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士級是專門委員胡士林教育部學生事務及特殊教育司專門委員許惠清"},{"start":1916.09,"end":1931.265,"text":"專門委員陳佩君今年發展署組長蔡君平好非常有朝氣今年發展署科長許紹琴你好"},{"start":1935.94,"end":1950.001,"text":"為了讓大家能夠順利表達意見我們做如下的處理每位貴賓的發言時間6分鐘在第5分鐘時我們會有鈴聲提醒6分鐘結束就會有一個結束的鈴聲"},{"start":1952.481,"end":1978.107,"text":"那專家學者的發言是以簽名先後順序為準現場發言及書面資料立法院會做成紀錄刊登在公報上面在場的立法委員如有發表意見請於時時前來做登記我們也會在會議當中穿插進行並以在場委員登記順序發言那委員如果要登記請到發言台上來登記"},{"start":1980.846,"end":1990.483,"text":"現在先請教育部常務次長朱俊彰就現行規定執行現況還有相關問題提出說明時間5分鐘請"},{"start":1996.617,"end":2017.65,"text":"主席 各位委員 在場各位學者專家 女士先生 大家好今天本人應邀到立法院教育及文化委員會聆聽各位先進的著見 自感榮幸以加緊就本部相關措施提出報告 敬請各位委員及先進指導與支持"},{"start":2018.61,"end":2041.132,"text":"高等教育為國家發展的重要核心高教治理不僅關係到校務運作的品質更是影響學生權益的保障教學研究能量以及社會對於高教的信任更需要建立透明健全的治理機制並持續精進運作的模式才能為師生打造良好的教學環境以及學習環境"},{"start":2042.814,"end":2067.98,"text":"在面对全球产业进入及社会快速变迁的多重冲击之下高教议题如学生自治参与 校长临选制度师生校务参与等面临相关的挑战为了维护学生自治权师生参与校务权益与高教的公共性以下仅就强化学生自治组织校园事务参与保障教师及学生参与校务权益"},{"start":2068.88,"end":2097.819,"text":"以及強化本部監督機制建置多元溝通管道等議題進行說明一在強化學生自治組織校園事務參與部分大學法第33條明文規定大學應輔導學生成立學生會及其他相關自治組織並依學生會請求代收會費同時保障學生出代表出席與學業生活及訂定獎程相關規章之會議以及建立學生"},{"start":2099.701,"end":2117.482,"text":"申訴制度因此學校應扶持校園學生知識發展並保障學生參與校務決策與公共事務學生會的成立目的是為了增進學生在校的學習效果自治能力強化其公民素養理解民主生活之實踐"},{"start":2118.783,"end":2140.34,"text":"學校對於學生自治組織可從輔導者改為協助者的角色必要時提供學生會資源協助讓學生會得以共好角度來參與校務本部青年署訂定的大專校院學生會運作原則確認了學生會在規章的訂定選舉人士選任"},{"start":2142.902,"end":2163.639,"text":"財務管理等運作事項的自主性未來除以行政指導持續引導學校強化學生自主性之外亦將透過各校機校將補助的機制等政策工具促進學校落實由學生自治學生會運作事項又學生對於學校的"},{"start":2164.699,"end":2185.749,"text":"懲處其他措施或決議不符時亦可透過學校的校內的申訴機制提起申訴倘對學校申訴的結果不符可再依法向主管機關就行政主任提起訴願或訴訟以保障學生的受教權益二 在保障教師及學生參與校務"},{"start":2190.702,"end":2206.549,"text":"公立大学校长临选委员会的成员可包含学生及教师代表第15条有关校务会议之规定也明定学生及教师及学生参与校教务会议的相关权益近期"},{"start":2207.629,"end":2229.456,"text":"各界也關注大學行政權限與校務治理的平衡教師團體及學生團體表示這些議題的討論可進一步強化校長遴選或校務會議的決策透明度與正當性為了充分了解各界的需求及意見教育部於2014年舉辦多場高等教育經營與發展的座談會議"},{"start":2230.476,"end":2251.394,"text":"持续与学生团体教师团体及学校代表进行意见交流来凝聚共识对于强化师生对于校务运作的参与以及充分表达意见本部乐见其成并持续与各界进行广泛的交流征询意见以求共识在强化本部监督及建制多元管道"},{"start":2252.955,"end":2270.312,"text":"方面為了確保大學的辦學品質能夠維護學生及社會公共利益本部也透過相關的法令來明定學校在校的透明財務運作等方面的責任來提升自己的校人 如透過大學法師校法等相關資訊公開及財務監督的機制來協助 亦透過高校"},{"start":2275.885,"end":2300.535,"text":"高等私立高級中等以上學校天堂條例來強化辦學困難及財務嚴重惡化的私立學校查爾夫島在溝通機制方面本部也以跨部會進行相關的協助也與大專校院校長會議教師團體學生團體透過完整管道進行充分的溝通以上敬請各位指導"},{"start":2307.409,"end":2335.783,"text":"好 謝謝朱市長的報告說出了教育部目前最新的大學法的一個修正方向好 那我們現在請簽名順序第一位的專家學者全國教育產業總共會的林碩傑副理事長發言那兩邊都可以做發言就方便就好"},{"start":2354.573,"end":2363.718,"text":"主席各位先進大家早安今天立法院這個公聽會主要是琢磨在有關"},{"start":2365.219,"end":2387.561,"text":"大學自治跟校園民主來加以探討那首先我們全校長針對大學法裡面的第9條跟第15條來跟大家做一些報告第一個就是有關大學法第9條主要是有關校長遴選這個部分大學法目前有關校長遴選委員會的組成比例"},{"start":2388.683,"end":2414.623,"text":"目前学校校务会议推选之学校代表是占了全部原额的五分之二我们全教场认为说为了要尊重大学自治的精神我们认为说应该要过半也就是说我们建议学校校务会议推选之学校代表应该要占全部委员的五分之三"},{"start":2415.888,"end":2445.171,"text":"应该要占全部委员的五分之三而不是现在的五分之二那这五分之三里面我们又再建议了教师代表不得少于其中的三分之二就是这五分之三里面教师代表又不得少于其中的三分之二各位临选委员会如果能透过这种方式来降低具有行政职的教职员的比例的话那么"},{"start":2446.001,"end":2473.642,"text":"可避免特定人士或者是校长透过行政聘用来掌握特定票数而且如果我们增加实际增加教室的比例实质的代表人数的话将可避免临选委员会的结果跟学校这个初选的结果差异过大那这样就无法反映真实的意见了"},{"start":2474.892,"end":2501.439,"text":"另外就是為了防止外部力量或者是政治力量不當介入大學校長臨選而且要保障學術自由跟大學自治這邊我們建議說刪除教育部或者是地方政府臨派的代表我們建議刪除教育部或地方政府臨派代表此外就是在公立大學"},{"start":2503.045,"end":2530.899,"text":"遴選的這個事項裡面它是大學自治很重要的一個項目所以它的有關它的組織運作辦法其實應該是由大學校會來定定的而不是由外界來定甚至說大學校會定的遊戲規則跟學校的遴選委員會定的遊戲規則兩者又不一甚至兩者互相衝突矛盾那這個是很奇怪的如果是這樣的話恐怕會製造不但干預遴選的空間"},{"start":2533.41,"end":2555.847,"text":"第二个是有关第15条有关校务会议部分校务会议中具有行政职的当然委员常常又于行政伦理而无法客观的表达意见为了避免这种现象并且使校务会议的决策更为周延我们建议教师代表应该从现在总数的二分之一提高为三分之二"},{"start":2557.204,"end":2584.122,"text":"提高为三分之二另外就是校会议代表不应该是只有教授副教授我们认为说校内的助理教授还有弱势族群譬如说原住民等应该有保障席次另外就是学生代表应该有如果选上之后应该要接受议事会规则会议规范等相关法规的培训提升参与校会的能力跟品质除了第九条跟第十五条之外另外我们提到有关第十九条"},{"start":2585.734,"end":2612.337,"text":"大學自治是為了保障學術自由那學術自由的核心是大學教師的研究發表和講學自由但是這個只有在教師的工作權受到充分保障的時候學術自由才能受到保障所以如果大學可以任意訂定教師的停聘或是不續聘的條件那教師面對不合理壓力的時候當然也難以堅守所謂的學術自由"},{"start":2613.783,"end":2632.976,"text":"各位,大学自治的基础在于校园教师能够充分表达意见,教师团体能够有效运作,并且能够代表弱势的教师发声,而且大学有良好的沟通跟决策机制,而且要能避免校方对教师不当的要求。"},{"start":2633.988,"end":2659.571,"text":"但是目前多数的学校并不存在上面这些所有条件往往由校方行政权决定一切用不合理的规定来压榨教师并且用大学自治的名义回避监督这种校园专制现象不单是教师个人的损伤更是对校园民主还有学术自由的其伤"},{"start":2660.663,"end":2684.697,"text":"教師法裡面對教師工作權有一定的保障所以不應該對大學教師的有差別待遇而減少他的保障那教師在訂定聘約的時候一定是弱勢的那一方如果透過聘約來排除教師法的適用那教師法能夠調穩就形同具穩各位升等不應該用來當作一個"},{"start":2686.844,"end":2709.543,"text":"所谓教师的聘用的一个依据或是说当作评价教师研究成果的唯一的标准大学法第十九条排除了教师法某些对工作权的重要保障对学校空白授权弹性过大成为许多教师不当要求的根源我们建议各位我们建议第十九条全条删除"},{"start":2710.609,"end":2730.914,"text":"我們建議第19條全條刪除來保障所謂的大學自治跟校園民主以上 謝謝好 謝謝林碩傑副理事長我們現在請眷教總的楊亦菲副秘書長發言"},{"start":2735.717,"end":2751.635,"text":"委員各位先進大家早安感謝委員安排大缺乏的修法的公聽會學長總代表全國的教師以及我們的會員來表達一些立場針對大缺乏的部分我想第一個要談的就是這次改革的訴求就是校園會議應該要公開透明"},{"start":2752.376,"end":2780.853,"text":"我們在這邊呼籲在修法的過程當中校務會議裡面的教師代表應該要扣除兼任行政教師的身分也就是他是兼任行政某部分他也是代表了行政職務所以應該讓專任的教師能夠占多數還有第二個要提的是學生的代表其實應該要數量要能夠再提高因為我們在談大學治理的部分學生也是非常重要的一塊所以學長總在這邊呼籲學生代表數其實也應該要提高再來會談到私校"},{"start":2781.573,"end":2798.743,"text":"合併的過程當中現行的法令值授權給董事會同意即可但是因為私校的董事會目前比較缺乏所謂的公共監督而合併是攸關全校師生我們建議應該要經校務會議同意通過才能進行這樣的一個整併那第二個要提出的是勞動條件的保障"},{"start":2799.423,"end":2812.379,"text":"熊小總過去在中小學裡面一直倡議就是教師評鑑對於教育的現場來說某部分是一個災難那這個災難其實在大學端已經實現很久所以我們其實公開呼籲這一次的修法應該讓教師專業輔導系統去取代教師評鑑"},{"start":2815.903,"end":2832.713,"text":"畢竟現在有很多我們常聽很多的私校會以評鑑來要求教室要配合一些奇怪的事物包含他們的補助數量啊招生人數啊社群的按讚數等都會列入教室評鑑的一個評比這對老師的勞動條件保障是相當不好的那再來是"},{"start":2833.773,"end":2859.766,"text":"監督教育部其實主動公布了大專兼任教師他終點費不得低於公校但其實大專的治理同時也包含公校與私校但在私校與大專的學校卻沒有同等的規定這個對私校老師來說其實也是一種不公平所以我們也呼籲其實在私校老師的兼任終點費他應該也不得低於公校第三點要談的是私校治理的公共化"},{"start":2861.286,"end":2882.692,"text":"現行的相關法令裡面 私下捐款可以去抵稅那主管機關其實也應該要有監督之責因為過去常發生很多黑心的企業他以教育之名去行逃稅之事法令能不能授權主管機關去監督這些稅務跟經程的流向確保這些錢跟財物是用在我們的教育身上是非常重要那第四點 全國總統要提出的是"},{"start":2883.852,"end":2908.261,"text":"過去我們常聽到因為少子化很多的一些學校他會用一些錯誤的名額來爭取國家的補助款甚至曾經紅擊國際社會的用產學專班讓這些來台就學的學生打黑工他都是損壞台灣國際教育形象的重大案件所以期待在大學法修法的過程當中應該要有一個相關的制度來"},{"start":2909.822,"end":2933.719,"text":"避免這樣的一個現象再次發生第五要談的是怎麼確保私校退場學生的權益大學把修法之後教育部有沒有辦法可以主動協助或監督在治理上有困難的學校因為老師跟學生往往都是最後才知道學校要被整併的那一端所以他們的意見基本上已經沒有辦法傳達這對於整個所謂的"},{"start":2935.78,"end":2938.908,"text":"私生治理還有教育的主體其實都是一種傷害"},{"start":2940.971,"end":2966.761,"text":"第二點其實我們要談的是也是大家其實常常忘記的就是這一次的修法請社會大眾也請教育部一定要正視大學常遇的性平意識跟相關機制我們必須說可能大學是全台灣教育學士裡面最沒有性平意識的一個常遇其實大家仔細盤點可能社會也忘得很快2003年中部某大學教授對學生施以性騷擾爆出來"},{"start":2967.882,"end":2988.263,"text":"同年度也有台大的李興教授也是用性騷擾但是他誘導學生成為交往關係東華大學的某女老師遭同校的教授性侵甚至到2005年師大的足球案以及2005年張世大四位輔資相關教授的性騷案這些案子在社會上都曾經只出現過一兩天然後就沒有人在討論"},{"start":2990.305,"end":3008.176,"text":"前陣子更傳出了國立台北教育大學已婚的教授跟現場的老師校長學生發生婚外情的關係那以至於到前教育部次長台大教授的性平的爭議案件我們都一再看到大學的場域應該是作為國家治理一個很重要的地方可是"},{"start":3009.096,"end":3024.873,"text":"性品或是相關的學術道德我們必須講台灣的大學其實還落後太多太多這些案件往往被重重提起最後相關的程序就是當事人很容易退休甚至是請辭然後隔了一兩天就沒有了可是同樣的案件對比在"},{"start":3025.854,"end":3039.169,"text":"大專以下的場域各位可以看到這些老師不是被射死就是完全的工作場域被阻斷那我們不是說對國中小老師太嚴而是大學作為一個自治他應該用最高的道德標準來檢視那這些"},{"start":3041.271,"end":3056.002,"text":"甚至我們可以稱這次大學是一個全市性平的重災區也包含了部分論文指導的私生關係的霸凌這些東西都藏在大學自治裡面被包裹著一層黑布卻沒有被社會看見"},{"start":3056.983,"end":3081.921,"text":"我們期待提高學生跟教師的參與能讓大學的場域回到一個乾淨而且能夠作為台灣教育完整示範的場域而不是用一個大學的自治然後無限上綱這些錯誤的程序去損害所謂師生的權益我們也期待台灣大學的修法能夠讓台灣的學術自由能夠讓台灣的師生治理能夠朝向一個更好的方式以上是全教總的幾點建議謝謝大家"},{"start":3086.772,"end":3091.269,"text":"好 謝謝楊亦菲副秘書長我們現在請范雲委員發言"},{"start":3099.419,"end":3119.133,"text":"感謝召委現場我們有非常多包含公私立大學協進會的理事長還有公私立大學的校長任校長趙校長還有我們的學生青年代表有非常多位還有我們的工會的代表們大家早安"},{"start":3119.953,"end":3136.626,"text":"我是立委范雲首先謝謝我們那個召委安排這一場大學法的修法公聽會那我是從上一屆開始就跟我們的很多的團體一起推動大學法的修法"},{"start":3137.186,"end":3156.904,"text":"那上一届我们教育委员的跨党派共识就是要提升学生在校会中的参与权益那当时很幸运的当时也得到教育部当时的次长的支持不过很可惜后来因为沟通不足所以上一届并没有办法通过那这一届呢"},{"start":3157.664,"end":3186.844,"text":"就是非常多的委员也非常的关心大学法我自己也尝试提出一个比较完整的版本我的版本已经一读通过待会会印给大家欢迎大家参考在这个过程中我也看到其实我们在大学法的改革要推动除了保障师生权益之外学校的行政管理阶层也有看到大学法有些不应该管那么多"},{"start":3187.344,"end":3216.141,"text":"就是教育部都是依照大學法來跟大學互動有些不需要管的也應該可以放寬那當然需要有底線的部分是哪些那也需要更多的討論那今天呢除了跟大家講一下就是之前我們的努力之外那也要跟大家講就是2022年當時是有學生全版出教育委員會那2024年那後來我們也納入了教師方面的觀點"},{"start":3217.562,"end":3237.828,"text":"最近我所提的版本也有跟多位校長還有大學的校長主管教授學生會團體有多方諮詢希望這個版本真的能夠一起讓大家真正邁入21世紀而且可能要應對的是未來20年的大學狀況為什麼"},{"start":3239.668,"end":3254.697,"text":"因為從上一次大規模修法到現在2005年到現在真的是20年了所以現場有校長在也有主管在大家可以想像20年後校長不會是現在的校長學生可能也"},{"start":3256.659,"end":3273.554,"text":"那天跟我我的版本有100位學生會長聯署當天好幾位一起來感謝他們支持我的三大方向好幾位發言的時候都告訴我們說現在的學生會長告訴我們說2005年是他們出生的那一年"},{"start":3274.655,"end":3301.486,"text":"也就是說我們現在要修的版本其實為了下一個世代那希望這個角度可以讓大家暫時跳脫自己現在的位置能夠想的是未來的校長未來的學生未來的教師怎麼樣才能夠有一個更開放更能夠保障大家那教學品質跟教育品質的一個大學法我想"},{"start":3301.806,"end":3328.794,"text":"到時候的教育部對不對真正實行的時候可能次長也不是我們現在我的意思是說都要好多的年都不是我們現在了那所以我想從這個角度來看就不會糾結在現在大家覺得修法之後是不是師生的監督更多那大家擔心是不是校務會議會被癱瘓都可以務實的來討論我相信師生跟行政主管沒有人希望"},{"start":3329.654,"end":3345.25,"text":"修改了之後校務會一癱瘓然後大學不會是一個更好的大學所以我的主張就是開放彈性新高校那開放很重要彈性很重要可是它要確保高校的品質比現在更好那就是要讓師生的參與能夠增加"},{"start":3349.414,"end":3373.07,"text":"所以我的版本三大方向刚刚讲了开放弹性新高教强化师生权益还有完善治理跟监督的机制如果待会拿不到版本的话也可以跟我办公室要也谢谢刚刚讲到的有破百位学生会长联署还有二十多位议长联署相挺要修大学法"},{"start":3373.49,"end":3402.081,"text":"那什么叫开放弹性新高教其实教育部那个法令真的太久没有改包含我们都知道很多的国家他们现在看到AI时代的来临很多的时候学生未必要完成大学学位他可能在中间对人生的方向有一些迟疑可是呢他如果休学离开那现在都有休学年限的限制我们希望能够"},{"start":3403.181,"end":3419.473,"text":"給予他一個副學士修滿兩年那大學現在都在推動終身學習那他今天如果是輔大畢業或者是就是正大畢業正大修兩年那為什麼已經是終身學習了不能讓他只要拿到"},{"start":3419.853,"end":3445.769,"text":"副学士的学位终身可以回来完成学位那这样子就让学生不需要就是不断地延长休业的期限或者是他不想要念的时候强迫他回来然后就是浪费了这个高教的资源跟机会就只是要一张文凭就是混毕业所以我想大学学制的改革也是这一波我们可以讨论的所以我的版本有增加大学治理的弹性"},{"start":3446.529,"end":3472.447,"text":"包含教育实验单位行政主管的资格专业发展制度的部分还有毕业学分跟学期周数应该由大学制定这点教育部应该都不敢放宽可是你可以看到不管是美国澳洲德国没有一个国家的大学毕业学分跟周数没有一点弹性的我想这部分那当然"},{"start":3473.428,"end":3493.412,"text":"如何增訂公司校合併的彈性讓它有更多的誘因又能保障師生的權益也是我的版本重視的最後提升高等教育的資源應該是我做一個關心高教的我還是覺得我們目前給高等教育的資源不夠多這是可以努力的"},{"start":3493.972,"end":3510.873,"text":"強化師生的權益這上一屆我們其實就討論過了今天就不再講那我的部分比較特別的是針對學生會有個學生會專章我想這部分學生會我們如果跟世界百大比的話台灣學生會擁有的權益真的是少得可憐"},{"start":3511.474,"end":3535.51,"text":"所以不要說學生不關心學生自治是因為目前的學生會還是在權益上像一個家家酒他的參與並沒有辦法改善他自身的情況我們從師大的那個強迫抽血案學生會長一直站出來可是卻不到學校的校方的重視你可以看到學生權益在臺灣真的需要更多的保障"},{"start":3536.39,"end":3554.2,"text":"使如何完善校長遴選強化公正第三方的監督資訊公開這個都是也謝謝上週教育部的回覆對修法持一個開放的態度我也會持續跟各界溝通也希望教育部能夠盡快提出教育部的版本"},{"start":3554.54,"end":3570.311,"text":"那競速一起修法回應各界的期待那再一次已經20年沒有修了謝謝朝委我們現在是為了未來的20年下一個世代都不會是我們現場的這些人那我們如何能夠讓高教有更好的品質"},{"start":3571.072,"end":3593.752,"text":"要不然大家在国教的时候这么的努力家长这么的关心进入高教之后再也没有人关心公私立大学的品质非常的可惜因为那是这些成年人他们都是有公民的权利可以公投的宝贵的青春那要给他怎么样一个值得的教育以上谢谢好 谢谢范语委员"},{"start":3595.957,"end":3619.286,"text":"請私立科技大學院校院協進會鄭道明理事長發言主席還有這個今天各位與會的這個學生大家好大家早安"},{"start":3622.263,"end":3650.806,"text":"針對這次公聽會我想在之前已經有很多單位包括委員們提出不同的大學法修改的一個版本那麼我們協會也對我們所有的會員學校針對這些修改的版本請他們發表這個意見高見那麼在這幾個裡面大家第一個大家對促進校園的民主然後讓學生參與的這個程度教室參與的程度"},{"start":3651.426,"end":3678.803,"text":"的增加大家支持的一個態度但是也要考量各個不同學校它的一個大小學生數還有老師的數不一樣這裡面的一些目前外面的版本的一些想法我們的學會我們這個協會的會員也提出不同的看法第一個就是說提到就是說"},{"start":3680.524,"end":3703.937,"text":"未兼行政主管職務的人數要以不低於這個這個少於教師代表人數三分之二為原則那不管這原則有多少那目前跟各位報告在我們學會裡面的這一個會員的學校老師數呢小於100的這個大概有21%"},{"start":3706.138,"end":3723.799,"text":"那我這邊舉一個例子,譬如說我們有一個學校,這個學校大概在60人左右,那麼它的行政單位跟學術單位,特別是學術單位的院長還有系主任,這些都必須要是教師來擔任主管,那這樣就有30位了。"},{"start":3724.62,"end":3750.817,"text":"如果再加上二级主管也是由教师担任各位想想看全校只有58位教师含校长至少超过30位所以要到达一个很高的比例以不兼任行政教师来进入教师会当教师的代表在不同的学校它是有它的困难度的所以要这边跟各位说明"},{"start":3752.11,"end":3774.118,"text":"第二個大家普遍的反應就是說對於學生參與的代表這個比例增加大家也是支持的但是他們同時也想到就是說那是不是相對的減少教師跟職員他一個代表的比例跟人數的降低學生當然他們的權利能夠表達這個對學校來講是相當好"},{"start":3777.719,"end":3804.976,"text":"但是對於長期在學校經營而且要待很久了的這群人當他們的這個比例降低的時候是不是也需要再商榷所以對於目前來講我們支持提高但提高這個部分還需要大家多少這是大家一起的共識第三個會員反映比較多的地方是有關於私校的一個辦學"},{"start":3806.417,"end":3820.748,"text":"私校的辦學就是因為它在很多地方它特別具有效率這個效率有時候它的辦學建構在董事會當時在創校的時候對於這個學校它的一個理念"},{"start":3821.849,"end":3844.961,"text":"那這樣的一個理念要落實很重要的就是校長他本身他的學士才能跟這樣理念的一個認同他是有這樣治校的一個本事那目前來講有提出這些改革的版本是想要把這個私校校長遴選的一些模式已經在這個特別是遴選委員會代表的組成已經跟"},{"start":3845.481,"end":3873.259,"text":"比較像公立大學的方式目前私校是根據私校法的方式由法人董事會來組成遴選委員會來選出心目中好的能夠治校的一個校長我們這些會員學校其實對於是不是要往公立學校這個方面這樣稍微靠近組成遴選委員會他們是比較持保留的態度"},{"start":3874.019,"end":3895.197,"text":"大概這三個面向我們希望能夠代表私立科技大學校院協定會讓我們立法的委員們還有教育部的長官代表能夠知道我想這樣也許能夠保障我們私校在很多地方辦學特色是可以跟公立大學不一樣的以上報告"},{"start":3898.854,"end":3922.128,"text":"好 謝謝鄭道明理事長代表磁力科技大學院校發言那現在請社團法人中華學生自治協會盧俊穎理事發言等一下也可以說張曉涵委員請從下一個生意集會"},{"start":3926.482,"end":3948.849,"text":"好 感謝主席 然後感謝立法院的邀請及在場各位先進 大家好我先做個簡單的自我介紹我目前擔任的是中華學生知識協會的理事然後今天很榮幸可以用這個身份來現場聆聽各位然後跟各位前輩探討大學法修法的建議同時我還有另外一個身份是目前一手市立大專院校的學生代表"},{"start":3950.523,"end":3965.451,"text":"然後我也是來自南部的小孩然後是學生自治的第一線然後我想我可以以本會理事及學生代表的身份針對學生自治的現況提出一些見解"},{"start":3967.352,"end":3987.7,"text":"我想先針對影響學生知識地位最相關的條文就是來自於大學法內文的規定就是學校應輔導學生成立由選舉產生之學生會及其他相關知識的組織我對目前來說的話這個條文它應該著重的點在於說輔導兩個字到底說輔導兩個字它的範圍到底是多大它的權限應該多大"},{"start":3994.724,"end":4010.318,"text":"因為他輔導兩個字的話是直接授權學校介入學生事務的權利但是在如此模糊的空間的話學生代表在捍衛學生誌的時候將會面臨到一定的難題大學法內文對學生代表的保障是少之又少"},{"start":4012.032,"end":4029.306,"text":"大部分是交給各校去制定但是條文的制定它已經很多年了學生代表的處境卻越發困難例如使用空間及財務自主的問題其實往很多學校去看學校在處理學生自治組織的空間往往就是有就好了"},{"start":4029.986,"end":4052.553,"text":"不考慮是否能夠使用及地理位置是否方便及是否的夠用觀察起來的話跟各位報告大概會有四種情況第一種是擁有獨立寬敞且適合辦公及學生洽工的活動空間但這種事情的話縱觀全國大眾院校其實是少之又少的第二個擁有獨立空間但地理位置偏遠且不宜辦公的環境"},{"start":4053.837,"end":4072.313,"text":"第三種是無獨立空間辦公室與其他社團或團體共用之場地第四種以上皆無學生會沒有運作空間更有勝者只提供堆放雜物的倉庫放一張桌子兩張摺疊椅給予學生會就說有提供學生會獨立運作的空間"},{"start":4073.214,"end":4097.423,"text":"但學生代表在爭取應有之空間時無法受到條文的保障我想這是我們需要調整的地方如果沒有學生會可以運作空間的話那我們彈劾學生自治再來大學法修法內文的時候裡面也沒有保障學生會的財務自主性只有提到學校應依學生會之請求代收會費我們先不論請求兩個字是下對上"},{"start":4098.843,"end":4115.321,"text":"可能會矮化學生自治組織的地位文中只有規範學校應代收會費卻沒有保障學生會費再交由學生會自主管理我想這已違背當初學生會費繳交同學的初衷因為到頭來學生會費的決定權還是在學校手上"},{"start":4116.297,"end":4144.526,"text":"再來目前關於校長遴選委員會學生代表席次之分配情形全國並無統一標準即使是在公立大學也無共識分配給學生代表席次最普遍的話就是一席而已學生身為學校的一份子他應該在校長遴選委員會及學校務會議上他都應該佔有一定部分的席次不然的話他無法為學生謀取一些福祉一些福利以及捍衛學生的權利"},{"start":4146.046,"end":4169.732,"text":"學生代表成為在各方利益分配下被犧牲的弱勢眾上所述本會認為說需要五項措施可以供各位代表參考一 明定學生會費應全權交由學生會自主管理除得學生自治組織要求外義務應代收幫忙"},{"start":4170.572,"end":4198.16,"text":"代收會費外不得干預學生會經費運作及相關硬性財務之保管二保障學生自治組織空間獨立且可運作三不管公司立校長臨選委員會或校務會議的代表學生代表是席次應載於大學法中明定其產生方式且應公平公正公開且經由學生自行辦理直接選舉或經學生自治組織推派學生代表出席"},{"start":4199.605,"end":4219.624,"text":"同時 明定相關的鼓勵機制以鼓勵學生參與校務會議及校長遴選鞏固學生參與校務之權益實現校園民主拒絕遴選黑箱四 校務會議及所有學生有關學生代表之委員會因明定或特定方式載明與會代表提案之權利而"},{"start":4220.879,"end":4247.271,"text":"所提案之议案或决议除规定应于保障之隐私之议案或事件之外其余经去识别化应积极主动公告于全校师生学校应特别增设监督校务之进行之委员会且主席不得为学校主管或特定议案利害关系人其中应考量的是学生代表及校外委员的席次以上谢谢"},{"start":4252.78,"end":4268.375,"text":"好 謝謝盧靜穎女士的發言我們現在請何明果先生他是慈力大學校園協進會的理事長下一位請林明彥教授準備"},{"start":4269.401,"end":4294.35,"text":"主席各位貴賓我在這邊非常高興有這個機會代表私立大學就有這個大學法修法做一些說明首先我們要支持就是支持私立科技大學曾道明校長所講的其實私立科技大學跟私立大學都是私立大學我們大概總共加起來的學校大概有目前看有85家大概是全部大學的一半以上"},{"start":4295.51,"end":4323.985,"text":"在这边我们把我们的一些会员学校在讨论了后归纳一些大的方向来跟各位说明首先就是要强调在大学法修法的时候我们要注意到大学制度相关法律的修正应遵循宪法之精神尤其关于大学制度属于宪法第11条讲学自由之基本权保障范围经司法院解释各有其重要性第二点要权责相符"},{"start":4324.945,"end":4338.677,"text":"學校的各種組織架構與相互作用的時候應該注意到權責的相符例如校務會議代表制組成雖應具多元代表性但是權責負擔在成員比例上不成比例應該避免因為這個"},{"start":4341.519,"end":4364.952,"text":"大學尤其是私立大學它的經營是跟公立大學是不一樣的我們由董事會出資所以當做了一些決定以後對於學校的經營或是方向有了什麼重大的改變的時候校會代表並沒有負責並不需要負責有權利但是必須要負責這個應該要避免第三點落實民主大學法相關的修正落實民主而不是民粹"},{"start":4367.253,"end":4395.002,"text":"第四點就是公私而言公私立大學的建立和組成方式完全不同私立大學依私校法則鼓勵私人興學的本職即以董事會之意助而興學則應與公立大學的組織作用與作用之規範有所區別私立大學尤其是私立大學校長受董事會的指派或者是選舉有一個辦學的宗旨這個辦學的宗旨就是"},{"start":4396.102,"end":4399.648,"text":"由這個這個是董事會賦予的大學校長"},{"start":4402.098,"end":4426.997,"text":"這個盡力的去完成跟這個公立大學有點不同尊重專業一如法律財務相關的委員會的組成應具有專業力並不是大家用投票來決定的財務像我們財務也有會計的這些會計師的這種審查所以這種東西也不是靠大家來投票決定的那對於長期跟短期的這個策略其實也不是"},{"start":4428.758,"end":4448.706,"text":"少数人可以决定的第六个国际的趋势国大学的整体治理参照国际上如何尊重大学自治的相关规范与做法第七个是前瞻发展大学法制修正应具有发展前瞻性那比如说AI发展对大学的组织规程与治理及具挑战性是应该"},{"start":4450.207,"end":4459.078,"text":"鬆綁大學這個規範大學的主要的處事或教務處總務處是不是只涉及基本的一些組織其餘的處事可以鬆綁"},{"start":4461.497,"end":4465.1,"text":"在這次的大學法修正草案能夠更全面回應高校體系的多元需求部分條文在治理架構上應有調整的空間那若能"},{"start":4482.975,"end":4501.558,"text":"更细致的区分公私立大学制度设计不同将有助于维护宪法保障大学制度也能强化私立高教在国家发展中的关键角色本会一向支持高教改革盘改革兼具周延与前瞻对于当前社会关注的议题"},{"start":4502.299,"end":4517.711,"text":"建議各界以更細膩的視角討論讓制度設計更具彈性貼近我國高校的多元實況我們誠摯期待高校各方的利害關係人重新展開對話與合作共同推動一步"},{"start":4520.113,"end":4548.865,"text":"体现多元促进卓越的永续的大学法让台湾的高等教育开创更有希望的未来我刚刚也在呼应政校长讲的其实大学有各种形态有大有小还有不同的目标像小的学校一个小的学校学生人数也很少教师人数也很少但是已经塞进来的所有的部会是完全一样的所有的组织一级单位是一样多"},{"start":4550.145,"end":4576.191,"text":"譬如說有的學校有兩三萬人他有七八百個老師那有的學校只有兩三千人就一百多位老師那這個組織的一級單位二級單位的一級單位是完全一樣的所以整個就一個學校一百多個老師就十幾個一級單位他就一級主管他還有更多的二級單位所以整個學校的這種架構跟一個學校有兩萬多人有七八百老師"},{"start":4577.236,"end":4600.516,"text":"那个完全是不一样的所以对于这些刚刚讲的这些大型的架构其实你要针对个别这个学校的特性给他们各自的这个努力所以还是应该就是说与其在那边做细部的各项规定应该朝着这个松绑放宽还有大学尊重大学这个自主的这个方向来做这个修法以上谢谢"},{"start":4607.008,"end":4633.834,"text":"好 我們謝謝林明果理事長的發言現在請林明彥全國私校產業工會的教授發言主席還有各位與會的專家學者以及我們部會的官員大家好"},{"start":4634.984,"end":4654.009,"text":"首先我代表全國私校產業工會來參與這樣一個公聽會,本人覺得非常榮幸。首先我們先介紹一下,一方面是私校產業工會的一個會員代表,第二個本人是景文科技大學的一個老師。"},{"start":4655.45,"end":4667.345,"text":"本人擔任過景文科技大學教師會兩任四年的理事長我經常詢問給教育部因為我們所有的老師都必須要負起監督學校的責任"},{"start":4668.804,"end":4693.553,"text":"這樣才能夠使得學校行政進行一個正向的一個發展我們景文科技大學也是全國唯一一所私立大專校院和學校訂定團體協約的學校我們教師的師資 薪資 任教時數以及各方面的終點會都是有合約保障"},{"start":4694.679,"end":4718.535,"text":"所以我們大概每兩年就會進行一次團體協約這也是所有工會人員與會工會人員都必須要努力的方向首先簡單介紹第二點呢我針對這次公聽會的一個重點放在校長遴選剛剛有幾位校長上來花言本人是參加校長遴選失敗的一個在最近才發生"},{"start":4719.52,"end":4743.682,"text":"那我非常感謝我們劉委員能夠提出在校長臨選這一塊的一個與會臨選代表的一個修正本人在初選時呢幾乎就被做掉了因為呢代表的產生雖然本校號稱叫公益董事但是他們在教師代表臨選裡頭做了一些小動作"},{"start":4746.461,"end":4763.676,"text":"超乎各位想像譬如說選出教師會代表並不是以最高票一次成為教師代表而是只要得到一票就可以成為教師代表這樣子他就可以去控制教師代表的一個人選所以說這裡針對校長您選這一塊"},{"start":4769.281,"end":4793.259,"text":"本人強烈主張必須經過校務會議這是一個非常良善的一個發展方向尤其是學生的自治代表我們學生自治代表是以校友會的會議代表這是一個非常好玩的一個現象並不是以現任學生這是第二點有關於校長典選的部分本人相當支持留學員的一個修法的一個方向"},{"start":4794.019,"end":4821.426,"text":"第三點要跟各位報告的就是本會因為是具有法人身分所以我們遇到問題經常會請問給部裡頭所以即使是經常會收到我們教育教師會的來文說明一些在學校行政上必要改善的一個方向我也非常鼓勵與會的工會代表必要鼓勵老師積極組成教師會或是學生會積極參與這樣子"},{"start":4823.787,"end":4847.709,"text":"而不是一方一直苛責不離頭沒有去進行監督因為我們可以了解學校教師學生人數這麼多非常非常難以去監管尤其事情這麼多需要靠老師學生積極參與效務最後一點要跟大家報告幾位校長提到"},{"start":4849.009,"end":4869.69,"text":"學校大小型態會影響到消費的組成我在這邊跟校長報告我們是教師比例而非絕對數目學校就算剩下3000人你的行政人員基本上在實際的運作上都不會有那麼多的行政人員"},{"start":4871.111,"end":4896.022,"text":"因為他是一個會用的支出所以說呢一定的教師比例以及學生比例是應該被保障的才能夠使得我們整個消費的運作的運作正常以上謝謝好謝謝林明彥教授對大學法修法的這樣的支持我們現在請葛如軍委員發言"},{"start":4909.977,"end":4921.36,"text":"謝謝主席安排今天的大學法修法公聽會也謝謝各位與會的專家學者代表不吝表達寶貴的意見對於大學法的修法"},{"start":4922.793,"end":4944.646,"text":"本席認為最重要的是藉由此次重新檢視大學法的機會強化對於教職原生權益的保障首先按照大學法第21條等相關的規定大專院校應建立教師評鑑制度目的是在協助教師教學專業的發展"},{"start":4946.167,"end":4967.619,"text":"改善教学的品质然而自相关法规施行以来行政权逐渐介入教学与研究的决策削弱教学以及教授治校的实质运作深等与人事决策逐渐被行政权左右"},{"start":4969.149,"end":4995.521,"text":"內省干預外省外省干預內省嚴重影響學術生態與教師自主且目前傳統升等制度偏重研究論文的點數更重視它的量而不一定能夠很好的評估它的值忽略了教學社會服務與跨領域的貢獻"},{"start":4997.065,"end":5015.827,"text":"缺乏多元评价的机制也限制了教师职涯发展的多样性与多元化此外根据监察院调查报告指出部分教师长期停留助理教授的阶段"},{"start":5017.222,"end":5040.764,"text":"形成萬年助理教授的現象這是全世界絕無僅有甚至以評鑑條文規定教師替學校募集經費者予以加分在部分私立大學資源有限評鑑壓力升等制度更為嚴苛的地方出現"},{"start":5042.386,"end":5069.113,"text":"或者規定教師實施義務教學或者未知領超售終點費者予以加分形同以評鑑制度逼迫教師自我剝削這個可能屢見不鮮更有甚者部分大學為了節省人事成本刻意以評鑑未過為理由"},{"start":5070.393,"end":5093.845,"text":"左手对教师做出不续聘的决议右手又想以特定的计划或短期聘用的专案教师模式要留下这个老师继续开课我想在影片前面看到的老师很多年轻教师或许都心有戚戚"},{"start":5095.151,"end":5112.836,"text":"我都已经被不续聘了为什么学校还邀请我转任专案教师呢这样子专案教师的制度遭到滥用沦为学界免洗筷的机制非常令人寒心也非常令人痛心"},{"start":5113.84,"end":5127.656,"text":"對於專案教師非教非勞既非教師又非勞工的艱難處境監察院早在民國112年就對教育部提出糾正"},{"start":5128.857,"end":5147.062,"text":"直指教育部放任大學大量以專案教師長期替代編制內專任教師的員額為全盤積極調查及引導改善政策評估及檢討機制複製缺乳這四個字是監察院使用的背離政策目的"},{"start":5147.802,"end":5174.122,"text":"部分专案教师任职一校多年竟未获公平转任编制内专任教师的机会其工作及劳动权益就未获保障而且该部也就是教育部对于各校因成本考量大量聘用专案教师以及工作环境薪酬显不合理之情形置若罔闻这是监察院所提的"},{"start":5174.722,"end":5202.747,"text":"这也跟许多的教师在校内感受到的情境完全吻合然而教育部对此非但没有严以制度鼓励学校将专案教师转为正式编制人员却粗暴地向校方提出上限令也就是教育部竟然没有改进还要帮助学校去维护作战吗"},{"start":5204.218,"end":5226.948,"text":"粗暴的向校方寄出上限令也就是以掃聘一名專案教師給10萬塊的方式企圖令學校加速解聘專案教師免洗完了就丟了這種方式企圖令學校來加速這種負面的作業"},{"start":5228.752,"end":5243.946,"text":"非常令人寒心更令人擔憂的是即便教育部祭出重賞然而數字會縮化根據統計大專院校專案教師的占比仍然是106年的4.85%提高到113年的6.64%並未見到顯著的改善"},{"start":5251.472,"end":5269.597,"text":"顯然有負各界期待因此期望透過此次大學法的通盤檢討能夠真正的將教師評鑑制度趕快導回正軌不要再淪為校方剝削與控制教師的一把利刃"},{"start":5271.823,"end":5292.225,"text":"同時也要解決專案教師非教非勞的艱難處境促進大學以長期編制內聘僱的方式為優先才對此外目前各大學校務會議普遍出現與學術或行政主管混沖教師代表的現象"},{"start":5293.346,"end":5320.554,"text":"這不但危害了校園民主更造成校務會議失去原來所應扮演的平衡監督功能對此我認為應該要藉由此次大學法修法的機會重新討論大學校務會議的組成代表在教師代表部分應該納入未兼任學術或行政主管之教師免得求援兼裁判"},{"start":5321.694,"end":5345.412,"text":"並因等比例納入編制外教職員的代表同時也應該增加學生代表的比例使大學校務會議的整體組成能夠真正發揮校園民主的精神這才是大學自治否則大學自治變成只是特定人士的自助餐"},{"start":5346.601,"end":5374.366,"text":"同時考量目前私立大專院校的校長遴選制度在制度上幾乎完全沒有給予教職員生任何參與的空間而將校長遴選或連任與否的權利全然的賦予董事會導致私立大專院校校長的選任經常可能不具有教職員生的民意基礎與校園民主的精神相違背"},{"start":5375.126,"end":5395.308,"text":"也因此希望透過此次大學法的修法可以在校長遴選與連任的過程當中納入全校教職員生的意見以真正落實校園民主與自治的精神而不是空有法規而實際落實的時候改為人治"},{"start":5396.189,"end":5412.919,"text":"最後再次感謝劉書斌趙偉安排今天的公聽會也非常感謝各位專家代表不遠千里齊聚於此我也感謝教育部以及行政機關所派的代表剛才我發言的時候次長"},{"start":5413.539,"end":5426.065,"text":"全程專注的聆聽並且撰寫筆記所以我也希望我們來自民間來自學界的聲音真的能夠一一被聽到而且被納入修法的意見當中"},{"start":5427.941,"end":5448.46,"text":"此事表達各方的意見也是我們公僕的職責所在那也希望列席的部會代表也就能夠誠摯的聆聽各界的意見作為未來大學法修法的參考依據也期望教育部能夠儘快的提出大學法修法的版本"},{"start":5450.121,"end":5476.034,"text":"屆時我們可以在國會的殿堂共同進行討論審議並且進行競訴通過謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝耿如君委員請代理主席謝謝接下來有請劉書斌委員發言"},{"start":5483.564,"end":5493.204,"text":"主席各位先進各位學者專家學生代表還有教育部的同仁跟在線上關心到高教的朋友大家早安"},{"start":5494.232,"end":5523.712,"text":"今天召開大學法的修法公聽會是因為台灣的高校問題已經到了不能夠再等的地步了高校改革的核心是在大學法這部法呢從2005年開始到現在一直沒有修過20年來的經驗代表什麼我們就是現在以20年前的架構來去治理我們的大學來治理我們的高校"},{"start":5524.792,"end":5542.884,"text":"面對現在的少子化大學退場人才外流還有產業轉型的議題都沒有辦法好好的連結台灣在受教育的年齡數跟升學率上面不斷上升不輸OECD的國家"},{"start":5543.644,"end":5555.572,"text":"但是在資源配置治理制度跟永續發展的面向上面確實已經出現到落後的風險改革刻不容緩教育部其實也知道了"},{"start":5556.593,"end":5572.895,"text":"上個會期本席與本黨的委員率先提出大學法的修法草案透過多場與學生的團體交流我們看到了社會高度的改革期待學生更站在最前線身為召委本席"},{"start":5574.116,"end":5600.749,"text":"責無旁貸的推動本次公聽會這不只是技術性的立法更是反映政治現實的必要性過去八年 民進黨政府完全執政期間學生團體多次要求徵訂學生會的專章提高學生代表的比例校長遴選制度要透明化但始終等不到布版 院版也等不到行動需要這麼久的時間嗎"},{"start":5603.359,"end":5626.101,"text":"本會及情勢終於出現了變化民眾黨提出了版本之後民進黨跟教育部才開始研議12月4日學生團體更公開表示若沒有民眾黨率先提出修法後續根本推不動這句話點出核心多年遭遇到擱置的訴求是因為我們的提案才真正的向前的"},{"start":5627.591,"end":5652.793,"text":"今天我面對的挑戰的核心是大學自治跟國家監理的長期路線之爭這剛才也從可以看到是學生代表跟私校的學校的校長或者是理事會代表有這樣的之爭但是我們希望真的能夠找到可以解決的途徑本席強調回應學生跟社會期待是我們的責任也期盼教育部"},{"start":5654.997,"end":5670.56,"text":"朱次長 高嬌思哲 姚高賢司長要請反映請述提出不版的改革草案送行政院使立法院能夠在朝野共識下來推動改革以下來說明本黨的三大核心方向"},{"start":5672.196,"end":5697.974,"text":"第一 學生參與跟重建大學民主治理我們主張將校務會議的學生比例由十分之一逐步升高到四分之一並規範教師代表三分之二不得兼任行政主管剛才有私校的學校代表校長們提出一個建議說如果學校的規模不一會不會出現什麼問題但是如果是依照比例這個問題其實不大"},{"start":5699.955,"end":5726.296,"text":"並不是所有的一級的主管都要出席也許實際上是二級的主管其實可以按比例去出現就對了這不是會是大問題使校務會議呢真正落實到師生共同治理而非行政獨大第二校長遴選透明化來降低黑箱作業遴選委員會當中教師跟學生代表需占至少五分之二並涵蓋大學部與對應的研究生"},{"start":5727.694,"end":5730.821,"text":"以避免密室協商確保程序公開正當"},{"start":5732.54,"end":5757.299,"text":"第三要建立學生會專章保障學生自治的完整性學生會在人事財務選務空缺上具有獨立性並由學校協助代收會費申訴制度也應該擴大到所有的學生組織這是學生八年來最核心的訴求本黨版本已完整納入但是我也要提醒學生如果賦予了這樣的一個責任"},{"start":5759.701,"end":5766.586,"text":"也要有相對的您的開會的意識技巧的能力知能也必須要加強我覺得這個是我聽到今天會議當中有的這樣一個聲音"},{"start":5770.671,"end":5795.606,"text":"從國際的比較來看台灣在PISA的成績與高校入學率上成績亮眼但在大學經費師生筆 治理制度跟退場機制等方面已落後多數的OECD國家許多學校在人少錢少制度老注意到制度老的情況之下免利支撐這樣的高校體質無法支撐產業的升級跟國家競爭力的提升"},{"start":5799.079,"end":5824.581,"text":"因此 修大學法不只是教育議題 更是國家發展問題請教育部要跟國發會一起思考 行政院要做這樣的思考我們需要與OECD國家相稱的制度跟資源 建立高品質高韌性的高教體系 唯有在母法當中明確規範學生參與教師專業 董事會的責任 私校財務透明 退場機制"},{"start":5825.081,"end":5844.733,"text":"品質保證跟產學連結國際化等跨領域的問題才讓改革脫鈴零碎的補動成為系統性的重建最後本席要呼籲朝野三黨支持民眾黨的版本或者是或者是共同形成跨黨派的共識意見"},{"start":5846.195,"end":5860.344,"text":"教育委員會請教育部也要加快建議板的內容出現或是敦促行政院提出院板讓教育委員會能夠在朝野共識之下盡速來排審真正推動大學法的改革"},{"start":5861.485,"end":5889.691,"text":"感謝與會的代表所有師生跟團體長期為了改革奔走謝謝目前在會場上面的這個團體跟學生代表跟所有的專家學者非常認真長期的奔走已經持續了很久我們在最後旅旅上面就一起來努力民眾黨做了過去您進黨九年以來為做的事情讓我們共同來去完成一部反映時代需求保障師生權益的大學法好 謝謝大家"},{"start":5892.653,"end":5914.931,"text":"謝謝劉書斌委員發言我們現在請任立中是國立台北商業大學的校長發言下一位請黃良騰會長準備"},{"start":5920.123,"end":5923.902,"text":"主席好 教育部長官還有各位同僚大家好"},{"start":5924.608,"end":5952.33,"text":"我想我在这个地方请代表国立科技大学协进会来针对这一次大学法一些的修订的一些草案我们发表一些意见其中环绕在最重要的一个议题仍然还是在于有关于校务会议代表当中是不是学生的代表人数要到四分之一那当初"},{"start":5953.944,"end":5978.05,"text":"学信会我们这个地方有统合各个大学的一些意见认为这个人数上面的四分之一的比例来讲的话稍微过高了现在现行是大概10%另外的话在于其实学校现在目前的运作里头来讲的话我们对于学生的沟通其实是有非常多的不同的管道"},{"start":5978.79,"end":6001.657,"text":"比如說每個學期期初的時候我們會跟全校各個班級的幹部進行座談會到了期末的時候呢校長與同學有約會是直接面對所有的同學進行溝通另外的話各式各樣不同的委員會裡頭來講話比如說我們學校現在最近有一個棟大樓要重建這個重建委員會裡頭來講的話其實並沒有學生代表"},{"start":6004.338,"end":6029.84,"text":"但是我們還是邀請了學生代表來練習來講出他們的一些看法跟意見另外對於學校的財務上面來講的話校務基金管理委員會裡頭也有學生代表那這些所有的不同的一些會議上面來講的話學生代表其實通通都不缺席的那麼如果他們有一些意見如果表達了不被委員會尊重"},{"start":6031.485,"end":6047.994,"text":"这些同学事实上可以直接一封信就写到校长室或者是一封信就写到部长室去了然后来反映反映之后学校怎么办我们还是会要积极的处理的所以说我觉得整个的一个沟通的管道上面来讲的话其实"},{"start":6049.461,"end":6075.082,"text":"并没有这么直接相关性那么高的说一个会议里头的学生代表人数要超过将近25%这样子四分之一以后这样来看所以我们是对这个是有点保留的那我们的建议是其实学生代表如果这一旦入法之后就没有什么弹性了所以我们是不是我不晓得这个法律上面是怎么样子好的"},{"start":6075.302,"end":6102.412,"text":"但是我们是说那是不是可以呢建议就是说我们是10到25%然后请教育部另订一些奖励办法如果有的学校里头校务会议代表当中的学生代表人数能够达到25%的时候给予奖励这样子的话我相信学校就会权衡实务的执行上面的可行性"},{"start":6103.652,"end":6114.557,"text":"那么以及这个整个的一个目标让同学能够在所有的重要会议里头来讲话他的发声能够被受到重视我想这个可能是一个解决的办法"},{"start":6115.199,"end":6136.393,"text":"另外的话我们对于有关于校长的临选委员会里头现在修订办法里头来讲的话他说包括教师跟学生代表的比例与校务会议相同也就是说将来在校长临选委员会他的学生代表要25%"},{"start":6138.908,"end":6167.088,"text":"那么以我们学校来讲的话我们现在目前学校里头的校长定权委员会有17个人这17个人当中学校代表有7个人这7个人是必须从校务会议来推选的其中教师代表5人行政人员1人学生代表1人另外的话我们还有校友代表2人其实校友代表就是学生的身份只不过他已经毕业了在社会上面已经"},{"start":6168.266,"end":6184.135,"text":"工作一段时间之后对于他在学校里头很多的一些想法他可能有他的独到见解然后所以我们也很重视校友的声音另外的话会有五位社会公正人士所以这样子一下来之后最后是"},{"start":6184.875,"end":6208.211,"text":"教育部的临选林派的代表有三人那我们都知道像教育部林派的三人基本上来讲现在我们学校里头校教评会里头系教评会里头尤其是系教评会系教评会的委员里头来讲的话我们现在都会要求要有一位外部的委员但是他没有投票权他只是列席"},{"start":6209.042,"end":6228.562,"text":"那结果老师问我说校长这是为什么呢我说很简单防腐机制我们就请校外公正的一位学术界有地位的人来列席参加我们的系教评会里头的运作的状况到底是怎么样子这样子就而已他没有投票权他没有投票权"},{"start":6228.982,"end":6256.788,"text":"那教育部林派的三人代表我觉得这也是一个很重要的一个防抚机制那我觉得这三位教育部的林派的代表三人是不是有投票权我觉得这是可以讨论的但是人一定要排我觉得人一定要排这样子的话才能够保证我们的校长林选的委员会的运作是非常公正公平公开的那以上是我们的一些建议谢谢"},{"start":6258.424,"end":6268.493,"text":"好謝謝任校長現在請黃良騰會長做發言柯志恩委員請準備"},{"start":6273.767,"end":6300.177,"text":"大家好我是台市大的會長梁騰然後今天就針對大學法發言那大學生其實常常被認為是社會改革的前線然後學生會也常常被認為是最有能動性的一群人組成的那它可以深化公共政策的參與推動時代的革新那我想大學存在的目的一定是人才的培育還有研究的發展所以在第五條部分支持范雲委員的版本把教職員工生定期的權益盤點眼納進來"},{"start":6301.778,"end":6329.704,"text":"那其實現在各校都遇到這個參與率或者是其實校內外都有這個政治參與度高跟低兩極化的差別那回到校園裡面來我想學生自治的第一步是賦權就是Empower的那個賦權那其實對政治人感覺很冷感到底發生什麼事情那我想我們要思考的是我們怎麼讓大家不要離這些公共決策太遠因為它真的會被這些決策影響"},{"start":6330.464,"end":6354.639,"text":"那重點應該就是讓他可以參與政策而且讓他知道他的聲音是可以帶來改變的所以我們怎麼做到就是empower這件事情第一個就是要給他會議席次讓這些學生代表的票在實體的決議上是有影響力的所以不管是三分之一四分之一其實都是希望他可以拉高到一個可以影響到會議決議的情形那尤其是有些學生代表在會議裡面在不那麼"},{"start":6355.459,"end":6382.982,"text":"友善的學校裡面它就是意見諮詢所以這時候校方就會好我聽到了但是我沒有要做但是學生作為一個大學他要培育的對象他是校園生活的主體他當然應該要說說自己的經驗然後讓校方的決策可以更加的回應學生的需求我想這個重點應該不是意識規則有多純熟而是在會議裡面釐清學生的需求到底是什麼學生代表除了表決的這個功能以外他更重要的應該是可以實時參與討論"},{"start":6384.463,"end":6405.395,"text":"讓他的擔心讓他的需求被政策考慮進去所以在第七條並效的部分我們傾向支持的是民眾黨黨團的版本因為學生不應該只是表達意見而已他應該要有一些實質上的決策權否則董事會可能就會說好你講完了齁然後還是照自己偏好的樣子通過那校務治理的權限就不會在師生的手上了"},{"start":6406.696,"end":6427.757,"text":"但是在這個大學法第33條修正版本在哪些會議要有學生參與的規定我們是覺得犯人委員的版本比較適合因為大學主規裡面有規範的會議實在是太少了可能只有十餘項但是其實我們校級的會議可能有四十幾項所以它會比現在可以實質參與的還要少那我們是覺得應該要跟師生有關的就應該要參與"},{"start":6429.278,"end":6454.969,"text":"再来是公开会议的记录也是很重要的事情不只是校务会议当然除了有一些不宜公开的委员会以外其他的都应该要公开不宜公开的可能像是申诉评议像是性平案件的审理但是如果今天性平会在审理的是学校的性别平等教育发展计划我们倒也觉得这可以公开所以它应该是看事情有没有需要保密而决定它有没有需要公开"},{"start":6455.689,"end":6480.738,"text":"那這為什麼對於學生代表很重要其實是因為學生代表很需要透過比較各校的會議資料來知道自己學校的情況到底是怎麼樣我怎麼去評估這個學校的輔導安量到底是重還是不重學生代表是不會有這個概念的除非他不小心念了本科系所以他需要透過這種跨校的比較知道學校有哪些地方是特別需要支持的以及學校有哪些優勢跟優點是他們可以有更多發揮的"},{"start":6482.694,"end":6499.558,"text":"再來還有一些比較特別的會議像是校長臨選跟教評會他們其實一直不太算是學生代表主要要倡議加入的會議學生代表其實一直都知道教評會的份量很重也關係到老師的學術自主但當今天老師涉及了霸凌案性平案前面有一個調查委員會"},{"start":6500.018,"end":6519.711,"text":"建議他要停聘解聘不續聘的時候其實教評會裡面其他老師的壓力是很大的他到底要怎麼讓一個朝夕相處的同事沒有工作其實老師們很難下這個決定所以我們覺得就算不要學生參與好了也希望有一些外部的委員可以參與不然我想教評會很難做出一個"},{"start":6520.932,"end":6535.084,"text":"這麼有壓力的決定我真的寧願相信教評會裡面的大家有自己的苦衷而不是像外界所傳的大家受到外部的壓力欺壓或者是有一些黑箱作業我真的寧願相信大家有自己的苦衷這樣"},{"start":6536.175,"end":6551.137,"text":"再來回到校長遴選的部分現在學生大概很少有兩席的所以他就會是一個單一的學生代表在校長遴選委員會裡面他會很努力的要在那一個充滿學術威望的眾老師的這個會議情境裡面他如果有不能接受的權利"},{"start":6552.559,"end":6571.315,"text":"他其實就要非常努力的獨排眾議然後而且這個遴選的過程往往會要求要保密所以他就要獨立的判斷情境然後沒有辦法跟其他人討論那其實那個參與的空間是非常小的對學生來說門檻很高所以不管要不要保障不同學制也就是大學部跟研究所"},{"start":6572.075,"end":6589.718,"text":"不管要不要保障这件事情但我们都觉得至少要两席而且要让学生可以自办说明会模拟投票这些事情以及让候选人可以到各院了解学校不同的发展需求才有办法真的做到校长临选可以让广大的师生都知道这件事情所以"},{"start":6592.545,"end":6609.816,"text":"這或許在之後的事情細則可以討論那最後是會費收取會費收取其實是學生會的重中之重因為經濟要獨立人格才會獨立我真的滿認同這句話的那會費收取是學生會能不能夠不受干預的獨立發聲一個很重要的地方像他能不能辦一個校方"},{"start":6610.797,"end":6637.287,"text":"跟校方不這麼站在一起的倡議型活動的關鍵他要脫離學校分配的補助款他才可以真的不受干預否則他有些財政比較不好的學生就會一直在沒錢然後學生無感的惡性循環裡面最後也要再次感謝我們大學法終於在各方努力下又被拿出來討論那我們希望這次的大學法可以打破封閉的權利結構讓學生可以實質參與而非形式的過水然後讓大學法更符合學生需求讓高等教育更好謝謝"},{"start":6640.455,"end":6645.462,"text":"好 謝謝黃會長現在請柯志恩委員發言"},{"start":6653.557,"end":6675.547,"text":"谢谢召委今天又再一次的办理我们大学法的公听会那其实看到这样的一个公听会其实非常感叹在2016年第九届担任立委的时候就有学联会就特别来找曾经是大学老师的我来讨论里面非常多那没想到这个学生会的这个会长已经物换心仪已经换了大概换了九个了吧"},{"start":6676.107,"end":6701.671,"text":"好吧到现在为止还是继续要讨论大学法所以说到底大学法里面透过这么多的公听会我们会不会会有一个所谓比较最后的一个版本出现我想真的教育部要加把劲教育部已经历经了20年了我们大家我今天非常谢谢刘淑冰委员特别排的这样子的一个公听会但是我还是要说我们的朱次长已经从高教师的次长"},{"start":6702.191,"end":6719.731,"text":"高升师的师长现在已经变成次长了你看我们还在讨论大学法那原因还是很简单要广大各位的意见那意见已经讲了这么久了那到底教育部的版本在哪里但是呢很多时候呢每次都告诉我们要非常的公开态度要非常的开放"},{"start":6720.211,"end":6742.816,"text":"但是太多的开放里面其实我某种程度是要掩饰教育部它不表态的这样的一个真实的一个原因那为什么不表态某一些在大学服务过我想多少可以因为这些东西包山包海有太多的细节学校的立场教师的立场还有学生的立场都各自不一样我想这也是一个事实没有错吧所以其实也很难在这个过程当中"},{"start":6743.456,"end":6759.237,"text":"但是呢如果不取得共识呢我想再过几年也还是停留在公听会的阶段那我们想就诚如我刚刚说的我刚刚听了一下葛珠君委员就是针对于我们这个教师的权益特别在升等的权益里面可不可以更多样那当然从头到尾"},{"start":6759.637,"end":6780.559,"text":"还有很多人有提到包括我们刚刚同学的台师大的同学也特别已经细微到有关于这个学生费再怎么样收都是所以你看可以很大很小那我们只能捡其中的几个东西来去来看待当然我觉得维持大学自主的这个核心精神这绝对是要的维持大学的自治然后呢学生的自治"},{"start":6781.019,"end":6810.1,"text":"这是但这里面就牵涉到一个相当微妙的一个问题就像刚刚我们景文的老师也提到我也同意学生比例的代表这是一个正确的方向但比例是一个数字有些时候学生的一个所谓的值的部分也会是我举例来说当我们制定了从以前大学法里面有关学生参与校务所有的会议当中有人提出三分之一有人提出四分之一有些人提出五分之一这个数字都有这是一个比例"},{"start":6810.64,"end":6834.459,"text":"但是有些时候像我过去服务的淡江大学我服务到26年就发现其实差距非常的大早期的学生非常愿意所以说我们会竞争非常的激烈交到最后10年的时候我光是要开一个校务会议学生事务会议每一个学院要导出代表因为我们有个比例在那边我找不到人因为学生就开始没"},{"start":6834.599,"end":6852.2,"text":"没有兴趣我说的值是指在他们对于公共事务所投入的事情所以当我们设定了这样一个标准的时候一个比例的时候物换心仪每一次都不一样而且我们再不定力的话其实你会发现往往因为找不到人让学生也会造成很大的困扰"},{"start":6852.64,"end":6879.483,"text":"所以比例的方向是正確但是要設定是哪樣的比例我覺得這個我們都是一個考慮討論的一個空間所以這不是學校規模大跟小比例就比例在那個地方我覺得必須要思考的就是當你一個學校沒有所謂的社會科學系的時候其實會讓學校是非常的困擾因為大部分的學生真的對於這樣的一個學生的事務裡面他們的興趣點沒有那麼大的時候其實當你比例定到三分之一的時候"},{"start":6880.063,"end":6900.572,"text":"会有留会的问题这是我们担任学务长七年当中所提到的所以说呢我们在第33条有关学生自治的层面要扩大学生会的专章完成学生会的运作财务跟这边的空间我也是比较持正向的方法来看因为你可以确保学生会的独立性保障学生的自治权益"},{"start":6901.252,"end":6929.683,"text":"但是呢还是一句话就刚刚我们的会长所提到的他们也很细微希望由学校这也是范玉为人的主张希望细微由学校来做代收那目前来说这个代收又是一个问题当你把这个学生会的会费如果不是跟这个学费单印在跟学院堂同一张纸上而是额外由另外一张纸的时候然后你又没有强制即使学校帮你代收其实你的比例交的比例也是非常的低的你有没有发现"},{"start":6930.243,"end":6958.821,"text":"所以说呢你看政大25我的母校25到35大概只有400人教4000人教台北大学大概20到30所以除非是你把印在对不对同学是不是印在那上面但是你在印在这是你们要的但是很难做得到但是呢有些时候所以说我们的学生会就要怎么办偶尔是找个什么陈其正来唱个歌找谁来唱个歌透过这样子的学生办活动然后我们缴个多少钱来当做你们学生会的这样子会费对不对"},{"start":6959.341,"end":6987.797,"text":"很辛苦但是呢这就是我们说出来你看学务长不是当假的因为他们都要跟我反映过这个问题我当学务长很久然后这样已经过了八年了怎么还在讨论这个问题所以说你把它即使把它分隔学校应该帮你们代收但是你把你这个账单分开来上的话你这张账单额外要去缴其实问题还是存在所以这个问题该怎么办所以你们只能提供到由学校来代收但是学校在代收的过程当中怎么样的收法也是决定你们有没有办法收到钱"},{"start":6988.097,"end":7011.949,"text":"这是你们细微上里面去讨论好不好这太细微这整个大学法来说还有关于这个少子化所带来的一个冲击要怎么样保障这些权益所以我所提出来第7条修正的草案当中未来直辖县市的大学或私立何必要经过校务会议同意然后也要重视教师员的权益这点我想大家所要求就是一个退场的过程真的是"},{"start":7012.449,"end":7028.46,"text":"目前為止是勸缺公開透明所以問題學生的安置老師的勞動保障土地的資產私校的財務審查跟歸屬這些過去都是在一個比較封閉的儀式除非有人檢舉否則還有我們立法院質詢否則都不會主動告知"},{"start":7028.96,"end":7043.174,"text":"所以認為有關於重要的一個決定必須公開可以審查可以被監督那如果大學都是由行政來壟斷的話資訊不透明師生無法參與我覺得這個部分事實是大自治精神但是要怎麼樣來參與"},{"start":7044.295,"end":7065.928,"text":"多少人站教职员站的比例多少那也学生他们刚刚讲说学生如果一个人去的话他在这个学术权威之下学生不敢发言那是否大学一位研究所一位那是不是可以稍微减缓这样子的一个趋势都可以讨论但是公开这点是绝对是毋庸置疑的最后我只提出一个第35条我觉得这个东西应该好好来讨论"},{"start":7066.428,"end":7090.601,"text":"纳入家庭所得净额适用税率12%以内的免学费我们能够打破贫穷世袭教育M型化的现况我觉得这才是一个落实社会正义我觉得不管是公私利真的保障弱势学生之前清贫学生很多大二生为了办理休学无力缴纳一万八你看造成很多轻生的悲剧我们不希望再发生"},{"start":7091.081,"end":7112.017,"text":"所以我们要花很多钱与其花很多钱去买那个持交啊不交的这些所谓的一些的武器我觉得应该多一点经费来照顾经济弱势所以我个人为好好的讨论税率12%以内的免学费这点是很重要的总而言之这个问题还会继续在讨论下去太多了但是呢几个基本的原则"},{"start":7112.978,"end":7133.046,"text":"学生自治参与扫指化所面临的冲击的冲击还要保障弱势的学生我想这是我对大学法修法的一个看法然后呢我们希望在实务跟我们的理想当中取得一个平衡点然后呢我们可以回应学生团体跟社会的共同但是最重要的还是一句话20年没有修教育部"},{"start":7133.706,"end":7159.168,"text":"公听会不能再开下去学生的意见再继续学生已经换了八个会长你们学联会已经换了换了八个会长了好吧已经第九年了我不晓得都已经过去的常常在路上遇到说老师我就上次给你看我说毕业的几年了我说那个大学法我说一样还在那里所以说呢各位不要让今天在场的学生你们过了我在社会上看到你们搞不好变成我同事的时候还在修大学法就由你们来修了好不好"},{"start":7159.768,"end":7187.908,"text":"重點一個我們一致希望教育部拿出態度跟拿出我們的願板這才有辦法讓我們大學法繼續往前修最大的一個動能謝謝大家好 謝謝柯之恩委員講出了我們在現場的代表們跟委員們的心聲教育部真的要責無龐大要加快了20年前的架構還可以適用到現在嗎好 那我們現在請張雅玲委員發言"},{"start":7191.027,"end":7217.677,"text":"蔡景洪召集人請準備謝謝主席好 我想先剛剛柯政委員有提到就是說他認為我們應該少買一些武器石膠的武器來多照顧學生我想照顧學生這一點是所有人都希望做到的事情但是守護國家的安全這兩點應該不是擇一應該是可以兼具"},{"start":7218.917,"end":7248.397,"text":"那上个礼拜呢其实我也参与了学生所举办的大学法的记者会那其实有一个数字呢我听起来非常的惊人就是说有现场的学生告诉我他出生的那一年到现在已经20年了大学法都没有修正过就是20年就是一个呱呱落地的婴儿长到可以变成个大学生的时间这是一个非常漫长的时间这20年整个社会的变化其实已经非常大了"},{"start":7249.277,"end":7256.041,"text":"我們從當年可能少子化沒有這麼嚴重的問題到現在已經是非常嚴峻所以造成我們所謂的退場的問題公私銷合併的問題"},{"start":7258.792,"end":7281.49,"text":"所以還有一個就是我們媒體的環境資訊的傳播其實都有非常大的改變可是我們的大學法卻依然沒有變那這個是一個我們必須一起來面對也希望督促我們在這個會期或是這一屆以內我們可以完成這個修法那我想其中我自己主要針對的就是三個重點其實也就是學生發言學生參與校務會議的一個重點這樣子"},{"start":7287.389,"end":7308.853,"text":"就是說我們現在在高校和大學合併的時候應該要有學生的聲音而且他應該要經過校務會議同意我們現在只要經過主管機關或是董事會同意就可以了可是學校合併其實會影響到的是老師的教學生還有學生的求學的問題"},{"start":7312.634,"end":7325.284,"text":"那這麼大的一個影響性可是我們卻完全不要去參考師生的意見我覺得這是一個非常不合理的地方所以我的主張就是不管是公私立大學只要學校要進行合併的時候都必須經過校務會議的同意"},{"start":7330.818,"end":7349.189,"text":"再來第二點就是我們校長遴選的公開透明我們現在校園遴選的時候長期存在所謂的資訊不公開外力介入甚至黑箱操作的問題所以我希望說在我們這次的修法裡面要去保證我們著稱要有代表性"},{"start":7350.149,"end":7369.431,"text":"而且學生的代表要包含教師跟學生代表且學生代表不能夠少於兩名當然各校可以依照各自的需求將教職員生的同意權納入遴選過程那還是要再強調一句校長"},{"start":7370.892,"end":7395.966,"text":"不是少數人的校長校長是所有每一個學生的校長所以我們希望在這個遴選過程可以去反映全校多元的聲音再來第三個就是我們要強化校務會議的一個監督功能校務會議應該是大學自治裡面最高的決策機構但是現在不管是有代表性不足監督力量薄弱的問題"},{"start":7397.046,"end":7412.998,"text":"所以如果要讓校務會議真正發揮它一個制衡的作用教室代表中沒有兼任行政主管的人必須在多數避免讓校務會議變成只是校長的橡皮圖章"},{"start":7414.798,"end":7430.623,"text":"那學生呢的代表我這邊的想法其實是五分之一那成如剛剛這個柯政務委員講的這一點其實我是蠻同意的的確是現在學生參與公共事務的這個動力呢相對過去可能是稍微更低的"},{"start":7431.343,"end":7456.845,"text":"那如果要找到如果要訂到三分之一會不會有這個到時候沒有辦法找到足夠的人數所以我這邊基本上是提五分之一但是我想這可以讓大家一起來討論因為其實也有學生跟我反映我們過去參與這些學校事務的時候他的意見其實根本不會被踩那慢慢慢慢的大家就不想去參與這個公共事務不想參與學校事務所以我想這個可能是有一個賠利還有校務會議"},{"start":7459.066,"end":7486.053,"text":"這些公共的會議到底會不會採納學生如果我們可以去改善這一點的話也許三分之一也不是不可行那最後呢我還有新增這個監督財務 銷務及邊境議程的委員會確保我們的運作是公開透明而且議案也是安排公平所以我想最重要讓大學運作監督就不能夠只是一個形式而是要建立真正有力量的一個制度"},{"start":7486.693,"end":7507.484,"text":"所以我想最後還是要去呼籲我們所有的教文委員會的委員都一起來公開支持這個法案的修法讓我們的教育部可以更積極地去督促一起去整合大家不同的意見提出一個好的版本來去回應這個時代的需求跟學生的需要"},{"start":7508.564,"end":7534.494,"text":"那我想最後還是要感謝我們的學生就是在這麼多年以來還是不放棄一直非常的努力在推動相關的修法這樣子的精神我覺得非常的欽佩但我也希望在這一屆我們可以走到終點 謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員現在請蔡景洪召集人發言陳育仁理事長請準備"},{"start":7536.628,"end":7557.279,"text":"好委員教育部長官各大學代表那所有關注大學法的前輩先進學生夥伴大家好我是代表大學法改革陣線2.0在此發言首先先特別感謝台灣民眾黨蘇冰老師的幫忙那推動修法的進程也在今年率先提出學權版本支持學生剛剛聽過前面幾輪的發言"},{"start":7560.58,"end":7576.173,"text":"應該大學法的修法目前已經有跨黨派委員的共識了那我們也期許教育部可以聽見朝野委員民團教團學團部分校長以及剛有聽到國立私立的科大等等的聲音來勇敢提出草案"},{"start":7577.403,"end":7596.478,"text":"大學法修正禮那我來補充一件事其實我們從2005年到現在都陸陸續續有一點小修都一條兩條這樣但沒有全文修正也沒辦法改變2005年這個大的框架大的架構在這個關鍵上已經20年了大學法依舊停在這裡前後陸續經過台學聯 北學聯 大改正1.0 2.0等等倡議了十來年"},{"start":7604.884,"end":7619.962,"text":"我们希望校园环境与高教需求聚变的这个情况下修法是势在必行那我来回应一些刚校长们有提到一些关键第一个是教师代表全责相扶的部分在校务会议里面刚有提到第一个"},{"start":7620.863,"end":7645.735,"text":"如果校務會議的代表他教師人數過半但主管可能在行政上會有些困難權責並不相符他們不用負責任可是校務會議代表的學生老師也沒有領主管家級他不負責行政內務他在幹嘛他在處理的是處理校園的發展方向跟監督校務剛剛有提及不管是大學校小學校會有"},{"start":7646.275,"end":7667.375,"text":"如果老師人數過高學生人數過高行政不兼主管的狀況的話可能會沒辦法開會這其實這樣子我們的核心目標是完善監督功能小學校也需要完善這個目標在於縮小校務會議的規模比照國際就沒有困難以荷蘭來說荷蘭就24個人我再以台灣來說"},{"start":7668.416,"end":7677.254,"text":"台大他光校會兼任主管人就只有三個人其實我沒辦法理解這樣的沒兼任主管會有困難他會困難在哪裡"},{"start":7678.649,"end":7700.336,"text":"再來剛有提到學帶席次的部分我身為數學系用簡單的數據邏輯來說明為什麼我們提四分之一五分之一第一個現行的學生占一成其餘主管教師占九成只要教職員有高度共識也就是九成里的三分之二"},{"start":7701.016,"end":7710.249,"text":"那麼就可以拿到六成以上的票數九成里的三分之二就可以拿到六成以上票數這也就是說在現行的KLM規範裡面學生的意見根本就不重要"},{"start":7711.144,"end":7732.206,"text":"再來學生如果占兩成就是五分之一其他的主管就占八成當教師級員工對議案有高度共識也就是八成里的三分之二八成里的三分之二那就可以直接拿到總票數的53%歇為過半在這種狀況下學生不管是全數贊成或全數反對都不影響投票的結果"},{"start":7733.047,"end":7761.227,"text":"都不影響投票結果再來如果學生代表占25%也就是民眾黨團旗的四分之一教職員工就占75%如果教職員有高度共識也就是75%裡三分之二都是相同意見七成五裡三分之二都是相同意見那就可以堪堪拿到50%學生在這個時候如果全體投同意或反對就可以剛好打平手需要主席才是"},{"start":7761.907,"end":7789.315,"text":"所以在這個角度來看我們如果要提升學生這個主體全責相輔來看學生其實也有繳學費那我們應該要逐步升高學生在校務會議當中的比例而校務會議的學生人數如果不足其實他重點反映在校會人數整體過度膨脹我們應該以限縮100人為原則甚至以四星來說只有50個人而已那在這樣的橋段底下學生人數其實不會不夠其實不會不夠"},{"start":7791.175,"end":7811.942,"text":"再來校長遴選的部分部分的私立大學校長主張校長遴選委員會應該由董事會主導認為學校出資在董事會學生跟教師不應過多介入他們也擔心師生代表會削弱董事會的權責影響校務穩定我們要強調大學不是少數人的公司而是師生的共同體"},{"start":7812.862,"end":7841.225,"text":"長期以來私校董事會大權獨攬儼然成為校長的大老闆導致治理失衡現在公私立學校都應回歸教育的公共性讓校長產生的過程兼顧各方的聲音那我們的草案裡面也希望在學生的部分至少大學部跟研究部各一名大學部跟研究部各一名那這樣子也要提醒一下如果研究部有些學校沒有研究部的話我們可以大學部及研究部共兩名"},{"start":7842.389,"end":7863.835,"text":"然後以這樣子再來再比照公校納入五分之二的校務會代表保留五分之一董事會代表來提出人選交董事會就可以增進校內師生參與跟高教公共性例如今年沸沸揚揚的四星門檻選客案校內師生反彈董事會卻毫無作為這難道就是權責對應權責相符嗎"},{"start":7865.795,"end":7890.217,"text":"這已凸顯目前制度讓私校學生權益不受學校重視急需改善若私校認為師生與董事會的比重要在權衡那我們應該來提出其他理由反覆的討論再來 併校的部分公私校合併是正確的方向至於公私校各自通過的門檻可以討論應該也可以來讓教育部主導公私校合併的部分"},{"start":7891.533,"end":7916.793,"text":"最後再提一件事也有一些校長在回應我們現在已經有青年屬的大專校院學生會運作原則了為什麼還要入法我相信教育部也很清楚一直都用指引原則講補措施這些你們每年都有做學生權利問卷有多少學校沒有做到大家心裡都有數也就是說如果我們先用邏輯上來講如果大家認為已有指引何須入法那麼我們細緻討論一下"},{"start":7918.154,"end":7937.021,"text":"如果指引沒問題 入法有強制力那怎麼會有問題第二個 如果已有指引核心入法你假設指引有問題那我想請問的是現在的指引大部分規範學生會要在選舉人事章程財務等享有自治校方不得介入這樣怎麼會有問題"},{"start":7938.402,"end":7958.095,"text":"也就是說我們其實在學權版的草案裡強調33條到33之9這不是要讓學生自治跟學校對立而是各司其職互相配合杜絕正義那我們也希望教育部可以來訂定在條文裡面有說明授權教育部來訂定學生自治與學校應該互動遵循辦法來教育部來訂"},{"start":7959.136,"end":7975.163,"text":"未來下方與學生會的權責如果有清晰的指引清晰的法律規範大家就不會無所適從最後最後的最後今天公聽會目前為止我們要再強調朝野委員聽起來都有要修法的這個共識那也感謝民眾黨團書兵召委"},{"start":7976.824,"end":8001.341,"text":"開了這個宮廷會展現修法決心我們誠摯的希望教育部可以再勇敢一點有肩膀一點不要看似有努力實則敷衍了事我們誠摯的期盼教育部可以正式的在近期就推出布版的修正草案不是三個月又三個月一年又再一年以拖待變我們也希望書兵召委可以在宮廷會之後再繼續排答詢繼續排審謝謝大家我是大學法改革政縣金鴻謝謝"},{"start":8004.11,"end":8017.05,"text":"好 謝謝蔡總召集人的發言現在請陳育仁理事長發言王立成學生代表請準備"},{"start":8019.376,"end":8039.995,"text":"主席 在座各位委員先進各位學生自治夥伴大家好我是台灣學生聯合會理事長陳育仁首先在此代表台學聯感謝立法院邀請我來參加這場公聽會再來是想感謝這次提出大學法修法草案的民眾黨團劉書斌召委以及經部黨的范園委員"},{"start":8040.515,"end":8052.256,"text":"感謝委員關心高校的議題讓高校可以更完善更進步也就此啟動這次大學法的修法針對這次大學法的修法台學院有以下幾點問題希望可以提供今天的公聽會帶動理性的討論"},{"start":8054.738,"end":8072.226,"text":"第一件事情現行的學生會或是我們所謂的學生自治組織都是基於現行條文第33條第二項大學應輔導學生成立由全校學生選舉產生學生會在這個地方那我們可以發現大學法對於所謂學生會這一類的學生自治組織它所保障所規範的範疇相當薄弱"},{"start":8074.451,"end":8092.886,"text":"在我們所想像中的學生會不應該只是有增進學業能力不應該只有增進學習能力這個部分那我們更期待他可以代表學生群體參與校園的公共治理以及對等地位的共同決策效務那在這個部分他僅有輔導"},{"start":8095.899,"end":8107.033,"text":"大學應該要輔導學生成立那在現行的學生自治環境無疑來說是一大弊端除了人有聽見學校常常會干預學生資之外對於空間會費等等都沒有一定程度的保障"},{"start":8108.118,"end":8131.198,"text":"這也是台學聯這次呼籲修法的重點我們也提出了學生會專章希望透過這次大學法修法來保障學生自治的主體性學生會費的代收以及學生會獨立運作的空間為何獨立運作的空間是重要的我們認為一個組織的自治性以及自主性是否具有獨立且隱私的運作空間是非常重要的這也是我們一再呼籲學生會需要獨立空間的原因"},{"start":8133.134,"end":8142.803,"text":"那學生會費更是學生會穩定運作的重要來源我們也希望可以透過這次修法使各校學生會有更完善的財務來源也進而保障學生會的主體性"},{"start":8143.993,"end":8166.186,"text":"接著我們想要談談有關於校長遴選委員會的組成人員台學認為無論公私立學校其中學生代表人數不得低於兩人不得低於兩人且應該要更高我們現在認同這是現有版本裡面遴選委員會的相關內容在條文中有進行初步的規範以及限制但我們認為私立大學校長遴選委員會的占比分配應該可以更明確"},{"start":8166.986,"end":8180.274,"text":"台學院認為私立大學的領委會組成應該可以比照現行公立大學的規定有五分之二的校會會議推選代表五分之二的校友以及社會公正人士其餘委員由董事會出任確保大學裡面的各種聲音可以被重視"},{"start":8181.735,"end":8195.486,"text":"同時我們也認為不宜將最後的選選權交由董事會董事會與遴選委員會裡面已經有代表席次已經能夠可以充分反映董事會意見以及聲音因此台學聯主張董事會應該尊重遴選委員會的最終決議並且如決議報請效益不合準"},{"start":8198.291,"end":8210.917,"text":"另外我們認為在進入校長領選程序前校長候選人的參與資格應該可以透過教職員工生的同意權行使確保在進入專業領選程序前全體教職員工生可以有機會表達對校長選任的意見"},{"start":8214.378,"end":8239.142,"text":"目前部分大學像以我的學校為例台北大學就有相關程序的執行經驗以及案例我們認為在尊重大學自治的前提下這次修法也應該納入相關的規定並且由各校自行訂定執行程序以保障校園多數群體的意見表達以及公共參與第三點有關校務會議代表組成部分我們也應該認為應該要將學生代表比例提高現行制度下"},{"start":8240.72,"end":8263.295,"text":"學生縱然每位代表都有發言然而在表決的時候卻只有現行的一成而無法撼動決議導致學生代表在校務會議的重要性不高我們希望可以透過調高比例讓學生在校務會議上至少可以是被看見的存在之外比例應該也可以能夠至少召開臨時校務會議也就是五分之一的比例讓學生正式成為大學校園中可以決定事務的一股力量"},{"start":8264.676,"end":8287.354,"text":"至於有質疑認為學生代表比例過高可能會因為學生參與度不高導致留會,然而根據我們的觀察,學生參與的校務情況絕對不比老師差,而這也完全沒有考量到部分學校開會時間在期中週期末週的情況。有意無意讓學生的出席情況變差,在這樣的情況下說學生參與度不高,我認為這是非常不公平的說法。"},{"start":8288.424,"end":8316.449,"text":"大學法已經等了20年這20年以來大學法宛如失控的老車橫衝直撞讓高校現場充斥了各種亂象我相信在座的各位都有目共睹台學院也要在這邊呼籲教育部不要再拖了過去20年來大學法明明在朝野都有共識卻遲遲沒有修法很明顯就是因為教育部以拖待變停滯不前我們誠摯期盼教育部能夠承諾何時可以提出不版的大學法草案而不是每次都說三個月三個月最後拖了一年又一年"},{"start":8317.677,"end":8340.163,"text":"在座各位先進,大學法要收,現在在朝野應該是有共識的。我們也要在這邊再次呼籲教育部,配合立法院提出不凡草案,整合各方意見。最後也要感謝所有有提案的委員,舒平老師以及范雲委員,也期盼朝委可以在日後盡快排審、排詢答,再讓這部20年的老車早日回到正軌,讓高等教育可以在師生期待下邁向新的篇章。"},{"start":8341.479,"end":8368.087,"text":"套一句學聯的標語30年後的社會答案就在今日的校園高等教育的重要性對台灣的未來是頗具影響的我再次拜託在座各位委員教育部可以正視師生的理性訴求以及改革讓台灣的高等教育可以有更好的未來謝謝大家我是台灣學生聯合會理事長陳玉仁好謝謝玉仁理事長我們現在請黃立成中興大學的學生代表發言"},{"start":8374.016,"end":8400.905,"text":"請趙涵茄佛光大學校長準備主席 各位委員初列席師長先進及與會的青年學生夥伴們大家好我是來自中興大學研究生黃立成像一句詩開頭我們穿著鞋子思考與土地連結的思考我們戴著墨鏡理解與太陽的對話我們戴著耳機傾聽於海浪的聲音我們用著最貼近土地的方法渴望找到做正確的答案"},{"start":8401.945,"end":8418.715,"text":"這體現我們學生我們學生代表在第一線面對大學法修法時的態度我們貼近基層我們追求理性透明我們傾聽多元意見我們傳遞校園當中最真實的聲音別人認為無論是大學自治還是學生自治都應重新回歸到全校教職員工生的共同體"},{"start":8419.415,"end":8442.731,"text":"建高一個創造包容共榮共好的學生自治校園身為學生十分感念各位立委在一次次的修法版本中邁向新高校共同治理的方向而從中我們也看到了民主化的曙光但也必須指出其能有可持續優化以及調整之處那有盡於此必然訴求基礎仍然是師生父權終結專制落實師生共治的校園"},{"start":8443.812,"end":8463.61,"text":"以下將聚焦整個關鍵命題病校程序、校長遴選與校務會議學生代表以及學生空間提出修法的修正與彙整意見首先在第一點在第七條的修訂中必然能夠理解私立學校在病校當中的難處但整個過程中的難處與可行性其實並不見得是衝突的"},{"start":8464.47,"end":8489.58,"text":"僅僅是現行校務會議的表達意見其實難以展現師生在校園當中的主體性而唯有經透過校務會議的同意方式才能為各方爭取權益在體制內保障最小心態的解方接著第二點對於第九條校長遴選宵刊條文確保資訊透明與學生的實時參與是文的目標校長遴選是大學博化願景的開端那無論師生其實都不能排除在外"},{"start":8490.34,"end":8513.955,"text":"進一方向他因綜合程序透明代表務實的目標確保兩名臨選會的學生代表確保兩名臨選會的學生代表並透過學生會自行選舉或推派以確保代表他的公共性而在程序透明性上面採納多位委員對於臨選委員會的名單以及會議紀錄的強制公開規定並增訂同意權行使程序的法源徹底終結委員所詬病的黑箱狀況"},{"start":8515.851,"end":8537.826,"text":"再來是校務會議第15條的條文終結專制和主體賦權我們認為現行大學法第15條規定會造成行政主管教師代表混淆不清的現象是比比皆是而批人十分支持教師代表應由未兼任學術與行政主管職者擔任並務實採納民眾黨版的比例規定未兼任行政主管職務之教師代表"},{"start":8538.266,"end":8546.238,"text":"因不得少於教師代表總數之三分之二而這也將有效賦予了校園主體在會議中的角色能力真正交還給第一線"},{"start":8547.526,"end":8570.522,"text":"而除了限縮校務會議的人數,重中之重還是在於學生代表的比例。無論是陳身為國立台灣大學第十九屆的學生議會議長,還是國立中興大學現任校務會議代表,必能皆十分贊同提升比例,不能讓未來的二十年,十分之一的下限繼續成為天花板。望各位可以權衡積極考量學生人數還是占校園人數當中最大宗,審慎其比例。"},{"start":8571.463,"end":8599.263,"text":"接著第四點 學生賦權我們希望能夠落實完整而獨立的學生自治現行大學法第33條中的輔導二制其實常年為各方解釋所苦那甚至造就了校方在行政程序上面瑕疵抑或著學生會人事財務法制的干預開口因此 必然十分支持將學生會獨立自治原則入法而授權教育部明確列出定義哪些有關會議到底必須由學生代表出席"},{"start":8600.023,"end":8624.361,"text":"我們也呼籲採納專責提供最完整的法治基礎務實解決學生會帶出會費的基礎問題讓校方和學生會不再因為選舉財務以及組織運作產生相互糾葛而接著在學生空間上面經由校方提供獨立且可全時段的活動空間並肩負必要的修繕維護才能解決學生在參與校園發展以及組織有效運作的最最基本條件"},{"start":8625.342,"end":8637.251,"text":"而對於相關定義便也要傳遞需求對於有些版本當中會使用學生團體一詞其實應該要在附帶決議亦或者是法條說明中去明確的定義出來而非產生模糊空間"},{"start":8638.972,"end":8656.077,"text":"總結我很渴望找到做正確的答案是一部能真正保障學生父權終結專制以及落實共治的大學法以完善制度與程序確保師生共治運作公開透明並持續優化發展也呼籲所有學生代表在學制領域當中繼續保持著共榮共好"},{"start":8656.417,"end":8677.14,"text":"互信互惠的精神內部能夠維繫良好的運作機制同時與外部保持著良善的溝通管道爭取學生權益的最大化也懇請各方能夠放下成見肩負著對未來的責任對未來20年的校園環境責任以此回合心去彙整出一部符合需求的憲法版本謝謝各位 以上"},{"start":8679.482,"end":8703.851,"text":"好 謝謝黃立誠中興大學的代表我們現在請趙涵潔校長發言下一位張玉萌理事長請準備主席 教育部的官員 還有在座所有的先進這是我第二次來參加這個會議 公聽會"},{"start":8707.559,"end":8722.527,"text":"剛剛大家一直談到大學把20年沒休了我也突然猛然想起來大學的學雜費20年沒漲了所以其實很多事情都糾結在那裡相當久的時間了那"},{"start":8723.513,"end":8751.73,"text":"我這邊大概對於大學法大致要修訂方向其實我個人並沒有太多反對意見因為的確時代不一樣不能拿以前的一些思維來推論現在的一些做法想法但是我必須提醒一下就是在整個修法過程裡頭大家要去思量一下未來20年以後你修完大學法以後未來20年以後我們現在大學到底面臨的挑戰是什麼"},{"start":8752.901,"end":8779.389,"text":"其實我個人認為在整個修法過程裡頭私立學校其實可以不用太在意它我們現在私立學校尤其是二線的私立學校我們現在都在求生存不是在求生活是在求生存學生的意見絕對不可能忽視的任何學生只要意見到我的辦公室我們每一個都非常親自重視我還簽交剛剛有個意見千交代萬交代"},{"start":8780.009,"end":8798.735,"text":"教務長一定要以學生的權益跟規章來出發來符合他的期待所以現在因為在少子化氛圍裡頭尤其是二線的私立學校他們承受了非常大的招生的壓力不可能會去虧待學生的在任何的一個角度裡頭"},{"start":8801.041,"end":8817.376,"text":"只要教育部能夠把握住或要求住各個勢力學校在對於教學品質上的要求,我們現在說真的在二線勢力大學也不太期待老師做研究,我們能把學生教好最重要。"},{"start":8819.277,"end":8846.282,"text":"我相信每個私立學校都很願意努力的繼續生存下去我想我們整個的重點應該就是在公校我個人在公校服務了一段時間應該是有一些經驗可以跟在座的所有先進們分享一下的我們現在正面臨戰後的嬰兒潮所有的老師大概都在這五年十年會大量的退休說句實話我們現在找不到老師教授找不到老師"},{"start":8847.382,"end":8863.921,"text":"這些嬰兒潮退掉我們現在要聘大量老師進來的時候萬一各個學校沒有什麼樣的把關機制的話又會堵在那裡一堵是三四十年三十幾年那怎麼樣去在保障老師權益之下讓各個學校有一些"},{"start":8865.441,"end":8883.264,"text":"进步的空间要求老师的空间这其实是蛮重要的我们其实现在很多学校都不敢再推所谓的四六条款了六八条款了但是怎么办呢怎么去要求老师们在进度学校尤其进入公校以后继续把他的研究教学做到"},{"start":8883.985,"end":8913.405,"text":"社會國家的期望帶著公校能夠在世界的排名裡頭繼續往前前進這非常非常重要因為我看得出來我們現在公校的排名一直在往後退當然大家會說排名有時候是非常主觀性的我完全同意這個想法就像是考試我們一般考試總是要針對老師要考的方向去準備沒有人去針對老師說不要考的地方去看書這是很奇怪的事所以排名當然是有他準備的技巧可是"},{"start":8914.446,"end":8930.784,"text":"這麼多的排名裡頭 綜合來看台灣的大學排名是的確在往後退的所以怎麼樣把老師的競爭力往上拉在整個大學法這一次修法裡頭一定要善加的思維我們怎麼樣去淘汰一些真的不適任的學校老師到達"},{"start":8933.12,"end":8956.089,"text":"另外一個重點當然就是遴選校長我認為遴選校長機制裡頭有學生代表參與是好事但是他參與的人數還有最重要就是學生會會長要參與校務會議要參與校長遴選委員會我都沒有意見但是他們的當初的得票率可不可以要有一些限制"},{"start":8957.049,"end":8976.915,"text":"我以前服務的學校有些學生代表學生會他們得票率非常非常少大概一兩百票就當選了我們有一萬個學生所以這是不是要相對的去考量一下這是一定的這事情都是相對的那臨選校長裡頭我們好不容易選出一個校長以後"},{"start":8978.462,"end":9002.017,"text":"在他續任的時候上次我有見過教育部真的續任的時候應該要做一些把關你要是教育部能夠真的下去請這個民調公司做一些民調其實大致就可以知道這校長在任內的表現是怎樣或者是這個這個有一些有一些設計因為我常常知道有些校長一得到教育部的"},{"start":9003.622,"end":9021.577,"text":"認可的標記後就用突襲的方式提到校務會議提出討論一兩個禮拜就把投票通過基本上應該至少要有一個月公告讓大家沉靜下來知道校長要連任了要投票了讓大家真正沉思一下過去四年到底校長表現是如何"},{"start":9022.017,"end":9039.165,"text":"这是我对公校的一些看法那公校卓越私校生存应该是我们这一次大学法的修正应该是要很慎重的去考虑下去的否则这个20年以后说一句实话真的是天下围攻只剩下公立学校了我的报告到这里谢谢大家"},{"start":9041.598,"end":9070.605,"text":"好 謝謝趙校長的肺腑之言提出來說對公校跟私校裡面的看法我覺得蠻重要的也是因為這次的學校裡面這次代表裡面大學的校長或是高校的代表比較少那這部分真的有想要改革的話意見還是可以多元的發聲啦好 謝謝我們現在請張玉萌理事長發言洪聖祥常務理事請準備"},{"start":9079.365,"end":9100.858,"text":"主席各位委員還有教育部的代表還有今天在現場一起關注高教的好朋友們大家早安我是來自世代共好協會的理事長張玉萌很感謝今天可以以青年組織的身份在這邊在立法院針對我們的大學法提出修法的建議"},{"start":9102.179,"end":9122.498,"text":"其實我們一直以來想要強調的事情是台灣的大學治理早就已經不只是在過去談說行政或者是教師的領域而是必須要回應一個很重要的精神也就是高等教育其實在一個社會中扮演的角色應該是公共財剛剛看起來我們不同的代表"},{"start":9122.918,"end":9151.347,"text":"其实背景当然非常的多元来自公司立的大学也来自不同的团体可是从大学方或者是从校长或者是从学生代表其实看起来应该都有修法的共识而且这个也是回应到我们这20年来不断的追求所以其实我非常感谢今天刘淑冰委员赵伟安排这样的公听会因为赵伟看到在社会上面"},{"start":9151.727,"end":9173.752,"text":"不論是學校不論是校長不論是行政人員甚至從這些教師然後到學生修法或者是現在談大學法的改革看起來是最大的共識所以我們也希望立法院真的可以在這一屆可以來完成那我自己過去大學時期擔任台大學生會的學術部長"},{"start":9174.372,"end":9189.784,"text":"那當時正好正值台大的校長領選所以各位也都了解經歷了很多風風雨雨社會上面高度的關注但是這也讓學校裡面參與校務學生如何來持續的參與成為很重要激烈討論的一個標的"},{"start":9193.066,"end":9215.653,"text":"在校內有這樣高度的討論其實我們是樂見的不論是爭議與否學生可以持續來參與其實我們就認為非常的感謝過去我們看到從我自己在進入大學以前大學法就已經有呼聲應該要做改革等到我實際投入了學生會成為改革的倡議者大學法持續在立法院裡面討論到2022年一度"},{"start":9218.394,"end":9241.153,"text":"在立法院里面有四党之间跨党派的共识这是很难得的但是仍然功败垂成那我们看起来现在应该从刚刚发言的委员还有今天苏冰召委来安排这样的公听会我们也真的很希望这一届就是改革的一届第十一届就应该来让这样的大学法可以跟上时代因为过去这二十年来"},{"start":9242.134,"end":9259.657,"text":"社會有非常多重大的變遷包含我們的大學不同的合併也包含我們大學的退場也包含過去少子化對於大學造成海嘯般的衝擊但是這一部高教的母法至今仍然像是從侏羅紀時代穿越到現在跟不上時代"},{"start":9260.197,"end":9285.514,"text":"所以我基本上今天想要提四點大學法已經不容迴避的改革方向第一點剛剛各位先進已經有提過了是大學校長的領選委員會應該明文保障學生代表的席次讓大學的治理可以回歸公共性事實上目前全台灣的公立大學已經大概有七成讓學生參與校長領選然而校長是全校最重要公共治理的位置"},{"start":9285.794,"end":9309.236,"text":"但是現在卻沒有一個這樣明文保障學生的參與那導致各校的標準也不一所以我們強調說是時候應該讓校長遴選委員會有學生的參與而且是法規的明定大學本來就不是私人企業所以不管公私立的大學當然都接受了公共資源的挹注校長遴選的過程自然就不應該閉門造局其實如果縱觀歐陸頂尖的大學"},{"start":9311.358,"end":9337.177,"text":"87所的歐洲大學裡面30所學生代表已經占超過25%以上而學生占15%以下的學校只有11間反而是少數這個不是說外國的月亮比較圓在近年來大學的校長領選過程本來就很常受到社會高度的檢視甚至產生爭議學生卻沒有完整的參與管道難道排除學生的參與可以讓這樣的爭議自然化解嗎"},{"start":9337.757,"end":9352.924,"text":"第二重中之重就是提高校務會議的學生代表參與從現行的十分之一提高我們非常期待可以提高到五分之一甚至更高過去其實從高級中等教育法就已經參考大學法把學生的代表訂入母法"},{"start":9353.724,"end":9371.258,"text":"但是高中過去是因為參考大學定在下限是10%所以高中定8%但各級學校現在都已經往保障學生表一權前進20年沒修的大學法在這一次修法過程我認為完全沒有空間來迴避學生代表比例提高其實如果縱觀法國 荷蘭"},{"start":9373.24,"end":9392.928,"text":"挪威等等的國家學生參與本來就是常態而且在日常生活的這種分享權利過程中25%以上的代表權是常態是非常常見的所以在台灣我們參考現在大學的現狀5分之1甚至到4分之1已經是很卑微的要求那我們也認為說"},{"start":9394.429,"end":9421.719,"text":"不容迴避的還包含有學校裡面教師代表不應該兼任行政職那我們應該要來訂定這樣的法規明確的要求否則這是一個很嚴重的問題讓大學的實際校會會議的教師參與成為橡皮圖章第三我想要談的是學生會的專章訂定剛剛先進也已經提到了保障學生會的表意權以及複雜的學生自治型態所以簡單提三點第一點是應該要明確保障"},{"start":9422.119,"end":9440.596,"text":"學校有義務來代收學生會的會費因為學生本來就沒有這樣龐大的行政資源來支撐這樣的會費代收第二個應該要保障學生會的獨立運作空間那第三個應該要保障學生資組織的財務選舉等等人士受到法律明確保障不受行政單位的"},{"start":9441.517,"end":9463.403,"text":"個別決定那最後我想要談補充的一點是今天比較少提到的是應該要在大學法裡面就訂定大學住宿保障學生可以簽入戶籍那其實這個部分在金門已經長期的實施了因為金門的同學他要購買離島的這些船票機票等等他必須要有這樣的戶籍簽簽可是呢其實我們根據現在戶籍法"},{"start":9463.703,"end":9482.183,"text":"也應該要來保障這樣的權利但目前都沒有落實導致大學成為學生成為隱形的人口所以我們應該要在大學法裡面就來保障大學應該要允許學生來遷入戶籍並且不得拒絕以上那最後想要補充的是教育部的版本希望可以真的不要再拖延一旦"},{"start":9483.084,"end":9511.997,"text":"行政部門沒有提出具體的內容立法院跟社會期待都會被迫空轉那校園也會停留在20年前的過去所以我們也要強烈的呼籲教育部真的 拜託拜託務必在本會期就提出大學法修法的版本讓我們跟社會一起共同推進一步符合這個時代的大學法謝謝大家好 謝謝張理事長我們現在請最後一位發言是洪正祥常務理事"},{"start":9521.332,"end":9538.922,"text":"舒冰老師 各位在場的與會先進 大家好我是EDUS 台灣EDU教育協會的常務理事 洪正祥EDUS是由一群高中生和大學生組成的學生團體對我們來說 如何讓學生的聲音在教育現場被聽見是我們最在意 而且最核心的訴求我目前是東武大學學生議會的議長"},{"start":9540.003,"end":9565.532,"text":"那今天很高興能夠有機會在這邊參加大學法修法的公聽會其實早在去年11月的時候立法院就已經有舉辦相似議題的公聽會了但將近一年很高興看到跨黨派委員正式遞交草案內容但是行政院依然沒有送出有關大學法修法的院版那期待未來能夠儘速將這個法案覆為進行主條審查讓大學法將近20年的改革不再只是理想"},{"start":9566.687,"end":9589.729,"text":"那今天在場有很多來自不同組織或不同單位的學生是夥伴或前輩那在場只有一位我是來自思義大學的代表那我想先從這次草案中關於思義大學校長遴選的規定來做說明那目前的條文規定在公立大學的部分我們至少還能討論可能關於校長遴選委員會的選代表細詞但在思義大學來說校長遴選幾乎完全是董事會的閉門遊戲"},{"start":9591.15,"end":9616.512,"text":"也就是我們在所謂沒有學生代表的校長選委會選完這個校長候選人以後我們要送這個董事會圈選然後送他備查也就是董事會擁有最終的這個決定權讓這個私校董事會擁有決定權的狀況底下學生幾乎沒有智慧的餘地這也導致了現今某些私校容易成為可能特定家族或是某些特定團體的輸送利益的空間"},{"start":9617.353,"end":9635.818,"text":"那以我所在的東吳大學來說,就上一次校長的領選過程中,學校就已說因為我們快要領選了,所以這一次的校長領選暫時不加入學生代表,這是當時潘校長的決定。那等到了現在換了陳瞻校長,學校又說什麼?學校說因為我們離校長領選還有一段時間,所以我們暫時沒有要來討論有關校長領選會加入學生代表。"},{"start":9640.859,"end":9650.924,"text":"这个真的是拖了又拖然后各种理由都让学生代表迟迟没有办法进入校长领选委员会而辅仁大学其实还没有面临到相似的困境"},{"start":9652.165,"end":9678.273,"text":"那私校的学生其实不应该是学生参与校园的法位之地我们建议修法方向应该朝向公司力透过处理但标准向上看齐具体来说就是私立大学的校长领权委员会应强制纳入教职员生代表其比例应该至少有两名的学生代表更进一步来说让校园的学生的代表性能够对这个不适合校长候选人心事否决权这才是落实大学自治方度"},{"start":9678.553,"end":9692.294,"text":"私校特定家族化或者是利益输送的最有效的机制再来针对消费学生代表的部分那其实去年EDUS就在这个相同的场合表示支持学生代表应该有四分之一的比例那因为现实的状况底下"},{"start":9693.837,"end":9707.407,"text":"學生代表在各項會議中容易淪為裝飾性的橡皮圖章學生是教育的主體也是學校政策最關係的直接利害人其實我們除了賦權以外剛有提到Empower也要能夠賠利能夠賦能"},{"start":9712.318,"end":9731.229,"text":"更要給予他們支持那法案中對於校會議代表賠利跟賦能的部分我們建議未來除了青年署有舉辦相關的營隊以外也可以參考現行國教署在高中端的各項鼓勵措施或者是有關諮詢的方式那剛有提到有關學生代表出席的問題以我在東吳大學的經驗來說每兩週都要開行政會議那"},{"start":9735.111,"end":9762,"text":"甚至那个开会期间甚至是苏冰老师我上他那堂课的期间那常常需要来回不同校区而无论是行政会议学务会议甚至是校务会议其实他们都不见得会正行学生的开会时间这个原因其实就来自于学生如果没有办法出席的话行政单位也能照样开会那我们认为在有效提升校务及教务学务总务会议的选代表可以有效提升学生代表一方面的代表性和出席意愿"},{"start":9762.64,"end":9774.06,"text":"否則學生在極少數的代表之下有時要提案就像在做社會改革需要積極說服所以十分的困難再來談到學生自治的部分就是"},{"start":9775.316,"end":9803.183,"text":"其實因為時間的關係那我就快速帶過學生在二制組是常常被視為這個學校單位的附屬那我們希望現行的輔導二制在實務上可以改為可能協助就是不再被校方資一解釋為指導或者是管控因為我們常常看到比如說像我們在東吳大學的狀況底下我們在學生會費的代收或是學生空間的使用上其實都非常的困難我這邊舉一個例以學生會費代收的狀況來說東吳大學今年的會費是收了43萬但是台大跟政大都收了接近200萬"},{"start":9804.443,"end":9826.891,"text":"那這就是我們在先撇開學生會費的數額的問題但是在繳交比例上不同的方式就會有給予不同的學生會費的這個收學金額接下來再拉出來談一個部分就是剛有提到有關私立大學的部分我覺得可以特別提一下就是有關之前華夏科大並台科大的問題其實當時在病校的時候幾乎沒有徵詢華夏科大學生的意見"},{"start":9829.076,"end":9853.402,"text":"也給大家一個點來思考就從師大的學生會費案來做一個思考那現行的判例底下學生會長是可以針對每一位沒有繳學生的沒有繳會費的學生提出訴訟而且依據這個行政法院的判例是有高機率可以勝訴的那這種情況呢其實未來不見得不會發生所以其實提供必要的知識和法源依據其實對於保障學生會員或保障學生會員其實都是非常重要的也是保障他們繳費的這個權利跟義務那"},{"start":9857.762,"end":9862.861,"text":"那最後再提一點我覺得因為今天雨薇在場先進非常多那我想最後再提一點就是今天祭祀司剛好在場那"},{"start":9865.205,"end":9892.563,"text":"其实现在的这个假实习真廉价劳工的剥削这个状况还是很明显那尤其我们在新南向计划招了非常多这个来自不同国家的学生那其实剥削学生的新闻屡见不选那其实我们希望未来在学校与不同单位签订产业合作还有实习相关合约时应该强制纳入学生代表检视劳动环境合约内容高校治理不应该只是冷冰冰的绩效指标更应该看见活生生的学生处境那我们希望未来大学法可以"},{"start":9895.265,"end":9911.092,"text":"進行審查讓大學法的改革不再需要苦等20年而是一個從承認學生信任學生與學生共同治理大學的新開始謝謝各位好謝謝洪正祥常務理事現在請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":9921.291,"end":9949.589,"text":"謝謝主席首先感謝這麼多關心學生自治的同學還有教授來參加這場公聽會必須要說在2025年的今天以立法委員的身份在教文委員會針對大學法的修正來發言我心裡有非常非常深的感觸過去我是大學生的時候"},{"start":9951.072,"end":9975.185,"text":"我們被教導的是大學跟學生之間彼此是特別權力關係學生所受到的處分必須要接受必須要服從不可以尋求司法的救濟當時還是法律系學生的我我只想問一個最簡單的問題為什麼有權力就有救濟的這件事情"},{"start":9976.71,"end":10004.088,"text":"在我國竟然變成特別權力關係難道只因為有一個德國學者叫做Otomaya他發明了這個理論台灣就要照單全收嗎接下來當我擔任台大學生會會長的時候這時候立法院在1993年審議大學法引發了學生非常高度的關注我們那時候關注什麼事情第一個"},{"start":10005.72,"end":10031.92,"text":"誰給教育部權利訂大學共同必修科目標第二個學生為什麼不能出席校務會議出席校務會議為什麼不需要有最低的代表第三個為什麼大學法對學生自治的規範密度幾乎是零沒有提供學生自治制度性的保障更遑論學生權利義務保護專章當年的這些抗爭"},{"start":10033.427,"end":10061.306,"text":"讓我們在立法院前面留下了遺憾非常多該處理的事情在1993年那一年大學法的修正完全沒有著墨完全沒有著墨就把整個戰場授權各個大學回到各個大學的組織規程開始訂定產生的就是學生跟教授的衝突這個是1993年12月"},{"start":10063.533,"end":10088.364,"text":"我帶著學生會的幹部跟關心學生自治的同學包圍台大行政大樓我們主張那一年的校務會議違法我們自己在外面開學生版的台大臨時校務會議那些年的衝撞我們只希望做到一件事讓大學自治不要稀薄成教授自教"},{"start":10090.082,"end":10106.172,"text":"讓大學自治能夠落實制度性的保障讓大學自治真的可以讓學生不僅僅是受教育的課題而是真正大學的主體"},{"start":10107.694,"end":10133.387,"text":"在經過了那麼漫長時間的抗爭以後到了現在2025年我們再來看目前的大學法令人遺憾的事情是20幾年的時間過去了20幾年時間過去了但是當年沒有完成的改革現在還繼續在原地踏步我大學畢業的那一年1995年"},{"start":10136.768,"end":10162.709,"text":"1995年那個時候大法官終於還給我們公道4至380說教育部沒有權利並共同必修科目標這是違憲的 侵害大學自治隔了一個月4至382廢除特別權利醫務關係讓學生受到退學及其他類似的處分的時候可以提起行政救濟"},{"start":10164.143,"end":10176.175,"text":"當然4-382以今天的角度來講還過度保守後來慢慢的被擴充後來慢慢的被變更但是學生在第一線"},{"start":10177.532,"end":10198.743,"text":"所遭遇到的困境第一線所遭遇到的困境不會因為可以提起司法救助而得到實質的改善2010年的時候有一個師大的學生他成立一個異議性的社團那個異議性的社團叫邊緣之聲學校開始刁難他所以你為什麼要從邊緣發聲你為什麼不從核心發聲"},{"start":10204.885,"end":10231.287,"text":"連社團的名稱都要管簡直是莫名其妙不准他用邊緣之稱來當作社團的名字那個時候我還是個學者對於他被寄過被退學的行政訴訟我義務擔任他的訴願代理人在教育部前面真實教育部"},{"start":10232.441,"end":10257.04,"text":"增值那所私立大學憑什麼有權利違法濫權剝奪這個學生的受教權當年的溯源贏了贏了以後這個學生的權利獲得救濟了嗎沒有溯源贏了把原處分撤銷撤銷回去以後給那個大學那個大學再做一次處分還是退學還是退學"},{"start":10258.835,"end":10279.14,"text":"這個是為什麼在法律層面的保障欠缺制度性的保障的時候學生在面對爭取學權的過程當中所遭遇到的困難所遭遇到的打壓活生生血淋淋的例子也正是因為如此這一次"},{"start":10280.273,"end":10304.32,"text":"台灣民眾黨針對大學法我們有提出具體的版本也有具體的修法主張那我也感謝我們部分區的委員劉書斌劉委員也是現在的召委領先提出我們的訴求非常的清楚校長遴選委員會要有學生代表校務會議的學生代表比例應該提高"},{"start":10306.317,"end":10327.41,"text":"落實學生自治 杜絕校方干預當然我們所提出來的草案或許在現在第一線大學的現場裡面或許有不周延 或許可以再補強這也是我們今天召委召開公聽會的初衷"},{"start":10328.413,"end":10352.201,"text":"那我們也歡迎也懇請所有關心大學法改革關心學生自治的朋友們對台灣民眾黨黨團的提案有哪些必須要修正有哪些必須要補強都歡迎各位先進各位老師各位同學不吝予以指教我們在接下來委員會審查的過程當中"},{"start":10353.061,"end":10369.011,"text":"在黨團協商的過程當中在我們提出最後版本之前台灣民眾黨都願意敞開心胸聆聽各界的指教跟建議謝謝大家好 謝謝黃國昌委員的發言"},{"start":10372.967,"end":10397.553,"text":"我們可以看出來整個立法的過程當中從1993年到現在的2025年當中經歷了將近三十多年的一個發展剛剛國商委員已經把這個歷程還有他自己本身參與到作為一個學生會的代表然後參加這整個歷程做了一個說明那也是呈現出來的一個"},{"start":10398.633,"end":10422.344,"text":"再度把本党的一个意见就是在于学校里面的校长临选一定要有学生的代表在此变一定要比例然后还有校务会议的代表当中的一个比例要提升另外还包括的是大学自治里面应该回到的是一个学校为主体而不是在属于教授自治这一部分"},{"start":10423.264,"end":10441.759,"text":"這樣子尤其是剛才也聽到的是趙校長有提到的很重要的是學生這部分的一個意見是在變成是學校裡面的主體性要呈現出來那當然我們剛才聽到是今天不只是說在代表的是各個委員的各個委員的聲音還包括的是各個黨都已經"},{"start":10443.78,"end":10472.96,"text":"知道的是最大的公司就是委員現在希望的是大學法一定到了應該要修的程度了二十幾年甚至三十年的一個歷程不能夠再等所以請教育部能夠等一下就應該要請的是朱市長你要做一個回覆做一個整體的回覆當中就說明到目前聽了眾多的意見代表包括立委的意見之後你們教育部有什麼樣的一個綜合的意見現在就請教育部"},{"start":10482.488,"end":10496.601,"text":"主席高委員還有各位女士先生大家好今天很高興有我們19位的委員跟來自於我們各界包含校長同學還有老師們的一個建議"},{"start":10497.842,"end":10525.646,"text":"那初步來看其實大家提的大概是五大類的問題一個部分是有關於校長遴選一個部分是有關於校務會議的一個角色第三個是有關於老師權益的保障第四個是有關學生自治的參與那最後當然還有個別委員提到了一些對於高校現場一些問題以及未來高校可以發展的一些機會想法措施大概是這五大類那因為"},{"start":10526.787,"end":10550.109,"text":"各位提的意見其實是相當的豐富而且都有提出相關的不管是國外的經驗現場的實務這部分第一個部分教育部這邊我們會承諾我們會根據各位提出來的這些意見我們會都會納入這一次因應劉淑冰委員還有方英委員提出來的版本教育部都會盡可能的來"},{"start":10551.27,"end":10574.632,"text":"纳入来找出一个大家可以接受的一个建议第二个部分就这四个面向我想主要大概就是在校长领选校务会议的定位以及老师跟学生权益保障这四个部分在谈这个四个部分之前我们可能还是可以先去思考一下就是说"},{"start":10575.413,"end":10598.61,"text":"大學的定位跟公私立學校角色的不同因為它就會影響到我們對於校長怎麼產生校會議跟校長董事會之間它的權責義務關係以及我們對於老師角色的一個期待還有對於學生自治參與我們應該予以重視大概就會衍生出來的這幾個想法"},{"start":10602.092,"end":10612.439,"text":"如果以我們對於大學的期待來講大學法一開始其實就講得很清楚它是培育人才提升文化服務社會學術研究來促進國家發展"},{"start":10615.066,"end":10631.358,"text":"在這樣的一個架構之下我們來看這是大學的一個任務角色它一個很大的不同如果我們要提到老師的保障它裡面剛剛其實也有雨薇先生提到研究這一塊其實可能是中小學這個部分"},{"start":10633.299,"end":10657.886,"text":"並不是他主要的一個任務之一但是在大學來講老師的研究能量服務社會的能量這個部分可能相對國中小會擔負更大的責任那這部分怎麼來兼顧老師的保障以及大學的發展剛剛其實趙校長也提出這樣類似的想法那這會可以作為我們未來在評估大學跟老師之間的權利與關係我們怎麼來看"},{"start":10659.673,"end":10666.649,"text":"第二個 大學的任務裡面其實也特別強調服務社會強調提升文化 培育人才"},{"start":10667.284,"end":10696.984,"text":"那这相对应的大概就是各位很重视的公共性的问题这个部分其实从公共性的角度来看我们就可以衍生出来说那我们对私立学校公私立学校之间的要求刚刚大家提到我们希望我们的大学的校长的临选公私立应该也要有一定的做法而不是让目前的私立学校的校长临选这么封闭"},{"start":10697.344,"end":10708.038,"text":"甚至說到校務會議的一些重要決議最後是董事會決定我想剛剛我們也老師跟同學都提出這樣看法這是一個很好的方向"},{"start":10709.585,"end":10731.545,"text":"因為以私立學校法來講 我們剛看的是大學法 私立學校法裡面第一條它開宗明義是什麼它提到的是要健全私人的辦學 然後去提升私校的公共性跟自主性公共性是其中私校法要提 但是它講的是提升"},{"start":10733.026,"end":10751.692,"text":"顯然他跟公立大學之間角色是不太一樣的所以剛剛提到的要讓董事會在校長遴選在校務的決定上賦予師生賦予社會比較高強度的社會的公開老師學生的參與提高公共性我想這個方向是沒有錯但是"},{"start":10752.572,"end":10767.659,"text":"也要留意並不是去取代董事會因為以私立校門來講他是要鼓勵一些私人心血這中間的一個尺寸可能就是我們在決定到底董事會跟老師學生在校長遴選之間參與這個角色是什麼"},{"start":10770.76,"end":10792.209,"text":"在校務會議裡面校長 董事會還有全校師生三者之間的權責關係是什麼這要一起去討論所以如果我們把它個別切開大家都可以提出很多的論述但是如果我們回到大學的角色定位回到公私立學校的一個角色定位其實大家講的都有道理"},{"start":10792.549,"end":10800.017,"text":"但是這之間的平衡這也是各位會覺得說交易部為什麼花很多時間在跟我們各個團體做討論因為這個部分其實"},{"start":10803.393,"end":10825.085,"text":"我們目前的討論很多有時候都比較會是在議題式的可是教育部我們嘗試的是要從整個大學的定位公司力的權責甚至校長 董事會 校會之間的劃分來做討論我跟各位舉一個例子在83年的全案修正再來是94年大學法全案修正"},{"start":10825.965,"end":10841.453,"text":"至少在校務會議這個部分就做了很大的調整如果各位可以去看83年的大選法跟94年的大選法校務會的角色他拿掉了一個東西學校的最高決策單位這是在83年校務會議到94年校務會議把"},{"start":10847.239,"end":10863.408,"text":"大學法把校務會議跟校長之間的權責做了一些更清楚的釐清當然這部分是不是做得更好這大家可以討論大家至少嘗試把以前的校長行政權跟校務會議以前校務會議是被認為是最高的決策機構那校長是什麼"},{"start":10865.103,"end":10883.761,"text":"所以这之间有汉格在94年修大学把它做了一个处理那我们今天对于大学校长角色对于校务会议的一个监督我们更有期许那我们要尝试建立一个新的治理角色可能不是只有在于学生代表的比例或是老师卫健行政代表比例"},{"start":10884.762,"end":10902.827,"text":"下場的權責要不要有一些調整如果我們要做這樣的一個評估的話我覺得這個可能是要比較通盤的來想我覺得這幾年在大學法這邊有點卡關就是說我們可能目前都只想到幾個議題但是可能我們再要回歸去設想我們期待未來"},{"start":10903.527,"end":10928.358,"text":"下一個世代30年的大學那校長校務會議之間的關係是怎麼樣這點我覺得我們也可以教育部我們也會來做一些研究提供給我們老師同學跟校長的一個參考那最後我也提到到學生自治參與這一塊我想這一塊是教育部高度認可也期待來做青年署也一直努力的在嘗試來做"},{"start":10929.378,"end":10947.129,"text":"那要不要入法當然我覺得這是一個期待也是我們應該努力的方向那比如說提到的學生會它的規章人事空間產生等等我想我也跟我們幾個學生團體代表都談過"},{"start":10948.49,"end":10965.657,"text":"修法我們一定會朝這個方向來努力但是大學也提出大學的一些他們的觀察比如說代表性的問題學生參與的問題但是我必須說這就如同像我們幾位會長講的這就是雞生蛋 蛋生雞你沒給他"},{"start":10967.845,"end":10986.436,"text":"決策權你沒給他賦權他當然學生的參與意願就是低那這個部分怎麼去跳出跳出這一個循環這也是我們可能接下來要跟同學一起來做思考的我想比較細部的一個條件的一個一個措施的回應我在這邊"},{"start":10987.877,"end":11008.102,"text":"沒有辦法逐一的跟各位代表說明但是我接下來會部裡面我們因為已經有兩個版本在這邊我也期待教育部趕快來中整大家的意見提出一些具體的建議我想各位提的這些問題我們應該會在接下來的時間會盡快的跟各位與會先進做討論以上報告"},{"start":11011.052,"end":11028.61,"text":"好 謝謝朱市長的發言那我剛才綜合一下就在於說現在是校長的這個角色當然也涉及到跟他職權是有關係的第二個部分就是公資力大學"},{"start":11030.332,"end":11046.581,"text":"它的設立的目的性有差異性不過剛才聽到佛光大學的校長他也提到了一個部分如果在一個前提之下是少子化會公併私的條件會成熟的話那這個部分可能問題會比較小一點點"},{"start":11048.722,"end":11072.233,"text":"那我知道如果教育部已经往这个方向讲的话应该我们是希望说你也知道了几十年来就是二三十年来就是往这个方向进行是不是在这边可能也应该我想应该有一个实诚性也许我们透过一个在询答部分的一个过程当中再把你们应该是已经有所准备只是这部分我刚才说那个趋势是方向是"},{"start":11073.902,"end":11096.572,"text":"公併司的話是可能會預見出來的話那校長的職權上面當然公跟司會有差別但是如果有公併司的話這個部分董事會的角色在這邊是重要但是怎麼樣去讓他調和這部分尤其是學生剛才都呈現出來學生的部分也是學費的一個最主要的來源那教育部他當然也是重要的在有經費讓人補助到學校"},{"start":11097.392,"end":11127.112,"text":"可是在公跟司這邊教育部如果沒問題學生又是最主要的學費的來源的話那這兩個其實就有很大的一個最大的目的最大的兩顆還群體就是在經費上面補助這樣就可以讓董事會有一些更多的一個目標性的指引所以我想說下一次的情況之下就是應該會往期待教育部跟有這個院版或是至少教育部我們看到的是有些教育部的意見版就會出現然後繼續的往後面的尋答方向去進行"},{"start":11127.552,"end":11152.442,"text":"可能這一屆的一個提出最後的就是有個修法的一個成果應該是可以預期當然我們需要說現在才第四會期但是我們希望可能在這個會期可能不曉得但是問題是下一個會期應該是有機會這一部分好就是這樣子那現在如果沒有什麼意見那我們現在這一次的會議呢我就做一下一個結語"},{"start":11154.537,"end":11169.715,"text":"依據立法院職權行使法第58條規定委員會應該在公聽會的10日內依照出席者所提供的正反意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者第59條規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案的參考"},{"start":11174.441,"end":11200.734,"text":"來作為議案的參考那我們會把各位的發言意見跟所有的書面資料綜合歸納會編成冊送交本院的全體委員及所有出席與會貴賓今天就非常感謝各位的出席來公聽會我們大家所提供的寶貴意見包括我們還包括教育部都會審慎的作為未來修法的依據那就謝謝大家今天的參與辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":11208.39,"end":11210.741,"text":"大家合照嗎大家到這邊合照嗎"}]}},{"id":"166226","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166226","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b31ca548eca49e9b7d995c18a0804ac8789da9d853841b9c5bd286ba3e6171f3d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:20:06 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部長就坐著啦部長 高麗菜啊 今年高麗菜啊產量過剩那個價格價格大跌現在這個農民很辛苦而且無助所以啊最近啊我一方面為了幫助這個幫助這個農民一方面也幫我們嘉義鄉親加菜 所以我這禮拜"},{"start":53.374,"end":81.572,"text":"我就買了一些高麗菜回去送給這個鄉親 讓這個農民不要那麼辛苦不要那麼辛苦那透過八位里長在家裡來領的人也很多那很多農民就在問齊凱一件事情 他就說要靜靜 要靜的時候農業部應該可以適度跟他們提醒可是我看了一下 現在有兩個大的問題你看喔 來我們看下一張來 你看一下"},{"start":82.845,"end":108.493,"text":"除了燈號之外 我看你們花了五個紅燈然後三個黃燈以後 後來紅燈又掉下來嘛那很多專家寫者就在建議啊他說高麗菜差不多等年都有產銷適合這個事情嘛對不對啊 幾乎每年都發生啊那農業部能不能在這個外銷上面多去幫助農民尤其是東北亞這個亞洲的這個東北亞很多都需要一些蔬菜嘛 因為高麗菜這個農業部可以做嗎"},{"start":109.858,"end":136.876,"text":"我跟你們報告第一個部分就是我們相對的如果到了東南亞東北亞日本還有韓國還有機會有一部分但是那個量比較少因為我們的高利貸的硬度跟國外的是不太一樣的部分但是成本的問題是比較困難但是我們還是會努力拉一些外交的還有一些簡易的問題我去探討以後我發現外交是一條很重要的路你看看"},{"start":139.831,"end":150.943,"text":"下一張那個整個那個外銷台你看其實陳吉仲在1862年他曾經提過他跟全民宣誓說在108年的時候啊我們外銷農產品的這個"},{"start":153.55,"end":174.372,"text":"金額要達到60億美金 你看喔這條就是我們外銷歷年來從民國100年一直到112年農產品外銷的十幾年來都是幾乎是一個平的線而且到了最近這幾年還是往下降沒有達到陳其中當初跟全民保證跟農民保證了"},{"start":176.161,"end":187.062,"text":"60億美金沒有一年達到對不對你看這個108年也沒有達到然後更嚴重的所以這幾年還在掉外銷外銷這部分能不能趕快加強好不好"},{"start":189.073,"end":214.807,"text":"我跟委員報告這幾年外銷有稍微下滑那最主要幾個因素就是第一個部分就是因為其實去年跟特別是去年跟今年我們遇到很多颱風我們自己的生命就不太夠了有沒有因為外銷的這些品項受到因為颱風的影響所以減少了部分所以這個部分我想我們還會更精準的去走高端市場讓他的量比較少但是他的價格是不是可以比較高一點來維持這個我們會來努力"},{"start":216.869,"end":221.557,"text":"增加量,然後你講的很好,就是包括價格要提升,因為你隔壁財來看它在107年你看曾經7645結果到了"},{"start":229.707,"end":248.481,"text":"113年竟然只剩下它十分之一然後講這個萎縮得太嚴重了那另外有一個點農民在反映的農民在外銷可以多幫他們的這個同時現在好像很多都是後來就買去就是當成那個多元循環經濟就是當肥料了"},{"start":250.399,"end":276.405,"text":"我想甘藍的部分我們不做去化的部分因為甘藍的部分第一個就是我們有一些警示而且我們很多也發簡訊發到農民的手中那威華你也知道嗎因為甘藍的部分如果說維持在10塊上下過去都是因為他們都認為說量多的時候政府就會出手所以他就不斷的種多啦所以現在目前大概12塊吧現在"},{"start":278.145,"end":305.952,"text":"12到15之間現在是比較穩定當然前一段時間量比較多的話是也比較節12到15這真的很慘對不對12到15應該是一個合理的利率對啦那剛才外銷其實你看剛才的外銷其實這幾年的外銷還是有成長我們會來努力就是拉到其他的國家但是檢疫的問題可能要更慎重來處理農民在歡迎說你現在去其實我包括高麗菜有些都有拿去做那個去化你看100克白泥"},{"start":307.361,"end":325.651,"text":"還有到113還有一些當然盡量減少我甚至說買回來不一定買回去還是可以做很多事情啊不只是外銷啊你還是可以做充分的利用以前那個香蕉比較多跟國防部都有些合作啊"},{"start":326.931,"end":354.968,"text":"買回去如果只要有一個一定的用途那價格應該有一部分可以當加工的部分加工也可以用最重要最重要的就是讓他們的價格可以提升了解我們來講另外一個就是工糧收購工糧收購那時候通過了一公斤調高五塊錢之後博定你說怕調高之後生產會過剩可是我現在很明確明確給你看事實上去年調高之後"},{"start":356.124,"end":383.247,"text":"到座的面積沒有升反而往下降對不對那是因為我們的糧食產業政策有沒有我剛才說的我們只處理福島收購價格然後相對的增加相對的供糧收購量而不是用五塊去所以用我們的政策很實際的現在的糧價就支撐在那邊而且繳供糧的反而變少了表示說用民糧的方式就可以來處理"},{"start":385.485,"end":403.147,"text":"你跟農民講說一下子調高太多事實證明就沒有沒有啊那是因為我們的政策才造成這樣的而不是直接拉五塊拉五塊一定不是今天這個結果政策是一部分啦我現在是跟你講說你當初跟農民講說會很多人搶著走那就沒有嘛沒有"},{"start":404.148,"end":415.546,"text":"從這個數據很清楚 就是面積更多的面積反而降委員 這個誤解喔我們是用我們的政策去推動才能夠獲得這樣的成果而不是用五塊錢直接加購五塊錢加購絕對不是今天這個成果"},{"start":416.564,"end":439.202,"text":"喔不對喔 你那個五塊錢是朝野協商過了民進黨也說要退你那個現在只調了一塊八對不對你當然有某些政策啦可是你陸陸續續你有答應還要陸陸續續續還要再抬不管怎麼樣 不管委員的這些提案我們的重點就是讓農民的收益變多嘛然後現在用我們的政策讓農民的收益就已經變得很穩定而且變高這是大家願意看到的嘛升高了三分之一嘛"},{"start":439.682,"end":466.332,"text":"有人做了統計說我們全國農民因為這個政策可能今年多收入可能有40億那現在就是要適度再增更你要三分還欠農民三分之二沒有 這個不能這樣講這不能這樣講因為您提的提案跟我們的提案目的就是讓農民所得保障跟提高用我們的政策除了保障水稻的農民也保障了一些種雜糧的部分所以大家一起提高那是我們共同期待看到的目標"},{"start":466.872,"end":484.86,"text":"就是台灣民眾黨提案 國民黨也提案我們完成了立法院 民進黨也沒有反對啊所以是三黨通過的美工經驗調高五塊那你說你用的政策很好後來做了一個決策慢慢讓農民可以收入可以增加這是好的啦而且別提起你就是沒有出現你剛剛講以前在擔心什麼面積 身高這個問題更重要的"},{"start":486.421,"end":506.549,"text":"適度還應該要再提高啦因為當初立法院通過的不要像那個行政院長說什麼我就不執行這樣不好會變成憲政一個危機來保證我另外問你一個問題那個米還是外銷的問題來講這個公糧跟米米的外銷這幾年表現得不好你像咖哩 咖哩在推動這個幸福的咖哩今年米的外銷很不錯啊"},{"start":507.785,"end":515.332,"text":"非常好啊今年到目前為止我給你看下一張有嗎今年114年1月到10號有嗎只有110年的一半"},{"start":521.232,"end":545.367,"text":"不可能 我覺得我們會後再給你資料我們今年的米特別好 今年的米特別好OK 今天米特別好啦 兩個啦 第一個就是在減少所以在外銷米方面在加強 這是第一個第二個 你看我們嘉義推動這個嘉義平和嘉義米這是嘉義市政府幫忙 黃米會他們幫忙啊 他們就推展到日本去啦"},{"start":546.387,"end":574.9,"text":"地方政府都可以做那你的资源更多嘛对不对我想我们全台湾有非常多的米销到日本我们都有协助包括跟农会协助包括跟地方政府合作我们都有在做对会 我们会一起来努力台湾的米非常好你想一份就能省米啊那多推一些到日本去外销再多一点让我们的农民收入可以增加好不好好 