎我剛剛給你看了駕駛承認他超時上工所以保險公司拒絕理賠結果我們在這個公開2025 11月27號最近才公布的一個2024的台中市市區公車的評鑑結果裡面駕駛員的公時稽查竟然拿滿分"},{"start":9758.462,"end":9760.264,"text":"那我們中央有補助這個評鑑計畫有補助錢預算給台中市政府難道我們沒有督導之責嗎這合理嗎 次長你認為這合理嗎那這個評鑑是做假的啊"},{"start":9772.665,"end":9795.221,"text":"是 我想這樣子跟委員報告剛講因為主管機關是台中市政府的交通局那我們交通部對他有所謂的經費上的補助我想現在經費上的補助我想針對這評鑑我們是不是可以再你要怎麼再要求這個評鑑他的過程到底合不合理合不合規到底有沒有實際的去稽查去評鑑"},{"start":9796.722,"end":9819.923,"text":"難道只是靠業者的書面的一個呈報然後就這樣子可以決定他的得分數嗎我看到這個所謂這個本來工時稽查在這17項裡面的其中一項他的配分是3分我都覺得分數這個好像看起來不是佔了很大的比例結果我更訝異的是竟然評鑑結果他的得分還是滿分還是給3分"},{"start":9823.306,"end":9841.404,"text":"更好玩的是什麼 很有趣居業公司 對不起居業的公車在2023的評鑑結果裡面的其中一項駕駛員行駛之安全性從2023到2024兩個年度來看他的安全性都非常的不及格分數很差"},{"start":9842.984,"end":9870.798,"text":"那竟然在公司的稽查裡面是滿分我覺得這個矛盾顯現出這個評鑑制度做的不到位而且沒有核實的去稽查那這個市長剛剛有說了嘛公車的安全第一資訊要詳實評鑑才能夠值得信賴不然我們現在在網路上看到的公告出來的評鑑結果我都懷疑它是假的"},{"start":9872.714,"end":9882.461,"text":"如果你的資訊不夠詳實評鑑沒有辦法被人信賴那做什麼評鑑那你看喔是根據我們發展大眾運輸條例跟交通部一個大眾運輸營運與服務評鑑辦法"},{"start":9886.789,"end":9914.141,"text":"以劇業的這個評鑑結果為例跟實際的狀況是有極大的落差而且是完全讓人家不可信任的所以市長那我們中央未來的對他的評鑑的補助經費我們要如何的要求是我想我跟委員報告剛提到因為我們大概目前大概就針對可能會再請同仁再去看從評鑑的經費上的補助我們怎麼樣去協助他讓這個評鑑讓他更完整"},{"start":9915.962,"end":9940.402,"text":"我知道評鑑計畫你們補助的預算其實在整個比例裡面不算多但是我現在要求的是不管你補助的經費多與少我要求的是地方政府在做真正的市區公車的這個客運的評鑑要核實要詳實資訊要正確評鑑要能夠被市民信賴這是最重要的一件事啊"},{"start":9940.822,"end":9953.378,"text":"是 我跟委員報告確實委員講到確實是最重要的一個這個重點啦因為包括國共部局對於國道客運公共客運的評鑑或是各地方政府對於市區客運的評鑑這個評鑑的一個這個成績還攸關到這個虧損補貼的一個部分"},{"start":9956.582,"end":9976.961,"text":"所以這個公平性對科運業者是非常重要的一件事情就是說對於台中市交通局這個評鑑有這樣的情況這個第一點我個人的看法是台中市交通局應該要對外做說明而且要對科運業者做一個那個那回到這個公務局供應補助的這個部分的話未來我們會這個檢討如果說確實"},{"start":9981.165,"end":9998.125,"text":"這個我們補助給他去做評鑑這些相關的這個結果是有這個相關缺失或等等部分第一個部分我們也會考量有缺失跟違背事實對 對於他的這個補助可能就是要再做一個這個檢討那甚至如果說依據這一個"},{"start":9999.806,"end":10018.025,"text":"評鑑做出來我們對於他們地方政府虧損補貼的這個額度的話恐怕也要連帶也是這個銅板做一個部分我想針對這個案子的部分我們內部來對供應的機制來做一個檢討是市長很重要再強調一次中央既然有補助中央就有督導之責"},{"start":10018.846,"end":10040.491,"text":"那雖然這個權責是在地方政府但是我為的是台中市民在搭公車的市民他們對於認知中的台中市的公車安全跟管理都打了一個大大的問號12月2號才剛過去的那一天我們台中的公車失控撞脫轎車三名乘客救出送醫"},{"start":10041.511,"end":10057.128,"text":"然後9月1號開學日70名學生單無車 拖班沒有公車坐 造成這些孩子上課遲到 苦苦等不到車我舉這兩個例子是最近的兩個例子"},{"start":10058.789,"end":10088.009,"text":"台中市的公車的安全跟管理出了很大的問題而我們中央在供應計畫裡面對於各項的這個市區公車或者是偏遠路線的公車運輸系統是有補助的我們如何在補助裡面針對我剛剛講的評鑑制度評鑑結果還有呢真正地方政府對於他的市區公車的一個安全管理的問題我覺得中央要拿出專業跟督導職責要嚴格的要求"},{"start":10088.809,"end":10102.801,"text":"不要每年補助 然後辦評鑑然後每年的公車事故還是不斷我想這不是我們要的 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來再請陳雪生委員質詢好 縣主席是不是請吳次長來 次長請"},{"start":10127.028,"end":10152.203,"text":"不是啊 今天講到人行道的問題現在還有很多的人行道障礙很多 不平整當然我最近在台北市開車也好 走路也好那個李士川副市長 路平還做得真是好大家開在路上都滿舒服的所以這個很重要 不要讓有一些身心障礙的 老人"},{"start":10153.396,"end":10169.69,"text":"像我們已經步入高齡化了不要讓他受傷這很重要當然我看到這個公路局的報告好像還要改善很多地方有沒有很像要改善1316處繼續改善它的長度120.75公里我覺得這個非常好"},{"start":10179.369,"end":10207.452,"text":"還有就是重要路口的順暢安全改善我們已經講到行人道我在前幾天的資訊裡面提到了行人的安全我們非常重視非常注意但我現在在觀察很多年輕人還是在打手機還在看平板打手機一邊走路一邊聊天嘻嘻哈哈的然後慢吞吞的他不管你車輛"},{"start":10208.905,"end":10234.235,"text":"你車輛我們開車的人急得要死啦比如說要右轉對不對要堵在那裡行人一波接一波的慢吞吞的尖峰時段當然我們要加強警力今天警政署也有來我上一次諮詢過了你要讓他快速的通過還有就是這個在人行道比較長的部分"},{"start":10235.535,"end":10244.381,"text":"是不是能夠偵測行人專用的石像也是偵測行人的綠燈讓綠燈去走你留一點空間給開車的人這一點OK嗎"},{"start":10249.757,"end":10269.11,"text":"我跟委員報告 剛剛委員提到的我開車經驗是這樣的就剛剛講右轉 路口比較長的有時候常常有一個路口一個紅綠燈過不了甚至有時候兩個都很趕這部分確實是有看到行人有少數的有所謂剛剛提到那個滑手機的情況"},{"start":10269.91,"end":10292.925,"text":"那這個行人專用十項我想這是一個我覺得是一個很好的這個措施我想這部分我們會來我看一下這邊給我們的專用十項裡面到目前已經完成了198處那後面我們想再跟地方政府我們再來協調一下幾個必要的就剛剛講的可能比較大的避免讓這個人車有60到80到那種的對你們有準備再做這個嗎"},{"start":10299.294,"end":10322.967,"text":"這個我們會來跟地方主席來協商我們絕對是顧慮到行人的安全行人也要自重行人也要自重交通的秩序要大家共同來遵守大家共同來維護這個比較重要行人安全當然是第一優先尤其老人 身障這些我們要特別注意"},{"start":10324.113,"end":10352.344,"text":"所以警力的部分 警方也配合一下像東環南路很長 八個車道八個車道的話 你一定要多設一個行人的實相讓行人通過的時間是什麼時候你紅燈亮了 行人看到紅燈亮了 他就不敢走了你要留點時間讓車輛走不要等了兩三個紅綠燈嘛 這個就比較不好了還有就是馬祖大橋 我本來要來找部長"},{"start":10354.11,"end":10373.556,"text":"那你請回 請那個公路局局長第一次的推動小組已經開過會了嘛那開會 開完會算了嗎跟委員報告開完會議紀錄還沒呈到我這邊但是我上次有跟委員就是第二次我開會的時候會邀請委員會給部長看嗎"},{"start":10376.287,"end":10403.648,"text":"應該不會因為是我共務區不會那就你們關著門在那邊玩沒有我們還是有邀請民間縣政府大家共同做討論還包括這個市裡面那個會議紀錄會到市長部長走了你跟他報告一下是馬祖大俠從106年可行性評估107年那時候我們總統任行政院長的時候他批的可行性評估花了1.5億"},{"start":10405.595,"end":10428.135,"text":"一億五千萬喔這不是小數字耶那你現在已經七八年了你看看淡江大橋我們昭緯的小區淡江大橋馬上要通車了歡欣鼓舞你起碼紓解了淡水出來的通路嘛是不是那中央政府一直在強調這個離島偏鄉"},{"start":10433.032,"end":10462.024,"text":"我說你上一次跟部長還誰討論 院長好像有講過你不要訂一些特別條例嘛你訂特別條例不如你好好講我們編入公務預算嘛那你公務預算也不給我編啊是不是 你公務預算也不給我編啊就跟剛才林局長講的你們開完會 局長批月可以了我下次我去開會下一次你要通知我去開會 開一次就好了我不給你們壓力好不好"},{"start":10463.018,"end":10489.049,"text":"因為既然成立推動小組 你就要去推動嘛丹江大橋完工 前面金門大橋完工金門大橋多少公里 金門大橋4.8公里丹江大橋920公尺啦我們馬祖大橋才3公里 6公里喔丹江大橋6公里喔對 那個920是主橋段喔 他講橋面啦 好 不過沒有關係啦"},{"start":10491.383,"end":10519.825,"text":"澎湖有大橋 金門有大橋 馬祖這個大橋拖了六七年了我請問 你送到國發會去技術沒問題 經費沒問題 還有什麼有問題那些腦袋有問題嘛 你懂了沒有局長人家說會吵的 會鬧的有糖吃啊不吵不鬧的 像我這麼溫和的沒糖吃我明年 我根本不擔心砍預算 我跟你講"},{"start":10521.957,"end":10550.936,"text":"民眾說我亂砍預算我就亂砍給你看我先把你砍掉40億怎麼樣這個部分跟我們報告下就是已經有成立推動小組往這個方向我先把他砍20億凍結20億你同意嗎不然你不給我編啊是不是嘴巴講爛也沒用啊我也不吵也不鬧那你們中央的誰我不知道啊腦袋是不是有問題"},{"start":10553.001,"end":10581.021,"text":"有狀況嗎錢也沒問題啦工程技術也沒問題啦為什麼不去動呢還是四七編了三百六十幾億啊我看多少億三百六十億有沒有虛編我也不知道昨天那個三接你看虛編那麼多我在前面講九十幾億變成一百多億一下兩百多億變成三百多億你去了解一下好不好"},{"start":10582.152,"end":10585.782,"text":"現在鄭裕萌董事長剛上任嘛再清理一下嘛"},{"start":10586.889,"end":10611.693,"text":"局長 你要做的責任啦是 跟委員報告就是說馬祖大小這個部分基本上已經在這個程序裡面做處理啦對啊 你繞了七年了耶那有些課題現在已經成立推動小組大家跟我們這個權力協助廉江縣政府不是 你要我來推嗎我拿到立法院來三讀一下 縣裡面什麼時候完成嗎"},{"start":10613.786,"end":10634.237,"text":"不好吧我們會在推動小組裡面積極協助這個連江縣政府來克服這些你最起碼很像這個這個設計的經費你們那裡有吧有基金嘛基金對啊 不要編預算啊我們公務局都要編要編公務預算你們沒有中油那麼有錢啊不會開大口講大話你起碼先給我編個幾十億嘛那個設計要兩三年耶"},{"start":10642.628,"end":10667.795,"text":"你不要以為馬上就可以蓋橋啦還要細設耶細設要兩三年的時間耶各位報告現在馬祖大橋的部分終歸要先這個核定後面才會有建設計畫核定才會依序這個遍列經費做設施我知道 你現在趕快核定嘛你不核定什麼意思啊好不好我第二次推動小組我要強調這個事情"},{"start":10670.12,"end":10693.039,"text":"那審預算怎麼審 我先幫你刪掉二十億你同意嗎陣營委員因為馬祖大小的部分你們不要搞到這個地步嘛 是不是一定要吵嗎 要鬧嗎好不好 市長市長 我跟委員報告一下我跟委員報告 剛剛提到因為現在已經成立推動小組是由那個局長他親自來主持 我想"},{"start":10694.045,"end":10720.029,"text":"這部分再 逐一去把相關的問題做給釐清啦那現在已經在 一下子你要上塔嘛 國發會在搞什麼行政院在搞什麼是不是 你要給還不給 你講清楚嘛你刀子一下給他殺下去快嘛 你把我頭砍掉就算了嘛砍掉的話我天天跟你鬧啊 是不是我對你交通部那麼友善幹什麼我有砍過你一毛錢嗎很奇怪耶局長"},{"start":10720.974,"end":10721.834,"text":"接下來再請許智傑委員質詢"},{"start":10754.727,"end":10778.943,"text":"謝謝主席 我們還是請次長跟公路局長次長 林局長請委員好謝謝次長跟局長我們有關於人行地域的改善事實上的確是有一些成果還不錯所以首先對交通部表示感謝"},{"start":10780.325,"end":10805.78,"text":"那就拿我們鳳山來講就是說我們的國台路旁我們衛武營旁邊那邊那包括中山東路三字街口這個都有很明顯的改善所以這個人民的誇獎之處也帶給交通部謝謝你們的協助那當然後續還有我們光復路捷運西站等等還有很多地方需要再加強"},{"start":10807.129,"end":10830.765,"text":"那有做的部分先改善先感謝但是就整體的部分那個市長可以看到上面的高雄市行人安全設施改善30處完成28處人行道改善1.1公里已完成0.8公里這個量體太小也就是說速度太慢"},{"start":10832.041,"end":10856.954,"text":"你可以看到內政部260億交通部140億其實還有很多可以改善的空間包括我們很多學校的人行步道都在學校外面那當然這個經費編到內政部去也著實需要有改善的地方那有很多地方還期待改善所以我是希望說交通部可以要求一下就這個速度可以加快"},{"start":10859.13,"end":10866.58,"text":"這個好的部分好的事情我們就做快一點讓人們會更有感這一個部分希望說交通部可以改善好"},{"start":10868.459,"end":10889.229,"text":"再來就是說我們的那個交通公園兒童交通公園這個部分我也要求了很多次了從以前我記得張雅琳還沒就職之前我們還去我們鳳山的新墻兒童交通公園那邊去參去參那個勘查那"},{"start":10892.574,"end":10903.713,"text":"我陸陸續續這幾年就是說希望說交通部可以去效法就是像日本的交通公園它那個是非常的擬真你就看左邊的圖就是說它那個非常的擬真"},{"start":10905.08,"end":10922.786,"text":"我們現在的新墻交通公園其實是不擬真的只是說讓小朋友去做一個學習當然也還不錯但是如果能夠擬真才會更好所以我也要求了很多次包括112 113 114這個也一直要求交通部要做這樣子的改善"},{"start":10924.071,"end":10952.659,"text":"那現在也謝謝交通部的確有把我們的意見參考進去所以現在我知道交通部做了好幾個地方了就是用擬真的真實道路的情況去讓孩子去覺知道路的危險感知然後或者是行人視角才能夠去讓小朋友將來能夠在交通安全上可以維護得更好那我知道是桃園經理站已經開幕了對不對那鳳山什麼時候開幕"},{"start":10954.654,"end":10970.7,"text":"各位報告桃園建築站確實已經開始開放做使用那這個高雄區建築所就是那個鳳山那邊目前我印象中進度到11月已經開始現在已經做好了嗎對 已經開始在執行驗收相關的什麼時候驗收完成"},{"start":10971.46,"end":10994.812,"text":"我在這一個跟他們確認一下那後面這個開放使用的部分相關的部分我們再做我可不可以要求一下就是禁訴那就是驗收完畢之後我想這個我已經要求了很久的一個對孩子有幫助的一個建設我希望說能夠儘早讓我們的孩子可以使用"},{"start":10995.672,"end":11017.064,"text":"那也希望說這個交通部到時候是不是盡快到我們鳳山做一個開幕啟用典禮我們來規劃在這邊正式的再要求一次那再來就是說是不是這裡交通部 交易部有來你們把意見帶回去就好就是說兒童交通交易這個其實要一起"},{"start":11018.499,"end":11045.087,"text":"一起來做國會不管是戶外教學也好不管是學校正式的交通教育的課程也好希望說交通部能夠跟教育部也彼此聯繫一下從小做起啦對 這個沒問題你看那個日本的小孩過斑馬線都會舉手你知道嗎對你知道台灣的小孩子過斑馬線會不會舉手比較少見是的你知道意思嗎因為他們人小嘛"},{"start":11046.195,"end":11070.548,"text":"小朋友人小你如果都舉個手至少那個有時候那個視角那個大車的視角至少你增加高度可以增加安全所以像這個部分其實在台灣你可以看小朋友幾乎都有人舉啦但是不多啦那這個是不是應該是交通安全跟教育部一起就是兒童交通教育是不是可以一起做這個希望你們再研究一下好"},{"start":11073.203,"end":11096.58,"text":"那最後一項這個台86銜接台三線大概幾個禮拜前我有打電話跟局長先反映這個問題這個對我們來講其實是相當的重要我想交通是所有的發展之母那也請次長跟相關的單位一起再要求一下比如說我講說我們今天"},{"start":11097.847,"end":11115.383,"text":"茂林國家風險區今天沒有來那是希望交通部一起做思考這個將來我可以變成整個擴大到大旗美地區甚至我茂林的溫泉跟寶萊的溫泉可以從山上再取溫泉水可以擴大溫泉區"},{"start":11117.355,"end":11143.477,"text":"就像我們去日本我們去泡溫泉很多台灣人去日本就是泡溫泉那順便逛風景區逛哪裡他可能不見得很在意但是如果說我今天茂林寶萊這邊我把它擴大變成一個擴大溫泉區然後我把茂林國家風景區擴大到大崎美地區那就包括我的美濃的客家我騎山的老街我內美的動物園"},{"start":11144.658,"end":11168.909,"text":"這些其實都可以做一個現在要做群體站而不是個別站所以我們在推動觀光的時候我希望說我們那個格局可以放大所以這個都是未來的需要那再來說說我今天國使也接到新威那邊可以到美濃到六龜那今天如果是我台86銜接台三線"},{"start":11170.799,"end":11198.078,"text":"那包括內門 岐山他們這邊有一個往台南的銜接可以節省20分鐘那這個南高屏生活圈其實我也推動很久了就是說我今天台南高雄屏東我們也做一個群體站的思考這個一個500萬的經濟體正好大家要互動如果有交通的便利他才有辦法把這整個的交通來把它規劃得更好"},{"start":11198.979,"end":11218.246,"text":"所以其實我到了地方去,你包括我們祁山天后宮的馬祖廟的那個主委啊,葉主委啦,那包括內門,內門我們本地文化也很興盛,我們有一個阿龍塞,包括我內門的里長、里民,事實上我到地方去,他們都覺得這個台八六這一條,"},{"start":11219.406,"end":11238.906,"text":"真的是如果可以順利連接上對整個南高屏生活圈對整個我大旗美地區包括茂林國家風景區如果可以變成一個溫泉觀光特區將來可以吸引外地人可以吸引外國人變成一個很好的地方所以我們其實那個眼光要看很遠"},{"start":11240.167,"end":11252.16,"text":"我們要有眼界要有創意那現在就行動力非常的重要所以這個台86我不知道目前就是交通部的規劃大概規劃到什麼程度"},{"start":11253.592,"end":11279.228,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告就是說綜合規劃已經這個處理已經規劃完成那現在就是說環評的部分兩次專案小組也都開完了那我們預計應該是明年1月就可以送這個環評大會那只要環評大會通過之後我們並綜合規劃就可以這個計畫就可以懲罰交通部轉這個行政院來做來做一個核定跟來做一個審查跟這個核定"},{"start":11279.668,"end":11298.366,"text":"那後面因為後面大概主要有這一個工程兩大部分啦一個部分是既有這個道路的一個改善那另外一個部分是這個新批這一個路段的部分那只要建設計畫這一個核定相關工進的部分還有就是細設跟未來工進的部分工務局一定會這個加速辦理"},{"start":11299.076,"end":11317.138,"text":"好謝謝最後我總結一下就是說為什麼台86這麼重要就是我剛才提到的就是說我們整個溫泉觀光特區將來在我東高雄然後甚至在街上南高屏這整個其實就變成一個南台灣一個非常重要的看起來"},{"start":11318.291,"end":11335.7,"text":"不起眼但是卻非常的重要那如果能夠把它連上的話事實上未來真的是對整個南高屏尤其是我們大高雄的東高雄其實會有很大很大的幫助所以就是照目前公路局的規劃之外我是希望說速度加快啦"},{"start":11336.6,"end":11352.851,"text":"就是說你今天環評我看你是明年六月嘛那你今天如果明年一月環評都可以先通過的話那可能再把速度加快我想這個是我們南部人高雄人的需求包括台南屏東人的需求希望可以盡速完成那好不好應該機會很大吧"},{"start":11355.888,"end":11363.776,"text":"跟委員報告 環敏的部分既然專案小組兩次都審查通過了已經準備要提環敏大會應該這個蠻樂觀的那就拜託禁訴好謝謝感謝謝謝委員接下來再請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":11382.352,"end":11407.871,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請市長跟公路局的局長林局長請委員好市長好 局長好淡江大橋明年五月大家引領期判終於要通車了本來是一件喜事那喜事大家就通力合作 好好辦"},{"start":11409.617,"end":11424.725,"text":"只不過說最近看到媒體上面我們的侯友宜市長跟交通部這邊可能有一些溝通不是那麼順暢的部分就這個部分現在後續還有再進行溝通嗎"},{"start":11426.487,"end":11449.713,"text":"跟委員報告確實丹江大橋這個國人相當期盼通車之後相關周邊的交通環境也要做配套那所以這一個徐立斌這邊跟新北市已經有成立一個橫向聯繫平台什麼時候成立的在之前8月份這個他們父母來拜會我的時候就談到這個構想8月的時候才成立平台"},{"start":11450.453,"end":11478.335,"text":"那已經要是今年8月嗎對對對對那我現在就直接問來來來我看一下我們之前之前3月19號的時候交通委員會我們過去淡江大橋考察那一天我們今天的主席孟凱雄我們都有到現場去那一天我就當場提一個問題就是說淡江大橋通車是好事"},{"start":11479.793,"end":11505.695,"text":"通車便利帶來車流對於本來淡水交通的衝擊就會造成相當程度的影響所以那一天辦完了考察以後在考察的結論上面我就說了請公路局儘早啟動通車前相關準備工作要跟新北市府等密切聯繫要確保通車後周邊道路的交通運轉順暢"},{"start":11507.833,"end":11527.02,"text":"因為你那個橋很方便帶來了車流對於本來淡水因為淡水很有歷史嘛有很多道路比較狹窄車一進去一定會對當地的交通產生衝擊嘛我3月考察的時候就跟你們講了結果你們是到8月才成立平台"},{"start":11527.711,"end":11547.296,"text":"跟我們報告一下8月份是把它提高到局的層級那原來新北新工處跟我們這個新工北分局他們平常在攻進的這個部分沒關係我問具體的問題啦第一個怎麼樣被對既有淡水的交通造成負面的衝擊這件事情相關的規劃做好了嗎"},{"start":11548.526,"end":11575.315,"text":"這個部分跟新北都有一直在做這個合作包括剛剛委員講的是現在進行是還是完成是現在正在這一個進行因為明年5月是現在進行是不是是因為相關的你們跟那個新北市府的溝通接下來相關的公文跟進度都副本讓我知道好嗎可以嗎可以對啊因為既然我們大家關心這件事情我當然要緊盯嘛"},{"start":11576.536,"end":11595.869,"text":"要不然的話我都不知道你們是不是在講空話我到今天才知道說原來3月就請你們要做這個事情結果到8月溝通平台才成立起來我特別跟委員報告一下3月進行那個新工處跟我們新工委分局在工程的部分沒有關係啦你相關的細節你相關的細節到目前為止開了幾次溝通協調會會議的紀錄會後送到我辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":11604.022,"end":11620.962,"text":"第二個是你們當然舉辦一些慶祝活動這個都好事我也知道這個報名活動都是秒殺我為什麼知道是秒殺因為我自己有上去報名我自己有上去報名我上去報名了公路局自行車活動"},{"start":11622.085,"end":11647.632,"text":"我有報名到那是因為我們辦公室同仁很厲害手腳非常的快兩分鐘之內就額額滿了這個是好事代表你們辦的活動很有人氣但你們也要顧慮到一下淡水當地的民眾跟新北市政府他們的需求跟他們的感受那今天早上我聽那個孟愷委員在質詢的時候部長好像是說"},{"start":11648.993,"end":11677.41,"text":"名額不可能再開放了嘛有安全性的考慮是這樣嗎對於自行車跟路跑的部分確實是好那沒有關係那時間可以再多開放一點讓淡水的民眾有參與這一個慶祝活動讓他們可以第一時間享受這個歡樂的氣氛的可能性嗎時間可不可以多開一點你們既有的活動基於安全性的考慮名額不再增加這個我覺得OK"},{"start":11678.431,"end":11695.467,"text":"但你要考慮到新北市府跟淡水那邊民眾的感受跟需求嘛可以用的時間可不可以多開一點出來讓淡水當地的居民也可以一起來慶祝這個淡江大橋的通車這件事情做不做得到"},{"start":11696.566,"end":11719.211,"text":"問問報告原則上就是說所有在這個時間的部分不影響勘驗不影響勘驗之後相關缺失調整的部分的話那我們這個盡可能可以做使用的部分一定是盡可能做使用那對於這個在地參與的那部分的話其實在後面有些活動都有考慮到那相關細節的部分我們會跟新北市政府還有包括這個沒關係一樣你會後相關的細節要怎麼做"},{"start":11722.772,"end":11740.638,"text":"會後書面回覆給我可以嗎因為我很擔心啦有的時候在這邊聽了一堆空話接下來有沒有落實真的很擔心那第二個重要的事情是說因為萬里那邊的鄉親好不容易等來了一座機車練習場"},{"start":11742.859,"end":11770.376,"text":"那也要感謝萬里區公所啦他們很認真自己去找國有財產署那撥了一塊地讓萬里那邊的鄉親可以有機車練習場但問題是說之前萬里地區因為沒有監理站然後所以呢常常要跑到基隆去考照非常的不方便那有人就跟萬里區公所反映反映說那有沒有可能我們現在有機車練習場了可不可以在原地考照"},{"start":11771.837,"end":11780.345,"text":"那他們得到的回覆是說這個業務權責屬於交通部公路局台北市區監理處這件事情可不可以拜託交通部幫忙"},{"start":11782.812,"end":11804.799,"text":"不然這個課題的部分我回去請我們台北市區監理所跟萬里區區長做一個這個聯繫好沒關係你們什麼時候要聯繫一樣時間複製我辦公室因為這個萬里區的居民他們好不容易在那邊爭取到個練習場萬里區公所他們也很認真嘛現在架一個部分就是考照的問題"},{"start":11806.62,"end":11834.942,"text":"不好意思主席再接一分鐘就好第三件事這個事情其實我去年3月的時候就已經請你們就請你們交通部的到我的黨團來開協調會這個國道1號五谷交流道偵測北陸北出閘道的這件事情基本上面我們要改善在那邊會造成擁捨的情況所以跨越了豐江路"},{"start":11835.782,"end":11857.351,"text":"然後接新五路但問題是什麼問題是說你跨越楓江路接新五路後面還有三個紅綠燈後面還有三個紅綠燈會塞在後面所以我3月的時候去年3月的時候開協調會是希望建議你們是不是有可能下來的時候也可以直接接65"},{"start":11858.956,"end":11887.296,"text":"然後可以排除掉非常多的車流那時候請你們評估這件事情那你們最後的答案好像是說不肯結果辦通車的時候陳明毅議員非常的認真他跑去通車典禮的現場雖然沒有被邀請他跑去通車典禮的現場直接跟卓榮泰講說接下來還有中港西中港南新北大道如果直接這樣下來的話"},{"start":11888.965,"end":11914.852,"text":"前面豐江路解決了後面三個路口塞爆你如果直接接上去的話往新莊樹林板橋土層到國山根本都不用下地那一天陳明毅議員在那邊當場跟卓榮泰院長反映了以後交通部知不知道他反映的這個事情當天的這個影片貼到社群平台上面那個瀏覽處瀏覽數驚人"},{"start":11918.226,"end":11940.514,"text":"因為所有在地的居民全部都贊成他的建議全部都贊成全部都贊成他的建議這邊議員說我們去年在立法院就開過協調會跟你們講這個事講了你們也不聽等到開工典禮再去講大家覺得都有道理"},{"start":11941.857,"end":11957.415,"text":"那最後的結論是什麼最後的結論左翁他還是說要請交通部研議我聽到研議兩個字就有一點怕怕現在是真的有在研議還是現在都已經完工了不可能再改了所以也沒有什麼研議好做是真的會研議嗎"},{"start":11959.116,"end":11981.995,"text":"過去發生的事情我就不說了你們當初我們開協調會事後回給我書面講的那些事情我都知道現在已經完工了那完工了以後我們接下來要思考的是下一步怎麼辦下一步怎麼辦那因為我看到媒體報導說卓榮泰說要請交通部研議嘛那我就想要知道現在目前研議的進度如何"},{"start":11984.276,"end":12001.285,"text":"跟政府報告那個五股交流到偵測這個北出的這個可行性研究當初是新北市政府提出來的那因為主要的問題是要跨越風槍路因為當初的那個不好意思主席站起來剛剛我跟你講前面的事情就不用再提"},{"start":12002.245,"end":12017.931,"text":"如果現在卓榮大概請你們研議我只想知道是不是真的有在研議還是研議完了之前能不能接台65之前在可行性研究的時候就已經評估過了因為他要新增一個雜道而且用地需要增加比較多"},{"start":12018.571,"end":12047.671,"text":"所以它會涉及到新北市政府的徵收跟用地的一個取得所以我們大概有跟新北市溝通如果未來他們那個地方的開發的用地取得如果可以的話當然在基礎上面可以再做一個進來只是說當初就是說沒有直接接65的話因為車流的部分北出的話直接是要接台一它的車流比較多我剛剛跟你說你們前面那些歷程相關的配合我都看過了不用再複述了"},{"start":12048.411,"end":12058.14,"text":"我是想要知道在10月27號完工通車了以後左榮泰承諾會請交通部研議這件事情有做還是沒有做"},{"start":12059.331,"end":12080.843,"text":"跟委員報告我們有就是說就以前的分析就是說他如果要做這件事情的話涉及到用地的一個取得10月27號完工以後卓榮泰請你們研議你們有做還是沒有做有現在有做嗎沒有關係10月27號以後卓榮泰請交通部研議所有研議曾經開過的會議"},{"start":12083.556,"end":12108.564,"text":"所有開過的會議以及你們研議的資料會後送到我辦公室來可以嗎可以這樣才講得比較實在一點因為我現在聽你回答的方式我已經高度懷疑是不是真的有研議既然你說有我相信你既然有研議就把12月27不要再拿以前的東西給我12月27號以後你們具體做了什麼研議會後把資料送來可以嗎可以好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":12113.547,"end":12133.832,"text":"接下來再請鄭天才委員質詢好 主席 各位委員 有請次長來 伍次長請"},{"start":12142.045,"end":12154.929,"text":"好 社長好委員好今天的報告裡面特別提到113年相關的交通事故死亡人數2950人比112年少73人"},{"start":12160.491,"end":12187.727,"text":"少是值得要繼續努力但是這個人數還是相當多2950人將近3000人所以這個部分要繼續加強然後要跟相關的地方政府尤其是像教育部學校的部分這個要繼續能夠加強而且最好能夠"},{"start":12189.025,"end":12212.955,"text":"你們的數字要去特別去尤其是兒少學校這個氣塊然後各機關相互的合作才能夠真正有效的去把它這個能夠降到最低最低這個部分當然跟這個相關的這些這個設施"},{"start":12214.997,"end":12240.968,"text":"提升人行安全的相關的計畫當然又跟這個內政部各方面都會有關係所以這個就請你們繼續努力 好不好好 接下來我還是要談這個本席一再不斷地來去請你們繼續努力的地方就是宜花東第七鐵路設施安全改善計畫這個改善計畫這個"},{"start":12245.405,"end":12273.245,"text":"本席多次的質詢也去協調這個國發會然後還有這個行政院所以國發會在10月30號他們當天開審查會之後也發了這個新聞稿這個台鐵公司在11月11號也回覆這個在國發會審查的時候把這個名稱改為台鐵宜花東及"},{"start":12274.144,"end":12301.337,"text":"南迴線路段鐵路設施安全改善計畫從這個10月30號國發會開審查會然後你們做了一些修正可以現在進度怎麼樣這個部分剛剛講就在10月30號那時候就有審查嘛在國發那邊那原廠大概沒有問題那現在是應該是他報到院裡面去"},{"start":12303.865,"end":12309.072,"text":"國發會就在送行政院 送行政院因為行政院事實上在這個"},{"start":12311.681,"end":12334.801,"text":"因為我不斷的在追蹤了行政院秘書長在11月13號當時他回函給我是說這個國發會還沒有送現在的進度已經送了是不是對 已經送了這個還沒有核定嗎還沒有還沒有核定這個希望交通部能夠再跟行政院"},{"start":12336.202,"end":12356.249,"text":"這個負責的是哪一個處交換處就跟他們協調趕快成合是 好不好好 另外就是這個台11線就花蓮豐濱鄉港口部落這個外環道外環道本席也是這個"},{"start":12358.585,"end":12368.754,"text":"這個追蹤這個案子一段時間這個你們當時最後一次答覆是在9月16號9月16號是說這個這個9月15號成立預算約4個月內完成發包發包了嗎4個月內從當初9月也快差不多4個月有嗎各位"},{"start":12386.034,"end":12404.735,"text":"這個部分我了解一下再跟委員報告回去了解一下然後如果還沒有完成那個加快因為他這個只是一個綜合規劃評估嘛還沒有到要執行所以這個部分你前面沒有做好的話後面"},{"start":12405.649,"end":12424.474,"text":"你的工程 工程的相關的這些預算各方面就會延後所以這個部分也已經安排了相關的這些地方的說明會也都爭取了 都爭詢了所以這個這個後續的部分繼續加強謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":12434.485,"end":12452.706,"text":"接下來請邱洛華委員質詢謝謝主席 主席有請武次長還有道安 武次長請 道安是道安 杜正吉道安是市長市長"},{"start":12455.711,"end":12473.874,"text":"好 委員好 次長好 次長首先針對道路交通安全規則第83條之二修正草案和次長討論並請交通部說明那根據道路交通安全規則第83條之一第七款大型重型動力機械或方向盤飛在左側"},{"start":12474.895,"end":12497.591,"text":"之重型動力機械應標配標誌還有前導及後衛之車輛隨行自民國115年1月1日起方向盤飛在左側的普通動力機械也必須遵守這個規定但交通部在11月28號預告修正道路交通安全的規則第83條之二你將方向盤飛在左側之普通動力機械的機械像是吊車"},{"start":12498.932,"end":12524.903,"text":"免前倒車後衛車隨行緩衝期延長10年由原定的民國115年延到民國125年所以今天想請次長說明因為很多民眾包括我也覺得不解跟誇張依行政程序法重大公共政策通常預告期需要60天但這次交通部只有給了14天那請交通部說明為什麼是不是請那個相關主管來說明"},{"start":12526.386,"end":12551.212,"text":"跟委員報告目前這個法案目前還在預告期間所以現在委員所提的一件因為現在就是收集完以後我們會再一併來做一個通盤的一個檢討收集完什麼時候會收集完你們有討論過嗎我們預告14天預告14天是符合法定精神嗎那請也請說明為什麼縮短也請說明縮短理由跟法源依據"},{"start":12558.109,"end":12580.76,"text":"因為因為這個這個因為這個當時在公告的時候是有急迫性所以我們預告是有什麼樣的急迫性請說明因為主要是在預計在明年要實施所以預計明年要實施所以交通部只給了14天嗎公告期不是至少要60天嗎就是主要是因為考慮到實施的時間"},{"start":12581.758,"end":12609.169,"text":"那過去已經演了 那為什麼又要再演10年呢這個10年是怎麼樣計算的 是根據什麼樣的 你們有報告嗎因為主要是八成的車輛大概 目前時間大概25年八成的車輛 我們來看這個83條之二修正草案的總說明那現行方向盤 方向盤飛在左側的普通動力及一些均無前導車後衛能正常運行"},{"start":12610.249,"end":12628.359,"text":"然後施行前導及後衛車輛隨行需要三倍能力那有失平衡性且會造成道路交通擁捨為兼顧業界的實務需求及緩衝期間施行情況尚無明顯危害且多數接近報廢年限那請說明報廢年限你們有訂定一個報廢年限嗎"},{"start":12632.719,"end":12648.509,"text":"是因為考慮到使用的現況使用的現況那我們在可延續現行免配備標示前導及後衛車輛隨行製作法再給予10年緩衝期是所以你們就是要這樣子延了再延然後也沒有充分討論"},{"start":12650.329,"end":12674.748,"text":"現在就是在在那個徵求大家的意見 你們有要徵求大家的意見嗎那你們有會議紀錄嗎就是現在在預告期間 現在在預告期間那民眾民眾不解的是喔那這個報廢年限近了所以你們再給10年為什麼報廢年限近了你們反而還給10年了你們有沒有顧慮到車子的安全性"},{"start":12678.533,"end":12683.672,"text":"因為就是維持現在的做法然後就是讓他可以再延長一個使用的期限"},{"start":12684.845,"end":12712.386,"text":"維持維持現在的做法那吊車大型的吊車在路上它本身就有危險性那你們有沒有去那相信也有民間團體跟你們反映嘛那你們收到是什麼樣的呈現請說明因為這是主要是針對普通的重型機械不是那個特別大型的不是特別大型的那普通的重型機械他們是不是有要求說免前導車跟後衛車"},{"start":12714.521,"end":12734.882,"text":"現在目前就不用現在就不需要前導跟後衛現在就不需要前導跟後衛那你們有沒有進行一個完整的安全風險評估過呢然後也有沒有公開資料公民中來檢視那再來你們有沒有跟所有利害的關係人進行充分的溝通"},{"start":12736.03,"end":12751.128,"text":"就是因為主要是維持現行的做法那現在就是說如果再延長預告這個期間我們會再持續在那為什麼這一年就是十年你們是根據什麼樣的情況下去做考量為什麼一年就是十年不是五年"},{"start":12754.044,"end":12777.055,"text":"那是不是有業者跟你們說因為就是快要接近報廢的時間了所以希望可以再延10年所以你們也採納了這個意見那我不懂的是為什麼他都快要報廢了你們還讓他再延10年呢所以今天才向交通部了解"},{"start":12784.483,"end":12807.712,"text":"主要是他接近報廢那是不是就應該要淘汰為什麼交通部主張報廢那他還可以再跑十年我現在就是要瞭解這個問題因為主要就是我們沒有強你們要怎麼去做你們要怎麼去做去做監理跟管控呢我們現在主要應該說我們沒有要求他強制淘汰就是讓他延長他使用是希望他能夠後續能夠朝向自然淘汰的方式去處理"},{"start":12808.587,"end":12835.346,"text":"那現在你們有沒有要求就是這些車子要去做驗車動力機械就是沒有所以你們要怎麼確保這些動力機械他是可以安全在路上的呢這種我們回去再考慮到他的整個整個監理事務上怎麼去處理OK因為時間的關係會後請再提供詳細的資料好謝謝"},{"start":12839.448,"end":12864.853,"text":"好 謝謝 我們接下來再請游昊委員咨詢好 謝謝趙偉謝謝 那有請次長"},{"start":12868.346,"end":12868.978,"text":"好 吳次長請"},{"start":12875.29,"end":12899.822,"text":"委員好 市長好 那市長本期想要先追蹤有一個目前在交通部還回覆給交通委員會的一個進度就在2024年5月16號的時候本期曾經有針對北市發生一起李姓夫人過馬路時跌倒在斑馬線上那遭到一台貨車還到時候不幸輾過"},{"start":12900.842,"end":12925.765,"text":"那時候的原因是因為這個標限的防滑係數到最後已經是不合格了所以說本席那時候有在質詢的時候有提到還請就是交通部針對這個防滑係數標限的抗滑係數的部分還在全台灣去做一個重要路段的一個評估"},{"start":12926.946,"end":12947.825,"text":"並且將一個月內將這個調查結果回覆給交通委員會那在我們辦公室翻找的公文還其實並沒有收到這個相關的這個一個月的回報但沒關係那我最主要是想要了解一下這個部分那時候其實在公務局表示台灣"},{"start":12948.806,"end":12974.389,"text":"道路標線以交通安全規範的防滑係數是45BPM為標準省道會要求到55BPM那在這個全國的一個重要路段的一個調查那以及在改善的方案那剛好搭配今天的議題那我想說是不是請交通部來回應一下那這個標線對於用路人安全的一個進度跟改善的狀況"},{"start":12976.107,"end":12979.29,"text":"來是不是請 沒關係看請誰回答沒問題委員報告就是我們在過去其實有找過地方政府還有六都還有台北還有國度署來討論啦那目前是第一次最我們的高快速公路至少標線的跑行速度至少50BPM以上"},{"start":13003.451,"end":13017.294,"text":"但是市區道路我們有預定是至少在65以上這個是大概108年就有這個含釋下去所以說其實地方政府應該都知道說至少現在市區道路市區道路的繁華標限至少在65以上"},{"start":13018.331,"end":13041.569,"text":"那時候請交通部針對各縣市的一個重要路段因為那時候是因為有人死掉啦因為防滑的部分不合格結果到最後他一滑倒還有車子過來碾過那時候是有請交通部這邊針對一個月之內做一下調查那也把這改善的一個方案來回覆就是交通委員會那這個部分都沒有收到任何的一個回覆"},{"start":13042.813,"end":13069.953,"text":"那這個部分我當然知道啊那各縣市政府那你們跟政府溝通的情況跟調查的情況以及道路的標線的改善的情況到底是進入為何啊那法規的部分我當然清楚啊我們再了解一下那個當初的那個回函的內容因為目前來講我們所了解到請你們回覆交通委員會是沒有回覆啊公文也查找過了"},{"start":13071.124,"end":13093.636,"text":"那所以說我還是要請你們重新再來瞭解好不好因為最主要是因為這是鬧出人命的事啊所以說看是如何改善嘛那先瞭解過之後才知道怎麼改善好不好好謝謝OK好謝謝那要補充嗎沒有沒有沒有就我們回去剛剛講我們回去瞭解一下然後再跟委員報告好OK謝謝"},{"start":13096.24,"end":13123.607,"text":"好那接著我要請市長就是在目前來講那不是這題了目前的話這個三接案那在中華公園工程是百分之百持股的4C工程那這個部分其實我想請教一下交通部4C對於這個三接案交通部的態度以及說對於這個部分是不是要做一個說明"},{"start":13124.717,"end":13140.497,"text":"我想我跟那個委員報告世襲剛剛講這個問題那現在目前已經進入那個司法程序我想世襲一定會全力來配合整個的調查這我想勿枉勿重的這樣一個原則"},{"start":13141.118,"end":13167.154,"text":"那在這個整個價格 招標價格的一個提高的過程包括也有 裡面有提到啊就說中友提到說很有錢啊那所以從94億提高到253億那在交通部他是等於是完全投資完全主導的這個世西工程公司那我想問一下交通部對於這裡面整個過程那麼大的一個案子是不是都有相關的掌握"},{"start":13169.052,"end":13184.446,"text":"這個部分因為他是世襲他去接就是剛才講接受中油的委託他還針對整個預算做編列這部分我想世襲應該會依照當時的物價這些去考量"},{"start":13185.327,"end":13201.947,"text":"我相信應該不會有什麼特別問題那至於剛講錄音檔這個我們沒有辦法去證實他的真偽好 那本席還是要提到因為畢竟是百分之百交通部能夠主導或是就是相關的不管是工程師或是世襲"},{"start":13202.808,"end":13225.659,"text":"那應該相關都能夠是掌握裡面的內容那交通部在裡面的但是勿枉勿縱那還是本席在這裡提到交通部還是對於這一案來講一樣是要持要有的一個角色應該要了解的部分也必須要跟大家社會大眾來做一下說明那同時那本席接著再問在目前來講"},{"start":13227.02,"end":13244.254,"text":"工程會他們有提到要修改這個政府採購法還三家以上合格廠商投標他這條要刪除才能夠開標限制他在這個中油這案來講針對工程會的政府採購法修正那我也想問一下交通部的態度跟看法"},{"start":13245.851,"end":13268.602,"text":"如果是工程會做修正當然就配合那個工程會的相關的規定去辦理所以說交通部會認為說在這個政府採購法修正案草案刪除三家以上合格廠商投標才能開標限制的部分那交通部是持一個支持的態度我想我們因為工程會是全國的這個工程主管機關嘛就我想我們就尊重他們"},{"start":13270.083,"end":13284.712,"text":"好 那本席還是要提到一下因為像是世襲的這個案子跟棕油的這個弊案現在目前來講當然是司法在調查之中那其實在政府採購法的一個修正那其實也會因為這件事情來受到影響跟討論"},{"start":13285.732,"end":13304.747,"text":"那包括孟凱召委之前也有回應過在新聞上也都有看到對於政府整個修正的一個擔憂啊那所以我覺得在交通部當然也是問您的看法所以交通部對於工程會的這一個刪除的案子條文來講還是表達是支持我們尊重尊重 好 OK 謝謝好 謝謝油耗委員接下來再請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":13320.907,"end":13324.093,"text":"謝謝主席 有請交通部武次武次長請"},{"start":13330,"end":13358.919,"text":"阿武元好我吃好 我吃了我今天跟你談這些有關於這個速限跟這些限速跟速率之間的矛盾的問題那在地方上引起相當多的民怨在貴部的這個報告當中一直強調道路安全還有包括交通順暢是你們政策目標其實更需要的是要如何去檢討 減少這個民怨也就是說所謂人本交通的落實不是在硬體的部分也不是在管理的部分而是在你在政策擬定的時候你就要這樣思維"},{"start":13360.14,"end":13383.189,"text":"那或許交通部會認為說這其實很多是屬於下放之後的地方的權責但是如果是所有地方政府都是有類似的情況的話那交通部的責任就很難撇清更何況你們有制定一定的指引而為什麼這指引沒有辦法生效而無法落實那是不是指引本身出現了什麼樣的問題這或許是大家要去共同面對的問題"},{"start":13384.409,"end":13404.61,"text":"那問題出在哪裡地方政府基本上所有處理到這個線數的這個部分只要發生這個A1事故或者是什麼事情他就採取一個最安全的方式以這個線數最低的方式可以達到安全的這一種思維 政策思維來進行所謂的這個交通管理這是第一"},{"start":13405.271,"end":13432.168,"text":"第二的部分它又可以取得大量的罰款來作為地方政府的一個地方預算的一個調度跟運用所以說基本上這是根本是站在地方政府的思維而不是站在整個用路人的思維所以沒有在站在用路人思維當中就發生有些一路同一路多數限的這種狀況不斷的這種產生我覺得對這種狀況的話我想請教武士你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":13433.93,"end":13460.166,"text":"剛剛講的那個限速的問題我想做這個限速應該是以過去我想這是警政所不過我想他們做這個部分應該主要是考慮到過去你們有提出一個統一的指引喔你們提出一個統一的指引喔對 因為統一指引它第一個剛剛講的每一個地方的情況不太一樣每一個地方情況不像你們曾經用道路交通這個號誌的指引的設計你們有一個參考指引是交通部所訂定的喔是"},{"start":13460.666,"end":13487.708,"text":"對啊 既然是你們電電的部分為什麼這樣講呢就是同一個又大又寬的一個道路當中你因為要左轉的情況底下你擔心左轉你需要速度的應該減速結果你就因為這一個需要減速的部分用一個最低的標準你就降低了整條道路當中你就因為有一個轉彎其實同樣一個可以轉彎的地方你可以設置這個緩坡或者是設置黃燈提醒用路人這樣就可以達到這一個轉彎的這個安全上的顧慮"},{"start":13489.209,"end":13514.67,"text":"可是因為這個顧慮當中你讓整條路的這個速限都完全都一樣這就問題所在啊所以說我說你不要再推給警政署警政署當然我會就教於他們可是這個問題當中就指引的部分在盜安團體當中又不斷的強調你們缺乏強制性有跟沒有是一樣的嘛那本席就是說你是不是要強化這個整個指引讓指引的功能能夠更加落實"},{"start":13515.55,"end":13530.647,"text":"這當然我們可以去強化但是因為指引剛剛提到這是每一個地方的情況不太一樣我很難在指引去做很細節的規範是啦 你們有推出18個情境嘛你們有推出你們這個參考指引當中有缺"},{"start":13531.368,"end":13544.117,"text":"推出18個前進那為什麼這個18個前進還是沒有辦法發生這個效用還是不是單一的縣市的問題而變成一個通案的狀況你們難道沒有一個行政作為可以來進行規範然後落實來減少民怨嗎"},{"start":13546.539,"end":13568.682,"text":"五次我請市長和議市長請跟委員報告其實那個指引是我們應該是運營所做的那一份指引那個指引它原則上是一個大方向的一個規範那確實因為整個道路的樹線要設定它要考量的因素很多我也很認同剛才委員所講到要考量用路人"},{"start":13569.443,"end":13587.865,"text":"那這用路人也包含行人我特別是其實委員也知道我們行人對吧用路人行人更需要討論檢討是地方政府的心態嘛他動不動就限速啊A1事件的限速然後有轉彎的限速然後限速的話壓低了很低的限速的情況底下這種"},{"start":13588.966,"end":13616.587,"text":"限速跟速率之間是矛盾的你本來道路的設計的速率還有包括用路人的常態性的一般的常識認為這條道路本來就可以開得比較快的情況底下結果你限速不合理就產生這個罰單嘛 對不對或者用路人在使用道路堂的心理壓力嘛而產生了民怨嘛我說的是這些問題嘛這根本問題所在你要去面對的是根本問題還有跟地方政府溝通才能達到這個所謂的真正人本交通的政策規劃啊 市長"},{"start":13617.848,"end":13642.193,"text":"跟委員報告現在人本交通的思維特別是WTO跟歐盟不要跟我講那個我現在跟你講這件事情扯到WTO跟歐盟幹什麼因為這人本交通核心理念就是這個樣子我們不能單純從車的角度在看沒有單純車的角度我就說這個用路人也是使用道路的對象不是使用行人的角度而已"},{"start":13643.593,"end":13649.06,"text":"我就想說這個部分你要思考一下那個主席你再給我一分鐘一下好不好那我想問一下檢政署一下 檢政署"},{"start":13651.246,"end":13676.572,"text":"警政署在今天的這個報告當中的一個羅列的三個事項交通工程改善先行這個就很清楚你們這個調整是對的不然以原來你們的這個整個這個測速照相為主然後交通工程為輔這個真的要顛倒但是有你們現在就要回去檢討一下當初的設置的這些地點當中不是設置 是一種設計我舉一個例子就好"},{"start":13677.612,"end":13703.15,"text":"預警巴士快速道路本來書籤是90結果它銜接到一般的道路是70你就在那附近裡頭設計那一支放那一支那前面又放那一支結果這一支一年的收這個罰款高達多少高達8000萬還上了新聞也就是說這種設置跟設計根本設計用路人嘛不是為了交通安全來設置而是為了罰款來設計"},{"start":13706.136,"end":13721.309,"text":"這應該做一個全面性的檢討啦是好不好好麻煩請回去檢討一下那麻煩五次一下齁然後還有市長回去檢討一下是不是有加強資源的空間還有跟地方政府溝通心態跟他本位主義OK謝謝我們會確認 謝謝好 謝謝來再來請謝龍介委員質詢"},{"start":13745.088,"end":13764.463,"text":"主席我請出庭來 市長補庭要照顧他在庭離開請教 委員你好主庭辛苦了這個鄉民訴告你說有講解你們的統計裡面鄉民發生的訴告裡面有多少件是鄉民"},{"start":13774.532,"end":13796.704,"text":"這個串紅燈 感冒跟委員報告 我們目前手頭上還沒有那麼細的資料 是不是可以會後再補充這就變成教育的問題了 因為串紅燈結果發生鎖國的時候這擁楼林 架樹林的感覺很危困"},{"start":13804.878,"end":13818.087,"text":"我這麼注意,結果鄉民衝昂登出來,才發生這個危險,你的手裡裡面,有講到這個設備,全國所有的科技啟發的器材,有沒有經過你們的統一認證?"},{"start":13826.914,"end":13830.44,"text":"跟委員報告這個交通部不需要去認證這個東西國管企業科技計劃有一定的標準嗎"},{"start":13838.942,"end":13863.327,"text":"您用這個科技計畫是要改善交通保護行人的安全我跟您報告科技計畫最終是地方政府一般的所以您採取開放的性質就對了所以經濟事務等等都採取開放你可不可以知道我們現在一年只有這個法案修律多少你不知道嗎"},{"start":13867.722,"end":13874.505,"text":"180年是173億181年是289億4千萬182年變成238億4千萬一陣子開始大家都在注意鄉民的安全183年大概是245億左右今年有的應該在265億 漸漸加"},{"start":13897.369,"end":13919.764,"text":"保護鄉民大家都知道一定要100%熱心但是這不是只有你溝通保留在這裡 設平在這裡這是社會付出多少代價人家有去蘋果店所以有在要保護鄉民 讓鄉民得到的改變之後所有溝通我不知道你個人有在開車嗎我有 我有在開車有嘛"},{"start":13921.417,"end":13932.729,"text":"你有發覺台北市 你都在台北市開嗎?台北市主要台北 台中 台南 高雄 我跟你講 很多勇弱人 煩你怎樣開一個青紅燈 本來聽一個紅燈就可以過的東西 有賺喔現在變成要聽誰的紅燈 你有這個經驗嗎?幾件有啦有喔"},{"start":13943.444,"end":13957.716,"text":"所以這個鄉民安全不是只有這個版本是我們全民付出共同的社會成本的代價包括這個法金 你知道嗎 得手來自六島九年代 台北市是29億 台中市是28億東京市是23億5千萬 高雄市21億 台南市15億1千萬"},{"start":13972.985,"end":13999.465,"text":"現在這個科技計劃就變成了不看就不改善的空間了就讓它看過是白色的就放心了再來本席在各位再想到一個明明好 說我不怕小丁啊我的車就感應了 你聽到沒有就讓它開啊 明明好 它感應不到"},{"start":14000.728,"end":14012.513,"text":"這樣又重來 我有幾句話 我現在是說 很多 我們民意代表在地方收到民眾的電信用路人 駕駛人喔 行人也會電信 駕駛人也會電信你們有針對駕駛人跟行人機關 跟交通安全 跟法款 違反交通機關做一個通報的綜合並購物"},{"start":14028.426,"end":14045.218,"text":"我跟委員報告因為科技集團這事剛才說完是地方政府設的啦我們沒辦法去不然這樣我比較會說這個財政收支會分發鄉長一定在說的時候 老總統出來看鄉長一定說沒有啦 現在地方的財政比較早沒講 現在都比較改善啦齁齁齁 只有這個紅燈一燈都給收入差不多二十億落多喔"},{"start":14056.738,"end":14082.407,"text":"是因為這樣來改善財政的嗎我相信應該這不是他的本意 他的本意是要讓交通更安全 讓行人過路更好交通有更改善 宿舍有更改善 人民繼續所有的用戶人 家屬人繼續付出超度數的罰金罰款 這樣有健康嗎"},{"start":14086.42,"end":14089.329,"text":"我老公他沒有 兩轉幾壁啦"},{"start":14097.163,"end":14117.119,"text":"跟委員報告根據那個我們現在罰款的分配辦法就是主要還是過去都是用在那個那個警察的那個操作取締部分不過這部分我們會在研議說把這個相關的罰款能夠多運用在我們刀安的一個"},{"start":14118.179,"end":14143.818,"text":"設備的改善這個部分後面因為這是正版啦主席啊這要強烈要求他們喔你這樣下去就變成不健康不平衡的發展嘛法規越開越多嘛法規越嚴嘛越收起嘛還要讓你們喝嘛結果沒有實際的改善到交通的狀況嘛好不好大家加強建議一下好謝謝"},{"start":14153.5,"end":14173.548,"text":"好 接下來再請陳樹越委員質詢謝謝主席 請主席邀請次長來 次長請"},{"start":14180.786,"end":14205.05,"text":"委員好次長早安那最近就是有關這個測數照相的這個取締罰款就是成為國人注目的一個焦點那今天委員會特別排了這個專題的一個報告那就是因為在日前有一位藝人在他的粉專有提到批評說台灣的這個測數照相的一個密度之高"},{"start":14205.87,"end":14223.36,"text":"可以說是他批評說是國恥所以也引起社會廣泛的一個討論那他們就是也引起社會大眾會質疑說這個測數照相是不是淪為政府從這個人民把人民當成提款機的一個方式"},{"start":14223.98,"end":14251.512,"text":"那我想這個部分我們是不是也要請這個次長這邊先來說明一下有關這個測速照相的設置到底是由誰來設置的測速照相的設置單位應該是地方政府他設置的 對 地方政府他應該是依照他的交通的需求譬如說風險比較高也許他就是速度他會做一些限速度的一個限制是"},{"start":14252.88,"end":14280.672,"text":"一般應該都是地方政府通常應該都有一個道安匯報就是針對地方就是相關的一些交通狀況比如說交通事故或者是說比較危險的路口或者是一些比較特殊的交通狀況他們會透過道安匯報去做檢討然後也去討論這個改善的一個方式所以這個特殊照相設置的地點應該也都是會經過這樣子的一個方式"},{"start":14281.732,"end":14310.067,"text":"來決定那我想就是說從這個部分我們也看到就是說在整個台灣我們就是全國22縣市的這個有關交通罰款的一個收入的一個部分新北可以說是最高的就是說這個部分也是他們在列為年度的這個預算編列的時候的一個稅入的其中一個項目所以這個部分我們也是要讓社會大眾了解就是這樣子的一個"},{"start":14310.547,"end":14331.153,"text":"交通罰款的收入就是經由不管是警察執法的一個取締或者是科技執法這樣子一個收入是由地方政府一個收入那這樣子一個收入之後的分配全部都是地方在運用還是說有所就是中央或者是說其他單位有所分配"},{"start":14332.219,"end":14354.592,"text":"是跟委員報告我們目前那個罰款的收入如果在直轄市的部分大概是應該說地方政府先拿大概75%但是直轄市的裁罰機關是他們自己地方在做所以直轄市的部分會另外再加24%也就是說直轄市大概是針對罰款的部分他會99%都是直轄市收取"},{"start":14356.107,"end":14378.536,"text":"直轄市是99%是的那那個因為我看到有一個道路交通違規罰款的收入分配及運用辦法裡面有提到這我不曉得這是舊的嗎他是說75%是直轄市縣市政府24%是分配給處罰機關是指警政單位嗎我剛剛講的99就是1加2就是第一款加第二款總共75加24是99"},{"start":14382.308,"end":14398.446,"text":"是 那這個你可能要說清楚一點啦所以還是有24%是分配給執法的單位就是警察局 就是裁決機關裁決機關 是那我想剛剛我們郭國文委員有再提到一個問題其實這個也是"},{"start":14399.987,"end":14414.017,"text":"本席在地方有遇到的問題當然就是說超速的一個取締通常跟道路的線數是相對的所以道路的線數到底合不合理我想這個可能也是要去檢討的"},{"start":14415.098,"end":14443.684,"text":"就是說我們雖然這個科技執法這個有關超速的設置就是測速照相是地方政府設置的那如果說針對它的罰單特別多的地方我不曉得說中央有沒有就是說有沒有那個去關心一下就是說為什麼這個地方特別高要要求地方政府要去檢討在限速上有沒有什麼不合理的地方為什麼會有那麼多的罰單"},{"start":14445.445,"end":14466.848,"text":"我跟委員報告剛提到因為他們設計這個超速的照相主要我在想他們本意應該就是為了讓交通更安全原來的交通原來的道路他會依照他線型不管坡度也好轉彎半徑那些來設置一個所謂的應該有的那個速度"},{"start":14467.409,"end":14486.739,"text":"但是假設這邊也許過去常常發生一些問題交通的事故也許他就把事故把它下降或者是大家容易去超速他做這樣一個設置那個超速的一個照相那我們剛剛有提到這裡面反正75或24加起來剛剛有提到有些我們是希望他要把"},{"start":14488.781,"end":14503.443,"text":"這個罰款用到所謂對交通設施設備的一個改善這樣的話對整個交通才有幫助不是只是一味的說我就拿到錢以後罰款以後放到我的去做其他功能我想這部分我們未來再跟地方政府再多跟他協商一下"},{"start":14504.016,"end":14531.768,"text":"是好因為其實我在地方也是會遇到就是民眾在陳情就是說有的道路啊他的蠻就是說在行駛上應該是蠻安全的就是說他可能不是很彎的道路啊可是他的限速可能就50或60那事實上覺得說開到80都還算是安全的可是因為是限速50所以他只要開到70他就是超速了嗎會被"},{"start":14532.929,"end":14553.75,"text":"開單嘛那因為這個會衍生另外一個問題就是我們現在對於超速的一個罰則也非常的重就是會涉及到吊罩的一個問題所以這個都是息息相關的所以當然我們就是說對於這個道路的違規的取締我們的前提是要安全那對於就是說如果我們有"},{"start":14554.771,"end":14583.569,"text":"這樣子顯示就是說罰單特別高的地方我們可能也要再進一步是不是要去檢討一下這個什麼原因會造成設了測數照相還是這麼高的原因可能也要再去做一些檢討就是不要說只是就是為了就是設置這個科技執法去罰款這樣子那因為我們也有發現就是另外一個問題就是很多民眾反映或者是在臉書上也是有民眾在"},{"start":14584.73,"end":14599.626,"text":"就是在傳的一個訊息就是有關那個休息區的這個超速的問題休息區的那個超速的取締那休息區的那個那個也是用科技執法嘛這個部分就不是地方政府就不是地方政府設置的"},{"start":14600.885,"end":14619.943,"text":"跟各位報告那個國道的休息區是由國道公路警察局他們設置的不過那個網路上那個傳的都錯了我們在服務區那邊並沒有這個廣放設置那個測速照相的就休息區沒有設置他們只有在一處有設置而已"},{"start":14621.184,"end":14642.162,"text":"一處在哪裡好像在南投那邊是你們設的嗎公路警察局國道公路警察局為什麼會設那一處一般來說就是說因為在設置的地方其實都會是考慮到就是說他的事故事故率或者是就是說他比較容易發生危險的一個地方"},{"start":14642.918,"end":14669.925,"text":"是 我想因为这个问题就是说你虽然只设了一处可是现在被广泛的传传成说是每个休息区都有这样子的一个限制而且这样子的一个讯息的转传对我们好像也造成也是不好的一个印象我也没看到你们有什么任何澄清的有 每次都发文澄清或者是在那个网路的那个澄清区里面"},{"start":14670.385,"end":14688.753,"text":"都有 院裡面這邊我們都有相關的證據可是我覺得這樣的印象好像根深蒂固一般民眾還是不清楚我們再加強對啊 我希望說這部分應該要加強也不要讓民眾誤解啦好 謝謝好 謝謝請回來 我們再請李昆城委員質詢"},{"start":14699.602,"end":14716.115,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請次長 吳次長吳次長請委員好 次長好 辛苦了先請教一下次長 請問一下寵物電動車是不是車"},{"start":14718.801,"end":14734.99,"text":"寵物電動車寵物電動車是不是車我是不是請我們的主管說明一下是不是車這邊因為我們法規上沒有寵物電動車這樣一個名詞那應該是所以它應該是我們盜交管理處罰條例裡面的微型電動"},{"start":14736.371,"end":14753.966,"text":"二輪車吧如果是那個樣子最近看到的應該是我們的微型電動二輪車因為它是用電力為主的嘛那請教一下那現在有所謂的這種寵物電動車就是我們講這個微型電動二輪車嘛它可不可以上路"},{"start":14755.323,"end":14770.943,"text":"要經過我們審驗合格才能領牌才能上路那現在有你們審驗合格的寵物電動車是可以上路了嗎目前應該是那個新聞媒體上看到是那個應該是不是我們審驗合格的"},{"start":14771.831,"end":14786.285,"text":"所以現在有業者有送到你們那邊去是不是目前也沒有那所以不論是這一個現在媒體上面的或是說還沒有出現的現在都沒有所謂的寵物電動車到你們那邊去送檢就對了"},{"start":14789.688,"end":14813.475,"text":"因為我們按照這個6191條就是說你必須要審驗合格登記領用然後掛牌照才能行駛對不對那所以請問一下那所以現在這個所謂的寵物電動車根本不能上路嘛不能上路那如果這個業者他現在有賣他當然可以賣嘛可以賣嗎他可以賣但是他不能上就是不能上路"},{"start":14813.885,"end":14841.221,"text":"它可以賣不能上路所以買了當家裡當裝飾用就對了應該是說如果你要上路都要經過審驗合格那像我們的電動滑板車那個都是在好 