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大家好今天很榮幸能代表核安會並接同各單位主管向大院進行業務報告首先向大院委員及本會各項工作的支持致上最深的敬意及謝誠"},{"start":1640.011,"end":1662.712,"text":"核安会是我国核能及辐射安全的专责主管机关独立行使原子能安全管制工作以下仅就强化原子能安全管制等四项工作重点进行报告进行委员不定指教首先在强化原子能安全管制确保公共安全的部分"},{"start":1664.882,"end":1669.169,"text":"針對核電廠安全管制本會持續對國內核電廠執行各項安全審查及現場視察並辦理"},{"start":1674.369,"end":1694.799,"text":"追踪与管制以确保核定厂运作安全此外本会以依总统公布之核管法第六条修正条文完成原子能反应器设置运转执照申请审核办法修订作业并于10月8日刊登行政院公报正式施行"},{"start":1697.26,"end":1724.586,"text":"在放射性废弃物安全管制方面本会与监督台电完成核一厂室外干储7座互相运储作业并定期派员查核核二厂室外干储兴建此外严格审查核二厂厨艺低放储存库建造申请案并于9月中办理听证会以强化资讯公开及公众参与"},{"start":1726.448,"end":1753.562,"text":"在强化福灾准备作业部分本会透过视察核电厂以及在核产场举行核安演习将用过燃料池意外事故重大威胁以及复合式灾害等纳入演习情境强化福灾应变准备此外与辐射灾害应变训练导入虚拟实践提升应变人员实作技能"},{"start":1755.68,"end":1776.833,"text":"在辐射民生应用安全管制方面执行放射线照相检验工地不预警稽查导入移动型辐射源科技监控技术并设置新一代辐射源安全管理资讯系统平台提升辐射源"},{"start":1778.069,"end":1798.257,"text":"管制效能此外 办理相关设备之辐射医疗曝露品宝作业访查并建置辐射安全防护文化数位学习网强化从业人员辐射安全智能在全国辐射"},{"start":1800.991,"end":1826.946,"text":"全国环境辐射监测方面全年无休稳定运作全台有33座环境辐射监测站监测结果没有异常同时针对全国放射性落成及核设施周围等进行检测至2014年11月完成4804监测分析结果都没有异常"},{"start":1829.301,"end":1854.307,"text":"针对日本寒川废水盘放持续跨部会合作执行海域监测至114年11月完成3954监测分析结果无异常此外为提升国内生物川检测品质三间生物川分析实验室均已取得食药署之认证强化民众对检测结果之信心"},{"start":1856.124,"end":1862.631,"text":"接下來要報告推廣原子能科技創新培育跨域人才"},{"start":1865.134,"end":1887.478,"text":"在拓展国际交流并删减核子保防义务部分持续与美国、日本等核安管制机构定型召开会议进行交流并获得IAEA连续19年宣告我国所有核物料均用于核能和平用途之肯定"},{"start":1889.11,"end":1904.798,"text":"在推动社会沟通与原子能科普教育部分设立全民参与事务咨询委员会针对社会关注之议题之沟通模式邀请咨询委员给予指导与建议"},{"start":1905.618,"end":1918.923,"text":"另外办理原子能科普展参与科学及灾防防堤管活动并办理教师研习课程以多元管道扩大原子能科普资讯传播"},{"start":1920.583,"end":1943.406,"text":"为落实原子能科技的研发之民生应用,114年本会与国科会共同补助学术合作研究计划,62项,共31所大专业院校及研究机构参与,建立原子能科技跨运力整合能量,促进研究发展与人才培育。"},{"start":1947.495,"end":1975.82,"text":"此外本会补助国务院院执行各项计划建立原子能关键技术发展能源级和透端技术在建立原子能关键技术方面国务院院开发全球首创技术可有效评估干功能荣获2025年全球百大科技研发奖令研发长效性"},{"start":1977.119,"end":1997.976,"text":"行摄护腺癌治疗药物正积极推动临床试验此外开发二氧化碳分离膜制备技术可应用于高温二氧化碳之捕捉突破市售商品仅能于低温操作的限制"},{"start":2000.049,"end":2019.634,"text":"国营院已开发长压环境操作之低能量直子照射平台,提供太空元件辐射验证测试,并布局宽能系高功率元件技术,所开发的晶片缺陷密度已优于商业水准。"},{"start":2022.335,"end":2051.449,"text":"在发展能源及后端技术方面国务院愿用核设施清理经验及技术建立本土厨艺技术自主能力并配合政府能源转型政策提升新型金属支撑固态氧化物电解电池单元的产性效率以及建立木质素高效率萃取技术提升本土能源基础能量"},{"start":2053.806,"end":2078.686,"text":"为接轨新世代核技术本会补助国营院进行SMR先期研究强化我国SMR技术自主能力此外国营院执行磁约束高温电浆研究计划以完成国内首座球型TOKMOK实验装置的细部设计正进行组件采购与装配为后市运转测试做好准备"},{"start":2080.336,"end":2104.956,"text":"本会将依法独立行使职权继续执行核能辐射及放射性物料安全管制工作同时精进原子能科技研究拓展相关民生应用并落实资讯公开与公众参与以增进民生福祉与环境永续以上报告不尽之处进行委员指教谢谢"},{"start":2110.031,"end":2111.96,"text":"好謝謝主委請回座"},{"start":2115.763,"end":2144.562,"text":"現在進行詢答每位初席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘夜席委員質詢4分鐘發言登記截止時間為今天上午10時30分委員如有臨時提案請於10時30分前提出並於本會委員會的羅廷偉委員質詢結束後期就會進行處理處理提案時若提案委員"},{"start":2146.003,"end":2161.391,"text":"及連署委員均不在場就不予處理首先先請登記發言第一位的柯智恩委員質詢謝謝召委我們是不是請陳主委陳主委請"},{"start":2170.748,"end":2192.485,"text":"主委好请问一下就你目前的了解台电是否有提出终止核二核三的厨艺计划目前的进度是如何我说的是厨艺哦我没有收到这方面的终止厨艺计划那目前两座核电厂的厨艺的程序进行到什么地方了"},{"start":2193.43,"end":2218.83,"text":"你們還是他的監管單位嘛對 我們他們還是進行之中對 進行到什麼程度我請那個高處長跟委員報告那廚藝計畫核安會已經審查完成完成了 核二核三都已經廚藝的計畫已經審查完成了對 可是現在要依法規就是台電公司要依法提出環境影響評估的報告對嘛"},{"start":2220.031,"end":2246.093,"text":"所以还要再提出环境的评估报告好了那目前我还知道最近有很热门的话题就是经济部也是特别提到的核三可能在2028年可以重启也就是再运转所以呢好像让大家看到核三跟核二又有一丝的一个机会了所以呢核安会到底会先收到的再运转计划还是除以计划我现在被搞得有点很混乱"},{"start":2248.197,"end":2262.525,"text":"更委員那應該是台電公司都依法來申請那廚藝許可申請那是在執照到期前三年就提出來所以你們他們也送出了廚藝計畫已經完成現在目前在做的評估報告對不對廚藝的環評"},{"start":2265.187,"end":2281.38,"text":"環評報告那同樣的他們也有機會因為我們今年的5月當中呢就已經就核管法已經修過了還是可以申請這個再運轉所以當經濟部釋放出核二核三可能有機會再運轉的時候可能也會再送出再運轉的計畫報告沒錯吧"},{"start":2283.522,"end":2300.801,"text":"目前有收到吗目前还没有所以你们预估到底是废的这个到底是所以我说说像目前政策在怎么样就你们的主管单位来看你们好像只能做一个审查到底要再运转或是真正的除异完全是掌握在经济部的手上我这样的认知没有错吧"},{"start":2302.978,"end":2328.646,"text":"跟委員說明如果台電公司依法提出申請那核安位的職者就依法來審查對那最後到底你是要再運轉或者是要真正處理是由上面的單位來做決定嗎所有都是如果提出再運轉的申請那核安位就審查如果審查都可以符合法規跟安全的要求那依照法規核安位就會核發再運轉的部分換發運轉執照好"},{"start":2330.266,"end":2358.063,"text":"所以说吧目前来说那你认为就像目前经济部长说照国外的经验审查的时程如果要再运转的话可能一年半有可能到五六年之久那美国是18个月那你个人认为说目前来说核安会应该要审多久如果要再运转以核三来说的话2028年有没有顺利再运转有没有机会再顺利运转2028年有没有有没有机会再顺利运转我想跟韦英报告这个"},{"start":2359.525,"end":2388.692,"text":"审查时程有很多因素没关系你不要跟我讲那么多我只问一个因为呢我们核三五月才除役二零二八有没有机会再运转如果台电审查报告很完整我们的回复我们审查意见很能很快速回应我们现场视察都没有什么问题有没有重大的零件需要更换"},{"start":2389.292,"end":2403.282,"text":"那當然是有可能對啊因為他5月你們過去就安檢了5月才剛除役嘛所以2028來說的話照這樣的時程來看是有機會的不過到底我們核能政策要走到什麼程度來說你們目前就只是負責來做一個這個審查而已嘛對不對"},{"start":2406.364,"end":2430.853,"text":"好 说实在的 我觉得河安会的角色不应该只有是这样子我们现在看一下SMR目前来说的话呢 