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堅守崗位"},{"start":169.779,"end":181.839,"text":"後端的我們所有的一些該要究責的程序跟機關也沒有跟上啊那平白的我就舉例那請問這些錢消耗的是誰的錢人民的錢"},{"start":184.929,"end":213.383,"text":"另外我也看到省暨部也揪出勞動部5年以來濫用就業安定基金7224萬包括許民春開演唱會謝怡龍辦公室裝潢都被省暨部認定是難以驗核履約結果林日公及導演團隊所拍的影片最後這些叫不服用途關聯性不高省暨部也都做了很多的監督但是我想請問"},{"start":215.164,"end":220.928,"text":"審計部 我也還是覺得很可惜啊即便審計部抓到這些東西 請問最後這些錢還是誰出這個財政部 那個勞動部還在逐項查明可能只有輸入 當然我已經通知他像現在法院在判 也會默入所得你要去申請還回那個就業安定基金我們也在 誰還"},{"start":241.923,"end":261.228,"text":"這個是默住所得本來繳入國庫嘛但是這是安置基金的錢安置基金是來自比較像一些輸能的人繳的那些這個要回到公益裡面去對 好 我覺得非常好起碼還因為審計部前面有做前端"},{"start":262.304,"end":282.402,"text":"不然後面這些可能都沒有嘛所以這是為什麼我跟人特別講就是說基本上我對於審計部過去的一些表現我覺得相對的是肯定的但是我們的後段政府單位我真的是覺得好像是前面努力把關後面努力放人"},{"start":283.342,"end":304.833,"text":"那之前你也看到那電鍋案嘛 對不對電鍋案也是啊 32元的電鍋被判刑可是超市雞蛋5億好像不用人負責一樣那更糟糕的是什麼南門中計市場案 沈局長你應該知道這個案子嘛知道 這個案子實際上是我最早最早質詢 也最早開記者會"},{"start":307.285,"end":331.876,"text":"他當時赤字1.8億用不到四年終極市場明明可以作為東門終極市場使用嘛結果當時就是蘇發布說要蓋辦公室他不讓台北市政府繼續租啊就把這1.8億的這個終極市場拆掉了拆掉以後 請問沈機長知道發生什麼事嗎您知道吧 對不對蘇發布跟大家講 沒有 我不蓋了 辦公室我不蓋了"},{"start":333.376,"end":357.943,"text":"我就問沈記長是不是赤裸裸浪費那1.8億公帑做公務員我是希望站在國家整體立場來看任何事情就可以見氣情見對啊 那我就講說光這件事情就看到說但我還是謝謝沈記部啦沈記部對速發部的所謂的一直在搞速發部變辦公室發展部的問題"},{"start":359.485,"end":384.642,"text":"就也說過速發部解決辦公空間不足要外租大樓又限定在台北市中正區然後租下火車站前的星光大樓到去年底總共18個月的租金就要將近7000萬而速發部說明裝修費用是3400萬所以要花1.4億實際上省紀部也認為台北新北早就生活圈嘛對不對"},{"start":385.723,"end":407.704,"text":"你沒有一定要陷在台北市中正區啊那我也不知道為什麼今天說真的還是一句話我也肯定省進部把問題點出來零零種種包括說我最近踢爆中油三接工程的那個福報的弊案福報金額牽涉到150億之多這些其實也都是人民的納稅錢啊"},{"start":410.639,"end":423.149,"text":"點點滴滴我是要勉勵我們審計部一定要做好把關最後我就要講但是呢今天我看到政務人員你不要怪這個本席看到這四個字心裡就會開了有點忐忑"},{"start":427.355,"end":454.436,"text":"其實民進黨執政這些年我先從監察院你省進部所屬的上級機關講起你光是監察委員政治辦案比比皆是然後再加上對於所謂民進黨高層像陳忠彥涉及新招待關說這些微私證據監察院也不敢彈劾陳忠彥中選會本來獨立機關表現是如何大家去看看完全沒有獨立機關的立場"},{"start":456.633,"end":483.239,"text":"NCC促轉會現在還有很多的各部會獨立機關都沒被放過那現在問題來了沈記長你們這一次我是很相信你啦但是你們這一次要把這副沈記長做政務任用我還是要請沈記長再多想想怎麼去平息社會各界的疑慮這一點的話其實有些委員有提出非常多的疑慮但我知道翁小英委員有提一個"},{"start":485.105,"end":505.641,"text":"有點像是折衷版啦就是說基本上針對這個所謂的增設的副審計長針對副審計長資格要做很多的一些更多的一些明定有所謂的常務官文官審計官的這些經驗那怎麼樣再做後續的進一步的修法不要讓這種所謂的政治酬庸的這張這個文化"},{"start":507.742,"end":517.619,"text":"也進到審計部 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那有請 欸 等一下 來 中央兵委員來主席 在場委員 先進列席總局幹事長 官員會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生先讓那個 沈記長 喘口氣我們請 權敘部的王司長和任總的廖專門委員好 權敘部法規司司長還有任總的專委 謝謝"},{"start":28.086,"end":53.258,"text":"好來請教一下我看全序部市長我看你們的意見第一你們對於政治政務副省級長你們是尊重嗎那你們對於所謂的這個檢任官二級單位主管的原額設置你們好像覺得比例上不符合我們相關的規定是不是相關是70%目前會變成150%"},{"start":55.639,"end":73.484,"text":"但是我看你们提到14条的部分你们认为这个所谓的相较于地方直辖市的一级机关首长那么中央的三级机关首长与他上属横平嘛所以列12到13之等你们觉得OK吗是"},{"start":74.224,"end":90.214,"text":"那所以你們看起來的意見只有一個地方是認為說不應該定在我們上級機關的組織法應該定在下級機關的組織規程嘛是那審議長都清楚了嘛所以應該不會有那麼大的一個情緒啦是不是"},{"start":91.135,"end":112.918,"text":"你們認為這樣是好那我們再確認一下因為我看到我們今天很難得我們看到考試院跟這個監察院的機關之間的意見不同但是我看也還好來我現在問問任總來任總專委請教一下我看你們的意見對於政治政務副審計長也沒有也尊重嗎"},{"start":113.986,"end":130.727,"text":"是委員那你們認為我們行政院有一個韓式對不對106年1月24號那認為監察院考證與行政組織相似也定有組織法所以呢你們認為呢可以參照這個基準法規的規定是不是這樣子"},{"start":132.349,"end":156.983,"text":"報告委員 原則上是省紀部這邊的修法他有說要參考基準法的規範那因為我們這邊是說如果是用準用的規範的話是要全部適用但是如果有特殊例外的話可以續明他的理由好 那特殊例外您特別提到中華民國憲法第104條 省紀長有總統提名這個跟其他的行政院的一級機關二級行政機關的時候很不同對不對"},{"start":158.044,"end":172.078,"text":"所以在行政院二級機關首長他底下所轄的這些三級機關跟省紀長他作為很特殊的跟行政院二級機關所不同的地方你認為可以特殊考量嗎看起來是這樣吧是 就看省紀部他的好 謝謝好 那我們請省紀長"},{"start":174.182,"end":179.824,"text":"兩位先回 沈記長這樣聽得清楚嗎 他們都沒反對啦沒反對喔你聽說他們你們這個沈記長是有總統提名由立法院同意來任命的比起行政院的二級機關的首長來講這個還不一樣喔 你還特別喔所以你底下的這些下級機關怎麼設置"},{"start":197.108,"end":221.528,"text":"是應該可以有另外的考量好 那我現在開始問本題了首先我們看第一頁來 還是從事我每次問審計長都要把審計部門講一遍你的職長呢是事後權 是監督預算的執行審核財務的收支還有要怎麼樣要去稽查不法跟不中於職務的行為要考核效能 要核定責任 對不對對所以這三個是你的重要責任嘛你常常提醒啦 所以我練之再之"},{"start":222.729,"end":240.719,"text":"是啦 是啦 你应该比我熟啦我们往下看来 你们这组执法第7条第10条第14条第1条呢第7条是讲说是副省进场二至三人目前我们的规定是一至三人嘛其中一人得列为常务嘛你们现在两人都是常务嘛所以可以征涉一个证物的嘛OK 好"},{"start":241.96,"end":247.387,"text":"那再來呢你們提到這個審計法第10條你們的審計官現在問題來了審計官你們希望擴增審計的人力那還有審計官要兼任地方的審計處長好 顯然的你要擴充人力你要讓你的審計官可以去地方擔任處長是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":260.728,"end":289.549,"text":"他本來就是損機關就是監地方處就監任但是我們看到其他機關的意見是說你幹嘛用監任你用專任的啊專任的夠不夠這是我損系的特性因為我的損系是要出去查賬要出去查賬好 那我請教一下他的特性好 來 沈議長你聽過三個臭皮匠勝過一個諸葛亮有沒有聽過有聽過嘛那如果是三個臭皮匠勝過一個諸葛亮那如果對上兩個諸葛亮你覺得哪邊比較贏"},{"start":290.806,"end":311.268,"text":"這個沒算過沒有算過 好 那你認為你跟副審計長誰是諸葛亮 誰是臭皮匠都扮演了相互的角色我是意思說如果是審計長是諸葛亮你有兩個副審計長現在你希望有多一個副審計長有三個臭皮匠就可以勝過你這個諸葛亮你同意嗎"},{"start":312.99,"end":339.527,"text":"應該同意他們都比我有經驗老到好 但是呢如果說你把你兩個副審計長都變成跟你一樣的是諸葛亮你還需要第三個臭皮匠嗎這是這樣啦 大家這是數學問題啦因為委員在其實啊 我就這個增加一個委員在財政委員會希望我加強監督地方我想出的方法之一"},{"start":339.787,"end":349.311,"text":"所以這個不是三個臭皮匠也不是兩個諸葛亮的問題是因為要有特殊業務的關係你第三個副審計長是要證物是要列為什麼數位審計對不對所以因為職長不同專長不同所以你希望就像說不能只靠兩個諸葛亮你還有什麼要照雲要有關羽有不同的專業負責是不是這樣的意思對好所以呢既不是諸葛亮也不是臭皮匠你要增加副審計長有照雲"},{"start":367.357,"end":393.073,"text":"這個奧子棚有關雲場的來協助好不好OK 好 我們下看來 那你擴增審計人力因為你認為政府收支上升業務複雜化還有跨越跟前瞻的審計所以根據目前我們要很嚴格 好像請教一下如果你地方的審計長說哎呀 不用增加那麼多人啦不用增加10個人審計長 你不用幫我增加10個人你只要增加5個人薪水通通給我我就幫你把事情幹好 你覺得有可能嗎"},{"start":394.52,"end":413.626,"text":"因為不可能 因為現在整個損盡事啊平均才十三個 十四個損盡人力所以是人力不夠 不是能力不夠對不對基本人力都不足會造成我確定一下 你認為是人力不夠不是能力不夠 也不是薪水不夠"},{"start":414.466,"end":429.443,"text":"好 那我問一下假如今天有立法委員說立法院組織法給我8到14個助理要花掉50萬一個月那你不用給我那麼多助理你50萬給我我就可以把事情搞定你覺得這樣符合你剛剛講的是人力的問題還是能力的問題還是薪水的問題你覺得勒"},{"start":434.068,"end":460.632,"text":"助理在立法案已經形成非常重要的一環是和立法案息息相關幫助立法委員幫助國家處理很多事情所以助理的東西我們還是要善待所以呢你認為是應該維持助理8到14名的編制這樣的人力而不是說把他的錢交給立委統籌運用就可以達到同樣的立法效能是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":461.152,"end":464.714,"text":"要做一個訴求 要順書所立不能說處理了這個事情造成發生了另外一個問題所以我們這樣的話反而會這個對整個功能或怎麼樣要去考慮評評非常重要那又有委員的修法要把這個改成補助兩個字補助補助在我們審計當中它的會計屬性是什麼"},{"start":488.784,"end":502.131,"text":"補助就是說 這個是多少給予補助要不要審計 要不要做平均核銷 簡均核銷任何國家的財動 國家的資源 我們都審計"},{"start":506.073,"end":525.626,"text":"來 我要看主計處 主計總處 黃政委員是不是所有政府的補助款 這個科目下的補助款都要列入檢據核銷 是不是是 好 可以 謝謝 來 我們看一下 來 陳議長你看一下目前的修法是說通通這些50萬一個月的助理費用交給立委統籌運用免檢據核銷這個符合我們主計跟審計相關的規定嗎"},{"start":530.1,"end":547.528,"text":"免檢劇核銷但是他的錢到哪裡我們還是會注意我們在實際的立場還會注意你說法律規定免檢劇核銷你們還可以查到他的用途你們這麼厲害那既然這麼厲害通通不用檢劇核銷你們用心電感應就知道這個錢有沒有花去了是不是這樣嗎"},{"start":548.288,"end":573.803,"text":"因為有免檢劇核銷啊有這樣的話我們會尊重立法立法院如果寫免檢劇核銷你們也尊重但是你們要用心電感應去了解委員有沒有自肥是不是因為我會用數位審計你會用數位審計所以你要告訴陳毅任委員如果委員要自肥你就算法律訂了免檢劇核銷我審計長還是有辦法用透過我的數位查到你的錢流到哪裡去是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":574.845,"end":591.467,"text":"這個免檢劇核銷可能要慎重要慎重好來最後的結論對於未來如果立法有提到補助款用免於檢劇核銷的幽靈補助如何進行有效審計你說你很厲害你有數位審計三個月內給我提出一個報告告訴我你怎麼做好不好"},{"start":592.719,"end":619.355,"text":"可以嗎因為啊 還沒有成為事實我們都不用成為事實啊我只要本院有可能立一個法補助款免減去核銷就已經寫在新聞上面了你要趕快提早因應啊能夠雙贏好 雙贏 那你提早因應 萬一過了你三個月也到了 報告就寫出來了我們就可以告訴立法院說立法院委員陳玉珍 你不用先你做得到嗎 三個月提出一個報告能夠讓他放心 因為"},{"start":619.915,"end":625.341,"text":"好啦 那我就問問嘛你有效審計監督你做得到嗎 三個月 提個報告給我們好不好好 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謝謝主席有請文化部理院部長以及公廣集團的各位代表好 有請部長跟公廣集團代表"},{"start":42.572,"end":71.087,"text":"各位你好部長早最近有幸看了幾篇關於部長的採訪報導得知您的父親和母親其實是從對岸來到台灣共處家庭也就是所謂俗稱的外省第二代從報導當中可以得知部長其實不利於和讀者分享家庭生活的點點滴滴部長先前的創作也有許多源自於日常生活的累積部長可不可以簡單說明一下您的父親是從大陸的哪裡來到台灣的呢"},{"start":72.165,"end":87.077,"text":"我爸爸是在民國34年從福建來到台灣所以我們可以說部長的祖籍是福建我父母親算是中國人所以就是我想部長我們都可以理解到其實每一個人的文化素養"},{"start":88.178,"end":109.35,"text":"除了後天的累積其實更直接的來到了原生家庭經驗的影響我們台灣的文化之所以豐富正是因為我們擁有這塊土地原生的以及來自四面八方的文化匯集本席身為宅宅的一份子經常在網路上海巡也作為網路海巡署的一份子"},{"start":109.99,"end":115.792,"text":"因此也就各位網友所關心的議題想要來救教部長近期第59屆的金鐘獎剛剛舉行過頒獎典禮有部分的網友在網路上討論有些藝人因為談論到主集或者他們的相關的事項被貼上了金鐘的標籤網友認為公廣集團不應該再與這些藝人進行合作"},{"start":136.118,"end":152.899,"text":"包含戲劇的邀約上節目甚至是活動代言等等文化部對於所謂親中藝人的定義有沒有一套明確的標準我們政府有沒有一條隱形的紅線這條紅線到底怎麼畫的又畫在哪裡那我想今天與會的"},{"start":153.9,"end":177.587,"text":"有隸屬於公廣集團的公共電視華視客家電視台還有台灣plus那想請問一下實務上藝人的政治立場特別是對於兩岸政治的態度是不是會影響到櫃台和他們合作的意願或者會不會擔心未來與這些藝人合作的作品會受到網友抵制可不可以請客台代表簡要回答會不會"},{"start":184.11,"end":210.49,"text":"其实以公司来讲我们没有特殊的考量所以我们公司来讲没有特殊的考量就是不会嘛好来那个其他代表很快的快速发表这没什么吧这是我们言论自由的自由的国土啊会不会中华民国籍我们中央社不会有什么歧视的问题对嘛没有问题嘛好来那个其他的代表有没有"},{"start":211.772,"end":238.561,"text":"包委員客家電視台沒有沒有嘛來包委員complus跟公廣一樣沒有好謝謝部長所以今天我們可以確定藝人和公廣集團合作無需經過政治審查也不必要求必然要做政治正確對嗎其實親中本身是一個假議題其實我們政府有兩岸人民條例我們本身對藝人不會有任何"},{"start":239.673,"end":255.744,"text":"我們甚至於打開雙手歡迎藝人在台灣發展我們所有對藝人的態度都根據兩岸人民條例他有沒有觸犯到兩岸人民條例的那個限制所以還是有一條線哪一條線啊部長講清楚啊"},{"start":256.364,"end":270.676,"text":"比如說你在我們上次不是講過嗎陸委會已經對外講有一個紅線就是如果你在大陸中國大陸發展我們歡迎你去但是你不能夠在那邊發表一些跟中國背後有目的的發表一些"},{"start":272.458,"end":292.518,"text":"這個東西你已經直接傷害到台灣的主權嘛部長 read my face我現在的臉非常的驚訝剛剛公廣集團的代表都來跟我們說不會 不會受到影響結果您現在在這裡幫忙陸委會在澄清他們的紅線你是文化部代表還是陸委會代表啊"},{"start":293.118,"end":312.425,"text":"所以有紅線啦我本來下一句要說太好了 部長可不可以簡短的向網友呼籲我們不會要求藝人有什麼政治正確也不會有政治審查剛剛公廣的代表跟我部長的立場是一致的結果你竟然在這裡重申陸委會的立場說有一條紅線啦部長我再給你一個機會喔"},{"start":315.717,"end":336.849,"text":"其實我覺得台灣非常民主自由可是在目前這個情況下台灣的民主自由不能被利用譬如說一再的背後如果有一個集團要我們台灣去的藝人發表對台灣不利的言論而且那個不利的言論已經到了傷害大家情感譬如說武統台灣可不可以"},{"start":337.989,"end":365.985,"text":"請問部長您剛剛這樣的說法完全就隱含一個陰謀論現在有哪一個藝人有明確被證明了背後有什麼集團的誰說出來啊目前我們當然經過一個調查我們經過一個調查結果沒有明確的所以我們沒有對任何藝人提出懲處啊那是怎麼樣那不確定的狀態是怎麼樣文化部要來調查所以你們有去調查"},{"start":367.206,"end":387.031,"text":"哇 文化部現在又變成不只是陸委會代表還是警總代表啦還要來調查他背後有沒有什麼集團那我現在在這裡背後 我有沒有什麼集團我們不是一個言論自由的社會現在文化部要來看你講的話背後有沒有什麼集團部長"},{"start":390.256,"end":404.746,"text":"我們今天還有很多重要的議題要討論那我希望是不是能夠再次的回到您剛剛講的這四個字言論自由不要用這種隱形的紅線這種背後集團的推估"},{"start":405.606,"end":431.338,"text":"造成社會隱形的壓力啦 網友很擔心好不好 所以這一點 希望部長可以回去 這個您可以觀看一下您今天的這個回應 也許有一些我們還可以交流的地方我再跟部長請教 這樣好嗎 好不好這個部分 希望我們還是要保持著整個社會不要有這種無形的壓力不要有這種無形的懷疑啦我想部長你從那樣的年代走過來"},{"start":433.219,"end":445.075,"text":"懷疑你講的話背後有集團這個說法我想我們沒有人會認同好不好這個接下來我們還有很重要的意見可以嗎我們未來持續交流啦可以嗎 部長"},{"start":445.922,"end":472.628,"text":"可以 我願意跟你交流謝謝我想接下來本席長期以來所關心的AI科技議題從9月1號開始其實有越來越多的發展台灣公共媒體宣布要聯手開發可信資訊的AI chatbot這個計畫是以建立信賴AI目標預算是新台幣1200萬元與我們非常景仰非常棒的中研院團隊合作預計在2026年底完成"},{"start":473.368,"end":493.764,"text":"本席非常樂見公共媒體開始認知到AI的重要性願意踏出這樣的一個計畫第一步那相信行政院喊出的步步有AI不是步步蹭AI但是也不要忘記其實我們的國科會已經主導了一段時間的AI對話引擎CHEPA的引擎叫做台德"},{"start":495.16,"end":510.618,"text":"從民國112年起就開始了投入了3.1億以上的經費請問部長在公共媒體展開AI缺乏計畫之前有沒有跟國科會台德研發團隊洽談過公共媒體的需求我是不是請聊一下"},{"start":512.149,"end":533.828,"text":"有没有跟国科会台德团队研发谈过台德团队在进行研发的时候他们需要的资料库我们公广集团就已经提供我们对他们之间对我现在讲的是缺霸计划谢谢有没有跟他们我们缺霸计划有跟速发部跟国科会那边都有进行讨论而且我们两个方面是不一样的"},{"start":533.848,"end":560.291,"text":"沒關係我們做的是一個新聞的部分的AI聊天機器人並不是像台德它是一個通用型的所以這兩個東西目的也不太一樣對話機器人收集了足夠的資料就變成有目的型的機器人沒有關係這一點我們想要講的就是我們得到的訊息是你們並沒有跟國科會針對這個一千兩百萬的計畫來討論但是沒有關係但我們想要講的是我們小小多山"},{"start":560.931,"end":580.732,"text":"资源发展要集中而最重要的就是资料资料就是黄金如果我们能够把这些黄金呢能够大家利用的话其实可以让我们的台湾的主权我们的文化可以在AI的时代更加的发扬光大那我想请教一下这一次啊"},{"start":583.193,"end":605.624,"text":"這個開發參與的單位有包含公廣集團的公視、客家台、台語台、華視、中央社、中央廣播電台、原民台的各位代表以上所唸到的單位有將資料提供給台德訓練使用的可不可以舉個手那資料是有償提供的也就是有向台德收費的請將手放下"},{"start":606.826,"end":633.089,"text":"然後無償提供的舉起手這一點我們也非常感謝事實上早期和公共電視有接觸確實公共電視有提供少量的資料無償使用但是其他的媒體我想部長您也都看到了都沒有提供你們有滿地的黃金這個資料資源其實文化部同樣隸屬於跟國會隸屬於行政院但是其實資料沒有跨部會的流通是非常可惜的"},{"start":633.749,"end":650.525,"text":"之前呢這個113年度啊這個台德的計畫資料收集的預算只有700萬結果光是和中央社一家購買就花了648萬而且還有時間的期限這一點呢我們是希望可以通盤的調整"},{"start":651.986,"end":667.76,"text":"不是說就沒有錢不是這個意思而是說這一次一千兩百萬的計畫可以做但是能不能在做的同時能夠同時去討論去開放提供做這個AI chatbot的資料"},{"start":668.32,"end":684.071,"text":"能夠做一個更有可讀性的資料開放的平台裡面有文稿有字幕這個能不能開放這些資料也讓外部來做一些運用跟研發這個部分能不能部長跟這個公安集團研議一下"},{"start":688.058,"end":715.689,"text":"可以部長有點頭了謝謝這一點我還要再重申一次開放不代表就沒有錢因為我也曾經跟胡婉玲胡社長有談過資料真的有價值資料有價值但是我要替台德和其他的AI請命根據歐盟的開放資料暨公佈門資訊再利用指令第6條有提到政府資料的收費英才編記成本原則"},{"start":716.849,"end":740.218,"text":"也就是說除了提供複製散布的邊際成本以外不要額外去收取費用就是說你的基本成本否則政府會形成資料壟斷跟抑制市場創新所以這一點我要拜託部長部長您可不可以請回到原始的位置謝謝因為這一點需要您的承諾文化部能不能幫忙我們研議去採取我們剛剛所提到的"},{"start":741.039,"end":759.555,"text":"編輯成本原則最小化原則重新檢討我們的公共媒體提供資料的收費標準以利我國的AI科技持續發展創新全球的AI都能夠來了解台灣的文化這一點部長能不能主導研議一下三個月內"},{"start":760.356,"end":786.705,"text":"提出演繹的報告 這一點我想後面的同仁代表都非常開心啦那這一點 我覺得希望您來協助努力最後 這個主席不好意思 我們真的太重要了因為剛剛這個部長的反應讓我們花了一些時間我們未來會有更多交流 我快速部長請看這張投影片左到右 教父 射雕英雄傳 何日君再來您作為一位文化人能不能猜到這三件作品的共通點是什麼"},{"start":788.1,"end":811.059,"text":"都是非常暢銷啊非常暢銷沒錯但是他們都是當時被政府說查禁的作品啊所以事實上啊我們發現啊現在要鎖小紅書結果小紅書的下載量馬上衝到第一啊部長你能不能以文化人的立場啊向政府去建議啊封堵不是防止文化傳播的方法"},{"start":811.599,"end":830.024,"text":"政府應該要重新評估一下封鎖小紅書的政策不然他下載持續在衝高啊部長您的觀點是什麼可不可以鼓勵一下小紅書會被停的原因跟這個思想沒有關係吧是跟他他不回答我們跟他提的問題譬如說打炸的問題吧"},{"start":831.164,"end":844.839,"text":"跟思想沒有關係沒關係 這個訊息我提供給你台灣一天的被詐騙金額是四億小紅書平台兩年是兩億這個我們未來有機會再交流但是這一點我最後一個部分文化政策是部長的專業"},{"start":848.323,"end":876.497,"text":"其實啊這個一昧去禁止這種兩岸資料的這種資訊的傳遞跟擔憂其實是沒有意義的啦那您有沒有什麼反向文化滲透的作戰計畫我現在拿手上這本書啊是李敖先生《雖千萬人李敖往矣》這是他當年啊在微博上面大殺四方用140個字幾千篇的文章獲得千萬粉絲這就是一個最好的逆滲透的做法"},{"start":876.977,"end":904.575,"text":"我想問一下部長有沒有什麼我們文化逆滲透的作戰計畫我想問一下委員你的意思是不是說用中華民國統一統一中國還是三民主義統一中國我們的文化的美麗的部分不要講了講了都到統獨去了我們那麼多創作者有什麼統不統獨不獨這三部哪一個是統獨了嗎沒有嘛不是不是我一直覺得我們講在這個這個輕鬆的題目"},{"start":905.916,"end":923.237,"text":"不是我們一定要講這些議題我們才能讓對岸感動嗎我們匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬也不是統獨議題對岸也很感動啊為什麼一講到文化逆滲透就是統就是獨呢部長"},{"start":926.417,"end":943.582,"text":"不是嗎不是嗎你聽我講我一直覺得台灣的文化比中國的文化高對嘛 很美麗嘛你同不同意要有作戰計畫啊我當然同意我們當然是我當然同意 為什麼當然是把台灣的文化走進全世界泳之聲多美麗"},{"start":944.895,"end":969.883,"text":"永之聲多美麗是不是 部長所以 部長部長我對不起 朴主席我這個書在中國大陸被盜版了這本書啊在小紅書上面有很多您的粉絲啊他還寫分析評論啊這是您的作品感動到海的另外一端啊我們其實可以文化的逆向反向的滲透啊"},{"start":971.464,"end":994.603,"text":"這種風境講到這個兩岸的文化交流就是統就是獨我想沒有這樣的意思啦好不好所以部長我們能不能台灣的文化輸出作為文化輸出大國有沒有百分百的信心當然有啊那謝謝部長這一點我對主席很抱歉啦因為今天議題太重要了因為我要感受到部長的信心不要只感受到部長內心"},{"start":996.604,"end":1006.63,"text":"傳達其他部會的紅線這樣就太可惜了無論是實體或虛擬世界我們一起為台灣成為文化輸出的大國一起努力 這樣可以嗎可以 謝謝謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝葛如君委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"166278","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166278","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0b9fc08d9f3631bca9ecb9f93c172c55144a569ea12001d97884be6fd1f80153f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:10:57 - 10:23:47","影片長度":"00:12:50","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「財政收支劃分法」7案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員郭國文等17人、委員賴瑞隆等19人、委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n(二)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等26人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例」2案：（僅詢答）\n(一)本院委員郭國文等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n 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地增值稅房屋稅他的收入都比"},{"start":483.294,"end":488.698,"text":"農業憲分來得高農業憲分對國家糧食安全的貢獻是不容抹煞的因此在我們院版的財化法裡面我們對農林榆木的就業人口農林榆木的產值我們都給予配的全數讓他可以在這部分獲得一定的回饋我想這個部分是非常重要尤其高齡人口已經誘而必須要政府更多的照顧"},{"start":506.69,"end":532.105,"text":"那我们也对于65岁以上的人口以及14岁以下的孩子们我们对他的人口用1.2倍来计算这样才能够真正呈现政府的一个施政支出那这些地方政府这些的支出都会在我们中央统筹分配税款里面给考量进去让我就刚刚说国民的生活品质才能够更均衡而不是只有生活在城市的人获得保障"},{"start":533.146,"end":554.48,"text":"在很多委員的版本裡頭也看到了他們把農業跟老人人口都那個增加都總計都已經就是說到65%以上了所以就是說顯然他們看到了這個就是現板現板的公司變成就是說重商輕農然後輕工那地方業偏遠的就是"},{"start":555.748,"end":573.059,"text":"地方越偏遠的一個相相那個就是等於是地方越偏遠的縣市他負擔的越重反而在分配分配中被壓的更低了這個是非常非常的不合理尤其是農業縣市的負擔被稀釋的這個錢中不足的問題真的沒有辦法正面的反映這個土地的正義所以就是我們在這裡特別跟你再一次的一個提到了所以就是說"},{"start":585.267,"end":601.544,"text":"還是一樣就是反應夠不夠如果不夠的話就是說行政驗版我們看到的是你們是願意提高這個權重的我們看到的是這樣的一個事實謝謝委員的深入研究我覺得您分析得很清楚"},{"start":603.005,"end":627.546,"text":"這很慘啦這是對我們這個台南來講實在是真的很慘所以說部長是不是可以提供驗版的那個補助款的試算的一個金額就是說驗版的財務法條整以後中央跟地方三大的補助款的一個具體的金額還有水平分配所有錢重的調整後每一個地方的試算的結果還有財源保障機制對地方政府實際財務的一個影響把這一個"},{"start":630.769,"end":644.586,"text":"真實的一個狀況然後就是送到本席的辦公室跟委員報告我們很重要就是要建立一個可長可久的制度我們應該把制度把它討論更完善是的制度討論更完善制度討論更完善現在就是"},{"start":649.389,"end":666.355,"text":"好 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來 邀請沈記長 謝謝"},{"start":16.596,"end":19.717,"text":"謝謝主席 以及各位先進 沈記長喔你今天這個重點就是要要一年政務官的副沈記長啦對啦就是這樣嘛 對啦 最主要是這年嘛 還有其他呢都要啦 都要啦 其他有什麼有三條 有三條 我今天喔 我也很想"},{"start":38.786,"end":42.549,"text":"我這樣喔 那個都危困欸 那個很認真欸我也很覺得你這樣在北省台這麼生氣喔因為啊 長年啦 義門啦義門 義族啦被全市部欺負啦 對不對人養不到 族長養不到被人種欺負啦 就是這樣這一個單位其實可以幫國家做一點事的單位是"},{"start":65.204,"end":75.618,"text":"幫國家做事就一定要給一個人來啦 一條一條講你可以基層增加 審計人員 職等提高這我沒意見我最有意見是是你的副審計長"},{"start":79.423,"end":87.391,"text":"你要把它政治任命這個我很有意見這個就是道地的量身定做聽說你的人都找好了沒有啦都找好了都找好了 心裡在肚子裡想要賭一個最最最就那個了這人是要栽培"},{"start":102.128,"end":123.246,"text":"很多的事情都要栽培 上次你問我為什麼那個你問我說你怎麼細潤怎麼會那個我說我差不多半年前就相關的人員講說我要結甲歸田那結甲是沒有 都是說解掉這個植物 我要回到去種田"},{"start":125.363,"end":151.73,"text":"但是 最後啊 我要培育我的人產我們也給你擠一擠啊 但是 但是來 我問你 我問你 我問你 重點在這裡齁增加一個 如果 如果啦 IF啦 IF啦齁 同意你呢 但是我們要改成這是常務官 實質職等 不可以正務官 你看我什麼樣的我是這樣啦齁"},{"start":154.09,"end":173.4,"text":"證物是剛剛大家都叫我叫機關基準法機關基準法兩個證物一個常務所以我說就一個證物吧兩個常務這是我的特性專業獨立但是增加一個證物官大家有所懷疑"},{"start":174.411,"end":176.715,"text":"當然懷疑啊這個東西就是民進黨的手伸進來啦他們已經有人要這個位置啊所以如果可以的話可以的話強化"},{"start":189.833,"end":216.241,"text":"那個互損機長的專利 獨立為什麼要政務官啊 你沒有回答我問題啊為什麼要政務官 常務官你都可以啊常務官你可以啊 為什麼要政務官 修就是對的啊大家有的人都 剛剛我就是這樣講啊大家都有的要叫我叫這樣 有的要叫我那樣我都竹竹通竹 十三竹等 他就要要我竹竹竹等用行政命令啊咧你現在 聚統要講問你這個問題 你不要回答其他的啦"},{"start":221.324,"end":231.893,"text":"請問你的副省機場幾次等14次等 14次等啊我們就加一個14次等的常務文官給你我是這樣啦 剛剛那個獨立專業沒辦法解決我同意你的意思"},{"start":234.956,"end":250.498,"text":"對嘛因為什麼意思我聽不懂你再說一次如果那個證物我能夠把它任用諸葛的條件加到能夠專業獨立盡量大家所有的部位都有證物啊"},{"start":250.959,"end":257.161,"text":"要怎麼樣去獨立嘛你只要政治任命就不會有獨立啦這個東西 執政黨三個人進國進來所以你心目中是什麼條件"},{"start":269.264,"end":284.334,"text":"加上他承認什麼 承認什麼承認什麼 你講嘛 承認什麼承認副審計長五年 或者審計官八年 九年 我都同意所以你心目中 心目中 心目中人選已經有了嘛要做這個 要那個 這個那個都有了那個人就在燈火闌珊處在那 他們在那對不對 就是這樣"},{"start":295.121,"end":323.26,"text":"負責任的 這一個人啊 要負責任你要替國家栽培人才啊你說啊 這個我都不會你看我已經七老八十了 還要在這裡做還在這裡生氣還今天這麼生氣 看到你這麼生氣看到我來這裡講大家都電話通好了來這裡寫成這樣要人沒人 要主等沒主等所以你今天來這裡很重要的我要國家做一點事也不可以"},{"start":325.061,"end":331.165,"text":"你簡單來講 你對全市部長很不爽你對人事長很不爽 信不信但是還是不爽還是不爽他電話給你說OK來這裡書面資料就不OK啊"},{"start":344.734,"end":349.417,"text":"我感覺他對我還蠻友善的因為大家都說他不友善我後來回頭一看好像不友善齊一族我感覺他是友善的他電話跟你很友善啦這個人情手牽手背後下毒手啦不會啦不會啦不會啦不會啦"},{"start":368.77,"end":372.754,"text":"他為了國家的體系你還是沒有回答問題假如我們審查會說好你講了很多理由通通買單但是常任不可以證物"},{"start":385.682,"end":406.217,"text":"最後的底線啦最後底線啦齁 我跟你講 這樣才有通啦你用政務的 不通啦因為這個政府你可以看喔 我們的外交體系也可以很多的 應該是文官變成政務官啊 命啊 把啦 都變政務官這東西就變政治任命 不好啦"},{"start":408.379,"end":431.138,"text":"就獨立性就不好啦 這個就這樣啦 這個我都同意啦有時候你才看不夠 剛剛那個吳委員在這裡喔 本來在講檢察官一千多人 通通可以升到14組等所以你今天火氣很大咧很大 因為這個沒公平的事 我一向都很大所以今天他很不爽表面上"},{"start":433.433,"end":437.176,"text":"來來來 最後一個問題 小問題來來來 我要問你喔1.5兆的特別預算啦 裁員他寫稅基剩餘加舉債喔如果現在沒有稅基剩餘了 幾乎都舉債每一個人5.43億喔 那麼現在政府一直說草法法通過要舉債2000億 你現在還舉債1兆2000億你要不要講一下 財政紀律講一下"},{"start":462.33,"end":484.804,"text":"現在這幾年控制得很好都差不多5兆多啦 你寫出來都5兆多整個都壓在6 5兆9千多萬所以這幾年的財政是你現在真的一定要5兆喔稅收還不錯經濟那個科技方面稅收還不錯所以1.25兆我知道行政院他是分8年8年除1.25乘以8年的話差不多1.15百多億啦但是這個"},{"start":490.928,"end":506.745,"text":"行政院的條例還有這個1.25兆的這個這些的編註啊我這次預算編註前是在行政院啊 審議前在立法院我們尊重 我們都審核我們一定照立法院審議的結果來審議好 謝謝賴市保委員"}]}},{"id":"166276","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166276","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c09ae78c0f3af4c388ff56a78bd28eb12244a569ea12001d977c441aaa3034334b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:02:51 - 10:14:32","影片長度":"00:11:41","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T10:02:51+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T10:14:32+08:00","duration":701,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.58284375,"end":8.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.24846875,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.26096875,"end":45.509093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.59346875,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.610343750000006,"end":49.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.609718750000006,"end":49.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.67721875,"end":49.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.76159375,"end":56.798468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.63034375,"end":53.119718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.937843750000006,"end":56.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.84909375,"end":62.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.45221875,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.844093750000006,"end":62.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.721593750000004,"end":64.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.46409375,"end":63.953468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.07159375,"end":75.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.36596875000001,"end":70.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.41159375000001,"end":109.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.09846875000001,"end":81.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.16096875000001,"end":86.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.90096875,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.48659375000001,"end":110.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.95471875000001,"end":115.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.10221875,"end":112.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.48971875000001,"end":128.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.56096875,"end":118.99971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.60284375,"end":120.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.64784375000002,"end":129.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.66471875000002,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.74909375000001,"end":132.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.24659375000002,"end":132.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.29721875,"end":132.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.36471875,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.45721875,"end":139.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.68034375000002,"end":144.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.91596875000002,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.93221875,"end":146.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.02909375000002,"end":179.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.31159375000001,"end":149.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.81721875000002,"end":181.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.31471875000003,"end":188.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.77784375000002,"end":189.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.21221875,"end":200.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.72534375,"end":214.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.64346875,"end":211.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.56721875000002,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.68034375000002,"end":219.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.38471875000002,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.61659375000002,"end":222.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.11409375000002,"end":269.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.10534375,"end":227.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.49096875000004,"end":279.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.71721875000003,"end":280.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.06721875,"end":287.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.30721875,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.09159375,"end":348.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.67346875000004,"end":290.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.02284375000005,"end":375.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.63846875,"end":354.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.35284375000003,"end":370.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.17534375,"end":372.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.69409375000004,"end":411.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.34721875,"end":379.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.04721875,"end":382.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.41846875000005,"end":382.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","s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我們有請部長部長歐元早"},{"start":13.465,"end":35.98,"text":"部長早我想今天是這個生權法的修法在進入這個主題之前我前面先問你一個也是社會現在很關注的就是兒家屬喔你的修法進度然後你裡面你到底你的編制喔你有沒有把因為你之前承諾說從胚胎開始照顧嘛現在大家最擔心的就是像孕產婦的這個照護還有幼兒專責醫師還有死因回溯機制等這個都跟兒童的健康息息相關你會不會把它"},{"start":43.385,"end":56.414,"text":"移到這個兒家屬裡面好跟委員說明我們現在已經把這個組織法的修正那個草案已經送到院裡面那麼應該很快的會在下個禮拜嗎決定應該會下禮拜可以送到立法院"},{"start":64.179,"end":67.722,"text":"那我剛剛講的你現在的組織規模剛剛講的跟孕產婦的照護啊幼兒專者醫師啊死因回溯機制等等跟健康有關的你有沒有要放進來"},{"start":76.119,"end":102.661,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在初步提的是在最上位的組織法然後接下來它的業務上會持續的討論如何做調整或者是有些要新增那麼剛剛提到像死因回作這是屬於在兒童的健康政策規劃當中非常重要的基本功所以一定會在這裡面去做統計分析這個是一定會含納在這個兒家屬"},{"start":104.562,"end":128.381,"text":"那麼孕產戶我們也一直還要跟專業團體也要討論因為你說從胚胎開始是是是好不好我們會來看看怎麼樣的分工會是最好我希望這一個有關於健康的部分也應該要納入這樣才有劃時代的意義那另外一個我希望明年4月4號兒童節可以順利揭牌部長沒有信心你是很有效率的部長沒有信心兒童節禮物啊好不好一起努力"},{"start":134.805,"end":151.388,"text":"掐指算來的話不到五個月的時間要很努力啊所以下個禮拜請行政院趕快通過送進來立法院那反正我們開會開到1月底嘛立法院要審查通過我們才有辦法去開始我們就加速審查好不好我們共同努力接下來今天的重點"},{"start":152.449,"end":178.886,"text":"我想這個我們上次12月3號看到很多的身障團體還夜宿在行政院真的非常的不忍心我覺得他們真的是非常的辛苦而他們的辛苦也換來了今天我們委員會排案要審這個身障法相關的修法那第一個我要問的是那行政院一樣行政院目前衛福部完全沒有版本你們的版本什麼時候送進來這個"},{"start":182.352,"end":187.93,"text":"我們是打算在這個月底或者是下個月初就會送到大園"},{"start":188.854,"end":213.861,"text":"一定要月底喔一定要月底因為其實現在很多的身障團體同時線上收看他們現在最焦慮的是今天我們啟動了我們尋答然後我們今天會宣讀條文待會可能要請教召委喔那我們要進主條嗎他們其實已經等不及了希望快所以部長我只能說你這邊沒有什麼時間齁就是在拖延麻煩你跟行政院"},{"start":214.881,"end":243.809,"text":"我们是因为上个礼拜跟团体对话之后那我们回去再检视所以又再修了一下所以应该我们跟这个院里面我希望你加快就是月底赶快送进来然后第一个我要问你们的问题就是个人助理的部分这是这一次身障团体他们反应最多的现行的状况他们平均每一天使用到的时数就是不到一个小时真的是太少了而且各县市的情况不一"},{"start":244.449,"end":266.528,"text":"然後他們要申請通常他都是被這個行政這邊做了一些刁難所以我們給他的這個個人助理完全不是從生活自立的角度也不是從身心障礙者使用的角度來看待這件事情包括我看到你們的預算你們整體包括在裡面的自立生活預算去年還有8.45億今年"},{"start":270.071,"end":286.976,"text":"今年還有8.45億明年你的編列只剩下7.98億就是不增反減所以也是呈現一個下降的情況是不是我這個數據有沒有錯好像我們再確認一下那個同仁是說其實如果有這樣的一個情況不是減少是增加"},{"start":287.656,"end":315.188,"text":"對 如果是不增反減那這個是讓人家覺得非常失望因為本席在這一次的修法裡面47條之一呢還特別希望寬列預算可以入法就是說希望可以增加預算但是我們現在從使用者的這個平均的使用的時數跟現在政府所編列出來的預算我們都覺得是不足的所以在這個部分"},{"start":315.848,"end":343.64,"text":"看到你們今天的報告裡面呢這個好像對於修法不是很同意這個部長你們自己提出來的這個報告裡面你說你們都是行政思維你們提到的不可行的你們通通提到是什麼就說哎呀這個跟其他的長照啊就業部門社政部門個人助理等多所重疊然後又說相關法令規定產生競合"},{"start":344.56,"end":373.609,"text":"所以你们是不是就是不支持这个个人助理的部分就是明文入法不会因为现在其实已经入法你们是办法啦对对就是在母法里面有自立生活服务这一项是那这个自立生活服务呢再透过第51条的授权法规会定定这个照顾服务办法那这个办法里面的第9章就专门在谈自立生活服务自立生活服务有很多选项我知道不是只有个人助理"},{"start":373.769,"end":397.32,"text":"但是你現行的辦法 這個部長我要提醒你你現行的辦法 其實有一些需要去調整包括剛剛講的 各縣市你根本就不依嘛那你現在時數這麼低嘛然後你的整個審查的思維 還是行政管理的思維不是從使用者的角度 身心障礙者的角度來看待嘛所以你的限制坦白講是多的那如果加上你的預算沒有去寬裂的話"},{"start":398.18,"end":411.371,"text":"坦白說你也沒有資源啦你沒有錢沒有預算你就沒有辦法去增加個人的時數個人助理的時數嘛這個是緩緩連動的所以你要回答我嗎你的預算到底有沒有減少找出來了嗎應該是沒有減少啦那"},{"start":414.194,"end":438.175,"text":"這個計算的方式可能有所不同我們再跟委員去check一下計算方式可能不一樣不過呢剛剛委員提到的這些申請的程序的簡化啦還有資源怎麼讓他合用啦那麼服務的項目怎麼去做整合運用等等那這個我想在我們的授權辦法裡面我們可以來處理讓他各縣市的標準盡量"},{"start":438.916,"end":457.262,"text":"我覺得這一次身障團體他們要求要修法個人助理其實是重中之重他們講了一句話就是讓我聽了非常有感覺他說我們的障礙是24小時跟著他的但是我們現在可以申請到的個人助理的時數卻是只能非常短暫的"},{"start":457.822,"end":480.419,"text":"所以他每一天都要生活啊但是他这一些障碍就缺乏有人来帮他排除啊我觉得这句话你们应该要放在心上就是倒过来你们通常都是行政管理的思维倒过来以他为主体性去思考你就会发现我们现在的确还有很多不足我当然知道你们的量能不可能一下子跟上但是你总是要进步吧好不好这个是重中之重第二个就是"},{"start":481.42,"end":502.723,"text":"我們對於身心障礙者我們當然希望他可以走出社區然後融入職場所以對於想要工作的這些障礙者我們當然要在職場上面是更友善的但是我要讓你看一個案例這個是連我們的國營事業台鐵他禁用了身心障礙人士結果這位身心障礙者他想要調單位"},{"start":503.905,"end":516.463,"text":"結果台鐵做了什麼呢直接把他支錢就不用他了過了試用期直接就把他支錢了然後他透過行政這個民事的訴訟最後判決是這個身心障礙者贏了台鐵要罰他錢因為台鐵"},{"start":519.287,"end":538.359,"text":"他沒有按照我們現行的這些相關的給他一個合理的調整就身心障礙者他在工作場所他應該可以這個僱主應該幫他做一些合理的調整那台鐵通通都沒有他沒有針對溝通障礙或獨立作業困難進行職務再設計或合理調整"},{"start":539.6,"end":565.758,"text":"那這樣的一個情況就會造成我們身心障礙者好不容易找到一個工作了但是連我們的國營事業都這麼不用心然後是用之前的方式三個月叫他走路完全不肯去做一些相關的配合所以這一次的修法裡面呢我們就希望可以把這一個合理的這個調整入法但是我還是要講今天我看了大家報告非常遺憾喔"},{"start":567.033,"end":572.565,"text":"這個合理調整入法衛福部也沒有同意然後讓人家更失望的是我們的司法院"},{"start":573.74,"end":598.568,"text":"司法院你們的報告裡面你們寫出來的報告怎麼連司法院也這樣子呢司法院說這個合理調整呢這個應該有法院依具體個案情形審酌身心障礙者提出的需求是否逾越為適當決定意思就是說這個概念是模糊的沒有辦法入法也不支持是這樣子嗎司法院要不要講一下"},{"start":599.588,"end":610.782,"text":"你們有去體諒到身心障礙者嗎如果一個身心障礙者他們遇到一個情況他都要透過司法訴訟才能徵得他的權益這樣對他們合理嗎"},{"start":612.196,"end":637.015,"text":"跟委員報告我們在我們因為那個訴訟有很多個案上的狀況都不一定所以我們才會這樣子做說明但是其實我們司法院已經有公告這個身心障礙者禁用司法的指引那我們已經有發給所有的法院提醒他們說在程序調整這一塊法院必須要對身心障礙者禁用司法的權利的部分去做到什麼樣的事情"},{"start":637.455,"end":654.46,"text":"好 這個司法院只是指引啦 勞動部呢是弄了一個行政指導就是沒有一個相關主管機關希望他可以入法 明文就在身障法裡面 明文規定那這個部分 這個我是沒有辦法同意的 因為"},{"start":655.62,"end":679.665,"text":"讓更多的身心障礙者他可以在職場工作讓他達到自立生活我覺得這個是我們應該去追求的目標這應該是衛福部要去做而這個跨部會我覺得勞動部也應該要盡力來做現在的指導或指引我覺得都是不夠的這一次這波的修法我們就希望把它明文入法大家一起來保障我們身心障礙者合理的工作權"},{"start":680.285,"end":697.553,"text":"好 這個跟委員說明我們支持把合理調整這個路法所以我們在行政院的版本裡面會呈現好 所以衛福部同意嘛那希望相關其他單位就不要再反對了我們一起修法讓身心障礙者就是可以達到自立生活的目標 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝委員 謝謝部長各位請回"}]}},{"id":"166275","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166275","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c09ccdb0835d765a1dff56a78bd28eb12244a569ea12001d97db95e054bd3dacb45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:53:28 - 10:02:17","影片長度":"00:08:49","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T09:53:28+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T10:02:17+08:00","duration":529,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.95409375,"end":8.114093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.62034375,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.51846875,"end":28.262843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.36221875,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.836593750000002,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.96534375,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.298468750000005,"end":47.078468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.454093750000006,"end":47.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.77034375,"end":47.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.90534375,"end":47.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.98971875,"end":48.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.32721875,"end":49.103468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.01471875,"end":50.048468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.048468750000005,"end":50.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.26346875,"end":55.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.204093750000006,"end":61.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.164718750000006,"end":64.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.02096875000001,"end":73.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.39159375,"end":68.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.58909375,"end":73.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.63971875,"end":82.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.15846875000001,"end":76.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.89659375000001,"end":77.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.19971875,"end":82.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.97159375000001,"end":83.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.44409375000001,"end":83.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.46096875,"end":83.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.61284375000001,"end":83.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.50721875,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.47659375,"end":91.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.57784375,"end":91.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.74659375,"end":91.81409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.28159375000001,"end":124.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.45034375,"end":124.48409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.51784375000001,"end":140.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.35721875,"end":130.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.29596875000001,"end":153.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.59346875,"end":164.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.14534375000002,"end":159.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.15721875,"end":168.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.61221875,"end":189.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.06221875,"end":178.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.02409375000002,"end":179.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.94221875000002,"end":192.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.76034375,"end":203.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.67846875,"end":206.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.82596875000002,"end":207.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.63159375,"end":208.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.94784375,"end":209.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.90534375000001,"end":214.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.58409375000002,"end":217.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.60034375,"end":222.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.00909375,"end":225.73409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.71284375000002,"end":251.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.45159375000003,"end":283.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.67596875000004,"end":274.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.00909375000003,"end":275.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.80096875000004,"end":285.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.97784375000003,"end":301.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.76221875000005,"end":289.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.22409375,"end":306.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.16909375,"end":305.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.67096875000004,"end":305.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.32909375,"end":310.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.56909375000004,"end":314.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.86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我們一樣請部長邱委員部長好 一樣是我們身心障礙者權益保障法那我們這部保障法今年6月召委排審的時候你們的院版還在行政院像半年過去的召委在排審你們的還是一樣在行政院嗎"},{"start":29.071,"end":48.892,"text":"现在是在行政院做最后的确认因为上个礼拜有一些团体有来表示一些意见所以我们就重新检视一下再修一个版本应该预计在本月底或者是下个月初就会送到这是最快的对会最慢吗"},{"start":50.169,"end":61.32,"text":"會不會再慢應該差不多就是這個時間了我看是立法院修完了行政院才準備把自己的版本送過來部長你的角色是主管機關還是遲到的學生"},{"start":62.376,"end":81.561,"text":"當然我們是儲管機關我想說你們這次準備送進立法院的版本那內容跟你們2024年8月的公告修正的草案有沒有一樣不一樣不一樣因為當時候預告的時候那麼因為收到很多的意見所以我們才會又做很多的討論團體的討論改了什麼東西"},{"start":84.894,"end":113.057,"text":"包含这个在这个身心障碍的相关委员会的这个参与这个参与度我们会让他提高这个代表的比例会让他提高那另外呢把这个通用设计路法各级政府都要导入那另外在这个自立生活支持服务的部分我们也会有所琢磨那另外对于身心障碍服务机构"},{"start":115.538,"end":139.25,"text":"受服務者的權益保障消極條件等等我們也都有納入還有一些交通無障礙設施的部分也都會所以都是我們身障團體的一些訴求都進來了嗎像自力生活個人助理制度長照整合統一時數標準身障者的參與政策路法這些都已經進來了嗎"},{"start":140.63,"end":167.973,"text":"對就是說參與入法的部分就是說需要入法的我們把他進來那是執行面的東西像如何去整合執行面的東西我們會從我們的行政作業面來執行那部長我再確認一件事情這個胰臟酵素製劑卡麗硝有沒有列入這個藥事法第27條之二所講的必要藥品這個目前是這個基本藥物就是那個必要藥品"},{"start":168.652,"end":188.727,"text":"那現在的規定的必要藥品只要預期供應不足至少要提前6個月通報或者是天災不可規則的突發事件要在事發後30天來通報嘛對不對那你們11月25號就把這個卡麗硝放在缺藥平台照理來講卡麗硝是必要藥品應該有6個月以上的庫存安全期"},{"start":189.963,"end":216.861,"text":"可是你們又現在說只剩下一個月不然這怎麼回事因為這個法還沒有修過我們現在目前有提出這個藥事法的修法所以他那個庫存的情形沒有到六個月是這個還沒有但是我們現在已經你們是什麼時候接到通報的確認的時間我要再請這個食藥署去查一下是醫院反映的還是這個平台反映"},{"start":217.799,"end":225.405,"text":"我們這個是由這個業者業者直接那為什麼你要等到這個一個月後才公報啊"},{"start":227.275,"end":250.942,"text":"應該是說他會進行一些作業程序去確認這個沒有可替代性就是說他通報之後他先通報說我可能要停止供貨或者是供應量會下降然後就會進入這個專家的討論說有沒有其他的可替代性如果沒有可替代性就會啟動專案製造或專案輸入像這個就是要專案輸入了"},{"start":252.162,"end":279.307,"text":"那我因為我看台灣現在缺藥大家已經見怪不怪了像外科手術用的那個CHG的那個劑型都在缺這就不是一般的問題了這張照片是我們苗栗外科手這個醫師的手原本他們進手術前都要消毒用的是隨意M的那個乾式刷手液比較不傷手但是7年開始全台大缺貨醫生護理人員至少被迫"},{"start":279.987,"end":300.587,"text":"回到過去用刺激性更強的這個CHG的刷手藝那甚至優點來手藝來洗手那外科醫師排班比較多的話他可能一天刷十幾次 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因為這些藥啊我們都是經過市場的藥價調查那麼他有一定的藥價差黑箱就越多啊黑箱越多利益分配就越大嘛那一問到專案價格你們就說是機密嘛"},{"start":455.282,"end":479.355,"text":"對不對那如果機密價格進口商少數流程快速採購不透明你們靠專案輸入就能繞過健保的購買繞過審查的流程也繞過監督的機制跟委員說明普通在專案輸入進口的時候他都是跟現行的幾戶的要價是相同的為優先對因為開了要價之後哪一家拿到好像是"},{"start":480.436,"end":493.562,"text":"你們說了算嘛沒有 他是公開徵求他是會 他會上網公開徵求然後我們要價的部分呢原則上說會跟現行的要價是相同的為原則那為什麼每次問到多少錢你們都說是機密勒"},{"start":494.885,"end":520.484,"text":"那個是實際上這個供貨的價格跟我們給付價格我們會公告的是給付價格就是跟大家都是一樣但是醫院的採購價那個是醫院的採購價我這樣講啦部長這個遊戲不要再玩了就是說專案輸入永遠比這個之前的都貴啦也比較黑箱我希望以後我們這個部分能夠更透明更公開絕對不要變成常態"},{"start":521.485,"end":525.052,"text":"我們一定是採取公開透明的原則好 謝謝部長好 謝謝邱委員"}]}},{"id":"166274","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166274","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0ce5c8d4b3e7730baa68b3568d601d3dc44a569ea12001d97b75eef7241a86e735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:57:18 - 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第十條跟第十四條三個條文修正這三個條文大概分成三個部分我們就來討論剛剛前面委員大概大家都非常關心有關於第七條的修正就是你們要增設一位增設一位政務"},{"start":56,"end":66.568,"text":"政府副首長的這個案子你們有立法理由你們提出很多為什麼你們認為應該要增設簡單講就是你們認為說現在兩個"},{"start":70.512,"end":88.625,"text":"副首長是不夠的啦所以應該有第三個啦這是第一個問題啦要不要有第三個副首長第二個問題是那這個增設的這個是要正路還是要長路這個這又是剛剛我這又是大家所關注的另外一個問題但是我比較關注的是是說齁"},{"start":90.307,"end":109.648,"text":"就法字面來講我這今天很大概就是看我們今天所有列席單位的意見那除了主計處主計總署以外我看到這個我們的這個人事行我們的人總跟我們的這個權序部好像都對你們今天三條修法"},{"start":112.15,"end":131.919,"text":"在我看已經是蠻強烈的意見了在過去就是有關相關的這個組織法規的修改的時候也許榮獲各個其他部會 榮獲有不同的看法但是以這麼強烈的態度來對你們這次的修法提出質疑在我看是罕見"},{"start":133.502,"end":151.98,"text":"其實很 也你有仔細看人總跟這個全序部的報告嗎有喔謝謝他們提供寶貴的意見今天我們人總是由我們專門委員是不是能夠麻煩你上台一下我們這次把大家的意見對一對這個"},{"start":158.209,"end":170.743,"text":"簡單講我們現在目前的修法這次你們審計部所提出來第七條有關於這個這個機關副首長的部分你們的立法那個審計長你們的這個立法"},{"start":172.665,"end":194.748,"text":"的理由根據是依照這個中央行政機關組織基準法第19條嘛對不對原來第19條這個二級機關得知副首長一人至三人其中一人應列常務職務其餘應列政務職務但是你們現在是相反你們是只有一個政務兩個常務所以你們跟事實上跟19條第二"},{"start":196.489,"end":215.595,"text":"這個第二項的規定也不盡相同那更重要的你們引用了第38條啦你們引用了說本法與行政院以外之中央機關準用之你們認為因為這一條第38條所以你們可以準用第49條第二項 對不對我這樣理解是你們的態度嘛 對不對好 那我現在就請問這個任總"},{"start":219.568,"end":235.044,"text":"我看你們的書面報告其實蠻簡單的只有三頁而已但是你們的意見卻非常的明確你們認為剛剛我們沈記長所講的這樣子的準用方式用第38條來準用第19條第二項你們有什麼樣的意見"},{"start":236.807,"end":264.298,"text":"報告委員那準用的部分就是原則上依照法務部相關的見解就是相關的法規在準用的過程裡面要嘛就一部全部適用要嘛就沒有準用的概念那因為我們裡面有提到就是說這個準用的部分如果有特殊情況的話它是可以予以續名的那再加上沈記長跟一般的部會他的那個首長任命的情況其實不一樣他是憲法保障"},{"start":264.898,"end":291.163,"text":"的部分所以這個部分如果審計部這邊他認為在相關的政務部的副所長設置上有他的特殊旅遊一樣可以續名他的特殊情況和以上簡單講我看你們的書面意見你們就是說這個如果你要用第30你要用第38條來准用的話你應該是全部都要准用而不是說"},{"start":293.146,"end":305.263,"text":"現在你的講法意思就是說如果你只要挑一條準用那你要續名理由要嘛就是你們所有的你們的組織法你們就應該要準用就我們就"},{"start":306.932,"end":322.999,"text":"就全部來准用這個中央行政機關的組織基準法要不然你現在只挑其中一條要准用你要續名你的理由為什麼你要這樣是不是大概意思是這樣吧那這個簡單講就是你們認為認為這個其實像用第38條准用的其實"},{"start":336.002,"end":364.24,"text":"過去是主要是考試院對不對考試院我們考試院就行政機關以外的這些這些部會主要是考試院那考試院這個他的性質跟行政院組織相近那也設有這個部會這個部會組織型態的附屬機關所以你們認為說現行考試院跟這個所屬機關都已經準用基準基準法制定他們已經全面準用基準這個這個組織基準法的適用了但是你們監察院卻沒有"},{"start":365.221,"end":376.782,"text":"你們這個屬於監察院的我們的審計部卻沒有都沒有准用但你們今天只挑這一條簡單講你們整個中央組織基準法你們現在就挑第19條第二項來准用"},{"start":379.725,"end":403.652,"text":"這部分是不是請這個沈議長你要不要說明一下你們是其他的這個有關於這個我們整個整個這個中央組織計準法八號委員是這樣齁我只有一個我的目標出來說我的預算從11兆到27兆的監督規模我的發展方向是要從監督左向洞察"},{"start":406.333,"end":429.333,"text":"不好意思 因為我沒有注意到說我們今天給的時間比較短那我簡單講那我知道 反正因為你有書面在序名裡有但是你要看喔其實人總跟權序部對你們這條修法都非常非常的保留我講保留已經很客氣了其實都不同意你們這樣子的引用法律這是第一個"},{"start":430.253,"end":445.802,"text":"第二個有關於這個審計組織法有關於今天的這個組織法的第十條跟第十四條的修正這個他們意見更大這個這個全序部的意見更大全序部我們今天是是這個師長 黃師長"},{"start":452.718,"end":462.432,"text":"好好委員長簡單講齁你們的這個這個第10條跟第14條的修法來很不好意思佔用到一點時間又沒有注意到今天我們的這個發言時間齁縮短這麼多這個"},{"start":466.636,"end":491.345,"text":"你們第10條 簡單講你們就是增加人啦先等一下 先審計長 對不對對 希望增加人審計你們從61到91增加到85到115對不對稽查你們從原本的31到61人你們增加到52到79人那另外這個更重要的 到第14條的時候你們把這個值等做了變更"},{"start":494.059,"end":506.097,"text":"那我先不講這個人數的增加的部分就第14條就第14條裡面增列第三項原本第14條是說審計處事之組織另依法律定制"},{"start":507.413,"end":517.997,"text":"這個是原本的第三項你們把第三項改成第四項就是說除了第三項以外的其他的有法律定制就是這個授權所訂定的法律就是審計處審計處事組織通責對不對原本的法制是這樣就是這個授權它就是審計處事組織通責"},{"start":526.738,"end":554.206,"text":"但是審計初次通則裡面第八條第九條原本把你們這裡的這個審計官原本第八條第九條規定是十到十三值等原本這個按照組織通則是這樣子但是因為民國七十六年實施這個公務人員任用法公務人員任用法實施之後前進部是不是這樣子我現在描述的如果有講錯麻煩你指正我一下"},{"start":555.592,"end":575.03,"text":"這是因為這個76年1月公務員任用法施行之後公務員任用法的第六條他就授權了訂定中央機關職務的列等表所以現在其實你們是依照列等表在列職等不是依照審計處組織通知在列職等對不對是不是這樣 審議長現在目前"},{"start":576.872,"end":604.66,"text":"目前是因為前夕部有一個列登表我們本來法例規定我是十三值等但是前口也都十三值等本來法例就是審計處事組織通則用一個行政命令把我列成所有值等我向前夕部要說我法就十三值等你為什麼所有的機關都十三值等為什麼把我列成所有值等他來一個公文你趕快修法所以我就修法所以今天才站在這裡錯了"},{"start":607.113,"end":630.326,"text":"我跟你講今天的這個爭議有兩個爭議啦有 全系部不同意兩個部分第一個是說認為你們不應該用組織法不應該把這一條在組織法裡面修正你們應該是要去修正審計處處事組織通則你們應該 因為他法已經授權了嘛這一個因為那個已經十三指等了要我怎麼修那我只有問那個全系部長那我是不是修到組織法 他說可以"},{"start":634.528,"end":652.821,"text":"好 沈記長我跟你講所以我在最後 我簡單的結論就是這樣就是說你今天這個修法其實沒有得到人總跟權序部這些相關相關的這些機關你們沒有得到他們的共識大家沒有這個共識所以你們在沒有共識的情況下你們就提出來"},{"start":653.601,"end":668.981,"text":"全新部有他的理由我剛講兩個部分第一個是形式上面你們不應該用組織法來修修這個值等這是他們第一個意見第二個意見實質內容你們要把它全部通通提升為十三值等他們也有意見因為你們這個違反了你們這個"},{"start":671.404,"end":682.353,"text":"我的華 我的通則是十三十等所有的機關都十三十等所以你的通則 他們的意思啦欸 怎麼會 我都人啊 都是一條邊的 他們派來的啊我知道 沈議長 他們的意見就是認為你們應該這個組織通則應該要去修改應該要去修改 特別全區部是不是這個意見就是說他們不應該用組織"},{"start":695.083,"end":719.984,"text":"但是我有打電話給他的部長 他的部長說可以因為我的通走已經十三組等了 你要叫我怎麼修不好意思 我顫到你的時間齁這個齁 你打電話給他的部長 他部長所說的跟他們今天寫在書面白紙黑字寫的意見是不一樣的啦齁我損系部今天會壓到這麼低啊他們多數前系部的 多數派來的人事主任啊"},{"start":720.629,"end":746.996,"text":"因為齁 我最後講結論因為各機關職稱 機關等的這個原額配置標準的這個配置準則裡面齁他的第九條第九條第一項第五款裡面他有針對一二級機關主管機關的檢認非主管職跟這個二級單位主管的原額配置的比例他有規定應該是70%而已你們現在修法之前你們就已經到達80%"},{"start":749.036,"end":767.615,"text":"這個啊修法之後會到達150%這個人數他是怎麼算出來我不知道我所有的結論啊現在佔比只有百分之十二我要去查國家的法照我要查少主化我要查氣候變遷這個要五到七等能查嗎"},{"start":768.961,"end":782.709,"text":"那個沈縣長 我跟你講 我個人我個人並沒有說在這裡質疑你的修法你都一直幫我 但是我我的人事主任是你對沈縣長很不爽都是他派來的人啊"},{"start":784.634,"end":803.976,"text":"派來 我要修這個法的時候 我要告訴人事主任一定要在法的範圍裡面來修今天修來了 他還寫這麼多意見我有什麼辦法這就是我今天答詢的主旨 就是說怎麼會在修法裡面全序部跟人總寫這麼大的意見 在修法裡面"},{"start":804.196,"end":805.537,"text":"我相信這個議題應該等一下很多委員都在旁邊"}]}},{"id":"166273","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166273","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c06cd851e83e0dd1ebed0cecc406237e9644a569ea12001d9732eaf49779187fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:07:43 - 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多項的指標其實它這個數字不是停滯它是有一點點往下滑喔那剛剛就我所提到的也許因為你們因為資安的事件所以現在我們的"},{"start":188.227,"end":209.899,"text":"115年的我们的KPI其实目前都还没有定定最快什么时候可以定下一些标准因为我们没有KPI其实我们就没有这样子的一个指标可以去对照那我想这个是因为单一的个案的一个事件的影响影响到你们之后的KPI的设置那请问你们KPI最快什么时候可以出来我们希望能够在今年重新盘整年底"},{"start":210.319,"end":239.347,"text":"之前重新判证之后我们尽快的提出但是详细的日期我是不是能够在跟同仁讨论之后主管都已经确认在跟您报告好 我想呢其实这个身为这个我们公共的媒体尤其是我们这样子的一个等同就是国家的一个门面所以其实不管是资安的一些控管然后另外就是我们的整个所有的这个央广的一个绩效能够同步的来提升其实非常的重要我们一定会浴火重生谢谢委员"},{"start":239.807,"end":263.933,"text":"那因為時間的關係我還有本來要問一下就是我們的這個電影修復的一個問題部長我想再給我兩分鐘的時間讓我們來提一下這個電影修復的一個問題我想這個國影中心其實目前典藏超過19000部的一個影片但是到2024年年底我們僅完成了7429部的一個膠捲的一個數位化那修復了98部的一個經典的影片"},{"start":264.333,"end":284.206,"text":"那剩下的仍然停留在這個新北市的樹林工業區的17座的片庫當中但是這些片庫因為它的環境老舊然後空間受限再來其實修復的人力的部分其實這個將來也是我們要聚焦的一個重點那我想目前其實在修復的體系當中面臨最大的兩塊"},{"start":285.367,"end":305.414,"text":"第一個就是我們修復的人才的不足再來就是我們修復的一個成果是不是能夠真正能夠轉換到所謂的公共的教育跟文化上的應用這個部分其實我之後再提供我的書面的質詢因為今天時間的關係我看主席一直站起來對不對好 辛苦了今天也謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員謝謝郭玉琴委員協助"}]}},{"id":"166272","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166272","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c08049a485b79f9fd69ecb9f93c172c55144a569ea12001d974a35e1cf326b66635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:59:52 - 10:10:52","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「財政收支劃分法」7案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員郭國文等17人、委員賴瑞隆等19人、委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n(二)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等26人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例」2案：（僅詢答）\n(一)本院委員郭國文等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n 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請莊部長 阮次長"},{"start":14.349,"end":34.686,"text":"委員好部長我想法案上如果有官方的版本當然很好但是有時候有官方的版本也不能跑到委員會來這邊審查就如同財法法一般我們雖然有行政院的版本但是程序委員會都沒有辦法過所以說關鍵恐怕不是行政院版本與否"},{"start":35.346,"end":52.953,"text":"關鍵其實是一個對這個政策的一個基本態度的問題然後我們今天要談先談這個有關於這個財政收支發分法的這個部分財政收支發分法現在外面其實陷入一個付不付署公不公佈 執不執行的一個問題"},{"start":54.193,"end":81.141,"text":"那我也要提醒一下部長部長 這個圖片當中你也是附屬人之一這個問題一定要搞清楚連工商團體現在都看不下去了更何況本席要請教於你的在野黨的部分過去的時候我就一再強調你要去慎重溝通好像也沒有部長 這說一下吧現在僵局了 怎麼辦 怎麼處理以你部長的高度"},{"start":82.402,"end":93.315,"text":"跟委員報告 財化法其實是非常重要它是一個財政的基本法然後行政院也已經提出版本行政院是經過跟相關地方政府多次討論而且參酌了各專家學者的意見以後我們提出了院版的財化法"},{"start":101.524,"end":121.643,"text":"我們認為院版的裁劃法應該盡快的審議盡快的審議然後把已經走偏的火車趕快把它導正回來而不是一修再修二修三修院版的裁劃法就如同剛剛有委員說是需要召開公聽會連你去公視院版的裁劃法不知道歷經了幾次的公聽會歷經了幾次的各縣市的這個財政首長會議所累積而來的嘛 不是嗎"},{"start":126.955,"end":140.462,"text":"經過多次考慮 審慎了規劃就行政院的版本當中跟目前之前所通過的國中兩版國中兩版的相關的指標的部分其實過度粗糙我上一次就請審計部做一個藍白三次二修所造成的可能結果"},{"start":145.765,"end":146.146,"text":"這審計部的看法"},{"start":173.346,"end":175.867,"text":"就很清楚嘛再加上現階段舉債額度可能超過15%可能會違憲嘛對不對這些都問題然後呢我就今天我要感謝這個主席排我的版本我的版本當中第一個呢錢要隨市轉就是市權在決定這個財權這個整個地方才不會抗拒這個業務"},{"start":195.333,"end":218.012,"text":"二来我把统筹分配款拉到6000多亿累积起来大概可以补助给地方也是1.2兆这跟行政院版本也是相符第三呢指标细致化这也是跟行政院版本相符所以说呢相差无几行政院版本虽然晚了一点但是你们有你们的创建譬如讲你把研究税法的80%那个部分你也纳入了"},{"start":218.712,"end":238.11,"text":"這就是讓統籌分配款的財源給增加而且所有的指標跟權數也更加的細緻化是不是 部長這個部分你要怎麼辦既然是相對比較好的版本為什麼送不出去你沒有其他的方法嗎你有沒有窮盡洪荒之力去跟這些在野黨來做溝通 有沒有"},{"start":238.57,"end":256.636,"text":"是的 我们也都有去沟通我想这个部分还是希望我们院版的才化法能够赴委尽快审查大家都可以来讨论如同刚刚委员所说的上次3月12号公布的那个才化法确实有这样的一个问题第一个钱权下去但是事权没有同时做调整"},{"start":257.076,"end":272.51,"text":"那第二個部分指標相當粗略就是人口加上盈利事業營業額的分配達到75%這麼高那就是偏重在一個工商發達的一個城市我們告訴大家台北市光是盈利事業額所"},{"start":273.21,"end":295.423,"text":"貨配的金額115年就達到700多億比114年它各指標加起來都還多出16億元這你就知道讓富的更富但是其他的縣市尤其農業的縣份它並沒有獲得很好的一個支持那在院版裡面對於我們的農林榆木的人口產值我們都給予"},{"start":296.383,"end":299.984,"text":"指標來讓他來計算可以加成計算那對於農業憲憤他對於國家糧食對於國土保育我們都要給予回饋讓他能夠做更好的處理對 那個部長這個你要常在媒體說常跟藍白立委說啦你看連工商團體都看不下去了即便你那個版本現有的通過版本對工商地區比較發達的地方是好的可是連工商團體看不下去這樣的情況你真的要費盡心思啦"},{"start":324.293,"end":341.656,"text":"不能抹滅農業憲憤對國家的安全國家糧食安全的貢獻台南是六度當中明年是邁拉斯的在整個統籌分配款上面另外一個部分我再請一下那個次長次長你這份報告很好可是你剛剛完全沒有回答其他委員的這一個"},{"start":342.597,"end":358.122,"text":"那个值以我要说的其实是你现阶段的这个部分为什么5000亿变成这个一兆有它规模跟时间的向度对不对 这是第一个第二个的部分我说实在你根本不需要保留那四大基金3000万"},{"start":359.062,"end":375.495,"text":"你根本用不到嘛世大基金有它的自主性嘛講白一點你就乾脆把它刪掉你就跟著直接銀行調度就好了這樣你的運用空間會比較彈性嘛否則的話它就是為你五千億實際上你是哈咖啡系只有兩千億而且用得非常省用得非常的戰戰兢兢那事實上這種規模已經到這種階段了市長 你要講一下是"},{"start":381,"end":392.729,"text":"剛才因為他沒有讓我機會來回答所以我就沒有回答我在這邊做一個簡單的說明事實上我們國安基金條例是民國89年就開始實施了那時候股市的規模只有大概8.2兆現在已經回到將近100兆"},{"start":404.119,"end":423.014,"text":"足足大了十倍以上嘛對不對對那另外就是外資很重要外資那時候當時只有8.44%占比在8.44%那現在已經達到46.85%就是那個比重非常高另外就成交值日成交量來講的話"},{"start":424.375,"end":436.987,"text":"我們這個11月份那麼跟這個現在11月份那麼成交量就達到平均量就達到4800多億4800多億那事實上11月份達到6000多億那103年度也是一樣達到這個4600多億"},{"start":447.117,"end":454.038,"text":"所以以過去這個25年前的當時的這個規模2000億就是可以用的那個2000億來講以目前的這個股市的規模跟外資的這個比重來看的確在護盤上非常的困難非常困難也就是說那個心理因素沒有達到安全感的可能性就是說你不會認為有護盤的可能性嘛所以這個規模應該要增加嘛對不對 這理由上其實也講得非常清楚"},{"start":475.743,"end":497.338,"text":"那要問的是說你現在這一波是屬於第九波嘛進轉護盤嘛 是 沒錯那目前帳面上是plus還是minus的現在是正的是正的嘛 是正的那正多少因為沒辦法現在沒有辦法結算不方便講嘛依照股市的這個走勢你們那個時間點應該是正的沒有錯可是過去八次的進場當中總共獲利661億這個某個程度來說"},{"start":503.402,"end":528.332,"text":"是政府在賺這一個股災財就是黨散戶的時候心裡恐慌的時候紛紛棄股 落跑的時候你去撿便宜的股份這660億一下子無條件的歸入國庫這好像還是有問題新加坡都知道賺這種錢的時候他要拿出來發了你是不是要把這一筆錢來想像一個比較好的用途譬如講長照"},{"start":529.392,"end":549.27,"text":"譬如講健保 譬如講國保有沒有各種可能性跟委員報告國安基金的這個賺的錢經過委員會決議以後那我們基本上是繳戶繳戶以後那就該開始統收統支當然是知道放在大水庫當中我也不可能流到外面去我也清楚"},{"start":549.85,"end":558.336,"text":"那問題是現在我跟您提出來是說有些民眾說這些錢就是我們當初虧損的錢雖然不是這個被割韭菜但是是被割韭菜的這種情況底下你是不是要考慮一下跟委員報告這些賺的錢如果留在國安基金的話因為國安基金已經退場了也不能再買股票什麼都不行對 是沒有嘛我現在跟你講的是說你現在也plus"},{"start":576.85,"end":582.135,"text":"現在已經過去661嘛你這一次又Plus嘛又賺嘛這累積的金額會越來越高嘛大家眼睛會看啊你賺的錢怎麼用嘛你看你最近補充保費的問題啊國保的問題啊長照的經費的問題啊"},{"start":592.623,"end":610.655,"text":"是不是有可能在政策上來思考一下本席就問你這一點是 了解委員的想法如果要這樣做的話可能要修那個國安基金條例就是對他的用途要有明確的規範對 如果這基金的條例要修你們就政策上先討論委員會先行討論啦我建議你在委員會的時候內部先溝通一下可不可以"},{"start":611.395,"end":627.188,"text":"除了金額之外以後這個目標會越來越清楚你累積的這個獲利越高的話大家就會越去懷疑說你這筆錢真的是趁著這一個股災來累積財富那這個要大家要共識對 要共識你要過去討論啊可以吧"},{"start":631.331,"end":645.898,"text":"可以吧這部分我剛才跟委員報告過以目前的條例的規定是沒有 我就說你回去討論一下你今天即時祕書你就有提案的權利我們來研議我們來研議看看對 至少要去面對這個問題外面已經在挑戰了好不好是 我們來研議看看謝謝主席 謝謝部長跟次長好 謝謝郭委員接下來我們請賴會員委員"}]}},{"id":"166271","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166271","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c02cac9096fa2b6bbded0cecc406237e9644a569ea12001d97aec69ac5727ffa9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:02:11 - 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現在請郭育晴委員質詢謝謝主席 有請部長請部長郭育晴你好"},{"start":19.023,"end":39.524,"text":"部長早安我想這個公廣應該是屬於全民以服務公眾應該是唯一的一個宗旨在商業媒體在追求收視跟一些所謂的廣告利潤的同時其實我們應該要更兼顧所謂的多元跟節目上的一個品質來做一個跟商業的區別或者是一些多元的一些制衡"},{"start":40.765,"end":65.744,"text":"但是這個以現階段其實以我最關心的動保為例我想這一整個大概這一兩個月或者是這一兩週其實動保的事件或者是虐貓虐狗的事件或者是苗栗的人人犬社的一個事件這樣子的一個虐貓虐狗的事件頻傳但是在我的觀察之下這個公廣跟這些所謂的公媒的專題的報導"},{"start":67.925,"end":94.04,"text":"這個數量感覺上明顯偏低啦已經被這個網媒跟一些民間來領先了那我想這個公廣的一個任務應該是說我們要針對這個社會的痛點來做一些深入的一個報導是不是可以針對所謂的像居住啦弱勢啦災害啦甚至動保等等這樣子的一個議題來設定所謂的公共議題最低的一個產量然後能夠及時反映當下的一些社會議題的一個機制這一點您認同嗎"},{"start":97.725,"end":106.003,"text":"我個人認同但是因為對於公共電視公共媒體他們本身的一些對於新聞的比例我們通常都尊重是"},{"start":107.217,"end":131.205,"text":"所以尊重而已尊重 因為我不太能干預我好像不太能干預說哪一類的新聞要比例多少那這個部分我是建議就是說我們在公共議題上是不是應該要就是各個公廣的一個不管是什麼樣的一個媒體我們來設計一個最低的一個產量那我覺得這個比較貼近一般民眾關心的一些重要的議題"},{"start":132.185,"end":153.927,"text":"好那接下來我想要問的就是這個央廣其實是國家對外的一個最重要的一個聲音那一旦他的系統被破壞或者是被操弄其實就是整個國家形象的一個風險那先前這個遭到駭客入侵這樣子的一個事件其實震驚各界那也是找出了這個當事人那也做了一些處理"},{"start":154.528,"end":179.83,"text":"但是我想這是公共媒體是國家形象的第一線那這件事件整個曝露出來就是資安治理的一個風險那我想其實資安治理並不等於所謂的IT的維運的一個迷思那我想這個未來這個央廣是不是也願意導入第三方的一個資安的一個集合這也是應該是非常重要會被納入這樣子的一個考量"},{"start":180.37,"end":207.824,"text":"那我接下來想問是不是願意每年接受所謂的外部治安的穿透的測試因為這件事件之後然後再來被害之後的通報流程跟應變的SOP現在有沒有進行全面的檢討或者是全面的更新這是我第二個問題那當然這個案子呢其實這個員工已經離職那但是其實也透露出所謂的像外包廠商或者是權限交接的風險"},{"start":209.105,"end":231.264,"text":"其實這個部分其實是風險是暴露出來的這個風險其實極高那央廣是不是已經建立所謂的公媒系統共通的一個內控的標準那將來是不是在建立所謂的離職轉調或外包廠商他們的即時權限有收回的一個制度那這個是我的第三個問題那另外就是我們願不願意能夠成"},{"start":232.085,"end":238.756,"text":"承諾就是能夠建立所謂的跨單位的資安最低的一個標準那麼包含哪一些"},{"start":239.895,"end":268.541,"text":"原始碼的保存或者是存取的一些記錄還有異常的這些警示那是不是也能夠作為所謂的這一次事件之後的一個檢討或者是示範改善的計畫甚至提供給其他的我們的公廣的集團也可以來作為參考我想把這個個案變成一個政策的一個要求其實我相信這個應該也是我們努力的一個方向目前有沒有朝我剛剛所提的這幾個問題有在進行或者是有在計畫請教"},{"start":269.901,"end":277.111,"text":"我想是不是请央管董事长来跟您报告好 没问题谢谢委员咨询的确我们在这一次"}]}},{"id":"166270","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166270","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0d1d20b90d9774057ed0cecc406237e9644a569ea12001d97d7dcd980b23cef445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:48:03 - 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就是我们昨天已经开了一个评审委员的预备会议那通常开预备会议就表示任何时候都可以开评审会了那在开评审会之前我们一定要把这个名单交给评审委员"},{"start":69.344,"end":89.094,"text":"我理解所以我们现在上个月您说的这一个人现在是把它补齐了吗对对对那本席就很好奇了就是说如果我们已经把它补齐了当然因为赵伟是这个12月2号的时候把这个议程排出来了那我看你们4号就启动了这个所谓的这个9号要开预备会议我觉得"},{"start":89.594,"end":104.347,"text":"蛮呼应朝伪在这个2号排案之后呢你们就赶快来做这个预备会议但是呢今天听到也有好消息是说人选出来了不过这个人选既然已经出来了我们延宕了一年多了那为什么还不赶快公布呢"},{"start":105.052,"end":125.222,"text":"公佈的話按照規定要先給評審委員先拿到之後我們就公佈所以他們還沒拿到還沒拿到那你這個人選什麼時候出來的其實我心裡很急因為我很想公佈不然我會背負著一直不公佈名單的壓力你可以說沒有關係啊名單我不能說啊必須要先給到那你什麼時候有這個名單的"},{"start":126.463,"end":135.266,"text":"我什麼時候有這個名單啊我有這個名單已經一年一年左右了不是不是我說你現在補期了嘛什麼時候補期哪一天補期的什麼時候補期就是其實我跟你講句實話你難道在這裡要講假話嗎"},{"start":143.325,"end":157.774,"text":"我隨時要補齊 隨時就要退出你知道我是很難嗎 就是不是啦 部長我是想請教您一下因為上個月的時候您說差一位嘛那現在今天說補齊了我想知道在這一個月當中是30天前就補齊還是昨天才補齊是什麼時候補齊的"},{"start":158.815,"end":183.333,"text":"当然是以前就补齐就是当你们一直在咨询的时候其实我们一直在谈我并没有因为部长我跟你讲这一定要跟你问清楚因为上个月在这里你那时候说差一个对不对对那这一个在这一个月当中你是哪一天补齐的哪一天我忘了但是我多久前一个礼拜十天绝对不是为了这个没有关系大概多久前你告诉我很早大概三个礼拜前"},{"start":184.602,"end":211.423,"text":"好 还有三个礼拜前既然三个礼拜前都把人都已经这个名单出来也补齐了那为什么现在还没有办法送这个您刚刚所说的这个评审委员要看然后没有办法赶快公布为什么还要再耽搁三个礼拜其实官司约评审委员见面开预备会议这件事情就非常不容易我们给了非常多的时间最后终于还勉强抽到了人数比较多的那一天好 没关系那一天刚好就是"},{"start":212.223,"end":233.018,"text":"昨天所以各位不要擔心以為說我是故意其實不會不會不會我們不會擔心你是故意啦但我只擔心我不擔心故不故意這件事我擔心的是一直延宕下去這件事是比較重要所以今天有這個好消息其實算一半就說人有補齊但是能不能部長什麼時候名單會出來你可以預告一個時間嗎我其實跟委員報告"},{"start":236.5,"end":247.855,"text":"我為什麼找不到這麼多足夠的我不想聽你的心情我想知道一下這個明天大概什麼時候會出來如果能夠公佈我恨不得現在公佈但是按照規定我必須等到評審委員拿到這個才行"},{"start":252.401,"end":278.881,"text":"来来来 董事长我想我们公事新任董事的提名作业已经延长一年多了今天当然有这个算半的好消息但是你看我们大家担心到什么程度就连现任的公事董事会都在11月21号决议要发函给行政院希望请行政院要加速进行公事基金会董监事换届改组的一个作业那董事长请教您一下我们现在发函给行政院之后行政院有回复吗"},{"start":281.409,"end":296.463,"text":"行政院已經收到我們的函件我回覆嗎 還沒有收到正式的回覆不過我們知道文化部現在正在所以你看我們11月給他現在也已經就是12月多了那我們被行政院已讀不回你會不會覺得沒有被尊重啊"},{"start":297.886,"end":311.647,"text":"行政院有聯繫說他們收到以後他們說已經跟文化部只是還沒有回覆沒有正式的書面回覆那他有口頭跟你回覆不是跟我 他是跟我們的秘書室所以有口頭回覆"},{"start":313.78,"end":336.01,"text":"我想应该可能会有个书面吧但我们还没说到好了 我跟你讲那个部长还有这个董长我觉得我们在问这个过程当中我觉得你可能有百般的无奈那这个行政院已读不回也好然后我们中年党这么久我知道你们急但急是心情上但我觉得事实上作业要再快一点那接下来我想请教一下董长"},{"start":336.75,"end":353.124,"text":"我们在这个第七届的这个董事会的任期原本到今年的五月三一码那我们看到公示的这个官网上也放上第七届董事三年的成果报告那我想请教一下胡董事长您对您自己的这个董事会过去的成绩公广集团的团队您是满意的吗"},{"start":354.561,"end":379.378,"text":"我非常感謝所有董監事在我們定定的三年目標跟策略方針上努力做給自己團隊打幾分我想我們不應該自己打成績應該交給全民來打我說你幫他們打成績耶你自己的團隊 你給你的團隊打我的責任應該是最大所以恐怕也不好幫所以你也沒辦法肯定他們沒辦法打個好成績給他們我剛才已經講非常感謝他們在這一段時間所以只有感謝沒有肯定是不是"},{"start":380.738,"end":395.907,"text":"委員當然不是這個意思 董事長底下人那麼辛苦 該肯定就要肯定來 這邊有一份我們看到我們為了要評估公廣集團所屬的這些單位是不是有旅行公共價值包括像公視華視等等"},{"start":396.627,"end":421.956,"text":"在2024年的時候有委託了東方線上股份有限公司對於相關的公網集團所屬的這些單位的觸達率 節目品質 滿意度 影響力還有公共服務營運效率等五大面向進行調查這是一份財團法人公共電視文化基金會2024年公共價值評量調查研究這份你看過嗎"},{"start":423.356,"end":438.828,"text":"看過我們這屆董事會要求每一年執行這個公共價值評量你看過嗎在這個報告當中本席看到公視歷年的觸達率可以說是逐年下降逐年下降就可能過去10年下來"},{"start":439.969,"end":464.332,"text":"那我们看到这个处答率是越来越低再来呢我们看到这个报告也有分别去调查海外的这个针对这个台湾Plus的部分那这个海外的外籍的观众在台的外籍观众还有本国的观众进行这个节目满意度的这个一个调查我们看到这个数字看起来虽然好像蛮漂亮的它是一个用分数用打分数的方式对吗"},{"start":465.452,"end":488.705,"text":"但是你看我們的調查樣本大概只有6個人到10個人那我們就把這份研究報告拿出來你覺得這個有參考性跟代表性嗎可不可以說明一下好 謝謝第一個要說明一下頻道的觸達就是所謂的頻道收視率的下降是全部電視的生態也不是只有台灣我們當然在這個部分我們也並沒有做到比較好的"},{"start":489.725,"end":513.324,"text":"結果那這個部分我們透過其他平台增加所以剛才報告我們所有的數位平台的收視的觸達都在倍增所以這點要先說明那至於這個部分台灣plus的部分是因為沒有辦法對國外進行普查或者是其他方式的調查所以我們用的是直訊調查的方法直訊調查方法所以它樣本比較少它是用focus group的概念去進行的我們還有本國觀眾啊 董事長"},{"start":515.25,"end":542.561,"text":"因為我們當然有本國觀眾有我們那個量的部分有這是質的部分你本國觀眾的部分你也是用你所謂的執行的調查去做訪問嘛但你用這個10個人6個人然後你就說我的分數這麼高80分90分這個我覺得它的代表性跟參考價值喔董事長其實可能要再考量一下喔因為未來我看這個報告是每兩年都會做一次對不對我們現在是每年做一次每年做一次預算呢"},{"start":543.727,"end":545.417,"text":"預算就是由公司基金會多少錢 做這份"},{"start":549.688,"end":576.859,"text":"對 我們可以確認一下 因為我們公開招標的不管他多少錢 他都是公帑喔如果說你找個六個人來問一問然後就把這個分數打得很漂亮然後這個要拿來做參考性跟代表性喔我想啦 不只是本席其實不太能接受我想董事長跟部長 我覺得我們要再看一看既然做了 就是要做為將來繼續前進或者是改善的一個參考嘛但是如果代表性這麼低六個人 十個人然後把自己分數打那麼高 我覺得不太好"},{"start":577.699,"end":607.157,"text":"那再者还有一点这六个人是一个人怎么产生的好不好好再来我觉得更重要的是在营运效率调查当中本期看到一个关于我们这个公司员工对于公司营运有四大项包括运作透明度有效运用及开发资源还有人力资源的活化跟专业技能提升以及是不是有提供公平合理的劳动条件我想这边我就请这个董事长您整合看一下我们所有的这个满意度都是在下降的"},{"start":607.537,"end":627.372,"text":"但我們的不滿意度都是在上升的那這個整體的數字去看起來我們必須去聽一下我們相關我們的公司員工對於很多他們的反應的事項在這上面都有我想是不是董事長其實會後您必須去看一下這個數字不是只有拿數字來看而已而是要看這個數字我們去怎麼去解決好不好"},{"start":628.012,"end":655.595,"text":"有 謝謝 我們也都在專案的檢討這個部分我們需要努力最後再請趙薇兩分鐘我想部長一樣問一下華氏華氏您過去認為這個華氏定位在不公不明解決的方式公管集團要買回我們華氏的民股但是你看我們已經累計虧損的35億多了我也調閱了華氏近五年的決算我在這裡再請教一次這個部長您認為導致華氏年年虧損的最大原因是什麼"},{"start":656.755,"end":685.651,"text":"我覺得導致華視年年虧損的最大原因就是在單書把華視捐給公廣集團的時候它沒有配套而且做了一個非常對華視不利的決定就是它必須要自負盈虧可是它又要有公共廣播集團的品質好 沒有錯所以我想部長你上一年半的時間了你對華視其實最了解現在民股購回的進度是什麼"},{"start":686.636,"end":715.234,"text":"民股目前我们总共16.76%但是愿意卖的只有刚好三个大的公司大概只占10.06%还有99位股东没有表达要卖对于我们文化部来讲我们没有权利叫他卖所以这个是第一个问题就是他并没有全部都要卖第二个要买回的话要编列一笔很大的预算必须要立法院跟行政院支持我们买回"},{"start":716.295,"end":730.212,"text":"就這樣目前就遇到這個問題所以部長我這樣聽起來啦其實這個問題我們從上一屆討論到現在一模一樣的答案一模一樣所以這個問題是不是再往後多少年還是一樣交著在這個地方其實每年你覺得有解決的辦法嗎我覺得齁有解決辦法嗎"},{"start":735.8,"end":757.513,"text":"我必須講句實話二十年前我在接華視總經理的時候我就覺得這是一個非常錯誤的決定因為當時我必須跟銀行借了七八億來給每一個員工全部先提前拿到退休金所有的設計都是導致華視一步一步走向根本賺不回錢的狀況所以能解決嗎 你看"},{"start":758.553,"end":771.708,"text":"中間華氏董事會幾次的開會想要活化資產可是活化資產本身涉及到非常多利益馬上就會得到大家說你是要圖利誰圖利誰"},{"start":773.786,"end":792.304,"text":"屡次的提出各种方案都在原地打转那现在你问我的话我很想试试看有各种方式比如说我们想民股买回买回之后我们可不可以处理这个活化资产但这些都不是我们文化部可以解决因为它是一个董事会来决定的"},{"start":792.944,"end":818.648,"text":"所以您刚刚问我的问题我想最后这样子这个问题大家还是要去想想办法否则十年二十年后还是在这个地方那亏还是亏更多但是是不是要活化那应该怎么做那我们公司的董事及华氏的董事会已经进入实质的这个看守期了那我在想是不是新任的董事出来以后呢我们再来看看这个应该怎么做那也列为新任的董事的这个工作上一个重点项目这样好不好"},{"start":819.393,"end":834.215,"text":"非常好因為我也其實蠻期待一個新任的董事會成立之後面對我們整個公管集團每一個單位他都各自有一些要突破的東西我非常期待新任的董監事趕快成立非常好就大家一起加油是謝謝好謝謝萬美玲委員部長"}]}},{"id":"166269","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166269","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0fa2204731de13e6b9ecb9f93c172c55144a569ea12001d9791b1f0c7435980ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:48:47 - 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那個部長"},{"start":465.535,"end":469.822,"text":"行政院對於114版的財務法題負一被否決了財政部的下一步的步驟是什麼"},{"start":477.847,"end":485.951,"text":"你們是115年是按照我們3月12編的這個統籌8814億一般2500億計劃新年308億這個對吧沒有錯就是根據這個編現在等於願版已經卡住了立法願版已經卡住了那就是回到3月12通過的版本最後一個問題我又請"},{"start":508.393,"end":535.387,"text":"部長 你知道嗎 飯宮股持有國票金這個國務署長也在 市長也在已經超過打兩成了這個我們所知道的 現在是譬如說兆豐幾個飯宮股都要自己買我就問 是不是要落實公併私你們準備要掌握國票金的經營權有沒有這樣的意圖"},{"start":536.946,"end":550.601,"text":"有關經營權當然跟實力是有關係的要看你有多少的實力那公股去買這個有買這個國票金那當然是根據他們自己內部的一個財務的一些規劃那後續怎麼樣去處理後面的股權我想這個是後續他們會去做考量的"},{"start":557.268,"end":579.029,"text":"公股是也會去做考量沒有 如果你今天因為其他人這個持股大概不會超過10%換公股就20%當然要拿經營權啊 為什麼不要拿經營權呢你們已經買這麼多了 難道你要20%送給別人嗎送給張三 李四 王五 不通啊這裡面大家就會質疑喔"},{"start":579.77,"end":607.609,"text":"如果你不要拿經營權那就是你這樣的一個投資可能要圖利某一個團體圖利某一個集團變這個樣子喔我們不會圖利我們不會去圖利任何或者幫助他變成變成最大最大股東掌握經營權啊否則現在人家人家媒體就這樣報導我們是根據媒體的報導是你看持股亮澄問拿國票金的經營權結果現在"},{"start":610.031,"end":624.531,"text":"看起來好像不是 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我們看到的是你們的報告61頁寫未落實養殖比例頗高也就是說上面裝太陽能板爽爽的零補助底下根本沒有養什麼魚這你們的報告裡面有寫到第61頁所以假養殖增重電這在騙納稅人的錢騙補助的錢嘛"},{"start":282.561,"end":306.662,"text":"所以審計法17條你們發現有問題你們有沒有移送而且你們也該移送你們有沒有做到這也是我看到你們報告發現的第三個問題進來潮很兇的規避環評我看到很多案場是化整為零他把它切根成小的案場來規避環評然後導致國土破碎然後行政機關睜一隻眼閉一隻眼然後山野光電板 海野光電板到處亂七八糟"},{"start":307.963,"end":335.03,"text":"這個是重大績效的缺失那依據審計法58條你們有沒有實際去去查核呢 這也是我質疑的還有第四個 台電的部分台電不只整體虧損連台電自己跳下去做的綠能廠台中 金門 永安也都連續3年虧損這裡面資料也有所以政府告訴我們綠能好棒棒但是你們給我的資料是一塌糊塗那你們有做什麼嗎"},{"start":337.758,"end":357.706,"text":"陳議長我看到之前台南經發局長陳凱玲還有立揚這些弊案其實綠能的弊案滿天飛蔡總統臉書也開始在質疑這個點所以如果今天再來一個副審計長結果竟然是政務體系的那他來是幫政黨擦脂抹粉"},{"start":358.706,"end":371.808,"text":"我就會質疑這個的必要性在哪裡因為我要的是一個查帳的將軍並不是總統派來的一個政策的保姆來護航的那我們看李遠哲之前他曾經報一個料"},{"start":373.435,"end":397.974,"text":"因為我們最近那個蔡英文前總統不是說臉書發說希望這個綠能的強力速貪嗎那是不是就是承認了蔡總統過去綠能政策其實充滿了很多貪腐的錯誤那周恩院長他曾經爆過料他說他問他跟蔡英文討論這個淨零碳排的困境的時候蔡總統回他2024是下一代的事情那這不就表示這就不關我的事了所以沈院長"},{"start":399.062,"end":421.578,"text":"蔡總統走 但是你還在我們還是必須維持這個國家一個穩定 一個讓人民幸福的一個政策的走向很多時候 立法院鬧哄哄 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營業所得稅 綜合所得稅等各項稅收來貢獻會讓全民來共享共享你有沒有調心 因為低薪"},{"start":94.008,"end":116.294,"text":"第一些我們最近的這個最近這幾個月其實我們實質薪資的成長都超過我們的物價指數所以實質薪資都有成長那那麼你要是說真的沒有辦法調那你認為是不是要提前宣布延續今年花土花現金的政策是不是也是一個好的辦法"},{"start":117.641,"end":135.007,"text":"就是說普發現金當然是共享的模式之一但是同樣的錢如果我們有更大的效益也許在重大的投資方面會更有效益如果政府要把那個錢都是要去搞國防一萬兩千五百億那你認為"},{"start":141.44,"end":161.673,"text":"是不是如果政府做不到那你認為我不是說一萬兩千五百億做不到只不過是你都把它投資在國防上面今年已經變了九千四百九十五億另外賴總統又要增加一萬兩千五百億那我請問明年的所得稅貨物稅減輕的做法"},{"start":162.253,"end":171.767,"text":"美化成經濟果實的共享但卻看得到吃不到啦在這種低薪的環境裡是不是更噁心多數民眾的爛招嗎"},{"start":174.767,"end":191.825,"text":"當然國防是一定是要先有一個有一個安全的環境我們各項的不管經濟等等才能發展因為你這樣子讓人家感覺是不是更噁心因為這種變成一個爛招你想經濟成長很高沒有錯實際上"},{"start":194.281,"end":208.18,"text":"人民有享受到嗎 沒有啊對不對 主席長 副主席長沒講到普派現金政府官員只會對在野黨明帶 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部長好因為今天召委排的這個時程所以我們昨天開了一個公式的預備會議既然開了預備會議也表示要開始審查那事實上我們從過去就一直在問它是在5月就應該出來也是說去年的這個時候就應該有名單出來請問現在卡關在什麼地方"},{"start":38.949,"end":54.937,"text":"跟委員報告我們在去年11月就開始啟動這個下一屆這個委員的政選那這個我們有公文可以作證然後從去年11月開始啟動到現在中間所遇到的問題在上一次"},{"start":55.737,"end":78.804,"text":"好 你都回答過了所以現在目前進度怎麼樣你上次說找不到人現在又是在準備中那現在到底是怎麼樣告訴委員好消息昨天我們剛剛開過一個預備會議那就表示說我們已經開始可以往下進行審議了好 到什麼時候董監事名單都可以出來包括董事長名單其實我們就等下一波要開始審議的時候什麼時候看審議會什麼時候開"},{"start":83.086,"end":99.246,"text":"审议会什么时候开名单其实我们当然是随时准备好那审议会这已经有了嘛董事长还有这些所有的名单里面都已经有附案了嘛行政院也应该知道吧甚至总统也都已经知道了嘛如果我们启动这个如果我们启动这个审查委员的预备会议的话就表示我们差不多了"},{"start":99.767,"end":116.642,"text":"对 因为已经很久了我觉得你们这样难产其实压缩到很多的时间我们这样生生逼迫你们就可以必须要深深地改这些都是不符合法规的所以说部长还是要注意一下我们其实下次我在站在这个台上互相面对面的时候已经有名单出现了 好不好"},{"start":117.062,"end":136.314,"text":"我们情绪就有时间出现了好 接下来我们今天谈这个公广因为公媒的这个你当过华社的总经理你问英国非常多了而且被称为最懂公共媒体的这个文化部长那我想请问这个部长你上任这么久来你对于文化部所辖的公共媒体的表现你个人满意吗"},{"start":136.994,"end":152.09,"text":"我觉得从1998年开始部长我们不要从盘古开天好不好你满不满意不是你满不满意好像没有办法yes no我觉得刚刚听到各位各位在场都听到我们的媒体所以你算是满意的就对了我觉得我算满意"},{"start":152.25,"end":171.715,"text":"你算滿意但是還有很多問題從你任內開始從當華視總經理到現在你都已經變成了文化部長了很多問題還是沒有解決我還是要再問一次因為華視自從公共化累積虧損是35到40以前我就教育你的時候你都已經講出它有天生的一個宿命但是你看財務狀況沒有改沒有"},{"start":172.975,"end":201.111,"text":"改善了亏损2.4到3亿啊然后我可以看出我调列出这个部分来如果你没有这个大陆的租赁的话一年的收入可以有3.5亿的话你恐怕一年就要亏损达到6亿这没有错吧好那我们就来看一下啊华氏因为经营不善亏损连连哦现金流量不够据说在11月的时候又跟华南银行增加借款3亿元嘛所以说呢目前执押借款华氏光复大陆已经超过40亿了"},{"start":201.451,"end":217.157,"text":"所以部長你知道嗎很多人說這個華視的光復大樓現在已經改名變成華銀光復大樓了已經跟他借了40億在那個地方最有趣的是你賴以為生的這個金雞母你竟然被貼上了建築物公共安全展不合格的場所部長你知道哪裡不合格嗎你們在門口被貼上這個我因為我們基於文化部沒有去干預這個公共媒體我還沒有看到你已經被貼上了這個不合格你們的金雞母被貼上不合格他貼在華視我沒有看到"},{"start":231.791,"end":258.114,"text":"現在就已經貼在那個地方我跟部長報告一下為什麼我會關注這樣的問題因為建管處跟消防局已經多次來做檢查然後你們都不符合的標準因為你們很多內部你們所租借的房客裡面非常多的裝修跟原大陸的設計不符合而且消防安檢也因為設計狀況也不符合規定所以建管處還有消防局已經多次的來做這個部分裡面不見改善所以就給你貼上了這樣的一個標示"},{"start":259.375,"end":276.211,"text":"我为什么要提出这个问题呢因为香港的洪福院已经发生这么个状况你里面有这么多的承包的这个部分你现在发生这样的状况让人家感觉里面就只是要租然后赚的钱然后也不管你家里面的安全设备华氏会不会变成一个黑心房东啊"},{"start":277.368,"end":294.308,"text":"這個聽起來好像有點蠻嚴重的是不是請那個董事長來報告因為這點我還真的不太知道所以說你完全不顧別人那個安全而且我據說因為你們如果真的要來做一個更新的話可能要花上上千萬所以一拖再拖一拖再拖拖到被人家貼上這樣一個標示"},{"start":295.549,"end":314.579,"text":"跟委員報告就我了解它是有兩個租戶那我們有非常多的租戶那他們在做室內裝潢的時候沒有向政府做申請所以現在東西在改善目前狀況應該很快我看到什麼時候會經過這個部分把它拿下來因為這個正是它是你的經濟目你沒有所以說呢這個"},{"start":315.68,"end":333.28,"text":"所以到底华氏未来是要买回民股还是要做商业化我不晓得你们有什么样的想法因为已经被折磨了20年了每年在亏好像都不太怕因为你们可以把你们的经纪母拿出外面借即使它安检不通过而且最主要是很多人认为它是一个黄金地段"},{"start":333.78,"end":350.243,"text":"所以说呢你只要到时候以资产把它活化处理掉到时候来出售这个部分利益是非常的惊人我们也不希望达到这个程度可是华氏的问题没有办法解决部长你都当过总经理你都对他有一份的情感你可不可以终止华氏被折磨20年的噩梦啊"},{"start":353.042,"end":365.39,"text":"關於華視的問題包括我們每次提到不同的議題譬如說民股買回或者資產活化因為它涉及到很多這種法律上的問題你說它被折磨20年"},{"start":366.67,"end":385.671,"text":"我本來以為就在我那個時候要結束了它能夠拖20年你可以想像作為一個政府機關大家想盡辦法在不同的時候撥預算給它還是沒有辦法解決所以沒有辦法解決我的意思就是說你都已經當過你非常清楚裡面的生態你都沒有辦法解決我們真的不用期待下面的人可以解決"},{"start":386.232,"end":411.087,"text":"他就会是一直是质询台上面大家拿出来的问的一个问题好不好显然目前为止我没有得到我希望的一个答案我们马上进入下一个有关台湾plus的部分因为台湾plus有没有达到节目第一年新播率的25%的一个承诺因为NCC曾经表示你们需要如此可是我们看你们的年报去年台湾plus还有1029小时今年直播的时数"},{"start":411.787,"end":421.607,"text":"比去年还要低只有975小时所以说你告诉我你要逐年你们报告里面所写的要在逐年提升自治产量为目标显然没有嘛"},{"start":423.134,"end":441.893,"text":"而且呢我这样看一下你们公开资讯如果这样子一年975小时然后呢这样的算法的话几乎每天的新制的节目大概只有2.67小时一般我们来说的话黄金我们看电视的时间大概4个小时左右你一天只有2.67完全是不符合标准的来部长"},{"start":442.694,"end":460.959,"text":"而且我们一年还是花了8亿其实跟委员报告这的确是但是委员应该也了解当我们的预算被砍多少的时候我们节目就没有能力做多少一年8亿没有办法产出这么多吗减少2亿多的话节目真的少很多其实我们台湾Plus预算是被砍非常多的"},{"start":461.559,"end":482.655,"text":"台湾plus被砍非常多就是因为大家从数字来说它没有办法包括它的点播率等等还有包括不管是台湾plus还有包括你的客家台台语台很多的新节目的比例都达不到我们所说的一个标准那我上次已经特别质询过了我到目前为止我们看了一下这个月没有呈现一个结果"},{"start":483.075,"end":498.309,"text":"所以呢这才是为什么这就是环环相扣的嘛当你的绩效达不到的时候我们在预算上当然就会有一些的表示然后呢你没有办法提出一些方式的话那当然是你就没有办法得到吧这就是环环相扣的嘛你总要告诉我们一个解决的一个方式嘛对不对"},{"start":498.729,"end":512.745,"text":"我们的时间实在太短了但是呢目前来说你也你有没有办法公开承诺可以让你的自居率达到25%甚至更高不要目前远远都是停播在重播这个到预算的时候还是会问到这样的问题啊"},{"start":513.646,"end":529.62,"text":"而且这本来就是NCC本来就讲嘛本来就要达到25这是法定上规定的嘛你们没有办法达到然后又说我们这个所谓的预算不够这个东西你该怎么解决我们还是无解啊部长你制作节目出身的你应该很清楚这个问题啊"},{"start":530.97,"end":557.148,"text":"就是因为我做过节目所以随着现在那种节目的费用越来越贵只要在立法院被砍砍到一两亿所以说你告诉我如果说我的立法院的这个费用不砍的话你可以承诺到25到30我觉得差太多了因为你如果一两亿给我们的话那个节目的制作量真的多很多这点是非常现实的不能够因为我们没有达到你就继续砍我们的预算继续砍我们的预算我们就恶性循环"},{"start":557.628,"end":581.281,"text":"没有台湾plus砍预算原因不是只有在于你们制作不到25%它还有非常多等一下还是有很多委员会根据这个部分来做一个部分所以这个东西的这个到底是谁是因谁是果我觉得部长带回去包括我刚刚所提到的华氏到目前为止的台湾plus我都没有得到一个很满意的一个答复最后我只问一个对不起那个赵伟啊"},{"start":581.801,"end":596.051,"text":"目前为止台湾plus过去内容都是伪制而且大概就用一文采购的名义完全是规避了政府采购法所规则的公开范围我只问部长你知道台湾plus进入公广集团之后内容伪制有几件是公开招标的吗"},{"start":597.253,"end":619.664,"text":"这我不太清楚耶一件只有一件所以说呢你完全是用这样的一个方式所以就这样的方式到底会不会造成一些所谓有一些的违规违法的目前的一个状况是否都是采用这样的一文采购而且你们完全是用这个完全是规避这个有没有违法有没有来集合我都希望根据内部的一个方式"},{"start":620.484,"end":641.042,"text":"台灣plus也有被來做這個審核有沒有違法到底後續的一個處理狀況怎麼樣我今天在質詢台上沒有辦法時間的關係但是我需要你給我一個非常完整的素面報告因為這些都是我們所看到的一個問題而且有非常多人跟我們來做這樣的澄清跟舉報我不要在這邊公開說但請給我一個完整的一個報告可以嗎可以沒問題好謝謝好謝謝柯子文委員官員請回座"}]}},{"id":"166258","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166258","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0d9f2366e0f6eee09a68b3568d601d3dce95b9c653acd4d720d8c7324e0a01dc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:15:50 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謝謝主席 麻煩有請沈記長請沈記長委員好沈記長好 沈記部很辛苦同仁很認真 這個我都知道因此這一次提出有關於沈記部的組織法希望能夠提根關等讓你們沈記部的同仁不會被其他機關挖走"},{"start":33.723,"end":54.345,"text":"上面的路會比較順一點基本上面的方向我是覺得值得討論不過我要說的是你今天也看得到考試院全序部跟人事總署對你們提出來的修法意見很多書面報告我就出來了那是不是審計部不得人緣"},{"start":56.018,"end":76.25,"text":"得罪太多人有關係啊我不要去揣測啦但考試院看了也不爽行政院看了也不爽你要通過這個修法 沈記長要多努力啦我只有對一個政務副沈記長我在這邊公開表達反對沈記長是立法院行使同意權通過的"},{"start":82.921,"end":105.798,"text":"法務部部長是著龍太愛找誰就找誰副審計長跟一般的次長是沒有辦法相比擬的為什麼 因為審計長是立法院通過部長隨時可以換 次長酬庸的一堆啦我們現在看各個部會 次長酬庸的一堆 看了就知道"},{"start":106.758,"end":131.929,"text":"你現在 偵涉一個政務的副審計長你不怕人家空降來監軍啊叫你審計部乖一點啊審計報告不要亂寫啊不要一天到晚指出行政機關的缺失啊你不擔心這件事嗎立法院沒有通過欸塞一個政務副審計長給你欸一天到晚在你旁邊看著啊"},{"start":132.918,"end":160.191,"text":"叫你們寫審計報告要小心一點你都不會擔心喔一點政治敏感度都沒有啊口口阿祖 口口阿祖一點政治敏感度都沒有啊 審計長我為什麼跟你說政治敏感度很重要我支持你們審計部做我的專業審查報告但問題是什麼你知不知道你們審計部的報告被賴政府當空氣你知不知道審計長你知道嗎"},{"start":161.372,"end":182.756,"text":"一般我們如果有審查意見我們會追蹤國會追蹤國來來來我直接帶你看我講話像有憑有據監察院彈劾審計部認定超思雞蛋的弊案農業部前市長浪費公帑五億兩千九百九十七萬監察院彈劾了審計部也認定"},{"start":190.08,"end":207.688,"text":"我後面啊 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錢什麼時候要回來給皮皮啦"},{"start":405.356,"end":431.358,"text":"第一次 尋答的時候 洪森漢說我們一定會去追後來呢 沒笑沒信不敢去追解決的方法是什麼我們再拿納稅的錢編公務預算然後編回去就業安定基金所以我就說嘛 你做了有什麼用你被人家當空氣啊被人家當笑話啊"},{"start":433.424,"end":460.28,"text":"啊你如果這樣子 審計部還不硬起來我再說一次啊我今天在這邊質詢 我心很痛我是在幫審計部講話審計部專業的審計人員查帳 查了一堆出來然後呢上一次人事同意權的時候我們八票都支持你我們台灣民眾黨的支持者每個都說讚"},{"start":462.489,"end":487.765,"text":"就事論事 提好的人選 我們就同意因為你們有做事嘛謝謝但問題是什麼 做了事以後被行政院當空氣 被賴政府當空氣這個不會 因為這兩個 這剛剛講的兩個案啦第一個我們都有移送檢調第二個我們都有移送檢查案第三個我們都有做財務收支處理我直接跟沈記長講啦 我叫農業部啊"},{"start":490.495,"end":518.372,"text":"去跟那個被彈劾的張經緯求償啊結果農業部部長就不肯啊他撐著啊怎麼可以跟他求償跟他求償到時候把所有的事情抖出來那還得了喔千年甚廣啊這麼多錢他一個人吃得下來喔來 第二個案子就業安定基金剛剛我就講了啦你們就業安定基金再回去重新看一下真的被人家當空氣啊"},{"start":519.622,"end":541.819,"text":"你們被當空氣我老實講還是小事啊納稅人的錢被這樣胡搞瞎搞才是大事啊來花蓮艷澀湖一流期間環境部主責的官員跟廠商出訪歐洲考察這個案子有沒有查這案子目前沒有去查我今天直接跟沈記長檢舉啊他拿錢"},{"start":545.604,"end":574.18,"text":"說要去歐洲考察結果發生了什麼事情發生了這一筆錢從哪裡支的我預算書找不到結果呢結果用假的派員出國計畫編預算要派員出國沒有派員出國啊沒有派公務員出國啊錢拿來什麼挪用挪用什麼挪用署長帶廠商出去玩可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":575.643,"end":588.447,"text":"可以這樣幹嗎 沈記長這個我們要查了以後做一個向委員報告好 我順便再跟你講更離譜的事情是什麼陪他出去玩的廠商在他任內拿到的標案金額高達快三千萬不必嫌到這種程度"},{"start":602.045,"end":631.44,"text":"我跟你說你聽到沒有 知道 我是署長啊在我任內這個廠商啊我用限制性招標標案金額拿了三千萬什麼是限制性招標 沈紀長應該很熟嘛 知道要篩選過的啦我認可的啦 你才能來投啦給他三千萬的限制性招標挪用公務預算 要派員出國的錢署長自己跑去歐洲玩 還帶他一起去"},{"start":633.135,"end":651.474,"text":"臭不可聞啊 沈紀長 是承不承諾徹查到底 徹查需要多久 一個月內好 一個月內 我等你一個月啊我等你一個月啊 那我希望啦不要一個月出來了以後你的報告又被人家當空氣啊我們都會追蹤 好 OK好 謝謝黃國昌"}]}},{"id":"166268","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166268","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0d8c801aff430e3daa68b3568d601d3dce95b9c653acd4d7228b9a2276f57a04d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:49:55 - 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沈記長你好其實你任這段時間我還是蠻肯定你的就是要"},{"start":32.944,"end":51.039,"text":"這個公平公正客觀而且要獨立那個我想審計部的官網自己寫到審計權能否發揮應有之功能其超然獨立之特性最重要的條件是最重要的條件此外審計法第十條規定審計人員要依法獨立行使其審計"},{"start":56.864,"end":83.522,"text":"的職權不受干擾那政務官任命受到政治力的影響這個政治高層可能下達政策的指導其恐怕影響整個審計獨立的公正性那我請問審計長對您而言追求審計獨立不受政治操弄您覺得是不是審計部必須要先捍衛他的整個核心價值"},{"start":84.122,"end":86.846,"text":"謝謝委員 這是我們的核心價值我們的核心價值就是獨立 專業 廉政 創新這是我們一直掛在我們牆上的四個核心價值這個我非常認同 那個陳記長"},{"start":99.964,"end":101.065,"text":"本席是不反對 但是今天"},{"start":123.398,"end":147.558,"text":"這個審計部組織法修法想要增設政務官的副審計長來協助審計長來加速於全面拓展數位審計本席認為說如果政務的副審計長獨立性與公平性已經被外界質疑在沒有獲得朝野立委普遍支持前本席認為審計部"},{"start":149.5,"end":171.465,"text":"要好好的想一下如果是增加常務的副審計長我們真的是可以討論那如果需要數位專長意見難道不能跨部會合作由數位發展部與審計部共同合作來推動數位審計嗎你的看法呢"},{"start":172.301,"end":172.321,"text":"那個 陳記長"},{"start":193.482,"end":204.538,"text":"因為眾所周知 政務官政治任命今天草案希望能夠增加政務的副審計長立法院法治局也建議政務的副審計長提請這個"},{"start":209.249,"end":220.965,"text":"任命的方式依法治上為不同設計立法院法治局建議為避免審計長之獨立性遭架空政府審計長不僅需據"},{"start":224.289,"end":227.17,"text":"那我請問沈記長你是否認同立法院法治局的這種建議認同"},{"start":247.737,"end":255.702,"text":"因為政府我們也希望維持 大家都有一些疑慮我們希望我們的條件 任用諸葛的條件能夠維持我們的獨立還有專業如果能夠把這個問題 大家所疑慮的強化對我們損失也是一大助力"},{"start":272.714,"end":299.849,"text":"所以我同意委員的意思其實事務的副審計長本席是認同你要是政務的話上面指派我認為這個事會有所偏差如果今天在政府想像找對象像中選會前主委李靖勇一樣長久以來就是民進黨黨員政治色彩背景濃厚的數位"},{"start":300.749,"end":318.081,"text":"專才為了要擔任政務副審計長才宣布說退黨轉成無黨籍那本席認為這樣的人選並不適合其超難獨立性令人質疑那我請問審計長你覺得修法要如何避免上述這種情況的發生"},{"start":319.562,"end":326.625,"text":"我們委員因為很多的委員都有這種疑慮我們一定政務這一塊我們原則上我們會強化他的專業和獨立如果會影響專業和獨立我同意如果沒辦法達成這個目標我同意就徵受我們還是維持常務"},{"start":342.552,"end":351.489,"text":"但是中央機關組織基準法是兩個政務一個常務但是我們是盡量來配合中央機關組織基準法"},{"start":353.17,"end":371.689,"text":"我是認為你向媒體報導中油關塘接收站三接外推方案黃波堤興建工程涉及湖報工程預算內容爆料該黃波堤工程原來的預算差不多只有94億在短短期間內"},{"start":373.951,"end":392.07,"text":"經歷過4次的加價最終飆到253億過去中油公司的員工這個勾結廠商不時的核銷侵吞公款 遭監察院提出糾正案可見中油內控制度以及員工法制的教育均有不足"},{"start":394.532,"end":410.503,"text":"請問陳審計長你是否會專業勾肌整個中油三接的工程究竟到底有沒有福報工程預算你們會不會深入了解因為社會上對這一個昏昏繞繞我們本來是事不後有損記看他的成果"},{"start":411.463,"end":418.191,"text":"但是昏昏繞繞的時候這個我已經比剪掉還早派人已經進到因為有財務問題有採購問題所以這個我派了我的審計官帶隊最起碼你要給社會有一個交代說確實你們有在做事好不好謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"166267","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166267","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c00bc38e024c89520bff56a78bd28eb122e95b9c653acd4d72a61de74c1b237c8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:41:29 - 09:53:20","影片長度":"00:11:51","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T09:41:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T09:53:20+08:00","duration":711,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.23346875,"end":1.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.67909375,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.395968750000002,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.497218750000002,"end":13.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.53096875,"end":14.340968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.69909375,"end":18.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.89721875,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.035968750000002,"end":23.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.38159375,"end":32.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.66721875,"end":42.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.353468750000005,"end":42.994718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.180343750000006,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.86346875,"end":66.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.40034375,"end":88.69221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.16471875,"end":92.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.06284375,"end":115.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.69221875000001,"end":119.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.74659375,"end":127.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.14596875,"end":147.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.10909375,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.90909375,"end":208.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.89284375000003,"end":209.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.68159375000002,"end":217.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.72346875000002,"end":212.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.02721875,"end":213.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.31346875000003,"end":240.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.69784375,"end":244.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.43159375000002,"end":251.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.56971875000002,"end":254.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.20221875000001,"end":269.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.28846875,"end":269.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.55846875000003,"end":269.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.59221875000003,"end":269.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.65971875,"end":316.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.19409375000004,"end":279.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.19284375,"end":315.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.15034375000005,"end":324.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.06159375000004,"end":317.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.34346875,"end":408.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.00596875,"end":349.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.37284375,"end":405.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.50284375,"end":433.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.86784375,"end":423.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.50784375,"end":444.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.30471875,"end":436.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.85596875000005,"end":508.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.71909375,"end":457.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.59284375000004,"end":515.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.10221875,"end":540.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.55409375,"end":546.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.03846875,"end":551.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.6072187500001,"end":556.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.6865937499999,"end":563.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.65596875,"end":585.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.7490937499999,"end":589.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.6940937500001,"end":609.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.24159375,"end":597.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.9753437500001,"end":599.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.5615937499999,"end":601.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.3840937500001,"end":603.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.92784375,"end":607.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.9484687500001,"end":624.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.7265937500001,"end":631.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.94471875,"end":644.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.10346875,"end":649.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.08971875,"e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林月請林委員主席我們請衛福部部長林委員早"},{"start":19.185,"end":35.18,"text":"部長早 還有我們在我們的場外的 或者是在外邊觀看這場詢答的我們的身障朋友們 大家好也很感謝今天未完委員會"},{"start":36.281,"end":57.583,"text":"能够邀请我们的听打跟手语员来服务让我们所有的身障朋友可以透过这样子的询答了解我们大爷针对于卫福部到底做的一些相关的一个事项那部长我相信上周上礼拜跟身障团体的会面让你知道了他们的迫切性我在这边也要感谢你"},{"start":58.984,"end":77.477,"text":"當時我跟你講說是不是可以跟他們見面那部長也馬上能夠答應來跟他們好好的去做溝通那我希望把這樣子的一個溝通管道建立之後這個管道可能未來希望能夠是保持順暢的不過當初促成這樣子的溝通就沒有他的"},{"start":78.398,"end":92.37,"text":"實質意義在了那部長我們的身權法號第50條本來就明定政府應該提供身心障礙者個人所需的自立生活那我想問部長自立生活的定義跟內涵是什麼"},{"start":93.526,"end":114.419,"text":"這個在我們的這個身心障礙者個人照顧服務辦法裡面有名詞定義那麼就是讓他能夠在社區裡面那麼依照他的自由的意志選擇那麼得到必要的這個協助那麼可以在不論是在他的生活或社區參與"},{"start":115.78,"end":138.982,"text":"或者是这个就业就学方面得到支持是 部长为何我会要这样子问因为我发现我们的政策没有符合自立生活的内涵根据身权公约跟提示刑法或者是我们的身障权法都明白的只是自立生活应该要自我选择"},{"start":139.642,"end":157.125,"text":"自我決定自我負責的精神是最高指導原則目前執行的都有違背相關法令跟精神的亂象導致諸多的困擾問題層出不窮甚至反而造成使用不便或乾脆不用的情形部長你知道這個狀況嗎"},{"start":159.502,"end":180.59,"text":"我們大概初步的首先要很謝謝委員在上個禮拜的活動裡面來替我們牽這個線建立這個對話的平台讓我們能夠更進一步的從一個小時的對話能夠更進一步的理解到剛剛委員特別在垂詢的"},{"start":181.57,"end":209.188,"text":"这个执行跟需求者之间的落差那当然这里有一大块是说我们目前有两个系统一个是长照服务法的系统一个就是这个个人助理的这个服务的系统中间那么如何让他merge让他衔接合用让他更能够弹性的运用这部分是我们接下来应该要优先去解决的问题可是"},{"start":211.29,"end":233.832,"text":"首先我们就来看这样的概念措置就造成了很大的问题复杂跟僵化的申请程序为什么这样讲对于身心障碍者使用者来讲他们在乎的是制度跟相关服务的可进性跟可负担性这也是我们申请公约强调的一个重点"},{"start":234.553,"end":240.414,"text":"他們先天事實上就是有缺陷行動上不方便當他們要申請資源的時候必須要"},{"start":242.896,"end":269.393,"text":"從頭去跑流程可是這四項就已經是如果我今天要用個人助理我要用長照居家服務然後我要用職長助理光這三套我可能就要花一些力氣去了解這三套的程序是什麼不但是浪費時間那你這資源建置也是浪費所以部長能不能整合成一個窗口簡化申請程序"},{"start":269.993,"end":296.293,"text":"跟委員報告這個有它的背景存在因為在身障者的照顧的部分過去都是在身權法然後從社福的預算在支持那麼長照服務呢這個是過去這近10年才發展出來的事情那麼特別是在2017 106年開始推動長照2.0之後才快速的提升這個服務的照顧範圍跟項目"},{"start":297.914,"end":324.72,"text":"然後他訂定的是朝向以支付標準的概念給付標準的概念去訂定所以跟我們過去在身障者服務用計劃型或者是社福的申請制度的方式有一點點不一致所以我們現在也在嘗試的看看能不能把這兩個系統我覺得要去考慮整合 否則的話"},{"start":325.64,"end":348.185,"text":"坦白講那不是在懲罰使用者嗎尤其這也是身上朋友提出來的像個人助理跟自立方案那從我覺得從很多書看到甚至他們跟我反映的就是有非常多的一個限制像台南嘉義要求服務必須提前數天甚至一個月前就要申請"},{"start":349.105,"end":377.038,"text":"可是我有時候臨時要就醫或者是我突然要出門要去處理一些事情的話他直接就被拒絕那高雄有使用者呢核定91小時卻被切成不同用途無法挪用那屏東甚至出現要求障礙者一定要一起做什麼叫一起做一起摺衣服一起倒垃圾一起做這個那才算是協助的那個荒謬的一些標準戰我覺得像表面上資源非常齊全"},{"start":377.938,"end":397.814,"text":"實際上在執行的時候非常的僵化讓身障者在不同的體系兼卡關所以這是地方政府在執行的時候有非常多荒謬的做法讓他們很難自立也很難生活部長你認為這樣的制度下身障朋友真的有選擇權嗎他連時數今年給60小時我明年一樣要60小時給我結果你給我砍到12小時"},{"start":399.415,"end":418.411,"text":"我的需求還是存在為什麼砍這樣子然後沒有更好的說明所以想申請個人助理卻被僵化的制度卡住的時候怎麼辦跟委員說明就如同我剛剛提到因為長照的服務體系它是由中央訂定的一致性的給付條件跟標準"},{"start":419.091,"end":441.327,"text":"那麼個人助理的部分主要來自於地方政府的審查申請那我們來看看怎麼從中央透過這個授權辦法訂定一致性的作業首先先把申請程序先是不是統一否則讓大家去理解各種不同系統的界面要去做申請的時候"},{"start":441.947,"end":456.063,"text":"坦白講事實上是非常的困難那對身上朋友來講的話長照當然是目前使用最多的使用人數近24萬可是長照的目標跟自立生活的目標上是不太"},{"start":456.764,"end":472.871,"text":"一樣的那相較個人助理整個用才1326人使用因為目前也只有733個擱住因為你的報告裡面就有去呈現那身心障礙者因個人助理支援就是因為長期不足所以你看為什麼用的這麼少的人只有1326人"},{"start":474.151,"end":502.287,"text":"因为你的各住的人数也不多而且核定时数我刚才前面讲各地方政府的时候核定时数就会有一些很不一致的地方那实际上就会难以支撑他们的自己生活他们只好去被迫使用我们高龄私能者设计的核心的一个长照服务然后长照的服务是在众照顾不是事实上是支持所以不仅服务内容不符合我们的实际需求"},{"start":502.907,"end":522.038,"text":"也侵蝕了身障者的自我決定權形成制度挫制跟我們的權益讓身障朋友的權益受損的一個問題在所以想問部長像這樣的情形最後他只能被動接受長照服務而沒辦法真正的主導生活"},{"start":522.758,"end":551.866,"text":"衛福部是不是可以思考這兩病怎麼去結合不是讓障礙者瘦瘦瘦困可是我們他希望他自立他也不希望造成家人的一個負擔可是我們的整個制度都沒有辦法讓他真的是回到自立的那個面向去部長這邊可以做到嗎我們認同這個委員所指教的方向我們朝這個方向來努力好 謝謝部長剛剛你的報告裡面也講說我們的歧視"},{"start":552.628,"end":568.461,"text":"从陈俊翰受到中国网红的那样的歧视言论我们就一直认为这个歧视要去解决可是你刚刚讲说未来也有反歧视法何时否则的话现在歧视的问题还是在"},{"start":569.682,"end":585.255,"text":"就像最近的那個初一鐵板燒因為一名使用電動代步車的健動患者要跟朋友用餐而金杯餐廳要求三個人要付四個人的低銷理由是代步車呢站位引發社會的評論部長這算不算一種歧視"},{"start":588.826,"end":604.783,"text":"这个是据我的了解只是这个餐厅好像是要求这个三个人要付四个人付两个位置因为他的轮椅比较占空间所以要两个位置我们觉得这个是不妥的"},{"start":605.703,"end":631.762,"text":"所以看起来这件事也也提醒我们明明政府提供各种人力资源跟公共资源可能是因为制度跟空间设计的限制有时候身障者连进到餐厅都有困难了更快进去了就还被用这样子的方法来对待所以最后这家餐厅愿意退费如果不愿意退费要收四个人钱部长我们可以去处理吗"},{"start":633.035,"end":649.402,"text":"我想現行的法規用消把法就可以處理了所以我們會依請這個如果這個所在地是台北市的話會請台北市政府所以我們希望政府能夠確保我們的公共服務跟餐飲場所所提供的資源要能夠真正被"},{"start":650.188,"end":666.652,"text":"身障者使用智力要涵蓋友善環境交通也好場域也好甚至其他人的對待那我還是希望所謂的反歧視還是要放在生權法裡面不能等反歧視法因為我們不知道等到"},{"start":667.152,"end":671.475,"text":"什么时候最后大家三大诉求希望你这边能够建立单一的窗口"},{"start":697.092,"end":710.389,"text":"在寒冷的天氣在那裡葉樹我覺得每一個人看了都會覺得非常心疼我們完全支持委員這三個訴求的方向我們朝這個方向來努力好 謝謝部長好"}]}},{"id":"166266","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166266","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0a5b74495f6bb9d28ff56a78bd28eb122e95b9c653acd4d722d37d3f517c779ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:28:35 - 09:40:51","影片長度":"00:12:16","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T09:28:35+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T09:40:51+08:00","duration":736,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.654718750000001,"end":6.443468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.09721875,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.36284375,"end":10.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.73784375,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.244093750000001,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.58034375,"end":24.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.97221875,"end":27.452843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.22909375,"end":36.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.41346875,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.46784375,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.88846875,"end":48.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.681593750000005,"end":51.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.46596875,"end":65.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.072218750000005,"end":61.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.77221875,"end":99.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.12596875,"end":67.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.47534375000001,"end":101.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.90534375,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.37784375000001,"end":104.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.89659375000001,"end":105.73596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.63471875,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.48909375000001,"end":120.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.16409375,"end":141.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.29471875,"end":121.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.86346875000001,"end":127.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.19221875,"end":129.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.78284375,"end":130.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.53784375,"end":132.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.28721875000002,"end":150.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.19346875000002,"end":170.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.05596875,"end":164.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.10221875000002,"end":165.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.99596875,"end":182.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.07534375,"end":175.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.76284375,"end":177.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.02409375000002,"end":179.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.78721875000002,"end":187.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.18721875,"end":210.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.14409375000002,"end":194.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.90721875,"end":199.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.22596875000002,"end":212.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.86721875,"end":223.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.54471875000002,"end":227.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.80971875,"end":235.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.15471875000003,"end":242.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.62596875000003,"end":255.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.28659375,"end":254.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.24846875000003,"end":270.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.35784375000003,"end":259.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.69471875,"end":262.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.48346875000004,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.73971875,"end":289.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.40346875,"end":300.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.75221875,"end":299.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.57471875000005,"end":319.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.47471875,"end":343.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.13346875,"end":343.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.63971875000004,"end":348.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.65659375,"end":343.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.46659375,"end":345.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.20471875000004,"end":358.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.65096875,"end":352.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.81971875000005,"end":353.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.74284375,"end":358.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.46846875,"end":380.51159375000003},{"speaker":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有請石部長來 請部長 謝謝副長長部長 我想請教您還有社家署州署長你們兩位認為自己了解身障者嗎 身心障礙者嗎你們認為你們了解嗎 你們是專家嗎"},{"start":28.577,"end":50.674,"text":"不敢說是專家但是身為這個生權法的主管機關我們盡我們的能力來瞭解身障者的需求我問這個問題是因為CRPD一直強調的就是在投影片也有Nothing about us without us部長知道這句話嗎部長這句話的意思是什麼 您知道嗎"},{"start":51.999,"end":79.042,"text":"就是說所有在制定相關的制度的時候呢那麼應該要有身障者的參與讓他們沒有他們的參與呢這些政策更白話的講就是說如果沒有我們的加入請不要幫我們做決定這句話已經存在20年了在至少但是這句話到政府我覺得一直是沒有注意到或是沒有尊重障礙者的意見跟想法經常還是找專家學者"},{"start":79.542,"end":101.645,"text":"我們台灣的收視鏡好找專家學者來做決定忽略了障礙者才是最清楚他真正的處境他就是真正的專家障礙者本身那請問部長你們送到行政院的這個身權法草案剛剛你有稍微提到說提高席次但是我要再跟您確認您有沒有規定身障者在委員會的要有過半的席次呢"},{"start":103.427,"end":118.799,"text":"我們現在的推動小組的版本目前當然目前來講是差不多是佔四分之一未來我們的行政院版本我們現在希望把它提高就是身心障礙者代表及身障者合計的"},{"start":119.6,"end":141.5,"text":"人數能夠過半我想要提醒你一下就是說有些機構跟團體代表並不代表他們的結構成員結構就是殘障者障礙者那你了解這件事嗎我了解所以我們談的所謂的過半甚至有人提到四分之一或更高我們談的是本身本人障礙者本人的加入那如果你沒有把他們放進去"},{"start":142.381,"end":169.927,"text":"部長你是會認為他們沒有表達的能力嗎沒有表達參與的這個決策能力嗎不會 我們現在建議的方式是以身障者跟身障者代表因為身障者代表當然就是由身障者所推出來的代言人他們一定是能夠代表他們身障者的意識來行使所以身障者代表跟身障者那麼超過這些委員會中過半我們是支持的"},{"start":170.867,"end":186.437,"text":"我們現在的精神就已經到說就是說以障礙者為主就不說他的代表因為現在的精神就一直要往前推進雖然你剛剛有稍微報告我還是再請教你您有把明文把這個未來的版本把個人助理服務寫進法條嗎"},{"start":188.5,"end":213.874,"text":"在我们的这个身权法第五十条的第九项第九款就已经纳入了自立生活服务因为个人助理服务只是自立生活服务中的一环因为在我们的这个身心障碍者个人服务办法里面就有第九章专门在谈自立生活服务那么自立生活服务里面已经有个人助理"},{"start":214.474,"end":241.862,"text":"因為他不限於個人自立生活服務不等於個人助理他只是這個自立生活服務裡面的一個服務的選項那我再請教你您就所謂自立生活獨立生活跟社區參與部分有入法嗎有入法在社區生活跟自立生活服務都在入法裡面第50條裡面有明訂的服務項目所以我可以確定是個人助理服務入法並沒有入法你只是用他的一個服務範圍或等等去涵蓋嗎"},{"start":243.022,"end":270.273,"text":"對 就是在自立生活服務是入法的那自立生活服務呢他在個人服務照顧辦法個人照顧服務辦法裡面有明定的在個人助理的部分謝謝部長 也要讓這個障礙者他們會關注他們要了解我們今天談的不是抽象的人權就是一條一條的人命根據自立生活聯盟的統計2017年到現在有84起長照殺人事件"},{"start":271.013,"end":288.68,"text":"那根據家庭照顧總會的統計則是從2018年到2024年7年間平均每年將近9件長照殺人這些案件法官在判決書裡有這麼寫家屬不熟悉政府提供的社會福利補助"},{"start":289.48,"end":314.417,"text":"政府也未能適時轉介相關的福利與制度結果讓照顧者長期被迫獨自承擔壓力部長您自己也說過這個反映了照顧者支持系統不足政府要做得更多那我想請教您說要做得更多是做什麼做到哪裡那如果你沒有把社區支持個人助理放在裡面那這樣子把這個權力還給這個障礙者那您覺得像類似這種長照殺人這個杯哥還會再發生激情呢"},{"start":319.54,"end":339.005,"text":"我們不斷的在精進這個支持性的服務啦那麼包含了這個喘息服務包含了社區的多元的資源的整合協助還有家庭照顧者的支持服務所以我們不斷的在擴成這些服務資源同時呢也透過這個風險的篩檢我們有這個叫做高風險的篩檢指標來"},{"start":344.006,"end":349.612,"text":"極早的發現這個高負荷的家庭照顧者來做調整但是你要叫國際審查委員會IRC嘛2022年打的分數是什麼他們在意見欄裡面表達什麼失望"},{"start":359.673,"end":380.047,"text":"他認為政府推動障礙者的權益時仍然以慈善跟生物醫學的觀點來做政策意思是政府並沒有看到障礙者的主權性跟權利這個觀念是很重要的仍然把障礙者視為他被照顧被管理甚至是一個依賴慈善救助的角色"},{"start":380.908,"end":396.473,"text":"就這個價值觀的轉換是非常的關鍵如果不在生權法裡面補上這些權利難道你就要有心理準備你會再被國際點名就是你會打的分數又是失望部長您了解這件事嗎您了解這件事的嚴重性"},{"start":397.673,"end":416.861,"text":"我相信經過這幾年的努力那是2022年我希望我下次看到你的分數會進步提醒部長上次的分數是失望部長醫美政策在你表達嚴管之後很快出現了髮夾彎原來衛福部主張要提升醫美安全強化醫師資格"},{"start":418.302,"end":440.175,"text":"但是企業商之後可以執行一枚手勢範圍擴大成11大科2019年之前沒有PGY的也要補件就可以合法執業繼續執業強制評鑑竟然變成了這個自律認證我想很多醫師都想知道你這個共識是怎麼形成的我想請部長說明我先講幾句話讓部長在"},{"start":441.556,"end":462.227,"text":"就是好好對大家來做說明擴大到11顆皆可以執行醫美手術的決策過程那大家特別關心加1顆為什麼呢因為相對於加1顆那一顆住院醫師訓練時有這個樁靜脈導管的一個急救插管中央靜脈導管抽胸水抽腹水的這些訓練"},{"start":463.408,"end":474.08,"text":"內科醫師們很困惑啊那為什麼是這個在訓練過程中比較少有這些侵入性的醫療的過程的訓練的家醫科醫師你可以允許他去抽脂呢請部長回答"},{"start":475.696,"end":503.831,"text":"這個跟委員說明在上次的會議只是在共識會議中的一場今天下午還有第二場所以並沒有做成最後的修法的決定還沒有決定精神科的醫師為什麼可以做大家有一些意見就是說今天還在繼續今天下午還有一場所以對於加一科是不是可以認定為大外科如果我個人的意見我是不認同"},{"start":504.451,"end":509.393,"text":"那麼應該要檢視他的訓練過程訓練過程裡面到底有多少的時數是有進行手術的訓練應該從這個觀點來看這個不是用協商的而是要看實際的他們的訓練過程那沒有PGY的醫學他的補健證據有沒有標準補健 他補什麼健那審查機制會不會公開"},{"start":528.382,"end":541.834,"text":"應該這麼講在108年之後我們才有正式的兩年的PGY制度所以108年以後的沒有完整兩年的PGY訓練的通通要補訓完成才能夠執行這個醫美處置是補訓還補健"},{"start":544.637,"end":560.855,"text":"補訓 回去訓練完那個機制我們都會看到那取消強制評鑑後 衛福部能夠保障醫美診所會更安全嗎已經好多起人命了當然在上個上個禮拜的這些醫事室所召開的"},{"start":561.696,"end":580.937,"text":"这个讨论里头这个会议讨论里头那么普遍当然在基层诊所对于这个平健这两个字呢是有点排斥的当然认为说这个医院平健造成了一些阴影不希望扩展到这个基层诊所但是"},{"start":581.658,"end":600.787,"text":"即使我們不做用評鑑這個名稱但是也要有一些品質的確保機制那麼不管它稱為認證也好還是什麼樣的名詞但是這個內容本身是要由衛生主管機關來認同要怎麼個做法裡面要看哪一些"},{"start":601.287,"end":624.255,"text":"特別是麻醉的安全 麻醉的安全一定在這些執行高風險手術的診所裡面需要去檢視的所以不論是用督導考核 不論是用認證都要你認為醫美非常重要 所以我處理陳情案的時候醫師是也表達說你非常重視這一塊醫美不見得是最重要 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謝謝陳委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"166265","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166265","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c04e8827e107cd49cd9ecb9f93c172c551e95b9c653acd4d72f952555c339954dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:37:57 - 09:48:42","影片長度":"00:10:45","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「財政收支劃分法」7案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員郭國文等17人、委員賴瑞隆等19人、委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n(二)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等26人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例」2案：（僅詢答）\n(一)本院委員郭國文等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n 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到現在還不復違的原因是什麼你知道嗎當然就是說跟軍警有關待遇相關的這個部分只有這一項而已嗎"},{"start":155.618,"end":159.901,"text":"另外就是才化法剛修正的11月14號的這個版本的問題"},{"start":161.98,"end":184.53,"text":"那11月14號才劃法這個版本它非常的自愛難行因為我們在8月底中央跟地方都已經把預算送到民營機關來審議了所以這個11月14號才通過我們的預算完全無法回溯所以這個有它的自愛難行我先問一個比較程序的問題"},{"start":185.811,"end":201.043,"text":"其實以我了解現在地方政府的議會無論是直轄市或是各縣市都已經在審查預算了那他們的明年的預算關於中央政府補助還有統籌分配稅款的部分如果中央的這個預算審查沒有過他們拿得到嗎就會受到影響影響是怎麼樣的影響"},{"start":206.604,"end":231.297,"text":"就是說我們主要就是可能個別部會必須去界定哪一些是新興的新興的就一定會受影響那因為115年度這個制度的變革比較大所以新興的會比較多我提早我現在建議你們你要提早爬書提早整理好不好不要到時候你才在那邊緊張我跟你講現在地方政府地方的議會都在審預算"},{"start":232.698,"end":258.232,"text":"因為我有服務團隊 我服務團隊裡面有議員啊他們就跟我講說現在在審預算啊那中央的要給他的補助啊 中央的這個統統分配稅款他們其實都有量定之後再去審那當然他們可以周轉啊 他們可以先借一下然後如果你中央撥下來之後他再 他再頂嘛問題是如果中央一直撥不下去那中央撥不下去的影響程度到底會到什麼程度你能不能先概估一下"},{"start":259.853,"end":279.355,"text":"現在如果沒有撥款下去應該蠻多地方政府他在調度的能力因為他這次影響的範圍比較廣所以那個調度的能力應該是不夠所以地方的很多的建設都還有跟地方有關的一些社會福利的項目都會受到影響"},{"start":280.336,"end":306.803,"text":"沒有辦法 因為現在他們的 有人看法是說我立法機關我用法律的規定 規定你要硬性支出搶奪你的行政權嘛那你現在這樣的法律剛剛你講說你們的看法是自愛難行嘛我舉個例子 他軍人一定要加薪多少錢軍人加薪喔 應該是行政機關的權利嘛但立法機關又跟你立法那我將來如果人多我可不可以立法 立一個說立法委員每個人每個月要加薪兩百萬"},{"start":308.083,"end":318.471,"text":"那立個法你要不要執行所以我舉這樣子的例子是說有時候這個東西是要經過大家協商大家研判那現在不省預算那現在把總預算當作肉票啊"},{"start":319.762,"end":345.676,"text":"擄人勒鼠你聽過嘛擄人勒鼠是抓人要拿錢嘛對不對那現在是擄總預算不讓你審查然後硬要逼你 你一定要吞下去嘛 對不對所以這在我來看跟擄人勒鼠有接近啦所以你的總預算會變成肉票真的沒辦法審所以你現在應該要趕快爬出來你不要等到12月底他說要延後一個月然後1月底你才跟人家講早點跟人家講讓人家早做準備"},{"start":347.082,"end":372.293,"text":"對不對 你覺得呢是 我們應該要來做這些事情好 那我是希望能夠了解說如果真的沒有預算審查影響最大的是 我知道大家的薪水都可以領啊沒有問題啊 因為照以前的法律規定你薪水都照領嘛但是新興計畫都不能做那原有的計畫 原有的舊有的計畫也只能夠做多少只能做一部分吧 不是百分之百吧就是以上年度的執行數為天花板"},{"start":373.537,"end":401.852,"text":"上年度的執行組的天花板所以增加的預算都沒有了對好那你要把這個仔細的整理出來提早讓透過媒體讓全民知道預算不審查所造成的後果先古人說不教而殺為之虐你先把這個造成的危害講在前面說清楚講明白將來發生的人家才不會跪在你頭上不然你希望以後主計部財政部吃不完兜著走"},{"start":403.098,"end":421.906,"text":"是你贊不贊成我這個說法是尤其就是說其實預算就我施政的表現那如果預算一直沒有過未來這個責任政治就會不清楚不清楚他不在乎啊他就現在在跟你搞政治他也不管你預算審查都已經把這個總預算當作肉票了他還來還來管你這個嗎"},{"start":425.269,"end":446.485,"text":"那你要讓國民知道說哪一些讓他們講清楚現在因為很多民眾很多國民的觀念裡面政府是一體的所以譬如說他拿不到租屋補貼到底我是應該要怪地方政府還是要怪中央政府還是要怪審查預算的這一些立法委員他們搞不清楚狀況啊那"},{"start":447.338,"end":472.554,"text":"我在外面走我在我的選區走常常被這樣問愛委員我們那個補助到底有沒有我也沒辦法回答他因為你預算沒有審查我也不知道那個補助會不會有我也不知道那個補助是應該要中方政府來付還是地方政府來付我也沒辦法回答他所以我現在都只能跟他講說你到服務處來我找那個秘書他們找那個行政機關跟你查詢查詢之後再回答你"},{"start":473.594,"end":498.684,"text":"連我都搞得不清不楚的那你現在跟一般的人怎麼會搞得清楚的所以是什麼樣的情況造成哪一些的補助會變成沒有辦法下來這是誰的權責是地方政府該給的補助還是中央政府該給的補助地方政府拿不到中央撥款之後他可能也沒辦法補助那他也可能轉頭他賴給說中央政府不給我錢所以我沒有辦法補助你"},{"start":499.662,"end":512.928,"text":"就像現在啊不是最近在討論那個什麼罰單嗎交通違規的罰單一大堆就說仔細去看原來地方政府拿了75%警察單位拿了24%那只有1%是拿來怎麼樣"},{"start":515.289,"end":543.599,"text":"結果很多人搞不清楚我以為開罰單就是交通部給我搞的每一個人都罵交通部我每次都跟他看說你看看罰單上面寫誰如果在我們新北市就是新北市政府警察局交通違規罰單我都會拿給他看新北市政府警察局他說不管啦反正也是交通部那邊訂的法律啦反正都怪你們就對了要賴給清德就好了啊所有的不如意所有的不愉快全部都賴給政府就好了都賴給清德就好了"},{"start":544.844,"end":561.219,"text":"所以我是希望冤有頭債有主啦不要造成這樣的狀況那你可不可以告訴我你多久可以這個東西可以爬出清楚我希望有一天在媒體上看到也不用你來跟我報告我希望在媒體上看到講清楚說明白這個會造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":562.686,"end":574.474,"text":"有沒有辦法 跟委員報告就是委員講的這個這非常的重要 那其實我們已經持續都對外說明說預算沒有過的這個影響哪有 我就很少看到那我們會再更大力的這個"},{"start":577.142,"end":598.003,"text":"因為你講得不夠仔細 你沒有講說你的租屋補貼還會不會有你每一年給年輕人讀大學的 讀私立大學的補助還有沒有等等這些你要講清楚啊你沒有講清楚就講說我過了會很慘那許民眾聽了很慘是怎麼樣很慘 我不知道很慘是什麼意思"},{"start":599.622,"end":623.696,"text":"就是我們了解就是說我們院裡面會請各部會趕快去會診他的相關心境計畫的沒有過的影響對啊因為責任政治就是要可以可以那個可以知道誰在搞我誰在搞鬼然後我受害要找誰這個一定要弄清楚不然的話搞不清楚狀況我怎麼知道我這只好賴給反正都賴給政府就好了"},{"start":624.929,"end":633.934,"text":"千萬不要這樣啊誰做對不對 始作俑者岂其無後乎誰作勇 誰負責 好不好好 我們跟部會來合作 謝謝謝謝吳委員接下來我們請賴世保委員"}]}},{"id":"166264","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166264","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0594f9ad4803e316ea68b3568d601d3dce95b9c653acd4d72f952555c339954dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:42:08 - 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謝謝主席好 沈記長喝完水了好 有請沈記長辛苦了來 請沈記長"},{"start":17.648,"end":44.488,"text":"委員好 審計長我們看到你們提出希望這個相關的修法尤其是增加人事的部分那其實剛剛已經有非常多委員都提醒了我想你們的修法的狀況當然就是要因應業務量的膨脹所以我想因為這個部分很多委員都已經垂詢過我就不再多說那原則上我們當然支持可是我當然希望如同剛剛非常多委員的提醒我們希望有專業的人進到這個位置來協助整個國家的審計業務所以我們來看一下我們辦公室整理完發現其實確實"},{"start":46.869,"end":72.263,"text":"從99年開始到現在都沒有增加所以我想你們提出來應該有你們道理跟理由那不過我想要努力說服各個委員辦公室這件事情應該是後續您很重要的工作那我接下來想要直接跟你討論在審計業務上面我們辦公室發現一個很大的問題來跟你一併討論第一個就是關於行政法人跟行政機關明明是不一樣的可是我們看到審計的量能跟審計的評量成效跟相關指標卻看不出相關的差異"},{"start":73.283,"end":87.819,"text":"我不知道這個部分你知不知道我的意思我們來看一下我來解釋一下在表演藝術聯盟去年他們辦了一個公開的論壇在論壇上面就有專家學者說這個審計制度上路20年以來觀察到了實務現象他們用兩廳院來舉例"},{"start":90.982,"end":113.934,"text":"兩立院在2004年改制為行政法人之後呢他們的監管機關增加了一倍而且這些機關當中啊包含立法委員也認為自己是監管機關都對行政法人沒有充足的認識導致標準不一什麼意思呢什麼叫標準不一一下子叫行政法人要自負盈虧一下又叫他要增加公共利益好來下一張"},{"start":114.574,"end":133.808,"text":"通常的增加公共利益跟自負盈虧之間必然會有一些落差我們看了你們審計部的決算報告裡面呢你們在評鑒行政法人的指標上你們把自籌率視為是非常重要的指標而且你們也要求行政法人要逐年提高自籌率"},{"start":134.508,"end":162.026,"text":"可是問題是行政法人的特性是什麼我們來看以兩庭院為例他有專業的需求他需要強化成本效益還有經營的效能具有不適合由政府機關推動也不適合交給民間來辦的特質台灣目前的行政法人幾乎都是專業度很高例如說我舉例這個國家太空中心或在國家表演藝術中心這些都跟公共利益有關不管是文化科技研究醫療如果我們要所謂的"},{"start":165.168,"end":179.717,"text":"國家太空中心國家表演藝術中心要提高自籌率我們覺得政府政府覺得他們已經獨立出去了很多立法委員也這樣說那就要自籌利益那難道不用考慮商業發展的規模嗎可是又說他要兼顧公共任務"},{"start":180.678,"end":200.185,"text":"我認為這件事情有很大的矛盾確實也因為這樣每一年這些法人再到立法院來報告要承擔這個預算給予的時候常常很多時候會被很多立法委員羞辱可是回過頭來看他們因為說公共任務然後國家要給他們錢可是又說自酬率的部分我覺得這個困境很大"},{"start":200.845,"end":228.632,"text":"那國表藝中心我先或者是國家太空中心我列了他們的公共任務沈機長看得很清楚他們的公共任務這麼多尤其是太空中心他還要台灣自主太空技術能力支持國家長期科技發展強化國安災害監測促進產業發展跟國際合作而這些怎麼可能拿來盈利對不對好這個很奇怪國表藝更奇怪了提升原創能量多元人才培育地方政府合作促進社會資源藝文平權永續發展"},{"start":230.592,"end":254.281,"text":"那我想要問的是審計部可以做的應該是去審計法人有沒有妥善的運用預算執行所謂的公共任務再去認識他們的績效可是我們看到你們的報告來關鍵來了審計部的報告裡面呢你們在這個所謂的審計記卡裡面你們給審計人員參考的指標有提到行政法人的自籌率為達目標"},{"start":255.942,"end":260.129,"text":"所以我就要問了行政法人他處於一個左也不是右也不是"},{"start":261.311,"end":286.608,"text":"要自籌也不是要盈利也不是這個狀態那如果自籌率變成是你們審計部很重要很表面的指標查查的深度我認為不夠也可能會錯失你們的審計量能甚至國人看到這個審計報告的時候也會對這個法人的認識是錯誤的甚至立法委員在做質詢的時候也不對所以我這裡要拜託審計部喔你們在這個部分有沒有相關在執行修的課程或是審計角度的調整來 請審計長回答好 委員剛剛講的啊我都認同"},{"start":291.951,"end":312.522,"text":"太好了我們有共識行政法人該怎麼樣就怎麼樣但是有時候要去注意一個單位起來的時候我們要讓他自己能夠駐控你像我們去看也是行政法人好像中科院的樣子我們去看他的時候"},{"start":313.482,"end":340.62,"text":"他裡面一萬多人有一千多人都是二千等三千等所以像這種或者是他的採購我們一發現通通很多的都是有趣都是違照產地證明或者是進口證明所以這個我們要讓他上到這個軌道但是有的是盡量讓這個住戶上軌道委員的目標就是我們的目標要讓他這個"},{"start":341.981,"end":361.37,"text":"行政法人發揮公共利益剛剛談自求性的部分因為財政永續對一個法人的存在有相當的所以他要兼顧財政永續的時候因為這些績效指標是他們提出來的如果他提10%我們就用10%來審計他如果他提50%我就用50%審計他我不會鑄創審計指標所以"},{"start":371.315,"end":375.218,"text":"回應剛剛沈記長說的 我完全認同一 在制度上我們絕對要防弊 你剛包含你剛講的一萬多人裡面有一千人多人是三個三清等啦 採購的問題啦 偽造的問題這個制度裡面該怎麼查查 我絕對贊成 這個我也認同 二"},{"start":388.346,"end":406.589,"text":"自籌的部分你剛剛說財政永續這個角度我也支持可是如同你剛剛說的這些法人他們如何制定指標制定10%還是50%如果看起來就您的專業角度有一些單位可能自己搞不清楚狀況的情況下定得太高我們可能也要建議他們要做出調整"},{"start":407.35,"end":432.919,"text":"或者是有人訂得太低我們也要跟他們說你們不能這樣亂搞所以我想後續針對行政法人的這些業務我剛要舉一些例子你看現在頭影片上也有這麼多行政法人我認為未來我們共同的目標應該是去協助這些行政法人一如何訂定合理的自籌指標二相關在配合國家審計查查制度的時候如何更加完善的協助審計部配合審計部我想以上這樣的結論應該是我們兩個可以有共識的對不對"},{"start":435.24,"end":455.629,"text":"很好 我們會照委員的主事我們來幫忙這些行政機關因為這些行政法人這些行政法人是荒辛未哀正在起步 現在有十幾個我們現在會幫忙他好 那這會發表這個部分的指標我們辦公室也會再跟你們討論 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166256","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166256","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0dbd4cc1b21eed4b9ff56a78bd28eb122e95b9c653acd4d72ab3cf16057514ebe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:10:34 - 09:13:18","影片長度":"00:02:44","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T09:10:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T09:13:18+08:00","duration":164,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.16096875,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.52721875,"end":163.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.41034375,"end":165.27096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.685,"end":32.088,"text":"謝謝主席 各位立院同仁出席的官員以及媒體朋友本席今天有兩項提案身心障礙者權益保障法第10條的修正案以及身心障礙者權益保障法第71條條文的修正案核心都是相同的就是希望讓身心障礙者不只是被服務而是成為真正擁有權力有能夠參與決策的人第一個修法是把身心障礙"},{"start":33.129,"end":50.59,"text":"者權益推動小組正式寫到法律裡面給他清楚定位及應有的權責本席的版本障礙者代表最終計算起來至少要達到四分之一這也呼應了過去衛福部所期待"},{"start":51.331,"end":71.898,"text":"不過委員會裡也有同仁提出更高比例的方案我認為這是一個非常好的現象代表國會正在往更進步更符合CRPD的精神的方向來進行討論那麼未來逐條審查整合版本時本席也願意讓障礙者更能真正的上桌的方案納進來討論因為這部法律不只是"},{"start":74.699,"end":96.056,"text":"有中央要設地方同樣的也要遵守既然才劃法都已經讓地方擁有更多的預算更多的資源那麼我們更同步的賦予相同的權責讓制度不只是框架而是更能夠運作而第二個修法則是補足長期被忽視的月經平權問題障礙女性面對的不只是一般"},{"start":96.957,"end":120.368,"text":"生理衛生用品必須解決的問題而是更高的成本更高的負擔以及更高的健康風險那有人因為無法自行操作只能選擇酷刑或是特殊材質的生理用品有人因為長期臥床只能用更昂貴的夜用型又或者是加厚版費用比一般的這個非障礙女性要高出好幾倍"},{"start":121.348,"end":139.249,"text":"那麼C島清楚的指出了健康不是特權而是國家必須保障的基本權責障礙女性因為經濟負擔而減少更換次數更是已經不只是不變而是制度所造成的健康風險那本席這次所提出的兩項修法"},{"start":139.83,"end":162.785,"text":"都一個是強化參與讓障礙者有真正的席位一個是補上性別差異讓健康權落到每一個人的生活裡面共同面對都是相同的問題就是制度長期沒有真正的看到障礙者的困境所以希望在討論的時候大院當中院會當中的每一個同仁都能夠支持本席的修法謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166255","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166255","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c09aba114f9779dbdfff56a78bd28eb122e95b9c653acd4d72ab3cf16057514ebe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:08:15 - 09:10:26","影片長度":"00:02:11","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T09:08:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T09:10:26+08:00","duration":131,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.26721875,"end":1.8703437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.39721875,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.02971875,"end":128.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.51284375,"end":131.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.94284375,"end":131.97659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.339,"end":0.98,"text":"每位委員兩分鐘"},{"start":8.707,"end":28.877,"text":"主席各位同事各位媒體朋友這十多年來身障者的權益一次又一次的被忽視我們看到的是無障礙的問題在倒退資訊是越來越不好取得個人助理的時間始終不足甚至台鐵的無障礙措施的協助服務又開始出錯甚至延誤"},{"start":31.638,"end":51.633,"text":"那我今天要負責任告訴大家台灣民眾黨的這個所提出來的身心障礙者權益保障法的修正查案是按照身障者的訴求CRPD的精神以及參考其他國家的做法一條一條把它寫到我們的法案裡那我們的版本有三個重點第一把可及性"},{"start":52.513,"end":76.642,"text":"清楚入法不只是建築入權還包括交通網站資訊平台也就是交通部跟台鐵不能夠再以沒有預算更新後再來改善的理由來推脫第二個個人助理服務以使用者自主為核心民地個人助理服務要涵蓋十一住行工作參與政治參與等生活各個面向"},{"start":77.082,"end":92.984,"text":"而且必須以使用者自主為原則並設置獨立的監督跟申訴機構避免時數不足還有審查不透明等等再度發生呼應這個自立生活的精神第三將去機構化及社區支持明確入法"},{"start":94.085,"end":104.15,"text":"任何人都不應該被迫離開他的家庭自己的社區政府必須提供交通住房同儕的支援讓你們真正有選擇的自由CRPD告訴我們人權不是一個口號而是政府應該要主動積極去實現的承諾"},{"start":112.594,"end":127.914,"text":"每一位障礙的朋友都應該像所有人一樣都能夠自由選擇的自己的生活能夠被尊重被理解而且也能夠帶著尊嚴走在這片土地上希望各位同事能夠支持台灣民眾黨的版本謝謝好謝謝我們的陳昭之委員"}]}},{"id":"166283","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166283","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0b31da761dc9018f0a68b3568d601d3dc44a569ea12001d97dca8d0dceb804b035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"10:40:09 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你有看過你們各處的處長去到議會備詢的狀況嗎有你覺得這樣的場景適合嗎都因為這是主軸所在 要甘之足矣"},{"start":47.54,"end":65.131,"text":"因為你們報告寫下來嘛 就是寫一寫然後到應該都年底啦 年底就會進議會嘛那就是不同政黨的人 有些拿來攻擊嘛那有些拿來請這個處長 解說說這句話是什麼意思嘛我來齁 一定要叫他們橫屏報導 後會愛笑 拜也愛笑"},{"start":73.567,"end":82.213,"text":"那你們做審計就是各縣市政府自己定的標準你們以那個標準去審計嘛對 因為我們不會注定標準"},{"start":85.097,"end":111.294,"text":"那我請問一下你們報告出來之前你們當然這個寫報告過程中會請各縣市政府提供相關的資料嗎會請他提供相關的資料以後還會請他看看這樣是不是客觀公正那也會請相關的人員來到處裡頭一般我們會去抽查的時候就會和他們開會議那最後這個報告出來之前"},{"start":116.57,"end":133.47,"text":"還有讓這些單位的同仁啦比如說各縣市政府局處的人員再有一次辯駁的機會嗎有 我們這個是很基本做審計很基本的因為我們客觀公正很重要那他辯駁完的內容會再放進去報告嗎"},{"start":134.721,"end":152.566,"text":"客觀他講的有道理有沒有道理是誰決定因為我們現在查一個都要損記發現還有要有客觀數據他沒辦法反駁我的客觀數據他如果反駁了你覺得沒道理你們會不會把他的說明放進去有都會"},{"start":157.956,"end":167.179,"text":"他會怎麼樣 要看有的是說會這個明顯的沒有道理為什麼這樣問啊是因為會有這個狀況就是說這個事情已經都跟審計處講過了那審計處呢 我就去講過了審計處就硬要這樣寫那到最後呢 到了議會去啊議會議員會質詢嘛你們的處長就會回答嘛回答完之後媒體就會來問這個局長啊"},{"start":186.992,"end":191.902,"text":"欸 局長 啊 審計 你那審計處會這樣寫啊 你那什麼意見啊 我就把審計處說不是這樣啊 他就要寫啊那不可以 有沒有遇到這種事 有"},{"start":198.154,"end":221.339,"text":"那怎麼辦 我已經在 我已經啊 我提面命說人家有道理的事情啊 你一定要叩關公正好 我是建議這樣啦就是說相關的 因為你們的審計是按照各單位他們自己定的標準去審計 對吧好 他標準定很低也是他家的事 對好 那"},{"start":223.237,"end":245.048,"text":"我是建議這樣就是說你們在這個因為你們那個報告都有出題字嘛出題字裡頭會有價值判斷我叫他們盡量不要下個人的意見那就是這些用字啊我是覺得相關的用字給它標準化譬如說未達標"},{"start":246.825,"end":250.206,"text":"要達標就沒達標嘛有人說這最罵的 人就很生氣 我知道 就是那些用字啊因為我跟你講你們的審計報告到了年底是各縣市議員啊非常重要的參考文件 怕連那個可以連很久的除了你們的處長去報告那一場以外啊後面就是一直連一直連"},{"start":272.213,"end":276.417,"text":"有些地方的媒體就嚇五六瓶 會嚇得很簡單因為你們裡頭寫了蠻多價值判斷在裡頭用了一些成語 情緒性的字眼那這個可能慢慢再改啦 已經改很多啦這個可能要調整一下因為你們是比較有客觀的標準在談這件事因為我只會被定位為說你們在"},{"start":296.116,"end":319.219,"text":"批評某一個縣市長的施政有時候會落到這樣我們是要用善意把關 要從善 把共助善助好 第二個就是我們今天討論比較多的這個政務任用你可不可以講一下為什麼要政務任用你們的副手 副座為什麼要有一個是政務任用你不可以說我們本人都有 我也要有"},{"start":320.609,"end":345.137,"text":"就是審計單位的特性 為什麼要政務任用就是說這件事情 再講一下你不要再跟我說是因為別人有也要有這最主要 我常務大部分都遵照一般在執行遵照我們的政策方向在執行政務會協助破壞一些損失的方向 損失的政策"},{"start":347.078,"end":370.954,"text":"常務的就沒那麼多也是沒那麼多啦 但是就剛才你說的這個國家的體制你就叫我不要講那個我就講比較可是我是說為什麼要政務啦 不懂啊就是這樣 政務有政務的功能嘛常務有常務的功能那沈長你任期會不會跨越總統的任期看起來不會喔看起來不會喔不一定啦 這個因為還要閒啦還要閒我不知道啦我說在設計上啦"},{"start":376.508,"end":377.196,"text":"設計上會跨越嘛"},{"start":377.819,"end":403.545,"text":"設計上一定跨越我是小英第一任是蔡總統提名我跨越了蔡總統 到了賴總統所以就是設計上你有可能會跨越不同的總統會跨越不同的但是我們都是不管是哪一個總統我們都是秉持我們審計獨立的精神該替國家把關那你覺得這個總統會對審計長啊"},{"start":407.466,"end":432.622,"text":"就是說我國家政策要這樣走 所以沈記長要跟著走嗎 會嗎兩院的總統都沒有給我交代金的事情那如果不會的話 那你的這個副沈記長 或者副座啊副座為什麼要跟政務任命有關呢剛剛講嘛 我一個人會將人財進不是啦 你就用常務的就好"},{"start":433.894,"end":456.494,"text":"常務的喔 常務的就比較主性 都聽我的那我就要自己拚了那政務的就不會聽你的嘛 對不對沒有啦 他可以陪我逗生啦常務的也可以 所以你這事情你還是沒解決啦這個說法上啦 好啦 好啦 我來處理啦對不起 師傅我是說你要跟社會解釋 政務跟常務在這件事情上的差別第二個 我最後問一個問題啦今天你的報告 今天兩個單位來喔"},{"start":461.218,"end":464.881,"text":"都企劃調價 你說什麼都沒有啊 都沒有啊 都沒有啊你聽我說你聽我說你聽我說你聽我說你聽說你聽說你聽說你聽說你聽說你聽說你聽說你聽說你聽說你聽說你聽說你聽說你聽說你聽說你聽說"},{"start":482.176,"end":484.818,"text":"你剛有講說你有跟那個部長聯絡嘛我請問一下你們這個案子要送出來你們三個單位有開過火嗎三個單位沒有啦 因為我是順治獨立 我要上監察院監察院的議長啊 這個心計一定要勞人所以制度上你們 要支持 要祝福"},{"start":509.832,"end":525.903,"text":"制度上你們三個不可以一起開會不是啦 你們要做比喻 我想說你們三個單位會一起開會嗎不會 因為我審計有審計的獨立在我那個世界最高審計機關來講要審計獨立不能受到行政的牽制"},{"start":530.933,"end":545.318,"text":"不是啦 開尾啦這邊簽署的很厲害啊我說開尾啦 不一定簽字啦所以這個會不會開了對不對你們三個補會有啦 都有去問啦都有去問說這樣可以嗎大家都說可以啊來到這裡都說不行搞不好說種植品挑我挑我問問的都可以啦剛才那個想起白想起的好啦 萬一你說製度上你要找這個開尾做一個會議紀錄有困難對不對沒有啦 因為這製度上OK 好 了解 好 謝謝"},{"start":562.861,"end":562.882,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166282","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166282","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0cea4a5b2afe15578ed0cecc406237e9644a569ea12001d9724c937f9f25b3ec65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:30:10 - 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大个大还有中华电信成立这个基金我们只有壮大自己的平台才不会过度依赖像国外的这些Netflix这个部分第三"},{"start":157.438,"end":176.29,"text":"他們會併購這些電影最大的電影公司你就知道最終還是內容是最重要的就是你有能力產製很好的內容這才是一個王道就是你的電影劇集一定要有能力跟其他國家競爭它才是一個最後的決勝的地方"},{"start":178.792,"end":198.59,"text":"當然我們有好的內容這才是最吸引人的而且我們要跟國際合作那麼如何撞到我們自己的平台其實在這個國際創流平台它集結越多著名的IP的這個情況之下我們應該要如何去因應讓我們的平台讓我們的作品可以脫穎而出"},{"start":199.23,"end":212.91,"text":"這也是很重要的一點而且新聞中有提到說Netflix它收購的主因有部分是為了降低授權費的支出喔那所以未來串流平台在授權費上會不會有銷價競爭的情況"},{"start":215.013,"end":242.39,"text":"报道也指出说最快2026的第三季就会生效所以文化部这边我们要持续关注国际影视的动态我们后续我们的鼓励优秀影视产业的这些相关的政策我们如何调整如何推动这也是很重要未来我刚刚讲了如何在国际这些跟大家资源集中的这种竞争对手我们要如何脱颖而出部长您有想法吗"},{"start":243.15,"end":261.568,"text":"有 其实我们在刚刚提到跟国际合作合制的这个方面还有我们最近投资了非常多的在类型上面我们会选择对台湾本身的类型上比较占优势的影片最近各位大概了解我们台湾的电影电影本身的票房"},{"start":262.909,"end":287.307,"text":"今年已经超过去年大概百分之三十左右就是因为我们在类型上已经找到一个我们台湾本身比较适合的类型比较能够吸引国际来看的一个类型就是朝着我们的强项去发展是好 谢谢部长那接下来我想要询问有关于演唱会产业链的问题近年来高雄举办非常多的演唱会"},{"start":288.187,"end":301.395,"text":"讓我們看到我們台灣是有許多城市是有能力吸引國際明星來台灣辦這種大規模的大型演唱會讓演唱會不只是演唱會它是可以結合明星IP文化觀光經濟的這個產業鏈不單純只是來看產"},{"start":306.078,"end":318.055,"text":"配合我们国家跟城市的文化行销部长您觉得我们有没有这样的能量来壮大台湾演唱会的经济打造台湾成为亚洲的演唱会岛"},{"start":320.478,"end":337.824,"text":"因為演唱會它是一個三業機制我們會努力的從我們能夠掌握的部分比如說我們會提升我們的音樂節這種但是演唱會本身它是一個三業機制那我們會努力朝這個方向我舉個例說像運動部它就看到了運動產業的重要性"},{"start":339.264,"end":366.301,"text":"它集結台灣50大的運動產業品牌希望可以打造台灣成為運動產業島來辦理具有台灣特色及文化的運動賽事那所以同理來說高雄的演唱會這個經濟的蓬勃告訴我們說我們台灣是有潛力可以成為亞洲演唱會的聚集地所以本席希望說文化部你們可以構思相關產業的發展跟媒合我們應該要支持我們國內外的音樂人"},{"start":367.462,"end":394.421,"text":"文化来推升内需扩大相关这个音乐节的规模从刚那个部长你有提到了我们可以从在地的音乐日音乐节开始我们来扩大台湾那个演唱会的这个产业的量能我也希望说文化部你们有看到这个可行性发展性要来串联演唱会产业链打造我们台湾成为这个演唱会岛这个部长您觉得有没有信心可以去这样子规划"},{"start":395.481,"end":418.609,"text":"有 因為我們在對音樂的政策方面其實我們已經開始執行新南夏政策就是我們會跟東南亞的國家交流那今年選擇泰國希望泰國也是我們未來的市場之一所以我們會一步一步的走向我們彼此之間在市場上可以互通的一些東南亞國家互相喜歡對方的音樂"},{"start":419.369,"end":434.521,"text":"好 謝謝部長我希望說這個真的是其實這個音樂音樂它是一個可以帶動的可以感染的可以傳染的那我們讓這樣子的氛圍出去我覺得台灣真的是非常有這樣的量能可以來做這樣的發展"},{"start":435.822,"end":455.579,"text":"那好 說到這個演唱會呢我們就來討論一下觀眾的這個權益的問題演唱會這樣蓬勃辦理的狀況之下消極會今年接獲很多演唱會座位釋憲不良的申訴案件而且情況不是個案喔所以交消極會這邊有呼籲文化部應該檢討藝文表演票券定型化契約"},{"start":456.42,"end":471.342,"text":"除了要強制揭露遮蔽區外也應該增訂補償條款我想知道我們目前文化部的態度是什麼我這邊要強調演唱會視線不良這個制度是長期缺乏明確的指引跟補救機制所致雖然說"},{"start":472.404,"end":494.586,"text":"主办单位可能在事前有广告部分区域视线遮蔽但是是很小的字但是遮蔽的这个状况往往超出预期例如舞台设计啊道具升降啊灯光掉降拍摄这个摄影机的轨道还有音响设备都可能让观众在整场演出之中无法看清楚表演因为观众投诉的话只一整场只看到半颗头"},{"start":494.946,"end":504.134,"text":"只聽到聲音所以這樣子沒有顧到我們消費者的權益的這個這個整個的制度下我覺得我們應該也要朝著這個方向去研議"},{"start":506.533,"end":528.671,"text":"我們演唱會它可能本來只有座位圖可是座位圖它每一場的現場的規劃不一樣你光靠座位圖你想像不出來可能被遮蔽的範圍在哪裡所以這個部分我希望說應該要有個遮蔽就是要設定這個揭露的比例我希望文化部可以研議這個部分像你搭飛機你在網路上選機位它也會告訴你這是無窗戶價位可能會便宜一點所以這個部分文化部我們可以來為我們的觀眾做怎樣的協助呢"},{"start":536.508,"end":562.771,"text":"其實我們本來就發現了所以我們會一直在持續要求這個平台它在售票的時候要更多的提醒不能只有一個座位那這個部分我們已經在做了我們提醒平台做更多的提醒但是有沒有一個比較明確的指引或是一個怎樣的規範一個機制讓消費者也可以申訴啊或者一個補救機制啊"},{"start":568.001,"end":587.29,"text":"委員好先跟委員說明一下確實目前大概大部分的主辦單位其實都已經有在網路上在做售票的時候提醒包括舞台設計可能這比甚至有些會提供一些票價上的優惠差異那至於這個部分之前消息會提出來這樣子的訴求的時候我們會持續的在收集一下意見"},{"start":588.05,"end":613.233,"text":"因为其实基本上它的所谓的指引这件事情就是作为遮蔽的方式其实对每一个人他其实会有一些不同的看法那这一项其实确实需要再多收集一些意见来了解看看业界实务的做法当然那每一场演唱会它本身的布置它本身它在演唱会之前它是不能太做太多的公布但是你也必须要提醒有必要做"},{"start":614.654,"end":631.234,"text":"至少在告知上要让消费者知道他这个座位买了之后他可能被遮蔽的比例或是可能被遮蔽的部分我觉得这是有义务要这样子告知的因为这个是很严重的影响到消费者的权益他好不容易花那么多钱抢到一张票"},{"start":631.935,"end":641.284,"text":"結果發現他是看不到了他只能用聽的所以對他來講是一個非常委屈的事情我也希望說文化部要重視這個部分我會再追蹤那主席再給我一點時間我要呼應一下剛才疫情委員所講的關於影視中心影片修復這個問題"},{"start":648.251,"end":676.149,"text":"那有新聞指出說國家影視中心第二期的工程就是要興建作為典藏跟推廣影視的這個博物館目前是進度是停滯不前是因為我們文化部跟新北市政府對影視中心二期博物館的興建規劃有不同的意見那我在十月份的時候我有到影視中心考察我看到我們的同仁真的是非常努力的在做這些早期影視的修復那我們也很多早期的這些影視作品就是有"},{"start":677.029,"end":701.349,"text":"盡量的都去收回來典藏這個修復的工作非常辛苦他一格一格的在做膠捲的修復有時候一個月做不到十分鐘的進度這麼辛苦我們做出來的這些作品我們要有一個妥善的空間來收藏它的話影視中心第二期的這個工程就非常的重要母畫部現在跟新北市的溝通的狀況如何"},{"start":703.576,"end":732.637,"text":"跟委员报告一下我们也都知道那个典藏这个影片的重要性但是因为我们跟新北市沟通发生一个问题就是说他们希望我们的那个停车位的那个数量远远大于我们能够接受的情况而且当地的居民也不太希望它只是一个典藏库它会要求更多的这个空间展示什么那目前我们就卡在这个地方因为新北市非常坚持车位要多少"},{"start":733.197,"end":748.016,"text":"那那个几乎占掉我们三分之二的空间所以我在这个条件要求要830个在这个条件下我们如果盖一个这样的空间其实占据了大部分博物馆整体对对就是我们真的能够典藏的空间变得非常小"},{"start":748.376,"end":777.609,"text":"而且因為下挖地下室 到4樓的話還要搭建空橋 會增加一倍的經費嘛因為本來一盒的金額好像是45億後來經費來到將近90億那這個部分齁 我希望說文化部你們要妥善跟新北市政府溝通啦等一下下述這個期程那我希望說你們溝通之後你們有進度跟相關的期程這個計畫呢一份資料給我辦公室好 沒問題好 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝陳秀寶委員那部長 行政官員請回座"}]}},{"id":"17111","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17111","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d9c8519356ec592c2e158c00ce9ee59ced5e67b2ed5162375c9013661b7df01e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、次長王時思與轄下首長及國家通訊傳播委員會、財團法人公共電視文化事業基金會、財團法人中央通訊社、財團法人中央廣播電臺、客家電視台、臺語台、中華電視公司等代表列席就「公廣集團暨公視基金、央社、央廣之營運管理、預算績效，與新媒體策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【12月10日及11日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-10","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-10T08:32:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T13:10:00+08:00","duration":16624,"影片長度":"04:37:04","委員發言時間":"08:32:56 - 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bwd6"},{"start":1627.504,"end":1646.043,"text":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議報告委員會初席委員15人已足法定人數現在開會本週三四是一次會那首先進行報告事項請議事人員宣讀上次會議的議事錄"},{"start":1648.464,"end":1671.512,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期教育及文化委員會第九次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一四年十二月三日上午九時至十二時二十二分地點本院勤選樓101會議室出席委員柯孫委員等十五人列席委員鄭正全委員等十四人列席人員政務運動部政務次長黃啟黃率統有關人員主席陳昭吉委員秀寶報告事項一"},{"start":1672.532,"end":1694.823,"text":"宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定 二 運動部政務次長黃啟黃類洗酒如何落實並持續精進運動平權進行專題報告並備質詢本次議程有委員柯之恩等17人提出質詢 均經運動部政務次長黃啟黃及相關人員及其答覆說明另有委員林沛翔 黃姐 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辛苦了現在請黎遠部長進行報告報告時間6分鐘"},{"start":1945.613,"end":1961.636,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好感謝教育及文化委員會的邀請就公管集團及公視基金中央社樣管等營運管理預算績效與新媒體的策略提出報告"},{"start":1962.737,"end":1987.669,"text":"公共電視 中央通訊社及中央廣播電台作為國家重要的公共媒體 扮演很多重要的角色包含提供正確的資訊 促進文化多元維護公共利益 以及向國際呈現台灣的形象等等文化部依法 編列預算 並尊重其獨立自主的營運"},{"start":1989.218,"end":2010.423,"text":"近年三家法人皆在數位轉型及國際傳播方面加速投入在節目與新聞內容上也持續秉持客觀公正多元的核心價值在組織管理上也積極強化營運效率和人才培養"},{"start":2011.701,"end":2029.058,"text":"公共電視整合主頻、台語台、兒少台、小公視及客家台等頻道在戲劇、紀錄片、文化與兒少內容深耕獲獎表現亮眼"},{"start":2030.356,"end":2057.559,"text":"中央社透过国际新闻和影音内容拓展触及面对媒体市场的趋势也同步强化品牌营运跨域合作扩大影响力中央广播电台则结合多国语言广播Podcast网路影音等多渠道深化国际服务透过媒体试读计划扩大公共参与"},{"start":2059.334,"end":2082.673,"text":"並與國內外公共媒體合作推動多項國際交流三家法人都依照法規執行年度的預算公共電視基金會財務目前是健康平衡114年度到10月目前還呈現的是有結餘的並且投入多項的數位建設與節目製作"},{"start":2085.325,"end":2097.596,"text":"中央社受到媒体环境的冲击113年跟114年度均出现短促但仍然努力维持一定比例的自筹收入"},{"start":2098.717,"end":2121.584,"text":"并透过多元开源方式维持营运的稳定中央广播电台113年跟114年度也呈现短促但也透过专节开支与提升节目的授权合作计划等方式增加效益面对新媒体环境的快速转变"},{"start":2122.85,"end":2148.667,"text":"三家法人全面提升数位内容和平台经营能力塑造他们在媒体中不可取代性公共电视透过OTD平台公式加进行完整数位内容上架台语台及客家台也积极布局YouTube与AI应用扩展族群服务"},{"start":2149.775,"end":2164.8,"text":"中央社從官網內容轉型影音製作社群經營到多語的YouTube節目全面升級客製化不同長度與形式的新聞吸引不同世代的受眾"},{"start":2166.584,"end":2195.644,"text":"中央广播电台则结合广播网路影音直播等媒体形态发展像洞察中国这种在国际议题上具有指标性的专题内容吸引国内外观众文化部将持续与三家法人共同努力让国内外观众能够持续获得专业多元且优质的内容谢谢大家"},{"start":2201.024,"end":2206.193,"text":"接著請公共電視文化事業基金會董事長胡元輝先生報告報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2215.373,"end":2230.501,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生首先代表公廣集團全體同仁感謝各位委員對公共媒體發展的關切以及在過去這段時間所給予我們的協助與支持"},{"start":2232.122,"end":2248.096,"text":"國際公共媒體聯盟強調公共服務媒體對於資訊通達與成功運作的民主政體至為重要歐洲廣電聯盟也強調資金充足功能強大的公共服務媒體是民主社會的基石"},{"start":2249.059,"end":2264.998,"text":"面對不實訊息與仇恨言論日趨氾濫政商干預與民粹主義的挑戰日益嚴重的今天我們堅信開展公共對話追求公共利益的公共媒體是國家邁向卓越未來的"},{"start":2265.819,"end":2283.434,"text":"必要投资个人仅以这样的认知跟心情来向各位委员报告进行不吝指教公司基金会第七届董事会在2022年5月20号组成随后确立以感动国民跃动国际为愿景"},{"start":2284.508,"end":2300.209,"text":"积极推动阶段性组织再造与数位转型三年多来协力完成公示法修正实现多元族群及国际传播服务的法制化成立南部中心以平衡区域发展需求"},{"start":2301.03,"end":2326.127,"text":"此外我们更在2024年8月20号开播小公式以全媒体服务的方式让我国儿少内容的制作与传播迈入新的里程在感动国民月景的领导之下近年来公共集团节目内容的质语量都有明显的突破113年的金钟奖入围数破历史纪录共计128项"},{"start":2328.257,"end":2353.529,"text":"而且获得27个奖项那114年呢我们在更上层楼入围数达到148项得奖数高达31项已经超过了总项目的六成新闻方面而且也是旅服务大奖的肯定包括公示我们的岛在2023年荣获第12届总统文化奖的社会改革奖"},{"start":2354.289,"end":2366.218,"text":"公視東南亞語新聞榮獲今年卓越新聞獎的社會公器獎華視的新聞高峰會天選指導節目也榮獲2022年的金鐘獎自然科學計時節目獎"},{"start":2368.106,"end":2389.408,"text":"纪录片方面我们也是得奖年年以2024年为例游岛制岛或金马奖最佳纪录片及台北电影节百万首奖公务员这部纪录片或台湾竞赛及亚洲视野竞赛首奖也是在阿姆斯特丹的国际纪录片影展获得杰出艺术贡献奖"},{"start":2389.989,"end":2410.578,"text":"得奖不是我们唯一的工作指标也不是我们最重要的工作指标但是它代表着我们同仁的工作品质也一定程度反映了我们的内容影响力许多公事之友都亲口告诉我他们觉得台湾需要这样子的公共媒体我与公广集团的同仁都深受感动"},{"start":2411.533,"end":2431.035,"text":"在越动国际方面的推进,以戏剧为例,公广集团多部戏剧不仅引领台湾影视的风潮,而且成功拓展了国际的市场,譬如《人与选之人照亮者》在Netflix全球上线,也掀起了社会运动的风潮,荣获金钟奖最佳聚集。"