那電動滑板車我等一下再問所以基本上現在這個寵物電動車它都還沒有經過這一個檢驗合格所以它不能上路嘛對不對所以如果有業者有賣但是消費者有買了上路的那責任在於誰身上"},{"start":14841.681,"end":14849.152,"text":"我們這部分我們會再持續來做一個宣導然後也會再發文給地方政府沒有啦 不是宣導因為現在"},{"start":14851.454,"end":14870.448,"text":"新聞上面就有桃園高雄都有就是業者有在賣他們也買了然後這個當然兩邊說法不一樣沒關係就是說有消費者騎上路了然後被警察抓到了就被罰錢因為他不准上路嘛那所以說這個責任在於誰身上是業者身上還是消費者身上"},{"start":14872.899,"end":14890.801,"text":"因為主要應該是業者因為應該是業者端那邊他要有他應該會比較跟消費者來講他會應該有比較多的一個法律的一個常識他知道說這什麼車可以上路什麼車不能上路所以基本上那車不能上路那消費者買了上路之後被罰錢的是消費者嗎"},{"start":14892.595,"end":14916.084,"text":"對不對因為他騎上路了就違反我們的這個道交處罰條例嘛對不對但是您剛才講的就是說那業者要負相對的責任就對了他的責任在哪裡因為他販售就是不合格的車輛然後如果說他因為那個最近看到那個新聞是他好像是有跟消費者說這個車子可以上路所以就成了一個糾紛"},{"start":14917.384,"end":14944.133,"text":"因為我有看到他們的這一個其中某一個業者的網站他上面有提到說法規在調整的階段但是他還提到說依照現行的規定合法騎乘路段限於腳踏車到公園私人空地等開放空間有嗎 可以嗎腳踏車到公園私人空地等開放空間可以嗎"},{"start":14945.247,"end":14957.86,"text":"這個是針對就是我們審驗合格的那個沒有啦現在沒有任何的審驗合格的這一個所謂的這一個寵物電動車嘛對不對是可是沒有嘛所以基本上"},{"start":14959.127,"end":14978.327,"text":"我可以這麼樣講目前沒有一台檢驗合格的寵物電動車那理論上他買了之後只能在家裡面讓寵物坐他不能夠騎出去就對了他只要騎出去就是違法所以也沒有所謂說你可以在公園、空地、腳踏車道"},{"start":14981.008,"end":15007.684,"text":"騎就對了主要是我們處罰條例公告的道路範圍這都不可以如果他這邊講的私人空地你要在家裡的院子騎那公園勒公園因為你勢必就是一定要經過道路啊那個部分就可能會有所以就不行嘛所以結論就是說他可以賣但是不能騎出去就對了那如果騎出去業者要負相對的責任就對了是"},{"start":15009.232,"end":15025.55,"text":"主席不好意思 我再請教最後一個現在我們拒絕酒測當然就是可以罰緩一次就罰18萬而且可以罰緩無上限但是最近也有看到一個例子台北市有個年輕男子"},{"start":15026.431,"end":15055.555,"text":"拒絕酒測高達七次罰超過五百萬但是他可能名下沒有財產吧無照上路然後騎車自摔然後呢因為騎車自摔所以酒測超標才依公共危險罪含送請問一下現在對於這一種他反正你就是酒測他就是拒絕拒絕你酒測然後被罰錢他也不管我看這個累積都蠻多的我們交通部或是警政署都拿他沒辦法嗎"},{"start":15057.356,"end":15082.167,"text":"目前就是依照我們現在處罰條例就是針對他的那個罰款的部分然後處理然後另外刑罰的部分還有移送公共危險罪那一塊就是酒駕罰則的部分那可以當場比如說當場就是警察認為說這個他給我測應該 聞起來就是喝酒但是他不給我酒測我應該 這個警察要怎麼處理咧"},{"start":15083.26,"end":15108.02,"text":"因為這可能要看現場執勤的警察是不是有依照他的職權行使法或者是像社會法的部分來做處理所以基本上他如果拒絕酒測你也拿他沒辦法就對了目前就是罰款的部分就是最高就是處罰就是數十八萬十八萬這樣子累積上去就對了不知道可以請警政署就現場執勤警政署這邊就簡單主席不好意思簡單答覆就好做個ending"},{"start":15113.735,"end":15124.941,"text":"報告委員如果符合185條之三那個酒駕的規定的話可以報請檢察官可以那個抽選強制願選並要再函給檢察官不然其他發掘只能強制執行強制執行"},{"start":15131.452,"end":15158.249,"text":"對啊 如果他不給你酒測你當場拿他沒辦法當場如果符合185條之3的新法規定的話就報請檢察官開強制驗血的抽血需求還在報請檢察官喔這個流程不是很長了嗎實務上哪有可能大概目前就只有這個樣子好啦 點出這個問題來你們去想一下好不好這短時間大概也沒辦法回覆好 謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝好 謝謝 官員請回"},{"start":15159.855,"end":15183.283,"text":"好 今天非常的生意非常的好來 接下來再請我們葉元智委員質詢不過這也是好事啦大家都願意共同來關心台灣的交通我們一起努力讓台灣越來越好來主席好 麻煩請交通部好 伍次長次長好 伍次長請"},{"start":15188.547,"end":15217.142,"text":"委員好這個我之前曾經有關心過區間測速的問題那當時好像不是曾經質詢過陳士凱部長陳士凱部長就推給別人然後後來又再質詢過一次另外一位次長不是您那他當時是有承諾說會給我一個全國通盤的檢討報告因為我在跟他詢答的時候我沒有舉出很多區間測速不合理的地方而且那應該是由交通部來統籌的他答應"},{"start":15218.443,"end":15241.918,"text":"結果回給我們的文是非常荒謬第一個解釋什麼叫區間測速然後講說這個區間測速就是最終目的是在控制危險或讓那個易發生的路段的速度均勻就是解釋一下這個原理然後再講說這個是各縣市政府的事情然後最後講說用路人本來就應該守樹線"},{"start":15244.15,"end":15252.666,"text":"然後最後推給內政部說即便是要檢討也應該是內政部的事天啊 我覺得交通部居然可以這個樣子耶我覺得非常的荒謬耶"},{"start":15253.837,"end":15275.578,"text":"交通部在過去在區間測速的時候我記得非常清楚當時區間測速沒有標準是交通部跳出來找標準局定一個標準出來後來說有一度發生就是區間測速的鏡頭是用到大陸製的鏡頭當時林佳龍部長也說哪一個縣市政府你如果再沒有給我改的話區間測速不補助"},{"start":15277.359,"end":15299.074,"text":"所以交通部對於區間測速本來就是有責任結果現在可以把這個區間測速可以推得一乾二淨跟你交通部都無關那社長你們為什麼態度是這樣啊我跟委員報告確實剛提到的區間測速它的全責是在警政單位啊不是啦 警政單位我講一個好不好是"},{"start":15300.097,"end":15311.389,"text":"台六四台六五為什麼會有區間撤訴是因為新北市的警察局接受公路局的委託請問一下公路局是交通部還是警政署"},{"start":15313.339,"end":15341.618,"text":"公路局是交通部還是警政署市長公路局是交通部還是警政署公路局我沒有找公路局我是問你交通部交通部嘛是所以怎麼可以推給警政署呢如果不是交通部針對交通安全的話警政署沒事他去訂這個公運幹嘛所以你們作為一個全國的機關應該訂定一個指引出來嘛針對全台灣這麼多縣市這麼多人民對於區間廁所質疑你要訂定一個指引讓各縣市政府來遵守"},{"start":15342.378,"end":15371.556,"text":"不是說跟你們都毫無關係啦我先就問市長你知不知道為什麼全台灣那麼多人對區間測數很反感你知道原因嗎你知不知道原因你完全不知道交通部完全對於大家對區間測數的反感完全不知道完全不知道不是 因為這不是我的夜館所以我沒那麼清楚區間測數現在不是在講那個測數的問題嗎那你不是因為部長沒來所以欸 主席我可以暫停一下是可以這樣子喔 主席"},{"start":15372.438,"end":15387.11,"text":"部長有事然後找了一個對於這個速限管理比較不了解的人說不是他業管業務所以他不了解可以這樣子喔可以要求官員說明他說他不了解啊不是 我可以請我的那個業管的那個同仁來說明嗎業管同仁 好"},{"start":15391.67,"end":15404.018,"text":"跟委員報告我們了解區間測數最近在社會上討論的熱度很高可是我們還是必須要強調區間測數它是一個執法的行為我現在在問什麼問題"},{"start":15406.004,"end":15429.151,"text":"我問什麼問題 你就針對我的問題回答因為市長不想回答 叫你回答你就針對我的問題回答就好了我的問題是什麼區間測速它 我們在那個不是 我的問題是什麼你剛才有提到在幾個快速道路上面是公路局去拜託我的問題是說為什麼現在各界很多用戶人對於區間測速很反感你知道原因嗎"},{"start":15430.931,"end":15456.574,"text":"我個人的理解 第一個可能是開單的數量很多那第二個 對於這樣子的錢 就是那個罰金似乎是沒有用在道路的交易我跟你講 第一個啦大家覺得說這不會達到效果啦不會達到效果 去年測數 你這測頭尾嘛所以很多人一開始速度超過了快要到的時候開始減速嘛減速之後就造成回賭嘛"},{"start":15458.069,"end":15481.23,"text":"而且大家 照道理來講發生車禍最主要原因是因為沒有跟前面保持安全距離結果現在為了要盯那個速限有沒有超過平均所以要一直看著儀表板反而沒有去跟前面保持安全距離所以你不見得安全啊還有第二個就是密度太高了嘛光台六市中間一段有五個區間測速"},{"start":15483.206,"end":15510.761,"text":"所以第一個數卷定的很不合理嘛第二個你密度定到那麼高嘛而且第三個你到底能不能達到真正的效果嘛大家現在質疑的是這件事情跟委員說明一下從警政署的資料上看起來區間測數或者是科技執法的路段的檔案是有改善的哪一個路段不是每一個路段都有改善啊我們是有數據的而且你有的是很不合理嘛譬如說數卷部分我看到網路上有一個影片"},{"start":15511.641,"end":15533.132,"text":"他在北宜公路上面一條下坡然後腳踏車一下就超速了速限不合理密度太高而且區間車速它本身的問題國外很多是沒有測速照相機的耶加拿大加拿大現在把那個有一個省把那個測速照相機全部都拆掉啦因為他認為改善道路才是重點啦"},{"start":15533.692,"end":15562.628,"text":"所有的用路人會根據這個道路的路寬視野或他離房屋的遠近程度自己會判斷安全距離嘛你現在就是直接定時而且那個速度那個數字是變來變去的一下這邊是30一下那邊是40跟委員報告加拿大那個例子全世界只有他這個例子他還沒有沒有你要來講國外的例子我也可以跟你講啦歐美國家他的速限很多都是固定的啦不會像我們這樣子跳來跳去啦密度也沒有那麼高啦如果要講國外的話講不完了啦"},{"start":15563.462,"end":15579.376,"text":"我現在會這麼憤怒的原因是因為之前就已經跟你們講說做全國的通盤檢討結果回這種文來我是在問你區間測數的定義嗎你們交通部對於區間測數的這種反應比那個AI還不如啦"},{"start":15581.127,"end":15604.512,"text":"AI講得還比你們清楚現在是請你們針對這個區間測數做通盤檢討定出一個指引到底密度應該定多高速度應該定多高甚至於如果發現很多地方效果不好的話就應該要廢除現在講的是這件事情可不可以給一個認真針對區間測數回一個報告可以嗎不要這樣敷衍好不好"},{"start":15609.284,"end":15630.998,"text":"市長報委員 我剛提的說譬如說要去訂說到底密度多少這真的是要依照每一個路段對嘛 那你就去看嘛那你訂個指引啊你訂個怎麼樣路段 怎麼樣路寬怎麼樣的標準應該怎麼做你訂個指引出來啊然後大家可以針對這指引做討論啊各縣政府有個遵循啊有那麼困難嗎"},{"start":15632.051,"end":15646.946,"text":"市長 是不是我們相關單位到業委員辦公室這邊再做一個不是 你現在就承諾嘛因為這個是之前就承諾要給的東西啊結果你回一個公文來比AI寫的還不如來敷衍我們你現在就承諾啊"},{"start":15648.171,"end":15663.361,"text":"大家都很想知道啦大家都很知道區間測速標準怎麼定出來的因為區間測速它是一個執法的行為以交通部的立場我沒有辦法跟警政單位說哪裡可以執法哪裡不可以那你公路局為什麼委託新北市警察局在六四上面設那麼多區間測速"},{"start":15670.235,"end":15694.46,"text":"是不是在會後到沒有 我要一個回文我要一個檢討報告根本報告下台六十四 台六十五部分並不是這一個公務局去委託警察機關建置是這個執法設備當時在早期有補助設備的建置但是設備的建置還是由警察機關來做建置他是他建置你有沒有叫他去建置沒有"},{"start":15695.36,"end":15707.791,"text":"沒有 所以這個是警政署有來嗎所以警政署這個完全區間測數都是你們看的這個跑去測跑去見的嗎跟交通單位都沒關"},{"start":15712.745,"end":15739.8,"text":"地方報上來的當然地方報 地方警政單位嘛警政一定要編嘛所以都是地方警政報上來的是他們自己決定我明明看到的資料是說他們接受公務局的委託現在大家突然推舉都不想要碰這一塊這個部分我就不瞭解了我們執行員每一個都不瞭解每一個都不瞭解你事後給一份檢討報告這是之前答應要給的我現在是針對你給的報告不滿意嘛"},{"start":15743.188,"end":15761.569,"text":"主席可不可以裁示一下主席在針對這個葉委員需要的報告我想先跟葉委員再了解一下葉委員關心的一個方向那並且在葉委員要求時間裡面回覆葉委員報告好不好好我覺得一個月內因為這個是之前大家要給的"},{"start":15762.836,"end":15779.797,"text":"你們盡速跟葉委員來做一個了解跟不用了解了啦就是直接給報告就好了主席採視一下這樣知道葉委員想要的方向嗎我們會後再跟委員報告好了好不好"},{"start":15782.014,"end":15802.635,"text":"不是讓他們到你辦公室我要一個通盤檢討確認是說那個通盤檢討報告到底要寫到什麼樣的一個程度其實葉委員所提出來關心議題我們前面幾位委員也都已經有關心過不管是區間照相不管是測數照相其實這都是議題的狀況那本席也說剛剛部長在"},{"start":15805.45,"end":15823.642,"text":"幾位委員職群的時候也有答覆說可以找縣市政府這邊來開會所以是不是針對業委員這邊所特別關心測速照相的部分尤其是有特定路段的地方那也可以來了解之後那依照業委員需要時間裡面進促的回應這樣可以嗎好 謝謝這樣可以嗎"},{"start":15830.357,"end":15858.918,"text":"我還是希望我們再跟找同仁再跟那個葉委員這邊我剛不是已經講了嗎就是你們再同仁再到葉委員辦公室來確認一下是那之後一起有做回應的時候再盡速的提供回覆給葉委員這樣可以嗎好 我們要召委的差事好 謝謝來 官員請回來 接下來再請徐欣盈委員質詢"},{"start":15861.161,"end":15878.852,"text":"那我們還剩後面幾位委員我們就一併質詢完畢之後我們會休息10分鐘 謝謝來謝謝主席 本席有請交通部武次長來武次長請"},{"start":15886.483,"end":15901.709,"text":"委員好市長 本席請教你這個我們在穿越比較寬大的馬路30米或20米以上的這種馬路的時候我們都要走斑馬線那我走到路口的時候我突然發現這個小綠人"},{"start":15903.57,"end":15922.442,"text":"他剛開始變快就是閃爍那因為我腳程快我也可以小跑步過這個馬路所以我就很快的等於說就快速的過馬路您覺得這樣還OK嗎我是要回答問的我就是要請你問就是我剛這樣描述還OK嗎"},{"start":15925.754,"end":15948.054,"text":"因為剛講如果那個秒數不太夠如果讓你去用快步的快速的腳步去跑的話其實會容易發生危險不是 我就跟你講我腳城快 我腳也長我就跑過去而且我跑到的時候還剛好這是很難判斷說這樣可以嗎我就請教你這樣可以嗎你覺得"},{"start":15950.613,"end":15977.335,"text":"沒有辦法去了解說確認對沒有辦法確認說他是不是可以安全到達你身為交通部次長你都不知道那我不知道上來的這位是我們司長司長那司長你覺得我這樣OK嗎原則上我們並不鼓勵行人在行川線上面跑步那我這樣有違法嗎沒有OK那可是我們有民眾就因為這樣"},{"start":15978.928,"end":16007.662,"text":"就被開罰了500塊而且我這邊沒有我們好像交通道路管理條例第幾條我的助理不見了207條 207條規定是不行的我這個要講的是什麼我也是因為今天我們英明的召委排了這個行人交通道路安全我們在討論這個議題然後收集民眾的很多的反應"},{"start":16008.817,"end":16021.108,"text":"我也才知道 我这样是违法的市长 我要讲的是我们前两年因为被国外媒体披露说台湾是行人的地狱"},{"start":16022.031,"end":16050.548,"text":"有這種汙名所以呢我們的交通部就大幅的大幅的修正很多交通法規而且強化這個執法強度結果造成現在交通的執法細節非常的多很多的判定標準只有在行政函式或者是內部作業規定你看一問你也覺得OK連我們司長也覺得還OK喔我也覺得OK可是這樣已經違法了"},{"start":16051.912,"end":16075.121,"text":"所以我們現在缺乏就我們交通部為了這個洗刷這個汙名OK 我覺得利益良善可是我們並沒有真正的讓民眾清楚知道也沒有改變不管用路人或者是我們這個駕駛的行為模式甚至連法規都不清楚所以本席在這裡今天我也有提案"},{"start":16076.481,"end":16098.768,"text":"這個我們因為缺乏統一而且容易懂得公開的資訊的管道所以讓民眾不明瞭這個法律的細節所以常常誤觸法網然後就被開罰單那有的時候又很容易受到媒體片面的錯誤的資訊的一些誤導這個媒體包含自媒體各種現在非常的這個"},{"start":16100.509,"end":16128.086,"text":"多元所以本席希望交通部會同內政部警政署要針對我們執法標準透明化還有法規資訊的禁用性要提出改進方案可以嗎我請次長次長可以嗎因為這個我可不可以請那個內政部警政署沒有沒有沒有這跟交通部因為交通部法規然後加上警政署執法嘛所以是不是可以你們要整合出"},{"start":16129.578,"end":16151.206,"text":"凸解法規的資料庫還有及時的闢謠機制可以嗎這個可以應該要嘛對不對因為你現在很多民眾我隨便舉個例今天是因為時間的關係不然我舉出來我問大家我們現場的大家都不知道啊可是我們都要走在路上啊可以喔對好本席有這個提案再來就是很快的"},{"start":16152.639,"end":16179.812,"text":"我看到警政署的報告我們112年科技執法46萬件113年84萬件114年今年才到10月統計到10月已經144萬那所以這個報告好像蠻洋洋得意抓了蠻多的可是我們發現這個科技執法並沒有改變駕駛人的行為模式"},{"start":16180.745,"end":16201.3,"text":"好像變成我們開罰單開上癮了罰單滿天飛但是車禍照樣撞所以我們要請警政署的代表先上來一下我們是不是可以在一個月內交出一份科技執法的績效總體檢報告"},{"start":16203.322,"end":16221.398,"text":"科技執法績效總體檢報告而且本席要看到兩個欄位的對照該年度入口比如說我們有十大二十大取締這個重大入口的年度取締的件數跟該入口年度事故的下降率"},{"start":16221.858,"end":16234.683,"text":"我們要看出你一直取締你看這個每年飆升了三倍兩年飆升三倍你是抓很多沒錯可是我們想知道你這種事故率有沒有下降"},{"start":16235.891,"end":16253.134,"text":"有沒有真正因為我相信大家都認同次長一定認同我們警政署也認同我們交通的執法交通的處罰是為了交通安全不是為處罰而處罰更不是為了開罰單對不對所以我們要看成效可以提供嗎"},{"start":16255.063,"end":16280.124,"text":"可以嗎 可以可以喔 OK那最後本席那警政署請回本席最後要跟次長次長這裡就是有關TPAS我很快的講一下TPAS是很好的讓我們國人通勤族很好的一個措施但是如果我新竹到台北為什麼沒有我新竹到台中也沒有"},{"start":16281.719,"end":16295.194,"text":"這個部分可不可以來改善 改進市長因為TPAS它主要是以一個通勤對 一個交通一個生活圈所以那個生活圈變成你在定義"},{"start":16296.4,"end":16325.238,"text":"你踢帕子這個部分跟你報告一下踢帕子大概現在有三種形式第一個部分大家常講的這個區域型的月票如果是區域型這個月票的話原則上像大家現在談的這個北北基桃市以生活圈或是中央投票那如果說這個新竹要拓展到這個北北基桃這個生活圈裡面的話那基本上就要有這幾個地方政府大家共同來商議因為這個切割到這個相關經費分擔的部分那"},{"start":16326.038,"end":16353.952,"text":"來 那我請教你技術上沒問題吧技術上沒問題這個東西就好像這個雙北跟桃園跟基隆就可以結成一個生活圈但是縣政府新竹縣政府也已經提出樂觀騎乘但是因為這個東西那新竹縣政府要跟這個如果要加入這個北北基桃這個生活圈的話他就必須要再跟這四個縣所以本席要講的是TPAS是我們交通部在全國弄的嘛對不對 設置的"},{"start":16354.432,"end":16365.551,"text":"那現在你全國你應該要讓民眾你竟然TPAS我有可能我新竹到台北新竹到台中我其實距離都一樣那我也有這樣的需求"},{"start":16367.399,"end":16388.178,"text":"這個T帕子應該要可以而且我相信也不只這樣也許中張頭雲嘉南他們也有所謂跨所謂的生活圈的部分所以這個部分交通部可不可以整體的來我們都會協助地方政府像剛剛講的這個蘭高坪然後這個中張頭然後北北基然後這個桃竹苗"},{"start":16392.102,"end":16408.507,"text":"大家都有個別的我現在就是新竹到台北新竹到台中如果說這個新竹縣政府有跟這個現行這個北北基島去談的話如果有提出計畫的話公共局會很樂意來做協助所以這個不是因為我們中央設置的不是中央來"},{"start":16409.887,"end":16428.724,"text":"因為跟生活圈的行程必須要地方有共識那如果說是屬於跨層級的部分如果是屬於跨層級的部分我現在就說你T-PASS你可不可以民眾有這樣的需求的你可不可以賣票給他嘛我現在就是要買新竹到台北的啊T-PASS你可以嗎"},{"start":16429.585,"end":16455.158,"text":"你說這個還有我新竹到台中的新竹到台北維尼講的意思是講說整個這個台北跟新竹有一個月票是不是對啊這個東西確實是要地方有共識啦這個跟我也報告一下地方可以啊地方有共識中央可以來主導嗎中央可不可以來主導之前生活圈的部分都是各地方先有共識然後中央來這個協助啦"},{"start":16457.239,"end":16475.851,"text":"這個有時候中央沒有辦法強迫地方去做整個啦地方有共識啦那你現在TPAS的主管單位你可不可以你就把現在有這樣的一個缺洞你們來把它補強嗎可以吧這還是要地方政府他剛剛講他有個共識提上來因為就簽到經費的一個分攤啦"},{"start":16480.834,"end":16508.895,"text":"所以你讓地方政府他自己可是因為跨縣市他的需求是什麼譬如說剛講北北基桃就這幾個他有認為他有推出這樣的一個月票的一個情況你現在講的北北基桃你是用生活圈我現在講的是我們的民眾他就是會有這個需求我舉新竹到台北新竹到台中是因為我接收到的反應很多那我也跟你講中南部一定也有"},{"start":16510.867,"end":16529.659,"text":"那你們身為TPAS的主管單位嘛所以你主管單位你現在有這樣的需求那這個好 縣政府行文給你們你們就會召開會議了是不是各位有沒有這個TPAS有三種型態如果是區域型的部分那原則上地方政府也要有共識那如果是程序型的部分的話"},{"start":16530.919,"end":16546.569,"text":"局裡面也提供兩種方式如果搭公路客運你這個每月搭11次或30次都有不同的折扣那最近12月1號才推出如果說你搭台北到這一個新竹到台北的國道客運你只要搭這個一個月搭兩次就有15%的回饋"},{"start":16547.97,"end":16575.098,"text":"那如果說這個搭這個一個月四次又有這個那我要月票呢月票你就縮成是生活圈月票的部分的話如果說是因為現在這個月票是針對長達族就是每天在用的部分啦如果說是剛剛委員講的部分是想說新竹跟台北結合起來他這樣一個月票到這個台北用可以搭捷運可以搭公車然後一樣想說月票這樣子的一個在一個定額裡面去"},{"start":16575.958,"end":16590.996,"text":"不限次數去使用的話這個東西就必須要地方政府大家那如果他要台北到新竹新竹到台北新竹或新竹到台中的就這樣子的通勤的這個月票你們可以嗎"},{"start":16592.918,"end":16619.591,"text":"委員這個可能要請新竹縣政府先定義清楚啦如果說是需要台鐵的通行月票台鐵本身各種運具裡面本身就有月票如果說是必須要跟在地的這些相關捷運系統我先建議一下好不好因為新竹我們徐新義委員為新竹的鄉親來發聲啦那我想這個是民意代表本來就是要為所有大新竹地區來努力那是不是先請交通部這邊也跟新竹縣政府了解一下說到底有多少的民眾"},{"start":16620.431,"end":16630.124,"text":"有新竹到台北的通勤需求因為這才是TPAS當初發出來的一個初衷嘛你是要解決每天的通勤需求嘛"},{"start":16632.426,"end":16657.959,"text":"徐新委員已經有提出這樣的一個陳情這也是接受到很多陳情之後的反應那是不是請公路局這邊來做了解那了解完之後也再跟徐新委員這邊來做報告那如果說這個需求真的到一定程度新竹縣政府也願意有部分的一個經費負擔該交通部這邊來召集會議等等的部分我想交通部也以中央主管機關的身份能夠來再適時的關心這樣可以嗎"},{"start":16660.3,"end":16675.39,"text":"謝謝主席我們最主要的目的是對我們主席所說的還有就是TPAS你應該要普及全台你不是只有生活圈啦我特別講TPAS想辦法能夠是全台適用謝謝來再來請林月琴委員質詢"},{"start":16693.827,"end":16716.462,"text":"主席麻煩交通部跟國土署來 是交通部 國土署國土署 國土署來次長午安 午安好那今天的議程規劃事實上是行人安全跟科技執法我有兩個問題要跟次長來做討論首先先請次長看一下這樣子的這張圖下一頁好"},{"start":16721.707,"end":16727.673,"text":"那我不知道市長看得懂嗎 這樣的道路標誌標線的畫色哪裡有問題看得出來嗎 剛剛委員講的是說他的標線 這樣的標誌標線哪邊有問題好"},{"start":16748.171,"end":16761.968,"text":"能看得出來嗎好那我們就再來看下一頁當時在那個道教條例主條審查的時候我就提出通學區的定義統一的附帶決議"},{"start":16763.73,"end":16790.838,"text":"請交通部務必於56條第6項修正後一個月內一個月內召集教育部跟內政部國土署跟地方政府針對通學區的劃設跟定義延伸統一的標準因為剛剛那是吉林國小那就是所謂的通學區了才能讓新修正的條文真正落實那至今怎麼到現在我不知道你們通學區的定義"},{"start":16792.202,"end":16813.343,"text":"已經出來了沒否則的話 通學環境周遭的入口的視距問題我們再回到前一頁再去看那張圖有沒有發現停在那邊孩子的身影就是會被遮住根本孩子就是沒有辦法被看到難怪我們兒少的交通史上事實上會是高尤其在穿越道路的時候為什麼"},{"start":16813.883,"end":16840.274,"text":"因為所以當時為什麼會有這樣的要求就是在學區範圍內不應該有讓地方政府自己決定說我要不要在這邊為了停車空間之後去劃設停車位置所以想問次長這部分處理了嗎因為我週一請同仁問你們部的聯絡人得到的確認後回覆是今天週四到現在還是沒有任何消息所以只能在這邊來問次長"},{"start":16849.562,"end":16864.456,"text":"市長我的質詢時間也很有限現在是不是可以給我答案事後再跟委員回報好不好事後再給我們回報那是什麼時候呢我們在一週內跟委員回報"},{"start":16866.568,"end":16892.712,"text":"各位下禮拜一跟我們這邊講因為很重視這個問題因為市長也看到了入口跟停車切齊的那個狀況底下物理視角非常大還是個子又非常的矮那駕駛人大家通常沒有辦法看到身形比較小的小孩所以確認這個定義之後邀請你們地方政府盤點清楚之後所要改善的數量這個可以做到嗎"},{"start":16894.315,"end":16918.388,"text":"可以啦 這個是可以的可以喔來 那再看齁我去年總質詢就提到倒入交通違規罰還收入分配及運用辦法的問題這幾天我相信次長也看到了大家對於科技執法的討論熱烈今天才會有這個議程的規劃當然設置與否是地方政府警政單位的權責跟交通部無關但這一辦法"},{"start":16920.209,"end":16935.415,"text":"這一步辦法的修正我認為交通部不能再當院大頭了一定要好好的調整清楚甚至整部的辦法都應該要重新檢討可是我要問市長這個辦法目前的修正進度是什麼"},{"start":16938.052,"end":16951.009,"text":"先跟委員報告因為這個辦法目前是卡在那個卡在哪裡因為去年我總質詢的時候就說藥修正你們也同意了可是到現在然後今年說五月那預計六月公告可是現在公告了嗎"},{"start":16952.211,"end":16966.585,"text":"目前還沒有因為就卡在那個財政紀律法的疑慮的部分我們還在跟後面還在跟我們對那次長什麼時候因為我說去年總諮詢的時候有同意要去處理"},{"start":16968.307,"end":16983.095,"text":"我跟委員報告目前我們會在第一個這個辦法還沒修正之前我們會先跟地方政府先溝通看協調把 給我時間因為我現在最關心的就是時間因為我說等了一年半所以我想知道時間"},{"start":16985.444,"end":17013.002,"text":"辦法的修正是至少你們接下來怎麼做否則本來預計事實上是回應我的時候6月要公告可是現在已經是12月初了又過了半年了部裡面現在預計一個月內會先開找地方政府先開會因為辦法的修正什麼時候找地方政府開會你們之前沒有開過嗎一年半的時間沒有開過嗎之前有開過會主要是討論那個那只開過一次嗎"},{"start":17015.746,"end":17022.499,"text":"為什麼到目前甚至六月公告的時候到現在 說要六月公告到現在也沒公告呢我們之前也有徵詢 用書面徵詢各單位意見"},{"start":17026.268,"end":17047.055,"text":"開會也有我現在問的就是時間可不可以告訴我時間我們在一個月內會再找地方政府先把後面那個罰款分配的一個比例先做調整那我也要請你們後宵處理因為等的時間夠長了那謝謝次長請回那接下來我們的國土署這邊"},{"start":17051.658,"end":17056.102,"text":"行人優先交通安全行動綱領112年就出爐了在工程"},{"start":17057.25,"end":17084.254,"text":"面向上定有幾個具體的改善目標跟數量113年行人條例通過實施後這些目標也都訂定每年的KPI值我這陣子 大家也跟業務單位有索取最新的改善統計數據我有注意到行人友善區的設置似乎進度落後了想問一下國土部署這邊現在全台大概有幾處已經核被建置了"},{"start":17085.249,"end":17111.277,"text":"現在大概有兩處還是三處總共今年我們目標是五處我們今年目標是五處大概都在台北市因為行人友善區事實上是定在行人安全條例的第五條然後是法定業務如果地方如果不願意配合的話認為中央應該思考是不是有任何的政治工具可以來要求或協助為什麼我們這樣提呢你看第五條"},{"start":17112.638,"end":17131.094,"text":"除了友善區以外還有人行道的分年分期的一個建設計畫安全設施的改善計畫那根據我收到的資料全台分別還有四個與兩個縣市事實上政府事實上是沒有核定跟完成的甚至有地方政府還沒有提送"},{"start":17132.397,"end":17146.782,"text":"就分年分期的有四個縣市事實上是沒有完成核定那行人設施跟改善計畫有兩個縣市事實上是還沒有做那我不知道國土組這邊有沒有去了解地方執行的障礙是什麼然後你們要如何排除"},{"start":17147.722,"end":17173.363,"text":"我們都有去含吹含吹這個縣市要來提報相關的我等於說不是含吹嗎他們一定有一些障礙因為我們過去在看學區改善的時候很常是地方有些的民意代表也好或者是林里長也好或居民就是反對的所以我不知道這時候我想有沒有引進民間團體的資源非常重要我相信國土署應該也很瞭解"},{"start":17173.863,"end":17192.003,"text":"因為像日本做法就是要地方的一個溝通所以過去的很多的經典案例包含私大的商圈跟安居街的爭議都是由來民間單位去跟業務單位一起通力合作去溝通那你有沒有去了解他們是有沒有這樣子的一個困難"},{"start":17194.168,"end":17208.757,"text":"困難是應該有啦但是就是我們還是會持續跟他們溝通我還是希望你們能夠去協助讓他們了解到怎麼去跟地方溝通來解決這問題否則的話這六個縣市目前至今都沒有去有進一步的計畫"},{"start":17209.622,"end":17237.696,"text":"好我們會回去 一樣是什麼時候因為我覺得我發現時間事實上對我們來講是蠻重要的就等的時間很長我們在今年年底以前就會到現在12月1號了12月4號那年底麻煩我們安排去跟他們溝通好謝謝好謝謝來再來請邱志偉邱志偉委員不在請林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":17248.074,"end":17251.529,"text":"主席 教委我是不是先請次長來我次長請"},{"start":17255.919,"end":17276.946,"text":"好 次長好 今天時間已經很緊迫我先就一個小case來這邊跟您先做個反應那近期有民眾在小綠人號誌燈號閃爍時來起步穿越道路結果被罰員警依照道路交通管理處罰條例第78條 第一項第一款他認為行人不依標誌標線號誌之指示或警察的指揮結果就處罰清台幣500塊"},{"start":17279.227,"end":17285.671,"text":"那這個就產生一個問題你們的那個號誌的處理規則200道路交通標誌標線號誌設置規則207條規定行人行走時綠燈閃爍的時候代表這個綠燈時間不多所以行人要跨越道路"},{"start":17301.259,"end":17315.713,"text":"這個時候就不能再走那你們覺得這個部分對一般民眾來講直觀嗎那很多人直覺只要小綠燈亮著或他在閃爍都可以過馬路所以在倒數的時候大家是加速通過結果被罰這樣設計您覺得OK嗎"},{"start":17318.698,"end":17339.001,"text":"我想這是應該可能是宣導不足 剛剛提到 剛剛也有人提到這個問題其實我們不太鼓勵在那個行人穿越道那邊去做所謂的奔跑或是比較快速的通過 因為這樣其實蠻危險的我們希望你不要衝突那他剛剛提醒說已經剩下時間不多"},{"start":17340.322,"end":17363.441,"text":"我個人是認為應該要稍微注意一下是否有足夠的時間本席認為你們的這個設計應該多照顧多數人的一個直觀的反應因為你在閃的時候其實某種程度讓大家覺得那應該要趕快來通過結果這樣子被罰本席是認為很不合理那應該在你們的設計上要做一個處理所以本席這邊為這個小小市民來做一個請命"},{"start":17364.542,"end":17390.89,"text":"好不好那這個部分你們應該就設計跟直觀的層面不要讓大家產生一些模糊結果又依照法規給人家罰了那小市民的這個荷包可能沒辦法容許大家這樣子隨便依法然後就把有點像是嚴罰這樣子好不好好第二件事情本席想要請教一下次長我想也請幾位我想這個道安陸鎮道安司觀光署是不是一起上來"},{"start":17394.051,"end":17409.826,"text":"我們的代表陸正思是司長嗎吳司長還有道安想請教次長您知不知道什麼叫朝聖之路西班牙那個嘛那您知不知道什麼叫聖雅各路"},{"start":17412.345,"end":17431.965,"text":"那你要用功一點本席在去年第一個會期總質詢的時候就提出這個概念在一些委員會本席也一直提出這個概念如果你對朝聖之路的理解是這樣雖然它有一大段的定義是需要再被詮釋的但是你如果理解是這樣那聖雅各路就等於你所理解的朝聖之路"},{"start":17433.824,"end":17455.461,"text":"其實本席在講這個概念的時候已經講很多但最重要的提到了一個重要的重點就是整個環島路線的一個連續性跟安全性本席今天不要再跟你講這個宗教或者是性靈方面的這個問題但是最重要就是說那整個台灣本島的環島線是不是"},{"start":17456.061,"end":17477.892,"text":"有達到連續性跟安全性的一個標準這是第一個還是本席去年這個所謂台灣聖亞各路福爾摩沙縣的概念其實是針對台灣的徒步路網自行車路網的不連續那因為這種不連續而導致一些不安全其實本席這邊有提出一些建議也跟你們指出來"},{"start":17479.053,"end":17495.21,"text":"那麼第二個部分是很多本島的主要幹道對步行及自行車的友善性不足還有步行自行車本來是綠色運輸主要的核心但是許多路都非常具有高風險那它跟這個高風險的這個動力車"},{"start":17500.014,"end":17525.772,"text":"跟無動力車沒有有效的分離這個其實你們可不可以去看一下本席的質詢或者是有記錄下來這個東西本席這邊其實都講得很清楚甚至有一些地方沒有自行車道其實就是你們去年在六月份講得好像全國都把它連起來那事實上本席實地的走訪有些地方其實自行車是沒有辦法走的更遑論人走在上面是非常危險的"},{"start":17526.533,"end":17553.216,"text":"那如果你知道朝聖之路跟聖雅各路大家是怎麼走的你就會知道跟理解這個本席所談的困難是在哪裡所以其實這風險是很高那你們要談綠色運輸那如果安全跟風險的問題沒有辦法解決的話那你們能怎麼處理呢然後很重要的是你們從去年到今年也沒有跟本席說你們目前的做法是如何本席是從民間了解到你們在外島"},{"start":17553.837,"end":17581.048,"text":"有仿這樣子的概念在做但是本島本席所提出來的從這個概念上在安全性上來講的路線你們通通都沒有回應過所以截至目前為止本席不知道你們這個部分做到哪裡所以請教部長兩件事第一個針對台11線及穿越原住民的部落山海地區的省道及鄉道交通部你們是不是盤點人車共道的這個路徑然後針對其安全"},{"start":17581.708,"end":17599.629,"text":"優化做了改善 本期其實去年一直提還有邊坡上的某一些問題 第二你們竟然在2023年已經推動永續提升行人安全的計畫 明定中央跟地方合作來改善人行道步行跨域交通環境"},{"start":17600.169,"end":17611.236,"text":"那你們常常在回應的時候就說這個都要地方有共識像剛才本席聽到這個徐委員在質詢的時候地方有共識 地方有共識各位我們是中央耶你們什麼時候可以積極認識積極認識從中央來帶動地方然後給地方應有的支撐所以你們是不是把可以把部落或東海岸偏鄉的原住民"},{"start":17624.244,"end":17639.091,"text":"居民來納入你們計畫優先去考量人車分道行人自行道專用的通用的這個改善範圍在工程預算上讓規格來符合標準是不是可以簡單做一個回應"},{"start":17641.798,"end":17661.472,"text":"對其實觀光有很大的這個注意啦所以本席講的是一連串但是其實你們分段都沒有做好本席其實從去年到今年都沒有得到你們很系統性跟結構性的一些回應所以今天我只針對道路安全這個部分來講那是不是可以簡單做一個回應有沒有可能把它放置進去優先的一個考量"},{"start":17663.111,"end":17688.464,"text":"我先跟委員報告就是有關於這個台11線的部分那這個11線是因為部落很多那他就跟本席所講的聖雅各路這個概念是有連結的那請 因為目前花東的部分的話我們是有另外一個計畫是但是那個最主要是在台九花東景觀大道那所以針對台11線委員提的這個部分的話是不是容許我們一點時間跟部落做一個整體的這個盤點"},{"start":17689.745,"end":17710.423,"text":"是不是會後也跟本席這邊做一個補充台九台十一然後這中間聯絡的路網就是所謂你們在外島推的台版朝聖之路跟本席去年所講的福爾摩沙路線路網的概念麻煩你們在會後把相關資料讓本席知道而且來跟本席做一個溝通跟補充好嗎謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":17714.651,"end":17733.5,"text":"來 官員請回好 再來請林德福委員 林德福委員 林德福委員不在好登記質詢委員均已發言完畢 作以下決定一 報告及宣達完畢二 委員黃婕 蔡其昌 林德福 邱志偉 徐欣盈所提書面質詢列入記錄 並且刊登公報"},{"start":17734.48,"end":17751.477,"text":"三委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部盡速以書面答覆現在休息五分鐘休息以後再進行法案的逐條審查跟法案無關的機關代表可以先行離席我們現在休息"},{"start":18088.669,"end":18114.318,"text":"好交通委員會現在繼續開會大家辛苦了那本日會議法案逐條審查程序各案先一併宣讀條文如果有修正動議也一併宣布全部宣讀完後在逐案進行協商處理那我們在宣讀過程裡面大家上午一整天開會都非常辛苦都還沒有中午用餐所以我們也請列席的官員就是可以自由的用餐那我們現在請宣讀條文"},{"start":18116.656,"end":18135.22,"text":"宣讀委員邱若驊等16人委員黃建豪等17人分別擬具道路交通管理處罰條例第31條之1條文修正草案委員徐富奎等17人擬具道路交通管理處罰條例第79條條文修正草案委員柯志恩等16人擬具道路交通管理處罰條例第86條條文修正草案"},{"start":18135.64,"end":18152.55,"text":"委員黃建豪等十七人擬據道路交通管理處罰條例第九十條條文修正草案委員邱若驊等十六人提案第三十一條之一第二三項莫具修正處新台幣兩千元罰還暫定第六項第三項實施及宣導辦法由交通部會同衛生福利部定之"},{"start":18153.13,"end":18179.755,"text":"與同現行條文委員黃建豪等17人提案第31條之一第三項默劇修正處新台幣2000元罰還與同現行條文委員徐富奎等17人提案第79條修正行人維銷文消防車救護車警備車工程救險車毒性化學物質災害事故應變車之警號不利及逼讓者處新台幣三圈600元罰還委員柯志恩等16人提案第86條"},{"start":18181.215,"end":18189.912,"text":"修正第一項第六款行經設有學校醫院標誌之路段不減速慢行原第六款之第十款第一為第七款之第十一款雲童線型調溫"},{"start":18191.553,"end":18211.627,"text":"委員黃建豪等17人提案第90條第一項中斷於兩個月不得舉發但之後增訂有下列期刑之一則不在此限原條文單數一列為第一款增訂第二款汽機車駕駛人依第35條規定測試檢定案件期其日自測試檢定終結之日起算於同線型條文"},{"start":18214.881,"end":18235.897,"text":"委員邱若驊等20人擬拒大眾捷運法第11條條文修正草案委員蔡其昌等21人擬拒大眾捷運法部分條文修正草案委員李昆澤等20人擬拒大眾捷運法第39條第43條及第43條之一條文修正草案及委員蔡其昌等人所提修正動議委員邱若驊等"},{"start":18236.658,"end":18257.658,"text":"二十人提案第一項第十一條修正第一項第三款環境永續及淨零減碳目標與同線型條文委員李昆澤等二十人提案第三十九條修正第一項後段及異常事件增訂第二項至第六項地方主管機關得救大眾捷運系統營運機構依前項規定所提提"},{"start":18258.278,"end":18281.053,"text":"報告內容 要求大眾捷運信討營運機構負責人或相關主管說明大眾捷運信討營運機構應用行車事故及異常事件訂定應變計畫按應變計畫定期實施演練並作檢討及改善地方主管機關得就大眾捷運信討營運機構所訂應變計畫之內容及定期與不定期演練其行予以查核"},{"start":18282.301,"end":18306.643,"text":"如認為辦理不善因命期限期改善大眾捷運系統營運機構因與所在營運地區之地方政府間建立災害防救工作聯繫平台並定期召開災害防救業務聯繫會議大眾捷運系統營運機構辦理第一項重大行車事故通報時並因應運輸事故調查法同時向國家運輸安全調查委員會辦理通報與重現行條文"},{"start":18307.404,"end":18328.886,"text":"委員蔡祺昌等21人提案第39條增訂第二項大眾捷運信統營運機構及相關人員另因因運輸事故調查法配合國家運輸安全調查委員會辦理調查與通現行條文委員蔡祺昌等21人提案第41條增訂第二項大眾捷運信統採用完全獨立專用路權"},{"start":18329.666,"end":18335.172,"text":"且為無人駕駛系統者大眾捷運系統營運機構應設義務入侵軌道之預警及緊急應變設備或措施"},{"start":18339.966,"end":18366.422,"text":"原第二項第一違第三項與同現行條文委員蔡啟昌等21人提案第42條增訂第二項大眾捷運系統營運機構對從業人員應與緊急應變訓練使其確切瞭解並確實執行該標準作業程序規則與同現行條文委員李昆澤等20人提案第43條第一項第二具增訂及異常事件莫具增訂及改進措施被"},{"start":18367.102,"end":18391.955,"text":"被供地方主管機關查驗增進第二項至第四項大眾捷運系統營運機構應根據前一年度之行車事故及一場事件檢討結果於每年第一季結束以前向地方主管機關提出當年度安全管理報告其報告內容應包括下列事項一大眾捷運系統營運機構營運之目標及安全理念"},{"start":18393.072,"end":18419.09,"text":"二 安全管理之組織架構及實施方式三 為確保及提升營運安全所採取或理財省之措施四 行車事故及異常事件及檢討及預防措施五 其他與營運安全有關之重要事項大眾捷運系統營運機構救行營運列車之行車運轉列車監控及維修保養之紀錄應有效保存其保存之項目期限及管理事項"},{"start":18420.325,"end":18446.893,"text":"由地方主管機關定之大眾捷運信託營運機構及相關人員另應因運輸事故調查法配合國家運輸安全調查委員會辦理調查運動線型條文委員蔡錫昌等二十一人提案第四十三條增訂第二三項大眾捷運信託營運進購舊期營運列車之行車運轉列車監控及維修保養之紀錄應有效保存前銷應保存之項目期限"},{"start":18447.393,"end":18469.906,"text":"及管理事項由中央主管機關定之與同線性條文委員李坤澤等二十人提案新增第四十三條之一主管機關因就大眾捷運系統運轉中發生之行車事故及異常事件進行檢討非屬運輸事故調查法認定重大運輸事故之行車事故及異常事件地方主管機關任有必要時"},{"start":18470.97,"end":18483.902,"text":"病人有病要者得就其事實及原因進行調查主管機關對前兩項檢討或調查結果如任有因改進事項者因明大眾捷運系統營運機構限期改善並列管追蹤"},{"start":18485.174,"end":18511.648,"text":"其事項涉及違反本法規定者依法裁處其違反大眾捷運系統營運機構內部規定者得命大眾捷運系統營運機構對內部相關人員就責懲處或請他必要處置大眾捷運系統營運機構及其從業人員應配合地方主管機關檢討或調查需要提出說明相關記錄設施設備資料或物品不得規避妨礙或拒絕"},{"start":18512.668,"end":18540.229,"text":"委員蔡其昌等21人提案第45條之三施工管理後增訂捷運沿線施工安全作業標準與同現行條文委員蔡其昌等21人提案第51條修正第一項第7款違反第41條第一項及第三項規定或唯一第42條規定對行車人員或作業人員施以訓練或管理致發生行車事故者與同現行條文"},{"start":18541.997,"end":18567.208,"text":"委員蔡啟昌等所提修正動議第39條第一項中段修訂欲有重大行車事故應立即通報莫具增訂其屬一般行車事故及異常事件應因按院匯報增訂第二項之第六項大眾捷運系統營運機構應前項規定所提報告內容地方主管機關得要求其負責人或相關主管說明"},{"start":18568.288,"end":18593.741,"text":"大眾捷運信統營運機構因舊行車事故及異常事件訂定應變計劃及應變計劃定期實施演練並檢討改善大眾捷運信統營運機構所訂應變計劃之內容與定期及不定期演練情形地方主管機關得與查核認為管理不善因命期限期改善大眾捷運信統營運機構因與所在營運地區之地方政府間建立災害防救工作聯席平台"},{"start":18594.201,"end":18617.536,"text":"定期召开灾害防救业务联系会议大众捷运系统营运机构办理第一项中大行车事故通报时并因应运输事故调查法项国家运输安全调查委员会通报于同委员在其中等21人提案第43条大众捷运系统营运机构对行车事故及异常事件因搜集资料调查研究分析原因"},{"start":18620.227,"end":18641.278,"text":"並採取預防及改進措施地方主管機關得予查驗大眾捷運系統營運機構應根據前一年度之行車事故及異常事件檢討結果於每年第一季結束前向地方主管機關提出當年度安全管理報告其報告內容應包括下列事項一大眾捷運系統營運機構營運之安全理念及目標"},{"start":18641.926,"end":18667.946,"text":"安全二 安全管理之組織架構及實施方式三 為確保及提升營運安全所採取或擬採取之措施四 行車事故或異常事件之檢討及預防措施五 其他與營運安全有關之重要事項大眾捷運系統營運機構就其營運列車之行車運轉列車監控及維修保養之紀錄應預保存其保存之項目期限及管理事項由中央主管定之"},{"start":18669.315,"end":18692.35,"text":"大眾監獄信統營運機構及相關人員另一運輸事故調查法配合國家運輸安全調查委員會辦理調查新增第43條之一 第二項手續認定修正為所定第三項 第二具如任為如任為修正為任有 如任有修正為任有 餘同委員李昆澤等20人提案"},{"start":18694.502,"end":18719.601,"text":"第45條之三 安全作業標準修正為安全管制與同委員蔡啟昌等21人提案第51條增訂第一項第二款中斷第39條第4項或第43條之一第三項規定修正第一項第三款違反第35條第一項或第39條第一項規定應報告而未報告修正第一項第7款中斷從業人員"},{"start":18720.982,"end":18750.08,"text":"修正第一項第八款違反第43條第一項第二項或第三項規定經主管機關通知改正或未改正修正第一項第九款大眾捷運系統營運機構及其從業人員規避妨礙或拒絕第43條之一第四項鎖定應配合業務原條文第八款第九款第一為第十款第十一款第二項手續修正有前項各款行刑至依今中段修正案次處罰於同委員蔡啟昌等21人提案"},{"start":18751.806,"end":18778.685,"text":"委員盧憲義等18人擬拒鐵路法第26條及第35條條文修正草案 委員陳俊宇等24人擬拒鐵路法第40條條文修正草案 臺灣民眾黨黨團擬拒鐵路法第56條至4 67條至3及68條至4條文修正草案 委員李昆澤等25人擬拒鐵路法第56條至5條文修正草案委員廖憲祥等18人 委員廖憲祥等25人分別擬拒鐵路法第57條條文修正草案"},{"start":18779.125,"end":18796.128,"text":"委員張宏祿等18人擬拒鐵路法第65條條文修正草案委員洪孟凱等19人擬拒鐵路法第68條之4及第72條條文修正草案委員邱振軍等23人擬拒鐵路法增訂第68條之4條文修正草案及洪孟委員洪孟凱委員張宏祿等所提修正動議"},{"start":18797.847,"end":18816.481,"text":"委員盧先一等18人你提案第26條增進第4項旅客為年滿55歲之原住民者應享有優待車票與同線型條文委員盧先一等18人提案第35條增進第2項旅客為年滿55歲之原住民者應享有優待車票與同線型條文"},{"start":18817.242,"end":18834.115,"text":"委員陳俊穎等二十四人提案第四十條第一項中段修正為隨時將經過請行報請查核並啟動旅客接駁應變計畫與同線型條文台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五十六條之四第一項前段增訂應採取必要措施確保從業人員執行鐵路業務實質安全並與同線型條文"},{"start":18837.418,"end":18857.29,"text":"委員李昆澤等25人提案第56條之五第二項手續增訂建置營運安全管理系統並增訂第五款營運安全管理系統作業規範由交通部定制與同線型調溫委員廖憲祥等25人提案第57條增訂第二項行人車輛不得侵入鐵路路線及場站區內"},{"start":18859.588,"end":18873.945,"text":"非公共通行之處所 但鐵路機構為民眾通行數散人潮 發展觀光緊急救難或其他特殊需求 另行公告開放之範圍不再實現 增訂第五項 第二項單數規定之另行公告開放範圍 鐵路機關應與"},{"start":18876.227,"end":18899.437,"text":"公告前檢軍開放原因開放範圍開放時段及相關配套管理措施報經交通部從議後 使得為之變更是一統與同現行條文委員廖先生等十八人提案第五十七條修正第三項第四項鐵路路線橋樑為當地居民通行之必經通路且無公有道路替代者不受前項限制由主管機關另訂辦法因鐵路路線"},{"start":18900.597,"end":18923.919,"text":"設置導致計程道路無法通行主管機關因滿足跨越鐵路路線制救災通行需求原第三項第四項第五以為第五項第六項與同線性條文委員張宏錄等十八人提案第六十五條第一項中斷修正為十倍至五十倍增訂第三項至第五項主管機關未調查或取締前兩項違規事項得洽請警察機關派員協助主管機關對於"},{"start":18926.656,"end":18945.881,"text":"檢舉查獲第一項第二項規定之行為處應對檢舉人身份資料嚴守祕密外並得卓於獎勵對於檢舉人身份資料之保密與訴訟程序一同前項主管機關受理檢舉案件之管轄處理期間保密檢舉人獎勵及其他應遵循事項之辦法由中央主管機關定制與同線性條文"},{"start":18946.821,"end":18972.477,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案新增第67条之三民营或国营铁路机构违反第56条之4第一项或第64条准用第56条之4第一项规定未采取必要措施确保从业人员执行铁路业务实质安全或为有效训练及管理从业人员时期具备铁路专业作业安全维安应变及卫生防疫辅助技能并确切了解及严格遵守铁路法令者"},{"start":18973.097,"end":19001.97,"text":"處新台幣三萬元以上三十萬元以下之罰還有前項行刑者應命期限其改善屆期未改善者案次連續處罰台灣民眾黨黨團提案新增第六十八條之四以強暴脅迫恐嚇或其他非法治方法妨礙鐵路從業人員執行鐵路業務處三年以下有期徒刑的並可新台幣三十萬元以下罰金犯前項之罪因而致鐵路從業人員與死者處無期徒刑或七年以上有期徒刑至重傷則處三年以上"},{"start":19002.69,"end":19031.63,"text":"10年以下有歧途刑委员侯孟凯等19人提案新增第68条之4以强暴、胁迫、恐吓或其他非法之方法妨碍铁路从业人员执行职务者处1年以上5年以下有歧途刑的并科新台币1000万元以下罚金犯前项之罪因而致铁路从业人员于死者处无歧途刑或7年以上有歧途刑致重伤者处5年以上10年以下有歧途刑有前项情形者铁路从业人员的拒绝运送"},{"start":19032.51,"end":19055.761,"text":"委員邱正軍等23人提案新增第68條之4以強暴脅迫恐嚇或其他非法之方法妨礙鐵路從業人員執行職務者處6個月以上3年以下有企圖行得併科新台幣50萬元以下罰金犯潛向之罪傷害鐵路人員之身體或健康者處1年以上5年以下有企圖行拘役或100萬元以下罰金因而致人於死者處"},{"start":19056.761,"end":19063.889,"text":"無期徒刑或七年以上有期徒刑至重傷者除五年以上有期徒刑犯第一項之罪者鐵路從業人員得拒絕運送"},{"start":19065.731,"end":19093.948,"text":"委員侯孟楷等19人提案第72條增訂第一項後段現行犯者有警察機關排除或制止之如涉及刑事責任則應移送司法機關偵辦與同現行條文委員侯孟楷等所提修正動議第新增第68條之四第一項中段修正或因而傷害鐵路從業人員之身體或健康者處6個月以上5年以下有期徒行得並科新台幣3萬元以上30萬元以下罰金"},{"start":19094.628,"end":19109.386,"text":"第三項手續修正之餘者與同委員洪孟凱等19人提案第72條週段修正警察機關或鐵路機構街道通報應急派員赴現場末段收據應以現行犯處置並移送司馬機關偵辦與同委員洪孟凱等19人提案"},{"start":19114.383,"end":19126.956,"text":"委員張宏祿等提案修正第第六十五條第一項中斷修正其運駕刪除原提案第三四五項 於同委員張宏祿等十八人提案宣讀完畢"},{"start":19132.435,"end":19145.222,"text":"好現在宣讀條文已經宣讀完畢那就就現在就各案彙整的條文對照表逐案進行協商處理首先我們處理道路交通管理處罰條例"},{"start":19166.735,"end":19190.563,"text":"好 到交条例那我们请我们各委员行政部门大家看一下那就是从31条之一开始那我先征求一下如果在场提案委员或是联署委员没有到的话这案我们可能就先保留好不好那这样可能会比较加速这个进行的一个速度那也请各党团的助理都"},{"start":19192.383,"end":19205.397,"text":"協助來告知一下我想提案委員跟連署委員我們一定要尊重那還有本委會委員我們一定尊重所以31條之1那個洛華委員您提案有沒有要先補充"},{"start":19207.349,"end":19224.621,"text":"好 謝謝昭緯 那補充說明那上一次在委員會有向交通部提出嘛那次長當時有說到那114年每個月平均的件數是5700件那我們這樣子一年看下來是68000件所以114年那我們還是推我們推測這個數量還是高於113年嘛"},{"start":19233.507,"end":19258.492,"text":"因為當時次長是有說數量有下降所以就是是否就是保留嘛但我們也要看到也要看到因為過去可以取締民眾可以檢舉所以數量非常的高現在已經民眾沒有辦法再進行檢舉了所以這個數量是下降的有鑑於這個原因那我本席還是主張我會朝這個方向去修訂好 謝謝"},{"start":19262.447,"end":19289.173,"text":"來 行政部門說明一下好不好三一條之一其實是增加罰則嘛 對不對罰緩啦 提高罰緩 是 來這邊 部裡面這邊是建議還是先維持現在的額度那透過持續的加強宣導跟執法來讓民眾慢慢去知道這樣的一個規定那當然最後是尊重委員會最後的一個審查結果"},{"start":19290.713,"end":19317.299,"text":"然後第四針對另外針對第四項的部分要會同衛福部要來訂定這個實施宣導辦法的部分我們是建議免於增訂因為這個部分是建議用附帶決議的部分來請相關主管機關來加強我們的宣導跟執法以上來衛福部是不是衛福部來說明一下"},{"start":19321.656,"end":19335.415,"text":"麦克风开一下 打开有吗好 没事 等一下麦克风我们就不要关好 谢谢"},{"start":19336.615,"end":19360.741,"text":"不好意思 有關委員所提的第五項的部分就是要會同衛福部來訂資的這個部分在這邊說明一下因為有關騎乘機車或者是行駛汽車的時候的安全管理其實是涉及交通部所以我們在這邊建議就是這個部分就是由交通部來本權者辦理"},{"start":19361.881,"end":19371.738,"text":"因為我們看到說是上面其實在第四項的部分也是由交通部去訂製所以這個部分我們建議就是由交通部來本權者來訂製 謝謝"},{"start":19375.202,"end":19401.54,"text":"好 因為現在落毫委員的版本它是手機車騎士如果說是用這個手提裝置等於是講行動電話啦那就是原本的這個罰環那提高要變2000元那還有就是主要有幾位委員的這個版本都是香煙就說現行如果說汽機車在吸食香煙行車的時候吸食香煙是處罰600元那要提高到2000元"},{"start":19402.501,"end":19418.413,"text":"那但是我記得我們交通相關法規裡面其實有1200、1800的這樣的一個罰還額度嘛那如果說不要來沒關係你找個位置坐吧還是有沒有拉個椅子衛福部拉個椅子好來"},{"start":19424.308,"end":19447.717,"text":"我們安排一下好不好好那我想如果說要一次提高到2000那有沒有可能有這個罰款的一個建議還是說這個怎麼樣來做一個match我們委員這邊有沒有其他的想法不然這樣子比較難再進一步"},{"start":19448.894,"end":19456.294,"text":"我想請市長說明這原本這罰款是600元嘛可以說明現在還有哪一些罰款也是600元嗎"},{"start":19460.051,"end":19486.829,"text":"委員 這個部分我就來做一個說明好 請說在處罰條例裡面大概最低的就是300 300 600 900然後接下來大概有1500然後900之後1200 1500 1800大概是這樣子的一個級距那單項罰款的部分大概就是有1000 3000大概這樣子的部分那如果說針對邱委員所提到的這個部分我是是不是做這樣子的建議"},{"start":19487.889,"end":19508.435,"text":"就是說因為這個現行騎機車這個手持行動裝置的部分現行是1000元那現在提高到2000因為它原來基地比較低將到2000是這個雙倍那我是比較建議如果說可考量的去的一個部分的話大概就是1200或者是1500這樣子的一個區間"},{"start":19509.835,"end":19530.955,"text":"那這個汽車這個就是說吸食香煙這些相關等等的部分的話因為如果說在不該的場所去吸煙的話是另外有一個法令的一個適用那這邊在道路上面的一個部分的話他後面有一個這個處罰的要件是自由影響他人的這一"},{"start":19531.836,"end":19550.718,"text":"這個安全那我是比較建議說這邊如果說這一個就是這一個600的話可能比較適當的部分可能是到第二個第三個級距大概是這個900那第三項就是說這個針對這個汽車駕駛人這個手持香煙吸食這些相關部分"},{"start":19551.418,"end":19577.154,"text":"這個部分相對行為是比較單純它不像這個前面就是說這個手持手機因為手機手機還有包括這個發簡訊行動這些相關的部分它行為比較 太陽比較複雜所以必須要有宣導實施辦法那針對這個手持相應的部分它大概就是一個很簡單手持相應的這個部分應該是沒有必要增訂第四項所以還要去訂一個宣導實施辦法所以終結以上的一個說明的話"},{"start":19579.236,"end":19593.451,"text":"這邊是建議就是說前面這個1000元是不是提高1200或1500可以做考量那後面那個600元的部分是不是提高到這一個900元然後第四項可以不用這個增訂以上大概做一個建議"},{"start":19596.226,"end":19620.052,"text":"好 黃建豪委員剛進來我們在討論之前因為現在這兩個樣態是現在已經有罰緩可能我們提案委員會覺得是說現在罰緩不足而造成說還是有這樣的一個違法狀況但可能 來 你們看一下因為現在就變成是說都是我們邱陸華委員跟黃建豪委員的版本只是就是罰緩的額度不同來"},{"start":19623.667,"end":19646.929,"text":"好謝謝趙偉我想針對這個抽菸的部分就是我今天上午在這個所謂提案說明的時候有提到一件事情因為這個31條之一主要規範的目標當然就是說因為你騎車開車的時候分心的狀況所以包含前面兩個兩款前面兩項是針對所謂的手機的部分那第三項的部分是針對所謂抽菸的部分"},{"start":19648.47,"end":19666.261,"text":"如果手持開車的時候拿手機跟騎車的時候拿手機會分心的話我想開車的時候抽煙跟騎車的時候抽煙同樣的它也會有分心的問題那剛剛提到說所謂的在不適當場所抽煙會有另外的法規處理這個沒問題這個我知道就是說它是指控無法或其他的"},{"start":19666.781,"end":19695.871,"text":"部分他會檢舉但我們這樣講到說是因為這個條文其實很明確是因為他手持香煙吸食點燃香煙自有影響他人行車安全的行為的時候所以才要去裁罰並不是因為他抽煙是罰他而是因為他抽煙導致他影響了這個行車安全才要罰他所以他的脈絡跟前面兩件事情是一致的就他同意他不是因為我不是抽煙罰你我是因為你抽煙的過程或是你這個分心的狀態所以我才要罰你"},{"start":19696.531,"end":19712.561,"text":"那我是覺得說前面手持手機罰到一千兩千那抽菸降到六百這件事情我覺得在數字比例上面我覺得不太一致啦所以就應該把這個罰金把他一致化那另外上午我也提到一件事情就是現在的抽菸並不是單純的"},{"start":19715.323,"end":19729.551,"text":"傳統的止煙而已現在煙有很多種包含說電子煙包含說加熱煙電子煙現在是違法違法我當然知道違法就是他們很多人在充市面上是流通的客觀事實是如此就是說他在"},{"start":19730.812,"end":19747.524,"text":"加熱煙的樣態或說這個電子煙樣態跟傳統的止煙也都不一樣那他們還是會有很多的操作的過程就是說所以我覺得這部分我們希望說在針對影響他人行傷安全的部分的罰款不能只有600元這是我的見解 以上 謝謝來 次長"},{"start":19749.665,"end":19774.715,"text":"我這樣剛聽下我是不是可以建議 剛講的第二項剛講機車用手機的部分我們建議是不是調尾1200那另外那個抽菸致影響安全的部分我們建議把它提高到1200是不是可以這樣子 那另外那個剛講宣導辦法剛講用附帶解決方式來處理就不要定定這是建議請委員是不是可以同意"},{"start":19777.714,"end":19792.44,"text":"好那這樣子就依照剛剛我們次長就是就31條之一這個黃建豪委員跟周祿豪委員的這個提案那就修正為剛剛我們次長這邊所建議的這個發還額度來修正通過"},{"start":19799.46,"end":19808.071,"text":"是來好就照剛剛的決議我只是補充一下就是我覺得法它有一個邏輯性就是"},{"start":19810,"end":19827.038,"text":"都是為了行車安全我們法令有很明確的寫可能使用行動電話或者怎樣或者抽菸類似的行為都是因為他的手沒有在方向盤上面然後再做其他行為如果不在上面的其他行為比如說我們開車就會吃零食對不對"},{"start":19830.621,"end":19848.52,"text":"其實我覺得法要有一致性的邏輯啦在未來做調整的時候應該是有一致性的邏輯而你去針對個別的樣態你的樣態會有點舉例不完會有點舉例不完那包括一樣都是行車中譬如說我們在停紅燈其實我們也是在行車中嘛我們也不可以用手機但是跟在"},{"start":19849.341,"end":19866.084,"text":"有速度的行駛的時候使用手機它其實微傾性是不一樣的所以我們在法環上面可能也會可以訂定不一樣的級距我是覺得後續在下一次因為我自己沒提版本可能下一次有在要調整道教條例的時候我覺得這部分這兩點都可以給交通部參考謝謝"},{"start":19870.204,"end":19895.84,"text":"確實啦 