赖总统表态不排斥核能而且河安会似乎已经开始启动了你们明年要提出四年中长期计划预算8亿要开始来布局SMR 没错吧这数目还没有很确定但是你们变成8亿了表示大家已经开始来做这样一个处理了"},{"start":2432.173,"end":2456.742,"text":"我們20年確定是1億後年以後還有連續4年的申請所以你們開始啟動這個部分我只是告訴主委這個部分來說全世界都已經走在趨勢的路上面了你看COVID-28還有25個國家是屬於2050年要實現和能增加三倍的宣言還有有很多國家跟進而且要達到2050年淨零排碳的目標"},{"start":2458.323,"end":2480.466,"text":"所以各国目前为止你看看我所调列的都是在积极SMR但是呢而且我们根据我们IAEA就是原子能总数的这个统计到2024年底全国全球的有20个国家是投入这个SMR的一个开发所以目前来说的话我们是不是脚步跟国家比起来是慢了一些"},{"start":2481.991,"end":2497.737,"text":"这方面我们当然会加快对啊你速度已经很慢了而且很多国家都是透过公私协力的方法来做主导所以未来我们有可能寻求美日等国家的一个协助大家共同来做这个开发然后加速它的时程吗"},{"start":2499.022,"end":2522.334,"text":"我们跟美国和日本的沿路非常密切我们也派人到美国的国家实验室参观他们的研究成果所以你应该知道美国制定新的一个框架它会简化声势的时程而且日本选择的是一个比较传统的方法所以未来我们将采取什么样的方式来做管制我希望你们也更满快做出这样一个研议"},{"start":2522.714,"end":2550.043,"text":"到底是美国的方式快一点还是日本的传统的方法而且我觉得最重要的是目前为止呢我们有规划要派人到欧美去做一些学习吧这点没有错吧是的但是你要知道我们核能的政策已经费了这么久的时间所有的核工的人才台湾已经很困难了连清大核工都已经改名你们当初所念的科系都已经名字不知道换到哪里去了所以说呢你们目前为止来说而且台电还传出要测材核发处"},{"start":2550.663,"end":2566.442,"text":"后来呢这整个工程虽然有做了一些的内容的一个调整但是合共的人才没有办法在台湾存留这是一个既定的事实你认为我们的人才有办法赶上未来整个核能全世界的趋势吗你认为以目前的人才的留置来说有机会吗"},{"start":2567.984,"end":2590.265,"text":"我觉得是在人为了我们就努力的话当然会会会改善我们和和安会也规划国家成成绩的原则研究你们要加快速度已经荒废非常多次的当初引以为傲的这些目前就是整个的核能的政策的错误你现在要重新再建制另外一批人才我只能说速度加快因为这是未来的一个趋势对"},{"start":2590.945,"end":2607.913,"text":"還有呢我還是要特別台電擺爛的中期暫時儲存的一個設施你們真的一點辦法都沒有嗎你們是他的盒管機關呢你看從過去到現在你們都說要持續要求台電研議中期暫時儲放的一個設施然後要提出具體的規劃的內容來提供給我們非核家園推動的小組來討論有嗎台電有提出來嗎有任何積極的做法嗎你們設施跟他打了行政訴訟還被法院給否決"},{"start":2619.699,"end":2625.642,"text":"你們是一個監管的機構結果呢現在連這一點權力都沒有難怪台電根本不鳥你們嘛不是嗎跟委員報告齁我們在今年的4月12號其實有新聞給那個飛蛾行政院飛蛾小組請他們積極的積極然後你能怎麼辦"},{"start":2641.164,"end":2654.276,"text":"你看行政訴訟訴訟中撤銷裁罰撤銷裁罰你們要求結果這本來就是在法規上面是你們有掌握這樣子一個所謂的權利結果呢2017年應該通過要求台電2025年2月12起"},{"start":2658.32,"end":2680.681,"text":"启动这个储存设施的部分然后呢2029年要完成这个核废料的一个迁移这都是明文写在那个地方结果呢你们现在只能开发开发结果还被撤销那我所以说我只要请问一下何安慧对于这样的一个所谓的这个储存厂的一个一个设置或者储存厂的迁移你们到底能够发挥什么样的功用"},{"start":2681.707,"end":2694.659,"text":"你們現有的職權可以發揮什麼樣的功用所以只能書面糾正缺失繼續要求改正是這樣子嗎這有任何的執行力嗎這有辦法嗎"},{"start":2696.232,"end":2722.919,"text":"所以说整个能源政策我们就是完全混淆不清到底河岸会先接受到的是一个所谓的再运转的计划还是接到一个除异的计划目前为止你们两个都接收然后一切由上面来然后本来要求你们本来国家的政策里面不管怎么样我们要有一个中期的储存场你们有这样的权责可以要求台电去做台电不做你们就是要求开发开发之后法院认证"},{"start":2723.559,"end":2734.672,"text":"撤裁所以我想請問河岸會的功用到底目前會在哪裡你會不會覺得很無奈主委我真的替你感到很無奈一群專家坐在這個地方國家沒有人要聽你們的專業的建議你不覺得很無奈嗎"},{"start":2737.91,"end":2753.342,"text":"台电已经设有那个核废料专责处理机构他要负责这方面的工作我知道可是在权责上面在法规上你要我念给你听吗在法规上面你们是有需要这样的一个功能的只是他们不选你们而已不是吗"},{"start":2754.588,"end":2783.555,"text":"一个最专业的一个单位里面我们的部分不甩然后呢还告诉我还要另设一个那我们到底在干嘛结床交卧这次到底走到什么地方去啊何阿蔚是不是可以有一个更积极的作为但是我还是强调这不能怪你们我说实在以你们目前所能够掌控的这样子的可以的不管是胡萝卜还是你的棍子都没有办法所以我只能说是不是无奈果然还是很无奈我也很无奈"},{"start":2786.481,"end":2813.662,"text":"謝謝柯智仁委員質詢 核安委主委官員請回座現在請謝龍介委員質詢主席我請主委好有請陳主委"},{"start":2820.234,"end":2833.624,"text":"主委你好 委員好我講和樂圍跟我要緊我才有啦好 我知道因為我們國現在這個婦人電廠婦人電廠已經獨立了這個婦一廠 婦二廠 婦三廠那麼若是新興重啟現在大家都在關注婦三廠"},{"start":2848.971,"end":2861.788,"text":"跟副理事長副理事長已經停下如果申請他在轉押的見解他可以再回覆申請會不會副理事長"},{"start":2867.103,"end":2878.371,"text":"這個部分恐怕要由台電來評估嗎?當然啦,因為內部的技術在內,外部有一些設施,它們可以繼續發電當然是要經過你專門性的安全評估嘛,可以申請的。它的現狀,它們的現狀,可以再提出申請的。"},{"start":2894.82,"end":2918.148,"text":"這個台電最初方面他們有從內部評估他認為可能是缺乏效益所以他們沒有提出申請那我們沒有辦法去台電他可以申請就對了他如果兵國科興他就可以向你申請理論上是可以啦可以啦他們已經說過可以有好業沒好業總比你買一套五科的太陽簾比較好業"},{"start":2924.083,"end":2927.544,"text":"那個說的就是假說的假來的 人家還叫假說的嘛台電是為了要滿足執政者的立場來說一些不應該說的話全民生活這麼困惑全世界的競爭力我們不斷的下滑你看沒電要有AI沒電要有超級的電要有計算力"},{"start":2951.175,"end":2956.857,"text":"沒電是要怎麼發電新的軍工夾對不對沒電要怎麼開車全世界現在有30個國家都有整個貨輪電廠在運轉應該是有400控倍的那麼現在在蓋的新蓋的在建中的大概有差不多90個"},{"start":2982.737,"end":2990.206,"text":"價位中的又超過90億以上 價位要再加上去這是一個世界新的苦勢"},{"start":2992.148,"end":3015.698,"text":"那麼我們中華民國要發電 水力發電跟太陽能發電都相當有困難你看一個太陽能發電 無法這樣七八九全世界的太陽能 平均一多塊半 平均啦後四塊半 後九塊 後七塊半 後一塊半 後兩塊一結局兩塊一 美國一塊八 日本整個兩塊七我們台灣五塊 相對老百姓"},{"start":3023.615,"end":3051.317,"text":"當然這裏面有冠雄高潔 我們會去對折現在是台灣現主席 我知道就斷好了2027以前 羅總統一定要重啟輔營的我太了解他了但是滿足他的虛榮心2025我們達到非核家園啦對公罵有交代啊 夠了啦替台灣人民要想的嘛"},{"start":3053.271,"end":3059.855,"text":"我現在正式跟你請教 婦人事項 台電的 讓你開封開封就對了 安全檢測 你有困難嗎做好安全檢測 你有困難嗎 婦人事項"},{"start":3079.97,"end":3104.679,"text":"跟委員說明核市場的建廠執照在109年的12月31號那已經藉其失效了那如果核市場要重啟當然還是要有台電公司跟經濟部針對整個 我知道啦那技術性的跟技術性的不相關的嘛他如果申請要啟封安全檢測你們有辦法完成嗎"},{"start":3107.375,"end":3134.362,"text":"你不要去跟他說 他現在建造四樓 建造四樓可以給五樓的啊 要給五樓的就五樓啊所以還是要由台電公司跟經濟部做全面性的去盤點到底有哪些事情如果台電 意思就是台電跟經濟部 如果鄉民提出有市場的開封你們有怎麼做好安全的檢測就對了因為沒有安全的檢測就不可能有富齡化電嘛 是不是這樣"},{"start":3135.601,"end":3151.215,"text":"跟委員說明 只要台電公司依法提出申請 那核安委就依法來審查對 一定是依法來審查所以還要看整個盤點的結果啦 因為還是有很多事情 因為你有去護齡室看過嗎 有嘛 主委你有看過嗎 有有有 封起來裡面 水晶晶啊"},{"start":3163.15,"end":3166.332,"text":"夠乾淨 比我們家的客廳乾淨開那麼多錢 把它購收掉了這是我們的寶啊 我們的寶啊就這樣把它綁扎 怕生生的不想把它起床 把它綁扎 真沒人性啊這是可以讓台灣經濟 競爭力 起訴非新 提高競爭力的一個很重要的點"},{"start":3191.226,"end":3199.429,"text":"你們大家都這個婦人的專家看得到會不會感到心疼嗎?