},{"start":2432.233,"end":2459.483,"text":"获得到第七届亚洲内容大奖与全球OTD大奖的画外之一不仅成功进军欧洲影展而且在越南及印尼的OTD平台同步播映时代剧听海泳的成为台湾首部入围法国Series Mania的国际全景竞赛单元影集而且在第六十届金钟奖获得14项入围拿下最佳迷你剧集等五项大奖"},{"start":2460.219,"end":2472.93,"text":"不只是内容方面跃动国际公广集团也积极参与国际性组织与国际活动致力成为具代表性与影响力的国际公共媒体成员除了我们在2023年主办世界公示大展"},{"start":2473.749,"end":2502.437,"text":"那之外公視總經理跟同仁分別受邀擔任國際公共媒體聯盟世界公視大展的董事以及慕尼黑兒少影展諮詢委員會的諮詢委員為國際交流做出貢獻最後要特別說明的是公廣集團深知在傳播科技與視聽環境快速變遷的年代必須加速數位轉型開展多平台公共服務所以特別在2023年的1月成立了數位內容部"},{"start":2503.237,"end":2529.586,"text":"积极提升数位能量并且扩大公司Plus的OTT平台服务各项数据都显示公广集团在各数位平台的浏览次数与时数近年来都呈现了倍数的成长由于时间的关系所以只能挑选几个重要的项目向委员报告其他请参考顺便报告并请委员多多给我们指导我们知道还有很多不足的地方我们会继续检讨改进谢谢"},{"start":2532.52,"end":2539.528,"text":"好 謝謝胡董事長的報告那現在請中央通訊社社長胡婉寧進行報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2551.212,"end":2575.757,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生我在這裡也代表中央社的同仁向各位說明也感謝各位委員的支持首先我提到整體營運狀況中央社秉持正確客觀領先和詳實來處理新聞我們不媚俗也不流於內容農場我們有執行三項三大法定任務第一任務是辦理國內外新聞業務服務大眾傳播媒體"},{"start":2578.217,"end":2599.475,"text":"那麼我們今年幾項突破包括我們本社獨家研發的AI編輯助手作為優化我們的新聞編輯流程然後今年的5月5號開始我們在中文的YouTube頻道推出每日的午間新聞跟晚間新聞另外在印尼語的YouTube上面頻道上我們推出了Jalan Jalan跟Run Taiwan兩檔節目"},{"start":2601.004,"end":2614.882,"text":"而且成功地跨入了印尼當地的媒體LibTown6官網露出另外 中央社今年也獲得了社會光明面報道獎台灣攝影大獎 台灣醫療獎還有文創產業新聞獎而且首度入圍亞洲電視獎和亞洲影藝創意大獎"},{"start":2617.705,"end":2641.223,"text":"我們的第二個任務是辦理國家對外新聞通訊業務促進國際對台灣的瞭解那麼中央社透過英文 日文 印尼文當然還有我們的中文多語向全球傳遞可靠跟深度的訊息那麼這幾年中央社外文報導的引用率是穩健成長今年到現在為止 上個月為止被引用率已經超越了去年的全年"},{"start":2642.577,"end":2662.326,"text":"同时我们也积极跟国际媒体互动,今年还举办了中秋外媒茶会,有35家的外媒,50多人出席。今年还跟印尼的Libetown6,跟波兰的PAP国家通讯社签订了有合作通讯备忘录,还有跟乌克兰Interfact通讯社展开接触。"},{"start":2663.266,"end":2688.86,"text":"那麼接下來報告有關這個預算績效預算是中央社很頭痛的問題目前面臨諸多考驗包括114年政府補助基本營運收入在立法院砍了5%少了1600萬那麼人事費我們受到考機進行的調整每年要增加650萬所以我們的人事費是逐年在增加另外中央社對國內外媒體提供稿費"},{"start":2690.339,"end":2712.335,"text":"但這兩年因為這個網路發達抄襲比較容易這個113年到114年之間退訂的稿費已經超過了1000萬預期未來也不太樂觀這收入可能會下滑另外全球通膨也導致我們海外駐點的租金交通跟生活費都上漲所以比較艱辛那我們做了幾個作為在處理第一個是"},{"start":2713.435,"end":2733.292,"text":"第二个是开源那节流部分呢我们持续节省各项开支至少有280万已经确定是减下来包括我们一般的业务性的事务费还有奖金的核发额度还有津贴的额度另外我社长的坐车跟司机都解聘好"},{"start":2734.659,"end":2750.789,"text":"另外加强人力的控管我们本来114年编制是405人实际转控人数现在已经逾期不补的情况下到了390人以下组织精简从113年的12个中心到114年精简到11个中心那开源的部分呢"},{"start":2751.289,"end":2778.101,"text":"我们今年5月起推出了午间晚间两节影音新闻增加YouTube的量提升了广告分润现在每个月的分润可以超过23万元我们现在的分润营收是去年的同期的8倍以上另外我们结合了网站出版品影片开始做专案制作比去年也增加了768万有关相关的我是海外特派员等等的品牌活动比去年增加了619万"},{"start":2780.165,"end":2799.979,"text":"但是我们要说即使中央社已经积极提升自筹的收入降低原额编制但是这个AI的进化媒体抄袭盛行社稿订户陆续流失20年来损失已经超过了7000万元这两年来订户更是雪崩式的降低再加上人事考机禁运"},{"start":2800.379,"end":2825.429,"text":"新制度每年增加650萬10年就增加了6500萬所以我們是面臨非常嚴峻的考驗也很希望未來政府能夠提升對我們的補助至於中央通訊社的新媒體策略我們是有所為有所不為我們也制定了AI生成式AI的應用指南禁止不當的運用生成式AI的內容禁止處理"},{"start":2827.09,"end":2846.884,"text":"業務機密也禁止使用AI來進行違反法律或善良風俗的事務那麼以上就是我今天的專案報告內容不盡詳盡的地方我們還有專刊我們印好的資料講義請大家參考非常謝謝好 謝謝胡婉玲社長"},{"start":2849.775,"end":2872.965,"text":"那各相關機關所提的書面資料就請大家委員一併參閱那現在進行詢答每位出席委員的質詢時間是6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席時間列席委員的質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止的時間是上午30分委員如果有臨時提案請在"},{"start":2874.746,"end":2896.546,"text":"10点30分前提出将与本会委员吴佩义质询之后随即进行处理处理提案时若提案委员及邻属委员不在场的话原例就不处理首先请发言第一位登记的柯志恩委员质询"},{"start":2902.961,"end":2905.183,"text":"謝謝趙偉 我們是不是請黎院部長柯委員你好好 部長好因為今天趙偉排的這個時程所以我們昨天開了一個公式的預備會議既然開了預備會議 表示要開始審查那事實上我們從過去就一直在問他是在5月就應該出來也是說去年的這個時候就應該有名單出來請問現在卡關在什麼地方"},{"start":2932.942,"end":2948.93,"text":"跟委員報告我們在去年11月就開始啟動這個下一屆這個委員的政選那這個我們有公文可以作證然後從去年11月開始啟動到現在中間所遇到的問題在上一次"},{"start":2949.73,"end":2973.177,"text":"好幾次你都回答過了所以現在目前進度怎麼樣你上次說找不到人現在又是在準備中那現在到底是怎麼樣告訴那個委員好消息昨天我們剛剛開過一個預備會議那就表示說我們已經開始可以往下進行這個審議了好 到什麼時候這個董監事名單都可以出來包括董事長名單其實我們就等這個下一波要開始審議的時候什麼時候"},{"start":2974.337,"end":2993.223,"text":"看那个审议会什么时候开审议会什么时候开名单其实我们当然是随时准备好那审议会所以已经有了嘛董事长还有这些所有的名单里面都已经有附案了嘛行政院也应该知道嘛甚至总统也都已经知道了嘛如果我们启动这个如果我们启动这个审查委员的预备会议的话就表示我们差不多了"},{"start":2993.763,"end":3010.635,"text":"对 因为已经很久了我觉得你们这样难产其实压缩到很多的时间我们这样生生逼迫你们就可以比较深深的改这些都是不符合法规的所以说部长还是要注意一下我们期待下次我在站在这个台上互相面对面的时候已经有名单出现了好不好"},{"start":3011.055,"end":3030.311,"text":"我们情绪就有时间出现了好 接下来我们今天谈这个公广因为公媒的这个你当过华社的总经理你问英国非常多了而且被称为最懂公共媒体的这个文化部长那我想请问这个部长你上任这么久来你对于文化部所辖的公共媒体的表现你个人满意吗"},{"start":3030.987,"end":3046.106,"text":"我觉得从1998年开始部长我们不要从盘古开天好不好你满不满意不是你满不满意好像没有办法yes no我觉得刚刚听到各位各位在场都听到我们的媒体所以你虽然是满意的就对了我觉得我算满意"},{"start":3046.226,"end":3065.728,"text":"你算滿意但是還有很多問題從你任內開始從當華視總經理到現在你都已經變成了文化部長了很多問題還是沒有解決我還是要再問一次因為華視自從公共化累積虧損是35到40以前我就教育你的時候你都已經講出它有天生的一個宿命但是你看財務狀況沒有改沒有"},{"start":3066.949,"end":3095.107,"text":"改善了亏损2.4到3亿啊然后我可以看出我调列出这个部分来如果你没有这个大陆的租赁的话一年的收入可以有3.5亿的话你恐怕一年就要亏损达到6亿这没有错吧好那我们就来看一下啊华氏因为经营不善亏损连连哦现金流量不够据说在11月的时候又跟华南银行增加借款3亿元嘛所以说呢目前执押借款华氏光复大陆已经超过40亿了"},{"start":3095.447,"end":3110.932,"text":"所以部長你知道嗎很多人說這個華視的光復大樓現在已經改名變成華銀光復大樓了你跟他借著40億在那個地方最有趣的是你賴以為生的這個金雞母你竟然被貼上了建築物公共安全展不合格的場所部長你知道哪裡不合格嗎你們在門口被貼上這個我因為我們基於文化部沒有去干預這個公共媒體我還沒有看到你已經被貼上了這個不合格你們的金雞母被貼上不合格它貼在華視我沒有看到"},{"start":3125.507,"end":3152.851,"text":"现在就已经贴在那个地方我跟部长报告一下为什么我会关注这样的问题因为建管处跟消防局已经多次来做检查然后你们都不符合的标准因为你们很多内部你们所租借的房客里面非常多的装修跟原大陆的设计不符合而且消防安检也因为设计状况也不符合规定所以建管处还有消防局已经多次的来做这个部分里面不见改善所以就给你贴上了这样的一个标示"},{"start":3153.371,"end":3170.21,"text":"我为什么要提出这个问题呢因为香港的洪福院已经发生这么个状况你里面有这么多的承包的这个部分你现在发生这样的状况让人家感觉里面就只是要租然后赚的钱然后也不管你家里面的安全设备华氏会不会变成一个黑心房东啊"},{"start":3171.041,"end":3189.12,"text":"这个听起来好像有点蛮严重的是不是请那个董事长来报告因为这点我还真的不太知道所以说你完全不顾别人那个安全而且我据说因为你们如果真的要来做一个更新的话可能要花上上千万所以一拖再拖一拖再拖被人家贴上这样一个标识"},{"start":3189.54,"end":3208.576,"text":"跟委員報告就我了解它是有兩個租戶那我們有非常多的租戶那他們在做室內裝潢的時候沒有向政府做申請所以現在都已經在改善目前狀況應該很快就我看到什麼時候會經過這個部分把它拿下來因為這個正是它是你的經濟目你沒有所以說呢這個"},{"start":3209.657,"end":3227.257,"text":"所以到底华氏未来是要买回民股还是要做商业化我不晓得你们有什么样的想法因为已经被折磨了20年了每年在亏好像都不太怕因为你们可以把你们的金积木拿出外面借即使它安检不通过而且最主要是很多人认为它是一个黄金地段"},{"start":3227.757,"end":3244.24,"text":"所以说呢你只要到时候以资产把它活化处理掉到时候来出售这个部分利益是非常的惊人我们也不希望达到这个程度可是华氏的问题没有办法解决部长你都当过总经理你都对他有一份的情感你可不可以终止华氏被折磨20年的噩梦啊"},{"start":3247.015,"end":3259.006,"text":"關於華視的問題包括我們每次提到不同的議題譬如說民股買回或者資產活化因為它涉及到很多這種法律上的問題你說它被折磨20年"},{"start":3260.663,"end":3279.664,"text":"我本來以為就在我那個時候要結束了它能夠拖20年你可以想像作為一個政府機關大家想盡辦法在不同的時候撥預算給它還是沒有辦法解決所以沒有辦法解決我的意思就是說你都已經當過你非常清楚裡面的生態你都沒有辦法解決我們真的不用期待下面的人可以解決"},{"start":3280.225,"end":3305.077,"text":"他就会是一直是质询台上面大家拿出来的问的一个问题好不好显然目前为止我没有得到我希望的一个答案我们马上进入下一个有关台湾plus的部分因为台湾plus有没有达到节目第一年新播率的25%的一个承诺因为NCC曾经表示你们需要如此可是我们看你们的年报去年台湾plus还有1029小时今年直播的时数"},{"start":3305.777,"end":3315.6,"text":"比去年還要低只有975小時所以說你告訴我你要逐年你們報告裡面所寫的要在逐年提升自製產量為目標顯然沒有嘛"},{"start":3317.128,"end":3335.74,"text":"而且呢我這樣看一下你們公開資訊如果這樣子一年975小時然後呢這樣的算法的話幾乎每天的新制的節目大概只有2.67小時一般我們來說的話黃金我們看電視的時間大概4個小時左右你一天只有2.67完全是不符合標準的來部長"},{"start":3336.681,"end":3354.975,"text":"而且我们一年还是花了8亿其实跟委员报告这的确是但是委员应该也了解当我们的预算被砍多少的时候我们节目就没有能力做多少一年8亿没有办法产出这么多吗减少2亿多的话节目真的少很多其实我们台湾Plus预算是被砍非常多的"},{"start":3355.555,"end":3375.97,"text":"台灣plus被砍非常多就是因為大家從數字來說法它沒有辦法包括它的點播率等等還有包括不管是台灣plus還有包括你的客家台台語台很多的新節目的比例都達不到我們所說的一個標準那我上次已經特別質詢過了我到目前為止我們看了一下這個月沒有呈現一個結果"},{"start":3377.051,"end":3406.611,"text":"所以这才是为什么这就是环环相扣的当你的绩效达不到的时候我们在预算上当然就会有一些的表示然后你没有办法提出一些方式的话那当然是你就没有办法得到这就是环环相扣的你总要告诉我们一个解决的方式对不对我们的时间实在太短了但是目前来说你也没有办法公开承诺可以让你的自具力达到25%甚至更高不要目前远远都是停播在重播这个到预算的时候还是会问到这样的问题"},{"start":3407.631,"end":3423.596,"text":"而且这本来就是NCC本来就讲嘛本来就要达到25这是法定上规定的嘛你们没有办法达到然后又说我们这个所谓的运算不够这个东西你该怎么解决我们还是无解啊部长你制作节目出身的你应该很清楚这个问题啊"},{"start":3424.946,"end":3450.961,"text":"就是因為我做過節目所以隨著現在那種節目的費用越來越貴只要在立法院被砍砍到一兩億錢所以說你告訴我如果說我的立法院的這個費用不砍的話你可以承諾到25到30我覺得差太多了因為你如果一兩億給我們的話那個節目的製作量真的多很多這點是非常現實的不能夠因為我們沒有達到你就繼續扛我們的預算繼續扛我們的預算我們就惡性循環"},{"start":3451.601,"end":3475.094,"text":"没有台湾plus砍预算的原因不是只有在于你们制作不到25%它还有非常多等一下还是有很多委员会根据这个部分来做一个部分所以这个东西的这个到底是谁是因谁是果我觉得部长带回去包括我刚刚所提到的华氏到目前为止的台湾plus我都没有得到一个很满意的一个答复最后我只问一个对不起那个赵伟"},{"start":3475.794,"end":3489.944,"text":"目前為止台灣plus過去內容都是偽製而且大概就用藝文採購的名義完全是規避了政府採購法所規定的公開範圍我只問部長你知道台灣plus進入公廣集團之後內容偽製有幾件是公開招標的嗎"},{"start":3491.246,"end":3513.657,"text":"這我不太清楚一件只有一件所以說你完全用這樣的一個方式所以就這樣的方式到底會不會造成一些所謂有一些的違規違法的目前的一個狀況是否都是採用這樣的藝文採購而且你們完全是用這個完全是規避這個有沒有違法有沒有來集合我都希望根據內部的一個方式"},{"start":3514.477,"end":3539.671,"text":"台灣plus也有被來做這個審核有沒有違法到底後續的一個處理狀況怎麼樣我今天在質詢台上沒有辦法時間的關係但是我需要你給我一個非常完整的素面報告因為這些都是我們所看到的一個問題而且有非常多人跟我們來做這樣的澄清跟舉報我不要在這邊公開說但請給我一個完整的一個報告可以嗎可以沒問題好謝謝好謝謝柯子文委員官員請回座"},{"start":3547.267,"end":3562.388,"text":"好現在我們請劉淑冰委員好有請李部長請部長"},{"start":3567.825,"end":3591.777,"text":"劉委員你好部長好我們看到11月5號的時候您已經在立法院告知目前的公共電視文化基金會的董事的名單當中你們當時說的是差了一個人目前的進度剛才說昨天有開會對不對現在的進度當中預計是盡快的會送出去對不對"},{"start":3593.837,"end":3619.63,"text":"到那個規定就是我們成立了這個審議委員會之後當我們的名單已經差不多出來的時候那現在這一位大概補足了嗎夠了已經差不多了就是因為當我們的這個審議委員會會開預備會議他們就開始討論下一次什麼時候開始審議然後我們就在四單的時候會公佈名單所以您剛才問的問題最後一位補足那個我們在四單的時候就公佈全部的名單"},{"start":3620.751,"end":3638.711,"text":"讓整個社會看到現在有一個問題我們看到在公共電視法第13條裡面有講到有員工代表的董事那是由公視基金會的企業工會來去推派那請問一下公視這邊有沒有已經準備好了一個一個工會的董事代表有有有已經有了"},{"start":3639.272,"end":3658.879,"text":"所以這個名單目前還不能公佈因為還在審議因為這次代表的是跟工會跟公視的支持他是員工工會所推選產生那這個名單已經出來了已經出來了所以這個名單已經出來了就一位嗎還是一位好那這個大家就可以再繼續追蹤另外部長我再請教您"},{"start":3660.339,"end":3677.504,"text":"上次的時候我也問到是說可以採取這種中選會的方式這樣子提名的方式去跟各政黨來徵詢那包括是在公共電視法的第三條第五項也提到這邊那您後來說你會回去思考那這邊你們現在就是怎麼樣的一個方向呢"},{"start":3678.766,"end":3693.631,"text":"按照公司法規定這個名單一定要由行政院提出來然後我們文化部就是一個幕僚單位然後由立法院按照那個比例選出重新再產生一個"},{"start":3694.887,"end":3716.346,"text":"社會公正原始我的意思是說他有一個一定的程序然後政黨比例只能選出那個評議委員那評議委員在審查我們所提的名單如果對名單有意見或者怎麼樣的話就有一個直播對外非常公開"},{"start":3717.046,"end":3733.669,"text":"因為在公共廣播集團的董事跟監事他地位是很崇高的他必須要一個社會公正人士選拔的過程中好你就是會兼顧到這個重黨所以剛剛提到那個郵政黨比例那個是不符合原來公共電視法的"},{"start":3735.03,"end":3757.8,"text":"他是說比例不能超過4分之1就是他已經有這樣的規定了就是有注意到這個部分那我們繼續往下看我看到是說公視的經營績效在113年的確有改善是正的是盈餘的但是我們現在到114年看到是目前是正的但是你在115年的預算的部分那你有提到是預計會虧損那為什麼會預計有虧損的情形呢"},{"start":3761.201,"end":3778.302,"text":"還包括自籌款的這一部分這個績效也是很重要的您這邊回答一下還包括這樣版權的營收大概會賺多少因為這也是產業說公視真的是有在有自籌款的這樣一個能力這個部分因為涉及到明年的編的預算我是不是請公視董事長來回答好 請吳董事長"},{"start":3784.281,"end":3795.073,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們的財務我們基本上來講都是按照第一個是政府捐贈的部分加上我們對製作館的預估收入然後來進行整體預算的規劃"},{"start":3796.567,"end":3815.932,"text":"那政府的這個捐贈收入當然還要看大院的審核率您說的是我現在說預計我們當初會想說會虧損你們現在113年已經是正的請您要針對問題要回答其實我們這幾年有出現虧損的主要原因第一個就是任列華市的虧損"},{"start":3816.972,"end":3833.167,"text":"那因為我們擁有83%左右的華氏股份所以華氏的虧損我們必須認定不過那個不會影響到公司的現金的一個運用所以它直接上是並不會造成公司財務運作上的困難就等華氏再去把它處理就好了"},{"start":3833.467,"end":3855.086,"text":"那自筹款的部分应该现在刚刚是有大概七八趴这种情况那这个会再增加吗如果是增加是往哪些方向发展是跟委员报告自筹款的收入最主要的差异其实就是版权收入的部分当我们有比较多的戏剧产出那这些在全球或台湾的版权收入就会比较高"},{"start":3855.746,"end":3872.102,"text":"那其他部分當然還是有受到一些影響譬如說前兩年當我們的公司法修正之後造成的所以你們現在還是沒有一個數據要呈現就是說大概往方向目標這個部分去呈現當然我們還是努力要增加我們請總經理來說一下增加目標"},{"start":3873.302,"end":3897.407,"text":"好的 其實我們自籌款主要幾個來源一個就是版權收入一個是租金的收入另外就是捐贈的收入那其實目前影響它的大水位的主要是版權收入因為我們版權收入大概佔我們所有自籌款的三分之二所以這個版權收入跟當年戲劇的這個銷售有關所以113那麼高其實是我的婆婆怎麼那麼可愛的二"},{"start":3897.887,"end":3913.927,"text":"他其实是销售的版权成绩是非常好的所以你们预计应该是未来有机会要变成正的对不对希望目前你们现在得这么久因为得奖并不等于就是要还是收视率或是说他的版权办得出来是的那我们预期是希望如此谢谢那大概有几部片子呢"},{"start":3915.068,"end":3939.63,"text":"其实明年大概是两部其实我们以我们的目前能量一年大概自制的都是两部左右那所以这个两部也涉及到我们投资的资金比例我们投资资金越高回收占比也就越高所以其实现在业界的这个制作费越来越高的状况之下其实这个先回收的这个困难度其实也是越来越高但是我们是跟业界一起努力打拼谢谢"},{"start":3939.65,"end":3963.47,"text":"好希望達到這個目標但我們看到剛才說的113年的這個53.33億可是這部分華視的到底它的虧損是多少這部分我想因為我的其他還有很多議題我就先請到時候請公視的董事長是不是可以請之後來部分這個做回答好謝謝我們現在看另外一個您所問的問題很大的一個問題數位轉型是你們重要的一個目標嗎"},{"start":3964.491,"end":3979.861,"text":"但是它數位轉型它很重要的是需要配合CDM的內容傳輸網路那這邊就問一下請問在你做OTT的這個經營上面有很大的網路的CDM的成本那公視在這邊CDM的支出預算是多少我還是請董事長或總經理來回答"},{"start":3983.527,"end":3997.606,"text":"好像沒有馬上補位是不是這邊缺乏總經理許總經理回答這個其實是非常的高我們其實一年因為我們非常多部門都需要所以大概一個月都是幾百萬"},{"start":3998.447,"end":4014.703,"text":"甚至一千萬左右的支出所以你們是用初租的還是用自己建置的都是租的自己建置的部分非常少自己建置的是我們內部的資料這個沒有辦法上雲但是像我們經營公事家這些就是其實是需要雲的這個部分這個是用租的"},{"start":4015.203,"end":4040.303,"text":"是用租的所以這個價格已經知道那現在連包括說因為是OTT的關係所以你們的部分有提到公司家啦公司新聞網小公視啦等等的甚至台灣plus這些部分可是我覺得最重要的是這些數據啊都是點閱率啊我們現在很重要的是說有沒有一個有效的營運績效指標的建立啊因為這邊的觀看數據裡面如果只看點閱率甚至包括是有"},{"start":4040.723,"end":4068.574,"text":"追蹤數 追蹤數跟活躍定物跟停留時間這部分其實都不夠呈現深度的一個了解啊這部分怎麼回答呢其實我們在這個數位指標上都有設定KPI所以其實我們除了這個點閱率之外我們還有一個很要求就是所謂的加薪率也就是說他收看這個然後願意因為看這個已經成為公視會員所以這個也是我們的指標之一所以我們對於每個節目其實是有這個部分喔對"},{"start":4069.554,"end":4089.785,"text":"你有做但是我現在變成說有效的有效的這些出去尤其是我要想的就是你們講到小公視這邊小公視一個很大的問題我先說一下小公視的問題它事實上是一個無線數位頻道對不對那它有針對尤其是無線是全國都可以覆蓋的它的平均的收視率是怎麼樣你們跟Nelson要做比較嗎Nelson的這個數據"},{"start":4090.325,"end":4119.064,"text":"出現嗎沒有其實小公視我們是沒有買尼爾森收視率的為什麼因為尼爾森收視率他的這個4到9歲的樣本可以說是非常非常少但是他是跟華視放在一起的對不對同一個平台同樣一個12無線的電視台你說頻道嗎對頻道在無線其實我們現在在有線電視系統裡面小公視是大概每個系統台不一樣有的在200有的在121有的在80幾台所以其實我們已經"},{"start":4121.506,"end":4143.269,"text":"無線台它是對那個frequency是比較接近對在華市附近無線台只有18台所以如果是12的話如果是無線台是全國都收跟有線是不一樣的啊但是有線接收的人非常的少大部分都是有線接收甚至是網路收看其實現在兒童用網路收看的比例非常非常的高"},{"start":4144.827,"end":4162.652,"text":"我就是說這邊請你要做出來這樣子的一個請公共電視給這些的像你們所說的OPTT的平台這邊的包括了這有效的觀看數據的要呈現出來做個報告然後還有自製委託跟外購的比例尤其是跟那小公視我自己本身是公視之友我承認我蠻喜歡看的"},{"start":4164.372,"end":4190.49,"text":"但是卻呈現到是說你們給我的公視只有當中我特別看到的我如果有四頁的內容當中兩頁就是指的是外國買的品的內容這部分我希望引到自製委託跟外購的比例一定要呈現出來下次就是下次給我報告好另外這部分有個很重要的問題是在於公視準備拿國發基金38億去做IP的開發投資這部分有嗎"},{"start":4194.752,"end":4201.533,"text":"這個不是IP的投資這個是應該是講哪一個我卻不能確定它是哪一張"},{"start":4203.149,"end":4223.388,"text":"我們在委員所提的這個我們真的不曉得有這個案子那不過我們最近是有個案子跟文化部在討論也向相關的部會因為你們自己在報告當中有說IP建制是你們一個重要第三項的內容喔那是IP based broadcasting那個是IP化IP的呼籲計畫"},{"start":4225.55,"end":4241.748,"text":"IP的呼吁是另外一件事那是包括内容的IP的呼吁但我们并没有这个案子那我们在另外一个比较大的案子那是在做基础建设的IP化AI化跟平台化的好 所以这部分就"},{"start":4242.509,"end":4270.181,"text":"我們不曉得這個案子但是必須強調的是如果新聞能夠傳到這個新聞的話因為IP的開發的確花很多錢好 再請現在的主席等我一下下這有一個很大的問題在說看到的是在台灣Plus裡面出現到它在松江路的辦公室跟它的設置器材的攝影棚裡面它是放在一個淡黃區這個城中的非常重要的地方在南京松江捷運上面"},{"start":4271.161,"end":4289.723,"text":"那每年的租金包括相關的設備等等的放置是一年兩千萬這部分如果你的真正用辦公室才六十坪可是黃金地段做的放置只有五百五十坪在放置這是符合效率的原則嗎如果你像華氏這部分如果移過去那邊有空間不是很好嗎"},{"start":4290.715,"end":4310.572,"text":"跟委員報告我們在那裡的坪數是561坪但扣掉公共設施以後實際使用是343坪其中裡面包括36坪的攝影棚12坪的機房員工大概160位是在將近不到200坪的空間裡面使用所以我們那邊有160多位同仁在上班還有40多位在華市上班"},{"start":4310.572,"end":4332.989,"text":"好 你們這樣的部分喔 因為跟我們看到媒體的這個消息是不太一樣的提供是我們提供給委員的 給委員正確的數據好 這邊要呈現出來 不然真的會呈現說是最貴的一個攝影棚跟器材室的一個方向 因為放在這麼重要的位置沒有 那不是倉庫 那是現在有160多位同仁在上班的主要辦公空間好 那這一部分呢還有就是要請一下 謝謝 我們現在請的是胡萬寧社長抱歉喔 這個稍微 主席"},{"start":4341.087,"end":4342.447,"text":"很快就結束吳社長因為您上次針對我在11月5號的問題有回應的那現在有個問題是在於提出來的這個辦法就是你們最近在11月11號有做了一個海外派駐人員的設施海外派駐人員的一個辦法對不對"},{"start":4368.234,"end":4394.35,"text":"那這個辦法當中其實最重要是依照說社務的需要跟國際形象的需求對不對那這個地方有沒有客觀的一個更具體的一個在委員會上面去做一個針對這邊提出來的一個標準其實報告委員最理想的狀況是如果我們作為台灣的媒體能夠在全世界每個地方都放的人是最理想我們最大的受限還是來自於經費不足所以我們才會考慮分級"},{"start":4395.731,"end":4424.018,"text":"那麼比方像美國這個華盛頓很重要你們華盛頓發了三四個這幾個比方像布魯塞爾這是歐盟的中心那麼英國 法國 德國都很重要這個我們就優先派任我們自己的人那其他的就案件記仇特約的方式盡量爭取更多的人數派出不同的好 但是你們剛剛在報告當中我有聽到一個印尼是你們這次有發生用印尼語對不對可是在就算是派駐人員或者是在"},{"start":4425.058,"end":4446.127,"text":"案件記仇本都沒有印尼的人士到底是發生什麼事情不夠嗎報告委員最近我才剛剛在十幾天前親自跑了印尼一趟一方面是去參加亞洲電視獎大家請節制一下時間好不好簡短回答因為印尼政府現在已經不允許所有外籍人士去擔任他們在當駐地記者包括"},{"start":4447.768,"end":4471.246,"text":"CNN两个月前他们的记者都被禁止采访所以我们现在正在努力争取曾经留台毕业生印尼籍因为印尼是单一国籍所以我们正在处理现在有些街头有些人选才开始但我们都希望这个原则是这些人在台湾受过教育也懂台湾的文化能够用中文灵魂运用我想希望在开春以后就能找到人"},{"start":4471.866,"end":4487.617,"text":"好 謝謝就經過中央社我覺得蠻好的一個報告就是在於他之前就承認的把我們的回應就是我們集中的問題做了回應誠實絕對有這種虧損的問題那就請大家就是在文化部裡面相關的就繼續再努力 謝謝好 謝謝我們接下來是不是請萬美玲委員"},{"start":4505.37,"end":4522.976,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請林遠部長還有我們公視的胡董事長有請林遠部長部長我想我一樣要請教一下"},{"start":4530.917,"end":4545.479,"text":"我們有關於上個月的時候本席有質詢請教您說我們現在新任的公視的董事因為延宕了一年多我相信您也很急然後上一次有講說只差一個人對不對"},{"start":4546.36,"end":4565.192,"text":"然後現在這一個人是已經確定了邮補期了是嗎是 就是我們昨天已經開了一個評審委員的預備會議那通常開預備會議就表示任何時候都可以開評審會了那在要開評審會之前我們一定要把這個名單交給評審委員"},{"start":4567.473,"end":4581.582,"text":"我理解所以我們現在上個月您說的這一個人現在是把他補齊了嗎那本席就很好奇了就說如果我們已經把他補齊了當然因為召委是這個12月2號的時候把這個議程排出來了那我看你們4號就啟動了這個所謂的這個9號要開預備會議我覺得"},{"start":4587.806,"end":4601.678,"text":"滿呼應召委在這個二號排案之後呢你們就趕快來做這個預備會議但是呢今天聽到也有好消息是說人選出來了不過這個人選既然已經出來了我們延宕一年多了那為什麼還不趕快公佈呢"},{"start":4603.024,"end":4622.054,"text":"公布的話按照規定要先給評審委員先拿到之後我們就公布所以他們還沒拿到還沒拿到那你這個人選什麼時候出來的其實我心裡很急因為我很想公布不然我會背負著一直不公布名單的壓力你可以說沒有關係啊名單我不能說啊名單不能說那你什麼時候有這個名單的"},{"start":4624.415,"end":4633.228,"text":"我什麼時候有這個名單啊我有這個名單已經一年左右了不是不是我說你現在補齊了嘛什麼時候補齊哪一天補齊的什麼時候補齊就是其實我跟你講句實話難道在這要講假話嗎"},{"start":4641.297,"end":4655.746,"text":"我隨時要補齊 隨時就要退出你知道我是很難嗎 就是不是啦 部長我是想請教您一下因為上個月的時候您說差一位嘛那現在今天說補齊了我想知道在這一個月當中是30天前就補齊還是昨天才補齊是什麼時候補齊的"},{"start":4656.887,"end":4681.506,"text":"當然是以前就補期就是當你們一直在質詢的時候其實我們一直在談我並沒有因為部長我跟你講喔這一定要跟你問清楚因為上個月在這裡喔你那時候說差一個嘛對不對那這一個在這一個月當中你是哪一天補期的哪一天我忘了但是我多久前一個禮拜十年絕對不是為了這個沒有關係大概多久前你告訴我嘛很早啦大概三個禮拜前啦"},{"start":4682.574,"end":4709.375,"text":"好 还有三个礼拜前既然三个礼拜前都把人都已经这个名单出来也补齐了那为什么现在还没有办法送这个您刚刚所说的这个评审委员要看然后没有办法赶快公布为什么还要再耽搁三个礼拜其实官司约评审委员见面开预备会议这件事情就非常不容易我们给了非常多的时间最后终于还勉强抽到了人数比较多的那一天好 没关系那天刚好就是"},{"start":4710.175,"end":4730.987,"text":"昨天所以各位不要擔心以為說我是故意其實不會不會不會我們不會擔心你是故意啦但我只擔心我不擔心故不故意這件事我擔心的是一直延宕下去這件事是比較重要所以今天有這個好消息其實算一半就說人有補齊但是能不能部長什麼時候名單會出來你可以預告一個時間嗎我其實跟委員報告"},{"start":4734.469,"end":4745.014,"text":"我為什麼找不到這麼多足夠的我不想聽你的心情我想知道一下這個名單大概什麼時候會出來如果能夠公佈我恨不得現在公佈但是按照規定我必須等到評審委員拿到這個才行"},{"start":4750.696,"end":4776.719,"text":"來來 董事長我想我們公視新任董事的提名作業已經延宕一年多了今天當然有這個算一半的好消息但是你看我們大家擔心到什麼程度就連現任的公視董事會都在11月21號決議要發函給行政院希望行政院要加速進行公視基金會董監事換屆改組的一個作業那董事長請教您一下我們現在發函給行政院之後行政院有回覆嗎"},{"start":4779.364,"end":4794.412,"text":"行政院已經收到我們的函件還沒有收到正式的回覆所以你看我們11月給他現在也已經就是12月多了那我們被行政院已讀不回你會不會覺得沒有被尊重啊"},{"start":4795.835,"end":4810.097,"text":"行政院有聯繫說他們收到以後他們說已經跟文化部只是還沒有回覆沒有正式的書面回覆那他有口頭跟你回覆不是跟我 他是跟我們的秘書室所以有口頭回覆"},{"start":4811.756,"end":4833.977,"text":"我想应该可能会有个书面吧但我们还没说到好了 我跟你讲那个部长还有这个董长我觉得我们在问这个过程当中我觉得你可能有百般的无奈那这个行政院已读不回也好然后我们终于延长这么久我知道你们急但急是心情上但我觉得事实上作业要再快一点那接下来我想请教一下董长"},{"start":4834.717,"end":4851.09,"text":"我们在第七届董事会的任期原本到今年的5月3日一码我们看到公示的官网上也放上第七届董事三年的成果报告我想请教一下胡董事长您对您自己的董事会过去的成绩公广集团的团队您是满意的吗"},{"start":4852.533,"end":4877.33,"text":"我非常感謝所有董監事在我們定定的三年目標跟策略方針上努力做給自己團隊打幾分我想我們不應該自己打成績應該交給全民來打我說你幫他們打成績耶你自己的團隊你給你的團隊打我的責任應該是最大所以恐怕也不好幫所以你也沒辦法肯定他們沒辦法打個好成績給他們我剛才已經講非常感謝他們在這一段時間所以只有感謝沒有肯定是不是"},{"start":4878.691,"end":4893.86,"text":"委員當然不是這個意思董事長 底下人那麼辛苦該肯定就要肯定了來 這邊有一份我們看到我們為了要評估公廣集團所屬的這些單位是不是有旅行公共價值包括像公視 華視等等"},{"start":4894.58,"end":4919.905,"text":"在2024年的時候有委託了東方線上股份有限公司對於相關的公廣集團所屬的這些單位的觸達率 節目品質 滿意度 影響力還有公共服務營運效率等五大面向進行調查這是一份財團法人公共電視文化基金會2024年公共價值評量調查研究這份你看過嗎"},{"start":4921.328,"end":4936.78,"text":"看過我們這屆董事會要求每一年執行這個公共價值評量你看過嗎在這個報告當中本席看到公視歷年的觸達率可以說是逐年下降逐年下降就可能過去10年下來"},{"start":4937.941,"end":4962.284,"text":"那我们看到这个处答率是越来越低再来呢我们看到这个报告也有分别去调查海外的这个针对这个台湾Plus的部分那这个海外的外籍的观众在台的外籍观众还有本国的观众进行这个节目满意度的这个一个调查我们看到这个数字看起来虽然好像蛮漂亮的它是一个用分数用打分数的方式对吗"},{"start":4963.404,"end":4986.678,"text":"但是你看我們的調查樣本大概只有6個人到10個人那我們就把這份研究報告拿出來你覺得這個有參考性跟代表性嗎可不可以說明一下好 謝謝第一個要說明一下頻道的觸達就是所謂的頻道收視率的下降是全部電視的生態也不是只有台灣我們當然在這個部分我們也並沒有做到比較好的"},{"start":4987.698,"end":5011.951,"text":"結果那這個部分我們透過其他平台增加所以剛才報告我們所有的數位平台的收視的觸達都在倍增所以這點要先說明那至於這個部分台灣plus的部分是因為沒有辦法對國外進行普查或者是其他方式的調查所以我們用的是直訊調查的方法直訊調查方法所以他樣本比較少他是用focus group的概念去進行的我們還有本國觀眾啊董事長"},{"start":5013.223,"end":5040.534,"text":"因為我們當然有本國觀眾我們那個量的部分有這是質的部分你本國觀眾的部分你也是用你所謂的執行的調查去做訪問嘛但你用這個10個人6個人然後你就說我的分數這麼高80分90分這個我覺得他的代表性跟參考價值喔董事長其實可能要再考量一下喔因為未來我看這個報告是每兩年都會做一次對不對我們現在是每年做一次每年做一次預算呢"},{"start":5041.679,"end":5043.368,"text":"預算就是由公司基金會多少錢 做這份"},{"start":5047.66,"end":5074.832,"text":"對 我們可以確認一下因為我們公開招標的不管他多少錢他都是公帑如果說你找個六個人來問一問然後就把這個分數打得很漂亮然後這個要拿來做參考性跟代表性我想不只是本席其實不太能接受我想董事長跟部長我覺得我們要再看一看既然做了就是要做為將來繼續前進或者是改善的一個參考但是如果代表性這麼低六個人 十個人然後把自己分數打那麼高我覺得不太好"},{"start":5075.652,"end":5105.109,"text":"那再者還有一點這六個人十個人怎麼產生的好不好好 再來我覺得更重要的是在營運效率的調查當中本席看到一個關於我們這個公事員工對於公事營運有四大項包括運作透明度有效運用及開發資源還有人力資源的活化跟專業技能提升以及是不是有提供公平合理的勞動條件我想這邊我就請這個董事長您整合看一下我們所有的這個滿意度都是在下降的"},{"start":5105.489,"end":5125.322,"text":"但我們的不滿意度都是在上升的這個整體的數字去看起來我們必須去聽一下我們相關我們的公司員工對於很多他們的反應的事項這次上面都有我想是不是董事長其實會後您必須去看一下這個數字不是只有拿數字來看而已而是要看這個數字我們去怎麼去解決好不好"},{"start":5125.982,"end":5153.545,"text":"有 謝謝 我們也都在專案的檢討這個部分我們需要努力最後再請趙薇兩分鐘我想部長一樣問一下華氏華氏您過去認為這個華氏定位在不公不明解決的方式公管集團要買回我們華氏的民股但是你看我們已經累計虧損了35億多了我也調閱了華氏近五年的決算我在這裡再請教一次這個部長您認為導致華氏年年虧損的最大原因是什麼"},{"start":5154.707,"end":5183.621,"text":"我覺得導致華視年年虧損的最大原因就是在單書把華視捐給公廣集團的時候它沒有配套而且做了一個非常對華視不利的決定就是它必須要自負盈虧可是它又要有公共廣播集團的品質好 沒有錯所以我想布達你上列一年半的時間了你對華視其實最了解現在民股購回的進度是什麼"},{"start":5184.588,"end":5212.723,"text":"民股目前我們總共16.76%但是願意賣的只有剛好三個大的那個公司大概只佔10.06%還有99位股東沒有表達要賣那對於我們文化部來講我們沒有權利叫他賣所以這個是第一個問題就是他並沒有全部都要賣第二個要買回的話要編列一筆很大的預算必須要立法院跟行政院支持我們買回"},{"start":5214.244,"end":5229.409,"text":"就這樣目前就遇到這個問題所以部長我這樣聽起來啦其實這個問題我們從上一屆討論到現在一模一樣的答案一模一樣所以這個問題是不是再往後多少年還是一樣焦灼在這個地方其實每年你覺得有解決的辦法嗎我覺得喔有解決辦法嗎"},{"start":5233.753,"end":5252.782,"text":"我必須講一句實話二十年前我在接華視總經理的時候我就覺得這是一個非常錯誤的決定因為當時我必須跟銀行借了七八億來給每一個員工全部先提前拿到退休金所有的設計都是導致這個華視一步一步走向"},{"start":5253.382,"end":5269.654,"text":"根本賺不回錢的狀況所以能解決嗎 你看中間華氏董事會幾次的開會想要活化資產可是活化資產本身涉及到非常多利益馬上就會得到大家說你是要圖利誰圖利誰"},{"start":5271.738,"end":5290.256,"text":"屡次的提出各种方案都在原地打转那现在你问我的话我很想试试看有各种方式比如说我们想民股买回买回之后我们可不可以处理这个活化资产但这些都不是我们文化部可以解决因为它是一个董事会来决定的"},{"start":5290.916,"end":5316.597,"text":"所以您刚刚问我的问题我想最后这样子这个问题大家还是要去想想办法否则十年二十年后还是在这个地方那亏还是亏更多但是是不是要活化那应该怎么做那我们公司的董事及华氏的董事会已经进入实质的这个看守期了那我在想是不是新任的董事出来以后呢我们再来看看这个应该怎么做那也列为新任的董事的这个工作上一个重点项目这样好不好"},{"start":5317.345,"end":5332.054,"text":"非常好因為我也其實蠻期待一個新任的董事會成立之後面對我們整個公管集團每一個單位他都各自有一些要突破的東西我非常期待新任的董監事趕快成立非常好就大家一起加油是謝謝好謝謝萬美玲委員"},{"start":5336.397,"end":5354.864,"text":"部長請回座那就可以看出來說是我們真的期待新的董事會要趕快成立要加速好現在請郭育晴委員質詢謝謝主席有請部長請部長郭育晴你好"},{"start":5362.962,"end":5383.467,"text":"部長早安我想這個公廣應該是屬於全民以服務公眾應該是唯一的一個宗旨在商業媒體在追求收視跟一些所謂的廣告利潤的同時其實我們應該要更兼顧所謂的多元跟節目上的一個品質來做一個跟商業的區別或者是一些多元的一些制衡"},{"start":5384.728,"end":5403.608,"text":"但是這個以現階段其實以我最關心的動保為例我想這一整個大概這一兩個月或者是這一兩週其實動保的事件或者是虐貓虐狗的事件或者是苗栗的人人犬社的一個事件這樣子的一個虐貓虐狗的事件頻傳"},{"start":5404.609,"end":5433.124,"text":"但是在我的觀察之下這個公廣跟這些所謂的公媒的專題的報導這個數量感覺上明顯偏低了已經被這個網媒跟一些民間來領先了那我想這個公廣的一個任務應該是說我們要針對這個社會的痛點來做一些深入的一個報導是不是可以針對所謂的像居住 弱勢 災害甚至動保等等這樣子的一個議題來設定所謂的公共議題最低的一個產量"},{"start":5433.584,"end":5449.949,"text":"然後能夠及時反映當下的一些社會議題的一個機制這一點您認同嗎我個人認同但是因為對於公共電視公共媒體他們本身的一些對於新聞的比例我們通常都尊重是"},{"start":5451.176,"end":5475.141,"text":"所以尊重而已我好像不太能干預說哪一類的新聞要比例多少我是建議就是說我們在公共議題上是不是應該要就是各個公廣的一個不管是什麼樣的一個媒體我們來設計一個最低的一個產量那我覺得這個比較貼近一般民眾關心的一些重要的議題"},{"start":5476.121,"end":5493.775,"text":"好那接下來我想要問的就是這個央廣其實是國家對外的一個最重要的一個聲音那一旦他的系統被破壞或者是被操弄其實就是整個國家形象的一個風險那先前呢這個遭到駭客入侵這樣子的一個事件其實震驚各界那也是"},{"start":5494.655,"end":5523.775,"text":"找出了這個當事人那也做了一些處理但是我想這就是公共媒體是國家形象的第一線那這件事件整個曝露出來就是資安治理的一個風險那我想其實資安治理並不等於所謂的IT的維運的一個迷思那我想這個未來這個央廣是不是也願意導入第三方的一個資安的一個集合這也是應該是非常重要會被納入到就是納入這樣子的一個考量"},{"start":5524.315,"end":5551.777,"text":"那我接下來想問是不是願意每年接受所謂的外部治安的穿透的測試因為這件事件之後然後再來被害之後的通報流程跟應變的SOP現在有沒有進行全面的檢討或者是全面的更新這是我第二個問題那當然這個案子其實這個員工已經離職那但是其實也透露出所謂的像外包廠商或者是全線交接的風險"},{"start":5553.058,"end":5575.207,"text":"其實這個部分其實是風險是暴露出來的這個風險其實極高那央廣是不是已經建立所謂的公媒系統共通的一個內控的標準那將來是不是在建立所謂的離職轉調或外包廠商他們的即時權限有收回的一個制度那這個是我的第三個問題那另外就是我們願不願意能夠成"},{"start":5576.047,"end":5582.718,"text":"承諾就是能夠建立所謂的跨單位的資安最低的一個標準那麼包含哪一些"},{"start":5583.857,"end":5612.499,"text":"原始碼的保存或者是存取的一些記錄還有異常的這些警示那是不是也能夠作為所謂的這一次事件之後的一個檢討或者是示範改善的計畫甚至提供給其他的我們的公廣的集團也可以來作為參考我想把這個個案變成一個政策的一個要求其實我相信這個應該也是我們努力的一個方向目前有沒有朝我剛剛所提的這幾個問題有在進行或者是有在計畫請教"},{"start":5613.86,"end":5616.547,"text":"我想是不是請央管董事長來跟您報告好沒問題"},{"start":5618.982,"end":5644.647,"text":"謝謝委員質詢的確我們在這次資安事件裡頭我們在哪裡跌倒我們就從哪裡站起來那我們現在不只是向董事會報告並且要求加強內控之外事實上速發部也馬上提升央廣的關鍵基礎設施資安的最高等級所以我們已經升級了那在這個前提之下我們已經接受了許多次的外部的測試報告"},{"start":5645.647,"end":5661.3,"text":"我們也都有通過這些報告可以提供給我嗎 這個算是已經公開可以嗎另外我們您剛提到的許多包括原始碼如何的保存以及就是防範"},{"start":5662.961,"end":5681.362,"text":"是 存取的一些記錄或者是議場的一些警訊是的 是的那在資安的部分我們除了加強之外我們對於外部的廠商現在的處理也都有強化所以所謂的強化我剛剛講的就是他們的權限有沒有被收回的一些機制已經有了嗎歷史員工的權限"},{"start":5682.163,"end":5706.949,"text":"當然是要收回那同時我們涉案的兩位前同仁不只是開除之外我們現在也對他們提起公訴刑事跟民事的訴訟這個當然因為在司法的程序當中我們就靜待這個司法最後的一個調查結果那如果說你們已經有開始做一些改進跟報告還有一些計畫是可以公開的再麻煩提供給我們辦公室來作為參考謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":5709.53,"end":5731.048,"text":"第二個問題其實我比較想問的就是說我們央廣其實這幾年我們把這個數位轉型當成一個非常重要的一個方向不好意思繼續留著那包含這些官網的重建那APP的一些更新還有多餘影音的一個平台那我想這個維運的一個成本其實一年也比一年增加那我們可以看到從111年的297萬一路增加到115年的630萬"},{"start":5735.231,"end":5751.078,"text":"但是到今年為止我相信已經到12月了其實已經到12月我們看到這個115年的我們的KPI其實是目前還沒有確定那我想你們是不先訂KPI還是說我們是邊走邊看"},{"start":5752.338,"end":5778.621,"text":"没有 因为我们今年就是受到资安事件的影响我们的确KPEI受到很大的冲击我们不只是流量受到冲击我们连搜索SEO也都受到冲击所以这个部分有些数字我们正在做最新的调查那另外呢也跟您报告在这部分资安的费用会增加相当的多那有些部分包括我们资安投资所以预算正在"},{"start":5779.221,"end":5806.958,"text":"也都必須要重估對 這個部分是很大的金額所以我們也希望委員能夠支持我們增加這方面的預算因為我想提到的就是包含我們的這個就是說我們投入的一個規模來相比啦這個成效到底有沒有跟我們的這個投入的一些規模是成正比的往上那包含其實我接下來問到的就是APP的增加應該是說下載的數量這個三年來是連續在下滑不是只有這個今年的這個資安的部分因為它其實已經到"},{"start":5808.559,"end":5824.828,"text":"到了一個就是我們不把APP作為最主下載的數字當然因為我們還有其他的一些我們強調的是其他的數字以及我們這幾年強化的是短影音還有在網路上的YouTube的使用"},{"start":5825.188,"end":5842.348,"text":"那因为我们的受众我们的海外观众跟在台湾的移工他们喜欢的是直播所以呢在这个部分我们强化的是这个部分但是在APP您所关心的部分我们其实停留而且使用的人数还"},{"start":5843.208,"end":5861.882,"text":"但是不是只有APP我剛剛只講到一半那另外包含所謂的我們的媒體的用戶還有我們的廣播的這個收聽的受眾還有一些多項的指標其實它這個數字不是停滯它是有一點點往下滑那剛剛就我所提到的也許因為你們因為資安的事件所以現在我們的"},{"start":5864.204,"end":5885.886,"text":"115年的我們的KPI其實目前都還沒有定定喔最快什麼時候可以定下一些標準因為我們沒有KPI其實我們就沒有這樣子的一個指標可以去對照那我想這個是因為單一的個案的一個事件的影響影響到你們之後的KPI的設置那請問你們KPI最快什麼時候可以出來我們希望能夠在今年重新盤整年底"},{"start":5886.306,"end":5915.345,"text":"之前重新判证之后我们尽快的提出但是详细的日期我是不是能够在跟同仁讨论之后主管都已经确认在跟您报告好 我想其实身为我们公共的媒体尤其是我们这样子的一个等同就是国家的一个门面所以其实不管是资安的一些控管然后另外就是我们的整个所有的这个央广的一个绩效能够同步的来提升其实非常的重要我们一定会浴火重生谢谢委员"},{"start":5915.805,"end":5939.944,"text":"那因為時間的關係我還有本來要問一下就是我們的這個電影修復的一個問題部長我想再給我兩分鐘的時間讓我們來提一下這個電影修復的一個問題我想這個國影中心其實目前典藏超過一萬九千部的一個影片但是到2024年年底我們僅完成了7429部的一個膠捲的一個數位化那修復了98部的一個經典的影片"},{"start":5940.504,"end":5963.36,"text":"剩下的仍然停留在這個新北市的樹林工業區的17座的片庫當中但是這些片庫因為它的環境老舊然後空間受限再來其實修復的人力的部分其實這個將來也是我們要聚焦的一個重點那我想目前其實在修復的體系當中面臨最大的兩塊第一個就是我們的修復的人才的不足"},{"start":5963.74,"end":5983.372,"text":"那再來就是我們的修復的一個成果是不是能夠真正能夠轉換到所謂的公共的教育跟文化上的應用那這個部分呢其實我之後再提供我的書面的質詢因為今天時間的關係我看主席一直站起來對不對好辛苦了好那今天也謝謝部長那謝謝主席好謝謝委員謝謝郭玉琴委員協助行政官員請回座現在請葛如君"},{"start":5994.802,"end":6009.929,"text":"呃不過先葛如君先暫停一下因為目前我們在場委員剛好超過三位以上我們先做一下議事錄確認對於上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有好那議事錄就確定好那現在請葛如君委員質詢"},{"start":6022.895,"end":6031.38,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請文化部理院部長以及公廣集團的各位代表好 有請部長跟公廣集團代表"},{"start":6034.535,"end":6063.067,"text":"各位你好部長早最近有幸看了幾篇關於部長的採訪報導得知您的父親和母親其實是從對岸來到台灣共主家庭也就是所謂俗稱的外省第二代從報導當中可以得知部長其實不吝與和讀者分享家庭生活的點點滴滴部長先前的創作也有許多源自於日常生活的累積部長可不可以簡單說明一下您的父親是從大陸的哪裡來到台灣的呢"},{"start":6064.144,"end":6079.053,"text":"我爸爸是在民國34年從福建來到台灣所以我們可以說部長的祖籍是福建我父母親算是中國人所以就是我想部長我們都可以理解到其實每一個人的文化素養"},{"start":6080.154,"end":6101.349,"text":"除了後天的累積其實更直接的來到了原生家庭經驗的影響我們台灣的文化之所以豐富正是因為我們擁有這塊土地原生的以及來自四面八方的文化匯集本席身為宅宅的一份子經常在網路上海巡也作為網路海巡署的一份子"},{"start":6101.949,"end":6109.031,"text":"因此也就各位網友所關心的議題想要來救教部長近期第59屆的金鐘獎剛剛舉行過頒獎典禮有部分的網友在網路上討論有些藝人因為談論到主集或者他們的相關的這種事項被貼上了金鐘的標籤網友認為公廣集團"},{"start":6125.495,"end":6144.862,"text":"不應該再與這些藝人進行合作包含戲劇的邀約 上節目甚至是活動代言等等文化部對於所謂親中藝人的定義有沒有一套明確的標準我們政府有沒有一條隱形的紅線這條紅線到底怎麼畫的又畫在哪裡那我想今天與會的"},{"start":6145.862,"end":6169.547,"text":"有隸屬於公廣集團的公共電視 華視 客家電視台還有台灣plus想請問一下實務上藝人的政治立場特別是對於兩岸政治的態度是不是會影響到櫃台和他們合作的意願或者會不會擔心未來與這些藝人合作的作品會受到網友抵制可不可以請客台代表簡要回答會不會"},{"start":6176.089,"end":6202.472,"text":"其實以公司來講我們沒有特殊的考量所以我們公司來講沒有特殊的考量就是不會嘛好來那個其他代表很快的快速發表這沒什麼吧這是我們言論自由的自由的國土啊會不會我們中央社不會有什麼歧視的問題對嘛沒有問題嘛好來那個其他的代表有沒有"},{"start":6203.735,"end":6230.536,"text":"包委員客家電視台沒有沒有嘛來包委員complus跟公廣一樣沒有好謝謝部長所以今天我們可以確定藝人和公廣集團合作無需經過政治審查也不必要求必然要做政治正確對嗎其實輕鬆本身是一個假議題其實我們政府有兩岸人民條例我們本身對藝人不會有任何"},{"start":6231.656,"end":6246.568,"text":"我們甚至於打開雙手歡迎藝人在台灣發展我們所有對藝人的態度都根據兩岸人民條例他有沒有觸犯到兩岸人民條例的那個限制所以還是有一條線 哪一條線部長講清楚"},{"start":6248.329,"end":6262.638,"text":"譬如說你在我們上次不是講過嗎陸委會已經對外講有一個紅線就是如果你在大陸中國大陸發展我們歡迎你去但是你不能夠在那邊發表一些跟中國背後有目的的發表一些"},{"start":6264.419,"end":6284.294,"text":"這個東西已經直接傷害到台灣的主權部長 read my face我現在的臉非常的驚訝剛剛公廣集團的代表都來跟我們說不會受到影響結果您現在在這裡幫忙陸委會在澄清他們的紅線你是文化部代表還是陸委會代表"},{"start":6285.074,"end":6304.404,"text":"所以有紅線啦我本來下一句要說太好了 部長可不可以簡短的向網友呼籲我們不會要求藝人有什麼政治正確也不會有政治審查剛剛公廣的代表跟我部長的立場是一致的結果你竟然在這裡重申陸委會的立場說有一條紅線啦部長我再給你一個機會喔"},{"start":6307.697,"end":6328.831,"text":"其實我覺得台灣非常民主自由可是在目前這個情況下台灣的民主自由不能被利用譬如說一再的背後如果有一個集團要我們台灣去的藝人發表對台灣不利的言論而且那個不利的言論已經到了傷害大家情感譬如說武統台灣可不可以"},{"start":6329.971,"end":6358.345,"text":"請問部長您剛剛這樣的說法完全就隱含一個陰謀論現在有哪一個藝人有明確被證明了背後有什麼集團的誰 說出來目前我們當然經過一個調查我們經過一個調查結果沒有明確的所以我們沒有我們沒有對任何藝人提出懲處那是怎麼樣那不確定的狀態還是怎麼樣文化部要來調查所以你們有去調查"},{"start":6359.185,"end":6380.908,"text":"哇 文化部現在又變成不只是陸委會代表還是警總代表啦還要來調查他背後有沒有什麼集團那我現在在這裡背後 我有沒有什麼集團我們不是一個言論自由的社會現在文化部要來看你講的話背後有沒有什麼集團部長"},{"start":6382.236,"end":6396.723,"text":"我們今天還有很多重要的議題要討論那我希望是不是能夠再次的回到您剛剛講的這四個字言論自由不要用這種隱形的紅線這種背後集團的推估"},{"start":6397.583,"end":6423.316,"text":"造成社會隱形的壓力網友很擔心好不好所以這一點希望部長可以回去您可以觀看一下您今天的回應也許有一些我們還可以交流的地方我再跟部長請教這樣好嗎好不好這個部分希望我們還是要保持著整個社會不要有這種無形的壓力不要有這種無形的懷疑我想部長你從那樣的年代走過來"},{"start":6425.198,"end":6439.117,"text":"懷疑你講的話背後有集團這個說法我想我們沒有人會認同好不好這個接下來我們還有很重要的意見可以嗎我們未來持續交流啦可以嗎 部長可以 我願意跟你交流啊謝謝"},{"start":6440.559,"end":6464.61,"text":"我想接下來本期長期以來所關心的AI科技議題從9月1號開始其實有越來越多的發展台灣公共媒體宣布要聯手開發可信資訊的AI chatbot這個計畫是以建立信賴AI的目標預算是新台幣1200萬元與我們非常景仰非常棒的中研院團隊合作預計在2026年底完成"},{"start":6465.33,"end":6485.745,"text":"本席非常樂見公共媒體開始認知到AI的重要性願意踏出這樣的一個計畫第一步那相信行政院喊出的步步有AI不是步步蹭AI但是也不要忘記其實我們的國科會已經主導了一段時間的AI對話引擎Tradbar的引擎叫做台德"},{"start":6487.14,"end":6502.569,"text":"從民國112年起就開始了投入了3.1億以上的經費請問部長在公共媒體展開AI缺乏計畫之前有沒有跟國科會台德研發團隊洽談過公共媒體的需求是不是請聊一下"},{"start":6504.114,"end":6525.788,"text":"有沒有跟國科會台德團隊研發談過事實上台德團隊在進行研發的時候他們需要的資料庫我們公廣集團就已經提供我們對他們之間對我現在講的是缺霸計畫謝謝有沒有跟他們我們缺霸計畫有跟速發部跟國科會那邊都有進行討論而且我們兩個方面是不一樣的"},{"start":6525.828,"end":6552.25,"text":"沒關係我們做的是一個新聞的部分的AI聊天機器人並不是像台德它是一個通用型的所以這兩個東西目的也不太一樣對話機器人收集了足夠的資料就變成有目的型的機器人沒有關係這一點我們想要講的就是我們得到的訊息是你們並沒有跟國科會針對這個一千兩百萬的計畫來討論但是沒有關係但我們想要講的是我們小小多山"},{"start":6553.09,"end":6572.509,"text":"資源發展要集中而最重要的就是資料資料就是黃金如果我們能夠把這些黃金呢能夠大家利用的話其實可以讓我們的台灣的主權我們的文化可以在AI的時代更加的發揚光大那我想請教一下這一次"},{"start":6575.17,"end":6589.779,"text":"這個開發參與的單位有包含公廣集團的公視客家台台語台華視中央社中央廣播電台圓明台的各位代表以上所唸到的單位有將資料提供給台德訓練使用的可不可以舉個手"},{"start":6593.368,"end":6621.278,"text":"資料是有償提供的也就是有向台德收費的請將手放下然後無償提供的舉起手這一點我們也非常感謝事實上早期和公共電視有接觸確實公共電視有提供少量的資料無償使用但是其他的媒體我想部長您也都看到了都沒有提供你們有滿地的黃金這個資料資源其實文化部同樣隸屬於跟國會隸屬於行政院"},{"start":6621.818,"end":6649.519,"text":"但是其實資料沒有跨部會的流通是非常可惜的之前這個113年度這個台德的計畫資料收集的預算只有700萬結果光是和中央社一家購買就花了648萬而且還有時間的期限這一點我們是希望可以通盤的調整不是說就沒有錢不是這個意思而是說這一次1200萬的計畫"},{"start":6651.42,"end":6676.053,"text":"可以做 但是能不能在做的同時能夠同時去討論去開放提供做這個AI chatbot的資料能夠做一個更有可讀性的資料開放的平台裡面有文稿 有字幕這個能不能開放這些資料也讓外部來做一些運用跟研發這個部分能不能部長跟這個工廠集團研議一下"},{"start":6680.021,"end":6707.652,"text":"可以 部長有點頭了謝謝這一點我還要再重申一次開放不代表就沒有錢因為我也曾經跟胡婉玲胡社長有談過資料真的有價值資料有價值但是我要替台德和其他的AI請命根據歐盟的開放資料暨公部門資訊再利用指令第6條有提到政府資料的收費英才編記成本原則"},{"start":6708.832,"end":6732.178,"text":"也就是說除了提供複製散布的邊際成本以外不要額外去收取費用就是說你的基本成本否則政府會形成資料壟斷跟抑制市場創新所以這一點我要拜託部長部長您可不可以請回到原始的位置謝謝因為這一點需要您的承諾文化部能不能幫忙我們研議去採取我們剛剛所提到的"},{"start":6733.019,"end":6751.54,"text":"編輯成本原則最小化原則重新檢討我們的公共媒體提供資料的收費標準以利我國的AI科技持續發展創新全球的AI都能夠來了解台灣的文化這一點部長能不能主導研議一下三個月內"},{"start":6752.341,"end":6778.684,"text":"提出演繹的報告好不好這一點我想後面的同仁代表都非常開心啦那這一點我覺得希望您來協助努力最後這個主席不好意思我們真的太重要了因為剛剛這個部長的反應讓我們花了一些時間我們未來會有更多交流我快速部長請看這張投影片左到右教父射雕英雄傳何日君再來您作為一位文化人能不能猜到這三件作品的共通點是什麼"},{"start":6780.08,"end":6803.039,"text":"都是非常暢銷非常暢銷沒錯但是他們都是當時被政府說查禁的作品所以事實上我們發現現在要鎖小紅書結果小紅書的下載量馬上衝到第一部長你能不能以文化人的立場向政府去建議封堵不是防止文化傳播的方法"},{"start":6803.579,"end":6818.009,"text":"政府應該要重新評估一下封鎖小紅書的政策不然他下載持續在衝高啊部長您的觀點是什麼可不可以鼓勵一下小紅書會被停的原因跟這個思想沒有關係吧是跟他"},{"start":6818.829,"end":6836.758,"text":"他不回答我們跟他提的問題譬如說打詐的問題吧跟思想沒有關係沒關係 這個訊息我提供給你台灣一天的被詐騙金額是四億小紅書平台兩年是兩億這個我們未來有機會再交流但是這一點我最後一個部分文化政策是部長的專業"},{"start":6840.3,"end":6868.465,"text":"其實這個E-mail去禁止這種兩岸資料的這種資訊的傳遞跟擔憂其實是沒有意義的那您有沒有什麼反向文化滲透的作戰計畫我現在拿手上這本書是李敖先生《雖千萬人》李敖王以這是他當年在微博上面大殺四方用140個字幾千篇的文章獲得千萬粉絲這就是一個最好的逆滲透的做法"},{"start":6868.945,"end":6896.552,"text":"我想問一下部長有沒有什麼我們文化逆滲透的作戰計畫我想問一下委員你的意思是不是說用中華民國統一統一中國還是三民主義統一中國我們的文化的美麗的部分不要講了講了都到統獨去了我們那麼多創作者有什麼統不統獨不獨這三部哪一個是統獨了嗎沒有嘛不是不是我一直覺得我們講在這個這個輕鬆的題目"},{"start":6897.892,"end":6915.214,"text":"不是 我們一定要講這些議題我們才能讓對岸感動嗎我們匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬也不是統獨議題對岸也很感動啊為什麼一講到文化逆滲透就是統就是獨呢部長"},{"start":6918.379,"end":6935.581,"text":"不是嗎不是嗎好你聽我講我一直覺得台灣的文化比中國的文化高對嘛 很美麗嘛你同不同意要有作戰計畫啊我當然同意我們當然是我當然同意 為什麼當然是把台灣的文化走進全世界泳之森多美麗"},{"start":6936.877,"end":6961.458,"text":"永之生多美麗是不是 部長所以 部長我對不起 朴主席我這個書在中國大陸被盜版了這本書在小紅書上面有很多您的粉絲他還寫分析評論這是您的作品感動到海的另外一端我們其實可以文化的逆向反向的滲透"},{"start":6963.439,"end":6986.564,"text":"這種風境講到這個兩岸的文化交流就是統就是獨我想沒有這樣的意思啦好不好所以部長我們能不能台灣的文化輸出作為文化輸出大國有沒有百分百的信心當然有啊好那謝謝部長這一點我對主席很抱歉啦因為今天議題太重要了因為我要感受到部長的信心不要只感受到部長內心"},{"start":6988.584,"end":6999.43,"text":"傳達其他部會的紅線這樣就太可惜了無論是實體或虛擬世界我們一起為台灣成為文化輸出的大國一起努力 這樣可以嗎可以 謝謝謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝葛如君委員的質詢部長請 相關部會請回"},{"start":7007.154,"end":7020.663,"text":"大家可以看出來我們看到文化部長其實也蠻有gas他終於回到了文化部長應該有的一個底蘊堅守住我們台灣的文化優越性的特質現在請陳秀寶委員質詢謝謝張偉 請李部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":7040.701,"end":7047.989,"text":"陳委員你好部長早安我想您心目中的紅線就是台灣的主權不能被侵犯是吧"},{"start":7048.695,"end":7072.953,"text":"其實剛剛在我的話語中有點被誤會因為我說台灣是一個民主自由的國家我沒有誤會您啊不是我說剛才在講到這個紅線所以我說您心中的紅線就是台灣的主權不容侵犯那小紅書呢他就是因為他不願意在台灣設法律代表人其他的平台在台灣都有連國際版的TikTok都有提出申請正在審核中只有小紅書他不願意配合"},{"start":7073.553,"end":7102.512,"text":"我們任何打詐有詐騙的這樣的情勢發生我們跟他反映他完全都不理我們不理會所以這是為了保護我們國人好來部長近日在國際間沸沸揚揚的消息就是國際創流平台Netflix他宣布以827億美元要來收購華納兄弟與其將華納兄弟旗下的著名IP影視納入他的創流平台例如像哈利波特系列冰與火之歌之類的這些很有名的這些"},{"start":7103.653,"end":7121.679,"text":"著名的IP影視那昨天又傳出呢潘大門影業也要發動敵意收購他要以1084億美金現金收購華納兄弟那其實不論是哪一家公司去收購華納兄弟對台灣的影視產業一定都有造成衝擊"},{"start":7122.799,"end":7142.237,"text":"在国际的影视产业都逐渐合并的情况之下他们可以投入影视因产制的量能这些资源越来越多越来越集中我想请教部长目前针对台湾的影视作品产制的方向或计划我们会不会有调整我们会不会用怎样的方式来结合更多的资源让我们的产品更具竞争力"},{"start":7143.693,"end":7163.965,"text":"我想说我们要有三个方向一个就是我们的制作一定要走向国际一起合作但这个我们已经在往下走文策院最近一口气成立了好几个基金都是跟国外不同的国家成立这个基金就是我们本身的市场一定要走出去第二我们一定要依赖我们自己的平台能够壮大"},{"start":7164.565,"end":7180.184,"text":"那这个也是文策院已经开始进行跟三大平台远传 大个大还有中华电信成立这个基金我们只有壮大自己的平台才不会过度依赖像国外的这些Netflix这个部分第三"},{"start":7181.377,"end":7200.733,"text":"他們會併購這些電影最大的電影公司你就知道最終還是內容是最重要的就是你有能力產製很好的內容這才是一個王道就是你的電影劇集一定要有能力跟其他國家競爭它才是一個最後的決勝的地方"},{"start":7202.734,"end":7222.555,"text":"當然我們有好的內容這才是最吸引人的而且我們要跟國際合作那麼如何撞到我們自己的平台其實在這個國際創流平台它集結越多著名的IP的這個情況之下我們應該要如何去因應讓我們的平台讓我們的作品可以脫穎而出"},{"start":7223.195,"end":7236.86,"text":"這也是很重要的一點而且新聞中有提到說Netflix它收購的主因有部分是為了降低授權費的支出喔那所以未來串流平台在授權費上會不會有銷價競爭的情況"},{"start":7238.641,"end":7266.189,"text":"那報導也指出說最快2026的第三季就會生效所以文化部這邊我們要持續關注影視的國際影視的動態呢我們後續我們的這個鼓勵優秀影視產業的這些相關的政策我們如何調整如何推動這也是很重要未來我剛剛講了如何在國際這些跟大家這個資源集中的這種競爭對手我們要如何脫穎而出部長你有想法嗎"},{"start":7267.092,"end":7285.504,"text":"有 其实我们在刚刚提到跟国际合作合制的这个方面还有我们最近投资了非常多的那种在类型上面我们会选择对台湾本身的类型上比较占优势的影片最近各位大概了解我们台湾的电影电影本身的票房"},{"start":7286.865,"end":7300.676,"text":"今年已經超過去年大概百分之三十左右就是因為我們在類型上已經找到一個我們台灣本身比較適合的類型比較能夠吸引國際來看的一個類型就是朝著我們的強項去發展是好 謝謝部長接下來我想要詢問有關於演唱會產業鏈的問題近年來高雄舉辦非常多的演唱會"},{"start":7312.146,"end":7325.376,"text":"讓我們看到我們台灣是有許多城市是有能力吸引國際明星來台灣辦這種大規模的大型演唱會讓演唱會不只是演唱會它是可以結合明星IP文化觀光經濟的這個產業鏈不單純只是來看產"},{"start":7330.04,"end":7341.554,"text":"配合我們國家跟城市的這個文化行銷部長您覺得我們有沒有這樣的能量來壯大台灣演唱會的經濟打造台灣成為亞洲的演唱會島"},{"start":7344.437,"end":7361.783,"text":"因為演唱會它是一個三業機制我們會努力的從我們能夠掌握的部分比如說我們會提升我們的音樂節這種但是演唱會本身它是一個三業機制那我們會努力朝這個方向我舉個例說像運動部它就看到了運動產業的重要性"},{"start":7363.223,"end":7390.24,"text":"他集結台灣50大的運動產業品牌希望可以打造台灣成為運動產業島來辦理具有台灣特色及文化的運動賽事那所以同理來說高雄的演唱會這個經濟的蓬勃告訴我們說我們台灣是有潛力可以成為亞洲演唱會的聚集地所以本席希望說文化部你們可以構思相關產業的發展跟媒合我們應該要支持我們國內外的音樂人"},{"start":7391.421,"end":7417.822,"text":"文化來推升內需擴大相關這個音樂節的規模從剛剛那個部長您有提到了我們可以從在地的音樂日音樂節開始我們來擴大台灣演唱會的這個產業的量能我也希望說文化部你們有看到這個可行性發展性要來串聯演唱會產業鏈打造我們台灣成為這個演唱會島這個部長您覺得有沒有信心可以去這樣子規劃"},{"start":7419.443,"end":7442.568,"text":"有 因為我們在對音樂的政策方面其實我們已經開始執行新南夏政策就是我們會跟東南亞的國家交流那今年選擇泰國希望泰國也是我們未來的市場之一所以我們會一步一步的走向我們彼此之間在市場上可以互通的一些東南亞國家互相喜歡對方的音樂"},{"start":7443.328,"end":7458.483,"text":"好 謝謝部長我希望說這個真的是其實這個音樂音樂它是一個可以帶動的可以感染的可以傳染的那我們讓這樣子的氛圍出去我覺得台灣真的是非常有這樣的量能可以來做這樣的發展"},{"start":7459.784,"end":7479.521,"text":"那好 說到這個演唱會呢我們就來討論一下觀眾的這個權益的問題演唱會這樣蓬勃辦理的狀況之下消極會今年接獲很多演唱會座位釋憲不良的申訴案件而且情況不是個案喔所以交到消極會這邊有呼籲文化部應該檢討藝文表演票券定型化契約"},{"start":7480.382,"end":7495.281,"text":"除了要強制揭露遮蔽區外也應該增訂補償條款我想知道我們目前文化部的態度是什麼我這邊要強調演唱會視線不良這個制度是長期缺乏明確的指引跟補救機制所致雖然說"},{"start":7496.362,"end":7518.181,"text":"主辦單位可能在事前有廣告部分區域視線遮蔽但是是很小的字但是遮蔽的這個狀況往往超出預期例如舞台設計啊道具升降啊燈光掉降拍攝這個攝影機的軌道還有音響設備都可能讓觀眾在整場演出之中無法看清楚表演又觀眾投訴的話只一整場只看到半顆頭"},{"start":7518.902,"end":7528.115,"text":"只聽到聲音所以這樣子沒有顧到我們消費者的權益的這個這個整個的制度下我覺得我們應該也要朝著這個方向去研議"},{"start":7530.472,"end":7552.717,"text":"我們演唱會它可能本來只有座位圖可是座位圖它每一場的現場的規劃不一樣你光靠座位圖你想像不出來可能被遮蔽的範圍在哪裡所以這個部分我希望說應該要有個遮蔽就是要設定這個揭露的比例我希望文化部可以研議這個部分像你搭飛機你在網路上選機位它也會告訴你這是無窗戶價位可能會便宜一點所以這個部分文化部我們可以來為我們的觀眾做怎樣的協助呢"},{"start":7560.467,"end":7586.573,"text":"其實我們本來就發現了所以我們會一直在持續要求這個平台它在售票的時候要更多的提醒不能只有一個座位那這個部分我們已經在做了我們提醒平台做更多的提醒但是有沒有一個比較明確的指引或是一個怎樣的規範一個機制讓消費者也可以申訴或者一個補救機制"},{"start":7591.96,"end":7611.252,"text":"委員好 先跟委員說明一下 確實目前大概大部分的主辦單位其實都已經有在網路上在做售票的時候提醒包括舞台設計 可能這幣 甚至有些會提供一些票價上的優惠差異那至於這個部分 之前消息會提出來這樣子的訴求的時候 我們也會持續的再收集一下意見"},{"start":7612.012,"end":7637.192,"text":"因為其實基本上他的所謂的指引這件事情就是作為遮蔽的方式其實對每一個人他其實會有一些不同的看法那這一項其實確實需要再多收集一些意見來了解看看業界實務的做法當然他每一場演唱會他本身的佈置他本身他在演唱會之前他是不能太做他的公佈但是你也必須要提醒有必要做"},{"start":7638.613,"end":7655.19,"text":"至少在告知上要讓消費者知道他這個座位買了之後他可能被遮蔽的比例或是可能被遮蔽的部分我覺得這是有義務要這樣子告知的因為這個是很嚴重的影響到消費者的權益他好不容易花那麼多錢搶到一張票"},{"start":7655.891,"end":7670.929,"text":"結果發現他是看不到了他只能用聽的所以對他來講是一個非常委屈的事情我也希望說文化部要重視喔這個部分我會再追蹤喔那主席再給我一點時間我要呼應一下剛才疫情委員所講的關於影視中心影片修復這個問題喔"},{"start":7672.19,"end":7700.108,"text":"那有新聞指出說國家影視中心第二期的工程就是要興建作為典藏跟推廣影視的這個博物館目前是進度是停滯不前是因為我們文化部跟新北市政府對影視中心二期博物館的興建規劃有不同的意見那我在十月份的時候我有到影視中心考察我看到我們的同仁真的是非常努力的在做這些早期影視的修復那我們也很多早期的這些影視作品就是有"},{"start":7700.988,"end":7724.25,"text":"盡量的都去收回來典藏這個修復的工作非常辛苦他一格一格的在做膠捲的修復有時候一個月做不到十分鐘的進度這麼辛苦我們做出來的這些作品我們要有一個妥善的空間來收藏它的話影視中心第二期的這個工程就非常的重要母畫部現在跟新北市溝通的狀況如何"},{"start":7727.515,"end":7756.596,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們也都知道點藏這個影片的重要性但是因為我們跟新北市溝通發生一個問題就是說他們希望我們的停車位的數量遠遠大於我們能夠接受的情況而且當地的居民也不太希望它只是一個點藏庫它會要求更多的空間展示什麼目前我們就卡在這個地方因為新北市非常堅持車位要多少"},{"start":7757.136,"end":7771.958,"text":"然後那個幾乎佔掉我們三分之二的空間新北遜要求要830個公共停車位所以這樣的空間其實佔據了大部分博物館整體就住不住的空間對 就是我們真的能夠典藏的空間變得非常小"},{"start":7772.318,"end":7801.571,"text":"而且因為下挖地下室到4樓的話還要搭建空橋會增加一倍的經費嘛因為本來合的金額好像是45億後來經費來到將近90億那這個部分齁我希望說文化部你們要妥善跟新北市政府溝通啦等一下下述這個期程那我希望說你們溝通之後你們有進度跟相關的期程這個計畫呢一份資料給我辦公室好沒問題好謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳舊寶委員那部長行政官員請回座"},{"start":7804.9,"end":7823.725,"text":"等一下在范瑜委員質詢之後我們就進行休息五分鐘那也要跟大家講就是因為今天時間大家質詢很踴躍不過如果是跟本主題不相關的可能就是我會做一下節制這部分了"},{"start":7824.085,"end":7849.783,"text":"就是說希望還是依照我們公共電視等等的公廣集團跟央視央廣來做一個主題報告那其他的部分有關於其他議題的話就是再做書面質詢好嗎或是再請文化部的相關單位到各個委員辦公室去做說明好 那現在請羅廷維委員質詢"},{"start":7855.953,"end":7867.101,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉有請公視董事長胡董事長 謝謝好 有請胡董事長部長等一下"},{"start":7868.004,"end":7894.873,"text":"委員好好那個副董事長想跟你先請問一下9月1日呢公廣集團跟中央社央廣原市共同宣布啟動公共媒體的AI Travel的這個合作計畫目標2026年要完成未來要做出大眾版跟專業版的AI聊天的一個機器人這是第一個我們第一次把這個公共媒體累積多年的新聞資料"},{"start":7896.013,"end":7920.105,"text":"政府資料NGO的資料共同套在這個AI的系統裡面規模很大所以大家也都很關注喔首先先自己請教一下啦你自己本身有在用AI機器人嗎有我自己使用不過都不付費就是了都不付費喔沒關係啦這個你比較常使用哪一個品牌呢包括那個Google的Jermyn"},{"start":7921.84,"end":7937.21,"text":"還有一些其他包括像MeJourney還有Visual Diffusion多方嘗試就叫這幾個問題希望董事長能夠具體的一個說明第一個問題我想現在大家並不知道"},{"start":7938.01,"end":7954.02,"text":"你們的AI聊天機器人能夠做什麼從媒體上我大概的去歸納出幾個問題所以我要先看看你要怎麼回答但是媒體上看到的你的AI機器人是以一打擊假訊息提供可信的資料"},{"start":7955.081,"end":7979.153,"text":"這一方面的是所謂去描述但實際卻沒有用途沒有去講清楚到底他會是一個查新聞的工具查政府政策的一個入口還是公共資料一個平台還是他會把公共媒體的新聞重新摘要重新編寫現在都沒有具體說明也不太清楚你們的這個AI機器人的定位可不可以說明一下"},{"start":7980.131,"end":8007.003,"text":"用最簡單的話來講它就是一個新聞相關的聊天機器人也就是你對新聞事件感到興趣你想了解哪些事情它如何發生那它現在的變化是怎麼樣等等這一類的一個最可信方面我們認為以事實為基礎的一個聊天機器人所以它有可能會把公共媒體的一個新聞重新摘要編寫然後把它查詢出來以後提供給使用者是嗎"},{"start":8007.623,"end":8027.87,"text":"是的 我們現在參考很多國家優質媒體做聊天機器人他們的確會用包括把連結的資訊都會提供給一般使用者現在這樣子有一些方向那第二個問題公共媒體的資料合在一起以後AI要怎麼回答同一則新聞不同媒體的寫法其實本來就不同"},{"start":8028.73,"end":8039.809,"text":"那AI最後的回答是多家媒體的合併摘要還是AI自己在把所有的全部在彙整重新寫一個版本這個部分你可不可以說明一下"},{"start":8041.06,"end":8060.361,"text":"基本上AI当然不会是完全像摘要式它会有做一个综合不过它会回溯到每一个原始的新闻来源也就是使用者他可以去查他原本的资料来源在哪里做相互的比较跟印证所以像是合并摘要然后引述所使用的资料来源"},{"start":8062.143,"end":8083.218,"text":"對 應該在概念上是這樣的一個方向因為我是希望他不要去直接影響到公共媒體的公信力跟資訊的一個標準所以要做這樣子的一個提問第三個問題就是大家最想知道的你現在你自己的這一個Chapboard它現在跟ChapGPT還有你剛剛說的Google他們有什麼不一樣"},{"start":8084.259,"end":8111.659,"text":"他现在的聊天机器人是在所谓的我们的资料库查找关键字找新闻那他现在这些工具都做得到啊那我们而且我们自己也有搜寻引擎啊他变成日后我们在对于这个TrapGPT啊或者是像Google啊他变成是一个竞争对手之一那我们要怎么样让使用者去选择使用你的AI工具可不可以请你说明一下他的强项"},{"start":8112.219,"end":8137.501,"text":"还有他能够做到什么样的一个实际的具体的作为毫无疑问那个您刚才提到的几个所谓聊天机器人是全球通用而这些通用过程当然是以其他国家全球各方面资讯作为主要的来源可是我们这个当然是以台湾作为主要的一个资讯来源第二个就是说刚才那些聊天机器人现在很多的研究都发现"},{"start":8138.041,"end":8164.008,"text":"事實上裡面不正確的資訊非常多因為他在網路上各種資料他都搜尋而我們就是以大型語言模型作為基礎所做的一個封閉型的一個資訊回答系統這樣聽起來這樣聽起來就是你是以我們自己的資料庫所準備的資料為主那我想這是一個整合式的公共資料平台那未來他回答的內容也勢必會作為公共媒體一部分的資訊呈現對吧"},{"start":8165.902,"end":8187.712,"text":"那所以因此就是否應該要納入公共媒體的既有新聞倫理跟資訊標準例如喔 回答的內容應該要直接的附上資料來源吧對 剛才已經說明了 是那AI生成的文字是否需要標示基本上來講 譬如這個當然都有一些國際的通則"},{"start":8188.703,"end":8216.901,"text":"那在使用方面我們會盡量讓我們的專家讓他回溯到最正確的部分那這個部分當然是我想國際的通則我們當然要去參考但是這些是前期應該建立的一個基本原則而不是純粹的一個技術問題因為原則如果不先定清楚後續實作上很容易出現不一致的一個狀況我想哪些是AI生成的文字要讓使用者能夠清楚的了解這是他"},{"start":8217.361,"end":8238.015,"text":"另外所生成出来的有所标示哪些是资料来源我想这个部分应该要有所界定我们在相关的资料说明的时候我们一定会做尽量详尽的说明这是我们的原则因为这个是计划的初步来做一个起步的阶段所以许多的细部技术"},{"start":8238.675,"end":8265.569,"text":"我覺得都還在研議中所以我覺得這個部分上定位跟原則的問題應該要先行來討論才可以後續有了這些才能夠將他的定位整個計劃的核心底定以後他預計解決的問題以及公共媒體的專業價值還有原則的問題全部釐清才能夠把後續制定的方向能夠更清楚明確所以今天稍微要提醒一下"},{"start":8266.169,"end":8295.609,"text":"那公共媒體呢還有一個共同發展的AI不只是導入一項新技術而是建立一個新的公共服務的一個模式涉及了跨機構的一個治理架構也因此在計畫的前期向用途的界定資料使用的範圍倫理的標準以及現有的工具差異化等這個基礎的問題我都希望能夠有清楚的一個原則希望這個部分能夠有所作為後續的依據這個部分可以認同嗎"},{"start":8296.95,"end":8317.47,"text":"謝謝委員提醒這方面的確就是我們重視的原則事實上像中央社跟共廣集團也是全台灣第一個發布AI使用準則的媒體所以我們在這方面一定會朝委員所提示的方向來進行這部分我也要提醒就是我們訂定完以後文化部"},{"start":8318.251,"end":8338.256,"text":"就現在文化部的角色還是希望他能夠協助公廣集團在適當的時機提出更明確的一個說明讓社會能夠了解這一項公共的AI計畫的方向原則期待確保這個計畫能夠在正軌上能夠並且在騎乘上推出來"},{"start":8339.296,"end":8358.867,"text":"因為你現在只有推出一個概念對不對那真正能夠去執行的時候我們還是很擔心它的實效啦因為畢竟每一年AI機器人現在我們看到Google推出的AI跟現在已經把ChapGPT原本是霸主的地位拉下來了"},{"start":8359.747,"end":8389.166,"text":"那現在ChapGPT過幾個月可能又要推出自己的機器人可能又要再跟Google有一些較勁那我們的定位何時能夠推出三個月可能就被淘汰了這個部分還要再多加強那另外要跟董事長稍微提到就是說公共媒體的一個新媒體策略真正能夠觸及到年輕人嗎我們看到這個公視央社央廣都在推動新媒體的一個策略包含YouTube"},{"start":8391.008,"end":8416.247,"text":"還有Podcast還有OTTAI編輯與多平台的一個內容但這些策略是否真的觸到了台灣的年輕族群我們都很清楚現在的台灣年輕世代的媒體使用習慣幾乎都是在手機結構性的轉變越來越多人已經不是依賴電台電視他們基本上都是IG"},{"start":8417.088,"end":8441.99,"text":"YouTubeTikTok但在這個還有翠拉最近的星星這些短語音跟社群的平台來獲取新聞跟資訊但是在今天的報告中我沒有看到沒有看見公共媒體的新媒體策略與年輕受眾之間的一個清楚連結例如公共媒體目前在哪些平台有年輕族群是實質接觸的"},{"start":8442.771,"end":8465.454,"text":"有哪些類型是內容最能夠接觸觸及到年輕這些受眾的還有公廣集團是否能夠進行年輕族群媒體行為的一個系統分析其實我也希望這個應該是文化部應該有所協助督促大家一起來努力的因為大家都希望讓這些公共媒體的"},{"start":8466.789,"end":8488.445,"text":"能夠真正接觸到年輕人我們也希望不要再是節目導向而是受眾導向我們可以看到BBC NHK都強化短影音社群的敘事記者個人品牌化的媒體讓國際的議題能夠更淺顯易懂更可以被分享的形式"},{"start":8490.086,"end":8509.739,"text":"來達到年輕世代他們能夠看到的平台所以我們現在這個部分的完整策略很少看到也希望不管是文化部還有今天胡董事長各個公廣的一些我們相關的策略應該要抵定董事長我講完這些策略跟這些目的您覺得呢"},{"start":8510.563,"end":8536.715,"text":"是 我們相當認同因為在整個未來的傳播生態裡面就是如何要運用包括AI轉型在內讓更多的年輕世代能夠接觸到公共服務的內容這個就是我們現在整體在進行而且有一套戰略的思想在後面做一個支持好 今天主席站起來我是希望說董事長你可不可以對於短語音社群敘事跟新聞創作者的新形態內容"},{"start":8538.513,"end":8564.508,"text":"能夠提出一個更具體的一個做法會後能不能在一個月內提供資料給我好 公廣計劃的部分沒有問題因為我目前真的很擔憂所以現行的做法給我未來的做法 精進的做法也給我因為我目前看不到能夠有更具體的一個做法所以這部分一個提醒也請你精進以後把資料給我 可以嗎沒有問題好 謝謝謝謝羅廷維委員董事長請回座"},{"start":8574.079,"end":8591.311,"text":"請謝龍介委員質詢主席 我請補充議員部長委員你好補充 我說萬能路有問題"},{"start":8605.047,"end":8620.732,"text":"我聽得懂,但是我不一定的,你說不沒關係?不簡單喔,如果說到事不宅宜,你可以隨時給我通知,我計劃不怕有來跟你對話。你真的說不沒關係?不然的話,我身為中華民國國民,請問你呢?"},{"start":8632.506,"end":8644.054,"text":"也是跟你一樣一樣喔那你是不是中國人你講到這個我是台灣人你是台灣人是啊你是中華民國的國民你變台灣人那現在說什麼人一個認同啦我是台灣人啊中華民國國籍啊台灣人是一個靈動靈動啊我是台灣人我是台南人"},{"start":8661.804,"end":8683.354,"text":"中華民國不是叫做中國 不會叫什麼國因為有一個全世界的中國就是中華人民共和國所以你們就是自己跳進那個陷阱要勇敢表達中華民國的資金中華民國從1911年到今天還有12個國家勝利我們是資金獨立的國家"},{"start":8690.646,"end":8704.355,"text":"台灣國沒有本人的聲音所以不需要用這個錯誤的概念要勇敢 你可以說你台灣人你為什麼不敢說你中國人中華民國 你娘是中華民國的親戚你做的是中華民國的文化部長但是我們的優勢 我們的競爭力就是因為中華制度不敢"},{"start":8718.444,"end":8747.484,"text":"他們的制度跟我們的制度完全不一樣 對不對所以要怎麼去追求和平 撇免戰爭就是大家可以競爭 也不要戰爭制度的競爭 我們的制度比他更好啊我們這樣認定 我們要去跟他競爭啊讓大家了解啊 你不是 都在想一直想 想到不行 他們更好 我們更壞你自己做事情 沒必要"},{"start":8749.295,"end":8772.842,"text":"中華民國是一個民主化,充分民主化,所以有100%的自由,是不是?是啊!對不對?這是我們的優勢啊!是啊!我們的年輕人,尊重自由,所以我們的年輕人很有創意啊!所以我們的年輕人、病人的年輕人,有超越他們的所在啊!"},{"start":8774.266,"end":8784.516,"text":"有他們的優點,我們有我們的優點,為什麼我們年輕人不可以跟年輕人競爭?要勇敢去競爭,不是小康小胖要製造戰爭嘛。台灣中華民國一樣,我們有我們的優點,為什麼中華民國不可以跟我們說?開水合作都台灣,台灣你比我還要愛台灣。"},{"start":8798.592,"end":8808.175,"text":"我們小時候是不應該講台灣這兩年不知道你有記憶嗎沒有啦小時候怎麼不可以講台灣我們做小時候的事情都不應該講台灣電視公佈都不應該講台灣不是不可以講台灣那是以前特殊在講做報紙做到買了戒嚴時代都不應該講台灣我們住在台灣我們是台灣人不應該講台灣這是什麼事情"},{"start":8826.081,"end":8834.845,"text":"現在開始可以說了,但是問題是…我從小就一直說,有時候叫法國國會比較痛,不是不能說,有時候可以說,但是不需要用政治,所以過去叫做白色恐怖,過去叫做威權,你現在說比威權更威權,現在不能說中華民國,沒必要啦。"},{"start":8853.345,"end":8858.969,"text":"我們的優勢要提出,包括你的公共電視,對著社會要富裕、教育的義務和責任,不能隨波逐流,整天要做什麼,當然你很辛苦在經營。"},{"start":8874.332,"end":8901.055,"text":"台灣跟日本來做一個比較 災難跟經費完全都不能消避 自主性當然會降低那麼自主性降低呢 公共電視會富有社會教育極端的責任這點呢 我希望說 不需要去追究什麼的 這沒法啦 無所不知今天"},{"start":8902.458,"end":8910.808,"text":"在中華民國裡面如果你的公共電視可以對國民三省譬如國際省的議題"},{"start":8914.536,"end":8933.743,"text":"國際的思想包括科技的先進新科技的發明將來都能在第一時間透過公共集團內所有的媒體去做出對國民富有教育意義"},{"start":8936.674,"end":8955.474,"text":"會選拔那這樣就對了慢慢你的穩定在國民裡面對你的信心建立你的權威啊你說今天為了要做這個節目來配合什麼配合什麼我認為是去公共電視元素創立的意義啦我不知道你怎麼看"},{"start":8956.833,"end":8970.604,"text":"現在覺得我們公安電視不教你這樣說的 說要配合什麼政策 那是以前的事情啦以前戒嚴時代 我就看不到你對社會教育的責任嘛 都在那議席上台有啊 公安電視的節目都是金鐘獎 得很多內容這樣就沒意義啦"},{"start":8977.029,"end":8999.559,"text":"你看你又在說什麼 你不是還陷入那些古詩語裡面我的意思就是說 我的意思就是說對著世界新科技對著國際特殊 包括對著國際時俗包括台灣 包括中華 包括所有的新事物"},{"start":9001.103,"end":9014.094,"text":"親屬部都可以透過公共集團在快速的時間讓我們國的國民可以很清楚理解那麼了解國際 了解外部"},{"start":9016.776,"end":9041.502,"text":"主人可以去化解內部的矛盾和衝突不可以有太多的意識形態今天民進黨執政有它的意識形態臨江和國民黨執政還有它的意識形態對這個社會的和解完全沒有幫忙這是我對你最大的期待啊你還要跳進去要拿多少獎獎是怎麼辦"},{"start":9044.673,"end":9070.003,"text":"沒意義啊 公共電視要臨時很多委屈你會臨時很多委屈 但是你做正確的事情可以讓國民對你的信任會提高雖然你過年中有比較委屈 有比較辛苦但是辛苦的事情沒有人要做我告訴你 大家都要做勤課的這樣就沒意思 委託你來做博鳥就沒意義了嘛 是不是這樣"},{"start":9073.044,"end":9085.447,"text":"是啊所以在這裡本身跟你說的這個風雄我是希望你約束這個集團 讓他們做一個調整 讓他們提升這沒什麼 我跟你問這個事情 其實是希望你做一個戰略性跟風雄性 指標性的調整這樣讓我們國的"},{"start":9097.625,"end":9118.561,"text":"公共電視的發電能夠輕鬆一盛流,會跟我們不一樣過去大家對公共集團的信心都不足,希望在你的端端之下,我們能夠提出一個新的規劃、新的風雄我不知道你能不能分析這種資料嗎?"},{"start":9121.067,"end":9123.608,"text":"我剛才提出未來對領導、公共電視、公共集團就本席剛才向你探討的這裡提出一個新的指標性的關鍵"},{"start":9144.593,"end":9154.578,"text":"1個月時間你提供給我提供什麼東西你給我說清楚因為我聽不到沒關係我回去我會跟你的聯絡人說我希望你可以因為你說清楚我就知道要給你什麼"},{"start":9162.302,"end":9176.007,"text":"是是是 所以我告訴你 你不要動作聽話 跟我一直聽 我一直說啊因為你的題目太大了 你的題目太大了你比較清楚一點 我給你回答沒關係啦 我要求我不要亂回答的事 因為我剛才說的每一點都有說出來是可能你沒有辦法 要再翻譯一遍"},{"start":9188.111,"end":9203.484,"text":"沒關係 我的書袋 我請外傭公司請教 希望你一國未來對著未來 公共電視發展 能夠支標性 是不是可以這樣走我們可以再探討 好 感謝你好 謝謝謝龍介委員 部長請回座"},{"start":9217.088,"end":9226.826,"text":"請范雲委員質詢有請部長有請李部長"},{"start":9231.648,"end":9250.371,"text":"方委員你好部長好我也先回應一下剛剛那個謝委員因為我們現在在國外這個中國人中國到底是China還是PRC還是ROC其實問題很大就是中國人到底是文化的概念還是國籍的概念非常的不一樣"},{"start":9250.931,"end":9274.628,"text":"因為它非常的混淆所以我現在都說ROC或PRC因為這樣最清楚了那剛剛部長有講得很清楚但是我們那個謝龍謝武元你知道為什麼一直糾纏一個沒有辦法分辨在中文字的意義上很難分辨清楚的因為很多人講中國人的時候他其實講的是Chinese是一個華人的概念所以必須要看就是他講的脈絡"},{"start":9276.309,"end":9291.028,"text":"那我今天想問因為我們那個召集員有規定大家一定不能離題但我本來就準備問這個空廣董監事的這個議題當然就是說各界都有呼籲再加速改革"},{"start":9291.648,"end":9319.819,"text":"我知道文化部一直都在積極作業中所以部長最近就是非常的謙遜還為此道歉強調說人選一直在挑目前只差一位會再努力我也知道根據新聞報導你們審查會議已經開始了預備會議我想先請問部長目前你有沒有計算過你總共詢問過多少人士"},{"start":9320.319,"end":9336.238,"text":"出任公廣集團的董監事那得到的回覆是怎麼樣我數字沒有辦法回答因為我問過很多人就是我心目中有蠻多人可以蠻適合這個位置但是因為我一再強調過去"},{"start":9338.752,"end":9355.48,"text":"以前當到公共電視的董事或者監事是一個非常榮耀的職位我記得第一屆1998年的時候公布出來的那個名單大家都覺得充滿了榮耀可是經過了快30年的這個過程中已經變成是一個大家聽完就覺得"},{"start":9356.46,"end":9375.618,"text":"唯恐避之而不及的一個位置為什麼因為有兩次快要到一千天有兩次快要到一千天都選不出來有一次是49個人被刷掉30個我請問如果這個人在社會上有他地位的話他為什麼要被你糟蹋這是我一直要解釋的就是"},{"start":9376.238,"end":9395.211,"text":"今天真的是一个共业今天走到这个地步让我约不到人这件事情是非常痛苦的我并不是故意要脱而且也没有阴谋因为这个没什么好阴谋的但是我真的约不到我想要的人应该这样讲所以你问我多少人我真的是我甚至于到家里去拜托都没有用"},{"start":9395.984,"end":9400.508,"text":"所以部長剛講的一個歷史過程本來可能是不是找人難是審查拖了很長的時間對不對那連續這樣下來之後現在公共電視這個董事已經變成不是個大家感覺很光榮的而是避之有孔不及像剛剛所講的"},{"start":9416.04,"end":9430.196,"text":"這麼高的淘汰率就任何有文化聲望的人被糾纏一下他覺得好像反而就是身上還中了好幾刀而且也沒有辦法得到這個位置可是我們看就是哇"},{"start":9430.837,"end":9455.219,"text":"居然應該這個不知道是誰居然提出就是說現在是文化部或是民進黨政府裝死擺爛耍無賴那延任的規定就沒有意義了還已經提出修法如果公視董監是因為文化部沒有提出名單無法在滿聘前成立則不得延任部長你怎麼看這個修法"},{"start":9456.078,"end":9476.968,"text":"其實我覺得公共電視快要三十年了最近的修法是最棒的一次譬如說降到三分之二對那三個條件太棒了就是那個天花板拿掉九億第二個審查的時候三分之二而不用到四分之三還要把人數又降回到原來的人數你知道嗎"},{"start":9477.808,"end":9492.428,"text":"在這20幾年的過程中為了要換掉總經理跟董事長在立法院把董事人數增加到20幾個其實我們不忍心回頭看那個過程是如何虐待一個公共媒體的"},{"start":9493.149,"end":9518.117,"text":"这个是我实在不愿意讲然后现在终于把它回到一个原点回到一个比较正常的方式那你说我刚刚一直在解释回到原点应该是我的责任赶快拿出名单对吗我没有理由不拿出来而且我中间非常希望赶快拿出来不然我不会在去年11月我们就启动而且有公文来证明我去年11月就开始做可是这个过程真的是很难产"},{"start":9518.797,"end":9542.127,"text":"然后一再跟大家讲大家都不相信你说找15个人很容易啊当然很容易我讲完之后我就收到很多推荐啊我收到很多人推荐说我可以当然可以可是我多么希望我把名单拿出来之后这次的审议委员一次就通过否则我又开始我又开始轮回到像过去一样的那个拖时间"},{"start":9543.702,"end":9563.258,"text":"我想今天也是透過這個質詢也是呼籲千萬不要這樣因為這個責任就像剛剛部長講的它可能是個歷史共業因為不管是誰當政都發生過使得今天人非常的早而不是賴給文化部所以如果"},{"start":9563.738,"end":9581.449,"text":"要休掉延任的話現在延任只是救急不能夠像憲法法庭一樣被癱瘓我覺得那才是更可怕的也看一下數字因為剛剛有人都只看第七屆我們看一下第五屆第五屆也接近一千天那個時候是馬政府"},{"start":9581.789,"end":9609.768,"text":"在執政的時候所以如果這個不管是審查或者找人的過程中就是慢下來那如果延任就是護航的話那馬政府不就等於護航三年了所以我想請大家要有歷史感那時間有限我也是要提醒一下過去很多專業被踐踏歷史教授台大歷史系的教授就因為研究過228就被指控撕裂族群"},{"start":9610.589,"end":9627.119,"text":"反對擔任這還是一個好像跟如果要說二二八的研究有政治的話那我們看到謝明佑因為唱本土歌曲很多人喜歡也被否決柯玉芬我找不到他任何有政治色彩的記錄被否決"},{"start":9627.899,"end":9640.034,"text":"赫肇提是性別就是議事的一個紀錄片知名導演也被否決郭立新這個應該也沒有任何的跟民進黨政府關係的證據都被否決我想這些"},{"start":9643.698,"end":9672.342,"text":"文化人都被否決的話那我想沒有人敢再隨便答應部長的邀約所以我也呼籲一下公事董監事遴選是大家的事情未來審查的時候就像部長講的希望能夠一次順利那部長千辛萬苦找到的我們相信就是專業的把國家跟文化的願景放在心上的而不是考慮任何一個政黨之私那我希望"},{"start":9672.702,"end":9690.919,"text":"审查委员也可以尊重专业最后要追一下一个我之前问的议题不知道部长记不记得六月的时候我有要求文化部在文化工作契约里面要加强规范杜绝文化工作中的性暴力"},{"start":9691.779,"end":9711.698,"text":"那我也要先肯定文化部過去做了非常多的工作修改就是給獎很多的部分那我後來發現就漏了一個就是有些時候跟獎項無關是跟一些承攬或者得到文化部的補助的一些劇團它內部的這個工作規範"},{"start":9713.439,"end":9737.605,"text":"那我不知道部長怎麼看因為文化部給我的回覆似乎是沒有辦法處理因為他們到底能不能夠主張損害賠償譬如說一個團員在表演的過程中那是文化部的補助中間發生MeToo事件是加害人那現在看起來都只能夠由負責人自行決定是不是跟各成員簽訂這契約我覺得消極了些當然"},{"start":9742.386,"end":9766.664,"text":"一个团体他跟成员之间的约那比较是他们各自的规范到底是成懒牢固甚至适用哪一个法律是性别工作平等法什么都不一定但是我们去查了一下国际经验我认为你的这个文化艺术工作者成懒及委任契约的指导原则既然是指导原则部长是不是评估一下"},{"start":9767.344,"end":9793.631,"text":"原本裡面指導原則就有勞動基準法那也納入性別平等工作法等相關勞動與性別平等法令可不可以考慮一下既然是指導原則那我給部長一個例子因為時間到了我們辦公室去查一下因為我們想總不能憑空就叫文化部做一個這樣的事英國的藝術政策委員會叫做Arts Council"},{"start":9793.991,"end":9813.436,"text":"他在網站上就有非常清楚的給所有要拿他的補助的團體的NPO非營利組織不管是藝文團體博物館或者是圖書館都要自己提出一個平等行動計畫那有一個大概是六七頁的這個計畫怎麼寫"},{"start":9815.296,"end":9844.896,"text":"从他的marketing如何到他的团员的recruit到他的目标的设定那这代表他们的Art Council艺术政策委员会致力于在行动当中在给奖助的过程中所补助的团体都是支持平等跟促进多元的那部长可不可以考虑一下我刚刚所讲的东西就是评估能否修正你们的指导原则加入性别平等工作坊"},{"start":9845.516,"end":9861.57,"text":"相關的這個法規好不好是 我們回去研究這個這條好 那部長這個多久之內可以給我一個初步的書面報告應該一個月三個月三個月好 沒關係三個月好 謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝委員好 謝謝范宇委員部長請回座我們現在就休息五分鐘再繼續質詢"},{"start":10188.721,"end":10212.148,"text":"好報告委員會我們現在繼續開會請葉元之委員質詢你好先麻煩先請那個部長好有請李部長"},{"start":10217.27,"end":10236.281,"text":"葉委員你好部長你好我先來問一下大家關心的一個剛剛發生的事情就是現在因為那個韓國他的電子路徑卡把台灣的國民旁邊弄了一個揣拿對不對然後所以外交部很生氣然後執政黨立委說一定要讓他付出代價"},{"start":10237.242,"end":10262.04,"text":"然後後來我們外交部也很嗆就是說看了台韓的貿易有巨額的逆差顯示兩國關係有不對等之處與待威脅讓人家感覺是不是要透過貿易的行為就商業的交流給他一點教訓付出代價以文化的角度來講的話當然韓劇還有韓團對於台灣人對於韓劇韓團的支出一定是大於我們台劇 台團"},{"start":10267.183,"end":10283.273,"text":"吸收到外匯嘛所以這個部分也有如果按照外交部的看法的話也有不對等之處啦所以大家很擔心說文化部會不會配合外交部做出一些抵制韓團跟韓劇的作為那部長你自己的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":10284.361,"end":10303.675,"text":"你會覺得文化歸文化不要吵到政治嗎不是 我想文化部不是喔不是 文化部就會照文化部原來的政策往下走我不會一定要配合誰你不會配合文化部但是我跟你報告一件事情是一個好消息就是這一兩年來我們跟韓國之間的那個隱居的合制"},{"start":10304.215,"end":10321.734,"text":"的情况越来越多然后韩国对于台湾的文化也越来越感兴趣我想你大概听过一个韩国人对台湾感兴这四个字他们对台湾感兴这四个字非常有兴趣所以我们今天才刚刚办过一个首尔书展是以台湾台湾"},{"start":10323.055,"end":10349.707,"text":"可以就是反正我們現在台韓的交流就繼續往前走然後這個我們也希望說我們賺到那個韓國的有關於韓團就是我們的台劇我們的台團也可以賺到外匯但是現在雖然說可能他們賺比較多一點有不對等關係但文化部不會配合外交部做出抵制的行為這樣子講那個歌迷或者是一些韓迷就放心了對不對"},{"start":10350.327,"end":10374.502,"text":"我一向是比較積極一點 希望台灣自己的東西這另外一回事啦 跟我問的沒關啦至少就是他們如果要抵制的話 跟文化部沒有關係我們不會抵制韓團 也不會抵制韓劇啦韓流都不會抵制啦 政治歸政治 文化歸文化啦我們在合作拍片啦反正那個部長並沒有配合他們的戰狼外交啦沒有說要他們付出代價啦 你沒有嘛"},{"start":10376.033,"end":10401.871,"text":"你這樣講我們台灣很多喜歡韓劇韓團的人就放心了這是先確定一下接下來來問一下就是公廣集團的問題先問 先講台灣Plus因為台灣Plus一直是大家非常關心的一個媒體為什麼 因為花很多錢過去說花了58億 編了58億但後來花多久可能有點出入但是接下來又要再花40億等於是8年要花百億"},{"start":10403.617,"end":10430.868,"text":"這麼大的金額效果怎麼樣我覺得這個大家一定要來檢討那現在是連監察院都看不下去監察院都認為效果不彰其中有幾件事情我看了我自己是覺得非常離譜第一個新聞的部分這個監察院的調查顯示說裡面所有的新聞決策是在少數主管的身上那最重要的一位呢他居然不熟悉中文也沒來過台灣他是住在紐西蘭"},{"start":10432.048,"end":10461.708,"text":"然後他是根據三位關鍵主管跟他匯報新聞的選題那這三位裡面有兩位沒有採訪經驗然後其中有一位政治立場鮮明我問一下部長部長我們當初要成立台灣Plus是說要把台灣的聲音行銷到全世界要講台灣的故事要做類似英國BBC跟日本HK這麼重大的台灣的這樣的一個重要媒體結果我們的新聞編採最主要的決策者他是一個"},{"start":10462.509,"end":10479.708,"text":"不懂中文那這個難道沒有什麼文化的落差嗎然後再來就是剛剛講那三個主管沒有三個其中兩個沒有編採經驗但他負責新聞的選題耶那其中還有一個政治立場先民請問一下他的政治立場是什麼"},{"start":10481.653,"end":10506.995,"text":"那一個唯一有採訪經驗的那個人政治立場是什麼偏藍偏綠我不知道偏藍偏綠監察院的報告你文化部有補助台灣plus錢然後當監察院做出這樣的報告出來文化部長說我不知道那監察院就寫他的關我文化部什麼事不是不是那個部長今天台灣plus他是歸你管的"},{"start":10507.535,"end":10535.166,"text":"那今天連監察院都做我不是 不是歸我管那預算是你補助的啊我編預算給他對啊 你給他錢你就有督導的責任啊文化部跟所有公共媒體都有一個關係就是我不能參與他的媒體決策那這樣子 你不能參與他的決策我負責編預算啊你還是要監督啊我監督在你還是要監督啊怎麼可能連監察院都這樣子寫然後你說你不知道那國人怎麼會相信呢我不能干預他主編是誰是不是外國人 是不是"},{"start":10535.706,"end":10558.384,"text":"你至少了解一下嘛不是啦 文化部如果是這種態度難怪台灣plus一直被檢討了嘛因為黨政軍退出媒體是一個大家花很多力氣才達成的我這是說監督那你如果這樣講的話監察院不用去監督啦監察院有監察院的角色你也有責任啦你現在推而已啦你也有責任啦希望你擔這個責任那是不是請執行長說明一下"},{"start":10560.865,"end":10579.02,"text":"各位委員報告監察院所調查的當然是在前一陣子的資料不過我們在今年6月開始您剛所提的這種外籍的編輯人員我們都做過調整現在是由本國籍的人來擔任總編輯還有相關的主管是因為監察院報告出來之後才改的嗎那之前怎麼這麼荒謬所以他講的是事實就對了"},{"start":10579.36,"end":10607.151,"text":"我們先前需要借助國外的編輯的經驗不是啦你成立的目的是向全世界講台灣聲音欸結果你找了一個國外的人來向全世界講台灣聲音這種邏輯你有辦法說服大家嗎有一半都是本國籍的同仁在講沒有沒有沒有你是說後來才改的嘛那他講的三位主管兩位沒有採訪經驗是不是事實他是合稿編輯不是採訪主管那一樣嘛他也要有新聞的經驗他有沒有嘛有沒有"},{"start":10607.631,"end":10631.698,"text":"有有有他有新聞經驗他的新聞工作經驗是什麼他在別的媒體在國外的媒體有不同的代表那有一個他說有政治立場他是藍還綠的我不曉得監委所指我天啊今天監察院報告出來媒體都公佈了然後結果你身為執行長你說你不曉得因為我沒有看過代表你們就是在擺爛嘛我覺得我不能接受你是執行長耶"},{"start":10633.393,"end":10641.724,"text":"你自己想 監察院報告都出來 新聞都報了結果問你執行長 你一問三不知然後你每一年要跟納稅人拿那麼多錢"},{"start":10643.308,"end":10661.936,"text":"把錢交在你的手上結果你做出這個樣子然後連檢討也沒有就推一句不知道這大家可以接受嗎我覺得你的回答你的回答全部人都在看那接下來你又要40億那請問一下他的政治立場是什麼他的政治立場是什麼怎麼會不清楚好 再來我們來看效果當時啊"},{"start":10667.199,"end":10680.722,"text":"那個台灣Plus講是主要的受眾是歐美國家嘛監察院說現在觀看數據67.6集中在亞洲只有20.8是在美洲那這樣的方向是你們要的方向嗎"},{"start":10681.625,"end":10701.23,"text":"監察院資料可能不是最新因為這個滾動式的每年在增加我們現在國外的百分之四十四九十四的觀眾都是來自於海外其中美國跟亞洲是占各半我問他當然是來自於海外嘛我現在講的是他當時的數據亞洲是六十七 接近七成嘛每週二十嘛這數據對還錯"},{"start":10702.93,"end":10724.374,"text":"大概一年多前是這年那現在最新是什麼現在最新大概海外的94%不是海外 美國跟亞洲美國跟亞洲都是海外對執行長你應該了解我們的我知道我知道每週是多少每週這個數據大概我可以更新因為到現在大概50左右每週是多少50左右每週有50將近50每週將近50了所以這一年你們現在每週50"},{"start":10728.629,"end":10750.257,"text":"你有資料嗎為什麼還要次長提醒你你不是執行長嗎你是執行長結果是文化部次長提醒你然後剛剛文化部部長又說他管不了TownPlus所以文化部對於TownPlus到底有沒有監督責任執行長不知道是由文化部次長來提供然後部長說管不了TownPlus這到底什麼機制啊TownPlus好奇怪的單位喔"},{"start":10751.712,"end":10761.884,"text":"所以美洲是多少所以美國是多少美國百分之四十五那亞洲現在多少亞洲的話我們有分像比方不用再分了就亞洲就好多少"},{"start":10763.141,"end":10788.644,"text":"亞洲其實在亞洲地區大概是百分之將近25左右現在剩下25所以最近有逆轉因為我不曉得因為我感覺你好像很不熟悉你的業務那我是不是不曉得說這個數據是真的還假的因為剛剛人家丟給你的你沒有掌握我提醒一件事情每週50還是不夠你看一下如果這個媒體是要對外講台灣的聲音你有沒有看到賴清德總統"},{"start":10789.625,"end":10813.84,"text":"他投書都投書什麼媒體美國媒體投書的多吧連我們軍購1.25兆預算第一時間都投書美國媒體對於美國人講所以他多重視那個市場賴總統三不五時上美國右派的Podcast的主持人的接受他的訪問就是要他有這麼多媒體去訴說我們台灣的聲音結果我們台灣自己成立的媒體"},{"start":10815.141,"end":10841.748,"text":"說要對全世界講台灣聲音結果以前每週只有20%現在最新的數據是15%我真的覺得這個媒體很奇怪非常奇怪然後再來你看有一個你們有好多節目比如說什麼Connected是不是 這個節目是你要不要去看一下它的成效它這個是有在你成立這個頻道是要幹嘛它有在"},{"start":10843.391,"end":10861.286,"text":"電視頻道還有在YouTube還有在臉書你用這個頻道講了什麼台灣的故事嗎他是在介紹台灣的一些各種產業或者是文化或者是各種多種議題透過訪談的方式邀請各位各種國際的訪客或者是裡面非常多跟什麼"},{"start":10862.982,"end":10882.836,"text":"很多什麼都是東南亞的東西啊您看到的其實有很多亞太地區的議題所以你覺得說花那麼多的錢用這個頻道效果很好這只是其中之一啦但是就花了很多錢嘛你們就開了很多節目嘛然後其實都花了非常多的錢嘛訂閱數也低 然後點閱率不高訂閱數目前150萬的國際觀眾訂閱不是 這一個頻道啦"},{"start":10888.079,"end":10906.851,"text":"這個頻道他目前是在你們就是開了很多不同頻道然後弄了很多team花了很多錢嘛那你一個頻道要去檢驗你不是每次回答問題都用一個總的數字嘛那這樣大家怎麼檢驗個別的頻道就像剛剛我問我問美國亞洲你就給我扯海外美國跟亞洲都是海外啊不要用這種方式在呼嚨啦"},{"start":10908.626,"end":10932.795,"text":"我覺得你們要接下來又要審預算了希望說你們可以提出具體的成效因為去年TimePlus在委員會討論就很久當時大家其實也說好那大概一年的機會可是看不出來嘛然後另外我請教一下你們現在要搬家是不是最後一下要搬家嘛你一年的租金租金辦公室的預算是編兩千萬嘛"},{"start":10933.982,"end":10951.612,"text":"是在松江路這個位置還有華市的都有我有跟你調資料啦我也幫你算過了啦因為松江路一個月是115萬然後華市一個月是33萬所以兩個加起來大概一年租金現在是1788萬沒錯吧那你們現在說要搬到華市"},{"start":10957.945,"end":10972.5,"text":"因為松江街這個要搬到華市因為松江路租期到115年1月沒問題這不用解釋我說確定嘛我就確定這個訊息嘛對不對好那華市一個月租金增加多少現在還沒有確實估算出來還在等沒有估算出來還沒有正式的報價還沒有報價好那我就問一個問題如果還沒有報價我們看後面你們董事會的討論"},{"start":10978.803,"end":10993.913,"text":"你們有一個董事說搬遷費用要五千六百萬光搬遷就要五千六百萬可是胡董事長袁輝講說雖然五年期估算整體租金會節省四百一十七萬"},{"start":10994.775,"end":11022.131,"text":"那請問一下台灣PLUS執行長剛剛說華氏的租金都還沒估算出來可是董事長就可以直接講說租金五年會省417萬請問沒有報價怎麼來的節省這是我們從現有的價格去推估那現有價格你們估多少有推估華氏增加多少就是推估這個樓層因為現在胡元輝董事長是根據華氏出租多少估的數字嗎多少同樣面積轉換過去以後多少嘛"},{"start":11023.288,"end":11048.607,"text":"大概因為現在還需要不不 副總市長你今天可以估得出來租金有節省代表說你有數字嘛你們估搬到華氏華氏是一個月租給你們多少一個月不是 第一個我們是12月在董事會才要做最後的確認這是第一因為主席站起來不要讓主席站太久我的問題很簡單因為你估得出來節省417萬你就是會有數字數字是多少"},{"start":11052.17,"end":11064.095,"text":"不是 這個是講那個松江路在那個辦公室租的話整體租金五年期因為有優惠所以節省租金417萬不是相對於華氏 對"},{"start":11067.922,"end":11095.132,"text":"那華氏現在數字還沒有出來因為12月決定以後才有好 那我問一個狀況華氏數字還沒有出來那也有可能因為你松江街一個月是115我先講我是支持你們搬到華氏為什麼 因為華氏虧損所以既然你time plus你要付租金出去那與其要付不如付給華氏因為是公廣節 我支持但是你還是你也是要去算那個成本效益因為你搬遷費這五千六百萬"},{"start":11096.141,"end":11120.209,"text":"你會不會到時候你節省的租金你節省租金結果搬遷費就整個吃掉了會不會出現這個狀況是 謝謝委員我跟委員很簡單報告這個搬遷費是台灣PLUS的初步估算那這位廖董事他是依據這個估算數字在討論這個問題所以這個不是確定的數字因為第一空間大小所以不見得是五千六百萬"},{"start":11120.829,"end":11138.277,"text":"當然我們希望它就跟委員的意思一樣如果移到華市有這個好處就是它可以把華市的租金收入來增加但這最後會多少取決於兩個部分第一個部分是使用的空間第二個是有關租金的計算方式但無論如何這都是我們考量的第一個"},{"start":11140.058,"end":11166.593,"text":"因為我們辦公室也調資料啦都一直不給啦那希望以後調資料可以給好不好可以給那大家就會減少在這邊討論的時間可以根據一個很明確的數字來討論所以不要隱瞞啦因為這麼多錢大家會想要知道怎麼運用尤其他們plus剛剛你講成效我覺得大家都一直打折扣啦好不好這個部分最新的資料出來請你給所有教育文化委員會大家都想要知道"},{"start":11167.293,"end":11190.947,"text":"好不好然後第二個就是我是不知道因為剛剛很多委員在問說公司的董事現在說已經確定名單了對不對那個部長已經名單你確定了對不對現在只是什麼時候要送的問題就是在等那個等那個確定什麼時候審查對 已經名單已經有只是不能公布因為你要等確認公布這我們都理解但是已經有了已經不像你以前講的剩一兩位還沒答應剩一位"},{"start":11191.787,"end":11205.459,"text":"不是 你不是都有了還剩一位現在都OK了嘛那盡快送 為什麼因為我們都其實很多人在講啦因為公視董事一直沒確認所以包括整個公視的團隊大家都有點那種帶退弟兄心態啦"},{"start":11206.397,"end":11229.044,"text":"因為都不確定新董事上任搞不好很多高階主管都要離開了所以快一點確認可以讓公司趕快上軌道我們會盡快配合審議盡快公佈給大家對 然後你快一點因為現在的很多董事可能會覺得接下來我也不知道要不要留任像重大的經費的一些決議像我們剛剛講那都是你說之前的董事搞不好也不知道狀況因為都會輕簧不接你趕快這些問題會解決很多所以希望部長"},{"start":11233.365,"end":11249.573,"text":"不要再拖了啦其實我對 你接下來就是好了 因為他站久了我我我好 你你講希望今年年底以前審議會趕快開然後全部通過OK因為如果我送出來又重演過去的話一千天耶"},{"start":11250.513,"end":11267.86,"text":"會要一千天再來一次的話你說你過去遇到的狀況不會再發生嗎那就是你拖比較久好不好別人拖的絕對不會你拖的久我拖的不算久如果他一千天的話比我久多了那我們都還沒發生你就是一千天我當然怕發生對啊你趕快啦現在就應該可以慢慢結束了好 謝謝"},{"start":11272.235,"end":11298.027,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員的質詢那謝謝部長當然也就是部長有擔憂但是我想還沒有發生的事情我們就先不要預測因為大家都希望往好的方向去發展好 謝謝那現在請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席有請龔氏董事長請胡董事長"},{"start":11301.874,"end":11329.339,"text":"委員好董事長好公視的底下有一個Pebble公民新聞我前陣子有接到中央部會 園民會來跟我提到說他們看到我們一則公民新聞上頭把園民會主委他的職稱寫成他過去的文化發展中心主任的職稱後來我去了解發現說"},{"start":11331.539,"end":11352.192,"text":"我一搜尋伍麗華在公民新聞竟然出現4500筆的資料我當然是很開心但是我細看之後發現好像都是拿我的臉書貼文去讓AI改寫而且寫得比我更好更吸引人那當然我是很高興"},{"start":11352.992,"end":11375.795,"text":"那這個部分我也有去跟公視這個地方辦公室有去要求說明那後來呢是把它下架了可是在立法院法治局裡面曾經做過一個提醒他提到說公視基金會作為我國關鍵文化與公共訊息之傳播平台云以駝"},{"start":11376.636,"end":11392.572,"text":"为严谋强化各项组织任性作为所以我想了解一下请教一下那公司基金会这边有做什么样的一个强化任性措施的一个检讨改善吗"},{"start":11395.493,"end":11412.225,"text":"請問委員問的是PayPal的部分還是問其他方面的任性作為都可以因為立法院法治局就是有提醒說公私基金會是我國關鍵文化與公共訊息的傳播平台所以特別希望你們要研謀強化各項的組織任性作為"},{"start":11412.745,"end":11433.59,"text":"好的 第一个很快的跟委员说明关于PayPal公民新闻平台它是一个让公民可以自行来传播他的报道或者他的意见的一张平台那我们设立了一个检举的机制那同时我们也设立一个委员会来共同自律这个平台上面的相关作业"},{"start":11434.19,"end":11452.235,"text":"那隨著這個社會的改變也許可能出現像委員剛才所擔心的會不會有人利用這個平台來造成假訊息的傳播那這個部分我們已經留意到我們將來會更加強這方面的作為也就是讓檢舉跟自律的機制可以更為強化所以你們只有透過檢舉"},{"start":11454.298,"end":11469.632,"text":"目前我们是检举所以有人检举你们才有办法没有我们当然平台还是有工作同仁会随时来询这个平台上面的一些状况如果有明显的有问题的这个po文的话我们还是会加以处理"},{"start":11470.525,"end":11494.377,"text":"我是覺得說要等人家檢舉才有作為可能沒有辦法去真正找到很多很多錯誤的存在所以我還是希望說再去研謀一下我希望聽到更好的一個測定作為還有希望給我提供書面報告好不好好 這個部分我們來研究好 謝謝董事長那接下來我想要請一下央廣"},{"start":11511.052,"end":11530.171,"text":"好 董事長好是九月份的時候我們看到有一則新聞蠻受矚目的就是央廣的官網竟然遭到放置五星旗結果一查不得了原來是自己內部的工程師那目前他們也被起訴了"},{"start":11531.552,"end":11560.197,"text":"我們是覺得很重要很Shock的原因是因為央廣它早期的歷史就是要對肥廣播是一個很重要的一個平台央廣就具備了我們目前媒體少數具備短波廣播能力的電台所以它是有發送情報的一個功能所以在當今是非常重要的一個具備戰略價值的一個平台"},{"start":11560.817,"end":11576.929,"text":"所以有可能暫時或重大災變中都可以透過你們的這個短波對外維持政府訊息的發布所以我們就很緊張啦如果說有這樣的一個內部工程師他們可以來去做這些事情那如果從內部去癱瘓然後"},{"start":11580.992,"end":11597.109,"text":"發布一個假設我們投降啦可能戰爭的時候你們就發布訊息說我們投降啦這個影響都非常的重大所以我也想要請教一下董事長你們在面對這次這個事件你們有沒有檢討那未來要怎麼樣強化"},{"start":11599.921,"end":11618.545,"text":"是抱歉謝謝謝謝委員質詢首先跟您報告就是央廣是自己發現我們的網站受到攻擊那這個您剛剛提到是說網站被放上五星旗事實上他是把美國的星條旗跟中國的五星旗"},{"start":11619.205,"end":11640.677,"text":"並列沒有關係這個我們都知道我只是想知道你們未來要怎麼辦謝謝我們已經做了內控的調整而且事實上出發部最近已經替央廣的資安升級所以我們現在是接受最高等級的資安測試那我們也都通過了那你們的人員管理呢"},{"start":11641.457,"end":11659.782,"text":"人員管理我們現在因應資安升級我們必須增加預算以及人力所以現在除了就是所以董事長你就是一直提到資安升等級那人員的進入呢像好比這位工程師對他聽說是從微軟過來的"},{"start":11661.943,"end":11688.015,"text":"那當然不是您看到的事實上坊間有很多的媒體的報導是誤導而且他自己向媒體的爆料都是亂講那所以呢我們都會把正確的訊息再提供委員那這個部分我們有很事實上檢察官起訴的資料裡頭有很多重大的訊息所以我們會再找時間因為今天排這個專報就是很希望"},{"start":11691.196,"end":11714.293,"text":"能夠了解因為各位都是很重要的媒體事業所以呢經營管理其實是非常重要的對而且資安最怕的就是碰到內鬼所以我們很幸運的抓到了內鬼而且我們移送法辦那這部分我也非常感謝文化部跟訴發部提供給我們的協助那這個部分我是希望說要有深切的檢討改進設計作為"},{"start":11716.494,"end":11728.601,"text":"所以我也希望就是提供書面報告讓我們了解好不好我們這個書面報告已經向董事會報告我也會很快的提供給委員好 謝謝那接下來想要請教一下部長"},{"start":11734.881,"end":11763.279,"text":"委員你好部長好因為大家都很關心台灣Plus而且也都記得您說過的那句話給他們一年的時間所以一年的時間很快就到了大家其實一直在爭議的就是我們覺得這是給國外看的一個國際頻道而且是要來認識台灣所以我們也寄予厚望"},{"start":11763.999,"end":11789.475,"text":"不過它之所以被大家一直檢討一直檢討就是我們普遍看到它的整個訂閱率觀看率好像都一直不是那麼理想所以會覺得說那我們編列的這個中長程計畫像這個110到113年的4年58億那其中這個台灣plus的預算4年總共拿到28億4千萬"},{"start":11791.576,"end":11813.719,"text":"就總覺得說這樣每年約7億的經費然後看不出它的成效就會讓大家覺得說很可惜就很想了解到底問題出在哪裡那到底要怎麼經營交給誰經營這個部分我不曉得說到底有沒有找到一個檢討改進的方向了 部長"},{"start":11817.546,"end":11837.474,"text":"其实这一题我是最不会回答的原因是就像我刚刚讲到有些华氏的问题一样它有一些根本的一开始有这个频道之后到现在它有很多的一个比较难解决的问题我是不是请执行长来回答执行长好来执行长请"},{"start":11839.346,"end":11864.962,"text":"好 董事長請好 謝謝董事長有關台灣Pulse的部分從董事會的立場來講我們知道它的基礎一些困難跟限制的地方不過我們責無旁貸那麼在這三年過程中我們的確發現了一些問題包括監察院的報告裡面有部分顯露的部分不過我也要很誠懇地說那並沒有充分諮詢我們的意見"},{"start":11865.905,"end":11883.085,"text":"那在这样的情况之下我们在去年就成立了一个调查小组来了解详细的情况而今年在今年当中已经进行相当多的改革希望能够把过去所遇到的一些问题或限制来加以处理这点要特别跟"},{"start":11883.846,"end":11903.531,"text":"这个委员说明那第二个是我们从客观的数据来讲我们现在海外的这种观赏浏览的次数时数还有跟国际合作的状态以及在国际上所产生的影响力事实上都有很多的证明可以证明它的确在成长中这一点也要请委员能够支持跟谅解"},{"start":11903.911,"end":11927.453,"text":"好我只是希望表達這麼多的立委在關注這個問題真的需要你們好好的來做一個專案來檢討那一定要找到原因要給我們希望要不然我們下次我們還是會問嘛對不對好謝謝董事長那主席不好意思再給我一分鐘就好想要問一下我們中央社"},{"start":11937.813,"end":11955.7,"text":"好 謝謝主席社長您好因為我們前陣子有看到中央社有提告一個台大博士生目前是已經和解最主要的原因就是他也不是故意的他拿了14萬筆的中央社新聞的資料拿去為AI去做訓練"},{"start":11956.96,"end":11969.484,"text":"那當然我們有看到你們的新聞稿也很受大家的肯定因為你們確實是站在保護媒體保護記者也希望大家來重視所謂的著作權特別是中央社的著作權因為你們是沒有在拿內容農場的東西來寫"},{"start":11972.105,"end":11996.631,"text":"但是我們就是想到就是繁體中文的語料庫很少那所以呢如果他限縮使用讓我們AI的繁體資料更邊緣化這個也是大家不樂見的可是到底新聞的資料能不能夠拿來訓練AI或者是新聞是否具有著作權這件事情我覺得還是大家很想要聽聽我們中央社到底怎麼說啦"},{"start":11997.811,"end":12021.639,"text":"所以我不曉得說中央社就是如何去看待以我來講現在大家都很會用Google的AI模式如果打我的名字進去它可能會出現六筆資料但是那六筆資料當中可能一則是中央社的一則是原明台的一則是聯合報的一則是反正它就是隨便幾萬筆資料當中它隨便用六筆的網站資料讓大家來認識伍麗華是誰那現在AI"},{"start":12024.52,"end":12037.947,"text":"到底他會被複製歧視複製錯誤等等那我只是想說社長您如何看待未來你們產出的這些新聞遭到AI的運用那這類的衝突未來會加劇那想要聽聽看中央社怎麼說"},{"start":12039.526,"end":12056.158,"text":"現在的AI進化非常的快所以無所不能所以在這種情況之下更加需要中央社作為可信賴的新聞資料來源我希望委員還有我們整個國家都要扶持中央社讓我們繼續堅持把好的新聞正確新聞做出來否則"},{"start":12056.858,"end":12076.511,"text":"市場上如果出現都是奇奇怪怪的寫法我們現在很多的面向的新聞在國內是媒家媒體寫的不一樣我相信大家都認為中央是最持平最正確所以希望能夠支持我們繼續能生存下來你剛提到這個台大生的事情是很優異的一個年輕人後來我們也就互相合作他以他的技術來協助我們然後我們來跟他們交換資源"},{"start":12078.973,"end":12095.582,"text":"好 那謝謝因為聽起來社長對於危機處理得很好那也希望中央社就如您自己所說的我們當然一定會支持那希望你們想辦法走在最前面讓我們的新聞至少有一個公正的平台好嗎好 謝謝社長 謝謝主席謝謝伍麗華委員質詢那所長請回座現在請張雅玲委員質詢"},{"start":12112.219,"end":12115.006,"text":"現在主席我們邀請部長有請李部長張委員你好"},{"start":12123.195,"end":12148.822,"text":"部長你好我想今天早上你也蠻辛苦的就是很多人一直試圖去挑戰一些非常敏感的議題但是我覺得有一個詞我自己非常的不喜歡叫做逆滲透就是說我們好像一定要輸出到中國一樣因為我想大家可以看到韓團韓劇現在的大流行是全球大流行而不應該只有鎖定一個中國的好像就是我們唯一的市場我們一定要滲透進去因為我想韓國"},{"start":12151.002,"end":12171.578,"text":"禁韓令限韓令是讓韓國一直都這幾年都沒有辦法進去中國的一個很大的主令那個主令是誰下的是中國下的就像兵棋部被吳玉景的停止了這些演唱會那是誰下的其實是中國最愛畫紅線最愛禁的其實就是中國可是今天早上大家通篇不談中國對於這個"},{"start":12174.76,"end":12190.711,"text":"各種的限制的一個影響的問題所以我覺得今天部長早上講的就是說我們把整個市場面向國際面向新南向是一個非常好的策略這也是符合這幾年不管是日本或是韓國他們在發展的一個方向所以這一個部分我是予以肯定也非常的支持"},{"start":12192.219,"end":12211.697,"text":"那再來就是說我想還是要回到我們今天的主題就是在今天呢我們的公廣集團要來這邊做在立法院受到質詢可能相比BBC或是NHK來說是比較辛苦的因為在他們的國家的制度下面"},{"start":12212.718,"end":12226.067,"text":"英國的BBC呢其實他的皇家憲章白紙黑字寫得非常明確就是他們保障BBC的編輯獨立也規定他的公共使命所以呢他並不受制於政府他也不聽命令做節目他就是面向公眾"},{"start":12227.523,"end":12255.334,"text":"那他主要的裁員呢是全民繳交的license fee也不是廣告也不是商業廣告也不是政府預算而日本的NHK的預算也就是來自於這個法規上面放送法的一個要求也要求他要保持公正編輯自主那他的裁員是來自於收視費所以只要家中有電視的人就需要繳費那這樣子呢就保障了他的編輯自主性也不受政府的預算所主導也就不會有像去年這個我們的政其他的政黨大砍"},{"start":12256.574,"end":12281.914,"text":"公共電視台的預算的一個問題那我也希望說我們是不是可以簡單的敘述一下去年我們在審查的時候多多少少還是砍了一些預算那到底對我們這個公廣集團的影響是什麼我想是不是請個別來講一下因為蠻具體的砍掉之後我們是不是可以簡短的具體的來講一下讓我們民眾知道這些還是受到影響的部分簡短"},{"start":12284.036,"end":12312.829,"text":"就是有些新制的時數會受到影響那尤其戲劇受到影響是最嚴重的戲劇受到影響最大是因為我們的製作費變少了好 了解那我們的公共電視或者是跟委員報告 台灣Plus因為預算少了兩億多所以在這個情況下很多國外海外落點還有合約的談判都終止了節目製作跟新聞的製作也要縮減"},{"start":12314.605,"end":12334.853,"text":"好的了解好那我想這樣子的說明是讓大家讓我們的民眾更了解我們的刪減預算影響的是什麼那製作費的部分跟台灣plus我後面都會再問那接下來我就想要請教一下就是說部長我們在這幾年其實公共電視法修法之後呢"},{"start":12336.877,"end":12357.287,"text":"我們的上線已經被解除了所以近幾年的預算大概是落在27到29億之間那這幾年尤其是今年我們可以看到我們軍中獎得了非常非常多優秀的作品像是《聽海湧》跟《星空下的黑潮島嶼》我認為都是非常非常重要的一個影視音的作品那"},{"start":12358.863,"end":12379.982,"text":"其實我們在看很多韓劇的時候呢大家都會去跟著這個景點去打卡那最近推出的一部片大萌它也是很多人開始去考古它在哪裡拍的啊然後那個時代的限制是在哪裡所以我相信如果我們的影視作品有一定的支持的話是可以得到這樣子的一個有這樣子的程度受歡迎的程度"},{"start":12380.662,"end":12400.694,"text":"但是我得到消息我們目前公司所獲得資源一年光做一部作品其實就差不多了所以尤其是在製作費整個大高就是跟過去幾年相比其實成長的非常多我們有沒有可能更多的支持呢來去讓他們有更多的製作費有沒有可能部長您的想法是"},{"start":12401.459,"end":12416.928,"text":"我其實非常謝謝委員提到這一點就是公共電視其實預算一直很低剛剛講到說它天花板拿掉可是它事實上二十幾億是好幾個頻道加起來官視主頻道還是差不多八九億所以"},{"start":12417.748,"end":12446.874,"text":"你想想看他每一年有很多還不錯的題材也開發成劇本了可是就是沒有錢拍據我知道他手上有好幾個案子都非常棒可是你只要沒有預算他就沒辦法做所以當我們在要求公款集團很多事情的時候應該今天還有委員講出來就是我們的預算跟全世界的公款集團比的話是非常小的沒錯 是但是我想說在文化部本部這部分我們是不是也可以多一點支持在公司的部分其實我們有盡量"},{"start":12447.654,"end":12462.726,"text":"想辦法支持他們很多計畫但是我覺得總預算把它升高總預算當然是要增加總預算升高是一個關鍵對 所以我想我不曉得部長就是說因為現在預算都還沒有進來省你會不會擔心說那接下來我們可能有一些新興的"},{"start":12464.315,"end":12484.211,"text":"不管是工作啦公廣集團這邊會不會受到影響你這邊會不會有這樣子的擔心呢會 其實我覺得我每次看到他們手上有好多那個IP可以拍都是因為卡在預算不夠我真的非常著急因為就是你給他錢他都不太夠的情況下如果你在砍預算的話他根本不曉得怎麼辦"},{"start":12484.932,"end":12505.814,"text":"因為一年拍不到一兩部戲劇這樣沒錯 是的 是的所以我想這邊也是呼籲我們的在野黨的立委啦大家都很在乎我們的文化要輸出不管你輸出到哪個國家重點整個國際的資本是這麼的雄厚那我們就應該要盡速的來去做支持的這件事情而不是惡意的去做相關不重要的一些刪除這樣子"},{"start":12506.394,"end":12532.601,"text":"好 那再來下一個問題就會回到台灣Plus那台灣Plus呢就是當年我們的公共定位其實是要面向世界跟世界敘述台灣那剛剛也有提到說我們的預算刪除之後我們跟國際的合作就必須喊卡但是在這個部分之前呢我想要再討論一個不管是監察院報告大家都有提出來我們的敘事觀點不夠台灣我想這個是非常非常重要的一件事情就像我們之前有一部紀錄片叫做台灣 Undoubted"},{"start":12533.141,"end":12557.789,"text":"他選擇了用閩南代表台語而非使用台語那這個當然我們在關心之後那其實馬上就處理了這件事情可是我覺得這個也就是很容易如果我們的編輯台也好或是我們合作的單位沒有這樣子的一個對於台灣的了解那其實呢就會造成一些問題那雖然說現在從編輯台上面從新聞上面來看"},{"start":12558.749,"end":12574.634,"text":"我們的台籍主管比例已經有提升但是我想也非常明確的主管雖然是台籍但是不代表他的敘事角度是非常以台灣為本土出發的所以呢我想了解就是說我知道我們現在有一些制度化的機制來去"},{"start":12575.154,"end":12592.268,"text":"做一些相關課程但是我希望這個課程可以面向更廣例如我們台灣的族群史語言的多樣性轉型正義的脈絡還有台灣認同的相關研究我們是不是可以邀請相關領域的專家學者來開課呢是不是可以我想請那個執行長來回答"},{"start":12594.821,"end":12609.088,"text":"謝謝委員特別是您剛提到各種不同族群背景的題目我們都未來會先請外部諮詢委員給我們指導包括像我們先前處理原住民的節目不夠周詳我們現在未來都會想跟包括像部落的長老或會議來諮詢作為我們"},{"start":12611.109,"end":12626.365,"text":"我想除了諮詢之外啦可能定期的上課因為你們現在本來就有在上課了嘛我們有教育訓練的課程對你們本來就有教育訓練的課程只是說我是希望這個教育訓練的課程是不是可以面向更寬廣一點是可以嗎我們大概每一季都有固定的教育訓練課程然後會面向國際讓台灣觀點能夠更充分的"},{"start":12626.465,"end":12654.451,"text":"那我們現在就是希望這個台灣觀點的課程內容更豐富那這點是可以做到的我們可以把這個課程再跟委員說明好那再來還有監察院也提出了一份報告就是說我們雖然說台籍主播比例達到了七成但是呢我們似乎有把口音視為一個評選的重點那我認為台籍比例是七成不代表我們沒有把口音視為一個評選的重點所以我只是在想說我們是不是可以去"},{"start":12655.391,"end":12679.838,"text":"在招募的時候不要去把口音列為是一個負面條件因為每一個國家他的口音其實代表他的一個語言的脈絡我們現在都保留本國籍同仁的本來的語音我們只是增加他的口條訓練因為其實我們在跟NHK相比他們也會有日籍的記者我們也是比照這個方法在改進現在都已經讓記者自己發揮但是在他敘事能力上要加以訓練"},{"start":12680.834,"end":12689.521,"text":"好 謝謝所以我們聽起來就是說口音不是一個負面排除條件了嘛對不對好 那在下一個我最後很快的問一下央廣後台的安全度可不可以請一下央廣"},{"start":12704.008,"end":12729.729,"text":"好 我想前面的許多委員都已經非常關心了我們陽廣的這次的事件那剛剛也有說明現在已經是最高等級也都已經通過了許多的一些這個測試啦那我想問一下就是說因為其實我自己在看的時候呢當然我們現在已經做了一些機制然後剛剛有聽到說你們有一些SOP但是我想可能有一些是特意透過系統的建置上面因為這次是內控那怎麼會"},{"start":12731.57,"end":12752.617,"text":"就是說我們會入局到什麼樣的人太難以去判斷可是其實有很多的系統包含我自己看不管是我們國家的許多的政府單位他其實都有建置一個像這樣子的系統就是如果偵測到異動的時候可以即刻主動復原或者是說即時進行通報來掌握系統的更動我想了解一下我們目前在針對這個部分是不是已經有做到了"},{"start":12753.217,"end":12781.651,"text":"我們現在正在加強中跟委員報告但是老實說其實要更新這些系統需要一些新的設備然後我們央廣在過去在這方面的資安的預算其實現在因為提升所以是要再加強所以我們這個部分是要一步一步的進行但是我們現在已經開始已經執行的包括零信任的管理然後另外還有就是"},{"start":12782.811,"end":12806.496,"text":"同仁要求定期的更新密碼還有我們現在在錄取同仁的部分會再加強做背景的查核這個是都已經在執行的我想就是說因為畢竟我們這個是一級我們現在是像是A一級關鍵基礎設施然後現在也是A級對沒錯那我想我們是不是可以在今年因為其實這個東西沒有辦法去等"},{"start":12807.256,"end":12821.822,"text":"如果我們有這樣子的系統的話我們就可以隨時的去避免這樣子的狀況就可以避免我們這個人認為的一個因素所以這個部分是不是在今年的預算上面也可以來去怎麼樣去反映來更新呢"},{"start":12822.242,"end":12843.173,"text":"因為現在預算還在審查當中但是你在編列的時候我們非常期待在能夠有這樣的預算但是這個你也知道陽廣是一個20個語言的廣播電台所以這個系統應該是有點龐雜所以我們非常希望這個預算如果我們自己不足的話希望也能夠得到行政院文化部"},{"start":12844.134,"end":12860.409,"text":"或者是所以你聽起來就是說我們會去盤點然後我們會去看多少的預算我們會去爭取嗎我們會去爭取好 我說要去爭取畢竟它是我們也對 因為它會代表的可能是非常敏感的一個議題是謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員執行那官員請回座"},{"start":12870.762,"end":12892.052,"text":"好 現在請林一錦委員質詢謝謝主席有請胡元輝董事長跟胡婉玲社長因為涉及到媒體獨立的事務我就不請李部長上台了請胡董事長跟胡社長"},{"start":12899.687,"end":12916.145,"text":"我想首先謝謝昭緯安排這場巡導不過首先我有兩點的提醒第一個是現在其實是預算會期而且已經年底了所以要請藍白不要再擋預算了趕快讓我們實質監督那第二是本席還是要強調"},{"start":12916.926,"end":12939.052,"text":"立委對於公共媒體的監督當然是天經地義可是如果立委對於公共媒體的獨立運作當然也是要絕對的尊重那絕對的尊重這件事情也是天經地義那我覺得如何拿捏那個必據原則就是讓我們既合作監督又不至於把政治那個手"},{"start":12941.012,"end":12965.674,"text":"過度介入公共媒體我覺得這也是全體委員必須要好好思考的事情那談到什麼是媒體營運的績效綜合胡董事長跟胡社長你們豐富的經歷我相信你們都比我更清楚公共媒體他這個跟商業媒體的績效不能混為一談那比起商業利益其實公共媒體身上"},{"start":12966.814,"end":12989.285,"text":"應該還有更重要的公共責任必須要被落實接下來我們就來探討公共媒體的公共責任先請教胡婉林社長您看我現在秀我在PPT上的這是1946年美國時代雜誌的報導它其實為我們做了非常重要的見證"},{"start":12990.646,"end":13005.232,"text":"整篇報導寫的都是當時中華民國佔領下了台灣中華民國那時候來台灣不到一年台灣人就完全幻滅然後抗議腐敗暴政的這個標語遍佈全台還有飢餓的人民燒毀糖產的倉庫"},{"start":13008.474,"end":13027.131,"text":"報導內容是這樣那這篇報導內容其實很精彩喔可是這個不是今天的重點而是1946年這個沒有網路新聞的年代人家時代雜誌可以把報導整理到網路平台去讓現代化的界面可以去查查到"},{"start":13028.272,"end":13056.399,"text":"這樣的一個新聞報導所以我想要請教說跟時代雜誌一樣都在1920年代前期創立的中央社那作為公共媒體為什麼它的公共性就輸了大家就是說我們中央社在網路上只公開近10年的新聞那明明最早就有數月化保存到1929年2月20號的稿子那為什麼要國人付費才可以瀏覽 社長"},{"start":13059.189,"end":13087.296,"text":"讲到这个体制我们一样有101年历史当然这整个跟我们国家的早年党国体制然后再转型我们开始成为财政法人演变有关系但我要讲的是我们中央社现在的社稿我们已经电子化可以搜集到是从1991年开始我们现在有35年非常完整的资料那么在那个之前没有全面所以有时候照相下来所以可以看得出是"},{"start":13088.016,"end":13108.303,"text":"固定的存稿的这个底稿那么基本上我们资料现在是相当齐全那当然我们有一组人力在在一大组的人力在维护这样的资料那如果政府能够百分之百支持中央社会我们大概就可以把这个资料更快的运用给所有无偿给所有需要的人"},{"start":13108.843,"end":13126.421,"text":"好 因為這就是公共性嘛那特別是著作權法的第30條的精神它就是說著作財產權它只存續在著作人生存的期間跟他死亡後的50年那超出這個範圍就是公共財產了所以任何人都能夠"},{"start":13127.382,"end":13146.524,"text":"自由利用更何況中央社跟公廣集團都是全民投資的這個媒體公共媒體那具備高度的公共性這是無庸置疑所以再請教一下胡社長就是說未來這些歷史資料是否可以應該就是無條件來釋出那當然"},{"start":13148.926,"end":13170.957,"text":"您剛剛的回答是說假設這個中央政府全力支持你應該也會這樣做那還是要請看看你的意見怎麼樣那還有這個胡董事長就公廣集團內是不是也有類似的問題那是不是也可以無條件來釋出這些全民納稅人這個稅金投資的成果"},{"start":13172.588,"end":13188.16,"text":"我中央社先表達我們願意我們在科技範圍內百分之百無償給大眾使用但是我現在要先講我們每年需要6億7的開支政府只補助我們3.2億今年又被扣了1600萬"},{"start":13189.561,"end":13218.628,"text":"我进来以后到现在我一年要筹将近四亿的经费所以如果四亿找得到我们很愿意这应该要落实我觉得作为国家通讯社我当我出去找预算的时候人家都告诉我不可能政府没有支持如果可以的话我们很愿意百分之百支持公共性预算方面当然我们要监督当然我也是希望让你能充分去运用可是我们公共性一定要把持住好那董事长呢"},{"start":13221.722,"end":13239.034,"text":"各位报告一下我们现在是2010年以后的资料都上了这个像YouTube还有我们的新闻网那因为那个涉及到数位化的作业那有一个重要的问题是因为影像资料它涉及到许多的版权的问题"},{"start":13239.674,"end":13255.74,"text":"对 所以那个部分会比跟文字的处理相对来讲就比较复杂不过如果是属于公益使用或者学术使用的部分通常跟我们联系而在我们人力可以处理的范围内我们也很乐意提供出来大概目前的状况是这样好"},{"start":13256.54,"end":13276.805,"text":"那再來我還是在談台灣Plus就是說它成立以來其實一直是在野黨的劍靶那其實好像恨不得要把台灣對國際發聲這個管道關掉本席對台灣Plus欠缺台灣脈絡的問題其實我有很多意見那相關的預算案我也都寫好了可是好"},{"start":13277.485,"end":13291.401,"text":"監督是為了讓台灣Plus更好而不是直接要讓它關台喔好 那其實台灣Plus遠遠不只是放送新聞而已它是要讓全世界認識台灣欸甚至是台灣的文化那當然是"},{"start":13292.742,"end":13313.574,"text":"特別是要讓全世界知道說有台灣這個台灣Plus這個國家的窗口那也因為如此我覺得台灣Plus在面對種種的挫折的當中我們看見的其實是台灣文化發展的悲哀那所以請教董事長如果這個會期還有人要大刪台灣Plus的預算你會如何捍衛"},{"start":13315.659,"end":13342.644,"text":"谢谢委员给这样的一个机会来说明基本上来讲诚如您所谈的台湾Plus应该就是向全世界来说台湾的故事这个是最重要的任务那在说这个故事的过程中我们的确有一些地方做得不够尽善也不够尽美这些事情我们都要检讨改进不过从整体来讲我们的预算如果拿英国BBC来讲大概在160亿台币拿"},{"start":13343.504,"end":13371.329,"text":"德国之声来讲一年大概在190亿台币那我们目前来讲当然这个经费大家都很清楚当然差很多那即使如此我们也不会认为这样的一个经费是不能够加以发挥的在8亿的预算基础之上事实上现在有非常多的国际媒体跟我们是在合作那因为有这样的合作所以让台湾Plus让台湾的故事有机会能够向更多的全球的公民可以来加以展现"},{"start":13371.869,"end":13400.162,"text":"那第二個是我們實際上新館有一些缺失但我們實際上在瀏覽人數瀏覽的這個次數和瀏覽的這個時數我們都是在明顯的顯著成長所以我想這些事情都應該是讓大家能夠了解好 陳其昌會長有一句話很有力量他說你不能只在贏的時候才愛他們所以我想我們國球棒球如此台灣的國家文化也當然要如此"},{"start":13400.822,"end":13429.789,"text":"那日本韓國跟台灣一樣其實都在發展屬於自己的這個國際平台嘛就像台灣plus那可是跟台灣不一樣的是人家日韓就是在娛樂產業啊觀光啊藝術這個多面向的工作他已經有長年累積的這種成果也就是說全世界在早就在買單日韓的文化的狀態下那他們就會願意進一步來看他的所謂的國際平台"},{"start":13430.569,"end":13457.287,"text":"那台灣不一樣就是我們的文化跟我們的國際媒體就是在逐步推進的過程中當然就如同您說的步步不容易可是一個國家這個國際媒體的發展當然很顯然必須要打一場跨文化領域的這個團體戰那方方面面的這個文化內容都必須要提升一起來拉拔所以胡董事長你認同這樣嘛所以也要跟文化部去密切合作對不對"},{"start":13459.654,"end":13475.971,"text":"这个跨领域的团体战的确是很重要对公广集团来讲它也只能够扮演其中的一个角色我们也很希望跟其他的文化领域一起来做目前来讲我们一方面已经成为跨入国际公共领域的一座桥"},{"start":13476.852,"end":13502.534,"text":"那因为让我们能够在国际的公共媒体的领域里面很容易能够发声那第二方面是我们也是跨境国际数位平台的一块砖因为我们现在有很多作品有机会能够进国际的平台让全世界来看那我们愿意在这两个力量之下跟其他的领域一起来协作好 谢谢主席不好意思再三十秒就好我请一下李远部长 谢谢"},{"start":13505.185,"end":13527.717,"text":"部長我們上個禮拜有去看大峰之島的手印喔那我想你看了應該也非常有所感那熱身這個問題我想你也有深入的了解那上一次的這個預算審查過程中我就有邀請您要到熱身去看一看特別是去了解這個世界遺產潛力點的狀況那不曉得這個熱身刑什麼時候可以成行"},{"start":13528.912,"end":13545.254,"text":"樂森因為我一直想了解他那個來龍去脈是但是我所知道的是因為是他整個都是衛福部的那個預算跟衛福部在他的那個他在主導全部的事情那文化部在裡面的角色就是"},{"start":13546.295,"end":13574.953,"text":"在一個委員會裡面有一個人負責是把文化的意見給他那我看完這個大峰之島之後我覺得我本來認為我們能夠介入的東西真的很少因為已經做到今天這樣子了我已經開始進行管理啊什麼那我想看了這個電影我覺得得來不易我想我在最短時間最短時間內會去邀請這個衛福部的部長我們一起來針對這個事情再一起談"},{"start":13576.094,"end":13594.689,"text":"因為確實是因為我有世界遺產潛力點這個因素所以我覺得應該要熱血起來熱血文化部是以我來顧之類的好不好那天我有看到那個愛蒂雅協會一封長信給您他們有提出很多訴求"},{"start":13596.01,"end":13621.886,"text":"那我想說是不是也給本席一些完整的回覆好不好好 沒問題針對這些剛剛提的訴求我會很仔細的回答看看有什麼事情我做得到有什麼事情做不到然後我會去跟衛福部的部長我們見個面來更仔細的談一談讓他保留花這麼時間保留下來之後可不可以發揮更大的文化的效用好"},{"start":13622.606,"end":13642.532,"text":"那你預計什麼時候會比較完整的回復熱身我想要一個月以內因為我明天就想我明天就想跟部長見個面跟他談這個事OK 好 謝謝謝謝部長謝謝董事長謝謝社長謝謝主席好 謝謝林一錦委員那首長請回座位現在請翁曉琳委員發言翁曉琳委員"},{"start":13651.98,"end":13671.13,"text":"翁曉琳委員不在請吳佩奕委員發質詢好謝謝主席我請這個公共電視文化事業基金會胡元輝董事長請胡董事長"},{"start":13675.64,"end":13694.305,"text":"董事長好之前我們有跟你們關心過因為現在其實很多國家的媒體都有在開發AI應用聊天機器人來導入這個新聞資料庫那例如說這個瑞典的報紙就有針對歐盟選舉有推出一個AI機器人那美國華盛頓郵報跟瑞典的廣播電台也都有這個相關的應用"},{"start":13698.966,"end":13716.375,"text":"之前我們在關心的是我們的公廣集團像我們的央廣中央社我們自己的相關的這些公共的媒體等我們的新聞資料庫其實累積非常的多那近年來台灣一直是全球接受這個假訊息影響"},{"start":13717.375,"end":13738.016,"text":"最影響程度最嚴重的一個國家所以我們在關心的是我們這些公廣集團的新聞資料庫能不能夠來應用作為AI的聊天機器人讓國人在有這些問題需要來查詢的時候能夠有一個可信的新聞資料庫來使用"},{"start":13739.686,"end":13755.718,"text":"谢谢委员的关心,对,这的确是我们非常重要的,要推动一个AI聊天机器人的重要因素,那我们目前看到很多的研究,那发现在一般通用的聊天机器人里面所给予的错误答案甚至是超过50%,"},{"start":13757.299,"end":13771.946,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下我們又面臨境外的不實訊息的攻擊如果我們對台灣的事物或者對國際的事物沒有一個正確可信的資訊的話這是非常嚴重的問題那我們的進度如何明年有沒有辦法來完成"},{"start":13772.566,"end":13790.315,"text":"我們現在正在跟中央研究院智科所做緊密的確認那印象中好像合約已經進行到最後的階段我們希望如果能夠順利的話希望能夠在明年底之前就能夠有一個Alpha版或是Beta版好 因為這兩戶是現成的"},{"start":13791.556,"end":13793.818,"text":"那這個也討論一段時間所以呢我們很肯定但也希望我們這個進度要能夠來如期來完成好的接下來跟董事長關心的是小公事開台的時候我們教文會很多委員都有去這個開台的這個活動因為期待也是期待非常久了"},{"start":13807.97,"end":13828.972,"text":"是台灣要有專屬於兒少的影音平台由共廣集團來營運那當中大家很關心的就是那我們的兒少節目的自製率那我先看了一下我們小公視去年的營運當時我們在開台的時候其實是有設定一些目標例如說我們希望這個新制首播的比例當時你們訂定是20%"},{"start":13830.413,"end":13837.884,"text":"那我們的公視兒少教育資源網的訂閱數你們的目標是要成長到50%節目產製時程的目標是362小時這些我們都有達標嗎目前都在我們的進度上"},{"start":13845.714,"end":13868.13,"text":"目前在進度上而且我看有一些我最關心的就是你這個新制新制的這個比例你們的實際上最後是達到是34%那麼我看了一下那今年的我們新制的節目你們是說是32檔那我們今年到底我們今年自製節目的比例可以到多少"},{"start":13869.158,"end":13885.537,"text":"其实公式的儿少节目一直以来都是自制比较高其实这也就是目前儿童节目产制这个环境一大问题比较高的话比例是多少其实现在就是说大概一半以上都还是自制"},{"start":13886.878,"end":13900.363,"text":"但是現在我們慢慢要增加偽製節目的量其實在這一年當中已經Trend了很多的外面的製作單位也開始做二超節目所以慢慢的偽製量也會增加因為不能所有的節目都有公視自己產製"},{"start":13901.483,"end":13924.758,"text":"是 我們想的自製就是說我們本土自製因為在我們預算中心的報告裡面他提到說目前我們小公司你主要時段就主要播出時段還是依賴外購跟重播所以認為說我們自製本土自製的節目比例應該要提升所以我再問的是以今年來說我們本土自製的節目可以達到幾成"},{"start":13925.779,"end":13934.179,"text":"其实我们内部的自己有个规定就是国外的比例不能超过15%大部分85%都是要国内产制的"},{"start":13935.543,"end":13962.879,"text":"今年85%是國內產製的還有就是資源的分配也是以國內產製佔90%那明年呢 明年有沒有訂定目標都是以這樣的長年都是這樣的目標好 我們就希望這個自製的比例要持續來提升那除了節目以外其實人才也是我們最主要的原因嘛因為我們要有能夠來製作我們兒少影音節目的人才我們有沒有相關的培育計畫"},{"start":13964.062,"end":13983.733,"text":"有的其实不断地在进行课程还有就是说国外我们像办儿童影展国外的一些老师来台湾我们都在国内办这个workshop就是希望国外的这些做儿童节目的老师们能够立刻对国内所有的业者都能够产生好的效应"},{"start":13984.474,"end":14005.315,"text":"因為我想小公視扮演的角色非常重要我們全國包括民間的這些電視台其實能夠自製節目的比例都還是不夠所以我想小公視除了我們是通路以外我們也扮演這個人才培育非常重要的角色我們希望可以持續來成長最後要跟董事長關心的是這個國人也都非常關心就是我們的台灣PLUS"},{"start":14006.707,"end":14023.825,"text":"台灣Plus我們關心兩點第一個這一個公廣媒體有沒有達到當初我們設立的宗旨我們設立的宗旨是什麼請教董事長將台灣帶入世界讓世界看見台灣這絕對是我們最核心的任務"},{"start":14024.705,"end":14048.412,"text":"對 我們的宗旨就是向世界宣揚台灣的聲音所以什麼是台灣的聲音呢這一點就很重要第二點大家關心的是你們營運的成效在監察院的報告裡面有提到這個台灣Plus的成效是逐漸在成長當中確實也看到成績那我們最關注的是這個到底是誰在看台灣Plus我們現在有幾成是來自於海外觀眾"},{"start":14051.097,"end":14065.4,"text":"台灣的觀眾海外的觀眾海外大概94%對94%是海外觀眾這就是我們要的我們希望世界聽見台灣的聲音那當然他說你現在集中47%在美國嘛那其他是亞洲等等"},{"start":14065.72,"end":14093.711,"text":"那台灣我看一下台灣的觀眾大家可能以為說台灣觀眾是不是最多結果其實不是台灣觀眾其實佔了6%排名是在第4的所以呢我們目前9成4這是好的成績但我們需要持續再往多元的這個市場去邁進第二點就是我們的國際合作國際合作第一個是通路第二個是內容嘛在通路上面例如說在現在其他國家的旅館啊旅館常常是外國人接受新聞的第一個這個這個管道嘛"},{"start":14094.571,"end":14117.098,"text":"我們在國外的這個旅館有沒有辦法看到台灣Plus的新聞我們第一個就是在美國的三星級以上的旅館大概有38萬間不過因為數量最近還在做一些變化那都可以看到台灣Plus三星以上的旅館我們已經有談了合作這個很好大城市要持續的持續的再去談更多的國家再來是OTT跟你的電視新聞"},{"start":14118.438,"end":14144.344,"text":"我們現在因為涉及到費用的問題如果要落地那必須要很大的費用所以我們盡量是跟那個低費用或者不需要費用現在我們有頻道有海外落地的國家包括哪些我跟您報告包括像在馬來西亞在印度還有在歐洲這個video elephant這個還有在美國我們透過像ott還有那個這些是已經談好的都已經在進行還有沒有其他國家在預計談"},{"start":14145.748,"end":14161.985,"text":"有沒有其他國家我們要持續洽談持續洽談剛剛講是已經完成這個很重要因為海外的通路這也是我們這麼辛苦製作的內容通路要出來再來就是內容的國際合作我們有沒有跟其他國家的媒體或是他們的這個公共媒體頻道來合作"},{"start":14163.735,"end":14180.315,"text":"有 目前像是在日本方面富士電視台 昭日電視台在今年都完成了跟我們合作IP節目在日本播出兩地共享韓國也有部分的製作單位也在跟我們合作像新加坡Media Corp也都跟我們合作了是 日本的也有嗎日本有兩家電視台跟我們合作"},{"start":14180.595,"end":14194.59,"text":"好 這個很重要那我們給予你們肯定但是監察院報告裡面同樣提到你們要去檢討的這個董事長我請你們務必一定要持續來關注包括你說這個主要決策者過去是缺乏的其實簡單說就是沒有總編輯"},{"start":14196.712,"end":14212.74,"text":"這個我們目前有沒有做改革了對 今年六月新的總編輯本國級的研究人已經徵聘新的總編輯新聞流程都改善而且重新調整過了好 這很重要你看你沒有總編輯所有的立委都想當你們總編輯這樣子更糟糕所以我們自己要有我們自己的決策這個當然很重要"},{"start":14213.16,"end":14235.203,"text":"再來我在這個你們四月的時候做了一個調查報告其實監察院報告也是依據你們這個你們以後調查了三個月然後幾度到這個新聞現場做了訪談我看是蠻深入的在調查報告第二頁裡面訪談過程當中內部成員被尋擊這個成立將近三年的媒體定位時仍有許多回答是不清楚或不確定"},{"start":14236.344,"end":14255.284,"text":"對於他們認為台灣plus應該如何定位答案也相當分歧我認這個問題是你們在做制度改革當中很重要要去完成的核心問題因為我們只有當我們的團隊大家都了解我們核心宗旨為何我們才能夠去找出屬於台灣的聲音"},{"start":14256.245,"end":14283.445,"text":"那你們在海外國外這些合作是把通路打開但是我們內容的產制務必要讓他能夠完成我們當時的宗旨請董事長持續加油可不可以做到我們現在已經開始進行各項改革而且已經有一些成效但我們未來一定會努力來達成這樣好那我們不是只有期許我們會持續來監督好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩奕委員官員請回座"},{"start":14285.118,"end":14308.136,"text":"現在請鄭天才委員質詢 時間4分鐘主席 貴委員 還有請文化部部長有請李部長鄭委員好"},{"start":14310.469,"end":14333.202,"text":"公共電視法第16條規定的很明確董事每屆任期三年董事任期屆滿前六個月前要改聘所以這個部分是非常明確的但是新的董事監察人到現在還沒有產生"},{"start":14334.482,"end":14363.393,"text":"什麼時候可以產生名單已經確定但是要等這個下一個我們確定那個審議委員會要開會的時候我們就會把名單公布然後我們會在開議前大概十天以上公布所以其實只要約好下一次開會時間我們就公布這個部長依法行政很重要這個最近都是在談法例不執行法例"},{"start":14364.885,"end":14381.692,"text":"立法院在114年3月4號就已經組成公視基金會董事監察人的審查會所以這個部分已經等了那麼久還請文化部這邊加油好不好"},{"start":14382.932,"end":14405.899,"text":"那這個第13條公共電視法第13條這個也規定顯認董事時應顧及族群之代表性族群之代表性所以過期以來一直都有這個原住民族的族群的一個董事這次務必還是要依法行政要有"},{"start":14407.379,"end":14425.009,"text":"這點我們一定會考慮因為它是一個非常具體的每個領域都要有包括性別那個專業還有族群我們會考慮沒問題好謝謝接下來雖然這個法不是你們的但是"},{"start":14426.615,"end":14453.043,"text":"這個有限廣播電視法是NCC的國家通訊傳播委員會的第45條規定第一項是系統經營者因每年按當年營業額1%之金額提繳至中央主管機關成立之特種基金也就是國家通訊傳播委員會成立的特種基金這個第二項的第一款"},{"start":14454.906,"end":14480.319,"text":"那做什麼使用呢 第一30%由中央主管機關統籌運用於有線廣播電視之普及發展這很重要 這種普及發展會影響最多的是哪裡呢就是我們偏遠的地區 原鄉各方面的一個有線電視的普及發展就會受到影響那經費不足的時候就受到影響"},{"start":14481.36,"end":14508.619,"text":"第二是40%拨付直辖县市政府从事有限广播电视包括偏乡地区的普及服务弱势族群收视费用之补助及有限广播电视的有关的文化及公共建设第三最重要今天跟你谈的跟部长要谈的就是30%监政财团法人公共电视文化事业基金会"},{"start":14510.851,"end":14538.109,"text":"这个30%按照第三项的规定前项第三款是停止实施日期由行政院定制本席质询过好几次我们的国家通讯传播委员会他都说要由文化部来决定什么时候停止"},{"start":14539.264,"end":14565.614,"text":"我們看這個法例啊105年的1月6號就公佈了公佈修正了105年現在已經10年了所以這個部分要請文化部事實上部長我之前就質詢過現在的行政院副院長他當時當文化部部長的時候我就質詢過"},{"start":14567.694,"end":14576.029,"text":"他說要積極的來辦理 到現在還沒有辦理所以這個部長什麼時候可以報行之宴"},{"start":14577.352,"end":14604.359,"text":"关于这个我觉得目前为止还没有要停的原因是刚刚我们前面讨论了很多就是有关公共电视预算它其实一直不够我们法定预算是9亿管电基金就是8千万自所管要3亿左右每次的理由都是这个了是的确是每次的理由的确是但是但是这个理由一直还存在部长但是我前面讲了那么多就是说"},{"start":14606.402,"end":14631.932,"text":"這個經費要提給公視公視你另外可以去籌經費然後這些經費要作為有線廣播電視的普及發展尤其是弱勢族群偏遠地區那個更重要所以這個部分部長這個不要為了那個七八千萬你看這個預算數碼上年度是八千一百多萬"},{"start":14635.28,"end":14657.811,"text":"從這個特種基金撥給這個公司今年115年度編的是七千八百多萬不要為了這個七八千萬去讓這個法律竟然可以從105年1月到現在明年就要十六年了十一年了所以這個部長"},{"start":14660.131,"end":14664.798,"text":"不要為了這個 但是我們平原地區更重要啊 好不好"},{"start":14667.697,"end":14691.582,"text":"不用回應了其實我們文化部做了很多文化平權所以你剛才講到偏遠地區你剛才講的是八千萬事實上在我們的文化部的預算裡面用在偏遠地區原住民各方面的錢是非常高的所以這一點我是非常認同部長我沒有要去減公視的經費你們要去協調主計總署"},{"start":14694.283,"end":14714.023,"text":"要去协调组织总署这个我们依法依法给国家通讯传播委员这个特种基金然后另外预算在拨嘛就是左手右手都是人民人大税检嘛好不好好谢谢好谢谢"},{"start":14714.704,"end":14719.827,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員 官員請回座現在請鄭會員委員質詢時間喔 對不起 戴會員委員時間4分鐘"},{"start":14732.567,"end":14754.694,"text":"我也累了我也累了謝謝謝謝主席那有請文化部部長還有就是我們的胡言輝董事長請李部長還有胡董事長賴委員好是部長那個部長你好我想今天針對了公共媒體的一個整合的議題還有就是台一台"},{"start":14755.354,"end":14772.743,"text":"就是在地的一個深耕這兩大議題跟部長跟董事長做一個請教尤其是在資訊時代這個資訊的一個爆炸然後假信息充斥的時候我們需要有一個更強大然後是公正有效率的一個公共媒體"},{"start":14773.863,"end":14798.73,"text":"那可以凝聚就是我們社會的一個共識那在我們投下這麼龐大的一個資訊的時候我們必須要確保就是說每一份這個納稅人的錢都可以發揮最好的一個公共效益不然或者這個跌床駕屋是非常可惜的那在公共媒體的一個系列裡頭我們發現到一個資源的一個分散"},{"start":14799.61,"end":14820.557,"text":"我們從宮市 華市 央市 央廣都在做新聞每一個人每天都在做新聞 都在做APP 都在做國際的影音這個資源上會不會真的是太分散所以是不是有裁併還是整併的一個計畫 請部長回答"},{"start":14823.533,"end":14833.833,"text":"其實他們各自有不同的任務跟內容做診病的話我想是不是請董事長講來跟您分析一下好 謝謝董事長"},{"start":14835.788,"end":14864.387,"text":"跟卫生说明一下的确在全世界民主国家里面他们多半有的有他的通讯社有他的广播电台有他的电视台有他的数位平台做不同的服务那我们现在是希望彼此之间可以有更多的合作所以我们最近有一个AI聊天机器人计划大家一起把资料的主权给建构起来那这个目的也是希望在不同的功能之中找到一个共同可以合作的地方"},{"start":14864.983,"end":14875.505,"text":"是 董事長我想這個對比國際台灣的公共媒體的數位競爭力顯然是我們還必須要是強化的那如果就是說"},{"start":14877.028,"end":14896.645,"text":"我們剛你特別提到了國外有一些成功的一個案例那我在這裡要特別跟你提醒就是說我們公管集團有設立了一個那個就是在那個工程部門那有一個數位電視新媒體的前瞻性的一個測試跟技術性的一個導入"},{"start":14898.067,"end":14913.166,"text":"這個領域我想聽聽看在這個領域裡頭你們有沒有特別的一個計畫可以整合出一個比較具有國際競爭力還是OTT的一個平台或是以音的一個平台有沒有這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":14915.787,"end":14941.068,"text":"謝謝委員您所關心的這個幾個平台的確在各國他們都是強有力像BBC的iPlayer那這個幾乎是BBC在英國非常重要的一個服務那NHK的One這個是剛剛才開始啟動那表示他們的速度其實比較慢那以台灣而言我們的這個公視Plus還有台灣Plus他們大半演不同的"},{"start":14941.968,"end":14957.479,"text":"一个是对国际一个是以台湾的观众为主我们相信经过一段时间之后彼此之间的功能跟目标应该是有机会可以大家找到一个比较合作的方式不过中间还是一个重要的概念像"},{"start":14958.3,"end":14973.489,"text":"BBC的iPlayer跟HK1他们都花了相当多的资源在做国内的整合所以这一点上也是要请委员能够谅解就是我们在作业上以我们现有的资源做到最大的能量大概是我目前要努力的目标"},{"start":14973.649,"end":14994.074,"text":"其實董事長還有我們的部長我覺得我們今天站在這個地方就是要求你們就是說在這個公共媒體的領域裡頭你們應該比照國際那國外做什麼樣的一個建設這個實在是相形為難因為台灣就是這些人台灣就是市場就是這麼大"},{"start":14995.114,"end":15019.975,"text":"那如果就是說這個兩千兩百萬的人口裡頭我們要一直讓你們就是在這種媒體的市場上做了很多的一個區分的話顯然其實這個好像就是我始終把台大醫學院添為第一志願可是我的分數就是只能上那個末端的那幾個學校可是我還是都是把第一志願台大醫學院添下去"},{"start":15021.775,"end":15047.244,"text":"這個真的是我自己今天站在這個地方問這些議題的時候我都有一點心虛當然還是要問還是要告訴你說你要認真念書你要認真的投入不過還是跟部長跟董事長加油跟文化部加油謝謝好謝謝賴慧媛委員部長歡迎請回座現在請林楚英委員質詢時間4分鐘"},{"start":15056.886,"end":15076.241,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請李遠部長以及我們公廣的董事長胡董事長請李部長跟胡董事長好 首先問一下部長部長您有身分證對吧有您身分證上面的照片是黑白還是彩色彩色吧"},{"start":15077.349,"end":15102.961,"text":"對 為什麼 您知道吧過去應該也有黑白照片的時代嘛但是因為這個身份證最重要的是身份認證嘛所以彩色一定會比黑白的照片來得容易識別對吧那麼其實這是個小事但是這個小事所引發的會不會是在現在公廣集團的管理上面的一個問題這一次客家電視台重新設計了他們的識別證但是呢去用黑白的照片"},{"start":15104.397,"end":15126.005,"text":"部長 識別證的作用是不是就是為了識別旁邊有公視的兩張識別證不好意思這個呂台長我把你的就拿出來了就是彩色照片是不是會比黑白照片來得容易識別識別證的作用是不是就是為了識別是吧"},{"start":15127.172,"end":15151.667,"text":"是 没问题对 所以本席当看到这个状况的时候曾经跟客家电视台有询问过但是他跟我说啊用黑白照片是为了凸显客家电视台的识别但是我个人是觉得这个钱要花在刀口上虽然钱不多经过我了解之后呢他们花了十万块找人来拍摄来发妆"},{"start":15152.688,"end":15179.916,"text":"但是我就覺得很奇怪如果你要化妝那為什麼要用黑白照片如果要黑白照片根本不用化妝了是吧我只是要強調就是說我們在公部門有時候用錢還是要稍微的思考一下像這樣子的一個狀態底下呢我個人我知道有一些同仁會認為說用黑白照片感覺上不太吉利但是我沒有這麼的迷信但我個人認為是識別證識別優先"},{"start":15182.057,"end":15195.95,"text":"再來是如果今天要創新要有創意的時候應該不要遮擋住原本的需求那麼我認為這樣的一個黑白照片其實是不符合識別證所以我會認為這筆錢的花費是有質疑的"},{"start":15199.273,"end":15212.366,"text":"這是我首先要先提出來的不知道部長有沒有注意到這個問題但部長您不用回答我只是希望在質詢台上讓您看到就是說官網集團就像剛剛講的非常的大那麼有的時候是不是在用錢的部分"},{"start":15214.468,"end":15242.241,"text":"要稍微的留意一下尤其是在這種現在我們其實都要用臉部來掃描的時候居然有一個黑白的狀況出現但是雖然我點了客家電視台這件事情但是我也必須要給客家電視台一個鼓勵就是他們製作的這個客家廚房確實達到了非常好宣傳客家以及宣傳我們台灣文化的一個部分不過它的第一季在台灣拍"},{"start":15243.001,"end":15267.398,"text":"第二季拉到了韓國首爾那麼我會必須強調喔其實他的最重要的工作跟最重要的部分是打造台灣形象更重要的是能夠導流回台灣讓韓國人能夠更喜歡來台灣觀光那麼截至目前為止來台灣的以2025年1到9月第一名還是日本"},{"start":15267.978,"end":15282.839,"text":"第二名是香港那麼第三名是韓國所以我想請問的是像當你把人拉到了首爾去的時候有沒有辦法可以有更導流的方式讓大家感受到這是台灣"},{"start":15284.301,"end":15304.381,"text":"然後大家會想到台灣來玩因為所有的旅遊節目坦白講我都是因為看到這個地方好玩所以我想來那麼在這個部分有沒有更實質更實際的在第二季當中因為我也必須講請韓星然後呢這樣的宣傳肯定是砸大錢我也同意就是第二季能夠上到"},{"start":15305.662,"end":15320.695,"text":"韓國的LTT平台是一件好事但是這個導流的部分有沒有跟觀光相關的包括觀光署來做其他更多的配合呢部長請這個客台的這個台長來報告向台長"},{"start":15323.257,"end":15349.613,"text":"委員好 謝謝委員首先我想要跟委員講到就是除了剛才委員有提到我們在11月28號以及在前天已經上了韓國CJ旗下的這個OTD平台TVing之外那透過他們在韓國因為同仁告訴我他們在韓國的市佔率可能有55%那我們就很期待如同委員的資訊顯示在去年其實來台的第三名也是韓國超過100萬"},{"start":15351.334,"end":15373.753,"text":"很多韓國的朋友來到台灣他會指名要吃我們的滷肉飯要吃我們的蚵仔煎要喝我們的珍珠奶茶因此在客家廚房這個節目當中我們就大量的使用每一集有兩到三道的客家菜一開始第一集我們先把所有台灣的食材包括我們的福菜包括我們來自桃園的韓粿直接運送到韓國去"},{"start":15374.674,"end":15403.113,"text":"那因此我们期待接下来这每年至少超过100万的韩籍游客在韩国看了客家厨房由丽特 由他们的校园或者喜饭韩国有160万人追踪的这个吃播的播客他的blogger看到他们的节目原来知道台湾不只有牛肉面不只有这个我们其他的卤肉饭这些小吃也知道他来台湾之后可以指名吃我们的面趴饭也就是我们的新谱的板条或者是喝我们的客家擂茶"},{"start":15403.933,"end":15430.947,"text":"這個內容的部分我想期待大家去看啦我其實要質詢的部分就是希望台長在這樣的一個資源花下去之後能夠跟觀光能夠做一個結合跟搭配不要只是節目播出去節目播出去有明星代言肯定有它的效果那主席站起來了我跟主席借最後的一分鐘為什麼請胡董事長在這裡是因為剛剛很多人都問到了台灣Plus這件事其實在場有許多都是我的媒體算前輩了"},{"start":15431.647,"end":15460.929,"text":"所以對於新聞的部分其實做新聞下筆下去一定就有立場所以我不針對台灣plus的新聞來做批評或者是質詢因為這個有時候看的人也有他自己的政治判斷但是就以客台現在來製作這個客家廚房來講台灣plus我們今天有特別寫到就是未來會製作所謂包括深度的紀錄片而且希望能夠把這個所謂台灣地緣政治或相關的部分加入喔"},{"start":15461.229,"end":15482.832,"text":"在這邊我提醒董事長就是像客家廚房這種類紀錄片式的實境節目其實台灣plus也可以做而且用英文的方式做可以讓更多人知道另外你一定知道有一部電影叫造山者他講的是台灣晶片的未來其實當我在看這部電影的時候我其實很想告訴您造山者其實才是台灣plus應該做的"},{"start":15483.393,"end":15508.595,"text":"而不是讓媒體人或者是影視者他們來做因為造山者我覺得唯一遺憾的就是他是用國語發音如果用英文發音可以讓更多人知道可是像這樣的內容我認為其實才是董事長跟底下台灣plus應該要處理的因為處理新聞很容易就會有爭議做紀錄片深度報導其實是比較不會被畫上政治立場"},{"start":15511.123,"end":15528.611,"text":"谢谢文的提醒我们在这方面的确认为是很重要的任务那目前也跟包括像新加坡的MediaCorp等等在做这方面的合作那之前我们也做了台湾的半导体的这个纪录片那的确获得非常大的国际回响相信这块我们要继续努力"},{"start":15529.111,"end":15553.959,"text":"那那個合作的美光的這個紀錄片包括像現在如果有許多的包括像黃仁勳他們要來這些紀錄的過程我都認為是台灣PLUS其實必須要提供的因為這個是一般的電視台可能沒有能力去做追蹤但是我自己認為台灣PLUS就是一個很好去找題材把吳道友整個整建的過程中我覺得這個任務我也希望台灣PLUS把它放在心裡謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":15558.332,"end":15585.488,"text":"謝謝林楚英委員官員請回座現在請黃國昌委員質詢黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在請林月琴委員質詢主席麻煩文化部部長有請文化部部長"},{"start":15590.624,"end":15607.666,"text":"林委員你好部長午安很久沒有質詢文化部了我想先問文化部110年起辦理的發展國際數位傳播計畫當中花了數十億催生的台灣Plus設立的目的跟宗旨為何"},{"start":15608.72,"end":15620.305,"text":"我想丹书会要这个频道就是希望能够透过这个频道把台湾的所有的资讯让国外的人听到所以他用全英语发音"},{"start":15621.334,"end":15643.048,"text":"我想也是 為什麼我會這樣問因為根據Templus的官網所說他們是台灣一個專為國際觀眾提供英語節目的一個平台只在向全球展示台灣的多元面貌可是我們先來看關於Templus的新聞從主管不斷地更換到"},{"start":15644.769,"end":15664.697,"text":"離職主管的放話甚至到監察院的調查報告都一再顯示內部管理的問題始終都是沒有解決監察院調查報告甚至直接指出說川普拉斯的決策過程呈現方式完全沒有展現台灣的特色請問文化部你們覺得台灣的特色是什麼是台灣腔調的英語是嗎我沒有懂他那個監察院報告裡台灣特色什麼意思"},{"start":15672.83,"end":15690.252,"text":"是他報告的講說他講是說沒有展現台灣特色報告的內容沒有台灣特色因為台灣特色這四個字很籠統是那我們就先來細看監察院的報告裡面提到非常多讓我覺得驚訝的問題首先"},{"start":15690.932,"end":15702.949,"text":"就是竟然有主管因為台灣人有台灣腔調的英語而拒絕台灣人上主播台播報那這是什麼理由啊這公平嗎 文化部這個我想請這個執行長來報告"},{"start":15706.004,"end":15735.343,"text":"各位委員好各位委員報告這其實是因為本國籍的同仁在播報的時候那當然我們需要經過一點訓練我們當然還是用台灣本身自己的英語發音來表述但是在口條訓練上面是應該要經過一點練習會比較好這是我們原先的一個期望可是平台內部如果對播報人員安排如果有不合理的情形譬如說甚至有職場霸凌目前沒有跟歧視的話可是根據現在調查來看現在播報人員也有英美"},{"start":15736.001,"end":15757.587,"text":"硬 扭那为何特别排斥台湾口音有很多本国籍的同仁我觉得如果有台湾口音就不行吗口音有时候也是地方的一个特色而不是因为成为能不能播报的一个原因所在再来就是请问文化部你们觉得台湾的文化特色谁最了解是外国人还是台湾人"},{"start":15758.463,"end":15787.943,"text":"台湾人所以应该没有人比自己更了解自己吧结果却由外籍主管主导编采人员在新闻选题跟处理方式并不是说外籍主管不好但是他们对台湾社会脉络掌握是有限没有办法以台湾的观点来出发如果决策权都集中在外籍主管身上是不是就会让编采失衡偏离社利的媒体的初衷目前解决了吗"},{"start":15789.184,"end":15806.365,"text":"已經解決了因為這是一個最早成立這個時候因為要大量需要一些講英語的這種播報員所以剛開始是一個過渡時期現在您剛才講這些問題隨著由台灣的記者跟主播增加我想逐漸解決這個問題"},{"start":15808.207,"end":15828.838,"text":"我要特別強調我不是反對外籍的一個主管而是既然這是屬於台灣人的頻道因為我們要把台灣推廣出去 走出去就應該要有台灣人的意志在制度的設計 人員的編排跟決策過程都應該要存在台灣人的聲音而不是換了台灣衣服的外國頻道連台灣腔調的英文都沒有辦法出聲"},{"start":15830.058,"end":15855.332,"text":"那最後想問的是我過去曾經質詢過我們台灣兒少原生節目比例偏低的問題而文化部也編列預算推動了黑潮文化計畫欲提升台灣的兒少影視內容的一個自製量能也催生了小公視我覺得這非常好專屬兒少節目也希望打造台灣版的寶可夢可是邁向過"},{"start":15856.913,"end":15880.561,"text":"可是过了一年了我想问文化部我们的宝可梦出现了吗那个宝可梦有没有出现我不太确定但是我们的在有限的预算里面已经做了很多的儿少节目我们真的有让孩子喜欢愿意主动收看的代表性作品吗这点我是不是请儿少来请我们的"},{"start":15882.241,"end":15896.387,"text":"好的 謝謝委員我們其實今年也是持續除了去年一開台有24檔新制節目今年有32檔那其中動畫的部分因為動畫製作真的比較花時間所以其實今年下半年已經有兩檔動畫上映了"},{"start":15896.747,"end":15916.156,"text":"那其中我是陳派派我覺得他的這個成績相當不錯那另外我們的口袋小子就是小兒童開台的口袋小子我們其實也在做多元的規劃包括短的影音動畫以及後面他的一些唱跳的影音我們後面都有持續的規劃當然希望有遊戲公司跟我們一起合作來開發台灣的寶可夢"},{"start":15920.646,"end":15947.266,"text":"還是要問文化部真的掌握到兒少真正想要的是什麼我也肯定文化部這一年確實有提升兒少的節目的自製率可是我更關心的到底有沒有去掌握孩子的收視行為跟喜好沒有掌握的話你很難對應為什麼現在的兒少的收視環境已經跟過去完全不太一樣了不只是電視他們可能是在小公司NetflixYouTube"},{"start":15947.739,"end":15973.781,"text":"手機平板都有可能收看內容所以期待你們就是我比較想知道說到底他們平常有沒有去調你們有沒有去調查說到底我們兒少觀看的節目類型是什麼哪些內容孩子比較喜歡收視跟點閱率的變化跟趨勢我們的族群差異文化部是不是有掌握那黑潮計畫跟小公視現階段的成果到底有沒有真正被兒少接受剛剛我想總經理都有講可是"},{"start":15974.702,"end":16001.278,"text":"到底接受度是什麼所以請官部一個月內提供我完整的資料來給我可以嗎 可以 沒問題那我也想問目前我們的黑草計畫在執行可是我想問是目前有哪些節目是有兒少親自參與編劇因為既然是他們要看的我們講兒少參與前非常重要那有沒有兒少參與有關於這點我是不是也請總經理來回答"},{"start":16003.797,"end":16020.648,"text":"其实目前儿少参与编剧的我们只有就节目的讨论的时候可不可以邀因为我们现在政府部门的所有很多会议都会邀请他们来共同参与来才知道说他们想要什么需要什么或想看什么"},{"start":16020.828,"end":16050.548,"text":"我们现在是在我们的儿影的评审有儿童评审我们是先做到这个其实很多的制作的部分我们现在也会希望邀请儿少来一起参与所以我要求文化部儿少节目的政策要制度化去纳入到儿少的意见要从孩子的视角来看儿少回馈也应该成为你政策调整的一个依据黑潮计划成果除了拍了多少之外更要回答孩子看不看喜不喜欢看"},{"start":16051.648,"end":16076.274,"text":"再麻煩把相關資料給我們辦公室謝謝部長謝謝林月琴委員部長們請回座請王紅薇委員質詢謝謝主席我請文化部理部長以及中央社"},{"start":16080.558,"end":16110.141,"text":"胡婉玲社長社長好有請李部長董事長沒有來是不是中央社董事長沒有來好那就請社長王委員你好好部長好中央社社長我想中央社這幾年經營得很辛苦我們每一年大概會虧損多少中央社"},{"start":16111.348,"end":16111.892,"text":"上山來 上山來"},{"start":16114.56,"end":16139.648,"text":"前年虧損了一千多萬去年也虧損一千多萬今年還是一千多萬都會虧損一千多萬現在有想辦法遵節開支對不對有 我們真的積極落實但今年虧得更大今天虧很多好 所以我看到你們的報告裡面怎麼樣因應你們持續的節省各樣的開支說大概280萬元280萬元"},{"start":16142.589,"end":16156.1,"text":"很辛苦的東省西省連社長的坐車連特約記者司機統統解約了好那請問一下9月份中央社徵求駐芬蘭的特約記者"},{"start":16158.121,"end":16180.952,"text":"特約記者所以很多人都認為這是不是幫林昶佐大使來量身定做那我們董事長接受網路媒體說為什麼要變成特約記者呢是為什麼在芬蘭徵求特約記者呢是因為立法院刪預算請問一下社長是因為立法院刪預算所以我們要在芬蘭來徵求特約記者嗎"},{"start":16186.215,"end":16202.567,"text":"应该这样讲我们在半岛上面我们在瑞典有特约但是每当芬兰有事情的时候之前芬兰有没有任何的派驻记者之前芬兰有没有我们的特派记者"},{"start":16203.367,"end":16224.782,"text":"芬蘭過去沒有 完全沒有 對不對所以你們董事長在外面胡說八道說是因為我們刪預算所以把它改成特約記者如果你原來有特派記者然後因為預算被刪除然後改成特約記者才合理你現在是新增的芬蘭的特約記者"},{"start":16226.423,"end":16249.282,"text":"好 请问一下那增加芬兰的特别记者一年要多好支出增加多少支出案件记仇所以他写的多有新闻就写没有新闻呢这个人回归他平常的日常生活其实我们有注意到有关于林长佐大使的新闻其实很多都是由你们驻瑞典的记者在发的其实很多"},{"start":16250.163,"end":16277.55,"text":"那所以也就是說其實原來有入瑞典記者他本來就可以cover整個的北歐的相關的一些訊息而你們要在九月份在你們虧損累累每一年都在虧損之下然後特別去徵求芬蘭特約記者難免被外界認為這是有政治性的考量這是為了林昶佐的量身定做我要特別講"},{"start":16278.45,"end":16306.148,"text":"让我们支持中央社的预算我自己身为媒体人我愿意支持但是如果你们在这么拮据的状况之下仍然是用这样的一个政治性的考量来安排这个对外的特派记者或特约记者我觉得这就不是一个新闻的本业好 时间暂停一下请社长请回我请一下我们的公事董事长跟我们台湾Plus的执行长"},{"start":16310.634,"end":16310.86,"text":"委員好"},{"start":16312.489,"end":16341.24,"text":"董事長執行長我請教一個問題10月9號我們針對台灣plus針對12強的紀錄片這個紀錄片根據你們所給我們的資料他的經費是120萬元但是詭異的事情是10月9號上架之後12強的紀錄片我相信很多人都期待10月9號上架之後消失"},{"start":16342.54,"end":16361.465,"text":"两个多月了消失了两个月到现在原因不明请问一下为什么一个耗资120万的纪录片上架之后不明不埋的消失请问一下原因是什么你们有做什么处理有没有其他有里面有没有人员有疏失"},{"start":16362.486,"end":16378.336,"text":"跟委員報告這件事情因為我們委託的廠商他在取得授權的時候其中都是跟台灣我們中華棒協取得授權但其中有一小段是愛爾達的畫面愛爾達不給你們不是不給我們是因為是委託廠商去辦那他漏了那個授權我們請他補正"},{"start":16379.176,"end":16396.793,"text":"那這個一來一往的時候我們為了慎重先把影片下架經過中華棒協還有WSBESC就是世界棒壘協會同意了以後我們在11月28號晚間已經重新在頻道播出那現在因為線上播出正在安排檔期會再回覆到檔會再回覆會"},{"start":16397.634,"end":16427.354,"text":"好 那这段时间有没有人员需要做检讨或者是需要这个惩处是 我们两个方向一个是厂商因为在验收的时候有一些验收上的瑕疵我们会跟厂商求偿那另外一个就是我们内部人员检讨检讨将来在验收还有在版权作业上应该要更为谨慎作为一个案例我觉得你们应该提早跟外界说明因为这个理由其实之前你们没有对外界很详细的说明都是外界猜测是应该跟版权有关系"},{"start":16427.994,"end":16454.243,"text":"大家认为台湾Plus作为一个国家经营的一个影音频道不应该有版权侵权的问题然后一个十二强的纪录片大家这么期待然后上架之后就这样把它下架下架好久然后也没有一个很清楚的说明这是台湾Plus其实我觉得台湾Plus有很多问题但是因为我时间到了主席也站起来了那有关于监察院所"},{"start":16455.083,"end":16469.805,"text":"提出来的一些检讨我觉得你们应该要有一些书面书面的里面比如说刚才林苑琪委员特别问到的他讲的一个是纽西兰的顾问从来没来过台湾但是他每天来负责选稿"},{"start":16470.605,"end":16489.145,"text":"我觉得这些监察院所提出来的相关的问题你们应该提出书面的检讨报告给文化部刚才部长就还说我也看不懂监察院在讲什么这不是很离谱吗我们都有报给董事会已经报告文化部这边来那部长都没看"},{"start":16490.466,"end":16510.275,"text":"這代表部長沒有看剛剛林業群委員問然後部長好像都在狀況外說搞不清楚監察院在講什麼所以這個部分也請拜託可以提供給我們委員來瞭解就是你們有哪些有真的有解討跟改進好不好好謝謝好謝謝王宏威委員那官員請回座謝謝委員"},{"start":16513.735,"end":16532.729,"text":"今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另外有林沛翔 林月琴 翁曉琳委員提出書面質詢關於今天的會議做如下的決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提的書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊載公報"},{"start":16535.211,"end":16556.387,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速地以書面答覆好 那喔 對不起好 其實還有一件事情剛剛我沒有完全把一個工作做完就是徐欣穎委員"},{"start":16557.99,"end":16576.443,"text":"徐欣盈委員 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應應政府職能扣章 修正本法第七條祝賦損計長兩人 祝三人 且其中一人列政務組本部損而監督政府預算收租"},{"start":1754.764,"end":1759.788,"text":"經由從85年度的11兆億元至114年度以增長至27兆億元 損盡業務業期繁重且110年間因應世衛發展難潮 徵收第六廳資訊處等專責世衛損盡"},{"start":1778.417,"end":1792.643,"text":"單位後已有政治副審計長的需求 又現有中央二級機關十八個部會中僅本部副所長均為常務組 未列有正務組 均參照相關機關組織體制已有規定 並考量審計業務特性 維持現有常務"},{"start":1799.446,"end":1822.676,"text":"負損季漲一至兩年內增至負損季漲易卵且劣正物質以相致破壞重要損季政策環境二 應應損季業務需求 擬修正本法第十條增至損季執行查核的損季人力本部前處增加法定編制原流 距今已逾十五年"},{"start":1823.416,"end":1826.438,"text":"且自112年起聚焦攸關國際民生之跨域施政議題須有損盡實務經驗豐富之損盡負責規劃與執行難限時編制言語以難應應實際需要"},{"start":1839.847,"end":1857.941,"text":"原依求增助損棄人力以建立有效的人才培育以升遷系統並創造留下留任優秀損棄人員之有利環境為其相關植物類等平衡你修進本法第14條本部所指損棄處損棄官兼處長植物檢測第12指等"},{"start":1863.726,"end":1872.029,"text":"本部首組中央三職機關 審計處 審計官兼處長列檢任第12職等為現行中央三職機關的首長職務及職轄室一級機關首長大多列檢任第13職等故相較之下 審計處 審計官兼處長之列等已施平衡研修正調整其"},{"start":1890.021,"end":1913.829,"text":"列等至檢任第十三指等 以其平衡並合理反映其負責程度本法處處修正 續會配合政府主任的擴張以實務需要以更新加強推動各項審計業務敬請各位委員鼎力支持 早入審議通過完成修法程序 以上報告僅請主席 各位委員 女士先生主教 謝謝"},{"start":1918.311,"end":1926.697,"text":"好 謝謝陳瑞民審計長那我們接下來是不是請權敘部法規司王司長"},{"start":1933.57,"end":1950.457,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早今天聯席會議審查審計部組織法第七條 第十條及第十四條條文修正草案一案邀請全系部列席請就其修正條文涉及官制官規事項說明如下"},{"start":1951.357,"end":1964.985,"text":"依第七條條文依憲法規定審計部自審計長由總統提名經大案行使同意前至於本案適用偵緝政務副審計長本部尊重大案決議"},{"start":1966.656,"end":1992.139,"text":"二 例十條條文依照各機關職稱及官等職等言而配置準則第九條第一項第五款規定中央二級三級機關配置於一級二級單位主管兼之檢任會主管職稱其配置言而數不得高於二級單位主管職稱言而設置數之十分之七也就是百分之七十Percent"},{"start":1993.004,"end":2011.624,"text":"其訂定理由是審酌中央二三級機關檢任會主管執政主要是配置於一級二級單位主管間屬合搞性質就職務身兼關係職務結構合理性及其職責程度以維持以二級單位主管間"},{"start":2012.785,"end":2033.704,"text":"合理之延而配置比例又行政院暨首署以及行政院以外機關已經準用中央行政機關組織準則修正組織法規並訂定編制表則經依商開配置準則規定辦理審計部因各職稱之官職等及延而定義組織法"},{"start":2036.465,"end":2060.027,"text":"配置準則相關規定現行檢任徽主管比例已達84%本次修編再增加檢任徽主管職務29人檢任徽主管比例提高至150%省著與中央二級各機關檢任徽主管職務配置之同平性嚴建議調降檢任徽主管顏額數"},{"start":2061.792,"end":2073.57,"text":"三 第十四條條文明定審計處自處長由審計官兼任責務列檢任第十二指等至第十三指等一節"},{"start":2075.261,"end":2099.297,"text":"審計部所屬中央三級審計處如住專任處長列檢任第十二職等至第十三職等以中央三級機關所長及直轄市政府一級機關所長列等上屬洪平為現行各機關有兼任主管情形者經以其本職之列等辦理職務規矩及情緒審定"},{"start":2101.772,"end":2113.124,"text":"本案在組織法上明定審計官兼任處長職務列檢任第十二職等至第十三職等未符以本職等"},{"start":2115.934,"end":2131.987,"text":"訂列之原則且與中央二級機關一級單位主管前夕審定之官職類等有聲同評原建議將各審計處處長改為專任職務已無官制官規而且以行修正審計部"},{"start":2133.368,"end":2161.742,"text":"整計處是組織通則相關規定這方式較屬妥適至於是定定在上級機關組織法尊重大案決議又如果考量改為專任職務將會增加額額可配合相應減少審計官的一個額額以上報告敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝王市長那我們接下來請行政院人事行政總處廖政文專委"},{"start":2171.067,"end":2194.808,"text":"主席各位委員還有先生女士大家早有關貴委員會審查監察院理據的審計部組織法第七條第十條第十四條修正草案本總處奉要列席深感榮幸請就本總處業務提出下列意見第一個中央機關組織基準法第八條第一項規定機關組織以法律定制者其內部單位之分工職長以處務規程定制"},{"start":2195.709,"end":2220.768,"text":"而機關組織除以法律定期、職稱、官等職等員額外應依公務人員任用法第六條、總員員任務法第六條訂定編制表並含送考試員核備基準法第十九條第二項規定二級機關得涉副首長一至三人其中一人應列常任職務其餘列正務職務第三十八條規定本法於行政院以外至中央機關准用時"},{"start":2222.406,"end":2245.906,"text":"那行政機關以外之機關依前開規定為準用機關依法務部的見解相關的規定審計部如審酌其機關性質之特殊性未能全部適用亦得續名理由考量監察院考試院行政院體系相近且設有部會組織型態之附屬機關現行考試院及所屬機關均以準用基準法制定組織法的規範"},{"start":2248.519,"end":2263.805,"text":"此次省紀部組織法修正條文也說明參考基準法第19條第二項及第38條規定政治副省紀長是以省紀部如有特殊考量應准用基準法全部條文內部單位之主涉"},{"start":2264.565,"end":2290.192,"text":"及執掌分別以初規程及編制表定之修正條文第7條亦可評估組織法相關規定訂定又憲法的第104條審計長是由總統提名經大院同意任命之其任命程序與一般行政機關所長不同如果有審計部有特殊考量亦得在前開函式予以說明第二個部分是有關於第10條的部分"},{"start":2291.152,"end":2320.352,"text":"增至建任第八職等第九職等職務42人其中得列檢任人數為29人這個部分因為與行政院與考試院之職務配置的部分與配置準則有所不同所以建請評估調整之必要性合理性及恆平性第三個部分是第14條名列審計處處長之職等與上開配置準則部分是考試院全管部分"},{"start":2321.573,"end":2324.44,"text":"是否同意監察院索擬尊重大院決議 以上"},{"start":2329.741,"end":2355.275,"text":"好謝謝我們機關代表報告完畢相關的書面內容我們請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄那提案說明跟報告都已進行完畢我們現在來進行許答本聯席會的委員時間尋答是6分鐘那非本聯席會委員尋答時間為3分鐘我們就都不再延長了因為還有"},{"start":2356.736,"end":2366.923,"text":"在審議的問題那我們上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請第一位登記發言的委員黃國昌委員謝謝主席 麻煩有請沈記長請沈記長"},{"start":2381.223,"end":2406.256,"text":"委員好審計長好審計部很辛苦同仁很認真這個我都知道因此這一次提出有關於審計部的組織法希望能夠提根關等讓你們審計部的同仁不會被其他機關挖走上面的路會比較順一點基本上面的方向我是覺得值得討論不過"},{"start":2408.612,"end":2435.506,"text":"我要說的是你今天也看得到考試院選舉部跟人事總署對你們提出來的修法意見很多書面報告我就出來了那是不是審計部不得人緣得罪太多人有關係我不要去揣測但考試院看了也不爽行政院看了也不爽你要通過這個修法審計長要多努力"},{"start":2436.977,"end":2460.994,"text":"我只有對一個政務副審計長我在這邊公開表達反對審計長是立法院行使同意權通過的法務部部長是卓榮泰愛找誰就找誰副審計長跟一般的次長是沒有辦法相比擬的"},{"start":2462.302,"end":2491.152,"text":"為什麼 因為審計長是立法院通過部長隨時可以換 次長酬庸的一堆啦我們現在看各個部會 次長酬庸的一堆啊看了就知道 你現在偵涉一個政務的副審計長你不怕人家空降來監軍啊叫你審計部乖一點啊審計報告不要亂寫啊不要一天到晚指出行政機關的缺失啊你不擔心這件事嗎"},{"start":2493.615,"end":2514.566,"text":"立法院沒有通過欸塞一個政務副審計長給你欸一天到晚在你旁邊看著啊叫你們寫審計報告要小心一點你都不會擔心喔一點政治敏感度都沒有啊口口阿祖 口口阿祖一點政治敏感度都沒有啊 審計長我為什麼跟你說政治敏感度很重要"},{"start":2516.516,"end":2543.901,"text":"我支持你們審計部做的專業審查報告但問題是什麼你知不知道你們審計部的報告被賴政府當空氣你知不知道 審計長你知道嗎一般我們如果有審查意見我們會追蹤 會追蹤好來來來 我直接帶你看我講話向來有憑有據監察院彈劾審計部認定超思雞蛋的弊案"},{"start":2545.043,"end":2550.504,"text":"農業部前市長浪費公帑5億2997萬監察院彈劾了 審計部也認定我後面 審計部下面的報告文字我都列出來了損失費用高達5億2997萬卻有疏失這審計部的報告沒有錯吧我上次問農業部部長"},{"start":2575.064,"end":2601.267,"text":"陳俊濟很傲慢啊說你們寫這個東西根本沒依據啊審計部有沒有什麼要說的直接開槍回去給你們啊你們審計部寫那什麼東西啊農業部部長就直接講啦沒有依據啦你被人家看死了啦你審計了又怎麼樣賴政府把你當空氣啊"},{"start":2603.188,"end":2630.993,"text":"審計部說浪費了五億多農業部部長回嗆審計部沒有依據啊支持你們有什麼用支持你們沒有用啊我給你再多的元額再高的關等我甚至給你多一個常務副審計長審計人員很辛苦在查帳帳查出來納稅人損失五億多"},{"start":2633.767,"end":2656.666,"text":"寫出來又怎麼樣行政部門當空氣啊沈記長你看到農業部部長這樣回嗆你心不會痛喔你要不要幫沈記部的同仁說幾句話還是農業部部長賴清德的愛將摸摸鼻子算了沈記部不敢講話沈記長"},{"start":2661.238,"end":2688.94,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個案子我們對這個案子我們查到了以後我們就把它收回了兩億七千多萬移送監察院監察院也彈劾了相關人員也糾正了農業部這個部分你糾正他他說你講的沒有特別依據"},{"start":2690.285,"end":2697.25,"text":"這個因為監察這個他在這裡打刑我不知用意不知怎樣但是這兩億多將近三億我們都還沒給他核銷第二個沒有核銷那錢要怎麼辦我們會逐步追蹤他這一些錢到底因為這個法官一判其中有六千多萬是有問題的那這個我們會邀請收回"},{"start":2718.403,"end":2744.444,"text":"你說你沒有給他核銷嘛那我就跟你講你為什麼被人家當空氣上一次就業安定基金被人家拿去開演唱會拍沙龍照勞動部挪用就業安定基金要給勞工的錢花了幾千萬拿去胡搞瞎搞你審計部也做報告出來了"},{"start":2746.734,"end":2771.864,"text":"結果勞動部解決的方式是什麼審計長你知不知道他解決的方式是說錢我也沒有要追回來我再從公務預算編預算去填回去就好了浪費納稅的錢喔審計部寫出來囉我一直追勞動部部長錢什麼時候要回來給皮皮啦"},{"start":2773.305,"end":2799.29,"text":"第一次 尋答的時候洪森漢說我們一定會去追後來呢 沒笑沒信不敢去追解決的方法是什麼我們再拿納稅的錢編公務預算然後編回去就業安定基金所以我就說嘛 你做了有什麼用你被人家當空氣啊被人家當笑話啊"},{"start":2801.377,"end":2828.232,"text":"啊你如果這樣子 審計部還不硬起來我再說一次啊我今天在這邊質詢 我心很痛我是在幫審計部講話審計部專業的審計人員查帳 查了一堆出來然後呢上一次人事同意權的時候我們八票都支持你我們台灣民眾黨的支持者每個都說讚"},{"start":2830.441,"end":2855.717,"text":"就事論事 提好的人選 我們就同意因為你們有做事嘛謝謝但問題是什麼 做了事以後被行政院當空氣 被賴政府當空氣這個不會 因為這兩個 這剛剛講的兩個案啦第一個我們都有移送檢調第二個我們都有移送檢查案第三個我們都有做財務收支處理我直接跟沈記長講啦 我叫農業部啊"},{"start":2858.447,"end":2886.321,"text":"去跟那個被彈劾的張經緯求償啊結果農業部部長就不肯啊他撐著啊怎麼可以跟他求償跟他求償到時候把所有的事情抖出來那還得了喔千年甚廣啊這麼多錢他一個人吃得下來喔來第二個案子就業安定基金剛剛我就講了啦你們就業安定基金再回去重新看一下真的被人家當空氣啊"},{"start":2887.574,"end":2909.534,"text":"你們被當空氣我老實講還是小事啊納稅的錢被這樣胡搞瞎搞才是大事啊來花蓮艷澀湖溢流期間環境部主責的官員跟廠商出訪歐洲考察這個案子有沒有查這案子目前沒有去查我今天直接跟沈記長檢舉他拿錢"},{"start":2913.556,"end":2942.132,"text":"說要去歐洲考察結果發生了什麼事情發生了這一筆錢從哪裡支的我預算書找不到結果呢結果用假的派員出國計畫編預算要派員出國沒有派員出國啊沒有派公務員出國啊錢拿來什麼挪用挪用什麼挪用署長帶廠商出去玩可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":2943.595,"end":2956.419,"text":"可以這樣幹嗎 沈記長這個我們要查了以後做一個向委員報告好 我順便再跟你講更離譜的事情是什麼陪他出去玩的廠商在他任內拿到的標案金額高達快三千萬不必嫌到這種程度"},{"start":2969.997,"end":2999.392,"text":"我這樣說你聽到沒有知道我是署長啊在我任內這個廠商啊我用限制性招標標案金額拿了三千萬什麼是限制性招標沈記長應該很熟嘛知道要篩選過的啦我認可的啦你才能來投啦給他三千萬的限制性招標挪用公務預算要派員出國的錢署長自己跑去歐洲玩還帶他一起去"},{"start":3001.124,"end":3019.592,"text":"臭不可聞啊沈區長 是承不承諾徹查到底徹查 需要多久一個月內好 一個月內 我等你一個月喔我等你一個月喔那我希望啦不要一個月出來了以後你的報告又被人家當空氣我們都會追蹤好 OK好 謝謝黃國昌委員詢答接下來請李彥秀委員詢答"},{"start":3035.063,"end":3039.947,"text":"謝謝主席我可不可以請主席長沈記長請沈記長沈記長剛剛聽完我們黃主席的質詢你看可見我們大家在野黨也好都對你有很多的期待因為監察院該發揮的功能沒辦法發揮我先做一下我的結論因為今天時間並不長我今天會有附帶的修正的動議"},{"start":3059.721,"end":3080.89,"text":"對於現在全國的審計人員我們現在主計人員總共全國有12,388人從中央到地方但是相對的我們審計單位只有757人我們現在事權很多而且還跟著我們現在符合國際的潮流包括國防的預算 