如果剛剛的現場委員講法如果我們駕駛我們希望是駕駛是完全都是合乎行車作業要點而不是說分心去做其他事啦所以手機跟這個香菸比較是大眾常見的可矩陣的一個樣態但是還有其他一個樣態那這個部分就請我們交通部這邊帶回去研究好不好那我們剛剛看一下剛剛的這個條文31條之一就說"},{"start":19901.588,"end":19922.541,"text":"這樣子現行法規的部分那我們現在把這個修正後的版本用紅字把給列出來那我們請在場委員這邊看一下我就說來再往上一點沒關係機車駕駛人行駛道路以手持方式行使用行動電話等等等等來那往下"},{"start":19924.571,"end":19945.911,"text":"好那就是儲新台幣1200元罰還那另外汽機車駕駛人行駛道路手持香煙吸食點燃香煙等等然後也是儲新台幣1200元罰還請教各位委員有沒有意見好如果沒有意見的話那我們就修正通過"},{"start":19948.001,"end":19968.07,"text":"那附帶決議等一下請我們行政部門把那個版本寫出來那也給在場委員做過目好不好好那再來79條徐富奎委員提案是不是只有徐富奎委員一位那徐富奎委員或是他的連署委員有沒有需要說明"},{"start":19970.711,"end":19994.696,"text":"好那沒有的話說明一下行政部門大概跟那個徐委員有溝通過他大概就同意我們的意見好那我們就參照不予修正保不予修正維持現行條文再來86條柯志恩委員等提案那其中"},{"start":19996.894,"end":20000.915,"text":"柯政委員或是那個我們連署委員有沒有意見"},{"start":20004.176,"end":20029.4,"text":"那本席特別提到啦這個學校跟醫院的一個部分那你如果說沒有減數的話其實你就應該要假設如果說而造成有相關的一個事故包括受傷死亡的部分那其實這也跟我們今年發生的這一個悲痛的一個案件那個學校三峽這邊的一個這個案件一樣所以我想"},{"start":20030.621,"end":20047.641,"text":"該經過學校醫院等標示的路段因為學校跟醫院就是年長者跟年幼者以及重傷者行動不便者會比較多所以不減速慢行的話得加重期刑二分之一那請教行政部門可以接受嗎"},{"start":20050.049,"end":20065.292,"text":"好那這樣的話我們就照柯政委員等16人的提案通過86條 照柯政委員等16人的版本通過第90條黃建豪委員在現場 所以黃委員要不要說明一下"},{"start":20068.908,"end":20078.254,"text":"好謝謝主席那我本席提的這90條其實就針對獨駕的事實狀態就是之前有提到一件事情就算獨駕是規範在第35條但是因為那個採樣的時間的熱時間差常常實務上超過兩個月所以我認為說在獨駕這個部分的"},{"start":20087.719,"end":20107.845,"text":"的這個時間表他應該是以所謂的檢驗結果出來之日才開始起算那當然中間過程裡面有些文上修正我想這個依據這兩天的溝通我想可以依照這個交通物體的這個文字因為他文字其實跟我的文字精神上是一樣只是做些調整而已所以我覺得是應該是依照"},{"start":20110.066,"end":20133.167,"text":"這個測試檢定案件的截止日之後來起算所謂的兩個月我覺得是比較合理的狀態以上說明謝謝好就是勿往勿重啦對不對來那行政部門是不是有跟委員溝通之後的再修正的版本有文字調整對這個部分有跟委員溝通而且提出我們的修正的一個文字的版本好那是不是就在電腦上面秀出來這個"},{"start":20137.496,"end":20157.671,"text":"好來那我們是不是可以請委員們來看一下電腦上面就說建議依黃建豪委員的提案再修正如下首先有下列情形其起算日或舉發期限依各款規定辦理包括依車輛駕駛人經已有"},{"start":20161.153,"end":20178.839,"text":"受委託醫療或檢驗機構對其一第35條第一項第二款第73條第二項測試檢驗者其期間自檢驗報告結果通知警察機關之日起算那35條跟73條就是這所謂的讀酒價是不是"},{"start":20183.164,"end":20210.26,"text":"獨駕OK好那所以說就跟剛剛黃建豪委員所講的那個核心精神是一樣就是說檢驗報告結果通知警察機關之日起算那再來第二汽車造勢致人受傷或死亡案件因造勢責任不明已送鑑定者其期間至檢定終結之日起算未送檢定而須分析研判者欲三個月不得舉發"},{"start":20213.103,"end":20241.934,"text":"好委員跟這個行政部門都可以接受那我們就依黃建豪委員等17人的提案文字修正後通過附帶決議有出來了嗎好那我們是不是請示大家好來我們宣讀一下附帶決議"},{"start":20243.834,"end":20259.313,"text":"附帶決議 駕駛人騎乘機車或行駛汽車時抽煙 煙霧與煙灰隨風四散長字影響後方用路人視線與呼吸 增加交通事故風險更可能衍生水手"},{"start":20260.995,"end":20277.067,"text":"丟棄菸地資環境污染及二手菸危害情形為目前執法強度並無法產生足夠之嚇阻效果原請交通部內政部警政署衛生福利部及環境部應治本權則持續加強宣導及執法令"},{"start":20280.99,"end":20286.192,"text":"好 請問委員可以接受嗎好 謝謝那這樣子我們就再進行到第二個附帶決議通過好那我們就進行大眾結運法"},{"start":20306.116,"end":20331.193,"text":"來大眾捷運法第1第11條邱若驊委員等人提案那邱委員有沒有要補充好其實非常好就是環境永續跟淨零減碳的目標把它放進來了這也是我們2050淨零碳排的一個方向那尤其大眾運輸大眾捷運系統都應該要做考慮那行政部門是不是可以接受"},{"start":20331.904,"end":20339.637,"text":"八位我們接受 按照委員提案通過那就依照邱若驊委員等提案通過在第39條"},{"start":20343.337,"end":20370.933,"text":"來 我們現場委員有李昆哲委員 請發言好 第39條 現行的第39條僅僅是概述這種事故的通報原則那其實它並不能反映不同的捷運系統在相關的設計 入網的特性還有風險的形態上面的差異那這一次修法主要是要增進授權"},{"start":20371.974,"end":20399.927,"text":"使地方主管機關依照他們轄管的這個系統的運作風險要求營運機構制定而且要定期檢討行車事故以及異常事件的應變計畫使應變計畫能被被動的反應轉為主動的一個準備來補強目前事前準備不足的制度缺口以上"},{"start":20402.366,"end":20415.894,"text":"好還有沒有加委員有意見好那我們看到蔡其昌委員等人有一個修正動議那我們也一併併入來討論那我們請行政部門這邊來回覆"},{"start":20417.879,"end":20443.064,"text":"包委員我想這條的修正草案包括崑哲委員跟蔡吉章委員的草案我們都原則表示支持但是有關李崑哲委員的部分我們在各項有做一些文字的調整蔡吉章委員今天早上所送出來的臨時的修正動議文字上我們原則上都接受其中有關有一項就是中央跟地方的這個"},{"start":20447.951,"end":20472.425,"text":"對不起那是43條39條沒有意見好那39條我這邊看到的是我們現在行政部門是不是有建議的一個文字好那昆哲委員是不是看一下因為核心精神有那個交通部有來跟我做相關的對話因為在上午接受他們的文字修正"},{"start":20472.932,"end":20494.265,"text":"好那這樣子39條是不是才是要以李昆哲委員跟蔡啟昌委員兩委員的版本修正後通過好那那個文字的部分有需要現在秀在那個我們的這個螢幕上有需要念一遍嗎"},{"start":20496.545,"end":20501.474,"text":"好那這樣子大家請大家過目好不好因為這個可能已經都跟我們提案委員這邊已經都說明過已經有達成共識嘛"},{"start":20522.966,"end":20531.18,"text":"那就39條就按李昆哲委員以及蔡吉昌委員的提案那修正後通過"},{"start":20534.42,"end":20555.07,"text":"好第41條41條蔡啟昌委員有修正的版本嗎包委員沒有沒有好那我們行政部門的意見如何沒有意見是可以接受是不是按委員提案版本建議通過好那我們在場委員有沒有其他意見"},{"start":20556.371,"end":20566.096,"text":"好 那如果沒有的話那就是按蔡其昌委員這邊的這個提案來通過好 42條"},{"start":20568.792,"end":20597.046,"text":"一樣是蔡其昌委員這邊來請教行政部門有沒有相關意見報委沒有意見建議按照委員提案版本通過好就大眾運輸大眾捷運系統營運要給從業人員緊急應變訓練那並且確實了解標準作業流程我想這非常重要把文字給放入讓這個大眾運輸法大眾捷運法更加嚴謹完整那我們這個42條就依蔡其昌委員等人提案通過"},{"start":20603.177,"end":20615.728,"text":"43條有李昆哲委員來請好 謝謝昭偉第43條主要是事故調查還有後續的改善其實就是安全管理的一個核心但是現行的第43條的規範過於概括"},{"start":20618.951,"end":20635.776,"text":"不足以確保營運機構落實檢討跟改善所以我這一次是修正加原條文調整到第一下並且要甄列營運機構必須提交年度安全管理報告保存運轉及保養紀錄等義務"},{"start":20637.657,"end":20659.234,"text":"使安全管理具有可集合與透明性同時也要明確要求營運機構及其人員配合國家運輸安全委員會的調查然後以及運輸事故調查法的整合確保重大事故的一個完整性跟他的獨立性以上"},{"start":20660.856,"end":20688.167,"text":"好 來 我們請教行政部門這邊的建議包委員 原則支持但是有關我們困澤委員的版本我們建議略做文字的修正那蔡吉章委員的版本因為早上提出來的臨時動議跟布版的文字是一致的那其中有關第三項就是這個紀錄英語保存的部分其保存的項目期限管理事項交通部的建議版本是由地方主管機關訂製"},{"start":20689.769,"end":20694.71,"text":"委員的版本是由中央主管機關訂製我想我們尊重委員會的審查結果"},{"start":20697.307,"end":20722.956,"text":"所以你现在我看到我们部这边的修正建议意见是由地方主管机关定制是的第三项那但是你说测试舱委员的版本是要中央主管定制好那我们委员这边有没有相关的意见我看还是要由中央来定制好不好有没有问题"},{"start":20724.421,"end":20739.617,"text":"因為這是一個法制作業因為基本上每一個地方的捷運系統目前的直接的監理權責是在地方政府中央當然就法規的部分如果這樣定起來的話就每一個地方如果有他的差異性的話就我們來處理"},{"start":20741.338,"end":20758.266,"text":"會相對來講比較複雜一點所以召委剛才就請你表示意見然後你們又說不管是委員的提案中央或地方你們都遵照委員會的一個決議然後我就故意點你一下你看你現在又講說這個我們尊重我們尊重委員會的決議"},{"start":20760.027,"end":20779.714,"text":"這一個大眾捷運系統營運機構對列車行車運轉監控保養維修其實各地方現在的捷運都是是不是捷運公司他有公司有捷運局嗎但是營運的是捷運公司交通局對不對"},{"start":20782.014,"end":20807.263,"text":"對 所以說如果說你地方政府定制的話其實也是交通局定對 但是現在我們各縣市的捷運其實有捷運 有輕軌等等也都適用這個大眾捷運法嘛對 所以這樣的話本席還是建議是先由中央主管機關定制那地方政府當然如果說出來有它有因地制宜還是有什麼特殊的部分它可能它可以再做一些附加的一些狀況"},{"start":20808.783,"end":20822.049,"text":"但是overall的部分是不是中央主管機關定制來確保我們全台的大眾捷運系統有一個妥善的一個標準好不好大家有沒有意見"},{"start":20825.97,"end":20854.985,"text":"好那這樣子我們就第43條就依照部的這一個在所提出來的文字那其中在這個第三項裡面就說大眾捷運系統營運機構就其營運列車之行車運轉列車監控及維修保養之紀錄應與保存其保存之項目期限及管理事項由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":20856.906,"end":20880.397,"text":"那其餘文字就依照交通部今天所提出來的一個文字做修正好43條如果沒有意見的話那就依照我們李昆哲跟蔡其昌委員的版本那修正文字修正後通過在43條之一"},{"start":20883.022,"end":20910.874,"text":"來 李昆哲委員好 謝謝趙偉43條之一主要是我認為現行的法律對於一般的行車事故與異常事件其實都是缺乏明確的調查還有監理的機制所以造成地方主管機關在面對非重大事故時執法的工具不足這一次新增第43條之一明定地方主管機關"},{"start":20912.014,"end":20926.819,"text":"得救非屬運輸事故調查法所成重大事故之事件進行檢討與調查並且依照結果要求營運機構限期改善依法裁處或救者處置營運機構及其從業人員應該要配合調查"},{"start":20930.68,"end":20955.326,"text":"那這個徵修我認為是讓地方的監理不再停留在於形式性的一個檢查而是能夠真正落實風險導向的一個監理這是修法的主要目的好 來自深條之一 請行政部門員表示意見我們感謝委員提案 這個我們表示支持那兩個地方略做文字的修正"},{"start":20960.427,"end":20976.976,"text":"你们是删除是不是删除文字还是怎么样没有 是将这个本来有个地方是认定改为锁定然后如有认 认为认有应该是在第二项的部分"},{"start":20987.538,"end":21012.171,"text":"來因為你在這個提供的書面資料沒有畫修改的地方沒有畫底線所以我們再確認一下我也請我們在場委員一起確認一下對 第八頁那我們現在討論的都是左手邊的第一欄那交通部的這個文字在第九行嗎"},{"start":21036.397,"end":21049.851,"text":"好來各位委員看這樣子可以接受嗎可以按照交通部的修訂文字好那如果說其他委員沒有其他意見的話那我們43條之一"},{"start":21056.545,"end":21084.495,"text":"是李昆哲委員的版本那我們就依照李昆哲委員的是不是蔡啟昌委員他的修正動議好那這樣子43條之一就依照李昆哲委員跟蔡啟昌委員修正動議共同在修正後通過好45條之三來那請鐵道局說明一下好"},{"start":21085.469,"end":21111.77,"text":"這條我們表示支持 但是其中有關捷運沿線施工安全作業標準的文字我們建議修正為捷運沿線施工安全管制一樣就是捷運沿線施工的安全的部分來在場委員如果沒有意見的話那我們就依蔡吉昌委員所提修正動議通過"},{"start":21114.895,"end":21130.885,"text":"好 第51條51條來 那行政部門就直接先說明一下"},{"start":21132.413,"end":21159.685,"text":"第51條我們也是表示支持那早上蔡吉山委員有一個修正動議版本修正的小文因為會連動到剛剛其他的修正條文所以修正的這個款次相對比較多那我們建議就按照蔡吉山委員的修正動議來予以通過好 我們這場委員有沒有相關建議好 如果沒有的話那我們就依照蔡吉山委員等人的修正動議通過"},{"start":21162.389,"end":21190.965,"text":"感覺蔡委員應該下次要請我們交通委員會吃個飯開玩笑好來再來我們第三個部分鐵路法我們請大家再看一下鐵路法那針對鐵路法部分我們現在進行逐條審查首先第26條我們盧縣議委員或是連署委員有沒有要說明補充說明"},{"start":21193.547,"end":21205.369,"text":"好如果沒有的話因為連署委員或提案委員人不在那我們先暫時不予處理好那再來第35條"},{"start":21241.362,"end":21246.447,"text":"我們等一下可以是26條35條留在委員會 其餘今天"},{"start":21263.183,"end":21281.61,"text":"好來鐵道局局長說明一下跟盧委員溝通的部分好不好那個第26條有跟盧委員做過報告那委員也表示了解就是本案的這個有關優待票的法源應該是要回到老人福利法或者是身心障礙的權益保障法來提供優待跟差額的相關補貼好"},{"start":21284.537,"end":21312.766,"text":"那這樣已經溝通過那我們26條就不予修正維持現行條文那再來第35條也是盧縣議委員的版本相同的情況是的好那我們一樣不予修正維持現行條文第40條來陳俊宇委員有沒有提案委員或是臉書委員要說明如果沒有的話我們請行政部門這邊來說明一下好包包委員會建議按照委員提案通過"},{"start":21316.598,"end":21334.177,"text":"好 就是啟動旅客如果說有這個狀況的話啟動旅客接駁應變計畫是不是那這個接駁應變計畫平時的時候就已經有先擬定那要由鐵道局其實現在就有現在就有各個鐵路機關所以主管機關是鐵道局嘛對不對是的好"},{"start":21335.678,"end":21350.596,"text":"好那就依照陳俊委員提案通過第四十條依照陳俊委員提案通過第五十六條之四台灣民眾黨提案主席是請說"},{"start":21354.59,"end":21375.997,"text":"是 56條之四可以發言嗎是 請說我想56條之四還有67條之三 68條之四都大概是相同的事情就是大家關心到我們鐵路員工遭受暴力對待的案發的這個案例現在情況越來越多 越來越嚴重了"},{"start":21377.597,"end":21403.657,"text":"台鐵的員工受暴事件在2022年只有兩件我看你們今年的報告到現在已經有13件而且不是特定車站在很多營業處都有所以本席也支持透過立法要強化保障我們的台鐵員工對施暴的行為過去沒有的現在應該要明定一個法則讓我們台鐵的站務人員還有列車長"},{"start":21404.838,"end":21433.498,"text":"不要成為無端的受氣對象但是我看一下我們台鐵目前的安全配置確實有需要加強目前全台灣台鐵只有在台北站 高雄站還有屏東的兩個站龜來和林落設有保全人員我意思是說我們不能只依靠鐵路警察根本沒有辦法保護我們不夠人力來保護我們的台鐵的同仁"},{"start":21434.705,"end":21453.532,"text":"你看那個就算有設有保全台北 高雄才各三個屏東兩個站 各一個人在中部 東區的營業處完全沒有現在台鐵已經列為國家關鍵的基礎設施了如果我們員工受暴事件頻繁發生這個實在也是一個"},{"start":21454.392,"end":21472.177,"text":"也是個很矛盾的很笑話我們不能只依靠鐵路警察所以我是覺得台鐵應該要依照我們車站的規模還有人流的數量進行整體安全評估尤其在一些特等站像直轄市的台北台中高雄台南或者像花蓮觀光客多的"},{"start":21473.097,"end":21492.373,"text":"應該要增聘保全的人力未來再逐漸擴大到人潮較多的車站至少在第一階段這些直轄市特等站應該要先增加增聘人力來保護台鐵的員工讓第一線的同仁減少他們職場受害的狀況以上 謝謝"},{"start":21498.299,"end":21509.617,"text":"好 謝謝來 那針對條文的部分俊憲委有需要請台鐵總經理這邊回應嗎好 那我們是不是台鐵這邊請台鐵說明一下來 麻煩"},{"start":21513.157,"end":21538.848,"text":"報委員 就有關於委員提出來第56條之四的這個條文我們是支持也會全力來配合那委員剛才提到保全的部分因為委員還有召委都多次有提到我們已經進行全面盤點那我們在一個月內會把它盤點完來全面來做提升也符合條文修訂條文的相關的規定以上"},{"start":21540.021,"end":21562.964,"text":"因為主要是還是有分這個大戰小戰那業務量其實也都不同那如果說可以我們先從六都在各縣市至少這樣子分門別類因為一定是要先做你才能夠有往改革的方向走好那56條之四是就照台灣民眾黨團提案通過"},{"start":21567.028,"end":21583.445,"text":"今天我們桌上有一個司法院的書面意見他是有提到說從業人員的定義不夠清楚經檢視我們目前的鐵路法裡面有提到兩種人員一個是鐵路從業人員一個是鐵路行車人員"},{"start":21584.826,"end":21605.527,"text":"行車人員的部分在56條之四有非常明確的這個定義跟相關的合格基準的授權由交通部來定制因為同樣我們等一下在68條之四會提到從業人員如果遭受這個相關的騷擾或攻擊的時候會有法律上對應的這樣的一個刑罰或者是罰則"},{"start":21606.548,"end":21629.944,"text":"所以我們是不是可以建議說參照司法院的書面意見將從業人員的定義在56條之四的第三項就是最後這一項現在講的是前向鐵路行車人員之定義加上前向鐵路從業人員及行車人員之定義"},{"start":21630.885,"end":21652.845,"text":"換句話說我們在後續的執法規則裡面把這個定義做一個更為明確或許在未來的執法上面這一個相關的定義會比較清楚也就是說在68條之四所受到的這個法律的處罰的課題會相對明確我想這是參照司法院的這樣的一個意見做一個臨時的這樣的一個補充"},{"start":21654.506,"end":21675.817,"text":"好來各位委員針對剛剛提案剛剛這個說明來黃建豪委員請謝謝召委那個我想要確認一下就是說因為提案委員好像沒有在這邊但是我要確認一下這個鐵路行車人員跟鐵路從業人員是不同的"},{"start":21678.557,"end":21698.486,"text":"還是鐵路從業人員本來就包含鐵路行車人員鐵路系統裡面的從業人員範圍比較大比如說售票的人或者是說這個在檢票口協助這個旅客進出的同仁但是鐵路行車人員我們現在在相關的執法規則定義非常清楚有五類的人員包括駕駛行控"},{"start":21699.326,"end":21724.452,"text":"列車長然後部分的執行車站裡面運轉的站務人員跟維修人員所以他有他一定的這個鐵路安全上面的職責但是鐵路從業人員可能有部分是屬於服務旅客的這樣的一個部分那我們現在有相當大的部分也就是從業人員會跟旅客會有直接的這樣的一個接觸所以才會有剛剛後面的這些法令的這些保護對責出來"},{"start":21725.492,"end":21745.175,"text":"好謝謝局長因為我意思是說如果鐵路從業人員的範圍比較廣因為民眾黨團的提案的前條文字裡面也是說要確保從業人員執行鐵路業務時的安全所以他前面也是用從業人員這個詞所以我說在後面所謂的所謂的鐵路行車人員的部分不缺點能不能直接幫他們改成就是鐵路從業人員"},{"start":21747.017,"end":21760.852,"text":"因為鐵路行車人員有很多的嚴格的要求包括你的駕駛你要受1000個小時的訓練等等要拿到部分的所謂的專業的證照等等這個部分會有一點不太一樣"},{"start":21761.693,"end":21779.87,"text":"好 沒關係 沒有意見 謝謝我這邊是不是做一個補充剛剛這一條的部分後面那邊大概可能要除了局長所提的行車人員 集中人員那個應該前二項加個二他是分別在第一項跟第二項所以是前兩項"},{"start":21781.9,"end":21803.42,"text":"不是只有前項第一項是指從業人員第二項是指行車人員所以那在第三項裡面講前兩項就那個前項裡面加一個2前兩項鐵路行車人員及從業人員是定義好來我們是不是一起看一下這個上面的文字"},{"start":21811.468,"end":21831.99,"text":"就前兩項鐵路從業人員及行車人員的定義所以如果說這個修法通過之後鐵道局就要在最短時間內就訂出從業人員的範圍包括說實施的方法等等這相關定義然後應實施的這一些部分對不對"},{"start":21834.133,"end":21856.571,"text":"因為其實你是說行車人員的定義以及應實施的訓練技能檢定體格精神狀態是現已經有因為現有是行車人員嘛那你現在再加上從業人員的話你們就要在最短時間內把從業人員的定義實施的訓練技能檢定體格也要一起把它給定義出來"},{"start":21857.031,"end":21884.327,"text":"但是從業人員的標準相對會低很多是 就是說依照你們去訂定嘛 對好來請教我們現場委員如果沒有意見的話那我們就依照我們這來 林俊憲委員好 謝謝那我同意啊好那我們就依照文字這邊台灣民眾黨團的版本那提案文字修正後通過"},{"start":21887.202,"end":21907.755,"text":"好再來56條之五來請李昆哲委員謝謝召委56條之五主要是要修法明訂鐵路機構應該要建置營運安全的管理系統我認為應該要交通部來訂定他的系統的範圍內容以及"},{"start":21908.715,"end":21936.354,"text":"建制的細則讓安全管理的要求得以制度化標準化那這次修法我希望是能夠確保鐵路安全管理與國際的標準來接軌來敦促相關的單位鞏固自我監督持續改善的一個能力強化公共運輸安全的韌性實現社會大家對於鐵路安全治理的一個期待以上"},{"start":21937.756,"end":21957.245,"text":"好 謝謝 請林俊憲委員也好 謝謝主席其實這個國際的鐵道業者大概都已經全面導入我們現在討論的這個叫安全管理系統就是SMS那我國因為在蒲英堡事件以後交通部運燃所也開始研究相關的計畫"},{"start":21959.366,"end":21985.254,"text":"那我們交通部其實在2022年就修正鐵路行車規則就那時候在這個鐵路行車規則2022年的修正就有明確要求這個各鐵路機構要建立自己的行車安全管理系統並且要全部應該要在2024年就是去年就要正式上路但是這個喊了那麼多年我發現台鐵最近幾年來的行車異常件數"},{"start":21986.954,"end":21992.983,"text":"仍然是很高啦2020年632件再來699件再來一直到2023年變777件去年你可以說因為有天災影響破1000破1000件"},{"start":22004.724,"end":22027.021,"text":"台鐵今年也發生很多什麼吊車意外 漏掛車廂或者列車冒進站等等上半年就有將近400件的所謂的行車異常甚至連所謂的模範生高鐵今年也發生第一次的過站不停的狀況所以我要提醒交通部因為次長在這裡"},{"start":22028.462,"end":22056.389,"text":"那這個SMS建置確實我認為應該提升到更高的位置 位階來你現在都是由比如台鐵訂自己的 高鐵訂自己的嘛那我看李君哲委員的提案 本期支持他啦那江東部是不是在這個部分應該要復齊一些就是把這個安全準則的位階再提高一下要不然有發生那麼多的行車異常這個時代是 我認為沒有改善的還可以越來越嚴重 好不好"},{"start":22058.469,"end":22081.008,"text":"好 以上 謝謝主席好 謝謝來 請行政部門說明一下報告委員感謝委員的提案這一條我們建議給予支持有兩個地方的文字略做一個小的修正主要就是營運安全管理系統我們沒有營運兩個字也就是安全管理系統最後一項配合做一些調整"},{"start":22081.908,"end":22100.025,"text":"好那如果說這個調整修正後文字沒有意見的話那我們就56條之5依照李昆澤委員等人提案修正後通過57條先強委員要不要再說明一下"},{"start":22102.83,"end":22122.472,"text":"好謝謝這個抱歉喔上面有兩個我的版本喔因為我去年有提一個然後今年有再提一個那主要這一次是要呃針對廖信翔等25人擬聚的那個條文好來做討論那其實之前也有跟鐵道局做相關的討論了啦那呃提出修法當然就是我們鐵道當然還要還在鐵路那是運輸量能比較"},{"start":22123.593,"end":22148.531,"text":"高的運輸需求為主的但是我們台鐵目前還有一些支線那其實他的運輸量比較低那他也都常常跟地方的觀光結合的黏著性也是比較高的那包括早期的這些支線他們在都市的發展的時候常常會有一些奇形怪狀的狀態產生例如去年這個山雕林要去爬瀑布那你只有鐵道可以走"},{"start":22149.131,"end":22171.411,"text":"甚至可能我記得在基隆那一邊也是有類似的一個情況就是民宅必須要經過車站範圍等等的因此在這一次的修法就是希望在非電氣化鐵路的部分予以放寬讓如果說營運單位認為可以的話我們有授權來做赤路的放寬"},{"start":22173.252,"end":22201.564,"text":"好 就是針對民眾通行疏散人潮或是發展觀光等其他特殊需求經鐵路機關另行公告範圍不再實現來 行政部門好 謝謝委員的提案這個提案我們也是表示原則支持但是建議做一個地方就是剛剛委員口頭有提到的這個鐵路非電話區間這可能要把它加上去也就是說在電話的區間其實大概要能夠公告這樣子的範圍"},{"start":22202.404,"end":22227.623,"text":"的可能性非常非常的小那也不可能但為了避免未來執行上面的一些困擾我們是不是建議就在這個法的上面把它做明確的定義所以修正的文字呢在這個但基於民眾通行這個但字的後面加上鐵路非電話區間這幾個字但鐵路非電話區間基於民眾通行等等等好"},{"start":22231.147,"end":22254.353,"text":"來我們上面再看一下非電話區間基於民眾通行疏散人潮好好那沒有問題的話57條就依廖先生委員等人提案修正後通過第65條"},{"start":22259.13,"end":22262.787,"text":"我們張宏祿委員或提案連署委員有沒有 沒有在現場"},{"start":22265.632,"end":22292.385,"text":"那這個我們就先不予處理有修正動議嗎好來行政部門說明一下好不好有沒有跟張宏魯委員溝通過這個案子有跟委員做過報告那建議是這樣就是說第一項的部分呢我們表示支持那作修文字那第三項第四項第五項建議不予修正"},{"start":22296.773,"end":22321.014,"text":"所以現在原有是5倍到30倍那要調高到10倍到50倍然後文字做調整修正好如果沒有意見的話那65條這邊就依照張宏祿委員等人所提出修正意見修正動議通過67條之3"},{"start":22329.927,"end":22344.093,"text":"來行政部門也有溝通過是不是有報告建議照委員提案通過好台灣民眾黨黨團版本那就依照台灣民眾黨黨團提案通過68條之4"},{"start":22353.636,"end":22375.72,"text":"好68條知識本席有提案那其實最主要就是針對之前我們一直看到說這個鐵道暴力那我們一直強調大宗運輸尤其是我們的台鐵也好高鐵也好其實各運輸工具在廉價期間反而是工作同仁最辛苦的時候大家在廉價工作人員在工作在執勤提供最好的服務"},{"start":22376.36,"end":22398.336,"text":"那如果說因為這個壓力大或是說因為排隊等等而造成情緒而導致我們的工作同仁被攻擊還是說像這個晚上11點多我們已經把旅客安全的送到站了但是旅客不願意醒來還在那邊擄小小那很抱歉我們就應該要給予我們台鐵從業人員最"},{"start":22400.317,"end":22417.312,"text":"大的一個保障所以如果以任何暴力威脅恐嚇非法方式來危害鐵路從業人員執行鐵路業務的話我們認為是應該要加重處罰那當然刑責的部分刑責的部分之前也比照參考議事法"},{"start":22418.012,"end":22446.548,"text":"就是這個急診式暴力我們也應該要嚇阻這樣子一個暴力的一個手段所以刑責部分我們也看一下說各委員以及這個交通部這邊有沒有相關建議的一個版本那我們現在看到部這邊有修我這邊有提一個修正動議是希望是採取處六個月以上五年以下的有期徒刑"},{"start":22448.53,"end":22462.146,"text":"並且併科新台幣3萬元以上30萬元以下罰金請教我們行政部門這邊有沒有相關的一個意見"},{"start":22464.227,"end":22487.555,"text":"包委員 我們原來的建議是這樣就是說有關處罰額度的部分第一項建議是3年以下有期徒刑的病科30萬以下罰金跟剛剛委員有提到就是可能有6個月以上3年以下這樣的一個落差第二項是因為致重傷者 刑度修正為3年以上10年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":22488.855,"end":22516.77,"text":"那第三項的部分我們建議這個加一個之餘然後鐵路機構的拒絕運送那但是並同後面的第72條我們會建議現在的第三項調整為第四項中間增加一個警察機關或鐵路機構接到通報應及派員赴現場排除或制止之如涉及刑事責任者應以"},{"start":22517.711,"end":22524.161,"text":"現行犯處置並移送司法機關偵辦好 等於這一條68條之4跟後面連帶的72條"},{"start":22531.167,"end":22549.239,"text":"也連動那你們現在是說把七十二條的這個立法精神就是警察機關或是鐵道機關接貨通報應該派員到現場排除跟制止那搬到合併到六八之市就對了好那文字是不是剛剛有念出來可以再讓大家看一下"},{"start":22551.434,"end":22578.741,"text":"就是說我們現在有72條跟68條之事那立法精神合併為立法精神都保留但合併為一條條文在68條之事所以就是說如果有發生這個鐵道暴力事件或是說在這個運行當中的暴力狀況的話那警察機關有接獲前面兩項者應該立即派員到現場排除或制止"},{"start":22579.401,"end":22602.027,"text":"那是涉嫌刑事責任者就移送司法機關偵辦所以我想這也是給我們警察機關不管是鐵道警察局或者是地方的派出所對不對只要你有獲報這樣子的一個暴力攻擊恐嚇等非法手段來妨礙鐵路從業人員執行鐵路業務那就應該要積極的處理介入對不對"},{"start":22609.451,"end":22632.186,"text":"好那文字的部分上面那我們現在回到第一項就是看一下說那個這個刑度的一個部分現在醫師法就是急診室暴力它現在是那個刑度是多少就是三年以下五年三年以下的有期徒刑"},{"start":22634.298,"end":22652.094,"text":"好那这样子我想那就尊重我们部内这边所提出来的文字修正那就是处三年以下有期徒刑并科新台币30万元以下罚金那如果说有犯这个前罪致人于死就处"},{"start":22656.759,"end":22668.877,"text":"3年 沒有 致人於死的話處無期徒刑或7年以上有期徒刑致重傷則是處3年以上10年以下有期徒刑好 請教各位委員有沒有其他建議"},{"start":22671.836,"end":22687.794,"text":"我想这是为我们所有大宗运输工具的从业人员来发声用这个态度不是要处罚人我们其实每一次这个讨论我就说你只要不犯罪不会被处罚那最重要的是嚇阻犯罪的发生以及告诉"},{"start":22688.695,"end":22709.981,"text":"任何人你要用非法的暴力強迫威脅手段妨礙鐵路從業人員執行鐵路業務的話就會有更重的刑責更重的罰還告訴你不要有這種職場暴力告訴你不要有這種騷擾服務人員的暴力行為這是保障我們的鐵路從業人員"},{"start":22712.714,"end":22729.506,"text":"那未來因為這是鐵路法但未來我覺得也請交通部這邊針對我們其他大眾運輸工具的從業人員可能也要有這樣子相關的立法精神因為現在我們只是保障了鐵路從業人員嘛那航空從業人員呢"},{"start":22731.227,"end":22750.456,"text":"航空從業人員其實跟鐵路從業人員一樣啊他也是在大眾運輸提供服務但如果說他有暴力強迫威脅等非法手段妨礙航空從業人員執行航空業務那是不是也應該要加重是航空鐵路那甚至大眾運輸還是我們的公車司機駕駛"},{"start":22752.257,"end":22765.673,"text":"這一些可能就是後續我也請這個交通部來去做一個盤點因為它可能是散落在不同部的法令但現在鐵路法是保障鐵路從業人員那我們希望的是"},{"start":22766.994,"end":22793.268,"text":"只要良善提供運輸服務者我們都要予以尊重我們也要予以保障那希望所有的乘客大家當一個開心的消費者開心的乘客那也要尊重我們從業人員大家的服務我想這是我們的一個立法精神好那我們就68條之4就以報告主席怎麼樣請說"},{"start":22804.332,"end":22831.026,"text":"好 那個修正動議我提出來的版本洪孟凱跟黃建豪還有廖先祥委員我們共同有提出來一個修正動議版本是妨礙鐵路 就第一項了妨礙鐵路從業人員執行業務或因而傷害鐵路從業人員之身體或健康者處多少以上的這個"},{"start":22832.952,"end":22855.038,"text":"那這一個可能就變成是說有一些是還有包括說是妨礙進而傷害鐵路從業人員的身體或健康者那這可能就會更細也是更含瓜各不同面向我們有沒有相關這個法務部代表"},{"start":22856.673,"end":22876.82,"text":"要不要說明一下我們這樣子的寫法會不會更加的完善報告主席其實這個提案可以看得出主席對這個鐵路沖人員的重視不過因為基本上在法定刑度上面剛剛主席有裁示是要比照我們醫療法的法定刑度之後它會變成是一個三年下學徒刑之罪"},{"start":22877.8,"end":22897.547,"text":"如果把傷害放在這邊的話會有一個結構性的問題是這個跟刑法277條的傷害罪相比它的刑責法要比較輕因為傷害罪是五年以下所以如果真的發生這種狀況的話就會變成是依交通部的版本再加上刑法的競合然後在量刑上面會做一個考量"},{"start":22898.567,"end":22924.694,"text":"好那就是如果说真的有比较重的犯刑的话那当然就要用比较重的一个罚则嘛好那这样子我们就是68条之事就依照报告召委台铁公司可不可以我们建议可以增加一个字第三项那个部分他因派员是不是可以写因疾派员"},{"start":22928.211,"end":22938.739,"text":"因即刻派源因立即的即因為這一次就是有發生類似這樣的一個情形他會派源可是68字是"},{"start":22945.256,"end":22962.606,"text":"六十八支誌总经理讲的是六十八支誌的第三项就是说刚刚新增在那个荧幕上面来我们看因为他把七十四条的立法精神立到六十八支誌所以他现在第三项就是七十四条的内容"},{"start":22963.499,"end":22988.599,"text":"那74條內容裡面就包括說應急派員赴現場排除鐵路警察局報告就是原來這個立法一直原來是參考醫療法第24條參考的用字就是警察違反第二項規定者警察機關應排除或自止之如涉及刑事責任應移送"},{"start":22989.599,"end":23004.71,"text":"因移送司法機關偵辦最主要它是因參考這個文字用語在實務上當然我們接獲到或是知道有這些狀況刑事案件狀況警察機關一定都是最快的速度派我們不會故意拖延"},{"start":23005.35,"end":23026.147,"text":"那這個應急是不是不知道他的這個要多少時間多少分鐘當然我們都是會要求我們同仁都在實務上都是最快的速度派遣那沒有到比如說他這個沒有到應該也有他在處理事件的原因這個以上補充說明報告來我們這場有沒有相關的建議"},{"start":23037.478,"end":23065.453,"text":"其实实在话讲不会说因为有没有这个急或是不急然后就代表是说他就可以拖延其实我觉得这一点倒是不会说因为我们这样没有写这个字或有写这个字他就一定因为那及时是多及时要有定义这样也会我们还是回归就是跟因为这一条我们修法当时的一个立法精神也是参照急诊室暴力而来"},{"start":23066.073,"end":23078.352,"text":"所以说也是参照这个一事法的一个部分那这样子我想还是维持刚刚交通部所提出来的文字修正的一个方向好不好好大家再看一下"},{"start":23081.573,"end":23109.603,"text":"好文字就就是把74條的立法精神74條內容然後併到68支4來第三項就是警察機關知如知還是如知有警察機關知有前兩項情形者應派員赴現場排除或制止之如涉及刑事責任者應移送司法機關偵辦"},{"start":23112.967,"end":23134.357,"text":"好 那如果没有问题的话68之4我们就依照报告主席 是是 加控是 法务部这边有一个小的法制用语的建议在第一项的第二行好 第一项第二行现在是第三行好 请说这边的妨碍其实我们一般在刑法或是行政刑法上都不会用这个用语我们会用妨害"},{"start":23135.418,"end":23149.48,"text":"防害對因為這個法治體力統一的問題一般是行政法採用這個防害兩個字很好以上參考請大院參考好那我們就依照法務部的這個專業意見那就改成防害"},{"start":23150.731,"end":23175.16,"text":"好讓我先盯著大家看不要只是唸然後沒有看到大家所以有問題請舉手讓我知道好沒有委員也都可以接受很好好那這樣68條之事我們就依照黃孟楷委員等19人的提案修正後通過"},{"start":23181.384,"end":23200.634,"text":"72就是剛剛那72條就是剛剛已經有併案處理了嘛那這樣子我們72條就不予修正維持現行條文好請教各位委員有沒有相關的意見好那有一個附帶決議是不是請同仁念一下附帶決議"},{"start":23202.631,"end":23231.58,"text":"附帶決議 建請交通部臺灣鐵路股份有限公司在確保列車運行與軌道設施設備安全無預知前提下於鐵路法 某年某月某日修正案公告實施後三個月內研議於平溪縣附使後於適當時段及部分路段有條件開放民眾通行及辦理私房天燈活動以兼顧列車運行安全及地方既有觀光與生活需求"},{"start":23232.02,"end":23238.004,"text":"提案人委員徐滬群 許志傑陳樹月 舒巧慧宣布完畢報告召委還有委員我們同意來照附帶決議來辦理好附帶決議可以依照辦理好那我們就附帶決議通過"},{"start":23273.82,"end":23288.383,"text":"好 個案與修正條文協商處理完畢後如有委員對於附帶決議補簽列入記錄並且刊登公報討論事項一至三案個案"},{"start":23289.626,"end":23303.421,"text":"條文及附帶決議均已協商完畢協商完畢 作以下宣告本日各修正草案之主條審查其協商結論免於宣讀授權議事人員整理為決議內容"},{"start":23306.872,"end":23333.576,"text":"本次會議法案部分做以下決議一道路交通管理處罰條例大眾捷運法及鐵路法等修正草案均已分別並案審查完略分別凝聚審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前均不需交由黨團協商院會討論時均由紅昭及委員孟凱做補充說明二"},{"start":23334.888,"end":23359.201,"text":"審查過程就審查結果 如需補充立法說明 請交通部盡速送交通委員會以便列於審查報告3 條次引述條文部分文字及原引條次授權主席及議事人員整理本次會議結束 感謝各位同仁以及行政長官 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現在先請這個勞動部針對這個洪峰愷等委員第7條進行說明第60頁"},{"start":2475.38,"end":2499.981,"text":"主席各位委員 以上的報告我們洪文凱的21人提案第15條也是我們劉建國16人的版本的第9條主要本條文的設計主要就是提供外送員等下這個後委司長你可能講錯條了是第60頁那也就是有關於雇傭關係的洪文凱委員版本的第7條"},{"start":2502.263,"end":2519.143,"text":"對 那民眾黨的第9條這個應該也要報告一下有關於洪孟愷等21億人委員提案的第7條許多委員有提到有關於外送人員與外送平台業者間為雇用關係者應適用勞動基金法規定這樣的一個規範"},{"start":2520.564,"end":2544.6,"text":"那確實我們也在前面的本法第一條已經明定有顧問關係的當然就適用勞基法還有特別有適用本法的一些特定的條文所以這個地方我們就建議不用再重複訂定以上說明好同意有沒有委員有意見同意好那這個這一條就不予採納接下來接下來到那個"},{"start":2552.459,"end":2571.47,"text":"劉建國委員等16人的第9條也就是洪孟楷委員的第15條台灣民眾黨的第7條以及王玉銘委員的第7條這條是然後還有王玉銘委員的修正動議這條是哪一個"},{"start":2584.59,"end":2611.898,"text":"那主席我可以講一下我的修正動議好請說有關於這一條的修正我的修正動議裡面特別提出來就是外送平台業者不得因外送員提出本法之申訴或協助他人申訴而對其不利的決定那這個主要是要保障我們外送員的申訴權不應該因為他有提出申訴而做出不利他的這個決定"},{"start":2613.24,"end":2628.468,"text":"那也請大家支持這一個我覺得應該要列入這個條文裡面以上說明謝謝好那是不是要請那個勞動部說明一下然後我們再請范雲委員發言好不好"},{"start":2631.391,"end":2645.368,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝委員的提案那我簡單來說明一下本條的立法的主要大致內容就是我們前面也提到外送員對於申訴是非常在意的所以我們特別在本條訂定了一些規範要求外送平台業者"},{"start":2646.189,"end":2663.667,"text":"應該要建立一些申訴制度那主要處理有幾大項一個就是有關於報酬的部分第二有關於停權跟終止服務期或其他對外送人不利的決定的部分第三個就是外送人跟商家或消費者就服務所發生的爭議的部分都可以在這個申訴制度去處理"},{"start":2664.768,"end":2676.353,"text":"然後我們還特別要明訂整個申訴制度要包含受理單位處理流程處理時間回覆方式還有申訴成立後的最重要他有個補償措施的內容而且外送平台應該公開給他揭露"},{"start":2677.386,"end":2705.636,"text":"那特別我們針對有關於終止服務外送企業因為這個情節非常重大對外送員的工作群有影響很大所以我們在本法特別有明定外送平台應該成立一個獨立的處理小組來受理外送員的申訴那我們原來的條文的設計是獨立的小組成員是三人其中工會代表至少一人那簽款工會代表以外的小組成員應該具備勞動法令專業或熟悉外送平台產業實務運作之外部專家學者擔任"},{"start":2707.157,"end":2727.68,"text":"特別還有一點就是他跟外送平台業者不能有利害關係經過我們這一段時間的聽取外界的意見以後我們建議有個修正條文還有今天那個王一鳴委員有提案我們重整各位的意見以後我們有個修正動議我們在上面我簡單跟各位說明一下"},{"start":2728.991,"end":2746.221,"text":"因為我們在這樣的一個申訴小組裡面有工會代表那事實上了解整個平台的運作其實除了需要的之外其實萬眾平台業者也應該理解所以也為了保持一個讓這樣的一個審視有更好的更明確的了解"},{"start":2746.901,"end":2771.667,"text":"所以我們這裡特別修正一下就是其中工會及外送平台業者代表至少各一人就是讓工會跟外送平台業者都可以在裡面把事實真相把它釐清那特別因為這樣的原因第二款我們就做文字上的修正就是當然這個外送平台業者以外的就應該不能有利害關係"},{"start":2773.227,"end":2794.184,"text":"最後一項就是王玉敏委員所提到的我們也覺得這個應該對外送員的保護保障也應該可以有比較好的一個設計但是我們文字可不可以委員那邊我們可以做一點文字的修正就是外送平台業者不得因外送員提出本法之申訴最主要是本法的申訴"},{"start":2795.184,"end":2806.853,"text":"然後呢或協助他人申訴而對其為不利的決定那我們一本法都是不利的就決定所以我們就簡文字可不可以做一點微調以上說明這個請范雲委員發言然後再請陳昭芝委員"},{"start":2819.49,"end":2845.203,"text":"這個劉建國委員這個第九條主要就是關於就是如果有一般來講不是勞資爭議可是這邊就是跟外送員平台相關的重要爭議譬如說薪資的部分然後停止他的工作的部分成立委員會那我的版本是寫申訴委員會那我想最後用獨立委員會或者是處理小組或是我們民進黨團的處理小組我都可以接受"},{"start":2845.743,"end":2875.246,"text":"那另外我在關於這個申訴委員會我有四個重點一個就是關於就是非公會代表部分要有勞動法令專業或者是熟悉相關運作的外部專家另外一個就是成員必須要像我們目前所有的委員會的單一性別不得少於三分之一那然後相關的剛剛講的熟悉勞動等那些專業不得少於二分之一"},{"start":2875.726,"end":2903.937,"text":"那還有關於委員會的組成運作申訴救濟程序等由中央主管機關另訂之因為我覺得救濟程序還是還是蠻重要的那最後一個就是外送平臺不得因外送員提出申訴或協助他人申訴而對其作出任何不利之處分那剛剛因為我看到勞動部的版本已經有把那個不利處分放進去了王玉敏委員也有提案"},{"start":2904.637,"end":2924.947,"text":"那關於專家的部分勞動部這個版本中也有寫喔但我想請教就是單一性別這個部分能不能夠納入在這個人數不能低於三人其中工會及外送平台業者代表至少各一人的後面加一句說單一性別不得少於三分之一"},{"start":2925.787,"end":2951.712,"text":"另外就是關於申訴的程序如果勞動部不支持的話那用什麼方式可以處理因為通常這種委員會一定都會有申訴程序一定都會有一個需要救濟不滿的部分那這個部分怎麼處理因為他也沒有辦法直接去勞工局因為他不是勞基法以上"},{"start":2953.675,"end":2974.447,"text":"是要等陳昭志委員發言完 我們司長一併回應好不好好 謝謝主席因為今天是勞動部的版本是又增加了這個就是underline的這個幾個部分那我想請教說因為這一個第9條他會涉及最嚴重最後是一個終止外送員的這個服務契約"},{"start":2975.447,"end":3001.153,"text":"那這個人數不低於三人下那不低於三也是可以就是三人就成立那請問公會及外送平台業者至少代表各一人這個今天是特別加入這個外送平台業者代表剛剛有提到說是讓他們理解啦這個說法是可以我也可以理解但請問公會及外送平台業者代表以外的小組成員那這個外送平台業者進來因為你有可能是"},{"start":3001.893,"end":3022.159,"text":"不得第一層有五個人如果外送平台業者是兩個人或更多這個情況之下這個獨立性跟中立性或是對外送員的保護是足夠的嗎因為這是你額外增加的你額外增加一定有你的額外考量就是請一併回答謝謝我先回答"},{"start":3027.441,"end":3056.242,"text":"那個剛剛趙志偉人講這個我也覺得可以調一下我們的想法其實是因為之前這裡面要工會的代表因為他比較能夠反映外送員他的處境跟情境那的確裡面也我們認為如果一個橫屏的話有工會的代表也應該有平台業者代表所以我要不要直接改成說其中工會及外送平台代表"},{"start":3056.741,"end":3077.939,"text":"各一人就好了就是把至少各一人 因為剛剛趙指委員的意思是說有可能公會代表一人結果平台業者三人那這樣就看起來就不是很橫貧那還是我們直接把它調成公會及外送平台業者代表各一人"},{"start":3079.161,"end":3091.886,"text":"那就至少就是一對一其實人數是一樣的那都是有在裡面這樣子我們覺得可以這樣來修改這樣子接受部長這樣的安排好謝謝"},{"start":3093.345,"end":3121.978,"text":"那請羅廷輝委員發言我覺得說是改成至少不要至少啦代表各藝人這樣子就可以接受那另外昨天那個縣議委員有提到就是這個部分如果個案的話是在申訴的過程他具備著原住民的身份是不是在那一次的一個申訴的一個機制產生以後應該要有一個所謂的原住民代表這部分不知道"},{"start":3124.32,"end":3126.41,"text":"勞動部的態度是什麼 可不可以說一下"},{"start":3127.298,"end":3154.204,"text":"好 那請司長統一說明是 主席 各位委員有關於在那個委員會裡面是不是有關於性別跟可能是原住民身分那因為我們對於這個申訴委員會主要就是要探親 釐清那個事實最主要就是他們跟消費者之間很多的爭執跟爭議因為是有關於種植契約通常都是非常重大那這些行為的判斷跟釐清要涉及到一個獨立客觀的一個認定"},{"start":3154.984,"end":3180.892,"text":"那對我們來講我們認為性別也好或者是他的原住民身分或者乃至於有可能新住民的身分等等我們認為在裡面應該的因素應該不會很大所以我們想要當然單純化也避免延伸其他的不必要的困難所以可不可以這個地方能不能不要訂定另外剛剛范委員有提到是說那個申訴制度是不是要中央主管就要去訂"},{"start":3181.892,"end":3207.043,"text":"那這個地方我要跟各位報告我們現在對於受僱的勞資雙方我們都沒有在任何的法律局強制規定公司一定要有一套非常設計非常一致性的申訴制度跟處理的模式因為每一家企業大大小小不太一樣然後他們對於內部員工的申訴疏遠然後有乃至於懲戒的獎懲等等有各有不同的設計的方式跟邏輯"},{"start":3208.203,"end":3227.285,"text":"那我們對於受雇的狀況之下我們都不太有這樣一個明文的規範那這次外送員是因為很特殊我們有創了一個比較特殊的一個設計那我們讓平台要負擔這麼大的一個有關於終止契約上的一個處理的模式"},{"start":3228.005,"end":3245.024,"text":"那我們就讓他們由雙方去用這個模式自主去處理我們就不認為我們還要需要介入他的申訴處理的相關的內容怎麼處理的方法那以上簡單的報告好 請陳昭之委員發言再請范雲委員"},{"start":3246.734,"end":3267.127,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛就是市長的說明我理解但是目前的外送平台他的申訴都是所謂的罐頭式的回覆制式的這個回覆所以他沒有一個實質的這個解決的一個成效那你剛剛也提到一些小企業等等但是那我想請教這個勞動部你們怎麼對於就是說"},{"start":3268.24,"end":3291.206,"text":"由平台他自己來定定然後他又是制式的回答那這個過去我們已經看到弊病或是有不足之處那現在我本來我也是我們本黨也是主張要由中央機關第一個一個指引或是一個原則然後由他們去執行就我們覺得這樣是會比較公正而且過去已經看到他的這個不足之處了"},{"start":3294.386,"end":3321.093,"text":"那是不是我也請范雲委員講完和羅天惠委員講完再一併回覆我想那個政府的所有的委員會單一性別三分之一幾乎都已經在那個落實當中那目前很多的法條也都會寫入所以我想因為性別的原住民這個也非常的重要那我也支持但是就是說就入法的部分其實性別的部分入法的比例還蠻高的"},{"start":3322.293,"end":3348.583,"text":"那就是勞動部要不要再考慮一下那另外關於那個申訴的部分就是如果不寫在這裡的話那勞動部是不是可以讓我們知道萬一那個外送員的他到這個委員會當中然後覺得非常的不公平或者是程序上那他是去地方勞工局處理嗎因為又是有勞僱關係的他是不是勞工的這個爭議"},{"start":3350.423,"end":3363.215,"text":"因為就如果不能那樣處理的話那勞動部還是要給我們一個解方譬如說附帶決議你們要怎麼處理或是未來的執法你要處理這樣子我們才能覺得就是不放在這裡是合理的以上好那請羅廷惠委員發言"},{"start":3368.337,"end":3394.569,"text":"我覺得我可以認同就是范雲委員所提到的就是這個性別平權的一個部分我也非常認同我覺得女性有自己的一個很重要的一個關鍵同理心那可能剛好遇到這樣子的一個女性的狀況所發生的一個外送員可能用女性的一個評審委員那他比較能夠有同理心的去審議這個狀況的案件那其實"},{"start":3398.294,"end":3427.143,"text":"我不是原住民那我都能夠感覺到原住民可能也有自己的文化或者是一些狀況我覺得所以在特定的一個原住民的身份如果有這個原住民的代表或許對於這個狀況上可以多加的同理心來做一個分析所以我覺得性別的平權跟這個原住民的代表是有必要性的那另外我想請問就是說我比較"},{"start":3428.458,"end":3456.097,"text":"好奇的是我們現在就是至少有各一人但是這個所謂的外聘專家外部專家是由勞動部來委外嗎還是是由平台的業者自己去聘請外部的專家來擔任這一個審議的委員因為如果是平台自己聘請的話會不會有"},{"start":3457.154,"end":3482.08,"text":"比較熟悉或者是有利於平台的分析喔那這樣子的話是不是就對於外送員會權益受損這是我想請問的那另外第二個要問的問題是說對不起先問這個問題我突然想沒想到先這樣子好那老總部要先回應還是等陳培佑一起好了好不好"},{"start":3483.78,"end":3510.667,"text":"一樣的問題好那陳佩玉委員請發言因為剛剛范雲委員他其實講的是單一性別啦那其實不限得是女性喔所以我想先提示一下是單一性別那當然要不要設或是怎麼設我們就尊重勞動部的說法也想聽聽看那另外關於族群的問題我剛在聽羅廷維委員在講的時候我可以理解而且我也可以想像假設我們在這麼多外送員的樣態當中有因為族群的個案的問題"},{"start":3511.847,"end":3526.143,"text":"我們沒有辦法信任這個獨立的委員會的時候我們到底可以怎麼做那或者是跟性別有關的個案的時候所以有沒有一個可能的機制是假設不要硬加在這個委員會裡頭但是我們遇到不管是因為族群性別"},{"start":3527.444,"end":3542.23,"text":"比較特殊的個案的時候我們在委有相關的專家一併參與會議給一個彈性跟空間但又同時兼顧所有剛剛委員們的擔心但實務上的做法是不是合邀請勞動部回應一下再想一下這樣謝謝好請勞動部回應"},{"start":3546.455,"end":3573.65,"text":"主席各位有關於這個委員會我要跟各位委員報告長期來外送員確實對於因為被中止契約都沒有救濟的路徑然後常常很多的抱怨然後也認為平台都回復都是用罐頭式的回復也根本沒有做調查或者往往都聽消費者片面之詞或商家片面之詞就把它中止契約了所以我們這一次就做一個很大的設計"},{"start":3575.251,"end":3588.406,"text":"其實這個設計我們我剛剛有在跟各位報告就說連企業的受苦勞工我們都沒有強迫企業一定要設計一套這樣的一個委員會然後去做審視然後讓當事人做說明"},{"start":3590.268,"end":3614.185,"text":"因此我們認為這樣的一個設計已經足夠讓我們的外送員在這樣一個機會上可以陳述你的意見而且我們前面有鋪陳說公司要負矩陣的責任就是說到底這個原因是在哪裡你要矩陣出來然後最重要的是說外送員消費那個平台是認為消費者的資訊不能揭露怕有風險"},{"start":3615.786,"end":3644.773,"text":"所以在這個獨立的三人小組裡面呢他們就可以去做一個公開的討論那這裡面有工會代表所以剛剛有委員會認為說這個這裡面的厲害關係人這個沒有厲害關係人的學者專家會不會有一些聽從那個平台的可能性那因為有工會代表在裡面所以我認為倒不會有不至於說裡面的好像連同在一起因為工會代表他很容易可以監督得了這個平台的運作"},{"start":3645.413,"end":3672.951,"text":"所以我們的建議的方式還是讓他這樣子運作下去會比較好我們不要過度的介入那有關於這個各位有提到那個單一性別跟原住民那我們如果未來在說明欄補充一下就是如果涉及到特殊的一些對象是不是在邀請了學者專家裡面去考量這樣的一個特殊的對象"},{"start":3674.374,"end":3682.774,"text":"來做聆聘的委員參與我會比較好一個彈性在說明欄寫那我們就不用特別在裡面訂有關性別跟"},{"start":3685.302,"end":3703.675,"text":"想要跟委員說明因為這個這個所謂的處理小組其實的確是在基於目前的這個情況目前外送員一直在抱怨的狀況下那我們把他設定主要是在中止契約的部分因為中止契約的事項是比較大"},{"start":3704.535,"end":3728.237,"text":"那可是我们认为他其实最核心的概念是让外送员有地方可以面对面的把自己的情境跟处境给讲出来然后有一些不是不只是平台自己而是有外部的人来一起综合的来判断我想这是一个最核心的目的但是我在想说不管是刚才讲到说原住民也好性别也好我们有没有可能因为他真的这个因为这不是一个政府的委员会"},{"start":3729.017,"end":3755.385,"text":"我想要說明的時候是說這不是一個政府的委員會只是我們希望透過平台透過這個方式來去處理相關的申訴或者是假設有覺得不是很適當的這個停這不是停權這是終止契約的處理的時候有一個外部機制來去處理這個問題所以我們沒有想要把它去設計的有點像是一個政府內部委員如果今天是一個政府內部委員會當然就一定要"},{"start":3755.925,"end":3783.434,"text":"多少比例的性别多少的就有一套我们的规定可是他不是一个政府内部的委员会的时候我们就觉得这部分我们的强制性跟规管就不用到他的这个比例一定要抓到这么严格可是我们在立法说明上面可以请就是说这个处理小组的处理应该要注意到有哪些哪些专业然后什么我们可不可以用这种方式不一定是说他一定是要有一个原住民的代表后面就可能要有新住民的代表要有"},{"start":3784.394,"end":3813.099,"text":"這個就就變得很對謝謝好那先請羅天惟委員發言然後陳昭志委員發言好謝謝佩玉委員的提醒是單一性別這個都可以認同但是我剛剛聽完勞動部的說明以後當然我們沒有說一定要入法但是我還是要提醒就是說只是立法說明的話並沒有強制立那到時候如果演變出一些問題或者是就只是說明我沒有一定要做"},{"start":3813.686,"end":3841.962,"text":"那会不会造成权益上的受损这个我们应该要考量那第二个就是说我刚想到我的问题就是说我们在这一次像比如说好劳动部刚刚提供的这个条文的修正建议我们看到他上面第三款他写说外送员与合作商家与消费者就外送服务所发生的争议他是一个申诉机制他是一个契约解约的一个机制那我想问一下就说那今天如果是"},{"start":3843.066,"end":3871.518,"text":"他不是跟外送員的我是我不是消費者我是那個合作商家我是店家那我也不一定是跟外送員發生的爭議我是跟平台因為我們也有看過商家遇到被平台剝削他的剝削不是抽成喔是他要求他一起來辦一個打折扣的活動結果他跟他講說你折扣完大概會賺到30塊結果他折扣完"},{"start":3872.225,"end":3891.556,"text":"變成只剩下五塊甚至是要倒賠五塊那然後導致他虧損一萬兩萬的時候那這個申訴機制度可不可以也納入在這裡面一起來做一個幫他們來發生的一個管道這個是我要幫所謂的不只是外送員對"},{"start":3893.604,"end":3919.077,"text":"商家還有商家被平台的問題還有消費者被平台的問題是不是都能夠納入到這一個申訴機制一起來試用這是我關切的那最後我要提醒的就是說剛剛勞動部有回應就是我是三人但至少籌組三個人嘛對不對那不得低於三人那其中一個是工會"},{"start":3920.56,"end":3945.567,"text":"另外一個是平台最後一個關鍵的人叫做外部委員這個外部委員又是平台去聘請的人那就是兩票對一票啊今天工會的人在這裡面一起參與了他反應了明明就不公平明明就漠視這些證據的時候很抱歉這個申訴的制度最後兩票就是一票"},{"start":3946.775,"end":3975.204,"text":"所以工會真正的聲音就被漠視了然後這裡的判決就出來了那還是一樣工會只能眼睜睜的看著這件事情發生但是卻無法改變所以我還是很擔憂就是說外部委員我們一定會尊重但是外部委員由平台來聘請的時候他會不會找一個跟自己比較match比較match的這個外部專家不要說不可能"},{"start":3976.209,"end":3989.684,"text":"我們大家都知道我也不希望未來的工會變成在裡面眼睜睜的看著這個機制就變成永遠都是2比1所以我要提醒好那請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":3991.445,"end":4016.599,"text":"我先就原來部分因為剛剛羅廷文提到的當然也是要再重新再討論因為這個剛剛涉及到外部專家說不可能當然有時候是國家來建議好像也大家也覺得有問題然後如果由外送平台或公會這邊來做好像也有問題那另外有一個比較折衷的方法是因為這個你所謂定義的這個具備勞動法律專業或熟悉外送平台"},{"start":4017.119,"end":4046.38,"text":"然后又有意愿又愿意来参与这样的做法其实你们就可以在有一个资料库这个其实过去在性别上课的时候到各个医院等等去上课你们可以有这个人才资料库那他的背景是非常清楚的他就是背景就当你他们可以从这边来邀请当他包括所谓的这个特殊的原住民的部分那单一性别如果有涉及单一性别的这个问题是从那一个地方性平的专家又熟悉又愿意"},{"start":4047.58,"end":4075.031,"text":"來參與的那個資料庫是非常重要不過剛剛羅廷偉提到那個商家的部分這倒是要再考慮一下因為商家有可能是要申訴者那這個部分如何顧及因為我們一直強調四個方向但消費者有基本的消費者保護法那這個商家平台跟這個外送員大家商家有沒有申訴的機制這個我也同意說稍微在這個地方考慮一下還是說另外一個法條來考慮謝謝"},{"start":4077.728,"end":4106.297,"text":"好謝謝然後請王玉明委員發言等一下請勞動部行政單位回應剛剛那個羅廷偉委員提到的就是現在新的修正版本把外送平台業者其實放進來然後因為委員會是他組成外部專家學者也是他找那會不會最後變成是2比1這樣一個問題我覺得的確要慎重考慮因為在原來的版本裡面其實只有提到工會代表至少一人"},{"start":4107.477,"end":4126.771,"text":"那代表其他的其實就是外部專家學者那這樣子相對他的客觀性還會高一點但是今天如果這樣的一個修正動力版本把平台業者直接就納進來了然後學者也是他找的確實務上的運作你不能去排除他就會實質的2比1"},{"start":4129.353,"end":4144.424,"text":"如果萬一每一次的申訴都是2比1然後都被駁回我想也失去了這樣的一個申訴你前面還在載明說希望它是一個獨立的處理小組獨立處理小組如果又是平台業者所成立"},{"start":4145.285,"end":4173.913,"text":"那我覺得應該要回過頭來解釋外送平台業者如果只有三位他是需不需要一位在裡面因為基本上是他也想要顯示他的這個獨立性來處理這樣的爭議那基本上他應該是越獨立性越高越好越能處理爭議如果自己還放了一個平台業者在裡面我覺得任何的結果恐怕會變成說即使他做出來的是看起來相對合理的但是可能都會被質疑說"},{"start":4174.933,"end":4200.666,"text":"你的人員不公平因為有你的人在裡面所以這樣是不是反而會是更爭議如果這樣子我會建議是不是回到原來的版本就是讓公會代表有一人就好那這樣子就解決那也讓平台去展現他的誠意你盡可能去找比較客觀的兩位學者進來那那個結論我覺得反而比較容易被接受以上建議謝謝請行政部門回應以上問題我們先"},{"start":4207.965,"end":4227.871,"text":"第一個是剛才先回答陳昭志委員的問題就是說我自己我自己認為不用不用成立人才資料庫了那為什麼其他的會需要成立人才資料庫一個很大的原因比方說在霸凌的市場霸凌處理是因為需要職場霸凌來協助調查的這個需求量非常大"},{"start":4229.008,"end":4251.787,"text":"因为很多的公司都需要所以我们才需要成立人才资料库可是在这个外送的问题上面我认为业者其实就少数几家所以应该不用弄我们要弄一个几十人几百人的人才资料库来否这个很少数的外送平台业我倒觉得不一定需要可是在职场霸凌的这个"},{"start":4253.368,"end":4273.388,"text":"里面其实大家也会对说那是不是这个裁判都是你们找的这都是公司找的所以当时其实也是有一个就说要把与无利害关系这个事情给入法所以这次的配套里面其实在我们把虽然放入一个平台业者但是在大家在第二款可以看到其实也是把"},{"start":4273.948,"end":4291.625,"text":"无利害关系与外送平台无利害关系的外部专家学者来担任把这个事情给放进去这样子所以我想要大致来说的事情是说第一个当然这种外部员就是我的意思说比方说即便是职场霸凌其实他也会有公司来找"},{"start":4293.243,"end":4322.06,"text":"那也有当初大家想的问题如果都是公司来找那就是偏向有利于公司有利于主管的部分所以当时的这个惯常我们的设计就是要有无利害关系用无利害关系这个事情来去处理这个他要找的人选的状况那所以我想说是不是用这两个方式来去处理可是我至少我同意说刚刚前面在第一款的部分我们把至少拿掉因为我也不希望变成好像说公司代表三人"},{"start":4323.101,"end":4341.7,"text":"结果工会只有一人这不公平这也不合理为什么想要放入工会代表我想再说明一次为什么想放入工会代表跟公司代表一个原因是因为工会代表才比较能够去描述外送员他面对到在外送情境的真实处境"},{"start":4343.702,"end":4366.959,"text":"因為如果沒有工會代表的話他無法反映這件事情這是我們原本在想的可是的確也會有一些需要反映平台經營狀態的處境這兩件事情都在討論裡面該在這個小組裡面被呈現主要考慮是這件事情所以才會覺得不管是外送員的情境或平台的經營的狀況跟處境也應該都同時在小組裡面呈現"},{"start":4369.24,"end":4383.745,"text":"那個部長我覺得有點不一樣因為你那個人願就是說公會代表他代表某一個公會組織就是外送員他理解整個狀況他可以是一個代表組織的一個專家學者的意願"},{"start":4384.765,"end":4414.048,"text":"那外送平台業者他自己其實就是當事人你講的如果說在一個小組裡面要去陳述相關的背景他可以列席但他不應該是當然的成員你懂我意思嗎就是說工會代表然後你兩個比較客觀的學者我覺得這樣的一個team是比較有說服力的那平台業者你應該因為他本身就是已經是被申訴的對象你怎麼會是進來當小組成員呢我們過去在各委員會不會有這樣的情況但是你說要補充說明的"},{"start":4414.528,"end":4431.587,"text":"你可以小組成員要求你可以列行就是說你列行你說明那個整個運作的情況我覺得既然我們這次要做我覺得啦做得更客觀更公正更能減少爭議你今天把它改成外送平台業者直接就進來"},{"start":4432.748,"end":4461.423,"text":"他的確可以主導我覺得反而是添亂你就直接回到你原來的版本你就是讓工會代表一人因為他其實也是某種團體代表專家學者的性質然後再兩個客觀的專家學者那真的需要平台業者說明他就練習就好但他不要變成是這一個小組的成員我覺得這樣會是最順利的也比較有客觀性大家會幸福啦"},{"start":4461.994,"end":4491.669,"text":"這樣好不好我們可不可以這條先保留這條先保留好 