就這樣把蛋糕放下 把他餵殺你會不會感到心疼會不會感到心疼?感謝委員關心你會不會感到心疼?會不會難過?感謝委員"},{"start":3220.683,"end":3238.568,"text":"實在說所有世界在拚顧我們的競爭力包括NVIDIA 包括台積電他為什麼要挖他 坦白講就是電電電力就是國力了這是很現實的啊兩法律要怎麼對抗在整個黨要怎麼來競爭在世界的貿易要怎麼來競爭沒有電"},{"start":3250.496,"end":3259.505,"text":"沒力了 不用再說了全世界都集中在這結構為了意識形態造成今天台灣電力的開發你們是一個很年輕的單位"},{"start":3266.335,"end":3277.883,"text":"本身在這裡是希望主委會提出一個宣示性的,我問,副市長你不覺得難過嗎?我關心你,我是一定關心你的,我請問你內心的感覺,你會覺得說,還要到處穿鞋子,讓我把帕恆放在那裡?主委,最好我再問你一遍,你會覺得心裡很難過嗎?"},{"start":3290.875,"end":3309.381,"text":"剛剛說過 感謝委員對本主委的關心所以你看本席的樣子就對了 立場的樣子都很難過啦 很好我已經感謝過委員了 謝謝有感謝過就算認同了 感謝你感謝你對本席這種的看法 這不是我個人啦是我接受了很多鄉親跟我說 我們台灣優秀技術包括企業界"},{"start":3316.855,"end":3333.386,"text":"他說 如果沒有電台灣 我們要怎麼拼命呢我們這裡的製造業 我們這裡的生產業電不斷的企業 人們大陸在花錢不斷的落價 降價身份 我們不斷的提高身份我要用什麼去跟人家競爭呢所以 我會向經濟部 來要求 想盡辦法"},{"start":3347.522,"end":3355.729,"text":"給婦人視窗 拿到完整完備的資料後 向幾位 提出正式的申請 這樣好不好這是委員的意見 好 感謝你的支持 謝謝"},{"start":3376.593,"end":3392.34,"text":"謝謝謝榮介委員質詢那官員請回座現在請萬美玲委員質詢好謝謝主席我們有請陳主委主委請"},{"start":3400.818,"end":3418.343,"text":"主委早我们经济部在11月27号核定了核电厂现况的一个评估报告其中我们看到核一厂因为重要的设备都已经拆除了所以经过评估不再具有运转可行性但是核二核三厂都评估具有"},{"start":3418.843,"end":3440.014,"text":"再運轉的可行性而且要啟動自主安全檢查那麼台電也計劃在明年的3月要提出核二核三廠的再運轉計劃那我們看到鞏明新部長說核三廠最快在2028年的時候就會開始重啟那朱友想請教您行政院或者是經濟部他是有找核安會來討論核電廠再運轉的相關議題嗎"},{"start":3446.061,"end":3469.516,"text":"没有没有喔那如果没有找你们讨论那我们这个龚部长却表示核三厂最快2028年初就可以拿到核安会核发的再运转执照那他这样子的说法这个底气从哪里来这个应该问部长吧那你同意他的这个说法吗我只能这么说了"},{"start":3471.363,"end":3487.735,"text":"國安會當然會依據職責嚴格審查時程上我很難給一個很確定的時程好 所以您這裡其實很難給這個時程但是廣布黨自己就說了2028那當然您是不知情的是這樣講對不對"},{"start":3489.036,"end":3515.22,"text":"当然如果要有很多条件之下是有可能的没关系所以他这样的说法是没有跟你沟通过的好那待会我们来看今年五月的时候卓院长说我们相关的安全检查的一个程序最少需要差不多三年半的时间那但是呢龚部长又说了他说按照国际惯例要去顺利审查的时间是一年到一年半能完成那我想要请教一下主委"},{"start":3515.64,"end":3528.56,"text":"那我想短短的這個半年期間安全檢查的這個時間相差這麼多那兩個人講一個講三年半一個講說一年到一年半那不曉得站在核安會立場來看誰講的才是對的"},{"start":3531.048,"end":3548.523,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告過有影響師生有很多因素包括台電的準備資料台電對我們的問題的回復速度以及我們現場觀測結果過去的保養狀態所以他們兩個講的誰講的是更接近正確的"},{"start":3551.636,"end":3576.472,"text":"我現在還沒有做過評估你還沒有評估那個院長都已經講說三年半然後部長又講一個一年到一年半那你都不去了解一下說他們當中哪一個人講的其實可能有誤那你可能要去就是指點他們一下或提出一下問題點我想這也是您的責任嘛你怎麼可以說他們講的東西你還沒有了解我覺得這樣不好所以是不是可以請主委"},{"start":3576.932,"end":3599.038,"text":"匯後下去以後你去了解看看到底誰講的是對的為什麼這時間差距這麼久這麼大這個差距其實是大的那你看其實如果按照啊按照經濟部的一個說法如果明年最快明年3月台電就會送了再運轉計畫給核安會來審查 審核那主要想請教一下那您剛說了嘛就說這個"},{"start":3599.918,"end":3622.404,"text":"中間的變數跟可能的條件因素非常的多對不對那核安會有沒有去了解到底在國際上我們去做相關審查的程序要注意的事項或者制定的相關流程這個核安會都有去了解嗎有 我有請高署長對他們沒有關係有去了解嗎是不是有那我順便能不能補充一下剛才委員所提到一年半這件事情"},{"start":3623.018,"end":3630.286,"text":"那按照經濟部所講的是台電公司自行自主安全檢查所需要的時間大概一年半到兩年"},{"start":3630.785,"end":3658.831,"text":"那之後還要送到核安委來進行審查跟現場確認那這部分的時間我想您是幫他補充說明啦他自己並沒有講那麼詳細啦他講的就是按照國際慣例順利審查時就是一年到一年半所以應該要這樣講啦就是說您看到不管院長或部長他們的說法有未盡之處或者錯誤之處其實應該要提出提點好不好以上我就是跟你做一個提醒喔好再來我們再來看到"},{"start":3660.811,"end":3680.132,"text":"核二厂我想据了解核二厂这个室外干室储存预计明年第一季就能够完成而且也已经在今年9月26号向核安会提出试运转的一个计划我想请教一下主委目前核二厂的室外干室储存设施运转计划的审查进度可不可以简单说明一下"},{"start":3681.82,"end":3709.725,"text":"有沒有預計什麼時候會審查完畢報告委員如果台電公司能夠順利就是對我們的議題做理性的話我們有望在今年的明年的2月能夠完成這個試運轉計畫的審查好就是說你預估是在明年2月但台電如果他的速度更快一點可能也會往前提意思是說看台電他送上來的這個過程是嗎我們有一百多項的意見給台電公司所以台電公司我了解我了解好那我認為啦"},{"start":3710.365,"end":3729.31,"text":"其实不管是核二或是核三场的重启其实我想都会有部分的民众他是有疑虑的所以核安会其实你作为一个审查的主管机关我认为也要去跟我们的民众说明相关的进度这个安全性等等所以这些跟民众的沟通相关的计划我们有没有在做"},{"start":3731.796,"end":3759.45,"text":"有沒有在做跟委員說明只要台電公司提出申請的時候會裡面會按照以往的做法會辦地方說明會好啦所以其實你們跟台電橫向的這個往來其實也要更細緻更平凡一點好那我再請教一下那我們看到環境部這個彭啟明部長昨天在受訪的時候也說依照現行的法規核電廠再運轉不需要環評但環境部站在督促的角色他會確保"},{"start":3760.57,"end":3771.028,"text":"審查納入環境相關的考量我想請教一下主委我們環境部是二級機關核安會是三級獨立機關但彭部長說他要督促核安會您認為恰當嗎"},{"start":3772.817,"end":3797.442,"text":"我覺得他意見我們是覺得沒什麼問題所以可以接受他的督促我們平常就有密切溝通溝通跟接受他的督促層級上是不太一樣的我想跟主委講一下其實您應該也知道所以到目前為止我請教一下環境部有沒有針對核電廠重啟找核安會來討論你們討論過嗎"},{"start":3801.215,"end":3829.082,"text":"没有正式的讨论那有私下聊天不过我们会议跟环境部是有来往好然后我想请你给我补充一下核安会是核能对于针对没关系那个主委不用了我想再请教一下如果彭牧长他希望核安会在审查核电厂再运转计划的时候纳入环平的考量主委认为有没有这个必要"},{"start":3830.339,"end":3844.988,"text":"實際上已經納入了服務社對環境的影響評估本身就是核安會職責核安會這方面會負責全部責任至於其他的因素呢我們會跟"},{"start":3846.588,"end":3871.533,"text":"我认为啦我想核安会它是一个独立的机关我们跟其他的相关的部会假设有任何有关联的议题我们多往来多研究是好的但是因为我们是独立的机关我想主委这个要确保我们不要受到其他的干扰好再来呢要跟你请教一个题目这个我请一下主席我请一下那个国务院院的高子牧院长有在现场好时间关系我就直接发问好"},{"start":3872.798,"end":3896.754,"text":"我們看到去年底多達2.4萬公升的柴油流入石門大峻農灌系統導致周邊1.2萬平方公尺土地被匡列為污染控制場址我想請教一下院長2.4萬公升的柴油流入周遭的土壤跟農灌的系統這等於一輛滿載的油罐車的油"},{"start":3898.075,"end":3909.515,"text":"如此龐大的油量整車漏光光國園院卻是等到環保局通知才發現院長我想請教一下國園院這樣的後知後覺監控上出了什麼問題"},{"start":3912.854,"end":3941.342,"text":"報告委員我們在去年年底12月29號就有嚴密的配合環保局的調查那在1月2號我就親自沒有 