科技的預算AI的問題我覺得審計單位應該要有足夠的人力"},{"start":3084.531,"end":3098.118,"text":"去處理我們之前我們有增加一個廳還有增加一個處是不是去年110等於一個人我們增加一個廳一個處但是我們變成身兼數職我們人力沒有增加我覺得整個組織架構上是有問題的"},{"start":3101.52,"end":3119.53,"text":"所以我今天的修正動議希望各政黨都可以支持第一個你的人力絕對要擴編第二個就是我覺得那個人力相對的要發揮足夠的功能那我回過頭來講就是說當然憲法明文規定我們的審計權是很重要監察權"},{"start":3120.51,"end":3137.44,"text":"所以審計權的公正超然很重要這也就是為什麼在疫情期間你們會發現疫苗的問題所以你們的公正超然讓國人對於我們台灣的審計單位事實上是我覺得是可以認同是值得信賴的"},{"start":3138.36,"end":3157.117,"text":"這也就是為什麼我們在立法院行使同意權的時候在野黨無論是民眾黨 國民黨大家都蓋票同意支持你那當然對於審計單位應該保持幾個大的原則包括成績要夠高你不能在行政院底下那個就成績差太多"},{"start":3158.017,"end":3178.224,"text":"包括保障審計長足夠的任期 獨立性包括你們財務也必須有獨立自決於我們現在的相關的行政體系的規範之外我覺得這些到目前都有看到但是我看到你這一次在組織架構裡面特別提到希望副審計長"},{"start":3180.117,"end":3204.878,"text":"要有政務的身份那我就要請問沈記長有政務的身份這個是行政院所派下來的政務的身份你如何不去受到政務機關的影響我不是只有講現在因為大家都有機會可以執政但是一個審計單位他是應該獨立於行政機關之外"},{"start":3205.939,"end":3226.432,"text":"政務制的副審計長我們就會覺得是行政單位派在這個審計單位底下來去做督軍你如何讓國人認為你有辦法保持審計的獨立性跟客觀性我是從組織架構來跟你討論這個問題審計長你了解我的意思嗎知道一個政務官在你底下"},{"start":3233.792,"end":3243.763,"text":"行政機關其他單位不管是國防部哪些單位環境部 勞動部在下面督軍你底下有那麼多審計人在下面督軍"},{"start":3245.287,"end":3262.825,"text":"你如何未來去保證你的客觀性跟獨立性這個是在我們談組織架構我現在不去管人選我不去談未來你們心裡想的人選或者行政院想派誰我不管但是從組織架構來看我個人認為這就是有問題的"},{"start":3264.186,"end":3292.045,"text":"這是我要談的就是說我認為要增加兩個或三個副審計長我都沒有意見大家有共識就好因為我覺得我們審計單位非常的重要人力擴編我也全力支持但是政務制的副審計長我覺得未來如何保持他的超然客觀性跟獨立性還不至於審計長你在位因為這個組織架構一通過之後它就是永久性的"},{"start":3292.845,"end":3309.954,"text":"所以我覺得站在行政院站在立法院的立場我覺得這件事情我必須要跟您說明我個人的看法跟意見那未來如何促進公共效能包括課則制度我覺得都會被一位"},{"start":3311.027,"end":3334.349,"text":"政務的副審計長抹殺我覺得立法會會有很多不同的聲音跟看法這個是我的意見那另外另外包括我剛剛已經談過了包括調整組織編制預算的增加這些我覺得我們都可以支持那另外我就要談最後一個我是不是可以請人事行政總處的專委"},{"start":3342.732,"end":3360.896,"text":"謝謝委員實際上您可以先請坐一下專委我一直在跟卓院長提到我們現在全國的公有技工我們最高的新點是170個新點那專業加給之後18610塊之後每個月最多領38000多一點點公有是他的新點是150個新點那領完專業專業加給之後他最多也領三萬三萬五"},{"start":3371.738,"end":3398.894,"text":"一個是三萬 技工是三萬八工友是三萬五我們都非常清楚無論新點是一百五或一百七十個新點我當進來公務機關我當環保局的同仁我當地方工登處的同仁我二十八歲進來我做了五年之後我可能都已經到達這個新點的點數三萬八到三萬五我做到六十五歲我退休我還是領三萬八到三萬五你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":3401.229,"end":3416.798,"text":"莊惠你個人覺得合理嗎你一進這個職位之後到你退休如果領同樣一個薪水你覺得合理嗎你個人覺得合理嗎所以我的時間已經到了所以我覺得這個新年的制度我覺得有必要要再去做調整"},{"start":3417.498,"end":3439.029,"text":"我覺得這些公務人員都是國家前進的行政效率的原動力非常非常的重要那我覺得現在已經到達這個薪資的據點應該要包括薪資的結構據點我覺得應該要好好的去做調整所以以上是我今天重點兩個質詢包括在組織架構包括在公有技工的新點我希望你帶回去好好討論好 謝謝李燕秀委員接下來請吳宗憲委員詢問"},{"start":3454.987,"end":3455.848,"text":"麻煩沈記長請沈記長委員好"},{"start":3472.782,"end":3493.136,"text":"好 謝謝沈議長好 那我想說我今天我要來跟你討論一下就是我們覺得審計這要獨立因為當初也是很支持沈議長您就任謝謝然後我想我還是不要那種政務酬庸的這種奴氣在裡面我覺得審計是一個獨立的那我們希望審計要有骨氣不是奴氣"},{"start":3494.517,"end":3512.413,"text":"我想這次修那個草案裡面你們有跟國會要兩個東西一個是基層的查帳兵這個我絕對支持 百分之百支持但是另外一個你們想要政務官的副審計長這部分我就比較質疑因為這個是政務官的副審計長"},{"start":3515.756,"end":3540.387,"text":"我覺得這是你們要的對不對對但是你理由是寫說因為二級機關像經濟部 交通部他們也都有政務的副手所以你們也要有我想請問一下您認為是這樣嗎因為你們要比照其他二級機關行政院二級機關所以你們也要有你們是這樣子的意思嗎對 因為中央機關組織基準法"},{"start":3545.291,"end":3559.824,"text":"副所長有三個其中兩個是政務一個是常務但是我的機關是因為有它的獨立性所以我是只增加一個政務人員兩個還是維持產日這是考慮這樣的一個情況但是"},{"start":3564.008,"end":3585.108,"text":"你們是審計權你們不是像行政院底下的那些部會因為他們是你們監督的對象然後你們去學他的那個人事制度我覺得這有點不倫不類就好像說你拿著上方跑線的包青天然後你卻要跟那些被你審判"},{"start":3586.269,"end":3613.165,"text":"被你審查的這些人要平起平坐我覺得這很怪為什麼你會去學被你審查者的那個人事制度所以這是我第一個要提的然後第二個我想要提的我一直覺得審計是一個獨立而且很專業的單位所以你的副手應該是要有挺直腰桿的那種骨氣桿子責那個各部會哪裡做不好他是個查帳的將軍但是呢"},{"start":3614.164,"end":3630.503,"text":"如果是政務的副手那我就會擔心很多問題因為我到立法院來我每次質詢的如果今天來的不是長賜是正賜等等的那很多時候我問來問去都是在替執政黨擦脂抹粉那如果今天連一個審計單位"},{"start":3633.137,"end":3646.131,"text":"都讓政黨的手伸進去我會擔心這會有嚴重的後果所以我希望的是一個有骨氣的副手而不是一個看到權力就跪的那種奴氣的一個副手"},{"start":3647.136,"end":3664.509,"text":"所以我的目標是這樣但因為常識跟正識本來就不一樣所以這兩個東西在我感覺就是要分得很清楚所以專業是政府最根本最基本要有的我不希望說連政黨的手都可以伸到裡面"},{"start":3665.29,"end":3684.387,"text":"好那我們來看一下我這次看到你們決算報告對於整個行政院經濟部還有對於那個能源政策我就看到這到底是專業還是又是護航的荒謬然後講第一個我們這次從能源政策來看而且是你們的報告來看來第一個根本就是在畫大餅說移電共生目標是4.4GW"},{"start":3686.964,"end":3709.929,"text":"實際核准的土地只有一層就等於好像是什麼我蓋100棟房子結果找到地能蓋的只剩下10棟所以完全做不到當初政府給人民的承諾政府說我們綠能可以做多少然後這個漁電共生目標可以達到多少但是根本就做不到第一個變化大病第二個"},{"start":3710.669,"end":3727.524,"text":"假養魚我們看到的是你們的報告61頁寫未落實養殖比例頗高也就是說上面裝太陽能板爽爽的零補助底下根本沒有養什麼魚這你們的報告裡面有寫到第61頁所以假養殖增重電這在騙納稅人的錢騙補助的錢"},{"start":3730.527,"end":3754.625,"text":"所以審計法17條你們發現有問題你們有沒有移送而且你們也該移送你們有沒有做到這也是我看到你們報告發現的第三個問題進來潮很兇的規避環評我看到很多案場是化整為零他把它切根成小的案場來規避環評然後導致國土破碎然後行政機關睜一隻眼閉一隻眼然後山野光電板 海野光電板到處亂七八糟"},{"start":3755.926,"end":3783.239,"text":"這個是重大績效的缺失那依據審計法58條你們有沒有實際去查核這也是我質疑的還有第4個台電的部分台電不只整體虧損連台電自己跳下去做的綠能廠台中 金門 永安也都連續3年虧損這裡面資料也有所以政府告訴我們綠能好棒棒但是你們給我的資料是一塌糊塗那你們有做什麼嗎所以"},{"start":3785.744,"end":3805.695,"text":"陳議長我看到之前台南經發局長陳凱玲還有立揚這些弊案其實這綠能的弊案滿天飛蔡總統臉書也開始在質疑這個點所以如果今天再來一個副審計長結果竟然是政務體系的那他來是幫政黨擦脂抹粉"},{"start":3806.676,"end":3819.782,"text":"我就會質疑這個的必要性在哪裡因為我要的是一個查帳的將軍並不是總統派來的一個政策的保姆來護航的那我們看李遠哲之前他曾經報一個料"},{"start":3821.404,"end":3845.956,"text":"因為我們最近那個蔡英文前總統不是說臉書發說希望這綠能的強力速貪嗎那是不是就是承認了蔡總統過去綠能政策其實充滿了很多貪腐的錯誤那周恩院長他曾經爆過料他說他問他跟蔡英文討論這個淨零碳排的困境的時候蔡總統回他2024是下一代的事情那這不就表示這就不關我的事了所以沈院長"},{"start":3847.048,"end":3869.571,"text":"蔡總統走但是你還在我們還是必須維持這個國家一個穩定一個讓人民幸福的一個政策的走向很多時候立法院鬧哄哄行政院謊話連篇但是數字不會騙人所以那個貴部所提出來的數字很多時候是讓我們能夠知道真相讓行政院可以修改自己政策的方向"},{"start":3870.911,"end":3898.165,"text":"所以如果今天貴部是執政黨派一個人來做政事來喬很多事情來告訴你們說這個報告不能這樣要美化那請問一下我們國家還剩下什麼這個是我對於副手的部分這個人事的我的質疑我想最後因為時間關係我想我還有提一個修正東映想設下一個最後的防火牆我會處理我想說把資格鎖死在承認或"},{"start":3899.145,"end":3925.273,"text":"現任或承認副審計長者就是要有要有一定的資歷我不是說反對你們多設一個人而是我希望這個人並不是單純是政治概念的政治的一個人而是說他是真的有專業可以帶領大家去審計的這樣對國家才有幫助這個是對國家有幫助不是對任何政黨有幫助我的想法只是這樣我想讓懂審計的人升上來而不是懂政治的政客跳下來幫忙"},{"start":3927.054,"end":3937.36,"text":"那這個部分我想讓省紀長就可以證明我省紀我驕傲我是省紀人我對國家有貢獻我驕傲我要的是這個我希望來的人是抓老鼠而不是來分蛋糕好 謝謝省紀長謝謝吳委員 謝謝吳宗憲吳委員很寶貴的意見來 接下來請程培宇委員詢答"},{"start":3953.001,"end":3959.722,"text":"好 謝謝主席好 沈記長喝完水了好 有請沈記長辛苦了來 請沈記長"},{"start":3963.641,"end":3990.461,"text":"委員好 審計長我們看到你們提出希望這個相關的修法尤其是增加人事的部分那其實剛剛已經有非常多委員都提醒了我想你們的修法的狀況當然就是要因應業務量的膨脹所以我想因為這個部分很多委員都已經垂詢過我就不再多說那原則上我們當然支持可是我當然希望如同剛剛非常多委員的提醒我們希望有專業的人進到這個位置來協助整個國家的審計業務所以我們來看一下我們辦公室整理完發現其實確實"},{"start":3992.842,"end":4018.235,"text":"從99年開始到現在都沒有增加所以我想你們提出來應該有你們道理跟理由不過我想要努力說服各個委員辦公室這件事情應該是後續您很重要的工作我接下來想要直接跟你討論在審計業務上面我們辦公室發現一個很大的問題來跟你一併討論第一個就是關於行政法人跟行政機關明明是不一樣的可是我們看到審計的量能跟審計的評量成效跟相關指標卻看不出相關的差異"},{"start":4019.275,"end":4033.792,"text":"我不知道這個部分你知不知道我的意思我們來看一下我來解釋一下在表演藝術聯盟去年他們辦了一個公開的論壇在論壇上面就有專家學者說這個審計制度上路20年以來觀察到了實務現象他們用兩廳院來舉例"},{"start":4036.975,"end":4059.901,"text":"兩立院在2004年改制為行政法人之後呢他們的監管機關增加了一倍而且這些機關當中啊包含立法委員也認為自己是監管機關都對行政法人沒有充足的認識導致標準不一什麼意思呢什麼叫標準不一一下子叫行政法人要自負盈虧一下又叫他要增加公共利益好來下一張"},{"start":4060.561,"end":4079.8,"text":"通常增加公共利益跟自負盈虧之間必然會有一些落差我們看了你們審計部的決算報告裡面你們在評鑒行政法人的指標上你們把自籌率視為是非常重要的指標而且你們也要求行政法人要逐年提高自籌率"},{"start":4080.501,"end":4110.081,"text":"可是問題是行政法人的特性是什麼我們來看以兩庭院為例他有專業的需求他需要強化成本效益還有經營的效能具有不適合由政府機關推動也不適合交給民間來辦的特質台灣目前的行政法人幾乎都是專業度很高例如說我舉例這個國家太空中心或國家表演藝術中心這些都跟公共利益有關不管是文化科技研究醫療如果我們要所謂的"},{"start":4111.161,"end":4125.69,"text":"國家太空中心國家表演藝術中心要提高自籌率我們覺得政府政府覺得他們已經獨立出去了很多立法委員也這樣說那就要自籌利益那難道不用考慮商業發展的規模嗎可是又說他要兼顧公共任務"},{"start":4126.65,"end":4146.184,"text":"我認為這件事情有很大的矛盾確實也因為這樣每一年這些法人再到立法院來報告要承擔這個預算給予的時候常常很多時候會被很多立法委員羞辱可是回過頭來看他們因為說公共任務然後國家要給他們錢可是又說自酬率的部分我覺得這個困境很大"},{"start":4146.824,"end":4174.644,"text":"那國表益中心或者是國家太空中心我列了他們的公共任務沈機長看得很清楚他們的公共任務這麼多尤其是太空中心他還要有台灣自主太空技術能力支持國家長期科技發展強化國安災害監測促進產業發展跟國際合作而這些怎麼可能拿來盈利對不對這個很奇怪國表益更奇怪了提升原創能量多元人才培育地方政府合作促進社會資源藝文平權永續發展"},{"start":4176.565,"end":4200.254,"text":"那我想要問的是審計部可以做的應該是去審計法人有沒有妥善的運用預算執行所謂的公共任務再去認識他們的績效可是我們看到你們的報告來關鍵來了審計部的報告裡面呢你們在這個所謂的審計記卡裡面你們給審計人員參考的指標有提到行政法人的自籌率為達目標"},{"start":4201.915,"end":4206.119,"text":"所以我就要問了行政法人他處於一個左也不是右也不是"},{"start":4207.304,"end":4232.581,"text":"要自籌也不是要營利也不是這個狀態那如果自籌率變成是你們審計部很重要很表面的指標查查的深度我認為不夠也可能會挫制你們的審計量能甚至國人看到這個審計報告的時候也會對這個法人的認識是錯誤的甚至立法委員在做質詢的時候也不對所以我這裡要拜託審計部你們在這個部分有沒有相關在執行修的課程或是審計角度的調整來請審計長回答好委員剛剛講的我都認同"},{"start":4237.924,"end":4258.491,"text":"太好了我們有共識行政法人該怎麼樣就怎麼樣但是有時候要去注意一個單位起來的時候我們要讓他能夠自己能夠駐控你像我們去看也是行政法人好像中科院的樣子我們去看他的時候"},{"start":4259.471,"end":4286.853,"text":"它裡面一萬多人有一千多人都是二千等 三千等所以像這種或者是它的採購我們一發現通通很多的都是有趣都是違照產地證明或者是進口證明所以這個我們要讓它上到這個軌道但是有的是盡量讓這個住戶上軌道委員的目標就是我們的目標要讓它這個"},{"start":4287.954,"end":4307.467,"text":"行政法人發揮公共利益剛剛談自酬性的部分因為財政永續對一個法人的存在有相當的所以他要兼顧財政永續的時候因為這些績效指標是他們提出來的如果他提10%我們就用10%來審計他如果他提50%我就用50%審計他我不會鑄創審計指標所以"},{"start":4317.313,"end":4328.345,"text":"回應剛剛沈記長說的我完全認同一在制度上我們絕對要防弊對吧你剛包含你剛講的一萬多人裡面有一千人多人是三個三星等啦採購的問題啦偽造的問題這個制度裡面該怎麼查查我絕對贊成好這個我也認同二"},{"start":4334.312,"end":4355.719,"text":"自籌的部分你剛剛說財政永續這個角度我也支持可是如同你剛剛說的這些法人他們如何制定指標制定10%還是50%如果看起來就您的專業角度有一些單位可能自己搞不清楚狀況的情況下訂得太高我們可能也要建議他們要做出調整或者是有人訂得太低我們也要跟他們說你們不能這樣亂搞"},{"start":4357.159,"end":4380.49,"text":"所以我想後續針對行政法人的這些業務我剛剛舉一些例子你看現在頭影片上也有這麼多行政法人我認為未來我們共同的目標應該是去協助這些行政法人一如何訂定合理的自籌指標二相關在配合國家審計查查制度的時候如何更加完善的協助審計部配合審計部我想以上這樣的結論應該是我們兩個可以有共識的對不對"},{"start":4381.23,"end":4402.827,"text":"很好 我們會照委員的主事我們來幫忙這些行政機關因為這些行政法人這些行政法人是荒辛未哀正在起步 現在有十幾個我們現在會幫忙他好 這個部分的指標我們辦公室也會再跟你們討論好不好好 可以 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":4407.534,"end":4414.419,"text":"謝謝陳培宇委員 接下來請林德福委員詢答謝謝主席 請陳審計長請審計長"},{"start":4438.769,"end":4444.488,"text":"委員好 沈記長你好其實你任這段時間我還是蠻肯定你的就是要"},{"start":4446.937,"end":4465.033,"text":"這個公平公正客觀而且要獨立那個我想審計部的官網自己寫到審計權能否發揮應有之功能其超難獨立之特性最重要的條件是最重要的條件此外審計法第十條規定審計人員要依法獨立行使其審計"},{"start":4470.858,"end":4497.512,"text":"的職權不受干擾那政務官任命受到政治力的影響這個政治高層可能下達政策的指導其恐怕影響整個審計獨立的公正性那我請問審計長對您而言追求審計獨立不受政治操弄您覺得是不是審計部必須要先捍衛他的整個核心價值"},{"start":4498.453,"end":4512.192,"text":"謝謝委員 這是我們的核心價值我們的核心價值就是獨立 專業 廉政 創新這是我們一直掛在我們牆上的四個核心價值這個我非常認同 那個陳記長"},{"start":4513.874,"end":4535.909,"text":"因為政府預算總規模逐年成長1.14年總預算編出兩兆九千五兩兆九千兩百五十億為了看緊人民納稅錢揪出政府整個預算違法使用不當的情況本席認為審計基層能力需要對應來增加本席是不反對但是今天"},{"start":4537.391,"end":4561.551,"text":"這個審計部組織法修法想要增設政務官的副審計長來協助審計長來加速於全面拓展數位審計本席認為說如果政務的副審計長獨立性與公平性已經被外界質疑在沒有獲得朝野立委普遍支持前本席認為審計部"},{"start":4563.493,"end":4585.474,"text":"要好好的想一下如果是增加常務的副審計長我們真的是可以討論那如果需要數位專長意見難道不能跨部會合作由數位發展部與審計部共同合作來推動數位審計嗎你的看法呢"},{"start":4586.634,"end":4588.896,"text":"委員的建議很好我們現在都有和數位發展部共同努力我們也有把我們的人員派給他因為我們有一個資安很強的人員我就請他到數位發展部因為有資安是我們就是國安的問題我們有做這樣的努力"},{"start":4606.226,"end":4618.754,"text":"那個沈記長因為眾所周知政務官政治任命今天草案希望能夠增加政務的副沈記長立法院法治局也建議政務的副沈記長之提請這個"},{"start":4623.243,"end":4635.319,"text":"任命的方式依法治上為不同設計立法院法治局建議為避免審計長之獨立性遭架空政府審計長不僅需具"},{"start":4638.283,"end":4641.164,"text":"那我請問沈記長你是否認同立法院法治局的這種建議認同"},{"start":4661.73,"end":4667.455,"text":"因為政府我們也希望維持大家都有一些餘力我們希望我們的條件任用諸葛的條件能夠維持我們的獨立還有專業如果能夠把這個問題的大家所餘力的強化對我們損失也是一大助力"},{"start":4686.71,"end":4713.822,"text":"所以我同意委員的意思其實事務的副審計長本席是認同你要是政務的話上面指派我認為這個事會有所偏差如果今天在政府想像找對象像中選會前主委李靖勇一樣長久以來就是民進黨黨員政治色彩背景濃厚的數位"},{"start":4715.503,"end":4733.096,"text":"為了要擔任政務副審計長才宣布說退黨轉成無黨籍那本席認為這樣的人選並不適合其超難獨立性令人質疑那我請問審計長你覺得修法要如何避免上述這種情況的發生"},{"start":4733.556,"end":4736.74,"text":"我們委員因為很多的委員都有這種疑慮我們一定政務這一塊我們原則上我們會強化他的專業和獨立如果會影響專業和獨立我同意如果"},{"start":4751.256,"end":4765.483,"text":"沒辦法達成這個目標我同意就徵受我們還是維持常務但是中央機關組織基準法是兩個政務一個常務但是我們是盡量來配合中央機關組織基準法"},{"start":4767.163,"end":4785.682,"text":"我是認為你向媒體報導中油關塘接收站三接外推方案黃波堤興建工程涉及湖報工程預算內容爆料該黃波堤工程原來的預算差不多只有94億在短短期間內"},{"start":4787.944,"end":4806.063,"text":"經歷過4次的加價最終飆到253億過去中油公司的員工這個勾結廠商不時的核銷侵吞公款遭監察院提出糾正案可見中油內控制度以及員工法制的教育均有不足"},{"start":4808.025,"end":4824.496,"text":"請問陳審計長你是否會專業勾肌整個中油三接的工程究竟到底有沒有福報工程預算你們會不會深入了解因為社會上對這一個昏昏繞繞我們本來是事不後有損記看他的成果"},{"start":4825.436,"end":4841.569,"text":"但是昏昏繞繞的時候這個我已經比檢調還早派人要介入調查因為有財務問題有採購問題所以這個我派了我的審計官帶隊最起碼你要給社會有一個交代說確實你們有在做事好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝主席長審計長 不好意思"},{"start":4853.038,"end":4854.979,"text":"好來接下來有請審發會委員主席先請審計長審計長有請謝謝"},{"start":4882.014,"end":4910.016,"text":"委員好 沈議長好我們今天的議程安排有關於我們的審計部組織法有三個條文的修正是第七條第十條跟第十四條三個條文修正這三個條文大概分成三個部分我們就來討論剛剛前面委員大概大家都非常關心有關於第七條的這個修正就是你們要增設一位"},{"start":4911.369,"end":4924.555,"text":"增設一位政務這個政務副首長的這個這個案子那這個你們有立法理由你們提出很多啦為什麼你們認為應該要增設簡單講就是你們認為說現在兩個"},{"start":4928.499,"end":4946.274,"text":"副首長是不夠的啦所以應該有第三個啦這是第一個問題啦要不要有第三個副首長第二個問題是那這個增設的這個是要正路還是要長路這個這又是剛剛我這又是大家所關注的另外一個問題但是我比較關注的是是說齁"},{"start":4948.277,"end":4967.635,"text":"就法字面來講我這今天很大概就是看我們今天所有列席單位的意見那除了主計處主計總署以外我看到這個我們的這個人事行我們的人總跟我們的這個權序部好像都對你們今天三條修法"},{"start":4969.237,"end":4989.899,"text":"在我看已經是蠻強烈的意見了在過去就是有關相關的這個組織法規的修改的時候也許容或各個其他部會容或有不同的看法但是以這麼強烈的態度來對你們這次的修法提出質疑在我看是罕見"},{"start":4991.471,"end":5009.962,"text":"其實很簡單 你有仔細看人總跟這個全序部的報告嗎有喔謝謝他們提供寶貴的意見今天我們人總是由我們專門委員是不是能夠麻煩你上台一下我們就是把大家的意見對一對這個"},{"start":5016.195,"end":5028.733,"text":"簡單講我們現在目前的修法這次你們審計部所提出來第七條有關於這個這個機關副首長的部分你們的立法那個審計長你們的這個立法"},{"start":5030.635,"end":5052.717,"text":"的理由根據是依照這個中央行政機關組織基準法第19條嘛對不對原來第19條這個二級機關得至副首長一人至三人其中一人應列常務職務其餘應列政務職務但是你們現在是相反你們是只有一個政務兩個常務所以你們跟事實上跟19條第二"},{"start":5054.458,"end":5073.564,"text":"這個第二項的規定也不盡相同那更重要的你們引用了第38條你們引用了說本法與行政院以外之中央機關准用之你們認為因為這一條第38條所以你們可以准用第19條第二項對不對我這樣理解是你們的態度對不對那我現在就請問這個任總"},{"start":5077.557,"end":5091.168,"text":"我看你們的書面報告其實蠻簡單的只有三頁而已但是你們的意見卻非常的明確你們認為剛剛我們沈記長所講的這樣子的準用方式用第38條來準用第19條第二項你們有什麼樣的意見"},{"start":5094.793,"end":5122.288,"text":"報告委員那準用的部分就是原則上依照法務部相關的見解就是相關的法規在準用的過程裡面要嘛就一部全部適用要嘛就沒有準用的概念那因為我們裡面也有提到就是說這個準用的部分如果有特殊情況的話它是可以予以續名的那再加上沈記長跟一般的部會他的那個首長任命的情況其實不一樣他是憲法保障"},{"start":5122.868,"end":5149.149,"text":"的部分所以這個部分如果審計部這邊他認為在相關的政務部的副首長設置上有他的特殊旅遊一樣可以訓明他的特殊情況和以上簡單講我看你們的書面意見你們就是說這個如果你要用第30你要用第38條來准用的話你應該是全部都要准用而不是說"},{"start":5151.111,"end":5163.236,"text":"現在你的講法意思就是說如果你只要挑一條準用那你要續名理由要嘛其實你要嘛就是你們所有的你們的組織法你們就應該要準用就我們就"},{"start":5164.921,"end":5180.986,"text":"就全部來准用這個中央行政機關的組織基準法要不然你現在只挑其中一條要准用你要續名你的理由為什麼你要這樣是不是大概意思是這樣吧那這個簡單講就是你們認為認為這個其實像用第38條准用的其實"},{"start":5193.992,"end":5222.21,"text":"過去是主要是考試院對不對考試院我們考試因為是行政機關以外的這些部位主要是考試院那考試院這個他的性質跟行政院組織相近那也設有這個部會組織型態的附屬機關所以你們認為說現行考試院跟這個所屬機關都已經準用基準法制定他們已經全面準用這個組織基準法的適用了但是你們監察院卻沒有"},{"start":5223.19,"end":5234.771,"text":"你們這個屬於監察院的我們的審計部卻沒有都沒有准用但你們今天只挑這一條簡單講你們整個中央組織基準法你們現在就挑第19條第二項來准用"},{"start":5237.691,"end":5261.618,"text":"這部分是不是請這個沈議長你要不要說明一下你們是其他的這個有關於這個我們整個整個這個這個中央組織基準法八號委員是這樣齁我只有一個我的目標出來說我的預算從11兆到27兆的監督規模我的發展方向是要從監督左向洞察"},{"start":5264.299,"end":5287.289,"text":"不好意思因為我沒有注意到說我們今天給的時間那我簡單講那我知道反正因為你有書面在序名裡留但是你要看其實人總跟權序部對你們這條修法都非常非常的保留我講保留已經很客氣了其實都不同意你們這樣子的引用法律這是第一個"},{"start":5288.243,"end":5303.794,"text":"第二個有關於這個審計組織法有關於今天的這個組織法的第10條跟第14條的修正這個他們意見更大這個全序部的意見更大全序部我們今天是是這個師長黃師長"},{"start":5310.682,"end":5320.387,"text":"好 委員長 簡單講你們的這個這個第10條跟第14條的修法來很不好意思 占用到一點時間又沒有注意到今天我們的這個發言時間縮短那麼多這個"},{"start":5324.622,"end":5349.334,"text":"你們第10條 簡單講你們就是增加人先等一下 先審計長 對不對對 希望增加人審計你們從61到91增加到85到115對不對稽查你們從原本的31到61人你們增加到52到79人那另外這個更重要的第10到第14條的時候你們把這個值等做了變更"},{"start":5352.048,"end":5364.079,"text":"那我先不講這個人數的增加的部分就第14條就第14條裡面增列第三項原本第14條是說審計處事之組織另依法律定制"},{"start":5365.399,"end":5375.963,"text":"這個是原本的第三項你們把第三項改成第四項就是說除了第三項以外的其他的有法律定制就是這個授權所訂定的法律就是審計處事組織通則對不對原本的法制是這樣就是這個授權它就是審計處事組織通則"},{"start":5384.727,"end":5412.192,"text":"但是審計初次通則裡面第八條第九條原本把你們這裡的這個審計官原本第八條第九條規定是十到十三值等原本這個按照組織通則是這樣子但是因為民國七十六年實施這個公務人員任用法公務人員任用法實施之後前進部是不是這樣子我現在描述的如果有講錯麻煩你指正我一下"},{"start":5413.562,"end":5434.384,"text":"這是因為這個七十六年一月公務員任用法施行之後公務員任用法的第六條他就授權了訂定中央機關職務的列等表所以現在其實你們是依照列等表在列職等不是依照審計處組織通知在列職等對不對是不是這樣 沈議長現在目前"},{"start":5434.844,"end":5462.827,"text":"目前是因為前夕部有一個列登表我們本來法律規定我是十三指等但是前隔也都十三指等本來法律就是審計處事指示通則用一個行政命令把我列成十二指等我向前夕部要說我法就十三指等你為什麼所有的機關都十三指等為什麼把我列成十二指等他來一個公文你趕快修法所以我就修法所以今天才站在這裡錯了"},{"start":5465.083,"end":5490.794,"text":"我跟你講今天的這個爭議有兩個爭議啦有 全系部不同意兩個部分第一個是說認為你們不應該用組織法不應該把這一條在組織法裡面修正你們應該是要去修正審計處處事組織通則你們應該 因為他法已經授權了嘛這一個因為那個已經十三指等了要我怎麼修那我只有問那個前系部長那我是不是修到組織法他說可以"},{"start":5492.495,"end":5510.795,"text":"好 沈記長我跟你講所以我在最後我簡單的結論就是這樣就是說你今天這個修法其實沒有得到人種跟權序部這些相關相關的這些機關你們沒有得到他們的共識大家沒有這個共識所以你們在沒有共識的情況下你們就提出來"},{"start":5511.576,"end":5526.976,"text":"全新部有他的理由我剛講兩個部分第一個是形式上面你們不應該用組織法來修這個值等這個是他們第一個意見第二個意見實質內容你們要把它全部通通提升為十三值等他們也有意見因為你們這個違反了你們這個"},{"start":5529.379,"end":5540.325,"text":"我的華 我的通則是十三十等所有的機關都十三十等所以你的通則 他們的意思啦我都 人啊 都是一條邊的 他們派來的啊我知道 沈縣長 他們的意見他們的意見就是認為你們應該這個組織通則應該要去修改應該要去修改對不對 全區部是不是這個意見就是說他們不應該用組織"},{"start":5553.052,"end":5577.95,"text":"但是我有打電話給他的部長 他的部長說可以因為我的通走已經十三組等了 你要叫我怎麼修不好意思 我沾到你的時間你打電話給他的部長 他部長所說的跟他們今天寫在書面白紙黑字寫的意見是不一樣的啦我審計部今天會壓到這麼低啊他們多數前夕部的多數派來的人事主任啊"},{"start":5578.615,"end":5604.965,"text":"因為我最後講結論因為各機關職稱機關等的這個配置標準的這個配置準則裡面他的第九條第九條第一項第五款裡面他有針對一二級機關主管機關的檢認非主管職跟這個二二級單位主管的原額配置的比例他有規定應該是70%而已而你們現在修法之前你們就已經到達80%"},{"start":5607.306,"end":5625.584,"text":"84的修法之後會到達150%這個人數他是怎麼算出來我不知道我所有的簡訊啦現在占比只有百分之十二我要去查國家的法照我要查少主化我要查氣候變遷這個要五到七等能查嗎"},{"start":5626.947,"end":5640.678,"text":"那個沈縣長我跟你講我個人我個人並沒有說在這裡質疑你的修法你都一直幫我 等一下如果我的人事主任是你前事務你對前事務很不爽是意思是這樣子都是他派來的人啊"},{"start":5642.606,"end":5661.945,"text":"派來 我要修這個法的時候我要告訴人質主任一定要在法輪裡面來修今天修來了他還寫這麼多意見我有怎麼辦法這就是我今天答詢的主旨就是說怎麼會在修法裡面全序部跟人總寫這麼大的意見在修法裡面"},{"start":5662.205,"end":5682.869,"text":"法規十三族等他用一個行政命令把我押到所有族等我還很客氣的說是不是大家都十三族等給我 阿你笑話等一下如果我們真的能夠進入族條的話我們再來好好討論我相信這個議題應該等一下很多委員都在旁邊那個摩拳擦掌來 謝謝沈發惠委員 謝謝沈記長來 沈記長喝一口水休息一下賴委員喝一口 好不好接下來有請賴世保委員 謝謝"},{"start":5693.223,"end":5693.283,"text":"來 由請沈記長 謝謝"},{"start":5708.635,"end":5711.698,"text":"謝謝主席 以及各位先進 沈記長你今天的重點就是要一位政務官的副沈記長就是這樣嘛 最重要的是這個嘛 還有其他呢都要啦 其他有什麼有三條 有三條 我實在今天 我也很想"},{"start":5730.777,"end":5734.54,"text":"我這樣喔 那個都危困欸 我打得很緊張欸我也很想看你這樣在北新台這麼生氣因為啊 長年啦 鬱悶啦鬱悶 鬱族啦鬱族被全市部欺負啦 對不對人要不到 組長要不到被人種欺負啦 就是這樣這個單位其實可以幫國家做一點事的單位是"},{"start":5757.184,"end":5767.598,"text":"幫國家做事就一定要給一個人來啦 一條一條講你可以基層增加 審計人員職等提高這我沒意見我最有意見是請你的副審計長"},{"start":5771.403,"end":5789.197,"text":"你要把他政治任命 這個我很有意見這個就是道地的量身定做聽說你的人都找好了沒有啦都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了"},{"start":5794.108,"end":5815.228,"text":"很多的事情都要栽培上次你問我為什麼那個你問我說你怎麼細潤怎麼會那個我說我差不多半年前就相關的人員講說我要結甲歸田那結甲是沒有 都是說解掉這個植物我要回到去種田"},{"start":5817.343,"end":5843.729,"text":"但是最後啊 我要培育我的人產我們也給你擠一擠啊 但是來 我問你 我問你 我問你重點在這裡齁 增加一個如果 如果啦 if啦 愛if啦齁同意你呢 但是我們要改成這是常務官 實質職等不可以中務官 你看我是什麼官我是這樣啦齁"},{"start":5845.907,"end":5865.376,"text":"政務是剛剛大家都笑我叫機關基準法機關基準法兩個政務一個常務所以我說就一個政務吧兩個常務這是我的特性專業獨立但是增加一個政務官大家有所懷疑"},{"start":5866.671,"end":5879.063,"text":"當然懷疑啊這個東西就是民進黨的手伸進來啦他們已經有人要這個位置啊所以如果可以的話可以的話強化"},{"start":5881.792,"end":5905.472,"text":"那個互損機長的專業 獨立為什麼要政府官啊 你沒有回答我問題啊為什麼要政府官 常務官你也可以啊常務官你可以啊 為什麼要政府官 修就是對的啊大家有的人都 剛剛我就是這樣講啊大家都有的要叫我叫這樣 有的要叫我那樣我的組織通知有13組等 他就要要我12組等用行政命令壓勒"},{"start":5906.493,"end":5910.958,"text":"你現在 劇統要講問你這個問題 你不要回答其他的啦請問你的副省機場幾值等14值等14值等啊我們就加一個14值等的常務文官給你我是這樣啦你效果達到了獨立專業沒辦法解決 我同意你的意思"},{"start":5926.936,"end":5942.464,"text":"對嘛 因為如果那個證物我能夠把它任用諸葛的條件加到能夠專業獨立盡量大家所有的部位都有證物啊"},{"start":5942.944,"end":5948.529,"text":"要怎麼樣去獨立嘛你只要政治任命就不會有獨立啦這個東西 執政黨三個人進國進來所以你心目中是什麼條件"},{"start":5961.261,"end":5976.333,"text":"加上他承認什麼承認什麼 你講嘛 承認什麼承認副審計長五年 或者審計官八年 九年 我都同意所以你心目中 心目中人選已經有了嘛要做這個 要那個 這個那個都有了那個人就在燈火燃山處在那 他們在那對不對 就是這樣"},{"start":5987.121,"end":6015.26,"text":"負責任的 做一個人啦要負責任 你要替國家栽培人才啊你說啊 這個我都不會你看我已經七老八十了 還要在這裡做還在這裡生氣還今天這麼生氣 喔我還想看到你這麼生氣看到 我來這裡講大家都電話通好了來這裡寫成這樣要人沒人 要主等沒主等所以你今天來這裡很壯的我要替國家做一點事也不可以"},{"start":6017.041,"end":6023.864,"text":"你簡單來講啦 你對全序部長很不爽你對人事長很不爽但是還是不爽他有他的主責啦 他盡量他電話給你說OK來這裡書面資料就不OK啊"},{"start":6036.73,"end":6055.24,"text":"我感覺他對我還蠻友善的因為大家都說他不友善我後來回頭一看好像不友善齊一族我感覺他是友善的他電話跟你很友善啦這個人情手牽手背後下毒手啦他的宿命之鬥是把你抬得這樣對不對"},{"start":6060.423,"end":6064.749,"text":"主席他為了國家的體系你還是沒有回答問題假如我們審查會說好你講了很多理由通通買單但是常任不可以證物"},{"start":6077.662,"end":6098.223,"text":"最後的底線啦最後底線啦齁我跟你說 這樣才有通啦你用政務的不通啦因為這個政府你可以看喔我們的外交體系也可以很多的應該是文官都變成政務官啊 民啊 法啊都變政務官這個東西都變政治任命不好啦"},{"start":6100.365,"end":6123.121,"text":"就獨立性就不好啦這個就這樣啦 這個我都同意啦有時候你才看不夠 剛剛那個吳委員在這裡喔 本來在講那檢察官一千多人 通通可以升到十四組等所以你今天火氣很大咧很大 因為這個沒公平的事情 我一向都很大所以今天他很不爽表面上"},{"start":6125.233,"end":6129.176,"text":"實際上很重就對了 來來來最後一個問題 小問題 來來來我先問你喔1.5兆的特別預算 裁員他稅基剩餘加舉債如果現在沒有稅基剩餘的 幾乎都舉債每一個人5.43億喔 那麼現在政府一直說 裁判法通過要舉債2000億你現在還舉債1兆2000億你要不要講一下 財政紀律講一下"},{"start":6154.31,"end":6167.474,"text":"現在啊這幾年控制的很好都差不多五兆多啦你寫出來都五兆多在整個都壓在六五兆五兆九千多萬所以這幾年的財政是現在增加一定要五兆喔稅收還不錯經濟那個"},{"start":6169.495,"end":6177.417,"text":"科技方面稅收還不錯所以1.25兆我知道行政院他是分8年8年除1.25乘以8年的話差不多1.1500多億但是這個行政院的條例還有這個1.25兆的這些的編制"},{"start":6189.301,"end":6207.196,"text":"我這次預算編註前是在行政院損益權在立法院我們尊重 我們都損益我們一定照立法院損益的結果來損益好啦 你們要看這個財政機率啦要注意這個 好 謝謝好 謝謝賴市保委員好 謝謝陳機長 辛苦了餒好 你先喘一下你喘一下 你喘一下"},{"start":6217.97,"end":6226.897,"text":"但是沈記長剛說他沒有不爽啦表面上好接下來有請宗嘉斌委員好那有請等一下來宗嘉斌委員來"},{"start":6237.154,"end":6253.612,"text":"主席 在場委員 先進列席總監事長 官員會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生先讓沈記長喘口氣我們請權敘部的王司長和任總的廖專門委員權敘部法規司司長還有任總的專委 謝謝"},{"start":6256.055,"end":6281.608,"text":"好 来请教一下我看全旭部 市长我看你们的意见第一你们对于政治政务副省级长你们是尊重吗那你们对于所谓的这个检任官二级单位主管的原额设置你们好像觉得比例上不符合我们相关的规定 是不是相关是70% 目前会变成150%"},{"start":6283.108,"end":6301.456,"text":"好 但是我看你们提到14条的部分你们认为这个所谓的相较于地方直辖市的一级机关首长那么中央的三级机关首长以他上述横平所以列12到13之等你们觉得OK吗是"},{"start":6302.176,"end":6318.167,"text":"那所以你们看起来的意见只有一个地方是认为说不应该定在我们上级机关的组织法应该定在下级机关的组织规程嘛是那沈议长都清楚了嘛所以应该不会有那么大的一个情绪啦是不是"},{"start":6319.088,"end":6340.87,"text":"你們認為這樣我們來確認一下因為我看到我們今天很難得我們看到考試院跟這個監察院的機關之間的意見不同但是我看也還好來我現在問問任總來任總專委請教一下我看你們的意見對於政治政務副審計長也沒有也尊重嗎"},{"start":6341.958,"end":6358.697,"text":"是委員那你們認為我們行政院有一個韓式對不對106年1月24號那認為監察院考證與行政組織相似也定有組織法所以呢你們認為呢可以參照這個基準法規的規定是不是這樣子"},{"start":6360.319,"end":6385.012,"text":"報告委員原則上是審計部這邊的修法他有說要參考基準法規範因為我們這邊是說如果是用準用的規範的話是要全部適用但是如果有特殊例外的話可以續名他的理由特殊例外您特別提到中華民國憲法第104條審計長有總統提名這個跟其他的行政院的一級機關二級行政機關的時候很不同對不對是"},{"start":6386.013,"end":6400.822,"text":"所以在行政院二級機關首長他底下所轄的這些三級機關跟省紀長他作為很特殊的跟行政院二級機關所在不同的地方你認為可以特殊考量嗎看起來是這樣吧是 就看省紀部他的好 謝謝好 那我們請省紀長"},{"start":6402.151,"end":6407.793,"text":"兩位先回 沈記長這樣聽得清楚嗎 他們都沒反對沒反對 剛才提名起來他們都沒反對你說他們說你們這個沈記長是由總統提名由立法院同意來任命的比起行政院的二級機關的首長來講這個還不一樣 你還特別所以你底下的這些下級機關怎麼設置"},{"start":6425.077,"end":6449.777,"text":"是應該可以有另外的考量好 那我現在開始問本題了首先我們看第一頁來 還是從事我每次問審計長都要把審計部門講一遍你的職長呢是事後權 是監督預算的執行審核財務的收支還有要怎麼樣要去稽查不法跟不忠於職務的行為要考核效能 要核定責任對不對對所以這三個是你的重要責任你常常提醒 所以我練之再之"},{"start":6450.698,"end":6468.672,"text":"是 你应该比我熟了我们看往下看来你们这组执法第7条第10条第14条第1条第7条是讲说是副省进场二至三人目前我们的规定是一至三人其中一人得列为常务你们现在两人都是常务所以可以征涉一个证物的对 OK好"},{"start":6469.913,"end":6486.471,"text":"那再來你們提到這個審計法第10條你們的審計官現在問題來了審計官你們希望擴增審計的人力那還有審計官要兼任地方的審計處長好 顯然的你要擴充人力你要讓你的審計官可以去地方擔任處長是這樣意思嗎"},{"start":6488.68,"end":6517.486,"text":"他本來就是損機關就是監地方處就監任但是我們看到其他機關的意見是說你幹嘛用監任你用專任的啊專任的夠不夠這是我損系的特性因為我的損系是要出去查賬要出去查賬好 那我請教一下他的特性好 來 沈議長你聽過三個臭皮匠勝過一個諸葛亮有沒有聽過有人常聽 常聽那如果是三個臭皮匠勝過一個諸葛亮那如果對上兩個諸葛亮你覺得哪邊比較贏"},{"start":6518.775,"end":6539.237,"text":"這個沒算過沒有算過 好 那你認為你跟副審計長誰是諸葛亮 誰是臭皮匠都扮演了相互的角色我是意思說如果是審計長是諸葛亮你有兩個副審計長現在你希望有多一個副審計長有三個臭皮匠就可以勝過你這個諸葛亮你同意嗎"},{"start":6540.939,"end":6567.519,"text":"應該同意他們都比我有經驗老到好 但是呢如果說你把你兩個副省議長都變成跟你一樣的是諸葛亮你還需要第三個臭皮匠嗎這是這樣啦 大家這是數學問題啦因為委員在其實啊 我就這個增加一個委員在財政委員會希望我加強監督地方我想出的方法之一"},{"start":6567.759,"end":6577.126,"text":"所以這個不是三個臭皮匠也不是兩個諸葛亮的問題是因為有特殊業務的關係你第三個副審計長是要證物是要列為什麼數位審計對不對所以因為職長不同專長不同所以你希望就像說不能只靠兩個諸葛亮你還有什麼要照雲要有關羽有不同的專業負責是不是這樣的意思對好所以呢既不是諸葛亮也不是臭皮匠你要增加副審計長有照雲"},{"start":6595.319,"end":6621.062,"text":"這個趙子鵬有關雲廠的來協助好不好OK好往下看來那你擴增審計人力因為你認為政府收支上升業務複雜化還有跨域跟前瞻的審計所以根據目前我們要很嚴格好像請教一下如果你地方的審計長說哎呀不用增加那麼多人不用增加10個人審計長你不用幫我增加10個人你只要增加5個人薪水通通給我我就幫你把事情幹好你覺得有可能嗎"},{"start":6622.472,"end":6641.583,"text":"因為不可能 因為現在整個損盡市平均才13個 14個損盡人力基本人力都不足所以是人力不夠 不是能力不夠對不對基本人力都不足 會造成惡性行為我確定一下 你認為是人力不夠不是能力不夠 也不是薪水不夠"},{"start":6642.423,"end":6657.799,"text":"好 那我問一下假如今天有立法委員說立法院組織法給我8到14個助理要花掉50萬一個月那你不用給我那麼多助理你50萬給我我就可以把事情搞定你覺得這樣符合你剛剛講的是人力的問題還是能力的問題還是薪水的問題你覺得呢"},{"start":6662.023,"end":6688.582,"text":"助理在立法案已經形成非常重要的一環是和立法案息息相關幫助立法委員幫助國家處理很多事情所以助理的東西我們還是要善待所以呢你認為是應該維持助理8到14名的編制這樣的人力而不是說把他的錢交給立委統籌運用就可以達到同樣的立法效能是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":6689.122,"end":6692.664,"text":"要做一個訴求要順順所利不能說處理了這個事情造成發生了另外一個問題所以我們這樣的話反而會這個對整個功能或怎麼樣要去考慮評評非常重要那又有委員的修法要把這個改成補助兩個字補助補助在我們審議當中它的會計屬性是什麼"},{"start":6716.753,"end":6730.1,"text":"補助就是說這個是多少給予補助要不要審計要不要做平均核銷 簡均核銷任何國家的財動 國家的資源我們都審計"},{"start":6734.042,"end":6753.573,"text":"來 我要看主計處 主計總處黃專門委員是不是所有政府的補助款這個科目下的補助款都要列入檢據核銷是不是是是 好 可以 謝謝來 我們看一下 來 陳議長你看一下目前的修法是說通通這些50萬一個月的助理費用交給立委統籌運用免檢據核銷這個符合我們主計跟審計相關的規定嗎"},{"start":6758.069,"end":6777.984,"text":"免檢劇核銷但是他的錢到哪裡我們還是會注意我們在實際的立場還會注意你說法律規定免檢劇核銷你們還可以查到他的用處你們這麼厲害那既然這麼厲害通通不用檢劇核銷你們用心電感應就知道這個錢有沒有花去了是不是這樣嗎因為有免檢劇核銷有這樣的話我們會尊重立法"},{"start":6782.215,"end":6801.769,"text":"立法院如果寫免檢拒核銷你們也尊重但是你們要用心電感應去了解委員有沒有自肥是不是因為我會用數位審計你會用數位審計所以你要告訴陳一正委員如果委員要自肥你就算法律訂了免檢拒核銷我審計長還是有辦法用透過我的數位查到你的錢流到哪裡去是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":6802.797,"end":6819.409,"text":"這個免檢劇核銷可能要慎重最後的結論對於未來如果立法有提到補助款用免於檢劇核銷的幽靈補助如何進行有效審計你說你很厲害你有數位審計三個月內給我提出一個報告告訴我你怎麼做好不好"},{"start":6820.689,"end":6847.324,"text":"可以嗎因為還沒有成為事實我們都不用成為事實啊我只要本院有可能立一個法補助款免減去核銷就已經寫在新聞上面了你要趕快提早因應啊能夠雙贏好 雙贏 那你提早因應萬一過了 你三個月也到了報告就寫出來了我們就可以告訴立法院說立法院委員陳玉珍你不用先放心你做得到嗎 三個月提出一個報告能夠讓他放心 因為"},{"start":6847.864,"end":6854.79,"text":"好啦 那我就問嘛你有效審計監督你做得到嗎三個月提個報告給我們好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員接下來請羅志強委員詢答有請審計長請陳審計長"},{"start":6875.456,"end":6889.368,"text":"委員好沈議長我先很快的說我的結論你們的三項訴求那有關於說要增至實際執行查核的審計人力本席在這邊表達支持謝謝那針對所謂的要這個審計部審計官兼處長職務列檢認12至13職等本席也是支持謝謝"},{"start":6899.597,"end":6914.445,"text":"那這兩個支持的基礎說真的就是我覺得過去對審計部的表現本席是肯定的謝謝所以我覺得有實際作用來端正關針來去查核政府預算"},{"start":6915.365,"end":6935.715,"text":"有做到這個功能的話基本上審計部要把值等調多調高要把這個員額增加我覺得是個有功能的單位基本上本席都支持那當然本席對於所謂的要不要這個副審計長是不是要增加這個我也沒太大意見但是要"},{"start":6936.356,"end":6943.828,"text":"列政務任用這個部分我個人是有點疑慮在後面我再跟您說但是我要前面先來講講審計部為什麼我覺得說"},{"start":6946.314,"end":6965.471,"text":"我會支持審計部不管是員額增加還有職等調整除了你們列的那個立法理由之外那我覺得幾件事情我想要請教一下那個審計長超司機彈案審計部的估算過期彈號以及冷凍倉儲還有銷毀費用是9,130萬對不對"},{"start":6972.368,"end":6980.959,"text":"這你們有報告然後加上雞蛋的原採購平均成本是7.6元整體損失費用是高達5億2997萬餘元"},{"start":6986.141,"end":7009.073,"text":"这个当时审计部我觉得有帮我们政府帮人民来监督超市鸡蛋这一点我是要肯定的谢谢可是你知道结果被控独职图利等罪的农业部的前后部长畜牧师的前后任司长畜产会的前董事长最后也都是不起诉"},{"start":7010.561,"end":7027.855,"text":"那我都覺得說這個是一個問題啦就當然不能怪審計部啦我覺得很可惜審計部前端查到政府這樣的一個所謂的浪費乃至於對於法令的所謂的一些甚至有一些違反的問題可是後端好像審計部盡好職務 堅守崗位"},{"start":7031.778,"end":7045.143,"text":"後端的我們所有的一些該要究責的程序跟機關也沒有跟上那平白的我就舉例那請問這些錢消耗的是誰的錢人民的錢"},{"start":7046.926,"end":7075.786,"text":"另外我也看到省纪部也揪出劳动部5年以来滥用就业安定基金7224万包括许明春开演唱会谢怡龙办公室装潢都被省纪部认定是难以验核履约结果林日公及导演团队所拍的影片最后这些叫不服用途关联性不高省纪部也都做了很多的监督但是我想请问"},{"start":7077.152,"end":7082.914,"text":"審計部我也還是一樣覺得很可惜即便審計部抓到這些東西請問最後這些錢還是誰出這個財政部那個勞動部還在逐項查明可能就有輸入他當然我已經通知他像現在法院在判也會默入所得你要去申請還回那個就業安定期是我們也在我們也是 誰還"},{"start":7103.92,"end":7123.238,"text":"這個是末日所得本來繳入國庫但是這是安置基金的錢安置基金是來自比較像一些輸能的人繳的那些這個要回到公益裡面去對 好 我覺得非常好起碼還因為審計部前面有做前端"},{"start":7124.301,"end":7144.386,"text":"不然後面這些可能都沒有嘛所以這是為什麼我跟人特別講就是說基本上我對於審計部過去的一些表現我覺得相對的是肯定的但是我們的後段的政府單位我真的是覺得好像是前面努力把關後面努力放人"},{"start":7145.339,"end":7166.827,"text":"那之前你也看到那電鍋案嘛對不對電鍋案也是32元的電鍋被判刑可是超市雞蛋5億好像不用人負責一樣那更糟糕的是什麼南門中計市場案審計長你應該知道這個案子嘛這個案子實際上是我最早最早質詢也最早開記者會"},{"start":7169.57,"end":7193.872,"text":"那當時赤字1.8億用不到四年終極市場明明可以作為東門終極市場使用結果當時就是蘇發布說要蓋辦公室他不讓台北市政府繼續租就把這1.8億的這個終極市場拆掉了拆掉以後請問沈機長知道發生什麼事嗎您知道吧 對不對蘇發布跟大家講沒有 我不蓋了 辦公室我不蓋了"},{"start":7195.353,"end":7214.344,"text":"我就問沈記長是不是赤裸裸浪費那1.8億公帑做公務員我是希望站在國家整體立場來看任何事情就可以見氣情見對啊 那我就講說光這件事情就看到說但我還是謝謝審計部審計部對速發部的所謂的一直在搞速發部變辦公室發展部的問題"},{"start":7221.482,"end":7246.621,"text":"就也說過速發部解決辦公空間不足要外租大樓又限定在台北市中正區然後租下火車站前的星光大樓到去年底總共18個月的租金就要將近7000萬而速發部說明裝修費用是3400萬所以要花1.4億實際上省紀部也認為台北新北早就生活圈嘛對不對"},{"start":7247.722,"end":7269.561,"text":"你沒有一定要陷在台北市中正區那我也不知道為什麼今天說真的還是一句話我也肯定省進部把問題點出來零零種種包括說我最近踢爆中油三接工程的福報的弊案福報金額牽涉到150億之多這些其實也都是人民的納稅錢"},{"start":7272.636,"end":7285.145,"text":"點點滴滴我是要勉勵我們審計部一定要做好把關最後我就要講但是呢今天我看到政務人員你不要怪這個本席看到這四個字心裡就會開了有點忐忑"},{"start":7289.312,"end":7316.417,"text":"其實民進黨執政這些年我先從監察院你省進部所屬的上級機關講起你光是監察委員政治辦案比比皆是然後再加上對於所謂民進黨高層像陳忠彥涉及新招待關說這些微私證據監察院也不敢彈劾陳忠彥中選會本來獨立機關表現是如何大家去看看完全沒有獨立機關的立場"},{"start":7318.632,"end":7345.235,"text":"NCC初轉會現在還有很多的各部會獨立機關都沒被放過那現在問題來了沈記長你們這一次我是很相信你但是你們這次要把這副沈記長做政務任用我還是要請沈記長再多想想怎麼去平息社會各界疑慮這一點的話其實有些委員有提出非常多的疑慮但我知道翁翔宇委員有提一個"},{"start":7347.084,"end":7367.578,"text":"有點像是折衷版就是說基本上針對這個所謂的偵測的副審計長針對副審計長資格要做很多的一些更多的一些明定有所謂的常務官文官審計官的這些經驗那怎麼樣再做後續的進一步的修法不要讓這種所謂的政治酬庸的這張這個文化"},{"start":7369.739,"end":7379.576,"text":"也進到審計部審計部好不容易我覺得到目前為止表現我是肯定的不要讓政治仇恨文化進到審計部好 謝謝我們如果政務副審計長我們的條件"},{"start":7382.846,"end":7403.46,"text":"盡量能夠強化他的專業監督還有獨立有困難的話我們剛剛也像那些委員講如果大家還是有疑慮我們盡量強化如果有疑慮有委員也希望說那就改常務但是我是希望能夠強化這個地方來解決這個問題因為這個是"},{"start":7405.842,"end":7414.268,"text":"中央機關基準法裡面最基本的有一些政務人員大概我做這樣的一個向委員報告謝謝委員 謝謝我們的審計長的開放態度 謝謝謝謝羅志強委員接下來請王一川委員發言"},{"start":7435.854,"end":7439.458,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請審計長請審計長委員好 謝謝委員那個審計部在公務體系裡頭是不是很過人的啊當然啊 你齋章發福他會說大家很開心的 不可能的所以我這裡 我遇到這樣 我在找優良案例好"},{"start":7458.41,"end":7462.731,"text":"第二個是你有看過你們各處的處長去到議會備詢的狀況嗎有你覺得這樣的場景適合嗎都因為這是主軸所在要甘之足矣"},{"start":7475.492,"end":7493.483,"text":"因為你們報告寫下來嘛 就是寫一寫 然後到應該都年底啦年底就會進議會嘛那就是不同政黨的人 有些拿來攻擊嘛那有些拿來請這個處長 解說說這句話是什麼意思嘛對嘛 我來齁 一定要叫他們橫評報導 後悔愛笑 敗也愛笑"},{"start":7501.519,"end":7509.723,"text":"那你們做審計就是各縣市政府自己定的標準你們以那個標準去審計對 因為我們不會注定標準"},{"start":7513.066,"end":7527.976,"text":"那我請問一下你們報告出來之前你們當然這個寫報告過程中會請各縣市政府提供相關的資料嗎會請他提供相關資料以後還會請他看看這樣是不是客觀公正那也會請相關的人員來到處裡頭一般我們會去抽查的時候就會和他們開會議那最後這個報告出來之前"},{"start":7544.54,"end":7561.039,"text":"還有讓這些單位的同仁啦比如說各縣市政府局處的人員再有一次辯駁的機會嗎有 我們這個是很基本就審計很基本的因為我們客觀公正那他辯駁完的內容會再放進去報告嗎"},{"start":7562.69,"end":7580.537,"text":"客觀他講的有道理有沒有道理是誰決定因為我們現在查一個都要損記發現還有要有客觀數據他沒辦法反駁我的客觀數據他如果反駁了你覺得沒道理你們會不會把他的說明放進去有都會"},{"start":7585.925,"end":7591.047,"text":"他會怎麼樣要看有的是說會這個明顯的沒有道理為什麼這樣問是因為會有這個狀況就是說這個事情已經都跟審計處講過了那審計處我們就去說過了審計處就硬要這樣寫到最後到了議會去議會議員會質詢你們的處長就會回答回答完之後媒體就會來問這個局長"},{"start":7614.964,"end":7619.872,"text":"欸 局長 啊 審計 你那審計處會這樣寫啊 你有什麼意見啊 我就把審計處說不是這樣啊 他就要寫啊那不可以 有沒有遇到這種事 有"},{"start":7626.124,"end":7649.324,"text":"那怎麼辦 我已經在 我已經啊 我提面命說人家有道理的事情啊 你一定要客觀公正好 我是建議這樣啦就是說相關的 因為你們的審計是按照各單位他們自己定的標準去審計 對吧他標準定很低也是他家的事 對好 那"},{"start":7651.209,"end":7673.005,"text":"我是建議這樣就是說你們在這個因為你們那個報告都有粗體字粗體字裡頭會有價值判斷我叫他們盡量不要下各種的意見那就是這些用字我是覺得相關的用字標準化譬如說未達標"},{"start":7674.935,"end":7680.082,"text":"未達標的沒達標嘛對 有人說這最賣的這樣人就很生氣了我知道 剛才就是說那些用字因為我跟你講"},{"start":7685.751,"end":7689.653,"text":"你們的審計報告到了年底是各縣市議員非常重要的參考文件對 怕連那個可以連很久除了你們的處長去報告那一場以外後面就是一直連 一直連有些地方的媒體就寫五六篇寫得很簡單因為你們裡頭寫了蠻多價值判斷在裡頭"},{"start":7707.602,"end":7718.485,"text":"用了一些成語 情緒性的字眼那這個可能慢慢再改啦 已經改很多啦這個可能要調整一下因為你們是比較有客觀的標準在談這件事因為我只會被定位為說你們在批評某一個縣市長的施政有時候會落到這樣我們是要用善意把關要從善 共助善助"},{"start":7734.366,"end":7739.692,"text":"第二個就是我們今天討論比較多的這個證物證用你還可以講一下為什麼要證物證用你們的副手 副作為什麼要有一個是證物證用你不可以說我們本人都有 我也要有"},{"start":7748.582,"end":7773.105,"text":"就是審計單位的特性 為什麼要政務任用就是說這件事情 再講一下你不要再告訴我 因為別人有我也要有這最主要 我常務大部分都遵照一般在執行遵照我們的政策方向在執行政務會協助破壞一些 審計的方向 審計的政策"},{"start":7775.047,"end":7782.753,"text":"常務的就沒辦法也是辦法啦 但是就剛才你說的這個國家的體制你就叫我不要講那個我就講他可是我是說為什麼要政務啦 不懂啊就是這樣 政務有政務的功能嘛常務有常務的功能等一下 你的任期會不會跨越總統的任期看起來不會喔看起來不會喔不一定啦 這個因為還要閒啦"},{"start":7800.69,"end":7803.038,"text":"還要嫌我不知道我說在設計上設計上會跨越嗎"},{"start":7806.491,"end":7831.515,"text":"一定跨 我是小英第一陣子蔡總統提名我跨越了蔡總統 到了賴總統對 所以就是你設計上你有可能會跨越不同的總統會跨越不同的那個但是我們都是不管是哪一個總統我們都是秉持我們審計獨立的精神該替國家把關那你覺得這個總統會對審計長啊"},{"start":7835.436,"end":7860.86,"text":"就是說我國家政策要這樣走 所以沈記長要跟著走嗎 會呢兩任的總統都沒有給我交代金的事情那如果不會的話 那你的這個副沈記長 或者這個副座啊副座為什麼要跟政務任命有關呢剛剛講嘛 我一個人會將人財進不是啦 你就用常務的就好"},{"start":7861.843,"end":7869.77,"text":"常務的喔 常務的就比較執行都聽我的 我就要自己拚正務的就沒有要聽你的嘛 對不對沒有啦 他可以陪我到處啦常務的也可以 所以你這事情你還是沒解決啦這個說法上啦我是說你要跟社會解釋正務跟常務在這件事情上的差別第二個我最後問一個問題啦今天你的報告 今天兩個單位來喔"},{"start":7889.187,"end":7902.319,"text":"都企劃調價 你說什麼都沒有啊 都沒有啊你聽我講 你聽我講你聽我講 你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我"},{"start":7910.145,"end":7912.767,"text":"你剛剛有講說 你有跟那個部長聯絡嘛我請問一下你們這個案子要送出來你們三個單位有開過火嗎三個單位沒有啦 因為我是順治獨立 我要送監察員監察員一定 心境一定會擾人所以制度上你們 要支持 祝福"},{"start":7937.803,"end":7944.228,"text":"制度上你們三個不可以一起開會你們三個單位會一起開會嗎不會因為我審計有審計的獨立在我那個世界最高審計機關來講要審計獨立不能受到行政的牽制"},{"start":7958.902,"end":7972.769,"text":"不是啦 開尾啦這邊簽署得很厲害啊我說開尾啦 不一定簽字啦所以這個會不會開了對不對你們三個補會有啦 都有去問啦都有去問說這樣可以嗎大家都說可以啊來到這裡都說不行搞不好說種植品挑我挑我問問的都可以啦剛才那太虛弊太虛弊好啦 萬一你說製度上你要做這個開尾做一個會議紀錄有困難對不對沒有啦 因為這製度上OK 好 了解 好 謝謝"},{"start":7990.834,"end":8005.1,"text":"好 謝謝王逸川委員沈記長在回覆的時候也都很直白這也很好立場讓大家知道接下來我們有請專業的翁曉琳委員謝謝莊召委那麼我首先先請沈記長請沈記長"},{"start":8025.283,"end":8037.767,"text":"今天主要是要討論有關於審計部組織法修正的事情我想就是在大家最為關切的也就是有關於審計部未來打算要增設政務副審計長現在主要是常務的副審計長未來要增加的是政務的副審計長"},{"start":8046.149,"end":8057.162,"text":"那當然大家對於增加政務副審計長最concern的就是怕會不會以後政務副審計長又變成政治酬庸那當然這個審計長這邊有保證說還是會以專業考量來提名這個政務的副審計長不過我在想說就法條的設計上面"},{"start":8066.192,"end":8084.193,"text":"因為現在對於這個審計長的任用資格在審計部組織法裡面第二條裡面其實就列出很多項規定那本席這邊是也會接下來我會提出一個修正動議就是針對副審計長的資格也要明併甚至可能就是要準用"},{"start":8085.154,"end":8114.032,"text":"在审计部组织法第二条提名审计长的时候的前两项的专业规定也就是说要曾经担任过副审计长或者是具备有审计官9年以上资格的人才可以担任政务副审计长这个部分的话不知道审计长您的看法如何如果说我们要强化有关于政务副审计长的资格的话是不是可以从这方面来着手"},{"start":8114.292,"end":8115.153,"text":"謝謝委員的為我們強化我們政府副審計長的專業獨立來幫忙想方法非常謝謝我們可以從這方面來努力"},{"start":8131.303,"end":8151.276,"text":"是 因为我想这样的做法可能可以减少就是外界对于未来政务副审计长可能又落入政治酬庸他本身不是在方面专业却又来担任这个政务副审计长的一律这是本席的看法我基本上是支持就是审计部是可以设置政务副审计长"},{"start":8151.656,"end":8167.007,"text":"那只是當然現在還有一些問題包含就是說這個政務副審計長未來需不需要經國立法院同意任命因為畢竟審計長您是經國立法院同意任命的那政務副審計長他的資格以及他未來他所要承擔的責任"},{"start":8169.728,"end":8196.426,"text":"當審計長如果說有缺席的時候他必須要來擔任首長職位所以看起來對於政務副審計長的資格的還有同意權的行使似乎也是可以在一起討論是不是要做更嚴謹的考量我想這個部分的話等到我們之後進入到主條審議的時候我們再來談不曉得副審計長您的看法呢"},{"start":8197.102,"end":8220.204,"text":"因為我已經經過立法院的大家的同意非常謝謝大家的認同 支持一個現在要送進立法院的負政務的或者是要立法院審議的大部分都合意住"},{"start":8221.165,"end":8235.631,"text":"包括所有的考試委員監察委員 大法官或者中央委員會的委員這些都合意住我總統 那個憲法裡面我看起來我是"},{"start":8236.831,"end":8238.512,"text":"唯一的嘛是首長制的所以如果我是在那種因為這些都有任期剛剛那個用同意錢的都有任期所以應該不太是用同意錢的形式"},{"start":8254.197,"end":8273.339,"text":"不過這個部分我們之後再來討論了那當然您剛剛講到就是說現在很多的這個獨立機關他們合一制的獨立機關這個相關的成員都有經過立法院同意任命所以這裡面有個議題就是說其實過去也有人在提出說是不是審計部未來應該從首長制改成合一制機關"},{"start":8274.62,"end":8291.55,"text":"您有认同这样子的一个看法吗因为您刚刚也讲说您当过这个审计长可是有时候还是需要比较多不同的意见后来帮您发想一些这样议题这个我不世界各国都有有所长制像美国是所长制像日本是合议制每一个都不一样但是因为牵涉的范围牵涉因为我"},{"start":8304.298,"end":8308.98,"text":"在憲法裡面的對這個還是要憲法裡面的一些規定所以要這是要從長計議什麼是對國家最好因為這不關公共的這是關於國家整個什麼是最好的所以我就說提出來這個想法就是沈記長那看起來你如果說是這個設計良善的話也不反對了沈記長我可以接受主要對國家好對人民好我都福國利民的事情我通通不反對"},{"start":8333.909,"end":8348.06,"text":"接下來還有一個問題就是說因為這次您提出來的法案看起來人事行政總署跟權序部對於就是要調升值等的意見他們是有意見的"},{"start":8348.82,"end":8374.52,"text":"也就是说认为说现在这次审计部提出来的要调增什么兼任八到九职等的职务然后以及其中可以列减任的有多少人等等他们认为说是与行政院及考试院各机关的职务配置原则就是各机关职称机关等职等员额配置原则是有不同的那么您这方面怎么解释呢"},{"start":8375.408,"end":8404.529,"text":"向委员报告我做所长一个方向对说我要做什么一个方向我就交代我的人事质问说你要我唯一给他的说通通要符合目前相关的法治但是看起来现在跟这个整个原额配置原则是不同所以这个部分的话是不是有可能再跟人事行政总统或全序部里面去谈一下是不是你们调真的原额过多"},{"start":8406.73,"end":8418.41,"text":"這個部分我給委員一些概念我檢認的只有占比百分之十幾大宴的預算中心占比百分之六十五"},{"start":8419.878,"end":8436.763,"text":"我的監察院的調查次占比百分之三十幾我如果再調升照這個調升才百分之二十委員你出聲華麗嘛我知道 就是沈機長我跟你說如果是這樣的話我建議您要把相關的數據都"},{"start":8438.883,"end":8467.221,"text":"做清楚你们审计部跟其他单位的比较那这样的话大家比较能够支持你们要调生还有一个部分就是有关于这个事前审计功能不彰的部分本身也要提出来其实是依照现在审计法的规定这个审计部的功能不是只是在事后审计包含在事前或是在整个的预算执行当中你们都可以去派员去做进行相关的审计业务可是看起来你们在事前审计的部分你们有"},{"start":8468.341,"end":8483.34,"text":"這個功能沒有發揮我那時候來第一任的時候來立法院講那個六十監督強化洞察 邁向前瞻邁向前瞻就是事前要疫情在危難還沒有發生之前告訴"},{"start":8484.645,"end":8490.668,"text":"那個行政機關你可能會面臨什麼風險但是事實上我們還是看到還是有很多後來這個重大的弊案產生但是這個系統性風險我用數位審計現在會看到怎麼都會違照出口證明違照進口證明和那個延長文件那一抓"},{"start":8508.468,"end":8524.195,"text":"幾百件幾百件所以這個都是把系統性的風險找好既然你們有這事前審計的功能你們可以發揮這樣的功能然後有這樣的職權其實應該要在這個整個預算的執行當中你們就要"},{"start":8524.898,"end":8547.61,"text":"我们尽量来但是我已不干涉行政部门的行政不要说是发生了一些弊端之后才来做事后审计那当然你们事后审计其实也抓出了不少的弊案那你们这些弊案都有送监察院去只要效能不当或者未进组组我们也会送监察院是不是可以请审计部这里的之后给本席一份资料就是你们送监察院"},{"start":8548.47,"end":8568.613,"text":"调查的最后的处理结果是什么会不会就是你审计部你抓出了一些案子可是送到监察院监察院可能第一个他可能不受理第二个可能他最后处理的这个状况一个认为是没有问题要不然就是处理之后这个处罚是很轻程监察案我们送去他会纠正"},{"start":8569.173,"end":8589.77,"text":"会弹劾我希望就是麻烦审计部可不可以提供给我近十年来就是你们审计部移送给监察院的处理的状况好吧做一个列表好谢谢哪些案子送到监察院然后他做的这个报告好最后我有一个最后一个小问题这114年的总预算"},{"start":8591.251,"end":8612.027,"text":"這個行政院提向這個憲法法院提起申請釋憲那大法官也受理了但是我們知道現在14年總預算案已經執行到尾聲所以如果說現在憲法法院的判決認為當時我們立法院通過的預算可能程序上有瑕疵等等認為有違憲退回到立法院審查那麼請問"},{"start":8614.169,"end":8630.142,"text":"這個已經執行出去的預算之後因為立法院可能重新再審議然後法定預算有浮動的時候審計部這裡會怎麼處理這樣預算的編制權在行政院審議權在立法院"},{"start":8631.685,"end":8655.502,"text":"現在目前包括醫術也通過了追加也通過了大概大肆抵定我們會照如果縣政方面他大概會考慮整個國家不要動盪所以大概我們下來以後我們會照立法院通過的預算所以你的建議是說建議大法官其實對於14年的總預算案那也不要"},{"start":8658.384,"end":8681.691,"text":"再去这个鸡婆啦再去审理受理因为毕竟我们的总预算案都已经执行了嘛然后追加预算也都已经通过了如果说再变动的话它其实会影响很大对不对对这个大法官的专业我觉得这个议题也是很有趣的一个法律上宪法上面的议题如果说大法官还真的针对114年的总预算案做出了违宪的判决"},{"start":8682.691,"end":8692.555,"text":"那麼事後要怎麼樣的去審計我們這個都有方法那可以請審計部請審計長也把你們的現在的這個就是預估可能處理的一些狀況然後提份書面報告給我好嗎不好意思謝謝翁小玲委員那接下來請今天全場最閃亮的賴慧委員"},{"start":8718.241,"end":8740.511,"text":"謝謝主席 請沈記長是 沈記長 我第一次來跟你做對答不知道你就是這麼本土的一個答法非常有趣我不知道 因為我就是這樣答"},{"start":8743.092,"end":8746.174,"text":"我想今天針對我們省紀部的一個修法第14條把省紀官兼處長我們定位在檢任12到13職等這個理由非常簡單就是我們要反映他這個職責上的一個重要"},{"start":8764.364,"end":8786.921,"text":"那事實上就是說我們在審計處的這個組織通則裡頭我們明面有非常清楚就是一等審計處那設置處長一人那由審計官兼任那職位列在第十到十三職等那我們今天看到的修法那事實上"},{"start":8788.272,"end":8804.032,"text":"我有一個很直接的疑問就是說為什麼不直接把審計官監處長定在那個檢認十三指等還有一個就是說為什麼要直接修母法為什麼不要在通則上做修正"},{"start":8805.222,"end":8810.127,"text":"通則 修通則它諸事體大我們要前面因為它涉及我地方做的那個我的通則已經 其實10到13 12到13 13最後都到13所以通則已經講好了我剛剛非常的那個我也是像前戲部說我通則13你列等表為什麼把我列12希望他改一下他說你去修法"},{"start":8831.386,"end":8839.409,"text":"我說祖祖阿修可以不可以他說可以啊我就照這樣啊那就稱之王逸川委員講的就是說你們三個都倒霉吧結果來到這裡講的時候又不行了對啊所以就就是被壓抑很久的那個就會滿腹的氣"},{"start":8849.733,"end":8867.39,"text":"是 所以就是變成就是矛盾非常多對啊 所以就要來這個就有時候像這種事情前戲部的事情法律就規定十三組等你就同意我就好了 事情就解決了還要我來麻煩各位委員有時候也是不好意思"},{"start":8868.228,"end":8883.993,"text":"不好意思不好意思但是為了我損失同仁的一些所以你的合理性跟必要性被挑戰因為所有的人都是三值等所有的人 只有我十二值等那只有我被壓抑"},{"start":8885.475,"end":8899.248,"text":"這個我也不知道前夕部我覺得基本上就是說支持以前那個我損棄部的那個主任大部分都是前夕部派來的這十幾年被壓了十幾年"},{"start":8903.291,"end":8931.286,"text":"所以就是說在野檔也擔心你的酬庸然後我們執政黨的委員其實我們擔心的不是酬庸的問題我不會超過法律要求我的因為我在審計人家我也覺得這個問題不存在那確實是有它的一個需要性謝謝可是你現在問題來了你這個財化法修法了以後你地方的審計人員是不是夠用這個你講到這個這是我的痛"},{"start":8932.727,"end":8947.977,"text":"我一個審計處數只有34個人分成三個科一個科兩個到三個我要去要人要人沒人啊要那個不給啊那怎麼辦我現在只有用聯合審計啊這個單位聯合去啊用這樣的方法主要"},{"start":8954.501,"end":8972.06,"text":"因流停或者他那個人有一點狀況有時候就停擺所以我一直要基本人力我基本人力如果能要到最少我就可以處理一些事情剛剛講的那個才華法下去我們也要讓他的效能能夠發揮那個"},{"start":8976.627,"end":8982.598,"text":"沈記者 你的基本人力是多少達到你的基本人力我希望一個審計室一個審計室 20人我就夠了"},{"start":8986.245,"end":9010.155,"text":"可是你平均啊全台灣平均就是14個人幾乎都是不夠啊財化法你的財源增加了你的審計量也會增加了你看這個財化法從去年12月修法立法院在11月14號三讀修正了以後行政院在11月20號又提出新的版本"},{"start":9010.995,"end":9032.755,"text":"這個新舊版本現在這個是有一番爭吵可是很真實的就是說你地方的審計的人力是不是夠用因為地方政府錢變多了那你查得完嗎那如果查不完的話我們都知道就是說審計部是在國治就是我們國家治理的最後一道防線那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":9034.594,"end":9061.599,"text":"我們現在已經有沒有想到一個變通的方式我現在是要準但是我剛剛向委員報告要準沒有來以前我做聯合審計這兩個單位或者我準備開始做聯合審計你的聯合審計是要跟哪些單位聯合要看像嘉義市嘉義縣它就可以聯合台北縣如果要查淡水的整治 污染我台北市和"},{"start":9062.612,"end":9067.357,"text":"新北市就聯合所以你現在已經在準備了不準備不行因為我們的損棄對國家我有一個就是說能夠協助政府來擅助能夠把這個國家做起來"},{"start":9081.77,"end":9104.089,"text":"可是你看 你這個配套已經出來了那大家更不會給你人力那沒辦法 因為你要坐等坐等人家給我 我事情就沒辦法做所以我也要為成功找方法為成功找方法所以顯然你已經找到方法那這個面向也好像是正確的對 我正在努力 在訴"},{"start":9105.967,"end":9116.782,"text":"好 我想就是說這個攸關審計的制度是不是能真正的發揮功能那當然我們也是祝福那也是潛力的一個支持審計部謝謝 謝謝戴委員 謝謝謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":9122.554,"end":9136.645,"text":"好 謝謝賴會員 委員沈記長 我就盡量跟你講啦你如果有機會講這麼多話 乾脆背背 盡量講沒關係來 接下來請王宏威委員宣導好 謝謝主席 我請我們沈記長請沈記長"},{"start":9151.874,"end":9177.337,"text":"委員好好 沈議長好就是這一次要偵涉我們的政務副審計長當然因為過去大家都覺得我們的審計部針對行政院各項決算基本上都有做到獨立的公正性每一次審計部的報告也受到包含立法院的委員還有外界的一個重視大家比較擔心的是說"},{"start":9179.779,"end":9205.862,"text":"這個政務副審計長他會變成一個酬庸性政治性的任命不過因為我現在我剛才也幫忙連署就是我們翁曉琳委員有特別提到就是加注就是我們政務副審計長他仍然給予他一個他必須具有一定專業的資格那因為就是有關於翁曉琳委員所提供的那個版本您個人也同意嗎"},{"start":9206.787,"end":9217.011,"text":"對 因為大家每個委員都對我的有政務委員以後對我們審計獨立性會產生阻擾那產生阻擾對信任就產生增加不必要的困擾強化政務副審計長的我們都接受的資格只要強化他的"},{"start":9229.555,"end":9232.638,"text":"獨立還有專業性能夠確保他不是空降或者是酬庸或者來當監軍的所以基本上就是翁曉琳委員那個修正動議因為我剛才也連署基本上我們對於偵涉政務副審計長我們就會給予支持只要我們可以秉除我們剛才所說的疑慮另外"},{"start":9254.978,"end":9272.72,"text":"有一個很重要的議題要就教於沈記長就是我們現在不管是明年度的總預算或者行政院送到立法院來的1.25兆的有關於國防的特別預算受到高度的重視"},{"start":9274.001,"end":9281.206,"text":"但是事實上就是我們有關於軍事支出的特別預算這也不是第一次我們來看這個部分是其實大家討論的非常多的就是以我們從109年開始實施的新式戰機採購的特別預算的說出執行情形"},{"start":9296.255,"end":9303.797,"text":"我們可以看到在今年的9月30號為止我們已經實現的預算數已經高達84.2%已經實現的預算數84.2%但是它的問題就是到目前為止預算數執行率高達84%"},{"start":9320.442,"end":9336.611,"text":"但是一架戰機都看不到就是F16V照理說它今年就已經開始陸陸續續交建到明年底應該全數交建完畢這個是一直外界大家很關切的所以像這樣的狀況就是我想在我們審計部去做這個決算的"},{"start":9345.256,"end":9362.73,"text":"檢查的時候 審查的時候一定會對像類似這樣的預算執行你執行就是錢出去貨不來錢出去貨不來你們一定會提出相關的特別提醒或糾正我們再來看"},{"start":9365.168,"end":9388.421,"text":"就是我們在這一次1.25兆裡面的國防預算也就是所謂強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫的特別預算其中有一個非常重要的項目就是有關於無人載具及反制系統就是無人機 可能無人艇"},{"start":9389.909,"end":9413.385,"text":"可是問題是在我們公務預算國防部的公務預算裡面其實過去從很多年度113年度114年度通通都有無人機的採購計畫在公務預算裡面就有但是它的問題所呈現的你可以看到我框出來的以今年度來講"},{"start":9414.858,"end":9440.163,"text":"無人機反制防禦系統的預算執行情況支用率極低不是極低而已是極極極低我為什麼在講呢有的只有1%都不到很多1%不到就代表根本沒有執行根本沒有執行也就是雖然編列了大筆的預算在無人機的採購"},{"start":9441.303,"end":9442.325,"text":"可是它執行率極低以114年度也只有遙控無人機防禦系統 致用率達到10%這已經是最高"},{"start":9453.806,"end":9473.642,"text":"10%是最高 其他的我剛才講非常非常低所以這樣的狀況不是我們今天錢已經花出去但是戰機根本不到或者無人機我們編列大筆預算過去公務預算已經編列大筆預算但是他沒有辦法執行為什麼沒有辦法執行就是他都驗都不過了都沒有辦法通過"},{"start":9477.965,"end":9496.261,"text":"所以他就不敢致用那致用率這麼低然後現在還要去編列1.25兆所以這就是我們今天要針對這些預算今天不是一個單純的說你一定要支持你不支持你就是不支持台灣的國防"},{"start":9498.243,"end":9517.043,"text":"這樣的一個簡化的我覺得這並不是我們去審查預算或者監督預算的一個基本態度我再來看後面過去在我們很多都是討論說我們的特別預算編列太多特別預算有特別預算真的很特別嗎"},{"start":9518.084,"end":9538.817,"text":"可是你現在看喔光是國防特別預算從蔡英文政府到賴清德政府到目前為止我們光是國防特別預算已經這個已編列前面是已經被通過的後面1.25兆是現在送進來已經高達1.8兆已經高達1.8兆之多所以"},{"start":9547.645,"end":9575.52,"text":"沈機長 我要問你的事情是當我們現在不管是公務預算也好或特別預算也好當國防預算這麼這麼的龐大的時候是不是應該去有一個專門的監督機制甚至監督機構因為過去對於特別預算很多的財政學者說什麼叫特別預算呢特別預算就是特別好"},{"start":9576.59,"end":9604.266,"text":"什麼特別好呢 特別好過像這個預算 你敢看立刻說你是不支持國防立刻說你是中共同路人還有一個特別好用這個特別預算一邊好幾千億過去我們前瞻也看到有多少浪費而造成了文子館然後根本沒有效益的事情它讓行政單位非常好用另外一個特別好混"},{"start":9605.707,"end":9624.741,"text":"很好混 而且因為他這好幾年好幾年你還看不到能不能執行他的預算已經匡列在那裡所以我們針對特別預算如此腐爛如此對行政單位如此好用如此好混而我們國防預算如此之高所以"},{"start":9625.521,"end":9647.088,"text":"沈記長就您的一個特別的專業來講我們現在面對不管是公務預算國防金 明年的國防預算就佔了總預算的三分之一然後又有1.25兆的國防特別預算在那裡我們是不是應該先研議一個就是應該成立一個專門的機構監督的機構或者是"},{"start":9651.309,"end":9665.696,"text":"或者是我們要有一個特別的監督機制不然的話我們悶著頭通過這麼多的預算就會形成我剛才所講的預算執行的率很高但是看不到東西來"},{"start":9666.636,"end":9682.595,"text":"因為現在持續率很高 錢花了很多 看不到東西不然就是錢變得很多 但是我花不出去錢變很多 但是對不起 我就是花不出去因為我想可能有些你明明是已經不合格的或者檢驗沒有辦法通過的 我也不敢採購啊所以"},{"start":9686.758,"end":9702.664,"text":"沈記長您覺得我在講就是針對國防預算應該有一個專門監督機制或者一個專門監督機構或一個專門監督小組您個人的看法怎樣好 謝謝委員如果委員相信我我們會回去"},{"start":9703.655,"end":9721.445,"text":"成立這個那個那個查核小組國防預算國防預算小組你就不用再那個我如果相信我選基部所以你選基部有這個能力我有這個能力有這個能力因為我知道你們有很多專案調查第二個剛剛講F16那個我們那個我們"},{"start":9726.268,"end":9750.222,"text":"為什麼80%戰機還沒來 它是經過都在美國做已經它在住工程像我們蓋一個樓房蓋到幾層我們的會計上就可以賺帳所以那是賺帳的 但是還沒有蓋好沒有賺帳的我們剃掉它讓它沒出現 它沒有蓋的我們剃掉它三四百億"},{"start":9751.983,"end":9765.677,"text":"還有他送了太多錢去美國我們說你要停下來他慢了這個我們得扣掉他的錢國防部也照我們的意思你扣了多少錢370幾億"},{"start":9768.8,"end":9783.131,"text":"所以就是你說因為那個貨都沒有進來所以你不要再匯錢了因為進度慢了但是他有在做最近聽到的消息大概明年或者久會就會有戰機進來的所以明年才進來"},{"start":9785.032,"end":9804.22,"text":"但是國防部都不確定明年可以全數到貨油因為這個國際變化多端所以第一個 省計長你的意思說你們省計部已經有針對F16V的這個新式戰機的採購你們已經有專案小組在做有在做追蹤 對在做審查 對"},{"start":9806.161,"end":9833.121,"text":"那未來我剛剛講的不管我們公務預算或特別預算金額這麼龐大你們也會成立專案小組來針對國防預算來這樣子每一個案子來做監督比如說你無人機採購這麼多你就要去監督他如果這個大案給他通過順利通過我們會來負責做方面的審計再來我給委員一個概念"},{"start":9834.282,"end":9848.294,"text":"如果特別預算有一個好處他都把這些事情集在一起他如果散在總預算大家不一定錢冒看不出來所以特別預算有他特別預算的優點"},{"start":9849.595,"end":9866.952,"text":"所以這個給委員做這樣的一個補充因為大家對特別預算我覺得你在這邊已經有點在幫他們講話特別預算特別預算特別好用對於行政單位當然但是特別預算的腐爛事實上會對財政造成極大的負擔特別預算的裁員是哪來的"},{"start":9873.518,"end":9877.182,"text":"大部分都舉債了都是舉債嗎 對所以當我們那麼高的特別預算那就代表我們要舉債這麼多對不對國家的財政慢慢都在好轉我們是希望像每年都能夠超收來補充這些或者是今年沒有超收我都有在追今天很奇怪經濟成長率15年來的新高但是竟然"},{"start":9898.78,"end":9922.38,"text":"沒有超收預算他把稅數加大了這是另外一個問題經濟成長並沒有在稅收裡面完全的顯現謝謝謝謝王鴻威委員那我們先做會議的程序的宣告稍後在吳委員私謠詢答完畢以後我們休息5分鐘我們接下來請你口罩怎麼打開口罩很漂亮"},{"start":9925.868,"end":9941.827,"text":"等一下黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員不在黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員不來就請吳思瑤委員謝謝召委請沈記長請沈記長"},{"start":9944.518,"end":9966.313,"text":"辛苦了 沈記長沈記權之所以存在就是要監督預算的執行就是要審查政府財務的支出就是要來積查財務有沒有不法沈記權的存在也拿來用於考核財務的效能當然就是要看守我們的財政紀律"},{"start":9967.734,"end":9988.921,"text":"所以我手上的這一本就是第二冊第一大冊是分重要的施政議題我手上的這一冊就是依各公務機關你們去作為單位來提出的審核意見我這邊整理出來的是各個部門當然各部會跟地方政府是你們去查查預算執行的大宗佔96%左右"},{"start":9991.682,"end":10018.045,"text":"但其他院計之間也是有啦只是我覺得我一直很好奇喔立法院的預算執行沒有值得特別來好好審查一下審計一下的嗎過去歷屆你們每年的這一本喔對於立法院的審核意見其實都非常少耶一面都不到耶一面都不到耶"},{"start":10019.491,"end":10026.718,"text":"有特別對立法院特別給予什麼樣子的方便還是說立法院的執行都是沒問題"},{"start":10028.822,"end":10052.949,"text":"謝謝委員考慮到這個問題非常謝謝第一個我們損盡因為要損盡剛剛講要二十七十一個人要損盡六百多億我支持人力增加但是我是說全部立法院在我們的評估它是十幾億它大概也沒有大公司三十六億三十六億我比較清楚有三十六億這個"},{"start":10054.87,"end":10082.088,"text":"我们的审计像这一种我们都用电脑在跑就RPA晚上的时候它就在跑有问题我们会通知我们是抓风险性还有它的规模性所以 审计长我懂你的意思你的意思是说你当年会照过有非常清楚的步伐你一定查有执行有清楚的问题你一定会查核但是我并不认为依预算规模来决定你审计的力道"},{"start":10083.588,"end":10109.096,"text":"絕對不應當是這樣對立法院我們來看看我提幾個我看到的我從國會助理到現在自己擔任立委在立法院時間真的加起來前前後後已經20年以上了我常常覺得很奇怪立法院常在換電視我不曉得昭緯辦公室有沒有這個去年新的戒旗換一次今年4月又換一個電視"},{"start":10111.277,"end":10122.129,"text":"然後來換的時候我還非常訝異的跟我們總務處的同仁說有沒有壞掉有沒有壞掉用得很心啊然後就來敲敲打打又換電視"},{"start":10124.229,"end":10147.532,"text":"有沒有過於腐爛啊去年換 今年又換我不曉得為什麼這有沒有執行面的過於浪費呢而我也覺得常常在換電話當然我助理說電話換得沒有電視的頻率高可是呢 汰換話機呢一次都是2900台 3000台喔一次都是7000萬起跳的喔"},{"start":10148.473,"end":10176.019,"text":"那相較於我們立法院在審查其他機關的院計的預算譬如說監察院監察院去年被砍到97% 98%業務費都沒有了他們連買衛生紙都綁手綁腳立法院花錢是大手大腳所以我提點給您不必然有什麼不法只是說有沒有過於浪費或腐爛好 再下一頁我也赫然發現立法院的中心大樓電梯常常壞"},{"start":10177.714,"end":10206.052,"text":"然後呢 該修 確實該修因為這是辦公的需求 更是安全的需求可是呢 我赫然 真的是赫然發現居然立法院去年修電梯是拗行政院買單耶是去請行政院用他的二倍金來支付立法院中心大樓兩千四百 兩千三百五十萬的預算立法院沒有預算嗎為什麼是要行政院買單呢"},{"start":10207.313,"end":10236.333,"text":"這都很怪啊所以我用這個案例告訴您對於立法院的預算的執行也是要叫企鋼 叫補來該審計 該審核我們都要做好嗎好 我們只要會照委員的意思我們就會查該查就查也不是吳思耀叫你查你才查是本來當於你們的職責就要來進行相關的審計下一頁剛剛我們中嘉賓幹事長也提了"},{"start":10237.533,"end":10265.56,"text":"現在有立委提案連公費助理的人數上下限要刪除而且立委可以統籌運用免減拒核銷這個助理費助理費一夕就成了立委個人的小金庫一年自費可以高達780萬剛剛您回答我們嘉賓幹事長你說現在很厲害我們用這個叫做數位審計你一定查得到"},{"start":10266.755,"end":10292.061,"text":"我非常好奇耶免檢據核銷你怎麼查得到你是立委肚子裡的蛔蟲你是潛伏在立委辦公室裡的小帳房嗎我們不要講你怎麼查就從制度面來講如果制度一開始歪了你後面審計人再怎麼辛苦去查核那其他都賣戶期啦賣戶期啦啦所以就這個制度面這個修法要注意"},{"start":10292.541,"end":10293.883,"text":"要注意是不是要好好的嚴肅的不可為就不要強而為之啊這要注意因為這個影響因為這些助理啊已經是整個立法院很重要的一環不要去影響到他們剝奪了他們的工作權"},{"start":10309.023,"end":10336.303,"text":"这个是很重要我同意所以我建议修正您的说法您绝对不可能有这种滔天本领好我同意这个恶法如果修了下去免减拒核销你用什么数位审计都没有办法AI再强也不可能去查到这些立委的小金库怎么滥用怎么滥花所以说审计权就是要严格去审核下一页我非常支持下一页"},{"start":10337.642,"end":10359.428,"text":"你的三個條文我都支持可以正向討論至於你們跟權序部跟人總之間適用條文適用的法律這個可能需要再大家再參詳一下好但是增加你們的副審計長也好或者是你們的這個職等要提高或是人數的提升我都支持我認為都可以正向的討論下一頁"},{"start":10361.206,"end":10385.509,"text":"因為預算連年增加 這個你們都講了從15年來 人數還是336人沒頂沒當但是總預算卻增加了63%基於你剛剛講預算規模當然你可能需要更多的專業人力下一頁而且我支持你未來的專業人力更需求性更大是因為才化法的大災難來了"},{"start":10387.782,"end":10414.157,"text":"分配不正義 事權沒有統一財政沒了紀律 配套又沒有提出之下 下一頁地方財政紀律就很可能大舉的惡化也就是蚊子館越蓋越多加碼非法訂設服的補助會越來越腐爛或者是各項不經濟的支出可能也會越來的越惡化"},{"start":10415.097,"end":10432.233,"text":"因為這個修法本身是權跟錢權沒有統一未來你們審計的人力真的要有滔天本領這個部分你們有什麼因應剛剛有像這個非常謝謝委員這個錢下去"},{"start":10432.893,"end":10446.994,"text":"一定說我要加零食人員 我要加營養午餐我要哪個都做地方租住我們雖然但是這個財政就會慢慢輸口"},{"start":10447.975,"end":10451.318,"text":"財政的豬園使用效率就會變所以我剛剛提出我要一些審計人員如果審計人員行政單位 行政院沒給我準備用聯合審計我支持你們提升人力但是剛剛前一位質詢的王宏威委員認為在國防預算你們可能要組小組"},{"start":10471.058,"end":10489.755,"text":"來嚴格審計國防特別預算的之用我反而認為畢竟國防預算連第一關排案都被擋住了什麼時候通過也未定之天但是被強行表決通過的裁劃法已經造成地方可見的財政紀律的惡化你們倒是應當針對這個地方的"},{"start":10493.078,"end":10508.586,"text":"沒有計劃 錢一堆錢下來了 市權沒有整合 沒有統一這種腐爛的經濟不支出的滋用才是你們目前要鎖定所有的專業的審計人才集中對於地方政府新上路的財化法之後"},{"start":10509.406,"end":10533.581,"text":"你們該做的我們會照委員的意思因為我們在查113年的時候發現我們提出了1777項的審計意見以後可能超過3000項都有可能因為以之前的預算是4165億的增加我們是希望設計一套可以可行可久的制度不會造成財政基地的歐化但是如果沒辦法的話我們自己審計出手"},{"start":10534.542,"end":10547.732,"text":"好啦 審計當自救啦已經看到的地方財政的惡化跟不經濟的支出你們就要未雨綢繆 好不好讓審計局發揮正向的功能好 謝謝好 謝謝我們最美麗的吳思耀委員這樣就休息五分鐘"},{"start":10567.824,"end":10589.991,"text":"請問請問請問請問"},{"start":10597.343,"end":10601.149,"text":"副市長"},{"start":11111.946,"end":11124.389,"text":"好 我們繼續開會那我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間我們繼續進行到討論事項法案審查現在請王一川委員來代理一下好不好好 我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":11142.816,"end":11153.425,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們陳瑞民省記長還有我們權敘部王市長還有任總 任總有來專委好"},{"start":11159.571,"end":11187.067,"text":"沈議長 我看今天去答詢其實是很懇切但是我看很多人都誤會了我們審計部的功能都想說你們是算小的其實你們實在不是算小的你們算在監督的啦 最主要是說監察權 那就罷休啦那我看你們今天在審計部組織法裡面的修法裡面這個倒也不是一個程序的問題是國家財政監督可不可以真正有效的一個問題"},{"start":11188.362,"end":11208.621,"text":"那我想首先要肯定審計部願意追上時代提出智慧的審計還有永續的審計還有韌性的審計這些方向很好這個部分完全支持但是從整個組織架構大調整立法院當然還是要幫人民把關我看今天各"},{"start":11209.929,"end":11222.743,"text":"都有提出它的一個修正案那這個確保這整個修法裡面不是被誤解也不是被誤用你看這個第七條裡面你說最多三位副審計長這個就是說政務 你們也會說政務副首長那我首先講就是說"},{"start":11232.272,"end":11258.154,"text":"全序部你們會有意見仁總這裡面有意見你的意思就是說二級機關內的副首長通常都是定額我要請教今天因為聽審計長講了那麼多全序部師長這邊我倒還沒有聽到你們真正的看法王師長你們對審計部今天提出來的這個正副副審計長你們真正的疑慮到底是什麼你們就說好了"},{"start":11259.575,"end":11278.507,"text":"沒有 那個政務副審計長這一塊情緒部沒有意見因為這個是他們去准用中央行政機關組織基準法那中央行政機關組織基準法是人總這邊負責的他們主管這個法案所以就政務副所長這一塊我們沒有意見你們沒有意見對 尊重那個我來 這樣我聽人總家 你的意見是什麼"},{"start":11285.17,"end":11304.582,"text":"這個部分原則上我們就是基準法適用的部分目前就是依照19條還有38條的設計但是原則上因為省紀長他確實在憲法上104條的部分是由總統提名後立法院同意跟一般的行政機關的二級機關有所不同"},{"start":11305.342,"end":11330.142,"text":"所以如果說這個部分在那個基準法使用上要做一個排除的話可以訓明理由看看它的特殊性質是什麼然後來予以做一個調整這樣 以上所以你的意見是什麼 說白話說白話就是沒有原則上就尊重那個審計部規劃跟立法院決議這樣意見就變一致了但是審計上我必須要問的就是說"},{"start":11331.283,"end":11341.962,"text":"你現在就是說 你說最多三人 當然寫得很彈性很彈性的就是說 你到底你有到底要做什麼事你業務上的曲折 其他的考量 這個倒沒有講清楚"},{"start":11343.8,"end":11367.873,"text":"我成立了我從那個85年到現在那個預算監督規模從11兆跑到了27兆那我的功能從監督要走向洞察走向前瞻這個整個就是說我的功能是要加大的是說要剛剛講的就是要預警"},{"start":11368.573,"end":11383.746,"text":"很好 你說功能這個我贊同但是你這一位的政務副審計長功能你把它定位在哪裡他是對於協助幫忙做政策規劃 審計方向的規劃這一方面來做這個確實是講這個倒是通但是早上我看你聽那麼多委員"},{"start":11393.547,"end":11398.789,"text":"的詢問裡面大家在問的就說不知道有多少人要排隊啊手要穿進去啊不知道要放什麼人啊沒有這個問題啦這個我自己決定的因為我去到那裡這個我都自己決定的沒有 大家那些都誤會啦那個政府要用這個我是看那個四官組組法就兩個一個現在要成立嘛就一個政府可以來做幫忙 整個幫忙"},{"start":11421.578,"end":11429.102,"text":"OK 全序部今天其實他講的報告裡面也講得很清楚就是說你這個非主管的比率高達150%跟其他同級狀況機關差距很大"},{"start":11446.58,"end":11468.274,"text":"所以我剛才審計部 全序部剛才在這裡說你們 我要請教你們當初設計質等到原額的時候到底有沒有忽略了什麼你說會不會引發社會對是不是藉由修法來擴張這樣一個編制 大家這樣想嘛全序部我看他可能就是站在這樣的一個立場對 他有他的主軸是 那全序部 我也不用問你 你的報告很清楚你說你也要回應一下"},{"start":11470.515,"end":11478.1,"text":"因為我心結 心結緣緣是要獨立行使之前你若不是叫做審計官 審計機察 審計員你不可以處理查詢所以我所有的一級主管 都是心結內奸他才可以處理查詢所以你看起來很多人的技術 畢竟機關都結了"},{"start":11498.394,"end":11504.397,"text":"所以我今天才會說心情不太好那就是大家都為我而來我都叫他們要做事情要查公園地 我也抱歉叫我查總園合法 我也不敢不查他叫我做財劃法的評估 我也不敢不評估他叫我做霸凌的 我也是查"},{"start":11525.623,"end":11533.99,"text":"這是對國家有好事 這是給他的功能不要在那裡監督 吃飯的 餐盒的費用 什麼的怕給他比較大的 所以你要做這個你沒有比較高的錢 都用那些我身家的錢 5%到7%的 佔40%多"},{"start":11552.352,"end":11554.358,"text":"那可憐 你要把阿姨拉到時節啊 時節"},{"start":11559.085,"end":11568.931,"text":"這事實就是惡性循環你如果說因為那間單位20幾個他也死了兩三個大家說我也要來死他死了都哭了 都來我這裡要來死了我沒有來這裡給大家吐一點口水對不起我的動員好啦 你說得這麼乾脆對啦 就要說得這麼乾脆我要問你的就是其實你剛講到那個前瞻的問題所謂就是說超前你看這個很顯然不管"},{"start":11588.978,"end":11609.763,"text":"這個後面的整個採劃法會怎麼樣的一個演變但是從明年開始或者說往後開始可以預期的就是地方財政一定大幅增加他說錢一定越來越多如果這塊來講地方在那裡那些人在開錢但是地方的審計處裡面人手又不夠"},{"start":11614.685,"end":11639.358,"text":"所以你這次修法增加了人力你到底有沒有包含整個財劃法你通過以後的風險的一個係數如果說地方未來那個財源增加30%那你地方的審計處查核能力跟不上還是中央錢賣掉變成地方的爛帳那中央又要來背鍋這個對整個不管什麼人進行這個都是一個國家很嚴肅的問題你最後這個問題解釋清楚"},{"start":11642.592,"end":11644.237,"text":"委員會的協議一經建設這我優先衝衝"},{"start":11646.721,"end":11653.263,"text":"我憂心忡忡 所以我今天因為我今天投的這是我的組織中央的我地方是有九人 我的法定是在我的法定下線還有兩百萬的所以我去投三十人的就是因為國務院也要問我這個我沒去投 有投有投就最少我有去投有去投 對委員有交代"},{"start":11672.85,"end":11695.448,"text":"有方法我就來做沒有方法我用其他的辦法要成功一個事情一定還有其他的方法但是人是最基本的這是跟委員做這個報告我也是憂心忡忡修法是給你們更大的權力也是資源但是責任其實也更重譬如說我為地方我為台北市議員起來我非常清楚你們地方審計處長的一個職等"},{"start":11700.732,"end":11706.297,"text":"其實啦 實在是要讓他們加公衛不是只有加薪而已啊不然我一直看那個國局署 六都國局署那些都很無關的那一天起床 你的處長小朋友而已 你就直接坐在那裡 公衛在那裡跟人家有差談不啊你說你這一次其實你把地方的審計處長職等把它拉到檢認12到13我講一句實在的 這個我完全同意啦你自己坐在別的國局 也可以跟他說 來來來"},{"start":11728.294,"end":11731.856,"text":"今天各政黨有很多的一個版本 大家再來協商看看可是給了權力 給了資源 不要忘記"},{"start":11752.909,"end":11759.712,"text":"責任更加重大 好不好好 我們會來努力這個郭委員在財委會我領教過他要給我很多的都不是財務方面的都是國家住住方面的糾結案件 質跟量那一定要同步 要提升一個強大的審計部是一個國家財政健康的基石這個其實都是在為整個國家"},{"start":11781.62,"end":11798.052,"text":"為了整個下一代建立一個更透明更負責的台灣啦好 謝謝 謝謝我們都連行政優良案例都用出來請嘉義官派人去輔導那個趙復原我這就到家服務啊我也用作行政優良案例啊好 嘉義官好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":11811.289,"end":11813.713,"text":"接下來請郭國文委員詢答謝謝主席 有請沈記長請沈記長"},{"start":11828.843,"end":11834.886,"text":"沈議長 我想聽你討論你的心聲可以理解所有的基站的營養40幾%都五到七十等那真的做得很厲害你也要做的東西很多除了原來的審計的賦予的組織功能之外你還加了洞察跟前瞻老實講你的洞察跟前瞻已經漸漸發揮你的賦予的角色跟功能"},{"start":11855.674,"end":11869.403,"text":"但是呢 現實上來說還是要面臨人力的問題嘛你人力的問題呢你剛剛講說這是你的意思增加一個政務的副審計長不會有一個人找來幫你自己找一個人來幫你監軍吧"},{"start":11871.044,"end":11885.04,"text":"不會嘛 不可能的事嘛以前你這重大的部會通常都有三位副首長嘛 不是嗎有審計單位是多重要的我算給你聽 你看你的監督的單位中央所屬的部分有358個機關合計1804個預算單位"},{"start":11890.396,"end":11893.679,"text":"你地方是1742個機關合計是5814個預算單位我全部來算起來你的審計人力講起來只有一個結論嚴重不足 你看嘛一個人監督12.5個單位"},{"start":11909.053,"end":11926.901,"text":"一個人要省計634億的預算規模之大 可想心中有多苦但是現實來說 沈院長你這樣是 你的增加人額要增加到42個你看一看可以到471個"},{"start":11930.875,"end":11955.984,"text":"你即便你的編制緣額增加問題你的預算緣額你有增加嗎要看人家要付好不好對 人總來 人總來 張遠 莊惟今天修法修了老半天組織編制緣額增加看起來很好看但現實上還是要預算緣額增加你有沒有辦法增加"},{"start":11958.616,"end":11976.484,"text":"報告委員因為我們從歷年就是從100年開始其實針對省計部的緣額我們有歷年去就是核給講白一點這樣回答莊惠雄委員一樣講到背就好了重點講一下從100年到現在其實已經有合成65個多65個那今天如果是組織編制員在增加你會不會再多給啊"},{"start":11981.886,"end":12007.384,"text":"是 這個未來就看審計部的業務量還有業務量肯定會增加的對 就是它的業務量跟它的數位審計你相不相信審計長他說原來的功能之外還要加一個洞察還有前瞻是 我們原則上就會是它的業務量能跟它的數位審計推動的相關的一個情況包含運用相關AI技術他剛剛屢屢提起本席要求他做動作席他沒有充滿怨言"},{"start":12008.965,"end":12030.237,"text":"他甘之如也 就是他想要認識嘛要勇於認識 你應該認識多給他一點嘛好 我們再看看他做了什麼事情你請回 來來來 那個沈議長謝謝來看看你的人 我剛剛有幫你講很多話對 謝謝 非常感謝你看事呢 但是呢 我還是會要求啦像我最近要求你那個有關於財務法法的專報你們寫得不錯 你們勇敢點出問題"},{"start":12035.97,"end":12064.935,"text":"整個藍白的財化法的法案當中呢出現了一個第一個分配公式對人口較多商業發展都會較有利而對財政財力相對弱勢的農業線相對不公平城鄉差距啊這個恐難說 恐難縮減啊也簡單的講城鄉差距會越來越大第二個呢 市權會並同這個考量的情況底下恐怕行政效率會越來越低資源會越來越重複會形成浪費以前不足 會以後變浪費啊你用你嘴巴講 重點"},{"start":12066.601,"end":12067.204,"text":"這部法案是不是有問題"},{"start":12070.322,"end":12099.713,"text":"在行政院來看第一個他目前的法案如果行政院要去操作會超過公債法的上限還有這個農業還是不均衡因為整個國家每一個單位每一個縣市我們都要照顧能夠讓大家都能夠均衡發展均衡那個是很重要的一件事情就不會形成像現在薪資大家有的高有的低就形成問題"},{"start":12101.034,"end":12119.492,"text":"如果我們的財政有的高有的低也是一個問題所以這一步剛剛通過的財政收支方法很有問題會惡化城鄉差距會導致行政效能不彰行政效能不彰資源浪費的話也會導致省企部門的業務增加"},{"start":12120.635,"end":12129.159,"text":"是不是會形成惡性循環對不對這個當然是我們的審計壓力會大一點對啊 你審計壓力一定會越來越大啊所以你一定要講出來啊你寫出這個是重要的啊對 我們給委員的報告裡面有寫出來嘛 你有"},{"start":12137.882,"end":12161.17,"text":"你有放膽的寫出來嘛那另外一個部分我要請那個沈記長請你講你的報告當中我還有看到你有另外寫到那約聘人力的下降各縣市沒有超過5%但是我跟你講地方跟中央都一樣都把人力的原本轉化成這個派遣或派遣後轉化成外包變成是優惠的名義來代替人事我跟你講這個呢會讓更基層的"},{"start":12164.071,"end":12167.313,"text":"這些公務從業人員更無過保障這個你應該更大膽了有 我們寫出來臨時人員已經佔比將近50我們要他要面對問題那個總研究法可能要整個你像那個救安局情救安署那個百分之50以上通通是臨時人員派錢的"},{"start":12190.825,"end":12198.83,"text":"要去問 非正常的一個你要用比較強烈的手段來扭曲改變這種扭曲的現象人家已經很亂探我了我已經很練你的任期現在還要5 6年我都努力對不對 你要努力還有那個經濟弱勢更嚴重經濟弱勢的部分那個我上次就說到貧窮線的門檻實在是太高了"},{"start":12213.9,"end":12220.87,"text":"第一個 門檻太高第二個呢 社會救助的平常門檻呢15年都沒有檢討15年都沒有檢討對 我也查出這個你要要求啊 要求消防單位啊這個沒處理啊但是"},{"start":12229.474,"end":12252.226,"text":"行政部門要做這個啊不是中央出問題而已地方也出問題地方出什麼問題所有中低收入戶要來的都嚴格審查審核非常嚴格審核非常嚴格是為什麼為了省錢啊所以說你看看過去五年整個低收入部中低收入少了十萬人"},{"start":12254.687,"end":12282.9,"text":"告訴委員11211你11年112年有11萬筆的這個申請沒有通過告訴委員所以弱勢會變成越弱勢啊貧富不均或者所得分配不均這個是對國家影響很大我會做長期的審計長期的審計我會提出來因為這個能夠把人民的那個大家的那個一些你像服務業和高科技業怎麼能比而且"},{"start":12283.82,"end":12311.741,"text":"整個全台灣最低收入的20%的人30年的財產不增繁減 三個檔喔又減一趴喔 你看我們的經濟成果這是總統講說要把這個經濟成長化為數字 化為實質的幫助嘛你這個角色就很重要啦我再看看喔地方出問題 中央也出問題中央也出什麼問題呢"},{"start":12312.682,"end":12337.143,"text":"你每五年啊這個衛福部應該每五年檢討一次的社福綱領啊13年也都沒有檢討了因為我們現在的財政還不錯所以我比較你講的中間嘛我們既然財政不錯這民進黨執政快10年以來從小英政府當初接手馬英九的時候那個公債的負"},{"start":12338.043,"end":12362.804,"text":"已經接近上限4.5那時候39點幾現在降不到25所以說我們現在國家不是沒有錢是要怎麼用錢的問題所以你應該教這些單位好好用錢還有連院級也出問題不是部我剛剛說地方政府然後部級然後院級也出問題院級出什麼問題行政院的改善所得分配專案小組拜託"},{"start":12365.146,"end":12380.573,"text":"他用一個經濟發展委員會我看過他開一遍會我跟你講我不曉得是你報告寫得不夠好還是寫得不夠好我已經很強硬了你可能還要再寫一份更精進一點更強悍一點 必要時候該送公務委員還有那個貧富不均"},{"start":12388.797,"end":12399.183,"text":"對國家影響很大我們會除息損盡你不是長期 而且要定期不是一年 搞不好要半年我會除息損盡持續請進 加強損盡好不好我這個會加強損盡就對國家太重要了"},{"start":12404.385,"end":12430.034,"text":"我也會好好監督你啦你監督我 我好好監督你啦好 謝謝主席謝謝郭國文委員接下來王世堅委員王世堅 王世堅委員不在吳秉瑞委員 吳秉瑞 吳秉瑞委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在李昆城 李昆城 李昆城委員不在林思敏 林思敏 林思敏委員不在"},{"start":12431.62,"end":12445.501,"text":"我們所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢的時候要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速交個別委員及本聯席會"},{"start":12447.15,"end":12466.501,"text":"那委員羅明才 黃珊珊 林思敏所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來做答覆那現在我們來進行討論事項先請議事人員宣讀提案的條文如果有修正動議也一併宣讀宣讀以後我們馬上來進行討論"},{"start":12469.122,"end":12497.301,"text":"未便於討論審查法案的時候請列席機關代表一致主席台正前方首長席的位置就座好了 現在請宣讀條文討論事項 審查監察院韓情審議審計部組織法第七條第十條及第十四條條文修正草案案第七條審計部至副審計長二至三人輔助審計長處理部務其中一人職務比照檢認第十四職等其餘職務列檢認第十四職等"},{"start":12498.123,"end":12505.113,"text":"第10條出條文內審計稽查等職稱之原額修正為審計85人至115人稽查52人至79人職務均列檢認第8職等至第9職等其中審計35人稽查25人的列檢認第10職等"},{"start":12515.387,"end":12532.581,"text":"至第十一則等外其餘均同現行條文第十四條第一項出手據修正為省紀部於各省直轄市縣市著涉省紀處事掌理各該地方政府及其所屬機關之省紀事項外其餘"},{"start":12533.342,"end":12561.658,"text":"同現行條文 第二項未修正 增訂第三項如下 審計部所屬審計處至處長一人由審計官兼任職務列檢認第十二指等至第十三指等 第四項修正為 除現項規定外 審計處事之組織另以法律定之繼續選讀修正動議部分 修正動議共三件 修正動議一第七條 增訂第二項"},{"start":12563.513,"end":12577.182,"text":"除專定第二項為前項職務比照檢任第十四職等之副審計長應由現任或承認副審計長者擔任外 於同監察院提案提案委員吳宗憲等 專政動議二"},{"start":12580.646,"end":12601.012,"text":"第七條修正為審計部至副審計長二人至三人逐列檢任第十次職等輔助審計長處理務務第十條除審計官修正為十二人至十八人主任秘書一人後增列得由審計官兼任"},{"start":12601.812,"end":12627.877,"text":"及審計修正為95人至125人稽查修正為60人至87人外與同監察院提案第14條除第三項莫具修正為職務列檢任第13職等外與同監察院提案提案人李燕秀等孫振東一三"},{"start":12628.837,"end":12652.239,"text":"第七條說證為審計部至證物副審計長一人職務比照檢認第十四職等常務副審計長一至二人職務列檢認第十四職等輔助審計長處理部務請向證物副審計長資格適用第二條第一款第二款之規定提案人翁曉琳等宣讀完畢"},{"start":12655.233,"end":12671.583,"text":"好條文已經宣讀完畢現在進行討論我們審查監察院函請審議審計部組織法第7條第10條第14條條文修正草案那請問在場委員本案是否要進行大體討論或者直接進行主條審查我看就主條了好"},{"start":12683.912,"end":12705.938,"text":"我們審查審計部組織法第七條第十條十四條修正草案我們現在繼續進行逐條討論第七條有監察院的提案還有吳宗憲委員等三人所提修正動議李燕秀等三人所提修正動議翁曉琳委員等四人所提修正動議"},{"start":12718.28,"end":12724.373,"text":"我看在場只有翁委員你在翁委員你是不是提案人先表達一下你的意見"},{"start":12725.486,"end":12744.415,"text":"好 那麼這次本席的提案基本上我是大家發現我是支持就是審計部這裡所希望能夠增設這個政務的副審計長這樣的一個方向但是前提是他必須要是專業的而且曾經擔任過審計官所以在"},{"start":12747.256,"end":12761.241,"text":"我提出的修正動議裡面其實就是把現在的審計部組織法裡面任用審計長的資格的前兩款然後放在未來副審計長政務副審計長也必須要符合就曾經擔任過審計長或副審計長或是審計官9年以上表現良好的才可以擔任政務的副審計長那這個部分其實之前也跟"},{"start":12773.065,"end":12781.728,"text":"審計長這裡也溝通過了那他基本上也同意我的這樣的修法那麼還有就是說為什麼這裡講到政務副審計長的這個用詞因為現在就是在其他的組織法裡面我們有什麼政務次長然後常務次長前面都會加一個政務所以我的這個修法就是把政務副審計長跟常務副審計長就把它講得清楚所以常務副審計長就一到兩人政務副審計長就是一人"},{"start":12805.308,"end":12818.475,"text":"請機關來做說明翁委員的修正動議我現在先問省紀長你們機關的看法然後再請全序部來做意見的表達"},{"start":12819.375,"end":12847.301,"text":"我們尊重翁委員他第一個那個第一項體力上現在的體力都這樣第二個他這個可以要求的專業或者是獨立或者都強化了強化了可以度一些大家的一些餘力所以我非常認同翁委員的這個提案尊重翁委員的全序部呢"},{"start":12853.968,"end":12876.494,"text":"現在是講那個處長那一塊修正動議修正動議啦 現在的翁委員的修正動議現在審計 翁委員修正動議政府那一塊我們尊重那個大案決議政府副審計長我們尊重大案決議因為這個涉及到的是中央行政機關組織基金網人種的前線跟大案的一個審議前則"},{"start":12881.415,"end":12897.705,"text":"我現在是沈記長 現在尊重翁委員的修正動議嘛我當然要問問你們幾權序部啊修正動議如果這樣的話 我們也可以同意啦因為那個是讓他比較專業 比較獨立一點所以你們兩個機關全部都同意囉是那第七條 在場委員還有沒有其他的意見"},{"start":12905.062,"end":12930.514,"text":"我沒有意見只要請全序部再次確定因為翁委員的修正動議把人數然後相關工作分配然後職等都寫得非常清楚甚至是副審計長的任用資格你要確定喔要確定喔拜託再三確定你剛剛好像沒有你們都沒意見我就要找翁委員對 你看他還有寫到資格喔適用第二條第一款第二款制規定喔"},{"start":12935.515,"end":12941.898,"text":"這一個部分我們尊重對 副省紀長這一塊我們認為沒問題啦OK 好 那就第七條就到翁小林委員的修正動議通過啦 好不好 來"},{"start":12951.492,"end":12977.127,"text":"接下來我們看第十條就是有監察院的提案還有李彥秀委員等三人所提的修正動議那第十條 哇 不來呢那就請機關來做說明一下我們同意李彥秀的動議他還是 因為我本來估一到三年 我都需要現在他動到五年因為這個"},{"start":12981.411,"end":13000.398,"text":"人種剛剛那個郭委員有問他他已經諸無其處不一定給我們人但是這個我們在這個法治上已經到空間已經很小了那就我們就照李委員的建議意見來努力全區部你沒意見 人種"},{"start":13011.636,"end":13032.762,"text":"您有意見嗎他不會給我意見因為提案委員不在所以沒有辦法提他的因為他的條文就寫在這個地方要請你們表達那主席我先發問了沒關係 讓他講一下看你有要講嗎原則上第10條的部分人總這邊尊重您哪個尊重 來 在場委員"},{"start":13034.345,"end":13043.066,"text":"我不是李燕修委員拜託的啦但是我們來看一下李委員的修正動議裡面他說主任秘書一人得由審計官兼任"},{"start":13044.296,"end":13067.791,"text":"這個也OK嗎 沈機長OK 因為我的倫理不足我通通把行政倫理調來做審計人力所以我的主任秘書是不是審計官你不用審計機關他不能查證 不能看什麼報告他只能幫我做一些行政的所以我現在就用審計官去檢因為這個有的時候倫理不足各方想方設法"},{"start":13068.979,"end":13095.874,"text":"你這樣 我知道陳委員的意思就是說你這樣會不會比較低階的去監政高階他他也都守護主席 審計官也守護主席但是審計官要查帳 要看審核報告所以他已經擾入我們因為我們所有的公司要經過主任秘書他如果行政的 他只負責行政我現在要他負責包括審計的A5你有沒有夠準來 全區部"},{"start":13099.917,"end":13123.867,"text":"他現在是要照李彥秀委員的修正動議他把那個檢認那一塊原先他們你的部分已經不列進來那只增加那個鑑認職務那鑑認職務總共增加18個就這一塊 前續部尊重好 您也尊重喔來 還有其他委員有沒有什麼看法要不然要叫李彥秀委員的修正動議過去喔"},{"start":13125.216,"end":13130.391,"text":"可以 第10條我們就按照李恩秀等三人所提的修正動議通過"},{"start":13131.736,"end":13156.95,"text":"來接下來我們審第十四條修正動議就是監察院提案跟研修等三人所提的修正動議來 現在沒來就都請機關先表達看法本來是所有到十三他是照現在的體制都改成十三就是符合現在所有的機關不會比別人矮一等這個都敬表尊重好了聽好了 全區部"},{"start":13160.392,"end":13185.694,"text":"因為這一塊審計處是他的下屬機關所以在這個地方我們認為如果要有審計官兼任那個植物類等要嘛就拿掉要嘛就拿掉回到原先的那個組織通則那邊的規定12子等去處理將來再去修那邊因為他目前的審計官是列12那在這個地方審計處列12到13他就他跟其他機關"},{"start":13187.976,"end":13207.177,"text":"來比較是橫平不過如果讓他這樣規定下去變成審計部有13最高類等到13的一個植物跟部會的層級會不橫平所以我們是建議如果要這樣處理的話要嘛就是中間有審計官兼任這部分拿掉要嘛就植物類等拿掉"},{"start":13209.223,"end":13211.729,"text":"哇 你們兩個都很順眼等一下 沒關係在場我也沒什麼其他不同看法這樣好 你們兩個先完結這樣 我問一個"},{"start":13219.662,"end":13245.736,"text":"因為我現在通常十三點我現在想這個 我本來是說我剛才有說 跟前市部說我就發到十三點 你看叫我用列登表 用十二點他說你去想法 你要怎麼想法 我都準備了我就上來這裡改做十二跟十三現在所有的 剛剛大家委員都支持這是地方都做十三點"},{"start":13247.142,"end":13260.129,"text":"中央的部會都13點 只有我才13點但是前四部都沒有給我13點用一個行政命令給我打下來所以我剛才心情很壞就是這樣"},{"start":13262.199,"end":13269.025,"text":"他現在也 下面補充說的剛才我跟他說 我去看他們補充 他們說好好好這是合規定 他的公文來也說這是合規定他的公文也說這是合規定沒有啦 他的公文我們沒看到啦補充也沒來 你們兩個沒辦法對峙你知道嗎 沒准算啦"},{"start":13283.979,"end":13299.58,"text":"沒有啦 我公文給你我判斷不出你跟部長沒有來的部長裡面誰講的是真的啊因為你們現在意見是看公文啦 看公文這樣來 全劇部就是說當初可能那個部長這邊跟我們部長談的沒有講到兼任那一塊"},{"start":13300.981,"end":13317.704,"text":"我堅信就是我剛才有說的我堅信是這樣 你要叫我的心結我是我的心結 我要說心結我嫌那是他都要處理炒燒 要不然那個廠長不能處理炒燒你們兩個不用吵 我問那個總緣額的人總人總來 人總人總你們表達一下看法 不然我要處理了好 OK 人總你們的看法 你對這個的看法"},{"start":13329.402,"end":13350.681,"text":"這個涉及到官職官規啦所以我們原則上今天你代理來就最大的因為代表機關是主席還有各位委員原則上因為這個涉及到官職官規啦所以我們也是尊重那個全局部意見跟大院的決議好啦 那我聽來 翁委員"},{"start":13352.47,"end":13375.592,"text":"因為剛剛全序部所提的問題我不是很了解你的意思講說要就是把審計官兼任這一句刪掉然後只保留職務列檢任第12到第13值等是嗎或者是說直接寫說是自處長一人由審計官兼任然後就不列值等"},{"start":13379.141,"end":13393.346,"text":"這個為什麼會有這樣子的它的本質本質審計官還是列12指等而已所以簡單來說就是你們基本上是不太同意就是審計處的處長列為13指等 是嗎"},{"start":13399.244,"end":13407.894,"text":"這一塊我們是可以同意他如果再修那個組織通則那就沒問題不過因為他修在這個地方變成是感覺上變成是審計部的一個內部職務"},{"start":13410.712,"end":13436.998,"text":"所以你们只是认为讲说他的这个修法他的放的位置可能不是太适合但是如果真的修在这法律里面也没有什么关系因为你的大方向重点是一样只是你认为说其实不见得一定要修法修组织通则就可以了所以基本上就是你们还是认为说其实他这个审计处的处长可以列为13执政的这件事情是没有问题的"},{"start":13437.498,"end":13451.839,"text":"委員可以補充報告一下嗎因為現在中央二級機關就是司處長這些職務主任秘書都是12職等而已中央三級機關的首長有13職等所以我們要強調的是說處長可以但是是三級機關的首長13職等"},{"start":13455.566,"end":13480.503,"text":"不會是審計官來兼這個處長列13職等那接下來我想請教審計長就是如果說現在按照學習部的建議的話就是如果我們的條文就直接寫審計部所屬審計處自處長一人職務列檢認第12到第13職等把審計官兼任的這個詞拿掉那審計處處長有可能由非審計官來擔任嗎"},{"start":13482.344,"end":13485.889,"text":"在過去的下來的慣例裡面有沒有說審計處的處長是由非審計官來擔任委員這樣的建議我主要"},{"start":13491.927,"end":13513.152,"text":"那個 主要能通過啊方法我都沒意見啦其實我的法已經十三指等了啦那他們就卡來卡去 卡了我我也不知道如何是好啦啊他們都 只是主要 沒關係 沈記處處長我只想知道就是說是現在的沈記處處長 我不知道有送去以後 不行不行 你是只好這樣我聽得懂啊現在的沈記處處長有沒有可能會由非沈記官來擔任"},{"start":13518.973,"end":13536.975,"text":"我們一定會派審計官因為他要附著查賬謝謝翁委員這樣啦 那個審計長提案委員 李燕秀委員也現在到場了你們現在準備一下參照這麼多委員的意見你們研擬相關的文字提出來我今天給你處理"},{"start":13539.617,"end":13554.368,"text":"我們接下來請提案委員李燕秀委員非常感謝主席我讓大家可以好好吃個便當所以我儘速簡短感謝大家第十條的部分遵照我的版本通過第十四條的部分看起來有機會有共識"},{"start":13556.649,"end":13573.326,"text":"我還是要再一次強調謝謝主席給我講一兩分鐘的話我還是認為在國外主計單位在監察院底下都是一個獨立單位而且它的層級不能太低當然更重要的是維持監察審計的獨立"},{"start":13575.568,"end":13586.631,"text":"讓我們所有人民可以信服信任這樣的一個單位是很重要的另外如果派一個既然我們的審計長是由總統提名立法院同意的我們怎麼會在他底下派一個政務用的第七條副審計長是政務任用的"},{"start":13596.193,"end":13615.828,"text":"這就會讓外界我們今天在討論的不是是一個組織草案的調整政黨都會輪替但我們希望我們這個組織是大家可以人民可以信任所以我一直認為用政務派的副審計長這個邏輯是很怪的派一個政務官"},{"start":13616.909,"end":13633.857,"text":"在裡面督軍這個邏輯實在是未來如何去維持這個審計處的審計單位的獨立性我知道啦但是我還是要說我還是認為我有不同的意見跟看法所以"},{"start":13635.358,"end":13660.959,"text":"即便最後過了當然這個還有朝野協商我也還會再去講冷凍期間我還是可以去表達我的意見但是我覺得審計長未來如何我不知道接下來會派的是誰如果萬一是通過的話你如何去維持你的你底下有這麼多的人有這麼多的事項如何去維持每一個案件審計單位的獨立性 客觀性 中立性這個就是很大的問題"},{"start":13662.793,"end":13666.596,"text":"那個謝謝委員大家都懷疑但是翁委員已經幫我們解這個問題我們是強化了那個審計還有那個獨立還有專業所以那個足夠限定但是常務任用也是一樣啊也是可以維持這樣的功能啊全部都常務任用也是可以啊"},{"start":13683.706,"end":13700.324,"text":"政務任用難免就是我是行政院總統這邊派下來的行政院派下來的我怎麼好去檢討我的國防部我的環境部我的勞動部可以接受我就接受我就是讓事情順就好了意思說常務就對了"},{"start":13702.947,"end":13705.189,"text":"謝謝李燕秀委員的發言我先來處理一下在第14條條文修正文字提出之前我們先來處理幾個附帶決議一共有兩案之後再回頭來處理第14條"},{"start":13728.07,"end":13733.279,"text":"那這兩案請一併宣讀宣讀以後我們再主案來進行處理請宣讀負擔決議"},{"start":13738.154,"end":13763.566,"text":"我國中央政府採五權五權分立制度審計權與彈劾糾舉等權同為監察權之一審計職權由審計機關行使之未讓審計人依法獨立行使其審計職權不受干涉原此副審計長之任用資格均因以現任審計官為優先考量以確立審計權之獨立性提案委員李燕秀等人附帶決議二"},{"start":13765.233,"end":13786.992,"text":"有鉴于今年政府收支预算规模持续迅速扩张审计部所审和监督预算收支金额从85年度11兆3697亿余元至114年已增长至27兆5184亿余元审计业务明显"},{"start":13789.798,"end":13809.693,"text":"預區繁重為地方審計處是現有預算人力大多不足以不足法定下限若未能同步即時補足審計相關人力恐無法遵應業務需求善盡監督職能原則要求行政院人事行政總處統籌積極協助與三年內分別就6個直轄市審計處增給預算員的12人15個縣市審計室增給預算員的75人"},{"start":13818.98,"end":13843.434,"text":"以提升地方審計量能 善盡審計職責提案委員 李燕秀等人 宣讀完畢好 附帶決議第一案這寫得很清楚啦但是還是要問一下提案委員要不要再補充說明好 如果沒有補充說明的話我們針對附帶決議請問機關有沒有其他意見或者說明我們尊重好 尊重 那就照附帶決議第一案的通過啦"},{"start":13844.844,"end":13848.968,"text":"第二案 第一案我們就召案通過第二案機關有沒有意見或者文字修正來來來"},{"start":13865.792,"end":13883.12,"text":"是主席還有提案委員那個任總這邊表達一下就是附帶決議第二案的部分因為涉及到預算員的增加部分那第一個是那個總緣分法是那個監察院也是在總緣分法的適用範圍然後再加上"},{"start":13884.22,"end":13906.841,"text":"審計部其實是監察院還有立法院跟行政院之間跨院級之間的協調所以是不是可以容我們就是說在這個那個附帶決議的部分就是請我們人事行政總署統籌協助然後針對他的人力的部分來積極的來協助就是不要直接限定那個年份跟人數這樣子跟審議的那個"},{"start":13909.443,"end":13926.995,"text":"的結果,而且這個還要到院長的部分,可能不是好啦,那你擬一下修正文字好不好是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,"},{"start":13945.44,"end":13958.283,"text":"我不知道省市長怎麼搞的,好像有辦法把你們藍白都搞定,那功率有夠高的那就是對你們比較好,對我們不好啦"},{"start":13973.301,"end":13998.017,"text":"所以你們不要周圍都過了全部都嘗試了嗎大家都有沒有沒有沒有 可是我們剛剛已經過囉過了 我知道我是剛過 而且我後會委員他們自己支持喔對啊 我們剛剛是已經過了你這樣的話 變成還要再重新翻看對對對"},{"start":14033.565,"end":14061.734,"text":"這樣啦 我今天盡量都教你們的藝術尊重機關啦大家也 要不然這個 我們就叫那個沈機長 你看你教你們的藝術啦 好不好文字你們擬出來沒有祝沈機關兼處長一人 主務列檢任第十三職等這個也和前系部討論過了"},{"start":14070.686,"end":14074.73,"text":"好 這樣條文第七條當然不行 第七條已經宣告過了我現在是在說修正動議的部分14條啦 我說14條啦14條"},{"start":14101.212,"end":14105.154,"text":"來 印給大家啦 你們都看過了喔 可以 好 來 印給大家現在要說第七條 第七條就通過了 現在剛好都宣告啊那個我已經宣告了啦"},{"start":14129.838,"end":14133.114,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":14165.693,"end":14167.954,"text":"謝謝你啦 謝謝你啦你交代的事情我都有做"},{"start":14179.448,"end":14198.88,"text":"哪個立法院最和諧的一天把那個修正條文印出來那給在場的委員一個人一份"},{"start":14201.623,"end":14207.808,"text":"如果文字大家看完沒有問題的話就請大家簽一下在場委員簽一下畫押了"},{"start":14294.614,"end":14320.16,"text":"好 你不要開槓 修正文字快點給我好 這樣大家簽名 好不好因為他用審計官兼處長一人前面就是說那個職務已經是審計處的人而不再是審計部的人我聽懂了"},{"start":14323.993,"end":14330.558,"text":"沒關係啦 這樣好了啦 他們說好了就好了啦也不要讓全序部覺得他今天轉播器械這樣也不好啦人家他也有堅持啦剛剛我們其實已經已經放掉一塊本來私下"},{"start":14337.935,"end":14366.934,"text":"市下那個審計處審計部這邊是跟我們講那個檢認輝主管那一塊是不修不過看起來今天是會上市額外再去加鑑認的年額除了他們原先提案以外額外再加鑑認年額那檢認的年額會照他們原先的提案通過那一塊已經是增加出來了那當然他那個鑑認年額鑑認年額因為他都沒有增加科長的年額也就是說檢輝他一定到150了"},{"start":14368.736,"end":14380.632,"text":"減灰的比例已經到150這塊其實就會超出現有的那個配置比例所以我不能跟你說我都要每一個機關都要你們表達意見因為剛剛審計部是講說那一塊不修啊"},{"start":14386.914,"end":14411.103,"text":"我的 我是向委員報告我的科長也要 因為我的徵用條例裡面一定都要用審計監因為他要查賬 他要帶人出去查賬所以 因為這是我的特質因為用我的特質 特性用我的特性去拿到行政部門用那個來處理就很困難"},{"start":14415.359,"end":14415.819,"text":"第四條 第三項"},{"start":14444.116,"end":14458.003,"text":"修正為審計部所屬審計處自審計官兼處長一人職務列檢任第十三職等案人翁曉琳、李燕秀、王逸川、陳培宇宣讀完畢"},{"start":14461.997,"end":14473.473,"text":"好文字修正有沒有意見如果沒有的話我們就依討論或修正的文字通過複代決議第二案文字修正連結來不會"},{"start":14481.533,"end":14483.735,"text":"我叫人事總署的你叫人事總署的今天各位有堅持"},{"start":14501.408,"end":14513.872,"text":"那附帶決議二有鑒於近年政府收支預算規模持續迅速擴張 審計部所審核監督預算收支金額從85年度11兆3697億餘元至114年已增長至27兆5184億餘元 審計業務明顯區"},{"start":14526.156,"end":14543.016,"text":"越區繁重為地方審計處是現有預算能力大多不足法定下限若未能同步及時補足審計相關能力恐無法支應業務需求善盡監督職能原此要求行政院人事行政總處統籌積極協助"},{"start":14546.099,"end":14558.903,"text":"並就直轄市審計處及縣市審計室業務實際需要及推動數位審計情況核實審議事實增加合理能力以提升地方審計能量 善盡審計職責"},{"start":14563.22,"end":14575.788,"text":"你那些文字只要你一個人唸,我們都沒看到,好啦,你附帶決議,你若不是這麼遵守的話,就照這樣給過,好啦,但是你們以後不要這樣,你們要唸,每一個人要有一份,好,這樣,當然啦,"},{"start":14585.983,"end":14594.571,"text":"沒有啦,那個啦,印出來啦,看印出來跟你黏的有一樣,總是要確認嘛,對不對,這是最基本的嘛,要不然你們吃快點看我"},{"start":14603.65,"end":14624.878,"text":"慢慢讓大家會順今天省紀長這邊你們提出來 監察院提出了草案在場委員或者各政黨也提出修正案 經過大家的討論機關代表不同的意見 攻防反駁各有堅持 各有底線 然後折衝"},{"start":14626.259,"end":14627.159,"text":"文字給各位委員的嗎"},{"start":14656.32,"end":14666.799,"text":"來 各位委員請看附帶決議二的修正文字如果沒有意見的話名字再簽一下"},{"start":14668.357,"end":14691.145,"text":"這邊的話有一點點小小的文字的修正就是說最後的這個並就職銷市審計處及縣市審計是業務實際需要及推動數位什麼情況然後逐年核實審議增加人力增加合理人意"},{"start":14692.15,"end":14705.153,"text":"就是多增加逐年核實啦要逐年去核實審議的增加合理的人力可以嗎這樣 加下去 再訂銀 再訂簽好 好 好好 OK來 趕快逐年核實審議可以啊 總是要文字要加進去逐年核實審議這怎麼增加我要等你 加下去"},{"start":14719.096,"end":14719.496,"text":"各位聽清楚嗎?"},{"start":14766.889,"end":14766.989,"text":"謝謝各位"},{"start":14772.406,"end":14774.026,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":14809.873,"end":14810.574,"text":"好 多歡迎"},{"start":14826.612,"end":14831.094,"text":"那附帶決議二就按照修正文字通過本案逐條均已處理完畢來做以下的宣告本案審查完畢拟據審查報告提請院會來公決本案是我交由黨團協商"},{"start":14851.599,"end":14855.981,"text":"本案就不需交付黨團協商那院會討論的時候由莊昭偉委員瑞雄出席說明附帶決議兩項一併提報院會處理那條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席跟議事人員來做整理"},{"start":14872.93,"end":14881.942,"text":"那議程所列的討論事項我們都已經處理完畢本次會議非常順利進行到此結束現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"17109","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17109","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e9c8519356ec592c2737d68251c87da44d5e67b2ed5162375e9468d9dd35f82dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「財政收支劃分法」7案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員郭國文等17人、委員賴瑞隆等19人、委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n(二)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等26人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例」2案：（僅詢答）\n(一)本院委員郭國文等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n 【12月10日及11日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-10","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-10T08:34:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T12:28:00+08:00","duration":14006,"影片長度":"03:53:26","委員發言時間":"08:34:34 - 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本院臺灣民眾黨團擬據使用牌照稅法第5條及第7條條文修正草案案3 委員廖先祥等17人擬據使用牌照稅法第5條及第18條條文修正草案案4 委員牛許廷等17人擬據委員鍾嘉斌等16人擬據使用牌照稅法第7條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1722.755,"end":1743.961,"text":"5 委員廖偉祥等17人擬拒使用牌照稅法第7條及第38條條文修正草案案2 審查使用牌照稅法17案1 本院委員陳樹岳等21人委員吳立華等16人委員馬洋君等16人委員羅美玲等18人委員寬恆等17人委員葉燕琴等17人委員葉燕姿等20人委員徐富奎等17人委員陳昌明等16人"},{"start":1744.341,"end":1762.331,"text":"委員丁學中等18人 委員張志倫 委員徐巧熙等23人委員外美林等18人 委員洪茉凱等19人委員翁曉林等18人 委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具使用牌照稅法第5條條文修正草案等16案 二委員林思明等23人擬具使用牌照稅法第7條條文修正草案"},{"start":1763.291,"end":1791.472,"text":"決議一審查結果第五條保留送院會處理通過附帶決議一項二行政行政審議本院委員邱振均等19人委員陳湯米等18人委員陸斌財等20人委員廖偉湘等19人委員楊秋英等27人委員徐宇震等22人委員邱樂華等17人委員林俊憲等26人委員王宏偉等19人委員彥秀等16人委員朱新泉等18人委員徐欣穎等24人委員郭玉琴等19人委員王美惠等19人委員李坤臣等18人委員盧洛廷惠等17人"},{"start":1791.952,"end":1818.676,"text":"委員郭國文等十八人委員佩玉等十七人委員葛如君等十六人委員沈發輝等十七人委員林思明等二十二人委員賴世寶等二十五人委員黃建華等二十人委員陳樹業等二十一人委員吳立華等十六人委員馬文君等十六人委員羅美玲等十八人委員寬恆等十七人委員林月琴等十七人委員葉延之等二十人委員徐富奎等十七人委員陳昌明等十六人委員丁學忠等十八人委員張志倫等十七人委員徐巧興等二十三人"},{"start":1819.136,"end":1845.596,"text":"委員外邁林等18人 委員洪茉凱等19人委員翁曉琳等18人 委員陳俊銘等20人分別領據使用牌照稅法第5條條文修正草案等事實案及委員賴世寶等7人 委員林思明等4人所提使用牌照稅法第5條條文修正動議審查完均並案領據審查報告提報院會討論 院會討論前需交給黨團寫上院會討論時由林昭吉委員思明補充說明"},{"start":1846.056,"end":1870.415,"text":"三 臺灣民眾黨團已據使用牌照稅法第五條及第七條條文修正草案案委員廖先祥等17人已據使用牌照稅法第五條及第38條條文修正草案案委員劉許廷等17人委員鍾嘉斌等16人委員林詩敏等23人分別已據使用牌照稅法第七條條文修正草案案等三案委員廖偉祥等17人已據使用牌照稅法第七條及第38條條文修正草案案均則期繼續審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1876.198,"end":1885.111,"text":"請問各位委員對議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄有異議好 議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀今日議程"},{"start":1886.318,"end":1909.776,"text":"1 审查财政收支划分法7案今日仅询答1 本院委员郭国文等17人委员赖瑞荣等19人委员赖瑞荣等17人分别拟据财政收支划分法部分条文修正草案等3案2 委员陈玉珍等19人拟据财政收支划分法第8条条文修正草案案3 委员邱毅英等26人拟据财政收支划分法第16条之1条文修正草案案"},{"start":1910.576,"end":1935.949,"text":"4.委員蔡玉儀等17人擬具財政收支劃分法第16條之一及第30條條文修正草案案5.委員陳玉珍等24人擬具財政收支劃分法第30條條文修正草案案2.審查國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例二案今日僅詢答1.本院委員郭國文等18人擬具國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第4條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1936.957,"end":1944.921,"text":"案二委員李昆城等18人女巨國家信訪安定基金設置及管理條例第四條及第五條條文修正草案案宣讀完畢好我先介紹這個在場的委員吳秉瑞委員林德福委員邱益穎委員張祺凱委員"},{"start":1967.574,"end":1992.893,"text":"好 我來介紹今天的與會的官員財政部部長 莊翠雲法制處處長 姚瑩國庫署署長 陳柏成賦稅署署長 宋秀玲官務署副署長 蘇淑珍國有財產署署長 曾國基財政資訊中心主任 張文希"},{"start":1995.308,"end":2022.657,"text":"國家金融安地基金管理委員會執行秘書阮清華次長行政院主計總署陳慧娟副主計長公務預算處處長徐永毅國家發展委員會經濟發展處專門委員劉齊悅經濟部產業發展署副署長周宇新水利署副總工程師周文祥"},{"start":2025.455,"end":2052.274,"text":"地質調查及礦業管理中心專門委員李政鴻農業部政務次長黃昭清會計處副署長黃文齊綜合規劃司司長蔡巧蓮農民輔導司檢任計政王東良志願永續利用司檢任計政林永炎農糧署副署長黃昭新"},{"start":2054.534,"end":2082.321,"text":"林業及自然保育署副署長廖一光農村發展及水土保持署組長黃政權環境部大氣環環境司檢任計政呂承祥內政部地政司專門委員何俊達交通部會計處處長黃鴻文中華郵政股份有限公司副主任委員王婉如"},{"start":2084.079,"end":2109.839,"text":"劳动部劳动基金运用局局长苏玉清刑事部公务人员退休抚恤基金管理局局长陈明贤财务组组长吕明珠法务部法治司参事廖江宪好"},{"start":2111.598,"end":2131.989,"text":"今日我們審查財政收支劃分法七案還有審查國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例兩案請詢答我們先請提案委員說明提案要旨後再請財政部莊部長行政院主計總處陳副主計長慧娟回應委員提案內容"},{"start":2133.33,"end":2152.066,"text":"我們每位委員的提案說明三分鐘我們先請郭國文委員說明提案要旨郭國文委員郭國文委員不在接下來請陳玉珍委員說明提案要旨陳玉珍委員陳玉珍委員不在場接下來"},{"start":2153.818,"end":2168.708,"text":"請李坤成委員說明提案要旨沒關係 我就等一下在一起再說明就可以了接下來請賴瑞榮委員說明提案要旨賴瑞榮委員不在場接下來請邱奕穎委員說明提案要旨"},{"start":2179.215,"end":2206.342,"text":"主席各位同仁各位列席的官員大家早安本席針對現行的財政收支劃分法第16條之一本席提出了修正的版本那我想這一次的財化法修正的修法的核心精神我想不應該只是在單純的搶錢而是應該要矯正結構失衡跟落實負擔正義"},{"start":2207.976,"end":2230.863,"text":"過去的一年經過國民黨民眾黨藍白聯手二修數次的才化法版本已經過度偏重人口與盈利事業營業額的指標這樣的分配邏輯導致了兩個嚴重性的結構性問題第一個是富者越富忽視了外部的成本"},{"start":2231.963,"end":2246.621,"text":"北部人口稠密企業總部群聚享有分配的優勢而中南部承擔了重工業的污染發電空污以及糧食生產的責任卻因人口老化與產業的結構長期處於分配的劣勢"},{"start":2250.365,"end":2277.844,"text":"第二忽视了服务员广大的治理成本就举高雄为例高雄市的土地面积是台北市的十倍以上基础建设如道路水利的维护成本极高但是现行的公示之中土地面积的权重过低无法反映真实的财政需求因此本席的版本修正草案提出四个具体改革方向"},{"start":2278.584,"end":2292.958,"text":"第一 我希望能夠調整分配的權重反映真實的治理成本我們將土地面積的權重由10%提高到20%以合理反映服務員廣大縣市的公共建設維護需求"},{"start":2294.6,"end":2299.224,"text":"同時我也將人口權重有45%調降為35%營業額有30%調降為25%希望能夠平衡城鄉差距第二刪除財產稅成長率的指標導正不當誘因"},{"start":2311.753,"end":2338.744,"text":"原来的指标变相奖励房价上涨与不动产交易热络的都会区违背调剂财政营需的精神本席主张予以删除避免助长炒房第三导入三大负担补偿指标实现分配正义第一个是环境负荷指数我们希望针对承担碳排空污重工业产值的城市给予补偿"},{"start":2339.344,"end":2360.756,"text":"第二 糧食安全指數我們要肯定農業縣市對於守護國家安全糧食供給的貢獻第三 高齡人口的指數也要列入希望能夠協助老化社會面臨龐大的社福支出的時候也能夠得到政府的肯定第四 我希望能夠完備二級分配與離島裁員修正離島分配"},{"start":2365.979,"end":2387.479,"text":"分配的措施所有錯誤並明定鄉鎮市分配公示須由中央與地方協商後送立法院備查確保透明化本席的版本經過試算能夠有效的為高雄爭取更多的資源更重要的是他建立了一套"},{"start":2388.5,"end":2410.107,"text":"誰承擔誰負擔誰就應該獲得支持的這樣的一個公平邏輯懇請各位委員予以支持以上謝謝好謝謝邱委員接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員來說明蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在場好那我們接下來請財政部莊部長回應委員的提案內容"},{"start":2416.636,"end":2423.353,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好今天貴委員會審查才化法修正案總共有七案"},{"start":2424.051,"end":2447.276,"text":"緊就本次審查個體案的版本以及行政院函請大院審議的修正草案規劃情形我們並按提報告如下另外有關支出面還有補助制度的規劃那後續會由主席總處來做補充說明首先就行政院草案的規劃情形做報告為了使財政資源分配落實均衡城鄉均衡台灣的目標"},{"start":2448.476,"end":2473.657,"text":"本部參酌多數學者專家還有地方政府的意見並會同主計總署拟據了財化法部分條文修正草案經過行政院114年11月20號院會通過並且在同日送請大院審議僅就本次修法設本部業務部分的規劃重點如下第一個我們在垂直的錢權分配是更為合理我們經過行政院就事權及支出權責通盤檢討規劃擴大"},{"start":2477.2,"end":2493.96,"text":"統籌稅款的規模並且調整一般性及計劃型補助款的規模使地方財源增加同時兼顧中央財政的穩健第二個就是水平城鄉的分配更公平規劃統籌稅款分配的方式入法"},{"start":2494.44,"end":2509.011,"text":"直轄市還有縣市按照同一個公式來分配我們會優先滿足地方政府基本財政收支差額以及搭配財源保障的機制並且精進財政奴隸和基本建設需求來分配指標"},{"start":2509.891,"end":2519.157,"text":"使財源的分配能夠更公平第三個是國民的生活品質可以更均衡我們把地方自行辦理屬於地方自治事項而涉及全民基本生活福祉具有均衡性普遍性常態辦理的事項納入基本財政需要額來計算由統籌稅款優先補足該需要額與基本財政收入額之間的差額"},{"start":2536.087,"end":2551.52,"text":"使各地區的國民能夠獲得一定的生活品質和公共服務第四個我們會提升地方財政紀律使地方自治更為強化我們增訂統籌稅款是為地方政府違反財政紀律四項的扣減標的"},{"start":2553.442,"end":2581.016,"text":"并且授权由全责机关在相关办法中来定定以符合授权明确性的原则第二个本次审查各提案版本与行政院草案的延期比较首先是中央释出税收规模的部分各委员提案涉及税客收入的划分调整由郭国文委员提案及赖瑞荣委员所提的两案鉴于财劃法修正前的救治统筹税款规模不足以全数弥补"},{"start":2581.596,"end":2597.226,"text":"各地方政府基本財政收支的差額需要另外以一般性補助款來補足所以在行政院的草案裡面就適度的擴大統籌稅款的規模比114年度修法前我們增加釋出的中央統籌稅款規模達到3537億元將更能滿足地方的基本財政需求並兼顧中央財政韌性"},{"start":2606.432,"end":2622.999,"text":"第二个税收直接分成的部分郭委员所提案减少市及乡镇市移政税收入的这个部分以审慎的评估那么陈委员郁真所提案调整烟酒税分成的规定和行政院草案规划的方向是一致的"},{"start":2623.619,"end":2639.28,"text":"第三個是水平分配的部分賴瑞榮委員提案的兩案等兩案以及邱委員及蔡委員提案等四案的水平分配公式都是按一定的比例來分配給地方政府鑒於採取比例入法"},{"start":2640.101,"end":2656.048,"text":"因應地方組織調整的實際需要如果能夠按照行政院草案的規劃將有利於因應未來行政區劃的調整第二個涉及統籌稅款分配指標調整的提案總共有五案總共有重點如下污染的相關指標"},{"start":2657.188,"end":2685.33,"text":"利益非常好但是所提的指標是否符合關聯性普遍性客觀性這個原則並可取得相關的公開數據需要進一步的研議那麼行政院草案已經把盈利事業的營業額和工業人口納為分配指標並就中高污染事業就業人口採加成計算那麼對於增加地方污染防治成本部分我們提供了適度的回饋第二個農業及國土保育相關指標"},{"start":2686.491,"end":2694.023,"text":"有關兼顧地區發展的差異行政院草案已經把農林漁牧就業人口以及農林漁牧的產值作為分配的指標"},{"start":2695.578,"end":2719.081,"text":"同時農牧用地並採取加成計算我們來適度的回饋農業縣份的貢獻國土保育用地則採取打折計算以合理反映地方政府土地使用以及管理維護的成本第三有關高齡人口的相關指標可以合理反映高齡化增加地方政府施政的支出那麼行政院草案也把65歲以上人口"},{"start":2719.541,"end":2739.736,"text":"采加成计算以利均衡区域的发展第四个有关发电量指标考量不具有普遍性而且电厂设置是配合国家以及民生发展的政策衍生的外部性问题寻补助方式办理比较适宜在于其他的部分国委员提案把普通税款"},{"start":2741.617,"end":2768.633,"text":"40%优先来弥补基整财政收支差额余数再按照指标分配给各市县前开的额度是否足额弥补已需要另外的审慎考量最后的结语本次行政院的草案前后多达六次邀集会商充分的听取地方政府的意见并参着多数专家学者建议审慎的规划是目前最具有共识的版本敬请大院各位委员支持将该修正草案复为"},{"start":2769.153,"end":2781.981,"text":"并按审查以制定更为完善的分配机制以上说明敬请各位委员指教谢谢好谢谢庄部长接下来我们请主席总处陈副主席长回应委员提案内容"},{"start":2790.888,"end":2814.745,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生以下緊究財政收支劃分法的修正提出簡要的說明如下首先我們中央在對地方財政大力的協助下其實地方的財政已經大幅的改善我們透過中央統籌分配稅款 一般性補助款"},{"start":2815.305,"end":2825.522,"text":"及計劃型補助款三項財源來協助地方所以近年這個地方的財源呈現穩定的成長"},{"start":2826.943,"end":2833.705,"text":"到了這個115年度已經高達一兆1683億比114年度增加1552億元由於這些年來中央持續挹注地方使得地方的財政獲得明顯改善整體"},{"start":2849.208,"end":2855.575,"text":"稅入稅出的餘處已經由101年度的短處589億元在108年度反轉為剩餘並在113年度剩餘高達818億元"},{"start":2865.965,"end":2885.012,"text":"另外一年以上未償債務餘額也由105年度的高峰8689億元降到113年度的7433億元這個都是中央和地方共同努力的一個成果"},{"start":2885.963,"end":2915.052,"text":"接著說明大院在113年跟114年兩次財化法的修正對中央施政的影響由於113年12月20號刪讀的財化法修正案大幅削減中央可運用的財源卻又限制中央給地方的一般性補助款不得減少所以衝擊中央施政的量能"},{"start":2915.552,"end":2936.107,"text":"而114年11月14號三讀通過的修正案更明定對地方補助款最低補助比例及補助額度等等以至於中央確實有諸多自愛難行之處主要包括違反公共債務法"},{"start":2936.988,"end":2954.853,"text":"以及限制了行政預算權等等的自愛難行所以我們行政院在114年11月20號已經提出院版財化法修正這個草案兼顧中央跟地方施政需求"},{"start":2955.833,"end":2979.503,"text":"財源跟事權並同考量可以使國民生活品質更均衡垂直的錢權劃分更合理水平的分配更公平地方自治更強化中央地方的夥伴關係更提升包括我們透過中央統籌分配稅款支應資本"},{"start":2980.743,"end":2992.293,"text":"基本財政需要而讓地方都有經費執行均衡性的普遍性的跟常態性的地方自治事項另外也能夠"},{"start":2994.997,"end":3013.317,"text":"比舊版的財化法增加四出一千八百七十億元所以可以保障地方政府中央統籌分配稅款一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款三者合計不低於一百一十四年度的貨配額度"},{"start":3014.827,"end":3043.485,"text":"同時我們也讓一般性補助款維持教育社福基本設施三項的設算而重大建設軌道建設跟跨區域跟配合國家重大政策則透過計劃型的補助款協助地方建設不中斷來提升人民生活的品質最後在這裡衷心期望為了國家均衡的發展"},{"start":3044.345,"end":3059.8,"text":"讓中央有能力來協助地方地方也有充足自主財源共同創造人民生活品質更均等所以希望能夠支持我們行政院版的財化法以上 謝謝"},{"start":3062.452,"end":3091.392,"text":"好 谢谢陈副组织长现在开始询答先做以下的宣告第一 每位初席委员发言时间8分钟必要时得延长2分钟每位列席委员发言时间5分钟第二 今日上午10点截止发言登记第三 本次会议委员若有相关修正登记请进送主席台 并便议事人员整理第四 现已登记顺序请登记第一位的林德福委员质询"},{"start":3102.543,"end":3110.387,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請主計總署的陳副主計長還有莊部長請莊部長陳副主計長委員好委員早安早我想因為賴總統上個禮拜三說今年經濟成長率"},{"start":3127.594,"end":3154.852,"text":"預測上修到7.37%創15年來的新高他強調這個執政黨的使命就是要把亮眼的數字轉換成人民有感的日常生活讓民眾繼續共享經濟的果實那經濟成長數字要讓人民日常有感全民同步有感"},{"start":3157.255,"end":3162.894,"text":"調薪啦那請問主計長你認為副主計長請問你認為政府有能力做到嗎"},{"start":3164.325,"end":3187.544,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們的經濟成長率上調到7.37那這方面就是說我們產業的發展非常調心有沒有辦法就是透過他們在稅收不管是營業所得稅 綜合所得稅等各項稅收來貢獻會讓全民來貢獻那貢獻你有沒有調心因為低薪"},{"start":3193.991,"end":3216.477,"text":"第一些我們最近的這個最近這幾個月其實我們實質薪資的成長都超過我們的物價指數所以實質薪資都有成長那麼你要是說真的沒有辦法調那你認為是不是要提前宣布延續今年土花現金的政策是不是也是一個好的辦法"},{"start":3217.623,"end":3236.548,"text":"就是說普發現金當然是共享的模式之一但是同樣的錢如果我們有更大的效益也許在重大的投資方面會更有效益如果政府要把那個錢都是要去搞國防一萬兩千五百億你認為這個"},{"start":3241.423,"end":3260.398,"text":"是不是如果政府做不到那你認為我不是說一萬兩千五百億做不到只不過是你都把它投資在國防上面今年已經變了九千四百九十五億另外賴總統又要增加一萬兩千五百億那我請問明年的所得稅貨物稅減輕的做法"},{"start":3262.219,"end":3271.753,"text":"美化成經濟果實的共享但卻看得到吃不到啦在這種低薪的環境裡是不是更噁心多數民眾的爛招嗎"},{"start":3274.747,"end":3289.363,"text":"當然國防是一定是要先有一個有一個安全的環境我們各項的不管經濟等等才能發展因為你這樣子讓人家感覺是不是更噁心因為這種變成一個爛招你想經濟成長很高沒有錯實際上"},{"start":3294.264,"end":3308.163,"text":"人民有享受到嗎 沒有啊對不對 主席長 副主席長沒講到普派現金政府官員只會對在野黨明帶 攻防回應說實在話啦本席看不出真正虛心來面對問題的一個態度"},{"start":3311.768,"end":3331.517,"text":"主席長也說從今年到明年台灣經濟都是穩健的上升的態勢所以在高基期下預測2026年經濟成長仍有3.54%如果按照國內機構的看法明年經濟成長率的高基期下的回落"},{"start":3332.317,"end":3347.126,"text":"台美這個談判與AI投資續航成關鍵再加上國外機構也提出明年台灣內需沒有提升出口有效出口有緩緩的餘率所以說對台灣GDP預測值都在3%以下"},{"start":3354.17,"end":3360.084,"text":"那請問要是那個副主席這樣你認為主計總數明年GDP的預測會不會過於樂觀"},{"start":3363.728,"end":3391.918,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們這個預測事實上就是每三個月會滾動檢討一次所以我們會隨時注意整個全球的環境來做一個檢討剛剛委員關心的其實低薪的問題我們有一直在持續關心我們認為這的確是一個要注意的問題我們會透過各項比如說弱勢的幫助社會保障支出來說短縮減貧富的差距"},{"start":3393.757,"end":3401.848,"text":"如果不是過於樂觀那到底我們明年經濟成長率超過3%的最大優勢條件到底是什麼"},{"start":3403.25,"end":3423.438,"text":"我們主要是我們在最近尤其是AI產業等等我們的整個產業鏈非常的完整但是那個傳統產業慘兮兮對不對因為關稅的問題根本就政府到現在為止都沒有拿出真正的辦法那些傳統產業根本就"},{"start":3426.264,"end":3446.334,"text":"幾乎啦 他們沒有辦法生存有 我們有注意到傳統產業的目前面臨的困境那經濟部也提出很多就是說優惠貸款或者說協助他升級AI等等的方案那些都反不及急啦大家都清清楚楚我想今天的會議程序之一就是要把國安基金規模從現行的五千億擴大到一兆以上並且取消"},{"start":3452.037,"end":3475.23,"text":"持有股票向銀行借款和四大基金周轉的限額副處長身為國安基金管理委員之一請問你的看法媒體報導說國安基金護盤時四大基金可動用的部位已經很少在歷次護盤中國安基金幾乎都沒有向四大基金來調度護盤額度"},{"start":3478.212,"end":3497.792,"text":"只有限於向銀行借款的兩千億元那主計總署修法打算將基金規模擴大到一兆以上換句話說銀行借款周轉限額可能上調到七千億那我請問公股銀行借給國安基金的錢從哪裡來"},{"start":3502.65,"end":3519.057,"text":"國安基金主要是財政部他們來作為幕僚的機關就我們的了解就是說這個規模主要是各界基於這個股市的整個規模大幅的成長莊部長你來看這個部分你怎麼看"},{"start":3520.659,"end":3544.546,"text":"跟委員報告因為對於要放寬國安基金借款7000億現額你怎麼看由於國內的股市跟當時國安基金成立之前已經差了非常大的一個差距另外5000億的額度裡面3000億是四大基金但四大基金可動用的金額有限所以大概就是2000億可動用就是以融資的方式"},{"start":3545.186,"end":3571.184,"text":"因此各界包含我們在國安基金裡面的委員都有這些方面的疑慮認為適度要擴大基金的規模部長因為國安基金設置及管理條例第四條第一項第一款以國庫所持有之公民銀行公民銀事業股票為擔保向金融機構來借款"},{"start":3571.865,"end":3583.544,"text":"借款最高額度新台幣2000億元那請問部長國庫持有股票是指財政部持有還是中央政府各部會持有的股票"},{"start":3584.836,"end":3610.745,"text":"這裡面的股當然是包含各部會還有財政部所管股權事業的股票全部涵蓋就對了全部涵蓋 是的 謝謝股票是流通性的有價證券而設定擔保後正常來說是沒有辦法自由買賣那我請問部長假如基金規模擴大政府是否會保證這些提供擔保借款的舊股市股票"},{"start":3612.813,"end":3628.978,"text":"一定不會讓銀行虧損 可以保證嗎有關這個國安基金他目前來說是授權如果是護盤是只有授權我們執行秘書來做操盤那今天執行秘書也在現場我們是不是可以由執行秘書來回答您這個說明這個問題好 那個阮 阮次長"},{"start":3634.011,"end":3657.382,"text":"包委員 假定這個國安基金的規模規模就是說像銀行借款有現在的兩千億元提高到七千億元的話那基本上我們還是會向金融機構來貸款那這一部分以目前的金融機構的這個貸款能量來講是沒有問題的那我請問如果政府保證會不會有圖利特定人的餘率"},{"start":3658.895,"end":3687.786,"text":"會不會我們國安基金沒有什麼保證的問題這樣喔反之如果政府不能保證那提供資金借款救市的銀行風險是不是大幅度的提高會不會我覺得剛好是顛倒如果是說我們把這個國安基金的規模如果拉高的話我覺得對股市的穩定還有就是投資人的信心一定有很大的幫助因為現在的2000元其實真的是非常的那是25年前的標準這樣喔"},{"start":3688.326,"end":3702.77,"text":"那現在已經這個股市的規模還有就是外資的持股的能量還有就是日均的成交值都大幅度的提高所以在這種情況之下兩千億真的是非常的辛苦了"},{"start":3705.152,"end":3713.701,"text":"市長那你回去我來請教部長上一次國安基金進場護盤的時間已經是護盤史上最長的紀錄那我請問部長從今年4月8日護盤後你認為這一次是不是有機會再度創下最長護盤的時間紀錄"},{"start":3724.512,"end":3743.877,"text":"有關國安基金護盤進場或者是什麼時候退場是由委員會來共同討論來做決定的那他們在委員會裡面會有根據相關的一些資本市場金融市場的一個情勢大家來分析討論部長因為從今年4月上旬台股最低點國安基金進場護盤到今天上漲超過1萬點以上那我請問如果護盤的國安基金要退場你認為應該是"},{"start":3754.505,"end":3778.538,"text":"成就哪些因素以目前整個大盤上萬點的上漲趨勢你認為這次國安基金的操作績效和投資報酬力是不是有很大機會能夠創新高請簡短回答國安基金不是以賺錢為目的它是以穩定金融市場跟資本市場為目標好啦 其他我下次再問 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林委員接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":3791.192,"end":3816.882,"text":"主席麻煩請陳副組計長請陳副組計長委員好副組長請教一下現在本院對於明年度的預算審查進行到什麼程度你知道嗎就是說目前都還沒有付所以今天12月20號了正常的會期是到12月31號"},{"start":3818.875,"end":3836.712,"text":"現在當然有人提案說要延一個月我看他們多數表決會過結果12月的時候預算還沒有付尾我看你今年大概省不到了今年省不到1月31號以前也可能省不到這個會期有可能預算沒有辦法審查怎麼辦"},{"start":3839.68,"end":3863.662,"text":"是 我們也非常對這件事情非常的擔憂因為預算是關乎我們的施政能不能繼續穩定的前進尤其我們115年度的預算不管是中央跟地方我們都已經有過多次的溝通而且已經分別都編列了預算送到各自的民意機關在審議了"},{"start":3865.003,"end":3888.348,"text":"那以中央來講如果說我們這個預算一直遲遲沒有通過的話會影響到很多的計畫都不能執行比如我們有一個健康台灣的這個計畫裡面包含讓我們能夠彈性的每個人需要疫苗的時候都有疫苗可以打這個70億就沒有辦法執行還有"},{"start":3889.188,"end":3917.215,"text":"關乎我們的這個環境我們這個會這個整治這個治水的預算這個四年一千億也無法執行還有這個都是跟大家息息相關的還有我們攸關國際競爭力的AI十大產業的這個計畫也無法執行另外就通勤組我們通勤組九十七萬人的這個通勤組T-PASS的這個計畫也無法執行還有"},{"start":3918.055,"end":3947.125,"text":"涉及到12萬預算如果沒有審查照法律規定你的新增計畫都不能做了對 所有的這個新興的計畫能不能列出來把這個項目列出來讓社會大眾知道啊好 我們會來努力那你知道現在不審查的原因是什麼嗎現在不審查的原因就是說不復違啦 到現在還不復違的原因是什麼你知道嗎當然就是說跟軍警有關待遇相關的這個部分只有這一項而已嗎"},{"start":3949.579,"end":3953.868,"text":"另外就是才化法剛修正的11月14號的這個版本的問題"},{"start":3956.499,"end":3978.492,"text":"11月14號才劃法這個版本它非常的自愛難行因為我們在8月底中央跟地方都已經把預算送到民營機關來審議了所以這個11月14號才通過我們的預算完全無法回溯所以這個有它的自愛難行我先問一個比較程序的問題"},{"start":3979.773,"end":3994.981,"text":"其實以我了解現在地方政府的議會無論是直轄市或是各縣市都已經在審查預算了那他們的明年的預算關於中央政府補助還有統籌分配稅款的部分如果中央的這個預算審查沒有過他們拿得到嗎就會受到影響影響是怎麼樣的影響"},{"start":4000.563,"end":4025.254,"text":"就是說我們主要就是可能個別部會必須去界定哪一些是新興的新興的就一定會受影響那因為115年度這個制度的變革比較大所以新興的會比較多我提早我現在建議你們你要提早爬書提早整理好不好不要到時候你才在那邊緊張我跟你講現在地方政府地方的議會都在審預算"},{"start":4026.654,"end":4052.188,"text":"因為我有服務團隊 我服務團隊裡面有議員他們就跟我講說現在在審預算中央的要給他的補助 中央的統籌分配稅款他們其實都有量定之後再去審當然他們可以周轉 他們可以先借一下然後如果你中央撥下來之後他再頂問題是如果中央一直撥不下去中央撥不下去的影響程度到底會到什麼程度你能不能先概估一下"},{"start":4053.832,"end":4073.314,"text":"現在如果沒有撥款下去應該蠻多地方政府他在調度的能力因為他這次影響的範圍比較廣所以那個調度的能力應該是不夠所以地方的很多的建設都還有跟地方有關的一些社會福利的項目都會受到影響"},{"start":4074.295,"end":4100.763,"text":"沒有辦法因為現在有人看法是說立法機關我用法律的規定規定你要硬性支出搶奪你的行政權嘛那你現在這樣的法律剛剛你講說你們的看法是自愛難行我舉個例子他軍人一定要加薪多少錢軍人加薪應該是行政機關的權利嘛但立法機關又跟你立法那我將來如果人多我可不可以立法立一個說立法委員每個人每個月要加薪兩百萬"},{"start":4102.042,"end":4112.43,"text":"那立個法你要不要執行所以我舉這樣子的例子是說有時候這個東西是要經過大家協商大家研判那現在不省預算那現在把總預算當作肉票啊"},{"start":4113.721,"end":4139.638,"text":"擄人勒鼠你聽過嘛擄人勒鼠是抓人要拿錢嘛對不對那現在是擄總預算不讓你審查然後硬要逼你 你一定要吞下去嘛 對不對所以這在我來看跟擄人勒鼠有接近啦所以你的總預算會變成肉票真的沒辦法審所以你現在應該要趕快爬出來你不要等到12月底他說要延後一個月然後1月底你才跟人家講早點跟人家講讓人家早做準備"},{"start":4141.041,"end":4166.255,"text":"對不對 你覺得呢是 我們應該要來做這些事情我是希望能夠了解說如果真的沒有預算審查影響最大的是我知道大家的薪水都可以領 沒有問題因為照以前的法律規定你薪水都照領但是新興計畫都不能做原有的計畫 原有的舊有的計畫也只能夠做多少只能做一部分 不是百分之百就是以上年度的執行數為天花板"},{"start":4167.496,"end":4195.811,"text":"上年度的執行組的天花板所以增加的預算都沒有了對好那你要把這個仔細的整理出來提早讓透過媒體讓全民知道預算不審查所造成的後果先古人說不教而殺為之虐你先把這個造成的危害講在前面說清楚講明白將來發生的人家才不會怪在你頭上不然你希望你以後主計部財政部吃不完兜著走"},{"start":4197.057,"end":4215.868,"text":"是你贊不贊成我這個說法是 尤其就是說其實預算就我施政的表現那如果預算一直沒有過未來這個責任政治就會不清楚不清楚 他不在乎啊他現在在跟你搞政治他還不管你預算審查都已經把這個總預算當作肉票了他還管你這個嗎"},{"start":4219.225,"end":4240.43,"text":"那你要讓國民知道說哪一些讓他們講清楚現在因為很多民眾很多國民的觀念裡面政府是一體的所以譬如說他拿不到租屋補貼到底我是應該要怪地方政府還是要怪中央政府還是要怪審查預算的這一些立法委員他們搞不清楚狀況啊那"},{"start":4241.294,"end":4266.536,"text":"我在外面走我在我的選區走常常被這樣問愛委員我們那個補助到底有沒有我也沒辦法回答他因為你預算沒有審查我也不知道那個補助會不會有我也不知道那個補助是應該要中方政府來付還是地方政府來付我也沒辦法回答他所以我現在都只能跟他講說你到服務處來我找那個秘書他們找那個行政機關跟你查詢查詢之後再回答你連我"},{"start":4268.377,"end":4292.643,"text":"都搞得不清不楚的那你現在跟一般的人怎麼會搞得清楚呢所以是什麼樣的情況造成哪一些的補助會變成沒有辦法下來這是誰的權責是地方政府該給的補助還是中央政府該給的補助地方政府拿不到中央撥款之後他可能也沒辦法補助那他也可能轉頭他賴給說中央政府不給我錢所以我沒有辦法補助你"},{"start":4293.622,"end":4305.119,"text":"就像現在不是最近在討論那個什麼罰單嗎交通違規的罰單一大堆就說仔細去看原來地方政府拿了75%警察單位拿了24%那只有1%是拿來怎麼樣"},{"start":4309.245,"end":4337.561,"text":"結果很多人搞不清楚以為開罰單就是交通部給我搞的每一個人都罵交通部我每次都跟他看說你看看罰單上面寫誰如果在我們新北市就是新北市政府警察局交通違規罰單我都會拿給他看新北市政府警察局他說不管啦反正也是交通部那邊訂的法律啦反正都怪你們就對了要賴給清德就好啦所有的不如意所有的不愉快全部都賴給政府就好了都賴給清德就好了"},{"start":4338.803,"end":4355.178,"text":"所以我是希望冤有頭債有主啦不要造成這樣的狀況那你可不可以告訴我你多久可以這個東西可以爬出清楚我希望有一天在媒體上看到也不用你來跟我報告我希望在媒體上看到講清楚說明白這個會造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":4356.645,"end":4368.438,"text":"有沒有辦法跟委員報告就是委員講的這個這非常的重要那其實我們已經持續都對外說明說預算沒有過的這個影響哪有 我就很少看到那我們會再更大力的這個"},{"start":4371.084,"end":4391.957,"text":"因為妳講得不夠仔細啊妳沒有跟人講說妳的租屋補貼還會不會有妳每一年給年輕人讀大學的讀私立大學這些補助還有沒有等等這些妳要講清楚啊妳沒有講清楚就講說我過了會很慘那民眾聽了很慘是怎麼樣很慘我不知道很慘是什麼意思"},{"start":4393.584,"end":4417.658,"text":"就是我們了解就是說我們院裡面會請各部會趕快去會診他的相關心境計畫的沒有過的影響對啊 因為責任政治就是要可以可以那個啊可以知道誰在搞我誰在搞鬼然後我受害要找誰這個一定要弄清楚不然的話搞不清楚狀況我怎麼知道我這只好賴給反正都賴給政府就好了"},{"start":4418.888,"end":4428.017,"text":"千萬不要這樣啊誰做對不對 始作俑者岂其無後乎誰作勇誰負責好不好好 我們會跟部會來合作 謝謝謝謝吳委員接下來我們請賴世保委員"},{"start":4443.543,"end":4448.886,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請財政部的莊部長好 請莊部長委員長部長早這個我們看到媒體有報導說輝達H200晶片可以銷中國大陸但是中間美國要抽成25%要台灣買單"},{"start":4470.835,"end":4494.722,"text":"這個要台灣買單啦這個我們財政部邊預算啦他賣東西給美國 給大陸結果要被抽百分之二十五佣金 要台灣買單你怎麼看這個事啊我想對於媒體的報導我覺得還需要大家要進一步的確認不過他已經這樣講了啊美國政府都這樣川普說這個要抽百分之二十五啊台灣買單啊 他說進口稅啊"},{"start":4497.649,"end":4526.252,"text":"我想這個部分還是要進一步的確認所以你不知道不知道這個事是 我覺得後面需要進一步確認那我現在就是說我問你就是說如果要台灣政府買單你接受嗎我想這個什麼叫做台灣政府買單輝達去把晶片賣給大陸那台灣買單是怎麼個買單對啊 莫比奇妙啊怎麼會有這樣子這需要進一步了解我覺得這個詳細的內容我們經常是從媒體上看到也許事實如何我們都需要進一步的確認"},{"start":4527.112,"end":4543.921,"text":"這個等於扒兩層皮 奇怪了生意人在做錢 他在賺所以我們來復活 這是莫名其妙這個東西怎麼會這個樣子我們回到今天的國安基金了國安基金 阮次長可以上來我們看到我們歷屆總共八次復盤只有一次 2000年10月2號"},{"start":4552.972,"end":4556.935,"text":"超過1000例 其他都沒有超過1000例沒有 一次也沒有然後呢 這個是報酬率6.22%到53.21%所以每一次進場都賺錢 幾乎都是當然有些媒體把他說你什麼時候有一次虧不過我們看全部的Lampson他賺錢6.22%到53.多%"},{"start":4580.513,"end":4593.839,"text":"國安基金的成立背景是李前總統李登輝時代他因為接受德國之音的訪問他要拋出一個特殊的兩國論所以他成立這個國安基金怕影響股市全世界幾乎沒有像台灣這樣的國安基金"},{"start":4601.038,"end":4617.791,"text":"都沒有有那個機制但是幾乎沒有專門因應股市的像香港 中國大陸 日本 韓國 新加坡他們都是用機制不是用我們叫成立一個基金專門對付 應付股市的波動"},{"start":4620.833,"end":4632.843,"text":"這個部長你不覺得我們五千億夠了因為最多就八次裡面只有一次超過一千億其他都是低於一千億你看還有一次2020的3月只有7.6億這個2004的5月只有16億綽綽有餘"},{"start":4640.109,"end":4652.099,"text":"跟股市的市值90幾億沒有關係啊我們國外基金主要是怕市場失靈市場失靈是要看量沒有教育量這個市場就沒有了"},{"start":4657.618,"end":4671.732,"text":"無量下跌這個時候國安基金應該要進場可是現在來講都沒有這種事情發生你要不要回答一下而且今天是委員的提案沒有行政院的版本"},{"start":4673.033,"end":4691.785,"text":"其實有什麼立場沒有你們支不支持要不要增加5000億跟委員報告國安基金成立的到現在從民國89年到現在已經超過25年了那這樣的一個情況它的市值從我們的報告裡面國安基金委員會的報告裡面寫得非常清楚成長的倍數非常高"},{"start":4692.305,"end":4712.491,"text":"另外外資的比例也佔的高那在國安基金目前雖然是五千億但是有三千億是四大基金來融資但是四大基金本身他自己也有所投資所以能動用幾乎沒有動用過那因此只有兩千億可以去融資那在實際上在運作上在國安基金的委員會裡面也有委員提出這樣的一個建議認為這個規模事實上應該要更是你沒有回答我的問題"},{"start":4718.954,"end":4738.676,"text":"過去的八次裡面只有一次超過一千億錯錯有餘啊你現在你要講說我就要兩千億可以用但是三千億你一樣可以集中調度啊四大基金你也可以集中調度不是不能調度我是告訴你部長啊你要增加五千億是什麼概念你要借錢喔"},{"start":4739.904,"end":4760.07,"text":"利率多少這個部分是不是實際操作由我們執行秘書來回答來 秘書請市長 利率多少利率現在是1.4多5千億乘以1.4多就是七十幾億就是我每一年我沒有進場"},{"start":4761.79,"end":4788.005,"text":"去賺錢我都要多付七十幾億喔這是白花花的影子喔你只是一個心理 老實講這個東西當初的李前總統的時候是怕兩國論引起市場的恐慌那現在呢 大家會覺得說你是不是因為賴清德總統丟出來一點澳照特別預算準備兩岸打仗了所以我要加碼五千億"},{"start":4789.165,"end":4816.661,"text":"只有這個可以解釋 不然我是百思不得其解人云欲雲 大家覺得說 喔 現在市場的規模這麼大九十幾兆 所以我要增加這個不能話等號的這個推論沒辦法說服人民啦對不對 我要 我若不進場 我一樣要付七十幾億我加五千億 一年利息就是七十幾億七十幾億的利息 付在這裡每年付 每年付 他如果沒進場 還要付"},{"start":4818.802,"end":4842.274,"text":"你得到什麼 就是心理上你剛剛已經講九十幾兆了如果真的大崩盤的話一兆也不夠啦你要怎麼去hold這個股市hold不住啦 股市是hold不住的啦這是一個心理的 心理要所以你看國安基金變成一兆的時候大家不用怕"},{"start":4847.237,"end":4867.03,"text":"今天不要太廢 可是我是非常保留我覺得大家只是人云亦云說因為股市的市值這麼多了所以應該把它增加到一兆但是從8次 沒有只有一次超過1000億而且每一次都賺錢而且你增加5000億 一年就多增加77億"},{"start":4870.099,"end":4880.609,"text":"論錢我是很保留所以我覺得來部長等一下因為我沒有時間部長你同意不同意部長請部長我覺得要開個公聽會啦"},{"start":4883.349,"end":4906.274,"text":"讓各界的聲音進來啦你們行政院也沒有版本啊要不要開個公聽會 可以嗎我想怎麼樣的一個處理那當然大院有相關的職權那我覺得這個部分國安基金這樣的一個擴大規模在相關的國安基金委員會裡面的委員也都有所開個公聽會啦 讓外界的聲音進來的我們來看喔 那個部長"},{"start":4909.516,"end":4914.284,"text":"行政院對於114114版的財務法題負一被否決了財政部的下一步的步驟是什麼"},{"start":4921.823,"end":4929.948,"text":"你們是115年是按照我們3月10號編的這個統籌8814億一般2500億計劃新年308億這個對吧沒有錯就是根據這個編現在等於願版已經卡住了立法願版已經卡住了那就是回到3月10號通過的版本最後一個問題我又請"},{"start":4952.386,"end":4979.387,"text":"部長 你知道嗎 飯宮股持有國票金這個國務署長也在 市長也在 已經超過打兩成了這個我們所知道的 像是譬如兆豐 幾個飯宮股都要自己買我就問 是不是要落實公併私你們準備要掌握國票金的經營權 有沒有這樣的意圖"},{"start":4980.922,"end":5000.684,"text":"有关经营权当然跟实力是有关系的要看你有多少的实力那公股去买这个有买这个国票金那当然是根据他们自己内部的一个财务的一些规划那后续呢怎么样去处理后面的股权我想这个是后续他们会去做考量的"},{"start":5001.244,"end":5023.025,"text":"公股是也會去做考量沒有 如果你今天因為其他人這個持股大概不會超過10%換公股就20%當然要拿經營權啊 為什麼不要拿經營權呢你們已經買這麼多了難道你要20%送給別人嗎送給張三李四王五 不通啊這裡面大家就會質疑喔"},{"start":5023.766,"end":5051.405,"text":"如果你不要拿經營權那就是你這樣的一個投資可能要圖利某一個團體圖利某一個集團變這個樣子我們不會圖利我們不會去圖利任何或者幫助他變成變成最大最大股東掌握經營權啊否則現在人家人家媒體就這樣報導我們是根據媒體來報導是你看持股兩成問拿國票金的經營權結果現在"},{"start":5054.007,"end":5068.527,"text":"看起來好像不是你們沒有這個企圖心我們當然會按照實例的原則來做處理所以按照實例原則我可不可以解讀說你不排除要去掌握經營權"},{"start":5070.869,"end":5097.026,"text":"這個部分我覺得因為後續還會有一些什麼樣的變化我知道看看因為在股票市場你既然講實力原則我就主張既然實力原則你已經最大股份了你就好好去掌握經營線我覺得這種情況之下才能夠得到社會的支持了解 謝謝委員謝謝賴委員接下來我們請郭國文委員"},{"start":5109.597,"end":5117.859,"text":"主席有請財政部長以及我們的財政部的次長也是我們執行秘書阮次好 請莊部長 阮次長委員好部長我想法案上如果有官方的版本當然很好但是有時候有官方的版本也不能跑到委員會來這邊審查就如同財法法一般我們雖然有行政院的版本但是程序委員會都沒有辦法過"},{"start":5139.384,"end":5160.927,"text":"所以說呢 關鍵恐怕不是行政院版本與否關鍵其實是一個對這政策的一個基本態度的問題然後我們今天要談呢先談這個有關於這個財政收支法分法的這個部分財政收支法分法現在外面其實陷入一個付不付署公不公佈 執不執行的一個問題"},{"start":5162.168,"end":5189.096,"text":"那我也要提醒一下部長部長 這個圖片當中你也是附屬人之一這個問題一定要搞清楚連工商團體現在都看不下去了更何況本席要請教於你的在野黨的部分過去的時候我就一再強調你要去慎重溝通好像也沒有部長 這說一下吧現在僵局了 怎麼辦 怎麼處理以你部長的高度"},{"start":5190.376,"end":5201.26,"text":"跟委員報告 財化法其實是非常重要它是一個財政的基本法然後行政院也已經提出版本行政院是經過跟相關地方政府多次討論而且參酌了各專家學者的意見以後我們提出了院版的財化法"},{"start":5209.022,"end":5229.071,"text":"我們認為院版的裁划法應該盡快的審議盡快的審議然後把已經走偏的火車趕快把它導正回來而不是一修再修二修三修院版的裁划法就如同剛剛有委員說是需要召開公聽會連你去公視院版的裁划法不知道歷經了幾次的公聽會歷經了幾次的各縣市的這個財政首長會議所累積而來的 不是嗎"},{"start":5234.787,"end":5252.974,"text":"经过多次讨论 审慎的规划就行政院的版本当中跟目前之前所通过的这个国中两版国中两版的这个相关的指标的部分其实过度粗糙我上一次就请审计部做一个这个蓝白三次二修所造成的可能结果"},{"start":5253.354,"end":5279.765,"text":"省基部也認為說人口數字營業額佔75%對人口較多及商業發展的都會區比較有利對財力較弱的農業縣不公平城鄉差距恐難所減也就是說會越來越大第二個 市權的部分並未納入考量調整當中導致於行政效能低落資源重複或浪費這省基部的看法"},{"start":5281.306,"end":5301.922,"text":"就很清楚再加上现阶段举债额度可能超过15%可能会违宪对不对这些都问题然后我就今天我要感谢这个主席排我的版本我的版本当中第一个钱要随事转就是事权在决定这个财权这个整个地方才不会抗拒这一个业务"},{"start":5303.303,"end":5325.961,"text":"二来我把统筹分配款拉到6000多亿累积起来大概可以补助给地方也是1.2兆这跟行政院版本也是相符第三指标细致化这也是跟行政院版本相符所以说相差无几行政院版本虽然晚了一点但是你们有你们的创建譬如讲你把烟酒税法的80%那个部分你也纳入了"},{"start":5326.661,"end":5346.065,"text":"这就是让统筹分配款的裁员给增加而且所有的指标跟权数也更加的细致化是不是 部长这个部分你要怎么办既然是相对比较好的版本为什么送不出去你没有其他的方法吗你有没有穷尽洪荒之力去跟这些在野党来做沟通 有没有"},{"start":5346.542,"end":5364.625,"text":"是的 我们也都有去沟通我想这个部分还是希望我们院版的才化法能够赴委尽快审查大家都可以来讨论如同刚刚委员所说的上次3月12号公布的那个才化法确实有这样的一个问题第一个钱权下去但是事权没有同时做调整"},{"start":5365.026,"end":5380.451,"text":"那第二個部分呢指標相當粗略就是人口加上盈利事業營業額的分配達到75%這麼高那就是偏重在一個工商發達的一個城市我們告訴大家台北市光是盈利事業額所"},{"start":5381.171,"end":5403.171,"text":"貨配的金額115年就達到700多億比114年它各指標加起來都還多出16億元這你就知道讓富的更富但是其他的縣市尤其農業的縣份它並沒有獲得很好的一個支持那在院版裡面對於我們的農林榆木的人口產值我們都給予"},{"start":5404.332,"end":5407.953,"text":"指標來讓他來計算可以加成計算那對於農業憲憤他對於國家糧食對於國土保育我們都要給予回饋讓他能夠做更好的處理對 那個部長這個你要常在媒體說常跟藍白立委說你看連工商團體都看不下去了即便你那個版本現有的通過的版本對工商地區比較發達的地方是好的可是連工商團體都看不下去這樣的情況你真的要費盡心思"},{"start":5432.262,"end":5449.625,"text":"不能抹滅農業憲憤對國家的安全國家糧食安全的貢獻台南是六度當中明年是邁拉斯的在整個統籌分配款上面另外一個部分我再請一下那個次長次長你這份報告很好可是你剛剛完全沒有回答其他委員的這一個"},{"start":5450.566,"end":5466.094,"text":"那个值以我要说的其实是你现阶段的这个部分为什么5000亿变成这个一兆有它规模跟时间的向度对不对 这是第一个第二个的部分我说实在你根本不需要保留那四大基金3000万"},{"start":5467.034,"end":5487.51,"text":"你根本用不到世大基金有它的自主性讲白一点你就干脆把它删掉你就跟着直接银行调度就好了这样你的运用空间会比较弹性否则的话它就违离5000亿实际上你是哈咖啡系只有2000亿而且用得非常省用得非常的战战兢兢那事实上这种规模已经到这种阶段了次长 你要讲一下是"},{"start":5488.972,"end":5508.125,"text":"剛才因為他沒有讓我機會來回答所以我就沒有回答我在這邊做一個簡單的說明事實上我們國安基金條例是民國89年就開始實施了那時候股市的規模只有大概8.2兆現在已經回到將近100兆"},{"start":5512.068,"end":5531.566,"text":"足足大了十倍以上对不对对另外就是外资很重要外资那时候当时只有8.44%占比在8.44%现在已经达到46.85%就是那个比重非常高另外就成交值日成交量来讲的话"},{"start":5532.327,"end":5544.959,"text":"我們這個11月份那麼跟這個現在11月份那麼成交量就達到平均量就達到4800多億4800多億那事實上11月份達到6000多億那103年度也是一樣達到這個4600多億"},{"start":5555.069,"end":5559.553,"text":"所以以過去這個25年前的當時的這個規模2000億就是可以用的那個2000億來講以目前的這個股市的規模跟外資的這個比重來看的確在副盤上非常的困難非常困難 也就是說那個心理因素沒有達到安全感的可能性就是說你不會認為有副盤的可能性嘛所以這個規模應該要增加嘛對不對 這理由上其實也講得非常清楚"},{"start":5583.692,"end":5605.309,"text":"那要問的是說你現在這一波是屬於第九波進轉護盤 是 沒錯那目前帳面上是plus還是minus的現在是正的是正的 正多少因為沒辦法現在沒有辦法結算不方便講依照股市的這個走勢你們那個時間點應該是正的 沒有錯可是過去八次的進場當中總共獲利661億這個某個程度來說"},{"start":5611.374,"end":5636.281,"text":"是政府在賺這一個股災財就是黨散戶的時候心裡恐慌的時候紛紛棄股 落跑的時候你去撿便宜的股份這660億一下子無條件的歸入國庫這好像還是有問題新加坡都知道賺這種錢的時候他要拿出來發了你是不是要把這一筆錢來想像一個比較好的用途譬如講長照"},{"start":5637.361,"end":5657.179,"text":"譬如講健保 譬如講國保有沒有各種可能性跟委員報告國安基金的這個賺的錢要經過委員會決議以後那我們基本上是繳戶繳戶以後那就該開始統收統支我當然是知道放在大水庫當中我也不可能流到外面去我也清楚"},{"start":5657.819,"end":5682.56,"text":"那問題是現在我跟你講提出來是說有些民眾說這些錢就是我們當初虧損的錢雖然不是這一個被割韭菜但是是被割韭菜的這種情況底下你是不是要考慮一下跟委員報告這些賺的錢這些賺的錢如果留在國安基金的話因為國安基金已經退場了也不能再買股票 什麼都不行對 是沒有嘛我現在跟你講的是說你現在也Plus"},{"start":5684.662,"end":5699.315,"text":"现在已经过去661你这一次又Plus 又赚这累积的金额越来越高大家眼睛会看你赚的钱怎么用你看你最近补充保费的问题国保的问题长照的经费的问题"},{"start":5700.576,"end":5718.604,"text":"是不是有可能在政策上來思考一下本席就問你這一點是 了解委員的想法如果要這樣做的話可能要修那個國安基金條例就是對它的用途要有明確的規範對 如果這基金的條例要修你們就政策上先討論委員會先行討論我建議你在委員會的時候內部先溝通一下可不可以"},{"start":5719.364,"end":5736.601,"text":"除了金額之外以後這個目標會越來越清楚你累積的這個獲利越高的話大家就會越去懷疑說你這筆錢真的是趁著這一個股災來累積財富是 那這個要大家有共識對 要共識你要回去討論可以吧是"},{"start":5739.304,"end":5763.195,"text":"可以吧这一部分我刚才跟委员报告过以目前的条例的规定是没有我就说你回去讨论一下你今天几时秘书你就有提案的权利我们来研议研议对 至少要去面对这个问题外面已经在挑战了好不好是 我们来研议看看谢谢主席 谢谢部长跟次长好 谢谢郭委员接下来我们请赖会员委员"},{"start":5771.769,"end":5772.77,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長請莊部長"},{"start":5781.026,"end":5802.479,"text":"部長早安相對的問題一問再問那事實上不是你不會回答連我們問的人都不知道該怎麼問那這個就是也是凸顯出現行的版本的一個荒謬那今天我們審查了財政收支劃分法"},{"start":5803.74,"end":5826.789,"text":"那我們也知道就是由去年就是去年的現行版就是去年就是沒有那個強加討論那倉促通過現在勉強的來那個實行的結果不論是中央還是地方的一個垂直分配還是水平分配的計算方式都出現了很大的一個缺失"},{"start":5827.85,"end":5855.756,"text":"那行政院在這樣的一個狀況之下那會不會影響到國家的社會安全還有經濟穩定成長其實這個都很明顯是真的就是影響到了所以其實本席今天執行的重點還是檢視現行的一個版本的一個問題那就是請部長你就針對現行版本跟行政院的版本的一個差異性"},{"start":5856.736,"end":5870.806,"text":"我們共同的來討論我們先從中央財政被壓縮垂直分配的一個結構性的問題到底就是說我們看到了就是舊制我們用114年的一個舊制"},{"start":5874.509,"end":5890.84,"text":"跟現行的法規跟行政院的法規我們就針對了守得稅營業稅跟貨物稅來做一個比較那統籌款到底是變多還是變少那財政部的依據在哪裡請這個部長那個回答一下"},{"start":5892.178,"end":5906.419,"text":"是跟委員報告第一個就是說您所謂的救治的部分救治的部分它其實中央統籌分配稅款的規模確實不夠大確實不夠大因此它會透過一般性的補助款來彌補這中間的一個財政收支的差額"},{"start":5907.04,"end":5910.962,"text":"這一次我們院版在討論的時候當然是有看到這樣的一個問題因此我們就擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模比114年增加了3537億達到8213億這樣以115年來計算的話也可以有到8213億而我們在擴大中央統籌分配稅款規模的時候我們同時考慮到市權的調整"},{"start":5932.19,"end":5936.592,"text":"也就是說屬於地方自治事項地方自辦的事項我們回歸到地方讓地方加強它的財政自主以後也強化了地方自治強化地方自治屬於地方英辦的事項這樣的一個具有普遍性均衡性的指標事項下去以後我們的目的是希望全體的國民能夠獲得生活品質上的一個均衡也就是說不論你生活在鄉村生活在城市"},{"start":5959.459,"end":5982.408,"text":"居民都可以民眾都可以獲得一定的生活品質跟公共服務這是讓我們的生活能夠均衡這是一個但是呢現行的財化法他都沒有調整到所謂的市權同時又要求一般性補助款不得減少甚至在這一次11月14號通過包含計劃型補助款還要維持跟以前一樣那幾乎就是把調配調整財政營需的一個功能完全喪失掉了"},{"start":5987.15,"end":6003.747,"text":"完全喪失掉了好那如果針對的就是說現行版現行版在執行上有這麼大的一個困難的話那你這樣子一估現行版就是說大概大概會是就是這個總金額會落在多少"},{"start":6005.23,"end":6006.671,"text":"現行版現行版的部分呢目前來說在規劃115年是達到1兆1683億那行政驗版啊我們更擴大的就是說我們是達到1兆2002億第一個我們擴大了中央統籌分配稅款比舊制來擴大"},{"start":6023.638,"end":6051.277,"text":"同时我们的一般性补助款维持了社会社福教育跟基本设施还有计划型补助款也维持了救治也维持就让我们的建设可以不中断但是我们最担心的是11月14号三读通过他会让中央要释出到一兆4,329亿会要再释出这么多那中央都要举债的话就会超过债限"},{"start":6052.594,"end":6080.568,"text":"超过债限 公债法的债限这个超过债限有没有违宪啊中央如果要执行114年11月14号三读通过的话中央要释出一兆4329亿我必须再去举债2646亿加上115年我们本来中央政府总预算就要举债2992亿就超过当年度的公债法的债限流量了"},{"start":6081.368,"end":6107.223,"text":"所以部長這顯然就是現行版會讓我們不斷的一直到處去擠債了如果像你這樣講的話你變成就是說你要借更多的錢對現行版因為釋出了以後當然是因為中央必須要維持一定的施政量能維持施政量能的情況下那透過舉債那如果超過債限那是絕對沒有公務員不能做"},{"start":6107.523,"end":6120.695,"text":"那我想這個越講是越沉重那如果我們從水平分配的一個失衡那指標反映不了地方真正的一個真實的一個負擔就誠如你剛才講到了就是說像這個對我們農業縣市來講的話其實是非常的不公平"},{"start":6125.6,"end":6145.245,"text":"那你這個財源保障的一個基準在哪裡我們顯然也看不到就是說你用新版跟驗版來做一個比較的話那分配的方式跟財源的保障我就講這個財源的保障新增驗版是他會去保障這個統籌的稅款還有一般性的補助款跟計劃性的補助款你獲得配合的那個"},{"start":6149.566,"end":6165.018,"text":"建树不得地114年就是等于是旧盘的分配的一个水准可是相形就是这一个新版他就是说普通的统筹税款分配那个金额叫修法前一年减少了"},{"start":6165.598,"end":6181.953,"text":"那這個很明顯你就看到了它其實是沒有辦法反映到地方的真實的一個負擔那如果從台南我們的農業來講的話那我講到了一個水平分配的一個失衡分配的一個指標"},{"start":6183.499,"end":6207.598,"text":"某市的地方的真實的一個負擔對我們農業縣市的話是非常地不公平成如你剛才回答的那個郭委員他的一個那個質詢裡頭你講得非常清楚你看縣型版它的那個45%它這一個人口數它完全完全沒有細分到就是說農業人口 青年人口"},{"start":6208.399,"end":6226.427,"text":"那這樣子顯然對於就是說在未來未來就是我們南部尤其是說我們的農業面積這麼大的一個南部縣市的話那地方政府確實沒有那麼多的一個資源可以傲然我們那該怎麼辦"},{"start":6228.263,"end":6233.964,"text":"確實是如委員所說的因此我們認為願版的財化法應該盡快附為審議大家來做討論讓我們的財政要回歸到一個可長可久的一個制度那如同委員剛剛說的這樣子的盈利事業 營業額加上人口達到75%讓工商發達的城市獲配的金額更多而工商發達城市他創稅的能力更高因為他不管是地價稅土地增值稅 房屋稅他的收入都比"},{"start":6257.29,"end":6262.852,"text":"農業憲分來得高農業憲分對國家糧食安全的貢獻是不容抹煞的因此在我們院版的財化法裡面我們對農林榆木的就業人口農林榆木的產值我們都給予配的全數讓他可以在這部分獲得一定的回饋我想這個部分是非常重要尤其高齡人口已經誘而必須要政府更多的照顧我們也對於"},{"start":6282.479,"end":6306.138,"text":"65岁以上的人口以及14岁以下的孩子们我们对他的人口用1.2倍来计算这样才能够真正呈现政府的一个施政支出那这些地方政府这些的支出都会在我们中央统筹分配税款里面给考量进去让国民的生活品质才能够更均衡而不是只有生活在城市的人获得保障"},{"start":6307.139,"end":6328.48,"text":"在很多委員的版本裡頭也看到了他們把農業跟老人人口都那個增加都總計都已經就是說到65%以上了所以就是說顯然他們看到了這個就是現板現板的公司變成就是說重商 輕農然後輕工那地方業偏遠的就是"},{"start":6329.724,"end":6336.988,"text":"地方越偏遠的縣市負擔的越重反而在分配中被壓得更低了這個是非常非常的不合理尤其是農業縣市的負擔被稀釋了這個錢種不足的問題真的沒有辦法正面的反映這個土地的正義所以就是我們在這裡特別跟你再一次的一個提到所以就是說"},{"start":6359.241,"end":6375.542,"text":"還是一樣就是反應夠不夠如果不夠的話就是說行政驗版我們看到的是你們是願意提高這個權重的我們看到的是這樣的一個事實謝謝委員的深入研究我覺得您分析得很清楚"},{"start":6377.004,"end":6401.52,"text":"這很慘啦這是對我們這個台南來講實在是真的很慘所以說部長是不是可以提供驗版的那個補助款的試算的一個金額就是說驗版的財務法調整以後中央跟地方三大的補助款的一個具體的金額還有水平分配所有錢重的調整後每一個地方的試算的結果還有財源保障機制對地方政府實際財務的一個影響把這一個"},{"start":6404.762,"end":6418.632,"text":"真實的一個狀況然後就是送到本席的辦公室跟委員報告我們很重要就是要建立一個可長可久的制度我們應該把制度把它討論更完善 是的制度討論更完善制度討論更完善現在就是"},{"start":6423.379,"end":6440.348,"text":"好 那就是如果制度討論完善了以後請你把本席的三項要求的那就把完整的數據送到我們的辦公室來討論完畢 謝謝是不是主席我想再借用你兩分鐘的時間跟農業部次長請教一個簡單的問題好 那就進述好 進述"},{"start":6450.737,"end":6476.534,"text":"是 處長我想在這裡請教就是針對的就是7月6號丹納斯颱風還有7月28號的豪雨那還有後面的那個這個連續的洋流颱風 微怕颱風這裡頭那我們看到了就是說在這個所有的一個農業的一個補助款裡面是不是已經如期就是把這些補助款那個已經撥到了地方了"},{"start":6479.153,"end":6503.842,"text":"地方政府呈報上來的這個部分我們都在第一三日內就撥回去到地方政府了那所以現在都落實了還是要看地方政府的因為有有些地方政府他的這個勘災的能量沒有那麼大這個部分那所以基本上原則上他只要是這個報告送上來到部裡面的這個部分我們一定在三天之內回到這個所以說就是"},{"start":6505.402,"end":6524.33,"text":"台南的部分的話台南這一次就是說在總額就是這個我們看到了就是說總額43億裡頭台南就佔了就是36%佔了9億3000多萬那9億3000多萬的這一個我們是不是台南市政府都有如期收到了呢"},{"start":6525.689,"end":6538.943,"text":"這個部分是不是委員我們回去再了解一下之後再跟委員匯報那你的輔導計畫也一併送給本席好嗎是 好好 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝賴委員接下來我們請李彥秀委員"},{"start":6554.656,"end":6576.175,"text":"我可不可以邀請部長以及主席總署副主席長好有請部長副主席長部長副主席長才化法走到今天我認為應該要有更多的對話"},{"start":6578.328,"end":6604.383,"text":"而不是只留於喊話公務人員更應該依法行政去處理事情當然我昨天有看到我們院長在媒體上說沒有什麼不能談的包括前面的軍人的加薪也好或者是針對於裁劃法也好或者是公教人員其他幾個案例"},{"start":6605.58,"end":6614.975,"text":"沒有什麼不能談的只要總預算趕快審只要我們的任性條例我們的軍購1.25的條例趕快審沒有什麼不能談的這句話你覺得有沒有問題"},{"start":6621.96,"end":6632.713,"text":"部長 有沒有問題我想委員 財化法是一個非常重要的一個財政的基本的法律那院版已經提出來送大院審議你不敢評論院長講的話部長 沒關係每一個法案都很重要但是 部長"},{"start":6641.684,"end":6644.326,"text":"妳不用跟我吵架但是我要提醒無論才化法無論是軍人加薪無論總預算無論是軍購的預算我覺得都應該好好討論每一個法案都很重要但是你們民進黨的主席也好總統也好 總統太也好過去常說我們對話不能有前提跟條件"},{"start":6667.62,"end":6686.468,"text":"沒有一個法案是私底下可以拿來交換後面給我 前面都好談立法院是監督的角色不管哪一個政黨都是一樣這是我要提醒的我覺得應該有更多良心的對話我們採訪法走到今天我們採訪法走到今天我剛剛一直強調依法行政很重要"},{"start":6687.948,"end":6711.855,"text":"今天我看到的就是比較遺憾的是對於院長來說他可以丟一句話就是我不願意或者是我要設前提但是你是公務人員耶你們底下都是公務人員更部長你現在算是政務官你是公務員上來的之前我們在處理進法補償條例的時候很多我原住民的好朋友就跟我講說好啊如果不編的話總統也"},{"start":6713.515,"end":6738.785,"text":"行政院應該走的權利就是他也不釋憲然後也沒有賦予也不釋憲那你又不編的話後面原住民可以去告原委會這個就是所謂的違法扣留的苛扣罪我想法令你應該很清楚依法三讀通過的法案行政院如果沒有疑慮既不走賦予也沒有釋憲那就依法應該要照理編列預算"},{"start":6743.311,"end":6750.579,"text":"今天當然你們有在走相關的程序但是副主席長 部長你們是公務人員上來的"},{"start":6751.468,"end":6779.813,"text":"我要提醒你們如果拒絕相關的法條或者你們現在用你們的很多行政手段財化法走到今天你們還不願意去做相關的面對後面的一些相關應該處理的我覺得後面相關的法律追訴還有監察院的彈劾這是我要提醒你們的地方我覺得該怎麼處理就應該怎麼處理今天走到今天不管你們說預算不夠未來可能有舉債流量的問題"},{"start":6781.577,"end":6796.738,"text":"事權 錢下放了給地方事權當然也要下放給地方你們到底針對事權你就只有針對垂直分配水平分配錢的部分該怎麼分公事應該怎麼樣去調整做處理但是事權從來沒有好好去討論過"},{"start":6800.062,"end":6815.22,"text":"我支持前下放地方事權當然也要做討論哪些事情該少做一點哪些事情應該分配給地方責任多一點我覺得應該好好討論但是我現在看到的都"},{"start":6816.441,"end":6833.846,"text":"變成流於喊話這不是對話 這是喊話對於解決事情僵局一點幫助都沒有這是我要提醒部長跟主席長的地方我是不是要補充我們一定會依法行政那跟地方的溝通 事權我們國發會跟主席總處也有找地方來開會"},{"start":6835.726,"end":6858.859,"text":"你開會只有你講你的然後他們有意見你也不好好聽其實之前也是好幾個縣市都縣市的財政局局長主計處都有跟我講他們對於你們調配的公式他們一直反映意見但是他們意見你有聽沒有到沒有用 這不是開會你們開會的次數都在最後幾次才開會財化法的修正"},{"start":6860.914,"end":6880.575,"text":"從賴市長到賴院長到總統到你們上任到現在去年在野黨就提出說要調整財化法但是你們市權的部分討論了幾次到最後你們覺得不得已你們之前的版本行政院財政部根本不提出自己的版本到最後"},{"start":6881.636,"end":6887.919,"text":"在立法院通過之後你們才在急急忙忙找人來開會找人來處理版本我覺得這樣不是一個處理跟委員說明我們的開會一直在進行中而且中央對地方財政的挹注年年升高到114年達到1兆到115年更大1兆1600多億你整個總預算增加你對地方的補助你這個叫做蚊子遊戲 部長"},{"start":6908.127,"end":6918.751,"text":"你總預算不斷的膨脹地方那個統籌分配那個分配那個數額越大當然母體數越大當然分配的錢會越多你不要用數字來跟我玩遊戲部長這是我要提醒你不要用文字來糊弄我稅出越多統籌分配的數字比例按照都是按照比例來分配你用這樣來糊弄我就沒有必要了部長"},{"start":6935.942,"end":6956.562,"text":"我想这是一个事实跟委员在这边的说明无论是财政的整个福气的转移也好你那个都有固定的公式这个我很清楚你都有固定的公式你不要说你有分配的越多收入税出越多当然分配的也会越多但是你相对中央的钱也分配的更多嘛"},{"start":6957.102,"end":6978.534,"text":"因為那都是按照公式來走中央統籌分配稅款是按照公式但是一般性補助款和計劃型補助款這個部分一般性的補助款也是有公式計劃性的補助款你有多少錢放在那邊也是公式只是說你愛給誰就給誰我今天不要浪費時間說這個但是我是提醒你們在處理財化法不要"},{"start":6978.894,"end":7003.745,"text":"不要讓公務人員你們自己是公務人員出來了不要違法這是我要提醒你的你的標準哪些要執行哪些不執行你現在不執行包括一般補助款你不執行你的選擇性的條件是什麼跟文包我們一般性補助款目前通知地方政府的我們都會執行如果預算115的預算有通過的話會執行"},{"start":7005.851,"end":7032.877,"text":"你們不是按照我們現在立法院通過的版本主要跟委員說明就是說因為11月14號通過那個版本我們依照預算法8月底預算就要送到立法院然後各地方政委依照地方制度法的期限也都已經送到議會了所以這115年度的預算如果要依照11月14號的版本來回溯是不可能的可以追加預算"},{"start":7035.677,"end":7062.148,"text":"因為這個牽動的那個因為它那個金額非常大所以那個沒有因為主要還是另外也違反了公共債務法所以它環環相扣所以我就講說事權要調整沒有什麼不能處理的事權調整後面再追加預算都有解決的方法你們現在只是說這個違反公債法流量的上限來去做處理這我要提沒有什麼不能處理的沒有什麼不能討論處理的事權調整"},{"start":7065.709,"end":7086.791,"text":"中央少做一點 地方多承擔一點都有解決的方法跟方案好 我這個議題沒有 不能處理但是我現在強調的就是說像你剛剛講說因為違反公債法所以你們不處理包括像軍人家包括軍人家三萬塊這沒多少錢啊你們現在也是一樣不處理啊"},{"start":7087.981,"end":7116.361,"text":"那你們不處理都有各式各樣的理由放在那邊就是追加減預算就是如果辦追加減預算也是會違反公共因為我們已經沒有那個空間去調整所以基於會違法的考慮所以沒有辦法處理所以中央事權少做一點地方多做一點那當然是整塊都一起討論調整你現在只是用一個理由丟在外面就是說我們舉債會超過上限流量會超過上限我們還有那麼多事情要做你事權"},{"start":7117.802,"end":7133.01,"text":"跟後面還有追加預算還有其他的還有其他的財政工具可以去處理目前的問題你們現在只是不願意面對這件事不是不願意面對立法院通過的法案去處理問題這是我要提的可調整的空間不夠我另外一個議題 部長"},{"start":7134.131,"end":7138.292,"text":"今年賴總統對外講說今年經濟成長非常高所以我們要減稅我們要減稅的部分除了從納稅除了從所得的部分要去做處理我們每人的基本生活費從過去的21萬去年21萬調到21萬3千"},{"start":7158.779,"end":7173.999,"text":"部長經濟景氣當然很好但是這是一個失溫的經濟成長壽星階級感受不到我想這句話我常常在講部長你也非常清楚零死薪水的他感受不到"},{"start":7174.62,"end":7199.909,"text":"所以我認為總統這句話在吃所有民眾的豆腐因為你這個該調的基本的生活費它本來就是有公事在做處理本來就有公事無論今年調整的所得稅或長照其實壽星階級真的是感受不到所以部長我最後一句話要提醒的是共享國家經濟的成長"},{"start":7202.412,"end":7211.898,"text":"如果要去做調整的話應該要有其他的真正的其他的更多的免稅工具讓所有真正白領藍領階級領死薪水的"},{"start":7214.741,"end":7226.587,"text":"他可以有更多的免稅的一些機會放在裡頭因為總統所講這些免稅和基本生活那個本來就有這些公視在去年是21萬今年調整21萬3千塊這本來就有公視放在那邊不是因為總統因為經濟景氣很好所以我這個公視有調整"},{"start":7235.011,"end":7249.788,"text":"我沒有講錯吧我覺得跟委員報告委員這樣的照顧民生真的是納稅者的基本生活費用本來每一年都有調整的公司放在那邊那不是因為經濟景氣很好所以總統要求你們去做調整"},{"start":7250.469,"end":7255.213,"text":"我們時間到了跟委員報告除了稅之外其實政府在社福支出部分達到27%是我們稅出預算裡面最高的所以政府的財政好的時候我們會透過各種方式去照顧需要照顧的民眾我覺得這個還有我們的教育文化支出也是第二高的這個部分都超過了40%兩者相加"},{"start":7272.89,"end":7291.304,"text":"在我們的總預算裡面是這樣的我今天是拿總統的話要讓所有藍領白領壽星階級還有所有沒有享受到經濟成長的果實這些基礎勞工們感受到政府真正減稅的美意不要拿這些本來應該有的減稅當然要來鼓勵企業去給員工們加薪謝謝我們時間到了謝謝李委員接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":7312.165,"end":7335.174,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府經濟部長 官員會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請財政部莊部長還有我們國家金融安定基金管理委員會我們阮執行秘書 就是我們阮次長好 請莊部長 阮次長等一下等黃珊珊委員質詢之後我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":7337.45,"end":7357.348,"text":"謝謝部長好 次長好來 先請一下次長因為你是執行秘書我們看一下國發基金國安基金不是國發它從89年到114年總共是多少年的時間25年的時間市值成長了10.5倍外資持比的比例雖然是多了38%但實際上也增加了8倍 將近8倍"},{"start":7359.164,"end":7373.448,"text":"日均交易額從1000多億變成4800億也成長了將近4.5倍那其中最近這幾年外資的賣超也差不多在1000億 900多億所以目前相較於國安基金的總額5000億應付這樣的一個變化"},{"start":7376.994,"end":7393.984,"text":"你認為足夠嗎跟委員報告因為雖然現在講的是五千億但事實上我們實際上可以用的只有兩千億那以目前的這個市場的規模跟交易的規模來看的話事實上我們在護盤因為我護過三次所以以我的經驗"},{"start":7395.325,"end":7419.475,"text":"我們在戶的時候為什麼大家都說那2000億都沒用完事實上就是因為我們因為額度很小所以我們在戶盤是非常謹慎如果是說碰到大的一些這個外資口袋要夠深 戶盤才有夠力不是口袋掏空了來戶盤而是要有夠深的口袋去戶盤是不是這樣的意思好 謝謝那我們知道了好 那今天請莊部長2000億實在是太低了好 謝謝 請莊部長來 莊部長我們才經歷過"},{"start":7423.937,"end":7436.483,"text":"我們行政院提出了一個特別預算結果立法院本院提出了修正案結果要增加每個民眾普發現金1萬元增加支出2,350億請問後來行政院有照做嗎普發現金1萬做了沒做了有增加舉債額度嗎有叫原來的舉債額度增加嗎有 因為我們有再舉債1千多億"},{"start":7446.687,"end":7459.764,"text":"後來又要被迫因為立法院的決議被迫要再增加舉債1000億好 我們看一下最近地方政府也有民意機關提出在嘉義市議會國民黨團的書獎提出說要求市政府普花3000塊結果要5毛給1塊"},{"start":7463.449,"end":7491.387,"text":"這個嘉義市長說不舉債的方式發六千中央發一萬要舉債多一千億嘉義市不用舉債可以三千變六千部長你有沒有很羨慕嘉義市的財政近年地方政府的財政確實有改善許多有在中央政府的財源的挹注之下以及地方政府的努力之下都增加很多所以他是存在用稅基證與發的"},{"start":7493.017,"end":7518.517,"text":"这个部分因为是属于他们地方自治的一些事项但是我们认为财务资源的运用我们认为应该以政策要优先考量相关的地方建设所以嘉义市政府好像不是只有嘉义市政府特别好本来文明只有嘉义市特别好结果新竹市政府他也在明年度要发5000块你所知道新竹市政府发这5000块普发现金有要增加举债吗"},{"start":7519.608,"end":7547.477,"text":"还是通通让他税基剩余对他这个部分我不太了解他的裁员是来自于隆之裁员还是他自有裁员不只是新竹市 往下看现在台北市 新北市 桃园市台中的六都市长都是国民党籍的结果民进党在议员在民意机关提出了要怎样要提出普发先遷2万1 4万6 1万5 5万不等其中桃园市是市议员提案还不见得哪个党派也通过了"},{"start":7548.617,"end":7554.102,"text":"請問你認為如果六都的市議會通過了要補發現金你認為行政首長 