洛天文委員先好 那個我還是要再提醒就是我剛已經講了就是說我是消費者我跟平台有糾紛還有我是合作廠商我跟平台有糾紛結果在這一個申訴的這個委員裡面呢平台自己就派人那他就是最直接的利益相關者所以所以我覺得這個部分上說你有自己派一個人"},{"start":4493.049,"end":4521.274,"text":"結果他只有工會外送員不能夠自己到場說明有工會可是平台自己有問題的時候平台可以自己現場就說明那這就是有一點點我覺得不太公平的地方所以這個我不太認同就是外送平台可以派一人這件事情那第二個就是說剛剛勞動部有提到且與外送平台業者間無利害關係的外部專家"},{"start":4523.84,"end":4549.486,"text":"你隨便你就跟他是麻吉了可是你們私底下當然不會有什麼厲害利益關係啊只是就是因為麻吉啊麻吉有需要厲害嗎不一定吧就是我們兩個比較Match啊你懂我的困境你都只懂我的困境你都只懂平台業者的困境的時候你也一定有可能是無利害關係啊我就會請這種人啊比如說我就專門請這個"},{"start":4553.739,"end":4580.258,"text":"資料AIAP的專家來當我的外部學者可是我都不請假設我都不請比較勞工勞犬的學者他也沒有在我的平台有任何投資啊或者是跟我有什麼利害關係啊可是我就喜歡請他你就拿我沒轍因為這邊訂的無利害關係我覺得太模糊了所以並不能夠保障到整個在運作的過程以上"},{"start":4584.278,"end":4590.655,"text":"先請相關的行政單位說明剛剛委員提出有關於商家申訴的部分"},{"start":4596.315,"end":4624.566,"text":"謝謝主席 經濟部回應就是謝謝羅廷遠跟陳昭智委員剛剛提醒 有關於合作商家平台的爭議 這個我們後續有放在不版的第14條 針對合作我們有放在那個 到時候會放在契約範本裡面 會有一個機制的的歷史 以上說明 謝謝14條不版"},{"start":4627.014,"end":4635.614,"text":"布板就是劉建國委員等16人的那一板那是布板OK"},{"start":4637.426,"end":4658.359,"text":"那有關消費者的部分將不說明那消費者的一個權益的外送平台以消費者權益的部分是放在這個劉建國委員16人版的第13條裡面這邊就有一個規定那我們後續會在這個定型化契約應記載不記載事項裡面去明定有關於消費爭議的一個處理"},{"start":4663.578,"end":4667.809,"text":"好那好那現在請陳昭智委員發言"},{"start":4669.189,"end":4697.054,"text":"我在就利害关系因为部长强调有利害关系的要排除但是那个利害关系大家也想说利害关系这么清楚那我个人长期在建因为那时候新药的引进大家都非常关注关系每一个哪一群病人可以得到这样的一个健保的这个给付我当时就一直主张但是后来也没有这样做就是说利害关系就是说如果他不是一个机密的会议那当事人你邀请的当事人是要名字公开的"},{"start":4697.634,"end":4712.037,"text":"就是說讓 那這個公開的意思表示你可以挑戰他譬如陳潮之在健保裡面然後我在說這個信仰可是如果有人說你怎麼可以審這個信仰這個現在你明明跟他們怎麼有密切往來等等就是說他是可以被挑戰的被挑戰 然後就是說"},{"start":4713.038,"end":4727.498,"text":"就是只要有這個機制有一點是透明化的機制的情況下是某個程度就可以比較能夠去避免那當然要挑戰就要有一個比較具體的說法這是因為這個利害關係其實很難界定利害關係很難界定 謝謝"},{"start":4730.24,"end":4749.959,"text":"好請陳培育委員發言因為剛剛部長有建議說這條就保留是不是我們就保留那不過因為剛剛委員們提出這麼多送出委員就是保留之後到黨團協商還是要討論很多我就先提出另外一個建議也請勞動部一併思考就是這個申訴機制完之後假設有人要求"},{"start":4750.96,"end":4775.452,"text":"進一步成立再申訴機制那有沒有想法或可能現在不用回答我們待會去想一想就好了我就先提出提醒謝謝好那因為這是第一次討論所以保留的話等一下還有第二次討論那這個這一條我們就先保留那有關於合作商家跟平台的申訴以及消費者跟平台申訴這個兩個的爭議等一下13條14條會討論到"},{"start":4779.861,"end":4806.594,"text":"那個主席我有個動議就是因為昨天我們討論那個第5條的時候其實是非常關鍵的嘛那勞動部也說他們回去之後會有一個新的版本就是保證這個基本薪資這個終點1.25倍然後加1嘛那那個草案我不知道是不是已經好了如果好了我覺得這個是非常關鍵的條文是不是可以而且現在在座的委員也蠻多我們是不是第5條"},{"start":4807.614,"end":4830.849,"text":"可以回來這一個非常關鍵的條文我們先把它討論好不好就是運費的請問第5條版本好了嗎是不是可以先發下去可不可以先給我們看"},{"start":4831.383,"end":4860.658,"text":"先給委員看先發下來給大家因為我覺得這條蠻關鍵上午出席的委員比較多的時候是不是應該要先討論我原本覺得繼續走下去但聽完他講我很好奇第5條所以我也很想來還是我們先這個先休息10分鐘然後然後這個這個先發下去對先休息10分鐘好不好20分鐘好了好不好20分鐘"},{"start":4864.867,"end":4868.856,"text":"先發先發版本下來一起"},{"start":6420.714,"end":6445.512,"text":"好好現在繼續開會那剛剛有委員提議啊我們就回來討論昨天這整部專法的第5條那因為這個勞動部已經把他們修正的版本發下來那我們先請勞動部說明"},{"start":6450.489,"end":6477.786,"text":"好那个贵委员那延续昨天的讨论我想要再做一点补充跟把脉络给讲清楚了那原本在刘建国委员版本也就是部的预告的版本当部预告版本里面其实当时的第5条里面有两件事情第一件事情是第一项是跟交通部的基本运价的审议"},{"start":6479.287,"end":6500.535,"text":"來連動也就是要外送員的報酬不低於交通部的基本運價的那條線那我們在預告的過程裡面的確有收到幾方的意見不管是來自外送員方或者是來自平台方都有提到一件事情我想跟各位做一個說明"},{"start":6501.277,"end":6528.682,"text":"因為這一個交通部的基本運價的審議他主要的目的是要去限制交通事業單位不能夠無上限的跟消費者來收費所以他其實一直以來他是一個上限的概念就是比方說某個客運業者或某個高鐵或者什麼他不能無上限的自己想怎麼收就怎麼收所以他必須要定一個上限"},{"start":6529.778,"end":6555.111,"text":"所以我们的确原本的在法条里面的写法是外送人的报酬不能低于这条线的时候通常交通事业会把这条线定的比较高但是实际上面的收费不一定那么高好这是实际的状况是这样可是我们原本的写法我们也也做了一些检讨原本的写法说外送人的报酬不能低于这条线的时候"},{"start":6556.295,"end":6580.885,"text":"当这条线定的高的时候那外送员的报酬就会跟着拉高很多那外送员的报酬拉高很多的时候可能就会让平台的支出跟成本也会提高很多那因此当平台的成本也提高的时候可能他就会要跟消费者来多收更多的费用所以这条线他会有一种定毛式的引领的效果吧"},{"start":6582.681,"end":6606.62,"text":"一面如果把外送员的报酬给拉起来另外一方面也会把消费者的支出给拉起来那在这个情况之下我们的确觉得这事情是需要再思量这是在我们预告的期间里面各方都有给我们这样的意见不管是外送员端或者是平台端都有给我们这样的意见那这条线如果定的低那就变成外送员的报酬就相对会被压低所以定的高也"},{"start":6607.15,"end":6621.065,"text":"会尴尬定的低也会尴尬所以我们在思考说那是否还要有这一这一个部分来跟交通部的基本运驾来联动那如果不要的话那势必要找一个替代方案"},{"start":6622.786,"end":6638.859,"text":"那替代方案的意思我还是要重申不是要把原本的1.25倍的最低工资给拿掉1.25倍的最低工资这个以时间来算的部分它还是存在的我们也会继续保留只是交通部这部分要用什么东西来替代"},{"start":6639.58,"end":6667.285,"text":"那所以我们考量一个状况是1.25倍的最低工资其实它比较能够去保障到的是需要比较花时间的长单那短单的部分假如以外送的情况来说可能会有很多6分钟7分钟8分钟都有的可是如果6分钟7分钟8分钟都用这个1.25倍也就是每分钟4.1块的话那它的保障可能就会不足"},{"start":6668.59,"end":6695.089,"text":"所以我们应该要在替代方案上面比较是针对短单的情况尤其是都市里面会有比较多的短单的情况来做一个保障的策略这也是为什么我们后来觉得可能还是来做一个更简单的保底的做法更简单的保底的做法来处理短单的保障那我们综合各种因素我们现在我们选择的保底的做法是45块"},{"start":6696.67,"end":6711.312,"text":"那但是这45块未来也会跟着最低工资如果提升的话这45块也会跟着联动提高按最低工资提高的比例来提高我想这是我们现在认为在报酬这一条的双重的"},{"start":6712.753,"end":6731.589,"text":"一個是1.25倍的最低工資用時間來算另外一個是保底的45塊然後未來會跟著最低工資聯動的這個情況這是我們經過昨天晚上的討論跟委員也在昨天大家委員們討論的脈絡裡面我們提出來的一個替代的方案的做法謝謝請這個羅廷偉委員先發言"},{"start":6738.968,"end":6762.479,"text":"好謝謝勞動部今天提出了條文修正建議其實講白昨天我們結束討論以後晚上的私訊留言其實蠻多的大家都很關注在這個部分那現在在討論到這個保底的部分新台幣45元我覺得這都可以開放性討論都沒有關係但是我還是要再提醒剛剛有提到剛剛"},{"start":6763.419,"end":6791.806,"text":"劳动部有提到第一个就是说随着这个最低工资会去做一个调整每年度的一个部分去做一个检讨但是我希望说在文字上能够再增加一些我举例来说请大家听听看我们现在就是外送平台几户外送员每笔订单之基本报酬逗点我觉得说要再增加一句话就是应包含机车行车的成本"},{"start":6793.027,"end":6809.728,"text":"我們的這個狀況不只是現行我們遇到的最低薪資逐年會調整的一個問題還有有可能油價也會隨著調整所以我希望有一個機制去探討所以後面也希望能夠增加文字是前向"},{"start":6811.285,"end":6837.361,"text":"機車行車成本應由交通主管機關委由專業單位調查訂定之並定期的更新所以我希望說用這樣子的方式也能夠保障說現行制度上45元是可以討論的但是未來如果隨著突然油價大幅度的增長的時候這個部分是不是能夠也能夠保障他們的一個權益合理性的一個做被評估去審議以上"},{"start":6839.636,"end":6848.873,"text":"好 那是不是先請勞動部長解釋完之後請楊耀委員發言好 剛才羅委員其實講的部分其實已經放入考慮了"},{"start":6851.144,"end":6874.298,"text":"羅遠剛才講的包括他的行車的成本包括油耗包括機車的耗損折舊維修其實在說明欄裡面我們已經加為什麼現在是1.25不是1這個0.25就是來自於這些機車也就是他的運具使用的軟硬體的成本其實我們就已經把它寫進去了所以我自己是覺得應該不用再"},{"start":6875.299,"end":6892.24,"text":"在本文裡面再提到這個事情如果沒有考慮進去的話不會是1.25就會只是一倍而已對那我可以再追問一下就是所以你說你現在提到的前項每筆訂單基本報酬之保障金額"},{"start":6894.238,"end":6920.416,"text":"由中央主管機關1000年度保障金額你這個保障金額是有包含這個機車的費用1.25倍意思是這樣子嗎就是已經涵蓋了1.25倍所以你未來的調整不是最低工資的調整是用乘以1.25倍之後你們就是像你現在推算出來的45元嘛就是說乘以1.25倍之後的每分鐘多少的中間值大概是類似這樣的概念對不對"},{"start":6921.769,"end":6948.99,"text":"這個要講得很清楚要不然的確剛剛羅委員提的是有道理的就是說其他的浮動可能你沒有計算你如果只採最低工資就不會看到他的工具的那一些付出所以還是要回到1.25倍那樣的精神去做浮動的調整就是如果最低工資比方說明年是現在是196元假如假如後年假設是205元的話基本上就是205乘上1.25"},{"start":6952.472,"end":6977.081,"text":"對就是205乘上1.25對所以他會跟著最低工資而浮動來調整對那對那不只是這個包括45都會跟著調不好意思那我想請教一下不好意思先請可能要先請楊耀委員發言我這邊想要請請請教一下就是"},{"start":6979.211,"end":6998.226,"text":"我們把不得低於新台幣45元的保障金額直接入法那以後假如基本剛剛有說假如基本工資有調帳要調嗎那要調是不是要一直修法不用嗎"},{"start":7007.13,"end":7019.838,"text":"我們就按照那個比例的調整就是假設明年的這個每小時最低工資調3%假設那我們這個45塊就會往上加用3%的往上加上去"},{"start":7020.918,"end":7035.074,"text":"比较不用每次修法也是说1.25我们也会随着最低工资往上走第二个呢也会随着调整那为什么要个公告主要的原因是怕有小触点有时候太复杂所以我们会来做一个公告好谢谢还有委员有有意见吗"},{"start":7046.176,"end":7055.49,"text":"對請范園委員發言有嗎有第二項的最後兩四個字依照最低工資的調升比例公告調整對"},{"start":7057.589,"end":7080.37,"text":"我覺得這個第五條的部分非常的重要從昨天到今天其實討論都有一些進展但是因為我們才這樣的討論時間就有進展跟變動今天出現這個不低於新台幣45元的保障金額我的立場是說能夠保障更多我當然就會更支持可是我就會有一點點憂心就是說這45元的數字"},{"start":7081.451,"end":7104.59,"text":"是不是因為訂了之後以後就很難改要很多年所以是不是我們第5條再保留一下能夠有更多的討論呢是浮動喔對啊後面浮動後面有說他會調整公告之那我只是想說我們是不是保留一下有更多的討論那個部長覺得還是覺得這樣子就大家就OK了"},{"start":7107.067,"end":7131.26,"text":"應該是說這個是我們現在因為昨天委員會昨天委員會的審議裡面請我們如果要把跟交通部的運價給拿掉的話要提出一個替代的方案嗎那我們今天早上把這個替代的方案提出那至於委員會要如何討論這一條要不要做更多討論這部分我們當然尊重委員會這樣子對"},{"start":7134.484,"end":7162.904,"text":"請林月琴委員發言然後請羅廷偉委員發言我覺得今天這樣調整過後的確也比較如我們期待的是說因為第一個本來運價就不是為了我們外送員的薪酬脫鉤的確就會相對是好而且有一個保底的作用那只是因為我剛剛前面在樓下在跟身心障礙的朋友在談事情我想剛剛不知道有沒有解釋這45塊的保底的來源"},{"start":7164.335,"end":7176.72,"text":"是怎麼算出來的其他的那我就覺得說因為對外送員的保障有嘛因為如果短單的話我還是基本上可以拿到45塊可是長單的話我又可以1.25的每一分鐘4.1塊就會滿足到"},{"start":7179.901,"end":7199.991,"text":"短單跟長單只是我比較想說針對那45塊如果事實上是也是合理的話那我認為應該可以考慮這個版本因為我們昨天就說1.25只要有一個能夠確定事實上是短單可以被解決的話那也是最理想的方式的話那我就覺得應該用這個版本來通過"},{"start":7201.798,"end":7229.8,"text":"是不是可以講那請後衛司長解釋謝謝委員因為我們當初在設計這個保底最主要就是考慮剛剛委員所提到的短單其實在渡費區很多那如果我們看一下他們大概就是10分鐘到15分鐘單站的比例很高那我們就在思考是說大概在10分鐘11分鐘以內的他基本上他還是要出勤比如說他一段的時間那我們希望讓他不然的話他如果7分鐘只剩下30幾塊"},{"start":7231.882,"end":7251.717,"text":"確實太低了所以我們讓他有個保底所以我們就鎖定大概11分鐘左右然後44塊我們就保護他然後11分鐘以上的都沒有問題了就用4塊1跑多少跑越遠你當然就拿得越多那個長單有的保護然後短單呢也能夠有個保底都會去跟比較偏遠的地方兩個都能夠兼顧"},{"start":7255.704,"end":7268.844,"text":"好請羅廷偉委員發言不好意思因為這個是重中之重啦所以我問的比較細一點也希望能夠更直白一點就是說所以現在如果我是外送員我跑短單只有5分鐘"},{"start":7270.818,"end":7288.422,"text":"5分鐘從前面我們剛說的1分鐘4.1嘛那現在就變成因為且不得低於新台幣45元所以我跑5分鐘也會有45元的保障對嗎好這個是其一5分鐘也有45元那我想問勞動部為什麼覺得是45為什麼不覺得是48"},{"start":7292.858,"end":7305.287,"text":"變成45會不會造成漲價這個我也要關心啊消費者的權益嘛45會不會有漲價的問題那為什麼你們評估是45為什麼不是48為什麼不是50這部分可不可以再跟我們分享一下謝謝"},{"start":7308.634,"end":7327.723,"text":"請楊耀委員發言好 我有一邊問就是說這45元當然剛剛市長有說大概就是11分鐘左右那羅廷偉委員的疑問我也有就是說為什麼是11分鐘為什麼不是15分鐘 這個第一個"},{"start":7332.885,"end":7347.491,"text":"第二個就是其實我當然知道外送員很辛苦可是我還是要強調一下就是我們在專法裡面"},{"start":7350.752,"end":7369.159,"text":"直接提高特定行業的基本工資的算法保障它那會不會引發後續的連鎖效應這個我覺得我們必須要不能說我們現在討論外送員的問題那解決外送員的問題漲價了以後"},{"start":7372.885,"end":7389.888,"text":"會不會反而讓外送員的接單數降低反而造成他的生活收入會有很大的影響這個我覺得應該還是要做一下說明好 請行政單位說明"},{"start":7391.407,"end":7415.398,"text":"我們分兩部分我先講前半部分然後我們的確這裡面要一直去衡量一個問題那個問題是如果今天很多的外送員他的確是用低於最低工資的角度低於最低工資的水平在接單甚至他會面臨"},{"start":7417.082,"end":7446.12,"text":"不斷的被平台單方面在砍價的這樣子的情境這是不是從我們一個行政單位或法治單位大家覺得應該的狀況我們不斷的在要問自己這個問題也許單很多但是價格最低工資以下那我今天從勞動部的角度來說我們都希望"},{"start":7453.893,"end":7474.967,"text":"勞動我們都希望今天一個勞動者一個工作者他在工作上面付出來的報酬的效益至少是有一個最低工資的概念在那邊撐著底這是我們從一個勞動的主管機關需要出發點的考慮"},{"start":7478.277,"end":7494.355,"text":"在这个出发点下我也跟杨委员在说明为什么当时定1.25的原因是因为外送员的工作的形态他付出的成本跟一般我们去超商的打工不太一样超商打工他不用自己负担"},{"start":7495.236,"end":7522.655,"text":"很长时间的油资或者是那些机车耗损的成本但外送人需要所以确实在很多国际上面的法律里面会把要他要负担这个机车耗损油资维修等等等视为他自己要付出的成本要把它给算进来所以这是为什么从一倍的最低工资拉到1.25倍的原因这个0.25是来自于这个可是他的整个概念还是连接在一个最低工资的概念"},{"start":7524.556,"end":7532.799,"text":"這是還是想跟楊耀文來說明那45塊的部分我請市長這邊來說明因為這確實是跟現在的業界的樣態我們是考慮現階業界的樣態"},{"start":7539.08,"end":7561.658,"text":"主席跟各位委員說明我們當時在設計四五開其實我們也在考慮到目前他們食物上起跳的現在的價格差不多就是40到50之間有時候都會跟鄉村不太一樣它有不同的設計或者下雨天等等不太一樣所以我們就思考說我們盡可能找出一個大家的中間值避免平台或消費者受到很大的衝擊"},{"start":7562.779,"end":7569.109,"text":"第二個剛剛委員有提到是說5分鐘6分鐘我們理解可是我們算了一下45塊你要賺到245也要跑將近6單"},{"start":7572.921,"end":7592.359,"text":"那雖然是5分鐘可是對外送員來講他要騎要停車要走進去要拿再起來再到另外一個地方再送其實一個小時跑了5點多單到6單頂多也才拿到25就算他每一個單就5到6分鐘而已其實對他來講也都是一個非常大的"},{"start":7594.341,"end":7613.473,"text":"付出啦對對對一個付出所以我們用45塊我們也不會說一下超出25最主要他跟25之間要有一個連動不能說一個特別的低或一個那就沒有失去了保底的一個目的那一個特別高那就不太合理所以對我們來講我們考量到現在的40到50之間取個中間值第二個11分鐘以內的我們認為讓他保個底"},{"start":7619.316,"end":7647.902,"text":"用這個方式去雙重去保護他然後透過我們公告調整每年的那個最低工資的方式讓他每一年都可以來調整所以我們用這個方式來保護好 請楊耀委員發言然後再請王鴻威委員發言再請王育民委員發言部長剛剛的回應市長講的我大概了解了那部長剛剛講的能不能我用另外一種方式來講"},{"start":7649.147,"end":7670.443,"text":"就是說外送員呢他除了是一般的勞工以外他從某個角度來看他其實有一點點自營商的味道在裡面因為他必須要負擔自己負擔車輛 油費 對不對所以把它提高我做這樣子理解"},{"start":7672.704,"end":7695.825,"text":"是沒問題的嗎那假如這樣子的話適度的提高我覺得應該大眾是可以接受的好 請部長補充我也做過委員我其實也知道各位現在在思考的點"},{"start":7697.699,"end":7720.917,"text":"说实话整个外送平台的经营的行为里面平台的业者他有很多各种大大小小的因素跟变数他要去做任何的价格上面价格我说价格不管是对外送员的薪资或者是对商家对消费者他有各种变动的原因跟理由我说实话我今天从一个政府角度他不是国营事业"},{"start":7723.168,"end":7749.301,"text":"他不是國營事業他有各種他會變動的原因今天下雨今天什麼各種原因都都存在所以價格的問題一直是裡面相對困難的問題所以我們只能在思考這件事盡量回到一個初衷在處理這個事情的初衷這初衷的概念就是我們認為這樣子一個外送的工作者"},{"start":7750.882,"end":7761.237,"text":"他希望有弹性我们该给他因为他的确外送也期待一定的弹性可是在一定弹性上还是希望有一些最低的保障好那问题是这个最低保障的逻辑该是什么"},{"start":7763.018,"end":7789.68,"text":"一个是最低的保障要有这是我们昨天我们在讲到说两个概念一个是最低保障第二个是希望他的收入是可被验算可预期的而不是好像充盲盒在品运器的这两个是最核心的概念我们是在这两个核心的概念思考该怎么在处理这个问题没有错我们都不希望我尽量把外送员的薪酬给拉高的时候也许会真的都会造成平台的成本的增加"},{"start":7791.004,"end":7816.714,"text":"就經濟學來看我們沒有辦法否定這件事情但是怎樣是一個合理的最低保障的拉高這個最低保障它的正當性跟利潤基礎在什麼地方這是我們不斷不斷在要問自己的點那我們覺得這裡面一個很重要的事情就是最低工資的概念所以我們讓他要跟最低工資連動我覺得這是"},{"start":7818.328,"end":7839.483,"text":"我们在定这个报酬的保障一个很重要的理由会是在这个概念所以我们也没有去我们都希望保障外送人的报酬可是我们也没有采取能高尽量高或者是委员如果有提案也可以提出来大家可以讨论不同的提案不同的方案之间他的思考点跟利润基础是什么"},{"start":7840.043,"end":7863.598,"text":"那我今天作為一個行政部門當然我們還是必須負責任提出我們至少看法也許不一定是100分不一定是最完美的但我們在綜合思考以後我們的看法是什麼我還是必須拿出來然後跟大家說明那如果有更好的提案有更好的提案思考的更周全的提案我們也樂意跟大家一起討論我們的態度是這樣子對"},{"start":7867.366,"end":7888.049,"text":"好請問還有這個請王宏威委員發言然後接下來請王玉明委員好謝謝委員喔其實我同意啦其實我們今天這個條文最主要的是給外送員的一個基本的保障它是一個它不是天花板它就是一個地板價格那"},{"start":7889.751,"end":7903.724,"text":"能不能盡如人意喔一定不會剛才比如說也許某一些縣市他可以同意好願意不要符合他的需求有些縣市都不一定覺得說這個可能是他的成本更高"},{"start":7904.504,"end":7932.966,"text":"即便比如說我們以新北市來說也許你在中和永和跟板橋跑的狀況跟你跑到這個三芝、泰山、五谷、淡水那又不一樣了但是我們又不可能是基於不同的縣市或不同的地區給它一個很大的range所以我可以理解就是說我也同意我們這個就是像基本工資一樣是給它一個基本的保障"},{"start":7933.746,"end":7952.111,"text":"但是我們又不希望它有一個定毛的作用那個定毛作用就是說可能對外送員來講就是說你反而把我設定在這樣的一個價格上面所以接下來這個是我們大家都碰到兩難的地方"},{"start":7952.971,"end":7973.769,"text":"对于劳动部来讲劳动部来说其实劳动部最重要最主要的目标就是来保障劳工的权益可是确实我们今天在我们的会议室里面我们每个人脑子里所想的可能就不单纯只是劳工权益的部分而是还有消费者的权益的部分"},{"start":7974.609,"end":8003.292,"text":"所以这有时候如果我们只有单一项的话其实这很好定我们大家都可以把它大幅调高但是我们又很怕这些平台去转嫁给消费者或者事实上再用其他的方式把这些成本又去转嫁给这些外送员这是我们不愿意看到的地方所以我想就说我们今天做这个条文第一个就是基本保障那第二个"},{"start":8004.173,"end":8031.591,"text":"我们也不能去授予平台有任何他可以去调价的借口我觉得这点也是非常重要的就是不能让这个平台用这样的一个方式去就是有各种借口说实在我们今天在推动推动我们这个专法的时候我们也非常清楚的知道那么在这之前其实已经开始有特定的的这个"},{"start":8033.512,"end":8054.041,"text":"團體已經在發動用所謂的會讓消費者這個外賣價格更高用這樣子來洗風向來帶風向試圖要阻擋我們這次專法的修正但是我覺得大家都非常的勇敢啦繼續的我覺得這個是我們該做的事情就繼續去做那"},{"start":8055.101,"end":8067.786,"text":"剛才也有特別提到現在各平台的實際的價格每一單最低是多少錢每一單最高是多少錢剛才有特別要提到40塊到50塊這個是大部分的嗎"},{"start":8070.487,"end":8092.249,"text":"有没有比较一个特殊状况我刚才有讲到就是说即便是同一个县市新北市最明显的比如说像在我们台北市选区比如你今天在我松山中山区跑你就跟40北头跑又完全不一样又完全不一样所以在这个目前平台的实际的实际的它每一单的价格"},{"start":8093.61,"end":8101.633,"text":"我們想可不可以有更精確你們所收集到的資料可以更精確的提供給我們做一個參考以上謝謝請王育民委員發言"},{"start":8108.066,"end":8134.351,"text":"好 谢谢劳动部今天有提出它的版本就是再次的修正建议那我想昨天大家在这条讨论非常多的确这次的修法我们要的是一个合理的保障也不是说诉诸要一个很高所谓的合理就是在兼顾这个外送员的权益然后还有消费者的权益之间我们今天拉出来这条线"},{"start":8135.531,"end":8153.599,"text":"讓平台業者他不可以因為這次的修法而大幅又轉嫁成本給消費者那這個昨天也請公平會就是要去注意到這樣的現象那如果按照現在勞動部所提出來的計昨天的1.25倍現在他換算出來的最"},{"start":8153.999,"end":8178.126,"text":"不得低於45元基本上這個很符合目前市場的行情也就是說如果是這樣子的一個修法版本通過之後我認為平台業者沒有任何理由去加價給消費者就是再次轉嫁成本如果這樣就是對消費者剝削這個是不合理的因為今天勞動部提出來的方案是折衷方案我必須這樣講因為委員的版本"},{"start":8178.706,"end":8202.427,"text":"我們昨天包含我自己的版本是希望基本薪資的三分之一最低是三分之一那你們今天提出來的其實保底變成是45元所以並沒有做非常大幅的調整是相對精算下來是取中間值的一個版本那如果是這樣子的話我覺得的確我們應該要讓平台業者知道如果是這樣的版本通過他真的沒有任何理由"},{"start":8204.008,"end":8221.608,"text":"說這個修法通過之後還繼續去炒作那種風向說我們就是要調高大幅調高這個外送費的這個價格這個是完全不合理的我覺得這件事情可能就是政府也要一個立場就是去關注這樣的現象我們現在平台業者沒有很多就只有兩家所以這樣的現象"},{"start":8225.052,"end":8243.082,"text":"那個就是變相再加價這個我們是絕對不允許的我覺得這件事情政府應該要有一個立場因為今天如果是按照勞動部最後提出來這樣的版本這不是一個很高的版本所以業者沒有漲價的理由也不應該再去漲價 以上謝謝好 謝謝羅廷偉委員請發言"},{"start":8252.695,"end":8280.157,"text":"对不起就比较谨慎所以还是再问一次就是劳动部有信心他不会涨价因为刚刚有公平会是他涨了价就要去采访但是我要问说因为刚刚其实劳动部有回应就是说有关于这个部分的利润大概都是45到50之间所以才45那所以我再谨慎的问就是说我们都要守护各方权益"},{"start":8281.452,"end":8302.9,"text":"以勞權來說這是重中之重但是我們也真的很擔心所以勞動部的評估目前覺得是比較不會漲價的可能性那另外我也要提就是說以目前來說他們現在的裁罰如果他們有達到這樣子的一個標準他的裁罰的條文是在第幾是你們有在第幾條會開始來做一個開罰這可以說明一下嗎謝謝"},{"start":8311.149,"end":8338.134,"text":"好請陳金惠委員發言剛剛聽完王育美委員說我也很贊同我覺得接下來我們要避免的就是這些未來成本轉嫁的不確定性所以如果今天可以有個決議大家我覺得各方平台消費者跟外送員都會比較安心一點就是配套措施來要求這個成本的轉嫁要透明化我們是可以請公平會再跟大家說明一下嗎好"},{"start":8341.061,"end":8351.774,"text":"然後來市長市長說好先請市長說明之後我請林月琴委員你要問嗎一起問嗎好那先請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":8354.082,"end":8372.874,"text":"剛剛前面都在問說會不會漲價我覺得今天這個權益保障法這個法應該事實上是主管機關勞動部勞動部應該沒辦法管人家漲不漲價吧那我覺得今天是說應該其他的那只是說這個到底合不合理已經事實上是在算出來是說從單裡邊"},{"start":8375.876,"end":8403.466,"text":"比較短單的11分鐘事實上是現在比較11分鐘以內的比較多那用短單來解決這問題所以抓了45塊所以我覺得這個可以接受那這是我覺得勞動部要盡責的要去保障到外送員的權益這一塊可是漲不漲價我覺得這不是勞動部所以應該是不是要請的是相關其他部會去來做回答以上"},{"start":8404.591,"end":8424.464,"text":"好 那也請陳昭芝委員發言謝謝 因為有關大家都擔心就是說這個法過以後會不會造成那個漲價那昨天公平會是很清楚的處理然後勞動部的說明因為你的基礎嘛就是要 而且公聽會是有平台業者他們也表達事實上現在收費是現在提供的這個報告是高於我們假設我們現在245還是距離相當遙遠"},{"start":8426.926,"end":8440.864,"text":"但是我現在但是另外一次我們現在關注的是消費者的部分但是那個合作商家呢因為現在這個平台跟台灣的合作商家收取的那個手續費是高於這個其他國家母國就是說大概兩倍"},{"start":8445.37,"end":8456.604,"text":"那如果說他是個隱藏的部分假設他要提高商家的成本這個商家也是我們要保護的那個stakeholder之一所以這個部分請問勞動部"},{"start":8458.935,"end":8476.587,"text":"有思考過或面對這個問題嗎假設他這個賬價我們看不到是在消費者端那如果在商家端那商家端這個部分那很多台灣的很多小吃啦就是這個就是所謂的微小這個這個他們的他們也是我們要保障的對象麻煩勞動部謝謝"},{"start":8480.514,"end":8494.669,"text":"好請勞動部說明主席各位這個有關於會不會漲價這事情其實我們也當然我們也非常的重視因為我們也不希望這樣的調整造成過度的好像消費者過度的負擔"},{"start":8495.71,"end":8520.905,"text":"那但是我必须很诚实的说其实在整个设计里面我们认为平台现在最重要的成本不是完全是在45块这个起跳而是在之前前面我们在定义的时候有通过一个条文就是每笔订单的定义那各位也得知道就是说过去平台他们的方式是第二单跟第三单的金额跟第一单是不一样的"},{"start":8521.465,"end":8548.346,"text":"同一个餐厅同一个消费者他们在整个去运作在计算的时候他们不会把它列成三单或两单独立的计算但是确实工会也很好外送也常常表达是说这叫单单不等值我虽然同时在一个餐厅里面取了两个餐结果我送假跟乙结果平台都把假的单的钱给的比较高乙的单的钱就给的很低很低"},{"start":8549.446,"end":8568.533,"text":"他们这个认为叫叠单不合理因为他们认为他给消费者收的钱都一样店家收钱的一样为什么给我比较少可是确实过去平台是透过这个方式有比较在成本上确实比较低跟消费者收的钱或许因为里面的财务我们不是很清楚"},{"start":8569.434,"end":8584.213,"text":"或許在第二單第三單他收取的費用會壓低可是現在我們是每一單都獨立算簡單講他在鼎泰豐收了三個單送了三個ABC變成三筆錢三個基本費就三個45保底"},{"start":8585.715,"end":8610.385,"text":"所以這就是才是一個比較大的一個關鍵當然我們 對我們來講我們當然是希望這是一個市場機制有時候我們在處理勞動政策跟勞動法令的調整至於企業會不會跟他的客戶多收費 漲價這有時候也不是我們能夠干預的可是我們也必須很誠實的去看到他們現在的現況跟大幅度的改變的狀況我們可能也要理解請勞動部長說明"},{"start":8616.027,"end":8637.331,"text":"那個因為各位委員都是我之前的同僚我完全理解現在大家坐在這邊現在都在也在想說會不會對消費者但是我只能說勞務部現在提出來的方案如果是重擴所有委員的版本"},{"start":8639.676,"end":8664.321,"text":"我們的這個方案應該是在所有委員的版本所有版本裡面對於平台的成本增加最少的今天在座委員們的版本如果版本的話對平台成本的增加應該都多過高過勞動部的版本而且高過不少"},{"start":8667.441,"end":8677.792,"text":"所以我了解大家現在在考慮的事情但我還是必須說朗普的版本是現在所有的版本裡面對平台的成本增加最少的那個陳昭之委員羅廷惟委員"},{"start":8693.154,"end":8716.337,"text":"好謝謝洪森漢部長這麼有尬實的講出這句話讓我們非常擔憂的部分事實沒關係你講出事實也都沒關係就是我覺得我能夠被你說服所以在基於已經保障消費者的前提我們都已經大致抵定的時候我想再問"},{"start":8717.83,"end":8736.277,"text":"那可不可以45變成4646變成4747變成48有沒有這樣子的一個空間當我已經確定能夠保障以後那剛剛你說的跟其他的委員差很多了嘛那我想更細緻的去討論45變45.545.5變46的問題這部分有沒有空間 您覺得呢 市長 部長委員 您可以提案"},{"start":8743.979,"end":8763.485,"text":"你可以提修正動議我先跟你探討我探討完我再決定我要不要提案委員你提修正動議我們就來討論對委員你提修正動議我們就來開放性的討論所以你現在是在我沒有動筆之前你沒辦法跟我討論"},{"start":8766.86,"end":8792.298,"text":"我的意思是說我們在委員會審議我覺得如果有這個想法那就提出這個想法的提案者應該也要提出那為什麼我覺得這是合理的那我沒有辦法去為每一個委員這樣子的方向提案那個提案去說明那個提案它的理由是什麼好處壞處是什麼我沒有辦法為每一個委員自己在心中想的提案去說明它的好處壞處是什麼"},{"start":8804.318,"end":8820.631,"text":"對但是因為剛才羅遠問我的事情是說那為什麼不46 47 48我說那那大家就那如果有提案我們就大家就來討論好那我用另外一個方法就跟你回應嘛就說我想支持你的提案最後你可不可以再說服我一下你為什麼會訂定45"},{"start":8824.588,"end":8829.304,"text":"我想我沒有說我都支持我想支持但最後你可不可以說服我你為什麼訂定45"},{"start":8832.855,"end":8861.343,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們就是在思考是說他們現在每一單大概就是10分鐘到15分居多10分鐘什麼因為都會區當然都會跟比較偏遠地方不太一樣10到12分鐘那我們也是希望大概10分鐘11分鐘以下的我們希望因為1分鐘4塊1是前面那個1.25那如果我們這裡訂的保底完全保護不到那等於是這個保底的意義就不大"},{"start":8862.003,"end":8888.571,"text":"所以我們那個範圍拉的範圍有個合理的區間所以如果以11分鐘來講就44塊所以我們希望保護在11分鐘以內的這麼短的短單而且他每個小時要跑到5.4單才有辦法滿足245塊的最低工資所以其實負荷也不輕那因此我們就用11分鐘以內的來方式來去把它拉到保底那至於11分鐘以後我們就認為跑的越長就是用我們的4.1來算"},{"start":8890.131,"end":8919.49,"text":"这个折中之下那再加上目前对于外送平台来讲他们的起跳大概保底大概就是40块到50块之间有时候乡下都市不太一样那有时候是天气好天气不好都不太一样但是他们平台也都会理解合理的一个保底的价格外送人才会愿意出门来做这样的一个跑所以我们大概用一个45块的做个折中的方式来做一个订定保底"},{"start":8920.63,"end":8946.199,"text":"我想過一個做法老公提三個方案來讓大家選比方說40塊45塊50塊我也想過這個做法5塊50塊那大家可以來綜合的討論來選因為每一個方案都沒有絕對完美的"},{"start":8948.371,"end":8955.108,"text":"所以我们也可以我自己也不排斥我们就提三个方案我们在委员会来综合讨论来选也可以"},{"start":8956.095,"end":8984.611,"text":"所以你要提修正动意了吗我可不可以提另外一个思考的方式那当然你今天我们排45块47块50块就可能划跑拉根那另外一个就刚刚大家也特别提到其实这个对于外送人是非常辛苦他一个小时之内起码你说什么5点不可能跑到6单他才能够达到那个基本工资的水准"},{"start":8985.191,"end":9012.537,"text":"那但是呢我們現在確實常常面臨那種異常的氣候當然颱風天是我們不要颱風天你不能出情嘛但是我們確實有這些異常氣候我這是從另外一個可不可以在這個條文裡面我可不可以請勞動們就是在一個比如說這個什麼樣的氣候之下可以讓它加權我比如說今天天氣下雨老實講如果今天下一個禮拜的雨你讓我"},{"start":9013.763,"end":9041.542,"text":"让我要跑那么多市场很辛苦而且而且又很危险好所以呢我自从另外一个思考方式我请劳动部可不可以对就是在什么样的气候之下我可以给他加权现在实际的状况就是在比方雨天的时候平台就会有加码的因素那对平台的想法也很简单因为我如果不加码的话我在这个条件下大家就不一定想出来"},{"start":9042.943,"end":9065.557,"text":"对所以我们可能对他也会加码所以我自己认为我说实话我们今天在处理报仇的概念我没有想要非常大量的大力的去介入他所有的行为我要去明定他所有的情境这个情境你要加码那个情境不能加码那个情境要少给一点我没有办法做这件事情我还是必须回到初衷"},{"start":9066.477,"end":9091.725,"text":"对于一个外送员这样子的一个工作者他的劳动权益到底要用什么东西来思考他的最低保障我只能回到这个初衷里面来去思考这件事情我没有办法在这里面想说今天遇到地震的时候会怎样遇到下大雨遇到台风台风就不能出勤了但是雨天怎样什么我没有办法去处理这个事情我觉得这个对于平台的这个介入就太大了"},{"start":9093.615,"end":9112.416,"text":"我只能想最初中的那個地板該是什麼我只能回到這事我認為這是我的想法但大家可以提出大家各自的想法來想請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":9113.922,"end":9129.402,"text":"我刚刚提到一个那个涨价不涨在可能的合作上假设但是当然劳动部你刚刚很清楚我也希望当我们通过这个法案的时候你基本上也要对社会大众说明说基本上我们定这个版本的前提下"},{"start":9130.003,"end":9148.52,"text":"这个平台业者基本上他的成本增加是是有限的那我刚刚也发现第14条哈就是当当做布板吧还会提到这那我就请经济部来准备哈就说当商家假设这个转嫁真的发生了我们担心的事情没有发生在消费但是发生在这个嗯"},{"start":9148.86,"end":9177.101,"text":"合作商家的时候那那个不后对抽成因为现在已经高过全两倍嘛他在母国的两倍了嘛那这个时候就说怎么来处理那你知道商家的利润但是要是不合理的被拉高的话那我们的当然这边有提到食安这些所有的问题都会衍生而出那我就请他们就准备一下因为刚刚就大家谈到涨价请经济部做准备我们在14条或是说14条合作契约啦"},{"start":9177.561,"end":9199.404,"text":"合作契約 等一下因為對 趙執委員說後面合作契約的時候再來討論好不好 那商家的部分現在先針對外送人權益好那請問還有沒有委員有什麼意見或想法那我本期想要問一下請問勞動部在訂這個標準的時候你們有去看過相關平台的公開財報嗎"},{"start":9202.489,"end":9211.476,"text":"因為我相信剛剛很多委員在擔心的都是說今天這專法下去之後對於這些消費者的影響當然你沒辦法介入他可不可以漲價但是你們有沒有看過"},{"start":9212.692,"end":9240.721,"text":"我跟還是要跟委員說明對勞動部來說最重要的事情是那個對工作者的最低保障是什麼我們不會因為他的財報很好我們就覺得這個價格可以定高他的財報不好我就要把這個價格定低我們在想最低工資的調整的時候也不是這樣想的所以我們能夠還是必須本於回歸到最原始的初衷我們覺得或大家一起覺得"},{"start":9242.174,"end":9268.15,"text":"給一個有外送勞動的工作者該有的最低薪酬的最低保障應該抓在哪一個水準怎樣是合理我們只能回到這件事情來去做發想好請羅廷惠委員發言市長最後再跟你一個請問再確認一次"},{"start":9269.492,"end":9291.482,"text":"因為你剛剛說這個不得低於45元你的試算是11分鐘每分鐘4.1對不對好我跟大家報告11分鐘乘以4.1最後的數字是45.1你寫45元所以我希望且不得低於新台幣45.1是不是要寫進去"},{"start":9299.38,"end":9319.39,"text":"因為這是一個基準點你不要看這個基準點它的浮動我不是在吹毛球詩啊它是一個基準點當這個基準定進去因為你是以11分鐘為主嘛對 但是你試算是以11分鐘每分鐘4.1"},{"start":9333.694,"end":9356.523,"text":"計算的一個大致的一個計算的論理對那我們在條文沒有寫11分鐘並沒有我們條文上沒有寫到11分鐘12分鐘什麼都沒有我們只說45元就這個定義好OK我沒問題謝謝請問有沒有還有沒有問題如果沒有的話"},{"start":9359.365,"end":9380.847,"text":"請問陳英委員陳英委員請發言然後再來請陳昭之委員我是想請教一下就是說在我們整個修法的過程立法的過程還有前置作業那不知道有沒有完全了解掌握平台的整個的運算"},{"start":9382.248,"end":9396.577,"text":"好這個我不清楚就是要請教勞動部有沒有掌握好這是第一件事我這樣看起來我想很多的立委同仁其實並不清楚那我自己是個重度Uber使用者"},{"start":9397.478,"end":9424.896,"text":"那我剛收了一下就是說每單45塊錢那現在還有一種狀況因為他們其實還有一些優惠的方案那比如說累積你訂單到多少之後你的那個就是運送的費用可能會有一些優惠那但這些要轉嫁到誰身上就是說我們這個每單45是"},{"start":9427.813,"end":9451.748,"text":"就是說運送員他就一定都是45那可能搞不好就是說我們在那個我們隨便舉例就是立法院旁邊送過來那45跟很長一段也是45那但是我是說你們去了解一下"},{"start":9453.275,"end":9480.071,"text":"我們在訂這些之前是不是應該要了解整個平台他們所有的計算運算方式還有一些優惠方案因為其實是很複雜的他不是單一這樣子處理那我提這個是就是說我們今天訂這個沒有辦法在座沒有任何一個人可以絕對保證說"},{"start":9482.577,"end":9496.091,"text":"我們在立法之後消費者的部分不會多付費這個誰都不敢保證我們也不可能去立一個附帶決議"},{"start":9497.953,"end":9522.409,"text":"因為我們譬如說那個剛剛也謝謝那個陳金輝委員的建議但是譬如說他診所要怎麼收費怎麼樣我們也不可能去用一個附帶決議去約束所以這件事情我是建議說我們是不是應該也要先了解一下那個平台整個的他的那個運算方式啊然後我們再來再繼續來處理"},{"start":9528.002,"end":9542.34,"text":"請部長回應我先再說明一下就是說其實當然對於薪酬的保障的報酬的保障這條我想勞動部是我們的工作是提出我們"},{"start":9544.71,"end":9565.09,"text":"的一些方案的看法那我也還是必須說如果委員們把現在所有的委員的版本拿出來可以看的話其實絕大部分的委員他在薪酬保障的這一條他提出來的方案是每一筆要是65塊以上"},{"start":9568.376,"end":9585.614,"text":"就三分之一的最低工资这个三分之一最低工资如果用今年的话对可能是要65块以上的我们的确现在提出来相比委员的版本每每笔是65块以上我们提了一个45块的"},{"start":9589.202,"end":9617.381,"text":"這個從不同的角度出發會有不同的看法但是我們也必須承擔一定程度大家就是說這個從65變成45的這件事情但是大家如果仔細看大家委員手上這一本絕大部分的委員的每一筆訂單是65塊以上的那我們也是考慮了很多所以我們把這65降到45我現在講的是一個事實"},{"start":9619.284,"end":9644.51,"text":"但对平台来说平台的经营来说的确我们不是平台经营的专家所以如果委员们要针对整体更多面向的讨论我们愿意跟大家持续的讨论所有的面向我们愿意持续的讨论但我们能够做的事情是在综合这些思考以后先提出我们对这事情我们认为比较能够平衡各方的方案"},{"start":9645.71,"end":9674.47,"text":"這個方案 我們的確是很大程度的降低了相比委員版本要60幾塊的 降到45塊也許會有人滿意 也許會有人不滿意我必須說 也許會有人滿意 也許會有人不滿意那如果委員要更委員們如果要需要更多的討論 更細緻的更多的環節去做推敲的話我覺得我們是持開放的態度"},{"start":9678.639,"end":9701.061,"text":"謝謝勞動部說明請問各位委員還有沒有任何意見沒有意見那是不是就照勞動部的這個修正修正建議也就是依劉建國委員等16人的提案然後仲裁各位委員意見修正通過我們在修正前請你先請司長先這個宣讀一次"},{"start":9708.107,"end":9725.045,"text":"第五条 外送平台业者起付外送员每笔订单之基本报酬不得低于该笔订单外送服务期间依比例换算最低工资法所定每小时最低工资至1.25倍且不得低于信贷币45元之保障金额"},{"start":9725.766,"end":9749.114,"text":"前項每一筆訂單基本報酬之保障金額由中央主管機關依前一年度保障金額乘以每年最低工資法所定每小時最低工資調升比例公告調整好那這個請問在場委員有沒有意見好"},{"start":9749.85,"end":9778.57,"text":"如果沒有意見的話呢那就依照不版這次勞動部提出的修正建議條文然後也就是依劉建國委員等16人的提案仲裁各委員意見修正通過那接下來就剛剛是討論到第9嗎接下來第10好那接下來按"},{"start":9780.051,"end":9805.302,"text":"接下來來審本席的第三章的名稱也就是好第三章在後面這裡68頁就是68頁"},{"start":9811.172,"end":9835.744,"text":"好請那個勞動部說明是有關於委員廖偉鄉的25人提案第三章的章名是外送保險與安全那這部分因為我們接下來這些條文不只是保險跟安全那還有很多的面向還有特別還有平台的管理等等那是不是這個地方我們就不要只是列外送員的保險與安全會比較適當以上"},{"start":9839.185,"end":9846.212,"text":"本席不堅持那有沒有其他委員有說明沒有的話就是本條不予採納那接下來進行這個第10條"},{"start":9856.603,"end":9873.461,"text":"主席各位委員第四條主要是現在外送員最關心的就是他們的投保商保的部分所以我們在第四條有明定那投保團險團體傷害保險跟責任保險而且沒有投保之前不能使外送員提供外送服務"},{"start":9874.882,"end":9893.403,"text":"以下我们特别对保险的时段做明定第一个就是团体商业保险部分在外送服务契约的有效期间都有第二个责任保险的话在上限期间就有了不只是只有在外送服务的期间包括上限期间就有责任保险"},{"start":9894.204,"end":9911.334,"text":"那至于保险的额度跟保险的范围呢我们未来就透过我们劳动部来公告保险的范围好有个机动性的调整的空间然后第三个我们以会请要求平台呢以书面或电子方式提供保险契约好以及缴费明细以外出人员收值好"},{"start":9912.194,"end":9938.545,"text":"另外我们这里特别明定就是外送员如果连续有14天他都没有提供外送服务的记录的时候外送平台可以暂时停止办理投保前项的保险经过我们这段时间的一个听取各方的意见我们这里做简单的两项的修正第一个修正部分就是因为团体保险它不会有缴费明细"},{"start":9939.585,"end":9955.916,"text":"所以这个部分好我们希望我们就调整一下就是缴费明细他只要保险机会提供给外送员收纸就可以了其实有关于外送员连续14天了因为确实平台业者有跟我们反映了如果外送员他其实"},{"start":9956.676,"end":9982.781,"text":"很长时间不齐了我们要等14天其实对于外送品来讲这是一种道德风险而且造成他的不必要的成本所以我们这里就稍微做个修正外送员连续三日无提供外送服务记录者这是连续连续三天都没有记录他可以暂时停止你只要上线他再给你保这个没有问题以上说明"},{"start":9986.435,"end":9986.657,"text":"請陳超資委員發言"},{"start":9988.835,"end":10016.258,"text":"謝謝主席 我想先請教勞動部跟金管會 雖然說額度未來會討論 但是我想是不是可以先稍微瞭解目前平台為外送員投保的團體傷害險和責任險最低保額是多少那如果有一個 因為外送員覺得要多一個保障 能夠自費加保超額責任險嗎那就金管會的掌握 目前有保險公司願意提供這樣的服務嗎 謝謝"},{"start":10025.682,"end":10026.204,"text":"請行政部門說明"},{"start":10030.143,"end":10057.477,"text":"好 勞動部這邊來說明依照我們目前的這個所訂的外送作業安全衛生指引我們裡面提到的那個保險額度以這個人身保險的話這個團體傷害保險是新台幣最低額度是300萬元然後團體的傷害保險傷害醫療的部分時資時付是新台幣3萬元然後住院日額是新台幣1000元"},{"start":10060.95,"end":10085.283,"text":"就是他們可以自己增加就是可以自費加保那個超額的責任險嗎那這個部分還有第二個就是現在有保險公司願意承擔會提供這樣的這個服務嗎目前您掌握隨著這個法嗎這個部分確實也是我們慈安署跟平台也跟金管會有那時候溝通很久"},{"start":10085.863,"end":10104.591,"text":"確實後來才有這樣的一個賢總可以來做投保那現在是把明文立法法定進去因為本來是我們用指引的方式要求平台業者去做這樣的投保那這次我們認為說把它立在法裡面比較有依據而且這樣的賢總的保險的利益也比較橫貧好還有沒有請王玉明委員發言"},{"start":10110.43,"end":10128.302,"text":"那個我剛沒有聽清楚你說外送員那個連續於三日沒有提供外送服務紀錄你就暫時停止投保前項保險那你原來版本其實是14天喔這個三天你們不考慮外送員他可能生病啊譬如說他就是一個"},{"start":10129.182,"end":10146.265,"text":"像現在流感他一流感他沒有辦法去跑單他可能三四天五天他需要休息一個禮拜但是這樣的情況馬上就停止保險然後他要開始又要加保險這樣是不是太反覆你這樣子縮短的目的是什麼"},{"start":10147.166,"end":10162.577,"text":"謝謝委員其實對平台跟外送員來講外送員可能本來就有他自己的工作有自己他應該公司幫他保的保險那是另外一件事可是你對平台來講我對你的責任應該照理講應該是你上線的時候我才有"},{"start":10163.658,"end":10186.481,"text":"那其實一天兩天沒有上線按照橫頻來講外送平台其實就可以不用幫你保其實照理講你應該上線的時候我再幫你保意外險可是現在我們把它擴大也就是說你拼上去幫他保假設你兩天三天裡面有一天跑三天有一天跑我還是在沒有跑的那些日子我還是有意外險給你成本我還是要給給付"},{"start":10187.882,"end":10203.533,"text":"所以這個已經有超過了應該平台對外送員的責任也就是說他不跑的時候照理講你跟我之間沒有任何你根本不上線那我要求我平台還是要讓你有意外險的保障他這個利潤基礎就不會那麼強烈"},{"start":10204.814,"end":10227.961,"text":"我懂但是你你這樣子會不會造成一種就是要持續的加保退保加保退保這個平台沒有問題沒有問題對他們連線那這個我們也跟公會討論那對外送員會不會造成行政上限也都沒有我們跟公會討論公會其實也能夠接受都可以接受你都不起的人他也覺得這個成本不應該花那麼多在不起的人對好好如果他們也都接受那我就沒有問題好請羅廷惠委員發言"},{"start":10232.826,"end":10255.991,"text":"可是我问他们他就是可以一上线马上就投保吗他不需要等一天他们都可以一上线就有好只要能够确保他能够上线投保不会因而耽误到他工作的那我们就可以接受简单来说这个保险他对平台的确是一个支付了的确是一个成本"},{"start":10256.691,"end":10280.449,"text":"那照原理來說的話應該是你有上限才有那我們原本是寫14天那時候是寫的比較保守那後來在跟己方溝通以後大家認為其實的確如果你外送員沒有上限你有一段時間沒有跑其實這段時間平台不用去支付你沒有跑這段時間的相對應的保險的成本這也是合理的事情"},{"start":10281.249,"end":10291.536,"text":"所以只要他的能夠機動的上下線這個保險的生效與否其實這是應該都還好所以我們才覺得可以從14天變成3天好能確保就好好那如果各位委員沒有意見的話那這條是不是還是請那個市長宣讀一下因為有修正嘛"},{"start":10311.052,"end":10333.913,"text":"第十一條 我們主要就修正這往下第十條 對 不好意思 第十條就是第三 以書面或電子方式提供保險契約與外送員收值並保存一年外送員連續逾三日無提供外送服務記錄者 外送平台業者使得暫時停止辦理投保前項保險"},{"start":10334.694,"end":10363.169,"text":"另外還有後面我們刪除了一個那個收值 對保險契約我特別強調一下我們中間本來有一個保險的明細那個費用明細我們把它刪除了 對好謝謝市長那各位委員有沒有意見如果沒有意見的話那就依照劉建國委員等16人及勞動部的修正建議那重採各位委員的意見修正通過"},{"start":10365.677,"end":10386.345,"text":"好那接下來進入本席有一個第四章的申訴制度那也請勞動部說明跟主席跟委員報告這個整個外送人申訴制度是使外送員的權益的一環那其實消費者跟合作商家他其實有的爭議交通部跟經濟部都會透過定型化契約去訂"},{"start":10387.405,"end":10413.957,"text":"合作商家也好或者是消費者的一些定型化契約那為此各方生物制度更加明確我們建議是不要定在同一個條文所以我們都有分散來訂定那因此這一張可不可以就是不用在這裡特別明定好尊重勞動部意見謝謝委員好那這條不予採納接下來進入到第11條也就是布版的第11條也是委員劉建國等16人就是布版這條"},{"start":10415.327,"end":10435.182,"text":"是 主席各位委員第11條主要就是我們對外送員他們怕是因為有巨擔造成不利的對待所以我們在這裡明定兩件事情第一件事情就是你不能強制排定外送員一定要讓他上線的期間或違反外送員的意願時期一直維持上線的狀況"},{"start":10436.423,"end":10454.134,"text":"第二點是外送平台業者對外送員拒絕接單或選擇下線休息不得有不利的對待主要是希望外送員能夠有個比較自由彈性的工作讓他不會因為拒單造成他有違反造成他有很多的不利的對待所以我們在這裡明定"},{"start":10455.254,"end":10479.521,"text":"至於有部分委員的版本有提到是從事外送服務這個定義的範圍我們從前面開始都是用提供外送服務會比較明確其實有的委員版本有提到是把商品運送重量提積的交通法規列入這個部分交通法規其實有明定所以我們也認為在這個地方是不是就也不用在那邊明定以上報告好"},{"start":10483.476,"end":10486.661,"text":"請王振旭委員發言好謝謝主席 針對第12條剛剛這11條不是完全服務嗎第11條第11條"},{"start":10497.813,"end":10524.824,"text":"第11條 第11條是就是有關離線權的部分我們知道雖然說道路交通安全規則已經有規定一個機車在處理的時候呢他有一定的這些要求的部分不過我們還是希望有機會把它放掉放進法條裡面最重要就是我們也知道有時候外送員在"},{"start":10526.124,"end":10541.591,"text":"他們已經既有的這個車子本身有時候真的很不得已可能會受限於要求要在一個時間裡面這個體積或者是相對所在的這個商品的重量會"},{"start":10542.771,"end":10565.07,"text":"無法無法真的很能夠如期如實的去做完這個事情所以如果放在法條裡面的話希望能夠增加或者是讓這個要求度配合度可以更為完整所以才會特別希望說在這個第三款也把這個放進去在這個立法說明裡面也把它說明清楚以上請參考好請請說明"},{"start":10569.502,"end":10586.287,"text":"是 那關於王委員所建議的事項因為在相關的道路交通安全的相關的一個規定裡面針對於貨物的運送它的一個長度寬度還有重量都有一些的規定那是不是就不需要在這邊另外做一個訂定 以上是"},{"start":10587.927,"end":10612.984,"text":"對不起我再度發言因為有時候其實派單本身他無法掌控就是外送員他到了現場才發現奇怪就是無法去遵守規定會造成他在現場服務期間造成一個困擾或者是影響所以才會希望再討論看看那如果真的像剛剛我們交通部所提的對不起"},{"start":10614.325,"end":10632.044,"text":"市交通部是覺得認為這樣已經夠的話那我們可不可以用附帶決議的方式來處理就是說到時候我們麻煩大家從這個附帶決議裡面希望根據這個現在的道路交通安全規則裡面讓這個部分可以得到更好的保障"},{"start":10632.985,"end":10647.849,"text":"就是就不堅持放進這個法條裡面可是可以用附帶決議來處理萬一這個外送員真的面臨不得已的狀況之下所要面臨的問題以上再補充是不是請行政部門回應"},{"start":10658.322,"end":10670.647,"text":"那是不是委員提到那個附帶決議的時候我們再來處理好那第11 我也想請問一下第11條跟本席的第16條好像是一樣的那有什麼差別嗎"},{"start":10674.704,"end":10697.751,"text":"謝謝委員的提案就是說我們主要還是希望用提供從事我們感覺上就沒有那麼簡單前面都是用講提供主要是這個對另外有下限選擇下限我們就選擇下限休息那看這樣會不會比較精確一點其實意思跟委員的意思我們都差不多好那本席沒有意見"},{"start":10700.792,"end":10710.461,"text":"請問在場委員有沒有意見如果沒有意見的話那這一條就依這個劉建國等16 請羅天威委員發言"},{"start":10716.222,"end":10742.179,"text":"剛剛有說明到這一個劉建國委員那個版本是基本上都認同我只想一個就教於勞動部那因為他的版本最後有寫說第二款外送平台業者對於外送員拒絕接單或選擇下線休息不得有不利對待當然有些不利對待是很顯現的但是我對於一個比較擔憂的就是說演算法"},{"start":10743.001,"end":10754.449,"text":"演算法會讓這個人比較接不到單那這樣子的做法其實我們認為是不利對待但是很難去揪出那該怎麼辦有沒有防範的方法"},{"start":10757.482,"end":10775.555,"text":"主席跟委員報告我們前面都有提到申訴制度最主要的目的就是在這個地方也就是說我們包括你的接單包括你的報酬如果你外送員覺得說我是因為巨蛋以後突然我的接單大幅下降"},{"start":10776.295,"end":10795.944,"text":"然後跟我以前或者跟我的外送員的朋友差距非常大他就可以提起申訴然後這個申訴處理呢就是大家可以把這件事情來做一些溝通來談所以我們的建議的方式就是不利對待可以由申訴的方式來做一個處理好 請問還有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":10803.151,"end":10810.193,"text":"好如果沒有意見的話那本條第11條就依照不版也就是這個劉建國委員等16人的版本通過"},{"start":10812.95,"end":10838.88,"text":"那接下來接下來進行第12條部板的第12條社會保險的部分是主席各位委員我們除了前面的商業保險之外這次我們也特別是希望那衛生員也能夠得到我們勞工職業災害保險及保護法所規定的災保所以我們特別在這條明定有兩個途徑第7條跟第10條各兩種途徑一個途徑是經過所屬職業工會來做投保"},{"start":10841.181,"end":10856.08,"text":"第二个是个人可以特别加保办理参加劳工职业灾害保险然后这个部分的保险的缴费的证明可以向外送平台申请支付他自行负担的保险费那外送平台业者不得拒绝"},{"start":10856.881,"end":10872.199,"text":"那外送員同時在兩個以上的外送平台提供服務呢僅得折一來申請那事實上我們的保險就是他從事這個外送的服務其實保一個就可以了都要收到保障這個就我們特別加以明定"},{"start":10872.899,"end":10894.13,"text":"以上說明那至於委員的版本的部分我也請要說明就是說我們定的把第10條跟第7條也把明定也比較清楚那所以我們用我們的文字當然很多委員的意思跟我們的差不多只是說我們有把依照災保法的條文比較明定"},{"start":10894.97,"end":10923.829,"text":"也可以讓這個外送員也比較理解透過職業工會或或者是特別加保的管道所以我們把第7條也把它訂進去讓外送員也比較理解以上報告好謝謝勞動部說明那請問各位委員有沒有意見如果沒有意見的話那這條我們是不是就依照布版這個也就是委員劉建國等16人的這個提案照案通過"},{"start":10925.64,"end":10951.582,"text":"好那接下來進到這個有一個第三章外送平台管理的這個章名請勞動部說明主席各位委員第三章開始就是我們針對外送平台的管理的部分所以我們在第三章這裡的章名我們特別就訂定外送平台管理以上說明好請問有沒有委員有意見如果沒有意見的話那就依照通過"},{"start":10954.383,"end":10978.528,"text":"那接下來第13條主席各位委員第13條我們就有關於交通部要針對外送平台業者跟消費者的重要權利義務事項然後依照消保法會訂定定型化契約跟印記載不印記載的事項然後再報請人員核定公告以上說明好請問有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":10982.363,"end":10994.934,"text":"好 