總是不是你們發現的嘛對不對不是我們發現的是沒錯好油為什麼漏這麼久它因為地下是暗管暗管有街頭鬆脫結果就一直漏漏漏了一整個禮拜院長你對啦你現在你也有跟我一個報告說漏油的原因是輸油管連接的法件鬆脫嘛是是"},{"start":3944.584,"end":3960.78,"text":"館長你這個回答其實我聽了更是心驚膽顫如果就只是一個罰件鬆脫如此嚴重的漏油如此量大的漏油那麼在本席看來這鬆脫了不只是罰件而已這可能是有人員的訓練管理"},{"start":3961.34,"end":3988.252,"text":"相關的鬆脫才嚴重所以經過這件事之後本心想要問一下國研院針對有污染風險設備操作的教育訓練跟SOP的流程等等有提出了什麼樣嚴格的規範了嗎報告委員我們在這事故以後針對一公平以上的油槽通通要有液位偵視器還有錄影機監控它的液位在它漏油的第一時間液位正常24小時有同人值班"},{"start":3988.972,"end":4017.475,"text":"去觀察大概有12口這樣的油槽就只要監測到有異常優惠就要回報不會讓它漏了一個禮拜有SOP了以後落實是很重要最後這個事件桃園市環保局開罰了這個84萬對不對但是國務院院針對被污染的土壤及水源還要進行相關的整治跟復原的工作那請問院長你有沒有去計算這次漏油事件整個國務院院要花了多少錢"},{"start":4018.395,"end":4034.871,"text":"報告委員今年預計會花五千七百萬那明年大概兩千一百萬最近的兩年那等整治有確定的成果你想想看我覺得真的很離譜耶將近八千萬的這個預算經費你這是全民買單你的錯誤耶"},{"start":4036.929,"end":4050.796,"text":"這算不算全民買單你的錯誤是 所以我們在事件發生了以後有懲處相關的化工組組長化工組的所長化工所所長跟護所長因為都是檢認被懲處以後我們報到監察院監察院有發函來調查過兩次"},{"start":4054.378,"end":4071.733,"text":"我覺得一個結論啊你知道嗎你們的一個人為書師啊我覺得8000萬夠不夠我都還不知道全民買單這樣的預算是一個嚴重重大的浪費那第二個呢相關的土壤可能有污染水源可能有的污染我覺得你都沒有辦法做百分之百保證我覺得這一連串"},{"start":4073.374,"end":4098.048,"text":"這不是一個小小的說是疏失改善SOP就能做的事情我覺得針對這一件事情啊我希望這個院長會後啊給本席辦公室啊一個仔仔細細的報告包括事件發生的原因現在SOP還有未來你怎麼去落實SOP還有你的懲處還有未來這個預算上面你花到哪裡去了給我整套的計畫可以嗎可以多久的時間兩個禮拜以內"},{"start":4101.663,"end":4129.466,"text":"兩個禮拜以內是好那就10天可以嗎好好謝謝好謝謝萬美玲委員質詢那官員請回座現在請葛如君委員質詢好謝謝主席有請陳明臻主委"},{"start":4131.325,"end":4132.113,"text":"好 請出位"},{"start":4139.949,"end":4168.208,"text":"主委好隨著經濟部在兩個禮拜前核定台電的核電廠現況評估報告大家都非常關心核電何時重啟的情況畢竟這個揮打要落腳台灣還有非常多的工廠正在建設我們的供電到底能不能滿足AI的爆發大家都很擔憂也很關注根據修正後的運轉執照申請審核辦法要重啟要滿足三個條件我想您應該是在清楚不過的"},{"start":4169.108,"end":4175.696,"text":"第一個是台電要提交相關的自主安全檢查的報告16-1條台電要提交再運轉計畫書再來16-2條河岸會審核通過再做再運轉執行結果報告現在台電對外是講說明年3月會先提交再運轉計畫書給河岸會審查"},{"start":4189.662,"end":4202.151,"text":"而自主安檢呢台電目前是說有些部分要請延長協助預計在2027年的年中來完成然而在這個自主安檢的過程當中台電"},{"start":4203.496,"end":4229.543,"text":"或者有心人士會不會有一些要上下其手的地方呢比如說請原廠多次來評估比如說可以一次完成就分成多次完成能來一次做的變成來N次做或者控制交報告的品質報告該寫的地方沒寫不用寫的地方寫一大堆到時候時程延宕又開始踢皮球"},{"start":4230.403,"end":4258.085,"text":"說核安會沒有跟我們說要寫這個請問一下主委這個部分核安會有沒有辦法去監督這個時程跟報告的內容一次搞定而且越快越好有沒有辦法監督核安會已經跟台電做過溝通了我們要求什麼有什麼標準都已經跟台電有做過溝通這方面請組長再補充一下"},{"start":4259.532,"end":4274.904,"text":"跟委員說明這兩份要提交的報告會裡面跟台電公司都有溝通那我會裡面也參考國外的經驗擬定的審查導則所以相關的技術細節跟審查的要項在裡面都有說明非常好請問這個會議相關的這個所謂審查導則有公開嗎"},{"start":4278.863,"end":4293.481,"text":"有在官網嗎對會議記錄會後提供給我本席好嗎所以應該不會讓他們說一年半後一次交結果又不足吧是分次交還是一次交你們這個倒折是怎麼弄的這個倒折是整體性在看"},{"start":4294.102,"end":4315.152,"text":"那當然台電公司在法裡面我現在問細節突然你又要繞出去你說有倒折倒折是一年半之後交一次交還是分次交倒折不會去規範台電公司什麼時候交那交的內容是針對內容技術細節的部分那他一年半以後會不會來跟你講說做不完"},{"start":4319.041,"end":4345.587,"text":"這個可能就涉及到台電公司的整個管理部分所以真的是 主委我們這真的是提醒不要到時候幫有心人士背鍋不要到時候供電不足相關單位又把責任推給核安會你當時沒有叫我們要分次交我一次做結果老外過不來內容這個時間不夠那你為什麼有沒有辦法分次進行"},{"start":4346.587,"end":4374.488,"text":"這個是不是應該和安會要多做一點事情畢竟經濟部這個工部長講說台電最快2027年中完成置評報告注意一下喔他講的喔決策在和安會這決策不是只是最後把關啦如果你最後把關你只是說要交喔要交這些這些喔過程當中沒有任何的督促監督的機制"},{"start":4375.837,"end":4399.379,"text":"會不會很危險啊這一點希望主委在這裡可不可以把全責講清楚我們看幫你們講了看了這個第16之1條最後一段有提到前條規定文件經營者得是需要注意喔向主管機關申請分階段提送可不可以分階段可以的可以嘛那你們島澤有沒有說分階段"},{"start":4403.288,"end":4422.64,"text":"我們就這樣全民在這裡 河安會在這裡你要交這個一年半剛剛也有委員 萬委員也提了有人說兩三年如果他說一年半他說做不到 兩年再交可不可以你可以說不可以嗎"},{"start":4425.7,"end":4448.508,"text":"這時間我們會和台電會密切的溝通是 所以相關會議紀錄要公開 要透明之外 我們幫你法條查好了經營者得市需要 得市什麼需要得市國民與國家的經濟發展的需要向主管機關申請分階段提送分階段有沒有可能有沒有可能 主委"},{"start":4449.557,"end":4464.014,"text":"是可以的可以的嘛所以希望這個主委這邊能不能建議一下台電繳交各項評估報告的時間也提供給他們建議在倒折裡面並在收到相關的報告收一份"},{"start":4465.031,"end":4482.958,"text":"公告一份收一份公告一份我講的是公告內容跟缺失啦要透明我們不能這樣全民在這裡叭叭的等哇 一年半後他突然舉手啊 抱歉 我做不出來那何安慧妳也不能在這裡叭叭的等嘛同意吧同意嗎"},{"start":4483.786,"end":4509.998,"text":"主委我們會跟台電密切的溝通好 謝謝勇於認識不然台電到時候一次塞給你到時候又萬一真的有什麼理由正當理由我們可以理解可是你們認為理想的佼佼的程序分階段這個我覺得要讓他們知道否則到時候我是想要講說說核電重啟時程可能會影響到特定"},{"start":4512.246,"end":4525.237,"text":"業者的利益啦不是我講的啦不是我講的啦蔡英文前總統講啦光電有弊案我們的能源一直不足夠零碳一直不夠"},{"start":4526.581,"end":4541.348,"text":"那就可能有弊案越漫長的重啟時間可能會越有人得利同時前也一直在提醒說我們要合律共存這個裡面我想相關的訊息"},{"start":4542.629,"end":4569.557,"text":"我就不仔細解釋大家細細品味也應該都懂啦所以我們為什麼我們今天要來督促河岸會也謝謝主委勇於認識啦我們不要捲入這樣的一些權利利益的漩渦那剛剛所以我想這個您勇於認識但是整個我們的結構啊也應該機關的結構也應該要幫忙您啦我也幫您關心了就是說"},{"start":4570.905,"end":4591.452,"text":"原人會在兩年前被降為三級機關現在就是河岸會當初說得很好聽說是配合行政院組織調整但是有一些人看出來覺得說這是不是配合家園變成叫不動部變成叫不動委員會你可能叫不動經濟部可能也叫不動台電"},{"start":4592.532,"end":4618.234,"text":"那如今我們這個時勢在變了賴總統都函出了不排除任何有助於淨零能源的方案包括這是他的原話未來新的先進的核能那顯見整個時代都往前推那我就要請教主委您勇於認識我給予肯定但是現在三級機關核安會有沒有辦法去要求二級的經濟部"},{"start":4619.735,"end":4643.022,"text":"那台電又是屬於經濟部這個直屬的那三級機關要如何去協調二級機關如果未來牽涉到安全的事情在機關的架構之下變成經濟利益優先台電利益優先那安全利益呢所以這一點會不會有監督不對等的問題主委您覺得繼續保持這樣的關係合適嗎"},{"start":4649.625,"end":4673.55,"text":"目前我們是監守崗位做好核能安全管制工作如果未來核電廠重啟要調整機關的位階的話那確實對國際交流人才培育跨部會整合是有幫助的太好了謝謝主委直接完整的唸出同仁幫你準備好的這個說法我們非常認同為什麼"},{"start":4675.812,"end":4703.101,"text":"兩年前改編制的時候原能會的蔡前主委就懷疑在面對他當年高瞻遠瞩說面對未來小型核電廠SMR跟核融合的發展降級後能否因應國際趨勢有可能會遇到挑戰尤其如果核電要重啟核安會的工作會越來越重所以我想總是政府不能總要馬而跑又不讓馬吃草這個不能讓經濟利益"},{"start":4705.382,"end":4732.007,"text":"特定團體利益或公司的利益優於安全的這個考量所以我想這個您身為核能大家長有這樣的見地我們予以認同我們也在此也希望能夠向卓院長表達相關機關的架構的調整可能勢在必行那提到最後幾個點提到SMR本席有拜讀過國務院明年的SMR計畫書"},{"start":4733.207,"end":4756.08,"text":"有這樣的東西非常好 