市長會不會照做"},{"start":7557.847,"end":7572.711,"text":"跟委員報告由於他們這樣通過事實上是115年是按照新版就是通過的財化法各地方政府我們可以看到新竹市在中央統籌分配稅款裡面它的成長是達到255%255%新竹縣也達到250幾所以但是有些地方政府根本沒有增加這麼多這就是一個不均衡的問題請問一下你說新竹市嘉義市因為我們"},{"start":7587.256,"end":7605.033,"text":"去年年底12月通的財化法因此他們在明年115年獲配的統統分配稅款大幅增加所以不用舉債就足夠有錢來發現金是這個意思嗎那請問這些六都的四都是不是也是財政很好所以他們議會就可以通過來發現金"},{"start":7608.8,"end":7617.151,"text":"以直轄市來說確實我們來看一下還有還有基隆新竹彰化你剛講新竹縣對不對雲林花蓮哇"},{"start":7618.902,"end":7647.292,"text":"你看看這裡面都是國民黨的縣市長然後提案有兩萬三萬四五千一萬五萬不等其中花蓮縣已經決議通過了新竹縣也是提案通過所以看起來新竹縣就像你說的因為去年12月通過的新版財劃法我們財政部中央政府根據新版財劃法撥給的地方增加很多錢所以他們新竹縣也可以花三萬四花蓮縣也可以花五萬是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":7648.491,"end":7663.929,"text":"他們的中央統籌分配算法確實是倍數成長的好 那這樣我就很奇怪了結果我們去年12月通過的財化法立法院的多數在野黨還不滿足他說還要再播出更多出來我們來看一下"},{"start":7664.895,"end":7689.569,"text":"立法之後要求行政院普發先行1萬元我們要用舉債來支應結果根據立法院通過的去年12月的財化法地方議會他因為發現明年地方貨幣的增加了他做成決議要求地方政府有的發有的不發 奇怪那如果地方議會決定要發地方縣市政府可不可以不執行"},{"start":7691.849,"end":7720.746,"text":"是屬於他們地方自治的事情好 這裡就很有趣了明明有錢民意機關也支持但是到現在很多縣市長好像還沒有決定要執行這跟目前國會多數的在野黨所表達的說行政院 財化法去年12月通過的我們在今年的11月又通過了一個更好的把中央的散財同時 散財更多的那麼他們擔心你們不執行了請問行政院的立場是什麼"},{"start":7721.266,"end":7726.038,"text":"我們來看一下對於11月通過的裁劃法不是去年12月的你們要怎麼做"},{"start":7729.778,"end":7758.237,"text":"委員報告今年11月14號通過的這個財化法他要求是一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款都不能比去年12月的增加更多會更增加到一兆4329億那會比新版就去年底通過的增加2646億將2600多億我們來看一下預算法立法院要遵守預算法立法院當然要 這法律都大家都要遵守快近年目前四個月提出來立法院審議行政院有做了對不對"},{"start":7760.269,"end":7773.098,"text":"對 預算法立法院在明年度開始前一個月要議決現在剩不到一個月了有沒有完成議決目前來說看起來還沒有都還沒有審查都還沒開始審查不可能合乎預算法51條"},{"start":7775.171,"end":7803.507,"text":"在野黨占多數的國會已經明白違反了預算法了然後他還要求怎樣你們現在送來的是根據去年12月的財化法現在立法院的多數就是在野黨要求你們要根據11月的財化法重新編制預算 可以嗎我想明年度的總預算已經在大院那還是請大院能夠交付審查然後可以讓新的施政可以繼續推動好 那我們來看一下除了違反"},{"start":7804.708,"end":7824.495,"text":"你說的大運是立法院違反財政預算法之外我們看財政紀律法他說立法委員所提法律院大幅增加政府稅出或因先指名彌補資金的來源請問本院在11月通過的更新的財政收支劃分法大幅增加了中央政府的支出有沒有"},{"start":7825.576,"end":7850.695,"text":"大幅增加了中央政府的支出是2600億有沒有名補資金的來源有沒有指名沒有而且財政紀律法第7條你也說了各級機關包括立法院在修訂法律的時候不得增訂固定經費額度或比率保障請問去年12月的財化法或今年11月的財化法有沒有這樣做有沒有增訂固定經費額度或比率保障"},{"start":7851.799,"end":7868.624,"text":"这个部分确实对于尤其是今年11月14号通过对于一般性补助款跟计划型补助款都要求不能各县市而且是各县市都不能减少这个会影响到调剂财政营需的问题对不对 额度跟比例保障那这样有没有违反财政纪律法"},{"start":7869.369,"end":7892.26,"text":"我想這個部分光是超過這個公債的比例就已經是更是不只是財政紀律法還有公債法我們看公債法公債法的舉債額度不得超過15%那去年12月的跟今年11月的剛剛已經把你整理出來了去年12月的多了快3000億今年在休的11月又多了2646億增加了5600多億舉債要佔到17.1有沒有違反公債法"},{"start":7898.263,"end":7917.455,"text":"當然違反因為公債法上限是15%財政部可以違反公債法嗎不行公務員都必須要克遵法律財政部可以違反財政紀律法嗎當然也不行啊是法律立法院可以違反預算法嗎所有公職人員都不能違反法律包括立法院是好那請問吃這個也養吃那個也養"},{"start":7919.212,"end":7940.109,"text":"要不你就是違反立法院通過的財化法要不你就是違反立法院通過的預算法財政機率法跟公債法你覺得你選擇要違反哪一個我們都不可以違背法律那你怎麼辦你那個也不違法這個也不違法都做不到啊那我們往下看現在的問題啊我們剛剛看到那個情況中央要"},{"start":7942.013,"end":7960.848,"text":"執行立法院通過的普發現金一萬塊要舉債地方議會通過要普發現金是不用舉債地方政府很有錢用稅計證明就可以了還有人敢不發結果立法院通過的財政收支法方法要你違法舉債再分配給地方政府你覺得這是不是劫貧濟富"},{"start":7962.641,"end":7977.911,"text":"在分配上不均衡的结果就是让富者更富但是然后真正比较财政弱的现实没有获得补助而且也让中央的财政失去了韧性这样的情况违法违宪这是你财政部可以说的吗"},{"start":7979.861,"end":8000.248,"text":"我想財政部不管怎麼樣都必須在合法這個不是你財政部說的這是憲法大法官4-391號說的因為根據我們的憲法59條根據70條所以4-391做成了如果立法院做出了剛剛所說的事情不用需要財政部來說他違法違憲大法官就說他違法違憲了你同意嗎"},{"start":8002.89,"end":8023.019,"text":"當然憲法上的爭議是由大法官的憲法法庭來審議這不是未來 過去就有講過了未來現在憲法庭癱瘓了那這邊可以了最後一個小事情拜託小規模營業人導入行動支付的營業稅優惠我們講了很久了部長來得及在今年年底定案我們明年有機會來宣導進行嗎"},{"start":8024.78,"end":8038.769,"text":"我知道這個案子我們複稅署已經簽出來目前還在做一個更細緻的一個好 那妳上次答應我11月底為目標達成了沒目前來說已經進度是到滿前面所以妳核定了嗎目前還沒有到那個署長怎麼會問署長的是"},{"start":8041.651,"end":8064.679,"text":"不是說在你桌上在我桌上嗎沒有 這個部分來 署長講一下這個問現在在誰那裡什麼時候可以公告請署長盡量回答是 報告委員這個案件因為我們為了做細緻化處理中間有一些法律上的意見目前我們已經又再沉上去了正在沉上去在你跟部長之間要不我去找一找你們之間有一張空文嗎在誰那裡"},{"start":8066.74,"end":8091.796,"text":"我回去盡快看部長 這個我已經聽兩個星期了我真的要把你們兩個之間找到看有沒有紙要掉在地上一紙公文送出了財政負稅署還沒到達部長室那到底這紙公文在哪裡部長 可不可以承諾本週內給我們一個明確的答案 可以嗎我想本週內給您一個答案一定是可以那年底前我們把它完成好嗎好 謝謝中委員接下來我們請林思敏召委"},{"start":8102.537,"end":8109.839,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉我請部長還有我們副主席長好 請莊部長 陳副主席長部長早部長先就教你財政收支劃分法的問題我想立法院在12月5號依法否決財劃法的附議這是主院長"},{"start":8131.146,"end":8155.064,"text":"任內第八次的復議案遭否決也創下中華民國憲政史上的壯舉根據憲法正修條文第三條第二項規定行政院對立法院的決議應接受行政院卻公開宣稱沒有必須執行的壓力甚至強調不會不能執行違法的法案"},{"start":8156.684,"end":8180.397,"text":"我想憲法並未賦予行政院擇取所欲執行法律的權利行政院長身為我們最高的行政機關首長公開宣稱拒絕執行挑戰我國憲政體制的根本所以我要就教部長還有副主席長行政院公然抗拒立法院刪除通過的法律你認同嗎你們兩位認同嗎"},{"start":8183.613,"end":8205.185,"text":"跟委員報告立法院三讀通過的法律後續有關憲政上的一些程序在憲法上有所規定那對於11月14號三讀通過的財化法的再修正版那我們在附議裡面很清楚的提到就是說因為這樣的一個擴大釋出會讓中央政府必須再增加舉債2646億那再加上115年總預算必須要再舉債2992億的情況下"},{"start":8213.069,"end":8240.224,"text":"它就違反了公債法的流量上限規定它是至愛難行因此行政院提出復議希望我們立法院能夠再能夠審慎的再去考量這樣的一個事情那當然還有相關的補助性一般性的補助款跟計畫型的補助款相關的分配也有它的至愛難行之處這個復議理由都寫得很清楚剛才您在尋找的時候已經歷次說明了很多你的一個看法"},{"start":8241.474,"end":8267.703,"text":"其實我想大家可以說各說其事當然我的想法很簡單就是部長還有主席長那到底現在是這種狀況之下法案已經三讀通過了你們是支持左院長在復議已經被否決之後然後你還繼續為他做政治背書認為即便法案三讀通過我們也不尊重立法院所通過的法律嗎"},{"start":8271.819,"end":8288.285,"text":"跟委員報告就是說就我們主計總署來說就是說我們就是依法行政那目前通過的版本主要是考慮到它違反了公共債務法所以因為我們不能違法所以目前就沒有辦法來執行"},{"start":8289.605,"end":8306.42,"text":"是 所以我剛才一直強調各說其是 從憲法的角度行政院沒有拒絕立法院所刪除通過法律的這樣的一個行政舉措它是不能抗拒的"},{"start":8307.401,"end":8332.198,"text":"你這樣根本就是違憲我想法律的位階是低於憲法之下既然憲法規定那麼清楚立法院三讀通過的法律就要去予以執行也沒有經過大法官解釋說這部法律是違憲的一個情況之下行政院可以抗拒嗎其實我個人看法是不可以所以行政院如果可以單方面認定法律違法而拒絕執行"},{"start":8333.579,"end":8349.273,"text":"這已經讓國家讓中華民國政府形成一個專制的政府是一個獨裁的政府而否決立法院依照多數民意所定的一個法案也否決了立法院制衡與監督的角色"},{"start":8350.254,"end":8363.568,"text":"所以我還是希望不管是財政部還是主計總署你們三思而行還是要依法行政依憲法來行政另外我想問一下財政部宣稱修法後補助款增加至5450"},{"start":8368.452,"end":8387.487,"text":"5455億元需超限舉債2646億元超出我們年度的公共債務法的舉債上限導致這個債限破表就剛才你們一直強調的所以我想請問就是說針對這些財務的推估我們是否有對外有完整的揭露"},{"start":8388.408,"end":8391.731,"text":"妳這個推估有完整揭露嗎我們有詳細的說明第一個就是11月14號通過的這個財化法它的要求第一個中央統籌分配稅款其實在去年的通過以後那這一次的編列達到8800億"},{"start":8403.459,"end":8424.967,"text":"那又要求各縣市的一般性補助款以及计划型補助款都不能减少那就是2501亿2501亿的一般性補助款跟计划型補助款2954亿所以整体加起来是一兆4329亿这个数字很清楚是 部长这些数字是否有经过独立的审计验证"},{"start":8426.613,"end":8440.348,"text":"第一個統籌分配稅款這個部分我們在年初的時候就已經算出來了那但是有關一般性就是年中的時候不是年初抱歉那一般性補助款跟計畫性補助款這個是根據主總計算所以你是有這個經過審計驗證出來的一個數字是不是"},{"start":8444.401,"end":8465.772,"text":"因為我們跟委員報告主要就是說一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款它基本上都是一種延續性的計畫所以我們按照這個以往的這個經驗來推估算出這個總數所以是依照以往的經驗來推估所以我是希望說行政院或者財政部或主席總署"},{"start":8467.393,"end":8481.839,"text":"你可否 你不是說依照經驗來推估但是實際上它這個要驗證實際去驗證它所以可否將這些財務推估完整的揭露你是如何去依照過去的經驗來推估"},{"start":8482.599,"end":8497.011,"text":"跟文報就是說這些計畫項目事實上我們在115年度在通知地方政府編列預算的時候所有的計畫項目都有通知地方政府所以我們就依照這些計畫項目來計算我還是要強調最後的結論"},{"start":8505.157,"end":8522.678,"text":"行政院與財政部一再主張修法導致國家破產中央無法編預算概念的說法是這樣其實外界也一直認為說這樣的做法是刻意操弄財政黑洞與破產說但是財化法的修法核心我還是要再強調一下"},{"start":8523.739,"end":8543.592,"text":"財政收支劃分法它修法的核心目的是來調整中央與地方財源的不足就要落實財政民主與地方自決但是我們看到目前修法前確實許多縣市財政困難仍嚴重依賴中央一般及計畫性補助來穩定我們地方的一個財政困境"},{"start":8544.732,"end":8565.839,"text":"所以我還是希望部長跟主席長你們三思既然我們財務法現在已經三讀通過了讓它先實行一段時間如果有需要再去調未來有需要再調整的我們再來做相關的一個按照財政部的版本來做相關的一個審議還是讓它實行一段期間"},{"start":8570,"end":8594.008,"text":"現在請市長 阮市長部長跟副市長請回好 請阮市長市長 我們今天討論的有關國安基金規模的上限從五千萬變成一兆我們除了現在因為美國對等關稅算為塵埃落定所以我們國安基金在市場內過去有八次進場的紀錄是"},{"start":8596.95,"end":8614.729,"text":"從簡報上這些數字上來看平均投入的金額大概約445億投入的最短的天數第一次的5天 只有5天而已以及第8次最長是275天一次是在2000年 一次是在2022年"},{"start":8617.011,"end":8637.75,"text":"那次長你對外曾經提到希望像公股銀行借款的融資上限從2000億提高到7000億你對外曾經這樣說過這個不是我提的不是你提的 沒關係但是我們股市的運作除了黑天鵝的因素外其實漲漲跌跌它很正常"},{"start":8638.871,"end":8660.389,"text":"很正常所以現在外資約在我們台股4成左右但是這些資金本來每天就是有進有出如果說怕這些外資會非常嚴重的影響股市那國安基金不是每天要進場嗎所以我要問次長為何需要提高高達我們進場平均值445億約15倍的資金金額"},{"start":8665.604,"end":8683.315,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在那個目前的可以用的金額在2000億這個是25年前那時候就訂了但是剛才委員自己也提到就是說目前的我們的股市的規模不是規模"},{"start":8685.436,"end":8711.749,"text":"那麼那時候在89年的時候那時候大概是9.2兆現在已經達到97兆所以成長10.5倍這是一個第二個外資當時是只有8.14% 部長沒關係我知道這個我都知道了其實我們講就是你現在要增加這個金額你要去依照去估算過去最適合的金額是多少"},{"start":8712.529,"end":8721.022,"text":"他們看這8次的經驗最多一次的投資是1227億最少是7.56億所以米兆過去的經驗看來要從5000億增加到1兆"},{"start":8726.284,"end":8753.581,"text":"這合不合理我跟委員報告過去大家都講是說都沒有用到兩千億那因為兩千億它是一個天花板所以我們在操作的時候就會考慮到說我們會不會就是超過這個天花板因為操作的時候會非常的保守我知道大概因為時間的關係因為這一次的修法因為你們沒有版本行政院沒有版本雖然沒有版本但我知道我最後想問你"},{"start":8754.542,"end":8774.549,"text":"因為剛才賴市保委員也提到是不是我們要先就先開公聽會廣納專家學者及社會各界的意見作為我們修法的參考這個當然這個你同不同意這個看委員會的決議不過我跟委員報告雖然是說這一次沒有願版但是這一次雖然是委員提的版本"},{"start":8775.049,"end":8796.789,"text":"但是行政院就這個案子來講我們表達非常清楚明確的立場所以對這個案子完全沒有模糊的沒有模糊的空間所以我們對這個案子來講所以你是贊成這一次的修法你是贊成基本上是就整個我們就國安基金來講不用再召開公聽會了"},{"start":8798.258,"end":8805.342,"text":"這個看委員會的決議如果可以都聽取的話 也許是個好事謝謝 我是建議還是開一下比較好謝謝謝謝澤偉 謝謝市長"},{"start":8824.918,"end":8830.223,"text":"接下來我們請李坤成委員質詢請謝主席我們請莊部長還有阮次長請部長跟次長"},{"start":8839.028,"end":8855.714,"text":"委員好部長好 市長好因為本席這次針對國安基金有提案不過在問這個之前我先問一下我們普發現金到現在從11月12號開始到現在已經將近一個月了不曉得現在普發現金的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":8857.366,"end":8867.957,"text":"五發現金現在非常的順利那目前已經有超過2000萬的人已經領了超過2000萬喔對 已經超過2000萬的民眾已經領了大概我們昨天算到大概超過85%的民眾已經領了因為我們這裡面有那領的方式咧"},{"start":8877.126,"end":8901.272,"text":"領的方式裡面第一個透過網路登記入帳的有42.55%是最高那其次就是ATM領的就是24.16%比例是這麼高那另外我們有直接入帳也就是他有固定領政府津貼的部分有22.75%就是說他不需要去做任何事我們就直接劃入了他的帳號"},{"start":8902.052,"end":8906.217,"text":"大概有458萬那到郵局領獻的是10.28%是207萬的民眾已經領了所以總共已經超過2000萬的民眾已經領了大概數字多少 2000萬多少2000萬 你說實際的數字是多少對 目前 2012萬我們算到昨天下午是2012萬"},{"start":8923.255,"end":8929.059,"text":"那佔預估的人口我們大概預估是2,356萬4,696人大概佔了85%以上的人所以一個月就是大概有85%人有領到這個1萬塊了一個月了因為我記得是11月12號到現在將近一個月了那速度還滿快的目前執行起來有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":8948.207,"end":8973.256,"text":"最近起來沒有什麼大問題好 那我就來問國安基金了這個國安基金本席的提案就是說本來現在是五千億實際上就是銀行是兩千億四大基金是三千億所以我們提案是增加到一兆其中是把銀行借款的部分從兩千億增加到七千億就增加五千億我們四大基金的地方我們就不去動 不去處理了"},{"start":8974.476,"end":8999.195,"text":"主要就是說一些客觀數字來看剛剛其實次長 部長也都有提到就是說我們現在的上市櫃公司的市值已經97兆了跟89年成立的時候那時候是才9.2兆已經成長了10.5倍而且我們的外資也不斷的持股的比例也不斷的增加然後就算從今年的4月9號"},{"start":9002.277,"end":9026.633,"text":"國安基金進場後盤到現在11月底外資累計賣超達到3940億其實已經遠超過國安基金的2000億了所以雖然現在只有我原版就是我跟郭國文委員的版本我再問一下次長您是執行秘書對於國安基金增加從5000億增加到1兆我們這個"},{"start":9031.536,"end":9042.22,"text":"次長您的看法我剛才有報告過那麼這一個案子雖然行政院沒有提版本但是由委員還有另外就是郭委員來提的"},{"start":9044.161,"end":9055.647,"text":"但是這一次我們才就是行政院有表達非常清楚的立場針對這個案子我們基本上是贊成的你們立場就是贊成好支持所以其實提案這個理由客觀數據都寫得很清楚絕對不是危言聳聽說什麼兩岸戰爭了所以我們才要把這一個"},{"start":9069.093,"end":9095.503,"text":"國安基金把他的金額可以提高因為其實 因為剛剛委員有在問就是說你有2000億也夠用但是你是省著用因為你有2000億而已是只有2000億所以委員謝謝你讓我有機會說明我們因為在操作的時候因為我們是考慮到那個上限所以我們都會省著用我看你都很省著用你等於是用很少的這些錢來做點火對 點火"},{"start":9097.524,"end":9117.965,"text":"因為不知道後面還有沒有更大的攻盤的現象所以我們在用的時候前面通膽都會比較省但是這樣做法就會影響到我們護盤的功能一定會影響到功能所以說現在把你的上限提高其實就是讓你的子彈增加因為未來會面臨到什麼樣的情況其實不知道"},{"start":9118.845,"end":9134.397,"text":"但是至少讓國人知道說我們國安基金有增加了表示說是政府對於這個股市是非常重視的因為股市會影響到這個所謂的經濟和一般的民心所以我是認為應該是增加到一兆 這個妥當"},{"start":9139.381,"end":9155.938,"text":"財政部包含執行秘書 次長你也認為現在行政院的態度就是表示支持就對了是另外我跟委員包括剛才委員提到一個很重要的問題有些委員有說我們這次提的時候是不是有特殊的實際考量"},{"start":9157.259,"end":9181.778,"text":"那我是覺得一碼歸一碼沒有 因為不是願板 是我委員提的就是兩件事情跟這個所謂的明年的所謂的什麼特別預算其實是完全是兩件事情我覺得沒有 因為其實很單純如果今天是有願板那願板就是你提出來你可能你有的 你都考量那現在很單純就是我跟郭國文兩個的版本那我當召委我就這時候排出來"},{"start":9182.859,"end":9197.506,"text":"沒有什麼樣的一個動機也不是說什麼兩岸有什麼樣的問題沒有 我們是希望說讓政府的子彈多一點讓投資人多一些信心就這樣而已不過我再請教一下啦我們現在的這一個這一次的護盤的時間是從4月9號開始"},{"start":9201.243,"end":9219.479,"text":"到現在11月了對不對還在 國外經濟還在所以還在的主要理由是不是因為關稅都還沒有確定因為當時進場的時候就是在剛好台美對等關稅對等關稅宣布以後那時候就是我們不是大跌了2000多點"},{"start":9220.58,"end":9225.004,"text":"然後第二天也是一樣大跌所以那時候經過委員會議決議就要進場因為這個當時進場的原因還沒有消失因為台美的租稅的關稅的談判還沒有簽協議所以我們不知道結果到底怎麼樣"},{"start":9238.536,"end":9265.376,"text":"那外界的反應會怎麼樣如果反應如果是很大家非常的可以接受的話我們會建議就是國安基金管理委員會開會那麼來檢討退場的事宜好 那請問一下那我們是跟這個台灣銀行來借款嗎是不是目前是這樣那是有借才要付利息沒有借要不要付利息要 沒有借要付利息那我們一年利息現在是付多少"},{"start":9266.202,"end":9268.458,"text":"對不起 利息 沒有借也要付利息"},{"start":9269.773,"end":9297.522,"text":"沒有借沒有啊我剛有聽委員問說沒有借的話一年要付70幾億利息來你講清楚沒借也要付利息嗎沒有借當然不付那為什麼他就用5000億來跟你算一年要付70幾億的利息你講清楚但是他不讓我講所以沒有借當然就沒有付利息的問題我們現在就說借多少那就按照多少去算利息"},{"start":9297.822,"end":9316.387,"text":"對 應該是借多少然後利息算多少不可能說沒有借而且這個兩千億是台灣銀行就是預計跟銀行借三千億是這個四大基金所以也不可能用五千億去算對啊 我剛剛看你說你是好像沒有時間回答所以我在這個地方讓你問清楚所以不可能說你有70幾億的利息"},{"start":9318.368,"end":9343.281,"text":"不可能嘛對 沒錯好 那我再請教一下因為剛好 那次長請回我請教部長因為其實上次我在質詢的時候有提到說因為我們現在普發現金就是有很多的一個方法可以領那時候我有提到說一個國民的單一帳戶的制度就是說小孩出生我們就給他一個帳戶然後如果政府有類似這一種"},{"start":9345.502,"end":9358.349,"text":"補貼補助的話都可以匯到這個帳戶來所以也防止詐騙那也簡單清楚然後我剛好看到說美國川普總統他有一個川普的帳戶"},{"start":9360.15,"end":9381.404,"text":"這個川普賬戶他是說只要小孩子一出生然後政府當然他的任期之內政府會給予這一個1000美金這個種子基金然後除了政府給的之外你家庭成員也可以提撥然後雇主也可以提撥那這樣的方式這筆錢你都不能動用你必須要滿18歲的時候你才可以作為你的購房教育創業"},{"start":9390.21,"end":9410.602,"text":"這些用途才可以使用它基本上是給小孩的第一桶金那也鼓勵企業來投資也鼓勵父母來投資孩子的未來然後這個就是等於是用複利的一個效果讓孩子們這一出生到18歲之後可以累積他的第一桶金那我請問一下 這個部長"},{"start":9413.624,"end":9433.395,"text":"你覺得我們台灣要不要有類似的這一種我們給小孩子零歲出生我們就給他的賬物我們給他第一桶金然後藉由政府 家庭 企業一起來讓我們的孩子下一代在18歲之後至少他有第一桶金可以使用家長的負擔也不會那麼重"},{"start":9435.344,"end":9456.618,"text":"謝謝委員 我想委員這樣的一個建議事實上也因應了現在少子女化的一個情況然後有一個兒少我們這邊兒少是有一個單一帳戶但並不是全部 那是一個志願性的並不是強制它不是有條件限制嗎我記得它有條件限制好像是中低收入戶"},{"start":9458.151,"end":9483.186,"text":"沒有 沒有限制我想這個部分因為涉及到內政部跟教育部我們想這個部分我們會再來聯繫到進一步再跟委員做說明我是希望說剛好有這一個川普賬戶可以作為參考你剛才講那個我記得這個內政部我以前記得就是說有但是那個好像有這個限制所以那個申請的那個賬戶的人家庭數也很少"},{"start":9483.686,"end":9500.94,"text":"跟這個普遍的每一個小孩子他出生就有一個帳戶政府投資 企業投資那個完全不一樣是不同的概念你們去研究一下好不好謝謝委員了解我們在因為我上次有提到你們說要跟這個國發會做研究我也不曉得到底後來你當時是用全體國民有一個單一帳戶那這邊又是國民單一帳戶跟兒少這個部分"},{"start":9505.464,"end":9517.629,"text":"好 你們來想一下好不好好 謝謝謝謝李崑禎召委謝謝主席接下來請陳玉珍委員質詢謝謝主席我們有請財政部請莊部長謝謝"},{"start":9535.305,"end":9550.126,"text":"委員好 部長好 我們有提出一個初餐公共建設 影子路公建擴大租稅抵減 公建類別新增影視音設施 綠燈設施 數位建設"},{"start":9552.589,"end":9567.302,"text":"那衛生福利部事實上也有訂這個就是機構住宿式的這個服務的長照這個機構是一個重大公共建設範圍要符合中央衛生主管機關公告衛生園區資源不足地區比如說金門然後土地開發面積達2公頃總投資為5億元"},{"start":9572.927,"end":9583.924,"text":"那請問這個修正以後是不是代表說如果我們民間有民間願意在我們金門投資設立住宿型長照機構都可以被列入重大公共建設計畫的範圍內我們基本是符合這個跟委會報告"},{"start":9588.672,"end":9602.045,"text":"重大公共建設範圍是出產法裡面有一個規定然後那個重大公共建設範圍怎麼樣去定義由各目的事業主管機關去訂定它的門檻如果符合它所定義的重大公共建設的計畫的範圍的話"},{"start":9603.727,"end":9620.2,"text":"那他就有相關的優惠的措施包含租稅我知道那為何不因為今天沒有來因為這個主要是你們主管的金門現在是一個屬於醫療資源不足的地區我在說你們這個案子很好我想說我們金門如果這樣子是不是有符合"},{"start":9620.94,"end":9642.762,"text":"如果這個金門是不是符合我覺得要回去看他的那個所訂的你們的規定是這樣子啊還是你請這位旁邊這位是處長的喔市長好 市長麻煩您那有關那個住宿市長照機構的一個重大公共建設的一個門檻他必須符合投資金額不含土地達到新台幣3.5億元以下"},{"start":9644.343,"end":9662.794,"text":"3.5億元對3.5億還有就是說他提供的一個床位的規模要達到100人以上那另外還有他的那個總樓地板面積必須達到2700平方公尺以上而且每個人配置的面積不可以少於27平方公尺好那這中間還是要一個面積限制金額嘛面積嘛請問財政部因為國產署也在這裡這個"},{"start":9668.308,"end":9679.262,"text":"基本很多土地因為戰地政務解除後很多地就變成了國有地那如果民間投資符合這個重大公建計畫的話是不是也可以把這些零星的公有土地讓售給這個申請人可以嗎"},{"start":9681.072,"end":9696.771,"text":"報告委員可以因為國產法國有土地的取得如果民間他有興辦事業計畫需要的話是可以來跟我們申請委託經營的我是說土地的讓售讓售的話當然不能超過1650500坪"},{"start":9698.713,"end":9718.611,"text":"一樣是1650對 但是我們可以提供那個剛剛講的委託經營大概一個時期大概是三四年這樣160的話這個面積會符合這個重大公共建設計畫因為這個面積算是不大像樓地板面積到時候這個處三四那邊會符合嗎等於是因為這邊沒什麼土地大部分都是政府的"},{"start":9719.452,"end":9737.214,"text":"那這樣子會符合重大公設計畫嗎你的樓益版面積他定義的部分包括投資金額當然面積的話是公司合併計算那個我想沒有影響OK 所以好 謝謝那財政部要麻煩你們再幫我們多介紹一些看有沒有人願意到金門做一些重大的這個"},{"start":9738.135,"end":9761.945,"text":"公共建設投資那是不是也提供一些誘因政策上誘因比如說在租稅上要有一些優惠不然的話尤其長照的部分這在金門來講金門老齡化高齡化很嚴重那如果說又是偏遠離島如果在政策上沒有多給一點優惠的話一點誘因不管是租稅不管是租稅方面土地方面各方面的誘因的話是比較少的人願意到金門去做相關大的這個"},{"start":9762.825,"end":9782.711,"text":"公共建設 尤其是長照的部分這個財政部是不是可以幫我們研擬一些相關的優惠方案道理導序比較辛苦不管是興建或是什麼各方面都比較辛苦報告委員國有財產為了配合國家推動長照政策我們有推了一個叫做指定產業設定地上權"},{"start":9785.532,"end":9800.946,"text":"那如果金門有人願意去投資那我們如果有適當的土地他是可以有比較低的潛力金的這個計費的收費方式是有這樣的一個機制不過長照大家也都知道"},{"start":9802.287,"end":9821.88,"text":"它的获利性比较低对然后所以在租税方面财政部这边还有门槛最主要是门槛因为现在规定是要财团法人医疗机构式的财团法人不是一般的公司行号可以受制的OK 那这个租税方面呢财政部是不是可以提供一些租税上的诱因"},{"start":9823.248,"end":9835.244,"text":"主要是重大公共建設範圍的話那在租稅上它就是有優惠的那另外衛福部對於長照也有相關的補助那另外在所得稅的部分扣除我也可以已經從12萬調到18萬這是剛通過的"},{"start":9839.108,"end":9867.347,"text":"但是我覺得還是同樣的條件如果條件跟本島一樣沒有人要去離島啦大家也知道嘛這個獲利比較差離島的成本比較高人員比較不好取得嘛那這邊請部長是不是責成這個相關的包括租稅方面 土地方面出產市方面幫我們想一些方法好嗎在法律運行方面多想一些優因讓相關的單位願意到金門去做相關的投資啊不然一樣條件大家都要留在台灣做啊 對不對"},{"start":9868.488,"end":9875.777,"text":"這個是不是請部長多幫忙是 謝謝多久內可以幫我想出一些你們的這個因為畢竟公務部門人才幾級"},{"start":9877.189,"end":9897.745,"text":"對 那我想我們在出差這個地方我們會把相關的一些優惠把它羅列出來那鼓勵民間去那邊做投資這是優惠羅列出來我要想是更進一步的比本島還要更優惠一點的誘因啦這個恐怕要結合衛福部好 那在你想一下 我給你現在12月可不可以再過年前給我啊"},{"start":9899.041,"end":9917.237,"text":"給我們三個月時間可以嗎三個月好麻煩您謝謝還有部長以前我們金門小山東碼頭是一個小的碼頭就相對航扇大樓比較小現在我們已經蓋了一棟新的大樓預計在1月底開始啟用原來在疫情前"},{"start":9918.018,"end":9932.154,"text":"我們政府的這個台銀跟土銀都在原來的水頭碼頭的那個小三通港口那個口岸都有社會辦理人民幣的兌換服務那疫情過後就沒有了就是就已經沒有銀行在水頭碼頭做這個社會的辦理這個兌換的服務那"},{"start":9936.238,"end":9962.404,"text":"我們新的這個大樓在1月底大概明年的1月中 1月底會開始落成啟用那大陸客現在因為有開放到金門觀光所以觀光客每天也是最多有到一天來到7000人嘛那很多金門的鄉親或是小山東經過金門的這個台灣鄉親也會從這裡過去那事實上有很也是有一定的換匯需求那台銀土銀這個部分是不是準備要入住到新的這個旅客服務中心提供換匯的服務"},{"start":9963.912,"end":9978.704,"text":"是不是會後容我們由國庫署在跟那個土銀跟台銀了解好不好我跟您說一下事實上我已經有了解了就是說好像我們現在金門的土銀跟台銀土銀最近剛剛又合併了土銀跟台銀對去設這個好像意願缺缺因為稍微"},{"start":9979.825,"end":9998.743,"text":"稍微因為碼頭比較遠一點可能要輪流去上班在地的那種距離感的話很多人可能不願意但這個可能還是需要財政部的大力的支持由上而下因為民眾的確有這個需求然後另外在這個這個桃園機場的部分你看喔台灣銀行現在在桃園機場有六台的這個"},{"start":9999.824,"end":10006.71,"text":"台外幣現鈔的兌換機這是一個新型的換匯如果說這是一個新型的換匯的機制如果說真的是因為人員調度困難或是不願意的話是不是也比照這個桃園機場在桃園機場也是有設這種新型的換匯機因為金門也算是一個很頻繁的國門"},{"start":10024.806,"end":10047.268,"text":"經過的人也很多每天也大概六七千人節假日的時候甚至來回都有一萬多人事實上這個需求是有的我們也讓合法的管道可以暢通所以像你看這種新型的外幣兌換的機器可以在金門裝幾台週休日銀行沒有營業的時候也可以換貨這個應該算是很容易的事情"},{"start":10049.317,"end":10075.798,"text":"我們會後再跟台銀再來評估一下我們再請他們來評估一下好不好不用評估 兩台機器在國門總是小事一樁第一個就是說最好是平常就有人然後機器如果有的話如果裝的夠多老百姓可以正常的換會的話真的沒有人也還算是還可以 您懂我意思嗎那最好是當然一定要有人所以你這個最好兩樣都有"},{"start":10078.44,"end":10086.104,"text":"委員的訴求我們一定會去表達這個是有需求民眾有需求盡快跟我回答好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝委員好謝謝陳玉珍委員我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":10716.616,"end":10739.045,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會我們請下一位羅明財委員主席各位出列席官員大好主席可不可以請國安基金的執行秘書阮清華 阮市長"},{"start":10743.795,"end":10768.728,"text":"行政院的副主席長委員好陳副主席長25年前本席在一樓那時候金管會跟財政部門有分家的時候在一樓我們在那邊通過了國安基金的一個設置條例"},{"start":10770.868,"end":10784.362,"text":"成功的扮演的救火隊的角色歷年來都有很多重大的國際變動的情況你也知道什麼時候可以動用國安基金"},{"start":10785.993,"end":10814.36,"text":"國安基金條例都有明確規定比如說碰到重大的事件國際的因素或者是特別政治變化等等因素然後大家信心不足然後股市就崩跌了這種話所以國安基金它扮演一個非常成功稱職的角色過去它的規模很小就大概8兆左右所以我們當初的考量"},{"start":10815.06,"end":10830.673,"text":"就是大概週轉率大概算一算大概是3%到5%可以維持一定一天的那個量都還OK當然不是說讓你一次都用盡記得以前最會操盤的大概是財政部部長他是試兩波千金"},{"start":10834.738,"end":10855,"text":"他就聞風不動 早上7點半突然通知所有的媒體 記者 財經記者就是守在財政部舊的辦公室外面那個地方請大家喝豆漿 吃燒餅油條大家都想說有什麼事情要發布"},{"start":10856.923,"end":10881.134,"text":"他說沒有 沒有過一陣子就說有一些委員都會到現場來所以就一場騷動所以這個鵝魚我炸就是這樣四兩撥千斤的一毛錢都沒動隔天就翻漲所以國安基金的設置他必須要膽子夠大"},{"start":10882.233,"end":10904.958,"text":"他必須要震得住整個規模他必須要讓市場有信心現在國安金的推動當初跟現在比起來是這個市況不一樣現在都快100兆差很多了快100兆了對 現在100兆現在政府基期是不是在做多"},{"start":10906.389,"end":10926.808,"text":"沒有所謂做多的問題我們基本上 國安基金基本上是維護股市的穩定維護投資人的信心沒有像剛才委員講的那種情況不過就是先穩定嘛 穩定了以後再做多"},{"start":10927.569,"end":10948.923,"text":"也不會做多其實我們有 官方基金有限制因為我們買跌不買漲市長 你也客氣啦當然你的心理就是扮演好你的角色在全世界每一個國家當然都希望股市可以欣欣向榮蓬勃發展因為股市是經濟的櫥窗嘛你股市好 做得棒"},{"start":10949.463,"end":10968.185,"text":"你執政就不會有什麼太大的一個牽連或者是負面的影響所以全民財富就增加你有沒有算過從25年到現在市場規模多了快90兆平均一個股民賺了多少錢"},{"start":10969.613,"end":10982.584,"text":"我是沒有算因為這個很難算為什麼因為每一個人的投資的績效都不太一樣有些人可能是用當沖的方式那有些是長期投資我們現在開戶的這個戶數有多少這個部分因為我沒有去計算一千兩百多戶吧一千兩百多萬戶因為有重複開戶的應該有機會比較有經常在這個"},{"start":10998.069,"end":11020.774,"text":"买卖股市的流动性比较多的正常户大概有多少这一部分因为都是金管会在主管大概有四五百万户所以其实在台湾的经济方面股市是很热络的意思都是这样子所以分析一位既然你刚刚讲的安定很重要"},{"start":11022.954,"end":11047.659,"text":"凡是整個台灣之於全世界我們的確要加強一個強心劑所以過去是大概國安基金的借錢什麼規模是五千億今天有人提到大概就是債錢到一兆其實如果相比過去的倍數來說的話"},{"start":11049.195,"end":11069.907,"text":"大概是成長了快十倍左右所以十倍 照理說應該要五兆但是我覺得五兆可能恐怕現在目前的財政情況還有點小困難所以本席提出的是兩兆兩兆的規模或者是三兆"},{"start":11071.144,"end":11085.176,"text":"市長你覺得兩兆好還是三兆好我感謝委員長期關注股市我現在跟委員報告一下民國89年的時候如果用5000億來算的話"},{"start":11087.017,"end":11100.45,"text":"那時候它跟市值的佔比大概百分之五點四三五點多五點四三那我們現在假定提高到一兆一兆的話如果跟現在的市值來比的話它佔比大概百分之1.03"},{"start":11102.251,"end":11120.556,"text":"其實是滿低的但是我的意思是說有時候如果提得太高也有一些後遺症 為什麼如果你提太高如果你進場入馬太多的話出場也會有退場的時候也會有一些會影響股市的這些狀況其實國安基金很多人都是覺得它很神秘"},{"start":11123.218,"end":11143.578,"text":"從這20年來它的績效評比來說很多股民說你現在快3萬點了很多股民多數還是苦哈哈沒有賺到錢所以很多人就說來一個傻瓜投資法就跟著國安基金走讓你想要什麼通通有市長"},{"start":11146.007,"end":11173.096,"text":"你總共操盤大概有幾次我這個超過 這個是第三次這次是第九次就是從國安卿 因為還有前任以前曾明聰 曾主委那時候當次長 他有操盤超過我是協助 那時候是協助你有在場但是我獨立操作大概三次你三次 全部加起來有幾次全部加起來九次九次喔 有九次裡面大概獲利有沒有超過20%的"},{"start":11176.334,"end":11196.359,"text":"有好幾個都超過20%對 都超過20%所以很多人說你們很厲害然後你剛剛講說買了你們希望就是要退場其實你在第一次就是前8次 前9次的時候你們那時候有沒有買台積電"},{"start":11198.88,"end":11223.276,"text":"我不方便在這邊公開講那你可以不要回答那你們有買很多的台積電當初如果買台積電你買了那你不要賣放到現在那不是替國家賺更多的錢嗎而且還有一點你賺的這些錢累積了以後你不見得一定要百分之百繳國庫"},{"start":11225.057,"end":11241.272,"text":"本席認為你覺得這個基金規模不夠那你可以一半繳國庫一半就留著次長你有沒有算過你9次的操盤如果每一次都累積50%到現在大概有多少金額"},{"start":11242.526,"end":11258.235,"text":"累積到現在 對如果是說都不賣是吧就是你有賺有賠那賺的比較多就如果每一次都結清累積到現在賺的部分有多少這個沒有去算過好 那翻譯句話說不要說50%9次算下來總共賺了多少錢"},{"start":11262.657,"end":11286.797,"text":"五百六十幾 五百六十四億五百多億所以你如果說一半的話是留兩百五十億左右放在你的國安基金裡面以備不時之需我跟委員報告目前的國安基金的規定是說它如果經過委員會決議通過以後基本上是繳庫因為放在國安基金國安基金因為已經退場"},{"start":11287.518,"end":11313.172,"text":"你也不能再做任何的用途只能存到銀行裡面生利息就等於是說浪費那個資源所以如果是說要做別的用途那可能就是大家要共識而且可能會涉及到修法的問題資源到底要怎麼運用但是如果是從國庫的管理來看我們基本上是支持統修統資比較不希望這個為了長治久安"},{"start":11316.033,"end":11329.362,"text":"然後這個國安基金是一個非常重要的信心的指標本席建議提高到兩兆的規模如果大家有故事的話因為比例上剛剛都已經討論過你要往兩兆的目標來努力"},{"start":11333.018,"end":11359.841,"text":"那國庫缺不缺錢我想因為我們是借錢我們是跟金融機構來借貸那如果是提高到一點假定是兩兆兩兆 對兩兆的話那就等於是說假定四大基金那三千億還是維持等於換句話說貸款就要達到1.7兆那1.7兆的話可能就是說單家的金融機構可能就吃不下來"},{"start":11360.741,"end":11377.504,"text":"可能就是到時候可能還在安排可能就是會有一些貸款的一些問題你氣勢如虹才可以匆匆容容你要有底氣啊你如果當個小氣財神大家覺得不痛不癢信心不足啊而且"},{"start":11378.479,"end":11406.509,"text":"如果今天可以確定通過兩兆的國安基金我相信台灣的股市馬上就會飛躍三萬點有沒有信心我沒辦法表達對未來的股市的發展我不是股神但是我是覺得說如果我們國安基金如果從目前的可用兩千億如果提高比如說到七千億的話"},{"start":11407.409,"end":11428.777,"text":"我相信對這個股市的穩定還有這個投資信心一定有很大的幫助好 謝謝反正你現在大概起跳都一兆啦那我們希望再討論看看心有餘力就往上加好 謝謝羅委員要跟你們同黨委員溝通一下他們有不同的意見好 接下來我們請王世堅委員"},{"start":11445.682,"end":11449.625,"text":"謝謝主席 我請財政部莊部長請莊部長法務部有過來法務部法務部廖參事"},{"start":11474.304,"end":11488.743,"text":"部長我記得這一年來我大概跟你提了有三次就是說關於促參法應該納入強制仲裁這個規定讓公益最大化那麼我當時"},{"start":11492.779,"end":11510.505,"text":"根據你的答覆其實你本身你蠻贊成的你並不反對因為我們看得到現在促參這個爭議頻頻那要解決這些爭議如果讓他們用一般訴訟的方式那會是曠日廢時損害公義"},{"start":11514.827,"end":11525.614,"text":"所以我就提了說那是不是我們就強制仲裁來處理那當時你給我的答覆你跟我說其實你有問了最關鍵的就是法務部法務部他們反對他們說認為說如果把促參案件納入強制仲裁的話他說這是違憲"},{"start":11541.71,"end":11566.195,"text":"說這個是我們強制政府機關訴訟變成好像說這個是違憲就對了所以今天法務部來了我就問一下法務部法務部為什麼將強制仲裁納入就叫做違憲叫做強制政府機關訴訟為什麼"},{"start":11572.847,"end":11596.037,"text":"因為這個議題我先前沒有參與過了就我所知的目前的仲裁法它採取的是合一仲裁為原則但是仲裁法也有允許你把問題帶回去我告訴你 政府採購法"},{"start":11598.362,"end":11604.404,"text":"就是有強制仲裁啊政府採購法第85條寫的這麼清楚如果你們法務部還說促參案納入強制仲裁叫做違憲的話那請問啊政府採購法也違憲嗎就這個問題你待會去問"},{"start":11621.581,"end":11644.62,"text":"好不好好謝謝你不能說你以後上台答覆拜託你也說一些比較古典的那表示哪有說你今天來開會啦四射的是財政部國發會我們會提到的所有的議題那你現在一問三不知你說是因為你沒有參與"},{"start":11646.288,"end":11664.276,"text":"報告委員 我剛剛要說明的就是說我們的仲裁法的規定制度上就是原則上它是以合一仲裁 依仲裁法來進行但是仲裁法也有允許法律如果有特別規定的話是可以允許的"},{"start":11664.736,"end":11693.702,"text":"政府的採購法這就規定得很清楚啊機關不同意自調解不成立者廠商提交仲裁機關不得拒絕這是不是強制仲裁就這麼簡單嘛條文寫這麼清楚你剛剛的那一個答案是不是容我會後了解一下就是說到底那個背景是怎麼樣問題就是剛才講得這麼簡單你回去那你什麼多久可以給我答覆"},{"start":11694.941,"end":11721.038,"text":"我們一個禮拜內可以給委員答覆然後你把當初答覆莊部長那拒絕這個案子到底源頭是誰你也告訴我好不好我覺得這是很莫名其妙那個莊部長你知道嗎這麼多年來我們有多少曠日廢食導致損害公益的這些促餐案"},{"start":11722.762,"end":11745.07,"text":"我隨便念幾句前年你們財政部有推要不然說如果有爭議那先用爭議調解但是前年推了到去年8月為止只有11件提出才4件有通過調解成立"},{"start":11747.642,"end":11758.65,"text":"再來我們把時間更拉長的話從去年8月算起到今年8月去年8月到今年8月總共197件"},{"start":11763.24,"end":11784.245,"text":"解約的有1293億還在促進民間資金參與公共建設這樣子的大前提之下竟然這麼多的案子有爭議然後去年8月到今年8月提前解約的就215件1421億那麼"},{"start":11790.905,"end":11796.09,"text":"其中有47件有464億是觀光遊樂休憩現在我們國內國旅這麼差你看嘛我們國內觀光遊樂休憩這樣子引進民間參與的案子多數是失敗的"},{"start":11813.069,"end":11840.099,"text":"那難怪國旅那麼好的一些景點設備沒辦法更新地方老舊甚至有公共危險的地方都完全沒辦法你比方說這個屏東遠在屏東的大鵬灣那麼好的構想計畫拖了十幾年還在那邊捧一年耐一年你看"},{"start":11841.181,"end":11862.607,"text":"所以我認為啦既然雙方不合啦有爭執啦那就快速解決因為訴訟法院案量實在太大啦那真的是曠日廢時好不好所以我希望這件事情我要求法務部他說一個禮拜答覆那你也繼續追蹤他們好 謝謝委員是 謝謝法務部那你請回我請那個國發會"},{"start":11875.389,"end":11877.67,"text":"國發會是經濟發展處專門委員國發會你們整個國發會在我看兩個字我形容 天兵"},{"start":11892.608,"end":11909.356,"text":"你們對外宣稱說促餐案大成長了到今年10月你們總共說169件2246億我放一個也是你們的表格你們的表格我怎麼加"},{"start":11910.757,"end":11928.685,"text":"怎麼加 75加57 57加就怎麼加都沒有169件金額更是沒有你說的2246億那這就算了我看你們從107年到現在107年前5年 107到111年有 有成長"},{"start":11936.643,"end":11956.4,"text":"從1375億每一年83件有增加到一年139件2828億但是就從隔一年112年開始你們就衰退啦一路就下滑那這下滑不打緊"},{"start":11957.793,"end":11985.51,"text":"我另外兩個字形容你們所有案子虛胖你們是促參法的案子你把其他法令的大眾運輸捷運法大眾捷運法你也納入都市更新條例獎勵的你們那些其他法令的你們通通納入所以結果看起來有那麼多案子結果叫做什麼叫做虛胖嘛"},{"start":11986.687,"end":12006.162,"text":"所以我希望你們認清事實認清說你們從過去到現在很多的案子根本就是拼拼湊湊拼拼湊湊我們政府要用促成法就是希望能夠引進能夠獎勵刺激民間的資金進來"},{"start":12007.934,"end":12033.027,"text":"現在有個大問題啦部長知道啊所以部長有跟院長都有溝通過就是我們這個受險資金我們全國受險資金餘額到去年為底35兆裡面7成被這些受險業者拿去國外買海外的基金債券那有兩大風險一個戰爭一個匯率兩個風險我們都碰到啦"},{"start":12037.062,"end":12058.545,"text":"所以我們的財政部在我們財會委員會嚴格要求監管之下他們就是要去趕快去誘導這些受險資金就是民間資金趕快回到我們國家來參與我們國家的公共建設這是好事啊"},{"start":12060.76,"end":12080.412,"text":"結果你拖三拉四的你想想那麼多結果沒這麼多成績那你列了這些預算預算我們倒是不會再找你們什麼麻煩啦102年開始你們這些花了7億2千萬元那花過去就算了啦因為你們成績"},{"start":12081.758,"end":12103.116,"text":"有消也有成長這個我沒話講今天你們又再度編了五億一千七百一十萬我希望你們好好把握這些錢這些資金就是用來讓你們好好的想方設法去誘導民間的資金參與國家的公共建設可不可以"},{"start":12105.996,"end":12135.065,"text":"是 那跟委員說明就是整個兆元投資國家這個發展方案這個計畫呢基本上就是要吸引這個保險業者來做這個相關的一個投資那這個部分的一個那個他的一個計算呢那在當初方案的設定就是包括這促倉案件跟採用其他相關法令來吸引民間投資達到吸引民間投資的一個案件通通都記錄所以才會這個在整個的一個"},{"start":12135.945,"end":12157.391,"text":"金額或者案件的計算上面呢跟委員如果只單從素餐案件來計算上面數字會有所不同那至於在這個基礎建設認定的這個部分呢那這個目前的因為他的一個申請是個案申請所以是由業者他們是他們需求來提出申請那我們這邊都有列管來協助業者來做認定"},{"start":12159.785,"end":12181.395,"text":"你們有很多定義你們自己把它條列寬鬆了很多定義都不是很清楚我希望你們回去加強我剛剛念的這幾個數字都完全確實正確你們回去看清楚好不好好 謝謝王委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員不在場下一位我們請邱益穎委員"},{"start":12200.207,"end":12202.789,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是請一下莊部長我們請莊部長委員好"},{"start":12208.772,"end":12235.43,"text":"部長好部長我想我們今天在討論這個財政收支劃分法我不曉得您內心對於這個法在過去短短的一年之內經歷過了兩次的修法那現在行政院提出的版本又在上個禮拜被藍白聯手把它複譯掉其實我內心是覺得非常的可悲啊"},{"start":12236.667,"end":12249.946,"text":"到底國家的財政要被在野黨的藍白兩黨的委員毀壞到什麼樣的程度過去兩度修的法荒腔走板"},{"start":12251.021,"end":12276.187,"text":"那大家一直會講這個以前的才化法對中南部的縣市是極度的不公平所以行政院應該要提出版本出來甚至呢這個上一次的這個召委坐在這個台上的時候邀請的縣市首長來包括我們高雄市的陳其邁市長親自到了現場一句話都沒讓他講直接就把會議結束掉"},{"start":12277.674,"end":12303.405,"text":"部長我想要問他們一直說國民黨的前的這個政策會智庫執行長柯之恩委員一直說這個民進黨不負責任因為行政院不提版本好現在行政院提了版本了他又說行政院這個版本的指標呢更細緻更值得採用這是他說的但是"},{"start":12304.875,"end":12316.877,"text":"他卻寧可當傅坤祺的投票機器他寧可讓程旭委員會持續的封殺甚至在上個禮拜的復議案還是投下了反對票"},{"start":12318.595,"end":12342.327,"text":"部長我想請教到底行政院這一個版本您認為該不該拿出來讓大家好好的檢視好好的討論這個對於台灣整體的每一個縣市的財政規劃有什麼更優勢的地方部長我讓您幾分鐘的時間讓您說明一下好不好"},{"start":12343.203,"end":12345.325,"text":"謝謝委員我想我們一直在說財化法的修正涉及到各級政府之間財源的重新分配他一定要經過審慎的規劃而且要充分的討論所以院版的財化法經過多次的跟地方政府討論而且參酌了"},{"start":12361.919,"end":12384.566,"text":"專家學者的意見我們提出這樣的一個修法版本那這個修法版本其實它最重要的一個目標是要讓我們的國民生活品質更均衡也就是說地方自治事項地方要辦的事項政府會我們透過中阿統籌分配稅款給這個地方政府去做第一個讓他的財政自主可以更提升而且地方自治事項可以做得更透實"},{"start":12385.386,"end":12392.052,"text":"那這樣子在國民的生活品質更平均然後第二個就是說我們城鄉之間的分配要更公平委員您來自南部您很清楚我們南部第一個它的工廠在那邊營業額可能都在北部然後因為營業額的比例在那麼高所以讓台北市貨配的金額超過了它去年一整年的金額就這個部分高雄的土地是台北的十倍大"},{"start":12414.548,"end":12439.463,"text":"所有的污染都在南部結果呢你們的這個營業營利事業營收總額的配比台北分到最多理由是什麼不是台北特別會招商啊不是台北特別會做生意啊是企業總部都設在台北污染都在高雄中油台電中鋼污染都在高雄"},{"start":12440.7,"end":12457.59,"text":"該不該修該不該修正當然應該修正嘛土地面積是高雄的土地面積是台北的十倍我們要負擔的人口比重土地比重包括基礎建設的比重都比台北來的大"},{"start":12458.919,"end":12482.955,"text":"都比台北要多很多這個比重該不該調整環境負擔的指數該不該把它納入未來的才化法裡頭我認為是必須我看到現在行政院的版本也納進去也放進來了對不對所以如果是這樣我不懂為什麼在野黨不讓這個版本進入委員會來討論"},{"start":12485.546,"end":12498.695,"text":"不讓我們討論不讓大家了解到底行政院應該要怎麼樣負責任的重新規劃整個財政授之劃分法為什麼不讓我們討論"},{"start":12500.553,"end":12506.494,"text":"謝謝委員我覺得院版的才化法在分配指標裡面是更為均衡您剛剛所提到的沒有錯我們把工業就業人口也放進來同時對中高污染的部分給予加成這個就是考慮到這個一個均衡的問題還有農林榆木的就業人口跟農林榆木的產值也都放進來我們不能只照顧商業發展的城市我們對於我們"},{"start":12526.819,"end":12544.31,"text":"農村鄉村他對於國家糧食的貢獻應該要給予回饋跟當地的民眾要給予照顧這就是我們城鄉分配更均衡我很欣慰聽到您的這一番話主席已經站起來我就不耽誤大家的時間不過我還是希望要在這裡誠懇的呼籲藍白的委員怕什麼"},{"start":12545.271,"end":12561.455,"text":"不要怕嘛大家各自有主張就把各自的版本放到立法院來好好的討論而不是用多數的暴力想要表決想要強度關山想要強姦政府我覺得這是不負責任的做法謝謝部長好 謝謝邱委員接下來我們請黃國昌委員"},{"start":12579.24,"end":12607.826,"text":"來 謝謝主席 本來有請財政部部長以及主計總署副主計長今天是副主計長來嗎請莊部長 陳副主計長委員好不好意思 稍微等一下 我要上PPT你那個遙控器在我這嗎還是用他的 直接用他的"},{"start":12609.076,"end":12637.777,"text":"不好意思我把PDT先上今天我們財政委員會排審了財政收支化分法老實說對於這個議程我非常的驚訝我為什麼非常的驚訝這件事情一年前就在這邊處理了一年前就在這邊處理了怎麼會lag這麼久一年後在這邊排審一年前在這邊處理財政收支化分法的時候"},{"start":12640.885,"end":12669.093,"text":"我聽到的是卓榮泰說現行的版本就是最好的版本這卓榮泰講的現行的版本就是最好的版本那等到現在又排審財政收支劃分法那也沒有關係啊既然排審了就好好來審既然排審就好好來審但我看了就覺得非常的訝異今天"},{"start":12670.901,"end":12696.224,"text":"針對委員所提出來的版本邱映穎委員賴瑞榮委員提了兩個版本我過去在看行政機關在處理法案的時候針對法案的審查所提出來的書面報告是針對所提出來的版本表達意見但請教一下主計總署"},{"start":12698.41,"end":12723.101,"text":"你們今天的這個報告為什麼沒有針對今天排在議程上面的版本表達意見跟我們報告就是說因為財化法這個主管機關是財政部那我們主計總處負責的是針對補助款配套的部分一樣啊今天他們所提出來的財化法修正條文的版本"},{"start":12725.202,"end":12752.472,"text":"也有處理相關的部分那我現在看不懂行政機關到立法院來基本的尊重展現在做該做的事情上我簡單來講就Do your jobDo your job但我第一次看到一個行政機關我們現在修法的版本我很想看一看說你們的意見是什麼"},{"start":12753.978,"end":12782.231,"text":"結果你們整份沒有這次修法版本的意見啊有有有跟文包我們最後有提到說委員所提跟補助相關的部分我們院版也有一起考量沒有啊 但是今天院版有排審嗎不是 我們有說明說今天院版有排審嗎今天我看不到你們對於委員所提出來的修法版本的意見啊我完全看不到啊"},{"start":12783.587,"end":12810.873,"text":"今天召委排ABC三個版本結果你整份報告在討論一個根本不存在的D版本行政機關怎麼會做這種事呢黃委員今天是討論委員版不好意思喔 現在是我質詢的時間對 我跟你說明一下討論委員版的版本我在質詢的是行政官員我沒有要質詢主席啦所以主席不用緊張 請坐下來好 我做個說明好 沒有關係所以我就讓你們好好的表達一下意見啦"},{"start":12812.51,"end":12839.638,"text":"賴瑞榮委員 邱益穎委員提案要把統籌分配款恢復去年修法以前意思是什麼他認為我們修法以後給地方政府的統籌分配款太多了 不合理所以他們今天提出來的法案 討論的法案是要把它修正為我們去年修正以前基本上他要做的事情就是undo"},{"start":12841.678,"end":12865.611,"text":"回復到修法前的狀態請問一下針對這兩個提案財政部贊不贊成跟委員報告在這兩個我們的書面報告裡面都有寫對於中央統計規劃的規模我們認為應該要把它擴大要擴大所以賴若龍跟邱盈盈的這兩個提案你們是不是不贊成我們認為應該把它擴大所以這兩個提案你們是不是不贊成"},{"start":12870.914,"end":12891.884,"text":"我們認為院版裡面都已經有擴大了對啊 我現在問啦現在院版就沒有審嘛所以我問你嘛今天我們如果要討論今天排巡達就是要討論他們提出來的版本嘛所以我請教財政部嘛這兩個版本你贊不贊成我們認為應該要擴大所以你不贊成嘛對 我們認為可以擴大OK 好 來 主語記總處贊不贊成"},{"start":12894.517,"end":12911.921,"text":"他們認為說現在給地方政府的統籌分配款修法以後給太多啦他要回復到修法前的狀態主席總署贊不贊成我們主要就是因為法主要是財政部我們就配合財政部的意見所以沒有意見嘛那妳今天來幹嘛"},{"start":12914.184,"end":12936.183,"text":"我們基本上還是有配套的部分補助款的部分所以我問你贊不贊成我們依法條論法條你討論法條的時候提出了修正版本說統籌分配款要修到修法前以前的狀態我很慎重我才問你贊不贊成你總要有立場有態度要不然你今天來練習幹嘛"},{"start":12938.271,"end":12967.185,"text":"我們有立場啊 來說我不知道不是 我們有立場啊就是說所以妳贊不贊成不是 我們就是希望我們院版可以跟這些提案對嘛 所以我就一直跟你講院版沒有在桌上嘛我現在問妳的是被排審的這兩個法案妳贊不贊成贊成還不贊成我們沒有所謂贊成或反正我們就希望一起來一起討論啦針對這兩個版本所以主計總組是沒有意見就對了是嗎 是不是沒有意見"},{"start":12968.962,"end":12988.565,"text":"奇怪你們來這邊練習要討論什麼法案把這個法案的內容先看過應該是基本功課吧我很詫異啦我請教你今天排審的法案主管機關的意見你們不敢表達意見那你們今天來幹嘛"},{"start":12990.424,"end":13008.16,"text":"我聽不懂 我完全聽不懂沒有 不敢表達我們就是希望跟院板一起討論是沒有關係 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員我們也希望院板能夠進來討論那這樣子會更好接下來我們請鄭天才委員"},{"start":13025.583,"end":13041.937,"text":"財政部部長還有我們副組計長請莊部長成副組計長委員好辛苦了我們今天談財政說之花輪法原因就是出在"},{"start":13045.031,"end":13071.314,"text":"本来是没有问题的却是因为没有依法行政就造成了问题中央对直辖市及县市政府补助办法这个实施很多年了过去都没有问题因为没有依法行政就出了问题这个是依财政收支花轮法三十条还有地方制度法六十九条所定定的"},{"start":13072.436,"end":13100.043,"text":"這裡面都寫得都很清楚跟警政消防 加勤加班費還有國民年金法 農民健康保險條例老年農民福利津貼暫行條例及中低收入戶老人生活津貼發起辦法很多的法規也都明定這個地方政府要支出的部分可以在一般性補助款裡面來支應所以才會編列一般性補助款"},{"start":13101.749,"end":13128.882,"text":"這個相關的這些條文都很明確第三條第一項也都寫一般性補助款教育社會福利及基本設施等補助經費更明確的根據這些條文之後行政院主計總署將114年度中央政府總預算案編列依法例一物之初的明細表依法例一物之初"},{"start":13130.646,"end":13155.56,"text":"哪些經費多少錢總共多少經費都寫得很清楚2,501億但是呢審完預算之後也拖了好幾個月突然想到行政院突然想到我們先看這個"},{"start":13157.57,"end":13183.352,"text":"總統令因為立法院修了這個財政收支發生法包含了第三十條條文院長卓榮泰院長也附屬了就公布施行就生效了就是這個三十條做了這樣的一個修正這個行政院竟然在5月16號突然想到前面都沒有想到突然想到我們應該砍地方政府補助款"},{"start":13186.277,"end":13213.14,"text":"就造成这样的一个非常非常莫名其妙的所以我们尤其是祖籍总处都是公务人员部长也是公务人员出身都当了几十年的公务人员我自己过去也三十年公务人员真的是一个"},{"start":13214.984,"end":13238.379,"text":"變成一個不依法行政的中央接下來好多警察人員惹事條例公佈修正公佈啦也不編預算軍人待遇條例也公佈施行啦也不編預算這個國家怎麼會弄到這樣所以我們尤其是主計總署這個"},{"start":13242.56,"end":13266.935,"text":"就是要去把關了是 剛剛委員報告就是補助辦法就是它是配合財化法它是一個配套的機制所以剛剛委員所剛開始簡報所提的那個辦法它就是舊的財化法所配套的補助辦法那因為今年3月21號總統公佈了新的財化法所以我們依照"},{"start":13267.475,"end":13291.91,"text":"第30條授權訂的補助辦法所以我們去配套去修了我們的補助辦法所以基本上我們就依法行政完全錯誤這個法律的修正並沒有要你去修這個一般性補助款何況卓院長這個114年5月16號函"},{"start":13298.052,"end":13321.318,"text":"再修正 就是再大砍本来你已经列为法律义务支出你跟立法院说这个是法律义务支出然后砍这个就是没有依法行政所以这个部分我们现在怎么样去把这些问题尤其是115年度的预算"},{"start":13322.458,"end":13351.274,"text":"委员我真的要你先看 你先帮我仔细看这个115年度的更离谱委员我们真的是为了调计营需而修补助办法我会让你回答115年度的一般性补助款你先砍了大幅度把一般性补助款1764亿2000多万把它列为什么要计划型"},{"start":13352.148,"end":13375.183,"text":"然後砍了之後計劃型的然後把這些砍的又編給各部會又分配給各部會又增加了這些所以這個時間的關係這個我最主要就是說法律當然我們今天這個召委排了這個財化法的修正"},{"start":13376.124,"end":13399.841,"text":"我们希望能够大家及时管理但是我们就担心修法了之后又不执行现在这个国家已经面临这个问题了所以这个不用回应了真的报告就是我们统筹分配税有增加以后造成县市之间的不均衡我们修补住办法是要让县市去平衡它的差异"},{"start":13400.581,"end":13422.79,"text":"我沒有去提你修正的辦法那我們怎麼樣再能夠更符合相關的這些法制以及預算的編列所以我也在今天的財政收支發展法第30條的修正裡面能夠把它該放入該納入的"},{"start":13424.651,"end":13443.392,"text":"一再的由行政權來去處理是不應該的謝謝 不好意思謝謝鄭委員接下來我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在場下一位徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在場"},{"start":13444.273,"end":13455.792,"text":"下一位苏清泉委员苏清泉委员苏清泉委员不在场下一位林楚英委员林楚英委员林楚英委员不在场下一位张其凯委员"},{"start":13471.256,"end":13476.057,"text":"現在財經部長叫副主席長好請莊部長陳副主席長兩位好我今天要替自己市民叫黃明慧黃市長討一個功德這邊11月14號財化法為什麼要再次修正就是要撥正撥亂反正把被"},{"start":13499.269,"end":13506.293,"text":"行政院亂砍地方的補助款要把這個亂撥成正的結果過了以後你們不依法行政違法亂紀還提了個復議案復議案提過來立法院投票都否決了結果現在總統在說什麼不執行把自己當土皇帝當土匪"},{"start":13526.121,"end":13554.047,"text":"你去霸凌地方政府在全國砍了多少的地方補助款這裡面關鍵數叫做2646億2646億耶所以22個縣市一年用的總預算的規模大概一兆多一點點你砍得下手 砍2646億搶回去違法而且是用搶的將近四分之一耶加一是更是受災 嚴重的受災戶"},{"start":13556.107,"end":13564.356,"text":"嘉義市砍掉69億這兩個關鍵數目是全國2646嘉義市就69億我今天討一個公道我問財政部長問副主席長你們憑什麼嘉義市要砍69億的地方補助款蛤"},{"start":13580.972,"end":13604.163,"text":"委員我跟委員報告就是說我總數來看因為統籌分配稅這邊就是4165億的下放所以造成了這個貧富不均的現象更嚴重所以我們是調整我們是調整而不是刪減去調整所以讓他的差異變小你的名詞叫做調實際上就是砍 砍了69"},{"start":13607.915,"end":13628.313,"text":"中央的錢來自於地方 來自於人民耶那不是你民進黨的錢耶 也不是你行政的我們繳了稅金上來 用三種方式回到地方一種統籌款 一種計劃型跟地方的補助款 三種對不對對 阿蘇英文我們在去年底 修了統籌款為了這個統籌款 爭取嘉義市這個建設增加了66億"},{"start":13633.052,"end":13636.693,"text":"我特別跟委員報告就是說我們有特別拿300多億就是要保障三種錢不減少"},{"start":13653.377,"end":13666.363,"text":"所以這個部分我們是有承諾會保證嘉義絕對這三種錢加在一起不少於一百一十四黃明輝 黃市長給他說得清清楚楚現在大家我跟你說你砍的是什麼錢我先問你第一個問題我們這三種就是統籌款跟地方補助款跟計劃金補助款你有什麼道理"},{"start":13674.369,"end":13685.818,"text":"怎麼這樣面對嘉義市 面對環民會你為什麼統籌款 我辛辛苦苦我從去年2月1號當立委下來 進來 你看我執行這個統籌款的議題好幾次了對不對我當黨團的副總召 每次抄襲協商我是不是都逆增"},{"start":13692.679,"end":13717.339,"text":"不只是各個縣市特別嘉義市連他們派副市長上來開供電會我都還爭取讓他們上來講話就在力爭 因為嘉義市小而美 它的錢就很少嘛我們力爭了多少經過這樣力爭 期改這樣力爭我們增加了好不容易增加66億這對嘉義市非常重要嘉義市的預算規模只有200億元在今年之前都只有180 190到今年度喔"},{"start":13718.715,"end":13743.323,"text":"才超過兩百億 兩百零三結果你 咚 六十九億我好不容易爭取到六十六你砍了六十九你怎麼這樣對得起嘉義市民嘉義絕對不會不會比一百一十四年度少三種錢加起來一定不減少你現在 你去寫你現在算過來算過來 看過來 預算書你的預算書就八月送過來的預算書還有你們修的這個"},{"start":13744.844,"end":13766.416,"text":"中央對直轄市跟各縣市的補助辦法你現在砍了這69啊就是說預算書上面總預算書你不要說謊好不好不是不是你現在總預算書上面跟預算書的資金就29億了嘛而且金額我跟你講更要不得了你知道69億不是只有金額大喔項目是什麼"},{"start":13769.998,"end":13792.319,"text":"窮不能窮小孩嘛 苦不能苦小孩你砍的是家意事小孩子營養有差的錢學校教室的水電費還有防蚵治水 清衣的錢不是啦 那不是要砍啦 那是要讓他用小便所要調整不是 我們保證不減少結果就減少嘛 對不對不是 只是還沒有那個"},{"start":13793.139,"end":13801.003,"text":"還沒有 要我們要均衡財政均衡那筆錢還沒分配出去分配出去以後加益絕對不會減少"},{"start":13803.519,"end":13831.682,"text":"六個縣市統籌款都增加現在是我們這樣力爭的六十六億可以幫家醫師做太多事情了可是我剛剛一直在強調兩百億規模的小而美的家醫師六十六億可以做很多事情結果你現場去砍六十九是太過分了啦砍了三分之一好 那你現在今天要承諾第一個我現在為什麼叫財政部長來 財政部長 等一下因為其實你已經講得很清楚了齁再提書面資料給張委員 好不好先快 我大概一分鐘做個結論啦我要一分鐘做個結論財政部現在說行政院有新版嘛 對不對"},{"start":13832.563,"end":13850.863,"text":"你新版如果回到舊的還有昨天總裁自己講啦他一個人都可以解決所以我明確的要求這個砍得太離譜了這69億不能砍啦而且他都是法定的義務支出喔很多都是延續 我剛才說過的你叫黃龍治水清你你叫嘉義市不要清嗎"},{"start":13853.073,"end":13870.644,"text":"營養午餐的錢 你就對得起小孩子嗎張委員 我們時間到了這個張委員 他所不了解的地方再請副主席長提供資料給他因為有一些資訊是不清楚的來 謝謝等一下 財政部長問一下你的試算表 道歉沒拿出來家醫師的試算表怎麼把69億補回來這個我會繼續追"},{"start":13873.826,"end":13897.492,"text":"好 謝謝我們張委員最嚴重的是不能夠砍這麼多而且都是一個聯繫性跟法定的支持我們把詳細的資料確實的資料提供給張委員好 謝謝張委員接下來我們請顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員不在場下一位我們請葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在場"},{"start":13900.137,"end":13928.504,"text":"今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢本次會議作如下決議一 說明及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者重新鎖定三 委員黃珊珊 楊瓊英 顏寬恆所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆四 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然後不會去逾越到我們國家的法令"},{"start":1890.773,"end":1899.911,"text":"這樣的原則下 我們來訂定那以上說明 謝謝謝謝許志傑委員的說明那接下來我們請內政部 劉世芳部長報告"},{"start":1910.932,"end":1934.164,"text":"主席趙薇早還有各位委員各位女士先生大家早首先感謝各位委員就內政業務在推動的關注跟指導那今天的委員會是審查許智傑委員等38人中國國民黨黨團還有葉元芝委員等18人所提的宗教基本法的草案一共有三個案那內政部應邀列席報告及備詢深感榮幸"},{"start":1934.904,"end":1951.765,"text":"那經過我們的這個研查國民黨團版本與葉委員葉委員原資版本僅相差一個字那至於徐委員智傑版本與上述葉委員原資及中國國民黨黨團兩個版本在第一條第二條第五條的差距比較大"},{"start":1952.205,"end":1968.022,"text":"那至於第三條第四條第六條的規定是一致的只有在文字上做調整那本部呢就上述的三項這個所提出的這個草案呢提供意見如下敬請委員來參考第一大項就是以憲法保障為核心"},{"start":1968.602,"end":1988.276,"text":"目前世界上並沒有以基本法為名而訂定的宗教基本法的國家多在憲法當中訂定宗教自由保障的原則並且在一般法律當中予以落實規定或分別擅見於各種法規跟判決當中並沒有專門制定宗教基本法以保障宗教人權"},{"start":1989.056,"end":2018.32,"text":"第二我國憲法在第7條第13條明定宗教平等與宗教自由的原則那第憲法第23條以上各條列舉之自由權利除為了為了防止妨害他人自由避免緊急危難維持社會秩序或者增進公共利益所必要者外不得以法律限制之明定限制各項自由權利的比例原則是以憲法第13條之宗教信仰自由"},{"start":2019.22,"end":2036.866,"text":"與憲法保障之其他自由權利一樣應該受到憲法第23條法律限制的規範第三項司法院釋字第490號第573號的解釋也以明確規定宗教自由的範圍及國家得以法律訂定的界限"},{"start":2037.966,"end":2055.551,"text":"司法院釋字第490號解釋更進一步說明外在宗教行為之自由與宗教結社之自由在必要之最小限度內仍應該受到國家相關法律的約束非可以宗教信仰為由而否定國家及法律的存在"},{"start":2056.131,"end":2078.829,"text":"至于草案逐条在说明当中虽然有引用公民与政治权利国际公约以及经济社会文化权利国际公约以下简称两个公约作为保障宗教信仰自由的法律依据但是两公约已经国内法化其内容仅具有国内法的效力也不得逾越我们宪法的规定"},{"start":2080.37,"end":2106.75,"text":"第二大項有關草案條文的探討在本次三個版本草案當中皆有若干條文恐怕會造成宗教自由凌駕於其他自由權利的情形且涉及其他法律的執行異議影響國家法治架構現在分數如下一草案未指明宗教及宗教團體之定義或範圍三個版本皆沒有指明宗教及宗教團體之定義"},{"start":2107.61,"end":2136.89,"text":"倘若宗教及宗教團體包括一切未登記立案未正常運作之宗教團體將導致現行宗教法制的問亂影響監督寺廟條例辦理寺廟登記須知宗教團體不動產以自然人名義處理暫行條例財團法人法第75條第二項宗教財團法人之範圍內政部審查全國性宗教財團法人設立許可及監督要點以及人民團體法等現行的法制規定"},{"start":2138.231,"end":2164.687,"text":"第二草案第一条立法目的使宗教自由优于其他法律国民党党团以及业员之委员草案版本第一条第一项规定立法目的细谓落实宗教治理原则同条第二项规定信仰相关事物全数适用本法规定其他法律有特别规定限于无妨害宗教自由及其行使权利将使宗教自由权利优先于其他法律"},{"start":2165.507,"end":2189.984,"text":"換一句話說 當其他的法律妨礙宗教自由急需退讓恐導致宗教行為如有違反包括國土計劃法 農業發展條例建築法 水土保持法 山坡地保育利用條例國家公園法 動物保護法 野生動物保育法公益勸募條例 所得稅法 勞動基準法教育基本法 噪音管制法 廢棄物清理法"},{"start":2190.845,"end":2208.969,"text":"道路交通管理處罰條例社會秩序維護法空氣污染防治法爆竹煙火管理條例性別平等工作法性騷擾防治法性別教育法兵役法施行法消防法地方製度法文化資產保存法等相關法律時即不得據以處理之情形"},{"start":2210.555,"end":2229.603,"text":"第三第二條宗教自由之保障範圍極度寬廣而且宗教自治第二條第三項列舉十類宗教行為自由如建立及保持宗教場所自由傳播宗教自由製造取得和使用宗教儀式所需品自由接受捐款自由"},{"start":2230.143,"end":2258.234,"text":"宗教節日自由其他表明及行使宗教信仰相關作為的自由等同條第四項並且規定宗教團體得自主規範並且管理自身事務也就是宗教自治由於上開宗教行為自由未有但書或界限表示宗教團體可以主張內部事務而排除國家規範形成宗教內部治外法權外部將無法監督會引發大量以宗教自由為名的訴訟"},{"start":2259.654,"end":2282.772,"text":"第四 第三条第四项宗教行为被高度扩张第三条第四项规定宗教团体凡是基于教制教义传统戒律等宗教仪式或活动即不得被剥夺或限制许多活动包括放生晒神珠烧纸钱放鞭炮庙会活动等一旦被宗教界主张是基于教义传统恐将不得限制"},{"start":2283.593,"end":2307.845,"text":"第五 第五條宗教立法一律歸中央剝奪地方治理能力第五條規定宗教事務應由國家以法律定之不得授權地方自治團體定定因為地方制度法明定宗教輔導事項為直轄市縣市自治事項當本條將原本賦予地方政府之宗教輔導自治權予以限縮以違反憲法保障地方自治的精神"},{"start":2309.571,"end":2337.385,"text":"第三大項有關宗教界的看法本草案為宗教界之重要事項經洽詢各宗教代表組成的內政部宗教事務諮詢委員會大多數委員表示有待商榷主要理由包括一草案在宗教事務諮詢委員之間尚未形成共識多認為現階段並無推動宗教基本法立法的必要性跟急迫性第二如果要推動宗教基本法宗教團體法或宗教法人法"},{"start":2338.245,"end":2359.03,"text":"應該取得不同宗教的最大公約數 凝聚更多共識 使條文更增周延再延續推動第三 宗教團體自身有高道德要求 亦需符合政府法律規範不應以提升宗教自由為名侵害他人權利 以免外界誤解宗教及被污名化"},{"start":2360.09,"end":2386.348,"text":"結語的部分我國憲法保障宗教自由政府歷年來皆致力於落實憲法以及兩公約的宗教自由跟平等原則且有關公權力介入宗教事務並受到憲法兩公約施行法司法院大法官解釋以及其他相關法律之拘束與規範草案當中有關宗教自由的保障已有更高層次的憲法保障規定原無必要再另行"},{"start":2387.208,"end":2410.996,"text":"制定宗教基本法 以免跌床嫁屋 置私欲焚內政部為了維護宗教團體組織之運作與發展並且解決宗教團體長久面臨的土地建物稅賦以及法律地位等問題仍將聆聽各界意見與建議維持持續維持研議宗教團體法草案或宗教法人法草案等宗教法制"},{"start":2411.596,"end":2431.18,"text":"此一為宗教界能夠認同之最大公約數期盼能夠具體回應宗教團體需求以及社會期待建請委員能夠審慎考量以上報告感謝委員指教謝謝謝謝劉思芳部長的報告接下來我們請葉元之委員提案說明"},{"start":2439.488,"end":2464.984,"text":"主席各位同仁以及在座的行政部的官員大家好今天我們提出宗教基本法草案其實核心初衷非常單純就是肯定宗教對台灣社會的貢獻並將國家對宗教的態度從消極的管理轉化為積極的保障與協助因為宗教其實是非常上位的自由人身自由那宗教在台灣不僅"},{"start":2466.929,"end":2495.085,"text":"撫慰人心更是社會安定的基石但是長期以來我們雖然嘴上說宗教自由但在法律的層面卻缺乏一部上位的基本法來作為政府施政的準則但是我們非常遺憾看到內政部昨天發一個新聞稿就急著出來反對內政部的理由是說因為憲法已經有保障宗教自由了所以不需要位階較低的基本法說會跌床架屋"},{"start":2495.799,"end":2507.675,"text":"但是難道是憲法有保障就不需要立基本法嗎我們現在有教育基本法那難道憲法就沒有保障受教權嗎我們也有環境基本法"},{"start":2508.632,"end":2537.066,"text":"那但是憲法徵修條文也有提到環保啊我們還有文化基本法客家基本法原住民族基本法海洋基本法通訊傳播基本法零零總總加起來包含新通過新住民基本法和道路安交通安全基本法總共有11部的基本法所以如果按照內政部的邏輯難道這11部法律都是廢紙嗎都多此一舉嗎所以不懂為什麼"},{"start":2537.802,"end":2563.006,"text":"提到宗教就拿憲法出來當擋箭牌那我們以112年三讀通過的道路交通安全基本法為例憲法當然保障人民的生存權與行動自由可是我們為什麼還要立這個法因為我們要確立臨死亡的終極政策目標確立政府跨部會的責任所以宗教是台灣最美風景之一"},{"start":2563.854,"end":2583.713,"text":"我們既然已經為這麼多剛剛講的不管是各個政策目標或各個對象定定的基本法當然就不應該獨露宗教所以希望大家可以來支持宗教基本法草案讓我們展開實質的審查建立更完善的宗教法治環境謝謝大家"},{"start":2586.868,"end":2604.105,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員的提案說明那其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行尋答委員尋答質詢前遠離座以下幾點宣告第一本會委員發言時間五分鐘必要時的延長兩分鐘"},{"start":2605.766,"end":2623.039,"text":"非本會委員發言5分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記二本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位有沒有意見沒有意見那現在進行詢問請登記第一位的舒喬會委員好謝謝主席我們請劉思芳劉部長"},{"start":2636.067,"end":2637.448,"text":"請部長部長好部長雖然今天是宗教基本法的審查但我想先問您一個實事題目就是其實我們在上個月的時候國際刑警組織大會有在摩洛哥開會但是一直到昨天我們看到了這個國際組織司也就是外交部系統他發了一篇新聞稿"},{"start":2662.577,"end":2690.79,"text":"那除了感謝友邦為我們講話希望能讓台灣加入國際刑警組織之外同時也強烈的譴責國際刑警組織基於政治的考量排懼我們台灣再次的排懼我們加入這個組織那外交部都出聲了內政部呢內政部部長您的立場非常謝謝委員的指教我們都了解國際刑警組織呢他不只拒絕台灣加入這個國際刑警組織"},{"start":2692.189,"end":2697.555,"text":"同時他也把台灣是中國的一部分這樣政治性非常強的色彩放到裡面去我們當然是強烈的反駁同時也跟委員報告在這期間我們的包括刑事局長在內我們在全球各地的媒體已經有大概有270篇以上要求全球的刑警組織"},{"start":2715.553,"end":2727.227,"text":"希望可以納入台灣的警察因為台灣的警察在打擊犯罪呢我們很樂意跟全球的民主國家一起來合作是 部長我想是這樣子齁其實世界國際的這個國際刑警組織沒有台灣的加入其實反而是世界的損失啊"},{"start":2732.433,"end":2746.214,"text":"我們可以看從2016年這個一營ATM到零案2017年的遠東銀行的駭客案其實都是世界級的大案但是呢都是犯罪行為在台灣被台灣的刑警發現之後破獲"},{"start":2747.816,"end":2763.252,"text":"而且把這個資料傳遞回世界然後這個案才算是一個有重大突破進展所以台灣的刑警的能力台灣的這個防治安防罪的這個犯罪防治的能力真的是有目共睹"},{"start":2764.113,"end":2779.183,"text":"那我想大家也都非常努力啦我們台灣要加入國際組織其實也不是一蹴可擊所以也很感謝這次已經有到八個友邦替我們講話那我是覺得部長這邊因為我們目前看到的是外交部在國內"},{"start":2779.923,"end":2796.513,"text":"也讓國人了解這件事情我是建議內政部除了對國際投書之外對國內的部分也可以再多做一點表示跟說明跟上這個我們整個政府整體的概念這是我對內政部的期望這是第一個要跟部長溝通我們會來遵守辦理委員的指教我們馬上來處理"},{"start":2800.075,"end":2822.705,"text":"第二個我們回到宗教的事物我也想請司長一起上台看如果有機會的話等一下可以一起回答我想部長跟司長非常榮幸在週末星期六的時候來到了新北的樹林因為我們新北樹林濟安宮有一個五朝元教這是一個非常重大的慶典很感謝行政團隊由內政部長和宗教理事司長親自到現場參與"},{"start":2827.967,"end":2842.715,"text":"所以大家可以看到其實宗教在台灣真的真的是非常非常重要的事物你可以看到我們光是新北我就可以舉例給你看你看樹林濟安宮那天你們有參與好來那再一個你看野柳的神明進港"},{"start":2843.795,"end":2863.633,"text":"這不但是有疑點而且是包含了過去我們先祖在這裡的生活方式的呈現這是漁民在一段時間之後他除了對上天的感謝也是對這個地方的祈安所以他是包含了生活文化在裡面那甚至呢有這個大家熟知的"},{"start":2864.073,"end":2883.908,"text":"野柳神明進港過火的這個部分但是你看下圖的部分剛剛的那一頁的下圖的部分他們甚至分成兩個地方左下的這張是更為傳統的他還要真正的赤腳過火上面其實還有一些傻眼等等的這樣的狀態那再有你看看我們甚至是下一頁"},{"start":2885.499,"end":2900.161,"text":"淡水清水巖淡水大拜拜清水祖師的遶境甚至是新莊新莊地藏庵的文武大眾爺的聖誕這個都是整個城鎮可以動起來所以我想表達的是說你看看"},{"start":2900.922,"end":2924.349,"text":"宗教的據點其實對一般人來講你說可能是去拜拜 沒有在地方鄉親他甚至是一個修器文化健康長照等等各式各樣的場合都可以在這裡發生場域是如此而活動的部分甚至是傳承了文化和你去生活共同記憶的一個部分所以我現在看到的是"},{"start":2925.769,"end":2939.677,"text":"我們2024年有宗教禮儀司開始制定了我想請問宗教禮儀司或者部長看您哪一位要回答就是你對地方宗教文化活動的推廣你現在有什麼策略和發展"},{"start":2941.169,"end":2967.428,"text":"謝謝委員對宗教活動一個支持尤其樹林建安宮全程跟我們部長去參與真的非常感動其實可以的話我其他都想請你來但是我想你應該沒有這個時間跟委員報告我們未來會積極來推動包括支持之外我們會我們包括他的活動然後更具有特色那我們未來會結合國光署然後將我們的宗教文化有特色的然後向國際然後行銷出去"},{"start":2968.789,"end":2997.332,"text":"司長你講到觀光署就是我想講的重點因為你看國際上面日本京都的紫園祭啊泰國的潑水節其實都帶來了大量上百萬數百萬的觀光人士那台灣現在最知名的是白沙屯媽祖嘛對不對那可是我們剛剛的這些一樣有機會可以發展成再升級成為城市國家級甚至是國際級的這就看有沒有新的概念可以進去帶動所以說起來啦我是知道你們現在有這個嘛你們的"},{"start":2998.072,"end":3026.289,"text":"補助計畫有一個啊這個叫做創新吧是不是還是對不起我一時創新創新事務推動的這個計畫是今年的預算配置會是往哪個方向發展各位報告我們會盡量著重在比如說中央觀光是一個部分然後還有一個是國際論壇國際交流然後我們結合地方的特色然後把它行銷出去"},{"start":3027.077,"end":3052.164,"text":"內政部我看到內政部輔導宗教團體發展及促進宗教對話補助你的目的是為了鼓勵宗教團體民間學術團體還有大專院校從事宗教對話公益慈善跟社會教化學術交流與時俱進之宗教文化習俗及健全宗教團體的發展這是你這邊給我們的文字對不對可是我們可以看到其實現在台灣大概至少有17000個符合補助資格的團體"},{"start":3055.265,"end":3078.323,"text":"可是你核定的大概是55個只有0.3那這個狀況是鼓勵大家的還是是因為今年度的預算本身就不多所以核定的數額當然不多那未來如果說得到我們委的支持明年度的話預算多一點我們就會積極來輔導但是我看你明年度的國內的預算其實並沒有增加太多"},{"start":3080.018,"end":3093.976,"text":"國內的部分其實沒有增加太多跟委員報告其實我們有編了兩議那兩議裡面也包括國內的團體他只要說對他國際宗教交流論壇或宗教公安有注意的我們都會請你來協助"},{"start":3094.617,"end":3120.133,"text":"其實市長還有部長還是請部長回應一下好了其實我要說的是說你看我剛剛給你看的這些其實它都不是什麼民間論壇它就是宗教活動事實上能夠帶動地方的認同感凝聚力還有傳承我們的文化甚至是帶來觀光人士的其實是這一類的活動所以我看到了這筆預算其實今年有大幅的增加我是希望"},{"start":3121.144,"end":3138.945,"text":"不要只偏重論壇因為論壇有時候他比較會寫這個預算申請的報告這種的比較不會寫但我是希望內政部尤其宗教師您可以把目光放在這一類的宗教活動上面尤其是誰能夠帶來創新那大家都想變成像Manga一樣啊這個大鬧熱啊"},{"start":3140.347,"end":3156.812,"text":"蒙甲青山祭呀對不對他整個的狀態已經完全不一樣了我認為如果誰能夠提出這樣的計畫我希望中教師內政部中教師的補助可以往這個方向多一點部長可以我們謝謝委員的指教我們會朝這方面來努力好謝謝部長謝謝蘇喬威委員的質詢接下來我們請張志倫委員發言"},{"start":3173.001,"end":3180.068,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員各位媒體先請大家早有請劉世芳劉部長請劉部長委員早部長早部長今天是要跟你請教有關於這個宗教基本法未來的可能的草案的制定"},{"start":3195.134,"end":3216.799,"text":"那這個宗教基本法是一部這個已經拖了20年的法令因為在20年前我相信就很多委員還有很多的專家學者有說要來提出相關的草案那大家都知道宗教是這個撫慰人心是我們民間的溫暖的力量那其實也變成很多"},{"start":3217.879,"end":3237.252,"text":"人民心中的信仰那尤其這次我們看到那個我們這次的宗教基本法的草案就民進黨的許智傑委員他們有38名的民進黨的立法委員有簽署那本黨團也有然後也有18名的本黨團的委員有做連署的動作"},{"start":3237.717,"end":3262.694,"text":"所以變成是說這個是現在不管執政黨跟在野黨都支持的一個法案可是我們看到內政部對宗教基本法的書面報告裡面一直強調一個論點就是認為憲法已經有保障宗教自由而有大法官的這個解釋為依據沒有必要再立宗教這個基本法可是我必須要跟這個部長解釋就是因為"},{"start":3264.417,"end":3284.628,"text":"這個憲法現在規定我們認為是比較抽象而且過去以來都是使用行政命令或地方自治的方式來去做一些限制那是不是有違反了憲法23條要求的這個法律保留的原則所以是不是請部長再說明一下說"},{"start":3285.945,"end":3307.467,"text":"因為你們在報告裡面一直覺得說這個宗教基本法會造成凌駕於所有法律之下感覺起來好像會天下大亂那是不是你們內政部因為他現在不管執政在內都有提出相關的修法你們內政部有沒有相關的版本還有內政部到底反對的理由是不是可以已經拖那麼久的反對理由是不是可以再說明一下 謝謝部長"},{"start":3309.209,"end":3328.908,"text":"謝謝張委員的關心顯然那個張委員對於這個宗教的這個基本的發展方向有非常正確的觀念那但是為什麼歷經那麼多屆的立法委員都沒辦法推動我想一定有他的很多成因也就是說我們有很多宗教團體的不同的意見那大家都知道台灣的宗教非常的多元"},{"start":3329.628,"end":3349.224,"text":"不是只有佛教 道教 包括有很多我們比較不是了解它的教義的部分所以我們以憲法的精神來看或是兩公約的精神來看我們認為就是低度管理為原則但是這個低度管理不要去觸犯到我們剛剛在報告裡面所提到的這25條的法律"},{"start":3351.346,"end":3372.852,"text":"那但是呢有些宗教團體呢還是他的自律性很強他希望列進去那如果我們舉個例子來說就我們所接觸到的大部分的這個宗廟他希望說我們能夠突破山坡地保育或是突破國土計畫那這個會比較困擾因為他有這個危險的問題這個就是我們所說公共安全的問題"},{"start":3373.872,"end":3402.345,"text":"那再來就是有些自律性很強他希望說我們這個很多捐獻或者是勸募的話呢會按照我們的捐獻的這個方式他需要報稅或者不要報稅等等這些那我們都聽到這些聲音但是你要把它列說你的標準要劃在哪一條線確實很難確實很難所以我們就採用這個行政命令的方式只要你不觸犯到母法那幾乎我們大概就是低度監管為原則因為這樣子比較符合憲法"},{"start":3402.805,"end":3417.823,"text":"對於宗教自由的這個精神那當然我們特別有提到為什麼這裡面呢這個不管是哪一位委員所提的版本呢對於宗教自由的概念呢沒有那麼的清楚我舉個例子譬如說在台北火車站的前面"},{"start":3418.583,"end":3442.997,"text":"會有很多人說你要不要信仰什麼部分那如果我們跟他講你宗教自由你到哪裡都可以傳播宗教自由他跑到捷運車廂裡面跟你講說你如果不信的話會怎樣怎樣這個呢就是影響到他人而且影響到公共秩序那這個部分可能是社會法要處理的那這個部分就會影響到我們在同意與否做這個宗教基本法裡面的一個最大的一個成因"},{"start":3443.537,"end":3467.091,"text":"謝謝部長因為在114年就今年的11月27號在東吳大學他的法律宗教研討會也有這個11篇論文還有22位專家學者及很多的宗教團體都有出席他們其實是支持這個宗教基本法所以我還是希望說部長這邊可以請聽民意那盡快找這些社團大家再來討論就您剛提出的問題是不是可以不要再影響"},{"start":3468.192,"end":3496.003,"text":"層面很廣泛的狀況下還是可以有基本法的這個往前邁進一步那第二個我要來請教部長的就是說最近尤其我們最近都在討論詐騙的問題很嚴重那我昨天有開了一場公聽會其實從今年1月到11月其實詐騙的金額高達800多億的新台幣那尤其宗教的部分也有可能有些不肖的這個業者他們也會有一些宗廟的一些詐騙或是高利貸的問題"},{"start":3497.388,"end":3511.454,"text":"最近我們也看到不管是有宮廟可能淪為地下錢莊或者是要求信徒去借高利貸或者是要求賣一些說加持過的東西來試品來去改運然後請長輩匯出巨款"},{"start":3515.876,"end":3537.433,"text":"那我想要請教就是說 因為現在這個打詐是跨部會的協調因為內政部 如果宗教團體他可以由內政部來登記成人民團體如果有違法可以解散那如果他用公司組織的方式變成是經濟部商業司來管轄那如果是一些宗教團體 他們是賣的是心靈治療課程如果牽涉到醫療的 可能是衛福部來管轄"},{"start":3538.24,"end":3553.047,"text":"那現在這麼多管轄單位那針對這些宗教的詐騙是不是有可能用聯合稽查的機制來去做管理因為我們現在有看到很多這個民眾被詐騙完以後輕生的問題是不是請部長可以回答"},{"start":3555.198,"end":3570.77,"text":"謝謝張委員的關心第一個你所謂的心靈成長到底是屬於宗教就是我剛所說這個說不定只是假宗教之名行詐騙之實那我們114年1月1號也是今年跟宗教詐欺有關的案件已經有移送86件86件"},{"start":3573.372,"end":3598.254,"text":"還有就是說他是屬於非法的宗教活動他其實就是在行詐欺那我想張委員講得非常好就是如果他願意到我們的警察單位來報案的話我們會結合剛剛你所說的衛福部或是教育部一起來做這個稽查的工作讓他不要觸犯到刑法這條線那至於說這個非法的這個宗教的活動屬於哪一類我是不是請市長跟你稍微回應一下好 謝謝市長"},{"start":3600.576,"end":3613.385,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們現在常常碰到比較非法的譬如說他是賣尼古塔或者是改姓名改姓改姓的話你就要交多少錢還有說是平安燈允許說10萬塊20萬塊但他子弟可能不認同還有說假借說我要投資你把那些金額把它投資下去結果不了了之全部要去哪裡了這是幾個我們常碰到一個案例好謝謝那最後一個問題我還想要請教部長部長這個"},{"start":3630.171,"end":3644.942,"text":"最近還是很多民眾跟我反映就是說針對內政部進小紅書的問題我想要請教因為現在聽說現在小紅書上面也在教導人民說如何用翻牆軟體用翻牆系統來去用小紅書"},{"start":3647.324,"end":3663.026,"text":"那針對民眾如果用這個VPN或是翻牆系統會造成裡面跳出很多的談業廣告會不會讓民眾或是我們的國人因為他很想要看這些不管是美妝旅遊或是生活的一些資料他用翻牆軟體會不會造成他們"},{"start":3664.288,"end":3683.468,"text":"會更有機會接觸到這些詐騙廣告的這個問題你們內政部有什麼樣的解決方式使用VPN的方式的話我們會請這個數位經濟的監管機關來處理但是裡面如果牽涉到詐欺的話就是會像很多外界所提到的因為他已經是不屬於我們監管的範圍沒有辦法納入台灣監管的範圍"},{"start":3686.651,"end":3697.661,"text":"所以這樣的詐騙行為要我們的警政單位去追查反而比較大的困擾那我們那個科技偵查 對不起防詐中心的張主任跟您回應一下好不好好 謝謝 請張主任"},{"start":3700.54,"end":3725.285,"text":"謝謝委員對這個部分有深入的一個了解那基本上不管他是在這個網路廣告平台上平台上面他只要跳出相關的資訊我們也會想辦法會利用科技偵查的方式去追索他有沒有相關的來源的IP只要是來自於在境外的部分我們還是會去做一些相關的程式去做一個去做一個trace如果他是用個跳板的部分只要在國內的部分我們"},{"start":3725.865,"end":3755.075,"text":"科技犯罪防控中心它其實基本上都能夠查得出來意思就是我簡單回應一下就是說基本上如果是這個VPN是國內的系統你們還可以追查國外的系統就相對難追查意思是這樣嗎跟詐騙的部分有關的部分其實在我們以現有的相關的程式會去追索但是並不能跟委員保證就是說是不是在國內部分一定能夠追得到因為事實上像包括我們在做數位鑑識的部分的追查其實用一般相關的一些數位鑑識軟體比如說Tri-Edge等等的這個東西基本上"},{"start":3755.635,"end":3766.227,"text":"因為他手機的他的那個功能還有包括程式會一直更新所以我們會不能夠說完全保證但是我們會盡全力來追查謝謝 以上謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝張志文委員的發言接下來我們請張宏祿委員發言"},{"start":3786.584,"end":3812.852,"text":"我請部長跟市長請部長還有市長莊委員早部長其實今天大家在討論這個宗教基本法我認為大家都是利益良善但是我覺得以我目前看到這個法案的內容其實我還是真的覺得有一些不足之處不知道部長你的看法"},{"start":3815.073,"end":3838.944,"text":"謝謝委員的關心其實我們都知道台灣的宗教其實它的環境是非常多元的但是要做到管理確實不容易所以我們的公務系統的人都是基本上以服務為主你只要不要觸犯其他的法律上面應該有的規範的話我們大概都不會去特別去高度監理"},{"start":3840.726,"end":3862.469,"text":"對啦 我如果就這個內容來看的話部長 會不會有一天台灣會有很多的異難他就因為宗教的問題他就不服一物一他可能就替代一或什麼這個選擇會不會有一天有這種情況發生"},{"start":3863.909,"end":3891.592,"text":"我當然希望不要太多因為給宗教太多自由他會說他不要服兵役等等這些因為有些宗教他的教義裡面是不能拿槍的啦不能什麼的其實有很多有這種宗教啊那如果宗教基本法我們現在過了沒有詳細去規定會不會有一天台灣真的很多人不用當兵這也是我們會擔心的理由之一啊"},{"start":3892.246,"end":3912.976,"text":"對啊 這個我覺得很多事情要思考到那再來 如果宗教基本法如果通過了我們如果沒有好好的去規範的話未來這個放生會不會問題更多那就觸犯到動保法或是野生動物保護條例"},{"start":3914.816,"end":3941.749,"text":"我如果是宗教基本法通過我可能有基本法的保障是 所以我們很希望說要非常的那個審慎來研議也就是說不要妨害到我們自己國家的重大的政策所以我們會覺得說宗教的自由把它放在憲法的位階來討論會比較好那不要做那個強度帶強的行政管理對啦 因為我覺得啦一個基本法的概念"},{"start":3942.952,"end":3968.384,"text":"位階是很高的基本法的位階是很高如果說沒有好好的討論如果說就這樣子通過我很擔心我剛舉的這兩個例子這個不只影響到我們對宗教會有很多人去鑽這個漏洞這個是我擔心的對不對 部長那再來其實台灣"},{"start":3970.1,"end":3987.96,"text":"宗教自由 我相信現在應該算是蠻自由的了啦我們的管理也沒有到非常的高度啦 對不對幾乎沒有但還是有一點啦 我們不能說完全沒有不能違法啦 不能違反法律那宗教的自由已經非常的自由了"},{"start":3990.6,"end":4004.165,"text":"我們啊基本法因為太大的題目了所以要好好的討論但現在呢台灣的宗教其實也有一些問題我們可以明確的趕快去解決啊對不對像我們"},{"start":4005.822,"end":4029.747,"text":"之前有這個以自然人名義登記的這個我老覺得這個我們是不是要來討論有沒有需要再延長我不知道部長你的看法是 謝謝其實也是委員在當召委的時候我們在上上個會期有通過目前我們去跟很多宗教團體來接觸的結果他們希望我們繼續輔導"},{"start":4031.187,"end":4045.112,"text":"所以很有可能到明年6月的時候呢我們會可能會繼續往下再繼續延長這個時間因為畢竟在輔導的過程當中每個廟宇所出現的狀況是不一樣的那我們要跟地方政府來結合"},{"start":4047.72,"end":4063.881,"text":"不只不一樣而且樣態也非常不一樣是的市長我請問一下你除了以自然人這個我們可能要延長之外那廟宇的登記的問題還有其他不屬於這些類型的吧"},{"start":4064.889,"end":4084.676,"text":"根委報告 其實很多的樣態在寺廟登記 很多早期都是用自然人民益登記包括農地的部分 我就說排除自然人民益這個還有很多樣態吧 對現在包括說在農地上你要土地怎麼變更為寺廟所有這是很大的一個議題"},{"start":4085.6,"end":4096.328,"text":"所以我們現在內政部門部長非常重視所以我們剛好國土計劃法在延長六年那我們會積極來輔導包括地方縣政府來輔導我們重要團體因為這六年在非都市部分或都市計劃趕快做變更包括我們要作為就是在讓他的預算能夠減少他所花的機會減少他的時程可以縮短所以我們會來努力這個部分"},{"start":4111.319,"end":4132.658,"text":"除了农地上的还有很多还有很多它有的不一定是农地它有的也可能它的庙人家在那边后来政府给人家化为什么环保用地化为什么我觉得这个都可以一并解决一次通盘的去了解吧"},{"start":4133.118,"end":4141.663,"text":"是包括那你們有沒有什麼具體的想法是我們會通過我們宗教執行委員來聽聽看各個各個地方的意見然後我們包括我們的同仁也有會診的會診相關資料然後我們會積極來討論來研議包括說我們包括國路署的包括地政的問題包括大家研商怎麼去溝通來解決他問題還有一個財稅問題在宗教團體他非常關心他的稅然後我們"},{"start":4163.092,"end":4191.852,"text":"我們先不用講到財稅我現在是跟你講這個用地的問題對不對我覺得其實問題也沒這麼複雜你就是民國幾年或什麼有一個標準人家之前寺廟就在了對不對還是這種的我們要不要去解決你總不能說從明天之後然後他明知道這裡不可以的那他要去那裡"},{"start":4193.031,"end":4211.56,"text":"這個我們就有點說不過去但人家在之前就有了這個我們可以想辦法解決吧我覺得應該要稍微先切割吧你覺得呢各位報告我們現在有一個就是崇化農地的特農區的部分我們之前也有幫他解套"},{"start":4212.24,"end":4238.275,"text":"但是事實上他申請率還是不高但是我們會繼續來協助這個特農區的在我們這個土地法實施之前的我知道啦你都沒有take到我的重點你一直在跟我講農地我都已經跟你講到不只農地了那你還一直在講農地你都沒有回答我的問題啊我請我們等下同仁來補充啦那個委員所講的部分我了解就是說他本來已經在那邊"},{"start":4238.975,"end":4256.289,"text":"那後來不管是都市或非都才把它劃成其他宗教不能夠使用的用地那這個有時間先後所以每個個案我們會去會刊會刊出來確實像委員所提的這個狀況的話我們就想辦法解決那我們的同仁他們有處理過我先讓同仁跟你簡單的說一下"},{"start":4258.211,"end":4282.779,"text":"跟委員報告 這裡是國土署那現在如果是在非都市土地上面如果是在各縣市第一次實施編定管制之前就已經存在的寺廟是可以由寺廟檢據這個管制前的合法的證明文件向各縣市政府去申請更正編定為建築用地那現在是有這樣子的機制可以來做處理我知道 但有一件事情"},{"start":4283.559,"end":4294.062,"text":"我們都忽略了地方政府也忽略了很多寺廟的負責人其實都蠻資深的年紀都蠻大的了"},{"start":4295.37,"end":4318.567,"text":"我跟你講 你政府要他去申請 他根本不知道啊他也不懂啊 問題是出在這裡啊那我們就是在辦公室裡面這樣看都忘了這些人 他其實不懂這些他每天在聽收音機的而已 他也沒有看報紙然後政府也 因為他也沒有登記也沒有寄通知單給他"},{"start":4319.808,"end":4347.25,"text":"現在有很多的問題是這一種的那我覺得身為主管機關如果像這種我們應該要想辦法去解決才對啊委員我非常了解你現在說的部分我非常了解一百年兩百年的老廟的部分或者是說它的住址已經不在了我跟你說我們可以這樣子第一個會刊很重要但在會刊的過程當中我們的行政單位可以去取得當時的航照或空照圖"},{"start":4348.872,"end":4372.134,"text":"來確定 讓做這樣的鑑定鑑定出來確實是這個樣子的話我們就會簽辦這個公文 而不是說你一定要來申請我們沒有 沒那麼細心啦我們還是非常靈活會處理這個部分 所以我說我們的中理師的相關單位是以服務為主 而不是以管理為主因為這個後面人家還要我剛說的有一個重點就是他"},{"start":4373.416,"end":4397.828,"text":"之前連來申請登記什麼他都不知道要這一種的非常多尤其是在那個非六都以外的更多我覺得這一種的我們應該要先想辦法幫他解決甚至我都覺得說他如果是這樣其實只要這個廟他有給我們竊決"},{"start":4399.13,"end":4423.345,"text":"如果你這塊地你永遠是用寺廟使用的我們都可以幫他解決那如果以後你要賣掉你要什麼的你這塊地啊我們就會想辦法去限制他我覺得可以有一套的做法好那個謝謝委員的指教委員非常了解這個狀況我們會跟地方政府來找到一個大家都可以一起來合作的方案好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":4427.598,"end":4431.2,"text":"謝謝張宏陸委員的發言 接下來我們請李博議員發言謝謝 有請劉部長請劉部長李委員早 謝謝部長我來講一下"},{"start":4454.83,"end":4484.587,"text":"曾经是你的选区现在是我的选区的左营万年记左营万年记在你担任副市长的时候开始大力的去整合我想要听一下副市长听一下刘部长当初整合的现况他是在连池谈判的所有的庙宇然后由高雄市政府的民政局邀集这些庙宇"},{"start":4485.1,"end":4508.608,"text":"一起來參與那我們把它做成一個萬年祭讓整個左營的廟宇文化特色結合觀光讓所有高雄市甚至外縣市的人來辦到今年已經十幾年了那今年度也是由原地廟來主辦這一個萬年祭就是把所有的這些廟宇有一個特色"},{"start":4509.704,"end":4539.197,"text":"跟政府的政策的走向慢慢走向這個萬年紀你不會看到大量的煙火跟鞭炮跟所有的廟宇的這個他們可能在遶境啊或者是他們可能要辦活動的時候傳統的印象會不太一樣這個就是高雄市政府當初劉部長你跟所有廟宇的這個共同用心推動今天的這個成果啦"},{"start":4539.775,"end":4566.906,"text":"那所以當然跟今天的這個宗教基本法我覺得是息息相關因為當我們這些廟宇他分開辦活動的時候大家在比什麼比熱鬧啊怎麼樣熱鬧放鞭炮放煙火啊怎麼樣來表達我對這個廟宇的這個支持我就是設立炮台我來放鞭炮那部長"},{"start":4569.352,"end":4592.664,"text":"萬年紀已經這麼進步了那這個宗教的這個基本法如果下去的話那所有的這些我們其實地方政府跟這些廟宇都保持很良好的互動跟溝通啦如果要遶境的時候總是要跟警察局第一個先申請這些路線嘛那第二個警察局會勸導什麼會勸導說你們的煙火你們的鞭炮要怎麼放"},{"start":4593.705,"end":4623.165,"text":"這個大家要取得一個共識那比如說共識如果晚上9點以後還是有這些那麼熱鬧的活動的話那警察局當然必須要跟環保局必須要都全程出面監控如果萬一真的影響到人的時候必須要做一些協調必須要做一些溝通法絕對不是我們現在主要的目的是讓這個宗教活動可以跟社會可以共存可以讓社會也可以接受這個宗教基本法"},{"start":4623.598,"end":4627.438,"text":"如果通過以後 部長會不會抵觸到這些相關的規定"},{"start":4628.255,"end":4653.268,"text":"如果現在的條文太籠統而且對於自由的定義是什麼有點像是說以宗教為名的話他所產生的各種各式各樣的這種禮俗活動等等這些如果侵犯到其他的包括教育勞動或者是環保等等的時候就變得不受控制那這個不是一個宗教基本法想要推動的基本的方向"},{"start":4653.928,"end":4681.863,"text":"那那個李委員非常謝謝你就是說在左營的這個萬年祭的這個部分我們有考慮到包括文化的因為萬年不是只有左營還有鳳山所以有跨區域的還有是跟社會局譬如說我們要舉辦這些活動的時候大家會收營你會請這些弱勢團體過來收營類似這樣子的方式那就表示說把我們宗教這種教化世人而且是照顧弱勢"},{"start":4682.883,"end":4703.582,"text":"這樣子的一個基本的核心理念把它放到裡面去所以包括原地廟等各宮廟的負責人都覺得願意投入而且我知道他們花的這個金錢啊還比這個政府補貼的更多那這樣子的熱鬧的活動的話不是只有我們這個社區裡面應該出現的也變成是高雄市結合觀光"},{"start":4704.302,"end":4731.768,"text":"非常有用的一個活動那我覺得這樣子相當好如果可以繼續推動會像剛剛有些委員提到譬如說像苗栗的這個超跑的模組的這個活動它就越來越多的這個國內外的觀光客會進去那這樣對廟來講也越來越輕啦所以我覺得如果有這樣一個跨文化領域跨不同的領域然後他是遵守台灣的規範的話在台灣一定會受到相當多的歡迎"},{"start":4732.588,"end":4761.674,"text":"對但是這個活動沒有牽涉到目前我們討論到的這些可能有這些宗教基本法的草案沒有都完全沒有那還是可以規劃的非常好有特色但是這個草案他主要要規劃他主要要可能會影響到的範圍有在根據部長就教大概宗教團體法或者是宗教法人法或者是宗教這個基本法就是來定義什麼叫"},{"start":4762.679,"end":4782.618,"text":"宗教自由什麼叫宗教光是宗教的定義我覺得可能就會必須要花很多的時間跟精神來討論因為外界也有很多目前我們把宗教跟勸募跟詐騙跟組織沒有辦法去分辨的這一些"},{"start":4783.171,"end":4811.151,"text":"那會不會就跑進這個宗教基本法來受它的規範那會不會有相關的剛剛其他委員有質詢到的這些土地的問題因為這樣子有大量的國土可能因為這個宗教基本法而影響到可能未來的國土計劃法影響到水保法 影響到建築法那會不會影響到國家公園法那會不會我剛剛我講的這個噪音管制法"},{"start":4811.991,"end":4832.119,"text":"泡足煙火管制條例甚至消防法等等這些問題都會包含在這個宗教基本法裡面的宗教自由以及傳道自由以及傳播自由裡面我想這個是我們必須要很認真的去看每一個法條可能會造成的影響"},{"start":4833.035,"end":4861.515,"text":"那所以現在內政部包含各縣市政府的民政單位對於宗教的土地財產財務等等尤其是財產財務等等是採低度管理嗎但是如果藉由這個法以後他會造成什麼樣的結果可能想像的結果部長第一個所有的內政部的宗教諮詢委員還是希望來審慎研議這個比例大概是怎樣九成以上"},{"start":4862.577,"end":4890.808,"text":"九成以上的中華民國宗教諮詢委員希望要宗教基本法沒有共識之前不要貿然推動是應該是理由是這樣的那如果說有些委員說那你們內政部要去制定一個宗教基本法可是我們宗教基本法訂定下去的時候就會有我們剛剛所說的25種台灣的法律要把它納到裡面去那你納到裡面去的話呢就變成非常高度監管"},{"start":4892.247,"end":4906.992,"text":"那既然是非常高度監管又並不符合我們憲法裡面保障這個宗教信仰的自由所以我們說在這個取捨之間是不是慢慢推進會比較好那有些戰刑條例的部分大家宗廟團體或宗教團體所碰到的困擾"},{"start":4907.432,"end":4935.067,"text":"只要他是正向的在推廣宗教的那我們盡量來服務他像剛剛我有提到他是老廟可是碰到新的建築法規那中間一定會有一些緩衝的方式可以來處理那我們就盡量來服務就這樣謝謝所以我們內政部對宗教對這個看法還是採取高度自由但是要符合台灣信仰宗教高度自由宗教高度的自由但是還是要符合台灣目前"},{"start":4935.509,"end":4944.974,"text":"的相關的這些法令包含土地是那包含兵役或者是包含環境等等的這些我們都還是要繼續兼顧是謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝李博弈委員的發言接下來請王美惠召回發言"},{"start":4959.096,"end":4977.675,"text":"主席,我們這裡補充補充有申告嗎?在這裡,本市長先跟你說一件我們的專門安全小舉本在這裡面的過程,本市也看到你去跟家人的選擇在哪裡,但是本市長是覺得說"},{"start":4983.689,"end":5007.886,"text":"在我們看來 到目前我們要到下禮拜十二月十五到全台灣都會去補貼這份小局面是不是這樣不是 那是只有基隆而已北部地區差不多 我不知道沒有啦 北部的都市的都差不多有補貼啦對對對 但是部長你可不可以知道"},{"start":5013.49,"end":5013.85,"text":"我來催促國防部"},{"start":5044.817,"end":5066.997,"text":"我們趕快在這個十二月十五心思全台灣都會到位來 補充六個章節這是第三梯次啦第三梯次是包括嘉義市在內有六個端子啦第四梯次還有三個啦但是如果是阿公阿嬤現在看不到我建議說他的孫子在那個網站上面可以去掃 從網站上面掃下來"},{"start":5071.26,"end":5085.626,"text":"掃描下來下載也可以 因為就是阿公要跟阿公阿嬤聯絡一下感情 我看有的會去拿他的阿孫大伯伯的拿回去 我就在那裡早早站在外面站的時候看到是在那裡說什麼 我就跟他們在那裡說我覺得這樣很好 雖然補充說起來 你如果"},{"start":5098.09,"end":5105.274,"text":"QR Code 掃出來的時候合併了但是那個親子的感情是不一樣的所以普通 我覺得說你會覺得那麼久嗎"},{"start":5114.52,"end":5123.292,"text":"我也覺得太久了國防部就硬這麼慢了 我跟你說國防部硬多了 我們本多了對啦 我覺得要快一點因為剛好現在可以"},{"start":5129.44,"end":5133.944,"text":"各縣市有的分農民力做會分他會覺得說一時要分那一時要分那跟我們可以做會分好過的 能夠好好保證在廟會選到的選擇也很好有機會也可以交給自己我來安排時間保證今天我們要說"},{"start":5157.739,"end":5162.961,"text":"廟會的基本法裡面本身要探討的就是我們年古未清在這個秩序當中要維護社會的秩序好不好我覺得這是最基本的尤其廟會在你們一棟一棟叫這些廟會要去登記也好"},{"start":5184.997,"end":5194.785,"text":"你覺得到目前為止有多少票的定期你們內政部的統計正式定期一百三十年十九年"},{"start":5201.995,"end":5208.398,"text":"跟補聽機的有26個啦在這個規定當中我要請問我們的管理廟室的是怎樣到目前為止會聽到這樣是有什麼問題有什麼麻煩來回答一下好來"},{"start":5227.389,"end":5230.712,"text":"大家委員好 大家委員報告啦所以我們現在正式登記有七千一百六十三間 撥辦有五千一百九十八間 這是目前的資料啦因為撥辦大部分都是遇到土地的問題 土地沒辦法變成二地定管所以當初有撥辦的制度 花一段時間來做土地的變更"},{"start":5248.53,"end":5249.27,"text":"我們說實在的現在你也知道說實在的廟的"},{"start":5275.748,"end":5288.293,"text":"比超商小便宜還要多是有什麼態度的本事來講是說經濟的跟部門的接觸啦你如果去努力去了解他的狀況是怎麼沒辦法辦啦是說實在你去看如果大間的有人做的時候去辦做好辦的有的年貢有的錢四五十天五六十天的到現在"},{"start":5305.458,"end":5320.506,"text":"那沒辦法辦像你剛才說的雙胞胎不能辦但是國家時代水土保護的地方是可以用廟的可以用教育的對不對 是不是這樣那我說的是不是廟的比我們超商還要多那是怎樣定義到這樣"},{"start":5331.977,"end":5339.183,"text":"跟你說是說 他的地有問題啦跟他的財產有問題啦 跟你說要怎麼去協和啦有辦法協和 我們就跟他講基本法你沒辦法協和 問題有很多啦雖然我是教育 但我尊重我們的廟因為廟有很多"},{"start":5358.191,"end":5370.581,"text":"人的信用我們就是要去處理好有的廟是做錢書 辦展弱勢團體的有的是什麼你知不知道騙食騙錢的市長你知不知道這個所有本事跟你說的就是好好的我們怎麼去付賭不好好的水田電機都沒有運作"},{"start":5386.735,"end":5388.378,"text":"那有問題耶 市長是這一筆來 你要怎麼處理"},{"start":5393.657,"end":5398.718,"text":"大家可以報告 其實我也很關心 補充也很關心這個議題其實我們現在有計謀說 我們包括說這個月17號邀請到地方政府的 他們的客廳跟主辦的 我有一個公事人做出這個議題 就是說要針對戰刑條例 就是說土地的變更 要讓它復讀不要讓他們覺得說 在國土安全範圍之內 要花這麼多錢 花這麼多時間 它就乾脆不可以辦"},{"start":5420.023,"end":5436.74,"text":"我們來針對這個意義來克服 來協助他們市長 有的沒辦法 我們怎麼去來用在不違法當中我們要中央的角色要去多協助啦好第五電機的啦 中間30%都沒運作啦"},{"start":5442.796,"end":5450.403,"text":"他沒運作,你讓他去了解這庭在那裡沒運作六大、四大,他們在幹什麼啦你也要關心一下了解你們是感到吃捏對嗎,不是放在那裡讓他這樣也不好有時候阿公阿姨在那裡,人家不便宜什麼"},{"start":5463.516,"end":5465.499,"text":"所以說廟的基本法裡面有很多問題現在"},{"start":5481.803,"end":5499.22,"text":"我們的法是可以牽涉到10點以後 不能放任何人如果要放任何人 覺得很老人 我們也很開心但是10點過 是我們要休息的時間 你如果這個法規"},{"start":5501.77,"end":5507.958,"text":"沒法不聽,一般跟聽講,你也不知道他再來未來,他如果開一間廟室,要做兵的人,去登記他的信託你後來要他做兵,也生問題"},{"start":5521.054,"end":5538.26,"text":"所以在這個規定 我覺得部長也好 市長也好應該大家多溝通 我剛才說的問題是區區一兩項而已來賓是很多問題在來賓 所以我這時候的時間也夠了要不然我問市長 我們這個法規修改 是可以也好"},{"start":5547.643,"end":5557.913,"text":"如果修法 修完後 這樣就不理會我們的修法 也會封仇說修到這個法 沒辦法保證廟 還有廟的"},{"start":5563.254,"end":5585.364,"text":"跟當然認真做的負責人的意思相關的如果萬一歐北省的負責人這樣就不好了所以市長我們在這裡不妨去每一個縣市跟縣市政府跟廟會的負責人大家探討出來問題才是重要的是 好 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":5593.374,"end":5596.857,"text":"好謝謝完美會召委的質詢接下來我們請黃婕委員發言好謝謝主席我們請劉部長請劉部長"},{"start":5613.634,"end":5627.874,"text":"好部長好在處理這個宗教基本法之前我也想先請教一下這個老宅延壽相關的政策因為這個老宅延壽政策出來其實我們地方上反應都還蠻正面的那當然昨天也有聽到有一些"},{"start":5629.054,"end":5656.826,"text":"網友也都在討論說這個老宅延售他們認為效果有限覺得在都更跟危老之後如果還要做老宅延售是不是他們覺得這個政策可能效果不彰是不是拜託部長在這邊跟大家說明一下老宅延售的用意以及他其實裡面最高可以補助到960萬其實是一個非常高額的補助謝謝委員的關心委員非常關心我們的住宅政策"},{"start":5657.526,"end":5674.597,"text":"其實老宅延壽跟督庚跟危老三個都會並行但是在處理督庚跟危老的時候因為它在建築申請的程序比較慢或者是要統合比較多不同的意見但是老宅延壽的話只要它合乎耐震的標準的話包括它瓷磚脫落"},{"start":5676.698,"end":5692.273,"text":"或者是家裡頭有老人家需要更換管線才會影響到消防安全呢我們都把它列入可以來申請那如果說為了照顧老人家那你需要補這個電梯外掛式的或是內附式的話呢"},{"start":5693.013,"end":5708.009,"text":"我們最高確實是可以補助到960萬那我們在每一場說明會的時候來的人真的非常的多各式各樣的問題也不少但是因為這是特別法通過的所以我們希望在三年內可以用50億的經費來輔導全台灣的人來處理這一塊"},{"start":5712.834,"end":5739.694,"text":"那因為在處理的過程當中我們也委託各縣市地方政府的建築師他們到現場去講的時候我們也請到說請現場那個能夠溝通的母語去講所以村里長也好或者是對這個有興趣來的都非常的踴躍那所以我們就按照原來的方式繼續推動那我們推動老宅延壽的其他的目的還有都更跟危老也會一併來進行其實都沒有任何焊隔的地方"},{"start":5740.254,"end":5756.71,"text":"好謝謝部長說明因為這兩天其實消息出來之後南部也有很多鄉親都在問我們說我們會排對沒錯所以我有跟內政部爭取說我們南部也有需求希望接下來這個說明會可以多到南部舉辦讓更多的人知道這樣子一個好的政策"},{"start":5757.33,"end":5784.448,"text":"好謝謝那再來這個宗教基本法其實我覺得宗教自由是我們憲法保障所有我們國民的權利那所以其實宗教自由分成兩個部分一種是精神上思想上所以精神上的這種思想自由是絕對沒有問題的尊重大家任何人性養任何自由的權利這個就是憲法保障我們一個民主國家的權利可是如果要涉及到宗教的行為"},{"start":5785.569,"end":5810.757,"text":"那這個其實就要涉看所有的法律之間有沒有漢格了那所以其實剛剛很多委員也都舉了一些例子那我在這邊其實也隨便想到就想到幾個例如說有一些宗教團體他們會成立學校成立醫院那或許用他們的教義在這樣子的醫療場所以及在他們的學校裡面去傳達符合他們教義的理念但是"},{"start":5811.477,"end":5826.525,"text":"例如說在性平法裡面就是有規定到說要尊重不同的性別尊重不同的性傾向可是如果他的教育裡面是沒有辦法接受多元性別的那在他們的學校裡面會不會有焊隔之處啊"},{"start":5827.546,"end":5846.387,"text":"我舉個例子好了他在學校裡面說我們要教反同教育我在學校裡面絕對不可以提到同志兩個字那請問這樣子所謂符合宗教自由的教育嗎我想宗教自由大概也不要侵犯到別人"},{"start":5847.228,"end":5861.926,"text":"那屬於精神跟文化層面的話其實沒有任何法律可以規範的到但是屬於妨礙到別人自由或者是這意見表達自由的話可能就要受到場所的限制那因為教育部的同仁有過來我們請教不同人說明一下"},{"start":5864.211,"end":5888.202,"text":"請問如果這個宗教基本法通過之後是不是代表這個只要是宗教團體成立的學校他在裡面是可以教導不符合性平教育法裡面相關規定的內容報告委員就是我們教育基本法裡面有規定就是在學校是教育中立的原則那公立學校他是"},{"start":5890.123,"end":5907.12,"text":"就是不得在學校裡面從事宗教這些活動因為它要保持我們國家教育任務的中立性跟公共性但是私立學校它可以辦理符合它學校屬性的宗教活動但是它不能夠強迫師生參與"},{"start":5910.578,"end":5934.034,"text":"對啊所以我說可以他在學校裡面教這些不符合性平教育法裡面的內容是可以的嗎不論公私立他是不能夠強迫師生就是不能違法嗎對啊所以性平教育法寫得很清楚啊你不能違法不管你是公立不管你是私立就是要符合我們基本教育的原則不是嗎"},{"start":5934.774,"end":5950.667,"text":"所以我的意思是說這個宗教基本法如果下去他的教義跟我們的性平教育法裡面有漢格的時候怎麼辦其實我們本部在我們本部的說明裡面有說到就是說今天的宗教基本法有三個版本"},{"start":5950.967,"end":5969.993,"text":"那其中就是那個委員許智傑的版本裡面有提到就是要宗教自由要在適當場所那我們部裡面是支持要在適當場所的因為這樣子才不會跟教育基本法的教育中立有焊隔好 謝謝教育部的說明再來我們請農業部"},{"start":5971.693,"end":5995.751,"text":"我在這邊也舉另外一個例子我們民間有一種宗教的法器叫做鯊魚劍那它是用一種已經瀕臨絕種的保育類叫做巨窯的一種生物它的身體的一部分做成的那一個禮拜之前其實海巡署才查獲到一批這樣的鯊魚劍已經移送檢調來辦理了那我要問如果這個宗教基本法通過"},{"start":5996.471,"end":6016.29,"text":"那是不是符合他們宗教行為使用鯊魚劍這種瀕臨絕種的生物使用的宗教的法器他們是可以使用的嗎報告委員有關於鯊魚劍這部分它是屬於海域的野生動物那當然是由海委會來主管"},{"start":6016.71,"end":6033.23,"text":"但是對於野生動物牠的獵捕的部分我們還是建議在維護生態永續的一個前提下應該再依照野生動物保育法的一個規範來去處理對啊 所以很明顯如果"},{"start":6033.83,"end":6053.256,"text":"民間的這些宗教跟野保法之間有衝突的時候會變成說兩部法律到底要遵守哪一部這個一定要好好討論所以我剛剛舉的例子不管是性平法不管是野保法還有很多包括說環保相關的法規包括你鞭炮放太多包括你要不要放生一些外來種"},{"start":6054.296,"end":6064.766,"text":"這都很可能會侵害到我們的生態保育啊公共衛生啊甚至是一些疾病的傳播都是有可能的更不用說如果你要在農地建廟或者是說這個宗教裡面不符合要服兵役這樣的規定該怎麼辦"},{"start":6071.192,"end":6086.352,"text":"所以以上其實不還有什麼消防公安太多太多了一旦這個宗教基本法跟其他的法律之間有焊隔的時候一定要審慎的處理所以我在這邊也希望我們主管機關內政部一定要多跟這個再拜託劉部長對"},{"start":6089.561,"end":6108.696,"text":"這個宗教基本法裡面漢格的法律太多太多了對我們現在統計出來25種25種法律所以而且很跨到那麼多部沒錯所以這個一定要拜託大家審慎思考也希望我們主管機關可以再跟各個部會各個委員多溝通讓大家知道這個法律"},{"start":6109.777,"end":6122.761,"text":"撐射行為自由這個自由是有界限是有責任是有法律的基本的底線的所以這個不可以隨便貿然實施好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝黃街委員的質詢接下來我們請徐欣穎委員發言"},{"start":6145.604,"end":6168.872,"text":"謝謝主席 本席有請劉部長有請部長徐委員好部長我們有看到內政部的報告一開始就講說我們這個宗教基本法是應該以憲法保障為核心所以是不是因為這樣所以沒有行政院的版本"},{"start":6170.819,"end":6196.05,"text":"報告委員其實在委員討論的過程當中大家都知道這個提出宗教基本法的概念在立法院已經橫跨至少五屆以上那表示說大家都沒有共識這個跟那個黨派沒有什麼太大關係那既然沒有共識的話現在貿然推動反而會有更多不同的問題會產生所以當委員說要審查這部分我們也"},{"start":6200.031,"end":6224.872,"text":"也沒有辦法去馬上處理因為這是上個禮拜才出來說要處理的部分 對對對我也了解因為我知道您第五屆第九屆第十屆我在第八屆的時候很多人想推但因為沒共識就都等於好像擱置對對對那所以行政院這個會期也沒有預期會審所以也沒有行政院版本"},{"start":6226.288,"end":6238.698,"text":"但是我其實本席的立場是跟你們是一致的我們這個憲法保障為核心但是憲法保障為核心你們這邊特別提了這個憲法23條講說以上各條列舉之自由權利除了"},{"start":6249.246,"end":6273.823,"text":"妨礙他人自由避免緊急危難維持社會秩序等等所以不得以法律限制之那你們這樣講的同時本席其實也想講其實選舉罷免創制複決也是憲法保障的所列的權利可是我們在選舉罷免我們有選罷法創制複決我們有公投法"},{"start":6274.758,"end":6288.932,"text":"那再來人民有集會結社的自由所以我們有集會遊行法 人民團體法所以我們希望行政單位不要有行政怠惰的這種情況"},{"start":6290.794,"end":6316.113,"text":"既然民間或是民眾甚至民意代表這個立法委員代表著民意他要來進行這方面的一個基本法宗教基本法的擬定我還是很希望可以看到有行政院的版本所以如果召委有要進行逐條的時候我們希望行政院也能夠有行政院版本"},{"start":6317.202,"end":6333.581,"text":"那再来我想接下来最重要就是说既然我们要来讨论法条那所以首先本席先来确立我们也认为宪法的高度法治的明确性这个很重要所以本席请教部长"},{"start":6336.001,"end":6348.989,"text":"在中華民國憲法第13條的架構之下內在的信仰自由與外在的宗教行為請問哪一個是絕對保障那哪一個是可以法律限制的"},{"start":6350.951,"end":6378.59,"text":"我想内在的部分比较像是精神跟思想层次那它的保障是写在宪法里面所以它其实抽象性很强那也无法用其他的法律来做管理跟管治我的问题是我刚刚讲的内在的信仰自由跟外在的宗教行为哪一个是可以绝对保障的那就是内在对嘛那所以我们外在的宗教行为我们是应该用法律来限制之的所以我们有了这个共识"},{"start":6381.831,"end":6405.216,"text":"一定我相信部長也認同我們宗教的自由絕對不能置外於憲法還有法律但是現在我們就討論到這個基本法裡面第一條有關教俗分離是不是應該要寫進去教俗分離嘛"},{"start":6406.536,"end":6435.116,"text":"教徒分离的目的就是宗教自由不可置外于宪法跟法律部长你理解吗因为我们没有要进入主条所以我不晓得整一个不是我们没有我们现在就今天就排宗教基本法那所以我就在请教您的立场跟意见嘛所以教徒分离他应该要确立才对吧你们认同呢你们认同吗"},{"start":6437.748,"end":6442.484,"text":"因為我不曉得那個委員所說的教塾分離的真正的定義是什麼"},{"start":6443.764,"end":6469.991,"text":"你现在讲的是就是当然教徒分离你也看不懂其实我看到以后我也是我也是去了解了很久教徒分离我想大概大家的认定应该就是宗教自由不可置外于宪法法律所以要教徒分离你如果教徒没有写进去那你其实就是变成好像你宗教你有了基本法以后你就变成"},{"start":6472.031,"end":6492.788,"text":"不受法律控制這樣反而不行所以這個部長你這個要加把勁再來自主管理自主管理你不敢寫進去那這個自主管理的部分就是說宗教我們要保障他的自由但是你又不給他自主管理那難道是要由執政黨管理嗎"},{"start":6494.48,"end":6515.86,"text":"所以这两点教徒分离跟自主管理一个是宗教不可以置外于所有的宪法法律第二个是你要保障宗教的自由你还是要给他有一个自主的空间本席我看部长还在研究没关系也就是说我们"},{"start":6517.369,"end":6539.932,"text":"政府的手 給他自主管理就是政府的手不要深進去管神明的事除非神明的事情變成了凡人的危險他危害了公共秩序如果他危害了公共利益甚至善良風俗政府就要管理但是如果沒有這些前提之下給他們自主給他們有自主管理的這個"},{"start":6541.173,"end":6564.154,"text":"好那再来就是在我们今天讨论的三个版本就是召委有提出来我们的三个版本里面有一个版本一直写在法条里面满满的第二条里面都是适当的场所刚刚这个前一位委员也在质询适当的场所适当的管理者适当的慈善机构"},{"start":6566.035,"end":6591.926,"text":"我們很驚訝法律明確性原則可以用適當兩個字放進法條裡嗎那這個適當誰來認定難道是誰執政誰認定嗎所以這一塊本席有提修正動議我們希望適當這兩個字要刪掉我們要用不妨礙公共秩序與善良風俗來取代適當這一塊"},{"start":6594.861,"end":6607.515,"text":"无论我们是不是要进入逐条还是怎么样我们希望行政单位也要有立场一定要有立场还有再来就是民众有一个忧虑部长这个法"},{"start":6609.602,"end":6635.242,"text":"這個有部分的民意代表開始推動但是我們還是要注意社會大眾的疑慮也就是說宗教它不可以是法外之地不可以是法外之地所以有些民眾的疑慮就會擔心宗教基本法會不會變成宗教霸王條款或者絕對不能變成邪教保障法"},{"start":6636.144,"end":6662.059,"text":"所以我们希望信仰的核心跟世俗的责任要切开所以部长我觉得这个宗教基本法您可能好像都还没有特别关心没有特别深入委员这样讲我觉得我只能跟你讲说我们请教过很多宗教团体不同教派的宗教团体是大家没有共识"},{"start":6662.899,"end":6677.226,"text":"那既然沒有共識我們大概站在我們的低度管理的立場我們就不輕易去說這個贊成這個不贊成更何況委員您所提的部分是委員或者是立法院所提的版本所以我很難回應說這個好與不好不是"},{"start":6678.186,"end":6706.114,"text":"但是你要站在行政单位你要有行政单位的立场我们刚有提过我们认为现在贸然推动宗教基本法可能不是那么的成熟你一直在讲基本法可是我已经进入细项针对某些立场你现在所讲的部分是进入法律不是进入基本法是每一种法律案像您刚刚所提到的就是所谓的教俗分离所以我在讲的是宗教基本法的这样的一个概念那行政单位的立场你要有立场"},{"start":6707.214,"end":6724.159,"text":"不是嗎我們的立場就是根據我們現在的憲法上面我們用低度的這個管理但是呢盡量來服務但是不要去觸犯到其他的法律為主對啊但是如果你把它寫進去的話你會覺得說是高度管理"},{"start":6724.719,"end":6747.023,"text":"而不是自治治理那這個就是最難的地方就是說這條線要劃在哪裡所以我們現在有很多出現需要解決的部分的話就盡量在法律授權範圍內的暫行條例或者是一般的管理辦法或是輔導的方式來處理我覺得這樣子才能夠容納更多對於宗教有不同想法的人"},{"start":6747.463,"end":6764.114,"text":"对 所以您这样从您的回答就表示说有部分的人想要推宗教基本法你们是连宗教基本法整部法你不管这个讨论不讨论你对整个法你是否决的"},{"start":6765.63,"end":6784.504,"text":"委員我還是沒有辦法接受你這樣的說法我們不是否決其實我也沒贊成啊我一直跟你表達我的立場你的幕僚都聽得很清楚沒有不是這樣的委員我們不是這麼斬釘截鐵我們已經講過我們問過所有在宗教界他們是長久以來一輩子都在宗教界服務"},{"start":6785.345,"end":6807.146,"text":"我們要尋求最大的公約數現在這個最大的公約數並沒有在宗教基本法這裡面產生的很多人有不同的意見我們都尊重但是既然沒有產生我相信立法院也是一個整體的一個決策的範圍內你不是絕大多數人都有希望通過的一個最大公約數的話這樣通過這樣不是置私欲焚嗎"},{"start":6807.867,"end":6821.969,"text":"所以我們沒在說通過不通過我們在講說討論我們也很多法條是開始討論他並可能他就直接保留或者是直接討論一半他並沒有說一定"},{"start":6823.03,"end":6851.823,"text":"通過或者甚至二讀三讀沒有耶而在討論的時候大家把整個社會的意見包含當然行政單位你們有徵詢所以我們才要討論所以我相信很多人聽到剛剛本席所講的我就是針對幾個因為談到宗教基本法大家會有的疑慮包括我剛剛講不希望宗教基本法變成邪教保障法更不希望宗教基本法變成宗教霸王條款啊是不是所以"},{"start":6852.863,"end":6868.214,"text":"这些立场我们都要把持住所以本席在讲的是这一块你这样了解吧所以那当然还有一些是因为我们看到今天放进来的法条有一些它属于比较模棱两可宗教"},{"start":6869.369,"end":6886.796,"text":"没有宗教基本法但是如果有宗教基本法也不能变成这个宗教基本法最后这个条文内容都是你政府都用什么适当适当那不就都听你政府来判定这个适当我在跟你谈的是这一个"},{"start":6887.898,"end":6916.85,"text":"然後再來我們好像是第幾條第四條也是什麼損害他人權利之餘這個之餘當然有一些我們會認為是不是民進黨委員的版本是代表你們比較支持的如果沒有你剛剛已經講了這個宗教基本法你從頭到尾你就是不推也不贊成就對了那我們連討論的空間都沒有"},{"start":6919.807,"end":6942.725,"text":"部長你聽懂我的意思嗎要回答是嗎我已經多次表達站在行政機關的立場我們就是以各個宗教團體裡面的代表意見為主在還沒有尋求有共識之前的最大公約數之前現在貿然推動會造成更多其他的問題所以你的意思就是說連討論都不能討論"},{"start":6944.846,"end":6966.085,"text":"現在已經在立法院討論了所以我在跟你講討論的點你完全沒回應你完全無法回應那沒關係這個我本席就是表達我們站在每一個人大概我們都面對的群眾大家的疑慮我們既然討論到這個議題我們還是要把這個議題"},{"start":6968.959,"end":6996.327,"text":"如果往前推不管他通不通過往前推我們還是應該要就一些問題來釐清但是部長你的態度我只能說行政怠惰然後呢這個完全對我們立法院在討論這個事你不僅行政怠惰還有你也不深入謝謝報告委員這個我無法接受我們其實跟各個部會還有很多委員尤其是宗教委員討論過非常多次"},{"start":6997.307,"end":7007.25,"text":"謝謝徐欣盈委員的質詢接下來請麥玉珍委員發言待會在麥玉珍委員發言結束後我們休息5分鐘謝謝主席有請內政部總理師還有勞動部請市長還有勞動部部長休息一下"},{"start":7029.285,"end":7053.399,"text":"我要請教一下我們台灣的穆斯林人口已經超過30萬人其中新住民還有一共佔26萬人是台灣社會中規模相當可觀的一個族群我們穆斯林在台灣的生活面向包括就是飲食"},{"start":7054.64,"end":7082.592,"text":"祈禱清潔還有語言的社群知識對於其他族群有所差異我要請教一下我們林師長在內政部的宗教政策的定位中我們穆斯林這個族群的生活與宗教需求內政部是否認為說需要被重視還有在以保障你們的立場是為何"},{"start":7084.714,"end":7088.636,"text":"謝謝委員的關心因為我們在兩個禮拜前我們也特別拜訪了我們穆斯林協會的一個理事長與相關人員我們也跟他談到這個宗教對話包括他現在已經那個穆斯林他們特別有有機的那些食品他們在推我們有達成一個共識我們在宗教的輔導立場我們會積極來協助他們不管有多少人包括我們的宗教旅遊他們的宗教務也非常有特色"},{"start":7113.795,"end":7137.098,"text":"怎麼去結合他們一起來把他推出去這是我目前的一個一個一個來協助他們一個方式我們知道但是我們是希望就是說我們內政部跟勞動部有沒有跨部會來去說協調這個機制啊確保就是在各類就是說公家場域或者私人的雇主"},{"start":7137.78,"end":7164.951,"text":"提供這樣子的空間真正能落實友善就是穆斯林的需求還有你們手中有沒有說全國的調查或者是就是需求的盤點在現在為止有沒有這個這個系統的統計的數據我們想要知道的各位報告那我們勞動部代表在這裡我們請他再來說明所以你們這邊沒有勞動費這邊有嗎"},{"start":7169.289,"end":7196.796,"text":"跟委員報告那基本上那個移工在台就是他的相關的一個生活照顧的部分是由僱主他必須要依照生活照顧計畫書來來提供一些協助這樣子那我們生活照顧計畫書裡面有包括必須要尊重這個就是移工他們本身的一個宗教信仰包括飲食飲食跟生活習慣的部分那這個部分呢我們都是落實在我們的僱主的一個生活照顧計畫書裡面這樣"},{"start":7198.897,"end":7215.467,"text":"那跨部會的部分如果說其他部會有需要我們相關的一個宣導或協助的部分我們會配合辦理我們知道每一個部會都有我們要的現在我要的就是說你們有沒有全國調查他們的需求或者盤點"},{"start":7216.548,"end":7230.195,"text":"有多少人有多少點就是我們國營事業還有公家的部門有沒有友善對穆斯林的飲食標準或者他們的做禮拜的地方能不能提出數據"},{"start":7232.576,"end":7254.336,"text":"不是說只是照顧 這個照顧都知道 人家知道你有照顧有照顧要問你 沒照顧問你 問什麼在你有照顧 才要知道說多少數據 多少的人 多少的需求我們要的是是這樣子的一個照顧 要有量或者是有需求這樣子的意思啦有沒有"},{"start":7257.846,"end":7282.598,"text":"跟委員報告因為涉及到很多部位包括漁場的移工的問題包括照護譬如說居家照護的問題包括很多工廠的問題所以我們目前我們是沒有這個數據對我覺得是因為沒有照顧到也沒有保障到也沒有真正的重視所以我們是要你們重視所以目前就是因為我們知道說人口有30萬人"},{"start":7284.66,"end":7303.193,"text":"所以全國就是我們是現在就是清真寺我們有11間但是都在北部大量的穆斯林集機刷工業區 漁港 像你說的以及就是各個安置中心 收容所 還有就是培訓機構"},{"start":7304.574,"end":7332.843,"text":"都是没有固定的一个祈祷宫空间所以我们就看到很多移工就是在阶梯在就是说临时空地做礼拜或者竞争室的不足的缺口所以最后造成就是自己自己就是募集补上或者是要很多地方已经都发生很多人就是有人就是提供空间这个空间是"},{"start":7334.324,"end":7359.993,"text":"是公有的因為有人跟我們反映中部就有公有的所以他們就是被騙了把這個公有的地他們就蓋個鐵皮屋在裡面做禮拜但是後來就是被人家檢舉說是公有地你不能蓋所以他又租金又繳了繳的是這個人租給他的這個地蓋了花了全部的新住民移工自己募集的錢去蓋好"},{"start":7360.513,"end":7378.144,"text":"到最後全部拆 花了100多萬這個都有啦所以我們希望說你們要要重視要有這樣子就是少數的種價我們希望說你們要有沒有這樣子的缺口啊盤點啊 需求啊這個就是我們今天要質詢的目的啦"},{"start":7379.445,"end":7404.606,"text":"謝謝委員 跟委員報告 其實我們都是歸各目的事業主管 他們會做一個統計那我們內政部的部分 我們會針對我們中國佛教協會 回教協會那些相關人員 我們來跟他來協助他們 如果需要他們需要我們內政部協助的地方 我們會積極來協助所以他們有需要積極的協助 但是呢 我覺得我們政府現在也有"},{"start":7405.219,"end":7431.056,"text":"不同的點不只是說這是我們希望說在目前的空間不足我們也知道說有各點但是我們是宗教師還是現在好像說只是他們需求你們來協助但是我們政府很注重這一塊重要就是在我們國內很多的公共產業中是否有規劃就一致性的祈禱式"},{"start":7432.076,"end":7448.927,"text":"因為他們都是在6日他們可能放假所以在工業區啊交通樞紐的地方啊或者是我們國營事業還有住宿還有就是一個公有的建物中是不是有提供這樣的空間啊不要說他們有需求"},{"start":7453.231,"end":7463.064,"text":"求助無門嘛 所以才找我們來幫忙質詢幫忙去問說不是有有這個意願來去討論或者是協助這樣子的意思"},{"start":7465.164,"end":7489.792,"text":"跟委員報告因為宗教我們台灣有佛道教有各個宗教基於宗教平等其實我們都會來尊重他們因為太多宗教了這一點要跟委員特別報告所以我們會尊重他們我們現在是百分之百是我們是尊重所有的宗教但是就是我們為什麼要提出是穆斯林他是因為少數"},{"start":7492.153,"end":7510.858,"text":"所有的宗教我們像我們佛教我本身就是佛教我們台灣全台有很多新住民就是信佛教所以我們就有現有的廟啊佛堂啊我們就去參拜但是因為我們台灣沒有現有的公共的宗教場合"},{"start":7512.099,"end":7534.562,"text":"所以我們才要提出來去問這個問題如果是所有的宗教都有現有的我們火車站還有高鐵站還有就是我們機場為什麼要設一個小小的空間讓他們去做禮拜呢就是表示我們政府很重視宗教的禮儀還有宗教的"},{"start":7535.872,"end":7559.543,"text":"的少數才會設這個特別給他們用嘛但是因為這個空間比較小他們要禮拜六禮拜天才放假他們來的話就會擠在一起所以他們才會需求說有沒有說我們要去討論的是說我們希望我們政府跟各個宗教團體來有沒有這樣子的研究的需求讓"},{"start":7561.064,"end":7584.856,"text":"北中南都有這個空間讓他們可以做禮拜我們現在就是說宗教的尊重還有保障還有讓他們有一個地方我們希望是說你要去盤點要去調查不是說我們針對這個宗教其他宗教不照顧完全沒有但是因為我們台灣也真真的"},{"start":7585.496,"end":7608.414,"text":"也去照顧這個宗教因為現有我們台灣沒有公用的地方所以變成他們個別他們就會自己來去就是找地方或者是因為做禮拜只有休禮拜六日所以他們的空間不夠所以他們也是有需要所以我們想要問的是說我們要找出需求"},{"start":7609.374,"end":7632.522,"text":"找出問題我們要來解決問題因為真真是有那麼多人的需求空間又那麼小所以我們希望說我們政府這邊有沒有說有一些我們多餘的空間或者我們政府的空間借給他們或者租給他們或者是友善的空間讓他們禮拜六日他們可以使用是這樣子的一個目標"},{"start":7635.627,"end":7652.106,"text":"對 不能說我們只要注重說我們現有的台灣的這個少數的我們宗教師這邊好像完全一問三不知這樣子會讓這個宗教感覺就是說你們真的沒有重視啦各位報告其實我們不是一問三不知啦"},{"start":7652.546,"end":7665.934,"text":"因為事實上我知道委員非常關心這個議題我們跟那個回教協會我們也在積極保持一個聯繫包括我們很多目的事業主管機關也非常重視所以剛才委員提到這個場所問題我們會跟目的事業主管機關我們來審慎來做一個研究跟委員報告希望我們就是審慎研究還有就是說把所有我們政府本來就有設的或者是各個宗教他們都有的讓"},{"start":7681.524,"end":7698.19,"text":"更多人知道因為很多人都是剛過來或者沒有連接到宗教他們就沒有地方的話有時候他們就在空地在階梯在每個地方他自己做這樣子的話不懂的人會嚇到所以變成我覺得是說我們要求的就是"},{"start":7698.905,"end":7718.628,"text":"有這樣子的一個關心多保障他們讓他們有一個一個環境更好的因為他們真的不管飲食也要清潔也好他們的把他列入在他們的宗教的要求裡面所以他們是很嚴謹的所以我們政府才會設那麼多不同的"},{"start":7719.188,"end":7747.502,"text":"的公共場域讓他們來去做禮拜所以我希望說我們市長這邊就跟各個國營也好私藝場域也好公共場域也好還有就是因為大部分他們都是家庭看護比較多所以他們是不是路途或者是就近用一個就是我們整個地圖整個地方讓他們有一個就是可以真的安靜又可以做禮拜的地方"},{"start":7748.15,"end":7757.302,"text":"對他們更有幫助啦是這樣子的要求謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝麥玉珍委員的質詢現在我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":7784.497,"end":7784.917,"text":"他們是怎樣設定的"},{"start":7831.054,"end":7834.801,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8143.518,"end":8161.484,"text":"接下來我們請黃建斌召委質詢好謝謝主席我們有請內政部劉部長請內政部劉部長"},{"start":8165.2,"end":8194.683,"text":"來 周偉豪部長好 今天本席擺這個宗教基本法其實我相信部長也很清楚我們民進黨委員其實很早就提出這個版本連署的委員也達到多達38位那民進黨的版本更早在去年10月就交付委員會來審查比今天審查的另外兩個國民黨的版本還要早這代表什麼代表我們宗教基本法的立法已經是跨黨派的這個共識那當中許多的條文也都很類同"},{"start":8195.524,"end":8209.579,"text":"至於為什麼我們要立法來保障我們的宗教自由這個也是許多專家學者們多年來的倡議我們希望藉由相關的法源作為政策推動或司法判決的依據避免許多的爭議還有衝突的產生"},{"start":8210.2,"end":8231.526,"text":"而這一次草委立委所提出的這些草案也都是依照我國的憲法以及聯合國宗教人權保障相關條文來草擬目的就是希望能夠落實我國憲法第13條人民有信仰宗教之自由作為憲法精神下的這個補充的細則因此我們既然草委也都有共識"},{"start":8232.866,"end":8261.738,"text":"現在就是要來開始討論的時候其實我們內政委員會的審查過程讓各方的意見都可以充分來表達那當然也包括各機關部會的意見但這次的過程裡面內政部有兩件事情非常的不尊重立法院的委員們甚至包括我們民進黨立委在內第一件事就是說上個禮拜內政委會就發出了議程內政部作為主責機關書面報告卻直到昨天傍晚6點左右才傳電子檔到各辦公室"},{"start":8262.438,"end":8291.938,"text":"那超过内政委员会要求的时间我想第一个这个非常不尊重内政委员会那第二件事情本席看了各部会的书面报告即便有一些部会对部分的条件有调整的这个意见但还都是强调说尊重立法委员们的立法职权还有立法院的决议甚至法务部还说对于我们这个规范宗教自由的保障范围宗教平等宗律原则禁止宗教歧视以及对宗教自由之限制等等的事项相关提案内容"},{"start":8292.758,"end":8297.422,"text":"內政部的書面報告裡面有提到相關立法要聆聽各界的意見但目前從內政部的態度看起來"},{"start":8320.359,"end":8348.214,"text":"是所有部會裡面態度最強硬的而且有先入為主這個立場同時也是最不尊重朝野立委職權的部會希望這一點我們部長這邊好好來檢討跟反省接下來有一件事情我要跟部長來討論我們台東宗教文化傳承議題繼續跟內政部這邊來反映袁小姐最著名的宗教文化活動就是北天燈南風炮東韓單以及西起龜那其中台東的炸韓單不僅"},{"start":8349.232,"end":8373.093,"text":"超過60年的傳承 更是全國僅有我想這不單是台東人記憶中最重要的傳統習俗那這幾年在我們台東縣政府的推動之下規模也逐漸的擴大成為著名的這個宗教文化觀光盛事那在我們內政部這個台灣宗教文化地圖的官網上面有特別提到也介紹到台東玄武堂這個炸寒丹我想書長也要了解"},{"start":8374.654,"end":8396.61,"text":"那這樣本席就這次機會我們跟內政部來反映特別是我們宗教師就是目前台東選武黨的詐案單台東縣政府已經公告為台東縣民俗文化資產但他一直想要申請這個登錄國家籍是無形文化資產卻一直卡關那根據本席的了解這個登錄的主責機關是文化部"},{"start":8397.27,"end":8424.61,"text":"但是其實炸寒單的活動它其實橫跨了宗教跟文化兩個層面那尤其這些宮廟都是登記在我們內政部底下嘛所以這兩個部會我們是不是能好好來溝通跟合作我想不是你文化部說的就算那目前我們相關的登錄規定上都需要有像記憶啊文化知識啊這個上面的這個認證的限制這個對於許多宮廟來說都非常的有難度"},{"start":8425.587,"end":8448.705,"text":"這不是代表說他們沒有這樣的內涵是這些宮廟的人員可能不知道什麼申請認證就像早上有幾個立委提到他很多東西 他不知道要怎麼申請所以加上認證的標準叫做是針對這個傳統記憶跟宗教活動的概念不能完全的來比照因此我想要請內政部的宗教師以我們台中在選舞堂設這個範例來看"},{"start":8451.223,"end":8477.575,"text":"我們跟文化部來溝通來討論在未來申請國家級的這個無形文化市場上面是不是能夠以更簡正便民的方式來申請要讓我們國家的力量一起來守護全台這個僅有的宗教文化活動這個是不是能請部長來允諾那也請相關單位在一個月以內跟文化部來討論研議並提供本辦公室一份報告書"},{"start":8480.386,"end":8494.144,"text":"謝謝委員的關心事實上台東這個炸寒單這是全國非常知名的也是吸引每年非常多的宗教的一個觀光客這是一個我們有形的不管是五喜有形的一個真的是很好的一個活動"},{"start":8495.385,"end":8500.169,"text":"所以這次也跟委員報告我們在宗教師的立場既然是寺廟辦活動不管是文化部我們會協同文化部一起來推動這活動讓它更具有特色至於委員剛才有交代的他在登錄的時候碰到的一個瓶頸相信我們會來跟文化部來了解到底是不是文化部來再跟委員來做一個具體的說明這我們來協助"},{"start":8520.851,"end":8535.538,"text":"對 其實本席問過廟方這邊他們一直說我一直都簽不過去他可能用其他的方式所以這個我們站在內政部主管機關的立場我們來協助廟宇來做這個跨部會的討論讓這件事情可以行"},{"start":8536.658,"end":8553.971,"text":"我想這個是很多台東人也期待我們也希望說這樣的文化活動當然隨著時空環境的改變有一些陋習我們要來修正但是這個精神我們希望能夠延伸下去這屬於我們政府的理由來倒三缸這順暢屬於我們來倒三缸部長是不是可以來請"},{"start":8556.253,"end":8580.034,"text":"協助這件事情但責成教安部會我們市長有提到就是我們會跟文化部一起來協助那還有委員剛有提到說好像我們法務部的寫法跟那個我們自己內政部不一樣那法務部的代表這邊您可不可以問他一下那另外我致歉一下就是說因為我們是要宗教諮詢委員的每個委員都問過才會把它寫到書面報告裡面所以會比較晚送到大院來這個請委員能夠見諒"},{"start":8582.616,"end":8596.449,"text":"我們都提到這件事我們真的希望說讓大家能夠更充分來討論這件事情當然發生的事情就發生我們未來能夠改善就能夠改善因為這是我們整個委員會委員這是本縣我這次議會的標端也謝謝部長跟市長的言諾謝謝謝謝黃建斌召委也謝謝部長"},{"start":8626.892,"end":8630.055,"text":"好 接下來我們請徐宇貞委員發言謝謝主席我們請內政部劉部長還有行政院人權及轉型正義處廖副處長好 請上單位 謝謝徐委員好 委員好"},{"start":8646.328,"end":8665.527,"text":"部長 台灣是一個宗教多元而且自由的一個社會喔那尤其宗教團體長期在穩定人心 心辦這個慈善還有教育文化上其實有很大的貢獻大家都很有目共睹喔那我想現在我們看一下我們的這個國家的法治環境喔你可以看一下對於"},{"start":8666.127,"end":8666.347,"text":"所以請問部長"},{"start":8693.607,"end":8722.044,"text":"以台湾信仰人口最多的佛教跟道教的寺庙管理他们的法源这个依据是监督寺庙条例所以本席要先请教这个部长您知道这个是什么时候制定的法律吗18年距离现在非常久民国几年18年那请问一下部长你知不知道这个民国18年的时候我们中华民国的政府是定都在哪里不在台湾"},{"start":8722.62,"end":8748.358,"text":"就定都在南京是嗎所以在南京的中山林我們可以看到那一年中山林剛剛蓋好那也是我們國父孫中安先生剛好入葬南京中山林的時間這已經是100多年前了我們現在還在用民國18年制定的法律管理寺廟事實上是非常的離譜所以現在行政院的也今天有請人權及轉型正義處的副處長來備詢說"},{"start":8752.02,"end":8766.647,"text":"行政院已經要制定反歧視法了所以不需要宗教基本法那副處長可以說明一下嗎為什麼已經可以就是因為制定反歧視法所以不需要宗教基本法這是什麼意思"},{"start":8767.347,"end":8790.321,"text":"我們目前在研擬當中的反歧視法草案把宗教信仰這個特徵也列入禁止歧視的特徵但是在我們的書面報告當中也有提到並不是說我們這是為了落實宗教自由的保障跟平等不歧視的原則我們並沒有提到說因為有反歧視法的規定所以宗教基本法是不是就不需要制定"},{"start":8790.981,"end":8797.246,"text":"所以你們也不反對這個制定宗教基本法嗎只是你們會在另外再有一個這個反歧視法是這樣嗎"},{"start":8798.557,"end":8823.242,"text":"宗教基本法這個部分我們尊重主管機關的權責還有各位委員的審議但是就是反歧視法這邊其實就是在宗教方面是把它列入禁止歧視的特徵那再請教一下部長剛剛我們有提到的就是說這個是在將近100多年前民國18年制定的有監督寺廟條例那請問部長您認為用這樣子的一個制定監督寺廟條例"},{"start":8825.623,"end":8831.127,"text":"民國18年100多年前的這個法令來來管理現在的那個台灣的鐘廟您覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":8834.12,"end":8861.158,"text":"我想是這樣子那個不合時宜的地方我們會改進所以我們很多解釋的法令在18年之後我們在內政部裡面的很多包括有些暫行條例就是跟著他一直在修正也就是說現在很多不同的宗教裡面的需求的話如果不適合譬如說徐委員已經看到我認為以現在台灣的這個社會大概沒有辦法把監督寺廟條例這個監督兩個字擺進去"},{"start":8863.92,"end":8884.246,"text":"然後還有我們也不能講寺廟通常我們都講宗教或是不同的廟宇所以我們未來會朝著這個方向但是是在法律面的一個修正而不是基本法部長 其實針對這個部分為什麼宗教界是期望說立法院能夠早點"},{"start":8885.846,"end":8909.397,"text":"早日制定這個基本法主要就是因為在108年的時候財團法人法的立法過程中宗教界會擔心政治的手深入宗教所以他們才會請求立法院要禁訴立法那尤其是我們這次所提出的宗教基本法的草案版本跟過去很大的不同他目前有6條而且是具體化了我們中華民國憲法第7條"},{"start":8911.178,"end":8929.461,"text":"跟第13條的抽象保障所以保障所以部長在不改變和憲法核心保障平等跟信仰自由的前提之下政府要如何處理宗教團體自治跟國家利益如果公共利益有衝突的狀況之下我們政府要如何管理"},{"start":8930.682,"end":8953.002,"text":"在現在的現行的條文當中完全了解徐委員在詢問的焦點這就是我們在整合上碰到比較大的困難包括我們其實每一年都有請一些學者教授提供給我們一些意見但是我們真正把它變成一個法律來要管所有的宗教確實是很大的困擾"},{"start":8953.903,"end":8972.28,"text":"因為剛剛委員也提到譬如說行政院的人權處要做反歧視法那反歧視法他可能會排除宗教因為宗教他是個比較心靈的或是精神方面的部分但是我們現在我很清楚這個要要建立一個宗教基本法確實很困難他也確實要很大"},{"start":8972.62,"end":8979.163,"text":"很多的問題需要克服但是我們也不能因為難就不做所以為了所以為了妥善的管理這個各項的我們現在所面臨到的問題那所以我們是認為應該先有基本法那我們再來制定執法"},{"start":8988.928,"end":9017.595,"text":"然後妥善的來管理我們所有的相關的問題這樣才是根本之道而不是遇到困難我們就退縮應該是要用什麼樣的方式來去處理所以這個部分請部長針對我們《宗教基本法》能夠再多一些的關注跟多一些的時間去處理那當然我想這個部分大家沒有辦法在今天有怎麼樣的結論但是我覺得充分的討論然後盡快的制定我們的《宗教基本法》是有這個必要性的"},{"start":9018.264,"end":9032.852,"text":"如果委員有這樣提的話如果在立法院裡面會有不同的公聽會然後也邀請不同的這個宗教團體來表達他們的立場那我們在收整意見會更多元因為全台灣各地"},{"start":9033.052,"end":9054.766,"text":"我們到各地縣市地方證 包括民政單位我想我也會非常清楚民政單位的意見跟中央的意見也不一定完全一樣這是我們碰到很大的整合商會的困擾對 希望部長能夠針對這個部分中央基本法的部分多一點的時間來辦不管是公聽會什麼讓大家能夠多一些的討論但是也不能拖因為我們不能再用一百多年前的法律來去管理現在的寺廟"},{"start":9056.187,"end":9069.31,"text":"另外再請教部長一個問題就上週三大陸將實名的台灣詐欺犯以小三通的方式遣返金門請問部長目前兩岸的共打機制是不是已經終止或處於失能的狀況"},{"start":9071.515,"end":9096.808,"text":"報告委員 兩岸共打機制的主管機關除了我們警政單位以外也有法務部那我只能回應警政機關的部分那我們兩岸共打的一個樹木制其實還有而且人員上面的溝通跟交流還在那上禮拜他們這樣丟爆了10名的我們的這個詐欺犯回來的時候請問內政部還有像移民署警政署是什麼時候接獲通知的"},{"start":9097.756,"end":9119.927,"text":"這樣子就是他有兩批一批是實名一批是三名那但是呢他們在中國大陸的遣送單位的是他們地方上的公安那地方上的公安他們做這樣的遣送的規定有沒有報到中央的公安我們正在了解當中請問一下事前沒有獲得完整通報的原因是什麼"},{"start":9121.094,"end":9142.473,"text":"我們正在了解當中因為我們什麼時候可以了解清楚呢報告委員有的時候資訊上的獲得不在我們我方但是我們我們的刑事單位已經有跟他們中央單位來了解因為像他如果未來他持續的像你說第二批的第三名因為金門據說因為是第二次金門據說他叫他搭飛機回來"},{"start":9143.534,"end":9154.179,"text":"其實這樣的問題的話未來可能層出不窮所以這樣的一個共打機制就是因為現在兩岸的關係這麼的緊張所以說共打機制是不是已經形同虛設未來面對這樣的狀況要怎麼處理可能部長要好好的來去思考有的時候發生這個問題並不在我方的共打機制我剛有跟我委員報告過就是說就我粗略的了解還沒有經過證實要跟我委員實際上來講就是說"},{"start":9172.026,"end":9191.373,"text":"他們的中央單位並不了解地方單位為什麼會突然在這個監管這個所謂的通緝犯或者是涉及詐欺的人有的一年就放出來了兩年就放出來然後就直接送到他們覺得最近的這個港口或者最近的機場那當然了我們知道這些人都是台灣人"},{"start":9192.506,"end":9209.944,"text":"那既然領有中華民國身份證的話我們的移民署不可能不讓他們回來這我們的重點在這邊那當時他為什麼就突然送到那個港口或送到機場去我們正在了解這個狀況只知道說中央的這個公安單位啦對於地方的公安單位突然有這樣的舉措"},{"start":9211.546,"end":9232.406,"text":"因為時間已經到了所以我想說我本席今天要表達就是說當這些程序繞過或者失效的時候會衍生什麼樣的問題就是司法管理的問題跟國家安全的漏洞所以這是非常的重要所以說可能請部長還有法務部這邊都要好的正視這樣的問題我們現在在那個兩岸共打機制上面這方面會加強溝通謝謝"},{"start":9237.543,"end":9256.642,"text":"好謝謝徐譽貞委員的質詢接下來我們請吳啟明委員發言好我們召委還有我們一位同仁請我們內政部部長要請部長"},{"start":9260.391,"end":9281.412,"text":"委員好 博長你好 博長針對今天宗教基本法的草案本席在這有提議兩個面向因為立法院法治局已經對宗教基本法提出了肯定的意見我們還是尊重裡面的宗教的平等與宗教的自由"},{"start":9283.073,"end":9308.158,"text":"尤其整個的提升才能在國際的規範轉換具體可操作的制度也能提升台灣人權上的國際形象那我在這邊我整個資料來看都還沒看到行政院的版本那現在我本身也知道我們部長這邊你對這個草案的支持是怎樣"},{"start":9309.017,"end":9324.216,"text":"具體的方向請部長來做說明謝謝委員大部分的委員大概就是沒有分任何的黨派色彩大家都關心宗教團體應該能夠納入我們的法律的系統裡面來管理"},{"start":9325.217,"end":9341.849,"text":"但是就我們的理解我希望說未來對於宗教團體採取的是低度的管理你只要不觸犯其他的法律的話應該都比較好讓宗教可以自由的實現我們在民主社會裡面的信仰的自由"},{"start":9342.489,"end":9358.335,"text":"那所以這樣的方向的話呢提出來我比較會認為說我們是採取用法律案的方式而不是基本法的方式因為基本法的方式的話第一個我們會認為基本法現在提出來三個基本法裡面"},{"start":9358.855,"end":9377.218,"text":"可能對於這個憲法法條三個法條裡面要在統整不是那麼容易那如果是法律的話譬如說宗教團體對於他們現在的這個勸募或者是接受獻金要不要管理還有他們現在所在地尤其是比較多是在山坡地的部分的話"},{"start":9377.779,"end":9404.156,"text":"要不要符合山坡地的保育的條例那另外一個是因為歷史的嚴格太久了比如說七八十年前那個地方的山坡地的保育並沒有規範說不可以蓋廟那為什麼現在說它變成是違法那這個部分可能是當時的這個法律在制定的過程當中沒有那麼嚴謹所以我們要符合新的法律然後不要抵觸到原來舊的這個歷史上面的一個這個"},{"start":9405.937,"end":9432.683,"text":"演變的過程當中那就需要個案來管理那既然個案來管理的話就中央跟地方政府都要能夠一起坐下來講會比較好譬如說地木的變更山坡地它是不是有比較強固的建築因為我們不是為了管而管我們是希望它是為了安全而安全我們是這種心情不是為了要管你也不是為了叫你落水絕對不是這個意思但是你要能夠公開跟透明"},{"start":9433.203,"end":9453.853,"text":"像現在不管是監督寺廟條例或者是財團法人或是這樣子的其他的法人就是希望你不一定要跟政府來報你的財務報表雖然有些團體尤其是基督教或天主教的教團他們會按照原來的母國裡面的規範他們要跟那個政府來報稅但是如果你在信徒代表大會裡面"},{"start":9455.174,"end":9480.197,"text":"公開你的財務也是另外一種透明的方向那這樣子就慢慢慢慢把它導入正軌但是這個需要時間大廟有大廟可以比較快但是小廟有小廟的困擾所以我們會針對這個部分的不希望就一部法令就是把所有的全部管在一起那這樣子的一定到後來會比較多的漏洞這個不是我們帶多的問題而是整合上出現相當多的困擾"},{"start":9480.937,"end":9500.427,"text":"那當然委員會說整合有困擾也要整合啊那我們會來努力好 謝謝部長因為這針對部長你剛才講的山坡地因為過去有很多石廟都在山坡地裡面建立石廟所以我們過去我推動宗教自然的名義奠基不動產的暫行條例"},{"start":9501.447,"end":9514.015,"text":"针对这一点因为我们到明年6月就到期了那是不是能再向我们国土法展演6年因为我们现在申请的有2000多件那申请的"},{"start":9514.98,"end":9541.426,"text":"那個案件比例還不到五成那未來是不是協助因為很多都是死了過去都是借名登記那借名登記應變更多他的三款的問題跟他的董事會有的算委員會造成很多糾紛變成說在這個部分也拜託說補充是不是研究說他的戰勝條例是不是可以再延長"},{"start":9542.542,"end":9545.487,"text":"跟國土計劃法一樣延長到6年"},{"start":9547.08,"end":9576.72,"text":"報告委員 那個委員也是在召委的時候把上一次的展言已經展言了但是這兩年來我給委員報告就是說這兩年來提出的家數跟前兩年差很多前兩年提出的家數有800家那現在延長兩年以後只剩下114家所以我們會針對沒有辦法展言的會去瞭解一下狀況來確定一下下次要不要繼續展言"},{"start":9577.56,"end":9596.351,"text":"因為申請的人越來越少就表示說沒辦法沒辦法 大家做展現也沒辦法解決他的問題現在是 尤其我們的宗教師這方面要怎麼來合作在寺廟 因為有很多時候你顧 已經都很久住了不接轉我們要怎麼認定 要怎麼做協助這是最重要 因為後面都是這問題嘛"},{"start":9606.696,"end":9620.463,"text":"所以你說會做成過去10秒的問題 我們政府也已經提醒改革進行這個問題所以說在未來全部改革的 我們要怎麼去協助畢竟這是大家共同的尊重對 委員 我想你在宗教團體裡面真是尊重但是我們在所做的這些統計"},{"start":9629.247,"end":9634.829,"text":"沒有議員申請的 269 斤沒有正常運作的 180 斤沒辦法提出證明的 230 斤沒有連繫的 159 斤我相信這幾天所提出的廟宇 大家廟宇為主"},{"start":9648.072,"end":9666.453,"text":"大家就是沒辦法可以解決了因為他根本就沒意願或是不可以做這是一種 其他的沒意願的我們就把他排除嘛然後意願的資料不接轉的這要怎麼協助我之前說的部分就是這樣就是說他如果是要繼續提出行情我們來倒三天"},{"start":9666.897,"end":9677.019,"text":"這兩宗只剩下一百四斤過去兩宗是八百斤這表示說我剛才說的這就表示說沒辦法透過戰刑條例解決他們的問題有時候他們沒有意願沒有聯絡 已經沒有運作了這就慢慢消毒掉所以現在如果有需要我們會再考慮但是如果不需要"},{"start":9692.103,"end":9719.706,"text":"我跟地方政府再問清楚 如果不需要 我是領域戰行條例會回到去 作用就不夠大了好 拜託我們相關單位大家去了解單獨的問題就像我說的 例如歷史 工業問題 山坡地或是前法跟後法的適用的問題或者是其他的相關的行政命令可以幫忙處理的 我們會幫忙處理因為有些縣市地方政府確實很積極在幫忙"},{"start":9720.346,"end":9732.39,"text":"但是有些縣市地方政府都放在那所以我們會幫忙 會較早所以如果有這種個案請你隨時跟我們通知 我們會來協助 剩下半年嘛我們就盡量來感呼得嘛 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝吳啓明委員的質詢接下來我們請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":9756.379,"end":9764.982,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請內政部的劉部長劉部長先請劉部長先請教一下劉部長我們去年 今年到目前為止炸氣的財損多少錢"},{"start":9777.099,"end":9800.647,"text":"你是說從那個炸房條例到現在是嗎沒有就今年今年迄今報告我來我來準備一下好嗎大概826億沒有錯吧對嗎826億沒有錯嘛那小紅酥啊最近被軒然大坡被禁了小紅酥啊他炸氣的財損多少錢2億多"},{"start":9805.795,"end":9833.956,"text":"兩億多是2024年到現在826億全台炸雞的財損在小紅書的平台上面負責的大概是兩億多這個比例我相信大家看得蠻清楚部長也應該可以了解就是因為這樣子懸殊的比例只有小紅書被禁引發非常多的議論部長說要守法"},{"start":9835.312,"end":9859.201,"text":"小紅書高風險依照炸防條例第42條近一年這個我看的是內政部的新聞稿台灣是法治國家我們就來依法論法第一個炸防條例第42條規範的要件它在規範的是網路廣告平台業者還是在規範炸氣網站"},{"start":9864.013,"end":9884.902,"text":"來我們看一下法條好不好為了處理詐欺犯罪防制緊急案件及時防制民眾接觸詐欺網站他講的是詐欺網站不是網路廣告平台業者第二個42條絕對不是像你們現在這樣解釋適用"},{"start":9889.162,"end":9912.2,"text":"沒有42條他要處理緊急性的案件他沒有相關的要件標準跟程序他是一個緊急性在移除一夜市的詐欺網站所適用的法條我們再往下看部長說小紅書他拒絕落地不能不遵守台灣的法律那抽象的概念上面來講"},{"start":9914.399,"end":9942.817,"text":"並不是說錯但我們來看一下打炸條例的規範是什麼因為我現在發覺我們大部分的人在討論這個問題的時候什麼大家都沒有依照法律來討論我為什麼講這件事情來看一下在新文化防治條例網路廣告平台業者利用網際網路於中華民國領域內提供網路廣告服務達到一定的規模適用本條例的規定沒有錯吧"},{"start":9945.128,"end":9971.571,"text":"那按照目前適用本條例規定的網路廣告平台業者要交由主管機關來公告納管的名單那目前納管的名單有哪些現在小紅書還沒有納進去不過這個是我們先一樣一樣來我們要利用詐欺危害防制條例那我們台灣是法治國家就要依法"},{"start":9973.995,"end":10000.528,"text":"網路廣告平台業者要依照打造條例納管必須要達到一定的規模由速發布來公告目前速發布公告的有FB有Google有Meta有Line目前依照這個條例納管的網路廣告平台業者只有這四家我的資訊有沒有錯"},{"start":10003.342,"end":10030.631,"text":"沒有錯嘛那小紅書如果你們認為有必要要納管那是主管機關要納管因為我先帶你們看法條規範的要件你要被納管了以後才有法尊的要求這些法尊的要求包括了要求你要在我國落地要指定代理人或管理人要要求他們執行"},{"start":10032.389,"end":10053.873,"text":"打詐條例的法尊措施但問題是我現在我完全看不懂在幹嘛你說小紅書沒有符合我們的法尊要求但問題是你根本連公告納管都沒有啊我現在完全看不懂啊我們的主管機關到底是怎麼在適用法律的你如果認為小紅書很嚴重那就把他納管你一方面又不納管"},{"start":10063.393,"end":10075.922,"text":"你不那管怎麼樣去要求他符合打詐條打詐條例的法尊要求這是法條白紙黑字寫在上面可以示意一下嗎"},{"start":10080.183,"end":10109.188,"text":"報告委員我想您講的部分當然是在法條上的適用的問題啦台灣是法治國家當然是有法律啊當然我完全同意台灣是法治的國家但是我們通知小紅書他也沒有接受我們的通知啊我們是有把這個訊息通知到他兩回事齁你說不能不遵守台灣法律那要遵守台灣法律依照打炸條例的要求依照打炸條例的要求就是要公告納管"},{"start":10110.609,"end":10134.5,"text":"那你也沒有公告他是要納管的範圍因此沒有辦法啟動打詐條例29條以下所有的程序規定我對法條的解釋應該是沒有錯啦現在我完全看不懂我們的政府在幹嘛跟人民說小紅書詐騙很嚴重所以我們要禁但是又沒有依照打詐條例把他納管"},{"start":10135.598,"end":10163.066,"text":"然後突然用了一個在豆腐一頁是詐欺網頁的打詐條例42條這根本法律適用錯誤啊我們為什麼要納管LINE要納管Google要納管Meta因為上面詐騙的訊息太多了嘛所以賦予他們義務我告訴你上面有詐騙的訊息你要移除喔你如果不移除我會處罰你喔"},{"start":10165.543,"end":10192.697,"text":"但是所有的這些義務的要求全部都建立在一個前提上這個網路廣告平台業者必須要被公告納管納管進來了以後你必須要依照打詐條例符合這些配合打詐的要求你如果不配合我接下來啟動法律效果罰你錢啊採取各式各樣法律授權的手段啊"},{"start":10193.936,"end":10214.866,"text":"但是我現在看到內政部在做這件事情是自己完全不守法第一個 我不同意內政部完全守法第一個 它沒有納管啊我們要請它來 它都不理我們啊對嘛 請你回去看法條好不好你如果覺得它有納管的必要"},{"start":10216.141,"end":10233.388,"text":"我們的行政院我們的主管機關該做什麼把他公告成為納管的範圍你必須要遵守你如果不遵守接下來會發生ABCDE打在條例寫得很清楚了但我的書發部根本沒有納管他"},{"start":10234.867,"end":10260.242,"text":"所以根本沒有去看29條的法律構成要件然後我再帶您看一次網路廣告平台業者依照打炸條例27條利用網際網路於中華民國領域內提供網路廣告服務且達一定規模適用本條例的規定那覺得小紅書規模很大有達到這個規模那你就應該要公告啊"},{"start":10261.022,"end":10285.82,"text":"全項一定規模的計算基準由數位經濟相關產業主管主管併資那就速發部要公告啊你也沒有公告把他納管然後你就說他上面詐騙很多然後就限制他然後你限制他引用的條文所以我剛才問你回到你們所引用條文的42條 42條幫出"},{"start":10288.909,"end":10315.05,"text":"當初訴發部的次長現在訴發部的部長我在審法案的時候他說明得很清楚說第一個他必須要涉及到詐欺犯罪所以我才說那個網頁本身被你block住的那個網頁本身他必須要是詐欺犯罪的主體他必須要是詐欺犯罪的主體他封鎖的是詐騙網站"},{"start":10316.94,"end":10344.398,"text":"他不是在封鎖網路廣告平台業者上面有詐騙廣告這是兩回事因為知識體大我一定要講清楚如果可以用42條直接封鎖網路廣告平台業者直接封鎖網路廣告平台業者那打詐條例29條以下的規定形同俱文"},{"start":10345.543,"end":10365.005,"text":"因為29條規定的那麼繁複幹嘛還要公告納管還要遵守一定的程序還要罰錢不用啊42條帝王條款網路廣告平台業者我不公告納管也沒有關係我只要覺得"},{"start":10366.141,"end":10394.421,"text":"你上面有詐騙的廣告我直接用42條封這絕對不是打岔條例當初立法上面的設計42條如果可以拿來對付廣告平台業者的話那29條以下的規定形同具穩通通都不需要了現在我很狐疑啦內政部在做這個決定以前在做這個決定以前"},{"start":10395.478,"end":10420.777,"text":"有跟法務部或者是訴發部會商過嗎有嗎我們有在其他的場合上開會在哪裡開會在會議紀錄可以給我嗎沒辦法因為這是沒有關係啊你就告訴全台灣民眾你們在哪裡開會因為我很詫異啦內政部如果看不懂打詐條例或許情有可原"},{"start":10421.57,"end":10438.693,"text":"如果連法務部都看不懂那就知識體大請問在什麼地方徵詢過法務部的什麼官員我們在行政院的時候有開會討論過這個部分然後法務部的代表有來那個法務部的參事今天有來嗎來請參事請法務部參事內政部打詐條例42條這樣適用法務部是贊成的嗎"},{"start":10451.653,"end":10470.179,"text":"我真的很驚訝報告委員因為我們今天是法治司列席我所接觸到的公文我是沒有看到有這樣一個含詢的公文沒有這樣含詢的公文就含詢的公文我是沒有看到但是我剛剛問的問題意思你應該聽得清楚嗎你應該聽得懂吧是您聽得懂嗎"},{"start":10471.68,"end":10492.012,"text":"我有很認真在聽不過這部分涉及到主管機關對法令的解釋解釋上當然如果有些疑義的話可能還是要回歸跟主管機關之間的對話所以法務部是不便表示意見就對了就這一題的話我覺得還是要看主管機關跟委員之間的對話會比較好"},{"start":10492.979,"end":10517.389,"text":"這不是主管機關跟我的對話 台灣是法治國家法律一生效具有普遍全面適用性這個是政府跟人民的對話現在連人民都看不懂了連人民都看不懂 打炸條例42條可以這樣用喔哇 我的老天啊那42條可以這樣用 29條以下全部都廢了啦42條是超級帝王條款FB LINE"},{"start":10520.39,"end":10542.837,"text":"Google29條以下都不要看啦42條以後只要在那個網路平台頁折上面有詐欺的廣告在上面我直接用42條就屏蔽了什麼時候把這條例賦予主管機關這樣的權限因為剛剛部長說他們有在其他的場合徵詢法務部的意見我聽了這句大驚失色"},{"start":10543.94,"end":10569.48,"text":"這是法務部的專業意見啊這個可能要再跟部長確認沒有關係你就回去確認沒有關係你就回去確認嘛我就回去確認啊因為剛剛部長說有在其他場合遇到法務部有交換意見啊那我非常的詫異啊是不是可以請你回去的時候轉呈部長回去問一下"},{"start":10570.765,"end":10595.45,"text":"法務部什麼時候什麼人表達過這樣的法律意見知識體大非常嚴重因為我現在是依法論法我沒有在搞什麼意識形態沒有在進行什麼政治操作當然我也不是什麼小紅書的代言人我自己根本沒有在用小紅書但是我接到很多人反應因為上面好像做很多的是彩妝 化妝的"},{"start":10598.276,"end":10625.565,"text":"可能都是一些比較我們的就是一些對化妝有興趣或者是其他什麼服飾有興趣的人在看的我自己是沒有用但是後來這個風波搞得這麼大我稍微把法條看一看在看了內政部的解釋我看了我只能夠說我就是大驚失色大驚失色打詐條例當初在審議的時候一條一條做下來審是涉法不是這樣用的今天警政署有代表來嗎"},{"start":10627.357,"end":10647.702,"text":"來請政署的代表是誰告訴你們42條可以這樣用是哪一位法律專家告訴你們42條這樣用跟委員報告這個造房條例第42條就像剛剛委員您非常清楚所提到就是說其實所謂的一定規模我們這個前面的部分是依據造房條例27條公告列管的網路廣告平台業者"},{"start":10648.382,"end":10672.068,"text":"那因為在當初小紅書他每一個月獨立的訪客數只有42萬人是所以他沒有達到我們的這一個不是啊那我就看不懂啊所以跟您報告啊那你如果覺得他的詐欺規模很大很嚴重就公告納管啊所以我們在用的四十二條就是針對這個並沒有他未達規模沒有納管的我們的立法意志裡面四十二條規範的對象"},{"start":10674.329,"end":10680.811,"text":"是詐欺網站還是網路廣告平台業者我們現在是網路平台業者詐欺網站來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":10696.397,"end":10713.426,"text":"只要上面有詐騙的訊息它就構成了詐欺網站是嗎 你的法律解釋是這樣嗎跟委員解釋一下 我們是說當初我們的立法意思當初是說為了要防止民眾去接觸詐欺網站所以不管是司法警察機關或者是各目的世界專機關就是說"},{"start":10714.326,"end":10733.184,"text":"只要是有緊急案件的狀況就有機制處理的必要就會通知網際網路接取服務提供者但是你完全沒有回答問題請你不要看著你的稿在念因為我請教你的問題你現在手上背的稿完全沒有辦法回應問題"},{"start":10734.565,"end":10747.682,"text":"你不要在那邊裝忙讓在看這個直播的人覺得說好像你講的很有道理但是大家仔細一聽發現你在念稿根本沒在回答問題剛剛你講的緊急性必要性的要件聽得懂"},{"start":10748.462,"end":10776.262,"text":"要防止炸雞的目的大家聽得懂可以採取的措施大家聽得懂但是我現在跟你在討論的是規範的課題42條規範的課題當初在立法的時候處理的是炸雞網站什麼叫炸雞網站這個網站從頭到尾都要炸雞就你們在抓的所謂一夜市的網站那本身就是犯罪行為他是犯罪行為人的犯罪工具那現在什麼叫網記"},{"start":10778.204,"end":10794.889,"text":"廣告平台業者FB是嘛LINE是嘛Google是嘛他們在上面有人在上面刊登一些東西廣告上面有詐欺的訊息這是兩件不一樣的事耶"},{"start":10797.437,"end":10822.219,"text":"42條用的是詐欺網站不是網路平台業者所以我很好奇誰告訴警政署我們針對網路廣告平台業者可以用42條的這是我的問題因為法條白紙黑字那個你可以看一下螢幕你可以看一下螢幕那個法條的文字我怕你忘記我還把他列在上面給你們看誰告訴你可以用在"},{"start":10823.673,"end":10851.594,"text":"網路廣告平台業者上的因為我們是同時是因為他是詐欺網頁詐欺網站所以我們會令我們是讓令他提供接取服務的提供者同時要做停止解析或者去限制接取所以我們是在講是說這個是網路平台業對你在看上面就寫詐欺網站所以我就問你一題嘛你們42條的解釋這個詐欺網站包括"},{"start":10852.968,"end":10866.81,"text":"網路廣告平台業者是嗎你如果這樣子解釋的話我跟你講要出大事了不是不是那問題來啦你除非說整個小紅書就是詐欺網站否則你怎麼屏蔽"},{"start":10867.95,"end":10891.859,"text":"你認為小紅書整個就是詐欺網站嗎整個小紅書就是詐騙行為人在進行詐騙用的網頁嗎是嗎 包圍我們現在針對是街道檢舉跟以及有受理報案的詐欺的網頁去做停職解析先停一下喔所以你現在是小紅書上面只涉及到詐欺的停職解析還是整個小紅書都停職解析"},{"start":10893.322,"end":10914.204,"text":"因為針對他的去接取的這些的提供者我們會一併的會去做這方面的一個體制解析對不起你沒有跟限制接取你沒有回答我的問題如果按照你今天的解釋可以成立的話那FB上面啦只要有詐欺廣告整個FB你都可以用42條屏蔽耶這是天大地大的事耶"},{"start":10915.76,"end":10930.847,"text":"當初打詐條例就不是這樣設計的啊所以我一直在問你們啊你們在動用這個條文的時候到底請教了什麼法律專家什麼法律主管機關告訴你們打詐條例42條可以這樣用啊這是我的問題誰提出這個專業的看法42條如果給你們警政署這麼大的權利啊那嚇死人啊真的嚇死人啊"},{"start":10945.498,"end":10968.426,"text":"那速發部幹嘛要公告一定規模才要納管不用啦大大小小的任何即使不是詐欺網站之本身即使是廣告平台業者上面有詐欺的訊息我就可以用42條屏蔽我再說一次打詐條例從來沒有給你們這樣的權限打詐條例從來沒有給你們這樣的權限"},{"start":10974.079,"end":11003.032,"text":"我要拜託警政署你們回去你們回去好好再看一看當初打炸條例在研擬的過程當中在研擬的過程當中42條是這樣用的喔我完全不敢相信啊42條絕對不是這樣用的因為42條如果可以這樣用我再說一次29條以下的規範形同句文毫無意義那現在出了這樣的事情"},{"start":11004.4,"end":11028.03,"text":"你們引用了錯誤的法條把自己的權限擴張到這麼大那新聞已經鬧成那麼大了連總統都出來力挺了連總統都出來力挺喔我看賴清德總統應該也是沒看過法條了相信你們現在出了這麼大的包接下來怎麼收拾你們自己回去好好想一想"},{"start":11029.775,"end":11052.623,"text":"真的你們自己回去好好想一想我再次建議你們回去好好看一看42條當初怎麼擬出來的包委員可能有所誤會我們就是針對我們所蒐集到受理報案的詐欺網頁會喊給TWNIC去做這個停止解析所以我常問你嘛所以整個小紅書在你的定義裡面它就是詐欺網頁是嗎它是詐欺網站嗎是嗎是嗎"},{"start":11057.543,"end":11070.492,"text":"我們基本上就是依照這個規定去做停止解析你就不要再強制剝離了啦你就回答一個問題嘛整個小紅書在警政署的眼中是一個詐欺網站是符合42條構成要件的詐欺網站是嗎是這樣解釋的嗎"},{"start":11074.952,"end":11084.419,"text":"是12條當初的立法 意思是這樣嗎我告訴你啊任何 任何沒有 沒有關係你回去世界上各個國家哪一個國家為了打詐給我們的警察機關這麼大的權利哪一個國家可以讓你這樣子解釋不要去栽贓齁說我們不打詐"},{"start":11103.749,"end":11129.051,"text":"打詐打得很兇啦班委員這個真的是誤會我們其實不是光小紅書我們在Meta那個IG我們只要是你有涉及詐欺的網頁我們都會含蓄給TW進行這個停止解析的動作所以呢你講那個部分我們其實事實上沒關係啦你可以繼續開記者會自言自語我直詢的point我相信有看的人"},{"start":11130.287,"end":11144.095,"text":"完全都catch到了我也不要浪費大家的時間那你們就回去好好想一想這樣子字義的解釋法條擴全到這種程度接下來你們要怎麼收拾就好了謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接下來我們請聽學中文發言"},{"start":11162.881,"end":11168.989,"text":"感謝召委我請宗教理事林市長市長這個宗教機關法跟委員報告宗教"},{"start":11181.397,"end":11194.586,"text":"宗教諮詢法宗教諮詢法是宗教諮詢基本法這是有三個版本嘛對 董國民黨一個版本還有樂園園支委一個版本然後我們許立委一個版本對 我們將這個官官將他們送來輸贏這個稅贏有分隊償還"},{"start":11205.693,"end":11212.056,"text":"不是反對因為我們現在說結合大家的共識結合大家共識以後我們再來慢慢來擬定對啦我們這個宗教基本法一直有宗教團體都非常期待是真正我具體提出30億的冠軍是但是到這一屆縮減到全裸的裸掉了是這就是去除爭議希望可以看出"},{"start":11234.995,"end":11254.886,"text":"我們這個宗教基金花的地盤現在已經高中我們宗教主流大家都清楚第七條是宗教的競爭第十三條高中宗教主流但同時土耳其的海水也已經高中我們中華民國"},{"start":11257.182,"end":11261.171,"text":"我全宗教的福祉、骨骼也沒有完整,臨頂五分是危險的,"},{"start":11266.807,"end":11276.37,"text":"部分是危險的尤其是當這要提前一點宗教管理可以用老法令也可以靠行政之道要有完整法律的架構讓這個基本法可以存在更久的"},{"start":11290.606,"end":11293.488,"text":"其實我們現在針對宗教團隊的輔導啦除了說是我們有一個建築事業條例 但是因為當初司法院的解釋裡面 也覺得說他這個稍微不適合所以我們要去聽聽很多解釋 包括大法官揮世智啦我們要做來解釋 其實我們現在對宗教輔導最主要的就是我們輔導他一定要地平 組織章程不管你的行為 你的收支 你的算計 你後面就是你的組織"},{"start":11320.73,"end":11334.615,"text":"你要訂定一個組織商城你選舉 你有信任代表 要有幾個你的主委是怎麼選舉的或是針對家來低度管理來輔導他有沒有違法這個問題對啦 所以就是我們現在總共大家都有可能會看區域出國去考慮"},{"start":11345.231,"end":11356.075,"text":"大家都常常有像我前陣子也這樣人家都在跟我說 拜託說明年要去種植物 要去掛樹種稿交流 這是主要的啊這是主要的嘛 市長對 大家有報告 其實我們是不能夠去啦不過我們現在就要建立一個健康 要說有序的重要交流但是 但是我們是"},{"start":11369.801,"end":11378.163,"text":"我們是真正跟他們說你們可以去這是自由的沒有 大家要報告啦我是鼓勵說你如果真的需要你的中澳交流你一定要注意你跟我們講自由的不可以講無法接受的就是要給我們智慧嘛這樣智慧讓他們像我們就有很大的一個壓力你知道嗎是讓他們像我們就有很大的壓力像我已經跟你們說了說我要去大陸交流"},{"start":11394.878,"end":11398.842,"text":"但是過去常常發生到,我去大陸交流,回去被人家帶去調查常常發生到這個,當我們分明關,我就看到整個案子這讓我們的總督團隊,他們有一個很安定的身分證"},{"start":11413.072,"end":11419.914,"text":"其實我們中港交流其實是自由的自由之後就是說我都鼓勵說你如果要去台中進行一定要去我們的網站裡面登錄你是對一個中港團體你或是別人去其實那個網站我差不多七天左右就可以看到了最主要是要保證說你去可以安全去安全回來我們的組織像這樣"},{"start":11438.982,"end":11440.243,"text":"安全當然,我們要讓他們有這個觀念,不是說你來給我登記就是當時的總紀委給我拿去調查,今天有勤,是當時生機營,還在錄影廠"},{"start":11453.79,"end":11461.031,"text":"三幾年 只要邀約去大陸宗教交流去營養 關於家族回來好 這些都不用再去調查這是事實 我說這是事實我也不會說後面去跟你們 後面看看什麼後面去親自跟你們說說什麼我講這是事實希望我們宗教交流可以更加健康"},{"start":11479.415,"end":11482.88,"text":"我們要讓宗教還留有正義的阿嬌讓他們山上苦衷大的阿嬌宗教可以放人上山可以有社會經濟更好我們要用正義"},{"start":11494.654,"end":11505.842,"text":"把宗教的這個風格保護他這樣好不好謝謝胡議員其實我們的宗教交流我們屬於應該是我所了解沒有正式的介入啦其實我們現在會回來譬如說已經打了交流之後回來之後那就是涉及到說他有外在行為因為我們宗教的隊伍內部你說宗教信仰我說去啊去參與什麼你如果外在行為說跟錢有關嗎跟等等有關嗎那就是另外一個角度啦還是"},{"start":11522.714,"end":11527.055,"text":"應該是 如果是單純的宗教交流應該是沒那麼難對啦 到目前為止你們可以查到說因為宗教交流來去違反了國家的什麼體制的範圍應該是都沒辦法的我們會積極來輔導對啦 這個國分再快一點好 市長好 辛苦謝謝 感謝卓飛"},{"start":11547.317,"end":11575.544,"text":"謝謝第一學中委員的質詢接下來我們請許志傑委員發言許志傑委員許志傑委員不在請蘇清泉委員發言蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在現在我們請羅賓才委員羅賓才羅賓才委員不在現在請岳元之委員發言主席好 麻煩請部長"},{"start":11578.942,"end":11587.878,"text":"請劉部長委員好部長好今天大家討論的宗教基本法那當然"},{"start":11588.789,"end":11608.491,"text":"內政部的立場是認為說因為憲法已經有相關規範了所以沒有必要再去訂定宗教基本法但本席是認為這樣邏輯不存在因為實際上憲法有規定很多事情後來也都有訂定基本法憲法認為教育很重要我們也有相關教育的基本法"},{"start":11609.264,"end":11632.854,"text":"我覺得部長不要先入為主如果說內政部對於宗教基本法相關法條的細節你認為哪裡有問題哪裡有問題我覺得這個可以在審查法案的時候來討論但不要先入為主認為說沒有必要啦就說這個不要立我覺得這個已經就是剝奪大家討論這事情的空間了所以我還是蠻支持主席今天排"},{"start":11633.527,"end":11651.165,"text":"排這個案子 備詢我希望說下次如果還有進一步的時候內政部可以用一個比較開放的態度來討論這個事情畢竟我覺得宗教 自由這個是非常上位的人權跟自由的概念那是非常需要受到重視應該要有一個上位的法律啦我問過部長可不可以啦"},{"start":11651.607,"end":11679.648,"text":"是 謝謝委員委員今天的發言我們都聽到了那就是宗教基本法我們也是就那個每一個條文裡面的宗教基本法有沒有抵觸到我們現在一般的實體法令也提出我們見解那大部分的人都希望說行政院提出一個宗教基本法但是在內政部到目前為止整理的意見剛剛我們已經說過很多次就是我們的宗教諮詢委員大概有90%認為現在沒有公示因為這個你很多講我只能問一個態度啦所以聽起來"},{"start":11680.208,"end":11705.279,"text":"聽起來你不反對定宗教基本法嗎我比較傾向說我們是先訂定譬如說宗教團體法而不是基本法因為如果你要講基本法的概念的話可能我們牽涉到的就是要把我覺得這個不然這也沒有什麼一定要先再怎麼樣後啦我也不覺得一定有什麼前後抵觸基本法的位階跟一般法律的位階是不一樣的不然你就可以同時"},{"start":11706.299,"end":11723.13,"text":"訂出來大家一起討論也可以啦來看看是不是一定要先訂你講的宗教傳統法這也是一個方向要嘛就一起提出來討論啦就不要用黨的態度啦欸沒有沒有我想OKOK你如果是支持的你如果是支持我覺得大家就往前推進啦就是什麼方法分進合集或"},{"start":11723.89,"end":11741.462,"text":"說怎麼樣我覺得OK但是大家就往前推進了然後我也來問一下這個有關於詐欺問題因為我早上的時候看張志仁委員問部長張志仁委員是擔心說因為現在小紅書進一年之後會出現很多VPN或是翻牆的軟體"},{"start":11742.728,"end":11765.936,"text":"那可能會出現很多假的小紅書或者是假的VPN然後就會讓不熟悉網站的人他可能以為他上了一個假的小紅書或上一個VPN但實際上這個VPN跟這個小紅書可能是一個詐騙網站也就是說你在禁止小紅書的同時你也助長了很多詐欺網站"},{"start":11766.616,"end":11774.576,"text":"存在的這樣的一個效果所以他問部長說那這部分怎麼辦那我那時候看部長的回答是說你無法處理這件事情"},{"start":11775.379,"end":11799.375,"text":"我有沒有誤會這個我想不是這樣子那你要因為你那時候說這不是你管理的範圍不是我的意思就是說有一部分在這個詐欺犯罪危害條例裡面有一部分是數位經濟的產業主管機關他們在負責的那這個警政署所負責的部分是在抓跟這個詐欺有關的部分那如果有詐欺網站出現的話我們會繼續抓但是會比較不容易抓得到我覺得有點本位主義為什麼因為這件事情確實是你進小紅書所引發出來的效果"},{"start":11805.679,"end":11826.619,"text":"那當然站在政府機關的立場尤其是我們還有打詐中心本來就要把這個可能的效果也有委員提醒你們就要納入去思考說什麼去規範那你說不關內政部的事可是問題是你回答的讓我感覺在推嘛不然你就把它擔下來嘛因為你今天打詐你現在進小紅書出來發言的都是內政部的次長啊"},{"start":11827.662,"end":11854.925,"text":"也是歸你管的啊報告那個內政部的次長他是行政院詐欺是沒有錯你當然可以但是我就覺得就本位主義嘛今天就是因為內政部次長報告靜曉夫這件事情所以大家很多委員會來跟你反映嘛因為你們也畢竟也是同個單位雖然他也在行政院打詐中心但你說他在打詐中心所以就不關我的事我雖然是他的長官可是他是另外一個任務我覺得這樣的態度太官僚了"},{"start":11855.782,"end":11876.561,"text":"大家不能接受所以希望所以希望不為什麼你都不對著麥克風講話對不起你這樣感覺好像我叫你罰站你不要這樣子我們和藍可親好不好我跟蔣講的話你就這樣我們來改進沒有沒有我在跟你對話嘛我在跟你對話所以我覺得那個事情是要處理的是要處理的希望說你今天有"},{"start":11877.185,"end":11894.262,"text":"聽到委員的建議回去就不管是跟馬事員次長講或者是達到中心或者是警察反應說可能會有這次這樣的狀況第二個就是馬事員次長昨天講的東西我也覺得很奇怪叫超前封鎖他說因為他預判"},{"start":11895.703,"end":11908.258,"text":"未來小紅書一定會進入到更多的詐騙因為Meta或什麼其他的平台已經這個詐騙有合作有減少所以未來詐騙者會轉進小紅書我認為他是對網路完全不了解"},{"start":11909.434,"end":11937.59,"text":"因為像Meta很多詐騙的網站他是冒用名人啊冒用主播冒用名人騙大家投資什麼之類這以前大家都講很多次謝金河還生氣啊說為什麼每次反應都不下架後來當時速發部的部長唐鳳說不是不下架是防不勝防下架一個又上來一個下架一個又上來一個那這個是受眾的問題嘛你覺得他們有可能假冒名人跑到小紅書去去騙那些青少年投資嗎所以這個講這個話是完全對"},{"start":11938.888,"end":11964.597,"text":"我覺得對網路生態的不了解感覺是硬掰出來的啦這個部長你沒有要替他回答是不是不是因為那個馬次長他所提到的部分是在他打詐中心的職責那如果裡面有這些發言上面引起委員困擾的部分我們來檢討喔喔所以好好好那請你轉達因為有人蠻會推的耶太極高手"},{"start":11967.759,"end":11989.18,"text":"我說你太極拳應該打得不錯我不會太極拳好 那既然這樣 趙委那我就質詢到這邊因為我比較難對應對太極高手 好 謝謝好 謝謝燕姿委員的質詢那接下來我們請高金樹委員高金樹沒委員 高金樹委員不在謝謝牛許廷委員發言"},{"start":11995.422,"end":12010.162,"text":"謝謝主席 劉部長 劉部長有請請部長是 呃 林委員好辛苦這今天很多委員當然今天主題是宗教基本法我們待會花點時間討論但小紅書這個事在輿論上面有很多的攻防跟風波但我覺得有些話要講講清楚"},{"start":12010.734,"end":12026.06,"text":"現在很多人去講說當初在野黨也非常支持炸防條例第42條的修正沒有錯啊當初我們就坐在這個地方討論這個但那個時候我要還原一下當時的狀況當時我們去授予行政機關可以停止解析特定的網域他其實是有理由的嘛"},{"start":12026.431,"end":12045.558,"text":"理由是什麼我們在討論所謂的平台詐騙的時候它的模式是很清楚的也就是說我運用平台的自然流量比如說Meta的也好Line的也好等等也好它都是一樣的模式也就是說我用這個網站它的社交互動然後導引它透過連結轉到一個外部的詐騙網站然後在那個網站上行使詐騙行為"},{"start":12046.658,"end":12068.773,"text":"部長應該不會反對我這樣說那是我們當初討論的結果不是嗎對不對是那我也是把當時在回顧一下當時的部分我們立法的意旨也寫在後面不是寫在法條裡面所以給你快速打擊去設定解析網易權益其實就是要你趕快透過平台端的協助立刻抓到網站然後把網站停止解析這個才是真正的打仗"},{"start":12069.213,"end":12097.986,"text":"那今天會引起軒然大波當然是因為你把它上綱道變成可以處理平台當然你有你的說法這我們也當然敬表尊重當然也會影響到人民的生活人民自然而然會給這樣的措施一個答案結果也會有時間來公佈但我覺得要還原清楚這個事情不能說因為你們當初也支持42條所以今天這樣子就不能講不是的要把話說清楚我們當初講42條給你用的目標其實當初講得很清楚就是針對這些導引到外部網站的這些網站"},{"start":12098.626,"end":12116.956,"text":"進行精準打擊這個才是停止解析網易真正的用途不管詐騙來自於小紅書也好抖音也好或者是Facebook、IG、Threads或者是LINE都一樣針對這些網站去做精準的打擊跟封鎖才是真正的打詐這一點核心序可以嗎部長我想講應該沒有背離道理吧"},{"start":12117.546,"end":12142.031,"text":"沒有 但是牛委員給我三秒鐘的時間我就是還原當時這是那個書面的資料三秒鐘到了沒關係 多一點對不起有即時處置我把上半截截掉了有即時處置的必要的時候得通知網際網路接取服務提供者也就是IASP進行體質檢析或是限制接取的處置攔阻惡意或不當網域名稱"},{"start":12143.131,"end":12159.205,"text":"所以就是叫你封網站的意思叫你封網站剛剛有些委員詢問的是沒有給我們比較充足的機會來解釋我們希望重點回到打炸像內政部講的重點是打炸那要打出成績要注意回到今天的主題宗教基本法的修法"},{"start":12160.245,"end":12185.82,"text":"這個 部長啊這個修法也不是第一次討論了憑良心講這過去在2015、2016的時候其實就有提過一個版本的所謂的宗教基本法那這個宗教基本法談比較多的是相關的一些管制措施嘛就希望透明化、納管等等那當然地方上他就有一些意見後來這個修法就不了了之後來也曾經有當初在黨的委員提出了比較貼近這個基層宗教團體所期待的宗教團體法那這個東西又好像"},{"start":12186.38,"end":12201.779,"text":"保障好像又過了頭了社會輿論也有已經的反彈所以後來也撤案 最後也不了了之那今天感覺起來新的這個中校基本法本黨黨團提出的還有幾位委員提出的感覺比較介於這兩者的稍微位置光譜上來講稍微偏比較中間一點"},{"start":12202.319,"end":12231.859,"text":"那其實我看了今天因為很多就像部長剛剛講他是一報根本法所以很多的部會機關都表達了意見但我覺得這次他的報告其實寫得蠻好的比如說農業部他說這個有關於放生這是宗教行為嘛那放生上跟公共利益有若干抵觸希望條文上做一些精進教育部講說我學校的部分要跟宗教保持一定的距離所以在條文上要更加精進我覺得這些內容我覺得即便是在議長提案的我也都可以接受但是如果因為有這些疑義然後就通通不處理也不討論這樣是不是有點奇怪"},{"start":12232.199,"end":12257.209,"text":"部長再請問一下你的看法報告委員第一個我們行政院目前為止並沒有提宗教基本法因為宗教基本法不在於內政部的位階所以按照內政部跟很多地方的公廟團體或地方政府接觸我們覺得現在有可能最大公約數在提出宗教團體法而不是用宗教基本法並不是說我們從頭到尾都反對因為我們跟宗教團體接觸的機會真的非常的多"},{"start":12258.169,"end":12274.922,"text":"像民意代表到處也都接觸到所以我們希望用法律來服務這些宗教團體而不是說就是直接講說自由那自由就是變成都沒有限制的自由這個是我覺得不是太妥當的地方本長黨團體他基本上也是"},{"start":12275.7,"end":12300.766,"text":"很原則性的一些規範那當然若干條文可以做精進我相信大家會用開放的心態來看待但我覺得既然都要討論不管是剛剛部長講可能是由部裡面來提宗教團體法或者是說現在也許宗教基本法往下進到討論的階段的時候我覺得若干的其實講白了就是劃線嘛那我希望的是劃線的時候至少得到行政計畫比較具體的回答比如說農業部講說放生我們要怎麼寫教育部講說學校我們要怎麼寫"},{"start":12301.486,"end":12320.127,"text":"我覺得每一個條文有一些具體的行政機關的建議那他也許他就可以往前走要不然如果提一個比如管制色彩很濃的地方一定反對提一個如果只有很空泛的權力保障的可能行政機關會有異議那到最後這整件事還是如同2015到現在已經10年了還是會空轉我覺得也不太好啦"},{"start":12320.487,"end":12331.563,"text":"那如果是部長剛剛有講嘛你的宗教諮詢委員你們也開了會來進行一些討論有沒有機會是把它導引成變成現在這個版本的一些條文的修正的建議讓我們討論的時候可以更具體而且也更落實呢"},{"start":12332.975,"end":12349.34,"text":"這個是一個方向但是站在我們的立場因為我們剛剛有提到我們有討論過他在憲法位階上面所以用宗教基本法這樣子的部分就是也有委員提到說宗教的定義到底是什麼有些心理成長的課程你就要列為是宗教所以我才會說由下而上會比由上而下"},{"start":12355.862,"end":12382.959,"text":"因為所有的委員的版本都知道要尊重憲法然後也有人贏兩公約我們都不會反對但是到底是由下而上還是由上而下這個兩者之間所以我剛才提到就是說站在我們內政部可以接觸到的宗廟團體的範圍內的話取一個宗教團體法先來可能可行性會比較高但是因為今天的這個討論版本是三個宗教基本法為主所以我們就沒有表達我們的立場"},{"start":12383.479,"end":12405.336,"text":"如果講議事室行政院可能內政部有在研擬宗教團體法對不對 一個布版的那這個有沒有時間表咧好久以來就有這樣的說法但是因為每次委員不是各位委員 這個宗教諮詢委員可能有不同的意見嘛出去就回來幾乎都沒有辦法有共識這也是我們在立法過程當中碰到的困擾你遇到的具體困擾 沒關係那我覺得今天因為今天只是"},{"start":12406.676,"end":12429.691,"text":"要不要討論其實要收集更多的意見讓他能夠完整而且可以被落實我想取得一個平衡點才是各方所樂見的一個結果所以我剛也建議就是說要不要在立法院裡面有類似這樣的公聽會或什麼的沒關係這是議題嘛要不然我每年也是委託很多大學來處理這個來內政部相關的因為今天當然你修法按照往例當然就提供修法意見而已嘛但其實剛剛部長在回答很多委員答詢的時候有講啊"},{"start":12430.291,"end":12452.678,"text":"還有比如說宗教你們內部資訊委員會的會議記錄啊或者是相關的一些跟這個法條跟你修法方向相關的一些資料是不是可以先提供給內政委員會的委員來做一下參考那未來大家不管講是基本法往前走或者是跟宗教團體法來做一定的結合至少大家有憑有據也可以比較做周延的討論是不是請內政部來提供相關的資料我們會來努力好 謝謝"},{"start":12457.864,"end":12474.538,"text":"好 謝謝劉徐庭委員的質詢那登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘經理發言完畢答詢結束委員高金素美琪心理所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":12476.443,"end":12490.284,"text":"書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會討論事項所列議案並定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"166298","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166298","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c03966f0f3aedfddacff56a78bd28eb12219f30473e88220b30fb57351b41a9d0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"11:13:43 - 11:31:37","影片長度":"00:17:54","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T11:13:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T11:31:37+08:00","duration":1074,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.46409375,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.345343750000001,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.715968750000002,"end":17.867843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.867843750000002,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.03659375,"end":18.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.656593750000003,"end":68.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.25221875,"end":91.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.35846875,"end":109.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.25534375000001,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.19534375,"end":144.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.26284375,"end":109.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.42721875000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.11721875,"end":123.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.28909375,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.46409375000002,"end":144.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.66659375,"end":173.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.32909375,"end":179.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.12096875,"end":186.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.96471875,"end":181.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.83784375000002,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.13284375,"end":199.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.41096875000002,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.37971875000002,"end":210.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.00221875000003,"end":246.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.50721875000002,"end":251.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.97471875000002,"end":255.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.37909375000004,"end":264.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.10346875,"end":274.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.97534375000004,"end":299.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.46096875,"end":335.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.69159375000004,"end":343.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.23034375000003,"end":345.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.81659375000004,"end":355.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.00909375000003,"end":357.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.32534375,"end":366.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.63596875,"end":369.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.40784375000004,"end":377.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.06909375000004,"end":379.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.29221875,"end":383.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":383.49846875000003,"end":397.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.31909375000004,"end":402.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":400.03596875000005,"end":400.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.36471875,"end":408.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.76034375,"end":416.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.12221875,"end":417.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":416.30346875000004,"end":419.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.72909375,"end":422.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.23909375000005,"end":427.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.32284375,"end":450.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.91409375,"end":478.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.33596875,"end":481.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.67721875,"end":487.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.87034375,"end":490.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":490.92471875,"end":493.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.04659375000006,"end":495.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":494.13096875,"end":494.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":495.49784375,"end":496.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.16846875000005,"end":497.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.92784375,"end":499.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.13846875,"end":505.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.66034375000004,"end":518.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.86971875,"end":521.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.56534375,"end":528.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.5222187500001,"end":543.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.89346875,"end":528.