如果委員都沒有意見的話那這一條就依照部版 勞動部的版本也就是委員劉建國等16人的提案 照案通過接下來第14條"},{"start":10999.151,"end":11026.876,"text":"主席各位 第14條是針對商家的部分由我們經濟主管機關對外送平台業者跟合作商家成立外送合作契約之重要權利義務事項擬定契約範本再來公告那契約範本包括商品提供的價格 收取服務運送費用金額或比例貨款結算與支付方式 食品安全與衛生管理爭議處理契約期間與中置條件及其他有關合作商家權益之事項"},{"start":11027.896,"end":11038.993,"text":"那衛生平台也應該把這樣的一個契約在7天之內提供給合作商下來收值這未來就是由經濟部來做處理以上說明好那請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":11040.762,"end":11069.346,"text":"就是剛剛我擔心的因為其實大家都想說公開談說這樣這一次的這個定價應該理論上不會增加平台業者的成本那消費者部分大家公開大概都聽到了那商家的部分呢因為這個在他們簽約的內容當如果他們對商家就是把這個所謂的目前通過法案他們所簽聲的這個成本增加轉嫁到這個合作的商家那經濟部有辦法做這個管理嗎"},{"start":11070.782,"end":11092.953,"text":"或約束嗎因為目前他們的手續費我們據我們了解我想這也是事實在台灣是非常高非常高我想我想也許經濟部也理解勞動部也理解其實今天這兩天我們開會已經有人提出來了大概在32到35%的這個手續費非常的高昂"},{"start":11095.526,"end":11100.195,"text":"那這樣對於商家的影響是不是請經濟部能夠說明一下 謝謝"},{"start":11102.008,"end":11127.213,"text":"請經濟部說明好 謝謝主席經濟部回應陳昭志委員的提醒我們在這個過程也是有談很多商家商家也有公文我們現在目前掌握到的最高是收到35%這麼多商家給我們的回饋意見我以餐食為例每一份餐點它的對於每一個店家它的成本不同"},{"start":11128.133,"end":11151.556,"text":"所以這個%對每一個店家的承受耐受度不同店家除了這個抽成的比例覺得太高以外在我們訪談之中店家還有關心到其實比如說剛剛有提到的申訴機制就是一個消費者他只要一申訴平台就無端的就先扣店家的款"},{"start":11152.276,"end":11178.648,"text":"他們比較在意的其實有很大部分會是這些還有款項款項的支付不夠明確所以我們後續會在契約範本裡面都會把這些店家關心的議題納入那至於抽成的這個%數店家給我們回饋很多數的訊息是說他們希望的是一個公開公開透明的計算方式在他們跟平台簽約的時候"},{"start":11180.129,"end":11206.484,"text":"平台有義務把後續收取的費用計算方式跟支付方式要把這些資訊充足的提供給店家來做評估是不是要跟他們簽約或後續的接受他們的服務那比較偏遠的商家也有跟我們回饋說如果說這個%一旦定了那平台他有考量說未來偏遠的地區也有可能不納入他們的服務範圍"},{"start":11207.825,"end":11233.977,"text":"所以其实这个比例是有点两面人所以尊重市场的机制那就经济部的立场会去维护商家跟平台之间商家的权益会把商家所关心的都会纳入到契约范本里面以上补充谢谢你这样说明因为这个商家的成本一旦拉高我们都知道后果因为商家大部分以食物为主那基本上他的这个成本拉高以后"},{"start":11234.477,"end":11238.718,"text":"那接下來的就一連串的問題跟藥品一模一樣當大家成本被拉高以後或是沒有合理的一個利潤的支撐那它的整個品質這個現在目前還是以食品為主這個食安的問題這個開始就會出現了因為我們昨天當然跟環境部長在討論這就怎麼從源頭解就是說包括這次的外送業我們也在思考說部長也在思考"},{"start":11260.923,"end":11280.235,"text":"未來是不是要求他們用所謂的循環資源而不是用太多的塑膠袋一方面也都在跑所以這些事情也是說請經濟部要稍微關注一下這件事情因為它最後成本提高的結果就是食材受害食材受害就是人民受害請羅天威委員發言"},{"start":11287.016,"end":11312.717,"text":"剛剛經濟部有對於這個部分有寫說這個契約範本那我想詢問一下經濟部有沒有考慮到這一條能夠像剛剛我們在討論外送員一樣有一個所謂的申訴的獨立處理小組用這樣子的一個模式來給予這個申訴的一個過程更公平的去做一個處理這個部分我想詢問一下經濟部對於這樣的看法"},{"start":11313.482,"end":11327.587,"text":"那另外第二個就是說想請問我們現在有一個狀況也要跟大家分享其實我不知道大家都是使用Uber Eats還是Full PandaFull Panda他有一個規定是商家的定價"},{"start":11329.212,"end":11342.884,"text":"不可以高於網路的平台定價不可以高於現場購買的價格也就是說假設一個便當同樣的內容店家在實際販賣是100"},{"start":11344.545,"end":11366.79,"text":"它不可以在網路上賣120、110、130所以通常會用不同的方式改成用比如說變成套餐含一個青菜強迫要求便當加青菜這個是Foodpanda的一個做法但是Ubereat的話它現在是直接就可能價格"},{"start":11368.25,"end":11384.2,"text":"會直接漲他可能就是130的便當賣你就是高於現場的價格那當然就是消費端就會產生高額的給付那Uber E他這樣子的做法也可能就是因為他抽成比較高"},{"start":11385.36,"end":11402.848,"text":"那我覺得這部分經濟部有沒有打算在這個契約範本裡面也去制定到維護到消費者的權益之外然後又可以幫忙協助到不要這麼35%的一個剝削來照顧到合作廠商跟消費者以上"},{"start":11405.572,"end":11430.528,"text":"好 請經濟部回應好 謝謝主席回應羅廷輝委員的提醒那有關爭議處理我們在這個第14條裡面有提到將來企業範本裡面會納入爭議的處理機制那我們到時候謝謝你的提出我們會在企業範本裡面把這個再寫得更詳細一點那至於你剛剛提到店面的價格"},{"start":11434.909,"end":11461.217,"text":"這個後續我們再是不是容我們再去了解一下有關您剛提到的Uber Eats他的這個做法那一樣會在契約範本裡面會納入相關的對商家的保障好請問還有沒有委員有意見附帶決議如果你不放心的話"},{"start":11467.09,"end":11482.496,"text":"好那這條還有沒有委員有意見好如果沒有的話那這個本條文呢依照勞動部版本也就是這個劉建國委員等16人的提案照案通過接下來進入到第15條"},{"start":11490.65,"end":11511.933,"text":"主席跟委員有關第15條就是我們有規範外送平台業者與政府機關因天然災害宣布停止上班的地區應該停止營業並通知合作商家及外送員那我們委員的提案有的是訂得非常的精細就是上午半天下午半天幾點到幾點"},{"start":11514.495,"end":11542.351,"text":"或者是區域的部分因為我們現在地方政府在執行這個部分已經很成熟了他也會宣佈時間所以我們這個地方可不可以就不用在明定半天跟下午半天第二個就是我們現在已經有所謂的地區來做一個定義的範圍所以我們用地區比較好因為現在還有包括鄉鎮的狀況有可能所以我們用地區來做定義的話會更精確 以上報告"},{"start":11543.595,"end":11567.469,"text":"好 請問有沒有委員有請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席剛剛有提到說有關於這個地區的部分我們覺得還是有所擔心我們也瞭解一般來講外送平台業者在政府機關因為天然災害宣布停止上班的時候應該停止營業並通知合作商家及外送員"},{"start":11568.529,"end":11589.142,"text":"這個是非常自然的事情不管他是雇傭關係或承攬關係或者是只要有這些處理模式我相信全國都會依照這個規定來辦理可是我們比較擔心的是萬一外送平台業者在因為天然災害以致使外送員繼續外送服務有發生危險之餘時"},{"start":11591.123,"end":11610.515,"text":"這個部分就是同樣的我們最近的案例就是在新北台北他可能會宣佈幾區是要符合這個停止上班或上課可是在就在新北不同的鄉鎮可能就會有要求還是"},{"start":11611.455,"end":11629.157,"text":"沒有到達這個停止上班上課的情形之下那這些外送員可能還是要冒著風險來去因為派單而去要做外送的這個需求所以我們才會希望增加第二項就是外送平台業者於天然災害致使"},{"start":11629.637,"end":11649.793,"text":"外送員繼續外送服務有發生危險之餘時就是就是那個附近同樣還是有這個高的風險的時候應要立即採取以足以保障外送員安全的必要措施就是可以去判斷即使他是沒有被宣布可是就是在那個附近而且也"},{"start":11650.934,"end":11674.454,"text":"了解不管是風像風力啦或者是這個雨的大小都足以會影響到這個造成的影響的話呢假設他是雇傭關係當然他本來就有保障可是如果他是承攬關係這個保障還是需要能夠達到有一定程度的讓這個外送平台業者能夠做一些可以"},{"start":11675.555,"end":11686.387,"text":"必要的措施來保護 讓這些平台業者能夠 外送員能夠有更好的一個基本的處理的需求 以上好 請行政部門回應"},{"start":11687.557,"end":11704.285,"text":"謝謝委員提案那這個委員的提案我們也討論過主要的關鍵就是我們現在天然災害就是一件動作就是停止營業就是讓他不能執行外送服務因為對外送員來講"},{"start":11706.927,"end":11734.149,"text":"我們也想不出來有什麼樣的措施可以讓衛生員更安全因為他是騎車然後安全帽也有戴那天氣如果不好我們還要讓他去執行再多的措施頂多叫他騎慢一點但是危險的時候刮風下雨他其實這樣騎還是很危險所以我們唯一的選擇一條路就是宣布停止上班上課他就不能執行業務"},{"start":11735.33,"end":11762.925,"text":"那如果宣布他還是宣布這個沒有停止上班上課那我們就說橫著什麼狀況之下讓他可以停止營業我們也擔心這個標準不明確就是當地方政府並沒有宣布的時候那這個標準就不容易去定我們也比較擔心這個部分明白那可是假設他剛好台北跨區新北跨區就剛剛提到嘛"},{"start":11763.465,"end":11775.567,"text":"就是他可能會限定說幾個地方是屬於因為天然災害政府宣布了可是他跨區去處理的話那我們怎麼去保障這些外送員"},{"start":11776.539,"end":11804.412,"text":"跟委員報告假設瑞芳區停止上班上課他就不能起到瑞芳區他就沒有跑去那邊去執行當然他可以去板橋他也可能可以去中和沒有關係但是在瑞芳那個區他就不能進行營業我們現在的規範是這樣所以意思就是說他如果是從瑞芳送到瑞芳他本來就不可以嘛不可以那如果從汐止送到瑞芳也不行也不行 對"},{"start":11805.972,"end":11833.62,"text":"那如果矽脂送到矽脂附近可是它還是風雨很大只是還沒有被宣佈是屬於這個天然災害的停止上班那這樣是允許的即使說那個風雨其實跟隔壁差不多只是因為它沒有被宣佈這樣子這也跟我們報告就是說現在對於受僱的勞工我們現在的也是大概用這個方式來做一個停止上班上課的一個定義範圍"},{"start":11835.06,"end":11846.753,"text":"那針對外送員我們路由一個新的一個模式譬如說鄰近幾個鄉鎮那這樣新創建的模式我怕外送員也會覺得有沒有影響到他的工作"},{"start":11848.719,"end":11872.214,"text":"有 我們也擔心這個地方所以我們還是以一個統一的標準就是受僱的勞工的標準跟外送員的標準我們讓他起義都是因為宣布停止上班上課的這個前提來做處理會不會比較一致性了解 可是就是還是很擔心萬一他就是穿過我意思說假設瑞芳她是被宣布停止停班"},{"start":11872.634,"end":11889.373,"text":"可是呢他送的地方是從一個地方穿過瑞芳到另外一個地方他的目的地跟他的起始地其實不是在這個被保護被被宣佈的地方這是一些假設狀況我我只是希望這邊可以有多多了解一下謝謝委員好那"},{"start":11889.713,"end":11911.518,"text":"我們這樣想委員這樣的想法我們把它放在說明欄就是說它除了停止上班看即便沒有停止上班上課或者是在鄰近的區域也應該注意外送員的安全然後適時的來做營業的停止與否的考慮我們在說明欄去強化一下就是說因為它畢竟就是鄰近的假如鄰近的停止上班上課的區域"},{"start":11912.658,"end":11935.396,"text":"那應該兼顧外送員的安全來考量是否停止營業是好我們在說明欄來增加一下好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝請問還有沒有委員有意見好如果沒有的話那本條次呢就依照勞動部版本喔這個通過依照劉建國委員等16人提案通過"},{"start":11943.513,"end":11969.875,"text":"那接下來是這個本席有提一個第5章的章名那請勞動部說明主席各位有關於那個第5章的章名那因為資訊安全跟資料保存也是屬於我們平台管理的範圍的所以我們這裡就建議不用再特別在獨立這樣的一個章節以上好本席不堅持沒有問題有各位委員有意見嗎沒有那本條不予採納"},{"start":11972.045,"end":11994.226,"text":"接下來進到第16條 個資保護的部分主席 各位委員第16條主要就是因為個資是非常重要所以我們這裡明文有規定外送平台業者應該遵循個資法的相關規定來確保城市的資訊安全跟系統的穩定保障包括消費者 合作商家還有外送員的權益"},{"start":11995.127,"end":12023.669,"text":"第二項我們特別明確是由交通部他是由產業儲管機關來依個人資料保護法相關規定要求外送平台業者訂定個人資料檔案安全維護計畫以上說明好請林月琴委員發言我想就叫那個勞動部這邊因為現在現況是這樣就是有些外送員因為他戴著安全帽"},{"start":12024.568,"end":12050.633,"text":"他上次有密錄器或者身上因為他為了保安他自己個身的安全可是到了公寓大廈的時候往往有時候會把大廈很多的資料事實上是拍出去的因為他在送的時候那目前看起來講好像是說那我要保護的事實上是保護的是他要保護的事實上是"},{"start":12052.622,"end":12078.864,"text":"應該講店家也好或者是說外送員可是現在另外有一個是沒有牽扯到的另外一方那我不知道你們覺得你們要怎麼去做考慮因為現在保障了消費者跟合作商家跟外送員的權益可是還有另外一方因為送到大廈管理的管委會的時候常常會碰到是就發現他們整個個資管委名單有些東西是被抄出去的"},{"start":12082.403,"end":12085.248,"text":"好請行政部門回應請陳經惠委員發言"},{"start":12091.116,"end":12111.996,"text":"我也想請教勞動部還有交通部因為我們現在在討論平台的資訊維護安全但是我們現在大家常用的這兩家都是跨國企業所以他的伺服器可能是在新加坡美國或是愛爾蘭可是這裡的主管機關是交通主管機關去做查核"},{"start":12112.617,"end":12130.436,"text":"我不知道我們如何有能力可以去查核到在海外的這些伺服器如果發生這個資訊外洩我們應該不太可能可以管得到外國的伺服器那再來交通部的專長可能也跟資安比較沒有那麼相關"},{"start":12131.397,"end":12143.989,"text":"是不是比較建議我們昭緯的版本因為昭緯的版本是依照數位發展部的共同介入的這樣子版本而不是指由交通部來做管理 謝謝"},{"start":12148.875,"end":12171.713,"text":"請勞動部說 請相關主管機關說明我先說明一下那再請交通部來說明因為這確實就是我們現在對歌詞法保護的現在目前的分工的方式就是用產業別來分工所以這次因為整個平台的產業的主管機關是我們交通部所以依照我們現在一向處理的模式就是由產業主管機關來做管理交通部來"},{"start":12176.929,"end":12180.5,"text":"請訴罰部嗎還是請交通部沒關係請相關機關都一起說明好了"},{"start":12187.154,"end":12208.222,"text":"交通部署做一個說明那有關於這個個資的一個安全維護計畫我們是依照這個產業那會要求這個產業訂定他的一個安全維護的一個相關的一個管理計畫包含資安跟個資那如果有發現這個個資外洩的事件的話會以個資法的一個相關通報事項去辦進行處理 以上"},{"start":12210.363,"end":12230.957,"text":"這個有各自委員會也在有沒有需要補充一下這個因為陳清惠委員剛剛問的是說那比如說有一些國外的資料啦這個你們怎麼管理或是他伺服器這樣放在國外的話你有辦法要求他們嗎各自委員會我們有各自委員會的代表站要不要說明一下"},{"start":12234.907,"end":12253.673,"text":"是因為因為他雖然說可能他的這個伺服器是在海外但是因為他實際上他其實是有在我們我們國內就是在我們境內去從事這樣的一個業務所以其實我國的個資法其實還是可以管得到管得到這個相關的產業的業者"},{"start":12255.513,"end":12284.532,"text":"但是现在因为目前就是我们各自法目前就是还是分管的状况所以可能实际上要怎么去可能去行政监督管理这个业者的部分可能目前就是由这个因为目前行政院这边是协调出来的分工就是由交通部这边来去针对这个外送平台的业者去做行政监督管理所以这个部分可能还是尊重这个交通部这边的这个实务执行的方式"},{"start":12285.506,"end":12312.342,"text":"好請問還有沒有委員有意見好那如果這一條沒有意見的話那本席也不堅持那就依照勞動部版本委員劉建國等16人的提案通過接下來進行黃婕委員第16條"},{"start":12319.481,"end":12323.588,"text":"請勞動部說明為什麼沒看到"},{"start":12325.799,"end":12351.971,"text":"主席各位委員有關於荒街委員提案有關於那個演算法的相關的規定要請大家揭示透過演算法監測控制評估的一些事實跟目的運用情形那我們還要求驗證等等這樣一個規定那確實演算法是現在一個企業經營很重要特別是像平台業者"},{"start":12352.971,"end":12373.594,"text":"那對我們來講我們在這個階段的明定跟管理我們先就外送員的權利做很明確的保障讓外送員可得知相關權益的保護那至於他內部的演算法的相關的規定或者演算法的相關的內容還有他真正的營業上的那些的資訊"},{"start":12374.995,"end":12401.454,"text":"那基於一個國際商業保護的一個框架的共識那事實上其他國家目前我們也看也到還沒有這麼強烈的去要求類似這樣的一個業者要去公開他所有的內部的相關的演算的一些資訊跟重要的一些內容所以這個部分我們是不是可以暫時先不要這樣定以上報告好 請問委員有沒有意見"},{"start":12403.14,"end":12405.764,"text":"如果沒有的話 那請李委員發言"},{"start":12410.78,"end":12438.203,"text":"其實我們都知道說外送平台的奧秘就在於它的演算法那因為我自己也有提案也是有關於這個演算法那只是說這個不是要去知道說這家公司他們的裡面的這個營業的這個奧秘是在哪裡但是這個涉及到說這個平台對於這個外送員"},{"start":12439.524,"end":12460.415,"text":"甚至消費者他們怎麼去拿到這個單這個單的價格是多少那其實都是在這個演算法裡面所以說包含黃婕或是我會特別有針對這個演算法來做一個提案上面的一個修改"},{"start":12461.295,"end":12480.141,"text":"那不過這個是尊重這一個各個委員的意見只是再次強調說這個演算法其實就是整個外送平台裡面最重要的一個機制好請問還有沒有委員有意見如果沒有意見的話那本條就不予採納"},{"start":12482.452,"end":12505.762,"text":"接下來換到第17條 勞動部版本第17條是主席各位議員第17條是我們希望外送平臺應該像定期向我們中央組委機關提供外送員的人數 外送服務期間上限期間及報酬等相關的資訊也就是說這次我們在立法的過程當中確實有遇到"},{"start":12506.542,"end":12528.887,"text":"我們有些相關的資訊跟數字我們都很困難的取得那我們想直接明併在這個地方未來我們就可以滾動式的檢討然後針對整個外送平台的運作跟未來的衍生的可能的狀況有更清楚的理解然後再做一些調整以上說明好 請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":12532.179,"end":12547.165,"text":"是不是可以請勞動部說明一下所謂這個定期是什麼當然我們常常都用定期 定期可是用這個也是有點模糊啦謝謝委員我們未來會在細則裡面去定"},{"start":12554.817,"end":12572.673,"text":"好請問還有沒有其他委員有相關意見如果沒有的話那本條一樣依照勞動部版本劉建國委員等16人的提案通過接下來是第18條勞動部的第18條是"},{"start":12576.069,"end":12590.674,"text":"主席各位從第18條開始有三個連續有三個條文主要就是我們要求衛生平台去保存相關的紀錄因為這些紀錄對於爭議的處理還有未來可能雙方權利物是非常重要的"},{"start":12591.334,"end":12610.983,"text":"那第18条主要是针对消费者的记录我们包括消费者订购商品时间商品的价格服务费运费包括取消订单的事由跟退费等等那这些的规范呢我们是要求他都要保存然后第8点是其他与前期管有关的这记录就概括式的"},{"start":12611.903,"end":12627.096,"text":"那最後有一項是有關機關得要求調閱前項各款記錄外送平台業者不得拒絕就是將來如果有爭議我們要去理解然後要去調閱他不能拒絕以上說明請問有沒有委員有意見那本席這裡只是覺得最後一項有個有關機關要求調閱前"},{"start":12638.604,"end":12643.977,"text":"前向各款記錄外送平台業者不得拒絕這個有關機關是不是太模糊"},{"start":12644.716,"end":12670.761,"text":"是 這個跟委員報我們的定義就是在這個法裡面的有定的機關才有權中央主管各機關還有地方要裁罰的機關因為他要裁罰他有權利去調那中央主管機關在訂定各種政策跟制度的時候我們也有權利包括我們啊交通部啊經濟部等等那當然未來我們也考慮說如果有擔心的話我們未來在細則上再把它訂清楚也可以"},{"start":12671.361,"end":12691.833,"text":"OK好那請羅廷惠委員發言我想呼應主席說的我們也覺得有關機關這部分要盡量寫清楚啦所以因為避免日後執法的爭議我們是不是還是請勞動部這個在執法的時候有關機關的定義跟調閱的範圍要講清楚定明確能調閱哪些資料都沒有寫清楚"},{"start":12693.646,"end":12714.298,"text":"好那請勞動部再回應一次是謝謝委員我們也認為這個有關機關可能業者也會認為這好像不是很明確那第一個我先表達是這個有關機關一定就是有本法有出現不管是前面各條文的主管中央主管機關乃至於後面的裁罰的地方主管機關"},{"start":12715.439,"end":12737.858,"text":"他們才是這一次可以去調閱的一個權限那為了讓他明確化我們未來也會在細則中去把它寫得比較清楚一點以上好那請問還有沒有委員有相關的意見好那如果沒有意見的話這一條就依照勞動部版本劉建國委員16人的提案通過"},{"start":12742.318,"end":12769.581,"text":"接下來進行第19條主席各位委員第19條主要就是針對合作商家的紀錄也是要保存也是一樣是兩年那包括外送合作契約平台招攬行為等等意思到貨款計算方式還有最後一個也是有個其他與第五款有關之紀錄那最後一項如同前面所稱也是要可以要求調閱不得拒絕以上說明"},{"start":12773.492,"end":12785.057,"text":"好請問有沒有委員有相關的意見好那如果沒有的話那本條文也依照勞動部版本委員劉建國等16人提案通過"},{"start":12789.52,"end":12816.893,"text":"接下來第20條第20條主席各位委員 第20條是針對我們衛生員的紀錄的保存包括衛生服務契約 衛生服務期間等等那一樣第7有一個其他與前6款有關之紀錄那最後一項一樣明定有關機關得要求調閱前項各款紀錄衛生平台業者不得拒絕以上好請問有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":12821.857,"end":12830.612,"text":"那如果各位委員沒有意見的話那本條呢也依照勞動部的版本而也就是委員劉建國等16人提案通過接下來進入第21條"},{"start":12836.216,"end":12861.273,"text":"主席各位21條主要是針對外送員萬一發生職業災害的狀況之後應該要趕快來做當地勞工行政機關檢查機構要去通報而且要進行事故的調查分析做成記錄第一個發生死亡災害第二個發生災害之離災人數在一人以上而且需要住院治療者以上說明好請問有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":12865.762,"end":12874.526,"text":"好各位委員如果對於本條次沒有意見的話那本條也依照勞動部的版本委員劉建國等16人提案通過接下來進入第22條"},{"start":12880.286,"end":12900.294,"text":"主席各位第二十二條主要就是要明定我們要平台要對新加入的外送員應該提供一定時數的職業安全衛生交通安全及食品衛生安全其他必要的教育訓練然後第二項我們是明定每一年就應該要求提供外送服務的外送員至少完成一定時數的教育訓練"},{"start":12901.374,"end":12913.668,"text":"那第三項我們就授權包括勞動部 交通部及衛福部分別針對上面那兩項事項去定制有關於時數跟內容以上說明好 請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":12915.199,"end":12941.847,"text":"這邊我主張還是要明確規定訓練的時數所以我的版本事實上有列出來各一個小時職業安全訓練跟交通安全訓練跟食品衛生安全訓練這是必要性的而且強調需有一個回訓機制且不得收費或以此作為最低服務期限的一個約定來保障外送員不應接受訓練而損害他的工作彈性可是我覺得要有些定"},{"start":12942.627,"end":12965.523,"text":"定定那個時數而且重點還是要放在交通環境層面的高風險性不是外送員個人的問題所以從交通部數據來看的話事故率已有顯著的下降的確從110年的0.47降到113年的0.25表示訓練室上是有它的一些必要性所在"},{"start":12966.343,"end":12983.016,"text":"所以相關課程的實施我覺得還要考慮到他專業性也應該讓交通目的事業主管機關來去訂定所以目前大交通部既有的機車外送交通安全的指引我覺得已經演明定說要一個小時所以根據"},{"start":12984.238,"end":12997.189,"text":"產工會的說法的話實務上訓練有時候甚至會超越不過在這規範上應該沒有一些什麼爭議啦所以我希望說是不是可以明定時數甚至應該每一年還是要有一定的交通安全的課程"},{"start":13000.442,"end":13026.042,"text":"主席謝謝委員那我們當初也在思考那個時數要不要明定只是我們也跟交通部大家討論了現在時數有時候是會做一些調整甚至交通部會針對違反嚴重的那個時數也會加大他保持一些彈性所以我們這裡把定名就一個小時我覺得業者他就只有一個小時他不會更多所以我們寫一個小時以上他可能就是一個小時"},{"start":13026.963,"end":13054.381,"text":"那授权给我们交通部或卫福部劳动部我们看每年的状况可以做一些调整跟增加这个我们就有个弹性第二个就是有关于那个收取费用这个部分当然是不能收取费用但是如果委员觉得这部分有需要我们将来在定那个时数跟内容的时候我们也可以在里面特别去强调你这个上这个课不能跟任何的外送人在跟他收费这个部分我们当然可以在里面再做处理"},{"start":13055.061,"end":13083.56,"text":"可是另外一個就是說如果你前面如果這樣講那你們後面會配套我沒有兼職可是就像我們在學前教育這一塊會要求安全教育而且每一年要上那你現在前面訓練過後可是我們現在擔心的是因為原來事實上是新加入的要上可是每一年還是要上交通安全課程所以我這個部分我比較堅持說每一年的這一塊一定要再做"},{"start":13085.97,"end":13107.148,"text":"好 請交通部回應交通部說明有關於林委員所垂詢的事項事實上我們在訂定機車外送交通安全指引裡面應該有分為三個項次第一個是職權的訓練第二個是每年要做一個定期的訓練第三個是如果他有發生重大交通安全的違規事項的話他還要到駕訓班進行普通機車的駕訓訓練"},{"start":13112.452,"end":13119.189,"text":"所以相關機制應該在整個一個機車外送交通安全執行裡面應該都有鳴聽 以上說明"},{"start":13121.189,"end":13149.234,"text":"好林月琴委員再發言我覺得以往其他法的經驗大概都最後都不會有一個因為強制有要求的話我覺得所以我比較堅持是在我的版本裡邊這邊提的就是每年要求外送員至少完成一定時數以外可是一定要包含至少一個小時的交通安全課程就是一定要有交通我很怕的是都沒有就是說最後選項不管是過去我們在看"},{"start":13151.674,"end":13168.843,"text":"教育單位的18小時也是這樣為什麼性評跟安全教育有些特別要求在就是每一年都一定要上到所以我比較希望說是不是可以這樣子報告委員我們的第一項寫法是三個都要有"},{"start":13169.463,"end":13191.389,"text":"不是三個混在一起就一個而已沒有我們是三個都是獨立的而且是各自都要有時數所以我們三個部會各自都會定不會說只有上食品安全衛生然後不上交通安全不至於就三個部會都一定會定都一定會有時數而且如果我們定時數肯定都一個小時以上"},{"start":13192.95,"end":13203.367,"text":"我先講的是說後邊每一年因為前面事實上是針對於有比較清楚的是針對新加入的有講這三個後邊就比較沒有這樣子只是講說一定的時數"},{"start":13207.71,"end":13230.407,"text":"跟委員做說明現在劉建國委員版本裡面的第二項就提到每年應要求這個提供外送人至少完成一定時數的教育訓練那這個教育訓練的時數課程裡面就在第三項他說一定的時數跟內容有關事項由各個部會各個主管機關來定制所以應該是都有含在裡面包含那個每一年的教育訓練 對"},{"start":13233.092,"end":13252.164,"text":"過去我們在看其他法條在其他的那個像教育的那個寫這樣的狀況裡邊通常都還是選項不見得就是一定會去納入你們想要的搞不好事實上是我只選今年我給他的是食品安全明年我可能給他的是要求他職業安全那我強調的就是交通這一塊"},{"start":13258.624,"end":13263.43,"text":"跟委員說明一下我們在後面的罰則都有定他沒有辦理這樣訓練會被處分處罰"},{"start":13266.824,"end":13289.21,"text":"講的是都要上訓練可是我的意思說到時候他選項只選某兩類沒有 我現在只強調交通因為交通以外送源現在交通的風險雖然有下降可是他還事實上是一個比較使用機車那我認為他每一年都應該要上交通的相關課程因為我們道路環境事實上是有些變化甚至他"},{"start":13291.731,"end":13315.964,"text":"對違規當然你會去強化可是我覺得這一塊你這樣的寫法我擔心事實上是不會一定會去上這一個課程那這樣跟委員報告我們可不可以未來在說明欄裡面去明確再寫就是三項的領域的課程每一年都有都必須要上具體時數呢當然就交我們後面就來做一個公告"},{"start":13316.804,"end":13336.014,"text":"也就是說我們在說明欄確定再把它寫一遍就是說有外送平台應該針對不管是新進的或者是已經在職的外送員每一年都必須要我們都必須上這三種類型的課程然後具體的時數由三個部會來各自明定我們在說明欄把它再把它寫清楚一點"},{"start":13337.447,"end":13363.013,"text":"那你說明然是不是還是要我比較關切的那個交通這一塊能夠保障在比如你講一定半小時也是上課一小時也是上課那前面剛加入的時候新加入的時候有提到可是後邊的話我不知道到時候會不會有些這樣的選項之後最後還是會造成比較偏頗我比較擔心那我只比較真的是強調交通這一塊"},{"start":13364.847,"end":13391.162,"text":"我想發問一下這個講的這個講習你們是監理站做的講習還是平台辦的講習因為如果平台的講習課程安排沒有很頻繁那等於是新加入的外送員他們必須要一直等候他這個開課的時間他才可以他才可以從事這個職業是監理站的嗎請交通部謝謝"},{"start":13392.894,"end":13413.656,"text":"好 請交通部好 謝謝委員的詮詢那我跟委員做一個報告那這個是指業者去做的一個教育訓練那建立站或者是做建立所的是就是說應該是違反那個大陸交通安全這個處罰條例裡面相關的一個授訓的一個課程所以這兩個是不一樣的事情以上說明"},{"start":13420.14,"end":13449.254,"text":"我們在說明欄我們在說明欄把它再具體一下就我們一定是三個都有上那我們在說明欄再把它再強化一點說明一下好 請問還有沒有委員的意見然後請這一塊未來就是說因為我們在外送員有時候搶單搶快所以未來在那個無論是在教育訓練也好或者相關違規我覺得那個規範還有那個指引守則可以規範得更清楚"},{"start":13450.614,"end":13471.239,"text":"這個是一點那除此之外在剛才21條我簡單的做一下補充平台對於職災的通報的部分我覺得應該更明確化更明確化來去做要求而且在時間點萬一如果有發生嚴重的傷害或死亡的部分我覺得也應該在限期之內一定的時間當然到底是"},{"start":13472.839,"end":13499.944,"text":"一天內 三天內或一個禮拜之內因為後面可能還會牽扯到後面的一些相關的法律的責任等等所以我覺得還沒有還有一些刑事跟民事的責任所以這一塊部分我們可不可以有一個時間點的要求跟限制平台應該要有更多通報的義務跟相關的要求在裡面那至於就是說應該怎麼明確化我沒有意見但是我希望在這一塊可以寫得更清楚"},{"start":13501.744,"end":13512.588,"text":"包括後面因為有交通事故重度或中度的傷害必須住院治療的時候這一點也要去做一些通報在一定的時間之內好以上謝謝好謝謝林燕雪委員"},{"start":13519.727,"end":13533.439,"text":"請勞動部回應一下謝謝委員的提醒我們第21條就是明訂要在8小時之內通報所以我們也理解這個通報是非常非常重要所以我們有明訂在裡面謝謝委員請林淵晴委員發言"},{"start":13541.285,"end":13565.442,"text":"想請老師說明一下就未來訂這個會甚至失之這些都考慮進去嗎因為過往我們看到會是有時候就是平台內部自己的人去講一講尤其大家都覺得我自己非常懂交通或者是我非常懂那個衛生安全那所以我不知道這搭配的你你現在這邊寫的說你們會訂定一些時數"},{"start":13566.843,"end":13592.391,"text":"然後確保外送員的品質可是重點是我們想知道是整個師資時數到課程內涵否則我們以前在去看地方政府在執行的時候也很常是有些師資的師資根本不符合他要上的課程的內容的這樣的一個師資那講授的通常都也不會符合應該要聽課的人的需求"},{"start":13594.369,"end":13614.214,"text":"主席 謝謝林委員那我們想說第二十二條的第三項未來我們在實數內容這個部分我想內容這個部分就是我們也認為就是師資或者上課的主題是什麼我們在裡面來做訂定可不可以再加一個頓號 加師資"},{"start":13626.829,"end":13628.63,"text":"請行政部門回應因為坦白講私知是自為關鍵否則的話那個課上起來就是沒有沒有特別意義是還是希望委員可以給我們在一定的彈性然後因為那個鄉村"},{"start":13658.163,"end":13678.903,"text":"是那個交通部做一個說明那我想我們這個交通安全的實施事實上都有一定的一個規範那因為這個第22條裡面是有包含有包含這個職業安全衛生以及那個食品安全衛生所以建議是不是在第二項裡面就是由分別各個主管機關去分別定職以上請臨約請委員"},{"start":13683.413,"end":13712.195,"text":"困難是什麼因為我覺得加一個師資事實上是確保真的也符合你們在說明欄講的就是說那個品質否則的話這樣子的一個如果拼不對人的話那基本上也沒有辦法幫助現場因為過去我們在看交通部載入老師的訓練裡面也會有這種狀況所以我們還是很希望說那個師資事實上是要被要求的"},{"start":13716.778,"end":13745.318,"text":"那個因為這邊有三項我們確認一下衛福部那就加獅子OK好加獅子好了謝謝頓豪後面獅子好所以這是改的內容嗎請問還有沒有意見對那提醒我剛剛講後面說明來還是要把我們剛剛期待的說清楚好謝謝謝謝委員好那請那個司長是不是也念一次"},{"start":13749.682,"end":13766.889,"text":"第22條的第3項前2項教育訓練制一定時數內容施肢等有關事項有中央主管機關交通主管機關及衛生福利主管機關分別定制以上好那各位委員還有沒有意見"},{"start":13768.26,"end":13780.571,"text":"如果沒有的話那本條呢就照就這個依照劉建國委員的提案然後各位還有那個林月琴委員的修正動議然後仲裁各位委員的意見修正通過接下來進到23條"},{"start":13789.141,"end":13805.04,"text":"第二十三條我們主要就是明定如果外送員在提供外送服務的時候因為違反交通主管決定有重大影響交通安全的行為的時候那外送平台業者應該依通知改善期內完成實施外送員的運送安全講習"},{"start":13806.241,"end":13833.862,"text":"如果在完成講習之前的外送平台不得使其提供外送服務主要的目的我們就是希望外送員因為有重大的違規他應該來上這樣一個課保障他的安全保障擁護人的安全所以我們就明定這個條文那部分委員有提到是說直接訂幾個月內完成或幾個小時那我們是擔心這個小時時數又是太固定了未來會沒有彈性"},{"start":13834.702,"end":13848.772,"text":"還有幾個月內我覺得也怕是比較未來沒有辦法做一個彈性的調整所以這個部分我們是不是就不要在這裡定明確的時數還有定明確的那個日期以上說明好請問還有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":13863.018,"end":13882.906,"text":"如果委員們沒有意見的話那這條就依照勞動部版本也就是劉建國委員的第23條的提案通過接下來進入第四章第四章的章名發責"},{"start":13886.647,"end":13913.297,"text":"有關於委員廖偉祥二十人提案第六章罰則那跟委員劉建國第16條16人提案第四章罰則那我們因為我們現在進到第四章了所以意思一樣可能就我們用第四章好那有沒有委員有意見沒有那就依照依照勞動部版本劉建國委員的提案通過"},{"start":13917.062,"end":13941.663,"text":"接下來第24條有關於 主席各位 有關法則的部分我這裡來做個說明 關於審查民眾黨團第18條等案 建議與紅委員等21人提案第24條 第23條等案並同審查 以上建議請示委員是否同意"},{"start":13946.599,"end":13948.971,"text":"哪個是三角"},{"start":13955.578,"end":13977.378,"text":"我再念一遍因為我們的罰則那因為我們的立法院裡面的排案的順序我們翻開第115頁然後從那邊開始就是有關於罰則的部分那我們就要來並同來審罰則的部分所以我們這裡有一個部分要先確認就是有關於審查民眾黨團第18條等案"},{"start":13979.86,"end":14004.594,"text":"建議與航空委員就航空委員等21年提案的第24條第23條等案並同審查因為都是罰則我們是不是就直接把它併在一起審查就是也就是現在劉建國委員的24條和25條那因為其他委員還有另外分別提不同的條次那我們就一起併在一起審查那就請24條先請那個司長先說明一下"},{"start":14006.935,"end":14025.344,"text":"主席各位我們這次在設計罰則的時候我們有兩個思考第一個思考我們是認為要一案一罰我們先說明一下因為每一個衛送員所遇到的違反的情形或許是一樣但是每一位是個獨立的裁罰的一個"},{"start":14026.484,"end":14052.016,"text":"對象所以是一案一法第二個我們在裁罰上有包括中央主管機關有包括地方政府所以我們都有分別的去名列那我簡單的說明一下我們的處罰的跟處罰的罰則第一個直轄市跟縣市主管機關的部分是處罰第11條的離線權跟第15條在天然災害因停業結果他還是讓他營業這個部分的罰則我們是定10萬到50萬"},{"start":14053.937,"end":14081.133,"text":"第二個部分交通部的地方呢就是由二三條外送員為完成道路交通安全講習結果呢平台還是讓他去做外送服務好這部分是裁罰10到50萬然後第三個就是本部勞動部跟自家縣市政府裁罰呢是主要是21條沒有在期間內通報重大職災實施事故調查分析及做成記錄的規定這部分我們裁罰是3萬到30萬"},{"start":14083.354,"end":14107.272,"text":"那此外主管機關或目的事業主管機關包括我們跟地方政府可以裁罰包括第一個未送平台業者拒絕妨礙主管機關監督檢查跟調閱紀錄這個我們罰3萬到15萬那另外第5條第2項到第5項有關於報酬過低未給付報酬明細及項目內容未符合法令要求未保存"},{"start":14108.493,"end":14135.635,"text":"達到我們要求的年限的5年的時候會罰2萬到10萬那第8條第3項沒有發給外送人經濟補償第9條沒有建立申訴制度沒有公開揭示沒有成立獨立的處理小組然後沒有召開定期召開會議或小組成員未符合規定的部分我們是都罰2萬到10萬此外第10條沒有投保商業保險就讓外送人提供外送服務"},{"start":14136.636,"end":14157.375,"text":"而且你沒有隨便把它停保我們也是處罰2萬到10萬那此外包括第4條第5項契約成立期日內為給外送員的收值的一個契約職災保險的一個保險契約要給他提供對方然後契約成立期日內沒有給合作商家外送合作契約的收值聯"},{"start":14158.456,"end":14176.618,"text":"然後此外18 19 20有關消費者的紀錄保存合作上下紀錄保證外送員的其他紀錄保存這些我們有個叫通知改善的一個設計然後呢如果他還是不改善我們處罰2萬到10萬那此外22條第1項第2項有關於外送員的訓練他沒有讓他上課跟訓練"},{"start":14177.859,"end":14202.945,"text":"這時候如果通知改善沒有的話一樣罰2萬到10萬那此外還有外送員的新進的慈安因為慈安我們這有特別的慈安法有明訂所以我們這個部分就是罰這個3萬到30萬以上說明請問有沒有委員有意見請問各位委員有沒有意見第5條我們修正我們來念一下那個這個這個"},{"start":14204.458,"end":14222.655,"text":"跟主席報告我們因為前面條子有變了所以我們有幾個文字稍微再修正一下就是其中的第5條的第1項跟第3項就我們要做個修正有沒有就有嗎"},{"start":14277.91,"end":14293.253,"text":"好那這個司長要不要再念一次有關於再往上一點先讓我念一下有關第24條的修正來我問一下"},{"start":14296.421,"end":14313.829,"text":"再來就是有關違反第22條違反第5條第1項跟第3項至第5項第8條第3項第9條或第10條的規定我們把今天剛剛前面針對報酬部分做那個對照的調整以上說明好請問委員有沒有意見"},{"start":14319.639,"end":14333.742,"text":"那個我問一下就是針對那個業者如果規避你們的那個檢查這一項你們這個調到那邊是處罰那個3萬到15萬3萬到30萬拒絕妨礙沒有拒絕3萬到15萬拒絕跟妨礙主管機關問題上監督3萬到15萬這一項有沒有按次連續處罰"},{"start":14347.847,"end":14372.767,"text":"就是他如果一再拒絕你們有沒有按次連續處罰沒有 你們沒有這樣寫我們通常要去看他不給我 我罰了我下次再去一次他又再拒絕我 我再罰都沒有 這個我們都可以繼續我不可能今天我跟你要你不理我 我就不去找你了我知道 就是有的法條會寫得比較你知道嗎 就是說"},{"start":14374.148,"end":14395.917,"text":"如果你很重視這一條的話得按次連續處罰或加重處罰你知道就是也讓業者知道說主管機關你這個就是不得拒絕因為坦白講你的那個罰的金額也不是很高對於他的高業營業來講其實有一點如果你只是罰了三萬不痛不癢"},{"start":14396.917,"end":14418.545,"text":"你可能在那邊耗很久他不教不給看就是不這樣子我不知道你們有沒有考慮過這樣的情況主席跟委員說明一下那個就是在我們特別在第25條有個叫名譽法我們除了是要公佈名稱跟負責人姓名跟處罰的相關的規範之外我們這裡有特別明定限期令期改善 屆期會改善 按次處罰25條對25條對25條"},{"start":14426.667,"end":14430.08,"text":"好 那還有沒有委員的意見"},{"start":14439.967,"end":14462.795,"text":"主席剛剛那個前面第9條是保留的所以這邊他那個這邊提到第9條或第10條規定這邊可能要稍微保留一下連動前面第9條因為還沒有訂那個內容還沒有訂剛剛是說申訴制度剛剛其實那個小組的部分因為後來勞動部要加平台業者那早上有蠻多討論的後來是喊"},{"start":14465.694,"end":14483.418,"text":"和保留所以如果前面有保留這邊不能過就是要先緩一下那所以這條先保留24條先保留然後等一下第二輪回來討論把第9條理完之後再回來好不好好主席不好意思"},{"start":14488.15,"end":14499.14,"text":"請羅廷文委員發言因為討論到第9條現在在保留那剛剛也有跟經濟部再次提醒14條的部分是有關於店家被惡意的抽成"},{"start":14499.881,"end":14518.42,"text":"那經濟部剛剛我也有附帶決議就是希望說他在這個訂定契約的時候呢範本的時候要保障這個不要被大勢的剝奪抽成然後還有這個部分有被納入到罰則嗎因為我看到只有14條之二劉建國的版本是14"},{"start":14529.819,"end":14543.429,"text":"違反第14條第三項這部分會不會有不夠完善經濟部經濟部回應經濟部報告"},{"start":14549.324,"end":14575.339,"text":"回應羅委員第14條第三項指的是他應該在7日內將書面或電子契約給商家合作商家收值那剛剛提到的這個抽成的這個金額他是會定在契約範本裡面那契約範本剛剛有提到如果平台有違反契約內容比如說他收費或任意調動金額的話"},{"start":14578.061,"end":14605.395,"text":"後續會有一個設計爭議處理機制會透過爭議處理機制來解決 以上補充因為爭議處理機制有沒有法法則也會定在那邊嗎還是只是機制而已那抽完成然後爭議處理機制萬一他不改善他如果爭議處理機制他違反那個契約那就是契約就"},{"start":14609.461,"end":14632.177,"text":"我知道有機制就是說機制完以後他如果不改善抽成還是繼續抽那那個合約就會無效合約然後就變成要打民事就是走合約沒有履行就走合約的爭議處理了"},{"start":14633.089,"end":14639.538,"text":"就是沒有罰則店家我一個便當店去打民事訴訟會不會有點辛苦"},{"start":14641.339,"end":14668.356,"text":"雙方他是落在合約文字裡面去規範那每一個店家跟平台他合作的他內容都不一樣抽成的比例他的那個費用的計算支付的方式就是說如果你現在只有說7日內要提供電子或書面的契約對 你只有說你要提供啊但是你並沒有跟他講說你不照處理機制小組最後的決議來處理的話你會怎麼樣啊"},{"start":14669.249,"end":14697.169,"text":"那這樣是不是這裡就不夠完善這意思應該行政機關可以罰還嗎可是你沒有定罰錢啊有啊上面行政主管機關處新台幣兩萬這個沒有他是第三項第三項是你7日內要繳交資料你不繳交資料我就罰你錢可是他並沒有說你7日內要改善啊啊你如果不照處理機制小組改善的話我要罰折啊那這樣等於是我可以"},{"start":14703.255,"end":14722.047,"text":"是不是把他也納入會比較好那個主席我也支持因為我們也常收到這樣的呈現因為平台他非常的有限很容易就講好然後對那些個別的店家非常的不利行政部門是不是也把這個文字加上去還是你們說明一下第三條嘛對不對"},{"start":14728.096,"end":14731.227,"text":"反正我都以劉建國委員的版本就是上面這個上面這裡"},{"start":14735.342,"end":14762.5,"text":"那是不是先保留讓那個經濟部去研究一下這是24條嘛對不對對所以剛剛有說24條先保留了對但是你這個問題先提出來請你們等一下第二輪回來的時候是不是提出修正的或是說明我們確認一下裁罰的那個好沒問題那因為剛剛有說24條因為前面的還有保留的條文所以24條現在就先保留等一下第二輪回來討論接下來25條"},{"start":14765.357,"end":14788.813,"text":"主席各位委員25條主要就是我們要公佈違法的姓名那包括負責人姓名跟處分日期跟罰款金額等等而且我們有限期定期改善 屆期會改善我們就會按次連續處罰好好 針對這一條25條有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":14792.383,"end":14806.698,"text":"沒有意見沒有意見的話那就按照勞動部的版本也就是劉建國委員等16人提案通過再來是第5張的張明第5張張明請勞動部說明我們就對"},{"start":14821.218,"end":14844.929,"text":"有關於負責的部分第5張負責我們就建議採劉建國委員等事論提案增訂一個第5張負責那針對其他的幾個條文予以明定好有沒有委員有意見沒有好那就那就照提案通過接下來第26條"},{"start":14847.322,"end":14867.06,"text":"主席各位議員第二十條我們主要明定是考量到說如果外送平台業者把外送服務委託於第三人譬如說委託給一個物流公司然後再用他物流公司跟外送員成立外送服務契約那這個情形之下好這個法我們就擔心可能沒有辦法對他有做過一個"},{"start":14868.061,"end":14895.033,"text":"保護跟保障所以呢我們這裡就明定如果他是委託第三人他其實還是適用本法針對那個相關第三人的規定權限我們都還是要給他做個明文的規範那他就沒有辦法去用委託第三人的方式去規定規避本法那前上第三人與外中員如果是雇用關係當然還是回到我們第一條規定去辦理以上好有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":14898.442,"end":14908.913,"text":"好如果各位委員沒有意見的話那本條就照勞動部版本委員劉建國等16人的第26條提案通過再來第27條"},{"start":14911.683,"end":14927.78,"text":"主席各位27條是我們本法要讓更周延不好意思還有中間還有個第7章的負責就是本席的第7章的章名主席跟各位報告我們前面把負責已經放在前面了所以這個地方"},{"start":14929.221,"end":14954.34,"text":"那沒有問題那就不予採納接下來是第27條是主席跟委員第27條主要是為了本法能夠順利實施好那我們希望有定個細則讓這個細則做比較詳細的規範所以在27條我們明定中央機關會商中央目的事業主管機關來定有關的這個有不這個法的事情細則以上好請問有沒有委員的意見沒有沒有"},{"start":14957.025,"end":14977.484,"text":"沒有好那就照案通過照這個勞動部版本以及劉建國委員等16人提案通過接下來最後一條28條主席各位第28條我們是考量這個要有一段時間來籌備相關的執法跟細則所以我們希望在公佈後6個月內來實施以上"},{"start":14980.21,"end":15002.544,"text":"來請王一鳴委員這部法這個大家也很期待了那你們還要在六個月有需要這麼緩慢嗎事實上我們剛母法通過的需要執法的沒那麼多有哪幾條沒有喔有嗎很多嗎委員說明一下第一個細則我們有很多東西要做一個詳細的規範"},{"start":15007.762,"end":15026.509,"text":"那第二個我們也考量到你現在的指引跟各縣市已經通過的都沒有嗎不是不夠都不夠我們總共我把執法念一下有好幾個部會的定型化契約印記載不印記載事項還有我們的那個契約範本"},{"start":15027.589,"end":15041.886,"text":"那還包括我們團顯相關的一些規範然後還有合作商家的契約等等還有我們訓練的時數最重要還有細則還有一點要跟委員報告目前平台他們計算報酬的方式跟我們現在規定的是不一樣"},{"start":15042.927,"end":15062.437,"text":"他這套程序的要去改變這樣的一個設計的程式還要做很多的測試因為你在上路的不能讓他外送員用這個計算方式產生很大的衝突那他必須從頭設計一套符合我們法律規定的報酬計算方式"},{"start":15063.237,"end":15081.172,"text":"那個需要一段很長的時間的測試那要有安全性不就1.25倍基本45嗎因為我們對他們現在是用里程我們現在是改成用時間而且我們還有一個保底然後這個部分我們恐怕要給他一點時間周延的來去規劃"},{"start":15082.914,"end":15103.887,"text":"一定要讓商務完全都沒有問題因為他還要測試可能在鄉村在都市你都要去做很多的測試才能夠比較明確所以讓我們有半年時間去做一些調試跟處理所以你們最快就是一定要六個月一定要六個月才整個作業都可以完整我們要讓完整正式商務都能夠都穩定"},{"start":15110.774,"end":15119.302,"text":"所以什麼時候大概如果要6個月的話有沒有可能本席想請教一下有沒有可能是2026年的5月1號剛好這個勞動節有沒有可能那個跟"},{"start":15128.516,"end":15146.088,"text":"跟委員說明這是真的是一部新的法它並不是部分條文修正或者是單一條文修正它是一部新的法所以很多相關的細則執法包括系統都需要重新訂定我們的確認為其實"},{"start":15150.151,"end":15177.927,"text":"大家的利益良善然後其實真的給相關的準備多一點的空間更細緻不要倉促其實我們覺得反而更好因為這真的是一部這麼大的新的法規所以我們還是希望有六個月的時間好請問有沒有委員有其他的意見好沒有的話那就本條依照勞動部的版本和意見跟這個委員劉建國等16人的提案通過"},{"start":15179.79,"end":15201.937,"text":"好那現在已經走完第一輪了那第二輪剩下幾條一個題目然後一個酒你們要各位要休息一下嗎行政部門也是也是蠻辛苦的那我們休息10分鐘好不好然後那個便當可以發去邊吃了那等一下邊討論可以邊吃"},{"start":15208.49,"end":15209.471,"text":"5條跟附帶決議 剩5條和附帶決議"},{"start":15236.817,"end":15236.937,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":15260.823,"end":15264.185,"text":"但現在平台就很強勢平台就很強勢了"},{"start":15269.395,"end":15270.776,"text":"就完全沒有談判的空間"},{"start":15296.058,"end":15299.38,"text":"你也可以不要跟他簽約但事務上變成是有簽約的"},{"start":15326.858,"end":15353.253,"text":"因為他們有點大鯨魚跟小蝦米所以當大鯨魚要跟你談判的跟小蝦米完全沒有任何去談判的空間你只能簽一下不平等條 懂我意思嗎就是說當他 他是含淚去簽因為如果沒有這樣他也很難生存但是他簽了約之後他又是要有點帶培訓被剝削了他才可以處理這件事情的話他就會被剝削嘛 那反正我們的監獄"},{"start":15356.393,"end":15382.331,"text":"應該在上面寫說平台若有違約之情勢不予行我要罰我沒有去看到內容可以罰怎麼樣但是你會去騙人你不可以有虛偽啊或者是片面改啊導致違約若有違約之情勢不改進我來罰"},{"start":15384.212,"end":15402.928,"text":"就是諸外機關可能還是要扮演適度的維護某種的公平正某種公平角色你不是介入很多細節但是如果他有違反情勢嚴重的就是有點像剛剛條文有些不是會說他不能規避檢查或什麼嗎"},{"start":15403.709,"end":15410.793,"text":"那在你們處理平台跟商家的範本裡面若有什麼什麼情況 主管機關的明確違約之情況對"},{"start":15426.961,"end":15438.336,"text":"你今天沒有這麼盡量掛勢就是剛剛這很關鍵就是剛剛我們提到就是平台要負擔什麼樣的違約它違約它對商家要負擔什麼樣的對相對應的發財或怎麼樣那他們有的爭議"},{"start":15444.224,"end":15459.371,"text":"商家就可以拿著這一本文章司法的稿件來請求有司法去判斷因為我們經濟部在這個過程等待的過程多應該等待的過程應該要求最好這樣的話應該等那個過程當中應該要求維持原期不能維持"},{"start":15464.753,"end":15472.118,"text":"你當中要維持原契約啊保證商家還可以繼續透過平台添單有點像他跟外送的關係你不得任意去終止"},{"start":15495.814,"end":15510.294,"text":"當然我還是最希望你能夠直接的去裁罰這個是最直接的保護裁罰罰金是給政府的 又不是對合作商家沒有幫忙我知道我知道 但他因為怕被裁罰嘛那他就會有一點惡俗說好 那我不要這樣管"},{"start":15511.684,"end":15532.243,"text":"然後他在告你真的我今天我是留眠我去告他是靠我的名列損失然後我去告回來那個是要靠我去告回來的不能靠你可是你應該是介入的是他一直不斷的騙面然後有點食物上的上對下然後委約的部分你要去採訪他搜尋一些"},{"start":15534.446,"end":15545.057,"text":"就是你的行政權也要給他們就是違反行為的時候要有點壓力不能是覺得說好像不關政府的事這個是純私人其實沒有到這樣今天為什麼要特別訂這個法院"},{"start":15598.62,"end":15601.797,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨洁"},{"start":16135.316,"end":16147.241,"text":"不知道我在現場我在現場"},{"start":16158.427,"end":16183.117,"text":"OK 當您繼續保留後再討論但勞動部不同意就要保留 勞動部會不同意就要保留就保留後再討論就保留後再討論"},{"start":16195.978,"end":16213.545,"text":"還有不到五秒鐘"},{"start":16252.659,"end":16252.679,"text":"好繼續開會"},{"start":16257.119,"end":16283.455,"text":"那現在回來處理第二輪喔這個保留條文現在是從名稱開始法案名稱來一樣就是回到法案名稱的討論喔那以現在勞動部的部板他是以外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法為名稱"},{"start":16285.632,"end":16312.081,"text":"那本席提的是外送平台管理暨從業人員及合作商家權益保障法那這個請各位委員是不是勞動部還需要再說明一次嗎應該可能有委員不在你們再講一次好了好不好不是我說昨天審明稱的時候了那就那就看有沒有意見了"},{"start":16313.869,"end":16329.505,"text":"第一个是我们还是是希望可以把外送人的权益摆在前面那在委员的版本里面基本上会写外送从业人员但我们觉得外送从业人员范围含害的更广包括平台的行政的人员包括"},{"start":16330.787,"end":16345.664,"text":"這個很多我們認為都不是很適合所以還是希望是外送人權益保障可能放在前面然後外送平台管理放後面所以我們還是希望這個法案的名稱用現在的這個名稱那希望委員可以支持"},{"start":16347.444,"end":16368.304,"text":"這裡我稍微說明一下這個本席覺得從業人員可以改成外送員可是譬如說外送平台管理及外送員及合作商家權益保障法我覺得還是一樣就是說我的概念上也跟勞動部溝通概念上就是的確這個法是跨各個部會"},{"start":16370.16,"end":16389.696,"text":"消費者的問題是因為消費者消積法而且目前的狀況是說目前狀況是說當初我們在公聽會的時候勞動部也說也知道也說過說在整個關係鏈裡面可能這個消費者算是比較稍微強勢的一方相對來講就是在整個關係鏈裡好那但是"},{"start":16390.851,"end":16400.857,"text":"我覺得大家可以討論啦也請您看各位委員的意見請召委就直接就你的議題問一下大家有沒有意見我們有意見我們有意見他們有意見請勞動部說明對"},{"start":16406.505,"end":16423.446,"text":"因为就像在版本里面有一个外送平台管理的这个专章其实消费者很多包消费者平台的也是在这个范畴里面所以我们认为我们还是希望是用外送员权益保障及外送平台管理法"},{"start":16426.888,"end":16451.844,"text":"主席我可不可以再報告一下因為這個法真正的跟商家的條文就有兩條一個就是要訂定相關的權利義務的契約範本一個就是後面要保存那我們就有點擔心這個法主軸都是在保障外送員那如果把這個放在下面把那個商家放在上面有點有失去一點橫平性"},{"start":16452.864,"end":16471.778,"text":"因為整個法真的沒有很多著墨在商家是尊重市場機制那我怕外界會查閱說那既然是商家的一個保障那裡面的條文比較缺少甚至會覺得說是不是不是很足夠所以我也擔心這件事情"},{"start":16475.621,"end":16491.661,"text":"謝謝主席其實針對我們大家都很清楚就外送員的權益的問題其實就是你外送平台如果管理的好的話他基本上外送員權益就能獲得保障所以我認為外送平台管理法放在前面那進而後面我們當然保障外送員的權益"},{"start":16492.582,"end":16511.439,"text":"這樣子來做的話我覺得才能獲得根本的改善因為我們都很清楚現在的問題其實不是我們想要外送員的權益好就會好如果外送平台這個管理沒辦法做到到位的話其實也做不到所以本身還是支持就是我們這個召委的這個這個法案名稱是廖召委的法案名稱謝謝"},{"start":16516.429,"end":16537.164,"text":"這個部分也是還是重新再講一下就是說也可以請勞動部再思考一下的確法裡面很多是以外送員為權益這個法和這個這個出發點也是因為從有這個外送經濟開始然後有這麼多的外送員開始去推動這個法案沒有錯但是為什麼名稱"},{"start":16538.663,"end":16564.867,"text":"需要納入是因為其實剛剛休息的時間或是在審查的過程中大家也可以看到後面的法條雖然說法條不多但不多的原因是因為現在先用授權的方式因為要講到非常細的情況之下可能會沒有辦法先把這個架構框出來所以當初勞動部的想法是說當然是依外送員的權益開始推動可是裡面有很多你是先用授權的方式出去"},{"start":16565.427,"end":16588.294,"text":"那難保未來會不會有其他的狀況出現或者是其他的條件要出現那之所以要把他們納入進來是因為讓所有的立法機關或是讓這個大家看到這個法的時候就像你們的說明一樣你們要權衡各方的利害關係這也就是為什麼第一昨天在審理的時候王玉民委員說你們的說明講得非常的好"},{"start":16589.074,"end":16612.19,"text":"是因為你們要權衡各方的關係而且我也相信這個勞動部的立場雖然是以這個外送員為一個權衡權益為最優先但是你們在考量的過程當中你們也不斷的在強調你們要各方利益的平衡發展包含甚至你們在申訴管道的時候也都有思考到這些東西那我覺得這個點就是未來你"},{"start":16613.01,"end":16632.922,"text":"在進化在滾動調整這個修法的時候也要去思考的而不會是就是可能只偏重哪一個部分這是本席希望說可不可以讓他涵蓋的範圍或是讓大家思考的方有更廣泛的原因讓大家去權衡這個利益我的建議那也請王玉明委員發言"},{"start":16634.063,"end":16651.031,"text":"對 