我们会来努力谢谢张其凯委员的咨询谢谢部长我们请张家俊委员咨询"}]}},{"id":"166224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b31fcff4215c8c61c446ee6dd7c9e9cb529da9d853841b9c5be845366a77bfd4645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:07:18 - 11:16:40","影片長度":"00:09:22","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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請陳部長請部長"},{"start":11.973,"end":35.951,"text":"我一樣先請教這個農退處境的部分現在的方案當然有1.5倍跟政府6農民4那我想請教因為現在到今年10月的話大概11萬人提交大概覆蓋率大概參與大概五成差不多五成那如果我們採行現在的政府的方案就是6比4這樣的方案的話預估它的覆蓋率會到多少"},{"start":36.711,"end":62.279,"text":"我們希望說覆蓋率能夠再提高到10到15%10到15%所以等於是會6成56成到7成左右6成到7成但這樣的覆蓋率部長滿意嗎我想應該這麼講就是現在覆蓋率比較低的是青年農民大概是20幾歲到35歲之間他覆蓋率只有24%我們希望把這個部分因為這個部分是我們未來農業的主力"},{"start":63.559,"end":82.201,"text":"希望它的覆蓋力能夠拉到我希望更多青龍進來回鄉來服務所以我們是比較精準的希望這個族群的目標能夠再拉高一點從24至少能夠拉到60%左右這樣的話才有意義那你能不能在設計上面有一些對他們有利的一些制度讓他們更願意加進來這個因為這才達到你要的政策"},{"start":83.462,"end":104.822,"text":"所以我才會說我們經過問卷他們不在乎最後領的是不是多領一點他們是在乎現在可不可以少繳一點所以我們才會去設計政府多出一點保障不便那如果照這樣的思考點的話那如果7.3能不能讓它更少而讓我們的覆蓋率提升更多甚至讓更多青農願意加入到這個農退儲金的這個制度"},{"start":107.384,"end":135.656,"text":"这个部分我们设计六四以后我们另外加了一个方向就是如果你有加入退出途径的话我们其他的相关的农业的这些补助能够加码那其实他们现在青龙很多都是做贷款买农机具买盖温室那它的具体的制度会是什么就是你要它具体的制度出来它才有可能产生对所以我们希望说是用六四的方式第一个让它扫脚让它先进来加保"},{"start":136.156,"end":161.638,"text":"我先問一下部長如果是73的話那大概覆蓋率會到多少你們的評估呢這個我們現在目前並沒有做很仔細的73的一個評估如果在73的話有可能再增加一成的這樣的一個我個人覺得其實現在目前如果如果是46的話他們現在每個月繳的部分其實並不多啦重點是他們希望說我們的補助能夠加碼"},{"start":163.294,"end":190.988,"text":"補助加碼的那個減少的那個他的經濟負擔會比但是現在那個細節出來了嘛就是執行的辦法出來嘛就是說我因為我因為參與到的農退雛心而能導致其他的補助能夠得到加碼我們現在初步大概是用5%來看那因為5%如果他蓋溫室有沒有他蓋所以會因為比如說因為你參與的這個制度我多增加你5%的補助類似這樣的方式然後這樣的話他的"},{"start":191.748,"end":218.135,"text":"節省的金額會比你們政策的評估因為增加了加入之後加了5%那會有更多有多少人應該會有更多所以我們最終的目標因為每一個保險不可能百分之百當然所以我們最期待的目標至少要八成對所以部長可不可以我們的目標上面是設定八成就是設定八成但你講這幾個都是政策目標但我也預估如果也許你用73的話也有可能可以達到八成的目標"},{"start":218.675,"end":246.854,"text":"那這樣兩種不同的路徑都是一個可行的路徑我也希望農業部在審慎的評估因為有時候這個最直接就是你直接定在這個裡面他很清楚的明白了我的負擔減低了然後我就有可能因為你現在預估可以到七成了嘛對 但如果說我們變七三可以到八成的話那等於更多的農民更多的青農願意加入這一套制度的話這也是我們要的目的嘛如果他對於他的將來退休的更有保障他願意加入的話我認為這個是最重要政策的目的"},{"start":247.134,"end":274.537,"text":"所以我們以八成為目標剛剛部長講這是一個路徑7比3也是一個路徑我們希望兩個一併來思考好不好好 我們會再去評估一下另外更細的政策評估讓他出來包括你的政策方向甚至於說這樣是不是能達到我們希望的八成的目標那如果我也個人認為如果有辦法達到八成的目標的話那應該這個政策其實就表示我們達到我們要的一個目的了好不好 我們希望讓更多青龍回到農村去這是一個很重要的事情不管是在高雄或很多的中南部"},{"start":275.473,"end":289.585,"text":"很多的人口 農業人口流失其實青農回去會扮演非常重要的角色而且他們的行銷能力他們的觀念 他們的栽種各方面都會帶動整個我們農村更走向更好的高價值化的一個效果是 這也是我們農業的目標好"},{"start":290.766,"end":312.799,"text":"再來我請教一下美濃其實是一個成功的例子他在過去他是菸業的但是因為後來我們加入WTO之後轉型後來我們在稻米我們在白玉蘿蔔在野蓮最近白玉蘿蔔在進行包括野蓮幾乎也成為一個很重要的產業我也去看過很多次這個部分他現在整個經濟的產值大幅提升剩下10倍之多所以我認為像這樣的經驗"},{"start":314.54,"end":341.168,"text":"我希望未來農業部能夠持續支持像幾個很重要的農會他重要的一些轉型成功的給予更大的支持那我也看到他經費其實反倒是在明年度是受到的減少這個部長能不能允諾未來對於像美農像很多的其實高雄好幾個農會都做得非常的好我希望對於做得好的有方法有能力的給予他更多的支持讓他們能夠轉型更成功讓他們能夠帶動農民更大的一個效益"},{"start":343.764,"end":367.91,"text":"農會一直是我們農業在施政的一個非常重要的夥伴那有的農會其實他蠻積極的部分像您剛才所提到的一些比較農會有比較積極的部分那針對這個積極的部分我們包括如果他是有稻穀有糧倉的部分我們會協助他糧倉的改善那需要冷電的部分我們也會有一些支持這個是我們講我們一貫的做法所以我們會去支持這樣子的有積極心的這些農會"},{"start":368.47,"end":383.489,"text":"我之前當過海航局長我很清楚知道每一個農漁會他們有不同的那有些很積極的就會達到很好效果那如果這個很積極的方向是正確的而政府又給予支持的話就會達到很大很大的很好效果這個就是我們現在在做的那我也希望農業部持續的協助農漁會"},{"start":385.251,"end":409.583,"text":"在於很積極很有想法的也很有執行力的給予他們更多的支持讓他們做一個指標那做得很好的時候他們帶動很大的效益讓旁邊的也都會看得到然後一起來加入進來那這樣子有一個很強的農會跟所有農民合作的時候其實就達到很好的效果我也希望農業部在這塊的支持能夠繼續給予我想農會的支持我們還是持續在做但是經費上要給予支持啦因為這是最現實的問題我了解 好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":410.743,"end":431.594,"text":"那再來是 一樣啦 農業人口老化所以我們現在努力在讓更多的新農加入其實為了補充更多的外籍的勞力增加更多自衛化 甚至於保障農民生活這個都跟今天有關那我也一樣還是希望像我去看了很多的一些像剛剛提到的野聯我覺得很多都是一些外籍的來協助啦來協助 因為那個工作"},{"start":431.954,"end":448.491,"text":"那我也希望這塊未來還是一樣思考怎麼樣讓產業能夠持續留在地方上面留在農村裡面那這樣子才有辦法讓青農也進來然後另外有更多的人力來協助讓我們很多的產業走向像我常看很多他們很多的一些產業不管是"},{"start":450.432,"end":471.59,"text":"這個野蓮 或者是甚至很多的水果的 甚至很多的蔬果他們做得很好 而且他們進到了很大的通路而且他們得到很高的規格到了全世界級的通路都進去了我們國家有很多世界級他進去了 而且他的標準完全符合的我認為這個都會帶動他們很穩定的收益跟很高的一個價值我希望農業部要持續的來協助"},{"start":472.791,"end":487.706,"text":"我們這個缺口跟這個季節性像你看在高雄的時候連90歲的阿嬤都還要上陣啦某一程度當然如果他有一些收益也不錯但是也凸顯出來我們在人力上確實很吃緊特別是一些季節性的我希望這些都能夠有彈性的思考"},{"start":488.346,"end":517.173,"text":"讓我們的農村能夠持續在產業上能夠更永續的發展我跟委員報告就是現在目前兩萬人我們也跟勞動部希望說他能夠再擴增人在第一個部分第二個部分就是我們也會針對一些行業放寬他的一個標準那這個部分我想現在大家對於移工的用的制度現在慢慢的熟悉了所以我們會逐步的放寬這個只要拿捏的好的話其實我認為對整個台灣的農村台灣的產業是有幫助然後我們有一些跨區的移工的調度這個現在已經在執行"},{"start":517.893,"end":533.713,"text":"最後一個問題我想請教現在我們禁用廚餘了那對於我們的黑豬會不會產生影響很多黑豬他本身對於廚餘這一塊是很依賴的這個有沒有辦法有一個好的我想我們已經成立了一個黑豬的一個輔導團隊那這個部分我想我們會立即的組這個團隊下將說明"},{"start":536.175,"end":558.321,"text":"讓黑豬因為過往都是用廚餘嘛他用飼料可能他不習慣還有一些做法那這個配方的調整我們後續我想我們會持續的來努力跟他剩下可能還是成本的問題啦我也希望能夠協助他們能夠做一個順利的一個對我知道這個就是配方的一個調整我們非常重要請部長再詮釋讓這件事情廚餘這件事情能夠圓滿的一個解決了解我想我們朝這個目標好謝謝部長謝謝賴瑞榮委員的質詢謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166223","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166223","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b39ed3f16cf19a608846ee6dd7c9e9cb52dc54cac4b90edbf5047be7cfaf59973b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:45:47 - 10:55:29","影片長度":"00:09:42","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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陽泉發言 邀請部長我們請部長 謝謝"},{"start":10.789,"end":36.946,"text":"來 部長好 部長我們今天針對於我們的農民退休儲金制度的設計那在整個保障農民晚年生活的時候呢這個農民退休儲金條例第七條的分擔比例是農民跟農業部辦一個負責各自那但是我們這幾年來的成效只有四成"},{"start":37.861,"end":44.255,"text":"台北賣到五十萬四十五萬而已對 那有好的制度為什麼人家不要用"},{"start":45.359,"end":67.665,"text":"也就是說制度裡面還有調整的空間制度裡面還有調整空間因此本席也提出修正條例第七條的部分也就是將前向農民及主管機關第三條第一線共同提增的金額因合併計算為提繳總額由主管機關另給10% 60%農民40%的比例來分擔你的看法呢"},{"start":73.232,"end":101.323,"text":"我跟委員報告就是基本上我們在送到行政院的版本也是用這樣的一個方式在保障不便的情況之下政府多出負擔一點就是百分之六十那謝謝你 也是同意那你們什麼時候送來我們都已經在審了這裡尋答了我已經報告就是我們已經有我親自已經跟院長報告了好幾次了然後現在版本也在行政院就在行政院的院會通過以後就可以送出來什麼時候要通過"},{"start":102.591,"end":120.485,"text":"因為我們已經在審了你這個會期會不會送進來送進來邊緣討論啊這個會期我的目標就是這個會期一定要送進來不是一定要送進來我們一定要讓他通過啊這個我知道所以我會再跟行政院反映是不是能夠儘速的安排到院會裡面去"},{"start":120.865,"end":136.076,"text":"你所謂的禁訴我們希望可以看到落實的行動因為儲金制度的意願跟它的普及率跟保障農民的權益這是非常的重要好不容易我們的精神目標都一樣"},{"start":136.936,"end":163.056,"text":"也就是把行政部門的加10% 60%農民的部分40%能夠讓我們農民真正來運用落實到政府的這個制度不要只有那個三四成現在四成多我們希望能夠普及率好不容易達成共識請你一定要趕快去追出來那接下來本席要請問也就是老農年金的問題老農年金本席也提案"},{"start":164.278,"end":173.176,"text":"本縣提案現在是多少錢啊 排戶的額度是多少8110那個排戶的部分所得是50萬然後那個自住房屋的話400萬然後財產的話是500萬"},{"start":176.626,"end":202.277,"text":"對啊 財產的部分500萬本席有提案希望能夠提高到800萬我們已經附委進來了 也在討論中是那這個部長因為十部我與每一個樣態不一樣 情境不一樣縣市合併之後高雄市 台南市 台中市 桃園市 新北深閣都有這個問題"},{"start":203.718,"end":225.274,"text":"我們合併了之後 它的土地自然增長我們的鄉親、長官、農民說土地出不來我真的沒有辦法生活但是是政府的公告限值、公告地價自動提升升格為直轄市 區域改變它的樣態我完全都沒有動"},{"start":226.835,"end":249.724,"text":"部長你有沒有思考到這個問題有我跟委員報告在這次我們送到行政院的版本裡面就考慮到這一點就是土地公告限制從100年開始都沒調到目前為止已經提高了64.78%所以我們在這一次的排富條款裡面我們也會針對就是所謂的土地公告限制做這些調整也會把我們的所得"},{"start":250.484,"end":269.095,"text":"也會把我們的財產的部分一併把它提高另外在額度上面來講現在是每四年調一次嘛對不對但是這四年中如果CPI調整的過漲幅過高的時候我們希望說有一個遊戲規則在這個四年之內如果達到某一個啟動的條件的話我們也會來做這些"},{"start":270.656,"end":293.027,"text":"額度的上限也超過的時候 我們就知道立即可以提升所以這個部分我們也送到行政院 也是要等到院會通過那剛剛好啊 你財產的部分 現在是500萬嘛我們是提升到通本的部分 地價這個從100年到現在 那大概是6成多 將近7成嘛所以本席提案的800萬 你應該要支持啊"},{"start":294.248,"end":320.087,"text":"我應該這麼講喔我們在考慮這個除了土地公庫限制的時候我特別跟行政院反應就是說其實農民辛苦了一輩子他買房子跟一般人買房子的概念是不一樣的而且這個房子不能變不會不容易去變現這是我自己在做的嘛我的真正農民生活所需他不是用這個去賺利差嘛所以你要實際上照顧人家而且整個因為這個"},{"start":323.81,"end":339.4,"text":"這個區域的範圍提升嘛尤其是縣市合併的直轄市它的落差會更大了解 這個我們都有考慮所以我們提的版本我相信就是如果願意通過的話應該會獲得委員的支持啦"},{"start":340.267,"end":362.077,"text":"好 所以我們一個結論也就老人年金的部分排富不管你的收入所得或者是你的財產的部分應該要依照這幾十一二十年來沒有調整比例給他調回來真正的尊重農民照顧農民因為農民這些財產他並不是去商業行為賺立場農業部應該要全力的"},{"start":366.799,"end":384.911,"text":"來照顧我們的農民我想部分藍綠白的我也跟院長報告 院長也蠻支持的好 既然支持我們就要繳成要落實來 接下來本席跟你討論非洲豬瘟的這個事情那你現在公布全面禁止飼養豬魚的養豬那給予最長時間是一年的轉型期那你是到明年的12月31號那你現在說你有一個方案來補助"},{"start":395.498,"end":411.18,"text":"也就是前半年一個月一頭租600塊那等於是最高是3600塊是不是這樣子來接受轉型是不是如此這比110年在轉型的時候2400塊又足足提高了1200塊"},{"start":412.472,"end":427.084,"text":"但是我們台灣有幾項比較特別的也就是我們的蝸豬肉是全世界最有名蝸豬肉就是吃烹煮蒸煮熟了之後吃烹煮蝸豬肉最好吃是不是這樣子"},{"start":427.85,"end":457.09,"text":"我跟委員報告黑豬分為大黑豬跟土黑豬那現在也有一些用飼料養的他的風味其實也不錯所以我們現在成立一個輔導團隊就是用我們敘事所的這些專門給黑豬的改良式的配方然後去提供他去做這些轉飼料的這些配方那這個部分他的成本也不會比一般的飼料還貴他比一般的飼料還便宜那我們會成立一個輔導團隊去協助我們的黑毛豬轉型"},{"start":457.99,"end":475.395,"text":"本席也就是說不管什麼樣的方式在整個轉型當中必須要透明化的讓養殖業者他非常的清楚而且是協助他而且還保護我們阿滴阿嬤的世界之冠的一個美運你們是朝這個目標"},{"start":476.335,"end":491.634,"text":"這個非常的重要所以你的專家學者怎麼去做我們也希望可以看到你的美麗成果出來那最後一個議題我把這個課題給你也就是無人機的部分大家現在知道我們的農業人力不足"},{"start":492.535,"end":513.732,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下呢 無人機必須AI系統派上用場可是我們碰到場域的問題 有很多也沒辦法 那這怎麼辦所以農業部是不是應該要去做一個跟政府橫向的一個聯繫怎麼樣讓農民可以更便捷 解決他人力不足的這個困境"},{"start":515.393,"end":540.582,"text":"我跟委員報告就是無人機的那個飛航的場域我們大概已經在今年的10月多已經確認了所有的資安場域的安全性然後包括一些禁飛區啦因為在機場那個禁飛區都已經劃定了然後在12月17號我們會對業者辦說明會然後大概在明年1月初的話我們就會開放我們的RTK讓他去使用"},{"start":541.882,"end":558.827,"text":"12月就這個月的17號會開放說明會我們的基本場域在哪邊因為農民非常的善良他們也希望能夠明確告訴他們他們的作為場域範圍讓他們能夠安心的來使用"},{"start":559.888,"end":582.81,"text":"12月17号会做说明会我们明年初的话我们就会全面开放这个RTK让他们来申请因为它的定位精准非常精准到几公分避免它的林田污染必须AI的体系来协助我们的农民他们人力缺少以及效能都能够提升好谢谢委员谢谢杨琼英委员"}]}},{"id":"166222","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166222","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3d07a61c6eeb3251ab5dd3a7969bdec96dc54cac4b90edbf5f61d29bd310f8b835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:36:53 - 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謝謝委員崔巡"},{"start":84.361,"end":106.133,"text":"那關於這個行政訴訟法在116條第一項跟第三項有規定就是我國的法制是以救濟不停止原處分的效力為原則以停止為例外情況那如果在個案上如果發生有重大損失或是避免緊急急迫危險有必要的情況或者是在處分執行難以回復重大損害或有急迫情形的話是例外賦予"},{"start":107.013,"end":128.662,"text":"當事人在行政訴訟法 依照行政訴訟法116條第三項或者是通話298條第二項來申請定暫時狀態處分那是讓法官能夠在個案中去橫評彼此的這個利益權衡來決定這個是不是有暫時權高比要好 謝謝林法官 我請教你這樣的一個修正案符不符合行政訴訟法的基本原則"},{"start":131.19,"end":152.224,"text":"那關於這個這個提案的話就是本院的意見是有提出說這個可能是跟現行的116條這個精神是不同的不過因為我們116條其實是有一個處罰法律令有規定的一個處疏條款所以我們還是尊重這個主管機關以及大院的一個立法形成自由"},{"start":152.864,"end":173.854,"text":"好如果按照相關的這種行政處分無效化如果這樣17條修正可行的話那其他相關的新的違建我們必須是急報其差如果他提起行政救濟或訴訟是否就要暫時緩差如果我們的目前的"},{"start":175.074,"end":199.145,"text":"廣告的食品或者是藥品它的成分有爭議那我們行政處問說你不能賣那他也提起行政訴訟或者是相關的訴願在還沒有確定之前他還可以繼續賣嗎或是詐騙廣告他認為他沒有詐騙但是我們認定他有詐騙的這樣的一個疑義的時候它是否還可以繼續的存在這就是我們今天要討論"},{"start":200.405,"end":226.404,"text":"相關的這種行政處分無效化必須嚴肅來面對的議題我請教一下陳主委來請林法官回座休息陳主委有關於這樣那個行政無效化在現行的法律行政執行率是處分的一個重要的一個過程那我請教一下這樣的一個行政執行率他對於維護廣電秩序的重要性是什麼來說明一下"},{"start":226.744,"end":255.371,"text":"是 謝謝張偉那我們就舉一個假設有一台電視台它是很喜歡播色心山跟暴力假設這個法通過之後假設我們不給它換照然後它一樣再借著提行的訴訟來繼續來營業的話其實會有兩個部分的影響第一個 在媒體業界而言其實它會產生媒體生態的負面牽引"},{"start":256.243,"end":280.724,"text":"那其他人就会效法那会造成整体这个媒体的内容向下沉沦那也会破坏这个守法或很健康媒体的一些竞争基础假设色心山暴力的电视台他虽然被NCC没有给他换照可是他借着诉讼继续营运的话那广告又持续投放这个是不健康的"},{"start":281.405,"end":302.965,"text":"那對社會對公共利益的部分的話大概也有分為三個指點第一點它會對社會風氣跟價值觀的影響它會弱化社會規範的感覺那認為說這種情況是OK嗎也會正常化偏差行為這不是我們要的也會侵蝕公共道德跟文化品質"},{"start":303.706,"end":322.342,"text":"因為我們都知道媒體有文化引導的作用那如果這樣的媒體沒有辦法透過建立機關給它適時的遏止那這種情況之後會越來越劣化那它對民主社會跟公共討論品質其實是有所損害的那如果媒體大量生產這種刺激性"},{"start":324.003,"end":349.594,"text":"不良的內容那因為這個法的通過其實會讓這個弱化公民對這深度議題的一些關注能力那更不要講說假設他是從一直一直在播出暴力的內容又不受這個這個沒辦法讓他離開這個平台的話他對治安對公共安全是有潛在的影響他是鼓勵犯罪模仿"},{"start":350.054,"end":366.902,"text":"那也會弱化大家對犯罪後果的一些認知這些都是對公共政策跟監管機關的形成一個壓力那主管機關會被這個法定變成說主管機關的可信度會讓民眾以為說這個已經沒有了"},{"start":369.744,"end":387.022,"text":"謝謝陳代理主委我想維護新聞自由是全民大家共同的期待與責任那維護新聞自由當然最重要的要靠自律跟他律自律就是新聞媒體必須要遵守相關的新聞規範來自我檢視"},{"start":389.284,"end":417.396,"text":"那他律呢媒體的他律就是要接受社會其他人輿論或是政府依照法令的一個監督那相關的這樣的一個自律跟他律最重要就是建立一種制度性的一種保障這就是林子儀大法官所提的制度性的新聞自由的保障就是透過這樣的一個制度性自律跟他律的這樣的一個精神"},{"start":418.876,"end":443.707,"text":"來維護這樣的一個廣電秩序讓廣電的新聞自由能夠公平自由多元的一個發展那現在相關的他律的部分不管是評鑑或是換照是一個重要的過程那相關的評鑑跟換照對於維護廣電秩序以及新聞自由有什麼重要性來說明一下"},{"start":444.71,"end":473.329,"text":"平均換照其實可以讓如果這個媒體經營有比較不好的地方可以讓他有一個糾正的機制讓他來及早來處理那如果這塊這個法通過的話那其實對應的這一部分必須要相應的來調整怎麼說呢如果這個特別的法通過是在結構上給他開了一條比較鬆綁的路在這個平衡上那行為管制這邊我個人認為說在"},{"start":475.03,"end":481.679,"text":"裁罰在罰則那邊其實要相應的做一些調整簡單來講就是要更嚴格"},{"start":484.088,"end":507.037,"text":"對於新聞自由這是憲法上保障的一種制度性的保障這樣的保障就是國家對媒體的管制並不是限制性的這種限制言論而是要維護新聞機構健全的運作這才是我們對於新聞自由一個重要的保障"},{"start":507.877,"end":523.588,"text":"讓它能夠有多元民主自由的一個市場的一個發聲這是我們NCC一個重要的責任那針對第17條的一個修正那NCC的說明必須讓你來做一個簡單的一個補充"},{"start":525.114,"end":550.44,"text":"好那謝謝張偉那陳主任剛剛剛所講到其實憲法對過往的大法官509對言論自由有表明說其實言論自由不是無限無限為所必為的必須要有一定的局數在廣電媒體這一塊大法官的364號解釋也已經說明這個主管就是政府機關其實可以對他做一些一定必要的一些處理這就是剛剛文報告所提到的"},{"start":550.78,"end":578.47,"text":"制度性的保障是要搭配一個它相對的權利與義務其實是並存的那它有的制度性的保障當然要付出相對性的一些自我節制的一些規範謝謝對於新聞自由我們憲法以及大法官的認知就是要建立制度性的一個保障保障廣電的新聞自由媒體他們能夠民主多元的一個健全的發展這是我們要共同努力的一個目標"},{"start":579.616,"end":582.312,"text":"謝謝張偉 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謝謝昭偉老師請陳主委來 陳代理主委請文昭主委早馬祖防衛指揮部有六十餘位官兵四官兵那麼跟這個詐團勾結盜買人頭人頭啊這個案子你知道嗎有稍微看到媒體報導"},{"start":34.289,"end":56.449,"text":"稍微看到 有沒有去了解我沒有請我們相關的同仁去跟相關機關來進行了解這個案情發生在軍中我們國軍部隊被匪諜侵入現在又被炸團侵入 這還得了你們現在打炸的成效怎麼樣 最近"},{"start":57.623,"end":77.568,"text":"在我們NCE負責的堵炸的這一塊我們會持續努力那比方說從兩年以前這個國際來化這邊當時是相對是比較大團利用的管道目前這一塊都比較已經被我們抑制住了那目前還有其他的利用IPPBS還有"},{"start":78.948,"end":107.535,"text":"那個發號碼不顯示這一塊那我們也在處理那我們已經提出這個請電信業者來配合明年五月底以前這個不顯示來電不顯示號碼的來電部分要發出語音警告就類似現在國際電話沒有現在像你NCC跟速發部跟警政署內政部警政署你們有沒有跟國軍的單位也做一個橫向的聯繫因為博客裡面也是很複雜的"},{"start":110.022,"end":133.517,"text":"如果達拉中心這邊應該會有統合相關部會那但是以國軍的弟兄如果他平時他放假怎麼樣他也是電信使用者的話這一塊其實是無分他是不是國軍與否那他申請都是要KYC部隊的管理是非常軍事管理非常嚴格的勒是不是是作戰單位他的軍系的管理是非常嚴格的怎麼會發生這樣的事情勒"},{"start":134.758,"end":163.317,"text":"我覺得你們回去以後跟國防部要密切的聯繫檢討好不好好 我們透過指揮中心來共同來處理另外這個NCC是不是一個獨立行使職權的機關是 個案上一定是剛才幾位委員也講了你們NCC被人家記為張CC你有沒有聽過這個名字有你什麼時候把它修正回來嘛NCC就是NCC嘛你個人當主委你有沒有覺得你是不是在獨立行使職權"},{"start":164.011,"end":189.731,"text":"你個人的感覺我覺得是是喔 是我覺得不是欸是嗎 你這90%應該是90%不是10%的是啦那10%是政策啦 政策是整個行政院團隊一體的欸你們怎麼可以跟著政策走這樣走勒個案是獨立機關61大法官61號的解釋已經解釋這樣子了個案在NCC是立法院三讀通過的東西"},{"start":192.699,"end":222.015,"text":"行政院每一樣都給他行職去憲法大法官去解釋 釋憲那不要立法院就好了 要立法院幹什麼你會覺得立法院是多餘的我覺得立法院可以撤銷啦中華民國的五權憲法 立法院可以不要了加個大法官就好了大法官就可以決定一切了大法官全部都是執政黨提名的人選那他決定就好了嘛 要立法院幹什麼還要打架吵架吵吵鬧鬧是不是"},{"start":223.174,"end":246.047,"text":"我相信大法官都會本於自身專業來獨立行使職權好 他講的他獨立行使職權就跟陳儒NCC講的獨立行使職權你們NCC委員我們讓你過關了過關以後怎麼樣你中間你會恢復嗎你搞不好把TVBS再給他砍掉"},{"start":247.278,"end":272.188,"text":"我前幾天質詢 現在什麼電視台啊每天罵綠的舞台就是罵 罵藍的就是罵藍的對不對TVBS我看罵綠的也還少他也怕啊 他罵得太過分的話TVBS你把他關台啦新聞台都有表意自由那全部 乾脆全部啊你NCC主導之下全部把他變成綠的算了是不是跟最近那個哪一國 韋國的選舉"},{"start":275.322,"end":296.142,"text":"有反對言論通通不會報導那你跟中國大陸有什麼兩樣 一樣嘛台灣跟中國大陸有什麼兩樣人家中國大陸經濟在起飛啊你去看看人家的建設怎麼樣 我們台灣建設的什麼我不是說自己在嘲笑自己啦 對不對去看看嘛 你不要媒體在那邊騙老百姓啊"},{"start":297.034,"end":324.521,"text":"台灣媒體目前是百花齊放是多元意見的呈現都在吵啊 都在罵啊 每天罵反正反對黨提出一個東西他就罵他提出一個東西就罵他把他罵到臭為止嘛 就這樣子啊這個政治喔外面有敵人 內部在又不團結怎麼團結得起來這樣呢 是不是正面來看也是監督的力量不過你媒體喔 媒體有很大的責任我跟你講"},{"start":325.202,"end":351.694,"text":"那我請問中天復裁 如果我們三讀通過你會給他復裁嗎 你不是依法行政我們絕對是依法行政 但是依法行政會給他復裁嗎如果法律相關的一些就計程序相關再提大法官那立法院不要算了嘛 要立法院幹什麼你會不會覺得立法院是不是多餘的我覺得我當立法院在這邊我即使提一個案子三讀通過有個屁用啊 三讀通過"},{"start":352.952,"end":365.756,"text":"以前刪除通過是很慎重的行政院要總辭 失敗要總辭的現在可以副議八次 九次 十次 就一百次嘛什麼五權憲法 狗屁啊好 我再問你2003年 台灣自由的浪潮 雲起我們弄了一個廣電三法 有沒有"},{"start":381.134,"end":401.879,"text":"黨政軍退出媒體,我請問黨政軍退出媒體了嗎?你門心是問黨政軍退出媒體了嗎?我們在執行這個法令,如果他不小心誤觸,他沒有做到的話就會受罰。只有你不知道啦,老百姓全部都知道。"},{"start":402.878,"end":425.868,"text":"啊 你問那個彰化以北的 全部都知道只有彰化以南的不知道他連TVBS有的飯店裡面都不放了這有這樣子 台灣怎麼很奇怪啊這個地方好 另外就是這個陸續修正以後 黨政運推動盤陸續修正以後那有的一個議員他持股 只有一股他就不能換照囉"},{"start":427.709,"end":452.732,"text":"對 所以就突然你們現在怎麼處理我們現在就是因為也是純粹依法行政所以該都是對方一定會提起行政訴訟那我們也會去應訴然後很多案子確實如委員提案所顯示的他不合理講的有的跟沒有的一樣嘛是不是規則對象不合理是不是要去打官司要去一審二審三審是不是又到大法官那裡去了是不是這樣子"},{"start":454.086,"end":479.988,"text":"大致是這樣我是沒有念書 有念書我也想去當大法官太好了大法官可以頂頂立法院113個委員好 現在有的只買了一張議員買了一張還有呢 政黨人員在公開的政黨人員在公開的市場他買下很少的股票"},{"start":482.352,"end":511.83,"text":"但是他沒有沒有做經營啊這個再換到以後也會有困難嗎所以這是不合理的地方所以確實就是黨軍軍條款需要做適度的一些修正調整你們有一些能夠修的把它修一修嘛好不好好沒問題我們其實內部幕僚作業都有持續在更新我們的版本與時俱進再做調整好啦我想NCC你對中天的事情你們要慎重我們將來如果提案修法的時候如果三讀通過"},{"start":513.322,"end":527.461,"text":"我希望看到你依法行政好不好你不要再拿到行政業界再來搞什麼復議啊什麼大法官解釋啊那我真的 台灣的司法立法沒有用了好不好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166220","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166220","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b34c0ef219abe18d18995c18a0804ac878dc54cac4b90edbf5450105506708a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:34:45 - 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我想先剛剛柯政委員有提到就是說他認為我們應該少買一些武器石膠的武器來多照顧學生我想照顧學生這一點是所有人都希望做到的事情但是守護國家的安全這兩點應該不是擇一應該是可以兼具"},{"start":28.946,"end":58.429,"text":"那上个礼拜呢其实我也参与了学生所举办的大学法的记者会那其实有一个数字呢我听起来非常的惊人就是说有现场的学生告诉我他出生的那一年到现在已经20年了大学法都没有修正过就是20年就是一个呱呱落地的婴儿长到可以变成个大学生的时间这是一个非常漫长的时间这20年整个社会的变化其实已经非常大了"},{"start":59.31,"end":65.656,"text":"我們從當年可能少子化沒有這麼嚴重的問題到現在已經是非常嚴峻所以造成我們所謂的退場的問題公私銷合併的問題"},{"start":68.826,"end":91.51,"text":"所以還有一個就是我們媒體的環境資訊的傳播其實都有非常大的改變可是我們的大學法卻依然沒有變那這個是一個我們必須一起來面對也希望督促我們在這個會期或是這一屆以內我們可以完成這個修法那我想其中我自己主要針對的就是三個重點其實也就是學生發言學生參與校務會議的一個重點這樣子"},{"start":97.403,"end":118.887,"text":"就是說我們現在在高校和大學合併的時候應該要有學生的聲音而且他應該要經過校務會議同意我們現在只要經過主管機關或是董事會同意就可以了可是學校合併其實會影響到的是老師的教學生還有學生的求學的問題"},{"start":122.668,"end":135.323,"text":"那這麼大的一個影響性可是我們卻完全不要去參考師生的意見我覺得這是一個非常不合理的地方所以我的主張就是不管是公私立大學只要學校要進行合併的時候都必須經過校務會議的同意"},{"start":140.852,"end":159.223,"text":"再來第二點就是我們校長遴選的公開透明我們現在校園遴選的時候長期存在所謂的資訊不公開外力介入甚至黑箱操作的問題所以我希望說在我們這次的修法裡面要去保證我們著稱要有代表性"},{"start":160.183,"end":179.445,"text":"而且學生的代表學校的代表要包含教師跟學生代表且學生代表不能夠少於兩名當然各校可以依照各自的需求將教職員生的同意權納入遴選過程那還是要再強調一句校長"},{"start":180.926,"end":207.352,"text":"不是少數人的校長校長是所有每一個學生的校長所以呢我們希望在這個遴選過程可以去反映全校多元的聲音那再來第三個呢就是我們要強化校務會議的一個監督功能校務會議應該是大學自治裡面最高的決策機構但是現在呢不管是有代表性不足監督力量薄弱的問題所以呢"},{"start":207.972,"end":223.034,"text":"如果要讓校務會議真正發揮它一個制衡的作用教室代表中沒有兼任行政主管的人必須在多數避免讓校務會議變成只是校長的橡皮圖章"},{"start":224.83,"end":240.673,"text":"那學生呢的代表我這邊的想法其實是五分之一那成如剛剛這個柯政務委員講的這一點其實我是蠻同意的的確是現在學生參與公共事務的這個動力呢相對過去可能是稍微更低的"},{"start":241.374,"end":266.84,"text":"那如果要找到如果要定到三分之一會不會有這個到時候沒有辦法找到足夠的人數所以我這邊基本上是提五分之一但是我想這可以讓大家一起來討論因為其實也有學生跟我反映我們過去參與這些學校事務的時候他的意見其實根本不會被踩那慢慢慢慢的大家就不想去參與這個公共事務不想參與學校事務所以我想這個可能是有一個賠利還有校務會議"},{"start":269,"end":296.096,"text":"这些公共的会议到底会不会采纳学生如果我们可以去改善这一点的话也许三分之一也不是不可行那最后呢我还有新增这个监督财务校务及编定议程的委员会确保我们的运作是公开透明而且议案也是安排公平所以我想最重要让大学运作监督就不能够只是一个形式而是要建立真正有力量的一个制度"},{"start":296.716,"end":317.538,"text":"所以我想最後還是要去呼籲我們所有的教文委員會的委員都一起來公開支持這一個法案的修法讓我們的教育部可以更積極的去督促一起去整合大家不同的意見提出一個好的版本來去回應這個時代的需求跟學生的需要"},{"start":318.579,"end":332.612,"text":"那我想最後還是要感謝我們的學生就是在這麼多年以來還是不放棄一直非常的努力在推動相關的修法這樣子的精神我覺得非常的欽佩但我也希望在這一屆我們可以走到終點 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166219","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166219","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3d3b4c8abd195a8f046ee6dd7c9e9cb52dc54cac4b90edbf5450105506708a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:32:28 - 10:40:15","影片長度":"00:07:47","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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風涼到台"},{"start":353.272,"end":371.063,"text":"現在地價上漲 公告的限值也在上漲你不趕快改 現在管理局長的候選人一定會被頭一條迷你蚱蜢把你踢出來我跟委員報告你覺得要改嗎 我記得楊清雄我們幾個選舉委員會的人一直反映這個問題我跟委員報告你都要等到選舉年要踢出來 沒有提早動作"},{"start":381.81,"end":403.247,"text":"動機不純正 心機不正你買 你才大方一點我告訴你 你這個問題十幾天什麼 乖乖你就要照顧我告訴你 老農經貸大概三個部分 額度的部分一個是所得的部分 一個是財產的部分的排付那這個排付我們都已經設計好了 我們從"},{"start":404.168,"end":422.239,"text":"去年十月多一直到今年的三四月的時候都跟院長報告八月的時候最後一次報告已經送到縣政院去的您也趕快提出來 我們要提出來不然功勞都是那些選舉人 你看都在這個時候出來 把他踢出來"},{"start":424.438,"end":453.044,"text":"法案早一點提出來啦要到明年選舉再提出來啦不會啦什麼不會 就已經到了還不會你要不要改那個排污條款什麼時候提出來我們有做修正然後我們也把版本送到行政院去了我很尊重你耶你講話都很福氣耶真的 我已經送到行政院去啦那要趕快拿出來不然我們走到台下所有人都為了這樣就算了我會再跟行政院報告看看可不可以儘快"},{"start":454.745,"end":462.056,"text":"盡快的時候 這些人會跳下來把你農業部包圍起來吧盡早準備盡快送出來 減輕他們的負擔 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝陳昌明委員質詢 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10:34:26","影片長度":"00:08:02","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"「重塑大學自治與校園民主—《大學法》修法與高教治理改革之檢討及策進」公聽會（事由：立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-08","start_time":"2025-12-08T10:26:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-08T10:34:26+08:00","duration":482,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":55.127843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.16159375,"end":424.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.90971875,"end":443.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.23596875000004,"end":445.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.59846875000005,"end":481.47471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":26.042,"text":"我想真的教育部要加把劲教育部已经历经了20年了我们大家我今天非常谢谢刘淑冰委员特别排的这样子的一个一个公听会但是我还是要说我们的朱次长已经从高教师的次长高教师的司长现在已经变成次长了你看我们还在讨论大学法那原因还是很简单要广大各位的意见那意见已经讲了这么久了那到底教育部的版本在哪里"},{"start":26.502,"end":54.884,"text":"但是呢很多时候呢每次都告诉我们要非常的公开态度要非常的开放但是态度的开放里面其实我某种程度是要掩饰教育部他不表态的这样的一个真实的一个原因那为什么不表态某一些在大学服务过我想多少可以因为这些东西包山包海有太多的细节学校的立场教师的立场还有学生的立场都各自不一样我想这也是一个事实没有错吧所以其实也很难在这个过程当中"},{"start":55.504,"end":69.612,"text":"但是如果不取得共識我想再過幾年也還是停留在公聽會的階段我們想就誠如我剛說的我剛聽了一下葛珠君委員就是針對於我們教師的權益特別在升等的權益裡面可不可以更多樣當然從頭到尾"},{"start":71.693,"end":92.601,"text":"还有很多人有提到包括我们刚刚同学的台师大的同学也特别已经细微到有关于这个学生费再怎么样收都是所以你看可以很大很小那我们只能捡其中的几个东西来去来看待当然我觉得维持大学自主的这个核心精神这绝对是要的维持大学的自治然后呢学生的自治"},{"start":93.061,"end":122.157,"text":"这是但这里面就牵涉到一个相当微妙的一个问题就像刚刚我们景文的老师也提到我也同意学生比例的代表这是一个正确的方向但比例是一个数字有些时候学生的一个所谓的值的部分也会是我举例来说当我们制定了从以前大学法里面有关学生参与校务所有的会议当中有人提出三分之一有人提出四分之一有些人提出五分之一这个数字都有这是一个比例"},{"start":122.697,"end":146.703,"text":"但是呢有些时候呢像我过去服务的淡江大学我服务到26年就发现其实差距非常的大早期的学生非常愿意所以说呢我们会竞争非常的激烈交到最后10年的时候呢我光是要开一个校务会议学生事务会议每一个学院要导出代表因为我们有个比例在那边我找不到人因为学生就开始没有"},{"start":146.943,"end":149.004,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":164.688,"end":191.528,"text":"所以比例的方向是正确但是要设定是哪样的比例我觉得这个我们都是一个考虑讨论的一个空间所以这不是学校规模大跟小比例就比例在那个地方我觉得比如说要思考的就是当你一个学校没有所谓的社会科学系的时候其实会让学校是非常地困扰因为大部分的学生真的对于这样的一个学生的事物里面他们的兴趣点没有那么大的时候其实当你比例定到三分之一的时候"},{"start":192.108,"end":212.62,"text":"会有留会的问题这是我们担任学务长七年当中所提到的所以说呢我们在第33条有关学生自治的层面要扩大学生会的专章完成学生会的运作财务跟这边的空间我也是比较持正向的方法来看因为你可以确保学生会的独立性保障学生的自治权益"},{"start":213.3,"end":241.728,"text":"但是呢还是一句话就刚刚我们的会长所提到的他们也很细微希望由学校这也是范园委员的主张希望细微由学校来做代收那目前来说这个代收又是一个问题当你把这个学生会的会费如果不是跟这个学费单印在跟学院堂同一张纸上而是额外由另外一张纸的时候然后你又没有强制即使学校帮你代收其实你的比例交的比例也是非常的低的你有没有发现"},{"start":242.288,"end":270.854,"text":"所以说呢你看政大25我的母校25到35大概只有400人教4000人教台北大学大概20到30所以除非是你把印在对不对同学是不是印在那上面但是你在印在这是你们要的但是很难做得到但是呢有些时候所以说我们的学生会就要怎么办偶尔是找个什么陈其正来唱个歌找谁来唱个歌透过这样子的学生办活动然后我们缴个多少钱来当做你们学生会的这样子会费对不对"},{"start":271.394,"end":278.536,"text":"很辛苦但是呢這就是我們說出來你看學務長不是當假的因為他們都要跟我反映過這個問題我當學務長很久他已經過了8年了怎麼還在討論這個問題所以說你把他即使把他分隔學校應該幫你們代收但是你把你這個帳單分開來上的話你這張帳單額外要去繳其實問題還是存在所以這個問題該怎麼辦所以你們只能提供到由學校來代收但是學校在代收的過程當中怎麼樣的收法也是決定你們沒辦法收到錢"},{"start":300.162,"end":323.991,"text":"这是你们细微上你们要去讨论好不好这太细微这整个大学法来说还有关于这个少子化所带来的一个冲击要怎么样保障这些权益所以我所提出来第七条修正的草案当中未来直辖县市的大学或私立何必要经过校务会议同意然后也要重视教师员的权益这点我想大家所要求就是一个退场的过程真的是"},{"start":324.491,"end":340.528,"text":"目前為止是勸勸公開透明所以問題學生的安置老師的勞動保障土地的資產私校的財務審查跟歸屬這些過去都是在一個比較封閉的儀式除非有人檢舉否則還有我們立法院質詢否則都不會主動告知"},{"start":341.008,"end":367.137,"text":"所以认为有关于重要的一个决定必须公开可以审查可以被监督那如果大学都是由行政来垄断的话资讯不透明师生无法参与我觉得这个部分事实是大自治精神但是要什么样的人参与多少人参与教职员占的比例多少那也学生他们刚刚讲说学生如果一个人去的话他在这个学术权威之下学生不敢发言那是否大学一位研究所一位"},{"start":367.577,"end":377.244,"text":"那是不是可以稍微減緩這樣子的一個趨勢都可以討論但是公開這點是絕對是無庸置疑的最後我只提出一個第35條我覺得這個東西應該好好來討論納入家庭所得淨額適用稅率12%以內的免學費"},{"start":383.948,"end":410.733,"text":"我們能夠打破貧窮世襲教育M型化的現況我覺得這才是一個落實社會正義我覺得不管是公私利真的保障弱勢學生之前清貧學生很多大二生為了辦理休學無力繳納一萬八你看造成很多輕生的悲劇我們不希望再發生所以我們要花很多錢與其花很多錢去買那個持交不交的這些所謂的一些的武器我覺得要多一點經費來照顧經濟弱勢"},{"start":412.853,"end":432.698,"text":"所以我个人为好好的讨论税率12%以内的免学费这点是很重要的总而言之这个问题还会继续在讨论下去太多了但是呢几个基本的原则学生自治参与扫指化所面临的冲击的冲击还要保障弱势的学生我想这是我对大学法修法的一个看法"},{"start":433.058,"end":434.499,"text":"然后我们希望在实务"},{"start":463.138,"end":481.084,"text":"所以说呢各位不要让今天在场的学生你们过了我在社会上看到你们搞不好变成我同事的时候还在修大学法就由你们来修了好不好重点一个我们一致希望教育部拿出态度拿出我们的愿板这才有办法让我们大学法继续往前修最大的一个动能谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"166217","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166217","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b38518abcb181fbb7946ee6dd7c9e9cb52dc54cac4b90edbf53c866e876d24eab55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:24:45 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謝謝主席不好意思 我腰閃到不好意思 你不回去 好好好部長 我想請問一下這個農民退休儲金條例其實我上會期就已經有你說這會期要送這個會期會送進來啊對啊 什麼時候"},{"start":30.043,"end":50.236,"text":"我跟委員報告 其實我們跟行政院都已經報告完了現在就等到安排院會以後就可以送進來了大概什麼時候 你總要跟我們我們盡可能的跟行政院溝通剛才趙委有講說看看這個禮拜可不可以進去我們會盡最大的努力"},{"start":51.312,"end":74.845,"text":"現在覆蓋率只有50那你提出你的版本你規劃說未來覆蓋率可以到達多少我們如果從現在參與的年齡層來講輕農的部分就是剛進到農業職場大概5年到10年這段人他的覆蓋率最低的才20幾而已所以我們希望說減輕他的負擔這樣的話他們就有機會來繳這個錢"},{"start":77.908,"end":81.918,"text":"那相對的提高比例是1.5嗎我們保證不變就是委員您提的是正午"},{"start":87.051,"end":110.37,"text":"提拨的多一点农民继续缴原来的可是我们问了农民就是说他现在的钱就缴不出来了他不在乎最后的保障是提高的因为最后的保障其实是30年后特别是20几年后他们是希望现在能够少缴一点所以我们根据这个部分保障不变所以你们是希望就是说让农民少缴一点对"},{"start":111.03,"end":121.385,"text":"然後政府多繳一點所以你們用比例對 本來是10 10嘛就是20%裡面然後政府繳8%政府繳12%然後農民繳8%這樣的話繳的比較少 他們就願意"},{"start":125.345,"end":146.87,"text":"所以是你們用比例的問題就對了對用這樣的方式然後那能夠提高的覆蓋率是多少我們希望至少能夠再提高個10%以上就是60%剛才包括委員之前也一直在提醒的就是說如果農民退休儲金加了農民退休儲金我的其他的政策補助是可以加碼"},{"start":148.19,"end":170.572,"text":"那这样的话更有诱因啊特别是他们需要一些代管或者是他们需要一些农机具的补助如果你有农民退休雏金的话我可能提高了3% 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要怎麼樣去化嘛那現在這個問題到底有沒有解決在行政院會你們有沒有解決"},{"start":293.778,"end":322.038,"text":"環境部已經規劃完整的一個去化方式然後在明年年底的時候因為它有一部分會進到焚化爐那焚化爐如果參雜廚餘大概10%的話對於焚化爐是沒有影響的所以他們用這種方式來處理還有包括能源化還有飼料化的部分所以廚餘就是一個廢棄物當你廢棄物變成能源化的話那相關的像黑水盟那如果變成一個飼料的話那就是飼料化"},{"start":322.698,"end":340.581,"text":"對那這個部分如果都處理完還不夠的話就進到焚化爐去焚燒他們大概有這樣的一個規劃好還有就是還有就是剛才大家提到的啦就是你廚餘的這個就是廚餘養豬這個你要全面禁止嘛那"},{"start":341.281,"end":356.709,"text":"對於飼料的補貼我剛才看到了你那個飼料補貼為什麼從就是說現在開始接受飼料補貼的轉變成飼料的是3600那明年的才1800嘛對不對我看到你美頭是這樣子你這樣子有辦法讓他們轉成飼料嗎"},{"start":361.731,"end":377.68,"text":"我們設計這樣就是希望他們提早來轉你想要他快點轉嗎快點轉的時候我們的輔導團隊特別是黑毛豬的輔導團隊我們會來協助這邊然後我們也試算了一些用我們的黑毛豬的配方"},{"start":378.74,"end":399.76,"text":"的部分其實它的成本會高一點但是後面我們會推動黑毛豬的這些品牌讓它消費市場的價格價值也高一點的話大概能夠平衡他們的一個收入我們豬肉出口咧我們豬肉現在出口怎樣豬肉的出口目前就是會等到我們加工的部分是可以啦"},{"start":400.701,"end":415.374,"text":"非洲豬胃如果再一次的那個加熱的豬肉產品是可以出口的但是生鮮的話現在是不行要經過再去跟那個WHO去申請為非裔區以後才可以"},{"start":415.782,"end":443.809,"text":"就是再等三個月嘛是不是對至少三個月啦好那我們彰化的那個什麼西湖的冷鏈啊那個後面畜牧師師長那時候有去啊對我們冷鏈那個是不是能夠協助我們彰化的因為其實你要做冷鏈就是希望說肉品的加工或者是外銷或者是販賣能夠有就是有提高它的利用性我跟維銘報告就是肉品市場附設的這個加工廠"},{"start":444.449,"end":457.296,"text":"過去都是農業部來協助的我想我們後續也會再來協助對啊我們是不是能夠來協助提高這些肉品的這個部分我想我們銷售市場好不好用冷鏈的部分我們會來支持的好不好好好好謝謝謝謝蕭一鋒委員"}]}},{"id":"166216","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166216","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3dbc41822d9943dc9b5dd3a7969bdec96dc54cac4b90edbf564a5fa53d23552a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"10:13:55 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釋憲通過之後才來處理才來回徵過去的這個薪水那剛剛代理主委已經講了"},{"start":254.787,"end":268.127,"text":"你不會採取釋憲的方式嘛只要立法院三讀通過的法案你就應該依法處理就依法處理因為你們是獨立自主的機關不受任何上面長官的壓力 對吧"},{"start":268.992,"end":289.513,"text":"根本包括一般的情况那当然是依法处理那依法行政依法处理但是如果法律上目前的法规架构如果赋予相关单位他有法令相关的一些救济程序我相信他践行这个程序也是依法行政大概是我的看法是这样子"},{"start":289.713,"end":312.925,"text":"戴主委 是你兩分鐘前跟兩分鐘後的態度完全不一樣沒有 是說一般情況之下我們當然會依法行政那我們是二級機關二級獨立機關正常情況之下就是因為你是獨立機關所以說本席才今天特別來質詢你也並且讓你好好的說明有沒有那個風骨有沒有那個專業有沒有那個獨立性而不是看上面辦事嘛"},{"start":313.546,"end":323.307,"text":"其實我覺得最遺憾的地方就是過去到現在為什麼NCD讓人家沒有辦法接受或是說NCD讓國人普遍信賴不夠就是因為每一次都覺得是說你們就有上面的壓力啊"},{"start":324.49,"end":352.417,"text":"就如同剛剛本席其實剛剛林國成委員林國成召委在質詢的時候他一開始開宗明義問說那現在委員徵詢的狀況怎麼樣你也不清楚因為權責不在是權責不在你也因此像這樣子的一個委員的一個部分我們會在總質詢的時候詢問行政院長但是本席要求你的是當你要依法行政的時候就應該依法行政你過去你剛剛講的那部分就是"},{"start":353.197,"end":376.397,"text":"行政 獨立行政機關的一個態度問題對 我剛剛跟趙偉報告就是說如果這個法律 這個衛管法修正通過那相關假設他最終定案下來我們當然是依法執行這個法律好 依法執行 來那個代理主委 那請教一下最近我們本期也看到另外一個新聞我不知道您應該也有看到前總統陳水扁"},{"start":377.455,"end":393.389,"text":"那也是現在在服刑的受刑人雖然他現在保外就醫但是他是在服刑當中還有兩個案件還沒有審理但居然我們看到有一個獨家新聞是他明年要在新聞台裡面主持節目"},{"start":394.831,"end":423.605,"text":"這個有看到就報導但是跟委員報告來兩個部分第一這個新聞台他可以有主持政論節目嗎當初在設定的時候這個新聞台有允許或說他自己有承諾說他不主持他沒有要開設政論節目現況他是不能開政論節目好所以他沒有辦法開政論節目那第二受刑人能夠上新聞台他的當初有所謂的四部條款現在當然已經蕩然無存了"},{"start":424.286,"end":440.356,"text":"在我們偉大民進黨政府主政之下我們司法好像是就是可以雙重標準到無緣佛界的地步讓獸行人啪啪走除了專訪以外他甚至他可以直接主持節目網路上的他主持節目我不知道戴主委有沒有看過"},{"start":441.846,"end":466.04,"text":"有稍微看過你也看過所以我們的高官都知道說我們受刑人有在主持節目結果就只有我們的中間就只有我們的法務部就只有我們的執法單位完全把眼睛遮起來好那我現在具體請教如果說明年新聞台他直接邀請這個受刑人上他的頻道來主持節目NCC要怎麼處理"},{"start":466.448,"end":486.995,"text":"好 兩個部分回答 第一個部分那報導所指涉的那個電視台目前他官網也沒有披露什麼相關這個消息那我們會持續來關注來注意這個處理那剛剛 照有提到前半部部分那是法務部的權責我們這邊就予以尊重那個前半部"},{"start":487.56,"end":511.912,"text":"就是說他是受刑人身份然後啪啪走這一塊然後這一塊媒體管理不是NCC的責任嗎我說兩部分嘛媒體管理這一塊相關的電視台他目前是不能開政論節目不能開政論節目那他能不能請受刑人如果說他今天他把它變成是談話性節目他故意拐一個橋門不是政論節目我只有請一個來賓一對一對談"},{"start":514.372,"end":539.421,"text":"他能不能主持這個如果他主持的不是政論性節目那當然就他能主持嗎受刑人可以在我們現在新聞台裡面然後直接上新聞台來主持節目然後我們NCC完全完全放任我們回答兩個部分是在那個電視台目前是不能開沒有政論節目嘛對你已經開中民意講了這本來也是當初那個新聞台設定的一個要旨嘛好"},{"start":539.881,"end":554.075,"text":"那沒有政論節目但我現在是說他有沒有開巧門 有啊我們也看到他現在不是政論節目但他就找一個來賓一對一對談啊讓那個來賓 那個來賓也是政治人物也是政論節目的常客但是他就讓他一對一對談啊"},{"start":556.062,"end":577.223,"text":"那這樣子算什麼 算談話性節目只是談話內容是正論可以這樣子取巧嗎我們會在程序上來找相關專家學者來處理還要找專家學者來處理 來因為目前我們沒有傳播委員主委 知不知道這個新聞台它現在有這樣子的一個取巧知道"},{"start":579.349,"end":601.685,"text":"那這個案子我們的NCC偉大的獨立機關NCC知道人家在這邊做這個取巧但是不講不罰沒有但是我們已經在處理了來做了什麼處理我們發函請他陳述一件然後我們內部也有人家開這個節目開多久了那你們現在發函蝸牛在爬他先前的大選進來講我們已經已該處罰警告了"},{"start":605.044,"end":632.4,"text":"處罰警告先前的那這是有開罰嗎警告就是一種處罰警告就是一種處罰那在評鑑你敢講本席不太敢聽說實在話對於不同的標準所以說我們上一段質詢本席才在講你的制度性保障新聞自由你可以對一家電視台直接到時候用關台的方式"},{"start":633.815,"end":645.091,"text":"讓他可以直接死無葬身之地關起他的喉嚨關起他的嘴巴讓他不能再發聲現在對另外一家新聞台他明明就已經違反了當初他設定時候"},{"start":646.67,"end":671.175,"text":"的條件 不能政論節目結果我們NCC知道他沒有開政論節目他開一個談話性節目在討論政論我沒有在處理 找來賓來聊那個來賓就是政論節目的常客然後結果我們NCC知道但是我們不處理或是我們到最後講說警告就是一種處理不是 現在的我們不是不處理 已經在處理當中那如果最後認定上說要罰我們都會依法行政來該罰就罰"},{"start":674.488,"end":700.749,"text":"主委是本席最後自己想請教如果最後他的受刑人真的在這個新聞台裡面開節目NCC怎麼做就是我們會提就是用內部的程序來認定說他這樣子有沒有構成說他就是那個真正性節目如果是的話我們當然會他會來罰所以我們NCC可以那麼消極那他就是沒有我已經在處理了現在他已經是他開獨家耶"},{"start":703.511,"end":725.603,"text":"這是對公權力的挑戰吧我今天不管藍綠黨派如果說今天有任何一個受刑人第一他可以在中華民國法令保障之下保外就醫然後啪啪走手也不抖了說話邏輯思考非常的完整然後結果他要關十年二十年就完全不用審完全不用看他今天不是被特赦"},{"start":726.363,"end":741.942,"text":"跟周圍報告結果他今天趴趴走之後然後就直接預告還發獨家我覺得今天我們說不定這樣子持續完畢之後還幫他衝點閱率還幫他抽收視率然後結果如果說他發獨家然後之後真的開了節目結果我們NCC還在後面"},{"start":743.707,"end":763.204,"text":"撥接 卡然後說我們再來收集資料這個是未來式他的官網沒有披露變成事實之後我們一定會依法來處理目前他是披露是未來式但是該家公司他的官網其實也沒有好 我只是想請教一下這樣是不是有違法的行為"},{"start":764.125,"end":788.141,"text":"因為目前是這是違法行為就是我依照剛剛好如果你這樣講好他這樣子的一個獨家新聞是不是違法的行為如果他是真正性節目的話就是就是違反他當初的我們對他的一些拘束就要開罰所以說代理主委已經講了這是一個違法行為如果我們是最後認定是我是說現在新聞嘛你有看到新聞報導出來吧"},{"start":790.171,"end":819.331,"text":"新聞有報導但是我們去了解該家公司其實他的官網其實還沒有披露任何東西我們會持續關注因為這個是明年還沒發生事實那任何行為必須要有事實基礎主委本席現在只確認就是說他是違法行為所以說已經確認這是違法行為那如果說他真的做了一個違法行為的時候該依法處置就要依法處置不要再讓國人認為是說NCC張CC看到不同顏色就轉彎可以嗎"},{"start":819.952,"end":821.236,"text":"可以 如果他開的是這個節目我們就會處理好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166215","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166215","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b35508adb7766dd574b5dd3a7969bdec96dc54cac4b90edbf564a5fa53d23552a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"10:02:19 - 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我們請代理主委來 陳代理主委請委員長主委好所以剛針對那個方委員問的我再補充問一下Meta GoogleTikTok 他們在台灣有沒有設法律代表"},{"start":27.085,"end":53.465,"text":"TikTok之外其他我確定有TikTok應該是有來在接洽處理TikTok也有TikTok目前未來也是美國公司嘛那小紅書有沒有設法律代表我的了解部分是沒有是的差別在這裡你自己當主委你自己要去搞清楚有我剛剛有跟黃委員報告那比如說政府有公文"},{"start":55.141,"end":83.355,"text":"就是有狀況給Meta Google TikTok他們公文有回應小紅書政府給他公文有沒有回應應該是已讀不回吧是的 已讀不回那詐騙受理案件Meta Google TikTok都有設窗口小紅書有沒有設窗口應該沒有好 那答案不是很清楚了吧"},{"start":85.229,"end":114.427,"text":"我希望說你們自己回答要具體就是說到底為什麼他會跟Meta會跟Google會跟TikTok不一樣至少他在台灣有法律代表我們要聯繫有窗口政府要聯繫有回應小紅樹是這三個通通沒有那為什麼他會比較特別因為他自己做法就很特別跟其他的這些都不一樣啊"},{"start":116.56,"end":140.817,"text":"所以答案就很清楚我希望說主委你自己也要搞得很清楚回答要很清楚很具體所以這個其實也很不好管我們知道NCC很辛苦那個廣播電台是廣播電視法管對不對是那有線電視有線電視法那MOD"},{"start":145.902,"end":161.236,"text":"目前是用過往管理規則來管那包括衛星廣播嘛對不對對衛廣法目前很多的衛星頻道是衛廣法來所以這個都很具體嘛好那我再請教一下那是個平面媒體"},{"start":162.554,"end":190.822,"text":"平面媒體目前應該是文化部為主那文化部當然它管理的力道大概跟過往又稍微有不一樣因為那個出版法或者那個大概也已經廢除就是說它內容內容誰管內容紙媒嗎紙媒部分大部分而言還是文化部文化部那網路媒體呢"},{"start":192.219,"end":218.133,"text":"網路媒體現在的標準答案說法應該是看它的性質由各相關機關來管相關機關對 就假設它內容涉及到衛福部的相關這個耳哨 保護那就是由衛福部衛福部相關的作用法其實都已經訂了所以我剛剛跟報告說所以它內容有問題都是相關機關事業目的事業主管機關自己要管理"},{"start":218.693,"end":243.59,"text":"分散是立法然後分散是分到各相關部會來統則處理所以最後呢其實有爭議大部分都是去法院處理啦對不對有些是這樣子沒錯你網路媒體有登記公司那基本上好像是歸經濟部管那經濟部管是你這個公司有沒有問題對你公司運作的內容經濟部也沒管那麼多嘛對不對"},{"start":244.358,"end":269.952,"text":"對 他負責登記而已大部分 對不對所以呢這個都是屬於傳播嘛我們NCC的全名叫什麼通訊傳播委員會傳播嘛 對不對但是很多網路上的平台不見得是傳播有時它是UGC就是使用者生成的內容那一塊甚至是廣告那這邊就比較不是NCC的範疇"},{"start":271.591,"end":295.931,"text":"對啦我現在就是告訴你嘛平面媒體它有傳播的功能嘛對不對對網路媒體當然你說的各自它內部自己的製作自己的內容啦等等的這個都個人的事情嘛但是現在網路媒體的傳播效能大不大大大對不對所以以邏輯來講有關係到傳播的"},{"start":299.212,"end":318.372,"text":"我們叫做通訊傳播委員會嘛對不對但是這一塊因為行政院已經立定是分工說變成行為管制如果他的雖然是自媒體雖然是UGC他的內容涉及到侵權涉及到智慧財產侵權其實就有相關對應的比方說智慧局會沒關係那我就針對傳播的部分嘛"},{"start":319.366,"end":331.34,"text":"因為他很複雜所以會牽涉到很多不同的單位這個我們都可以理解但是我們從邏輯來做思考就是說他有關於傳播的部分那應該是誰來管"},{"start":332.931,"end":356.448,"text":"NCC負責在源頭端 主要是該內那一塊我們目前網傳辦其實有處理這一塊我們希望能夠保障言論自由 維護使用者權益所以我們也是有做一些相關軟法目前雖然沒有委員會議我們做一些軟法的一些訂定比方說我們過往剛剛很多部會都在分散立法我們就訂定一個立法的指引給相關部會參考"},{"start":357.509,"end":385.84,"text":"那另外民眾最多詬病是說很多是他跟平台間的一些互動申訴的部分我們也訂定這個申訴的指引那當然網際網路上是主要是各方在互相互動的所以是多方利害關係人這部分要怎麼處理怎麼來互動我們也訂定利害關係人的指引這些都是我們目前在處理的所以但是他表現在行為端他違法或怎麼樣其實都是回歸各相關目的世界對啦 這違法通通到法院嘛"},{"start":387.134,"end":409.532,"text":"不知道要跟民國幾年了有些是行政法行政機關都可以處理好那我現在就說我們從我們還是處理事情要有邏輯然後要有具體這樣子才會有效所以我們來做一個簡單的邏輯思考那是不是說我們看到上個月"},{"start":411.713,"end":430.235,"text":"自律其實網路新聞其實他們也有成立自律聯盟這個算是蠻好的我們應該給他們掌聲那他們其實自己都願意自律去提高新聞品質跟公信力但是只有自律恐怕有一些人他就不自律嘛"},{"start":432.328,"end":456.148,"text":"對 所以我們是三律共管 自律他律法律所以我覺得法律還是有這個必要對 那比方說前一陣子某些個案在公共場所某些影片如果在網路上來發散它其實一樣是涉及到刑法的一些部分處理OK 只有 所以我就說老師到法院太慢了可以行政處理可以悠閒速度比較快"},{"start":457.653,"end":471.102,"text":"所以我們有廣播電視法有線廣播電視法跟衛星廣播電視法我們平面媒體網路媒體有沒有可能有一個NCC來制定一個相關的法規"},{"start":474.004,"end":490.433,"text":"針對傳播的部分因為他很複雜我知道那很複雜的部分我們實在是沒有辦法就是他蓋不同的目的失業主管機關有不同的觸犯不同的法律那個就是由各自法各自去相關的法律去管理"},{"start":491.574,"end":517.885,"text":"但是如果針對傳播的部分NCC可不可以有一個肩膀跟有一個法律把它制定一個相關的法規來處理我們剛剛跟委員報告說網際網路上的媒體這一塊其實也是三律共管在自律的部分 現在九月份已經成立一個台灣媒體法律的部分 那目前"},{"start":519.005,"end":539.46,"text":"印法還沒有問世之前我們其實有訂定軟法剛剛我們總共要訂了五個的指引那未來如果時機成熟的話其實訂定相關的一些法律其實都是有可能的雖然我們110年110年這個數位中介法曾經提出過一次但是但是社會各界有所議論也沒有共識所以才會"},{"start":540.6,"end":567.866,"text":"維持現況剛好這幾年從110年到現在也剛好國際上的潮流其實也很多就是這個分散勢力法特別是德國所以有沒有NCC已經有這個打算已經在做了那就是針對平面媒體平面媒體部分沒有就是網際網路上的你們先針對網際網路網際網路現在已經有在做了大概什麼時候可能會有結果"},{"start":569.118,"end":593.338,"text":"我們五個指引其實有些到年底都會有一兩個指引都可以都可以出來那其他的可能明年會出來總共五個指引大概應該是有兩個今年到明年應該都可以年底現在已經12月了我確定是有兩個指引其實已經可以有兩個指引這個月底已經不是年底了是這個月底對有兩個是可以出來沒問題"},{"start":594.099,"end":618.833,"text":"有兩個可以出來對 指引 軟法那明年的其他三個什麼時候有些明年可以出來明年底以前剩下三個都可以出來明年底 那還要一年但我們會加快啦我是覺得就是今天很具體的建議啦反正跟傳播有關的"},{"start":620.036,"end":635.281,"text":"我們又是傳播委員會所以這個部分真的是必須有一個規則出來只是靠智力是真的不夠所以這個必須要有肩膀有擔當這個就必須讓NCC來承擔這樣OK嗎"},{"start":636.701,"end":659.658,"text":"網際網路部分我們已經在做了OK好沒問題那我們先看年底月底這兩個你就先公布出來然後明年的也先給我們預告一下讓我們大家民眾可以有所依選也知道到底NCC要怎麼做這樣好不好好沒問題OK好那我們就等你的結果好OK謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166214","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166214","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3d185342b0d221b3eb5dd3a7969bdec96dc54cac4b90edbf50b94474edbfc61895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:50:26 - 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先講這個事情你是網際網路的主管機關之一嗎就這個案子的部分目前並不是是由其他機關來主政 NCC是協力其他地方主政當然是司法警察機關主政那我說針對網際網路的部分到底NCC有沒有表示意見的權利你們是不是主管機關"},{"start":60.987,"end":67.176,"text":"我們有一起開會但是處理這兩天媒體報導那部分是其他機關在主政"},{"start":67.976,"end":95.159,"text":"主委因為這個NCC過去有召開所謂的網路政策公聽會換句話說網路政策可能在未來在你們的設定裡面你們應該是要管理整個網路政策平台那過去你們也提到說這個針對的內容這個網路內容不能只有移除作為處置作為應該還有其他的做法來補強除了移除之外的事情應該由NCC來做那今天我想要提這個今天如果今天這個小紅書這個平台"},{"start":96.94,"end":104.715,"text":"我們當初設立這個法的目的是說打詐欺的網站比如說這個網站它本來就是釣魚網站它本來就是真正用來詐騙的網站"},{"start":106.417,"end":128.056,"text":"所以把它禁掉但今天是這個平台裡面的內容有內容是這個但是你把整個平台封掉了我不知道主委對這件事情的看法怎麼樣作為網際網路的主管機關你認同這樣做法未來是不是只要平台上有平台裡面的眾多內容裡面只要涉及詐騙我們就要把這個平台把它封起來"},{"start":128.636,"end":154.286,"text":"跟委員報告分兩個部分通安的部分我們認為網際網路其實全世界都一樣我們認為是目前有作用法的是相對就算是歐盟DSA他其實也是授權各會員國去個別立法其實過去五六年以來其實我們在過往109 110年做一些訴訟法的一些處理但是後來全世界都一樣其實都比較傾向於分散式立法特別是德國"},{"start":155.006,"end":181.506,"text":"那這一塊在台灣其實也做了相當的實踐很多在農委會 衛福部相關的兒少保護那些他們都在他們的作用法裡頭已經立法了好 第二部分回到這個個案的部分那我們開會其實我們接觸到的資訊大致是這樣子的這個案官的這個APP它其實涉及到資安的部分還有這個當然是這個前兩天報紙披露的有涉及到一些"},{"start":183.467,"end":211.16,"text":"打詐的一些潛伏在裡頭那其實就是資安加上涉詐這一塊是目前這個個案比較多拿出來說這個他過程的要求這個主委你講的部分當然官方的新聞稿都提到了但是我們要舉個反例啦或是說成功雖然是反例但是也成功阻止過過去前段時間我們大家談的N號房的時候他這個相關的犯罪相關的這些會員都在所謂Telegram上面在TG上面但是你是把這個"},{"start":212.481,"end":241.801,"text":"平台你不是把整個Telegram封掉嘛你是針對有參與到N號房的這一個社群在這個平台裡面的某個社群他因為涉及違法涉及兒少法等等的問題涉及資安涉及個資涉及詐騙所以把這個平台裡面的這個帳號封掉但是我先講說今天小紅書是這個平台裡面有很多其他內容即便其中有一些內容是涉及詐騙但是你們現在做法是直接把整個平台封掉你不覺得這樣違反比例原則嗎"},{"start":243.942,"end":264.296,"text":"這一部分其實在像剛剛委員提到過往的這個鳳林網等等我們確實說確實了解到說這個對它一個網域域名其實它是跟網域裡頭下頭有很多相對應的網頁其實也有網頁其實不能這樣子因為會錯殺無辜會有比例原則問題那這一塊確實是有在考量"},{"start":264.756,"end":286.637,"text":"但是小红书这一块他本身是因为他本身在中国大陆那边本身对方有一个法律有个包容条款说他们的政府有需要说那他们的这个业者必须要提供相关的资讯这是最大的治安的一个潜伏的让人担心的地方那这一块其实是小红书最大被人诟病的一些"},{"start":287.557,"end":296.868,"text":"的關鍵因素所在那當然他有另外涉炸的部分那當然是兩個加在一起那相關主管機關做些處理我們都予以尊重"},{"start":298.091,"end":318.913,"text":"這個我要提醒NCC啦 因為你們現在如果用把打詐條例視為這個霸王 等於是帝王條款用744條只要涉及詐騙 你們都能夠把他這個整個網路把它封掉 那我覺得可能會涉及到言論審查這塊NCC倒是沒有處理這一塊 個案的部分目前不在NCC處理那我們其實跟委員報告都是"},{"start":320.714,"end":338.941,"text":"網際網路其實也是三綠共管我們都是優先請業者來做好自律那業者至於做不到做不好會有民眾來申訴檢舉那還有第三方來主委沒關係這個東西我知道但是我剛剛講的案例就是像Telegram他們在台灣也沒有公司他們基本上你找不到負責人"},{"start":339.921,"end":355.075,"text":"但是大家手機裡面很多還是繼續使用這個平台因為我們今天針對犯罪的部分我把它封禁掉大家不會有意見今天問題是說今天好像擴張解釋的是因為平台裡面有人犯罪所以你把平台封掉那照這個邏輯來講你把Google也封掉好了"},{"start":355.655,"end":384.255,"text":"因為很多的網很多的犯罪或是Facebook或是Meta或者是整個這個Street上面有很多的所謂部分的人犯罪但是你今天擴張解釋因為打炸條例你擴張解釋變成平台裡面有人犯罪懲處的不是那個人而已是整個平台所有人都被封掉所以我覺得這部分我覺得NCC應該要有所謂的責任你們在內部會議裡面應該提出來你們的見解網際網路跟實體是兩件不同的事情處理方式應該是不一樣的啦"},{"start":385.696,"end":410.242,"text":"確實 我已經講到重點那其實這個比較大的BITTECH相關的一些平台它其實在台灣都有一些相關的窗口也有法律代表那我們現在講的這個個案部分其實是相對跟他們是比較不一樣的所以這邊也是他們跟大平台所推的APP的一些差異沒有 主委我還是要提一下你剛剛講的大平台包含說之前數位不公告那幾個但他們都有代理人但是我剛剛比如提到的"},{"start":411.022,"end":431.129,"text":"犯罪溫床最多使用的就是Telegram不管是洗錢 比特幣這種虛擬貨幣的交易或者是各項奇怪的交易在Telegram平台上面非常多有時候警方也要辦但是你要封的時候是針對這個平台裡面的某個頻道把它封掉但是你不會把整個平台把它禁掉"},{"start":431.809,"end":455.576,"text":"我們並沒有 台灣的網域並沒有把Color Grand這個網域鎖掉沒有把這個APP鎖掉是因為 所以今天小紅書也是對我來講也是類似的概念今天小紅書裡面確實一定各種大型網路平台一定都會有人做一些違法的事情但是有人做違法的事情應該是針對這個當事人這個行為本身而不是把整個平台來把它禁掉我要提醒主委說你不能擴張解釋成這樣子 主委"},{"start":456.335,"end":483.043,"text":"對那我完全理解委員的意見確實都是在撇開資安這一塊比例的比例比例原則問題其實是一個重點但是暗關的這個通訊軟體他本身是有重大的資安那以現在資安就是國安的角度來看那相對的他這邊的他特點完全迥異於其他這個大大的平台的所提供的APP"},{"start":483.752,"end":512.974,"text":"那你們到底封小黃書是依據打詐條例還是依據治安啊我就覺得現在很亂了因為你們這個新聞稿出來這整個週末各單位有各單位不同的說法一下說是詐騙主委現在又說是治安 這樣到底是依據哪一條因為這尊重主管機關內政部跟宿發部的一些處置的那這邊那因為內政部已經發新聞稿那我們是是協同機關如果未來後續有NCC要協力幫我們協力這邊我們當然是尊重主管機關的"},{"start":514.595,"end":537.241,"text":"主政的一些事項為什麼大家會常常覺得NCC有時候有跟沒有一樣這個案例我也不是要針對你但是今天大家覺得NCC你既然作為網際網路主管機關內政部他們當然負責治安 負責打詐這個沒問題但是你們的專業意見你們對於網際網路這個東西這個概念是什麼我覺得你們應該提供專業意見給內政部"},{"start":538.982,"end":561.113,"text":"網際網路行政院的分工原則是說它對應實體由各目的事業主管機關來負責那小紅書本身也有廣告那廣告不提涉及到這個經濟數位經濟部分那不是由速發部來處理那你就他涉詐涉詐部分當然就是內政部來主政那NCC的部分其實目前比較多的是兒少的相關的一些處理"},{"start":561.693,"end":577.508,"text":"那基本上就是說他還是分散式立法的對應的各主管對應各個分散式立法的目的世界主管集團來統籌處理這樣資安的話當然都是書發部以上好 主委已經時間到了我最後要再講一下你們這個"},{"start":579.089,"end":605.707,"text":"網際網路傳播政策的這個白皮書已經出神了那到底什麼時候會有一個比較完整的方向讓大家有一個依循的這個做法因為對我們來講今天會有這個這件事情發生有可能是因為我們所謂的網際網路的這個相關的政策並沒有很明確的去定義它的這個角色跟定義它的這個分散是怎麼管理就像我們剛剛不斷在強調一件事情當初我們在歷史十二條的時候我們是針對立法的意旨應該是針對詐騙的網站"},{"start":608.271,"end":636.452,"text":"但是你們今天在執行的時候是把它擴張解釋的就是只要涉及的所以我覺得這是一個很大的很大的問題啦就大家覺得說你們變成利用這個利用這42條在做言論審查或是看人不開心的找個理由把它關掉大家感受就是這樣為什麼這個反彈大家網路上使用者的反彈會這麼大你今天把一些詐騙的網站把它關掉過去關了很多沒有人有意見你們的績效表現大家都說有有你們在做事情數位部也好NC也好"},{"start":636.932,"end":656.326,"text":"你們把過去的一些涉及詐騙的釣魚網站也好或者是金融網站也好把它關掉沒有人反彈大家都支持但今天大家反彈是因為你不是只有把所謂涉詐的平台裡面的這個帳號把它封掉是把整個平台禁止使用問題在這邊所以我要拜託跟主委再講一下這事情你們第一個整個網路"},{"start":656.906,"end":682.265,"text":"我國的網路平台政策你們既然開了公聽會議要去做相關的這個規範那趕快提出來因為我想網路已經發展到今天這樣子各種新的平台已經出現白皮書其實已經整理到差不多後續因為是屬於重大政策要經過委員會議來討論目前NCC沒有委員會議就比較沒有辦法進行最後最後10公尺的一些討論處理那就你們行政院趕快提名單提好的名單出來我們在那省啦好不好 主委謝謝好 謝謝委員 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謝謝我們召委請我們陳代主委陳主委請委員早好 陳代主委來 第一個很冒昧的請教一下NCC委員被本宴夥結之後現在有沒有在徵詢"},{"start":29.625,"end":52.456,"text":"有沒有準備 還要再提出來因為四個才可以開會 現在只有三個陳代主委 以你了解 行政院有沒有開始在作業有沒有跟委員報告 這一部分 我這邊是毫無所惜也沒有聽說還沒有齁 這個我要特別跟卓院長講"},{"start":54.571,"end":82.807,"text":"我們現在在第一次又再提醒被吼劫之後請行政院院長盡快的把NCC委員盡快補足不要到最後又說我們立法院不審所以我要呼籲我們卓院長你如果聽到那請盡快再提出來NCC你們不是說三個不能運作嗎"},{"start":83.988,"end":102.836,"text":"所以盡快提出來這個我要特別呼籲當然這個你也是幕僚單位啦這個也是行政院主要所以特別有機會我還是建請我們陳代主委提醒卓院長一下好不好好來接下來我這個下一張接下來"},{"start":109.281,"end":133.666,"text":"台灣媒體正面臨非常嚴峻的考驗也就是2025 全球的新聞自由指標由吳國介 記者組織聯盟發布台灣新聞自由面臨到政治兩極化"},{"start":134.884,"end":156.554,"text":"所謂的政治兩極化就是綠的就是綠台藍的就是藍台中立應該是新聞自由的中立根本不曉得在哪邊所以陳太子委你為什麼去發現到很多我們立法院的同仁在修"},{"start":157.894,"end":177.817,"text":"衛星廣播電視滑為什麼就是有很多不滿的地方新聞自由完完全全他的自由蕩然之無存所以陳代主委你有看到這個政治兩極化的這個問題你有沒有看到"},{"start":179.265,"end":193.917,"text":"這個是在社會第三人觀察或者非政府機構的觀察其實這應該是不陌生啦有沒有看到這則報導有所以就是要鼓勵你的同仁嘛"},{"start":195.373,"end":218.584,"text":"這無風不起浪國際組織都這樣認定那當然我們要悉心檢討嘛這個該改進的要改進嘛那如果沒有我們就把它當成免資嘛所以我還是呼籲啊陳代主委你在代理這段時間基本上我對於你公正兩制啊是算及格"},{"start":219.324,"end":244.121,"text":"但是沒有達到真正獨立單位一個行使之前的主委這個立場所以最起碼你是及格的比以前的主委啊那是好多但是我還是希望再接再厲做到一個真正獨立單位的代主委的一個職責這個我特別要勉勵來 接下來這一張啊"},{"start":247.737,"end":274.978,"text":"陳太主委你再看一下也就是世界國際組織裡面NCC應要有作為這裡面也就是台灣最不被信用的媒體前三名第一三立電視台第二民視電視台第三自由時報主委你看完這個你有什麼感覺"},{"start":277.921,"end":299.892,"text":"我們提倡就是我們大家都擁護新聞自由大家都遵從這個普世價值那一般都是可以認可的立場是新聞媒體可以有立場但是不能違法不能也要有是非那這邊如果說他的信任度涉及到事實查證的違法部分我們都會依法來處理"},{"start":300.697,"end":318.242,"text":"沒有啦 這個沒有事實查證啦這個人家是一個公正單位國際組織裡面他們對我們的一個警示啦當然沒有鞭策作用但是提高給我們監督單位去做一個國際對我們感覺的這個部分"},{"start":321.403,"end":343.517,"text":"要特別特別要去注意這個事所以主委當然因為我提出這兩個一個就是政治兩極化一個就是國際指資對於我們新聞媒體的自由完全淡然無存沒有信心這個部分所以我要拜託主委這兩個都是國際性質的"},{"start":345.598,"end":368.484,"text":"都沒有政治意味的他們所觀察到的東西所以希望主委你在這個部分我希望勉勵我們各NCC所有的同仁那一定要秉持這些朝著這個公正公開透明的方向尤其本黨所提出來三大主軸啊"},{"start":369.484,"end":387.813,"text":"這個三大主軸就很簡單啊我們在乎的就是財務公開透明的部分那我也知道電視台顧慮的是什麼可是你最起碼任何事情公開公平去做監督我相信"},{"start":388.493,"end":409.737,"text":"都沒有人會對你有所質疑啦所以我希望陳代主委這個部分要特別特別去把它當成是一個鼓勵跟參佐領導的一個風格所以這兩個主持人 好不好來 接下來那金管會有人來嗎金管會來這個金管會來"},{"start":424.816,"end":442.412,"text":"我要談的就是現在我們這個一萬塊錢花出來這是政府之美意 民意代表所爭取可是最起碼的話金管會不曉得有沒有留意到現在金融業裡面釣魚減性滿天輝"},{"start":447.057,"end":460.038,"text":"這陳太主委跟這個金管會的代表你們對於這件事情本席提出來你們現在有什麼防備之道可以告訴我們本縣嗎"},{"start":462.325,"end":490.968,"text":"來 諸位先來好 各位報告針對簡訊涉炸的部分分為兩大區塊一個是商業簡訊 一個是個人簡訊商業簡訊目前有處理機制只要裡頭有網頁的連結或者電話號碼那除非是經過有白名單的過濾處理要不然都是通通都禁止發送那個人的簡訊的部分那目前由於是電信管理法有那個通訊秘密不能夠業者不能看他內容但是我們從行為上來看 假設他一天"},{"start":491.808,"end":516.09,"text":"發射的發送的折數超過一定程度我們請業者要叫他回來做KYC這一塊那目前就通報部分其實大概從去年以來那1萬塊這個案子之前大概其實釣魚檢訊的案子相對165通報部分是相對沒有這個要特別注意一下啦這個非常嚴重那我希望金管會"},{"start":517.071,"end":543.005,"text":"也要配合NCC也好 數位部也好因為打詐現在全世界認為台灣最好騙的一個王狗啦所以我在想當然金管會主管這些NCC的業務是涵蓋這個部分當然打詐不是只有金管會的事也不是只有NCC的事那最起碼要跨部會啦"},{"start":543.965,"end":571.471,"text":"所以我還是希望我們現在真的要停止各自為政要跨部會要接軌合作這樣的話才會達到真正我們NCC有權利該斷的就要斷該防備的就要防備但是金管會該對金融機構為什麼我要提出來是金融機構是很嚴重"},{"start":573.823,"end":593.075,"text":"不管是公營的或民營的銀行那個簡信他們的簡信資料是從哪邊來呢到底是電信公司賣出去或者我們那個銀行去把它洩漏出去這是一個非常嚴重的問題耶主委還有金管會"},{"start":594.458,"end":609.09,"text":"我們會持續努力 其實在行政院有打詐指揮中心統合的這個內政部 NCC 抒發部 金管會跟法國部做這個阻詐 堵詐 防詐懲詐的一些相關的工作我們都其實都有常常密集的開會來處理好來金管會"},{"start":612.796,"end":637.778,"text":"不要請你上來都不講話來我想金融業的那個打詐的部分原則上我們都是配合那個行政院我知道你配合啦但是問題非常嚴重我現在在疑問的就是說這些簡信到底是你們資料漏出去或者那對那個那個老人家存了兩萬存了三萬領了一萬兩萬你們問的好像好像非常非常這個緊密"},{"start":640.441,"end":666.514,"text":"嚴謹但是為什麼會有這種情形所以我還是要拜託跨部會這些聯繫非常重要不要各自為政所以這個部分金融業的掉以減性非常嚴重希望金管會還有我們陳代主委要把這個事情當成是一回事專案的下去了解一下好不好好沒有問題我們會持續跟好謝謝兩位"},{"start":669.538,"end":670.551,"text":"好 謝謝林國成委員"}]}},{"id":"166211","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166211","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3161842872058122446ee6dd7c9e9cb52dc54cac4b90edbf5826982371071214a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:03:55 - 10:14:46","影片長度":"00:10:51","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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60的方式"},{"start":53.564,"end":67.681,"text":"本席也參與這樣一個連署那重點就是我們希望能夠讓整個覆蓋率能夠提高針對這部分可不可以請部長表示一下我們如果從50 50提高到40 60的部分您是不是支持"},{"start":68.722,"end":91.852,"text":"我跟你們報告現在委員的版本大概有兩種一種就是說總額提高就是1比1變成1比1.5那另外一個方式是保障不變然後政府出多一點然後農民出少一點我們農業部的立場是希望說保障不變然後農民少出一點政府多出一點就是6比4的方式因為現在目前"},{"start":92.572,"end":115.487,"text":"我們也問過問卷了以後就是農民現在初期經營不確定性很高所以繳的少一點的話對他們來講是有利的理解 所以說目前比方說部長這邊或院門這邊其實是用四十六十的方式六四的部分來做那個方案規劃 對OK 那我想說這部分都沒問題我們只要能夠提高整個一個覆蓋率來說的時候我覺得就是值得支持的一個方向"},{"start":116.187,"end":140.165,"text":"那我今天想特別跟部長這邊請教其實有關於智慧農業的一個部分因為近年來因為整個農村人口的老化跟人力的一個短缺那無人機的一個使用其實變得有一點點的重要那麼我在想說目前整個農業部這邊當然也推出了一個無人機農藥帶噴制度我想部長應該對這部分是熟悉的"},{"start":140.936,"end":160.967,"text":"那我想說無人機要合法能夠來做一個帶噴的部分大概需要有幾個條件第一個它必須要是法人然後第二它必須要有雙證書包括民航局的無人機高級專業操作證還有農業部的農藥帶噴技術人員證書我想請教一下部長到目前為止我們農業部這邊所發出來的農藥帶噴人員執照總共有多少量"},{"start":172.325,"end":190.303,"text":"這個詳細的數字可能我會有再提供給你應該是六七百人左右OK 不只啦部長我簡單跟你講到113年底的時候大概就有2285人取得農業部的一個農業帶分技術人員證書可是 真正同時是法人5606人這個部分"},{"start":192.425,"end":210.25,"text":"我要講的狀態是506人他是取得雙證書所以我剛問的是農業部這邊發出來的證照因為他必須取得雙證書然後還必須要有法人登記所以506這個部分其實是符合這三個條件的時候能夠去執行業務的人"},{"start":212.171,"end":234.917,"text":"我想說它的比例都是不夠高的所以我們希望說這個部分要怎麼樣子能夠提高這樣子的一個比例讓整個智慧農業的部分尤其是無人機的部分能夠真正往下走我想請教一下部長因為在推這樣子的一個無人機的"},{"start":235.797,"end":245.151,"text":"那個農業發展這邊的時候針對農藥噴灑無人機的部分有一個很大的狀態是RTK的一個系統"},{"start":246.192,"end":271.548,"text":"那我會請教部長為什麼RTK這個即時動態的定位服務系統它從110年就已經完工了就是農業部這邊在推這部已經完工到113年6月份的時候取得了整個資訊平台的認證可是到目前已經超過一年了這個服務還沒有辦法提供出來請問到底是為什麼"},{"start":272.368,"end":299.177,"text":"我跟委員報告因為RTK在定位的時候因為他定位到公分級的部分所以相關的就是資安的部分分兩個一個是數位資安一個是國防的安全所以相關的這些所謂的機場附近的怎麼樣的做屏蔽那這個部分我們在今年的10月31號才完成所有的資安場域的認證所謂的資安場域認證就是說哪一些是可以飛的哪一些是不可以飛的"},{"start":300.037,"end":327.219,"text":"那这样的话以后用RTK才有用第二个部分就是我们RTK的部分大概在12月17号在今年12月17号会对业者做说明然后说明完了以后我们在说明完了以后应该在明年初就可以开始接受业者的登记所以今年12月17号会开始对业者说明明年1月1号开始能够开始让业者去登记明年初的时候就可以开始明年初大概什么时候"},{"start":327.739,"end":343.792,"text":"就是要看業者的說明然後給他們登記然後相關的因為他簽得到很多相關的資訊他們也要接收器理解 那這個東西因為推得有一點久了那我想請教一下我們RTK精準定位服務管理辦法是不是同時會配套出來"},{"start":345.133,"end":361.168,"text":"應該相關的遊戲規則會做出來這也是我困擾的因為RTK是當年我在農事所當所長的時候推動的可是發現推了以後他是很精準的定位可是管理單位啦現在就是經營主體就變得很困擾我"},{"start":362.109,"end":387.219,"text":"因為以國家的立場來講其實RTK不只是農業部那種其他的無人機都可以使用所以我們也曾經花了一段時間跟內政部去做溝通看有沒有辦法把它整合在一起部長因為這個部分我想說對整個我們智慧農業的發展其實很重要的一環那我想說無人機這個相關用在農用這邊的時候我覺得肯定也是一個我們要去積極去推的部分"},{"start":387.639,"end":416.686,"text":"那這個部分竟然一開始當時是你這邊推的我們就希望能夠盡速把它完善出來好不好讓它真正能夠用我了解然後剛才特別委員所提到的2000多人裡面只有506人是可以其中有一個蠻重要的是我們當初是限定到法人那法人變得有點類似要靠行所以我準備把這個法人這個部分把它解開要把它解開來嗎你如果說有創證照然後你有相關的這些機制都符合規定的話其實治安人應該也可以啦"},{"start":417.487,"end":436.302,"text":"這個我想我們內部還在討論我希望把它解開那我們希望這部分能夠盡速把它給落實然後能夠推動出來我們希望能夠對整個台灣的一個整體農業有所幫助那我接下來我想問一個狀態就是有關於廚餘的一個問題因為現在我們就確定就是從後年1月1號開始的時候所有的廚餘禁用對不對"},{"start":439.403,"end":455.948,"text":"部長那我覺得這個部分我就考慮到一個狀態第一個是當時配合我們農業部的一個政策讓廚餘加熱這個事情配合的一個廠商或者是一些養豬戶對他們來講現在對他們來講會不會是一個處罰"},{"start":458.869,"end":485.138,"text":"因為他們當時配合可能也投入了資金去增加了一些投資現在政策轉了一個彎之後的時候反而對他們來說造成一些處罰農業部這邊要怎麼去做因為本席其實支持就是除以不要再去養這個政策我某個部分我是支持的可是對於這之前的一個狀態配合這樣的政策的農戶或者是企業來說我們要怎麼去處理後面的部分"},{"start":485.638,"end":512.284,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說在這一年的過渡期我們提供了轉型非常高的誘因就是每一頭豬我們給他3600然後衛視的設備規模大小從30萬到300萬所以一個大廠的話大概可以得到補助大概將近上千萬以上理解這是講說接下來狀態我講說之前比方說配合我們政策去做很多的一個真主設備投入的這些的廠商另外共同你講的是共同真主中心"},{"start":513.044,"end":540.894,"text":"共同政治中心我們現在會協助他以後變成廚餘的飼料化的一個工廠或者是能源化的一個工廠那這個部分因為現在目前只有全順苗栗的全順一家唯一一家對我們現在會協助他因為未來以後的植物性的料源或者是禽類的下腳料他也可以在那邊做整組變成飼料所以這個部分我想我們也會積極還有我們會引導一些私人公司跟他合作OK"},{"start":542.094,"end":559.478,"text":"部長沒有問題 我想說這個部分其實是因為我們政策轉完之後我們勢必要去面對的問題那我現在我想特別去了解一個部分我們農業部跟環境部這邊有沒有去做溝通因為當我們之前的廚餘的時候有相當大的量都用在我們的一個養豬這邊的一個把它給"},{"start":561.919,"end":578.968,"text":"使用掉的時候 當我們現在整個政策不行用的時候那按照農業部的一個估計我們每天有將近2000噸的一個廚餘 處理一公噸的廚餘大概需要5000塊到8000塊不等的預算 那我們現在這個部分的時候"},{"start":579.648,"end":593.262,"text":"我們接下來如果全面禁止廚餘的時候那我們農業部估算大概需要花補助養豬戶多少的飼料錢每年大概要多少然後環境部跟地方政府要花多少錢來處理這個廚餘"},{"start":595.104,"end":617.831,"text":"我跟委員報告大概我們做飼料加差補貼大概一頭是一個月是600塊600塊大概是600塊的部分所以我們從10月開始一直會補助到年底嘛那補助到年底的話完了以後我們的轉型期我們繼續補助6個月就是3600塊讓他能夠順利的去做一個轉型之後呢"},{"start":618.959,"end":646.858,"text":"沒有 當你轉型的話你就開始支持就沒有了嘛那我想說環境部接下來的時候要來怎麼樣處理廚餘這個部分我覺得它很重要那我們也希望農業部跟環境部這邊能夠做很好的溝通然後請部長這邊了解環境部這邊後續的一個做法再跟本辦公室做一個報告我們一直在討論沒有問題這個我想我們也可以請邀請環境部一起跟您到您那邊做一些說明OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":648.561,"end":649.523,"text":"好 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也就是以掃聘一名專案教師給10萬塊的方式企圖令學校加速解聘專案教師免洗完了就丟了這種方式企圖令學校來加速這種負面的作業"},{"start":326.772,"end":348.352,"text":"非常令人寒心更令人担忧的是即便教育部祭出重赏然而数字会说话根据统计大专院校专案教师的占比仍然是106年的4.85%提高到113年的6.64%并未见到显著的改善"},{"start":349.493,"end":367.653,"text":"顯然有負各界期待因此期望透過此次大學法的通盤檢討能夠真正的將教師評鑑制度趕快導回正軌不要再淪為校方剝削與控制教師的一把利刃"},{"start":369.844,"end":390.263,"text":"同时也要解决专案教师非教非劳的艰难处境促进大学以长期编制内聘雇的方式为优先才对此外目前各大学校务会议普遍出现与学术或行政主管混冲教师代表的现象"},{"start":391.384,"end":418.574,"text":"這不但危害了校園民主更造成校務會議失去原來所應扮演的平衡監督功能對此我認為應該要藉由此次大學法修法的機會重新討論大學校務會議的組成代表在教師代表部分應該納入未兼任學術或行政主管之教師免得求援兼裁判"},{"start":419.734,"end":443.433,"text":"並因等比例納入編制外教職員的代表同時也應該增加學生代表的比例使大學校務會議的整體組成能夠真正發揮校園民主的精神這才是大學自治否則大學自治變成只是特定人士的自助餐"},{"start":444.619,"end":472.386,"text":"同時考量目前私立大專院校的校長遴選制度在制度上幾乎完全沒有給予教職員生任何參與的空間而將校長遴選或連任與否的權利全然的賦予董事會導致私立大專院校校長的選任經常可能不具有教職員生的民意基礎與校園民主的精神相違背"},{"start":473.146,"end":493.046,"text":"也因此希望透過此次大學法的修法可以在校長遴選與連任的過程當中納入全校教職員生的意見以真正落實校園民主與自治的精神而不是空有法規而實際落實的時候改為人質"},{"start":494.227,"end":510.936,"text":"最後再次感謝劉書斌趙偉安排今天的公聽會也非常感謝各位專家代表不遠千里齊聚於此我也感謝教育部以及行政機關所派的代表剛才我發言的時候市長"},{"start":511.556,"end":524.062,"text":"全程專注的聆聽並且撰寫筆記所以我也希望我們來自民間來自學界的聲音真的能夠一一被聽到而且被納入修法的意見當中"},{"start":525.962,"end":546.498,"text":"此次表達各方的意見也是我們公僕的職責所在那也希望列席的部會代表也就能夠誠摯的聆聽各界的意見作為未來大學法修法的參考依據也期望教育部能夠儘快的提出大學法修法的版本"},{"start":548.139,"end":560.646,"text":"屆時我們可以在國會的殿堂共同進行討論審議並且進行競訴通過謝謝大家 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政務委員在10月20號開過協調會特別提到這個農地的垃圾的侵潤還有農地土砂的處理"},{"start":406.625,"end":430.574,"text":"都是要由農業部來去處理這個要進行啊我們已經在進行農地的垃圾清潤時序在做農地土砂的處理的部分剛才說的就是50公分以下的我們現在做翻耕翻耕我們已經有一個輔導團去協助說翻耕以後是不是要做一些土壤改良這個已經在做了比較重災的就是50公分以上大概218公頃"},{"start":431.954,"end":458.533,"text":"那這218公頃的話因為它腹土太高了然後看看有沒有辦法農地重劃那這個我們也已經發了問卷部長你剛剛都講過了重複了對我們都做問卷啊先解決這個好不好先解決這個要不要先把它搬走啊沒有這個我跟委員報告這個土完全不可能全部搬走啦因為全部搬走至少五年而且搬了以後不是部長你自己看嘛它那麼高啊"},{"start":459.68,"end":478.44,"text":"對 所以我們才會說不同的深度的時候我們有不同的處理的方法那有些地方可以農地重劃農地重劃的時候我們也問了開始做問卷如果願意農地重劃的話這個都可以打平就是不挖但是它土地的那個土砂的高度會變高"},{"start":480.697,"end":497.093,"text":"好 這個部分因為時間的關係再請你們負責業務的我想我們的進度隨時跟委員報告因為我們一直不斷的跟居民做溝通"},{"start":499.039,"end":511.034,"text":"這個就找你們這個是農田水利署我們有一個團隊然後這個土砂的部分是農田水利署就請你們那個團隊跟我討論一下好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166207","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166207","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3e31676e67d360c1a46ee6dd7c9e9cb522703a5ba45612974da277b577d0128215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:44:40 - 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我們請部長好 就請陳部長謝謝部長 辛苦了我想今天不論是勞退儲金或是我們的勞農津貼其實我們已經講很久了從去年一直催催催催到今天那為什麼在你們院板還沒送進來我要先排我們要逼著你啊"},{"start":38.971,"end":51.439,"text":"明明你在多久以前就已經說你們已經送到院會了我們很早就送到行政院去那為什麼一直沒出我們的行政院送到立法院"},{"start":52.932,"end":75.853,"text":"我覺得我們現在的執政會有一個盲點我們明明要做的我們都不阿沙裡去做然後每一次都讓我們的農民還有相關的一些權利者等又等 忘又忘然後三催四起我們的版本才出來"},{"start":77.114,"end":104.545,"text":"這是不對的我們這個早就定調啦我們農民退休儲金本來我們就要幫忙我們能夠更多的農民加入我們這個行列當中就是要有誘因嘛當時候我們蔡英文總統跟我們農業部去推這個農民儲金退休儲金就是這個方向嘛可是因為誘因不足所以"},{"start":105.345,"end":120.299,"text":"加入這個退休儲金條例的制度的人非常的少所以我們才去檢討要怎麼樣能夠加強誘因這個去年就有共識啦那為什麼拖到現在還沒出來"},{"start":121.38,"end":144.454,"text":"所以部長我覺得剛剛如果版本有出來其實就會解釋到大家很多的疑慮包括說我們到底現在政府要提撥多少現在是6比4嘛大概我們的方向是政府60%我們提出來的版本跟立法院報告的版本是60比40對嘛 60比40政府負擔多一點"},{"start":147.396,"end":171.03,"text":"對啊 政府負擔多一點不再是像過去一比一嘛而且你今天出來之後我有詳細聽你剛剛的報告也就是說我們同樣有這樣的一個保障然後我們農民少繳少繳一點 對 少繳可是他得到的跟現在他們所得到的保障是一樣的對 保障一樣少繳一點 對嘛"},{"start":172.731,"end":196.747,"text":"所以如果我們版本早一點出來就沒有這麼多的疑慮然後還有我們一直在強調的我們怎麼讓青農願意有誘因可以加入到我們這個制度裡面就是我們把勞保跟農保可能有用了一個不一樣的制度來做調和也就是說當他自己在職場當中"},{"start":198.328,"end":220.587,"text":"他想要回到我們農民制度的當中他可以把勞保跟農保能做一個共同計算然後如果這當中他萬一自己又想回到到了農保之後又想回到勞工職場他又可以回到勞保這個調和板我們到底現在是怎麼做"},{"start":221.962,"end":248.44,"text":"我也跟委員報告除了剛才所提到的6比4以外我們針對這些自營的這些參加勞保的這些工作者他實際是從事那個農業的部分那這個部分我們也提出了相關的方案就是同意讓他加入農退贖金雖然說他沒有農保他只有勞保那過去不行現在我們希望說開這條路讓他能夠從事而且這部分的人也不少而且是相關"},{"start":249.361,"end":264.198,"text":"大概是三十幾歲的那些主力非常多就是我們的親農這就是我們的親農所以在這個我們政府的這個政策你要很清楚講給大家聽"},{"start":265.539,"end":291.716,"text":"讓我們的青農認為說我本身現在有勞保制度我想用的是勞保可是我現在一樣可以進到當我也是從事農民的相關作業我是可以加入我們的這個退休儲金這也是我們在歷史跟青農做談的時候他們提出來的一個建議所以我們也把它設計了一個方法大概大概有4萬多人"},{"start":292.896,"end":318.167,"text":"這4萬多人應該可以讓他加入我們的農退儲金那一次座談之後我們跟青農提到這一點其實青農都很接受他覺得這樣對他們來講是有另外一個保障是也不會是說我現在從事農保然後我要加入了我現在從事勞保我要加入我們農業的相關這些退休儲金是沒有辦法的"},{"start":318.587,"end":338.137,"text":"如果有調和之後他們又多了一個選擇是他們更容易把這樣的一個銜接做好所以這個很重要所以為什麼我說在這一次我們要逼著我們行政院趕快把版本送出來就是這個原因了解所以部長"},{"start":339.378,"end":348.524,"text":"我今天不會排審本來我要排審等待你們進來但是你們沒有所以我今天不會排審等到你願凡進來我12月22號繼續排審"},{"start":353.744,"end":369.541,"text":"两个礼拜的时间够了我想我会跟行政院尽量的沟通看看可不可以尽早的进到院会因为版本已经都没有问题了是他什么时候排进院会只要他这个礼拜排进院会那基本上我们下个礼拜我们都不复议"},{"start":370.682,"end":394.375,"text":"這個沒有人會提富裕很快就進到12月22號納入我們這一次的討論12月22號部長我先跟你提醒然後再來有一點也就是我們老農津貼的排富這個也是一樣我們從過去一直提一直提我們已經太久沒處理了多久了"},{"start":395.836,"end":422.963,"text":"我們老農今年的排富從100年開始都沒有調我們只調額度額度4年調一次對嘛以我們的整個調整用CBI的部分去做調整嘛對不對可是你知道嗎很多人都不知道呢我覺得你們沒有去做宣傳很多人都說為什麼我們老農的福利今天並沒有調整有啊"},{"start":424.366,"end":452.928,"text":"它是每年它是四年一次依照我們的CPI去做調整對不對對對不對所以你這個要對外講到最近還有農民來跟我們說我們老農好像是三等國民為什麼我們都沒有增加我們的津貼有啊之前我們修過一次法了嘛就每四年調整一次那是不是四年太久了對"},{"start":454.383,"end":465.816,"text":"我們是不是要再從這個四年再去做思考我覺得應該是要做這樣子我們現在已經調整了可是農民的感覺還是無感"},{"start":467.054,"end":493.562,"text":"所以就表示這四年是太久了所以我們是不是應該再把這四年的一個檢討期再縮短這個拜託我們的部長再思考一下我跟委員報告我們到立法院到行政院的版本裡面也考慮到這一點過去四年調一次那如果這幾年在這個之間如果CPI變動很大的時候等四年太久了所以我們有設計在中間大概兩年的時候"},{"start":494.122,"end":520.296,"text":"他超過CPI 超過某個門檻就啟動這個調整但是四年還是不變那第二個部分是排富的部分就像委員所說的排富的部分根據那個COV就是地價的那個公告土地限值的部分我們過去從100年到現在已經累積了大概百分之六十幾快七十了所以我們也一併會調整排富的部分跟個人所得的部分都會一併來調整那這個就什麼時候要送進來"},{"start":521.038,"end":550.478,"text":"我們同樣的也是在行政院都在行政院那因為老農福利津貼是由衛福部是由這個衛環委員會做主審所以這個部分我們希望這個部分應該要同步送進來我跟委員報告行政院當初在考量這個的時候就是因為考到其他的八大社福但是我們也一直強調可不可以讓老農津貼先走"},{"start":551.238,"end":566.173,"text":"因為鳥籠今天太久沒調整了啦太久沒調整所以其實我們都有提版本從我們這個CPI是不是要調整機制嘛這個希望CPI一年或"},{"start":566.733,"end":592.143,"text":"平均成长率超过3%的时候就要做调整这是停飞的提案嘛就是说在调整机制当中虽然现在四年可是太久了人民无感所以我们要求一年或一次在CPI平均成长率超过3%你就要调整还有我们排富的条款就是农业所得以外的所得总额超过60万"},{"start":593.263,"end":620.75,"text":"就要去做這個處理還有個人所有土地及房屋價值900萬還有沒有農舍者個人所有唯一且有用於居住的房屋可額外扣除700萬這是停飛的提案所以我們拜託我們的行政院版本要符合民意要進帥提出這個部分再拜託部長會 我們會來努力好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166206","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166206","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3c3f03c3cb9040bcd46ee6dd7c9e9cb522703a5ba4561297494876b56de8f8c9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:26:34 - 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我們有請部長這個部長您說您真的是叫農業部的部長嗎本席從你對於您自己的結論這第一點跟第二點叫做自我打臉你說要建構四大農民福利體系完備農民社會經濟安全為農業部重要的實戰之一好 等等等 最後一句話與其他行業人員退休後享有相當的生活水準保障這是第一點"},{"start":43.09,"end":59.805,"text":"第二點呢 你又講提高啦 就是在批評我們立法院的制度啦我們所有的委員說提高政府的容退租金提交比例將影響職業間的橫貧性且對其他行業的退休制度會有連帶效應"},{"start":61.978,"end":87.472,"text":"這個不是自我打臉嗎你不是說要保障我們的農民退休跟其他的農業的其他的行業要有一定的生活水準現在說好了我們提高了政府提高6我們這個降到農民降到4然後你就說喔不對喔一個月農民領到4萬多將近5萬這會影響職業間的和平性這不是自我打臉的一個結論嗎"},{"start":89.193,"end":94.661,"text":"第二點 你對於我們在來 我直接進入到本席的"},{"start":98.072,"end":118.364,"text":"這個這個這個資訊青龍不敢提老龍不長家就是你現在的容退制度的問題你的制度在哪 農民卻不在這裡面這個制度你們很清楚喔我們的農民農保大概85萬人未滿65歲的符合容退的也就現在講儲金的你85萬的農保當中符合容退的才22萬"},{"start":120.245,"end":122.507,"text":"好這22萬到今年3月底前曾經參加過農退的也不過11萬也就是22萬有農保的有參加過農退的才11萬然後呢如果我這11萬扣掉現在還真正在繳的就9萬扣掉已經65歲正在請領的現在才9萬"},{"start":139.48,"end":159.413,"text":"所以實質覆蓋率這9萬佔22萬大概覆蓋率就四成出頭而已我們立法院預算中心也提醒你囉在去年9月的時候融退提繳人口只佔我的融退就是現在講的這個融退提繳的只佔融保未滿65歲的被保人的27.63%好我們念茲在金的青龍20到29歲的青年的提撥率更是在這個融退當中是只有24也就是這個數字告訴我們什麼"},{"start":169.82,"end":180.544,"text":"農民真正的農民不在這裡面親農不敢提老農不想加這就是你們公開承認的現況你們講的很好聽四大保險四大福利三保一金所謂的安全網但是就是要讓什麼農民不在看天吃飯老農放心離農你要親農願意從農攤開來看你這四大福利123農保確實是有提高最後一項有關農退的這部分你們還停在"},{"start":199.031,"end":216.946,"text":"志願參加提提越久領越多的口號那真的有真的這樣子吸引人嗎真的有真的提越多領越久自動加入的有增加嗎沒有嘛所以你自己的調查也很清楚啊收入不穩經濟負擔重不確定撐不撐到65歲"},{"start":222.233,"end":236.092,"text":"這就是農民的悲哀啊很多早年投保 勞保這個我們農民啊 他勞保的資格是相當高的所以他不得已 他只要加入農保我加入農保的時候 我又要"},{"start":237.073,"end":254.747,"text":"又不敢放棄年金 有人還甚至以為 農退我加入這個退休儲金 我會影響到老農今天這都過去在今年五月的時候 本席就提出來的的一個現況 所以你的制度跟現實生活是對不起來的所以呢你 秦部長你不要再講了說我們這個農退啊 這個覆蓋率比勞退的志願提高啦還高來安慰自己你總是不能比爛說 我們比爛爛得少一點啦"},{"start":265.976,"end":280.687,"text":"你應該是將所謂號稱的完整的安全網中間的那一塊破網給他補起來啊好那個破網是什麼就是一大堆農民尤其是青農尤其在加保在農保當中實際務農的人他沒有辦法來領你的領你的這個農退儲金啊這才是重點啊你要保證的是真正務農又在農保當中但是他又沒有辦法"},{"start":293.137,"end":320.995,"text":"去加入你的農業這個儲金的部分好所以我們立法院提案從1比1到6比4政府要多扛一點所以這邊你的報告就是您的最後一句話農民退休金如果高到每月4萬5萬擔心職業橫貧性所以現階段尚無調整規劃這個很凸顯你你根本就不把農業當作一個產業我們現在在高科技業當中進足的是什麼進足的是那個技術嗎"},{"start":322.676,"end":345.747,"text":"競逐的是那個國際競爭那個布局嗎半導體競爭的就是人才人才人才人才才是讓這個半導體護國神山永續布局全球讓台灣立於不敗之地的重要的原因人才為什麼那個台積電為什麼那些退休的人才大家一定要挖角會影響整個台積電的營運"},{"start":347.648,"end":352.731,"text":"人才才是重點啦 所以今天我要農業你說你要農業的自給力提高你要農業的自給力提高"},{"start":357.541,"end":380.223,"text":"從容人口在哪裡老的都一直退了然後年輕的投來進來他看不到65對你要叫我容那個退休的退休的這個處境要領到65歲才讓我看得到中間在今年5月我就提醒了你的容退當你的同隊當中一定要2點設計嘛第一個你要跟你的補助瓜哥我加入容退的我所有的今天我的"},{"start":380.603,"end":400.138,"text":"肥料的補助增加我的人才的補助增加我的我申請的農業機具的補助增加你要有我說我參加農隊我有這些這些保障嘛再來你不要一直逼到65歲啊你中間啊好啊這個因為我的市場變化我實在沒有辦法從農了或者我種種的原因我必須離農了"},{"start":401.519,"end":419.107,"text":"我當中我必須我不用撐到六十歲你給我退休的退出農退啊那你政府的部分看是我要百分百還給你但本席主張就還給你這個百分之十就好了也不要說通通都還給你們因為你要補助你要支持我們的農業人才嘛這兩點"},{"start":421.468,"end":444.16,"text":"從頭到尾你的今天主席再次的排入就是知道對農民的這個保障不足嘛結果你的結語講了那麼多結語等於叫廢話連篇哪有保障我們農民哪有把農業的人才當作是我們提高農業自給率的重要重中之重沒有啊好所以本席的立場很簡單"},{"start":445.581,"end":472.082,"text":"政府應該負擔提高到六成 農民四成是最低標準不要說這個叫多送福利這個是讓同樣的退休標準的目標在農民收入不穩的前提之下先把每個月的壓力降到到他們扛得住的階段第二個對45歲以下的青農要不一樣的加碼也就是說6比4如果是40歲以下的青農那你可能就要提高囉"},{"start":472.762,"end":495.389,"text":"可能是6乘5喔 或者是6乘5比3乘5喔這才是對40歲以下的青農他願意30歲就投入 35歲就投入 到65歲他看得到未來啊所以你也口頭講 青農前期的投資大家庭負擔重實際上去要叫他跟一般農民只有6比4 政府6 農民4我認為這個應該還要再提高"},{"start":497.009,"end":523.216,"text":"所以如果真的把青農當作重點產業投資你看到富國神山怎麼在投資人才怎麼在保護人才你就來把青農當作我們這個產業的富國神山在補助重點投資的人才青農啊所以呢政府的你要讓願意早點進場的人看到退休賬戶長成什麼樣子而不是只聽到有就好啦能提多少算多少"},{"start":524.301,"end":552.814,"text":"再來你們說農業部的財政疑慮根本就是謬論你以每月提撥2840元政府負擔60%2840乘以60%每個月你們政府每個人每人每月提才繳1704本席還很認真的看你這個級距到底有沒有很高啊結果你在農保生育商帳農職災農業保險上為單一農民付出的成本差不多啊"},{"start":553.954,"end":579.729,"text":"我怎麼管根本也不是什麼天文數字差別在於這筆錢是帳上看得到的退休金他不是一次性的津貼部長要搞清楚啊所以今天我自問兩個是非題第一個你行政院要修法如果你今天在修法修進來版本叫做1比1政府1我農民1我告訴你不用拿進來你就不要拿進來了"},{"start":581.189,"end":598.06,"text":"不要來這邊製造我們大家草野一起難得的有共識全力拋紅你農業部這個就是唯一藍綠所有草野有共識不是草野是所有各黨派有共識的你如果還是一筆難清你不要拿進來"},{"start":598.9,"end":624.421,"text":"你至少要調到6比4嘛我們委員的版本是政府要6那個農民的部分是4你好歹也講一個5比5不要再說1比不是5比5就是至少你要講一個有增加的版本嘛要把你送起來幹嘛所以這第一個你要很明確的回答本席第二個40歲以下的青農設計不同於一般農民的加碼比例那你怎麼看好回答謝謝"},{"start":626.305,"end":645.78,"text":"謝謝委員我剛才其實在報告已經說了我們農業部支持40跟60這樣比例在保障保障不便的情況之下政府多負擔一點就是政府撥大概60農民負擔40這樣的方式而且我們用這種方式送到行政院也經過行政院院長同意只是"},{"start":647.02,"end":669.696,"text":"差在還沒進到院會 進到院會以後就會送到立委院那非常好你現在很明確的講行政院版本是支持立法院的版本政府勞退在退 儲金的部分你願意是政府是6民眾是 民眾是負擔4確定是這樣嗎 行政院好 保障不變的部分第二個部分就是40歲以下的部分"},{"start":670.436,"end":686.049,"text":"我們會來設計另外一個就是說他參加農退除菌以後我們的其他的補助的方案可以做一些比例的提高這個會比他因為他初期在從事農業的時候需要一些資金需要一些農機具所以你是願意放在補助提高在40歲以下而不願意放到說你的補助相關的補助項目只要你願意參加農退的我都所有的補助都可以加我們可以設計不同的階梯的方式"},{"start":698.499,"end":701.614,"text":"不願意在40歲下親農在政府的比例再提高"},{"start":703.12,"end":732.179,"text":"我想這個必須要去討論喔因為整個的一個退休的一個年限的部分如果你送進來的青龍沒有沒有提高比例我本期我是不會接受的因為你沒有把他你從20讓你講好啦你30歲啦你不要說20歲啦你30歲到65歲35年欸你退休你要想到當時的通貨膨脹欸30一個月4萬5那時候的通貨膨脹不過是現在可能才3萬2萬3萬多的水準欸"},{"start":733.34,"end":761.885,"text":"所以你現在沒有提高 你青榮怎麼會加入而且你還要讓他 我本身也很在意喔你的條款沒有補助的沒有針對40歲以下的青榮你沒有政府比例增加你沒有在補助商當中的掛鉤以及彈性的機制讓他退場你沒有彈性機制讓他退場 那這個是真的就是我一投進去 我就鎖在裡面那不可能有增加讓他進入到融退的一個誘因嘛"},{"start":762.685,"end":788.492,"text":"所以部長你願意再試試一下再評估一下嗎我想我們可以來評估絕對可以來評估用一個最好的方式能夠讓我們的年輕人從容比較穩定這個是我想我們應該要去做的啦好那這邊補助掛鉤彈性退場這是部長你這邊的承諾補助掛鉤彈性退場是讓我彈性退場這個東西都我們都還要討論不是我在這邊承諾喔沒有承諾所以好好那這種東西你也不要送進來了"},{"start":789.632,"end":804.558,"text":"你不要送錢 因為你現在就是 我一加入融退我市場變化太大了我的榮民的不穩 你剛才講 我剛才講到第一頁 再看一次你的第一頁是什麼 我的第一頁是什麼直接講明的 你的放到第一頁"},{"start":806.994,"end":834.92,"text":"這是你們講的 我一字不漏再說一次收入不穩 經濟負擔重不確定撐不撐到65歲你沒有讓他在65歲之前有一個可以退的機制你若辦得好 這個農業收入增加然後這個儲金再加上他的勞保或者是他的這個榮保讓他覺得一個月可以到這個4萬4萬5你沒有讓他看到這個未來 他為什麼要投入啊"},{"start":835.66,"end":851.528,"text":"那如果你看到他未來你那個中途的結算機制就是也不會用到這個農退途徑是在65歲以後才去設計的所以說他如果65歲之前他如果提前離開了職場但是65歲他照樣可以領啊"},{"start":853.946,"end":879.647,"text":"65歲 對 可是那中間他已經離開了啊那怎麼辦但是65歲以後他到65歲他就可以開始領了啊對 那我如果說我30歲我投入我45歲離開那我的保險還是掛在我又是掛在這個融退喔那我可不可以參加其他的一個保險機制可以啊 可以啊喔 好 來來來這可以啊好 來來 那我們來講清楚那我現在在我直接跳到這一個好了 來跳到"},{"start":881.806,"end":902.044,"text":"我現在是榮保 榮保親農的黑洞 這句話榮保親農的黑洞 同樣在田裡流汗 誰被排除在制度內我們還有一個更大的破洞 也就是你刻意沒碰的 現在有一群人白天在田裡工作保的卻是榮保勞退 保的是勞保勞退你估算自耕農76.1萬 我大概有9.5萬是電農"},{"start":905.347,"end":909.008,"text":"再加上實質務農長期投保勞保的親農有4萬所以也就是說農村的真正勞動力自電農再加上農保的親農這樣總共有13.5萬這個部分您也提過好我右邊的這個叫做農傳媒你們說過部長你也提過要思考農保農退雙軌制"},{"start":934.217,"end":952.469,"text":"讓頭保 農保的自營農民在上位勤領他說他現在還在叫農保的人他也可以他現在在已經還有領有勞保的人他也可以來參加農退這句話講得很好聽但是目前為止你有沒有規劃我們已經有規劃了有規劃 時針標是什麼"},{"start":955.091,"end":974.656,"text":"我們有規劃就是讓從事勞保的人他投勞保但是他實際從事農業的部分我們可以讓他取得農退儲軍的一個資格好 那這有在你的行政院版本裡面通過嗎對 我們已經跟行政院報告過這個部分我們也有建議了"},{"start":975.359,"end":1002.897,"text":"好那這邊我具體也提到就是說那你們要盤點勞保勞退裡面實際從農的人數投保薪資及育孤老年給付不要再用育孤有多少人的這種模糊說法勞工勞動部有來謝謝喔謝謝不好意思主席你的勞動部不要這次在清查的時候你說那個是假農民假勞工假勞工中農民那你就是把他註記起來就好你要不要不要給我處罰農業部在哪勞動部在哪裡"},{"start":1006.085,"end":1031.931,"text":"請勞動部如果你真的本席所講的這個數字4萬多的這個投保勞保而實質務農的有4萬多人然後第二個你們的這個轉軌設計轉軌設計的這個方案也希望你們盡快的送到你的法災修是一回事但是你的專案轉軌的部分你要"},{"start":1033.091,"end":1060.655,"text":"趕快的提到本院來然後如何讓這件事情當作勞退的減壓而不新的負擔所以今天我只問一句話同樣在田裡流汗有人在老榮津貼家榮退雙重寶藏有人老了只剩下勞退這一條路甚至一條路都沒有因為自耕農跟電農是沒有雇主的這不是榮民的選擇是制度的選擇如果在行政院版本當中你沒有把這一批人所謂的"},{"start":1062.136,"end":1071.468,"text":"農 勞保 青農這個部分 資格人工電能沒有雇主的部分你沒有在修法當中放入的話那這一群人就是被你農業部放生了好 謝謝 時間到了謝謝我們林戴華委員的"}]}},{"id":"166205","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166205","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3433f3219e46f0326995c18a0804ac8782703a5ba45612974fc99ef46c3be2bc15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:26:33 - 09:34:50","影片長度":"00:08:17","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"「重塑大學自治與校園民主—《大學法》修法與高教治理改革之檢討及策進」公聽會（事由：立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-08","start_time":"2025-12-08T09:26:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-08T09:34:50+08:00","duration":497,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0603437500000001,"end":21.344093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.63096875,"end":102.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.27221875000001,"end":140.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.75159375,"end":156.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.54221875000002,"end":175.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.27346875,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.52221875,"end":236.34846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.88846875000002,"end":249.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.96659375000002,"end":250.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.18159375000002,"end":264.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.10346875,"end":265.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.72784375000003,"end":374.