予以肯定那裡面列舉了SMR的數項優勢哇 太棒了 非常清楚有我們的能源韌性與安全的概念在裡面電力調度的彈性國安層面還有產業需求的方面淨零台碳的方面都是優上加優啊那對於這樣這麼適合台灣的SMR院長"},{"start":4760.103,"end":4784.941,"text":"你知不知道我們國家編多少錢的經費啊我很感謝你寫的這麼好嘛對啊 那多少錢啊我們明年編的一億有拿到SMR計畫一億元我們一個特別條例1.25兆就要出去了沒有電能抗中保台嗎沒有電能保家衛國嗎"},{"start":4788.376,"end":4806.13,"text":"這個問題很簡單可以還是不可以不可以所以能源很重要我在這裡跟各位站在同一線這個東西加上後年要實施的中長期計劃才10億一年平均大概2.5我們已經幫忙整理了各國的狀態美國是100倍"},{"start":4810.638,"end":4816.141,"text":"1000億台幣是1000倍啊法國政府362倍韓國呢2.16億美元67倍請問主委主席不好意思 再接一點請問主委您認為這樣SMR的量能夠嗎1億台幣啊目前只是起步而已以後應該會增加"},{"start":4836.741,"end":4854.68,"text":"那明年有沒有機會十億後年有沒有機會百億我們現在看到到119年才十億啊你說要增加快一點吧明年有沒有機會上看十倍十倍就好美國現在是一千倍可以考慮吧可以考慮吧可以討論吧"},{"start":4856.998,"end":4881.665,"text":"這個是可以討論的不過我們要做到能夠執行為什麼本席在這裡要提醒大家要看懂上位者的看法賴總統已經親自表達了我幫他說不排除未來新的先進核能的技術卓院長說對新核能要主動對話研究及合作卓院長的說法"},{"start":4882.657,"end":4896.618,"text":"如果他們都講了你們沒有排進去你難道要總統 院長打電話給國務院院 給主委這樣不夠啦要這樣嗎主委不用吧不用吧"},{"start":4897.789,"end":4922.284,"text":"謝謝委員他已經講了他們很急啊他們現在在院長辦公室在總統在總統府很緊張啊到119年10億台幣你叫他怎麼兌現心何能願景嘛好不好所以這一點我在這裡幫忙讓你們感受一下那最後這個未來人才我們看一下這個委託的學校啦"},{"start":4923.044,"end":4942.394,"text":"我們也很擔憂啦國安院這邊我們很肯定你們對SMR的展開但是人才你們在報告裡面主席我在最後20秒報告最後一頁報告最後一頁我朗讀一下河安會未來將全力推動流財 育財 攬財等措施"},{"start":4945.336,"end":4963.261,"text":"我們應該要召集千人回台啊和安你們都是子弟滿天下的啊結果我們發現啦人才計畫的速度太慢了金額太低啦我們馬上應該要全面要追趕了好不好這一點我們是不是"},{"start":4964.571,"end":4989.089,"text":"多做一點 權力攬財 留財育財要有錢 要有人 相關的編列可不可以有更務實的做法會後提供一些相關的報告給我們 可以嗎好 可以的 謝謝需要多久給我兩星期好不好好 兩星期 好不好 謝謝感謝謝謝主委 謝謝謝謝院長 謝謝主席好 謝謝葛如軍委員質詢那行政官員請回座喝口水 要不要喝口水"},{"start":4998.018,"end":5019.225,"text":"好 現在請陳秀寶委員質詢謝主席 請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":5028.618,"end":5048.664,"text":"主委好主委新聞有報導有清大的教授表示說核電廠用過的燃料棒95%都能夠回收成為新燃料這位教授指出現有的核電廠退下來的燃料棒其實是用了裡面5%的這個鈾燃料"},{"start":5050.424,"end":5064.751,"text":"其他的95%都沒有用到而第四代的反應器特別是快中子反應器可以把剩下的這95%繼續使用所以還有90%可以拿來作為第四代核反應器的燃料然後來發電"},{"start":5065.911,"end":5081.012,"text":"他甚至指出說中國已經有一台第四代反應爐在運轉那美國的技術大概十年內可以商轉我想請教主委主委您本人跟或者是我們核安衛的同仁對於這個說法有沒有了解"},{"start":5083.588,"end":5099.141,"text":"这个是以前旧有的观念本来现在核电厂使用过的只使用掉一小部分而已大部分将来还是在处理之后还继续使用的"},{"start":5100.842,"end":5128.056,"text":"所以对这个教授所指出的我们的燃料棒使用的只是里面一小部分剩下的部分其实还可以再拿来使用的他这个说法主委您也觉得是这样子吗是正确的日本就这样做他说这个教授指出中国已经有一台第四代反应炉在运转那美国的技术在十年内是可以商转的您觉得说以现在的技术这是可行的吗或者说这个说法是可信的吗"},{"start":5130.072,"end":5151.967,"text":"這個在理論上是可行的好那我這邊也是要一直要強調說我們核安會應該跟得上要必須跟上國際的這個核能的趨勢希望說核安會我們要掌握最新的狀況了解最新的技術這樣才能在關於其他國家有核能的消息出來的時候我們可以在第一時間有"},{"start":5152.788,"end":5178.657,"text":"正確有效的這個立場來說明給民眾了解 解除他們的疑慮所以 縱觀我們剛才的循跟打主委是說95%的這個沒有使用到的這些燃料可以再次來回收使用那麼第四代反應爐用這樣的回收的燃料棒來使用是可行的技術是嗎"},{"start":5179.577,"end":5204.129,"text":"是的 理智上可行的謝謝主委我想請教主委烏俄戰爭已經持續很多年那位於烏克蘭東南部的這個扎波羅勒核電廠也一再的被國際的原子能總署示警恐怕存在安全疑慮那扎波羅勒核電廠目前是沒有在運動本身的電廠反應爐是沒有在運轉的"},{"start":5204.929,"end":5231.983,"text":"但是他們會需要電力系統來維持這個冷卻跟安全的系統以防止這個反應爐發生融毀的這個現象進而引發核子事故那這幾個月呢陸續有傳出這個紮波羅勒核電廠受到戰爭的影響會有斷電的情形例如他們的那個柴油發電機的電線就被人為破壞那相關的這個電力系統出了問題那如果"},{"start":5232.523,"end":5250.837,"text":"这个断电的情形一直持续,这个扎波罗勒核电厂有可能发生核子事故这个时间,就是如果它断电多久可能会引发核子事故?要计算才知道,不过断电久确实会引起核发事故。"},{"start":5251.448,"end":5275.305,"text":"因為它雖然電場反應爐是沒有運作的它這個冷卻系統還是一直必須要持續的在維持它這個安全那如果它真的因為戰爭的影響很不幸的在這個電力中斷的時間過長真的造成這個反應爐有問題也發生了核安事件的時候會不會影響到我們台灣民眾的安全"},{"start":5279.252,"end":5291.857,"text":"距離是蠻遠的像上次車諾比事件的話台灣也隔好久才偵測到直接影響到歐洲地區會比較 馬上會有影響因為台灣跟這個核電廠的距離讓我們會有一些緩衝跟比較可以自保的一些措施盡快來做"},{"start":5301.701,"end":5326.053,"text":"那核安會你們有沒有建立緊急的應變措施因為戰爭真的是我們無可去預料它什麼時候會發生怎樣的事情如果真的不幸有這個電廠發生的核子事故那對於核電廠附近周邊會影響到的這些區域的範圍有進口到我們台灣的商品我們會不會有機制馬上進行管制"},{"start":5326.813,"end":5343.093,"text":"台電已經訂了面應軍事威脅下確保核安整備與應變計畫及相關程序書並透過年度的核安演習來訓練精進已經有了 我們已經做好準備我的意思是說雖然這個紮波羅勒核電廠離我們很遠"},{"start":5346.897,"end":5372.88,"text":"萬一發生了河岸事故不會立即的危害到台灣民眾的健康但是在他那周邊周圍的一些相關的商品如果我們台灣是有進口的他可能是會有這個輻射感染疑慮的我們會不會有這樣的機制這樣子的對應變的措施對周邊的這些商品進行管制有這樣的機制嗎食藥署應對這方面會有邊境的管制"},{"start":5373.12,"end":5399.446,"text":"我们有这样的建议给他们吗已经有这个制度建立了因为河安会你们是管理就是对于这个部分你们是专业所以有需要有这样的机制来启动的时候即便他的职责职权可能是在食药署但是河安会你们这边是有你们的义务跟你们的责任是要告知跟启动这样的机制吧请组长回答一下"},{"start":5401.61,"end":5416.927,"text":"就是我們會如同那個過去處理福島河事故的一個經驗那第一個時間因為他們的一個空服污染可能會造成人員就是我們國人在歐洲可能會有一些污染或者是物品的污染我們會在機場成立那個門框偵檢器"},{"start":5420.271,"end":5439.54,"text":"然後來協助一些污染的清除那至於像是一些食品或者是物品的那就是我們就是跨部會的一個合作就像食藥署過去也曾經針對日本進口食品一直來進行那個邊境的一個管制那我們這邊會提供相關的偵檢的技術服務"},{"start":5442.902,"end":5470.409,"text":"您是组长吗是 