昨天的討論我特別稱讚這個勞動部你們在第一條的這個立法目的寫得非常好的確我們今天為什麼要討論這部分就是因為是從外送平台產業發展開始的才有外送員"},{"start":16652.051,"end":16672.034,"text":"老實講沒有外送平台這個產業就沒有外送員這個行業所以在這樣的情況底下你是為了管理這個外送平台所以你是因應了外送平台產業的發展你才開始要來橫評外送員消費者合作商家與外送平台業者的各方權利義務關係"},{"start":16673.596,"end":16689.652,"text":"就是你那個主體就是是因為從外送平台這個產業的發展開始起來的你才因此有了這個產業有外送源所以我們要管理的今天坦白講我昨天也講過了就是說如果外送平台管理的好"},{"start":16690.473,"end":16716.451,"text":"那外送員的權益就可以獲得好的保障他的那個邏輯應該是這樣子的外送員不會憑空出來你如果沒有今天這個外送平台的這個產業發展起來也沒有這個行業就是那個什麼先什麼後就是這個可能在邏輯上面我們先前提出來版本的就是這樣的一個邏輯所以就是我們剛剛提了很多法條包括法則什麼"},{"start":16717.051,"end":16742.89,"text":"很多其實坦白講都是針對外送平台他應盡的一些權利義務就是來寫的所以那個主席我建議如果勞動部還是有意見的話我們就保留你再來召開召來寫上好請陳昭智委員發言我是想在場的各位各位委員大家既然都沒有不同意見啊我就想就按照廖教偉的版本通過沒有人不同意見勞動部"},{"start":16748.584,"end":16756.107,"text":"我們還是希望讓外送員的權益保障因為這是有勞動部主管的法規我覺得外送員權利保障這部分應該放在前面所以這個勞動部非常堅持就是沒有辦法調整和溝通我們還是認為這樣比較正確對好那因為在座的委員是同意的"},{"start":16781.8,"end":16798.346,"text":"請問對所以還是要這條還是要保留嗎要保留送協商嗎我建議那就協商吧協商好那這條就保留送協商那接下來第一條"},{"start":16809.777,"end":16830.644,"text":"現在這個第一條就是剛剛昨天也在討論的那第三項就是第三段有加入合作商家和消費者之權益這個勞動部他們沒有意見那現在就是說第一段的紅字的部分是不是請這個各位委員表示意見還有勞動部回應"},{"start":16834.727,"end":16851.175,"text":"這個就是我昨天在強調的我認為這段文字寫得很棒就是說把那個開宗明義第一條就是我們為什麼要訂這個法開宗明義講得非常的清晰所以我很欣賞這段文字我是主張應該要放入請羅廷維委員發言我非常認同這個玉敏委員說的我們都支持這個部分"},{"start":16862.904,"end":16878.087,"text":"是啊是啊好那請問勞動部同不同意這個你們認為這樣的修法有沒有意見我覺得可以就跟著張明一起保留跟著法案名稱一起保留保留要講原因耶"},{"start":16892.641,"end":16919.919,"text":"第一个是那个部长你们自己产出的文字啊就是你们自己的文字你自己保留你要讲个你反对的理由吧不要乱喊好不好跟委员说明第一个我们认为我们原本产出的文字是在第一条的第一箱那是我们产出的文字可是上面现在委员要列的文字我们认为他比较适合放在说明栏里面他还是在但是他在说明栏里面"},{"start":16925.234,"end":16953.525,"text":"對 所以我們認為在條文的文字上面還是以一個比較精煉的然後把開宗明義的把這事情給講清楚對 所以我們是覺得是好 請羅天惠委員發言我尊重那個部長的說法但是這個法條不精煉也不會怎麼樣但我覺得開宗明義的把這件事情說好他說他想精煉一點"},{"start":16955.169,"end":16979.326,"text":"他覺得多三行不精煉那我尊重嘛但是我認為不精煉並不會影響到整部法案而且這個是開宗明義的說讓我們能夠知道是如果你一開始不了解這個法案你一來看第一條就知道原來是因為這樣你就會想要很簡單的馬上進入狀況所以我覺得就是是不是我們節省時間請召委就直接詢問各委員各委員都同意的話是我們就直接通過"},{"start":16985.308,"end":17012.506,"text":"跟各位委員說明就是第一個是比方說我們認為在這個第一條裡面可不可以休息我覺得可以討論一下這個條文但是我們認為原本的第一項其實就能夠涵快我們其實這個法律裡面要做的很多重要的工作就是保障外送員權益管理外送平台維護消費者及合作商家權益基本上這整部法規裡面在做的就是這件事情其實"},{"start":17014.448,"end":17031.226,"text":"請教一下部長就是多了這三行的話會對這一個法對就這三條這三條對請問一下會對於這個把這個第一條會有什麼樣子的影響是不是可以請部長先讓我們知道一下沒有影響"},{"start":17038.993,"end":17067.225,"text":"不是我們那個跟文說明不是反而是這個內容一樣寫在我們的說明欄裡面不然我覺得我們可以來調一下文字好不好頂多昨天你們也有提到說橫屏那兩個字不適宜放在那裡第一個是我覺得我們橫屏然後第二個是我們還是希望能夠讓外送員的保障是放在這個敘述裡面的最前面"},{"start":17073.134,"end":17102.103,"text":"你說你昨天是說橫屏改成維護啦就是讓保護外送員的權益還是放在最前面對啊 也事實證明是平台發展現在有平台發展才會有外送員消費者合作廠商的出現啊我們有說錯嗎還是先有外送員才會有平台的你們秀一下是不是好"},{"start":17103.878,"end":17105.026,"text":"好 你們休息一下 調整一下"},{"start":17109.397,"end":17136.656,"text":"部長我是覺得還是要提醒一下我覺得有些時候可能可以把那個放放大一點看因為我知道你在討論這一條的時候你有提到西班牙歧視法案等等的你說很多地方是以這個歧視為出發但是我本席也要提醒你們你們中間一直講到橫平才是永續發展和產業發展最好的那你提到西班牙歧視法案其實他在後來的結果是不好的他其實導致的後果並沒有是非常"},{"start":17138.097,"end":17161.044,"text":"橫貧的狀況好那其實最終受害的也是外送員的權益在西班牙的歧視法案裡面所以我我是希望勞動部也可以由行政機關你們主管機關我知道那我們也本期也很肯定你們很用心的提出相關的法案但我認為這個思維可以請你們好好思考一下畢竟你們在條文也都說過了所以以上"},{"start":17162.345,"end":17191.341,"text":"希望你們修出來文字大家滿意就通過第9條的部分呢那我們這條就等那個勞動部修正內容那我們先我們先到第9條第9條早上還有爭議的就是後來你們把平台業者也加進來了本來你們就是公會代表至少一人那你們後來又加了一個平台業者你們現在是這一個版本是平台業者拿掉對不對"},{"start":17193.021,"end":17206.955,"text":"好請市長說明主席各位這個條文我們剛剛會議後也在討論那我們也同意委員的建議就是我們把那個平台代表藝人我們就不放進去了"},{"start":17207.679,"end":17233.367,"text":"那但是我們也會在說明欄寫是說業者是正義人當事人的一方啦當然可以練習說明啦對對對對對我們也讓平台業者也理解說他對因為他被申訴方他有他還是有義務要到現場來說明為什麼對對對好這樣的修正很那現在文資修正在哪裡修正好了嗎對他就把平台業者拿掉他找那請請市長再宣讀一次"},{"start":17238.49,"end":17266.293,"text":"我們是最後第二項我們本來是第一項是人數不得低於三人其中公會代表至少一人本來有一句話是有平台業者然後那個地方我們把它刪除了其他的今天上午剛剛有確定了我們就都沒問題好請問各位委員有沒有意見好請羅天惠委員發言最後再提醒就是說平台業者列席說明也要包括當事者列席說明"},{"start":17267.885,"end":17292.433,"text":"這個確定了謝謝好那這條還有沒有委員有意見如果沒有意見的話那本條就依照佈板還有劉建國委員提案那委員王育敏修正動議仲裁各委員意見修正通過好那民眾黨的第6條本來是保留因為他跟第13條一起討論那第13條已經通過所以這裡就不用討論那再來呢"},{"start":17295.131,"end":17322.154,"text":"因為第9條好了所以後面24條的部分就可以如果各位委員我們到24條對請剛剛是玉米委員是因為24條是因為第9條沒有通過嗎現在通過這個部分就完成了現在第二個就是我要再請經濟部說明剛剛我所提到的有關於這一個合作廠商合作店家有被"},{"start":17323.581,"end":17343.669,"text":"片面的更改契約然後還有抽成跟原本所訂定的是不一樣的時候我們該怎麼樣去保障合作店家你們要用什麼樣的方式因為現在只有第14條第三項這個是不繳交資料才會罰那如果片面違約不改善怎麼處理請說"},{"start":17352.266,"end":17368.099,"text":"請經濟部回應好謝謝主席經濟部回應羅委員的提醒有關第14條第三項那個是指經濟部有爭議的時候經濟部要去跟平台調閱資料平台不提供的話經濟部有立場去直接開罰他這個沒有問題"},{"start":17370.101,"end":17386.635,"text":"至於第二項所提到的一些商家跟平台之間的權利義務我們會在未來的合作契約範本裡面經濟部會站在合作商家的角度會盡量去保障合作商家跟平台之間權利義務的關係"},{"start":17388.877,"end":17413.784,"text":"那至於有糾紛發生的時候我們經濟部的立場說因為這是一個商業行為民間的合約我們在文字裡面盡量從商家的角度去思考說他們權益受損的時候平台要負擔的義務責任那定好之後如果爭議發生我們是建議就是循司法的途徑去解決雙方彼此的爭議以上補充"},{"start":17414.665,"end":17438.407,"text":"我們要特別提醒經濟部就是說現在平台業者跟商家的關係有些商家他其實真的是小商家有點大鯨魚跟小蝦米就是他的那個權利是蠻不對等的所以你的契約就很重要你的契約就是要去確保就是在商家的權益部分就是經由這部法營修法通過也授權讓你們去訂定那個契約"},{"start":17439.068,"end":17456.433,"text":"那就是要很確保這個商家的權益不會任意就像之前外送也不會任意被這個平台就是剝削或者是他的任意性很高我想這個契約精神就是要去保障商家的權益所以那個相關的內容你們在研議的時候我希望經濟部"},{"start":17457.373,"end":17485.558,"text":"要多花点时间那如果可以的话可以听取一些商家他们觉得在现行有哪些是相对极度不平等的可以透过契约的方式他可以获得具体保障你们或许可以办一个类似座谈会听一下商家的意见因为反正给你们六个月时间嘛好不好你们现在时间很多谢谢因为我有附带决议所以要再次提醒这个结合玉敏委员所说的我希望你们要至少要邀请工会那工会是小吃工会"},{"start":17486.915,"end":17497.273,"text":"或者是这些小吃工会因为餐饮是最大宗嘛所以你应该要找小吃类工会面类工会这些来座谈以后再来你订出相关的饭本"},{"start":17498.27,"end":17521.185,"text":"來保障他們的權益應該是要顧小店家因為我們再次提醒雖然都是企業對企業民間的一個契約但是已經到達了快接近壟斷的一個地步因為幾乎九成的業者都有去加入這個平台可是這些呢不加入的反而是很奇怪的啊所以他們被迫都要加入也因為外送習慣的"},{"start":17522.566,"end":17540.854,"text":"改變消費模式所以變成Porsche這些人都要加入所以他們都是很弱勢的人所以麻煩你們好 後續在研議契約範本的時候這個經濟部可以遵照辦理沒有問題那也會依照羅遠剛剛的這個附帶決議我們會再邀集相關的工會來做一些研議"},{"start":17542.984,"end":17560.72,"text":"好 請陳昭芝委員發言 我再補充一下剛剛有跟經濟部就是在溝通的時候就是因為現在確實我們面對的是大鯨魚跟小蝦米都不是 目前而且看不出近期內會有這樣的改變所以基本上我們就是說在片面毀約而且很清楚影響權益之下"},{"start":17562.521,"end":17582.235,"text":"那一段時間你說到司法途徑那大概我們小小米永遠告不了那個大平台就這個當中你這個當中要有一個方法去維護這個商家的他的基本的一個權益就是在你們在思考這個不管是執法或細則的時候請你一定要把這個地方這個點放進去"},{"start":17584.386,"end":17599.951,"text":"就是當他片面毀約一直到他能夠他的損失他其實已經開始就是開始損失了那這個過程當中如果很漫長呢預期也不可能會去打贏這場官司啊進入因為承擔不起啊小商家承擔不起"},{"start":17600.956,"end":17628.016,"text":"可以嗎經濟部就是在處理這一道的時候這個觀點一定要放在你們的那個討論原則這一點可以看一下我們也會思考說在爭議訴訟的期間那一樣平台不得任意解約跟外送員的那個是一樣以上如果能夠達到剛剛我想說在你沒有確認你就不能你就是要遵守原來的合約這個精神是最重要的謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":17630.657,"end":17657.842,"text":"好那請問這條還有沒有其他的相關意見若本條文沒有的話那就是照勞動部版本喔那就是依照劉建國委員等16人的提案的修正動議通過的修正通過好現在回到第一條第一條"},{"start":17659.204,"end":17685.189,"text":"第一條主席各位委員那我們第一條有做了一些調整那我們這裡的寫法是這樣這是為保障外送員合作商家與消費者權益及管理外送平台業者並兼顧外送平台產業健全發展特制定本法然後第二項我們特別把外送員合作商家及消費者的權益保障也把它如列在上面"},{"start":17685.929,"end":17702.816,"text":"那也謝謝王玉美委員對我們的那個說明欄的肯定那我們就針對裡面特別有一句話就是兼顧外縱平台產業健全發展這句話我們把它拉到我們現在第一條的裡面的第一項特別把它鎮定在裡面以上說明等於沒改啊"},{"start":17743.545,"end":17746.929,"text":"那個3號還在 他就是把他下面 他沒有採用你的意見啦"},{"start":17756.014,"end":17774.72,"text":"对我们把大家刚看到兼顾外送平台产业发展平台产业的健全发展然后或者是可以再加上一个这个对我们觉得可以把上面有些文字可以放到就是现在的文字里面了对"},{"start":17791.035,"end":17815.107,"text":"保留還是要休息5分鐘溝通一下保留也可以保留保留是不是好那就保留協商嗎確定好那就保留協商有沒有宣告好那現在要處理附帶決議既有6案請一併宣讀第1案"},{"start":17819.608,"end":17841.523,"text":"要求交通部應針對外送產業特殊性於二個月內邀請相關專家學者業者與團體代表共同商議擬定並緊速修訂相關運價準則擬定真實反映機慢車營運成本之基本運價計算公式提案人委員劉建國 連署人委員林月琴 陳昭芝"},{"start":17842.344,"end":17861.845,"text":"第二案要求衛福部勞動部交通部需於三個月內擬拒相關業務推動之獎鼓勵措施供與外送平台業者與外送員以利相關業務之推動提案人委員劉建國連署人委員林月琴陳昭之第三案"},{"start":17863.427,"end":17890.885,"text":"主管機關應會同交通主管機關要求外送平台業者於派單時即應確保運送商品符合道路交通安全相關法規不得派送超過法定限制之商品建立派單安全基準以避免外送員被迫於違規或不安全情況下執行外送服務提升外送服務安全性提案人委員王振旭連署人委員林月琴 劉建國"},{"start":17891.966,"end":17908.612,"text":"第四案基於外送員外送服務長時間處於交通狀態及其受氣候影響之高風險特性外送平台業者與天然災害發生為政府機關未宣布停止上班時因審酌外送服務行經區域危險性"},{"start":17909.692,"end":17926.658,"text":"採取足以保障外送員安全之必要措施提案人委員王正旭連署人委員林月琴 劉建國第五案建請經濟部於訂定契約範本時明確納入保障商家權益之必要規範包括費率透明"},{"start":17927.478,"end":17953.91,"text":"收費不得任意變動資訊揭露與基本爭議處理機制等事項以維持交易公平與市場秩序提案人委員廖偉祥 王育敏陳昭芝 陳金輝 羅廷偉第六案為明確化機關調閱之權限及依據以確保產業法律遵循之義務請勞動部研議於本法實行細則等規範時明定有關機關之定義及調閱範圍"},{"start":17955.311,"end":17982.72,"text":"提案人委員陳金輝王育敏陳昭芝宣讀完畢好請問第一案行政單位有無意見委員有無意見第一案遵照辦理好無異議照案通過請問第二案行政單位有無意見委員有無意見"},{"start":17984.488,"end":18010.246,"text":"老師這邊有文字的修正第二案的部分剛剛我們有跟委員辦公室溝通劉建國委員辦公室溝通我們做文字的修正在倒數第二行原則要求衛福部勞動部交通部需於三個月內與外送平台業者延伸外送員接受上開教育訓練者由業者提供獎勵措施之可行性"},{"start":18012.133,"end":18040.126,"text":"然後後面接著逗號以利相關業務是推動好那請問委員有無意見沒有請問林月琴委員有沒有意見OK好那就依照這個修改的依照行政院的建議那無異議照案通過無異議通過修正嗎修正通過好依照行政院單位的修正通過"},{"start":18041.991,"end":18068.415,"text":"好 那請問第三案行政單位或委員有意見主席 各位委員那第三案的部分原則上這個交通部沒有問題但是我們的建議是第三項就不需要再用出管機關會同直接由交通出管機關來要求平台業者來處理有關於交通安全的相關的法規所以我們建議把第三項的出管機關因會同給他刪除"},{"start":18072.399,"end":18099.014,"text":"請問林月琴委員有沒有意見所以依照行政機關行政單位的意見修正那依照他們的修正通過好再來是請問第四案行政單位有意見委員有意見沒有 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你知道嗎?得手來自六島啦台北市是29億台中市是28億東京市是23億5千萬高雄市是21億台南市是15億1千萬"},{"start":233.002,"end":259.184,"text":"現在這個科技計劃就變成了沒有看就沒有改善的空間了就讓它看過是白色的就放心了再來本席在庭教會再修了一個咪咪阿虎說我不怕小丁了我的車就感應了你聽到沒有就讓它開了咪咪阿虎感應不到"},{"start":261.005,"end":273.951,"text":"這樣又重來 我有幾句話 我現在是說 很多 我們民意代表在地方受到民眾的擔憂 用路人 駕駛人喔 行人也會擔憂 駕駛人也會擔憂你們有針對駕駛人跟行人機關 跟交通安全 跟法款 違反交通機關 做一個通報的綜合並構嗎"},{"start":288.443,"end":305.235,"text":"我跟委員報告 因為科技集團這事剛才說完是地方政府設的啦我們沒辦法去不然這樣我比較會說這個財政收支會分發鄉長一定在說的時候 老總統出來看鄉長一定會說沒有啦 現在地方的財政比較早沒講 現在都比較改善啦齁齁齁 只有這個紅燈一燈都結收了差不多二十億落多喔"},{"start":316.758,"end":342.427,"text":"是因為這樣來改善財政的嗎我相信應該這不是他的本意 他的本意是要讓交通更安全讓行人過路更好所以你認為 交通有更改善 宿舍有更改善如果這樣 人民繼續所有的用戶人 家屬人繼續付出超度數的罰金罰款這樣有健康嗎"},{"start":346.437,"end":349.343,"text":"我老公他不好 兩轉幾壁啦"},{"start":357.176,"end":381.245,"text":"跟委員報告根據那個我們現在罰款的分配辦法就是主要還是過去都是用在那個那個警察的那個操作取締的部分不過這部分我們會在研議說把這個相關的罰款能夠多運用在我們道安的一個設備的改善這個部分後面這是正版啦"},{"start":382.105,"end":397.581,"text":"主席這要強烈要求他們 你這樣下去就變成不健康不平衡的發展嘛法規越開越多嘛 法規越嚴 越收起 還要讓你們喝嘛結果沒有實質的改善到交通的狀況嘛 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"start":2.936,"end":6.125,"text":"謝謝主席 有請交通部武次武次長請"},{"start":12.151,"end":40.953,"text":"委員好我今天跟你談這些有關於這個速限跟這些限速跟速率之間的矛盾的問題在地方上引起相當多的民怨在貴部的這個報告當中一直強調道路安全還有包括交通順暢是你們政策目標其實更需要的是要如何去檢討減少這個民怨也就是說所謂人本交通的落實不是在硬體的部分也不是在管理的部分而是在你在政策擬定的時候你就要這樣思維"},{"start":42.174,"end":65.22,"text":"那或許交通部會認為說這其實很多是屬於下放之後的地方的權責但是如果是所有地方政府都是有類似的情況的話那交通部的責任就很難撇清更何況你們有制定一定的指引而為什麼這指引沒有辦法生效而無法落實那是不是指引本身出現了什麼樣的問題這或許是大家要去共同面對的問題"},{"start":66.44,"end":86.645,"text":"那問題出在哪裡地方政府基本上所有處理到這個線數的部分只要發生A1事故或者是什麼事情他就採取一個最安全的方式以這個線數最低的方式可以達到安全的這一種思維政策思維來進行所謂的交通管理這是第一"},{"start":87.285,"end":110.769,"text":"第二的部分它又可以取得大量的罰款來作為地方政府的地方預算的調度跟運用所以說基本上這根本是站在地方政府的思維而不是站在整個用路人的思維所以沒有在站在用路人思維當中就發生有些一路同一路多數線的這種狀況不斷的產生我覺得對這種狀況的話我想請教武士你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":116.061,"end":142.017,"text":"剛剛講的那個限速的問題我想做這個限速應該是以過去我想這是警政所不過我想他們做這個部分應該主要是考慮到過去你們有提出一個統一的指引喔有提出一個統一的指引喔對 因為統一指引第一個剛剛講的每一個地方的情況不太一樣每一個地方情況不像你們曾經用道路交通這個號誌的指引的設計你們有一個參考指引是交通部所訂定的喔"},{"start":142.697,"end":169.736,"text":"對啊既然是你們電電的部分為什麼這樣講呢就是同一個又大又寬的一個道路當中你因為要左轉的情況底下你擔心左轉你需要速度的應該減速結果你就因為這一個需要減速的部分用一個最低的標準你就降低了整條道路當中你就因為有一個轉彎其實同樣一個可以轉彎的地方你可以設置這個緩坡或者是設置黃燈提醒用路人這樣就可以達到這一個轉彎的這個安全上的顧慮"},{"start":171.237,"end":196.684,"text":"可是因為這個顧慮當中你讓整條路的這個樹線都完全都一樣這就是問題所在啊所以說我說你不要再推給警政署警政署當然我會就教於他們可是這個問題當中這個指引的部分在盜安團體當中又不斷地強調你們缺乏強制性嘛有跟沒有是一樣的嘛那本席就是說你是不是要強化這個整個指引讓指引的功能能夠更加落實"},{"start":197.584,"end":212.678,"text":"這個當然我們可以去強化但是因為指引剛剛提到這是每一個地方的情況不太一樣我很難在指引去做很細節的規範是啦你們有推出18個情境嘛你們有推出你們這個參考指引當中有缺"},{"start":213.399,"end":217.002,"text":"推出18個前進那為什麼這個18個前進還是沒有辦法發生這個效用還是不是單一的縣市的問題而變成一個通案的狀況你們難道沒有一個行政作為可以來進行規範然後落實來減少民怨嗎"},{"start":228.553,"end":250.71,"text":"五次我請市長回答市長請跟委員報告其實那個指引是我們應該是運營所做的那一份指引那個指引原則上是一個大方向的一個規範那確實因為整個道路的樹線要設定他要考量的因素很多我也很認同剛才委員所講到要考量用路人"},{"start":251.471,"end":280.251,"text":"那這用路人也包含行人我特別是記者委員也知道我們行人對吧用路人行人更需要討論檢討是地方政府的心態嘛他動不動就限速啊A1事件的限速然後有轉彎的限速然後限速的話壓低了很低的限速的情況底下這種限速跟速率之間是矛盾的你本來道路的設計的速率還有包括用路人的常態性的一般的常識認為這條路本來就可以開得比較快的情況底下"},{"start":280.911,"end":298.586,"text":"結果你限速不合理就產生這個罰單嘛對不對或者用路人在使用道路堂的心理壓力嘛而產生了民怨嘛我說的是這些問題嘛這根本問題所在你要去面對的是根本問題還有跟地方政府溝通才能達到這個所謂的真正人本交通的政策規劃啊市長"},{"start":299.887,"end":324.359,"text":"跟委員報告現在人本交通的思維特別是WTO跟歐盟不要跟我講那個我現在跟你講這件事情扯到WTO跟歐盟幹什麼因為這人本交通核心理念就是這個樣子我們不能單純從車的角度在看沒有單純車的角度嘛我就說這個用路人也是使用道路的對象嘛不是使用行人的角度而已嘛"},{"start":325.64,"end":331.088,"text":"我就想說這個部分你要思考一下那個主席你再給我一分鐘一下好不好那我想問一下檢證署一下檢證署"},{"start":333.257,"end":358.603,"text":"警政署在今天的這個報告當中的一個羅列的三個事項交通工程改善先行這個就很清楚你們這個調整是對的不然以原來你們的這個整個測速照相為主然後交通工程為輔這個真的要顛倒但是你們現在就要回去檢討一下當初的設置的這些地點當中不是設置 是一種設計我舉一個例子就好"},{"start":359.643,"end":385.183,"text":"預警巴士快速道路 本來書籤是90結果它銜接到一般的道路是70你就在那附近裡頭設計那一支放那一支 那前面又放那一支結果這一支一年的收這個罰款高達多少 高達八千萬還上了新聞也就是說這種設置跟設計根本設計用力不準嘛不是為了交通安全來設置而是為了罰款來設計"},{"start":388.147,"end":402.507,"text":"這應該做一個全面性的檢討啦是好 好不好好麻煩警務員回去檢討一下那麻煩五次一下齁然後還有市長回去檢討一下是不是有加強支援的空間還有跟地方政府溝通心態跟他本位主義OK 謝謝好 我們會確認 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166189","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166189","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ba42ffd062fbea8d21ea7917163476989f4d34277fbf0e24746c55bad50cc4f27aee9c616f299ce85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:08:28 - 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那有請次長好 吳次長請"},{"start":11.331,"end":35.865,"text":"委員好 市長好 那市長本期想要先追蹤有一個目前在交通部還回覆給交通委員會的一個進度就在2024年5月16號的時候本期曾經有針對北市發生一起李姓夫人過馬路時跌倒在斑馬線上那遭到一台貨車還到時候不幸輾過"},{"start":36.886,"end":61.806,"text":"那時候的原因是因為那個標限的防滑係數到最後已經是不合格了所以說本席那時候有在質詢的時候有提到還請就是交通部針對這個防滑係數標限的抗滑係數的部分還在全台灣去做一個重要路段的一個評估"},{"start":62.987,"end":83.863,"text":"並且將一個月內將這個調查結果回覆給交通委員會那在我們辦公室翻找的公文還其實並沒有收到這個相關的這個一個月的回報但沒關係那我最主要是想要了解一下這個部分那時候其實在公務局表示台灣"},{"start":84.864,"end":110.427,"text":"道路標線以交通安全規範的防滑係數是45BPM為標準省道會要求到55BPM那在這個全國的一個重要路段的一個調查那以及在改善的方案那剛好搭配今天的議題那我想說是不是請交通部來回應一下那這個標線對於用路人安全的一個進度跟改善的狀況"},{"start":111.988,"end":115.331,"text":"我原報告就是我們在過去其實有找過地方政府還有六都還有台北還有國度署來討論那目前是定最我們的高快速公路至少標線的跑行速度至少50BPM以上"},{"start":139.489,"end":153.332,"text":"但是市區道路我們有預定是至少在65以上這個是大概108年就有這個函式下去所以說其實地方政府應該都知道說至少現在市區道路的防滑標限至少在65以上"},{"start":154.389,"end":177.607,"text":"那時候請交通部針對各縣市的一個重要路段因為那時候是因為有人死掉啦因為防滑的部分不合格結果到最後他一滑倒還有車子過來碾過那時候是有請交通部這邊針對一個月之內做一下調查那也把這改善的一個方案來回覆就是交通委員會那這個部分都沒有收到任何的一個回覆"},{"start":178.854,"end":206.017,"text":"那這個部分我當然知道啊那各縣市政府那你們跟政府溝通的情況跟調查的情況以及道路的標線的改善的情況到底是進入為何啊那法規的部分我當然清楚啊市長這樣嗎我們再了解一下那個當初的那個回函的內容因為目前來講我們所了解到請你們回覆交通委員會是沒有回覆啊公文也查找過了"},{"start":207.165,"end":229.89,"text":"那所以說我還是要請你們重新再來瞭解好不好因為最主要是因為這是鬧出人命的事啊所以說看是如何改善嘛那先瞭解過之後才知道怎麼改善好不好OK好謝謝那要補充嗎沒有沒有沒有這個我們回去跟他講我們回去瞭解一下然後再跟委員報告好OK謝謝"},{"start":232.298,"end":259.279,"text":"好那接著我還是要請市長就是在目前來講那不是這題了OK那那個目前的話這個三接案那在中華公園工程是百分之百持股的4C工程那這個部分其實我想請教一下交通部4C對於這個三接案交通部的態度還有以及說對於這個部分是不是要做一個說明"},{"start":260.758,"end":276.521,"text":"我想我跟那個委員報告 世襲剛剛講這個問題 現在目前已經進入那個司法程序 我想世襲一定會全力來配合整個的調查這我想毋忘無重的這樣一個原則"},{"start":277.162,"end":303.195,"text":"那在這個整個價格 招標價格的一個提高的過程包括也有 裡面有提到啊就說中友提到說很有錢啊那所以從94億提高到253億那在交通部他是等於是完全投資完全主導的這個4C工程公司那我想問一下交通部對於這裡面整個過程那麼大的一個案子是不是都有相關的掌握"},{"start":305.09,"end":320.507,"text":"這個部分因為他是世襲他去接就是剛才講接受中友的委託他還針對整個預算制作編列這部分我想世襲應該會依照當時的物價這些去考量"},{"start":321.388,"end":344.173,"text":"我相信應該不會有什麼特別問題那至於剛剛講錄音檔這個我們沒有辦法去證實他的真偽好那本席還是要提到因為畢竟是百分之百交通部能夠主導或是就是相關的不管是工程師或是世襲啊那應該相關都能夠是掌握裡面的內容那交通部在裡面的"},{"start":344.873,"end":361.7,"text":"但是勿往勿重啦那還是本席在這裡提到交通部還是對於這一案來講一樣是要持要有的一個角色應該要了解的部分也必須要跟大家社會大眾來做一下說明那同時那本席接著再問在目前來講"},{"start":363.061,"end":380.292,"text":"工程會他們有提到要修改這個政府採購法還三家以上合格廠商投標他這條要刪除才能夠開標限制那在這個中油這案來講針對工程會的政府採購法修正那我也想問一下交通部的態度跟看法"},{"start":381.869,"end":404.64,"text":"如果是工程會做修正當然就配合工程會的相關的規定去辦理所以說交通部會認為說在這個政府採購法修正案草案刪除三家以上合格廠商投標才能開標限制的部分那交通部是持一個支持的態度因為工程會是全國的工程主管機關我想我們就尊重他們"},{"start":406.101,"end":420.549,"text":"好 那本席還是要提到一下因為像是世襲的這個案子跟棕油的這個弊案現在目前來講當然是司法在調查之中那其實在政府採購法的一個修正那其實也會因為這件事情來受到影響跟討論"},{"start":421.79,"end":440.125,"text":"那包括孟凱召委之前也有回應過在新聞上也都有看到對於政府整合法修正的一個擔憂啊那所以我覺得在交通部當然也是問您的看法所以交通部對於工程會的這一個刪除的案子條文來講還是表達是支持我們尊重尊重好OK謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166188","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166188","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ba42ffd062fbea8de2df8744635654ad9f4d34277fbf0e24746c55bad50cc4f27aee9c616f299ce85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:01:27 - 12:08:03","影片長度":"00:06:36","會議時間":"2025-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長、教育部及內政部就「『行人優先交通安全行動綱領』實施兩年來改善『行人地獄』具體成效暨台灣測速照相機密度精準度、速限制度精進檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部部長就「淡江大橋通車活動規劃辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n三、繼續審查(一)委員邱若華等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐富癸等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十六條條文修正草案」案及(四)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；審查(五)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查(一)委員邱若華等20人擬具「大眾捷運法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「大眾捷運法部分條文修正草案」案及(三)委員李昆澤等20人擬具「大眾捷運法第三十九條、第四十三條及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n五、繼續審查(一)委員盧縣一等18人擬具「鐵路法第二十六條及第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(三)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「鐵路法第五十六條之四、第六十七條之三及第六十八條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等25人擬具「鐵路法第五十六條之五條文修正草案」案、(五)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員廖先翔等25人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員張宏陸等18人擬具「鐵路法第六十五條條文修正草案」案及(八)委員洪孟楷等19人擬具「鐵路法第六十八條之四及第七十二條條文修正草案」案；審查(九)委員邱鎮軍等23人擬具「鐵路法增訂第六十八條之四條文草案」案。\n【本次會議開會事由一、二之詢答後，進行法案之逐條審查；開會事由三第(五)案及開會事由五第(九)案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-04","start_time":"2025-12-04T12:01:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-04T12:08:03+08:00","duration":396,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-4-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.71409375,"end":10.392218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.810343750000001,"end":8.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.72534375,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.450968750000001,"end":22.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.778468750000002,"end":23.200343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.70659375,"end":45.509093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.91409375,"end":48.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.17096875,"end":54.064718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.672218750000006,"end":78.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.90471875,"end":81.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.22909375,"end":93.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.16409375,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.40846875000001,"end":95.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.27721875,"end":99.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.06596875000001,"end":102.34409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.52971875,"end":107.62596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.95909375000001,"end":109.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.02159375000001,"end":119.70846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.05034375000001,"end":120.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.09596875000001,"end":128.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.84221875000001,"end":132.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.35596875000002,"end":137.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.69721875000002,"end":145.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.47221875,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.83846875,"end":180.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.11659375000002,"end":184.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.40284375000002,"end":186.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.85409375,"end":187.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.01846875,"end":188.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.62596875,"end":191.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.66784375,"end":199.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.01221875000002,"end":205.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.92284375000003,"end":209.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.96034375000002,"end":212.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.07784375,"end":216.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.62159375000002,"end":219.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.24534375000002,"end":222.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.74721875,"end":226.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.45096875000002,"end":228.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.80534375000002,"end":231.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.87221875,"end":232.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.88909375,"end":232.90596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.90596875000003,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.97346875000002,"end":233.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.05784375000002,"end":233.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.58096875,"end":233.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.49221875,"end":239.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.56721875000002,"end":254.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.02471875000003,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.26409375000003,"end":269.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.13221875,"end":270.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.92534375,"end":270.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委員好 次長好 次長首先針對道路交通安全規則第83條之二修正草案和次長討論並請交通部說明那根據道路交通安全規則第83條之一第七款大型重型動力機械或方向盤飛在左側"},{"start":30.899,"end":53.596,"text":"之重型動力機械應標配標誌還有前導及後衛之車輛隨行自民國115年1月1日起方向盤飛在左側的普通動力機械也必須遵守這個規定但交通部在11月28號預告修正道路交通安全的規則第83條之二你將方向盤飛在左側之普通動力機械的機械像是吊車"},{"start":54.937,"end":80.907,"text":"免前倒車後衛車隨行緩衝期延長十年由原定的民國一百一十五年延到民國一百二十五年所以今天想請次長說明喔因為很多民眾包括我也覺得不解跟誇張以行政程序法重大公共政策通常預告期需要六十天但這次交通部只有給了十四天那請交通部說明為什麼是不是請那個相關主管來說明"},{"start":82.393,"end":107.247,"text":"跟委員報告目前這個法案目前還在預告期間所以現在委員所提的意見因為現在就是收集完以後我們會再一併來做一個通盤的一個檢討所以收集完什麼時候會收集完你們有討論過嗎我們預告14天預告14天是符合法定精神嗎那請也請說明為什麼縮短也請說明縮短理由跟法源依據"},{"start":114.136,"end":136.789,"text":"因為因為這個這個因為這個當時在公告的時候是有急迫性所以我們預告是有什麼樣的急迫性請說明因為主要是在預計在明年要實施所以預計明年要實施所以交通不止給了14天嗎公告期不是至少要60天嗎就是主要是因為考慮到實施的時間"},{"start":137.765,"end":165.195,"text":"那過去已經演了 那為什麼又要再演10年呢這個10年是怎麼樣計算的 是根據什麼樣的 你們有報告嗎因為主要是八成的車輛大概 目前時間大概25年八成的車輛 我們來看這個83條之二修正草案的總說明那現行方向盤 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現在在預告期間那民眾民眾不解的是喔那這個報廢年限近了所以你們再給10年為什麼報廢年限近了你們反而還給10年了你們有沒有顧慮到車子的安全性"},{"start":234.54,"end":239.702,"text":"因為就是維持現在的做法然後就是讓他可以再延長一個使用的期限"},{"start":240.852,"end":268.233,"text":"維持維持現在的做法那吊車大型的吊車在路上他本身就有危險性那你們有沒有去那相信也有民間團體跟你們反映嗎那你們收到是什麼樣的呈現請說明因為這是主要是針對普通的重型機械不是那個特別大型的不是不是特別大型的那普通的重型機械他們是不是有要求說免前導車跟後衛車"},{"start":270.528,"end":290.726,"text":"現在目前就不用現在就不需要前導跟後衛現在就不需要前導跟後衛那你們有沒有進行一個完整的安全風險評估過呢然後也有沒有公開資料公民中來檢視那再來你們有沒有跟所有利害的關係人進行充分的溝通"},{"start":292.056,"end":307.146,"text":"就是因為主要是維持現行的做法那現在就是說如果再延長預告這個期間我們會再持續在那為什麼這一年就是十年你們是根據什麼什麼樣的情況下去做考量為什麼一年就是十年不是五年"},{"start":307.85,"end":333.059,"text":"因為這就是依照過去使用的那個車輛使用的個時間我們在推算大概還可以再用多多久的一個時間是不是有業者跟你們說因為就是快要接近報廢的時間了所以希望可以再延10年所以你們也採納了這個意見那我不懂的是為什麼他都快要報廢了你們還讓他再延10年呢所以今天才向交通部了解"},{"start":340.489,"end":363.736,"text":"主要是他接近報廢那是不是就應該要淘汰為什麼交通部主張報廢那他還可以再跑十年我現在就是要了解這個問題因為主要就是我們沒有你們要怎麼去做你們要怎麼去做去做監理跟管控呢我們現在主要應該說我們沒有要求他強制淘汰就是讓他延長他使用是希望他能夠後續能夠朝向自然淘汰的方式去處理"},{"start":364.591,"end":391.372,"text":"那現在你們有沒有要求就是這些車子要去做驗車動力機械就是沒有所以你們要怎麼確保這些動力機械他是可以安全在路上的呢這種我們回去再考慮到他的整個整個監理事務上怎麼去處理OK因為時間的關係會後請再提供詳細的資料好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166187","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166187","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ba42ffd062fbea8dbc531ac4f279e6839f4d34277fbf0e24746c55bad50cc4f25d0c75dcc8d4630c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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麻煩有請市長跟公路局的局長林局長請委員好市長好 局長好淡江大橋明年五月大家引領期判終於要通車了本來是一件喜事那喜事大家就通力合作好好辦"},{"start":27.655,"end":42.743,"text":"只不過說最近看到媒體上面我們的侯友宜市長跟交通部這邊可能有一些溝通不是那麼順暢的部分就這個部分現在後續還有在進行溝通嗎"},{"start":44.508,"end":70.123,"text":"跟委員報告確實丹江大橋這個國人相當期盼通車之後相關周邊的交通環境也要做配套那所以這一個局裡邊這邊跟新北市已經有成立一個橫向聯繫平台什麼時候成立的在之前八月份這個他們赴密來拜會我的時候就談到這個構想八月的時候才成立平台那已經要是今年八月嗎"},{"start":71.944,"end":96.355,"text":"對對對對那我現在就直接問來來來我看一下我們之前啊之前3月19號的時候交通委員會我們過去淡江大橋考察那一天我們今天的主席孟凱雄我們都有到現場去那一天我就當場提一個問題就是說淡江大橋通車是好事"},{"start":97.834,"end":123.715,"text":"通車便利帶來車流那對於本來淡水交通的衝擊就會造成相當程度的影響所以那一天辦完了考察以後在考察的結論上面我就說了請公路局儘早啟動通車前相關準備工作要跟新北市府等密切聯繫要確保通車後周邊道路的交通運轉順暢"},{"start":125.851,"end":145.238,"text":"因為你那個橋很方便帶來了車流對於本來淡水因為淡水很有歷史嘛有很多道路比較狹窄車一進去一定會對當地的交通產生衝擊嘛我3月考察的時候就跟你們講了結果你們是到8月才成立平台喔"},{"start":145.748,"end":165.334,"text":"跟我們報告一下8月份是把他提高到舉的層級那原來新北新宮處跟我們這個新宮北分局他們平常在共進的這個 沒關係我問具體的問題啦第一個怎麼樣被對既有淡水的交通造成負面的衝擊這件事情相關的規劃做好了嗎"},{"start":166.564,"end":193.353,"text":"這個部分跟新北都有一直在做這個合作包括剛剛委員講的是現在進行是還是完成是現在正在這一個進行因為明年五月是現在進行是是不是是是因為相關的 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主席再歇一分鐘就好 第三件事這個事情其實我去年3月的時候就已經請你們交通部的到我的黨團來開協調會這個國道1號五谷交流道偵測北陸北出閘道的這件事情基本上面我們要改善在那邊會造成擁捨的情況所以跨越了豐江路"},{"start":453.82,"end":475.391,"text":"然後接新五路但問題是什麼問題是說你跨越楓江路接新五路後面還有三個紅綠燈後面還有三個紅綠燈會塞在後面所以我三月的時候去年三月的時候開協調會是希望建議你們是不是有可能下來的時候也可以直接接65"},{"start":476.977,"end":505.334,"text":"然後可以排除掉非常多的車流那時候請你們評估這件事情啊那你們最後的答案好像是說不肯結果辦通車的時候陳明毅議員非常的認真他跑去通車典禮的現場雖然沒有被邀請他跑去通車典禮的現場直接跟卓榮泰講說接下來還有中港西中港南新北大道如果直接這樣下來的話"},{"start":506.986,"end":532.906,"text":"前面豐江路解決了後面三個路口塞爆你如果直接接上去的話往新莊樹林板橋土層到國山根本都不用下地那一天陳明義議員在那邊當場跟卓榮泰院長反映了以後交通部知不知道他反映的這個事情當天的這個影片貼到社群平台上面那個瀏覽處 瀏覽處驚人"},{"start":536.263,"end":558.531,"text":"因為所有在地的居民全部都贊成他的建議全部都贊成全部都贊成他的建議這邊議員說我們去年在立法院就開過協調會跟你們講這個事講了你們也不聽等到開工典禮再去講大家覺得都有道理"},{"start":559.875,"end":575.43,"text":"那最後的結論是什麼最後的結論左翁他還是說要請交通部研議我聽到研議兩個字就有一點怕怕現在是真的有在研議還是現在都已經完工了不可能再改了所以也沒有什麼研議好做是真的會研議嗎"},{"start":577.157,"end":600.016,"text":"過去發生的事情我就不說了你們當初我們開協調會事後回給我書面講的那些事情我都知道現在已經完工了那完工了以後我們接下來要思考的是下一步怎麼辦下一步怎麼辦那因為我看到媒體報導說卓榮泰說要請交通部研議嘛那我就想要知道現在目前研議的進度如何"},{"start":602.296,"end":619.325,"text":"跟政府報告那個五股交流道偵測這個北出的這個可行性研究當初是新北市政府提出來的那因為主要的問題是要跨越風槍路因為當初的那個不好意思主席站起來剛剛我跟你講前面的事情就不用再提"},{"start":620.265,"end":635.966,"text":"如果現在卓榮他也請你們研議我只想知道是不是真的有在研議還是研議完了之前能不能接台六五之前在可行性研究的時候就已經評估過了因為他要新增一個雜道而且用地需要增加比較多"},{"start":636.586,"end":665.686,"text":"所以它會涉及到新北市政府的徵收跟用地的一個取得所以我們大概有跟新北市溝通如果未來他們那個地方的開發的用地取得如果可以的話當然在基礎上面可以再做一個進來只是說當初就是說沒有直接接65的話因為車流的部分北出的話直接是要接台一它的車流比較多我剛剛跟你說啦你們前面那些歷程相關的paper我都看過了不用再複述啦"},{"start":666.446,"end":676.177,"text":"我是想要知道在10月27號完工通車了以後左榮泰承諾會請交通部研議這件事情有做還是沒有做"},{"start":677.351,"end":698.609,"text":"跟委員報告我們有就是說就以前的分析就是說他如果要做這件事情的話涉及到用地的一個取得10月27號完工以後卓榮泰請你們研議你們有做還是沒有做有現在有做嘛沒有關係10月27號以後卓榮泰請交通部研議所有研議曾經開過的會議"},{"start":701.573,"end":726.611,"text":"所有開過的會議以及你們研議的資料會後送到我辦公室來可以嗎可以這樣才講得比較實在一點嗎因為我現在聽你回答的方式我已經高度懷疑是不是真的有研議既然你說有我相信你既然有研議就把12月27不要再拿以前的東西給我12月27號以後你們具體做了什麼研議會後把資料送來可以嗎可以好 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我們還是請市長跟公路局長市長 林局長請委員好謝謝市長跟局長我們有關於人行地域的改善事實上的確是有一些成果還不錯所以首先對交通部表示感謝"},{"start":28.38,"end":53.834,"text":"那就拿我們鳳山來講就是說我們的國泰路旁我們衛武營旁邊那邊那包括中山東路上至街口這個都有很明顯的改善所以這個人民的誇獎之處也帶給交通部謝謝你們的協助那當然後續還有我們光復路捷運西站等等還有很多地方需要再加強"},{"start":55.924,"end":72.323,"text":"有做的部分先改善 先感謝但是就整體的部分市長可以看到上面的高雄市行人安全設施改善30處 完成28處人行道改善1.1公里 已完成0.8公里"},{"start":74.808,"end":99.263,"text":"這個量體太小也就是說速度太慢你可以看到內政部260億交通部140億其實還有很多可以改善的空間包括我們很多學校的人行步道都在學校外面那當然這個經費編到內政部去也著實需要有改善的地方那有很多地方還期待改善"},{"start":100.163,"end":114.618,"text":"所以我是希望說交通部可以要求一下這個速度可以加快這個好的部分好的事情我們就做快一點讓人們會更有感這一個部分希望說交通部可以改善好"},{"start":116.497,"end":137.272,"text":"再來就是說我們的那個交通公園兒童交通公園這個部分我也要求了很多次了從以前我記得張雅琳還沒就職之前我們還去我們鳳山的新墻兒童交通公園那邊去參去那個勘查那"},{"start":140.612,"end":151.768,"text":"我陸陸續續這幾年就是說希望說交通部可以去效法就是像日本的交通公園他那個是非常的擬真你就看左邊的圖就是說他那個非常的擬真"},{"start":152.917,"end":170.86,"text":"那我們現在的新墻交通公園其實是不擬真的啦只是說讓小朋友去做一個學習當然也還不錯但是如果能夠擬真才會更好所以我也要求了很多次那包括112 113 114這個也一直要求交通部要做這樣子的改善"},{"start":172.125,"end":200.676,"text":"那現在也謝謝交通部的確有把我們的意見參考進去所以現在我知道交通部做了好幾個地方了就是用你真的真實道路的情況去讓孩子去覺知道路的危險感知然後或者是行人視角才能夠去讓小朋友將來能夠在交通安全上可以維護得更好那我知道是桃園經理站已經開幕了對不對那鳳山什麼時候開幕"},{"start":202.688,"end":214.035,"text":"各位報告桃園建築站確實已經開始開放做使用那這個高雄區建築所就是那個鳳山那邊目前我印象中進度到11月已經開始已經開始在執行驗收相關的什麼時候驗收完成"},{"start":219.498,"end":242.85,"text":"我在這個跟他們確認一下那後面這個開放使用的部分相關的部分我們在我可不可以要求一下就是競速那就是驗收完畢之後我想這個我已經要求了很久的一個對孩子有幫助的一個建設我希望說能夠儘早讓我們的孩子可以使用"},{"start":243.73,"end":265.099,"text":"那也希望說這個交通部到時候是不是盡快到我們鳳山做一個開幕啟用典禮我們來規劃在這邊正式的再要求一次那再來就是說是不是這裡交通部 交易部有來你們把意見帶回去就好就是說兒童交通交易這個其實要一起"},{"start":266.557,"end":293.138,"text":"一起來做國會不管是戶外教學也好不管是學校正式的交通教育的課程也好希望說交通部能夠跟教育部也彼此聯繫一下從小做起啦對 這個沒問題你看那個日本的小孩過斑馬線都會舉手你知道嗎對你知道台灣的小孩子過斑馬線會不會舉手比較少見是的你知道意思嗎因為他們人小嘛"},{"start":294.249,"end":318.583,"text":"小朋友人小你如果都舉個手至少那個有時候那個視角那個大車的視角至少你增加高度可以增加安全所以像這個部分其實在台灣你可以看小朋友幾乎都有人舉啦但是不多啦那這個是不是應該是交通安全跟教育部一起就是兒童交通教育是不是可以一起做這個希望你們再研究一下好"},{"start":321.261,"end":344.616,"text":"那最後一項這個台86銜接台三線大概幾個禮拜前我有打電話跟局長先反映這個問題這個對我們來講其實相當的重要我想交通是所有的發展之母那也請次長跟相關的單位一起再要求一下比如說我講說我們今天"},{"start":345.882,"end":363.421,"text":"茂林國家風險區今天沒有來那是希望交通部一起做思考這個將來我可以變成整個擴大到大旗美地區甚至我茂林的溫泉跟寶萊的溫泉可以從山上再取溫泉水可以擴大溫泉區"},{"start":365.413,"end":383.04,"text":"就像我們去日本我們去泡溫泉很多台灣人去日本就是泡溫泉那順便逛風景區逛哪裡他可能不見得很在意但是如果說我今天茂林 寶萊這邊我把它擴大變成一個擴大溫泉區然後我把茂林"},{"start":383.96,"end":410.455,"text":"國家風景區擴大到大崎美地區那就包括我的美濃的客家我騎山的老街我內門的動物園這些其實都可以做一個現在要做群體站而不是個別站所以我們在推動觀光的時候我希望說我們那個格局可以放大所以這個都是未來的需要那再來說說我今天國史也接到新威那邊可以到美濃到六龜"},{"start":411.933,"end":424.887,"text":"那今天如果是我台86銜接台3線那包括內門 岐山他們這邊有一個往台南的銜接可以節省20分鐘"},{"start":426.776,"end":454.113,"text":"那這個南高坪生活圈其實我也推動很久了就是說我今天台南高雄屏東我們也做一個群體站的思考這個一個500萬的經濟體正好大家要互動如果有交通的便利他才有辦法把這整個的交通來把它規劃得更好所以其實我到了地方去你包括我們祁山天后宮的馬祖廟的那個主委葉主委啦那包括內門內門我們"},{"start":456.215,"end":464.526,"text":"版德文化也很興盛我們有一個阿隆塞包括我內門的里長、里民事實上我到地方去他們都覺得這個台86這一條"},{"start":467.441,"end":486.963,"text":"真的是如果可以順利連接上對整個南高屏生活圈對整個我大旗美地區包括茂林國家風景區如果可以變成一個溫泉觀光特區將來可以吸引外地人可以吸引外國人變成一個很好的地方所以我們其實那個眼光要看很遠"},{"start":488.204,"end":500.218,"text":"我們要有眼界有創意那現在就行動力非常的重要所以這個台86我不知道目前就是交通部的規劃大概規劃到什麼程度"},{"start":501.629,"end":527.285,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告就是說綜合規劃已經這個處理已經規劃完成那現在就是說環評的部分兩次專案小組也都開完了那我們預計應該是明年1月就可以送這個環評大會那只要環評大會通過之後我們並綜合規劃就可以這個計畫就可以懲罰交通部轉這個行政院來做來做一個合定跟來做一個審查跟這個合定"},{"start":527.705,"end":546.401,"text":"那後面因為後面大概主要有這個工程兩大部分啦一個部分是既有這個道路的一個改善那另外一個部分是這個新批這一個路段的部分那只要建設計畫這一個合併相關工進的部分還有就是細設跟未來工進的部分公務局一定會這個加速辦理"},{"start":547.13,"end":565.189,"text":"好謝謝最後我總結一下就是說為什麼台86這麼重要就是我剛才提到的就是說我們整個溫泉觀光特區將來在我東高雄然後甚至在街上南高屏這整個其實就變成一個南台灣一個非常重要的看起來"},{"start":566.345,"end":583.737,"text":"不起眼但是卻非常的重要那如果能夠把它連上的話事實上未來真的是對整個南高屏尤其是我們大高雄的東高雄其實會有很大很大的幫助所以就是照目前公路局的規劃之外我是希望說速度加快啦"},{"start":584.637,"end":600.906,"text":"就是說你今天環評我看你是明年六月嘛那你今天如果明年一月環評到可以先通過的話那可能再把速度加快我想這個是我們南部人高雄人的需求包括台南屏東人的需求希望可以盡速完成那好不好應該機會很大吧"},{"start":603.922,"end":611.814,"text":"跟委員報告 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為什麼不去動呢還是四七編了360幾億啊我看多少億360億有沒有虛編我也不知道昨天那個三接你看 虛編那麼多我在前面講90幾億變成100多億一下200多億變成300多億你去了解一下好不好"},{"start":470.209,"end":473.837,"text":"現在鄭雲鵬董事長剛上任嘛再清理一下嘛"},{"start":474.926,"end":499.733,"text":"局長 你要做的責任啦是 跟委員報告就是說馬祖大小這個部分基本上已經在這個程序裡面做處理啦對啊 你繞了七年了耶那有些課題現在已經成立推動小組大家跟我們這個全力協助臨江縣政府不是 你要我來推嗎我拿到立法院來三讀一下縣裡面什麼時候完成嗎"},{"start":501.84,"end":528.703,"text":"不好吧我們會在推動小組裡面積極協助這個連江縣政府來克服這些你最起碼 很像這個這個設計的經費你們那裡有吧有基金嘛基金對啊 不要編預算啊我們公務局都要編要編預算好啦 你們沒有中油那麼有錢啊不會開大口講大話你起碼先給我編個幾十億嘛欸 那設計會要兩三年耶"},{"start":530.663,"end":556.09,"text":"你不要以為馬上就可以蓋橋啦還要細設欸細設要兩三年的時間欸各位報告現在馬祖大橋的部分終歸要先這個核定後面才會有建設計畫核定才會依序這個遍列經費做設設我知道 你現在趕快核定嘛你不核定什麼意思啊好不好我第二次推動小組我要強調這個事情喔"},{"start":558.018,"end":581.094,"text":"那審議算怎麼審 我先幫你刪掉二十億你同意嗎建議委員 因為馬祖大廈的部分你們不要搞到這個地步嘛 是不是一定要吵嗎 要鬧嗎好不好 市長我跟委員報告 剛剛提到因為現在已經成立推動小組是由那個局長他親自來主持 我想"},{"start":582.079,"end":608.072,"text":"這部分再 逐一去把相關的問題做給釐清啦那現在已經在... 