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.31409375000004,"end":492.32534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.56971875000005,"end":495.98721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.45,"end":21.147,"text":"感謝召委現場我們有非常多包含公私立大學協進會的理事長還有公私立大學的校長任校長 趙校長還有我們的學生青年代表有非常多位還有我們的工會的代表們大家早安"},{"start":21.967,"end":38.656,"text":"我是立委范芸首先謝謝我們那個召委安排這一場大學法的修法公聽會那我是從上一屆開始就跟我們的很多的團體一起推動大學法的修法"},{"start":39.356,"end":58.918,"text":"上一届我们教育委员的跨党派共识就是要提升学生在校会中的参与权益当时很幸运的当时也得到教育部当时的次长的支持不过很可惜后来因为沟通不足所以上一届并没有办法通过这一届呢"},{"start":59.698,"end":78.96,"text":"就是非常多的委員也非常的關心大學法那我自己也嘗試提出一個比較完整的版本那我的版本那個已經一讀通過那待會兒會印給大家歡迎大家參考那在這個過程中呢我也看到就是其實我們在大學法的改革要推動"},{"start":79.901,"end":101.243,"text":"除了保障師生權益之外學校的行政管理階層也有看到大學法有些不應該管那麼多就是教育部都是依照大學法來跟大學互動有些不需要管的也應該可以放寬當然需要有底線的部分是哪些也需要更多的討論今天"},{"start":103.525,"end":123.364,"text":"除了跟大家讲一下就是之前的努力之外那也要跟大家讲就是2022年当时是有学生全版出教育委员会那2024年那后来我们也纳入了教师方面的观点那最近我所提的版本也有跟多位校长"},{"start":124.185,"end":139.235,"text":"還有大學的校長主管教授學生會團體有多方諮詢希望這個版本真的能夠一起讓大家真正邁入21世紀而且可能要應對的是未來20年的大學狀況為什麼"},{"start":141.556,"end":159.338,"text":"因為從上一次大規模修法到現在2005年到現在真的是20年了所以現場有校長在也有主管在大家可以想像20年後校長不會是現在的校長學生可能那天跟我"},{"start":159.818,"end":175.565,"text":"我的版本有100位學生會長連署當天好幾位一起來感謝他們支持我的三大方向好幾位發言的時候都告訴我們說現在的學生會長告訴我們說2005年是他們出生的那一年"},{"start":176.685,"end":201.659,"text":"也就是說我們現在要修的版本其實為了下一個世代那希望這個角度可以讓大家暫時跳脫自己現在的位置能夠想的是未來的校長未來的學生未來的教師怎麼樣才能夠有一個更開放更能夠保障大家那教學品質跟教育品質的一個"},{"start":202.159,"end":217.905,"text":"大学法我想到时候的Joybook对不对真正实行的时候可能次长也不是我们现在我的意思是说都要好多的年都不是我们现在了那所以我想从这个角度来看就不会纠结在现在大家觉得修法之后"},{"start":218.405,"end":235.983,"text":"是不是师生的监督更多大家担心是不是校务会议会被瘫痪都可以务实地来讨论我相信师生跟行政主管没有人希望修改了之后校务会议瘫痪然后大学不会是一个更好的大学"},{"start":237.184,"end":264.531,"text":"所以我的主張就是開放彈性新高教開放很重要彈性很重要可是它要確保高教的品質比現在更好那就是要讓師生的參與能夠增加所以我的版本三大方向剛剛講了開放彈性新高教強化師生權益還有完善治理跟監督的機制如果待會兒拿不到版本的話也可以跟我辦公室要"},{"start":266.171,"end":280.701,"text":"那也谢谢刚刚讲到的有破百位学生会长联署还有二十多位议长联署相挺要修大学法那什么叫开放弹性新高教其实教育部那个法令真的太久没有改"},{"start":281.521,"end":307.348,"text":"包含我们都知道很多的国家他们现在看到AI时代的来临很多的时候学生未必要完成大学学位他可能在中间对人生的方向有一些迟疑可是他如果休学离开现在都有休学年限的限制我们希望能够给予他一个复学室休满两年"},{"start":307.788,"end":332.693,"text":"那大學現在都在推動終身學習那他今天如果是輔大畢業或者是就是正大畢業正大修兩年那為什麼已經是終身學習了不能讓他只要拿到副學士的學位終身可以回來完成學位那這樣子就讓學生不需要就是不斷的延長修業的期限或者是他不想要念的時候強迫他回來然後"},{"start":334.733,"end":357.5,"text":"就是浪费了高教的资源跟机会就只是要一张文凭就是混毕业所以我想大学学制的改革也是这一波我们可以讨论的所以我的版本有增加大学治理的弹性包含教育实验单位行政主管的资格专业发展制度的部分还有毕业学分跟学期周数"},{"start":358.801,"end":374.02,"text":"應該由大學制定這一點教育部應該都不敢放寬可是你可以看到不管是美國 澳洲 德國沒有一個國家的大學畢業學分跟週數沒有一點彈性的我想這部分當然"},{"start":375.442,"end":395.409,"text":"如何增订公司校合并的弹性让它有更多的诱因又能保障师生的权益也是我的版本重视的最后提升高等教育的资源应该是我做一个关心高教的我还是觉得我们目前给高等教育的资源不够多这是可以努力的"},{"start":395.789,"end":413.127,"text":"强化师生的权益这上一届我们其实就讨论过了今天就不再讲我的部分比较特别的是针对学生会有个学生会专章我想这部分学生会我们如果跟世界百大比的话台湾学生会拥有的权益真的是少得可怜"},{"start":413.487,"end":437.524,"text":"所以不要說學生不關心學生自治是因為目前的學生會還是在權益上像一個家家酒他的參與並沒有辦法改善他自身的情況我們從師大的強迫抽血案學生會長一直站出來可是卻不到學校的校方的重視你可以看到學生權益在台灣真的需要更多的保障"},{"start":438.404,"end":456.216,"text":"使如何完善校长领选强化公正第三方的监督资讯公开这个都是也谢谢上周教育部的回复对修法持一个开放的态度我也会持续跟各界沟通也希望教育部能够尽快提出教育部的版本"},{"start":456.556,"end":472.328,"text":"那儘速一起修法回應各界的期待再一次已經20年沒有修了謝謝朝委我們現在是為了未來的20年下一個世代都不會是我們現場的這些人那麼如何能夠讓高教有更好的品質"},{"start":473.089,"end":492.101,"text":"要不然大家在國教的時候這麼的努力家長這麼的關心進入高教之後再也沒有人關心公私立大學的品質非常的可惜因為那是這些成年人他們都是有公民的權利可以公投了寶貴的青春那要給他怎麼樣一個值得的教育以上 謝謝好 謝謝范雲委員"}]}},{"id":"166204","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166204","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b36039eea30863e06bb5dd3a7969bdec962703a5ba456129743e3ed5aee600c39c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"09:21:04 - 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謝謝好 感謝"}]}},{"id":"166203","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166203","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b31c707150a70d99d4b5dd3a7969bdec962703a5ba456129743e3ed5aee600c39c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:16:34 - 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各位委員 還有各位官員們 大家好今天非常感謝洪孟凱召委排審衛星廣播電視法的修正草案我們知道在現今的網路還有廣電媒體百花齊放的今天我們重新檢討對於"},{"start":24.789,"end":51.283,"text":"傳統的衛星電視的管制密度那麼過去我們其實對於廣電業者不管是衛廣 無廣 有廣的這個業者都是像是在管教乖寶寶 乖學生一樣的採取比較高密度的監理但是呢在數位匯流的浪潮底下這種思維還有必要嗎會不會過於僵化那麼在維護媒體的新聞自由言論自由同時呢為了要"},{"start":53.564,"end":71.85,"text":"健全广电事业的发展我们参考美国国家对于卫广事业普遍采取低密度的建立做法所以本席这次提出了卫星广播电视法的修正草案核心的理念就是要适度的松绑管制"},{"start":72.37,"end":81.173,"text":"提高新聞自由以及電視台衛星頻道業者的權益保障目前衛星廣播電視業者的執照期間是6年期間是每3年辦理評鑑"},{"start":87.555,"end":92.202,"text":"但是在現行的制度底下其實第二次的評鑑常常就是會跟換照審查重疊處理完評鑑之後可能要馬上申請換照造成實務上的困擾所以我的提案就是把現在的執照時間有效的延長一年"},{"start":103.399,"end":130.88,"text":"让凭鉴和换照的时间不再重叠让业者更能够专注于提升节目品质稳定营运那么第二点就是我在这里这次也提出人民依法向政府申请申涉变更的登记那政府依法审查的时间必须要明定清楚那由于目前审查期间没有时间的限制所以只能让申请业者默默的等待"},{"start":131.32,"end":146.017,"text":"那因此为了避免申请案的审理期间长期处于未定的状态就悬而未决那么第二个也为了避免政府行政怠惰拖延审查的时间影响申请人的权益所以呢本期在这里"},{"start":146.557,"end":162.454,"text":"也提出要明確規範審查期間訂定主管機關審查衛星廣播電視事業的申請案以及營運計畫變更案的期限規定最長就是4到6個月那麼來督促主管機關可以盡速的審理"},{"start":163.971,"end":181.976,"text":"那第三點就是我們也鼓勵優良業者可以有條件的免予評鑑然後進行換照那只要業者在執照有效期間之內如果受罰的次數還有他累積的罰還金額都沒有達到特定的門檻他表現出良好的經營能力"},{"start":182.476,"end":211.216,"text":"就可以免於評鑑那事實上我們現在的設計是三年之內三次以下八十萬以下的罰環就可以自動換照那麼這個就可以免於評鑑那麼如果說是這個在執照有效期間之內有累積六次以下的就六次以內的處罰然後五百萬以內的罰環的話那麼就可以自動的換照那麼所以呢我想這是對於表現優良業者的肯定我們簡化"},{"start":212.137,"end":237.022,"text":"繁複的程序來讓大家把時間和資源花在製作更好的節目上面那第四點就是我們也考量到撤照跟不予換照的處分會對於媒體和觀眾的影響非常大所以造成而且造成巨大的損害難以回復所以這次本席也提案修訂未廣業者如果對於廢紙執照或駁回"},{"start":237.882,"end":265.298,"text":"换照的处分不符的话可以提起行政诉讼在法院判决确定之前仍然可以继续营运下去那这项修法除了是为了保障业者的生存权和经营权同时也是为了要保障全国观众收视多元性的权益那除了这四个四大点之外我们还增加了规定要求主管机关要召开的申设凭借换照等等咨询会议的名单和会议记录呢"},{"start":265.638,"end":271.768,"text":"必須要公開來提升行政的透明度讓獨立機關的運作更能夠受到公平"},{"start":273.052,"end":290.858,"text":"我想適度的鬆綁並不等於放任而是對於媒體專業的尊重更是對閱聽人智慧的信任所以我在這裡當然也請各位委員能夠支持這樣的提案那另外本期還有提出一個就是重新再修正衛星廣播電視法第50條主要是連結到黨政軍退出媒體的條款"},{"start":296.4,"end":311.01,"text":"我們知道現在黨政軍退出媒體的條款他主要是為了要維護新聞自由和媒體獨立性而設下重要防線目的就是要求政府跟政黨不得透過任何方式來介入媒體的經營然而現在微信廣播電視法第50條的罰則規定呢"},{"start":313.712,"end":320.177,"text":"竟然不是處罰投資者而是處罰被投資的衛星網部電視業者這樣的法條的設計其實呈現的是荒謬以及不公平的在過去其實衛星電視業者被處罰的案件屢屢都被行政法院撤回所以"},{"start":337.955,"end":359.041,"text":"由此可見微信網部電視法第50條有關於處罰的規定實在是有必要要進行修正那當然修正這樣的條文就可以避免讓業者在不可抗力的因素底下無端成為法規荒謬的犧牲品那麼讓我們一起可以還給媒體一個公平合理的經營環境以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b314a8291a7ba458aeb5dd3a7969bdec969da9d853841b9c5bced9b5e91fca9c545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:56:59 - 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謝謝主席那我們是不是請陳代理主委陳代理主委請"},{"start":10.879,"end":39.059,"text":"好謝謝孟愷主委好我想一直以來我對NCC的要求那就是呢對我們兒少一定要守護還有打擊詐騙那第一個我諮詢了很多次也提案來修法譬如說我們對於這個兒少的一個權益我們的電信管理很重要我還記得我還曾經要求NCC的這個所謂的兒少白皮書一定要"},{"start":39.979,"end":66.283,"text":"趕快出來我知道你們正在努力當中但是我先講譬如說我們三讀通過家中持有兒少性影像的刑責這個是在我們的兒少性剝削防治條例以及刑法的修法我有提案在今年我們還有三讀通過就是要納管二類的電信業者就是電信管理法我為什麼會講這兩件事情因為我們知道"},{"start":67.203,"end":91.728,"text":"像類似創意私房這樣子的侵犯了兒少的這個性影像那剝削了兒少讓這個社會還有呢大眾家長等等都非常的不安那這牽涉到的就是什麼他們的管道流通的通路是來自於二類電信是其中一個流通管道所以呢這個跟NCC非常有這個責任"},{"start":93.749,"end":107.825,"text":"要去防止而且要去能夠管理二類電信業者這是第一個第二個跟這個打擊詐騙有關也是一樣包括我們打詐的專法那我有提案那也三讀通過"},{"start":108.686,"end":125.809,"text":"那我也持續的在監督尤其在專法通過之後到現在那NCC打炸的一個成績單成效到底在哪裡這個呢為什麼我又這麼說因為這牽涉到也是NCC主管的業務二類電信的管理來下一頁"},{"start":126.61,"end":130.334,"text":"我們在2025的6月18號電信管理法三讀確實有納管的二類電信2025的7月2號公佈7月4號生效但是我們有了一個過渡期修法後的一年內要向NCC登記"},{"start":144.13,"end":157.745,"text":"大家都會說我們剛剛提到了不管是要守護兒少或者是要打擊詐騙就是納管二類電信的這個所謂的第一個轉售電話號碼第二個提供上網寬頻服務的業者因為這是"},{"start":159.347,"end":184.846,"text":"這是什麼詐騙訊息資訊的一個流通的大量流通的管道第二個兒童少年的這個性剝削性影像的這些資訊影片影音等等也都經常而且是大量的透過所謂的寬頻服務的業者去轉售去轉播那這個東西我們修法之後我的疑問是就能夠杜絕詐騙就能夠守護兒少嗎"},{"start":187.808,"end":209.17,"text":"因為呢我們NCC在對外的這個說帖裡面跟對媒體宣示對國人說來為了要全面堵炸所以第二類電信納管那我們都支持草野都支持草野都支持但是來下一頁我為什麼會一個問號因為修法之後我們看到"},{"start":210.151,"end":228.509,"text":"上個禮拜還有媒體還有我們台中市警察局查獲詐騙集團勾結二類電信業者行詐而且這一次在台中市發生警察局所查獲的這個二類電信業者跟詐騙集團發花量發了40萬通"},{"start":232.933,"end":253.173,"text":"超過300人受害財損超過新台幣3億那這個詐騙的手法是什麼他利用境外的詐騙機房然後呢我們國內的二類電信業者提供線路訊號落地偽裝成本國式化進行詐騙這個是修法後欸還是這樣子欸主委"},{"start":257.791,"end":270.731,"text":"難怪我會有一個問號我想國人也都這個問號修法之後就能夠杜絕詐騙守護兒少嗎這個例子主委你知道嗎知道 那有沒有進行了解"},{"start":271.554,"end":284.738,"text":"有 這個其實我們都有 先前就已經有提出相關對策那對策是什麼 告訴我們好 那其實剛剛委員提到的他的態樣其實是利用網路電話然後在台灣落地之後又透過這個號碼批發轉售的方式來帶出這個"},{"start":290.141,"end":312.738,"text":"在地端的一些社會號碼那這一塊我們有在處理這個IPPBS設備這一塊我們有要求這個相關的這個海關那邊能夠跟他協作做一些相關貨品列號的管制那未來其實在針對這個化物部分主委你剛剛你那一點再說更清楚一點你的意思是說相關的設備"},{"start":314.917,"end":338.996,"text":"詐騙集團跟二類電信業者他們的這個流通管道的相關的硬體設備你有要求海關要積極的查扣防止進入台灣嗎如果他是屬於電信終端設備要NC真的沒有認真的我們就給他查扣我記得上次我們也有人問你啊海關人懶的那那些平行輸入的自己帶進來的那怎麼懶"},{"start":340.749,"end":363.576,"text":"那這邊就是我們有輔助就是從電信業者端如果他的信務行為是異常的那目前我們也要求電信業者修他的服務契約只要發現這個異常的就根據打造條例修了嗎 你要求他修了已經修了而且所有的電信業者都已經修了行網顧網都修了所以只要他化物異常的業者就可以給他斷話或者相關做一些通報處理其實這一塊我們都持續在處理"},{"start":368.638,"end":391.951,"text":"德斷話只有德不是因沒有強制性嗎有些特殊情況但是通常我們都給他業者通常都把斷了請他回來做KYC如果他不願意回來通常都是涉詐的我們都會請我聽到你這樣的說明的時候我都認為說那你應該還要再跟這些電信業者還要再強硬的溝通那你的修改契約裡面是德"},{"start":392.991,"end":399.596,"text":"因為這個訊誤異常我們跟他是否就是從事詐騙這個等號等過去會有點危險那我們主委NCC這邊是不是可以去進一步的去研析各種樣態然後可以把"},{"start":409.944,"end":430.706,"text":"把每個樣態把它理清楚而且那條列式的讓這些電信業者能夠有強制性的阻絕詐騙的一個態度立場跟方法去做這個是你可以做的啊我們已經做其實有跟業者都討論過那有些太陽業者先把它斷後終止他們部分的服務"},{"start":431.306,"end":454.423,"text":"那他不敢回來 KYC通常都是涉障這邊我們都跟檢警調來合作那甚至於說把這個IPPS所看到撈到的那色化號碼我們都提供給165那邊來處理甚至他就間接透過高檢署給相關的平台數位平台那給他斷掉他因為那個號碼來從事這個申請帳號部分那這邊都有在一些把他的帳號一併都剷除掉"},{"start":458.926,"end":484.043,"text":"這個我知道警政署上次在應該說上個禮拜在內政委員會曾經對於這個防詐 堵詐 打詐有一個專案報告那我在裡面的資料看到確實他有阻斷的門號還有呢停播這個電話通訊等等我相信是跟NCC合作而去要求電信業者但是呢我覺得還不夠因為我看到一個數字遠遠"},{"start":486.204,"end":510.994,"text":"不及國人的認為因為國人認為我們的詐騙太嚴重了所以我還是認為NCC應該再進一步的去跟跨部會合作跟內政部警政署跟其他單位跨部會合作好好的就這個二類電信業者可能在這個詐騙集團裡面扮演的關鍵角色如果我們可以在這裡做斷點"},{"start":512.575,"end":529.19,"text":"那才能夠有效的防止國人被炸是 我們都會持續努力那目前就是透過兩個部會我們把這個涉炸的門號告訴透過檢警調 透過高檢署通告蘇發部所主管的那些平台把他平台上因為那些門號去註冊的那些帳號都砍掉"},{"start":531.411,"end":560.493,"text":"好但是呢你們的效率不夠下一頁為什麼我們二類電信納管從修法到現在那已經半年了以我抓了一下你們的數字修法施行前我曾經質詢過你你告訴我總共盤點手中掌握216家是二類電信業者那呢在當時候4月份的時候你說已登記65家那我們修法6月修法之後到現在"},{"start":561.621,"end":570.568,"text":"才登記75家也就是說在這半年裡面只有增加了10家的業者來登記來納管那還有141家業者呢"},{"start":575.901,"end":592.652,"text":"216是電信法時期的二類二類的它這個大項目下面有包括IASV包括其他的一些語音轉送等等的部分ISV跟這個MVMO我都幫你列出來ISV MVMO等等它目前幾乎都有用"},{"start":594.733,"end":603.535,"text":"有從事的都有來登記了但是其他是二類 二類是個大集合裡頭有ISB有MVMO ISB MVMO都目前都有來登記"},{"start":604.178,"end":624.711,"text":"目前都有來登記那你請會後給我一個完整的來登記的業者名單我們希望呢不能漏網為什麼因為呢到這個一年的過渡期裡面這個過渡期還有半年那這半年裡面到底有沒有業者還沒來登記的那還有在這個過渡期裡面那NCC如何監管這個呢都會"},{"start":625.952,"end":635.995,"text":"直接影響到我剛剛講的守護兒少還有打擊詐騙的成效所以拜託主委會後給我一個詳細的資料好不好 一定要好好的要全部來要求登記納管我們要能夠掌握才能夠有斷點阻詐防止國人被騙守護兒少的權益跟他的身體好不好好我們會繼續努力 謝謝謝謝何清春委員"}]}},{"id":"166212","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166212","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3f4795964a93637ee46ee6dd7c9e9cb52dc54cac4b90edbf5884be6fd1f80153f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:14:58 - 10:24:31","影片長度":"00:09:33","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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請陳部長請部長部長"},{"start":8.326,"end":34.128,"text":"農民是我們國家糧食安全跟農村永續的發展的基礎所以我們也擴大對農民生活上的保障也做了很多的努力包括挖農老農津貼還有現在我們正要修法的農民的退休儲金的部分這就希望說他們有更多更好的保障也是鼓勵我們農民"},{"start":35.81,"end":60.729,"text":"大家都来从事我们农事工作但是这个农民的退休储金它这覆盖率也好大家投保的也比较少这一部分也针对我们今天希望说如何来提高一些诱因鼓励大家来投这个农民的退休储金刚刚听到部长你讲是六四来提拨是不是"},{"start":61.289,"end":74.321,"text":"是 我第一個跟委員說明現在的覆蓋率你這邊計算的可能有點錯誤因為48萬就業人口裡面有非常多的65歲以上不好意思 不是我錯誤是你們給我的資料是這樣子的"},{"start":75.458,"end":88.529,"text":"好 那沒問題 你修正我們現在目前就是因為以勞保來講85萬人然後65歲我們扣掉那現在覆蓋率是多少將近差不多50有到50因為實際65歲以下有真正的從事農業的部分大概是22萬"},{"start":96.96,"end":122.263,"text":"好 那如果付款率有這麼高的話我們也是非常高興我們還是要努力啦還是要努力啦還有努力的空間嘛對 特別是青農的部分比較低青年農民的部分比較低那為什麼青農會比較低你知道這原因嗎因為青年農民本身他剛進入這個職場他的收入不穩定而且他有非常多的貸款所以我們也做過問卷他們覺得說這樣的一個角對他們來講負擔比較大所以我們才會去設計就是說讓他"},{"start":123.224,"end":151.401,"text":"负担少一点政府负担多一点在保障不变的情况之下去做这样的设计这还有另外一个问题那很多人从本来是老保的中年转型到了我们来农民做农业农物的工作所以他不希望浪费这个他们农保的这个年资能够继续的老保的那个年资所以他希望继续有老保那所以老保的人要怎么样去参与我们的"},{"start":152.141,"end":172.492,"text":"農民的這個退休除夕這個方面有沒有辦法雙管齊下我想我們在歷次的跟青農座談裡面也發現到這一點就是說有一些他不願意放棄他勞保資格因為他已經繳了一段時間了但是他又真正的實際從事農業的部分所以這個部分大概有4萬多人所以我們也"},{"start":173.152,"end":190.732,"text":"一直希望說在這個部分設計一個方案讓這些參與勞保的人但是又有實際耕作的農民能夠參加農民退休儲金所以這個部長都有了解所以可以讓他們一起參加其實也不是說他們沒有從事勞保工作"},{"start":191.612,"end":212.527,"text":"劳工的工作他们有两份工作有些工作是一些工作是责任制的所以他可以从事两项的工作所以可以给他们多一点鼓励像我们的农民的退休储蓄就是多一点鼓励保障他们的生活这样子的话他们会更多人来投入我们的农事工作好不好这个也要注意还有一点就是说"},{"start":213.528,"end":231.848,"text":"因为刚刚特别提到有老农年金老农年金的话他们一个月大概可以领八千一百一十块钱那所以他很多人想说我就有这个部分了我就不需要再来投这个老农这个退休除金了所以这一点的话我们要再怎么样去宣传去鼓励他们呢"},{"start":232.366,"end":261.444,"text":"這個就像LEGO在堆疊一樣我們最底層是農民退休儲金然後你如果那個老農津貼然後你如果說現在開始從事農業你有存一點錢的話退休的話所得更有保障這個部分我想我們會更努力的來做一個宣導所以提撥的他們可以領雙重更多對 未來可以領的更多比老農津貼還多就趕快把這個案子定案來我們召委也在排這個案子希望能夠來做審查早日來那個草案修正通過好不好"},{"start":262.344,"end":263.987,"text":"那接下來本席要問的就是廚餘的問題"},{"start":266.961,"end":294.009,"text":"剛剛大家都有提到廚餘的問題那現在最重要廚餘的部分的話現在從2025年到2026年我們循序漸進先讓家戶的家庭的廚餘先來退場然後再事業的廚餘 是不是那剛剛有提到部長有提到說現在補助這個黑毛豬的部分2025年 今年的話一頭是3600元請問明年一頭是多少錢不是"},{"start":299.364,"end":316.452,"text":"轉型的時候我們由廚餘變成飼料的時候我們給他每一頭3600塊大概半年的飼料費另外我給他一些餵食系統因為飼料有另外的餵食系統從30萬到300萬根據他不同的規模因為我的資料裡面有看到說2026年如果說"},{"start":318.493,"end":341.85,"text":"他們在轉型當中 他們一投注之後補助1800塊是不是沒有 那個是明年的1月1號才來舉手說他要轉型的我們就希望說 因為明年1月1號開始你就要徵組嘛你要徵組才能夠高溫徵組對 那你如果說這個時候開始我們就希望說他在年底之前能夠說他願意轉型我們會給他輔導"},{"start":344.071,"end":351.398,"text":"那如果說最慢到明年的1月1號1月1號才決定 才決定的話現在已經12月幾號了到明年的1月1號 你的轉型時間太快了吧你就把3600塊變成1800塊 對"},{"start":359.229,"end":376.975,"text":"因為不是因為這個時間太太急迫性了沒有因為1月1號開始他如果繼續用廚餘他就必須要符合增主設備三個條件所以在那個時間點他要嘛就是飼料要嘛就是廚餘那要廚餘的話他也許可以到年底來申請"},{"start":377.415,"end":404.152,"text":"部長因為你們2027年就全面禁止廚餘對不對所以現在已經12月了到明年2026年不到一個月的時間我認為你們循序漸進裡面要多給他們一點緩衝的時間所以到明年本席的建議啦還是維持一頭豬是3600塊他們一樣是高溫會去珍珠慢慢的循序退場因為這個廚餘部分在我們的家庭廚餘"},{"start":406.246,"end":433.006,"text":"這個大概一個有一個月有1385公噸那置業廚餘的話大概760公噸那這個這樣加起來就2000多公噸你現在的廚餘的話你沒有這個能源化跟這個堆肥化你沒有這個設置的這個設備的話全部丟到焚化爐去焚燒你全部去焚化爐焚燒焚化爐能夠承受嗎這些等等都是問題所以"},{"start":434.827,"end":458.425,"text":"本席在这边建议部长我们一定要完整的因应跟所有的配套我们要把这个所有的升值中心或者是说我们的高速这个堆肥的这个处理中心通通都要把它建制好来才可以承受这个处理的部分好不好我跟委员报告当初在设计就有阶低式的补助最主要就是因为我们"},{"start":459.346,"end":473.117,"text":"一年以後完全禁止了所以這些猶豫期不要太長你如果變成飼料的話我們盡量的去協助你猶豫期不到一個月對啊現在已經12月幾號了沒有所以我們接地市的1月1號明年1月1號以後是1800"},{"start":474.358,"end":498.326,"text":"所以現在我說你的1800太快速了是不是在做研議還有就是廚藝的部分因為主席站起來還有廚藝的部分家庭的廚藝的話是比較多的你可以請他們快點來處理這個清潔隊或者是收這個廚藝的部分能處理但事業廚藝我昨天在碰到餐廳事業廚藝裡面他們就有提到說"},{"start":499.266,"end":513.598,"text":"他們的廚藝現在是有人去跟他收買來運送但是未來的話他們的事業廚藝的話誰去幫他運送 誰去處理這些都增加這個費用啊環境部會負責找那個以種的清潔業者去收"},{"start":519.683,"end":534.68,"text":"這個費用的話是清潔業者環境部補助清潔業者嗎未來是地方政府必須要負責的地方政府是負責的很多餐廳不知道這些也都必須要做宣傳所以整套的過程這個部分環境部他有"},{"start":535.5,"end":555.942,"text":"農業部一定能夠循序漸進的包括就是廚藝的處理跟我們家庭跟我們的事業的廚藝都要看怎麼去處理配套都要完整還有我們的設備也要到位來處理這些廚藝廚藝也可以變成我們的經濟跟環境的這個循環的這個很重要的部分最重要的 拜託"},{"start":557.148,"end":563.13,"text":"黑毛豬的養豬戶穩住他們的生計我們會成立一個輔導團隊不要讓台灣未來都沒有黑毛豬了會 我們會成立一個輔導團隊一起來努力讓這個產業要積極的跟他們溝通好不好會好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17105","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17105","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbac324107c9b9b84ea3e12858f6389dbbb4456b5c46cbb78ce1a47f9d147be5f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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分別擬據動物保護法第25條及第25條之1條文修正草案等4案"},{"start":2028.48,"end":2054.989,"text":"5.本院委員葉元之等17人及台灣民眾黨黨團擬拒動物保護法第25條之二條文修正草案等二案6.本院委員林戴化等21人擬拒動物保護法第14條之一第14條之二及第30條條文修正草案7.本院委員鄭天才等16人擬拒動物保護法第2條及第10條條文修正草案8.本院委員陳廷飛等18人擬拒動物保護法第5條第20條及第25條條文修正草案9.本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬拒"},{"start":2056.409,"end":2079.06,"text":"動物保護法第2條及第5條條文修正草案10.本院委員葉元之等17人委員郭玉璟等20人分別擬具動物保護法增訂第14條之3條文草案等2案11.本院委員葉元之等17人委員吳佩義等16人分別擬具動物保護法第25條條文修正草案等2案12.本院委員游皓等23人擬具動物保護法第25條之1條文修正草案"},{"start":2079.92,"end":2106.67,"text":"13.本院委員吳佩儀等17人拟據《東部保護法》第22條之4條人修正草案14.本院委員戴瑞榮等17人拟據《東部保護法》第2條及第6條之2條人修正草案15.本院委員鄭振田等19人拟據《東部保護法》第32條條人修正草案16.本院委員羅志強等16人拟據《東部保護法》第23條條人修正草案17.本院委員郭玉琴等19人拟據《東部保護法》第25條之2及第33條之2條人修正草案"},{"start":2107.65,"end":2122.594,"text":"18 本院委員邱若驊 等16人 拟據《動物保護法》第25條之2 第33條之2及第33條之3 條文修正查案19 本院委員賴瑞榮 等16人 拟據《動物保護法》第3條及第5條 條文修正查案決議 審查結束 令定期記憶審查 散會 宣讀完畢謝謝 我們繼續進行討論事項 請一併宣讀"},{"start":2131.756,"end":2150.471,"text":"討論事項 審查一 本院委員謝依鳳等16人 委員郭國文等17人 分別擬據 農民退休儲金條例第7條條件修正草案等二案二 本院委員蔡玉等20人 委員陳金飛等19人 分別擬據 農民退休儲金條例第2條第7條條件修正草案等二案 先讀完畢"},{"start":2154.652,"end":2178.722,"text":"我們現在介紹我們的官員不好意思這個禮拜六禮拜天都是我們聲音用量最多所以禮拜一都要讓大家聽我這個難聽的聲音所以我想我就簡單謝謝我們的陳居濟部長謝謝帶領我們所有農業部的同仁們還有國家發展委員會"},{"start":2179.582,"end":2206.238,"text":"我们的人力发展处专门委员沈志勋沈专委还有财政部专委吴秀林吴专委然后劳动部我们的农民保险组我们的组长温秀珠温组长还有主计处我们的公务预算处专门委员吴明修吴专委还有发务部的参事廖江县廖参事谢谢我们谢谢邱颖委员谢谢"},{"start":2208.115,"end":2229.069,"text":"還有我們的劉建國委員謝謝那本日議程所列討論事項為農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案共計有四個委員提案的版本那我們現在請農業部陳俊基部長就委員提案進行報告謝謝"},{"start":2239.037,"end":2259.753,"text":"主席 各位委員今天奉邀參加大院經濟委員會審查農業退休儲金條例第二條及第七條的一個修正草案那以下就本部現在目前執行農民退休儲金的一個現況及針對第二條第七條修正草案本部的一個想法跟看法提供參考農民退休儲金是我們農業"},{"start":2268.721,"end":2291.423,"text":"農民福利制度裡面一個非常重要的一環那過去我們農民大概65歲以後就會領取老農津貼那對於說像其他的老保之類的退休以後並沒有任何其他的保障因此我們在110年的時候就開辦了農民退休一個儲金制度那這個儲金制度最主要是希望說"},{"start":2292.793,"end":2305.92,"text":"我們的農民在65歲退休以後除了老農津貼以外他還能夠針對他就是在退休之前所提領的相關的這些金額然後有得到一個更多的一個保障"},{"start":2306.957,"end":2327.587,"text":"那整個的農民退休儲金的設計是根據農民的提繳比例從1%到10%然後由政府對等的提撥如果說農民提撥10%政府對等提撥10%那相關的這些金額都存在相關的一個個人專戶等到65歲以後就可以能夠提領"},{"start":2329.551,"end":2350.169,"text":"那這一次委員提案修正的重點大概分為兩個部分第一個部分是有關於第二條的部分那第二條的部分相對單純是將我們農業部本身在112年之前的一個機關頭銜行政院農業委員會修正為農業部那第七條的部分大概有四個委員兩種類別"},{"start":2353.692,"end":2361.245,"text":"第一個就是謝鳳委員及郭國文委員所提的修正草案那整個修正草案最主要的精神是"},{"start":2362.125,"end":2387.966,"text":"主管機關依農民提繳的農民退休儲金按月提繳相同的金額修正為按月提繳1.5倍的金額這是謝議委員跟郭委員所提的提案那另外蔡議員跟陳廷輝委員所提的版本是將農民及主管機關共同提繳的金額合併計算為總提繳金額在這個總提繳金額之下由主管機關"},{"start":2389.807,"end":2406.258,"text":"提拨60%然后农民自缴40%的一个比例分担那这样的一个理由最主要是基于其他社会保险制度相关的一个平衡性的状态之下来调整他的一个分担的比例那经本部针对为参加"},{"start":2407.58,"end":2422.902,"text":"曾經做過一些問卷那基本上問卷大部分的農民現在沒有提繳最主要是因為經濟的負擔的關係並不是因為未來能夠領得更多所以我想我們在後續有做了一些"},{"start":2423.743,"end":2442.531,"text":"相關的延期跟財務規劃那第一個部分就是現行的部分是農民10%然後政府10%那這樣的一個情況之下政府支出大概每年31就是31億元然後由謝委員跟郭委員的版本是提高政府提交的比例"},{"start":2443.331,"end":2457.936,"text":"那變成農民提繳10%的時候那政府就提繳15%那換言之整個的最後的一個提繳每個月提繳的總額會增加大概5%那政府的財政支出大概會增加了15.5億"},{"start":2459.597,"end":2488.231,"text":"那蔡委員跟陳委員的版本是調整農民的跟政府負擔的比例那由農民提繳40%然後政府提繳60%所以換句話說在總額5118塊不變的情況之下那農民負擔了2287然後政府負擔了3431那在這樣的一個情況之下保障不變的情況之下那政府的支出大概是增加了6點"},{"start":2488.912,"end":2488.932,"text":"2億元"},{"start":2491.158,"end":2519.498,"text":"那我們如果比照現行的部分看他如果他提繳年資超過30年的時候的一個比較那如果以現行的辦法10%跟10%的話那未來退休的時候可以一個月可以領38479元那相對的以謝委員跟郭委員的版本的話那因為政府提撥的比例增加5%所以未來30年以後他的"},{"start":2519.958,"end":2541.319,"text":"他的每個月可以領取大概45,431元那依蔡委員跟陳委員的版本的部分因為政府提供比例增加那總額不變保障不變也是38,479那最主要的是30年以後那相對的農民是少繳了326,444元"},{"start":2544.582,"end":2557.073,"text":"那整個的一個說明在這邊表可以呈現那在這邊也是跟各委員講就是說以現在的勞工退休同樣是30年的話大概是33095塊他每個月領是33095塊所以我們認為就是說在這樣的一個前提之下如果說"},{"start":2564.859,"end":2583.639,"text":"以谢委员跟郭委员的版本的话未来农民每个月可以领四万五千四百三十一在横平性上面来讲是有相当大的一个差异所以我们在这边还是建议就是用原来的保障的额度去做一些试算所以整个"},{"start":2584.64,"end":2607.183,"text":"四大農民福利體系裡面現在其實已經相當完備了那我們也會積極的去宣導讓更多的年輕人能夠加入農民退休儲金那未來我們也會用更精準的一個行銷的宣導的一個手法那希望說能夠讓更多的農民在退休以後有更多的一個保障那同樣的就是在這次修正的第二條的部分我想"},{"start":2608.089,"end":2622.494,"text":"跟法律都沒有相關的一個競合問題我們都表示尊重那第7條的部分也許等一下可以開放委員來討論那我想我們的立場就是希望保障不變的情況之下讓農民少繳一點 以上報告"},{"start":2625.22,"end":2640.519,"text":"谢谢我们请部长你就坐在原位就好了你不用再回那个对因为部长那个可能腰闪到了所以我们就请你就坐在原位后来接受我们的那个备询然后"},{"start":2641.781,"end":2664.412,"text":"有關本次會議各部會所提的書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那本日議程討論事項合併巡打委員諮詢前依照往例做以下的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員五分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘非本會委員四分鐘"},{"start":2665.152,"end":2673.338,"text":"上午10点30分截止发言登记但是我请教一下我们部长我们现在版本什么时候可以进来"},{"start":2675.214,"end":2698.52,"text":"我跟委員報告現在的版本大概在行政院已經都確認了而且我也跟院長做了報告那現在就是等待行政院的院會通過以後就能夠送到立法院那大概預計什麼時候那因為行政院院會在排案子的時候因為現在有非常多的案子在排然後我們也一直期待就是能夠盡快的把它排入"},{"start":2699.02,"end":2720.573,"text":"部長我們今天會排這個案子就希望我們行政院趕快把我們的版本我想我也會就是跟行政院報告說因為委員版本已經開始在討論了希望都能夠盡快的所以我們今天我們不去做處理我們會再等我們行政院版本進來所以要快否則我就不等你們了解了解謝謝委員謝謝部長我們請第一位請邱什麼"},{"start":2725.612,"end":2744.414,"text":"後來我們楊瓊英委員來囉我們來確定議事錄我們的議事錄有無錯誤會好利有無錯誤沒有沒有我們先做確定我們現在請第一位邱英委員發言謝謝"},{"start":2751.772,"end":2778.25,"text":"謝謝主席部長您可以坐著回答沒關係你再把椅子往前拉至少我可以看得到您的臉對所以你就坐著就好了你就不要一直坐下起來你就一直坐著就好那個椅子可以幫部長把它往上提高一點嗎可以喔好因為這樣子我才能看得到您的臉好謝謝部長您就一直坐著就好了那個麥克風至少有沒有手"},{"start":2779.813,"end":2784.862,"text":"那個手拿的麥克風手持的麥克風給這樣可以"},{"start":2790.882,"end":2813.406,"text":"好部長這個還是要保重齁 這個您是農業最重要的支柱啊還是要請您要多保重來部長我們今天討論一下這個農退儲金制度齁老實講這個從我們當時110年通過開始實施到現在其實在經濟委員會裡頭已經不止一次來請教您喔"},{"start":2814.066,"end":2824.017,"text":"整體的這個農退儲金的覆蓋率到現在其實相對還是偏低這個實際的我們現在的農民有資格的農民大概是22.3萬實際參與的人數大概是9.2萬這個覆蓋率差不多41%"},{"start":2831.144,"end":2859.273,"text":"但是青農的覆蓋率只有24%更低 24%那我們也多次在討論到底為什麼青農不願意加入這個農退儲金是因為誘因不夠嗎還是他們覺得擔心這個資金被卡死還是他認為其實我現在可能還用不到這個還要等到65歲以後那或許他有參加其他的這些儲金制度他有參加其他的保險你們到底有沒有去總"},{"start":2861.775,"end":2875.229,"text":"總納規劃一下或者是說在跟這些青農座談的時候有沒有去了解一下為什麼他們不願意來加入所謂的農退儲金有沒有做過這樣的資料分析我們也做過了一些問卷那特別是青農的部分"},{"start":2875.709,"end":2900.397,"text":"那有兩個最重要的原因第一個原因就是說他們剛剛進到這個農業的職場的時候其實收入不是那麼穩定所以收入不是那麼穩定的時候他們每一個月繳的部分還有貸款的部分所以他們對於那個繳的那個壓力比較大倒是對於後面的這個保障他們比較沒有因為那是幾十年以後的事情他們比較沒有那麼在意"},{"start":2901.258,"end":2916.117,"text":"如果是說他們對於要繳的金額跟誘因所以部長如果是這樣我們今天有幾位委員提出來的版本大概就是我們希望能夠做一些結構上的調整"},{"start":2916.638,"end":2935.653,"text":"比如說農業部採取百分之40或者是農民60或者是農業部60 農民40我們現在是50 50政府就是相對提撥如果把政府提撥的比例再提高一些農民只要負擔40"},{"start":2937.834,"end":2962.247,"text":"這個是不是也是行政院研議的方向我想這個我們有很多的委員大概是這個方向去進行包括這個我們的主席跟蔡議員還有本席我們大概都希望往這個方向去推動行政院到底你們的方向是什麼我跟委員說明就是其實農業部在規劃跟行政院報告的時候也是用這樣的一個方式就是從政府原來跟農民的提撥對等的提撥變成"},{"start":2963.297,"end":2971.765,"text":"政府提拨多一点大概是60左右然后农民大概是40左右让农民在每个月提小的时候减少一些负担保障不便"},{"start":2972.625,"end":2997.993,"text":"好 如果是提交 如果是這個方向基本上本席也會支持啦另外一個就是說有沒有可能把這個有參加農退儲金的這一些列為我們在未來 譬如說他們申請農機啦或者是肥料啦補助上面的加分門檻其實也是創造創造你要申請這一些補助我其實要看你有沒有加入農退儲金"},{"start":2999.033,"end":3020.96,"text":"也是創造一個誘因啦有沒有有沒有想過可以做這樣的 我想謝謝委員的一個建議我覺得是一個很好的方法我們過去很多補助的話沒有做做串聯啦就是我們有一些農業的施政的一些提供一些補助的部分跟可能跟政策可能要對接所以像你剛才講的就是說如果參加農民退休除菌的時候他的"},{"start":3021.58,"end":3038.438,"text":"整個的一個補助的比例或是可以做某個程度的調整的話可以增加他們的優因這個我們會來思考如果是這樣部長我希望行政院這個能夠趕快你們的院會能夠趕快處理因為這件事情我們已經談很久了"},{"start":3039.199,"end":3053.65,"text":"包括立法院要求農業部趕緊送版本出來到現在還卡在行政院裡頭剛剛主席也特別問了到底行政院什麼時候要送今天排審這個案子其實也是要給你們一點壓力如果行政院院版不趕快送上來的話這個"},{"start":3055.491,"end":3077.863,"text":"這個老農今天的討論 退休儲金的討論還是遙遙無期 沒有落實的一天我想這件事情可能要請農業部能夠加緊那我知道我們今天的質詢我想行政院院長應該也聽得到如果可以的話是不是能夠在這個禮拜四排入行政院院會趕緊把行政院的版本送進來讓行政院的版本可以跟委員的版本併案做討論"},{"start":3079.685,"end":3094.399,"text":"部長另外我想要再跟您討論一個老農津貼排富的問題這件事情其實我想相對也是困擾你們這個排富的門檻民國100年的標準到現在已經10多年沒有調整"},{"start":3095.14,"end":3117.31,"text":"那這十多年來這個土地的地價飛漲但是排富的標準一直維持在十幾年前你相對來講對於這些老農來說他的生活環境並沒有改善但是不過因為公告地價的上漲而造成他達到了這個所謂帳面上超過500萬這樣的一個門檻"},{"start":3120.832,"end":3145.323,"text":"這個東西其實對老農來說 他是看得到吃不到啦他不過就是因為土地價值的增值可是他土地沒有賣 他其實也沒有任何收入的增加但是我們的排富條款定在那裡 它是一個死的東西造成很多的農民因為排富條款而沒有辦法領老農津貼所以這個我們也提出了提案的修法我也想知道到底農業部的看法是什麼"},{"start":3145.925,"end":3173.156,"text":"我跟委員報告 事實上在那個老農經貼的部分其實我們跟退休族群都已經跟院長報告過了那特別針對排富的部分因為我們過去在額度上面都會4年跟著CPI調可是其他的完全沒有去調整所以這一次我們在設計上面也會根據那個地價的增幅的部分 CLV的部分因為它從100年到現在已經增加了將近70%大概67%左右"},{"start":3174.697,"end":3199.002,"text":"所以我們會一併做這樣的一個思考然後特別是對農民所擁有的房屋我一直認為農民擁有的房屋是他一輩子努力的他跟其他的民眾是不一樣所以我們在這裡也做了一些放寬跟排富的那個有大幅的一個放寬那這個部分我想我也希望說院裡面能夠盡快的進到院會以後我們就可以送到立法院來"},{"start":3199.778,"end":3217.231,"text":"那這個部分的進度現在在哪裡在你們農業部嗎還是已經送到行政院兩個都已經送到行政院去了但是因為行政院在考量不只是那個老農境電還有其他的社福基金所以這個部分我們盡量說那個老農境電是不是先走啦"},{"start":3217.691,"end":3238.587,"text":"是 因為這個農民其實是最弱勢的很多對農民來講土地價格飆漲公告地價的漲其實不是老農願意的那因為這個漲幅過高漲幅太高了而且我們十幾年沒有調整反而造成它被排富排掉這個對老農來講真是情何以堪所以部長我也期許"},{"start":3240.088,"end":3263.015,"text":"這兩個案子是不是都能夠去加速希望能夠去督促我們的行政院是不是這個禮拜可以趕快送進院會排入行政院院會然後把他送出送到立法院來我會再跟行政院報告看可不可以有沒有辦法爭取到排入院會OK好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝邱瑩委員謝謝部長我們現在請林黛華委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":3301.156,"end":3326.409,"text":"來 我們有請部長這個部長您說您真的是叫農業部的部長嗎本席從你對於您自己的結論這第一點跟第二點叫做自我打臉你說要建構四大農民福利體系完備農民社會經濟安全為農業部重要的施政之一好 等等等最後一句話與其他行業人員退休後享有相當的生活水準保障這是第一點"},{"start":3327.049,"end":3337.761,"text":"第二點你要講提高就是在批評我們立法院的制度我們所有的委員說提高政府的容退租金提交比例將影響職業間的橫貧性且對其他行業的退休制度會有連帶效應"},{"start":3345.937,"end":3371.431,"text":"這個不是自我打臉嗎你不是說要保障我們的農民退休跟其他的農業的其他的行業要有一定的生活水準現在說好了我們提高了政府提高6我們這個降到農民降到4然後你就說喔不對喔一個月農民領到4萬多將近5萬這會影響職業間的和平性這不是自我打臉的一個結論嗎"},{"start":3373.152,"end":3378.617,"text":"第二點你對於我們在來我直接進入到本席的"},{"start":3382.029,"end":3402.323,"text":"這個質詢 青龍不敢提 老龍不講家就是你現在的容退制度的問題你的制度在哪 農民卻不在這裡面這個制度你們很清楚喔我們的農民 農保大概85萬人 未滿65歲的符合容退的 也就現在講儲金的你85萬的農保當中符合容退的才22萬"},{"start":3404.224,"end":3415.316,"text":"好這22萬到今年3月底前曾經參加過融退的也不過11萬也就是22萬有融保的有參加過融退的才11萬然後呢如果我這11萬扣掉現在還真正在繳的"},{"start":3419.36,"end":3437.354,"text":"就9萬扣掉已經65歲正在請領的現在才9萬所以實質覆蓋率這9萬佔22萬大概覆蓋率就四成出頭而已我們立法院預算中心也提醒你囉在去年9月的時候龍退提繳人口只佔我的龍退就是現在講的這個龍退提繳的只佔龍寶未滿"},{"start":3439.776,"end":3456.856,"text":"65歲的被保人的27.63%好 我們念茲在今的輕農20到29歲的青年的提撥率更是在這個農退當中是只有24也就是這個數字告訴我們什麼農民 真正的農民不在這裡面輕農不敢提"},{"start":3457.276,"end":3482.101,"text":"老人老農不想加這就是你們公開承認的現況你們講的很好聽四大保險四大福利三保一金所謂的安全網但是就是要讓什麼農民不再看天吃飯老農放心離農你要親農願意從農攤開來看你這四大福利123農保確實是有提高最後一項有關農退的這部分你們還停在自願參加"},{"start":3484.441,"end":3500.885,"text":"提提越久領越多的口號那真的有真的這樣子吸引人嗎真的有真的提越多領越久自動加入的有增加嗎沒有嘛所以你自己的調查也很清楚啊收入不穩經濟負擔重不確定撐不撐到65歲"},{"start":3506.192,"end":3520.051,"text":"這就是農民的悲哀呀很多早年投保勞保這個我們農民啊他農保的資格是相當高的所以他不得已他只要加入農保我加入農保的時候我又要"},{"start":3521.032,"end":3527.016,"text":"又不敢放棄年金有人還甚至以為農退我加入這個退休儲金我會影響到老農今天這都過去在今年5月的時候本席就提出來的一個現況所以你的制度跟現實生活是對不起來的所以你秦部長你不要再講了"},{"start":3538.864,"end":3554.921,"text":"說我們這個農退這個覆蓋力比勞退的志願提腳還高來安慰自己你總是不能比爛說我們比爛的少一點你應該是將所謂號稱的完整的安全網中間的那一塊破網給它補起來那個破網是什麼"},{"start":3557.944,"end":3576.216,"text":"就是一大堆農民尤其是青農尤其在加保在農保當中實際務農的人他沒有辦法來領你的領你的這個農退儲金啊這才是重點啊你要保證的是真正務農又在農保當中但是他又沒有辦法去"},{"start":3577.116,"end":3604.953,"text":"去加入你的農業這個儲金的部分所以我們立法院提案從1比1到6比4政府要多扛一點所以這邊你的報告就是您的最後一句話農民退休金如果高到每月4萬5萬擔心職業橫貧性所以現階段尚無調整規劃這個很凸顯你你根本就不把農業當作一個產業我們現在在高科技業當中進足的是什麼進足的是那個技術嗎"},{"start":3606.634,"end":3629.701,"text":"進逐的是那個國際競爭那個佈局嗎半導體競爭的就是人才人才人才人才才是讓這個半導體護國神山永續佈局全球讓台灣立於不敗之地的重要的原因人才為什麼那個台積電為什麼那些退休的人才大家一定要挖角會影響整個台積電的營運"},{"start":3631.627,"end":3636.719,"text":"人才才是重點啦 所以今天我要農業你說你要農業的自給力提高你要農業的自給力提高"},{"start":3641.5,"end":3664.18,"text":"從容人口在哪裡老的都一直退了然後年輕的投來進來他看不到65歲你要叫我那個退休的這個儲金要領到65歲才讓我看得到中間在今年5月我就提醒了你的容退當你的同退當中一定要有兩點設計嘛第一個你要跟你的補助瓜公我加入容退的我所有的今天我的"},{"start":3664.56,"end":3684.097,"text":"肥料的補助增加我的人才的補助增加我的我申請的農業機具的補助增加你要有我說我參加農隊我有這些這些保障嘛再來你不要一直逼到65歲啊你中間啊好啊這個因為我的市場變化我實在沒有辦法從農了或者我種種的原因我必須離農了"},{"start":3685.478,"end":3703.066,"text":"我當中我必須我不用撐到六十歲你給我退休的退出融退啊那你政府的部分看是我要百分百還給你但本席主張就還給你這個百分之十就好了也不要說通通都還給你們因為你要補助你要支持我們的農業人才嘛這兩點"},{"start":3705.427,"end":3728.114,"text":"從頭到尾你的今天主席再次的排入就是知道對農民的這個保障不足嘛結果你的結語講了那麼多結語等於叫廢話連篇哪有保障我們農民哪有把農業的人才當作是我們提高農業自給率的重要重中之重沒有啊好所以本席的立場很簡單"},{"start":3729.574,"end":3757.239,"text":"政府應該負擔提高到6成 農民4成是最低標準不要說這個叫多送福利這個是讓同樣的退休標準的目標在農民收入不穩的前提之下先把每個月的壓力降到到他們扛得住的階段第二個對45歲以下的青農要不一樣的加碼也就是說6比4如果是40歲以下的青農那你可能就要提高了喔可能是6乘5喔"},{"start":3758.639,"end":3776.729,"text":"或者是6乘5比3乘5這才是對40歲以下的青農他願意30歲就投入35歲就投入到65歲他看得到未來啊所以你也口頭講青農前期的投資大家庭負擔重實際上去要叫他跟一般農民只有6比4政府6農民4我認為這個應該還要再提高"},{"start":3780.971,"end":3807.174,"text":"所以如果真的把青農當作重點產業投資你看到富國神山怎麼在投資人才怎麼在保護人才你就來把青農當作我們這個產業的富國神山在補助重點投資的人才 青農啊所以政府你要讓願意早點進場的人看到退休賬戶長成什麼樣子而不是只聽到有就好啦 能提多少算多少"},{"start":3808.28,"end":3836.813,"text":"再來你們說農業部的財政疑慮根本就是謬論你以每月提撥2840元政府負擔60%2840乘以60%每個月你們政府每個人每人每月提才繳1704本席還很認真的看你這個級距到底有沒有很高啊結果你在農保生育商帳農職災農業保險上為單一農民付出的成本差不多啊"},{"start":3837.913,"end":3863.705,"text":"我哪有他管根本也不是什麼天文數字差別在於這筆錢是帳上看得到的退休金它不是一次性的津貼部長要搞清楚啊所以今天我自問兩個是非題第一個你行政院要修法如果你今天在修法修進來版本叫做一比一政府一我農民一我告訴你不用拿進來你就不要拿進來了"},{"start":3865.165,"end":3881.495,"text":"不要來這邊製造我們大家草野一起難得的有共識全力拋紅你農業部這個就是唯一藍綠所有草野有共識不是草野是所有各黨派有共識的你如果還是一筆難清你不要拿進來"},{"start":3882.876,"end":3908.377,"text":"你至少要調到6比4嘛我們委員的版本是政府要6那個農民的部分是4你好歹也講一個5比5不要再說1比不是5比5就是至少你要講一個有增加的版本嘛要把你送起來幹嘛所以這第一個你要很明確的回答本席第二個40歲以下的青農設計不同於一般農民的加碼比例那你怎麼看好 回答 謝謝"},{"start":3910.282,"end":3929.743,"text":"謝謝委員我剛才其實在報告已經說了我們農業部支持40跟60這樣比例在保障保障不便的情況之下政府多負擔一點就是政府撥大概60農民負擔40這樣的方式而且我們用這種方式送到行政院也經過行政院院長同意只是"},{"start":3930.979,"end":3946.741,"text":"差在還沒進到院會進到院會以後就會送到立委院那非常好您現在很明確的講行政院版本是支持立法院的版本政府勞退在退除金的部分你願意是政府是6民眾是民眾是負擔4"},{"start":3947.882,"end":3963.878,"text":"確定是這樣嗎 對然後保障不便的部分第二個部分就是40歲以下的親友我們會來設計另外一個就是說他參加農退除菌以後我們的其他的補助的方案可以做一些比例的提高這個會比他因為他"},{"start":3964.719,"end":3985.549,"text":"初期在從事農業的時候需要一些資金需要一些農機具的一些協助所以你是願意放在補助提高在40歲以下而不願意放到說你的補助相關的補助項目只要你願意參加農退的我都所有的補助都可以加我們可以設計不同的階梯的方式所以你不願意在40歲以下輕農在政府的比例再提高"},{"start":3987.079,"end":4007.873,"text":"我想這個必須要去討論喔因為整個的一個退休的年限的部分如果你送進來的親農沒有提高比例我本席我是不會接受的因為你沒有把他你從20讓你講好啦你30歲啦你不要說20歲啦你30歲到65歲35年欸你退休你要想到當時的通貨膨脹欸一個月4萬5那時候的通貨膨脹不過是現在可能才3萬多的水準欸"},{"start":4017.299,"end":4045.844,"text":"所以你現在沒有提高你青榮怎麼會加入而且你還要讓他 我本身也很在意喔你的條款沒有補助的沒有針對40歲以下的青榮你沒有政府比例增加你沒有在補助商當中的掛鉤以及彈性的機制讓他退場你沒有彈性機制讓他退場那這個是真的就是我一投進去我就鎖在裡面那不可能有增加讓他進入到榮退的一個誘因嘛"},{"start":4046.644,"end":4072.471,"text":"所以部長你願意再試試一下再評估一下嗎我想我們可以來評估絕對可以來評估用一個最好的方式能夠讓我們的年輕人從容比較穩定這個是我想我們應該要去做的啦好那這邊補助掛鉤彈性退場這是部長你這邊的承諾補助掛鉤彈性退場是讓我彈性退場這個東西都我們都還要再討論不是我在這邊承諾沒有承諾所以好好那這種東西你也不要送進來了"},{"start":4073.611,"end":4088.537,"text":"你不要送錢 因為你現在就是 我一加入融退我市場變化太大了我的榮民的不穩 你剛才講 我剛才講到第一頁 再看一次你的第一頁是什麼 我的第一頁是什麼直接講明的 你的放到第一頁"},{"start":4090.954,"end":4118.88,"text":"這是你們講的 我一字不漏再說一次收入不穩 經濟負擔重不確定撐不撐到65歲你沒有讓他在65歲之前有一個可以退的機制你若辦得好 這個農業收入增加然後這個儲金再加上他的勞保或者是他的這個榮保讓他覺得一個月可以到這個4萬4萬5你沒有讓他看到這個未來他為什麼要投入啊"},{"start":4119.62,"end":4135.343,"text":"那如果你看到他未來你那個中途的結算機制就是也不會用到這個農退途徑是在65歲以後才去設計的所以說他如果65歲之前他如果提前離開了職場但是65歲他照樣可以領啊"},{"start":4137.904,"end":4163.262,"text":"對 可是那中間他已經離開了啊那怎麼辦但是65歲以後他到65歲他就可以開始領了啊對 那我如果說我30歲我投入我45歲離開那我的保險還是掛在我又是掛在這個融退喔那我可不可以參加其他的一個保險機制可以啊 可以啊喔 好 來來來是可以啊好 來來 那我們來講清楚那我現在在我直接跳到這一個好了來跳到"},{"start":4165.765,"end":4186.003,"text":"我現在是榮保 榮保親農的黑洞 這句話榮保親農的黑洞 同樣在田裡流汗 誰被排除在制度內我們還有一個更大的破洞 也就是你刻意沒碰的現在有一群人白天在田裡工作 保的卻是榮保勞退 保的是勞保勞退你估算自耕農76.1萬 我大概有9.5萬是電農"},{"start":4189.306,"end":4192.968,"text":"再加上實質務農長期投保勞保的親農有4萬所以也就是說農村的真正勞動力自電農再加上農保的親農這樣總共有13.5萬這個部分您也提過好我右邊的這個叫做農傳媒你們說過部長你也提過要思考農保農退雙軌制"},{"start":4219.399,"end":4237.15,"text":"讓頭寶 榮寶的自營農民在上位勤領他說他現在還在叫榮寶的人他也可以他現在在已經還有領有勞寶的人他也可以來參加榮退這句話講得很好聽但是目前為止你有沒有規劃我們已經有規劃了有規劃 失稱標是什麼"},{"start":4239.051,"end":4258.631,"text":"我們有規劃就是讓從事勞保的人他投勞保但是他實際從事農業的部分我們可以讓他取得農退儲金的一個資格好那這有在你的行政院版本裡面通過嗎對 我們已經跟行政院報告過這個部分我們也有建議了"},{"start":4259.318,"end":4287.605,"text":"好那這邊我具體也提到就是說那你們要盤點勞保勞退裡面實際從農的人數投保薪資及育孤老年給付不要再用育孤有多少人的這種模糊說法勞工勞動部有來謝謝喔謝謝不好意思主席你的勞動部不要這次在清查的時候你說那個是假農民假勞工假勞工中農民那你就是把他註記起來就好你要不要不要給我處罰農業部在哪勞動部在哪裡"},{"start":4290.044,"end":4315.89,"text":"請勞動部如果你真的就本席所講的這個數字4萬多的這個投保勞保而實質務農的有4萬多人然後第二個你們的這個轉軌設計轉軌設計的這個方案也希望你們盡快的送到你的法災修是一回事但是你的專案轉軌的部分你要"},{"start":4317.07,"end":4344.625,"text":"趕快的提到本院來然後如何讓這件事情當作勞退的減壓而不新的負擔所以今天我只問一句話同樣在田裡流汗有人在老農津貼家農退雙重寶藏有人老了只剩下農 勞退這一條路甚至一條路都沒有因為自耕農跟電農是沒有雇主的這不是農民的選擇是制度的選擇如果在行政院版本當中你沒有把這一批人所謂的農"},{"start":4346.106,"end":4360.909,"text":"勞保 親農這個部分 資格人工電能沒有雇主的部分你沒有在修法當中放入的話 那這一群人就是被你農業部放生了好 謝謝 時間到了謝謝我們林戴華委員的諮詢 謝謝部長 謝謝我們請那個戴華麻煩一下我們下一位請陳寧菲委員諮詢"},{"start":4380.173,"end":4405.672,"text":"谢谢主席我们请部长就请陈部长谢谢部长我想今天不论是劳退除金或是我们的劳农津贴其实我们已经讲很久了从去年一直催催催催到今天那为什么在你们院板还没送进来我要先拍我们要逼着你啊"},{"start":4406.923,"end":4419.391,"text":"明明你在多久以前就已經說你們已經送到院會了我們很早就送到行政院去了那為什麼一直沒出我們的行政院送到立法院"},{"start":4420.885,"end":4443.806,"text":"我覺得我們現在的執政會有一個盲點我們明明要做的 我們都不阿沙裡去做然後每一次都讓我們的農民還有相關的一些權利者等又等 忘又忘然後三催四起 我們的版本才出來"},{"start":4445.067,"end":4471.294,"text":"這是不對的我們這個早就定調啦我們農民退休儲金本來我們就要幫忙我們能夠更多的農民加入我們這個行列當中就是要有誘因嘛當時候我們蔡英文總統跟我們農業部去推這個農民儲金退休儲金就是這個方向嘛可是因為誘因不足"},{"start":4472.154,"end":4488.251,"text":"所以加入這個退休儲金條例的制度的人非常的少所以我們才去檢討要怎麼樣能夠加強誘因這個去年就有共識啦是那為什麼拖到現在還沒出來"},{"start":4489.332,"end":4514.788,"text":"所以部長我覺得剛剛如果版本有出來其實就會解釋到大家很多的疑慮包括說我們到底現在政府要提撥多少現在是6比4嘛大概我們的方向是政府60%我們提出來的版本跟立法院報告的版本是60比40對嘛 60比40政府負擔多一點"},{"start":4515.188,"end":4540.086,"text":"对啊 政府负担多一点不再是像过去一比一嘛而且你今天出来之后我有详细听你刚刚的报告也就是说我们同样有这样的一个保障然后我们农民少缴少缴一点 对对 少缴可是他得到的跟现在他们所得到的保障是一样的对 保障一样少缴一点对嘛"},{"start":4540.686,"end":4565.483,"text":"所以如果我们版本早一点出来就没有这么多的疑虑然后还有我们一直在强调的我们怎么让青农愿意有幼婴可以加入到我们这个制度里面就是我们把老保跟农保可能有用了一个不一样的制度来做调和也就是说当他自己在职场当中"},{"start":4566.283,"end":4588.539,"text":"他想要回到我們農民制度的當中他可以把勞保跟農保能做一個共同計算然後如果這當中他萬一自己又想回到到了農保之後又想回到勞工職場他又可以回到勞保這個調和板我們到底現在是怎麼做"},{"start":4589.654,"end":4609.034,"text":"我也跟委員報告除了剛才所提到的6比4以外我們針對這些自營的這些參加勞保的這些工作者他實際是從事那個農業的部分那這個部分我們也提出了相關的方案就是同意讓他加入農退贖金雖然說他沒有農保他只有勞保"},{"start":4609.794,"end":4632.41,"text":"那过去不行现在我们希望说开这条路让他能够从事而且这部分的人也不少而且是相关大概是三十几岁的那些主力非常多就是我们的青龙这就是我们的青龙所以在这个我们政府的这个政策你要很清楚讲给大家听"},{"start":4633.511,"end":4656.531,"text":"讓我們的青農認為說我本身現在有勞保制度我想用的是勞保可是我現在一樣可以進到當我也是從事農民的相關作業我是可以加入我們的這個退休儲金對不對這也是我們在歷史跟青農座談的時候他們提出來的一個建議所以我們也把它"},{"start":4657.091,"end":4685.579,"text":"也把它設計了一個方法大概大概有4萬多人這4萬多人應該可以讓他加入我們的農退儲金那一次座談之後我們跟青農提到這一點其實青農都很接受他覺得這樣對他們來講是有另外一個保障是也不會是說我現在從事農保然後我要加入了我現在從事勞保我要加入我們農業的相關這些退休儲金是沒有辦法的"},{"start":4686.539,"end":4706.112,"text":"如果有調和之後他們又多了一個選擇是他們更容易把這樣的一個銜接做好所以這個很重要所以為什麼我說在這一次我們要逼著我們行政院趕快把版本送出來就是這個原因了解所以部長"},{"start":4707.333,"end":4716.481,"text":"我今天不會排審本來我要排審等待你們進來但是你們沒有所以我今天不會排審等到你願凡進來我12月22號繼續排審"},{"start":4721.696,"end":4737.493,"text":"两个礼拜的时间够了我想我会跟行政院尽量的沟通看看可不可以尽早的进到院会因为版本已经都没有问题了是他什么时候排进院会只要他这个礼拜排进院会那基本上我们下个礼拜我们都不复议"},{"start":4738.634,"end":4762.328,"text":"這個沒有人會提富裕很快就進到12月22號納入我們這一次的討論12月22號部長我先跟你提醒然後再來有一點也就是我們老農津貼的排富這個也是一樣我們從過去一直提一直提我們已經太久沒處理了多久了"},{"start":4763.786,"end":4790.938,"text":"我们老农今年的牌付相关的从100年开始都没有调我们只调额度额度4年调一次对嘛以我们的整个调整用CBI的部分去做调整嘛对不对可是你知道吗很多人都不知道呢我觉得你们没有去做宣传很多人都说为什么我们老农的福利今天并没有调整有啊"},{"start":4792.318,"end":4820.877,"text":"它是每年它是四年一次依照我們的CPI去做調整對不對所以你這個要對外講到最近還有農民來跟我們說我們老農好像是三等國民為什麼我們都沒有增加我們的津貼有啊之前我們修過一次法了嘛就每四年調整一次那是不是四年太久了"},{"start":4822.335,"end":4844.261,"text":"我們是不是要再從這個四年再去做思考我覺得應該是要做這樣子我們現在已經調整了可是農民的感覺還是無感所以就表示這四年是太久了所以我們是不是應該再把這四年的一個檢討期再縮短這個拜託我們的部長"},{"start":4844.861,"end":4871.023,"text":"再思考一下我跟委員報告我們到立法院到行政院的版本裡面也考慮到這一點過去四年調一次那如果這幾年在這個之間如果那個CPI變動很大的時候等四年太久了所以我們有設計在中間大概兩年的時候它超過CPI超過某個門檻就啟動這個調整但是四年還是不變那第二個部分是排富的部分就像委員所說的排富的部分"},{"start":4871.683,"end":4888.611,"text":"根据那个COV就是地价的那个方公告土地限值的部分我们过去从100年到现在已经累积了大概百分之六十几快70了所以我们也一并会调整牌付的部分跟个人所得的部分都会一并来调整那这个就什么时候送进来"},{"start":4888.991,"end":4918.431,"text":"我們同樣的也是在行政院都在行政院那因為老農福利津貼是由衛福部是由這個衛環委員會做主審所以這個部分我們希望這個部分應該要同步送進來我跟委員報告就是行政院當初在考量這個的時候就是因為考到其他的八大社福但是我們也一直強調可不可以讓老農津貼先走"},{"start":4919.191,"end":4934.151,"text":"因为鸟笼今天太久没调整了太久没调整所以其实我们都有提版本从我们这个CPI是不是要调整机制对这个希望CPI一年或"},{"start":4934.671,"end":4960.114,"text":"平均成长率超过3%的时候就要做调整这是停飞的提案嘛就是说在调整期制当中虽然现在四年可是太久了人民无感所以我们要求一年或一次在CPI平均成长率超过3%你就要调整还有我们排富的条款就是农业所得以外的所得总额超过60万"},{"start":4961.215,"end":4988.705,"text":"就要去做這個處理還有個人所有土地及房屋價值900萬還有沒有農舍者個人所有唯一且有用於居住的房屋可額外扣除700萬這是停飛的提案所以我們拜託我們的行政院版本要符合民意要進帥提出這個部分再拜託部長會 我們會來努力好 謝謝"},{"start":5001.253,"end":5029.137,"text":"我們現在請鄭天才委員質詢主席部長已經上來了謝謝部長好今天這個審查我們農民退休處境條例"},{"start":5030.502,"end":5049.159,"text":"這個在我們農業部的一個報告裡面還特別提到擴大農業保險讓農民不再看天吃飯這樣的一個建立農民退休儲金事實上"},{"start":5050.793,"end":5076.733,"text":"如果我們從這幾年雖然農民退休除菌已經開始失事了但是農民還是要看天吃飯從相關的丹納斯颱風到花架沙尤其是馬太安溪淹涉浮潰壩一流"},{"start":5077.833,"end":5102.818,"text":"造成光復鄉鳳林鎮還有這個望榮鄉這麼大的一個損害這個都是除了家戶之外的農民也做了很大的損害所以還是要看天吃飯那我們看今天的農民退休儲金條例大家都很關心農業部"},{"start":5105.334,"end":5132.458,"text":"這個已經擬了這個農民退休儲金條例相關的條文包括第7條的修正送到行政院請問一下這個部長什麼時候送到行政院的其實在去年的時候就不斷的在院裡面討論也跟院長報告我至少跟院長報告了三次然後最後一個定案的版本是在今年的8月的時候送到"},{"start":5133.777,"end":5145.101,"text":"送到行政院去今年8月送到行政院所以之前是內部溝通不是不斷的因為有一些內容不斷的討論不斷的討論對這個事實上是要跟相關的部會然後這個政務委員"},{"start":5156.925,"end":5176.961,"text":"對 我也跟委員報告其實院長蠻重視這一塊的所以我們當初的很多設計院長都覺得說都應該再放寬所以很多東西包括農民退休儲金或者是老農津貼的時候所以我們在設計這個東西的時候其實已經考慮到農民的一些因素"},{"start":5177.922,"end":5203.886,"text":"很多事一定要强化有的法律还真的是要修正甚至法律名称都应该要改现在还有你的法律跟你主管业务有关的还写暂行条例知道吗对嘛已经几十年还暂行条例对不对所以这个部分都要改了所以这个部分要去继续加油"},{"start":5204.997,"end":5207.224,"text":"好我们看这个这个上次"},{"start":5208.74,"end":5223.348,"text":"我也在跟這個農業部這邊請農業部來去加強先導那有關原住民農民參加農退儲金的在112年是5.7%的經過你們的加強先導之後這個有提高了現在有8%這個是在今年4月的一個數字"},{"start":5238.235,"end":5262.978,"text":"雖然是這樣有提高了但是比例還是相當的需要加強所以還是要請農業部這邊透過農會的系統我想跟委員報告我們後續會跟原民會一起來去勾結針對原民參加農保的部分這樣的話比較能夠精準的去做一些宣導"},{"start":5264.107,"end":5285.083,"text":"好 談到這個部分因為剛才也提到了這個花蓮光復這次馬太安溪淹社府潰壩一流的這些當然這個都是農田不限於原住民非原住民更多更多所以這個農民"},{"start":5286.229,"end":5313.42,"text":"退休儲金他本來有繳他是不是還有能力繼續繳這個部分你也請這個農業部能夠並以去了解去協助因為他們的農保已經我們補助他六個月職債保險也是一樣就是他六個月可以免繳那個農保的部分我知道我剛剛是講那個退休儲金的部分看怎麼樣有怎麼樣協助當然很重要的就是你們"},{"start":5314.949,"end":5338.133,"text":"接下來的這些你看這個是房子旁邊的農田佛祖街附近的都這麼高一直到現在現在還這麼高所以這個部分讓農民如何去耕種沒有辦法耕種所以這個部分要去"},{"start":5339.813,"end":5347.299,"text":"什麼時候要把它清除啊那個部長我跟委員報告現在被淹的大概有7我沒有記錯的話大概774公頃"},{"start":5349.98,"end":5378.048,"text":"那774公頃鳳林的部分有一部分然後光復有一部分然後真正的重災區就是土煙超過50公分以上的那我們有一部分可能就是直接看看有沒有醫院就是做照林的方式然後50公分以下的直接翻耕然後我們有個輔導團會去協助他轉做一些其他的作物部長這個當然是要那個方向是要進行"},{"start":5379.434,"end":5407.424,"text":"我是說只有政府機關才有辦法挖走要把這個土挖走啊這個我來讓部長回憶一下紀連城總協調官 政務委員在10月20號開過協調會特別提到這個農地的垃圾的清潤還有農地土砂的處理"},{"start":5408.605,"end":5432.554,"text":"都是要由農業部來去處理這個要進行我們已經在進行農地的垃圾清運時序在做農地土砂的處理的部分剛才說的就是50公分以下的我們現在做翻耕翻耕我們已經有一個輔導團去協助說翻耕以後是不是要做一些土壤改良這個已經在做了比較重災的就是50公分以上大概218公頃"},{"start":5433.934,"end":5460.518,"text":"那這218公頃的話因為它腹土太高了然後看看有沒有辦法農地重劃那這個我們也已經發了問卷部長你剛剛都講過了重複了對我們都做問卷先解決這個好不好先解決這個要不要先把它搬走啊沒有這個我跟委員報告這個土完全不可能全部搬走啦因為全部搬走至少五年而且搬了以後不是部長你自己看嘛它那麼高啊"},{"start":5461.66,"end":5480.419,"text":"對 所以我們才會說不同的深度的時候我們有不同的處理的方法那有些地方可以農地重劃農地重劃的時候我們也問了開始做問卷如果願意農地重劃的話這個都可以打平就是不挖但是它土地的那個土砂的高度會變高"},{"start":5482.677,"end":5505.152,"text":"好 這個部分 因為時間的關係再請你們負責業務的我想我們的進度隨時跟委員報告因為我們一直不斷的跟居民做溝通你們這個是農田水利署嗎"},{"start":5506.324,"end":5521.316,"text":"我們有一個團隊然後這個屠殺的部分是農田水利署就請你們那個團隊跟我討論一下好謝謝謝謝 謝謝我們鄭天才委員的質詢我們請鄭正前委員 謝謝"},{"start":5534.763,"end":5560.322,"text":"謝謝主席我想請農業部陳部長部長好部長好也謝謝主席今天特別安排了農民退休儲金條例的一個修法那我在想說因為我們一定是希望能夠完善整個台灣的一個農業的一個大環境所以事實上我們在上個會期的時候其實也針對農民退休儲金的部分有過一個討論那我在想說因為現在就是農民就是來"},{"start":5561.229,"end":5577.011,"text":"提繳這樣子的一個農民退休儲金的一個比例不夠高我們希望能夠提高所以也希望說能夠那個提繳的一個比例能夠比方說用現在1比1的方式變成比方說40 60的方式"},{"start":5577.532,"end":5591.628,"text":"本席也參與這樣一個連署那重點就是我們希望能夠讓整個覆蓋率能夠提高針對這部分可不可以請部長表示一下我們如果從50 50提高到40 60的部分您是不是支持"},{"start":5592.689,"end":5615.822,"text":"我跟你們報告現在委員的版本大概有兩種一種就是說總額提高就是1比1變成1比1.5那另外一個方式是保障不變然後政府出多一點然後農民出少一點我們農業部的立場是希望說保障不變然後農民少出一點政府多出一點就是6比4的方式因為現在目前"},{"start":5616.542,"end":5639.486,"text":"我們也問過問卷了以後就是農民現在初期經營不確定性很高所以角度少一點的話對他們來講是有利的所以說目前比方說部長這邊或院門這邊其實是用四十六十的方式六四的部分來做那個方案規劃對OK那我想說這部分都沒問題我們只要能夠提高整個一個覆蓋率來說的時候我覺得就是值得支持的一個方向"},{"start":5640.166,"end":5664.121,"text":"那我今天想特別跟部長這邊請教其實有關於智慧農業的一個部分因為近年來因為整個農村人口的老化跟人力的一個短缺那無人機的一個使用其實變得有一點點的重要那麼我在想說目前整個農業部這邊當然也推出了一個無人機農藥帶噴制度我想部長應該對這部分是熟悉的"},{"start":5664.895,"end":5684.926,"text":"那我想說無人機要合法能夠來做一個帶噴的部分大概需要有幾個條件第一個他必須要是法人然後第二他必須要有雙證書包括民航局的無人機高級專業操作證還有農業部的農藥帶噴技術人員證書我想請教一下部長到目前為止我們農業部這邊所發出來的農藥帶噴人員執照總共有多少量"},{"start":5696.28,"end":5707.329,"text":"這個詳細的數字可能我會有再提供給你應該是六七百人左右OK 不只啦部長我簡單跟你講到113年底的時候大概就有2285人取得農業部的一個農業帶分技術人員證書可是真正同時是法人5606人這個部分"},{"start":5716.375,"end":5722.18,"text":"我要講的狀態是506人他是取得雙證書所以我剛問的是農業部這邊發出來的證照因為他必須取得雙證書然後還必須要有法人登記所以506這個部分其實是符合這三個條件的時候能夠去執行業務的人"},{"start":5736.01,"end":5758.875,"text":"那我想他的比例都是不夠高的所以我們希望說這個部分要怎麼樣子能夠提高這樣子的一個比例讓整個智慧農業的部分尤其無人機的部分能夠真正往下走那我想請教一下部長因為在這個整個在推這樣子的一個無人機的"},{"start":5759.755,"end":5781.947,"text":"那個農業發展這邊的時候針對農藥噴灑無人機的部分有一個很大的狀態是RTK的一個系統那我會請教部長為什麼RTK這個即時動態的定位服務系統它從110年就已經完工了"},{"start":5782.794,"end":5795.512,"text":"就是農業部這邊在推這部已經完工到113年6月份的時候取得了整個資訊平台的認證可是到目前已經超過一年了這個服務還沒有辦法提供出來請問到底是為什麼"},{"start":5796.335,"end":5823.152,"text":"我跟委員報告因為RTK在定位的時候因為它定位到公分級的部分所以相關的就是資安的部分分兩個一個是數位資安一個是國防的安全所以相關的這些所謂的機場附近的怎麼樣的做屏蔽那這個部分我們在今年的10月31號才完成所有的資安場域的認證所謂的資安場域認證就是說哪一些是可以飛的哪一些是不可以飛的"},{"start":5823.993,"end":5851.176,"text":"那这样的话以后用RTK才有用第二个部分就是我们RTK的部分大概在12月17号在今年12月17号会对业者做说明然后说明完了以后我们在说明完了以后应该在明年初就可以开始接受业者的登记所以今年12月17号会开始对业者说明明年1月1号开始能够开始让业者去登记明年初的时候就可以开始明年初大概什么时候"},{"start":5851.696,"end":5867.774,"text":"就是要看業者的說明然後給他們登記然後相關的因為他簽得到很多相關的資訊他們也要接收器理解 那這個東西因為推得有一點久了那我想請教一下我們RTK精準定位服務管理辦法是不是同時會配套出來"},{"start":5869.095,"end":5885.127,"text":"應該相關的遊戲規則會做出來這也是我困擾的因為RTK是當年我在農事所當所長的時候推動的可是發現推了以後它是很精準的定位可是管理單位現在就是經營主體就變得很困擾我"},{"start":5886.068,"end":5911.176,"text":"因為以國家的立場來講其實RTK不只是農業部用其他的無人機都可以使用所以我們也曾經花了一段時間跟內政部去做溝通看有沒有辦法把它整合在一起部長因為這個部分我想說對於整個我們智慧農業的發展其實很重要的一環那我想說無人機這個相關用在農用這邊的時候我覺得肯定也是一個我們要去積極去推的部分"},{"start":5911.616,"end":5940.679,"text":"那這個部分竟然一開始當時是你這邊推的我們就希望能夠盡速把它完善出來好不好讓它真正能夠用我了解然後剛才特別委員所提到的2000多人裡面只有506人是可以其中有一個蠻重要的是我們當初是限定到法人啊是那法人變得有點類似要靠行所以我準備把這個法人這個部分把它解開要把它解開來嗎就是你如果說有創證照然後你有相關的這些機制都符合規定的話其實自然人應該也可以啦"},{"start":5941.48,"end":5960.257,"text":"這個我想我們內部還在討論我希望把它解開那我們希望這部分能夠盡速把它給落實然後能夠推動出來我們希望能夠對整個台灣的一個整體農業有所幫助那我接下來我想問一個狀態就是有關於廚餘的一個問題因為現在我們就確定就是從後年1月1號開始的時候所有的廚餘禁用對不對"},{"start":5963.363,"end":5980.402,"text":"部長那我覺得這個部分我就考慮到一個狀態第一個是當時配合我們農業部的一個政策讓廚餘加熱這個事情配合的一個廠商或者是一些養豬戶對他們來講現在對他們來講會不會是一個處罰"},{"start":5982.825,"end":6002.463,"text":"因為他們當時配合可能也投入了資金去增加一些投資現在政策轉了一個彎之後的時候反而對他們來說造成一些處罰農業部這邊要怎麼去做因為本席其實支持就是除以不要再去養這個政策我某個部分我是支持的可是對於這之前的一個狀態配合這樣的政策的那個"},{"start":6005.945,"end":6026.278,"text":"農戶或者是企業來說我們要怎麼去處理後面的部分我跟委員報告就是說在這一年的過渡期我們提供了轉型非常高的誘因就是每一頭豬我們給他3600然後衛視的設備規模大小從30萬到300萬所以一個大廠的話大概可以得到補助大概將近上千萬以上"},{"start":6026.758,"end":6044.605,"text":"理解這是講說接下來狀態我講說之前比方說配合我們政策去做很多的一個真主設備投入的這些廠商另外共同你講的是共同真主中心共同真主中心我們現在會協助它以後變成廚餘的飼料化的一個工廠或者是能源化的一個工廠"},{"start":6045.345,"end":6064.75,"text":"那這個部分因為現在目前只有全順苗栗的全順一家唯一一家對我們現在會協助他因為未來以後的植物性的料源或者是禽類的下腳料他也可以在那邊做整組變成飼料所以這個部分我想我們也會積極還有我們會引導一些私人公司跟他合作OK"},{"start":6066.05,"end":6083.464,"text":"部長沒有問題 我想說這個部分其實是因為我們政策轉換之後我們勢必要去面對的問題那我現在我想特別去了解一個部分我們農業部跟環境部這邊有沒有去做溝通因為當我們之前的廚餘的時候有相當大的量都用在我們的一個養豬這邊的一個把它給"},{"start":6085.906,"end":6102.946,"text":"使用掉的時候 當我們現在整個政策不行用的時候那按照農業部的一個估計我們每天有將近兩千噸的一個廚餘處理一公噸的廚餘大概需要五千塊到八千塊不等的預算那我們現在這個部分的時候"},{"start":6103.607,"end":6117.101,"text":"我們接下來如果全面禁止廚餘的時候那我們農業部估算大概需要花補助養豬戶多少的飼料錢每年大概要多少然後環境部跟地方政府要花多少錢來處理這個廚餘"},{"start":6119.063,"end":6141.807,"text":"我跟委員報告大概我們做飼料加紗補貼大概一頭是一個月是600塊600塊大概是600塊的部分所以我們從10月開始一直會補助到年底嘛那補助到年底的話完了以後我們的轉型期我們繼續補助6個月就是3600塊讓他能夠順利的去做一個轉型之後呢"},{"start":6142.918,"end":6170.634,"text":"沒有 當你轉型的話你就開始就沒有了嘛那我想說環境部接下來的時候要來怎麼樣處理廚餘這個部分我覺得它很重要那我們也希望農業部跟環境部這邊能夠做很好的溝通然後請部長這邊了解環境部這邊後續的一個做法再跟本辦公室做一個報告我們一直在討論沒有問題這個我想我們也可以請邀請環境部一起跟您到您那邊做一些說明OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":6172.535,"end":6181.38,"text":"好 謝謝鄭振琴委員質詢我們現在請呂玉琳委員質詢部長你不用客氣你不用起起落落對謝謝主席謝謝主席 請陳部長請部長委員好部長"},{"start":6196.312,"end":6222.014,"text":"農民是我們國家糧食安全跟農村永續的發展的基礎所以我們也擴大對農民生活上的保障也做了很多的努力包括挖農老農津貼還有現在我們正要修法的農民的退休儲金的部分這就希望說他們有更多更好的保障也是鼓勵我們農民"},{"start":6223.796,"end":6248.718,"text":"大家都來從事我們農事工作但是農民的退休儲金它這覆蓋率也好大家投保的也比較少這一部分也針對我們今天希望說如何來提高一些誘因鼓勵大家來投農民的退休儲金剛剛聽到部長你講是六四來提撥是不是"},{"start":6249.258,"end":6262.319,"text":"是 我第一個跟委員說明現在的覆蓋率你這邊計算的可能有點錯誤因為48萬就業人口裡面有非常多的65歲以上不好意思 不是我錯誤是你們給我的資料是這樣子的"},{"start":6263.444,"end":6273.294,"text":"好 那沒問題 你修正我們現在目前就是因為以勞保來講85萬人然後65歲我們扣掉那現在覆蓋率是多少將近差不多50有到50因為實際65歲以下有真正的從事農業的部分大概是22萬"},{"start":6284.929,"end":6310.248,"text":"好 那如果覆蓋率有這麼高的話我們也是非常高興我們還是要努力啦還是要努力啦還有努力的空間嘛對 特別是青農的部分比較低青年農民的部分比較低那為什麼青農會比較低你知道這原因嗎因為青年農民本身他剛進入這個職場他的收入不穩定而且他有非常多的貸款所以我們也做過問卷他們覺得說這樣的一個角對他們來講負擔比較大所以我們才會去設計就是說讓他"},{"start":6311.208,"end":6339.388,"text":"负担少一点政府负担多一点在保障不变的情况之下去做这样的设计这还有另外一个问题那很多人从本来是老保的中年转型到了我们来农民做农业农物的工作所以他不希望浪费这个他们农保的这个年资能够继续的老保的那个年资所以他希望继续有老保那所以老保的人要怎么样去参与我们的"},{"start":6340.128,"end":6368.784,"text":"農民的這個退休儲積這個方面有沒有辦法雙管齊下我想我們在歷次的跟青農座談裡面也發現到這一點就是說有一些他不願意放棄他勞保資格因為他已經繳了一段時間了但是他又真正的實際從事農業的部分所以這個部分大概有4萬多人所以我們也一直希望說在這個部分設計一個方案讓這些參與勞保的人但是又有實際耕作的農民"},{"start":6369.444,"end":6399.038,"text":"能够参加农民退休储金所以这个部长都有了解所以可以让他们一起参加其实也不是说他们没有从事劳保工作劳工的工作他们有两份工作有些工作是一些工作是责任制的所以他可以从事两项的工作所以可以给他们多一点鼓励像我们的农民的退休储金就是多一点鼓励保障他们的生活这样子的话他们会更多人来投入我们的农事工作好不好这个也要注意"},{"start":6399.578,"end":6419.637,"text":"還有一點就是說因為剛剛特別提到有老農年金老農年金的話他們一個月大概可以領八千一百一十塊錢那所以他很多人想說我就有這個部分了我就不需要再來投這個老農這個退休儲金了所以這一點的話我們要再怎麼樣去宣傳去鼓勵他們呢"},{"start":6420.356,"end":6441.256,"text":"這個就像LEGO在堆疊一樣我們最底層是農民退休儲金然後你如果那個老農津貼然後你如果說現在開始從事農業你有存一點錢的話退休的話所得更有保障這個部分我想我們會更努力的來做一個宣導所以提撥的他們可以領雙重更多對 未來可以領得更多比老農津貼還多"},{"start":6442.017,"end":6453.311,"text":"就趕快把這個案子定案來我們招委也在排這個案子 希望能夠來做審查找這個草案修正通過 好不好那接下來本席要問的就是廚餘的問題"},{"start":6454.947,"end":6483.239,"text":"剛剛大家都有提到廚餘的問題那現在最重要廚餘的部分的話現在從2025年到2026年我們循序漸進先讓家戶的家庭的廚餘先來退場然後再事業的廚餘嘛 是不是那剛剛有提到部長有提到說現在補助這個黑毛豬的部分2025年 今年的話一頭是3600元請問明年一頭是多少錢不是"},{"start":6487.35,"end":6504.439,"text":"轉型的時候我們由廚餘變成飼料的時候我們給他每一頭3600塊大概半年的飼料費另外我給他一些餵食系統因為飼料有另外的餵食系統從30萬到300萬根據他不同的規模因為我的資料裡面有看到說2026年如果說"},{"start":6506.48,"end":6529.816,"text":"他們在轉型當中他們一投注之後補助1800塊是不是沒有 那個是明年的1月1號才來舉手說他要轉型的我們就希望說因為明年1月1號開始你就要徵主嘛你要徵主才能夠高溫徵主對 那你如果說這個時候開始我們就希望說他在年底之前能夠說他願意轉型我們會給他輔導"},{"start":6532.057,"end":6539.227,"text":"那如果說最慢到明年的1月1號1月1號才決定 才決定的話現在已經12月幾號了到明年的1月1號 你的轉學時間太快了吧你就把3600塊變成1800塊 對"},{"start":6547.216,"end":6564.961,"text":"因為不是因為這個時間太急迫性了沒有因為1月1號開始他如果繼續用廚餘他就必須要符合增主設備三個條件所以在那個時間點他要嘛就是飼料要嘛就是廚餘那要廚餘的話他也許可以到年底來申請"},{"start":6565.401,"end":6592.151,"text":"部長因為你們2027年就全面禁止廚餘對不對所以現在已經12月了到明年2026年不到一個月的時間我認為你們循序漸進裡面要多給他們一點緩衝的時間所以到明年本席的建議還是維持一頭豬是3600塊他們一樣是高溫會去珍珠慢慢的循序退場因為這個廚餘部分在我們的家庭廚餘"},{"start":6594.232,"end":6620.993,"text":"這個大概一個月有1385公噸那置業廚餘的話大概760公噸那這個這樣加起來就2000多公噸你現在的廚餘的話你沒有這個能源化跟堆肥化你沒有這個設置的這個設備的話全部丟到焚化爐去焚燒你全部去焚化爐焚燒焚化爐能夠承受嗎這些等等都是問題所以"},{"start":6622.794,"end":6640.564,"text":"本席在這邊建議部長我們一定要完整的因應跟所有的配套我們要把這個所有的升值中心或者是說我們的高速這個堆肥的這個處理中心通通都要把它建置好來才可以承受這個處理的部分好不好"},{"start":6641.805,"end":6661.343,"text":"我跟委員報告當初在設計就有階低式的補助最主要就是因為我們一年以後完全禁止了所以這些猶豫期不要太長你如果變成飼料的話我們盡量的去協助你猶豫期不到一個月對啊現在已經12月幾號了沒有所以我們階低式的1月1號明年1月1號以後是1800"},{"start":6662.324,"end":6686.313,"text":"所以現在我說你的1800太快速了是不是在做研議還有就是廚藝的部分因為主席站起來還有廚藝的部分家庭的廚藝的話是比較多的你可以請他們快點來處理這個清潔隊或者是收這個廚藝的部分能處理但事業廚藝我昨天在碰到餐廳事業廚藝裡面他們就有提到說"},{"start":6687.253,"end":6706.508,"text":"他們的廚藝現在是有人去跟他收買來運送但是未來的話他們的私藝廚藝的話誰去幫他運送誰去處理直接就增加這個費用啊環境部會負責找那個以種的清潔業者去收"},{"start":6707.669,"end":6722.666,"text":"這個費用的話是清潔業者環境部補助清潔業者嗎未來是地方政府必須要負責的地方政府是負責的很多餐廳不知道這些也都必須要做宣傳所以整套的過程這個部分環境部他有"},{"start":6723.486,"end":6743.922,"text":"農業部一定能夠循序漸進的包括就是廚藝的處理跟我們家庭跟我們的事業的廚藝都要看怎麼去處理配套都要完整還有我們的設備也要到位來處理這些廚藝廚藝也可以變成我們的經濟跟環境的這個循環的這個很重要的部分最重要的 拜託"},{"start":6745.134,"end":6751.117,"text":"黑毛豬的養豬戶穩住他們的生計我們會成立一個輔導團隊不要讓台灣未來都沒有黑毛豬了會 我們會成立一個輔導團隊一起來努力讓這個產業 積極的跟他們溝通好不好會好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝李玉玲委員質詢謝謝部長我們現在那個陳昌明委員質詢完我們休息五分鐘我們請謝一鋒委員質詢"},{"start":6780.987,"end":6788.455,"text":"好謝謝主席不好意思我腰閃到部長我想請問一下這個農民退休儲金條例其實我上會期就已經有你說這會期要送這個會期會送進來對啊什麼時候"},{"start":6804.039,"end":6824.218,"text":"我跟委員報告其實我們跟行政院都已經報告完了現在就等到安排院會以後就可以送進來了大概什麼時候你總要跟我們一個我們盡可能的跟行政院溝通剛才趙委有講說看看這個禮拜可不可以進去我們會盡最大的努力"},{"start":6825.289,"end":6848.801,"text":"現在覆蓋率只有50那你提出你的版本你規劃說未來覆蓋率可以到達多少我們如果從現在參與的年齡層來講輕農的部分就是剛進到農業職場大概5年到10年這段人他的覆蓋率最低的才20幾而已所以我們希望說減輕他的負擔這樣的話他們就有機會來繳這個錢"},{"start":6851.863,"end":6860.112,"text":"那相對的提高比例是1.5嗎沒有我們保證不變那個保障不變就是委員您提的是正午"},{"start":6861.027,"end":6884.292,"text":"提拨的多一点农民继续缴原来的可是我们问了农民就是说他现在的钱就缴不出来了他不在乎最后的保障是提高的因为最后的保障其实是30年后特别是20几年后他们是希望现在能够少缴一点所以我们根据这个部分保障不变所以你们是希望就是说让农民少缴一点对"},{"start":6884.992,"end":6893.665,"text":"然後政府多繳一點所以你們用比例對 本來是10 10嘛就是20%裡面然後政府繳8%政府繳12%然後農民繳8%這樣的話繳的比較少他們就願意"},{"start":6899.304,"end":6915.53,"text":"所以是你們用比例的就是問題就對了對對用這樣的方式然後那能夠提高的覆蓋率是多少我們希望至少能夠再提高個10%以上然後60%剛才包括委員之前也一直在提醒的就是說如果農民退出儲金"},{"start":6917.11,"end":6944.546,"text":"加了农民退休儲金我的其他的政策补助是可以加码的话那这样的话更有诱因啊特别是他们需要一些贷款或者是他们需要一些农机具的补助如果你有农民退休儲金的话我可能提高了3% 5%可以让他们的退休儲金当做一个就是说等于担保品吗是不是不是就是你如果参与农民退休儲金我的补助可以加码"},{"start":6945.832,"end":6960.305,"text":"這樣的話他們就有誘因因為他們要來申請補助嘛像農機的補助對不對其他的補助那你有參加退休儲金就可以多個5%那這樣的話也是一種誘因啦我們希望說通過這樣的方式來提高他們的誘因"},{"start":6960.97,"end":6988.083,"text":"好 那希望競速題來委員會好不好那因為這個是相關的那個大家都在意的問題那是不是請農業部就這個部分緊述那再來就是說廚餘現在就是說在廢棄法裡面認為是一般廢棄物對不對那可是如果要比照日本的Eco-Food那樣的模式"},{"start":6989.364,"end":7007.822,"text":"你就是變成是環保飼料那是不是要改變廚餘在廢青法裡面的這個認定的我跟委員報告就是在廢青法這邊弄的是一個生廚餘的部分那未來如果說廚餘經過加工以後變成飼料"},{"start":7009.243,"end":7025.349,"text":"那就是一個飼料的一個產品它不會是一個廢棄物了所以我們未來是朝向像日本就是說它是把一些食品的下繳料還有其他事業的一些下繳料廢棄物它變成飼料以後它就脫離了廢棄化的管轄"},{"start":7026.99,"end":7044.269,"text":"對那所以有辦法嗎你們有提出嗎這個應該就沒問題了變成飼料就不屬於廢青法管理那這個部分就是說那個環境部有同意嗎因為這個廢青法我們一起在努力因為因為廢青法是環境部嘛對不對因為這個東西涉及到兩個部門"},{"start":7045.25,"end":7065.996,"text":"我知道那因为这个厨余的处理一直都在环境部那所以你们禁用厨余的这个问题那牵涉到台湾的所有的厨余未来要怎么样去化那现在这个问题到底有没有解决在行政院会你们有没有解决"},{"start":7067.737,"end":7096.02,"text":"環境部已經規劃完整的一個去化方式然後在明年年底的時候因為它有一部分會進到焚化爐那焚化爐如果參雜廚餘大概10%的話對於焚化爐是沒有影響的所以他們用這種方式來處理還有包括能源化還有飼料化的部分所以廚餘就是一個廢棄物當你廢棄物變成能源化的話那相關的像黑水蒙那如果變成一個飼料的話那就是飼料化"},{"start":7096.68,"end":7113.939,"text":"那這個部分如果都處理完還不夠的話就進到焚化爐去焚燒他們大概有這樣的一個規劃還有就是還有就是剛才大家提到的就是你廚餘的這個就是廚餘養豬這個要全面禁止"},{"start":7115.26,"end":7131.439,"text":"對於飼料的補貼我剛才看到了你那個飼料補貼為什麼從就是說現在開始接受飼料補貼的轉變成飼料的是3600那明年的才1800嘛對不對我看到你美頭是這樣子你這樣子有辦法讓他們轉成飼料嗎"},{"start":7135.684,"end":7151.653,"text":"我們設計這樣就是希望他們提早來轉你想要他快點轉嗎快點轉的時候我們的輔導團隊特別是黑毛豬的輔導團隊我們會來協助這邊然後我們也試算了一些用我們的黑毛豬的配方"},{"start":7152.693,"end":7173.725,"text":"的部分其實它的成本會高一點但是後面我們會推動黑毛豬的這些品牌讓它消費市場的價格價值也高一點的話大概能夠平衡他們的一個收入我們豬肉出口咧我們豬肉現在出口怎樣豬肉的出口目前就是會等到我們加工的部分是可以啦"},{"start":7174.665,"end":7189.33,"text":"非洲豬胃如果再一次的那個加熱的豬肉產品是可以出口的但是生鮮的話現在是不行要經過再去跟那個WHO去申請為非裔去以後才可以"},{"start":7189.758,"end":7217.788,"text":"就是再等三個月嘛是不是對 至少三個月啦好 那我們彰化的那個什麼西湖的冷鏈啊那個後面畜牧師師長那時候有去啊對我們冷鏈那個是不是能夠協助我們彰化的因為其實你要做冷鏈就是希望說肉品的加工或者是外銷或者是販賣能夠有就是有提高它的利用性我跟文明報告就是肉品市場附設的這個加工廠"},{"start":7218.428,"end":7237.861,"text":"過去都是農業部來協助的我想我們後續也會再來協助對啊我們是不是能夠來協助提高這些肉品的市場 銷售市場好不好用冷鏈的部分我們會來支持的好不好好好好謝謝謝謝謝一鋒委員質詢謝謝部長我們現在請陳昌明委員質詢"},{"start":7249.014,"end":7273.054,"text":"主席好现在有请陈部长请陈部长陈局员辛苦你向我们的召委明年才要请县长现在声音就沙哑了要好好保重身体坚持到最后部长你笑了你的闪耀也要保重自己你是下乡闪耀还是打高额球闪耀呢"},{"start":7273.925,"end":7292.324,"text":"我不會打高爾夫球我不會打高爾夫球下一張搶腰啦好 我了解那剛剛有談到池液的問題你談到飼料有補貼但是池液裡面變成有機肥料好像沒有補貼因為那個"},{"start":7294.051,"end":7303.99,"text":"環境部說 原料來源不明 很多種混雜其實池域裡面可以做很多很好的有機肥料這個有沒有辦法突破"},{"start":7305.556,"end":7323.848,"text":"我跟委員報告就是用廚餘去做成肥料的時候最大的一個困擾就是因為廚餘的料源它的成分不穩定那成分不穩定做成飼料的時候他可能還要再添加因為飼料是一個規格品所以最大的問題是有沒有辦法規格化"},{"start":7325.243,"end":7354.198,"text":"你飼料如果有機肥料你也可以檢查出來我是提供一個idea其實我聽他們很多人講這個有機肥料非常有效環境部不敢認定我覺得以臺灣的生物科技你有機肥料一定能檢查出來嘛你要只要要檢查非洲豬你看它的裡面有沒有含那種細菌在裡面嘛不要環境部一講你們就萎縮了其實通常有機肥料比飼料還要"},{"start":7356.072,"end":7381.168,"text":"重要而且銷售的時候比較不會有困難了解我我我謝謝委員的提醒就是有機就是廚藝變成堆肥的部分那那個部分我們來推廣那我們不會不會說因為裡面可能是不是要檢查什麼非洲豬瘟病毒因為他不是在非洲豬瘟的傳播鏈裡面所以這個部分最重要是他的品規有沒有一致性這樣的話農民用的時候才可以用"},{"start":7381.628,"end":7408.453,"text":"這方面再精進一下了解一定有辦法去分析出來的感謝多元的用途大家的壓力才不會那麼大而且選擇高單價了解這永遠是在競爭裡面生物科技的一環今天我們主要是農民退休執政條例我記得上個會期謝議員委員就有召開了對不對你說要版本趕快送過來我說下個會期就這個會期"},{"start":7410.552,"end":7429.282,"text":"上個會期 上個會期我說下個會期會送進來這下個會期現在快要結束了還沒有啊 1月31號還在拍拚但是這裡面我說啊 現在選舉時間政治很敏感郭國文是台南市長候選人"},{"start":7433.876,"end":7458.651,"text":"那個先用你彰化縣縣長候選人我們的陳田輝召委您台南市市長候選人我們的蔡義儀是你嘉義縣縣長候選人還有一個臨時通案我們的楊瓊威委員是台中市你候選人現在你問題大"},{"start":7460.876,"end":7475.727,"text":"所以你老生選到這個選舉你這招就做了不要讓大家痛苦開始都在唱了那我今天請你報告你說要政府吃多農民吃少你建議的剛好農民吃40%"},{"start":7478.257,"end":7506.214,"text":"政府吃60% 兩個都是綠色的你選擇他當初我記得上個會期你跟我挨不能增加多少我現在就大放開了那這邊我們不是要參選市長 縣長我們提30到70最公正百姓吃30 政府吃70這樣好不好所以你心機很重我跟委員報告我在上個會期的時候就提出來了"},{"start":7507.074,"end":7527.707,"text":"那時候委員的版本都還沒有 我就提出來說是不是可以用一個保障不變的之下 比例可以做調整我們現在在代理的版本 現在出來 你看這競選到我厲害了我跟他說 你現在這個時候 給大家去搶不要說這幾個人功勞 他們會拿出來不會啊 我想我們在做這個設計"},{"start":7531.389,"end":7556.972,"text":"你這樣一次來4.6到時候變成3.7還是其他調整比例先想好啊明年先幾年啊 官位要保得住啊這個你說你不會啦你一定很公平我們是用專業的角度去設計一個包括財政的問題啦趕快送出來快要結束了 要委員提出來你才有行政版本才要進來你要比委員的版本"},{"start":7558.992,"end":7562.457,"text":"行政院要比委員的版本早一點送進來這個心機很深"},{"start":7566.571,"end":7588.82,"text":"我告訴你 不是我能夠控制的 這個在行政院卡住啦另外 馬上你會遇到排富條款這幾年我一直在想一下 土壤存款每一年綜合所得不得超過50萬第二個 個人土地及房屋價格不得超過500萬我怕得太慌 你不怕得太"},{"start":7591.242,"end":7609.134,"text":"現在地價上漲公告的限值也在上漲你不趕快改這裡管理局長的候選人一定會被頭一條迷你雜錐把你踢出來我跟委員報告你覺得要改嗎 我記得楊清雄我們幾個選舉委員會的人一直反映這個問題我跟委員報告你都要等到選舉年要踢出來沒有提早動作動機不成正"},{"start":7621.783,"end":7628.628,"text":"那個老農經貸大概三個部分 額度的部分一個是所得的部分 一個是財產的部分的的排付 那這個排付我們都已經設計好了 我們從"},{"start":7642.137,"end":7660.206,"text":"去年十月多一直到今年的三四月的時候都跟院長報告八月的時候最後一次報告已經送到縣政院去的你趕快提出來 我們要提出來不然功勞都是那些選舉人 你看都在這個時候出來 把他踢出來"},{"start":7662.407,"end":7691.013,"text":"法案早一點提出來啦要到明年選舉再提出來啦不會啦什麼不會就已經到了還不會你要不要改那個排污條款什麼時候提出來我們有做修正然後我們也把版本送到行政院去了我很尊重你耶你講話都很福氣耶真的我已經送到行政院去啦那要趕快拿出來不然我們走到台下好壞人人為了這樣就算了我會再跟行政院報告看看可不可以儘快"},{"start":7692.712,"end":7701.944,"text":"儘快的時候 這些人會跳下來把你農業部包圍起來吧儘早準備儘快送出來 減輕他們的負擔 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝陳昌明委員質詢 謝謝謝謝部長 我們休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7779.093,"end":7779.973,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7827.277,"end":7831.179,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8028.152,"end":8033.354,"text":"好我們來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝這個主席楊瓊英發言 邀請部長我們請部長謝謝委員好"},{"start":8046.762,"end":8072.919,"text":"部長好 部長我們今天針對於我們的農民退休儲金制度的設計那在整個保障農民晚年生活的時候呢這個農民退休儲金條例第七條的分擔比例是農民跟農業部辦一個負責各自那但是我們這幾年來的成效只有四成"},{"start":8073.837,"end":8080.231,"text":"台北要到五十萬四十五萬而已對 那有好的制度為什麼人家不要用"},{"start":8081.311,"end":8102.66,"text":"也就是說制度裡面還有調整的空間制度裡面還有調整空間因此本席也提出修正條例第七條的部分也就是將前向農民及主管機關第三條第一線共同提增的金額因合併計算為提繳總額由主管機關另給10% 60%農民40%的比例來分擔你的看法呢"},{"start":8109.202,"end":8137.278,"text":"我跟委員報告就是基本上我們在送到行政院的版本也是用這樣的一個方式在保障不便的情況之下政府多出負擔一點就是百分之六十那謝謝你也是同意那你們什麼時候送來我們都已經在審了在巡打了我已經報告就是我們已經有我親自已經跟院長報告了好幾次了然後現在版本也在行政院就在行政院的院會通過以後就可以送出來什麼時候要通過"},{"start":8138.547,"end":8156.457,"text":"因為我們已經在審了你這個會期會不會送進來送進來邊緣討論這個會期我的目標就是這個會期一定要送進來不是一定要送進來我們一定要讓他通過這個我知道所以我會再跟行政院反映是不是能夠儘速的安排到院會裡面去"},{"start":8156.837,"end":8186.557,"text":"您所謂的禁訴我們希望可以看到落實的行動因為除菁制度的意願跟它的普及率跟保障農民的權益這是非常的重要好不容易我們的精神目標都一樣也就是把行政部門的加10% 60%農民的部分40%能夠讓我們農民真正來運用落實到政府的這個制度不要只有那個三四成現在四成多"},{"start":8187.277,"end":8209.132,"text":"我們希望能夠普及率 好不容易達成共識 請你一定要趕快去追出來那接下來本席要請問 也就是老農年金的問題老農年金本席也提案 現在是多少錢 牌戶的額度是多少8110 那個牌戶的部分所得是50萬然後那個自住房屋的話400萬 然後財產的話是500萬"},{"start":8212.599,"end":8238.25,"text":"對啊 財產的部分500萬本席有提案希望能夠提高到800萬我們已經附委進來了 也在討論中是那這個部長因為十部我與每一個樣態不一樣情境不一樣縣市合併之後高雄市 台南市 台中市 桃園市新北深閣都有這個問題"},{"start":8239.671,"end":8261.25,"text":"我們合併了之後 它的土地自然增長我的鄉親常說的都說土到家裡還沒吃我真的沒有辦法生活但是是政府的公告限值 公告地價自動提升升格為直轄市 區域改變它的樣態我完全都沒有動"},{"start":8262.791,"end":8278.956,"text":"部長你有沒有思考到這個問題有我跟委員報告在這次我們送到行政院的版本裡面就考慮到這一點就是土地公告限制從100年開始都沒調到目前為止已經提高了64.78%所以我們在這一次的排付條款裡面我們也會"},{"start":8281.556,"end":8296.262,"text":"針對就是所謂的土地公告限制做這些調整也會把我們的所得也會把我們的財產的部分一併把它提高另外在額度上面來講現在是每四年調一次嘛對不對但是這四年中如果CPI調整得過"},{"start":8297.482,"end":8320.363,"text":"帳幅過高的時候 我們希望說有一個遊戲規則在這個4年之內 如果達到某一個啟動的條件的話我們也會來做這些額度的提升他的上限也超過的時候 我們就知道立即可以提升所以這個部分我們也送到行政院 也是要等到院會通過那剛剛好啊 你財產的部分現在是500萬嘛我們是提升到通本的部分 地價這個"},{"start":8322.725,"end":8343.112,"text":"從100年到現在那大概是6成多將近7成嘛所以本席提案的800萬你應該要支持啊我應該這麼講喔我們在考慮這除了都土地公庫限制的時候我特別跟行政院反映就是說其實農民辛苦了一輩子他買房子跟一般人買房子的概念是不一樣的而且這個房子不能變"},{"start":8344.252,"end":8352.894,"text":"不會不容易去電線對嘛 這是我自己在做的嘛我的真正農藝生活所需他不是用這個去賺利差嘛所以你要實際上照顧人家而且整個因為這個區域的範圍提升嘛尤其是縣市合併的直轄市啊它的落差會更大了解 這個我們都有考慮所以我們提的版本"},{"start":8369.759,"end":8375.372,"text":"我相信就是如果願意通過的話應該會獲得委員的支持啦"},{"start":8376.22,"end":8401.832,"text":"好 所以我們一個結論也就老年年輕的部分排富不管你的收入所得或者是你的財產的部分應該要依照這幾十一二十年來沒有調整比例給它調回來真正的尊重農民 照顧農民因為農民這一些財產他並不是去商業行為賺立場對 這是我們農業部的立場農業部應該要全力的"},{"start":8402.752,"end":8420.875,"text":"來照顧我們的農民我想部分藍綠白的我也跟院長報告 院長也蠻支持的好 既然支持我們就要繳成要落實來 接下來本席跟你討論非洲豬瘟的這個事情那你現在公佈全面禁止飼養豬魚的養豬那給予最長時間是一年的轉型期那你是到明年的12月31號那你現在說你有一個方案來補助"},{"start":8431.457,"end":8447.133,"text":"也就是前半年一個月一頭租600塊那等於是最高是3600塊是不是這樣子來接受轉型是不是如此是 這比110年在轉型的時候2400塊又足足提高了1200塊"},{"start":8448.444,"end":8463.055,"text":"但是我們臺灣有幾項比較特別的也就是我們的我們的蝸豬肉是全世界最有名蝸豬肉就是吃燉蒸煮熟了之後吃燉蝸豬肉最好吃是不是這樣子"},{"start":8463.815,"end":8493.055,"text":"我跟委員報告黑豬分為大黑豬跟土黑豬那現在也有一些用飼料養的他的風味其實也不錯所以我們現在成立一個輔導團隊就是用我們敘事所的這些專門給黑豬的改良式的配方然後去提供他去做這些轉飼料的這些配方那這個部分他的成本也不會比一般的飼料還貴他比一般的飼料還便宜那我們會成立一個輔導團隊去協助我們的黑毛豬轉型"},{"start":8493.955,"end":8511.571,"text":"本席也就是說不管什麼樣的方式在整個轉型當中必須要透明化的讓養殖業者他非常的清楚而且是協助他而且還保護我們阿滴阿嬤的世界之冠的一個美運你們是朝這個目標"},{"start":8512.011,"end":8527.589,"text":"这个非常的重要所以你的专家学者怎么去做我们也希望可以看到你的美丽成果出来那最后一个议题我把这个课题给你也就是无人机的部分大家现在知道我们的农业人力不足"},{"start":8528.51,"end":8549.688,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下呢無人機必須AI系統派上用場可是我們碰到場域的問題有很多也沒辦法那這怎麼辦所以農業部是不是應該要去做一個跟政府橫向的一個聯繫怎麼樣讓農民可以更便捷解決他人力不足的這個困境"},{"start":8551.349,"end":8576.534,"text":"我跟委員報告就是無人機的那個飛航的場域我們大概已經在今年的10月多已經確認了所有的資安場域的安全性然後包括一些禁飛區因為在機場那個禁飛區都已經劃定了然後在12月17號我們會對業者辦說明會然後大概在明年1月初的話我們就會開放我們的RTK讓他去使用"},{"start":8577.854,"end":8591.081,"text":"12月就這個月的17號會開放說明會我們的基本場域在哪裡因為農民非常的善良他們也希望能夠明確告訴他們他們的作為場域範圍讓他們能夠安心的來使用"},{"start":8595.863,"end":8616.288,"text":"12月17號會做說明會明年初的話我們就會全面開放這個RTK讓他們來申請因為他的定位精準非常精準到幾公分避免他的林田污染必須AI的體系來協助我們的農民他們人力缺少啦以及效能都能夠提升好謝謝委員謝謝楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝部長們謝謝請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":8647.49,"end":8649.511,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請農業部陳部長恭喜部長 謝謝委員好部長 今天針對第七條有四個委員版本 但是有兩個方向這個第一個方向是謝宏跟郭國文的版本就是提高比例 政府出資"},{"start":8676.551,"end":8703.55,"text":"增加0.5就是農民跟政府比例是1比1.5 是這樣會增加大概15.5億對那這個部分也是固然一個方式他造成的效果就是說我們是增加預算但是他每年以後假如30年之後農民可以在30年之後可以每個月大概多領比限制多領7000塊左右"},{"start":8705.39,"end":8729.75,"text":"如果按照限制不改的話大概30年之後大概每個月可以領3萬8如果按照這個1比1.5如果修正通過他每個月可以多領7000塊沒有錯嗎4萬545431限制多7000塊左右對好如果按照第二個方向我們調整政府跟農民的負擔比例農民市政府6就是40% 60%"},{"start":8731.872,"end":8736.638,"text":"那正午出8% 正午出12% 農民出8%不管是這個4比6或者3比73比7的話就是農民出6% 正午出14%好 以4比6這個負擔比例來看正午增加多少 6.2億"},{"start":8753.992,"end":8777.617,"text":"對 6.2億好 那你如果變成3比7的話政府出7成然後農民負擔這個3成的話大概增加10億左右嗎差不多好 差不多10億好 以這個方式來看30年之後保障還是一樣是維持這個3萬8是但是呢 這個過程中啊它每年大概可以少繳1萬到1萬5我這樣算沒有錯嗎差不多"},{"start":8780.15,"end":8801.887,"text":"我覺得這兩種方式各有利弊一方面這個農民可以有更大的誘因如果按照第二個版本比例如果農民負擔比例降低到三成政府出七成的話還每個月繳的金額很少會增加誘因那剩下22萬人有資格現在投保參加的只有11萬只有50%對不對"},{"start":8804.775,"end":8830.043,"text":"那已經實行4年了我們目標是涵蓋力要越高越好 對不對對來保障這個農民退休的權益嘛我們現在是雙軌制除了老農今天之外這個最重要的這個農退這個部分最重要嘛所以我們要怎麼樣讓這個投保率參加的這個農民能夠增加你要定到一個目標值比如說5年之後你要提升到這個15萬 16萬甚至到7成"},{"start":8834.932,"end":8839.187,"text":"那要達到這個目標你的所用的途徑你的approach是什麼"},{"start":8841.308,"end":8866.655,"text":"我看你們好像這兩種版本這兩種方式你們都覺得好像會跟其他的這個產業跟其他的這個退休的這個體系來比較會有些不公平我不這麼認為我覺得農民是相對弱勢相對弱勢政府對他們照顧越多或者更多本來就是應該的所以你看就整體政府的預算來看"},{"start":8867.699,"end":8895.147,"text":"你如果用1比1.5 政府多出0.5 這才增加15.5億那你如果把這個農民跟政府負擔把它調整成3比7 也增加10億3比7的話 當初因為沒有加入 最主要原因是因為他的經濟負擔不起假設政府出資到七成 每個月繳的金額已經大幅降低了 他有沒有意願 他會有意願"},{"start":8897.142,"end":8913.331,"text":"所以我個人覺得啦這個不管是第一個途徑或第二個途徑我覺得這個農業部都應該要考慮的不是說以現有的這個制度就僵固化在那邊那我認為這個"},{"start":8915.692,"end":8940.661,"text":"今天排這個法案審查固然重要我們希望說立法院如果達成共識給農業部更大的支持我們希望說這個經費這個預算對農業部大概不是問題那我們是要說服說說服全體國人相對的弱勢是農民對農民多一點的照顧福利是應當的"},{"start":8942.406,"end":8969.033,"text":"所以我個人覺得 你如果要把這個政府提繳的比例 把1比1變成1比1.5我覺得乾脆1比21比2啦 1比2你才增加30億 對不對好 如果你要調整政府跟農民負擔比例現在4比6 我認為還太過保守 我覺得3比7"},{"start":8970.926,"end":8992.753,"text":"這樣子農民才有意願才有能力去參加這個制度我們當初這個修法我們立法通過就是為了讓這個所有農民都可以參加嘛可是14年才只有50%就代表問題出在哪裡就誘因不夠所以從這兩個方向我想請教一下陳部長"},{"start":8994.017,"end":9007.733,"text":"我跟委員報告就是這兩個版本最大的差異一個是1比1.5的部分是對於未來他的退休以後的領的會比較多我了解我剛就講過了那我的重點就是說我們希望說"},{"start":9009.576,"end":9025.036,"text":"保障不變的話政府多繳一點我們現在初步的送到行政院的規劃是60比40但是我們會另外設計一個誘因就是說你只要參加農民退休除禁的部分的時候相對的農業的相關的補助我可以加碼"},{"start":9025.757,"end":9044.209,"text":"那因為現在的青農他的收入不是很穩定你講到重點了就是加碼還要加上彈性也就是說單方面的加碼你要保持一個彈性的制度比如說有重農 實際重農但是初期他無力提繳你給他一個遞延期或者農業生產他有週期"},{"start":9045.329,"end":9073.011,"text":"他如果欠收的時候你是不是可以讓他遞延提繳或者是這個豐年補繳不要說一欠收年他就可以遞延提繳那豐收年再補繳解決他有現金流的問題我覺得委員講這個彈性的部分我們倒是可以去設計就是說像有時候遇到天災的時候他沒辦法繳的時候我是不是可以延後繳那這個部分現在是用六個月我們現在是六個月"},{"start":9074.072,"end":9092.827,"text":"6個月補繳的方式那未來我們會看實際的狀況那我剛才講的一個重點就是退休儲金你如果參加退休儲金我所有的其他的農業的補助我可以加碼的話其實對農民是更有誘因的因為那個部分的一個加碼讓他減少的負擔會比較低一點"},{"start":9094.446,"end":9110.615,"text":"所以这两个途径我觉得应该都是你们农业部要仔细去思考而且不是说只是说说而已真的是你送到院的版本是四十六十嘛对不对就建设了这个大概是菜鱼的版本嘛"},{"start":9111.973,"end":9126.697,"text":"是我們先送到行政院的話後來委員要陸陸續續所以你原先送到行政院就是40、60嘛是那我建議是不是可以再前進一點因為物價你要繳到30年30年之後他才領3萬8是所以30年之後物價是怎麼變化這個很難去預估"},{"start":9133.188,"end":9136.655,"text":"對不對 你現在這個10年前股價還才1萬多少這個3年前股價才1萬3現在已經3萬7 2萬7了"},{"start":9144.04,"end":9167.262,"text":"所以這個物價是非常高 變化非常大所以我覺得應該要超前部署的話是不是可以一次就到位掉30 70我跟你們報告因為我們這次調整除了退休儲金以外我們對老農今天也做了一些調整那這個部分其實加起來然後再加上我們剛才說的就是你有參加退休儲金我的補助有加碼的部分那個加碼的額度"},{"start":9169.643,"end":9181.828,"text":"會對於農民有更多的誘因我們希望說委員能夠支持這樣的一個方式如果這兩個制度加起來老農今天在你做一些調整你這個相關的機制調整調整的方向是如何"},{"start":9183.325,"end":9199.012,"text":"老農津貼老農津貼基本上分三個部分第一個部分是額度的部分現在是四年一次嘛那我們希望因為四年可能像CBI可能變成八九去了像今年到現在為止已經五點多了所以我們希望說四年之中如果說"},{"start":9200.252,"end":9221.463,"text":"兩年的過程中我們檢視一次如果說他CPI超過某個百分比我們就啟動調整但是四年做起來不變這第一個第二個部分就是排富的部分土地公告限值到目前為止過去一直沒有調整已經累積已經增加了64.78%然後我們一次會把它補到足然後同時我也一直跟行政院"},{"start":9222.323,"end":9250.857,"text":"建议就是说农民的房子他是辛苦一辈子才去买的他不容易去做变现他当然有生活所以我们希望说能够还有一个更好的一个设计的一个机制让这个排付条款能够再拉高一点你说是按照CPI调整或者按照这个COV就是土地公告限制好这些制度什么时候可以上路我们也已经送到行政院去了也跟院长报告过然后我们现在就等在合订之后就可以实施等没有等立法院"},{"start":9251.997,"end":9278.618,"text":"通過院會送到立法沒有 行政院通過院會送到立法院來的話就可以進到排審還是要修法對 現在已經修完了只是還沒有經過立法沒有 行政院的院會通過還要送到立法院嘛然後要送到立法院 對所以這兩個方向彌補這兩個方向補足之後未來30年之後這兩個制度加起來你預估農民退休一個月可以領多少錢大概3萬8左右"},{"start":9281.789,"end":9295.058,"text":"蛤 現在還是3萬8嗎調整之後喔老農今天又調了喔老農今天又調了可能會到4萬去了喔30年後如果勞退呢勞退才3萬3而已農退如果再調呢"},{"start":9296.554,"end":9322.702,"text":"勞退因為勞退的部分我們並沒有去了解他未來他的CPI不是 我說農退 農退你如果 農退如果再調的話農退調還有那個老農經驗也調的話那相關的30年後大概會將近4萬4萬左右啦現在算起來是3萬8嘛那未來可能會增加到4萬左右好好 謝謝謝謝我們邱志偉委員質詢 謝謝"},{"start":9324.568,"end":9326.711,"text":"我們謝謝部長 我們請戴瑞隆委員質詢好 謝謝趙偉豪 請陳部長請部長"},{"start":9339.928,"end":9363.883,"text":"我一樣先請教這個農退處境的部分現在的方案當然有1.5倍跟政府6農民4那我想請教因為現在到今年10月的話大概11萬人提交大概覆蓋率大概參與率大概五成差不多五成那如果我們採行現在的政府的方案就是6比4這樣的方案的話預估它的覆蓋率會到多少"},{"start":9364.663,"end":9377.071,"text":"我們希望說覆蓋率能夠再提高到10到15%10到15%所以等於是會6成56成到7成左右6成到7成但這樣的覆蓋率部長滿意嗎"},{"start":9378.3,"end":9394.322,"text":"我想應該這麼講就是現在覆蓋率比較低的是青年農民大概是20幾歲到35歲之間他覆蓋率只有24%我們希望把這個部分因為這個部分是我們蔚藍農業的主力希望他的覆蓋率能夠讓到我希望更多青農進來回鄉來服務所以我們是"},{"start":9396.384,"end":9422.216,"text":"比較精準的希望這個族群的目標能夠再拉高一點從24至少能夠拉到60%左右這樣的話才有意義那你能不能在設計上面有一些對他們有利的一些制度讓他們更願意加進來這個因為這才達到你要的政策目的所以我才會說我們經過問卷他們不在乎最後領的是不是多領一點他們是在乎現在可不可以少繳一點所以我們才會去設計政府多出一點"},{"start":9422.856,"end":9446.287,"text":"保障不變那如果照這樣的思考點的話那如果73呢能不能讓他更少而讓我們的覆蓋率提升更多甚至讓更多青農願意加入到這個農退儲金的這個這個部分我們設計64以後我們另外加了一個方向就是如果你有增加你有加入退出儲金的話我們其他的相關的農業的這些補助能夠加碼"},{"start":9448.408,"end":9475.984,"text":"那其實他們現在喔青龍很多都是做貸款買農機具買蓋溫室那他的具體的制度會是什麼就是你要他具體的制度出來他才有可能產生對所以我們希望說是用六四的方式第一個讓他掃腳讓他先進來加保我先問一下部長如果是七三的話那大概覆蓋率會到多少你們的評估呢這個我們現在目前並沒有做很仔細的七三的一個評估如果在七三的話有可能再增加一成的這樣的一個"},{"start":9476.624,"end":9489.831,"text":"我個人覺得其實現在目前如果如果是46的話他們現在每個月繳的部分其實並不多啦重點是他們希望說我們的補助能夠加碼"},{"start":9491.247,"end":9518.943,"text":"補助加碼的那個減少的那個他的經濟負擔會比但是現在那個細節出來了嘛就是執行的辦法出來嘛就是說我因為我因為參與到的農退雛心而能導致其他的補助能夠得到加碼我們現在初步大概是用5%來看那因為5%如果他蓋溫室有沒有他蓋所以會因為比如說因為你參與的這個制度我多增加你5%的補助類似這樣的方式然後這樣的話他的"},{"start":9519.703,"end":9546.087,"text":"節省的金額會比你們政策的評估因為增加了加入之後加了5%那會有更多有多少人應該會有更多所以我們最終的目標因為每一個保險不可能百分之百當然所以我們最期待的目標至少要八成對所以部長可不可以我們的目標上面是設定八成就是設定八成但你講這幾個都是政策目標但我也預估如果也許你用73的話也有可能可以達到八成的目標"},{"start":9546.627,"end":9574.806,"text":"那這樣兩種不同的路徑都是一個可行的路徑我也希望農業部在審慎地評估因為有時候這個最直接就是你直接定在這個裡面他很清楚地明白了我的負擔減低了然後我就有可能因為你現在預估可以到七成了嘛對 但如果說我們變七三可以到八成的話那等於更多的農民更多的青農願意加入這一套制度的話這也是我們要的目的嘛如果他對於他的將來退休的更有保障他願意加入的話我認為這個是最重要政策的目的"},{"start":9575.126,"end":9602.5,"text":"所以我們以八成為目標剛剛部長講這是一個路徑7比3也是一個路徑我們希望兩個一併來思考好不好我們會再去評估一下另外更細的政策評估讓他出來包括你的政策方向甚至於說這樣是不是能達到我們希望的八成的目標那如果我也個人認為如果有辦法達到八成的目標的話那應該這個政策其實就表示我們達到我們要的一個目的了好不好我們希望讓更多青龍回到農村去這是一個很重要的事情不管是在高雄或很多的中南部"},{"start":9603.42,"end":9617.54,"text":"很多的人口 農業人口的流失其實青農回去會扮演非常重要的角色而且他們的行銷能力他們的觀念 他們的栽種各方面都會帶動整個我們農村更走向更好的高價值化的一個效果是 這也是我們農業的目標好"},{"start":9618.701,"end":9634.584,"text":"再來我請教一下美濃其實是一個成功的例子啦他在過去他是菸業的但是因為後來我們加入WTO之後轉型後來我們在稻米我們在白玉蘿蔔在野蓮最近白玉蘿蔔在進行包括野蓮基於也成為一個很重要產業我也去看過很多次"},{"start":9635.404,"end":9654.292,"text":"這個部分他現在整個經濟的產值大幅提升 增加十倍之多所以我認為像這樣的經驗我希望未來農業部能夠持續支持像幾個很重要的農會他重要的一些轉型 成功的給予更大的支持 那我也看到他的經費其實反倒是在明年度是受到的減少"},{"start":9655.332,"end":9669.12,"text":"這個部長能不能允諾未來對於像美農像很多的其實高雄好幾個農會都做得非常的好我希望對於做得好的有方法有能力的給予他更多的支持讓他們能夠轉型更成功讓他們能夠帶動農民更大的一個效益"},{"start":9671.713,"end":9695.862,"text":"農會一直是我們農業在施政的一個非常重要的夥伴那有的農會其實他蠻積極的部分像您剛才所提到的一些比較農會有比較積極的部分那針對這個積極的部分我們包括如果他是有稻穀有糧倉的部分我們會協助他糧倉的改善那需要冷電的部分我們也會有一些支持這個是我們講我們一貫的做法所以我們會去支持這樣子的有積極心的這些農會"},{"start":9696.442,"end":9722.021,"text":"我之前當過海航局長我很清楚知道每一個農漁會他們有不同的那有些很積極的就會達到很好的效果那如果這個很積極的方向是正確的而政府又給予支持的話就會達到很大很大的很好效果這個就是我們現在在做的那我也希望農業部持續的協助農漁會在於很積極很有想法的也很有執行力的給予他們更多的支持讓他們做一個指標那做得很好的時候他們帶動很大的效益讓旁邊的也都會看得到"},{"start":9722.421,"end":9737.527,"text":"然後一起來交進來那這樣子有一個很強的農會跟所有農民合作的時候其實就達到很好的效果我也希望農業部在這塊的支持能夠繼續給予我想農會的支持我們還是持續在做但是經費上要給予支持啦因為這是最現實的問題我瞭解好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":9738.707,"end":9759.55,"text":"那再來是 一樣啦 農業人口老化所以我們現在努力在讓更多的新農加入其實我們補充更多的外籍的勞力 增加更多智慧化甚至於保障農民生活 這個都跟今天有關那我也一樣 還是希望像我去看了很多的一些 像剛剛提到的野聯我覺得很多都是一些外籍的來協助來協助 因為那個工作"},{"start":9759.91,"end":9776.44,"text":"那我也希望這塊未來還是一樣思考怎麼樣讓產業能夠持續留在地方上面 留在農村裡面那這樣子才有辦法讓青農也進來然後另外有更多的人力來協助讓我們很多的產業走向像我常看很多他們很多的一些產業不管是"},{"start":9778.381,"end":9799.539,"text":"這個野蓮或者是甚至很多的水果的甚至很多的蔬果他們做得很好而且他們進到了很大的通路而且他們得到很高的規格到了全世界級的通路都進去了我們國家有很多市以後他進去了而且他的標準完全符合的我認為這個都會帶動他們很穩定的收益跟很高的一個價值我希望農業部要持續的來協助讓"},{"start":9800.74,"end":9815.681,"text":"我們這個缺口跟這季節性像你看在高雄的時候連90歲的阿嬤都還要上陣啦某一程度如果他有一些收入也不錯但是也凸顯出來我們在人力上確實很吃緊特別是一些季節性的我希望這些都能夠有彈性的思考"},{"start":9816.301,"end":9844.441,"text":"讓我們的農村能夠持續在產業上能夠更永續的發展我跟委員報告就是現在目前兩萬人我們也跟勞動部希望說他能夠再擴增人在第一個部分第二個部分就是我們也會針對一些行業放寬他的一個標準那這個部分我想現在大家對於移工的用的制度現在慢慢的熟悉了所以我們會逐步的放寬這個只要拿捏的好的話其實我認為對整個台灣的農村台灣的產業是有幫助然後我們有一些跨區的移工的調度這個現在已經在執行"},{"start":9845.862,"end":9871.683,"text":"最後一個問題我想請教現在我們禁用廚餘了那對於我們的黑豬會不會產生影響很多黑豬他本身對於廚餘這一塊是很依賴的這個有沒有辦法有一個好的我想我們已經成立了一個黑豬的一個輔導團隊那這個部分我想我們會立即的組這個團隊下將說明讓黑豬因為過往都是用廚餘嘛他用飼料可能他不習慣還有一些做法那這個配方的調整我們後續我想"},{"start":9872.123,"end":9886.259,"text":"我們會持續的來努力他剩下可能還是成本的問題我也希望能夠協助他們能夠做一個順利的一個對 我知道這個就是配方的一個調整我們非常重要請部長再詮釋讓這些事情除以這件事情能夠圓滿的一個解決了解 我想我們朝這個目標好 謝謝部長謝謝賴瑞榮委員的質詢謝謝 謝謝部長我們請張綺凱委員"},{"start":9919.759,"end":9945.07,"text":"謝謝 主席 部長就坐著了部長 高麗菜 今年高麗菜產量過剩那個價格價格大跌現在這個農民很辛苦而且無助所以最近我另外一邊為了幫助這個幫助這個農民另外一邊也幫我們嘉義鄉親加菜 所以我這禮拜"},{"start":9947.23,"end":9975.519,"text":"我就買了一些高麗菜回去送給這個鄉親 讓這個農民不要那麼辛苦不要那麼辛苦那透過八位里長在家裡來領的人也很多那很多農民就在問齊凱一件事情 他就說要靜靜 要靜的時候農業部應該可以適度跟他們提醒可是我看了一下 現在有兩個大的問題你看喔 來我們看下一張來 你看一下"},{"start":9976.818,"end":10002.47,"text":"除了燈號之外 我看你們花了五個紅燈然後三個黃燈以後 