谢谢组长您也预先回答了我下一个要问的问题那我再重复一下我刚才问的当然您也回答了就因为核安会你们是专业的你们对于这个核能安全核子安全这个部分的管制跟研究你们是专业的所以在其他部门虽然职责可能是在食药署或在其他位环或是其他的部门但是你们有这样的专业你们必须要去启动这样接着去以你们专业来"},{"start":5471.989,"end":5475.675,"text":"告知來通知來啟動這樣的機制是由你們來啟動吧"},{"start":5479.04,"end":5502.769,"text":"是嗎 報告委員我們這部分不會說是我們啟動但是我們就是會跨部會的一個溝通協調像我們會提供一些技術那剛才組長您也說了包括我們在那附近的我們的台灣的國人如果有旅居他是在念書或者其他商務的需求或是在當地的我們的國人我們也會有其他的一些機制來啟動保護他們"},{"start":5504.45,"end":5533.089,"text":"這個我們都會及時的跟我們外交相關的人員來一起就是關心我們國人的健康這個是你們職責吧但是這也是你們的專業所以我會希望說就是因為現在有戰爭在發生中所以說對這個核電廠相關的安全的疑慮如果我們能夠做得更周全希望給我們民眾一個有比較有保障的就是說我們其實是隨時在關注相關的情況"},{"start":5534.27,"end":5562.319,"text":"那我再請教一下關於核電的議題討論度現在很高的就是關於核二核三會不會重啟的問題那台電是預計明年3月會送核安會來審議在討論重啟之前本期這邊有關於核廢料存放的問題要先請教核安會核二廠跟核三廠都有規劃興建室內乾儲場那目前也在招標中而且其中核二廠已經招標第三次請問這是什麼原因"},{"start":5563.796,"end":5568.663,"text":"跟委員報告核二廠的部分室內乾除已經在前天結標"},{"start":5570.437,"end":5592.381,"text":"所以這次有順利的有順利的標出去了那河山廠的部分因為他第一次的招標不足三家沒有辦法達到那個工程會的要求所以他會再開二標第二次招標就對了那好 既然河二廠已經完成了這個招標的程序那請問預計什麼時候會這個騎乘你們訂出來了嗎什麼時候完工這個"},{"start":5598.533,"end":5615.534,"text":"掌握在原能會的部分我們建造製造大概會省一年半這個一二廠我們都有經驗那試運轉計畫省四個月運轉製造省四個月這個是我們核安會可以掌握的那其他工程部分那就要台東公司自己來掌握"},{"start":5616.66,"end":5633.443,"text":"所以你們是在關於這個審核的部分是你們那其他的這個部分你們跟相關的單位我希望說你們給我一份你們的期程你們到時候送一份資料到我辦公室來那我還是要強調其實核廢料還有"},{"start":5634.063,"end":5661.895,"text":"後續的中期處置跟最終處置的問題如果我們沒有辦法妥善的處理核廢料的問題我們要貿然的使用核電這真的是非常的危險尤其是中期的處置廠跟最終處置廠這個選址問題一直都沒有辦法解決也沒有辦法取得共識所以我希望說未來我們在核安會在審查核二及核三再運轉計畫的時候必須將核廢料的處置問題納入考量"},{"start":5662.728,"end":5687.684,"text":"我們會要求台電公司來進促其實核電運轉最重要最大必須面對的問題就是核廢料的儲值所以這個部分我希望說未來我們關於這個部分核二核三的再運轉計畫這個部分你們一定要很審慎那關於我剛剛提到的就是這個乾式儲存廠的這個相關啟程你再送一份資料到我辦公室是好 以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝陳秀寶委員請光雲回座"},{"start":5694.821,"end":5710.391,"text":"要不要喝口水好那現在請吳佩奕委員質詢好謝謝主席我請何安慧主委請陳主委"},{"start":5718.755,"end":5745.509,"text":"主委好主委我想核能安全是國人大家都非常重視的那因為今天我要請教幾個比較具體的計畫所以等會如果是直接是業務單位相關的也就請同仁直接來回答我們這個在時間之內希望可以來充分討論關核安會我們長期有在蒐集國際上面的核安重要的資訊也持續的跟國際組織國際原子能總署保持聯繫"},{"start":5746.71,"end":5775.052,"text":"那今年二月的時候發生一件事情也就是車諾比的核電廠遭受到無人機的攻擊造成什麼問題呢他們的防止輻射外洩的新安全為主體受到損傷那上個月呢國際原子能總署還有一個追蹤的報導我先請教一下這一個核電廠他的新安全為主體受到損害會造成什麼嚴重的影響"},{"start":5778.111,"end":5782.047,"text":"一開始的話目前還沒有真正到有嚴重影響"},{"start":5783.069,"end":5800.297,"text":"但是如果持續下去的話是有可能造成環境的威脅什麼樣的威脅呢因為他們現在趕快在修復了嘛所以這個新安全為主體它是什麼樣的功能為什麼要做這個東西防止輻射外洩對安全當然很重要尤其這一個核電廠"},{"start":5809.256,"end":5835.546,"text":"當年輻射外洩的時候1986年我甚至還沒出生但是到今天 直到今天為止我們都還要為了這個防止核輻射外洩的事情要做很多的準備因為它這個傷害是無可回復的所以呢我就要請這個何安慧來去了解因為它12月5號的時候我看國際原子能總署還發布了一個新聞稿"},{"start":5836.326,"end":5859.078,"text":"那就是說這個車諾比核電廠遭受的無人機襲擊烏克蘭方面已經指出說這個就是俄羅斯對他們發動的戰爭的攻擊把他這個新安全為主體整個破壞掉破壞了一部分那他本來是可以密閉的嘛現在沒有辦法密閉就如同畫面所示你們有沒有跟國際員警能從屬來了解這個最新的狀況呢"},{"start":5862.186,"end":5887.042,"text":"國際上面的核安資訊跟委員報告我們都有持續掌握國際原子能總署跟其他國際資訊有沒有什麼樣的資訊可以跟我們分享像委員有提到新實慣就是新安全為主體的受損目前IEA的最新的檢視是顯示它的密封性確實像委員所說的是有結構上是有受到破損"},{"start":5887.722,"end":5904.305,"text":"然後不過它的在整個承載的部分以及它裡面輻射監測的部分是沒有問題的所以現在正在進行緊急的修復現在就是趕快緊急修復對所以我想這個案例其實是提醒我們也叮嚀我們在戰爭的極端情境下"},{"start":5905.526,"end":5932.406,"text":"這個核安他可能會提高他的威脅程度那核電廠當然也就是台灣的防衛韌性防災韌性很重要的一部分因為我也是立法院全民防衛這個連線的會長那總統府也推動了全身衛防衛韌性委員會我們各個部會現在都在投入來去做事先的評估有準備最重要有準備才安全所以包括了權動署包括了內政部"},{"start":5933.166,"end":5959.579,"text":"存動署出了一本台灣安全指引小局書內政部最近開始要全台灣進到社區來向民眾說明當災難發生時候我們應該要怎麼準備我們事實上要準備什麼物資我們應該要怎麼樣來疏散我們可以怎麼樣來自救以及助人那所以呢我想要請問我們核安會針對我們核電廠倘若在戰爭當中受到攻擊我們有沒有相關的緊急應變計畫"},{"start":5962.897,"end":5984.272,"text":"報告委員目前電廠都已經訂了面臨軍事威脅下確保河岸的準備跟應變計畫那也有相關的一個程序書所以電廠也透過每年的年度河岸演習跟場內的演習去做一個演練檢視每年我們都有演習嘛因為它不只是場區內因為一般最可能會發生的後果兩個一個大規模爆炸另外可能是場區內大範圍的火災"},{"start":5987.094,"end":6005.238,"text":"所以他可能要協同的就包括了我們兵警力你可能有消防醫護這通通都要投入能不能請教一下按照我們現在你們緊急計劃都有訂定對不對倘若是場區發生大範圍的火災我們第一步要做什麼民眾第一步要做什麼我住在旁邊而已我第一步要做什麼"},{"start":6005.871,"end":6032.268,"text":"民眾的部分嗎對 他可以向誰來請教資訊還是上你們的網站上面有資訊公告嗎我們的網站上都會有相關的資訊公告網站有資訊公告那他在現場 倘若他事前沒有看過你們這個網站因為除了我以外我想我們立法院也沒幾個人看過那真的要很關心你們核安會才會去看這個他在現場事前沒看過聽到這個發布警報他第一時間應該做什麼事情"},{"start":6032.871,"end":6051.119,"text":"如果是發布警報那就表示就是有核子事故的疑慮我們就會請民眾先進入室內也就是像剛剛委員有提到的就是政府有發布的那個小局書裡面我們就有就是宣導如果遇到核子事故要聽看聽誰會去請民眾要進到室內誰會在現場協助疏散"},{"start":6054.46,"end":6074.794,"text":"在我們就是警報發布的時候就會請民眾要進到那個現場去做誰會做這件事呢現場誰會去請民眾要進到室內應該不會是你們啦你們在很遠的地方我們有核子事故監測中心到時候監測中心成立的時候會在就是現場緊急應變器那些單位要進駐到這個事故中心"},{"start":6075.354,"end":6103.356,"text":"包括核安會跟我們所屬的輻射偵測中心然後以及台電公司的放射試驗室還有其他的相關像內政部我們核安會由誰來進駐誰是現場的第一指揮官是我們輻射偵測中心輻射偵測中心的主任那我們會有幾個人力來投入我們的人力部分嗎對 