你下棋要上打嘛 國發會在搞什麼行政院在搞什麼是不是 你要給還不給 你講清楚嘛你刀子一下給他殺下去快嘛 你把我頭砍掉就算了嘛砍掉的話我天天跟你鬧啊 是不是我對你交通部那麼友善幹什麼我有砍過你一毛錢嗎很奇怪耶局長"},{"start":609.011,"end":615.338,"text":"你現在是縣政的局長 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召委我們是不是先請次長來 我次長請"},{"start":9.929,"end":30.962,"text":"好 次長好 今天時間已經很緊迫我先就一個小case來這邊跟您先做個反應那近期有民眾在小綠人號誌燈號閃爍時來起步穿越道路結果被罰員警依照道路交通管理處罰條例第78條 第一項第一款他認為行人不依標誌標線號誌之指示或警察的指揮結果就處罰新台幣500塊"},{"start":33.223,"end":39.808,"text":"那這個就產生一個問題你們的那個號誌的處理規則道路交通標誌標線號誌設置規則207條規定行人行走時綠燈閃爍的時候代表這個綠燈時間不多所以行人要跨越道路禁止"},{"start":55.258,"end":69.712,"text":"這個時候就不能再走那你們覺得這個部分對一般民眾來講直觀嗎那很多人直覺只要小綠燈亮著或他在閃爍都可以過馬路所以在倒數的時候大家是加速通過結果被罰這樣設計您覺得OK嗎"},{"start":72.708,"end":93.691,"text":"我想這是應該可能是宣導不足 剛剛提到剛剛也有人提到這個問題其實我們不太鼓勵在那個那個行人穿越道那邊去做所謂的奔跑或是比較快速的通過因為這樣其實還蠻危險的啦我們希望你不要衝突那他剛剛提醒說已經剩下時間不多我"},{"start":94.332,"end":117.452,"text":"我個人是認為應該要稍微注意一下是否有足夠的指見本席認為你們的這個設計應該多照顧多數人的一個直觀的反應因為你在閃的時候其實某種程度讓大家覺得那應該要趕快來通過結果這樣子被罰本席是認為很不合理那應該在你們的設計上要做一個處理所以本席這邊為這個小小市民來做一個請命"},{"start":118.553,"end":144.9,"text":"好不好那這個部分你們應該就設計跟直觀的層面不要讓大家產生一些模糊結果又依照法規給人家罰了那小市民的這個荷包可能沒辦法容許大家這樣子隨便依法然後就把有點像是嚴罰這樣子好不好好第二件事情本席想請教一下次長我想也請幾位我想這個道安陸鎮道安司觀光署是不是一起上來"},{"start":148.061,"end":163.833,"text":"我們的代表 路政司是司長嗎吳司長還有道安好 那個想請教次長您知不知道什麼叫朝聖之路西班牙那個嘛那您知不知道什麼叫聖雅各路"},{"start":166.355,"end":185.962,"text":"那你要用功一點 本席在去年第一個會期總質詢的時候就提出這個概念在一些委員會本席也一直提出這個概念如果你對朝聖之路的理解是這樣雖然它有一大段的定義是需要再被詮釋的但是你如果理解是這樣 那聖雅各路就等於你所理解的朝聖之路"},{"start":187.834,"end":209.494,"text":"其實本席在講這個概念的時候已經講很多但最重要的提到了一個重要的重點就是整個環島路線的一個連續性跟安全性本席今天不要再跟你講這個宗教或者是性靈方面的這個問題但是最重要的就是說那整個台灣本島的環島線是不是"},{"start":210.074,"end":231.904,"text":"有達到連續性跟安全性的一個標準這是第一個還是本席去年這個所謂台灣聖亞各路福爾摩沙線的概念其實是針對台灣的徒步路網自行車路網的不連續那因為這種不連續而導致一些不安全其實本席這邊有提出一些建議也跟你們指出來"},{"start":233.064,"end":249.217,"text":"那麼第二個部分是很多本島的主要幹道對步行及自行車的友善性不足還有步行自行車本來是綠色運輸主要的核心但是許多路都非常具有高風險那它跟這個高風險的這個動力車"},{"start":254.025,"end":279.788,"text":"跟無動力車沒有有效的分離這個其實你們可不可以去看一下本席的質詢或者是有記錄下來這個東西本席這邊其實都講得很清楚甚至有一些地方沒有自行車道其實就是你們去年在六月份講得好像全國都把它連起來那事實上本席實地的走訪有些地方其實自行車是沒有辦法走的更遑論人走在上面是非常危險的"},{"start":280.549,"end":307.227,"text":"那如果你知道朝聖之路跟聖雅各路大家是怎麼走的你就會知道跟理解這個本席所談的困難是在哪裡好所以其實這風險是很高那你們要談綠色運輸那如果安全跟風險的問題沒有辦法解決的話那你們能怎麼處理呢然後很重要的是你們從去年到今年也沒有跟本席說你們目前的做法是如何本席是從民間了解到你們在外島"},{"start":307.847,"end":335.058,"text":"有仿這樣子的概念在做但是本島本席所提出來的從這個概念上在安全性上來講的路線你們通通都沒有回應過所以截至目前為止本席不知道你們這個部分做到哪裡所以請教部長兩件事第一個針對台11線及穿越原住民的部落山海地區的省道及鄉道交通部你們是不是盤點人車共道的這個路徑然後針對其安全"},{"start":335.718,"end":353.619,"text":"優化做了改善 本期其實去年一直提還有邊坡上的某一些問題 第二你們竟然在2023年已經推動永續提升行人安全的計畫 明定中央跟地方合作來改善人行道步行跨域交通環境"},{"start":354.179,"end":365.247,"text":"那你們常常在回應的時候就說這個都要地方有共識像剛才本席聽到這個徐委員在質詢的時候地方有共識地方有共識各位我們是中央耶你們什麼時候可以積極認識積極認識從中央來帶動地方然後給地方應有的支撐所以你們是不是把可以把部落或東海岸偏鄉的原住民"},{"start":378.257,"end":393.12,"text":"居民來納入你們計畫優先去考量人車分道行人自行道專用的通用的這個改善範圍在工程預算上讓規格來符合標準是不是可以簡單做一個回應"},{"start":395.809,"end":415.485,"text":"對其實觀光有很大的這個注意啦所以本席講的是一連串但是其實你們分段都沒有做好本席其實從去年到今年都沒有得到你們很系統性跟結構性的一些回應所以今天我只針對道路安全這個部分來講那是不是可以簡單做一個回應有沒有可能把它放置進去優先的一個考量"},{"start":417.122,"end":442.478,"text":"呃我先跟委員報告就是有關於這個台11線的部分啦那這個11線是因為部落很多那他就跟本席所講的聖雅各路這個概念是有連結的那請因為呃目前花東的部分的話我們是有另外一個計畫是但是那個最主要是在台九花東景觀大道那所以針對台11線委員提的這個部分的話是不是容許我們一點時間跟部落做一個整體的這個盤點"},{"start":443.539,"end":464.441,"text":"好 那是不是會後也跟本席這邊做一個補充 台9台11然後這中間聯絡的路網就是所謂你們在外島推的台版朝聖之路跟本席去年所講的福爾摩沙路線路網的概念麻煩你們在會後把相關資料讓本席知道而且來跟本席做一個溝通跟補充好嗎 謝謝好 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通學環境周遭的入口的視距問題我們再回到前一頁再去看那張圖有沒有發現停在那邊孩子的身影就是會被遮住根本孩子就是沒有辦法被看到難怪我們兒少的交通史上事實上會是高尤其在穿越道路的時候為什麼"},{"start":121.903,"end":148.311,"text":"因為所以當時為什麼會有這樣的要求就是在學區範圍內不應該有讓地方政府自己決定說我要不要在這邊為了停車空間之後去劃設停車位置所以想問次長這部分處理了嗎因為我週一請同仁問你們部的聯絡人得到的確認後回覆是今天週四到現在還是沒有任何消息所以只能在這邊來問次長"},{"start":157.6,"end":172.488,"text":"市長我的諮詢時間也很有限我一直在現在是不是可以給我答案事後再跟委員回報好不好事後再給我們回報那是什麼時候呢我們在一週內跟委員回報"},{"start":174.605,"end":200.749,"text":"各位下禮拜一跟我們這邊講因為很重視這個問題因為市長也看到了入口跟停車切齊的那個狀況底下物理視角非常大還是個子又非常的矮那駕駛人大家通常沒有辦法看到身形比較小的小孩所以確認這個定義之後邀請你們地方政府盤點清楚之後所要改善的數量這個可以做到嗎"},{"start":207.574,"end":227.441,"text":"我去年總質詢的就提到道路交通違規罰還收入分配及運用辦法的問題這幾天我相信次長也看到了大家對科技執法的熱討論熱烈今天才會有這個議程的規劃當然設置與否是地方政府呢警政單位的權責跟交通部無關但這一辦法"},{"start":228.241,"end":243.452,"text":"這一步辦法的修正我認為交通部不能再當院大頭了一定要好好的調整清楚甚至整部的辦法都應該要重新檢討可是我要問市長這個辦法目前的修正進度是什麼"},{"start":246.07,"end":259.047,"text":"先跟委員報告因為這個辦法目前是卡在那個卡在哪裡因為去年我總諮詢的時候就說藥修正你們也同意了可是到現在然後今年說五月那預計六月公告可是現在公告了嗎"},{"start":260.249,"end":274.622,"text":"目前還沒有因為就卡在那個財政紀律法的疑慮的部分我們還在跟後面還在跟我們對那次長什麼時候因為我說去年總諮詢的時候有同意要去處理"},{"start":275.763,"end":291.128,"text":"我跟委員報告目前我們會在第一個這個辦法還沒修正之前我們會先跟地方政府先溝通看協調把 給我時間因為我現在最關心的就是時間因為我說等了一年半所以我想知道時間"},{"start":292.861,"end":321.04,"text":"可以嗎 辦法的修正是 至少你們接下來怎麼做 否則本來預計事實上是回應我的時候6月要公告 可是現在已經是12月初了 又過了半年了 部裡面現在預計一個月內會先開 找地方政府先開會 因為辦法的修正 什麼時候找地方政府開會 你們之前沒有開過嗎 一年半時間沒有開過嗎之前有開過會 主要是討論那個 那只開過一次嗎"},{"start":323.784,"end":331.098,"text":"為什麼到目前甚至六月公告的時候到現在說要六月公告到現在也沒公告呢我們之前也有徵詢用書面徵詢各單位意見"},{"start":334.303,"end":355.123,"text":"開會也有我現在問的就是時間可不可以告訴我時間我們在一個月內會再找地方政府先把後面那個罰款分配的一個比例先做調整那我也要請你們後宵處理因為等的時間夠長了那謝謝次長請回那接下來我們的國土署這邊"},{"start":359.7,"end":364.153,"text":"行人優先交通安全行動綱領112年就出爐了在工程"},{"start":365.287,"end":392.311,"text":"面向上定有幾個具體的改善目標跟數量113年行人條例通過實施後這些目標也都訂定每年的KPI值我這陣子呢 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謝謝主席 本席有請交通部五次長來五次長請委員好"},{"start":13.762,"end":42.085,"text":"市長 本席請教你我們在穿越比較寬大的馬路30米或20米以上的這種馬路的時候我們都要走斑馬線那我走到路口的時候我突然發現這個小綠人他剛開始變快 就是閃爍那因為我腳程快我也可以小跑步過這個馬路所以我就很快的等於說就快速的過馬路您覺得這樣還OK嗎"},{"start":43.683,"end":48.984,"text":"我稍微要問我就是要請你問就是我剛剛這樣描述還OK嗎"},{"start":51.795,"end":74.092,"text":"因為剛講如果那個秒數不太夠如果讓你去用快步的快速的腳步去跑的話其實會容易發生危險我就跟你講我腳成塊我腳也長我就跑過去而且我跑到的時候剛好這是很難判斷這樣可以嗎我就請教你這樣可以嗎你覺得"},{"start":76.654,"end":103.374,"text":"沒有辦法去了解說確認你身為交通部次長你都不知道那我不知道上來的這位是我們司長那司長你覺得我這樣OK嗎原則上我們並不鼓勵行人在行川線上面跑步那我這樣有違法嗎沒有OK那可是我們有民眾就因為這樣"},{"start":104.949,"end":133.702,"text":"就被開罰了500塊而且我這邊沒有我們好像交通道路管理條例第幾條我的助理不見了207條 207條規定是不行的我這個要講的是什麼我也是因為今天我們英明的召委排了這個行人交通道路安全我們在討論這個議題然後收集民眾的很多的反應"},{"start":134.855,"end":146.949,"text":"我也才知道 我這樣是違法的欸市長 我要講的是我們啊 前兩年因為被國外媒體披露說台灣是行人的地獄"},{"start":148.072,"end":176.563,"text":"有這種汙名所以呢我們的交通部就大幅的大幅的修正很多交通法規而且強化這個執法強度結果造成現在交通的執法細節非常的多很多的判定標準只有在行政函式或者是內部作業規定你看一問你也覺得OK連我們司長也覺得還OK喔我也覺得OK可是這樣已經違法了"},{"start":177.952,"end":201.159,"text":"所以我們現在缺乏 就是我們交通部為了洗刷這個污名 OK 我覺得利益良善可是我們並沒有真正的讓民眾清楚知道也沒有改變不管用路人 或者是我們駕駛的行為模式甚至連法規都不清楚所以本席在這裡 今天我也有提案"},{"start":202.519,"end":224.806,"text":"這個我們因為缺乏統一而且容易懂得公開的資訊的管道所以讓民眾不明瞭這個法律的細節所以常常誤觸法網然後就被開罰單那有的時候又很容易受到媒體片面的錯誤的資訊的一些誤導這個媒體包含自媒體各種現在非常的這個"},{"start":226.547,"end":254.129,"text":"多元所以本席希望交通部會同內政部警政署要針對我們執法標準透明化還有法規資訊的禁用性要提出改進方案可以嗎我請次長次長可以嗎因為這個我可不可以請那個內政部警政署沒有沒有沒有這跟交通部因為交通部法規然後加上警政署執法嘛所以是不是可以你們要整合出"},{"start":255.619,"end":277.244,"text":"凸解法規的資料庫還有及時的闢謠機制可以嗎這個可以應該要嘛對不對因為你現在很多民眾我隨便舉個例今天是因為時間的關係不然我舉出來我問大家我們現場的大家都不知道啊可是我們都要走在路上啊可以喔對好本席有這個提案再來就是很快的"},{"start":278.683,"end":305.833,"text":"我看到警政署的報告我們112年科技執法46萬件113年84萬件114年今年才到10月統計到10月已經144萬那所以這個報告好像蠻洋洋得意抓了蠻多的可是我們發現這個科技執法並沒有改變駕駛人的行為模式"},{"start":307.886,"end":327.332,"text":"變成說好像變成我們開罰單開上癮了罰單滿天飛但是車禍照樣撞所以我們要請警政署的代表先上來一下我們是不是可以在一個月內交出一份科技執法的績效總體檢報告"},{"start":329.366,"end":347.442,"text":"科技執法績效總體檢報告而且本席要看到兩個欄位的對照該年度入口比如說我們有十大二十大取締這個重大入口的年度取締的件數跟該入口年度事故的下降率"},{"start":347.902,"end":360.74,"text":"我們要看出你一直取締你看這個每年飆升了三倍兩年飆升三倍你是抓很多沒錯可是我們想知道你這種事故率有沒有下降"},{"start":361.932,"end":379.174,"text":"有沒有真正因為我相信大家都認同次長一定認同我們警政署也認同我們交通的執法交通的處罰是為了交通安全不是為處罰而處罰更不是為了開罰單嘛對不對所以我們要看成效可以提供嗎"},{"start":381.104,"end":406.165,"text":"可以嗎 可以喔OK那最後本席那警政署請回本席最後要跟次長次長這裡就是有關TPAS我很快的講一下TPAS是很好的讓我們國人通勤族很好的一個措施但是如果我新竹到台北為什麼沒有我新竹到台中也沒有"},{"start":407.76,"end":421.555,"text":"這個部分可不可以來改善 改進市長因為TPAS它主要是以一個通勤啊對 一個交通一個生活圈所以那個生活圈變成你在定義啊"},{"start":422.441,"end":451.278,"text":"你踢帕子這個部分跟你報告一下踢帕子大概現在有三種形式第一個部分大家常講的這個區域型的月票如果是區域型這個月票的話原則上像大家現在談的這個北北基桃市以生活圈或是中央投票那如果說這個新竹要拓展到這個北北基桃這個生活圈裡面的話那基本上就要有這幾個地方政府大家共同來商議因為這個切割到這個相關經費分擔的部分那"},{"start":452.078,"end":480.007,"text":"來來來那我請教你技術上沒問題吧技術上沒問題這個東西就好像這個雙北跟桃園跟基隆就可以結成一個生活圈但是縣政府新竹縣政府也已經提出樂觀騎乘但是因為這個東西那新竹縣政府要跟這個如果要加入這個北北基桃這個生活圈的話他就必須要再跟這四個縣所以本席要講的是TPAS是我們交通部在全國弄的嘛對不對設置的"},{"start":480.487,"end":491.596,"text":"那現在你全國你應該要讓民眾你竟然TPAS我有可能我新竹到台北新竹到台中我其實距離都一樣那我也有這樣的需求"},{"start":493.44,"end":509.333,"text":"這個T-PASS應該要可以而且我相信也不只這樣也許中張頭、雲嘉南他們也有所謂跨所謂的生活圈的部分所以這個部分交通部可不可以整體的來我們都會協助地方政府像剛剛講的這個蘭高坪然後這個中張頭然後北北基然後這個桃竹苗"},{"start":518.48,"end":534.547,"text":"我現在就是新竹到台北 新竹到台中新竹縣政府有跟現行北北基討去談的話如果有提出計畫的話公共局會很樂意來做協助因為我們中央設置的不是中央來"},{"start":535.928,"end":554.765,"text":"因為跟生活圈的行程必須要地方有共識那如果說是屬於跨層級的部分如果是屬於跨層級的部分我現在就說你T-pass你可不可以民眾有這樣的需求的你可不可以賣票給他嘛我現在就是要買新竹到台北的啊T-pass你可以嗎"},{"start":555.626,"end":565.207,"text":"你說這個新竹到台北你講的意思是講說整個台北跟新竹有一個月票是不是"},{"start":566.212,"end":586.913,"text":"對啊這個東西確實是要地方有共識啦這個跟我的報告下地方可以啊地方有共識中央可以來主導嗎中央可不可以來主導之前生活圈的部分都是各地方先有共識然後中央來這個協助啦這個有時候中央沒有辦法強迫地方去做整個啦"},{"start":588.354,"end":604.413,"text":"那你現在TPAS的主管單位你可不可以你就把現在有這樣的一個缺洞你們來把它補強嗎不是 這跟委員報告這還是要地方政府他剛剛講他有個共識提上來因為這簽到經費的一個分攤啦"},{"start":606.874,"end":634.936,"text":"所以你讓地方政府他自己可是因為跨縣市他的需求是什麼譬如說剛講北北基桃就這幾個他有認為他有推出這樣的一個月票的一個情況你現在講的北北基桃你是用生活圈我現在講的是我們的民眾他就是會有這個需求我舉新竹到台北新竹到台中是因為我接收到的反應很多那我也跟你講中南部一定也有"},{"start":636.908,"end":655.703,"text":"那你們身為TPAS的主管單位嘛所以你主管單位你現在有這樣的需求那這個好 縣政府行文給你們你們就會召開會議了跟我有沒有這個TPAS有三種型態如果是區域型的部分那原則上地方政府要有共識那如果是程序型的部分的話"},{"start":656.963,"end":672.612,"text":"局裡面也提供兩種方式如果搭公路客運你這個每月搭11次或30次都有不同的折扣那最近12月1號才推出如果說你搭台北到這一個新竹到台北的國道客運你只要搭這個一個月搭兩次就有15%的回饋"},{"start":674.013,"end":701.156,"text":"那如果說這個搭這個一個月四次又有這個那我要月票呢月票你就縮成是生活圈月票的部分的話如果說是因為現在這個月票是針對長達族就是每天在用的部分啦如果說是剛剛委員講的部分是想說新竹跟台北結合起來他這樣一個月票到這個台北用可以搭捷運可以搭公車然後一樣享受月票這樣子的一個在一個定額裡面去"},{"start":701.996,"end":717.034,"text":"不限次數去使用的話這個東西就必須要地方政府大家那如果他要台北到新竹新竹到台北新竹或新竹到台中的就這樣子的通勤的這個月票你們可以嗎"},{"start":718.957,"end":740.399,"text":"委員 這個可能要請新竹縣政府先定義清楚啦如果說是需要台鐵的通行月票台鐵本身各種運具裡面本身就有月票如果說是必須要跟在地的這些相關捷運系統我先建議一下好不好因為新竹 我們徐欣義委員為新竹的鄉親來發聲啦那我想這個是民意代表本來就是要為所有大新竹地區來努力"},{"start":740.859,"end":757.191,"text":"那是不是先請交通部這邊也跟新竹縣政府了解一下說到底有多少的民眾有新竹到台北的通勤需求因為這才是TPAS當初發出來的一個初衷嘛你是要解決每天的通勤需求嘛那"},{"start":758.467,"end":783.997,"text":"徐新委員已經有提出這樣的一個陳情這也是接受到很多陳情之後的反應那是不是請公立局這邊來做了解那了解完之後也再跟徐新委員這邊來做報告那如果說這個需求真的到一定程度新竹縣政府也願意有部分的一個經費負擔該交通部這邊來召集會議等等部分我想交通部也以中央主管機關的身份能夠來再適時的關心這樣可以嗎"},{"start":786.339,"end":800.531,"text":"謝謝主席我們最主要的目的是對我們主席所說的還有就是TPAS你應該要普及全台你不是只有生活圈啦我特別講TPAS想辦法能夠是全台適用謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166194","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166194","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ba42ffd062fbea8d9e4a691b0189872a9f4d34277fbf0e24746c55bad50cc4f29616e932440b99205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:47:02 - 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麻煩請交通部好我次長次長好我次長請"},{"start":10.56,"end":39.476,"text":"委員好這個我之前曾經有關心過區間測數的問題啦那當時好像不是曾經質詢過陳士凱部長陳士凱部長就推給別人啦然後後來又再質詢過一次另外一位次長不是您啦那他當時是有承諾說會給我一個全國通盤的檢討報告因為我在跟他詢答的時候我沒有舉出很多區間測數不合理的地方而且那應該是由交通部來統籌的啦他答應啦"},{"start":40.456,"end":63.608,"text":"結果回給我們的文是非常荒謬第一個解釋什麼叫區間測速然後講說這個區間測速就是最終目的是在控制危險或讓那個易發生的路段的速度均勻就是解釋一下這個原理然後再講說這個是各縣市政府的事情然後最後講說用路輪本來就應該守樹線"},{"start":66.164,"end":74.674,"text":"然後最後推給內政部說即便是要檢討也應該是內政部的事天啊我覺得交通部居然可以這個樣子耶我覺得非常的荒謬耶"},{"start":75.871,"end":98.614,"text":"交通部在過去在區間測速的時候我記得非常清楚當時區間測速沒有標準是交通部跳出來找標準局定一個標準出來後來說有一度發生就是區間測速的鏡頭是用到大陸製的鏡頭當時林佳龍部長也說哪一個縣市政府你如果再沒有給我改的話呢區間測速不補助"},{"start":99.375,"end":120.85,"text":"所以交通部對於區間測速本來就是有責任結果現在可以把這個區間測速推得一乾二淨跟你交通部都無關那社長你們為什麼態度是這樣啊我跟委員報告確實剛提到的區間測速它的全責是在警政單位啊不是啦 警政單位我講一個好不好"},{"start":122.128,"end":133.4,"text":"台六四台六五為什麼會有區間撤訴是因為新北市的警察局接受公路局的委託請問一下公路局是交通部還是警政署"},{"start":135.353,"end":163.632,"text":"公路局是交通部還是警政署市長公路局是交通部還是警政署公路局我沒有找公路局我是問你交通部交通部嘛是所以怎麼可以推給警政署呢如果不是交通部針對交通安全的話警政署沒事他去訂這個公運幹嘛所以你們作為一個全國的機關應該訂定一個指引出來嘛針對全台灣這麼多縣市這麼多人民對於區間廁所質疑你要訂定一個指引讓各縣市政府來遵守"},{"start":164.392,"end":193.589,"text":"不是說跟你們都毫無關係啦我先就問市長你知不知道為什麼全台灣那麼多人對區間測數很反感你知道原因嗎你知不知道原因你完全不知道交通部完全對於大家對區間測數的反感完全不知道完全不知道不是因為這不是我的夜館所以我沒那麼清楚區間測數不是在講那個測數的問題嗎那你不是因為部長沒來所以欸主席我可以暫停一下是可以這樣子喔主席"},{"start":194.468,"end":209.121,"text":"部長有事然後找了一個對於這個速限管理比較不了解的人說不是他業管業務所以他不了解可以這樣子喔可以要求官員說明他說他不了解啊不是我可以請我的那個業管的那個同仁來說明嗎業管同仁好"},{"start":213.7,"end":226.034,"text":"跟委員報告 我們了解區間測數最近在社會上討論的熱度很高喔可是我們還是必須要強調區間測數它是一個執法的行為我現在在問什麼問題"},{"start":228.018,"end":251.165,"text":"我問什麼問題 你就針對我的問題回答因為次長不想回答 叫你回答你就針對我的問題回答就好了我的問題是什麼區間測速它 我們在那個不是 我的問題是什麼你剛才有提到在幾個快速道路上面是公路局去拜託我的問題是說為什麼現在各界很多用戶人對於區間測速很反感你知道原因嗎"},{"start":252.965,"end":278.595,"text":"我個人的理解 第一個可能是開單的數量很多那第二個 對於這樣子的錢 就是那個罰金似乎是沒有用在道路的交通我跟妳講兩個 好啦 我跟妳講啦第一個啦 大家覺得說這不會達到效果啦不會達到效果 區間測速 你這測頭尾嘛所以很多人一開始速度超過了快要到的時候開始減速嘛減速之後就造成回賭嘛"},{"start":280.1,"end":303.161,"text":"而且大家 照道理來講發生車禍最主要原因是因為沒有跟前面保持安全距離結果現在為了要盯那個速限有沒有超過平均所以要一直看著儀表板反而沒有去跟前面保持安全距離所以你不見得安全啊還有第二個就是密度太高了嘛光台64中間一段有五個區間測速"},{"start":305.239,"end":332.995,"text":"所以第一個數件訂的很不合理嘛第二個你密度訂到那麼高嘛而且第三個你到底能不能達到真正的效果嘛大家現在質疑的是這件事情跟委員說明一下從警政署的資料上看起來區間測數或者是科技執法的路段的檔案是有改善的哪一個路段不是每一個路段都有改善啊我們是有數據的而且你有的是很不合理嘛比如說數卷部分我看到網路上有一個影片啊"},{"start":333.655,"end":355.046,"text":"他在北宜公路上面一條下坡然後腳踏車一下就超速了速限不合理密度太高而且區間車速他本身的問題國外很多是沒有測速照相機的耶加拿大加拿大現在把那個有一個省把那個測速照相機全部都拆掉啦因為他認為改善道路才是重點啦"},{"start":355.706,"end":384.642,"text":"所有的用路人會根據這個道路的路寬視野或他離房屋的遠近程度自己會判斷安全距離嘛你現在就是直接定時而且那個速度那個數字是變來變去的一下這邊是30一下那邊是40跟委員報告加拿大那個例子全世界只有他這個例子他還沒有沒有你要來講國外的例子我也可以跟你講啦歐美國家他的速限很多都是固定的啦不會像我們這樣子跳來跳去啦密度也沒有那麼高啦如果要講國外的話講不完了啦"},{"start":385.495,"end":401.38,"text":"我現在會這麼憤怒的原因是因為之前就已經跟你們講說做全國的通盤檢討結果回這種文來我是在問你區間測數的定義嗎你們交通部對於區間測數的這種反應比那個AI還不如啦"},{"start":403.138,"end":426.546,"text":"AI講得還比你們清楚啦現在是請你們針對這個區間測數做通盤檢討定出一個指引到底密度應該定多高 速度應該定多高甚至於如果發現很多地方效果不好的話就應該要廢除啦現在講的是這件事情可不可以給一個認真針對區間測數回一個報告 可以嗎不要這樣敷衍好不好"},{"start":431.314,"end":453.031,"text":"市長報委員我剛提了說譬如說要去訂說到底密度多少這真的是要依照每一個路段對嘛那你就去看嘛那你訂個指引啊你訂個怎麼樣路段怎麼樣路寬怎麼樣的標準應該怎麼做你訂個指引出來啊然後大家可以針對這指引做討論啊各縣政府有個遵循啊有那麼困難嗎"},{"start":454.042,"end":468.96,"text":"市長 是不是我們相關單位到業委員辦公室這邊再做一個不是啦 你現在就可以承諾嘛因為這個是之前就承諾要給的東西啊結果你回一個公文來比AI寫的還不如來敷衍我們你現在就承諾啊"},{"start":470.185,"end":485.432,"text":"大家都很想知道啦大家都很知道區間測速標準是怎麼定出來的因為區間測速它是一個執法的行為以交通部的立場我沒有辦法跟警政單位說哪裡可以執法那你公路局為什麼委託新北市警察局在六四上面設那麼多區間測速"},{"start":492.262,"end":516.492,"text":"是不是在會後到沒有我要我要一個我要一個回文啊我要一個我要一個檢討報告跟我們報告下台六十四台六十五部分並不是這一個公務局去委託警察機關建置啦是這這個執法設備當時在早期有補助設備的建置但是設備的建置還是由警察機關來做建置他是他建置你有沒有叫他去建置沒有"},{"start":517.012,"end":529.825,"text":"沒有所以這個是警政署有來嗎所以警政署這個完全區間撤出都是你們看的這個跑去撤跑去建的嗎跟交通單位都沒關"},{"start":536.399,"end":561.83,"text":"地方報上來的地方警政單位嘛 警政一定要編嘛所以都是地方警政報上來的是他們自己決定我明明看到的資料是說他們接受公務局的委託現在大家突然推舉都不想要碰這一塊這個部分我就不了解了我們執行員每一個都不了解每一個都不了解你事後給一份檢討報告這是之前答應要給的我現在是針對你給的報告不滿意嘛"},{"start":565.222,"end":591.376,"text":"主席可不可以裁示一下主席在針對這個業委員需要的報告我想先跟業委員再了解一下業委員關心的一個方向那並且在業委員要求時間裡面回覆業委員報告好不好好我覺得一個月內啦因為這個是之前大家要給的啦你們盡速跟業委員來做一個了解不用了解了啦就是直接給報告就好了"},{"start":592.529,"end":601.812,"text":"主席猜試一下這樣知道葉委員想要的方向嗎我們會後再跟委員報告好了 好不好"},{"start":604.025,"end":624.632,"text":"不是讓他們到你辦公室我要一個通盤檢討要訂一個確認是說那個通盤檢討報告到底要寫到什麼樣的一個程度其實葉委員所提出來關心議題我們前面幾位委員也都已經有關心過不管是區間照相不管是測數照相其實這都是議題的狀況那本席也說剛剛部長在"},{"start":627.484,"end":645.659,"text":"幾位委員職權的時候也有答覆說可以找縣市政府這邊來開會所以是不是針對業委員這邊所特別關心測速照相的部分尤其是有特定路段的地方那也可以來了解之後那依照業委員需要時間裡面進促的回應這樣可以嗎好 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我們請次長 吳次長吳次長請委員好來 次長好 辛苦了先請教一下次長 請問一下寵物電動車是不是車"},{"start":20.815,"end":37.024,"text":"寵物電動車寵物電動車是不是車我是不是請我們的主管說明一下是不是車這邊因為我們法規上沒有寵物電動車這樣的一個名詞那應該是所以它應該是我們盜交管理處罰條例裡面的微型電動"},{"start":38.385,"end":55.983,"text":"二輪車吧如果是那個樣子最近看到的應該是我們的微型電動二輪車因為他是用電力為主的嘛那請教一下那現在有所謂的這種寵物電動車就是我們講這個微型電動二輪車嘛他可不可以上路"},{"start":57.348,"end":72.637,"text":"要經過我們審驗合格才能領牌才能上路那現在有你們審驗合格的寵物電動車是可以上路了嗎目前應該是那個新聞媒體上看到是那個應該不是我們審驗合格的"},{"start":73.845,"end":90.746,"text":"所以現在有業者有送到你們那邊去是不是目前也沒有那所以不論是這一個現在媒體上面的或是說還沒有出現的現在都沒有所謂的這個寵物電動車到你們那邊去送檢就對了"},{"start":91.707,"end":117.534,"text":"因為我們按照這個69之1條嘛就是說你必須要審驗合格登記領用然後掛牌照才能行駛嘛對不對好那所以請問一下那所以現在這個所謂的寵物電動車根本不能上路嘛是不能上路那如果這個業者他現在有賣他當然可以賣嘛可以賣嗎對他可以賣但是他不能上就是不能上路他可以賣不能上路所以買來當家裡當裝飾用就對了"},{"start":120.224,"end":143.235,"text":"應該是說如果你要上路都要經過審驗合格那像我們的電動滑板車那個都是在好 那電動滑板車我等一下再問所以基本上現在這個寵物電動車他都還沒有經過這一個檢驗合格所以他不能上路嘛對不對所以如果有業者有賣但是消費者有買了上路的那責任在於誰身上"},{"start":143.675,"end":151.182,"text":"我們這部分 我們會再持續來做一個宣導然後也會再發文給地方政府沒有啦 不是宣導 因為現在"},{"start":153.484,"end":172.482,"text":"新聞上面就有桃園嘛 高雄都有就是業者有在賣 他們也買了然後這個當然兩邊說法不一樣 沒關係就是說有消費者騎上路了 然後被警察抓到了就被罰錢 因為他不准上路嘛那所以說這個責任在於誰身上 是業者身上還是消費者身上"},{"start":174.928,"end":192.796,"text":"因為主要應該是業者因為應該是業者端那邊他要有他應該會比較跟消費者來講他會應該有比較多的一個法律的一個常識他知道說這什麼車可以上路什麼車不能上路所以基本上那車不能上路那消費者買了上路之後被罰錢的是消費者嗎"},{"start":194.608,"end":204.664,"text":"對不對因為他騎上路了就違反我們的這個道交署法條例嘛對不對但是您剛才講的就是說那業者要負相對的責任就對了他的責任在哪裡"},{"start":206.008,"end":224.312,"text":"因為他販售就是不合格的車輛然後如果說他因為最近看到那個新聞是他好像是有跟消費者說這個車子可以上路所以造成一樣的一個糾紛因為我有看到他們的這一個其中某一個業者的網站他上面有提到說"},{"start":226.813,"end":246.147,"text":"法規在調整的階段但是呢他還提到說依照現行的規定合法騎乘路段限於腳踏車到公園私人空地等開放空間有嗎可以嗎腳踏車到公園私人空地等開放空間可以嗎"},{"start":247.26,"end":259.893,"text":"這個是針對就是我們審驗合格的那個沒有啦 現在沒有任何的審驗合格的這一個所謂的這一個寵物電動車嘛對不對是可是沒有嘛所以基本上"},{"start":261.158,"end":280.355,"text":"我可以這麼樣講目前沒有一台檢驗合格的寵物電動車那理論上他買了之後只能在家裡面讓寵物坐他不能夠騎出去就對了他只要騎出去就是違法所以也沒有所謂說你可以在公園啦 空地啦腳踏車道啊"},{"start":283.039,"end":308.411,"text":"騎就對了沒有主要是我們處罰條例公告的道路範圍這都不可以如果他這邊講的私人空地你要在家裡的院子騎那公園勒對公園因為你勢必就是一定要經過道路啊那個部分就可能會有所以就不行嘛然後所以所以結論就是說他可以賣但是不能騎出去就對了那如果騎出去業者要負相對的責任就對了"},{"start":311.235,"end":327.565,"text":"主席不好意思 我再請教最後一個現在我們拒絕酒測當然就是可以罰緩一次就罰18萬而且可以罰緩無上限但是最近也有看到一個例子台北市有個年輕男子"},{"start":328.445,"end":357.225,"text":"拒絕酒測高達七次罰超過五百萬但是他可能名下沒有財產吧無照上路然後騎車自摔然後呢因為騎車自摔所以酒測超標才依公共危險罪含送請問一下現在對於這一種他反正你就是酒測他就是拒絕拒絕你酒測然後被罰錢他也不管我看這個累積都蠻多的我們交通部或是警政署都拿他沒辦法嗎"},{"start":359.37,"end":384.277,"text":"目前就是依照我們現在處罰條例就是針對他的那個罰款的部分然後處理然後另外刑罰的部分還有移送公共危險罪那一塊就是酒駕罰則的部分那可以當場比如說當場就是警察認為說這個他給我測應該 聞起來就是喝酒但是他不給我酒測我應該 這個警察要怎麼處理勒"},{"start":385.293,"end":410.018,"text":"因為這可能要看現場執勤的警察是不是有依照他的職權行使法或者是像社會法的部分來做處理所以基本上他如果拒絕酒測你也拿他沒辦法就對了目前就是罰款的部分就是最高就是處罰就是18萬18萬這樣子連接上去就對了不知道可以請警政署就現場執勤警政署就簡單主席不好意思簡單答覆就好做個ending"},{"start":415.768,"end":427.415,"text":"報告委員如果符合185條之三那個酒駕的規定的話可以報請檢察官可以那個抽選強制院協並要再喊給檢察官不然其他法則只能強制執行強制執行"},{"start":433.483,"end":460.273,"text":"對啊 如果他不給你酒測 你當場拿他沒辦法當場如果符合185條之3的新法的規定的話就報警那個檢察官開那個強制驗血的抽血需求還在報警檢察官喔因為這個整個流程不是很長了嗎在實務上哪有可能大概目前就只有這個樣子好啦 點出這個問題來你們去想一下好不好這短時間大概也沒辦法回覆好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝好 謝謝 官員請回"}]}},{"id":"166192","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166192","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ba42ffd062fbea8db85fcc9ad299f21d9f4d34277fbf0e24746c55bad50cc4f2277aaf2a4e3413f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"12:30:12 - 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對 地方政府他應該是依照他的交通的需求譬如說風險比較高也許他就是速度他會做一些限速度的一個限制"},{"start":83.502,"end":112.697,"text":"是一般應該都是地方政府通常應該都有一個道安匯報就是針對地方就是相關的一些交通狀況比如說交通事故或者是說比較危險的路口或者是一些比較特殊的交通狀況他們會透過道安匯報去做檢討然後也去討論這個改善的一個方式所以這個特殊照相設置的地點應該也都是會經過這樣子的一個方式"},{"start":113.758,"end":142.101,"text":"來決定那我想就是說從這個部分我們也看到就是說在整個台灣我們就是全國22縣市的這個有關交通罰款的一個收入的一個部分新北可以說是最高的就是說這個部分也是他們在列為年度的這個預算編列的時候的一個稅入的其中一個項目所以這個部分我們也是要讓社會大眾了解就是這樣子的一個"},{"start":142.581,"end":163.19,"text":"交通罰款的收入就是經由不管是這個警察執法的一個取締或者是科技執法這樣子一個收入是由地方政府一個收入那這樣子一個收入之後的一個分配全部都是地方在運用還是說有所就是中央或者是說其他單位有所分配"},{"start":164.232,"end":186.617,"text":"是跟委員報告我們目前那個罰款的收入如果在直轄市的部分大概是應該說地方政府先拿大概75%但是直轄市的裁罰機關是他們自己地方在做所以直轄市的部分會另外再加24%也就是說直轄市大概是針對罰款的部分他會99%都是直轄市收取"},{"start":188.14,"end":210.57,"text":"直轄市是99%是的那那個因為我看到有一個道路交通違規罰款的收入分配及運用辦法裡面有提到這我不曉得這是舊的嗎他是說75%是直轄市縣市政府24%是分配給處罰機關是指警政單位我剛剛講的99就是1加2就是第一款加第二款總共75加24是99"},{"start":214.079,"end":230.457,"text":"喔 是 那這個你可能要說清楚一點啦所以還是有24%是分配給執法的單位 就是警察局就是裁決機關裁決機關喔 是那 我想剛剛我們郭國文委員又再提到一個問題其實這個也是"},{"start":232.018,"end":246.051,"text":"本席在地方有遇到的問題當然就是說超速超速的一個取締通常跟道路的限速是相對的所以這個道路的限速到底合不合理我想這個可能也是要去檢討的"},{"start":247.112,"end":275.677,"text":"就是說我們雖然這個科技執法這個有關超速的設置就是測速照相是地方政府設置的那如果說針對他的罰單特別多的地方我不曉得說中央有沒有就是說有沒有那個去關心一下就是說為什麼這個地方特別高要要求地方政府要去檢討在限速上有沒有什麼不合理的地方為什麼會有那麼多的罰單"},{"start":277.476,"end":298.866,"text":"我跟委員報告剛提到因為他們設計這個超速的照相主要我在想他們本意應該就是為了讓交通更安全原來的交通原來的道路他會依照他線型不管坡度也好轉彎半徑那些來設置一個所謂的應該有的那個速度"},{"start":299.426,"end":318.769,"text":"但是假設這邊也許過去常常發生一些問題交通的事故也許他就把速度把它下降或者是大家容易去超速他做這樣一個設置那個超速的一個照相那我們剛有提到這裡面反正75或24加起來剛有提到有些我們是希望他要把"},{"start":320.812,"end":335.474,"text":"這個罰款用到所謂對交通設施設備的一個改善這樣的話對整個交通才有幫助不是只是一味的說我就拿到錢以後罰款以後放到我去做其他功能我想這部分我們未來再跟地方政府再多給他協商一下"},{"start":336.047,"end":360.552,"text":"是好因為其實我在地方也是會遇到就是民眾在陳情然後就說有的道路啊他的蠻就是說在行駛上應該是蠻安全的就是說他可能不是很彎的道路啊可是他的限速可能就50或60那事實上覺得說開到80都還算是安全的可是因為是限速50所以他只要開到"},{"start":361.492,"end":385.765,"text":"其實他就是超速了會被開單那因為這個會衍生另外一個問題就是我們現在對於超速的一個罰則也非常的重就是會涉及到吊罩的一個問題所以這個都是息息相關的所以當然我們就是說對於這個道路的違規的取締我們的前提是要安全那對於就是說如果我們有"},{"start":386.805,"end":401.955,"text":"這樣子顯示就是說罰單特別高的地方我們可能也要再進一步是不是要去檢討一下這個什麼原因會造成設的測數照相還是這麼高的原因可能要再去做一些檢討就是不要說只是"},{"start":402.515,"end":431.659,"text":"就是為了就是設置這個科技執法去罰款這樣子那因為我們也有發現就是另外一個問題就是很多民眾反映或者是在臉書上也是有民眾在就是在傳的一個訊息就是有關那個休息區的這個超速的問題休息區的那個超速的取締那休息區的那個那個也是用科技執法嘛這個部分就不是地方政府就不是地方政府設置的"},{"start":432.895,"end":452.616,"text":"跟各位報告那個國道的休息區是由國道公路警察局他們設置的不過那個網路上那個傳的都錯了我們在服務區那邊並沒有這個廣放設置那個測速照相的就休息區沒有設置他們只有在一處有設置而已"},{"start":453.217,"end":474.176,"text":"一處在哪裡好像在南投那邊是你們設的嗎公路警察局國道公路警察局為什麼會設那一處一般來說就是說因為在設置的地方其實都會是考慮到就是說他的事故事故率或者是就是說他比較容易發生危險的一個地方"},{"start":475.452,"end":495.065,"text":"我想因為這個問題就是說你雖然只設了一處可是現在被廣泛的傳傳成說是每個休息區都有這樣子的一個限制而且這樣子的一個訊息的轉傳對我們好像造成也是不好的一個印象我也沒看到你們有什麼任何澄清"},{"start":495.285,"end":510.255,"text":"有有有有每次都發文曾經或者是在那個網路的那個曾經區裡面都有院裡面這邊都有相關的曾經可是我覺得這樣印象好像根深蒂固一般民眾還是不清楚我們再加強對啊我希望說這部分應該要加強也不要讓民眾誤解好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166183","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166183","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ba42ffd062fbea8d2bc64653146aefe09f4d34277fbf0e24746c55bad50cc4f2a083280c9df5163c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:12:00 - 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謝謝昭緯 那我們是不是請次長來 次長請次長好 次長委員好我今天因為道交條例或是交通政策我想都是中央地方政府要一起合作努力對但是我們中央也有很多是必須要好好的去督促"},{"start":28.277,"end":44.683,"text":"地方政府要負起一些責任尤其我今天要談的是公車政策的管理公車管理的政策我想地方政府全責但是我們中央還是有督促之責譬如說我不知道次長知不知道"},{"start":46.864,"end":71.721,"text":"去年的九月有一個東海大學生在台中市中區被大客車 客運公車 輾壓 枉身那歷經了到現在一年多那家屬跟客運公司的歷經了好幾次的協調都協調沒有結果那之所以沒有結果呢據上個月的新聞"},{"start":74.324,"end":88.662,"text":"這個協調的破局是因為聚業這個客運公司的當時候造勢的價值他承認超時上工所以保險公司不理賠 拒賠那只剩下這個"},{"start":90.464,"end":110.832,"text":"保險公司不理賠的情況之下只剩下駕駛跟客運公司那駕駛跟客運公司呢的態度呢又不佳所以呢這個協商調解破局那為什麼這個駕駛自己認為超時上工因為呢按照交通部現行的規定65歲以上的大型車職業駕駛現上午6點至下午6點執行駕駛勤務"},{"start":118.075,"end":131.101,"text":"那當時候2024 9月的這件事情交通事故發生的時間已經在晚間9點明顯違規市長你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":132.663,"end":156.315,"text":"跟委員報告 我知道這件事情但是我不知道他後面剛講那個不理賠事情 我知道當時那個基業這個有撞死這個東來的這個女大生這我知道 那後續這部分我們抱歉我們沒有掌握我之所以要提醒交通部我們要掌握是在於第一個現行的這個65歲以上的大型車職業駕駛的這個時間的規定工時的規定 我們"},{"start":162.54,"end":178.628,"text":"有明令有規定這是交通部的法規對不對第二個他已經明顯違規了那為什麼地方政府竟然還不知道來我給你看喔我們現在的客車的這個客運的評鑑誰做的"},{"start":181.977,"end":194.172,"text":"主管機關 主管機關那以這個市區的客運主管機關是誰 台中市政府交通局台中市政府交通局那我們交通部公路局有沒有督導之責"},{"start":195.273,"end":211.334,"text":"跟委員報告按照權責這個對主管的市區客運區做評鑑是交通局的責任那但是我們對就是說為了提升全國公共運輸的發展對於做評鑑我們是有這一個補助是好那我就給你看喔"},{"start":212.475,"end":218.519,"text":"聚業公車的評鑑結果2023駕駛員工的工時稽查滿分因為得分總分3分在這個評鑑裡面17項的評鑑項目裡面其中一項叫做駕駛員工的這個工時稽查"},{"start":232.753,"end":239.941,"text":"2023評鑑結果滿分好我剛剛說了東海這一個大學生被撞死的是在2024的9月你知道2024的評鑑結果這是在今年才公佈的聚業的駕駛員工時稽查還是拿滿分"},{"start":253.416,"end":267.846,"text":"市長這合理嗎我剛剛給你看了喔駕駛承認他超時上工所以呢保險公司拒絕理賠結果我們在這個公開2025 11月27號最近才公布的一個2024的台中市市區公車的評鑑結果裡面駕駛員的公時稽查竟然拿滿分欸"},{"start":282.506,"end":284.288,"text":"那我們中央有補助這個平建計畫有補助錢預算給台中市政府難道我們沒有督導之責嗎這合理嗎 市長你認為這合理嗎那這個平建是做假的啊"},{"start":296.69,"end":319.265,"text":"是 我想這樣子跟委員報告剛講因為主管機關是台中市政府的交通局那我們交通部對他有所謂的經費上的補助我想現在經費上的補助我想針對這評鑑我們是不是可以再你要怎麼再要求這個評鑑他的過程到底合不合理合不合規到底有沒有實際的去稽查去評鑑"},{"start":320.746,"end":344.027,"text":"難道只是靠業者的書面的一個陳報然後就這樣子可以決定他的得分數嗎我看到這個所謂這個本來工時稽查在這17項裡面的其中一項他的配分是3分我都覺得分數這個好像看起來不是佔了很大的比例結果我更訝異的是竟然憑鑒結果他的得分還是滿分還是給3分"},{"start":346.369,"end":358.455,"text":"那呢 更好玩的是什麼 很有趣喔居業公司 對不起 居業的公車在2023的評鑑結果裡面的其中一項駕駛員行駛之安全性從2023到2024兩個年度來看他的安全性都非常的不及格分數很差"},{"start":367.031,"end":394.828,"text":"那竟然在公司的稽查裡面是滿分我覺得這個矛盾顯現出這個評鑑制度做的不到位而且沒有核實的去稽查那這個市長剛剛有說了嘛公車的安全第一資訊要詳實評鑑才能夠值得信賴不然我們現在在網路上看到的公告出來的評鑑結果我都懷疑它是假的"},{"start":396.741,"end":406.607,"text":"如果你的資訊不夠詳實評鑑沒有辦法被人信賴那做什麼評鑑那你看喔是根據我們發展大眾運輸條例跟交通部一個大眾運輸營運與服務評鑑辦法"},{"start":410.814,"end":438.165,"text":"以劇業的這個評鑑結果為例跟實際的狀況是有極大的落差而且是完全讓人家不可信任的所以市長那我們中央未來的對他的評鑑的補助經費我們要如何的要求是我想我跟委員報告剛提到因為我們大概目前大概就針對可能會再請同仁再去看從評鑑的經費上的補助我們怎麼樣去協助他讓這個評鑑讓他更完整"},{"start":440.006,"end":464.43,"text":"我知道評鑑計畫你們補助的預算其實在整個比例裡面不算多但是我現在要求的是不管你補助的經費多與少我要求的是地方政府在做真正的市區公車的這個客運的評鑑要核實要詳實資訊要正確評鑑要能夠被市民信賴這是最重要的一件事啊"},{"start":465.15,"end":477.405,"text":"我跟委員報告確實委員講到確實是最重要的一個這個重點因為包括我公務局對於國道客運公路客運的評鑑或是各地方政府對於市區客運的評鑑這個評鑑的一個這個成績還攸關到這個虧損補貼的一個部分"},{"start":480.609,"end":500.988,"text":"所以這個公平性對客運業者是非常重要的一件事情就是說對於台中市交通局這個評鑑有這樣的情況這個第一點我個人的看法是台中市交通局應該要對外做說明而且要對客運業者做一個那個那回到這個公務局供應補助的這個部分的話未來我們會這個檢討如果說確實"},{"start":505.192,"end":522.169,"text":"這個我們補助給他去做評鑑這些相關的這個結果是有這個相關缺失或等等部分第一個部分我們也會考量有缺失跟違背事實對 對於他的這個補助可能就是要再做一個這個檢討那甚至如果說依據這一個"},{"start":523.85,"end":542.069,"text":"評鑑做出來我們對於他們地方政府虧損補貼的這個額度的話恐怕也要連帶也是這個銅板做一個部分我想針對這個案子的部分我們內部來對供應的機制來做一個檢討市長很重要再強調一次中央既然有補助中央就有督導之責"},{"start":542.87,"end":564.518,"text":"那雖然這個權責是在地方政府但是我為的是台中市民在搭公車的市民他們對於認知中的台中市的公車安全跟管理都打了一個大大的問號12月2號才剛過去的那一天我們台中的公車失控撞脫轎車三名乘客救出送醫"},{"start":565.538,"end":581.153,"text":"然後呢 9月1號開學日70名學生單無車 拖班沒有公車坐 造成這些孩子上課遲到 苦苦等不到車我舉這兩個例子是最近的兩個例子"},{"start":582.813,"end":612.033,"text":"台中市的公車的安全跟管理出了很大的問題而我們中央在供應計畫裡面對於各項的這個市區公車或者是偏遠路線的公車運輸系統是有補助的我們如何在補助裡面針對我剛剛講的評鑑制度評鑑結果還有呢真正地方政府對於他的市區公車的一個安全管理的問題我覺得中央要拿出專業跟督導職責要嚴格的要求"},{"start":612.853,"end":620.327,"text":"不要每年補助然後辦評鑑然後呢每年的公車事故還是不斷我想這不是我們要的好不好好謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166182","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166182","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ba42ffd062fbea8d61a1b681e429f63f9f4d34277fbf0e24746c55bad50cc4f24159dd19c61a0ed75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:58:59 - 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好不好特別委員關心的行人的部分喔那我們從我們的數據上看起來行人主要的事故是發生在路口跟路段那我們在路口那邊這幾年因為我們用行人停讓的這樣子的政策"},{"start":195.553,"end":222.662,"text":"每年大概有3%到4%死亡率的下降這個成效是比較明顯那現在的問題重點下一個階段可能會放在路段中間喔因為台灣的那個機車還有車流的密度比較高所以我們在路段中間發現行人被行人被被被撞擊的那種頻率還蠻高的那當然也有一部分是行人在跨越那個路段中間那這個是我們下一個階段在"},{"start":224.322,"end":245.187,"text":"強調在宣導的重點那另外也跟委員報告從我們造勢的鑑定資料特別是從婦醫會裡面去看只要是超速撞到行人那個死亡率很高46%所以這個也是我們一直交通部一直在強調在速度管理上面的重要性還有行人在過馬路的時候的重要性好"},{"start":246.427,"end":265.826,"text":"這個司長嘛 你剛剛講的一個確實 下一頁就是要講這個測速照相的一個相關的問題 很多委員也說過啦我們都理解啦 剛剛部長也講好多次了70公里如果發生撞到人車禍他的死亡比例然後50 這我可以推論啦就不要開車出來大概就沒有問題"},{"start":268.188,"end":295.847,"text":"10那就幾乎是沒事但是我覺得這個部分一方面我們在推論在整個的一個部分車速照相一個交通是不是交通安全的萬靈丹剛剛有委員說過我就簡單帶過因為在我們就是在警政單位統計就是發生死亡的A1可能是駕駛人車上的也可能是行人總共的一個排行榜就駕駛這一端噪音屬於駕駛這一端他的"},{"start":297.127,"end":324.486,"text":"因為超速駕駛就你們的統計它目前是今年是到11月昨天而已抓出來的資料是第24名所以因為其中有大概前23名有各種的因素是我們警政署統計出來的發生車禍的主要原因是什麼那在這個的部分所以我們現在如果不管是地方政府或者中央的相關的一個交通政策"},{"start":325.467,"end":338.36,"text":"所以大家會質疑這件事情今天我要謝謝昭偉今天排的專案報告是我到交通會議來可以講最精彩的一天就把所有的路上的人都已經感覺衝過來舉牌抗議"},{"start":340.442,"end":362.557,"text":"行人舉牌抗議 行人抵禦駕駛人舉牌抗議這車怎麼開測速照相這兩個把它排在一起所以這個我覺得你們要思考這個問題怎麼樣做政策的指引剛剛部長特別強調說很多的設立是地方政府地方政府又是屬於警察局也很多交大 警政的單位也上來一下"},{"start":363.797,"end":384.652,"text":"對 在交大去會刊設計其實設在省道快速道路上面我們一般公路局大概都競表同意啦也沒有什麼不同意嘛大家為了交通安全可是因為他的A1死亡車禍排行榜就是第24名那我們再來看一看我們在網路上最近在談這個問題在駕駛端 騎車人的一個感受"},{"start":389.895,"end":418.158,"text":"我們坦白講我們是用這個全世界統計一個網站我覺得還滿精準的叫這個scdb這個網站大家可以去查叫做speed camera全世界統計全世界統計再加上因為有些國家大有些小有些開發道路多有些少那你要處理他的道路有些統計出來這是一個參考的資料那我們台灣的部分"},{"start":419.019,"end":440.732,"text":"每千公里包括巷道說只要開道路通算每千公里有82隻日本如果以他那個數據來講0.27隻新加坡26.9差不多27隻同樣的基數之下那我算一下全球沒有列出來全球整個加起來"},{"start":442.219,"end":470.196,"text":"每千公里2.2次所以我是覺得就在整個政策的一個考量當然這只是一個面向這支數它的密集度就用它的這個國家的道路它的密度坦白講台灣是真的偏高當然我們再比較就是說它的死亡率因為我們多所以我們的這個交通事故的死亡率減少了那我們就要說亂試用重點可是一看"},{"start":470.996,"end":487.589,"text":"我們的每10萬人道路交通死亡的A1車禍其實還是蠻高的好 那我想這樣我做一個結論因為第一個車速照相多這是一件事但是更重要的是速限的問題"},{"start":488.69,"end":500.897,"text":"剛剛也講了很多現在很多的駕駛人包括騎車的所面臨的很多的一個狀況叫做測速的陷阱什麼叫測速的陷阱大大的道路"},{"start":502.13,"end":528.922,"text":"然後但是慢慢的速度那個道路一看起來就大概可以開六七十 穩穩的但它有一些會四十是五十然後剛剛部長已經講很多次因為撞到行人的死亡率這我們可以理解可是問題是這種糟糕的一個情況對於駕駛其實我們大概很多都開車了遇到這種狀況第一個 測速器多不多"},{"start":529.622,"end":546.915,"text":"第二個 這個速限到底合不合理第三個是最嚴重的事情大大的馬路 小小的路口一堆我們都出過有一些比較先進的國家我們到那邊也乖乖走個五分鐘才這個路口"},{"start":547.535,"end":567.39,"text":"可是在台灣有非常多的大路即使我是三米的小路兩米的農路我碰到了大道路分隔島我一定要把它打開我想市長你有沒有遇到這樣的問題還是市長你自己開車有沒有遇到這個問題整條道路有些樹線到底它為什麼會遇到行人就是大街小巷"},{"start":568.531,"end":590.312,"text":"兩米的巷道農路鑽出來就是地方一定要給它開過所以變成一條正常如果大家都講正常在這麼寬的60米雙巷的道路設計就居然出現這麼多這麼多大小的一個穿越道路每一個上面當然都有人行道所以我覺得這樣的人車相遇的那種頻率"},{"start":591.713,"end":608.638,"text":"我覺得是有不合理喔我就開一條路這個我不舉例說明各縣市都有所以我這個部分我講我覺得交通部我們在過去討論行人地域的時候你們當然也可以說大部分的人行道都是地方政府所以我可以不管"},{"start":609.378,"end":637.886,"text":"那現在可以說 測速照相都是地方警察局 地方政府的我也可以不管 但是不能這樣這個整個台灣的一個印象我們大家一起努力 對不對所以我是希望行人這一端 怎麼樣去改善那尤其在測速照相我的結論是 測速照相的設立在一個交通政策跟財閥是希望越來越好還是越來越壞"},{"start":639.369,"end":667.102,"text":"當然我們希望設立的目的是最後沒有人超速了然後就慢慢慢慢車速照相越來越少然後達到我暫時性的一個執法的一個教育的目的可是現在不是是越來越多而且裁罰越來越多這個某種程度根據我們最終的一個交通教育的目的我覺得反而是背道而馳所以我希望在整體的一個交通的一個政策引導的這個部分"},{"start":667.782,"end":687.101,"text":"我們交通部也能做一些來引導包括內政部的警政署因為大概在桃園有22%的費用會進到我們警察局裡面也是我們警政同仁在做交通安全相關的使用桃園市警察局有沒有 有沒有分到這個錢"},{"start":688.522,"end":701.092,"text":"零嗎 你剛剛講零是署裡面是零還是警察局那個處罰機關不是警察執法機關錢不是撥給警察局的但是有處罰機關他們處罰機關是誰處罰機關拿24%嘛 大家都說了嘛那不是警察機關我知道 處罰機關拿24% 75%到哪裡去市府"},{"start":717.726,"end":739.723,"text":"對所以這個好法律規定12%要做交通安全相關的部分都進到各個警察局都有進桃園市是22%所以你拜託不要再講什麼0%的問題當然這也不是中央地方的問題關注他最後使用的部分確實有沒有到我們交通安全上面這是民間關注的角度好不好"},{"start":741.668,"end":765.002,"text":"跟委員補充報告直轄市的部分就是地方政府是拿了99%我知道嘛24%是交通裁決機關嘛對不對然後75%的部分我再講有進到我們桃園市政府警察局的部分我們希望能夠確實用到法定上面規定的交通安全跟相關設施的改善好不好好謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166181","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166181","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ba42ffd062fbea8dbc91eb9f6702466a9f4d34277fbf0e24746c55bad50cc4f24159dd19c61a0ed75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:35:16 - 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你也不知道地方政府也不用報給你他們不需要報來交通部沒錯這百分之十二跟他相比"},{"start":404.677,"end":425.897,"text":"報告委員 其他國家都比例高很多啦而且是真正有規範要做道路改善的工程但我們台灣目前是沒有這方面的規定我知道這個比例太低啦你現在請地方政府的收入你是從交通罰端收入對不對99%都留在地方嘛你只有12%拿來做"},{"start":428.567,"end":455.32,"text":"交通相關的設備改善等等這個比例部長你覺得太低嗎報告委員我們有看其他的國家像日本或者是法國他們比例蠻高所以他們的那個道路改善的速度相當的快韓國其實也是這個可以調高嗎我們希望調高但是要跟委員們大家合作才有辦法調高我們也會跟地方政府來做溝通他這個有一點抵觸財政紀律"},{"start":458.278,"end":482.277,"text":"這個財政紀律法好像在一百零八年有修訂過是不是這樣子是是你現在這個你要跟財政部談因為他這個訂的很實財政紀律法一定要很細的你現在訂的這個法律修正法律修法法規和自治條例規定不可以再去訂固定經費額度或比率保障"},{"start":484.339,"end":505.2,"text":"用所謂的指定專管專用林局長跟我們報告這個分兩個層面如果就法治層面的部分的話這個分配辦法是在財政紀律法這個之前那也確實我之前在想說要是不是可以調高那找這個相關財政部跟組總他們是講說如果就法治層面來看的話"},{"start":506,"end":533.177,"text":"現在要修正就必須要去遵從那個財政紀律法的規定所以原則上那個百分之十二這個要動好像是有違反財政紀律法的一個規定之餘那另外一個部分當時第二個層面是想說那現行六個項目可不可以來做這一個調整就是做這些很明把它明定做交通安全改善環境改善這個部分但是這裡面這個部分的話又會牽涉到地方政府我也跟委員報告因為"},{"start":534.417,"end":551.823,"text":"這個錢在地方政府裡面各自應用的情況不一樣那我每次開會的時候地方政府出來如果是交通單位跟警政單位出來的意見就會有差異就是說 我也不反對這些錢留在地方但是你應該優先來做交通相關的改善"},{"start":553.063,"end":566.629,"text":"對 這個我們相當同意但是地方政府他現在不受規範他只有99%的12%裡面拿來做交通相關的支出而已所以局長你要給部長了解這個狀況"},{"start":567.89,"end":596.239,"text":"那部長他是同意調高嘛問題是你現在有相關法律的卡住喔所以我就說要跟委員們大家一起來合作你要找財政部找內政部大家來好好的討論要不然這個就目前為止看起來就真的是地方政府的小金庫啦確實是這樣對不對就顧寨宜贏啥啦你也不得不看啦而且你看他只有12%指定用在交通相關其他88%等於隨便地方顧寨宜贏啦"},{"start":597.08,"end":619.62,"text":"這一點我認為有很多民怨可能也是因為從這裡而來他認為你那個用來改善交通的錢那麼少對不對 路線標示號誌路口改善當然你更容易造成違規嘛變成一個惡性循環好 我們主席先站起來感謝主席啦謝謝部長好 謝謝我們各位同仁 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166180","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166180","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ba42ffd062fbea8df1a30c43e35100d99f4d34277fbf0e24746c55bad50cc4f2ced9b5e91fca9c545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"10:26:37 - 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有請我們陳部長 警政署陳副組長還有公路局我們林局長來 部長 局長跟副組長請"},{"start":17.459,"end":42.547,"text":"部長早部長我想進入今天主題之前我想還是一個比較現實的問題要請教部長是那目前我們這個115年度的中央政府總預算還躺在立法院還沒有通過那這個是從2008年我們這個國會改革之後17年來最晚賦為審查的一次那我想這個狀況我們也非常憂心各縣市重要的交通建設"},{"start":43.547,"end":66.423,"text":"會不會因為這樣的狀況受到影響我想部長自己有沒有什麼心理準備跟委員報告我們目前部內也在做這方面的盤整因為尤其道路改善的計畫尤其是一些安全的計畫這個刻不容緩也不希望能夠不希望被拖到所以針對我們原本延續性的計畫我們會持續來做但是對於一些新興的計畫可能我們就要等"},{"start":66.823,"end":92.924,"text":"整個預算過了之後才有辦法做所以我們也有做好有一些建設上面可能要緩一緩的心理準備部長 我想我我本身是在屏東 是因為我特別擔心這個狀況那尤其因為目前碰到立法院現在的審查預算的狀況我想陷入一個政治惡鬥的一個狀況那有可能我們的總預算一直沒辦法審查完畢的時候是 