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SP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謝謝趙偉 那請請這個 請部長六元好"},{"start":19.913,"end":48.593,"text":"我想今天其實還有我其實最近在看還是有今天是審查這個身心障礙者權益保障法但我想在開始詢答之前我還是觀察到有一些不管是民間或者是有一些狀況還是會用殘障這兩個字來稱呼障礙者我想這是比較不友善的語句所以還是要先強調我們的法規是從早期的殘福法都已經證明為身心障礙者權益保障所以希望各界還是以障礙者作為稱呼"},{"start":49.634,"end":68.271,"text":"那我想今天身權法的修法不僅是這個行政管理的技術性的調整其實是必須是一場關於權力主體性的法律革命是要將身心障礙者從被照顧的課題要轉化為擁有完整決策權的公民"},{"start":69.352,"end":90.894,"text":"所以其實目前部長有很多生權法有不同的委員有提出不同的版本大概有21個那後面也陸陸續續有多個提新的那我每個去看了一下每個委員關注的重點也不盡相同但是唯獨不見到我們的部會的或者行政院的版本請問一下你們的版本什麼時候會送到送出來"},{"start":91.777,"end":110.334,"text":"跟委員報告行政院基本上之前是已經完成審查但是因為上個禮拜有跟這個身障團體在進行會面之後討論完之後我們再修了一下所以我們應該是在這個月底或者是下個月初就會送到這個月底或下個月初"},{"start":111.095,"end":129.756,"text":"因為根據我的統計生權法上一屆排審的情況如圖即便有數次的逐條審查其實但在111年底以後就沒有再排審過最終也是無疾而終所以我想大家也知道這個重中之重的其中一點也是所謂的個人助理的制度入法"},{"start":130.356,"end":144.152,"text":"那個人助理的問題呢其實本席在6月的時候也問過前部長啊那也在質詢台上面放過這個育姊障礙者育姊的影片想要請問一下部長你個人支持個人各助的制度入法嗎"},{"start":145.433,"end":171.434,"text":"基本上我們是很支持這個自立生活服務這一項這個已經在法裡面那麼在自立生活裡頭呢那麼個人助理是其中一個選項那在我們的這個身心障礙者個人照顧服務辦法裡面就有專章去列出那麼個人助理的相關那至於說是不是要更細節性的規範部長因為你蠻會溝通的請問你跟我們的這個"},{"start":175.177,"end":176.34,"text":"我們的這個障礙者團體們"},{"start":177.888,"end":206.167,"text":"溝通完之後你認為是你還是覺得說現在的是夠的嗎那不然他們怎麼還是我覺得大家還是知道統統之中當然是不夠那他的狀況有幾個情形一個是各地的地方政府的執行的不一致那這個呢跟入不入法大概不見得有直接關係來 部長我跟你說啦因為生權法本屆算是重新捲土再來啦那我也要特別感謝這個劉建國召委排這個綜合的巡打"},{"start":206.647,"end":223.077,"text":"那希望你們的機關可以儘速提出一個可以讓大家權衡完之後大家都滿意的版本那這次的因為生權法的大修其實是攸關許多這個障礙者的權益問題所以包含著幾個重要的核心議題會議代表席次的比例"},{"start":223.977,"end":245.775,"text":"无障碍空间合理调整的具体措施跟申诉管道资讯无障碍等等通行无障碍还有通用设计等等我想每一项都是有关于每一位障碍者的生活起居所以还是呼吁可以尽速的排这个逐条审查你们的版本也赶快进来好那因为我要再次讲支持这个扩大自立生活它其实不仅"},{"start":246.576,"end":263.475,"text":"不僅是人權問題 人權很重要不僅是人權問題 其實它也是經濟議題因為根據110年的身心障礙者生活狀況調查這個勞動參與率的低落那身心障礙者勞動力參與率大概是22.2那遠低於全國平均的59%"},{"start":265.177,"end":282.387,"text":"那再來就是家庭照顧負擔的部分其實主要照顧者多為女性比如說配偶或母親那他們多數的年齡也介於45到64歲那他長期的照顧責任也會讓這些女性退出勞動力的市場也形成了所謂的可能一人障礙全家貧窮的惡性循環"},{"start":284.008,"end":298.797,"text":"所以我相信要提供充足的個人助理服務才釋放家庭照顧者的勞動力並且支持身心障礙者進入職場從長遠來看是有具體正向的社會投資回報率"},{"start":299.617,"end":319.858,"text":"所以我這部分要提供這些相關數據告訴部長請你們好好的回去慎重的考慮慎重的調整所以這進一步我就要講到有關於這個身心障礙者的職場的困境所以剛剛有講到包含最新這個勞動部113年辦理的身心障礙者勞動調查狀況"},{"start":321.9,"end":334.76,"text":"那113年5月的身心障礙者勞動參與率僅有21.9%那失業率高達7.1%那剛剛也有講到遠低於全體人口那更令人擔憂的是身心障礙就業者"},{"start":335.751,"end":348.074,"text":"每月的主要工作收入平均大概是3.1萬那其中低於基本工資的部分高達了32.5%那月領沒有滿4萬元的佔了45.9%所以想要請問一下這個部分要請勞動部"},{"start":356.329,"end":378.709,"text":"勞動部的代表請問一下這個針對障礙族群就業低薪問題尤其是三成收入是低於這個基本工資那5成8低於是沒有到4萬請問一下明年的工資再調整之後整體所得不到最低工資的狀況會不會更加的惡化那你們未來有沒有什麼具體的機制可以幫助他們的就業"},{"start":380.325,"end":395.357,"text":"向委員報告就是對於身心障礙的就業促進我們其實是全方面的在做服務那一般如果具有就業能力他在公立就業服務機構其實我們一年大概都可以推介三萬多人就業"},{"start":396.378,"end":422.266,"text":"但是數據看起來就是不夠好啊所以你覺得目前的數據你是滿意的嗎有努力的空間因為以目前來講 深藏的失業人數是一萬八千多人那我們會精進的因為在深藏人口裡面一百多萬其實他的勞產率就很低嘛對 因為他有一大半比例其實是65歲以上好沒關係 不過我跟你說你同一份調查報告啊"},{"start":423.326,"end":450.229,"text":"身心障礙者受雇者遭受不公平待遇者是7.9%那其中這工作配置不公平占3.7%是最多那然而調查沒有詳細的區分所謂的配置不公平是指薪資啦升遷啦還是班次的安排或工作內容等等喔其實你沒有辦法精確的掌握他所謂的差別待遇職場差別待遇的具體樣態到底是什麼那希望你們在所謂的"},{"start":451.07,"end":477.739,"text":"努力的空間就是你在調查的時候你應該要再更精確精細一點你才知道到底怎麼樣對症下藥那更關鍵的是其實多數的就業障礙者也反映工作時間或內容不適合自己是佔這個13.9%還有找不到長期穩定工作佔9.1%那這也反映出雖然名義上就業實質上卻面臨這個工作環境 班制或是工作量沒有經合理調整的困境"},{"start":478.699,"end":504.854,"text":"所以這個身心障礙者會不會是大部分是想也想要再請問一下身心障礙者會不會是因為大部分是部分工時工導致這個收入過低你們有調查這些事情嗎部分工時非典的就業人數是有的是比較高他目前以看到的比例是26%所以我想要問他們到底真的是負荷不了全時工作還是工時安排不合理"},{"start":508.683,"end":527.909,"text":"好你現在不用回答我我看你是回答不太出來因為因為我就要回過頭子就是說你的調查就是不夠詳盡本本現在看你們的調查報告的時候就不夠詳盡好所以我想要說包含的就是勞動部今年你們7月1號公布身心障礙者職場合理調整行政指導"},{"start":528.929,"end":541.863,"text":"對但是你的行政指導沒有強制性的規範那請問勞動部你們未來會考慮將合理的調整義務納入法律條文嗎或是提供說去這個並對於拒絕提供合理調整的雇主設置處罰機制嗎會嗎這個我請"},{"start":550.632,"end":577.286,"text":"請問目前對於16條如果把合理調整列入這個身權法的這個部分我們其實尊重主管機關的意見那勞動部在沒有修法之前我們已經先做了一個合理調整的行政指導就是也是體驗到說現在身障者在職場上對 但是像本席剛剛說的其實是沒有強制性的那請問部長或者是我們勞動部代表你們的態度"},{"start":578.687,"end":601.255,"text":"會有想要把這個跟委員報告就是說目前行政院的版本裡頭的草案呢是有把合理調整這個概念把它入法了這是第一個那至於說相對應的罰則的部分因為這個樣態很多而且這個概念還是一直在持續的推廣中所以在罰則的部分"},{"start":601.835,"end":629.813,"text":"是不是要透過協商機制或後續的一些行政救濟作為還是要直接就入法變成法則的部分這個怕未來在財量上會有它的難度所以你目前是不傾向這樣子去做就是直接用法則就是入法法則的部分我們是才比較保守但是把這個合理調整這個相關規定把它入法我們是支持"},{"start":630.796,"end":656.052,"text":"好那部長再來下一個問題除了就業遇到困境其實身心障礙者在退休方面也是有很大的困難那也根據你們衛福部委託的身心障礙者提前老化以及平均餘命基礎研究的報告指出對不對極重度極重度身心障礙者的老老化年齡嫌早於一般的民眾啊那勞動部的調查也是這樣身心障礙者"},{"start":656.832,"end":674.655,"text":"平均退休年齡較全體勞工提前7.9歲那反映其身心功能退化問題嚴重且普遍那現行制度是要求身心障礙者跟一般勞工都適用相同的退休年齡也導致這個身心障礙者在工作後期承受的過度負擔"},{"start":675.436,"end":700.773,"text":"那退休後也面臨所謂的經濟安全保障不足的情況所以這情況也有為社會對於這個保險保障弱勢的立法目的也沒有辦法達到身障權法的第47條的要求所以本席有提案這個極重度極重度和重度身心障礙者年滿55歲可以提前退休喔雖然不能夠針對全體的身心障礙者但至少可以"},{"start":701.675,"end":709.776,"text":"針對最需要協助的這個重度以上的身心障礙者請問兩位是否支持請問不管是我們的衛福部長或是勞動部代表"},{"start":713.366,"end":740.062,"text":"從我們的這個從健康的角度來看是可以考慮的方向因為在有一些比較所謂的過勞的這個在醫院裡面也有啦就按照他的工作勞力就是那個強度是比較高的也有一些提早退休跟一般所以簡單來講部長是覺得可以是可以支持"},{"start":740.862,"end":764.504,"text":"可以支持的嘛 對不對好 謝謝部長的回答所以本席剛剛整段的邏輯想要告訴你們的事情就是其實在於職場的部分第一個勞動部的調查應該要更加的詳盡然後第二個就是說你要怎麼樣去鼓勵職場對他們更加的友善以及要刺激他們願意我們的這個身障者願意真的投入正職的工作"},{"start":765.345,"end":794.441,"text":"所以本席也在這裡希望你們在對於這個身障的未來的這個推廣或是希望他們勞參率提高或是投入正職的部分是不是可以用更多的獎勵的方式或者是勞動部這邊是不是可以去替這些身障就業者加薪或是改聘為這個全職員工這個部分你們有沒有相關的政策工具你們回去研議提供給本席辦公室好不好好謝謝那大概兩個禮拜可不可以好那我"},{"start":795.253,"end":815.36,"text":"主席還還可以再給我一點時間嗎好我再我再講一個最後一題有關於其實我想要請教育部的代表教育部有沒有教育部今天有教育部代表嗎教育部對有嗎對有教育部代表請教育部代表許副市長"},{"start":822.318,"end":845.008,"text":"副市長我副市長我這裡有一題就是我想要請教一下現在許多家長有過度依賴用3C產品去跟這個他的學齡前的幼兒啊去讓他依賴這些用這個3C產品其實他造成了學齡前的幼兒的視力以及情緒甚至心理狀況都是有很大的影響那這種影響不會隨著年齡的增加而減少反而有越來越"},{"start":846.249,"end":867.021,"text":"依賴的嚴重趨勢喔那其實這種現象也反映在幼教以及中小學的這個教育現場所以有時候小朋友可能單只是單純的情緒障礙或是有其他生理或心理的因素造成學習上的不專注但是他們可能會被誤以為是過動或ADHD或者是ASD或是妥瑞氏症等等喔"},{"start":867.681,"end":886.876,"text":"這情況是有機會透過這個督促行為改變或者是教學達到改善但這就必須透過家長跟老師的配合請教司長你看過這份關懷過動寶貝父母自助檢查表嗎報告委員我是第一次看到"},{"start":887.227,"end":911.396,"text":"你是第一次看到是不是好這份檢查表雖然不是一份正式的量表但是在教育現場有許多的老師和家長使用那聽說他的成效還不錯所以想要請教副市長會不會考慮將這份檢查表擴大使用或者是請一些學者專家將這份檢查表透過科學的方式來發展為本土的檢查量表這樣子的好處是避免"},{"start":912.116,"end":937.71,"text":"家長或教師因為不了解而直接將小朋友過早的就是介入醫療介入這樣子的就是因為聯合國的這個兒童權益權利委員會其實在多次的結論性的意見中也表明其實有許多國家都過度診斷ADHD和自閉症就會對於這些兒童有過早和過量的使用精神科藥物"},{"start":939.321,"end":967.833,"text":"所以我的意思是這個 請問你可不可以回去評估一下可以 謝謝委員的提供那這部分我們回去會找一些學者專家還有現場的實務老師來進一步做一些討論然後進一步研究這個你們要趕快喔 我覺得這是一個嚴重的問題喔因為你過度治療的時候你會影響到整個兒童的就是他未來的狀況都會有很嚴重的影響所以我看這個部長也在旁邊頻頻點頭我現在想這個部長的部分是不是也可以協助一下教育部這個部分"},{"start":968.513,"end":989.433,"text":"會不會從醫學的觀點來提供協助對因為所以所以我想要講的進一步的再提醒我現在沒有辦法把這題問完因為我當然我知道時間有超過包含著這個就會接續到像現在北榮有這個向日葵學院很多時候你們兩個部會會推來推去包含衛福部跟教育部"},{"start":989.873,"end":1014.437,"text":"像Ruquit學員就是希望在很多的比較嚴重的這種精神障礙的狀況之下的小朋友他可以邊接受治療邊上學因為現在很多時候你停止上學你讓他去接受治療最後他再回去的時候他沒有辦法融入那個學習生活然後最後又再一個反向循環又要再回來出來治療所以這部分導致的原因就是對於教育部來講那是衛福部的事對於衛福部來講那是教育部的事情"},{"start":1015.56,"end":1034.591,"text":"你們是不是應該要有一個專案小組去合併起來去研究這件事情怎麼推廣到台灣其他地方因為這個是有他必要性以及真的比較重度的需求的時候應該要有這個狀況可不可以請部長答應跟委員報告我也請我們心理健康師對於這一些"},{"start":1035.631,"end":1059.805,"text":"治療時間特別是在醫院裡面治療時間比較長的需要比較長的這些孩子來盤點一下看看怎麼樣讓他在這個比較長的這個治療時間當中不至於這個在學習上面產生斷層這個我們來好謝謝部長承諾本席那請問多久可以給本席一個大概的這個或是一個報告和研議的方向陳市長"},{"start":1063.167,"end":1069.012,"text":"三個月一個月好不好一個月一個月好好謝謝謝謝趙偉好謝謝好謝謝請回接下來請圖全體委員"}]}},{"id":"166297","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166297","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0b16841c6ac31c94cff56a78bd28eb12219f30473e88220b30fb57351b41a9d0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:05:10 - 11:13:37","影片長度":"00:08:27","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T11:05:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T11:13:37+08:00","duration":507,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":1.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.5578437500000004,"end":4.6040937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.11034375,"end":5.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.886593750000001,"end":6.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.287218750000001,"end":8.704718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.21096875,"end":9.227843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.227843750000002,"end":9.970343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.970343750000001,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.814093750000001,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.965968750000002,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.98284375,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.03346875,"end":11.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.05034375,"end":11.067218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.067218750000002,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.084093750000001,"end":11.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.10096875,"end":11.168468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.30346875,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.41221875,"end":31.266593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.33409375,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.93659375,"end":66.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.34971875000001,"end":68.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.04971875000001,"end":78.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.12409375,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.48159375,"end":94.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.95284375,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.54221875,"end":117.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.78471875000001,"end":128.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.97284375,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.88721875000002,"end":139.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.21159375000002,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.33909375000002,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.59471875,"end":173.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.75909375,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.28471875000002,"end":198.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.91534375,"end":200.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.86034375000003,"end":211.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.61909375000002,"end":206.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.32346875000002,"end":207.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.73659375000003,"end":209.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.75346875000002,"end":209.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.82096875000002,"end":210.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.75721875000002,"end":240.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.06409375,"end":220.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.13159375,"end":220.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.31721875000002,"end":220.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.05971875,"end":221.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.72346875000002,"end":245.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.47784375,"end":245.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.20346875,"end":256.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.79659375,"end":258.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.75846875,"end":261.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.21784375000004,"end":323.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.23034375000003,"end":264.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.54159375,"end":378.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.24596875000003,"end":394.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.99034375,"end":405.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.02659375,"end":416.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.79284375000003,"end":442.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.84784375000004,"end":471.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.92346875000004,"end":480.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.47534375000004,"end":489.43971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.87846875,"end":497.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.24471875,"end":497.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.30346875000004,"end":500.79659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.7628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各位請回座 開會了喔好 這是有請部長來 請部長"},{"start":17.815,"end":35.993,"text":"盧委員好部長好通常我們在面對我們原住民身障者的時候我們先看一下他的背景目前我們原住民身障人數大概2萬多人大概中度以上大概上來60%也就是大概1萬2千多人不過在我們常常會面臨到一些問題比如說你在申請資源的時候他會"},{"start":37.655,"end":60.714,"text":"認為說你是原住民所以常常原住民跟生長者的身份他就只能選擇一個有的時候這個窗口可能要想一下如何來整合第二個就是說我們常常在立法的時候比較沒有原名的概念所以比較會就沒有所謂文化敏感度 視切性這些所以可能往後這些我們在立法的時候可能都要"},{"start":61.835,"end":77.303,"text":"去面面俱到然後現在我們看到這些我們的深藏的鑑定它心智裡面我們所謂的第一碼第一碼也就是說它的活動參與跟環境因素可能沒有辦法去來"},{"start":79.644,"end":102.803,"text":"正确的去反映它实际的状况所以我们这个部分在评估的时候可能这个还是要我们立法者或者说我们行政部门来替我们身上者来想我们在原住民地区还有看到一些就是偏乡啊贫穷啊还有歧视这些交织而成的一些真实的障碍然后我们有些我们科幻印象应该也要偏偏"},{"start":103.644,"end":127.69,"text":"去刪除那所以我們來盤點一下現在各個行政我們的縣市有真正有公部門來經營的其實寥寥可數只有我們原住民地區的地方只有苗栗縣有那公辦民營的部分在桃園有一間然後苗栗一間然後屏東四間所以我們有原住民地區居住的縣市你看這些"},{"start":129.13,"end":155.836,"text":"公部門或者是公辦民營的幾乎是寥寥可數所以我們原住民要居住一些機構性的話其實是雪上加霜所以然後加上我們的環境的障礙你購買輔具的時候其實很多都不適合我們在偏鄉的一個實際的居住所以可能這個部分也是要去努力然後我們的資源真空就是說我們交通不便常常沒有辦法去真正享受到政府的美意"},{"start":156.556,"end":170.722,"text":"然後我們的姥姥照顧像我們是長者在照顧長者然後未成年的子女在照顧長者這樣一個狀況然後我們剛剛就說了我們盤點以後幾乎沒有看到我們園鄉有很完整的一個長照"},{"start":173.844,"end":198.083,"text":"全日起的一個機構那我們現在盤點一下我們現在面臨的困境像我們之前我有提過說是不是能夠真正的有一個住宿型的長照機構那我想說請部長看看你現在的你們的辦理進度如何因為你們之前有說要由長照社區共生互助計劃事辦計劃的研擬我想聽看看你們的目前的規劃"},{"start":201.63,"end":211.329,"text":"委員指教的是有關於在原住民族地區的住宿型長照機構對 沒錯好 那個是不是我們請那個我們長照施助市長來說明一下"},{"start":213.308,"end":224.055,"text":"跟委員報告那目前在平原的部分目前是有的可是山原的部分確實現在是沒有那我們現階段有在推所謂的這個加拖全日行的那目前是用一個衛生所那試著改建之後讓他可以這個提供24小時的服務那現在也在花蓮現在也還沒現在還在準備當中我是希望能夠進度能夠快一點然後"},{"start":242.426,"end":256.529,"text":"因為我們目前還是停留在事半的階段接下來我們在修法的核心部分就叫我們部長先讓CRPD這個部分我想知道部長你知道P是什麼意思嗎"},{"start":259.991,"end":263.734,"text":"P是什么意思P就是Personal"},{"start":287.91,"end":308.582,"text":"把他们的这些修法能够周全所以我们就有一些合理调整的一些想法就是针对我们原住民地区我们希望的评估工具服务输送的方式跟交通的配套来这边做合理调整所有的调整的方法合理调整这个修法有大概有六条第六第七二十一五十三六十一七十一号"},{"start":309.102,"end":337.297,"text":"有些程序上的比如说你要有文化敏感度比如说你的标准上面你是不是有文化背景地理特殊性这些然后我们的服务的输送是不是你有去解决我们身上的交通不便所导致的这些就医困难所以我们这边也有提到我们环境跟财务调整比如说我们的交通的优先预约或者是费用补贴这个部分第六十一条就是沟通有的时候是不是要经历手语或是同步听打的这些试剧"},{"start":338.017,"end":359.711,"text":"視訊遠距服務然後最後一個71號就是希望有財務跟物流的調整希望這些府居的這些維修或者是載送或者是就是以後他有損壞的時候有那些定期倒載的去維修的這樣那個服務然後在自主選擇部分我大概有提了四條那自主選擇當然我們就希望"},{"start":360.231,"end":378.568,"text":"一直在在而上在講原鄉住宿住宿型的長照機構也就是CRPD的第十九條所謂的去機構教養化他希望能夠充分融入社會所以我們的自主選擇裡面我們我提了四個修法也就是第十條第五十條第六十三條跟七十四條"},{"start":379.409,"end":393.862,"text":"希望在决策参与跟在地化自主支持跟居住选择弹性以及人格尊严跟文化尊重这方面来达到一些我们的修法的一些概念所以我最后再提一个问题就是说"},{"start":395.384,"end":415.826,"text":"請衛福部能夠承諾在三個月內可以向本席提交詳盡的原鄉地區住宿性長照服務及身心障礙者在地支持評估報告我希望有五個內容就是文化實現性跟服務的模式第二個就是財政跟資源的穩定性第三個就是緩解家庭的經濟負擔"},{"start":417.027,"end":441.114,"text":"第四个是人才培育跟留任的策略第五个就是自主选择跟非机构化的路径我们一直希望能够原住民乡能够有住宿型长照机构我们的原则其实就是CRPD八大原则里面的第三项也就是充分的融入社会所以我们一而再再而三的希望说部长能够把这些我讲的重点"},{"start":441.614,"end":465.789,"text":"能夠銘記在心因為我們原鄉確實需要政府特別的資源跟經費來投入我們才可以真正照顧我們現在所看到的百分之三十兩萬多人裡面百分之三十的重度然後重重度以上是百分之六十也就是一萬兩千多人所以這些山區在全國各地的一些偏遠地區希望"},{"start":466.569,"end":488.886,"text":"部長能夠心心念念對我們原住民身心障礙者在你的心目中好不好謝謝委員因為還沒有看到這個委員的版本我們再向您請教最後的時間20秒左右我再問你說新竹發生老師跟學生在19天之內雙雙墜樓的這個事件請問部長你有掌握嗎"},{"start":490.35,"end":506.169,"text":"這個送醫的部分我有大概了解他馬上就到我說這兩個案子有關聯性嗎那但是這個關聯性的部分我要再進一步了解好那希望部長能夠關心好謝謝好謝謝謝謝陸委謝謝部長請回"}]}},{"id":"166296","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166296","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c001a0663b60fc48bd9ecb9f93c172c55119f30473e88220b389e2bfcd57ebc68f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:13:28 - 11:22:59","影片長度":"00:09:31","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「財政收支劃分法」7案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員郭國文等17人、委員賴瑞隆等19人、委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n(二)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等26人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例」2案：（僅詢答）\n(一)本院委員郭國文等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n 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謝謝財政部要麻煩你們再幫我們多介紹一些看有沒有人願意到金門做一些重大的這個"},{"start":212.165,"end":237.054,"text":"公共建設投資那是不是也提供一些誘因政策上誘因比如說在租稅上要有一些優惠不然的話尤其長照的部分這在金門來講金門老齡化高齡化很嚴重那如果說又是偏遠離島如果在政策上沒有多給一點優惠的話一點誘因不管是租稅不管是租稅方面土地方面各方面的誘因的話是比較少的人願意到金門去做相關大的這個公共"},{"start":237.694,"end":256.739,"text":"建設啦尤其是長照的部分這個財政部是不是可以幫我們研擬一些相關的這個優惠方案道理導序比較辛苦嗎不管是興建或者什麼各方面都比較辛苦啊報告委員國有財產為了配合國家推動長照政策我們有推了一個叫做指定設定地上指定產業設定地上權"},{"start":259.74,"end":274.973,"text":"如果金門有人願意去投資我們如果有適當的土地他是可以有比較低的潛力金的計費的收費方式是有這樣的一個機制不過長照大家也都知道"},{"start":276.314,"end":295.704,"text":"他的獲利性比較低所以在租稅方面財政部這邊最主要是門檻因為現在規定是要財團法人醫療機構式的財團法人不是一般的公司行號可以受制的這個租稅方面財政部是不是可以提供一些租稅上的誘因"},{"start":297.275,"end":309.271,"text":"主要是重大公共建設範圍的話那在租稅上他就是有優惠的那另外衛福部對於長照也有相關的補助那另外在所得稅的部分扣除我也可以已經從12萬調到18萬這是剛通過的"},{"start":313.135,"end":341.314,"text":"但是我覺得還是同樣的條件如果條件跟本島一樣沒有人要去離島啦那也知道嘛 這個獲利比較差離島的成本比較高 人員比較不好取得嘛那這個問題 請部長是不是責成這個相關的包括租稅方面 土地方面 出產市方面幫我們想一些方法好嗎在法律運行方面 多想一些優因讓相關的單位願意到金門去做相關的投資啊不然一樣條件大家都要留在台灣做啊 對不對"},{"start":342.515,"end":350.027,"text":"這個是不是請這個部長多幫忙是 謝謝那多久內可以幫我想出一些你們的這個因為畢竟公務部門人才幾級嘛"},{"start":351.236,"end":371.732,"text":"對 那我想我們在初餐這個地方我們會把相關的一些優惠把它羅列出來那鼓勵民間去那邊做投資這是優惠羅列出來我要想的是更進一步的比本島還要更優惠一點的誘因啦這個恐怕要結合衛福部好 那在你想一下 我跟你現在12月可不可以再過年前給我啊"},{"start":373.088,"end":391.28,"text":"給我們三個月時間可以嗎 三個月好麻煩您了 謝謝還有部長這個以前我們金門這個小山東碼頭是一個小的碼頭就相對那個航扇大樓比較小現在我們已經蓋了一棟新的大樓預計在一月底開始啟用那原來在疫情前"},{"start":392.04,"end":406.177,"text":"我們政府的這個台銀跟土銀都在原來的水頭碼頭的這個小三通港口那個口岸都有設櫃辦理人民幣的兌換服務那疫情過後就沒有了就是就已經沒有銀行在水頭碼頭做這個設櫃的辦理這個兌換的服務那"},{"start":410.282,"end":436.431,"text":"我們新的這個大樓在1月底大概明年的1月中1月底會開始落成啟用那大陸客現在因為有開放到金門觀光所以觀光客每天也是最多有到一天來到7000人嘛那很多金門的鄉親或是小山東經過金門的這個台灣鄉親也會從這裡過去那事實上有很也是有一定的換匯需求那台銀土銀這個部門是不是準備要入住到新的這個旅客服務中心提供換匯的服務"},{"start":437.936,"end":452.731,"text":"是不是惠厚容我们由国库署在跟那个土营跟台营了解好不好我跟您说一下事实上我已经有了解了就是说好像我们现在金门的土营跟台营土营最近刚刚合并了土营跟台营对去设这个好像意愿缺缺因为稍微"},{"start":453.852,"end":472.762,"text":"稍微因為碼頭比較遠一點 可能要輪流去上班在地的那種距離感的話很多人可能不願意 但這個可能還是需要財政部的大力的支持由上而下 因為民眾的確有這個需求啦然後另外在這個這個桃園機場的部分 你看喔台灣銀行現在在桃園機場有六台的這個"},{"start":473.863,"end":480.747,"text":"台外幣現鈔的兌換機這是一個新型的換匯如果說這是一個新型的換匯的機制如果說真的是因為人員調度困難或是不願意的話是不是也比照這個桃園機場在桃園機場也是有設這種新型的換匯機因為金門也算是一個很平凡的國門"},{"start":498.836,"end":521.415,"text":"經過的人也很多啦 每天也大概六七千人啊節假日的時候 甚至來回都有一萬多人啊那事實上這個需求是有的嘛那我們也讓合法的管道可以暢通嘛所以像你看這種新型的這個外幣的兌換的這個機器可以在金門裝幾台啊那週休日 銀行沒有營業的時候也可以換匯啊這個應該算是很容易的事情嘛"},{"start":522.745,"end":549.826,"text":"這部分我們會後再跟台銀再來評估一下我們再請他們來評估一下好不好不用評估 兩台機器在國門總是小事一樁嘛第一個就是說最好是平常就有人然後機器如果有的話如果裝的夠多老百姓可以正常的換會的話真的沒有人也還算是還可以 您懂我意思嗎那最好是當然一定要有人那所以你這個最好兩樣都有啦"},{"start":552.468,"end":560.134,"text":"委員的訴求我們一定會去表達這個是有需求民眾有需求盡快跟我回答好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝委員好謝謝陳玉珍委員我們現在休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"166295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c02eb4caad937dc9bda68b3568d601d3dc19f30473e88220b3d71fa32a71faafad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:08:38 - 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謝謝主席 我請我們沈記長請沈記長"},{"start":15.919,"end":41.373,"text":"委員好好 沈議長好就是這一次要偵涉我們的政務副審計長那當然因為過去大家都覺得我們的審計部針對行政院各項決算那基本上都有做到獨立的公正性那每一次審計部的報告也受到包含立法院的委員還有外界的一個重視那大家比較擔心的是說"},{"start":43.835,"end":69.889,"text":"這個政務副審計長他會變成一個酬庸性政治性的任命不過因為我現在我剛才也也幫忙連署就是我們翁曉琳委員有特別提到就是加注就是我們政務副審計長他仍然給他給予他一個他必須具有一定專業的資格那因為就是有關於翁曉琳委員所提供的那個版本您個人也同意嗎"},{"start":70.852,"end":78.961,"text":"對 因為大家美國委員都對我的有政務委員以後對我們損盡獨立性會產生阻擾那產生阻擾對信任就產生那個所以增加不必要的這個"},{"start":85.768,"end":91.511,"text":"強化政務副審計長的我們都接受的資格只要強化他的獨立還有專業他的獨立跟專業性能夠確保他不是空降或者是酬庸或者來當監軍的所以基本上那就是翁曉琳委員那個修正動議因為我剛才也連署那基本上我們對於偵涉政務副審計長我們就會給予支持"},{"start":113.982,"end":130.434,"text":"只要我們可以秉出我們剛才所說的疑慮另外有一個很重要的議題要就教於沈記長就是我們現在不管是明年度的總預算或者行政院送到立法院來的1.25兆的有關於國防的特別預算受到高度的重視"},{"start":138.039,"end":144.985,"text":"但是事實上就是我們有關於軍事支出的特別預算這也不是第一次那我們來看這個部分是其實大家討論的非常多的就是以我們從109年開始實施的新式戰機採購的特別預算的說出執行情形"},{"start":160.316,"end":168.498,"text":"我們可以看到在今年的9月30號為止我們已經實現的預算數已經高達84.2%已經實現的預算數84.2%但是呢它的問題就是到目前為止預算數執行率高達84%"},{"start":184.483,"end":201.134,"text":"但是呢一架戰機都看不到就是F16VR照理說他今年就已經開始陸陸續續交建到明年底應該全數交建完畢這個是一直外界大家很關切的好所以像這樣的狀況就是我想在我們審計部去做這個決算的"},{"start":209.3,"end":226.774,"text":"檢查的時候 審查的時候一定會對像類似這樣的預算執行你執行就是錢出去貨不來錢出去貨不來這個你們一定會提出相關的特別提醒或糾正我們再來看"},{"start":229.212,"end":252.48,"text":"就是我們在這一次1.25兆裡面的國防預算也就是所謂強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫的特別預算其中有一個非常重要的項目就是有關於無人載具及反制系統就是無人機 可能無人艇"},{"start":253.953,"end":277.429,"text":"可是問題是在我們公務預算國防部的公務預算裡面其實過去從很多年度113年度114年度通通都有無人機的採購計畫在公務預算裡面就有但是呢它的問題所呈現的你可以看到我框出來的以今年度來講"},{"start":278.922,"end":304.224,"text":"無人機反制防禦系統的預算執行情況支用率極低不是極低而已是極極極低我為什麼在講呢有的呢只有1%都不到很多1%不到就代表根本沒有執行根本沒有執行也就是雖然編列了大筆的預算在無人機的採購"},{"start":305.345,"end":306.527,"text":"可是呢 它執行率極低 以114年度也只有遙控無人機防禦系統啊 致用率達到10% 這已經是最高"},{"start":317.25,"end":340.589,"text":"百分之十是最高其他的我剛才講非常非常低好 所以這樣的狀況不是我們今天錢已經花出去但是貨戰機根本不到或者這個無人機我們編列大筆預算過去公務預算已經編列大筆預算但是他沒有辦法執行為什麼沒有辦法執行就是他都驗都不過啦好 都沒有辦法沒有辦法通過"},{"start":342.01,"end":360.305,"text":"所以他就不敢支用那支用率這麼低然後現在還要去編列1.25兆所以這就是我們今天要針對這些預算今天不是一個單純的說你一定要支持你不支持你就是不支持台灣的國防"},{"start":362.286,"end":381.087,"text":"這樣的一個簡化的我覺得這並不是我們去審查預算或者監督預算的一個基本態度我再來看後面過去在我們很多都是討論說我們的特別預算編列太多特別預算有特別預算真的很特別嗎"},{"start":382.128,"end":402.86,"text":"可是你現在看喔光是國防特別預算從蔡英文政府到賴清德政府到目前為止我們光是國防特別預算已經這個已編列前面是已經被通過的嘛後面1.25兆是現在送進來已經高達1.8兆已經高達1.8兆之多所以"},{"start":411.707,"end":439.565,"text":"沈機長我要問你的事情是當我們現在不管是公務預算也好或特別預算也好當國防預算這麼這麼的龐大的時候是不是應該去有一個專門的監督機制甚至監督機構因為過去對於特別預算很多的財政學者說什麼叫特別預算呢特別預算就是特別好"},{"start":440.635,"end":468.327,"text":"什麼特別好呢 特別好過像這個預算 你敢看立刻說你是不支持國防立刻說你是中共同路人還有一個特別好用這個特別預算一邊好幾千億過去我們前瞻也看到有多少浪費而造成了文子館然後根本沒有效益的事情他讓行政單位非常好用另外一個特別好混"},{"start":469.748,"end":488.804,"text":"很好混啊 而且因為他這好幾年啊好幾年你還看不到能不能執行他的預算啪 已經匡列在那裡好 所以我們針對特別預算如此腐爛好 如此對行政單位如此好用如此好混 而我們國防預算如此之高所以"},{"start":489.565,"end":511.129,"text":"沈記長就您的一個特別的專業來講我們現在正面對不管是公務預算國防金 明年的國防預算就佔了總預算的三分之一然後又有1.25兆的國防特別預算在那裡我們是不是應該先研議一個就是應該成立一個專門的機構監督的機構或者是"},{"start":515.37,"end":529.758,"text":"或者是我們要有一個特別的監督機制不然的話我們悶著頭通過這麼多的預算就會形成我剛才所講的預算執行的率很高但是看不到東西來"},{"start":530.678,"end":546.636,"text":"因為現在持續率很高錢花的很多看不到東西不然就是錢變得很多但是我花不出去錢變很多但是對不起我就是花不出去因為我想可能有些你明明是已經不合格的或者檢驗沒有辦法通過的我也不敢採購啊所以"},{"start":550.802,"end":566.725,"text":"沈機長您覺得我在講針對國防預算應該有一個專門監督機制或者一個專門監督機構或一個專門監督小組您個人的看法怎樣好 謝謝委員如果委員相信我我們會回去"},{"start":567.699,"end":585.069,"text":"成立這個那個查核小組國防預算 國防預算小組你就不用再那個我如果相信我選舉部所以你選舉部有這個能力我有這個能力有這個能力 因為我知道你們有很多專案調查第二個剛剛講F16那個我們"},{"start":591.092,"end":614.267,"text":"為什麼80%戰機還沒來 它是經過 都在美國做它在住工程 像我們蓋一個樓房 蓋到幾層我們的會計上就可以賺帳 所以那是賺帳的但是還沒有蓋好 沒有賺帳的 我們剃掉它讓它沒實現 它沒有蓋的 我們剃掉它三四百億"},{"start":616.028,"end":629.722,"text":"還有他送了太多錢去美國我們說你要停下來他慢了這個我們得扣掉國防部也照我們的意思你扣了多少錢370幾億"},{"start":632.845,"end":642.754,"text":"所以就是你說因為那個貨都沒有進來所以你不要再匯錢了因為進度慢了但是他有在做最近聽到的消息大概明年就有戰機進來明年才進來"},{"start":649.079,"end":655.221,"text":"但是國防部都不確定明年可以全數到貨油因為這個國際的變化多所以第一個 省紀長你的意思說你們省紀部已經有針對F16V的新式戰機的採購你們已經有專案小組在做有在做追蹤 在做審查"},{"start":670.205,"end":697.186,"text":"那未來我剛剛講的不管我們公務預算或特別預算金額這麼龐大你們也會成立專案小組來針對國防預算來這樣子每一個案子來做監督比如說你無人機採購這麼多你就要去監督他如果這個大案給他通過順利通過我們會來負責做方面的審計再來我給你一個概念"},{"start":698.327,"end":712.338,"text":"如果特別預算有一個好處他都把這些事情集在一起他如果散在總預算大家不一定錢冒看不出來所以特別預算有他特別預算的優點"},{"start":713.639,"end":736.148,"text":"所以這個給委員做這樣的一個補充因為大家對特別預算我覺得你在這邊已經有點在幫他們講話特別預算特別預算特別好用啦對於行政單位當然啦但是特別預算的腐爛特別預算的腐爛事實上會對財政造成極大的負擔特別預算的裁員是哪來的"},{"start":737.568,"end":741.571,"text":"大部分都舉債啦 都是舉債嘛所以當我們那麼高的特別預算那就代表我們要舉債這麼多對不對國家的財政慢慢都在好轉我們是希望像每年都能夠超收來補充這些今年沒有超收喔 我都有在追耶今天很奇怪喔 經濟成長率15年來的新高 但是竟然"},{"start":762.805,"end":772.383,"text":"沒有超收預算他把稅數加大了這是另外一個問題經濟成長並沒有在稅收裡面完全的顯現謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166294","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166294","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c07f0f706cbabafc96ed0cecc406237e9619f30473e88220b358fff7e47292a95a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:06:43 - 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蛮悲哀的像刚刚所讲的"},{"start":198.071,"end":212.227,"text":"這麼高的淘汰率就任何有文化聲望的人被糾纏一下他覺得好像反而就是身上還中了好幾刀而且也沒有辦法得到這個位置可是我們看就是哇"},{"start":212.868,"end":237.267,"text":"居然应该这个不知道是谁居然提出就是说现在是文化部或是民进党政府装死摆烂耍无赖那严任的规定就没有意义了还已经提出修法如果公事董监是因为文化部没有提出名单无法在满聘前成立则不得严任那个部长你怎么看这个修法"},{"start":238.126,"end":259.198,"text":"其实我觉得公共电视快要30年了最近的修法是最棒的一次比如说降到三分之二对对对那三个条件太棒了就是天花板拿掉9亿第二个审查的时候三分之二而不用到四分之三还要把人数又降回到原来的人数你知道吗"},{"start":259.838,"end":274.456,"text":"在這20幾年的過程中為了要換掉總經理跟董事長在立法院把董事人數增加到20幾個其實我們不忍心回頭看那個過程是如何虐待一個公共媒體的"},{"start":275.177,"end":300.171,"text":"这个是我实在不愿意讲然后现在终于把它回到一个原点回到一个比较正常的方式那你说我刚刚一直在解释回到原点应该是我的责任赶快拿出名单对吗我没有理由不拿出来而且我中间非常希望赶快拿出来不然我不会在去年11月我们就启动而且有公文来证明我去年11月就开始做可是这个过程真的是很难产"},{"start":300.831,"end":323.774,"text":"然後一再跟大家講大家都不相信你說找15個人很容易啊當然很容易我講完之後我就收到很多推薦啊我收到很多人推薦說我可以當然可以可是我多麼希望我把名單拿出來之後這次的審議委員一次就通過否則我又開始我又開始輪迴到像過去一樣的那個拖時間"},{"start":325.75,"end":344.367,"text":"我想今天也是透过这个质询也是呼吁千万不要这样因为这个责任就像刚刚部长讲的它可能是个历史共业因为不管是谁当政都发生过使得今天人非常的早而不是赖给文化部"},{"start":344.867,"end":363.48,"text":"所以如果要休掉延任的話現在延任只是救急不能夠像憲法法庭一樣被癱瘓我覺得那才是更可怕的也看一下數字因為剛剛有人都只看第七屆我們看一下第五屆第五屆也接近一千天那個時候是馬政府"},{"start":363.84,"end":391.778,"text":"在執政的時候所以如果這個不管是審查或者找人的過程中就是慢下來那如果延任就是護航的話那馬政府不就等於護航三年了所以我想請大家要有歷史感那時間有限我也是要提醒一下過去很多專業被踐踏歷史教授台大歷史系的教授就因為研究過228就被指控撕裂族群"},{"start":392.959,"end":409.144,"text":"反對擔任這還是一個好像跟如果要說二二八的研究有政治的話那我們看到謝明佑因為唱本土歌曲很多人喜歡也被否決柯玉芬我找不到他任何有政治色彩的記錄被否決"},{"start":410.164,"end":433.76,"text":"賀兆提是性別就是議事的一個紀錄片知名導演也被否決郭立新這個應該也沒有任何的跟民進黨政府關係的證據都被否決我想這些文化人都被否決的話我想沒有人敢再隨便答應部長的邀約所以我也呼籲一下"},{"start":434.56,"end":457.806,"text":"公事董監事遴選是大家的事情未來審查的時候就像部長講的希望能夠一次順利那部長千辛萬苦找到的我們相信就是專業的把國家跟文化的願景放在心上的而不是考慮任何一個政黨之私那我希望審查委員也可以尊重專業好那最後呢"},{"start":458.866,"end":485.708,"text":"要追一下一个我之前问的议题不知道部长记不记得六月的时候我有要求文化部在文化工作契约里面要加强规范杜绝文化工作中的性暴力那我也要先肯定文化部过去做了非常多的工作修改就是给奖很多的部分那我后来发现就漏了一个就是有些时候跟奖项无关是跟"},{"start":486.388,"end":509.882,"text":"一些承攬或是得到文化部的補助的一些劇團它內部的工作規範我不知道部長怎麼看因為文化部給我的回覆似乎是沒有辦法處理因為他們到底能不能夠主張損害賠償譬如說一個團員在表演的過程中那是文化部的補助"},{"start":510.222,"end":535.425,"text":"中间发生MeToo事件是加害人那现在看起来都只能够由负责人自行决定是不是跟各成员签订这契约我觉得消极了些当然一个团体他跟成员之间的约那比较是他们各自的规范到底是沉烂牢固甚至适用哪一个法律是青年工作平等法什么都不一定"},{"start":536.405,"end":555.436,"text":"但是我們去查了一下國際經驗我認為你的這個文化藝術工作者承攬及委任契約的指導原則既然是指導原則部長是不是評估一下原本裡面指導原則就有勞動基準法那也納入性別平等工作法等"},{"start":556.136,"end":585.168,"text":"相关劳动与性别平等法令可不可以考虑一下既然是指导原则那我给部长一个例子因为时间到了我们办公室去查一下因为我们想总不能凭空就叫文化部做一个这样的事英国的艺术政策委员会叫做Art 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次長好因為本席這次針對這個國安基金有提案不過在問這個之前我先問一下我們普發現金到現在從11月12號開始到現在已經將近一個月了不曉得現在普發現金的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":29.397,"end":39.969,"text":"五發現金現在非常的順利那目前已經有超過2000萬的人已經領了超過2000萬喔對 已經超過2000萬的民眾已經領了大概我們昨天算到大概超過85%的民眾已經領了因為我們這裡面有那領的方式咧"},{"start":49.159,"end":66.356,"text":"領的方式裡面第一個透過網路登記入帳的有42.55%是最高那其次就是ATM領的就是24.16%比例是這麼高那另外我們有直接入帳也就是它有"},{"start":66.676,"end":85.912,"text":"固定领政府津贴的部分有22.75%就是说他不需要去做任何事我们就直接划入了他的账号大概有458万那到邮局领县的是10.28%是207万的民众已经领了所以总共已经超过2000万的民众已经领了大概数字多少2000万多少"},{"start":88.074,"end":98.682,"text":"2000萬你說實際的數字是多少2012萬我們算到昨天下午是2012萬那佔預估的人口我們預估是2356萬4696人大概佔了85%以上的人所以一個月就是大概有85%的人有領到這1萬塊了一個月了因為我記得是11月12號到現在將近一個月了"},{"start":115.764,"end":118.74,"text":"那速度還滿快的目前執行起來有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":120.22,"end":145.269,"text":"最近起來沒有什麼大問題那我就來問這個國安基金那這個國安基金本席的提案就是說本來現在是五千億那實際上就是銀行是兩千億四大基金是三千億那所以呢我們提案是增加這個到一兆其中是把這個銀行借款的部分從兩千億增加到七千億就增加五千億那我們四大基金的地方我們就不去動不去處理了"},{"start":146.489,"end":171.209,"text":"主要就是說一些客觀數字來看剛剛其實次長部長也都有提到說我們現在的上市櫃公司的市值已經97兆了跟89年成立的時候那時候是才9.2兆已經成長了10.5倍而且我們的外資也不斷的持股的比例也不斷的增加然後就算從今年的4月9號"},{"start":174.291,"end":200.247,"text":"國安基金進場後盤到現在11月底外資累計賣超達到3940億其實已經遠超過我們這個國安基金的2000億了那所以這個雖然現在只有我原版就是我跟郭國文委員的版本那我再問一下這個次長這個您是執行秘書那對於這個國安基金增加從這個5000億增加到1兆那我們這個"},{"start":203.549,"end":221.474,"text":"市長您的看法我剛才有報告過這一個案子雖然行政院沒有提版本但是由委員還有另外郭委員來提的但是這一次行政院有表達非常清楚的立場"},{"start":223.055,"end":249.674,"text":"針對這個案子我們基本上是贊成的贊成 你們立場就是贊成嘛好 支持好 那所以其實提案這個理由這個客觀數據都寫得很清楚那絕對不是這個聞言聳聽說什麼兩岸戰爭了所以我們才要把這一個國安基金把它的這個金額可以提高因為其實 因為剛剛委員有在問就是說你有兩千億夠用啊但是你是省著用"},{"start":250.987,"end":255.37,"text":"因為你有兩千億而已嘛是 你只有兩千億所以委員謝謝你讓我有機會說明我們因為在操作的時候因為我們是考慮到那個上限所以我們都會省著用我看你都很省著用啊你等於是用很少的這些錢來做點火嘛 對不對對對 點火"},{"start":269.538,"end":289.976,"text":"因為不知道後面還有沒有更大的攻盤的現象所以我們在用的時候前面通膽都會比較省但是這樣做法就會影響到我們護盤的功能一定會影響到功能所以說現在把你的上限提高其實就是讓你的子彈增加因為未來會面臨到什麼樣的情況其實不知道"},{"start":290.856,"end":306.308,"text":"但是至少讓國人知道說我們國安基金有增加了表示說是政府對於這個股市是非常重視的因為股市會影響到所謂的經濟和一般的民心所以我是認為應該是增加到一兆這個妥當"},{"start":310.871,"end":327.948,"text":"那財政部包含執行秘書 市長你也認為說現在行政院的態度就是表示支持就對了是另外我跟委員包括剛才委員提到一個很重要的問題有些委員有說我們這次提的時候是不是有特殊的實際考量"},{"start":329.269,"end":353.792,"text":"那我是覺得一碼歸一碼就沒有 因為不是願板 是我委員提的就是兩件事情跟這個所謂的明年的所謂的什麼特別預算其實是完全是兩件事情我覺得沒有啦 因為其實很單純如果今天是有願板那願板就是你提出來你可能你有考量那現在很單純就是我跟郭國維兩個的版本那我當招委我就這時候排出來"},{"start":354.873,"end":369.637,"text":"沒有什麼樣的一個動機也不是說什麼這個兩岸有什麼樣的問題沒有 我們是希望說讓政府的子彈多一點讓投資人多一些信心就這樣而已不過我再請教一下啦我們現在的這一個這一次的護盤的時間是從4月9號開始"},{"start":373.257,"end":391.736,"text":"到現在11月了嘛 對不對還在 國外經濟還在所以還在的主要理由是不是因為關稅都還沒有確定對 因為當時進場的時候就是在剛好台美對等關稅對等關稅宣布以後那時候就是我們不是大跌了2000多點嘛"},{"start":392.577,"end":397.022,"text":"然後第二天也是一樣大跌嘛所以那時候經過委員會議決議就要進場因為這個當時進場的原因還沒有消失因為台美的關稅的談判還沒有簽協議所以我們不知道結果到底怎麼樣"},{"start":410.535,"end":437.384,"text":"那外界的反應會怎麼樣如果反應如果是很大家非常的可以接受的話我們會建議就是國安基金管理委員會會開會那麼來檢討退場的事宜好那請問一下那我們是跟這個台灣銀行來借款嗎是不是目前是這樣那是有借才要付利息沒有借要不要付利息要要沒有借要付利息那我們一年利息現在是付多少"},{"start":438.215,"end":440.612,"text":"對不起 利息 沒有借也要付利息啊"},{"start":441.787,"end":469.533,"text":"沒有借沒有啊我剛有聽委員問說沒有借的話一年要付七十幾億利息來來你講清楚沒借也要付利息嗎沒有借當然不付嘛對啊那為什麼他就用五千億來跟你算一年要付七十幾億的利息你講清楚但是他不讓我講所以沒有借當然就沒有付利息的問題我們現在就說借多少那就按照多少去算利息"},{"start":469.953,"end":489.146,"text":"對啊 應該是借多少 然後利息算多少不可能說沒有借 而且這個兩千億是台灣銀行就是預計跟銀行借三千億是這個四大基金啊所以也不可能用五千億去算啊對啊 我剛剛看你說你是好像沒有時間回答啦所以我在這個地方讓你問清楚所以不可能說你有七十幾億的利息啊"},{"start":490.387,"end":515.276,"text":"不可能嘛對 沒錯好那我再請教一下因為剛好那次常請回我請教部長因為其實上次我在質詢的時候有提到說因為我們現在普發現金就是有很多的一個方法可以領那時候我有提到說一個國民的單一賬戶的制度就是說小孩出生我們就給他一個賬戶然後如果政府有類似這一種"},{"start":517.016,"end":530.923,"text":"补贴补助的话都可以汇到这个账户来所以也防止诈骗那也简单清楚然后我刚好看到说美国川普总统他有一个川普的账户"},{"start":532.163,"end":553.417,"text":"這個川普賬戶他是說只要小孩子一出生然後政府當然他的任期之內政府會給予這一個一千美金這個種子基金然後除了政府給的之外你家庭成員也可以提撥然後雇主也可以提撥那這樣的方式這筆錢你都不能動用你必須要滿18歲的時候你才可以作為你的購房教育創業"},{"start":562.223,"end":582.616,"text":"這些用途才可以使用它基本上是給小孩的第一桶金那也鼓勵企業來投資那也鼓勵父母來投資孩子的未來然後這個就是等於是用複利的一個效果讓孩子們這一出生到18歲之後可以累積他的第一桶金那我請問一下 這個部長"},{"start":585.646,"end":605.405,"text":"你覺得我們台灣要不要有類似的這一種我們給小孩子零歲出生我們就給他的贈物我們給他第一桶金然後藉由政府 家庭 企業一起來讓我們的孩子下一代在18歲之後至少他有第一桶金可以使用家長的負擔也不會那麼重"},{"start":607.377,"end":628.626,"text":"謝謝委員 我想委員這樣的一個建議事實上也因應了現在少子女化的一個情況然後有一個兒少 那我們這邊兒少是有一個單一帳戶但並不是全部 那是一個志願性的 並不是強制他不是有條件限制嗎我記得他有條件限制喔 好像是中低收入戶"},{"start":630.168,"end":655.2,"text":"沒有沒有限制我想這個部分因為涉及到內政部跟教育部我們想這個部分我們會再來聯繫到進一步再跟委員做說明我是希望說剛好有這一個川普賬戶可以作為參考你剛才講那個我記得這個內政部我以前記得就是說有但是那個好像有這個限制所以那個申請的那個賬戶的人家庭數也很少"},{"start":655.7,"end":669.913,"text":"跟這個普遍的每一個小孩子他出生就有一個帳戶政府投資 企業投資那個完全不一樣是不同的概念你們去研究一下好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員了解好的 因為我上次有提到你們說要跟這個國發會做研究我也不曉得到底後來"},{"start":671.114,"end":686.333,"text":"全体国民有一个单一账户那这边又是国民单一账户跟儿少这个部分你们来想一下好不好谢谢谢谢李坤诚召委谢谢主席接下来请陈玉珍委员咨询"}]}},{"id":"166328","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166328","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0425f21c8a0ab50a09ecb9f93c172c5514f1120d908022d4db22339bbe58c964b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:19:05 - 12:26:16","影片長度":"00:07:11","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「財政收支劃分法」7案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員郭國文等17人、委員賴瑞隆等19人、委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n(二)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等26人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例」2案：（僅詢答）\n(一)本院委員郭國文等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n 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黃美惠黃市長講得清清澈澈現在我告訴你你砍的是什麼錢我先問你第一個問題我們這三種就是統籌款跟地方補助款跟計劃金補助款你有什麼道理"},{"start":212.389,"end":229.583,"text":"怎麼這樣面對嘉義市 面對環民委員會你為什麼統籌款 我辛辛苦苦我從去年21號當立委下來 進來你看 財政部你有沒有知道主席在那裡我執行這個統籌款的議題好幾次了對不對我當黨團的副總召 免事抄襲協商我是不是都逆增"},{"start":230.697,"end":255.369,"text":"不只是各個縣市特別嘉義市連他們派副市長上來開供電會我都還爭取讓他們上來講話就在力爭因為嘉義市小而美它的錢就很少嘛我們力爭了多少經過這樣力爭 期改這樣力爭我們增加了好不容易增加66億這對嘉義市非常重要嘉義市的預算規模只有200億元在今年之前都只有180 190到今年度喔"},{"start":256.755,"end":278.284,"text":"才超過兩百億 兩百零三 結果你賭六十九億我好不容易爭取到六十六 你砍了六十九你只要對得起嘉義市民嘉義絕對不會不會比一百一十四年度少三種錢加起來一定不減少你現在 你去現你現在算過來算過來 看過來 預算書你的預算書就八月送過來的預算書還有你們修的這個"},{"start":282.881,"end":304.453,"text":"中央對直轄市跟各縣市的補助辦法你現在砍了這69啊就是說預算書上面總預算書你不要說謊好不好不是不是你現在總預算書上面跟預算書的資金就有29億了嘛而且金額我跟你講更要不得了你知道69億不是只有金額大喔項目是什麼"},{"start":308.019,"end":329.661,"text":"窮不能窮小孩嘛苦不能哭小孩你砍的是家意事小孩子營養有差的錢學校教室的水電費還有黃油治水 清液的錢不是啦 那不是要砍啦那是要讓他用...你現在還在狡辯說要調整不是 我們保證不減少結果就減少嘛 對不對不是 只是還沒有"},{"start":330.302,"end":339.058,"text":"那個還沒有要我們要均衡財政均衡那筆錢還沒分配出去分配出去以後加益絕對不會減少"},{"start":341.542,"end":369.722,"text":"六個縣市統籌款都增加現在是我們這樣力爭的66億可以幫家醫師做太多事情了可是我剛才在強調200億規模的小而美的家醫師66億可以做很多事情結果你現在去砍69這太過分了啦砍了三分之一好那你現在今天要承諾第一個我現在為什麼叫財政部長來財政部長等一下你現在要提再提書面資料給張委員盡快我大概一分鐘做個結論啦我要一分鐘做個結論財政部現在說行政院有新版嘛對不對"},{"start":370.603,"end":388.881,"text":"你新版如果回到舊的 還有昨天總裁自己講啦他一個人都可以解決所以我明確的要求這個砍得太離譜了 這69億不能砍啦而且他都是法定的義務支出喔很多都是延續 我剛才講的啊你叫黃龍治水清 你叫嘉義市不要清嗎"},{"start":391.091,"end":409.862,"text":"營養午餐的錢 你要對不起小孩子嗎張委員 我們時間到了這個張委員他所不了解的地方再請副主席長提供資料給他因為有一些資訊是不清楚的來 謝謝等一下 財政部長問一下你的試算表 道歉沒拿出來嘉義市的試算表怎麼把69億補回來這個我第一次追"},{"start":411.843,"end":419.79,"text":"好 謝謝我們張委員最嚴重的是不能砍這麼多而且都是一個聯繫性跟法定的資訊我們把詳細的資料確實的資料提供給張委員好 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因為這就是公共性嘛特別是著作權法的第30條的精神它就是說著作財產權它只存續在著作人生存的期間跟他死亡後的50年那超出這個範圍就是公共財產了所以任何人都能夠"},{"start":253.386,"end":272.548,"text":"自由利用更何況中央社跟公廣集團都是全民投資的這個媒體公共媒體那具備高度的公共性這是無庸置疑所以再請教一下胡社長就是說未來這些歷史資料是否可以應該就是無條件來釋出那當然"},{"start":275.51,"end":296.981,"text":"您剛剛的回答是說假設這個中央政府全力支持你應該也會這樣做齁那還是要請看看你的意見怎麼樣那還有這個胡董事長就公廣集團內是不是也有類似的問題那是不是也可以無條件來釋出這些花全民納稅人這個稅金投資的成果"},{"start":298.615,"end":314.187,"text":"我中央社先表達我們願意我們在科技的範圍內百分之百無償給大眾使用但是我先要先講我們每年需要6億7的開支政府只補助我們3.2億今年又被扣了1600萬"},{"start":315.568,"end":344.651,"text":"我进来以后到现在我一年要筹将近四亿的经费所以如果四亿找得到我们很愿意这应该要落实我觉得作为国家通讯社当我出去找预算的时候人家都告诉我不可能政府没有支持如果可以的话我们很愿意百分之百支持公共性预算方面当然我们要监督当然我也是希望让你能充分去运用可是我们公共性一定要把持住好那董事长呢"},{"start":347.746,"end":365.061,"text":"跟委员报告一下我们现在是2010年以后的资料都上了这个像YouTube还有我们的新闻网那因为那涉及到数位化的作业那有一个重要的问题是因为影像资料它涉及到许多的版权的问题"},{"start":365.701,"end":381.762,"text":"对 所以那个部分会比跟文字的处理相对来讲就比较复杂不过如果是属于公益使用或者学术使用的部分通常跟我们联系而在我们人力可以处理的范围内我们也很乐意提供出来大概目前的状况是这样好"},{"start":382.563,"end":402.828,"text":"那再來我還是在談台灣Plus就是說它成立以來其實一直是在野黨的劍靶那其實好像恨不得要把台灣對國際發聲這個管道關掉本席對台灣Plus欠缺台灣脈絡的問題其實我有很多意見那相關的預算案我也都寫好了可是好"},{"start":403.508,"end":417.425,"text":"監督是為了讓台灣PLUS更好而不是直接要讓他關台喔好 那其實台灣PLUS遠遠不只是放送新聞而已他是要讓全世界認識台灣欸甚至是台灣的文化那當然是"},{"start":418.766,"end":440.015,"text":"特別是要讓全世界知道說有台灣這個台灣plus這個國家的窗口那也因為如此我覺得台灣plus在面對種種的挫折的當中我們看見的其實是台灣文化發展的悲哀啊那所以請教董事長如果這個會期還有人要大刪台灣plus的預算你會如何捍衛啊"},{"start":441.663,"end":468.651,"text":"谢谢委员给这样的一个机会来说明基本上来讲诚如您所谈的台湾Plus应该就是向全世界来说台湾的故事这个是最重要的任务那在说这个故事的过程中我们的确有一些地方做得不够尽善也不够尽美这些事情我们都要检讨改进不过从整体来讲我们的预算如果拿英国BBC来讲大概在160亿台币拿"},{"start":469.511,"end":490.58,"text":"德国资深来讲一年大概在190亿台币那我们目前来讲当然这个经费大家都很清楚当然差很多那即使如此我们也不会认为这样的一个经费是不能够加以发挥的在8亿的预算基础之上事实上现在有非常多的国际媒体跟我们是在合作那因为有这样的合作所以让"},{"start":491.26,"end":508.346,"text":"台湾Plus让台湾的故事有机会能够向更多的全球的公民可以来加以展现那第二个是我们实际上新管有一些缺失但我们实际上在浏览人数浏览的这个次数和浏览的这个时数我们都是在"},{"start":509.69,"end":526.185,"text":"明顯的顯著成長所以我想這些事情都應該是讓大家能夠了解好 陳其昌會長有一句話很有力量他說你不能只在贏的時候才愛他們所以我想我們國球棒球如此台灣的國家文化也當然要如此"},{"start":526.846,"end":555.816,"text":"那日本韓國跟台灣一樣其實都在發展屬於自己的這個國際平台嘛就像台灣plus那可是跟台灣不一樣的是人家日韓就是在娛樂產業啊觀光啊藝術這個多面向的工作他已經有長年累積的這種成果也就是說全世界在早就在買單日韓的文化的狀態下那他們就會願意進一步來看他的所謂的國際平台"},{"start":556.596,"end":583.311,"text":"那台灣不一樣 就是我們的文化跟我們的國際媒體就是在逐步推進的過程中當然就如童芸說的步步不容易可是一個國家這個國際媒體的發展當然很顯然必須要打一場跨文化領域的這個團體戰那方方面面的這個文化內容都必須要提升一起來拉拔所以胡董事長你認同這樣嘛所以也要跟文化部去密切合作 對不對"},{"start":584.52,"end":601.992,"text":"是,这个跨领域的团体战的确是很重要,对公广集团来讲它也只能够扮演其中的一个角色,那我们也很希望跟其他的文化领域一起来做,那目前来讲我们一方面已经成为这个就是跨入国际公共领域的一座桥,"},{"start":602.873,"end":628.544,"text":"那因为让我们能够在国际的公共媒体的领域里面很容易能够发声那第二方面是我们也是跨境国际数位平台的一块砖因为我们现在有很多作品有机会能够进国际的平台让全世界来看那我们愿意在这两个力量之下跟其他的领域一起来协作好谢谢主席不好意思再三十秒就好我请一下李远部长谢谢"},{"start":631.209,"end":653.744,"text":"部長 我們上個禮拜有去看大峰之島的手印喔那我想你看了應該也非常有所感那熱身這個問題我想你也有深入的了解那上一次的這個預算審查過程中我就有邀請您要到熱身去看一看特別是去了解這個世界遺產潛力點的狀況那不曉得這個熱身刑什麼時候可以成行"},{"start":654.938,"end":671.281,"text":"樂森因為我一直想了解他那個來龍去脈但是我所知道的是因為是他整個都是衛福部的那個的預算跟衛福部在他的那個他在主導全部的事情那文化部在裡面的角色就是"},{"start":672.322,"end":700.957,"text":"在一個委員會裡面有一個人負責是把文化的意見給他那我看完這個大峰之島之後我覺得我本來認為我們能夠介入的東西真的很少因為已經做到今天這樣子了我已經開始進行管理啊什麼那我想看到這個電影我覺得得來不易我想我在最短時間最短時間內會去邀請這個衛福部的部長我們一起來針對這個事情再一起談"},{"start":702.117,"end":727.216,"text":"因為確實是因為有世界遺產潛力點這個因素所以我覺得應該要熱血起來熱血文化部是以我來顧之類的好不好那天我有看到那個愛蒂雅協會一封長信給您有 他們也提出很多訴求是 是 是那我想說是不是也給本席一些完整的回覆好不好好 沒問題"},{"start":728.137,"end":751.509,"text":"針對這些跟他們提的訴求我會很仔細的回答看看有什麼事情我做得到有什麼事情做不到然後我會去跟衛福部的部長我們見個面來更仔細的談一談讓他保留花這麼時間保留下來之後可不可以發揮更大的文化的效用好 那你預計什麼時候會比較完整的回復熱身"},{"start":753.154,"end":767.695,"text":"我想要一個月以內因為我明天就想我明天就想跟部長見個面跟他談這個事OK 好 謝謝謝謝部長謝謝董事長謝謝社長謝謝主席好 謝謝林一錦委員那首長請"}]}},{"id":"166326","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166326","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c012693b3ab010fbd49ecb9f93c172c5514f1120d908022d4d10497944ed0372c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:11:38 - 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加勤加班費還有國民年金法 農民健康保險條例老年農民福利津貼暫行條例及中低收入戶老人生活津貼發起辦法很多的法規也都明定這個地方政府要支出的部分可以在一般性補助款裡面來支應所以才會編列一般性補助款"},{"start":87.253,"end":114.903,"text":"这个相关的这些条文都很明确第三条第一项也都写一般性补助款教育社会福利及基本设施等补助经费更明确的根据这些条文之后行政院主级总处将114年度中央政府总预算案编列依法例一物之初的明细表依法例一物之初"},{"start":116.667,"end":141.584,"text":"哪些經費多少錢總共多少經費都寫得很清楚2,501億但是呢審完預算之後也拖了好幾個月突然想到行政院突然想到我們先看這個"},{"start":143.614,"end":169.393,"text":"總統令因為立法院修了這個財政收支發生法包含了第三十條條文院長 卓榮泰院長也附屬了所以公布施行就生效了就是這個三十條做了這樣的一個修正這個行政院竟然在五月十六號突然想到前面都沒有想到突然想到我們應該砍地方政府補助款"},{"start":172.301,"end":199.17,"text":"就造成这样的一个非常非常莫名其妙的所以我们尤其是组织总处都是公务人员部长也是公务人员出身都当了几十年的公务人员我自己过去也是三十年公务人员真的是一个"},{"start":201.005,"end":224.417,"text":"變成一個不依法行政的中央接下來好多警察人員能施條例公佈修正公佈啦也不編預算軍人待遇條例也公佈施行啦也不編預算這個國家怎麼會弄到這樣所以我們尤其是主計總署這個"},{"start":228.581,"end":252.973,"text":"就是要去把關是 剛委員報告就是補助辦法就是它是配合財化法它是一個配套的機制所以剛剛委員所剛開始簡報所提的那個辦法它就是舊的財化法所配套的補助辦法那因為今年3月21號總統公佈了新的財化法所以我們依照"},{"start":253.493,"end":277.945,"text":"第30條授權定的補助辦法所以我們去配套去修了我們的補助辦法所以基本上我們就依法行政完全錯誤這個法律的修正並沒有要你去修這個一般性補助款何況卓院長這個114年5月16號函"},{"start":284.076,"end":307.362,"text":"再修正 就是再大砍本来你已经列为法律义务支出你跟立法院说这个是法律义务支出然后砍这个就是没有依法行政所以这个部分我们现在怎么样去把这些问题尤其是115年度的预算"},{"start":308.482,"end":331.852,"text":"委員我真的要你先看你先幫我仔細看這個115年度的更離譜委員我們真的是為了調計營需而修補助辦法我會讓你回答115年度的一般性補助款你先砍了大幅度把一般性補助款1764億2000多萬把它列為什麼要計劃型"},{"start":338.188,"end":361.204,"text":"然後砍了之後計劃型的然後把這些砍的又編給各部會又分配給各部會又增加了這些所以這個時間的關係這個我最主要就是說法律當然我們今天這個召委排了這個財化法的修正"},{"start":362.408,"end":385.534,"text":"我們希望能夠大家及時管理但是我們就擔心修法了之後又不執行現在這個國家已經面臨這個問題了所以這個不用回應了委員真的報告就是我們統籌分配稅有增加以後造成縣市之間的不均衡我們修補住辦法是要讓縣市去平衡它的差異"},{"start":386.614,"end":408.836,"text":"我沒有去提你修正的辦法那我們怎麼樣再能夠更符合相關的這些法制以及預算的編列所以我也在今天的財政收支化合法第30條的修正裡面能夠把它該放入該納入的"},{"start":418.009,"end":427.602,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在場下一位徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員"}]}},{"id":"166325","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166325","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c05581f45cb4903c399ecb9f93c172c5514f1120d908022d4d4dbbcf117f4815fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:04:25 - 12:11:33","影片長度":"00:07:08","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「財政收支劃分法」7案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員郭國文等17人、委員賴瑞隆等19人、委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n(二)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等26人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例」2案：（僅詢答）\n(一)本院委員郭國文等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n 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候針對法案的審查所提出來的書面報告是針對所提出來的版本表達意見但請教一下主計總署"},{"start":116.431,"end":141.138,"text":"你們今天的這個報告為什麼沒有針對今天排在議程上面的版本表達意見跟我們報告就是說因為財化法這個主管機關是財政部那我們主計總處負責的是針對補助款配套的部分一樣啊今天他們所提出來的財化法修正條文的版本"},{"start":143.24,"end":170.509,"text":"也有處理相關的部分啊那我現在看不懂啊行政機關到立法院來基本的尊重展現在做該做的事情上我簡單來講就Do your jobDo your job但我第一次看到一個行政機關我們現在修法的版本我很想看一看說那你們的意見是什麼"},{"start":172.036,"end":200.254,"text":"結果你們整份沒有這次修法版本的意見啊有有有跟文包我們最後有提到說委員所提跟補助相關的部分我們院版也有一起考量沒有啊 但是今天院版有排審嗎不是 我們有說明說今天院版有排審嗎今天我看不到你們對於委員所提出來的修法版本的意見啊我完全看不到啊"},{"start":201.604,"end":228.774,"text":"今天召委排ABC三個版本結果你整份報告在討論一個根本不存在的D版本行政機關怎麼會做這種事呢黃委員今天是討論委員版不好意思喔現在是我質詢的時間我跟您說明一下討論委員版的版本我在質詢的是行政官員我沒有要質詢主席啦所以主席不用緊張請坐下來好我做個說明好沒有關係所以我就讓你們好好的表達一下意見"},{"start":230.53,"end":257.692,"text":"賴瑞榮委員 邱益穎委員提案要把統籌分配款恢復去年修法以前意思是什麼他認為啊我們修法以後給地方政府的統籌分配款太多了不合理所以他們今天提出來的法案 討論的法案是要把它修正為我們去年修正以前基本上他要做的事情就是undo"},{"start":259.716,"end":266.2,"text":"回復到修法前的狀態請問一下針對這兩個提案財政部贊不贊成在這兩個我們的書面報告裡面都有寫對於中央統計規劃的規模我們認為應該要把它擴大要擴大所以賴若龍跟邱盈盈的這兩個提案你們是不是不贊成我們認為應該把它擴大所以這兩個提案你們是不是不贊成"},{"start":288.952,"end":309.924,"text":"我們認為院版裡面都已經有擴大了對啊我現在問啦現在院版就沒有審嘛所以我問你嘛今天我們如果要討論今天排巡達就是要討論他們提出來的版本嘛所以我請教財政部嘛這兩個版本你贊不贊成我們認為應該要擴大所以你不贊成嘛對我們認為可以擴大OK好來主語記總處贊不贊成"},{"start":312.554,"end":329.939,"text":"他們認為說現在給地方政府的統籌分配款修法以後給太多啦他要回復到修法前的狀態主席總署贊不贊成我們主要就是因為法主要是財政部我們就配合財政部的意見所以沒有意見嘛那妳今天來幹嘛"},{"start":332.202,"end":354.224,"text":"我們基本上還是有配套的部分補助款的部分對啊 所以我問你贊不贊成啊我們依法條論法條啊你討論法條的時候提出了修正版本說統籌分配款要修到修法前以前的狀態我很慎重我才問你贊不贊成嘛你總要有立場有態度啊那要不然你今天來練習幹嘛"},{"start":356.308,"end":385.222,"text":"我們有立場啊 來說我不知道不是 我們有立場啊就是說所以你贊不贊成不是 我們就是希望我們院版可以跟這些提案對嘛 所以我就一直跟你講院版沒有在桌上嘛我現在問你的是被排審的這兩個法案你贊不贊成贊成還不贊成我們沒有所謂贊成或反正我們就希望一起來一起討論啦針對這兩個版本所以主計總組是沒有意見就對了是嗎是不是沒有意見"},{"start":386.98,"end":406.603,"text":"奇怪你們來這邊練習要討論什麼法案把這個法案的內容先看過應該是基本功課吧我很詫異啦我請教你今天排審的法案主管機關的意見你們不敢表達意見那你們今天來幹嘛"},{"start":408.462,"end":421.909,"text":"我聽不懂啊 我完全聽不懂啊沒有 沒有 不敢表達我們就是希望跟院板一起討論沒有關係啊 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員我們也希望院板能夠進來討論那這樣子會更好接下來我們請鄭天才委員"}]}},{"id":"166324","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166324","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0b20e09dd20716cdbed0cecc406237e964f1120d908022d4d1257d1c12132fb9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:54:51 - 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我想今天早上你也蠻辛苦的就是很多人一直試圖去挑戰一些非常敏感的議題啦但是我覺得有一個詞我自己非常的不喜歡叫做逆滲透就是說我們好像一定要輸出到中國一樣因為我想大家可以看到韓團 韓劇現在的大流行是全球大流行不應該只有鎖定一個中國的好像就是我們唯一的市場我們一定要滲透進去因為我想韓國"},{"start":47.014,"end":67.63,"text":"禁韓令限韓令是讓韓國一直都這幾年都沒有辦法進去中國的一個很大的主令那個主令是誰下的是中國下的就像兵棋部被吳玉景的停止了這些演唱會那是誰下的其實是中國最愛畫紅線最愛禁的其實就是中國可是今天早上大家通篇不談中國對於這個"},{"start":70.792,"end":86.734,"text":"各種的限制的一個影響的問題所以我覺得今天部長早上講的就是說我們把整個市場面向國際面向新南向是一個非常好的策略這也是符合這幾年不管是日本或是韓國他們在發展的一個方向所以這一個部分我是予以肯定也非常的支持"},{"start":88.226,"end":107.722,"text":"那再來就是說我想還是要回到我們今天的主題就是在今天呢我們的公廣集團要來這邊做在立法院受到質詢可能相比BBC或是NHK來說是比較辛苦的因為在他們的國家的制度下面"},{"start":108.742,"end":122.089,"text":"英國的BBC其實他的皇家憲章白紙黑字寫得非常明確就是他們保障BBC的編輯獨立也規定他的公共使命所以他並不受制於政府他也不聽命令做節目他就是面向公眾"},{"start":123.547,"end":151.703,"text":"那它主要的裁员呢是全民缴交的license fee也不是商业广告也不是政府预算而日本的NHK的预算也就是来自于这个法规上面放送法的一个要求也要求它要保持公正编辑自主那它的裁员是来自于收视费所以只要家中有电视的人就需要缴费那这样子呢就保障了它的编辑自主性也不受政府的预算所主导也就不会有像去年这个我们的政其他的政党大砍"},{"start":152.603,"end":177.938,"text":"公共電視台的預算的一個問題那我也希望說我們是不是可以簡單的敘述一下去年我們在審查的時候多多少少還是砍了一些預算那到底對我們這個公廣集團的影響是什麼我想是不是請個別來講一下因為滿具體的砍掉之後我們是不是可以簡短的具體的來講一下讓我們民眾知道這些還是受到影響的部分 簡短"},{"start":180.06,"end":208.853,"text":"就是有些新制的時數會受到影響那尤其戲劇受到影響是最嚴重的戲劇受到影響最大是因為我們的製作費變少了好 了解那我們的公共電視或者是它是台灣plus的兩億跟委員報告 台灣plus因為預算少了兩億多所以在這個情況下很多國外 海外落點還有合約的談判都終止了節目製作跟新聞的製作也要縮減"},{"start":210.629,"end":230.874,"text":"好的了解好那我想這樣子的說明是讓大家讓我們的民眾更了解我們的刪減預算影響的是什麼那製作費的部分跟台灣plus我後面都會再問那接下來我就想要請教一下就是說部長我們在這幾年其實公共電視法修法之後呢"},{"start":232.901,"end":253.311,"text":"我們的上線已經被解除了所以近幾年的預算大概是落在27到29億之間那這幾年尤其是今年我們可以看到我們軍中獎得了非常非常多優秀的作品像是《聽海湧》跟《星空下的黑潮島嶼》我認為都是非常非常重要的一個影視音的作品那"},{"start":254.887,"end":276.003,"text":"其實我們在看很多韓劇的時候呢大家都會去跟著這個景點去打卡那最近推出的一部片大萌它也是很多人開始去考古它在哪裡拍的啊然後那個時代的限制是在哪裡所以我相信如果我們的影視作品有一定的支持的話是可以得到這樣子的一個有這樣子的程度受歡迎的程度"},{"start":276.683,"end":296.715,"text":"但是我得到消息我們目前公司所獲得資源一年光做一部作品其實就差不多了所以尤其是在製作費整個大高就是跟過去幾年相比其實成長的非常多我們有沒有可能更多的支持呢來去讓他們有更多的製作費有沒有可能部長您的想法是"},{"start":297.503,"end":312.952,"text":"我其實非常謝謝委員提到這一點就是公共電視其實它預算一直很低剛剛講到說它天花板拿掉可是它事實上二十幾億是好幾個頻道加起來官視主頻道還是差不多八九億所以"},{"start":313.772,"end":335.966,"text":"你想想看他每一年有很多還不錯的題材也開發成劇本了可是就是沒有錢拍據我知道他手上有好幾個案子都非常棒可是你只要沒有預算他就沒辦法做所以當我們在要求公款集團很多事情的時候應該今天還有委員講出來就是我們的預算跟全世界的公款集團比的話是非常小的"},{"start":336.326,"end":358.737,"text":"沒錯 是但是我想說在文化部本部這部分我們是不是也可以多一點支持在公司的部分是 其實我們有盡量想辦法支持他們很多計畫但是我覺得總預算把它升高總預算當然是要增加總預算升高是一個關鍵對 所以我想我不曉得部長就是說因為現在預算都還沒有進來你會不會擔心說那接下來我們可能有一些新興的"},{"start":360.339,"end":380.238,"text":"不管是工作啦公廣集團這邊會不會受到影響你這邊會不會有這樣子的擔心呢會 其實我覺得我每次看到他們手上有好多那個IP可以拍都是因為卡在預算不夠我真的非常著急因為就是你給他錢他都不太夠的情況下如果你在砍預算的話他根本不曉得怎麼辦"},{"start":380.959,"end":401.832,"text":"因為一年拍不到一兩部戲劇這樣沒錯 是的 是的所以我想這邊也是呼籲我們的在野黨的立委啦大家都很在乎我們的文化要輸出不管你輸出到哪個國家重點整個國際的資本是這麼的雄厚那我們就應該要盡速的來去做支持的這件事情而不是惡意的去做相關不重要的一些刪除這樣子"},{"start":402.412,"end":428.742,"text":"好 那再來下一個問題就會回到台灣Plus那台灣Plus就是當年我們的公共定位其實是要面向世界跟世界敘述台灣那剛剛也有提到說我們的預算刪除之後我們跟國際的合作就必須喊卡但是在這個部分之前我想要再討論一個不管是監察院報告大家都有提出來我們的敘事觀點不夠台灣我想這個是非常非常重要的一件事情就像我們之前有一部紀錄片叫做台灣 Undoubted"},{"start":429.162,"end":453.81,"text":"他選擇了用閩南代表台語而非使用台語那這個當然我們在關心之後那其實馬上就處理了這件事情可是我覺得這個也就是很容易如果我們的編輯台也好或是我們合作的單位沒有這樣子的一個對台灣的了解那其實呢就會造成一些問題那雖然說現在從編輯台上面從新聞上面來看"},{"start":454.77,"end":470.658,"text":"我們的台籍主管比例已經有提升但是我想也非常明確的主管雖然是台籍但是不代表他的敘事角度是非常以台灣為本土出發的所以呢我想了解就是說我知道我們現在有一些制度化的機制來去"},{"start":471.178,"end":488.809,"text":"做一些相關課程但是我希望這個課程可以面向更廣例如我們台灣的族群史語言的多樣性轉型正義的脈絡還有台灣認同的相關研究我們是不是可以邀請相關領域的專家學者來開課呢是不是可以我想請那個執行長來回答"},{"start":490.842,"end":504.794,"text":"謝謝委員特別是您剛提到各種不同族群背景的題目我們都未來會先請外部諮詢委員給我們指導那包括像我們先前處理原住民的節目的不夠周詳我們現在未來都會想跟包括像部落的長老或會議來諮詢"},{"start":507.136,"end":521.222,"text":"我想除了諮詢之外啦可能定期的上課因為你們現在本來就有在上課了嘛我們有教育訓練的課程對你們本來就有教育訓練的課程只是說我是希望這個教育訓練的課程是不是可以面向更寬廣一點是可以嗎我們大概每一季都有固定的教育訓練課程然後會面向國際讓台灣觀點能夠更充分的"},{"start":522.503,"end":550.478,"text":"那我們現在就是希望這個台灣觀點的課程內容更豐富那這點是可以做到的我們可以把這個課程再跟委員說明好那再來還有監察院也提出了一份報告就是說我們雖然說台籍主播比例達到了七成但是呢我們似乎有把口音視為一個評選的重點那我認為台籍比例是七成不代表我們沒有把口音視為一個評選的重點所以我只是在想說我們是不是可以去"},{"start":551.418,"end":576.138,"text":"在招募的时候不要去把口音列为是一个负面条件因为每一个国家他的口音其实代表他的一个语言的脉络我们现在都保留本国籍同仁的本来的语音我们只是增加他的口条训练因为其实我们在跟NHK相比他们也会有日籍的记者我们也是比照这个方法在改进虽然都已经让记者自己发挥但是在他叙事能力上要加以训练"},{"start":576.857,"end":585.545,"text":"好 謝謝 所以我們聽起來就是說口音不是一個負面排除條件了嘛 對不對好 那在下一個我最後很快的問一下央廣後台的安全度 可不可以請一下央廣"},{"start":600.031,"end":625.737,"text":"好 我想前面的許多委員都已經非常關心了我們陽廣的這次的事件那剛剛也有說明現在已經是最高等級也都已經通過了許多的一些這個測試啦那我想問一下就是說因為其實我自己在看的時候呢當然我們現在已經做了一些機制然後剛剛有聽到說你們有一些SOP但是我想可能有一些是特意透過系統的建置上面因為這次是內控那怎麼會"},{"start":627.577,"end":648.644,"text":"就是说我们会录取到什么样子的人太难以去判断可是呢其实有很多的系统我包含我自己看不管是我们国家的许多的政府单位他其实都有建制一个像这样子的系统就是如果侦测到异动的时候可以即刻主动复原或者是说及时进行通报来掌握系统的更动那我想了解一下我们目前在针对这个部分是不是已经有做到了"},{"start":649.244,"end":677.675,"text":"我们现在正在加强中跟委员报告但是老实说其实要更新这些系统需要一些新的设备然后我们央广在过去在这方面的资安的预算现在因为提升所以是要再加强所以我们这个部分是要一步一步的进行但是我们现在已经开始已经执行的包括零信任的管理然后另外还有就是"},{"start":678.835,"end":702.536,"text":"同仁要求定期的更新密碼還有我們現在在錄取同仁的部分會再加強做背景的查核這個是都已經在執行的我想就是說因為畢竟我們這個是一級我們現在是像是A一級關鍵基礎設施然後自然也是A級對沒錯沒錯那我想我們是不是可以在今年因為其實這個東西沒有辦法去等"},{"start":703.277,"end":720.435,"text":"如果我們有這樣子的系統的話我們就可以隨時的去避免這樣子的狀況就可以避免我們這個人認為的一個因素所以這個部分是不是在今年的預算上面也可以來去怎麼樣去反映來更新呢因為現在預算還在審查當中但是你在編列的時候"},{"start":722.998,"end":747.907,"text":"能够有这样的预算但这个你也知道央广是一个20个语言的广播电台所以这个系统应该是有点庞杂所以我们非常希望这个预算如果我们自己不足的话希望也能够得到行政院文化部或者是书法部所以听起来就是说我们会去盘点然后我们会去看多少的预算我们会去争取吗对我们会去争取"},{"start":748.627,"end":760.904,"text":"好 我希望任正群毕竟他是我们也对 因为他会代表的可能是非常敏感的一个议题是谢谢好 谢谢好 谢谢张亚林委员执行那欢迎请回座"}]}},{"id":"166323","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166323","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0a33b68123900240b129e80178479e3604f1120d908022d4db057e84e5f10c5cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:58:04 - 12:05:53","影片長度":"00:07:49","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員許智傑等38 人擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。\n二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等 18 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劉部長 劉部長有請請部長"},{"start":9.861,"end":36.094,"text":"辛苦 這今天很多委員當然今天主題是宗教基本法我們待會花點時間討論但小紅書這個事在輿論上面有很多的攻防跟風波但我覺得有些話要講講清楚現在很多人去講說當初在野黨也非常支持炸防條例第42條的修正沒有錯啊 當初我們就坐在這個地方討論這個但那個時候我要還原一下當時的狀況當時我們去授予行政機關可以停止解析特定的網域他其實是有理由的嘛"},{"start":36.454,"end":55.615,"text":"理由是什麼 我們在討論所謂的平台詐騙的時候它的模式是很清楚的也就是說我運用平台的自然流量比如說Meta的也好 Line的也好等等也好它都是一樣的模式嘛也就是說我用這個網站帶來的社交互動然後導引它透過連結轉到一個外部的詐騙網站然後在那個網站上行使詐騙行為"},{"start":57.116,"end":78.787,"text":"部長應該不會反對我這樣說 那是我們當初討論的結果不是嗎 對不對是 那我也是把當時在回顧一下當時的部分 我們立法的意旨也寫在後面不是寫在法條裡面所以給你快速打擊去設定解析網易權其實就是要你趕快透過平台端的協助 立刻抓到網站然後把網站停止解析 這個才是真正的打仗"},{"start":79.247,"end":99.624,"text":"那今天會引起軒然大波當然是因為你把它上綱道變成可以處理平台當然你有你的說法這我們也當然敬表尊重當然也會影響到人民的生活人民自然而然會給這樣的措施一個答案結果也會有時間來公佈但我覺得要還原清楚這個事情不能說因為你們當初也支持42條所以今天這樣子就不能講不是的 要把話說清楚"},{"start":100.405,"end":126.973,"text":"我們當初講42條給你用的目標其實當初講得很清楚就是針對這些導引到外部網站的這些網站進行精準打擊這個才是停止解析網易真正的用途不管詐騙來自於小紅書也好抖音也好或者是Facebook、IG、Threads或者是Line都一樣針對這些網站去做精準的打擊跟封鎖才是真正的打詐這一點核心序可以嗎 部長我這樣講應該沒有背離道理吧"},{"start":127.561,"end":152.068,"text":"沒有 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麻煩請部長請劉部長委員好部長好 今天大家討論的宗教基本法那當然"},{"start":20.854,"end":40.535,"text":"內政部的立場是認為說因為憲法已經有相關規範了所以沒有必要再去訂定宗教基本法但本席是認為這樣邏輯不存在因為實際上憲法有規定很多事情後來也都有訂定基本法憲法認為教育很重要我們也有相關教育的基本法"},{"start":41.311,"end":64.902,"text":"我覺得部長不要先入為主如果說內政部對於宗教基本法相關法條的細節你認為哪裡有問題哪裡有問題我覺得這個可以在審查法案的時候來討論但不要先入為主認為說沒有必要啦就說這個不要立我覺得這個已經就是剝奪了大家討論這事情的空間了所以我還是蠻支持主席今天排"},{"start":65.575,"end":83.213,"text":"排這個案子 備詢我希望說下次如果還有進一步的時候內政部可以用一個比較開放的態度來討論這個事情畢竟我覺得宗教自由這個是非常上位的人權跟自由的概念那是非常需要受到重視應該要有一個上位的法律啦我都不知道可不可以啦"},{"start":84.452,"end":106.641,"text":"謝謝委員 委員今天的發言我們都聽到了那就是宗教基本法我們也是就那個每一個條文裡面的宗教基本法有沒有抵觸到我們現在一般的實體法令也提出我們見解那大部分的人希望說行政院提出一個宗教基本法但是在內政部到目前為止整理的意見剛剛我們已經說過很多次就是我們的宗教諮詢委員大概有90%"},{"start":108.542,"end":137.344,"text":"因為這個你很多講我只能問一個態度啦所以聽起來你不反對定宗教基本法嗎我比較傾向說我們是先訂定譬如說宗教團體法而不是基本法因為如果你要講基本法的概念的話可能我們牽涉到的就是要把我覺得這個不想這裡沒有什麼一定要先再怎麼樣後啦我也不覺得一定有什麼前後抵觸啦基本法的位階跟一般法律的位階是不一樣的你可以不然你就可以同時"},{"start":138.345,"end":155.204,"text":"訂出來大家一起討論也可以啦來看看是不是一定要先訂你講的宗教傳遞法這也是一個方向你要嘛就一起提出來討論啦這也是一個方向就不要用黨的態度啦欸沒有沒有我想OKOK你如果是支持的你如果是支持我覺得大家就往前推進啦就是什麼方法分進合集或"},{"start":155.925,"end":172.167,"text":"說怎麼樣我覺得OK但是大家就往前推進了然後我也來問一下這個有關於詐欺問題因為我早上的時候看張志仁委員問部長張志仁委員是擔心說因為現在小紅書進一年之後會出現很多VPN"},{"start":173.021,"end":197.047,"text":"或是翻牆的軟體那可能會出現很多假的小紅書或者是假的BPM然後就會讓不熟悉網站的人他可能以為他上了一個假的小紅書或上一個BPM但實際上這個BPM跟這個小紅書可能是一個詐騙網站也就是說你在禁止小紅書的同時你也助長了很多詐欺網站"},{"start":198.667,"end":206.618,"text":"存在的這樣的一個效果所以他問部長說那這部分怎麼辦那我那時候看部長的回答是說你無法處理這件事情"},{"start":207.426,"end":231.422,"text":"我有沒有誤會這個我想不是這樣子那你要 因為你那時候說這不是你管理的範圍啊不是 我的意思就是說有一部分啦在這個詐欺犯罪危害條例裡面有一部分是數位經濟的產業主管機關他們在負責的那這個警政署所負責的部分是在抓跟這個詐欺有關的部分那如果有詐欺網站出現的話我們會繼續抓但是會比較不容易抓得到我覺得有點本位主義 為什麼因為這件事情確實是你進小紅書所引發出來的效果"},{"start":237.726,"end":258.661,"text":"那當然站在政府機關的立場尤其是我們還有打詐中心本來就要把這個可能的效果也有委員提醒你們就要納入去思考說什麼去規範那你說不關內政部的事可是問題是你回答的讓我感覺在推嘛不然你就把它擔下來嘛因為你今天打詐你現在進小紅書出來發言的都是內政部的次長啊"},{"start":259.722,"end":286.95,"text":"也是歸你管的啊報告那個內政部的次長他是行政院詐欺是沒有錯你當然可以但是我就覺得就本位主義嘛今天就是因為內政部次長報告了靜小胡這件事情所以大家很多委員會來跟你反映嘛因為你們也畢竟也是同個單位雖然他也在行政院打詐中心但你說喔他在打詐中心所以就不關我的事雖然是他的長官可是他是另外一個任務我覺得這樣的態度太官僚了"},{"start":287.83,"end":308.609,"text":"大家不能接受 所以希望所以希望 不 欸 為什麼你都不對著麥克風講話我 對不起你這樣感覺好像我叫你罰站 你不要這樣子我們 何愛可親 好不好我跟蔣講的話 你就這樣我們來改進 我們的那個沒有 我在跟你對話嘛 我在跟你對話所以我覺得那個事情是要處理的是要處理的 希望說你今天有"},{"start":309.233,"end":326.307,"text":"聽到委員的建議啊回去就不管是跟馬事員市長講或者是達拉中心或者是警察反映說可能會有這次這樣的狀況第二個就是馬事員市長昨天講的東西我也覺得很奇怪叫超前封鎖他說因為他預判"},{"start":327.748,"end":340.309,"text":"未來小紅書一定會進入到更多的詐騙因為Meta或什麼其他的平台已經這個詐騙有合作有減少所以未來詐騙者會轉進小紅書我認為他是對網路完全不了解"},{"start":341.482,"end":369.632,"text":"因為像Meta很多詐騙的網站他是冒用名人啊冒用主播冒用名人騙大家投資什麼之類的這以前大家都講很多次謝金河還生氣啊說為什麼每次反應都不下架後來當時速發部的部長唐鳳說不是不下架是防不勝防下架一個又上來一個下架一個又上來一個那這個是受眾的問題嘛你覺得他們有可能假冒名人跑到小紅書去去騙那些青少年投資嗎所以這個講這個話是完全對"},{"start":370.936,"end":393.671,"text":"我覺得對網路生態的不了解感覺是硬掰出來的啦這個部長你沒有要替他回答是不是不是 因為那個馬次長他所提到的部分是在他打詐中心的職責齁那如果裡面有這些發言上面引起委員困擾的部分我們來檢討喔喔 所以 都 好好那請你轉達 因為有人蠻會推的欸蛤太極高手"},{"start":399.807,"end":411.096,"text":"我說你太極拳應該打得不錯我不會太極拳好 那既然這樣 趙委那我就質詢到這邊因為我比較難應對太極高手 好 謝謝好 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最近宣蘭大夫被禁了小紅書啊他詐欺的財損多少錢2億多"},{"start":59.84,"end":87.989,"text":"兩億多是2024年到現在826億全台炸雞的財損在小紅書的平台上面負責的大概是兩億多這個比例我相信大家看得蠻清楚部長也應該可以了解就是因為這樣子懸殊的比例只有小紅書被禁引發非常多的議論部長說要守法"},{"start":89.359,"end":113.228,"text":"小紅書高風險依照炸防條例第42條近一年這個我看的是內政部的新聞稿台灣是法治國家我們就來依法論法第一個炸防條例第42條規範的要件它在規範的是網路廣告平台業者還是在規範炸棄網站"},{"start":118.059,"end":138.956,"text":"來我們看一下法條好不好為了處理詐欺犯罪防制緊急案件及時防制民眾接觸詐欺網站他講的是詐欺網站不是網路廣告平台業者第二個42條絕對不是像你們現在這樣解釋適用"},{"start":143.207,"end":166.238,"text":"沒有42條他要處理緊急性的案件他沒有相關的要件標準跟程序他是一個緊急性在移除一夜市的詐欺網站所適用的法條我們再往下看部長說小紅書他拒絕落地不能不遵守台灣的法律那抽象的概念上面來講"},{"start":168.443,"end":196.864,"text":"並不是說錯但我們來看一下打炸條例的規範是什麼因為我現在發覺我們大部分的人在討論這個問題的時候什麼大家都沒有依照法律來討論我為什麼講這件事情來看一下在新文化防治條例網路廣告平台業者利用網際網路於中華民國領域內提供網路廣告服務達到一定的規模適用本條例的規定沒有錯吧"},{"start":199.172,"end":225.595,"text":"那按照目前適用本條例規定的網路廣告平台業者要交由主管機關來公告納管的名單那目前納管的名單有哪些現在小紅書還沒有納進去不過這個是我們先一樣一樣來我們要利用詐欺危害防制條例那我們台灣是法治國家就要依法"},{"start":228.022,"end":254.559,"text":"網路廣告平台業者要依照打造條例納管必須要達到一定的規模由速發布來公告目前速發布公告的有FB有Google有Meta有Line目前依照這個條例納管的網路廣告平台業者只有這四家我的資訊有沒有錯"},{"start":257.369,"end":284.675,"text":"沒有錯嘛那小紅書如果你們認為有必要要納管那是主管機關要納管因為我先帶你們看法條規範的要件你要被納管了以後才有法尊的要求這些法尊的要求包括了要求你要在我國落地要指定代理人或管理人要要求他們執行"},{"start":286.414,"end":308.101,"text":"打詐條例的法尊措施但問題是我現在我完全看不懂在幹嘛你說小紅書沒有符合我們的法尊要求但問題是你根本連公告納管都沒有啊我現在完全看不懂啊我們的主管機關到底是怎麼在適用法律的啊你如果認為小紅書很嚴重那就把他納管你一方面又不納管"},{"start":317.438,"end":329.946,"text":"你不那管怎麼樣去要求他符合打詐條打詐條例的法尊要求這是法條白紙黑字寫在上面可以示意一下嗎"},{"start":334.23,"end":363.252,"text":"報告委員 我想您講的部分當然是在法條上的適用的問題啦台灣是法治國家當然是有法律啊當然我完全同意台灣是法治的國家但是我們通知小紅書他也沒有接受我們的通知啊我們是有把這個訊息通知到他兩回事齁你說不能不遵守台灣法律那要遵守台灣法律依照打炸條例的要求依照打炸條例的要求就是要公告納管"},{"start":364.633,"end":388.527,"text":"那你也沒有公告他是要納管的範圍因此沒有辦法啟動打詐條例29條以下所有的程序規定我對法條的解釋應該是沒有錯啦現在我完全看不懂我們的政府在幹嘛跟人民說小紅書詐騙很嚴重所以我們要禁但是又沒有依照打詐條例把他納管"},{"start":389.582,"end":417.114,"text":"然後突然用了一個在豆腐一夜市詐欺網頁的打詐條例42條這根本法律適用錯誤啊我們為什麼要納管LINE要納管Google要納管Meta因為上面詐騙的訊息太多了嘛所以賦予他們義務我告訴你上面有詐騙的訊息你要移除喔你如果不移除我會處罰你喔"},{"start":419.588,"end":446.745,"text":"但是所有的這些義務的要求全部都建立在一個前提上這個網路廣告平台業者必須要被公告納管納管進來了以後你必須要依照打詐條例符合這些配合打詐的要求你如果不配合我接下來啟動法律效果罰你錢啊採取各式各樣法律授權的手段啊"},{"start":447.981,"end":457.984,"text":"但是我現在看到內政部在做這件事情是自己完全不守法第一個第一個他沒有納管啊我們要請他來他就不理我們啊對嘛請你回去看法條好不好你如果覺得他有納管的必要"},{"start":470.188,"end":487.435,"text":"我們的行政院我們的主管機關該做什麼把他公告成為納管的範圍你必須要遵守你如果不遵守接下來會發生ABCDE打詐條例寫得很清楚了但我的書發部根本沒有納管他"},{"start":488.911,"end":514.046,"text":"所以根本沒有去看29條的法律構成要件然後我再帶您看一次網路廣告平台業者依照打炸條約27條利用網際網路於中華民國領域內提供網路廣告服務且達一定規模適用本條例的規定那覺得小紅書規模很大有達到這個規模那你就應該要公告"},{"start":515.066,"end":539.861,"text":"全項一定規模的計算基準由數位經濟相關產業主管主管定之那就速發部要公告啊你也沒有公告把他納管然後你就說他上面詐騙很多然後就限制他然後你限制他引用的條文所以我剛才問你回到你們所引用條文的42條 42條當初"},{"start":542.974,"end":569.094,"text":"當初速發部的次長現在速發部的部長我在審法案的時候他說明的很清楚啊說第一個他必須要涉及到詐欺犯罪所以我才說那個網頁本身被你block住的那個網頁本身他必須要是詐欺犯罪的主體他必須要是詐欺犯罪的主體他封鎖的是詐騙網站"},{"start":570.964,"end":598.445,"text":"他不是在封鎖網路廣告平台業者上面有詐騙廣告這是兩回事因為知識體大我一定要講清楚如果可以用42條直接封鎖網路廣告平台業者直接封鎖網路廣告平台業者那打詐條例29條以下的規定形同俱文"},{"start":599.568,"end":619.033,"text":"因為219條規定的那麼繁複幹嘛還要公告納管還要遵守一定的程序還要罰錢不用啊42條帝王條款網路廣告平台業者我不公告納管也沒有關係我只要覺得"},{"start":620.185,"end":648.443,"text":"你上面有詐騙的廣告我直接用42條封這絕對不是打岔條例當初立法上面的設計42條如果可以拿來對付廣告平台業者的話那29條以下的規定形同具穩通通都不需要了現在我很狐疑啦內政部在做這個決定以前在做這個決定以前"},{"start":649.522,"end":674.815,"text":"有跟法務部或者是速發部會商過嗎有嗎我們有在其他的場合上開會在哪裡開會在會議紀錄可以給我嗎沒辦法因為這是沒有關係你就告訴全台灣民眾你們在哪裡開會因為我很詫異啦內政部如果看不懂打詐條例或許情有可原"},{"start":675.575,"end":692.747,"text":"如果連法務部都看不懂 那就知識體大請問在什麼地方徵詢過法務部的什麼官員我們在行政院的時候有開會討論過這個部分然後法務部的代表有來 那個法務部的參事今天有來嗎來請參事請法務部參事內政部打造條例42條這樣適用 法務部是贊成的嗎"},{"start":705.68,"end":724.235,"text":"我真的很驚訝報告委員因為我們今天是法治司列席我所接觸到的公文我是沒有看到有這樣一個函詢的公文沒有這樣函詢的公文就函詢的公文我是沒有看到但是我剛剛問的問題意思你應該聽得清楚嗎你應該聽得懂吧是您聽得懂嗎"},{"start":725.71,"end":749.932,"text":"我有很認真在聽不過這部分涉及到主管機關對法令的解釋解釋上當然如果有些疑義的話可能還是要回歸跟主管機關之間的對話所以法務部是不便表示意見就對了就這一題的話我覺得還是要看主管機關跟委員之間的對話會比較好這不是主管機關跟我的對話台灣是法治國家"},{"start":751.578,"end":779.796,"text":"法律一生效具有普遍全面適用性這個是政府跟人民的對話現在連人民都看不懂了連人民都看不懂 打炸條例42條可以這樣用喔哇 我的老天啊那42條可以這樣用 29條以下全部都廢了啦42條是超級帝王條款FB LINE GOOGLE29條以下都不要看啦42條以後只要"},{"start":781.328,"end":804.352,"text":"在那個網路平台頁折上面有詐欺的廣告在上面我直接用四十二條就屏蔽了什麼時候打在條例賦予主管機關這樣的權限因為剛剛部長說他們有在其他的場合徵詢法務部的意見啊我聽了這是大驚失色啊這是法務部的專業意見啊這個可能要再跟部長確認齁沒有關係你就回去確認沒有關係你就回去確認嘛"},{"start":812.364,"end":830.698,"text":"就回去確認啊因為剛剛部長說有在其他場合遇到法務部有交換意見啊那我非常的詫異啊是不是可以請你回去的時候轉呈部長回去問一下法務部什麼時候什麼人表達過這樣的法律意見知識體大非常嚴重因為我現在是依法論法"},{"start":836.437,"end":850.793,"text":"我沒有在搞什麼意識形態沒有在進行什麼政治操作當然我也不是什麼小紅書的代言人我自己根本沒有在用小紅書但是我接到很多人反應因為上面好像做很多的是彩妝嘛 化妝的嘛"},{"start":852.32,"end":879.61,"text":"可能都是一些比較我們的就是一些對化妝有興趣或者是其他什麼服飾有興趣的人在看的我自己是沒有用但是後來這個風波搞得這麼大我稍微把法條看一看在看了內政部的解釋我看了我只能夠說我就是大驚失色大驚失色 打詐條例當初在審議的時候一條一條做下來審是涉法不是這樣用的今天警政署有代表來嗎"},{"start":881.381,"end":901.762,"text":"來請任署的代表是誰告訴你們42條可以這樣用是哪一位法律專家告訴你們42條這樣用跟委員報告這個造房條例第42條就像剛剛委員您非常清楚所提到就是說其實所謂的一定規模我們這個前面的部分是依據造房條例27條公告列管的網路廣告平台業者"},{"start":902.423,"end":926.108,"text":"那因為在當初小紅書他每一個月獨立的訪客數只有42萬人是所以他沒有達到我們的這一個不是啊那我就看不懂啊所以跟您報告啊那你如果覺得他的詐欺規模很大很嚴重就公告納管啊所以我們在用的45條就是針對這個並沒有他未達規模沒有納管的我們的立法意志裡面42條規範的對象是詐欺網站還是"},{"start":931.53,"end":934.876,"text":"網路廣告平台業者我們現在是網路平台業者詐欺網站來看一下42條"},{"start":941.021,"end":967.071,"text":"為處理詐欺犯罪防制緊急案件及時防制民眾接觸什麼 詐欺網站所以你認為網路廣告平台業者只要上面有詐騙的訊息他就構成了詐欺網站是嗎 你的法律解釋是這樣嗎跟委員解釋一下 我們是說當初我們的立法意思當初是說為了要防止民眾去接觸詐欺網站所以不管是司法警察機關或者是各目的市團機關就是說"},{"start":968.371,"end":987.369,"text":"只要是有緊急案件的狀況就有機制處理的必要就會通知網際網路接取服務提供者但是你完全沒有回答問題啊請你不要看著你的稿再念因為我請教你的問題你現在手上背的稿完全沒有辦法回應問題啊"},{"start":988.61,"end":1001.698,"text":"你不要在那邊裝忙讓在看這個直播的人覺得說好像你講的很有道理但是大家仔細一聽發現你在念稿根本沒在回答問題剛剛你講的緊急性必要事和要件聽得懂"},{"start":1002.509,"end":1030.306,"text":"要防止炸雞的目的大家聽得懂可以採取的措施大家聽得懂但是我現在跟你在討論的是規範的課題42條規範的課題當初在立法的時候處理的是炸雞網站什麼叫炸雞網站這個網站從頭到尾都在炸雞就你們在抓的所謂一夜市的網站那本身就是犯罪行為他是犯罪行為人的犯罪工具那現在什麼叫網記"},{"start":1032.248,"end":1048.95,"text":"廣告平台業者FB是嘛LINE是嘛Google是嘛他們在上面有人在上面刊登一些東西廣告上面有詐欺的訊息這是兩件不一樣的事耶"},{"start":1051.481,"end":1076.247,"text":"42條用的是詐欺網站不是網路平台業者所以我很好奇誰告訴警政署我們針對網路廣告平台業者可以用42條的這是我的問題因為法條白紙黑字那個你可以看一下螢幕你可以看一下螢幕那個法條的文字我怕你忘記我還把他列在上面給你們看誰告訴你可以用在"},{"start":1077.72,"end":1103.575,"text":"網路廣告平台業者上的因為我們是同時是因為他是詐欺網頁詐欺網站所以我們會令我們是讓令他提供接取服務的提供者同時要做停止解析或者去限制接取所以我們是在講是說這個是網路平台業對你在看上面就寫詐欺網站所以我就問你一題嘛你們42條的解釋這個詐欺網站包括"},{"start":1107.012,"end":1120.855,"text":"網路廣告平台業者是嗎你如果這樣子解釋的話我跟你講要出大事了不是不是那問題來啦你除非說整個小紅書就是詐欺網站否則你怎麼屏蔽"},{"start":1121.994,"end":1145.903,"text":"你認為小紅書整個就是詐欺網站嗎?整個小紅書就是詐騙行為人在進行詐騙用的網頁嗎?是嗎?報告員我們現在針對是街道檢舉跟以及有受理報案的詐欺的網頁去做停職解析先停一下喔所以你現在是小紅書上面只涉及到詐欺的停職解析還是整個小紅書的停職解析?"},{"start":1147.366,"end":1171.461,"text":"因為針對他的去接取的這些的提供者我們會一併的會去做這方面的一個體制解析對不起你沒有跟限制接取你沒有回答我的問題如果按照你今天的解釋可以成立的話那FB上面啦只要有詐欺廣告整個FB你都可以用42條屏蔽耶這是天大地大的事耶當初打詐條例就不是這樣設計的啊"},{"start":1172.955,"end":1183.364,"text":"所以我一直在問你們啊你們在動用這個條文的時候到底請教了什麼法律專家什麼法律主管機關告訴你們打詐條例42條可以這樣用啊這是我的問題誰提出這個專業的看法42條如果給你們警政署這麼大的權利啊那嚇死人啊真的嚇死人啊"},{"start":1199.525,"end":1222.482,"text":"那速發部幹嘛要公告遺體並規模才要納管不用啊大大小小的任何即使不是炸機網站之本身即使是廣告平台業者上面有炸機的訊息我就可以用42條屏蔽我再說一次啊 打炸條例從來沒有給你們這樣的權限"},{"start":1224.042,"end":1241.251,"text":"打詐條例從來沒有給你們這樣的權盈線我要拜託警政署你們回去你們回去好好再看一看當初打詐條例在研擬的過程當中在研擬的過程當中42條是這樣用的我完全不敢相信42條絕對不是這樣用的"},{"start":1248.612,"end":1275.386,"text":"因為42條如果可以這樣用我再說一次29條以下的規範形同句文毫無意義那現在出了這樣的事情你們引用了錯誤的法條把自己的權限擴張到這麼大那新聞已經鬧成那麼大了連總統都出來力挺了連總統都出來力挺喔我看賴清德總統應該也是沒看過法條啦相信你們"},{"start":1276.348,"end":1282.071,"text":"現在出了這麼大的包接下來要怎麼收拾你們自己回去好好想一想"},{"start":1283.82,"end":1305.465,"text":"真的你們自己回去好好想一想我再次建議你們回去好好看一看42條當初怎麼擬出來的包委員可能有所誤會我們就是針對我們所蒐集到受理報案的詐欺網頁會喊給TWNIC去做這個停止解析所以我常常問你嘛所以整個小紅書在你的定義裡面他就是詐欺網頁是嗎他是詐欺網站嗎是嗎是嗎"},{"start":1311.587,"end":1327.097,"text":"我們基本上就是依照這個規定去做停滯解析你就不要再強制多立了啦你就回答一個問題嘛整個小紅書在警政署的眼中是一個詐欺網站是符合42條構成要件的詐欺網站是嗎是這樣解釋的嗎"},{"start":1328.996,"end":1338.463,"text":"是12條當初的立法 意思是這樣嗎我告訴你啦熱狠 熱狠沒有 沒有關係你回去世界上各個國家哪一個國家為了打詐給我們的警察機關這麼大的權利哪一個國家可以讓你這樣子解釋不要去栽贓齁說我們不打詐"},{"start":1357.793,"end":1383.078,"text":"打詐打得很兇啦!班委員這個真的是誤會我們其實不是光小紅書我們在Meta那個IG我們只要是你有涉及詐欺的網頁我們都會含蓄給TW進行這個停止解析的動作所以呢你講那個部分我們其實事實上沒有關係啦你可以繼續開記者會自言自語我直詢的point我相信有看的人"},{"start":1384.332,"end":1395.26,"text":"完全都catch到了我也不要浪費大家的時間那你們就回去好好想一想這樣子字義的解釋法條擴全到這種程度接下來你們要怎麼收拾就好謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接下來請"}]}},{"id":"166319","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166319","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0daf453c19134c325129e80178479e3604f1120d908022d4d6511449ee88a32a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:12:21 - 11:20:32","影片長度":"00:08:11","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員許智傑等38 人擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。\n二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等 18 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還有我們議會同仁 請我們內政部部長"},{"start":12.442,"end":33.467,"text":"委員好 博長你好 博長針對今天宗教基本法的草案本席在這有提議兩個面向因為立法院法治局已經對宗教基本法提出了肯定的意見我們還是尊重裡面宗教的平等與宗教的自由"},{"start":35.107,"end":60.22,"text":"尤其整個的提升才能在國際的規範轉換具體可操作的制度也能提升台灣人權上的國際形象那我在這邊我整個資料來看都還沒看到行政院的版本那現在我本身也知道我們部長這邊你對這個草案的支持是怎樣"},{"start":61.065,"end":76.264,"text":"具體的方向 請部長來做說明好 謝謝委員大部分的委員大概就是沒有分任何的黨派色彩大家都關心宗教團體應該能夠納入我們的法律的系統裡面來管理"},{"start":77.105,"end":93.905,"text":"那但是就我們的理解我希望說未來對於宗教團體啦採取的是低度的管理你只要不觸犯其他的法律的話應該都比較好讓宗教可以自由的實現我們在民主社會裡面的這個信仰的自由"},{"start":94.526,"end":119.172,"text":"那所以這樣的方向的話呢提出來我比較會認為說我們是採取用法律案的方式而不是基本法的方式因為基本法的方式的話第一個我們會認為基本法現在提出來兩個都三個基本法裡面可能對於這個憲法法條三個法條裡面要在統整不是那麼容易那如果是法律的話譬如說宗教團體對於他們現在的這個勸募"},{"start":122.213,"end":140.441,"text":"或者是接受現金要不要管理還有他們現在所在地尤其是比較多是在山坡地的部分的話要不要符合山坡地的保育的條例那另外一個是因為歷史的嚴格太久了比如說七八十年前那個地方的山坡地的保育並沒有規範說不可以蓋廟"},{"start":141.241,"end":160.841,"text":"那為什麼現在說它變成是違法那這個部分可能是當時的法律在制定的過程當中沒有那麼嚴謹所以我們要符合新的法律然後不要抵觸到原來舊的歷史上面的一個演變的過程當中那就需要個案來管理"},{"start":161.294,"end":184.731,"text":"那既然個案來管理的話 就中央跟地方政府都要能夠一起坐下來講 會比較好譬如說地木的變更 山坡地它是不是有比較強固的建築因為我們不是為了管而管 我們是希望它是為了安全而安全我們是這種心情 不是為了要跟你管 也不是為了叫你要落水絕對不是這個意思 但是你要能夠公開跟透明"},{"start":185.231,"end":202.507,"text":"像現在不管是監督寺廟條例或者是財團法人或是這樣子的其他的法人就是希望你不一定要跟政府來報你的財務報表雖然有些團體尤其是基督教或天主教的教團他們會按照原來的母國裡面的規範他們要跟那個政府來報稅"},{"start":203.548,"end":232.248,"text":"但是如果你在信徒代表大會裡面你公開你的財務也是另外一種透明的方向那這樣子就慢慢慢慢把它導入正軌但是這個需要時間大廟有大廟可以比較快但是小廟有小廟有困擾所以我們會針對這個部分不希望就一部法令就是把所有的全部管在一起那這樣子一定到後來會比較多的漏洞這個不是我們帶多的問題而是整合上出現相當多的困擾"},{"start":232.988,"end":261.462,"text":"那當然委員會說整合有困擾也要整合啊那我們會來努力好 謝謝部長因為這針對部長你剛才講的山坡地因為過去有很多市廟都在山坡地裡面建立市廟所以我們過去我推動宗教自然的名義登記不動產的暫行條例針對這一點因為我們到明年六月就到期了那是不是能再向我們國土法展現六年"},{"start":262.324,"end":266.062,"text":"因為我們現在申請的有2000多件那申請的"},{"start":267.028,"end":293.491,"text":"那個案件比例還不到五成那未來是不是協助因為很多都是寫表過去都是借名登記那借名登記應該說很多他的三款的問題跟他的董事會有的算委員會造成很多糾紛變成說在這個部分也拜託說補充是不是研究說他的暫省條例是不是可以再延長"},{"start":294.59,"end":297.545,"text":"跟國土計劃法一樣 延長到六年"},{"start":299.128,"end":328.768,"text":"報告委員 那個委員也是在召委的時候把上一次的展延 已經展延了但是這兩年來我給委員報告就是說這兩年來提出的家數跟前兩年差很多前兩年提出的家數有800家那現在延長兩年以後只剩下114家所以我們會針對沒有辦法展延的 會去瞭解一下狀況來確定一下下次要不要繼續展延"},{"start":329.608,"end":337.013,"text":"因為申請的人越來越少就表示說沒辦法沒辦法 大家的國家做展演也沒辦法解決他們的問題"},{"start":339.744,"end":352.255,"text":"現在是 尤其我們的宗教師這群人要怎麼來協助在寺廟因為有很多時候 年久 已經很久不接轉了我們要怎麼認定 要怎麼做協助 這是最重要的因為後面都是這個問題所以你說會做成過去寺廟的問題 我們政府也已經提供改革"},{"start":363.644,"end":373.852,"text":"很多這個問題所以說在未來全部改革的我們要怎麼去協助畢竟這是都大家共同的事對 委員 我想你在宗教團體裡面真是尊重但是我們在那個所做的這個統計"},{"start":381.278,"end":386.884,"text":"沒有議員申請的 269 斤沒有正常運作的 180 斤沒辦法提出證明的 230 斤沒有連繫的 159 斤我相信這幾天所提出的廟宇大家廟宇有位置"},{"start":400.117,"end":418.392,"text":"大概就是沒辦法可以解決了因為他根本就沒有意願或是不可以做這是一種其他的部分我們就把它排除嘛然後意願的資料不接轉的這要怎麼解決我剛才說的部分就是這樣就是說他如果要繼續提出行情我們來倒三天"},{"start":418.832,"end":429.08,"text":"這兩宗只剩下一八十四斤過去兩宗是八百斤這表示說我剛才說的這就表示說沒辦法透過戰刑條例解決他的問題有時候他就沒意願 沒聯絡 已經沒有運作了這就把我們消毒掉所以現在如果有需要 我們會再考慮但是如果不需要"},{"start":444.151,"end":467.482,"text":"我跟地方政府再問清楚,如果不需要,我是認為暫行條例會回去,作用就不夠大了好,拜託我們相關單位大家去了解如果單獨的問題,就像我說的,例如歷史、工業問題,山坡地,或是前法跟後法適用的問題或者是其他相關的行政命令可以幫忙處理的,我們會幫忙處理"},{"start":468.883,"end":483.713,"text":"因為有些縣市地方政府確實很積極在幫忙但是有些縣市地方政府都放在那裡所以我們會幫忙 會較早所以如果有這種個案請你隨時跟我們通知 我們會來協助剩下半年嘛 我們就盡量來幫忙也要你來負責好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝吳啓明委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"166318","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166318","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c001954decd764e58e129e80178479e3604f1120d908022d4d6511449ee88a32a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:02:03 - 11:12:13","影片長度":"00:10:10","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員許智傑等38 人擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。\n二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等 18 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我們請內政部劉部長還有行政院人權及轉型正義處廖副處長好 請上單位 謝謝徐議員好 部長好"},{"start":16.345,"end":43.881,"text":"部長 台灣是一個宗教多元而且自由的一個社會喔那尤其宗教團體長期在穩定人心、心辦這個慈善還有教育文化上其實有很大的貢獻大家都很有目共睹喔那我想現在我們看一下我們的這個國家的法治環境喔你可以看一下對於宗教自由的保障真的足夠嗎我們自稱是宗教多元信仰自由但是在法律制度上就停留在20世紀"},{"start":44.821,"end":62.678,"text":"同一個宗教可能有三種身份三種主管機關三種法律效果那財產登記呢一亂再亂稅務標準各自解讀法律地位更是模糊不清這種情況不但會影響宗教團體的治理也可能會侵害到宗教的自由跟平等所以請問部長"},{"start":63.639,"end":92.058,"text":"以台湾信仰人口最多的佛教跟道教的寺庙管理他们的法源这个依据是监督寺庙条例所以本席要先请教这个部长您知道这个是什么时候制定的法律吗18年距离现在非常久民国几年18年那请问一下部长你知不知道这个民国18年的时候我们中华民国的政府是定都在哪里不在台湾"},{"start":92.654,"end":118.17,"text":"就定都在南京嗎是嗎所以在南京的中山林我們可以看到那一年中山林剛剛蓋好那也是我們國父孫安先生剛好這個入葬南京中山林的時間這已經是100多年前了那我們現在還在用民國18年制定的法律管理寺廟事實上是非常的離譜所以現在行政院的這個也今天有請這個人權及轉型正義處的副處長來備詢說"},{"start":122.032,"end":136.684,"text":"行政院已經要制定反歧視法了所以不需要宗教基本法那副處長可以說明一下嗎為什麼已經可以就是因為制定反歧視法所以不需要宗教基本法這是什麼意思"},{"start":137.384,"end":160.355,"text":"我們目前在研擬當中的反歧視法草案那把宗教信仰這個特徵呢也列入禁止歧視的特徵但是在我們的書面報告當中也有提到並不是說我們這是為了落實宗教自由的保障跟平等不歧視的原則那我們並沒有提到說因為有反歧視法的規定所以宗教基本法是不是就不需要制定"},{"start":160.595,"end":167.3,"text":"所以你們也不反對這個制定宗教基本法嗎只是你們會在另外再有一個這個反歧視法嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":168.594,"end":193.285,"text":"宗教紀念法這部分我們尊重主管機關的權責還有各位委員的審議但是就是反歧視法這邊呢其實就是在宗教方面是把它列入禁止歧視的特徵那再請教一下部長剛剛我們有提到的就是說這個是在將近100多年前民國18年制定的有監督寺廟條例那請問部長您認為用這樣子的一個制定監督寺廟條例"},{"start":194.235,"end":201.193,"text":"又18年前民國18年100多年前的這個法令來來管理現在的那個台灣的鐘廟您覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":204.154,"end":231.175,"text":"我想是這樣子那個不合時宜的地方我們會改進所以我們很多解釋的法令在18年之後我們在內政部裡面的很多包括有些暫行條例就是跟著它一直在修正也就是說現在很多不同的宗教裡面的需求的話如果不適合譬如說徐委員已經看到我認為以現在台灣的這個社會大概沒有辦法把監督寺廟條例這個監督兩個字擺進去"},{"start":233.957,"end":254.296,"text":"然後還有我們也不能講寺廟通常我們都講宗教或是不同的廟宇所以我們未來會朝著這個方向但是是在法律面的一個修正而不是那個基本法部長其實針對這個部分為什麼宗教界是期望說立法院能夠早點"},{"start":255.877,"end":279.437,"text":"早日制定這個基本法主要就是因為在108年的時候財團法人的這個財團法人法的立法過程中宗教界會擔心政治的手深入宗教所以他們才會請求立法院要禁訴立法那尤其是我們這次所提出的宗教基本法的草案版本跟過去很大的不同他目前有6條而且是具體化了我們中華民國憲法第7條"},{"start":281.198,"end":299.478,"text":"跟第13條的抽象保障所以保障所以部長在不改變和憲法核心保障平等跟信仰自由的前提之下政府要如何處理宗教團體自治跟國家利益如果公共利益有衝突的狀況之下我們政府要如何管理"},{"start":300.7,"end":323.042,"text":"在現在的現行的條文當中完全了解徐委員在詢問的焦點這就是我們在整合上碰到比較大的困難包括我們其實每一年都有請一些學者教授提供給我們一些意見但是我們真正把它變成一個法律來要管所有的宗教確實是很大的困擾"},{"start":323.923,"end":342.32,"text":"因為剛剛委員也提到譬如說行政院的人權處要做反歧視法那反歧視法他可能會排除宗教因為宗教他是個比較心靈的或是精神方面的部分但是我很清楚這個要要建立一個宗教基本法確實很困難他也確實要很大"},{"start":342.66,"end":349.97,"text":"很多的問題需要克服但是我們也不能因為難就不做所以為了所以為了妥善的管理這個各項的我們現在所面臨到的問題那所以我們是認為應該先有基本法那我們再來制定執法"},{"start":358.962,"end":387.627,"text":"然後妥善的來管理我們所有的相關的問題這樣才是根本之道而不是遇到困難我們就退縮應該是要用什麼樣的方式來去處理所以這個部分請部長針對我們宗教基本法能夠再多一些的這個關注跟多一些的時間去處理那當然我想這個部分這個大家沒有辦法在今天有這樣怎麼樣的結論但是我覺得充分的討論然後盡快的制定我們的這個宗教基本法是有這個必要性的"},{"start":388.307,"end":402.906,"text":"如果委員有這樣提的話如果在立法院裡面會有不同的公聽會然後也邀請不同的這個宗教團體來表達他們的立場那我們在收整意見會更多元因為全台灣各地"},{"start":403.086,"end":424.78,"text":"我們到各地縣市地方政府 包括民政單位 我想委員會非常清楚民政單位的意見跟中央的意見也不一定完全一樣這是我們碰到很大的整合商業的困擾對 希望部長能夠針對這個部分 中央基本法的部分多一點的時間來辦 不管是公聽會什麼 讓大家能夠多一些的討論但是也不能拖 因為我們不能再用一百多年前的法律來去管理現在的寺廟"},{"start":426.221,"end":439.329,"text":"另外再請教部長一個問題就上週三大陸將實名的台灣詐欺犯以小三通的方式遣返金門請問部長目前兩岸的共打機制是不是已經終止或處於失能的狀況"},{"start":441.532,"end":466.825,"text":"報告委員 兩岸共打機制的主管機關除了我們警政單位以外 也有法務部那我只能回應警政機關的部分那我們兩岸共打的一個樹木制其實還有而且人員上面的溝通跟交流還在那上禮拜他們這樣丟爆了10名的我們的詐欺犯回來的時候請問內政部還有像移民署 警政署是什麼時候接獲通知的"},{"start":467.55,"end":470.612,"text":"請問一下 事前沒有獲得完整通報的原因是什麼"},{"start":491.128,"end":508.362,"text":"我們正在了解當中那什麼時候可以了解清楚呢報告委員有的時候資訊上的獲得不在我們我方但是我們的刑事單位已經有跟他們中央單位來了解因為像他如果未來他持續的像你說第二批的第三名"},{"start":509.202,"end":532.775,"text":"因為金門巨收因為是第二次金門巨收他叫他搭飛機回來其實這樣的問題的話未來可能層出不窮所以這樣的一個共打機制就是因為現在兩岸的關係這麼的緊張所以說共打機制是不是已經形同虛設未來面對這樣的狀況要怎麼處理可能部長要好好的來去思考有的時候發生這個問題並不在我方的共打機制"},{"start":533.795,"end":561.421,"text":"那我剛有跟委員報告過就是說就我粗略的了解啦還沒有經過證實又跟委員實際上來講就是說他們的中央單位並不了解地方單位為什麼會突然在這個監管這個所謂的通緝犯或者是涉及詐欺的人有的一年就放出來了兩年就放出來然後就直接送到他們覺得最近的這個港口或者最近的機場那當然了我們知道這些人都是台灣人"},{"start":562.523,"end":579.979,"text":"那既然領有中華民國身份證的話,我們的移民署不可能不讓他們回來,這我們的重點在這邊。那當時他為什麼就突然送到那個港口或送到機場去,我們正在了解那個狀況,只知道說中央的這個公安單位對於地方的公安單位突然有這樣的舉措。"},{"start":581.941,"end":604.236,"text":"因為時間已經到了所以我想說我本席今天要表達就是當這些程序繞過或者失效的時候會衍生什麼樣的問題就是司法管理的問題跟國家安全的漏洞所以這是非常的重要所以說可能請部長還有法務部這邊都要好的正視這樣的問題我們現在在那個兩岸共打機制上面這方面會加強溝通好 謝謝好 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相關立法要聆聽各界的意見但目前從內政部的態度看起來"},{"start":174.406,"end":202.252,"text":"是所有部會裡面態度最強硬的而且有先入為主這個立場同時也是最不尊重朝野立委職權的部會希望這一點我們部長這邊好好來檢討跟反省接下來有一件事情我要跟部長來討論我們台東宗教文化傳承議題繼續跟內政部這邊來反映袁小姐最著名的宗教文化活動就是北天燈南風炮東韓單以及西起龜那其中台東的炸韓單不僅"},{"start":203.28,"end":227.692,"text":"超過60年的傳承 更是全國僅有我想這不單是台東人記憶中最重要的傳統習俗那這幾年在我們台東縣政府的推動之下規模也逐漸的這個擴大成為著名的這個宗教文化觀光盛事那在我們內政部這個台灣宗教文化地圖的官網上面有特別提到也介紹到台東玄武堂這個炸寒丹我相信書長也要了解"},{"start":228.692,"end":252.648,"text":"那這樣 本席藉由這次機會我們跟內政部來反映特別是我們宗教師就是目前台東選武黨的詐騙單台東縣政府已經公告為台東縣民俗文化資產但他一直想要申請這個登錄國家請這個無形文化資產卻一直卡關那根據本席的了解這個登錄的主責機關是文化部但是其實詐騙單的活動"},{"start":253.769,"end":278.634,"text":"它其實橫跨了宗教跟文化兩個層面那尤其這些宮廟都是登記在我們內政部底下嘛所以這兩個部會我們是不是能好來溝通跟合作我想不是你文化部說的就算那目前我們相關的登錄規定上都需要也像記憶啊文化知識啊這個上面的這個認證的限制這個對於許多宮廟來說都非常的有難度"},{"start":279.631,"end":303.453,"text":"這不是代表說他們沒有這樣的內涵是這些宮廟的人員可能不知道什麼申請認證就像早上有幾個立委提到他很多東西他不知道要怎麼申請所以加上認證的標準叫做是針對這個傳統記憶跟宗教活動的概念不能完全的來比照因此我想要請內政部的宗教師以我們台中在選舞堂設這個範例來看"},{"start":305.267,"end":331.777,"text":"我們跟文化部來溝通來討論在未來申請國家級的這個五行文化資產上面是不是能夠以更簡正便民的方式來申請要讓我們國家的力量一起來守護全台這個僅有的宗教文化活動這個是不是能請部長來允諾那也請相關單位在一個月以內跟文化部來討論研議並提供本辦公室一份報告輸入"},{"start":334.431,"end":348.185,"text":"謝謝委員的關心事實上台東這個炸寒單這是全國非常知名的也是吸引每年非常多的宗教的一個觀光客這是一個我們有形的不管是五喜有形的一個真的是很好的一個活動"},{"start":349.426,"end":354.211,"text":"所以這次也跟委員報告我們在宗教師的立場既然是寺廟辦活動不管是文化部我們會協同文化部一起來推動這活動讓它更具有特色至於委員剛才有交代的他在登錄的時候碰到的一個瓶頸相信我們會來跟文化部來了解到底是不是文化部來再跟委員來做一個具體的說明這我們來協助"},{"start":374.898,"end":388.167,"text":"對 其實本市問過這個廟方這邊 他們一直說我一定能簽 一定能簽不會他可能用其他的方式所以這個我們站在內政部主管機關的立場我們來協助廟宇來做這個跨部會的討論讓這件事情可以行"},{"start":390.709,"end":407.999,"text":"我想這個是很多台東人也期待我們也希望說這樣的文化活動當然隨著時空環境的改變有一些陋習我們要來修正但是這個精神我們希望能夠延伸下去這屬於我們政府的理由來倒三缸這順暢屬於我們來倒三缸部長是不是可以來請"},{"start":410.301,"end":434.078,"text":"協助這件事情 但責成教安部會我們市長有提到就是我們會跟文化部一起來協助齁那還有委員剛剛有提到說好像我們法務部的寫法跟那個我們自己內政部不一樣那法務部的代表這邊您可不可以問他一下那另外我致歉一下就是說因為我們是要宗教諮詢委員的每個委員都問過才會把它寫到書面報告裡面所以會比較晚送到大院來 這個請委員能夠見諒"},{"start":436.659,"end":449.724,"text":"我們都提到這件事情我們真的希望說讓大家能夠更充分來討論這件事情那當然發生的事情就發生我們未來我們可以改善的來改善因為這是我們整個委員會委員這是本縣我這個議會的標單啦那也謝謝部長跟市長的言諾謝謝謝謝黃建斌"}]}},{"id":"166316","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166316","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0259562d616642ff5129e80178479e3604f1120d908022d4de70ccf99090aa3605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:34:56 - 10:47:29","影片長度":"00:12:33","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員許智傑等38 人擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。\n二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等 18 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部長休息一下委員好"},{"start":26.84,"end":51.42,"text":"好 我要请教一下我们台湾的穆斯林人口已经超过30万人其中新住民还有一共占26万人是台湾社会中规模相当可观的一个族群我们穆斯林在台湾的生活面向包括就是饮食"},{"start":52.661,"end":80.622,"text":"祈禱清潔還有語言的社群知識對於其他族群有所差異我要請教一下我們林師長在內政部的宗教政策政策的定位中我們穆斯林這個族群的生活與宗教需求內政部是否認為說需要被重視還有在以保障你們的立場是為何"},{"start":82.731,"end":86.652,"text":"謝謝委員的關心因為我們在兩個禮拜前我們也特別拜訪了我們穆斯林協會的一個理事長與相關人員我們也跟他談到這個宗教對話包括他現在已經那個穆斯林他們特別有有機的那些食品他們在推我們有達成一個共識我們在宗教的輔導立場我們會積極來協助他們不管有多少人包括我們的宗教旅遊他們的宗教務也非常有特色"},{"start":111.816,"end":135.11,"text":"怎麼去結合他們一起來把他推出去這是我目前的一個來協助他們的一個方式我們知道但是我們是希望就是說我們內政部跟勞動部有沒有跨部會來去說協調這個機制啊確保就是在各類就是說公家場域或者私人的雇主"},{"start":135.79,"end":163.251,"text":"提供這樣子的空間真正能落實友善就是穆斯林的需求還有你們手中有沒有說全國的調查或者是就是需求的盤點在現在為止有沒有這個這個系統的統計的數據我們想要知道的各位報告那我們勞動部代表在這裡我們請他再來說明所以你們這邊沒有勞動費這邊有嗎"},{"start":167.309,"end":184.617,"text":"跟委員報告那基本上那個移工在台就是他的相關的一個生活照顧的部分是由雇主他必須要依照生活照顧計畫書來提供一些協助這樣子那我們生活照顧計畫書裡面有包括必須要尊重"},{"start":185.778,"end":205.019,"text":"這個就是移工他們本身的一個宗教信仰包括飲食飲食跟生活習慣的部分那這個部分呢我們都是落實在我們的雇主的一個生活計畫照顧計畫書裡面這樣那跨部會的部分呢如果說其他部會有需要我們相關的一個宣導或協助的部分呢我們會配合辦理以上"},{"start":205.639,"end":228.235,"text":"我們知道每一個部會都有我們要的現在我要的就是說你們有沒有全國調查他們的需求或者盤點有多少人有多少點就是我們國營事業還有公家的部門有沒有友善對穆斯林的飲食標準或者他們的做禮拜的地方能不能提出數據"},{"start":230.596,"end":252.357,"text":"不是說只是照顧 這個照顧都知道 人家知道你有照顧 有照顧要問你 沒照顧要問你 叫你問誰在你有照顧 才要知道說多少數據 多少的人 多少的需求我們要的是是這樣子的一個照顧 要有量或者是有需求 這樣子的意思啦有啊沒有"},{"start":255.866,"end":280.359,"text":"跟委員報告因為涉及到很多部位包括漁場的移工的問題包括照護譬如說居家照護的問題包括很多工廠的問題所以我們目前是沒有這個數據對我覺得是因為沒有照顧到也沒有保障到也沒有真正的重視所以我們需要你們重視所以目前就是因為我們知道說人口有30萬人"},{"start":282.68,"end":301.206,"text":"所以全國就是我們是現在就是清真寺我們有11間但是都在北部大量的穆斯林集機刷工業區 漁港 像你說的以及就是各個安置中心 收容所 還有就是培訓機構"},{"start":302.726,"end":328.637,"text":"這是沒有固定的一個祈禱空間啊所以我們就看到很多移工就是在階梯啊在就是說臨時空地做禮拜或者競爭室的不足的缺口所以最後造成就是自己自己就是募集補上或者是要很多地方已經都發生很多人就是有人就是提供空間這個空間呢是"},{"start":332.361,"end":358.016,"text":"是公有的因為有人跟我們反映中部就有公有的所以他們就是被騙了把這個公有的地他們就蓋個鐵皮屋在裡面做禮拜但是後來就是被人家檢舉說是公有地你不能蓋所以他要租金又繳了繳的是這個人租給他的這個地蓋了花了全部的新住民移工自己募集的錢去蓋好"},{"start":358.516,"end":376.164,"text":"到最後全部拆 花了一百多萬這個都有啦所以我們希望說你們要要重視要有這樣子就是少數的種價我們希望說你們要有沒有這樣子的缺口啊盤點啊 需求啊這個就是我們今天要質詢的目的啦"},{"start":377.465,"end":395.077,"text":"謝謝委員跟委員報告其實我們都是歸各部地事業主管他們會做一個統計我們內政部的部分我們會針對我們中國佛教協會回教協會那些相關人員我們來跟他來協助他們如果需要他們需要我們內政部協助的地方我們會積極來協助"},{"start":397.194,"end":421.244,"text":"所以他們有需要積極的協助但是呢我覺得我們政府現在也有不同的點不只是說這是我們希望說在目前的空間不足我們也知道說有個點但是我們是宗教師還是這現在好像說只是他們需求你們來協助但是我們政府很注重這一塊重要就是在"},{"start":422.124,"end":446.95,"text":"我們國內很多的公共產業中是否有規劃就一致性的祈禱式因為他們都是在六日他們才能放假所以在工業區啊交通樞紐的地方啊或者是我們國營事業還有住宿還有就是一個公有的建物中是不是有提供這樣的空間啊不要說他們有需求"},{"start":451.232,"end":461.092,"text":"求助無門嘛所以才找我們來幫忙質詢幫忙去問說不是有有這個意願來去討論或者是協助這樣子的意思"},{"start":463.185,"end":487.813,"text":"跟委員報告因為宗教我們台灣有佛道教有各個宗教基於宗教平等其實我們都會來尊重他們因為太多宗教了這一點要跟委員特別報告所以我們會尊重他們我們現在是百分之百是我們是尊重所有的宗教但是就是我們為什麼要提出是穆斯林他是因為少數"},{"start":490.175,"end":508.897,"text":"所有的宗教我們像我們佛教我本身就是佛教我們台灣全台有很多新住民就是信佛教所以我們就有現有的廟啊佛堂啊我們就去參拜但是因為我們台灣沒有現有的公共的宗教場合"},{"start":510.12,"end":532.566,"text":"所以我們才要提出來去問這個問題如果是所有的宗教都有現有的我們火車站還有高鐵站還有就是我們機場為什麼要設一個小小的空間讓他們去做禮拜呢就是表示我們政府很重視宗教的禮儀還有宗教的"},{"start":533.892,"end":557.564,"text":"的少數才會設這個特別給他們用嘛但是因為這個空間比較小他們要禮拜六禮拜天才放假他們來的話就會擠在一起所以他們才會需求說有沒有說我們要去討論的是說我們希望我們政府跟各個宗教團體來有沒有這樣子的研究的需求讓"},{"start":559.085,"end":582.871,"text":"北中南都有這個空間讓他們可以做禮拜我們現在就是說宗教的尊重還有保障還有讓他們有一個地方我們希望是說你要去盤點要去調查不是說我們針對這個宗教其他宗教不照顧完全沒有但是因為我們台灣也真真的"},{"start":583.511,"end":605.206,"text":"也去照顧這個宗教因為現有我們台灣沒有公用的地方所以變成他們個別他們就會自己來去就是找地方或者是因為做禮拜只有休禮拜六日所以他們的空間不夠所以他們也是有需要所以我們想要問的是說我們要找出"},{"start":606.167,"end":631.843,"text":"需求找出問題我們要來解決問題因為真正是有那麼多人的需求空間又那麼小所以我們希望說我們政府這邊有沒有說有一些我們多餘的空間或者我們政府的空間借給他們或者租給他們或者是友善的空間讓他們禮拜六日他們可以使用是這樣子的一個目標"},{"start":633.628,"end":650.126,"text":"對 不能說我們只要注重說我們現有的台灣的這個少數的我們宗教師這邊好像完全一問三不知這樣子會讓這個宗教感覺就是說你們真的沒有重視啦各位報告 其實我們不是一問三不知啦"},{"start":650.566,"end":663.948,"text":"因為事實上我知道委員非常關心這個議題我們跟中國佛教協會我們也在積極保持一個聯繫包括我們很多目的事業主管機關也非常重視所以剛才委員提到這個場所問題我們會跟目的事業主管機關我們來審慎來做一個研究跟委員報告希望我們就是審慎研究還有就是說把所有我們政府本來就設的或者是各個宗教他們都有的讓"},{"start":679.551,"end":696.208,"text":"更多人知道因為很多人都是剛過來或者沒有連接到宗教他們就沒有地方的話有時候他們就在空地在階梯在每個地方他自己做這樣子的話不懂的人會嚇到所以變成我覺得是說我們要求的就是"},{"start":696.929,"end":716.652,"text":"有這樣子的一個關心多保障他們讓他們有一個一個環境更好的因為他們真的不管飲食也要清潔也好他們的把他列入在他們的宗教的要求裡面所以他們是很嚴謹的所以我們政府才會設那麼多不同的"},{"start":717.205,"end":745.519,"text":"的公共場域讓他們來去做禮拜嘛所以我希望說我們市長這邊就跟各個國營也好私藝場域也好公共場域也好還有就是因為大部分他們都是家庭看護比較多所以他們是不是路途啊或者是就近啊用一個就是我們整個地圖整個地方讓他們有一個就是可以真的安靜又可以做禮拜的地方"},{"start":746.16,"end":753.533,"text":"對他們更有幫助 是這樣子的要求謝謝好 謝謝委員好 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不會叫什麼國因為有一個全世界的中國就是中華人民共和國所以你們就是自己跳進那個陷阱要勇敢表達中華民國的資金中華民國從1911年到今天還有12個國家相信我們是資金獨立的國家"},{"start":114.69,"end":139.445,"text":"台灣國沒本人的聲音所以不需要用這個錯誤的概念要勇敢 你可以說你台灣人你為什麼不敢說你中國人中華民國 你娘是中華民國的親戚你做的是中華民國的文化保障但是我們的優勢我們的競爭力就是因為中華制度沒感"},{"start":142.489,"end":171.529,"text":"他們的制度跟我們的制度完全不一樣 對不對所以要怎麼去追求和平 撇免戰爭就是大家可以競爭 也不要戰爭制度的競爭 我們的制度比較好啊我們這樣認定 我們要去競爭啊 讓大家了解啊你不是 都在想 一直想想到不行 他們比較好 我們比較壞你自己做事情 沒必要"},{"start":173.356,"end":196.899,"text":"中華民國是一個民主化 充分民主化所以有100%的自由 是不是是啊 對不對 是我們的優勢啊 是啊我們的年輕人 尊重自由 所以我們的年輕人很有創意啊所以我們的年輕人 病的年輕人 有超越他們的所在啊"},{"start":198.311,"end":212.282,"text":"而且有他們的優點,我們有我們的優點,為什麼我們年輕人不能跟年輕人競爭?要勇敢去競爭啊,不是小康小胖要製造戰爭嘛台灣中華民國一樣啊,我們有我們的優點,為什麼中華民國不可以跟我們說?開水合作都台灣,台灣你有沒有比我愛台灣?"},{"start":222.657,"end":229.179,"text":"我們小時候是不應該講台灣這兩年不知道你有記憶嗎?我們做小時候的事情都不應該講台灣電視公佈都不應該講台灣我們住在台灣都不應該講台灣這年時代都不應該講台灣我們住在台灣我們是台灣人不應該講台灣這是什麼事情"},{"start":250.126,"end":258.888,"text":"現在開始可以說了 但是問題是我從小就一直說有時候叫法國國會比較痛不是不能說 你有時候可以說但是不需要去用政治所以過去叫做白色的恐怖過去叫做威權你現在說比威權更威權 現在不能說中華民國沒必要啦"},{"start":277.389,"end":283.013,"text":"我們的優勢要提出,包括你的公共電視,對著社會要富裕、教育的義務和責任,不能隨波逐流,整天要做什麼,當然你很辛苦在經營。"},{"start":298.373,"end":325.107,"text":"台灣跟日本來做一個比較 災難跟經費完全都不能消費 主主行當然會降低那麼主主行降低呢 公共電視它富有社會 高有激動的責任這點我希望說 不需要去追究什麼的這沒法啦 無所不知 今天"},{"start":326.503,"end":334.862,"text":"在中華民國裡面如果你的公共電視可以對國民三省譬如國際省的議題"},{"start":338.582,"end":357.79,"text":"國際的思想包括科技的先進新科技的發明將來都能在第一時間透過公共集團內所有的媒體去做出對國民富有教育意義"},{"start":359.797,"end":379.516,"text":"會選拔那這樣就對了慢慢你的穩定在國民裡面對你的信心建立你的權威啊你說今天為了要做這個節目來配合什麼配合什麼我認為是去公共電視元素創立的意義的我不知道你怎麼看"},{"start":380.894,"end":391.264,"text":"現在覺得我們公安電視不教你這樣說的說要配合什麼政策那是以前的事情啦我看到你對社會教育的責任都在意識形態我公安電視的節目都是金鐘獎得很多這樣就沒意義啦"},{"start":400.253,"end":423.61,"text":"啊 你看 你又在做什麼 你不是還陷入那些古詩語裡面我的意思就是說 我的意思就是說對著世界新科技對著國際特殊 包括對著國際時俗包括台灣 包括中華 包括所有的新事物"},{"start":425.129,"end":438.143,"text":"親屬部都可以透過公共集團在快速的時間讓我們國的國民可以很清楚理解那麼了解國際 了解外部"},{"start":440.826,"end":465.898,"text":"主人可以去化解內部的矛盾和衝突不可以有太多的意識形態今天民進黨執政有它的意識形態兩黨和國民黨執政還有它的意識形態對這個社會的和解完全沒有幫忙這是我對你最大的期待啊你還要跳進去要拿多少獎獎是怎麼辦"},{"start":468.717,"end":494.048,"text":"沒意義啦 公共電視要忍受很多委屈你會忍受很多委屈 但是你做正確的事情可以讓國民對你的信任會提高雖然你過年中有比較委屈 有比較辛苦但是辛苦的事情沒有人要做我告訴你 大家都要做勤課的這樣就沒意思 委託你來做博鳥就沒意義了嘛 是不是這樣"},{"start":497.085,"end":509.492,"text":"是啊,所以在這裡,本身跟你說的風雄,我是希望你約束這個集團,讓他們做一個調整,讓他們提升,這沒什麼,我問你這個事情,其實是希望你做一個戰略性和風雄性、指標性的調整,這樣讓我們國的"},{"start":521.67,"end":542.502,"text":"公共電視的發電能,可以經常一直流,會跟我們不一樣,過去大家對公共集團的信心都不足,希望在你的端端之下,我們可以提出一個新的規劃,新的風雄,我不知道你能不能分析這種資料嗎?"},{"start":545.111,"end":547.652,"text":"我剛才提出未來對領導公共電視公共集團就本席剛才向你探討的這提出一個新的指標性的關鍵"},{"start":568.379,"end":572.825,"text":"一個月的時間你提供給我提供什麼東西 你給我說清楚一點"},{"start":576.275,"end":584.14,"text":"因為我聽不到 沒關係 我回去跟你的聯絡人說因為你說得很清楚 我就知道要給你什麼所以我告訴你 你不要動作聽不到 讓我一直聽 我一直說因為你的臉不太大"},{"start":598.49,"end":608.012,"text":"比較清楚一點的我給你回答沒關係啦我的主要不要亂回答的事因為我剛才說的每一點都有說出來是可能你沒辦法即時要再翻譯一遍啦沒關係我的主席我請外傭公司給你請教希望你一國未來對著未來公共電視發展可以支標性是不是可以這樣走我們可以再來探討好 感謝你好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":630,"end":632.007,"text":"好 謝謝謝龍介委員 部長請回座"}]}},{"id":"166290","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166290","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0fd0b544efb0c809f9ecb9f93c172c55119f30473e88220b30a24d4c92cf601975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:49:47 - 11:01:41","影片長度":"00:11:54","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「財政收支劃分法」7案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員郭國文等17人、委員賴瑞隆等19人、委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n(二)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等26人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例」2案：（僅詢答）\n(一)本院委員郭國文等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n 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陳副主席長部長早部長先就教你財政收支劃分法的問題我想立法院在12月5號依法否決財劃法的附議這是主院長"},{"start":27.187,"end":51.088,"text":"任内第八次的复议案遭否决也创下中华民国宪政史上的壮举根据宪法正修条文第三条第二项规定行政院对立法院的决议应接受而行政院却公开宣称没有必须执行的压力甚至强调不会也不能执行违法的法案"},{"start":52.708,"end":78.628,"text":"我想宪法并未赋予行政院择其所欲执行法律的权利行政院长身为我们最高的行政机关首长公开宣称拒绝执行挑战我国宪政体制的根本所以我要就教部长还有副主席长行政院公然抗拒立法院删除通过的法律你认同吗你们两位认同吗"},{"start":79.637,"end":86.085,"text":"跟委員報告 立法院三讀通過的法律後續有關憲政上的一些程序"},{"start":86.841,"end":102.353,"text":"在憲法上有所規定那對於11月14號三讀通過的財化法的再修正版那我們在附議裡面很清楚的提到就是說因為這樣的一個擴大釋出會讓中央政府必須再增加舉債2646億那再加上115年總預算必須要再舉債2992億的情況下他就違反了公債法的流量上限規定他是至愛難行因此行政院提出附議希望"},{"start":116.703,"end":120.927,"text":"我們立法院能夠再能夠審慎的再去考量這樣的一個事情那當然還有一關相關的補助性一般性的補助款跟計劃型的補助款相關的分配也有它的摯愛難行之處剛才您在尋找的時候已經歷次說明了很多你的一個看法"},{"start":137.498,"end":163.726,"text":"其實我想大家可以說各說其事當然我的想法很簡單就是部長還有主席長那到底現在是這種狀況之下法案已經三讀通過了你們是支持左院長在復議已經被否決之後然後你還繼續為他做政治背書認為即便法案三讀通過我們也不尊重立法院所通過的法律嗎"},{"start":167.843,"end":184.244,"text":"跟委員報告就是說就我們主計總處來說就是說我們就是依法行政那目前通過的版本主要是考慮到他違反了公共債務法所以因為我們不能違法所以目前就沒有辦法來執行"},{"start":185.626,"end":202.441,"text":"是 所以我剛才一直強調 各說其是從憲法的角度 行政院沒有拒絕立法院所刪除通過法律的這樣的一個行政舉措 它是不能抗拒的"},{"start":203.422,"end":228.229,"text":"你這樣根本就是違憲我想法律的位階是低於憲法之下既然憲法規定那麼清楚立法院三讀通過的法律就要去予以執行也沒有經過大法官解釋說這部法律是違憲的一個情況之下行政院可以抗拒嗎其實我個人看法是不可以所以行政院如果可以單方面認定法律違法而拒絕執行"},{"start":229.609,"end":245.275,"text":"這已經讓國家讓中華民國政府形成一個專制的政府是一個獨裁的政府而否決立法院依照多數民意所定的一個法案也否決了立法院制衡與監督的角色"},{"start":246.275,"end":259.393,"text":"所以我還是希望不管是財政部還是主計總署你們三思而行還是要依法行政依憲法來行政另外我想問一下財政部宣稱修法後補助款增加至5450"},{"start":264.479,"end":283.511,"text":"5455億元需超限舉債2646億元嘛超出我們年度的公共債務法的舉債上限導致這個債限破表就剛才你們一直強調的嘛所以我想請問就是說針對這些財務的推估啊我們是否有對外有完整的揭露"},{"start":284.432,"end":287.754,"text":"你這個推估有完整揭露嗎我們有詳細的說明第一個就是11月14號通過的這個財化法它的要求第一個中央統籌分配稅款其實在去年的通過以後那這一次的編列達到8800億"},{"start":299.5,"end":314.428,"text":"那又要求各縣市的一般性補助款以及計劃型補助款都不能減少那就是2501億2501億的一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款2954億所以整體加起來是一兆4329億數字是有出來了但是我想是部長這些數字是否有經過獨立的審計驗證"},{"start":322.637,"end":336.371,"text":"第一個統籌分配稅款這個部分我們在年初的時候就已經算出來了那但是有關一般性就是年中的時候不是年初抱歉那一般性補助款跟計畫性補助款這個是根據主總的計算你是有這個經過審計驗證出來的一個數字是不是"},{"start":340.425,"end":361.994,"text":"因為我們跟委員報告 主要就是說一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款它基本上都是一種延續性的計劃所以我們按照這個以往的這個經驗來推估算出這個總數所以是依照以往的經驗來推估啦所以我是希望說行政院啦 或者財政部 尤其是主計總署"},{"start":363.414,"end":377.88,"text":"你可否 你不是說依照經驗來推估但是實際上他這個要驗證 實際去驗證他所以可否將這些財務推估完整的揭露你是如何去依照過去的經驗來推估"},{"start":378.781,"end":379.461,"text":"我還是要強調最後的結論"},{"start":401.177,"end":418.122,"text":"行政院與財政部一再主張修法導致國家破產中央無法編預算你們的說法是這樣其實外界也一直認為說這樣的做法是刻意操弄財政黑洞與破產說但是財化法的修法核心我還是要再強調一下"},{"start":419.762,"end":440.935,"text":"財政收支劃分法它修法的核心目的是來調整中央與地方財源的不足就要落實財政民主與地方自決但是我們看到目前修法前確實許多縣市財政困難仍嚴重依賴中央一般及計畫性補助來穩定我們地方的一個財政困境所以"},{"start":442.055,"end":461.863,"text":"我還是希望部長跟主席長你們三思既然我們財務法現在已經三讀通過了讓它先實行一段時間如果有需要再去調未來有需要再調整的我們再來做相關的一個按照財政部的版本來做相關的一個審議還是讓它實行一段期間"},{"start":466.024,"end":490.032,"text":"現在請市長 阮市長部長跟副市長請回好 請阮市長市長 我們今天討論的有關國安基金規模的上限從五千萬變成一兆我們除了現在因為美國對等關稅算為塵埃落定所以我們國安基金在市場內過去有八次進場的紀錄是"},{"start":492.153,"end":510.748,"text":"那從簡報上這些數字上來看平均投入金額大概約445億投入的最短的天數第一次的一個五天只有五天而已以及這個第八次最長是275天一次是在2000年一次是在2022年"},{"start":513.035,"end":533.774,"text":"那次長你對外曾經提到希望像公股銀行借款的融資上限從2000億提高到7000億你對外曾經這樣說過這個不是我提的不是你提的沒關係但是我們股市的運作除了黑天鵝的因素外其實漲漲跌跌它很正常"},{"start":534.895,"end":556.399,"text":"很正常所以現在外資約在我們台股四成左右但是這些資金本來每天就是有進有出如果說怕這些外資會非常嚴重的影響股市那國安基金不是每天要進場嗎所以我要問次長為何需要提高高達我們進場平均值445億約15倍的資金金額"},{"start":561.628,"end":579.319,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在那個目前的可以用的金額在2000億這個是25年前那時候就訂了但是剛才委員也自己也提到就是說目前的我們的股市的規模不是規模"},{"start":581.46,"end":607.773,"text":"那麼那時候在89年的時候那時候大概是9.2兆那現在已經達到97兆所以成長10.5倍那這是一個那第二個外資當時是只有8.14%這個我都知道了其實我們講就是你現在要增加這個金額你要去依照去估算過去最適合的金額是多少"},{"start":608.573,"end":617.044,"text":"他們看這8次的經驗最多一次的投資是1227億最少是7.56億所以米兆過去的經驗看來要從5000億增加到1兆"},{"start":622.308,"end":649.608,"text":"這合不合理啊我跟委員報告過去大家都講是說都沒有用到兩千億那因為兩千億它是一個天花板所以我們在操作的時候就會考慮到說我們會不會就是超過這個天花板因為操作的時候會非常的保守我知道大概因為時間的關係因為這一次的修法因為你們沒有版本行政院沒有版本雖然沒有版本但我知道我最後想問你"},{"start":650.709,"end":667.968,"text":"因為剛才賴氏保委員也提到是不是我們要先就先開公聽會廣納專家學者及社會各界的意見作為我們修法的參考這個當然 這個你同不同意這個看委會的決議了不過我跟委員報告雖然是說這一次沒有院版但是"},{"start":668.548,"end":692.796,"text":"這一次雖然是委員提的版本但是行政院就這個案子來講我們表達非常清楚明確的立場所以對這個案子完全沒有模糊的沒有模糊的空間所以我們對這個案子來講所以你是贊成這一次的修法你是贊成基本上是就整個我們就國安基金來講不用再召開公聽會了"},{"start":694.282,"end":702.107,"text":"這個看委員會的決議了如果可以都聽取的話也許是個好事好 謝謝我是建議還是開一下比較好了好 謝謝謝謝澤偉 謝謝市長"}]}},{"id":"166289","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166289","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0fd0b544efb0c809fa68b3568d601d3dc19f30473e88220b3d7dcd980b23cef445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:49:47 - 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呃 審計長您的看法如何就是如果說我們要強化有關於政務副審計長的資格的話是不是可以從這方面來著手"},{"start":108.336,"end":109.177,"text":"謝謝委員的為我們強化我們政府副審計長的專業獨立來幫忙想方法非常謝謝我們可以從這方面來努力"},{"start":125.75,"end":144.822,"text":"因為我想這樣的做法可能可以減少外界對於未來政務副審計長可能又落入政治酬庸他本身不是在方面專業卻又來擔任政務副審計長的一律這是本席的看法我基本上是支持就是審計部是可以設置政務副審計長"},{"start":145.683,"end":160.496,"text":"那只是當然現在還有一些問題包含就是說這個政務副審計長未來需不需要經國立法院同意任命因為畢竟審計長您是經國立法院同意任命的那政務副審計長他的資格以及他未來他所要承擔的責任"},{"start":163.758,"end":190.454,"text":"當這個審計長如果說有缺席的時候那他必須要來就是擔任首長職位所以看起來就是對於副審政務副審計長的資格的還有這個同意權的行使似乎也是可以這個在一起討論是不是要做更嚴謹的考量那我想這個部分的話等到我們之後進入到主條審議的時候呢我們再來談不曉得審計長您的看法呢"},{"start":191.109,"end":214.228,"text":"因為我已經經過立法院的大家的同意非常謝謝大家的認同 支持一個現在要送進立法院的那個證物的或者是要立法院審議的大部分都合意住"},{"start":215.189,"end":229.659,"text":"包括所有的考試委員 監察委員大法官或者中央委員會的委員這些都合一組我總統那個憲法裡面我看起來我是"},{"start":230.86,"end":232.542,"text":"唯一的嘛是首長制的所以如果我是在弄因為這些都有任期剛剛那個用同意錢的都有任期所以應該不太適用同意錢的形式"},{"start":248.221,"end":267.363,"text":"不過這個部分我們之後再來討論了那當然您剛剛講到就是說現在很多的這個獨立機關他們合一制的獨立機關這個相關的成員都有經過立法院同意任命所以這裡面有一個議題就是說其實過去也有人在提出說是不是審計部未來應該從首長制改成合一制機關"},{"start":268.624,"end":273.746,"text":"您有認同這樣子的一個看法嗎因為您剛剛也講說您當過這個審計長可是有時候還是需要比較多不同的意見後來幫您發想一些這樣的議題這一個我不世界各國都有有所長制像美國是所長制像日本是合一制每一個都不一樣但是因為這個牽涉的範圍牽涉因為我"},{"start":298.355,"end":303.019,"text":"在憲法裡面的對這個還是要憲法裡面的一些規定所以要這是要從長計議什麼是對國家最好因為這不關公共的這是關於國家整個什麼是最好的所以我就說提出來這個想法就是沈記長那看起來你如果說是這個設計良善的話也不反對了沈記長我可以接受主要對國家好對人民好我都福國利民的事情我通通不反對"},{"start":327.936,"end":342.082,"text":"接下來還有一個問題就是說因為這次您提出來的法案看起來人事行政總署跟循序部對於要調升值等的意見他們是有意見的"},{"start":342.842,"end":357.725,"text":"也就是說認為說現在這次審計部提出來的要調增什麼兼任八到九職等的職務然後以及其中可以列檢任的有多少人等等他們認為說是與行政院及考試院各機關的職務配置原則就是各機關職稱及官等職等配置原則是有不同的那麼您這方面怎麼解釋呢"},{"start":369.455,"end":396.592,"text":"向委員報告 我做所長一個方向說我要做什麼 做什麼 做什麼 一個方向我就交代我的人事責任說你要 我唯一給他的說通通要符合目前相關的法制因為我審計但是看起來現在跟這個整個原額配置原則是不同嘛所以這個部分的話是不是有可能再跟人事行政總部或權需部裡面去談一下是不是你們調真的原額過多"},{"start":400.777,"end":412.457,"text":"這個部分我給委員一些概念我檢認的只有占比百分之十幾大宴的預算中心占比百分之六十五"},{"start":413.906,"end":430.825,"text":"我的那個監察院的調查次占比百分之三十幾我如果再調升照這個調升才百分之二十阿委員你出聲華麗嘛我知道 就是沈縣長我跟你說如果是這樣的話我建議您要把相關的數據都"},{"start":432.927,"end":461.247,"text":"這個做清楚你們審計部跟其他單位的比較那這樣的話大家比較能夠支持你們要調生還有一個部分就是有關於這個事前審計功能不彰的部分本身也要提出來其實是依照現在審計法的規定這個審計部的功能不是只是在事後審計包含在事前或是在整個的預算執行當中你們都可以去派員去做進行相關的審計業務可是看起來你們在事前審計的部分你們有"},{"start":462.368,"end":477.367,"text":"這個功能沒有發揮我那時候來第一任的時候來立法院講那個六十監督強化洞察 邁向前瞻邁向前瞻就是事前要疫情在危難還沒有發生之前告訴"},{"start":478.669,"end":488.816,"text":"那個行政機關 你可能會面臨什麼風險是 但是事實上我還是看到還是有很多 後來這個重大的弊案產生對 但是這個系統性風險 我用數位審計現在會看到 怎麼都會圍繞出口證明圍繞進口證明和那個延長文件 那一抓"},{"start":502.492,"end":518.233,"text":"幾百件啊幾百件所以這個就是把系統性的風險找好既然你們有這事前審計的功能你們可以發揮這樣的功能然後有這樣的職權其實應該要在這個整個預算的執行當中你們就要"},{"start":518.934,"end":535.849,"text":"我們盡量來但是我已不干涉行政部門的行政不要說是發生了一些弊端之後才來做事後審計那當然你們事後審計其實也抓出了不少的弊案那你們這些弊案都有送監察院去只要效能不當或者未進組合我們會送監察院是不是可以請審計部這裡之後給本席一份資料就是你們送監察院"},{"start":542.855,"end":555.338,"text":"調查的最後的處理結果是什麼會不會就是你審計部你抓出了一些案子可是送到監察院監察院可能第一個他可能不受理第二個可能他最後處理的這個狀況一個認為是沒有問題要不然就是處理之後這個處罰不會監察案我們送去他會糾正"},{"start":563.2,"end":583.797,"text":"会弹劾这些我们都有处理麻烦审计部可以提供给我近十年来你们审计部移送给监察院处理的状况做一个列表哪些案子送到监察院然后他做的报告最后我有一个小问题这114年的总预算"},{"start":585.278,"end":606.054,"text":"這個行政院提向這個憲法法院提起申請釋憲那大法官也受理了但是我們知道現在14年總預算案已經執行到尾聲所以如果說現在憲法法院的判決認為當時我們立法院通過的預算可能程序上有瑕疵等等認為有違憲退回到立法院審查那麼請問"},{"start":608.196,"end":624.169,"text":"這個已經執行出去的預算之後因為立法院可能重新再審議然後法定預算有浮動的時候審計部這裡會怎麼處理這樣預算的編制權在行政院審議權在立法院"},{"start":625.712,"end":636.794,"text":"現在目前包括醫術也通過了追加也通過了大概大肆抵定我們會照如果縣政方面他大概會考慮整個國家不要動盪所以大概我們下來以後我們會照立法院通過的預算所以你的建議是說建議大法官其實對於14年的我們不能建議他是從他的"},{"start":652.417,"end":675.457,"text":"再去這個雞婆啦再去審理受理因為畢竟我們的總預算案都已經執行了嘛然後追加預算也都已經通過了所以如果說再變動的話它其實會影響很大對不對對 這個大法官的專業啊不過就是我覺得這個議題也是很有趣的一個法律上憲法上面的議題喔就是如果說大法官還真的針對114年的總預算案做出了違憲的判決"},{"start":676.718,"end":693.604,"text":"那麼事後要怎麼樣的去審計我們這個都有方法那可以請審計部請審計長也把你們的現在的這個預估可能處理的一些狀況然後提份書面報告給我好嗎"}]}},{"id":"166288","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166288","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0eb0d167a8aa7cfebed0cecc406237e9644a569ea12001d9774a0a456827cbec75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:43:56 - 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謝謝趙偉有請工事董事長胡董事長 謝謝好 有請胡董事長部長等一下啦"},{"start":18.021,"end":44.89,"text":"委員好好那個副董事長想跟你先請問一下9月1日呢公廣集團跟中央社央廣原市共同宣布啟動公共媒體的AI Travel的這個合作計畫目標2026年要完成未來要做出大眾版跟專業版的AI聊天的一個機器人這是第一個我們第一次把這個公共媒體累積多年的新聞資料"},{"start":46.05,"end":70.122,"text":"政府資料NGO的資料共同套在這個AI的系統裡面規模很大所以大家也都很關注喔首先先自己請教一下啦你自己本身有在用AI機器人嗎有我自己使用不過都不付費就是了都不付費喔沒關係啦這個你比較常使用哪一個品牌呢包括那個Google的Jermyn"},{"start":71.857,"end":87.247,"text":"還有一些其他包括像MeJourney還有Visual Diffusion多方嘗試那就叫這幾個問題希望董事長能夠具體的一個說明第一個問題我想現在大家並不知道"},{"start":88.027,"end":104.035,"text":"你們的AI聊天機器人能夠做什麼從媒體上我大概的去歸納出幾個問題所以我要先看看你要怎麼回答但是媒體上看到的你的AI機器人是以一打擊假訊息提供可信的資料"},{"start":105.095,"end":129.167,"text":"這一方面的是所謂去描述但實際卻沒有用途沒有去講清楚到底他會是一個查新聞的工具查政府政策的一個入口還是公共資料一個平台還是他會把公共媒體的新聞重新摘要重新編寫現在都沒有具體的說明也不太清楚你們的這個AI機器人的定位可不可以說明一下"},{"start":130.149,"end":157.04,"text":"用最簡單的話來講它就是一個新聞相關的聊天機器人也就是你對新聞事件感到興趣你想了解哪些事情它如何發生那它現在的變化是怎麼樣等等這一類的一個最可信方面我們認為以事實為基礎的一個聊天機器人所以它有可能會把公共媒體的一個新聞重新摘要編寫然後把它查詢出來以後提供給使用者是嗎"},{"start":157.64,"end":177.903,"text":"是的 我们现在参考很多国家优质媒体做聊天机器人他们的确会用包括把连结的资讯都会提供给一般使用者好 现在这样子有一些方向那第二个问题公共媒体的资料合在一起以后AI要怎么回答同一则新闻不同媒体的写法其实本来就不同"},{"start":178.764,"end":189.823,"text":"那AI最后的回答是多家媒体的合并摘要还是AI自己在把所有的全部在汇整重新写一个版本这个部分你可不可以说明一下"},{"start":191.077,"end":210.378,"text":"基本上AI當然不會是完全像摘要式它會有做一個綜合不過它會回溯到每一個原始的新聞來源也就是使用者他可以去查他原本的資料來源在哪裡做相互的比較跟印證所以像是合併摘要然後引述所使用的資料來源"},{"start":212.16,"end":236.57,"text":"對 應該在概念上是這樣的一個方向因為我是希望他不要去直接影響到公共媒體的公信力跟資訊的一個標準所以要做這樣子的一個提問第三個問題就是大家最想知道的你現在你自己的這一個Chabot它現在跟Chabot GPT還有你剛剛說的Google它們有什麼不一樣如果它現在的聊天機器人是在"},{"start":237.25,"end":266.05,"text":"所谓的我们的资料库查找关键字找新闻那他现在这些工具都做得到啊那我们而且我们自己也有搜寻引擎啊他变成日后我们在对于这个chip gpt啊或者是像google啊他变成是一个竞争对手之一那我们要怎么样让使用者去选择使用你的AI工具可不可以请你说明一下他的强项还有他能够做到什么样的一个实际的具体的作为"},{"start":266.854,"end":287.512,"text":"毫无疑问那个您刚才提到的几个所谓聊天机器人是全球通用而这些通用过程当然是以其他国家全球各方面资讯作为主要的来源可是我们这个当然是以台湾作为主要的一个资讯来源第二个就是说刚才那些聊天机器人现在很多的研究都发现"},{"start":288.072,"end":314.021,"text":"事實上裡面不正確的資訊非常多因為他在網路上各種資料他都搜尋而我們就是以大型語言模型作為基礎所做的一個封閉型的一個資訊回答系統這樣聽起來這樣聽起來就是你是以我們自己的資料庫所準備的資料為主啦那我想這是一個整合式的公共資料平台那未來他回答的內容也勢必會作為公共媒體一部分的資訊呈現對吧"},{"start":315.916,"end":332.241,"text":"那所以因此就是否應該要納入公共媒體的既有新聞倫理跟資訊標準例如喔回答的內容應該要直接的附上資料來源吧對剛才已經說明了是那AI生成的文字是否需要標示"},{"start":334.019,"end":360.687,"text":"基本上來講比如這個當然都有一些國際的通則那在使用方面我們會盡量讓我們的專家讓他回溯到最正確的部分那這個部分當然是我想國際的通則我們當然要去參考但是這些是前期應該建立的一個基本原則而不是純粹的一個技術問題因為原則如果不先定清楚後續實作上很容易出現不一致的一個狀況"},{"start":361.767,"end":388.049,"text":"我想哪些是AI生成的文字要让使用者能够清楚的了解这是它另外所生成出来的有所标示哪些是资料来源我想这个部分应该要有所界定我们在相关的资料说明的时候我们一定会做尽量详尽的说明这是我们的原则因为这个是计划的初步来做一个起步的阶段所以许多的细部技术"},{"start":388.689,"end":415.584,"text":"我覺得都還在研議中所以我覺得這個部分上定位跟原則的問題應該要先行來討論才可以後續有了這些才能夠將他的定位整個計劃的核心底定以後他預計解決的問題以及公共媒體的專業價值還有原則的問題全部釐清才能夠把後續制定的方向能夠更清楚明確所以今天稍微要提醒一下"},{"start":416.184,"end":445.444,"text":"那公共媒體呢還有一個共同發展的AI不只是導入一項新技術而是建立一個新的公共服務的一個模式涉及了跨機構的一個治理架構也因此在計畫的前期像用途的界定資料使用的範圍倫理的標準以及現有的工具差異化等這個基礎的問題我都希望能夠有清楚的一個原則希望這個部分能夠有所作為後續的依據這個部分可以認同嗎"},{"start":446.985,"end":467.487,"text":"謝謝委員提醒這方面的確就是我們重視的原則事實上像中央社跟共廣集團也是全台灣第一個發布AI使用準則的媒體所以我們在這方面一定會朝委員所提示的方向來進行這部分我也要提醒就是我們訂定完以後文化部"},{"start":468.268,"end":488.429,"text":"就现在文化部的角色还是希望他能够协助公广集团在适当的时机提出更明确的一个说明让社会能够了解这一项公共的AI计划的方向原则期待确保这个计划能够在正轨上能够并且在其层上推出来"},{"start":489.31,"end":508.903,"text":"因為你現在只有推出一個概念對不對那真正能夠去執行的時候我們還是很擔心它的實效啦因為畢竟每一年AI機器人現在我們看到Google推出的AI跟現在已經把ChapGPT原本是霸主的地位拉下來了"},{"start":509.764,"end":539.18,"text":"那現在ChapGPT過幾個月可能又要推出自己的機器人可能又要再跟Google有一些較勁那我們的定位何時能夠推出三個月可能就被淘汰了這個部分還要再多加強那另外要跟董事長稍微提到就是說公共媒體的一個新媒體策略真正能夠觸及到年輕人嗎我們看到這個公視央社央廣都在推動新媒體的一個策略包含YouTube"},{"start":541.025,"end":566.267,"text":"還有PACS還有OTT AI編輯與多平台的一個內容但這些策略是否真的觸到了台灣的年輕族群我們都很清楚現在的台灣年輕世代的媒體使用習慣幾乎都是在手機結構性的轉變越來越多人已經不是依賴電台電視他們基本上都是IG"},{"start":567.09,"end":591.693,"text":"Youtube Tiktok但在這個還有翠啦最近的星星喔這些短語音跟社群的平台來獲取新聞跟資訊但是在今天的報告中我沒有看到沒有看見公共媒體的新媒體策略與年輕受眾之間的一個清楚連結例如公共媒體目前在哪些平台有年輕族群是實質接觸的"},{"start":592.794,"end":615.466,"text":"有哪些類型是內容最能夠接觸觸及到年輕這些受眾的還有公廣集團是否能夠進行年輕族群媒體行為的一個系統分析其實我也希望這個應該是文化部應該有所協助督促大家一起來努力的因為大家都希望讓這些公共媒體的"},{"start":616.806,"end":638.462,"text":"能够真正接触到年轻人我们也希望不要再是节目导向而是受众导向我们可以看到BBC NHK都强化短影音社群的叙事记者个人品牌化的媒体让国际的议题能够更浅显易懂更可以被分享的形式"},{"start":640.103,"end":659.756,"text":"來達到年輕世代他們能夠看到的平台所以我們現在這個部分的完整策略很少看到也希望不管是文化部還有今天胡董事長各個公廣的一些我們相關的策略應該要抵定董事長我講完這些策略跟這些目的您覺得呢"},{"start":660.563,"end":686.729,"text":"是 我們相當認同因為在整個未來的傳播生態裡面就是如何要運用包括AI轉型在內讓更多的年輕世代能夠接觸到公共服務的內容這個就是我們現在整體在進行而且有一套戰略的思想在後面做一個支持好 今天主席站起來我是希望說董事長你可不可以對於短語音社群敘事跟新聞創作者的新形態內容"},{"start":688.53,"end":714.525,"text":"能夠提出一個更具體的一個做法會後能不能在一個月內提供資料給我好 公廣計劃的部分沒有問題因為我目前真的很擔憂所以現行的做法給我未來的做法 精進的做法也給我因為我目前看不到能夠有更具體的一個做法所以這部分一個提醒也請你精進以後把資料給我 可以嗎沒有問題好 謝謝謝謝羅廷維委員董事長請回座"}]}},{"id":"166287","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166287","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0cad806e01b048464ff56a78bd28eb12244a569ea12001d9756ee6e04b9c1f51b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:39:52 - 10:53:50","影片長度":"00:13:58","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T10:39:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T10:53:50+08:00","duration":838,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.21096875,"end":87.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.83596875,"end":87.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.27409375,"end":171.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.77096875000001,"end":98.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.90284375000002,"end":217.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.30596875,"end":185.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.97159375,"end":270.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.14471875000004,"end":294.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.65159375,"end":306.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.67971875,"end":304.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.45159375000003,"end":305.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.82284375,"end":311.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.95284375,"end":311.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.47596875,"end":381.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.59159375,"end":399.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.29346875000005,"end":431.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.84534375000004,"end":541.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.35471875,"end":439.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.60784375000003,"end":439.62471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.65909375,"end":547.8272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.57409375,"end":628.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.10534375,"end":550.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.3953437499999,"end":557.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.72596875,"end":673.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.73159375,"end":687.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.24846875,"end":687.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.2822187500001,"end":699.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.1072187500001,"end":702.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.85346875,"end":782.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.72721875,"end":790.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.89471875,"end":797.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.1047187500001,"end":827.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":827.2097187500001,"end":836.2547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":832.5422187500001,"end":833.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":833.8078437500001,"end":835.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":836.60909375,"end":836.