我們核安會自己核安會自己"},{"start":6107.971,"end":6126.583,"text":"這個因為每年都有演練嗎福社建設中心會的成員有包括相關政府機關包括台電然後那個內政部所以我們進駐中心演習的成員一次大概會有三四十位同仁"},{"start":6127.108,"end":6156.691,"text":"三四十位那有關於警力啊醫護啊消防啊這個需要跟地方政府協調的我們是有什麼窗口來進行橫向的聯繫在演習的時候我們會有設置前進協調所是相關部會的長官都會在現場那輻射監測中心如果有任何的需求物資人員或者技術上的協助的時候我們會透過前進協調所來請各部會提供相關的資源"},{"start":6157.071,"end":6185.565,"text":"好非常好因為其實我們每年都有進行演練我也看過你們的資料我們是有計劃也有在準備的我們甚至河岸會也要求台電及各河電廠要去增加戰爭因應措施例如河岸演練但是主委今天我要提醒您因為我們現在在推動的全社會防衛韌性最重要的是除了我們政府有準備以外我們要讓民眾知道萬一發生災害因為災害有很多種可能是天然災害可能是地震"},{"start":6186.405,"end":6201.748,"text":"有可能是核災各種的災害的型態當發生的時候我們要怎麼樣來準備所以呢我認為核安會或者你們來要求這個事業機關其實必須要開始來進行社會的教育"},{"start":6202.509,"end":6220.724,"text":"我們有做相關的準備但是這些資訊必須要公開必須要公開透明讓民眾可以知道萬一發生災害的時候如何來保護自己如何來保護家人如何來保護社區這我想是非常重要的所以能不能在預算審查之前侯安慧給我一個初步的方向可以的好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝委員"},{"start":6228.7,"end":6233.689,"text":"好 謝謝吳蓋義委員 那官員請回座我們現在休息10分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":6274.127,"end":6279.448,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6319.172,"end":6347.535,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":6349.206,"end":6369.969,"text":"現代式的博弈的產品在這些年代遇見的戰爭中,有多加時代的自然反彈,經歷了不少的戰爭,有多加時代的自然反彈,經歷了不少的戰爭,"},{"start":6374.443,"end":6389.561,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":6413.745,"end":6416.066,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6440.11,"end":6450.255,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6456.323,"end":6481.453,"text":"請不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":6486.92,"end":6492.227,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6492.551,"end":6516.742,"text":"然後回到那邊然後這個回到那個回到第五次第五次那個就是回到滿監督的然後旁邊的因為他主管的地方是滿監督的"},{"start":6518.183,"end":6540.93,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6542.888,"end":6543.529,"text":"主席"},{"start":6568.455,"end":6578.458,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6592.556,"end":6604.946,"text":"謝謝大家收看。"},{"start":6625.625,"end":6628.508,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":6631.135,"end":6653.693,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":6659.258,"end":6679.582,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":6690.935,"end":6692.176,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":6702.141,"end":6715.386,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":6729.991,"end":6731.694,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":6745.691,"end":6760.691,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6765.653,"end":6775.016,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6786.34,"end":6807.722,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6833.457,"end":6834.059,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":6969.306,"end":6981.215,"text":"好 現在請林佩翔委員發言林佩翔委員林佩翔委員不在請張雅玲委員質詢"},{"start":6987.113,"end":6991.498,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們邀請主委好 請陳主委"},{"start":7000.526,"end":7028.299,"text":"好 主委我想前幾天11月28號的時候經濟部核定了三座核電廠的現況評估報告認定核二跟核三有再運轉的可行性台電也隨即表示將會進行自主的安全檢查並在2023年3月會先提出一個再運轉計畫並且在2027年將自主安檢報告會送到核安會來審查我想"},{"start":7030.321,"end":7043.675,"text":"接下來這個核安會的角色到底是什麼就變得非常重要我們現在是我想要請主委回答我們核安會是被動的收建單位還是我們是核能安全的把關者"},{"start":7045.051,"end":7059.75,"text":"我們核位值得就是對核電廠的把關工作是最重要的工作所以我們會非常想站在專業上面去做安全的實質審查對嗎是的好的那我想就是說"},{"start":7061.471,"end":7084.923,"text":"當社會聽到這個聚在運轉可行性的時候就會認為你們好像已經在背書了我認為這個對你們的獨立性跟專業性會有非常大的考驗所以我希望你們還是能夠秉持著專業來去做實質的審查因為所有人都生長在這一片土地上面之前我們都一直不停地強調三個共識三個共識還是最重要的原則"},{"start":7086.024,"end":7110.911,"text":"那接下來我也想要跟主委再請教就是根據核管法第16條之一我們確實是允許經營者先停出再運轉計畫再分階段來補齊第16條所要求的一些重要文件包含整體的老化評估 耐震安全評估中期安全分析等等的但是我們也看到經濟部已經有提到說他們希望可以在2028年能夠進行再運轉"},{"start":7113.652,"end":7131.186,"text":"那我想請教一下主委根據您的經驗我們從專業的角度來看還有從國際的審查實務來看我們能夠保證在三年之內完成這件事情嗎核安會可以完成審查嗎然後再運轉核安會一定依法根據國際的標準進行嚴格審查"},{"start":7134.651,"end":7144.831,"text":"该做的项目很多实际上我们没有办法给个确定的日期多快可以审查完毕一定要依照依法实行"},{"start":7145.953,"end":7164.949,"text":"必要的安全檢查所以我們依法行政嘛對不對依法執行嘛不會有一個確切的時間表嘛還是要回到就是國際的一個同儕單位以及透過國際的專業審查來進行所有的時程那是不是可以請教主委國際的專業審查的時程他們大概多久的時間呢"},{"start":7167.546,"end":7185.957,"text":"這也是不一定長短有些比較快有些會審查蠻長的對在我看到我今天收集到的資訊像法國就是像如您主委說的差異時間非常的大法國甚至到了20年所以我想大家還是專業性在於安全的問題那"},{"start":7188.198,"end":7211.377,"text":"在11月的時候監察院其實也提出了一份報告就已經把問題講得非常清楚就是海淀在104年的時候就已經去做他們現在就依照了美國的SHAC Level 3的標準替三座核電廠做過機率式的地震危害分析結果發現我不曉得主委知不知道這份報告就是說三座核電廠實際可以承受的地震程度"},{"start":7212.458,"end":7240.468,"text":"比當年都已經超過當年建廠時的設計值也就是說其實我們的耐震力需要很大的一個調整因為這是有一個很大的疑慮那在114年核關法修法的時候呢我也要再澄清一個重點就是核電廠的運轉執照其實都已經到齊了沒有什麼延續只有再運轉所以我們所有的執行都必須依法重新來過依照這個SSHEC Level 3的分析結果把整電"},{"start":7241.488,"end":7254.534,"text":"整個核電廠的耐震 安全 色化老輩的問題重新評估之後才能夠重新申請再運轉執照我這樣子說對嗎 這個流程是這樣子嗎對 