後來紅燈又掉下來嘛那很多專家寫者就在建議啊他說高麗菜差不多等年都有產銷適合這個事情嘛對不對 幾乎每年都發生啊那農業部能不能在這個外銷上面多去幫助農民尤其是東北亞這個亞洲的這個東北亞很多都需要一些蔬菜嘛 尤其是高麗菜這個農業部可以做嗎"},{"start":10003.834,"end":10030.852,"text":"我跟你們報告第一個部分就是我們相對的如果到了東南亞東北亞日本還有韓國還有機會有一部分但是那個量比較少因為我們的高利貸的硬度跟國外的是不太一樣的部分但是成本的問題是比較困難但是我們還是會努力拉一些外交的還有一些簡易的問題我去探討以後我發現外交是一條很重要的路你看看"},{"start":10033.807,"end":10043.452,"text":"下一張那個整個那個外交台你看其實陳吉仲在1862年他曾經提過他跟全民宣誓說在108年的時候我們外銷農產品的這個"},{"start":10047.532,"end":10068.331,"text":"金額要達到60億美金 你看這條就是我們外銷歷年來從民國100年一直到112年農產品外銷的十幾年來都是幾乎是一個平的線而且到了最近這幾年還是往下降沒有達到陳其中當初跟全民保證跟農民保證了"},{"start":10070.138,"end":10081.038,"text":"60億美金沒有一年達到108年也沒有達到然後更嚴重的所以這幾年還在掉外銷這部分能不能趕快加強好不好"},{"start":10083.049,"end":10108.866,"text":"我跟委員報告這幾年外銷有稍微下滑那最主要幾個因素就是第一個部分就是因為其實去年跟特別是去年跟今年我們遇到很多颱風我們自己的生命就不太夠了有沒有因為外銷的這些品項受到因為颱風的影響所以減少了部分所以這個部分我想我們還會更精準的去走高端市場讓它的量比較少但是它的價格是不是可以比較高一點來維持這個我們會來努力"},{"start":10110.845,"end":10121.122,"text":"增加量然後你講的很好就是包括價格要提升因為你高麗菜來看剛才看高麗菜你看他在107年你看曾經7 6 4 5結果到了100"},{"start":10123.666,"end":10140.656,"text":"113年竟然只剩下他十分之一然後講這個萎縮的太嚴重了那另外有個點農民在反映的農民在外銷可以幫他們的同時現在好像很多都是後來就買去就是當成那個多元新環經濟就是當廢料了"},{"start":10144.359,"end":10170.4,"text":"我想甘藍的部分我們不做去化的部分因為甘藍的部分第一個就是我們有一個警示而且我們很多也發簡訊發到農民的手中那威華你也知道嗎因為甘藍的部分如果說維持在10塊上下過去都是因為他們都認為說量多的時候政府就會出手所以他就不斷地種多所以現在目前大概12塊吧現在"},{"start":10172.121,"end":10199.728,"text":"12到15之間現在是比較穩定當然前一段時間量比較多的話是也比較節說跟15這真的很慘對不對12到15應該是一個合理的利潤的啦對啦那剛才外銷其實你看剛才的外銷其實這幾年的外銷還是有成長我們會來努力就是拉到其他的國家但是檢疫的問題可能要更慎重來處理農民在歡迎說你現在去其實我包括高麗菜有些都有拿去做那個去化你看一百塊八年"},{"start":10201.337,"end":10219.63,"text":"還有到113還有一些當然盡量減少我甚至說買回來不一定買回去的時候可以做很多事情啊不只是外銷啊你還是可以做充分的利用以前那個香蕉比較多跟國防部都有些合作啊"},{"start":10220.91,"end":10248.95,"text":"買回去如果只要有一個一定的用途那價格應該有一部分可以當加工的部分加工也可以用最重要最重要的就是讓他們的價格可以提升了解後來我們來說另外一個就是公娘收購公娘收購那時候通過了1公斤調高5塊錢之後博定你有說你說怕調高之後生產會過剩可是我現在很明確明確給你看事實上去年調高之後"},{"start":10250.103,"end":10277.186,"text":"到座的面積沒有升反而往下降對不對那是因為我們的糧食產業政策有沒有我剛才說的我們只處理福島收購價格然後相對的增加相對的那個公糧收購量而不是用五塊去所以用我們的政策很實際的現在的糧價就支撐在那邊而且繳公糧的反而變少了表示說用民糧的方式就可以來處理"},{"start":10279.46,"end":10306.807,"text":"你跟農民講說一下子調高太多事實證明就沒有沒有啊那是因為我們的政策才造成這樣子而不是直接拉5塊拉5塊一定不是今天這個結果政策是一部分啦我現在是跟你講說你當初跟農民講說會很多人搶著走那就沒有嘛從這個數據很清楚就是面積更多的面積反而降委員 這個誤解喔我們是用我們的政策去推動才能夠獲得這樣的成果而不是用5塊錢直接加購"},{"start":10307.547,"end":10333.161,"text":"五塊錢加購絕對不是今天這個成果喔不對喔你那個五塊錢是朝野協商購的民進黨也說要推你那個現在只調了一塊八對不對你當然有某些政策啦可是你陸陸續續你有答應還要陸陸續續續還要在台北不管怎麼樣不管委員的這些提案我們的重點就是讓農民的收益變多嘛然後現在用我們的政策讓農民的收益就已經變得很穩定而且變高這是大家願意看到的嘛升高了三分之一嘛"},{"start":10333.641,"end":10360.291,"text":"有人做了統計說我們全國農民因為這個政策可能今年多收入可能有40億那現在就是要適度再增高你要三分還欠農民三分之二你可以慢慢來沒有 這個不能這樣講這不能這樣講因為您提的提案跟我們的提案目的就是讓農民的所得保障跟提高用我們的政策除了保障水稻的農民也保障了一些種雜糧的部分所以大家一起提高那是我們共同期待看到的目標"},{"start":10360.831,"end":10378.817,"text":"就是台灣民眾黨提案 國民黨也提案 我們完成了立法院 民進黨也沒有反對啊所以是三黨通過了 每公斤調高五塊那你說你用的政策很好 後來做了一個決策慢慢讓農民可以收入 可以增加 這是好的啦而且比較鐵氣你 就是沒有出現你剛剛講以前在擔心什麼面積 身高這個問題更重要的"},{"start":10380.257,"end":10400.503,"text":"制度還有一個應該要再提高啦因為當初立法院通過的不要像那個行政院長說什麼我就不執行這樣不好 會變成憲政一個危機來保證我另外問你一個問題那個米還是外銷的問題來講這個公糧跟米米的外銷這幾年表現得不好你像咖哩 咖哩在推動這個幸福的咖哩今年米的外銷很不錯啊"},{"start":10401.741,"end":10408.788,"text":"非常好啊今年到目前為止我給你看下一張有嗎今年114年1月到10號有嗎只有110年的一半"},{"start":10415.209,"end":10439.326,"text":"不可能 我覺得我們會後再給你資料我們今年的米特別好 今年的米特別好OK 今天米特別好啦 兩個啦 第一就是在減少 所以在外銷米方面再加強 這是第一個第二個 你看我們嘉義推動這個嘉義平和嘉義米這是嘉義市政府幫忙 黃米會他們幫忙啊 他們就推展到日本去啦"},{"start":10440.346,"end":10457.634,"text":"地方政府都可以做那你的資源更多嘛 對不對我想我們全台灣有非常多的米銷到日本我們都有協助包括跟農會協助包括跟地方政府合作我們都有在做對會 我們會一起來努力臺灣的米非常好你想一份現在會省米啊"},{"start":10458.594,"end":10466.596,"text":"那多推一些到日本去外銷再多一點讓我們的農民收入可以增加好不好好我們會來努力謝謝張其凱委員的質詢謝謝部長我們請張家俊委員質詢謝謝主席我想請部長請部長"},{"start":10481.465,"end":10497.085,"text":"部長 你今天跟我一樣高不好意思 因為我腰閃到沒有 身體要保重 身體第一重要部長 我想跟部長討論今天有關於溯源農糧產品的追溯系統"},{"start":10498.546,"end":10518.412,"text":"這個系統原本是要讓消費者能夠找到生產者然後幫助農民拓展他的通路提升這個食品安全國際競爭力等等但現在卻出現了一個非常現實的問題只要人在國外這個系統就完全打不開那所以呢外銷產品你要掃這個QR code頁面是無法顯示的你覺得這樣這個設計合理嗎"},{"start":10523.494,"end":10542.04,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們的溯源產品是在國內買賣的時候可以使用那因為到國外去賣的話如果我們農產品送到國外去的時候那個溯源不一定會跟著走這第一個因為有的貿易商他會用他自己的溯源條碼像日本市場他就會用自己的所以不一定看得到"},{"start":10543.228,"end":10564.406,"text":"所以那這個部分喔其實9月啊9月本席就有正式發文給農業部就說你們回覆說你們給我的回覆跟部長回覆有點不大一樣他說開放國外IP會增加駭客入侵的風險所以暫不開放查詢那我覺得這理由有一點荒謬為什麼呢因為"},{"start":10565.827,"end":10584.278,"text":"這個進入這個頁面其實是不是進入後台你知道嗎只是現在要查資料其實如果開一個VPN其實一樣看得到就是要多繞一圈啊真的我是希望農業部能夠理解說就像剛剛張綺凱委員講的我們很多東西要外銷啊"},{"start":10584.798,"end":10601.181,"text":"那這個QR Code不就是要讓大家知道溯源安全嗎那我們的東西外銷到國外為什麼國外不能掃我們的QR Code然後理解我們整個產地的狀況呢所以我也希望說這套溯源系統"},{"start":10602.242,"end":10630.62,"text":"它真正的目的要能夠落實而不是打折不是說國外IP都不能進來那我們意思說我們也不想要讓國外的人買這個產品或者是理解使用這個溯源系統嗎我跟委員報告至於說您這邊寫的就是IP會增加駭客我會再詳細了解但是我還是要強調就是我們的農產品進到國外的時候我們那個溯源碼會被拿掉因為這會根據他們的他們會貼他們自己的碼"},{"start":10631.756,"end":10648.352,"text":"如果你這樣講我還比較能夠理解因為這個給我的回覆我覺得非常的不可思議就是說是不是能夠跟速發部甚至說資安評估一下這個我們會來介紹但是有一個我要跟委員報告就是我們現在跟一些日本特別是日本的通路商"},{"start":10649.033,"end":10662.283,"text":"就是我們的溯源碼跟他們的溯源碼能夠連結這樣的話就可以從他們的消費端一直追到產地端這才是對的這個部分我們在努力好不好這個請你們加油因為我覺得這樣才是正確的溯源系統應該是國內外通用因為我們現在農產品正走向國際像高價值的台灣高山茶葉像主攻日本市場的愛文芒果還有目前美國想要跟我們購買的鳳梨等等"},{"start":10677.915,"end":10704.126,"text":"等等這個溯源系統的目的就是要建立信任而且國際上有很多開放這個查詢的平台都有很好的資安防腐我想我們應該可以努力去做到所以這一點請部長特別關心我會來處理這個IP的部分我會再來詳細了解如果不行的話我會請抒發部來協助是我想抒發部這一方面應該是有相當的水準可以來協助然後把這件事情做好那就拜託部長了"},{"start":10705.126,"end":10726.073,"text":"那另外今天大家在討論這個農退燭金啊我想農退燭金上路到現在政府一直強調說照顧農民喔這是一個非常重要的這個德政但是本席看到一些數據覺得說還有很多努力的空間那目前為止喔大家都知道說好像青農"},{"start":10727.173,"end":10752.547,"text":"救保的意願不是很高那今天也非常多的委員詢問我也想知道說目前部長是怎麼想的呢基本上就是吹油除菌本身我們希望說保障不變然後農民負擔少一點政府負擔多一點因為我們的問卷看起來因為特別是青農我現在講的青農本身大概投保率只有24%也非常低"},{"start":10753.027,"end":10780.632,"text":"然后我们也问了问卷以后也做了青年作单他们觉得说他们现在的收入不是那么稳定而且有非常多的贷款如果这个时候能够少缴一点保障不便的情况之下他们的意愿就会提高所以我才会设计说用六四的方式然后再加上一个如果你有参加退休除金的话我的其他的一些政策的补助我可以做适度的加码那这样的话对他们来讲你的经济负担就能够减轻"},{"start":10781.632,"end":10809.24,"text":"這又是另外一個本席想要討論的問題就是現在的青農真的是收入越來越低不穩定不穩定之外還越來越低真的包括說我們雲林為例好了今年菜家真的是慘不忍睹部長我很希望說農業部真的能夠提出一些解決的辦法也許跟過去傳統的辦法不一樣但您我相信您看了這麼多你也在農業部這麼久"},{"start":10810.6,"end":10828.416,"text":"你知道說這個系統肯定是有所缺失才會讓農民賺不到錢那怎麼辦呢如果假設他們持續賺不到錢我們設計這個當然是美意但是假設青農越來越少然後我們的老農也越來越少到底台灣誰要務農呢"},{"start":10830.077,"end":10844.326,"text":"不過我跟委員報告您所關心的其實在我們的菜價的部分其實短期葉菜類的衝擊是最大的短期所以我們現在一直因為特別是颱風過後連續幾個颱風的話因為颱風完了以後大家同時種那量就會變多因為上次"},{"start":10850.57,"end":10876.13,"text":"上次你就告訴我說你不會釋出這個冷凍的這一些這個硬質蔬菜來平衡菜價但事實上就是有嘛我跟委員報告齁我們釋出的那個那個才佔1% 2%而已它不會去影響我現在那個只是針對都會區的部分真的真的是影響非常的大這個菜價大家都心裡想說如果假設颱風來了然後它趕快再去搶種"},{"start":10879.472,"end":10894.669,"text":"他種都還沒長出來菜家就已經跌了你知道嗎就已經跌到谷底而且呢我覺得最大的一個問題是他跌了可能半個月甚至半年三個月半年都沒有人要管的耶"},{"start":10895.47,"end":10917.126,"text":"好像你愛種是你家的事你賠錢是你家的事那這樣子還有誰願意勿農呢我跟委員報告我們會把這些種植的資訊更透明化讓農民去了解這是非常重要的然後第二個就是我們也會盡量的去輔導這些短期業菜類的部分他能夠用更好的設施栽培才不會受到颱風的影響"},{"start":10918.067,"end":10940.105,"text":"不只是設施栽培啊你價格提不起來你投資越多他損失越多啊現在農民最痛苦的就是成本成本全面上漲然後價格是全面下跌紙箱肥料人工農藥檢驗費用都比以前高尤其極端氣候讓務農喔這個難度越來越高那我也希望說"},{"start":10941.686,"end":10968.786,"text":"農業部其實最最重要的這個農漁畜牧都是部長所管的那你不能夠農民越來越少啊你知道農民越來越少因為賺不錢他就是要離開啊他就是要去吃陶爐啊我說實在我這一點我當然很歡迎我們青農回來我也覺得他們都很有想法然後也很會行銷但是那賺不錢他們就逼不得已他們就必須去上班"},{"start":10969.466,"end":10993.374,"text":"這一點部長有研究一下嗎我想我們會做整體的去考量特別是我們從明年開始應該會把更多的這些種植資訊在第一時間就讓農民去了解然後有關於比較容易集中種植造成後面產量更多的時候我們會再想辦法看有沒有辦法做一些計劃性的生產的部分去處理甚至說有沒有辦法保障他們"},{"start":10995.595,"end":11008.393,"text":"保障他們收入的這個制度可能要去思考一下市場的機制沒有辦法在現在沒有辦法用所謂的保障價格的方式或者是有一個樓地板或者是有一個最低的樓地板這個部分我想"},{"start":11011.096,"end":11033.922,"text":"部長研議一下然後大家集思廣益一下然後也借鏡一下其他國家我們一起來討論是不是能夠讓農民真的不要種菜種到懷疑人生懷疑說我為什麼在這裡我在做什麼那這樣子農業部的價值才有辦法大大的發揮起來謝謝部長謝謝你身體要保重要去整骨啦"},{"start":11037.423,"end":11038.784,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員質詢 謝謝部長我們請盧憲英委員質詢就是有請部長"},{"start":11056.105,"end":11082.067,"text":"部長好 委員好我們先針對我們的災區就是我們這次的災區有光復鳳林跟萬榮它這是煙射火的那個淤泥可能短時間裡面沒有辦法耕作那可能他們就沒有收入這個時候他們如果要有參加農退處境的時候沒有辦法按時繳納或者是說他們六個月連續被扣款失敗的話有沒有一個機制可以保護他們"},{"start":11083.923,"end":11104.353,"text":"我想第一個我們已經有延長六個月了然後我們會做一些比較更彈性的來調整就是說針對這個地區的農業的復耕的進度如果的話進度如果沒辦法超過六個月還是沒辦法處理的話我相信我們還會再延 而不會影響它的權益這個部分我想我們會來彈性的調整"},{"start":11105.273,"end":11126.517,"text":"好這幾天我問了一些就是災損的那個民眾有沒有收到補償金他們說確實有收到不過有些建議跟部長報告因為常常原住民地區的耕作物不是單一的有的時候他的耕作面積不是很大所以當然就時效性因為地緣遼闊啊還有承辦人員的辛苦他們要翻山越嶺那"},{"start":11127.117,"end":11143.445,"text":"常常為了去一個地方可能要騎搭檔的摩托車上去結果去了以後結果申報結果沒有辦法獲得補償或者說補償金非常少那有一個建議就是說如果他確實是他只靠這一分地或是不到一分地的這個農作物在過生活"},{"start":11144.045,"end":11172.704,"text":"其實可以去問說他這個這一年他因為這塊地他實際的收入多少有一個補償的機制比如說他這一年完全沒有收入的話是不是如果他原本是應該可以拿到一萬塊是不是給補償個三千塊或者是這樣的一個基準來弄因為現在的補償機制是這樣他是看作物類別嘛然後如果說他這是這次的話是芋頭結果他這個芋頭田裡面因為可能他的需要他會種一些花生啊或者什麼就其他的雜糧可是他在補償的時候他不是針對這個"},{"start":11174.445,"end":11193.34,"text":"所有的種類他只對單一種類所以他的耕地面積已經很少了結果他補償的時候是又是以農作物的話他實際可以拿到的補償金可能不到1000塊所以我就說應該是按照他實際一年的收入然後給他補償多少錢這樣的一個思考邏輯可以嗎我想跟委員報告特別是在"},{"start":11194.076,"end":11222.59,"text":"一些栽培面积比较少的话它同一块地会种的非常多的作物那相对的我们没有办法实际上去从它的作物它花生种多少量然后它的芋头种多少量这样去处理这个没办法处理的我知道那是个别那是因为特别辛苦的人所以我是觉得说如果有一个有别于一般的机制来讲的话至少让他们的生活至少有一些补偿这样这样的一个逻辑来帮忙他们可以吗"},{"start":11223.746,"end":11242.132,"text":"我這個可能會後再看實際的這些狀況因為基本上如果一塊地種很多的話我們會用大宗的部分來處理好 那我們回到今天的主題就是關於年金的部分那我今天上午問了我們鄰居就是只要知道的農人我說你領多少錢他大概都是領大概8000塊左右"},{"start":11242.54,"end":11271.276,"text":"那我今天聽了質詢後大概我知道大概現在在推的是都是在講30年以後的事情所以那我覺得如果你要鼓勵年輕人的話你應該是要講說那每5年 每10年你投入這個農保以後你可能我們的預期是多少因為他沒有辦法想到30年以後的事或者說他的誘因不足嘛然後你現在可能剛剛有講了他的可能像是2800那可能以後調到4比6的話可能是2200多那其實沒有差距很大"},{"start":11271.696,"end":11293.03,"text":"那如果你要怎麼來誘引這些年齡別的人我是覺得說你們的那個KPI值應該是要去設定說各個年齡別願意投入這個農保這個除菌這個這個比例你要怎麼來來努力把它完成那我現在看到全國的年齡別大概全國的那個涵蓋率大概是30%左右嘛可是原住民的部分經過一番努力去年"},{"start":11293.61,"end":11315.009,"text":"今天才委員說6%現在我早上問他說目前進步到8%不過這個8%還是不足千人所以我是希望部長說我們原住民的人口五十幾萬人你說只有不到千人來參加這個而且我們幾乎都是現在都是轉型為農人了所以我是覺得說這個比例上面是不是也要檢討我們目前"},{"start":11315.649,"end":11330.938,"text":"原鄉幾乎沒有一個很非常成功的農會或者說農會幾乎都是在跟原地鄉平地鄉的農會綁在一起所以沒有一個獨立自主的農會在經營所以這是一個契機去檢討原住民地區盤點"},{"start":11332.139,"end":11359.23,"text":"平地原住民 山地原住民地區的農會的一個契機讓這個農會可以真正的去強化它的功能然後增加我們年輕人的誘因好不好好 謝謝委員我想我們已經在做就是我想過去原住民部落本身大概都是公所為主要的這些溝通的地方那農會相對的角色比較少一點這個部分我想我們已經要求一些農會我們提升一些農會的功能"},{"start":11360.09,"end":11382.91,"text":"對於這個原民部落這些原住民朋友們的一些協助啦所以這個部分我們後續會來加強好 謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝謝謝盧憲宇委員的質詢 謝謝部長我們現在請賴思寶 賴思寶 賴思寶委員不在何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在我們現在請蔡易餘委員"},{"start":11397.756,"end":11401.809,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們是不是有請部長 陳部長部長 委員好"},{"start":11402.577,"end":11427.246,"text":"那因為今天我也是提案的委員那我針對這個農退的儲金那目前覆蓋率不足那如果我們政府來提高比例 增加誘因而且也減輕農民的一個經濟負擔那我這邊也有列舉了這個農退儲金的一個提繳的一個提繳的人那看起來從111年開始就卡在9萬"},{"start":11428.826,"end":11447.858,"text":"甚至在114年感覺人數反而還減少了那我想要請教部長那對於這樣農退雛心的一個提繳人數一直沒有辦法再往上拉覆蓋率大概就41%那你們的看法是怎樣那以及你對我這一次的提案那農業部的態度是怎樣呢"},{"start":11449.281,"end":11471.662,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個部分就是其實農保的人數也逐年在下降那現在從現在目前覆蓋率其實最低的是青年的部分從25歲到35歲這之間那他本身大概覆蓋率只有24%所以我們怎麼樣讓這些青年的農民能夠提高他的投保率是一個非常重要的目標"},{"start":11472.483,"end":11495.614,"text":"所以我們也做了一些問卷也跟青榮做了一些座談那因為他們在從事農業的時候因為他們的收入不是那麼穩定而且做了很多貸款初期的時候所以他們一直希望說能夠少繳一點然後他們覺得說後面的30年後他們沒辦法去想像30年後的保額提高會是怎麼樣的效果"},{"start":11496.274,"end":11522.067,"text":"但眼下如果低的話他們願意來比較願意來投保所以我們才會設計說在保障一樣的情況之下農民少繳一點政府多繳一點就是6比4的方式來處理那這樣的話我相信應該對他們會有一些增加他們的投保的意願所以補充你會支持說我們用6比4未來再查證我們送到行政院的版本就是用6比4的方式來送好那這版本什麼時候會出來"},{"start":11523.377,"end":11538.346,"text":"這個版本其實已經送到院裡面一段時間了現在目前正等待院會通過以後就會送到立法院來好 那事實上我也關心還有一件事情就是我們在講老榮今天的排付條款"},{"start":11539.286,"end":11567.939,"text":"因為這個牌付條款你限縮農民他的不動產在五百萬那或者他的收入是在五十萬以下基本上這個對於農民來說是一個很大的不公平而且你知道事實上很多農民為了這條老農津貼可能他的不懂善愛抓貴貨愛抓貴貨給別人我覺得這個都增加了很多社會不必要的成本所以這個老農津貼的牌付條款"},{"start":11568.675,"end":11573.693,"text":"是不是可以來做一個比較大幅度的調整這件事情 農業部"},{"start":11576.249,"end":11602.697,"text":"我們也做了非常大幅度的調整也送到行政院去也跟院長報告過了大概分為三個部分第一個部分就是額度的部分過去額度是四年針對CPI去調整那現在我們的版本裡面也設計了大概兩年會去檢視如果CPI超過某個百分比的時候就啟動調整那這個東西可以比較實際的反映物價的部分像今年已經預估大概五點多嘛"},{"start":11603.257,"end":11627.786,"text":"那如果說能夠有調整的機會那更好那第二個部分是排富的部分那從您剛才所看到的現在目前的公告土地限值的部分從100年開始一直都沒有調過到目前為止已經增加大概64.78%所以我們在這一次的版本裡面我們也設計了一個未來的會根據公告地價而調整但是在最新的一次的話會一次把它調滿"},{"start":11628.706,"end":11650.261,"text":"就是過去的64.78沒調的我們一次把它調滿那未來也會根據土地公告限值CLV的部分去調整那第三個部分就是這個調整就是包括土地跟財產的部分我們也跟行政院說明就是農業本身的房子是我們農民辛苦一輩子努力得到的他的房子的"},{"start":11651.562,"end":11664.786,"text":"的價值跟一般人家買房子的價值觀念是不一樣的所以我們也除了這些土地公告限值的部分是不是還有一個設計可以讓他的那個排富的門檻更高一點這個部長就是說"},{"start":11666.607,"end":11689.915,"text":"不然因為你們看起來就是說你們是要房子跟土地價值500萬可能會把這幾年沒有調的就是64%這個把它補回來但是我覺得你那個唯一自住的房子扣除額度我覺得我注定既然是唯一自住的房子這部分就全部不要算進去"},{"start":11691.175,"end":11711.211,"text":"因為它就是大家嘛不管它是大好大壞農民大好住好一點也不是罪過嘛那幹嘛還要把它限一個400你400你把64%加上去可能也是到達700而已啊事實上以現在整個的一個房價來說我感覺這些都不好啦"},{"start":11712.172,"end":11733.88,"text":"看可以說你們在調整的時候不然就是至少對於唯一自住的房子這一件事情就不要去搭以後就不要再去限制這一件事了我跟委員報告在實務上因為我們的版本送到行政院去已經經過了一些討論了那如果說還要再重新去做這些思考像您剛才的建議的話"},{"start":11734.64,"end":11751.256,"text":"那整個版本要重新退回來再一次所以後續我會尊重委員會的一些討論因為我們都有很多我們自己的版本而且未來在討論的時候就是說有院版那每個立委的版本大家一起討論那農業部分應該要更持平更以農民的立場然後來去思考這整件事"},{"start":11755.72,"end":11776.196,"text":"真的只有一棟而且是他自己住的部分那整棟那是都沒關係啦我覺得這個是可以來討論的像農舍我們現在都沒有在處理是啦當然農舍是沒有嘛但是很多農民並不是多數農事啊他們就可能說在附近的住宅區買一間房子而且這房子事實上有的地方漲價的還漲的蠻多的"},{"start":11778.737,"end":11804.21,"text":"你這個唯一自助啊 他就要去歡樂說我這個唯一自助啊 現在到底是錢是多少 會超過嗎 超過我的勞動進程的薪水嗎我們不要讓他去歡樂這個啦讓他們生活過得可以比較 信賴的 住得比較寬心的啦好不好 那部長我再短短的時間再澄清一件事啦就是喔 我們替我們基層的民意代表 我們基層的民意代表"},{"start":11805.05,"end":11827.533,"text":"他們可能本來都是農保那因為選舉然後變成民意代表後就變成沒有農保的狀況那等到了他落選或者是他不選了他可能需要恢復農保可是已經超過65歲了所以他就變成什麼保都沒有民意代表可以維持農保餒民意代表可以維持農保維持農保是要兩年後"},{"start":11828.917,"end":11839.959,"text":"兩年後這件事情部長可以了解一下他要恢復農保沒有他不用退民意代表他是可以維持農保的喔可以一直維持嗎可以維持農保意思是這樣子"},{"start":11841.152,"end":11867.574,"text":"好那這件事我要再理解一下因為我在把資料提供給委員我現在聽到的一些反應就是說因為他當了民意代表後他的農保沒有了那等到了他落選了他超過65歲他就等於是未來這基層民意代表我們所有的民意代表就不用退保都可以維持農保那你把資料給我一下我覺得這部分我可能要再釐清一點好謝謝"},{"start":11870.023,"end":11873.986,"text":"謝謝蔡育委員質詢謝謝 謝謝我們部長我們現在請郭國文委員質詢謝謝主席 有請陳部長陳部長就在那邊等我們來 陳部長"},{"start":11888.12,"end":11906.949,"text":"部長我剛剛聽到跟那個蔡議委員的這個答詢當中就是有關於我們這個老容津貼的這一個部分的排付條款的部分事實上之前兩年多前本席提案的時候就說後來顧慮到跟其他的社福津貼八大津貼掛鉤在一起不想要單獨處理聽起來是不是已經脫鉤了是不是"},{"start":11908.487,"end":11930.536,"text":"我跟委員報告就是之前委員也有一些建議嘛然後還有就是我們也根據一些委員的建議設計的版本我們已經送到行政院去了所以說你們是打算脫鉤處理沒有 我們是希望脫鉤啦脫鉤處理嘛行政院一直沒有進到應該要脫鉤早早就要脫鉤掛鉤其實是沒有道理的嘛沒有 因為行政院一直沒有排到院位其實他沒考量就是要跟八大涉無那個整個"},{"start":11932.116,"end":11950.204,"text":"時代的轉變那個門檻越來越嚴格當初我就換算那個整個物價指數等等加起來應該要提高到800萬了沒關係這個態度有轉變是重要的條文內容以後再討論那今天我們在討論這個農民退休金條例的這個部分"},{"start":11951.204,"end":11973.862,"text":"在之前我們委員會其實就已經有所討論了那我當初的主張就是在從1比1變成1比1.5就這一次您提出來的這個方案當中40比60在倍數上是有呼吻本席的這一個說法但是就總額的部分還是有落差因為你總額沒有增加也就是說你一樣是用29550的這個部分"},{"start":11978.406,"end":12006.826,"text":"2乘以2然后再把它切成4 6比的这个概念基本上你会影响到最终的这个所得替代额的部分比如说你没有管替代率你变成一个总额把它框架住但是你没有管未来的所得替代率是否能够增加所得替代率你没有增加的情况底下你基本上你的社会安全体系就没有办法强化这第一点本席要跟你说明了第二个呢从10月份最新的数字当中我们这一个"},{"start":12008.486,"end":12035.938,"text":"預計這個投保的人數加總起來大概只有八萬九千人也就是不到三成啊青龍的部分大概只有25%那過往呢其實就我們一直在argue說為什麼比例這麼低原因就是那個誘因的問題啊這誘因有兩種嘛一種是什麼你的這一個提撥金額嘛一種是你的給付金額嘛那你現在的這個方案只有提撥優惠但是給付社會安全法中都沒有嘛主委"},{"start":12036.92,"end":12038.889,"text":"部長 我意思是說你這個有盲點啊"},{"start":12040.84,"end":12068.327,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個部分就是您剛才講的就是說最後30年後到的時候我們會每一年都會隨著基本公司的調整然後如果說用1比1.5的時候我們試算過了就是說未來農民的部分大概一個月可以領到4萬5左右那我們也考量多說當我們送進行政院的時候一定會跟其他的社福基金相比那一般勞保的部分大概只有3分3所以"},{"start":12068.827,"end":12085.632,"text":"那個通過性的機會比較比較比較小啦所以我們才會設計6比4然後增加一些其他的有那個你跟老闆比較你們他們會跟老闆比較但是時間性的那個時間相度不一樣啊因為我們這個執行的時間相對比較短嘛那為何以後拉長的時間的變數比較大"},{"start":12087.592,"end":12099.319,"text":"更何況你所說的這個30年也不容易有30年齡為什麼因為這些95%的部分大部分都是屬於這一個40到64歲你如果現在60歲 50歲你是怎麼可能再做30年那是不可能的事情 對不對"},{"start":12104.902,"end":12129.269,"text":"部長 所以說你這個30年的這一個估計方式基本上就有前提上的一個誤判就是鼓勵親農 我們鼓勵親農就是有一個誤判嘛所以說你不可能所得替代率會那麼高嘛你跟其他的勞保的部分來做比較勞保的部分兩種加總起來他還有勞退的部分他不當當加起來也不只如此啊所以我是覺得"},{"start":12129.989,"end":12154.117,"text":"那個部長你這個部分真的要再重新思考清楚第一個呢前面的部分呢整個社會安全網的強化不夠那幾副你沒有從幾副觀念你只有從提撥的概念可是呢這30年的計算方式你又不死所以說你會變成這個所得替代率不足的情況底下而社會安全網不夠啦我請那個部長再回去思考一下我想我們會從不同的年齡"},{"start":12155.297,"end":12182.411,"text":"投保的年齡有沒有 我們另外算出一個他可以領的部分對 集聚的部分我們再來分析不是漢布朗當全部弄起來而且還有一個就龜丹溫泉的最近有一個1.2億你們林業署的這個燃沙壩花了1.2億還有覆潑設施本來是用來做農業的灌溉還有包括土地的流失啊最近說要把它拆掉啦這是怎麼一回事啊這個已經取消施作了喔什麼 已經施作了"},{"start":12183.817,"end":12204.748,"text":"跟委員報告我們那天開說明會完之後因為民眾他們里長他們的意見我們都非常尊重對 你們要尊重對 好不容易花了1.21才沒多久而已那整個南溪龜灘那邊的農民都在反彈取消就好了謝謝謝謝郭國文委員質詢謝謝部長我們現在請劉建國委員質詢"},{"start":12221.064,"end":12241.77,"text":"好謝謝召委也謝謝部長部長看這個報導應該就很清楚我還是接續郭國文委員剛才的這樣的一個提醒不過我可能有不同的角度去去解讀為什麼這個農民的這個農退除菁這個參與率為什麼這麼低我個人只有我先下結論第一個就是宣導不利"},{"start":12242.557,"end":12265.468,"text":"第二個執行力道不足這是我個人的感覺已經從109年通過之後101年開始實施那已經快將近5年這個中間我們有曾經在這5年之中有沒有做過任何的一個重新盤整重新調查然後發掘到到底是什麼樣的狀況為什麼要讓農民有更高的這樣一個保障"},{"start":12266.028,"end":12291.444,"text":"然後可以來享用到這個新的一個政策對他們做這樣的鼓勵相對著我們也按照這個最低的這個勞保的基本工資的這樣的一個比例而且是在這幾年來一直有在增加對不對然後從小時候應該有調整到八次然後這個賴總統調整到一次那基本上這個是主理在增加相對著我們這個農民繳交的這樣的一個這個等於是分擔金來講"},{"start":12295.807,"end":12311.337,"text":"政府也相對提撥應該鼓勵的讓人家積極的月曆來加入的這個成分會增加那為什麼會有這樣的審計報告老農今天是佔預算的4成然後被保險人提繳農退儲金僅3成"},{"start":12314.534,"end":12335.239,"text":"不想那麼簡單說明一下第一個跟委員報告老農今天本身是65歲以上的對然後退休儲金是65歲以下這兩個的分母是不一樣的當然所以相對的我們如果說用實際的從農者65歲以下又在實際從農的22萬所以我們現在的覆蓋率大概是將近五成這第一個說明第二個說明就是"},{"start":12335.919,"end":12359.787,"text":"我們也實際的去跟農民去做問卷特別是青農現在只有24%而已最低的就是青農的這個區塊所以我們也實際去問他然後得到了一個結論就是說他們現在的收入不穩定而且做了非常多的貸款包括農機包括溫室的部分那他們認為說如果能夠讓他們的負擔減少的時候那他們投保的意願就會提高所以我們才會設計說好"},{"start":12361.636,"end":12375.013,"text":"保障不變的情況之下政府多出一點6成然後農民少出一點4成我們才會設計這樣的一個機制那我必須要跟部長講今天我們就是要保護我們是要鼓勵從農對不對那更多的這個人來從事農業的工作"},{"start":12378.497,"end":12407.837,"text":"我給部長看一個數據啦齁這也是從我們實施這個農民儲金之後的前後的一個差異部長可以看到原本我們農戶從一百零八年是七十七萬戶一零九七十五一一零七十六一一一七十六現在一二是七十五點九農業的就業人口一零八是五十五點九萬一零九是五十四點八萬減了將近一點一萬一一零的時候又剩下五十四點二萬減了六千一一的時候是五十三萬減了將近一點二萬一一的時候"},{"start":12408.698,"end":12422.592,"text":"對照12對照11減得更多減得將近2.1萬人也就是說我們從11年開始實施農民處境一直到現在從農業的就業人口是持續的快速的在銳減喔我跟委員報告1億4的話已經到了48萬7更低了"},{"start":12427.016,"end":12452.983,"text":"對 所以相對我今天我看待的情況應該不是這個分攤的問題如果要去強調分攤問題那我建議絕對不能只有增加10%而已我們現在是按照基本工資的10分之一嘛 對不對通關可以叫10分之一嘛 也可以叫10分之以下嘛好 你有去精算過他叫10分之一前鋒的跟叫10分之以下的比例是多少"},{"start":12454.428,"end":12481.854,"text":"我講的話 大部分都交10%對嘛 多數都要交10%嘛 對不對好 那會交低於10%的比例應該是不高嘛是所以我要表達就是說當我們這個政策在保障農民那農民從事農業有看到未來的保障有看到這個希望的情況之下但是那個比例一直拉不高起來所以如果陳魯剛才部長答覆我的因為他有買了農機具 他有相關的貸款所以再繳這條錢 他覺得負擔蓋單的情況之下"},{"start":12484.395,"end":12489.526,"text":"你幾十趴怎麼夠你幾十趴是多少像現在是兩萬八千塊兩千八百幾塊對不對我們的兩千八百幾塊變幾"},{"start":12496.279,"end":12516.146,"text":"給他們負擔 把他們的10%給我們的新鄉年 給他們給2、3百塊我跟委員報告 一個月給2、3百塊你覺得對這個農民的資金會產生誘因嗎沒有 我現在的設計就是說 你如果參加退職除菌的時候我的農業的補助我可以加碼 那個加碼像農機區的補助我可能可以加到3% 5%那這個讓他的經濟的負擔降低的"},{"start":12520.467,"end":12530.281,"text":"效果會比你這邊又多了好像3.7啊或者2.8這樣子還多啦因為這下去就是比較多錢啦你如果可以這樣想當然是比較好啦但是你如果單純你說這個加這個10%他們會說我覺得那個誘因還是不夠啦因為是一個月加2.3百塊而已嘛"},{"start":12537.071,"end":12545.233,"text":"但是要調控這個風雲去走,這個外出要支持嘛但是你剛才說有附帶的一些相關的一些獎勵我想才可以有辦法讓他們這個才有機會拉抬那個覆蓋率因為這是你來的行,這是你做副主委的時候過去進步,你的臨來去定的這跟我們所有的政黨委員大家共同檢討出來一個很好一個情形我們就是要讓我們這些青龍"},{"start":12562.256,"end":12574.925,"text":"甚至於四五歲的農民他來這個時間點加入都有可以增加他的保障真的讓他們可以匆匆忙忙啦從事這個農業工作得到更高更好的這樣保障情況之下但是這一個參與率"},{"start":12578.966,"end":12601.818,"text":"這麼樣的一個程度相對的農業人口一直在下降我覺得這個要有很大的一個討論的空間然後應該要快速應變的這個作為才可以讓農民真正感受到當時的我們在推這個政策對他們真的有一定程度的保障他們願意主動也幫我們去宣導也幫我們去邀集"},{"start":12603.079,"end":12624.261,"text":"真正的青龍也好甚至是15歲的農民來享受到這樣的一個德政才是一個正確的好的一個政策感謝魏委員的提醒我想我們會朝這個方向來看怎麼樣再更精進好 這個是不是一個月內可以提出相關的精進的計畫給委員會來做參考我想"},{"start":12625.106,"end":12653.339,"text":"我可以先提供就是說退休除菌的這些補助的措施有沒有的一個提升的一個設計對法條的部分因為未來會進到逐條審查那逐條審查的話看委員的想法最後的想法是怎樣對 法條是一件事情相關的獎勵對 獎勵外行給你這個我們希望可以能夠知道對 我一個月之內會提供給你對 也可以給農業部相關一些意見做參考對不對好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長應該是說"},{"start":12655.04,"end":12684.646,"text":"那些配套配套我會先提供對 你要先提供法因為法進來了對我們12月22號要審是你要一併然後進到我們委員會對 下次討論的時候我會把配套也會然後也會提供給委員這樣子對 法是條文是一件事情相關的配套不就是重中之重了好 了解好 謝謝師父在12月22號同步把配套一樣我會努力跟行政院爭取趕快進院會謝謝好了 謝謝好 謝謝主席"},{"start":12685.702,"end":12701.791,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員 謝謝部長謝謝我們這個發言的委員除不在場外其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員徐欣盈 邱振軍所提書面質詢列入紀錄"},{"start":12702.551,"end":12704.353,"text":"那我们今天本日所讨论事项所列议程"},{"start":12722.174,"end":12747.971,"text":"農民退休處境條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案詢答完畢請行政院盡速將院板送本院我們12月22號繼續審查然後剛剛所提配套也一樣希望在12月22日審查的時候一併送進來那謝謝大家我們現在散會謝謝"},{"start":12752.591,"end":12752.913,"text":"謝謝喔,這樣有齁,12點"}]}},{"id":"166249","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166249","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b38af6cbfa178cd5b946ee6dd7c9e9cb52e205c0f991a2210e40c3ce8f2effcf9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:55:36 - 11:07:05","影片長度":"00:11:29","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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謝謝請農業部陳部長恭喜部長 謝謝委員好部長 今天針對第7條有四個文版本 但是有兩個方向這個第一個方向是蟹鳳跟郭國文的版本就是提高比例 政府出資"},{"start":42.609,"end":70.186,"text":"增加0.5就是农民跟政府比例是1比1.5是这样会增加大概15.5亿对那这个部分也是过来一个方式它造成的效果就是说我们是增加预算但是它每年以后假如30年之后农民可以在30年之后可以每个月大概多领比限制多领7000块左右"},{"start":71.448,"end":95.808,"text":"如果按照限制不改的話大概30年之後大概每個月可以領3萬8如果按照這個1比1.5如果修正通過他每個月可以多領7千塊沒有錯嗎4萬545431限制多7千塊左右對好如果按照第二個方向我們調整政府跟農民的負擔比例農民市政府6就是40% 60%"},{"start":97.95,"end":102.696,"text":"那正午出12% 農民出8%不管是4比6或者3比73比7的話就是農民出6% 正午出14%以4比6這個負擔比來看正午增加多少 6.2億"},{"start":120.052,"end":143.685,"text":"對 6.2億好 那你如果變成3比7的話政府出7成然後農民負擔這個3成的話大概增加10億左右嗎差不多好 差不多10億好 以這個方式來看30年之後保障還是一樣是維持這個3萬8是但是呢 這個過程中啊它每年大概可以少繳1萬到1萬5我這樣算沒有錯嗎差不多"},{"start":146.208,"end":167.948,"text":"我覺得這兩種方式各有利弊一方面這個農民可以有更大的誘因如果按照第二個版本比例如果農民負擔比例降低到三成政府出七成的話還每個月繳的金額很少會增加誘因那剩下22萬人有資格現在投保參加的只有11萬只有50%對不對"},{"start":170.851,"end":200.02,"text":"那已經實行四年了我們目標是涵蓋力要越高越好 對不對來保障這個農民退休的權益嘛我們現在是雙軌制除了老農今天之外這個最重要的這個農退這個部分最重要嘛所以我們要怎麼樣讓這個投保率參加的這個農民能夠增加你要訂到一個目標值比如說五年之後你要提升到這個15萬 16萬甚至到七成"},{"start":200.99,"end":205.442,"text":"那要达到这个目标你的所用的途径你的approach是什么"},{"start":207.366,"end":232.713,"text":"我看你們好像這兩種版本這兩種方式你們都覺得好像會跟其他的這個產業跟其他的這個退休的這個體系來比較會有些不公平我不這麼認為我覺得農民是相對弱勢相對弱勢政府對他們照顧越多或者更多本來就是應該的所以你看就整體政府的預算來看"},{"start":233.775,"end":261.222,"text":"你如果用1比1.5 政府多出0.5 這才增加15.5億那你如果把這個農民跟政府負擔把它調整成3比7 也增加10億3比7的話 當初因為沒有加入 最主要原因是因為他的經濟負擔不起假設政府出資到七成 每個月繳的金額已經大幅降低了 他有沒有意願 他會有意願"},{"start":263.197,"end":279.406,"text":"所以我個人覺得啦這個不管是第一個途徑或第二個途徑我覺得這個農業部都應該要考慮的不是說以現有的這個制度就僵固化在那邊那我認為這個"},{"start":281.747,"end":306.739,"text":"今天排這個法案審查固然重要我們希望說立法院如果達成共識給農業部更大的支持我們希望說這個經費這個預算對農業部大概不是問題那我們是要說服說所有全體國人相對的弱勢是農民對農民多一點的照顧福利是應當的"},{"start":308.484,"end":333.553,"text":"所以我個人覺得 你如果要嘛要把這個政府提交的比例 把1比1變成1比1.5我覺得乾脆1比21比2啦 1比2你才增加30億 對不對好 如果你要調整政府跟農民負擔比例現在4比6 我認為還太過保守 我覺得3比7"},{"start":337.004,"end":358.824,"text":"這樣子農民才有意願才有能力去參加這個制度我們當初這個修法我們立法通過就是為了讓這個所有農民都可以參加嘛可是14年才只有50%就代表問題出在哪裡就誘因不夠所以從這兩個方向我想請教一下陳部長"},{"start":360.072,"end":373.813,"text":"我跟委員報告就是這兩個版本最大的差異一個是1比1.5的部分是對於未來他的退休以後的領的會比較多我了解我剛剛不是講過了嗎那我的重點就是說我們希望說"},{"start":375.65,"end":391.075,"text":"保障不變的話政府多繳一點我們現在初步的送到行政院的規劃是60比40但是我們會另外設計一個誘因就是說你只要參加農民退休除禁的部分的時候相對的農業的相關的補助我可以加碼"},{"start":391.815,"end":410.507,"text":"那因為現在的青農他的收入不是很穩定你講到重點了就是加碼還要加上彈性也就是說單方面的加碼你要保持一個彈性的制度比如說有重農 實際重農但是初期他無力提繳你給他一個遞延期或者農業生產他有週期"},{"start":411.387,"end":439.069,"text":"他如果欠收的時候你是不是可以讓他遞延提繳或者是這個豐年補繳不要說一欠收年他就可以遞延提繳那豐收年再補繳解決他有現金流的問題我覺得委員講這個彈性的部分我們倒是可以去設計就是說像有時候遇到天災的時候他沒辦法繳的時候我是不是可以延後繳那這個部分現在是用六個月我們現在是六個月"},{"start":440.13,"end":458.888,"text":"6個月補繳的方式那未來我們會看實際的狀況那我剛才講的一個重點就是退休儲金你如果參加退休儲金我所有的其他的農業的補助我可以加碼的話其實對農民是更有誘因的因為那個部分的一個加碼讓他減少的負擔會比較低一點"},{"start":460.524,"end":476.673,"text":"所以这两个途径我觉得应该说是你们农业部要仔细去思考而且不是说只是说说而已真的是你送到院的版本是四十六十嘛对不对就监测这个大概是蔡玉玉的版本嘛"},{"start":478.031,"end":492.316,"text":"是我們先送到行政院的後來委員要陸陸續續所以你原先送到行政院就是40、60那我建議是不是可以再前進一點因為物價你要繳到30年30年之後他才領3萬8所以30年之後物價是怎麼變化這個很難去預估"},{"start":499.246,"end":505.638,"text":"對不對 你現在這個10年前股價還才1萬多少這個3年前股價才1萬3現在已經3萬7 2萬7了"},{"start":510.098,"end":533.317,"text":"所以這個物價是非常高 變化非常大所以我覺得應該要超前部署的話是不是可以一次就到位掉30 70我跟您報告因為我們這次調整除了退休儲金以外我們對老農今天也做了一些調整那這個部分其實加起來然後再加上我們剛才說的就是你有參加退休儲金我的補助有加碼的部分那個加碼的額度"},{"start":535.878,"end":547.903,"text":"會對農民有更多的誘因我們希望說委員能夠支持這樣的一個方式如果這兩個制度加起來老農今天在你做一些調整你這個相關的機制調整調整的方向是如何"},{"start":549.383,"end":565.07,"text":"老農津貼老農津貼基本上分三個部分第一個部分是額度的部分現在是四年一次嘛那我們希望因為四年可能像CBI可能變成八九去了像今年到現在為止已經五點多了嘛所以我們希望說四年之中如果說"},{"start":566.31,"end":587.521,"text":"兩年的過程中我們檢視一次如果說他CPI超過某個百分比我們就啟動調整但是四年做起來不變這第一個第二個部分就是排富的部分土地公告限值到目前為止過去一直沒有調整已經累積已經增加了64.78%然後我們一次會把它補到足然後同時我也一直跟行政院"},{"start":588.381,"end":616.935,"text":"建议就是说农民的房子他是辛苦一辈子才去买的他不容易去做变现他当然有生活所以我们希望说能够还有一个更好的一个设计的一个机制让这个排付条款能够再拉高一点你说是按照CPI调整或者按照这个COV就是土地公告限制好这些制度什么时候可以上路我们也已经送到行政院去了也跟院长报告过然后我们现在在合订之后就可以实施等没有等立法院"},{"start":618.055,"end":644.681,"text":"通過院會送到立法沒有 行政院通過院會送到立法院來的話就可以進到排審還是要修法對 現在已經修完了只是還沒有經過立法沒有 行政院的院會通過還要送到立法院嘛然後再送到立法院 對所以這兩個方向彌補這兩個方向補足之後未來30年之後這兩個制度加起來你預估農民退休一個月可以領多少錢大概3萬8左右"},{"start":647.845,"end":661.116,"text":"現在還是3萬8嗎調整之後喔老農今天又調了喔老農今天又調了可能會到4萬去了喔30年後如果勞退呢勞退才3萬3而已農退如果再調呢"},{"start":662.852,"end":688.139,"text":"因為勞退的部分我們並沒有去了解他未來他的CPI不是 我說農退 農退你如果農退如果再調的話農退調還有那個老農經驗也調的話那相關的30年後大概會將近4萬4萬左右啦現在算起來是3萬8嘛那未來可能會增加到4萬左右好 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首先林國成委員"},{"start":1910.684,"end":1938.323,"text":"張祺凱委員現在介紹列席官員國家通訊傳播委員會代理主委陳崇樹主委綜合規劃處溫俊瑜處長基礎設施處陳春木處長平台事業管理處黃天陽副處長電台與內容事務處林惠玲處長網際網路傳播辦公室張文旭主任"},{"start":1939.963,"end":1968.328,"text":"法律事務處蔡智奴處長北區監理處蔡國棟處長金管會陳湘瑩副組長經濟部發展署商業發展署政策規劃組熊立恆副組長勞動部勞動基金運用局李志柔主秘內政部民政司戴淑黃專門委員"},{"start":1971.004,"end":1995.952,"text":"法務部李子祺檢察官司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳林靜超法官行政院主計處公務預算處黃子涵專門委員謝謝本日會議議程進行審查衛星廣播電視法修正草案共9案"},{"start":1996.604,"end":2001.032,"text":"首先先請提案委員說明提案要旨我們先請台灣民眾黨黨團代表說明"},{"start":2021.775,"end":2027.369,"text":"首先要感謝孟愷排了這麼重要的衛星廣播電視法的一個修正案這個電視新聞啊"},{"start":2032.049,"end":2060.137,"text":"對一個國家的發展非常的重要它對於民主跟法治的深化跟發展非常大的一個影響力可是呢一直有被批評說是不是黨檢沒一體或者是我們電視台大量必須仰賴政府的補助跟採購案所以台灣民眾黨在去年就提出了改革三件的修正案包括第一個要求"},{"start":2061.717,"end":2089.287,"text":"電視新聞這個公司必須要公開發行要公開發行第二件是要求他的股權資訊有揭露的義務還有財務的資訊有揭露的義務第三支件也非常重要就是一直被詬病的很多電視台拿了很多政府的採購跟補助所以我們明確要求採購補助跟廣告的主要來源你有揭露的義務"},{"start":2090.607,"end":2111.472,"text":"這三支箭很重要的就是透過一個公開透明讓全國民眾可以知道這些電視台他到底拿了政府多少的採購跟補助我們很期待透過這樣的一個改革可以讓我們電視台回到正軌回到正軌不要變成是一個黨結盟一體所以早在兩年前"},{"start":2112.552,"end":2138.543,"text":"柯文哲在競選的時候這就是一個非常熱門的議題了民眾的要求也非常明確所以我們這次提出了有幾個重要的修正案包括原來的第4條我們增訂了第4項就是明訂請大家可以看 明訂只要是經營新聞跟財經頻道或者是直播新聞節目的頻道的衛星廣播電視事業"},{"start":2139.824,"end":2168.299,"text":"他要向證券主管機關辦理股票公開發行就是要公開的這個發行第二個我們明定 針對的第12條之一只要是經營新聞跟財經頻道或者直播新聞節目的頻道衛星廣播事業應該依照主管機關指定的方向在"},{"start":2169.159,"end":2191.921,"text":"每一年的6月30號以前將前一年度一些重要的資訊必須要公開在我們主管機關就是NCC所指定的網站跟該事業的網站上面讓全民可以共同來檢視公開透明裡面比較大家很關心的就是第六款明定"},{"start":2192.902,"end":2210.166,"text":"你如果從政府機關或者公立學校或者公營事業或者其他監處成立的財團法人只要是取得的採購標案的內容你還有金額跟各項的這個補助的這個金額必須要"},{"start":2212.239,"end":2228.147,"text":"申報而且在網站上面讓大家可以共同來檢視另外第7款明定主要的廣告來源第8款也非常重要第8款就是因為之前我們的法令明定電視台不能夠去經營有線電視"},{"start":2231.108,"end":2249.917,"text":"就是不能去經營第四台可是之前發生了竟然有電視台去經營了有線電視而且它經過一層一層的整個逃避結果變成說連NCC的主委來這邊答詢都說這個依照現行的法規沒辦法去追究所以我們增訂了第八款"},{"start":2250.717,"end":2274.712,"text":"明確的規範以後只要是負責人董事或者監察人經紀人跟直接或間接持有已經發行有表決權股份你只要超過十分之一以上的股東的投資事業我覺得你不能在那邊躲就是一層一層例如說你本來去買的可能是超過五層可是你透過其他公司一層一層到後來說我只有"},{"start":2275.772,"end":2287.608,"text":"佔有的這個可能5%或者10%我們現在明確的增加了這個第八款你只要超十份超過10%就像以前引起過病的這家電視台"},{"start":2289.508,"end":2310.298,"text":"去投資了第四台它只要超過10%都必須明確的規範這個案子我們在一年多前就提出了非常謝謝今天終於有機會可以來討論也期待經過台灣民眾黨提出的改革三件讓我們的電視台可以公開透明在財務 在廣告"},{"start":2312.139,"end":2336.832,"text":"在採購案的公開透明讓我們的電視台回到正軌為我們整個國家社會的法治民生民主的發展有更大的貢獻也讓我們的電視台有更多更多的收入而不是只有靠政府的補助跟採購案 謝謝好 謝謝張吉凱委員再來請翁曉琳委員做提案說明那下一位羅志強委員"},{"start":2347,"end":2364.234,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位官員們大家好今天非常感謝洪孟凱召委排審衛星廣播電視法的修正草案我們知道在現今的網路還有廣電媒體百花齊放的今天我們重新檢討對於"},{"start":2366.775,"end":2393.246,"text":"傳統的衛星電視的管制密度那麼過去我們其實對於廣電業者不管是衛廣 無廣 有廣的這個業者都是像是在管教乖寶寶 乖學生一樣的採取比較高密度的監理但是呢在數位匯流的浪潮底下這種思維還有必要嗎會不會過於僵化那麼在維護媒體的新聞自由言論自由同時呢為了要"},{"start":2395.527,"end":2413.809,"text":"健全广电事业的发展我们参考美国国家对于卫广事业普遍采取低密度的建立做法所以本席这次提出了卫星广播电视法的修正草案核心的理念就是要适度的松绑管制"},{"start":2414.349,"end":2423.232,"text":"提高新聞自由以及電視台衛星頻道業者的權益保障目前衛星廣播電視業者的執照期間是6年期間是每3年辦理評鑑"},{"start":2429.534,"end":2434.176,"text":"但是在現行的制度底下其實第二次的評鑑常常就是會跟換照審查重疊處理完評鑑之後可能要馬上申請換照造成實務上的困擾所以我的提案就是把現在的執照的時間有效的延長一年"},{"start":2445.379,"end":2472.84,"text":"让凭鉴和换照的时间不再重叠让业者更能够专注于提升节目品质稳定营运那么第二点就是我在这里这次也提出人民依法向政府申请申涉变更的登记那政府依法审查的时间必须要明定清楚那由于目前审查期间没有时间的限制所以只能让申请业者默默的等待"},{"start":2473.3,"end":2489.018,"text":"那因此了为了避免申请案的审理期间长期处于未定的状态就悬而未决那么第二个也为了避免政府行政怠惰拖延审查的时间影响申请人的权益所以呢本期在这里呢也提出要"},{"start":2490.299,"end":2504.637,"text":"明确规范审查期间定定主管机关审查卫星广播电视事业的申请案以及营运计划变更案的期限规定最长就是四到六个月那么来督促主管机关可以尽数的审理"},{"start":2505.953,"end":2523.955,"text":"那第三点就是我们也鼓励优良业者可以有条件的免于凭借然后进行换照那只要业者在执照有效期间之内如果受罚的次数还有他累积的罚还金额都没有达到特定的门槛他表现出良好的经营能力"},{"start":2524.435,"end":2553.098,"text":"就可以免於評鑑那事實上我們現在的設計是三年之內三次以下八十萬以下的罰環就可以自動換照那麼這個就可以免於評鑑那麼如果說是這個在執照有效期間之內有累積六次以下的也就是六次以內的處罰然後五百萬以內的罰環的話那麼就可以自動的換照那麼所以呢我想這是對於表現優良業者的肯定我們簡化"},{"start":2554.099,"end":2578.995,"text":"繁複的程序來讓大家把時間和資源花在製作更好的節目上面那第四點就是我們也考量到撤照跟不予換照的處分會對於媒體和觀眾的影響非常大而且造成巨大的損害難以回復所以這次本席也提案修訂未廣業者如果對於廢紙執照或駁回"},{"start":2579.855,"end":2607.261,"text":"换照的处分不符的话可以提起行政诉讼在法院判决确定之前仍然可以继续营运下去那这项修法除了是为了保障业者的生存权和经营权同时也是为了要保障全国观众收视多元性的权益那除了这四个四大点之外我们还增加了规定要求主管机关要召开的申设凭借换照等等咨询会议的名单和会议记录呢"},{"start":2607.602,"end":2613.737,"text":"必須要公開來提升行政的透明度讓獨立機關的運作更能夠受到公平"},{"start":2615.014,"end":2632.842,"text":"我想適度的鬆綁並不等於放任而是對於媒體專業的尊重更是對閱聽人智慧的信任所以我在這裡當然也請各位委員能夠支持這樣的提案另外本席還有提出一個就是重新再修正衛星廣播電視法第50條主要是連結到黨政軍退出媒體的條款"},{"start":2638.365,"end":2653.833,"text":"我們知道現在黨政軍退出媒體的條款他主要是為了要維護新聞自由和媒體獨立性而設下重要防線目的就是要求政府跟政黨不得透過任何方式來介入媒體的經營然而現在微信廣播電視法第五十條的法則規定呢竟然不是處罰這個投資者而是處罰這個被投資的微信廣播電視業者"},{"start":2663.177,"end":2678.975,"text":"那這樣的法條的設計其實是呈現的是荒謬以及不公平的那在過去其實歷史業者被處罰的案件屢屢都被行政法院撤回所以"},{"start":2679.935,"end":2702.729,"text":"由此可見衛星網部電視法第五十條有關於處罰的規定實在是有必要要進行修正那當然修正這樣的條文就可以避免讓業者在不可抗力的因素底下無端成為法規荒謬的這個犧牲品那麼讓我們一起可以還給媒體一個公平合理的經營環境以上 謝謝好 謝謝翁小玲委員再請盧志強委員提案說明"},{"start":2716.857,"end":2744.016,"text":"民進黨對不起鄭南榮鄭南榮是民進黨視為所謂的言論自由之父然後他這輩子最大的主張就是要保證百分之百的言論自由但民進黨上台後的第一件事情就是關新聞台用NCC當作東廠"},{"start":2745.666,"end":2774.005,"text":"來去強害新聞自由然後關掉新聞台最近又找個藉口把這個小紅書也封掉也去開始伸向網路對民進黨來說只要解決不了問題就解決可以發現民進黨問題的人可以看見民進黨問題的人可以提出民進黨問題的人"},{"start":2776.055,"end":2805.575,"text":"所以今天有關於衛廣法的修正案本席的第一個重點就是要還給我們新聞台無冕王的充分的自由不要再受NCC這個東廠所箝制所以衛廣法我修正第一條就把捍衛新聞自由放進去我提醒這些東廠們好好想想"},{"start":2807.878,"end":2833.219,"text":"民主前輩為我們爭取的包括民進黨的名字叫民主進步包括新聞自由的神聖就被過去的NCC糟蹋掉了所以第一條我修的就是告訴大家要捍衛新聞自由不要忘了今天NCC不是讓你來到東廠"},{"start":2835.567,"end":2863.738,"text":"來去護航執政者來去消滅有意見的新聞台第二個我要特別強調也在我們修法當中我們應該要回到新聞充分自由的精神也就是說不管是今天換照 評鑑我們要求就是第一個 公開透明第二個 權力節制"},{"start":2866.001,"end":2894.806,"text":"第三個應該要由閱聽大眾來決定這個新聞台到底該不該在市場上繼續存在而不是由今天所謂的執政者的意志來決定新聞台到底該死還是該活第三個在我們修法重點當中也要"},{"start":2896.566,"end":2924.546,"text":"矯正正義過去被民進黨強害的新聞台中天新聞台今天如果行政訴訟終了今天法院判決確定是你民進黨 你執政者在強害新聞自由的話抱歉 誰傷害新聞自由誰就必須恢復新聞自由所造成的傷害"},{"start":2925.97,"end":2953.742,"text":"要回復原狀所以呢我們也要求在新的修法當中能夠把今天被民進黨用所謂的權力的傲慢濫用東廠來去傷害的新聞台也必須回復他的權力只要能夠在法院的最後的程序終了"},{"start":2956.294,"end":2983.939,"text":"如果今天一直敗訴的NCC繼續敗訴的話中天新聞台必須恢復 謝謝好 謝謝再請葉元之委員提案說明也要說"},{"start":3001.419,"end":3005.103,"text":"主席在場的各位同仁還有各位官員"},{"start":3006.696,"end":3031.388,"text":"今天我提出來的是衛星廣播電視法第11條的修正草案目的只有一個讓媒體回歸市場把自由還給人民我們都知道美國的開國元勳傑佛遜他講過一句話他如果如果有報紙而無政府或者是有政府而無政府而有報紙他將毫無"},{"start":3032.368,"end":3060.894,"text":"猶豫的選擇後者對於一個民主而言媒體比政府還重要這是美國開闊圓虛告訴大家的所以新聞自由就是民主的基石政府不能夠制定任何破壞新聞自由的法律這個也被寫在美國的憲法第一修正案裡面所以美國因為對新聞自由的高度保障所以他們的民主可以持續"},{"start":3062.074,"end":3084.908,"text":"而台灣呢因為給了NCC一個手段可以把一個新聞台關掉所以就會產生寒蟬效應讓媒體因為害怕得罪當局而遭到關台的命運所以我這邊的衛星廣播電視把第11條修正草案是提出來把"},{"start":3086.092,"end":3113.901,"text":"NCC關台的權利把它取消回歸法律的管制也就是說如果電視台他犯了法就有相關的法律來規範例如說他違反了廣告相關規定那你可以罰他比如說他比如說報導了新三色或不雅的內容你也可以罰他他如果有犯法的行為詐欺各種你可以罰他但是不能夠有關他的權利"},{"start":3115.222,"end":3143.695,"text":"那這個也比較符合數位匯流時代的一個潮流因為大家都知道過去為什麼會對電視台有管制是因為頻道稀有頻道稀有的情況之下你又用到公共的評普所以當然你電視台必須負擔比較高的一個社會責任但現在數位匯流了頻道一大堆啊你在網路上在YouTube一個比較有影響力的一個頻道它可能"},{"start":3145.353,"end":3168.416,"text":"的影響力不亞於電視台但我們現在對於網路其實是採取一個網路自由的態度充分的讓網路上面的人表達意見但是唯獨對類似的經營者電視台有高度的管制甚至可以關台這個已經不符合數位匯流時代的潮流了"},{"start":3169.016,"end":3177.925,"text":"所以基於對新聞自由的尊重也基於數位匯流的這樣的一個潮流我這邊的提案是把"},{"start":3179.571,"end":3202.856,"text":"是刪除衛星廣播電視指導期限改為無確定期限但是我特別要強調這不是說電視台犯法沒有關係它犯法還是有相關一定的規範所以回歸法律的管理然後這個刪除NCC官台的權利這就是我以上的提案內容 謝謝好 感謝葉仁芝委員"},{"start":3204.454,"end":3211.487,"text":"現在再請列席機關報告首先請國家通訊傳播委員會陳崇樹代理主委報告"},{"start":3226.337,"end":3249.732,"text":"主席 各位委員 還有各位女士 各位先生 大家好今天應邀列席貴委員會就羅志強委員 台灣民眾黨團陳雪生委員 傅坤祺委員 翁曉琳委員 葉遠芝委員還有趙偉 彭孟凱 趙偉 還有徐志傑委員等提的9個案來做"},{"start":3251.263,"end":3274.043,"text":"提案的部分提出本會的意見進行指教那我這邊分就這個九個案來比較偏議題式的方式來說明那第一個許智傑委員召委胡孟凱提案的修正衛廣法第64條的部分那這邊是主要是"},{"start":3275.044,"end":3302.895,"text":"针对着远于他类频道很多的母公司是公开发行公司他在申请这个未管执照的时候会涉及到党政军的部分这个目前党政军的问题目前还没有公司来处理所以希望能够在延长申请执照的期限以凝聚这个给予党政军条款更多修法公司的空间那这一部分那NC的意见是"},{"start":3304.915,"end":3325.483,"text":"考量各界對黨政軍條款的目前還是在多方在討論還沒有確切的解決到之前那過渡期間如果採將64條第二項的規定從三年過渡期間修正為四年那NCC這邊立場尊重委員提案"},{"start":3326.451,"end":3354.36,"text":"那第二部分針對委員陳雪生還有傅坤祺委員還有翁曉琳委員提出的案子這一塊主要是牽涉到黨政軍還有相關條文的處理以及包括這個相關的一些對應的一些一些細節那這邊細節部分我這邊就不再贅述那可請參考相關的資料那針對這一部分"},{"start":3355.74,"end":3367.344,"text":"本會的意見是大致略移那陳雪仙委員針對間接持股上限有排除政府基金或者國營事業投資的部分那我們認為說"},{"start":3369.507,"end":3388.871,"text":"縱使允許特定目的縱使允許特定的投資但是持股達一定的比率他其實還是有實質控制的可能那另外傅坤祺委員將經營投資的區隔那但是我們認為說他認為提案認為說還是"},{"start":3393.792,"end":3406.38,"text":"不得介入控制的要件 這個利益很好但是在個案執行上 主管機關NCC這邊 其實是很難以來認定那這個條款也不易執行"},{"start":3407.731,"end":3431.633,"text":"那針對翁曉蓮委員她剛剛有跟各位說明她是刪除第50條這一部分的罰則那這邊我們認為說如果這個罰則對應可以修如果完全都刪掉不是提出修正的話那黨軍條款的一些拘束的部分就斷空了所以鑑於黨軍條款"},{"start":3434.309,"end":3450.202,"text":"對於衛廣法規定的我們認為說除了衛廣法之外無廣法有限廣播電視法也有相同的規範所以NCC的建議說這個廣電三法應該要做一致性的處理在黨政軍這個議題上面"},{"start":3451.883,"end":3466.706,"text":"第三 針對羅志祥委員提的衛港法第一條 第二條 十一條 十七條 十九條以及翁小玲委員提的第五案還有剛剛岳遠之委員提的第十一條的涉及到"},{"start":3468.444,"end":3492.743,"text":"衛廣執照的效期的部分還有評鑑換照的這一部分那這邊我們NCC的意見大致就是在第六頁這邊我們認為新聞自由是憲法上的制度性保障這是一個在台灣憲法學界普遍強調的核心概念"},{"start":3493.755,"end":3520.488,"text":"那我們認為為了確保新聞體制本身作為民主社會的第四權能夠獨立且有效的運作免於政治或經濟力的不當干預那最終目的是要確保資訊多元公共意見的自由形成以及人民知的權利的獲得滿足以促進公共利益的實現由於新聞自由是"},{"start":3521.744,"end":3532.782,"text":"制度性的保障而非單純個人權利這就成為本會或者國家對媒體進行適度管制的憲法基礎"},{"start":3534.834,"end":3558.117,"text":"當新聞機構本身的內控失靈違規頻繁導致資訊單一實質上就破壞了剛剛前面講的資訊多元與公共監督這個制度性保障的目的這個時候國家介入比方說就深造深造省造的制度的目的那"},{"start":3559.358,"end":3577.031,"text":"身患省照的也不是限制言論而是為了維護新聞制度的健康使他能夠持續實現公共利益第二點那有關衛廣深色案審查期限縮短的這一部分那"},{"start":3577.851,"end":3593.461,"text":"本會認為本會過往還有未來目前的做法上是有分形式審查召開專家學者執行 舉行諮詢會議以及提到委員會層層審查那有時候還需要請業者來補件"},{"start":3595.702,"end":3619.634,"text":"審查的期程其實是有相當的一些時間這是目的是為了維持審查案件的品質以及顧及到業者的權益所以我們認為要盡情維持現有的條文第三 衛廣執照的執照制度包括深色 屏間 幻照等機制那目前這個"},{"start":3622.778,"end":3647.263,"text":"6個案子 就是委員的提案版本它的期限包括7年 9年 永久以及不確定的期限這個將連動評鑑機制除了未廣電視事業外 其實也涉及到整體廣電政策的相關條文的修正這是有連動性的 你直到拉短"},{"start":3648.323,"end":3675.881,"text":"或變長 那評鑑制度是不是要相應做一些調整那為求審慎本會就是建議這一部分要多多聽取外界的意見以求周全那有關若提起行政救濟在訴願期間或行政訴訟確定判決前執照繼續有效而且效率述及既往這一部分那本會認為"},{"start":3678.619,"end":3705.819,"text":"不服NCC廢紙執照及撥回申請換照處分在向行政法院提起行政訴訟在本案判決確定前這一部分那我們認為說以現行的行政程序法第110條第三項規定行政處分未經撤銷廢紙或其他事由失效者其效率繼續存在第二個現行行政訴訟法第116條第一項規定"},{"start":3708.277,"end":3716.338,"text":"原處分的執行不應 除法律另有規定外不應提起行政訴訟而停止"},{"start":3717.284,"end":3740.511,"text":"那行政法院認為如果原處分或決定的執行將發生困難難以恢復的話其實現有的116條的第2項及第3項都有相關的一些救濟制度在這邊那行政法院其實他可以根據受處分人的申請或訴願人的申請來裁定停止執行所以"},{"start":3741.69,"end":3759.237,"text":"行政處分在經過通知生效後他發生循序力在未經撤銷廢止或其他事由失效前其效力繼續存在處分機關與相對人或利害關係人同受該行政處分的拘束"},{"start":3760.427,"end":3783.152,"text":"且有效的行政處分因為處分機關以外的其他機關包括法院的尊重並以之為構成計存的構成要件的事實作為其本身決定的基礎故在行政程序未終結前當事人都可以依上述的相關規定請求暫時權力保護"},{"start":3787.862,"end":3812.825,"text":"現行機制已有相關的處理保障人民的權益草案委員所提的草案跟上述的法律規定跟立法機關行政機關的執行司法機關救濟的這個三權分立原則是有是並不相合故是否停止行政處分的效力應該由法院依法判斷及審查"},{"start":3815.509,"end":3816.112,"text":"五有關諮詢委員會議的記錄的部分"},{"start":3821.111,"end":3841.186,"text":"諮詢委員會的建議其實是供委員會議的一些參考他並不是最終的決議那如果公開諮詢會議委員的名單恐怕會影響諮詢委員的獨立客觀表達意見或擔任諮詢委員的意願恐怕會有礙諮詢委員會議的組成或召開延宕聲色評鑑及換照的時程"},{"start":3846.789,"end":3856.525,"text":"第四 有關台灣民眾黨團提慰光法是關於這個財務揭露公開發行的這一部分那本會的意見是認為"},{"start":3861.584,"end":3889.238,"text":"民眾黨團的提案的他的說明是根據是參考油管法的部分但是考量油管法系統基因值他是有向訂戶收取收市費用為強化監理機制當年主管機關才會定這個要求資本額達一定的金額以上目前是2億元以上要辦理股票公開發行但是有限電視"},{"start":3890.686,"end":3908.612,"text":"系统业者他跟一般频道业者的规模差异其实蛮大的那营业额或他的商业模式也完全不是很完全不同那是否要科与相同的义务那渐行横着"},{"start":3909.554,"end":3922.356,"text":"另外草案有明定揭露事業的名稱地址負責人資訊這一部分在經濟部的工商登記資料裡頭已經有涵蓋那似乎沒有必要重新重複規定"},{"start":3924.212,"end":3948.069,"text":"那第三個有關揭露政府補助的部分目前預算法第60條第一項有規定政府補助相關的機關補助的機關必須在自己的官網揭露也必須在主地總署的官網來揭露這一塊可以說是已經有一些執行揭露的一些機制故建議可以回歸預算法的規定就源頭企業管理"},{"start":3949.911,"end":3965.661,"text":"最後這個未廣法他並不是專營新聞頻道有些公司他除了有新聞頻道也有其他綜合台或戲劇的節目固兼營其他營業項目的公司如果要求他股票公開發行或揭露相關財務事項"},{"start":3967.873,"end":3996.016,"text":"能否确保新闻专业自主或促进资讯透明的目的能够达成这一部分我们是渐行能够征询各界意见来求周全最后结语因数位汇流产业结构逐渐在转型营运模式和间谍的实务需要NCC将会通盘检视广电三法适时修正相关法规以应实地需求"},{"start":3997.011,"end":4014.925,"text":"那本次的提案涉及到衛廣法整體的監理本會尊重貴委員會的意見但是就修法而言 建請充分考量各項主客觀因素以及獲至最佳的處理方案 敬請各位委員參採 謝謝謝謝好"},{"start":4023.973,"end":4046.143,"text":"那其餘機關間所送的書面報告間列入記錄刊登公報接下來開始進行詢答先宣告以下事項一詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘二委員發言登記於10點30分前截止三各委員如果有臨時提案請於10點前提出以議事人員來彙整"},{"start":4048.685,"end":4076.148,"text":"4暫定10點30分休息10分鐘首先我們先請第一位登記委員林國成委員發言好謝謝我們召委請我們陳代主委陳主委請委員早"},{"start":4077.267,"end":4103.449,"text":"好 陳代主委來第一個很冒昧的請教一下NCC委員被本院夥結之後現在有沒有在徵詢有沒有準備還要再提出來因為四個才可以開會現在只有三個陳代主委以你了解行政院有沒有開始在作業有沒有"},{"start":4104.211,"end":4121.559,"text":"跟委員報告 這一部分我這邊是毫無所惜 也沒有聽說還沒有齁 這個我要特別跟卓院長講我們現在在第一次 又再提醒被吼劫之後 請行政院院長"},{"start":4123.415,"end":4142.79,"text":"盡快的把NCC委員盡快補足不要到最後又說我們立法院不審所以我要呼籲我們卓院長你如果聽到那請盡快再提出來NCC你們不是說三個不能運作嗎"},{"start":4143.971,"end":4162.828,"text":"所以盡快提出來這個我要特別呼籲當然這個你也是幕僚單位啦這個也是行政院主要所以特別有機會我還是建請我們陳代主委提醒卓院長一下好不好好來接下來我這個下一張接下來"},{"start":4169.281,"end":4193.669,"text":"台灣媒體正面臨非常嚴峻的考驗也就是2025全球的新聞自由指標由吳國介 記者組織聯盟發布台灣新聞自由面臨到政治兩極化"},{"start":4194.867,"end":4216.534,"text":"所謂的政治兩極化就是綠的就是綠台藍的就是藍台中立應該是新聞自由的中立根本不曉得在哪邊所以陳太子委你為什麼去發現到很多我們立法院的同仁在修"},{"start":4217.874,"end":4237.78,"text":"衛星廣播電視滑為什麼就是有很多不滿的地方新聞自由完完全全他的自由蕩然之無存所以陳代主委你有看到這個政治兩極化的這個問題你有沒有看到"},{"start":4239.248,"end":4253.9,"text":"這個是在社會第三人觀察或者非政府機構的觀察其實這應該是不陌生啦有沒有看到這則報導啦有所以就是要鼓勵你的同仁嘛"},{"start":4255.556,"end":4278.564,"text":"這無風不起浪國際組織都這樣認定那當然我們要悉心檢討嘛這個該改進的要改進嘛那如果沒有我們就把它當成免資嘛所以我還是呼籲啊陳代主委你在代理這段時間基本上我對於你公正兩制啊是算及格"},{"start":4279.304,"end":4304.124,"text":"但是沒有達到真正獨立單位一個行使之前的主委這個立場所以最起碼你是及格的比以前的主委那是好多但是我還是希望再接再厲做到一個真正獨立單位的代主委的一個職責這個我特別要勉勵來 接下來這一張啊"},{"start":4307.72,"end":4334.961,"text":"陳太主委你再看一下也就是世界國際組織裡面NCC應要有作為這裡面也就是台灣最不被信用的媒體前三名第一三立電視台第二民視電視台第三自由時報主委你看完這個你有什麼感覺"},{"start":4337.904,"end":4359.875,"text":"我們提倡就是我們大家都擁護新聞自由大家都遵從這個普世價值那一般都是可以認可的立場是新聞媒體可以有立場但是不能違法不能也要有是非那這邊如果說它的信任度涉及到事實查證的違法部分我們都會依法來處理"},{"start":4360.68,"end":4378.224,"text":"沒有啦 這個沒有事實查證啦這個人家是一個公正單位國際組織裡面他們對我們的一個警示啦當然沒有鞭策作用但是提高給我們監督單位去做一個國際對我們感覺的這個部分"},{"start":4381.385,"end":4403.499,"text":"要特別特別要去注意這個事所以主委當然因為我提出這兩個一個就是政治兩極化一個就是國際指資對於我們新聞媒體的自由完全淡然無存沒有信心這個部分所以我要拜託主委這兩個都是國際性質的"},{"start":4405.58,"end":4428.467,"text":"都沒有政治意味的他們所觀察到的東西所以希望主委你在這個部分我希望勉勵我們各NCC所有的同仁那一定要秉持這些朝著這個公正公開透明的方向尤其本黨所提出來三大主軸啊"},{"start":4429.487,"end":4447.809,"text":"這個三大主軸就很簡單啊我們在乎的就是財務公開透明的部分那我也知道電視台顧慮的是什麼可是你最起碼任何事情公開公平去做監督我相信"},{"start":4448.63,"end":4469.739,"text":"沒有人會對你有所質疑啦所以我希望陳代主委這個部分要特別特別去把它當成是一個鼓勵跟參佐領導的一個風格所以這兩個主持謝謝委員好不好 來接下來那金管會有人來嗎金管會來這個金管會來"},{"start":4484.798,"end":4502.394,"text":"我要談的就是現在我們這個一萬塊錢花出來這是政府之美意 民意代表所爭取可是最起碼的話金管會不曉得有沒有留意到現在金融業裡面釣魚簡幸滿天輝"},{"start":4507.038,"end":4520.005,"text":"這陳太主委跟這個金管會的代表你們對於這件事情本席提出來你們現在有什麼防備之道可以告訴我們本縣嗎"},{"start":4522.308,"end":4550.948,"text":"來 諸位先來好 各位報告針對簡訊設置案的部分分為兩大區塊一個是商業簡訊一個是個人簡訊商業簡訊目前有處理機制只要裡頭有網頁的連結或者電話號碼那除非是經過有白名單的過濾處理要不然都是通通都禁止發送那個人的簡訊的部分那目前由於是電信管理法有那個通訊秘密不能夠業者不能看他內容但是我們從行為上來看假設他一天"},{"start":4551.788,"end":4576.054,"text":"發射的發送的則數超過一定程度我們請業者要叫他回來做KYC這一塊那目前就通報部分其實大概從去年以來那1萬塊這個案子之前大概其實釣魚檢訊的案子相對165通報部分是相對沒有這個要特別注意一下啦這個非常嚴重那我希望金管會"},{"start":4577.074,"end":4602.988,"text":"也要配合NCC也好 數位部也好因為打詐現在全世界認為台灣最好騙的一個王狗所以我在想當然金管會主管這些NCC的業務是涵蓋這個部分當然打詐不是只有金管會的事也不是只有NCC的事那最起碼要跨部會"},{"start":4603.948,"end":4631.454,"text":"所以我還是希望我們現在真的要停止各自為政要跨部會要接軌合作這樣的話才會達到真正我們NCC有權利該斷的就要斷該防備的就要防備但是金管會該對金融機構為什麼我要提出來是金融機構是很嚴重"},{"start":4633.806,"end":4653.057,"text":"不管是公營的或民營的銀行那個簡信他們的簡信資料是從哪邊來呢到底是電信公司賣出去或者我們那個銀行去把它洩漏出去這是一個非常嚴重的問題耶主委還有金管會"},{"start":4654.281,"end":4669.073,"text":"我們會持續努力其實在行政院有打詐指揮中心統合的這個內政部NCC 抒發部 金管會跟法國部做這個阻詐 堵詐 防詐懲詐的一些相關的工作我們都其實都有常常密集的開會來處理好 來金管會"},{"start":4672.782,"end":4689.562,"text":"不要請你上來都不講話來我想金融業的那個打詐的部分原則上我們都是配合那個行政院我知道你配合啦但是問題非常嚴重我現在在疑問的就是說這些簡信到底是你們資料漏出去或者"},{"start":4691.384,"end":4704.91,"text":"對老人家存了兩萬 存了三萬領了一萬 兩萬你們問得好像非常緊密嚴謹但是為什麼會有這種情形所以我還是要拜託跨部會"},{"start":4706.37,"end":4727.907,"text":"這些聯繫非常重要 不要各自為政所以這個部分金融業的掉以減性非常嚴重希望金管會還有我們陳代主委要把這個事情當成是一回事專案的下去了解一下 好不好好 沒有問題 我們會持續跟好 謝謝兩位好 謝謝林國臣委員 來 代理主委請回"},{"start":4733.277,"end":4757.788,"text":"接下來再請第二位黃建豪委員質詢好 謝謝主席主席我們一樣請NCC代理主委陳主委陳代理主委請委員早"},{"start":4758.467,"end":4782.308,"text":"主委早 主委我想過去這個這一週這個週末在網路上最紅的議題當然就是我們政府把這個小紅書要把它關掉那當然理由是因為依據打詐條例的第42條認為說這個如果是為了處理詐欺犯罪防止民眾接觸到詐欺網站的時候大家當然是認為警察機關跟主管機關可以來限制相關的存取"},{"start":4783.129,"end":4806.189,"text":"那當然NCC到底是不是主管機關先講這個事情你是網際網路主管機關之一嗎就這個案子的部分目前並不是是由其他機關來主政NCC是協力其他地方主政當然是司法警察機關主政那我說針對網際網路的部分到底NCC有沒有表示意見的權利你們是不是主管機關"},{"start":4806.98,"end":4813.147,"text":"我們有一起開會但是處理這兩天媒體報導那部分是其他機關在主政"},{"start":4813.966,"end":4839.359,"text":"主委因為這個NCC過去有召開所謂的網路政策公聽會換句話說網路政策可能在未來在你們的設定裡面你們應該是要管理整個網路政策平台那過去你們也提到說這個針對的內容這個網路內容不能只有移除作為處置作為應該還有其他的做法來補強除了移除之外的事情應該由NCC來做那今天我想要提這個今天如果"},{"start":4840.299,"end":4850.69,"text":"今天這個小紅書這個平台我們當初設立這個法的目的是說打詐欺的網站比如說這個網站它本來就是釣魚網站它本來就是真正用來詐騙的網站"},{"start":4852.409,"end":4874.029,"text":"所以把它禁掉但今天是這個平台裡面的內容有內容是這個但是你把整個平台封掉了我不知道主委對這件事情的看法怎麼樣作為網路網際網路的主管機關你會你認同這樣做嗎未來是不是只要平台上有平台裡面的眾多內容裡面只要涉及詐騙我們就要把這個平台把它封起來"},{"start":4874.609,"end":4900.272,"text":"跟委員報告分兩個部分通案的部分我們認為網際網路其實全世界都一樣我們認為是目前有作用法的是相對就算是歐盟DSA它其實也是授權各會員國去個別立法其實過去五六年以來其實我們在過往109 110年做一些訴訟法的一些處理但是後來全世界都一樣其實都比較傾向於分散式立法特別是德國"},{"start":4900.973,"end":4927.48,"text":"那這一塊在臺灣其實也做了相當的實踐很多在農委會 衛福部相關的兒少保護那些他們都在他們的作用法裡頭已經立法了好 第二部分回到這個個案的部分那我們開會其實我們接觸到的資訊大致是這樣子的這個案官的這個APP它其實涉及到資安的部分還有這個當然是這個前兩天報紙披露的有涉及到一些"},{"start":4929.46,"end":4957.132,"text":"打詐的一些潛伏在裡頭那其實就是資安加上涉詐這一塊是目前這個個案比較多拿出來說這個它過程的一些要錢這個主委你講的部分當然官方的新聞稿都提到了但是我們要舉個反例啦或是說成功雖然是反例但是也成功阻止過過去前段時間我們大家談了N號房的時候它這個相關的犯罪相關的這些會員都在所謂Telegram上面在TG上面但是你是把這個"},{"start":4958.453,"end":4987.773,"text":"平台你不是把整個Telegram封掉嘛你是針對有參與到N號房的這一個社群在這個平台裡面的某個社群他因為涉及違法涉及兒少法等等的問題涉及資安涉及個資涉及詐騙所以把這個平台裡面的這個帳號封掉但是我先講說今天小紅書是這個平台裡面有很多其他內容裡面其中有一些內容是涉及詐騙但是你們現在做法是直接把整個平台封掉你不覺得這樣違反比例原則嗎"},{"start":4989.935,"end":5009.574,"text":"這一部分其實在像剛剛委員提到過往的這個鳳林網等等我們確實說確實了解到說這個對它一個網域域名其實它是跟網域裡頭下頭有很多相對應的網頁其實也有網頁其實不能這樣子因為會錯殺無辜會比例原則問題那這一塊確實是有在考慮"},{"start":5010.034,"end":5032.612,"text":"考量但是小紅書這一塊他本身是因為他他本身在在中國大陸那邊本身對方有一個法律有個包容條款說他們的政府有需要說那他們的這個業者必須要提供相關資訊這是最大的治安的一個潛伏的讓他擔心的地方那這一塊其實是小紅書最大被人詬病的一些"},{"start":5033.55,"end":5042.861,"text":"的關鍵因素所在那當然他有另外涉炸的部分那當然是兩個加在一起那相關主管機關做一些處理我們都予以尊重"},{"start":5044.083,"end":5064.892,"text":"這個我要提醒NCC啦因為你們現在如果用把打詐條例視為這個霸王 等於是帝王條款用744條只要涉及詐騙你們都能夠把他這個整個網路把它封掉那我覺得可能會涉及到言論審查那這一塊NCC倒是沒有處理這一塊個案的部分目前不在NCC來處理那我們其實跟委員報告都是"},{"start":5066.153,"end":5085.293,"text":"网际网路其实也是三律共管我们都是优先请业者来做好自律那业者至于做不到做不好会有民众来申诉检举那第三方主委没关系这个东西我知道但是我刚刚讲的案例就是像Telegram他们在台湾也没有公司他们基本上你找不到负责人的"},{"start":5085.894,"end":5101.044,"text":"但是大家手機裡面很多還是繼續使用這個平台因為我們今天針對犯罪的部分我把它封禁掉大家不會有意見今天問題是說今天好像擴張解釋的是因為平台裡面有人犯罪所以你把平台封掉那照這個邏輯來講你把Google也封掉好了"},{"start":5101.624,"end":5129.652,"text":"因為很多的網很多的犯罪或是Facebook或是Meta或者是整個這個稅上面有很多的所謂部分的人犯罪但是你今天擴張解釋因為打炸條例你擴張解釋變成平台裡面有人犯罪懲處的不是那個人而已是整個平台的所有人都被封掉所以我覺得這部分我覺得NCC應該要有所謂的責任你們在內部會議裡面應該提出來你們的見解網際網路跟實體是兩件不同的事情處理方式應該是不一樣的"},{"start":5131.692,"end":5156.233,"text":"確實 我很講到重點那其實比較大的BITTECH相關的平台它其實在台灣都有一些相關的窗口也有法律代表那我們現在講的這個個案部分其實是相對跟他們是比較不一樣的所以這邊也是他們跟大平台所推的APP的一些差異所以我還是要提一下你剛剛講的大平台包含說之前數位部公告那幾個他們都有代理人但是我剛剛比如提到的"},{"start":5156.994,"end":5177.102,"text":"犯罪溫床最多使用的就是Telegram不管是洗洗錢這個比特幣還是各種這種虛擬貨幣的交易或者是各項奇怪的交易在Telegram平台上面非常多大家有時候警方也要辦但是你要封的時候是針對這個平台裡面的某個頻道把它封掉但是你不會把整個平台把它禁掉"},{"start":5177.782,"end":5201.586,"text":"我們並沒有 台灣的網域並沒有把Color Grande這網域鎖掉沒有把這個APP把它鎖掉是因為所以今天小紅書也是對我來講也是類似的概念今天小紅書裡面確實一定各種大型網路平台一定都會有人做一些違法的事情但是有人做違法的事情應該是針對這個當事人這個行為本身而不是把整個平台來把它禁掉我要提醒主委說你不能擴張解釋成這樣子 主委"},{"start":5202.308,"end":5229.035,"text":"對那我完全理解委員的意見確實就是在撇開資安這一塊比例的比例比例原則問題其實是一個重點但是暗關的這個這個這個通訊軟體他本身是有重大的資安那以現在資安就是國安的角度來看那相對的他這邊的他特點完全迥異於其他這個大大的平台的所提供的APP"},{"start":5229.744,"end":5258.944,"text":"那你們到底封小黃書是依據打詐條例還是依據治安我就覺得現在很亂了因為你們這個新聞稿出來這一整個週末各單位有各單位不同的說法一下說是詐騙主委現在又說是治安現在到底是依據哪一條因為這個尊重主管機關內政部跟出發部的一些處置的那這邊因為內政部已經發新聞稿那我們是是協同機關如果未來後續有NCC要協力的話我們會協力這邊我們當然是尊重主管機關的"},{"start":5260.584,"end":5283.111,"text":"主政的一些事項所以這個為什麼大家會常常覺得NCC有時候有跟沒有一樣這個案例我也不是要針對你但是今天大家覺得NCC你既然作為網際網路主管機關內政部他們當然負責治安負責打詐這個沒問題但是你們的專業意見你們對於網際網路這個東西這個概念是什麼我覺得你們應該提供專業意見給內政部"},{"start":5284.952,"end":5313.231,"text":"網際網路行政院的分工原則是說他對應實體由各目的事業主管機關來負責那小紅書本身也有廣告那廣告不提涉及到這個經濟數位經濟部分那不是由速發部來處理那裡就他涉詐涉詐部分當然就是內政部來主政那NCC的部分其實目前比較多的是兒少的相關的一些處理那基本上就是說他還是分散式立法的對應的各主管"},{"start":5314.451,"end":5337.348,"text":"對應各個分散式立法的目的世界中來統籌處理這樣治安的話當然都是書發部以上好 主委一個時間到了我最後要再講一下你們這個網信網路傳播政策的這個白皮書已經出審了那到底什麼時候會有一個比較完整的方向讓大家有一個依循的這個做法因為對我們來講今天會有這個這件事情發生有可能是因為我們所謂的網信網路"},{"start":5338.028,"end":5351.676,"text":"的這個相關的政策並沒有很明確的去定義他的這個角色跟定義他的這個分散是怎麼管理就像我們剛剛不斷在強調一件事情當初我們在歷史十二條的時候我們是針對立法的意旨應該是針對詐騙的網站"},{"start":5354.264,"end":5382.447,"text":"但是你們今天在執行的時候是把它擴張解釋的就是只要涉及的所以我覺得這是一個很大的問題就大家覺得說你們變成利用這個42條在做言論審查或是看人不開心的找個理由把它關掉大家感受就是這樣為什麼這個反彈大家網路上使用者的反彈會這麼大你今天把一些詐騙的網站把它關掉過去關了很多沒有人有意見你們的績效表現大家都說你們在做事情數位部也好NC也好"},{"start":5382.927,"end":5402.316,"text":"你們把過去的一些涉及詐騙的釣魚網站也好或者是金融網站也好把它關掉沒有人反彈大家都支持但今天大家反彈是因為你不是只有把所謂涉詐的平台裡面的這個帳號把它封掉你是把整個平台禁止使用問題在這邊所以我要拜託跟主委再講一下這事情你們第一個整個網路"},{"start":5402.896,"end":5427.727,"text":"我國的網路平台政策你們既然開了公聽會議要去做相關的規範那趕快提出來因為我想網路已經發展到今天這樣子各種新的平台已經出現我們那白皮書其實已經整理到差不多後續因為這屬於重大政策要經過委員會議來討論目前NCC沒有委員會議就比較沒有辦法進行最後十公尺的一些討論處理那就你們行政院趕快提名單提好的名單出來我們在那省好不好 主委謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":5431.121,"end":5449.739,"text":"好 感謝黃建豪委員感謝戴主委來 接下來我們先確認一下議事錄請黃建豪委員稍等一下請教各位委員對上次會議議事錄有沒有意見沒有意見 議事錄確定謝謝 接下來再請許智傑委員質詢"},{"start":5460.813,"end":5483.841,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請代理主委來 陳代理主委請委員長主委好所以剛針對那個黃委員問的我再補充問一下Meta GoogleTikTok 他們在台灣有沒有設法律代表"},{"start":5485.057,"end":5511.418,"text":"TikTok之外其他我確定有TikTok應該是有來在接洽處理TikTok也有TikTok目前未來也是美國公司嘛那小紅書有沒有設法律代表我的了解部分是沒有是的差別在這裡你自己當主委你自己要去搞清楚有我剛剛有跟黃委員報告那比如說政府有公文"},{"start":5513.11,"end":5541.327,"text":"就是有狀況給Meta Google TikTok他們公文有回應小紅書政府給他公文有沒有回應應該是已讀不回吧是的 已讀不回那詐騙受理案件Meta Google TikTok都有設窗口小紅書有沒有設窗口應該沒有好 那答案不是很清楚了吧"},{"start":5543.198,"end":5572.162,"text":"我希望說你們自己回答要具體就是說到底為什麼他會跟Meta會跟Google會跟TikTok不一樣至少他在台灣有法律代表我們要聯繫有窗口政府要聯繫有回應小紅素是這三個通通沒有那為什麼他會比較特別因為他自己做法就很特別跟其他的這些都不一樣"},{"start":5574.349,"end":5601.306,"text":"所以答案就很清楚我希望說主委你自己也要搞得很清楚回答要很清楚很具體所以這個其實也很不好管我們知道NCC很辛苦那個廣播電台是廣播電視法管對不對是那有線電視有廣有廣法有有線電視法那MOD"},{"start":5603.875,"end":5619.187,"text":"目前是用過往管理規則來管那包括衛星廣播嘛 對不對對 衛廣法目前很多的衛星頻道是衛廣法來對 所以這個都很具體嘛好 那我再請教一下 那是個平面媒體"},{"start":5620.506,"end":5648.8,"text":"平面媒體目前應該是文化部為主那文化部當然它管理的力道大概跟過往又稍微有不一樣因為那個出版法或者那個大概也已經廢除就是說它內容內容誰管內容紙媒嗎紙媒部分大部分而言還是文化部文化部那網路媒體呢"},{"start":5650.171,"end":5676.105,"text":"網路媒體現在的標準答案說法應該是看它的性質由各相關機關來管相關機關對 就假設它內容涉及到衛福部的相關這個耳哨 保護那就是由衛福部衛福部相關的作用法其實都已經訂了所以我剛剛跟報告說所以它內容有問題都是相關機關事業目的事業主管機關自己要管理"},{"start":5676.665,"end":5701.342,"text":"分散是立法然後分散是分到各相關部會來統則處理所以最後其實有爭議大部分都是去法院處理對不對有些是這樣子沒錯你網路媒體有登記公司那基本上好像是歸經濟部管那經濟部管是你這個公司有沒有問題對你公司運作的內容經濟部也沒管那麼多對不對"},{"start":5702.33,"end":5727.922,"text":"對 他負責登記而已大部分 對不對所以呢 這個都是屬於傳播嘛我們NCC的全名叫什麼通訊傳播委員會傳播嘛 對不對但是很多網路上的平台不見得是傳播有時它是UGC就是使用者生成的內容那一塊甚至是廣告那這邊就比較不是NCC的範疇"},{"start":5729.384,"end":5753.903,"text":"對啦 那我現在就是告訴你嘛平面媒體它有傳播的功能嘛 對不對對網路媒體當然你說的各自它內部自己的製作自己的內容啦等等的這個都個人的事情嘛但是現在網路媒體的傳播效能大不大大大 對不對所以以邏輯來講有關係到傳播的"},{"start":5757.182,"end":5776.344,"text":"我們叫做通訊傳播委員會嘛對不對但是這一塊因為行政院已經立定是分工所以變成行為管制如果他的雖然是自媒體雖然是UGC他的內容涉及到侵權涉及到智慧財產侵權其實就有相關對應的比方說智慧局會沒關係那我就針對傳播的部分嘛"},{"start":5777.318,"end":5789.295,"text":"因為它很複雜所以會牽涉到很多不同的單位這個我們都可以理解但是我們從邏輯來做思考就是說它有關於傳播的部分那應該是誰來管"},{"start":5790.58,"end":5814.4,"text":"那NCC負責在源頭端都是主要是該內那一塊那我目前網傳辦其實有處理這一塊我們希望能夠保障言論自由維護使用者權益那所以我們也是有做一些相關軟法目前雖然沒有委員會我們做一些軟法的一些訂定比方說我們過往剛剛很多部會都在分散立法我們就訂定一個立法的指引給相關部會參考"},{"start":5815.481,"end":5843.792,"text":"那另外民眾最多詬病是說很多是他跟平台間的一些互動申訴的部分我們也訂定這個申訴的質疑那當然網際網路上是主要是各方在互相互動的所以是多方利害關係人這部分要怎麼處理怎麼來互動我們也訂定利害關係人的質疑這些都是我們目前在處理的所以但是他表現在行為端他違法或怎麼樣其實都是回歸各相關目的世界專案機關來處理這違法通通到法院嘛"},{"start":5845.103,"end":5867.484,"text":"不知道 要跟民國幾年了有些是行政法行政機關都可以處理好 那我現在就是說我們從我們還是處理事情要有邏輯然後要有具體這樣子才會有效是所以我們來做一個簡單的邏輯思考那是不是說我們看到上個月"},{"start":5869.665,"end":5888.184,"text":"自律其實網路新聞其實他們也有成立自律聯盟這個算是蠻好的我們應該給他們掌聲那他們其實自己都願意自律去提高新聞品質跟公信力但是只有自律恐怕有一些人他就不自律嘛"},{"start":5890.28,"end":5908.449,"text":"對 所以我們是三律共管 自律 套律 法律對 所以我覺得法律還是有這個必要對 那比方說前一陣子某些個案在公共場所某些影片如果在網路上來發散他其實一樣是涉及到刑法的一些部分處理"},{"start":5908.871,"end":5929.062,"text":"所以我就說老師到法院太慢了可以行政處理可以優先速度比較快所以我們有廣播電視法有線廣播電視法跟衛星廣播電視法我們平面媒體網路媒體有沒有可能有一個NCC來制定一個相關的法規"},{"start":5931.945,"end":5948.425,"text":"針對傳播的部分因為他很複雜我知道那很複雜的部分我們實在是沒有辦法就是他蓋不同的目的失業主管機關有不同的觸犯不同的法律那個就是由各自法各自去相關的法律去管理"},{"start":5949.546,"end":5975.834,"text":"但是如果針對傳播的部分NCC可不可以有一個肩膀跟有一個法律把它制定一個相關的法規來處理我們剛剛跟委員報告說網際網路上的媒體這一塊其實也是三律共管在自律的部分現在九月份已經成立一個我知道我們有誇獎他們那目前"},{"start":5977.534,"end":5997.432,"text":"還沒有問事之前我們其實有訂定軟法剛剛我們總共要訂了五個的指引那未來如果時機成熟的話其實訂定相關的一些法律其實都是有可能的雖然我們110年110年這個數位中介法曾經提出過一次但是但是社會各界有所議論也沒有共識所以才會"},{"start":5998.553,"end":6025.835,"text":"維持現況剛好這幾年從110年到現在也剛好國際上的潮流其實也很多就是這個分散式立法特別是德國所以有沒有NCC已經有這個打算已經在做了那就是針對平面媒體平面媒體部分沒有平面媒體沒有就是網際網路上的你們先針對網際網路對好 那網際網路現在已經有在做了大概什麼時候可能會有結果"},{"start":6027.087,"end":6040.276,"text":"我們五個指引其實有些到年底都會有一兩個指引都可以出來那其他的可能明年會出來總共五個指引大概應該是有兩個今年到明年應該都可以年底現在已經12月了 來"},{"start":6041.989,"end":6068.036,"text":"我確定是有兩個指引其實已經可以這個月底已經不是年底了是這個月底對有兩個是可以出來沒問題有兩個可以出來對指引軟法那明年的其他三個什麼時候有些明年可以出來明年底以前剩下三個都可以出來明年底那還要一年"},{"start":6068.943,"end":6093.253,"text":"但我們會加快啦我是覺得就是今天很具體的建議啦反正跟傳播有關的我們又是傳播委員會嘛所以這個部分真的是必須有一個規則出來啦只是靠自律是真的不夠所以這個必須要有肩膀有擔當這個就必須讓NCC來承擔這樣OK嗎"},{"start":6094.653,"end":6117.604,"text":"網際網路部分我們已經在做了OK好沒問題那我們先看年底月底這兩個你就先公布出來然後明年的也先給我們預告一下讓我們大家民眾可以有所依詢也知道到底NCC要怎麼做這樣好不好好沒問題OK好那我們就等你的結果好OK謝謝"},{"start":6120.558,"end":6147.944,"text":"好 謝謝許智傑委員諮詢好 謝謝戴主委宣告一下剛剛在那個官員備詢台有撿到這一張悠遊卡看是哪一位官員調的再來前面來領取好 那接下來我們請洪孟愷召委諮詢"},{"start":6156.53,"end":6167.23,"text":"好謝謝我們請陳代理主委好請陳代理主委教委好好代理主委好代理主委我想"},{"start":6168.817,"end":6197.412,"text":"今天很負責任要來排審這個衛星廣播電視法就是希望我們能夠在委員會裡面好好的來針對每一個委員提出來的一個條文來做一個討論那更重要的是相關的爭議其實我們都要做一個釐清所以說這是本席在這個禮拜我排了這個懸答那我們就會在近期內我們再排主條審查就是希望說能夠來依主條但是捍衛新聞自由我想"},{"start":6198.868,"end":6215.351,"text":"我們應該都要站在同一條線因為民主法治言論自由新聞自由都非常的重要這一點是我希望我們不分朝野大家共同來捍衛今天NCC的報告特別有講到說新聞自由它其實是一個制度性的保障"},{"start":6216.411,"end":6236.526,"text":"但是本席更要講所謂制度性的保障你也不能無限上綱制度性的保障是新聞自由裡面所新聞自由是屬於制度性保障但是政府能夠在一定的範圍裡面管理跟規範媒體可是不得從根本上破壞媒體制度的存在或是多元性"},{"start":6237.347,"end":6250.134,"text":"我覺得這一點是剛剛好幾位委員他在提案說明的時候有提到如果說當一個電視台或是說一個新聞台他真的已經逾越了相關的規範的時候或是甚至法令的時候該處罰要處罰你該罰"},{"start":6254.332,"end":6272.561,"text":"多少的罰款還是多少的這個部分要處罰但絕對不是說從根本上面來破壞媒體制度讓他直接言論消失我想主委你應該可以很理解即便是大家在這個場域上有很多不同的意見或說我講的話也不一定可以重聽不一定能夠接受"},{"start":6273.101,"end":6301.804,"text":"如果说撇开我们是立法委员或是说代理主委的一个身份今天任何人在一个社会里面我讲了什么样不中听的话只要我没有迂返法令我没有污蔑甚至我没有做这个人这个相关的这个言语羞辱的话其实那就是意见表达那你能够说因为我不喜欢你的意见所以我要求你闭嘴或说甚至我就直接把你的喉咙给封起来胶布给贴起来不让你发声吗"},{"start":6304.091,"end":6325.989,"text":"謝謝委員理解委員的說法跟看法那確實言論自由其實普世的價值大家都在擁護這個自由那但是現在現行的一些法令規範如果說他觸及到這個必須要他自己要承擔的部分那依法行政的機關其實也必須要依法來行政處理"},{"start":6326.42,"end":6353.03,"text":"所以依法行政我想過去司法訴訟已經有看到了不管是中天新聞台或說相關的一個部分其實我們真的不需要因為政黨立場而有雙重標準所以我想請教因為現在有委員有提出相關的版本裡面有所謂如果說將來真的三讀通過的話中天新聞台可以在行政訴訟之前就恢復原本的台來復台"},{"start":6354.19,"end":6379.057,"text":"那我想請教NCC會尊重立法院的決議並且讓後續的程序繼續進行嗎各位報告那在立法修正通過前我們的表達意見就如今天的報告那如果立法通過的話行政機關都是依法行政我們當然會依照通過的法律來處理好行政機關會依照通過法律來處理我要提醒喔"},{"start":6379.597,"end":6407.619,"text":"因為現在行政院把很多立法院通過的法案即便是三省通過的法案三讀通過法案行政院可以置之不理包括軍人加薪行政院可以置之不理甚至還讀書一格創制一個民主國家沒有看過的說要先釋憲 釋憲通過之後才來處理才來回徵過去的這個薪水那剛剛代理主委已經講了"},{"start":6408.76,"end":6422.101,"text":"你不會採取釋憲的方式嘛只要立法院三讀通過的法案你就應該依法處理就依法處理因為你們是獨立自主的機關不受任何上面長官的壓力 對吧"},{"start":6422.965,"end":6443.389,"text":"公文報告一般的情況那當然是依法處理那依法行政依法處理但是如果法律上目前的法規架構如果賦予相關單位他有法令相關的一些救濟程序我相信他進行這個程序也是依法行政大概是我的看法是這樣子"},{"start":6443.689,"end":6466.898,"text":"戴主委 是你兩分鐘前跟兩分鐘後的態度完全不一樣沒有 是說一般情況之下我們當然會依法行政那我們是二級機關二級獨立機關正常情況之下就是因為你是獨立機關所以說本席才今天特別來質詢你也並且讓你好好的說明有沒有那個風骨有沒有那個專業有沒有那個獨立性而不是看上面辦事嘛"},{"start":6467.538,"end":6477.154,"text":"其實我覺得最遺憾的地方就是過去到現在為什麼NCD讓人家沒有辦法接受或是說NCD讓國人普遍信賴不夠就是因為每一次都覺得是說你們就有上面的壓力"},{"start":6478.466,"end":6506.396,"text":"就如同剛剛本席其實剛剛林國成委員林國成召委在質詢的時候他一開始開宗明義問說那現在委員徵詢的狀況怎麼樣你也不清楚因為權責不在是 權責不在你也因此像這樣子的一個委員的一個部分我們會在總質詢的時候詢問行政院長但是本席要求你的是當你要依法行政的時候就應該依法行政你過去 你剛剛講的那部分就是"},{"start":6507.176,"end":6527.89,"text":"行政 獨立行政機關的一個態度問題對 我剛剛跟趙偉報告就是說如果這個法律 這個衛管法修正通過那相關假設他最終定案下來我們當然是依法執行這個法律好 依法執行 來那個代理主委 那請教一下最近我們本期也看到另外一個新聞我不知道您應該也有看到"},{"start":6528.931,"end":6547.145,"text":"前總統陳水扁那也是現在在服刑的受刑人雖然他現在保外就醫但是他是在服刑當中還有兩個案件還沒有審理但居然我們看到有一個獨家新聞是他明年要在新聞台裡面主持節目"},{"start":6548.807,"end":6577.586,"text":"這個有看到就報導但是跟委員報告來 兩個部分第一 這個新聞台它可以有主持政論節目嗎當初在設定的時候這個新聞台有允許或者說它自己有承諾說它不主持它沒有要開設政論節目現況它是不能開政論節目好 所以它沒有辦法開政論節目那第二 受刑人能夠上新聞台它的當初有所謂的四部條款現在當然已經蕩然無存了"},{"start":6578.263,"end":6594.364,"text":"在我們偉大民進黨政府主政之下我們司法好像是就是可以雙重標準到無遠弗屆的地步讓獸行人趴趴走除了專訪以外他甚至他可以直接主持節目網路上的他主持節目我不知道戴主委有沒有看過"},{"start":6595.839,"end":6619.816,"text":"有稍微看過你也看過所以我們的高官都知道說我們受刑人有在主持節目結果就只有我們的中間就只有我們的法務部就只有我們的執法單位完全把眼睛遮起來好那我現在具體請教如果說明年新聞台他直接邀請這個受刑人上他的頻道來主持節目NCC要怎麼處理"},{"start":6620.421,"end":6640.974,"text":"好 兩個部分回答第一個部分那報導所指涉的那個電視台目前它官網也沒有披露什麼相關這個消息那我們會持續來關注來注意這個處理那剛剛 照我提到前半部部分那是法務部的權責我們這邊就要予以尊重那個前半部"},{"start":6641.533,"end":6665.847,"text":"就是說他是受刑人身分然後啪啪走這一塊然後這一塊媒體管理不是NCC的責任嗎我說兩部分嘛媒體管理這一塊相關的電視台他目前是不能開政論節目不能開政論節目那他能不能請受刑人如果說他今天他把它變成是談話性節目他故意拐一個橋門不是政論節目我只有請一個來賓一對一對談"},{"start":6668.348,"end":6693.397,"text":"他能不能主持這個如果他主持的不是政論性節目那當然就不涉及他能主持嗎受刑人可以在我們現在新聞台裡面然後直接上新聞台來主持節目然後我們NCC完全完全放任我們回答兩個部分是在那個電視台目前是不能開政論節目的沒有政論節目嘛對你已經開中民營講了這本來也是當初那個新聞台設定的一個要旨嘛好"},{"start":6693.857,"end":6708.058,"text":"那沒有政論節目但我現在是說他有沒有開巧門 有啊我們也看到他現在不是政論節目但他就找一個來賓一對一對談啊讓那個來賓 那個來賓也是政治人物也是政論節目的常客但是他就讓他一對一對談啊"},{"start":6710.04,"end":6731.196,"text":"那這樣子算什麼 算談話性節目只是談話內容是正論可以這樣子取巧嗎我們會在程序上來找相關專家學者來處理還要找專家學者來處理 來主委 知不知道這一個新聞台它現在有這樣子的一個取巧知道"},{"start":6734.006,"end":6755.661,"text":"我們的NCC偉大的獨立機關NCC知道人家在這邊做這個取巧但是不講不罰沒有 但是我們已經在處理了來 做了什麼處理我們發函請他陳述意見然後我們內部也有其他人家開這個節目開多久了那你們現在發函蝸牛在爬他先前的大選進來講我們已經已經處罰警告了"},{"start":6759.02,"end":6786.398,"text":"處罰警告對 先前的那這是有開罰嗎警告就是一種處罰警告就是一種處罰對那在評鑑換上所以你敢講本席不太敢聽說實在話對於不同的標準所以說我們上一段質詢本席才在講你的制度性保障新聞自由你可以對一家電視台直接到時候用關台的方式"},{"start":6787.811,"end":6799.067,"text":"讓他可以直接死無葬身之地關起他的喉嚨關起他的嘴巴讓他不能再發聲現在對另外一家新聞台他明明就已經違反了當初他設定時候"},{"start":6800.643,"end":6825.171,"text":"的條件不能政論節目 結果我們NCC知道他沒有開政論節目 大家開一個談話性節目 大家討論政論我沒有在處理 找來賓來聊那個來賓就是政論節目的常客然後結果我們NCC知道但是我們不處理或是我們到最後講說警告就是一種處理不是 現在的我們不是不處理 已經在處理當中那如果最後認定上說要罰 我們都會依法行政來該罰就罰"},{"start":6828.464,"end":6854.705,"text":"主委 是本席最後自己想請教如果最後他的受刑人真的在這個新聞台裡面開節目NCC怎麼做就是我們會提都是用內部的程序來認定說他這樣子有沒有構成說他就是那個震動性節目如果是的話我們當然會 他會來罰所以我們NCC可以那麼消極那他就是沒有 我已經在處理了現在他已經是 他開獨家耶"},{"start":6857.508,"end":6879.582,"text":"這是對公權力的挑戰吧我今天不管藍綠黨派如果說今天有任何一個受刑人第一他可以在中華民國法令保障之下保外就醫然後啪啪走手也不抖了說話邏輯思考非常的完整然後結果他要關十年二十年就完全不用審完全不用看他今天不是被特赦"},{"start":6880.342,"end":6895.917,"text":"跟周圍報告結果他今天趴趴走之後然後就直接預告還發獨家我覺得今天我們說不定這樣子持續完畢之後還幫他衝點閱率還幫他抽收視率然後結果如果說他發獨家然後之後真的開了節目結果我們NCC還在後面"},{"start":6897.683,"end":6917.177,"text":"撥接 卡 然後再說我們再來蒐集資料這個是未來式它的官網沒有披露變成事實之後我們一定會依法來處理目前它是披露是未來式但是該家公司它的官網其實也沒有我只想請教一下這樣是不是有違法的行為"},{"start":6918.098,"end":6942.137,"text":"因為目前是這是違法的行為就是我依照剛剛好 如果你這樣講他這樣子的一個獨家新聞是不是違法的行為如果他是真正性節目的話就是違反他當初的我們對他的一些拘束就要開罰所以說代理主委已經講了這是一個違法的行為如果我們是最後認定是 我就說現在新聞嘛你有看到那新聞報導出來吧"},{"start":6944.147,"end":6973.307,"text":"新聞有報導但是我們去了解該家公司其實他的官網其實還沒有披露任何東西我們會持續關注因為這個是明年還沒發生事實那任何行為必須要有事實基礎主委本席現在只確認就是說他是違法行為所以說已經確認這是違法行為那如果說他真的做了一個違法行為的時候該依法處置就要依法處置不要再讓國人認為是說NCC張CC看到不同顏色就轉彎可以嗎"},{"start":6973.927,"end":6979.793,"text":"可以如果他開的是這個節目我們就會處理好謝謝我們黃木凱委員的質詢接下來請陳雪山委員質詢好謝謝趙偉老師請陳主委來陳代理主委請"},{"start":7004.099,"end":7030.317,"text":"各位早馬祖防衛指揮部有六十餘位官兵四官兵那麼跟那個炸團勾結盜買人頭這個案子你知道嗎有稍微看到媒體報導稍微看到 有沒有去了解我沒有請我們的相關的同仁去跟相關機關來進行了解"},{"start":7032.694,"end":7046.229,"text":"這個案情發生在軍中我們國軍部隊被匪諜侵入現在又被炸團侵入 這還得了你們現在打炸的成效怎麼樣"},{"start":7047.626,"end":7067.551,"text":"在我們NCE負責的堵炸的這一塊我們會持續努力那比方說從兩年以前這個國際來化這邊當時是相對是比較大團利用的管道目前這一塊都比較已經被我們抑制住了那目前還有其他的利用IPPBS還有"},{"start":7068.931,"end":7097.517,"text":"那個發號碼不顯示這一塊那我們也在處理那我們已經提出這個請電信業者來配合明年五月底以前這個不顯示來電不顯示號碼的來電部分要發出語音警告就類似現在國際電話沒有 現在像你NCC跟速發部跟警政署內政部警政署你們有沒有跟國軍的單位也做一個橫向的聯繫因為駁斥你們也是很複雜的"},{"start":7100.024,"end":7123.335,"text":"如果達沙中心這邊應該會有統合相關部會那但是以國軍的弟兄如果他平時他放假怎麼樣他也是電信使用者的話這一塊其實是無分他是不是國軍與否那他申請就是要KYC部隊的管理是非常軍事管理非常嚴格的是不是作戰單位他的軍事的管理是非常嚴格的怎麼會發生這樣的事情"},{"start":7124.758,"end":7153.206,"text":"我覺得你們回去以後跟國防部要密切的聯繫檢討好不好好 我們透過指揮中心來共同來處理另外這個NCC是不是一個獨立行使職權的機關是 個案上一定是剛才幾位委員也講了你們NCC被人家記為張CC你有沒有聽過這個名詞有你什麼時候把它修正回來嘛NCC就是NCC嘛你個人當主委你有沒有覺得你是不是在獨立行使職權"},{"start":7154.011,"end":7180.692,"text":"你個人的感覺我覺得是是喔是我覺得不是耶是嗎你這90%應該是90%不是10%的是啦那10%是政策的政策是整個行政院團隊一體的欸你們怎麼可以跟著政策走就這樣走勒個案是獨立機關61大法官61號的解釋已經解釋這樣子了個案在NCC是立法院三讀通過的東西"},{"start":7182.685,"end":7212.018,"text":"行政院每一樣都給他行職去憲法大法官去解釋 釋憲那不要立法院就好了 要立法院幹什麼你會覺得立法院是多餘的我覺得立法院可以撤銷啦中華民國的五權憲法 立法院可以不要了加個大法官就好了大法官就可以決定一切了大法官全部都是執政黨提名的人選那他決定就好了嘛 要立法院幹什麼還要打架吵架吵吵鬧鬧是不是"},{"start":7213.177,"end":7236.042,"text":"我相信大法官都會本於自身專業來獨立行使職權好 他講的他獨立行使職權就跟陳儒NCC講的獨立行使職權你們NCC委員我們讓你過關了過關以後怎麼樣你中間你會恢復嗎你搞不好把TVBS再給他砍掉"},{"start":7237.238,"end":7262.191,"text":"我前幾天質詢現在什麼電視台啊每天罵綠的舞台就是罵藍的就是罵藍的對不對TVBS我看罵綠的也還少他也怕他罵得太過分的話TVBS你把他關台了新聞台都有表意自由那全部 乾脆全部啊你NCC主導之下全部把他變成綠的算了是不是跟最近那個哪一國 韋國的選舉"},{"start":7265.305,"end":7286.119,"text":"有反對的人通通不會報導那你跟中國大陸有什麼兩樣 一樣嘛台灣跟中國大陸有什麼兩樣人家中國大陸經濟在起飛啊你去看看人家的建設怎麼樣 我們台灣建設的什麼我不是說自己在嘲笑自己啦 對不對去看看嘛 你不要媒體在那邊騙老百姓啊"},{"start":7287.018,"end":7314.424,"text":"台灣媒體目前是百花齊放是多元意見的呈現都在吵啊 都在罵啊 每天罵反正反正提出一個東西他就罵他提出一個東西就罵他把他罵到臭為止嘛 就這樣子啊這個政治喔外面有敵人 內部又不團結怎麼團結得起來這樣呢 是不是正面來看也是監督的力量不過你媒體喔 媒體有很大的責任我跟你講"},{"start":7315.185,"end":7341.68,"text":"那我請問中天復臺如果我們三讀通過你會給他復臺嗎你不是依法行政我們絕對是依法行政但是依法行政會給他復臺嗎如果法律相關的一些究竟程序相關再提大法官立法院不要算了嘛要立法院幹什麼你會不會覺得立法院是不是多餘的我覺得我當立法院在這邊我即使提一個案子三讀通過有個屁用嘛三讀通過"},{"start":7342.952,"end":7355.883,"text":"以前刪除通過是很慎重的行政院要總辭 失敗要總辭的現在可以副議八次 九次 十次就一百次嘛什麼五權憲法 狗屁啊好 我再問你2003年 台灣自由的浪潮雲起我們弄了一個廣電三法"},{"start":7371.117,"end":7391.885,"text":"黨政軍退出媒體,我請問黨政軍退出媒體了嗎?你門心是問黨政軍退出媒體了嗎?我們在執行這個法令,如果他不小心誤觸,他沒有做到的話就會受罰。只有你不知道啦,老百姓全部都知道。"