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":836.72721875,"end":839.4272187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.732,"text":"政協委員做選擇"},{"start":9.286,"end":34.675,"text":"好謝謝主席謝謝主席排今天的這個相關的需要來請各個部門來回應的很重要的事情主席各位同仁 維護部作為身心障礙者權益保障法的主管機關負責身心障礙者人格維護經濟安全照顧支持與獨立生活機會等各項權益的規劃"},{"start":36.736,"end":52.666,"text":"推動重要是監督這些角色都非常非常的重要可是本席認為在討論這個自主生活之前這些障礙者自主生活之前我們應該要回到根本來一一檢視現行的公共環境"},{"start":55.267,"end":72.596,"text":"我們今天早上已經討論了很多是不是能夠讓身心障礙者走得出去用得放心還要活得自主如果這些外在環境不夠支持的話那自立生活其實就是一個口號今天很多委員是不希望它只是一個口號"},{"start":73.516,"end":86.743,"text":"那這樣的話就是難以落實所以有幾個面向要來跟石部長請教請部長來具體說明政府目前的做法跟未來改善的方向請石部長"},{"start":93.667,"end":117.348,"text":"當然我們知道如果要讓生活自主 第一步就要走出去那走了出去我們也了解這個時間障礙者的交通環境屬於交通部的業務範疇可是相關的這個督導政策制定還是要有麻煩衛福部這邊來做相關的鞭策還有監督那目前智利的這個就業的服務的部分不只是要透過法律的制度來保障"},{"start":117.808,"end":133.711,"text":"更重要的是要可被實際的來使用這樣好的環境支持至少要讓身心障礙者能夠到得了職場或者是他想去的地方也要能夠平安順利的回到家這樣法律的保障不會只是停留在紙上"},{"start":134.412,"end":160.593,"text":"那這部分剛剛有很多委員引用了12月5號這個月12月5號我們的身障者有到台北車站去進行一些訴求那這個訴求大家可以看到真的是有讓我們這些身障者在做這個無障礙路線體驗行動的過程裡面還發現真的是無路可走"},{"start":161.263,"end":178.956,"text":"那其實這個是2025年的12月5號大家看到的畫面那左上角是在2018年似乎問題過去7年了好像也都沒有辦法實際上做到好的改善的這個過程"},{"start":180.237,"end":208.613,"text":"那請問部長就是 衛福部有沒有掌握這種狀況雖然這是屬於交通部的這個一部分的這些職長那衛福部官員有沒有曾經去實際體驗過那有沒有預計什麼時候要請交通部能夠一起或者是主管或者地方主管或者是中央主管機關一起來面對這個實際需求來用心的改善這部分不知道"},{"start":210.114,"end":233.149,"text":"目前剛剛很多委員期待的實際上到底狀況怎麼去改善部長這邊有沒有好跟委員說明有關於這個台鐵這個部分我們已經去函交通部那麼希望去請這個台鐵來做這個檢視然後進行一些改善同時呢會將這個"},{"start":235.11,"end":259.79,"text":"辦理的情形提到我們這個身心障礙權利的委員會來做報告跟討論所以這個是第一個我們是進行了那第二個就是說在這個修法的部分在這一次我們的行政院版本裡面也會強化呢在這個54條的修法裡面讓這個各級機關除了原本定的"},{"start":261.591,"end":284.868,"text":"這個第54條是要求中央目的事業主管機關來訂定相關無障礙的法規之外那麼也讓這個各地方政府直轄市縣市政府呢也應該訂定這個分歧的計畫去改善包含道路啦人行道啦市區道路以及相關的交通服務設施的無障礙環境"},{"start":285.669,"end":312.791,"text":"所以在這一次的修法裡面在58條之一跟54條我們都會有這樣的修法的方向如果有改善方案的話也麻煩布里把相關的這些成果或方案寄一份資料到我們辦公室給我們做參考我們很快把修法的請證院的版本給委員來參考那就麻煩了"},{"start":313.351,"end":332.117,"text":"那其實我們也看到其實很多無障礙的電梯其實也讓我們這些推著娃娃車身障者在處理的過程裡面其實也面臨到一些辛苦的部分2020年交通部的運輸研究所曾經針對大眾運輸廠站的這個無障礙電梯使用的情形做過調查"},{"start":333.497,"end":358.423,"text":"結果只有24%的使用者會主動的禮讓給相關需要推嬰兒車或者是像我們的生長者他這些輪椅處理的過程這個當然是需要有一個好的公民教育那如何能夠讓這些高齡者未來在使用上也好生長者在使用也好甚至是推著娃娃車的這些使用者也好如何能夠得到大家好的支持"},{"start":359.123,"end":381.42,"text":"當然我們也了解這個也是屬於像以捷運為例的話就是台北捷運需要能夠做適當的來處理那這部分有沒有機會也可以透過各種的方式來改善或者是讓這些使用這個無障礙電梯的部分能夠在好的時間裡面就能夠使用到這些必要的設施"},{"start":383.562,"end":396.613,"text":"這個確實我們台灣今年就邁入超高齡社會所以不是只有身心障礙者其實對高齡者的行的安全跟方便性無障礙這個都是應該要一併考慮進來"},{"start":397.734,"end":425.551,"text":"所以這個我們在修法裡面這一次行政院版本也是將通用設計這個概念導入那麼包含到這個交通無障礙的交通設施運輸服務等等都要一併的各級政府要考慮進來當然對民眾的宣導也很重要我的理解也是在這個捷運站或者是高鐵站其實也都有這個無障礙電梯只不過這個"},{"start":428.112,"end":455.323,"text":"民眾的宣導 理讓的部分我們可以再多強化是 所以這部分就麻煩部長對於這個期待我們這些官員們也應該要去做實際上的體驗現在到底身心障礙者在公共場域所會面臨的問題那另外希望能夠加長宣導跟地方政府合作讓這些可以被使用的部分可以真的實際上發揮它好的作用"},{"start":455.823,"end":485.298,"text":"那當然這一部分也都需要請衛福部能夠確實的督導我們也了解這個很多都是各部會的工作一起來努力的地方那下來就是我們要討論的有關於這個友善營業場所剛剛我們看到的就是在外出的第一步就面臨了蠻多的困難可是到了他想要去的場域的時候有沒有友善的這個場所可以讓他在這個出門的自主裡面可以得到最終的結果"},{"start":485.658,"end":504.528,"text":"那這邊我們也了解如果說這個環境不友善或者是這個無障礙設施不足動線不清楚的話事實上是有他在實現上的困難就是康健雜誌在去年就說我們的身障者是想好好吃頓飯為什麼這麼困難不管他是在出門的這個過程"},{"start":506.229,"end":526.389,"text":"等等我們面臨的這個世道的問題就是台階樓梯門檻凹凸不平的路面不順暢這個當然也都是需要共同來努力的部分那這個環境的不友善當然就會讓這個地方政府在處理的過程當中他需要努力的去再加強那這個部分"},{"start":528.23,"end":541.02,"text":"我們了解這個不是衛福部可是呢衛福還是要有監督或者是協助各個部門來做好這個事情那這部分不曉得部長有沒有相關的規劃或者是想法"},{"start":544.58,"end":567.47,"text":"這個範圍就很廣了這不是只有這個好那我們看我們有沒有縣市他是怎麼做的我們可以從這個高雄市的這個網頁裡面他們就會用一個友善營業場所來讓高雄市民當他要外出到他的地方的時候不管是要做醫療服務做餐飲做一般商店的服務模式"},{"start":567.97,"end":588.54,"text":"他可以让这个网页里面去让民众知道如果他需要这些比较特殊服务的时候那能不能够有一个好的指引让市民可以去参考当然我们理解不可能要求所有针对身障的这些我们的民众们都能够达到"},{"start":589.62,"end":614.185,"text":"他所需要的所有的要求可是如果有好的指引模式的話我相信對身上朋友來講應該會有很好的一種感受所以期待說能不能夠透過這個友善營業場所的指引的制定透過主管機關來協助他們制定包括這個指引應該有可行的改善清單跟分級標準友善服務的教育訓練模組"},{"start":615.686,"end":627.737,"text":"資訊可及性的具體做法跟地方政府的輔導跟鼓勵制度讓這個民眾尤其是身障者在出門的過程裡面就可以有預先可以判斷這部分是不是也可以請部長來處理"},{"start":628.929,"end":653.235,"text":"很謝謝委員提出這樣的方向因為這個我們確實是希望能夠讓這個無障礙的空間設施能夠普及但是很多的場所確實也又於它的物理實際空間的限制有時候也不容易達到這個無障礙設施或無障礙環境的要求那麼但是在這個"},{"start":655.436,"end":672.999,"text":"既有的條件限制下那麼如何能夠提供更友善於無障礙者或者是高齡者的這個生活或者是活動的空間這個是一個很重要的方向那我們來了解一下這個高雄"},{"start":673.94,"end":698.889,"text":"市政府他們所做的這個友善營業場所的指引大概內容是什麼樣那也許我們來參考訂定一個全國性可以通用的建議也是一個好如果有相關的規劃的時候也可以讓辦公室知道部長請問最後有一個問題想要請教一下勞動部有請這個發展署的司副署長"},{"start":700.294,"end":714.518,"text":"來 副組長請到你了就是有關於剛剛提到很多的重症家庭包括他身上的部分我們也了解其實目前全國這個身心障礙者的統計差不多有123萬人"},{"start":716.559,"end":733.784,"text":"那屬於比較極重度跟重度的就有34萬人就是有四分之一左右那這個部分呢將來他們除了有長照需求以外也有很多都可能會申請有移工的需求來協助包括個人助理或者是生活助理的協助等等"},{"start":734.284,"end":762.803,"text":"那這部分我們也了解其實這些家庭本來就非常非常的辛苦所以他們對所有的資源都非常的珍惜的同時也期待有更好的方式來協助他們那這個議題之前也跟部長討論過如何有沒有機會來評估停徵重症家庭申請移工的就業安定費的部分那記得上一次部長說部裡面會積極的來研議所以這部分也麻煩副署長"},{"start":764.565,"end":782.127,"text":"看能不能說明目前的研議的狀況如果今天不方便回答的話那也可不可以再麻煩跟部長進一步討論針對於這個中正家庭申請移工的就業安定費這個部分目前的進度狀況"},{"start":783.408,"end":811.765,"text":"向委員報告一下上次有提過這個案子那也跟委員再補充說明我們目前對於這個加刊裡面呢20萬人裡面大概中低低收或者領有身心障礙的生活補助或者領有老人福利法的生活津貼的這一群人已經都有減免那大概是1.2萬人那因為就業安定基金的減免會涉及到整個基金來源的穩定"},{"start":812.685,"end":835.881,"text":"有考慮到因為整個救安基金會做就業服務還有外國聘僱管理這段但是部長也很重視所以其實我們是有持續的在收集各界的意見然後再來做一些通盤的考量那謝謝委員指教好那可不可以如果有考量一個月可以讓我們也知道這個考量的內容如何好那就麻煩了謝謝好謝謝好謝謝文委好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166303","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166303","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c042d53241e9505040ed0cecc406237e9619f30473e88220b325d39fa0c7cb71d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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有請龔氏董事長請胡董事長"},{"start":9.895,"end":37.341,"text":"委員好 董事長好公視的底下有一個Pebble公民新聞我前陣子有接到中央部會 園民會來跟我提到說他們看到我們一則公民新聞上頭把園民會主委他的職稱寫成他過去的文化發展中心主任的職稱後來我去了解發現說"},{"start":39.562,"end":60.573,"text":"我一搜尋伍麗華在公民新聞竟然出現4500筆的資料我當然是很開心但是我細看之後發現好像都是拿我的臉書貼文去讓AI改寫而且寫得比我更好更吸引人那當然我是很高興啦"},{"start":60.993,"end":84.288,"text":"那这个部分我也有去跟公示这个地方办公室有去要求说明那后来呢是把它下架了可是在立法院法治局里面曾经做过一个提醒他提到说公示基金会作为我国关键文化与公共讯息之传播平台云以驼"},{"start":85.089,"end":100.422,"text":"為研謀強化各項組織任性作為所以我想了解一下 請教一下那公司基金會這邊有做什麼樣的一個強化任性措施的一個檢討改善嗎"},{"start":103.506,"end":130.186,"text":"請問委員問的是PayPal的部分還是問其他方面的任性作為都可以因為立法院法治局就是有提醒說公視基金會是我國關鍵文化與公共訊息的傳播平台所以特別希望你們要研謀強化各項的組織任性作為好的第一個很快的跟委員說明關於PayPal公民新聞平台它是一個讓公民可以自行來傳播它的"},{"start":131.667,"end":158.821,"text":"或者他的意见的一项平台那我们设立了一个检举的机制那同时我们也设立一个委员会来共同自律这个平台上面的相关作业那随着这个社会的改变也许可能出现像委员刚才所担心的会不会有人利用这个平台来造成假讯息的传播那这个部分我们已经留意到我们将来会更加强这方面的作为也就是让那个检举跟自律的机制可以更为强化"},{"start":159.281,"end":177.655,"text":"所以你们只有透过检举目前我们是检举所以有人检举你们才有办法没有我们当然平台还是有工作同仁会随时来寻这个平台上面的一些状况如果有明显的有问题的这个po文的话我们还是会加以处理"},{"start":178.526,"end":202.638,"text":"我是觉得说要等人家检举才有作为可能没有办法去真正找到很多很多错误的存在所以我还是希望说再去研谋一下我希望听到更好的一个策进作为还希望给我提供书面报告好不好好 这个部分我们来研究好 谢谢董事长那接下来我想要请一下央广"},{"start":219.056,"end":238.042,"text":"好 董事長好9月份的時候我們看到有一則新聞蠻受矚目的就是央廣的官網竟然遭到放置五星旗結果一查不得了原來是自己內部的工程師那目前他們也被起訴了"},{"start":239.562,"end":268.22,"text":"我們是覺得很重要很Shock的原因是因為央廣它早期的歷史就是要對肥廣播是一個很重要的一個平台央廣就具備了我們目前媒體少數具備短波廣播能力的電台所以它是有發送情報的一個功能所以在當今是非常重要的一個具備戰略價值的一個平台"},{"start":268.84,"end":284.931,"text":"所以有可能暫時或重大災變中都可以透過你們的這個短波對外維持政府訊息的發布所以我們就很緊張啦如果說有這樣的一個內部工程師他們可以來去做這些事情那如果從內部去癱瘓然後"},{"start":289.006,"end":305.126,"text":"發布一個假設我們投降啦可能戰爭的時候你們就發布訊息說我們投降啦這個影響都非常的重大所以我也想要請教一下董事長你們在面對這次這個事件你們有沒有檢討那未來要怎麼樣強化"},{"start":310.062,"end":331.956,"text":"谢谢委员质询首先跟您报告就是央广是自己发现我们的网站受到攻击那这个您刚刚提到是说网站被放上五星旗事实上它是把美国的星条旗跟中国的五星旗并列没有关系这个我们都知道我只是想知道你们未来要怎么办谢谢"},{"start":332.276,"end":348.716,"text":"我們已經做了內控的調整而且事實上抒發部最近已經替央廣的資安升級所以我們現在是接受最高等級的資安測試那我們也都通過了那你們的人員管理呢"},{"start":349.477,"end":366.806,"text":"人員管理我們現在因應資安升級我們必須增加預算以及人力所以現在除了就是內部的相關人員開除之外那人員的進入呢像好比這位工程師他聽說是從微軟過來的"},{"start":369.967,"end":395.995,"text":"那當然不是您看到的事實上坊間有很多的媒體的報導是誤導而且他自己向媒體的爆料都是亂講那所以呢我們都會把正確的訊息再提供委員那這個部分我們有很事實上檢察官起訴的資料裡頭有很多重大的訊息所以我們會再找時間因為今天排這個專報就是很希望"},{"start":399.216,"end":424.035,"text":"能够了解因为各位都是很重要的媒体事业所以呢经营管理其实是非常重要的对而且自然最怕的就是碰到内鬼所以我们很幸运的抓到了内鬼而且我们移送法办那这部分我也非常感谢文化部跟述发部提供给我们的协助那这个部分我是希望说要有深切的检讨改进策进作为"},{"start":424.515,"end":436.624,"text":"所以我也希望就是提供書面報告讓我們了解好不好我們這個書面報告已經向董事會報告我也會很快的提供給委員好 謝謝那接下來想要請教一下部長"},{"start":442.881,"end":471.303,"text":"委員你好部長好因為大家都很關心台灣Plus而且也都記得您說過的那句話給他們一年的時間所以一年的時間很快就到了大家其實一直在爭議的就是我們覺得這是給國外看的一個國際頻道而且是要來認識台灣所以我們也寄予厚望"},{"start":472.003,"end":497.601,"text":"不過它之所以被大家一直檢討一直檢討就是我們普遍看到它的整個訂閱率 觀看率好像都一直不是那麼理想所以會覺得說那我們編列的這個中長程計畫像這個110到113年的4年58億那其中這個台灣plus的預算4年總共拿到28億4千萬"},{"start":499.602,"end":521.739,"text":"就總覺得說這樣每年約7億的經費然後看不出它的成效就會讓大家覺得說很可惜就很想了解到底問題出在哪裡那到底要怎麼經營交給誰經營這個部分我不曉得說到底有沒有找到一個檢討改進的方向了 部長"},{"start":525.566,"end":543.53,"text":"其實這題我這題我是最不會回答的原因是就像我剛剛講到有些華視的問題一樣他有一些根本的一開始一開始有這個頻道之後到現在他有很多的一個比較難解決的問題我是不是請請執行長執行長好來執行長請"},{"start":547.349,"end":573.177,"text":"好 董事长请好 谢谢文明有关台湾Plus的部分从董事会的立场来讲我们知道它的基础一些困难跟限制的地方不过我们责无旁贷那么在这三年过程中我们的确发现了一些问题包括监察院的报告里面有部分显露的部分不过我也要很诚恳地说那并没有充分咨询我们的意见"},{"start":573.925,"end":591.1,"text":"那在这样的情况之下我们在去年就成立了一个调查小组来了解详细的情况而今年在今年当中已经进行相当多的改革希望能够把过去所遇到的一些问题或限制来加以处理这点要特别跟"},{"start":591.861,"end":611.554,"text":"这个委员说明那第二个是我们从客观的数据来讲我们现在海外的这种观赏浏览的次数时数还有跟国际合作的状态以及在国际上所产生的影响力事实上都有很多的证明可以证明它的确在成长中这一点也要请委员能够支持跟谅解"},{"start":611.914,"end":635.451,"text":"好我只是希望表達這麼多的立委在關注這個問題真的需要你們好好的來做一個專案來檢討那一定要找到原因要給我們希望要不然我們下次我們還是會問嘛對不對好謝謝董事長那主席不好意思再給我一分鐘就好想要問一下我們中央社"},{"start":645.816,"end":663.734,"text":"好 謝謝主席社長您好因為我們前陣子有看到中央社有提告一個台大博士生目前是已經和解最主要的原因就是他也不是故意的他拿了14萬筆的中央社新聞的資料拿去為AI去做訓練"},{"start":664.975,"end":676.446,"text":"那當然我們有看到你們的新聞稿也很受大家的肯定因為你們確實是站在保護媒體保護記者也希望大家來重視所謂的著作權特別是中央社的著作權因為你們是沒有在拿內容農場的東西來寫"},{"start":680.109,"end":704.661,"text":"但是我們就是想到就是繁體中文的語料庫很少那所以呢如果他限縮使用讓我們AI的繁體資料更邊緣化這個也是大家不樂見的可是到底新聞的資料能不能夠拿來訓練AI或者是新聞是否具有著作權這件事情我覺得還是大家很想要聽聽我們中央社到底怎麼說啦"},{"start":705.822,"end":729.921,"text":"所以我不曉得說中央社就是如何去看待以我來講現在大家都很會用Google的AI模式如果打我的名字進去它可能會出現六筆資料但是那六筆資料當中可能一則是中央社的一則是圓明台的一則是聯合報的一則是反正它就是隨便幾萬筆資料當中它隨便用六筆的網站資料讓大家來認識伍麗華是誰那現在AI模式"},{"start":732.543,"end":745.986,"text":"到底他會被複製歧視複製錯誤等等那我只是想說社長您如何看待未來你們產出的這些新聞遭到AI的運用那這類的衝突未來會加劇那想要聽聽看中央社怎麼說"},{"start":747.546,"end":763.52,"text":"現在的AI進化非常的快所以無所不能所以在這種情況之下更加需要中央社作為可信賴的新聞資料來源我希望委員還有我們這個國家都要扶持中央社讓我們繼續堅持把好的新聞正確新聞做出來否則"},{"start":764.881,"end":784.533,"text":"市場上如果出現都是奇奇怪怪的寫法我們現在很多的面向的新聞在國內是媒價媒體寫的不一樣我相信大家都認為中央是最持平最正確所以希望能夠支持我們繼續能生存下來你剛提到這個台大生的事情是很優異的一個年輕人後來我們也就互相合作他以他的技術來協助我們然後我們來跟他們交換資源"},{"start":786.994,"end":803.858,"text":"好 那谢谢因为听起来社长对于危机处理得很好那也希望中央社就如您自己所说的我们当然一定会支持那希望你们想办法走在最前面让我们的新闻至少有一个公正的平台好吗好 谢谢谢谢社长 谢谢主席"}]}},{"id":"166302","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166302","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c015ac45d8fa331e03a68b3568d601d3dc19f30473e88220b32a31a243c72cc49e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:42:01 - 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謝謝主席有請我們陳瑞民省記長還有我們權敘部王市長還有任總 任總有來專委好"},{"start":19.611,"end":47.113,"text":"沈議長 我看今天去答詢其實是很懇切但是我看很多人都誤會了我們審計部的功能都想說你們是算小的其實你們實在不是算小的你們算在監督的啦 最主要是說監察權 那就罷休啦那我看你們今天在審計部組織法裡面的修法裡面這個倒也不是一個程序的問題是國家財政監督可不可以真正有效的一個問題"},{"start":48.394,"end":68.677,"text":"那我想首先要肯定審計部願意追上時代提出智慧的審計還有永續的審計還有韌性的審計這些方向很好這個部分就完全支持但是從整個組織架構大調整立法院當然還是要幫人民把關我看今天各"},{"start":69.96,"end":85.024,"text":"都有提出他的一個修正案那這個確保這整個修法裡面不是被誤解也不是被誤用你看這個第七條裡面你說最多三位副審計長這個就是說政務你要說政務副首長那我首先講就是說"},{"start":92.306,"end":118.404,"text":"全序部你們會有意見仁總你們比較有意見你的意思就是說二級機關內的副首長通常都是定額我要請教今天因為聽審計長講了那麼多全序部師長這邊我倒還沒有聽到你們真正的看法王師長你們對審計部今天提出來的這個正副副審計長你們真正的疑慮到底是什麼你們就說好了"},{"start":119.605,"end":138.454,"text":"沒有 那個政務副審計長這一塊情緒部沒有意見因為這個是他們去准用中央行政機關組織基準法那中央行政機關組織基準法是人總這邊負責的他們主管這個法案所以就政務副所長這一塊我們沒有意見你們沒有意見對 尊重那個好來 這樣我聽人總你意見是什麼"},{"start":145.217,"end":164.613,"text":"這個部分原則上我們就是基準法適用的部分目前就是依照19條還有38條的設計但是原則上因為沈記長他確實在憲法上104條的部分是由總統提名後立法院同意跟一般的行政機關的二級機關有所不同"},{"start":165.373,"end":190.313,"text":"所以如果說這個部分在那個基準法適用上要做一個排除的話可以訓明理由看看它的特殊性質是什麼然後來予以做一個調整這樣 以上所以您的意見是什麼 說白話說白話就是沒有原則上就尊重那個審計部規劃跟立法院決議這樣意見就變一致了但是審計上我必須要問的就是說"},{"start":191.334,"end":201.984,"text":"你現在就是說 你說最多三人 當然寫得很彈性啦很彈性的就是說 你到底你有到底要做什麼事你業務上的曲折啊 其他的考量 這個倒沒有講清楚"},{"start":203.854,"end":227.91,"text":"我成立了我從那個85年到現在那個預算監督規模從11兆跑到了27兆那我的功能從監督要走向洞察走向前瞻這個整個就是說我的功能是要加大的是說要剛剛講的就是要預警"},{"start":228.61,"end":241.801,"text":"很好,你說功能這個我贊同但是你這一位的政務副審計長功能你把它定位在哪裡他是對於協助我幫忙做政策規劃審計方向的規劃這一方面來做這個確實是講這個倒是通但是早上我看你聽那麼多委員"},{"start":254.021,"end":257.782,"text":"這個我自己決定的 因為我去到那裡 這些我都自己決定的沒有 大家那些都誤會啦 那個政府要用這個 我是看那個四官組組法就兩個一個 現在要成立嘛 就一個政府可以來做"},{"start":279.788,"end":305.542,"text":"幫忙整個幫忙政策的規劃 感冒風雄這樣啦這是當時站出來的理由 就是主要是這樣主要是走無的坑路啦OK 全序部今天其實他講的 報告裡面也講得很清楚啦就是說 你這個非主管的比率高達150% 跟其他同級狀況機關差距很大"},{"start":306.511,"end":328.31,"text":"所以我剛才審計部 全序部剛才在這裡說你們 我要請教你們當初設計質等到原額的時候到底有沒有忽略了什麼你說會不會引發社會對是不是藉由修法來擴張這樣一個編制 大家這樣想嘛全序部我看他可能就是站在這樣的一個立場對 他有他的主軸是 那全序部 我也不用問你 你的報告很清楚你說你也要回應一下"},{"start":330.552,"end":349.734,"text":"這樣喔 因為這樣 我心結 心結根本是要獨立行使之前你若不是叫做審計官 審計機察 審計員 你不可以出來查詢所以我所有的一級主管啊 都算是心結內"},{"start":351.736,"end":359.259,"text":"雷劍啊 他才可以出去查証所以你看起來 很多人 其實喔病人的機關都結了所以他們都 我今天才說心情不太好那就是大家都一直為我而來啊我都叫他們要做事情啊要查那個高原地啊 我也抱歉說叫我查總緣合法 我也不敢沒查啊他叫我做柴化法的評估 我也不敢沒評估啊他叫我做做那個"},{"start":380.266,"end":380.787,"text":"還有一個霸凌的我也是查"},{"start":385.674,"end":395.156,"text":"這是對國家有好事 這是給他們的功能不要說都在監督那些吃飯的 那些餐盒的費用 什麼的怕給他比較大的 所以你要做這個 你沒有比較高的錢都用那些 我新界員 五到七點的 占百分之四十幾"},{"start":412.386,"end":414.392,"text":"那可憐耶 你要把阿姨提到時節啊 時節"},{"start":419.118,"end":428.962,"text":"這是一個惡性循環你如果說因為那個單位沒有十幾個他也十二三個 大家說我也要來試他試 都扛過 都來我這裡 還要來試啊我沒有來到這裡 給大家吐一點口水對不起我的動員好啦 你說得這麼乾脆對啦 要說得這麼乾脆我要問你的就是 其實啦你剛講到那個前瞻的問題喔所謂就是說 超前你看這個很顯然 不管"},{"start":448.993,"end":469.787,"text":"這個後面的整個採劃法會怎麼樣的一個演變但是從明年開始啊或者說往後開始可以預期的就是地方財政一定大幅增加他說錢一定越來越多如果這塊來講地方在那裡 很多人在開支但是地方的審計處裡面人手又不夠"},{"start":473.329,"end":497.015,"text":"卡車又不夠所以你這次修法增加了人力你到底有沒有包含整個財化法你通過以後的風險的一個係數如果說地方未來那個財源增加30%那你地方的審計處查核能力跟不上還是中央錢賣掉變成地方爛賬那中央又要來背鍋這個對整個不管什麼人接受這個都是一個國家很嚴肅的問題你最後這個問題解釋清楚"},{"start":502.486,"end":518.957,"text":"委員會的票一整件事 我憂心忡忡我憂心忡忡 所以我今天因為我今天投的這是我的組織中央的我地方是有九人 我的法定是在我的法定下線還有兩百萬的 所以我去投三十六個"},{"start":519.818,"end":523.7,"text":"就是因為 國務院也要問我這個啊我沒有去討論 有討論有討論就最少我有去討論有去討論 對委員有交代有方法我就來做 沒有方法 我想其他的辦法要成功一個事情 一定還有其他的方法但是 人是最基本的這是跟委員做這個報告 我也憂心忡忡修法"},{"start":547.674,"end":564.51,"text":"是給你們更大的權力也是資源但是責任其實也更重啦對 謝謝譬如說我為地方 我為台北市議員起來我也非常清楚啦你們地方審計處長的一個職等其實啦 實在是要讓他們這樣加工委不是只有加薪而已啦"},{"start":564.69,"end":569.234,"text":"如果沒有的話,我再看六都國局署,那些都很無關的那一天起床,你的署長,小朋友而已,你只等坐在那裡,講話你就跟人家有差勁沒有啊你說你這一次,其實你把地方的審計署長只等拉拉繞檢認12到13我講一句實在的,這個我完全同意啦你自己坐在別的國局,也可以跟人家說,來來來"},{"start":588.348,"end":593.391,"text":"看著我 看著我講話你也走過去 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我 笑我"},{"start":612.943,"end":619.747,"text":"責任更加重大好不好好 我們會來努力這個郭委員在財委會我領教過他要給我很多的都不是財務方面的都是國家住住方面的糾結案件 質跟量那一定要同步要提起身上一個強大的審計部是一個國家財政健康的基石這個其實都是在為整個國家"},{"start":641.657,"end":658.092,"text":"為了整個下一代建立一個更透明更負責的台灣啦好 謝謝 謝謝我們都連行政優良案例都用出來像嘉義關派人去輔導那個趙復原我這就到家服務啊我也用作行政優良案例啊好 嘉義關好 謝謝 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主席柯博前國安基金的執行秘書 阮清華 阮市長行政院的副組長來 委員好 陳副組長先這樣子好了 來"},{"start":25.731,"end":54.38,"text":"那個25年前本席在一樓那時候金管會跟財政部門有分家的時候在一樓我們在那邊通過了國安基金的一個設置條例成功的扮演的救火隊的角色歷年來都有很多重大的國際變動的情況你也知道什麼時候可以動用國安基金"},{"start":56.007,"end":84.377,"text":"國安基金條例都有明確規定比如說碰到重大的事件國際的因素或者是特別政治變化等等因素然後大家信心不足然後股市就崩跌的狀況所以國安基金它扮演一個非常成功稱職的角色過去它的規模很小就大概八兆左右所以我們當初的考量"},{"start":85.077,"end":103.21,"text":"就是大概週轉率大概算一算大概是3%到5%可以維持一定一天的那個量都還OK當然不是說讓你一次都用盡記得以前最會操盤的大概是財政部部長他是試兩波千金"},{"start":104.755,"end":125.655,"text":"他就聞風不動 早上七點半突然通知所有的媒體 記者 財經記者就是守在財政部舊的辦公室外面那個地方請大家喝豆漿 吃燒餅油條大家就想說有什麼事情要發布 有什麼發布"},{"start":127.38,"end":151.17,"text":"沒有 沒有 沒有過一陣子就說有一些委員都會到現場來所以就一場騷動所以這個鵝魚我炸就是這樣四兩撥千斤的一毛錢都沒動隔天就翻場所以國安基金的設置他必須要膽子夠大"},{"start":152.25,"end":174.992,"text":"他必須要鎮得住整個規模他必須要讓市場有信心現在國安金的推動當初跟現在比起來是這個市況不一樣現在都快100兆了差很多了快100兆了對 現在100兆現在政府基期是不是在做多"},{"start":176.407,"end":196.843,"text":"沒有所謂做多的問題我們基本上 國安基金基本上是維護股市的穩定維護投資人的信心沒有像剛才委員講的那種情況不過就是先穩定嘛 穩定了以後再做多"},{"start":197.583,"end":218.943,"text":"也不會做多 其實我們有 官方基金有限制因為我們買跌不買漲市長 你也客氣啦當然你的心理就是扮演好你的角色齁在全世界每一個國家當然都希望股市可以欣欣向榮蓬勃發展因為股市是經濟的櫥窗嘛你股市好 做得棒"},{"start":219.483,"end":238.363,"text":"你执政就不会有什么太大的一个牵连或者是负面的影响所以全民财富就增加你有没有算过从25年到现在市场规模多了快90兆平均一个股民赚了多少钱"},{"start":239.63,"end":252.594,"text":"我是沒有算 因為這個很難算為什麼 因為每一個人的投資的績效都不太一樣有些人可能是用當沖的方式那有些是長期投資 我們現在開戶的這個戶數有多少這個部分因為我沒有去計算一千兩百多戶吧一千兩百多萬戶因為有重複開戶的應該有機會啦那比較有經常在這個"},{"start":268.446,"end":286.553,"text":"買賣股市的流動性比較多的正常戶大概有多少這一部分因為都是金管會在主管大概有四五百萬戶所以其實在台灣的經濟方面股市是很熱絡的意思都是這樣子所以"},{"start":287.153,"end":313.705,"text":"分析一位 既然你剛剛講的安定很重要那凡是整個台灣之與全世界我們的確要加強一個強心劑所以過去是大概國安基金的借錢什麼規模是五千億 五千億今天有人提到大概就是債錢到一兆"},{"start":314.73,"end":339.924,"text":"其實如果相比過去的倍數來說的話大概是成長了快十倍左右所以十倍照理說應該要五兆但是我覺得五兆可能恐怕現在目前的財政情況還有點小困難所以本席提出的是兩兆兩兆的規模或者是三兆"},{"start":341.161,"end":355.19,"text":"市長你覺得兩兆好還是三兆好我感謝委員長期關注股市我現在跟委員報告一下民國89年的時候如果用5000億來算的話"},{"start":357.031,"end":370.466,"text":"那時候它跟市值的佔比大概百分之五點四三五點多五點四三那我們現在假定提高到一兆一兆的話如果跟現在的市值來比的話它佔比大概百分之1.03"},{"start":372.268,"end":390.589,"text":"其實是蠻低的但是我的意思是說有時候如果提個太高也有一些後遺症為什麼如果你提太高如果你進場如果買太多的話出場也會有退場的時候也會有一些會影響股市的這些狀況其實國安基金很多人都是覺得他很神秘"},{"start":391.61,"end":413.719,"text":"那從這20年來它的績效評比來說很多股民說你現在快3萬點了很多股民多數還是苦哈哈沒有賺到錢所以很多人就說那來一個傻瓜投資法就跟著國安基金走讓你想要什麼通通有市長"},{"start":416.024,"end":443.158,"text":"你總共操盤大概有幾次我這個超過 這個是第三次這次是第九次就是從國安卿 因為還有前任你前曾明聰 曾主委那時候當次長他有操盤超過啊我是協助 那時候是協助你有在場喔那是我獨立操作大概三次你三次 全部加起來有幾次全部加起來九次九次喔那有九次裡面喔大概獲利有沒有超過20%的"},{"start":446.352,"end":466.392,"text":"有好幾個都超過20%對 都超過20%所以很多人說你們很厲害啊然後你剛剛講說買了你們希望就是要退場其實你在第一次就是前八次 前九次的時候你們那時候有沒有買台積電"},{"start":468.898,"end":493.433,"text":"我不方便在這邊公開講那你可以不要回答那你們有買很多的台積電當初如果買台積電你買了那你不要賣放到現在那不是替國家賺更多的錢嗎而且還有一點你賺的這些錢累積了以後你不見得一定要百分之百繳國庫啊"},{"start":495.074,"end":511.286,"text":"本席認為啊你覺得這個基金規模不夠那你可以一半繳國庫一半就留著市長你有沒有算過你9次的操盤啊如果每一次都累積50%到現在大概有多少金額"},{"start":512.543,"end":532.251,"text":"累積到現在 對如果是說都不賣是吧就是你有賺有賠嘛那賺的比較多就如果每一次都結清累積到現在賺的部分有多少這個沒有去算過啦好 那翻譯句話說不要說50%9次算下來總共賺了多少錢"},{"start":532.691,"end":556.811,"text":"五百六十幾 五百六十四億五百多億吧對 五百多億那所以你如果說一半的話是留兩百五十億左右放在你的國安基金裡面以備不時之需啊我跟委員報告目前的國安基金的規定是說它如果經過委員會決議通過以後那我基本上是繳酷啦基本上是繳酷因為放在國安基金國安基金因為已經退場"},{"start":557.532,"end":583.068,"text":"你也不能再做任何的用途只能就存到銀行裡面生利息就等於是說浪費那個資源所以如果是說要做別的用途那可能就是大家要有共識而且可能會涉及到修法的問題資源到底要怎麼運用但是如果是從國庫的管理來看我們基本上是支持統收統資比較不希望這個為了長治久安"},{"start":586.05,"end":610.648,"text":"然後這個國安基金是一個非常重要的信心的指標本席建議提高到兩兆的規模兩兆那因為比率上剛剛都已經討論過往兩兆的目標來努力那國庫缺不缺錢我想因為我們是借錢嘛我們是跟金融機構來借貸嘛"},{"start":612.389,"end":634.816,"text":"那如果是提高到一點 假定是兩兆兩兆 對兩兆的話那就等於是說假定那個四大基金那三千億還是維持等於換句話說 貸款就要達到1.7兆那1.7兆的話可能就是說單家的金融機構可能就吃不下來可能就是到時候可能還在安排可能就是會有一些貸款的一些問題"},{"start":636.056,"end":647.502,"text":"你氣勢如虹才可以匆匆容容你要有底氣啊你如果當個小器材神大家覺得不痛不癢信心不足啊而且"},{"start":648.516,"end":676.526,"text":"如果今天可以確定通過兩兆的國安基金我相信台灣的股市馬上就會飛躍三萬點有沒有信心我沒辦法表達對未來的股市的發展我不是股神但是我是覺得說如果我們國安基金如果從目前的可用兩千億如果提高比如說到七千億的話"},{"start":677.426,"end":698.794,"text":"我相信對這個股市的穩定還有這個投資信心一定有很大的幫助好 謝謝反正你現在大概起跳都一兆啦那我們希望再討論看看心有餘力就往上加好 謝謝羅委員要跟你們同黨委員溝通一下他們有不同的意見好 接下來我們請王世堅委員"}]}},{"id":"166300","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166300","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c05b9c8c047fd0a7f3ed0cecc406237e9619f30473e88220b3ad4d19330d4f164e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:23:00 - 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麻煩先請那個部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":23.308,"end":42.322,"text":"葉委員你好部長你好我先來問一下大家關心的一個剛剛發生的事情就是現在因為那個韓國他的電子路徑卡把台灣的國民旁邊弄了一個揣拿對不對所以外交部很生氣執政黨的立委說一定要讓他付出代價"},{"start":43.283,"end":68.061,"text":"然後後來我們外交部也很嗆就是說看了台韓的貿易有巨額的逆差顯示兩國關係有不對等之處與待威脅讓人家感覺是不是要透過這個貿易的行為就商業的交流給他一點教訓付出代價那以文化的角度來講的話當然韓劇還有這個韓團對於這個台灣人對於這個韓劇韓團的支出一定是大於我們台劇台團"},{"start":73.224,"end":89.314,"text":"吸收到外匯所以這個部分也有如果按照外交部的看法的話也有不對等之處所以大家很擔心說文化部會不會配合外交部做出一些抵制韓團跟韓劇的作為部長你自己的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":90.402,"end":109.719,"text":"你會覺得文化歸文化不要扯到政治嗎不是 我想文化部不是喔不是 文化部就會照文化部原來的政策往下走我不會一定要配合誰你不會配合文化部但是我跟你報告一件事情是一個好消息就是這一兩年來我們跟韓國之間的那個隱居的合制"},{"start":110.259,"end":127.935,"text":"的情况越来越多然后韩国对于台湾的文化也越来越感兴趣我想你大概听过一个韩国人对台湾感兴这四个字他们对台湾感兴这四个字非常有兴趣所以我们今天才刚刚办过一个首尔书展是以台湾好OK就是"},{"start":129.096,"end":155.748,"text":"可以就是反正我們現在台韓的交流就繼續往前走然後這個我們也希望說我們賺到那個韓國的有關於韓團就是我們的台劇我們的台團也可以賺到外匯但是現在雖然說可能他們賺比較多一點有不對等關係但文化部不會配合外交部做出抵制的行為這樣子講那個歌迷或者是一些韓迷就放心了對不對"},{"start":156.548,"end":180.543,"text":"我一向是比較積極一點 希望台灣自己的東西這另外一回事啦 跟我問的沒關啦至少就是他們如果要抵制的話 跟文化部沒有關係我們不會抵制韓團 也不會抵制韓劇啦韓流都不會抵制啦 政治歸政治 文化歸文化啦我們在合作拍片啦反正那個部長並沒有配合他們的戰狼外交啦沒有說要他們付出代價啦 你沒有嘛"},{"start":181.594,"end":208.356,"text":"你這樣講那個我們台灣很多那個喜歡韓劇韓團的就放心了啦這是先確定一下接下來來問一下就是公廣集團的問題先問先講台灣Plus因為台灣Plus一直是大家非常關心的一個媒體為什麼因為花很多錢過去呢說花了58億編了58億啦但後來花多久可能有點出入啦但是接下來4年接下來又要再花40億等於是8年要花百億啊"},{"start":209.658,"end":236.909,"text":"這麼大的金額效果怎麼樣我覺得這個大家一定要來檢討那現在是連監察院都看不下去監察院都認為效果不彰其中有幾件事情我看了我自己是覺得非常離譜第一個新聞的部分這個監察院的調查顯示說裡面所有的新聞決策是在少數主管的身上那最重要的一位呢他居然不熟悉中文也沒來過台灣他是住在紐西蘭"},{"start":238.089,"end":267.749,"text":"然後他是根據三位關鍵主管跟他匯報新聞的選題那這三位裡面有兩位沒有採訪經驗然後其中有一位政治立場鮮明我問一下部長部長我們當初要成立TownPlus是說要把台灣的聲音行銷到全世界要講台灣的故事要做類似英國BBC跟日本HK這麼重大的台灣的這樣的一個重要媒體結果我們的新聞編採最主要的決策者他是一個"},{"start":268.55,"end":285.749,"text":"不懂中文那這個難道沒有什麼文化的落差嗎然後再來就是剛剛講那三個主管沒有三個其中兩個沒有編採經驗但他負責新聞的選題耶那其中還有一個政治立場先民請問一下他的政治立場是什麼"},{"start":287.694,"end":313.019,"text":"那個唯一有採訪經驗的那個人政治立場是什麼偏藍偏綠我不知道欸我不知道偏藍偏綠監察院的報告你都你文化部有補助台灣plus錢耶然後當監察院做出這樣的報告出來文化部長說我不知道那監察院就解他的啊關我文化部什麼事不是不是不是那個部長今天台灣plus他是歸你管的"},{"start":313.559,"end":341.204,"text":"那今天連監察院都做我不是 不是歸我管那預算是你補助的啊我編預算給他對啊 你給他錢你就有督導的責任啊文化部跟所有公共媒體都有一個關係就是我不能參與他的媒體決策那這樣子 你不能參與他的決策我負責編預算啊你還是要監督啊我監督在你還是要監督啊怎麼可能連監察院都這樣子寫然後你說你不知道那國人怎麼會相信我不能干預他主編是誰是不是外國人 是不是"},{"start":341.764,"end":364.425,"text":"你至少了解一下嘛文化部落是這種態度難怪台灣plus一直被檢討了嘛因為黨政軍退出媒體是一個大家花很多力氣才達成的我是說監督那你如果這樣講的話監察院不用去監督啦監察院有監察院的角色你也有責任啦你現在推而已啦你也有責任啦希望你擔這個責任那是不是請執行長說明一下"},{"start":366.906,"end":385.067,"text":"各位委員報告那個監察院所調查的當然是在前一陣子的資料不過我們在今年六月開始您剛所提的這種外籍的編輯人員我們都做過調整現在是由本國籍的人來擔任總編輯還有相關的主管是因為監察院報告出來之後才改的嗎不是 我們本來就有因為那之前怎麼這麼荒謬所以他講的是事實就對了"},{"start":385.367,"end":413.192,"text":"我們先前需要借助國外的這個編輯的經驗不是啦你成立的目的是向全世界講台灣聲音欸結果你找了一個國外的人來向全世界講台灣聲音這種邏輯你有辦法說服大家嗎有一半都是本國籍的同仁在沒有沒有沒有你是說後來才改的嘛那他講的三位主管兩位沒有採訪經驗是不是事實他是合稿編輯不是採訪主管那一樣嘛他也要有新聞的經驗他有沒有嘛有沒有"},{"start":413.672,"end":437.579,"text":"有有有他有新聞經驗他的新聞工作經驗是什麼他在別的媒體在國外的媒體有不同的代表那有一個他說有政治立場他是藍還綠的我不曉得監委所指的我天啊今天監察院報告出來媒體都公佈了然後結果你身為執行長你說你不曉得因為我沒有看過代表你們就是在擺爛嘛我覺得我不能接受你是執行長欸"},{"start":439.434,"end":447.765,"text":"你自己講 監察院報告都出來 新聞都報了結果問你執行長 一問三不知然後你每一年要跟納稅人拿那麼多錢"},{"start":449.349,"end":467.955,"text":"把錢交在你的手上結果你做出這個樣子然後連檢討也沒有就推一句不知道這大家可以接受嗎我覺得你的回答你的回答全部人都在看那接下來你又要40億那請問一下他的政治立場是什麼他的政治立場是什麼怎麼會不清楚好 再來我們來看效果當時啊"},{"start":473.24,"end":486.76,"text":"那個台灣Plus講是主要的受眾是歐美國家嘛監察院說現在觀看數據67.6集中在亞洲只有20.8是在美洲那這樣的方向是你們要的方向嗎"},{"start":487.669,"end":507.289,"text":"監察院資料可能不是最新因為這個滾動式的每年在增加我們現在國外的百分之四十四 九十四的觀眾都是來自於海外其中美國跟亞洲是占各半我問他當然是來自於海外嘛我現在講的是他當時的數據亞洲是六十七 接近七成嘛每週二十嘛這數據對還錯"},{"start":508.971,"end":530.43,"text":"大概一年多前是這年好嘛 那現在最新是什麼現在最新大概海外的94%不是海外 美國跟亞洲美國跟亞洲都是海外對執行長 你應該了解我們的我知道我知道每週是多少每週這個數據大概我可以更新因為到現在大概50左右每週是多少50左右每週有50將近50每週將近50了所以這一年你們現在每週50"},{"start":534.91,"end":556.301,"text":"你有資料嗎 為什麼還要次長提醒你你不是執行長嗎你是執行長結果是文化部次長提醒你然後剛剛文化部部長又說他管不了TownPlus所以文化部對於TownPlus到底有沒有監督責任執行長不知道是由文化部次長來提供然後部長說管不了TownPlus這到底什麼機制啊TownPlus好奇怪的單位喔"},{"start":557.752,"end":567.922,"text":"所以美洲是多少所以美國是多少美國百分之四十五那亞洲現在多少亞洲的話我們有分像比方不用再分了就亞洲就好 多少"},{"start":569.185,"end":594.685,"text":"亞洲其實在亞洲地區大概是百分之將近25左右現在剩下25所以最近有逆轉因為我不曉得因為我感覺你好像很不熟悉你的業務那我是不曉得說這個數據是真的還假的因為剛剛人家丟給你的你沒有掌握我提醒一件事情每週50還是不夠你看一下如果這個媒體是要對外講台灣的聲音你有沒有看到賴清德總統"},{"start":595.666,"end":619.881,"text":"他投書都投出什麼媒體美國媒體投出的多吧連我們軍購1.25兆預算第一時間都投出美國媒體對於美國人講所以他多重視那個市場賴總統三不五時上美國右派的podcast的主持人的接受他的訪問就是要他要這麼多媒體去訴說我們台灣的聲音結果我們台灣自己成立的媒體"},{"start":621.182,"end":642.492,"text":"說要對全世界講台灣聲音結果以前每週只有20%現在最新的數據是15%我真的覺得這個媒體很奇怪非常奇怪然後再來你看有一個你們有好多節目嘛比如說什麼Connected是不是 這個節目是你要不要去看一下它的成效"},{"start":645.435,"end":667.324,"text":"你成立這個頻道是要幹嘛它有在電視頻道還有在YouTube還有在臉書你用這個頻道講了什麼台灣的故事嗎它是在介紹台灣的一些各種產業或者是文化或者是各種多種議題透過訪談的方式邀集各位各種國際的訪客或者是裡面非常多跟什麼"},{"start":669.023,"end":688.874,"text":"很多什麼都是東南亞的東西啊您看到的其實有很多亞太地區的議題所以你覺得說花那麼多的錢用這個頻道效果很好這只是其中之一啦但是就花了很多錢嘛你們就開了很多節目嘛然後其實都花了非常多的錢嘛訂閱數也低 然後點閱率不高訂閱數目前150萬的國際觀眾訂閱不是 這一個頻道啦"},{"start":694.117,"end":712.891,"text":"這個頻道他目前是在你們就是開了很多不同頻道然後弄了很多team花了很多錢嘛那你一個頻道要去檢驗你不是每次回答問題都用一個總的數字嘛那這樣大家怎麼檢驗個別的頻道就像剛剛我問我問美國亞洲你就給我扯海外美國跟亞洲都是海外啊不要用這種方式在呼嚨啦"},{"start":714.666,"end":738.793,"text":"我覺得你們要接下來又要審預算了希望說你們可以提出具體的成效因為去年TimePlus在委員會討論就很久當時大家其實也說好那大概一年的機會可是看不出來嘛然後另外我請教一下你們現在要搬家是不是最後一下要搬家嘛你一年的租金租金辦公室的預算是編兩千萬嘛"},{"start":740.023,"end":762.879,"text":"是在松江路這個位置 還有華市的都有我又跟你調資料啦 我也幫你算過了啦因為松江路一個月是一百一十五萬然後華市一個月是三十三萬所以兩個加起來大概一年租金現在是一千七百八十八萬 沒錯吧那你們現在說要搬到華市"},{"start":764.384,"end":782.842,"text":"松江街這個要搬到華市因為松江路租期到115年1月沒問題 這不用解釋 我說確定嘛我就確定那個訊息嘛 對不對好 那華市一個月租金增加多少現在還沒有確實估算出來 還在等沒有估算出來還沒有正式的報價 我們還在估算還沒有報價 好 那我就問一個問題如果還沒有報價 我們看後面你們董事會的討論"},{"start":784.844,"end":792.896,"text":"你們有一個董事說搬遷費用要五千六百萬光搬遷就要五千六百萬可是呢胡董事長袁輝講說雖然這個"},{"start":796.741,"end":826.037,"text":"五年期估算整體租金會節省417萬那請問一下台灣PLUS執行長剛剛說華氏的租金都還沒估算出來可是董事長就可以直接講說租金五年會省417萬請問沒有報價怎麼來的節省這是我們從現有的價格去推估好 那現有價格你們估多少有推估 華氏增加多少就是推估這個樓層因為現在胡元輝董事長是根據華氏出租多少估的數字嗎 多少"},{"start":826.397,"end":841.63,"text":"同樣面積轉換過去以後多少嘛大概因為現在還需要不不 副總市長你今天可以估了出來租金有節省代表說你有數字嘛你們估搬到華氏華氏是一個月租給你們多少"},{"start":842.506,"end":858.171,"text":"一個月不是 第一個我們是12月在董事會才要做最後的確認這是第一因為主席站起來不要讓主席站太久我的問題很簡單因為你估得出來節省417萬你就是會有數字數字是多少"},{"start":858.892,"end":870.149,"text":"這個是講那個松江路在那個辦公室租的話整體租金五年期因為有優惠所以節省租金417萬不是相對於華氏"},{"start":873.963,"end":901.173,"text":"那華氏現在數字還沒有出來因為12月決定以後才有好那我問一個狀況華氏數字還沒有出來那也有可能因為你松江街一個月是115我先講我是支持你們搬到華氏為什麼因為華氏虧損所以既然你time plus你要付租金出去那與其要付不如付給華氏因為是公廣節我支持但是你還是你也是要去算那個成本效益因為你搬遷費這五千六百萬"},{"start":902.193,"end":926.27,"text":"你會不會到時候你節省了租金你節省租金結果搬遷費就整個吃掉了會不會出現這個狀況是 謝謝委員我跟委員很簡單報告這個搬遷費是台灣plus的初步估算那這位廖董事他是依據這個估算數字在討論這個問題所以這個不是確定的數字因為第一空間大小所以不見得是五千六百萬"},{"start":926.87,"end":943.978,"text":"當然我們希望他就跟委員的意思一樣如果移到華氏有這個好處就是他可以把華氏的租金收入來增加但這最後會多少取決於兩個部分第一個部分是使用的空間第二個是有關租金的計算方式但無論如何這個第一個"},{"start":946.099,"end":972.637,"text":"因為我們辦公室也調資料啦都一直不給啦那希望以後調資料可以給好不好可以給那大家就會減少在這邊討論的時間可以根據一個很明確的數字來討論所以不要隱瞞啦因為這麼多錢大家會想要知道怎麼運用尤其台灣Plus剛剛你講成效我覺得大家都一直打折扣啦好不好這個部分最新的資料出來請你給所有教育文化委員會大家都想要知道"},{"start":973.317,"end":996.988,"text":"好不好然後第二個就是我是不知道因為剛剛很多委員在問說公司的董事現在說已經確定名單了嘛對不對那個部長已經名單你確定了嘛對不對現在只是什麼時候要送的問題嘛就是在等那個等那個確定什麼時候審查對已經名單已經有只是不能公佈嘛因為你要等確認公佈這我們都理解但是已經有了嘛已經不像你以前講的剩一兩位還沒答應剩一位"},{"start":997.828,"end":1015.876,"text":"不是你不是都有了還剩一位現在都OK了嘛那盡快送為什麼因為我們都其實很多人在講啦因為公事董事一直沒確認所以包括整個公事團隊大家都有點那種帶退弟兄心態啦因為都不確定嘛新董事上任搞不好很多高階主管都要離開了嘛"},{"start":1017.016,"end":1038.583,"text":"所以快一點確認可以讓公司趕快上軌道我們會盡快配合審議盡快公佈給大家對 然後你快一點因為現在的很多董事可能會覺得接下來我也不知道要不要留任像重大的經費的一些決議像我們剛剛講那都是你說之前的董事搞不好也不知道狀況因為都會青黃不接嘛你趕快這些問題會解決很多啦所以希望部長"},{"start":1039.403,"end":1055.614,"text":"不要再拖了啦其實我對 你接下來就是不是好了 因為他站久了我我我我好 你你講希望今年年底以前審議會趕快開然後全部通過OK因為如果我送出來又重演過去的話一千天耶"},{"start":1056.554,"end":1074.128,"text":"會要一千天再來一次的話你說你過去遇到的狀況不會再發生嗎那就是你拖比較久好不好別人拖的絕對不會你拖的久我拖的不算久如果他一千天的話比我久多了那我們都還沒發生你就是一千天我當然怕發生對啊你趕快啦現在就應該可以慢慢結束了好 謝謝謝謝葉元之委員"}]}},{"id":"166299","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166299","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c05732b7eaf69cc425a68b3568d601d3dc19f30473e88220b32cfcc21c557743ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:21:58 - 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沈記長沈記權之所以存在就是要監督預算的執行就是要審查政府財務的支出就是要來積查財務有沒有不法沈記權的存在也拿來用於考核財務的效能當然就是要看守我們的財政紀律"},{"start":31.778,"end":52.968,"text":"所以我手上的這一本呢這是第二冊第一大冊是分重要的施政議題我手上的這一冊就是依各公務機關你們去作為單位來提出的審核意見那我這邊整理出來的是各個部門當然各部會跟地方政府是你們去查查預算執行的大宗佔96%左右"},{"start":55.729,"end":82.084,"text":"但其他院計之間也是有啦只是我覺得我一直很好奇喔立法院的預算執行沒有值得特別來好好審查一下審計一下的嗎過去歷屆你們每年的這一本喔對於立法院的審和意見其實都非常少耶一面都不到耶一面都不到耶"},{"start":83.536,"end":90.796,"text":"有特別對立法院特別給予什麼樣子的方便還是說立法院的執行都是沒問題"},{"start":92.863,"end":113.752,"text":"謝謝委員考慮到這個問題 非常謝謝第一個我們損盡 因為要損盡 剛剛講要二十七十一個人要損盡六百多億我支持人力增加 但是我是說全部立法院在我們的評估 它是十幾億 它大概也沒有大共識三十六億 比我還清楚 有三十六億"},{"start":118.894,"end":121.916,"text":"我們的審計像這一種我們都用電腦在跑就RPA晚上的時候它就在跑有問題我們會通知我們是抓風險性還有它的規模性所以 審計長我懂你的意思你的意思是說你當然會照過有非常清楚的步伐你一定查有執行有清楚的問題你一定會查核但是我並不認為依預算規模來決定你審計的力道"},{"start":147.628,"end":173.138,"text":"絕對不應當是這樣對立法院我們來看看我提幾個我看到的我從國會助理到現在自己擔任立委在立法院時間真的加起來前前後後已經20年以上了我常常覺得很奇怪立法院常在換電視我不曉得昭緯辦公室有沒有這個去年新的戒旗換一次今年4月又換一個電視"},{"start":175.322,"end":186.178,"text":"然後我來換的時候我還非常訝異的跟我們總務處的同仁說啊有沒有壞掉?有沒有壞掉?用的很新啊然後就來敲敲打打又換電視"},{"start":188.274,"end":211.577,"text":"有沒有過於腐爛啊去年換今年又換我不曉得為什麼這有沒有執行面的過於浪費呢而我也覺得常常在換電話當然我助理說電話換的沒有電視的頻率高可是呢泰幻畫機呢一次都是2900台3000台喔一次都是7000萬起跳的喔"},{"start":212.518,"end":240.566,"text":"那相較於我們立法院在審查其他機關的院計的預算譬如說監察院監察院去年被砍到97%、98%業務費都沒有了他們連買衛生紙都綁手綁腳立法院花錢是大手大腳所以我提點給您不必然有什麼不法只是說有沒有過於浪費或腐爛好 再下一頁我也赫然發現立法院的中心大樓電梯常常壞啊"},{"start":241.755,"end":269.375,"text":"然後呢 該修 確實該修因為這是辦公的需求 更是安全的需求可是呢 我赫然 真的是赫然發現居然立法院去年修電梯是拗行政院買單餒是去請行政院用他的二倍金來支付立法院中心大樓兩千四百 兩千三百五十萬的預算立法院沒有預算嗎為什麼是要行政院買單呢"},{"start":271.358,"end":300.378,"text":"這都很怪啊所以我用這個案例告訴您對於立法院的預算的執行也是要叫企鋼 叫補來該審計 該審核我們都要做好嗎好 我們只要會照委員的意思我們就會查該查就查 也不是務司要叫你查你才查是本來當於你們的職責就要來進行相關的審計下一頁剛剛我們中嘉賓幹事長也提了"},{"start":301.578,"end":329.605,"text":"現在有立委提案連公費助理的人數上下限要刪除而且立委可以統籌運用免減拒核銷這個助理費助理費一夕就成了立委個人的小金庫一年自費可以高達780萬剛剛您回答我們嘉賓幹事長你說現在很厲害我們用這個叫做數位審計你一定查得到"},{"start":330.799,"end":356.105,"text":"我非常好奇耶免檢據核銷你怎麼查得到你是立委肚子裡的蛔蟲你是潛伏在立委辦公室裡的小帳房嗎我們不要講你怎麼查就從制度面來講如果制度一開始歪了你後面審計人再怎麼辛苦去查核那其他都賣戶期啦賣戶期啦啦所以就這個制度面這個修法要注意"},{"start":356.305,"end":357.926,"text":"要注意是不是要好好的 嚴肅的不可為 就不要強而為之啊這要注意 因為這個影響因為這些助理啊 已經是整個立法院很重要的一環不要去影響到他們 讓他們安心安定"},{"start":373.291,"end":400.304,"text":"這個是很重要 我同意所以我建議修正您的說法您絕對不可能有這種滔天本領好 我同意這個惡法如果修了下去免檢去核銷你用什麼數位審計都沒有辦法AI再強也不可能去查到這些立委的小金庫怎麼濫用 怎麼濫花所以說審計權就是要嚴格去審核下一頁 我非常支持下一頁"},{"start":401.707,"end":423.48,"text":"你的三個條文我都支持可以正向討論至於你們跟權序部跟人總之間適用條文適用的法律這個可能需要再大家再參詳一下好但是增加你們的副審計長也好或者是你們的這個值等要提高或是人數的提升我都支持我認為都可以正向的討論下一頁"},{"start":425.25,"end":449.55,"text":"因為預算連年增加 這個你們都講了從15年來 人數還是336人沒頂沒當但是總預算卻增加了63%基於 你剛剛講預算規模當然你可能需要更多的專業人力下一頁而且我支持你未來的專業人力更需求性更大是因為才化法的大災難來了"},{"start":451.826,"end":478.184,"text":"分配不正義 事權沒有統一財政沒了紀律 配套又沒有提出之下下頁地方財政紀律就很可能大舉的惡化也就是蚊子館越蓋越多加碼非法訂設服的補助會越來越腐爛或者是各項不經濟的支出可能也會越來的越惡化"},{"start":479.145,"end":494.395,"text":"因為這個修法本身是權跟錢權沒有統一未來你們審計的人力真的要有滔天本領這個部分你們有什麼因應剛剛有像這個非常謝謝委員這個錢下去"},{"start":496.937,"end":511.039,"text":"一定說 我要加臨時人員 我要加營養午餐 我要哪個都這個地方租住 我們雖然但是這個財政就會慢慢輸口"},{"start":512.02,"end":515.021,"text":"財政的豬園使用效率就會變所以我剛剛提出我要一些審計人員如果審計人員行政單位 行政院沒給我準備用聯合審計運營我支持你們提升人力但是剛剛前一位質詢的王宏威委員認為在國防預算你們可能要組小組"},{"start":535.105,"end":554.313,"text":"來嚴格審計國防特別預算的之用我反而認為畢竟國防預算連第一關排案都被擋住了什麼時候通過也未定之天但是被強行表決通過的裁劃法已經造成地方可見的財政紀律的惡化你們倒是應當針對這個地方的沒有計劃錢一堆"},{"start":559.696,"end":574.214,"text":"錢下來了 市權沒有整合 沒有統一這種腐爛的經濟不支出的之用才是你們目前要鎖定所有的專業的審計人才集中對於地方政府新上路的才化法之後你們該做的"},{"start":574.414,"end":597.644,"text":"我們會照委員的意思 因為我們在查113年的時候發現我們提出了1777項的審計意見以後可能超過3000項都有可能因為以之前的預算是4165億的增加我們是希望設計一套可以可行可久的制度 不會造成財政機率的歐化但是如果沒辦法的話 我們自己啊 審計出手"},{"start":598.584,"end":605.452,"text":"好啦 審計當自救啦已經看到的地方財政的惡化跟不經濟的支出你們就要未雨綢繆好不好讓審計權發揮正向的功能好 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前面都好談立法院是監督的角色不管哪一個政黨都是一樣這是我要提醒的我覺得應該有更多良性的對話我們財化法走到今天我剛剛一直強調依法行政很重要"},{"start":141.094,"end":165.011,"text":"今天我看到的就是比較遺憾的是對於院長來說他可以丟一句話就是我不願意或者是我要設前提但是你是公務人員你們底下都是公務人員更部長你現在算是政務官你是公務員上來的之前我們在處理進法補償條例的時候很多我原住民的好朋友就跟我講說好啊如果不編的話總統也"},{"start":166.672,"end":191.944,"text":"行政院應該走的權利就是他也不釋憲然後也沒有服務也不釋憲那你又不編的話後面原住民可以去告原委會這個就是所謂的違法扣留的苛扣罪我想法令你應該很清楚依法三讀通過的法案行政院如果沒有疑慮既不走服務也沒有釋憲那就依法應該要照理編列預算"},{"start":196.451,"end":212.473,"text":"今天當然你們有在走相關的程序但是副主席長部長你們是公務人員上來的我要提醒你們如果拒絕相關的法條或者你們現在用你們的很多行政手段"},{"start":213.534,"end":232.965,"text":"財化法走到今天你們還不願意去做相關的面對後面的一些相關應該處理的我覺得後面相關的法律追訴還有監察院的彈劾這是我要提醒你們的地方我覺得該怎麼處理就應該怎麼處理今天走到今天不管你們說預算不夠未來可能有舉債流量的問題"},{"start":234.726,"end":249.879,"text":"事權 錢下放了給地方事權當然也要下放給地方你們到底針對事權你就只有針對垂直分配水平分配錢的部分該怎麼分公事應該怎麼樣去調整做處理但是事權從來沒有好好去討論過"},{"start":253.219,"end":268.38,"text":"我支持前下放地方事權當然也要做討論哪些事情該少做一點哪些事情應該分配給地方責任多一點我覺得應該好好討論但是我現在看到的都"},{"start":269.581,"end":286.986,"text":"變成流於喊話這不是對話這是喊話對於解決事情僵持一點幫助都沒有就是我要提醒部長跟主席長的地方我是不是要補充我們一定會依法行政那跟地方的溝通 市權我們國發會跟主席總處也有找地方來開會"},{"start":288.866,"end":311.999,"text":"你開會只有你講你的然後他們有意見你也不好好聽其實之前也是好幾個縣市都縣市的財政局局長主計處都有跟我講他們對於你們調配的公式他們一直反映意見但他們意見你有聽沒有到沒有用這不是開會你們開會的次數都在最後幾次才開會財化法的修正"},{"start":314.07,"end":333.696,"text":"從賴市長到賴院長到總統到你們上任到現在去年在野黨就提出說要調整財化法但是你們市權的部分討論了幾次到最後你們覺得不得已你們之前的版本行政院財政部根本不提出自己的版本到最後"},{"start":334.776,"end":341.781,"text":"在立法院通過之後你們才在急急忙忙找人來開會找人來處理版本我覺得這樣不是一個處理跟委員說明我們的開會一直在進行中而且中央對地方財政的挹注年年升高到114年達到1兆到115年更大1兆1600多億你整個總預算增加你對地方的補助你這個叫做蚊子遊戲 部長"},{"start":361.155,"end":371.904,"text":"你總預算不斷的膨脹地方那個統籌分配那個分配那個數額越大當然母體數越大當然分配的錢會越多你不要用數字來跟我玩遊戲部長這是我要提醒你不要用文字來糊弄我稅出越多統籌分配的數字比例按照都是按照比例來分配你用這樣來糊弄我就沒有必要了部長"},{"start":389.102,"end":409.702,"text":"我想这是一个事实跟委员在这边的说明无论是财政的整个福气的转移也好你那个都有固定的公式这个我很清楚你都有固定的公式你不要说你有分配的越多收入税出越多当然分配的也会越多但是你相对中央的钱也分配的更多嘛"},{"start":410.242,"end":431.671,"text":"因為那都是按照公司來走中央統籌分配稅款是按照公式但是一般性補助款和計劃型補助款這個部分一般性的補助款也是有公式計劃性的補助款你有多少錢放在那邊也是公式只是說你愛給誰就給誰我今天不要浪費時間說這個但是我是提醒你們在處理財化法不要"},{"start":432.031,"end":456.902,"text":"不要讓公務人員你們自己是公務人員出來了不要違法這是我要提醒你的你的標準哪些要執行哪些不執行你現在不執行包括一般補助款你不執行你的選擇性的條件是什麼跟我們報告我們一般性補助款目前通知地方政府的我們都會執行如果預算115的預算有通過的話會執行"},{"start":458.991,"end":485.92,"text":"你們不是按照我們現在立法院通過的版本主要跟委員說明就是說因為11月14號通過那個版本我們依照預算法8月底預算就要送到立法院然後各地方政委依照地方制度法的期限也都已經送到議會了所以這115年度的預算如果要依照11月14號的版本來回溯是不可能的可以追加預算嗎"},{"start":488.82,"end":515.288,"text":"因為這個牽動的那個因為它那個金額非常大所以那個沒有因為主要還是另外也違反了公共債務法所以它環環相扣所以我就講說事權要調整沒有什麼不能處理的事權調整後面再追加預算都有解決的方法你們現在只是說這個違反公債法流量的上限來去做處理這我要提沒有什麼不能處理的沒有什麼不能討論處理的事權調整"},{"start":518.849,"end":539.928,"text":"中央少做一點 地方多承擔一點都有解決的方法跟方案好 我這個議題沒有不能處理但是我現在強調的就是說像你剛剛講說因為違反公債法所以你們不處理包括像軍人家包括軍人家三萬塊這沒多少錢啊你們現在也是一樣不處理啊"},{"start":541.141,"end":569.518,"text":"那你們不處理都有各式各樣的理由放在那邊就是追加減預算就是如果辦追加減預算也是會違反公共因為我們已經沒有那個空間去調整所以基於會違法的考慮所以沒有辦法處理所以中央事權少做一點地方多做一點那當然是整塊都一起討論調整你現在只是用一個理由丟在外面就是說我們舉賽會超過上限流量會超過上限那我們還有那麼多事情要做你事權"},{"start":570.939,"end":586.152,"text":"跟後面還有追加預算還有其他的還有其他的財政工具可以去處理目前的問題你們現在只是不願意面對這件事不願意面對立法院通過的法案去處理問題這是我要提的我時間達到這邊 我另外一個議題 部長"},{"start":587.273,"end":591.537,"text":"今年賴總統對外講說今年經濟成長非常高所以我們要減稅我們要減稅的部分除了從納稅除了從所得的部分要去做處理我們每人的基本生活費從過去的21萬去年21萬調到21萬3千"},{"start":611.935,"end":628.493,"text":"部長經濟景氣當然很好但是這是一個失溫的經濟成長壽星階級感受不到我想這句話我常常在講部長你也非常清楚零死薪水的他感受不到所以我認為總統這句話在吃"},{"start":632.097,"end":653.049,"text":"所有民眾的豆腐因為你這個該調的基本的生活費它本來就是有公事在做處理本來就有公事無論今年調整的所得稅或長照其實壽星階級真的是感受不到所以部長我最後一句話要提醒的是共享國家經濟的成長"},{"start":655.549,"end":665.055,"text":"如果要去做調整的話應該要有其他的真正的其他的更多的免稅工具讓所有真正白領藍領階級領死薪水的"},{"start":667.878,"end":679.745,"text":"他可以有更多的免稅的一些機會放在裡頭因為總統所講這些免稅和基本生活那個本來就有這些公視在去年是21萬今年調整21萬3千塊這本來就有公視放在那邊不是因為總統因為經濟景氣很好所以我這個公視有調整"},{"start":688.171,"end":702.825,"text":"我沒有講錯吧我覺得跟委員報告委員這樣的照顧民生真的是納稅者的基本生活費用本來每一年都有調整的公司放在那邊那不是因為經濟景氣很好所以總統要求你們去做調整"},{"start":703.626,"end":707.91,"text":"跟委員報告除了稅之外其實政府在社福支出部分達到27%是我們稅出預算裡面最高的所以政府的財政好的時候我們會透過各種方式去照顧需要照顧的民眾我覺得這個還有我們的教育文化支出也是第二高的這個部分都超過了40%兩者相加"},{"start":726.047,"end":744.039,"text":"在我們的總預算裡面是這樣的我今天是拿總統的話要讓所有藍領白領壽星階級還有所有沒有享受到經濟成長的果實這些基礎勞工們感受到政府真正減稅的美意不要拿這些本來應該有的減稅我們要鼓勵企業去給員工們加薪謝謝 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有請部長請部長郭委員你好"},{"start":17.092,"end":37.577,"text":"部長早安我想這個公廣應該是屬於全民以服務公眾應該是唯一的一個宗旨在商業媒體在追求收視跟一些所謂的廣告利潤的同時其實我們應該要更兼顧所謂的多元跟節目上的一個品質來做一個跟商業的區別或者是一些多元的一些制衡"},{"start":38.858,"end":57.733,"text":"但是這個以現階段其實以我最關心的動保為例我想這一整個大概這一兩個月或者是這一兩週其實動保的事件或者是虐貓虐狗的事件或者是苗栗的人人犬社的一個事件這樣子的一個虐貓虐狗的事件頻傳"},{"start":58.733,"end":87.254,"text":"但是在我的观察之下这个公广跟这些所谓的公媒的专题的报道这个数量感觉上明显偏低已经被这个网媒跟一些民间来领先了那我想这个公广的一个任务应该是说我们要针对这个社会的痛点来做一些深入的一个报道是不是可以针对所谓的像居住弱势灾害甚至动保等等这样子的一个议题来设定所谓的公共议题最低的一个产量"},{"start":87.714,"end":104.087,"text":"然後能夠及時反映當下的一些社會議題的一個機制這一點您認同嗎我個人認同但是因為對於公共電視公共媒體他們本身的一些對於新聞的比例我們通常都尊重是"},{"start":105.309,"end":122.307,"text":"所以尊重而已我好像不太能干預說哪一類的新聞要比喻多少我是建議啦就是說我們在公共議題上是不是應該要就是各個公廣的一個不管是什麼樣的一個媒體我們來設計一個最低的一個產量那我覺得這個比較貼近一般"},{"start":127.833,"end":152,"text":"民眾關心的一些重要的議題接下來我想要問的就是這個央廣其實是國家對外的一個最重要的一個聲音那一旦它的系統被破壞或者是被操弄其實就是整個國家形象的一個風險那先前這個遭到駭客入侵這樣子的一個事件其實震驚各界那也是找出了這個當事人那也做了一些處理"},{"start":152.62,"end":177.899,"text":"但是我想這是公共媒體是國家形象的第一線那這件事件整個曝露出來就是資安治理的一個風險那我想其實資安治理並不等於所謂的IT的維運的一個迷思那我想未來這個央廣是不是也願意導入第三方的一個資安的一個集合這也是應該是非常重要會被納入這樣子的一個考量"},{"start":178.459,"end":205.908,"text":"那我接下來想問是不是願意每年接受所謂的外部治安的穿透的測試因為這件事件之後然後再來被害之後的通報流程跟應變的SOP現在有沒有進行全面的檢討或者是全面的更新這是我第二個問題那當然這個案子呢其實這個員工已經離職那但是其實也透露出所謂的像外包廠商或者是全線交接的風險"},{"start":207.188,"end":229.577,"text":"其實這個部分其實是風險是暴露出來的這個風險其實極高那央廣是不是已經建立所謂的公媒系統共通的一個內控的標準那將來是不是在建立所謂的離職轉調或外包廠商他們的即時權限有收回的一個制度那這個是我的第三個問題那另外就是我們願不願意能夠成"},{"start":230.177,"end":236.841,"text":"承諾就是能夠建立所謂的跨單位的資安最低的一個標準那麼包含哪一些"},{"start":237.987,"end":266.612,"text":"原始碼的保存或者是存取的一些記錄還有異常的這些警示那是不是也能夠作為所謂的這一次事件之後的一個檢討或者是示範改善的計畫甚至提供給其他的我們的公廣的集團也可以來作為參考我想把這個個案變成一個政策的一個要求其實我相信這個應該也是我們努力的一個方向目前有沒有朝我剛剛所提的這幾個問題有在進行或者是有在計畫請教"},{"start":267.992,"end":270.917,"text":"我想是不是请央管董事长来给您报告好没问题"},{"start":273.111,"end":301.064,"text":"謝謝委員質詢的確我們在這次資安事件裡頭我們在哪裡跌倒我們就從哪裡站起來我們現在不只是向董事會報告並且要求加強內控之外事實上速發部也馬上提升央廣的關鍵基礎設施資安的最高等級所以我們已經升級了在這個前提之下我們已經接受了許多次的外部的測試報告我們也都有通過"},{"start":301.744,"end":328.846,"text":"那我们这些报告可以提供给我们吗这个算是已经公开可以然后另外我们您刚提到的许多包括原始码如何的保存以及就是防范下次的存取的一些记录或者是异常的一些警讯是的那在资安的部分我们除了加强之外我们对于外部的厂商现在的处理也都有强化"},{"start":329.326,"end":350.156,"text":"所谓的强迫我刚刚讲的就是他们的权限有没有被收回的一些机制历史员工的权限当然是要收回同时我们涉案的两位前同仁不只是开除之外我们现在也对他们提起公诉刑事跟民事的诉讼这个当然"},{"start":350.316,"end":379.142,"text":"因为在司法的程序当中我们就静待这个司法最后的一个调查结果那如果说你们已经有开始做一些改进跟报告还有一些计划是可以公开的再麻烦提供给我们办公室来作为参考好那第二个问题其实我比较想问的就是说我们央广其实这几年我们把这个数位转型当成一个非常重要的一个方向不好意思继续留着那包含这些官网的重建那APP的一些更新还有多余影音的一个平台"},{"start":379.662,"end":405.211,"text":"那我想這個維運的一個成本其實一年也比一年增加那我們可以看到從一百一十一年的兩百九十七萬一路增加到一百一十五年的六百三十五萬但是呢到今年為止我相信已經到十二月了其實已經到十二月我們看到這個一百一十五年的我們的KPI其實是目前還沒有確定那我想這個你們是不先定KPI還是說我們是邊走邊看"},{"start":406.471,"end":432.751,"text":"没有因为我们今年就是受到资安事件的影响我们的KPI受到很大的冲击我们不只是流量受到冲击我们连搜索SEO也都受到冲击所以这个部分有些数字我们正在做最新的调查那另外呢也跟您报告在这部分资安的费用会增加相当的多那有些部分包括我们资安投资所以预算正在"},{"start":433.351,"end":462.068,"text":"也都必须要重估对这个部分是很大的金额所以我们也希望委员能够支持我们增加这方面的预算因为我想提到的就是包含我们的这个就是说我们投入的一个规模来相比这个成效到底有没有跟我们的这个投入的一些规模是成正比的往上那包含其实我接下来问到的就是APP的增加应该是说下载的数量这个三年来是连续在下滑不是只有这个今年的这个治安的部分因为它其实已经到"},{"start":462.688,"end":477.023,"text":"到了一個就是我們不把APP作為最主下載的數字當然因為我們還有其他的一些我們強調的是其他的數字以及我們這幾年強化的是短影音還有在網路上的"},{"start":479.325,"end":496.463,"text":"那因为我们的受众我们的海外观众跟在台湾的移工他们喜欢的是直播所以呢在这个部分我们强化的是这个部分但是在APP您所关心的部分我们其实停留而且使用的人数还"},{"start":497.324,"end":516.023,"text":"但是不是只有APP我刚刚只讲到一半那另外包含所谓的我们的媒体的用户还有我们的广播的这个收听的受众还有一些多项的指标其实它这个数字不是停滞它是有一点点往下滑那刚刚就我所提到的也许因为你们因为资安的事件所以现在我们的"},{"start":518.344,"end":540.016,"text":"115年的我们的KPI其实目前都还没有定定最快什么时候可以定下一些标准因为我们没有KPI其实我们就没有这样子的一个指标可以去对照那我想这个是因为单一的个案的一个事件的影响影响到你们之后的KPI的设置那请问你们KPI最快什么时候可以出来我们希望能够在今年重新盘整年底"},{"start":540.436,"end":569.478,"text":"之前重新判证之后我们尽快的提出但是详细的日期我是不是能够在跟同仁讨论之后主管都已经确认在跟您报告好 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时间暂停一下请社长请回我请一下我们的公事董事长跟我们台湾Plus的执行长"},{"start":244.677,"end":244.9,"text":"我也好"},{"start":246.533,"end":275.328,"text":"董事長執行長我請教一個問題10月9號我們針對台灣plus針對12強的紀錄片這個紀錄片根據你們所給我們的資料他的經費是120萬元但是詭異的事情是10月9號上架之後12強的紀錄片我相信很多人都期待10月9號上架之後消失"},{"start":276.584,"end":295.489,"text":"两个多月了消失了两个月到现在原因不明请问一下为什么一个耗资120万的纪录片上架之后不明不埋的消失请问一下原因是什么你们有做什么处理里面有没有人员有疏失"},{"start":296.533,"end":312.38,"text":"跟委員報告這件事情因為我們委託的廠商他在取得授權的時候其中都是跟台灣我們中華棒協取得授權但其中有一小段是愛爾達的畫面愛爾達不給你們不是不給我們是因為是委託廠商去辦那他漏了那個授權我們請他補正"},{"start":313.22,"end":330.84,"text":"那這個一來一往的時候我們為了慎重先把影片下架經過中華棒協還有WBSC就是世界棒壘協會同意了以後我們在11月28號晚間已經重新在頻道播出那現在因為線上播出正在安排檔期會再回覆到檔會再回覆會"},{"start":331.661,"end":350.378,"text":"好的,这段时间有没有人员需要做检讨,或者是需要这个惩处?是,我们两个方向,一个是厂商,因为在验收的时候,有一些验收上的瑕疵我们会跟厂商求偿,那另外一个就是我们内部人员检讨,检讨将来在验收还有在版权作业上应该更为谨慎,作为一个案例。"},{"start":350.418,"end":377.734,"text":"我覺得你們應該提早跟外界說明因為這個理由其實之前你們沒有對外界很詳細的說明都是外界猜測是應該跟版權有關係大家認為台灣plus作為一個國家經營的一個影音頻道不應該有版權侵權的問題然後一個十二強的紀錄片大家這麼期待然後上架之後就這樣把它下架下架好好久然後也沒有一個"},{"start":378.154,"end":400.887,"text":"很清楚的說明這是台灣Plus其實我覺得台灣Plus有很多問題但是因為我時間到了主席也站起來了那有關於監察院所提出來的一些檢討我覺得你們應該要有一些書面書面的 裡面比如說剛才林苑琦委員特別問到的裡面她講的一個是紐西蘭的顧問從來沒來過台灣但是她每天來負責選稿"},{"start":404.65,"end":421.97,"text":"我覺得這些監察院所提出來的相關的問題你們應該提出書面的檢討報告給文化部剛才部長就還說我也看我懂監察院在講什麼這不是很離譜嗎我們都有報給董事會已經報告文化部這邊來那部長都沒看"},{"start":424.513,"end":439.749,"text":"這代表部長沒有看剛剛林業勤委員問然後部長好像都在狀況外說搞不清楚監察院在講什麼所以這個部分也拜託可以提供給我們委員了解就是你們有哪些有真正有解討跟改進好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝王煌委員"}]}},{"id":"166336","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166336","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0b8aba36880406f31ed0cecc406237e96a16ad5de198b72013a469af2c92659b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"12:52:44 - 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為什麼我會這樣問 因為根據TimePlus的官網所說他們是台灣一個專為國際觀眾提供英語節目的一個平台只在向全球展示台灣的多元面貌 可是我們先來看關於TimePlus的新聞從主管不斷的更換到"},{"start":66.799,"end":86.588,"text":"離職主管的放話甚至到監察院的調查報告都一再顯示內部管理的問題始終都是沒有解決監察院調查報告甚至直接指出說湯姆拉斯的決策過程呈現方式完全沒有展現台灣的特色請問文化部你們覺得台灣的特色是什麼是台灣腔調的英語是嗎我沒有懂他那個監察院報告裡台灣特色什麼意思"},{"start":94.844,"end":112.265,"text":"是他報告的講說他講是說沒有展現台灣特色報告的內容沒有台灣特色因為台灣特色這四個字很籠統是那我們就先來細看監察院的報告裡面提到非常多讓我覺得驚訝的問題首先"},{"start":112.966,"end":127.044,"text":"就是竟然有主管因为台湾人有台湾腔调的英语而拒绝台湾人上主播台播报那这是什么理由啊这公平吗文化部这个我想请这个执行长来报告"},{"start":128.015,"end":157.379,"text":"各位委員好各位委員報告這其實是因為本國籍的同仁在播報的時候那當然我們需要經過一點訓練我們當然還是用台灣本身自己的英語發音來表述但是在口條訓練上面是應該要經過一點練習會比較好這是我們原先的一個期望可是平台內部如果對播報人員安排如果不合理的情形譬如說甚至有職場霸凌目前沒有跟歧視的話可是根據現在調查來看現在播報人員也有英美"},{"start":158.035,"end":179.634,"text":"硬扭那为何特别排斥台湾口音有很多本国籍的同仁我觉得如果有台湾口音就不行吗口音有时候也是地方的一个特色而不是因为成为能不能播报的一个原因所在再来就是请问文化部你们觉得台湾的文化特色谁最了解是外国人还是台湾人"},{"start":180.473,"end":186.397,"text":"台湾人啊是啊那所以应该没有人比自己更了解自己吧结果却由外籍主管"},{"start":211.214,"end":228.372,"text":"已經解決了因為這是一個最早成立這個時候因為要大量需要一些講英語的這種播報員所以剛開始是一個過渡時期現在您剛才講這些問題隨著由台灣的記者跟主播增加我想逐漸解決這個問題"},{"start":230.223,"end":251.305,"text":"我要特別強調,我不是反對外籍的一個主管,而是既然這是屬於台灣人的頻道,因為我們要把台灣推廣出去嘛,走出去,就應該要有台灣人的那個意志,在制度的設計、人員的編排跟決策過程,都應該要存在台灣人的聲音,而不是換了台灣衣服的外國頻道,連台灣腔調的英文都沒有辦法出聲啦。"},{"start":253.107,"end":278.224,"text":"最后我想问的是我过去曾经质询过我们台湾儿少原生节目比例偏低的问题而文化部也编列预算推动了黑潮文化计划欲提升台湾的儿少影视内容的一个自制量能也催生了小公式我觉得这非常好专属儿少节目也希望打造台湾版的宝可梦可是迈向过去"},{"start":278.924,"end":303.696,"text":"可是过了一年了我想问文化部我们的宝可梦出现了吗那个宝可梦有没有出现我不太确定但是我们的在有限的预算里面已经做了很多的儿少节目我们真的有让孩子喜欢愿意主动收看的代表性作品吗有吗那这点我是不是请儿少台来请我们的好的"},{"start":304.729,"end":322.322,"text":"謝謝委員我們其實今年也是持續除了去年一開台有24檔新制節目今年有32檔那其中動畫的部分因為動畫製作真的比較花時間所以其實今年下半年已經有兩檔動畫上映了那其中我是陳派派我覺得他們他的這個成績相當不錯"},{"start":322.982,"end":338.187,"text":"那另外我們的口袋小子就是小兒童開台的口袋小子我們其實也在做多元的規劃包括短的影音動畫以及後面它的一些唱跳的影音我們後面都有持續的規劃當然希望有遊戲公司跟我們一起合作來開發台灣的寶可夢"},{"start":342.859,"end":369.274,"text":"還是要問文化部真的掌握到兒少真正想要的是什麼我也肯定文化部這一年確實有提升兒少的節目的自制率可是我更關心的到底有沒有去掌握孩子的收視行為跟喜好沒有掌握的話你很難對應為什麼現在的兒少的收視環境已經跟過去完全不太一樣了不只是電視他們可能是在小公司NetflixYouTube"},{"start":369.774,"end":395.795,"text":"手機平板都有可能收看內容所以期待你們就是我比較想知道說到底他們平常有沒有去調你們有沒有去調查說到底我們兒少觀看的節目類型是什麼哪些內容孩子比較喜歡收視跟點閱率的變化跟趨勢我們的族群差異文化部是不是有掌握那黑潮計畫跟小公視現階段的成果到底有沒有真正被兒少接受剛剛我想總經理都有講可是"},{"start":396.716,"end":422.294,"text":"到底接受度是什麼所以請問會不會一個月內提供我完整的資料來給我可以嗎 部長好 可以 沒問題那我也想問目前我們的黑草計畫在執行可是我想問是目前有哪些節目是有兒少親自參與編劇因為既然是他們要看的我們講兒少參與權非常重要那有沒有兒少參與有關於這點我是不是也請總經理來回答"},{"start":425.808,"end":442.681,"text":"其实目前儿少参与编剧的我们只有节目的讨论的时候可不可以邀因为我们现在政府部门的所有很多会议都会邀请他们来共同参与来才知道说他们想要什么需要什么或想看什么"},{"start":442.841,"end":472.581,"text":"我们现在是在我们的儿影的评审有儿童评审我们是先做到这个其实很多的制作的部分我们现在也会希望邀请儿少来一起参与所以我要求文化部儿少节目的政策要制度化去纳入到儿少的意见要从孩子的视角来看儿少回馈也应该成为你政策调整的一个依据黑潮计划成果除了拍了多少之外更要回答孩子看不看喜不喜欢看"},{"start":473.663,"end":480.199,"text":"再麻烦把相关资料给我们办公室谢谢部长谢谢林月琴委员"}]}},{"id":"166335","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166335","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c06c2b9ecae5a02196ff56a78bd28eb1224f1120d908022d4d2a31a243c72cc49e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:32:19 - 12:53:14","影片長度":"00:20:55","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 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台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T12:32:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T12:53:14+08:00","duration":1255,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.86596875,"end":4.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":4.620968749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.620968749999999,"end":4.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.63784375,"end":4.6715937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":4.840343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.840343750000001,"end":5.177843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.177843750000001,"end":5.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.535968750000002,"end":9.379718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.801593750000002,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.80159375,"end":48.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.462218750000005,"end":55.195343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.34721875,"end":56.595968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.00534375,"end":56.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.71409375,"end":95.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.52659375,"end":96.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.97784375,"end":99.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.57659375,"end":101.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.25971875,"end":112.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.97534375000001,"end":114.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.10159375,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.03284375,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.05471875,"end":174.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.22721875000002,"end":180.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.21784375000001,"end":191.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.03471875000002,"end":197.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.31221875,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.73596875,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.84534375,"end":216.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.72284375,"end":225.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.70034375,"end":230.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.27346875,"end":278.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.62034375,"end":285.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.24784375,"end":287.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.47971875,"end":292.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.67721875,"end":293.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.92596875000004,"end":299.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.76471875000004,"end":306.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.62846875,"end":312.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.24346875000003,"end":314.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.28971875,"end":320.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.79096875000005,"end":358.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.84846875,"end":360.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.71721875000003,"end":374.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.28221875,"end":363.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.96409375,"end":380.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.52096875,"end":376.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.54971875,"end":381.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.06409375000004,"end":383.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.08909375,"end":386.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.12659375000004,"end":397.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.61096875000004,"end":392.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.77971875000003,"end":392.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.96534375000005,"end":393.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.20534375,"end":396.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.25596875,"end":396.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.75784375,"end":400.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.58846875,"end":406.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.17409375000005,"end":410.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.71346875,"end":413.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.67096875000004,"end":418.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.29034375000003,"end":422.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.60596875000005,"end":424.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.21346875,"end":442.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.73409375000006,"end":445.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.07971875000004,"end":444.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.61534375,"end":447.50534375}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部長陳委員好"},{"start":10.061,"end":35.568,"text":"部長好那近幾年呢這個早期療癒的服務是逐漸完善其實台灣也算做得不錯那但是呢本席也看到一個越來越明顯的問題那現在有這個各縣市的這個早療服務大部分都是在6歲前政府大量投入這個人力跟資源但是進入國小之後那邁入這個青少年"},{"start":37.969,"end":54.762,"text":"這個青年甚至成年之後呢我想了解一下就是衛福部到底做了什麼有哪些支持的這個系統跟持續的訓練然後來協助這些原先有需要幫助的這些孩子們"},{"start":56.923,"end":80.814,"text":"是跟委員說明大概我們一方面去發展這個早期療癒的資源整合中心因為先有這個評估然後這個是由我們國健署主導的這個評估聯合評估中心然後再去按照他的需要去安排後續的早期療癒的相關服務"},{"start":81.354,"end":94.519,"text":"那當然我們現在確實學齡前的是比較多那學齡後的話主要就是在醫院服務醫療機構服務這邊為主 自行它就會回到健保的體系主要在健保體系裡面去執行"},{"start":96.278,"end":112.104,"text":"其實部長這樣回答可能在實務上我們沒有辦法對照得到一些比較具體的答案因為確實我們了解多數的資源就是說在六歲之後"},{"start":113.044,"end":138.541,"text":"看起來都比較集中是在這個中重度障礙或者是攝服認定的高需求的個案但事實上呢有很多完成藻尿之後的特別是高功能的兒童他們的語言跟認知能力因為四肢健全嘛那但是就是說甚至語言認知能力看起來是正常的但是實際上"},{"start":139.922,"end":157.295,"text":"最需要支持的例如说交友社交的互动然后执行的功能还有情绪的调节还有校园跟社会适应我举例比如说孩子们"},{"start":158.616,"end":174.529,"text":"長大了邁入這個青春期他們也開始會對異性會產生興趣那甚至譬如說上大學之後也會很想交女朋友但是或者交男朋友但是呢"},{"start":176.271,"end":195.608,"text":"缺乏對就是說他們不知道怎麼樣用大眾可以接受的方式去互動所以常常會被投訴甚至有的被送去警察局告他們性騷所以這些其實到最後都產生了一些社會的問題"},{"start":199.059,"end":214.827,"text":"這些跨部門的這個銜接幾乎都是由家長們自行在摸索那也因為他們就是說剛剛講的缺乏一般人的這個認知跟辨識能力有時候甚至連對方的喜怒哀樂"},{"start":215.928,"end":238.236,"text":"都沒有辦法很正確的分辨所以更容易造成像最近詐騙集團這個詐騙集團的這個盛行他們也很容易就是說成為被詐騙的目標那當然這些都有實際的案例所以我今天特別也正是這個問題在這邊提出"},{"start":240.157,"end":256.141,"text":"所以針對這個部分 本席在去年也有提出一個組決議要求衛福部針對不同階段高功能者所需要的療癒繳制課程需求的進度調查盤點現有的資源 並且有要求你們在六個月內要提出經濟改善計畫和推動的時程規劃"},{"start":259.002,"end":285.525,"text":"那當時新建司社家署國建署還有健保署都推來推去的跟本席之前推的一些方案都是一樣推來推去最後呢是由新建司來主責我想這也是凸顯了就是說這些高功能的障礙者呢在找療之後的資源其實是被忽略的"},{"start":286.286,"end":312.399,"text":"那因為威福部裡面你們沒有任何一個單位就認為這是自己應該做的業務那我想要請教部長現在已經過了一年了那威福部是否有掌握早療後持續需要服務的這些孩子們的人數跟需求還有資源盤點的到底是怎麼樣的可不可以請你們回答"},{"start":316.027,"end":336.241,"text":"確實像委員提到對於這個早期療癒的部分因為他過去都是比較著重在學齡前確實是這樣因為要早期介入那麼希望他能夠盡量回歸到這個他的後面的這個學習成長能夠跟正常的孩子相當所以都是放在在前面"},{"start":337.122,"end":360.042,"text":"那麼又善在不同的部門所以第一個我們在現在的這個行政院版本要成立的兒少及家庭支持署裡面就會把這個兒少的早期療癒整合在這個單位所以以後事權讓他合一所以這個是第一個第二個剛剛提到你說未來會合一"},{"start":360.783,"end":386.173,"text":"就是说这个早期疗愈现在的相关业务有些可能会上载在社家署或者是这个新建师或者是国建署那以后这个儿少的早期疗愈那部长你可不可以再讲一下儿少儿少还是儿少啊儿少及家庭支持署这样对但是这些人即便他再继续成长"},{"start":387.193,"end":409.63,"text":"已經過了兒少的這個年齡在邁入成年之後一樣他們都還是會需要協助的因為在其實這一群高功能的障礙者你好好的訓練他們 輔佐他們他們是可以成為這社會上有貢獻的人"},{"start":411.752,"end":421.992,"text":"但是如果你們就這樣放生了放生家長 放生這群孩子們那後續就會產生很多社會的問題"},{"start":425.279,"end":447.031,"text":"我了解就是說我們剛剛提到兒少當然我們是到18歲啦那委員關心的是說那成年之後18歲以後那他同樣會有這種社交或者是這個生活上他的需要的協助那我們看看即便上大學在學習上他們也都很需要幫忙"},{"start":448.976,"end":471.534,"text":"所以這個部分不是說只有說接下來教育部接手然後或者是哪個單位接手因為在你們各個單位不管是怎麼接手並沒有連結我要提一個我觀察了一個很奇特的現象在台大的兒童心智科進去我們看到的"},{"start":472.395,"end":492.851,"text":"不是只有兒童其實有更多的青少年甚至已經是成年的大孩子們都還是要去掛兒童心智科那我不知道你們有沒有注意到這個奇特的現象因為他們沒有地方去啊不曉得要掛什麼"},{"start":495.683,"end":519.404,"text":"如果是已经是成人的那他就是挂成人精神科比较不会去儿童精神科我们在医院里面是有分科除非他是因为对这个医师啊长期的性认关系异病关系所以他确实有很多的不然的话是走的是那个成人精神科就不是儿童心不是儿心的"},{"start":520.151,"end":537.679,"text":"但我這樣凸顯並不是說實際上的這樣子的的一些問診治療是不對的不是這樣而是說實際上的需求跟我們整個制度上的規劃其實是產生了很大的問題那這個部分"},{"start":541.121,"end":564.458,"text":"你們剛剛也都還沒有回答剛剛有人上來協助來支援部長但是你給部長什麼答案過了12個月你們有沒有掌握這個早療後持續需求就是到底持續需求服務的這些孩子們的人數你們有沒有盤出來了給你們一年的時間你們算出來了沒有"},{"start":565.939,"end":594.032,"text":"我聽到的我了解的是說還沒有盤點完這個需求啦這個需求調查好像還沒有完成那部長這個一年的時間是您認為太少還是足夠還是業務單位他們不夠積極你們會部長認為說大概這個需要多少時間還是根本盤不出來可以"},{"start":597.895,"end":609.086,"text":"我們還是要找專家學者來委託他們來執行這個計畫這個計畫我們盡可能在未來六個月看能不能把它完成這樣"},{"start":610.37,"end":626.347,"text":"好的孩子們都每天每天都在長大所以我還是希望大家可以跟時間賽跑一下那部長就是說當家長的必須在這個教育醫療還有社政三個系統當中來回奔走"},{"start":627.168,"end":652.219,"text":"每個單位都說這不是我們的業務那衛福部你們是不是就到底有沒有認知到說這樣的制度設計導致說家長長期承擔高壓的照顧跟溝通的成本交通也是啊因為剛剛講說如果長期從小長期我們就是都是固定由一位特定的醫師組織醫師來"},{"start":657.66,"end":682.066,"text":"來診療的話那有些有些因為搬遷那或者有些像在東部地區或者偏鄉就比較少這樣子的早期就比較少這樣的資源的時候那一開始就是固定在北部這種交通往返的成本都是很高的耶所以你們是不是就是說"},{"start":683.551,"end":698.572,"text":"剛剛六個月的盤點我是真的覺得太久了除非除非部長你要不要讓他們講一下他們到底有遇到什麼困難我請那個我們興建師的陳市長說為什麼還需要半年所以前後加起來是一年半搞不好還做不出來"},{"start":700.464,"end":724.883,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子目前已經有委託給國衛院那國衛院跟那個我們有請台大醫院兒童心智就是兒童心神科醫師來做這個調查的確是這個他們在青少年之後的需求包括社區的需求還有長期的這個照顧的需求你們什麼時候委託出去的這個月這個月我體驗過了一年你們這個月才委託出去你這樣會不會太不像話了我們會盡速來做這很誇張欸你們啊"},{"start":731.226,"end":757.712,"text":"所以半年時間這樣有夠嗎 部長我是不怪你啦你剛上任 那個興建師師長你也是剛來嘛所以前面那些都在幹什麼每個案子推來推去都有他們的份耶這一定是不良紀錄在我心裡我會督促那個儘早把這個需求調查看能不能盡快的完成這樣"},{"start":759.005,"end":788.409,"text":"好因為我要講一下就是說其實因為我真的遇到很多案例我們服務處也接到過陳情就是這些高功能的孩子們長大之後真的就好幾個就我們常常要去派出所去把這些人安撫帶回來因為大家不了解你們又推來推去的所以這個部分拜託等於從零開始嘛就半年半年"},{"start":791.726,"end":810.094,"text":"不好意思我就再多問一個問題就結束我們看一下上個月的內政部公佈的原住民族檢疫生意表題要分析依照111年的統計原住民族與全體國民的平均餘命差距為6.19歲113年已經擴大到7.54歲"},{"start":813.996,"end":830.749,"text":"所以這個原住民族與這個全體國民平均一命的差距在這幾年已經不再呈現這個縮小的差距那部長你怎麼看這個圖表本來好好的103到111都下降我們的所有的統計數字那麼在這幾年因為這個疫情的影響都產生了"},{"start":837.935,"end":861.338,"text":"偏離趨勢的情形在Covid這三年當中我們各項數字都一樣包含其他的死因統計也都受到影響像十大死因在過去這幾年Covid就跑進來了變成十大死因當中的一項過去是沒有的所以各項的統計數字在這一段期間內都受到影響"},{"start":862.679,"end":887.044,"text":"所以我們現在看到的113年的數字確實是這樣我們必須要認識這個數字但是未來的趨勢是怎樣呢我們會去細部去分析到底這個死因有沒有什麼變化就是死亡人數上去回溯看看他的死因上有沒有什麼不同那麼我們再來看看需不需要有一些介入的措施"},{"start":887.484,"end":903.122,"text":"我想這樣子的趨勢不是我們樂見的情形不管是什麼樣的原因我們都要再想辦法趕快再恢復到讓它是一個下降的趨勢那在2023年通過原住民族健康法之後衛福部到底做了哪些"},{"start":903.923,"end":923.085,"text":"努力好因為看起來這兩年多好像都是在開會而已比較沒有具體的這個健康政策來確定在推動好那而且國衛院目前為止還是只有在這個健康資料庫的建置而已所以這部分部長不曉得有沒有什麼回應"},{"start":923.926,"end":938.181,"text":"已經有一些具體要進行的方向那麼包含那個國衛院的主題也已經把它設定出來未來的原住民族研究的重點議題"},{"start":939.082,"end":963.071,"text":"也把它如列出來了那另外呢相關的計畫也陸續會去徵求而且呢都會要求主持人或者是協同主持人也必須具有這個原住民族的身份那其次呢也有這個責定一些醫院我們的醫院來辦理這個原住民族的友善醫院"},{"start":963.891,"end":987.262,"text":"做一個示範那麼大概有這一些陸陸續續在推動的好 謝謝因為原住民族健康法其實石部長當年其實真的是這部法案的一個很重要的一個推手追隨委員推動這個立法"},{"start":988.622,"end":1007.772,"text":"你也追得很好啦這個部分就是說我們好 我們再繼續努力這樣子對 但重要的是這個台東成功跟長濱的這個智慧手環的這個事辦計畫兩年已經今天剩下幾天就到齊了"},{"start":1009.993,"end":1028.892,"text":"因為我請衛福部研議就是說能不能再延長這個部分請教你們研議的結果會 會 還再延長一年來收集這個更多的資料來做評估好 那這是個好消息因為我前天到"},{"start":1029.893,"end":1043.669,"text":"到成功去跟那些老人家講說你們的手錶只會動到今年的12月31號的凌晨就還會再繼續好那因為那個就是說針對獨居老人的問題"},{"start":1044.95,"end":1060.193,"text":"台東的獨居老人他其實在比例是全國最高已經是百分之二十幾了所以這關懷及服務獨居老人的措施在我們台東是很重要的一環那我"},{"start":1060.814,"end":1085.921,"text":"就是說目前那個縣府他們有的這個獨居老人智能守護緊急救護的服務就是說他們是這個部分就是說獨居長者佩戴急救呼叫跟定位的手環其實只限於經濟弱勢跟行動不便的長者但本席認為因為台東的整個它是地形是很狹長有緊急狀況的時候"},{"start":1088.522,"end":1110.544,"text":"就是说你如果发现太慢他往北送往南送或往中古县那边送其实都会花很多时间都会耽误到那再来我们的这个医护比比例也是比其他的这个县市比这个都会区要要这个少很多低很多所以这个部分我们是不是就可以"},{"start":1111.846,"end":1126.079,"text":"在之前我有特別呼籲嘛有要求說希望針對這個照顧獨居老人的部分中央可以提出相關的政策那這個部分請問衛福部你們規劃怎麼樣那是不是也可以擴大"},{"start":1127.22,"end":1144.896,"text":"跟委員報告說我們特別在行政院有這個撥了這個特別條例那個任性特別條例的特別預算有有我們衛福部有爭取到62億專門要放在這個獨居老人那這裡面"},{"start":1145.717,"end":1168.391,"text":"的這個項目工作項目裡面就包含緊急救援裝置所以不再會限制在中低收入戶或行動不便者而是有需求的長者特別是獨居的所以這個對象上已經有放寬有放寬擴大老老算老老算兩個都是老的算"},{"start":1168.911,"end":1180.456,"text":"那第二個我們會去成立一個專案辦公室的輔導團隊因為怕這個各縣市在執行上有它的不一致性或者是不夠專業的協助那我們會有一個計畫來做輔導"},{"start":1187.439,"end":1206.459,"text":"專家的這個團隊那會從這個特別會去關懷這個在花東或者是醫療資源比較欠缺的基金會列為我們優先輔導的這個對焦緯的縣市也是相當有幫助的他今天有在場也可以算他一份有有一定算一定算所以"},{"start":1210.43,"end":1230.042,"text":"就是但因為回到剛剛那個原住民那個平均餘命的那個差距我們目前還是沒有跟上所以在這個原住民獨居老人的適用年齡的部分目前是65嘛就是說我們新的那個方案那這個部分是不是你們可以再研議再把它"},{"start":1230.882,"end":1249.821,"text":"下降在我們平均餘命這個還沒有縮短到一個很很接近的一個標準之前我們是不是還可以延續這個55歲的部分我們可以來演繹可以來演繹在原住民的部分看看是不是有比較寬鬆的那你們是不是一個月的時間演繹再回報好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝趙偉謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166509","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166509","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38dedb14e2f3570baa514f3108ccd2449ecb9f93c172c55134b43db1a5ad2bf66367c9c5a82321895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:10:45 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【12月10日及11日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T09:10:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T09:14:33+08:00","duration":228,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-4-20-12"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.232218750000001,"end":12.332843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.602843750000002,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.53409375,"end":35.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.83534375,"end":38.674718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.96159375,"end":51.195968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.46596875,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.02221875,"end":60.190343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.96659375,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.25159375,"end":78.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.41096875000001,"end":122.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.64034375000001,"end":194.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.95409375,"end":209.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.16284375,"end":214.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.52909375000002,"end":226.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.96596875,"end":228.16409375}],"whisperx":[]}},{"id":"17110","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17110","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6859c8519356ec592c258d85e2d08749d24d5e67b2ed5162375781640d8f86389d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-10","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-10T08:30:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T16:54:00+08:00","duration":30193,"影片長度":"08:23:13","委員發言時間":"08:30:47 - 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對不對"},{"start":1171.452,"end":1191.71,"text":"主席各位同事各位媒體朋友這十多年來身障者的權益一次又一次的被忽視我們看到的是無障礙的問題在倒退資訊是越來越不好取得個人助理的時間始終不足甚至台鐵的無障礙措施的協助服務又開始出錯甚至延誤"},{"start":1194.392,"end":1212.595,"text":"那我今天要負責任告訴大家台灣民眾黨的這個所提出來的身心障礙者權益保障法的修正查案是按照身障者的訴求CRPD的精神以及參考其他國家的做法一條一條把它寫到我們的法案裡那我們的版本有三個重點"},{"start":1213.336,"end":1228.204,"text":"第一把可及性清楚入法不只是建築入權還包括交通網站資訊平台也就是交通部跟台鐵不能夠再沒有預算更新後再來改善的理由來推脫"},{"start":1229.204,"end":1256.412,"text":"第二个个人助理服务以使用者自主为核心民地个人助理服务要涵盖十一住行工作参与政治参与等生活各个面向而且必须以使用者自主为原则并设置独立的监督跟申诉机构避免时数不足还有审查不透明等等再度发生呼应自立生活的精神第三将去机构化及社区支持明确入法"},{"start":1256.832,"end":1266.897,"text":"任何人都不應該被迫離開他的家庭自己的社區政府必須提供交通住房同儕的支援讓你們真正有選擇的自由CRPD告訴我們人權不是一個口號而是政府應該要主動積極去實現的承諾"},{"start":1275.342,"end":1290.857,"text":"每一位障礙的朋友都應該像所有人一樣都能夠自由選擇的自己的生活能夠被尊重被理解而且也能夠帶著尊嚴走在這片土地上希望各位同事能夠支持台灣民眾黨的版本謝謝好謝謝我們的陳昭日委員那接下來請林楚英委員發言"},{"start":1306.419,"end":1332.822,"text":"謝謝主席各位立院同仁出席的官員以及媒體朋友本席今天有兩項提案身心障礙者權益保障法第10條的修正案以及身心障礙者權益保障法第71條條文的修正案核心都是相同的就是希望讓身心障礙者不只是被服務而是成為真正擁有權力有能夠參與決策的人第一個修法是把身心障礙"},{"start":1333.863,"end":1351.328,"text":"者權益推動小組正式寫到法律裡面給他清楚定位及應有的權責本席的版本障礙者代表最終計算起來至少要達到四分之一這也呼應了過去衛福部所期待"},{"start":1352.068,"end":1369.075,"text":"不過委員會裡也有同仁提出更高比例的方案我認為這是一個非常好的現象代表國會正在往更進步更符合CRPD的精神的方向來進行討論那麼未來逐條審查整合版本時本席也願意讓障礙者"},{"start":1369.915,"end":1396.791,"text":"更能真正的上桌的方案納進來討論因為這部法律不只是有中央要設地方同樣的也要遵守既然才劃法都已經讓地方擁有更多的預算更多的資源那麼我們更同步的賦予相同的權責讓制度不只是框架而是更能夠運作而第二個修法則是補足長期被忽視的月經平權問題障礙女性面對的不只是一般"},{"start":1397.691,"end":1421.422,"text":"生理衛生用品必須解決的問題而是更高的成本更高的負擔以及更高的健康風險那有人因為無法自行操作只能選擇酷刑或是特殊材質的生理用品有人因為長期臥床只能用更昂貴的夜用型又或者是加厚版費用比一般的這個非障礙女性要高出好幾倍"},{"start":1422.082,"end":1440.005,"text":"那麼C島清楚的指出了健康不是特權而是國家必須保障的基本權責障礙女性因為經濟負擔而減少更換次數更是已經不只是不變而是制度所造成的健康風險那本席這次所提出的兩項修法"},{"start":1440.566,"end":1466.443,"text":"都一個是強化參與讓障礙者有真正的席位一個是補上性別差異讓健康權落到每一個人的生活裡面共同面對都是相同的問題就是制度長期沒有真正的看到障礙者的困境所以希望在討論的時候大院當中院會當中的每一個同仁都能夠支持本席的修法謝謝好謝謝林柱英委員"},{"start":1469.415,"end":1480.209,"text":"因為聽打的訊號有些狀況我們先休息五分鐘讓他們再處理否則鏡頭前面可能很多我們的身障朋友是聽不到的我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":1499.753,"end":1520.657,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1522.239,"end":1536.103,"text":"就是對他們"},{"start":1635.477,"end":1635.497,"text":"802 或 901"},{"start":1657.772,"end":1666.959,"text":"對 他們如果中午有空的話可以跟我們聯絡一下中午的話 對對對對就是看他們知道什麼時間 對對對是對嗯 對"},{"start":1683.796,"end":1712.077,"text":"喔 那OK 那可不可以幫我跟他們 如果家屬就是我的收養師就是這種 享用的對 是好好 那現在你在口中怎麼時段可以我然後我就請那個 就是收養師過去就是用他這樣子謝謝 謝謝 好 拜拜"},{"start":1715.144,"end":1742.733,"text":"太短了,我讓妳繼續看著,昨晚就是這麼緊張,因為這是個大課,就是像是手,就是這個,我忘記了,"},{"start":1761.323,"end":1769.464,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":1791.633,"end":1795.655,"text":"好現在繼續開會我們現在請衛福部時部長報告及說明時間10分鐘主席還有各位委員今天衛福部陳大院所屬進行身心障礙者的特教"},{"start":1820.339,"end":1847.69,"text":"融合就業服務及自立生活現況來進行專案報告那麼並就身心障礙者權益保障法的部分條文修正草案來列席表示意見那麼敬請各位委員不定指教那麼本部為身心障礙者權益保障法的主管機關來負責身心障礙者的人格維護經濟安全照顧支持等相關權益之規劃推動及監督事項"},{"start":1850.211,"end":1866.364,"text":"至於身心障礙者的教育權益的維護以及就業促進與保障的事項則分別由教育部勞動部來主責那麼為了協助身心障礙者能夠在社區中自立生活那麼本部已經將自立生活"},{"start":1867.205,"end":1887.988,"text":"的支持服務納入身權法第50條的法定服務項目內同時呢那麼依據身權法第51條第二項的授權那麼訂定身心障礙者個人照顧服務辦法那麼訂定各項的這個自立生活的服務"},{"start":1888.869,"end":1903.285,"text":"支援還有相關規定事項來協助增長者能在社區中自立生活那麼目前依照需求的評估有使用自立生活服務意願的障礙者得有專業"},{"start":1903.846,"end":1917.494,"text":"專業人員協助擬定自立生活計畫並依計畫盤點可獲得的福利服務及人力協助資源那麼經與障礙者確認申請服務內容後那麼組成專業團隊進行審查並邀請"},{"start":1922.037,"end":1942.199,"text":"障礙者列席參與審查會議那麼使其可充分的表達意見那麼相比於111年114年所編列的自立生活相關預算已經達4億123萬餘元那麼經費成長是有三倍的成長而個人助理"},{"start":1942.799,"end":1948.041,"text":"使用的服務人數在113年那麼為1326人成長了46%服務時數也達28萬餘小時成長42%而同儕的支持服務的人數那麼也成長了"},{"start":1962.527,"end":1987.087,"text":"111% 那麼服務時數為4471小時 成長81%那麼為了精進者本項的服務那麼也持續的調整有關提升個人助理的補助標準將個人助理的調整為聘僱制 以保障勞動權益也將致富額調整為定額制來減輕身障朋友的負擔"},{"start":1988.288,"end":2016.587,"text":"而目前呢那麼自立生活支持服務方案仍然有一些問題需要解決那麼包括重度障礙者所反映的服務時數的不足或者是各縣市的執行的情形缺乏一致的標準那麼或者是自立生活支持服務缺乏保險的機制等等所以為了解決上街的問題那麼未來呢我們也持續的朝幾個方向來精進那麼首先呢那麼會去嚴厲"},{"start":2017.788,"end":2033.39,"text":"沿你长期照顾跟自立生活的个人助理两项的服务系统之间如何可以做衔接的模式来整合相关的服务资源让高服务时数使用的需求者"},{"start":2033.931,"end":2049.206,"text":"的重度障礙那麼可以獲得世界的人力支持服務那麼支持其與社區中自立生活那麼第二呢是我們也會努力的來訂定自立生活支持服務的一致性規定那麼透過呢修訂"},{"start":2050.968,"end":2078.849,"text":"身權法第五十一條第二項授權的身心障礙者個人照顧服務辦法裡面那麼對於審查的流程服務的內容專業的團隊還有一些表單的一致性那麼來做一些一致性的規定那麼第三個呢是發展自立生活支持服務的責任保險那麼讓這個個人助理在工作上也更有保障"},{"start":2080.03,"end":2103.826,"text":"至於有關委員提案的版本 以下僅就共通性的意見來做簡要的說明首先是有關林月琴委員等18人 吳立華委員等18人 王玉敏委員等17人以及台灣民眾黨團所提案的增訂身心障礙者代表組成比例"},{"start":2105.167,"end":2120.692,"text":"與受理申訴案件部分那麼為了支持身心障礙者能夠積極的參與各項決策過程本部支持提高參與各項身障者委員會的人數比例"},{"start":2121.693,"end":2135.411,"text":"至於對於受損協調機制的部分可以透過歧視事件的行政調查及裁處本部認為是無需再訂定申訴的制度"},{"start":2136.612,"end":2158.969,"text":"其次對於林月琴委員等18人 吳麗華委員等18人 王一鳴委員等17人以及台灣民眾黨黨團所提的增訂歧視範圍合理調整及賠償請求權部分擴大歧視的規定跟增加賠償的請求權在行政院的版本裡頭"},{"start":2161.53,"end":2190.109,"text":"目前也在研議反歧視法的草案為了避免未來這個法規的競合關係我們建議是配合整個該法的相關規定來做一致性的調整而至於合理調整規定入法的部分本部競表支持希望透過社會宣導及教育讓這樣的新的概念能夠逐步的普及"},{"start":2191.15,"end":2213.711,"text":"那麼第三 有關武力華委員等18人 汪玉敏委員等17人 台灣民眾黨黨團所提增訂同儕支持個人助理以社會居住之專章及專條那麼如同前面所述 在本法第50條已經訂定了相關的包含社區居住服務還有這個"},{"start":2216.173,"end":2231.198,"text":"個人支持這個自立生活的服務項目並且由51條第二項的授權法規訂立相關的執行細節了所以我們認為為了保持法規的彈性跟及時能夠調整那麼應"},{"start":2233.039,"end":2261.304,"text":"應以授權法規身心障礙者個人照顧服務辦法來研修就可以無需在本法章明訂那麼第四呢是有關林月琴委員等18人吳麗華委員等18人王一鳴委員等17人提案呢去增訂身心障礙福利機構之這個院長主任或工作人員的消極資格的部分呢那麼並訂定有違反法規的法則來保障"},{"start":2262.544,"end":2288.451,"text":"服務對象的權益確保機構服務品質本部競表支持最後有關林月琴委員等18人吳立華委員等18人王一鳴委員等17人以及台灣民眾黨黨團所提案明訂各類傳播媒體之報導不得使用歧視性稱呼或描述並配合修正罰則的部分本部"},{"start":2289.652,"end":2303.848,"text":"對於各類的媒體都不應有歧視性的報導來落實平等及不歧視精神本部競表支持至於申訂法則的部分考慮到形態的多元化"},{"start":2305.45,"end":2327.351,"text":"建議如果要訂定法則的話要審慎的研議那麼以上是本部對於委員修訂版本的初步意見至於行政院的版本目前也在積極的研修中那麼很快的希望能夠送到大院來並同一起審查那麼此外本部也會持續的"},{"start":2328.852,"end":2349.757,"text":"與障礙團體溝通來提供更友善的服務 以上報告那麼再請大院各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝部長的這樣的一個說明跟報告因為我們今天是第二次的"},{"start":2350.57,"end":2369.875,"text":"應該是第二次審選法的懸打跟報告了所以我們還是希望行政院用最快的速度趕快送到立法院來做審議好 謝謝有關本會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始做懸打做以下宣告第一本會委員懸打時間6加2分鐘列起委員4加1分鐘"},{"start":2370.855,"end":2382.858,"text":"4點半截止 歡迎登記委員如有書面質詢 請於三位前提出 預期不受理暫定10點30分 休息10分鐘那本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員 陳昭志委員來作務宣達謝謝主席 有請石部長來 請部長 謝謝"},{"start":2396.449,"end":2409.435,"text":"副長長我想請教您還有社家署州署長你們兩位認為自己了解身障者嗎 殘障者嗎身心障礙者嗎你們認為你們了解嗎你們是專家嗎"},{"start":2411.307,"end":2433.405,"text":"不敢說是專家但是身為這個生權法的主管機關我們盡我們的能力來瞭解身障者的需求我問這個問題是因為CRPD一直強調的就是在投影片也有Nothing about us without us部長知道這句話嗎知道部長這句話的意思是什麼 您知道嗎"},{"start":2434.732,"end":2461.767,"text":"就是說所有在制定相關的制度的時候呢那麼應該要有身障者的參與讓他們沒有他們的參與呢這些政策更白話的講就是說如果沒有我們的加入請不要幫我們做決定這句話已經存在20年了在至少但是這句話到政府我覺得一直是沒有注意到或是沒有尊重障礙者的意見跟想法經常還是找專家學者"},{"start":2462.267,"end":2484.36,"text":"我們台灣的收視鏡好找專家學者來做決定忽略了障礙者才是最清楚他真正的處境他就是真正的專家障礙者本身那請問部長你們送到行政院的這個身權法草案剛剛你有稍微提到說提高席次但是我要再跟您確認你有沒有規定身障者在委員會的要有過半的席次呢"},{"start":2485.841,"end":2501.532,"text":"我們現在的推動小組的版本目前當然目前來講是差不多是佔四分之一的那未來我們的這個行政辦我們現在希望把它提高就是身心障礙者代表及身障者合計的"},{"start":2502.313,"end":2524.213,"text":"人數能夠過半我想要提醒你一下就是說有些機構跟團體代表並不代表他們的結構成員結構就是殘障者障礙者那你了解這件事嗎我了解所以我們談的所謂的過半甚至有人提到四分之一或更高我們談的是本身本人障礙者本人的加入那如果你沒有把他們放進去"},{"start":2525.094,"end":2552.64,"text":"部長你是會認為他們沒有表達的能力嗎沒有表達參與的這個決策能力嗎我們現在建議的方式是以身障者跟身障者代表因為身障者代表當然就是由身障者所推出來的代言人他們一定是能夠代表他們身障者的意識來行使所以身障者代表跟身障者那麼超過這些委員會中過半我們是支持的"},{"start":2553.58,"end":2569.171,"text":"我們現在的精神就已經到說就是說以障礙者為主就不是說他的代表因為現在的精神就一直要往前推進雖然你剛剛有稍微報告我還是再請教你您有把明文把這個未來的版本把個人助理服務寫進法條嗎"},{"start":2571.213,"end":2596.588,"text":"在我们的这个身权法第50条的第9项第9款就已经纳入了自立生活服务因为个人助理服务只是自立生活服务中的一环因为在我们的这个身心障碍者个人服务办法里面就有第9章专门在谈自立生活服务那么自立生活服务里面已经有个人助理"},{"start":2597.208,"end":2624.576,"text":"因為他不限於個人自立生活服務不等於個人助理他只是這個自立生活服務裡面的一個服務的選項那我再請教你您就所謂自立生活獨立生活跟社區參與部分有入法嗎有入法在社區生活跟自立生活服務都在入法裡面第50條裡面有明訂的服務項目所以我可以確定是個人助理服務入法並沒有入法你只是用他的一個服務範圍或等等去涵蓋嗎"},{"start":2625.736,"end":2652.983,"text":"對 就是在自立生活服務是入法的那自立生活服務呢他在個人服務照顧辦法個人照顧服務辦法裡面有明定的在個人助理的部分也要讓這個障礙者他們會關注他們要了解我們今天談的不是抽象的人權就是一條一條的人命根據自立生活聯盟的統計2017年到現在有84起長照殺人事件"},{"start":2653.743,"end":2671.41,"text":"那根據家庭照顧總會的統計則是從2018年到2024年7年間平均每年將近9件長照殺人這些案件法官在判決書裡有這麼寫家屬不熟悉政府提供的社會福利補助"},{"start":2672.21,"end":2697.129,"text":"政府也未能適時轉介相關的福利與制度結果讓照顧者長期被迫獨自承擔壓力部長您自己也說過這個反映了照顧者支持系統不足政府要做得更多那我想請教您說要做得更多是做什麼 做到哪裡那如果你沒有把社區支持個人助理放在裡面那這樣子把這個權力還給這個障礙者那您覺得像類似這種長照殺人這個杯哥還會再發生激情呢"},{"start":2702.253,"end":2721.719,"text":"我們不斷的在精進這個支持性的服務那麼包含了這個喘息服務包含了社區的多元的資源的整合協助還有家庭照顧者的支持服務所以我們不斷的在擴充這些服務資源同時也透過這個風險的篩檢我們有這個叫做高風險的篩檢指標 來"},{"start":2726.5,"end":2739.153,"text":"及早的發現這個高負荷的家庭照顧者來做調整但是你要照國際審查委員會IRC嘛2022年打的分數是什麼他們在意見欄裡面表達什麼失望"},{"start":2742.403,"end":2762.78,"text":"他認為政府推動障礙者的權益時仍然以慈善跟生物醫學的觀點來做政策意思是政府並沒有看到障礙者的主權性跟權利這個觀念是很重要的仍然把障礙者視為他被照顧被管理甚至是一個依賴慈善救助的角色"},{"start":2763.621,"end":2779.186,"text":"就這個價值觀的轉換是非常的關鍵如果不在生權法裡面補上這些權利難道你就要有心理準備你會再被國際點名就是你會打的分數又是失望部長您了解這件事嗎您要這件事的嚴重性"},{"start":2780.146,"end":2799.574,"text":"我相信經過這幾年的努力那是2022年我希望我下次看到你的分數會進步提醒部長上次的分數是失望部長醫美政策在你表達嚴管之後很快出現了髮夾彎原來衛福部主張要提升醫美安全強化醫師資格"},{"start":2801.035,"end":2821.083,"text":"但是企業商之後可以執行一枚手字範圍擴大成11大科2019年之前沒有PGY的也要補件就可以合法執業繼續執業強制評鑑竟然變成了這個自律認證我想很多醫師都想知道你這個共識是怎麼形成的我想請部長說明我先講幾句話讓部長在"},{"start":2824.284,"end":2844.961,"text":"就是好好對大家來做說明擴大到11顆皆可以執行醫美手術的決策過程那大家特別關心加一顆為什麼呢因為相對於加一顆那一顆住院醫師訓練時有這個樁靜脈導管的一個急救插管中央靜脈導管抽胸水抽腹水的這些訓練"},{"start":2846.142,"end":2856.79,"text":"內科醫師們很困惑啊那為什麼是這個在訓練過程中比較少有這些侵入性的醫療的過程的這訓練的家醫科醫師你可以允許他去抽紙呢請部長回答"},{"start":2858.427,"end":2886.565,"text":"這個跟委員說明在上次的會議只是在共識會議中的一場今天下午還有第二場所以並沒有做成最後的修法的決定還沒有決定精神科的醫師為什麼可以做大家有一些意見就是說今天還在繼續今天下午還有一場所以對於加一科是不是可以認定為大外科如果我個人的意見我是不認同"},{"start":2887.125,"end":2891.546,"text":"那麼應該要檢視他的訓練過程訓練過程裡面到底有多少的時數是有進行手術的訓練應該從這個觀點來看這個不是用協商的而是要看實際的他們的訓練過程那沒有PGY的醫學他的補件證據有沒有標準補件 他補什麼件那審查機制會不會公開"},{"start":2911.112,"end":2923.206,"text":"應該這麼講在108年之後我們才有正式的兩年的PGY制度所以108年以後的沒有完整兩年的PGY訓練的通通要補訓完成才能夠執行這個醫美組織是補訓還補健"},{"start":2925.889,"end":2943.585,"text":"补训回去训练完那个机制我们都会看到对对对那取消强制评鉴后微服部能够保障医美诊所会更安全吗已经好多起人命了当然在上个上个上个礼拜的这些医事室所召开的"},{"start":2944.406,"end":2963.632,"text":"这个讨论里头这个会议讨论里头那么普遍当然在基层诊所对于这个贫贱这两个字呢是有点排斥的当然认为说这个医院贫贱造成了一些阴影不希望扩展到这个基层诊所但是"},{"start":2964.392,"end":2983.48,"text":"即使我們不做用評鑑這個名稱但是也要有一些品質的確保機制那麼不管它稱為認證也好還是什麼樣的名詞但是這個內容本身是要由衛生主管機關來認同要怎麼個做法裡面要看哪一些"},{"start":2984.02,"end":3006.989,"text":"特別是麻醉的安全麻醉的安全一定在這些執行高風險手術的診所裡面需要去檢視的所以不論是用督導考核不論是用認證都要你認為醫美非常重要所以我處理陳情案的時候醫事室也表達說你非常重視這一塊醫美不見得是最重要但是病人的安全是最重要"},{"start":3007.849,"end":3029.44,"text":"我講的就是一個安全那部長最後我想要提醒您就是說我上次有提出您要公佈一些比如說有一些非常昂貴的價格的藥品您的公開資訊您要用民眾看得懂的字而且要說明清楚因為這次AADC事件要發生之後其實我們在看社會大眾對他有不理解有一些質疑其實受傷的"},{"start":3030.501,"end":3051.971,"text":"受傷式的喊病病人跟他們家庭雖然沈亮宇署長還有說相關共理會記錄都是可受公平但我要強調可受公平不代表民眾是理解的有公開也不代表是有效溝通的所以您至少要先講一句喊藥是在特別的專款處理第一個你要讓他們再瞭解然後要用淺白的話"},{"start":3053.351,"end":3072.577,"text":"來說明為什麼你要做這個給付我想請媒體朋友也是要這樣做否則我們這個討論過程真的是傷害到這個很多這個家庭那我最後要講的是說那小兒科跟有一位罕病的醫師他說他們的訓練過程要10年那大部分來自小兒科跟兒科那但是以北龍來說今年那個小兒科只有"},{"start":3073.437,"end":3087.217,"text":"4成報導率內科只有6成報導率而且這些人將來未必會留在醫院所以有病人病人越來越多病例越來越多因為診斷能力等等醫學進步但是照顧這群病人是越來越少所以要請部長您好好想想辦法"},{"start":3088.639,"end":3113.178,"text":"跟委員報告為了這些比較困難診斷罕病都是比較難診斷所以我們在這個優化兒童醫療照護計畫裡面特別去建立這個叫做這個困難診斷的平台來做整合這委託台大兒童醫院要有醫師然後大家來一起協助這樣可以讓這個診斷的速度可以縮短加快謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":3115.782,"end":3145.052,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的花言委員會在這邊提醒一下我們這個深圳華的這個修法還蠻多的版本將近有27個版本那內容還蠻多的甚至有一個章節就多達二三十條那我是希望因為我們今天有有邀請到這個首議員還有聽達人希望大家比較focus在"},{"start":3146.333,"end":3167.869,"text":"這個我們身心障礙者我們的夥伴的相關的權益裡面來做來請教我們相關的單位好 謝謝接下來請林月琴 林委員主席我們請衛福部部長林委員早"},{"start":3173.913,"end":3182.43,"text":"部長早 還有我們在我們的場外的 或者是在外邊觀看這場巡達的"},{"start":3184.229,"end":3212.31,"text":"我們的身障朋友們 大家好那也很感謝今天衛環委員會能夠邀請我們的丁達跟守宇園來服務讓我們所有的身障朋友可以透過這樣子的詢問了解我們大家也針對於衛福部到底做的一些相關的一個事項那部長我相信上週上禮拜跟身障團體的會面讓你知道了他們的迫切性我在這邊也要感謝你"},{"start":3213.711,"end":3233.733,"text":"當時我跟你講說是不是可以跟他們見面那部長也馬上能夠答應來跟他們好好的去做溝通那我希望把這樣子的一個溝通管道建立之後這個管道可能未來希望能夠是保持順暢的不過當初促成這樣子的溝通就沒有它的實質意義在了"},{"start":3234.366,"end":3247.12,"text":"那部長我們的身權法號第50條本來就明定政府應該提供身心障礙者個人所需的自立生活那我想問部長自立生活的定義跟內涵是什麼"},{"start":3248.27,"end":3269.14,"text":"這個在我們的這個身心障礙者個人照顧服務辦法裡面有名詞定義那麼就是讓他能夠在社區裡面那麼依照他的自由的意志選擇那麼得到必要的這個協助那麼可以在不論是在他的生活或社區參與"},{"start":3270.521,"end":3293.318,"text":"或者是這個就業就學方面得到支持部長為何我會要這樣子問因為我發現我們的政策沒有符合自立生活的內涵根據身權公約跟提示刑法或者是我們的身障權法都明白的只是自立生活應該要自我選擇"},{"start":3294.379,"end":3311.844,"text":"自我決定自我負責的精神是最高指導原則目前執行的都有違背相關法令跟精神的亂象導致諸多的困擾問題層出不窮甚至反而造成使用不便或乾脆不用的情形部長你知道這個狀況嗎"},{"start":3314.226,"end":3335.337,"text":"我們大概初步的 首先要很謝謝委員在上個禮拜的活動裡面來替我們牽這個線 建立這個對話的平台讓我們能夠更進一步的 從一個小時的對話能夠更進一步的理解到剛剛委員特別在垂詢的"},{"start":3337.178,"end":3363.915,"text":"這個執行跟需求者之間的落差啦那當然這裡有一大塊是說我們目前有兩個系統一個是長照服務法的系統一個就是這個個人助理的這個服務的系統中間那麼如何讓他merge讓他銜接合用讓他更能夠彈性的運用這部分是我們接下來應該要優先去解決的問題可是"},{"start":3366.037,"end":3384.213,"text":"首先我们就来看这样的概念措置就造成了很大的问题复杂跟僵化的申请程序为什么这样讲对于身心障碍者使用者来讲他们在乎的是制度跟相关服务的可进性跟可负担性"},{"start":3385.153,"end":3395.125,"text":"這也是我們生權公約強調的一個重點他們先天事實上就是有缺陷行動上不方便當他們要申請資源的時候必須要"},{"start":3397.62,"end":3418.797,"text":"從頭去跑流程可是這四項就已經是如果我今天要用個人助理我要用長照居家服務然後我要用職長助理光這三套我可能就要花一些力氣去了解這三套的程序是什麼不但是浪費時間那你這資源建置也是浪費"},{"start":3419.858,"end":3444.352,"text":"所以部長能不能整合成一個窗口簡化申請程序跟委員報告這個有它的背景存在因為在身障者的照顧的部分過去都是在身權法然後從社福的預算在支持那麼長照服務呢這個是過去這近10年才發展出來的事情那麼特別是在2017 106年開始推動長照2.0之後"},{"start":3448.354,"end":3470.039,"text":"才快速的提升服務的照顧範圍跟項目然後它訂定是朝向以支付標準的概念給付標準的概念去訂定所以跟我們過去在身障者服務用計劃型或者是社福的申請制度的方式有一點點"},{"start":3471.36,"end":3483.195,"text":"不一致所以我們現在也在嘗試的看看能不能把這兩個系統我覺得要去考慮整合否則的話坦白講那不是在懲罰使用者嗎"},{"start":3484.332,"end":3502.917,"text":"尤其這也是身上朋友提出來的像個人助理跟自立方案我覺得從很多書看到甚至他們跟我反映的就是有非常多的一個限制像台南嘉義要求服務必須提前數天甚至一個月前就要申請"},{"start":3503.837,"end":3523.005,"text":"可是會有時候臨時要就醫或者是我突然要出門要去處理一些事情的話他直接就被拒絕那高雄有使用者呢核定91小時卻被切成不同用途無法挪用那屏東甚至出現要求障礙者一定要一起做什麼叫一起做一起摺衣服"},{"start":3524.126,"end":3553.125,"text":"一起倒垃圾一起做这个那才算是协助的荒谬的一些标准战我觉得像表面上资源非常齐全实际上在执行的时候非常的僵化让身障者在不同的体系兼卡关所以这是地方政府在执行的时候有非常多荒谬的做法让他们很难自立也很难生活部长你认为这样的制度下身障朋友真的有选择权吗他连时数今年给60小时我明年一样要60小时结果你给我砍到12小时"},{"start":3553.625,"end":3573.132,"text":"那我的需求還是存在為什麼砍這樣子然後沒有更好的說明那雖想申請個人助理卻被僵化的制度卡住的時候怎麼辦跟委員說明就如同我剛剛提到因為長照的服務體系它是由中央訂定的一致性的給付條件跟標準"},{"start":3573.812,"end":3596.054,"text":"那麼個人助理的部分主要來自於地方政府的審查申請那我們來看看怎麼從中央透過這個授權辦法訂定一致性的作業首先先把申請程序先是不是統一否則讓大家去理解各種不同系統的界面要去做申請的時候"},{"start":3596.674,"end":3610.81,"text":"坦白講事實上是非常的困難那對身上朋友來講的話長照當然是目前使用最多的使用人數近24萬可是長照的目標跟自立生活的目標上是不太"},{"start":3611.491,"end":3627.79,"text":"一樣的那相較個人助理整個用才1326人使用因為目前也只有733個個助因為你的報告裡面就有去呈現那身心障礙者因個人助理支援就是因為長期不足所以你看為什麼用的這麼少的人只有1326人因為你的個"},{"start":3630.072,"end":3657.034,"text":"各住的人数也不多而且核定时数我刚才前面讲各地方政府的时候核定时数就会有一些很不一致的地方那实际上就会难以支撑他们的自己生活他们只好去被迫使用我们高龄私能者设计的核心的一个长照服务然后长照的服务是在重照顾不是事实上是支持所以不仅服务内容不符合我们的实际需求"},{"start":3657.634,"end":3666.486,"text":"也侵蝕了身障者的自我決定權形成制度挫制跟我們的權益讓身障朋友的權益受損的一個問題在"},{"start":3667.99,"end":3694.836,"text":"所以想問部長像這樣的情形最後他只能被動接受長照服務而沒辦法真正的主導生活衛福部是不是可以思考這兩病怎麼去結合而不是讓障礙者瘦瘦受困可是我們他希望他自立他也不希望造成家人的一個負擔可是我們的整個制度都沒有辦法讓他真的是回到自立的那個面向去部長這邊可以做到嗎"},{"start":3695.536,"end":3721.885,"text":"我們認同這個委員所指教的方向我們朝這個方向來努力好 謝謝部長 剛剛你的報告裡面也講說我們的歧視從陳俊翰受到中國網紅的那樣的歧視言論我們就一直認為這個歧視要去解決可是你剛剛講說未來也有反歧視法 何時否則的話現在歧視的問題還是在"},{"start":3724.406,"end":3739.982,"text":"就像最近的那個初一鐵板燒因為一名使用電動代步車的健動患者要跟朋友用餐而金杯餐廳要求三個人要付四個人的低銷理由是代步車呢站位引發社會的評論部長這算不算一種歧視"},{"start":3743.55,"end":3759.51,"text":"这个是据我的了解只是这个餐厅好像是要求这个三个人要付四个人付两个位置因为他的轮椅比较占空间所以要两个位置我们觉得这个是不妥的"},{"start":3761.632,"end":3786.394,"text":"這個是違反我們生權法的規定也提醒我們明明政府提供各種人力資源跟公共資源可能是因為制度跟空間設計的限制有時候身障者連進到餐廳都有困難了更快進去了就還被用這樣子的方法來對待所以最後大家這家餐廳願意退費如果不願意退費能攬有要收四個人錢部長我們可以去處理嗎"},{"start":3787.765,"end":3810.985,"text":"我想以现行的法规用消拔法就可以处理了所以我们会依请如果所在地是台北市的话会请台北市政府来介入所以我们希望政府能够确保我们的公共服务跟餐饮场所所提供的资源要能够真正被身障者使用自立要涵盖友善环境交通也好 场域也好"},{"start":3811.445,"end":3828.442,"text":"甚至其他人的對待那我還是希望所謂的反歧視還是要放在生權法裡面不能等反歧視法因為我們不知道等到什麼時候最後大家三大訴求希望你這邊能夠建立單一的窗口來簡化程序還有不要讓"},{"start":3830.044,"end":3851.141,"text":"廢資源把資源用到對位的地方讓自立不是照顧好然後以身上朋友使用當事人為中心然後來我們規劃政策來消除歧視希望部長我相信你應該事實上對社會福利會是關注的部長所以我們希望你要關注到自立生活的一個重要性不要讓他們再走上街頭再"},{"start":3852.588,"end":3873.013,"text":"寒冷的天氣在那裡 葉樹我覺得每一個人看了都會覺得非常心疼是 謝謝部長我完全支持委員這三個訴求的方向我們朝這個方向來努力好 謝謝部長好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長接下來請邱正鈞委員來做詢問"},{"start":3880.897,"end":3902.714,"text":"主席好 我們一樣請部長邱委員部長好一樣是我們身心障礙者權益保障法那我們這部保障法今年6月召委排審的時候你們的院版還在行政院像半年過去的召委在排審你們的還是一樣在行政院嗎"},{"start":3903.958,"end":3923.485,"text":"現在是在行政院做最後的確認因為上個禮拜有一些團體有來表示一些意見所以我們就重新檢視一下再修一個版本應該預計在本月底或者是下個月初就會送到這是最快的啊對會最慢嗎"},{"start":3924.893,"end":3936.044,"text":"會不會再慢應該差不多就是這個時間了因為我看是立法院修完了行政院才準備把自己的版本送過來不知道你的角色是主管機關還是遲到的學生"},{"start":3937.103,"end":3956.304,"text":"當然我們是儲管機關我想說你們這次準備送進立法院的版本那內容跟你們2024年8月的公告修正的草案有沒有一樣不一樣因為當時候預告的時候那麼因為收到很多的意見所以我們才會又做很多的討論團體的討論改了什麼東西"},{"start":3959.621,"end":3987.804,"text":"包含这个在这个身心障碍的相关委员会的这个参与这个参与度我们会让他提高这个代表的比例会让他提高那另外呢把这个通用设计路法各级政府都要导入那另外在这个自立生活支持服务的部分我们也会有所琢磨那另外对于身心障碍服务机构"},{"start":3988.484,"end":4014.274,"text":"的這個受服務者的權益保障啊消息條件等等我們也都有納入還有一些交通無障礙設施的部分也都會好所以都都是我們身上同理的一些訴求嘛都進來了嘛像自力生活個人助理制度長照整合統一時數標準身障者的參與政策路法這些都已經進來了嘛對不對"},{"start":4015.354,"end":4042.683,"text":"對 就是說參與入法的部分就是說需要入法的我們把他進來那執行面的東西像如何去整合執行面的東西我們會從我們的行政作業面來執行好 那部長我再確認一件事情這個胰臟酵素製劑卡麗硝有沒有列入這個藥事法第27條之二所講的必要藥品這個目前是這個基本藥物就是那個必要藥品"},{"start":4043.376,"end":4063.448,"text":"那現在的規定的必要藥品只要預期供應不足至少要提前6個月通報或者是天災不可規則的突發事件要在事發後30天來通報嘛 對不對那你們11月25號就把這個卡麗硝放在缺藥平台照理來講卡麗硝是必要藥品應該有6個月以上的庫存安全期"},{"start":4064.707,"end":4091.605,"text":"可是你們又現在說只剩下一個月不然這怎麼回事因為這個法還沒有修過我們現在目前有提出這個藥事法的修法所以它那個庫存的情形沒有到六個月是這個還沒有但是我們現在已經你們是什麼時候接到通報的確認的時間我要再請這個食藥署去查一下是醫院反映的還是這個平台反映"},{"start":4092.546,"end":4100.135,"text":"我們這個是由這個業者業者直接那為什麼你要等到這個一個月後才公報啊"},{"start":4101.999,"end":4125.846,"text":"應該是說他會進行一些作業程序去確認這個沒有可替代性就是說他通報之後他今天通報說我可能要停止供貨或者是供應量會下降然後就會進入這個專家的討論說有沒有其他的可替代性如果沒有可替代性就會啟動專案製造或專案輸入像這個就是要專案輸入了"},{"start":4126.886,"end":4154.042,"text":"那我因為我看台灣現在缺藥大家已經見怪不怪了像外科手術用的那個CHG的那個劑型都在缺這就不是一般的問題了這張照片是我們苗栗外科手這個醫師的手原本他們進手術前都要消毒用的是隨意M的那個乾式刷手藝比較不傷手但是7年開始全台大缺貨醫生護理人員至少被迫"},{"start":4154.722,"end":4175.317,"text":"回到過去用刺激性更強的這個CHG的刷手藝那甚至優點來手藝來洗手那外科醫師排班比較多的話他可能一天刷十幾次 二十幾次長期使用刺激性的產品手就會變成這樣子破皮龜裂結果我看到你們11月28號缺藥平台連這個也缺啦"},{"start":4178.161,"end":4196.194,"text":"這個刷手液是相當普遍的一個產品應該有很多的你之前不上手的隨意M的那個也缺貨現在這個也缺貨相類似的產品這中間發生什麼問題是不是這個品項有它的什麼特殊性可能都要經過專家會議去討論為什麼這種東西都會缺呢"},{"start":4203.069,"end":4212.893,"text":"不應該是缺的因為他有很多類似的產品刷手藝的產品很多我們勞動部也在嘛我請問一下這個算紙災嗎"},{"start":4220.942,"end":4242.13,"text":"報告委員這個不是我所負責的業務很難回答很抱歉好請回序談那部長我覺得你們對藥品的政策邏輯真的很奇怪因為我發現一個問題最近我們常缺藥就是你常把健保藥價壓到全球最低壓到藥商沒有人沒有利潤沒有誘因最後只能退出台灣市場"},{"start":4243.47,"end":4263.019,"text":"那然後就開始缺藥了那缺藥的時候一開始缺一種兩種現在變成常態接著你們的解方永遠就是只有一個啟動這個專案輸入而我們陳時中政委急著要把這個藥師法大修進一步放寬這個專案輸入的條件你不覺得這個很奇怪嗎"},{"start":4265.1,"end":4283.232,"text":"跟委員說明這個我們在這個必要藥品上都有它的一些作業的機制那麼都會先去評估這個同類品的藥同類項我們列在同項的項下還有多少種品項"},{"start":4284.153,"end":4298.369,"text":"不是 我現在講這個是就是說你們先把藥價砍到沒有人要做然後在後面再花更多的錢去國外買急單最後還是全民買單啊 對不對你們從壓價 缺藥 然後開專案買更貴 再修法"},{"start":4303.342,"end":4323.659,"text":"然後再更多的專案我在想 我在想是現在民進黨政府他是這個光電的這個錢賺不夠現在要改當藥頭了是吧不會啦 因為這些藥啊我們都是經過市場的藥價調查專案輸入越多 黑箱就越多啊黑箱越多利益分配就越大嘛一問到專案價格你們就說是機密嘛"},{"start":4330.009,"end":4341.383,"text":"對不對 那如果機密價格進口商少數 流程快速 採購不透明你們靠專案輸入就能繞過健保的購買 繞過審查的流程也繞過監督的機制啦"},{"start":4342.214,"end":4368.292,"text":"跟委員說明普通在專案輸入進口的時候它都是跟現行的幾戶的要價是相同的為優先對 因為開了要價之後哪一家拿到好像是你們說了算嘛沒有 它是公開徵求它會上網公開徵求然後我們要價的部分呢原則上說會跟現行的要價是相同的為原則那為什麼每次問到多少錢你們都說是機密呢"},{"start":4369.632,"end":4395.228,"text":"那個是實際上這個供貨的價格跟我們給付價格我們會公告的是給付價格就是跟大家都是一樣但是醫院的採購價那個是醫院的採購我這樣講啦部長這個遊戲不要再玩了就是說專案輸入永遠比這個之前的都貴啦也比較黑箱我希望以後我們這個部分能夠更透明更公開絕對不要變成常態"},{"start":4396.228,"end":4415.485,"text":"我們一定是採取公開透明的原則好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝邱委員委員會還是再度提醒一下因為今天聲全娃真的各個委員提出來的草案的版本真的很多可能我剛剛跟他清算一下"},{"start":4416.706,"end":4437.406,"text":"主條文應該就有三十多條然後知己知己 今天總加起來快四五十條那我還是希望今天外面 裡面都有很多人在關注這個生存法的修法的一個內容跟方向所以我提醒各位 盡量focus在這個內容裡面謝謝大家好 再來請王一鳴委員來做詢談"},{"start":4444.346,"end":4446.631,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長來 部長歐元早"},{"start":4452.202,"end":4474.737,"text":"部長早我想今天是這個生權法的修法在進入這個主題之前我前面先問你一個也是社會現在很關注的就是兒家屬喔你的修法進度然後你裡面你到底你的編制喔你有沒有把因為你之前承諾說從胚胎開始照顧嘛現在大家最擔心的就是像孕產婦的這個照護還有幼兒專責醫師還有死因回溯機制等這個都跟兒童的健康息息相關你會不會把它"},{"start":4482.122,"end":4482.785,"text":"移到這個兒家屬裡面"},{"start":4484.363,"end":4498.912,"text":"跟委員說明我們現在已經把這個組織法的修正那個草案已經送到院裡面那麼應該很快的會在下個禮拜嗎決定應該會就下禮拜可以送到可以送到立法院那我剛剛講的你現在的組織規模剛剛講的跟孕產婦的照護幼兒專者醫生死因回溯機制等等跟健康有關的你有沒有要放進來"},{"start":4514.861,"end":4542.78,"text":"跟委员报告我们现在初步提的是在最上位的组织法然后接下来他的业务上会持续的讨论如何做调整或者是有些要新增那么刚刚提到像死因回作这是属于在儿童的健康政策规划当中非常重要的基本功所以一定会在这里面去做统计分析这个是一定会含纳在这个儿家属"},{"start":4543.3,"end":4572.341,"text":"那么孕产户我们也一直还要跟专业团体也要讨论因为你说从胚胎开始是是是好不好我们会来看看怎么样的分工会是最好我希望这一个有关于健康的部分也应该要纳入这样才有划时代的意义那另外一个我希望明年4月4号儿童节可以顺利揭牌部长没有信心你是很有效率的部长没有信心儿童节礼物好不好一起努力"},{"start":4573.543,"end":4590.129,"text":"掐指算來的話不到5個月的時間就要很努力啊所以下個禮拜請行政院趕快通過送進來立法院那反正我們開會開到1月底嘛立法院要審查通過我們才有辦法去開始執行我們就加速審查好不好我們共同努力接下來今天的重點"},{"start":4591.189,"end":4617.622,"text":"我想這個我們上次12月3號看到很多的身障團體還夜宿在行政院真的非常的不忍心我覺得他們真的是非常的辛苦而他們的辛苦也換來了今天我們委員會排案要審這個身障法相關的修法那第一個我要問的是那行政院一樣行政院目前衛福部完全沒有版本你們的版本什麼時候送進來這個"},{"start":4621.109,"end":4626.687,"text":"我們是打算在這個月底或者是下個月初就會送到大園"},{"start":4627.591,"end":4653.044,"text":"一定要月底喔一定要月底因為其實現在很多的身障團體同時線上收看他們現在最焦慮的是今天我們啟動了我們尋答然後我們今天會宣讀條文待會可能要請教召委那我們要進主條嗎他們其實已經等不及了希望快所以部長我只能說你這邊沒有什麼時間就是在拖延麻煩你跟行政院我們不會拖延"},{"start":4653.624,"end":4682.566,"text":"我们是因为上个礼拜跟团体对话之后那我们回去再检视所以又再修了一下所以应该我们跟这个院里面我希望你加快就是月底赶快送进来然后第一个我要问你们的问题就是个人助理的部分这是这一次身障团体他们反应最多的现行的状况他们平均每一天使用到的时数就是不到一个小时真的是太少了而且各县市的情况不一"},{"start":4683.206,"end":4703.812,"text":"然後他們要申請通常他都是被行政這邊做了一些刁難所以我們給他的個人助理完全不是從生活自立的角度也不是從身心障礙者使用的角度來看待這件事情包括我看到你們的預算你們整體包括在裡面的自立生活預算"},{"start":4704.992,"end":4719.088,"text":"去年還有8.45億今年今年還有8.45億明年你的編列只剩下7.98億就是不增反減所以也是呈現一個下降的情況是不是我這數據有沒有錯"},{"start":4719.889,"end":4736.55,"text":"好像我们再确认一下那个同仁是说其实如果有这样的一个情况不是减少是增加对如果是不增反减那这个是让人家觉得非常失望因为本席在这一次的修法里面47条之一呢还特别"},{"start":4737.031,"end":4753.942,"text":"希望寬裂預算可以入法就是說希望可以增加預算但是我們現在從使用者的這個平均的使用的時數跟現在政府所編列出來的預算我們都覺得是不足的所以在這個部分"},{"start":4754.602,"end":4778.316,"text":"看到你們今天的報告裡面呢這個好像對於修法不是很同意這個部長你們自己提出來的這個報告裡面你說你們都是行政思維你們提到的不可行的你們通通提到是什麼就說哎呀這個跟其他的長照啊就業部門社政部門個人助理等多所重疊"},{"start":4779.517,"end":4797.225,"text":"然後又說相關法令規定產生禁核所以你們是不是就是不支持這個個人助理的部分就是明文入法不會 因為現在其實已經入法你們是辦法啦 對就是在母法裡面有自立生活服務這一項"},{"start":4797.985,"end":4817.816,"text":"那這個自立生活服務呢再透過第51條的授權法規會訂定這個照顧服務辦法那這個辦法裡面的第9章就專門在談自立生活服務自立生活服務有很多選項不是只有個人助理但是你現行的辦法這個部長我要提醒你你現行的辦法其實有一些需要去調整"},{"start":4818.496,"end":4836.073,"text":"包括剛剛講的各縣市你根本就不依那你現在時數這麼低然後你的整個審查的思維還是行政管理的思維不是從使用者的角度身心障礙者的角度來看待所以你的限制坦白講是多的那如果加上你的預算沒有去寬裂的話"},{"start":4836.934,"end":4849.825,"text":"坦白說你也沒有資源你沒有錢 沒有預算你就沒有辦法去增加個人的時數個人助理的時數這個是緩緩連動的所以你要回答我嗎你的預算到底有沒有減少找出來了嗎應該是沒有減少"},{"start":4852.948,"end":4871.029,"text":"這個計算的方式可能有所不同我們再跟委員去check一下計算方式可能不一樣不過呢剛剛委員提到的這些申請的程序的簡化啦還有資源怎麼讓他合用啦那麼服務的項目怎麼去做整合運用等等"},{"start":4871.61,"end":4895.602,"text":"那這個我想在我們的授權辦法裡面我們可以來處理讓他各縣市的標準盡量趨近一次我覺得這一次身障團體他們要求要修法個人助理其實是重中之重他們講了一句話就是讓我聽了非常有感覺他說我們的障礙是24小時跟著他的但是我們現在可以申請到的個人助理的時數卻是只能非常短暫的"},{"start":4896.562,"end":4919.154,"text":"所以他每一天都要生活但是他這一些障礙就缺乏有人來幫他排除我覺得這句話你們應該要放在心上就是導過來你們通常都是行政管理的思維導過來以他為主體性去思考你就會發現我們現在的確還有很多不足我當然知道你們的量能不可能一下子跟上但是你總是要進步好不好這個是重中之重第二個就是"},{"start":4920.174,"end":4941.405,"text":"我們對於身心障礙者我們當然希望他可以走出社區然後融入職場所以對於想要工作的這些障礙者我們當然要在職場上面是更友善的但是我要讓你看一個案例這個是連我們的國營事業台鐵他禁用了身心障礙人士結果這位身心障礙者他想要調單位"},{"start":4942.646,"end":4955.796,"text":"結果台鐵做了什麼呢直接把他支錢就不用他了過了試用期直接就把他支錢了然後他透過行政這個民事的訴訟最後判決是這個身心障礙者贏了台鐵要罰他錢因為台鐵"},{"start":4958.038,"end":4983.691,"text":"他沒有按照我們現行的這些相關的給他一個合理的調整就身心障礙者他在工作場所他應該可以這個僱主應該幫他做一些合理的調整那台鐵通通都沒有他沒有針對溝通障礙或獨立作業困難進行職務再設計或合理調整那這樣的一個情況就會造成我們身心障礙者好不容易找到一個工作了"},{"start":4984.511,"end":5004.229,"text":"但是連我們的國營事業都這麼不用心然後是用之前的方式三個月叫他走路完全不肯去做一些相關的配合所以這一次的修法裡面呢我們就希望可以把這一個合理的這個調整入法但是我還是要講今天我看了大報告非常遺憾"},{"start":5005.789,"end":5028.042,"text":"這個合理調整入法衛福部也沒有同意然後讓人家更失望的是我們的司法院司法院你們的報告裡面你們寫出來的報告怎麼連司法院也這樣子呢司法院說這個合理調整呢這個應該由法院依具體個案情形審酌身心障礙者提出的需求是否逾越"},{"start":5029.883,"end":5049.523,"text":"為適當決定意思就是說這個概念是模糊的沒有辦法入法也不支持是這樣子嗎司法院要不要講一下你們有去體諒到身心障礙者嗎如果一個身心障礙者他們遇到一個情況他都要透過司法訴訟才能徵得他的權益這樣對他們合理嗎"},{"start":5050.933,"end":5075.775,"text":"跟委員報告我們在我們因為那個訴訟有很多個案上的狀況都不一定所以我們才會這樣子做說明但是其實我們司法院已經有公告這個身心障礙者禁用司法的指引那我們已經有發給所有的法院提醒他們說在程序調整這一塊法院必須要對身心障礙者禁用司法的權利的部分去做到什麼樣的事情"},{"start":5077.757,"end":5093.236,"text":"這個司法院只是指引 勞動部是弄了一個行政指導就是沒有一個相關主管機關希望他可以入法 明文就在身障法裡面明文規定那這個部分我是沒有辦法同意的 因為"},{"start":5094.378,"end":5118.418,"text":"讓更多的身心障礙者他可以在職場工作讓他達到自立生活我覺得這個是我們應該去追求的目標這應該是衛福部要去做而這個跨部會我覺得勞動部也應該要盡力來做現在的指導或指引我覺得都是不夠的這一次這波的修法我們就希望把它明文入法大家一起來保障我們身心障礙者合理的工作權"},{"start":5119.039,"end":5145.876,"text":"好 這個跟委員說明我們支持把合理調整這個入法所以我們在行政院的版本裡面會呈現好 所以衛福部同意嘛那希望相關其他單位就不要再反對了我們一起修法讓身心障礙者就是可以達到自立生活的目標 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝王委員 謝謝部長 閣下請回我沒有邀請上來就不用急著上來不然上來又說那個不是他管的那就很怒氣"},{"start":5147.56,"end":5155.064,"text":"沒關係 委員會這邊宣告我們到王正旭委員審討結束就休息10分鐘謝謝來 請蘇清璇召委謝謝主席 主席英明我也有感覺好 請司部長還有我們勞動力發展署副署長司委員長"},{"start":5175.936,"end":5195.924,"text":"部長我今天問你三個問題我講話很清楚第一個我們一百二十幾萬個身心障礙者而且人數好像有在增加那他們的權益真的是非常重要那他們也蠻辛苦的所以我等一下會講說我自己"},{"start":5197.723,"end":5227.003,"text":"做倫理在馬路上示給大家看第一個就是我們勞動部7月1號公布一個身心障礙者職場合理調整行政指導不知道在寫什麼7月1號到現在我們知道身心障礙者在職場上他的空間 尊嚴軟硬體要調整讓他比較鬆軟讓他不受歧視的感覺這個都非常重要"},{"start":5228.163,"end":5246.016,"text":"那我剛剛聽王毅民講我們國營事業台鐵啦 台電都這樣啦看你不可以就連試用器都要把它充掉我覺得我們國營事業自己本身都不說話自己本身都不去配合那我要補充的就是"},{"start":5248.057,"end":5262.77,"text":"你現在這裡的業者尤其是傳統業者這些中小企業的僱主他非常配合然後來禁用這些身心障礙者我覺得很偉大結果他們在街上街上吃的我們普通人家有在"},{"start":5267.478,"end":5294.97,"text":"支持 還是幫我們輔導 還是幫我們贊助一些費用還是支援一些費用不只是要求行政指導 行政指導是要做什麼那不是你的事情還是勞動力發展時的事情我想這個是在身權法下我們希望在身葬者的權益的保障能夠更落實才有這個"},{"start":5297.932,"end":5323.926,"text":"適材適用啦所以這個合理調整的概念大概是這樣考慮到身上者他的這個條件那麼安排合適的工作所以這個合理調整大概有些這樣的精神在那只是說透過這個勞動部的這個行政指導可以讓所有的業者僱主更清楚那麼所謂的合理調整的概念是什麼那怎麼樣來落實"},{"start":5325.467,"end":5353.96,"text":"你衛福部或是勞動力發展署或是社家署你自己有什麼配套來鼓勵這裡的業者你叫他改黨改賽你不給他贊助什麼你講你講 來報告委員就是在協助中小企業對這些障礙者做合理調整我們有一個植物再設計的補助那每一個勞工一年可以補助十萬塊那這裡面就會有包含譬如說他的"},{"start":5354.5,"end":5382.036,"text":"就業輔具等等或者雇主為勞工做的一些環境的改善那另外也有像是手語翻譯聽打聽力協助職場人力協助等等都有這樣子協助他做你說一個人一個人頭十萬塊那十萬塊是給雇主去配合的措施勞工也可以自行申請那我們也有一個申請的網站所以這個錢是兩個人都可以申請"},{"start":5382.856,"end":5408.798,"text":"雇主申請幫勞工申請算人頭的那勞工可以申請他自己需要的那這個錢從哪裡來 是救安基金是不是每個人都救安基金 不過救安基金有什麼他可以促進就業那這些身障者他的才30%達到基本工資這是真的嗎 其他都under基本工資有這回事嗎"},{"start":5410.816,"end":5431.769,"text":"他們的收入都變 都很少31.2%報告委員如果依照我們最新的勞動狀況生長的勞動狀況調查目前他的平均薪資是最新的113年5月的統計是3732萬多"},{"start":5437.657,"end":5461.168,"text":"那怎麼會有統計說都在基本工資下面有達到基本工資的才31%這是你們的數據嗎我剛剛報告的是113年去年我們做的全國生長者的勞動狀況調查的平均薪資好 那我問第二個問題就是PA就是Personal Assistance"},{"start":5462.987,"end":5474.903,"text":"部長 這PA是 台灣有很多人 第二這PA是在家 幫他做assistant或是說他去職場 這個PA會不會退去"},{"start":5476.062,"end":5495.908,"text":"哇 這樣還得了這個120萬個生長業者如果有60萬人去上班那我們到底是多少批的剛才有人說一天賺了一天錢這個是取高合寡還是利益良善但是做不到 不對"},{"start":5497.669,"end":5514.48,"text":"當然這個做個人助理的部分他不只是只有生活還有包含他的那些這個職場也有所以目前投入的人力不多還沒有超過1000人"},{"start":5516.501,"end":5534.434,"text":"所以這個人數上確實是這是聯合國什麼CRPD要求的嘛這是衛福部在qualify這個PA還是勞動部在qualify個人助理是我們在認證的"},{"start":5536.42,"end":5553.289,"text":"所以是你們招聘 然後上課 然後認證對 認證啦 主要是上課 開課然後訓練 然後取得資格這樣所以這樣啦 基本條件是要什麼那他的財富要怎麼 要送點錢還是要有薪水"},{"start":5554.836,"end":5576.221,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上在個人助理的部分目前其實在我們人員辦法裡頭有規定他的一個資格是高中以上畢業然後受訓25小時就可以那這25小時的內容包括了自立生活的精神還有如何協助支持等等所以這些是縣市政府在管理然後錢啊 錢怎麼算"},{"start":5579.353,"end":5590.27,"text":"個人助理的費用是我們中央補助一部分多數是在地方政府編列的預算所以這裡請的 管理不是幾十個"},{"start":5593.359,"end":5604.103,"text":"分佈上我們再統計一下各縣市的資料所以我們這個我要跟主席報告我們這樣講到整大堆我看根本就人數沒夠 分量也沒夠你說一個高中畢業最少五點鐘可以做"},{"start":5612.706,"end":5619.089,"text":"這個Personal System做PA他的年齡是有夠嗎我們造服務員是這樣訓練到要外遊去課到要試醫那做造服務員這到底年齡有夠嗎台服有夠嗎算點錢還是算這都要好好好好來研究一下"},{"start":5632.655,"end":5647.832,"text":"跟各位說這個也就是目前碰到的困境我們現在有長照的服務居家服務長照的居家服務又有個人助理這一塊因為這兩邊提供服務的人的條件"},{"start":5648.653,"end":5662.891,"text":"不相当所以就才会有这个身上者提出说为什么他已经有个人助理那他个人助理不能帮他做这个事情还要再另外透过居家服务比如说他有这个我们居家服务有沐浴"},{"start":5664.473,"end":5686.531,"text":"這個有長照人員才能做那個人助理他本身如果不具有長照人員資格他就不能做這行所以他就會認為說服務的切割但是這個如果通通要包進來那確實是這個訓練的部分就要你一個身心障礙者他也要請長照的人還要請個人助理這樣可以嗎一個人可以兩選"},{"start":5691.315,"end":5712.05,"text":"我們目前是沒有排斥現在這個沒有互斥性只是說這個我上個禮拜跟這些身障團體溝通他們是認為說我還要再去找別人說我已經有一個個人助理了但是當我遇到某些服務的時候我還要再去找長照人員進來"},{"start":5714.031,"end":5724.197,"text":"我覺得這個真的知識體大 要整合啦要討論啦 要整合啦另外 想問要不要大家報告我們身心障礙者 你說我20秒就對了 主席我都讓你說10多分鐘"},{"start":5728.479,"end":5750.365,"text":"來 我們的身心障礙者 我們感同身受 都是我們的寶貝所以他們的所有權益 我們一定要不管是立法會委員 不管是各縣市的首長像我們主席要選管定的人 都要跟他們拼命所以我自己在當局 我自己借輪椅借輪椅到那個發酵池 魚市場那裡 我給他們殺風殺"},{"start":5756.047,"end":5778.12,"text":"我知道金本德連人情步道的倫理要拆掉就拆不起來所以各縣市的都很差勁 城市都不足 六都可能還好所以大家不管你立委 不管你做什麼我覺得這個案很重要 大家要及時廣義所以剛剛講的 點出來的問題都要融合"},{"start":5784.656,"end":5802.518,"text":"大家很會抱怨 我今天可以跟你說你這裡大 這裡大我就不知道今天這件事是你的還是勞動部的我們是主管機關但是還是會回到像交通的還是會回到地方政府或者是交通主管機關我們一起來努力這樣好 謝謝"},{"start":5804.179,"end":5819.905,"text":"所以蘇朝偉英明提出來都是重點沒有沒有部長剛剛答覆是不排斥啦不過他兩個申請起來就會讓身心障礙者很多次啦你聽我意思啦好謝謝好來請民進組委員好謝謝主席是不是請我們部長來部長林委員早"},{"start":5833.666,"end":5863.226,"text":"部長 我想今天跟你討論一個之前談過的議題就是說你知道這個未來的慢性病的防治重點大概會有哪些嗎 慢性病NCD 就是那個非傳染性疾病我們主要就是以三高跟CKD那就是所謂代謝症候群那代謝症候群成長的趨勢在台灣嚴不嚴重 你覺得呢"},{"start":5865.007,"end":5883.103,"text":"很嚴重你知道這個肥胖問題不只是台灣成為全球關注的焦點根據今年3月在發表在刺客專的期刊一項分析全球200多個國家的數據的研究指出到2050年在不久的將來全球會超過一半的成年人"},{"start":5889.389,"end":5911.651,"text":"以及三分之一的兒童及青少年將會超重或者是肥胖但我們都知道肥胖不只是個人健康的問題它還會加重醫療體系的負擔甚至提升慢性病的風險我現在特別再跟你指出來就是說國健署去年"},{"start":5912.672,"end":5937.941,"text":"國健署的去年發布了2023年的工作人口健康促進的現況調查它的初步結果調查中發現僅有不到一半的工作者體重正常受調查的全體工作者當中高達47.4%的體重達到過重或者是肥胖"},{"start":5938.941,"end":5955.487,"text":"主要當然就是缺少運動或者是膳食纖維 蔬果的攝取不足目前的初步分析發現只有47.9%的工作者體重落在正常的範圍27.2%已經是過重20.2%已經是肥胖的程度只有僅僅非常少的是4.7%是過輕的族群"},{"start":5966.371,"end":5987.572,"text":"那這種初步的分析裡面我們看到體重正常的工作者當中還有性別上的差異女性正常的正常的裡面女性居多但是50歲以上的女性族群仍然有超過30%具有過重或者是肥胖的問題"},{"start":5988.773,"end":6013.407,"text":"這可能的因素很多 當然包括更年期等等那另外根據數據調查顯示男性過重跟肥胖的族群高達61.6%而且年齡分布在40歲以上的男性族群體重問題都以過重為主但是50到59歲則男性肥胖的比例最高"},{"start":6014.627,"end":6034.013,"text":"肥胖比例最高的年齡段那我要講這個就是說我們都知道肥胖這個問題代謝症候群的問題這個是跟肥胖跟很多疾病息息相關那你知道部長現在茶餘飯後網路上大家最喜歡討論的關於跟肥胖有關的議題是什麼"},{"start":6037.736,"end":6049.123,"text":"最流行的又不是那一支不是喔人家是雙效的雙效的GLP-1然後另外一個酵素是什麼有兩種它是兩種的兩種分的兩種嗎對"},{"start":6053.41,"end":6073.323,"text":"大家都知道 討論度最高的處理代謝症候群的方法大家都是直接使用藥物而且號稱非常健效 非常有效那其實你看我 我其實是過重的我是過重的 真的我沒騙你我是過重的雖然大家都看不出來我很重"},{"start":6081.642,"end":6084.041,"text":"所以我也很动心您分量很重"},{"start":6087.705,"end":6114.872,"text":"但是大家都使用瘦瘦增經驗的真的很多我旁邊一大堆人那我們也去看自費的門診的人也很多其實我也建議我的一個子女她也真的她不是過重她已經是超級胖了我也會建議她要去看但是很多的診所甚至醫生都在招攬生意然後歡迎有興趣的需要的請到跟診所洽詢"},{"start":6116.312,"end":6137.971,"text":"真的是行李有夠好 腰太好 有夠好就好你知道這個售售真一年一年營業額在台灣有多少嗎成長率有多高嗎你們有沒有數據 來健保署 那不是健保 那是自費那是自費那個食藥署的那個銷售量去看"},{"start":6138.351,"end":6162.227,"text":"喔 對 好到時候你給我一個數據真的 剛開始是丹麥的現在丹麥行李都倒了美國里來打倒了但我是要在這裡要講這件事情是因為啊你知道川普宣布跟里來和諾德兩家製藥的要巨頭達成協議他們希望擴大美國民眾對減肥藥物的可及性一個政府他們希望擴大"},{"start":6168.951,"end":6196.57,"text":"減肥藥物的可及性這是一個非常嚴肅的問題真的非常嚴肅那他擴大這個可及性要求藥廠降價降價以後引起更多的人討論甚至連台灣都開始有人呼籲了呼籲政府要將這類的瘦瘦真藥品納入健保給付我剛剛講的我一個親戚122公斤女性年輕他依照健保他可不可以使用"},{"start":6197.898,"end":6220.483,"text":"他已经有三高问题了可以健保补助吗不可以不可以啊因为他还没达到糖尿病他血糖过高但是还没达到糖尿病标准他有血压过高有短固醇过高可是没有健保补助啊如果是病态肥胖的话会纳入到我们对嘛那我说一个122公斤对一个24岁的女性是不是过度肥胖"},{"start":6221.764,"end":6247.198,"text":"是啊 肯定是啊 可是沒有給付但我不是要討論這個給付我是要跟你講說這個問題非常嚴重當減重的藥物被大規模的可進性可急性的時候社會對體重問題的理解還有分配資源整個健保資源 藥物資源分配的優先次序大家都想介入 都想改變"},{"start":6248.599,"end":6262.306,"text":"但是我們可不可以把肥胖當成是可以用藥物解決的疾病當川普這麼做的時候帶頭示範的時候他會衝擊到全世界各個國家的政府的壓力"},{"start":6263.587,"end":6281.202,"text":"所以這牽扯到預防肥胖當然跟預防跟營養政策跟生活型態的醫學還有跟醫療資源的分配很攸關 高度相關但是如果你缺乏公平而且精準的臨床的指引"},{"start":6282.323,"end":6310.298,"text":"資源有可能錯置啊它錯置在非高風險的族群裡面反而削弱了公共衛生政策的有效性啊所以我們在講說這是很嚴肅的課題但不僅是美國或全球正在面臨的課題也是台灣必須及早正式的醫療和社會政策的挑戰但我今天還在跟你講說但是事實上肥胖跟疾病就息息相關嘛"},{"start":6311.118,"end":6328.628,"text":"肥胖就跟疾病息息相關有哪些疾病太多了啦太多了這個跟血糖血壓血脂都相關直接相關的疾病你說血糖血壓血脂慢性的直接有疾病血管疾病什麼都有相關脂肪肝"},{"start":6330.729,"end":6345.123,"text":"大家都知道這個體重過重或肥胖者罹患脂肪肝和肝癌的風險很高但是肝癌就跟我們的癌症防治有關了肝癌始終高居第二名高居不下"},{"start":6346.064,"end":6357.918,"text":"癌症死因的第二名但脂肪性的肝炎是肝癌的致病因子之一而且只有肝臟的脂肪超過5%就是脂肪肝了所以在這種狀況裡面國際癌症"},{"start":6361.081,"end":6383.736,"text":"研究機構IARC他們報告也指出肥胖就是導致癌症的危險因子而且體重過重者相較於健康者高出1.5或到1.8倍罹患肝癌的機率所以你說這是要不要去處理 要啊要怎麼處理肥胖要怎麼處理"},{"start":6385.27,"end":6395.872,"text":"肥胖的這個因素很多調整的他是整個生活習慣的改變不是只是靠藥物人家靠藥物非常有效比你調整他更迅速更有效"},{"start":6397.182,"end":6425.102,"text":"你要不要納入從學理上來看那當然對於這個病態性肥胖的它可是一個輔助的藥物啦而且迅速有效喔那如果肥胖跟癌症相關你從源頭裡面來防治來預防的話人家會覺得說這也是有道理的喔make sense這個還是要經過醫療科技現在就是資源分配的問題而已嘛資源分配的問題是不是"},{"start":6426.602,"end":6449.527,"text":"對 一定是跟資源有關係大家都知道以肝癌為例台灣的肝癌大多數都是來自於代言者BC型的代言者但是也有非代言者的去確診的那台灣的BC型肝炎防治有良好的成效但是脂肪肝的發生率卻患者越來越年輕化而脂肪肝的10年變化趨勢"},{"start":6452.808,"end":6471.081,"text":"2015年發生率是44.5%到2024年變成52.3%結果脂肪肝的這個每兩人就有一個人脂肪肝40到49歲脂肪肝超過7成比例最高天啊在座40到49歲有脂肪肝的舉手"},{"start":6472.745,"end":6501.528,"text":"其實我當時就是 我也是所以在這種狀況裡面20到29歲有幾%有脂肪肝你知道嗎20到29 正年輕我告訴你有42 將近42所以證實台灣脂肪肝真的是年輕化的趨勢在這種狀況裡面我們講我們剛剛講工作人口的健康促進現況調查這麼嚴重如何將職場的健康不平等如何改善"},{"start":6502.869,"end":6512.86,"text":"當然不能是靠人手一針 瘦瘦針吧人手一支瘦瘦針不是辦法吧那你們健康職場健康促進的策略有哪些措施"},{"start":6517.138,"end":6540.645,"text":"職場健康的那個推動是我們國健署的主要業務之一叫他準備有什麼策略我先告訴你因為從勞保局的投保單位來看大型職場有0.4%中型職場只有1%大多數的職場都是小型職場98.6%小型職場常因為人力不足而且沒有資源可以推動健康促進活動"},{"start":6541.465,"end":6554.012,"text":"所以你們的健康促進的政策你們要變成職場健康促進的自主平和制度老實說你們花多少錢你們鼓勵企業自主檢視 積極規劃落實健康促進變成口號"},{"start":6558.394,"end":6579.908,"text":"口惠時不至你們去做了大型的職場成功案例做宣傳台灣美光 台化 愛潔旭相對這些比例最高的小型職場你們後續的效益評估資質未提你們到底有沒有辦法做114年到現在做了幾家的有幾家企業申請"},{"start":6581.57,"end":6604.583,"text":"不知道目前我們的累計的加數大概有1.8萬家啦1.8萬家 喔這搞到 小心職場怎麼做的我們這樣職場健康促進自主平和的制度方向政策可以繼續推但你沒有量化追蹤你沒有平和這個透明化和跨部會的協力可能就淪語形式啊"},{"start":6604.963,"end":6624.929,"text":"所以我們希望你對於職場的健康促進尤其在這個代謝症候群上你應該提出三年的成效指標包括不要講次數企業的參與率健康指標改善幅度還有地區分布分析我們講健康不平等嘛所以我們就希望職場的這上面的問題啊"},{"start":6628.31,"end":6653.075,"text":"要正視它啦還有這個未來你要好好想一下人手一增啊 收收增真的是適當的嗎可是是不是一個好方法美國都這麼做了 其他國家要怎麼辦好 謝謝委員的提醒我們朝這個方向來努力朝什麼方向健康職場啦 健康職場你要講得好 你這樣 啊不要補這句怪怪的 來好"},{"start":6658.07,"end":6659.477,"text":"接下來請王振興委員來做詢問"},{"start":6668.024,"end":6693.39,"text":"好謝謝主席謝謝主席排今天的這個相關的需要來請各個部門來回應的很重要的事情主席各位同仁 維護部作為身心障礙者權益保障法的主管機關負責身心障礙者人格維護經濟安全照顧支持與獨立生活機會等各項權益的規劃"},{"start":6695.47,"end":6711.411,"text":"推動重要的是監督這些角色都非常非常的重要可是本席認為在討論這個自主生活之前這些障礙者自主生活之前我們應該要回到根本來一一檢視現行的公共環境"},{"start":6712.212,"end":6731.329,"text":"到底我們要友善還是沒有我們今天早上已經討論了很多是不是能夠讓身心障礙者走得出去用得放心還要活得自主如果這些外在環境不夠支持的話那自立生活其實就是一個口號今天很多委員是不希望它只是一個口號"},{"start":6732.25,"end":6745.483,"text":"那這樣的話就是難以落實所以有幾個面向要來跟石部長請教請部長來具體說明政府目前的做法跟未來改善的方向請石部長"},{"start":6750.189,"end":6770.189,"text":"歐元好 副長好 當然我們也知道如果要讓生活自主第一步就要走出去那走了出去我們也了解這個時間障礙者的交通環境屬於交通部的業務範疇可是相關的這個督導政策制定還是要有麻煩衛福部這邊來做相關的鞭策還有監督"},{"start":6770.729,"end":6792.448,"text":"那目前智利的這個就業的服務的部分不只是要透過法律的制度來保障更重要的是要可被實際的來使用這樣好的環境支持至少要讓身心障礙者能夠到的了職場或者是他想去的地方也要能夠平安順利的回到家這樣法律的保障不會只是停留在紙上"},{"start":6793.149,"end":6819.324,"text":"那這部分剛剛有很多委員也引用了12月5號這個月12月5號我們的伸葬者有到台北車站去進行一些訴求那這個訴求大家可以看到真的是有讓我們這些伸葬者在做這個無障礙路線體驗行動的過程裡面還發現真的是無路可走"},{"start":6820.323,"end":6837.696,"text":"其實這個是2025年的12月5號大家看到的畫面左上角是在2018年似乎問題過去7年好像也都沒有辦法實際上做到好的改善的過程"},{"start":6838.977,"end":6867.346,"text":"那請問部長就是 衛護部有沒有掌握這種狀況雖然這是屬於交通部的這個一部分的這些職長那衛護部官員有沒有曾經去實際體驗過那有沒有預計什麼時候要請交通部能夠一起或者是主管或者地方主管或者是中央主管機關一起來面對這個實際需求來用心的改善這部分不知道"},{"start":6868.846,"end":6886.441,"text":"目前剛剛很多委員期待的實際上到底狀況怎麼去改善部長這邊有沒有好 跟委員說明有關於台鐵這個部分我們已經去函交通部那麼希望去請台鐵來做"},{"start":6889.604,"end":6903.899,"text":"這個檢視然後進行一些改善同時呢會將這個辦理的情形提到我們這個身心障礙權利的委員會來做報告跟討論所以這個是第一個我們是進行了那第二個"},{"start":6904.099,"end":6927.681,"text":"就是說在這個修法的部分在這一次我們的行政院版本裡面也會強化呢在這個54條的修法裡面讓這個各級機關除了原本定的這個第54條是要求中央目的事業主管機關來訂定相關無障礙的法規之外那麼也讓這個各"},{"start":6930.023,"end":6948.291,"text":"地方政府直轄市縣市政府的也應該訂定這個分期的計畫去改善包含道路啦人行道啦市區道路以及相關的交通服務設施的無障礙環境所以這個在這一次的修法裡面在58條之一跟54條我們都會有這樣的這個這個"},{"start":6952.513,"end":6971.531,"text":"修法的方向如果有改善方案的話那也麻煩布里把相關的這些成果或方案寄一份資料到我們辦公室給我們做參考我們很快把那個我們的修法的那個行政院的版本來給委員來參考那就麻煩了"},{"start":6972.091,"end":6990.873,"text":"那其實我們也看到其實很多無障礙的電梯其實也讓我們這些推著娃娃車身障者在處理的過程裡面其實也面臨到一些辛苦的部分2020年交通部的運輸研究所曾經針對大眾運輸廠站的這個無障礙電梯使用的情形做過調查"},{"start":6992.234,"end":7017.14,"text":"結果只有24%的使用者會主動的禮讓給相關需要推嬰兒車或者是像我們的生長者他這些輪椅處理的過程這個當然是需要有一個好的公民教育那如何能夠讓這些高齡者未來在使用上也好生長者在使用也好甚至是推著娃娃車的這些使用者也好如何能夠得到大家好的支持"},{"start":7017.84,"end":7040.16,"text":"當然我們也了解這個也是屬於像以捷運為例的話就是台北捷運需要能夠做適當的來處理那這部分有沒有機會也可以透過各種的方式來改善或者是讓這些使用這個無障礙電梯的部分能夠在好的時間裡面就能夠使用到這些必要的設施"},{"start":7042.302,"end":7062.8,"text":"這個確實我們台灣今年就邁入超高齡社會所以不是只有身心障礙者其實對高齡者的行的安全跟方便性無障礙這個都是應該要一併考慮進來所以這個我們在修法裡面這一次行政院版本也是將通用設計這個概念導入"},{"start":7063.621,"end":7090.32,"text":"那麼包含到無障礙的交通設施運輸服務等等都要一併的各級政府要考慮進來當然對民眾的宣導也很重要我的理解也是在捷運站或者是高鐵站其實也都有無障礙電梯只不過民眾的宣導 理讓的部分我們可以再多強化"},{"start":7090.68,"end":7114.063,"text":"是 所以這部分就麻煩部長 針對於這個期待我們這些官員們也應該要去做實際上的體驗現在到底身心障礙者在公共場域所會面臨的問題那另外希望能夠加強宣導跟地方政府合作讓這些可以被使用的部分可以真的實際上發揮它好的作用"},{"start":7114.563,"end":7143.558,"text":"那當然這一部分也都需要請衛福部能夠確實的督導我們也瞭解這個很多都是各部會的工作一起來努力的地方那下來就是我們要討論的有關於這個友善營業場所剛剛我們看到的就是在外出的第一步就面臨了蠻多的困難可是到了他想要去的場域的時候有沒有友善的這個場所可以讓他在這個出門的自主裡面可以得到最終的結果"},{"start":7144.398,"end":7163.266,"text":"那這邊我們也了解如果說這個環境不友善或者是這個無障礙設施不足動線不清楚的話事實上是有他在實現上的困難就是康健雜誌在去年就說我們的身障者是想好好吃頓飯為什麼這麼困難不管他是在出門的這個過程"},{"start":7164.967,"end":7185.129,"text":"等等我們面臨的這個世道的問題就是台階樓梯門檻凹凸不平的路面不順暢這個當然也都是需要共同來努力的部分那這個環境的不友善當然就會讓這個地方政府在處理的過程當中他需要努力的去再加強那這個部分"},{"start":7186.97,"end":7199.76,"text":"我們了解這個不是衛福部可是呢衛福還是要有監督或者是協助各個部門來做好這個事情那這部分不曉得部長有沒有相關的規劃或者是想法"},{"start":7203.318,"end":7226.207,"text":"這個範圍就很廣了這不是只有這個好那我們看我們有沒有縣市他是怎麼做的我們可以從這個高雄市的這個網頁裡面他們就會用一個友善營業場所來讓高雄市民當他要外出到他的地方的時候不管是要做醫療服務做餐飲做一般商店的服務模式"},{"start":7226.687,"end":7246.745,"text":"他可以讓這個網頁裡面去讓民眾知道如果他需要這些比較特殊服務的時候那能不能夠有一個好的指引讓市民可以去參考當然我們理解不可能要求所有針對於身障的這些我們的民眾們都能夠達到"},{"start":7248.346,"end":7272.924,"text":"他所需要的所有的要求可是如果有好的指引模式的話我相信對身障朋友來講應該會有很好的一種感受所以期待說我們能不能夠透過這個友善營業場所的指引的制定透過主管機關來協助他們制定包括這個指引應該有可行的改善清單跟分級標準友善服務的交易訓練模組"},{"start":7274.425,"end":7286.454,"text":"資訊可及性的具體做法跟地方政府的輔導跟鼓勵制度讓這個民眾尤其是身障者在出門的過程裡面就可以有預先可以判斷這部分是不是也可以請部長來處理"},{"start":7287.649,"end":7311.991,"text":"很謝謝委員提出這樣的方向因為我們確實是希望能夠讓無障礙的空間設施能夠普及但是很多的場所確實也誘於它的物理實際空間的限制有時候也不容易達到無障礙設施或無障礙環境的要求但是在"},{"start":7314.153,"end":7331.736,"text":"既有的條件限制下那麼如何能夠提供更友善於無障礙者或者是高齡者的這個生活或者是活動的空間這個是一個很重要的方向那我們來了解一下這個高雄"},{"start":7332.677,"end":7357.626,"text":"市政府他們所做的這個友善營業場所的指引大概內容是什麼樣那也許我們來參考訂定一個全國性可以通用的建議也是一個如果有相關的規劃的時候也可以讓辦公室知道部長請問最後有一個問題想要請教一下勞動部有請這個發展署的司副署長"},{"start":7359.031,"end":7373.258,"text":"來 副組長請到你了就是有關於剛剛提到很多的重症家庭包括他身上的部分我們也了解其實目前全國這個身心障礙者的統計差不多有123萬人"},{"start":7375.299,"end":7392.541,"text":"那屬於比較極重度跟重度的就有34萬人就是有四分之一左右那這個部分呢將來他們除了有長照需求以外也有很多都可能會申請有移工的需求來協助包括個人助理或者是生活助理協助等等"},{"start":7393.001,"end":7421.54,"text":"那這部分我們也了解其實這些家庭本來就非常非常的辛苦所以他們對所有的資源都非常的珍惜的同時也期待有更好的方式來協助他們那這個議題之前也跟部長討論過如何有沒有機會來評估停徵重症家庭申請移工的就業安定費的部分那記得上一次部長說部裡面會積極的來研議所以這部分也麻煩副署長"},{"start":7423.301,"end":7440.851,"text":"看能不能說明目前的研議的狀況如果今天不方便回答的話那也可不可以再麻煩跟部長進一步討論針對於這個中正家庭申請移工的就業安定費這個部分目前的進度狀況"},{"start":7442.112,"end":7470.479,"text":"向委員報告一下上次有提過這個案子那也跟委員再補充說明我們目前對於這個加刊裡面呢20萬人裡面大概中低低收或者領有身心障礙的生活補助或者領有老人福利法的生活津貼的這一群人已經都有減免那大概是1.2萬人那因為就業安定基金的減免會涉及到整個基金來源的穩定"},{"start":7471.419,"end":7498.772,"text":"有考慮到因為整個救援基金會做就業服務還有外國聘僱管理這段但是部長也很重視所以其實我們是有持續的在收集各界的意見然後再來做一些通盤的考量那謝謝委員指教好那可不可以如果有考量一個月可以讓我們也知道這個考量的內容如何好那就麻煩了謝謝好謝謝好謝謝文委員好謝謝我們現在休息十分鐘謝謝"},{"start":7533.732,"end":7541.714,"text":"我每次看到都推他,所以你就再也不來,這很好,我每次都沒有來這樣子繼續救我。"},{"start":8174.059,"end":8185.128,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來請盧縣議委來做詢問好 各位請回座 開會了喔好 這是有請部長來 請部長"},{"start":8194.538,"end":8212.714,"text":"盧委員好部長好通常我們在面對原住民身障者的時候我們先看一下他的背景目前我們原住民身障人數大概2萬多人大概中度以上大概上來60%也就是大概1萬2千多人不過在我們常常會面臨到一些問題比如說你在申請資源的時候他會"},{"start":8214.375,"end":8237.429,"text":"認為說你是原住民所以常常原住民跟生長者的身份他就只能選擇一個有的時候這個窗口可能要想一下如何來整合第二個就是說我們常常在立法的時候比較沒有原名的概念所以比較會就沒有所謂文化敏感度 視切性這些所以可能往後這些我們在立法的時候可能都要"},{"start":8238.57,"end":8255.127,"text":"去面面俱到然后现在我们看到这些我们的深藏的鉴定它心智里面我们所谓的第一码第一码也就是说它的活动参与跟环境因素可能没有办法去来"},{"start":8256.368,"end":8279.526,"text":"真切的去反映它实际的状况所以我们这个部分在评估的时候可能这个还是要我们立法者或者说我们行政部门来替我们身上者来想我们在原住民地区还有看到一些就是偏乡啊贫穷啊还有歧视这些交织而成的一些真实的障碍然后我们有些我们科幻印象应该也要偏偏"},{"start":8280.387,"end":8304.414,"text":"去刪除所以我們來盤點一下現在各個行政我們的縣市有真正有公部門來經營的其實寥寥可數只有我們原住民地區的地方只有苗栗縣有公辦民營的部分在桃園有一間然後苗栗一間然後屏東四間所以我們原住民地區居住的縣市你看這些"},{"start":8305.874,"end":8334.422,"text":"公部門或者是公辦民營的幾乎是寥寥可數所以我們原住民要居住一些機構性的話其實是雪上加霜所以然後加上我們的環境的障礙你購買輔具的時候其實很多都不適合我們在偏鄉的一個實際的居住所以可能這個部分也是要去努力然後我們的資源真空就是說我們交通不便常常沒有辦法去真正享受到政府的美意然後我們的牢牢照顧"},{"start":8335.282,"end":8347.99,"text":"像我们是长者在照顾长者然后未成年的子女在照顾长者这样的一个状况然后我们刚刚就说了我们盘点以后几乎没有看到我们园乡有很完整的一个长照"},{"start":8350.572,"end":8374.798,"text":"全日型的一個機構那我們現在盤點一下我們現在面臨的困境像我們之前我有提過說是不是能夠真正的有一個住宿型的長照機構那我想說請部長看看你現在的你們的辦理進度如何因為你們之前有說要由長照社區共生互助計畫事辦計畫的研擬我想聽看看你們的目前的規劃"},{"start":8378.351,"end":8388.019,"text":"委員指教的是有關於在原住民族地區的住宿型長照機構對 沒錯好 那個是不是我們請長照施助市長來說明一下"},{"start":8390.031,"end":8400.798,"text":"跟委員報告那目前在平原的部分目前是有的可是山原的部分確實現在是沒有那我們現階段有在推所謂的這個加拖全日行的那目前是用一個衛生所那試著改建之後讓他可以這個提供24小時的服務那現在也在花蓮現在也還沒現在還在準備當中我是希望能夠進度能夠快一點然後"},{"start":8419.15,"end":8433.273,"text":"因為我們目前還是停留在事半的階段接下來我們在修法的核心部分就叫我們部長先讓CRPD這個部分我想知道部長你知道P是什麼意思嗎"},{"start":8435.748,"end":8464.194,"text":"P是什么意思P就是personal那所谓我们在看中文跟英文的差别就是说其实你从他的P就会知道说他是把他当做一个人嘛所以可是我们现在现行的规定就是比较狭隘只有在就是考试啊协助这些我们要的就是就业医疗教育居住这些等等领域有时因为你把他看成是一个人personal disability所以你才可以去想办法帮他"},{"start":8464.634,"end":8482.702,"text":"把他们的这些修法能够周全所以我们就有一些合理调整的一些想法就是针对我们原住民地区我们希望到评估工具服务输送的方式跟交通的配套来这边做合理调整所有的调整的方法合理调整这个修法有大概有6条第6第721536171号"},{"start":8485.823,"end":8514.02,"text":"有些程序上的比如说你要有文化敏感度比如说你的标准上面你是不是有文化背景地理特殊性这些然后我们的服务的输送是不是你有去解决我们身上的交通不便所导致的这些就医困难所以我们这边也有提到我们环境跟财务调整比如说我们的交通的优先预约或者是费用补贴这个部分第六十一条就是沟通有的时候是不是要经历手语或是同步听打的这些试剧"},{"start":8515.201,"end":8536.438,"text":"視訊遠距服務然後最後一個71號就是希望有財務跟物流的調整希望這些府居的這些維修啊或者是載送啊或者是就是以後他有損壞的時候有那些定期倒載的去維修的這樣一個服務然後在自主選擇部分我大概有提了四條那自主選擇當然我們就希望"},{"start":8536.958,"end":8555.289,"text":"一直在在而上在講原鄉住宿住宿型的長照機構也就是CRPD的第十九條所謂的去機構教養化他希望能夠充分融入社會所以我們的自主選擇裡面我們我提了四個修法也就是第十條第五十條第六十三條跟七十四條"},{"start":8556.129,"end":8569.862,"text":"希望在決策參與跟在地化自主支持跟居住選擇彈性以及人格尊嚴跟文化尊重這方面來達到一些我們的修法的一些概念所以我最後再提一個問題就是說"},{"start":8571.984,"end":8592.546,"text":"請未博部能夠承諾在三個月內可以向本席提交詳盡的原鄉地區住宿性長照服務及身心障礙者在地支持評估報告我希望有五個內容就是文化視線性跟服務的模式第二個就是財政跟資源的穩定性第三個就是緩解家庭的經濟負擔"},{"start":8593.747,"end":8617.837,"text":"第四个是人才培育跟留任的策略第五个就是自主选择跟非机构化的路径我们一直希望能够原住民乡能够有住宿型长照机构我们的原则其实就是CRPD八大原则里面的第三项也就是充分的融入社会所以我们一而再再而三的希望说部长能够把这些我讲的重点"},{"start":8618.337,"end":8642.536,"text":"能夠銘記在心因為我們原鄉確實需要政府特別的資源跟經費來投入我們才可以真正照顧我們現在所看到的2萬多人裡面30%的重度然後重重度以上是60%也就是1萬2千多人所以這些山區在全國各地的一些偏遠地區希望"},{"start":8643.296,"end":8665.628,"text":"部長能夠心心念念對我們原住民身心障礙者在你的心目中好不好謝謝委員因為還沒有看到這個委員的版本我們再向您請教最後的時間20秒左右我再問你說新竹發生老師跟學生在19天之內雙雙墜樓的這個事件請問部長你有掌握嗎"},{"start":8667.073,"end":8682.701,"text":"這個送醫的部分我有大概瞭解他馬上就到我說這兩個案子有關聯性嗎那但是這個關聯性的部分我要再進一步瞭解那希望部長能夠關心謝謝謝謝盧委員 謝謝部長 請回接下來請廖偉祥 趙偉來做懸答"},{"start":8700.44,"end":8709.018,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝趙偉那請這個 請部長六元好"},{"start":8710.65,"end":8739.306,"text":"我想今天其實還有我其實最近在看還是有今天是審查這個身心障礙者權益保障法但我想在開始詢答之前我還是觀察到有一些不管是民間或者是有一些狀況還是會用殘障這兩個字來稱呼障礙者我想這是比較不友善的語句所以還是要先強調我們的法規是從早期的殘福法都已經證明為身心障礙者權益保障所以希望各界還是以障礙者作為稱呼"},{"start":8740.367,"end":8759.002,"text":"那我想今天身權法的修法不僅是這個行政管理的技術性的調整其實是必須是一場關於權力主體性的法律革命是要將身心障礙者從被照顧的課題要轉化為擁有完整決策權的公民"},{"start":8760.083,"end":8780.633,"text":"所以其實目前部長有很多生權法有不同的委員有提出不同的版本大概有21個那後面也陸陸續續有多個提新的那我每個去看了一下每個委員關注的重點也不盡相同但是唯獨不見到我們的部會的或者行政院的版本請問一下你們的版本什麼時候會送出來"},{"start":8782.508,"end":8801.068,"text":"跟委員報告行政院基本上之前是已經完成審查但是因為上個禮拜有跟這個身障團體在進行會面之後討論完之後我們再修了一下所以我們應該是在這個月底或者是下個月初就會送到台這個月底或下個月初"},{"start":8801.829,"end":8820.488,"text":"因為根據我的統計生權法上一屆排審的情況如圖即便有數次的逐條審查其實但在111年底以後就沒有再排審過最終也是無疾而終所以我想大家也知道這個重中之重的其中一點也是所謂的個人助理的制度入法"},{"start":8821.108,"end":8834.881,"text":"那個人助理的問題呢其實本席在6月的時候也問過前部長啊那也在質詢台上面放過這個育姊障礙者育姊的影片想要請問一下部長你個人支持個人各助的制度入法嗎"},{"start":8836.162,"end":8862.53,"text":"基本上我們是很支持這個自立生活服務這一項這個已經在法裡面那麼在自立生活裡頭呢那麼個人助理是其中一個選項那在我們的這個身心障礙者個人照顧服務辦法裡面就有專章去列出那麼個人助理的相關那至於說是不是要更細節性的規範我們認為是讓他留在你跟我們的這個"},{"start":8865.911,"end":8867.075,"text":"我們的這個障礙者團體們"},{"start":8868.622,"end":8896.898,"text":"溝通完之後你認為是你還是覺得說現在的是夠的嗎那不然他們怎麼還是我覺得大家還是知道重重之重當然是不夠那它的狀況有幾個情形一個是各地的地方政府的執行的不一致那這個呢跟入不入法大概不見得有直接關係來 部長我跟你說啦因為生權法本屆算是重新捲土再來啦那我也要特別感謝這個劉建國召委排這個綜合的巡打"},{"start":8897.378,"end":8919.109,"text":"那希望你們的機關可以儘速提出一個可以讓大家權衡完之後大家都滿意的版本那這次的因為生權法大修其實是攸關許多這個障礙者的權益問題所以包含著幾個重要的核心議題會議代表席次的比例啊無障礙空間啊合理調整的具體措施跟申訴管道啊資訊無障礙等等"},{"start":8919.509,"end":8936.372,"text":"通行無障礙還有通用設計等等我想每一項都是有關於每一位障礙者的生活起居所以還是呼籲可以儘速的排這個竹條審查你們的版本也趕快進來好那因為我要再次講支持這個擴大自立生活他其實不僅"},{"start":8937.293,"end":8954.209,"text":"不僅是人權問題人權很重要不僅是人權問題其實它也是經濟議題因為根據110年的身心障礙者生活狀況調查這個勞動參與率的低落那身心障礙者勞動力參與率大概是22.2那遠低於全國平均的59%"},{"start":8955.911,"end":8973.12,"text":"那再來就是家庭照顧負擔的部分其實主要照顧者多為女性比如說配偶或母親那她們多數的年齡也介於45到64歲那她長期的照顧責任也會讓這些女性退出勞動力的市場也形成了所謂的可能一人障礙全家貧窮的惡性循環"},{"start":8974.741,"end":8989.53,"text":"所以我相信要提供充足的個人助理服務才釋放家庭照顧者的勞動力並且支持身心障礙者進入職場從長遠來看是有具體正向的社會投資回報率"},{"start":8990.35,"end":9010.574,"text":"所以我這部分要提供這些相關數據告訴部長請你們好好的回去慎重的考慮慎重的調整所以再進一步我就要講到有關於這個身障者的身心障礙者的職場的困境所以剛剛有講到包含最新這個勞動部113年辦理的身心障礙者勞動調查狀況那113年5月的身心障礙者勞動參與率僅有21.9%"},{"start":9017.876,"end":9038.826,"text":"那失業率高達7.1%那剛剛也有講到遠低於全體人口那更令人擔憂的是身心障礙就業者每月的主要工作收入平均大概是3.1萬那其中低於基本工資的部分高達了32.5%那月領沒有滿4萬元的佔了45.9%所以想要請問一下這個部分要請勞動部"},{"start":9047.063,"end":9069.437,"text":"勞動部的代表請問一下這個針對障礙族群就業低薪問題尤其是三成收入是低於這個基本工資那5成8低於是沒有到4萬請問一下明年的工資再調整之後整體所得不到最低工資的狀況會不會更加的惡化那你們未來有沒有什麼具體的機制可以幫助他們的就業"},{"start":9071.075,"end":9092.791,"text":"向委員報告就是對於身心障礙的就業促進我們其實是全方面的在做服務那一般如果具有就業能力他在公立就業服務機構其實我們一年大概都可以推介三萬多人就業那還有但是數據看起來就是不夠好啊對你所以你覺得目前的數據你是滿意的嗎"},{"start":9094.152,"end":9112.999,"text":"呃有努力的空間因為以目前來講深藏的失業人數是18000多人啊那我們會精進的他的勞產因為在深藏人口裡面100多萬其實呃他的勞產率就很低嘛對因為他有一大半比例其實是65歲以上好沒關係然後不如我跟你說你同一份調查報告啊"},{"start":9114.059,"end":9140.957,"text":"身心障礙者受雇者遭受不公平待遇者是7.9%那其中這工作配置不公平占3.7%是最多那然而調查沒有詳細的區分所謂的配置不公平是指薪資啦升遷啦還是班次的安排或工作內容等等喔其實你沒有辦法精確的掌握他所謂的差別待遇職場差別待遇的具體樣態到底是什麼那希望你們在所謂的"},{"start":9141.798,"end":9168.472,"text":"努力的空間就是你在調查的時候你應該要再更精確精細一點你才知道到底怎麼樣對症下藥那更關鍵的是其實多數的就業障礙者也反映工作時間或內容不適合自己是佔這個13.9%還有找不到長期穩定工作佔9.1%那這也反映出雖然名義上就業實質上卻面臨這個工作環境 班制或是工作量沒有經合理調整的困境"},{"start":9169.432,"end":9195.591,"text":"所以這個身心障礙者會不會是大部分是想也想要再請問一下身心障礙者會不會是因為大部分是部分工時工導致這個收入過低你們有調查這些事情嗎部分工時非典的就業人數是有的是比較高他目前以看到的比例是26%所以我想要問他們到底真的是負荷不了全時工作還是工時安排不合理"},{"start":9199.414,"end":9218.643,"text":"好你現在不用回答我我看你是回答不太出來因為因為我就要回過頭子就是說你的調查就是不夠詳盡本本現在看你們的調查報告的時候就不夠詳盡好所以我想要說包含的就是勞動部今年你們7月1號公布身心障礙者職場合理調整行政指導"},{"start":9219.663,"end":9232.589,"text":"對但是你的行政指導沒有強制性的規範那請問勞動部你們未來會考慮將合理的調整義務納入法律條文嗎我是提供說去這個並對於拒絕提供合理調整的雇主設置處罰機制嗎會嗎這個我請"},{"start":9241.375,"end":9269.787,"text":"請問目前對於16條如果把合理調整列入這個申請法的這個部分我們其實尊重主管機關的意見那我們勞動部在沒有修法之前我們已經先做了一個合理調整的行政指導就是已經也是體驗到說現在身障者在職場上 但像本席剛剛說的其實是沒有強制性的那請問部長或者是我們勞動部代表你們你們的態度會有想要把這個"},{"start":9271.068,"end":9291.978,"text":"跟委員報告就是說目前行政院的版本裡頭的草案是有把合理調整這個概念把它入法了這是第一個那至於說相對應的罰則的部分因為這個樣態很多而且這個概念還是一直在持續的推廣中所以在罰則的部分"},{"start":9292.578,"end":9320.55,"text":"是不是要透過協商機制或後續的一些行政救濟作為還是要直接就入法變成罰則的部分這個怕未來在財量上會有它的難度所以你目前是不傾向這樣子去做就是直接用罰則就是入法罰則的部分我們是才比較保守但是把這個合理調整這個相關規定把它入法我們是支持"},{"start":9321.53,"end":9346.786,"text":"好那部長再來下一個問題除了就業遇到困境其實身心障礙者在退休方面也是有很大的困難那也根據你們衛福部委託的身心障礙者提前老化以及平均餘命基礎研究的報告指出對不對極重度極重度身心障礙者的老化年齡顯早於一般的民眾啦那勞動部的調查也是這樣身心障礙者"},{"start":9347.566,"end":9365.388,"text":"平均退休年齡較全體勞工提前7.9歲那反映其身心功能退化問題嚴重且普遍那現行制度是要求身心障礙者跟一般勞工都適用相同的退休年齡也導致這個身心障礙者在工作後期承受的過度負擔"},{"start":9366.169,"end":9387.627,"text":"那退休後也面臨所謂的經濟安全保障不足的情況所以這情況也有違社會對於這個保險保障弱勢的立法目的也沒有辦法達到身障權法的第47條的要求所以本席有提案這個極重度和重度身心障礙者年滿55歲可以提前退休"},{"start":9388.528,"end":9400.505,"text":"雖然不能夠針對全體的身心障礙者但至少可以針對最需要協助的這個重度以上的身心障礙者請問兩位是否支持請問不管是我們的衛福部長或是勞動部代表從"},{"start":9404.1,"end":9430.799,"text":"從我們的這個從健康的角度來看是可以考慮的方向啦因為在有一些比較所謂的過勞的這個在醫院裡面也有啦就按照他的工作勤這個勞力這個intensity就是那個強度是比較高的也有一些提早退休跟一般所以簡單來講部長是覺得可以是可以支持"},{"start":9431.959,"end":9455.241,"text":"可以支持的嗎 對好 謝謝部長的回答所以本席剛剛整段的邏輯想要告訴你們的事情就是其實在於職場的部分第一個勞動部的調查應該要更加的詳盡然後第二個就是說你要怎麼樣去鼓勵職場對他們更加的友善以及要刺激他們願意我們的這個身障者願意真的投入正職的工作"},{"start":9456.082,"end":9483.266,"text":"所以本席也在這裡希望你們在對於這個身障的未來的這個推廣或是希望他們勞參率提高或是投入正職的部分是不是可以用更多的獎勵的方式或者是勞動部這邊是不是可以去替這些身障就業者加薪或是改聘為這個全職員工這個部分你們有沒有相關的政策工具你們回去研議提供給本席辦公室好不好好 謝謝那大概兩個禮拜可不可以"},{"start":9484.175,"end":9506.118,"text":"好那我主席還可以再給我一點時間嗎好我再講一個最後一題有關於其實我想要請教育部的代表教育部有沒有教育部今天有教育部的代表嗎教育部對有嗎有教育部的代表請教育部的代表許副市長"},{"start":9513.035,"end":9535.863,"text":"副市長我這裡有一題就是我想要請教一下現在許多家長有過度依賴用3C產品去跟這個他的學齡前的幼兒去讓他依賴這些用這個3C產品其實他造成了學齡前的幼兒的視力以及情緒甚至心理狀況都是有很大的影響那這種影響不會隨著年齡的增加而減少反而有越來越"},{"start":9536.983,"end":9557.757,"text":"依賴的嚴重趨勢喔那其實這種現象也反映在幼教以及中小學的這個教育現場所以有時候小朋友可能只是單純的情緒障礙或是有其他生理或心理的因素造成學習上的不專注但是他們可能會被誤以為是過動或ADHD或者是ASD或是妥瑞氏症等等喔"},{"start":9558.417,"end":9577.59,"text":"這情況是有機會透過這個督促行為改變或者是教學達到改善但這就必須透過家長跟老師的配合請教司長你看過這份關懷過動寶貝父母自助檢查表嗎報告委員我是第一次看到"},{"start":9577.961,"end":9602.13,"text":"你是第一次看到是不是好這份檢查表雖然不是一份正式的量表但是在教育現場有許多的老師和家長使用那聽說他的成效還不錯所以想要請教副市長會不會考慮將這份檢查表擴大使用或者是請一些學者專家將這份檢查表透過科學的方式來發展為本土的檢查量表這樣子的好處是避免"},{"start":9602.85,"end":9628.728,"text":"家長或教師因為不了解而直接將小朋友過早的就是介入醫療介入這樣子的就是因為聯合國的這個兒童權利委員會其實在多次的結論性的意見中也表明其實有許多國家都過度診斷ADHD和自閉症就會對於這些兒童有過早和過量的使用精神科藥物"},{"start":9630.051,"end":9658.944,"text":"所以我的意思是這個請問你可不可以去回去評估一下可以 謝謝委員的提供那這部分我們回去會找一些學者專家還有現場的實務老師來進一步做一些討論然後進一步研究這個你們要趕快喔我覺得這是一個嚴重的問題喔因為你過度治療的時候你會影響到整個兒童的就是他未來的狀況都會有很嚴重的影響所以我看這個部長也在旁邊頻頻點頭我現在想這個部長的部分是不是也可以協助一下教育部這個部分"},{"start":9659.264,"end":9680.166,"text":"會不會從醫學的觀點來提供協助對因為所以所以我想要講的進一步的再提醒我現在沒有辦法把這題問完因為我當然我知道時間有超過包含著這個就會接續到像現在北榮有這個向日葵學院很多時候你們兩個部會會推來推去包含衛福部跟教育部"},{"start":9680.606,"end":9705.157,"text":"像Ruquit學員就是希望在很多的比較嚴重的這種精神障礙的狀況之下的小朋友他可以邊接受治療邊上學因為現在很多時候你停止上學你讓他去接受治療最後他再回去的時候他沒有辦法融入那個學習生活然後最後又再一個反向循環又要再回來出來治療所以這部分導致的原因就是對於教育部來講那是衛福部的事對於衛福部來講那是教育部的事情"},{"start":9706.314,"end":9725.328,"text":"你們是不是應該要有一個專案小組去合併起來去研究這件事情怎麼推廣到台灣其他地方因為這個是有他必要性以及真的比較重度的需求的時候應該要有這個狀況可不可以請部長答應分析跟委員報告我也請我們心理健康師對於這一些"},{"start":9726.368,"end":9750.546,"text":"治療時間特別是在醫院裡面治療時間比較長的需要比較長的這些孩子來盤點一下看看怎麼樣讓他在這個比較長的這個治療時間當中不至於這個在學習上面產生斷層這個我們來好 謝謝部長承諾本席請問多久可以給本席一個大概的這個或是一個報告和研議的方向陳市長"},{"start":9753.888,"end":9758.451,"text":"三個月一個月好不好一個月一個月好好謝謝謝謝趙偉謝謝好謝謝請回接下來請圖全體委員來做詢答好謝謝主席那請問史部長來部長"},{"start":9782.452,"end":9799.7,"text":"好 土偉好好 部長我請問一下你知不知道我們衛福部有一個護理友善職場典範計畫你知道這個計畫嗎有有有在我們那個12項護理改革計畫裡面有那它這個計畫主要是要做什麼"},{"start":9801.093,"end":9820.7,"text":"就是在鼓勵醫院去提供對於護理人員的工作條件還有環境的改善這樣對 然後我們看一下它主要內容也有針對我們培訓新生代護理師也有做頒獎還有查核三班互併比的"},{"start":9821.44,"end":9831.727,"text":"比例有沒有達標所以因為我們現在他如果醫院申報他達標有達標的獎勵所以他是負責這些的工作那我們這個護理友善職場典範計畫那這個他這個招標的單位是不是應該要屬於比較專業性的一些單位來承辦這個工作"},{"start":9849.821,"end":9851.676,"text":"我請那個副市長來說明一下"},{"start":9853.352,"end":9877.467,"text":"對 有考量到這個案子喔就是有專業的部分那也有一些行政的一個協助所以我們在這邊要設計很多友善職場的一個指標認證要找專家開會所以我們是用專業性的一個招標案來處理對 因為我們看它這個工作嘛你上面評選項目有講要專業能力然後相關計畫的承辦經驗那"},{"start":9881.516,"end":9906.37,"text":"你應該知道這個是限制性招標對不對那標到的單位是哪一個單位永續基金會台灣永續能源基金會那台灣永續能源基金會那據我們了解它的專業好像是屬於氣候變遷跟環境保護還有永續發展跟永續能源那不知道這個跟我們護理有什麼相關"},{"start":9907.54,"end":9929.341,"text":"跟護理的專業沒有直接相關不過他的行政的能力跟永續發展整個企業的一個管理是蠻有專業的一個高度的一個經驗所以我們現在像我們查這個達標有沒有達標是現在是由醫院自己報對不對對"},{"start":9931.024,"end":9950.511,"text":"那醫院自己報那有沒有達標是由誰去查核我們有我們未來這個案子裡面會有一個專業審查的團隊他是在幫我們做行政的一個管理的那不是這個不是這個不是這個計劃裡面對在計劃裡面但是他是專管的一個角色專案管理的角色那我們會有團隊裡面就我們專業的人員"},{"start":9953.487,"end":9977.903,"text":"所以因為我看這個計畫裡面它就有負責針對三班戶病病是否達標那它這個是否達標然後我們了解好像它並不是主動性去查而是如果有人檢舉有問題或者有異常才會主動去查對不對我們會列入一個例行性的一個查核對 因為我們現在是想了解一下"},{"start":9979.093,"end":10005.899,"text":"因為這個單位其實原則上看起來它跟我們這個計畫好像不是感覺並不是它的一個專業的一個單位一個基金會那我們花了995萬然後用限制性招標讓台灣永續能源研究基金會去承辦這個業務那看起來好像並不是我們評選屬於專業能力"},{"start":10009.435,"end":10026.925,"text":"這個項目吧我們評選的項目當然就是針對我們需要他委託的一些作為譬如說他可以有辦法去幫我們去找專家然後設計一些我們評選的指標然後做後續的相關的一個管理"},{"start":10027.025,"end":10051.577,"text":"而且像針對三班互併比這是否達標而且我們這個計畫並不是主動去查而是說如果有人檢舉或者有異常我們才去查那如果說沒有人檢舉沒有異常那等於他就不用去做對不對我們在設計裡面印象我們是有一個routine的查核的機制這個細細的部分我們會再提供"},{"start":10052.455,"end":10078.846,"text":"那我覺得這一部分我們是有一點疑議那是不是可以在一週內提供它的執行相關的計畫沒問題它到底這個基金會到底要執行哪些業務我們列了蠻多項的因為900多萬要做的事情很多因為看起來這限制性招標它要有專業的優勢等等我們是不了解說看起來這跟環境部好像比較有關係吧"},{"start":10080.619,"end":10103.506,"text":"因為它這個台灣永續能源基金會限制性招標標到我們護理友善職場典範認證計畫看起來不太相關所以我們想說是不是把我們相關的執行計畫讓我們來瞭解一下好 謝謝委員這個案子我會進一步來深入瞭解然後也會請A5單位再跟委員說明"},{"start":10104.646,"end":10122.291,"text":"對 因為看起來這個995萬的這個費用然後他本身又不用主動去查而是說有人檢舉或有異常他主動去查那我們這個像連這個頒獎怎麼都還去外包去做那這個我們自己"},{"start":10123.451,"end":10150.127,"text":"衛福部裡面都沒有相關單位能夠處理這些也有一定要花這些錢去給外包的單位去處理嗎所以這部分請部長針對相關執行計畫讓我們來了解一下因為我們有一點疑義啦好 謝謝委員的提醒好 那相關執行計畫再提供給本席好 那還有我們最近因為內政部有做了一些影片"},{"start":10151.602,"end":10174.043,"text":"還有發給小紅書平台上面說小紅書內容有違反兒少性剝削防治條例那我想請問一下我們衛福部有接收到相關的這些檢舉的訊息嗎那為什麼內政部說小紅書裡面有違反這些的"},{"start":10175.506,"end":10199.514,"text":"有違反兒少性剝削防治條例那我們衛福部有介紹這些相關的案子有檢舉有這些相關的案情嗎相關詳細的內容我們再了解一下之後再跟委員說明好了對啊 這個衛福部我們不是應該針對這部分應該是主管單位嘛那為什麼內政部有這些影片"},{"start":10200.939,"end":10214.666,"text":"那我們也沒有收因為我們問過衛福部啦衛福部說也沒有收到警政署跟刑事局這些的通報那為什麼內政部會我們看他有發一個公文說"},{"start":10216.212,"end":10236.551,"text":"小红书平台有违反儿童及少年性剥削防治条例这些事情那我们卫福部主管单位居然都没有讯息为什么内政部会有这个讯息因为可能他们自己先处理的那么我们没有进一步的讯息也有可能我们来细不了解之后整理起来"},{"start":10237.171,"end":10251.079,"text":"對啊 因為我們那時候聽到內政部講那我們也想了解說到底是為什麼有哪些屬於有哪一些案子有違反了兒童性剝削防治條例可是問衛福部衛福部說"},{"start":10253.2,"end":10268.961,"text":"都沒有收到警政署或刑事局的相關的因為這個條例所涵蓋的樣態蠻多的所以我們再來細節的部分我們來進一步了解對啊 那你可以幫我了解一下內政部為什麼說有這樣的案子因為你一定有實據你要"},{"start":10271.204,"end":10293.117,"text":"小紅書平台你說有這些實據那可是衛福部主管單位居然都沒有這些訊息那為什麼內政部會有這些訊息我們來細部的了解一下對啊 因為我們也想了解到底是哪些案子在小紅書平台發生這些案子那居然主管單位都沒有然後居然是內政部去發布"},{"start":10294.538,"end":10316.072,"text":"那部長幫我們了解一下我們來了解一下不過也趁這個機會跟委員說明對於現在在網路上盛行的這些短語音已經有越來越多的研究去證實對兒童的心智發展是有影響那麼特別是它有一些不適當的內容的暴露或者是不適宁"},{"start":10317.152,"end":10331.368,"text":"是訊息的傳播會造成這個長期的認知能力發展的障礙還有學習力無法聚焦甚至影響到情緒上的這個問題引發可能有智商"},{"start":10331.929,"end":10346.862,"text":"等等的所以我們現在也在跟教育部去討論怎麼樣來對於這個青少年兒少的部分呢那麼對於這一些這個短影音的暴露應該要有所限制"},{"start":10347.242,"end":10363.141,"text":"对啊那如果有这样的情势那卫福部应该就要主动去处理啊怎么会是内政部去处理这个案子我们是做通案性的通案性的就是说这一类的短影音的影响对啦我们是希望啦当然通案性"},{"start":10364.081,"end":10381.617,"text":"有發生這些違法的事情我們誤王誤仲但是我們也希望說你也要提出實質的證據出來不能說自己信口開河而且我們衛福部主管單位都沒有說有這樣的事情然後居然是內政部去提出那我們就覺得這很奇怪"},{"start":10382.642,"end":10403.271,"text":"我們進一步來了解好 那請衛福部來掌握一下好那當然有違法我們該處理就處理可是如果沒有我們也不能說自己去憑空猜測嘛是 一定這個勿枉勿重啦 一定是這樣對啊 勿枉勿重嘛但是也不能去沒有實質的事情去憑空去想像"},{"start":10404.893,"end":10421.584,"text":"還有那這邊也跟部長提一下因為我們之前一直有提我們部桃新屋分院第二醫療大樓擴建的案子那後來我們有收到你們的回文說我們大園觀音新屋屬於中壢次醫療區域那"},{"start":10425.839,"end":10442.134,"text":"未達許可辦法第7條鎖定每萬人口50床之限件規定可是這個案子不是一直都說我們現在都計畫在送那可是回這個文怎麼看起來好像沒有要做的意思"},{"start":10443.576,"end":10460.209,"text":"有啊 這個意思就是說這裡的醫療資源還可以有增加的空間所以我們現在目前的新屋分院目前的許可床是170床我們再新增130床左右可以達到300床的規模 未來"},{"start":10461.03,"end":10479.849,"text":"对啊 因为他回这个文给我们感觉好像这个可能写的中文不是写得很好的误解了啦这个是条文里面说这个区域还没有达到这个现建的上限所以我们在计划上是符合这个可以新建的那个客观条件"},{"start":10480.169,"end":10499.544,"text":"我想說這個案子部長我們也提過很多次我在總諮詢也提過那院長也認為說我們沿海的醫療確實要總檢討希望來增加我們沿海醫療資源現在正在那個行政院在審查在國防會給我們一些意見我們也把這個意見再回覆回去的"},{"start":10499.804,"end":10514.222,"text":"對啊 所以我們一直說部桃趕快送計畫希望行政院趕快核定然後趕快經費去編列然後突然你們回這個文給人家看起來好像說什麼未達然後又把我們沿海的然後編列在中壢次醫療區"},{"start":10515.303,"end":10534.042,"text":"那我們當初就講我們本身人口一直在增加再加上我們大園跟觀音本來一直以來就是我們北部最大的跟我們說明就是說我們現在提出的這個計畫是符合這個上限以下啦所以是應該可以可以所以部長這個案子還是繼續會做嗎繼續爭取"},{"start":10536.724,"end":10551.234,"text":"好拜託那這個我想已經進行到我們已經計劃核定就趕快幫我們編列經費不要回個文又說好像沒有達標好像誤解誤解那個是誤解那個是文字上的誤解好謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":10553.459,"end":10563.664,"text":"好 謝謝圖權級委員接下來請范雲委員 范雲委員 范雲委員不在接下來請楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在接下來請劉建國召委發言好 謝謝主席請部長有請時部長"},{"start":10580.619,"end":10599.609,"text":"今天是我們委員會 委員會第二次的針對身心障礙者權利保障法的選打那主要原因是因為 憲政院的版本到現在還沒有送進立法院我想大家都 剛剛都有提過那我要開場白之前 我還是要期許 其實史部長"},{"start":10601.448,"end":10625.801,"text":"就我的認知裡面你是應該對健保的整個制度是非常清楚然後也讓健保可以穩定的合理的這樣做這個需求者的幾戶的捍衛者然後再來也是一個最挺醫事團體醫護人力的最好的一個部長那當然我更希望你是一個最照顧身心障礙者夥伴們的最好的部長"},{"start":10626.917,"end":10650.844,"text":"所以今天要來大修這個生權法這個歷史背景我還是希望部長可以多加以琢磨了這69年訂定的殘障福利法然後一直到了這個1997年的時候 86年我們修正為身心障礙者保護法96年又再修正為身心障礙者權利保障法這整個過程是這樣然後到了這個"},{"start":10653.505,"end":10673.454,"text":"2011年也就是立法院第七屆我跟陳潔篤委員是大修了身權法而且我們是沒有利用委員會的時間自己在同一個時間出來從下午2點一直討論到這個晚上10點在隔壁802的會議室然後把相關的部會通通找來"},{"start":10674.514,"end":10699.752,"text":"大幅的修正然后修正完之后那个时候将近有31个条文通通做调整几个面向就是对身障者的社会参与还有工作培训然后就医的权利交通运输以及自力生活等进行这个修法的强化那在这个过程里面我一直期待这样的修法是会给身心障碍者权利身心障碍者的对象的这些伙伴"},{"start":10700.373,"end":10718.039,"text":"都可以因為這個整部法條的大幅的修正之後相對的所有的面向都可以往上提升不過現在要讓部長來看這樣的相關的一些數據你就知道現今這些身心障礙者的夥伴遇到什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":10721.903,"end":10741.598,"text":"已經有45年的歷史的一個生圈法然後剛剛已經有應該是林委員有特別提出來嘛對不對一個劍動輪代步車用餐要加收2000元這是一家高級餐廳你內容我就不再贅述了這在一個先進的國家怎麼會遇到這種事情這奇異然後"},{"start":10744.13,"end":10757.867,"text":"只是因為多一個電動代步車多一個位置就必須要在原本三個人變成要跟他收取四人的定金跟低效的費用這是那我覺得這比較這個應該該用什麼形容詞"},{"start":10763.803,"end":10782.997,"text":"我想一下等一下再跟你講然後你再看一下我們身心障礙者權利保障法第11條的規定各級政府至少每5年要辦理一次調查收集我國身心障礙者之生活狀況保健醫療特殊教育就業與這個訓練然後交通及福利等需求評估"},{"start":10784.161,"end":10803.804,"text":"我要請教部長 我們有各級政府 先從中央講 中央有嗎五年檢討一次 評估 調查那全國22個縣市有照這樣做嗎那如果沒有照這樣做 那違反生權法第幾條各級政府應該受到什麼樣的懲罰"},{"start":10806.001,"end":10834.797,"text":"有嗎 可以簡單答我這個是沒有罰則啦沒有罰則對 那這個我們上一次是110年的時候我們有這個報告所以現在應該在進行下一期就明年就是五年到了嘛又要再做一次的調查相關的一些檢討跟評估嘛對不對但中央有照這樣做我還是要請教部長22個縣市有照這樣做嗎都有"},{"start":10836.243,"end":10846.617,"text":"如實都有照這樣做我們同仁說有啦都有記錄如果沒有照這樣做有什麼處理的方式"},{"start":10848.092,"end":10866.77,"text":"當然這個目前在這個本法裡面是沒有這個對應法則啦不過我想這個好 我就提醒部長嘛就是沒有對應的法則那是不是在這次修法中行政院的版本應該要把它納入好不好會來提醒各縣 不能只有提醒在法律規範的條文裡面"},{"start":10869.253,"end":10886.296,"text":"不是只有做提醒的功能它不只已經入法了那如果各縣市沒有照這樣去做五年的一次的檢討跟相關調查評估那應該在我們申請委員裡面就必須要把它入法看如何規範 看如何處理 應該可以吧"},{"start":10887.645,"end":10901.812,"text":"我們研究看看啦 不能跟我講說研究看看你連調查的項目也應該要統一啦你這五年各縣市調查的項目有統一嗎 有一致性嗎我的理解沒有啦"},{"start":10902.854,"end":10929.15,"text":"對嘛 這不是很奇怪所以就是有城鄉的落差就是有像現在台北市遇到這麼多的狀況我等一下還有個案例剛剛那個案例也是在台北市那個高級餐廳在台北市在台北市可以遇到這樣的狀況你在一般縣市遇到這種狀況可能會更加嚴峻再請部長看一下這是我調出的生意障礙者最近的近一年的公共運輸使用情形105年"},{"start":10930.973,"end":10949.085,"text":"你們的調查報告有包含這一塊嗎公車它原本是30.25捷運22.39我就不再贅述了啦105對照一年通通平均下降通通平均下降這表格很清楚嘛 部長可以看清楚然後"},{"start":10950.29,"end":10968.147,"text":"生意障礙者在使用大眾運輸的情況之下是全面性的降低然後零最公的應該是最便捷無障礙設計最完善的捷運系統這五年間都還掉了1.32%好 那你可以跟我講說因為疫情啦"},{"start":10969.429,"end":10994.411,"text":"是啊 你可以跟我這麼講啦我知道你一定會這麼講那我們就要看 後疫情的時候他是降還是跌 他還是升嘛 對不對請把那個書記調查清楚之後我們再來說嘛 好不好可不可以不過這五年確實是如此嘛這是一件事情嘛然後再來我還另外一個悲觀公車不友善請部長再看這個報導"},{"start":10996.095,"end":11022.594,"text":"身心障礙者招司機賀賜 硬推倫理這是議員的質詢 然後負申訴比例近七成在哪裡 又在台北市 首善之都餐廳是遇到這種狀況 然後公車又遇到這種狀況台北就發生這種事情了 國際之都欸那你 你狂論其他的五都 狂論一般的縣市"},{"start":11024.158,"end":11052.095,"text":"又會對身心障礙者他們會遭受到什麼樣的這樣的一個對待我一直強調說打造一個無障礙者空間這真的不是只有在保障身心障礙者我們每一個人都沒有辦法保證自己不會雄雄意外雄雄中風雄雄需要使用到無障礙空間嘛對不對當你歧視身心障礙者的朋友的時候當你對這個無障礙空間用不一樣的思維在面對的時候坦白講他的心理是不正常的啦"},{"start":11053.476,"end":11081.577,"text":"他的心理是非常非常的不正常他是在歧視他自己啦他也有可能歧視他未來的親友可能會遭遇到種種的狀況所以今天要大修生權法我覺得不應該緩慢啦不應該再 照理講更應該積極去面對剛剛陳副部長所回應很多委員台灣已經邁入超高齡的社會嘛這個緩慢會不會造成一個障礙"},{"start":11082.697,"end":11110.005,"text":"在行走的過程裡面 在搭車的過程裡面在上下這個公共空間的樓梯裡面它都會緩慢嘛 對不對那是不是屬於也是障礙的一種那怎麼會在台北車站還要有勞不能朝野的委員去跟我們深藏朋友去檢視這樣的一個國際的首都的車站還有這麼不友善的空間不友善的動線"},{"start":11112.819,"end":11134.393,"text":"所以當你看69年修了這個殘障保護法然後再改一個證明到現在然後在我們第七屆又大幅修正的情況之下你就做這樣來檢視你們的五年的檢討調查講一句比較粗魯的你們那種檢討調查所有項目全部通通是障礙的官方就障礙了"},{"start":11138.809,"end":11162.301,"text":"中央跟地方整個調查項目就不統一了就已經有障礙了你如何保障我們全國的身心障礙者這些夥伴這些朋友連修法提出來都必須要排兩次的隨意選的時候你們到現在還沒出來行政院衛福部對不起我不客氣講你們也是在障礙啊思維障礙"},{"start":11167.842,"end":11190.752,"text":"心理障礙 修法障礙全部都障礙所以台灣的身心障礙者朋友怎麼會有一個友善的保護保障提高他們相對安全的一個環境你再看為什麼在這個自立生活裡面會搞得如此 如此的"},{"start":11193.059,"end":11216.88,"text":"讓人家覺得中央地方不同調 認定標準不一不只如此 剛剛部長有一句形容詞特別強調說不管是助理 不管是長照 怎樣的合併使用基本上都不排斥嘛 對不對但是這些夥伴們提出申請的時候不管在中央 不管在地方你們不排斥 但是他們就覺得很多次"},{"start":11218.18,"end":11246.779,"text":"吃到什麼狀況部長可以看一下 僵化的自立生活服務選擇前被剝奪 隱私與尊嚴被侵犯然後僵化的規則 將得於三日前提出申請強制解讀應於三日前申請然後突發狀況常被以沒有計畫書 計畫書上沒有寫然後唯有來駁回 然後時數被切割無法互相挪用且對於協助的定義是狹隘的"},{"start":11248.7,"end":11259.67,"text":"委員會要變更議程都可以兩天前他們一定要三天前而且是因喔所以因三更前要知道他可能會感冒他可能會發燒他可能會跌倒"},{"start":11267.486,"end":11281.452,"text":"怎麼會有一個對生意障礙者權利保障法的一個法律已經大幅修正完之後然後我們希望他們可以走出來他們在走出來的過程裡面不管是就業不管是社區的參與他都可以更"},{"start":11282.253,"end":11291.856,"text":"更加的這樣的自然安全然後政府可以更對他們多加以琢磨的這樣的去做鼓勵然後我們僵化到德變成英"},{"start":11298.271,"end":11324.596,"text":"所以就說他沒破壁都要移工三天後他開始是安裝他是感冒了他是怎麼樣怎麼樣怎樣有這樣的生權法然後生權法的法律修正是這樣讓行政機關僵化到不行然後選擇權被剝奪使用者被禁止選擇或被強迫更換助理禁止與助理私下協調時間"},{"start":11327.201,"end":11353.16,"text":"這個真的是官僚程序 凌駕於真正的需求之上嘛隱私血及尊嚴被侵犯 單位任意拍照過度索取據悉名義的個人行程資訊 車次 菜色有沒有有沒有部長沒辦法答我 我知道你們底下單位有沒有這回事"},{"start":11354.525,"end":11376.622,"text":"甚至還有即時監控形成變動的行為為什麼要一個專章為什麼也是在幫公部門中央跟地方真的有所依據然後可以靈活一些可以站在身心障礙者的對象的一個心境而且實際上的一個需求"},{"start":11378.874,"end":11396.029,"text":"而不是公部門在整個不管是計畫不管是預算執行的過程裡面好像這樣就會怎麼樣那樣就會怎麼樣可能自己有司法性的問題如果申請法修成變成這個樣子那真的是障礙到不行了"},{"start":11399.768,"end":11426.553,"text":"障礙到不行了我今天講這些話不是針對部長啊我只讓部長知道整個原貌整個累積這一二十年來我們大無休法之後怎麼會搞到最後變成讓身心障礙者的朋友到行政院去抗議到立法院來陳抗然後當天又到台北火車站去一天有好幾個身障的團體在對我們中央政府在對地方政府表達訴求表達抗議"},{"start":11429.867,"end":11456.31,"text":"所以現在我們在這個委員會我們會覺得很心痛啦也覺得不知所云所以才今天會快速的要把生存網趕快排進來趕快來做這樣的一個討論所以我希望部長是一個全方位的部長幾個面向裡面你都可以在你這個位置上展現更大的這樣的一個power不過那個同理心"},{"start":11457.068,"end":11479.994,"text":"那個站在他們的角度 