我也很擔心我們的重大交通建設會沒問題"},{"start":94.145,"end":122.108,"text":"是 部長這部分你們怎麼因應 報告委員交通部所承諾地方要做的大型的交通建設我們都會全力來做那不過也要看我們的裁員的狀況我們希望我們的裁員的狀況是好的 裁劃法現在也被擋住了 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這為了我想我們交通部還有警政署我們相關部會大家一起來努力當然我們要捍衛我們行人的擁護權益但是應該不要把過度的執法不當造成我們鄉親的一個困擾我想這應該也放在首位來檢討一下好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166179","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166179","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ba42ffd062fbea8d96dc9ae2b0d069709f4d34277fbf0e24746c55bad50cc4f2ced9b5e91fca9c545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:14:23 - 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謝謝主席主席我們一樣請陳士凱陳部長好 部長請國賢好部長早部長這個今天要討論這個所謂的測速照相的問題我想先一開始請教一下部長您這一生有沒有收過超速罰單當然有收過有在開車的人都會收到比較多啦比較多啦那你超速當下收到的時候你有認得到你超速嗎"},{"start":30.128,"end":47.659,"text":"誒 認知到超速喔對 就是你被你當時收到法案找你超速我說你在開車當下的時候你應該也不是故意超速的應該 應該不會認知到自己超速好 部長謝謝那這樣就能夠苦民說苦啦你就能夠這個體會我們為什麼今天要討論這個議題我們先看一下齁這交通部的過去的統計啊"},{"start":50.001,"end":68.126,"text":"114年1月到8月全國的這個造勢事故噪音統計裡面1到9名跟超速都沒有什麼直接相關報案說浩子路口轉彎車未讓直行車是最高導致小停車事故的原因右轉彎未依規定是第二名未保持行車距離是第三名等等等等"},{"start":68.766,"end":94.681,"text":"那根據交通部2020年的統計超速大概佔全部交通事故主因的大概2.13%那當然後續沒有找到相關的統計資料所以沒辦法提出來討論所以今天本席為什麼今天在這邊提出來就是因為我相信包含部長在內包含本席在內我們當初不小心超速所以收到罰單的時候我也不是故意的我也不是一定要 我也不是在競訴那也沒有真的造成用路人的這個安全的損傷所以說為什麼今天要討論這個問題"},{"start":97.603,"end":106.299,"text":"這個部長你知道全台灣這個數字比較痛比較麻煩比較難整理那你知道全台灣到底有多少這個測速照相機嗎固定式測速照相機這個我不曉得"},{"start":107.148,"end":133.248,"text":"本席在這個政府資訊公開網一個一個縣市一個縣市去找然後包含說這個公路還有這個省道國道然後跟地方政府合計起來如果統計沒錯的話2025年台灣總共大概有2500個固定式測速照相機全台灣各地方政府加中央等等的大概2500個測速照相機那所以按照這個比例啊我想這個密度來講其實算以全球來講也算是相對比較高啦"},{"start":134.008,"end":159.786,"text":"那為什麼今天會講這個問題就是說今天包括說我們看到的這個改善交通事故的原因跟測速照相跟超速它沒有因為你們在一開始報告覺得說這個超速等等的原因是不是可能會造成事故會跟事故造成交通事故的主因之一可是就數據統計上跟你們各家的統計看起來兩者之間並沒有所謂的因果關係"},{"start":161.107,"end":181.361,"text":"所以到底這個政策有沒有要調整的空間報告委員您所提出來的這個數據是在車禍當下的統計數據車禍當下那在車禍當下為了要趕快快速排除有時候我們在登記的那個過程當中不會問得那麼細但我另外一個數據也提供給委員就是交通事故之後有回來復翼"},{"start":182.662,"end":201.309,"text":"回來復疫就是說對於那個測量或什麼有意見的回來復疫之後就會比較詳細去調查整個車禍的這個噪音那這個比例看起來的話是20%是因為超速如果有回來復疫的話真正認真去研析之後發現是20%並不是這個2%所以20%才是比較精準的數字那另外針對這個超速與否"},{"start":209.352,"end":237.171,"text":"的這個速度的限制我跟委員報告我剛剛也跟召委報告過我再講完整一點台灣我當然不一定是交通很專業的人我們交通部裡面有非常多專業的人那過去長時間這樣子的設置這樣的規則跟規定有它的一定的邏輯跟道理包含工程上面的邏輯包含這個幾何路型的邏輯等等那我一個很簡單的數字跟委員報告我自己開車有時候也會覺得這道路很寬闊"},{"start":238.092,"end":259.739,"text":"怎麼會限制50怎麼會限制60先講委員在這我講就大家一起聽因為其實道路的管理有時候是要防範失誤的時候的危險我們要先設定說人都會失誤所有人都會失誤當失誤發生的時候我們希望他的死亡率可以降低"},{"start":260.379,"end":281.56,"text":"那跟委員們報告目前看起來WTO給的數據時數70的時候撞到人死亡率是99%時數60的時候撞到人死亡率是90%那為什麼很多都限定5050我們希望他有一定的效率那另外一方面他的死亡率降到50%到60%"},{"start":284.822,"end":306.754,"text":"那為什麼學校會用30因為學校用30他的死亡率更低這個沒問題就是說確實這是物理問題嘛你時速越快當然撞到的死亡率當然越高所以他的速度管理有他一定的道理我們今天討論說希望能夠更有效率的處理我們交通的這個效率的問題那當然如果報告委員效率跟安全我們要抓一個平衡點對啊"},{"start":308.215,"end":329.19,"text":"那個平衡點是什麼大家要有共識我們現在就是討論一個共識這幾年像我剛剛在報告的大家今天也關心的就是行人地獄的議題或者是交通死亡的議題我們希望在2013年之前我們要降低50%的死亡的人數我們希望要安全的同時我們又希望效率提到很高"},{"start":329.81,"end":357.964,"text":"我覺得這一點對我們來講不是很容易的事來 部長我們就個案來我們就幾個狀態來討論包含提到說你剛才提到我要講的就很多道路它很寬闊但是你說定在速限50的原因可能就是因為避免萬一失誤的時候它可能造成比較高比較大的死傷率但是以台灣現在這種測速照相你們在設置相關的規範裡面是因為我們所謂包含今天的報告裡面有提到我們是大區段速限一致的原則"},{"start":359.145,"end":383.445,"text":"所以在彼此的時候是50可能原因是因為後面有一個轉彎或是後面有一個路幅的改變所以我整個大區段的這個道路速限會把它定成這樣的標準但是其實對用路人來講就是以這個案例為例像這個新聞事件它是因為躲側樹所以它擊殺它造成很多的像剛剛的事故委員您在講的這些都是特例"},{"start":384.591,"end":412.018,"text":"然後你也看到照片 您所提供的照片上面是警方在這個地方那測速也真的不是 欸 好啦 嗯怎麼樣 你要說什麼沒關係包含啦 包含說我們在高速公路上開車的時候經過測速照相的時候 這一段區間講白了 就比如新竹那一段 就特別容易塞車因為大家為了那邊測速車 差比較多隻啦所以有時候新竹那邊特別塞有時候原因就是因為大家希望這段速限就降下來"},{"start":412.498,"end":435.312,"text":"但是你過了新竹我們如果做一個實驗把那邊的車速照相測掉塞車也不一定能解決我們可以試試看啦沒關係好 那再來因為時間到了後續再討論一下因為今天還有一個第二問題就是我們行人交通的部分這件事情跟車速照相我要並且來討論是因為我們推出了很多的這個相關的交通安全的改善措施但是行人事故的死亡的件數"},{"start":436.312,"end":452.583,"text":"基本上從11301到8月跟11401至8月基本上行人事故的死亡事件它是持平的所以不能否認交通部有奴隸所以數據是持平但是我們希望更精進在做什麼地方為什麼大家對測速照相這件事情相關的罰還你看一下預算"},{"start":453.584,"end":481.301,"text":"在這個預算裡面我們光是這個去年的收入今年預算裡面去年收入有38億左右更不用講各地方政府的收入大家想要講的是說今天我做測速照相你是為了降低可能交通事故希望交通能夠更安全所以我們去裝所謂測速照相那我們因為測速照相收來的錢要做什麼事情我覺得這是交通部要去思考的就是我今天收錢收來不是只是增加那個是交通部代收的"},{"start":481.901,"end":497.561,"text":"對啊我說可以看到這麼多金額進來嘛那個也不是測數照樣 沒關係部長我的意思是說今天交通罰款這些錢收進來之後我要做什麼今天收進來之後我要做什麼因為你收進來之後我不是純粹為了增加政府的收入而已嘛我是希望說能夠改善一些事情嘛"},{"start":498.041,"end":521.189,"text":"那包含說日本他是很明定的在發展道路交通安全設施那今天最後一點時間我要跟部長為誠心的一些人建議說這個收入我們是不是能夠專款專用所謂的測速照相的收入或是相關這個道路的這個罰款我們能夠專款專用用在所謂的行人的交通設施的改善或者交通加強交通安全宣導等等的把項目明定下來"},{"start":522.249,"end":541.406,"text":"讓你這樣子對於不小心違法的違規的像本席跟你在內我們這個不小心超出的時候我的法環我花的有價值我交給國家之後我至少下一次可能在陸服的改善或在行人這個交通設施的改善上面能夠在工程上面讓我會降低我的書限"},{"start":541.966,"end":568.962,"text":"那也保障行人安全或保障其他用戶的安全報告委員您這麼說我相當相當的同意也跟縣長委員跟召委報告剛剛你們所提到的就是說我們執法的目的是為了安全是為了更加安全所以我們執法之後所收的這些政府收的收入不應該移到其他地方應該要大比例的來做交通安全的改善才是正圖那我們目前看到現有的規定是12%"},{"start":570.743,"end":595.124,"text":"有些縣市我們其實有調查過不一定有做到12%但那12%呢大部分的比例是拿來做坦白說測速照相的維修或維護或者是執法的層面的維護那但是真正放到交通安全的工程面的改善或教育宣導面的改善其實比例相當相當的低那這個部分我們也希望能夠做改進好 部長你也知道這個狀況這個現實狀況我們希望說未來"},{"start":597.426,"end":613.058,"text":"今天既然討論測速照相的議題那既然罰都罰了錢都繳了那我們希望錢要去到真的有幫助的地方所以再強調一點就是說包含你在內 包含我在內我們那時候在開車所謂超速的時候我是因為那個情境所謂85%的問題"},{"start":614.719,"end":633.225,"text":"我不小心就超速了但是我們希望交通部相關專業部門在做道路工程設計的時候你透過工程道路的設計讓我不得不減速嘛我如果在一個3米寬或4米寬的巷道我不可能開到時速50 時速60我可能40就會自己"},{"start":634.065,"end":654.937,"text":"看一下狀況會把速度減下來所以道路工程設計應該也是往這個方向你既然道路工程設計如果這邊路幅寬達6公尺7公尺然後你差一個速限50那很多人就不小心他就會超速了但如果今天道路設計他就是4公尺3公尺他不可能開到60 70以上我想這個是物理問題我覺得大家一起來努力好不好 部長沒問題 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166178","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166178","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ba42ffd062fbea8df6d05f75622baf879f4d34277fbf0e24746c55bad50cc4f261f4198ff1cb05dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"10:02:40 - 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謝謝主席 請交通部陳部長來 陳部長請部長早 您好我想因為交通的問題當然千頭萬系說實在的也不是一朝一日但是問題的製造是非常環雜的"},{"start":24.727,"end":47.136,"text":"那我有看到你們的報告跟有關單位的報告也是這兩年來行人地域的改善當然行政院也充分的給三個單位一個內政部一個交通部一個是教育部其實教育部他要負責的就是往下雜耕的教育那是非常重要"},{"start":47.896,"end":66.7,"text":"所以我們要學習日本他從小就教導小孩子要如何過馬路如何分辨交通的對跟錯可不可以這個我們要多多學習人家可是我看到這個報告交通部這裡是有做"},{"start":70.121,"end":88.85,"text":"那內政部這裡也有做但是我還是建議要協調教育部的部分往下雜跟的教育部分要更落實一點這個才有辦法去達到交通改變觀念改變 交通就會改變"},{"start":89.77,"end":118.778,"text":"那交通改變當然交通就沒有生命之危險所以我想部長你同意本席對於這個看法吧報告委員相當同意啦這個部分我們在道安的這個委員會的過程當中教育部長其實也有列席那我們也一直在拜託教育單位可以來協助那當然交通部也是責無旁貸我們會提供一些教材的資源跟一些教育的這個專業的知識給教育部那我們希望能夠更落實到兒童的教育"},{"start":119.218,"end":147.279,"text":"跟學員的教育這個部分本席還是拜託部長你們提供給教育部的時候那個資料提供一下你不要只有一位委託的我們的路老師就可以解決不是這樣有時候我們下情上達然後名義代表老百姓給我們的意見才是意見所以我是覺得用路人的心聲駕駛人的需求"},{"start":147.999,"end":166.825,"text":"這才是這個交通要制定法令的一個基本的概念所以部長我還是希望這個提供給我們本委員所有的委員來做參考那另外一個我還是要建議剛剛我們幾位委員同仁我是接著他們討論的其實"},{"start":171.221,"end":196.192,"text":"這個科技執法沒有人會反對但是要注意準確度的問題這個內政部在執法的當中當然這個是牽涉到地方政府啦要經過你們設定標準然後地方政府他們去規劃他們去執行但是不要忘了你還是要督促他的準確度的問題"},{"start":198.331,"end":213.178,"text":"幾例 現在有兩部車聘請然後他科系指法是固定的鏡頭結果兩部 兩部都開到底哪一部超速 不曉得所以準確度確實是有問題"},{"start":215.438,"end":231.729,"text":"這個部長我要拜託你要監督地方政府跟那個這個準確度一定要去執行不要兩部車並行然後兩部都開到底我沒有超速啊是那一部超速假車超速或乙車超速"},{"start":232.429,"end":256.264,"text":"不知 但是兩個都開 這個是不公平的所以我為什麼要要求準確度的問題這個部長提供給你做一個政策性改進的一個參考另外一個就是必要性啦 必要性啦當然 你明明知道它是下滑的波段結果你去設一個快速"},{"start":256.624,"end":284.725,"text":"所以這個就是必要性不足的地方應該也要檢討所以我是給你建議建議這兩點特別特別要去注意這些我想市長的部分這裡可能我們制定法令的時候當然會牽涉地方政府跟執行單位他們去設計的一個準則所以只要發現這個問題我們要稍微去人性化的調整這是有必要的"},{"start":285.506,"end":304.219,"text":"那最後一個我還是以重心長建議部長淡江大橋確確實實大家都知道中央非常困難的情況之下他才去落成所以你難怪我們洪昭維他一直在關心我們每一次看到報章雜誌"},{"start":305.76,"end":330.551,"text":"在那邊爭功毀業我們這看得很難過其實我們是肯定地方政府的我們肯定中央政府的這是共同努力的結果所以我要拜託我要拜託部長在這個部分你特別要留意一下尊重地方的權利跟尊重地方政府的意見這是非常重要的沒有指責誰對誰錯"},{"start":332.552,"end":350.478,"text":"一個政府就是政府中央政府也是政府地方政府也是政府所以我要拜託這件事不要讓我們看到報紙就是這麼爭功毀業這個沒有意思大家都知道是中央政府做的地方政府沒有能力做這些報告委員 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第一個勞保會他們都不繳欸你們有沒有去查第二個你們補助八千塊他也是失吞欸"},{"start":516.864,"end":533.909,"text":"現在比較嚴重的現在他們最嚴重的是工會裡面這些駕駛員準備要罷工那罷工以後當然就是我們交通主管機關"},{"start":535.211,"end":562.083,"text":"是有關啊 可是罷工的問題當然是勞動部的事可是你不能說勞動部的事影響我交通事業的正常行駛啊所以 柏中這我這樣給你檢記啦把實情告訴你們為什麼會欠工資啊為什麼勞保不繳啊為什麼說實在的會侵占人家的補助費 為什麼"},{"start":563.483,"end":579.037,"text":"來 柏中 你有沒有掌握跟委員報告我們大概在擔心跟理解國光的財務狀況的時間差不多已經接近一年了差不多一年前我們就已經有差不多關注到他的財務的問題那我們也有拜託公路局"},{"start":579.437,"end":608.053,"text":"要緊盯著他的財務的狀況甚至是我們已經開始做到了一些路線的調整因為我們也擔心說如果國光有哪一天突然沒有辦法繼續運行的話有沒有其他人能夠接手所以路線的部分我們也在協助他做調整有些路權我們該不給就不給了由其他的客運公司來接手那我們目前也是緊盯著他的薪資的狀況還有他的財務的狀況那我們能夠提供協助的當然會提供協助不過對交通部來講更大的責任是什麼"},{"start":608.553,"end":633.811,"text":"就是所有的這些路權他在開的那個路線我們要保障民眾的權益那也就是說他不能開的時候我們要馬上有人可以接手這對我們來講是更關鍵的所以交通部在一年以前我們就開始在做這方面的規劃繼續監督啦好不好最後一點我要提醒一下我們車禍裡面我也要拜託你們在做分析研究的時候"},{"start":634.571,"end":657.753,"text":"老人發生死亡率特別高這個問題不要又靠陸老師了我們要做一個研究所以我們交通研究所這個要多研究所以上次我也跟他講研究出來要給傑策做一個有效的改善所以我們的老人家發生車禍"},{"start":658.914,"end":681.361,"text":"的這種比例非常之高所以要拜託部長 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主席謝謝 我們麻煩請陳部長好 交通部陳部長好 部長 部長早部長本席先給您看一下這個照片歷史照片回顧一下這是哪邊 看得出來嗎"},{"start":20.745,"end":43.821,"text":"比較遠啦 抱歉沒有打在後面關渡大橋42年前1983年的10月關渡大橋正式通車的時候淡水那邊連接兩岸造成大家非常期待甚至橋上有很多的慶祝活動看到很多民俗活動表演"},{"start":44.421,"end":62.616,"text":"甚至爸爸帶小朋友一起上橋來拍照走在橋面上這是42年前的一個畫面一樣淡江大橋現在明年5月會正式通車也是大家期待已久了北台灣很重要的一個公共工程"},{"start":63.45,"end":91.587,"text":"交通部出資三分之一內政部出資三分之一新北市政府出資三分之一這其實是好事而且公路局的同仁不管是歷任局長陳文瑞局長現在高工局但以前他還是公路局局長現在林福山公路局局長還有已經退休的幾位局長其實大家都很用心那我們也希望是好事不要變成是壞事可是怎麼最近這一個禮拜看到好像部長跟侯市長有點隔空的在互相講"},{"start":92.648,"end":117.185,"text":"到底是溝通不順利還是怎麼樣不然為什麼我們在地方的鄉親會覺得是說我們沒有參與到來 部長簡單說明好不好好 跟委員報告其實這個應該都是誤解啦我覺得如果有想法大家可以來溝通那想法如果溝通不了才會有情緒但是目前為止新北市政府並沒有提出他們想要做哪些活動而公路局不接受的這個狀況所以這個應該沒有這個問題但委員剛剛所提到"},{"start":119.786,"end":139.427,"text":"這個是一個很重要的重點因為全國大家矚目所以活動之前的半年大家有想法這絕對是好事那我們也因為新北市政府開始提出想法我們也趕快想辦法把細節討論一下包括委員您是在地的委員我們也希望說委員可以提供一些意見讓在地的民眾可以來參與這樣更好"},{"start":140.888,"end":161.538,"text":"那也跟委員報告我們其實原本公路局自己所設定的這些活動裡面有相當多的地方的社團跟地方的民眾其實有參與包含我們有一個音樂會他那個淡水的國小也有來參加那個合唱團也會來參加那之前大家在討論的那個路跑的部分他的裁判的部分其實是由淡水的這個運動會體育會他們來推薦的"},{"start":165.62,"end":192.102,"text":"那另外我們其中有一天還有一個健行的活動也是有開幕大邀請地方的這些社團都有參加那另外還有一天的健行活動也是由地方的慢跑協會來舉辦所以本席現在在講是說非常多的過程其實本席因為已經在這個選區五年多的時間所以你剛講每一件事情我也都有協助來參與不管是說要溝通要協調但是這一次的過程在什麼"},{"start":192.762,"end":209.594,"text":"在於是說當一出來的時候你們已經規劃好可是新北市政府會認為是說好像沒有再進一步的協調不過本席現在講還有半年時間如同剛剛部長講的本席也認同就是還有半年左右時間我們現在能夠更精細的規劃讓這件事情能夠更好"},{"start":210.154,"end":226.436,"text":"最多人參與讓地方有光榮感以及大家未來對於淡江大橋好了之後能夠解決地方的交通需求這才最重要是沒錯所以幾個部分我之前有提到是說路跑跟自行車因為有限定名額它其實是有報名費的但有限定名額可是現在"},{"start":227.037,"end":240.873,"text":"考量安全以及整體的容量的情況有沒有可能再加開名額再給民眾來報應跟委員報告我們其實總共會有三個禮拜可以辦活動基本上可以滿足所有民眾想要上橋"},{"start":241.934,"end":268.364,"text":"去參與這次的慶典的這個需求但是它的這個容納的這個限量大概是7000人是安全是一個安全的數字那再上去其實我們就擔心有一些危險不是承載的問題而已還有管理的問題還有就是說如果發生了意外的時候我們的救援的車輛要怎麼上去的問題所以我們目前設定是7000人對都有評估過但是現在是沒有辦法你是因為安全的問題沒有辦法"},{"start":268.524,"end":297.039,"text":"是 因為安全的問題那另外就是說地方上的需求也好或者其實坦白講全國民眾都想去當然那我們用兩個禮拜的時間把活動分散開來那大家都有機會來參與大家都有機會來參加這個是最好的好 那本席之前提過說那這樣的話在路跑之前其實地方的民眾也很期待因為施工在地方大車進出都在地方所以巴黎地區淡水地區的鄉親大家很期待因為看了十幾年了"},{"start":297.639,"end":320.14,"text":"終於看到它完成了那現在我們希望是說規劃地方鄉親能夠先有上橋體驗的部分這能夠一起納入做討論嗎跟委員報告這個部分我們會來研究跟討論好那不過因為我們原本的活動也就是委員在建議的部分讓地方的民眾有一天或者是一段時間讓他們可以上橋去體驗一下甚至拍照一下這個本來就在我們的規劃裡面"},{"start":321.461,"end":337.938,"text":"所以我們就來爭取這個部分至少讓地方民眾因為地方這一次特別講到是說路跑也沒有預留地方名額自行車也沒有預留地方名額但當然也有網路上我們也看到消息講是說台北馬拉松他可能也沒有限制說只能台北報名"},{"start":338.819,"end":358.925,"text":"萬金石馬拉松可能也沒有限制說只有萬金石的相信報名所以說這一些部分那本席也了解未來譬如說淡江大橋完工之後相信這可能也會變成是各大賽事或者是說各大社團活動申請的部分所以說未來也很多活動只是當然大家也都有一個打卡"},{"start":359.965,"end":381.18,"text":"搶先的一個心態那最重要的就如同本席剛剛給您秀出來的照片42年前就是所有淡水人跟巴黎人的回憶記憶就是關渡大橋的通車大家能夠互相走這個是鄉親的期待所以請盡力促成可以嗎一定會來滿足地方的需求好一定滿足地方需求謝謝部長部長我再利用兩分鐘的時間跟您討論一下剛剛其實"},{"start":384.122,"end":407.112,"text":"本席坐在這邊聽你跟廖先生委員我覺得有點沒有對焦其實廖委員他非常清楚知道說裁罰是警政單位道路設計是交通單位他也清楚可是我覺得他提出的問題以及最近有藝人在講是說全台灣的測速照相設置太多多到比國防設施"},{"start":408.132,"end":437.361,"text":"多的比監獄設施都還要多這引以為國恥你也有看到這個評論嘛可是每一個國家的監獄都不會比這個數字好像多部長這個是藝人的評論嘛但現在本席想要強調一個部分在於是一個道路到底它設數限多少這個定是由交通部門定嘛不管是交通部不管是地方的交通單位都是由交通部門嘛那你為什麼會在這個地方定60定80你要有理由啊"},{"start":438.573,"end":465.321,"text":"因為你訂出來的60、80的一個速限之後如果說超過了才會有警政單位去做裁罰對不對但是你事前的定位有沒有符合實際的需求所以剛剛廖委員也提出一個數據以及我們大家常常在講很多人常常在罵一個什麼就是說這個地方就是筆直的路可是到最後它的速限相對不符合大多數人的駕駛習慣的時候"},{"start":466.781,"end":495.772,"text":"你就會變成在那裡有測速照相就變政府搶錢所以回歸最原始的根本就是如果說那個道路它的是樹線在那個數值上面是安全的那我們想要問的是政府部門為什麼會定的樹線往往都比一般的駕駛人的感受來的低這個是一個重點那能不能有所調整跟實際去看那個道路的狀況來符合最安全因為它是一個Match點嘛"},{"start":497.23,"end":526.229,"text":"安全跟速度會有一個match點他應該是一個實際的作為所以說國外才會有所謂的85分法就是85%的駕駛者認為說在這個道路上如果開多少的速限是安全的那應該就以這一個為基準當標準這是國外現在已經看到我相信你們應該要比我更了解跟專業才對那但是國內往往不是這樣台灣過去有很多的道路往往就是我這條路出來之後我就定一個60"},{"start":528.25,"end":556.158,"text":"60差不多啦然後就定60那如果說有地方因為發生了車禍因為發生了什麼情況就來會刊檢討那不然降為50好了不然降為40好了那就沒有一個科學的標準跟數據去支撐說為什麼要降為50降為40以至於降為50 40之後如果再有測速照相那那個地方平常的開車會相對比較快而造成大家就認為說政府搶錢"},{"start":557.608,"end":587.388,"text":"部長您可以理解本席剛剛講這一段我相當理解也跟委員報告數十年來台灣的道路的設計跟速限的規範當然有一套標準不可能是憑感覺如果是憑感覺這個國家大概已經亂掉了所以他們其實都有一定的速率在規定例如說非都市地區可能是由交通部這邊有一個設定那另外都市的部分是由國土署那邊有一套的設定規則那每一段道路路會越蓋越好"},{"start":587.968,"end":604.878,"text":"這個沒有問題會越來越直你講的本質都理解其實我覺得現在重點在於是因為您剛也講過去幾十年而且有兩三個單位有交通部門有內政部門等去設計道路還有就是道路的原則都差不多對道路的越來越多"},{"start":605.978,"end":629.374,"text":"樣態越來越不同其實現在大家回歸的點就是說當已經測速照向全台灣有三萬多隻然後還有就是說道路的設計的時候是不是能夠啟動做一個通盤檢討以一樣的標準再去檢視一下說現在到底有沒有不符合失憶或者是部長您聽一下喔或者是我就列出譬如說各縣市"},{"start":630.603,"end":654.626,"text":"全各縣市測速照相違規的前10名或前20名那針對前10名前20名來去檢視看看說那一些測速照相合不合理因為他會在那個地方有很多的測速那就當然要去看那有可能是安全性所以有可能是安全性如果說是安全性的話我沒有意見因為本來就要保證國人的安全"},{"start":655.046,"end":674.859,"text":"但如果說它不是安全性而是那個地方本身就有瑕疵或是本身就會有一些不同的狀況而導致於說在那邊特別容易被拍到那我們要的不是只是罰納稅人的錢我們要的應該是保障大家的行程安全就不要讓大家到最後到那個地方之後就擊殺因為罰怕了"},{"start":677.5,"end":695.106,"text":"而過了之後又加速而是應該是檢討那個地區有沒有什麼狀況部長能不能針對這個部分您剛也講就說廖委員這邊也講到是說其實各縣市設置那能不能交通部以一個主管機關中央主管機關來找各縣市交通"},{"start":695.586,"end":711.128,"text":"局交通單位來開會針對這個議題我想這也不是一天兩天但針對這個議題來做一個討論能夠怎麼樣有效的去檢討抓出現在可能藏有的漏洞跟委員報告"},{"start":712.008,"end":727.697,"text":"公路體系我們自己管的公路體系已經通盤檢討了幾次那這個部分我們盡量朝合理化那另外如果地方上有不合理的部分其實民眾也可以提出來或民意代表也可以提出來因為大部分我剛剛有講過百分之九十幾的道路是地方政府所管的"},{"start":728.217,"end":744.344,"text":"那委員剛剛的提醒希望我們能夠通知地方政府叫他們做一個通盤的檢討這個沒有問題我們來通知他們請他們跟這個包含內政部警政署的設置的這個方式來做一個通盤檢討我們來跟他們溝通看他們願不願意做一樣的原則"},{"start":745.905,"end":763.906,"text":"部長願意要做交通部門你是中央主管機關要做大家絕對不會不願意做其實你有一個通則或說你有一個辦法出來之後讓大家去做要求甚至本席剛剛講嘛這是一個粗淺的概念但我相信民眾是有感的"},{"start":765.339,"end":792.707,"text":"你當一個地方如果一天他發生車禍的比例跟他被罰測速照相比例不符合正比的時候可能有個地方到最後現在都不會發生車禍了可是每天都有上千張上萬張的測速照相在那邊被拍的時候那就代表說那個地方可能樹線調製的不合理或者是說那邊的道路設計不合理而不是說每個人經過都要超速我們應該是要這樣思考吧"},{"start":794.537,"end":818.208,"text":"部長 是本席最後echo一下剛剛廖委員的話 是要再更積極一點啦中央管原則方向地方管執行這個是大家理解的狀況但是不是說這樣子所以說中央就原則方向反正我訂出來啦在那邊啊你們自己看啊那去看啊沒關係啊政府是一體的大家常講嘛"},{"start":818.948,"end":845.094,"text":"那地方也有執政黨也有在野黨但我們現在不分黨派因為我覺得交通委員會通常都不分黨派來討論我們要討論是民眾的疑慮跟民眾的問題以及我們怎麼解決以及看到國外怎麼設計那我們來思考好的我們把它留下來壞的我們不要您說到國外怎麼設計您剛剛講V85的這個設置在世界衛生組織有一個報告他直接就寫明他直接建議V85不應該作為設定安全速限的主要工具"},{"start":846.394,"end":871.284,"text":"那另外 針對速度管理的部分但是也有國外做參考嘛 是 地廣人稀的國家可以我們周邊的國家 新加坡 日本跟南韓都不是這樣我們是地狹人稠的國家是不一樣的原則我也希望交通部門 交通部門要去理解跟交通部門要拿專業來說服全國民眾我常在講 如果說一個地方你的專業是可以說服民眾的話 任何"},{"start":873.82,"end":877.784,"text":"有任何狀況你們可以有堅持你的立場為什麼很多的道路是設計50跟60的時數或70來70%的時數如果撞到人死亡率是99%本席現在要的是你跟全國國人來交代跟說明"},{"start":891.916,"end":906.541,"text":"部長我們進一步因為這個議題這個議題也不是一兩天的時間但是本席願意很開放的態度來跟您做討論本席也反映很多的民意因為今天不是只是單親北市的問題我相信中南部可能會有更多這樣子的狀況"},{"start":907.981,"end":921.665,"text":"那這一些都是你應該要去掌握也因此本期剛才會建議的方式找縣市政府交通單位共同來討論針對這個部分能夠來做改善或者能夠來個檢討部分應該要來行動 可以可以我們來做檢討來做檢討 謝謝部長 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測速的一個取締來去做一些規範性的原則的調整"},{"start":101.955,"end":118.613,"text":"可不可以針對裡面的條文再說明一下報告委員 委員好目前我們的作業程序是取締一般那個交通違規的部分那裡面有包括到設備測試照相機整個一個設置他有幾個基本的原則 大概有四個原則那未來我們會再"},{"start":120.094,"end":123.016,"text":"所以我們警政署原則上有要去做一些相關的調整那我再請部長一下 部長"},{"start":142.101,"end":153.778,"text":"這個其實警政單位是執法單位規定其實都是我們交通部訂的其實對於道路的一個交通的安全我們交通部一定比警政署還來得了解跟專業這沒有錯吧"},{"start":156.045,"end":171.447,"text":"報告委員在執法的層面交通部沒有權利去要求警政單位我只是請教我們部長針對交通安全的專業我們交通部一定比警政署專業那我們測速照相機設置的目的是為了什麼"},{"start":172.128,"end":187.905,"text":"是為了交通安全嘛對不對是 我們希望可以更安全那既然是為了交通安全那在交通安全上面我們交通部又比警政署來專業那這件事情我先謝謝警政署願意去做一些調整但是這件事情我認為這應該是我們交通部的一個"},{"start":189.484,"end":214.575,"text":"應該更有能力來做這件事情因為包括從道路的一個速率的一個訂定從道路的設計然後到了這個速率的訂定其實都是我們交通部在訂警察機關他只是針對違規去錯取地而這個違規的取地的方式能不能對道路的交通安全有改善這是我們的目的有沒有改善其實我們交通部應該會更為專業這沒錯吧"},{"start":216.936,"end":241.166,"text":"報告委員您剛剛所說的這個速限的設置那個也不是全部都在交通部百分之九十幾以上的道路是地方政府去決定的但我們交通部也在這次的報告有提到說我們交通部有要研擬一個速率的設置原則所以說我們交通部這一點也在努力速率設置的原則在一百一十二年我們應該有委外的一個案子有做過一個是測速一個是一個是測速一個是限速兩個有點分開"},{"start":242.906,"end":257.859,"text":"我們這邊是決定速率的原則啦跟討論速率的原則實權還是在地方政府我這個當然是全職這樣就如同我們的測速照相一樣我也只希望你設置原則我知道測速照相不是你設的嘛但是"},{"start":258.559,"end":278.378,"text":"我們交通部是一個交通安全維持的最高的安全的指導機關可是執法層面全部都是在內政部的警政署我們交通部沒有負責執法對我們沒有權利因為我們沒有權利要求哪一個路段你可以執法哪一個路段你不能執法對交通部來講所有的路段大家都要照規則下去走"},{"start":279.099,"end":304.598,"text":"我不可以叫警政單位說 這一段不能進去所以就兩個問題 一個速限嘛 對不對那一個是速限 那另外一個是那個設置的部分嘛您說的那個是執法那執法的部分 警政署 剛剛謝謝警政署了但是一樣強調我們的測速照相機是為了交通安全去設置的取締不是目的嘛 對不對所有的執法都是為了交通安全維護安全維持"},{"start":305.899,"end":326.001,"text":"我們交通部應該要更有能力知道我們測速照相機大概會在哪一種的類型情況下的設置對於我們的交通安全是有提升的一個實際的功能嘛其實我在上一次的質詢您沒來啦上次我問這個同仁我們測速照相機是在道路在做規劃的時候"},{"start":327.925,"end":354.394,"text":"就決定要在哪邊設了嗎還是事後才去設大部分的情況都是事後才去設但是這個邏輯有點奇怪我們在做一條道路的時候我們應該就要知道說這條道路它在哪一個區段我們認為它是相對的危險的或者是未來事故率可能會比較高一點的那我們應該是做一個提前的預防但現在的現況是我們這邊發生事故我們就在這邊設置一個測速裝上機但是違規它是有隨機性的"},{"start":355.441,"end":378.439,"text":"對不對所有的道路每一個路段都要遵守規則下去走道路設計的時候不會去設計說在哪一個路段可以執法哪一個路段這個又牽扯到這個大區段輸入原則啦對不對越扯越多啦但是哪邊可以設測速上機對交通安全有提升我認為交通部是可以提供相關的一個指導"},{"start":379.875,"end":398.925,"text":"那個是執法層面委員所有的道路不管哪一段速限是50就是該走50沒有說哪裡可以設側出照相就要走50沒有設側出照相不用走50沒有這個道理的法規是這樣限定但是因為這是因為我們大區段的速率訂定原則好啦那我跟部長"},{"start":399.565,"end":421.02,"text":"提另外一件事 交通部就只負責這一塊 執法面真的不是交通部啦我上次有跟那個同仁問過 我們有沒有對這個自然流速去做一個統計大概在自然流速下面有多少的車輛是違規的部長我上次說啊 如果說有50%的民眾超速的話那是我們的民眾愛超速 還是道路設計的一個問題 還是樹線的一個問題我發現我講得太保守了"},{"start":424.96,"end":438.553,"text":"公路局在兩三年前曾經做過一個報告部長你猜猜看在一個限速70的一個省道大概百分之多少的民眾他是符合速率的規定多少的民眾是超速的這個我不曉得你不曉得我說50 50太保守你猜一下"},{"start":439.842,"end":464.245,"text":"我不曉得 先為委員指教我看那個圖表啦 大概是7% 8%啦一條道路只有7%到8%的民眾在正常的速率行駛下面是合法的然後你要在那邊設測速照相機取締民眾違規這聽起來問題很大吧問題很大吧如果說你希望他們降速 你應該用工程的手段"},{"start":465.265,"end":490.24,"text":"對不對 無論是標線或是實體的設施而不是訂定一個不合理的線數然後再來做取締這是民眾最為詬病的那我們為什麼線數會低是因為彎道嘛 是因為斜坡嘛不是因為某一個路段它真的開這麼快是危險是因為大區段的一個原因而導致部分路段它可能開得也很順 它會超速那你在這些路段去測速測速當機它就不是為了安全嘛你現在是要問我還是要問內政部問你啊問我啊 我就跟你說過執法不在我這邊"},{"start":496.252,"end":513.902,"text":"執法是為了道路交通安全嘛是不是委員我跟您溝通過很多次了執法是內政部在負責執法哪裡設測速照相是地方政府所以他會一個更大的範圍包括速限的一個訂定是否合理那這個問題就太大了"},{"start":515.635,"end":529.75,"text":"這問題說太大我們沒有辦法在這邊討論但是車速相機這個也是可以討論的啊但是要找地方政府一起來討論我跟您說過了大部分百分之九十幾以上的道路的速限是地方政府在決定不是我們交通部在決定啊我們今天在這邊是討論問題是今天"},{"start":532.503,"end":553.999,"text":"我們都知道車速交通機其實大概都是警政機關設置的那民眾對這東西有這麼多的討論我們是道路安全這個守護的最高的一個機關你今天可以選擇當英雄來解決這件事情你也可以繼續把這件事情推給別人以上 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09:36:36","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2025-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長、教育部及內政部就「『行人優先交通安全行動綱領』實施兩年來改善『行人地獄』具體成效暨台灣測速照相機密度精準度、速限制度精進檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部部長就「淡江大橋通車活動規劃辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n三、繼續審查(一)委員邱若華等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐富癸等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十六條條文修正草案」案及(四)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；審查(五)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查(一)委員邱若華等20人擬具「大眾捷運法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「大眾捷運法部分條文修正草案」案及(三)委員李昆澤等20人擬具「大眾捷運法第三十九條、第四十三條及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n五、繼續審查(一)委員盧縣一等18人擬具「鐵路法第二十六條及第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(三)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「鐵路法第五十六條之四、第六十七條之三及第六十八條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等25人擬具「鐵路法第五十六條之五條文修正草案」案、(五)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員廖先翔等25人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員張宏陸等18人擬具「鐵路法第六十五條條文修正草案」案及(八)委員洪孟楷等19人擬具「鐵路法第六十八條之四及第七十二條條文修正草案」案；審查(九)委員邱鎮軍等23人擬具「鐵路法增訂第六十八條之四條文草案」案。\n【本次會議開會事由一、二之詢答後，進行法案之逐條審查；開會事由三第(五)案及開會事由五第(九)案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-04","start_time":"2025-12-04T09:25:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-04T09:36:36+08:00","duration":660,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-4-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":2.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.5072187500000003,"end":5.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.56096875,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.867843750000002,"end":21.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.94784375,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.715343750000002,"end":43.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.89721875,"end":62.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.924093750000004,"end":65.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.43409375,"end":67.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.86846875,"end":68.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.71221875,"end":71.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.53034375,"end":73.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.63971875,"end":75.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.30596875,"end":85.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.66721875,"end":90.54846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.83534375,"end":94.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.75034375,"end":97.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.34471875000001,"end":101.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.54659375,"end":103.84596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.35221875,"end":110.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.10221875,"end":120.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.12596875000001,"end":172.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.43034375000002,"end":177.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.43784375,"end":208.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.21784375000001,"end":181.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.47346875000002,"end":193.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.77471875,"end":209.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.01096875000002,"end":218.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.29221875000002,"end":234.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.13784375,"end":236.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.61846875,"end":248.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.82471875000002,"end":240.93846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.49846875000003,"end":258.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.01659375000003,"end":254.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.35346875,"end":265.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.75721875,"end":268.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.34346875,"end":272.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.68034375,"end":282.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.77159375,"end":284.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.42534375,"end":285.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.43784375,"end":288.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.13784375,"end":297.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.68909375000004,"end":306.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.90846875,"end":297.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.25721875,"end":321.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.29721875,"end":322.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.20846875,"end":338.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.60659375,"end":340.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.68659375000004,"end":347.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.24659375000005,"end":359.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.46846875,"end":368.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.03721875,"end":372.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.77471875000003,"end":376.1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請一下陳部長還有林文山局長 楊振軍局長還有黃和廷副署長陳部長 林局長 楊局長以及副署長請部長好 針對今天質詢的主題"},{"start":21.826,"end":42.782,"text":"在質詢之前我有兩個問題想要先請教一下陳部長就是高鐵現在每天搭乘的人次已經是高達21萬5000人搭乘的人越來越多但是高鐵的行車異常事件也越來越多在11月28"},{"start":45.936,"end":65.596,"text":"快要到台中的時候就是1號5車次我也在這一班的車次上面就是說主變電站號稱這個電力的壓降造成雖然電力沒有跳脫但是快到台中站的時候有煞車而且停了一下子才緩緩的進入"},{"start":66.479,"end":84.806,"text":"台中車站那車上的乘客大家是議論紛紛然後在12月2號通訊系統的異常雖然有啟動備援機制但是至少有4班次他是延誤超過30分鐘以上影響是超過2000人"},{"start":86.738,"end":101.143,"text":"我要提醒部長是說2024年一整年他的行車異常事件有25件但是今年2025年1到11月已經有39件如果再加上12月2號"},{"start":102.591,"end":120.664,"text":"就已經有40件所展現的它已經不是個別事件的問題我認為是系統性 結構性高鐵的行車安全出現了問題部長你要怎麼去督促鐵道局還有台鐵高鐵公司來維護這樣的一個基本的行車安全"},{"start":121.204,"end":124.805,"text":"是 報告委員這幾年確實我們有觀察到112年有36件113年27件那今年已經加上剛剛委員所說的12月的已經到達40件那我們高鐵也確實營運了將近20年的這個時間我們有些系統"},{"start":136.83,"end":159.545,"text":"是不是應該要更新或者是應該要注意它的維修的層面我們近期已經請鐵道局很專注的跟高鐵公司來研討跟研商這個問題這個議題因為這個延誤的狀況越來越多是我們很擔心的一方面是時間上可能會去拖延到影響到民眾行的權利二方面我們也擔心是安全上面會不會有其他的疑慮"},{"start":160.445,"end":181.682,"text":"那所以高鐵的車速這麼快的狀況底下我們認為所有的安全的系統跟所有的電控系統跟維修系統都必須要完備也必須要有百分之百的令人信任度這個部分請部長督促鐵道局還有高鐵公司必須要將這個行車的安全要嚴謹的來做一個處理跟督促"},{"start":182.242,"end":208.136,"text":"另外國旅的部分部長在11月中旬有提到說在明年要推動這個平日國旅的相關的優惠方案包括平日的住宿優惠方案生日的住宿優惠方案或是遊樂園的留宿方案還有企業員工國內旅遊的獎勵方案還有台灣PASS的平日國旅的相關的優惠方案我現在要請教一下部長"},{"start":209.096,"end":233.464,"text":"我們大概什麼時候要實施然後相關的預算你大概有沒有一個來跟社會大眾來做初步的說明跟委員報告對於明年的這個國旅的促進的計畫我們觀光署已經列了一些希望能夠擴大內區的一些方案跟計畫我們是很希望預算如果能夠順利通過的話我們希望在明年的三月之後可以開始來實施"},{"start":234.224,"end":257.676,"text":"明年3月那預算的金額大概多少我們整體預算大概是23億左右我們有23億的預算希望鼓勵國人在平日能夠多旅遊在生日能夠多旅遊甚至是遊樂園也希望大家能夠去玩我有兩個細節的問題想要請教一下房屋署長在這邊你們的這個平日住宿的優惠方案"},{"start":258.696,"end":265.39,"text":"還有生日的住宿優惠方案是都要登記還要抽籤是不是這樣 那個程序如何進行啊"},{"start":266.866,"end":292.221,"text":"是 報告委員那目前平日住宿我們是從4月1號開始那這個部分的話就是要先去做登錄然後是用抽籤的方式那生日的住宿的話是從明年1月1號開始然後每個月會抽出1000名然後每一位都有1200的這樣的一個住宿這個相關在實施之前必須要做好相關的宣導"},{"start":293.081,"end":301.072,"text":"不管是細節要盡速的說明資訊也要正確然後相關的程序要盡量的簡單這個要讓民眾樂於接近這樣的相關的一個資訊另外"},{"start":308.098,"end":324.565,"text":"這種國旅的優惠方案當然是有助於相關的國內旅遊的一個推動但是我認為部分措施是不是能夠再加強以生日住宿優惠方案來說你每個月抽出1000名的國人"},{"start":325.345,"end":347.217,"text":"然後補助是一千兩百元那一年總共才一萬兩千的國人有這樣的一個抽到的機會那總機會也才一千四百四十萬能不能人數增加或者是這個金額增加或者是人數跟金額都增加來說明一下"},{"start":348.331,"end":369.167,"text":"是那跟委員報告那目前因為我們是做整體方案的一個規劃那到時候如果說這個方因為最主要是為了鼓勵民眾平日來旅遊住宿然後尤其是在生日的時候也可以來住宿慶生不管是登記的人數或是金額"},{"start":370.047,"end":396.674,"text":"能夠增加因為才1440萬而已這個我們來努力看看可不可以再增加啦幫大家慶生是好事那我也要跟部長跟觀光署來提醒不只是中央來努力的加碼促進國旅而且要要求地方政府也要加碼而且也要要求業者也要加碼中央地方業者一起加碼一起來推動國內的旅遊部長最後讓你說明一下"},{"start":397.794,"end":415.477,"text":"如果立法院支持我們的預算我們預算確定之後我們各個方案都會找地方政府跟我們一些旅行相關的業者大家一起來合作把加碼再做到更大中央政府出一部分的錢地方政府再加碼然後企業再加碼讓民眾可以享受到更好的優惠"},{"start":416.178,"end":437.538,"text":"好 部長最後一點時間我們來討論一下道路安全改善的進度它其實仍然是有待加強那今年的1至8月交通事故的死亡人數是1819人是對比去年同期減少了6.1但是我要提醒部長人數雖然略有這個下降但是"},{"start":438.198,"end":454.481,"text":"事故的件數是增加了增加了4994件然後受傷的人數也增加增加了5045人這相關的原因以及要怎麼去處理這個交通部必須要來做一個進一步的處理"},{"start":455.402,"end":481.77,"text":"那我們來看看義照市路段的計畫結束未來交通部要怎麼去落實相關的交通安全在過去義照市路段的計畫執行的方式它是由地方縣市政府來提報義照市的路段然後運營所來研議相關的地點跟方案由公路局來進行補助運營所再來追蹤改善的這樣的一個進度"},{"start":482.25,"end":509.778,"text":"那這是過去那現在我們要推動區域中心3.0的道安改善計畫各縣市政府各縣市的地方政府主導而且來申請中央的補助那提出改善的地點跟規劃的方案那應援所各區的區域中心來推動改善的這種方案的交流技術的支持還有分析及人員的培訓等等那我要提醒部長就是說"},{"start":511.238,"end":525.327,"text":"交通安全改善不只是說只需要經費的一個補助了而且是更需要有效的這種改善的方案那過去的改善方案主要是依靠一兆式路段的這種改善的計畫那"},{"start":526.608,"end":553.758,"text":"現在區域3.0確實是能夠有效解決道路安全改善的財源跟權責劃分的一個基本的問題但是也面臨新的問題就是說各地縣市政府他們對於交通安全的技術或者是觀念的不同或是改善的意願那這個改善的成效變成是各地方人士人民大家所關切的一個議題那"},{"start":556.568,"end":572.12,"text":"為了要確保這些改善的績效通常是需要3到5年的一個追蹤那這個也需要中央來追蹤那區域3.0的道安改善計畫如何確保這些安全改善的目標跟措施能夠落實"},{"start":573.041,"end":600.75,"text":"而且維持改善的成效這是一個大家很關心的議題讓你簡單的說明一下是 報告委員考核跟查核的部分中央還是會持續來做雖然說道安3.0之後會有一個區域中心那另外技術面如果需要中央來協助中央也會來做協助那另外經費的補助當然未來地方財源會比較充裕那中央也會有一定的補助的能力那在考核跟查核之後我們會來做後面的這個補助的方案來檢討"},{"start":603.229,"end":622.731,"text":"最後一分鐘我有幾個基本建議交通部曾經宣示死亡的人數必須要每年降低5%這是過去我要求的區域中心3.0大安改善計畫在推動地方安全改善的時候也要將死傷人數減少納入具體的一個改善目標"},{"start":623.672,"end":642.99,"text":"第二 運營所應該協助各地的縣市政府提出年度道路交通安全執行計畫納入事故分析的結果還有改善需求以及相關的具體措施而且針對人員培訓歷年交通改善的這種情況及追蹤狀況要納入考量"},{"start":643.57,"end":657.622,"text":"還有另外針對交通改善資源比較少的區域要進行盤點來納入考量避免資源比較少的區域或縣市改善資源不足的這種情況這個請部長全力的一個督促好沒問題謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"166174","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166174","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ba42ffd062fbea8dfc775d9111cd00729f4d34277fbf0e24746c55bad50cc4f2541701c7b896d2c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:22:46 - 09:25:02","影片長度":"00:02:16","會議時間":"2025-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長、教育部及內政部就「『行人優先交通安全行動綱領』實施兩年來改善『行人地獄』具體成效暨台灣測速照相機密度精準度、速限制度精進檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部部長就「淡江大橋通車活動規劃辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n三、繼續審查(一)委員邱若華等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐富癸等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十六條條文修正草案」案及(四)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；審查(五)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查(一)委員邱若華等20人擬具「大眾捷運法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「大眾捷運法部分條文修正草案」案及(三)委員李昆澤等20人擬具「大眾捷運法第三十九條、第四十三條及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n五、繼續審查(一)委員盧縣一等18人擬具「鐵路法第二十六條及第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(三)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「鐵路法第五十六條之四、第六十七條之三及第六十八條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等25人擬具「鐵路法第五十六條之五條文修正草案」案、(五)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員廖先翔等25人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員張宏陸等18人擬具「鐵路法第六十五條條文修正草案」案及(八)委員洪孟楷等19人擬具「鐵路法第六十八條之四及第七十二條條文修正草案」案；審查(九)委員邱鎮軍等23人擬具「鐵路法增訂第六十八條之四條文草案」案。\n【本次會議開會事由一、二之詢答後，進行法案之逐條審查；開會事由三第(五)案及開會事由五第(九)案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-04","start_time":"2025-12-04T09:22:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-04T09:25:02+08:00","duration":136,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-4-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.3303437500000002,"end":4.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.840343750000001,"end":45.627218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.728468750000005,"end":133.93409375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.925,"end":16.056,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位首長跟委員本期今天提的是道交條例第31支1條的修正草案那當然道交條例第31支1條主要是針對過去比較強調的是開車跟騎車手持手機的相關的罰款"},{"start":16.977,"end":36.02,"text":"那本年今天提出來是針對開車騎車期間持有香煙抽煙等等這個行為來加重相關的罰款因為我想抽煙本身當然對他個人的行為對他個人健康有影響之外比較多民眾在反映的第一個當然騎車的部分對周邊的旁邊的這些二手煙的傷害比較大"},{"start":36.46,"end":62.331,"text":"那另外對於開車騎車的時候他因為點煙、持煙或者是因為香煙掉落等等的有的最近包含說加熱煙包含電子煙等等的管制非常的也沒有很明確所以很多人開車騎車期間可能不只傳統香煙他包含加熱煙包含電子煙等等的都會成為他開車期間分析的原因之一那本期引用了2019年日本有一份這個在日本流行病學雜誌的一個長期研究"},{"start":62.691,"end":88.351,"text":"他招募了九萬七千名的這個日本的居民年齡從40到79歲做了一個20年的1993到2013年長期的追蹤那這邊的這個期刊的論文的最後的結論是比起不吸菸者如果每天吸菸少於20隻者發生交通事故的死亡率比不吸菸者高出32%那如果一天超過20隻就是有眼影重大的這些群體"},{"start":88.991,"end":102.803,"text":"他在交通事故開車騎車發生事故死亡率比不吸菸者高出了54%所以不管從國民健康的角度還是從這個開車騎車用路人安全的角度本席都認為這個開車騎車期間來吸菸或者點菸的行為"},{"start":107.387,"end":133.433,"text":"比起這個開車騎車時間持有手機或講電話的話我想這個他的這個狀況影響交通安全的情況是一致的所以本級認為說在相關的罰環標準上面在開車騎車持有手機罰環3000元但是開車騎車在點煙或抽煙的這個罰環只有600元我想這個相關的法例距離有點大所以本級把這個相關的罰環提高那以上說明希望這個委員會能夠支持以上 謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}