},{"start":7392.861,"end":7415.631,"text":"啊 你問那個彰化以北的 全部都知道只有彰化以南的不知道他連TVBS有的飯店裡面都不放了這有這樣子 台灣怎麼很奇怪啊這個地方好 另外就是這個陸續修正以後 黨政運推動盤陸續修正以後那有的一個議員他持股 持了一股 欸 他就不能換照囉"},{"start":7417.689,"end":7442.727,"text":"對 所以就突然你們現在怎麼處理我們現在就是因為也是純粹依法行政所以該都是對方一定會提會提起行政訴訟那我們也會去應訴然後很多案子確實如委員提案所顯示的他不合理講的有的跟沒有的一樣嘛就是規則對象不合理是不是要去打官司要去一審二審三審是不是再又到大法官那裡去了是不是這樣子"},{"start":7444.066,"end":7469.968,"text":"大致是這樣我是沒有念書有念書我也想去當大法官太好了大法官可以頂頂立法院113個委員現在有的只買了一張議員買了一張還有政黨人員在公開的市場他買下很少的股票"},{"start":7472.332,"end":7501.824,"text":"但是他沒有沒有做經營啊這個在換到以後也會有困難嗎所以這是不合理的地方所以確實就是黨軍軍條款需要做適度的一些修正調整你們有一些能夠修的把它修一修嘛好不好好沒問題我們其實內部幕僚作業都有持續在更新我們的版本與時俱進再做調整好啦我想NCC你對中天的事情有沒有慎重我們將來如果提案修法的時候如果三讀通過"},{"start":7503.325,"end":7527.545,"text":"我希望看到你依法行政好不好你不要再拿到行政演習 再來搞什麼復議啊什麼大法官解釋啊那我真的 台灣的立法 台灣的司法立法沒有用了好不好 謝謝啦謝謝委員好 謝謝陳學生委員好 代理座也請回再請李昆哲委員那李昆哲委員質詢完畢之後我們休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7534.958,"end":7558.705,"text":"謝謝趙委請一下陳代理主委陳代理主委請還有司法院林法官來林法官請趙委好陳代理主委好有關於廣電法第17條的修正案部分的委員有相關的提案就是說衛星廣播電視的事業執照如果遭到註銷廢止"},{"start":7560.205,"end":7588.084,"text":"他如果提起行政訴訟在訴願期間或者是行政訴訟還沒有確定判決之前執照繼續的有效那修正通過之後他的效力是溯及既往而且適用徵訟中的一個案件那這樣的一個立法的旨意最主要會造成行政機關的行政處分無效化這樣的一個"},{"start":7591.486,"end":7615.58,"text":"執行這樣的一個修正那當然行政機關的這樣的按照目前的現行法制他的行政執行力是一個重要的一個處分我先請教一下司法院林法官那目前這樣的一個修正案是否符合行政訴訟法的一個基本原則來請說明謝謝委員吹詢"},{"start":7616.34,"end":7638.109,"text":"那關於這個行政訴訟法在116條第一項跟第三項有規定就是我國的法治是以救濟不停止原處分的效力為原則以停止為例外情況那如果在個案上如果發生有重大損失或是避免緊急急迫危險有必要的情況或者是在處分執行難以回復重大損害或有急迫緊急的話是例外賦予"},{"start":7638.989,"end":7660.644,"text":"當事人在行政訴訟法依照行政訴訟法116條第三項或者是通話298條第二項來申請定暫時狀態處分那是讓法官能夠在個案中去橫平彼此的這個利益權衡來決定這個是不是有暫時權高比好謝謝林法官我請教你這樣的一個修正案符不符合行政訴訟法的基本原則"},{"start":7663.187,"end":7684.206,"text":"那關於這個這個提案的話就是本院的意見是有提出說這個可能是跟現行的116條這個精神是不同的不過因為我們116條其實是有一個處罰法律令有規定的一個處疏條款所以我們還是尊重這個主管機關以及大院的一個立法形成自由謝謝"},{"start":7684.847,"end":7705.833,"text":"好如果按照相關的這種行政處分無效化如果這樣17條修正可行的話那其他相關的新的違建我們必須是急報其差如果他提起行政救濟或訴訟是否就要暫時緩差如果我們的目前的"},{"start":7707.053,"end":7731.121,"text":"廣告的食品或者是藥品它的成分有爭議那我們行政處問說你不能賣那他也提起行政訴訟或者是相關的訴願在還沒有確定之前他還可以繼續賣嗎或者是詐騙廣告他認為他沒有詐騙但是我們認定他有詐騙的這樣的一個疑義的時候它是否還可以繼續的存在這就是我們今天要討論"},{"start":7732.401,"end":7758.4,"text":"相關的這種行政處分無效化必須嚴肅來面對的議題我請教一下陳主委請林法官回座休息陳主委有關於這樣的一個行政無效化在現行的法律行政執行率是處分的一個重要的一個過程那我請教一下這樣的一個行政執行率它對於維護廣電秩序的重要性是什麼來說明一下"},{"start":7758.72,"end":7787.378,"text":"是 谢谢赵伟那我们就举一个假设有一台电视台它是很喜欢播色心山跟暴力假设这个法通过之后假设我们不与它换照然后它一样再借着提行的诉讼来继续来营业的话其实会有两个部分的影响第一个在媒体业界而言其实它会产生媒体生态的负面牵引"},{"start":7788.223,"end":7812.722,"text":"那其他人就會效法那會造成整體這個媒體的內容向下沉淪那也會破壞這個守法或很健康媒體的一些競爭基礎假設色辛山暴力的電視台他雖然被NCC沒有給他換照可是他藉著訴訟繼續營運的話那廣告又持續投放這個是不健康的"},{"start":7813.402,"end":7834.945,"text":"那對社會對公共利益的部分的話大概又分為三個指點第一點它會對社會風氣跟價值觀的影響它會弱化社會規範的感覺那認為說這種情況是OK嗎也會正常化偏差行為這不是我們要的也會侵蝕公共道德跟文化品質"},{"start":7835.706,"end":7854.319,"text":"因為我們都知道媒體有文化引導的作用那如果這樣的媒體沒有辦法透過建立機關給它適時的遏止那這種情況之後會越來越劣化那它對民主社會跟公共討論品質其實是有所損害的那如果媒體大量生產這種刺激性"},{"start":7855.98,"end":7881.594,"text":"不良的內容那因為這個法的通過其實會讓這個弱化公民對這深度議題的一些關注的能力那更不要講說假設他是從一直一直在播出暴力的內容又不受這個這個沒辦法讓他離開這個平台的話他對治安對公共安全是有潛在的影響他是鼓勵犯罪模仿"},{"start":7882.034,"end":7898.902,"text":"那也會弱化大家對犯罪後果的一些認知這些都是對公共政策跟監管機關的形成一個壓力那主管機關會被這個法定變成說主管機關的可信度會讓民眾以為說這個已經沒有了"},{"start":7901.744,"end":7919.001,"text":"謝謝陳代理主委我想維護新聞自由是全民大家共同的期待與責任那維護新聞自由當然最重要的要靠自律跟他律自律就是新聞媒體必須要遵守相關的新聞規範來自我檢視"},{"start":7921.283,"end":7949.37,"text":"那他律呢媒體的他律就是要接受社會其他人輿論或是政府依照法令的一個監督那相關的這樣的一個自律跟他律最重要就是建立一種制度性的一種保障這就是林子儀大法官所提的制度性的新聞自由的保障就是透過這樣的一個制度性自律跟他律的這樣的一個精神"},{"start":7950.871,"end":7975.684,"text":"來維護這樣的一個廣電秩序讓廣電的新聞自由能夠公平自由多元的一個發展那現在相關的他律的部分不管是評鑑或是換照是一個重要的過程那相關的評鑑跟換照對於維護廣電秩序以及新聞自由有什麼重要性來說明一下"},{"start":7976.69,"end":8005.309,"text":"平均換照其實可以讓如果這個媒體經營有比較不好的地方可以讓他有一個即時糾正的機制讓他來及早來處理那如果這塊這個法通過的話那其實對應的這一部分必須要相應的來調整怎麼說呢如果這個特別的法通過是在結構上給他開了一條比較鬆綁的路在這個平衡上那行為管制這邊我個人認為說在"},{"start":8007.011,"end":8013.401,"text":"裁罰在罰則那邊其實要相應的做一些調整簡單來講就是要更嚴格"},{"start":8014.574,"end":8039.034,"text":"那對於新聞自由這是憲法上保障的一種制度性的保障這樣的保障就是國家對媒體的管制並不是限制性的這種限制言論而是要維護新聞機構健全的運作這才是我們對於新聞自由一個重要的保障"},{"start":8039.854,"end":8055.588,"text":"讓他能夠有多元民主自由的一個市場的一個發聲這是我們NCC一個重要的責任那針對第17條的一個修正那NCC的說明必須讓你來做一個簡單的一個補充"},{"start":8057.093,"end":8082.437,"text":"好那謝謝張偉那陳主任剛剛照所講到其實憲法對過往的大法官509對言論自由有表明說其實言論自由不是無限無限為所必為的必須要有一定的局數在廣電媒體這一塊大法官的364號解釋也一定說明這個主管就是政府機關其實可以對他做一些一定必要的一些處理這就是剛剛文報告所提到的"},{"start":8082.757,"end":8110.472,"text":"制度性的保障是要搭配一個它相對的權利與義務其實是並存的那它有的制度性的保障當然要付出相對性的一些自我節制的一些規範謝謝對於新聞自由我們憲法以及大法官的認知就是要建立制度性的一個保障保障廣電的新聞自由媒體他們能夠民主多元的一個健全的發展這是我們要共同努力的一個目標"},{"start":8111.897,"end":8120.354,"text":"謝謝趙偉 謝謝好 謝謝李崑澤 趙偉代理主委請回那我們交通委員會休息十分鐘十分鐘之後繼續開會"},{"start":8152.582,"end":8152.602,"text":"好"},{"start":8176.201,"end":8181.962,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8223.971,"end":8231.733,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8250.458,"end":8263.525,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8288.965,"end":8303.389,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8317.995,"end":8323.473,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8339.974,"end":8367.5,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8728.444,"end":8733.966,"text":"好 感謝交通委員會現在繼續開會我們請再來何欣淳委員質詢好 謝謝主席那我們是不是請陳代理主委來 陳代理主委請"},{"start":8748.851,"end":8765.399,"text":"好 謝謝孟愷主委好我想一直以來我對NCC的要求那就是對我們兒少一定要守護還有打擊詐騙那第一個我諮詢了很多次也提案來修法"},{"start":8766.199,"end":8784.673,"text":"譬如說我們對於這個兒少的一個權益我們的電信管理很重要我還記得我還曾經要求NCC的這個所謂的兒少白皮書一定要趕快出來我知道你們正在努力當中但是我先講譬如說我們三讀通過"},{"start":8785.694,"end":8804.254,"text":"家中持有兒少性影像的刑責這個是在我們的兒少性剝削防治條例以及刑法的修法我有提案在今年我們還有三讀通過就是要納管二類的電信業者就是電信管理法我為什麼會講這兩件事情因為我們知道"},{"start":8805.155,"end":8831.852,"text":"像類似創意私房這樣子的侵犯了兒少的這個性影像那剝削了兒少讓這個社會還有呢大眾家長等等都非常的不安那這牽涉到的就是什麼他們的管道流通的通路是來自於二類電信是其中一個流通管道所以呢這個跟NCC非常有這個責任要去"},{"start":8832.652,"end":8856.002,"text":"防止而且要去能夠管理二類電信業者這是第一個第二個跟這個打擊詐騙有關也是一樣包括我們打詐的專法那我有提案那也三讀通過那我也持續的在監督尤其在專法通過之後到現在那NCC打詐的一個成績單成效到底在哪裡這個呢為什麼我又這麼說因為這牽涉到"},{"start":8858.783,"end":8877.677,"text":"也是NCC主管的業務二類電信的管理來下一頁我們在2025的6月18號電信管理法三讀確實有納管的二類電信2025的7月2號公佈7月4號生效但是我們有了一個過渡期"},{"start":8878.197,"end":8895.67,"text":"修法後的一年內要向NCC登記那大家都會說我們剛剛提到了不管是要守護兒少或者是要打擊詐騙就是納管二類電信的這個所謂的第一個轉售電話號碼第二個提供上網寬頻服務的業者因為這是"},{"start":8897.291,"end":8922.776,"text":"這是什麼詐騙訊息資訊的一個流通的大量流通的管道第二個兒童少年的這個性剝削性影像的這些資訊影片影音等等也都經常而且是大量的透過所謂的寬頻服務的業者去轉售去轉播那這個東西我們修法之後我的疑問是就能夠杜絕詐騙就能夠守護兒少嗎"},{"start":8925.777,"end":8947.14,"text":"因為我們NCC在對外的這個說帖裡面跟對媒體宣誓對國人說來為了要全面堵炸所以第二類電信納管那我們都支持 朝野都支持但是來下一頁我為什麼會一個問號因為修法之後我們看到"},{"start":8948.101,"end":8966.458,"text":"上個禮拜還有媒體還有我們台中市警察局查獲詐騙集團勾結二類電信業者行詐而且這一次在台中市發生警察局所查獲的這個二類電信業者跟詐騙集團發花量發了40萬通"},{"start":8970.902,"end":8991.108,"text":"超過300人受害 財損超過新台幣3億那這個詐騙的手法是什麼他利用境外的詐騙機房然後我們國內的二類電信業者提供線路訊號落地偽裝成本國式化進行詐騙這個是修法後 還是這樣子 主委"},{"start":8995.74,"end":9008.703,"text":"難怪我會有一個問號我想國人也都這個問號修法之後就能夠杜絕詐騙守護兒少嗎這個例子主委你知道嗎知道 那有沒有進行了解"},{"start":9009.524,"end":9023.83,"text":"有 這個其實我們都有 先前就已經有在提出相關對策那對策是什麼 告訴我們好 那其實剛剛委員提到的他的態樣其實是利用網路電話然後在台灣落地之後又透過這個號碼批發轉送的方式來帶出這個"},{"start":9028.113,"end":9050.69,"text":"在地端的一些社會號碼那這一塊我們有在處理這個IPPBS設備這一塊我們有要求這個相關的這個海關那邊能夠跟他協作做一些相關貨品列號的管制那未來其實在針對這個化物部分主委你剛剛你那一點再說更清楚一點你的意思是說相關的設備"},{"start":9052.869,"end":9076.945,"text":"詐騙集團跟二類電信業者他們的這個流通管道的相關的硬體設備你有要求海關要積極的查扣防止進入台灣嗎如果他是屬於電信終端設備要NC認證沒有認證的我們就給他查扣我記得上次我們也有人問你海關人攔的那些平行輸入的自己帶進來的那怎麼攔"},{"start":9078.722,"end":9104.279,"text":"那這邊就是我們有輔助就是從電信業者端如果他的信務行為是異常的那目前我們也要求電信業者修他的服務契約只要發現這個異常的就根據打造條例修了嗎你要求他修了已經修了而且所有的電信業者都已經修了行網顧網都修了所以只要他化物異常的業者就可以給他斷話或者相關做一些通報處理其實這一塊我們都持續在處理得斷話"},{"start":9108.441,"end":9127.054,"text":"只有得不是因沒有強制性嗎有些特殊情況但是通常我們都給他業者通常都把斷了請他回來做KYC如果他不願意回來通常都是涉詐的我們都會請我聽到你這樣的說明的時候我就認為說那你應該還要再跟這些電信業者還要再強硬的溝通"},{"start":9128.132,"end":9146.975,"text":"那你的修改契約裡面是得因為這個訊誤異常我們跟他是否就是從事詐騙這個等號等過去會有點危險那我們主委NCC這邊是不是可以去進一步的去研析各種樣態然後可以把"},{"start":9147.896,"end":9168.644,"text":"把每個樣態把它理清楚而且那條列式的讓這些電信業者能夠有強制性的阻絕詐騙的一個態度立場跟方法去做這個是你可以做的我們已經做其實有跟業者都討論過那有些太陽業者先把它斷後終止他們部分的服務"},{"start":9169.264,"end":9192.375,"text":"那他不敢回來 KYC通常都是涉障這邊我們都跟檢警調來合作那甚至於說把這個IPPS所看到撈到的那色化號碼我們都提供給165那邊來處理甚至他就間接透過高檢署給相關的平台數位平台那給他斷掉他因為那個號碼來從事這個申請帳號部分那這邊都有在一些把他的帳號一併都剷除掉"},{"start":9196.898,"end":9221.875,"text":"這個我知道警政署上次應該說上個禮拜在內政委員會曾經對於這個防詐、堵詐、打詐有一個專案報告那我在裡面的資料看到確實它有阻斷的門號還有呢停播這個電話通訊等等我相信是跟NCC合作而去要求電信業者但是呢我覺得還不夠因為我看那個數字遠遠"},{"start":9224.156,"end":9252.808,"text":"不及國人的認為因為國人認為我們的詐騙太嚴重了所以我還是認為NCC應該再進一步的去跟跨部會合作跟內政部警政署跟其他單位跨部會合作好好的就這個二類電信業者可能在這個詐騙集團裡面扮演的關鍵角色如果我們可以在這裡做斷點那才能夠有效的防止國人被詐"},{"start":9253.368,"end":9268.724,"text":"是我们都会持续努力那目前就是透过两个部会我们把这个设诈的门号告诉透过检警调透过高检署通告出发部所主管的那些平台把他平台上因为那些门号去注册的那些账号都砍掉"},{"start":9269.363,"end":9298.442,"text":"好但是呢你們的效率不夠下一頁為什麼我們二類電信納管從修法到現在那已經半年了以我抓了一下你們的數字修法施行前我曾經質詢過你你告訴我總共盤點手中掌握216家是二類電信業者那呢在當時候4月份的時候你說已登記65家那我們修法6月修法之後到現在"},{"start":9299.563,"end":9308.537,"text":"才登記75家也就是說在這半年裡面只有增加了10家的業者來登記來納管那還有141家業者呢"},{"start":9313.854,"end":9330.624,"text":"216是電信法時期的二類二類的它這個大項目下面有包括IASB包括其他的一些語音轉送等等的部分IASB跟這個MVMO我都幫你列出來ISB MVMO等等它目前幾乎都有用"},{"start":9332.685,"end":9341.487,"text":"有從事的都有來登記 但是其他是二類二類是個大集合 裡頭有ISB 有MVMOISB MVMO 目前都有來登記"},{"start":9342.15,"end":9362.683,"text":"目前都有來登記那你請會後給我一個完整的來登記的業者名單我們希望不能漏網為什麼因為呢到那個一年的過渡期裡面這個過渡期還有半年那這半年裡面到底有沒有業者還沒來登記的那還有在這個過渡期裡面那NCC如何監管這個呢都會"},{"start":9363.904,"end":9392.046,"text":"直接影響到我剛剛講的守護兒少還有打擊詐騙的成效所以拜託主委會後給我一個詳細的資料好不好一定要好好的要全部來要求登記納管我們要能夠掌握才能夠有斷點阻詐防止國人被騙守護兒少的權益跟他的身體好不好好我們會繼續努力謝謝謝謝何清淳委員來會後再提供相關資料"},{"start":9394.329,"end":9422.456,"text":"好 接下來再請林俊憲委員資訊好 謝謝主席本席邀請我們NCC陳代主委陳代主委請文豪主委好 主委我們今天我先跟你關心一下今天大家都很關心我們這個打炸的事情"},{"start":9423.806,"end":9429.9,"text":"那打炸四把通過以後到底有沒有一些進步就政府的打炸的那個成效來看"},{"start":9431.124,"end":9457.439,"text":"我看我們那個財損就被騙的財損數從去年的8月公告是138億下降到今年10月剩60億是有一些進步啦但是我覺得仍然還是要努力只要詐騙存在我們就應該要持續的來政府就打造方面不能鬆懈"},{"start":9459.06,"end":9479.979,"text":"受理的案件數從21,244件下降到13,673件就是去年的10月跟今年6月做一個比較請問主委知道詐騙最多的是哪一類型的"},{"start":9480.981,"end":9494.258,"text":"就是這邊購物跟投資詐騙購物最多啦就是其實它NC是負責賭詐其實前面還有懲詐後面還有懲詐還有金管會的一些"},{"start":9495.9,"end":9497.401,"text":"你先不要推 網路推到速發部去"},{"start":9526.4,"end":9552.549,"text":"合作啦 兩個部會合作你們本來就要合作我今天就是要講你跟蘇發部很多地方根本沒有合作啦你們跨一個單位啊那兩邊啊這個資訊就有嚴重落差啦你看網路購屋詐騙幾件 96件件數最多啦你看他財損金額雖然不高647萬但是因為啊這個會影響到民眾"},{"start":9553.909,"end":9578.257,"text":"這個情緒很不滿 因為它件數很多現代人很常在網路上購物買東西那就會發 有那種感覺到處都是陷阱那邊購物要吃的東西就歡樂 怕拿到詐騙所以這種都會影響到國民的情緒所以既然它排名第一 網路購物詐騙那一定要優先針對它"},{"start":9580.837,"end":9601.222,"text":"第二就是你講的假投資詐騙假投資詐騙它更複雜第一個它必須要利用人的想投資的那個慾望或者是貪念第三它必須營造出就是它的技術會更高營造出這個真的可以讓你賺錢種種"},{"start":9603.723,"end":9616.37,"text":"我先來講一般人民生問題最常碰到的網路詐騙這裡有一個新聞2023年有一個當事人用企業的名義去向電信業者申請了30萬門的電信號碼你知道"},{"start":9625.328,"end":9633.12,"text":"我們的法令的腳步多慢到2023年還可以用企業的名義一次就申請30萬個"},{"start":9636.468,"end":9664.277,"text":"那個電信的門號對根本包括後來就擋掉了後來現在不行了嘛對就打這條例事情前的那後來都把這個洞鎖起來了2023年還可以喔那2024年才不行對不對去年去年就不行了因為我們打炸司法通過以後我們就有一個KYC啦你比較了解到你到底誰來申請門號可是在那之前幾乎啊你用企業的名義啊你可以申請無限量的門號好"},{"start":9667.202,"end":9692.375,"text":"那你知道在網路上你要開一個購物平台你要開一個帳戶你必須要用一個手機號碼通常是這樣那一個手機號碼開一個網路購物平台上的帳號那如果你被發現是詐騙像我給你看了這個新聞有兩個嫌疑犯"},{"start":9693.877,"end":9712.334,"text":"他們四個人 申辦了9萬多筆的大哥大門號你看這個很可怕四個人的清高版規格然後去一個購物平台他創設了好幾萬個賬戶供詐騙集團使用結果被抓到"},{"start":9720.888,"end":9747.345,"text":"被抓到以後呢 那NCC就會處理啦你就會把他申請的這幾個電信門號 你會把它給撤銷NCC有做到啦 有 有 好但是事發部就沒有這個聯繫啦來 我們再來看一下他用大哥大的門號一般 那個購物平台會要求你要有一個電信門號才可以申請一個購物平台的帳號"},{"start":9748.386,"end":9775.327,"text":"好 那現在被抓到了電信門號被NTT撤銷了但是這些詐騙的帳號在購物平台上仍然繼續存在 繼續活躍那你說的網路現在購物平台是誰在管司法部 那司法部在管嘛對 這塊我們都有協作我們是透過高檢署把這個門號這邊涉詐處理掉的我們同步請高檢署轉給來來來 我再給你看"},{"start":9777.569,"end":9796.61,"text":"我們現在並沒有這樣的一個跨部會的聯繫我希望你們要趕快去我們加強其實跟我們報告在今年其實我們就透過高檢署把這個設在門號轉給電商平台把它的一些帳號都1.8萬個帳號都產出了你們行政部門為什麼要推給你們為什麼要這樣推呢"},{"start":9799.193,"end":9818.531,"text":"不是推 那因為我們高點署你不是覺得要打炸國家隊那是個合作的平台你不是叫一個合作平台啊但是只要你NCC把這個帳號給取消掉你應該就要通知另外一個管理網路的部會嘛"},{"start":9820.633,"end":9821.914,"text":"其實我們也有同步給這個檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測"},{"start":9838.686,"end":9850.818,"text":"就是很多被破貨的詐騙他使用的當時在購物平台上在網路平台上他設立的那種詐騙帳號帳戶會繼續存在"},{"start":9855.602,"end":9873.768,"text":"那號碼已經被你這邊撤銷了撤銷只是讓他不能再去別的平台開立帳戶而已或者他不能使用但是他已經之前在網路平台上設立的帳戶他可以繼續騙我現在今天要跟你討論的就是這一點"},{"start":9875.7,"end":9891.585,"text":"有 我會再處理先前台灣使用最多的通訊軟體那時候透過門號的處理也把它4萬多個帳號剷除剛剛跟委員報告我們今年年中透過高點數轉給速發部電商平台處理掉也處理掉1.8萬個帳號"},{"start":9894.009,"end":9914.457,"text":"才1.8萬嗎 不止吧是兩攤 第一攤那個是4萬多我給你看這幾個案件這些詐騙分子之前在電信公司申請的門號你看我今天隨便貼一個9萬多個號碼之前媒體報導的也有一片清三十幾萬盒在2023年以前這就都合法了"},{"start":9918.888,"end":9945.182,"text":"我們的法令是非常落伍的我們一直到去年打詐司法以後才禁止這樣行為所以現在在外面流通的不知道幾百萬個門號他們可以很隨意的去到處開設那種詐騙帳戶難怪台灣之前的那種詐騙那麼猖獗好不好這部分我們會持續努力跨部會的事情你們要趕緊幫我處理好不好這樣才像一個打詐國家隊嘛好那事情你做一步謝謝主委謝謝主席"},{"start":9948.824,"end":9968.602,"text":"好 謝謝再接下來請邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員不在請蔡奇昌委員自選謝謝主席 請陳代理主委陳代理主委請"},{"start":9973.396,"end":9996.611,"text":"委員好 主委在討論今天這個修法的議題之前本席延續著剛剛林俊憲委員所講這個打炸真的要有雷霆萬鈞的手段本席這一屆在這個臺上質詢你 質詢速發部其實重點都在這裡"},{"start":9997.697,"end":10026.653,"text":"那什麼叫雷霆萬鈞很好啊小紅書只要不配合以讀不回不配合打詐我們就公權力就處理啊不只是小紅書我只是舉小紅書當例子本席很站本席站在打詐立場我認為這個是做得非常對不只只有小紅書喔像這些公私行號其他一大堆不落地的以讀不回的"},{"start":10027.847,"end":10052.782,"text":"他明顯影響消費者權益 影響台灣社會秩序的就應該要像內政部這樣的手段嘛主委 我同樣跟你講這個 也會跟速發部長講你們都不夠強硬啦 打詐都不夠強硬啦台灣社會的民眾對於詐騙是深惡痛絕啦這些社群平台他賺他們的錢"},{"start":10054.909,"end":10078.62,"text":"但是政府面這些社群平台成為打詐成為詐騙的溫床政府要打詐請他們提供一些資料推三阻四這小紅書當然更誇張已讀不回在台灣也沒有什麼分公司所以這種要雷霆外民眾才有感說政府打詐是玩真的主委你覺得呢"},{"start":10079.676,"end":10105.423,"text":"支持我們都持續在逃的方向努力所以我要講剛剛林俊賢講這些例子你應該去盤點一下嘛到底是法律問題還是說你行政要一定要修法或者不需要修法你透過行政的力量這些要是這些其他公司行號不配合你管他是哪一國的就應該讓民眾覺得政府在處理打炸就是雷霆萬鈞啊"},{"start":10107.113,"end":10130.801,"text":"就是手段非常的迅猛強硬過去我們都喝 你比較少那抒發部一直在喝咖啡本席對喝咖啡我就很有意見喝咖啡是先禮後兵啦咖啡一直喝沒用就要改喝毒藥不然民眾的權益每天看到這些新聞這些退休的老人家被詐騙"},{"start":10132.551,"end":10152.43,"text":"我們大家情何以堪啊作為民意代表要把人民的心聲講出來啊主委 好不好好 沒問題延續林俊憲委員剛剛所提的這些案例到底是要修法的我們立法院來配合不用修法你行政法案可以處理的就像小紅書這樣就應該要處理啊 好不好好 沒問題"},{"start":10153.837,"end":10179.883,"text":"再來這一次的修法本席其實是很有意見的過去立法院我在立法院也20年了大家在無論朝野各政黨大家都在講委員會中心主義就是希望任何的法案讓在委員會裡面可以得到較為充分的討論再送到院會讓其他不是我們委員會的委員也可以共同參與然後再二讀三讀通過"},{"start":10181.397,"end":10205.025,"text":"那主席啊很熱心排了這個案子但是很可惜這案子交通委員都還沒有討論國民黨就在程序委員會裡面直接把檔板淨附二讀所以本席就覺得那今天交通委員會開這個的意思是國民黨裡面的檔板比較重要國民黨委員提的案子繼續在交通委員會裡面審然後國民黨檔板的這個"},{"start":10207.456,"end":10233.839,"text":"廣電的法案的修法就直接禁覆二讀不需要再經過交通委員們的討論所以本席覺得這個是直接就打臉的主席這個主席真的就按照委員會中心主義來這裡討論不管最後結果是什麼這個就是一個立法品質的程序這也是尊重委員會的一個具體展現所以本席對於這種動不動就禁覆二讀"},{"start":10234.676,"end":10264.279,"text":"你進負二讀如果是說你的案子是因為其他人的已經二讀了所以你跟不上所以併案進負二讀這本席沒意見因為這個就是因為你的案子總不能你就還程序慢人家一點可是明明主席都已經排了這個案子要讓朝野委員好好的在交通委員裡面討論審查但卻人家擋板就直接送了所以本席作為一個立法院的老兵我覺得我應該把這個現象再一次點出來"},{"start":10265.213,"end":10289.261,"text":"不要這樣搞啦這個對立法院這個誰都有可能這個執政嘛誰在立法院都有可能當院長立法院有一些慣例跟傳統是好的那有一些不好當然可以改那有一些是好的讓委員可以充分討論立法品質也會提升讓社會反應對於任何議案在社會的反應都足夠時間而不是直接就進負惡果"},{"start":10290.53,"end":10304.939,"text":"本席不管朝野什麼政黨我對這種沒什麼道理就要敬夫惡毒的如果說你是緊急譬如說我們現在救災法案很緊急你要敬夫惡毒朝野都沒意見那我覺得就敬夫惡毒但是這個有一些就好好的讓大家討論為什麼不這樣做呢"},{"start":10307.581,"end":10334.026,"text":"所以這個是本席第一點要提出來當然這跟你沒關那第二點這個修法裡面其實很多的東西要好好的討論我覺得NCC也應該做準備譬如說有委員提案要鬆綁黨政軍條款那事實上黨政軍介入媒體這個在台灣社會普遍人的想法裡面還是覺得不宜因為大家對黨政軍還是充滿著不確定不信任跟莫名的恐懼"},{"start":10335.166,"end":10353.682,"text":"所以你要讓黨政軍重新掌握媒體這個其實是不宜但是委員提案他是要刪除那個叫間接投資那本席不是主張要刪除不是主張黨政軍要讓黨政軍去介入媒體但本席覺得這一個題目委員提"},{"start":10354.889,"end":10374.539,"text":"刪除間接你們應該好好的接招啦什麼意思呢本期只舉一些小小的案例就好譬如說這個主席啊他合法正常的投資他買了一張啊某一個媒體公司在他直接去黑板買直接就買譬如說買了一張運動頻道愛爾達好了他買了一張"},{"start":10380.37,"end":10399.709,"text":"主委可不可以在現行的法令底下他買了一張中式 買了一張愛爾達可不可以現行的法令那都不行主委你有沒有覺得這個有一點怪怪的就明明他只是一個投資者他的數量也不過一張"},{"start":10401.328,"end":10414.528,"text":"那他被說是黨政軍介入媒體因為他是立法委員所以我的意思是說是可被討論但是本席覺得直接把間接刪掉我也覺得這個太粗暴了"},{"start":10415.29,"end":10443.358,"text":"那間接刪掉的意思說只能直接不能直接可以間接那某政黨自己成立一個投資公司然後投資公司再去持有一個媒體這個叫間接喔那我們把只刪除間接說間接可以那這樣其實大家都知道只是轉個彎就間接投資了這個我覺得不妥這個違背了黨政軍這個介入媒體我們不希望黨政軍介入媒體的這個本質命題"},{"start":10445.635,"end":10458.006,"text":"但是現實的商業操作裡面它卻存在著一些我們現行的法令規定裡面過於嚴苛或不合理的部分所以我認為這個題目應該是被"},{"start":10460.598,"end":10487.478,"text":"已經有委員提了嘛而且是多數黨的委員提的所以它通過的機會很高NCC應該要把道理講清楚如果我們反對間接投資那我們應該要怎麼一定程度讓一些太陽它其實是跟黨政軍介入媒體無關的太陽它應該是可以被合理存在那我覺得這個就進入一個比較理性讓社會大眾也知道說"},{"start":10488.937,"end":10516.712,"text":"我們的想法跟立場是什麼所以我的意思是說他被提出來討論本席是同意的但是直接把間接直接刪除這個我覺得過於粗暴他應該有一些條件的規定譬如說你持股要多少譬如說你買個一張兩張這可能不能算黨政軍但你持股達到多少就有可能會對媒體實質產生的影響或對內容有一定程度的控制那這個就違背了那個精神這不可以"},{"start":10517.916,"end":10544.147,"text":"主委所以回去應該好好的面對這個題目這部分我們幕僚作業其實都有準備好所以今天因為有人送二讀了我就不再因為時間這個太多條了本席就只一個例子那另外社會也擔心譬如說你的評鑑你的換照全是有些國家要換照有些國家不用換照都有他的文化背景跟他的這個歷史發展上找到的意義"},{"start":10545.39,"end":10566.893,"text":"所以他沒有叫做絕對的對或絕對的錯那台灣社會也是一樣我們台灣社會面對譬如說對媒體多數人是負面反正因為台灣高度社會高度對立所以只要講跟我意見不同的我就想要對他就不爽那所以每一台都有很多人不爽而且台灣媒體的環境"},{"start":10567.458,"end":10594.275,"text":"所以台灣的媒體環境是不是要把它全面性的都不用管了政府沒有角色讓市場去決定其實在台灣社會是疑慮是很大的啦就好像說外國的銀行沒有負最終賠付的責任他交給市場決定對不對你可以選性品很差經營條件很差的銀行他可能利率高一點但倒了你要自己負責但台灣不可以"},{"start":10595.031,"end":10609.205,"text":"台灣是一個社會習慣賴政府不是賴清德政府是賴給政府這是台灣社會的特性沒有對錯啦我們就希望政府可以來保護我而不是讓我自己去市場上做決定"},{"start":10610.578,"end":10627.136,"text":"所以在這樣的一個社會氛圍跟架構底下存在著怎麼審那審也有很多審法嘛你也可以把客觀的標準定的明確一點讓模糊的空間減少以避免社會爭議跟立法院的爭議"},{"start":10628.437,"end":10657.1,"text":"這個都是可以被提出來好好的面對跟討論所以本席再次強調主席排這個很好讓大家可以充分討論但本席還是要講可以討論的事情好好的討論不要動不動就直接去敬服惡毒啦好 謝謝謝謝韋好 再一次感謝蔡理商委員代主委請回我想也感謝蔡理商委員承認副院長的蔡理商委員的提點我們立交通委員會"},{"start":10658.061,"end":10683.123,"text":"一定本於專業審查並且我們也希望說能夠早期剛來現在做充分的詢答那未來我們也會再安排做主條的審查這一點是我擔任召委一定都會以捍衛交通委員會或是各委員會的委員會中心主義為最高原則這一點是本期也要特別要說明那"},{"start":10684.584,"end":10698.249,"text":"今天也會讓所有諮詢的委員都能夠這個好好的這個暢所欲言當然就是我們也希望說NCE這邊能夠有一個很良性的一個諮詢跟互動好接下來再請邱若驊委員質詢謝謝主席再有請陳代理主委來陳代理主委請"},{"start":10713.28,"end":10738.522,"text":"委員好主委好 主委今天委員會排審衛星廣播電視法的修正案超越委員共同都提出了多個版本顯示一個共同的焦慮我們的廣電監理制度已經到了不得不修的地步了本席今天也引用學界今年座談會的研討內容以及各政黨團的修法重點就教足為幾個核心的問題首先針對換照制度還有執照的期限"},{"start":10739.262,"end":10756.568,"text":"主委NCC總是宣稱換照是為了把關內容品質但學者林立宇前NCC委員他在論壇上公開承認NCC的審查標準不明確那目前最大的問題是什麼就是好壞都是由NCC說了算"},{"start":10757.888,"end":10773.613,"text":"當評鑑的標準充滿主觀的內控機制還有營運計畫執行情形等字眼的時候換照就變成讓媒體聽話的緊箍咒那NCC想砍向誰就砍向誰那如果前委員都覺得標準像迷霧的話那請主委說明業者要如何適從呢"},{"start":10774.8,"end":10794.168,"text":"看完報告其實我們重大的案件深色評鑑換照其實都前置程序委員會議之前有這個專家學者還有公民團體的組成的諮詢會議來審議其實這意見是多元來呈現來把關的那重大的案件根據我們組織法還可以舉行聽證會那"},{"start":10796.229,"end":10823.361,"text":"大家關心的就是個案上的其實當初也舉行過聽證會其實就是說並不是NCC委員會自己門關起來就來做決定其實都有參採多元的意見來處理所以您說多元意見嗎那許多學者都批評你們的審查不透明然後理由也讓業者困惑的時候你們還是要堅持現行的換照機制嗎那這樣子專業的監理嗎還是為了保有生殺大權呢"},{"start":10824.263,"end":10851.7,"text":"沒有 這個當初其實NCC本身也是這個依法行政那當初的立法的制度賦予NCC在這個框架上來執行那我們就是依法行政來純粹是來處理那當然這個衛廣法18條本身的換照也有規定一些程序那對 這次的修法那許多委員都主張將執照換成永久有效嘛還有自動續照那除非有重大違法才撤照或是審查那您的態度是"},{"start":10852.632,"end":10874.453,"text":"我的看法就是其實委員提案版本有七年的也有九年的也有無窮期的剛剛其他委員有提到其實各國的環境不一樣那台灣有台灣自己的這個當初立法的歷史脈絡那大家的各個國情不一樣那當初既然我們的衛廣法是長成這樣子已經有當初大家"},{"start":10875.033,"end":10899.344,"text":"社會各界的共同共識的一個期待的方式我們一直在討論審查除了這個審查的迷霧之外還缺乏退場機制的問題文化大學的柯智順副教授也指出問題在於進場容易他的進場他進場容易可是他後門緊閉缺乏合理的退場機制讓換照變成唯一的你們的一個武器主委針對這個問題"},{"start":10902.726,"end":10924.105,"text":"剛剛報告我剛剛聽到主委您報告說您有提到平埔是稀有的資源沒錯吧對那是五廣法裡頭會用到無限電比例那是稀有資源所以一般而言是五廣那邊的管制密度會比較高一點所以主委您也提到公益性那您一直拿這個公益性來當擋箭牌如果現行的換照制度真的有效那為什麼行政院多次判決NCC在總天"},{"start":10926.065,"end":10944.21,"text":"跟我們報告26件處分裡頭其實很多目前NCC敗訴是7件 26件只敗訴7件其實這比例並不是這個這個某些媒體這個重複算不同審計的結果的那種結果是不一樣的"},{"start":10944.935,"end":10954.257,"text":"其實本席的問題很簡單就是如果你們沒有辦法提出一套量化然後還有客觀不看顏色的審查標準那立法院為什麼要給你們每六年一次的看守媒體的權利"},{"start":10956.278,"end":10984.958,"text":"各位报告刚刚提到退场机制其实我们NC过往其实这方面愿意申请这微信频道的目前微信频道总共有298家愿意来申请的其实如果市场的力量可以决定他要不要继续在这个场域里头这个赛道里头继续玩下去其实有些过往也有一些新闻台他申请到了可是他没有露出的平台他后来自己他也缴回执照他也不要了所以其实NC是开放的"},{"start":10985.778,"end":10997.072,"text":"那主委您認為今天委員所提出的版本這些版本的內容是完善的嗎我覺得都有可取之處但是都有觀察關注比較沒有關注到的一個面向"},{"start":10997.728,"end":11021.369,"text":"那NCC會不會也提出一個自己的版本然後再送進來委員會我們希望可以但是因為我們目前沒有委員會所以行政院的版本是沒辦法您都會提到委員人數不足的問題難道你們就不用再回去然後也自己提出一個版本嗎什麼都要等到委員數足了之後才來做嗎跟委員報告官方的對案我們是沒有但是我們幕僚座位其實都準備好了"},{"start":11022.216,"end":11044.654,"text":"那主委我們再來討論那針對媒體金流移植的問題我們一直在盯著誰持有媒體股份卻忽略了金流才是真正的控制者那學者有痛批首長的新聞幾乎都是買來的那師大的一名鍾啟輝教授也指出這是尋逐型的正媒關係那現在政府不必違法去投資媒體只要通過龐大的宣傳標案就能讓媒體變乖"},{"start":11045.715,"end":11072.291,"text":"那我們也看到這次黨團還有委員有提出修正案的版本要求強制揭露政府採購補助還有廣告的收入這可能都是切中要害的招壓金那主委剛剛也有委員提到那NCC整天查黨政軍一股都不能持有那對於政府一年砸了十幾億的預算給特定的電視台做廣編還有宣導甚至新聞置入NCC你們自己本身有沒有掌握"},{"start":11073.45,"end":11100.595,"text":"坑委報告分兩個部分政府的標案相關政府他是用採購法他依循採購法那他標案給新聞媒體新聞媒體本身其實就是政府就是預算法62條之一其實已經有規範白話來講簡單來講是說某家電視台他受政府他接到政府標案那某個政府他必須在那個政府的官網揭露說我對誰補助所以NCC都有掌握什麼"},{"start":11103.139,"end":11108.348,"text":"這個我們都有掌握我們都有掌握那請問每年政府編的宣導費有多少流入固定的媒體請主委說明"},{"start":11109.837,"end":11133.253,"text":"這個在那個主體總署的官網有統合整個東西那個別政府採購法或標出去給相關媒體在各個機關都會有官網必須要揭露這些在採購法60條之一都已經規範了另外有黨團黨團跟委員提案來徵定公開發行的義務及揭露政府標案收入NCC你們的態度是什麼"},{"start":11133.513,"end":11157.736,"text":"我們基本看法是這樣的因為該提案的是參考是有限油管法油管法的其實他是大資本然後他當初也是對土稀對一般消費者來收拾費用那跟衛管幾乎是99%是土逼他是對平台的一些處理那太陽不一樣規模不一樣營業模式也不一樣那我們覺得說是否要比照這個"},{"start":11159.178,"end":11166.018,"text":"來達到他對這個新聞品質的把關是不是符合比例原則是不是適當我們覺得這個可以討論"},{"start":11167.793,"end":11194.06,"text":"那主委您剛有提到因為規範有要揭露那是標案的履約管理那這是不是NCC的職權呢預算法裡頭要揭露是預算法的規定預算法主管機關他的規定任何政府機關他有標案給媒體來標他自己的官網要公佈這些我標出去的那些那NCC有沒有另外在做管理"},{"start":11195.502,"end":11211.055,"text":"這邊我們有做一些基本的一些觀察所以說這是不是雙標因為黨政居持股你們就說會影響媒體的獨立性可是政府用上億的標案來餵養媒體也成為媒體的衣食父母你們說你們有一些管理到底是有沒有"},{"start":11211.275,"end":11227.504,"text":"我們意思是說這一塊因為是有採購法跟預算法來把關那政府的行政要講究效能不可能因為其他機關有在做我們又重複在做一樣事情這個對民眾期待政府要有效率這邊應該是相對的必須要符合這個原則的"},{"start":11228.649,"end":11254.764,"text":"OK好謝謝主委說明那今天本席是針對換照的制度希望NCC能夠主動的來做出改革那第二針對媒體的金流那如果不揭露那就是政府的合法政治收買那也請NCC這邊也主動去了解好嗎好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝邱若驊委員來代理主委請回再請魯明哲委員質詢"},{"start":11269.335,"end":11272.956,"text":"好謝謝主席有請我們陳代理主委陳代理主委請"},{"start":11279.253,"end":11301.021,"text":"其實看我們今天很多衛光法相關的一些這個法案的一個修正其實我也是蠻感慨的因為這個第六年在立法院我們發覺事實上很多的法令原本看起來好像是夠用但是關鍵的很多留了蠻多行政材料的空間給政府"},{"start":11301.701,"end":11316.169,"text":"但我們發覺大家期待是一個公平沒有顏色的這樣的去判斷可是在過去過去有四年多的時間都在交通委員會那時候你不是主委了我們是一路炒一路炒過來"},{"start":11317.23,"end":11345.829,"text":"又發覺這中間有非常非常多偏頗之處這是我們的感受到而且有明顯的顏色除了當時的主委自己沒有感受到我們都很清楚所以這修法變成說我們期盼的公正獨立的行政裁量這一群人看不到所以只好把你原本裁量空間越縮越小我覺得這個東西是大家都會覺得我是覺得滿悲哀的"},{"start":11347.23,"end":11355.358,"text":"那你們自己去思考 但是我今天的主題我問問 按一下好不好好不好 我來談一下"},{"start":11357.935,"end":11380.436,"text":"今年開始台灣已經進入高齡化的一個社會 超高齡所以我們在看整個的一個詐欺詐騙受害人數我們65歲以下長者大概佔7.5看起來不是特別的高但是未來隨著超高齡化快速的推進"},{"start":11381.577,"end":11409.18,"text":"對於高齡化的一個詐欺的案件我覺得有必要把它單獨拿出來去看那我們來看從2022年到今年的1到9月很明顯看到在我們警政署的一個統計65歲以上詐騙被害的人數是不斷的攀高我個人認為這個幅度會不斷的去增加因為這些的長輩65歲很多都退休"},{"start":11410.001,"end":11429.555,"text":"那些退休拼了一輩子自己存了一些錢甚至有一些退休金一輩子的夢想就是好好來養老所以這邊報章特別寫這個可能會超過五兆的老人家的養老資金現在非常可能是一個詐團"},{"start":11431.616,"end":11448.122,"text":"基於的對象那這個部分我想請問一下主委你們對於這種高齡化這樣的一個趨勢這樣的一個防詐 堵詐在你們的一個作為上面你有什麼看法好 各位報告我們是在堵詐 懲詐 防詐"},{"start":11451.305,"end":11463.3,"text":"這塊事實上這邊是跨機關合作包括NCC包括內政部其實都有做相關的一些宣導包括簡訊的一些推播發送那剛剛委員提到說這個我們針對的高齡"},{"start":11466.304,"end":11479.217,"text":"族群這一塊的部分那兩年前三年前這個很多國際來化詐騙那一塊我們就用一般民眾最有感覺的方式用語音警訊IVR的方式來處理那這一塊我們施行之後這塊的國際來化來詐騙設在了立刻"},{"start":11483.243,"end":11503.801,"text":"斷言就掉下去了這邊我們都持續處理那另外我們電信業者這邊我們知道一般高齡化的人即便是他用的是功能手機那如果說他用的一些網路上的東西他其實目前普遍限制性不高但是我們有要求電信業者在他的門市裡頭在售理辦相關業務的時候"},{"start":11506.703,"end":11527.204,"text":"要如果是年輕大的就請他順便做這個市詐房詐賭詐的一些宣導也讓他們有所安心因為一般民眾我只要到了電信的門市那邊通常會有一個信任感那不管是他對櫃檯人員的相關的一些宣導還有他當地這些一些標語小冊子這些我們都來持續處理"},{"start":11529.166,"end":11548.827,"text":"主委你剛剛講了包括了你們所謂的這幾年推動的很多包括次數 件數正好你有看到我們這個審計部的一個報告一三年度預算的一個審計報告裡面特別提到就是NCC的一個部分高齡防詐的政策"},{"start":11549.668,"end":11566.347,"text":"我們審計部的報告特別講說你們還主要停留在宣導活動你們主要在我們的報告甚至過去的每一次的專案的一個部分大部分都說我有多少場次 人次教材提供哪些比較新穎的教材"},{"start":11567.128,"end":11591.056,"text":"可是我覺得審計部報告講得很有道理那對於這種投入性的指標但是真正反映這個阻攔的一個電話的次數跟阻詐的一個金額剛剛看到人數不斷的一個增加他是希望希望你們對於這些老人家可能認知能力的衰退跟他的資產過度集中能不能提供具體科技化"},{"start":11591.716,"end":11610.257,"text":"可操作的保護機制這是審計部我也覺得他說的蠻有道理那對於審計部這樣的一個問題提出來這樣一個問題你有沒有什麼解方各位報告其實審計部這塊我們的想法就是說除了宣導之外另外是減少這個高齡人口"},{"start":11611.678,"end":11636.314,"text":"炸的風險的露出的一些部位那很簡單來講那以往很多是透過簡訊那在簡訊有分成兩個部分一個是商業簡訊我們所謂的A to P那一塊我們已經在差不多一年半以前都已經開始在上路怎麼處理只要簡訊商業簡訊裡頭有網址連結的有電話號碼的一律砍一把砍掉除非說他有經過特殊認證過他是開白名單方式處理"},{"start":11636.914,"end":11652.149,"text":"那一般如果是個人詐團他打算透過一般的電話一般的電話的警訊來傳的我們也有行為模式的管制一天超過幾折了我們會把他停掉叫他回來KYC那他不敢回來通常有些東西那他就是涉詐這一塊都有來處理"},{"start":11654.171,"end":11680.681,"text":"那另外高齡的部分社債很多都也是投資剛剛陳主委員所講這一塊那我們也有跟這個跨機關來合作那透過這個社債電話部分連結到相關速發部他所小管的一些電商平臺把那些透過這些電話號碼社債電話號碼所申請到的帳號都砍掉這些我們目前都持續在做的事情好 主委好"},{"start":11681.861,"end":11709.96,"text":"我覺得現在因為蠻多的長輩還是靠電話這個工具不管是有時候家用電話雖然越來越少但是還是蠻多長者在用家用電話的第二個當然是手機所以電話的詐騙還是高齡者主要受害的媒介那我們在想能不能加諸我們現在的業者剛剛有一些方面你們已經在做了嘛國際電話來會提醒嘛有一些部分已經在做了那我們看各國這也是我們審計部"},{"start":11711.061,"end":11723.293,"text":"他列出來的主要的一個部分他就日本的部分他能夠裝防騷擾的一個設備就簡單來講事實上我們也可以打給電信公司叫他設定什麼可是對於長輩來說如果設定非常非常複雜你要撥什麼呢他們不見得會所以他特別來有這種安裝防騷擾的一個設備針對於你要"},{"start":11734.342,"end":11760.895,"text":"國際電話不明電話你要拒接或者直接設定你的電話成為語音信箱我覺得怎麼把它簡化現在看起來現在電話都有這些設備但是長輩不見得會用那當然我們看到這個澳洲的一個部分是針對一樣就剛剛講說打詐一個團隊任何人發現要及時那及時通報給友軍如果沒有及時的話會有罰則但因為我們覺得在台灣大部分是"},{"start":11761.835,"end":11784.885,"text":"主張業者自律勸導輔導這個部分那新加坡的這個部分也是有很多包括英國甚至有想說如果透過你已經認證的機制造成的詐騙業者都要去損失賠償那我想最後一個問題請教我們對於現在的一個電線業者因為他畢竟在第一線有一些作為但是在責任的部分能不能賦予他們多一點"},{"start":11785.706,"end":11800.847,"text":"有的其實這個當初國際的做法我們在當初討論當初討論的時候其實是在打造條例還沒制定前制定之後其實業者有相對的義務那打造條例17 18特定18那這一塊那如果他沒有做的話業者是會被重罰的那一樣的"},{"start":11801.368,"end":11817.263,"text":"如果一次設炸打炸條例17條跟打炸條例14條部分我們都會通知他某種程度電信業者也是我們打炸的友軍我們通知他說這個你該處理了我們以後透過這個類似的軟法透過這個修正這個定型化契約來"},{"start":11818.624,"end":11837.075,"text":"只要他針對異常的化物的部分他得停止或斷化目前都有一些在處理那另外剛剛委員提到說對高齡人要有有感的部分我們針對前一陣子很多未選好來化 試化也好我們已經要求業值明年五月以前都要做語音警示"},{"start":11838.393,"end":11865.526,"text":"好啦 我想今天最主要是我們希望能夠業者的一個責任也能夠比較國際下強化他不是順便在旁邊幫忙我們有幫忙算加分沒幫忙不扣分我覺得要加出他責任畢竟他們在第一線很多人騙東騙西騙了這麼多他也沒有被刪掉然後後面接電話沒被提醒我都覺得這是業者可以加強的請你們待會去研究會 我們會持續努力謝謝委員"},{"start":11869.568,"end":11897.827,"text":"好 謝謝盧明哲委員接下來再請翁小玲委員質詢好 謝謝主席首先我想要請這個陳代理主委主委請還有金管會今天的代表是陳湘瑩副組長嗎"},{"start":11899.981,"end":11918.55,"text":"副組長請首先要請教主委是因為本席這次提的衛廣法的修法大概涉及三個部分一個是有關於簡化 憑鑒換照的程序第二個部分就是對於違反黨政軍退出媒體的規定"},{"start":11921.372,"end":11938.83,"text":"這個修正和相關的罰則處罰對象那第三個呢就是針對於公開NCC諮詢委員會議的名單這主要是三大重點那當然就是說首先想請教就是這個違反黨政軍退出媒體的處罰規定"},{"start":11940.832,"end":11969.829,"text":"其实被诟病已久大家都知道现在的违反党政军退出媒体的处罚规定是不合理的本席要强调就是我支持党政军退出媒体可是我对于现在的规定它不是处罚那个行为人去投资的行为人而是处罚被投资很无辜的很无奈根本不知道谁投资我持有我这个媒体股份的"},{"start":11970.93,"end":11992.97,"text":"這個媒體業者所以這樣子的規定其實它就是一個錯法錯殺的規定而這個規定其實從它公佈我記得應該是2006年公佈之後開始實施之後就產生了這樣的一個問題可是我沒有看到NCC有任何作為NCC近年來有提修法嗎"},{"start":11993.877,"end":12002.066,"text":"其實我們內部都有持續在滾動檢討其實那個法案其實很早就準備好所以你們準備的方向是什麼呢你們認為是要處罰嗎還是持續的維持處罰媒體業者的規定嗎"},{"start":12010.283,"end":12024.353,"text":"一言以蔽之可休不可廢直接投資絕對禁止間接投資要有配套配套基本上就是說它不能達到實質控制沒有 主委不好意思 這個陳副主委您沒有聽懂我的意思我的意思還是說處罰要處罰誰嘛你到底是要處罰那個投資行為還是處罰"},{"start":12031.104,"end":12056.229,"text":"被投資的就是莫名其妙我也不知道到底現在誰間接直接持有我的股份結果呢你現在的規定就是處罰被投資被投資者媒體業者所以你們的修法方向是什麼呢我們修法方向剛剛跟委員報告的要配套裡頭如果業者他沒有做到假設說他間接投資的他還是有擔任董監事擔任經理人這一部分業者一樣去做那他就違反違反他就有罰則那就罰到業者了"},{"start":12057.369,"end":12078.414,"text":"就跟現行的說罰到規則對象不合理的部分就可以處理掉所以只有說是當直接投資的時候直接投資的時候然後這個業者他是擔任媒體業者的董監事這時候你們處罰不是直接投資一律不准但是直接投資是一律不准嗎先是講董監事的問題"},{"start":12080.374,"end":12098.367,"text":"今天投資如果他還是讓他去做總監事當經理人這一部分那葉子如果我們是不准的不准他今天投資的部分他代表的股權那些人不可以去控制這些公司當他的總監事當他的經理人如果他讓他去當那就違反這條對應的規定"},{"start":12099.568,"end":12122.947,"text":"我坦白說因為我們先前也講過這個間接投資你到底是要算幾成是算兩成三成還是無限成這其實都有很多的問題那麼本席擔任過NCC委員我不是不知道說這個問題的嚴重性而且最重要是說你們每一次的裁罰處分都被行政法院撤銷所以連行政法院都認為這個條文是有問題的"},{"start":12124.668,"end":12140.342,"text":"可是呢NCC已經這個這麼多年來然後你們說有修法修法我看也沒有提到這個立法院來好幾年前在交友會有討論後來也就不了了之所以本席這次提我最重要的目的就是不要錯法"},{"start":12142.321,"end":12161.406,"text":"不要挫伐媒體業者那至於就是說那你們說投資行為人誰來處罰誰來處罰請問一下NCC願意處罰嗎你們認為你們有這個權限嗎我們也認為說這邊是需要修正所以這邊的立場我們是跟委員是一致的所以我們的看法好我先要講你認為說誰是有權機關還是金管會金管會你們願不願意未來擔任"},{"start":12167.709,"end":12186.73,"text":"違反黨政軍退出媒體然後直接投資或間接投資的行為人然後你們作為他的主管機關你們對於這個違反者予以處罰這個部分金管會可能沒有辦法做這樣的一個主管機關那所以NCC你有辦法嗎"},{"start":12188.323,"end":12213.038,"text":"你們有辦法這樣去追溯他的股份然後予以處罰嗎你們願意承擔起這個責任嗎我們是認為是我們是賦予業者這個要有這個義務業者沒有做到的話是要處罰業者你要處罰你你賦予哪個業者業務嗎你現在根本就不是一般的公司行號企業的這個不是股份證券股份公司的這個主管機關嗎你要賦予他什麼義務"},{"start":12214.88,"end":12239.181,"text":"簡單來講就是這樣子假設某一家衛工業者他有間接的他有股權上有間接的黨政軍但是他還是讓他間接持有黨政軍股權的那些法輪代表也好或者各個也好去做董監事是 陳副主委我想這個問題還蠻大的但我想這個部分就請你要去再去了解不好意思可以麻煩召委再多給我一個問題的時間那麼有關於就是公開NCC"},{"start":12241.003,"end":12258.084,"text":"諮詢會議委員的名單你們認為說這樣的公開可能會影響到未來委員擔任的意願我想要問的是擔任NCC的諮詢委員平靜聲色煥躁的諮詢委員是怎麼樣是件很丟人很見不得人的事嗎"},{"start":12259.445,"end":12287.457,"text":"為什麼不能公開跟委員報告因為是過往因為兩點 第一點諮詢委員會的意見是中間過程是我們委員會做成最後最終決定前的參考意見所以它不是最終的我想要問的是說現在NCC的深色評鑑換照諮詢委員會是不是已經是明定在法條裡面它是個法定組織它是不是跟訴願委員會一樣所以訴願委員會的委員有沒有公開"},{"start":12288.888,"end":12315.709,"text":"委員會的名單有沒有公開有吧 溯源委員會的名單當然要公開啊所有的溯源委員會的名單都有公開那你為什麼明明是明訂在這個衛廣法第20條裡面就要設置這個深色評鑑換照諮詢委員會議我今天沒有說要公開你們的中間的討論過程會議記錄當然要公開中間討論過程是屬於準備程序這不需要公開"},{"start":12316.75,"end":12336.812,"text":"但是名單要公開我覺得這是一個也是負責的很重要的一個議題資訊越透明大家越對於就是諮詢委員然後認為他們具有公信力所以所做出來討論大家會尊重可是你們現在如果都不公開都是黑箱作業也難怪大家會對於NCC所做的"},{"start":12337.272,"end":12353.144,"text":"也更為補充報告其實這個案子在過往的行政訴訟裡頭其實北高行或法院也有做出一些認為說他們的名單其實不宜公開公開會讓這些委員在平時在那是因為現在法條沒有明文規定嘛我們未來法條通過的話讓他公開他當然就公開啊"},{"start":12355.505,"end":12379.499,"text":"對 所以本席是認為說你們的說法你們的論述要一致為什麼書院委員會的名單有公開然後但是你們現在的這個深色換照評鑒諮詢會議這麼重要的會議竟然委員可以不公開好 那我想這個部分的話就請主委回去再多思考好 謝謝好 謝謝翁小玲委員來 主委請回接下來再請廖先祥委員諮詢"},{"start":12391.382,"end":12394.153,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩陳代理主委代理主委請"},{"start":12399.093,"end":12424.359,"text":"文豪這個跟主委請教這個在大概兩三年前這個電信業有整合嘛有整併嘛那現在就是電信三雄那當初在整併的時候NCC有提供一些附帶條件嘛對不對那我看一下附帶條件大概有兩項是我比較關注的第一個是4G跟5G的一個涵蓋率另外一個是超標頻譜的一個繳回這兩項"},{"start":12426.92,"end":12453.626,"text":"那這個涵蓋率這個問題應該比較簡單啦大概是他們有附帶條約2027 4G要98%嘛4G要99% 5G要98%那這部分應該時間也差不多快到了 剩一年的時間這部分我們有在掌握他們目前的一個涵蓋率的嗎我們都有持續在追蹤包括當初任何這個和平案的我們要求他的相關的一些要求付款行政指導也好我們都有在追蹤"},{"start":12454.537,"end":12479.546,"text":"那就涵蓋率這部分他們有這兩家有都達標了嗎還是在努力中基本上人口涵蓋率應該都沒問題所以人口涵蓋率這兩點98%跟99%這兩點他們大概都已經達標了對好那另外一個請教就是這個另外一個比較麻煩的就是超標的一個評普那臺灣當然有大概有大概回顧一些相關的新聞有一家已經繳回了對不對"},{"start":12482.167,"end":12508.985,"text":"遠傳矯匯 另外一家台灣大哥大還在訴訟當中目前我們針對他們沒有依照附帶決議的部分我們有哪些行政處置的作為跟後續的情況 細一點我們當初應該是罰了三次待機然後他也間接就違反了網路事務計畫也罰了三次總共應該是將近好幾百萬有沒有明確一點的數字"},{"start":12509.687,"end":12522.432,"text":"好像是300萬發一次250萬發一次加起來應該是我印象中應該是有三次加起來應該是將近800萬850萬總共就是3加3總共850萬加上代金的話代金是每次30萬3次90萬加起來就900多萬"},{"start":12531.975,"end":12554.279,"text":"900多萬好那這部分因為他們有提行政訴訟對不對那行政訴訟當然這個就是訴訟之後的一個事情那這在行政訴訟的這過程當中我們還是一樣在執法當中嗎還是說你們就是等訴訟結束之後再決定怎麼做因為目前他已經繳回了他已經繳回了對OK所以就是針對過去還沒有繳回的一個部分對他當時還沒繳回錢的處罰"},{"start":12557.771,"end":12574.745,"text":"是好那這部分就是後續就是一個輸送的一個過程了那這個可能他們當初有講可能會影響一些原用戶的使用的權利的部分那不曉得他們有沒有造成一些跟原用戶的一些客戶的一些投訴或糾紛等等的"},{"start":12575.782,"end":12592.392,"text":"一開始的時候確實那個台哥大跟跟台灣之星這一塊確實一開始客訴比較多後來大概都處理好了目前大概這一部分的問題都應該算是都已經翻頁了好那接下來我在這部分好那這部分已經繳回那後續都等輸送了"},{"start":12592.932,"end":12606.957,"text":"那後續再請問一下這個今天的主題就是大家都知道這個修法的一個內容那就是我們這邊這個有一些委員的提案是主張這個修法在法院判決"},{"start":12608.958,"end":12624.748,"text":"這個確定之前他們是有這個權利的嘛對不對那這部分假設啦就是一個假設性的問題看您願不願意回答那假設法定通過了雖然說你們可能不太認同這樣子的一個論述那假設法定通過了之後那針對中天案你們會有怎樣的一個作為"},{"start":12625.819,"end":12639.269,"text":"那如果最終一切的救濟手段都確定還是通過的話那行政機關本身就是依法行政會來依法處理但是現在目前是沒辦法處理就大案子在根據我們組織法9條2項6款是"},{"start":12643.026,"end":12663.678,"text":"經營業者的經營權的得上變更需要委員會來處理那必須要搭配由委員會來處理所以主委的意思是說就是只要立法院修法通過之後那總統府也公告實施了那你們就是依照法條去做而不是而不會等到法院最後的一個判決再決定要不要附照對不對"},{"start":12665.584,"end":12678.932,"text":"也跟委員報告其實這個法律保留例外的情況其實剛剛司法院先進以後講其實一般的情況是比較很少看到的那其實目前我們國內這個例外的東西"},{"start":12679.913,"end":12704.171,"text":"我禮拜天禮拜六大概很努力的去找一下大概只有稅捐寄生法39條有的排除利用但是稅捐寄生法的排除利用其實它還是有前提的它還是要繳一部分稅款提供擔保才可以是免除被強制執行所以基本上而言這個行政訴訟法116條第一項的例外適用其實是很少很少很少的"},{"start":12704.491,"end":12714.059,"text":"沒關係 我就要確認一下我們的機關的作為而已機關的作為你們會等還是就是依照法條來做後續的作為"},{"start":12715.616,"end":12741.409,"text":"現況因為還在討論當中不是修過我們但是依法行政現在的法律長什麼樣子我們就找現在現在還是要116條現在還沒修過對不對那修過之後假設修過之後那你們會就是法律公佈之後就開始實施了那你們會一樣等法院訴訟結束之後還是說適用這個新的法就是法院還沒訴訟終結前那他還是有這個權利"},{"start":12744.437,"end":12762.053,"text":"基本上我們就是依法行政 如果會議管法修成這樣子那如果這個會議管法的法律的一些最終的它的定性是已經確定窮盡的一些救濟手段 救濟可能的想法之後就是要依法行政 依法行政怎麼處理在NC的部分必須要經過委員會議來處理"},{"start":12765.256,"end":12792.007,"text":"另外就是說請教一下那他可能有一些台的一些問題對不對假設他要復台那有一些台他目前已經是其他業者在使用了對不對我跟你講重點他目前的原來的品位現在已經有其他頻道業者在那邊所以這一塊提示涉及到第三方就是有限電視的平台那這個目前是第三方人的利益而且是商業機制的那這一塊法律上執行確實是有他的挑戰難度"},{"start":12793.027,"end":12816.208,"text":"所以這個後面就是可能是需要到協調嘛對不對原坪 原坪位 原坪到復原有些台看起來它是可能有一些挑戰的對 白話來講就是說那個房子現在已經有新的租客了那你要把新的租客請他離開這個現在保護等等這些都是一個問題而且目前它是個商業機制"},{"start":12816.929,"end":12840.435,"text":"好不好那既然我覺得就是主委我其實我還蠻尊重您在立法院的一些回覆啦那但是既然現在這個法現在已經在立法院討論當中了那討論當中有委員提的討論中就代表他可能會過他有可能過過不過這我還不知道那假設過的情況下我也希望說NCC針對假設過了之後那我們NCC可能必須要有哪一些問題需要去"},{"start":12841.215,"end":12866.207,"text":"克服或是討論或後續衍生的一些問題我也希望NCC針對後續可能的修法通過來做一些及早的一些因應會的 我們會就個人可能都會來準備好 那謝謝諸位 謝謝主席謝謝委員好 謝謝廖先生委員來 待諸位辛苦喝口水好 接下來再請張祺凱委員之選"},{"start":12884.621,"end":12905.758,"text":"來 請陳主委來 陳代主委請文豪主委 那是法治社會啦是我剛剛聽你的答詢我要給你高度的肯定你至少沒有像那個違法亂紀的那個周榮泰行政院長說立法院通過了三讀的條文不執行"},{"start":12907.281,"end":12935.256,"text":"像中天可能赴台這個題目他等於要過三個老實講他還有三關要過他有三關要過第一個當然就是今天這個修法對不對如果修法過了這是一個第二個過了以後還要行政院議員不願意做總統要不要公告第三個真的要做就是回到你剛剛講的要委員會開會對不對NCJ委員會開會要過這三關對不對不過實際上我們是一個法治社會就是叫不來就好了"},{"start":12936.584,"end":12964.797,"text":"法治社會就照法來做因為老實講這本來就是個行政救濟的一個管道對不對法院後來怎麼判過了以後立法院就修法就完全照法裡面來做好不好好OK不要又搞出一個到時候那個什麼行政院長又不依法執行這個事情好 今天談衛星廣播電視法修正這個是台灣民眾黨重中之重我早在去年的3月份就代表台灣民眾黨"},{"start":12966.328,"end":12992.628,"text":"八位委員我們就提出了修正案我們有所謂的改革三件最重要就是要公開透明整個資訊的這個揭露它所謂三支箭有就是包括衛星的電視跟廣播它都是要公開發行的要公開發行公開發行以後就會出現第二支箭了所以它的股權資訊還有它的財務的資訊對外就會揭露為什麼要有這兩個非常重要的因為老實講現在很難過的是"},{"start":12994.659,"end":13009.086,"text":"地視權 衛星電視跟廣播對國家發展影響是很大的可是現在某些電視台現在都變副業了變副業了他們肯定做了其他很多非常多的這個行業土地開發 還有去買遊樂園的"},{"start":13013.306,"end":13040.847,"text":"這是非常嚴重的這很畸形的發展在全世界的全世界民主國家很少這樣子所以我們會明確要求他必須要公開發行接受全民的監督讓他們不要再走後門讓他們善盡第四權的權利不要把第四權幫成復原去謀自己的福利這是前面兩支箭第三個也很重要就是這段時間引起非常多人過病了正媒變成一體了甚至是黨檢媒師變成一體了"},{"start":13043.035,"end":13065.854,"text":"很多的這個電視台你在看什麼他就是完全依靠政府的採購案政府的補助而且是集中在某些在某幾家說明要明定只要是對政府這個採購還有補助跟廣告這個他收入這個來源要整個全部要揭露讓全民共同來監督提這三個那我現在很具體的來問這個內容這次裡面我們先針對一個房幣的問題"},{"start":13072.114,"end":13080.125,"text":"這個新聞報導之前有報導過三立入主去經營了中佳集團"},{"start":13082.438,"end":13106.529,"text":"結果以前的NCC的主委在這邊打他說依照現行法律沒辦法沒辦法管因為他監過好幾層從母公司到子公司到孫公司弄到後來你根本就法律上沒辦法管所以這次我們在明文裡面再增加了第12條之一要求經營新聞跟財經頻道或者是自播新聞節目的"},{"start":13108.07,"end":13134.053,"text":"衛星廣播電視事業你必須依照主管機關的NCCNCC你指定的方式在每年的6月30號之前將前一年度的相關的這個資訊要放到主管機關指定的網站跟該事業的網站上面特別是要防避我剛提的那個事情三立層層投資去躲避這個監督我們要求"},{"start":13135.214,"end":13161.242,"text":"要求申列裡面的第七款只要是主要廣告收入來源負責人 董事跟監察人 經理人跟直接或者間接他持有已經發行有表決權股份的總數只要超過十分之一以上股東的這個投資事業的他全部就要公開披露這是一個黃幣喔 解決問題啊這位有贊成申列這個條文嗎"},{"start":13164.247,"end":13180.552,"text":"這個基本原則我們是理解委員的立場跟委員補充報告委員所舉的那個例子那個個案其實我們已經處理了也罰這個MSO1440萬那剛剛委員提到的公開發行這一部分我們是不要持保留的態度為什麼"},{"start":13181.132,"end":13210.202,"text":"因為公開發錢這個你們提案是說是參照郵廣法可是郵廣法的資本規模跟它商業模式它是土C跟未廣頻道是土B這個相對是比較不同的我們會覺得說這個公開發錢這邊那現在所有的電視台都學三立然後都去宗家或者是第四台第四台做這個投資這是明文規定的可是你開了一個後門你有沒有辦法把它讀起來當然就是用這種法令用這種法令直接修法把它明定"},{"start":13211.576,"end":13231.314,"text":"你要允許繼續再發生這個事嗎再鼓勵嗎你目前只有小法對不對沒有沒有都一千多萬一千多萬一千多萬都那個電視台賺的人家要訂五天這是一個好那另外我看到你的這個書面資料裡面你特別有一直在強調說如果是採購案"},{"start":13233.426,"end":13255.462,"text":"採購案預算法上面有規定你要清楚看一下我們的條文好不好我們的條文是你要制定一個你指定的一個方式在每年的6月30號之前將前一年度的資訊第一個是要公開揭露在你NCC指定的一個網站另外他們該事業例如說如果是三立或者民視或TBS他自己也要公布好不好"},{"start":13256.362,"end":13275.551,"text":"好 這個也跟委員補充報告 採購這個預算法60條之一他是要求做兩件主要資訊公開的事情 第一個假設A機關開一個採購案給某家電視台去得標了 那A機關必須在他的官網裡頭去揭露說我這一塊的資訊揭露 另外"},{"start":13276.751,"end":13300.307,"text":"這個一樣是預算法60條之一也要求這個主地總署那邊的官網也要同步揭露就是兩個地方的資訊已經在揭露了我們這個修法裡面明定的是三個一塊是採購 一個是補助 一個是廣告這三個都是要揭露的 好不好那更重要的是你剛剛提的預算法裡面某部分做的這個做的公佈之後還不夠完整所以我們才訂了這個條文 好不好"},{"start":13301.147,"end":13328.317,"text":"那我今天非常鄭重的要求 主委今天有好幾個立法委員跟我們台灣民眾黨的黨團都已經提出了修正案了你剛剛有提說你們有在討論對不對我們黨政軍部分有什麼時候可以提出行政院院版跟委員報告 很抱歉因為這個重大政策是需要委員會通過那目前NCC沒有委員會所以院版 官方的版本對案是比較沒有辦法提出來的"},{"start":13329.147,"end":13344.802,"text":"所以你剛剛就講說你沒有在研究嘛那要過的就是委員對啊 那NCC委員就叫這行政院長總裁趕快提啊趕快提啊他不是只有財務法不依法行政該提的人士他不提啊前委會也不提 NCC也不提"},{"start":13346.141,"end":13368.333,"text":"阿賴總統大跑關也不提他貪玩整個國家是不是你們如果是真的需要NCC委員要通過的話請盡快趕快去跟那個賴清德講跟那個卓中泰講趕快把NCC的人事提不只要趕快提跟時間賽跑要趕快提影響太大了第二個提出全民可以接受的專業性過的獨立性過的要不然 諸位"},{"start":13369.193,"end":13383.664,"text":"NCC以前本來形象不錯所以這幾年搞到變成政治打手了趕快提出大家全民可以接受的人選趕快讓NCC的形象可以更好加油啦我們適當實際反應 謝謝委員好 謝謝張啟凱委員謝謝 待會主委請回再請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":13399.333,"end":13424.646,"text":"是主席 有請代理主委陳代理主委請文豪代理主委好台灣民眾黨黨團所提出來的衛廣法修正其實主要的目的就是要促進特別是在掌握新聞台的媒體他們股權 經營資訊跟接受政府補助的公開化"},{"start":13427.068,"end":13451.377,"text":"剛剛執行的張慶愷委員也跟你提過非常具體明確的例子十幾年前我們早就設下了一個反媒體壟斷的紅線新聞台不可以牽引系統台這件事情是非常清楚的前面的潛力很多幾年以前我公開檢舉過就是三立入股重價"},{"start":13453.625,"end":13480.005,"text":"剛剛你在上面大言不慚的說你們已經處理了怎麼處理的當初如果不是有吹哨者把裡面最核心的契約交出來你們有辦法處理嗎你們根本沒有辦法處理啊我有說錯嗎沒有錯對啊當初花了多少力氣啊去說服那個吹哨者啊"},{"start":13482.625,"end":13502.751,"text":"把他們建民的契約交出來這件事情才有辦法處理如果不是這個樣子的話你怎麼知道我們當初在反媒體壟斷的時候強調一件事情你要掌控一個媒體就先掌控他的所有權所以才會有各式各樣的紅線以現在的狀況來講有線電視系統"},{"start":13511.769,"end":13537.219,"text":"民意上面背後真正的是哪一個有限系統大亨我老實說啦NCC如果沒有掌握狀況那是NCC的失職但這件事情我另外再找時間來請教你們為什麼要股權公開透明道理就在這裡嗎剛剛你還大言不慚的說說後來有處理要處理中加有處理三立嗎"},{"start":13539.589,"end":13554.723,"text":"有一併處理那有請他就是相應配合勸告他以後不要這樣幹了還是勸告他以後技術好一點你有處理三立嗎有嗎相對於宗家是比較沒有在處理"},{"start":13555.706,"end":13574.178,"text":"相對於仲家比較 沒有就沒有嘛沒有處理就大聲說沒有嘛畏畏縮縮的接下來再看繼續往下看這是我問過的題目2024年檢調偵辦炸雞集團發現有一個王牌交易所"},{"start":13575.435,"end":13601.032,"text":"大的詐欺犯罪組織哇 厲害三立旗下的公司入股裡面其中的一個宣傳公司而這個宣傳公司設置的地點就在三立集團大樓這是一個幫詐欺集團在三立大樓裡面成立的洗錢公司三立還不是只有把辦公室租給他們三立還直接入股"},{"start":13602.691,"end":13625.462,"text":"他出40%啊這王牌交易所下面的詐欺犯罪組織出60%啊合資在三立大樓裡面設一個洗錢公司啊上一次2024年的時候夏天我問了陳耀祥說會去了解要去調查然後呢"},{"start":13626.892,"end":13649.19,"text":"跟我們報告現在那家公司已經解散了是然後呢解散就算了然後他跟那些相關的合作案其實也終止了節目也沒有再播出了所以從NCC的角度上面來講就沒有需要處理了嗎那我們會持續檢視他有沒有其他違法的事實有的話我們一樣會依法你還要去檢視其他違法的事實喔"},{"start":13650.083,"end":13679.138,"text":"我們當初在強調新聞媒體的時候新聞媒體的負責人媒體負責人的資格性是不是NCC要審查的對象是嗎是是啊而且那不是一開始的時候才要檢視那是持續性的義務耶那我現在來啦我現在問題來啦投資設立洗錢公司的有媒體經營者的資格性嗎"},{"start":13680.619,"end":13697.559,"text":"跟委員報告那個是在我們的法律規定是說他的效率資格如果他有涉及相關形式或有什麼相關的被判刑的話我跟代理主委報告啦你回去複習一下當初在推動媒體改革的時候不要說以今天2025年的標準啦"},{"start":13699.963,"end":13704.169,"text":"以2012年的標準現在講這種話都很丟臉啦2012年的時候那麼多傳播學者出來倡議媒體改革反媒體壟斷我們在討論媒體經營者的資格性"},{"start":13715.889,"end":13739.857,"text":"是用你今天在那邊講的消極資格的標準喔那是最起碼的對啊 那我現在問題就來了嘛按照你剛剛的說法解散了啊接下來就看他有沒有在做其他的詐騙洗錢行為就好啦那另外跟委員補充報告這麼消極的態度喔他當初合作部分有沒有涉及接廣部分我們其實已經在處理到到相關這個節目廣告諮詢會已經處理完畢"},{"start":13743.137,"end":13768.778,"text":"那處理完畢的結論是什麼因為後續還要提委員會議處理現在沒有委員會議所以現在你們的諮詢會議結論是要怎麼處理不能講因為就是程序中的那而且是個案沒關係啦這件事情我會持續追啊就看你們接下來要怎麼處理嘛更離譜的事情是什麼去年我們在審預算的時候做假新聞啊"},{"start":13770.563,"end":13797.998,"text":"說藍白立委刪除體育署11億的預算事實上僅3減10萬6200元這一部分我們也進行到節目廣告諮詢會議然後呢聽清楚啊然後呢三立後來發聲明說這個是依據事實呈現我的老天啊徹頭徹尾的假訊息說是依據事實呈現"},{"start":13799.793,"end":13818.182,"text":"然後說這是時間差不是假新聞我只有個最簡單的問題啦你講的時間差是哪一個時間差在哪一個時間點曾經存在31億的預算你告訴我從來沒有然後推說時間差"},{"start":13820.556,"end":13844.126,"text":"1月17號禮拜五我們就處理通案提案了他的新聞什麼時候出來的他的新聞是1月19號出來的1月15號已經處理完了處理完了以後鋪天蓋地的假新聞假訊息告訴全台灣人民說我們塞了體育署11億的預算這是嗜讀能力有問題嗎還是數學有問題"},{"start":13851.431,"end":13874.998,"text":"徹頭徹尾的假訊息我公開質問三立新聞講清楚什麼時候要道歉推說時間差來來來 我給你看更離譜的三立開了新聞自律委員會結果說失誤在所難免這種自律標準 主委你滿意嗎他說失誤在所難免"},{"start":13877.475,"end":13886.92,"text":"這是假訊息 這不是失誤所有時間差我再問一次在哪一個時間點曾經存在我們刪了體育署11億"},{"start":13889.485,"end":13913.7,"text":"在哪一個時間點有出現過這個狀況沒有啊省預算是動態進行這個我了解動態進行如果有不同的提案在那個動態當中我都可以接受那問題是什麼第一個從來沒有任何一個時間點出現31億第二個新聞報導出來的時候通案提案早就解決完了只塞了10萬塊結果變成31億第三個綠媒"},{"start":13919.269,"end":13936.784,"text":"集團性的操作鋪天蓋地污蔑在野黨的立委然後呢要求三立給個交代還發聲明罵我們說這是時間差然後他們自己的新聞自立委員會說失誤在所難免"},{"start":13938.001,"end":13961.509,"text":"主委你認同嗎這部分我們都已經在程序上已經進入節目廣告諮詢委員會那後續委員會成立之後我們會做最終的一些決定很好 委員會成立以後那就拜託代理主委啊回去跟卓榮泰講缺額的趕快提來回去跟卓榮泰講啊缺額的趕快提來啊"},{"start":13963.442,"end":13988.229,"text":"我們是44G來跟行政院這方面來反映所以現在卓榮泰的態度是什麼反正我先癱瘓委員會行政院院長帶頭癱瘓NCC所以這些案子就通通不用處理沒有辦法處理卓榮泰在下好大的一盤棋看為觀止謝謝韋好 謝謝黃國昌委員 代理主委請回"},{"start":13995.418,"end":14022.655,"text":"好 接下來再請鄭天才委員質詢好 主席 各位委員有請主委來 陳代理主委請 謝謝委員好"},{"start":14023.294,"end":14049.13,"text":"好 主委好 這個我們過去NCC然後又從NCC分出了成立了非常大的部 速發部比這個NCC還大 人力還比較多吧人力預算都比我們多對 預算非常的多"},{"start":14050.253,"end":14078.107,"text":"然後人力職員 業聘僱人員非常非常的多然後所謂的打詐國家隊結果我們的詐欺案件越來越高經費增加了這麼多人力增加了這麼多法律也制定了 也修正了"},{"start":14081.576,"end":14102.916,"text":"這個從一個 主委 你因為你是公務員出身過期在中華電信 也在過去的交通部油電師也在這個國家通訊傳播委員會 任職多年所以這個部分"},{"start":14104.338,"end":14133.136,"text":"要真的是要怎麼樣去解決這些問題這個雖然你現在是代理我們應該要設法怎麼去解決這樣的一個目前的現況當然最重要的政府機關的體制怎麼樣能夠運作然後當然很重要的就是人民人民"},{"start":14134.79,"end":14158.996,"text":"不要被這個詐欺案件相關的這些財損不斷的增加你看從2020到現在到2024這是去年的這個金額都不斷的攀升怎麼樣去想這些方法所以這個我有時候因為正好速發部要成立的時候我是很"},{"start":14160.351,"end":14170.877,"text":"很反對的 那當時沒辦法那時候民進黨在立法院絕對多數 他要通過就通過了結果一點績效都沒有這個"},{"start":14174.796,"end":14195.311,"text":"跟我們報告其實這個打架是打架國家對局相關機關五個行政機關大概是相互合作那數位部這邊其實也非常的努力那我們跟他NCC跟他其實也有合作上的一些關係就比方說剛剛也前面有跟前奧委員答覆比方說我們把社債號碼也會"},{"start":14197.972,"end":14218.842,"text":"轉資給他們然後就他所管的這個電商平台社交平台上的一些帳號虛位的帳號做一些處理那過去在通訊軟體大概零三除掉四萬多因為不只是NCC還有這個速發部還有公平教育委員會"},{"start":14220.536,"end":14248.46,"text":"都有關係啊所以這個部分這個真的我自己看了也是很無奈啊到底是怎麼一回事增加了這麼多的人力增加了這麼多的經費法也制定了結果呢你看看現在最新的消息炸團都跑到國軍而且在馬祖馬防部你看看"},{"start":14249.962,"end":14277.72,"text":"這麼嚴重所以這個部分真的是一個作為一個公務員出身的我也是公務員出身所以我們怎麼樣去解決這些問題都要加油了好 我們已經請同仁去跟打架指揮中心來聯繫看看我們哪邊可以著力來處理的部分最後 這個我已經提了很久中華民國的法例什麼時候變成"},{"start":14279.44,"end":14293.398,"text":"有限廣播電視法第45條這是你主管的嘛是有限廣播電視法第45條105年1月6號在馬英九執政的最後一年"},{"start":14294.557,"end":14323.471,"text":"前文修正然後特別提到系統經營者因每年按當年營業額1%之金額提繳至中央主管機關也就是NCC成立之特種基金這裡面第一款第二項的第一款30%本來是中央主管機關統籌應用有限廣播電視普及發展還有地方政府"},{"start":14324.377,"end":14347.691,"text":"很重要的就是說百分之三十監政財長法人公共電視文化事業基金會前項第三款是停止實施日期由行政院定制各位報告這部分我們都有持續在徵詢這個文化部的一些意見主委我已經聽得M變了文化部文化部問題是文化部"},{"start":14349.285,"end":14376.768,"text":"他就不提啊我也執行過文化部啊當時的主任委員現在是行政院副院長啊我都執行過啊所以這個部分你看像這樣的一個你看我們這個我們就講公司跟財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會的預算的比較這是114年度的你看差距那麼大"},{"start":14380.464,"end":14405.255,"text":"對不對公司近年大概業務上有新增加台灣Plus跟公司兒少台所以他的所管轄的事項也不是這樣多啦也不應該差距那麼多你知道我們原住民族有幾族嗎16族16族的語言我們的記者都要到全省了我們有50%"},{"start":14408.49,"end":14437.096,"text":"自己在都會區在沿鄉也有40%將近50%一半一半所以要跑全台灣的公視都是就是來立法院而已他們的記者就是來立法院而已我們雖然還要到偏鄉都會區我們有16族的語言現在還要加什麼還要加平埔平埔有族群他已經法律通過了平埔原住民"},{"start":14438.072,"end":14459.459,"text":"也是十幾族呢所以這個部分這個我們會持續配合行政院不是配合啦因為法律寫行政院定制啊 行政院叫我們你們要簽啊 法 主管機關法律是 你是法律的主管機關你要簽報給行政院啊對不對好 我們後續會來持續處理好 謝謝好 謝謝偉好 謝謝鄭天才委員"},{"start":14469.429,"end":14496.022,"text":"今天都是要問代理主委好 接下來再請優浩委員質詢代理主委可以先喝個水那謝謝召委 那有請主委好 來陳代理主委請優委員好"},{"start":14496.914,"end":14513.793,"text":"好 那代理主委好那延續剛才鄭天才委員所提到的有限電視法第45條其中30%的部分是中央40%的部分是回到地方縣市政府另外30%是給基金使用那在南投縣的話也有產聯這個優等獎"},{"start":14515.675,"end":14530.555,"text":"那我想要救救一下主委那當然在南投縣他都是以這個集集大山的電視轉播站他也來去做這個訊號的發射那來協助南投縣的有線電視相關的一個普及包括在偏鄉的部分那可以解決這個數位落差的問題"},{"start":14531.696,"end":14557.127,"text":"那另外我想要就教一下主委那另外在中央的30%那對於提升南投偏鄉的部分有做出什麼樣具體的內容嗎可以舉今年為例我們負責30%部分主要是做一些這個依據油管法規定做一些普及有限的普及還有特別是離島的一些不經濟地區一些補助那還有一些獎勵這個"},{"start":14558.948,"end":14573.773,"text":"有限電視業者地方頻道的一些製作那目前這邊都有在持續處理這些大方向的我清楚但是那這30%的話對於今年南投線有特別提升了些哪些或是數位落差的問題解決嗎直接針對南投線在今年講就可以"},{"start":14575.578,"end":14592.238,"text":"好 那南投縣的部分 那屬於我們NCC的部分 我們有有給當地的業者有做有200多萬的一些 請他們做一些這個相關這個寬頻補給 4K計算盒的鋪設這些這些那除了這個之外 還有其他嗎"},{"start":14593.433,"end":14613.295,"text":"其他的因為我們未來新制度有針對偏向會得額外的去挖出一塊然後跟根據全台灣地區的偏向的比例來做一些分配那未來如果南投線這邊應該是會相對會有比較多的一些資源基金方面的部分有沒有針對南投線做出什麼樣的一個貢獻或是內容"},{"start":14614.836,"end":14629.651,"text":"當地有限電視業者應該製作好幾部的地方有地方特色的一些地方文化的一些影片好 那還是把這個部分近三年度有關於相關的這些相關影片的清單也提供給本席辦公室"},{"start":14631.051,"end":14650.899,"text":"本身還是希望就是說在偏鄉的話通訊跟數位落差相對是較為嚴重那在地方的縣市政府確實也有在這個部分來去照顧弱勢族群但是在中央的部分希望這30%的部分還是花在刀口上也確實協助地方來做改善"},{"start":14651.559,"end":14673.349,"text":"那除了剛才200多萬來補助地方的有錢電視業者那當然地方的有錢電視業者確實也是用心在經營啦這個因為也就那麼一家那但是總是希望還在這個解決南投偏鄉的這個部分還能夠更為有效普及因為在各種的一個情況發生的時候那都是一種管道"},{"start":14674.525,"end":14694.052,"text":"是跟我們報告在通信的部分那因為主改之後電信普及服務目前已經為出發部管理但是在相關的一些基地台的偏遠地區的一些基地台的建設那當初業者合併案的時候我們都要求在偏鄉要廣為部件那這邊他們都有在處理"},{"start":14695.732,"end":14712.391,"text":"因應極端氣候的部分那偏鄉地區的高抗災基地台我們這邊都有持續在關注讓偏鄉地區讓抑制災的地區都能夠有相應的一些防一些因應準備這我知道那同樣的本席要就交到主委那在目前在賴清德總統他提到了"},{"start":14712.952,"end":14725.185,"text":"就是不管是要對美投資10兆或者是在軍購的部分要購買這1兆2500億那這個有沒有排擠到中央政府總預算或者是NCC的相關經費"},{"start":14727.149,"end":14750.746,"text":"因為基於主席總書要求各機關編列是臨機預算那也會參考前一年的一些決算情形目前大致上對NCC這邊是相對還可以還沒有特別的一些影響好那同樣的這本冊子不知道主委你有沒有看過有我們家裡都有收到對那你有沒有NCC有沒有參與這個冊子相關的一個編列或是相關的會議"},{"start":14751.947,"end":14771.664,"text":"沒有直接參與但是有有有間接協同開會那你把這本冊子打幾分我覺得大家都是敬意求親應該應該應該都不會不會說應該都不會說就滿足啦應該會希望會越來越好那我直接跟這位主委講這本冊子第一頁就列著賴清德賴總統"},{"start":14772.785,"end":14788.797,"text":"他也明示了2027他也預期了兩岸的話會有戰爭的風險那在NCC對於目前來講有限電視的傳播在地方的普及如何能夠在相關的緊急情況發生的時候有做了各種準備"},{"start":14790.556,"end":14818.235,"text":"有線電視在緊急情況的角色其實在過往SARS或者COVID-19的時候都有我們會有那頻道徵用在跑馬燈這邊會有處理那特別時期的話其實在某些頻道可以特別去類似的提供使用像公視那我們每年的災防者都有在演練不管是戰爭風險或者是重大的這種天災的時候有辦法確保這個有線電視的傳播大家收訊都還是能夠正常嗎"},{"start":14819.077,"end":14840.496,"text":"跟委員報告在結構在技術上有限的東西其實它沒有腳不會跑其實相對風險比較高它只要把機房炸了大概相對就它的韌性就沒那麼強當然有限電視也有部分會用一些無線來傳輸來處理比方說它的頭端是接收衛星頻道訊號但是它到家戶那邊其實都是走有限的"},{"start":14841.577,"end":14849.39,"text":"在這樣子的一本手冊的編列那NCC有開過相關的會有參與過這本手冊編列或是相關的會議嗎"},{"start":14850.564,"end":14875.275,"text":"相關會議都是跨部會在參與是主委參加嗎是我們相關同仁去參加所以主委你對這個會議討論的內容其實並沒有實際參與我個人是沒有實際參與但是他們參加會議都會回來報告我們大概只知道說在重要時刻緊急時刻的一些通訊上無線是比較保有韌性無線包括天上的就是衛星"},{"start":14876.135,"end":14893.303,"text":"那同樣的就是說這本手冊歸這本手冊那在假如賴清德總統他預言了2027年的時候那在各種一個任性的準備或是緊急狀況的一個準備在目前NCC有沒有參加過任何一場會議除了這個之外"},{"start":14894.222,"end":14920.242,"text":"相關任性的會議我們都有持續在配合相關單位的召集都有參加那所以說除了NCC到時候跑馬燈的功能之外還有其他的相關的方案嗎主要都是涉及在電信通訊這邊的部分就是緊急情況之後如何這個漫遊如何讓這個最大的訊息能夠通訊的量重要的軍情指揮體系能夠保持暢通"},{"start":14921.963,"end":14939.302,"text":"那個總是希望能夠強化所以說這個部分大致上還是希望能夠精進那另外剛才洪孟凱委員他稍微有提到的這個靜電視跟陳水扁合開的節目的部分那這個部分主委有沒有要補充呼籲的"},{"start":14941.047,"end":14968.358,"text":"就是現行這件事他是不能夠開這個政論節目那如果他有開因為這個是目前是說明年會有這個可能會發生那如果他發生的話我們會就來處理那我們也跟相關業者來提醒說他目前是沒有辦法來開政論節目他當然有來跟我們申請政論節目但是我們現在沒有委員會也沒辦法處理所以他有來申請政論節目嗎"},{"start":14969.258,"end":14984.319,"text":"有 營運計畫申請變更說他要開正宗節目好 那最後我要補充問一下主委就是目前全台灣的審查制度啊那NCC的相關的諮詢委員會的委員有沒有向社會大界公告過"},{"start":14985.47,"end":15012.77,"text":"目前是沒有那為什麼不公開因為依據政府諮詢公開法他的諮詢委員只是提供NCC委員會議審議相關案件的提供參考建議他是政府機關做成一致諮詢的資訊像環評委員就可以公開促參委員也可以公開 書院委員也可以公開大學評鑑委員也可以公開那為什麼就NCC的這個諮詢委員他就沒有辦法公開"},{"start":15013.47,"end":15031.838,"text":"委員會這個我有研究過這個環評委員會他的決議其實有一定的拘束力那任何重大建設案環評委員會不同意的他絕對不能override他說我就是要照做不行那我們NCC諮詢節目廣告諮詢會深色憑借換照的諮詢會議的他是純粹跟NCC委員會"},{"start":15033.379,"end":15061.078,"text":"所以今天來講在這個諮詢委員會的NCC的相關審查中他反而更是要跟社會大界公開更應該讓社會大界能夠了解那其他的部會他有辦法做到這個地步那為什麼NCC他沒有辦法公開這個資訊那其實本席還是建議就是說這個部分的話希望針對這個公開的諮詢委員的部分也一樣給交通委員會一個相關的一個"},{"start":15063.139,"end":15079.412,"text":"討論的報告因為這個部分諮詢委員本來他的獨立性他就應該可受檢驗那在今天在討論這個就是黨軍軍退出媒體的部分那我們連諮詢委員我們都沒有辦法去了解裡面的成員那如何能夠做到利益迴避"},{"start":15079.972,"end":15106.38,"text":"那我坦白講這種東西也不應該是黑箱也不應該是不可以讓大家所知道應該是要可受社會公平可以公開檢驗所以本席還是會認為在這樣子的一個資訊委員應該要公開那同時不公開的理由我坦白講也是要用書面的部分送交交通委員會讓各委員參考那這個問題可以持續來在委員會做探討因為我坦白講社會各界應該是希望"},{"start":15106.86,"end":15126.415,"text":"他的諮詢委員的獨立性是可受公平尤其是我們在討論黨政軍推出媒體這些委員應該要能夠經得起考驗好 我們會把報告準備好給交通委員會好 謝謝有報委員 謝謝委員來 代理主委請回好 接下來請賴世保委員諮詢"},{"start":15130.626,"end":15145.06,"text":"那我們宣告一下交通委員會我們因為還有9位委員那我們就讓他執行完畢所以我們這相關官員大家辛苦謝謝主席及各位先進有請我們的陳代理主委陳代理主委請"},{"start":15150.751,"end":15179.387,"text":"那委員午安你午安喔我就請教很簡單的問題很重要很簡單的問題今天我們主席啊拍這個題目非常好就是好幾個委員有提的這個這個廣電法衛星廣電法的修正案衛星廣電法的修正案那有人講說這些案子如果通過中天是不是可以復台是不是"},{"start":15181.08,"end":15205.018,"text":"就目前的條文的話目前係數對關係條件符合的目前大概就是委員所提的就是如果我們今天的條文這個通過的話中間可以附台對不對這是一個另外一個是如果法院判決你們一路輸到底他也可以附台啊"},{"start":15206.93,"end":15222.708,"text":"这个就地程序其实相关的电视台个案上的电视台他已经做过了在行政诉讼法116条第二项第三项都有规定那案官的那个案的那电视台他已经采取这个行动了只是法院都给他比较驳回的一些处理"},{"start":15223.757,"end":15250.435,"text":"法院最好還沒有final啦我們看一下中天當初被關新聞台被關講四大原因什麼申訴太多啦內控的問題啦新聞自播受不當的干擾啦中天所提的意見不能夠具體的改善等等四大 你們發的新聞稿 四大理由其實這四大理由我敢說可以apply到現在綠美的每一家電視台他們沒有干預嗎"},{"start":15253.891,"end":15281.764,"text":"我也不相信了顏色那麼的清楚立場那麼的鮮明怎麼沒有干預所以如果用這個角度來看當時候做出中立新聞官台到底是一個政治判決政治決定就是NCC變成扼殺新聞自由言論自由的筷子手NCC自甘墮落變成東廠"},{"start":15283.685,"end":15311.284,"text":"變這個樣子 你聽我講完先不要急因為這個大法官解釋689號也講得很清楚啊新聞自由啊所以我們就委員提出來要要換照除非有什麼條件否則應該准予換照為原則這個立場你接受嗎准予換照為原則 你接受嗎為了保障新聞自由"},{"start":15311.984,"end":15335.526,"text":"跟委員報告 我們是建議說這是要整體配套來看那因為換照本身是會讓是要保證 是要確保這個新聞頻道的節目品質本於專業來播送那如果說換照這邊鬆了這是結構性管制這邊鬆的話那其實結構管制那一邊其實要對應 要相應的一些相應調整處理所以你還是要繼續嚴格喔"},{"start":15337.107,"end":15351.214,"text":"這個你沒有這麼大的權力喔如果今天修法通過的話你沒有這麼大的權力喔你現在想要握住那個權力喔不是 這個本來為了維護身分自由就是應該准你換照除非他犯了很大的錯誤"},{"start":15352.415,"end":15374.184,"text":"我們委員有提案啦除非這個九次以下 九次以上除非罰款累計罰款五百萬以上但是那個罰款都是要確定等於是確定之後等於法院確定之後這裡面大家可以告來告去的那我就請教你啊你們到現在為止啊 庭審啊"},{"start":15376.826,"end":15389.677,"text":"有的一次官司可能三次庭審 四次庭審 五次庭審你們26拜耶 你們一次拜各位報告那是重複計算不同審級的一審二審那其實如果以中判來看的話"},{"start":15391.104,"end":15416.222,"text":"案關電視台26件採取案目前是兩件海調輸送當中24件已經確定24件裡頭有7件NCC是敗訴另外17件裡頭是已經確定的11件NCC勝訴6件是那家電視台沒有提送其實論比例的話我們NCC目前敗訴的只有7件我請問你NCC你明年度編了多少預算要打罐師600多萬"},{"start":15418.742,"end":15428.611,"text":"各位報告 六百多元是包括其他電信領域的還有法律事務費 包括要請專家協職的因為它是掛在產業心理訴訟的這個還要給你錢來當筷子手是不是各位報告 我們也有還包括電信的來 我現在問你就是說你剛剛講的是不是 我要確定一下"},{"start":15441.451,"end":15449.139,"text":"或者修法通過或者行政院最後 不是 司法院法院最後判定讓中天可以復台 這兩條路對吧"},{"start":15451.948,"end":15474.461,"text":"好 那如果是這樣 譬如說我們修法通過了 請問可以直接赴台嗎 還是要經過你們委員會要經過委員會 而且赴台如果說照黨團的版本的話 要回到原來的平位這邊是有極大的困難度 因為那是跟有限電視做商業協商 那是商業機制 是第三方人的利益"},{"start":15474.881,"end":15493.576,"text":"這邊NCC不是一個行政機關說我要永運電視請你把原來的房客找回來把現在的房客請走這個不是這麼容易處理的所以也就是說用百萬文講中天新聞如果即便復台他不可能在50號台這樣對吧難度很大"},{"start":15496.707,"end":15511.564,"text":"你會講不可能嗎對 幾乎不可能幾乎不可能換一個主委可能就可能了不是 因為他現在52台的你不可能 換別人就可能了因為52台的涵蓋率只有75% 還有25%52台現在收視率這麼低啊你有沒有看 華氏經營不好啊"},{"start":15516.229,"end":15532.932,"text":"他是公廣集團會以公廣集團的使命為主所以他相關的製作上的取向的風格就很清楚嘛這個把中天新聞趕走由民進黨政府的手伸進來公廣集團伸進來就變這個樣子啊所以我要奉勸這個代理主委你這個"},{"start":15540.794,"end":15561.265,"text":"我還是希望你能夠維持新聞自由能夠採取跟歐美先進國家一樣對於新聞台要低密度管理低密度管理原則要核准NC一直都擁護新聞自由哪裡有 陳耀祥你們以前的主委筷子手一個是不是我們來看我們希望立法院能夠順利的修法通過讓仲天可以赴台"},{"start":15570.109,"end":15586.615,"text":"我覺得中天互打的意義非常大就是代表我們新聞自由被殘害有撥亂反正的那麼一天我覺得這是有一定是意義的謝謝謝謝委員來 謝謝賴世鮑委員來 待會請回接下來請楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員發言楊瓊英委員不在徐富奎委員請質詢"},{"start":15605.945,"end":15629.095,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們陳代理主委陳代理主委請 謝謝主委午安 辛苦了我想這一次這個衛星廣播電視法的修法當然我看剛剛在野黨的委員那也挖了很多陷阱題這個要讓主委跳 主委要小心"},{"start":15630.395,"end":15650.892,"text":"這個我想不管是庭審也好甚至我們合理編合法編列的一個預算我想這個不是針對特定媒體在處理那所以我想這次的修法也引起社會高度的一個關注那這個版本的修訂我想可以討論但是不能被質疑成幫特定媒體來量身解套的一個問題那"},{"start":15652.853,"end":15673.388,"text":"我們看了一下這次修法的內容裡面 包含換照朝準的原則推進 第二個將原本裁量的審查標準直接寫死 第三個撤照後仍然可以繼續營運直到所有的救濟結束 第四個部分條文還帶有溯及既往的一個效果"},{"start":15674.068,"end":15694.158,"text":"我想這些的條文的修正真的讓外界高度的質疑真的是在幫業者特定的業者來做解套那所以我想諸葦本身是公務體系出身我們要求公務體系就是要依法行政那甚至我們在這個制度面上也應該要有這樣的一個堅持跟諸葦認同這個說法嗎"},{"start":15696.44,"end":15713.242,"text":"認同那其實一般的一般的通念常理都認為說個案式立法是比較不適合那他的對公共利益上他是侷限於特定的個案特定的一個小小的集合群體的話其實是一般是認為是不應該做個案式的立法"},{"start":15714.324,"end":15737.561,"text":"所以我想 主委 這個修法如果讓監理機關的財量空間從此被壓縮到最低那我們的審查是不是會失去公信力那甚至我們的監理應該保有一個基本的一個審查的一個界線不要這個修法讓外界產生這個立法干預個案的一個疑慮 主委到目前為止前面十幾個委員 您自己有什麼看法"},{"start":15738.722,"end":15761.86,"text":"我們看法大概跟我們報告上一樣就是三權分立那如果立法權這邊會侵蝕這個行政機關的一些權限處理的話那也順便把行政訴訟法116條這個司法權這邊也給去侵蝕的話我們是覺得這邊的分際要如何拿捏其實應該可以好好的討論"},{"start":15762.66,"end":15787.384,"text":"那畢竟這個這個116條 行政訴訟法116條第一項的這些例外情況是相當相當相當的少幾乎是沒有所以我想我們行政機關跟立法機關我們應該互相尊重那當然我們立法院必須要監督行政院這是我們的職責但是主委也應該要堅守我們的原則那另外我想我還是要特別再提到我們屏東的一個高抗災紀律台的一個部分"},{"start":15788.364,"end":15815.617,"text":"這個從去年我上任之後我一直在追這個案子那尤其屏東縣過去因為這個我們極端氣候的影響颱風這個豪雨會造成我們一個通訊的一個問題那尤其我們很多的一些偏鄉包含原鄉的部分我們很需要這個很有力的一個很強大的一個通訊的一個系統來做一個救災的一個處理所以那這部分我記得我上次也特別提過那目前就屏東的這個基地台部件的進度來講"},{"start":15816.377,"end":15845.613,"text":"目前我們有沒有什麼最新的一個進度有但我們在2014年下半年其實在今年年底應該會再完成至少三個高抗災基地台在林邊跟在牡丹那邊那過去幾年我們都有持續在委員的指導之下這個高抗災基地台都有持續在屏東這邊都有持續增加在全國各地的偏鄉或醫治災地區我們都有持續來跟督導業者來做一些相應的一些部署部件"},{"start":15847.173,"end":15872.021,"text":"主委當然我知道這個要建置高抗災基地台也有一些相關的一些要件包含我們這個整個光纖微波衛星還有要有72小時的倍元的一個電力甚至要耐15級以上的一個強風那最重要我們覺得可以結合一些我們公有的一些建築設施能夠增設這個基地台我想針對這部分不是只有屏東應該是我們全台很多的"},{"start":15872.461,"end":15893.374,"text":"一些地方應該都要做這樣全面性的一個來建置檢討 所以這部分應該能不能加快進度有 我們像公有建物提供的話我們推動以來大概全國有819個點這個公家機關來提供當然這個最積極 配合度最高是交通部所屬的郵局等等 因為"},{"start":15893.934,"end":15919.271,"text":"以前是在電總時期在推電總當年是在交通部下面所以交通部所屬機關配合度最高今年在丹納斯之後相關經濟部體系的或台電的相關變電所需我們都有在處理目前大概應該會有至少兩個就是嘉義的中嘉跟雲林的水林那邊都有應該已經是完工了"},{"start":15920.131,"end":15947.657,"text":"那蓄電所部分屏東這邊委員所在地的訪僚那邊也有兩個站點我們會來規劃來建置處理主委我想這個屏東要建置的地方真的是很多啦那我們希望我們一個月之內是不是NCC把我們屏東縣可以建置的一些地點包含可行性的評估的部分能不能把這個說明資料給本席這邊是沒問題我們會儘快準備"},{"start":15948.237,"end":15968.875,"text":"我想這個一定要趕快超前部署尤其我們面臨這個極端氣候的一個挑戰屏東不能成為這個通訊的一個邊陲地帶那我們應該加快建置這樣屏東的一個整個電信的一個電網的一個韌性通信的一個韌性主委一起來努力好我們會一起努力持續跟找電信業者來一起來投入這方面"},{"start":15969.551,"end":15996.505,"text":"好 那最後我想這個剛剛也有很多委員提到 我們現在委員人數不足沒得開會 那所以沒得開會的狀況之下 會造成包含衛星廣播電視的執照換照這個頻道的上下架 董監事的變更甚至重要的法規的一個修訂 還有超過430項的一個待決的一個案件 都因為委員無法 委員會無法召開而停擺那主委你有自己有什麼對策嗎"},{"start":15997.909,"end":16023.536,"text":"我們現在就是我們在我們對策下修改的這個內部授權的規定還有分辨負責等等這些都是處理完那剛剛委員講400多件是說我們在我們能夠處理範圍內之外的都沒辦法處理目前就是從文之一會開完到現在有400多件保留那剛剛委員特別提到說很重大跟業者有關的說他換照案到今年年底會有104件那如果到明年"},{"start":16025.059,"end":16029.693,"text":"明年6月底的話會有156件這個我們都是希望說這方面能夠盡快來解決"},{"start":16031.38,"end":16057.171,"text":"主委 這個知識體大耶 是 尤其我想這個我們國內很多重要的電視台跟廣播的一個系統如果因為委員會沒辦法開議開會造成這樣子無法換照面臨違規營運的一個風險我想這個會影響影響到整個產業的一個秩序還有民眾收視的一個權益問題那尤其更重要就是對於我們國家這個媒體治理的一個重大的議案都因為這樣的"},{"start":16058.291,"end":16074.444,"text":"我們的一個委員會沒辦法組成 受到很大的一個衝擊我想這個不是政治的一個惡鬥 應該要關心到我們整個國家的一個發展所以未來我想這個剛剛有提到 您後續會不會再跟這個我們相關的單位來做一個反應 盡快的補足這個"},{"start":16075.244,"end":16091.962,"text":"我們會反映 那委員講到重點就是即便是今天所提的衛港法修正案它在執行面很多都是涉及到文組織法九條二項的保留事項要有委員會議 沒有委員會議的話即便是法通過也會面臨這個難以執行的一些情況"},{"start":16093.044,"end":16110.696,"text":"對啦 尤其你看我們那個洪昭偉我想一般不會 不會善罷甘休啦 這個案子如果不趕快處理我想他也應該會窮追猛打啦所以我想未來我們怎麼樣針對NCC的一個制度能夠運轉 我想也需要我們朝野共同來努力 要讓人家有人有經緣可以做事情啦謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":16115.933,"end":16140.554,"text":"好 感謝徐副魁委員感謝代理主委所以解鈴還需細鈴人行政院長趕快提出專業公正客觀的人選送來立法院讓立法院趕快來審查我想這才是正本清源之道謝謝再來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在請陳樹悅委員自選"},{"start":16154.049,"end":16157.995,"text":"好 謝謝主席請主席邀請陳代理主委是 陳代理主委請請問"},{"start":16164.473,"end":16188.37,"text":"主委午安我們看到這個無國界記者組織每年都會為世界各國的評比這個世界自由新聞自由那這個也是最具公信力也是最客觀的一個調查那我們看到2025年最新的世界新聞自由指數的評比那台灣今年上升了三名全球排名第24繼續採點亞洲第一"},{"start":16190.692,"end":16216.52,"text":"那在我們反觀這個中國排名今年是再降6名是倒數第178名排名178是全球倒數第三是被評比為非常嚴峻而且被形容為世界最大記者監獄的一個國家那我們看到這個圖表我們台灣可以說僅次於北歐然後跟加拿大"},{"start":16217.12,"end":16233.895,"text":"還有美國跟澳洲都是並列的就是在屬於狀況尚可的一個新聞自由的一個國度所以我們應該要非常珍惜我們台灣目前的這樣子的一個成果在這個民主自由的國家就是言論自由"},{"start":16234.455,"end":16262.424,"text":"新聞自由是可以受到保障的那這個新聞媒體可以說是第四權那他們也是負有這個就是監督的一個責任然後透過就是公正的一個報導讓社會大眾可以知道這個真實的事實的一個真相所以據這樣子的一個就是新聞報導的一個責任就是新聞媒體他們應該要本於良知做"},{"start":16262.964,"end":16291.873,"text":"事實客觀的一個報導這樣子才能夠對得起他們的良心可是我們覺得我們看到就是說有一些新聞媒體卻是故意惡意的做了一些不實的一個報導引起了一些社會的一個動盪不安就是我們NCC是新聞媒體的一個主管機關所以我們對所有的新聞媒體都有就是一致的一個就是審查跟要求 是不是"},{"start":16292.307,"end":16318.043,"text":"是那聽委員所提到的這個我們國內的新聞自由度在全世界的排名是相當的名列前沿那當然是代表國內的電視媒體特別是新聞台的部分其實是意見多元就是自由奔放但是自由奔放之餘依據這個大法官4-364號解釋其實還是一定的規範就是我們今天報告所提到的制度性保障給你這個制度"},{"start":16318.363,"end":16342.285,"text":"但是你相對應的都是政府機關還是要給你一個適度的一些管制措施所以這邊如果有違反這個威廣法27條的事實差異部分我們都會來做一個依法來處理對就是說要有這些媒體都是要有遵守這樣一定的一個規範就是不能例外那如果違規的話當然我們就是有一定的一個處罰處分是不是"},{"start":16344.306,"end":16360.292,"text":"是 那目前就是深色平線換照是一個體系的那換照的目的就在就像林子儀大法官所講的這是一個來獲取這個新聞自由新聞專業的一個確保的對應的配套措施"},{"start":16360.996,"end":16386.467,"text":"是那我們今天委員會就是針對這個衛星廣播電視法這個修正草案進行這個詢答那我們看到有委員提案就是針對第17條有增訂的這個條文就是說執照遭註銷之衛星廣播電視事業及境外衛星廣播電視事業之分公司或代理商若提起行政救濟於訴願期間或行政訴訟確定"},{"start":16388.128,"end":16409.799,"text":"判決前執照繼續有效本條修正通過後這個效率溯及既往適用徵送中的案件那這一個徵定的條文裡面很明顯的他有個兩個重點就是遭註銷的這個就是這個對象處分對象然後還能夠溯及既往那我想請教我們什麼狀況會註銷這個衛星廣播電視他們的這個許可"},{"start":16415.462,"end":16434.545,"text":"是的當然再問換照辦法微工法18條有規定說我們要審查要看的重點項目如果他這些項目如果相對的那個表現如果不好的話在諮詢會議都會提出建議在文文會議也會做個審理那以這個個案上其實在文文上文會議之前都已經舉"},{"start":16437.287,"end":16464.786,"text":"舉辦過聽證會那相關的程序都已經是透明公開那這種情況就是要確保新聞專業自由的能夠持續的維持那如果像這個這種條款通過的話其實它都是行政訴訟法116條第一項的一些例外情況那這個例外情況其實剛剛司法院的前輩法官有提到這種情況其實是相對跟一般通念上是不同的那也是很少見的"},{"start":16465.586,"end":16481.702,"text":"那朔即既往那這種情況兩個加在一起其實某種程度就是比較相應更為罕見那是不是比較傾向於說是讓人家會連結成說這是個案式立法這個也是需要加以思考的地方"},{"start":16482.441,"end":16507.73,"text":"是就是說我們如果沒有違規就不可能被註銷所以被註銷就是有違反我們的規定的所以我覺得說這個條文特別針對說遭註銷的這樣子的一個被處分對象來替他解套我覺得這樣子的一個條文真的是非常的不適當我覺得身為一個立法委員應該要也要有這個法律的一個素養然後提出這樣的法案我覺得真的是一笑大方"},{"start":16508.63,"end":16534.051,"text":"那再請教主委就是目前遭註銷然後在進行行政訴訟當中的有幾家媒體目前所知就是那一家就是中天新聞所以這個條文的修訂就是非常的針對性就是要特別為中天尋求解套要讓他復活是不是就這條件來組合下去確實答案就是委員所講的"},{"start":16534.801,"end":16548.711,"text":"是那我們是不是可以請陳大祖在針對這個中天新聞他在申請換照時候在我們審議駁回那當時他被駁回的原因大概是什麼可不可以說明一下四個原因第一個是"},{"start":16550.852,"end":16574.327,"text":"他的那個違規遭民眾投訴量非常的大第二個是107年平靜後他的內控跟自律機制失靈第三個是他的新聞直播遭受不斷干擾這個在聽證會都有相關的證據出示在法院那邊都有舉出來那第四個就是"},{"start":16575.629,"end":16581.56,"text":"該台所提的補充意見跟承諾比較能夠不容易看到它未來有沒有改善的可能"},{"start":16582.441,"end":16604.72,"text":"所以我們看到他的違規的統計表真的是非常多包括違反公序良俗還有包括這個違反兒少法還有這個性侵害防治犯罪防治法等等這些我想這些都是我們沒有辦法去允許的所以我相信這個就是社會大眾也沒有辦法接受他們這樣子的一個違規那我們也看到"},{"start":16605.46,"end":16627.215,"text":"很具體的例子在2019年的時候他們有一則這個新聞報導說這個文旦丟在水庫超過200萬斤這樣子的一個不實報導引起的後續的一個影響是造成這個農民的一個很大的損失那後來這個就是"},{"start":16629.036,"end":16655.874,"text":"就是說講出這樣子一個訊息的一個誠信農民的妻子她後來說她的老公是口誤而已所以我覺得說在造成這樣子的一個假訊息之後然後後續才簡單的說用口誤這樣子來帶過我覺得這樣子真的是沒有辦法接受的一個狀況因為造成農民農產品的一個交易順序的一個損失我想這個是非常嚴重的一個"},{"start":16656.334,"end":16670.883,"text":"然後對整個社會的一個安定也是造成很大的一個衝擊我想這個都是社會大眾沒有辦法接受的所以我覺得說新聞媒體他們應該自己要有自律那沒有辦法自律他們應該就是說在整個"},{"start":16671.863,"end":16688.929,"text":"我們監督單位我們NCC的這樣子的一個規範之下他們也必須要遵守才對所以今天就是國民黨的委員特別為他們提出了這樣子的一個解套的一個條文我想社會自有公平雖然後來我相信在之後的一個"},{"start":16689.409,"end":16713.467,"text":"不管是表決或者是在院會的表決上我們因為在我們執政黨的委員就是委員數比較少我想他們還是會強行過關所以對這樣子的後果我想我們雖然不樂意見那在他們強行通過之後我想這個也是社會大眾沒有辦法接受的我想這個之後當然就是留待大家的一個公平謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":16719.397,"end":16745.528,"text":"好謝謝來接下來請蔡議員委員蔡議員委員蔡議員委員不在請葉元之委員質詢主席好麻煩請代理主委謝謝陳代理主委請葉委員午安"},{"start":16746.243,"end":16759.114,"text":"代理主委 先跟你確定一下像您的第一任的NCC主委委員任期是到什麼時候第一任的就是這一任95年的第一任是到97年你自己啦我的任期到明年7月底"},{"start":16760.188,"end":16783.358,"text":"到明年七月底所以大概剩七個多月那這個我不知道有沒有開始在徵詢你留任的意願有沒有目前沒有 還沒有現在NCC還缺四個委員那除了你之外另外兩個委員任期到什麼時候都一樣 這一批都是到七月底那你有感覺到行政院很重視NCC這個單位嗎"},{"start":16785.459,"end":16804.995,"text":"現在有四個委員到現在都雖然之前有提但是都之前提來也不溝通然後審完之後也沒有後續了好像也不認為這個NCC有運作沒運作有什麼差別你們現在你們的任期到明年7月又要結束了到時候會不會NCC都沒有委員直接組密代理組委"},{"start":16805.635,"end":16832.273,"text":"沒有 照我們組織法規定委員會前幾個月要提名在組織法是規定我跟你講組織法有規定但是現在的行政院沒有在理組織法的像那個公共電視按照公事法的規定應該是在去年11月就要提董事名單過來結果董事都已經延任了好幾個月了都沒看到名單所以現在行政院沒有在按照法律在辦事的所以不用扯那個組織法出來"},{"start":16834.134,"end":16853.181,"text":"我想跟請教一下最近大家在關心小紅書被禁這件事情因為行政院他用的是打詐當理由但NCC照道理來講打詐跟NCC很有關係而且小紅書我怎麼看都應該算是NCC的業務因為NCC的你們的組織法裡面就是規定"},{"start":16854.341,"end":16880.749,"text":"你是網際網路傳播政策制定法令訂定的相關單位嗎所以有關於網際網路的傳播的政策跟網際網路有關的應該都是NCC要扮演很關鍵角色而且是可以影響的那我想問一下小紅書這樣子被封一年站在網際網路主管機關的NCC的看法是什麼"},{"start":16881.291,"end":16899.002,"text":"好是謝謝委員跟委員報告我們的組織法規定NCC是網際網路傳播政策的訂定等等那個就是源頭端某種程度那以我某種程度就是說屬於源頭端的政策的訂定但是還要搭配一個"},{"start":16899.802,"end":16928.584,"text":"還要搭配好 那沒關係因為時間關係我想請教一下他們現在在訂這個政策之前有選過你們嗎有去開會嗎有去開會那你們的意見是什麼小紅樹這塊你們的意見是什麼它是APP因為這不是NCC主政所以沒有沒有它是屬於網際網路的一個很重要的平台對現在有300萬的台灣300萬的用戶但是所以它是很廣大的但是因為我覺得這很奇怪是NCC常常都沒有數位匯流的概念"},{"start":16929.584,"end":16940.313,"text":"以前網路歸網路電視歸電視然後大家金稅不犯河水但是在數位匯流之後其實很多東西都變同一件事情根本很簡單一個概念是說所以你們針對這個網際網路尤其是小紅書這麼大的平台你認為該進就可以直接進嗎"},{"start":16948.72,"end":16972.852,"text":"網際網路平台太陽很多種屬於OTTV視訊部分是NCC管其他屬於那個商業經濟或廣告的是數位部在主管那請教一下小紅書是屬於那一塊不屬於這個所以你們那時候意見說跟你們無關所以你們沒有不是 我們有一起共同開會有參與可能後續的一些中介投入的處理我們會有協力的部分怎麼樣協力"},{"start":16974.222,"end":17001.001,"text":"協力就像當初我們處理愛奇藝那種情況一樣就它在台灣廣告那它在電信業者有設CDN這一部分的處理就是那主委跟你請教一下因為內政部他把小紅書關掉是引用了詐欺犯罪防害防治條例第十十二條嘛他是說為了要處理詐欺犯罪緊急案件為了要及時防止民眾去接觸到那些詐欺的網站所以可以把它可以用這一條"},{"start":17002.402,"end":17031.224,"text":"來把它可能關閉吧那它有一個前提學者說有前提是第一個它必須要緊急狀態第二個它是要詐欺網站但是小紅書我怎麼看它都不是詐欺網站它是一個平台有的人或許可能會在小紅書上面被騙但是也有很多人是在小紅書上面看到了原來有人是這樣詐騙他得到很多防制詐騙的資訊甚至於他發現到自己在被詐騙當中所以它平台是中立的只是有人利用這個平台在做壞事"},{"start":17031.844,"end":17050.257,"text":"這就好比說有人在馬路上面可能騙人在馬路上騙人結果我們現在政府的做法是我把馬路整個封了一年不讓人家走這已經完全高度的侵害到人民的自由了使用資訊的自由各位報告所以這個在事法性上我覺得有很大的一個問號"},{"start":17051.597,"end":17073.5,"text":"各位報告同樣的新聞它投射在不同部會主管的法規命令裡頭那像這個涉炸部分我們當然是尊重內政部他們的一些看法沒有 我知道你今天不會講什麼啦我只是覺得作為一個網際網路的主管機關你要保障那個網路的多元啦有的時候如果說其他機關它"},{"start":17074.201,"end":17091.019,"text":"他用什麼理由當然我是不太相信是詐騙啦因為有的平台詐騙裡面更多啦我是不太相信啦但是站在網路多元這個角度其實要幫忙講話啦但其他的平台他是有法律代表要聯絡去處理X就沒有啊X有嗎"},{"start":17092.601,"end":17106.373,"text":"但是他相對他目前的情況跟瑞克斯詐欺的一大堆好不好你們是看人的啦然後剛剛講到中天因為我看到前一個委員在講說中天是因為投訴太多變成是一個關台理由"},{"start":17107.054,"end":17129.181,"text":"那所以現在我們只要討厭一家電視台發動所有的人去投訴他就可以讓他被關台喔原來NCC關台是這麼的粗糙喔不是 這個只是這是太誇張了剛剛講到說內控不行上一次在那個教育文化委員會祖密你來嘛我舉了一大堆有一個綠媒在罷免期間一大堆假消息祖密你還記得吧"},{"start":17129.941,"end":17154.791,"text":"那這種沒有 完全沒有內控的綠媒怎麼沒看到你們要去關台沒有 就程序都會經過我們所以你們都看人的嘛上紀念會 上委員會再來喔 再來剛剛那個委員民進黨委員提到的說那個農民口誤啦兩千萬口誤成噸啦其實兩千萬斤啦主持人馬上就糾正了你可以問謝榮介委員啦現場就糾正哇賽 人家口誤就要被罰耶"},{"start":17155.791,"end":17172.614,"text":"口誤旁邊的委員主持人馬上糾正結果你們也要去開罰他不舉這個例子我還沒想到舉了這個例子就讓你感覺先射箭再劃靶因為要關中天所以一堆人跑去檢舉他檢舉他成為關台理由"},{"start":17173.095,"end":17201.889,"text":"因為要關中天所以只是農民口誤主持人跟謝榮介馬上糾正然後也要被裁罰然後內控司令我看到一堆大棉旗店你去看啊一堆的那種綠媒啊造謠造到那個超級誇張的啊我去教育文化委員會去考察還可以造謠說什麼這個一大堆我們明明有通知地方官員他還說地方官員沒來那種我都不想再講了啦然後你們可以都沒看到都沒看到"},{"start":17202.469,"end":17224.023,"text":"只是嚴厲只有中天因為他批評政府最用力這一種東西我跟你講這就是為什麼大家衛廣法今天會修正案正常來講如果我們國家尊重新聞自由大家衛廣法這個文化民主文化願意尊重的話法律都是在在後面大家只要尊重就好現在是沒有想到政府會這樣搞"},{"start":17225.124,"end":17233.392,"text":"那我現在我提的案子我也沒有看到你們在你們的那個裡面有回應啊我的案子就是說現在電視像我家電視"},{"start":17235.818,"end":17262.14,"text":"往右邊切就是網路電視往左邊切是有線電視對我來講網路電視跟衛星電視是一樣的東西啊都是透過電視看啊那網路上我看網路電視我看賴清德假設我看賴清德總統的YouTube好了他都在圈圈他自己在罵國民黨舉例啦就譬如說講他政績什麼之類的也可以啊那我看到轉過來看到那個電視也可以啊而且"},{"start":17263.493,"end":17282.602,"text":"YouTube什麼不用換照只有電視也要換照這已經很過時了以前為什麼要換照是因為以前頻道稀有所以必須要有一個退場機制你做不好換人來做現在是大家都有機會可以做那就是市場來決定嘛你東西真的很爛就沒人看了嘛你如果違法有相關的法律來規範嘛"},{"start":17284.303,"end":17304.897,"text":"所以你現在在數位匯流時代保留一個關台的手段其實第一個沒有必要第二個你就是侵害到新聞自由啦這個不同平台它目前的價值其實是不是達到可以一視同仁來看待其實這個都是在持續難問的過程你覺得賴總統的頻道沒有電視台有價值是不是"},{"start":17307.899,"end":17332.991,"text":"不是 我講平台不是啦 這個有沒有價值是有沒有價值是閱聽人來決定不是NCC來決定數位匯流時代有沒有價值有越點大家做眼球爭奪戰不是你來定義誰有價值 誰沒有價值是由閱聽人來決定基本上你越鬆現在的趨勢就是越鬆綁越好更何況我們的NCC還曾經做過新聞自由的快指手所以我覺得衛王法通過是很有必要的謝謝謝謝偉"},{"start":17336.881,"end":17339.066,"text":"好 謝謝 感謝院長委員 來請代理主委請回"},{"start":17340.407,"end":17367.555,"text":"好 接下來再請張家俊委員張家俊委員 張家俊委員不在登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員楊瓊英所提書面諮詢列入記錄並且刊登公報三 委員於執行中要求提供相關書面資料或是未及答覆部分請國家通訊傳播委員會及相關機關競訴以書面答覆"},{"start":17369.211,"end":17375.234,"text":"針對本日會議做以下決議討論事項個案均另定期繼續審查本次會議結束現在散會 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166246","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166246","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3dbe3fed079b56d96b5dd3a7969bdec96e205c0f991a2210e440e68855abdbf165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:10:14 - 13:20:16","影片長度":"00:10:02","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員羅智強等55人、二、台灣民眾黨黨團及三、委員翁曉玲等24人分別擬具「衛星廣播電視法部分條文修正草案」案、四、委員陳雪生等23人及五、委員傅崐萁等24人分別擬具「衛星廣播電視法第五條條文修正草案」案、六、委員葉元之等22人擬具「衛星廣播電視法第十一條條文修正草案」案、七、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「衛星廣播電視法刪除第五十條條文草案」案、八、委員許智傑等27人及九、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「衛星廣播電視法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】\n【12月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-08","start_time":"2025-12-08T13:10:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-08T13:20:16+08:00","duration":602,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-4-23-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8109687500000002,"end":6.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.10096875,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.214718750000003,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.610343750000002,"end":22.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.47096875,"end":20.297843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.44534375,"end":23.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.01471875,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.14971875,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.17034375,"end":28.262843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.54971875,"end":29.629718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.11909375,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.945968750000002,"end":31.671593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.85721875,"end":36.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.143468750000004,"end":37.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.85221875,"end":40.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.61534375,"end":40.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.63221875,"end":40.665968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.665968750000005,"end":40.986593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.85159375,"end":43.737218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.737218750000004,"end":46.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.024093750000006,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.09159375,"end":44.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.251593750000005,"end":50.453468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.470343750000005,"end":50.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.52096875,"end":51.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.010343750000004,"end":62.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.721593750000004,"end":71.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.69971875,"end":67.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.19284375000001,"end":79.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.98159375,"end":73.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.28471875000001,"end":81.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.79034375,"end":104.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.65596875,"end":119.87721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.21471875,"end":123.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.79221875,"end":139.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.95846875,"end":144.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.40909375,"end":146.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.24846875,"end":148.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.18909375,"end":165.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.55784375000002,"end":165.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.67596875,"end":166.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.70971875,"end":175.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.29596875000001,"end":168.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.67909375000002,"end":181.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.56034375000002,"end":177.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.49221875,"end":184.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.39034375,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.25784375,"end":195.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.27471875,"end":195.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.51096875000002,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.54471875000002,"end":195.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.18909375,"end":206.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.75409375,"end":214.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.01096875000002,"end":209.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.37346875,"end":211.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.10721875000002,"end":228.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.90034375000002,"end":215.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.48096875000002,"end":226.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.16409375,"end":231.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.50534375,"end":238.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.14221875,"end":233.