站在他們遇到的狀況你實際上去了解 去理解之後你才知道他們為什麼今天要再走上街頭來對行政院跟對立法院表達這樣的一個抗議跟訴求最後我再補一點 剛剛部長有答覆某一個委員講到回胖症的問題"},{"start":11482.943,"end":11496.171,"text":"我覺得剛剛很可惜因為今天是針對神絕緣法我一直也提醒大家各位委員就針對身心障礙者朋友遇到的狀況我們大家可以及時廣義因為我剛剛整個跟藝術組在討論這個20幾個版本總共要修的法條並審將近高達177條177條所以審查審查起來的時間還算是滿農場的"},{"start":11510.852,"end":11537.373,"text":"我們對一般的回胖者我們就會care我們就會在意的你知道這個身心障礙者有回胖症的比例有多高嗎行動不便長期累積下來然後運動量不足然後社區參與不夠然後就申請了一個自力生活申請一個個人助理反正就是障礙重重的情況之下"},{"start":11540.492,"end":11561.037,"text":"貧窮肥胖永遠跟身障者沒有辦法脫離如果今天要去處理一般的肥胖者部長在這邊能不能對我承諾對全國的身心障礙者朋友承諾我們先來處理這個有肥胖的身心障礙者先來幫助他們先來協助他們可以吧"},{"start":11561.659,"end":11588.837,"text":"我認同這個在他的順位上應該更優先那我也必須表達對委員很感佩過去的這個修法上其實有很多的進步那只不過這個時過境遷還有很多我們需要努力的地方那特別是在個人助理的申請跟審查這個當然權限是在地方政府不過我們會來協調讓各個地方政府在審查"},{"start":11590.258,"end":11618.851,"text":"許可的時候能夠更自信也能夠兼顧到這個身障朋友們他們的需要謝謝部長答覆最後部長最熟悉的範圍我就讓你看身心在台北市的身心案子就醫過程遭遇到的這個困難的情形的比例就醫沒困難的45.6就醫有困難的是54.6其他就醫困難的原因就請部長詳閱我就不再贅述好 這是在台北市"},{"start":11619.631,"end":11648.318,"text":"那其他縣市怎麼辦好謝謝部長謝謝大家謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好接下來我們請黃修安委員來做審打謝謝主席我們請部長來有請部長花園好"},{"start":11648.632,"end":11672.632,"text":"部長好 部長我今天想要請教就是有關我們復康巴士在現在進入這個超高齡社會那其實使用這個復康巴士的人其實也是越來越多那我先就以彰化這邊來講彰化現在目前有80輛的復康巴士那大型的巴士有兩輛其他都是78輛是中小型的那種復康巴士"},{"start":11673.553,"end":11692.513,"text":"那我想講的就是說其實我們看到這樣的一個數據從2022年的一個這個小的復旱巴士總共是服務13萬多人次那2023年是16萬多人次一直到2024年已經增加到18萬多人次"},{"start":11693.194,"end":11707.931,"text":"所以然後再加上大的富康巴士每年服務大約也25萬人次可是我們知道說一般的民眾他如果有需要用到富康巴士然後用電話預約其實都很難預約到是叫不到的"},{"start":11708.872,"end":11724.013,"text":"我想請教就是說部長我們知道就是這個復康巴士可能就是地方在運作我想請教就是說像這樣子的話中央是不是有什麼樣的地方可以協助地方"},{"start":11726.7,"end":11750.789,"text":"當然我們在這一次的修法的版本裡面也特別去強化這個有關於交通協助的部分在地方政府上應該去強化當然過去我們有一些中央的補助款不過也受到新的財化法的影響這個中央能夠支配的預算其實是減少了"},{"start":11751.209,"end":11765.892,"text":"那地方是增加的所以我們會來督促這個地方應該要多挹注在這種多元的交通協助不只是富康巴士他有那個多元計程車那種那個也可以來協助"},{"start":11766.673,"end":11792.018,"text":"那我今天是就富康巴士就是說民眾一直在反映這個富康巴士預約不到叫不到那其實在彰化縣政府他這邊自己也有做一個統計就是說這個2022年叫不到車的人次有2000多人那到2023年有3800多人那2024年就增加到5600多人次就是叫不到這個富康巴士"},{"start":11792.938,"end":11811.036,"text":"那这个比例就是说2024年比2022年这样子看起来就是说叫不到车的已经增加一倍以上了所以我想请教就是说其实这个富康巴士在一般的身心障碍者或者是长者其实他们有这样的一个需求"},{"start":11811.696,"end":11832.456,"text":"那另外就是說第二個就是富康巴士我們看到這個富康巴士其實即使是有車可是可能沒有人可以開車其實在地方有很多企業企業主他們也願意捐這個富康巴士願意願意捐可是車有了可是沒有人"},{"start":11833.337,"end":11861.163,"text":"那我们看到就是说在一般的这个我们富康巴士很多就是为外去经营嘛那为外去经营有一个状况就是说我们富康巴士的这个司机我们在人力银行看到的平均的薪资其实也都还蛮低的有的2万多块有的3万多块那这个富康巴士的司机他要肩负的可能他开着这个中小的这个富康巴士或者是大型的富康巴士"},{"start":11861.983,"end":11886.596,"text":"第一個他開在這個想要去載這個身心障礙的朋友或者是長者這個地方不一定有無障礙的空間那再來就是說這個復康巴士的司機他還要負責協助去幫這個身心障礙者或者是長者讓他能夠順利上到這個復康巴士來所以就是說我們希望"},{"start":11887.697,"end":11916.19,"text":"中央跟地方第一個協助這個復康巴士能夠更多啦再來就是說我覺得無障礙的這個空間無障礙的空間其實部長我希望就是說有時候你在地方多跑你可以發現就是說在社區當中也好或者是在這個馬路當中其實這個無障礙的這個空間或是無障礙的這個人行道其實是"},{"start":11917.371,"end":11920.424,"text":"其實是不足的啦或者是真的是重重的障礙"},{"start":11922.387,"end":11948.485,"text":"有一些朋友他如果用轮椅来代步其实他就是走在大马路上面我们有时候看到轮椅跟车子是针到的其实是针的还是蛮危险的所以我希望针对这一部分让富康巴士能够很顺利的来接送这些身心障碍的朋友或者是长者"},{"start":11949.125,"end":11970.82,"text":"那我希望就是說中央跟地方能夠一起合作第一個就是說無障礙的這個空間或無障礙的這個人行道應該也要再度的再去盤點那再來就是說我們這個富康巴士叫不到車的這個狀況其實是逐年在增加而且未來我們這個人口老化"},{"start":11971.941,"end":11978.587,"text":"人口老化真的是越來越嚴重所以我覺得這個問題不只是地方政府的問題我覺得中央這邊應該也要來協助"},{"start":11980.219,"end":12004.67,"text":"有 跟委員說明我們在這一次行政院修法的草案裡面會把人行道道路的改善讓身心障礙者能夠更行的方便有希望入法讓地方政府能夠分年分期去不斷的改善這是一個第二個是我們也在推動高年友善城市"},{"start":12005.33,"end":12022.383,"text":"那高齡友善城市裡面有一塊也跟行有關係所以這個我們會雙軌來並行推動是整個面對這超高齡社會整個城市的營造如何更友善那對高齡者對身心障礙者都是會有正面的效果"},{"start":12022.523,"end":12044.791,"text":"是 好 我當然就是說希望這部法例了之後真的對我們身心障礙的朋友是有很大的幫助啦那我剛剛有特別提到就是說這個福康巴士的這個時機其實真的非常辛苦他還需要去協助這些這個身心障礙的朋友要上車那這個薪資的問題其實我覺得應該也"},{"start":12046.372,"end":12062.174,"text":"我覺得中央應該也可以出一些力另外就是說我們看到現在富康巴士大部分都是委外去經營那委外經營這個業者委外經營的這個業者他要收到我們這個"},{"start":12064.377,"end":12088.814,"text":"這個款項其實都可能隔了四五個月就是這個業者他要自己再帶電所以我覺得這個狀況應該中央這邊也要去好好的關心就是說為什麼有的他就退出這樣的一個富康巴士的營運因為他收到你們的這個款項可能就是經過四五個月因為我們是用那個公益彩券公益彩券的這個補助"},{"start":12093.774,"end":12111.719,"text":"對我知道因為跟我們的了解就是說我們的補助款是一筆就撥下去那核銷的部分主要是在地方政府所以我覺得說你們補助錢給地方政府那你們應該也可以要求應該也可以要求就是說"},{"start":12112.739,"end":12126.695,"text":"他不要再經過四五個月這個行政程序應該可以更快一點要不然你讓這個業者去帶電然後很多人就覺得說這個市場我還要自己帶電錢然後也不是一個很"},{"start":12128.256,"end":12147.644,"text":"這個很容易的一個工作所以我覺得既然我們有這樣的一個補助那你也可以去要求地方政府我的行政程序是不是要縮短不要很冗長的這個行政程序然後這個層層關卡是不是部長可以做這樣的一個承諾我們來了解一下這個"},{"start":12148.945,"end":12164.158,"text":"地方政府他的作業情形那如果有必要我們來協助建立一個統一的一個資訊平台讓大家的核銷可以更快是好那我今天就是針對我們富康巴士的這個部分我們希望"},{"start":12165.748,"end":12185.709,"text":"部長 我跟你說就是說未來人口老化真的是越來越嚴重的狀況而且這個也是中央跟地方我們一直在照顧我們都希望說我們能夠照顧所有需要被照顧的人不論是長者或身心障礙的朋友當然就是說從刑方面"},{"start":12186.629,"end":12202.782,"text":"讓他可以很容易的移動我覺得這個也是我們的一個要照顧的其中一項這個只是其中一項而已而且我覺得這個也可以立竿見影就是說可以很容易去達到這樣的一個成果而且"},{"start":12204.022,"end":12226.171,"text":"讓這些朋友讓這些需要使用復康巴士的人不會不再會覺得說我卡電話預約結果我每打可能每一次打每次都預約不到的這種狀況可以改善我希望就是說中央跟地方一起合作讓這個復康巴士能夠更容易更容易使用而不是說"},{"start":12227.051,"end":12244.583,"text":"我每次打然後我就是這個每次都跟你講說不好意思這個富康巴士已經都被預約完了對好不好我們希望說從這個最簡單的方面去做一個改善好好不好謝謝好謝謝黃委員接下來請羅明財委員羅明財委員不在請羅廷維委員來做選擇"},{"start":12259.998,"end":12279.424,"text":"謝謝趙偉有請部長來請部長駱惠元好部長好首先先感謝趙偉今天排審非常的用心我想在這一次身心障礙者權益保障法是身障者的根本大法很多人都非常關心尤其現在有30個版本待審"},{"start":12280.444,"end":12307.003,"text":"沒有見到院版但剛剛呢部長也有在回應其他的委員的關心也有提到院版的部分的進度但是我想這幾天呢我們也接到了身心障礙者自立生活聯盟的林鈞傑秘書長他們不管是在這個行政院抗議甚至來到立法院陳情我想他們的這些訴求我們都看到了那這邊我也想問一下部長您個人可以表態一下您支持這一部法能夠成立嗎"},{"start":12307.797,"end":12331.076,"text":"支持因為我上個禮拜也跟這個君姐有見面他們也有更深入的去了解他們所遇到的障礙我們很支持修法所以才會跟他們討論之後就回去再修訂我們本來的版本所以很快的應該在這個月底或者是下個月初就會送到就會有願版"},{"start":12331.877,"end":12351.16,"text":"那我想對身障朋友來說除住宿型的一個照顧服務社區支持的服務我覺得更重要社區支持的服務更是讓他們能夠融入社區能夠維護自己的自主以及尊嚴的關鍵請問部長目前全國推動社區服務的整體狀況如何還有哪些需要加強的部分呢"},{"start":12352.39,"end":12374.112,"text":"就如同在我們的報告裡面提到的在這個自立生活服務的部分我們有這個同儕支持也有個人助理的服務那當然這個部分還有很多需要在擴充的地方雖然預算服務量能有在提升不過我相信還是有提升我們有看到逐步提升但是我覺得量能上還是"},{"start":12375.434,"end":12399.273,"text":"我想不管是個人助理日間照顧數位無障礙等一下我們一個一個討論這些都是我們應該有待加強的我想個人助理是自立生活的一項個人助理是促進身心障礙的自立生活的一個核心他以服務使用者為主他不像長照所以能做哪些服務都被框住個人助理更像是我們現在看到障礙者他的手腳眼睛嘴巴但是部長"},{"start":12400.514,"end":12424.37,"text":"請問自立生活我們就個人助理這個單項就這個單項不是全部喔過去三年的預算如何就是有增加到將近4億左右這是最近增加的啦過去三年是逐步要增加嘛所以才會有這樣的數字出來那115年的年度預算大概是多少"},{"start":12425.7,"end":12447.689,"text":"也是在4億多我們目前的編列我個人是覺得一定有成長的空間你剛剛也說他的量能其實是有被忽視到因為他實際需求有那再來114年9月份韓同才及個人助理總共服務人數為1772人你覺得他在城市還是在偏鄉比較多"},{"start":12450.66,"end":12473.893,"text":"他的覆蓋率你有查過嗎這個覆蓋率我簡單來講基本上一定是城市比較多啦但是然而實際的需求卻遠高於此許多的身心障礙者反應卻無法取得這樣的服務我想你更清楚因為這樣子的一個制度目前的僵化 程序的繁瑣還是因為資源不足"},{"start":12474.793,"end":12500.065,"text":"我想不是嘛因為你有意願願意去提高這相關的預算所以導致案件難以開案需求無法被滿足我想我們不要再把身障朋友的這些對於個人的助理的需求推給長照對於身障者我們現在這些朋友們我們他們的申請者就是相當申請相當不友善這就是一個事實我想什麼時候能夠讓個人助理"},{"start":12501.065,"end":12511.09,"text":"變成是需求者說了算以人為本我想部長我們有關於個人助理的預算太少115年這個部分您覺得是不是可以再提高一些"},{"start":12512.045,"end":12534.173,"text":"因為我們的預算書已經送到了立法院所以這個還是看立法院的審查結果我覺得預算來自於公益彩券的回饋金這個裁員不太穩定拿公益彩券的回饋金去補助地方公益彩券這個部分的補助也是有納入吧公益彩券的部分 裁員之一吧"},{"start":12535.113,"end":12546.767,"text":"應該很少吧全部都是公務預算嗎對是以這個編列在長照基金裡面的公務預算以公益彩券這個回饋金這部分這個資料我們再來查一下會後我們再來討論可以嗎"},{"start":12549.329,"end":12577.14,"text":"好可以嗎好那因為你現在說公務預算有4億多那因為我所查到的資料我們會後再來做一個相互交叉比對一下因為我有看到有這個部分的公益補助回饋金來補助地方那沒有關係在者日間照顧也被多重我們看到許多的身心障礙者抱怨根本用不到比如裝鼻胃管的幾乎用不到願意收案的日照機構部長如何補足這個缺口"},{"start":12578.484,"end":12578.766,"text":"日照機構"},{"start":12581.658,"end":12607.924,"text":"應該這個是屬於我們長照服務日間照顧 長照據點日間照顧對 我剛剛有說日間照顧對我們現在也看到有這樣子的一個問題那您覺得這個部分該怎麼去補足這個需求是不足的部分嗎我們來了解一下看看是分佈的問題因為總數上一直在增加我們現在的長照據點已經超過15000點了那可能是對身障者的需求還有他的那個分佈"},{"start":12609.244,"end":12635.779,"text":"均衡的問題我們來進一步了解分析一下好後續如果相關的數據可不可以讓我們知道一下好不好那部長我請速發部同仁一起好嗎謝謝部長就你了解目前多少網站及APP有去做無障礙的檢測並取得認證的一個標章這雖然是速發部的業務但是我希望部長您身為身障朋友大家長也應該略知一二您認為這些網站有多少去做這個無障礙的檢測"},{"start":12638.869,"end":12655.981,"text":"確實的數字我真的是沒有掌握不過我們希望從這個公務部門來率先做起所以在我們的這個修法版本裡面會希望把它列入除了網站還有所提供的APP之外都能夠"},{"start":12657.102,"end":12666.113,"text":"我先講一個數據讓您稍微知道一下就速發部裡面有個無障礙網路空間的服務網裡面就有這樣子的一個軟體無障礙檢測113年起到今我們APP送檢累積的件數83件"},{"start":12672.722,"end":12696.754,"text":"通過只有28件換言之有55件是沒有通過的一級這些的APP均不利於身心障礙者比如說像視障來使用如何具體改善這些狀況提升APP的無障礙環境我想這個部分應該衛福部跟速發部應該共同來努力那其他的面向比如金融"},{"start":12697.839,"end":12721.834,"text":"消費 通訊 學習 娛樂等各領域的無障礙APP又要怎麼做政府做不到又怎麼可能希望民間政府能夠來幫忙協助介入我想民間也需要政府的介入啊他們才可以有辦法ATM啊 有潑到的很少有較低位置的ATM也很少"},{"start":12722.796,"end":12746.69,"text":"但是對視障者而言電子書可以選擇的也很少所以部長就身心障礙者只是對於活著他只需要活著而不是有尊嚴的活在社區裡他們現在這樣的需求都沒有被重視我們該怎麼樣去協助處理這個剛剛這個委員也在垂詢到在行政部門的部分"},{"start":12747.971,"end":12770.173,"text":"已經有通過這個無障礙檢測的大概是一半50%那我們會再持續努力去提升希望更高讓包含這個政府機關之外那麼公營事業也能夠投入放在這個不論是網站或者是APP能夠符合無障礙者的"},{"start":12771.094,"end":12798.086,"text":"我想還是要希望我們能夠有機會去體驗一下因為視障朋友在領取這個ATM的時候他們在整個介面上整個按鈕上我想這個能夠再更加的給予他們更多的協助這個很重要我們都沒有這個需求但是他們真的很需要像我們這個健保的這個APP我們就通過這個無障礙測試就是因為知道這個就醫的需要是存在的"},{"start":12798.186,"end":12824.742,"text":"所以我希望說有這樣子的經驗的你們衛福部能夠協助速發部去建置更完善的一些檢驗來督促各部會這些ATM 銀行業界這些能夠協助處理這個衛福部應該要幫助我們身心障礙者好 謝謝我們來協助好 謝謝接下來請吳立華委員來做選擇"},{"start":12834.759,"end":12834.981,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":12841.799,"end":12865.21,"text":"部長好 我聽說在12月3號就是國際身心障礙者日那一天這些那個帳權團體有拜會您所以很高興我們今天看到召委就是終於有這樣的一個詢答跟排審我相信他們一定都很高興那事實上他們在5月份的時候"},{"start":12866.03,"end":12891.288,"text":"也有來我的辦公室就是來跟我去討論一些他們希望的一個修法方向所以我在七月份的時候呢也根據他們的意見提出了一個修法版本那我個人呢比較重視的大概是三個方向也是他們特別重視的那第一個部分就是他們很希望可以把這個個人助理的一個權益能夠入法"},{"start":12892.248,"end":12920.613,"text":"另外他們的參政權也希望能夠得到保障再來就是有很多是屬於交織身份者他們是弱中之弱所以這個部分也很希望衛福部這個地方能夠注意當然這個當中我們聽了很多很多的案例包括像我們現在整個社會有很多不友善的制度設計跟環境設施我們不是身心障礙者可能很難察覺"},{"start":12922.113,"end":12945.532,"text":"但是因为他们是当事人所以他们可以处处感受得到许多制度上或者是环境上的一个不便像这个是我有接到的陈情他们说他们因为坐轮椅所以连餐厅定位的时候遇到某些餐厅会应用他们占用的位置比较大所以要加收费用"},{"start":12946.432,"end":12972.278,"text":"所以這個是我們當然覺得很難理解那再來就是他們要訂房的時候無障礙的房型明明也是雙人床可是呢他就必須要比一般的雙人床還要多加費用那又或者是說像那個大巨蛋他們又跟我們去陳情說他的輪椅席啊放在最後面那看不到看不清楚也就罷了"},{"start":12973.098,"end":12995.047,"text":"那人家站起來歡呼的時候是完全看不到所以我們可以發現到說如果他們有機會能夠參與這一些問題就可以被他們提出來討論但是我們目前的法令我們可以看到因為20多年來沒有大修就是過去的第10條"},{"start":12996.368,"end":13009.609,"text":"他雖然有提到身心障礙者的代表但是他只有考量到單一性別不得少於三分之一因此有可能就是他根本不需要聘身心障礙者"},{"start":13011.058,"end":13036.992,"text":"這個會就可以成立了所以特別就是希望來修法就是在這個當中寫其中身心障礙者人數不得少於二分之一部長您支不支持這樣的修法方向我們支持這個方向所以我們的版本會朝向身心障礙者代表及身心障礙者那麼不得少於二分之一OK 謝謝再來就是關於受歧視的問題"},{"start":13038.793,"end":13045.801,"text":"當然原住民我們受歧視其實我們真的可以感同身受但是身心障礙者對他們來講"},{"start":13047.492,"end":13073.051,"text":"可以說更是備受煎熬所以這個部分我們也很希望因為反歧視法目前一直都沒有辦法完成所以聯合國的人權的一個調查我們其實在這個部分是很不及格的但是至少我們在目前的這樣的一步伐裡面我們很希望能夠去新增對歧視的一個禁止"},{"start":13073.812,"end":13095.523,"text":"那也擴大他的對象對家人的歧視對照顧者的歧視也希望把他放進去而且呢希望能夠去提供申訴的管道那對於媒體呢也希望能夠去做一個制止那也希望呢能夠有罰則那我不太曉得說部長您對於這樣的修法方向有沒有什麼樣的意見"},{"start":13096.536,"end":13123.73,"text":"對於這種反歧視那麼甚至騷擾這些事情我們是支持讓他在法律裡面更明確那麼更具有強制性的規範那麼但是在這個申訴的管道跟我們現行的這個相關的行政救濟的程序上的競合關係我們可能也要稍微不要讓他"},{"start":13125.591,"end":13137.341,"text":"這個重複了或者是中間有漢格的現象那他的罰則呢罰則我們目前是應該已經有相對應的處理的方式"},{"start":13138.571,"end":13166.74,"text":"想了解一下所以部里面的一个态度是什么我们支持这个方向支持这样的方向但是强度没有那么强是这样吗强度上或者是执行面上怎么来执行的部分我们再提出来跟委员就较好谢谢那另外就是我自己也很关心的就是交织身份的部分因为我这样子说好了就是有所谓的弱中之弱"},{"start":13167.95,"end":13171.443,"text":"假設一群身心障礙者去找工作"},{"start":13172.557,"end":13200.088,"text":"那有些人呢他可能有原住民的身份也就是說他是原住民級的一個身心障礙者他們要一起去找工作的話其實對原住民來講他的機會是更少的又或者說一群原住民要去找工作但是其中有一位是身心障礙者那這個具原住民身份的身心障礙者他可能是這一群人當中機會最弱最少的那一位"},{"start":13200.948,"end":13219.791,"text":"所以我們其實長期以來我們發現有很多的身心障礙者他其實是有多重的身份可是我們的權益保障有時候會要求他們擇一又或者說他們的交織身份其實在資源的獲得我們原本期待應該要給他們更多"},{"start":13220.672,"end":13249.833,"text":"但是我们的整个制度设计没有去想到所以这个部分我也希望说部里面称这次的修法不晓得部长您对这个有没有什么样的想法方向因为如果以刚刚委员举例来讲因为他是身心障碍者那么就被这个不容易取得那这个就是有歧视的概念在里面所以他可能就违反到我们所定的那么禁止歧视"},{"start":13250.313,"end":13279.292,"text":"在就業的時候的禁止歧視所以那個應該以現行的法規上應該是可以處理至於多重福利身份上資源如何整合這個也是我們很同意的方向在朝這個方向所以你們現在目前朝這個方向我是希望至少你們現在有一個像113到117這個中長城計畫有一個資源部件計畫總預算是480億啦那他們其實會覺得說很多的資源"},{"start":13280.293,"end":13304.065,"text":"如果到了地方政府有時候沒有辦法達成中央的美意為得不足所以我們很希望說在這個部分針對這些福利身份的盤點資源的整合怎麼樣真正的能夠幫助到這一些交資身份者我覺得這個也是我們現在應該要去更關注的一個點部長"},{"start":13306.466,"end":13324.336,"text":"會支持最後再給我半分鐘就是大家很關心的個人助理那應該這個很多人都有討論就是目前為什麼很少人願意投入就條件不好就是對他們來講這個收入也不是很穩而且職業風險高"},{"start":13326.098,"end":13342.561,"text":"所以就会变成很少人愿意投入这个个人助理所以我们也很希望说借着这一次的修法能够把个人助理服务的入法还有新增他费用的补助保障那部长不晓得这个部分我们部里面有没有做什么样的规划"},{"start":13343.562,"end":13367.799,"text":"我們的想法是這樣因為這個是我們所有的這個身心障礙者個人照顧服務辦法裡面很多項中間的一項而已所以我們是比較期待是在這個辦法裡面來修訂那麼錄到這個生權法會造成以後的彈性可能就會降低"},{"start":13368.739,"end":13387.374,"text":"那至於說不足的地方我們來檢討那麼在辦法裡面來修訂好 那就是希望在辦法裡面去保障也是入法我們也是希望說入法之後在辦法裡面能夠做更好的修訂那是最好的好 謝謝部長也謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝吳委員 吳部長"},{"start":13393.228,"end":13415.858,"text":"接下來請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員不在林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員不在請陳委員來做選擇麻煩請石部長來 部長陳委員好"},{"start":13416.767,"end":13442.306,"text":"部長好那近幾年呢這個早期療癒的服務是逐漸完善其實台灣也算做得不錯那但是呢本席也看到一個越來越明顯的問題那現在有這個各縣市的這個早療服務大部分都是在六歲前政府大量投入這個人力跟資源但是進入國小之後那邁入這個青少年"},{"start":13444.688,"end":13461.508,"text":"這個青年甚至成年之後呢我想了解一下就是衛福部到底做了什麼有哪些支持的這個系統跟持續的訓練然後來協助這些原先有需要幫助的這些孩子們來"},{"start":13463.65,"end":13487.552,"text":"是跟委員說明大概我們一方面去發展這個早期療癒的資源整合中心因為先有這個評估然後這個是由我們國健署主導的這個評估聯合評估中心然後再去按照他的需要去安排後續的早期療癒的相關服務"},{"start":13488.092,"end":13501.027,"text":"那當然我們現在確實學齡前的是比較多那學齡後的話主要就是在醫院服務醫療機構服務這邊為主 自行它就會回到健保的體系主要在健保體系裡面去執行"},{"start":13503.001,"end":13518.827,"text":"其實部長這樣回答可能在實務上我們沒有辦法對照得到一些比較具體的答案因為確實我們了解多數的資源就是說在六歲之後"},{"start":13519.767,"end":13537.746,"text":"看起來都比較集中是在這個中重度障礙或者是設服認定的高需求的個案但事實上呢有很多完成早療之後的特別是高功能的兒童他們的語言跟認知能力"},{"start":13538.827,"end":13554.457,"text":"因為是知見權嘛但是就是說甚至語言認知能力看起來是正常的但是實際上最需要支持的例如說交友社交的互動然後執行的功能還有情緒的調節還有校園跟社會適應"},{"start":13561.662,"end":13581.258,"text":"我舉例啦就是說比如說孩子們長大了邁入這個青春期他們也開始會對異性會產生興趣那甚至比如說上大學之後也會很想交女朋友但是或者交男朋友但是呢"},{"start":13582.979,"end":13602.33,"text":"缺乏對就是說他們不知道怎麼樣用大眾可以接受的方式去互動所以常常會被投訴甚至有的被送去警察局告他們性騷所以這些其實到最後都產生了一些社會的問題"},{"start":13605.783,"end":13621.533,"text":"這些跨部門的這個銜接幾乎都是由家長們自行在摸索那也因為他們就是說剛剛講的缺乏一般人的這個認知跟辨識能力有時候甚至連對方的喜怒哀樂"},{"start":13622.634,"end":13644.96,"text":"都沒有辦法很正確的分辨所以更容易造成像最近詐騙集團這個詐騙集團的這個盛行他們也很容易就是說成為被詐騙的目標那當然這些都有實際的案例所以我今天特別也正是這個問題在這邊提出"},{"start":13646.88,"end":13662.868,"text":"所以針對這個部分本席在去年也有提出一個主決議要求衛福部針對不同階段高功能者所需要的這個療癒繳制課程需求的進度調查那盤點現有的資源並且有要求你們在六個月內要提出經濟改善計畫和推動的這個時程規劃"},{"start":13665.729,"end":13693.238,"text":"那當時新建司社家署國建署還有健保署都推來推去的跟本席之前推的一些方案都是一樣推來推去最後呢是由新建司來主責我想這也是凸顯了就是說這些高功能的障礙者呢在找療之後的支援其實是被忽略的那因為"},{"start":13694.518,"end":13719.142,"text":"衛福部裡面你們沒有任何一個單位就認為這是自己應該做的業務那我想要請教部長現在已經過了一年了那衛福部是否有掌握早療後持續需要服務的這些孩子們的人數跟需求還有資源盤點的到底是怎麼樣的可不可以請你們回答"},{"start":13722.751,"end":13742.945,"text":"確實像委員提到對於這個早期療癒的部分因為他過去都是比較著重在學齡前確實是這樣因為要早期介入那麼希望他能夠盡量回歸到這個他的後面的這個學習成長能夠跟正常的孩子相當所以都是放在在前面"},{"start":13743.846,"end":13766.766,"text":"那麼又善在不同的部門所以第一個我們在現在的這個行政院版本要成立的兒少及家庭支持署裡面就會把這個兒少的早期療癒整合在這個單位所以以後事權讓他合一所以這個是第一個第二個剛剛提到你說未來會合一"},{"start":13767.509,"end":13792.875,"text":"就是说这个早期疗愈现在的相关业务有些可能会上载在社家属或者是这个新建师或者是国建属那以后这个儿少的早期疗愈那部长你可不可以再讲一下儿少还是儿少啊儿少及家庭支持属这样对但是这些人即便他再继续成长"},{"start":13793.925,"end":13816.334,"text":"已經過了兒少的這個年齡在邁入成年之後一樣他們都還是會需要協助的因為在其實這一群高功能的障礙者你好好的訓練他們 輔佐他們他們是可以成為這社會上有貢獻的人"},{"start":13818.476,"end":13828.716,"text":"但是如果你們就這樣放生了放生家長 放生這群孩子們那後續就會產生很多社會的問題"},{"start":13832.003,"end":13853.955,"text":"我了解就是说我们刚刚提到儿少当然我们是到18岁那委员关心的是说那成年之后18岁以后那他同样会有这种社交或者是这个生活上他的需要的协助那我们看看即便上大学在学习上他们也都很需要帮忙"},{"start":13855.7,"end":13883.156,"text":"所以這個部分不是說只有說接下來教育部接手然後或者是哪個單位接手因為在你們各個單位不管是怎麼接手並沒有連結我要提一個我觀察了一個很奇特的現象在台大的兒童心智科進去我們看到的不是只有兒童其實有更多的青少年"},{"start":13884.076,"end":13899.571,"text":"甚至已經是成年的大孩子們都還是要去掛兒童心智科那我不知道你們有沒有注意到這個奇特的現象因為他們沒有地方去啊不曉得要掛什麼"},{"start":13902.406,"end":13926.124,"text":"如果是已经是成人的那他就是挂成人精神科比较不会去儿童精神科我们在医院里面是有分科的除非他是因为对这个医师啊长期的性认关系异病关系所以他确实有很多的不然的话是走的是那个成人精神科就不是儿童心不是儿心的"},{"start":13926.874,"end":13944.398,"text":"但我這樣凸顯並不是說實際上的這樣子的一些問診治療是不對的不是這樣而是說實際上的需求跟我們整個制度上的規劃其實是產生了很大的問題那這個部分"},{"start":13947.839,"end":13971.181,"text":"你們剛剛也都還沒有回答剛剛有人上來協助來支援部長但是你給部長什麼答案過了12個月你們有沒有掌握這個早療後持續需求就是到底持續需求服務的這些孩子們的人數你們有沒有盤出來了跟你們一年的時間你們算出來了沒有"},{"start":13972.662,"end":14000.757,"text":"我聽到的我了解的是說還沒有盤點完這個需求啦這個需求調查好像還沒有完成那部長這個一年的時間是您認為太少還是足夠還是業務單位他們不夠積極你們會部長認為說大概這個需要多少時間還是根本盤不出來可以"},{"start":14004.617,"end":14015.813,"text":"我們還是要找專家學者來委託他們來執行這個計畫那這個計畫我們盡可能在未來六個月看能不能把它完成這樣"},{"start":14017.093,"end":14033.063,"text":"好的孩子們都每天每天都在長大所以我還是希望大家可以跟時間賽跑一下那部長就是說當家長的必須在這個教育醫療還有社政三個系統當中來回奔走"},{"start":14033.903,"end":14058.94,"text":"每個單位都說這不是我們的業務那衛福部你們是不是就到底有沒有認知到說這樣的制度設計導致說家長長期承擔高壓的照顧跟溝通的成本交通也是因為剛剛講說如果長期從小長期我們就是都是固定由一位特定的醫師組織醫師來"},{"start":14064.384,"end":14088.806,"text":"診療的話那有些有些因為搬遷那或者有些像在東部地區或者偏鄉就比較少這樣子的早期就比較少這樣的資源的時候那一開始就是固定在北部這種交通往返的成本都是很高的耶所以你們是不是就是說"},{"start":14090.277,"end":14105.295,"text":"剛剛六個月的盤點我是真的覺得太久了除非部長你要不要讓他們講一下他們到底有遇到什麼困難我請那個我們興建師的陳市長說為什麼還需要半年所以前後加起來是一年半搞不好還做不出來"},{"start":14107.19,"end":14131.387,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子目前已經有委託給國衛院那國衛院跟那個我們有請台大院兒童心智就是兒童心神科醫師來做這個調查的確是這個他們在青少年之後的需求包括社區的需求還有長期的這個照顧的需求你們什麼時候委託出去這個月這個月我過我提案過了一年你們這個月才委託出去你這樣會不會太不像話了我們會盡速來做這很誇張欸你們啊"},{"start":14137.952,"end":14164.454,"text":"所以半年時間這樣有夠嗎 部長我是不怪你啦你剛上任 那個興建師師長你也是剛來嘛所以前面那些都在幹什麼每個案子推來推去都有他們的份耶這一定是不良紀錄在我心裡我會督促那個儘早把這個需求調查看能不能盡快的完成這樣"},{"start":14165.865,"end":14195.112,"text":"因為我要講一下就是說其實因為我真的遇到很多案例我們服務處也接到過陳情就是這些高功能的孩子們長大之後真的就好幾個就我們常常要去派出所去把這些人安撫帶回來因為大家不了解你們又推來推去的所以這個部分拜託等於從零開始嘛就半年 半年"},{"start":14198.449,"end":14216.814,"text":"不好意思我就再多問一個問題就結束我們看一下上個月的內政部公佈的原住民族檢疫生意表題要分析依照111年的統計原住民族與全體國民的平均餘命差距為6.19歲113年已經擴大到7.54歲"},{"start":14220.715,"end":14239.694,"text":"所以原住民族與全體國民平均一命的差距在這幾年已經不再呈現縮小的差距部長你怎麼看這個圖表本來好好的103到111都下降然後這兩年又上升我們的所有的統計數字在這幾年因為疫情的影響都產生了"},{"start":14244.659,"end":14268.062,"text":"偏離趨勢的情形在Covid這三年當中我們各項數字都一樣包含其他的死因統計也都受到影響像十大死因在過去這幾年Covid就跑進來了變成十大死因當中的一項過去是沒有的所以各項的統計數字在這一段期間內都受到影響"},{"start":14269.384,"end":14293.785,"text":"所以我們現在看到的113年的數字確實是這樣我們必須要認識這個數字但是未來的趨勢是怎樣呢我們會去細部去分析到底這個死因有沒有什麼變化就是死亡人數上去回溯看看他的死因上有沒有什麼不同我們再來看看需不需要有一些介入的措施"},{"start":14294.185,"end":14309.842,"text":"我想這樣子的趨勢不是我們樂見的情形不管是什麼樣的原因我們都要再想辦法趕快再恢復到讓它是一個下降的趨勢那在2023年通過原住民族健康法之後衛福部就是說到底做了哪些"},{"start":14310.643,"end":14329.81,"text":"努力 因為看起來這兩年多好像都是在開會而已比較沒有具體的這個健康政策來確定在推動而且國衛院目前為止還是只有在這個健康資料庫的建置而已所以這部分部長不曉得有沒有什麼回應"},{"start":14330.65,"end":14358.442,"text":"已經有一些具體要進行的方向那麼包含那個國衛院的主題也已經把它設定出來未來的原住民族研究的重點議題也把它爐列出來了那另外呢相關的計畫也陸續會去徵求而且呢都會要求主持人或者是協同主持人也必須具有這個原住民族的"},{"start":14359.162,"end":14374.629,"text":"身份那其次也有這個責定一些醫院我們的醫院來辦理這個原住民族的友善醫院做一個示範那麼大概有這些陸陸續續在推動的"},{"start":14378.331,"end":14393.985,"text":"好 謝謝因為這個原住民族健康法其實石部長當年其實真的是這部法案的一個很重要的一個推手啦我是追隨委員推動這個立法"},{"start":14395.346,"end":14415.7,"text":"你也追得很好啦那這個部分就是說我們好我們再繼續努力這樣子那對但重要的是這個台東成功跟長濱的這個智慧手環的這個事辦計畫兩年已經今天剩下幾天就到齊了那"},{"start":14416.72,"end":14435.615,"text":"因為我請衛福部研議就是說能不能再延長這個部分請教你們研議的結果會 會再延長一年來收集這個更多的資料來做評估好那這是個好消息因為我前天到"},{"start":14436.616,"end":14450.392,"text":"到成功去跟那些老人家講說你們的手錶只會動到今年的12月31號的凌晨就還會再繼續好那因為那個就是說針對獨居老人的問題"},{"start":14451.673,"end":14474.747,"text":"台東的獨居老人他其實在比例是全國最高已經是百分之二十幾了所以這關懷及服務獨居老人的措施在我們台東是很重要的一環就是說目前縣府他們有的獨居老人智能守護緊急救護的服務"},{"start":14476.508,"end":14492.241,"text":"就是說他們是這個部分就是說獨居長者佩戴急救呼叫跟定位的手環其實只限於經濟弱勢跟行動不便的長者但本席認為因為台東的整個它是地形是很狹長"},{"start":14493.622,"end":14517.249,"text":"有緊急狀況的時候就是說你如果發現太慢他往北送往南送或往中古縣那邊送其實都會花很多時間都會耽誤到那再來我們的這個醫護比比例也是比其他的縣市比這個都會區要少很多低很多所以這個部分我們是不是就可以"},{"start":14518.549,"end":14533.201,"text":"在之前我有特別呼籲要求說希望針對這個照顧獨居老人的部分中央可以提出相關的政策那這個部分請問衛福部你們規劃怎麼樣那是不是還可以擴大"},{"start":14533.941,"end":14551.62,"text":"跟委員報告說我們特別在行政院有這個撥了這個特別條例那個任性特別條例的特別預算有有我們衛福部有爭取到62億專門要放在這個獨居老人那這裡面"},{"start":14552.441,"end":14573.216,"text":"的這個項目工作項目裡面就包含緊急救援裝置所以不再會限制在中低收入戶或行動不便者而是有需求的長者特別是獨居的所以這個對象上已經有放寬有放寬擴大所以獨居老老也算嗎老老算 兩個都是老的算"},{"start":14575.638,"end":14587.252,"text":"那第二個我們會去成立一個專案辦公室的輔導團隊因為怕這個各縣市在執行上有它的不一致性或者是不夠專業的協助那我們會有一個計畫來做輔導"},{"start":14594.162,"end":14613.172,"text":"專家的這個團隊那會從這個特別會去關懷這個在花東或者是醫療資源比較欠缺的基金會列為我們優先輔導的這個對焦緯的縣市也是相當有幫助的他今天有在場也可以算他一份有有一定算一定算所以"},{"start":14617.156,"end":14641.407,"text":"就是但因為回到剛剛那個原住民那個平均餘命的那個差距我們目前還是沒有跟上所以在這個原住民獨居老人的適用年齡的部分目前是65嘛就是說我們新的那個方案那這個部分是不是你們可以再研議再把它下降在我們平均餘命這個還沒有縮短到"},{"start":14642.347,"end":14655.231,"text":"一個很很接近了一個標準之前我們是不是還可以延續這個55歲的部分我們可以來演繹可以來演繹在原住民的部分看看是不是有比較寬鬆的你們是不是一個月的時間演繹再回報好謝謝謝謝謝謝韋爺謝謝趙偉"},{"start":14667.935,"end":14696.922,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來本日會議詢答全部結束委員陳清輝 楊耀 楊瓊英 煥雲林楚英 徐欣妍所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那現在做一下決定及決議第一報告說明及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關以兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期所定那現在休息"},{"start":14698.035,"end":14710.72,"text":"我們1點30分繼續審查身心障礙者權力保障法部分條文修正草案等27案那歸法案相關列寫人員請先離席好 謝謝 先休息"},{"start":14918.814,"end":14921.659,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":16918.985,"end":16929.501,"text":"我再來追隨趙委員你再追隨那個單路人你再追隨趙委員沒有啦,我再追隨趙委員沒有啦,沒有啦因為這件事都白了,公開都知道"},{"start":16934.554,"end":16953.539,"text":"好我們現在進行討論事項請宣讀提案條文內容那若有修正動議請一併宣讀那委會在這邊再做一個報告因為剛剛有有在追尋的時候特別跟跟各位說明因為總共併案對條次總共是177條所以宣讀的時間怎樣"},{"start":16961.319,"end":16970.23,"text":"170條次所以宣讀時間應該將近兩個多鐘多 差不多嘛在這邊做這個宣告 跟各位提醒一下 謝謝好 請宣讀"},{"start":16972.119,"end":16997.879,"text":"委員范雲等17人 委員郭育晴等19人委員何新存等17人 委員陳冠廷等16人委員陳冠廷等20人 委員徐富奎等18人委員羅廷威等16人 委員黃潔等17人委員王洪威等20人 委員徐柯之仁等18人委員柯之仁等17人 委員馬文君等19人委員廖偉祥等21人 委員廖偉祥等19人委員林楚英等20人 委員陳金輝等16人委員洪孟凱等18人 委員羅美玲等16人"},{"start":16998.92,"end":17020.863,"text":"委員陳俊宇等18人委員林楚英等17人委員劉建國等17人11010313號委員邱若驊等17人委員劉建國等17人委員林月琴等18人委員吳麗華等18人委員王玉敏等17人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案現行法條文對照表"},{"start":17021.804,"end":17037.781,"text":"委員羅廷輝等16人委員廖偉祥等19人提案第一條為維護身心障礙者之權益禁止一切形式之歧視保障其平等參與公民政治經濟社會文化等之機會促進其自立及發展特制定本法委員何新泉等17人提案第二條"},{"start":17038.462,"end":17057.883,"text":"修正第三項第一款文字主管機關為社會福利主管機關獨立為自立修正第六款及第九款如下六交通主管機關身心障礙者生活通信大眾運輸工具無障礙交通設施與運輸服務公共停車場等相關權益之規劃推動及監督等事項"},{"start":17058.684,"end":17076.198,"text":"九 法務主管機關身心障礙者犯罪被害人保護受刑人收容環境改善與更生保護等相關權益之規劃推動及監督等事項第十四至第十六款刪除冒號後面主管二字現行第十七款疑為第四項修正如下"},{"start":17076.798,"end":17101.334,"text":"前項以外其他身心障礙權益保障事項由各相關目的事業主管機關依職權規劃辦理予以現行法同委員陳冠廷等二十人提案第二條第三項第六款與委員何欣淳等十七人提案同予以現行法同委員羅定位等十六人提案第二條修正第三項第一款文字獨立為自立第二款文字保健醫療為身心健康第六款如下"},{"start":17102.054,"end":17129.98,"text":"六交通主管機關身心障礙者生活通信無障礙電動大眾運輸工具交通設施與運輸服務公共停車場等相關權益之規劃推動及監督等事項增訂第十款如下十司法主管機關身心障礙者權益救濟司法保護等相關權益之規劃推動及監督等事項現行第十款至第十七款第一為第十一款至第十八款予以現行法同"},{"start":17132.253,"end":17160.764,"text":"委員廖偉祥等19人提案第二條第三項126款與委員羅廷威等16人提案同予以現行法同委員陳金輝等16人提案第二條第三項第一款予以現行法同予以委員何欣淳等17人提案同委員羅美玲等16人提案第二條修正第三項第一款文字主管機關為社會福利機關予以委員陳金輝等16人提案同委員劉建國等17人提案"},{"start":17163.105,"end":17189.005,"text":"1101218號第二條第十四至第十六款如下十四通訊傳播主管機關身心障礙者無障礙資訊通訊技術與系統及網路平台與通訊傳播傳輸內容無歧視等相關事宜之規劃推動及監督等事項十五科技研究事務主管機關身心障礙者輔助科技研發技術研究移轉應用及推動等事項"},{"start":17189.725,"end":17204.958,"text":"十六經濟主管機關身心障礙輔具國家標準訂定產業推動商業化開發之規劃推動及監督等事項現行第十七款已為第四項內容與委員何欣淳等十七人提案同予以現行法同"},{"start":17206.431,"end":17222.128,"text":"委員林月琴等18人提案第二條第三項1245891012款如下一社會福利主管機關身心障礙者人格維護及權益保障經濟安全照顧支持與獨立生活機會等相關權益之規劃推動及監督"},{"start":17225.652,"end":17254.346,"text":"及監督等事項二衛生主管機關身心障礙者之鑑定保健醫療醫療復健與醫療之生活輔具研發等相關權益之規劃推動及監督等事項四勞工主管機關身心障礙者之職業重建就業促進與保障勞動權益與職場安全衛生禁止職業歧視等相關權益之規劃推動及監督等事項五建設公務住宅主管機關"},{"start":17255.186,"end":17267.434,"text":"身心障礙者住宅公共建築物公共設施及其所屬空間場域之總體規劃與無障礙生活環境等相關權益之規劃推動及監督等事項"},{"start":17269.315,"end":17291.575,"text":"八 金融主管機關金融機構對身心障礙者提供金融商業保險財產信託金融服務系統無障礙設施及優化等服務之規劃推動及監督等事項九 法務主管機關身心障礙者犯罪被害人保護受刑人更生保護收容環境改善輔具提供與司法偵查期間輔助"},{"start":17293.096,"end":17317.583,"text":"資源禁用等相關權益之規劃推動及督導及監督等事項十 警政主管機關身心障礙者人身安全保護失蹤身心障礙者協尋及司法偵查程序進行中輔助資源禁用之規劃推動及監督等事項十二 文化主管機關身心障礙者精神生活之充實藝文活動參與之規劃推動及監督等事項"},{"start":17318.704,"end":17338.324,"text":"與委員何新淳等十七人提案同委員吳麗華等十八人提案第二條第三項第十及第十二款如下十警政主管機關身心障礙者人身安全保護失蹤身心障礙者協尋與對身心障礙者警訊與具體等司法禁用之規劃推動及監督等事項"},{"start":17339.065,"end":17354.737,"text":"十二文化主管機關身心障礙者參與藝文活動之資源及空間之可敬信身心障礙者之語言與文化認同保障之規劃推動及監督等事項第十四至第十六款同線刑法第四項守據為"},{"start":17356.218,"end":17372.492,"text":"前項以外其他身心障礙權益保障措施事項予以委員陳金輝等16人提案同委員王玉明等17人提案第二條第三項第二及第九款予以委員羅廷輝等16人提案同予以委員陳金輝等16人提案同"},{"start":17373.072,"end":17397.606,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條第三項第九十及第十二款如下九司法及法務主管機關保障身心障礙者接受調查與羈押的司法禁用以及身心障礙者犯罪被害人保護受刑人更生保護與收容環境改善等相關權益之規劃推動及監督等事項確保環境資訊服務語言與設施之無障礙"},{"start":17398.947,"end":17415.838,"text":"10.警政主管机关身心障碍者人身安全保护与失踪身心障碍者协巡警巡与具体司法禁用之规划推动及监督等事项12.文化主管机关规划推动及监督身心障碍文化参与权之落实"},{"start":17428.867,"end":17451.407,"text":"臺灣民主黨黨團提案新增第二條之一本法所稱可及性指身心障礙者的與平等基礎上無障礙的進入取得使用環境設施資訊通訊服務及商品並享有可負擔可使用及可理解之條件中央主管機關應會同中央目的事業主管機關參酌國際規範與通用設計原則訂定可及其"},{"start":17456.054,"end":17483.628,"text":"訂定可及性推動指引委員林月琴等十八人提案第三條修正第1261款文字身心障礙福利服務權益保障為身心障礙福利服務與權益保障予以現行法同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第三條修正第1261款文字身心障礙福利服務權益保障為身心障礙權益保障與福利服務予以現行法同"},{"start":17485.942,"end":17508.815,"text":"委員林月琴等十八人提案第四條修正第一二十款文字身心障礙福利服務權益保障為身心障礙福利服務與權益保障增訂第十款如下十身心障礙者同時具備其他社會福利身份時應整合服務資源提供服務現行第十款已為第十一款予以現行法同"},{"start":17509.635,"end":17534.009,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第四條修正第一二款文字身心障礙福利服務權益保障為身心障礙權益保障與福利服務修正第六款如下六身心障礙權益保障及保護業務之執行事項增訂第十款如下十交織身份之資源整合身心障障礙者具有其他福利身份時應盤點資源並提供規劃及執行服務"},{"start":17537.351,"end":17551.507,"text":"現行第十款已為第十一款修正如下十一 其他直轄市縣市身心障礙權益保障與福利服務政策之策劃及督導事項予以現行法同委員吳麗華等十八人提案第五條"},{"start":17552.128,"end":17572.763,"text":"修正第一項第三句為長期短暫或間歇有損傷者予以現行法第一項同增訂第二項如下因疾病或傷害致短期活動及社會參與受限者經評估卻有需求者得准用本法部分規定其適用之權益及服務範圍由中央主管機關另訂之"},{"start":17573.303,"end":17590.451,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五條修正第二三據為包括下列各款身體系統構造或功能長期短暫或間歇有損傷者或不全予以現行法同委員何新淳等17人委員羅美玲等16人委員劉建國等17人1101218號委員林月琴等18人提案第六條"},{"start":17599.144,"end":17625.553,"text":"第三項如下 第一項身心障礙鑑定機構或專業人員之指定身心障礙鑑定人員之資格條件鑑定方法與鑑定工具身心障礙類別鑑定像度程度分級與基準身心障礙無法減輕或恢復之基準及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央衛生主管機關定之修正第四項第二舉如下診斷診斷診號檢查或其他項目之費用"},{"start":17628.915,"end":17629.763,"text":"予以现行法同"},{"start":17631.141,"end":17660.34,"text":"委員陳金輝等十六人提案第六條第四項與委員何新淳等十七人提案同予以現行法同委員吳麗華等十八人提案第六條第一項如下直轄市縣市主管機關受理身心障礙者鑑定之申請時應交衛生主管機關指定相關機構或專業人員組成專業團隊進行鑑定及完成身心障礙鑑定報告第三項與委員何新淳等十七人提案同予以現行法同"},{"start":17661.261,"end":17681.602,"text":"委員何新淳等17人提案委員羅美玲等16人委員劉建國等17人11011218號提案第7條第4項莫懼違由中央主管機關定之予以現行法同委員林月琴等18人提案第7條第2項刪除家庭文字予以委員何新淳等17人提案同"},{"start":17682.162,"end":17701.094,"text":"委員吳麗華等十八人提案第七條修正第二項默劇為家庭支持需求等因素為之與委員何新存等十七人提案同委員王玉明等十七人提案第七條修正第二項默劇為社會參與需求頓好就業輔導需求等因素為之"},{"start":17702.194,"end":17721.347,"text":"與委員何欣淳等17人提案同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第7條第二項如下前項需求評估因應身心障礙者障礙類別程度經濟情況服務需求生活需求社會參與家庭支持需求等因素為之與委員何欣淳等17人提案同"},{"start":17722.188,"end":17742.458,"text":"委員范雲等17人提案第10條第一項守據為主管機關應以首長為召集人後段如下附召集人由身心障礙者代表推選之其成員任意性別不得少於三分之一第二至第四項如下前項身心障礙者代表之人數不得少於成員總數二分之一"},{"start":17743.298,"end":17759.354,"text":"並應兼顧本法第五條第一項各款障礙類別之均衡第一項身心障礙者代表得採公開選舉推派其公開選舉辦法由各級主管機關定之主管機關應於第一項規定之會議提供必要事足之無障礙環境"},{"start":17760.635,"end":17784.27,"text":"提供合理調整 確保公開透明 並於會議前公布議程 會議後公開會議記錄 第五項同現行法第三項 第六項如下 第一項權益保障事項與運作之辦法 由中央主管機關定之 前項第二款身心障礙權益受損協調之處理及其他應遵行事項之辦法 由各級主管機關定之 予以現行法同"},{"start":17784.87,"end":17811.532,"text":"委員何新淳等17人提案第10條第一項第二三具如下身心障礙領域學者專家民間相關機構後段如下其成員任意性別不得少於三分之一第二項如下前項身心障礙者代表學者專家民間相關機構及團體代表之人數不得少於總數二分之一其中身心障礙者人數不得少於二分之一並應兼顧各障礙類別均衡"},{"start":17813.564,"end":17838.909,"text":"第四項聚首增列第一項權益保障小組織組成及運作辦法頓好予以現行法同委員徐富奎等十八人提案第十條第一項前段倒數兩據為成立身心障礙者權益保障小組定期召開會議後段為其成員任意性別不得少於三分之一予以委員何新淳等十七人提案第一項同第三項如下"},{"start":17839.449,"end":17855.443,"text":"前項身心障礙者代表學者專家民間相關機構及團體代表之人數不得少於總數二分之一其中身心障礙者代表人數不得少於二分之一並應兼顧各障礙類別之均衡第四項聚首增練第一項權益保障小組織組成及運作辦法"},{"start":17858.706,"end":17886.344,"text":"與委員何欣淳等17人提案同 委員羅廷輝等16人提案第10條 現行第二句前面為 主管機關應聆聘派身心障礙者兒少身心障礙者身心障礙者團體代表身心障礙者監護人後段如下 其中聆聘身心障礙者或身心障礙團體代表比例不得少於全體委員二分之一第二項如下 前項制代表單一性別不得少於三分之一"},{"start":17886.824,"end":17908.246,"text":"其中身心障礙者代表單一性別不得少於三分之一第三項第三四款如下三受理身心障礙者應遭歧視所提申訴或再申訴事件四其他促進身心障礙者權益及福利保障相關事宜第四項文字協調後面增列或再協調四個字予以現行法同"},{"start":17910.356,"end":17932.323,"text":"委員廖偉祥等19人提案第10條第4項同現行法第4項與委員羅廷威等16人提案同委員林楚瑩等20人提案第10條第一至第三項如下主管機關應聘聘身心障礙者代表身心障礙領域學者專家民間相關機構團體代表及各目的事業主管機關代表成立身心障礙者權益推動小組"},{"start":17934.604,"end":17957.677,"text":"辦理身心障礙者權益保障事項其成員任意性別不得少於三分之一前項身心障礙者代表不得少於二分之一並應兼顧各障礙類別之均衡第一項身心障礙者權益推動小組各代表主管機關得失需要採公開遴選後聘之第四項同線刑法第三項第五項同委員核心存等17人提案第四項"},{"start":17959.924,"end":17982.049,"text":"委員陳經緯等16人提案第10條第一項 第一二具如下主管機關應聆聘派身心障礙者或其監護人代表身心障礙領域學者專家第二項如下前項身心障礙者或其監護人代表學者專家民間相關機構及團體代表之人數不得少於總數二分之一其中身心障礙者人數不得少於二分之一"},{"start":17982.869,"end":18011.637,"text":"並應兼顧各障礙類別之均衡第三項同現行法第三項第四項同委員何新淳等17人提案第四項委員羅美玲等16人提案第十條第五項如下第一項鎖定身心障礙者代表應包含身心障礙兒童或少年與委員何新淳等17人提案同委員劉建國等17人提案11011218號第十條第一期第二項如下主管機關應聘派身心障礙者"},{"start":18012.077,"end":18027.174,"text":"包括兒童或少年代表身心障礙領域學者專家民間相關機構團體代表及各目的事業主管機關代表推動身心障礙者權益保障事項其委員任意性別不得少於三分之一前向身心障礙"},{"start":18027.975,"end":18052.515,"text":"障礙者代表學者專家民間相關機構及團體代表之人數不得少於總數二分之一其中身心障礙者人數不得少於二分之一並應兼顧各障礙類別之均衡第三項序文為第一項權益保障事項如下第二款為二協調身心障礙者權益受損事宜第四項守據為第一項委員組成與運作予以現行法同"},{"start":18054.321,"end":18081.978,"text":"委員林月琴等十八人提案第十條第一及第二項如下主管機關應以首長為召集人臨聘派身心障礙者代表身心障礙領域學者專家民間相關機構團體代表及各目的事業主管機關代表辦理身心障礙者權益保障事項其成員任意性別不得少於三分之一前項身心障礙者代表學者專家民間相關機構及團體代表之人數不得少於總數二分之一"},{"start":18082.638,"end":18088.345,"text":"其中具身心障礙者身份之人數不得少於二分之一並應兼顧各障礙類別之均衡"},{"start":18093.789,"end":18112.077,"text":"第三項同線刑法第三項 第四項如下第一項權益保障事項與運作 成員臨聘派程序及前項第二款身心障礙者權益受損協調之處理及其他應遵行事項之辦法由各級主管機關定之 委員吳麗華等十八人提案第十條"},{"start":18112.757,"end":18129.628,"text":"第一項前段莫具及後段如下辦理身心障礙者權益保障事項其委員任意性別不得少於三分之一予以委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號第一項同第二項文字並應兼顧各障礙類別後面之文字為"},{"start":18130.808,"end":18157.066,"text":"遁號 性別 年齡 族群等身份之均衡予以委員劉建國等17人提案同第三項與委員劉建國等17人提案同第四項與委員何欣存等17人提案同委員王玉明等17人提案第十條第一項後段如下其中聆聘身心障礙者兒少身心障礙者及身心障礙團體代表合計之比例不得少於全體委員二分之一並應兼顧各障礙類別之均衡"},{"start":18157.586,"end":18180.824,"text":"予以委員羅廷威等十六人提案第一項同第二項予以委員羅廷威等十六人提案第二項同第三項第二款如下二受理身心障礙者權益受損協調或申訴事宜予以現行法第三項同第四項如下前三項是運作權益受損協調申訴事件處理其他權益保障之處理及其他應遵行事項之辦法"},{"start":18181.244,"end":18203.473,"text":"由各級主管機關定之臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第十條主管機關應設置身心障礙者權益保障委員會公開招募並領選身心障礙者團體及個人代表並與受聆聘派身心障礙及人權領域學者或專家民間相關機構身心障礙服務及專業團體代表共同組成"},{"start":18205.379,"end":18228.318,"text":"身心障礙者團體 細職以保障身心障礙者權益與推動福利服務為宗旨並具備下列要件之團體一 由身心障礙者領導管理及參與決策二 會員理監事及幹部中 具身心障礙者身份者占總人數二分之一以上三 組織章程內容不得違反身心障礙者權利公約之精神與原則"},{"start":18229.179,"end":18246.1,"text":"第一項身心障礙者代表比例不得少於二分之一領選時應考慮各障礙類別之均衡第一項之代表任意性別不得少於三分之一委員會以主管機關首長為主任委員並由具身心障礙者身份之代表推選若干副主任委員"},{"start":18246.761,"end":18268.314,"text":"有關身心障礙者權益保障委員會受理事項及運作相關辦法由各級主管機關定之委員羅美玲等16人提案新增第10條之一政府及公司力機構團體應確保身心障礙者就影響其權益之政策及法規得表示意見並提供便於各類身心障礙者可禁用之資訊"},{"start":18269.435,"end":18285.677,"text":"委員 劉建國等17人提案1101218號新增第10條之一機關 機構 學校 法人或團體於訂定影響身心障礙者權益追証策法規或規章時應提供身心障礙者可禁用之資訊及表示意見之機會"},{"start":18287.159,"end":18310.318,"text":"委員林月琴等18人提案新增第10條之一政府及公司力機構團體得就影響身心障礙者權益之政策及法規表示意見並提供便於各類身心障礙者可禁用之資訊新增委員委員伍麗華等18人提案新增第10條之一機關機構學校法人或團體於訂定影響身心障礙者權益之政策法規規章類辨別"},{"start":18313.04,"end":18330.616,"text":"編列預算編列預算時應透過各種無障礙方式公開揭示提供身心障礙者可禁用之資訊及表示意見之機會身心障礙者及其代表團體對於前項事項認為涉及其權益者得向各目的事業主管機關主張被諮詢之權利"},{"start":18331.937,"end":18355.815,"text":"委員王玉明等17人提案第10條之一政府及公司立機構團體應提供便於各類身心障礙者可禁用之資訊並確保身心障礙者就影響其權益之政策及法規得充分表達意見身心障礙者表達意見之公共政策參與平臺應為常態性設置並顧及身心障礙者總人數或個障別"},{"start":18356.916,"end":18370.529,"text":"類型就有關其自身之議題分別制定公共政策制定與議題討論成案之附議門檻前向身心障礙者公共政策參議平台之運作方式議題或"},{"start":18371.65,"end":18390.082,"text":"案附議門檻及相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之台灣民眾黨黨團提案新增第十條之一簽條鎖定委員會負責事項如下一負責規劃研究諮詢與協調推動促進身心障礙者權益保障及人權相關事宜"},{"start":18390.602,"end":18415.86,"text":"二受理身心障礙者權益受損協調事宜三其他有關身心障礙者權利公約之推動監督與落實事項臺灣民眾黨黨團提案新增第十條之二各級機關機構學校法人或團體於制定修正或執行涉及身心障礙者權益之政策法規或規章時應提供可及之資訊並保障身心障礙者有表達意見及實質參與之機會"},{"start":18419.113,"end":18445.286,"text":"委員 羅廷瑋等16人提案第11條各級政府應至少每3年舉辦各障別 各障礙程度各援助民族身份之身心障礙者之生活狀況保健醫療特殊教育就業與訓練交通及福利支持人力長期照顧經濟安全等需求評估及服務調查研究並應出版公布調查研究結果國家推動新政策應先通過身心障礙影響評估後方可實施"},{"start":18447.387,"end":18453.209,"text":"行政院每五年辦理全國人口普查時應將身心障礙者人口調查納入普查項目委員林月琴等18人提案第11條第一項文字保健醫療後面增列頓號輔助科技予以現行法同"},{"start":18466.246,"end":18481.983,"text":"委員吳麗華等18人提案第11條各級政府應至少每5年舉辦身心障礙者之經濟狀況保健醫療特殊教育就業與訓練休閒娛樂人力支持交通及福利等需求評估及服務調查研究"},{"start":18483.004,"end":18496.975,"text":"並應出版公布調查研究結果前項調查與公布方式應充分諮詢身心障礙者及其團體行政院每十年辦理全國人口普查時應將身心障礙者人口調查納入普查項目"},{"start":18497.956,"end":18513.192,"text":"委員何新淳等17人委員羅美玲等16人委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號委員吳麗華等18人提案第15條修正第一項文字第一項至第三項為第二項至第四項予以現行法同"},{"start":18513.812,"end":18537.593,"text":"委員范雲等17人提案第16條第二項至第4項如下公共設施場所營運者因使身心障礙者得公平使用設施設備或享有權利第一項所稱之歧視包括直接歧視間接歧視拒絕提供合理調整以及騷擾機關構事業機構法人或團體因歧視而使身心障礙者受有損害者應付賠償責任雖非"},{"start":18541.931,"end":18552.48,"text":"財產上之損害亦得請求賠償相當之金額其名譽被侵害者並得請求回復名譽之適當處分予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等19人提案第16條第一項至第二項與委員范雲等17人提案同"},{"start":18556.883,"end":18571.762,"text":"第三項如下 機關構 團體 學校 事業機構或法人辦理教育 招考 禁用就業 醫療服務 矯正措施等權益事項因醫生心障礙者個別障礙需求進行必要及適當之合理調整"},{"start":18572.342,"end":18596.108,"text":"委員何欣淳等17人提案第16條第一項至第二項與委員范雲等17人提案同第三項如下機關構學校事業機構法人或團體辦理教育招考禁用就業醫療服務矯正措施等權宜事項因應身心障礙者個別障礙需求與不造成不成比例或過度負擔之情況下進行必要及適當之合理調整"},{"start":18597.248,"end":18620.348,"text":"委員羅廷輝等十六人提案第十六條第一至第二項與委員范雲等十七人提案同第三至第五項如下機關構學校事業機構法人或團體辦理教育招考禁用就業醫療服務矯正措施等權益事項因應身心障礙者個別障礙需求與不造成不成比例或過度負擔之情況下進行必要及適當之合理調整"},{"start":18621.929,"end":18640.897,"text":"身心障礙者應前向各單位為提供合理調整致權利受不法侵害者視為歧視除其他法律令有規定者外得向主管機關提起申訴前二項合理調整之請求對象請求範圍審查與申訴機制之相關準則由各目的事業主管機關定之"},{"start":18643.869,"end":18669.754,"text":"委員廖維祥等19人提案第16條身心障礙者之人格及合法權益應受尊重及保障公私利機關購公法人團體學校企業其他團體或個人對其接受教育應考禁用就業居住行動搭乘交通工具遷徙取得資訊獲取金融服務醫療隱私參政體育參與文化生活禁用司法"},{"start":18670.194,"end":18692.674,"text":"禁用其他救濟管道及其他基本人權不得有下列之行為一 於相同情況下對身心障礙者為拒絕禁止限制差別待遇或其他直接歧視之行為者但因工作性質不適合特定身心障礙者或因特定身心障礙者具特殊情勢需採取不同處理之正當理由者不在此限"},{"start":18693.314,"end":18709.502,"text":"二 錢款以外以法令政策或其他相類似之行為至身心障礙者之權益無法或難以實施者三 未進行無障礙之建制或未進行合理調整者四 對身心障礙者為貶義 戲謔羞辱 敵視 仇恨或其他騷擾之言語或行為或刻意塑造對身心障礙者"},{"start":18715.305,"end":18734.901,"text":"為貶抑 戏虐 羞辱 敵視 仇恨或其他騷擾之環境者前項第三款所稱無障礙只為確保身心障礙者與他人平等之基礎上可進出物理環境搭乘交通工具 獲取資訊使用通訊傳播系統或享有其他公眾開放或提供之設施及服務"},{"start":18735.561,"end":18750.575,"text":"以確保其接受教育應好禁用就業居住行動搭乘交通工具遷徙取得資訊獲取金融服務醫療隱私參政體育參與文化生活禁用司法禁用其他救濟管道及其他基本人權者"},{"start":18751.095,"end":18771.465,"text":"第一項第三款所稱合理調整除有特別規定外只依身心障礙者之具體需要與不造成過度或不當之負擔下進行必要及適當之修改與調整以確保身心障礙者與他人平等之基礎上享有或行使其接受教育應考禁用就業居住行動搭乘交通工具"},{"start":18772.525,"end":18801.845,"text":"遷徙取得資訊獲取金融服務醫療參政體育參與文化生活禁用司法禁用其他救濟管道或其他基本人權者前向合理調整之判斷其身心障礙之類別調整之方式及其他相關事項由主管機關定之身心障礙者之配偶三親等內之親屬共同生活之親屬家長家屬或監護人應第一項情形遭逢連帶歧視者其人格及合法權益應受到保障"},{"start":18803.847,"end":18814.397,"text":"委員陳金輝等16人提案第16條與委員羅廷威等16人提案第一至第三項同委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號第16條第一項與現行法同第二項至第六項如下"},{"start":18819.122,"end":18846.436,"text":"任何人對身心障礙者不得公開為歧視之言行公開設施場所營運者因使身心障礙者都公平使用設施設備或享有權利機關機構學校法人或團體辦理教育招考禁用就業醫療服務矯正措施或其他經中央主管機關公告之權益事項應依身心障礙者個別障礙需求與不造成不成比例或過度負擔之情況下經協調程序進行必要及適當之合理調整"},{"start":18847.596,"end":18871.001,"text":"並建立身心障礙者申訴管道本法中華民國全年全月全日修正之條文施行後一年內中央主管機關及中央目的事業主管機關應就前項合理調整適用範圍協商程序及申訴管道之指引公告之機關機構學校法人或團體應於前項指引公告後二年內訂定合理調整流程並公開揭示之"},{"start":18872.85,"end":18901.018,"text":"委員林月琴等18人提案第16條身心障礙者之人格及合法權益應受尊重及保障對其接受教育 應考 禁用 就業居住 遷徙 醫療等權益不得有歧視之對待公共設施場所營運者因使身心障礙者公平使用設施設備或享有權利機關構學校事業單位法人或團體辦理教育 招考 禁用 就業醫療 居住 矯正等權益事項"},{"start":18901.938,"end":18919.757,"text":"應依身心障礙者個別障礙需求與不造成不成比例或過度負擔之情況下進行必要及適當之合理調整中央各目的事業主管機關應與本條文修正公布後一年內公告前項合理調整適用範圍協商程序及救濟管道之指引"},{"start":18920.798,"end":18936.719,"text":"機關構學校事業機構法人或團體應依前項指引公告後二年內定定合理調整流程且公開揭示之委員吳麗華等十八人提案第十六條第一項如下身心障礙者之人格及合法權益應受尊重及保障"},{"start":18937.379,"end":18958.365,"text":"對其接受教育應考禁用就業居住遷徙醫療體育運動政治參與休閒娛樂等權益不得有歧視之對待其中包含身心障礙者之家屬親友相關工作人員等關聯性歧視之禁止第二項至第五項與委員劉建國等17人提案第三項至第六項同"},{"start":18959.125,"end":18980.333,"text":"委員王玉明等17人提案第16條身心障礙者之人格及合法權益應受尊重及保障公私利機關購公法人團體學校企業其他團體或個人對其接受教育應考禁用就業居住遷徙醫療體育文化活動參與公共事務獲取金融服務資訊禁用隱私等權益不得有下列行為"},{"start":18981.053,"end":19001.929,"text":"一為造成不成比例或過度負擔之情況下為進行無障礙之建制或合理調整者二與相同情形下對身心障礙者為拒絕禁止限制差別待遇或其他直接歧視之行為者三以法令政策或其他相類之事由致身心障礙者權益無法或難以實施者四"},{"start":19003.267,"end":19022.849,"text":"對身心障礙者為貶義 戏虐 羞辱 敵視 仇恨或其他騷擾之言語或行為或以前開方式刻意對身心障礙者塑造不友善環境者中央各目的事業主管機關英語本條文修正公布後一年內公告前項合理調整使用範圍協商程序及救濟管道之指引"},{"start":19023.59,"end":19052.682,"text":"公司立機關過公法人團體學校企業其他團體應依前項指引公告後二年內定定合理調整流程且公開揭示之臺灣民眾黨黨團體案第十六條身心障礙者之人格及合法權益應受尊重及保障對其接受教育應考禁用就業居住遷徙醫療體育運動政治參與休閒娛樂等權益不得有歧視之對待任何人對身心障礙者不得公開為歧視之言行"},{"start":19053.522,"end":19068.728,"text":"公共設施場所營運者因此身心障礙者得公平使用設施設備或享有權利機關機構團體學校與企業公開辦理教育招考徵聘禁用就學就業交通醫療與健康照護服務"},{"start":19069.548,"end":19091.994,"text":"休閒娛樂 體育運動 政治參與 文化生活矯正措施 監索儲育等權益事項因應身心障礙者個別障礙需求在考試公平原則下提供多元化適性協助 合理調整以保障身心障礙者公平應考機會若涉及其事可透過身心障礙者權益保障委員會進行申訴"},{"start":19093.254,"end":19118.915,"text":"委員范雲等17人提案新增第16條之一機關構學校事業機構法人或團體辦理教育招考金用就業醫療服務矯正措施等權益事項以及提供向公眾開放之設施或服務因應身心障礙者個別障礙需求與不造成不成比例或過度負擔之情況下進行必要及適當之合理調整身心障礙者與其權利之享有或行使"},{"start":19119.716,"end":19134.398,"text":"因上述義務承擔人之物理環境規定標準或做法而致顯著不利者得向義務承擔人提出合理調整要求該要求提出後義務承擔人應啟動對話就合理調整進行協商"},{"start":19135.299,"end":19153.885,"text":"若義務承擔人認為合理調整措施造成不符比例或過度負擔而拒絕提供者需負舉證責任因合理調整所生之成本由義務承擔人負擔政府應對義務承擔人提供經費與行政資源以確保障礙者之權利"},{"start":19155.99,"end":19173.4,"text":"委員林月琴等十八人提案新增第十六條之一前條第一項所稱歧視只對身心障礙者為下列各款之行為一 於相同情況下對身心障礙者為拒絕禁止限制差別待遇之行為者但因工作性質不適合特定身心障礙者"},{"start":19173.82,"end":19203.035,"text":"或因特定身心障碍者具特殊情勢需采取不同处理就正当理由者不在此限二 钱款以外以法令 政策或其他相类似之行为致身心障碍者之权益无法或难以实施者三 对身心障碍者为贬义 戏虐羞辱 敌视 仇恨或其他骚扰言语或行为或刻意塑造对身心障碍者为贬义 戏虐羞辱 敌视 仇视或其他骚扰之环境者"},{"start":19203.915,"end":19232.64,"text":"違反第一項第一款第三款對他人之身體健康名譽自由信用隱私徵鈔或其他人格法義為不法侵害而情節重大者得為賠償之請求被害人雖非財產上之損害亦得請求賠償相當之金額其名譽被侵害者並得請求回復名譽之適當處分台灣民眾黨黨團提案新增第十六條之一公私立機關構學校事業機構法輪候團體辦理教育招考"},{"start":19233.6,"end":19257.157,"text":"徵聘禁用就學就業交通醫療與健康照護服務休閒娛樂體育活動體育運動政治參與文化生活矯正措施監鎖廚藥等權益事項以及提供向公眾開放之設施或服務因醫身心障礙者個別障礙需求與不造成不成比例或過度負擔之情況下進行必要及適當之合理調整"},{"start":19258.078,"end":19274.954,"text":"身心障礙者與其權利之享有或行使應上述義務承擔人之物理環境規定標準或做法而致顯著不利者得向公司立機關構學校事業機構法人或團體提出合理調整要求該要求提出後義務承擔人應啟動協商"},{"start":19277.476,"end":19302.253,"text":"若该公司力机关购学校事业机构法人或团体认为合理调整措施造成不符比例或过度负担而拒绝提供者需负举证责任因合理调整所生之成本由该公司力机关购学校事业机构法人或团体负担政府应向公司力机关购学校事业机构法人或团体提供经费与行政资源"},{"start":19303.033,"end":19321.466,"text":"政府機關公立學校及公營事業機構於禁用或聘任身心障礙者時應積極提供無障礙設施合理調整及必要之協助服務並提供並辦理員工障礙平權教育訓練以促進職場融合委員林月琴等18人提案第18條"},{"start":19323.089,"end":19352.205,"text":"增列第一項第一款如下一社會福利主管機關身心障礙者人格維護及人身安全保護案件資訊現行第一至第五款第一為第二至第六款修正第六款如下六護證主管機關身心障礙者人口異動及監護輔助案件資訊予以現行法同委員吳麗華等18人提案第18條第一項第一款莫具為發展遲緩或特殊需求之兒童資訊予以現行法同"},{"start":19353.025,"end":19371.224,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第18條立項第一款莫具為發展此款或有特殊需求兒童資訊增列第六款如下6 援助民族事務主管機關涵蓋原住民民族別及身心障礙類別等交織身份之統計資訊予以先行法同"},{"start":19371.844,"end":19399.169,"text":"委員林月琴等十八人提案第二十條為促進身心障礙輔具資源整合研究發展及服務中央主管機關應整合各目的事業主管機關推動辦理身心障礙輔具資源整合研究發展需求評估規格制定等相關事宜並推動進出口貿易購置二手交易租賃等交易及服務模式前向輔具資源整合研究發展"},{"start":19400.208,"end":19428.431,"text":"需求評估 規劃 制定及交易及服務模式之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央教育勞工科技研究事務經濟主管機關定之台灣民眾黨黨團提案第20條為促進身心障礙 輔具資源整合研究發展 權益保障服務政策中央主管機關應整合各目的事業主管機關推動辦理身心障礙 輔具資源整合研究發展及社會福利服務政策等相關事宜"},{"start":19429.512,"end":19449.884,"text":"輔具服務及補助應符合可及性原則並提供保養與維修補助其相關辦法由中央主管機關定制輔具服務及補助政策應考量性別年齡生活型態及族群文化等多元需求提供個別畫質補助與支持措施其幾副項目不限於現行補助範圍"},{"start":19452.099,"end":19472.776,"text":"委員何欣存等17人提案第21條修正第三項莫具為由中央衛生主管機關會同相關主管機關定之予以先行法同委員羅廷威等16人提案委員廖偉祥等19人提案第21條中央衛生主管機關因規劃整合醫療資源提供身心障礙者健康維護及生育保健"},{"start":19473.436,"end":19493.635,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關應定期舉辦身心障礙者健康檢查保健服務及心理健康促進並依健康檢查結果及身心障礙者意願提供追蹤服務前向心理健康促進細止透過法規政策社區營造與資源投入促進人民心理健康適能之教育"},{"start":19494.315,"end":19513.476,"text":"心理不適防護措施以增加個人家庭照顧者被照顧者家人學校社區職場與整個社會與物理環境的心理健康保護因子減少危害因子第二項保健服務追蹤服務健康檢查項目及方式之準則由中央衛生主管機關定之"},{"start":19514.116,"end":19537.521,"text":"委員羅美玲等16人 委員劉建國等17人 委員林月琴等18人 委員吳立華等18人提案第21條修正第三項默劇為由中央衛生主管機關定之予以現行法同委員王玉明等17人提案第21條第一項及第二項同委員羅廷威等16人提案第一項及第二項第三項與委員羅美玲等16人提案第三項同"},{"start":19539.742,"end":19555.31,"text":"委員 羅廷瑋等十六人 委員廖偉祥等十九人 提案第二十二條各級衛生主管機關應整合醫療資源一 身心障礙者個別需求提供保健醫療服務並協助身心障礙福利機構及社區心理衛生中心提供所需之保健醫療服務"},{"start":19557.389,"end":19575.019,"text":"委員林月琴等18人提案第22條修正第二句如下一身心障礙者個別需求提供保健醫療及陪同就醫服務予以現行法同委員羅廷威等16人提案第23條第一項予現行法同第二項續文及第一及第二款予現行法"},{"start":19575.379,"end":19594.375,"text":"第二項續文及第一及第二款同第三款如下三 社區醫療復健與社區支持服務資源轉介服務委員廖惟祥等19人提案第23條第二項第三款如下三 社區資源復健與社區支持服務資源轉介服務予以先行發同"},{"start":19595.035,"end":19614.576,"text":"委員吳麗華等18人提案第23條第二項第9至第11款如下9個人協助服務10同儕支持服務11其他出院準備相關事宜予以現行法同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第23條第一項如下醫院應設置服務窗口為身心障礙者提供無障礙就醫環境"},{"start":19615.917,"end":19634.691,"text":"包含出入動線、檢查儀器與設備、診療台、後診與病房空間、如側沐浴設施、輔具設備及溝通服務或其他有助於就醫之相關支持以保障其醫療可及性與平等就醫權益"},{"start":19635.732,"end":19653.264,"text":"第二項第九至第十一款如下九個人協助服務十同儕支持服務十一其他與出院準備相關事宜予以現行法第二項同第三項如下前項出院準備計畫之執行因由中央衛生主管機關列入醫院評鑑指標"},{"start":19654.726,"end":19678.702,"text":"委員吳麗華等18人提案第25條增訂第二三項路下為保障身心障礙者就近就醫之權益直轄市縣市衛生主管機關應擬定就醫環境無障礙之輔導辦法並推動改善社區型各級診所之就醫環境都市部落及偏鄉地區之巡迴醫療服務應保障身心障礙者之可靜性需求"},{"start":19679.322,"end":19706.681,"text":"其測量及服務內容應符合無障礙原則現行第二項已為第四項予以現行法同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第二十五條第一項與現行法第一項同第二三四項如下直轄市縣市衛生主管機關應擬定就醫環境無障礙之輔導與改善計畫協助社區型各級診所逐步改善其無障礙空間設施及服務以保障身心障礙者就醫就近就醫之權益"},{"start":19708.462,"end":19723.909,"text":"都市部落及偏鄉地區所設巡迴醫療車應確保服務車輛設備及流程符合身心障礙者可及性之需求第一項鎖定機構及服務之講注及輔導辦法由中央衛生主管機關定制"},{"start":19725.649,"end":19749.535,"text":"委員何謙淳等17人提案第26條修正第二項莫具為由中央衛生主管機關會同相關主管機關定之予以現行法通委員羅美玲等16人委員劉建國等17人委員吳麗華等18人委員王玉敏等17人提案第26條修正第二項莫具為由中央衛生主管機關定之予以現行法通委員劉建國等17人提案第26條"},{"start":19750.675,"end":19765.968,"text":"身心障礙者醫療復健所需之醫療費用及醫療輔具尚未納入全民健康保險給付範圍者直轄市縣市主管機關因依需求評估結果補助之前項補助辦法由中央衛生主管機關定之"},{"start":19767.614,"end":19786.115,"text":"委員 林月琴等18人提案第26條第一項與現行法第一項同第二三項如下前項補助辦法由中央衛生主管機關訂定並每二年應檢討之第二項補助辦法之訂定與檢討應由中央衛生主管機關召集使用者產業研發醫療復健及其他專業團體為之"},{"start":19788.823,"end":19814.605,"text":"委員吳麗華等18人提案第27條修正第二項莫具為尚未設置適當設施無提供個人協助服務或其他理由拒絕其入學修正第四項第二具為應由政府免費提供無障礙交通工具修正第四項第五具為應補助其無障礙交通費與與現行法同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第27條第一三項與現行法同"},{"start":19815.72,"end":19832.463,"text":"修正第二項默劇為頓好為提供個人協助服務或其他理由拒絕其入學予以現行法第二項同第四至第六項如下第一項身心障礙學生無法自行上下學者於在學期間應由政府免費提供無障礙交通工具"},{"start":19833.124,"end":19860.424,"text":"確有困難無法提供者 應補助其無障礙交通費直轄市縣市教育主管機關經費不足者由中央教育主管機關補助之直轄市縣市教育主管機關因為身心障礙學生提供課後及寒暑假輔導班並提供交通方式人力協助經費不足者由中央教育主管機關補助之各級教育主管機關機關應保障身心障礙學生參與校外教學活動之權益"},{"start":19861.584,"end":19889.663,"text":"並應主動提供無障礙交通方式人力支持服務及無障礙教學環境及住宿台灣民眾黨黨團提案第28條修正後段守據如下並應主動協助無法外出、就學偏鄉、正在接受醫療與與現行法同委員林月琴等18人提案第30條修正倒數第4具如下特殊教材與各種教育輔助器材與輔助科技修正末具如下"},{"start":19891.864,"end":19916.759,"text":"修正默劇如下使其得以公平合理接受教育及考試之機會予以現行法同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第30條各級教育主管機關辦理身心障礙者教育及入學考試時應依其障礙類別程度學習及生活需要提供各項必須之專業人員個人協助服務無障礙格式教材與資訊特殊教材"},{"start":19917.539,"end":19937.675,"text":"與各種教育輔助器材 無障礙校園環境無障礙交通 無障礙應考方式與場所點字讀物及相關教育資源以服務公平合理接受教育之機會與應考條件委員馬文君等19人提案第30條之一修正文字教育為文化及教育"},{"start":19939.975,"end":19954.272,"text":"圖書館為博物館及圖書館予以現行法同委員吳麗華等18人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第30條之一第一項倒數第二句為以無障礙數位格式提供圖書資源予以現行法同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":19957.287,"end":19983.104,"text":"委員吳麗華等18人提案第30條之二第一項倒數第二句為以利製作專攻視覺功能障礙者及前條第一項其他特定身心障礙者可即興之無障礙格式予以現行法同第二項如下前項所稱數位格式由中央教育主管機關與身心障礙者及相關專業團體嚴商訂定之臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第30條之二第一項第三句如下"},{"start":19983.624,"end":20005.658,"text":"向中央教育主管機關指定之機關構或學校提供所出版教科用書之無障礙數位格式予以委員吳麗華等18人提案同第二項如下前項所稱數位格式由中央教育主管機關與身心障礙者身心障礙團體相關專業團體共同延商訂定"},{"start":20007.662,"end":20024.414,"text":"委員吳麗華等十八人提案第三十一條第一項默劇為研發無障礙教具教材等服務予以現行法通台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三十三條於第二項文字植物在設計後面增列頓號合理調整予以現行法通"},{"start":20025.134,"end":20052.467,"text":"委員陳冠廷等16人提案第38條修正第一項默劇為不得低於員工總人數4%予以現行法同委員劉建國等17人提案第38條修正第三項文字每月一日為每月末日修正第七及第八項文字單位為機關刮鬍單位予以現行法同委員林月琴等18人提案第38條修正第三項文字每月一日為每月末日"},{"start":20053.584,"end":20075.34,"text":"予以現行法同委員吳麗華等18人提案第38條修正第4項倒數第二句為其月領薪資達勞動基準法案月計酬之最低工資數額二分之一以上者予以委員劉建國等17人提案同委員王玉明等17人提案新增第38條之二公立學校無法於編制內甄選錄取或調派足額身心障礙者"},{"start":20078.482,"end":20099.497,"text":"需另行禁用具有就業能力之身心障礙約用人員或依本法第43條第二項規定繳納差額補助費時其經費應由直轄市縣市政府編列預算支應直轄市縣市勞工主管機關應協助媒合具有就業能力之身心障礙約用人員"},{"start":20100.888,"end":20127.709,"text":"委員吳立華等18人提案新增第39條之一各級政府機關公立學校及公營事業機構為禁用身心障礙者應積極提供無障礙設施設備合理調整個人協助服務資源服務連結及員工障礙平權訓練以利促進實質平等委員吳立華等18人提案第40條修正第一項默劇為不得低於最低工資予以現行法同"},{"start":20130.098,"end":20144.053,"text":"委員王宏威等二十人提案新增第四十條之一禁用身心障礙者之各級政府機關公立學校及公營事業機構因本與平等精神至少提供其執行業務基本所需之友善資訊及通訊傳播系統"},{"start":20146.676,"end":20164.447,"text":"委員侯孟楷等十八人 委員柯智恩等十八人提案新增第四十條之一刪除默劇文字至少予以委員王宏威等二十人提案同委員吳麗華等十八人提案第四十二條修正第二項默劇為不得低於最低工資予以現行法同"},{"start":20165.447,"end":20193.002,"text":"委員吳麗華等18人提案第43條修正第二項默劇為依差額人數乘以每月最低工資計算予以先行法通委員林月琴等18人提案第44條增列第一項第三至第四款如下三協助身心障礙者依據其障礙類別為媒合適性工作與職務在設計之費用四處理身心障礙者遭受就業歧視雇主不當對待等爭議事件之訴訟輔助費用"},{"start":20194.744,"end":20204.164,"text":"現行第三款一列為第五款予以現行法通委員吳麗華等18人提案第44條第二項如下前項第二款核發制獎勵金其金額最高"},{"start":20205.512,"end":20230.251,"text":"其金額最高按超額禁用人數乘以每月最低工資二分之一計算予以現行法同委員吳麗華等十八人提案第四十六條刪除現行第一及第六項現行第二至第五項一列為第一至第四項委員范雲等十七人委員羅廷威等十六人委員廖偉祥等十九人委員王玉敏等十七人提案新增第四章之一個人協助"},{"start":20231.172,"end":20249.206,"text":"委員范雲等17人提案第47條之一為使身心障礙者平等融入社會確保其個人自主自立生活社會參與各級主管機關應提供身心障礙者個人協助服務前向個人協助之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關定之"},{"start":20250.467,"end":20271.375,"text":"委員羅廷威等十六人委員廖維祥等十九人提案第四十七條之一為使身心障礙者平等融入社會確保個人自主和自立各級主管機關應提供身心障礙者個人協助服務所需預算應優先編列前向個人協助之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關定之"},{"start":20273.652,"end":20286.549,"text":"委員王玉明等17人提案第47條之一為使身心障礙者平等融入社會確保個人自主和自利各級主管機關應提供身心障礙者個人協助服務並寬列預算各類型"},{"start":20288.832,"end":20307.297,"text":"個人協助服務及時數應由中央主管機關整合申請管道並簡化程序前二項個人協助之服務提供收費標準補助裁員申請管道整合程序簡化及相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關定之"},{"start":20308.457,"end":20330.15,"text":"委員范雲等17人提案第47條之二身心障礙者有權利使用個人協助服務不得因性別年齡族群障別有差別對待各級主管機關不得因身心障礙者自行聘用看護或或其使用居家日間或住宿住宿室照顧服務盡為駁回停止撤銷或廢止其個人協助之服務"},{"start":20333.832,"end":20349.662,"text":"委員羅廷輝等16人委員廖偉翔等19人提案第47條之二第一項如下身心障礙者無分性別年齡障礙類別或族群有權使用個人協助服務第二項與委員范雲等17人提案"},{"start":20350.763,"end":20376.426,"text":"第二項同委員王玉敏等17人提案第47條之二為使身心障礙者可按其意願增加生活自主性政府應提供以下類型之個人協助服務一居家生活個人衛生洗澡沐浴如廁用藥飲食備餐穿衣移動協助家事清潔報讀引導電腦操作陪伴或其他個別需求"},{"start":20377.046,"end":20397.225,"text":"二外出支持購物就醫社會活動參與休閒旅行或參與其他社會之方式三教育或職場協助四其他能使身心障礙者增加生活自主性所必須之協助前向個人協助服務內容之規劃應由身心障礙者本人參與之"},{"start":20398.786,"end":20421.453,"text":"委員范雲等17人提案第47條之三個人協助得以下列各款之方式為之以符合身心障礙者之日常生活實際需求一 居家生活二 外出支持三 接受教育之協助四 職場與工作之協助五 社會角色支持六 同儕支持七 與他人溝通交流之個別化支持"},{"start":20422.173,"end":20429.501,"text":"八協力和倡議 九降低危機和規劃 十非醫療模式之心策略提供協助 十一"},{"start":20430.993,"end":20453.227,"text":"其他促使障礙者自主生活所需之服務前向個人協助之服務內容應由身心障礙者本人參與決定之委員羅廷輝等16人委員廖偉翔等19人提案第47條之三個人協助得以下列各款之方式為之以符合身心障礙者之日常生活實際需求一同儕支持二賠利和倡議三"},{"start":20454.628,"end":20471.381,"text":"降低危機和規劃四 非醫療模式之新策略提供協助前項所稱身心障礙者之日常生活實際需求應包括支持身心障礙者做決定參與倡議活動以支持建立生活上社會網路及與社區連結"},{"start":20472.982,"end":20487.948,"text":"為提升身心障礙者自主性與個人經驗者得以下列各款規定之服務內容提供個人協助一居家生活個人衛生洗澡沐浴如廁用藥飲食備餐穿衣移動協助家事清潔報讀引導電腦操作陪伴或其他個別需求二外出支持購物就醫社會活動參與"},{"start":20496.912,"end":20518.939,"text":"休閒旅行或參與其他社會之方式三 社會角色支持親子與家庭角色執行四 接受教育及工作與職場協助五 與他人溝通交流之個別化支持六 其他促使障礙者自主生活所需之服務前向個人協助之服務內容應由身心障礙者本人參與決定之"},{"start":20522.304,"end":20539.243,"text":"委員王玉明等17人提案第47條之三直轄市縣市主管機關對於個人協助服務實數之核定應綜合考量身心障礙者之生理及心理需求社會角色及其活動參與並納入本人或其決策支持者之意見"},{"start":20541.724,"end":20557.498,"text":"委員范雲等17人委員廖偉祥等19人提案第47條之四為落實身心障礙者選擇個人協助服務之內容及方式並確保身心障礙者自立生活及社會參與所需之個人協助服務實屬各級主管機關應設置獨立監督與申訴服務機制"},{"start":20560.14,"end":20577.375,"text":"委員羅廷輝等16人提案第47條之四身心障礙者使用個人協助服務之自付額不得超過服務費用之百分之十其每月自付總額不得超過身心障礙者當月總所得之百分之十但身心障礙者"},{"start":20578.035,"end":20599.002,"text":"無每月所得者其使用個人協助服務無需付費個人協助服務實數之核定應綜合考量身心障礙者之生理及心理需求社會角色及其活動參與前項實數之核定應由身心障礙者或其決策支持者服務提供者及直轄市縣市主管機關共同決定之"},{"start":20600.042,"end":20628.348,"text":"為確保身心障礙者自主與自立 主管機關得以第二項身心障礙者需求 訂定每月最低使用時數 為確保身心障礙者自立生活之需求 各級主管機關不得以任何方式訂定個人協助使用時數之上限 身心障礙者並得主張下列各款之服務方式 一 二十四小時輪替排班至全天候支持服務 二 同一時段可由二位個人助理提供支持性服務"},{"start":20630.373,"end":20655.28,"text":"委員王一鳴等17人提案第47條之四身心障礙者得經身心障礙者團體住居所在地轄區公司立單位或個人網絡招募提供個人協助服務之個人助理以下簡稱個人助理其服務契約得由身心障礙者盡與個人助理約定之個人助理之培訓得是身心障礙者之個人需求"},{"start":20655.84,"end":20679.414,"text":"由身心障礙者身心障礙者之家屬或身心障礙團體執行培訓相關費用並得向直轄市縣市主管機關申請支付受委託辦理個人助理培訓之公司立單位其組織章程宗旨培訓課程服務督導等相關行政流程應符合身心障礙者權利公約及其一般性意見之宗旨"},{"start":20680.434,"end":20704.214,"text":"個人助理每週之服務時數如達35小時者應受全職聘用之其月薪或時薪及工作待遇不得低於長照服務人員委員范雲等17人提案第4章之2委員范雲等17人提案"},{"start":20704.963,"end":20732.593,"text":"委員羅廷偉等16人提案委員廖偉祥等19人提案委員王玉明等17人提案第四章之二張明君同社區居住委員范雲等17人提案第四七條之五為避免身心障礙者照顧或隔離於社區之外地方主管機關應提供移居之協助身心障礙者得自主選擇性居所任何人不得強迫其接受住宿式照顧服務已入住機構之身心障礙者有權自行選擇社區居住"},{"start":20733.633,"end":20760.043,"text":"主管機關應尊重身心障礙者意願主動規劃社區支持服務並應就住宿住宿室障礙住宿室照顧服務資源移轉至社區支持服務主管機關應提供轉嫌支持補助金額並應依入住機構身心障礙者之個別需求協助其返回社區居住其社區支持之服務各級主管機關應逐步落實前向社區支持服務指個人協助服務"},{"start":20760.783,"end":20787.069,"text":"交通房租房屋租賃補助同儕支持服務或其他社區支持服務委員羅廷偉等16人提案第四七條之八第一項為避免身心障礙者遭孤立或隔離於社區之外直轄市縣市主管機關應提供移居之協助第四項前二次改革籍主管機關于同范雲等17人提案"},{"start":20788.837,"end":20794.213,"text":"委員廖偉祥等19人提案 第4 七條之八同委員羅廷偉等16人提案"},{"start":20796.226,"end":20819.022,"text":"委員 王玉明等17人提案第四 七條之六身心障礙者應有自主選擇住居所之權利任何人不得強迫其接受住宿室照顧服務已入住機構之身心障礙者有權自行選擇社區居住各級住管機關應尊重身心障礙者意願依照其返回社區後之個別需求主動規劃個別社區支持服務"},{"start":20819.802,"end":20837.465,"text":"並提供轉嫌補助前向社區支持服務應包含個人協助服務無障礙交通設施及服務同儕支持服務或其他社區支持服務身心障礙者社區居住支持服務範圍運作方式及相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關定制"},{"start":20838.326,"end":20858.997,"text":"谈民众党党团提案第五十条之三,为避免身心障碍者照顾力或隔离于社区之外,主管机关应提供已居之社区支持服务,协助其在社区中生活并参与社会。身心障碍者有权自主选择其居住方式与地点,不得因其障碍身份而被迫入住机构式照顾服务。"},{"start":20859.537,"end":20887.138,"text":"已入住机构之身心障碍者亦有权选择返归社区居住主管机关应尊重身心障碍者之意愿与选择推动住宿式照顾服务资源之社区化并提供转弦支持补助一个别需求协助其衔接社区生活所称社区支持服务包含个人协助服务、交通服务、房屋租赁补助、同侪支持服务及其他足以支持其自立生活之服务"},{"start":20890.543,"end":20913.042,"text":"委員范雲等17人提案第四七條之六為使身心障礙者平等融入社會確保個人自主和自利肯認身心障礙者得自主選擇住居所各級主管機關應提供身心障礙者社區居住服務前鄉社區居住之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關定之委員羅廷偉等16人提案第四七條之九"},{"start":20915.287,"end":20938.303,"text":"第一項增列所需預算因優先編列於同范雲委員等17人提案委員廖偉翔等19人提案第四七條之九同委員羅廷偉等16人提案委員彎敏等17人提案第四七條之七會使身心障礙者平等融入社會確保個人自主和自立各級主管機關就身心障礙者社區居住支持服務之預算因優先並從寬編列"},{"start":20940.144,"end":20965.432,"text":"委員您願意請等18人提案第48條之一指向市縣市主管機關因需求評估結果辦理個人助理協助服務提供身心障礙者享有社區生活之平等權利第一項服務內容服務費用服務人員資格培訓機制辦法及服務契約中央主管機關定制第一項服務與居家照顧臨時及短期照顧等服務不得限制則依申請"},{"start":20967.092,"end":20990.795,"text":"團民眾黨黨團提案第49條申請障礙者支持服務第二項默拒並不得有涉及時間及涉及地之限制與同現行法委員何新淳等17人提案第50條增列第一項第9款同儕支持第10款個人助理服務令第一第10款改為"},{"start":20991.704,"end":21008.03,"text":"第十一款其他有關身心障礙者個人及照顧及自立生活之服務為羅廷偉等16人提案修正第九款為同儕支持服務於同縣刑法為馬文君等19人提案"},{"start":21010.058,"end":21032.117,"text":"修正第十款為文化禁用第十一款原第十款第一為第十一款委員廖偉祥等十九人提案第五十條同委員羅廷偉等十六人提案委員劉建國等十七人提案第五十條刪除原憲刑法第九款餘同憲刑法委員林月琴等十八人提案增列第十款"},{"start":21034.817,"end":21055.126,"text":"為10具服務第1第10款為第11款並增列第二項中央主管機關應制定自立生活支持服務指引為各級及各目的事業主管機關辦理本條第一項規定事項所依循於同現行法為吳麗華等18人提案"},{"start":21056.775,"end":21082.134,"text":"原第十款修改為同儕支持服務並以第十款改為其他有關身心障礙者個人協助之服務並增列第二項前項服務之提供應尊重身心障礙者之意願與選擇並依其個別需求提供適切之服務模式之下是縣市主管機關不得以任何理由限制身心障礙者選擇服務之權利台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五十條"},{"start":21084.83,"end":21101.014,"text":"修正第十款為同儕支持服務並增列第十一款個人協助服務以及第一原第十款改為第十二款同時增列第二項前項服務只提供應尊重身心障礙者之意願及選擇原料委想"},{"start":21101.84,"end":21129.146,"text":"等21人提案第50條之一為尊重身心障礙者故有尊嚴及自主性確保其有權利自立生活及融入社區中央主管機關則下是縣市主管機關因是身心障礙者實際需求尊重其意願與選擇提供個人協助服務所需經費應優先編列一身心障礙者得申請個人協助服務二身心障礙者之日常生活工作或教育有權利接受個人協助服務使其得平等參與各項社會活動"},{"start":21130.006,"end":21133.888,"text":"以提升自主性达到自立生活目标3."},{"start":21133.888,"end":21140.672,"text":"障碍者得依据其生活状况自由决定提供服务之途径、时间、地点、方式及内容4."},{"start":21140.672,"end":21151.158,"text":"个人协助服务实数核定因满足身心障碍者自主生活及社会角色需求服务实数之核定及同一时段之个人助理人数因其需求及选择安排"},{"start":21152.018,"end":21171.673,"text":"5.身心障碍者获得实数核定后可自由选择招募个人助理及服务单位6.个人协助服务自付额不得超过总服务费用5%5个人所得者或中低收入户低收入户者无需支付自付额7.不得排除使用外籍看护服务之身心障碍者申请本服务"},{"start":21173.23,"end":21187.987,"text":"為劉建國等17人提案第50條之一為尊重身心障礙者固有尊嚴及自主性保障及自立生活及融入社區直轄市縣市主管機關一需求評估結果辦理自立生活支持服務並結合各項支持服務資源提供協助"},{"start":21188.988,"end":21206.399,"text":"委員吳立華等18人提案第50條之一為促進身心障礙者平等融入社會並確保其個人自主、自力生活及社會參與各級主管機關提供充足支持性決策依其實際需求尊重其意願及選擇提供具可敬性、可用性及可負擔性之個人協助服務"},{"start":21207.259,"end":21232.039,"text":"前項個人協助服務細指提供身心障礙者於日常生活工作及社會參與中包括食衣住行娛樂等所需之人力支持使其得以與一般人平等享有生活機會提升自主性實現自立生活個人協助服務相關辦法由中央主管機關會同招目的事業主管機關並納入身心障礙團體身心障礙服務團體及相關專業團體參與訂定之"},{"start":21234.778,"end":21256.757,"text":"各级主管机关应设置独立之监督与申诉机制台湾民众党党团提案第50条之一为促进身心障碍者平等荣誉社会确保其个人自主自利生活与社会参与之权利各级主管机关应提供充分支持决策并因身心障碍者实际需求尊重其意愿与选择提供具可及性可用性及可负担性之个人协助服务"},{"start":21257.518,"end":21281.564,"text":"所稱個人協助服務系指協助身心障礙者於食衣住行、娛樂等生活層面及工作、教育、文化、政治、家庭與社會活動中得以與一般人平等參與之人力支持服務強化其自主性與生活選擇實現自力生活前項服務指示是辦法由中央主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關身心障礙者身心障礙者團體服務提供單位及相關專業團體共同研議訂定之"},{"start":21284.529,"end":21309.831,"text":"為劉建國等17人提案第51條之下是縣市主管機關因需求評估結果辦理下列服務以提高身心障礙者家庭生活品質一臨時及短期照顧者支持三照顧者訓練及研習家庭關懷方式及服務第二項改為前二條餘童現行法"},{"start":21311.653,"end":21335.313,"text":"委員吳麗華等18人提案修正第二項為第50條及前項之服務措施並改會同身心障礙團體及相關專業團體就其內容與同現行法團民眾黨黨團提案第51條第一項第三項修改為以提高身心障礙者個人與家庭生活品質同時修正第二項"},{"start":21336.454,"end":21361.097,"text":"第三行 應會同身心障礙團體 身心障礙服務團體及相關專業團體就其內容 與同現行法維羅廳委等16人提案第52條修改第6款為無障礙環境及無障礙運輸服務第9款增列住宅服務"},{"start":21363.138,"end":21390.857,"text":"與同現行法為馬文君等19人提案修正第三款公共資訊無障礙及資訊禁用第七款輔助科技設備及科技禁用第九款其他有關身心障礙者社會及文化參與與同現行法為林月琴等18人提案第52條修正第三款資訊及通訊傳播及第三項第一項第三款所稱資訊及通訊傳播"},{"start":21393.498,"end":21416.118,"text":"細指應對利用網路、電信、廣播、電視、電腦及智慧型行動裝置及默劇轉接聯絡或傳送等輔助與同現行法。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第52條修正第6款無障礙環境及無障礙運輸服務第7款增列輔具"},{"start":21418.209,"end":21428.619,"text":"並修正第四項前項補助及補助措施之內容實施方式及管理規範等事項由各中央目的事業主管機關依可及信原則定之與同現行法"},{"start":21430.322,"end":21459.649,"text":"委員何新淳等17人提案第52條之二增列第一項各級主管機關及目的事業主管機關應以通用設計原則規劃公共建築物公共設施與活動場所無障礙交通設施與運輸服務資訊通訊技術與系統網路平台及生活通信以便於各類身心障礙者使用並議員第一項修正第五行並藉由獎勵及認證措施"},{"start":21462.421,"end":21489.737,"text":"原第二項改為前項獎勵內容資格對象頓號產品或服務認證基準及其他相關事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之與同現行法委員羅廷偉等16人提案第52條之一同何欣淳委員等提案委員陳金輝等16人提案第52條之一與何欣淳等17人提案同"},{"start":21492.413,"end":21520.174,"text":"委員劉建國等17人提案第52條之一同委員何欣淳等17人提案第52條之一委員何欣淳委員林月琴等18人提案第52條之一委員吳麗華等18人提案第52條之一與委員何欣淳等17人提案第52條之一同委員王韻明等17人提案第52條之一第一項"},{"start":21522.395,"end":21546.804,"text":"各級主管機關或各級目的事業主管機關於建設公共建築物、活動場所、通訊技術、資訊系統或網路平台等設施時應以通用設計原則進行規法以使各障別之身心障礙者使用並修正原第二項前項獎勵內容資格對象頓號、產品或服務之認證標準及其他相關事項之辦法由雙目的事業主管機關定之"},{"start":21548.348,"end":21574.117,"text":"團民眾黨黨團提案第52條之一增列第一項各級主管機關及各目的事業主管機關應依通用設計原則規劃並建置公共建築物公共設施與活動場所無障礙交通設施與運輸服務資訊與通訊技術系統網路平台及生活通訊服務確保各類身心障礙者得以平等可進之方式取得服務與同現行法"},{"start":21578.072,"end":21602.273,"text":"文羅廳委等16人提案第52條之二各級政府及其附屬機關GOG學校所建置之網站及行動化應用軟體應通過第一優先等級以上之無障礙檢測並取得認證標章修正現行法第二項前項檢測標準由中央目的"},{"start":21603.453,"end":21622.25,"text":"事業主管機關定制並增列第三項專目的事業主管機關應定期辦理各級學校及其附屬機關構學校所建置之網站及行動化應用軟體取得無障礙認證標章及使用狀況之調查並公布調查結果增列第四項為鼓勵民間相關團體與機關建置之網站"},{"start":21625.413,"end":21652.16,"text":"及行動化應用軟體服務和第一項規定各目的事業主管機關得擬定計畫提供協助獎勵或補助措施維尼奧韋祥等19人提案第52條之二修正第一項各級政府機關各公法人團體各級公私立學校公營事業及政府捐助基金超過50%之財團法人與同現行法第一項"},{"start":21653.393,"end":21675.54,"text":"第二項修正為前項規定於公私利、金融服務業、大眾運輸業、通訊傳播事業、文化傳譯事業、醫療業及網路服務提供者準用之前二項之機關購公法人團體各級公私利學校事業單位及財團法人其所提供可於電腦或行動裝置平台供公眾使用之軟體應用程式應符合該作為平台之無障礙規範"},{"start":21677.32,"end":21698.928,"text":"第一项之机关购工法人团体各级公司力学校事业单位及财务团法人应禁用身心障碍之员工其非公开之网站或软体应用程式之标准准用第一项及第二项之规定第一项及第三项之检测标准方式频率与认证标章合法办法有目的事业主管机关定之"},{"start":21700.349,"end":21720.157,"text":"為寧月琴等18人提案第52條之二各級政府及其附屬機關構學校所建置之對外網站內部公務系統及行動板應用程式應具備無障礙環境認證經公開招標程序委託建置應與委託契約內要求一定規模以上之醫院金融機構"},{"start":21721.437,"end":21741.895,"text":"及网络购物服务提供业者之网站应具备无障碍环境认证前项网站系统及程式之无障碍环境认证办法由目的事业主管机关定之第二项规定医院金融机构及网络购物服务提供业者之网站之规模认定标准由各目的事业主管机关定之"},{"start":21742.961,"end":21743.041,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":21760.871,"end":21789.433,"text":"通过第一优先等级以上之无障碍检测并取得认证标章前项规定于公司立金融服务业大众运输业通讯传播事业文化创意产业医疗业及网络服务提供者准用之第一项之检测标准方式频率与认证标章合法办法有双目的事业主管机关定之为核心存等17人提案第53条运输营运者应于所服服务之路线"},{"start":21792.278,"end":21818.055,"text":"航线或区域内规划适当路线航线班次客车机船箱舱提供无障碍运输服务修正第三项第五行应设置供身心障碍者或其他实际需要者优先乘坐之博爱座其比率不低于总座位数15%并应设于临近车门"},{"start":21820.054,"end":21847.639,"text":"並修正第四項國內航空運輸業者逗號以及第五項第三項大眾運輸工具無障礙設施項目設置方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法應包括鐵路公路捷運空運及水運第六項第五項大眾運輸工具構造頓號設備限制或其他特殊情形"},{"start":21848.826,"end":21876.679,"text":"以及第七項前項改善計劃逗號與同現行法委員陳冠廷等二十人提案第三項第五行及老弱婦孺優先乘坐之博愛座及第六項大眾運輸工具之無障礙設備及設施不符合前項規定者"},{"start":21879.076,"end":21901.47,"text":"各級交通主管機關應令運輸營運者於一年內提據改善計畫於同現行法委員廖偉翔等19人提案同委員何新淳等17人提案委員劉建國等17人提案第53條第二項"},{"start":21905.141,"end":21928.37,"text":"刪除前項路線行線或區域確實確實兩個字並修正第三項第六行博愛座改為優先席於同委員何欣淳等17人提案文林月琴等18人提案第二項"},{"start":21931.311,"end":21956.263,"text":"第五行該管社政主管機關改為社政二字第三項第八行針對置車門改為逗號與同委員劉建國等17人提案委員吳麗華等18人提案同劉建國等17人提案"},{"start":21960.909,"end":21973.126,"text":"為寧願請等18人提案第54條增列第二項市區道路人行道及市區道路兩旁建築物之其了不符和前項規定者之下是縣市政府應擬定分年分期建設計畫並辦理改善"},{"start":21976.38,"end":22005.009,"text":"委定月勤等18人提案第55條修正第一項有關道路障礙之標誌標線號誌有聲號誌及識別頻率等之設施標準規定或相關規範由中央目的事業主管機關定之第二項直轄市縣市政府應依前項規定之識別頻率推動視覺功能障礙語音號誌及語音定位委員何新淳等17人提案第57條"},{"start":22006.383,"end":22032.885,"text":"第二項手具改為盾號第三項第四行增列盾號使用人第八行構造盾號設備限制及其他特殊情形第九行得由所有權人盾號使用人與同現行法委員陳金輝等16人提案委員"},{"start":22035.829,"end":22063.258,"text":"劉建國等17人提案委員吳麗華等18人提案均與委員何新淳等17人提案同為林月琴等18人提案除第一項興建公共建築物頓耗活動場所及戶外場域外其餘均與何新淳等17人提案同為劉建國等17人提案第58條修正第二項"},{"start":22065.049,"end":22087.572,"text":"第三行德改為併於同縣刑法委員林月琴等18人提案委員吳麗華等18人提案均與委員劉建國等17人提案同委員何新淳等17人提案第58條之一第一項修改為之下是縣市政府"},{"start":22089.975,"end":22117.942,"text":"並增列第二項為促進身心障礙者通行交通之便利直銷式縣市政府因依身心障礙者實際需要整合轄內各種交通服務資源發展復康巴士服務及其他交通服務措施委員陳清惠等16人提案第58條之一第二項首句改為行之便利於與委員何欣淳等17人提案同"},{"start":22121.495,"end":22134.831,"text":"委員羅美玲等16人提案委員劉建國等17人提案委員吳立華等18人提案委員王玉明等17人提案軍委委員陳慶慧等16人提案同委員林月琴等18人提案"},{"start":22138.82,"end":22164.977,"text":"第二項為促進身心障礙者行之便利直轄市縣市政府因身心障礙者實際需要整合轄內各種交通服務資源發展復康巴士服務及其他交通服務措施復康巴士載運輪椅車輛倒載沐浴車及其他附有特殊裝置專為身心障礙者使用之特殊種類車輛免徵或隨哥車輛之境外進口或車體之境外進口後於國內改裝免徵關稅"},{"start":22169.341,"end":22197.753,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第58條之一增列第二項為促進身性障礙者至交通直轄市縣市政府主管機關因身性障礙者實際需要整合轄內各種交通服務資源發展復康巴士服務及其他交通服務措施予以委員陳靜惠等16人提案同委員您願請等18人提案第59條修正第一項第三行"},{"start":22199.729,"end":22227.715,"text":"場所頓號文教頓號體育或運動設施予以現行法同文科資源等17人提案第60條之一第一項第二行增列中央教育頓號教育頓號三字第二項手具改為生活技能頓號定向行動及相關各項評估及訓練"},{"start":22229.192,"end":22245.223,"text":"以及莫具中央教育頓豪及修正第三項中華民國一百年一月十日修正之第二項自公佈後二年施行與同現行法"},{"start":22247.578,"end":22269.078,"text":"為寧願請等18人提案第60條之二中央主管機關針對燒燙傷及集水損傷尚未符合法定身心障礙標準者應提供生活重建服務前項服務之內容補助及相關辦法由中央主管機關定之為何欣淳等17人提案第61條第一項增列及同步聽達"},{"start":22270.834,"end":22289.386,"text":"第二項修正第二行之相關規定與同現行法委員陳金輝等16人提案第61條第一項莫具提供其社會參與所需之服務並修正第"},{"start":22290.886,"end":22315.709,"text":"增列第三項中央主管機關應會同各直轄市縣市政府設立手語翻譯視訊同步聽達等服務之行政支持網絡並依據各直轄市縣市之實際現況及需求整合及妥善分配相關資源必要時應編列經費補助之其支持網絡之聯繫與運用方式之辦法由主管機關定之與同縣刑法委員劉建國等17人提案"},{"start":22318.066,"end":22345.615,"text":"委員林月琴等18人提案與委員何欣淳等17人提案同委員吳麗華等18人提案第一項依聽覺或語言功能障礙者及其他因障礙而有資訊傳遞之實際需求修正第一項外與同現行法委員台灣民眾黨黨團提案第61條第一項"},{"start":22349.867,"end":22378.692,"text":"修正第四項或其他有資訊傳遞障礙者實際需求與同現行法為劉建國等17人提案第63條增列第三項前項但書第二款鎖定補助不包括配合國家重要政策辦理符合中央主管機關指定或公告身心障礙福利政策之項目及基準者並修正第四項第一項機構位於第二項序言"},{"start":22381.892,"end":22399.024,"text":"部分其餘與現行法通委員林月琴等18人提案委員吳麗華等18人提案同委員劉建國等17人提案委員陳金輝等16人提案第63條之一申請障礙福利"},{"start":22402.369,"end":22423.684,"text":"機構應致院長瓜胡主任一人並為專任對其業務副執行及督導之責有下列各款情形之一者終生不得擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任修正第二項"},{"start":22427.577,"end":22454.451,"text":"一 第一款 陳犯性侵害犯罪防治法第二條第一項之罪性騷擾防治法第二十五條第一項之罪兒童及少年性交易防治條例之罪兒童及少年性剝削防治條例之罪 經緩起訴處分或有罪判決確定二 陳犯毒品危害防治條例或組織犯罪防治條例之罪 經有罪判決確定三 陳犯殺人重傷"},{"start":22456.134,"end":22462.589,"text":"強盜擄人勒索或其他相類暴力之犯罪經有罪判決確定者是"},{"start":22464.72,"end":22490.008,"text":"陳犯詐欺 被侵佔或貪污罪 經判處有其徒刑以上之刑確定但受緩刑宣告或一科罰金執行完畢者不在此限五 性侵害犯罪防治法 所定性侵害犯罪之行為六 性騷擾性霸凌行為 情節重大七 第75條各款行為之一 兒童及少年福利與權益保障法第49條 第1項各款行為之一"},{"start":22490.928,"end":22517.706,"text":"不違反兒童及少年性剝削防治條例之行為情節重大其他違反保障身心障礙者權益有關之法律強制或禁止規定有嚴重損害身心障礙者權益之餘委員羅美玲等16人提案第63條之一第二項守據去主任瓜胡兩個字"},{"start":22522.847,"end":22537.876,"text":"余與陳金輝委員等16人提案同為劉建國等17人提案第63條之一確調陳金輝委員第8款並修正第8款為"},{"start":22539.164,"end":22555.314,"text":"第75條各款行為之一兒童及少年福利與權益保障法第49條第一項各款行為之一或違反兒童及少年性剝削防治條例之行為情節重大經有關機關調查署時與同委員陳清惠等16人提案"},{"start":22559.622,"end":22584.991,"text":"委員您願意請等18號人提案第63條之一修正第二項第一款懲犯性侵害犯罪防治法第二條第一項第一款之罪性騷擾防治法第25條第一項之罪刑法妨礙性隱私及不實性隱相罪兒童及少年交易防治條例之罪兒童及少年性剝削防治條例之罪經緩起訴處分或有罪判決確定"},{"start":22588.124,"end":22612.473,"text":"並去除委員陳金輝等第八款其餘同委員陳金輝等16人提案委員吳立華等18人提案修正第七款第75條各款行為之一兒童及少年福利權益保障法第49條第1項各款行為之一或違反兒童及少年性剝削防治條例之行為情節重大經有關機關調查屬實與委員劉建國等17人提案同"},{"start":22620.484,"end":22621.835,"text":"為王玉敏的17人提案"},{"start":22623.322,"end":22652.191,"text":"第二項 第五款經執行事縣市主管機關調查認定有性侵害行為屬實第六款經執行事縣市主管機關調查認定有性騷擾或性霸凌行為屬實期受兒童及少年性交易防治條例或兒童及少年性剝削防治條例規定處罰或受性騷擾防治法第25條或第27條規定處罰經執行事縣市主管機關認定有終身不得擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任之必要"},{"start":22653.551,"end":22681.907,"text":"經直轄市縣市主管機關給兒童及少年福利與權益保障法第97條規定處罰並認定有終身不得擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任之必要久知悉服務之身心障礙福利機構發生疑似性侵害事件違法通報直轄市縣市主管機關自再度發生機構內性侵害事件會變造湮滅或隱匿他人所犯身心障礙福利機構內性侵害事件之證據經各級主管機關查證屬實"},{"start":22683.929,"end":22697.803,"text":"有第七十五條各款行為之一金志祥是縣市主管機關認定有終身不得擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任之必要與委員陳金輝等十六人提案同為陳金輝等十六人提案第六十三條之二"},{"start":22699.4,"end":22728.48,"text":"有下列各款情形之一者予一定期间内部的担任身心障碍福利机构之院长主任一 非属情节重大之性骚扰性霸凌行为二 非属情节重大之第75条各款行为之一儿童及少年福利与权益保障法第49条递箱各款行为之一或违反儿童及少年性剥削防止条例之行为三 惩犯家庭暴力罪金环起诉处分或有罪判决确定之日起五年内"},{"start":22729.381,"end":22755.809,"text":"四 有客觀事實 主任有傷害身心障礙者之餘經主管機關認定不能執行職務五 其他違反保障身心障礙者權益有關之法律強制或禁止規定有損害身心障礙者權益之餘有前向第一款 第二款 第四款或第五款之情形者不得擔任身心障礙福利機構院長主任之期間由主管機關審酌情節嚴重程度認定一年至十年"},{"start":22756.707,"end":22766.465,"text":"第1項第4款至原因消失後仍得依本法規定擔任身心障礙福利機構至院長主任不受前項主管機關認定期間之限制"},{"start":22772.08,"end":22797.152,"text":"委員羅美玲等16人提案同委員陳慶輝等16人提案委員劉建國等17人提案增列第一項第三款懲犯家庭暴力罪驚患起訴處分有罪判決確定之日期五年內修正第四款其他違反保障身心障礙者權益有關之法律強制或禁止規定有損害身心障礙權益之餘者經有關機關調查屬實"},{"start":22799.913,"end":22825.357,"text":"並修正第二項有錢相剋款情形之一者由主管機關審酌情節嚴重程度認定其一年至十年不得擔任身心障礙福利機構院長文林月琴等18人提案第六三條之二修正第三款懲犯家庭暴力罪金環起訴處分或有罪確定"},{"start":22829.236,"end":22836.865,"text":"並去掉第五款及第三項予以委員陳金輝等16人提案同委員吳麗華等18人提案"},{"start":22838.922,"end":22866.788,"text":"第二項修正有前項第一款第二款及第四款情形之意者與主管機關審酌情節嚴重程度認定其一年至十年不得擔任身心障礙福利機構院長主任與委員劉建國等十七人提案同委員王玉敏等十七人提案第六十三條之二有前條第七款第八款或第十款情形之意者這項是縣市主管機關應認定其一年至十年不得擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任"},{"start":22868.786,"end":22889.042,"text":"委員陳金輝等16人提案第63條之三有第63條之一第二項第一款至第三款第五款至第八款情形之一者得終身不得擔任身心障礙福利機構之工作人員有前條第一項各款情形之一者於一定期間內不得擔任身心障礙福利機構之工作人員"},{"start":22889.762,"end":22918.054,"text":"有前條第一項第一款第二款第四款或第五款之情形者不得擔任身心障礙福利機構工作人員之期經由主管機關審酌情節嚴重程度認定一年至十年前條第一項第四款之原因消失後仍得依本法規定擔任身心障礙福利機構之工作人員不受前項主管機關認定期間之限制委員羅美玲等16人提案第63條之3"},{"start":22921.574,"end":22947.111,"text":"與委員陳清惠的16人提案同委員劉建國的17人提案第63條之三修正第三項有前條第一項各款情形之一者由主管機關審酌情結嚴重程度認定其一年至十年不得擔任身心障礙福利機構工作人員與委員劉美玲的16人提案同委員林月琴等18人提案"},{"start":22948.7,"end":22965.52,"text":"第六三條第三有客觀事實主任有傷害身心障礙者之餘經主管機關認定不能執行職務者不得擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任及工作人員前項原因消失後經主管機關認定得依本法規定擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任及工作人員"},{"start":22967.54,"end":22989.046,"text":"委員吳麗華等18人提案第63條之三修正第三項有前條第一項第一款第二款及第四款情形之一者由主管機關省做情節嚴重程度認定其一年至十年不得擔任身心障礙福利機構工作人員與委員陳金輝等16人提案同委員王玉明等17人提案"},{"start":22990.126,"end":23019.377,"text":"第一項與委員陳金輝等16人提案同第二項修正有第六三條之一第七款第八款或第十款情形之一者之下是縣市主管機關認定其一年至十年不得擔任身心障礙福利機構工作人員委陳金輝等16人提案第六三條之四限職院長主任或工作人員六三條之一第二項第六三條之二第一項前條第一項或第二項規定情勢之一者身心障礙福利機構應及停止其職務"},{"start":23020.646,"end":23045.611,"text":"並依相關規定於調職免職撤銷任用資遣令期退休或終止勞動契約委員羅銘林等16人提案第六三條之四有客觀事實主任有傷害身心障礙者之於金主管機關認定不能執行職務者不得擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任及工作人員前項原因消失後金主管機關認定"},{"start":23046.872,"end":23057.235,"text":"仍得依本法規定擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任及工作人員為劉建國等17人提案為吳麗華等18人提案與委員羅美玲等"},{"start":23058.318,"end":23084.465,"text":"16人提案同為林月琴等18人提案第63條之四限職院長主任有第63條之一第二項第63條之二第一項前條第一項或限職工作人員有前條第一項規定勤事之一者身心障礙福利機構應及停止其職務並依相關規定予以調職免職撤銷任用資遣令其退休或終止勞動契約為王玉明等17人提案第63條之四"},{"start":23085.805,"end":23111.843,"text":"有客觀事實主任有傷害身心障礙者之餘經執霞市縣市主管機關認定不能執行職務者不得擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任及工作人員錢香雲消失後經執霞市縣市主管機關認定人得依本法規定擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任及工作人員第一項之認定應由執霞市縣市主管機關應邀集相關專科醫師兒童福利及其他相關學者專家組成小組為之"},{"start":23114.639,"end":23143.407,"text":"委員陳建輝等16人提案身心障礙福利機構之院長主任或工作人員有第63條之一第二項第五款之第八款或第63條之二第一項第一款第二款第四款第五款規定之事實情節輕重終身或一定期間不得擔任職務之審任由主管機關邀請法律身心障礙福利或其他相關學者專家組成小組為之"},{"start":23147.021,"end":23164.622,"text":"為諾美林等16人提案第6條3至5限職院長、主任或工作人員第6條3至1、第2項、第6條3至2、第1項、第6條3至3、第1項、第2項或前條第1項規定勤事之一者申請障礙福利及公益及停止其職務並依相關規定與調職免職撤銷任用之前令其退休或終止勞動契約"},{"start":23167.728,"end":23196.477,"text":"委員劉建國等17人提案第63條之五院長主任或工作人員第63條之一第二項第63條之二第一項第63條之三第一項第二項或前條第一項規定侵蝕之一者身心障礙福利機構應急停止其職務並依相關規定於調職免職撤銷任用資錢令其退休或終止勞動契約院長主任或工作人員設有第63條之一第二項第63條之二第一項第63條之三第一項第二項或前條第一項情形於調查期間身心障礙福利機構應予"},{"start":23198.197,"end":23223.007,"text":"暫時停止契約執行或停止運用關係前項情形與原因消滅後復職者未發己之薪資因依相關規定與補發適用公務人員相關法律者其停職己原因消滅後復職本奉年公奉之補發依各該法律規定辦理委員吳麗華等18人提案第63條支付於委員劉建國等17人提案同"},{"start":23224.884,"end":23238.035,"text":"為您願意請等18人提案第63條之五身心障礙福利機構之院長主任由第63條之一第二項第五款之第八款第63條之二第一項第一款第二款第四款或第63條"},{"start":23239.881,"end":23255.838,"text":"第三 工作人員有第六三條之三之事實情節輕重終身或已定期間或原因消失前不得擔任局務之審任及原因消失之任定義由主管機關邀集法律身心障礙者福利醫學社會工作及其他相關學者專家組成小組為之"},{"start":23258.308,"end":23274.185,"text":"委員王玉明等17人提案第63條之五限職院長主任或工作人員有第63條之一第二項第63條之二或前條第一項規定情勢之一者身心障礙福利機構應急停止其職務並依相關規定於調職免職撤銷任用資遣令其退伍或終止勞動契約"},{"start":23276.55,"end":23297.313,"text":"文成经会等16人提案第63条之六主管机关应主动查证身心障碍福利机构之院长主任有第63条之一第二项及第63条之二第一项规定情势身心障碍福利机构聘雇工作人员前得请其提供最近三个月内核发之警察刑事记录证明书或主动向相关机关查询"},{"start":23298.394,"end":23312.732,"text":"受請求查詢機關應協助查附第六三條之一第二項第六三條之二第一項第六三條之三第一項及第二項規定不適任資格之審認資訊收集處理利用查詢及其他相關事項是辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":23314.282,"end":23340.654,"text":"問羅美玲等16人提案第63條之六身心障礙福利機構之院長主任或工作人員有無第63條之一第二項第五款制第七款或第63條之二第一項各款或63條之四規定之事實情節輕重終身一定期間或原因消失前不得擔任職務之審任由主管機關邀請法律身心障礙福利及其他相關學者專家組成小組為之"},{"start":23343.98,"end":23368.375,"text":"為劉建國等17人提案第63條之六第三行少了吳志裕委員羅美玲等16人提案通為林月琴等18人提案第63條之六第一項第四行改為項頓號或第63條之三第一項規定情勢少"},{"start":23369.724,"end":23376.083,"text":"第二項俞宇 委員陳金輝等16人提案 同委員吳麗華等18人提案"},{"start":23379.329,"end":23401.808,"text":"第六三條之六身心障礙福利機構之院長主任或工作人員第六三條之一第二項第五款之第七款第六三條之二第一項第一款第二款及第四款或第六三條之四規定之事實情節輕重終身一定期間或雲消失前部的擔任職務之認定由主管機關邀請法律身心障礙福利及其他相關學者專家組成小組為之"},{"start":23404.54,"end":23421.05,"text":"為王玉敏等17人提案第63條之六申請障礙福利機構之院長主任或工作人員有第63條之一第二項第63條之二及第63條之四第一項鎖定情形者之下是縣市主管機關依規定辦理通報資訊之查詢搜集處理及利用"},{"start":23421.81,"end":23447.115,"text":"身心障碍福利机构申请设立许可时之下是县市主管机关依查询院长主任有第63条之一第二项第63条之二及第63条之四第一项规定情形院长主任异动时异同身心障碍福利机构聘雇院长主任或工作人员前因查询其有第63条之一第二项第63条之二及第63条之四第一项规定情形已聘雇者应定其查询"},{"start":23448.487,"end":23472.8,"text":"申請障礙福利機構於聘僱院長主任或工作人員前應檢據相關名冊資格證明文件引本且結書健康檢查表引本最近三個月內核發之警察刑事記錄證明書及其他由中央主管機關公告之基本資料文件報直轄市縣市主管機關核准該等人員有聘僱以外之異動時應於14日內報直轄市縣市主管機關被查直轄市縣市主管機關應主動查證並派員檢查"},{"start":23477.582,"end":23504.671,"text":"這項是縣市主管機關為辦理第二項或第三項之查詢得使用依兒童及少年福利與權益保障法兒童幼兒教育及照顧法教保服務人員條例教師法補習及進修教育法性別平等教育法建立之資料庫請五項規定之通報資訊搜集聘僱前及聘僱期間之查詢處理利用及其他相關事項之辦法由商務主管機關定之"},{"start":23506.447,"end":23530.262,"text":"為諾魅林等16人提案第63條之7主管機關應主動查證身心障礙福利機構之院長主任由第63條之1、第2項、第63條之2、第1項及第63條之4、第1項規定情勢身心障礙福利機構評估工作人員潛得請其提供最近3個月內合法則警察刑事記錄證明書或主動向相關機關查詢受請求查詢機關應協助查附"},{"start":23531.584,"end":23550.209,"text":"第63條之一第二項第63條之二第一項第63條之三第一項第二項及第63條之四第一項規定不適任資格之審任資訊收集處理利用查詢及其他相關事項之辦法由庄主管機關定之為劉建國等17人提案"},{"start":23552.116,"end":23574.291,"text":"第63條之七與委員朵美玲等16人提案第63條之七同委員吳麗華等18人提案第63條之七增列第三項主管機關對身心障礙福利機構聘僱院長主任應主動查證有無立項規定之情事與委員劉建國等17人提案同委員范雲等17人提案第71條"},{"start":23578.24,"end":23602.118,"text":"第一項第四行增列或實務補助並增列第八款生理用品補助第一原第八款為第九款並修正其他必要之救助及服務予以現行法同委員何欣淳等17人提案第71條"},{"start":23604.52,"end":23622.519,"text":"第三項修正為第一項第五款所訂付據費用補助金額應定其檢討並修正第五項不符合勤領資格而領取補助者由直轄市縣市主管機關以書面行政處分命本人或其法定計程自事時發生之日其六十日內繳還與同現行法"},{"start":23626.509,"end":23654.56,"text":"委員黃婕等17人提案第71條修正第8款為月經生理用品費用補助並原第8款為第9款予以現行法同委員廖偉翔等19人提案修正第9款其他必要費用或實務補助予以現行法同委員陳金輝等16人提案與委員何欣淳等17人提案同委員陳俊宇等18人提案"},{"start":23657.267,"end":23673.632,"text":"增列第四項關於經費申請資格條件程序補助金額及其他相關事項執辦法要莊主管機關及莊目的事業主管機關以每年定期檢討予以委員核心存同委員林楚英等17人提案"},{"start":23679.311,"end":23705.873,"text":"增列第八款女性生理用品費用補助並以原第八款改為第九款予以現行法同為劉建國的17人提案修正第二項第五行並於每年定期召開會議依據當年度經濟指數等數據進行檢討予以現行法同為原邱若驊等"},{"start":23707.576,"end":23725.597,"text":"17人提案第71條增列第五項關於經費申請資格條件程序補助金額及其他相關事項這辦法中央主管機關及中央目的事業主管機關每年定期檢討與現行法同委員林月琴等18人提案第71條"},{"start":23728.863,"end":23747.155,"text":"修正第四項第一項第五款所定輔具費用補助應由輔助科技費用補助審議委員會定期檢討其補助項目應參採需求評估之結果不受障礙等級類別年齡之限制補助金額應參考市場價格為調整"},{"start":23750.137,"end":23769.872,"text":"第四項 輔助科技費用補助審議委員會應由主管機關邀請身心障礙者代表 學者專家 民間相關機構團體代表及產業代表組成與現行法同委員吳麗華等18人提案第71條增列第五款 個人協助服務費用補助並遞移原個款"},{"start":23776.889,"end":23799.909,"text":"同時增列第四項第一項第五款鎖定輔具費用補助之項目及金額應定期檢討不符合勤領資格而領取補助者由直轄市縣市主管機關以書面行政處分通知本人或其法定計程自事實發生之日其六十日內返還予以現行法同委員王玉明等17人提案第71條"},{"start":23802.037,"end":23829.817,"text":"修正第八款為生理用品補助並第一元第八款改為第九款其他必要之費用或食物補助予以現行法同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第七十一條修正第一項直轄市縣市主管機關之第四行並不得有涉及時間或涉及地之限制同時修正第八款為個人協助服務費用補助並第一元第八款改為第九款"},{"start":23831.129,"end":23838.683,"text":"修正第二項第五行依可及性原則定之予以現行法同"},{"start":23844.747,"end":23868.315,"text":"為寧願請等18人提案第71條之二第71條第一項第五款輔具費用補助之輔具因為身心障礙者與醫療復健自力生活照顧及其他特殊需求使用之輔具前項補助經費各屬不同來源者主管機關應制定辦法以統籌各目的事業主管機關各自業管之經費依據個人需求評估結果給付"},{"start":23871.56,"end":23895.721,"text":"違核心存等17人提案第74條修正現行法傳播二字改為宣傳品出版品廣播電視網際網路或其他第二項現行法第4行傳播原傳播同步改為宣傳品出版品廣播電視網際網路或其他與現行法同"},{"start":23898.665,"end":23925.821,"text":"委員羅廷偉等16人提案第74條第一項公職人員民意代表參選人公民投票提案人傳播媒體或個人不得於行使職權執行職務報導節目或其他公開活動中以言辭文書文宣刊登廣告廣播電視網際網路或其他傳播方式對身心障礙者或疑似身心障礙者使用歧視性質稱呼或描述"},{"start":23926.704,"end":23946.273,"text":"同時修正並不得由於事實不符或誤導他人對身心障礙者產生歧視或偏見之言論散佈修正第二項第五行公職人員名義代表候選公民投票提案人傳播媒體或個人不得已"},{"start":23946.778,"end":23965.797,"text":"前項方式將事件發生原因歸咎於當事人之疾病或其身心障礙狀況同時增列第三項身心障礙者之配偶三親等內之親屬共同生活之親屬家長家屬或監護人因前二項情形遭逢連帶歧視者前二項之行為人亦應負責"},{"start":23968.635,"end":23987.649,"text":"委員廖偉祥等19人提案第74條與委員樓庭偉等16人提案同委員陳金輝等16人提案第74條與委員何欣淳等17人提案同委員劉建國等17人提案第74條第一項與委員何欣淳同第二項"},{"start":23990.322,"end":24019.782,"text":"第二项,身心障碍者涉及相关法律事件未经法院判决确定认定,其原因者宣传品、出版品、广播、电视、网际网络或其他媒体于报导该事件时不得归因于当事人之疾病或其身心障碍状况。委员林月琴等18人提案第74条,增列第三项任何人不得于公开之言论歧视身心障碍者,予以委员何星成等17人提案同。"},{"start":24023,"end":24038.252,"text":"委員吳立華等18人提案第74條增列第三項為任何人對身心障礙者不得公開為歧視之言行欲委員何新泉等17人提案同委員王玉敏等17人提案增列第三項"},{"start":24042.577,"end":24059.685,"text":"任何人不得以公開之言論歧視身心障礙者予以委員和心存的實現提案同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第74條宣傳品出版品廣播電視網際網路或其他媒體與報導或播送涉及身心障礙者或疑似身心障礙者之內容時"},{"start":24065.242,"end":24092.618,"text":"予以現行法通第二項修正第三行宣傳品出版品廣播電視網際網路或其他媒體與報導該事件時予以現行法通委員何欣淳等17人提案第76條增列第4項身心障礙福利機構發現其所收容安置之身心障礙者有前條各款情形之一者應立即向直轄市縣市主管機關通報致詞不得超過24小時"},{"start":24095.014,"end":24114.34,"text":"委員陳靜惠等16人提案委員林月琴等18人提案委員劉建國等17人提案委員吳麗華等18人提案均與委員何欣淳等17人提案同委員何欣淳等17人提案第77條第二項"},{"start":24117.93,"end":24137.181,"text":"改為前項安置所需之費用並增列第三項第一項安置所需之費用由直轄市縣市主管機關先行電付者得減去費用單據影本計算書及得減輕或免除之申請程序以書面行政處分通知身心障礙者或撫養義務人與書面通知送達後六十日內返還"},{"start":24138.402,"end":24165.405,"text":"有下列情形之一者直轄市縣市主管機關得予以減輕或免除安置所需之費用醫生性障礙者或撫養醫務人因生活陷於困境無力負擔二撫養醫務人有錢款以外之特殊事由未能負擔增列第五項直轄市縣市主管機關認定前項各款情形新有困難者應邀請學者專家及民間團體代表審查之與同現行法"},{"start":24167.523,"end":24195.189,"text":"委員 劉建國等17人提案第77條身心障礙者有下的情形之一至有生命身體之為難或生活陷於困境之餘者之下是縣市主管機關得依本人撫養義務人之申請或依職權予以保護安置或為其他必要之處置必要時得緊急安置依法令或契約對身心障礙者有撫養義務之人喪失撫養能力二遭受第75條課款情形之一者"},{"start":24196.857,"end":24221.132,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關為緊急保護、安置或為其他必要之處致使得請求檢察官或當地警察機關協助第一項安置服務得委託相關身心障礙福利機構辦理身心障礙者對違反第75條規定之行為人提出告訴或提起民事損害賠償訴訟時直轄市縣市主管機關應協助之"},{"start":24222.372,"end":24246.786,"text":"委員林月琴等18人提案第77條同委員何清純等17人提案委員吳麗華等18人提案第77條同委員劉建國等17人提案委員劉建國等17人提案第78條刪除原現行法第78條委員林月琴等18人提案第78條修正第一項第6項為"},{"start":24249.336,"end":24263.491,"text":"縣市主管機關因已先保護安置後調查原則欲現行法同為吳麗華等18人提案第78條刪除現行法為何欣淳等17人提案第79條"},{"start":24265.615,"end":24283.738,"text":"修正第二項第四行為以書面行政處分通知前條第一項之行為仍於六十日內返還並刪除原第三項予以現行法同為劉建國等十七人提案第七十九條第七十七條第一項安置緊急安置第八十條"},{"start":24284.659,"end":24313.638,"text":"第一项继续安置所需费用除直辖市县市主管机关第71条第一项第二款,给予补助者外,由身心障碍者抚养义务人或第75条各款情形之余之行为人负担。身心障碍者或抚养义务人有下列情形之余者直辖市县市主管机关得予以减轻或免除负担前项费用。一,因生活陷于困境无力负担。二,有钱款以外之特殊事由至未能负担。"},{"start":24314.719,"end":24327.477,"text":"第一项费用直辖市县市主管机关先行垫付者直辖市县市主管机关得减拒费用单拒影本计算书及前项负担义务人得申请减轻或免除负担"},{"start":24329.4,"end":24353.548,"text":"程序相关规定以书面行政处分通知医务人于60日内返还前项费用返还之程序得减轻或免除之条件及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关定之之下事项是主管机关认定第二项各款情形信用困难者应邀集学者专家及机构法人或团体代表审查之委员林月琴的18人提案第79条"},{"start":24356.588,"end":24381.076,"text":"與委員何欣淳等17人提案同委員吳麗華等18人提案第79條將委員劉建國第二項第5款調至第3款並刪除第4款將原第3款調至第4款與委員劉建國等17人提案同委員劉建國等17人提案第80條"},{"start":24386.944,"end":24406.703,"text":"現行法第1項第77條第一項緊急安置不得超過72小時非超過72小時之緊急安置修改為超過72小時之緊急安置予以現行法通委員吳麗華等18人提案第80條與委員劉建國等80條通"},{"start":24413.649,"end":24440.244,"text":"委員羅廷偉等16人提案及委員廖偉祥等19人提案第七章之一章名均為請求全基礎委員羅廷偉等16人提案第83條之一身心障礙者對於受本法身權公約及其他法令保障之權利遭受侵害無法或難以實施者得請求排除之有侵害之餘者得請求防止之如致其權利遭受損害者並得請求損害賠償"},{"start":24441.164,"end":24463.155,"text":"但损害因天灾事变或其他不可抗力所致者不在此先政府机关构其他公法人团体其他私人团体或个人因待遇执行职务或未进行合理调整至前项权利受损者准用前项之规定被害人虽非财产上之损害亦得请求赔偿相当之尽而其名誉被侵害者并得请求维护"},{"start":24463.915,"end":24492.312,"text":"回復名譽之時當處分前項請求權不得讓予或繼承但已經過賠償之請求權已依契約承諾或已起訴或提付仲裁者不在此限委員羅廷偉等16人提案第83條之二損害賠償被害人得依下列規定則依請求如被害人依第85條之36規定提起訴訟非送"},{"start":24493.934,"end":24519.414,"text":"宿外解决途径仲裁行政事件之申请或救济或其他法律程序事件者其律师报仇得一并请求依民法第216条之规定请求但被害人不能证明其损害时得以其行使权利依通常情形可得予其之利益减除被侵害后行使同一权利所得利益之差额为其所"},{"start":24520.709,"end":24540.352,"text":"受损害二请求侵害人因侵害行为所得之利益但侵害人不能证明其成本或必要费用时以其侵害行为所得之全部收入或为其所得利益三以未造成其事前可得预期结果可获之利益为所失利益"},{"start":24541.67,"end":24560.636,"text":"以其未達成此項結果所費之勞力、時間及其他費用為所受損害次因欠缺無障礙或為進行合理調整而未能達成之利益為所失利益其因此所費之勞力、時間及其他費用"},{"start":24561.776,"end":24587.525,"text":"為所受損害侵害人因違反第16條第1項或第74條之規定致被害人受有損害如因故意所致者被害人得請求損害額五倍以下之懲罰性賠償金如因重大過失所致者得請求三倍以下之懲罰性賠償金依第1項規定被害人不義或不能證明其實際損害而得請求法院或仲裁機構庭醫"},{"start":24589.326,"end":24607.177,"text":"侵害情節在新台幣10萬元以上500萬元以下著定賠償額如損害行為屬前項重大過失者賠償額最高得增至新台幣1500萬元如損害行為屬前項故意者賠償額最高得增至新台幣2500萬元"},{"start":24609.378,"end":24625.465,"text":"委員羅廷偉等16人提案第83條之3依第83條之1請求10對於未建置或改善之無障礙或未進行合理調整之環境交通資訊通訊傳播設計或服務的請求改善建置個人協助服務或其他必要之處置"},{"start":24626.482,"end":24647.87,"text":"委託聽委等16人提案第83條之四被害人得請求由侵害人負擔費用將判決或仲裁判斷書內容全部或一併登載新聞紙雜誌委託聽委等16人提案第83條之五被害人於市民第16條第一項或第74條之事實後侵害人應就無歧視之內容負舉證責任"},{"start":24649.31,"end":24664.152,"text":"維多廷委等16人提案 禮拜三條之六 損害賠償請求全人只有損害及賠償義務人時期因二年間不行使而消滅 自損害發生時期與使年者一同"},{"start":24666.383,"end":24685.929,"text":"委託聽委等16人提案第83條之七身心障礙者之配有三親等內之親屬共同生活之親屬家長家屬或監護人遭逢第16條第5項第74條第3項之連帶歧視者得向親愛人主張權利其主張權利之內容準用第83條之一至第83條之六之規定"},{"start":24687.065,"end":24711.829,"text":"委員羅廷偉等16人提案第8三條之八身心障礙者與相對人間進行締約如違反本法或身權公約之規定者都要求締約或請求增減其對價相對人非有正當理由不得拒絕如致其權利遭受損害者並得請求損害賠償前項規定於履約時準用之第8三條之一至第8三條之五之規定於前二項情形準用之"},{"start":24713.206,"end":24741.174,"text":"委員羅廷偉等16人提案第83條之9依本章主張權利除有特別規定外政府機關構或其他公法人團體適用國家賠償法行政訴訟法第7條第8條之規定其他私人團體或個人適用民法之規定委員羅廷偉等16人提案第7章之2禁用司法及其他救濟之保護委員范雲等17人提案第84條"},{"start":24744.195,"end":24765.925,"text":"第一項修正為法院檢查機關或檢查機關於訴訟或偵查程序實施過程身心障礙者射送或需作證或接受調查時應確保環境資訊及服務之可即興使身心障礙者能及時取得法律資訊並依身心障礙者之請求或職權提供適齡"},{"start":24767.806,"end":24787.62,"text":"與程序調整以及法律輔助等其他必要之協助增列第二項前項程序調整及必要協助措施之辦法因廣泛徵詢身心障礙者及其代表性團體之意見後由行政院會同司法院定之現行第二項"},{"start":24790.026,"end":24801.895,"text":"修正增列莫具為精神障礙者精神障礙或智能障礙者涉及本行三年以上之罪時警察詢問及檢察官詢問應有律師陪同"},{"start":24804.943,"end":24823.4,"text":"同时,增列第五项为确保身心障碍者平等金融司法第一项机关所属司法及警察人员定期接受包含身心障碍权利及障碍意识等相关训练予以现行法通。闻罗厅卫等16人提案第84条法院检查机关。"},{"start":24824.421,"end":24850.777,"text":"司法、警察官、仲裁、机构、庭、行政机关各其他公法人、团体或其他依法令得受理审理程序之团体于受理、诉讼、非送、侦查、宿外解决途径仲裁行政事件之申请或救济程序或其他法律程序实施过程身心障碍者为法官、检察官、司法、警察官、仲裁人、调解人其他法律程序事件"},{"start":24853.275,"end":24867.688,"text":"審理人、當事人、參加人、告訴人、代理人、辯護人、輔佐人、程序監理人、陪同人、證人、鑑定人、同意或其他程序參與人者應就其障礙類別之特別需要進行程序調整或提供必要之協助"},{"start":24868.749,"end":24895.766,"text":"前項所稱訴訟、指名式訴訟、家事訴訟、刑事訴訟、少年事件之調查及審理行政訴訟、公務員承接審理程序、憲法訴訟及其他法律所定之訴訟程序第一項所稱非送、指名式訴訟法、行政訴訟法、非送事件法、家事事件法、破產法、消費者債務清理條例、提存法、公證法、強制執行法或其他法律所定法院"},{"start":24896.446,"end":24910.499,"text":"或民间公正事务所执掌之非送诉讼程序。第一项所称,宿外解决途径指依法进行和解、调解、调处、协商、协调或其他法律所定之处理程序。"},{"start":24911.68,"end":24933.471,"text":"第一项所称行政事件之申请或救济程序,指依法申请做成行政处分或依法提起申诉再申诉、申付复审、争议处理、裁决复查异议、诉议或其他行政救济程序。第一项所称程序调整或提供必要之协助适用第84条之1至84条之8规定。"},{"start":24939.096,"end":24940.52,"text":"團民眾黨黨團提案第84條"},{"start":24942.783,"end":24967.303,"text":"為確保身心障礙者平等禁用司法、法院或檢查機關與訴訟程序實施過程身心障礙者涉訟或需作證時應就其障礙類型與需求提供資訊設施及程序等必要值合理調整與支援服務包括資訊無障礙法律文件簡化、溝通輔具、手語翻譯以保障其程序參與權與訴訟能力"},{"start":24970.345,"end":24989.93,"text":"中央主管機關應會同司法院法務部等相關機關及身心障礙團體就司法人員訓練申訴管道服務品質監督及訴訟協助方式訂定施行辦法或相關配套機制並遞原第二項第三項予以現行法同"},{"start":24994.212,"end":25016.443,"text":"委員羅廷偉等16人提案第84條之一當事人告訴人或參加人因神經系統構造及精神心智功能損傷或不全無法維完權之陳述時法院檢察機關司法警察官仲裁機構庭行政機關及其他公法人團體或其他依法令得受理審理程序之團體應准其"},{"start":25017.583,"end":25036.796,"text":"法定代理人配有職系或三親等內旁系血親、家長、家屬、醫師、心理師、學校、教師、輔導人員、社工人員或其他人員可於程序進行中擔任輔佐人並得陳述意見依民事訴訟法、刑事訴訟法、行政訴訟法或其他法律得為輔佐人之人"},{"start":25037.757,"end":25066.629,"text":"未能担任辅助人时社会福利机构团体得依前项规定下指向市县市主管机关医院学校或其他相当之机关团体提出指派申请台湾民众党党团体案第八四条之一行政机关于身心障碍者涉及至各类行政程序包含申请审查、裁处、溯愿及其他行政纠集程序时因其障碍类别与实际需求提供合理调整及必要协助"},{"start":25067.409,"end":25086.919,"text":"包括資訊物障礙、簡易閱讀版本、手語翻譯、溝通輔具等確保其平等參與及權益實現中央主管機關應會同相關機關及身心障礙團體訂定行政程序合理調整及支援服務之指引或規範以提升行政救濟制度之可及性與實效性"},{"start":25088.854,"end":25115.362,"text":"委員羅廷偉等16人提案第84條之二當事人告訴人或參加人為視覺障礙閱讀障礙或其他視覺感知有障礙之人法院檢查機關司法警察官仲裁機構挺行政機關構其他公法人團體或其他依法令得受理審查程序之團體應准其攜帶系統他人提供視力協助或口述影像服務導盲犬"},{"start":25116.582,"end":25133.443,"text":"入境替代溝通方式安裝所需之設備或攜帶程序進行中所需之各項輔具委員樓聽會等16人提案第84條之3當事人告訴人或參加人為聽覺障礙或其他聽覺感"},{"start":25133.965,"end":25159.02,"text":"知有障礙之人、法院檢察機關、司法警察官、仲裁機構庭、行政機關構、其他公法人團體或其他依法令得受理審理程序之團體應准其系統他人提供手語翻譯或同步聽打服務導龍犬入境、替代溝通方式、安裝所需之設備或攜帶程序進行中所需之各項輔具"},{"start":25161.926,"end":25189.272,"text":"委託聽委等16人提案第84條之四當事人告訴人際或參加人為言語障礙或其他言語感知有障礙之人法院檢查機關、司法警察官、仲裁機構、行政機關構其他公法人團體或其他依法令得受理審理程序之團體應准其攜同他人協助言語陳述或同步聽打服務現場文字陳述替代溝通方式安裝所需之設備或攜帶程"},{"start":25190.653,"end":25192.385,"text":"程序進行中所需之各項輔具"},{"start":25195.154,"end":25223.692,"text":"文羅廳會等16人提案第84條之五當事人告訴人或參加人為肢體障礙或其他行動功能有障礙之人法院檢查機關、司法警察官、仲裁機構庭、行政機關各其他公法人團體或其他依法令得受審理程序之團體應准其系統他人提供行動上之協助肢體輔助權入境、替代溝通方式安裝所需之設備或攜帶程序進行中所需之各項輔具"},{"start":25224.913,"end":25253.639,"text":"维诺廷伟等16人提案第54条之6当事人告诉人或参加人为前5条以外之身心障碍者法院检察机关司法警察官仲裁机构庭行政机关构其他公法人团体或其他依法令得受理审理程序之团体应按其需求准其系统他人提供协助或陪伴替代沟通方式安装所需之设备携带程序进行中所需之各项符具或调整其程序之进行方式"},{"start":25255.441,"end":25279.367,"text":"委員 羅廷偉等16人提案第84條之七 當事人告訴我或參加人同時符合前6條全部或已佈置身心障礙特徵者法院檢察機關司法警察官仲裁機構行政機關構其他公法人團體或其他依法令得受理審理程序之團體應按其需求或其障礙特徵同時依前6條全部或部分之規定辦理"},{"start":25283.533,"end":25311.214,"text":"委員 羅廷偉等16人提案第84條之八當事人告訴問或參加人為身心障礙者法院檢查機關司法警察官仲裁機構行政機關其他公法人員團體或其他依法領得受理審理程序之團體應考量現有交通動線空間狀態設施狀況及其他及其特殊需求做必要之改善或給予提供如其交通動線空間狀態"},{"start":25313.4,"end":25340.348,"text":"設施設備無法難以或難以改善或其特殊需求無法提供者得與其餘所在地或有無障礙空間無障礙設備設施之特定場所進行審理前項情形當事人告訴人或參加人所在與法院檢查機關司法警察官仲裁機構挺行政機關構其他公法人團體或其他依法令得受理審理程序之團體間"},{"start":25341.648,"end":25368.895,"text":"由聲音及影像相互傳送之科技設備而得直接詢問得以該設備詢問之文羅廷瑞等十六人提案第八十四條之九前八條有關各類身心障礙者所需之他人服務替代溝通方式所需設備或設施輔具交通動線空間狀態或其他因特殊狀態所需之程序"},{"start":25369.844,"end":25391.409,"text":"调整事项其认定标准由各目的事业主管机关定之各项认定标准之定定于修正前各目的事业主管机关应召开公听会邀集各类身心障碍者代表到场陈述意见各类身心障碍者代表得委由律师或其他熟悉身心障碍议题之专家学者或社会公正人士共同出席"},{"start":25394.124,"end":25415.461,"text":"委託廳委等16人提案第84條指示法院檢察機關司法警察官仲裁機構廳行政機關各其他公法人團體或其他依法令得受理審理程序之團體與審理身心障礙者之案件時應請非本案之同類身心障礙之第三人到場說明該障別之實際生活經驗"},{"start":25416.502,"end":25425.942,"text":"必要时得视个案状况由一事人员、社会工作人员、特殊教育人员、职业辅导评量人员或其他必要之专业人员到场说明。"},{"start":25428.752,"end":25447.665,"text":"委員羅廷偉等16人提案第84條之11違反第84條至第84條之8及前條規定者視為當然違背法令委員羅廷偉等16人提案第84條之12身心障礙者尋求法律諮詢法律文件撰擬或其他法律上之協助或尋求"},{"start":25448.886,"end":25477.262,"text":"或徇訴訟、非訟、偵查、訴外解決途徑重裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序主張本法其他法律或生權公約之權利時行政院應提供必要之法律輔助或輔助業務得委託財團法人法律輔助基金會或其他民間團體辦理如具有一定資歷者得示其資歷狀況負擔全部或一部之酬金"},{"start":25478.379,"end":25496.318,"text":"前項法律輔助之申請資格資歷標準輔助範圍審核方式律師酬金數額身心障礙者酬金之負擔比例及數額律師酬金之酌增減條件與數額後及委託辦理等事項之辦法由行政院定之"},{"start":25499.724,"end":25513.102,"text":"文羅廷惠等16人提案第84條之13為處理前條法律輔助事務行政院應設置身心障礙者權益基金其經費來源如下一 身心障礙者權益基金專戶剩餘專款"},{"start":25515.124,"end":25531.798,"text":"2.由政府逐年循预算程序之拨款3.社会福利基金及身心障碍者就业基金之提拨4.本基金之资习收入5.捐赠收入6.一定资历身心障碍者依本法分担或负担之酬金7."},{"start":25533.815,"end":25548.365,"text":"其他收入前項基金為新台幣100億元除鼓勵民間捐助外有行政院逐年編列預算捐助本法修正施行後創立基金為新台幣10億元有行政院第一個年度編組預算捐助"},{"start":25551.96,"end":25577.987,"text":"委員范雲等17人提案第85條增列第二項矯正機關應保障身心障礙收容人在矯正機關內至無障礙權益並採取適當措施為合理調整並提供適當之輔具與支持措施確保障礙收容人能自立生活且充分參與日常生活的各面向包括教化方案與作業並提供所需之醫療適應與復健"},{"start":25580.508,"end":25606.244,"text":"矯正机关所属人员应定期接受相关训练文罗听慧等16人提案第85条身心障碍者应收押、收容、服刑或其他依法限制人身自由之处分而需另入看守所、收容所、监狱或其他限制人身自由之场所时法务或其他目的事业主管机关应考量场所特性现有涉失状况及身心障碍者特殊需求做必要之改善"},{"start":25607.267,"end":25623.267,"text":"如其设施设备无法或难以改善或其身心状态不宜进入者,应按其情节以缴纳待金责付限制住居,令人有无障碍设备设施之场所,或以其他替代方案为之。"},{"start":25624.966,"end":25653.746,"text":"委託聽委等16人提案第85條之一為維護身心障礙者之基本人權每年應對法官檢察官司法警察官監所人員律師或其他司法程序參與人員辦理相關身心障礙之教育訓練前向教育訓練之內容實術教材之編寫及其他相關事項應邀請身心障礙者醫事人員社會工作人員特殊教育人員職業輔導評量人員或其他必要之專業人員共同商討"},{"start":25655.322,"end":25679.354,"text":"文調委員等19人提案第85條之一身心障礙者對於受本法身權公約及其他法令保障之權利遭受侵害無法或難以實施者得請求排除之有侵害之予者得請求防止之如致其權利遭受損害者並得請求損害賠償但損害因天災事變或其他不可抗力"},{"start":25680.214,"end":25684.999,"text":"所致者不在此限政府機關構其他公法人團體其他私人團體或個人"},{"start":25686.314,"end":25715.086,"text":"因待於執行職務而未進行合理調整至前項權利受損者準用前項之規定被害人雖非財產上之損害亦得請求賠償相當之金額其名譽被侵害者並得請求為回復名譽之適當處分前項請求權不得讓予或繼承但以金額賠償之請求權以依契約承諾或以起訴或提付仲裁者不在此限"},{"start":25717.881,"end":25733.544,"text":"委員劉建國等17人提案第85條之一,唯一第63條第一項規定,許可設立為身心障礙福利機構有第90條第二項各款情形之一,致身心障礙者死亡者處負責人現貸幣20萬以上100萬元以下罰款。"},{"start":25734.665,"end":25757.02,"text":"并公告其名称及负责人姓名有前项情形者主管机关应令负责人一个月内对于其收容之全部身心障碍者予以转介安置其无法办理者由主管机关协助之负责人不予配合者应处新台币20万元以上100万元以下罚还并强制实施转介安置"},{"start":25759.973,"end":25775.52,"text":"維諾廷惠等16人提案第7章3章名公正維諾廷惠等16人提案第85條2身心障礙者得救下列各款情形之一所為之法律行為請求公證人作成禁售強制執行之公證書"},{"start":25779.008,"end":25786.835,"text":"1.第8条3条之1,第8条3条之3,第8条3条之4,第8条3条之8行使权利与相对人达成和解或签订其他契约者2."},{"start":25786.835,"end":25792.64,"text":"因权利受损事件与相对人签订防止权利受损之协定者3."},{"start":25792.64,"end":25797.283,"text":"其他情形经双方同意与契约中约定进付强制执行之约款者"},{"start":25798.024,"end":25826.699,"text":"前項公證書之效力除公證法第43條所定則外可就相對人為監制或改善之無障礙進出物理之環境搭乘交通工具獲取資訊使用通訊傳播系統享有其他公眾開放或提供之設施或服務或其他替代措施或為進行合理調整之環境交通資訊通訊傳播設計或服務或為依前項規定履約之其他行為禁送法院強制執行"},{"start":25828.019,"end":25851.535,"text":"為規定之事項適用公正法之規定文件迴響等19人提案第85條之二損害賠償被害人得以下列規定則以請求1民法第216條之規定請求但被害人不能證明其損害時得以其行使權利以通常情形可得預期之利益減除被侵害後行使同一權利所得利益之差額為其所受損害"},{"start":25852.375,"end":25879.83,"text":"二、請求侵害人因侵害行為所得之利益但侵害人不能證明其成本或必要費用時以其侵害行為所得之全部收入為其所得利益三、以為造成其事前可得益其結果可獲之利益或所失利益以其為達成此項結果所費之勞力、時間及其他費用為所受損害四、因欠缺無障礙或為進行合理調整"},{"start":25881.465,"end":25906.32,"text":"而未能達成之利益為所失利益其因此所費之勞力、時間及其他費用為所受損害侵害人因違反第16條第1項或第74條之規定之被害人受有損害如因故意所致者被害人得請求損害額五倍以下之懲罰性賠償金如因重大過失所致者得請求三倍以下之懲罰性賠償金"},{"start":25907.941,"end":25931.431,"text":"依第一項規定被害人不義或不能證明其實際損害而得請求法院或仲裁機構庭依侵害情節在新台幣10萬元以上、500萬元以下著定賠償額如損害行為屬前向重大過失者賠償額最高的增至新台幣1500萬元如損害行為屬前向故意者賠償額最高的增至新台幣2500萬元"},{"start":25933.984,"end":25942.619,"text":"維羅廷偉等16人提案第7章之4章名申訴即在申訴程序維羅廷偉等16人提案第85條之3違反第16條第1項第5項第74條之5"},{"start":25946.345,"end":25964.386,"text":"规定者身心障碍者身心障碍者之配偶三亲等类之亲属共同生活之亲属家长家属或监护人得向遭逢歧视之原因或损害发生地之直辖事或现实之身心障碍者权益保障委员会以下简称地方身权会提出申诉"},{"start":25965.347,"end":25993.822,"text":"其向中央主管机关提出者中央主管机关因与收受申诉事件或发现有上开违反情事之日起7日内移送地方主管机关地方主管机关应于接获申诉后7日内展开调查地方主管机关进行调查时事件当事人及受邀协助调查之人或单位应与配合并提供相关资料地方申权会与调查过程中得依申请或职权对双方当事人进行协调如协调成立者"},{"start":25994.505,"end":26013.575,"text":"準用鄉鎮市調解條例第25條至第29條之規定如些條不成立則依序行調查地方主管機關因受理後二個月內作成申訴處分必要時得予延長並通知申訴人被申訴人及利害關係人延長以一次為限最長不得於二個月"},{"start":26015.1,"end":26030.976,"text":"明天會上等19人提案第85條之31、第85條之1請求時,對於未建置或改善至無障礙或未進行合理調整之環境、交通資訊、通訊、傳播、設計或服務,得請求改善建置個人協助服務或為其他必要之處置。"},{"start":26034.67,"end":26054.772,"text":"委員多聽委等16人提案第85條第4申訴人或被申訴人不符地方主管機關所謂之申訴處分者得於30日內向中央主管機關身心障礙者權益保障委員會以下簡稱中央申請會提起在申訴前條第2項至第5項之規定於前項情形準用之在申訴決定視同訴願決定"},{"start":26056.354,"end":26072.751,"text":"前條及第一項之申訴及再申訴審議處理辦法要莊主管機關定之文條尾向的是九人提案第85條之四被害人的請求由侵害人負擔費用將判決或重裁判斷書內容全部或一部登載新聞紙雜誌"},{"start":26075.339,"end":26098.45,"text":"委員聽委等16人提案第85條之五申訴人以其申請內容所得主張之請求權及時效應提出申訴而中斷但經撤回申訴再申訴起訴上訴抗告或再抗告或提起申訴遭駁為未提起行政救濟而告確定或申訴之申請經確認後最終人遭駁為確定者視為不中斷"},{"start":26099.651,"end":26116.626,"text":"前項規定於同一申訴事件所生在申訴行政訴訟程序準用之委員調委鄉等19人提案第85條之五被害人於市民第16條第1項或第74條之事實後侵害人因就無歧視之內容負舉證責任"},{"start":26118.187,"end":26132.649,"text":"維多廷委等16人提案第85條之六法院及對於有無歧視事實之認定應審酌中央或地方生權會所為之處分內容及其卷證資料如不予採信者應詳述其理由及其證據"},{"start":26134.071,"end":26152.305,"text":"前項規定於中央主管機關審議在申訴事件時准用之委員長委項等19人提案第85條之六損害賠償請求權自請求人知有損害及賠償義務人時起因二年間不行使而消滅自損害發生時起於十年者一同"},{"start":26155.459,"end":26172.49,"text":"維多廷委等16人提案第85條之7,政府機關各公私立學校僱用者或其他單位不得因身心障礙者提出本法之申訴或第三人協助他人申訴而予以繼過懲處、解聘僱調職或其他不利之處分。"},{"start":26173.491,"end":26195.346,"text":"為尿尾相等19人提案第85條之七身心障礙者之配偶三親等內之親屬共同生活之親屬家長家屬或監護人遭逢第16條第5項第74條第3項之年代歧視者得向親愛人主張權利其主張權利之內容準用第85條之一至第85條之六之規定"},{"start":26196.721,"end":26209.903,"text":"委託聽委等16人提案第85條之8除本章有特別規定者外申訴之程序適用行政程序法總則及行政處分章之規定再申訴之程序適用訴願法之規定"},{"start":26212.626,"end":26238.738,"text":"維尼奧韋祥等十九人提案第85條之八身心障礙者與相對人間進行締約如違反本法或身權公約之規定者得要求締約或請求增減其對價相對人非有正當理由不得拒絕如致其權利遭受損害者並得請求損害賠償前項規定於履約時準用之第85條之一至第85條之五之規定於前二項情形準用之"},{"start":26240.424,"end":26265.358,"text":"委託聽委等16人提案第7章之5章名權益受損之協調再協調委託聽委等16人提案第85條之9身心障礙者認其權益受損者得向權益受損事項之原因或損害發生地之地方生權會申請協調前項有關權益受損協調之處理及其他應遵行事項之辦法由地方主管機關定之"},{"start":26266.499,"end":26295.151,"text":"委員廖偉祥等19人提案第85條之9依本章主張權利除有特別規定外政府機關各或其他公法人團體適用國家賠償法行政訴訟法第7條第8條之規定其他私人團體或個人適用民法之規定委員廖偉祥等19人提案第7章之2章名申訴及再申訴程序"},{"start":26296.687,"end":26322.767,"text":"委託廳委等16人提案第85條之十申請協調有下列情形之一者地方生權會不予受理一 無具體相對人則二 已在第一審法院言辭辯論終結者三 協調內容為確定判決之效力所及者四 同事件依本法規定申請協調者地方生權會除前項情形或應補正式向外應於受理申請後15日內進行協調"},{"start":26326.499,"end":26349.775,"text":"文條迴響等19人提案第85條之10違反第16條第1項第5項第74條之規定者身心障礙者身心障礙者之配偶三親等內之親屬共同生活之親屬家長家屬或監護人得向遭逢歧視之原因或損害發生地之指向事或縣市之身心障礙者權益保障委員會以下簡稱地方生權會提出申訴"},{"start":26351.016,"end":26376.781,"text":"其向中央主管機關提出者中央主管機關因於收受申訴事件或發現有上開違反情勢之日及7日內移送地方主管機關地方主管機關因於接獲申訴後7日內展開調查地方主管機關進行調查時事件當事人及受邀協助調查之人或單位應與配合並提供相關資料地方申權會於調查過程中得依申請"},{"start":26378.081,"end":26399.859,"text":"或职权对双方当事人进行协调如协调成立者准用乡政室调节条例第25条至第29条之规定如协调不成立者应续行调查地方主管及官员受理后二个月内做成申诉处分必要时得予延长并通知申诉人被申诉人及利害关系人延长以一次为限最长不得于二个月"},{"start":26402.657,"end":26415.207,"text":"委託聽委等16人提案第85條之11申請協調人依其申請內容所得主張之請求權其失效因申請協調而中斷但協調之申請經撤回不受理或協調不成立時視為不中斷"},{"start":26416.977,"end":26444.531,"text":"民調委想等19人提案第85條之11申訴人或被申訴人不符地方主管機關所為之申訴處分者得於30日內向中央主管機關身心障礙者權益保障委員會以下簡稱中央申請會提起再申訴前條第二項之第五項之規定於前項情形準用之在申訴決定視同訴願決定前條及第一項之訴訟及再訴審議處理辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":26446.122,"end":26447.47,"text":"維羅廳會等16人提案第85條之12"},{"start":26453.721,"end":26482.671,"text":"權益受損協調事件經雙方當事人達成協議者協調成立權益受損協調事件達成協議有困難者地方生權會的斟酌一切情形求雙方當事人利益之平衡經全體委員過半數之同意作成協調方案並定45日以下期間勸導雙方當事人同意必要時得再延長45日當事人位於前項鎖定期間內而不同意之表示者視為雙方當事人依協調方案協調成立"},{"start":26483.311,"end":26506.852,"text":"多數具有共同利益之一造當事人其中一人或數人於第二項鎖定期間內為不同意之表示者該協調方案對之失其效力對其他當事人視為協調成立但為不同意表示當事人之人數超過該造全體當事人人數之半數時視為協調不成立地方申請會議第二項規定為勸導者視當情形公開該協調方案"},{"start":26512.56,"end":26530.915,"text":"文料委向等19人提案第85條至12申訴人依其申請內容所得主張之請求權其時效應提出申訴而中斷但經撤回申訴再申訴起訴上訴抗告或再抗告或提起申訴遭駁回為提起行政救濟而確定或申訴之申請經確認為"},{"start":26533.717,"end":26542.265,"text":"確認後最終人遭駁回確定者視為不中斷傾向規定於統一申訴事件所身在申訴行政訴訟程序准用之"},{"start":26544.369,"end":26571.57,"text":"維多廳委等16人提案第85條之13協調成立者地方主管機關應製作協調書前項協調書之作成及效力準用鄉鎮市調解條例第25條之第29條之規定維尼奧韋祥等19人提案第85條之13法院及對於有無歧視事實之認定因審佐中央或地方生權會所為之處分內容及其卷證資料如不予採信者應詳述其理由及其證據"},{"start":26572.751,"end":26577.452,"text":"前項規定於中央主管機關審議在申訴事件時準用之"},{"start":26579.778,"end":26605.451,"text":"委員羅廷偉等16人提案第85條之14協調不成立者準用鄉鎮市條件條例第30條第31條之規定委員廖偉翔等19人提案第85條之14政府機關購公司力學校僱主或其他單位不得因身心障礙者提出違反本法之申訴或第三人協助他人申訴而予以計過懲處解聘僱調職或其他不利之處分"},{"start":26606.72,"end":26634.539,"text":"委員聽委等16人提案第85條之15,全因受損協調事件經地方生權會協調不成立者,當事人得就同意事件向中央生權會申請再協調。申請再協調因與協調不成立證明書之通知送達之日起30日內,檢據申請書向原地方生權會提出。地方生權會於收到前項申請書後,因素將申請書抄本送達他方當事人並將該協調事件有關。"},{"start":26636.46,"end":26661.929,"text":"卷宗連同申請書及其他有關文件送交中央申請會第一項有關權益受損在協調之處理及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之文料委相等19人提案第85條之15除本章有特別規定者外申訴之程序適用行政程序法總則及行政處分章之規定再申訴之程序適用訴願法之規定"},{"start":26666.4,"end":26690.734,"text":"維多廳委等16人提案第85條之16中央生權會應與當事人申請在協調後2個月內做成再協調書並送達於當事人必要時的延長2個月維多廳委等16人提案第85條之17第85條之9第一項第85條之10至第85條之14之規定於再協調程序准用之"},{"start":26698.033,"end":26724.344,"text":"委員 羅廷瑋等16人提案新增第7章之6仲裁委員 羅廷瑋等16人提案第85條之18身心障礙者或相對人因權益受損協調或在協調事件不成立者當事人之一方得向中央主管機關設立之仲裁機構申請交付仲裁身心障礙者權益受損事件經雙方當事人書面同意得不經協調竟向仲裁機構申請交付仲裁如其權益受損事件已細數法院者"},{"start":26724.864,"end":26750.856,"text":"法官亦得經雙方當事人之同意疑負仲裁機構仲裁之身心障礙者權益受損事件協調或在協調不成立者中央或地方主管機關任有影響公眾生活及利益情節重大或應目的事業主管機關之請求得以職權交付仲裁機構進行仲裁並通知雙方當事人第三項之仲裁機構得失需要與各直轄市縣市設立分支機構"},{"start":26752.177,"end":26777.774,"text":"委員 羅廷輝等16人提案第85條之19仲裁機構受理仲裁之申請應依申請人之請求以下列方式之一進行仲裁其為一方申請交付仲裁或依職權交付仲裁者僅得以第二款之方式為之一 選一位仲裁人成立獨任仲裁庭二 由三位或五位仲裁人組成合一仲裁庭前項仲裁人名冊由仲裁機構聆聘具一定資格之公證並附"},{"start":26779.095,"end":26793.932,"text":"學士經驗者從任會診之並應報請中央主管機關被查前條仲裁機構之組織前二項仲裁人之資格條件 聆聘方式選定及仲裁程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":26794.752,"end":26812.4,"text":"委員 羅廷輝等16人提案第85條之20 申請交付仲裁者 應提出仲裁申請書並檢附協調或再協調書或不經協調或再協調之同意書 其為一方申請交付仲裁者 並應檢附符合第85條之18第二項規定之證明文件"},{"start":26813.48,"end":26841.181,"text":"委員羅廷瑞等十六人提案第八十五條之二十一雙方當事人合意以獨任仲裁庭方式進行仲裁者仲裁機構應與收到仲裁申請書後通知雙方當事人與收到通知之日期五日內與仲裁機構臨聘之仲裁人名冊中選定仲裁人一人拒報藉其為選定者由仲裁機構代為指定以組成合意仲裁庭方式進行仲裁者仲裁機構應與收到仲裁申請書或依職權交付仲裁後"},{"start":26841.721,"end":26867.068,"text":"通知雙方當事人與收到通知之日期五日內與仲裁機構聆聘之仲裁人名冊中各自選定仲裁人拒報藉其為選定者由仲裁機構代為指定仲裁進行程序除當事人另有約定外仲裁機構應於前二項規定成立仲裁庭後之通知日期十日內決定詢問其日通知雙方當事人並於六個月內做成仲裁判斷書必要時得延長三個月"},{"start":26869.989,"end":26887.82,"text":"委員 羅廷惠等16人提案第85條之22仲裁機構作成仲裁判斷後應於10日內作成仲裁判斷書送達雙方當事人及中央主管機關當事人與仲裁庭前促成和解者與依本法成立之協調或再協調有同一之效力"},{"start":26889.682,"end":26900.624,"text":"委員落定為等十六人提案第八十五條之二十三除本章有特別規定之外適用仲裁法及其他有關法律之規定委員落定為等十六人提案第七章之七團體救濟"},{"start":26903.474,"end":26930.316,"text":"委員羅廷偉等16人提案第85條之24依本章規定提起訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件之財團法人或公益社團法人應符合下列要件一財團法人之登記財產總額達新台幣1000萬元或社團法人之社員人數達100人二保障身心障礙者之權益事項與其章程所定目的範圍內"},{"start":26931.377,"end":26952.533,"text":"三 許可設立三年以上委員 駱廷輝等16人提案第85條之25對於造成多數當事人受損害之同一事件財團法人或公益社團法人得由10人以上當事人授予訴訟 非訟 訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件實施權後"},{"start":26953.554,"end":26973.726,"text":"以自己之名義起訴、提付仲裁或提出申請當事人得於言辭辯論終結前或詢問終結前撤回訴訟、非訟、訴外解決途徑、仲裁、行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件實施權之授予並通知法院其他機關構或仲裁機構停"},{"start":26976.388,"end":26993.035,"text":"前項訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件實施權之授予包含因同一事件而為強制執行假扣押假處分定暫時狀態處分暫時處分停止執行或其他未實現"},{"start":26994.235,"end":27018.504,"text":"權力所必要之處理以下簡稱保全程序第一項及第二項訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件實施權之授予應以文書為之仲裁法第四條規定與財團法人或公益社團法人依第一項或第二項規定起訴或擴張應受判決事項之聲明時不適用之"},{"start":27019.364,"end":27038.553,"text":"委員 羅廷輝等16人提案第85條之26前條訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件法院仲裁機構庭行政機關構其他公法人團體或其他依法令得受理審理程序之團體得以申請得以申請申請"},{"start":27042.254,"end":27063.79,"text":"依職權公告小事其他因同意原因事實受有損害之當事人得於一定期間內向前條起訴提付仲裁申請或申請之財團法人或公益社團法人授予訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件之實施權"},{"start":27064.731,"end":27092.762,"text":"由該財團法人或公益社團法人於第一審言辭辯論終結前或詢問終結前擴張應受裁判仲裁判斷或其他決定事項之聲明其他因同意原因事實受有損害之當事人未依前項規定授予訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或究極程序或其他法律程序事件實施權者亦得與法院仲裁機構庭或其他受理單位公告小事之一定期間內起訴"},{"start":27094.423,"end":27109.265,"text":"提付仲裁申請或申請由法院仲裁機構庭或其他受理單位並按審理其他因同意原因事實受有損害之當事人亦得申請法院仲裁機構庭或其他受理單位為前項之公告"},{"start":27110.046,"end":27135.853,"text":"前二項公告應皆是於法院仲裁機構庭行政機關構其他公法人團體或其他依法令得受理審理程序之團體公告處資訊網路及其他適當處所法院仲裁機構庭行政機關構其他公法人團體或其他依法令得受理審理程序之團體認為必要時並得命登在於公報或新聞紙或用其他方法公告之其費用由國庫墊付"},{"start":27138.243,"end":27152.582,"text":"委員 羅廷輝等16人提案第85條之27當事人依第85條之25D向撤回訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事實實施權之授予者"},{"start":27153.523,"end":27170.616,"text":"該部分訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件當然停止該當事人應即聲明承受訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件"},{"start":27171.457,"end":27187.817,"text":"法院仲裁機構庭行政機關構其他公保人團體或其他依法令得受理審理程序之團體亦得依職權命該當事人承受訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件"},{"start":27188.978,"end":27217.776,"text":"財團法人或公益團體法人依第八十五條之二十五規定起訴提付仲裁或提出申請後因部分當事人撤回訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或就計程序或其他法律程序事件實施授予實施權之授予至其餘部分不足10人者人得就其餘部分繼續進行訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請"},{"start":27218.437,"end":27220.997,"text":"或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件"},{"start":27223.334,"end":27249.489,"text":"委員 駱廷威等16人提案第85條之28各當事人於第85條之25第一項及第85條之26第一項之損害賠償請求權其時效應個別計算委員 駱廷威等16人提案第85條之29財團法人或公益團體法人就當事人授予訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件實施權之事件"},{"start":27250.249,"end":27264.864,"text":"有違一切訴訟非訟 訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件行為之權但當事人得限制其違捨棄 認諾 撤回或和解"},{"start":27265.905,"end":27283.924,"text":"前項當事人中一人所為之限制其效力不及於其他當事人第一項之限制應於第85條之二署第三項之文書內表明或以書狀提出於法院仲裁機構庭行政機關各其他公法人團體或其他依法令得受理審理程序之團體"},{"start":27285.245,"end":27309.529,"text":"委員 羅廷輝等16人提案第85條之30當事人對於第85條之25訴訟非送或其他法律程序事件之裁判處分決定或最終結果不符者得予財團法人或公益社團法人起訴上訴抗告再抗告訴願或其他救濟期間借滿前撤回訴訟非送或其他法律程序事件實施權之授予"},{"start":27310.109,"end":27334.295,"text":"依法提出起訴上訴抗告再抗告訴願或其他救濟途徑財團法人或公益團體法人於收受終局裁判處分決定仲裁判斷或其他最終結果書面文件正本後應即將其結果通知當事人並應於7日內將是否提出起訴上訴抗告再抗告起訴或其他救濟途徑之意旨以書面通知當事人"},{"start":27334.975,"end":27349.552,"text":"委員 若聽委等16人提案第85條之31財團法人或公益團體法人應將第85條之25訴訟非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件結果所得之賠償"},{"start":27350.613,"end":27370.525,"text":"扣除诉讼非送宿外解决途径仲裁行政事件之申请或救济程序或其他法律程序事件必要费用后分别交付授予诉讼非送宿外解决途径仲裁行政事件之申请或救济程序或其他法律程序事件实施权之当事人并不得请求报酬"},{"start":27371.846,"end":27389.98,"text":"委員 羅定偉等16人提案第85條之32 財團法人或公益社團法人依第85條之25規定提起訴訟 申請保全程序 應聲明請求及保全程序之原因法院應就財團法人或公益社團法人前項申請為免供擔保之裁定"},{"start":27390.76,"end":27418.063,"text":"除前二項規定者外 財團法人或公益社團法人依第85條之25第二項規定申請保全程序者準用第85條之38第85條之40至第85條之42之規定委員 羅廷輝等16人提案第85條之33財團法人或公益社團法人依第85條之25規定提起訴訟上訴抗告或其他救濟途徑其訴訟或其他程序標的金額"},{"start":27418.723,"end":27437.897,"text":"或價額超過新台幣六十萬元者超過部分暫免繳裁判費他照當事人提起上述勝訴確定者欲繳之裁判費扣除其扣除由其負擔之費用後發還之前項暫免繳之裁判費第一審法院因與該事件確定後"},{"start":27438.217,"end":27450.991,"text":"依職權裁定向附單訴訟費用之一照徵收之但就財團法人或公益社團法人因附單訴訟標的金額或價額超過新台幣六十萬元部分之裁判費免予徵收"},{"start":27453.133,"end":27467.509,"text":"財團法人或公益社團法人依第85條之25起訴或申請保全程序取得執行名義額而申請強制執行時其執行標的金額或價額超過新台幣60萬元者超過部分暫免繳執行費該暫免繳之執行費由執行所得扣還之"},{"start":27471.974,"end":27489.122,"text":"委員 羅廷輝等16人提案第85條之34財團法人或公益社團法人依第85條之25提起民事家事或行政訴訟法院應依其申請以裁定准與訴訟就注不適用民事訴訟法第107條第108條及行政訴訟法第101條之規定但顯無勝訴之望者不在此限"},{"start":27496.986,"end":27516.622,"text":"委員 羅廷輝等十六人提案第八十五條之三十五 財團法人或公益社團法人依第八十五條之二十五規定提起訴訟或上訴市民在判決確定前不為執行恐受難以抵償或難以計算之損害者法院應依其申請宣告準於免供擔保之假執行"},{"start":27517.603,"end":27534.425,"text":"委員羅廷輝等16人提案第85條之36依本章規定提起訴訟非訴非送訴外解決途徑仲裁行政事件之申請或救濟程序或其他法律程序事件之財團法人或公益社團法人應委任律師代理訴訟"},{"start":27535.746,"end":27552.066,"text":"委員 羅廷瑋等16人提案第85條之37除本章有特別規定之外適用各該訴訟 非訟 仲裁 訴外解決途徑行政事件或其他法律程序相關法律之規定委員 羅廷瑋等16人提案第7章之8保全程序"},{"start":27552.666,"end":27573.22,"text":"委員羅廷瑋等十六人提案第八十五條之三十八身心障礙者依本法申請作成公證書或提起申訴再申訴協調再協調或仲裁者予作成公證書申訴處分再申訴決定協調結果在協調結果或仲裁判斷前得向法院申請假扣押假處分定暫時狀態處分或停止執行"},{"start":27575.882,"end":27581.51,"text":"身心障礙者與公證書申訴書申訴處分書再申訴決定書協調書再協調書或仲裁判斷書送達後就公證書申訴處分書再申訴決定書協調書再協調書或仲裁判斷書之請求"},{"start":27592.564,"end":27613.365,"text":"欲保全行政執行強制執行或避免損害之擴大向法院申請假扣押假處分定暫時狀態處分或停止執行時有下列情形之一者得以公證書申訴處分再申訴決定協調書再協調書或仲裁判斷書代替請求及假扣押假處分定暫時狀態處分或停止執行原因之示明"},{"start":27616.528,"end":27632.538,"text":"法院不得在命申新障礙者供擔保後使為保全處分一公證書作成後尚未向法院申請強制執行二申訴處分作成後尚未提起再申訴或再申訴決定作成後尚未提起行政訴訟"},{"start":27633.459,"end":27659.415,"text":"三 協調結果在協調結果或仲裁判斷經法院核定前四 相對人就依本法作成之公正申訴再申訴協調再協調或仲裁事件之同一事實向法院提起民事或行政訴訟前二項情形於公正申訴再申訴協調再協調或仲裁事件終結前不適用民事訴訟法第529條第一項及行政訴訟法第295條之規定"},{"start":27661.616,"end":27685.192,"text":"委員 羅廷瑋等16人提案第85條之39身心障礙者依第83條之1 第83條之3 第83條之4 第83條之8或身權公約施行法第8條第一項之規定主張權利申請假扣押假處分 定暫時狀態之處分或停止執行者法院依民事訴訟法第526條第二項第三項或行政訴訟法第297條准用民事訴訟法第526條第二項"},{"start":27689.935,"end":27705.704,"text":"第三項所命供擔保之金額不得高於請求標的金額或價額之十分之一前項情形身心障礙者市民提供擔保與其生計有重大困難者法院不得命提供擔保委員 羅廷輝等16人提案第85條之40"},{"start":27707.165,"end":27730.226,"text":"身心障礙者所提請求給付各項津貼個人協助服務受歧視之損害無障礙之建置或合理調整之事件法院任由造成其生計上之重大困難或其就醫受教就業或其他基本人權之損害將無法或難以回覆者應闡明其得申請命先為停止執行或一定給付之定戰時狀態處分"},{"start":27732.921,"end":27751.27,"text":"委員 若聽委員等16人提案第85條之41身心障礙者提起前條之主張法院任身心障礙者有勝訴法院任身心障礙者有勝訴之望且他遭履行前條義務非顯有重大困難者得依身心障礙者之申請為繼續給付津貼個人協助之服務損害賠償無障礙之建置或合理調整之停止執行或定暫時狀態處分"},{"start":27759.614,"end":27788.802,"text":"第一審法院就前項訴訟判決身心障礙者勝訴者第二審法院因依身心障礙者之申請為前項之處分前二項申請法院得為免供擔保之處分法院因身心障礙者受本案敗訴判決確定而撤銷第一項第二項處分之裁定時得依他造之申請在撤銷範圍內同時命身心障礙者返還其所受領之金錢或必要費用並依申請附加自受領"},{"start":27789.822,"end":27807.247,"text":"受領時期之利息但身心障礙者已依第一項第二項處分依法履行對價之義務或屬維繫維繫生命之必要行為者不在此限前項命返還金錢或必要費用之裁定得抗告抗告中應停止執行"},{"start":27808.087,"end":27836.842,"text":"委員羅廷瑋等16人提案第85條之42身心障礙者提起職務確認調動無效或回復原職之訴法院任各級政府機關構公法人團體各級公司立學校公營事業政府捐助基金超過50%之財團法人民營企業或民間團體以下簡稱雇主調動身心障礙者之工作有違反身心障礙者之法令公教人員或勞工法令團體協約或協定職場或工作規則"},{"start":27837.942,"end":27858.841,"text":"聘僱雙方或勞資會議決議任用命令聘任聘用或勞動契約或勞動習慣之餘且僱主依調動前原工作繼續任用聘任聘用或僱用非顯有重大困難者得精深心障礙者之申請為依原工作或兩照所同意之工作內容繼續任用聘用"},{"start":27859.562,"end":27878.181,"text":"繼續任用 聘任 聘用或僱用之定暫時狀態處分 前項所稱民營企業指公司合夥或獨資 前項所稱民間團體指非盈利之財團法人或社團法人委員 羅廷輝等16人提案第85條之43身心障礙者依第84"},{"start":27879.062,"end":27907.621,"text":"八十四條之十二身權公約施行法第八條第二項申請法律輔助獲准者受託辦理法律輔助之團體任法律輔助事件顯有勝訴之望並有申請實施保全或停止強制執行程序之必要身心障礙者應向法院繳納之假扣押假處分定暫時狀態處分暫時處分停止執行或停止強制執行擔保金得由受委託辦理法律輔助之團體出具之保證書代之"},{"start":27909.042,"end":27932.171,"text":"前項出去保證書原因消滅時受託辦理法律輔助之團體得以自己名義向法院申請返還委員羅廷輝等16人提案第85條之44除本章有特別規定之外適用民事訴訟法行政訴訟法有關保全程序之相關規定委員何新淳等17人委員陳金輝等16人提案"},{"start":27934.025,"end":27960.264,"text":"第86條違反第16條第一項規定者處新台幣10萬元以上50萬元以下罰還廣播電視事業違反第74條規定者由目的事業主管機關處新台幣6萬元以上60萬元以下罰還並另期限其改善藉其為改善者得按次處罰前項以外之宣傳品出版品網際網路或其他媒體業者違反第74條規定者由目的事業主管機關處負責的新台幣6萬元以上60萬元以下罰還"},{"start":27962.365,"end":27979.886,"text":"並得沒入同條規定之物品令其限其移除內容下架或其他必要之處置藉其不履行者得按次處罰至履行為止宣傳品出版品網際網路或其他媒體業者無負責人或負責人對行為人之行為不具監督關係者前項所定處罰對象為行為人"},{"start":27982.068,"end":28007.088,"text":"第三項鎖定出版品宣傳品網際網路或其他媒體之目的事業主管機關指行為人或負責人所屬公司商業所在地之指轄市縣市政府委員羅廷偉等十六人提案第八十六條有下列各款情形之一者主管機關或目的事業主管機關因應應命行為人與一定期日限期改正或改善情節重大者得併處新台幣三十萬元以上一百五十萬元以下罰還"},{"start":28008.108,"end":28030.437,"text":"一違反第十六條第一項第五項之規定二違反第七十四條規定行為人為依前項鎖定期限期限內改正或改善者主管機關或目的事業主管機關得失違法情節同時或選擇為下列各款之處分自改正或改善為止一訂新台幣三十萬元以上一百五十萬元以下之貸金並強制行為人按月連續繳納"},{"start":28031.758,"end":28055.819,"text":"二 以強制之方式要求行使替代方案其所生之必要費用由行為人負擔前二項所定之罰還代金或必要費用經主管機關或目的事業主管機關催告送達後行為人無故於三十日仍不繳納者 禁送行政執行處強制執行違反第八十四條至第八十四條之八 第八十四條之十 第八十四條"},{"start":28057.4,"end":28070.508,"text":"第85條之規定者 由監察院人權委員會進行調查 如今調查屬實者準用前三項之規定委員 廖偉祥等19人提案第86條"},{"start":28072.388,"end":28086.067,"text":"與委員羅廷威等十六人提案第一至第三項同委員劉建國等十七人提案第八十六條第四項第三句文字負責人後面為逗號與委員何新淳等十七人提案同"},{"start":28087.468,"end":28111.216,"text":"委員寧願請等十八人提案第八十六條違反第十六條第一項規定者處心台幣十萬元以上五十萬元以下罰還廣播電視事業宣傳品出版品違反第七十四條規定者由目的事業主管機關處心台幣十萬元以上五十萬元以下罰還並令其限期改正藉其為改正者得按次處罰網際網路業者違反第七十四條規定者由目的事業主管機關處"},{"start":28112.236,"end":28130.136,"text":"負責人新台幣十五萬元以上七十五萬元以下罰還並得沒入同條規定具物品令其限期移除內容下架或其他必要之處之藉其不履行者得按次處罰至履行為止網際網路無負責人或負責人對行為人之行為不具監督關係者前向所定處罰對象為行為人"},{"start":28131.798,"end":28149.623,"text":"第三項 鎖定網際網路之目的事業主管機關 指行為人或負責人所屬公司商業所在地之直轄市縣市政府委員吳麗華等十八人提案第八十六條文字第七十四條後面增列第一項或第二項之文字予以委員劉建國等十七人提案同"},{"start":28152.492,"end":28177.788,"text":"委員何欣存等十七人 委員陳金輝等十六人 委員林月琴等十八人提案第八十八條 於第一項文字所有權人後面增列頓號使用人予以現行法同委員劉建國等十七人 委員吳麗華等十八人提案第八十八條第一項手具文字為改善後面為逗號予以委員何欣存等十七人提案同委員劉建國等十七人 委員吳麗華等十八人提案第八十九條第一項如下"},{"start":28178.288,"end":28200.166,"text":"未依第六十三條第一項規定許可設立為身心障礙福利機構或因辦理財團法人登記而未依同條第二項或第四項規定期限辦理者處其負責人薪台幣六萬元以上三十萬元以下罰還及公告其姓名並令其限期改善第三項守據為經依第一項規定令其限期改善予以現行法同"},{"start":28200.706,"end":28215.025,"text":"委員您願請等十八人提案第八十九條第一項第二句如下或應辦理財團法人登記而未依第六十三條第二項或第四項規定期限辦理者第三項守據為經依第一項規定限期改善予以現行法同"},{"start":28217.048,"end":28237.917,"text":"委員何新存等十七人 委員陳金輝等十六人 委員林月琴等十八人提案新增第八十九條之一 設立身心障礙福利機構衛役第六十三條第一項規定申請許可 由第九十條第二項各款情形之一至身心障礙者死亡者處負責人新台幣二十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還 並公告其名稱及負責人姓名"},{"start":28238.377,"end":28255.651,"text":"有前向情形者主管機關應令負責人於一個月內對於其收容之全部身心障礙者予以轉接安置其無法辦理時由主管機關協助之負責人應與配合不予配合者處新台幣二十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還並強制實施轉接安置"},{"start":28256.391,"end":28283.272,"text":"委員劉建國等十七人提案新增第八十九條之一身心障礙福利機構違反第六十三條之七第一項規定者處心台幣六萬元以上三十萬元以下罰還並令其限期改善藉其為改善者得按次處罰委員吳立華等十八人提案新增第八十九條之一第一項第一句如下未依第六十三條第一項規定許可設立為身心障礙福利機構予以委員何新淳等十七人提案同"},{"start":28283.832,"end":28305.76,"text":"委員吳麗華等十八人提案新增第八十九條之二身心障礙福利機構違反第六十三條之七第一項規定者處心台幣六萬元以上三十萬元以下罰還並令其限期改善藉其為改善者得按次處罰委員何清淳等十七人委員陳金輝等十六人委員劉建國等十七人委員林月琴等十八人委員吳麗華等十八人提案第九十條"},{"start":28306.7,"end":28320.656,"text":"身心障礙福利機構違反第76條第4項規定位於24小時內向紫霞市縣市主管機關通報者處心台幣6萬元以上30萬元以下罰還身心障礙福利機構有下列情形之一處心台幣6萬元以上30萬元以下罰還"},{"start":28321.557,"end":28348.562,"text":"並公告其名稱與負責人姓名及令其限期改善藉其未改善者得按次處罰 第一第七十五條各款規定情形之一二提供不安全之設施設備或供給未符合食品安全衛生管理法第八條第一項鎖定食品之良好衛生規範準則之參影三其他重大情勢足以影響身心障礙者之身心健康身心障礙福利機構有前項各款情形之一至身心障礙者死亡者"},{"start":28349.202,"end":28376.468,"text":"處新台幣二十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還必要時得令其停辦一個月以上一年以下或廢止其設立許可有前項停辦或廢止設立許可情形者主管機關應令負責人於一個月內對於其收容至全部身心障礙者予以轉接安置其無法辦理時由主管機關協助之負責人應與配合不配合者處新台幣二十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還並強制實施轉接安置"},{"start":28377.288,"end":28403.248,"text":"委員何新淳等17人委員陳金輝等16人委員劉建國等17人委員吳立華等18人提案第92條身心障礙福利機構與主管機關一第90條第二項第93條第一項或第94條規定令其限期改善期間不得增加收容身心障礙者其增加收容者另處新台幣6萬元以上30萬元以下罰還並得按次處罰經主管機關一第90條第二項第93條第一項"},{"start":28405.43,"end":28434.714,"text":"第一款至第三款規定令其限期改善 借其為改善者的令其停辦一個月以上一年以下並公告其名稱及負責人姓名經營主管機關依依第九十三條第一項第四款規定令其限期改善借其為改善者應令其停辦一個月以上一年以下並公告其名稱及負責人姓名停辦限期屆滿停辦期限屆滿人為改善或違反法規情節重大者應廢止其設立許可"},{"start":28435.134,"end":28462.363,"text":"依第二項第三項或第九十條第三項規定令其停辦而拒不遵守者處心臺幣二十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還並得按次處罰有第二項至第四項停辦或廢止設立許可情形者主管機關應令負責人於一個月內對於其收容之全部身心障礙者予以轉接安置其無法辦理時由主管機關協助之負責人應與配合不予配合者處心臺幣二十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還"},{"start":28463.724,"end":28478.284,"text":"並強制實施轉接安置委員林月琴等十八人提案第九十二條第二項第二據如下 第九十三條第一項第一款至第三款或第五款規定令其限期改善予以委員何新淳等十七人提案同"},{"start":28479.83,"end":28505.575,"text":"委員何新存等17人委員陳金輝等16人委員劉建國等17人委員吳麗華等18人提案第93條主管機關一第64條第一項規定對身心障礙福利機構輔導或評鑑發現有下列情形之一者應令其限期改善藉其為改善者處新台幣5萬元以上25萬元以下罰還並得按次處罰一業務經營方針與設立目的或捐助章程不符二"},{"start":28506.395,"end":28522.101,"text":"違反議第62條第三項所定標準之規定三 財產總額已無法達成目的事業之營運或對於業務財務為不實之懲罰四 金主管機關評鑑為平等或丁等前項第四款之評鑑連續二次為平等以下者"},{"start":28522.701,"end":28544.938,"text":"處新台幣5萬元以上25萬元以下罰還及廢止其設立許可不適用前項規定並應令負責人於一個月內對於其收容資全部身心障礙者予以轉接安置其無法辦理時由主管機關協助之負責人應予配合不予配合者處新台幣20萬元以上100萬元以下罰還並強制實施轉接安置"},{"start":28546.758,"end":28564.113,"text":"委員林月琴等十八人提案第九十三條第一項第五款如下五身心障礙福利機構違反第六十三條之五或第六十三條之七第二項規定者與委員何新淳等十七人提案同委員劉建國等十七人委員吳麗華等十八人提案第九十四條"},{"start":28564.753,"end":28585.385,"text":"修正第二款如下二 停辦擴充或遷移衛役第六十三條第五項鎖定辦法規定辦理予以現行法同委員林月琴等十八人提案第九十四條修正第二款如下二 停辦擴充或遷移衛役中央主管機關一第六十三條第五項規定鎖定辦法辦理予以現行法同"},{"start":28586.005,"end":28603.641,"text":"委員吳立華等十八人提案第九十八條刪除現行第一項修正現行第二項守據為違反第四十六條第四項規定修正現行第三項守據為前項罰還之收入現行第二及第三項一列為第一及第二項予以現行法同"},{"start":28604.321,"end":28632.435,"text":"委員陳冠廷的二十人提案第九十九條修正第一項第三句如下該管交通主管機關得儲新台幣五萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還第二項後段如下公共停車場位議第五十六條第一項規定保留一定比率停車位者目的事業主管機關應令限期改善藉其為改善者儲其所有人或管理人新台幣五萬元以上三十萬元以下罰還得按次處罰至其改善完成為止予以現行法同"},{"start":28633.135,"end":28641.54,"text":"委員劉建國等17人提案第100條修正手續如下違反第16條第3項或第60條第2項規定者予以現行法同委員羅廷威等16人提案第102條第1項第1款如下1違反第16條第1項第5項第74條第84條至第84條之8第84條之10第85條規定予以現行法同"},{"start":28656.389,"end":28676.009,"text":"委員廖維祥等19人提案第102條公務員執行職務有下列行為之一者應受懲處第一項第一款如下依違反第16條第一項第5項第74條之規定予以現行法同委員羅廷輝等16人提案第107條增訂第三項如下中華民國全年全月全日修正之條文"},{"start":28676.449,"end":28691.118,"text":"自公布後二年施行予以現行法同委員廖偉祥等19人委員王玉敏等17人提案第107條增訂第三項如下中華民國全年全月全日修正這條文自公布後一年施行予以現行法同"},{"start":28691.838,"end":28720.368,"text":"委員劉建國等十七人 委員吳麗華等十八人提案第107條第一項前段如下 本法中華民國九十六年七月十一日修正公佈之第三十八條 逗號自公佈後二年施行 欲現行法第一項同 第二三項如下 本法中華民國九十八年七月八日修正公佈之條文 自九十八年十一月二十三日施行 本法中華民國一百零四年十二月十六日修正公佈之第六十一條 自公佈後二年施行"},{"start":28720.988,"end":28739.342,"text":"委員 林月琴等18人提案第107條前段如下中華民國96年7月11日修正公佈之第38條自公佈後2年施行中斷與現行法中斷同後段如下98年7月8日修正公佈之條文自98年11月23日施行104年12月16日修正公佈之第61條自公佈後2年施行繼續宣讀修正動議 第一案第6條"},{"start":28750.393,"end":28768.778,"text":"於第一項據莫增列文字如下對於原住民族身心障礙者之鑑定應考量其語言文化特性並以其慣用語言進行必要時應由據原住民族文化敏感度之專業人員協助予以現行法同第七條於第二項據莫增列下列文字"},{"start":28770.038,"end":28794.175,"text":"對於援助民族身心障礙者之需求評估應考量其文化背景部落生活型態及地理環境特性評估專業團隊成員中應至少有一人具備援助民族文化敏感度或熟忍當地部落地區與現行法同第十條將第一項文字身心障礙社會福利學者或專家修正為身心障礙領域學者或專家"},{"start":28795.476,"end":28816.025,"text":"並於巨莫增列逗號 且應包含原住民族身心障礙者代表至少一人予以現行法同 第二十一條於第一項巨莫增列針對原住民族地區及醫療資源不足地區應會同中央原住民族主管機關結合在地醫療院所或衛生所規劃辦理到宅巡迴醫療復健或遠距"},{"start":28818.946,"end":28834.229,"text":"復健及遠距醫療服務予以現行法同第五十條增訂第二項如下前項服務於原住民族地區應結合部落文化特色及在地照顧資源並優先禁用具原住民族語能"},{"start":28835.376,"end":28854.597,"text":"援助民族與能力之服務人員以促進援助民族身心障礙者於部落內自立生活予以現行法同第53條 於第一項巨莫增列針對援助民族地區及偏遠地區因地理環境限制無法普及大眾運輸工具者交通主管機關"},{"start":28855.638,"end":28882.21,"text":"因專案規劃具無障礙設備之替代性運輸服務並針對援助民族身心障礙者提供優先預約或費用補貼予以先行法同第61條與第二項據莫增列直轄市縣市主管機關應建立手語翻譯及同步聽打之視訊援助服務機制以協助援助民族地區或偏遠地區之聽覺或言語"},{"start":28883.188,"end":28909.77,"text":"功能障礙者服務提供者應接受多元文化訓練並培育具援助民族與能力之手語翻譯及聽打服務人員予以現行法同第63條與第二項增列第三款如下三 與援助民族地區設立配合中央主管機關推動部落在地照顧政策且規模符合中央主管機關公告之標準者予以現行法同"},{"start":28911.397,"end":28929.507,"text":"第七十一條 於第二項據莫增列 但前項第五款之補助對於居住於原住民族地區或離島地區之身心障礙者 應額外提供或補助輔具評估 適配運送及維修所需之交通費用 必要時直轄市縣市主管機關應提供"},{"start":28930.788,"end":28960.188,"text":"定期到宅巡迴維修服務予以現行法同第七十四條 於地象巨莫增列 逗號亦不得將其障礙成因與其族群文化宗教或性別等特徵進行無科學根據之負面連結或標籤化對於援助民族身心障礙者之新聞報導應尊重其文化慣俗及隱私予以現行法同提案人委員盧憲一 連署人委員邱振軍蘇星權宣讀完畢"},{"start":28960.708,"end":28960.732,"text":"好"},{"start":28999.367,"end":29013.898,"text":"謝謝我們辛苦的藝術者的各位同仁不過也估計錯誤了原本說兩個多鐘頭結果選擇了快三個半鐘頭我們現在做一下決議身心家者權力保障法部分條文修正草案等二十七案"},{"start":29015.057,"end":29044.817,"text":"尚未審查完略我們一定擇期繼續審查那今天部長也在委員會有特別承諾不是月底就是明年的一月初那就請署長是不是今天這宣讀的27個版本是不是也可以儘早跟委員做一些前置的一些溝通那當然最好也是可以聆聽我們一些團體的我們身障夥伴團體的一些意見到時候我們在這個審查法的時候可以更加的"},{"start":29045.718,"end":29064.995,"text":"更加的符合大家都一個期待了這樣好不好尤其是那個對 這是我的章節了OK 好 謝謝署長好 謝謝我們與會所有的各位藝術者的先進還有線上關係的夥伴那我們本次會議到此結束現在散會 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166342","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166342","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0a9b7cc049bffb60dff56a78bd28eb122b77af859ec2087e62ffc6f3a5be630c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:13:04 - 12:22:28","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T12:13:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T12:22:28+08:00","duration":564,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.371593750000001,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.075968750000001,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.497218750000002,"end":55.414718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.752218750000004,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.35909375000001,"end":60.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.71721875,"end":64.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.60721875,"end":66.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.91909375,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.97659375,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.02721875,"end":78.53346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.53346875000001,"end":99.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.56721875000001,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.46159375,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.21784375,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.76346875,"end":155.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.85596875,"end":121.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.32409375,"end":123.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.61721875,"end":136.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.70284375,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.56346875,"end":159.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.22096875,"end":161.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.23784375,"end":172.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.01409375,"end":164.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.29596875000001,"end":170.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.75909375,"end":175.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.95284375,"end":193.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.04971875,"end":177.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.74346875,"end":192.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.90784375,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.05909375000002,"end":198.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.07596875000002,"end":198.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.54846875,"end":198.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.64971875,"end":198.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.70034375,"end":198.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.71721875,"end":198.