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.30596875,"end":239.40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麻煩請代理主委 謝謝陳代理主委請葉委員午安代理主委 先跟你確定一下像您的第一任的NCC主委的委員任期是到什麼時候第一任的就是這一任95年的第一任是到97年你自己啦我的任期到明年7月底"},{"start":26.195,"end":49.367,"text":"到明年七月底所以大概剩七個多月那這個我不知道有沒有開始在徵詢你留任的意願有沒有目前沒有 還沒有現在NCC還缺四個委員那除了你之外另外兩個委員任期到什麼時候都一樣 這一批都是到七月底那你有感覺到行政院很重視NCC這個單位嗎"},{"start":51.468,"end":71.001,"text":"現在有四個委員到現在雖然之前有提但是都之前提來也不溝通然後審完之後也沒有後續好像也不認為這個NCC有運作沒運作有什麼差別你們現在你們的任期到明年7月又要結束了到時候會不會NCC都沒有委員直接組密代理組委"},{"start":71.641,"end":98.28,"text":"沒有 照我們組織法規定委員會前幾個月要提名在組織法是規定我跟你講組織法有規定但是現在行政院沒有在理組織法的像那個公共電視按照公事法的規定應該是在去年11月就要提董事名單過來結果董事都已經延任了好幾個月了都沒看到名單所以現在行政院沒有在按照法律在辦事的所以不用扯那個組織法出來"},{"start":99.982,"end":119.204,"text":"那我想跟請教一下最近大家在關心小紅書被禁這件事情那因為行政院他用的是打詐當理由但NCC照道理來講打詐跟NCC很有關係而且小紅書我怎麼看都應該算是NCC的業務因為NCC的你們的組織法裡面就是規定"},{"start":120.345,"end":146.753,"text":"你是網際網路傳播政策制定法令訂定的相關單位嗎所以有關於網際網路的傳播的政策跟網際網路有關的應該都是NCC要扮演很關鍵角色而且是可以影響的那我想問一下小紅書這樣子被封一年站在網際網路主管機關的NCC的看法是什麼"},{"start":147.318,"end":165.009,"text":"好是謝謝委員跟委員報告我們的組織法規定NCC是網際網路傳播政策的訂定等等那個就是源頭端某種程度那以我某種程度就是說屬於源頭端的政策的訂定但是還要搭配一個"},{"start":165.809,"end":194.59,"text":"還要搭配好 那沒關係因為時間關係我想請教一下他們現在在訂這個政策之前有選過你們嗎有去開會嗎有去開會那你們的意見是什麼小公司這一塊你們的意見是什麼它是APP因為這不是NCC主政所以沒有 這網際它是屬於網際網路的一個很重要的平台對現在有300萬的台灣300萬的用戶但是所以它是很廣大的但是因為我覺得這很奇怪是NCC常常都沒有數位匯流的概念"},{"start":195.59,"end":206.338,"text":"以前網路歸網路電視歸電視然後大家金稅不犯河水但是在數位匯流之後其實很多東西都變同一件事情所以你們針對這個網際網路尤其是小紅書這麼大的平台你認為該進就可以直接進嗎"},{"start":214.744,"end":238.86,"text":"網際網路平台太陽很多種屬於OTTV視訊部分是NCC管其他屬於那個商業經濟或廣告的是數位部在主管那請教一下小紅書是屬於那一塊不屬於這個所以你們那時候意見說跟你們無關所以你們沒有不是 我們有一起共同開會有參與可能後續的一些中介投入的處理我們會有協力的部分怎麼樣協力"},{"start":240.229,"end":267.011,"text":"協力就像當初我們處理愛奇藝那種情況一樣就他在台灣廣告那他在電信業者有設CDN這一部分的處理就是那主委跟請教一下因為內政部他把小紅書關掉是引用了詐欺犯罪防害防治條例第十二條嘛他是說為了要處理詐欺犯罪緊急案件為了要及時防治民眾去接觸到那些詐欺的網站所以可以把它可以用這一條"},{"start":268.408,"end":297.231,"text":"來把它可能關閉吧那它有一個前提學者說有前提是第一個它必須要緊急狀態第二個它是要詐欺網站但是小紅書我怎麼看它都不是詐欺網站它是一個平台有的人或許可能會在小紅書上面被騙但是也有很多人是在小紅書上面看到了原來有人是這樣詐騙他得到很多防制詐騙的資訊甚至於他發現自己在被詐騙當中所以它平台是中立的只是有人利用這個平台在做壞事"},{"start":297.851,"end":316.262,"text":"這就好比說有人在馬路上面可能騙人在馬路上騙人結果我們現在政府的做法是我把馬路整個封了一年不讓人家走這已經完全高度的侵害到人民的自由了使用資訊的自由所以這個在事法性上我覺得有很大的一個問號"},{"start":317.603,"end":338.848,"text":"各位報告同樣的新聞它投射在不同部會主管的法規命令裡頭那像這個涉炸部分我們當然是尊重內政部他們的一些看法沒有 我知道你今天不會講什麼啦我只是覺得作為一個網際網路的主管機關你要保障那個網路的多元啦有的時候如果說其他機關它"},{"start":340.208,"end":357.018,"text":"他用什麼理由當然我是不太相信是詐騙啦因為有的平台詐騙裡面更多啦我是不太相信啦但是站在網路多元這個角度其實要幫忙講話啦但其他的平台他是有法律代表要聯絡什麼處理X就沒有啊X有嗎"},{"start":358.619,"end":372.4,"text":"那但是他相對他目前情況跟X炸雞的一大堆好不好你們是看人的啦然後剛剛講到中天因為我看到前一個委員在講說中天是因為投訴太多變成是一個關台理由"},{"start":373.061,"end":395.248,"text":"那所以現在我們只要討厭一家電視台發動所有的人去投訴他就可以讓他被關台喔哇賽原來NCC關台是這麼的粗糙喔不是 這個只是這是太誇張了剛剛講到說內控不行上一次在那個教育文化委員會祖密來嘛我舉了一大堆有一個綠媒在罷免期間一大堆假消息祖密你還記得吧"},{"start":395.968,"end":420.695,"text":"那這種沒有 完全沒有內控的綠媒怎麼沒看到你們要去關台沒有 這程序都會經過我們所以你們都看人的嘛然後再者喔再來剛剛那個委員 民進黨委員提到的說那個農民口誤啦兩千萬口誤成噸啦其實兩千萬斤啦主持人馬上就糾正了你可以問謝榮介委員啦現場就糾正哇賽 人家口誤就要被罰耶"},{"start":421.815,"end":438.602,"text":"口誤旁邊的委員主持人馬上糾正結果你們也要去開罰他不舉這個例子我還沒想到舉了這個例子就讓你感覺先射箭再劃靶嘛因為要關中天所以一堆人跑去檢舉他檢舉他成為關台理由"},{"start":439.102,"end":467.916,"text":"因為要關中天所以只是農民口誤主持人跟謝榮介馬上糾正然後也要被裁罰然後內控司令我看到一堆罷免期間你去看啊一堆的那種綠媒啊造謠造到那個超級誇張的啊我去教育文化委員會去考察還可以造謠說什麼這個一大堆我們明明有通知地方官員他還說地方官員沒來這種我都不想再講了啦然後你們可以都沒看到都沒看到"},{"start":468.476,"end":490.211,"text":"只是嚴厲只有中天因為他批評政府最用力這一種東西我跟你講啦這就是為什麼大家衛廣法今天會修正案嘛正常來講如果我們國家尊重新聞自由大家衛廣法這個文化民主文化願意尊重的話法律都是在在後面啦大家只要尊重就好現在是沒有想到政府會這樣搞啦"},{"start":491.131,"end":499.395,"text":"那我現在我提的案子我也沒有看到你們在你們的那個裡面有回應啊我的案子就是說現在電視像我家電視"},{"start":501.825,"end":528.021,"text":"往右邊切就是網路電視往左邊切是有線電視對我來講網路電視跟衛星電視是一樣的東西啊都是透過電視看啊那網路上我看網路電視我看賴清德假設我看賴清德總統的youtube好了他都在圈圈他自己在罵國民黨舉例啦就譬如說講他政績什麼之類的也可以啊那我看到轉過來看到那個電視也可以啊"},{"start":529.5,"end":548.607,"text":"YouTube什麼不用換照只有電視也要換照這已經很過時了以前為什麼要換照是因為以前頻道稀有所以必須要有一個退場機制你做不好換人來做現在是大家都有機會可以做那就是市場來決定嘛你東西真的很爛就沒人看了嘛你如果違法有相關的法律來規範嘛"},{"start":550.327,"end":570.921,"text":"所以你指你現在在數位匯流時代保留一個關台的手段其實第一個沒有必要第二個你就是侵害到新聞自由啦因為我今天這個不同平台它目前的價值其實是不是達到可以一視同仁來看待其實這個都是在持續改變的過程你覺得賴總統的頻道沒有電視台有價值是不是"},{"start":573.923,"end":598.999,"text":"不是 我講平台市場不是啦 這個有沒有價值是有沒有價值是閱聽人來決定不是NCC來決定數位匯流時代有沒有價值有越點大家做眼球爭奪戰不是你來定義誰有價值誰沒有價值是由閱聽人來決定基本上你越鬆現在的趨勢就是越鬆綁越好更何況我們的NCC還曾經做過新聞自由的快指手所以我覺得衛王法通過是很有必要的謝謝謝謝偉"}]}},{"id":"166245","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166245","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3bfb1815c8c59bb2ab5dd3a7969bdec96e205c0f991a2210e057babbb10d0fc445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"13:00:32 - 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謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳代理主委陳代理主委請"},{"start":12.474,"end":36.411,"text":"主委午安我們看到這個無國界記者組織每年都會為世界各國的評比這個世界自由新聞自由那這個也是最具公信力也是最客觀的一個調查那我們看到2025年最新的世界新聞自由指數的評比那台灣今年上升了三名全球排名第24繼續產業亞洲第一"},{"start":38.712,"end":58.565,"text":"那我們反觀這個中國排名今年是再降6名是倒數第178名排名178是全球倒數第三是被評比為非常嚴峻而且被形容為世界最大記者監獄的一個國家那我們看到這個圖表我們"},{"start":60.686,"end":81.913,"text":"台灣可以說僅次於北歐然後跟加拿大還有美國跟澳洲都是並列的就是在屬於狀況上可的一個新聞自由的一個國度所以我們應該要非常珍惜我們台灣目前的這樣子的一個成果在這個民主自由的國家就是言論自由"},{"start":82.493,"end":110.468,"text":"新聞自由是可以受到保障的那這個新聞媒體可以說是第四權那他們也是負有這個就是監督的一個責任然後透過就是公正的一個報導讓社會大眾可以知道這個真實的事實的一個真相所以據這樣子的一個就是新聞報導的一個責任就是新聞媒體他們應該要本與良知做"},{"start":110.988,"end":139.893,"text":"事實客觀的一個報導這樣子才能夠對得起他們的良心可是我們覺得我們看到就是說有一些新聞媒體卻是故意惡意的做了一些不實的一個報導引起了一些社會的一個動盪不安就是我們NCC是新聞媒體的一個主管機關所以我們對所有的新聞媒體都有就是一致的一個就是審查跟要求是不是"},{"start":140.345,"end":166.063,"text":"是那聽委員所提到的這個我們國內的新聞自由度在全世界的排名是相當的名列前沿那當然是代表國內的電視媒體特別是新聞台部分其實是意見多元就是自由奔放但是自由奔放之餘依據這個這個大法官4至364號解釋其實還是一定的規範就是我們今天報告所提到的制度性保障給你這個制度"},{"start":166.383,"end":189.888,"text":"但是你相對應的都是政府機關還是要給你一個適度的一些管制措施所以這邊如果有違反這個規管法27條的40條部分我們都會來做一個依法來處理對就是說要有這些媒體都是要有遵守這樣一定的一個規範就是不能例外那如果違規的話當然我們就是有一定的一個處罰處分是不是"},{"start":192.324,"end":208.309,"text":"是 那目前就是深色平線換照那是一個體系的那換照的目的就在就像林子儀大法官所講的這是一個來獲取這個新聞自由新聞專業的一個確保的對應的配套措施"},{"start":209.013,"end":234.484,"text":"是那我們今天委員會就是針對這個衛星廣播電視法這個修正草案進行這個詢答那我們看到有委員提案就是針對第17條有增訂的這個條文就是說執照遭註銷之衛星廣播電視事業及境外衛星廣播電視事業之分公司或代理商若提起行政救濟於訴願期間或行政訴訟確定"},{"start":236.145,"end":257.618,"text":"判決前執照繼續有效本條修正通過後這個效率溯及既往適用徵送中的案件那這一個徵訂的條文裡面很明顯的他有個兩個重點就是招註銷的這個就是這個對象處分對象然後還能夠溯及既往那我想請教我們什麼狀況會註銷這個衛星廣播電視他們的這個許可"},{"start":263.482,"end":282.55,"text":"是的當然再問換照辦法微工法18條有規定說我們要審查要看的重點項目如果他這些項目如果相對的這個表現如果不好的話在諮詢會議都會提出建議在文文會議也會做個審理那以這個個案上其實在文文上文會議之前都已經舉"},{"start":285.311,"end":313.07,"text":"舉辦過聽證會那相關的程序都已經是透明公開那這種情況就是要確保新聞專業自由的能夠持續的維持那如果像這個這種條款通過的話其實它都是行政訴訟法116條第一項的一些例外情況那這個例外情況其實剛剛司法院的前輩法官有提到這種情況其實是相對跟一般通念上是不同的那也是很少見的"},{"start":313.61,"end":329.723,"text":"那朔即既往那這種情況兩個加在一起其實某種程度就是比較相應更為罕見那是不是比較傾向於說是讓人家會連結成說這是個案式立法這個也是需要加以思考的地方"},{"start":330.481,"end":355.753,"text":"是就是說我們如果沒有違規就不可能被註銷所以被註銷就是有違反我們的規定的所以我覺得說這個條文特別針對說遭註銷的這樣子的一個被處分對象來替他解套我覺得這樣子的一個條文真的是非常的不適當我覺得身為一個立法委員應該要也要有這個法律的一個素養然後提出這樣的法案我覺得真的是一笑大方"},{"start":356.673,"end":382.068,"text":"那再請教主委就是目前遭註銷然後在進行行政訴訟當中的有幾家媒體目前所知就是那一家就是中天新聞所以這個條文的修訂就是非常的針對性就是要特別為中天尋求解套要讓他復活是不是就這條件來組合下去確實答案就是委員所講的"},{"start":382.819,"end":396.808,"text":"是那我們是不是可以請陳太祖在針對這個中天新聞他在申請換照時候在我們審議駁回那當時他被駁回的原因大概是什麼可不可以說明一下四個原因第一個是"},{"start":398.869,"end":418.688,"text":"他的違規遭民眾投訴量非常的大第二個是107年平建後他的內控跟自律機制失靈第三個是他的新聞直播遭受不斷干擾這個在聽證會都有相關的證據出示在法院那邊都有舉出來"},{"start":421.631,"end":429.598,"text":"第四個就是該台所提的補充意見跟承諾比較能夠不容易看到它未來有沒有改善的可能"},{"start":430.461,"end":452.727,"text":"所以我們看到他的違規的統計表真的是非常多包括違反公序良俗還有包括這個違反兒少法還有這個性侵害防治犯罪防治法等等這些我想這些都是我們沒有辦法去允許的所以我相信這個就是社會大眾也沒有辦法接受他們這樣子的一個違規那我們也看到"},{"start":453.487,"end":475.236,"text":"很具體的例子在2019年的時候他們有一則這個新聞報導說這個文旦丟在水庫超過200萬斤這樣子的一個不實報導引起的後續的一個影響是造成這個農民的一個很大的損失那後來這個就是"},{"start":477.057,"end":503.892,"text":"就是說講出這樣子一個訊息的一個誠信農民的妻子她後來說她的老公是口誤而已所以我覺得說在造成這樣子的一個假訊息之後然後後續才簡單的說用口誤這樣子來帶過我覺得這樣子真的是沒有辦法接受的一個狀況因為造成農民農產品的交易順序的一個損失我想這個是非常嚴重的一個"},{"start":504.372,"end":518.923,"text":"然後對整個社會的一個安定也是造成很大的一個衝擊我想這個都是社會大眾沒有辦法接受的所以我覺得說新聞媒體他們應該自己要有自律那沒有辦法自律他們應該就是說在整個"},{"start":519.903,"end":544.035,"text":"我們監督單位我們NCC的這樣子的一個規範之下他們也必須要遵守才對所以今天就是國民黨的委員特別為他們提出了這樣子的一個解套的一個條文我想社會自有公平雖然後來我相信在之後的一個不管是表決或者是在院會的表決上我們因為在我們執政黨的委員"},{"start":544.815,"end":561.328,"text":"就是委員數比較少我想他們還是會強行過關所以對這樣子的後果我想我們雖然不樂意見那在他們強行通過之後我想這個也是社會大眾沒有辦法接受的我想這個之後當然就是留待大家的一個公平謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166244","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166244","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b35e7fd03fd5f1c03eb5dd3a7969bdec96e205c0f991a2210e057babbb10d0fc445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:51:24 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包含換照朝準的原則推進 第二個將原本裁量的審查標準直接寫死 第三個撤照後仍然可以繼續營運直到所有的救濟結束 第四個部分條文還帶有溯及既往的一個效果"},{"start":72.096,"end":92.935,"text":"我想這些的條文的修正 真的讓外界高度的質疑 真的是在幫業者 特定的業者來做解套那所以我想 諸位本身是公務體系出身我們要求公務體系就是要依法行政那甚至我們在這個制度面上 也應該要有這樣的一個堅持跟諸位認同這個說法嗎"},{"start":94.477,"end":111.276,"text":"認同那其實一般的一般的通念常理都認為說個案式立法是比較不適合那他的對公共利益上他是侷限於特定的個案特定的一個小小的集合群體的話其實是一般是認為是不應該做個案式的立法"},{"start":112.358,"end":135.599,"text":"所以我想 主委 這個修法如果讓監理機關的財量空間從此被壓縮到最低那我們的審查是不是會失去公信力那甚至我們的監理應該保有一個基本的一個審查的一個界線不要這個修法讓外界產生這個立法干預個案的一個疑慮 主委到目前為止前面十幾個委員 您自己有什麼看法"},{"start":136.779,"end":159.895,"text":"我們看法大概跟我們報告上一樣就是三權分立那如果立法權這邊會侵蝕這個行政機關的一些權限處理的話那也順便把行政訴訟法116條這個司法權這邊也給去侵蝕的話我們是覺得這邊的分際要如何拿捏其實應該可以好好的討論"},{"start":160.715,"end":185.419,"text":"那畢竟這個這個16條 行政訴訟法16條第一項的這些例外情況是相當相當相當的少幾乎是沒有所以我想我們行政機關跟立法機關我們應該互相尊重那當然我們立法院必須要監督行政院這是我們的職責但是主委也應該要堅守我們的原則那另外我想我還是要特別再提到我們屏東的一個高抗災基地台的一個部分"},{"start":186.399,"end":213.652,"text":"這個從去年我上任之後我一直在追這個案子那尤其屏東縣過去因為這個我們極端氣候的影響颱風這個好雨會造成我們一個通訊的一個問題那尤其我們很多的一些偏鄉包含原鄉的部分我們很需要這個很有力的一個很強大的一個通訊的一個系統來做一個救災的一個處理所以那這部分我記得我上次也特別提過那目前就屏東的這個基地台部件的進度來講"},{"start":214.412,"end":243.651,"text":"目前我們有沒有什麼最新的一個進度有 但我們在2014年下半年其實在今年年底應該會再完成至少三個這個高抗災基地台在林邊跟在牡丹那邊那過去幾年我們都有持續在委員的指導之下這個高抗災基地台都有持續在屏東這邊都有持續增加在全國各地的偏鄉或醫治災地區我們都有持續來跟督導業者來做一些相應的一些部署部件"},{"start":245.211,"end":270.079,"text":"主委當然我知道這個要建置高抗災基地台也有一些相關的一些要件包含我們這個整個光纖微波衛星還有要有72小時的備援的一個電力甚至要耐15級以上的一個強風那最重要我們覺得可以結合一些我們公有的一些建築設施能夠增設這個基地台我想針對這部分不是只有屏東應該是我們全台很多的"},{"start":270.499,"end":283.616,"text":"一些地方應該都要做這樣全面性的一個來建置檢討 所以這部分應該能不能加快進度有 我們像公有建物提供的話我們推動以來大概全國有819個點這個公交機關來提供當然這個最積極最協調"},{"start":288.162,"end":317.301,"text":"配合度最高是交通部所屬的郵局啊等等因為以前是在電腫時期在推電腫當年是在交通部下面所以交通部所屬機關配合度最高那今年在丹納斯之後那相關經濟部體系的或台電的相關變電所需我們都有在處理那目前大概應該會有至少兩個就是嘉義嘉義的宗家跟雲林的水林那邊都有應該是應該已經是完工了"},{"start":318.161,"end":345.695,"text":"那蓄電所部分屏東這邊委員所在地的訪寮那邊也有兩個站點我們會來規劃來建置處理主委我想這個屏東要建置的地方真的是很多啦那我們希望我們一個月之內是不是NCC把我們屏東縣可以建置的一些地點包含可行性的評估的部分能不能把這個說明資料給本席這邊 是沒問題我們會儘快準備"},{"start":346.275,"end":366.906,"text":"我想這個一定要趕快超前部署尤其我們面臨這個極端氣候的一個挑戰屏東不能成為這個通訊的一個邊陲地帶那我們應該加快建置這樣屏東的一個整個電信的一個電網的一個韌性通信的一個韌性主委一起來努力好我們會一起努力持續跟找電信業者來一起來投入這方面"},{"start":367.568,"end":394.543,"text":"好那最後我想這個剛剛也有很多委員提到我們現在委員人數不足沒得開會那所以沒得開會的狀況之下會造成包含衛星廣播電視的執照換照這個頻道的上下架董監事的變更甚至重要的法規的一個修訂還有超過430項的一個待決的一個案件都因為委員無法委員會無法召開而停擺那主委你有自己有什麼對策嗎"},{"start":395.944,"end":421.573,"text":"我們現在就是我們在我們對策下修改的這個內部授權的規定還有分辨負責等等這些都是處理完那剛剛委員講400多件是說我們在我們能夠處理範圍內之外的都沒辦法處理目前就是總文之一會開完到現在有400多件保留那剛剛委員特別提到說很重大跟業者有關的說他換照案到今年年底會有104件那如果到明年"},{"start":423.096,"end":428.413,"text":"明年六月底的话会有156件这个我们都是希望说这方面能够尽快来解决"},{"start":429.437,"end":455.21,"text":"主委 這個知識體大尤其我想這個我們國內很多重要的電視台跟廣播的一個系統如果因為委員會沒辦法開議開會造成這樣子無法換照面臨違規營運的一個風險我想這個會影響影響到整個產業的一個秩序還有民眾收視的一個權益問題那尤其更重要就是對於我們國家這個媒體治理的一個重大的議案都因為這樣的"},{"start":456.331,"end":471.415,"text":"我們的一個委員會沒辦法組成 受到很大的一個衝擊我想這個不是政治的一個惡鬥 應該要關心到我們整個國家的一個發展所以未來我想這個剛剛有提到 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請各位先進有請我們的陳代理主委陳代理主委請"},{"start":20.788,"end":49.424,"text":"廖委員午安你午安喔我就請教很簡單的問題很重要很簡單的問題今天我們主席啊拍這個題目非常好就是好幾個委員有提的這個這個廣電法衛星廣電法的修正案衛星廣電法的修正案那有人講說這些案子如果通過中天是不是可以復台是不是"},{"start":51.097,"end":75.032,"text":"就目前的條文的話目前係數對關係條件符合的目前大概就是委員所提的就是如果我們今天的條文這個通過的話中間可以復台對不對這是一個另外一個是如果法院判決你們一路輸到底他也可以復台啊"},{"start":77.128,"end":92.51,"text":"這個就地程序其實相關的電視台個案上的電視台他已經做過了在行政訴訟法116條第二項第三項都有規定那案官的那個案的那電視台他已經採取這個行動了只是法院都給他比較駁回的一些處理"},{"start":93.772,"end":122.313,"text":"法院最好還沒有final啦我們看一下中天當初被關新聞台被關講四大原因什麼申訴太多啦內控的問題啦新聞自播受不當的干擾啦中天所提的意見不能夠具體的改善等等四大 你們發的新聞稿 四大理由其實這四大理由我敢說可以apply到現在綠美的每一家電視台他們沒有干預嗎"},{"start":123.928,"end":148.173,"text":"我也不相信 顏色那麼的清楚 立場那麼的鮮明 怎麼沒有干預所以如果用這個角度來看 當時候做出中間新聞官台到底是一個政治判決 政治決定就是NCC變成扼殺新聞自由 言論自由的筷子手"},{"start":149.073,"end":165.969,"text":"NCC自甘墮落變成東廠變這個樣子 你聽我講 先不要急因為大法官解釋689號也講得很清楚啊 新聞自由啊所以我們就委員提出來"},{"start":167.23,"end":173.796,"text":"要換照除非有什麼條件 否則應該准以換照為原則這個立場你接受嗎 准以換照為原則 你接受嗎為了保障新聞自由我們建議說這要整體配套來看 那因為換照本身是會讓是要保證是要確保這個新聞頻道節目品質本於專業來"},{"start":194.293,"end":212.875,"text":"來播送那如果說換到這邊鬆了這是結構性管制這邊鬆的話那其實結構管制那一邊其實要對應要相應的一些相應調整處理所以你還是要繼續嚴格喔這個你沒有這麼大的權力喔如果今天修法通過的話你沒這麼大權力喔你現在想要握住那個權力喔"},{"start":216.517,"end":241.226,"text":"這個本來為了維護身份自由就是應該准你換照除非他犯了很大的錯誤我們委員有提案啊除非這個九次以上除非罰款累計罰款五百萬以上但是那個罰款都是要確定等於是確定之後等於法院確定之後這裡面大家可以告來告去的那我就請教你啊"},{"start":241.866,"end":259.675,"text":"你們到現在為止啊 庭審啊庭審有的一次官司可能三次庭審 四次庭審 五次庭審你們26拜欸 你們一次拜啊各位報告 那是重複計算不同審級的一審二審那其實如果以中判來看的話"},{"start":261.141,"end":286.111,"text":"案關電視台26件採取案目前是兩件海調輸送當中24件已經確定24件裡頭有7件NCC是敗訴另外17件裡頭是已經確定了11件NCC勝訴6件是那家電視台沒有提送其實論比例的話我們NCC目前敗訴的只有7件我請問你NCC你明年度編了多少預算要打罐師600多萬"},{"start":288.759,"end":298.406,"text":"各位報告600多是包括其他電信領域的還有法律事務費包括要請專家協職的因為它是採編的太多還要給你錢來當筷子手各位報告我們也有還包括電信的來我現在問你就是說你剛剛講的是不是我要確定一下"},{"start":311.468,"end":319.176,"text":"或者修法通過或者行政院最後不是律師法院法院最後判定讓中天可以復台這兩條路對吧"},{"start":323.286,"end":344.458,"text":"那如果是這樣譬如說我們修法通過了請問可以直接復台嗎還是要經過你們委員會要經過委員會而且復台如果說黨團的版本的話要回到原來的平位這邊是有極大的困難度因為那是跟有線電視做商業協商那是商業機制是第三方人的利益"},{"start":344.898,"end":363.596,"text":"這邊NCC不是一個行政機關說我要永電電視請你把原來的房客找回來把現在的房客請走這個不是這麼容易處理的所以也就是說用百萬文講中天新聞如果即便復台他不可能再52台這樣對吧難度很大"},{"start":366.724,"end":380.92,"text":"你會講不可能嗎對 幾乎不可能幾乎不可能 換一個主委可能就可能了不是 因為他現在52台的你不可能 換別人就可能了因為52台的涵蓋率只有75% 還有25%52台現在收視率這麼低啊你有沒有看 華氏經營不好啊"},{"start":386.246,"end":402.649,"text":"他是公廣集團會以公廣集團的使命為主所以他相關的製作上的取向他風格就很清楚嘛這個把中天新聞趕走由民進黨政府的手伸進來公廣集團伸進來就變這個樣子啊所以我要奉勸這個代理主委你這個"},{"start":410.811,"end":426.353,"text":"我還是希望你能夠維持新聞自由能夠採取跟歐美先進國家一樣對於新聞台要低密度管理低密度管理原則要核准NC一直都擁護新聞自由"},{"start":426.613,"end":451.592,"text":"哪裡有陳耀祥你們以前的主委筷子手一個是不是我們來看我們希望這個立法院能夠順利的修法通過讓中天可以復台我覺得中天復台的意義非常大就是代表我們新聞自由被殘害有撥亂反正的那麼一天我覺得這是有一定是意義的謝謝謝謝委員來謝謝賴世鮑委員"}]}},{"id":"166242","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166242","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3c96dea0e24eff1e5b5dd3a7969bdec96955b66d75a5d596898574eeade4413eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:32:37 - 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那有請主委好 來陳代理主委請有委員好"},{"start":20.922,"end":37.74,"text":"好那代理主委好那延續剛才政經財委員所提到的有限電視法第45條其中30%的部分是中央40%的部分是回到地方縣市政府另外30%是給基金使用那在南投縣的話也有產點這個優等獎"},{"start":39.682,"end":54.569,"text":"那我想要救救一下主委那當然在南投縣他都是以這個集集大山的電視轉播站他也來去做這個訊號的發射那來協助南投縣的有線電視相關的一個普及包括在偏鄉的部分那可以解決這個數位落差的問題"},{"start":55.709,"end":81.14,"text":"那另外我想要就教一下主委那另外在中央的30%那對於提升南投偏鄉的部分有做出什麼樣具體的內容嗎可以舉今年為例我們負責30%部分主要是做一些這個依據油管法規定做一些普及有限的普及還有特別是離島的一些不進去地區一些補助那還有一些獎勵這個"},{"start":82.961,"end":97.798,"text":"有限電視業者地方頻道的一些製作那目前這邊都有在持續處理這些大方向的我清楚但是那這30%的話對於今年南投線有特別提升了些哪些或是數位落差的問題解決嗎直接針對南投線在今年講就可以"},{"start":99.585,"end":116.245,"text":"好 那南投縣的部分 那屬於我們NCC的部分 我們有有給當地的業者有做有200多萬的一些 請他們做一些這個相關這個寬民補給 4K計算盒的鋪設這些這些那除了這個之外 還有其他嗎"},{"start":117.443,"end":137.382,"text":"其他的因為我們未來新制度有針對偏向會得額外的去挖出一塊然後跟根據全台灣地區的偏向的比例來做一些分配那未來如果南投線這邊應該是會相對會有比較多的一些資源基金方面的部分有沒有針對南投線做出什麼樣的一個貢獻或是內容"},{"start":138.863,"end":153.682,"text":"當地有限電視業者應該製作好幾部的地方有地方特色的一些一些地方文化的一些影片好那還是把這個部分近三年度有關於相關的這些相關影片的清單也提供給本集辦公室"},{"start":155.062,"end":174.909,"text":"本期還是希望就是說在偏鄉的話通訊跟數位落差相對是較為嚴重那在地方的縣市政府確實也有在這個部分來去照顧弱勢族群但是在中央的部分希望這30%的部分還是花在刀口上也確實協助地方來做改善"},{"start":175.569,"end":197.359,"text":"那除了剛才200多萬來補助地方的有線電視業者那當然地方的有線電視業者確實也是用心在經營啦這個因為也就那麼一家那但是總是希望還在這個解決南投偏鄉的這個部分還能夠更為有效普及因為在各種的一個情況發生的時候那都是一種管道"},{"start":198.536,"end":218.062,"text":"是跟我們報告在通信的部分那因為主改之後電信普及服務目前已經歸出發部管理但是在相關的一些機器台的偏遠地區的一些機器台的建設那當初業者合併案的時候我們都要求在偏鄉要廣為部件那這邊他們都有在處理"},{"start":219.742,"end":236.402,"text":"因應極端氣候的部分那偏鄉地區的高抗災基地台我們這邊都有持續在關注讓偏鄉地區讓抑制災的地區都能夠有相應的一些防一些因應準備這我知道那同樣的本席要就交到主委那在目前在賴清德總統他提到了"},{"start":236.963,"end":265.495,"text":"就是不管是要對美投資10兆或者是在軍購的部分要購買這一兆2500億那這個有沒有排擠到中央政府總預算或者是NCC的相關經費因為基於主席總書要求各機關編列是臨機預算那也會參考前一年的一些決算情形目前大致上對NCC這邊是相對還可以還沒有特別的一些影響好那同樣的這本冊子"},{"start":266.815,"end":295.697,"text":"不知道主委你有沒有看過有 我們家裡都有收到對 那你有沒有NCC有沒有參與這個冊子相關的一個編列或是相關的會議沒有直接參與 但是有有間接協同開會那你把這本冊子打幾分我覺得大家都是敬意求親應該都不會說應該都不會說就滿足了應該會 希望會越來越好那我直接跟這位主委講這本冊子第一頁就列著賴清德賴總統"},{"start":296.798,"end":312.804,"text":"他也明示了2027他也預期了兩岸的話會有戰爭的風險那在NCC對於目前來講有限電視的傳播在地方的普及如何能夠在相關的緊急情況發生的時候有做了各種準備"},{"start":314.563,"end":342.237,"text":"有限電視在緊急情況的角色其實在過往SARS或者COVID-19的時候都有我們會有那頻道徵用在跑馬燈這邊會有處理那特別時期的話其實在某些頻道可以特別去類似的提供使用像公視那我們每年的災防者都有在演練不管是戰爭風險或者是重大的這種天災的時候有辦法確保這個有限電視的傳播大家收訊都還是能夠正常嗎"},{"start":343.087,"end":364.507,"text":"跟委員報告在結構在技術上有限的東西其實它沒有腳不會跑其實相對風險比較高它只要把機房炸了大概相對就它的韌性就沒那麼強當然有限電視也有部分會用一些無線來傳輸來處理比方說它的頭端是接收衛星頻道訊號但是它到家戶那邊其實都是走有限的"},{"start":365.608,"end":373.42,"text":"在這樣子的一本手冊的編列那NCC有開過相關的會有參與過這本手冊編列或是相關的會議嗎"},{"start":374.594,"end":399.285,"text":"相關會議都是跨部會在參與是主委參加嗎是我們相關同仁去參加所以主委你對這個會議討論的內容其實並沒有實際參與我個人是沒有實際參與但是他們參加會議都會回來報告我們大概知道說在重要時刻緊急時刻的一些通訊上無線是比較保有韌性無線包括天上的就是衛星"},{"start":399.865,"end":417.316,"text":"那同樣的就是說這本手冊歸這本手冊那在假如賴清德總統他預言了2027年的時候那在各種一個任性的準備或是緊急狀況的一個準備在目前NCC有沒有參加過任何一場會議除了這個之外"},{"start":418.252,"end":444.252,"text":"相關任性的會議我們都有持續在配合相關單位的召集都有參加那所以說除了NCC到時候跑馬燈的功能之外還有其他的相關的方案嗎主要都是涉及在電信通訊這邊的部分就是緊急情況之後如何這個漫遊如何讓這個最大的訊息能夠通訊的量重要的軍情指揮體系能夠保持暢通"},{"start":446.894,"end":463.306,"text":"總之希望能夠強化所以說這個部分大致上還是希望能夠精進那另外剛才洪孟楷委員他稍微有提到的這個靜電視跟陳水扁合開的節目的部分那這個部分主委有沒有要補充呼籲的"},{"start":465.075,"end":492.388,"text":"就是現行這件事他是不能夠開這個政論節目那如果他有開因為這個是目前是說明年會有這個可能會發生那如果他發生的話我們會就來處理那我們也跟相關業者來提醒說他目前是沒有辦法來開政論節目他當然有來跟我們申請政論節目但是我們現在沒有委員會也沒辦法處理所以他有來申請政論節目嗎"},{"start":493.288,"end":508.35,"text":"有 營運計畫的申請變更說他要開這段節目好 那最後我要補充問一下主委就是目前全台灣的審查制度啊那NCC的相關的諮詢委員會的委員有沒有向社會大界公告過"},{"start":509.481,"end":536.781,"text":"目前是沒有那為什麼不公開因為依據政府諮詢公開法他的諮詢委員會只是提供NCC委員會議審議相關案件的提供參考建議他是政府機關做成一次諮詢的資訊像環評委員就可以公開促參委員也可以公開 書院委員也可以公開大學評鑑委員也可以公開那為什麼就NCC的這個諮詢委員他就沒有辦法公開"},{"start":538.421,"end":554.345,"text":"這個我有研究過這個環評委員會他的決議其實是有一定的拘束力那任何重大建設案環評委員會不同意的他絕對不能overwrite他說我就是要照做不行那我們NCC諮詢節目廣告諮詢或聲色憑鑒換照的諮詢會議的他是純粹跟NCC委員會"},{"start":557.406,"end":585.082,"text":"所以今天來講在這個諮詢委員會的NCC的相關審查中他反而更是要跟社會大界公開更應該讓社會大界能夠了解那其他的部會他有辦法做到這個地步那為什麼NCC他沒有辦法公開這個資訊那其實本席還是建議就是說這個部分的話希望針對這個公開的諮詢委員的部分也一樣給交通委員會一個相關的一個"},{"start":587.163,"end":603.421,"text":"討論的報告啊因為這個部分諮詢委員本來他的獨立性他就應該可受檢驗嘛那在今天在討論這個就是黨軍軍退出媒體的部分那我們連諮詢委員我們都沒有辦法去了解裡面的成員那如何能夠做到利益迴避"},{"start":603.982,"end":627.534,"text":"那我坦白講這種東西也不應該是黑箱也不應該是不可以讓大家所知道應該是要可受社會公平可以公開檢驗所以本席還是會認為在這樣子的一個資訊委員應該要公開那同時不公開的理由我坦白講也是要用書面的部分送交交通委員會讓各委員參考那這個問題可以持續來在委員會做探討"},{"start":628.214,"end":644.857,"text":"因為我坦白講 社會各界應該是希望他的諮詢委員的獨立性是可受公平尤其是我們在討論黨政軍推出媒體這些委員應該要能夠經得起考驗好 我們會把報告準備好給交通委員會好 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請陳志偉來 陳代主委請文豪主委 那是法治社會啦是我剛剛聽你的答詢我要給你高度的肯定你至少沒有像那個違法亂紀的那個周鴻泰行政院長說立法院通過了三讀的條文不執行"},{"start":33.288,"end":61.289,"text":"像中天可能赴台這個題目他等於要過三個我想他還有三關要過啦他有三關要過第一個當然就是今天這個修法對不對如果修法過了這是一個第二個過了以後還要行政院不願意做總統要不要公告第三個真的要做就是回到你剛剛講的要委員會開會嘛對不對NCJ委員會開會嘛要過這三關對不對不過實際上我們是一個法治社會就是叫不來就好了啦"},{"start":62.608,"end":90.821,"text":"法治社會就照法來做啦因為老實講這本來就是個行政救濟的一個管道嘛對不對法院後來怎麼判過了以後立法院就修法就完全照法裡面來走好不好好OK不要又搞出一個到時候那個什麼行政院長又不依法執行這個事情好 今天談衛星廣播電視法修正這個是台灣民眾黨重中之重我早在去年的3月份就代表台灣民眾黨"},{"start":92.332,"end":118.638,"text":"八位委員我們就提出了修正案我們有所謂的改革三件最重要就是要公開透明整個資訊的這個揭露它所謂三支箭有就是包括衛星的電視跟廣播它都是要公開發行的要公開發行公開發行以後就會出現第二支箭了所以它的股權資訊還有它的財務的資訊對外就會揭露為什麼要有這兩個非常重要的因為老實講現在很難過的是"},{"start":120.666,"end":135.11,"text":"地視權 衛星電視跟廣播對國家發展影響是很大的可是現在某些電視台現在都變副業了變副業了他們肯定做了其他很多非常多的這個行業土地開發啦還有去買遊樂園的"},{"start":139.332,"end":166.874,"text":"這是非常嚴重的這很畸形的發展在全世界的全世界民主國家很少這樣子所以我們會明確要求他必須要公開發行接受全民的監督讓他們不要再走後門讓他們善盡第四權的權利不要把第四權幫成復原去謀自己的福利這是前面兩支箭第三個也很重要就是這段時間引起非常多人過病了正媒變成一體了甚至是黨檢媒師變成一體了"},{"start":169.056,"end":191.866,"text":"很多的這個電視台你在看什麼他就是完全依靠政府的採購案政府的補助而且是集中在某些在某幾家說明要明定只要是對政府這個採購還有補助跟廣告這個他收入這個來源要整個全部要揭露讓全民共同來監督提這三個那我現在很具體的來問這個內容這次裡面我們先針對一個房幣的問題"},{"start":198.141,"end":206.152,"text":"這個新聞報導之前有報導過三立去經營入主 去經營了中佳集團"},{"start":208.425,"end":227.642,"text":"結果以前的NCC的主委在這邊打他說依照現行法律沒辦法 沒辦法管因為他監過好幾層從母公司到子公司到孫公司弄到後來你根本就法律上沒辦法管所以這次我們在明文裡面再增加了第12條之一要求"},{"start":229.223,"end":243.788,"text":"經營新聞跟財經頻道或者是自播新聞節目的衛星廣播電視事業你必須依照主管機關就是NCCNCC你指定的方式在每年的6月30號之前將前一年度的"},{"start":244.708,"end":273.196,"text":"相關的這個資訊要放到指管機關指定的網站跟該事業的網站上面特別是要防避我剛提的那個事情三立層層投資去躲避這個監督我們要求徵列裡面的第七款只要是主要廣告收入來源負責人董事跟監察人經理人跟直接或者間接"},{"start":274.673,"end":287.282,"text":"他持有已經發行有表決權股份的總數只要超過十分之一以上股東的這個投資事業的他全部就要公開披露這是一個黃幣喔 解決問題啊這位有贊成整列這個條文嗎"},{"start":290.274,"end":306.559,"text":"這個基本原則我們是理解委員的立場跟委員補充報告委員所舉的那個例子那個個案其實我們已經處理了也罰這個MSO1440萬那剛剛委員提到的公開發行這一部分我們是不要持保留的態度為什麼"},{"start":307.159,"end":336.206,"text":"因為公開發錢你們提案是說是參照郵廣法可是郵廣法的資本規模跟它商業模式它是吐息跟未廣頻道是吐逼這個相對是比較不同的我們會覺得說公開發錢這邊那現在所有的第四台都學三立然後都去宗家或者是第四台第四台做這個投資這是明文規定的可是你開了一個後門你有沒有辦法把它讀起來當然就是用這種法令用這種法令直接修法把它明定"},{"start":337.6,"end":357.743,"text":"你要允許繼續再發生這個事嗎再鼓勵嗎你目前只有小法對不對沒有沒有都一千多萬一千多萬一千多萬對那個電視台賺的讓他電五天這是一個好那另外我看到你的這個書面資料裡面你特別有意思在強調說如果是採購案"},{"start":359.45,"end":381.46,"text":"採購案預算法上面有規定你要清楚看一下我們的條文好不好我們的條文是你要制定一個你指定了一個方式在每年的6月30號之前將前一年度的資訊第一個是要公開揭露在你NCC指定的一個網站另外他們該事業例如說如果是三立或者民視或TBS他自己要公布好不好"},{"start":382.38,"end":411.68,"text":"好 這個也跟委員補充報告採購這個預算法60條之一他是要求做兩件主要資訊公開的事情 第一個假設A機關開一個採購案給某家電視台去得標了 那A機關必須在他的官網裡頭去揭露說我這一塊的資訊揭露 另外這個一樣是預算法60條之一也要求這個主力總署那邊的官網也要同步揭露 就是兩個地方資訊已經在揭露了"},{"start":412.681,"end":437.121,"text":"我們這個修法裡面明定的是三個一塊是採購一個是補助一個是廣告這三個都是要揭露的好不好那更重要的是你剛剛提的預算法裡面某部分做的這個做的公佈之後還不夠完整所以我們才訂了這個條文好不好那我今天非常鄭重的要求 主委今天有好幾個立法委員跟我們台灣民眾黨的黨團都已經提出了修正案了你剛剛有提說你們有在討論對不對"},{"start":438.366,"end":467.415,"text":"我們黨政軍部分什麼時候可以提出行政院院版跟委員報告很抱歉因為這個重大政策是需要委員會議通過那目前NCC沒有委員會議所以院版 官方的版本對案是比較沒有辦法提出來的所以你剛才是講說你沒有在研究嘛那要過就是委員對啊 那NCC委員就叫行政院長總裁趕快提啊趕快提啊 他們是不是有財務法不依法行政該提的人士他不提啊"},{"start":469.113,"end":494.356,"text":"前委會也不提 NCC也不提戴總統 道跑官也不提他貪玩整個國家是不是你們如果是真的需要NCC委員要通過的話請儘快趕快去跟那個賴清德講 跟那個卓中泰講趕快把NC的人事提 不只要趕快提跟時間賽跑要趕快提 影響太大了第二個提出全民可以接受的專業性過的 獨立性過的要不然 諸位"},{"start":495.217,"end":506.893,"text":"NCC以前本來形象不錯所以這幾年搞到變成政治打手了趕快提出大家全民可以接受的人選趕快把 讓NCC的形象可以更好加油啦我們適當 適當實際反應謝謝委員好 謝謝張啟開委員"}]}},{"id":"166238","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166238","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3bef88bb8149fef5bb5dd3a7969bdec96955b66d75a5d596811b2de8b317ab69f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:57:49 - 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麻煩陳代理主委 代理主委請"},{"start":11.124,"end":36.483,"text":"文豪這個跟主委請教這個在大概兩三年前這個電信業有整合嘛有整併嘛那現在就是電信三雄那當初在整併的時候NCC有提供一些附帶條件嘛對不對那我看一下附帶條件大概有兩項是我比較關注的第一個是4G跟5G的一個涵蓋率另外一個是超標頻譜的一個繳回這兩項"},{"start":38.945,"end":65.654,"text":"那這個涵蓋率這個問題應該比較簡單啦大概是他們有負債條約2027 4G要98%嘛4G要99% 5G要98%那這部分應該時間也差不多快到了 剩一年的時間這部分我們有在掌握他們目前的一個涵蓋率了嗎我們都有持續在追蹤 包括當初任何這個合併案的我們要求他的相關的一些要求 付款行政指導也好 我們都有在追蹤"},{"start":66.564,"end":95.342,"text":"那就涵蓋率這部分他們有這兩家有都達標了嗎還是在努力中基本上人口涵蓋率應該都沒問題所以人口涵蓋率這兩點98%跟99%這兩點他們大概都已經達標了對好那另外一個請教就是這個另外一個比較麻煩的就是超標的一個評普那台灣當然有大概有大概回顧一些相關的新聞有一家已經繳回了對不對遠傳繳回了遠傳繳回那另外一家台灣大哥大"},{"start":96.422,"end":121.018,"text":"還在訴訟當中那目前我們針對他們沒有依照沒有依照這個附帶決議的部分我們有哪些行政處置的作為那跟後續的情況 細一點我們當初應該是罰了三次待機然後他也間接就違反了網路事務計畫也罰了三次總共應該是將近好幾百萬有沒有明確一點的數字"},{"start":121.735,"end":134.501,"text":"好像是300萬發一次250萬發一次加起來應該是我印象中應該是有三次加起來應該是將近800萬850萬總共就是3加3總共850萬加上代金的話代金是每次30萬3次90萬加起來就900多萬"},{"start":143.826,"end":160.877,"text":"九百多萬嘛好那這部分因為他們有提行政訴訟嘛對不對那行政訴訟當然這個就是訴訟之後的一個事情那這在行政訴訟的這過程當中我們還是一樣在執法當中嗎還是說你們就是等訴訟結束之後再決定怎麼做因為目前他已經繳回了"},{"start":161.678,"end":187.477,"text":"他已經繳回了所以就是針對過去還沒有繳回的一個部分當時還沒有繳回錢的處罰那這部分就是後續就是一個輸送的一個過程那這個可能他們當初有講可能會影響一些原用戶的使用的權利的部分那不曉得他們有沒有造成一些跟原用戶的一些客戶的一些投訴或糾紛等等的"},{"start":187.973,"end":215.302,"text":"一開始的時候確實那個台哥大跟跟台灣之星這一塊確實一開始客訴比較多後來大概都處理好了目前大概這一部分的問題都應該算是都已經翻頁了好那接下來我再這部分好那這部分已經講完那後續都等輸送了那後續再請問一下這個今天的主題就是大家都知道這個修法的一個內容那就是我們這邊這個有一些委員的提案是主張這個"},{"start":216.963,"end":236.776,"text":"修法在法院判決這個確定之前他們是有這個權利的嘛對不對那這部分假設啦就是一個假設性的問題看您願不願意回答那假設法定通過了雖然說你們可能不太認同這樣子的一個論述那假設法定通過了之後那針對中天案你們會有怎樣的一個作為"},{"start":237.85,"end":251.335,"text":"那如果最終一切的救濟手段都確定還是通過的話那行政機關本身就是依法行政會來依法的處理但是現在目前是沒辦法處理就大案子在根據我們組織法9條2項6款是"},{"start":255.057,"end":275.723,"text":"經營業者的經營權的得上變更需要委員會來處理那必須要搭配由委員會來處理所以主委的意思是說就是只要立法院修法通過之後那總統府也公告實施了那你們就是依照法條去做而不是而不會等到法院最後的一個判決再決定要不要附照對不對"},{"start":277.614,"end":290.8,"text":"也跟委員報告其實這個法律保留例外的情況其實剛剛司法院先進以後講其實一般的情況是比較很少看到的那其實目前我們國內這個例外的東西"},{"start":291.94,"end":316.202,"text":"我禮拜天禮拜六大概很努力的去找一下大概只有稅捐寄生法39條有的排除利用但是稅捐寄生法的排除利用其實他還是有前提的他還是要繳一部分稅款提供擔保才可以是免除被強制執行所以基本上而言這個行政訴訟法116條第一項的例外適用其實是很少很少很少的"},{"start":316.522,"end":326.09,"text":"沒關係 我就要確認一下我們機關的作為而已啦機關的作為你們會等還是就是依照法條來做後續的作為"},{"start":327.664,"end":353.459,"text":"現況因為還在還在討論當中不是修過我們但是依法行政現在的法律長什麼樣子我們就找現在現在還是要還是要116條現在還沒修過嘛對不對那修過之後嘛假設修過之後那你們會就是法律公佈之後就開始實施了嗎那你們會一樣等法院訴訟結束之後還是說適用這個新的法就是法院還沒訴訟終結前那他還是有這個權利"},{"start":356.468,"end":374.721,"text":"基本上我們就是依法行政如果規管法修成這樣子那如果這個規管法的法律的一些最終的他的定性是已經確定窮盡了一些救濟手段救濟可能的想法之後就是要依法行政依法行政怎麼處理在NC的部分必須要經過委員會議來處理好那"},{"start":377.287,"end":404.057,"text":"另外就是說 請教一下那他可能有一些台的一些問題嘛對不對假設他要復台那有一些台他目前已經是其他業者在使用了嘛對 我也講到重點他目前的原來的品位現在已經有其他頻道業者在那邊所以這一塊其實涉及到第三方就是有限建設的平台那這個目前是第三方人的利益而且是商業機制的那這一塊法律上的執行確實是有他的挑戰難度"},{"start":405.057,"end":428.238,"text":"所以這個後面就是可能是需要到協調嘛對不對比如說原坪 原坪道復原有些台看起來它是可能有一些挑戰的對 白話來講就是說那個房子現在已經有新的租客了那你要把新的租客請他離開這個現在保護等等這些都是一個問題而且目前它是個商業機制"},{"start":428.973,"end":447.781,"text":"好不好那既然我覺得就是主委我其實我還蠻尊重您在立法院的一些回覆啦那但是既然現在這個法現在已經在立法院討論當中了那討論當中有委員提討論中就代表他可能會過他有可能過過不過這我還不知道那假設過的情況下我也希望說NCC針對假設過了之後"},{"start":449.662,"end":466.308,"text":"那我們NCC可能必須要有哪一些問題需要去克服或是討論或後續衍生的一些問題我也希望NCC針對後續可能的修法通過來做一些及早的一些因應會的 我們會就個人可能都會來準備好 那謝謝主委 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錯殺的規定而這個規定其實從它公布我記得應該是2006年公布之後開始實施之後就產生了這樣的一個問題可是我沒有看到NCC有任何作為NCC近年來有提修法嗎"},{"start":111.898,"end":120.087,"text":"其實我們內部都有持續在滾動檢討其實那個法案其實很早就準備好所以你們準備的方向是什麼呢你們認為是要處罰嗎還是持續的維持處罰媒體業者的規定嗎"},{"start":128.143,"end":142.373,"text":"一言以蔽之可休不可廢直接投資絕對禁止間接投資要有配套配套基本上就是說他不能達到實質控制主委不好意思這個陳副主委您沒有聽懂我的意思我的意思還是說處罰要處罰誰嘛你到底是要處罰那個投資行為還是處罰"},{"start":149.124,"end":174.253,"text":"被投資的就是莫名其妙我也不知道到底是誰間接直接持有我的股份結果呢你現在的規定是處罰被投資被投資的媒體業者所以你們的修法方向是什麼呢我們修法方向剛剛委員報告的要配套裡頭如果業者他沒有做到假設說他間接投資的他還是有擔任董監事擔任經理人這部分業者一樣去做那他就違反違反他就有罰則他就罰到業者了"},{"start":175.393,"end":196.438,"text":"就跟現行的說 罰到這個規則對象不合理的部分就可以處理掉好所以只有說是當直接投資的時候直接投資的時候然後這個業者他是擔任這個媒體業者的董監事這時候你們處罰不是 直接投資一律不准直接投資是一律不准嗎 先講董監事的問題"},{"start":198.939,"end":216.388,"text":"如果他還是讓他去做總監事當經理人這一部分那葉子如果我們是不准的不准他今天投資的部分他代表的股權那些人不可以去控制這些公司當他的總監事當他的經理人如果他讓他去當那就違反這條對應的規定"},{"start":217.589,"end":238.558,"text":"我坦白說因為我們先前也講過這個間接投資你到底是要算幾成是算兩成三成還是無限成這其實都有很多的問題那麼本席擔任過NCC委員我不是不知道說這個問題的嚴重性而且最重要是說你們每一次的裁罰處分都被行政法院撤銷"},{"start":239.418,"end":259.05,"text":"所以連行政法院都認為這個條文是有問題的可是呢NCC已經這個這麼多年來然後你們說有修法修法我看也沒有提到這個立法院來好幾年前在交友會有討論後來也就不了了之所以本期這題我最重要的目的就是不要錯法"},{"start":260.342,"end":279.428,"text":"不要錯罰媒體業者那至於就是說那你們說投資行為人誰來處罰誰來處罰請問一下NCC願意處罰嗎你們認為你們有這個權限嗎我們也認為說這邊是需要修正所以這邊的立場我們是跟委員是一致的所以我們的看法好我先要講嘛你認為說誰是有權機關還是金管會金管會你們願不願意未來擔任"},{"start":285.729,"end":304.751,"text":"違反黨政軍退出媒體然後直接投資或間接投資的行為人然後你們作為他的主管機關你們對於這個違反者予以處罰這個部分金管會可能沒有辦法做這樣的一個主管機關那所以NCC你有辦法嗎"},{"start":306.363,"end":331.098,"text":"你們有辦法這樣去追溯他的股份然後予以處罰嗎你們願意承擔起這個責任嗎我們是認為是我們是賦予業者這個要有這個義務業者沒有做到的話是要處罰業者你要處罰你你賦予哪個業者業務嗎你現在根本就不是一般的公司行號企業的這個不是股份證券股份公司的這個主管機關嗎你要賦予他什麼義務"},{"start":332.901,"end":357.204,"text":"簡單來講就是這樣子假設某一家衛工業者他有間接的他有股權上有間接的黨政軍但是他還是讓他間接持有黨政軍股權的那些法人代表也好或者各個也好去做董監事是 陳副主委我想這個問題還蠻大的那我想這個部分就請你要去再去了解不好意思可以麻煩召委再多給我一個問題的時間那麼有關於就是公開NCC"},{"start":359.026,"end":378.068,"text":"諮詢會議委員的名單你們認為說這樣的公開可能會影響到未來委員擔任的意願我想要問的是擔任NCC的諮詢委員平靜聲色煥躁的諮詢委員是怎麼樣是件很丟人很見不得人的事嗎為什麼不能公開"},{"start":379.417,"end":405.473,"text":"跟委員報告因為是過往 因為兩點 第一點諮詢委員會的意見是中間過程是我們委員會做成最後最終決定前的參考意見所以他不是最終的 我想要問的是說現在NCC的深色評鑒換照諮詢委員會是不是已經是明定在法條裡面 它是個法定組織它是不是跟訴願委員會一樣所以訴願委員會的委員有沒有公開委員會的名單有沒有公開"},{"start":410.098,"end":430.726,"text":"有吧 溯源委員會的名單當然要公開呀所有的溯源委員會的名單都有公開那你為什麼明明是明訂在這個衛廣法第20條裡面就要設置這個深色評鑑換照諮詢委員會議我今天沒有說要公開你們在中間的討論過程會議記錄當然要公開中間討論過程是屬於準備程序這不需要公開"},{"start":434.767,"end":454.849,"text":"但是名單要公開我覺得這是一個也是負責的很重要的一個議題資訊越透明大家越對於就是諮詢委員然後認為他們有具有公信力所以所做出來討論大家會尊重可是你們現在如果都不公開都是黑箱作業也難怪大家會對於NCC所做出來"},{"start":455.309,"end":471.164,"text":"你可不可以補充報告其實這個案子在過往的行政訴訟裡頭其實北高行或法院也有做出一些認為說他們的名單其實不宜公開公開會讓這些委員那是因為現在法條沒有明文規定嘛我們未來法條通過的話讓他公開他當然就公開啊"},{"start":473.506,"end":491.344,"text":"對 所以本席是認為說你們的說法你們的論述要一致為什麼書院委員會的名單有公開然後但是你們現在的這個深色換照評鑒諮詢會議這麼重要的會議竟然委員可以不公開好 那我想這個部分的話就請主委回去再多思考好 謝謝好 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所以相對我今天我看待的情況應該不是不是這個分攤的問題如果要去強調分攤問題那我建議絕對不能只有增加10%而已我們現在是按照基本工資的10分之一嘛 對不對通關可以交10分之一嘛 也可以交10分之一以下嘛好 你有去精算過他交10分之一前鋒的跟交10分之一以下的比例是多少"},{"start":244.48,"end":272.328,"text":"我講的話大部分都交百分之十對嘛 多數都交百分之十嘛對不對好 那會交低於百分之十的比例應該是不高嘛是所以我要表達就是說當我們這個政策在保障農民讓農民從事農業有看到未來的保障有看到這個希望的情況之下但是那個比例一直拉不高起來所以如果陳魯剛才部長答覆我的因為他有買了農機具 他有相關的貸款所以再繳這條錢他覺得負擔蓋單的情況之下"},{"start":274.429,"end":279.078,"text":"你幾十趴怎麼夠你幾十趴是多少 像現在是兩萬八千塊兩千八百幾塊對不對 我們的兩千八百幾塊變幾"},{"start":286.314,"end":306.198,"text":"給他們負擔 把他們的10%給我們的新雙年 給他們給2、3百塊我跟委員報告喔 我現在設計一個月給2、3百塊 你覺得對這個農民 土金的產生誘因嗎沒有 我現在設計的就是說 你如果參加退職除菌的時候我的農業的補助我可以加碼 那個加碼像農機區的補助我可能可以加到3% 5%那這個讓他的經濟的負擔降低的"},{"start":310.499,"end":319.504,"text":"效果會比你這邊 又多了好像3.7啊或是2.8這樣子 還多啦因為這下去就是比較多錢啦你如果可以這樣想當然是比較好啦但是你如果單純說這個 加這個10%他不會說 我覺得那個誘因是不夠啦因為是 一個月加2.3百塊而已嘛"},{"start":327.108,"end":335.274,"text":"但是這就放鬆去走,這我絕對要支持嘛但是你剛才說有附帶的一些相關的一些獎勵我想才可以有辦法讓他們這個才有機會拉抬那個覆蓋率這是你來的行,這是你做副主委的時候嘛過去進步,你的年來去訂的這跟我們所有的政黨委員大家共同檢討出來一個很好一個情形我們就是要讓我們這些青龍"},{"start":352.307,"end":364.973,"text":"甚至於四五歲的農民他來這個時間點加入都有可以增加他的保障真的讓他們可以匆匆農農啦從事這個農業工作得到更高更好的這樣保障情況之下但是這一個參與率"},{"start":369.017,"end":391.847,"text":"這麼樣的一個程度相對的農業人口一直在下降我覺得這個要有很大的一個討論的空間然後應該要快速應變的這個作為才可以讓農民真正感受到當時的我們在推這個政策對他們真的有一定程度的保障他們願意主動也幫我們去宣導也幫我們去邀集"},{"start":393.128,"end":412.127,"text":"讓真正的青龍也好 甚至樹勢的農民來享受到這樣的一個德政才是一個正確的 好的一個政策啦感謝魏委員的提醒啦 我想我們會朝這個方向來看怎麼樣再更精進啦好 這個是不是一個月內可以提出相關的精進的計畫給委員會來做參考"},{"start":414.085,"end":430.778,"text":"我想我可以先提供就是說退休儲金的這些補助的措施有沒有的一個提升的一個設計法條的部分因為未來會進到主條審查那主條審查的話看委員的想法最後的想法是怎樣"},{"start":431.438,"end":453.578,"text":"所以法條是一件事情 相關的獎勵 相關的獎勵這個我們希望能夠一個月之內會提供給你對 也可以給農業部相關的一些意見做參考嘛 對不對好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長應該是說 那些配套配套我會先提供對 你要先提供法 因為法進來了我們12月22號要審 你要一併"},{"start":454.438,"end":472.852,"text":"然後進到我們委員會 下次討論的時候我會把配套也會 然後也會提供給委員這樣對 條文是一件事情 相關的配套 我覺得是重中之重了解 了解 謝謝 謝謝在12月22號同步把配套一樣 我會努力跟行政院爭取趕快進院會 好了謝謝 謝謝 好 謝謝主席劉建國委員 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166233","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166233","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b332d5827612c5763846ee6dd7c9e9cb529da9d853841b9c5b74a0a456827cbec75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:49:45 - 11:55:16","影片長度":"00:05:31","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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有請陳部長陳部長就在那邊等我們來 陳部長"},{"start":14.161,"end":32.993,"text":"部長我剛剛聽到跟那個蔡議委員的這個答詢當中就是有關於我們這個老容津貼的這一個部分的排付條款的部分事實上之前兩年多前本席提案的時候就說後來顧慮到跟其他的社福津貼八大津貼掛鉤在一起不想要單獨處理聽起來是不是已經脫鉤了是不是"},{"start":34.528,"end":56.577,"text":"我跟委員報告就是之前委員也有一些建議嘛然後還有就是我們也根據一些委員的建議設計的版本我們已經送到行政院去的所以說你們是打算脫鉤處理沒有 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第一個部分就是您剛才講的就是說最後30年後到的時候我們會每一年都會隨著基本公司的調整然後如果說用1比1.5的時候我們試算過了就是說未來農民的部分大概一個月可以領到4萬5左右那我們也考量多說當我們送進行政院的時候一定會跟其他的社福基金相比那一般勞保的部分大概只有3萬3所以"},{"start":194.882,"end":211.696,"text":"那個通過性的機會比較比較比較小啦所以我們才會設計6比4然後增加一些其他的誘因那個你跟老闆比較你們當然會跟老闆比較但是時間性的那個時間相對不一樣啊因為我們這個執行的時間相對比較短嘛那為何以後拉長的時間的變數比較大"},{"start":213.638,"end":225.344,"text":"更何況你所說的這個30年也不容易有30年齡為什麼因為這些95%的部分大部分都是屬於這一個40到64歲你如果現在60歲 50歲你是怎麼可能再做30年那是不可能的事情 對不對"},{"start":230.926,"end":255.329,"text":"部長 所以說你這個30年的這個估計方式基本上就有前提上的一個誤判就是鼓勵親農 我們鼓勵親農就是有一個誤判嘛所以說你不可能所得替代率會那麼高嘛你跟其他的勞保的部分來做比較勞保的部分兩種加總起來他還有勞退的部分他不當當加起來也不只如此啊所以我是覺得"},{"start":256.03,"end":280.171,"text":"那個部長 你這個部分真的要再重新思考清楚第一個呢 前面的部分呢整個社會安全網的強化不夠那你沒有從幾副觀念 你只有從提撥的概念可是呢 就30年的計算方式 你又不死所以說你會變成這個所得替代率不足的情況底下而社會安全網不夠啦我請那個部長再回去思考一下我想我們會從不同的年齡"},{"start":281.332,"end":308.438,"text":"投保的年齡有沒有 我們另外算出一個他可以領的部分對 集聚的部分我們再來做分析不是他們不當當全部弄起來而且還有一個就龜丹溫泉的最近有一個1.2億你們林業署的這個燃沙壩花了1.2億還有覆潑設施本來是用來做農業的灌溉還有包括土地的流失啊最近說要把它拆掉啦這是什麼一回事啊這個已經取消施作了喔什麼 已經施作了"},{"start":309.858,"end":329.349,"text":"跟委員報告那個我們那天開說明會完之後那因為那個民眾他們里長他們的那個意見我們都非常尊重對你們要尊重嘛對好不容易花了1.21才沒多久而已那整個南溪龜灘那邊的農民都在反彈啊取消就好了謝謝謝謝郭國文委員"}]}},{"id":"166232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166232","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b34f2097ff6e68370846ee6dd7c9e9cb529da9d853841b9c5bdca8d0dceb804b035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:41:34 - 11:49:41","影片長度":"00:08:07","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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增加誘因而且也減輕農民的一個經濟負擔那我這邊也有列舉了這個農退儲金的一個提繳的一個提繳的人那看起來從111年開始就卡在9萬"},{"start":44.85,"end":63.657,"text":"甚至在114年感覺人數反而還減少了那我想要請教部長那對於這樣農退除菁的一個提繳人數一直沒有辦法再往上拉覆蓋率大概就41%那你們的看法是怎樣那以及你對我這一次的提案那農業部的態度是怎樣呢"},{"start":65.285,"end":87.686,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個部分就是其實農保的人數也逐年在下降那現在從現在目前覆蓋率其實最低的是青年的部分從25歲到35歲這之間那他本身大概覆蓋率只有24%所以我們怎麼樣讓這些青年的農民能夠提高他的投保率是一個非常重要的目標"},{"start":88.507,"end":111.632,"text":"所以我們也做了一些問卷也跟青榮做了一些座談那因為他們在從事農業的時候因為他們的收入不是那麼穩定而且做了很多貸款初期的時候所以他們一直希望說能夠少繳一點然後他們覺得說後面的30年後他們沒辦法去想像30年後的保額提高會是怎麼樣的效果"},{"start":112.312,"end":138.088,"text":"但眼下如果低的話 他們願意來 比較願意來投保所以我們才會設計說 在保障一樣的情況之下農民少繳一點 政府多繳一點 就是6比4的方式來處理那這樣的話 我相信應該對他們會有一些 增加他們的投保的意願所以補充你會提前說 我們用6比4未來再查詳我們送到行政院的版本 就是用6比4的方式來送好 那這版本什麼時候會出來"},{"start":139.401,"end":154.39,"text":"這個版本其實已經送到院裡面一段時間了現在目前正等待院會通過以後就會送到立法院來好 那事實上我也關心還有一件事情就是我們在講老榮今天的排付條款"},{"start":155.31,"end":184.2,"text":"因為這個牌付條款你限縮農民他的不動產在五百萬那或者他的收入是在五十萬以下基本上這個對於農民來說是一個很大的不公平而且你知道事實上很多農民為了這條老農津貼可能他的不懂善愛抓貴貨愛抓貴貨給別人我覺得這個都增加了很多社會不必要的成本所以這個老農津貼的牌付條款"},{"start":184.699,"end":189.709,"text":"是不是可以來做一個比較大幅度的調整這件事情 農業部"},{"start":192.274,"end":218.732,"text":"我們也做了非常大幅度的調整也送到行政院去也跟院長報告過了大概分為三個部分第一個部分就是額度的部分過去額度是四年針對CPI去調整那現在我們的版本裡面也設計了大概兩年會去檢視如果CPI超過某個百分比的時候就啟動調整那這個東西可以比較實際的反映物價的部分像今年已經預估大概五點多嘛"},{"start":219.292,"end":244.913,"text":"那如果說能夠有調整的機會那更好那第二個部分是排富的部分那從您剛才所看到的現在目前的公告土地限值的部分從100年開始一直都沒有調過到目前為止已經增加大概64.78%所以我們在這一次的版本裡面我們也設計了一個未來的會根據公告地價而調整但是在最新的一次的話會一次把它調滿就是"},{"start":245.633,"end":266.285,"text":"過去的64.78沒調的我們一次把它調滿那未來也會根據土地公告限值CLV的部分去調整那第三個部分就是這個調整就是包括土地跟財政的部分我們也跟行政院說明就是農業本身的房子是我們農民辛苦一輩子努力得到的他的房子的"},{"start":267.586,"end":280.81,"text":"的價值跟一般人家買房子的價值觀念是不一樣的所以我們也除了這些土地公告限值的部分是不是還有一個設計可以讓他的那個排富的門檻更高一點這個部長就是說"},{"start":282.631,"end":305.944,"text":"不然因為你們看起來就是說你們是要房子跟土地價值500萬可能會把這幾年沒有調的就是64%這個把它補回來但是我覺得你那個唯一自住的房子扣除額度我覺得我注定既然是唯一自住的房子這部分就全部不要算進去"},{"start":307.199,"end":327.235,"text":"因為它就是大家嘛 不管它是大好大壞農民大好住好一點也不是罪過嘛那幹嘛還要把它限一個400你400你把64%加上去可能也是到達700而已啊事實上以現在整個的一個房價來說 我覺得這些都不好啦"},{"start":328.195,"end":349.917,"text":"看可以說你們在調整的時候不然就是至少對於唯一自住的房子這一件事情就不要去搭以後就不要再去限制這一件事我跟委員報告在實務上因為我們的版本送到行政院去已經經過了一些討論了那如果說還要再重新去做這些思考像您剛才的建議的話"},{"start":350.658,"end":368.435,"text":"那整個版本要重新退回來再一次所以後續我會尊重委員會的一些討論我們都有很多我們自己的版本而且未來在討論的時候就是說有院版那每個立委的版本大家一起討論那農業部應該要更持平更以農民的立場然後來去思考這整件事就是他只有他"},{"start":371.738,"end":392.216,"text":"真的只有一棟而且是他自己住的部分我覺得這個是可以來討論的像農舍我們現在都沒有在處理是啦當然農舍是沒有嘛但是很多農民並不是多數農舍他們就可能說在附近的住宅區買一間房子而且這房子事實上有的地方漲價的還漲的蠻多的"},{"start":394.758,"end":420.234,"text":"你這個唯一自助啊 他就要去歡樂說我這個唯一自助啊 現在到底是錢是多少 會超過嗎 超過我的勞動津貼的薄餘嗎我們不要讓他去歡樂這個啦 讓他們生活過得可以比較信賴的 更加寬心的啦好不好 那部長我再短短的時間再澄清一件事啦就是喔 我們替我們基層的民意代表 我們基層的民意代表"},{"start":421.074,"end":443.151,"text":"他們可能本來都是農保那因為選舉然後變成民意代表後就變成沒有農保的狀況那等到了他落選或者是他不選了他可能需要恢復農保可是已經超過65歲了所以他就變成什麼保都沒有民意代表可以維持農保餒民意代表可以維持農保維持農保是要兩年後"},{"start":444.941,"end":455.983,"text":"兩年後 這件事情部長可以了解一下他要恢復農保沒有 他不用退民意代表他是可以維持農保的喔可以一直維持嗎可以維持農保 意思是這樣子"},{"start":457.176,"end":483.586,"text":"好那這件事我要再理解一下因為我在把資料提供給委員我現在聽到的一些反應就是說因為他當了民意代表後他的農保沒有了那等到了他落選了他超過65歲他就等於是未來這基層民意代表我們所有的民意代表就不用退保都可以維持農保那你把資料給我一下我覺得這部分我可能要再釐清一點好謝謝"},{"start":485.488,"end":487.039,"text":"谢谢蔡玉委员资讯"}]}},{"id":"166231","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166231","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3a7a6385188d507c346ee6dd7c9e9cb529da9d853841b9c5bc5430e83854d74935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:35:57 - 11:41:21","影片長度":"00:05:24","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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凤岭跟万荣它这是烟社伙的那个淤泥可能短时间里面没有办法耕作那可能他们就没有收入这个时候他们如果要有参加农退除禁的时候没有办法按时缴纳或者是说他们六个月连续被扣款失败的话有没有一个机制可以保护他们"},{"start":37.95,"end":58.381,"text":"我想第一個我們已經有延長六個月了然後我們會做一些比較更彈性的來調整就是說針對這個地區的農業的復耕的進度如果的話進度如果沒辦法超過六個月還是沒辦法處理的話我相信我們還會再延 而不會影響它的權益啦這個部分我想我們會來彈性的調整"},{"start":59.301,"end":86.976,"text":"好 这几天我问了一些就是灾损的那个民众有没有收到补偿金他们说确实有收到不过有些建议跟部长报告因为常常原住民地区的耕作物不是单一的有的时候它的耕作面积不是很大所以当然就时效性因为地缘辽阔还有承办人员的辛苦他们要翻山越岭那常常为了去一个地方可能要骑打探的摩托车上去结果去了以后结果申报结果没有办法"},{"start":87.256,"end":116.142,"text":"沒有辦法獲得補償或者說補償金非常少那有一個建議就是說如果它確實是它只靠這一分地或是不到一分地的這個農作物在過生活其實可以去問說它這一年它因為這一塊地它實際的收入多少有一個補償的機制比如說它這一年完全沒有收入的話是不是如果它原本是應該可以拿到一萬塊是不是給它補償個三千塊或者是這樣的一個基準來弄因為現在的補償金是這樣它是看作物類別嘛"},{"start":116.562,"end":126.735,"text":"然後如果說他這次的話是芋頭結果他芋頭田裡面因為可能他的需要他會種一些花生啊或者什麼就其他的雜糧可是他在補償的時候他不是針對這個"},{"start":128.487,"end":147.385,"text":"所有的種類他只對單一種類所以他的耕地面積已經很少了結果他補償的時候是又是以農作物的話他實際可以拿到的補償金可能不到一千塊所以我就說應該是按照他實際一年的收入然後給他補償多少這樣的一個思考邏輯可以嗎我想跟委員報告特別是在"},{"start":148.106,"end":176.617,"text":"一些栽培面积比较少的话它同一块地会种的非常多的作物那相对的我们没有办法实际上去从它的作物它花生种多少量然后它的芋头种多少量这样去处理这个没办法处理的我知道那是个别那是因为特别辛苦的人所以我是觉得说如果有一个有别于一般的机制来讲的话至少让他们的生活至少有一些补偿这样这样的一个逻辑来帮忙他们可以吗"},{"start":177.774,"end":196.177,"text":"我這個可能會後再看實際的這些狀況因為基本上如果一塊地種很多的話我們會用大宗的部分來處理好那我們回到今天的主題就是關於年金的部分那我今天上午問了我們鄰居就是只要知道的農人我說你領多少錢他大概都是領大概8000塊左右"},{"start":196.567,"end":225.323,"text":"那我今天聽了質詢後大概我知道大概現在在推的是都是在講30年以後的事情所以那我覺得如果你要鼓勵年輕人的話你應該是要講說那每5年每10年你投入這個農保以後你可能我們的預期是多少因為他沒有辦法想到30年以後的事或者說他的誘因不足嘛然後你現在可能剛剛有講了他的可能像是2800那可能以後調到4比6的話可能是2200多那其實沒有差距很大"},{"start":225.723,"end":247.058,"text":"那如果你要怎么来用于这些年龄别的人我是觉得说你们的那个KBS应该是要去设定说各个年龄别愿意投入这个农保这个促进这个这个比例你要怎么来来努力把它完成那我现在看到全国的年龄别大概全国的那个涵盖率大概是30%左右嘛可是原住民的部分经过一番努力去年"},{"start":247.638,"end":276.037,"text":"今天才委員說6%現在我早上問他說目前進步到8%不過這個8%還是不足千人所以我是希望部長說我們原住民的人口五十幾萬人你說只有不到千人來參加這個而且我們幾乎都是現在都是轉型為農人了所以我是覺得說這個比例上面是不是也要檢討我們目前原鄉幾乎沒有一個很非常成功的農會或者說農會幾乎都是在跟原地"},{"start":277.578,"end":294.879,"text":"平地鄉的農會綁在一起所以沒有一個獨立自主的一個農會在經營所以這是一個契機去捲土原住民地區盤點平地原住民山地原住民地區的農會的一個契機讓這個農會可以真正的去強化它的功能然後增加我們年輕人的誘因好不好"},{"start":295.319,"end":319.362,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想我們已經在做就是我想過去原住民部落本身大概都是公所為主要的這些溝通的地方那農會相對的角色比較少一點這個部分我想我們已經要求一些農會我們提升一些農會的功能對於這個原民部落這些原住民朋友們的一些協助所以這個部分我們後續會來加強好 謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝 謝謝盧縣議員"}]}},{"id":"166230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3f11d5dd2fc61cb8846ee6dd7c9e9cb529da9d853841b9c5b581072cc072802035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:26:23 - 11:35:51","影片長度":"00:09:28","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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我想抒發部這一方面應該是有相當的水準可以來協助然後把這件事情做好那就拜託部長了"},{"start":233.146,"end":254.094,"text":"那另外今天大家在討論這個農退燭金啊我想農退燭金上路到現在政府一直強調說照顧農民喔這是一個非常重要的這個得證但是本席看到一些數據覺得說還有很多努力的空間那目前為止喔大家都知道說好像青農"},{"start":255.194,"end":280.559,"text":"救保的意願不是很高那今天也非常多的委員詢問我也想知道說目前部長是怎麼想的呢基本上就是催優除菌本身我們希望說保障不變然後農民負擔少一點政府負擔多一點因為我們的問卷看起來因為特別是青農我現在講的青農本身大概投保率只有24%非常低"},{"start":281.059,"end":306.491,"text":"然後我們也問了問卷以後也做了青年作單他們覺得說他們現在的收入不是那麼穩定而且有非常多的貸款如果這個時候能夠少繳一點保障不便的情況之下他們的意願就會提高所以我才會設計說用六四的方式然後再加上一個如果你有參加退休儲金的話我的其他的一些政策的補助我可以做適度的加碼那這樣的話對他們來講你的經濟負擔就能夠減輕"},{"start":309.672,"end":337.241,"text":"這又是另外一個本席想要討論的問題就是現在的青農真的是收入越來越低不穩定不穩定之外還越來越低真的包括說我們雲林為例好了今年菜家真的是慘不忍睹部長我很希望說農業部真的能夠提出一些解決的辦法也許跟過去傳統的辦法不一樣但您我相信您看了這麼多你也在農業部這麼久"},{"start":338.621,"end":356.437,"text":"你知道說這個系統肯定是有所缺失才會讓農民賺不到錢那怎麼辦呢如果假設他們持續賺不到錢我們設計這個當然是美意但是假設青農越來越少然後我們的老農也越來越少到底台灣誰要務農呢"},{"start":358.098,"end":372.353,"text":"不過我跟委員報告您所關心的其實在我們的菜價的部分其實短期葉菜類的衝擊是最大的短期所以我們現在一直因為特別是颱風過後連續幾個颱風的話因為颱風完了以後大家同時種那量就會變多因為上次"},{"start":378.599,"end":404.148,"text":"上次你就告訴我說你不會釋出這個冷凍的這一些這個硬質蔬菜來平衡菜價但事實上就是有嘛我跟委員報告齁我們釋出的那個才佔1% 2%而已他不會去影響那個只是針對多位區的部分真的真的是影響非常的大這個菜價大家都心裡想說如果假設颱風來了然後他趕快再去搶種"},{"start":407.529,"end":422.689,"text":"他種都還沒長出來 菜家就已經跌了 你知道嗎就已經跌到谷底 而且呢我覺得最大的一個問題是他跌了可能半個月甚至半年 三個月半年都沒有人要管的欸"},{"start":423.49,"end":445.145,"text":"好像你愛種是你家的事你賺不了你賠錢是你家的事那這樣子還有誰願意務農呢我跟委員報告我們會把這些種植的資訊更透明化讓農民去了解這是非常重要的然後第二個就是我們也會盡量的去輔導這些短期業菜類的部分他能夠用更好的設施栽培才不會受到颱風的影響"},{"start":446.145,"end":468.143,"text":"不只是設施栽培啊你價格提不起來你投資越多他損失越多啊現在農民最痛苦的就是成本成本全面上漲然後價格是全面下跌紙箱肥料人工農藥檢驗費用都比以前高尤其極端氣候讓務農喔這個難度越來越高那我也希望說"},{"start":469.744,"end":496.823,"text":"農業部其實最最重要的這個農漁畜牧都是部長所管的那你不能夠農民越來越少啊你知道農民越來越少因為賺不錢他就是要離開啊他就是要去吃陶爐啊我說實在我這一點喔我當然很歡迎我們青農回來我也覺得他們都很有想法然後也很會行銷但是那賺不錢他們就逼不得已他們就必須去上班"},{"start":497.483,"end":522.576,"text":"這一點部長有研究一下嗎我想我們會做整體的去考量特別是我們從明年開始應該會把更多的這些種植資訊在第一時間就讓農民去了解然後有關於比較容易集中種植造成後面產量更多的時候我們會再想辦法看有沒有辦法做一些計劃性的生產的部分去處理甚至說有沒有辦法保障他們"},{"start":523.616,"end":536.413,"text":"保障他們收入的這個我想市場的機制沒有辦法在現在沒有辦法用所謂的保障價格的方式或者是有一個樓地板或者是有一個最低的樓地板這個部分我想"},{"start":539.116,"end":561.95,"text":"部長研議一下大家集思廣益一下然後也借鏡一下其他國家我們一起來討論是不是能夠讓農民真的不要種菜種到懷疑人生懷疑說我為什麼在這裡我在做什麼那這樣子農業部的價值才有辦法大大的發揮起來謝謝部長謝謝你身體要保重要去整骨啦"},{"start":564.955,"end":569.092,"text":"谢谢张家军委员咨询谢谢部长我们请卢宪英委员"}]}},{"id":"166229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3c4726033aa173f84b5dd3a7969bdec969da9d853841b9c5bced9b5e91fca9c545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:17:23 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請陳代理主委陳代理主委請委員好 主委在討論今天這個修法的議題之前本席延續著剛剛林俊憲委員所講這個打炸"},{"start":23.188,"end":49.302,"text":"真的要有這個雷霆萬鈞的手段本席這一屆在這個台上質詢你 質詢速發部其實重點都在這裡那什麼叫雷霆萬鈞很好啊 小紅書只要不配合 已讀不回不配合打詐我們就 公權力就處理啊不只是小紅書 我只是舉小紅書當例子"},{"start":51.724,"end":76.641,"text":"本席很站...本席站在打詐立場我認為這個是做得非常對不只只有小紅書喔像這些公私行號其他一大堆不落地的已讀不回的他明顯影響消費者權益影響台灣社會秩序的就應該要像內政部這樣的手段嘛主委我同樣跟你講這個也會跟速發部長講"},{"start":77.833,"end":90.783,"text":"你們都不夠強硬啦打詐都不夠強硬啦台灣社會的民眾對於詐騙是深惡痛絕啦這些社群平台他賺他們的錢"},{"start":92.932,"end":116.617,"text":"但是政府面這些社群平台成為打詐成為詐騙的溫床政府要打詐請他們提供一些資料推三阻四這小紅書當然更誇張已讀不回在台灣也沒有什麼分公司所以這種要雷霆外民眾才有感說政府打詐是玩真的主委你覺得呢"},{"start":117.696,"end":143.443,"text":"支持 我們都持續在逃的方向努力所以我要講 剛剛林議員講這些例子你應該去盤點一下嘛到底是法律問題 還是說你行政一定要修法或者不需要修法 你透過行政的力量這些 要是這些其他公司行號不配合 你管他是哪一國的就應該讓民眾覺得政府在處理打詐就是雷霆萬鈞啊"},{"start":145.134,"end":168.837,"text":"就是手段非常的迅猛強硬過去我們都喝 你比較少那抒發部一直在喝咖啡本席對喝咖啡我就很有意見喝咖啡是先禮後兵啦咖啡一直喝沒用就要改喝毒藥不然民眾的權益每天看到這些新聞這些退休的老人家被詐騙"},{"start":170.572,"end":190.453,"text":"我們大家情何以堪啊 作為民意代表要把人民的心聲講出來啊主委 好不好 延續林俊憲委員剛剛所提的這些案例到底是要修法的 我們立法院來配合不用修法 你行政法案可以處理的就像小紅書這樣 就應該要處理啊 好不好好 沒問題"},{"start":191.857,"end":217.92,"text":"再來這一次的修法本席其實是很有意見的過去立法院我在立法院也20年了大家在無論朝野各政黨大家都在講委員會中心主義就是希望任何的法案讓在委員會裡面可以得到較為充分的討論再送到院會讓其他不是我們委員會的委員也可以共同參與然後再二讀三讀通過"},{"start":219.417,"end":243.05,"text":"那主席啊很熱心排了這個案子但是很可惜這案子交通委員都還沒有討論國民黨就在程序委員會裡面直接把黨版淨附二讀所以本席就覺得那今天交通委員會開這個的意思是國民黨裡面的黨版比較重要國民黨委員提的案子繼續在交通委員會裡面審然後國民黨黨版的這個"},{"start":245.477,"end":269.686,"text":"廣電的法案的修法就直接淨附二讀不需要再經過交通委員們的討論所以本席覺得這個是直接就打臉的主席這個主席真的就按照委員會中心主義來這裡討論不管最後結果是什麼這個就是一個立法品質的程序這也是尊重委員會的一個具體展現所以本席對於這種動不動"},{"start":271.277,"end":295.897,"text":"就進付惡賭你進付惡賭如果是說你的案子是因為其他人的已經惡賭了所以你跟不上所以併案進付惡賭這本席沒意見因為這個就是因為你的案子總不能你就還程序慢人家一點可是明明主席都已經排了這個案子要讓朝野委員好好的在交通委員裡面討論審查但卻人家擋板就直接送了"},{"start":296.63,"end":303.876,"text":"所以本席做一個立法院的老兵我覺得我應該把這個現象再一次點出來不要這樣搞"},{"start":305.244,"end":327.278,"text":"這個對立法院誰都有可能執政誰在立法院都有可能當院長立法院有一些慣例跟傳統是好的那有一些不好當然可以改那有一些是好的讓委員可以充分討論立法品質也會提升讓社會反應對於任何議案在社會的反應都足夠時間而不是直接就進負惡果"},{"start":328.55,"end":342.959,"text":"本席不管朝野什麼政黨我對這種沒什麼道理就要敬夫惡毒的如果說你是緊急譬如說我們現在救災法案很緊急你要敬夫惡毒朝野都沒意見那我覺得就敬夫惡毒但是這個有一些就好好的讓大家討論為什麼不這樣做呢"},{"start":345.601,"end":372.046,"text":"所以這個是本席第一點要提出來當然這跟你沒關那第二點這個修法裡面其實很多的東西要好好的討論我覺得NCC也應該做準備譬如說有委員提案要鬆綁黨政軍條款那事實上黨政軍介入媒體這個在台灣社會普遍人的想法裡面還是覺得不宜因為大家對黨政軍還是充滿著不確定不信任跟莫名的恐懼"},{"start":373.186,"end":388.555,"text":"所以你要讓黨政軍重新掌握媒體這個其實是不宜但是委員提案他是要刪除那個叫間接投資那本席不是主張要刪除不是主張黨政軍要讓黨政軍去介入媒體"},{"start":389.451,"end":414.117,"text":"但本席覺得這一個題目委員題刪除間接你們應該好好的接招啦什麼意思呢本席只舉一些小小的案例就好譬如說這個朱熹啊他合法正常的投資他買了一張啊某一個媒體公司在他直接去黑板買直接就買譬如說買了一張運動頻道愛爾達好了他買了一張"},{"start":418.39,"end":437.729,"text":"主委 可不可以在現行的法令底下他買了一張中式 買了一張愛爾達可不可以現行的法令 那都不行啊 不行 對對對主委你有沒有覺得這個有一點怪怪的就明明他只是一個投資者他的數量也不過一張"},{"start":439.349,"end":452.548,"text":"那他被說是黨政軍介入媒體因為他是立法委員所以我的意思是說是可被討論但是本席覺得直接把間接刪掉我也覺得這個太粗暴了"},{"start":453.311,"end":481.377,"text":"那間接刪掉的意思說只能直接不能直接可以間接那某政黨自己成立一個投資公司然後投資公司再去持有一個媒體這個叫間接喔那我們把只刪除間接說間接可以那這樣其實大家都知道只是轉個彎就間接投資了這個我覺得不妥這個違背了黨政軍這個介入媒體我們不希望黨政軍介入媒體的這個本質命題"},{"start":483.656,"end":496.026,"text":"但是現實的商業操作裡面它卻存在著一些我們現行的法令規定裡面過於嚴苛或不合理的部分所以我認為這個題目應該是被"},{"start":498.598,"end":525.499,"text":"已經有委員提了嘛而且是多數黨的委員提的所以他通過的機會很高NCC應該要把道理講清楚如果我們反對間接投資那我們應該要怎麼一定程度讓一些太陽他其實是跟黨政軍介入媒體無關的太陽他應該是可以被合理存在那我覺得這個就進入一個比較理性讓社會大眾也知道說"},{"start":526.955,"end":554.732,"text":"我們的想法跟立場是什麼所以我的意思是說他被提出來討論本席是同意的但是直接把間接直接刪除這個我覺得過於粗暴他應該有一些條件的規定譬如說你持股要多少譬如說你買個一張兩張這可能不能算黨政軍但你持股達到多少就有可能會對媒體實質產生的影響或對內容有一定程度的控制那這個就違背了那個精神這不可以"},{"start":555.936,"end":582.194,"text":"主委所以回去應該好好的面對這個題目這部分我們幕僚作業其實都有準備好所以今天因為有人送二讀了我就不再因為時間這個太多條了本席就只一個例子那另外社會也擔心譬如說你的評鑑你的換照全是有些國家要換照有些國家不用換照都有他的文化背景跟他的這個歷史發展上找到的意義"},{"start":583.41,"end":600.108,"text":"所以他沒有叫做絕對的對或絕對的錯那台灣社會也是一樣我們台灣社會面對譬如說對媒體多數人是負面反正因為台灣高度 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網路購物詐騙那一定要優先針對他"},{"start":174.668,"end":195.236,"text":"那第二就是你講的假投資詐騙假投資詐騙那更複雜第一個他必須要利用人的想投資的那個慾望或者是貪念第三他必須營造出就是他的技術會更高營造出這個真的可以讓你賺錢種種"},{"start":197.737,"end":210.386,"text":"我現在講一般人民生問題最常碰到的網路詐騙這裡有個新聞2023年有一個當事人用企業的名義去向電信業者申請了30萬門的電信號碼你知道"},{"start":219.337,"end":227.128,"text":"我們的法令的腳步多慢到2023年還可以用企業的名義一次就申請30萬個"},{"start":230.478,"end":258.288,"text":"那個電信的門號後來就擋掉了後來現在不行了嘛對就打這條例事情前的那後來都把這個洞鎖起來了2023年還可以喔那2024年才不行嘛對不對去年就不行了因為我們打詐司法通過以後我們就有一個KYC啦你比較了解到你到底誰來申請門號可是在那之前幾乎啊你用企業的名義啊你可以申請無限量的門號好"},{"start":261.212,"end":286.394,"text":"那你知道在網路上你要開一個購物平台啦你要開一個帳戶你必須要用一個手機號碼通常是這樣那一個手機號碼開一個網路購物平台上的帳號那如果啊你被發現是詐騙像我給你看了這個新聞有兩個嫌疑犯"},{"start":287.888,"end":313.27,"text":"他們四個人 申辦了九萬多筆的大哥大門號你看這個很可怕四個人的清高版整個合碼然後去一個購物平台他創設了好幾萬個賬戶供詐騙集團使用結果呢被抓到"},{"start":314.898,"end":341.36,"text":"被抓到以後呢 那NCC就會處理啦你就會把他申請的這幾個電信門號 你會把它給撤銷NCC有做到啦 有 好但是 事發部就沒有這個聯繫了來 我們再來看一下他用大哥大的門號一般 那個購物平台會要求你要有一個電信門號才可以申請一個購物平台的帳號"},{"start":342.401,"end":369.638,"text":"好那現在被抓到了電信門號被NCC撤銷了但是這些詐騙的帳號在購物平台上仍然繼續存在繼續活躍那你說的網路現在購物平台是誰在管那伺劃部在管嘛這塊我們都有協作我們是透過高檢署把這個門號這邊設詐處理掉的我們同步請高檢署來來來我再給你看"},{"start":371.579,"end":390.603,"text":"我們現在並沒有這樣的一個跨部會的聯繫我希望你們要趕快去我們加強其實跟委員報告在今年其實我們就透過高檢署把這個設在門號轉給電商平台把它的一些帳號都1.8萬個帳號都剷除掉了你們行政部門為什麼要推給你們為什麼要這樣推呢"},{"start":393.204,"end":412.542,"text":"不是推 那因為我們高點數我跟你講 你不是覺得要打炸 打炸國家隊沒有 那是個合作的平台 因為高點數不是叫一個合作平台啊只要 但是只要你NCC把這個帳號給取消掉你應該就要通知另外一個管理網路的部會嘛"},{"start":414.644,"end":430.894,"text":"其實我們也有同步給檢警到特別是165所以問題是蘇華部的問題目前這個協作其實都有在處理今天蘇華部不來沒有我跟你說現在就是這個事情正在發生中"},{"start":432.697,"end":444.828,"text":"就是很多被破貨的詐騙他使用的當時在購物平台上在網路平台上他設立的那種詐騙帳號帳戶會繼續存在"},{"start":449.612,"end":467.777,"text":"那號碼已經被你這邊撤銷了撤銷只是讓他不能再去別的平台開立帳戶而已或者他不能使用但是他已經之前在網路平台上設立的帳戶他可以繼續騙我現在今天要跟你討論的就是這一點"},{"start":469.713,"end":485.614,"text":"有 我們有在處理先前台灣使用最多的通訊軟體那時候透過門號的處理也把它4萬多個帳號剷除剛剛跟委員報告我們今年年中透過高點數轉給速發部電商品來處理掉也處理掉1.8萬個帳號"},{"start":488.359,"end":508.473,"text":"才1.8萬嗎 不止吧是兩攤 第一攤那個是4萬多我給你看這幾個案件這些詐騙分子之前在電信公司申請的門號你看我這邊隨便貼一個9萬多個號碼之前媒體報導的也有一遍清三十幾萬在2023年以前這就都合法了"},{"start":512.878,"end":539.44,"text":"我們的法令是非常落伍的我們一直到去年打詐司法以後才禁止這樣行為所以現在在外面流通的不知道幾百萬個門號他們可以很隨意的去到處開設那種詐騙帳戶難怪台灣之前的那種詐騙那麼猖獗好不好 跨部會的事情你們要趕緊幫他處理好不好這樣才像一個打詐國家隊嘛好 那就事情你做一步了好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"166248","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166248","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b399ac43c80700f17146ee6dd7c9e9cb52e205c0f991a2210e40c3ce8f2effcf9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:14:35 - 10:24:34","影片長度":"00:09:59","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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請陳部長請部長部長"},{"start":23.343,"end":49.129,"text":"農民是我們國家糧食安全跟農村永續的發展的基礎所以我們也擴大對農民生活上的保障也做了很多的努力包括挖農老農津貼還有現在我們正要修法的農民的退休儲金的部分這就希望說他們有更多更好的保障也是鼓勵我們農民"},{"start":50.83,"end":75.746,"text":"大家都来从事我们农事工作但是这个农民的退休储金它这覆盖率也好大家投保的也比较少这一部分也针对我们今天希望说如何来提高一些诱因鼓励大家来投农民的退休储金刚刚听到部长你讲是六四来提拨是不是"},{"start":76.306,"end":89.334,"text":"是 我第一個跟委員說明現在的覆蓋率你這邊計算的可能有點錯誤因為48萬就業人口裡面有非常多的65歲以上不好意思 不是我錯誤是你們給我的資料是這樣子的"},{"start":90.475,"end":109.851,"text":"好 那沒問題 你修正我們現在目前就是因為以勞保來講85萬人然後65歲我們扣掉那現在覆蓋率是多少將近差不多50有到50因為實際65歲以下有真正的從事農業的部分大概是22萬"},{"start":111.96,"end":130.126,"text":"好 那如果覆蓋率有這麼高的話我們也是非常高興我們還是要努力啦還是要努力啦還有努力的空間嘛對 特別是青農的部分比較低青年農民的部分比較低那為什麼青農會比較低你知道這原因嗎因為青年農民本身他剛進入這個職場他的收入不穩定而且他有非常多的貸款"},{"start":130.686,"end":148.826,"text":"所以我們也做過問卷他們覺得說這樣的一個角對他們來講負擔比較大所以我們才會去設計就是說讓他負擔少一點政府負擔多一點在保障不變的情況之下去做這樣的設計這還有另外一個問題啦那很多人從本來是勞保的中年轉"},{"start":149.686,"end":170.767,"text":"轉型到了我們來農民做農業農務的工作所以他不希望浪費這個他們農保的這個年資能夠繼續的老保的那個年資所以他希望繼續有老保那所以老保的人要怎麼樣去參與我們的農民的這個退休處境這個方面有沒有辦法雙管齊下我"},{"start":171.047,"end":198.113,"text":"我想我們在歷次的跟青農座談裡面也發現到這一點就是說有一些他不願意放棄他勞保資格因為他已經繳了一段時間了但是他又真正的實際從事農業的部分所以這個部分大概有4萬多人所以我們也一直希望說在這個部分設計一個方案讓這些參與勞保的人但是又有實際耕作的農民能夠參加農民退休儲金"},{"start":199.053,"end":227.545,"text":"所以这个部长都有了解所以可以让他们一起参加其实也不是说他们没有从事劳保工作劳工的工作他们有两份工作有些工作是一些工作是责任制的所以他可以从事两项的工作所以可以给他们多一点鼓励像我们的农民的退休储蓄就是多一点鼓励保障他们的生活这样子的话他们会更多人来投入我们的农事工作好不好这个也要注意还有一点就是说"},{"start":228.545,"end":246.551,"text":"因為剛剛特別提到有老農年金老農年金的話他們一個月大概可以領八千一百一十塊錢那所以他很多人想說我就有這個部分了我就不需要再來投這個老農這個退休儲金了所以這一點的話我們要再怎麼樣去宣傳去鼓勵他們呢"},{"start":247.386,"end":276.581,"text":"這個就像LEGO在堆疊一樣我們最底層是農民退休儲金然後你如果那個老農津貼然後你如果說現在開始從事農業你有存一點錢的話退休的話所得更有保障這個部分我想我們會更努力的來做一個宣導所以提撥的他們可以領雙重更多對 未來可以領的更多比老農津貼還多就趕快把這個案子定案來我們 召委也在排這個案子希望能夠來做審查早日來那個草案修正通過好不好"},{"start":277.362,"end":279.031,"text":"那接下來本席要問的就是廚餘的問題"},{"start":281.978,"end":310.266,"text":"剛剛大家都有提到廚餘的問題那現在最重要廚餘的部分的話現在從2025年到2026年我們循序漸進先讓家戶的 家庭的廚餘先來退場然後再事業的廚餘 是不是那剛剛有提到部長有提到說現在補助這個黑毛豬的部分2025年 今年的話一頭是3600元請問明年一頭是多少錢不是"},{"start":314.378,"end":331.489,"text":"轉型的時候我們由廚餘變成飼料的時候我們給他每頭3600塊大概半年的飼料費另外我給他一些餵食系統因為飼料有另外的餵食系統從30萬到300萬根據他不同的規模因為我的資料裡面有看到說2026年如果說"},{"start":333.51,"end":356.867,"text":"他們在轉型當中 他們一投注之後補助1800塊是不是沒有 那個是明年的1月1號才來舉手說他要轉型的我們就希望說 因為明年1月1號開始你就要徵主嘛你要徵主才能夠高溫徵主對 那你如果說這個時候開始我們就希望說他在年底之前能夠說他願意轉型我們會給他輔導"},{"start":359.088,"end":366.415,"text":"那如果說最慢到明年的1月1號1月1號才決定 才決定的話現在已經12月幾號了到明年的1月1號 你的轉學時間太快了吧你就把3600塊變成1800塊 對"},{"start":374.246,"end":391.992,"text":"因為不是因為這個時間太急迫性了沒有因為1月1號開始他如果繼續用廚餘他就必須要符合增主設備三個條件所以在那個時間點他要嘛就是飼料要嘛就是廚餘那要廚餘的話他也許可以到年底來申請"},{"start":392.452,"end":419.184,"text":"部長因為你們2027年就全面禁止廚餘對不對所以現在已經12月了到明年2026年不到一個月的時間我認為你們循序漸進裡面要多給他們一點緩衝的時間所以到明年本席的建議啦還是維持一頭豬是3600塊他們一樣是高溫會去珍珠慢慢的循序退場因為這個廚餘部分在我們的家庭廚餘"},{"start":421.263,"end":448.023,"text":"這個大概一個月有1385公噸那置業廚餘的話大概760公噸那這個這樣加起來就2000多公噸你現在的廚餘的話你沒有這個能源化跟堆肥化你沒有這個設置的這個設備的話全部丟到焚化爐去焚燒你全部去焚化爐焚燒焚化爐能夠承受嗎這些等等都是問題所以"},{"start":449.844,"end":467.614,"text":"本席在這邊建議部長我們一定要完整的因應跟所有的配套我們要把這個所有的升值中心或者是說我們的高速這個堆肥的這個處理中心通通都要把它建置好來才可以承受這個處理的部分好不好"},{"start":468.514,"end":488.474,"text":"我跟委員報告當初在設計就有階低式的補助最主要就是因為我們一年以後完全禁止了所以這些猶豫期不要太長你如果變成飼料的話我們盡量的去協助你猶豫期不到一個月對啊現在已經12月幾號了沒有所以我們階低式的1月1號明年1月1號以後是1800"},{"start":489.375,"end":513.344,"text":"所以現在我說你那1800太快速了是不是在做研議還有就是廚藝的部分因為主席站起來還有廚藝的部分家庭的廚藝的話是比較多的你可以請他們快點來處理這個清潔隊或者是收這個廚藝的部分能處理但事業廚藝我昨天在碰到餐廳事業廚藝裡面他們就有提到說"},{"start":514.284,"end":533.536,"text":"他們的廚藝現在是有人去跟他收買來運送但是未來的話他們的事業廚藝的話誰去幫他運送誰去處理直接就增加這個費用啊環境部會負責找那個以種的清潔業者去收"},{"start":534.7,"end":549.697,"text":"這個費用的話是清潔業者環境部補助清潔業者嗎未來是地方政府必須要負責的地方政府是負責的很多餐廳不知道這些也都必須要做宣傳所以整套的過程這個部分環境部他有"},{"start":550.517,"end":570.959,"text":"農業部一定能夠循序漸進的包括就是廚藝的處理跟我們家庭跟我們的事業的廚藝都要看怎麼去處理配套都要完整還有我們的設備也要到位來處理這些廚藝廚藝也可以變成我們的經濟跟環境的這個循環的這個很重要的部分最重要的 拜託"},{"start":572.185,"end":578.05,"text":"黑毛豬的養豬戶穩住他們的生計我們會成立一個輔導團隊不要讓台灣未來都沒有黑毛豬了會 我們會成立一個輔導團隊一起來努力讓這個產業不要積極的跟他們溝通好不好會好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝李玉玲委員質詢謝謝部長我們現在陳昌明委員質詢完我們休息五分鐘我們請謝一鋒委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"166247","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166247","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3ffe9e4119da3ad7e46ee6dd7c9e9cb52e205c0f991a2210ef6fa5687ff727cf65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:17:29 - 09:26:02","影片長度":"00:08:33","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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部長 這個還是要保重齁 這個您是農業最重要的支柱啊 還是要請您要多保重來 部長我們今天要討論一下這個農退儲金制度齁老實講這個從我們當時110年通過開始實施到現在其實在經濟委員會裡頭已經不只一次來請教您齁"},{"start":67.092,"end":78.741,"text":"整體的這個農退儲金的覆蓋率到現在其實相對還是偏低這個實際的我們現在的農民有資格的農民大概是22.3萬實際參與的人數大概是9.2萬這個覆蓋率差不多41%"},{"start":84.185,"end":112.31,"text":"但是青農的覆蓋率只有24%更低 24%那我們也多次在討論到底為什麼青農不願意加入這個農退儲金是因為誘因不夠嗎還是他們覺得擔心這個資金被卡死還是他認為其實我現在可能還用不到這個還要等到65歲以後那或許他有參加其他的這些儲金制度他有參加其他的保險你們到底有沒有去總"},{"start":114.811,"end":128.263,"text":"總納規劃一下或者是說在跟這些青農座談的時候有沒有去了解一下為什麼他們不願意來加入所謂的農退儲金我跟委員報告我們也做過了一些問卷那特別是青農的部分"},{"start":128.743,"end":153.429,"text":"那有兩個最重要的原因第一個原因就是說他們剛剛進到這個農業的職場的時候其實收入不是那麼穩定所以收入不是那麼穩定的時候他們每一個月繳的部分還有貸款的部分所以他們對於那個繳的那個壓力比較大倒是對於後面的這個保障他們比較沒有因為那是幾十年以後的事情他們比較沒有那麼在意"},{"start":153.749,"end":169.156,"text":"好如果是說他們對於要繳的金額跟這個誘因所以部長如果是這樣我們今天有幾位委員提出來的版本大概就是我們希望能夠做一些結構上的調整"},{"start":169.676,"end":188.69,"text":"比如說農業部採取百分之40或者是農民60或者是農業部60 農民40我們現在是50 50政府就是相對提撥如果把政府提撥的比例再提高一些農民只要負擔40"},{"start":190.871,"end":215.278,"text":"這個是不是也是行政院研議的方向我想這個我們有很多的委員大概是這個方向去進行包括這個我們的主席跟蔡議員還有本席我們大概都希望往這個方向去推動行政院到底你們的方向是什麼我跟委員說明就是其實農業部在規劃跟行政院報告的時候也是用這樣的一個方式就是從政府原來跟農民的提撥對等的提撥變成"},{"start":216.334,"end":224.803,"text":"政府提拨多一点大概是60左右然后农民大概是40左右让农民在每个月提小的时候减少一些负担保障不变"},{"start":225.663,"end":251.031,"text":"好 如果是提交 如果是這個方向基本上本席也會支持啦另外一個就是說有沒有可能把這個有參加農退儲金的這一些列為我們在未來 譬如說他們申請農機啦或者是肥料啦補助上面的加分門檻其實也是創造創造你要申請這一些補助我其實要看你有沒有加入農退儲金"},{"start":252.071,"end":274.015,"text":"也是創造一個誘因啦有沒有有沒有想過可以做這樣的 我想謝謝委員的一個建議我覺得是一個很好的方法我們過去很多補助的話沒有做做串聯啦就是我們有一些農業的施政的一些提供一些補助的部分跟可能跟政策可能要對接所以像你剛才講的就是說如果他在農民退休除菌的時候他的"},{"start":274.615,"end":291.475,"text":"整個的一個補助的比例或是可以做某個程度的調整的話可以增加他們的優因這個我們會來思考如果是這樣部長我希望行政院這個能夠趕快你們的院會能夠趕快處理因為這件事情我們已經談很久了"},{"start":292.236,"end":309.216,"text":"包括立法院要求農業部趕緊送版本出來到現在還卡在行政院裡頭剛剛主席也特別問了到底行政院什麼時候要送今天排審這個案子其實也是要給你們一點壓力如果行政院院版不趕快送上來的話這個老農今天的討論"},{"start":309.957,"end":335.857,"text":"退休儲金的討論還是遙遙無期沒有落實的一天我想這件事情可能要請農業部能夠加緊那我知道我們今天的質詢我想行政院院長應該也聽得到如果可以的話是不是能夠在這個禮拜四排入行政院院會趕緊把行政院的版本送進來讓行政院的版本可以跟委員的版本併案做討論部長另外我想要再跟您討論一個老農津貼排富的問題"},{"start":336.838,"end":362.419,"text":"這件事情其實我想相對也是困擾你們這個排富的門檻民國100年的標準到現在已經10多年沒有調整那這10多年來這個土地的地價飛漲但是排富的標準一直維持在10幾年前你相對來講對於這些老農來說他的生活環境並沒有改善"},{"start":363.28,"end":370.386,"text":"但是不過因為公告地價的上漲而造成他達到了這個所謂帳面上超過500萬這樣的一個門檻"},{"start":373.869,"end":398.36,"text":"這個東西其實對老農來說 他是看得到吃不到啦他不過就是因為土地價值的增值可是他土地沒有賣 他其實也沒有任何收入的增加但是我們的排富條款定在那裡 它是一個死的東西造成很多的農民因為排富條款而沒有辦法領老農津貼所以這個我們也提出了提案的修法我也想知道到底農業部的看法是什麼"},{"start":398.963,"end":425.313,"text":"我跟委員報告 事實上在老農經貼的部分其實我們跟退休族群都已經跟院長報告過了特別針對排富的部分因為我們過去在額度上面都會4年跟著CPI調可是其他的完全沒有去調整所以這一次我們在設計上面也會根據地價的增幅的部分 CLV的部分因為它從100年到現在已經增加了將近70%大概67%左右"},{"start":427.734,"end":452.039,"text":"所以我們會一併做這樣的一個思考然後特別是對農民所擁有的房屋我一直認為農民擁有的房屋是他一輩子努力的他跟其他的民眾是不一樣所以我們在這裡也做了一些放寬跟跟排富的那個有大幅的一個放寬那這個部分我想我也希望說院裡面能夠盡快的進到院會以後我們就可以送到立法院來"},{"start":452.813,"end":470.028,"text":"那這個部分的進度現在在哪裡在你們農業部還是已經送到行政院兩個都已經送到行政院去了但是因為行政院在考量不只是老農經貸還有其他的社福基金所以這個部分我們盡量說老農經貸是不是先走"},{"start":470.729,"end":491.826,"text":"是 因为这个农民其实是最弱势的很多对农民来讲土地价格飙涨公告地价的涨其实不是老农愿意的那因为这个涨幅过高涨幅太高了而且我们十几年没有调整反而造成它被排富排掉这个对老农来讲真是情何以堪所以部长我也期许啊"},{"start":493.126,"end":511.677,"text":"這兩個案子是不是都能夠去加速希望能夠去督促我們的行政院是不是這個禮拜可以趕快送進院會排入行政院院會然後把他送出送到立法院來我會再跟行政院報告看可不可以有沒有辦法證據到排入院會OK 好 謝謝好 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但是我今天的主題我問問 按一下好不好好不好 我來談一下"},{"start":93.976,"end":116.494,"text":"今年開始台灣已經進入高齡化的一個社會 超高齡所以我們在看整個的一個詐欺詐騙受害人數我們65歲以下長者大概佔7.5看起來不是特別的高但是未來隨著超高齡化快速的推進"},{"start":117.615,"end":145.202,"text":"對於高齡化的一個詐欺的案件我覺得有必要把它單獨拿出來去看那我們來看從2022年到今年的1到9月很明顯看到在我們警政署的一個統計65歲以上詐騙被害的人數是不斷的攀高我個人認為這個幅度會不斷的去增加因為這些的長輩65歲很多都退休"},{"start":146.042,"end":165.59,"text":"那因為退休拚了一輩子自己存了一些錢甚至有一些退休金一輩子的夢想就是好好來養老所以這邊報章特別寫這個可能會超過5兆的老人家的養老資金現在非常可能是一個詐團"},{"start":167.671,"end":184.186,"text":"基於的對象那這個部分我想請問一下主委你們對於這種高齡化這樣的一個趨勢這樣的一個防詐 堵詐在你們的一個作為上面你有什麼看法好 各位報告我們是在堵詐 懲詐 防詐"},{"start":187.349,"end":199.342,"text":"這塊事實上這邊是跨機關合作包括NCC包括內政部其實都有做相關的一些宣導包括簡訊的一些推播發送那剛剛委員提到說這個我們針對的高齡"},{"start":202.345,"end":215.281,"text":"族群這一塊的部分那兩年前三年前這個很多國際來化詐騙那一塊我們就用對一般民眾最有感覺的方式用語音警訊IVR的方式來處理那這一塊我們施行之後這塊的國際來化來詐騙設在了立刻"},{"start":219.281,"end":238.966,"text":"斷言就掉下去了這邊我都持續處理那另外我們電信業者這邊我們知道一般高齡化的人即便是他用的是功能手機那如果說他用的一些網路上的東西他其實目前普遍信息性不高但是我們有要求電信業者在他的門市裡頭在售理"},{"start":241.126,"end":263.242,"text":"辦相關業務的時候要如果是年輕大的就請他順便做這個市詐房詐賭詐的一些宣導也讓他們有所安心因為一般民眾我只要到了電信的門市那邊通常會有一個信任感那不管是他對櫃檯人員的相關的一些宣導還有他當地這些一些標語小冊子這些我們都來持續處理"},{"start":265.224,"end":284.885,"text":"主委你剛剛講了包括了你們所謂的這幾年推動的很多包括次數 件數正好你有看到我們這個審計部的一個報告一三年度預算的一個審計報告裡面特別提到就是NCC的一個部分高齡防詐的政策"},{"start":285.706,"end":302.402,"text":"我們審計部的報告特別講說你們還主要停留在宣導活動你們主要在我們的報告甚至過去的美式專案的部分大部分都說我有多少場次人次教材提供哪些比較新穎的教材"},{"start":303.163,"end":327.097,"text":"可是我覺得審計部報告講得很有道理那對於這種投入性的指標但是真正反映這個阻攔的一個電話的次數跟阻詐的一個金額剛剛看到人數不斷的一個增加他是希望希望你們對於這些老人家可能認知能力的衰退跟他的資產過度集中能不能提供具體科技化"},{"start":327.757,"end":346.318,"text":"可操作的保護機制這是審計部我也覺得他說的蠻有道理但對於審計部這樣的一個問題提出來這樣一個問題你有沒有什麼解方各位報告其實審計部這塊我們的想法就是說除了宣導之外另外是減少這個高齡人口"},{"start":347.719,"end":372.355,"text":"炸的風險的露出的一些部位那很簡單來講那以往很多是透過簡訊那在簡訊有分成兩個部分一個是商業簡訊我們所謂的A to B那一塊我們已經在差不多一年半以前都已經開始在上路怎麼處理只要簡訊商業簡訊裡頭有網址連結的有電話號碼的一律砍一把砍掉除非說他有經過特殊認證過他是開白名單方式處理"},{"start":372.975,"end":388.488,"text":"那一般如果是個人造團他打算透過一般的電話一般的電話的警訊來傳的我們也有對行為模式的管制一天超過幾折了我們會把他停掉叫他回來KYC那他不敢回來通常有些東西那他就是涉詐這一塊都有來處理"},{"start":390.229,"end":416.724,"text":"那另外高齡的部分社債很多都也是投資剛剛陳主委員所講這一塊那我們也有跟這個跨機關來合作那透過這個社債電話部分連結到相關速發部他所小管的一些電商平台把那些透過這些電話號碼社債電話號碼所申請到的帳號都砍掉這些我們目前都持續在做的事情好 主委好"},{"start":417.925,"end":446.013,"text":"我覺得現在因為蠻多的長輩還是靠電話這個工具不管是有時候家用電話雖然越來越少但是還是蠻多長者在用家用電話的第二個當然是手機所以電話的詐騙還是高齡者主要受害的媒介那我們在想能不能加諸我們現在的業者剛剛有一些方面你們已經在做了嘛國際電話來會提醒嘛有一些部分已經在做了那我們看各國這也是我們審計部"},{"start":447.113,"end":465.833,"text":"他列出來的主要的一個部分他就日本的部分他能夠裝防騷擾的一個設備就簡單來講事實上我們也可以打給電信公司叫他設定什麼可是對於長輩來說如果設定非常非常複雜你要播什麼他們不見得會所以他特別來有這種安裝防騷擾的一個設備針對於你要"},{"start":470.398,"end":496.935,"text":"國際電話不明電話你要拒接或者直接設定你的電話成為語音信箱我覺得怎麼把它簡化現在看起來現在電話都有這些設備但是長輩不見得會用那當然我們看到這個澳洲的一個部分是針對一樣就剛剛講說打詐一個團隊任何人發現要及時那及時通報給友軍如果沒有及時的話會有罰則但因為我們覺得在台灣大部分是"},{"start":497.896,"end":520.928,"text":"主張業者自律勸導輔導這個部分那新加坡的這個部分也是有很多包括英國甚至有講說如果透過你已經認證的機制造成的詐騙業者都要去損失賠償那我想最後一個問題請教我們對於現在的一個電線業者因為他畢竟在第一線有一些作為但是在責任的部分能不能賦予他們多一點"},{"start":521.748,"end":539.221,"text":"有了其實這個當初國際做法我們在當初討論當初討論的時候其實是在打造條例還沒制定前制定之後其實業者有相對的義務那打造條例17 18特定18那這一塊那如果他沒有做的話業者是會被重罰的那一樣的如果一次涉詐打造條例17條跟打造條例14條部分我們都會"},{"start":543.324,"end":560.824,"text":"會通知他某種程度地心葉子也是我們打造的有菌我們通知他說這個你該處理了我們又透過這個類似的軟法透過這個修正這個地形化契約來只要他針對異常的化物的部分他得停止或斷化目前都有一些在處理"},{"start":561.445,"end":573.136,"text":"那另外剛剛委員提到說對高齡人要有有感的部分我們針對前一陣子很多危險來話事話也好我們也要求業者明年5月以前都要做語音警示"},{"start":574.434,"end":601.58,"text":"好了 我想今天最主要是我們希望能夠業者的一個責任也能夠比較國際下強化他不是順便在旁邊幫忙我們有幫忙算加分沒幫忙不扣分我覺得要加出他責任畢竟他們在第一線很多人騙東騙西騙了這麼多他也沒有被刪掉然後後面接電話沒被提醒我都覺得這是業者可以加強的請你們待會去研究會 我們會持續努力 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"166235","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166235","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3f4bdaeede0058f0cb5dd3a7969bdec96955b66d75a5d5968a3edfb217b8fd1275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:29:44 - 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再有請陳代理主委陳代理主委請"},{"start":11.286,"end":34.283,"text":"委員好主委好所以今天委員會排審衛星廣播電視法的修正案超越委員共同都提出了多個版本顯示一個共同的焦慮我們的廣電監理制度已經到了不得不修的地步了那本席今天也引用學界今年座談會的研討內容以及各政黨團的修法重點就叫足為幾個核心的問題首先針對換照制度還有執照的期限"},{"start":37.265,"end":54.574,"text":"主委NCC總是宣稱換照是為了把關內容品質但學者林立宇前NCC委員他在論壇上公開承認NCC的審查標準不明確那目前最大的問題是什麼就是好壞都是由NCC說了算"},{"start":55.895,"end":71.65,"text":"當評鑑的標準充滿主觀的內控機制還有營運計畫執行情形等字眼的時候換照就變成讓媒體聽話的緊箍咒那NCC想砍向誰就砍向誰那如果前委員都覺得標準像迷霧的話那請主委說明業者要如何適從呢"},{"start":72.8,"end":92.048,"text":"看完報告其實我們重大的案件深色評鑑換照其實都前置程序委員會議之前有專家協助還有公民團體的組成的諮詢會議來審議其實這意見是多元來呈現來把關的那重大的案件根據我們組織法還可以舉行聽證會"},{"start":94.249,"end":121.361,"text":"大家關心的就是個案上的其實當初也有舉行過聽證會其實就是說並不是NCC委員會自己門關起來就來做決定其實都有參採多元的意見來處理所以您說多元意見嗎那許多學者都批評你們的審查不透明然後理由也讓業者困惑的時候你們還是要堅持現行的換照機制嗎那這樣子專業的監理嗎還是為了保有生殺大權呢"},{"start":122.266,"end":149.703,"text":"沒有就當初其實NCC本身也是這個依法行政當初的立法的制度賦予NCC在這個框架上來執行那我們就是依法行政來純粹是來處理那當然這個衛廣法18條本身的換照也有規定一些程序那對這次的修法那許多委員都主張將執照換成永久有效嘛還有自動續照那除非有重大違法才撤照或是審查那您的態度是"},{"start":150.636,"end":172.453,"text":"我的看法就是其實委員提案版本有七年的也有九年的也有無窮期的那剛剛其他委員有提到其實各國的環境不一樣那台灣有台灣自己的這個當初立法的歷史脈絡那大家的各個國情不一樣那當初既然我們的衛廣法是長成這樣子一定有當初大家"},{"start":173.053,"end":197.495,"text":"社會各界的共同共識的一個期待的一個方式我們一直在討論審查嘛除了這個審查的迷霧之外還缺乏退場機制的問題那文化大學的柯智順副教授也指出問題在於進場容易他的進場他進場容易可是他後門緊閉缺乏缺乏合理的退場機制那讓換照變成唯一的你們的一個武器嘛那主委那針對這個問題"},{"start":200.738,"end":222.108,"text":"剛剛報告我剛剛聽到主委您報告說您有提到平埔是稀有的資源沒錯吧對那是五廣法裡頭會用到無限電比例那是稀有資源所以一般而言是五廣那邊的管制密度會比較高一點所以主委您也提到公益性嘛那您一直拿這個公益性來當擋箭牌如果現行的換照制度真的有效那為什麼行政院多次判決NCC在中天"},{"start":224.068,"end":242.214,"text":"跟我們報告26件處分裡頭其實很多目前NCC敗訴是7件26件只敗訴7件其實這比例並不是這個這個某些媒體這個重複算不同審計的結果的那種結果是不一樣的"},{"start":242.956,"end":252.241,"text":"其實本席的問題很簡單就是如果你們沒有辦法提出一套量化然後還有客觀不看顏色的審查標準那立法院為什麼要給你們每六年一次的看守媒體的權利"},{"start":254.281,"end":282.961,"text":"各位報告剛剛提到退場機制其實我們NCC過往其實這方面願意申請這個微信頻道目前微信頻道總共有298家願意來申請的其實如果市場的力量可以決定他要不要繼續在這個這個場域裡頭這個賽道裡頭繼續玩下去其實有些過往也有一些新聞台他申請到了可是他沒有露出的平台他後來自己他也繳為執照他也不要了所以其實NCC是開放的"},{"start":283.781,"end":295.072,"text":"主委您認為今天委員所提出的版本這些版本的內容是完善的嗎我覺得都有可取之處但是都有觀察關注比較沒有關注到的一個面向"},{"start":295.748,"end":319.25,"text":"那NCC會不會也提出一個自己的版本然後再送進來委員會我們希望可以但是因為我們目前沒有委員會所以行政院的版本是沒辦法您都會提到委員人數不足的問題難道你們就不用再回去然後也自己提出一個版本嗎什麼都要等到委員數足了之後才來做嗎跟委員報告官方的對案我們是沒有但是我們幕僚座位其實都準備好了"},{"start":320.1,"end":342.657,"text":"好 那主委我們再來討論那針對媒體金流移植的問題我們一直在盯著誰持有媒體股份卻忽略了金流才是真正的控制者那學者有痛批首長的新聞幾乎都是買來的那師大的一名鍾啟輝教授也指出這是尋逐型的正媒關係那現在政府不必違法去投資媒體只要通過龐大的宣傳標案就能讓媒體變乖"},{"start":343.738,"end":370.291,"text":"那我們也看到這次黨團還有委員有提出修正案的版本要求強制揭露政府採購補助還有廣告的收入這可能都是切中要害的災壓劑那主委剛剛也有委員提到那NCC整天查黨政軍一股都不能持有那對於政府一年砸了十幾億的預算給特定的電視台做廣編還有宣導甚至新聞置入NCC你們自己本身有沒有掌握"},{"start":371.454,"end":398.589,"text":"坑委報告分兩個部分政府的標案相關政府他是用採購法他依循採購法那他標案給新聞媒體新聞媒體本身其實就是政府就是預算法62條之一其實有已經有規範白話來講簡單來講是說某家電視台他受政府他接到政府的標案那某個政府他必須在那個政府的官網揭露說我我我我對誰補責所以NCC都有掌握什麼這個"},{"start":401.151,"end":406.355,"text":"這個我們都有掌握我們都有掌握那請問每年政府編的宣導費有多少流入固定的媒體請主委說明"},{"start":407.84,"end":431.253,"text":"這個在那個主地總署的官網有統合整個東西那個別政府採購法或標出去給相關媒體在各個機關都會有官網必須要揭露這些在採購法60條之一都已經規範了另外有黨團黨團跟委員提案來增訂公開發行的義務機揭露政府標案收入NCC你們的態度是什麼"},{"start":431.533,"end":455.734,"text":"我們基本看法是這樣的因為該提案的是參考是有限油管法油管法的其實他是大資本然後他當初也是對土稀對一般消費者來收拾費用那跟衛管幾乎是99%是土逼他是對平台的一些處理那太陽不一樣規模不一樣營業模式也不一樣那我們覺得說是否要比照這個"},{"start":457.175,"end":464,"text":"來達到他對這個新聞品質的把關是不是符合比例原則是不是適當我們覺得這個可以討論"},{"start":466.014,"end":492.077,"text":"主委您剛剛有提到因為規範有要揭露那是標案的履約管理那這是不是NCC的職權呢預算法裡頭要揭露是預算法的規定預算法主管機關他的規定任何政府機關他有標案給媒體來標他自己的官網要公佈這些我標出去的那些那NCC有沒有另外在做管理"},{"start":493.506,"end":509.078,"text":"這邊我們有做一些基本的一些觀察所以說這是不是雙標因為黨政居持股你們就說會影響媒體的獨立性可是政府用上億的標案來餵養媒體成為媒體的衣食父母你們說你們有一些管理到底是有沒有"},{"start":509.298,"end":525.504,"text":"我們意思是說這一塊因為是有採購法跟預算法來把關那政府的行政要講究效能不可能因為其他機關有在做我們又重複在做一樣事情這個對民眾期待政府要有效率這邊應該是相對的必須要符合這個原則的"},{"start":526.653,"end":544.097,"text":"OK好謝謝主委說明那今天本席是針對換照的制度希望NCC能夠主動的來做出改革那第二針對媒體的金流那如果不揭露那就是政府的合法政治收買那也請NCC這邊也主動去了解好嗎好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17103","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17103","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685ac324107c9b9b84ec8d57d4fb8c01030b4456b5c46cbb78c2e5a630dc7fea84b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查\n一、行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二、委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n四、委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n五、委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n六、委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n七、委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n八、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n九、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十、委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十一、委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十二、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十三、委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十四、委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十五、委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十六、委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十七、委員游顥等17人擬具「兒童托育多元服務法草案」案。