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.75096875000003,"end":200.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.76784375000003,"end":203.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.12159375000002,"end":205.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.51784375000003,"end":222.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.79784375000003,"end":246.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.18659375000001,"end":259.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.02846875,"end":259.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.43346875000003,"end":259.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.46721875000003,"end":259.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.10846875000004,"end":266.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.11596875000004,"end":270.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.73971875,"end":273.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.03909375,"end":273.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.38471875,"end":276.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.66284375000004,"end":276.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.81471875,"end":276.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.96659375,"end":277.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.70909375,"end":278.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.07596875,"end":281.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.33721875000003,"end":281.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.60721875,"end":282.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.95721875000004,"end":283.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.85159375,"end":284.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.98221875,"end":285.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.31534375,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.92659375,"end":295.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.40221875000003,"end":325.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.52846875,"end":328.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.09346875,"end":335.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.11034375,"end":329.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.54034375000003,"end":335.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.11784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程序的繁瑣還是因為資源不足"},{"start":222.879,"end":248.174,"text":"我想不是嘛因為你有意願願意去提高這相關的預算所以導致案件難以開案需求無法被滿足我想我們不要再把身障朋友的這些對於個人的助理的需求推給長照對於身障者我們現在這些朋友們我們他們的申請者就是相當申請相當不友善這就是一個事實我想什麼時候能夠讓個人助理"},{"start":249.175,"end":259.214,"text":"變成是需求者說了算以人為本我想部長我們有關於個人助理的預算太少115年這個部分您覺得是不是可以再提高一些"},{"start":260.134,"end":282.297,"text":"因為我們的預算書已經送到了立法院所以這個還是看立法院的審查結果我覺得預算來自於公益彩券的回饋金這個裁員不太穩定拿公益彩券的回饋金去補助地方公益彩券這個部分的補助 也是有納入吧公益彩券的部分 裁員之一吧"},{"start":283.218,"end":294.873,"text":"應該很少吧全部都是公務預算嗎對是以這個編列在長照基金裡面的公務預算以公益彩券這個回饋金這部分這個資料我們再來查一下會後我們再來討論可以嗎"},{"start":297.715,"end":325.229,"text":"好可以嗎好那因為你現在說公務預算有4億多那因為我所查到的資料我們會後再來做一個相互交叉比對一下因為我有看到有這個部分的公益補助回饋金來補助地方那沒有關係在者日間照顧也被多重我們看到許多的身心障礙者抱怨根本用不到比如裝鼻胃管的幾乎用不到願意收案的日照機構部長如何補足這個缺口"},{"start":326.591,"end":326.852,"text":"日照機構 對"},{"start":329.748,"end":356.049,"text":"應該這個是屬於我們長照服務日間照顧 長照據點日間照顧對 我剛剛有說日間照顧對我們現在也看到有這樣子的一個問題那您覺得這個部分該怎麼去補足這個需求不足的部分嗎我們來了解一下看看是分佈的問題因為總數上一直在增加我們現在的長照據點已經超過15000點了那可能是對身障者的需求還有他的那個分佈"},{"start":357.35,"end":383.862,"text":"均衡的問題我們來進一步了解分析一下後續如果相關的數據可不可以讓我們知道一下好不好那部長我請速發部同仁一起好嗎謝謝部長就你了解目前多少網站及APP有去做無障礙的檢測並取得認證的一個標章這雖然是速發部的業務但是我希望部長您身為身障朋友大家長也應該略知一二您認為這些網站有多少去做這個無障礙的檢測"},{"start":386.954,"end":404.086,"text":"確實的數字我真的是沒有掌握不過我們希望從這個公務部門來率先做起所以在我們的這個修法版本裡面會希望把它列入除了網站還有所提供的APP之外都能夠"},{"start":405.208,"end":414.199,"text":"我先講一個數據讓您稍微知道一下就速發部裡面有個無障礙網路空間的服務網裡面就有這樣子的一個軟體無障礙檢測113年起到今我們APP送檢累積的件數83件"},{"start":420.828,"end":444.856,"text":"通過只有28件換言之有55件是沒有通過的一級這些的APP均不利於身心障礙者比如說像視障來使用如何具體改善這些狀況提升APP的無障礙環境我想這個部分應該衛福部跟速發部應該共同來努力那其他的面向比如金融"},{"start":445.936,"end":469.938,"text":"消費、通訊、學習、娛樂等各領域的無障礙APP又要怎麼做政府做不到又怎麼可能希望民間政府能夠來幫忙協助介入我想民間也需要政府的介入啊他們才可以有辦法ATM有波到的很少有較低位置的ATM也很少"},{"start":470.885,"end":494.796,"text":"但是對視障者而言電子書可以選擇的也很少所以部長就身心障礙者只是對於活著他只需要活著而不是有尊嚴的活在社區裡他們現在這樣的需求都沒有被重視我們該怎麼樣去協助處理這個剛剛這個委員也在垂詢到在行政部門的部分"},{"start":496.076,"end":518.279,"text":"已經有通過這個無障礙檢測的大概是一半50%那我們會再持續努力去提升希望更高讓包含這個政府機關之外那麼公營事業也能夠投入放在這個不論是網站或者是APP能夠符合無障礙者的"},{"start":519.2,"end":535.808,"text":"我想還是要希望我們能夠有機會去體驗一下啦因為視障朋友在領取這個ATM的時候他們在整個介面上整個按鈕上我想這個能夠再更加的給予他們更多的協助這個很重要我們都沒有這個需求但是"},{"start":537.128,"end":561.933,"text":"像我們健保的APP我們就通過這個無障礙測試就是因為知道這個就醫的需要是存在的所以我希望說有這樣子的經驗的你們衛福部能夠協助速發部去建置更完善的一些檢驗來督促各部會這些ATM 銀行業界這些能夠協助處理這個衛福部應該要幫助我們身心障礙者好 我們來協助"}]}},{"id":"166341","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166341","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0c1321174357cca73ff56a78bd28eb122b77af859ec2087e62ffc6f3a5be630c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:02:49 - 12:12:53","影片長度":"00:10:04","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T12:02:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T12:12:53+08:00","duration":604,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.90784375,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.46034375,"end":6.4772187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":7.337843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.98284375,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.657843750000001,"end":87.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.479093750000004,"end":48.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.83346875,"end":48.985343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.72596875,"end":129.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.45471875000001,"end":97.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.97096875000001,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.01284375,"end":116.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.47096875000001,"end":128.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.49596875,"end":131.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.25096875,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.02721875,"end":224.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.90721875000003,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.64159375000003,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.12471875,"end":279.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.34159375,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.71221875000003,"end":322.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.77971875000003,"end":311.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.10034375000004,"end":312.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.57221875000005,"end":316.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.96784375000004,"end":334.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.93221875,"end":343.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.23471875,"end":375.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.58784375000005,"end":352.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.37534375,"end":361.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.72534375000004,"end":363.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.99346875000003,"end":375.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.29284375000003,"end":385.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.35534375000003,"end":381.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.50659375000004,"end":408.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.08096875,"end":452.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.08659375,"end":455.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.60534375000003,"end":455.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.62221875,"end":456.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.38159375000004,"end":470.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.65534375000004,"end":460.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.35096875000005,"end":463.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.01284375000006,"end":472.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.64096875,"end":471.26534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.93596875000003,"end":473.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.25659375000004,"end":475.02846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.32409375000003,"end":473.37471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.65721875,"end":475.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.75409375000004,"end":476.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.64846875,"end":509.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.11596875000004,"end":482.20034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.36909375000005,"end":521.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.03409375,"end":520.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.7722187500001,"end":527.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.75846875,"end":529.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.5515937499999,"end":572.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.8528437500001,"end":601.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.2947187500001,"end":580.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.37784375,"end":588.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.01721875,"end":603.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.43909375,"end":603.24471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.226,"end":11.373,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長來 有請部長花園好"},{"start":11.684,"end":35.676,"text":"部長好 部長我今天想要請教就是有關我們復康巴士在現在進入這個超高齡社會那其實使用這個復康巴士的人其實也是越來越多那我先就以彰化這邊來講彰化現在目前有80輛的復康巴士那大型的巴士有兩輛其他都是78輛是中小型的那種復康巴士"},{"start":36.616,"end":55.549,"text":"那我想讲的就是说其实我们看到这样的一个数据从2022年的一个这个小的复旱巴士总共是服务13万多人次那2023年是16万多人次一直到2024年已经增加到18万多人次"},{"start":56.249,"end":70.985,"text":"所以然後再加上大的富康巴士每年服務大約也25萬人次可是我們知道說一般的民眾他如果有需要用到富康巴士然後用電話預約其實都很難預約到是叫不到的"},{"start":71.806,"end":87.068,"text":"那我想請教就是說部長我們知道就是這個復康巴士可能就是地方在運作那我想請教就是說像這樣子的話中央是不是有什麼樣的地方可以協助地方"},{"start":89.735,"end":113.847,"text":"當然我們在這一次的修法的版本裡面也特別去強化這個有關於交通協助的部分在地方政府上應該去強化當然過去我們有一些中央的補助款不過也受到新的財化法的影響這個中央能夠支配的預算其實是減少了"},{"start":114.267,"end":129.491,"text":"那地方是增加的所以我們會來督促這個地方應該要多益助在這種多元的交通協助不只是富康巴士他有那個多元計程車那種那個也可以來協助"},{"start":129.731,"end":155.092,"text":"那我今天是就富康巴士就是说民众一直在反映富康巴士预约不到叫不到其实在彰化县政府他这边自己也有做一个统计就是说2022年叫不到车的人次有2000多人到2023年有3800多人2024年就增加到5600多人次就是叫不到富康巴士"},{"start":155.993,"end":174.08,"text":"那這個比例就是說2024年比2022年這樣子看起來就是說叫不到車的已經增加一倍以上了所以我想請教就是說其實這個復康巴士在一般的這個身心障礙者或者是長者其實他們有這樣的一個需求"},{"start":174.74,"end":195.511,"text":"那另外就是說第二個就是富康巴士我們看到這個富康巴士其實即使是有車可是可能沒有人可以開車其實在地方有很多企業主他們也願意捐這個富康巴士願意捐喔可是車有了可是沒有人"},{"start":196.391,"end":224.217,"text":"那我们看到就是说在一般的这个我们富康巴士很多就是为外去经营嘛那为外去经营有一个状况就是说我们富康巴士的这个司机我们在人力银行看到的平均的薪资其实也都还蛮低的有的两万多块有的三万多块那这个富康巴士的司机他要肩负的可能他开着这个中小的这个富康巴士或者是大型的富康巴士"},{"start":225.057,"end":249.649,"text":"第一個他開在這個想要去載這個身心障礙的朋友或者是長者這個地方不一定有無障礙的空間那再來就是說這個富康巴士的司機他還要負責協助去幫這個身心障礙者或者是長者讓他能夠順利上到這個富康巴士來所以就是說我們希望"},{"start":250.749,"end":279.242,"text":"中央跟地方第一個協助這個復康巴士能夠更多啦再來就是說我覺得無障礙的這個空間無障礙的空間其實部長我希望就是說有時候你在地方多跑你可以發現就是說在社區當中也好或者是在這個馬路當中其實這個無障礙的這個空間或是無障礙的這個人行道其實是"},{"start":280.422,"end":283.471,"text":"其實是不足的啦或者是真的是重重的障礙"},{"start":285.439,"end":311.181,"text":"有一些朋友他如果用輪椅來代步其實他就是走在大馬路上面那我們有時候看到就是說輪椅跟車子是真道的其實是真的還是蠻危險的所以我希望就是說針對這一部分讓富康巴士能夠很順利的來接送這些身心障礙的朋友或者是長者"},{"start":312.182,"end":333.881,"text":"那我希望就是說中央跟地方能夠一起合作第一個就是說無障礙的這個空間或無障礙的人行道應該也要再度的再去盤點再來就是說我們這個富康巴士叫不到車的這個狀況其實是逐年在增加而且未來我們這個人口老化"},{"start":335,"end":357.519,"text":"人口老化真的是越來越嚴重所以我覺得這個問題不只是地方政府的問題我覺得中央這邊應該也要來協助跟委員說明我們在這一次行政院修法的草案裡面會把人行道道路的改善讓他身心障礙者能夠更行的方便這個有希望入法讓"},{"start":358.86,"end":385.463,"text":"地方政府能夠分年分期去不斷的改善這是一個那第二個呢是我們也在推動這個高齡友善城市那高齡友善城市裡面有一塊也跟行有關係所以這個我們會雙軌來並行推動是整個面對這超高齡社會整個城市的營造如何更友善那對高齡者對身心障礙者都是會有正面的效果"},{"start":387.024,"end":408.525,"text":"我当然就是说希望这部法例了之后真的对我们身心障碍的朋友是有很大的帮助那我刚刚有特别提到就是说这个福康巴士的这个时机其实真的非常辛苦他还需要去协助这些身心障碍的朋友要上车那这个薪资的问题其实我觉得应该也"},{"start":409.426,"end":425.215,"text":"我覺得中央應該也可以出一些力另外就是說我們看到現在富康巴士大部分都是委外去經營那委外經營這個業者委外經營的這個業者他要收到我們這個"},{"start":427.437,"end":451.832,"text":"這個款項其實都可能隔了四五個月就是這個業者他要自己再帶電所以我覺得這個狀況應該中央這邊也要去好好的關心就是說為什麼有的他就退出這樣的一個富康巴士的營運因為他收到你們的這個款項可能就是經過四五個月因為我們是用那個公益彩券公益彩券的這個補助"},{"start":456.819,"end":474.783,"text":"對我知道因為跟我們的了解就是說我們的補助款是一筆就撥下去那核銷的部分主要是在地方政府所以我覺得說你們補助錢給地方政府你們應該也可以要求應該也可以要求就是說"},{"start":475.803,"end":500.305,"text":"他不要再經過四五個月這個行政程序應該可以更快一點要不然你讓這個業者去帶電然後很多人就覺得說這個市場我還要自己帶電錢然後也不是一個很容易的一個工作所以我覺得既然我們有這樣的一個補助那你也可以去要求地方政府我的行政程序是不是要"},{"start":502.087,"end":527.229,"text":"這個縮短不要很冗長的這個行政程序然後這個層層關卡是不是部長可以做這樣的一個承諾我們來了解一下這個地方政府他的作業情形那如果有必要我們來協助建立一個統一的一個資訊平台讓大家的核銷可以更快是好那我今天就是針對我們富康巴士的這個部分我們希望"},{"start":528.803,"end":551.477,"text":"部長 我跟你說就是說未來人口老化真的是越來越嚴重的狀況而且這個也是中央跟地方我們一直在照顧我們都希望說我們能夠照顧所有需要被照顧的人不論是長者或身心障礙的朋友當然就是說從行方面讓他可以很容易的移動"},{"start":553.118,"end":572.519,"text":"我觉得这个也是我们的一个要照顾的其中一项这个只是其中一项而已而且我觉得这个也可以立竿见影就是说可以很容易去达到这样的一个成果而且让这些朋友让这些需要使用复抗巴士的人不再会觉得说"},{"start":573.26,"end":600.744,"text":"我卡電話預約結果我每打可能每一次打每次都預約不到的這種狀況可以改善我希望就是說中央跟地方一起合作讓這個復康巴士能夠更容易這個更容易使用而不是說我每次打然後我就是這個每次都跟您講說不好意思這個復康巴士已經都被預約完了對 好不好我們希望說從這個最簡單的方面去做一個改善"},{"start":601.124,"end":601.629,"text":"好 好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166340","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166340","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c07e019af7e418ebc1ff56a78bd28eb122b77af859ec2087e6ef00c3ddfecfa1d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:45:03 - 12:02:37","影片長度":"00:17:34","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T11:45:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T12:02:37+08:00","duration":1054,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.52409375,"end":4.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5578437500000004,"end":4.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.152218750000001,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.422218750000001,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.164718750000002,"end":27.874718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.21221875,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.49034375,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.67534375,"end":48.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.884093750000005,"end":55.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.937843750000006,"end":72.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.94784375,"end":87.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.21971875,"end":103.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.55909375,"end":120.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.82221875,"end":147.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.92721875,"end":162.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.09409375,"end":164.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.28784375,"end":166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.78534375,"end":171.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.68346875,"end":172.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.20221875000001,"end":176.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.91471875000002,"end":184.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.71096875,"end":187.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.72721875000002,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.81534375,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.82784375,"end":212.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.22971875000002,"end":218.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.74784375000002,"end":221.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.05159375000002,"end":219.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.27034375000002,"end":226.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.89846875,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.86846875,"end":231.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.64034375000003,"end":233.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.08284375000002,"end":235.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.39909375000002,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.93471875,"end":252.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.60534375,"end":241.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.04221875000002,"end":261.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.32471875000002,"end":256.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.10471875,"end":257.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.73659375,"end":264.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.33971875000003,"end":266.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.14534375,"end":268.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.46159375,"end":268.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.66409375,"end":268.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.68096875000003,"end":268.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.69784375,"end":269.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.26721875000004,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.22909375,"end":271.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.32596875,"end":273.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.42721875,"end":272.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.55346875000004,"end":275.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.01721875000004,"end":286.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.23971875,"end":290.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.39471875000004,"end":291.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.46221875000003,"end":295.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.65596875,"end":294.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.14096875,"end":312.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.85971875,"end":313.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.07471875000005,"end":315.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.70721875000004,"end":319.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.55909375000005,"end":321.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.13284375,"end":324.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.27971875000003,"end":329.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.10596875000005,"end":331.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","st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謝謝主席請部長 有請石部長劉委員好部長好 這個是 今天是我們委員會 衛生委員會第二次的針對身心障礙者權利保障法的懸打那主要原因是因為 憲政院的版本到現在還沒有送進立法院我想大家都 剛剛都有提過"},{"start":24.813,"end":44.187,"text":"那我要開場白之前我還是要期許啦 其實史部長就我的認知裡面你是應該對健保的整個制度是是非常清楚然後也讓健保可以穩定的和這個合理的這樣做這個需求者的給付的捍衛者然後再來也是一個最挺醫事團體醫護人力的"},{"start":47.58,"end":54.933,"text":"最好的一個部長那當然我更希望你是一個最照顧新興障礙者夥伴們的最好的部長"},{"start":56.047,"end":79.972,"text":"所以今天要來大修這個生權法這個歷史背景我還是希望部長可以多加以琢磨這69年訂定的殘障福利法然後一直到了這個1997年的時候 86年我們修正為身心障礙者保護法96年又再修正為身心障礙者權利保障法這整個過程是這樣然後到了這個"},{"start":82.633,"end":102.589,"text":"2011年也就是立法院第七屆我跟陳潔篤委員是大修了申請法而且我們是沒有利用委員會的時間自己在同一個時間出來從下午2點一直討論到這個晚上10點在隔壁802的會議室然後把相關的部會通通找來"},{"start":103.63,"end":128.862,"text":"大幅的修正然後修正完之後那個時候將近有31個條文通通做調整幾個面向就是對身障者的社會參與還有工作培訓然後就醫的權利交通運輸以及自力生活等進行這個修法的強化那在這個過程裡面我一直期待這樣的修法是會給身心障礙者權利身心障礙者的對象的這些夥伴"},{"start":129.502,"end":147.185,"text":"都可以因為這個整部法條的大幅的修正之後相對的所有的面向都可以往上提升不過現在要讓部長來看這樣的一個相關的一些數據你就知道現今這些身心障礙者的夥伴遇到什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":151.033,"end":172.071,"text":"已經有45年的歷史的一個生圈法然後剛剛已經有應該是林委員有特別提出來嘛對不對一個建造農人帶部車用餐要加收2000元這是一家高級餐廳你內容我就不再贅述了這在一個先進的國家怎麼會遇到這種事情這起義然後"},{"start":173.263,"end":186.979,"text":"只是因為多一個電動代步車多一個位置就必須要在原本三個人變成要跟他收取四人的定金跟低效的費用這是那我覺得這比較這個應該該用什麼形容詞"},{"start":192.935,"end":212.127,"text":"我想一下等一下再跟你講然後你再看一下我們身心障礙者權利保障法第11條的規定各級政府至少每5年要辦理一次調查收集我國身心障礙者之生活狀況保健醫療特殊教育就業與訓練然後交通及福利等需求評估"},{"start":213.291,"end":233.007,"text":"我要請教部長 我們有各級政府 先從中央講 中央有嗎五年檢討一次 評估 調查那全國22個縣市有照這樣做嗎那如果沒有照這樣做 那違反生權法第幾條各級政府應該受到什麼樣的懲罰 有嗎"},{"start":236.448,"end":263.924,"text":"可以簡單答我這個是沒有罰則啦沒有罰則那這個我們上一次是110年的時候我們有這個報告所以現在應該在進行下一期就明年就是五年到了嘛又要再做一次的調查相關的一些檢討跟評估嘛對不對但中央有照這樣做我還是要請教部長22個縣市有照這樣做嗎都有"},{"start":265.373,"end":275.729,"text":"如實都有照這樣做我們同仁說有啦都有記錄如果沒有照這樣做有什麼處理的方式"},{"start":277.205,"end":295.674,"text":"當然這個目前在這個本法裡面是沒有這個對應法則啦不過我想這個好 我就提醒部長嘛就是沒有對應的法則那是不是在這次修法中行政院的版本應該要把它納入好不好會來提醒各縣 不能做提醒這法律規範的條文裡面"},{"start":298.375,"end":315.408,"text":"不是只有做提醒的功能它不只已經入法了那如果各縣市沒有照這樣去做五年的一次的檢討跟相關調查評估那應該在我們申請委員裡面就必須要把它入法看如果規範 看如果處理 應該可以吧"},{"start":316.775,"end":330.926,"text":"我們研究看看啦 不能跟我講說研究看看你連調查的項目也應該要統一啦你這五年各縣市調查的項目有統一嗎 有一致性嗎我的理解沒有啦"},{"start":331.966,"end":349.262,"text":"對嘛 這不是很奇怪所以就是有城鄉的落差就是有像現在台北市遇到這麼多的狀況我等一下還有個案例剛剛那個案例也是在台北市那個高級餐廳在台北市在台北市可以遇到這樣的狀況你在一般縣市遇到這種狀況可能會更加嚴峻"},{"start":352.557,"end":378.212,"text":"再請部長看一下這是我調出的生意障礙者最近的這近一年的公共運輸使用情形105年你們的調報告有包含這一塊嗎公車它原本是30.25捷運22.39我就不再贅述了啦105對照一年通通平均下降通通平均下降這個表格很清楚嘛 部長可以看清楚然後"},{"start":379.423,"end":397.277,"text":"生意障礙者在使用大眾運輸的情況之下是全面性的降低然後零最公認應該是最便捷無障礙設計最完善的捷運系統這五年間都還掉了1.32%那你可以跟我講說因為疫情啦"},{"start":398.559,"end":423.511,"text":"是啊 你可以跟我這麼講啦我知道你一定會這麼講那我們就要看 後疫情的時候他是降還是跌 他還是升嘛 對不對請把那個書記調查清楚之後我們再來說嘛 好不好 可不可以不過這五年確實是如此嘛這是一件事情嘛然後再來我還另外一個悲觀公車不友善請部長再看這個報導"},{"start":425.225,"end":451.652,"text":"身心障礙者招司機賀賜 硬推輪椅這是議員的質詢 然後負申訴比例近七成在哪裡 又在台北市 首善之都餐廳是遇到這種狀況 然後公車又遇到這種狀況台北就發生這種事情了 國際之都欸那你你狂論其他的五都 狂論一般的縣市"},{"start":453.271,"end":481.205,"text":"又會對身心障礙者他們會遭受到什麼樣的這樣的一個對待我一直強調說打造一個無障礙者空間這真的不是只有在保障身心障礙者我們每一個人都沒有辦法保證自己不會雄雄意外雄雄中風雄雄需要使用到無障礙空間嘛對不對當你歧視身心障礙者的朋友的時候當你對這個無障礙空間用不一樣的思維在面對的時候坦白講他的心理是不正常的啦"},{"start":482.625,"end":510.702,"text":"他的心理是非常非常的不正常他是在歧視他自己啦他也有可能歧視他未來的親友可能會遭遇到種種的狀況所以今天要大修生權法我覺得不應該緩慢啦不應該再照理講更應該積極去面對剛剛陳副部長所回應很多委員台灣已經邁入超高齡的社會嘛這個緩慢會不會造成一個障礙"},{"start":511.807,"end":539.141,"text":"在行走的過程裡面 在搭車的過程裡面在上下這個公共空間的樓梯裡面他都會緩慢嘛 對不對那是不是屬於也是障礙的一種那怎麼會在台北車站還要有勞不能朝野的委員去跟我們深藏朋友去檢視這樣的一個國際的首都的車站還有這麼不友善的空間不友善的動線"},{"start":541.949,"end":563.523,"text":"所以當你看69年修了這個殘障保護法然後再改一個證明到現在然後在我們第七屆又大幅修正的情況之下你就做這樣來檢視你們的五年的檢討調查說一句比較粗魯的你們那種檢討調查所有項目全部通通是障礙的官方就障礙了"},{"start":567.938,"end":591.433,"text":"中央跟地方整個調查項目就不統一了就已經有障礙了你如何保障我們全國的身心障礙者這些夥伴這些朋友連修法提出來都必須要排兩次的隨意選的時候你們到現在還沒出來行政院 衛福部對不起我不客氣講你們也是在障礙啊思維障礙"},{"start":596.952,"end":619.862,"text":"心理障礙 修法障礙全部都障礙所以台灣的身心障礙者朋友怎麼會有一個友善的保護保障提高他們相對安全的一個環境你再看為什麼在這個自立生活裡面會搞得如此 如此的"},{"start":622.187,"end":641.835,"text":"讓人家覺得中央地方不同調認定標準不一不只如此剛剛部長有一句形容詞特別強調說不管是助理不管是長照怎樣的合併使用基本上都不排斥對不對但是這些夥伴們提出申請的時候不管在中央不管在地方"},{"start":643.559,"end":671.477,"text":"你們不排斥 但是他們就覺得很多次啊知道什麼狀況 部長可以看一下 僵化的自立生活服務選擇前被剝奪 隱私與尊嚴被侵犯然後僵化的規則 將得於三日前提出申請強制解讀應於三日前申請然後突發狀況常被以沒有計畫書 計畫書上沒有寫然後唯有來駁回 然後時數被切割無法互相挪用"},{"start":672.745,"end":688.801,"text":"且對於協助的定義是狹隘的委員會要變更議程都可以兩天前他們一定要三天前而且是因喔所以因三更前要知道他可能會感冒他可能會發燒他可能會跌倒"},{"start":696.616,"end":709.025,"text":"怎麼會有一個對生意障礙者權利保障法的一個法律已經大幅修正完之後然後我們希望他們可以走出來他們在走出來的過程裡面不管是就業不管是社區的參與"},{"start":709.909,"end":720.938,"text":"他都可以更加的這樣的自然安全然後政府可以更對他們多加以琢磨的這樣的去做鼓勵然後我們僵化到德變成英"},{"start":727.404,"end":753.722,"text":"所以就說他沒泡杯都要以後好三天後他開始是安裝他是感冒了他是怎麼樣怎麼樣怎樣有這樣的生權法然後生權法的法律修正是這樣讓行政機關降化到不行然後選擇權被剝奪使用者被禁止選擇或被強迫更換助理禁止與助理私下協調時間"},{"start":756.331,"end":782.287,"text":"這個真的是官僚程序淩駕於真正的需求之上嘛隱私血及尊嚴被侵犯單位任意拍照過度索取據悉名義的個人行程資訊車次菜色有沒有部長沒幫我打呼我知道你們底下單位有沒有這回事"},{"start":783.638,"end":805.735,"text":"甚至還有即時監控形成變動的行為為什麼要一個專章為什麼也是在幫公部門 中央跟地方真的有所依據然後可以靈活一些可以站在身心障礙者的對象的一個心境而且實際上的一個需求"},{"start":807.984,"end":825.134,"text":"而不是公部門在整個不管是計劃不管是預算執行的過程裡面好像這樣就會怎麼樣那樣就會怎麼樣可能是有司法性的問題如果申請法修成變成這個樣子那真的是障礙到不行了"},{"start":828.88,"end":855.683,"text":"障礙到不行了我今天講這些話不是針對部長啊我只讓部長知道整個原貌整個累積這一二十年來我們大無休法之後怎麼會搞到最後變成讓身心障礙者的朋友到行政院去抗議到立法院來陳抗然後當天又到台北火車站去一天有好幾個身障的團體在對我們中央政府在對地方政府表達訴求表達抗議"},{"start":858.979,"end":878.832,"text":"所以現在我們在這個委員會我們會覺得很心痛啦也覺得不知所云所以才今天會快速的要把生存網趕快排進來趕快來做這樣的一個討論嘛所以我希望部長是一個全方位的部長幾個面向裡面你都可以"},{"start":879.993,"end":900.987,"text":"在你這個位置上展現更大的這樣的一個power不過那個同理心那個站在他們的角度站在他們遇到的狀況你實際上去了解去理解之後你才知道他們為什麼今天要再走上街頭來對行政院跟對立法院表達這樣的一個抗議跟訴求"},{"start":902.349,"end":909.145,"text":"最後我再補一點 剛剛部長有答覆某一個委員講到回胖症的問題"},{"start":911.776,"end":925.182,"text":"我覺得剛剛很可惜啦因為今天是針對深圳的法我一直也提醒大家各位委員就針對深圳障礙者朋友遇到的狀況我們大家可以及時廣義因為我剛剛整個跟醫事組在討論這個20幾個版本總共要修的法條並審將近高達177條177條所以審查起來的時間還算是滿農場的"},{"start":939.622,"end":966.503,"text":"我們對一般的回胖者我們就會care我們就會在意的你知道這個身心障礙者有回胖症的比例有多高嗎行動不便長期累積下來然後運動量不足然後社區參與不夠然後就申請了一個自力生活申請一個助理個人助理反正就是障礙重重的情況之下"},{"start":969.623,"end":990.186,"text":"貧窮肥胖永遠跟身障者沒有辦法脫離如果今天要去處理一般的肥胖者部長在這邊能不能對我承諾對全國的身心障者朋友承諾我們先來處理這個有肥胖的身心障礙者先來幫助他們先來協助他們可以吧"},{"start":990.769,"end":1008.146,"text":"我認同這個在他的順位上應該更優先那我也必須表達對委員很感佩過去的這個修法上其實有很多的進步那只不過這個時過境遷還有很多我們需要努力的地方那特別是在"},{"start":1008.906,"end":1026.251,"text":"個人助理的申請跟審查這個當然權限是在地方政府不過我們會來協調讓各個地方政府在審查許可的時候能夠更自信也能夠兼顧到這個身障朋友們他們的需要這樣"},{"start":1027.371,"end":1052.257,"text":"謝謝部長答覆最後部長最熟悉的範圍我就讓你看身心在台北市的身心案子就醫過程遭遇到的這個困難的情形的比例就醫沒困難的45.6就醫有困難的是54.6其他就醫困難的原因就請部長詳閱啦我就不再贅述好 這是在台北市那其他縣市怎麼辦好 謝謝部長謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝委員 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謝謝主席 本席有請劉部長有請部長徐委員好部長 我們有看到內政部的報告一開始就講說我們這個宗教基本法是應該以憲法保障為核心所以是不是因為這樣所以沒有行政院的版本"},{"start":38.859,"end":63.407,"text":"報告委員其實在委員討論的過程當中大家都知道這個提出宗教基本法的概念在立法院已經橫跨至少五屆以上那表示說大家都沒有共識這個跟那個黨派沒有什麼太大關係那既然沒有共識的話現在貿然推動反而會有更多不同的問題會產生所以當委員說要審查這部分我們也"},{"start":68.048,"end":92.924,"text":"也沒有辦法去馬上處理因為這是上個禮拜才出來說要處理的部分 對對對我也了解因為我知道您第五屆第九屆第十屆嘛我在第八屆的時候很多人想推但因為沒共識就都都等於好像擱置嘛對對對那所以行政院這個會期也沒有預期會審所以也沒有行政院版本"},{"start":93.908,"end":114.922,"text":"但是我其实本席的立场是跟你们是一致的我们这个宪法保障为核心但是宪法保障为核心你们这边特别提了这个宪法23条讲说以上各条列举之自由权利除了"},{"start":117.284,"end":141.863,"text":"妨礙他人自由避免緊急危難維持社會秩序等等所以不得以法律限制之那你們這樣講的同時本席其實也想講其實選舉罷免創制復決也是憲法保障的所列的權利可是我們在選舉罷免我們有選罷法創制復決我們有公投法"},{"start":142.796,"end":156.975,"text":"那再來 人民有集會結社的自由所以我們有集會遊行法 人民團體法所以我們希望行政單位不要有行政怠惰的這種情況"},{"start":158.816,"end":184.124,"text":"既然民間或是民眾甚至民意代表這個立法委員代表著民意他要來進行這方面的一個基本法宗教基本法的擬定我還是很希望可以看到有行政院的版本所以如果召委有要進行逐條的時候我們希望行政院也能夠有行政院版本"},{"start":185.222,"end":201.616,"text":"那再来我想接下来最重要就是说既然我们要来讨论法条那所以首先本席先来确立我们也认为宪法的高度法治的明确性这个很重要所以本席请教部长"},{"start":204.039,"end":217.047,"text":"在中華民國憲法第13條的架構之下內在的信仰自由與外在的宗教行為請問哪一個是絕對保障那哪一個是可以法律限制的"},{"start":218.992,"end":246.631,"text":"我想内在的部分比较像是精神跟思想层次那他的保障是写在宪法里面所以他其实抽象性很强那也无法用其他的法律我的问题是我刚讲的内在的信仰自由跟外在的宗教行为哪一个是可以绝对保障的那就是内在对嘛那所以我们外在的宗教行为我们是应该用法律来限制之的所以我们有了这个共识"},{"start":249.873,"end":273.408,"text":"一定我相信部長也認同我們宗教的自由絕對不能置外於憲法還有法律但是現在我們就討論到這個基本法裡面第一條有關教俗分離是不是應該要寫進去教俗分離嘛"},{"start":274.574,"end":303.153,"text":"教徒分离的目的就是宗教自由不可置外于宪法跟法律部长你理解吗因为我们没有要进入主条所以我不晓得整一个不是我们没有我们现在就今天就排宗教基本法那所以我就在请教您的立场跟意见嘛所以教徒分离他应该要确立才对吧你们认同呢你们认同吗"},{"start":305.782,"end":310.498,"text":"因為我不曉得那個委員所說的教塾分離的真正的定義是什麼"},{"start":311.802,"end":338.029,"text":"你現在講的是就是當然教殊分離你也看不懂其實我看到以後我也是我也是去了解了很久教殊分離我想大概大家的認定應該就是宗教自由不可置外於憲法法律所以要教殊分離你如果教殊沒有寫進去那你其實就是變成好像你宗教你有了基本法以後你就變成"},{"start":340.069,"end":360.805,"text":"不受法律控制 這樣反而不行啦好 所以這個部長你這個要加把勁再來自主管理 自主管理你不敢寫進去那這個自主管理的部分就是說宗教我們要保障他的自由但是你又不給他自主管理那難道是要由執政黨管理嗎"},{"start":362.517,"end":383.9,"text":"所以这两点教徒分离跟自主管理一个是宗教不可以置外于所有的宪法法律第二个是你要保障宗教的自由你还是要给他有一个自主的空间好了本席我看部长还在研究没关系那也就是说我们"},{"start":385.407,"end":408.639,"text":"政府的手给他自主管理就是政府的手不要深进去管神明的事除非神明的事情变成了凡人的危险他危害了公共秩序如果他危害了公共利益甚至善良风俗政府就要管理但是如果没有这些前提之下给他们自主给他们有自主管理的这个"},{"start":409.159,"end":432.192,"text":"好那再来就是在我们今天讨论的三个版本就是召委有提出来我们的三个版本里面有一个版本一直写在法条里面满满的第二条里面都是适当的场所刚刚这个前一位委员也在质询适当的场所适当的管理者适当的慈善机构"},{"start":434.073,"end":459.964,"text":"我們很驚訝法律明確性原則可以用適當兩個字放進法條裡嗎那這個適當誰來認定難道是誰執政誰認定嗎所以這一塊本席有提修正動議我們希望適當這兩個字要刪掉我們要用不妨礙公共秩序與善良風俗來取代適當這一塊"},{"start":462.898,"end":475.553,"text":"无论我们是不是要进入主条还是怎么样我们希望行政单位也要有立场一定要有立场还有再来就是民众有一个忧虑部长这个法"},{"start":477.639,"end":503.276,"text":"這個有部分的民意代表開始推動但是我們還是要注意社會大眾的疑慮也就是說宗教它不可以是法外之地不可以是法外之地所以有些民眾的疑慮就會擔心宗教基本法會不會變成宗教霸王條款或者絕對不能變成邪教保障法"},{"start":504.181,"end":529.795,"text":"所以這個我們希望信仰的核心跟世俗的責任要切開所以部長我覺得這個宗教基本法您可能好像都還沒有特別關心沒有特別深入委員這樣講我覺得我只能跟你講說我們請教過很多宗教團體不同教派的宗教團體是大家沒有共識"},{"start":530.936,"end":545.274,"text":"那既然沒有共識我們大概站在我們的低度管理的立場我們就不輕易去說這個贊成這個不贊成更何況委員您所提的部分是委員或者是立法院所提的版本所以我很難回應說這個好與不好不是"},{"start":546.215,"end":574.389,"text":"但是你要站在行政單位你要有行政單位的立場我們剛有提過我們認為現在貿然推動宗教基本法可能不是那麼的成熟可是我已經進入細項針對某些立場不是進入基本法是每一種法律案像您剛有提到的就是所謂的教俗分離所以我在講的是宗教基本法的這樣的一個概念那行政單位的立場你要有立場啊"},{"start":575.249,"end":592.199,"text":"不是嗎我們的立場就是根據我們現在的憲法上面我們用低度的這個管理但是呢盡量來服務但是不要去觸犯到其他的法律為主對啊但是如果你把它寫進去的話你會覺得說是高度管理"},{"start":592.759,"end":615.041,"text":"而不是自治治理那這個就是最難的地方就是說這條線要畫在哪裡所以我們現在有很多出現需要解決的部分的話就盡量在法律授權範圍內的暫行條例或者是一般的管理辦法或是輔導的方式來處理我覺得這樣子才能夠容納更多對於宗教有不同想法的人"},{"start":615.741,"end":632.152,"text":"所以您这样从您的回答就表示说有部分的人想要推宗教基本法你们是连宗教基本法整部法你不管这个讨论不讨论你对整个法你是否决的"},{"start":633.673,"end":652.522,"text":"委員我還是沒有辦法接受你這樣的說法我們不是否決其實我也沒贊成啊我一直跟你表達我的理想你的顧聊都聽得很清楚沒有沒有沒有不是這樣子委員我們不是我們不是這麼斬釘截鐵我們已經講過我們問過所有在宗教界他們是長久以來一輩子都在宗教界服務"},{"start":653.382,"end":675.184,"text":"我們要尋求最大的公約數現在這個最大的公約數並沒有在宗教基本法這裡面產生的很多人有不同的意見我們都尊重但是既然沒有產生我相信立法院也是一個整體的一個決策的範圍內你不是絕大多數人都有希望通過的一個最大公約數的話這樣通過這樣不是置私欲焚嗎"},{"start":676.185,"end":698.92,"text":"所以我們沒在說通過不通過我們在講說討論我們也很多法條是開始討論他並可能他就直接保留或者是直接討論一半他並沒有說一定通過或者甚至二讀三讀沒有耶而在討論的時候大家把整個社會的意見包含當然行政單位你們有徵詢"},{"start":700.081,"end":726.132,"text":"所以我们才要讨论所以我相信很多人听到刚刚本席所讲的我就是针对几个因为谈到宗教基本法大家会有的疑虑包括我刚刚讲不希望宗教基本法变成邪教保障法更不希望宗教基本法变成宗教霸王条款是不是所以这些立场我们都要把持住所以本席在讲的是这一块你这样了解吧"},{"start":726.892,"end":754.853,"text":"所以那当然还有一些是因为我们看到今天放进来的法条有一些它属于比较模棱两可宗教没有宗教基本法但是如果有宗教基本法也不能变成这个宗教基本法最后这个条文内容都是你政府都用什么适当适当那不就都听你政府来判定这个适当我在跟你谈的是这一个"},{"start":755.916,"end":784.887,"text":"然后再来那个我们好像是第几条第四条也是什么损害他人权利之余这个之余但有一些我们会认为是不是民进党委员的版本是代表你们比较支持的如果没有你刚刚已经讲了这个宗教基本法你从头到尾你就是不推也不赞成就对了那我们连讨论的空间都没有"},{"start":787.844,"end":810.765,"text":"部長你聽懂我的意思嗎要回答是嗎我已經多次表達站在行政機關的立場我們就是以各個宗教團體裡面的代表意見為主在還沒有尋求有共識之前的最大公約數之前現在貿然推動會造成更多其他的問題所以你的意思就是說連討論都不能討論"},{"start":812.566,"end":834.125,"text":"我們現在在討論啊所以我在跟你講討論的點你完全沒回應你完全無法回應那沒關係這個我本席就是表達我們站在每一個人大概我們都面對的群眾大家的疑慮我們既然討論到這個議題我們還是要把這個議題"},{"start":836.997,"end":863.472,"text":"如果往前推不管他通不通過往前推我們還是應該要就一些問題來釐清但是部長你的態度我只能說行政怠惰然後呢這個完全對我們立法院在討論這個事你不僅行政怠惰還有你也不深入報告委員這個我無法接受我們其實跟各個部會還有很多委員尤其是宗教委員討論過非常多"}]}},{"id":"166314","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166314","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c054fdce14e9849548129e80178479e3604f1120d908022d4d9aab6c45daf424f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:11:32 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是不是他們覺得這個政策可能效果不彰是不是拜託部長在這邊跟大家說明一下老宅延壽的用意以及它其實裡面最高可以補助到960萬其實是一個非常高額的補助謝謝委員的關心 委員非常關心我們的住宅政策"},{"start":59.537,"end":76.593,"text":"其實老宅延壽跟督庚跟危老三個都會並行但是在處理督庚跟危老的時候因為他在建築申請的程序比較慢或者是要統合比較多不同的意見但是老宅延壽的話只要他合乎耐震的標準的話包括他瓷磚脫落"},{"start":78.695,"end":94.384,"text":"或者是要家裡頭有老人家需要更換管線才會影響到消防安全的我們都把它列入可以來申請那如果說為了照顧老人家那你需要補這個電梯外掛式的或是內附式的話呢"},{"start":95.024,"end":109.201,"text":"我們最高確實是可以補助到960萬那我們在每一場說明會的時候來的人真的非常的多那各式各樣的問題也不少但是那個因為這是特別法通過的所以我們希望在三年內可以用這個50億的經費來輔導全台灣的人來處理這一塊"},{"start":114.847,"end":141.708,"text":"那因為在處理的過程當中我們也委託各縣市地方政府的建築師他們到現場去講的時候我們也請到說請現場那個能夠溝通的母語去講所以村里長也好或者是對這個有興趣來的都非常的踴躍那所以我們就按照原來的方式繼續推動那我們推動老宅延壽的其他的目的還有都更跟危老也會一併來進行其實都沒有任何焊隔的地方"},{"start":142.128,"end":158.724,"text":"好 謝謝部長的說明因為這兩天其實消息出來之後南部也有很多鄉親都在問我們說對 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是不是這樣我講的是不是廟的必然"},{"start":374.4,"end":380.064,"text":"超商又那麼多那是怎樣定義到這樣跟你說的說他的地有問題啦跟他的財產有問題啦跟你要怎樣去協和啦有辦法協和我們就再來講基本法你沒辦法協和問題有很多啦雖然我是教育的但我尊重我們的廟因為廟有很多"},{"start":404.155,"end":416.481,"text":"人的信用,我們就是要去處理好有的廟,是做錢書,辦展弱勢團體的有的是什麼,你知不知道?騙食騙錢的市長你知不知道這個?所謂本事跟你說的就是,好的我們怎麼去付賭不好好的水冷電機啊都沒有運作"},{"start":432.762,"end":434.424,"text":"那有問題耶 市長是這一筆來 你要怎麼處理"},{"start":438.663,"end":441.464,"text":"嗯 有人報告 其實我也很關心 部長也很關心這個議題其實我們現在有叫人說 我們包括說這個月17號邀請到地方政府的 他們的客廳跟主辦的 我有一個公事人做出了這個議題 就是說 要針對戰刑條例 就是說土地變更 要讓它復讀不要讓他們覺得說 在國土安全範圍之內 要花這麼多錢 花這麼多時間 它就乾脆沒辦法辦"},{"start":466.038,"end":484.026,"text":"我們來針對這個意義來克服 來協助他們市長 有的沒辦的 我們怎麼去來用在不違法當中我們要中央的角色要去多協助第五端子的 中間30%都沒有運作"},{"start":488.803,"end":496.428,"text":"我們沒有運作 你們要讓他了解這長期以後沒有運作到底蘇貞昊他會做什麼啦你也要關心一下了解你們是感到吃捏對不對 不是幫他這樣也不好有時候阿公阿姨在那邊 男朋友什麼這很壞的捏 一定會有長期啦所以蘇貞昊會做什麼對不對 所以他那裡會說"},{"start":519.262,"end":536.026,"text":"廟的基本法裡面有很多問題老人我們也要幫忙現在我們的法是可以牽制他10點以後不能幫忙如果廟的幫忙覺得很老人我們也很開心但是10點過是我們要休息的時間你如果這個法規"},{"start":547.574,"end":554.941,"text":"沒法不聽啦一般家庭 你也不知道他啦再來未來 他如果開一間廟室啦要做病的人啦 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謝謝部長那個我來講一下曾經是你的選區現在是我的選區的左營萬年紀左營萬年紀在你擔任副市長的時候開始大力的去整合我想要聽一下副市長聽一下劉部長當初整合的現況他是"},{"start":39.522,"end":67.498,"text":"在連池談判所有的廟宇然後由高雄市政府的民政局邀集這些廟宇一起來參與那我們把它做成一個萬年祭讓整個左營的廟宇文化特色結合觀光讓所有高雄市甚至外縣市的人來辦到今年已經十幾年了那今年度也是由原地廟來主辦"},{"start":69.816,"end":98.294,"text":"這一個萬年祭就是把所有的這些廟宇有一個特色跟政府的跟政府的政策的走向慢慢走向這個萬年祭你不會看到大量的煙火跟鞭炮跟所有的廟宇的這個他們可能在遶境或者是他們可能要辦活動的時候傳統的印象會不太一樣這個就是高雄市政府當初劉部長你跟所有"},{"start":100.826,"end":128.816,"text":"廟宇的這個共同用心推動今天的這個成果啦那所以今天當然跟今天的這個宗教基本法我覺得是息息相關因為當我們這些廟宇他分開辦活動的時候大家比什麼比熱鬧怎麼樣熱鬧放鞭炮放煙火怎麼樣來表達我對這個廟宇的這個支持"},{"start":129.571,"end":158.708,"text":"我就是設立砲台我來放鞭炮那部長萬年紀已經這麼進步了齁那這個宗教的這個基本法如果下去的話那所有的這些我們其實地方政府跟這些廟宇都保持很良好的互動跟溝通啦如果要遶境的時候總是要跟警察局第一個先申請這些路線嘛那第二個警察局會勸導什麼會勸導說你們的煙火你們的鞭炮要怎麼放"},{"start":159.743,"end":189.206,"text":"這個大家要取得一個共識那比如說共識如果晚上九點以後還是有這一些那麼熱鬧的活動的話那警察局當然必須要跟環保局必須要都全程出面監控如果萬一真的影響到人的時候必須要做一些協調必須要做一些溝通罰絕對不是我們現在主要的目的是讓這一個宗教活動可以跟社會可以共存可以讓社會也可以接受這個宗教基本法"},{"start":189.639,"end":193.476,"text":"如果通過以後部長會不會抵觸到這些相關的規定"},{"start":194.296,"end":219.306,"text":"如果現在的條文太籠統而且對於自由的定義是什麼有點像是說以宗教為名的話他所產生的各種各式各樣的這種禮俗活動等等這些如果侵犯到其他的包括教育勞動或者是環保等等的時候就變得不受控制那這個不是一個宗教基本法想要推動的基本的方向"},{"start":219.966,"end":247.907,"text":"那那個李委員非常謝謝你就是說在左營的這個萬年祭的這個部分我們有考慮到包括文化的因為萬年不是只有左營還有鳳山所以有跨區域的還有是跟社會局譬如說我們要舉辦這些活動的時候你會請這些弱勢團體過來類似這樣子的方式那就表示說把我們宗教這種教化世人而且是照顧弱勢"},{"start":248.687,"end":269.626,"text":"這樣子的一個基本的核心理念把它放到裡面去所以包括原地廟等各宮廟的負責人都覺得願意投入而且我知道他們花的這個金錢啊還比這個政府補貼的更多那這樣子的熱鬧的活動的話變得不是只有我們這個社區裡面應該出現的也變成是高雄市結合觀光"},{"start":270.346,"end":297.808,"text":"非常有用的一個活動那我覺得這樣子相當好如果可以繼續推動會像剛剛有些委員提到譬如說像苗栗的這個這個超跑的模組的這個活動他就越來越多的這個國內外的觀光客會進去那這樣對廟來講也越來越輕啦所以我覺得如果有這樣個跨文化領域跨不同的領域然後他是遵守台灣的規範的話在台灣一定會受到相當多的歡迎"},{"start":298.648,"end":327.726,"text":"對但是這個活動沒有牽涉到目前我們討論到的這些可能有這些宗教基本法的草案沒有都完全沒有那還是可以規劃的非常好有特色但是這個草案他主要要規劃他主要要可能會影響到的範圍有在根據部長就教大概宗教團體法或者是宗教法人法或者是宗教這個基本法就是來定義什麼叫"},{"start":328.7,"end":348.662,"text":"宗教自由什麼叫宗教光是宗教的定義我覺得可能就會必須要花很多的時間跟精神來討論因為外界有很多目前我們把宗教跟勸募跟詐騙跟組織沒有辦法去分辨的這一些"},{"start":349.212,"end":377.177,"text":"那會不會就跑進這個宗教基本法來受它的規範那會不會有相關的剛剛其他委員有質詢到的這些土地的問題因為這樣子有大量的國土可能因為這個宗教基本法而影響到可能未來的國土計劃法影響到水保法影響到建築法那會不會影響到國家公園法那會不會我剛剛我講的這個噪音管制法"},{"start":378.032,"end":398.16,"text":"泡足煙火管制條例甚至消防法等等這些問題都會包含在這個宗教基本法裡面的宗教自由以及傳道自由以及傳播自由裡面我想這個是我們必須要很認真的去看每一個法條可能會造成的影響"},{"start":399.076,"end":427.556,"text":"那所以現在內政部包含各縣市政府的民政單位對於宗教的土地財產財務等等尤其是財產財務等等是採低度管理嗎但是如果藉由這個法以後他會造成什麼樣的結果可能想像的結果部長第一個所有的內政部的宗教諮詢委員還是希望來審慎研議這個比例大概是怎樣九成以上"},{"start":428.618,"end":456.855,"text":"九成以上的中華民國宗教諮詢委員希望宗教基本法沒有共識之前不要貿然推動應該是理由是這樣的那如果說有些委員說那你們內政部要去制定一個宗教基本法可是我們宗教基本法訂定下去的時候就會有我們剛剛所說的25種台灣的法律要把它納到裡面去那你納到裡面去的話呢就變成非常高度監管"},{"start":458.288,"end":473.033,"text":"那既然是非常高度監管又並不符合我們憲法裡面保障這個宗教信仰的自由所以我們說在這個取捨之間是不是慢慢推進會比較好那有些戰刑條例的部分大家宗廟團體或宗教團體所碰到的困擾"},{"start":473.473,"end":501.105,"text":"只要他是正向的在推廣宗教的那我們盡量來服務他像剛剛我有提到他是老廟可是碰到新的建築法規那中間一定會有一些緩衝的方式可以來處理那我們就盡量來服務就這樣謝謝所以我們內政部對宗教對這個看法還是採取高度自由但是要符合台灣信仰宗教高度自由宗教高度的自由但是還是要符合台灣目前"},{"start":501.55,"end":509.397,"text":"的相關的這些法令包含土地是那包含兵役或者是包含環境等等的這些我們都還是要繼續兼顧是謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166311","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166311","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c00a1e5172f6afa36e129e80178479e3604f1120d908022d4ddff46f77a105961a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:41:09 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之處不知道部長你的看法"},{"start":39.117,"end":62.999,"text":"謝謝委員的關心其實我們我們都知道台灣的宗教其實他的環境是非常多元的但是要做到管理確實不容易所以我們的公務系統的人都是基本上以服務為主你只要不要觸犯其他的法律上面應該有的規範的話我們大概都不會去特別去這個高度監理"},{"start":64.771,"end":86.513,"text":"對啦 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其實也是委員在當召委的時候我們在上上個會期有通過目前我們去跟很多宗教團體接觸的結果他們希望我們繼續輔導"},{"start":255.231,"end":268.716,"text":"所以很有可能到明年6月的時候呢我們會可能會繼續往下再繼續延長這個時間因為畢竟在輔導的過程當中每個廟宇所出現的狀況是不一樣的那我們要跟地方政府來結合"},{"start":271.764,"end":287.92,"text":"不只不一樣而且樣態也非常不一樣是的師長我請問一下你除了以自然人這個我們可能要延長之外那廟宇的登記的問題啊還有其他不屬於這些類型的吧"},{"start":288.937,"end":308.736,"text":"根委報告 其實很多的樣態在寺廟登記 很多早期都是用自然人民益登記包括農地的部分 我就說排除自然人民益 這個還有很多樣態吧 對現在包括說 在農地上 你要土地怎麼變更為寺廟所有 這是很大的一個議題"},{"start":309.605,"end":313.607,"text":"所以我們現在內政部門部長非常重視所以我們剛好國土計劃法在延長6年那我們會積極來輔導包括地方縣政府來輔導我們重要團體因為這6年在非都市部分或都市計劃趕快做變更包括我們要作為就是在讓他的預算能夠減少他所花的機會減少他的時程可以縮短所以我們會來努力這個部分"},{"start":335.361,"end":356.703,"text":"除了农地上的还有很多还有很多他有的不一定是农地他有的也可能他的庙人家在那边那后来政府给人家化为什么环保用地化为什么我觉得这个都可以一并解决一次通盘的去了解吧"},{"start":357.163,"end":364.967,"text":"是包括那你們有沒有什麼具體的想法是我們會通過我們宗教執行委員來聽聽看各個各個地方的意見然後我們包括我們的同仁也有會診的會診相關資料然後我們會積極來討論來研議包括說我們包括國路署的包括地政的問題包括大家研商怎麼去溝通來解決他問題還有一個財稅問題在中央團體他非常關心他的稅然後我們"},{"start":387.136,"end":415.891,"text":"我們先不用講到財稅啊我現在是跟你講這個用地的問題嘛對不對我覺得其實啊問題也沒這麼複雜啦你就是民國幾年或什麼有一個標準人家之前寺廟就在了對不對還是啊這種的我們要不要去解決你總不能說從明天之後啊然後呢他明知道這裡不可以的那他要去那裡"},{"start":417.076,"end":444.407,"text":"這個我們就有點說不過去但人家在之前就有了這個我們可以想辦法解決吧我覺得應該要稍微先切割吧你覺得呢各位報告我們現在有一個就是崇化農地的特農區的部分我們之前也有幫他解套但是事實上他申請率還是不高但是我們會繼續來協助這個特農區的在我們這個土地法實施之前的"},{"start":444.927,"end":471.017,"text":"我知道啦 你都沒有take到我的重點你一直在跟我講農地我都已經跟你講到不只農地了那你還一直在講農地你都沒有回答我的問題啊我請我們等下同仁再補充啦那個委員所講的部分我了解就是說他本來已經在那邊那後來不管是都市或非都才把他化成其他宗教不能夠使用的用地那這個有時間先後所以每個個案我們會去會刊"},{"start":472.257,"end":498.937,"text":"會看出來確實像委員所提的這個狀況的話我們就想辦法解決那我們的同仁他們有處理過我先讓同仁跟好 你簡單的說一下各位委員報告這裡是國土署那現在如果是在非都市土地上面如果是在各縣市第一次實施編定管制之前就已經存在的寺廟是可以由寺廟檢據這個管制前的合法的證明文件向各縣政府去申請"},{"start":499.657,"end":518.084,"text":"跟正邊定為建築用地那現在是有這樣子的機制可以來做處理我知道 但有一件事情我們都忽略了地方政府也忽略了很多寺廟的負責人其實都蠻資深的年紀都蠻大的了"},{"start":519.414,"end":542.615,"text":"我跟你講 你政府要他去申請 他根本不知道啊他也不懂啊 問題是出在這裡啊那我們就是喔 在辦公室裡面這樣看都忘了這些人 他其實不懂這些他每天在聽收音機的而已 他也沒有看報紙然後政府也 因為他也沒有登記也沒有寄通知單給他"},{"start":543.856,"end":571.282,"text":"現在有很多的問題是這一種的那我覺得身為主管機關如果像這種我們應該要想辦法去解決才對啊那個委員我非常了解你現在講的部分我非常了解一百年兩百年的老廟的部分或者是說它的住址已經不在了我跟你說我們可以這樣子第一個會刊很重要但在會刊的過程當中我們的行政單位可以去取取得當時的航照或空照圖"},{"start":572.922,"end":596.147,"text":"來確定 讓做這樣的鑑定鑑定出來確實是這個樣子的話我們就會簽辦這個公文 而不是說你一定要來申請 我們沒有 沒那麼細心啦我們還是非常靈活會處理這個部分 所以我說我們的中理師的相關單位是以服務為主 而不是以管理為主因為這個後面人家要我剛說有一個重點就是他"},{"start":597.461,"end":618.52,"text":"之前連來申請登記什麼他都不知道要這種的非常多尤其是在那個非六都以外的更多我覺得這種的我們應該要先想辦法幫他解決甚至我都覺得說他如果是這樣其實只要這個廟"},{"start":621.409,"end":647.386,"text":"他有給我們竊決如果你這塊地你永遠是用寺廟使用的我們都可以幫他解決那如果以後你要賣掉你要什麼的你這塊地啊我們就會想辦法去限制他我覺得可以有一套的做法好那個謝謝委員的指教委員非常了解這個狀況我們會跟地方政府來找到一個大家都可以一起來合作的方案好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":651.661,"end":653.183,"text":"謝謝張宏祿委員的發言 接下來我們請"}]}},{"id":"166334","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166334","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c01e89a82f7f442f61ed0cecc406237e964f1120d908022d4d025346619b12521c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:43:53 - 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所以本席当看到这个状况的时候曾经跟客家电视台有询问过但是他跟我说啊用黑白照片是为了凸显客家电视台的识别但是我个人是觉得这个钱要花在刀口上虽然钱不多经过我了解之后呢他们花了十万块找人来拍摄来发妆"},{"start":104.719,"end":132.107,"text":"但是我就覺得很奇怪如果你要化妝那為什麼要用黑白照片如果要黑白照片根本不用化妝了是吧我只是要強調就是說我們在公部門有時候用錢喔還是要稍微的思考一下像這樣子的一個狀態底下呢我個人我知道有一些同仁會認為說用黑白照片感覺上不太吉利但是我沒有這麼的迷信但我個人認為是識別證識別優先"},{"start":134.088,"end":147.984,"text":"再來是如果今天要創新要有創意的時候應該不要遮擋住原本的需求那麼我認為這樣的一個黑白照片其實是不符合識別證所以我會認為這筆錢的花費是有質疑的"},{"start":151.287,"end":164.399,"text":"這是我首先要先提出來的不知道部長有沒有注意到這個問題但部長您不用回答我只是希望在質詢台上讓您看到就是說官網集團就像剛剛講的非常的大那麼有的時候是不是在用錢的部分"},{"start":166.479,"end":194.06,"text":"要稍微的留意一下尤其是在這種現在我們其實都要用臉部來掃描的時候居然有一個黑白的狀況出現但是雖然我點了客家電視台這件事情但是我也必須要給客家電視台一個鼓勵就是他們製作的這個客家廚房確實達到了非常好宣傳客家以及宣傳我們台灣文化的一個部分不過他的第一季在台灣拍"},{"start":195.021,"end":219.409,"text":"第二季拉到了韓國首爾那麼我會必須強調喔其實他的最重要的工作跟最重要的部分是打造台灣形象更重要的是能夠導流回台灣讓韓國人能夠更喜歡來台灣觀光那麼截至目前為止來台灣的以2025年1到9月第一名還是日本"},{"start":220.009,"end":234.87,"text":"第二名是香港那麼第三名是韓國所以我想請問的是像當你把人拉到了首爾去的時候有沒有辦法可以有更導流的方式讓大家感受到這是台灣"},{"start":236.332,"end":256.415,"text":"然後大家會想到台灣來玩因為所有的旅遊節目坦白講我都是因為看到這個地方好玩所以我想來那麼在這個部分有沒有更實質更實際的在第二季當中因為我也必須講請韓星然後呢這樣的宣傳肯定是砸大錢我也同意就是第二季能夠上到"},{"start":257.696,"end":272.726,"text":"韓國的LTT平台是一件好事但是這個導流的部分有沒有跟觀光相關的包括觀光署來做其他更多的配合呢 部長請這個客台的這個台長來報告 向台長"},{"start":275.287,"end":301.143,"text":"委員好 謝謝委員首先我想要跟委員講到就是除了剛才委員有提到我們在11月28號以及在前天已經上了韓國CJ旗下的這個OTD平台TVing之外那透過他們在韓國因為同仁告訴我他們在韓國的市佔率可能有55%那我們就很期待如同委員的資訊顯示在去年其實來台的第三名也是韓國超過100萬"},{"start":302.904,"end":326.221,"text":"那很多韩国的朋友来到台湾他会指明要吃我们的这个卤肉饭要吃我们的这个蚵仔煎要喝我们的珍珠奶茶那因此在客家厨房这个节目当中呢我们就大量的使用每一集有两到三道的客家菜一开始第一集我们先把所有台湾的食材包括我们的福菜啊包括我们来自桃园的哈姆龟直接运送到韩国去"},{"start":326.701,"end":355.143,"text":"那因此我们期待接下来这每年至少超过100万的韩籍游客在韩国看了客家厨房由丽特 由他们的校园或者喜饭韩国有160万人追踪的这个吃播的播客他的blogger看到他们的节目原来知道台湾不只有牛肉面不只有这个我们其他的卤肉饭这些小吃也知道他来台湾之后可以指名吃我们的面趴饭也就是我们的新谱的板条或者是喝我们的客家擂茶"},{"start":355.943,"end":382.978,"text":"這個內容的部分我想期待大家去看啦我其實要質詢的部分就是希望台長在這樣的一個資源花下去之後能夠跟觀光能夠做一個結合跟搭配不要只是節目播出去節目播出去有明星代言肯定有它的效果那主席站起來了我跟主席借最後的一分鐘為什麼請胡董事長在這裡是因為剛剛很多人都問到了台灣plus這件事其實在場有許多都是我的媒體算前輩了"},{"start":383.678,"end":412.96,"text":"所以對於新聞的部分其實做新聞下筆下去一定就有立場所以我不針對台灣plus的新聞來做批評或者是質詢因為這個有時候看的人也有他自己的政治判斷但是就以客台現在來製作這個客家廚房來講台灣plus我們今天有特別寫到就是未來會製作所謂包括深度的紀錄片而且希望能夠把這個所謂台灣地緣政治或相關的部分加入喔"},{"start":413.26,"end":434.839,"text":"在這邊我提醒董事長就是像客家廚房這種類紀錄片式的實境節目其實台灣plus也可以做而且用英文的方式做可以讓更多人知道另外您一定知道有一部電影叫造山者它講的是台灣晶片的未來其實當我在看這部電影的時候我其實很想告訴您造山者其實才是台灣plus應該做的"},{"start":435.419,"end":460.622,"text":"而不是讓媒體人或者是影視者他們來做因為造山者我覺得唯一遺憾的就是他是用國語發音如果用英文發音可以讓更多人知道可是像這樣的內容我認為其實才是董事長跟底下台灣plus應該要處理的因為處理新聞很容易就會有爭議做紀錄片深度報導其實是比較不會被畫上政治立場"},{"start":463.158,"end":480.641,"text":"谢谢文的提醒我们在这方面的确认为是很重要的任务目前也跟包括像新加坡的MediaCorp等等在做这方面的合作之前我们也做了台湾的半导体的纪录片的确获得非常大的国际回响相信这一块我们要继续努力"},{"start":481.141,"end":505.91,"text":"那那個合作的美光的這個紀錄片包括像現在如果有許多的包括像黃仁勳他們要來這些紀錄的過程我都認為是台灣PLUS其實必須要提供的因為這個是一般的電視台可能沒有能力去做追蹤但是我自己認為台灣PLUS就是一個很好去找題材把吳道友整個整建的過程中我覺得這個任務我也希望台灣PLUS把它放在心裡謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":510.368,"end":510.793,"text":"謝謝林楚茵"}]}},{"id":"166333","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166333","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c08656d0f3fb94a004ed0cecc406237e964f1120d908022d4dc47a71c4ccfca2305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"12:38:48 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到現在還沒有辦理所以這個部長什麼時候可以報行之宴"},{"start":289.4,"end":312.653,"text":"关于这个我觉得目前为止还没有要停的原因是刚刚我们前面讨论了很多就是有关公共电视预算它其实一直不够我们法定预算是9亿广电基金就是8千万至少要3亿左右每次的理由都是这个了是的确是每次的理由的确是但是但是这个理由一直还存在部长"},{"start":313.635,"end":341.46,"text":"但是我前面讲了那么多就是说这个经费要停给公司公司你另外可以去筹经费然后这些经费要作为有线广播电视的普及发展尤其是弱势族群偏远地区那个更重要所以这个部分部长这个不要为了那个七八千万你看这个预算书嘛"},{"start":342.406,"end":370.456,"text":"上年度是八千一百多万从这个特种基金拨给这个公司今年一百一十五年度编的是七千八百多万不要为了这个七八千万去让这个法律竟然可以从一百零五年一月到现在明年就要十六年了呢十一年了呢所以这个部分部长"},{"start":372.178,"end":376.843,"text":"不要为了这个 但是我们平原地区更重要啊 好不好"},{"start":379.725,"end":404.969,"text":"不用回应了其实我们文化部做了很多文化平权所以您刚才讲到偏远地区您刚才讲的是八千万事实上在我们的文化部的预算里面用在偏远地区原住民各方面的钱是非常高的所以这一点我是非常认同部长我没有要去减这个公司的经费你们要去协调组织总处"},{"start":405.629,"end":432.915,"text":"是要去協調主計總署這個我們依法依法依法給國家通信傳播委員這個特種基金然後另外預算在撥嘛就是左手右手都是人民人大稅檢嘛好不好好謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員官員請回座現在請鄭惠元委員質詢時間對不起"}]}},{"id":"166331","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166331","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0a29c56332440672fff56a78bd28eb1224f1120d908022d4d48780db23e8b7b075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:22:38 - 12:32:04","影片長度":"00:09:26","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T12:22:38+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T12:32:04+08:00","duration":566,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.649718750000002,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.45534375,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.028468750000002,"end":16.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.80471875,"end":23.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.622218750000002,"end":27.098468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.21659375,"end":27.773468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.773468750000003,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.50284375,"end":40.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.17221875,"end":92.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.73784375000001,"end":66.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.27784375,"end":67.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.92784375000001,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.43659375000001,"end":144.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.10534375,"end":147.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.29471875000002,"end":185.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.77409375000002,"end":199.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.62846875000002,"end":208.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.21784375000001,"end":213.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.85409375,"end":221.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.67971875,"end":271.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.73534375,"end":299.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.88284375,"end":304.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.94534375,"end":306.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.91971875,"end":311.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.61096875000004,"end":312.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.36596875000004,"end":315.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.78346875,"end":314.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.98596875000004,"end":315.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.57659375000003,"end":315.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.91409375,"end":318.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.31034375,"end":320.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.91784375000003,"end":319.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.48721875,"end":322.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.96784375000004,"end":330.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.72721875,"end":324.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.93284375,"end":337.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.75034375,"end":342.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.11659375000005,"end":346.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.74034375,"end":354.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.03034375000004,"end":356.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.83596875,"end":360.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.95346875,"end":368.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.44596875,"end":375.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.09034375000005,"end":395.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.85096875000005,"end":408.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.77721875000003,"end":440.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.47159375,"end":420.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.82596875,"end":420.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.44971875000005,"end":425.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.97909375,"end":455.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.51471875000004,"end":442.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.04909375000005,"end":451.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.38596875,"end":457.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.44471875000005,"end":468.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.66659375,"end":486.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.42409375000005,"end":482.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.01034375,"end":483.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.00971875000005,"end":490.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.14409375,"end":494.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.58659375,"end":518.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.09346875,"end":518.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.1103437500001,"end":521.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.0928437499999,"end":543.1865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.28971875,"end":531.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.340343750000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有請部長"},{"start":17.055,"end":40.446,"text":"部長好我聽說在12月3號就是國際身心障礙者日那一天這些那個帳權團體有拜會您所以很高興我們今天看到召委就是終於有這樣的一個詢答跟排審我相信他們一定都很高興那事實上他們在5月份的時候"},{"start":41.286,"end":66.544,"text":"也有來我的辦公室就是來跟我去討論一些他們希望的一個修法方向所以我在七月份的時候呢也根據他們的意見提出了一個修法版本那我個人呢比較重視的大概是三個方向也是他們特別重視的那第一個部分就是他們很希望可以把這個個人助理的一個權益能夠入法"},{"start":67.504,"end":96.146,"text":"另外他们的三政权也希望能够得到保障再来就是有很多是属于交织身份者他们是弱中之弱所以这个部分也很希望卫福部这个地方能够注意当然这个当中我们听了很多很多的案例包括像我们现在整个社会有很多不友善的制度设计跟环境设施我们不是身心障碍者可能很难察觉"},{"start":97.367,"end":120.787,"text":"但是因為他們是當事人所以他們可以處處感受得到許多制度上或者是環境上的一個不便像這個是我有接到的陳情他們說他們因為坐輪椅所以連餐廳定位的時候遇到某些餐廳會應用他們佔用的位置比較大所以要加收費用"},{"start":121.688,"end":147.55,"text":"所以這個是我們當然覺得很難理解那再來就是他們要訂房的時候無障礙的房型明明也是雙人床可是呢他就必須要比一般的雙人床還要多加費用那又或者是說像那個大巨蛋他們又跟我們去陳情說他的輪椅席啊放在最後面那看不到看不清楚也就罷了"},{"start":148.351,"end":170.303,"text":"那人家站起來歡呼的時候是完全看不到所以我們可以發現到說如果他們有機會能夠參與這一些問題就可以被他們提出來討論但是我們目前的法令我們可以看到因為20多年來沒有大修就是過去的第10條"},{"start":171.604,"end":184.832,"text":"他雖然有提到身心障礙者的代表但是他只有考量到單一性別不得少於三分之一因此有可能就是他根本不需要聘身心障礙者"},{"start":186.314,"end":212.228,"text":"這個會就可以成立了所以特別就是希望來修法就是在這個當中寫其中身心障礙者人數不得少於二分之一部長您支不支持這樣的修法方向我們支持這個方向所以我們的版本會朝向身心障礙者代表及身心障礙者那麼不得少於二分之一OK 謝謝再來就是關於受歧視的問題"},{"start":214.05,"end":221.061,"text":"當然原住民我們受歧視其實我們真的可以感同身受但是身心障礙者對他們來講"},{"start":222.731,"end":248.312,"text":"可以說更是備受煎熬所以這個部分我們也很希望因為反歧視法目前一直都沒有辦法完成所以聯合國的人權的一個調查我們其實在這個部分是很不及格的但是至少我們在目前的這樣的一步伐裡面我們很希望能夠去新增對歧視的一個禁止"},{"start":249.053,"end":270.769,"text":"那也擴大他的對象對家人的歧視對照顧者的歧視也希望把他放進去而且呢希望能夠去提供申訴的管道那對於媒體呢也希望能夠去做一個制止那也希望呢能夠有罰則那我不太曉得說部長您對於這樣的修法方向有沒有什麼樣的意見"},{"start":271.772,"end":298.966,"text":"對於這種反歧視那麼甚至騷擾這些事情我們是支持讓他在法律裡面更明確那麼更具有強制性的規範那麼但是在這個申訴的管道跟我們現行的這個相關的行政救濟的程序上的競合關係我們可能也要稍微不要讓他"},{"start":300.827,"end":312.597,"text":"這個重複了 或者是中間有漢格的現象那他的罰則呢罰則我們目前是應該已經有相對應的處理的方式"},{"start":313.827,"end":342.006,"text":"想了解一下所以部裡面的一個態度是什麼我們支持這個方向支持這樣的方向但是強度沒有那麼強對是這樣嗎強度上或者是執行面上怎麼來執行的部分我們再提出來跟委員就教好 謝謝那另外就是我自己也很關心的就是交織身份的部分因為我這樣子說好了就是有所謂的弱中之弱"},{"start":343.208,"end":346.703,"text":"假設一群身心障礙者去找工作"},{"start":347.796,"end":375.344,"text":"那有些人呢他可能有原住民的身份也就是說他是原住民級的一個身心障礙者他們要一起去找工作的話其實對原住民來講他的機會是更少的又或者說一群原住民要去找工作但是其中有一位是身心障礙者那這個具原住民身份的身心障礙者他可能是這一群人當中機會最弱最少的那一位"},{"start":376.204,"end":395.047,"text":"所以我們其實長期以來我們發現有很多的身心障礙者他其實是有多重的身份可是我們的權益保障有時候會要求他們擇一又或者說他們的交織身份其實在資源的獲得我們原本期待應該要給他們更多"},{"start":395.908,"end":424.811,"text":"但是我們的整個制度設計沒有去想到所以這個部分我也希望說部裡面稱這次的修法不曉得部長您對這個有沒有什麼樣的想法方向因為如果以剛剛委員舉例來講因為他是身心障礙者那麼就被這個不容易取得那這個就是有歧視的概念在裡面所以他可能就違反到我們所定的那麼禁止歧視"},{"start":425.572,"end":454.531,"text":"在就業的時候的禁止歧視所以那個應該以現行的法規上應該是可以處理至於多重福利身份上資源如何整合這個也是我們很同意的方向在朝這個方向所以你們現在目前朝這個方向我是希望至少你們現在有一個像113到117這個中長城計畫有一個資源部件計畫總預算是480億啦那他們其實會覺得說很多的資源"},{"start":455.552,"end":479.304,"text":"如果到了地方政府有時候沒有辦法達成中央的美意為得不足啦所以我們很希望說在這個部分針對這些福利身份的盤點資源的整合那怎麼樣真正的能夠幫助到這一些交織身份者我覺得這個也是我們現在應該要去更關注的一個點部長"},{"start":481.726,"end":499.419,"text":"會支持啦最後再給我半分鐘就是大家很關心的個人助理那應該這個很多人都有討論啦就是目前為什麼很少人願意投入就條件不好就是對他們來講這個收入也不是很穩而且職業風險高"},{"start":501.34,"end":517.139,"text":"所以就會變成很少人願意投入這個個人助理所以我們也很希望說藉著這一次的修法能夠把個人助理服務的入法還有新增他費用的補助保障那部長不曉得這個部分我們部裡面有沒有做什麼樣的規劃"},{"start":518.821,"end":543.038,"text":"我们的想法是这样因为这个是我们所有的这个身心障碍者个人照顾服务办法里面很多项中间的一项而已所以我们是比较期待是在这个办法里面来修订那么入到这个身权法会造成以后的弹性可能就会降低"},{"start":543.998,"end":562.458,"text":"那至於說不足的地方我們來檢討那麼在辦法裡面來修訂好 那就是希望在辦法裡面去保障也是入法我們也是希望說入法之後在辦法裡面能夠做更好的修訂那是最好的好 謝謝部長也謝謝主席謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"166330","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166330","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0241434a66fd61452ff56a78bd28eb1224f1120d908022d4df2f941b50267ca495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"11:31:45 - 11:44:48","影片長度":"00:13:03","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 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謝謝主席 那請問石部長好 部長我請問一下你知不知道我們衛福部有一個護理友善職場典範計畫你知道這個計畫嗎有有有 在我們那個12項護理改革計畫裡面有那他這個計畫主要是要做什麼"},{"start":30.342,"end":49.949,"text":"就是在鼓勵那個醫院去提供對於那個護理人員的工作條件還有環境的改善這樣對 然後我們看一下他主要內容也有針對我們培訓新生代護理師也有做頒獎還有查核三班互併比的"},{"start":50.689,"end":76.662,"text":"比例有沒有達標所以因為我們現在他如果醫院申報他達標有達標的獎勵所以他是負責這些的工作那我們這個護理友善職場典範計畫那這個他這個招標的單位是不是應該要屬於比較專業性的一些單位來承辦這個工作"},{"start":79.069,"end":80.922,"text":"我請那個副市長來說明一下"},{"start":82.601,"end":103.974,"text":"對 有考量到這個案子喔就是有專業的部分那也有一些行政的一個協助所以我們在這邊要設計很多友善職場的一個指標認證要找專家開會所以我們是用專業性的一個招標案來處理對 因為我們看他這個工作嘛你上面評選項目有講要專業能力然後相關計畫的承辦經驗那"},{"start":110.765,"end":135.602,"text":"你應該知道這個是限制性招標對不對那標到的單位是哪一個單位永續基金會台灣永續能源基金會那台灣永續能源基金會那據我們了解他的專業好像是屬於氣候變遷跟環境保護還有永續發展跟永續能源那不知道這個跟我們護理有什麼相關"},{"start":136.789,"end":158.577,"text":"跟護理的專業沒有直接相關不過他的行政的能力跟永續發展整個企業的一個管理是蠻有專業的一個高度的一個經驗所以我們現在像我們查這個達標有沒有達標是現在是由醫院自己報對不對對"},{"start":160.273,"end":179.764,"text":"那醫院自己報那有沒有達標是由誰去查核我們有我們未來這個案子裡面會有一個專業審查的團隊他是在幫我們做行政的一個管理的那不是這個不是這個不是這個計劃裡面對在計劃裡面但是他是專管的一個角色專案管理的角色那我們會有團隊裡面就我們專業的人員"},{"start":182.737,"end":207.152,"text":"所以因為我看這個計畫裡面它就有負責針對三班戶病病是否達標那它這個是否達標然後我們了解好像它並不是主動性去查而是如果有人檢舉有問題或者有異常才會主動去查對不對我們會列入一個例行性的一個查核對 因為我們現在是想了解一下"},{"start":208.345,"end":234.98,"text":"因為這個單位其實原則上看起來他跟我們這個計畫好像不是感覺並不是他的一個專業的一個單位一個基金會那我們花了995萬然後用限制性招標讓台灣永續能源研究基金會去承辦這個業務那看起來好像並不是我們評選屬於專業能力"},{"start":238.684,"end":256.174,"text":"這個項目吧我們評選的項目當然就是針對我們需要他委託的一些作為譬如說他可以有辦法去幫我們去找專家然後設計一些我們評選的指標然後做後續的相關的一個管理"},{"start":256.274,"end":280.809,"text":"而且像針對三班戶變筆這是否達標而且我們這個計畫並不是主動去查而是說如果有人檢舉或者有異常我們才去查那如果說沒有人檢舉沒有異常那等於他就不用去做對不對我們在設計裡面印象我們是有一個routine的查核的機制這個細細的部分我們會再提供"},{"start":281.964,"end":308.095,"text":"那我覺得這一部分我們是有一點疑議那是不是可以在一週內提供他的執行相關的計畫沒問題他到底他這個基金會到底要執行哪些業務我們列了蠻多項的因為900多萬要做的事情很多因為看起來這限制性招標他要有專業的優勢等等我們是不了解說看起來這跟環境部好像比較有關係吧"},{"start":309.848,"end":332.758,"text":"因為它這個台灣永續能源基金會限制性招標標到我們護理友善職場典範認證計畫看起來不太相關所以我們想說是不是把我們相關的執行計畫讓我們來瞭解一下好 謝謝委員這個案子我會進一步來深入瞭解然後也會請A5單位再跟委員說明"},{"start":333.878,"end":359.545,"text":"因為看起來這個995萬的這個費用然後他本身又不用主動去查而是說有人檢舉或有異常他主動去查那我們這個像連這個頒獎怎麼都還去外包去做那這個我們自己衛福部裡面都沒有相關單位能夠處理這些也有一定要花這些錢去給外包的單位去處理嗎"},{"start":361.025,"end":383.363,"text":"所以這部分請部長針對相關執行計畫讓我們來瞭解一下因為我們有一點疑義啦好 謝謝委員的提醒好 那相關執行計畫再提供給本席好 那還有我們最近因為內政部有做了一些影片還有發給小紅書平台上面說"},{"start":385.345,"end":395.59,"text":"小紅書內容有違反兒少性剝削防治條例那我想請問一下我們衛福部有接收到相關的這些檢舉的訊息嗎"},{"start":399.281,"end":421.687,"text":"那為什麼內政部說小紅書裡面有違反這些的條例有違反兒少性剝削防治條例那我們衛福部有介紹這些相關的案子有檢舉有這些相關的案情嗎相關詳細的內容我們再了解一下之後再跟委員說明好了對啊 這個衛福部我們不是"},{"start":423.308,"end":444.155,"text":"应该针对这部分应该是主管单位嘛那为什么内政部有这些影片那我们也没有收因为我们问过卫福部啦卫福部说也没有收到检证署跟刑事局这些的通报那为什么内政部会我们看他有发一个公文说"},{"start":445.461,"end":473.093,"text":"小红书平台有违反儿童及少年性剥削防治条例这些事情那我们卫福部主管单位居然都没有讯息为什么内政部会有这个讯息因为可能他们自己先处理的那么我们没有进一步的讯息也有可能我们来细不了解之后整理起来对啊因为我们那时候听到内政部讲那我们也想了解说到底是为什么有哪些"},{"start":474.273,"end":493,"text":"屬於有哪一些案子有違反的兒童性剝削防治條例可是問衛福部衛福部說都沒有收到警政署或刑事局的相關的因為這個條例所涵蓋的樣態蠻多的所以我們再來細節的部分我們來進一步了解"},{"start":493.32,"end":512.045,"text":"對啊 那你可以幫我了解一下內政部為什麼說有這樣的案子因為你一定有實據你要小紅書平台你說有這些實據那可是衛福部主管單位居然都沒有這些訊息那為什麼內政部會有這些訊息我們來細部的了解一下"},{"start":512.825,"end":526.71,"text":"對啊 因為我們也想了解到底是哪些案子在小紅書平台發生這些案子那居然主管單位都沒有然後居然是內政部去發布那部長幫我們了解一下我們來了解一下不過也趁這個機會跟委員說明"},{"start":529.271,"end":545.321,"text":"對於現在在網路上盛行的這些短語音已經有越來越多的研究去證實對兒童的心智發展是有影響那麼特別是它有一些不適當的內容的曝露或者是不適宁"},{"start":546.401,"end":575.981,"text":"是訊息的傳播會造成這個長期的認知能力發展的障礙還有學習力無法聚焦甚至影響到情緒上的這個問題引發可能有智商等等的所以我們現在也在跟教育部去討論怎麼樣來對於這個青少年兒少的部分呢那麼對於這一些這個短影音的暴露應該要有所限制"},{"start":576.601,"end":592.37,"text":"對啊 那如果有這樣的情勢那衛福部應該就要主動去處理啊怎麼會是內政部去處理這個案子我們是做通案性的通案性啦 就是說這一類的短影音的影響對啦 我們是希望啦 當然通案性"},{"start":593.331,"end":611.049,"text":"有發生這些違法的事情我們誤王誤仲但是我們也希望說你也要提出實質的證據出來不能說自己信口開河而且我們衛福部主管單位都沒有說有這樣的事情然後居然是內政部去提出那我們就覺得這很奇怪啊"},{"start":611.892,"end":632.52,"text":"我們進一步來了解好那請衛福部來掌握一下好那當然有違法我們該處理就處理可是如果沒有我們也不能說自己去憑空猜測嘛是是一定好這個勿往勿縱啦一定是這樣對啊勿往勿縱嘛但是也不能去沒有實質的事情去去憑空去想像"},{"start":634.142,"end":650.815,"text":"還有那這邊也跟部長提一下因為我們之前一直有提我們部桃新屋分院第二醫療大樓擴建的案子那後來我們有收到你們的回文喔說我們大園觀音新屋屬於中壢次醫療區域那"},{"start":655.069,"end":671.386,"text":"未達許可辦法第7條鎖定每萬人口50床之現建規定可是這個案子不是一直都說我們現在都計畫在送那可是回這個文怎麼看起來好像沒有要做的意思"},{"start":672.825,"end":689.436,"text":"有啊 這個意思就是說這裡的醫療資源還可以有增加的空間所以我們現在目前的新屋分院目前的許可床是170床我們再新增130床左右可以達到300床的規模 未來"},{"start":690.396,"end":708.677,"text":"對啊 因為他回這個文給我們感覺好像這個可能寫的中文不是寫得很好的誤解了啦這個是條文裡面說這個區域還沒有達到這個現建的上限所以我們在計畫上是符合這個可以興建的那個客觀條件"},{"start":709.358,"end":728.791,"text":"對啊我想說這個案子部長我們也提過很多次我在總諮詢也提過那院長也認為說我們沿海的醫療確實要總檢討希望來增加我們沿海醫療資源有現在正在那個行政院在審查在國防安會有給我們一些意見我們也把這個意見再回覆回去的"},{"start":729.051,"end":748.72,"text":"對啊 所以我們一直說部桃趕快送計畫希望行政院趕快核定然後趕快經費去編列然後突然你們回這個文給人家看起來好像說什麼未達然後又把我們沿海的然後編列在中壢次醫療區那我們當初就講我們本身人口一直在增加再加上我們"},{"start":749.54,"end":775.251,"text":"大園跟觀音本來一直以來就是我們北部最大的跟跟我們說明就是說我們現在提出的這個計劃是符合這個上限以下啦所以是應該可以好可以所以部長這個案子還是繼續會做嗎繼續爭取繼續再爭取好拜託那這個我想已經進行到我們已經計劃核定就趕快幫我們編列經費好不要回個文又說好像沒有達標好像又誤解誤解誤解"},{"start":776.511,"end":785.045,"text":"那個是誤解那個是文字上的誤解好謝謝部長好謝謝委員好謝謝圖全集委員接下來請"}]}},{"id":"166329","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166329","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c07514d3736cb8c019ed0cecc406237e964f1120d908022d4deac46a44ad82f52c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"12:20:43 - 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董事長好這個之前我們有跟你們關心過因為現在其實很多國家的媒體都有在開發AI應用聊天機器人來導入這個新聞資料庫那例如說這個瑞典的報紙就有針對歐盟選舉有推出一個AI機器人那美國華盛頓郵報跟瑞典的廣播電台也都有這個相關的應用之前我們在關心的是我們的公廣集團像我們的央廣 中央社"},{"start":45.916,"end":75.236,"text":"我們自己的相關的這些公共的媒體等我們的新聞資料庫其實累積非常的多那近年來台灣一直是全球接受這個假訊息影響最重影響程度最嚴重的一個國家所以我們在關心的是我們這些公廣集團的新聞資料庫能不能夠來應用作為AI的聊天機器人讓國人在有這些問題需要來查詢的時候"},{"start":75.956,"end":97.728,"text":"能够有一个可信的这个新闻资料库来使用谢谢委员的关心对 这的确是我们非常重要的要推动一个AI聊天机器人的重要因素那我们目前看到很多的研究那发现在一般通用的聊天机器人里面所给予的错误答案甚至是超过50%"},{"start":99.309,"end":113.977,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下我們又面臨境外的不實訊息的攻擊如果我們對台灣的事物或者對國際的事物沒有一個正確可信的資訊的話這是非常嚴重的問題那我們的進度如何 明年有沒有辦法來完成"},{"start":114.577,"end":133.23,"text":"我們現在正在跟中央研究院資科所做緊密的確認那印象中好像合約已經進行到最後的階段我們希望如果能夠順利的話希望能夠在明年底之前就能夠有一個Alpha版或是Beta版好 因為資料庫是現存的"},{"start":133.57,"end":139.534,"text":"那這個也討論一段時間所以呢我們很肯定但也希望我們這個進度要能夠來如期來完成好的接下來跟董事長關心的是小公事開台的時候我們教委會很多委員都有去這個開台的這個活動因為期待也是期待非常久了"},{"start":149.98,"end":170.296,"text":"是台灣要有專屬於兒少的影音平台由公廣集團來營運那當中大家很關心的就是那我們的兒少節目的自製率那我先看了一下我們小公視去年的營運當時我們在開台的時候其實是有設定一些目標例如說我們希望這個新制首播的比例當時你們訂定是20%"},{"start":172.438,"end":183.175,"text":"那我們的公視兒少教育資源網的訂閱數你們的目標是要成長到50%節目產製時程的目標是362小時這些我們都有達標嗎目前都在我們的進度上"},{"start":187.728,"end":210.167,"text":"目前在進度上而且我看有一些我最關心的就是你這個新制新制的這個比例你們的實際上最後是達到是34%那麼我看了一下那今年的我們新制的節目你們是說是32檔那我們今年到底我們今年自製節目的比例可以到多少"},{"start":211.189,"end":227.534,"text":"其实公式的儿少节目一直以来都是自制比较高其实这也就是目前儿童节目产制这个环境一大问题比较高的话比例是多少其实现在就是说大概一半以上都还是自制"},{"start":228.915,"end":242.396,"text":"但是現在我們慢慢要增加偽製節目的量其實在這一年當中已經Trend了很多的外面的製作單位也開始做了一套節目所以慢慢的偽製量也會增加因為不能所有的節目都有公視自己產製"},{"start":243.977,"end":266.529,"text":"我們想的自製就是本土自製因為在我們預算中心的報告裡面他提到說目前我們小公司你主要時段就主要播出時段還是依賴外購跟重播所以認為說我們自製本土自製的節目比例應該要提升所以我再問的是以今年來說我們本土自製的節目可以達到幾成"},{"start":267.809,"end":276.206,"text":"其实我们内部的自己有个规定就是国外的比例不能超过15%大部分85%都是要国内产制的"},{"start":277.577,"end":304.893,"text":"今年85%是國內產製的還有就是資源的分配也是以國內產製佔90%那明年呢 明年有沒有訂定目標都是以這樣的長年都是這樣的目標好 我們就希望這個自製的比例要持續來提升那除了節目以外其實人才也是我們最主要的原因嘛因為我們要有能夠來製作我們兒少影音節目的人才我們有沒有相關的培育計畫"},{"start":306.092,"end":325.75,"text":"有的其实不断地在进行课程还有就是说国外我们像办儿童影展国外的一些老师来台湾我们都在国内办这个workshop就是希望国外的这些做儿童节目的老师们能够立刻对国内所有的业者都能够产生好的效应"},{"start":326.03,"end":347.323,"text":"是 因為我想小公視扮演的角色非常重要我們全國包括民間的這些電視台其實能夠自製節目的比例都還是不夠所以我想小公視除了我們是通路以外我們也扮演了這個人才培育非常重要的角色我們希望可以持續來成長最後要跟董事長關心的是這個國人也都非常關心就是我們的台灣PLUS"},{"start":348.744,"end":365.837,"text":"台灣Plus 我們關心兩點第一個 這個公廣媒體有沒有達到當初我們設立的宗旨我們設立的宗旨是什麼請教董事長將台灣帶入世界讓世界看見台灣這絕對是我們最核心的任務"},{"start":366.736,"end":390.443,"text":"對 我們的宗旨就是向世界宣揚台灣的聲音所以什麼是台灣的聲音呢這一點就很重要第二點大家關心的是你們營運的成效在監察院的報告裡面有提到這個台灣Plus的成效是逐漸在成長當中確實也看到成績那我們最關注的是這個到底是誰在看台灣Plus我們現在有幾成是來自於海外觀眾"},{"start":393.126,"end":407.394,"text":"台灣的觀眾海外的觀眾海外大概94%對94%是海外觀眾這就是我們要的我們希望世界聽見台灣的聲音那當然他說你現在集中47%在美國嘛那其他是亞洲等等"},{"start":407.754,"end":424.167,"text":"那台灣我看一下台灣的觀眾大家可能以為說台灣觀眾是不是最多結果其實不是台灣觀眾其實佔了6%排名是在第4的所以呢我們目前9成4這是好的成績但我們需要持續在往多元的這個市場去邁進第二點就是我們的國際合作"},{"start":425.107,"end":440.338,"text":"國際合作第一個是通路第二個是內容嘛在通路上面例如說在現在其他國家的旅館啊旅館常常是外國人接受新聞的第一個這個這個管道嘛我們在國外的這個旅館有沒有辦法看到台灣plus的新聞"},{"start":441.446,"end":458.687,"text":"我們第一個就是在美國的三星級以上的旅館大概有38萬間不過因為數量最近還在做一些變化那他都可以看到他們三星以上的旅館我們已經有談了合作這個很好要持續的持續的再去談更多的國家再來是OTT跟你的電視新聞"},{"start":460.449,"end":486.441,"text":"我們現在因為涉及到費用的問題如果要落地那必須要很大的費用所以我們盡量是跟那個低費用或者不需要費用現在我們有頻道有海外落地的國家包括哪些我跟您報告包括像在馬來西亞在印度還有在歐洲這個V6 elephant這個還有在美國我們透過像OTT還有那個這些是已經談好的都已經在進行還有沒有其他國家在預計台"},{"start":487.782,"end":503.619,"text":"有沒有其他國家我們要持續洽談持續洽談剛剛講是已經完成這個很重要因為海外的通路這也是我們這麼辛苦製作的內容通路要出來再來就是內容的國際合作我們有沒有跟其他國家的媒體或是他們的這個公共媒體頻道來合作"},{"start":505.768,"end":522.348,"text":"有 目前像是在日本方面富士電視台 朝日電視台在今年都完成了跟我們合作IP節目在日本播出兩地共享韓國也有部分的製作單位也在跟我們合作像是新加坡Media Corp也都跟我們合作了日本的也有嗎日本有兩家電視台跟我們合作"},{"start":522.628,"end":536.606,"text":"好 這個很重要那我們給予你們肯定但是監察院報告裡面同樣提到你們要去檢討的這個董事長我請你們務必一定要持續來關注包括你說這個主要決策者過去是缺乏的其實簡單說就是沒有總編輯"},{"start":538.729,"end":554.771,"text":"這個我們目前有沒有做改革了?今年6月新的總編輯本國紀錄已經徵聘新的總編輯新聞流程都改善而且重新調整過了這很重要你看你沒有總編輯所有的立委都想當你們總編輯這樣子更糟糕所以我們自己要有我們自己的決策這個當然很重要"},{"start":555.191,"end":577.2,"text":"再來我在這個你們四月的時候做了一個調查報告其實監察院報告也是依據你們這一個你們以後調查了三個月然後幾度到這個新聞現場做了訪談我看是蠻深入的在調查報告第二頁裡面訪談過程當中內部成員被巡集這個成立將近三年的媒體定位時仍有許多回答是不清楚或不確定"},{"start":578.36,"end":597.318,"text":"對於他們認為台灣plus應該如何定位答案也相當分歧我認這個問題啊是你們在做制度改革當中很重要要去完成的核心問題因為我們只有當我們的團隊大家都了解我們核心宗旨為何我們才能夠去找出屬於台灣的聲音"},{"start":598.258,"end":623.896,"text":"那你们在海外国外这些合作是把通路打开但是我们内容的产制务必要让他能够完成我们当时的宗旨请董事长持续加油可不可以做到我们现在已经开始进行各项改革而且已经有一些成效但我们未来一定会努力来达成这样的好那我们不是只有期许我们会持续来监督好谢谢谢谢主席好谢谢吴佩奕委员"}]}},{"id":"166310","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166310","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0bdd387cbd2275c7f129e80178479e3604f1120d908022d4d9b03abd11ba7a7725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:30:59 - 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謝謝部長"},{"start":143.219,"end":170.066,"text":"謝謝張委員的關心顯然那個張委員對於這個宗教的這個基本的發展方向有非常正確的觀念那但是為什麼歷經那麼多屆的立法委員都沒辦法推動我想一定有他的很多成因也就是說我們有很多宗教團體的不同的意見那大家都知道台灣的宗教非常的多元不是只有佛教、道教包括有很多我們比較不是了解他的教義的這個部分"},{"start":170.886,"end":195.377,"text":"那所以呢我們以這個憲法的精神來看或是兩公約的精神來看呢我們認為就是低度管理為原則但是這個低度管理呢不要去觸犯到我們剛剛在那個報告裡面所提到的這25條的這個法律那但是呢有些宗教團體呢還是他的自律性很強他希望列進去那如果我們舉個例子來說就我們所接觸到的大部分的這個宗廟"},{"start":197.138,"end":221.466,"text":"他希望說我們能夠突破山坡地保育或是突破國土計畫那這個會比較困擾因為他有這個危險的問題這個就是我們所說公共安全的問題那再來就是有些自律性很強他希望說我們這個很多捐獻或者是勸募的話呢會按照我們的捐獻的這個方式他需要報稅或者不要報稅等等這些那我們都聽到這些聲音"},{"start":221.946,"end":238.329,"text":"但是你要把它列說你的標準要畫在哪一條線確實很難確實很難所以我們就採用這個行政命令的方式只要你不觸犯到母法那幾乎我們大概就是低度監管為原則因為這樣子比較符合憲法對於宗教自由的這個精神"},{"start":238.789,"end":255.085,"text":"那當然我們特別有提到為什麼這裡面呢這個不管是哪一位委員所提的版本呢對於宗教自由的概念呢沒有那麼的清楚我舉個例子譬如說在台北火車站的前面會有很多人說你要不要信仰什麼部分"},{"start":255.505,"end":277.028,"text":"那如果我們跟他講你宗教自由你到哪裡都可以傳播宗教自由他跑到捷運車廂裡面跟你講說你如果不信的話會怎樣怎樣這個呢就是影響到他人而且影響到公共秩序那這個部分呢可能是社會法要處理的那這個部分就會影響到我們在同意與否做這個宗教基本法裡面的一個最大的一個成因"},{"start":277.168,"end":301.111,"text":"好謝謝部長因為在114年就今年的11月27號在東吳大學他的法律宗教研討會也有這個11篇論文還有22位專家學者及很多的宗教團體都有出席他們其實是支持這個宗教基本法所以我還是希望說部長這邊可以請聽民意那盡快找這些社團大家再來討論就您剛提出的問題是不是可以不要再影響"},{"start":302.202,"end":330.09,"text":"層面很廣泛的狀況下還是可以有基本法的這個往前邁進一步那第二個我要來請教部長的就是說最近尤其我們最近都在討論詐騙的問題很嚴重那我昨天有開了一場公聽會其實從今年1月到11月其實詐騙的金額高達800多億的新台幣那尤其宗教的部分也有可能有些不肖的這個業者他們也會有一些宗廟的一些詐騙或是高利貸的問題"},{"start":331.158,"end":345.465,"text":"那最近我們也看到不管是有這個宮廟可能淪為地下錢莊或者是要求信徒去借高利貸或者是要求就是賣一些說加持過的東西來試品來去改運然後請長輩這個匯出巨款"},{"start":349.887,"end":371.442,"text":"那我想要請教就是說因為現在這個炸是跨部會的協調因為內政部如果宗教團體他可以由內政部來登記成人民團體如果有違法可以解散那如果他用公司組織的方式變成是經濟部商業司來管轄那如果是一些宗教團體他們是賣的是心靈治療課程如果牽涉到醫療的可能是衛福部來管轄"},{"start":372.25,"end":387.035,"text":"那現在這麼多管轄單位那針對這些宗教的詐騙是不是有可能用聯合稽查的機制來去做管理因為我們現在有看到很多這個民眾被詐騙完以後輕生的問題是不是請部長可以回答"},{"start":389.207,"end":404.474,"text":"謝謝張委員的關心第一個你所謂的心靈成長到底是屬於宗教就是我剛所說這個說不定只是假宗教之名行詐騙之時那我們114年1月1號也是今年跟宗教詐欺有關的案件已經有移送86件"},{"start":406.174,"end":431.525,"text":"86件那那個還有就是說他是屬於非法的宗教活動他其實就是在行詐欺那我我想張委員講得非常好就是如果他願意到我們的警察單位來報案的話我們會結合剛剛你所說的衛福部或是教育部一起來做這個稽查的工作讓他不要觸犯到刑法這一條線那至於說這個非法的這個宗教的活動屬於哪一類我是不是請市長跟你稍微好謝謝市長"},{"start":434.566,"end":447.392,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們現在常常碰到比較非法的譬如說他是賣尼古塔或者是改姓名改姓改姓的話你就要交多少錢還有說是平安燈也許說10萬塊20萬塊但他子弟可能不認同還有說假借說我要投資你把那些金額把它投資下去結果不了了之錢不知道去哪裡了這是幾個我們常碰到一個案例好謝謝那最後一個問題我還想要請教部長部長這個"},{"start":464.161,"end":478.952,"text":"最近還是很多民眾跟我反應就是說針對內政部進這個小紅書的問題那我想要請教因為現在聽說現在小紅書上面也在教導人民說如何用翻牆軟體用翻牆系統來去用小紅書"},{"start":481.334,"end":498.469,"text":"那針對民眾如果用這個VPN或是翻牆系統會造成裡面跳出很多的談業廣告會不會讓民眾或是我們的國人因為他很想要看這些不管是美妝旅遊或是生活的一些資料他用翻牆軟體會不會造成他們會更有機會"},{"start":499.33,"end":524.536,"text":"提出到這些詐騙廣告的這個問題你們內政部有什麼樣的解決方式使用VPN的方式的話我們會請這個數位經濟的監管機關來處理但是裡面如果牽涉到詐欺的話就是會像很多外界所提到的因為他已經是不屬於我們監管的範圍沒有辦法納入台灣監管的範圍所以這樣的詐騙行為呢要我們的警政單位去追查反而比較大的困擾"},{"start":525.416,"end":531.67,"text":"那我們那個那個科技偵查 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部長雖然今天是宗教基本法的審查但我想先問您一個實事題目就是其實我們在上個月的時候國際刑警組織大會有在摩洛哥開會但是一直到昨天我們看到了國際組織司也就是外交部系統他發了一篇新聞稿除了感謝友邦為我們講話希望能讓台灣加入國際刑警組織之外"},{"start":42.253,"end":60.28,"text":"同時也強烈的譴責國際刑警組織基於政治的考量排序我們台灣 再次的排序我們加入這個組織那外交部都出聲了 內政部呢 內政部 部長您的立場非常謝謝委員的指教 我們都了解國際刑警組織呢他不只拒絕台灣加入這個國際刑警組織"},{"start":65.942,"end":71.426,"text":"那同時呢他也把台灣是中國的一部分這樣非常強的色彩放到裡面去我們當然是強烈的反駁那同時呢也跟委員報告在這期間啊我們的包括刑事局長在內我們在全球各地的媒體呢已經有大概有270篇以上要求這個全球的這個刑警刑警組織"},{"start":89.597,"end":101.111,"text":"希望可以納入台灣的警察因為台灣的警察在打擊犯罪呢我們很樂意跟全球的民主國家一起來合作是 部長我想是這樣子齁其實世界國際的這個國際刑警組織沒有台灣的加入其實反而是世界的損失啊"},{"start":106.477,"end":120.358,"text":"我們可以看從2016年這個一營ATM到零案2017年的遠東銀行的駭客案其實都是世界級的大案但是呢都是犯罪行為在台灣被台灣的刑警發現之後破獲"},{"start":121.86,"end":133.252,"text":"而且把這個資料傳遞回世界然後這個案才算是一個有重大突破進展所以台灣的刑警的能力台灣的這個犯罪防治的能力真的是有目共睹"},{"start":138.157,"end":152.834,"text":"那我想大家也都非常努力啦我們台灣要加入國際組織其實也不是一蹴可擊所以也很感謝這次已經有到八個友邦替我們講話那我是覺得部長這邊齁因為我們目前看到的是外交部"},{"start":153.214,"end":157.576,"text":"在國內也讓國人了解這件事情我是建議內政部除了對國際投書之外對國內的部分也可以再多做一點表示跟說明跟上這個我們整個政府整體的概念這是我對內政部的期望這是第一個要跟部長溝通我們會來遵守辦理委員的指教我們馬上來處理"},{"start":174.122,"end":196.388,"text":"第二個我們回到宗教的事物我也想請司長一起上台看如果有機會的話等一下可以一起回答我想部長跟司長非常榮幸在週末星期六的時候來到了新北的樹林因為我們新北樹林紀安宮有一個五朝元教這是一個非常重大的慶典很感謝行政團隊由內政部長和宗教理事司長親自到現場參與"},{"start":202.009,"end":216.758,"text":"所以大家可以看到其實宗教在台灣真的真的是非常非常重要的事物你可以看到嘛我們光是新北我就可以舉例給你看你看樹林濟安宮那天你們有參與好來那再一個你看野柳的神明進港"},{"start":217.839,"end":237.68,"text":"這不但是有疑點而且是包含了過去我們先祖在這裡的生活方式的呈現這是漁民在一段時間之後除了對上天的感謝也是對這個地方的祈安所以他是包含了生活文化在裡面那甚至呢有這個大家熟知的"},{"start":238.1,"end":254.288,"text":"野柳神明進港過火的這個部分但是你看下圖的部分剛剛的那一頁的下圖的部分他們甚至分成兩個地方左下的這張是更為傳統的他還要真正的赤腳過火上面其實還有一些傻眼等等的這樣的狀態那再有你看看我們甚至是下一頁"},{"start":259.547,"end":274.189,"text":"淡水清水炎淡水大拜拜清水祖師的遶境甚至是新莊新莊地藏安的文武大眾爺的聖誕這個都是整個城鎮可以動起來所以我想表達的是說你看看"},{"start":274.95,"end":298.389,"text":"宗教的據點其實對一般人來講你說啊可能是去拜拜沒有在地方鄉親他甚至是一個修氣文化健康長照等等各式各樣的場合都可以在這裡發生場域是如此而活動的部分甚至是傳承了文化和你去生活共同記憶的一個部分所以我現在看到的是"},{"start":299.81,"end":313.724,"text":"我們2024年有宗教禮儀司開始制定了我想請問宗教禮儀司或者部長看您哪一位要回答就是你對地方宗教文化活動的推廣你現在有什麼策略跟發展"},{"start":315.217,"end":342.054,"text":"謝謝委員對宗教活動一個支持尤其樹林建安宮全程跟我們部長去參與真的非常感動其實可以的話我其他都想請你來但是我想你應該沒有這個時間跟委員報告那我們未來會積極來推動包括支持之外我們也會我們包括他的活動然後更具有特色那我們未來會結合國光署然後將我們的宗教文化有特色的然後向國際然後行銷出去"},{"start":342.814,"end":370.442,"text":"司長你講到觀光署就是我想講的重點因為你看國際上面日本京都的紫園祭啊泰國的潑水節其實都帶來了大量上百萬數百萬的觀光人士那台灣現在最知名的是白沙屯媽祖嘛對不對那可是我們剛剛的這些一樣有機會可以發展成再升級成為城市國家級甚至是國際級的這就看有沒有新的概念可以進去帶動所以說起來啦我是知道你們現在有這個嘛"},{"start":371.242,"end":400.319,"text":"你們的補助計劃有一個啊這個叫做創新吧是不是還是對不起我一時創新創新事務推動的這個計劃是今年的預算配置會是往哪個方向發展各位報告我們今天要著重在比如說中央觀光是一個部分然後還有一個是國際論壇國際交流然後我們結合地方的特色然後把它行銷出去"},{"start":401.122,"end":426.208,"text":"內政部我看到內政部輔導宗教團體發展及促進宗教對話補助那你的目的是為了鼓勵宗教團體民間學術團體還有大專院校從事宗教對話公益慈善跟社會教化學術交流與時俱進之宗教文化習俗及健全宗教團體的發展這是你這邊給我們的文字嘛對不對好可是我們可以看到啦其實現在台灣大概至少有17000個符合補助資格的團體"},{"start":429.309,"end":452.366,"text":"可是你核定的大概是55個只有0.3那這個狀況是鼓勵大家來的是是因為今年度的預算本身就不多所以核定的數額當然不多那未來如果說得到我們委的支持明年度的話預算多一點我們就會積極來輔導但是我看你明年度的國內的預算其實並沒有增加太多"},{"start":454.062,"end":468.261,"text":"國內的部分對其實沒有增加太多是 各位報告其實我們有編了兩億那兩億裡面也包括國內的團體他只要說對他國際宗教交流論壇或宗教公安有注意的我們都會全力來協助好"},{"start":468.661,"end":494.166,"text":"其實市長還有部長 請部長還是請部長回應一下好了其實我要說的是說你看我剛剛給你看的這些其實它都不是什麼民間論壇它就是宗教活動事實上能夠帶動地方的認同感凝聚力還有傳承我們的文化甚至是帶來觀光人士的其實是這一類的活動所以我看到了這筆預算其實今年有大幅的增加我是希望"},{"start":495.188,"end":513.008,"text":"不要只偏重論壇因為論壇有時候他比較會寫這個預算申請的報告這種的比較不會寫但我是希望內政部尤其宗教師您可以把目光放在這一類的宗教活動上面尤其是誰能夠帶來創新那大家都想變成像Omega一樣啊這個大鬧熱啊"},{"start":514.389,"end":530.746,"text":"蒙甲青山祭呀對不對他整個的狀態已經完全不一樣了我認為如果誰能夠提出這樣的計畫我希望宗教師內政部宗教師的補助可以往這個方向多一點部長可以我們謝謝委員的指教我們會朝這方面來努力好謝謝部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166308","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166308","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c01fa7218d77ad3594129e80178479e3604f1120d908022d4d9b03abd11ba7a7725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"09:18:47 - 09:21:24","影片長度":"00:02:37","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員許智傑等38 人擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。\n二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等 18 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中央也出問題喔中央會出什麼問題呢"},{"start":494.716,"end":519.16,"text":"你每五年啦 這個衛福部應該每五年檢討一次的社福綱領啦13年也都沒有檢討了因為吼 我們現在的財政還不錯所以吼 我比較你講的重點嘛我們既然財政不錯這個窮人的身上這民進黨執政快十年以來從小英政府當初接手馬英九的時候那個公債的負"},{"start":520.06,"end":544.818,"text":"復筆啊 已經接近上限40.5那時候39點幾啊現在降不到25啊所以說我們現在國家不是沒有錢啊是要怎麼用錢的問題啊所以你應該教這些單位好好用錢 還有連院級也出問題喔 不是部喔我剛剛說地方政府喔 然後部級喔然後院級也出問題院級出什麼問題呢行政院的改善所得分配專案小組拜託"},{"start":547.16,"end":562.589,"text":"他用一個經濟發展委員會我看過他開一遍會我跟你講我不曉得是你報告寫得不夠好還是寫得不夠直我已經很強硬你可能還要再寫一份更精進一點更強悍一點 必要時候該送公務委員審還有那個貧富不均"},{"start":570.834,"end":593.352,"text":"對國家影響很大 我們會除息損棄你不是長期 而且要定期不是一年 趕快要半年我會除息損棄持續請進 加強審計啦好不好我這個會加強審計 我也會好好看你表現啦我也會好好監督你啦你好好審計 我好好監督你啦好 謝謝主席謝謝郭國文委員"}]}},{"id":"166305","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166305","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0d96d6f9c50a749619ecb9f93c172c5514f1120d908022d4d0f7628e6d07117175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"11:57:56 - 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你們的這個營業 營利事業 營收總額的配比台北分到最多 理由是什麼不是台北特別會招商啊 不是台北特別會做生意啊是企業總部都設在台北 污染都在高雄中油 台電 中鋼 污染都在高雄"},{"start":248.755,"end":265.645,"text":"該不該修 該不該修正當然應該修正嘛土地面積是高雄的土地面積是台北的10倍我們要負擔的人口比重土地比重包括基礎建設的比重都比台北來的大"},{"start":266.973,"end":290.993,"text":"都比台北要多很多這個比重該不該調整環境負擔的指數該不該把它納入未來的財化法裡頭我認為是必須我看到現在行政院的版本也納進去了所以如果是這樣我不懂為什麼在野黨不讓這個版本進入委員會來討論"},{"start":293.601,"end":306.753,"text":"不讓我們討論不讓大家了解到底行政院應該要怎麼樣負責任的重新規劃整個財政授之劃分法為什麼不讓我們討論"},{"start":308.588,"end":314.55,"text":"謝謝委員我覺得院版的才化法在分配指標裡面是更為均衡您剛剛所提到的沒有錯我們把工業就業人口也放進來同時對中高污染的部分給予加成這個就是考慮到這個一個均衡的問題還有農林榆木的就業人口跟農林榆木的產值也都放進來我們不能只照顧商業發展的城市我們對於我們"},{"start":334.877,"end":352.368,"text":"農村鄉村他對於國家糧食的貢獻應該要給予回饋跟當地的民眾要給予照顧這就是我們城鄉分配更均衡我很欣慰聽到您的這一番話主席已經站起來我就不耽誤大家的時間不過我還是希望要在這裡誠懇的呼籲藍白的委員怕什麼"},{"start":353.325,"end":369.51,"text":"不要怕嘛大家各自有主張就把各自的版本放到立法院來好好的討論而不是用多數的暴力想要表決想要強度關山想要強姦政府我覺得這是不負責任的做法謝謝部長好 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你把問題帶回去我告訴你 政府採購法"},{"start":160.376,"end":182.415,"text":"就是有強制仲裁啊政府採購法第85條寫的這麼清楚如果你們法務部還說吐參案納入強制仲裁叫做違憲的話那請問啊政府採購法也違憲嗎就這個問題你待會去問"},{"start":183.575,"end":206.604,"text":"好不好好謝謝你不能說你以後上台答覆拜託你也說一些比較古典的那表示哪有說你今天來開會啦四射的是財政部國發會我們會提到的所有的議題那你現在一問三不知你說是因為你沒有參與"},{"start":208.298,"end":226.293,"text":"報告委員 我剛剛要說明的就是說我們的仲裁法的規定制度上就是原則上它是以合一仲裁 依仲裁法來進行但是仲裁法也有允許法律如果有特別規定的話是可以允許的"},{"start":226.733,"end":255.698,"text":"政府的採購法這就規定的很清楚啊機關不同意自調解不成立者廠商提交仲裁機關不得拒絕這是不是強制仲裁就這麼簡單嘛條文寫這麼清楚剛剛的那一個答案是不是容我會後了解一下就是說到底那個背景是怎麼樣問題就是剛才講的這麼簡單你回去那你什麼多久可以給我答覆"},{"start":256.954,"end":283.055,"text":"我們一個禮拜內可以給委員長然後你把當初答覆莊部長那拒絕這個案子到底源頭是誰你也告訴我好不好我覺得這是很莫名其妙那個莊部長你知道嗎這麼多年來我們有多少曠日廢食導致損害公益的這些促餐案"},{"start":284.775,"end":307.081,"text":"我隨便唸幾句前年你們財政部有推要不然說如果有爭議那先用爭議調解但是前年推了到去年8月為止只有11件提出才4件有通過調解成立"},{"start":309.656,"end":321.814,"text":"再來我們把時間更拉長的話從去年8月算起到今年8月去年8月到今年8月總共197件"},{"start":325.111,"end":346.218,"text":"那解約的有1293億還在促進民間資金參與公共建設這樣子的大前提之下竟然這麼多的案子有爭議然後去年8月到今年8月提前解約的就215件1421億那麼"},{"start":352.901,"end":360.209,"text":"其中有47件有464億是觀光遊樂休憩現在我們國內國旅這麼差你看嘛我們國內觀光遊樂休憩這樣子引進民間參與的案子多數是失敗的"},{"start":375.083,"end":402.123,"text":"那難怪國旅那麼好的一些景點設備沒辦法更新地方老舊甚至有公共危險的地方都完全沒辦法你比方說這個屏東 遠在屏東的大鵬灣那麼好的構想計畫拖了十幾年還在那邊捧一年耐一年你看"},{"start":403.174,"end":424.841,"text":"所以我認為啦 既然雙方不合啦有爭執啦 那就快速解決喔 因為訴訟法院案量實在太大啦那真的是曠日廢時 好不好所以我希望這件事情 我要求法務部他說一個禮拜答覆 那你也繼續追蹤他們好 謝謝委員 是 謝謝法務部那你請回 我請那個國發會"},{"start":437.326,"end":439.687,"text":"國發會是經濟發展處專門委員國發會你們整個國發會在我看兩個字我形容天兵"},{"start":454.622,"end":471.373,"text":"你們對外宣稱說促餐案大成長了到今年10月你們總共說169件2246億我放一個也是你們的表格你們的表格我怎麼加"},{"start":472.774,"end":489.411,"text":"怎麼加 75加57 57加就怎麼加都沒有169件金額更是沒有你說的2246億那這就算了喔我看你們從107年到現在107年前5年 107到111年有 有成長"},{"start":498.657,"end":518.414,"text":"從1375億每一年83件有增加到一年139件2828億但是就從隔一年112年開始你們就衰退啦一路就下滑一路就下滑那這下滑不打緊"},{"start":519.81,"end":547.524,"text":"我另外兩個字形容你們所有案子虛胖你們是促參法的案子你把其他法令的大眾運輸捷運法大眾捷運法你也納入都市更新條例獎勵的你們那些其他法令的你們通通納入所以結果看起來有那麼多案子結果叫做什麼叫做虛胖嘛"},{"start":548.7,"end":568.162,"text":"所以我希望你們認清事實認清說你們從過去到現在很多的案子根本就是拼拼湊湊拼拼湊湊我們政府要用促成法就是希望能夠引進能夠獎勵刺激民間的資金進來"},{"start":569.947,"end":594.845,"text":"現在有個大問題啦部長知道啊所以部長有跟院長都有溝通過就是我們這個受險資金我們全國受險資金餘額到去年為底35兆裡面七成被這些受險業者拿去國外買海外的基金債券那有兩大風險一個戰爭一個匯率兩個風險我們都碰到啦"},{"start":599.076,"end":620.558,"text":"所以我們的財政部在我們財委委員會嚴格要求監管之下他們就是要去趕快去誘導這些受險資金就是民間資金趕快回到我們國家來參與我們國家的公共建設這是好事啊"},{"start":622.754,"end":642.429,"text":"結果你拖三拉四的你想想那麼多結果沒這麼多成績那你列了這些預算預算我們倒是不會再找你們什麼麻煩啦102年開始你們這些花了7億2千萬元那花過去就算了啦因為你們成績"},{"start":643.752,"end":665.129,"text":"有消也有成長這個我沒話講今天你們又再度編了五億一千七百一十萬我希望你們好好把握這些錢這些資金就是用來讓你們好好的想方設法去誘導民間的資金參與國家的公共建設可不可以"},{"start":667.99,"end":697.078,"text":"是那跟委員說明就是整個兆元投資國家這個發展方案這個計劃呢基本上就是要吸引這個保險業者來做這個相關的一個投資那這個部分的一個那個他的一個計算呢那在當初方案的設定呢就是包括這促倉案件跟採用其他相關法令來吸引民間投資達到吸引民間投資的一個案件通通都記錄所以才會這個在整個的一個"},{"start":697.958,"end":719.685,"text":"金額或者案件的計算上面呢跟委員如果只單從素餐案件來計算上面數字會有所不同那至於在這個基礎建設認定的這個部分呢那這個目前的因為他的一個申請是個案申請所以是由業者他們是他們需求來提出申請那我們這邊都有列管來協助業者來做認定"},{"start":721.782,"end":746.162,"text":"你們有很多定義你們自己把它條列寬鬆了很多定義都不是很清楚我希望你們回去加強我剛剛念的這幾個數字都完全確實正確你們回去看清楚好不好好 謝謝王委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員不在場下一位我們請邱奕穎委員"}]}},{"id":"166286","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166286","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0398c3afd9498ea14ff56a78bd28eb12244a569ea12001d971bd147f165fa27cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:25:54 - 10:39:39","影片長度":"00:13:45","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T10:25:54+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T10:39:39+08:00","duration":825,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.55346875,"end":6.949718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.949718750000001,"end":7.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.62409375,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.906593750000003,"end":16.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.88909375,"end":18.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.06596875,"end":20.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.63534375,"end":26.997218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.65971875,"end":35.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.768468750000004,"end":34.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.64159375,"end":36.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.48534375,"end":36.869093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.767843750000004,"end":38.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.18534375,"end":42.674093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.33221875,"end":147.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.93596875,"end":193.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.19971875000002,"end":189.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.35096875000002,"end":195.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.20284375,"end":213.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.34346875,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.31784375,"end":221.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.54534375,"end":219.42284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.38471875000002,"end":221.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.56596875000002,"end":225.32909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.17284375000003,"end":227.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.50596875000002,"end":228.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.82221875000002,"end":229.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.17221875,"end":230.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.59409375,"end":230.83034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.88096875000002,"end":231.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.65284375000002,"end":249.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.07471875000002,"end":233.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.18596875000003,"end":250.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.28284375,"end":253.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.48909375000002,"end":256.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.88534375,"end":256.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.95284375,"end":259.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.83409375,"end":261.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.08721875000003,"end":261.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.15471875000003,"end":261.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.18846875,"end":263.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.95971875000004,"end":272.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.79846875000004,"end":283.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.80096875000004,"end":295.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.52909375,"end":299.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.30471875,"end":300.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.19909375000003,"end":303.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.32096875,"end":308.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.60721875,"end":308.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.87721875,"end":313.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.22721875,"end":317.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.26034375,"end":315.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.55096875000004,"end":330.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.86534375,"end":343.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.79159375,"end":347.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.80784375,"end":350.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.94659375000003,"end":372.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.61409375000005,"end":376.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.20846875,"end":377.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.13659375000003,"end":381.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.86159375,"end":391.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.56909375000004,"end":391.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.39159375,"end":395.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.10846875000004,"end":395.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.81721875000005,"end":400.06971875000005},{"speaker":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謝謝主席 是不是請我們部長來 部長林委員早"},{"start":12.95,"end":42.512,"text":"部長 我想今天跟你討論一個之前談過的議題就是說你知道這個未來的慢性病的防治重點大概會有哪些嗎 慢性病NCD 就是那個非傳染性疾病我們主要就是以三高跟CKD那就是所謂代謝症候群那代謝症候群成長的趨勢在台灣嚴不嚴重你覺得呢"},{"start":44.293,"end":62.367,"text":"很嚴重你知道這個肥胖問題不只是台灣成為全球關注的焦點根據今年3月在發表在刺客專的期刊一項分析全球200多個國家的數據的研究指出到2050年在不久的將來全球會超過一半的成年人"},{"start":68.672,"end":85.905,"text":"以及三分之一的兒童及青少年將會超重或者是肥胖但我們都知道肥胖不只是個人健康的問題它還會加重醫療體系的負擔甚至提升慢性病的風險"},{"start":87.046,"end":102.442,"text":"那我现在在特别在跟你指出来就是说国建署去年国建署的去年发布了2023年的工作人口健康促进的现况调查他的初步结果调查中发现"},{"start":103.804,"end":114.778,"text":"僅有不到一半的工作者體重正常受調查的全體工作者當中高達47.4%的體重達到過重或者是肥胖"},{"start":118.232,"end":147.432,"text":"主要当然就是缺少运动或者是膳食纤维蔬果的摄取不足目前的初步分析发现只有47.9%的工作者体重落在正常的范围27.2%已经是过重20.2%已经是肥胖的程度只有仅仅非常少的是4.7%是过轻的族群这种初步的分析里面"},{"start":148.973,"end":166.846,"text":"我們看到體重正常的工作者當中還有性別上的差異女性正常的裡面女性居多但是50歲以上的女性族群仍然有超過30%具有過重或者是肥胖的問題"},{"start":168.067,"end":192.87,"text":"這可能的因素很多啦 當然包括更年期等等那另外根據數據調查顯示男性過重跟肥胖的族群高達61.6%而且年齡分布在40歲以上的男性族群體重問題都以過重為主但是50到59歲則男性肥胖的比例最高是"},{"start":193.911,"end":213.309,"text":"肥胖比例最高的年齡段那我要講這個就是說我們都知道肥胖這個問題代謝症候群的問題這個是跟肥胖跟很多疾病息息相關那你知道部長現在茶餘飯後網路上大家最喜歡討論的關於跟肥胖有關的議題是什麼"},{"start":217.02,"end":227.887,"text":"最流行的又不是那一支 人家是雙效的雙效的GLP-1 另外一個效數是什麼有兩種 它是兩種的兩種嗎"},{"start":232.694,"end":252.447,"text":"大家都知道 討論度最高的處理代謝症候群的方法大家都是直接使用藥物而且號稱非常健效 非常有效那其實你看我 我其實是過重的我是過重的 真的我沒騙你我是過重的雖然大家都看不出來我很重"},{"start":260.926,"end":263.324,"text":"所以我也很动心您分量很重"},{"start":266.988,"end":294.171,"text":"但是大家都使用瘦瘦增經驗的真的很多我旁邊一大堆人那我們也去看自費的門診的人也很多那其實我建議我的一個子女他也真的他不是過重他已經是超級胖了我也會建議他要去看但是呢很多的診所甚至醫生都在招攬生意然後歡迎有興趣的需要的請到跟診所洽詢"},{"start":295.592,"end":317.251,"text":"真的是行力有夠好 藥水有夠好的好你知道這個瘦瘦針一年營業額在台灣有多少嗎成長率有多高嗎你們有沒有數據 來健保署 那不是健保 那是自費那是自費那個食藥署的那個銷售量去看"},{"start":317.631,"end":329.396,"text":"喔 對 好 到時候你給我一個數據真的 剛開始是丹麥的現在丹麥行李都倒了 美國里來打倒了但我是要在這裡要講這件事情是因為啊 你知道川普宣布跟里來和諾德兩家製藥的巨頭達成協議他們希望擴大美國民眾對減肥藥物的可及性"},{"start":343.863,"end":350.01,"text":"一個政府他們希望擴大減肥藥物的可及性"},{"start":351.144,"end":375.847,"text":"這是一個非常嚴肅的問題真的非常嚴肅他擴大這個可及性要求藥廠降價降價以後引起更多的人討論甚至連台灣都開始有人呼籲了呼籲政府要將這類的瘦瘦真藥品納入健保給付我剛剛講的我一個親戚122公斤女性年輕他依照健保他可不可以使用"},{"start":377.185,"end":399.779,"text":"他已經有三高問題了可以健保補助嗎不可以不可以啊因為他還沒達到糖尿病他血糖過高但是還沒達到糖尿病標準他有血壓過高有膽固醇過高可是沒有健保補助啊如果是病態肥胖的話會納入到我們對嘛那我說一個122公斤對一個24歲的女性是不是過度肥胖"},{"start":401.047,"end":426.481,"text":"是啊 肯定是啊 可是沒有給付但我不是要討論這個給付我是要跟你講說這個問題非常嚴重當減重的藥物被大規模的可進性可急性的時候社會對體重問題的理解還有分配資源整個健保資源 藥物資源分配的優先次序大家都想介入 都想改變"},{"start":427.882,"end":441.589,"text":"但是我們可不可以把肥胖當成是可以用藥物解決的疾病當川普這麼做的時候帶頭示範的時候他會衝擊到全世界各個國家的政府的壓力"},{"start":442.87,"end":460.482,"text":"所以這牽扯到預防肥胖當然跟預防跟營養政策跟生活型態的醫學還有跟醫療資源的分配很優關高度相關但是如果你缺乏公平而且精準的臨床的指引"},{"start":461.603,"end":489.582,"text":"資源有可能錯置啊他錯置在非高風險的族群裡面反而削弱了公共衛生政策的有效性啊所以我們在講說這是很嚴肅的課題但不僅是美國或全球正在面臨的課題也是台灣必須及早正式的醫療和社會政策的挑戰但我今天還在跟你講說但是事實上肥胖跟疾病就息息相關嘛"},{"start":490.402,"end":507.911,"text":"肥胖就跟疾病息息相關有哪些疾病太多了啦太多了這個跟這個血糖血壓血脂啊都相關直接相關的疾病你說血糖血壓血脂慢性的直接有疾病什麼都有相關脂肪肝"},{"start":510.012,"end":524.406,"text":"大家都知道這個體重過重或肥胖者罹患脂肪肝和肝癌的風險很高但是肝癌就跟我們的癌症防治有關了肝癌始終高居第二名高居不下"},{"start":525.347,"end":537.201,"text":"癌症死因的第二名但脂肪性的肝炎是肝癌的致病因子之一而且只要肝臟的脂肪超過5%就是脂肪肝了嘛所以在這種狀況裡面國際癌症"},{"start":540.365,"end":562.753,"text":"研究機構IARC他們報告也指出肥胖就是導致癌症的危險因子而且體重過重者相較於健康者高出1.5或到1.8倍罹患肝癌的機率所以你說這是要不要去處理 要啊要怎麼處理肥胖要怎麼處理"},{"start":564.571,"end":575.14,"text":"肥胖的這個因素很多調整的他是整個生活習慣的改變不是只是靠藥物人家靠藥物非常有效比你調整他更迅速更有效"},{"start":576.465,"end":604.388,"text":"你要不要納入從學理上來看那當然對於這個病態性肥胖的它可是一個輔助的藥物啦而且迅速有效喔那如果肥胖跟癌症相關你從源頭裡面來防治來預防的話人家會覺得說這也是有道理的喔make sense這個還是要經過醫療科技現在就是資源分配的問題而已嘛資源分配的問題是不是"},{"start":605.87,"end":629.289,"text":"對 一定是跟資源有關係大家都知道以肝癌為例台灣的肝癌大多數都是來自於代言者BC型的代言者但是也有非代言者的去確診的那台灣的BC型肝炎防治有良好的成效但是脂肪肝的發生率卻患者越來越年輕化而脂肪肝的10年變化趨勢"},{"start":632.091,"end":650.364,"text":"2015年發生率是44.5%到2024年變成52.3%結果脂肪肝的這個每兩人就有一個人脂肪肝40到49歲脂肪肝超過7成比例最高天啊在座40到49歲有脂肪肝的舉手"},{"start":652.048,"end":680.803,"text":"其實我當時就是我也是所以在這種狀況裡面20到29歲有幾%有脂肪肝你知道嗎20到29正年輕我告訴你有42將近42所以證實台灣脂肪肝真的是年輕化的趨勢在這種狀況裡面我們講那我們剛剛講工作人口的健康促進現況調查這麼嚴重如何將職場的健康不平等如何改善"},{"start":682.144,"end":692.162,"text":"當然不能是靠人手一針 瘦瘦針吧人手一支瘦瘦針不是辦法吧那你們職場健康促進的策略有哪些措施"},{"start":696.421,"end":723.072,"text":"職場健康的那個推動是我們國健署的主要業務之一叫他準備有什麼策略我先告訴你因為從勞保局的投保單位來看大型職場有0.4%中型職場只有1%大多數的職場都是小型職場98.6%小型職場常因為人力不足而且沒有資源可以推動健康促進活動所以你們的健康促進的政策"},{"start":723.692,"end":738.719,"text":"你們要變成職場健康促進的自主平和制度老實說 你們花多少錢你們鼓勵企業自主檢視 積極規劃 落實健康促進變成口號 口惠實不至"},{"start":739.699,"end":759.189,"text":"而你們去做了大型的職場成功案例做宣傳台灣美光 台化 愛潔旭相對這些比例最高的小型職場你們後續的效益評估資質未提你們到底有沒有辦法做114年到現在做了幾家的有幾家企業申請"},{"start":760.834,"end":775.41,"text":"不知道目前我們的累計的加數大概有1.8萬家啦1.8萬家喔 這麼厲害小心職場怎麼做的我們要職場健康促進自主平和的制度方向政策可以繼續推"},{"start":776.491,"end":791.897,"text":"但你沒有量化追蹤你沒有平和這個透明化和跨部會的協力可能就淪於形式啊所以我們希望你對於職場的健康促進尤其在這個代謝症候群上你應該提出三年的成效指標包括"},{"start":793.658,"end":819.393,"text":"不要講次數企業的參與率健康指標改善幅度還有地區分佈分析我們講健康不平等所以我們就希望職場的這上面的問題要正視它還有這個未來你要好好想一下人手一增收收增真的是適當的嗎可是是不是一個好方法美國都這麼做了其他國家要怎麼辦"},{"start":821.636,"end":823.841,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我們朝這個方向來努力"}]}},{"id":"166285","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166285","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0b5d47ed45b1ef2c5ff56a78bd28eb12244a569ea12001d971bd147f165fa27cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:14:47 - 10:25:40","影片長度":"00:10:53","會議時間":"2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(討論事項)\n一、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-10","start_time":"2025-12-10T10:14:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-10T10:25:40+08:00","duration":653,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":7.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.907218750000002,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.864718750000002,"end":19.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.332843750000002,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.52221875,"end":17.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.918468750000002,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.17534375,"end":25.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.777843750000002,"end":35.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.99159375,"end":36.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.20659375,"end":41.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.74159375,"end":72.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.36971875,"end":81.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.90846875000001,"end":85.53659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.02596875,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.78909375,"end":90.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.76784375000001,"end":97.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.41221875000001,"end":99.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.11659375,"end":106.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.37284375,"end":111.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.65471875,"end":123.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.77096875000001,"end":125.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.95221875000001,"end":126.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.27659375000002,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.50409375,"end":140.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.00034375,"end":165.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.65909375,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.02971875,"end":170.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.65409375000002,"end":182.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.36096875,"end":184.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.01471875000001,"end":214.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.36471875,"end":219.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.57534375,"end":216.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.10221875000002,"end":223.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.54034375,"end":224.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.14784375000002,"end":225.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.45971875,"end":227.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.69159375,"end":235.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.30221875,"end":238.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.77034375000002,"end":237.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.25096875000003,"end":242.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.62596875000003,"end":244.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.46534375000002,"end":254.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.04159375,"end":258.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.22659375,"end":261.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.16284375000004,"end":263.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.31034375,"end":277.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.02971875000003,"end":279.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.64971875000003,"end":280.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.29096875,"end":282.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.90659375,"end":289.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.17971875,"end":291.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.83346875,"end":300.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.92909375,"end":301.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.72221875,"end":307.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.21909375,"end":317.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.38221875,"end":320.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.12846875,"end":322.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.01846875,"end":330.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.25346875,"end":333.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.49784375,"end":336.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.75471875,"end":340.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.10846875000004,"end":341.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.72846875000005,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.28284375000004,"end":359.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.02471875000003,"end":376.63034375},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主席英明請時部長還有我們勞動力發展署副署長副署長 副署長 副署長副署長 副署長副署長 我今天問你三個問題我講話很清楚第一個"},{"start":26.892,"end":41.193,"text":"我們一百二十幾萬個身心障礙者而且人數好像有在增加他們的權益真的是非常重要他們也蠻辛苦的所以我等一下會講說我自己"},{"start":42.979,"end":72.282,"text":"做倫理在馬路上示給大家看那第一個就是我們勞動部7月1號公布一個身心障礙者職場合理調整行政指導不知道在寫什麼那7月1號到現在我們知道身心障礙者在職場上他的空間 他的尊嚴他的軟硬體要調整讓他比較鬆軟讓他不受歧視的感覺這個都非常重要"},{"start":73.423,"end":84.952,"text":"那我剛剛聽王毅民講我們國營事業台鐵啦台電都這樣啦看你不可以就連試用器都要衝掉我覺得我們國營事業自己本身都不說話"},{"start":86.112,"end":108.029,"text":"自己本身都不去配合那我要跟伯丁問的就是說你現在這裡的業者尤其是傳統業者這些中小企業的僱主他非常配合然後來禁用這些身心障礙者我覺得他們很偉大結果他們在街上街上吃的我們伯丁你們這裡有在"},{"start":113.071,"end":140.251,"text":"機器 還是幫人輔導 還是幫人贊助一些費用還是支援一些費用 不只是要求行政指導 行政指導要做什麼那不是你的事 還是勞動力發展時的事我想這個是在生權法下我們希望在身障者的權益的保障能夠更落實才有這個"},{"start":143.207,"end":169.199,"text":"適材適用啦所以這個合理調整的概念大概是這樣考慮到身上者他的這個條件那麼安排合適的工作所以這個合理調整大概有些這樣的精神在那只是說透過這個勞動部的這個行政指導可以讓所有的業者僱主更清楚那麼所謂的合理調整的概念是什麼那怎麼樣來落實"},{"start":170.74,"end":199.236,"text":"你衛福部或是勞動力發展署或是社家署你們自己有什麼配套來鼓勵這裡的業者你叫他改黨改賽你不給他贊助什麼你講你講 來報告委員就是在協助中小企業對這一些障礙者做合理調整我們有一個植物再設計的補助那每一個勞工一年可以補助十萬塊那這裡面就會有包含比如說他的"},{"start":199.756,"end":227.292,"text":"就業輔具等等或者雇主為勞工做的一些環境的改善那另外也有像是手語翻譯聽打聽力協助職場人力協助等等都有這樣子協助他做你說一個人一個人頭10萬塊那10萬塊是給雇主去配合的措施勞工也可以自行申請那我們也有一個申請的網站所以這個錢是兩個人都可以申請"},{"start":229.393,"end":254.054,"text":"僱主申請幫勞工申請算人頭的那勞工可以申請他自己需要的那這個錢從哪裡來 是救安基金是不是每個人都救安基金 不過救安基金有什麼他可以促進就業那這些身障者他的才30%達到基本工資這是真的嗎 其他都under基本工資有這回事嗎"},{"start":256.089,"end":276.364,"text":"他們的收入都變 都很少31.2%報告委員如果依照我們最新的勞動狀況生長的勞動狀況調查目前他的平均薪資是最新的113年5月的統計是3732萬多"},{"start":282.952,"end":307.148,"text":"那怎麼會有統計說都在基本工資下面有達到基本工資的才31%這是你們的data嗎我剛剛報告的是113年去年我們做的全國生長者的勞動狀況調查的平均薪資好 那我問第二個問題就是PA就是Personal Assistance"},{"start":308.257,"end":317.666,"text":"部長 這PA是 台灣有很多人第二 這PA是在家 幫他做assistant或是說他去職場 這個PA怎麼拿去"},{"start":321.535,"end":341.184,"text":"哇 這樣還得了這個120萬個生長業者如果有60萬人去上班那我們到底是多少批的剛才有人說一天賺到一千千這個是取高合寡還是利益良善但是做不到 不對"},{"start":342.942,"end":360.268,"text":"當然這個做個人助理的部分他不只是只有生活啦還有包含他的那些這個職場也有啦那所以目前投入的人力不多啦還沒有超過一千人"},{"start":361.769,"end":379.709,"text":"所以這個人數上確實是這是聯合國什麼CRPD要求的嘛這是衛福部在qualify這個PA還是勞動部在qualify個人助理是我們在認證的"},{"start":381.693,"end":399.042,"text":"所以是你們招聘 然後上課 然後認證對 認證啦 主要是上課 開課 然後訓練然後取得資格這樣所以這個人基本條件是要什麼他的財富要怎麼 要送點錢還是有薪水"},{"start":400.109,"end":421.51,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上在個人助理的部分目前其實在我們人員辦法裡頭有規定他的一個資格是高中以上畢業然後受訓25小時就可以那這25小時的內容包括了自立生活的精神還有如何協助支持等等所以這些是縣市政府在管理然後錢啊 錢怎麼算"},{"start":424.624,"end":435.168,"text":"個人助理的費用是我們中央補助一部分多數是在地方政府編列的預算所以這裡簽的 管理不是幾十萬這樣"},{"start":438.632,"end":445.897,"text":"分佈上我們再統計一下各縣市的資料所以我要跟主席報告我們這樣講到整大堆我看基本上人手沒夠 訓練也沒夠你說一個高中畢業最少25小時可以做"},{"start":457.965,"end":472.737,"text":"這個Personal System做PA 他的領域是有救護我們造服務員是這樣 訓練到要外遊去 課到要試醫 做造服務員這到底領域有救護 台服有救護 算點錢還是算這都要好好來研究一下"},{"start":477.921,"end":493.086,"text":"跟各位說這個也就是目前碰到的困境我們現在有長照的服務居家服務長照的居家服務又有個人助理這一塊因為這兩邊提供服務的人的條件"},{"start":493.926,"end":509.525,"text":"不相當所以就才會有這個身上者提出說為什麼他已經有個人助理那他個人助理不能幫他做這個事情還要再另外透過居家服務譬如說他有這個我們居家服務有沐浴服務那這個又"},{"start":511.106,"end":534.011,"text":"這個長照人員才能做那個人助理他本身如果不具有長照人員資格他就不能做這行所以他就會認為說服務的切割啦但是這個如果通通要包進來那確實是這個訓練的部分就要你一個身心障礙者他也要請長照的人還要請個人助理這樣可以嗎一個人可以兩選"},{"start":536.571,"end":557.303,"text":"我們目前是沒有排斥啦現在這個沒有互斥性啦只是說這個我上個禮拜跟這些身障團體溝通他們是認為說我還要再去找別人啦說我已經有一個個人助理了但是呢當我遇到某些服務的時候我還要再去找長照人員進來"},{"start":559.284,"end":568.409,"text":"我覺得這個真的知識體大 要整合啦要整合啦 齁 另外想問的要大家報告齁我們身心障礙者 你說我20秒就對了 主席我都讓你說20秒"},{"start":573.752,"end":596.959,"text":"來 我們的身心障礙者我們感同身受 都是我們的寶貝所以他們的所有權益我們一定要不管是立法會委員 不管是各縣市的首長像我們主席要選選管定的人 都要跟他們拼命所以我自己在東港 我自己借輪椅借輪椅到那個花橋池 漁市場那裡 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再想的委員先進列席的政務監事長 官員會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請財政部莊部長還有我們國家金融安定基金管理委員會我們阮執行秘書 就是我們阮次長好 請莊部長 阮次長等一下等這一個黃珊珊委員質詢之後我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":24.107,"end":27.409,"text":"國安基金從89年到214年總共25年的時間市值成長了10.5倍外資持比的比例雖然是多了38%但實際上也增加了8倍"},{"start":47.222,"end":64.12,"text":"日均交易额从1000多亿变成4800亿也成长了将近4.5倍那其中最近这几年外资的卖超也差不多在1000亿900多亿所以目前相较于国安基金的总额5000亿应付这样的一个变化"},{"start":65.031,"end":82.038,"text":"你認為足夠嗎跟委員報告因為雖然現在講的是五千億但事實上我們實際上可以用的只有兩千億那以目前的這個市場的規模跟交易的規模來看的話事實上我們在護盤因為我護過三次所以以我的經驗"},{"start":83.379,"end":107.29,"text":"我們在戶的時候為什麼大家都說那2000億都沒用完事實上就是因為我們因為額度很小所以我們在戶盤是非常謹慎如果是說碰到大的一些這個外資口袋要夠深 戶盤才有夠力不是口袋掏空了來戶盤而是要有夠深的口袋去戶盤是不是這樣的意思好 謝謝那我們知道了好 那今天請莊部長2000億實在是太低了好 謝謝 請莊部長來 莊部長我們才經歷過"},{"start":111.972,"end":133.845,"text":"我們行政院提出了一個特別預算結果立法院本院提出了修正案結果要增加每個民眾普發現金一萬元增加支出兩千三百五十億請問後來行政院有照做嗎普發現金一萬做了沒做了啊有增加舉債額度嗎有叫原來的舉債額度增加嗎有 因為我們有再舉債一千多億"},{"start":134.721,"end":147.505,"text":"後來又要被迫因為立法院的決議被迫要再增加舉債1000億好我們看一下最近地方政府也有民意機關提出在嘉義市議會國民黨團的書獎提出說要求市政府普發3000塊結果要5毛給1塊"},{"start":151.487,"end":179.705,"text":"這個嘉義市長說不舉債的方式發六千中央發一萬要舉債多一千億多一千多一嘉義市不用舉債可以三千變六千部長你有沒有很羨慕嘉義市的財政近年地方政府的財政確實有改善許多有在中央政府的那個財源的挹注之下以及地方政府的努力之下都增加很多所以他是存在用稅基證與發的嗎"},{"start":181.291,"end":206.068,"text":"這個部分因為是屬於他們地方自治的一些事項但是我們認為財務資源的運用我們認為應該以政策要優先考量相關的地方建設所以嘉義市政府好像不是只有嘉義市政府特別好本來我以為只有嘉義市特別好結果新竹市政府他也在明年度要發五千塊你所知道新竹市政府發這五千塊普發現金有要增加舉債嗎"},{"start":207.782,"end":229.787,"text":"還是通通讓他稅計剩餘對他這個部分我不太了解他的裁員是來自於龍芝裁員還是他自由裁員不只是新竹市 往下看現在台北市 新北市 桃園市 台中的六都市長都是國民黨籍的結果民進黨在議員 在民意機關提出了要怎樣要提出普發先遷2萬1 4萬6 1萬5 5萬不等其中桃園市是市議員提案還不見得哪個黨派也通過了"},{"start":236.668,"end":242.135,"text":"請問你認為如果六都的市議會通過了要補拍現金你認為行政首長 市長會不會照做"},{"start":245.882,"end":270.049,"text":"跟委員報告由於他們這樣通過事實上是一百一十五年是按照新版就是通過的才化法各地方政府我們可以看到新竹市在中央統籌分配稅款裡面增或他的成長是達到兩百五十五百分之兩百五十五新竹縣也達到兩百五十幾所以但有些地方政府不根本沒有增加這麼多這就是一個不均衡的問題請問一下你說新竹市嘉義市因為我們"},{"start":275.293,"end":293.063,"text":"去年年底12月通的財化法因此他們在明年115年獲配的統統分配稅款大幅增加所以不用舉債就足夠有錢來發現金是這個意思嗎那請問這些六都的四都是不是也是財政很好所以他們議會就可以通過來發現金"},{"start":296.835,"end":315.79,"text":"以直轄市來說確實台北市增加的更高還有啊還有基隆 新竹 彰化你剛講新竹縣對不對雲林 花蓮哇你看看這裡面呢都是國民黨的縣市長然後呢提案有兩萬三萬四五千一萬五萬不等其中花蓮縣已經決議通過了"},{"start":317.731,"end":335.346,"text":"新竹縣也是提案通過所以看起來新竹縣就像你說的因為去年12月通過的新版財劃法我們財政部中央政府根據新版財劃法撥給的地方增加很多錢所以他們新竹縣也可以花3萬4花蓮縣也可以花5萬是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":336.525,"end":351.96,"text":"他們的中央統籌分配算法確實是倍數成長的好 那這樣我就很奇怪了結果我們去年12月通過的財化法立法院的多數在野黨還不滿足他說還要再播出更多出來我們來看一下"},{"start":352.941,"end":377.607,"text":"立法院立法之後要求行政院普發先行一萬元我們要用舉債來支應結果根據立法院通過的去年12月的財化法地方議會他因為發現明年地方貨幣的增加了他做成決議要求地方政府有的發有的不發欸 奇怪那如果地方議會決定要發地方縣市政府可不可以不執行"},{"start":379.884,"end":408.804,"text":"是屬於他們地方自治的事情好 這裡就很有趣了明明有錢民意機關也支持但是到現在很多縣市長好像還沒有決定要執行這跟目前國會多數的在野黨所表達的說喔 行政院啊財化法去年12月通過的我們在今年的11月又通過了一個更好的把中央的散財同時 散財更多的那麼他們擔心你們不執行了請問行政院的立場是什麼"},{"start":409.324,"end":414.094,"text":"我們來看一下 對於11月通過的財化法不是去年12月的 你們要怎麼做"},{"start":418.033,"end":446.294,"text":"委員報告 今年11月14號通過的這個財化法它要求是一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款都不能照變動比去年12月的增加更多多會更增加到一兆4329億那會比新版就去年底通過的增加2646億將2600多億啦我們來看一下預算法立法院要遵守預算法 立法院當然要 這法律大家都要遵守快近年目前四個月提出來立法院審議行政院有做了嘛 對不對"},{"start":448.323,"end":461.152,"text":"對 預算法立法院在明年度開始前一個月要議決現在剩不到一個月了有沒有完成議決目前來說看起來還沒有都還沒有審查都還沒開始審查不可能合乎預算法51條"},{"start":463.226,"end":491.562,"text":"在野黨占多數的國會已經明白違反了預算法了嘛然後呢他還要求怎樣你們現在送來的是根據去年12月的財化法現在立法院的多數就是在野黨要求你們要根據11月的財化法重新編制預算可以嗎我想明年度的總預算已經在大院那還是請大院能夠交付審查然後可以讓新的施政可以繼續推動好那我們來看一下除了違反"},{"start":492.763,"end":512.53,"text":"你說的大運是立法院違反預算法之外我們看財政紀律法 他說立法委員所提法律院大幅增加政府稅出或陰鮮指明彌補資金的來源請問本院在11月通過的更新的財政收支劃分法大幅增加了中央政府的支出有沒有"},{"start":513.634,"end":538.75,"text":"大幅增加了中央政府的支出是2600多億增加2600億有沒有彌補資金的來源有沒有指名沒有沒有好而且財政紀律法第7條你也說了各級機關包括立法院在修訂法律的時候不得增訂固定經費額度或比率保障請問去年12月的財化法或今年11月的財化法有沒有這樣做有沒有增訂固定經費額度或比率保障"},{"start":539.837,"end":556.698,"text":"这个部分确实对于尤其是今年11月14号通过对于一般性补助款跟计划型补助款都要求不能各县市而且是各县市都不能减少这个会影响到调进财政营需的问题对不对 额度跟比例保障那这样有没有违反财政纪律法"},{"start":557.407,"end":580.456,"text":"我想這個部分光是超過這個公債的比例就已經是更是不只是財政紀律法還有公債法我們看公債法公債法的舉債額度不得超過15%那去年12月的跟今年11月的剛剛已經把你整理出來了去年12月的多了快3000億今年再修的11月又多了2646億增加了5600多億舉債要佔到17.1有沒有違反公債法"},{"start":586.298,"end":605.487,"text":"當然違反因為公債法上限是15%財政部可以違反公債法嗎不行公務員都必須要克遵法律財政部可以違反財政紀律法嗎當然也不行啊是法律立法院可以違反預算法嗎所有公職人員都不能違反法律包括立法院是好那請問吃這個也養吃那個也養"},{"start":607.25,"end":628.164,"text":"要不你就是違反立法院通過的財化法要不你就是違反立法院通過的預算法財政機率法跟公債法你覺得你選擇要違反哪一個我們都不可以違背法律那你怎麼辦你那個也不違法這個也不違法都做不到啊那我們往下看現在的問題啊我們剛剛看到那個情況中央要"},{"start":630.047,"end":648.9,"text":"執行立法院通過的普發現金一萬塊要舉債地方議會通過要普發現金是不用舉債地方政府很有錢用稅計證明就可以了還有人敢不發結果立法院通過的財政收支方法要你違法舉債再分配給地方政府你覺得這是不是劫貧計負"},{"start":650.699,"end":665.865,"text":"在分配上不均衡的結果就是讓負者更負 但是然後真正比較財政弱的縣市沒有獲得補助 而且也讓中央的財政失去了韌性這樣的情況 違法違憲這是你財政部可以說的嗎"},{"start":667.898,"end":688.279,"text":"我想財政部不管怎麼樣都必須在合法這個不是你財政部說的這是憲法大法官4-391號說的因為根據我們的憲法59條根據70條所以4-391做成了如果立法院做出了剛剛所說的事情不用需要財政部來說他違法違憲大法官就說他違法違憲了你同意嗎"},{"start":690.927,"end":711.074,"text":"當然憲法上的爭議是由大法官的憲法法庭來審議這不是未來 過去就有講過了未來現在憲法庭攤換了好那這邊可以了最後一個小事情拜託小規模營業人導入行動支付的營業稅優惠我們講很久了部長來得及在今年年底定案我們明年有機會開始宣導進行嗎"},{"start":712.834,"end":730.505,"text":"我知道這個案子我們複稅署已經簽出來目前還在做一個更細緻的那你上次答應我11月底為目標達成了沒目前來說已經進度是到滿前面所以你核定了嗎目前還沒有到部長怎麼會問署長的不是說在你桌上"},{"start":731.285,"end":752.727,"text":"上我桌上嗎沒有 這個部分來 署長講一下這個問現在在誰那裡什麼時候可以公告請署長盡量回答是 報告委員這個案件因為我們為了做細緻化處理中間有一些法律上的意見目前我們已經又再沉上去了正在沉上去在你跟部長之間要不我去找一找你們之間有一張公文嗎在誰那裡"},{"start":754.789,"end":779.868,"text":"我回去盡快看部長這個我已經聽兩個星期了我真的要把你們兩個之間找到看有沒有紙要掉在地上一紙公文送出了財政負稅署還沒到達部長室那到底這紙公文在哪裡部長可不可以承諾本週內給我們一個明確的答案可以嗎我想本週內給您一個答案一定是可以那年底前我們把它完成好嗎好謝謝中委員接下來我們請林思敏召委"}]}},{"id":"166263","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166263","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0f7f58179f1016307ed0cecc406237e96e95b9c653acd4d7207496cb2378364c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:32:14 - 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有請李部長請部長"},{"start":19.999,"end":39.005,"text":"劉委員你好 部長好我們看到11月5號的時候您已經在立法院告知目前的公共電視文化基金會的董事的名單當中你們當時說的是差了一個人目前的進度 剛才說昨天有開會 對不對現在的進度當中預計是盡快的會送出去 對不對"},{"start":45.848,"end":71.644,"text":"到那個規定就是我們成立了這個審議委員會之後當我們的名單已經差不多出來的時候那現在一位大概補足了嗎夠了 已經差不多了就是因為當我們的這個審議委員會會開預備會議他們就開始討論下一次什麼時候開始審議然後我們就在四單的時候會公佈名單所以您剛才問的問題最後一位補足那個我們在四單的時候就公佈全部的名單"},{"start":72.764,"end":98.911,"text":"讓整個社會看到現在有一個問題我們看到在公共電視法第13條裡面有講到有員工代表的董事那是由公視基金會的企業工會來去推派那請問一下公視這邊有沒有已經準備好了一個一個工會的董事代表有有有已經有了所以這個名單目前還不能公佈因為還在審議已經對外公佈有沒有詹仕傑因為這次代表的是跟工會跟公視的支持"},{"start":99.551,"end":119.447,"text":"是 它是員工 工會所推選產生那這個名單已經出來了我記出來了齁 所以這個名單已經出來了就一位嗎 還是一位好 那這個大家就可以再繼續追蹤齁那另外我 部長我也再請問到您上次的時候我也問到是說可以採取這種中選會的方式齁 這樣的提名的方式去跟各政黨來徵詢齁 那"},{"start":120.928,"end":145.662,"text":"包括是在公共電視法的第3條第5項有提到這邊那您後來說你會回去思考那這邊你們現在就是怎麼樣的一個方向呢按照公司法規定這個名單一定要由行政院提出來讓我們文化部就是一個幕僚單位然後由立法院按照那個比例選出重新再產生一個"},{"start":148.801,"end":168.351,"text":"我的意思是說他有一個一定的程序然後政黨比例只能選出那個評議委員那評議委員在審查我們所提的名單如果對名單有意見或者怎麼樣的話就有一個直播對外非常公開"},{"start":169.071,"end":185.682,"text":"因為在公共廣播集團的董事跟監事他地位是很崇高的他必須要一個社會公正人士選拔的過程中好 你就是會兼顧到這個重黨所以剛剛提到那個 由政黨比例那個是不符合原來公共電視法的"},{"start":186.883,"end":209.896,"text":"沒有 它是說比例不能超過自分之一就是它已經有這樣的規定了好 就是有注意到這個部分那我們繼續往下看我看到是說公視的經營績效在113年的確有改善是正的 是盈餘的但是我們現在到114年看到是目前也是正的但是你在115年的預算的部分那你有提到是預計會虧損那為什麼會預計有虧損的情形呢"},{"start":213.218,"end":224.47,"text":"還包括說 包括自籌款的這一部分這個績效也是很重要的您這邊回答一下還包括像版權的營收大概會賺多少因為這也是產業說公視真的是有在有自籌款的這樣一個能力這個部分因為涉及到明年的編的預算我是不是請公視董事長來回答好 請吳董事長"},{"start":236.295,"end":247.086,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們的財務我們基本上來講都是按照第一個是政府捐贈的部分加上我們對製作館的預估收入然後來進行整體預算的規劃"},{"start":248.581,"end":267.964,"text":"那政府的這個捐贈收入當然還要看大院的審核率您說的是我現在說預計我們當初會想會虧損你們現在一三年已經是正的請您要針對問題要回答其實我們這幾年有出現虧損的主要原因第一個就是任列華市的虧損"},{"start":268.965,"end":285.184,"text":"那因为我们拥有83%左右的华氏股份所以华氏的亏损我们必须认定不过那个不会影响到公司的现金的一个运用所以它直接上是并不会造成公司财务运作上的困难就等华氏再去把它处理就好了"},{"start":285.484,"end":307.099,"text":"那自籌款的部分應該現在看到是有大概七八趴這種情況那這個會再增加嗎如果是增加是往哪些方向發展是跟委員報告自籌款的收入最主要的差異其實就是版權收入的部分當我們有比較多的戲劇產出那這些在全球或台灣的版權收入就會比較高"},{"start":307.759,"end":324.11,"text":"那其他部分當然還是有受到一些影響譬如說前兩年當我們的公司法修正之後造成的所以你們現在還是沒有一個數據要呈現嗎就是說大概往方向目標這個部分去呈現當然我們還是努力要增加我們請總經理來說一下增加目標"},{"start":325.316,"end":352.05,"text":"好的 其实我们自筹款主要几个来源一个就是版权收入 一个是租金的收入另外就是捐赠的收入那其实目前影响它的水位的主要是版权收入因为我们版权收入大概占我们所有自筹款的三分之二所以这个版权收入跟当年戏剧的销售有关所以113那么高其实是我的婆婆怎么那么可爱的二 它其实是销售的版权成绩是"},{"start":352.17,"end":373.215,"text":"所以你們預計應該是未來有機會要變成正的對不對因為目前你們現在得了這麼久因為得獎並不等於就是要還是收視率或是說他的版權辦得出來嘛那我們預期是希望如此那大概有幾部片子呢其實明年大概是兩部其實我們以我們目前能量一年大概自製的都是兩部左右"},{"start":373.795,"end":395.554,"text":"那所以這個兩步也涉及到我們投資的資金比例我們投資資金越高回收佔比也就越高所以其實現在業界的這個製作費越來越高的狀況之下其實這個先回收的這個困難度其實也是越來越高但是我們是跟業界一起努力打拼希望達到這個目標那我們看到剛才說的113年的這個53.33億可是這部分"},{"start":399.877,"end":420.132,"text":"華視的到底它的虧損是多少這部分我想因為我的其他還有很多議題我就先請到時候請公視的董事長是不是可以請之後來部分這個做回答好 謝謝我們現在看另外一個你所問的問題很大的一個問題數位轉型是你們重要的一個目標但是它數位轉型它很重要的是需要配合CDM的內容傳輸網路"},{"start":422.133,"end":449.621,"text":"那這邊就問一下請問在你做OTT的這個經營上面有很大的網路的CDN的成本那公視在這邊CDN的支出預算是多少我還是請董事長或總經理來回答好像沒有馬上補位是不是這邊缺乏總經理許總經理回答這個其實是非常的高我們其實一年因為我們非常多部門都需要所以大概一個月都是幾百萬"},{"start":450.461,"end":466.713,"text":"甚至一千萬左右的支出所以你們是用出租的還是用自己建置的都是租的自己建置的部分非常少自己建置的是我們內部的資料這個沒有辦法上雲但是像我們經營公事家這些就是其實是需要雲的這個部分這個是用租的"},{"start":467.193,"end":492.317,"text":"是用租的好所以這個價格已經知道那現在連包括說因為是OTT的關係所以你們的部分有提到公司家啦公司新聞網小公視啊等等的台灣plus這些部分可是我覺得最重要的是這些數據啊都是點閱率啊我們現在很重要是說有沒有一個有效的營運績效指標的建立啊因為這邊的觀看數據裡面如果只看點閱率甚至包括是有"},{"start":492.737,"end":520.074,"text":"追蹤數 追蹤數跟活躍定物跟停留時間這部分其實都不夠呈現深度的一個了解啊這部分怎麼回答呢其實我們在這個數位指標上都有設定KPI所以其實我們除了這個點閱率之外我們還有一個要求就是所謂的加薪率也就是說他收看這個然後願意因為看這個已經成為公視會員所以這個也是我們的指標之一所以我們對於每個節目其實是有單項指標"},{"start":521.575,"end":547.592,"text":"你有錯但是我現在變成說有效的有效的這些出去尤其是我要想的就是你們講到小公視這邊小公視一個很大的問題我先說一下小公視的問題它事實上是一個無線數位頻道對不對那它有針對尤其是無線是全國都可以覆蓋的它的平均的收視率是怎麼樣你們跟Nelson要做比較嗎Nelson的這個數據出現嗎沒有其實小公視我們是沒有買尼爾森收視率的為什麼因為尼爾森收視率"},{"start":547.932,"end":572.823,"text":"它的這個4到9歲的樣本可以說是非常非常少但是它是跟華視放在一起的對不對同一個平台同樣一個12無線的電視台你說頻道嗎對對頻道在無線其實我們現在在有線電視系統裡面小公視是大概每個系統台不一樣有的在200有的在121有的在80幾台所以其實我們已經現在是無線台耶"},{"start":573.523,"end":595.282,"text":"無線台它是 對 那個frequency是比較接近對 在華市附近無線台只有18台所以如果是12的話 如果是無線台是全國都收跟有線是不一樣的啊但是用無線接收的人非常的少大部分都是有線接收 甚至是網路收看其實現在兒童用網路收看的比例非常非常的高"},{"start":596.84,"end":614.528,"text":"我就是說這邊請你要做出來這樣子的一個請公共電視給這些的像你們所說的OPTT的平台這邊的包括了這有效的觀看數據的要呈現出來做個報告然後還有自製委託跟外購的比例尤其是跟那小公視啊我自己本身是公視之友我承認齁"},{"start":615.408,"end":642.481,"text":"我蠻喜歡看的 但是卻呈現到是說你們給我的公視只有當中我特別看到的我如果有四頁的內容當中兩頁就是指的是外國買的品的內容這部分我希望引到自製委託跟外購的比例一定要呈現出來就是下次給我報告好 另外這部分有個很重要的問題是在於公視啊準備拿國發基金38億去做IP的開發投資這部分有嗎"},{"start":646.786,"end":653.544,"text":"這個不是IP的投資 這個是應該是講哪一個 我卻不能確定它是講哪一個"},{"start":655.166,"end":675.402,"text":"我們在委員所提的這個我們真的不曉得有這個案子那不過我們最近是有個案子跟文化部在討論也向相關的部會去說明因為你們自己在報告當中有說IP建設是你們一個重要第三項的內容喔那個不是 那是IP based broadcasting那個是IP化IP的呼籲計畫"},{"start":677.583,"end":693.751,"text":"IP的呼吁是另外一件事那是包括内容的IP的呼吁但我们并没有这个案子那我们在另外一个比较大的案子那是在做基础建设的IP化AI化跟平台化的好所以这部分就"},{"start":694.651,"end":722.198,"text":"但確定 但確定 但是必須強調的是如果新聞能夠傳到這個新聞的話因為IP的開發的確花很多錢好 再請現在的主席等我一下下這有一個很大的問題在說看到的是在台灣plus裡面出現到他在松江路的辦公室跟他的設置器材的攝影棚裡面他是放在一個這個淡黃區啊這個城中的非常重要的在南京松江捷運上面"},{"start":723.178,"end":741.734,"text":"那每年的租金包括相關的設備等等的放置是一年兩千萬這部分如果你的真正用辦公室才六十坪可是黃金地段做的放置是五百五十坪在放置這是符合效率的原則嗎如果你像華氏這部分如果移過去那邊有空間不是很好嗎"},{"start":742.568,"end":762.602,"text":"跟委員報告,我們在那裡的坪數是561坪,但扣掉公共設施以後,實際使用是343坪,其中裡面包括36坪的攝影棚,12坪的機房,員工大概160位是在將近不到200坪的空間裡面使用,所以我們那邊有160多位同仁在上班,還有40多位在華市上班。"},{"start":762.602,"end":786.047,"text":"好 你們這樣的部分喔 因為跟我們看到媒體的這個消息是不太一樣的提供是我們提供給委員的 給委員正確的好 這邊要呈現出來 不然真的會呈現說是最貴的一個攝影棚跟器材室的一個放在這麼重要的位置沒有 那不是倉庫 那是現在有160多位同仁在上班的主要辦公空間好 那這一部分呢還有就是再請一下 謝謝 我們現在請的是胡萬寧社長抱歉喔 這個 稍微 主席"},{"start":793.1,"end":794.46,"text":"很快就結束吼好的好吳社長吼因為您上次針對我在11月5號的問題有回應的吼那現在有個問題是在於提出來的這個辦法就是你們最近在11月11號有做了一個海外派駐人員的設施的海外派駐人員的一個辦法對不對"},{"start":820.248,"end":847.068,"text":"那這個辦法當中齁其實最重要的是依照說社務的需要跟國際形象的需求對不對那這個地方有沒有客觀的一個更具體的一個在委員會上面去做一個針對這邊事實上提出來的一個標準其實報告委員齁最理想的狀況是如果我們作為台灣的媒體能夠在全世界每個地方都放的人是最理想我們最大的受限還是來自於經費不足所以我們才會考慮分級"},{"start":847.748,"end":876.028,"text":"那么比方像美国这个华盛顿很重要你们华盛顿发了三四个这几个比方像布鲁塞尔这是欧盟的中心那么英国法国德国都很重要这个我们就优先派任我们自己的人那其他的就案件记仇特约的方式尽量争取更多的人派出不同的好但是你们刚才在报告当中我有听到一个印尼是你们这次有发现用印尼语对不对可是在就算是派驻人员或者是在"},{"start":877.089,"end":891.885,"text":"案件基础本都没有印尼的人士到底是发生什么事情不够吗报告委员最近我才刚刚在十几天前亲自跑了印尼一趟一方面是去参加亚洲电视奖大家请节制一下时间"},{"start":893.166,"end":909.193,"text":"因為印尼政府現在已經不允許所有外籍人士去擔任他們在當駐地記者包括CNN兩個月前他們的記者都被禁止採訪所以我們現在正在努力爭取曾經留台畢業生印尼籍因為印尼是單一國籍"},{"start":910.273,"end":939.693,"text":"所以我們正在處理現在有些街頭有些人選才開始但他們我們都希望這個原則是這些人在台灣受過教育也懂台灣的文化能夠用中文靈魂運用我想希望在開春以後啊就能找到人好謝謝就經過這個中央社行我覺得蠻好的一個報告就是在於他之前呢就承認的把我們的回應就是我們其中的問題做了回應城池全隊有時候虧損的問題那就請大家就是在文化部裡面相關的就再繼續再努力謝謝"},{"start":943.798,"end":944.279,"text":"好 谢谢"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}