\n十八、委員范雲等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十九、委員李彥秀等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十一、委員張雅琳等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十二、委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等26人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十四、委員陳菁徽等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十五、委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十六、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十七、委員劉建國等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十八、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十九、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-08T08:35:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-08T17:30:00+08:00","duration":32067,"影片長度":"08:54:27","委員發言時間":"08:35:33 - 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依照委員劉建國等十六人提案及仲裁各委員意見修正通過"},{"start":1636.974,"end":1665.695,"text":"第十一條至第十六條照委員劉建國等十六人提案通過第十八條至第二十一條照委員劉建國等十六人提案通過第二十二條依照委員劉建國等十六人提案委員林月琴修正建議仲裁各委員意見修正通過第二十三條照委員劉建國等十六人提案通過第四章張明照委員劉建國等十六人提案通過勞動部現場要求將下列一及二"},{"start":1666.556,"end":1685.055,"text":"一及二部分請詳書面並同第24條及第25條審查經召委詢問現場委員無異議後並同審查第24條依照委員劉建國等16人提案修正通過第25條至第28條召委員劉建國等16人提案通過不予採納"},{"start":1686.636,"end":1703.259,"text":"一委員侯孟楷等21人委員羅廷輝等20人委員楊崇英等19人委員萬美玲等16人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人及委員林倩琦等21人提案第4條條文二委員廖偉祥等25人提案第二章至第5章章名及第7章章名"},{"start":1704.02,"end":1727.495,"text":"三委員紅夢凱等21人委員羅廷輝等20人委員楊從英等19人委員張家駿等16人委員劉建國等17人及委員林建啟等21人提案第6條條文委員羅志強等19人提案第5條條文四台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉明等16人委員王宏威等20人委員黃建豪等17人委員徐宇貞等23人委員徐曉清等17人及委員盧憲義等16人提案第6條條文"},{"start":1728.616,"end":1757.655,"text":"委員萬美玲等十六人提案第八條條文委員李昆城等二十一人提案第四條條文委員羅志強等十九人提案第十條條文五委員侯孟卡等二十一人委員羅廷威等二十人委員楊從英等十九人委員張家俊等十六人委員劉建國等十七人及委員林倩琦等二十一人提案第八條條文台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等十六人委員王宏威等二十人委員黃靜豪等十七人委員徐宇貞等二十三人委員徐巧欣等十七人及委員盧憲一等十六人提案第十條條文"},{"start":1758.856,"end":1787.525,"text":"委員萬美玲等十六人及委員羅志強等十九人提案第十四條條文六委員侯孟開等二十一人委員羅廷輝等二十人委員楊瓊英等十九人委員張家俊等十六人委員劉建國等十七人及委員林倩琦等二十一人提案第七條條文台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等十六人委員王宏威等二十人委員黃建豪等十七人委員徐宇貞等二十三人委員徐巧欣等十七人及委員盧憲一等十六人提案第九條條文委員萬美玲等十六人提案第二十"},{"start":1788.545,"end":1814.183,"text":"委員萬美玲等16人提案第11條條文委員羅志強等19人提案第13條條文7委員黃婕等16人提案第16條條文保留條文委員洪孟凱等21人台灣民眾黨黨團委員羅廷惟等20人委員王玉敏等16人委員王宏威等20人委員楊從英等19人民進黨黨團委員萬美玲等16人委員黃建豪等17人委員林月清等18人委員張家俊等16人委員徐宇珍等23人"},{"start":1815.484,"end":1841.254,"text":"委員范雲等十六人委員郭育晴等十六人委員林楚英等二十三人委員劉建國等十七人委員賴瑞榮等十八人委員林倩琦等二十一人委員李坤辰等二十一人委員王正旭等二十三人委員徐巧欣等十七人委員羅志強等十九人委員盧憲一等十六人委員廖偉祥等二十五人委員黃潔等十六人及委員劉建國等十六人提案法案名稱及第一條條文通過附帶決議六項宣讀完畢"},{"start":1844.098,"end":1866.857,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有那議事錄確定本日會議議程為繼續審查行政院函請審議委員分別凝聚兒童托育服務法草案等29案首先介紹在場委員及列席官員王振旭委員陳昭之委員廖偉祥委員"},{"start":1875.256,"end":1899.662,"text":"那在場的官員有衛生福利部的呃呂健德政務次長社家署的張美美副署長法規會的陳信成參事保護服務師的張靖倫專委醫事師的卓麗萍檢認激症國民健康署的健康婦呃婦幼健康組的張英純檢認激症"},{"start":1902.794,"end":1924.911,"text":"內政部護政師蘇志萌檢論視察警政署防治組的王玉峻專員消防署救災救護組代理科長莊念恩國土署建管組葉先鋒專員"},{"start":1930.914,"end":1948.565,"text":"財政部國有財產署的張翠芳副組長教育部國簽署的郭姿穎副組長法務部的汪南君參事經濟部人事處張雅慧專委勞動部勞動條件及就業平等師的顧家榮專委勞動福祉退休師李娟鳳專委"},{"start":1964.38,"end":1985.137,"text":"勞動關係師許瓊月專員金融監督管理委員會保險局的陳蘭君組長園民會的社會福利處的柯雪燕專委行政院人事總處給予福利處謝艾倫專委"},{"start":1989.827,"end":2011.396,"text":"各自保護委員會籌備處法制事務組陳錦怡科長先做以下說明本委員會先前已就兒童托育服務法草案等二十九案完成第一輪之主條審查經決議尚未審查完均"},{"start":2011.977,"end":2025.197,"text":"令則期繼續審查現就第一輪保留條文進行審查每條條文先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見那兒托法第一輪審查"},{"start":2026.997,"end":2045.424,"text":"疾病案審查一百三十三條張次等保留條文計五十九條現在進行本案保留條文逐條討論現在討論第二條條文我們來看我們的檢表那先請衛福部說明真點"},{"start":2050.706,"end":2067.511,"text":"主席各位委員 衛福部報告 第二針點的部分主要是希望是能夠增列相關目的事業主管機關辦理的事項我們衛福部的考量大概是第一個是因為我們的這個"},{"start":2069.992,"end":2091.326,"text":"而托的這個相關的單位其實是蠻清楚是有一些相關單位那我們在行政院的條文裡面第二項是有提到涉及的各目的事業主管機關的業務的時候各該機關應該要立刻要配合我們覺得這個部分應該是可以含括各目的事業主管機關的配合的這個事項"},{"start":2092.026,"end":2111.187,"text":"那各目的事业主管机关本来就有它主责的业务所以如果在这里其实我们在儿托法里面其实是儿权法里面其实是会有列出来各对于儿童权益相关的各目的事业主管机关的这个他们应该要配合的事项所以我们觉得在儿托法这里其实"},{"start":2112.328,"end":2136.625,"text":"建議是可以遵照就是建議可以參照行政院的這個版本就是我們綜合的來談只要涉及到各目的事業主管機關的業務的時候他們就應該要配合以上這樣以簡化我們一些相關的文字以上報告好這邊是建議照行政院版本提案通過那其他委員要不要表示意見"},{"start":2144.617,"end":2169.742,"text":"沒有意見的話我們就按照行政院那個行政院版通過好那接下來審查第三條"},{"start":2172.845,"end":2183.101,"text":"還有修正動議第八那一樣的請我們的衛福部說明那個針點"},{"start":2186.607,"end":2207.51,"text":"好先說明增點的部分是委員建議是要新增由縣市主管機關聘僱居家托育提供公共化的居家托育服務以及希望在第九款互助式的這個托育機構考量這個偏鄉跟離島的特性要收託對象要混合的收託"},{"start":2208.631,"end":2228.246,"text":"那衛福部的另外就是替代性照顧政策的這三個部分那衛福部的考量大概是替代性照顧政策的定義我們在兒少權法裡面其實會明定那希望能夠在兒少權法裡面來處理替代性的照顧政策"},{"start":2228.786,"end":2254.831,"text":"那第二個是針對於公共的托育的這個部分因為我們目前的行政部門並沒有就是僱用這個公共的保姆所以我們還是建議我們大部分在縣市裡面我們現在目前國家推動的是準公共化的這個政策所以我們也希望是按照行政院的這個版本那另外一個就是對於偏鄉的這個混零收拖的部分那我們本來是在"},{"start":2256.431,"end":2283.448,"text":"院版的第20條裡面其實就有提到的偏鄉還有離島的地區它是可以放寬收拖的到六歲這樣子其實是混也就是實質上是可以混零收拖的以上說明這邊也是建議照行政院提案通過那各委員請表示意見"},{"start":2286.642,"end":2299.525,"text":"林淑芬委員這一條我們要討論的就是說定點的零拖這個名詞要不要定義定點的零拖"},{"start":2307.489,"end":2317.578,"text":"因為後面有一些就是說談到定點零拖那也會談到一些責任所以是不是需要講清楚一下需要"},{"start":2320.978,"end":2343.665,"text":"是不是請衛福部先做說明臨時托育的定義跟委員報告我們其實托育的型態其實它有很多元老有日間的夜間的全日的那另外就是有零托那這個我們會在授權執法裡面把它定義清楚那你少子女化對策也有定點零托那我們可不可以"},{"start":2347.046,"end":2360.349,"text":"立法說明欄裡面對於就是要求要對臨時托育的定義要在相關的執法裡面要談清楚這樣子好好不好好那就是造型正願版通過應該要加一點文字說明立法說明欄裡面"},{"start":2377.287,"end":2391.262,"text":"好 那立法說明就請衛福部 剛剛參與我們署分委員的意見 要把那個臨時拖曳的那個臨時拖曳那邊 把他提起主席 不好意思"},{"start":2414.016,"end":2432.382,"text":"那請王委員第三條裡面有關於這個行政原版的部分好像零拖的部分雖然剛剛蘇分委員有提到是還沒有非常的清楚"},{"start":2432.862,"end":2449.65,"text":"是不是這邊可以 雖然已經把各個狀況都有寫入了可是有關的連託的部分是不是還請主管機關在這邊再確認一下有關的連託的部分是要怎麼方式來入法 以上"},{"start":2453.803,"end":2480.991,"text":"好衛福部說明那因為我們的托育服務的型態其實它非常多元它有日間托育夜間托育前日托那零托也是其中一個部分那所以我們會在而托法通過之後的授權執法裡面明定托育服務的型態當然包括臨時托育這個部分也包括剛剛那個署分委員剛剛提到的這個定點零托我們其實會在授權執法裡面把它寫得比較清楚那"},{"start":2481.431,"end":2502.589,"text":"在這個第三條裡面我們會在說明欄裡面把它做一些說明對 做一些補充趙委員剛剛的做一些補充會列在我們的授權辦法裡面去處理那立法說明裡面會把連託這一部分您剛剛所提到對 我們會寫在這一條的說明欄裡面把這個委員剛剛提的意見註記上去好 謝謝"},{"start":2504.69,"end":2525.297,"text":"好 請陳委員 完了之後再請楊委員謝謝主席 我想再確認一次因為本法適用的是托育那過去我們覺得托育對象一般來說是未滿兩歲的嬰兒我是只是再做個確認那這邊的院版就定義兒童是未滿12歲之人這個跟我們很多包括在醫療界的定義都不一樣所以我想再確認一下未滿12歲"},{"start":2527.438,"end":2545.758,"text":"為什麼有這麼大的範圍是不是請魏婆婆再說明一下 謝謝好 那跟委員報告我們的托育機構或者是大部分收托的是未滿兩歲的那可是因為我們保母可以照顧的年齡是到12歲所以我們這邊的定義兒童就是未滿12歲以下的"},{"start":2548.301,"end":2572.832,"text":"謝謝那這樣就是我們有很多法定義的兒童年齡都不一樣目前在兒權法裡面定義兒童就是未滿12歲兒少法裡面其實定義的就是醫療法或是健保全部都不一樣我今天就是做個確認我也確認一下就是互助式托育機構我們現在是改成6歲以下第九款"},{"start":2577.17,"end":2579.904,"text":"互助是我們應該是偏鄉里島是可以收"},{"start":2583.795,"end":2606.609,"text":"跟委員說明我們在上一次的院版的第20條已經有增加戶住離島偏鄉原住民地區的戶住室托育可以提供到未滿6歲的孩子的服務因為離島偏鄉其實在土地取得跟人員的培育上其實是相對困難的所以確定嗎確定在20條有訂好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":2612.756,"end":2614.237,"text":"那再請林書文抱歉我現在搞清楚就是說我們的定點零拖並不是相對於日拖或夜拖我們的定點零拖是相對於這個在宅服務或者是機構服務所以這個是這樣的概念出來的"},{"start":2635.845,"end":2654.458,"text":"那所以我們在載服務這個機構服務之外的定點零拖應該要講清楚所以他的相對概念不是日拖和夜拖所以需要在母法裡面這個再討論一下我們這一條是不是可以這個保留一下"},{"start":2658.417,"end":2672.427,"text":"對 衛福部說明剛剛有提到是說托育的型態當然是日托跟訂零托是不一樣不過零托它其實是可以是保姆到家裡去零托也可以是訂點零托所以零托也有不同的型態"},{"start":2673.448,"end":2696.95,"text":"不是啦對啦那我們在講零託的這個形態會有牽扯到這個權責嘛所以我們在定點零託要是屬於新興的這個照顧的形態那如果你要針對這樣的一個照顧你會有權利義務關係的規定那我們想在這個法的定義裡面講清楚這樣子"},{"start":2699.389,"end":2725.618,"text":"我們每一個托育的型態都也都有權利義務的關係對啊所以你們有有定義啊所以我們在授權辦法裡面會定跟委員報告是我們在講這裡是講的機構機構和這個在宅以外的這個零托啊你先保留好了主席好那麼這個就先保留你說你說"},{"start":2728.809,"end":2753.63,"text":"委員我可以說明一下請說明不管是托育機構或者是居家的托育我們都有分全日托育 日間托育 半日托育跟臨時托育也就是說這兩類我一直在講你們為什麼都聽不懂這不是相對日間或者是夜間這個叫做定點臨托也不是到保母家也不是到機構你們隨時在那個可能會設置的定點臨托"},{"start":2755.091,"end":2775.842,"text":"不是保姆家也不是家長家也不是托嬰中心也不是日托也不是夜托所以我們在講定點臨托為什麼定義是因為這個因素你們一直把我跟日托夜托到保姆家照顧叫臨托我們在講的是定點臨托所以這新的托育的型態而且你們已經有幾個點在運作了"},{"start":2778.763,"end":2797.718,"text":"所以要管理臨時的托育服務就要先定義這個臨時托育是什麼還有場地也沒有規定這個定點您托裡面這個是你們少子女化2.0的政策推動的亮點各縣市政府辦的不是保姆也不是機構"},{"start":2799.139,"end":2827.716,"text":"那如果你們要推動這個定點零拖讓家長更有彈性那你對定點零拖叫你們定一個定義你們為什麼要跟日拖夜拖扯在一起它也不是日拖夜拖的相對型態它也不是在宅或機構中心的相對型態這裡處理的不是這種概念我一直講不是這種概念你們鼓勵地方政府設定點零拖"},{"start":2828.777,"end":2842.006,"text":"他就不是機構也不是保姆家對不對所以在講要想是因為這樣子的概念你們還在說日拖夜拖還在說在宅或者是中心"},{"start":2843.748,"end":2866.819,"text":"我們是不是可以讓主管機關更完整的說明因為他剛才說到一半再繼續把你們完整的概念把他講完好不好看現在跟那個委員的那個不同的那個觀點在哪裡因為即使是定點零拖我想要去執行零拖的人員也不外乎是保姆或機構"},{"start":2868.88,"end":2889.222,"text":"不然還有第三種人那定點零拖的場所要怎麼管理那當然不是中心要怎麼管理你們可不可以完整的把它講一下現在淑芬委員一直覺得定點零拖它的執行的人員跟它的方式會跟你們現在所定義的這些是完全不同的所以他認為應該要有一個有可能是服務外送出去定點那個地方啊"},{"start":2890.023,"end":2916.56,"text":"他會覺得他很特殊啦那你們覺得其實他還是在整體托育的一環為什麼就是你們把他解釋的更清楚好不好跟委員說明我們定點零托就是臨時托育的一種類型那我們現在是依居托的辦法讓他在固定的工友場子可以設定點零托讓家長有需要的時候就可以去"},{"start":2917.561,"end":2936.145,"text":"有需要的時候就可以去使用所以我們現在那些場址都是公有場址那運用的人員也都是具有合格資格的居家托育人員那所以他的規範都在現在的法規的基礎下去做執行那以上說明"},{"start":2938.655,"end":2966.658,"text":"所以你們現在的那個相關的辦法裡面針對定點零拖他的人員場所你們是有一套辦法的有運作的規則的有很清楚的運作規則人員的話就一定是要領那個居家托育服務登記證的保姆就是合格的居托人員才可以那地點的部分我們目前籌設的都是公有的場地那公有的場地其實相關公安都有一些相關的規定"},{"start":2969.904,"end":2990.669,"text":"來 請林委員我想 署任委員會這樣提的確你們現在的那個定點零拖雖然有規定說要照顧孩子的人是誰可是場域的一些規範事實上我們沒有在母法裡面看得比較多很清楚那你現在事實上是放在你們的計畫裡面"},{"start":2992.99,"end":3013.468,"text":"那就變成說我們到底那個場域的一些像逃生相關的有的甚至在我們的所謂的居福中心那甚至有的事實上是在哪些場域這場域事實上是沒有一些比較清楚的都一直在講公有可是我不認為公有的你所有搭配的到底真的就是做得很好嗎"},{"start":3014.148,"end":3022.034,"text":"所以我才會 我相信淑恩委員會這樣提所以要請你們真的是講清楚否則的話就應該是要定在無法裡面去做考慮 以上沒有啦 我再補充一下啦我給大家說明 因為大家都聽不懂嘛那我的意思是說它就不是在宅 也不是在中心或機構裡面縣市政府辦這個定點零託是第三種類型政府指定地點"},{"start":3042.048,"end":3064.533,"text":"那委託團體或居家托育服務辦理那各縣市的運作類型有下面兩種就是說我去找一個親子館或社福中心現在也有其他縣市是私人就來申請說我的私人場所就要做這個定點零拖也可以但是說我這個場所都合格的我就不用任何規範我都不用任何那個了"},{"start":3064.973,"end":3069.777,"text":"合格就沒問題了那我們在規範這個中心托嬰中心要比一般的消防安全合格還要更高的安全標準是什麼意義第二個他僱用這個全職人力合格人力那我們為什麼在機構裡面或中心裡面對人力不是只有合格的要求而已包括保姆在宅的時候我們對臨時有事去上廁所去買東西為什麼還要做規範"},{"start":3094.677,"end":3117.285,"text":"所以這個定點零拖的狀況其實很多但如果管理托育的品質還有辦理的資格在法律上的這個切身都未明那各縣市的做法也不一所以因為這種狀況裡面我舉個例子有些縣市就規定定點零拖要有方式以確保品質有一些根本就沒有"},{"start":3117.865,"end":3139.297,"text":"那目前我跟他講你一直講說是公有的這個既有的社會福利的一個社會福利的圖書館或什麼的或者是一個什麼空間然後就來定點零拖了可是呢是不是公有場址就都沒問題有消防安全合格就都沒問題我不知道另外我跟他講新北現在也有私人場地申請定點零拖"},{"start":3141.678,"end":3157.91,"text":"那定点临托的媒合有两种一个是委托定点临托有两种有的是委托单位去经营有的是媒合保姆管理的监督的机制不明有的县市有访试有的县市不用"},{"start":3158.67,"end":3173.103,"text":"所以並不是說保姆都合格就好了我的場地都符合消防安全就好了這樣我們托嬰中心還需要省多嚴格那我保姆的在宅服務為什麼還要在羅利巴索的管理一大堆保姆出去的話要怎麼樣保姆臨時有事要怎麼樣為什麼還要這樣子管理"},{"start":3179.168,"end":3206.401,"text":"所以在这里我一直讲说这个定点宁多是新兴的而且不是机构也不是个人在宅这种东西我们各县市做法不一因为各县市做法不一所以我们要统一规定照顾比要不要规定托育人员的受雇性质要不要规定环境的安全规范要不要比只是这种整栋建筑安全消防及格就好了"},{"start":3207.942,"end":3222.13,"text":"這樣就好了嗎那它的管理監督機制收託要不要回報這個東西都是要一體考量你不要定點零託越做越好因為彈性化好用大家都去結果就容易就出問題了"},{"start":3223.795,"end":3247.107,"text":"所以我們在講說定點零拖有一些權利責任的問題我們要在法律裡面講清楚那這個本來我想說這日拖夜拖就不是它不是相對日拖也不是相對於夜拖它也不是相對於機構也不是相對於這個它是相對於機構和在宅照顧的另一種"},{"start":3248.88,"end":3263.532,"text":"所以才說需要入法是這樣子的所以絕對不是日拖夜拖之後定點臨拖而是機構保姆然後之後另一種縣市政府彈性父母讓父母好照顧的定點臨拖"},{"start":3264.873,"end":3279.39,"text":"這些照顧人力不用比嗎照顧環境不用安全嗎然後不用仿式嗎然後不用再有更高品質的這一些相關的規範嗎所以我們才說要不要放到法裡面是這樣講所以我們才說保留"},{"start":3280.56,"end":3300.947,"text":"好 講很清楚 來 社長要回應 請說簡單啦 簡單三點 我非常驚佩 蘇芬委員所講的 因為我們現在確實有一些有關托育的部分我們現在確實是有一些需要更多的彈性化 我說一個簡單的例子0到2歲有時候伯父他要出去 他要去超市 他要去大型超市還是要電電那裡 他也可能很失省 有可能要去站在一個有辦法讓伯父安心的地方 這個地方不是只有公家的機關"},{"start":3310.31,"end":3330.677,"text":"其他有一個大型民間的我估計高鐵站可不可以也設類似像國外已經有類似像這些像特別瑞典的這些有很多一些所謂非典型 非傳統的而這個事實上是確實可以符合很多新興父母因為父母他們自己本身也有很多工作彈性的需求所以不光車站 不光圖書館這種"},{"start":3332.518,"end":3359.293,"text":"類似像大型的民間機構他們可能也有這樣的一個需求這會不會對北部會有很多很多的一些整個彈性上的需要所以我完全同意剛才委員所說的這個部分牽涉到的是新興的我們應該要更多而且這確實是我們整個少子女化計畫裡面我們有寫進去這個我們認為應該也是一個亮點所以我知道這個有這個需求這裡面牽涉到剛剛說的新興的一些整個設置標準還有人員等等這些這個我們會來"},{"start":3360.934,"end":3388.062,"text":"回來推動 但是我現在是說可以看從委員一邊來清晰一下說因為你的設置標準的部分是不是我們在這簡單落一個款但是我們在授權執法裡面 我們來明定這個明定的部分包括你剛才說的甚至你剛才有一些公寓大廈上面的我們來參考國外的一些案例來做 但是沒關係啦 我們是這個部分我必須要困難的就是這個問題是未來的風險 我也向各位報告 上禮拜是我有去"},{"start":3389.403,"end":3416.761,"text":"有去總統府 總統報告總統有特別的講他現在我們少子女壞問題 最重要的是社會氛圍社會氛圍就是說我們現在要有很多對我們這些新手爸媽 很友善的措施這也是其中之一所以我這個部分 我們會來加強推動義兄謝謝對 就是我們這裡定義先放進去那相關的規範 如果可以放在法規我們再來看可是這裡都沒有定義上去啊"},{"start":3418.01,"end":3440.949,"text":"這是新興的 而且是未來的亮點的而且是必須要有權力責任上的規範的如果沒有權責上的要求的話我們自然不用放上去但是這裡有權力上 責任上的規範好 我們就先保留了好不好提出修正的文字出來繼續"},{"start":3446.89,"end":3465.988,"text":"來進行第四條好 會府部報告第四條的部分委員關心是希望能夠增列這個兒童優質普及平價及競變性的托育服務這樣在開宗明義來宣示那第二個部分是希望在我們的"},{"start":3467.189,"end":3481.544,"text":"第三項裡面可以增加及原住民地區能夠提供適當的這個托育服務那另外也希望我們能夠對於新增中央應該要定期辦理托育資源及需求的調查並且公開的這個結果"},{"start":3483.766,"end":3498.271,"text":"那跟委員報告第一個就是宣誓性的這樣子開宗明義的宣誓我們行政院就參採各委員的建議也感謝各位委員所以我們在第四條裡面的第一項就是增加了"},{"start":3500.712,"end":3518.543,"text":"就是除了原條文托育服務應以兒童最佳利益為優先考量那再增加委員建議的文字及提供兒童優質普及評價及競變性之托育服務那另外第三項的部分我們也增加了及援助民族地區"},{"start":3520.823,"end":3535.168,"text":"這幾個文字那至於是說那個調查的這個部分我們其實是在第5條修正案的時候其實已經有規定中央主管機關應該要定期辦理托育需求調查及公開結果以上報告好各位有沒有其他的意見針對第4條因為我們還有修正東西第7跟第8"},{"start":3553.223,"end":3578.104,"text":"那各位如果第四條沒有其他意見那我們就照行政院版本通過好謝謝修正通過對不對照行政院版本修正通過修正文字好那再來接下來是第五條的部分委員建議是要增列全國性托育推廣實驗那另外也要明定中央需要明定運用居家托育育人員照顧及家外安置兒童相關的規定"},{"start":3579.025,"end":3603.155,"text":"那再來的話是要協助托育人員及家長成立組織這三個針點那行政院這邊我們我們是為福部建議是第一個在中央主管機關剛剛有提到前一條的這個中央主管機關掌理的事項我們就增加了一點辦理托育定期辦理托育需求調查及分析及"},{"start":3604.175,"end":3623.861,"text":"訂定全國性托育服務的政策與法規與方案之規劃訂定推廣及研究那再來一個就是針對於成立這個組織的這個部分那我們是建議因為大部分的團體其實我們有人民團體法的相關規定所以是不是"},{"start":3624.361,"end":3633.91,"text":"可以讓民眾或家長他們自主來組織這個團體的部分在法律的部分在我們的兒托法裡面不列入這樣子好 各位人針對第5條行政院的請林書威委員"},{"start":3642.655,"end":3672.115,"text":"就是說第一項就是說我們去辦理托育的需求調查及分析要幹嘛所以我們前面你後面是不是加兩個字叫據已據已訂定全國性的托育服務政策與法規和方案的規劃訂定和推廣就是要依據這一些調查和分析要加據已這樣才能知道他的相關性這可以啊"},{"start":3675.785,"end":3700.962,"text":"就是其實中央要訂出這個托育的政策然後依據調查的需求去訂定這樣子然後第三項我們希望這個托育需求的調查和分析可以公開嘛第三項可不可以在前面先增加一個叫第一項第一款定期辦理托育需求的調查及分析應公開這樣子"},{"start":3704.424,"end":3723.953,"text":"對就是我們很多其實調查這些調查政府機關很多然後很多也都有公開那我們也希望這個可以公開大概你們都會委外吧 委外然後就看到一個報告然後就跟他公開這樣子而已請理念請委員"},{"start":3735.981,"end":3755.958,"text":"請衛福部說明一下因為當初我們有列上次在增點裡面我們有提到就是協助托育人員組織及家長組織的成立那我不知道這次還是沒有列進去那個考慮是什麼上次增點裡面我們還是期待是上次要放進去這個"},{"start":3758.48,"end":3778.321,"text":"概念就是說你還是要讓托育人員的組織能夠去協助他們能夠去輔導他們成立還有家長組織另外一個我們事實上蠻偏頗的就是說如果是在幼兒在嬰幼兒這個階段幾乎都沒有家長組織所以當一些問題要去"},{"start":3780.143,"end":3805.894,"text":"捍衛孩子權益的或捍衛托育人員的權益的時候常常往往事實上是沒有組織可以出來發聲所以我認為政府部門應該去扶持這是第一個第二個針對於你們把整個合併在第一項說定期辦理托育需求調查及分析訂定全國性的那個托育政策然後依著這個政策然後跟法規要來做推廣可是當初我擬的事實上是希望是"},{"start":3806.534,"end":3832.794,"text":"整個托育服務理念跟法規的宣導跟推廣好像就辣掉了像很多時候托育服務的理念如果沒有去宣導民眾很多事實上都不太了解說為什麼有這樣子的一個托育服務那個概念事實上是為了誰可是現在只是針對於政策跟法規去做宣推廣我覺得好像是跟當初我擬的另外一點事實上是好像你在和平的時候就"},{"start":3833.635,"end":3836.717,"text":"忽略掉那個托育服務理念 以上好來請王育民委員"},{"start":3841.943,"end":3863.704,"text":"那個第五條這邊你們現在的修訂我覺得也沒有定的比原來委員提出來版本更好因為第一個我要講就是說全國性托育服務的政策法規方案的規劃訂定宣導及研究這個本來就是中央的責任第二個你現在要去辦的這一些定期的托育需求調查及分析"},{"start":3864.745,"end":3879.451,"text":"這個是另外一件事情就是這個部分是剛剛淑芬委員講的你應該要去公開或者是說這個以這個提供你之後的一些政策分析的參考這應該是另外一件事情並不是你所有的政策的訂定"},{"start":3880.211,"end":3906.17,"text":"完全百分之百你都會是因為你辦理了這個需求調查分析百分之百是來自於它有一些是因為你看到其他國家的經驗有些你是看到食物的需求就是說你全國性服務政策的訂定應該是更寬廣的你的對象來源更多你不是只是因著這一個需求調查分析而來但是你現在把它改成這樣子你會變成百分之百"},{"start":3906.65,"end":3924.73,"text":"有做這個調查分析你才會有全國性的政策法規方案的規劃不是這樣子的吧我覺得你們越改越不好啊就是如果是需要做定期的調查分析那這一個可以另外你其實原來在你的第幾項"},{"start":3927.283,"end":3952.604,"text":"就是你應該是把研究調查這個獨立成一項不要那個做百分之百的連動我個人不認為你們所有的全國性的政策是來自於就是這個調查你沒調查的時候你就不會有政策嗎不是這樣子的有些時候是地方的反應你的訊息來源資料是很多元性好不好我覺得變成這樣子反而是更狹隘的"},{"start":3955.704,"end":3980.778,"text":"我講完一遍讓他們回答原來我的在這一條是第一項的第八款有提到說要依照福利跟權益保障法第56條的那個第一項二款行刑如果運用到適當的居托人員照顧家外安置並應該建立相關評估標準跟照顧期間跟教訓訓練方式"},{"start":3981.698,"end":4005.305,"text":"那你這邊本來你的針點這邊本來講說你們會移到第17條裡面可是我們現在看我現在翻看17條並沒有這個條文所以我本來是要列在這邊可是你們說你要移到17條那如果當移到那邊我覺得OK因為我們就是要解決在過去怎麼會有家外安置安置在保姆家可是"},{"start":4006.325,"end":4034.831,"text":"管理事實上非常的薄弱才會衍生凱凱案的這種狀況所以我們希望能夠強化結果你這邊大家後來又沒有特別去提到這個你們要去做而且我覺得這次在托育服務專法我就特別強調這一塊結果還是沒有看到那你說要按照你版本那你把這一條到底拿哪邊去以上 謝謝來你要等林委員講完再一併回應好不好 來"},{"start":4036.955,"end":4066.058,"text":"我要跟王委員澄清一下就是說這個政策要反映調查需求而不是調查是全部政策的依據你做這個調查其實就是要能夠把這個問題反映在政策上去呈現但是並不是說政策全部都聽這個調查的不是這個意思另外就是說比如說你沒有去做調查你不會知道說有定點零拖的需求"},{"start":4066.909,"end":4087.197,"text":"我們不知道托育的需求是什麼你去做了調查發現定點零托的需求很大那我們就要反映到政策裡面所以我再講一次就是說政策要能夠反映調查出來的需求沒有調查就沒有實證基礎去訂定政策這也是很奇怪的"},{"start":4088.237,"end":4108.083,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面並不是說政策全部都聽這個而是你做了這個調查在政策裡面要反映出來所以他們現在這樣改就不對了現在這樣改就會變成是完全是依照這個調查那如果這樣的話就照我們的版本的前面的這個整段的條文就放在一起"},{"start":4110.06,"end":4128.975,"text":"我們的版本 托盟的版本它上面寫的它本來都放在一起的就中央主管機關應定期辦理托育資源及需求調查公開其統計及分析的結果並具以訂定托育服務政策我們本來的版本是這樣子單獨一項"},{"start":4131.877,"end":4142.405,"text":"這樣子但是他把我們拆出來我們才變成那樣如果像我們寫的另外最後放一個單獨我剛剛念的我們的版本這樣子我們是可以接受的"},{"start":4146.294,"end":4166.063,"text":"好來請行政機關同意回答好謝謝委員的指教我想我們大概在第五條中央主管機關掌理的事項我們做做一些修正第一個因為確實是有一些不一樣第一個我們大概就是維持我們原來行政院提到這個版本也參照委員的意見"},{"start":4167.063,"end":4196.021,"text":"就是中央主管機關掌理的事項第一項是全國性托育服務的政策法規與方案的規劃訂定宣導與推廣及研究這樣子那第二個部分是就是對直轄市縣市主管機關執行托育之輔導協調及監督這樣子那第三項也是維持我們原來的條文"},{"start":4196.861,"end":4222.353,"text":"那第四項第五項大概到第六項都是那我們再增列一項就是剛剛委員非常關心就是定期辦理就是依照那個剛剛林淑芬委員這個建議就是定期辦理托育這個需可能不是只有資源啦因為還有別的我們是不是可以直接寫辦理托育需求調查及分析然後並公佈結果這樣子"},{"start":4225.695,"end":4244.866,"text":"然後據已定定托育服務的政策獨立成為一項這樣一款對不起你還是沒有回答我的我先把這個對我先把這個就是我們會增加一款這樣子"},{"start":4247.714,"end":4267.957,"text":"可不可以再念一次就是我們在這個第六款之下增加第七款就是因為這都是講的是中央主管機關的執掌就是定期辦理托育需求調查及分析然後具以訂定托育服務政策這樣子"},{"start":4269.369,"end":4279.234,"text":"那我們的公開呢 公開其統計及分析的結果進行調查並公佈結果 據已訂定托育服務政策"},{"start":4282.102,"end":4308.749,"text":"最後一項就是說應該定期辦理托育需求調查分析那公開其統計及分析的結果並具以訂定托育服務政策好可以好那我們就依照那個剛剛林委員的建議文字好那另外就是林院前委員剛剛提到的這個家外安置的這個部分我們是會放在後面的條文"},{"start":4309.449,"end":4329.98,"text":"那所以本來是想說等到我們建議是放在行政院版本第17條之後可是我剛看後面的沒有特別提到17條沒有特別提到因為就把文字我把文字寫我們寫在這裡我念一遍好你念一遍好我念一遍慢著我可不可以我可不可以先講一下月請"},{"start":4331.321,"end":4354.507,"text":"你可不可以聽我講一下因為這是我們民間托育的聲音就是說居家托育作為安置服務他們認為保姆不適合作為安置人力的這個居家托育人員的制度定位和工作模式因為家外安置照顧的需求跟保姆的照顧其實他有明顯的落差"},{"start":4355.117,"end":4365.779,"text":"那保姆跟家長共同育兒保姆有一定的時間也就是即使是24小時托育也有禮拜六禮拜日要帶回去的那保姆"},{"start":4366.966,"end":4393.968,"text":"在沒有托兒的時候可以休息 因此居家托育的要求他們會要求保母托育時要專注那托育不得由保母家人擔任幫手但安置就不太一樣 因為安置是24小時的全年無休的 全時的所以居家托育原本是作為補充性的照顧但是家長為主力 保母是協助所以都是個人"},{"start":4395.85,"end":4412.573,"text":"職業這樣子沒有團隊只能靠自己那也沒有喘息案後援那把家外安置交給這個保姆可能並不是很適當所以這個居家托育的是不是能夠排除這個保姆的就可以了"},{"start":4417.782,"end":4427.891,"text":"因為安置是24小時全天候的照顧我完全同意啦我現在我政策我這樣算補啦我們會兩個一定會把它分開就這樣就是說這個確實整個"},{"start":4433.636,"end":4455.658,"text":"那個設置的標準還有關心的完全都不一樣所以我完全同意這個回去我會帶回去就是說這兩個我會跟同仁講就分開就這樣但待會再講一下月井講說應該評估居家托育人員的適任性建議修正程應該評估居家托育人員的適任性及其同住家人的合適性其次就是訪視的機制這個好像也不明確這樣子啦"},{"start":4457.163,"end":4481.728,"text":"第一個你們要另立一套還是因為現在已經是不可反了是幾乎各縣市都這樣做那你們又一直始終現在安置的量還是隨著少子化照理來講安置量要降低可是安置量事實上是上升可是我們聯合國根本也就是說不主張事實上是在安置在機構裡面所以家內是最好的"},{"start":4482.248,"end":4502.694,"text":"那現在就是說如果要脫鉤我沒意見可是真的能找到這一群人嗎過去是沒辦法找到技嘉技嘉隨著年紀越大就越而且技嘉事實上是一直往下往下降的那我當然完全同意說你要完全脫鉤可是這個脫鉤如果按照剛剛講是完全只要保姆都不行還是說完"},{"start":4503.254,"end":4527.095,"text":"保母要獨立出來一塊那獨立出來一塊就是說要另外管理還是說今天獨立出來就是說他完全不能照顧一般小孩就只能照顧安置小孩這個要清楚否則的話就會變成說你現在脫鉤然後現在講得好清楚好像要脫鉤可是到時候又還是用保母這一群人他帶一般小孩剛剛淑芬委員講的是說完全不可以去照顧其他小孩就只能照顧安置的孩子"},{"start":4528.155,"end":4554.34,"text":"這樣子嘛所以你要先講清楚這個概念然後另外一個是始終還是沒有回答我的也就是說今天我的第九款希望你們協助托育人員組織及家長組織一直以來我們都是國小國中高中才有家長組織可是我覺得政府責務龐大應該協力還有過去呢事實上幼兒園有所謂的教保人員甚至教師的組織"},{"start":4556.26,"end":4573.451,"text":"可是始終我們沒有這一塊托育人員的組織我覺得政府應該去扶持可是到現在你們也還沒回應我這一塊以上好 跟委員報告當然先回應第一點就是我們保母照顧家外安置的兒少"},{"start":4574.031,"end":4598.361,"text":"像成如我們剛剛次長講我們大概在政策上面是會要要把它分開那我們目前確實有些縣市我們目前還沒有辦法分開可是他照顧一般家家長把孩子送託跟照顧因為兒虐或不當對待安置的兒少其實他需要的專業知識跟他的照顧的精神其實是不一樣的如果我們現在是混收的這件事情其實長遠來講其實是不好的"},{"start":4598.701,"end":4621.273,"text":"所以我們也在跟縣市溝通是要把它分開可是這個可能是需要一些時間就是我們的理想是我們照顧一般家庭的保姆就是回到這個登記之而託法的這個部分那如果是他要照顧耳虐的孩子或者是遭受不當對待的這些小孩其實這些孩子的身心創傷是真的是比較多的他跟一般家庭的孩子混在一起其實是不好的"},{"start":4621.673,"end":4646.717,"text":"那我們的政策方向應該是長遠來講他應該是要分開只是我們目前跟縣市溝通有些縣市就像林委員講他的資源不夠所以他還沒有辦法可是像在過去凱旱出發生的時候其實我們把收儲場這件事就要脫鉤了好這件事那我們現在都還列管如果是收儲場的案件是在保姆家的這個那都希望他能夠再做調整這件事情"},{"start":4647.077,"end":4664.98,"text":"所以家外安置確實是跟一般家庭孩子的我覺得在居家托育人員這邊最好我們是要分開的因為他需要的訓練他需要的專注可能都是不一樣這件事情所以我想我們的政策剛剛次長有講我們的政策方向是要分開"},{"start":4665.541,"end":4693.037,"text":"只是他需要一些時間的處理需要各自在部件那第二個問題是說保母他是不是一定是因為寄養家庭他確實是現在比較難收那我們會覺得是保母他仍然可以用保母的資源可是他就是收這樣子的孩子給他的資源應該要比較足夠這件事他不一定是不是一定要納進寄養家庭的系統這個可能要再跟我們兒上組再做一些比較詳細的討論我覺得可是他應該要跟一般家庭的孩子要分開"},{"start":4693.837,"end":4721.602,"text":"因為那個孩子是24小時都會是在保母家的可是你現行就已經做不到然後過去就一直用辦法所以才會發生凱凱的個性是根本沒有再去管理的所謂的原則或者是辦法或者是指引最後才會釀成那樣子的一個這麼重大的事件發生所以我說你們現在如果不定在這種母法裡面強度法律的強度比較強一點我們會在兒少權法裡面定"},{"start":4722.262,"end":4744.584,"text":"耳燒懸法什麼時候送出來呢耳燒懸法根本已經14年了你說到現在都還沒修那專法事實上是比較快那我等於說那在中間這種假設青黃不接的時候能不能保證不再發生這種狀況否則新北有護苗計畫各縣市也還是景安跟一般安置都安置在保母家"},{"start":4745.044,"end":4773.738,"text":"可是誰在管理誰在有那樣的強度要求目前你們是用那個原則執下縣市運用居托人員來進行安置的這一個原則這原則誰會管所以過去一直才會沒有這樣執行本來那邊原則是講得很清楚說要仿似輔導良好者你才可以來做安置誰有這樣做嗎沒有啊因為為什麼因為基本上"},{"start":4774.358,"end":4801.194,"text":"安置机构安置0到6岁以下小孩子也非常非常的少我们也不主张小孩到安置机构去可是继家一直往下降那你只能是寄托所以你就看安置机构比较多是安置比较大的小孩可是寄托在保姆的时候我没有同意认为说这两个要混在一起可是问题是现行你们就是混在一起才会发生这样的事情然后又没有很好的去管理这一块说"},{"start":4801.754,"end":4817.261,"text":"你安置24小時全年無休的狀態安置在保母家給人家的錢又非常的少所以才會技嘉真的有就是要人家有愛心可是基本上給人家給錢這麼少的時候他們很多搞不好還要墊資"},{"start":4818.171,"end":4847.631,"text":"那技嘉當然不會願意做好一般保姆他只好去說那被縣市政府拜託來收安置可是重點他還是要養家活口所以他就會變成有一般的然後再加上你安置桶放在一起所以我也想問雖然今天不是討論這可是如果要脫鉤的話我說不是不同意可是現行你們到底要怎麼做因為持續還在安置那你們有更好的強度嗎我們也不希望再度的又發生像凱凱那樣的憾事"},{"start":4848.791,"end":4864.18,"text":"所以我要先問這個我才覺得能夠接受說這邊不要去去放要先回還是林委員要問我覺得月琴問的問題"},{"start":4866.686,"end":4887.162,"text":"因為他覺得不能兩邊都沒有這樣子但是我還是要講就是說至少你們我再講一下這個也是團體托盟的意見就是說這個法處理的是托育但是因為寄養的制度可能就不只是托育了不只是"},{"start":4887.722,"end":4908.836,"text":"那再來就是保姆其實可以轉成這個寄養家庭但這個寄養家庭並不是用保姆這個方式來管理的但我現在講說我很高興聽到行政部門認知到居家保姆跟這個受傷的這個寄養而虐的這種保姆其實是要不一樣要脫鉤的"},{"start":4911.158,"end":4935.652,"text":"雖然保母的工作型態雖然是一個保母居家照顧而且是適合0到6歲受傷的小孩的型態但因為保母的勞動條件勞動的樣態還是跟真正要收容一個心理受傷的或是寄養而虐的案子的小孩他的需求是沒有完全一致符合的"},{"start":4936.372,"end":4964.773,"text":"但我们这里讲的就是托育服务而不是寄养服务那在这种状况里面我觉得政府的责任在哪里政府责任就是月勤刚才讲的就是说你们一直都没有没有好好正视这个问题然后去督导地方政府要完备这一个安置的大小孩的安置的机构或者是小小孩的这个寄养家庭的量能过去一直都没有做然后也越做越差"},{"start":4965.573,"end":4979.811,"text":"所以導致大家都覺得說整個社會是不是都倒退倒退路所以在這種狀況裡面這是兩件事但是剛才次長承諾說遭全罰要改善"},{"start":4984.811,"end":5012.622,"text":"對啦但是你要跟他講清楚啊那我抱歉我再講一下評估不能只是評估居家托育人員因為安置是24小時全天候而且是可能好幾個月好幾個月甚至是全年都無休的這樣子那他就要像家庭一樣的互動的家庭成員一樣所以這種評估這個也是寄養家庭的評估的標準所以我們才建議說應該評估居家托育人員的適任性要"},{"start":5013.502,"end":5041.907,"text":"修改成說評估這個居家托育人員的適任性及其同處家人的合適性那仿事機制是不是不確定的法律用語所以要怎麼執行也是一個問題那像凱凱案在爭執誰是主責的社工的時候因此有關兒童安置的人員資格及相關管理的規範所以也都有發生過爭議嘛所以我們才建議說統一在兒少全法裡面去明定這樣子為家"},{"start":5043.027,"end":5069.953,"text":"但是現在月薪講的問題你怎麼解決先請王委員 好不好請林委員 抱歉剛剛衛福部講的就是兩個一般兒童的托育我們這邊訂的兒童專法是針對一般兒童那特殊兒童弱勢兒童或者是初養兒童有另外是福利體制另外建制一套"},{"start":5070.753,"end":5095.625,"text":"這樣的一個脫鉤我是贊成的因為這樣子也是比較清楚那現在問題是說在你兒少全法提出來的目前的這段期間你們是透過什麼樣的機制讓這一些有需求的孩子你們現在的照顧有沒有問題你們有持續加強一個就是說這一些保姆的資格一個就是說他的這個訪視的頻率你們有沒有增加然後現在遇到的問題是什麼剛剛"},{"start":5096.806,"end":5125.142,"text":"因為剛剛這個妹妹她有講說有些縣市它現在量能是不足的嘛那這個部分你們打算要透過什麼樣的方式你剛有提到一個就是說原來的保姆他如果再加一些訓練他一樣有資格可以去收託但是他就必須接受你們另外一套針對這個安置的這個系統的督導那這個也是一個可解決的方式那這個你們到底現在的這個實施的模式是什麼然後未來定在兒少全法"},{"start":5125.962,"end":5140.587,"text":"這個方向我是贊成的大家關心的只是說怕現在有空窗期若不是定在這邊 而是到全法院還沒出來現在空窗期你們到底怎麼運作這樣子對好這個可能可以跟委員再講得更清楚一點謝謝那請您的請委員"},{"start":5142.288,"end":5168.65,"text":"好第一個我想剛剛講的那個案子我覺得看要放後邊再做討論也可以可是前面先回答的是說我一直在講說要協助托育人員組織及家長組織的成立你們覺得不行的到底原因是什麼因為我希望放進去這是第一個第二個我還是要講等一下後面討論的時候也要去講到你現在就是有些保姆本來就有居家的身分那他有居家身分他本來就可以帶"},{"start":5171.044,"end":5198.586,"text":"我們寄養童那他帶寄養童的時候你就會要求他說不可以帶一般小孩沒有啊現行沒有這樣子的一個規定啊就帶寄養童也是可以帶一般的小孩那你以後如果我合法合理的取得寄養家庭的一個資格的時候你是會未來脫鉤的時候你一樣會要求我說那我就是不能帶一般小孩因為我覺得始終最大的問題就是你們給寄家的費用實在是低到不行"},{"start":5199.895,"end":5227.567,"text":"人家家長送托小孩奶粉尿片事實上是他們家長提供另外有給托育費用我們不是我們一筆錢包山包海包全部那大計計家當然不太可能會願意你要去那他就要有一般兒童的收托的時候他至少能夠做愛心也不能做到人家基本上幾乎都沒有一點費用還要自己去墊支"},{"start":5228.227,"end":5249.52,"text":"這樣的狀況裡面那一樣我還是要問的是等下後邊我覺得主題等下可以是說只要回答到我的那個第九款外那其他的我覺得等下再17條之後要討論這條的時候再來討論我還是認為這過度時間你們沒有處理如果我們的兒權法是明年"},{"start":5250.561,"end":5268.701,"text":"後邊修法也是很長像你看這兒托法這個會期上個會期進來討論到現在還在討論要通過也要大半年的時間這中間我們真的都不希望孩子有任何的事情那真的你們要如果不要放在這邊要清楚的說明你這空窗期怎麼做"},{"start":5269.261,"end":5285.447,"text":"你做的強度會是什麼因為基本上中央最大麻煩就規定規範政策可是執行的是地方政府你有辦法讓地方政府都按照你們的規準在執行嗎而且那個規準又是法律位階低到不行的狀態裡邊然後出事了"},{"start":5286.636,"end":5302.061,"text":"可是大家都在罵中央喔絕對不會講地方喔因為中央是制定政策的一個單位啊那最後怎麼會是最後變 可是執行的是地方啊所以這你們要不要想清楚啦好 以上"},{"start":5303.24,"end":5331.308,"text":"好謝謝這個林域情委員是好意思提醒我了解非常感謝委員在這個問題的關心啦我其實說的是我進入之後馬上我就先刷我們兒童法還有生權法還有社會救助法我也是專程會推刷我們這個部分弄了我一直在馬上我就弄兒童權法這第一點回應第二點剛才有關於我知道現在濟洋家庭過去我在台中也做過社會協定"},{"start":5333.308,"end":5360.592,"text":"最主要就是我們那裡月清委員所說的對於整個寄養家庭的整個給人家太少這個部分我也會一定會來提高但是現在重點不是這樣這個裡面的很多的部分是地方政府應該安置費用應該要處理所以我們這個部分衛福部這邊會來協調地方政府你趕快給我提高不然不好意思我有一些補助我要扣掉那就是這樣其他的中間的我請美美副署長來"},{"start":5361.59,"end":5377.691,"text":"好跟委員報告大概就是我們先說明這個家外安置運用保姆的這個部分大概我們次長剛好說我們大概就放在建議是放在那個兒少法的修法那目前我們的機制其實剛剛向林委員談到我們現在目前是有原則"},{"start":5378.812,"end":5395.357,"text":"那我們原則其實本來現在的規定當然就是他一定要接受一定的訓練那同時他有一些資格他必須是要經過所謂的適合性大概是他第一個他是要登記合格的保姆那第二個是他有過去沒有違規他才有可能"},{"start":5395.757,"end":5421.943,"text":"那當然我想這個部分我們會跟地方再做一些加強那第二個是林月琴委員關心的就是組織就是應該協助托育機構成立這個專業組織的這個部分其實我們是有放在如果這個委員認為是要放在這個耳托法我們是建議放在比較後面的條文了那我們有處理了一些條文的文字我想我可以先讀一下"},{"start":5422.643,"end":5424.686,"text":"就是在第38頁 今天會議是第38頁"},{"start":5431.127,"end":5451.8,"text":"那我們建議的文字是各級主管機關應協助機構托育人員成立各級托育人員專業組織協助其訂定工作倫理守則並宣導鼓勵機構托育人員依公會法組織及參與公會那第二項是托育機構應建立"},{"start":5453.2,"end":5475.272,"text":"機構托育人員參與托育服務及員工權益重要事務決策之機制這是我們行政部門的建議文字以上報告不好意思你38頁跟我們38頁是不是不一樣的所以我們看不到你的那個文字我們的38頁跟你38頁我們就看不到你剛講的那些"},{"start":5499.145,"end":5504.352,"text":"這個跟我的原因還是不一樣這邊是托育人員那我那邊還有一個家長組織"},{"start":5507.438,"end":5525.728,"text":"對 不是只有工會還有家長組織因為始終都沒有家長組織來為我們的家長的權益跟兒少的權益倡議可是國中 小高中是有的那我認為是要扶持所以我們一直缺幼兒這一塊"},{"start":5529.338,"end":5544.835,"text":"所以才會希望你們能不能也是要協助而且中央層級跟地方還是不一樣為什麼因為地方當然可以去組織各地方的工會這邊解決的是托育人員的工會這一塊可是我們希望事實上是可能"},{"start":5546.417,"end":5559.55,"text":"在中央的話應該也要做這樣的一個工作站不是規則在地方去執行所以我覺得這一條我蠻堅持的是不是在這邊要放我們的托育人員跟家長組織那個委員的意思是說就像小學的這種家長會的組織是嗎"},{"start":5575.293,"end":5586.767,"text":"是像學校的不是說全國家長聯盟對 類似這種還有托育也是一樣地方可以去鼓勵地方的工會可是中央還是要做這個"},{"start":5588.519,"end":5613.607,"text":"因為我們現在很缺的就是比較小的這一塊沒有這樣可是問題是有時候政府開會的時候又喜歡邀家長組織一堆國中小的家長組織他們的小孩都過來講的時候講的東西根本不符合我們自己的幼教的一個需求跟概念所以我認為你們應該只是我想說協助把它入法的話就是你們未來要去推動這件事情主席"},{"start":5621.434,"end":5628.058,"text":"陳教授委員 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關"},{"start":5647.202,"end":5654.618,"text":"做完做出這件事情好像直接放在中央主管局官的掌理事項可以再討論這是我的意見"},{"start":5662.95,"end":5680.378,"text":"我們雖然是有這麼多的托嬰中心,不過我們的托嬰中心的規模其實不是非常大像我們的公共家園大概是只有12人然後另外我們在私立的立案的機構大概是平均大概都是30人收托的我們也不鼓勵收托太多"},{"start":5681.738,"end":5706.207,"text":"0到20歲的孩子其實他的風險比較大那我們如果政府部門要協助這些家長成立組織因為他跟學校的情況是不太一樣的因為學校的從小學到這個國中他的班級數是多的那他本來就是每個每個教室都會有家長的這個代表然後學校會有家長會那家長會當然自然他可以容易成立一個全國性的這個家長組織"},{"start":5707.347,"end":5736.707,"text":"那如果這邊我們要框到的是我行政部門要協助托嬰的家長成立這個組織這件事還要協助托育人員成立他的組織這件事我想在行政部門在做托育服務裡面我想這個可能也不是我們的這個專長那第二個是他本來人民團體30個人以上就可以主持一個協會他本來就可以依照人民團體法去做立案的這個組織我想我們先做這個說明"},{"start":5737.868,"end":5753.768,"text":"來 你也請委員我覺得我剛剛講的跟學校體制不一樣什麼學校有那個家長會不是我覺得事實上是的確是民間團體我認為事實上政府要去推動因為過去我覺得很多時候政府的"},{"start":5755.39,"end":5772.395,"text":"一些相關的事物像工會這些我覺得地方的我覺得我能接受就是說地方因為有地方的像看台北市有托育人員協會然後呢台中有托育人員協會這個OK那可是中央的還是請問一下你們每次開會邀家長團體邀誰"},{"start":5775.751,"end":5792.001,"text":"可是這跟家長權益是有很大的關係喔幾乎沒有嘛連我們的托育團體用手指都數得出來你們會找的大概就是額蒙嘛彭婉如嘛然後呢全國性的保母團體嘛那基本上"},{"start":5793.095,"end":5806.102,"text":"也沒有全國性的現在當然有那個拖產就全教產那可能他會來參與可是這些都沒有講來講去也沒有家長的團體知道家長的權益在哪邊"},{"start":5807.409,"end":5836.731,"text":"所以我們才會希望說你們否則你不要用協助的話所以我們用協助這個字眼或是說你們要去推廣這件事情不是任由現在沒有一個你開政策會議的時候你根本找不到家長的任何組織來給你們表示意見那讓他們組織可以協助他們去成立所以我要的是這個概念所以我說用協助或者是說你們要用推廣我也都接受可是我就不可能不做"},{"start":5837.051,"end":5848.674,"text":"因為幼照法也是這樣子幼照法也是要求是說要協助那個家長和那個教保人員的組織去推廣去協助他們成立"},{"start":5854.461,"end":5874.14,"text":"我那個我知道委員所說的意思確實就是說那個嬰幼兒畢竟小嘛那他的權益看怎麼去確保我們這個現在目前已經有這個服務端他們的這個自我組織現在委員現在最重要就是說那個兒童這邊家長這邊怎麼去那這樣好不好我們是不是用那個推廣兩個字這樣好不好"},{"start":5875.665,"end":5893.597,"text":"因為我覺得你們每次要找業者團體反而不找因為沒有任何家長團體為孩子跟家長的權益發聲那我們是不是就推廣好不好用推廣的方式好不好你問好不好一定跟你講不好"},{"start":5898.83,"end":5923.309,"text":"不是啦那個林月琴委員要他的期待那個家長的團體基本上講那個是最實際的問題因為早來公部門要去形成政策聆聽的家長的意見基本上是是沒有一個對象對象跟範圍所以他才會想說你們早來都是"},{"start":5924.482,"end":5932.955,"text":"其實不是加整個團體來表達意見那你還用推廣那就很弱了啦很弱了應該是這麼說啦我是覺得那個"},{"start":5935.717,"end":5960.796,"text":"社長可以再想一下怎麼樣讓文字變成比較強一點這樣第二個三四五款我覺得是不是有先後順序還有重疊的一些問題文字上你們再看一下好不好三四五款應該有先後順序的問題還有文字重疊的問題是不是一併來做修正好"},{"start":5967.515,"end":5987.427,"text":"先保留 好不好還是你要說五分鐘可以隨時修我們也可以好 你要再想一下所以五分鐘你想不起來就對了確定 一定要超過五分鐘好 可以 好那我們先修一個五分鐘好不好讓他跟大家討論一下文字好 這樣 好"},{"start":6698.462,"end":6722.55,"text":"好 我們繼續開會可以了喔 可以了嗎那文字要不要再給大家看一下委員會這邊宣告我們中午十二點會休息喔中午十二點 下午兩點再繼續開始好 謝謝來 各位委員看這文字帳可不可以一樣叫推廣"},{"start":6726.451,"end":6745.942,"text":"公委員報告我們大概就增加了第七款第七款就是中央的部分就是定期伴侶托育需求調查公開統計及分析之結果具以訂定托育服務政策那第八款就是協助托育人員組織及家長組織之成立這樣子"},{"start":6746.582,"end":6770.956,"text":"好那這個大概是中央的主管的事項那在地方的主管事項是不是委員我們可以建議也搭配著這一條就是第八款我們也在地方的主管事項裡面增加地方也是要協助托育人員組織及家長組織之成立那調查托育需求的部分我們就放在全國性來做調查這樣子"},{"start":6772.697,"end":6791.626,"text":"那地方就不做這個調查因為地方的人口數也沒有那麼多這樣子聯約請問可以吧好 謝謝委員大家再看一下但是那個三四五款我剛剛有提醒是不是有一些有一些疊寵的問題第六第七拉下來三四五啦 三四五六七 看一下"},{"start":6802.489,"end":6819.878,"text":"三四五他現在沒有改啦六七有改可以喔"},{"start":6833.919,"end":6846.362,"text":"好各位如果沒有意見那我們就照行政會在修正的版本通過好謝謝繼續審查第6條修正動議的第16案請行政機關要不要說明"},{"start":6864.588,"end":6892.831,"text":"好那第六條的部分委員的建議是要規範縣市定裁罰基準然後另外就是要憑鑒居家托育服務中心還有居托中心的業務執掌跟職責應該要明確工作人員適用消極資格以及新增臨時托育的這個規定那我們行政部門的分析大概是第一個大概就是那個因為裁罰的基準是"},{"start":6895.985,"end":6908.025,"text":"我們可以把它加進來就是成為地方的這個主管的執掌那我們要加在我們加在第一就是這一款的"},{"start":6913.635,"end":6927.725,"text":"第8的其他我們就往下移了所以我們增加第8款就是違反本法應處罰處罰完成度裁量基準的訂定加在地方的這個主管機關的權限"},{"start":6929.079,"end":6951.7,"text":"那另外就是居托中心的這個評鑑的部分因為我們在兒托法裡面未來的居托中心它其實要執行的是部分公權力的這個部分所以我們在執行公權力的部分大概是不太會是用評鑑我們是用檢查跟督導跟管理的這個部分所以我們建議這個部分是不是不納入"},{"start":6952.481,"end":6958.983,"text":"那另外一個居托中心的這個業務執照我們應該都有一些相關的規定在後面以上說明"},{"start":6964.246,"end":6981.668,"text":"來 請陳昭志委員謝謝主席剛剛這邊衛福部有說明應該是那時候我先提出來這個想法就是說因為目前這個直轄市跟縣市政府他是第一線負責去監督檢查跟開罰但是現在依照兒照法的規定有些地方政府在進行開罰的時候他沒有依照"},{"start":6982.589,"end":7001.128,"text":"情節的輕重次數等去訂定裁罰的基準通常都是會用最低的裁罰沒有進行過真正的加重處罰目前有台中市台北市陸續有在議員的監督要求下有訂定裁罰基準並且對累犯業者進行加重處罰"},{"start":7002.069,"end":7025.648,"text":"所以我才請說請教威福部說這樣現象是不是要求應該要求各地方政府要有一致性就是不要一個國家有很多很多的制度財閥基準那現在您是已經明定把它寫進去了原意是如此要依據我們這個模仿要訂財閥的基準這裡是授權嗎就是說你會去訂"},{"start":7029.182,"end":7046.978,"text":"因為我們各縣市他還是會有一些我們希望能夠因地制宜可是要求他們自己的縣市他要定一樣的標準不會因人而異因為剛剛你們講的是全縣那我的概念是責任這不是你們權利而是說你要有這個責任去讓大家進來全國支持是 會來 林益勤委"},{"start":7054.026,"end":7081.293,"text":"上次大家有提到因為的確你們現在沒有要去評鑑因為把它拘托中心變成是有公權力不是去評鑑可是也想問的是說那這邊裡面都沒有寫到是說那你們對拘托中心的一些管理的或者是檢查的機制剛剛副署長有講到說有一些管理機制可是在法條裡面並沒有列上去"},{"start":7084.73,"end":7112.637,"text":"所以可不可以請衛福部說明一下我們在第四款裡面其實是有就是居托的這個輔導監督跟檢查我們是有訂了那它比較詳細的應該是在後面的是不是有授權的辦法可是副總長這邊寫的應該是對保母你的第四款實際上現在是居家托育服務的登記這個登記就指的事實上是保母管理媒合"},{"start":7114.018,"end":7129.111,"text":"輔導監督跟檢查這個都是針對於保姆並不是針對管理保姆的那個居托中心所以可能要釐清所以你針對居托中心畢竟即便再怎麼有公勤人力還是事實上是委外有各個團體來"},{"start":7130.752,"end":7159.135,"text":"那各個團體那個稱之不齊因為每一個有的縣市事實上是拜託人家來執行這個居托中心的那當然我覺得這時候你你如果過去事實上是有評鑑可以去把列的把它去除掉可是你現在要執行公權令你說不要有評鑑那當然也可行可是重點是你對它的規管還是不可以忽略掉啊可是編法條通通沒有列我知道"},{"start":7160.235,"end":7184.742,"text":"跟剛剛說明的好像是不一致以上來 請王正旭委員謝謝主席那有關這一條我們看到的全部都是在寫居家托育那我們剛剛在前面其實有提到一個很重要就是臨時托育的部分所以我們不清楚就是目前所說的托育有沒有包括臨時托育"},{"start":7185.262,"end":7198.931,"text":"那如何才能夠把臨時托育這樣的需求也能夠放在這一條裡面 讓地方直轄縣市在處理的時候 針對臨時托育的部分也能夠距離辦理這邊可以請這個主管機關再說明 謝謝"},{"start":7205.286,"end":7227.143,"text":"來請說明來是第一個部分在我先說明剛剛那個林苑群委員剛剛提到的就是我們在地方的這個掌理的事項裡面沒有把拘托中心是地方也要掌理的這個事項列進來那我覺得是應該要列我們想一下文字請同仁想一下文字那第二個部分零拖是剛剛前面那個條文有保留所以我們因為剛剛在定點零拖那邊有做了一些保留我們所以"},{"start":7238.617,"end":7256.408,"text":"所以怎樣其實第四檔剛剛有保留是因為定點零拖啦對那王智英委員講的是臨時托育啦對 零拖就是剛剛我們有說明就是不代表是定點零拖對 臨時托育裡面其實定點零拖或者是保姆到家裡面去零拖都是零拖的一種好"},{"start":7261.609,"end":7289.546,"text":"我再次發言 其實用意是在於說 因為臨時托育本身 雖然也是托育的一部分 可是我們也知道如果這樣訂的話 到時候針對於臨時托育 不管是訂聯 聯托或者是其他聯托方式 那在處理的部分有沒有造成會因為沒有入法的情形之下 導致在地方機關處理的時候呢 會造成無法確實的執行"},{"start":7297.833,"end":7313.064,"text":"來 請說明如果我們在前面剛剛保留條文如果有把它要列進去我們在這裡就會再增加它的執掌這樣子好那我們現在就是先把那個居家托育服務中心的這個先列入"},{"start":7319.117,"end":7341.396,"text":"我們是不是在第三款後面增加第四款直轄市頓浩縣市居家托育服務中心之監督檢查及輔導然後原來的第四款就是順以為第五款"},{"start":7350.529,"end":7351.074,"text":"先把鞭筍剃掉"},{"start":7380.936,"end":7400.464,"text":"所以結論是什麼結論就是我們增加在直轄縣市的執掌裡面增加第四款就是直轄市對第六條直轄縣直轄市縣市居家托育服務中心之監督檢查及輔導"},{"start":7409.638,"end":7417.279,"text":"在第六條我們增加一個第五第幾款第四款第四款好第四款這邊我覺得OK好那各位有沒有其他意見"},{"start":7437.881,"end":7458.393,"text":"我們是做這樣調整跟增加第四款定點您拖要不要放到各縣市的這個業務執掌裡面這個我們也想一下好不好定點您拖是不是也要克制於地方政府要廣"},{"start":7459.767,"end":7472.68,"text":"廣設然後要他們要負責做什麼想一下對這個我們想一下想一下對好想一下那那就先保留還是還是可以馬上想出來"},{"start":7475.926,"end":7502.058,"text":"因為前面那一條保留還沒想出文字好 那就是應該講說定點零拖我們的定義是什麼那中央要負責什麼地方要負責什麼我們可能在全責分工上還沒有想清楚但現在才發現這個事情很重要對啊 所以我就問他要不要保留但是就是說一般的零拖一般就是保姆的還有這個中心或機構的服務的延伸就照一般的管理就好了但定點零拖"},{"start":7502.878,"end":7528.36,"text":"連人力都是流動來來支援的然後那個場所是臨時設置的或是不是一個固定的然後連來受託的人都是流動的所以他這一套規範應該是另外要想我們要怎麼分工然後要怎麼樣規範他的安全和品質這樣子所以需要想一下後來那我們先保留好不好好謝謝來繼續審查"},{"start":7532.501,"end":7554.021,"text":"接下來是第七條第七條委員的建議是要我們釐清諮詢會或審議會的目的性以及成員的組成應該要納入身心障礙團體的代表原住民的代表還有成員有沒有利益迴避的這個設計那跟委員報告我們"},{"start":7554.942,"end":7583.728,"text":"參照委員的意見我們大概想第一個大概是中央是設中央主管機關應召開托育諮詢會所以中央是托育的諮詢會然後地方是托育的審議會這樣子那另外一個就是身障的團體或原住民的代表我們是建議是不是可以就是如果有相關議題的再邀請他參加這樣子這大概是那利益迴避的這個部分因為行政程序法裡面其實就有關"},{"start":7584.648,"end":7609.688,"text":"就有對於各委員的利益迴避都有一個原則性的規定所以我們認為在托兒托法裡面可以不列入這個部分以上先做大體的說明詳細的文字我想我們因為有一點文字要修正所以請我們的組長說明一下第七條先說明一下現在是處理林淑敏委員所提的第七條不是院版的第七條"},{"start":7612.025,"end":7630.957,"text":"林委員的第七條我跟各位講一下因為那時候他的第七條是我保留的把林委員的第七條併入在我們院版因為都是談到收費跟代表的這個部分可以嘛就林委員的第七條可以跟院版的第七條就併案來討論啦可以啦好那就好"},{"start":7632.4,"end":7651.838,"text":"主席我們是不是可以說明一下我們院辦就參照委員的意見我們修了一些文字我們再請陳清惠委員第七條的第一項收費頓耗退費項目及調整原則前面還有一個收費頓耗退費"},{"start":7658.109,"end":7686.108,"text":"然後第二項與調整原則把逗點刪掉然後審定之後面的文字刪除第二項也有頓點的問題收費頓耗退費項目與調整原則審定之那以上做文字的修正"},{"start":7688.407,"end":7714.159,"text":"我這邊是想請問因為我們上次審查這一條的時候我們建議說審議會做得太少所以收費基準要讓審議會來討論然後你今天這個新的版本我有稍微看了一下這第一段跟第二段那我第一個問題是說你中央是要設諮詢會地方是要設審議會可是你中央這個諮詢會裡面負責的項目"},{"start":7717.64,"end":7743.294,"text":"很多其實是做審議所以看起來好像重複了尤其是在收費退費項目然後第二段也是在講收費退費項目基準對我會覺得你好像我覺得好像第一諮詢跟審議的權責沒有什麼差別然後第二你中央跟地方做的事情就重疊了"},{"start":7746.246,"end":7771.533,"text":"可以請主管機關解釋嗎跟委員說明第一項中央設諮詢會就是對於全國的不管是居家托育的一個收退費項目跟調整原則或者是托育機構的一個收退費項目原則上由中央來諮詢專家召開這樣的一個諮詢會議來定一個概括性的原則"},{"start":7772.273,"end":7799.162,"text":"那至於實際上地方政府他要召開托育審議會那就他轄內的依參考中央訂的這樣的一個收退費項目跟調整原則去訂定他自己轄內的一個收退費項目跟調整原則原則上是不太一樣因為畢竟地方政府他的一個狀況啊還有他的一個經濟的一個狀況也是不太一樣收退費也不太一樣那像所"},{"start":7802.135,"end":7815.885,"text":"等一下 請說陳委員沒有 我大概理解了他的意思是說中央的諮詢會訂的是收費的原則然後地方的審議會訂的是收費的標準跟價格"},{"start":7817.932,"end":7842.592,"text":"好 請您說我本來是想再解釋清楚一下因為這個是民間托盟的版本就是說中央為了顧及到勞動的權益和勞動的條件其實是希望要有一些基本的品質但是中央我們知道地方的差異很大所以我們只訂出一個Range然後訂一個原則真正的價格還是交給地方"},{"start":7843.732,"end":7865.438,"text":"這個政府去定因為地方政府還有地方議會可以把關所以就讓他們就因地去質疑這樣子但是中央定原則才能確保有基礎的這個勞動條件能保障那另外呢我這個改章我沒有我已經可以接受但是最後一個就是說因為我們還是有議決的事項就是說我們會定一個參考的上下線啊"},{"start":7866.278,"end":7893.79,"text":"那我們訂出收費退費的這個項目那其實基本上還是有一個議決的一些事情在裡面所以我還是想我們是不是諮詢會因為諮詢會三個字真的是太像太像詢問的屬性了所以我們是不是能把它改成諮議會然後地方是審議會最後由地方決定所以是他們去審議通過的標準收費標準但我們政策上還有個諮議會"},{"start":7896.011,"end":7901.981,"text":"比較不會難聽 像叫來 像跟人家諮詢而已該罪之議會啦 還是有意決的嘛好來 可以了喔來 請"},{"start":7911.44,"end":7937.57,"text":"谢谢赵伟那个针对第7条因为我现在算是使用者之一这个我想问一下就是这个费用的订定跟审议或者是资议反正就是这个价格订定的部分有没有说多久一定要召开一次还是说这订了之后就订下去因为我看条文里面好像没有针对多久要来滚动检讨一次针对这个会议多久开一次的部分好像没有明定出来"},{"start":7938.15,"end":7956.425,"text":"要不要明定或是说多久要一次要一个调整的机制不然有时候物价调涨或者是基本薪资的调涨等等的都会影响到工作的权益还有说影响到家庭我们要支出这笔费用家庭的权益所以我觉得在时间表上面是不是应该要把它明定进去以上"},{"start":7959.841,"end":7972.409,"text":"好謝謝這個應該在質疑審議的組成辦法裡面你們要去明定出來嘛對不對應該是這樣嘛對請說明還是在說明裡面你們會去會去表述清楚第13條是針對於拘托的收費是有說要每兩年定期檢討那對於托育機構好像目前是沒有特別"},{"start":7997.472,"end":8002.575,"text":"就是機構目前我們是沒有訂啊那保姆的那個部分居托人員我們是有說沒兩年那機構要不要訂要不要訂一個時間還是都不用我們我們檢討的時候他們不會連動嗎那我們訂這個要幹嘛如果我們訂出來就最低的可能地板就往上提高了那他們不用跟著連動嗎"},{"start":8029.062,"end":8046.401,"text":"自然本來就要了吧你說我們的Range定程說23000到38000你本來是可能21000到35000你應該自然也可以連滾動了吧"},{"start":8062.833,"end":8065.027,"text":"我們就增加一個就是定期檢討"},{"start":8070.117,"end":8092.523,"text":"抱歉 赵伟请说明你们刚刚讲是第13条是不是如果你们第13条就提到了只有居家托育服务收费部分但是在外机构的部分好像就没有但是对家长来说他们在决定要送或不送或是怎么样处理这个事情的时候其实他是会一并考量的不会只考虑单一个项目去所以如果要"},{"start":8093.583,"end":8112.154,"text":"檢討的話就像剛剛淑芬委員所說的就是應該是連動的一起去討論才對不能只有訂定一個那個居家托育服務而已吧是不是再加一句按照委員的指示我們再加對 我們再加一句然後就是把剛剛說的"},{"start":8120.823,"end":8145.791,"text":"加在第二項可以嗎那個後面那個省定之逗點我再念一次文字好中間的那個並先不用我覺得這個字眼一會看就覺得好像不用你看中央要訂出一個那個"},{"start":8146.79,"end":8167.264,"text":"收費的原則 項目還有調整的原則還有這個收費退費其他相關反正中央訂一個Range兩年一次那地方要做什麼地方要依據中央所訂定的收費退費項目和調整原則去審定所以其實他已經連動了"},{"start":8169.245,"end":8191.425,"text":"我也認為不用加 為什麼因為以前 因為有時候浮動很大你反而定期兩年然後中間如果中間有一些要調整的時候反而事實上是動不了因為以前我們在地方都很快按照一些他們目前現在收的甚至孩子量的這些去做考量所以就會有時候事實上是搞半年就是會去討論它是至少兩年啦"},{"start":8192.626,"end":8215.143,"text":"對我意思是說至少兩年要動一次當然中間不是叫兩年才能調是說至少兩年要檢討一次概念是這樣子還好現在是說這個好像不用增加因為地方就必須要依據中央的調整而跟著調整了下面那一項顯然就是有機構的費用在27條也有講"},{"start":8244.839,"end":8244.859,"text":"好"},{"start":8246.582,"end":8260.206,"text":"委員我們說明一下就是我們剛剛因為第一個是那個我們本來中央的是托育的諮詢會改成諮議會所以我們後面的第三項也要並同調整文字諮詢會改成諮議會第四項也是諮詢會要改成諮議會"},{"start":8265.848,"end":8292.54,"text":"那第二個部分是我們市居托人員是規定應製第13條行政院版本第13條是至少每兩年要調整這個就要檢討那自然中央的這個資議會自然是因為我們中央的資議會會討論的是整個托育就是居家托育跟托育機構的收退費的項目跟一些原則的部分自然會在這個會議裡面就會討論這件事"},{"start":8294.921,"end":8321.763,"text":"所以它是連動的因為我們在中央的資議會裡面的任務裡面其實就是有訂定居家托育的收退費項目及調整原則還有托育機構的收退費對 所以托育機構會在中央的資議會裡面也會被討論那地方會依據中央討論的結果來制定它的價格這樣子"},{"start":8325.609,"end":8347.539,"text":"收賄可能就兩年至少兩年檢討一次嘛對不對這個是應該沒問題連動啦剛剛黃委員問的應該是兩件事情第一件事這個收賄的事情應該法律諮詢就有明確了啦另外一個是多久開一次會因為開會不是只有在講這個收賄的標準而已啦那我是說在竹章城裡面"},{"start":8349.2,"end":8354.205,"text":"沒辦法裡面是不是可以去明定出來就審議會還是質疑會多久得開一次會啦"},{"start":8359.403,"end":8362.824,"text":"跟委員說明不管是中央的托育之議會或者地方的托育審議會原則上我們都會訂要點來做處理那在要點裡面就會訂幾年來做那個成員的一個邀請"},{"start":8388.892,"end":8415.42,"text":"對啦 所以我特別這樣講啦要不要再說明啦 要不要再補充啦好 黃委員這樣可以啦齁可以啦齁 OK 好 謝謝好 那各位針對第七條林署委員的版本跟現在的版本 並案討論然後修正後的條文草案各位看有沒有其他意見是來 請陳召集委員謝謝 請教一下如果改成資議會是很OK的那下面的所有的諮詢也要改成資議嗎"},{"start":8416.758,"end":8438.016,"text":"全改了後面那個下面那個開發諮詢調協調之意宣導開發訂定是那上面那因為我在看這邊沒調整有我們剛剛有說明下面要並同調整螢幕上還沒好那要調整這裡還是諮詢"},{"start":8445.705,"end":8452.568,"text":"他的任務還是諮詢可是委員會才是叫做資議會這樣子 任務還是諮詢會議委員會的名稱叫資議會任務負責被諮詢還有其他"},{"start":8473.427,"end":8485.999,"text":"沒有了沒有 那我們文字就照這樣來修正好 那我們第7條還是民主委員跟行政院的版本並案討論就是依照行政院版本在文字在修正後通過好 謝謝來繼續審查"},{"start":8489.582,"end":8508.072,"text":"接下來大概是有林淑芬委員有提到的這個林淑芬委員是第13條 王玉銘委員是48條 顏寬恆委員是48條等的那我想大家關心的大概是要求家長應該要參加親子活動"},{"start":8508.852,"end":8531.42,"text":"然後對那另外有提到的是對於這個不利處境的家長會不會有壓力不宜強制那另外也規範了這個家長的責任的宣示性而且沒有罰條那可以斟酌這個必要性那還有就是針對於托育服務的托育人員兒童家長主體的三者"},{"start":8532.08,"end":8551.073,"text":"那這個條文的目的是要科與家長應盡的義務雖然沒有罰則但是專業從業人員可以依照本條請家長配合的這個條文的部分那原來我們行政院的版本的條文是沒有這一條的那我們的建議是"},{"start":8553.87,"end":8566.762,"text":"可以參採各委員的意見我們增加了那只是調次的部分我們可能要到時候整個版本的編排要做一點調整這樣子那我們把條文也說明一下"},{"start":8569.105,"end":8587.205,"text":"是 谢谢委员的条文那我们中整了各位委员的一个版本我们的文字在荧幕上就是儿童支法定代理人或实际照顾儿童之人应依托育书面契约规定缴交托育相关费用"},{"start":8587.945,"end":8610.377,"text":"及提供預防接種資料與兒童有特殊身心健康狀況時應告知居家托育人員或托育機構必要時並提供相關健康狀況資料那第二項是兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人這邊要多一個逗點應盡量配合參與托育機構所舉辦之輕職活動"},{"start":8614.747,"end":8640.738,"text":"及因受託需要協助兒童特殊需要舉辦之相關個案研討活動那上次第一輪審查的時候因為委員對於我們要求家長的一些強度有所保留認為家長可能他也有時候沒有辦法去配合所以才在第二項的部分著作一些文字的調整跟修正那以上說明"},{"start":8643.326,"end":8669.305,"text":"請澄清衛委員這邊有講到說會請法定代理人就是家長提供健康資料預防接種資料給托育機構但我是希望建議衛福部應該針對這個條文訂出一個健康告知的範本因為家長也許他不知道哪些東西是需要讓機構或者是這個保姆知道的就是比如說你可以用勾選的 明訂"},{"start":8670.666,"end":8699.173,"text":"一定要告知他有沒有高風險的癲癇啊嚴重心臟病啊產痘症啊食物過敏啊而不是讓他自由行政你會有個版本嗎有跟委員說明我們現在托育中心的定型化契約範本應記載及不得記載事項裡面的一個附件就是兒童的健康狀況的一個情形都有勾選的那個項目深入委員所提的那種健康狀況都有列舉"},{"start":8700.473,"end":8722.802,"text":"原本你就會再把他帶到新的這個托育專法的執法裡面嗎他本來定型化契約就要簽了好所以家長就要提供謝謝抱歉我再有一個小小的意見就是說我們都知道說兒童的法定代理人應該要來參加盡量來參加我們"},{"start":8726.738,"end":8747.085,"text":"不管是為這個案研討或者是說所辦的輕職活動但我們想在苛責政府的責任在裡面所以我在想說各級主管機關隊友 特殊身心健康狀況兒童的法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人應主動提供資源協助他們 協助之"},{"start":8750.222,"end":8776.65,"text":"就是說因為這些是框在身心障礙的小孩那他們的家長對自己的孩子本身也應該有責任以外但我們希望主管機關對於這樣的孩子的代理人或者是說實際照顧這些孩子的人也應該要主動去提供資源來協助他們這樣子其實宣示一個政府對這樣的小孩的照顧的這個投入"},{"start":8777.29,"end":8780.472,"text":"和主動的這個服務的概念好跟委員說明因為我們這一條的主體看起來是因為第一項第二項都是兒童的法定待人或是依照顧之人那委員剛剛提到的那個比較是各級主管機關所以我們而且各級主管機關我們本來在機關的權限裡面就在就應該要做這件事所以我們沒有把它列在這裡以上說"},{"start":8806.588,"end":8831.202,"text":"沒關係因為機關的權限都已經有了既然機關權限都有這個職責了那我們是不是也是放上去他可以確定我們宣示這個法律裡面對於這樣的兒童的照顧的這個重視的程度所以我們就各級主管機關對於這樣的父母或是實際照顧的人都應該主動提供資源協助再加強強化一下就好了好請王議員回"},{"start":8834.11,"end":8863.065,"text":"我想這一條當時我們提出來主要的確就是希望針對孩子的法定代理人或實際照顧之人他也有一些責任其實應該要跟這個提供出來所以這一條的法例比較是針對孩子的法定代理人跟實際照顧兒童之人應該要做的事情那剛剛淑芬委員講的那個那個應該是政府其他本來政府對於其他有特殊需求的孩子就有責任嗎"},{"start":8864.105,"end":8870.997,"text":"那我是覺得放在這一條這個法醫上面這樣可能會有點混淆可能可以放在其他的地方"},{"start":8873.238,"end":8898.816,"text":"就是林淑芬委員剛剛講的這一條如果要我們可能是要放在第四條因為我們在第四條的第三項就是第三項講的是政府對於離島偏鄉原住民地區因為經濟身心文化族群而有協助需求的要優先提供適當的托育服務那我們是不是如果要我們就是還有就是提供資源把它加在這裡可能會比較"},{"start":8901.18,"end":8918.421,"text":"對 但是因為我們在講對於這個特殊身心狀況的兒童的話如果是強調對特殊身心狀況的兒童的話那就是放在這裡那我是覺得雖然前面都在講他的家長有什麼責任要配合這個托育的需求"},{"start":8919.382,"end":8940.299,"text":"要來做但是我想主管我的意思是說其實身心健康有問題的小孩的家長其實是很辛苦的而他們也需要得到政府的支援支持的所以就放在這裡是為了表達這種概念但主體上沒有應該是看得很清楚"},{"start":8940.959,"end":8962.199,"text":"法律在看的人看到這個身心有問題的小孩然後就看到這裡不是只有家長有責任我們放在這裡是說我們看這個法好像說我這麼弱勢我要去上班你要叫我來顧這個小孩參加這個活動其實我們是希望這裡顯示出一個政府是有配套的立法的人也知道這個社會的困難的"},{"start":8963.16,"end":8979.475,"text":"立法的人也看到這個社會的困難所以立法的人其實有負責任的要求政府要克制政府要拿出誠意來幫助他們的如果放在這裡這樣是比較完整的一個概念跟委員報告我們其實第四條其實它就是有因為經濟生形"},{"start":8980.856,"end":9008.673,"text":"他不是只有原住民所以你是對廣泛的而言所以我身心其實就是喊掛了因為我們這邊也沒有特別寫對身心障礙就是特殊需求或者是第四條的文字就是我們建議文字是可以加再加一些應優先提供適當托育對啦我知道但是我的講的意思你可能聽不懂就是說你看我父母為什麼要來學校說規定我強定規定我一定要來你看"},{"start":9009.306,"end":9026.333,"text":"而託罰第幾條就是在這裡規定但他看到這個規定的時候家長看到這個規定會至少會看到裡面寫到政府有責任要照顧啊政府有責任啊他不用再去翻到第四條因為家長不會再翻到前面去看完整整部法律"},{"start":9027.017,"end":9045.029,"text":"用這一條法律的人家長不會再去看前面的法律所以放在這裡是可以讓家長知道說那你要求我家長要有照顧的責任那你政府的責任也要跟著進來就是說小孩是家庭的也是國家的這樣那個概念放在第四條的意義就不一樣了"},{"start":9046.11,"end":9069.393,"text":"第四條是講針對托育資源的提供但是這裡不是喔這裡是講的是托育之後才有的問題托育之後產生的問題那國家其實我們會來協助你家長的是代表國家要來協助你這個家長的所以身心健康的小孩是家庭的也是國家的責任"},{"start":9072.281,"end":9099.048,"text":"好 請王智勳委員 完了之後再請王玉敏委員謝謝主席 我會贊成林淑恩委員的講法還有希望為什麼要放在這一條的具體的理由因為第四條基本上是比較廣泛型的那並不是針對於我們希望在這一條所要強調的當這個兒童有比較特別身心狀況的時候"},{"start":9101.289,"end":9115.525,"text":"他需要放在這個地方比較清楚的告訴國人說如果這個兒童有特殊狀況的情形之下呢其實我們相關的單位應該要主動的提供資源來協助他"},{"start":9116.566,"end":9139.513,"text":"這概念上還是不太一樣那這一條如果是放在這個部分的話呢他可以更有宣示性而且這個能實質上來協助到這個有身心狀況特殊需求者因為第四條講的是比較屬於全面型而且他不會針對於身心狀況有特別需求的情形下所要提供的一些法案的內容以上"},{"start":9143.974,"end":9161.831,"text":"好 那請說好 那我們是不是就是加在我們行政院擬定的版本的第二項的後面了就是舉辦之相關個案研討活動逗號各級主管機關應主動提供資源協助之這樣子"},{"start":9173.328,"end":9197.384,"text":"所以他還是 你們現在是要來黃委員 黃委員完之後再換黃委員 抱歉各級機關對法定代理人或實際照顧的人應主動提供資源協助資格否則各級主管機關要提供給誰"},{"start":9201.242,"end":9203.977,"text":"黃琳好嗎 不好意思 王媛好"},{"start":9204.988,"end":9230.542,"text":"我覺得剛剛那個衛福部有講第4條的部分你們可以再修正文字嘛對不對就是說針對已經受託剛剛其實大家一直在癥結說已經收託之後會不會再針對特殊的孩子提供相關的資源那我個人是覺得因為看法是要看整部法就是說我們在每一個法條其實都有他這個法條最主要的"},{"start":9231.122,"end":9254,"text":"目的是要做什麼事情那這邊講的是家長的責任那前面第四條講的是政府對於弱勢或特殊需求孩子的責任那如果是第四條沒有講清楚我就建議在第四條我們文字把它修正的更清楚要不然如果是這樣子的修方式我就擔心說我們會很多跌床架我就講過了然後再講一遍就是"},{"start":9254.58,"end":9274.882,"text":"就只是因為擔心說沒有看到法條但修法我個人還是認為是整部法的概念我們每一條法我們定的都有它的目的那不應該是重複就是說應該就是以清晰為原則所以我個人還是主張說應該是回到第四條如果法例不夠清楚"},{"start":9275.362,"end":9292.978,"text":"沒有去宣示剛剛淑芬委員特別提到的我們針對特殊需求的孩子政府的責任跟角色在哪裡那應該是回到那一條那一條都是你政府的責任就把它寫清楚就好那我覺得這樣子每一個條次會比較清晰不會跌床架屋這是我的建議 謝謝"},{"start":9294.039,"end":9309.601,"text":"好謝謝來請黃委員再換林業景委員再換林淑媛謝謝好謝謝昭偉其實我的意見其實跟黃委員一樣就是說其實這個法律條文裡面我覺得要明確一點明確化他的責任因為第四條如果本身就是在定義政府的責任"},{"start":9310.422,"end":9331.032,"text":"那如果觉得看到我们现在讨论这条文就政府的事情做不够那应该把这个做不够部分再回去放到第4条里面的明确政府到底应该提供什么样的资源跟责任那第5条不是第5条我们现在讨论这个不知道方案哪有条文这个条文的本身他的目的就是针对法定代理人也就是家长就是这个"},{"start":9331.832,"end":9352.701,"text":"这个家长他应该要进到什么样子他做什么事情所以他做事情定义完之后如果后面又去跟他说那剩下的这个个体主管机关要主动提供资源协助资那如果个体主管机关没有提供资源协助资的话他是不是不用做了如果有些比较调皮的家长会想说你没有提供我协助我这些资源所以我没办法做"},{"start":9353.721,"end":9377.906,"text":"会变成这样子所以我觉得说第四条跟这一条如果不知道放哪里你干脆把它放在四之一或怎么样我不知道但是我觉得家长的责任跟政府的责任要把它分开来去定义当然整部法这样才会比较完整才不会前面讲了后面又讲那是不是后面有其他的其他单位有责任的时候又要把前面政府责任再带进来所以以上是我的想法如果主管机关"},{"start":9379.971,"end":9404.913,"text":"如果这样修法大家讲几句话就变形容词放那么多形容词进去我觉得法的这个文字太我个人认为法还是要明确一点那简洁一点那一目了然把大家各自应该要处理的状况讲清楚而不是不断的在重复在讲同一件事我就不知道哪里重复了我很不客气的讲我在这里省了这么多个月我不知道我们这里跟哪一条重复你为什么这样子扣我们帽子说我们是形容词"},{"start":9405.653,"end":9430.09,"text":"為什麼說我們重複呢第四條講什麼第四條在講說政府對處於離島偏遠及原住民地區或經濟身心弱勢的人要提供適當的托育服務而這一條在講什麼你們在第四條裡面有講說離島的家長 偏遠的家長 原住民的家長你們在必須一定要克責喔要告訴我們你們有什麼需求然後你們辦活動一定通通都要來你們有嗎 沒有"},{"start":9432.392,"end":9440.417,"text":"這裡講的是說身心有問題的小孩的家長為什麼要特殊寫這一條為什麼要寫這一條法律為什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":9442.018,"end":9451.187,"text":"為什麼你知道嗎當初我們在審的時候都講過你知道嗎你不知道那你在這裡講我們說我們是形容詞這裡講的是說因為實務上真的遇到這種問題所以需要訂這一條法律來釐清責任然後在這裡克責父母的責任我們在這種狀況裡面他是收拖以後了"},{"start":9463.298,"end":9492.047,"text":"收拖以後那我們希望對於這樣弱勢這特別它不是一般的弱勢而已你要求家長這麼強度的責任那你政府也要給資源進來我的意思是這樣子而第四條講什麼第四條講的是抽象型的普遍型的第四條才是形容詞才是概念而已第四條放在第四條都是抽象型的是形容詞是概念放在這裡是具體有作用的作用法"},{"start":9492.927,"end":9518.713,"text":"第四條像是基本法的概念而已好了蘇貝爾我們大家是在討論因為你們先羞辱我們我的版本我的版本老實說不是我個人的意見是後面所有第一線從業的人員在托盟兒童托育聯盟裡面他們整合出來的意見是第一線的工作人員看到的問題他們看到問題以後他們認為體制上他們覺得怎麼設計比較好"},{"start":9522.594,"end":9537.427,"text":"不代表我一個人而你在這裡說我們是形容詞我們在這裡跌床駕屋你說我們在這裡訂一些沒有用的法律條文我當然生氣我不是為我自己生氣不是為我自己的版本生氣"},{"start":9538.408,"end":9561.449,"text":"我為你們對於這樣子不了解不懂然後對第一線的人這樣子羞辱而訂出來第一線的人他們建議的條文你這樣羞辱我們而生氣好了 淑芬委員我們現在在討論是說應該要訂在這邊還是第四條因為剛剛主管機關也有講嘛第四條也可以修正文字嘛我們可以兩個版本就是一起來看啦不要生氣啦大家好好來討論"},{"start":9563.03,"end":9587.921,"text":"我就說第四條因為第四條你沒有叫離島的人沒有叫原住民的人說你的家長要有什麼強度這麼高強度要求人家家長來配合對聲音障礙小孩為什麼這樣子因為講的這麼具體是因為他們發現很多實務面的問題包括罕見的疾病他沒有告知因為告知了人家就不要人家就不要幫你顧小孩了嘛那你跟你告知了以後他的確不要的時候那怎麼辦"},{"start":9588.976,"end":9608.602,"text":"那罕見疾病或身心障礙的家長他們那些家長就要上班你強迫他們一定要來他要怎麼辦他要怎麼來你政府要給資源啊我才宣示說這一條要有配套是政府要有責任不是小孩的家長有責任而已國家要責任特殊責任進來"},{"start":9609.762,"end":9631.414,"text":"可是你離島偏鄉原住民小孩家長你不會這樣子要求他他是抽象型的基本法的概念是第4條而作用法的概念這裡是很強度的作用法強制他要來那你當然是要配套進來是這樣子而那些家長你叫他看你整部法律他只會問說為什麼一定要來"},{"start":9632.441,"end":9662.001,"text":"他怎麼會去看 拿整部兒童托育服務法來看呢不可能嘛那些家長怎麼會看整部法律 不可能嘛原木求魚嘛他看到這一條學校和機構通知他說你一定要來根據這一條那家長他的法律的可及性你要讓他看到其實家長會說家長不是只有家長有責任而已國家也有責任立法律的人已經清楚寫在這裡了我們立委就是要求國家也要有責任啊"},{"start":9663.622,"end":9686.083,"text":"謝謝 謝謝 來 藝術委員補充我們就處理 好 來我覺得衛福部可以講一下因為既然是個案研討就不會是活動通常個案研討大家都是會議可是你們用活動比較想說到底個案研討還有什麼其他的狀況嗎否則為什麼用活動這兩個字那我也同意淑恩委員提的前面第四條講的事實上是很大的東西"},{"start":9687.156,"end":9709.071,"text":"這邊很清楚的是你要法定代理人配合這麼多事情可是資源又不給到位那他後續怎麼去做處理反而會變很不清楚反而在這邊寫的話是相對的事實上是清楚讓人家知道說我家長配合了可是後邊沒有資源的話我當然也做不了事可是在這邊明定政府應該要給什麼樣的一個資源以上好 陳昭志委員"},{"start":9713.442,"end":9736.028,"text":"主席我們剛剛在討論的應該不是說內容有什麼欠缺是一個就是在什麼最適的位置把這些觀念帶進來非常重要那我不好意思那個林書緯您是很資深我現在再看一下您第13條因為您第13條修正動議33頁這邊你一開頭就說兒童是法定代理人或實際教育長因履行下列義務"},{"start":9737.208,"end":9764.044,"text":"那我的確作為一個非常之前不好意思就是我來讀這個法條的時候就這一條應該是都在談兒童法令待人實際照顧的人都要履行這個部分那政府的責任各級主管機關對於前項加在這個位置我真的讀起來感覺有一點點就是跑出一條跟這個一開頭開宗明義講的話就是有一點點違和"},{"start":9765.325,"end":9779.846,"text":"但是這個內容是非常的重要因為對爸爸找寮兒童等等這個需要給他非常多的這個特別的協助所以我個人老實說我個人覺得如果用法的性質或說王一鳴有用的法義的意思"},{"start":9780.887,"end":9797.359,"text":"這個內容大家沒有人反對就是說大家沒有人反對但是那個位置好像就從一開始讀在那個法條裡面從開始讀第一條第一項的時候就覺得好像下面這個位置好像可能有更好的位置更好的地方可以放置不好意思 謝謝因為這是兩個委員的提案的草案就王委員跟林委員是不是顯示機關有要在"},{"start":9811.127,"end":9833.675,"text":"餵福部我請他解釋那個活動這兩字他這個齁 這個因為你還 對 活動上面叫親子活動下面叫個案研討活動那是不是親子活動跟個案研討活動各級主管機關都應主動提供資源協助"},{"start":9840.931,"end":9855.504,"text":"沒有 通話個案研討大概不會是活動所以我們加一個頓豪因為有時候我們針對特殊的人會開個案研討來討論怎麼協助他那另外也可能會有活動對 那你就加一個頓豪否則很怪"},{"start":9869.783,"end":9895.405,"text":"請說明就我們行政部門來講一般我們在體力裡面會是把同樣的主持的事情放在一起所以剛剛有建議是說如果是各級政府機關要協助是放在第四條裡面我們是覺得是它其實也不是只有原住民地區因為我們後面其實第四條的後面的條文是因為經濟身心其實身心裡面就含了"},{"start":9895.825,"end":9912.234,"text":"是特殊兒童或者是文化我們如果是放在第四條的話我們就建議是極主動我反對個人覺得第四條就是一個抽象型的概念一個基本法的概念而我們這裡就是要講國家國家的責任"},{"start":9915.095,"end":9928.926,"text":"我不知道為什麼你們這麼那個主持就不一樣了為什麼一定同一條裡面不能有兩個以上的主持嗎讓他們講完啦書分會員讓他們講完你們把修正的文字就是比較清楚的陳述出來好不好給會員看一樣休息溫中好謝謝而且第四條的主持是托育服務也不是政府我們這裡的主持是政府"},{"start":9945.253,"end":9951.318,"text":"第四條的主持是托育服務也不是政府 騙笑欸"},{"start":10459.841,"end":10475.377,"text":"好我們繼續開會那有沒有修正的版本可以好來主席我們秀一下我們剛剛修正的文字就是我們增加在第三項這樣子這是第七條嗎 第幾條"},{"start":10479.237,"end":10493.61,"text":"調文我們要順一下好就是我們增加在第三項就是各級主管機關對前項兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人應主動提供資源協助之請問委員這樣可以嗎可以前兩項還前項"},{"start":10507.024,"end":10535.931,"text":"對 前項 對 沒錯好 可以我再說一次其實我們這條就是希望說這個讓這個放在這裡讓這些身心障礙的小孩的家長他看法律的可敬性也會比較高一點那他也會看到國家的責任法律的可敬性這點是很重要的他不是一個整體的宣示而已他在這裡就明確規定了謝謝好 各位有沒有其他意見"},{"start":10537.677,"end":10552.925,"text":"如果沒有 這個調次要就是我們到時候要順一下看放在哪裡比較適合好那這樣還是 剛剛林月琴委員剛剛提到的我們就是再加一個就是個案研討燈號活動這樣子 我知道那前面我們在標點符號做一點調整原則通過了那調次就授權我們這個議事組來做調整了好謝謝那我們繼續審查"},{"start":10568.073,"end":10582.852,"text":"接下來王玉美委員跟閻寬委員等非常關心到兒童健康的這個條文行政院這邊我們大概是在第一個是剛剛前面就是有一些要備的資料我們其實放在剛剛的條文裡面"},{"start":10584.654,"end":10612.82,"text":"那第二個是我們在行政院版本的53條裡面對於拘托跟托育機構也要協助做一些這個衛生保健的這個宣導那另外委員也很關心個資的這個問題我們也會在我們的這個行政院版本的54條裡面其實有一些個資的保密的義務還有就是預防接種的資料提供給這個托育機構這個我們剛剛有在第一議款裡面有明定"},{"start":10613.24,"end":10622.746,"text":"那我們在定型化契約裡面也都會有把它條列式的列出來要提供哪一些的資料的這個部分我們有參裁委員的建議 以上做說明好 王委員可以接受了所以這我們就不予採納好 謝謝接下來繼續審查"},{"start":10633.837,"end":10657.813,"text":"好那接下來的是王育民委員跟顏寬恆委員等委員的提案是他們是第10條就是兒童滿兩歲前三個月要提供將轉嫌到教保服務機構的這個部分那我們是認同那我們會在行政院版本的第21條的說明欄裡面會陣列說明一定要做好這個轉介"},{"start":10659.48,"end":10682.846,"text":"好 王委員可以接受我們就不採納好 那接下來也是王育民委員 顏寬恆委員等的提案就是第十一條就是希望能夠增加需要協助兒童的能夠有一些適當的補助的部分那我們在行政院版本的第九條第一項已經有相關的規定"},{"start":10683.462,"end":10698.06,"text":"好 還可以接受 一樣我們就不予採納 繼續那接下來是第12條就是對於這個托育人員的這個賠利的這個部分我們也是在行政院版本的第5條第6條都有相關的規定"},{"start":10699.11,"end":10713.005,"text":"好不予採訪可以接受了謝謝好那接下來是第10委員的第13條的是那個增加互助式托育機構跟公共化居家托育"},{"start":10715.147,"end":10733.076,"text":"服務者的健康檢查跟意外責任保險的這個部分那由於這個部分是我們會就是因為他涉及到經費的這個補助我們原則要尊重地方主管機關因地制宜的這個規劃可以接受我建議一樣不予採納"},{"start":10734.864,"end":10761.785,"text":"我們繼續審查就是林淑芬委員所提的第15條接下來是林淑芬委員等所提案的第15條那主要是談到的是中央應該要訂定居家托育服務中心規標準一致的處理原則那另外也是要考慮考量相關辦理事項法制作業費時那是不是可以採用行政規則的要點或者是處理原則的這個部分"},{"start":10762.305,"end":10789.114,"text":"那我們行政部門的考量是因為我們未來對於居家托育服務中心的屬性已經是行政機關委託做部分公權力的這個轉移所以它已經是我們建議就是它不會是要辦理評鑑可是對於它相關的這個業務的其他的內容我們這個是剛剛我們監督檢查跟輔導我們剛剛其實是"},{"start":10791.775,"end":10816.835,"text":"剛剛有說明了監督檢查及輔導不得規避妨礙或拒絕那這些監督檢查輔導的這一些應遵循的事項要由中央主管機關定制這樣的概念"},{"start":10819.664,"end":10845.504,"text":"這是講地方政府嘛但是就是說那些監督檢查輔導地方政府各行去監督檢查輔導這些居托中心可是因為標準不一致然後輔導出來一樣合格可是品質可能會不一那所以我們才想說中央應該訂定居家托育服務中心的標準一致的處理原則"},{"start":10849.232,"end":10876.958,"text":"這就是中央應該定出這個標準一致的處理原則那我們是不是可以再加一個前兩項的監督檢查輔導及其他相關應遵循事項由中央主管機關定之對因為很常就是這個地方政府定的跟那個地方政府定的不一樣我們是要克責中央必須要有這個定出應遵循事項的責任這樣子"},{"start":10890.264,"end":10910.478,"text":"來學生機關請說明好那我們就增列第三項這樣子好那第三項就是前兩項監督檢查輔導及其他相關應遵循事項之辦法由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":10922.182,"end":10937.26,"text":"主席 來 請說我覺得這一條因為未來是講執行公權力所以不評鑑如果評鑑當然就是委由專業團體可是現在變成有的縣市也才一個拘托中心或者甚至兩個"},{"start":10939.182,"end":10955.832,"text":"那現在連監督怎麼會事實上我覺得你放監督坦白講專業機構去監督很怪吧你說檢查還勉強或甚至輔導還可以甚至這個是公權力的時候我認為應該監督檢查都不應該是專業團體應該是自己要去做"},{"start":10963.119,"end":10986.908,"text":"專業團體能做的就是輔導否則是牽扯到公權力專業機構有辦法有公權力去監督跟檢查我覺得這是非常怪的一件事情而且又不像托嬰中心這麼多家可能有個縣市可能三四百家這個就只有台北市最多也才12個行政區裡邊搞不好委託五六個單位那你怎麼會是要讓專業機構"},{"start":10989.249,"end":11009.827,"text":"那還有什麼公權力可以去所謂的監督檢查而且這檢查的不一致性也有可能很高輔導我就同意輔導他能不能更進步可是我不認為應該要監督跟檢查要放在可以由專業機構這我相當不同意以上好來 請說明"},{"start":11023.918,"end":11038.042,"text":"對那個委員剛剛提到就是說因為居托中心他是已經未來是要執行部分公權力嗎應該縣市政府自己直接的監督跟檢查那輔導是可以委託專業團體是好這個我們可以接受我們做文字的調整來可以馬上調嗎這家縣市主管機關"},{"start":11069.557,"end":11076.819,"text":"中心進行進度檢查"},{"start":11112.318,"end":11124,"text":"委員我們修正一下文字這樣子那個第一項的文字直轄市頓浩縣市主管機關應對居家托育服務中心"},{"start":11126.151,"end":11132.715,"text":"進行檢督及檢查逗點但得委託由專業團機構團體輔導之但不用並得委託專業機構盾號團體輔導之"},{"start":11156.348,"end":11156.369,"text":"嗯"},{"start":11194.604,"end":11222.431,"text":"來各位這樣文字在修正有其他意見嗎應對居家服務中心進行監督及檢查並得委託專業機構團體輔導之監督檢查輔導及其他相關應遵行實驗室辦法由中間主管機關定時好各位有沒有其他意見"},{"start":11225.54,"end":11236.558,"text":"沒有 沒有 那我們就依照這個林署委所提的文字所提的文字 討案啦 文字在做修正那調適 就授權議事組來做調整來通過 好 謝謝繼續審查"},{"start":11243.26,"end":11266.446,"text":"好 接下來大概是林月群委員還有林淑芬委員還有陳金輝委員 劉建國委員跟張雅玲委員 黃婕委員等對於我們就是相關的條文大概是有幾個抱歉 剛才併德委託啦好 OK 可不可以這樣過呢要開車要開那麼久"},{"start":11270.337,"end":11293.73,"text":"已經過緊忙了 你還要再叫他回來來 好來 繼續來所以關心的是地方政府辦理居托人員檢查的不經事先的通知還有居托的檢查是不是可以取代現在的訪視輔導以及增列公寓大廈管理人員不得拒絕訪視人員進去做檢查的部分還有就是居托中心的這個評鑑報告應該要公開"},{"start":11296.391,"end":11322.385,"text":"那剛剛居托中心我們剛剛有提到他將來是部分公權力的這個定位所以不會辦評鑑那第二個部分大概是委員建議是公益大廈的管理人員不得拒絕的部分那我們在條文裡面就是因為考慮到其實是任何人都不能拒絕那所以我們是把它改成是就調整為是任何人的文字那另外就是對於"},{"start":11326.839,"end":11346.517,"text":"剛剛評鑑的部分我們剛剛已經有說明那另外就是對於居托中心的人居托人員的評鑑考量到就全國的居家托育人員有兩萬三千多人其實我們是有一些困難的部分主要是因為居托人員他在家裡通常他登記這個"},{"start":11349.399,"end":11363.73,"text":"拿到證書之後他是一個人在家裡照顧小孩那我們通常憑藉由委員進到家裡會對於現場會做一些觀察跟提問我們又要求這個居托人員要專心托育所以委員進到"},{"start":11364.791,"end":11382.812,"text":"家裡面去做現場的勘察其實會影響到照顧小孩此外呢是會有感染管控這樣子的問題所以我們現在對於居托人員在家裡照顧小孩其實我們有蠻嚴格的一些規定的部分所以我們建議是還是用這個就是可能對於居托人員做評鑑"},{"start":11383.893,"end":11400.09,"text":"在我們行政部門在地方的執行上其實是會有相當的困難那另外委員也建議居托人員將來的違規是會有一些處罰跟祭典的這個機制那我們會在這裡做一些加強那這個在後面的條文會做一些報告跟說明"},{"start":11404.337,"end":11428.635,"text":"那個第二項為什麼後邊會寫成這樣就是說辦理居家托育人員的登記管理媒合輔導監督或檢查怎麼會監督或檢查監督跟檢查是不太一樣的概念所以我覺得第二項為什麼會這樣寫你到第三項的時候你就寫得清清楚楚的說對居家托育人員之監督及檢查"},{"start":11429.976,"end":11457.292,"text":"那我不知道監督跟檢察本來就是不太一樣的樣態為什麼會寫成貨所以我覺得第二項還是要用集以上好 那請信任人員這邊針對於貨貨集有沒有要如月全委員所認為的要把貨變成集請說明可以啊 我們參考委員的建議我們把貨改成集 沒有問題"},{"start":11459.254,"end":11487.095,"text":"第二項就把監督或檢查的部分變成監督級檢查那第四項一樣的就是說反而又漏掉了因為為什麼第一項居家托育人員的登記收托人數輔導管理廢紙登記這些你的檢查的頻率或怎麼檢查事實上應該也要用中央主管機關來定制所以是不是這個也把它加入檢查因為檢查的機制還是要去建立授權你那個授權執法去定"},{"start":11490.697,"end":11508.159,"text":"我們參裁委員的意見輔導頓耗管理及檢查管理管理頓耗檢查頓耗廢紙登記後面的文字就就按照現在的一個版本"},{"start":11510.78,"end":11529.215,"text":"第三項我有問題就是說第三項沒有罰則所以我們是不是應該新增罰則訂在第71條因為每一項規定都必須要有罰則他才會成為一個被看到的規定沒有罰則的規定等於沒有規定第三項有定義的規定嗎請說明應該要訂新增一個罰則訂在71條"},{"start":11541.623,"end":11567.891,"text":"我想跟委員確認一下是指說對於任何人的罰則嗎任何人居托人員不能規避妨礙或拒絕啊不得切顧長逆兒童啊如果他們這樣做要怎麼處罰啊要罰多少啊就是這後面的罰則對於違反第十一條第一項第二項第三項的第三項的人要怎麼處罰啊"},{"start":11569.386,"end":11572.727,"text":"不是在這裡的啦因為好像後面沒有對應的有第66條第66條有罰則66條的第一項罰1到5萬變現感"},{"start":11597.202,"end":11606.792,"text":"因為有時候我們就是新增了採取了我們的大家的意見然後新增了沒有對應的法則我看一下第66條第66條的第一項第一款我們這個是第幾條這個是第11條"},{"start":11614.459,"end":11637.763,"text":"第66條第一項第一款違反第11條第三項的規定規避妨害或拒絕之下是縣市主管好那我想那我想到這個東西不是只有居托人員那像是大公寓大廈的任何人任何人呢不一定是保姆保姆的先生啦保姆的小孩啦妨礙到的"},{"start":11648.233,"end":11671.924,"text":"我講一下先等他們確認一下如果還在確認當中的話那請黃委員因為我們的文字後面有寫任何人都不得規避妨礙或拒絕那任何人那個你們66條只有寫居家托育人員有以下列情形之一你們前面我們現在修的是任何人對啦就是居托66條是不夠的啊"},{"start":11677.658,"end":11699.718,"text":"黃偉提出來就是說任何人跟他涵蓋的內容因為主管機關現在說66條嘛但是66條開宗明義講的是居家土地人員有下列情形之一才有這個處罰但是我們現在訂的這個法規裡面我們的法律裡面是指任何人不得去隱匿不得去阻止不得去拒絕去妨礙在相關的檢查那這個任何人他如果做了"},{"start":11701.441,"end":11715.431,"text":"妨礙檢查包含說剛剛提到的管理員或是管委會的管理員然後保姆的先生保姆的小孩妨礙了要去檢查的人"},{"start":11716.727,"end":11738.732,"text":"也要處分那個跟委員說明我們這邊因為後面改的時候漏掉我們是不是在第66條的時候增加第二項對於任何人違反第11條第三項的一個處罰的一個規定那把原來66條的第二項再改列為第三項那文字的話我們等一下再處理"},{"start":11742,"end":11770.514,"text":"沒有會不會怪怪的因為你第66條不管第一款第二款你講是第一款第二款還是第二項第二項第二項你要是第二項不是第一款第二款嗎因為不管第幾款主持都是居家服務人托育人員只有第二項可以"},{"start":11773.931,"end":11798.881,"text":"如果照剛才的邏輯這個怎麼就又變成任何人了我是我是沒意見是可以的只要能夠管得到就好了法律都說任何人都不能結果沒有處罰的配套的話那任何人沒有意義了是變成第二項只能第二項或是"},{"start":11801.754,"end":11826.321,"text":"第66條你那個第一項前面居家托育人員那幾個字直接拿掉啊有下列情形之一你再動遷移法動全身你最好是另外再衝一下為什麼不行我們第66條本身就有保留嘛是不是到第66條的時候我們再重新回頭來看這些內容可以啊大家記得不要忘了不要漏了"},{"start":11827.045,"end":11851.363,"text":"好我相信大家記憶力都很好是老實說因為民間的社團在看著否則大家都知道可是我們都沒有抓到啊就是這個政府也沒抓到立委沒抓到就是人家在看我們IVOD的這些民間的團體在看的他們有看到啊我是怕到時候我們不要忘了人家看到跟我們講了我們等一下到時候不要忘了這樣子而已好遵照辦理"},{"start":11856.212,"end":11884.371,"text":"第66條我們要確認到時候在重新討論的時候需要把這些內容都要涵括進來那我們現在回到11條不曉得大家對11條在文字上還有沒有其他要再做確認或者是有意見的部分請問各位還沒有意見"},{"start":11885.822,"end":11896.348,"text":"沒有的話就按照我們修正行政院的提案條文然後經過大家討論的文字後修正後通過"},{"start":11911.083,"end":11922.432,"text":"剛剛我們召委主席是宣布12點休息不過因為我們在往下那個條實際上不太容易掌控所以我特別容我宣布現在休息 下午2點繼續開會好 謝謝"},{"start":11942.487,"end":11944.171,"text":"大家辛苦了"},{"start":19529.073,"end":19547.536,"text":"好 我們下午會議繼續開始繼續審查院版13條然後還有修正通有第一案 第四案 還有第六案那其他委員我們就不再贅述 謝謝來要不要請行政機關先說明一下"},{"start":19552.611,"end":19567.104,"text":"第13條是林淑芬委員陳昭芝委員跟王玉敏委員希望在中央要訂定收退費項目及基準那因為跟第7條是有聯動的關係所以我們在這一條的一個條文的文字"},{"start":19568.045,"end":19588.946,"text":"各位委員可以看那個螢幕上的文字那第一項我們的文字是居家托育服務收費及退費項目之訂定與調整原則由中央主管機關公告之然後新增第二項的一個跟院版不一樣的是新增第二項的一個文字中央主管機關應定期召開"},{"start":19591.042,"end":19611.362,"text":"定期招集直轄市縣市主管機關及相關學者專家民間團體代表審酌全國及各地區消費者物價指數家庭可支配所得托育人員勞動條件及其他相關因素進行研議訂定居家托育服務收費與退費基準之調整原則"},{"start":19612.483,"end":19641.439,"text":"然後第三項直轄市縣市主管機關因第一項公告之收費退費項目及調整原則並因轄區內居家托育服務收托方式及收費情形分區訂定托育服務收費及退費之基準並公告之那配合委員期待我們要兩年來定期檢討所以我們新增了第四項前項托育服務收費及退費之基準因至少每兩年定期檢討那以上說明"},{"start":19644.062,"end":19671.779,"text":"好 各位委員 針對這次林淑媛 林月琴委員還有陳伯源所提的這個修正動議整合的整合起來的版本的草案可以啦齁 有沒有其他一些 沒有好 好 謝謝那我們是不是就建議就依照這個行政院的提案然後林月琴及林淑媛委員修正動議修正後通過 好"},{"start":19674.594,"end":19674.934,"text":"來 繼續審查院版第16條來 請說明"},{"start":19698.979,"end":19728.139,"text":"第16條是前次審查的時候委員希望林淑芬委員希望我們可以調查居托中心協助居家托育人員的一個出險狀況所以我們調查了113年居托人員投保責任險跟居托中心協助出險的樣態那目前全國有17個縣市62處的居托中心都有補助居托人員保險費那投保者94%都有居托中心代為投保"},{"start":19728.719,"end":19757.541,"text":"如果發生事故的話也是居住中心代委協助出嫌所以本條在實務執行上並沒有困難那我們也遵照委員的意見修正第一項的文字居家托育人員應於收托兒童當日前完成投保專業責任保險那以上說明好這是有院本又林淑穩委員所的提案照這樣修正有沒有其他意見來請林淑穩委員"},{"start":19758.212,"end":19779.35,"text":"我們當初的爭議像是講說未透過中心投保要怎麼樣協助他們理賠是不是當時在談這個他不是透過縣市政府的居托中心而是自行去投保的"},{"start":19790.631,"end":19814.177,"text":"那跟委員說明那我們就是中央來要求地方政府協助跟居托中心來協助我們居家托人員投保因為這裡講的是說居托人員應該在收托當日前完成投保"},{"start":19815.242,"end":19840.018,"text":"那前項保險期間發生投保事故時居多中心應主動協助辦理賠償現在只有台南台南沒有補助所以那他們怎麼辦因為大部分都是有補助嘛目前就好像是沒有提供投保補助的是台南"},{"start":19860.888,"end":19878.229,"text":"那請說明因為就只有個別縣市我們中央就來協調地方政府來協助居托中心來辦理這件事情阿朗"},{"start":19879.932,"end":19893.098,"text":"不是 就是說你去他們如果他們不願意 我是說如果沒有你說你去協助他們是 那我們要強制所有每個人都必須在居托中心投保嗎主要的重點是沒有透過居托中心去投保的居托中心要如何協助辦理理賠"},{"start":19905.549,"end":19931.304,"text":"那我們也沒有強制規定一定要透過居托中心才能投保那沒有透過居家中心去投保的自己去投保要怎麼處理你說你去協調地方政府法律有沒有規定每個人都一定要透過居托中心去投保只有單一管道"},{"start":19937.461,"end":19940.927,"text":"來 給次長說明現在委員的意思就是說如果說有那個居多中心如果沒有的話該如何處理"},{"start":19950.427,"end":19973.101,"text":"我提供一個譬如說我們之前在馬太安如果說馬太安的志工如果說有是那個各目的事業那目的事業主管嘛沒有的話那就是其他他就是志工他自己去跟其他的那個保險公司來投保我們可不可以用這種方式那你條文要怎麼寫就其他保險公司可不可行用這種方式"},{"start":19974.99,"end":19978.852,"text":"居托中心它是一個組織嘛對不對居托中心有做這個 都做這個沒做這個你就個人去保養公司這樣可以嗎我們的意思是說居托人員"},{"start":19987.085,"end":20006.555,"text":"你在保姆啦你在收拓以前你就要完成保險嘛然後呢如果發生事情要理賠要給付的時候居托中心可以協助那個別保險的人目的事業主管機關還是各級政府也應該協助你的意思是這樣子嗎"},{"start":20012.467,"end":20022.152,"text":"這樣子那你還可以一種選擇就是說所有投保規定不要開放個體戶全部都透過居托中心去去保險可是你法條要寫上去啊單一規定沒有個體戶"},{"start":20030.72,"end":20046.932,"text":"也可以啊對啊是也可以啊因為我們現在九成四都是居托中心幫他們投保的不要說藥保人無法協助理賠這樣子而且那個委員我們建議就是那個賠償改成理賠因為保險保險是理賠不是賠償對對對"},{"start":20056.607,"end":20083.842,"text":"只要居托中心不是要保人的這一個條件要不要讓他存在就是九成幾都是居托中心當要保人嘛簽保險的時候都是居托中心對那剩下沒有的那少數雖然是少數但也還是存在那如果你們說我們不允許有少數我們全部都透過居托中心去投保那也是一種選項"},{"start":20087.219,"end":20102.954,"text":"需不需要再想一下你們需不需要再想一下我們問一下為什麼不要那麼急因為如果說人家真的有沒有辦法的事項沒有辦法把藥保人全部都變成居托中心有沒有這種可能"},{"start":20103.806,"end":20120.537,"text":"你現在強迫他全部都只能透過居托中心去投保這樣子會不會有特殊需求所以你們還是了解一下我們要確認一下藥保人是誰因為居托中心是代為投保他是不是藥保人這件事我們要先釐清先澄清"},{"start":20122.628,"end":20140.516,"text":"透過居托中心去投保的好像居托中心就是藥保的那什麼的好你們想一下主席先保留一下讓他們了解一下好了但是的確是存在沒有透過居托中心去投保的那這些人也應該要得到一些協助"},{"start":20142.553,"end":20168.734,"text":"辦理這個出嫌理賠的時候事實上每一件事情讓政府都知道每一個保姆都辦理過理賠那也比較可以掌握到底發生什麼事情了這樣子OK保留先保留主席因為好像監管會現場有有那個陳組長在陳組長可以稍微說明一下嗎好組長來監管會"},{"start":20175.444,"end":20197.771,"text":"跟主席還有各位委員報告依照目前那個托育人專業責任保險的條款要被保險人都是居家服務的那個提供者就是保姆對對所以那些所謂的協助應該就是幫助他們去投保但是要被保人都還是保姆本人那透過居托中心去投保是只是有補助這樣子嗎"},{"start":20200.242,"end":20218.287,"text":"只是有補助食物上的補助我不是很確定不過保單條款的部分就是透過居多中心去投保跟不透過居多中心去投保有什麼差異他這個第一項也不是說一定要透過居多中心喔各位再看一下提醒"},{"start":20221.833,"end":20247.102,"text":"那個這一條他的那個主要是希望所有居家托育人員都應該要去投那個專業的責任險嘛我覺得重點是在這邊啊那以下他講的就是是居家托育服務總他本來就是在服務保姆跟督導保姆嘛所以他去協助辦理那個理賠事宜所以原來委員提的那個版本其實就都OK啊"},{"start":20248.533,"end":20270.274,"text":"这个规范的主体对象应该是居家托育人员那居家托育服务中心只是从旁协助处理一些理赔或者是行政事宜而已刚刚金管会讲的很清楚嘛你主体对象其实是那个保姆对啊所以这一条这样修应该是没有什么问题对啊 所以委员的文字是可以"},{"start":20271.454,"end":20293.388,"text":"還是我們給他改成居托中心應提供必要協助因為你說居托中心要去幫他辦理理賠事宜主要是協助因為藥保人跟被保險人都是所以我們是不是改成居托中心應提供必要協助這樣就好了"},{"start":20296.912,"end":20321.575,"text":"就是說也不一定是居托中心也不一定是個別因為他每一個藥保人都是個別保姆啊是啊那居托中心他是協助辦理他相關的那個理賠的事宜啊居托中心就是提供必要的協助就是協助保姆了其實這邊主要是要協助居托人"},{"start":20323.399,"end":20330.946,"text":"事實上因為藥保人是保姆所以什麼叫必要協助就是當他遇到有困難來求你的時候就是你就協助他"},{"start":20335.121,"end":20359.476,"text":"那为什么不要原来的条文原来的条文其实是更明确啊就原来文体的版本这样的条文这样的描述记得明确因为你前面是在讲他必须完成专业责任保险啊对啊就原来的条文就好了我们原来的条文是居托中心得主动这样比较明确吧我们就是得啊你们就写成英啊是你们改的啊"},{"start":20360.456,"end":20376.976,"text":"得协助办理赔偿我们的版本也是因我们的版本就是得我们的版本就是得那因不是更好吗不是啦因为你的要保人就保姆又不是居托中心我怎么知道你要理赔了呢"},{"start":20377.745,"end":20401.77,"text":"不是那就是他主動協助啊他如果知道他就不知道他有出現所以他根本不知道要理賠啊那居托中心讓他多負一點責任不好嗎那多負一點責任不好嗎英里德更好吧對啊這個我不曉得還有這個居托中心也有中心當藥保人的藥保人也有居托中心的"},{"start":20408.09,"end":20422.092,"text":"現在我看到了那個彭婉如基金會的這個保險這個托育人員專業責任保險他們的藥保人就是居托中心載載服務類型載載大家再看一下這文字這樣可不可以文字在螢幕上"},{"start":20435.406,"end":20461.404,"text":"螢幕上看這樣可不可以應主動辦理理賠事宜主動協助我現在問題就是說那個個別去投保的然後藥保人士個別保母的他們居托中心都會知道嗎我的問題一直是這樣子剛才金管會就回答全部都是個別的勒是我舉例外"},{"start":20466.348,"end":20476.719,"text":"不是他不會知道這個保姆辦理理賠了比如說小孩子跌倒了他可能辦理一個理賠可是他一定會報給居托中心嗎"},{"start":20486.604,"end":20514.429,"text":"就是小孩子如果有受到傷害他要通報我們的規定他是要通報的那所以我們的法律有規定每一個理賠都應該通知居托中心嗎事故每一個大大小小的事故都會通報居托中心嗎大部分如果你有就醫的話才會有去理賠除非你說那我在家裡那個就不會他們一定都要通報因為事故傷害一定要通報"},{"start":20517.27,"end":20535.347,"text":"我们重要本来我们的点是说那没有透过居托中心的人就是其实就这也是第一线的从业人员的意见就是说居托中心他们会掌握到每一个这个都知道吗对啊每一个这个保姆"},{"start":20536.608,"end":20563.289,"text":"发生的状况都会知道吗然后他们都知道以后都应该要办理他们去办理理赔居托中心的人力或是什么他们有这么多人力可以办吗这个是第一线的人的反应我觉得是可以讨论因为这个也牵扯到家长的权益否则的话如果所以为什么居托中心会涉入的比较多是两方的权益都涉及在里边而且现在事故伤害各方面都一定要通报"},{"start":20567.281,"end":20584.713,"text":"现在就协助应应我们的版本是德你们都写应应主动协助办理那主动协助办理如果他来告知他他陪他应协助办理什么要办到什么程度啦你陪啊你陪"},{"start":20586.758,"end":20603.039,"text":"一些事情他們有時候保姆有時候我們想像的應應辦理事項跟可能居托中心想像的應辦理事項不一定會一致所以如果你說要叫他辦也可以但你要想要辦哪一些你的立法說明欄你的施行細則至少要定清楚吧"},{"start":20605.822,"end":20624.563,"text":"不要在未來發生糾紛吧法律說你應該要主動協助我們去辦理理賠事項啊說我有陪你去啊陪我去以後你沒幫我爭取什麼什麼的我通通就不知道了啊我的意思說你沒有講清楚法律規定這樣子沒有清楚啊"},{"start":20626.064,"end":20650.978,"text":"这边不是写理赔事项吗理赔事项那么多又不是简单的理赔事项是理赔所以这一条其实就是在讲拘托人员要投保专业保险他我去帮你把保险公司找出来就叫办理完成了吗还是说我必须要办理你每一次跟保险公司谈判我都要陪你去呢所以你的修法意见是什么"},{"start":20651.198,"end":20680.535,"text":"沒有啦我的意思是說我們立法的人要給未來遵循法律的人很清楚不要在那裡模糊啊因為我也可以這樣子訂啊我也接受啊但是要訂這個法律的時候你要講清楚應該辦理的事項涵蓋範圍具體要辦理到哪個程度一定要到談判完成每一次談判都要陪他們去談判到有一個結果不管是破局要提告"},{"start":20681.195,"end":20694.487,"text":"未來提告或是怎麼樣那個都要居託中心都要扛責嗎我的意思是說講清楚就好了我們立法的時候要把法律責任講清楚因為我們這裡給人家寫應啊不是嗎李培事宜是哪些 教授李培事宜還有"},{"start":20707.56,"end":20730.271,"text":"你們一直說未經過居托中心去投保的情形不會有這種狀況你們都說沒有不可能只有少數那這些少數你們也講說只要發生初選了居托中心都一定會知道請問沒有透過居托中心去投保的"},{"start":20731.072,"end":20736.886,"text":"那居托中心要協助的範圍跟有透過居托中心去投保的他們要協助的範圍有什麼差別"},{"start":20743.615,"end":20763.254,"text":"他這個協助的強度總是會有不一樣吧因為你透過我居托中心去投保的話我負責任啊你沒有透過我居托中心你去自己找的 認識的 人情的然後去投保了那居托中心兩個不一樣的協助的強度也必須要一樣嗎我處理一下好不好 應該是這樣啦這個條文怎麼生出來的"},{"start":20769.246,"end":20781.082,"text":"我感覺這條條文應該主要是在第一項那至於第二項為什麼會寫成這樣請行政機關能不能好好說明不能好好說明我們就先保留好不好這樣好不好"},{"start":20785.885,"end":20801.703,"text":"第一項是我們原來的管理辦法裡面有我們把它一道模仿第二項是參考委員的意見做的文字好 你們沒有辦法解釋剛剛林淑穎委員所提的問題就那個主動協助的範圍 理賠的範圍"},{"start":20806.192,"end":20832.651,"text":"其實第二項很多委員的版本都有很多委員的版本 包括我這邊也有我們的利益就是就是當保姆他就要求這些居家托育人員他要投專業責任保險嘛那如果有狀況的時候本來居家服務中心就是在陪同保姆在處理事情的所以第二項也很簡單就是這樣的意志而已好 謝謝再請葉警委員"},{"start":20834.592,"end":20854.683,"text":"衛福部可不可以說明一下目前現況是什麼還有一個目前真的在到宅都沒有透過居府中心保險他們自己各保這是一個然後現在因為過去會這樣處理是因為因為保母有些人他對於這些理賠這些東西不太"},{"start":20855.143,"end":20873.605,"text":"不太了解也不太知道怎麼做所以才會評鑑的時候會要求居住中心有沒有去做這件事情嘛否則的話家長的權益是會受損的嘛所以那現在事實上是沒有了嗎所以我們當時會這樣寫是因為一直是期待要這樣子做那現在"},{"start":20874.265,"end":20888.76,"text":"你們現在現況到底是什麼因為就我知道的事實上一直是居托中心會因為評鑑會規範著他們要去做這些事情所以我們就在想說那現在話外法條那淑媛委員擔心說話外法條是強制要做的話那是不是就"},{"start":20889.461,"end":20917.092,"text":"變成全部都要做所以你們可不可以先解釋一下讓我們兩邊可以去釐清比較清楚因為雖然是委員都這樣寫你們自己最後的版本也是這樣那要不要做一個說明謝謝我也再補充一點我覺得你們好像沒有講清楚因為現在第一線實務的人告訴我們他們的保險單不是這樣子透過居托中心去投保的居托中心跟保姆兩個同時都是要保人"},{"start":20918.132,"end":20939.89,"text":"他們是兩個藥保人所以居托中心協助的範圍當然要因為他包含理賠相關的申請文件的確認也會需要中心的大小張因為他也是藥保人同時兩個藥保人所以居托中心當然應該要協助才能去申請理賠"},{"start":20942.523,"end":20950.909,"text":"不是啊但是有個案不是啊有那種不是透過居托中心獨自自己一個人是要保人的啊"},{"start":20954.039,"end":20973.211,"text":"對啦 所以我才說第二項大家要理清楚啦 好不好是不是行政機關你再理清楚一點我們先保留但是就是說到底是用什麼樣子在進行的食物面到底是什麼你們自己都沒有講清楚你們理好清楚 要不然人家你不懂也怪怪的你們說你們的要本人是個別保姆事實上我們看到很多個就是中心跟保姆同時啊"},{"start":20974.554,"end":20995.312,"text":"好 這條先保留 等釐清楚之後再說明 再處理那我們接下來審王玉明委員所提的第16條還有嚴官委員 謝謝來 請行政機關說明好 那第16條委員指的是說如果沒有經過登記許可收託的是要進去做檢查跟這個"},{"start":20998.394,"end":21020.348,"text":"受檢查者不得規避的這個部分那我們在院版本的第十一條其實是有談到任何人都不能夠阻擋這個我們去調查去檢查這個部分我們想在行政院版本的第十一條已經有規範了這樣子好 謝謝王育民委員同意了那我們就不予採納了繼續審查王育民委員等所提的第十七條"},{"start":21021.566,"end":21040.544,"text":"啊 對不起 11條已經結束了好 應該是林淑穎委員的第22條對 陳菁委員18條 還有陳佩玉19條然後就是邱震東有第三案跟15案來請行政機關做說明"},{"start":21041.044,"end":21056.458,"text":"好那委員提到的大概是說我們地方要訂定這個居家式托育服務緊急傷病的救護原則這樣子然後才能夠讓保母考照的時候所受的急救訓練在救護車到達之前可以運用"},{"start":21057.239,"end":21074.52,"text":"另外就是應該在保姆的考照跟訓練要加強緊急發生時的SOP以及跟家長要約定這個緊急狀況的執行的這個相關的細節包括說要打哪一些專線通知家長等然後另外委員也建議將緊急傷病"},{"start":21076.022,"end":21097.23,"text":"或事故修正為緊急傷病或事故傷害這樣子那行政機關的意見大概是綜合來說大概是一個是因為我們的居家托育人員他照顧孩子的這個部分各縣市區域的這個醫療院所的距離跟受托兒童的數還有跟家長約定可能都有差異"},{"start":21097.99,"end":21119.837,"text":"所以我們建議是應該是可能要討論考論個別所以難以定定這個統一的緊急傷病的救護的原則那第二個是在居托人員的訓練裡面增加這個傷病的救護課程包括這些這是我們應該是可以的好那還有就是"},{"start":21124.249,"end":21151.898,"text":"緊急那個事故的部分我們可以改為事故傷害以上說明好來 各位有沒有其他意見對 你的條文在哪裡有林益勤委員的修正動議也有林淑媛的提案對 我們沒有打一個沒有再整理出一個案"},{"start":21154.205,"end":21162.582,"text":"我們整理出一條條文我們有一個備案的條文同仁有列出來嗎有列出來了"},{"start":21164.522,"end":21192.133,"text":"就是居家托育人員在收托兒童遇緊急傷病或事故傷害時應依兒童傷病或事故情形採取相關的處置包含與法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人以書面約定兒童傷病之就醫地點通知法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人呼叫緊急救護專線支援及收托兩人以上的這個處理措施就是個別訂定這樣"},{"start":21198.165,"end":21221.554,"text":"主席主席請說為什麼地方主管機關還是要訂定一些而且現在食物現場很長時候他們都亂了慌張掉所以甚至這些東西為什麼都還要提供給保母否則的話不會有過去有保母送到樓下藥房"},{"start":21222.995,"end":21249.309,"text":"孩子都快不行了還送到底下藥房這過去判例還有發生實際現場甚至坐計程車去在下班時間所以為什麼要去訂定一些原則就是地方政府還是當然我知道剛剛副署長講說因為有各種不同樣態你原則 大原則還是要訂定你不訂的結果就是大家都不知道怎麼做慌亂當中自己亂做最後本來孩子事實上可以救回來的最後沒有救回來"},{"start":21250.71,"end":21278.322,"text":"這過去一直都有實務現場的這麼多案例為什麼不是去做這第一個第二個我不太同意為什麼寫你說或實際照顧人以書面約定兒童傷病的就醫地點我若約定事實上是診所我到底保姆要送診所還是送醫院很嚴重的時候照理來講所以我們連托兒所評鑑托醫中心評鑑都不同意這樣做了一定是約定大醫院可是你現在寫的會變成是就醫的一個"},{"start":21280.061,"end":21281.406,"text":"地點 就醫地點"},{"start":21283.208,"end":21310.638,"text":"那是這樣 我送到診所我約定在我熟悉的親戚底下開藥房可不可以之前不是就是有送藥房嗎來不及才趕快送到診所結果沒辦法急救最後才送大醫院 孩子就走了所以我認為這樣的顯示是非常有疑慮的 以上那個跟委員報告我想我們是可以參考林淑芬跟陳培語委員的這個文字做修正參考委員的文字"},{"start":21311.858,"end":21333.46,"text":"你上面的文字就不是我們這樣子的所以我們就用委員的文字這樣子我覺得這比較清楚我們應該是要訂原則交給地方政府去訂啊你這樣子也不對啊因為淑芬委員版本還是在這樣傷病的就醫地點啊剛我就講說就醫地點也不可行嘛然後淑芬委員的前面也沒有加"},{"start":21333.96,"end":21362.207,"text":"因為我的版本事實上是有加說地方主管應訂定居家室托育服務緊急傷病或事故傷害的救護原則那這個也沒有啊我提的兩點都沒有辦法回應啊所以等於說我的修正動議已經進來那是不是可以考慮用我的版本而非用因為我的後面跟署分委員比較差異的那所以這個事實上是要依前向原則不會是我們先約好的就醫地點"},{"start":21366.761,"end":21389.071,"text":"這個應該是有層次上的差別第一個就是說一般狀況相互約定那緊急狀況的話就是緊急的傷病救護的話再交給這個直轄市縣市政府去訂定那直轄市縣市政府訂定的應該就要以這個教學型或者是大型的醫院為核心了嘛"},{"start":21389.731,"end":21404.216,"text":"就交給地方政府去決定如果遇到非常這個緊急的狀況應該是怎麼處理所以第一項講的相互約定的家長和居多中心的應該或是保母約定的應該是一般狀況"},{"start":21405.996,"end":21426.245,"text":"一般生小感冒這種還有我的有加煉那個每一年要做演練啦我覺得看起來不可信可是我覺得沒有透過演練真的發生事情的時候常常急救張亂做跟家長在宿命約定告知緊急狀況而且的確也要演練沒錯啊SOP你們要不要想出我們這幾點你要回應的"},{"start":21432.681,"end":21450.878,"text":"就是第一點大概是林淑芬委員的這個是我們一般的常態因為我們講的是兒童傷病所以有些孩子他其實是有固定就醫的意願如果他只是生病其實確實是在契約或者跟家長約定的契約其實會是林委員那個第一項是通常是這樣的處理"},{"start":21451.318,"end":21471.47,"text":"那剛剛林月琴委員談到的是說如果緊急傷病是希望地方政府主管機關能夠定到就是比較是統一的這個救護的原則這件事情應該是第二件事情那第三件事情是希望居托中心就是每一年要依照這些的原則來做演練的部分我們其實是在"},{"start":21473.471,"end":21501.357,"text":"52條是有講他們是每兩年是要完成8小時的救命術然後同時是要做這個3小時做這個緊急救護情境的演習這不太一樣因為可能就在現場就在教室裡邊做跟在家裡有時候去訪視輔導的時候去輔導他們做還是不一樣就他們家裡的情境做會比較切實際和一個在課堂上可能請一兩個學員在做我覺得那種狀況是不太一樣的"},{"start":21502.418,"end":21532.083,"text":"好 請王育敏委員那個是陳金輝委員的版本他就有特別提到就是居家托育服務中心應輔導居家托育人員落實前項原則並並期實施演練所以你們一開始幹嘛說這個陳金輝委員的版本不可行他的現在看起來他的那個完整度其實都有涵蓋到啦他特別也提到了那個要落實演練的部分"},{"start":21535.3,"end":21557.214,"text":"我再說明一次我們22條就是說平常一般的一般是書面約定的但發生緊急傷病或事故的時候是要依照地方政府制定的這個緊急傷病救護原則一般是照約定緊急的時候是依照縣市政府定的原則去處理的"},{"start":21557.754,"end":21570.452,"text":"那另外就是說要輔導這些居家托育人員要落實前項的原則那落實以後當然可以包含演練的情境所以你們到底條文要怎麼想可不可以拿出來看"},{"start":21573.837,"end":21599.213,"text":"可以馬上弄出來嗎應該是前面都放我們的是沒有問題的後面再增加你的前面跟那個陳菊媛委員都是一樣的然後後面我們的版本是托盟的版本然後後面陳菊會最後最後有寫到那個就是要演練的部分這個也是剛剛林苑芹委員提到的所以我覺得陳菊媛委員版本完整了還是不一樣他講定期我的是每年因為我覺得還是有落差"},{"start":21605.406,"end":21614.491,"text":"沒有的話就先保留因為這這這件事情蠻重要關係到孩子生命我覺得不可能那麼粗糙的就在如果沒有想清楚去定"},{"start":21615.856,"end":21638.993,"text":"我想應該是我們的前三項都是有的但是現在第四項或第三項要怎麼補充應該是這樣子想就可以了吧因為演練的話在保姆的在職訓練也有我們這個第三項也有只是說第三項的內容要怎麼樣再強化它我覺得應該是可以討論的但第一項跟第二項應該是跟陳敬輝委員的版本他也是跟我們一樣的"},{"start":21640.234,"end":21647.866,"text":"第一項第二項應該是沒有疑問啦現在是第三項還要再增加他的內涵更嚴謹一點這樣子可以嗎還是要先保留"},{"start":21659.748,"end":21681.688,"text":"落差大概就是因為就是要落實前項原則那原項前項的原則就是由直轄市縣市主管區定之所以我想細節他們一定會定的那另外的落差其實曾經委員就是定期那林瑞琴委員是每年這樣子那你就給他每年就好了啊那我們就尊重委員的意見如果應該每年應該是看每年"},{"start":21688.581,"end":21691.772,"text":"你現在可以馬上把文字弄出來嘛對不對 可以啦齁"},{"start":21692.449,"end":21722.221,"text":"但是前面應該都是一樣所以第一項第二項其實都一樣現在就是看是要定期還是每年可是第二項我的也跟不太一樣的是因為你這邊寫的上前項居家室托育服務緊急傷病救護原則跟事故傷害還是不太一樣所以我認為還是要加就是說托育服務緊急傷病或事故傷害的救護原則把它講清楚說明白"},{"start":21724.81,"end":21751.315,"text":"緊急傷病加一個或而已啊或啊又沒有關係加上去或事故傷害啊或事故兩個字啊是在第一項反正緊急傷病或事故傷害他就是把它拆開成這樣子而已嗎對啊對就是第一項第二項都加就是改為緊急傷病或緊急傷病救護都給他改成緊急傷病或事故傷害的救護原則是"},{"start":21754.039,"end":21778.811,"text":"好啦 裡面都等一下啦 王振興委員要出手了他已經急很久了謝謝主席的慣愛的眼神你總是讓我看到你是 其實經委委員的修正動議裡面是有提到算是完整不過跟這個"},{"start":21781.853,"end":21805.109,"text":"相關看到的部分就是跟蘇文維 不對 葉請委員所提到的部分有一點點的差異 因為葉請委員這邊提到的第一項的最後 他有關於法定代理人或失業兒童之人未到達前採取必要的處置 這部分是菅威委員沒有提到的"},{"start":21805.885,"end":21828.264,"text":"那其他部分實施應該還是要每年辦理相關年份會比較好那事故的話還是要事故傷害比較完整所以看如何能夠把這個有關於熱情委員在採取就是未到達之前採取必要處置的部分也能夠納進來的話就會更為完整以上"},{"start":21829.542,"end":21855.235,"text":"好 王委員已經指示了好 開始了好 那我們就是把文字再調整一下好那是不是剛剛又證據委員在提的就是我的修正動議那邊因為過去很常要嘛就是把孩子帶著去 還好有的是叫孩子自己上救護車自己保母留在家裡"},{"start":21857.236,"end":21884.491,"text":"然後孩子在路途當中後來到院之後死亡怎麼會讓一個一歲的孩子自己在救護車上沒有任何大人陪同這也是實務上發生的所以為什麼我會寫說為就是在法定代理人或是沒有到達之前要必要的措施把它列在那邊所以我們在第一項的後面就加上林月全委員剛剛的文字我們把它念一遍"},{"start":21886.502,"end":21904.594,"text":"先讀一下第一項為事當之處置逗點並與法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人未到達前逗點採取必要之處置在第一項後面增加這樣寫對嗎"},{"start":21915.878,"end":21941.423,"text":"這樣子寫如果說他就交給他就上救護車了救護車上的人就會處理了然後要陪我們可能到的就不是處置我們可能就是陪同因為你的處置可能就交給專業了那到醫院可能父母也還沒在那也是給專業的人處置也不是沒有 這個處置有兩種一種是我孩子還在家裡我到底是要交托給誰"},{"start":21943.479,"end":21960.5,"text":"在家裡就是他實施緊急救命術啊通常他有一個他只有單一的一個人的時候他是要交託給鄰居還是交託給誰甚至他要不要帶著孩子去跟隨同去醫院還是就只有就一個是受傷一個是未受傷的他隨同孩子去啊另外一個要怎麼辦"},{"start":21961.381,"end":21985.082,"text":"就一種是說如果他單純帶一個人還好可是有一個受傷一個未受傷的話未受傷的那個我說這邊就是說他要不要還沒到達之前就爸媽還沒來接這孩子的時候他的必要要採取必要的處置應該要先行去做處理你們因為法條列上去才知道這個原則實際上是去遵守的"},{"start":21990.157,"end":22017.256,"text":"所以現在這個文字還不行那要不要 好我想方向是我們都同意的就是但是說這個執行面應該要有很多細節要面面俱到的去討論和思考所以沒有辦法馬上生成一個文字讓大家都覺得是已經是周全了所以還必須要再慢一點然後再思考才能周全這樣子"},{"start":22018.559,"end":22039.045,"text":"就是文字還不行嘛 就先保留啦王委員開始不好啦 後來來 繼續審查院版17案院版18 對不起然後修正動議有第9案第10案來 請行政機關說明"},{"start":22042.738,"end":22057.893,"text":"院版的18的部分大概是我們建議就是需要協助的兒童建議委員建議是要修正為處於不利處境或危機家庭"},{"start":22058.613,"end":22075.71,"text":"之兒童那另外就是希望新增這個托嬰中心的員工其實可以列為是招收的順序之一這樣子那行政院我們這邊的意見大概是說第一個我們在我們的條文裡面的第幾項"},{"start":22078.433,"end":22099.821,"text":"第三項的第二款需要協助的兒童其實是比較廣泛其實包括了處境處於不利處境或危及家庭的兒童那另外就是委員建議是托嬰中心的員工的子女應該也納入在搜索順序我們有把它列進來這樣子這個有那個林衛請委員的修正都有盧縣議員的順序動議對我們有列進來並案討論請盧委員"},{"start":22104.975,"end":22117.501,"text":"就是第二項需要學助這個部分希望能夠增加就是及當地原住民族弱勢家庭兒童這兩個這兩個名詞就當地原住民族還有弱勢家庭兒童"},{"start":22120.57,"end":22142.519,"text":"跟委員說明我們在第4條的第3項已經有定義需要協助的兒童就是包含離島偏遠原住民地區或者是因經濟身心文化跟族群而有協助需求的兒童所以已經在第4條已經訂了 謝謝好 還有其他委員有意見嗎沒有"},{"start":22149.335,"end":22170.961,"text":"那我沒 欸 來來處理了齁 是這樣現在我原名出分體驗行政機關體驗修正團這是盧縣立盧縣立的修正動議盧縣立委員也可以"},{"start":22172.674,"end":22192.089,"text":"他有一個修正動議好那我們第18條就依照民主委員等25提案還有行政院提案修正後通過謝謝"},{"start":22194.543,"end":22204.792,"text":"來接下來處理第19案 抱歉我可不可以 因為有講必要處置了嘛你不要再說了啦 現在去跟媽做第19案"},{"start":22212.881,"end":22239.671,"text":"第19條有關林淑芬委員提出來的第25條的員工子女的部分已經在剛剛那一條已經處理了那黃婕委員關心的是對於兒童有權益損害的時候主管機關可以駁回設立許可的申請這一個那我們會在授權的執法的規範那我們也會在這個說明欄裡面去做處理"},{"start":22240.251,"end":22255.743,"text":"那針對武麗華委員關心原住民地區的兒童要優先收拖那這個我們已經在第4條裡面特別有訂定那在院版的第20條也有特別規範"},{"start":22257.944,"end":22282.491,"text":"收託6歲以上的兒童在原住民跟邊緣離島地區所以已經有參採委員的意見做處理那我們這邊中整委員的意見去做文字上的一個修正就是在第19條的第4項把托育相關人員的資格與配置修正為托育相關人員配置以上說明"},{"start":22284.284,"end":22312.187,"text":"好 各位委員針對院版19條有沒有其他意見如果沒有 我們就依照行政的提案修正後通過接下來處理院版第20條那有修正動議第對不起 對不起來對 院版 我們來到院版第24條還有其他委員的版本然後有修正動議第10案第10案是誰的"},{"start":22314.368,"end":22341.565,"text":"也是盧憲麗委員的 好 謝謝來請行政機關說明好 那委員的建議是那個就是鼓勵部件這個離島偏遠地區原住民地區的托育資源要增列托育專業人員辦理護住室的托育能夠提供租金的優惠那在行政院我們的版本我們是在第一個我們是把托育專業人員增列進去"},{"start":22342.285,"end":22364.287,"text":"那第二個是我們在行政院版本的文字裡面我們有講他們是需要公有不動產的時候得由公有財產管理機關以出租方式提供使用那其年租金的基準按照該不動產當期依法應繳納的地價稅跟房屋稅計算這個部分其實已經有優惠措施在裡面"},{"start":22365.327,"end":22382.775,"text":"這有有一些的規定本來就是 本來就有的規定這樣子就是非營利組織呈租的時候都可以有一些優惠這樣子好請林書翁委員好因為這個第四項請大家看第四項"},{"start":22385.41,"end":22407.759,"text":"第四項最後講的是說裡面講到托育相關人員的資格那托育相關人員裡面包含了像廚工護理師他也被包進去了那因為我們前面講這麼多的本法對於資格的規定只有規範托育的專業人員20條啊"},{"start":22417.926,"end":22428.071,"text":"剛才你不是在講那個盧憲宇之後我們有保留啊第19條有保留啊剛剛第19條抱歉我我看"},{"start":22439.81,"end":22467.061,"text":"好那我現在我再補充一下就好了我們的托育相關人員我們都沒有規範到這裡資格也沒有規範所以我們其實在講的都是托育專業相關人員可是你把這個專業兩個字拿掉了19條第4項的院版的第4項裡面的專業兩個字拿掉除公護理師都會都會被包進去了除公案護理師"},{"start":22471.314,"end":22477.439,"text":"托育專業相關那你把專業兩個字拿掉了的話連變少了連出工可能都包進去了可以要求但是這個我們這個法都沒有整部法都沒有談到出工所以這裡是不是應該說要不然你就再加一個就是說非專業人員非專業以外的托育相關人員相關規定"},{"start":22500.657,"end":22516.682,"text":"我們就授權給這個行政機關主管機關去訂定跟委員說明我們在那個第三條的名字定義的第17款工作人員就是只負責 抱歉是資格兩個字我講"},{"start":22517.662,"end":22535.518,"text":"主管人員 機構托育人員以外在托育機構服務之人員然後第18款是托育相關人員就是指負責任托育專業人員及工作人員也就是說委員所講的第19條第4項托育相關人員是在這一個第3條名詞定義的第18款"},{"start":22536.619,"end":22547.876,"text":"就含那些配置除工護理師就是其他的專業人員那除工護理師這些資格定在哪裡我們整部法放在哪裡有要求除工和護理師"},{"start":22550.807,"end":22578.397,"text":"我們會有授權法規來定那如果是護理人員他就是依照現在好沒關係那你是不是像雛工你就沒有所以我們其實是要資格限定的那要資格限定的話我們裡面都沒有定出資格的規範整部法都沒有就雛工護理人員這樣子那我們是不是就是也是建議說你在母法裡面只要帶過一句叫做我們授權這個目的事業主管區機關去訂定相關執法"},{"start":22580.278,"end":22606.048,"text":"妳就加一句這樣就好了對 跟委員報告我們在後面有一個專章是人員資格所以我們在這一條的第19條行政院的版本我們其實是托於相關人員配置所以我們把資格與這三個字拿掉因為在第四資格不能拿掉第四章有一個人員資格專章這個資格有包含雛工嗎漢戶裡是這種待會在後面可以看"},{"start":22607.003,"end":22634.157,"text":"有包含雛工嗎資格不能刪除才能授權去訂定執法因為你訂定執法就是母法裡面有講到要有資格因為第4章是一個人員資格完全規範在第4章不是第4章有包含雛工嗎第4章如果有包含雛工我沒有意見第4章的資格如果沒有包含我們等一下到第4章可以來討論是不是把雛工加上去就是要雛工的資格護理師的資格要放進去"},{"start":22636.637,"end":22649.025,"text":"我記得因為我從來沒有印象說後面有涉及到雛工或者是護理師的概念的應該都沒有後面都沒有都沒有你在這裡講你就要"},{"start":22650.816,"end":22667.819,"text":"就是加一句話就可以了啊這些資格就授權給目的世界主管機關或者授權給中央目的世界主管機關去訂定相關法規規範可是你這樣子的話又會變成說其他的又要放在那"},{"start":22668.22,"end":22686.654,"text":"他第四章有定只是等第四章再把它加列你要加進去你想想看因為第四章全部講的都是托育的專業人員都是這一些沒有講到儲供都沒有所以等第四章我們要把它去加列到時候在競合上你們再考慮想想看要放哪裡"},{"start":22687.301,"end":22706.987,"text":"就這一條跟後面看看要放哪裡反正一定要有資格限制然後要有個母法的依據才能給你們訂定執法資格這個條件一定要放著那依據母法裡面有的文字才能去訂定執法這樣子授權給他們去訂執法"},{"start":22709.502,"end":22725.483,"text":"你要放哪裡 我也不是很執著啦你現在講19條應該剛剛就有提到嘛 對不對好 那現在是要出24條好 好啦各位沒關係 沒關係 好你們去想一下啦你們也想一下 可以想出來了嗎"},{"start":22727.112,"end":22747.186,"text":"我們是建議是放在因為我們的第4章其實是講人員之資格與義務及托育服務之管理其實我們沒有講專業人員相關專業所以是可以在第4章的時候好沒關係你想要看要怎麼放好這樣可以了要限定好OK那24條怎樣"},{"start":22752.445,"end":22757.191,"text":"我覺得我們訂這個法律我先發牢騷一下我們訂這個法律是要用錢走的你看連廚工都要訂資格了然後你看這個保姆也要訂訓練的要求這麼大結果我們要開放外籍移工來顧小孩外籍移工有辦法像我們這麼專業嗎"},{"start":22772.256,"end":22787.348,"text":"沒有啊 沒有辦法像我們這麼專業啊那為什麼要反其道而行呢如果大家都覺得請外籍移工就來顧小孩了那這部法律我就不知道為什麼這麼嚴謹了我是講 我不曉得我在講什麼話"},{"start":22795.034,"end":22801.595,"text":"好 這個沈曹焕這個是典型的沈曹焕焦慮症好 我們現在休息我們現在休息 文中好 謝謝"},{"start":22805.714,"end":22831.354,"text":"我說的不是事實我們的保姆也要求這麼嚴格上書總統啦 上書給總統機構也要求這麼嚴格我們大家都要向前衛福部要講話跟總統會員講話連出工都要有資格限制總統要放寬啦結果就 都是你們啊你們委員也很多人說要開放外籍醫工啊外籍醫工顧小孩外籍醫工有辦法這種轉行嗎我們的倒退的路"},{"start":22836.243,"end":22837.704,"text":"幫傭的人會帶小孩會比保姆專業家庭幫傭"},{"start":22866.502,"end":22867.323,"text":"怎麼可以"},{"start":22898.626,"end":22900.278,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":23029.38,"end":23032.683,"text":"他不敢"},{"start":23057.073,"end":23059.776,"text":"你現在是委員長嗎所以你要的都有放進去嗎 剛剛那個"},{"start":23142.452,"end":23158.281,"text":"自己先吃好了,笑得好笑。"},{"start":23174.199,"end":23193.575,"text":"對阿對阿那個進度很緩慢真的你學法人你應該要改善這整個"},{"start":23199.37,"end":23203.606,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":23208.122,"end":23230.42,"text":"真的不需要放到這裡因為你的袋子要不要拿過來這真的長得太厚實了法不是要求要金對啊要金要結果這種修法就是為服務長要長出來特別國藝長出來每一個法案都這樣樂樂的"},{"start":23235.816,"end":23261.693,"text":"我覺得其實中藥原則放進來就好了那個有一些太細的真的是受不了你再繼續吃藥真的 韓院長 韓院長的話"},{"start":23310.628,"end":23317.015,"text":"他選擇自己吃"},{"start":23330.045,"end":23352.123,"text":"他們那個攝取出來的比較耐磨耐用 比較耐用醫院的學校工作大概是兩天做一次急救就是說定期 兩天要有診施 兩天要有診施就是說你要再診施 或是再prep一次要認證 但是那個急救的意思"},{"start":23357.517,"end":23387.21,"text":"趙記 趙記 趙記會講趙記嗎"},{"start":23405.946,"end":23410.57,"text":"哎呦哎呦哎呦哎呦"},{"start":23417.613,"end":23431.524,"text":"哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":23438.008,"end":23438.988,"text":"要吃的"},{"start":23492.479,"end":23495.88,"text":"24條我們對不起繼續開會要叫什麼就趕快去叫24條這樣OK吧"},{"start":23509.18,"end":23536.28,"text":"24條有沒有其他意見24條各位沒有意見我們就照行政院的提案及林書穩委員所提的修正動議對 所提好 我再重新宣告就依照行政院的提案修正以及林書穩委員的提案修正來通過"},{"start":23537.844,"end":23558.132,"text":"好那各位沒有意見那我們就照這樣通過那繼續來審查院版第25案來請說明26條 26 對不起 26案 26案抱歉抱歉26案然後修正動議是林業勤委員所提的修正動議我們並然來審查來請行政機關做說明"},{"start":23561.825,"end":23581.324,"text":"林委員認為我們原來院版的主管機關他對於托育機構的管理檢查監督不應該由受委託單位來處理所以我們已經把原來院版的第一項修正為第一項跟第二項分開處理主管機關要辦理托育機構的管理監督及檢查"},{"start":23582.205,"end":23597.432,"text":"那主管機關可以自行或委託專業機構團體來辦理托育機構的輔導跟評鑑那評鑑的報告跟結果要公布在網站上那這個也參採林月琴跟林淑芬委員的意見把它納到文字裡面去做修正"},{"start":23598.072,"end":23624.353,"text":"那另外顧玉琴委員建議說地方政府要每月定期在網站上公佈托育機構違規處分的資訊保障家長資的權利那這個在我們院版的第五條跟第六條都已經有載明說不管是中央或地方主管機關他都要公佈不利處分的一個資訊那第三個是有關於林淑芬委員關心負評之後的追蹤輔導那要確認這個托育服務品質"},{"start":23625.114,"end":23653.45,"text":"那這個我們在最後一項已經把最終輔導這樣的文字納進來修正那有關於張雅玲委員跟那個郭育晴委員關心托育機構的負責人跟主管人員如果跟原來違規的機構托育相關人員具有三親等關係的話可不可以授權主管機關去做查核那考量這樣的一個狀況所以我們在今天的修正版本新增第三項"},{"start":23654.651,"end":23675.851,"text":"特別表明說主管機關他如果在托育機構有下列個管情形要加強前項的管理監督跟檢查也就是說他如果這一個在同時新設立許可的托育機構他設立前的托育機構經過主管機關廢止撤銷設立許可或自行歇業而且位於5年者"},{"start":23676.771,"end":23701.37,"text":"那主管機關要加強管理監督及檢查另外一個就是在機構的負責人配有三親等內的血親或陰親如果他設有本法第36條第38條到第40條所列情事之一者那主管機關在加強管理監督的時候如果發現的話也要做處理那其他著作文字的修正那以上說明來各位有沒有其他的意見"},{"start":23707.196,"end":23709.237,"text":"再往上一點 再往下一點 我們看看底下的"},{"start":23736.462,"end":23744.934,"text":"他這個有參照你的修正動議我們要看一下他寫的一樣的嗎對 一樣的"},{"start":23752.935,"end":23780.509,"text":"那你那個紙本就是托育機構對於第一項及第二項之管理監督檢查輔導及評鑑不得規避妨礙或拒絕檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童我們剛前面是不是有任何人我已經忘記了居家托育人員這邊是托育機構所以是同樣的就是不得規避妨礙"},{"start":23784.338,"end":23809.384,"text":"這樣好像都有重複性的寫法我知道啦 我的意思就是說我們的修法就是不夠簡潔啦 就是一直在重複同樣的我知道 但是就是說我們的修法這個也提供給大家參考我們好像有一些重複性的用語在不同的條文出現"},{"start":23811.347,"end":23833.877,"text":"我覺得這個就是在修法上面其實我們修法應該是更簡潔但我們好像會同樣的旨意同樣的東西在不同的條文就重複出現了就你這樣的東西你如果居家有機構也有那你那種共通性的你不能在某一個條文裡面就是"},{"start":23835.595,"end":23845.597,"text":"如果這個都是你覺得不得規避妨礙檢查什麼什麼的在法的處理沒辦法這樣我真的覺得我們這樣修起來漏漏的"},{"start":23846.277,"end":23865.686,"text":"可是也不太一樣因為像托育機構才有評鑑居家保姆是沒有評鑑所以體力上還是會有很多有一些字眼上落差要合併而且更何況我們是張姐已經分開來了不是主要是因為居家會有特別的規定是因為每個保姆家裡住的條件不一樣地點不一樣"},{"start":23866.266,"end":23883.602,"text":"他們設的可能障礙遇到的可能狀況會不一樣因為那個旨意都是不得規避妨礙或拒絕然後檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童無論是居家或機構都是一樣的我只在講說如果有所以用托育機構就可以了"},{"start":23884.645,"end":23904.857,"text":"居家也一樣啊我的意思是說檢查的內容會不一樣啊因為而且機構機構才有評鑑啊事實上保姆是沒有評鑑如果你列的時候是不是又要第二列講說保姆的那個評鑑你也不得規避妨礙跟拒絕還不是一樣不是啦這個應該不是說從不經檢或諜傳家務因為這個章節都分開了規範的對象也分開了"},{"start":23910.32,"end":23930.104,"text":"所以還好啦那個在其他法律也都是這樣子講的立法的體力上也是因為很難說共通性定在一起沒有共通性的再分開很難這樣子那在看法律的人其實要方便看法律的人我是保姆就看第二張就好了我是機構就看第三張就好了這樣比較方便這樣也比較清楚啦"},{"start":23933.647,"end":23961.065,"text":"你叫他說一樣的還要再看前面再看後面這個我只是提出來說大家思考就是你講的也有道理啦對啦我們就是立法其實應該是要比較嚴簡應該簡潔利落一點我們現在聽出來就是比較繁複就是有點跟跟一般在立法我們真的是對啦我們是立法的但看法律使用法律的人是一般人這是主管機關的問題啦好"},{"start":23963.59,"end":23979.5,"text":"你講的很有道理 主管機關的問題所以請主管機關法規會法規會都沒有表示意見那也請那個參事 法務部 我們最美的參事就有勞你多多提點一下"},{"start":23986.66,"end":23991.623,"text":"對 還是曾市領要起來表達一些意見像我們這樣的修滑地會不會太"},{"start":23997.949,"end":24023.705,"text":"跟主席跟各位委員報告因為其實這一部法在那個衛福部跟行政院的時候大家都有很仔細的討論過很多遍那可是要這麼一套很完整的法律要每一個面面都俱到的狀況下實在也很不容易所以我們也符合很多委員的要求還有各方面的意見所以"},{"start":24024.445,"end":24040.261,"text":"現在就是像委員們有提到雖然很繁複但是因為分章節所以還是這樣子處理那來到這邊好像又多添了很多的意見所以所以看起來"},{"start":24042.794,"end":24069.21,"text":"加了一張互助式的那更多所以看起來就像我們呂次長說的希望很完整但是好像也沒有辦法完美可能就只能請大家在這邊就盡量討論那我們在法務部這邊意見就是盡量尊重那個主管機關的專業意見跟政策決定然後還有委員大院委員的決議結果是以上好謝謝參事的"},{"start":24074.753,"end":24102.748,"text":"的建議的評論啦所以說這個意思說這個法修到這樣子不是不是主管機關那我們趕快回到第26條的草案各位有沒有其他意見那如果沒有的話我們就這樣來處理好不好就是照行政院的提案委員"},{"start":24103.41,"end":24115.018,"text":"林月琴的修正動議來修正通過可以吧好謝謝那繼續來審查院版第27條對不起27條通過了抱歉來繼續審查"},{"start":24132.432,"end":24154.29,"text":"院版第30條然後修正動議是第9案也是林月琴委員所提的修正動議那請行政機關做說明行政機關說明第30條委員們所關心的大概有幾個問題第一個就是我們雲端儲存的保存期限"},{"start":24155.151,"end":24174.232,"text":"那我們行政機關定的是保存30天了那有委員提到國委員提到的是為什麼保留60天是不是有一些困難那第二個是有關於這個拖曳業者保管影像的這個資安的防護政府部門要如何確保這個監管員的資安的這個維護"},{"start":24175.874,"end":24191.575,"text":"那第三個就是因為才化法的關係我們在原來的法條定的是中央機關應補助直轄縣市機關建置這個網際網路的雲端儲存的系統那經費上面會不會是有一些困難的這個部分"},{"start":24192.256,"end":24210.653,"text":"那還有委員也關心如何調閱的這些相關的事宜還有就是針對於監視錄影帶是不是有抽查的這個機制那我想我們行政部門就統一的說明第一個大概是在監視器錄影監視器保存的期限我們行政機關還是建議是30天因為從過去我們的"},{"start":24213.695,"end":24232.523,"text":"這個發生事件不管是全國22縣市的調查跟處理大概在30天的影像儲存其實是可以做一些釐清因為通常多餘人員不當的對待他都有一個pattern所以其實是我們回看大概30天左右其實就可以查到所以應該是不需要保存到60天"},{"start":24233.763,"end":24252.916,"text":"那林委員也建議是好像也是建議是可以保存30天就可以那另外一個就是那個補助的這個部分我們大概就是也考慮到說確實才化法有做的一些這個調整所以我們就把中央機關因補助改為得補助給地方政府"},{"start":24253.436,"end":24272.146,"text":"那另外林蔚群委員有提到的是監視錄影帶是不是要去抽查所以我們也在我們的原條文裡面增加了這個查閱條件還有抽查的機制我們增加了抽查機制這四個文字在我們的法條當中那另外就是對於監視錄影帶的這個調閱的這些我們將來會是在執法裡面會去做一個詳細的規定包括"},{"start":24277.829,"end":24300.841,"text":"資訊安全的這個部分我們都會做一些詳細的這個訂定在執法當中 以上說明好 請王玉敏委員有關於第30條 這一條也是蠻關鍵性的條文那包括之前其實有很多這個托孕機構負責人其實是蠻反彈的一個條文那現在經過溝通然後有一段時間"},{"start":24302.202,"end":24305.284,"text":"我覺得這個條文應該是要通過但是你們把它改成這樣子把原來中央主管機關的責任應補助這個直轄市縣市主管機關建置前向網際網路系統把它改成德我覺得這個知識體大為什麼講知識體大現在各縣市的財政我真的跟大家講是不一樣的六都跟"},{"start":24325.877,"end":24348.411,"text":"像這個嘉義縣這個財政很困難的那種財政五級的那是完全不一樣的你今天把它因本來是中央主管機關的責任不管你在哪一個縣市你現在的這些網際網路設備你都可以就是統一性的該補助就補助你現在把它改成得之後那請問你要怎麼補助法"},{"start":24349.251,"end":24368.483,"text":"那些財政很困難的縣市如果他今天又編不出這筆錢然後這些脫穎阻攬機關其實這些又反彈那應該要怎麼做這件事情應該是要統一做法而不應該是個性歧視如果有些縣市跟你說我編不出來啊"},{"start":24369.96,"end":24384.861,"text":"那怎麼辦那個反彈會更大所以我覺得在這件事情上面原來的版本你剛剛講的是才化法但是那個竹東泰院長也講了才化法修改過他沒有要這樣子做"},{"start":24385.422,"end":24401.86,"text":"那所以代表行政權很大那你們行政權還是可以編列這筆預算就是讓地方政府在這件事真的把它做好因為你這一些因應你新的規定大家都要有新的設備然後會增加支出如果今天中央不扛這個責任的話"},{"start":24403.422,"end":24420.859,"text":"我只能說你這個條文過了之後反而是添亂喔會很亂喔所以我這一個把這個原來的因你們的版本是因所有委員的版本都是因你今天用一個臨時動議直接把它改成德我覺得太粗糙而且你們沒有跟各縣市去討論過"},{"start":24422.02,"end":24441.278,"text":"如果沒有我們本來是好意這個托育專法通過然後也知道說第一線執行的困難縣市的困難我們要好好去做結果你這邊把它翻盤我只能說你這樣子恐怕日後的爭議會很大事實上行政院還是有很大的這個資源跟條件"},{"start":24443.38,"end":24458.913,"text":"他可以優先決定什麼事情是該做的而整部的托育專法裡面如果我們認為保存30天然後雲端儲存是這麼重要的一件事情那請大家不要開玩笑就是把這個因改成德這個我們絕對是反對好 謝謝王委員的意見那林玉琴委員再換林總務委員"},{"start":24470.672,"end":24487.805,"text":"我贊成現在衛福部提的版本變成是那個抽查機制因為我的目標也是這樣不過剛剛講到因跟得因為這寫法條的時候之前事實上是裁判法還沒有"},{"start":24488.726,"end":24509.646,"text":"通過的時候那現在通過之後如果地方已經拿到拿掉4198億的時候那本來基礎性建設本來就是應該要地方就要去直接而且攸關該縣市的孩子的權益怎麼可能不做呢那如果而且用得的話就表示說如果財力比較弱的"},{"start":24510.246,"end":24535.923,"text":"縣市的話那一樣中央還是可以去貼補並不是會置之不理啊可是因的話就是一定要要這樣那可是今天的錢費用上不管是計劃型或一般型補助整個錢就已經沒辦法統統分費款就拿多拿了4198億本來地方該做的就應該去做所以我不認為說應該要回到說用因以上謝謝再請林書文委員"},{"start":24537.366,"end":24566.434,"text":"好 應該這麼說我們第一次財化法修法的時候好像地方多了4198億那這一次的修法再增加2000億所以一共地方政府全部多了6200億左右那平均一個地方政府沒有200億也有300億那你說中央少了這6000多億所以我們不要說中央一定就沒能力也不要說地方就一定有能力"},{"start":24566.974,"end":24581.56,"text":"所以我們把彈性就放在德那為什麼不用擔心太多呢我想這個事情是社會大家都在監督地方政府如果有錢他卻不編列他可以不我一直要想跟大家講就是說問責民主的體制問責的方式並不是說一定要法律怎麼寫進去才可以怎麼可以其實不只他還有政治上可以問責"},{"start":24594.565,"end":24617.74,"text":"如果地方政府有錢不編列也有地方議員可以監督然後人民會看嘛那中央如果有足夠的資源不編列那大家也可以問責政治問責很簡單四年選一次很簡單啊有沒有錢有沒有彈性大家就攤在陽光下讓人民自己去決定"},{"start":24618.44,"end":24641.631,"text":"所以法律不一定要把他寫死的原因是在這裡有錢他就拿出來給大家做那你有錢還故意裝我想這個東西立委在這裡也不是當假的大家我們的責任就是要找出他明明有錢花在別的地方就花在這裡然後就不願意給那講出來後就政治責任大家就知道你就家長會饒得過無"},{"start":24644.492,"end":24660.826,"text":"這個當權者嗎或是講出來後大家會覺得地方政府這樣子大家就無所謂了嗎我是說問責的方式是很多元的不是一定要說直接寫死了沒有彈性大家得的話就是可以有也可以沒有"},{"start":24661.546,"end":24671.168,"text":"所以也沒有到那種程度說應該強迫一律都應你叫他少了6200億了你叫他連舉債可能連舉債都違法了那並不是說行政院院長他就他不遵守是說他的附屬權他要不要附屬我覺得我認為他應該會附屬的啦然後到底可不可以附屬要不要附屬也是他們的決定另外呢這個還有憲法可以遵守這個憲法裡面"},{"start":24690.311,"end":24710.314,"text":"那要看人家如果你的才化法兩次修法修到最後是要違法的再繼續舉債的話那當然他會有他的考量但是我們這裡考量是只有這個法律只有兒童小孩的權益那德的話也是可以有不是阿英的話就是失去彈性啊這個我不堅持啊你們大家決定"},{"start":24711.308,"end":24727.286,"text":"好我們再請王毓民委員之後再請陳昭志委員我想這件事情剛剛淑芬委員講到後面她說我們應該回到怎麼樣做是對孩子最好我覺得就回到這個初衷不要把事情弄混不要把才化法的事情拿到這邊來討論我們剛剛從前面的討論到現在"},{"start":24732.972,"end":24747.972,"text":"因為這個改變了這個改變了原來大家為什麼都是陰的版本大家想想看每個人都提啊連行政院自己提出來都是陰的版本我剛已經講過這件事情其實當時要推動也不是那麼容易很多的這個"},{"start":24748.966,"end":24764.671,"text":"拖音中心的負責人他們是連署他們開記者會他們是反彈的他們就說要增加他們很多的那個設備那縣市政府應該跟他們一起合作那縣市政府如果要跟他們一起合作去補助這些設施設備這個也是必要的支出"},{"start":24765.231,"end":24783.762,"text":"那你如果基於你整個的政策你真的要落實推動讓它穩定由中央來出不管你地方財政的多寡資源的多寡我一律中央扛起來就是這件事情我就是要徹底去落實因為今天兒托專法也是行政院提出來的版本"},{"start":24784.102,"end":24809.22,"text":"那我個人就認為應該就是負責到底嘛中央扛起來嘛那你至於其他的才化法你還有其他什麼地方建設其他什麼款項那個我都不管但是回到這件事情上面你如果要事情是好好的落實跟推動的話那不應該把原來的這個因的版本直接就改了一個字變成是得啊讓他整個亂掉啊那我們可以問一下未來要當縣市首長的人可以接受嗎對不對"},{"start":24811.541,"end":24839.219,"text":"就是我們在座也有這個已經被提名的我們的召委也可能是未來的雲林縣縣長就一個地方首長的角度你可以接受中央政府這樣子嗎就把責任丟了然後就看中央臉色今天中央說你很乖然後我就可以補助你那你今天不乖我可能錢就不要給你讓他增加了不確定性這個是我們要的嗎我覺得今天兒童專法今天回到這邊就是怎麼樣做"},{"start":24839.719,"end":24854.975,"text":"其實對於這部法的落實是最好的方案那我還是主張就是應該回到原來的就是中央主管機關你統一做法這個才是最好的方案所以我的主張還是應該要維持因那如果大家有意見我們就保留好不好"},{"start":24856.175,"end":24868.623,"text":"好 謝謝王委員的說法晚之後陳昭志委員再請國務委員再來就是王委員盡量不要為了全國的兒童我們盡量就不要提到選舉來 請陳昭志委員 謝謝"},{"start":24876.608,"end":24898.483,"text":"我想我們今天在審查法案也不是審查預算我們第一個我們今天在審查法案該怎麼寫它的初衷第一點是怎樣第二個用一個比較很general的概念這樣子要來處理這一項特別這一項我是覺得不太適合那第三個就是說不然就請衛福部告訴我們哪幾個縣市說他寫個德他寫個因有困難"},{"start":24899.524,"end":24926.927,"text":"我們去了解一下就是說當然就是因就是因因為今天在立法又以兒童最佳利益的為優先就是我們先回到這個地方真的有困難的我不知道就是這樣每個都還沒評估都還沒問就是說我們先不要再吵我們過去之前大家彼此也許都犯過的一些問題好嗎就回到立法初衷回到立法初衷我們今天不在審預算在立法初衷謝謝好謝謝再請郭委員王老師"},{"start":24931.969,"end":24949.734,"text":"主席這一條喔因為我提的是那個附帶決議那雖然大家剛剛一直講就是回到我們的這個立法的一個初衷就是以兒少的這個權益或者是以最重要的一個部分但是我想這個跟預算還有資源其實也是息息相關那這個"},{"start":24951.554,"end":24972.847,"text":"附帶決議的部分其實我是因為就是擔心這個資安的管理的一個疏漏跟人力資源的不足然後另外就是在完成的一個隱私保護的一個機制那在三讀過後是不是能夠請這個衛福部我們提出這個三個月之內有一些配套的措施能夠來確保這個托育的安全給兒童的一個權益"},{"start":24974.508,"end":24991.27,"text":"讓這個從業人員他們的權益其實也能夠達到一個很平的一個保障那第一點其實就是這個建立兒童的隱私的一個分級的一個保護那也明定這個家長在調閱影像範圍跟程序當中其實也要兼顧那個比例上的一個原則跟隱私權的一個保障"},{"start":24991.85,"end":25013.946,"text":"阿第二點的部分其實是資安的管理跟專責人力的一個強化那這個部分其實就跟預算息息相關到底我們有沒有這個錢可以做這個專責人力的一個補強那第三點就是托育人員的這個心理健康跟工作上的一個支持啦那也要明確的去訂立這個設監製器錄影設備的一個合理的一個範圍然後避免這個過度的一個壓力"},{"start":25014.426,"end":25043.884,"text":"那第四點就是前端的一個預防跟資源的一個配置喔那我想這個部分其實也要兼顧這個監視的一個設備跟托育人力的一個橫屏那我想的不是只有靠這個所謂的這個事後的一些影像來做追溯那第五點其實就是政策我們要怎麼樣能夠落實然後每一年要是不是也可以提出一些政策檢討跟一個報告這個所以這個第30條我提出的是一個附帶決議的部分以上"},{"start":25044.522,"end":25066.86,"text":"好 謝謝郭委員 那個王振旭委員 晚之後再換李副委員 謝謝謝謝主席雖然那個時候我還沒有在立法院工作不過我們還是可以稍微把這個背景重新回憶一下不長的時間就是其實在依照這個兒童及少年福利法跟權益保障法第77條之一的規定"},{"start":25068.981,"end":25088.117,"text":"為了要因應這個拖影中心監視影像到底怎麼處理比較適當他們有去透過開公聽會當中有去處理一些數據包括那個時候全國有1652家的拖影中心均依法裝設這個監視錄影設備那個時候已經有處理到這個部分"},{"start":25092.66,"end":25112.935,"text":"那在112年6月28號又在根據這個部分呢得到的5418人互議成案說需要能夠依照家長的期待來建立中央建制雲端資料庫所以那個時候其實大家對這個是有所期待那在113年就編列了2.5億元來處理這個事情"},{"start":25117.538,"end":25135.094,"text":"那現在我們不知道說再過來如果有相關的費用的話那到底是中央或者是應該地方主管機關共同來促成這個是剛剛大家在討論的事情這是有關於剛剛在有關於德阿英等等的這些討論的內容"},{"start":25136.115,"end":25160.965,"text":"不過針對第30條我們也非常清楚我們辦公室也非常關心這30第30條這個影像保存的制度應該如何能夠運作的更完整所以我們在這邊有提出了三個重點再跟各位委員來討論一下現在第30條的第4項我們還是認為說不管他是一個定期追蹤檢查或者是抽查相關的影像保存"},{"start":25161.545,"end":25187.126,"text":"是的確很重要因為我們之前的案例發現很多人就說影像壞掉了也不曉得什麼時候壞掉了所以到底是要定期追蹤檢查或者是用抽查的方式比較適當大家可以再多考慮看看那我們是希望能夠用定期的追蹤檢查會比較好如果用抽查的話也不曉得他會不會被抽查到等等這個部分等一下大家還可以再確認"},{"start":25188.007,"end":25209.954,"text":"那另外就是說這些已經儲存下來的這些影像什麼時候可以來應用那最重要就是說如果有涉及到RNA等不當對待的在這個46-1的這些法條之下地方主管機關應該要保存這個影像至少到這個案件終結三個月"},{"start":25211.818,"end":25240.211,"text":"他不需要一直保存可是至少如果有發生案件的話呢當下就要讓他保存下來可以讓家長有調閱的權利或者是相關人員有調閱的權利所以這個調閱權也是我們非常重視的那這個調閱權的內容就必須要有好的執法去規範它所以針對這三個部分我們辦公室很希望透過委員共同來認同也把這個內容可以放到這個母法裡面以上"},{"start":25242.06,"end":25244.793,"text":"好 謝謝王委員接下來請林淑媛之後再請林警員"},{"start":25248.773,"end":25271.307,"text":"我再說一次這個本來是兒托法但是因為我們這裡訂了一條說中央主管機關應要補助職甲就是補助地方政府建置網際網路的系統那我們這樣講意思是說其實地方政府都不用都沒有責任嗎那地方政府只是叫你們出一筆錢來建置這個網際網路系統"},{"start":25273.949,"end":25293.617,"text":"有這麼困難嗎另外呢我們有道理去幫如果有錢的地方政府我們去幫他們出錢這樣幫有錢的地方政府出錢的結果不就是排擠了沒有錢縣市的補助嗎所以在這種狀況裡面再分配的功能"},{"start":25293.877,"end":25307.883,"text":"沒有而且排擠的資源弱勢的地方政府的資源老實說可能我們必須要補助地方弱勢的地方政府的更多那你像台北市這次修法以後兩次修法以後至少增加500億吧讓他"},{"start":25310.144,"end":25339.061,"text":"從中央多拿了500億你叫他去建置一套網際網路的儲存的系統會真的沒有錢嗎而需要我們再幫錦上添花的去幫這些有錢的地方政府再補助應補助而再補助嗎但是我要回過頭來講就是說反正這個條文最重要的是是後續的影像的保存這個後續的影像的保存我現在講地方政府很重要"},{"start":25339.841,"end":25361.111,"text":"出問題的不是說買一套設備啊花多少錢真正最大的問題是影像的保存的這個問題要不然這一個大型的影像資料庫有可能是一個大型的創意私房喔你知道拖音中心啊那裡面廁所是沒有分開的都是直接在鏡頭下面的喔"},{"start":25361.771,"end":25386.749,"text":"然後通通都可以駭進去看的喔所以這個事情是很重大的責任所以我們要問責於說有錢的地方政府我們也應該要叫到也應該補助給台北市這樣的想法之前不如我們應該花更多時間來討論的是這個影像後續的保存應該要怎麼樣的配套要求他們做到什麼樣的程度這可能是更這件事情裡面最重要的好 謝謝 今夜請委員"},{"start":25392.085,"end":25416.239,"text":"陳柔剛才王振旭委員提的事實上前面就已經編列 相信113年就已經2.5億元而且全國的1652家的拖延中心都已經依法裝了所以我覺得這寫得也還好是說因為有需要的地方要做那如果有需要他還是可以跟中央而不是一定要去由中央來支付這筆錢"},{"start":25417.82,"end":25445.656,"text":"另外一個我要澄清我這邊寫抽查機制剛剛證據委員提到說為什麼不是定期因為就是要抽查才會知道到底他們有哪些時段事實上是違反我們的相關規定的如果事實上是定期定時的話這樣子根本看不到問題點那他大概就會在這個時間點去避開那就沒有辦法真正的去掌控到"},{"start":25446.283,"end":25473.141,"text":"孩子在托嬰中心違反托嬰中心是不是有違反照顧的一些方式所以我覺得這個抽查機制我的列的是期待要這樣子是減少掉一些問題因為我們還是預防生育治療如果沒有這樣的抽查等到出事的時候才知道回過頭來像我過去看回過頭來看那一整個月基本上這個托嬰中心基本上都是有很多問題的他對孩子照顧方式常常是讓孩子獨處的"},{"start":25474.182,"end":25495.028,"text":"可是如果因為有透過這樣的一個抽查機制的話可以知道他已經有一些狀況那我們可以要求他改善才不會後來孩子死亡之後你要去救者是沒有意義的所以我覺得這個蠻重要的所以我的附帶決議裡面對第30條的附帶決議我也特別在強調這一塊所以我不知道就是"},{"start":25496.536,"end":25506.25,"text":"剛剛衛福部在報告的時候並沒有把我的附帶決議說要把它放入所以希望我的附帶決議在針對第30條我認為是要放入的以上"},{"start":25507.585,"end":25511.929,"text":"我要求主管機關說明幾件事情第一件事情就是說這個法條通過之後所有的管理是中央的責任還是是地方政府的責任"},{"start":25529.267,"end":25543.023,"text":"因為其實就我知道都是地方政府在管理那中央就是只要立法然後都是地方在做事今天叫你們補助個設備然後就說不可以喔後面的管理才是重責大任這個"},{"start":25544.364,"end":25567.138,"text":"真的就是这样子第二件事情你们应该讲清楚现行的这些拖曳机构他们设的这些设备将来要上传到云端他们有一些规格是不是符合他是不是需要重新建制他的设备然后地方政府到底要建制这套设备要花多少钱第三件事情是你们当时"},{"start":25568.058,"end":25595.905,"text":"政院的版本是因然後跟地方政府都說你要補助你今天改成德請問你有跟徵詢過地方政府的意見嗎有開過會嗎如果有開過會是什麼時候我是覺得作為中央政府機關也不可以不負責任今天任意性的因改成德然後就改成德這樣然後就要這樣子通過有沒有跟地方政府商量如果所有的事情都是要地方政府來做來執行的話"},{"start":25596.789,"end":25606.598,"text":"那請問中央政府你負什麼責任又不補助設備管理也不歸你們管然後就是直接這樣立了法條通過中央跟地方的關係應該不是這樣子"},{"start":25608.967,"end":25632.621,"text":"應該是要共同商議吧那有沒有商議我要確認的是最後這一點你們要把因改成德的時候有沒有跟地方政府開過會議那讓地方政府充分去反應他現在會遇到的困難是什麼立法都很簡單但是立法通過之後要落實的確才是重點如果你沒有跟地方政府好好去溝通協調這件事情"},{"start":25634.396,"end":25649.207,"text":"這個真的我覺得如果按照現在這樣的修正通過之後絕對是天亂我必須先講在前面那國民黨的意見就是如果是要得的這個版本我們就是保留這個這個委員會我們不贊成再請陳昭志委員"},{"start":25654.436,"end":25669.885,"text":"謝謝主席我們在審法案所以我們回顧到第5條剛剛我們通過的中央主管機關掌理下列事項那麼其中大概第3第4都提到了中央托育服務經費是分配及補助托育服務輔導獎勵補助及評鑑之規劃這裡就是中央機關的這個責任"},{"start":25676.869,"end":25688.975,"text":"全責 應該是責任這裡已經陳述得非常清楚所以我也剛剛我上一回這個提問的時候也提到就是說這件事情不應該就是在會議室當委會的討論當中"},{"start":25692.137,"end":25712.89,"text":"沒有數據依據的或是也沒有經過跟地方各地方這種溝通的時候就把這個破壞了整個這個立法的精神那我也請中央機關衛福部這邊就是請看第五條你們的責任是什麼那另外剛剛這個月行委員他提到那個隨機抽查機制這個是一個非常好的想法"},{"start":25713.59,"end":25728.193,"text":"那我很支持但是這個是會變成是台灣最嚴格的一個做法但是這個才能看到真相沒有錯那我以前我在醫院評鑑在很多地方我都要求就是說不預期的就是說不預警不不預警的去抽查一些重點"},{"start":25729.454,"end":25755.219,"text":"這個我們才能看到真相絕對不不然就會像邱太元他去看了當天去看了那個急診用賽然後就說已經緩解了結果現在到今天都不可能解決因為沒有看到真相醫院聽到他要他要長官要視訊那立刻把這個病人都往上也就是馬上來處理掉把這現場就看不到真相那這個精神隨機抽樣機制我是支持但是我必須請說很嚴因為我在其他的法條也希望有個這麼嚴格"},{"start":25756.819,"end":25773.248,"text":"就是比照類似金融機關金融機關查金庫的時候是非常嚴格的他根本不通知一大早就在門口等鐵門一開他衝進去查因為那是最重要的一個部分那就是有中央政府部分麻煩衛生部請你好好再讀一次第五條你們的責任謝謝"},{"start":25775.1,"end":25793.609,"text":"好 謝謝林業勤委員講完之後再換王振旭委員 謝謝這個是監視錄影的錄下來之後的抽查並不是去現場抽查為什麼要抽查因為如果一個拖延中心30天"},{"start":25794.889,"end":25811.737,"text":"你只有去抽的時候你才知道說有沒有哪些天他有些出現問題因為我剛剛講說今天不是等孩子死後我們回過頭來去看那些影像沒有意義為什麼因為事實上前面就看到整個托孕中心搞不好照顧孩子的行為上甚至托孕人員對孩子就已經有不當對待"},{"start":25813.138,"end":25832.724,"text":"可是抽查就可以發現說有不當對待我們可以馬上處理不是等到孩子死之後我們再去看一個月有用嗎而且托醫院中心坦白講比幼兒園更大的問題不是不當對待有時候是致死率的問題所以我認為為什麼要去抽查講嚴格 對我們本來就要用最高等級來保護我們孩子的安全不是嗎 以上好 請王正希委員"},{"start":25839.13,"end":25858.299,"text":"謝謝主席 其實還是釐清一下這個追蹤檢查跟抽查我們心目中的不一樣的地方我瞭解葉學文委員很希望能夠用抽查這樣的機制去看內容到底有沒有發生對兒童不當對待"},{"start":25859.7,"end":25873.987,"text":"想要透過這個既存的影像去看內容這個就是抽查的想法那我們所謂的追蹤檢查意思就是說至少我們要知道從有錄影設備然後這些"},{"start":25875.228,"end":25904.768,"text":"影像已經存到系統裡面那這個系統必須要不斷的存在在至少至少在保存期限裡面要不斷的存在就是用追蹤的方式只要他有上去就知道他已經在系統裡面所以我們可以追蹤檢查是希望這樣的系統的這個存在是符合規定的這是我們想要確定的我們不希望說他的設備壞掉了結果不知道"},{"start":25906.349,"end":25931.887,"text":"所以才要用定期的追蹤去掌握到系統本身他的這個可以依照規定在運作至於裡面是不是有發生不當的對待用抽查機制那個是OK的所以基本上是不一樣的概念是 謝謝好 這一案大家也都懷疑超過兩三次以上那各位"},{"start":25933.53,"end":25949.004,"text":"如果有意見那我們就保留了喔好 謝謝好 繼續的有跟地方政府開過會嗎要請他們回答嗎 好應該是沒有吧 答案就是好不讓他們回答了喔 好 謝謝繼續來審查"},{"start":25955.78,"end":25966.508,"text":"這個院版第34條然後修正動議第三案我們一併來審查 請行政機關做說明第三案是陳情惠委員的案 謝謝"},{"start":25967.591,"end":25993.442,"text":"第34條陳金威委員建議刪除我們院版的條文的第6款的收費退費項目及金額兩個字但是因為現在地方主管機關跟托育機構他本來就要公告他的收費的一個金額所以這個實務執行上並沒有困難所以我們就沒有參加委員的意見"},{"start":25994.322,"end":26023.702,"text":"那林瑞琴委員提到的要依第33條所定的衛生安全跟緊急事件的處理措施那我們在前面第31條就已經有說明托育機構要定管理計畫那管理計畫裡面包括所有的安全衛生啊各項設施設備的安全啊以及各項安全措施的演練都已經在第31條裡面做規範了所以我們建議就按照我們原本的條文的文字"},{"start":26024.302,"end":26047.854,"text":"那至於林院勤委員建議說要增列托育機構行政組織跟員額編制的情形那因為我們考量托育機構的行政組織跟員額這個是托育機構內部的一個事項是不是有必要一定要在這裡定出來然後讓托育機構公開這樣的資訊那我們是建議說可能還是按照托育機構自己的一個處理的方式去規範就不參採"},{"start":26050.635,"end":26058.21,"text":"那至於其他委員的意見原則上都是按照我們院版的文字去做處理那以上說明各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":26093.484,"end":26101.107,"text":"請威福部說明一下 因為我的版本是有那個托育機構行政組織及員額編制情形"},{"start":26105.322,"end":26129.262,"text":"你們後來版本是沒有跟委員說明因為那個托育機構的行政組織跟原額這個是托育機構的內部事項所以我們考量因為這一條他佩戴定有罰則所以我們是建議不申列因為我當時為什麼會列在這邊說要公開因為過去呢很常事上是"},{"start":26129.847,"end":26150.76,"text":"你人如果沒有這樣子的一個訊息的話家長根本不知道他人員編制跟配的班級的狀態裡面常常會配不起來等到發生事情的時候才會知道所以為什麼要有這樣的一個公開情形是讓大家知道說每一個班配的老師甚至老師的那個資格專業資格是什麼是"},{"start":26160.718,"end":26180.953,"text":"對最大問題就像淑芬委員提的就是那個超收的家長對不起來可是如果你去對人的話那個小班或是豆豆班或者是小草班或什麼班那可以去配搭那個老師的時候才會清楚所以我不知道你們如果不列的困難到底在哪邊"},{"start":26181.823,"end":26210.079,"text":"主要是因為這個托育機構的樣態其實蠻多元有的是混零有的是分兩歲之前他會分譬如說十個月的幾個月的那有的是會讓他在一起所以他有可能是因應他現在入托的孩子的年齡他會去做調整所以變成如果我們說他這一定要公開就是他每天他可能一段時間我相信不會到每天因為孩子成長的速率因為我們現在基本上你們上次一直在講的是說沒有班"},{"start":26210.999,"end":26224.338,"text":"台灣的托嬰中心幾乎還是用班的概念對 我們不是班群的概念可是他應該是空間上他會分可是他有的孩子是混齡的大的跟小的在一起那有的是會用兩歲之前他會分成三個年齡層來照顧"},{"start":26226.826,"end":26250.401,"text":"不過還是會有哪個老師去照顧哪些小孩可是過去常常會變成是有時候老師沒有這個老師可是他因為總量給家長感覺事實上是沒有就讓家長感覺上說好像事實上是這個人數上是合於規定可是基本上不是他在照顧配比的時候就不太合於規定了"},{"start":26251.141,"end":26267.498,"text":"所以我們才會說如果你把它分裂清楚的話我相信不會變動這麼大當然沒有辦法像幼兒園說那一年才變動一次可是至少我去半年還有可能也不會每個月有變動所以我認為這不會是執行上有困難"},{"start":26276.368,"end":26299.061,"text":"所以不知道你們執著的點到底是在哪主要的是因為考慮到那個發財老就是說他有可能變動譬如說他0到20歲孩子的變動因為我們在托育補助裡面其實可以看到他如果孩子不適應他其實就會帶回去或者是轉托所以他有可能這個是會變動那因為如果我們去查的時候他其實公告的跟我實際狀況不一樣他來不及變動其實他要被處罰"},{"start":26299.981,"end":26323.849,"text":"所以換句話說他的頻率是不是也許不見得是每天可是他不見得是半年他有可能是一段時間一個月或者是半個月他就必須要調整隨時必須調整所以這件事情我們也是考慮到托育機構其實他真的主要的工作他應該是要照顧好孩子如果這麼多的行政工作都被要求的時候而且有罰則的時候會不會對他是造成一些負荷"},{"start":26328.325,"end":26356.904,"text":"可是這也是預防的一種因為我們本來就期待是說家長一起來監督就是說今天如果說很多又會變成說政府管理不周可是實際上每天家長他在面對孩子的一個拖延中心他就比較會比政府部門更清楚知道相關的資訊那如果他這樣會去了解到現場的人甚至有沒有超收的問題我覺得目前現在現況也是超收的狀況並不是"},{"start":26359.045,"end":26383.64,"text":"沒有那你政府又不能掌握可是每次常常都是出事之後我們再來檢討檢討沒有用啊孩子都嚴重受傷或者甚至死亡的時候你再去檢討有時候就是人數配比不夠的時候反而容易延伸意外傷害或事故傷害那為什麼不是管控在前面讓家長知道之後他可以去監督管理而不是每一次你三年才評鑑一次像托嬰中心"},{"start":26384.66,"end":26405.212,"text":"然後平常的事實上是所謂的訪視輔導那個時間點又不多所以就變成說很多時候出事又覺得事實上是政府要負責任那怎麼不是把責任回到家長然後讓家長一起來跟我們監督管理呢所以我還是要問那個困難到底在哪邊還有"},{"start":26411.127,"end":26437.265,"text":"那我想剛剛林委員講的我覺得我們可能應該是那我們就把它加進去那就是要求托育機構要配合不好意思那個副助就是我們把它就是他列為他要公開的資訊這樣子要求托育機構配合好那就把可不可以把條列出來給我們看"},{"start":26440.464,"end":26463.782,"text":"就是照林月琴委員的文字嗎對然後順序就放在第四款第四款之後的第五款就是行政院版本的那我們第34條就依行政院提案及委員林月琴提案修正通過確定一下文字"},{"start":26485.989,"end":26505.15,"text":"這個有一個問題就是說跟著這一條東西因公開事項增加了這個以後他的條罰則就會定在69條那69條這樣一定下去的話他就直接開罰了沒有限期改善嘛"},{"start":26505.911,"end":26528.578,"text":"那但是就是說像會發生一個問題就是說托嬰中心會把托兒的月齡分班但是因為0到2歲的發展變化比較快所以分班上會變動比較快那如果稍微沒有隨著改就馬上被開罰而不是限期改善這樣子的確是會有一點點"},{"start":26530.539,"end":26553.762,"text":"因為你就是要公開你沒有公開然後就開罰沒有限期改善然後這個幼兒園不會不像幼兒園幼幼班到小班會花一年但是嬰兒托嬰中心大家就可能真的是比較容易變動可能幾個月就變動一次就改一次沒有跟上直接開罰"},{"start":26555.163,"end":26584.287,"text":"啊這個配套上應該怎麼做我不是反對喔但是說配套上應該怎麼做因為他會連動到罰則第69條的罰則直接開罰那我們配套要真的這麼嚴格像幼兒園的部分不是幼兒園啦托嬰中心的部分直接開罰要這麼嚴格嗎啊如果不要的話要怎麼處理啊如果要我也不堅持只是說要這麼嚴我也沒意見啊"},{"start":26587.096,"end":26605.903,"text":"我等如果會覺得這樣那是不是要到69條的時候再去討論因為署任委員聚焦的事實上是針對於那個我不是反對公開而是說在托嬰中心裡面的那個月齡分班他是月齡去分班的嘛那他分班你公告的數據跟實際的數據可能"},{"start":26608.624,"end":26622.749,"text":"不对因为几个月月龄就公布一次你没有马上几个月就更正一次托婴中心有这么多的行这么好的行政效率马上可以更正吗那没有的话以前还有限期改善那现在没有限期改善直接开法"},{"start":26623.749,"end":26644.813,"text":"那那這樣子會不會很嚴格啦在執行面上真的是會不會造成他們很大的行政成本那我們到底是要怎麼樣我也不堅持但是就是說69條在討論就是說我不反對公開啦但是處罰和限期改善這樣的機制有辦法再透過69條就就就那個嗎"},{"start":26649.782,"end":26674.94,"text":"就是其他都還好了其他都是比較重要的這34條的其他款都是比較重要的事項這個淑芬委員講的其實也有道理就是說應該要符合那個比例原則因為如果看到你69條你前面處罰的這一些通常也都是比較我們覺得很重要的應該要做才會直接開罰"},{"start":26676.321,"end":26703.728,"text":"那至於公開這一個你的章程跟這個新增加的這個原額編制特別是原額編制我想這是應該揭露但是不至於到是直接用直接開發而且如果他有變動性的話你會以什麼為依據就是是不符合實質的編制嗎還是因為他的確會有那個更動性變動性高的時候他可能只是疏忽"},{"start":26704.688,"end":26722.737,"text":"那如果少了一個緩衝的機制直接就開罰的確剛剛淑芬委員提醒的也蠻好會不會有過眼對這個也是我們行政部門剛剛考慮到也有跟委員報告其實因為是有罰則了好就說而且我們在兩歲之前他其實混搬剛剛有提到其實他孩子因為我們的時間很短"},{"start":26723.277,"end":26746.575,"text":"其实他有可能是就要换班了好这件事情那有一些是让大的孩子跟小的孩子是在一起那而且我们各县市的抽查的这个访托应中心我们几乎都是不预警所以这件事情其实就是我们县市的访查人员去到的时候如果这个资讯是要公开的他不合他们其实就会开罚了"},{"start":26747.662,"end":26764.49,"text":"因為他有可能今天變動可是還來不及作業因為有可能孩子就是剛好剛談到是他變化可是早上就去查核然後發現他就不跟公告的資訊是不符合那依照我們現在的這個條文69條其實就是直接開罰這樣子行政組織不會那麼"},{"start":26776.185,"end":26777.31,"text":"緣和編制的確它有變動性"},{"start":26781.192,"end":26807.435,"text":"可是真正變動性大概也不會像剛剛各位講的一個月就要去會變動啦那否則就要回來問是說那在什麼樣的地方你可以要求去公開當然我們也沒有覺得說你要配合法則可是沒有這個一個公開訊息的話往往過去不做那事實上超收的狀況根本沒有辦法解決因為家長也沒辦法預警也沒辦法去去了解到他們有超收因為跟老師的人是配不起來的"},{"start":26808.275,"end":26835.286,"text":"當的確你會講說我前面已經有托育相關人員了然後後面也有講是說收托的人數可是這樣不會去配對這個東西甚至有時候這個人呢如果沒有事實上是清楚的去配搬讓老師讓家長知道的話往往有時候這些名單搞不好都有虛假的名單可是如果有這樣子的一個搭配行政組織跟員額的整個搭配下來的話就會比較讓家長事實上是比較清楚"},{"start":26835.746,"end":26860.172,"text":"所以我不反對說如果不要立案這條沒問題可是要在哪邊我覺得可能我們的衛福部這邊是不是可以提出我對這一點蠻堅持的可是因為搭配罰則的確會像蘇芬委員講的那可能一次沒有做到馬上就去開罰那可是有沒有什麼其他的機制可以去否則就是這一條先保留等回來你們有沒有其他的那個我們再回來"},{"start":26861.021,"end":26875.397,"text":"就是說公開是可以是好事啦但是說在處罰上面要不要拿幾個比較情節輕微的是可以緩衝的哪幾些是一定要立即開罰的要不要分級去管理這樣子"},{"start":26884.458,"end":26902.26,"text":"衛福部有沒有資源 沒有的話我們就先行保留我們先保留 先想一下 因為我們目前的修法對於托育機構的違法全部都是先開罰 沒有說叫他先改所以如果這一條是要讓他就跟我們原來的不太一樣我們先保留 我們想一下"},{"start":26918.177,"end":26922.186,"text":"接下來是陳培宇委員40條跟林淑芬委員的42條"},{"start":26927.426,"end":26953.142,"text":"那個跟委員報告這一條我們在行政部門的條文裡面是是沒有的那我們是因為我們剛剛原來在前面的第七條跟第八條我們對於中央第五條第六條中央主管機關地方主管機關是已經有規範要協助托育人員組織及家長組織之成立這樣子"},{"start":26954.543,"end":26981.979,"text":"那林淑芬委員跟柴培委員這個規定是大概是對於要協助他成立的這個組織有訂了一些相關的規定這樣子那我們是建議是說如果委員覺得這是可以我們也是個行政部門是可以採納就把它再列列加進來可是調次的部分就要再調整委員有沒有意見"},{"start":26987.724,"end":26993.593,"text":"那這條條次還沒辦法 可是就照委員林淑芬等25人提案通過"},{"start":27010.955,"end":27023.241,"text":"接下來陳培宇委員第41條跟林淑芬委員的43條"},{"start":27039.95,"end":27065.001,"text":"林委員的版本跟陳培宇委員的版本還有陳慶輝委員的版本個別不同的是在序文的部分那一個是針對機構托育人員一個是針對托育專業人員那我們都參採委員提出來的版本所以我們的文字是把居家托育人員跟機構托育人員並列"},{"start":27068.403,"end":27088.795,"text":"都應成年並具備下列資格之一那至於林淑芬委員跟陳培鈺委員提到居家托育服務中心的工作人員資格要由中央主管機關定之那我們因為前面的第一項的文字有做修正所以我們在第二項的文字也並同修正"},{"start":27089.375,"end":27109.29,"text":"那剛剛有提到托育相關的人員包含托育機構的工作人員是不是我們這邊也要一併做處理就是托育相關人員及居家托育服務中心工作人員之資格及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之那以上說明請委員確認一下現在螢幕上打的字眼"},{"start":27135.245,"end":27149.614,"text":"抱歉 因為我們本來是講居家托育人 居家相關人員及居家托育服務中心工作人員的資格因為這個"},{"start":27152.813,"end":27182.462,"text":"名詞定義就是在托育專業人員就有包含主管人員進去所以我們是不是能夠用托育專業人員否則的話好像沒有把主管放進去那托育的主管人員到也應該要具備這些資格吧主管不是負責人是主管"},{"start":27184.964,"end":27199.562,"text":"所以是不是照我們的版本就是托育專業人員應具備下面的職格那最後才是居家托育服務中心的工作人員資格由這個中央主管機關訂定"},{"start":27204.824,"end":27226.229,"text":"就是像托嬰中心的主管人員如果沒有托育的職能他有辦法管理現場嗎不是老闆 就是管理現場的人管理現場的人如果沒有托育的職能那這樣子是好的嗎如果我們都要這麼管理的話是不是連主管人員"},{"start":27228.01,"end":27243.184,"text":"這樣的寫法就是沒有包含主管人員那但是如果我們把它變成托育專業人員那就是包含了主管人員了差別就是在這裡要不要把主管人員納管啊我想應該是要的吧"},{"start":27245.204,"end":27263.17,"text":"那個跟委員說明我們會這樣修改是因為我們有看到委員的第44條的提案是針對主管人員去規範資格那如果第44條也參加委員的意見那沒有做委員所提的第43條這個版本是要用托育專業人員"},{"start":27264.27,"end":27285.158,"text":"但是因為我們考量現在的主管人員他是定待授權法規所以才在做這樣的一個條文修正的時候特別把主管人員排除會在授權法規去處理那在這部法的這邊就是先定居家托育人員跟機構托育人員那以上說明"},{"start":27287.644,"end":27303.156,"text":"可是像處分委員提到 結果你現在初步的只是針對於托育跟機構的托育人員可是相對主管到底什麼年資資格反而又要授權執法那為什麼會是主管反而沒在這邊訂"},{"start":27304.597,"end":27329.304,"text":"然後基礎的這樣一個管理者非常重要就是說他像過去幼兒園也是要多少年的年資才可以受園長的訓練才可以擔任就你授權執法又在這邊訂的比較事實上是基礎然後其他的人又不在這邊訂我覺得這有點很特別就是說只把居家托育人員跟機構托育人員列出來而已"},{"start":27331.592,"end":27356.327,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想我們就是我們調整一下我們就是把前面的就是依照委員林淑芬委員的這個版本就是托育專業人員我們訂資格然後另外就是把托育托育主管的人員的資格也參照林委員的建議訂不過我們希望是在後面是因為主管人員的服務年資的認定及其他相關的採計"},{"start":27358.268,"end":27384.485,"text":"因為他依前條第二項所定的辦法是不是 你還要定辦法嗎所以你的這個條文你們應該是怎麼處理要參採我們的第一項就是托育專業人員納管嘛對不對托育專業人員那你其他工作人員都會漏了前面不是在講說廚師什麼"},{"start":27386.587,"end":27397.555,"text":"沒有啦 這個不用管廚師這個就是現場在照顧的第一線的像托嬰中心的主任就是主管人員了"},{"start":27399.352,"end":27425.714,"text":"就是我們的第一項就是托育專業人員我們是建議要加第二項嘛因為第一項我們就照林委員講的托育專業人員的資格就是保姆技術師托育專業人員然後他就是高中以上相關科系嘛那另外一個因為我們還有對於居家因為居家托育中服務中心的工作人員好這個第二項他的資格可能就是不一樣"},{"start":27426.474,"end":27449.497,"text":"好對另外再授權給你們去訂所以我們要加第二項這樣子由中央主管機關訂之然後另外委員剛剛提到的是托育機構就是主管人員不是啊只要是托育專業人員就是含主管了啦對可是主管的版本就是啦主管的資格是不一樣的資格在下一條啊對資格在下一條啊"},{"start":27451.966,"end":27473.446,"text":"就是有一條新的就是主管人員的資格這樣子那你就參考我們的下一條就可以了就是說這一條講的是托育專業人員函主管要把它函進去但主管不是只有這樣的資格主管還有下面更嚴格的不同的不同層次"},{"start":27476.534,"end":27502.195,"text":"我先就叫衛福部因為過去托育中心跟幼兒園本來人是不互相留用的狀態因為考量到托育中心過去現在講托育中心照顧是0到2歲那幼兒園事實上是照顧家是3到6歲這樣子的一個訓練兩邊的機制是不一樣的可是你現在主管人員事實上是都OK那我說"},{"start":27503.656,"end":27531.523,"text":"因為培育委員跟淑芬委員的版本事實上是都OK那我說你們現在要全部參採嗎甚至安置機構的也要參採嗎因為安置機構更是不一樣那你現在有確定要這樣走嗎因為我是比較不太贊成因為這個過去的專業訓練就是就是說他們在照顧的孩子年齡層就差異非常大甚至安置機構更是那你現在要要一樣參採嗎"},{"start":27532.833,"end":27548.46,"text":"我想你先確認說他的年資的採認是不是就是他是不是在安置機構小孩子的經驗裡邊就你現在要用月琴我們是不是在下一條對44條43條有決定好了嗎43條決定好了我們再來看44條43條3就照這樣子好不好"},{"start":27578.569,"end":27585.415,"text":"就是在你前面第三條的定義你的托育專業人員是包含居家托育人員主管人員及機構托育人員"},{"start":27590.629,"end":27598.178,"text":"有包含主管所以你這一條原來原來你想涵蓋的範圍到底到哪裡"},{"start":27601.618,"end":27628.566,"text":"因为你前面的定义你们前面定义你的托育专业人员工作人员跟托育相关人员他是就是层层套叠你的托育相关人员指负责人有一些是积极资格有一些是消极资格托育专业人员及工作人员你的相关人员你有把负责人专业人员跟工作人员通通都有涵盖进来那你的专业人员是有包含主管的"},{"start":27631.727,"end":27633.798,"text":"專業人員本來就要包含主管"},{"start":27641.365,"end":27665.82,"text":"托育專業人員就含主管人員了所以是不是可以不用再謀法特別去規範主管人員的資格而由授權法規來定托育專業人員含主管人員拘托人員以及托育人員的資格原先的那個資格有很多層次有些積極資格有些是消極資格資格當然對應的不一樣這個講是托育專業但基本的"},{"start":27669.693,"end":27671.736,"text":"托育專業就是有托育人員和主管"},{"start":27681.663,"end":27707.028,"text":"這個是積極資格但我們希望還要再兼備下列資格這是44條43條我們是不是先可以同意我覺得43條跟44條會連動如果前面寫托育專業人員就已經含主管了定義前面那你又講說要這些然後等於後邊44條又加列說那主管那這樣子跟法之間是不是會有我到底要遵循哪一個"},{"start":27709.088,"end":27733.685,"text":"另外一個就是說如果44條訂的話這個就不應該是托育專業人員如果沒有要的話不要再訂44條那這邊他們還沒有通過他們也是保留因為那應該問我因為這是我們原本的設計但是呢他們就當時在審44條的時候當時行政部門並沒有同意我們的版本"},{"start":27738.157,"end":27752.443,"text":"好 那個跟委員報告我們大概再說明一下剛剛我們就是因為托育專業人員就誠如委員剛剛提到我們其實在名詞的定義裡面托育專業人員是指居家托育人員主管人員及機構托育人員"},{"start":27753.363,"end":27768.497,"text":"所以我們在行政部門的版本在這一條參採委員的意見所以我們是把把托育專業人員委員的版本的托育專業人員我們定為是居家托育人員及機構托育人員"},{"start":27769.719,"end":27789.318,"text":"這個是大概是在我們這一條的第一項是這樣訂的那我們第二項呢其實就寫了托育專業人員局因為我們在這個領域裡面還有居家托育服務中心的工作人員所以他也有一些資格的問題所以我們在第二項就是這個是由我們中央訂執法來規範這樣子"},{"start":27791.921,"end":27808.099,"text":"對我說主管自為關鍵結果又反而是主管是要去執法來規範然後我們的居家托育人員機構的托育人員層次上比較低的又放在母法裡邊這很少這樣子就是說強度因為管理者才是更為重要"},{"start":27808.9,"end":27830.255,"text":"那反而在這邊沒有訂所以我認為應該要如果要訂就是要脫鉤一個就是像你前向的就是居家托育人員及機構的托育人員要哪些資格然後才有辦法去訂第44條你只要把工作人員居家就托育服務中心的工作人員資格去授權執法"},{"start":27831.756,"end":27856.306,"text":"那還算OK可是這樣子才有必要再去訂主管而且我覺得主管一定要訂那才會有培育委員跟淑芬委員的第44條等下再來討論可是如果你一旦寫了前面寫了居家應該講的托育專業人員的話那抱歉主管又訂進去那也很奇怪可是你寫這樣子的話一樣你又把主管授權執法我覺得這兩個都不通"},{"start":27858.539,"end":27882.262,"text":"我可不可以再說明一下月琴就是說我們和托盟的這個版本的意思是說它有很多層的這第一層是基本款43條就是基本款就是所有托育專業的人員都要有的基本保姆資格或相關科系畢業就是大家都要有專業的人員大家都要有"},{"start":27882.862,"end":27909.42,"text":"那43條基本款以外呢44條就講到主管了他是43條還要再加上年資和特別要求所以這個第二層就要疊上去就是說他還要其他的資格就是44條本來就是第一層再疊上第二層所以更嚴格的標準所以主管就不是只有第一層的標準還要加上第二層的標準"},{"start":27910.06,"end":27937.904,"text":"所以在這裡是托育的基本款再加上年資然後再加上他的相關的這個受訓練這樣子這個就像教保員一樣教保的體系就是這樣子教保員不會一定可以不一定可以直接當院長教保員也是要加年資再加受訓才可以當院長那我們希望這個托育機構的主管就是要"},{"start":27938.504,"end":27954.066,"text":"托育人員這個資格再加上特別的資格這樣子所以是兩層疊上去的那主管一定是比一般的這個居家托育比一般的托育人員還要更嚴格這樣子"},{"start":27956.459,"end":27985.19,"text":"可是這樣寫就要請那個衛福部自己解釋因為在第一層只要高中然後到第二層要大學是這樣嗎因為如果我我連我認為主管前面我你寫我我高中就可以然後現在後來後邊的那個又不是說年資如果說今天因為主管我們要求年資你的第一層基礎我高中畢業就可以然後這邊只是講年資還好可是沒有的話跟目前現在提出來的托盟版本會是第一層高中"},{"start":27986.37,"end":28011.813,"text":"進來的 要大學不會 你前面就說我可以我可以作為主管那就變成有一點事實上是好 這樣講好了這樣子比較像是說主管一定要由這個托育體系的人員上去的這樣的養成就像教保員的園長教保員年資授訓我當然是希望是這樣的體系上去不要空降也不要沒有經驗的來"},{"start":28013.214,"end":28039.37,"text":"本來是希望這樣子的那是不是我覺得分那就分兩條來管理嘛來續名嘛第一條就只有清楚的寫居家托育人員就按照不一定居家只要是托育人員對居家托育人員跟機構托育人員都應該可以應該成年而且要具備下列資格到第二在下一條直接用去訂主管人員這樣反而會比較清楚"},{"start":28040.717,"end":28067.05,"text":"那前面就不要寫所謂的托育專業人員因為你定義專業人員就已經含主管了我覺得這或許是可以修正的方向但是就是說基本上這個就是第一層我們的這個還是會變成什麼就是說我們是希望整個體系是從基層上來然後有經驗的然後再疊上去的是這樣子"},{"start":28069.079,"end":28085.984,"text":"而不是來自於一個只要大學然後有其他領域的資歷然後就可以來當主管人員那個在44條就會你的就是脫門版本你的44條就有會寫到說要在哪裡好有什麼什麼經驗才會可以來做所以我覺得"},{"start":28087.245,"end":28105.387,"text":"應該是等一下可以試試調論只是現在這個版本的話前面的43條院同不同意不要用所謂的托育專業人員那就會涵蓋主管就直接用院版的居家托育人員及機構托育這個我想一下這個我覺得這個方向我可以想一下"},{"start":28106.848,"end":28134.911,"text":"邏輯上好像也可以通啊但是實務上會遇到什麼問題我是不是再跟再想一下先保留一下那也要麻煩淑恩委員想一下因為到第二二項的時候還要解決的是因為原本這邊院版是有把你的意見涵蓋進去說托育專業人員及居家托育服務中心的工作人員的資格跟其他相關事項的辦法要中央主管機關定制"},{"start":28135.331,"end":28155.308,"text":"那這樣子的話主管44條就不用寫了為什麼因為托育專業人員就涵蓋主管他要另訂辦法就不會要有44條這也要想清楚對所以我們後來修正我是建議說居家托育服務中心的工作人員其資格居托中心的另外要去訂定這樣子嗎"},{"start":28157.901,"end":28177.616,"text":"刚才不是这样对啦我们有新的修正那要这两条都先保留吗43 44没有啦43就是这样可是43跟44是有联动的是联动的这个那个原来卫福部提出来的就是给大家的资料书面的这一个资料是"},{"start":28177.856,"end":28200.391,"text":"事實上我覺得他那個層次就還蠻完整的就是你這邊提到的居家跟機構的托育人員就是你基本應該要有的資格你就明定了但是關於專業人員還有居服中心的工作人員資格由中央來訂定這個就是改成托育相關人員就行了嗎"},{"start":28204.366,"end":28208.46,"text":"托育相關人員的資格及其他相關事項"},{"start":28215,"end":28244.021,"text":"也可以只是我觉得那个淑芬有人可能思考一下就是真的有一些那个相关的规定是不是一定要列在母法这边因为那个其实还蛮就是以你们44条的写法其实还蛮多的那那个是不是授权让主管去定定就好了我们到底是在讲43还是44因为我一直43 44是联动的要一起讲43 44要一起讲不是啦因为43跟44到底这个行政部门的意见在哪里都没有听到啊"},{"start":28245.674,"end":28267.325,"text":"現在的43就已經涵蓋所有包括居家托育人員 機構托育人員他們沒有然後下面他講托育專業人員跟居家托育服務中心人員他要另外去訂就是授權給他們他們在去訂他們本來沒有43他按照你跟培育的意見已經修一個版本在現在看那個螢幕上的你看你看紙本68頁有"},{"start":28273.792,"end":28299.744,"text":"我們是請中央 不要就請這個衛福部表示意見好不好我們原來的想法就是這一條其實就是規範居家托育人員及機構托育人員的資格那另外就是托育的專業人員大概就是主管人員還有居托人員跟主管人員跟機構的托育人員"},{"start":28302.105,"end":28319.473,"text":"人員我們在還有居家托育服務中心的工作人員的資格另外我們定授權辦法在授權辦法訂定這本來是我們提出來的為什麼前面有把這兩個資格寫你的托育專業人員只少了一個主管然後又說要訂定"},{"start":28321.834,"end":28340.199,"text":"這樣子月琴我懂了啦這一條這樣子啊你們的第二項拿掉我們這裡就是講托育的不管是居托的還是機構的托育的人他必須要有這一個積極資格就是你要要有技術士的執照或者是要相關科系畢業嘛就是這樣子那"},{"start":28341.62,"end":28350.953,"text":"我們對主管要有更高一階的這個條件資格上的要求所以44條就是單獨把主管就放在44條這樣子"},{"start":28353.14,"end":28382.6,"text":"那也要再確認蘇芬委員因為原本你們還有個居家托育服務中心的工作人員要不要授權他們由中央主管機關定資對因為居家托育服務中心還有其他的工作人員這個工作人員就比較不是第一可能就不是第一現場在照顧小孩的也不是發生問題的時候第一現場要向主管要做判斷這個可以就是要就授權給他們就是居家托育服務中心"},{"start":28384.962,"end":28407.381,"text":"工作人員的資格及應該改成說這個對居托中心的托育相關人員的資格由中央主管機關定之所以是同意把那個前面的托育專業人員及這幾個字拿掉嘛前面改成是就是他們原來的原版的版本居托中心的"},{"start":28409.224,"end":28431.656,"text":"其他工作人員資格由中央主管機關訂定因為主管資格另外訂嘛然後托育人員也是就這裡有訂了那就是其他的工作人員的資格由中央主管機關去訂定你的其他工作人員是講托育機構的其他工作人員還是居福中心的工作人員這兩個是不同的"},{"start":28433.615,"end":28455.864,"text":"原来的事实上是居扶中心他们写的事实上是居托中心也就是居家托育中心的人居扶中心因为我们前面定义当中还有托育机构的其他工作人员所以要的是什么我们本来想的就是居扶中心但是刚刚讲的那些厨师他们也可以放上去"},{"start":28457.475,"end":28485.712,"text":"就是居府中心的其他工作人員的資格應該說居府中心工作人員的資格及其他相關事項的辦法由中央主管機關訂定之因為之前有談到儲供因為剛剛前面我們有討論到說儲供護士要在這邊訂那要授權嗎還是說只有居家托育服務中心的工作人員這兩個不同的"},{"start":28488.223,"end":28507.051,"text":"就是拘托中心的工作人員因為剛剛我們前面調次在討論的時候有提到的除工跟護士大概都是托嬰中心的人那是另外一個那你要放嗎還是不要放當時是說要放在哪一條我忘掉了就是放這一條當時你們是建議放在這對是這一條"},{"start":28509.201,"end":28532.075,"text":"我覺得好像可以在另外也可以放上去整合在一起報告主席因為本來是在我們那個架構裡面現在可以整合在一起可以稍微休息一下這兩條再好好處理一下整合在一起那我們休息因為我們的版本是放在原始那一條我們休息五分鐘請行政部門跟我覺得再溝通再討論一下好不好"},{"start":28535.309,"end":28546.387,"text":"啊 現在幾點 4點半 我們討論多久了差1個小時喔區購中心不一樣 區購中心是準公權利的區購"},{"start":28550.975,"end":28565.007,"text":"居多中心不是啦,是監督機制,居多人員就是保護,機構裡面的國喻人員也是保護。"},{"start":28565.887,"end":28576.07,"text":"因為他們前一條要放進來本來你要用托育的專業人員按照他的第二項這是第一項嗎第二項居托"},{"start":28596.286,"end":28603.409,"text":"居托中心的人托嬰中心的其他工作人員這兩個都應該要兼局吧在哪裡"},{"start":28612.325,"end":28618.009,"text":"現在人員資格要在這邊啊然後再來就是44條才是44條才是主管啊44條才是主管這樣才會清楚啊"},{"start":28629.877,"end":28642.842,"text":"還有早上沒有處理到的東西,新的問題啊。還有早上沒有處理到的東西,新的問題啊。"},{"start":28662.889,"end":28668.494,"text":"對 沒錯啦對 要拿下來嗎對 應該要下來了吧"},{"start":28690.705,"end":28692.846,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":28697.861,"end":28700.064,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":28716.858,"end":28729.562,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":28738.553,"end":28757.925,"text":"因為會熊呢,會有奶粉。奶粉?奶木卡拉,是中國大陸的奶粉。奶木卡拉,是中國大陸的奶粉。奶木卡拉,是中國大陸的奶粉。奶木卡拉,是中國大陸的奶粉。"},{"start":28762.622,"end":28767.486,"text":"他媽媽,他媽媽,他媽媽,他媽媽,他媽媽,他媽媽,"},{"start":28795.235,"end":28810.767,"text":"那個真的要問他後來用送的,送補救的"},{"start":28818.955,"end":28835.415,"text":"要知道幼兒園嗎?對啊,要知道幼兒園,你看小姐,中間一個動物,一個維美社群,人家把牠放進袋子裡面勾起,對啊,太什麼玩笑,根本就不一樣,我的故事。"},{"start":28836.256,"end":28852.568,"text":"那真的有血還行,才會覺得願他盡心盡力當忙。"},{"start":28861.471,"end":28875.944,"text":"他正不回來他正不回來那我們就在這邊空窗暴風吐大家都站起來"},{"start":28877.465,"end":28877.485,"text":"趕快"},{"start":28901.859,"end":28919.036,"text":"很認真又敬業很認真又敬業最常開到下午欸 到底他真的不要回來啊那現在就到此為止好不好"},{"start":28923.045,"end":28927.331,"text":"我們早上是一起走的,早上日系走一條嗎?"},{"start":28940.146,"end":28947.128,"text":"他就說要放到後面啊五點啊那五點才要送過來我老實說我沒有拿過"},{"start":28964.132,"end":28976.758,"text":"看不到搖擺開始要求不讓他解決嗎44條我有多堅持還是說我們就一直拖拖到該演辦站在這邊了好像不錯的要怎樣 因為修法蠻嚴重的"},{"start":28987.644,"end":28990.99,"text":"就是嘛 你們都這樣那怎麼都OK呀就別這麼沒完沒了"},{"start":29015.258,"end":29034.891,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":29042.85,"end":29047.493,"text":"有啦好"},{"start":29073.807,"end":29075.448,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":29097.381,"end":29108.063,"text":"對"},{"start":29116.987,"end":29132.305,"text":"這樣整天做早餵就好了啦那不是要蒸雞,要蒸雞怎麼做早餵?這樣是不是比較辛苦,不用回去做嗎?"},{"start":29133.146,"end":29158.558,"text":"你看,你看王玉民,跟坐在這裡就是沒有要算啦你怎麼知道?你怎麼知道我要算啦,我要算你跟坐在這裡就是沒有要算啦因為這步伐很重要,我就坐在這裡沒有,你整個步伐都坐在這裡,坐到後面我認真啊,你怎麼可以這樣說所以你就沒有要算啦我認真啊所以我要算錢,你的管理員都沒有坐在這裡啦"},{"start":29159.418,"end":29169.346,"text":"你怎麼可以這麼篤定,我不能兩邊兼顧嗎?很難啦!我不能兩邊兼顧,兩下也不可以算了兩下不可以算了喔?對阿,他說多少在這裡都是要算的早晚的雞排,五點"},{"start":29185.908,"end":29198.862,"text":"五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿"},{"start":29203.787,"end":29227.663,"text":"那你在這裡要授權給這位服務去訂定的就不能再包含這兩類的因為你把他們涵蓋進去就全部都要授權給他們這兩個會有禁服這樣子你不要轉來對啊 他們要交給其他工作 其他人員來你轉來嗎其他人員來你死牙子快死了"},{"start":29239.189,"end":29252.594,"text":"買雞排給大家吃嗎現在要選縣長要方方面面其他其他人員他就寫其他人員啊你們之後要看到五點到五點半就發完雞排就下課特殊規定然後你又授權給他"},{"start":29266.874,"end":29274.233,"text":"好 我們現在繼續林淑芬委員的第43條是不是請我們衛福部來放到螢幕上讓大家看"},{"start":29284.768,"end":29297.812,"text":"剛跟委員溝通我們在第二項的文字修正為居家托育服務中心工作人員及托育機構其他人員之資格及相關事項辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":29301.247,"end":29321.724,"text":"這樣子可以但是有一個我想說你是不是在立法說明欄裡面其他人員紫色的是什麼可以舉個例子像是廚工啊護理師啊點點點這樣子免得我們不知道這個其他人員紫色的是什麼這樣子立法說明欄而已衛福部針對林淑芬委員OK"},{"start":29334.677,"end":29351.626,"text":"那這一條就照林淑芬委員的提案修正通過那我們就繼續陳培瑜委員的42條跟林淑芬委員是4條針對主管人員那是不是請我們的衛福部先做說明"},{"start":29353.651,"end":29370.003,"text":"有關陳培宇委員跟林淑芬委員的版本是一樣的只是在序文的部分陳培宇委員多了托育機構之這四個字那事實上在我們第三條的名詞定義就已經有說明了主管人員講的就是托育機構的主管人員"},{"start":29371.204,"end":29399.195,"text":"那下面的四款的資格這個是現行的托育機構主管人員的資格那在第二項的部分是對於主管人員他的一些過往的服務年資的一個採認那他有四款那採認的有包括原來過往的托兒所跟幼稚園或改制後幼兒園的教保人員助理教保人員教師教保員及助理教保員那還有托育中心的托育人員"},{"start":29400.035,"end":29415.923,"text":"以及藻寮机构的藻寮教保人员跟藻寮助理教保人员还有安置级教养机构的托育人员那刚刚委员有提到安置级教养机构事实上在很早以前他们事实上有时候0到2岁的当时候也是用托育人员"},{"start":29416.403,"end":29432.027,"text":"那我們是為了保障如果那一群人他現在還是有在服務的話那他要來轉任主管人員除了前面第一項的學經歷都要符合之外他的過往的年資的一個經驗可以採認那以上說明"},{"start":29435.036,"end":29461.805,"text":"所以我要問的就是因為之前剛開始有設立拖延中心那時候幼兒園跟拖延中心事實上是人員不能夠互相去留用好因為為什麼零到兩歲跟三到六歲是不一樣的所以幼兒園的資歷事實上是沒有辦法作為化成要去管理拖延中心的經驗一樣拖延中心也不會被幼兒園採任嗎因為畢竟你照顧零到兩歲跟三到六歲不一樣這是第一個第二個是安置機構的一樣他們的"},{"start":29463.726,"end":29477.482,"text":"管理照顧的這些方式也都不太一樣甚至目前有在安置機構的那個托育人員他們在安置機構的所有的教學"},{"start":29478.703,"end":29504.074,"text":"要講照顧方式跟教保模式都沒有的狀況底下他們比較是生活照顧面甚至環境也不一樣可是現在你要把它作為事實上是可以來做管理這個職務的話我要問的是這樣子的經驗值有沒有落差甚至你們有沒有可以比較能夠說明這是OK的否則我們一樣擔心的是過去為什麼沒有沒有的考量就是因為托嬰中心是比較年幼的小孩"},{"start":29505.514,"end":29522.45,"text":"那他要去管理跟一個安置機構他可能是上安置的孩子大概十幾個跟現在可能會做到一百多個或是九十幾個的托嬰中心要去做管理的話他有這樣子的一個能力嗎"},{"start":29524.151,"end":29550.464,"text":"幼兒園照顧的孩子是比較大可是今天一個托嬰中心的主管他對於教保模式這些東西要能夠充分掌握可是他的教保模式跟幼兒園教保模式根本就是完全不一樣那能不能能夠去帶領工作人員有這樣子的一個概念來做管理甚至執行來維護兒童的最佳利益所以我想問的是幼兒園跟我們的托嬰跟安置機構這一塊"},{"start":29555.143,"end":29559.227,"text":"是跟委員說明事實上這個主管人員的資格跟年資採認現行就是這樣"},{"start":29562.516,"end":29590.648,"text":"現行就是可以採認而且我們很早就放寬托育機構的主管人員可以採認幼兒園的一個年資這是沒有問題的那至於安置機構 深入我剛剛說的它不僅是年資採認它在它的學歷跟它的一個經歷上它都也要符合前面第一項的各款之一的規定所以不是只有年資這個部分可以就它就可以成為托育機構的主管人員"},{"start":29591.388,"end":29601.191,"text":"所以這個只是補充說這只是說在年資採認的時候把他過往的一個服務年資我們可以並記那以上說明"},{"start":29604.768,"end":29627.928,"text":"但我知道你們前面當然有針對於一些要求可是過去他們學的假設比較是幼教的話真的在幼教跟幼兒保育還是有非常大的差異啦所以我不知道就是淑芬委員有沒有什麼因為這是你提出來版本"},{"start":29630.391,"end":29652.156,"text":"其實這個就是現行的規定但是我們還是跟現行規定有一點不同就是我們刪除了具高等考試相當高等考試的各類公務人員的考試社會行政或社會工作職系及格者具兩年以上社會福利相關機構或社會福利機構工作經驗的話這一款我們給他刪除"},{"start":29653.496,"end":29668.659,"text":"那这个删除的理由是说因为主管的资格因为是和其他儿少规定在同一个执法但考量现场需求像托婴中心的主管应该以照顾幼儿经验为主所以才给他删除了"},{"start":29671.081,"end":29687.631,"text":"但是呢像這個刪除以後可能會有被說那這個現有資格人員的資格保障就是信賴保護原則的問題那就像月勤如果你要把這個安置或教養機構托育人員的資格拿掉也一樣會有這個信賴保護的這個問題的質疑所以我們在於負責第85條我們就處理了這一個問題"},{"start":29698.317,"end":29720.889,"text":"所以在這裡裡面看大家要怎麼做沒關係第二個就是說但是在配套裡面對於這些本來有資格的人或是已經在從業的人那你的信賴保護原則要怎麼定可能要考慮一下但是總而言之就是托嬰中心我們真的還是認為說有照顧經驗的是比較重要的"},{"start":29722.69,"end":29728.095,"text":"高考合格的其實是完全不見得有照顧的經驗有照顧的背景我可不可以問一下衛福部就是說"},{"start":29736.906,"end":29760.989,"text":"当然这个署分委员他是把这个主管的资格就是非常详细的调列出来然后还包括他的那个就是对那就是说其实这个有利弊因为你定在母法你就是你动一个什么条件你就要回过头来修法有点旷日废事"},{"start":29761.63,"end":29790.135,"text":"那事實上如果我們是授權讓主管機關他現行其實也是這樣嗎就是他在相關的執法裡面他其實也一樣有非常明確的規定但他一個相對好處就是說如果我們有想到什麼他需要做一些動態性調整跟規範事實上他的反應是比較能根據現況就是做一些必要的調整那我們在魔法把它調列的這麼詳細他們將來如果有哪一個項目需要做一些"},{"start":29791.191,"end":29811.279,"text":"變動的時候我覺得都會比較花的時間會比較久啦這個我想是不是也可以跟團體溝通一下就是說是要這樣子的列法還是因為他說這個也是他們現行也都是完全一模一樣只是搬到母法來而已那這個主管可以表示一下意見到底你們在在"},{"start":29812.719,"end":29831.264,"text":"我們周全這個都沒有問題是放在哪裡的問題那你們怎麼樣在管理上面作為中央主管機關怎麼樣做你們其實是會相對比較有彈性而且比較好作為的你們其實也是可以表達意見我覺得就是大家都互相討論嘛找一個好的模式嘛好不好"},{"start":29834.411,"end":29856.393,"text":"跟委員說明其實我們剛剛在討論淑芬委員的第43條的時候就已經說了當時候我們為什麼不把主管人員定在母法是因為就像剛剛王委員講的如果將來有學校的科系變動的話是不是又要再回過頭來修母法這件事情又要再透過行政院然後再到立法院來"},{"start":29857.074,"end":29880.277,"text":"是不是會因應不及現場的一個需要所以我們才一開始講說在主管人員的這個部分是不是可以在授權法規裡面去處理那的確如果把它擺在模法確實會有實務上因為現在很多大專校院的科系都隨時在變動那我們是不是就會有造成實務執行會跟不上這個法令的一個修正"},{"start":29883.166,"end":29906.259,"text":"可是如果這樣講的話那第43條也不要訂啦因為有一些人員的資格這樣講好了就是說教保服務人員條例的第6條對幼兒園的園長他們的資格也是這樣子訂那為什麼講這個是因為這種資格本來就不能一直修啊不可能你說要彈性化一直修事實上本來"},{"start":29907.179,"end":29934.386,"text":"幼兒園園長也沒有這樣子他們在法律裡面定的那職業的權利也不宜太常變動啦所以在這種狀況裡面大家看一下有沒有可其他的點可以再討論的要不然的話入法已入法會失去修正的彈性那你要想有什麼東西是會經常修正的如果沒有的話那為什麼不"},{"start":29936.309,"end":29946.214,"text":"就是這幾點有什麼會經常需要修正的或者是我們在想有沒有哪一點是我們沒有思考到現在給他放上去那院長幼兒園的院長都沒有問題為什麼這個托嬰中心的主管人員就不行"},{"start":29956.693,"end":29985.041,"text":"那但是你說科系裁刃要不要再重寬或許可以再討論我舉例不一定是這樣子就是大家可以討論這樣子而不要說就不要定母法就改在施行細則裡面讓主管機關隨時可以改我就不知道什麼東西是可以隨時改的什麼東西是需要隨時改的這一種從業職業的這個資格還可以隨時改那也未免有點誇張了"},{"start":29991.563,"end":29999.85,"text":"衛福部這邊因為我也贊成因為今天幼兒園都也是可以這樣訂而且基本上"},{"start":30001.267,"end":30018.54,"text":"這邊也寫得很清楚都已經涵蓋到家政跟護理相關學院也不是只有專門只有幼教跟幼兒保育了已經也有放寬那未來到底有更多學院那也不會是一時半刻就會有變動我們的變不會這麼快速的所以我不知道說會不會考慮剛剛的回應到底"},{"start":30022.063,"end":30034.759,"text":"是基於什麼樣的一個理由在第二個是我想問的是你的第一項的第一款也就是說我們今天承認只要碩士畢業就會管理"},{"start":30035.851,"end":30052.841,"text":"因為其他的都有一定要上主管人員因為我知道主管人員還有一些相關的一個管理的機制甚至危機處理可是在課程裡面一個碩士畢業碩士他只是因為去研究專精一個學位兩年的時間"},{"start":30054.758,"end":30069.003,"text":"做的事實上是在做研究而且事實上是怎麼去做研究可是你現在變成說只要有碩士學位就反而事實上不用去上主管人員的專業訓練這個考量的又是什麼以上"},{"start":30085.271,"end":30093.801,"text":"要不要再開放那些教育那些什麼書那些教育書不是幼法就是一般國小老師如果講到轉念的時候"},{"start":30097.786,"end":30117.219,"text":"應該是大家去朝著說有哪個領域的人其實是也是可以鼓勵他們來轉任這樣子比較務實來討論這樣比較務實而不是說我們不要定在母法這樣子那有沒有其實是可以的涵蓋的領域可以再適合再鼓勵他們轉任的我們沒有想到的"},{"start":30144.765,"end":30147.347,"text":"那個衛福部可不可以請針對處分委員剛意見做說明"},{"start":30154.008,"end":30181.262,"text":"剛剛委員提問就是主管人員的第一款的資格為什麼沒有取得主管人員專業結業證書者那這個是當時候這很久以前在修授權辦法的時候就這樣規定所以就是認為他是又教又保相關科系而且是碩士學位的他又有兩年的經驗原則上那個270小時的主管人員訓練的課程只是"},{"start":30183.383,"end":30205.496,"text":"應該是說只是一些讓他因為不具這些相關科系資格的人然後去受相關的一個訓練取得結業證書會比較合適來當主管人員所以在一開始訂授權辦法的時候就沒有把這些碩士以上學歷的人進去只要求學歷跟經歷"},{"start":30206.637,"end":30229.483,"text":"那第二個就是對於如果擔心未來常常因為也許有科系的變動或因應食物現況的調整那是不是我們可以在第一項增列第五款其他經中央主管機關公告者那這樣是不是就可以比較有一點的彈性也一併就叫委員"},{"start":30238.087,"end":30257.926,"text":"衛福部可不可以把你們建議條文寫上去然後讓我們可以按照你的條文然後做討論第一項第五款其他經中央主管機關公告者"},{"start":30266.075,"end":30286.36,"text":"我觉得这样子是相当有弹性了就是说我们没有想到的或者是我想到的是很多小学老师他们可能很早50出头就就不想做就退休离开那里可是他想要再再到另外一个领域来比如说啦"},{"start":30287.182,"end":30313.475,"text":"或者是當缺少主管很多年輕人不願意再做這種工作的時候中高齡的人想要轉職但是他是他不在我們正面表列的這四款裡面那這個也就這樣子也是必須要解決的時候我們授權給中央主管機關去整體考量看那個需求跟這個供給的問題"},{"start":30315.649,"end":30332.676,"text":"這樣已經是很彈性了 老實說如果你要加一個其他經中央主管機關公告者那其實必須相當嚴謹因為前面都很嚴謹那第五款這樣子好像看起來很輕很鬆你們覺得呢"},{"start":30346.078,"end":30347.28,"text":"其他位有没有意见"},{"start":30358.295,"end":30385.088,"text":"這個社會的變遷有時候真的是超過我們所能想像的就是整個職場的改變真的也有可能是連主管大家都不想當因為主管家沒有多少錢擔當的責任也不小有可能從業的意願就很低但是我們資格上好像沒有再開給其他有意願就是這一款其實是要留給有意願想做"},{"start":30385.948,"end":30411.871,"text":"但是他不符合資格但是也不能夠他想要就直接就給他還是要框在一種條件裡面但是你們要公告是不是也應該要要怎麼樣的訂定出相關的這個資格也不能跟前三款四款差太大差到大家都不用前四款都用第五款那也不行啊"},{"start":30413.188,"end":30436.271,"text":"等一下架空了這個法 架空了這個法主管應該要一二三四款結果大家都用第五款也不行所以這個字眼到底要怎麼寫才是恰當的幼兒有彈性但是不會架空前四款我想這個可能也是要稍微思考一下他沒有辦法馬上說好我馬上就這樣答應"},{"start":30438.103,"end":30452.628,"text":"因為的確也有風險大家都用第五款委員一般我們來講經過中央主管機關公告我們一定會是很嚴謹而且我們目前就是剛剛成如委員剛剛講我們其實要做人力的評估所以我想"},{"start":30453.668,"end":30472.295,"text":"第5個部分我們也會很嚴謹的應該會召開就前面前面也談過嗎我會做一些需求的調查嗎今天早上也把這個放進去那同時如果這個部分也可以納入在調查當中如果發現有有這個主管人力不足的時候我們才會動這一條以上做說明"},{"start":30474.332,"end":30501.474,"text":"你知道我們開放外籍移工都要做那個人力資源的這個調查然後要看那個你是到底是太低薪了還是勞動條件太差了人家不做還是真的在高薪然後人家也是不做這個東西就不一樣了對那所以你到底是到底給主管人員到底是什麼樣的狀況以至於沒有人要從業到時候再說好了我想這條也是稍微保留一下好不好條文內容"},{"start":30502.995,"end":30518.853,"text":"方向是朝這樣的方向好像可以討論對 因為我們剛剛早上討論前面是有一個是要做這個中央應該要做托育需求的調查我們可以同時把主管人員放進去因為要具以定定托育政策所以當然主管人員也是托育政策的一環"},{"start":30523.424,"end":30539.115,"text":"現在寫的第一項的第一款我是比較不同意因為幼兒園像他們園長資格還是要受過園長的專業訓練合格才可以擔任結果你們只要碩士就什麼都不用我認為"},{"start":30540.756,"end":30559.904,"text":"不是這麼合宜所以我認為你只用可是他在碩士訓練又不是因為擔任主管的而做這樣的訓練還比較是在一個研究的這樣的一個訓練在所以反而在這邊你們還反而是開放然後大家就是說你在什麼什麼"},{"start":30561.065,"end":30572.26,"text":"單位工作然後服務滿幾年然後可是第二個一定要受過專業院長的訓練所以我認為是不是要把第一項的第一款拿掉 以上"},{"start":30576.184,"end":30590.533,"text":"現在就是說因為我們這個是從兒少法裡面移過來現行的措施所以我們現在的托育機構裡面的主管人員他有可能是符合這一條的第一款他就是說是那如果我們把這一條拿掉"},{"start":30591.494,"end":30614.513,"text":"那对于这些现在在现场的主管人员可能就会影响到你先新修的法我讲的是说你未来还是应该要要求有一个专业训练因为他就要一体试用所以除非要有一个同一中心本来就有一个主管人员的训练所以你现在是只要硕士就完全不需要任何训练目前是这样子"},{"start":30616.637,"end":30639.652,"text":"那怎麼會這樣定呢因為你們授權辦法所以我就說辦法就會有這種問題就是實景當時我的意思是說辦法就是你們自己內部這樣做嘛對不對對 可是現在就是對於已經現場的主管人員可能就要有一個落日或者是說現場的他已經也有經驗啦他就已經在現場經營托嬰中心啦"},{"start":30640.256,"end":30657.979,"text":"在管理啊在當主管啊不是嗎對那如果他沒有因為我們最少規範他是要兩年的經驗所以他如果主席那這一條先保留好了啦先保留了好那就第一款要不要拿掉然後要不要增加第五款這個大家思考一下"},{"start":30672.463,"end":30692.37,"text":"好接下來我們的院版的36條請衛福部做說明好衛福部說明呃那呃林彥群委員還有林淑芬委員邱若驊委員還有劉建國委員大家都有關心這一條那我想綜合來說其實呃大概有幾個部分好那第一個部分大概就是說希望我們能夠"},{"start":30693.651,"end":30718.474,"text":"就是中央應該建立第36條的裁罰資料跟授權的辦法那另外就是居家托育服務中心的工作人員應該是要在禁止而虐的這個範圍內那還有就是所以我們大概就有參裁委員的建議我們其實是調整了文字所以第36條我們行政部門的法條就做了一些文字的調整"},{"start":30719.175,"end":30734.417,"text":"就是托育相關人員或居家托育服務中心的工作人員不得對受托兒童有身心虐待 體罰 霸凌性騷擾不當管教及其他對兒童之身心暴力或不當對待行為"},{"start":30734.978,"end":30755.35,"text":"那我們也增加了第二項就是前項行為經直轄市縣市主管機關1第57條及第64條規定裁罰者中央主管機關應該要建立裁罰的資料供政府機關構或經其同意之機構法人團體查詢以上說明委員有沒有意見"},{"start":30758.325,"end":30766.494,"text":"沒有的話就依行政院提案林蔚琴委員林淑芬委員的提案修正通過那接下來就是院版的第38條"},{"start":30782.208,"end":30804.758,"text":"那個已經上次那個通過了因為我們也增加了居家托育工作人員所以我們在行政院版本37條可能托育相關人員及居家托育中心工作人員可能我們要補充這幾個字上去才會一體適用OK 謝謝"},{"start":30814.104,"end":30814.145,"text":"谢谢"},{"start":30832.546,"end":30854.487,"text":"對 上37條就已經按照行政院版本通過了但是有一些小的概念要修正一下行政院的版本是只有托育相關人員我們沒有居家托育服務中心的工作人員所以我們要增加這個文字才會托育相關人員和居府中心的工作人員所以你們要把條文繡在上面確定一下"},{"start":30857.679,"end":30885.619,"text":"就是我們37條的第一項我們要增加一些文字這樣就是37條的第一項我們要 因為我們本來行政委員會是托兒育相關人員所以剛剛有討論居家托兒育服務中心工作人員要適用所以我們要增加這個文字好委員們在確認上次通過是要加這一字眼再次確認這字眼好"},{"start":30886.485,"end":30900.969,"text":"那接下來38條那請衛福部說明第38條那我們上一期剛才就有算是修正了喔增列了這個居福中心的工作人員了對"},{"start":30908.255,"end":30923.269,"text":"來請衛福部說明38條38條有關王玉明委員提到的第6款知悉托育服務的知悉服務的托育機構發生疑似性侵害衛醫第48條第一項規定通報"},{"start":30925.171,"end":30950.254,"text":"是再度發生機構內性侵害時的合理性因為我們考量疑似遏制涉及主觀的不確定性難以單一狀況及認定他終身不得擔任托育人員所以我們是參考幼照法第23條規定終身消極資格的一致性所以建議可以維持院版的一個條文至於林月琴委員跟"},{"start":30951.134,"end":30970.817,"text":"王玉明委員還有其他委員提案一定期間不得擔任托育專業人員的年限為1到10年那我們在院版裡面是因為在第39條規定的一定期限的年限是參考幼照法定定是1到4年所以這邊也跟委員來做說明"},{"start":30971.537,"end":30988.742,"text":"至於林淑芬委員的版本以及陳培鈺委員的版本都有提到要增加居家托育服務中心工作人員也納入規範我們也一併修正相關的一個文字以上說明委員們有沒有意見"},{"start":30994.862,"end":31014.919,"text":"蘇恩委員在第一項裡面喔12我不曉得第幾行OK就是托育專業人員工作人員及托育居家托育服務中心的工作人員有下列各款情形之一者托育機構或或後面要是重點居家托育服務中心的受委辦單位應終止契約"},{"start":31015.84,"end":31044.751,"text":"因为居托服务中心他没有具备法人的资格这个都是补助计划代行公权利他也没有立案所以他不是雇主所以目前在签订劳动契约的时候都是这个受以这个居家托育服务中心之受委办单位为雇主所以才想说这后面应该讲一个就是说居家托育服务中心之受委办单位这个应该是这样子"},{"start":31046.28,"end":31059.093,"text":"在這個事格性上啦OK"},{"start":31065.26,"end":31093.222,"text":"好那再來就是第五款第五款就是我們希望有一個懲犯家庭暴力罪經緩起訴處分或有罪判決確定者並經直轄市縣市主管機關認定有終身不得擔任托育相關人員或居家托育服務中心的工作人員的必要的話這一些大概都不要了"},{"start":31095.748,"end":31096.409,"text":"可以照這樣子修訂嗎"},{"start":31109.741,"end":31129.193,"text":"因為懲犯家庭暴力罪者現行的兒少權法缺少相關認定機制所以依現行兒少權法第26條之一的規定懲犯家庭暴力犯罪驚患起訴處分或有罪判決確定之日起5年內不得擔任居家式托育服務提供者"},{"start":31130.233,"end":31148.566,"text":"但是本法已經建立我們就是要建立說不適任人員的審議機制如涉及家庭暴力罪還有傷害致死家庭暴力罪的殺人家庭暴力罪的殺人未遂這種重罪他應該終身不得擔任托育相關人員及居家托育服務中心的工作人員"},{"start":31149.306,"end":31170.502,"text":"所以這個懲犯家庭暴力犯罪得否擔任這個托育專業人員工作人員或居家托育服務中心的工作人員要回歸到這個本法的認定機制來所以由地方主管機關審酌情節嚴重進行認定這樣子交給地方政府要去認定所以我們把這些講得比較具體一點"},{"start":31175.556,"end":31202.774,"text":"我們同仁 那委員我們這邊可不可以做一些文字的一個修正那那個同仁把他那個第五款把他列到第五款就是說懲犯家庭暴力罪鬥點經有罪判決確定且情節重大鬥點並經主管直轄市縣市主管機關認定有終身不得擔任托育相關人員或居家托育服務中心工作人員之必要"},{"start":31203.775,"end":31230.644,"text":"是不是有罪判就是委員的還起訴處分把他拿掉就是經有罪判決確定且情節重大情節有罪有罪確定有沒有可能會還起訴有罪確定他有可能會還起訴"},{"start":31243.045,"end":31252.428,"text":"那我們不要因為還起訴就看不到了看不到了他沒有進入司法單位但是相對輕微但是我們要不要把這個責任交給地方政府去判斷"},{"start":31253.823,"end":31266.076,"text":"因為他的情節輕微可能對檢察官來講是情節輕微就是我們在在討論那個什麼家暴防治的時候好像"},{"start":31269.011,"end":31284.287,"text":"大家有時候都會覺得說檢察官怎麼團起訴或檢察官怎麼沒有押因為家暴罪好像是三年以下我提了一個修法案把它變成五年以下"},{"start":31285.308,"end":31302.325,"text":"三年以下就相对很轻因为那是家暴罪的本身他就定的不重了三年以下都不叫什么罪除非他杀人了或是重伤害了他才会再用家暴罪再加上重伤害和杀人罪去处分"},{"start":31303.266,"end":31320.003,"text":"否則一般的家暴罪都是三年以下那這種狀況裡面精神上的嚴重的有可能一次以後下一次就很嚴重了所以我們要把這個責任交給地方主管機關去認定"},{"start":31322.839,"end":31350.477,"text":"現在可能要問法務部知道嗎就是我們地方政府不會知道緩起訴的加暴罪緩起訴的有多少人或者是誰因為我們沒有檢察官應該不會不會告訴我們所以沒有辦法查核這件事情那判決確定我們其實是可以從判決書上是可以做確定的緩起訴沒有辦法查詢嗎檢查系統要問一下法務部"},{"start":31355.376,"end":31373.89,"text":"通常還起訴處分檢察官還起訴處分還是只有通知當事人我說查詢的出來吧那個像警察機關就可以查某某人身份證號碼按下去就知道有沒有前科那這個警察機關司法警察查詢的會不會有還包含還起訴"},{"start":31375.471,"end":31396.806,"text":"這個是可以查可以查的資料一定是有他們的中間的聯繫通報是什麼樣的機制這個可能每個如果我們在這裡是特別法授權給他們可以查詢的話那他們就地方政府絕對可以查沒有問題地方政府的司法警連警察都可以查了怎麼可能地方政府會查不到呢他們你們自己的規定以前是規定五年"},{"start":31417.304,"end":31424.03,"text":"你要延長喔 你要一個人生喔5點半啊 我們開會通知不是到5點30沒有啦有啊 延長半個小時啊"},{"start":31439.401,"end":31466.102,"text":"我們的意思是說其實家庭暴力犯罪限制任職的這個應該要回歸到主管機關地方政府讓他們去認那時間要多長時間要追溯五年內還是說永久的還起訴的要五年內還是說要永久殺人判決確定的情節重大的就永久的"},{"start":31467.804,"end":31470.645,"text":"這個應該給地方政府去主管機關去認定吧因為家暴罪對自己最親的家人都會家暴了你說他合適嗎兒托的所有不管機構還是那個合適嗎還是保姆合適嗎"},{"start":31497.577,"end":31521.911,"text":"啊但是如果這個家暴家暴房子家庭暴力罪家庭暴力罪都是第二次給他機會了呢第一次是叫你這個不准靠近第二次你還違反了這個是給他國家給他第二次機會他都還犯老實說連還起訴都應該要限制了五至少五年不可以還起訴"},{"start":31523.342,"end":31541.864,"text":"家暴防治罪家暴罪他真的是國家給他兩次機會他去申請的那個叫什麼令保護令保護令了你還違反保護令保護令是給你一次機會你還違反他你是第二次犯法了"},{"start":31544.781,"end":31553.106,"text":"我們是要是說給我們沒有叫你一定要怎麼樣還起訴的應該給他們認定啦那情節重大有罪判決的是不是要永久不是啊叫他們不要擔任托育人員而已啊叫他不要來顧小孩啦你母親你就怕你兒子你就怕你說你可以顧別人的小孩很好耶對啊那現在他們就在猶豫啊我就不知道啊"},{"start":31575.185,"end":31595.149,"text":"因為大家漏了這麼多毒品的也要性交易的也要怎麼加報罪現在兩個戰促的問題第一個說適不適任這是第一個第二個是技術性問題技術性問題的話就像剛才講的保護你剛才講的我們保護系統這邊就是緩起訴的部分好像你現在說完全無法串接對不對可以啦"},{"start":31597.526,"end":31626.102,"text":"這又不是叫你們做這地方政府地方政府怎麼會沒辦法撤按揭他的社工的體系或者是說那個地方政府地方政府的警察局都可以查的到了你說地方政府會查不到這技術層次問一下問清楚再說好了我們先去了解一下好不好技術的問題我覺得是可以克服的因為法律授權的你就可以了所以我們在這裡把法律授權的工具給你"},{"start":31628.695,"end":31637.223,"text":"先回去再問一下好啦去想一下啦先保留好謝謝來好謝謝繼續審查第40條39對不起第39條院版的39條來請說明"},{"start":31650.629,"end":31665.161,"text":"好這一條就是第39條行政院版本39條那劉建國委員的建議是說是不是要將違反動物保護法納入消極資格"},{"start":31666.582,"end":31690.897,"text":"那我們行政部門的這個考量是說第一個我們在這個違反動物保護法的樣態可能也是很多元的那他是不是等同於就是虐待兒童這件事可能他也不易認定那第二個是在我們參考幼照法幼照法其實並沒有把違反動物保護法列為是一定年限的消極資格"},{"start":31693.55,"end":31710.705,"text":"那其他的部分我們大概就是因為前面條文有就是針對於居家托育服務中心的工作人員其實也是有要訂消息資格所以我們也把這個文字把居家托育服務中心的工作人員也在三十九條裡面再把它加上去好 各位有沒有其他意見來請立書委員"},{"start":31719.651,"end":31734.105,"text":"一樣的意見就是第一項裡面的居家托育服務中心的受委辦單位他不是由居府中心當主持是那第二個就是說我們要公佈行為人的姓名"},{"start":31735.046,"end":31762.792,"text":"那所以我們還有這個家庭犯有家庭暴力罪上面這個東西要地方政府主管機關認定有不得擔任托育服務中心的不得擔任托育相關人員或居服務中心的工作人員的必要的這個名字要公布他的設計應該是就是說有時候他在這個縣市他公布了以後他可能會搬遷到別的縣市"},{"start":31763.752,"end":31768.82,"text":"他可能就他就公告大家好查詢簡單來說是這樣子公佈姓名讓大家好查詢"},{"start":31777.941,"end":31803.654,"text":"那同樣的是家暴罪對 我們的所以我們有列入要公告行為人的這個姓名那至於犯家庭暴力罪我們可能要跟38條要可能我們也讓我們這個行政部門再想一下因為我們這邊我們本來是把它放在是就是限制他1到4年不得擔任脫離人員就是曾犯家庭暴力罪的這個然後他犯家庭暴力罪5年內"},{"start":31805.675,"end":31825.341,"text":"不得擔任 那剛剛前面的38條是講的是終身不得擔任 所以我們可能要所以前面那一條我們講的是情節重大的部分好 那這個還起訴的對 所以我們自己也寫了還起訴所以我們可能要再確認一下是不是可以查查資料"},{"start":31828.677,"end":31856.45,"text":"你們自己寫的公佈姓名你們也有啊但是就是說你們可能就加報罪直接五年不能擔任對啊你們也是五年不得擔任嗎好你們想一下對我們想一下因為如果我們前面也是有緩起訴這邊又是緩起訴五年內然後他是五年內不得擔任可是那邊是終身所以我們必須要再考量一下"},{"start":31858.567,"end":31873.514,"text":"好就給他考量給你們考量嘛你要考量把我那個一併放進去吧一併考量你不能講說之前相關的一些保護兒童權益的法律沒有把那個那個患有那個"},{"start":31875.138,"end":31896.599,"text":"都毛滑的 就不把它拉入我想現今國家基本上對虐待動物的基本上的人格特質都會有相當的在意而且輿論 只要你現在一條小狗的生命一條小貓的生命基本上只要有虐待的行為發生那會受到社會關注的程度是非常之大的"},{"start":31897.62,"end":31917.872,"text":"可能要有與時俱進的這種思維對 應該是要篩選出人格行為上不適任的那你可以虐殺動物那個人格和行為已經頗為不正常了 老實說那這樣的狀況也不適合再擔任這個專業的照顧員不是照顧員 這個居家不是 托育專業人員"},{"start":31926.176,"end":31941.171,"text":"那個跟主席還有那個委員請示一下不然我們就是說因為那個違反動保法有很多樣態可是我們特別集中在有關於虐殺這個行為好不好這樣就比較計較啦或者是他判刑哪一條判刑多久以上的這樣子好好好"},{"start":31943.264,"end":31970.158,"text":"好 我們再那個確認一下動保法那邊但是我知道委員最主要就是說從這裡面是不是有某些行為凸顯出因為野犯動保法很多種樣態有時候就是給他抓起來這樣對 你如果就是有一種他是專門在虐待小動物的他不一定要殺那個小動物他每天就捏他的屁股一直捏一直捏這種情緒控管也有問題啦"},{"start":31971.778,"end":31994.814,"text":"對啦 對啦 就是人口上出了問題不一定捏屁股啦對啦 捏鼻頭 捏什麼 捏耳朵你想像一下嘛 有人在你面前一直捏狗的鼻子還是耳朵 捏眼睛對啦 因為虐待動物的都有一點點毛病好我們一樣三十條保留啦"},{"start":31998.979,"end":32007.403,"text":"好 我們最後到五點半剩下還有一分鐘 要再繼續還怎樣你幾百多次了好 謝謝"},{"start":32012.783,"end":32032.499,"text":"來 現在做一下決議兒童托育服務法草案等29號身為審查完略另擇期繼續審查那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那本次會議到此結束星期三早上9點繼續開會現在休息謝謝大家 謝謝辛苦辛苦好 辛苦辛苦 謝謝好"},{"start":32036.241,"end":32054.73,"text":"我要去看醫生了"}]}},{"id":"166250","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166250","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b332ecad4078e2f26446ee6dd7c9e9cb525584be406089e2ad2ed63b081278be015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:14:40 - 10:24:35","影片長度":"00:09:55","會議時間":"2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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請陳部長請部長部長"},{"start":18.363,"end":44.145,"text":"農民是我們國家糧食安全跟農村永續的發展的基礎所以我們也擴大對農民生活上的保障也做了很多的努力包括挖農老農津貼還有現在我們正要修法的農民退休儲金的部分這就希望說他們有更多更好的保障也是鼓勵我們農民"},{"start":45.847,"end":70.743,"text":"大家都来从事我们农事工作但是这个农民的退休储金它这覆盖率也好大家投保的也比较少那这一部分也针对我们今天希望说如何来提高一些诱因鼓励大家来投这个农民的退休储金那刚刚听到部长你讲是六四来提拨是不是"},{"start":71.303,"end":84.364,"text":"是 我第一個跟委員說明現在的覆蓋率你這邊計算的可能有點錯誤因為48萬就業人口裡面有非常多的65歲以上不好意思喔 不是我錯誤是你們給我的資料是這樣子的"},{"start":85.475,"end":95.342,"text":"好 那沒問題 你說我們現在目前就是因為以老保來講85萬人然後65歲我們扣掉那現在覆蓋率是多少將近差不多50有到50因為實際65歲以下有真正的從事農業的部分大概是22萬"},{"start":106.977,"end":125.146,"text":"好 那如果付款率有這麼高的話我們也是非常高興我們還是要努力啦還是要努力啦還有努力的空間嘛對 特別是青農的部分比較低青年農民的部分比較低那為什麼青農會比較低你知道這個原因嗎因為青年農民本身他剛進入這個職場他的收入不穩定而且他有非常多的貸款"},{"start":125.706,"end":142.068,"text":"所以我們也做過問卷他們覺得說這樣的一個角對他們來講負擔比較大所以我們才會去設計就是說讓他負擔少一點政府負擔多一點在保障不變的情況之下去做這樣的設計這還有另外一個問題啦那很多人從本來是勞保的"},{"start":143.61,"end":165.504,"text":"中年轉型到了我們來農民做農業農務的工作所以他不希望浪費這個他們農保的這個年資能夠繼續的老保的那個年資所以他希望繼續有老保那所以老保的人要怎麼樣去參與我們的農民的這個退休處境這個方面有沒有辦法雙管齊下"},{"start":166.064,"end":194.466,"text":"我想我们在历史的跟青农座谈里面也发现到这一点就是说有一些他不愿意放弃他劳保资格因为他已经缴了一段时间了但是他又真正的实际从事农业的部分所以这个部分大概有4万多人所以我们也一直希望说在这个部分设计一个方案让这些参与劳保的人但是又有实际耕作的农民能够参加农民退休储金所以这个"},{"start":195.146,"end":222.404,"text":"部長都有了解所以可以讓他們一起參加其實也不是說他們沒有從事勞保工作勞工的工作他們有兩份工作嘛有些工作是一些工作是責任制的啦所以他可以從事兩項的工作所以可以給他們多一點鼓勵像我們的農民的退休儲蓄就是多一點鼓勵保障他們的生活這樣子的話他們會更多人來投入我們的農事工作好不好這個也要注意還有一點就是說"},{"start":223.565,"end":236.561,"text":"因為剛剛特別提到有老農年金老農年金的話他們一個月大概可以領八千一百一十塊錢那所以他很多人想說我就有這個部分了我就不需要再來投這個老農這個退休儲金了所以這一點的話我們要再怎麼樣去宣傳去鼓勵他們呢"},{"start":242.883,"end":271.478,"text":"這個就像LEGO在堆疊一樣我們最底層是農民退休儲金然後你如果那個老農津貼然後你如果說現在開始從事農業你有存一點錢的話退休的話所得更有保障這個部分我想我們會更努力的來做一個宣導所以提撥的他們可以領雙重更多他們才會願意未來可以領的更多比老農津貼還多就趕快把這個案子定案來我們稍微也在排這個案子希望能夠來做審查早日來那個草案修正通過好不好"},{"start":272.378,"end":273.96,"text":"那接下來本席要問的就是廚餘的問題"},{"start":276.998,"end":301.702,"text":"剛剛大家都有提到廚餘的問題那現在最重要廚餘的部分的話現在從2025年到2026年我們循序漸進先讓家戶的家庭的廚餘先來退場然後再事業的廚餘 是不是那剛剛有提到部長有提到說現在補助這個黑毛豬的部分2025年 今年的話一頭是3600元請問明年一頭是多少錢不是"},{"start":309.378,"end":326.149,"text":"轉型的時候我們由廚餘變成飼料的時候我們給他每一頭3600塊大概半年的飼料費另外我給他一些餵食系統因為飼料有另外的餵食系統從30萬到300萬根據他不同的規模因為我的資料裡面有看到說2026年如果說"},{"start":328.51,"end":352.764,"text":"他們在轉型當中 他們一投注之後補助1800塊是不是沒有 那個是明年的1月1號才來舉手說他要轉型的我們就希望說 因為明年1月1號開始你就要徵組嘛你要徵組才能夠高溫徵組對 那你如果說這個時候開始我們就希望說他在年底之前能夠說他願意轉型我們會給他輔導"},{"start":354.105,"end":361.412,"text":"那如果說最慢到明年的1月1號1月1號才決定 才決定的話現在已經12月幾號了到明年的1月1號 你的轉型時間太快了吧你就把3600塊變成1800塊 對"},{"start":369.264,"end":387.023,"text":"因為 不是部長這個時間太急迫性了沒有 因為1月1號開始他如果繼續用廚餘他就必須要符合增主設備三個條件所以在那個時間點他要嘛就是飼料 要嘛就是廚餘那要廚餘的話他也許可以到年底來申請"},{"start":387.723,"end":414.198,"text":"因為你們2027年就全面禁止廚餘對不對所以現在已經12月了到明年2026年不到一個月的時間我認為你們循序漸進裡面要多給他們一點緩衝的時間所以到明年本席的建議啦還是維持一頭豬是3600塊他們一樣是高溫會去徵足慢慢的循序退場因為這個廚餘部分在我們的家庭廚餘"},{"start":416.263,"end":443.04,"text":"這個大概一個月有1385公噸那置業廚餘的話大概760公噸那這個這樣加起來就2000多公噸你現在的廚餘的話你沒有這個能源化跟這個堆肥化你沒有這個設置的這個設備的話全部丟到焚化爐去焚燒你全部去焚化爐焚燒焚化爐能夠承受嗎這些等等都是問題所以"},{"start":444.841,"end":462.631,"text":"本席在這邊建議部長我們一定要完整的因應跟所有的配套我們要把這個所有的生殖中心或者是說我們的高速這個堆肥的這個處理中心通通都要把它建置好來才可以承受這個處理的部分好不好"},{"start":463.832,"end":483.171,"text":"我跟委員報告當初在設計就有階低式的補助最主要就是因為我們一年以後完全禁止了所以這些猶豫期不要太長你如果變成飼料的話我們盡量的去協助你猶豫期不到一個月對啊現在已經12月幾號了沒有所以我們階低式的1月1號明年1月1號以後是1800"},{"start":484.372,"end":508.361,"text":"所以現在我說你的1800太快速了是不是在做研議還有就是廚藝的部分因為主席站起來還有廚藝的部分家庭的廚藝的話是比較多的你可以請他們快點來處理這個清潔隊或者是收這個廚藝的部分能處理但事業廚藝我昨天在碰到餐廳事業廚藝裡面他們就有提到說"},{"start":509.301,"end":523.632,"text":"他們的廚藝現在是有人去跟他收買來運送但是未來的話他們的事業廚藝的話誰去幫他運送 誰去處理這些都增加這個費用啊環境部會負責找那個 以種的清潔業者去收"},{"start":529.717,"end":544.714,"text":"這個費用的話是清潔業者環境部補助清潔業者嗎未來是地方政府必須要負責的地方政府是負責的很多餐廳不知道這些也都必須要做宣傳所以整套的過程這個部分環境部他有"},{"start":545.174,"end":566.103,"text":"农业部一定能够循序渐进的包括就是厨艺的处理跟我们家庭跟我们的事业的厨艺都要看怎么去处理配套都要完整还有我们的设备也要到位来处理这些厨艺厨艺也可以变成我们的经济跟环境的这个循环的这个很重要的部分最重要的拜托"},{"start":567.182,"end":573.327,"text":"黑毛豬的養豬戶穩住他們的生計我們會成立一個輔導團隊不要讓台灣未來都沒有黑毛豬了會 我們會成立一個輔導團隊一起來努力讓這個產業積極的跟他們溝通好不好會好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝李玉玲委員質詢謝謝部長我們現在陳昌明委員質詢完我們休息五分鐘我們請謝一鋒委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"166201","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166201","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e238918248e277b3f2b4350fa5173e48b5dd3a7969bdec962703a5ba45612974d6c50673e5555f625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:04:51 - 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我們明訂徵列了第12條之一只要是經營新聞跟財經頻道或者直播新聞節目的頻道衛星廣播事業應該依照主管機關指定的這個方針在"},{"start":159.173,"end":181.759,"text":"每一年的6月30號以前將前一年度一些重要的這個資訊必須要公開在我們主管機關就是NCC所指定的網站跟該事業的這個網站上面讓全民可以共同來檢視公開透明裡面比較大家很關心的就是第六款明訂"},{"start":182.919,"end":200.183,"text":"你如果從政府機關或者公立學校或者公營事業或者其他監處成立的財團法人只要是取得的採購標案的內容你還有金額跟各項的這個補助的這個金額必須要"},{"start":202.273,"end":218.163,"text":"申報而且在網站上面讓大家可以共同來檢視另外呢第七款明定主要的廣告來源第八款也非常重要第八款就是因為之前啊我們法令明定電視台不能夠去經營有線電視"},{"start":221.125,"end":239.931,"text":"就是不能經營第四台可是之前發生了竟然有電視台去經營了有線電視而且它經過一層一層的整個逃避結果變成說連NCC的主委來這邊打醒都說這個依照現行的法規沒辦法去追究所以我們增訂了第八款"},{"start":240.751,"end":263.688,"text":"明確的規範以後只要是負責人董事或者監察人經紀人跟直接或間接持有已經發行有表決權股份你只要超過十分之一以上的股東的投資事業我覺得你不能在那邊躲就是一層一層例如說你本來去買的可能是超過五層可是你透過其他公司一層一層到後來說我只有"},{"start":265.749,"end":277.639,"text":"佔有的這個可能百分之五或者百分之十我們現在明確的增加的這個第八款你只要超十份超過百分之十就像以前引起過病的這家電視台"},{"start":279.525,"end":300.335,"text":"去投資了第四台他只要超過10%都必須明確的這個規範好 這個案子我們在一年多前就提出了非常謝謝今天終於有機會可以來討論也期待經過台灣民眾黨提出的改革三件讓我們的電視台可以公開透明在財務 在廣告"},{"start":302.156,"end":316.701,"text":"在採購案的公開透明讓我們的電視台回到正軌為我們整個國家社會的法治民生民主的發展有更大的貢獻也讓我們的電視台有更多更多的收入而不是只有靠政府的補助跟採購案 謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}