地震絕對是我們要檢驗的最重要項目之一"},{"start":7255.247,"end":7284.747,"text":"好那接下來我也要來談核廢料的部分就是說我們現在呢其實不管怎麼講就是我們還沒有我們一直都有一個最關鍵的問題沒有處理就是像我們這個低放射性廢棄物選址條例從2006年立法之經將近20年我們都選不出一個最終處置場址那核二廠其實自己現在都是卡關的狀態因為乾式儲存設施沒有完工反映爐內的一個這個燃料棒還沒有退出來"},{"start":7285.647,"end":7303.638,"text":"就代表說我們到現在實務上根本無法執行那至於高放射性的廢棄物在經濟部6月的時候就已經公開他們會去提出高放選址的條例草案可是現在到12月了我們還是沒有看到任何的版本那"},{"start":7304.719,"end":7318.904,"text":"我想我們還是要非常坦白的去講過去國民黨在面對核廢料的問題其實都沒有真正來面對一直都沒有面對他們都一直停留在未來可以用乾式儲存先存40年再說"},{"start":7321.243,"end":7340.677,"text":"一直都沒有去面對最核心的一個核廢料處理的問題好那我這邊也覺得非常荒謬的是說我們今天還要協商青年基本法那其實在整個青年基本法討論的過程之中呢或者是我之前召開相關的環境的一個座談會的時候都會有年輕的朋友甚至兒少告訴我"},{"start":7341.738,"end":7369.258,"text":"我們現在所做的決定基本上承擔後果的都是他們因為在存40年之後在座的很多人可能都已經離開這個世界了可是我們的孩子就是要承受這一切後果的所以我就覺得非常的諷刺一邊說要尊重傾聽青年的聲音一邊要挺青年但是一邊我們做了這樣子的決議卻完全沒有去考慮到下一代要承受什麼樣子的"},{"start":7369.958,"end":7384.408,"text":"後果就只有把問題丟給下一代所以最後我也是想要再跟主委討論一下就是我們關於社會共識的部分核管法的第六條跟第五條其實都有去講到說我們的環評法"},{"start":7387.198,"end":7413.391,"text":"都有講到說我們需要保障我們的公眾安全而且要確保環境保護與生態保育那我想這個觀念其實一直在更新也一直在改變那環境部其實之前有說環評法需要修法彭啟明部長也在11月30號指出可以先進行政策性的環評但是實務上政策性環評只有遵循性質沒有任何的實質的否決權根本無法回應社會對於核電的一個疑慮"},{"start":7414.571,"end":7434.207,"text":"那過去呢 核安會也曾經在相關的報導說是否要繼續做環評呢 要由環境部來認定可是我認為作為核能安全的主管機關核安會有責任在相關的執法中清楚規範申請在運作時要具備哪些安全的 哪些文件"},{"start":7435.288,"end":7457.806,"text":"所以我想要請教主委在核電廠申請再運轉的制度上是否我們可以明確的去規範申請人必須檢部環評的相關資料我們可不可以把這樣子的一個要求納入執法裡面我們執法裡面也有包括輻射方面的安全評估"},{"start":7459.048,"end":7474.545,"text":"在河安會的職責是對於輻射對環境的影響評估要負完全的責任至於其他方面的議題我們會和環境部來共同協商討論"},{"start":7476.66,"end":7494.455,"text":"我想其實大家一直在講環評就像剛剛講的環境部已經表示環評法需要修法他可以先做政策性的環評這部分環境部已經沒有問題了可是現在是說現在問題是在於要做環評這個是你們說這要由環境部來認定可是我認為這應該是你們要來認定的"},{"start":7497.993,"end":7525.547,"text":"問題在這裡我們核安會職責是針對輻射安全做環境影響評估這方面是核安會要負全部的責任但是問題是我們還有講到你們的第六條也有講到公眾安全還有環境保護跟生態保育等等的你們自己也有提到我們現在是希望把這些東西也納入在環評裡面那這個是不是可以寫在執法裡面呢主委您的態度是"},{"start":7527.604,"end":7546.789,"text":"我跟委員說報告核管法第五條是明確寫說要合於相關法令這部分主管機關是回到環境部核安會已經針對會裡面的主管事項就是輻射相關的議題包括對環境對工作人員的一些輻射的相關議題都已經納入到執法裡面"},{"start":7548.729,"end":7570.803,"text":"所以這部分河岸會已經按照自己的職責來處理那剛才那個主委也有提到針對非輻射部分的環境保護這一部分可能會裡面還會再跟環境部進行討論那好 因為我時間已經到了那我想就再給我一個時間你們大概會討論多久我們可以來追蹤過去的進度你們跟環境部"},{"start":7574.966,"end":7594.299,"text":"我們要跟環境部討論要再向委員報告好不好我想我需要一個時程表可不可以之後一個禮拜之後給我一個你們規劃的時程好嗎給我兩個星期好不好兩個星期好 謝謝好 謝謝張雅琳委員請官員回座"},{"start":7602.781,"end":7620.367,"text":"先請林怡瑾委員質詢謝主席 有請陳主委有請陳主委主委好 委員好"},{"start":7622.943,"end":7650.429,"text":"這個星期一深夜日本親身的外海發生了規模7.6的強震日本也隨即針對鄰近鎮央的核電廠進行戒備跟安全檢查當然所幸一切平安我想任何人都不會想要再陷入311福島核災發生史的恐懼所以不論是核電廠除以與否"},{"start":7651.129,"end":7674.424,"text":"或者它是否還要再運轉就天災來臨時這個針對核電廠的這個安全管制還是非常重要的議題那經察院在今年11月7號有發布一個報告那這個報告裡面有指出說台灣三座核電廠的耐震能力堪憂那台電跟核安會應檢討"},{"start":7676.405,"end":7702.904,"text":"那監察委員也有表示說在地震風險無法預測的情況之下那各廠的運轉超過40年之際台電公司應該針對攸關緊急停機設備組件的先期耐震補強作業外還缺乏對於這個各核電廠結構體的耐震及系統老化影響等評估顯有安全的疑慮這個監察委員說的"},{"start":7704.625,"end":7731.932,"text":"雖然藍白聯手強行通過了核管法的修法把核電廠的運轉期限延長到60年我們從現實面來看無論如何我們都必須務實的去面對核電廠的安全管制的議題尤其監察院剛剛我說的公布了這個調查報告顯而易見不論它是在運轉的狀態或者是核電廠"},{"start":7733.649,"end":7758.325,"text":"的安全性他其實他特別對耐震度的方面我們都一定要嚴加的來加以這個檢視那特別檢察院這份報告也針對了耐震度來敦請台電跟核安會來檢討評估那可是本席認為除了地震這一件單單地震這件事情以外"},{"start":7759.326,"end":7772.154,"text":"它所造成的複合式的災害像是地震後會產生一些海嘯或者山崩甚至是軍事的威脅這個都應該要納入核子"},{"start":7776.477,"end":7790.004,"text":"反應設施運轉執照申請審核的辦法的評估項目當中其實民間團體也有提出很多寶貴的意見所以我現在要請教主委何安會參採這些民間的寶貴意見的情況如何"},{"start":7795.936,"end":7816.858,"text":"我們對這些意見非常動視 是所以內政方面或海嘯或複合型的災害對 複合型災害都有相關的規定也都有相關的評估都有把它參採進去這些複合型的災害的安全評估是的"},{"start":7819.513,"end":7842.779,"text":"同樣我們涉及核安法官的就是還有核子事故緊急應變的策略因為我們可以看到核安會都有辦核安演習本席是要提出一個關鍵的問題是核子事故緊急應變法中有關於核子事故緊急應變計劃區的劃定是不是要有檢討的必要"},{"start":7847.02,"end":7871.694,"text":"因為我們看日本福島核災發生後日本政府就強制核電半徑的20公里的居民要疏散驅離也要求20至30公里的居民要採室內掩蔽或自行疏散如果根據我國核子事故緊急應變計畫區的範圍其實只有8公里"},{"start":7876.007,"end":7900.486,"text":"那如果萬一發生核子事故的話恐怕我看恐怕是難以充分的應變那再來就是說這個緊急應變法的第13條的第二項有提到他說核子反應器設施經營者應定期提出緊急應變的計劃區內民眾防護措施的分析跟規劃並設置完成必要之場所及設備"},{"start":7902.182,"end":7921.063,"text":"河一、河二它半徑30公里的範圍內其實都框到整個台北市所以數百萬人都是所謂的潛在的影響對象河山場它半徑30公里的範圍內也框到了我們人潮熱絡的墾丁"},{"start":7924.525,"end":7950.19,"text":"鬧區 所以本席認為就算核電廠沒有在運轉那核廢料 核物料還是放在廠址裡面同樣有風險所以主委你認為在現在的交通狀況之下假設我們即便就是依照日本的標準 匡合30公里的範圍內那這數百萬人真的可以安全疏散嗎"},{"start":7952.591,"end":7972.295,"text":"我國的緊急應變區計畫是根據風險分析的科學評估結果這方法與美國等世界國家其他國家是一致的做法台電每三年都需要重新評估過緊急應變區的檢討評估我們經常有滾動式的檢討目前是8公里"},{"start":7981.158,"end":7992.134,"text":"對 8公里對 可是要檢討的範圍需要擴大嗎因為我們看日本我們覺得目前是緊急應變區是適當的我們經過科學分析以及風險分析這確實是要滾動式檢討"},{"start":7997.17,"end":8019.518,"text":"好 那即便你現在的所謂的8公里的這個計劃區裡面你覺得用現在的交通狀況安全疏散是沒有問題的沒有問題 我請這位署長補充一下跟委員報告一下 針對疏散的部分我們現在都是採超前部署的方式然後也就是在輔助還沒有外適之前先做預防性的疏散"},{"start":8019.938,"end":8047.9,"text":"因此就是在疏散的時候都會考量以風險來做最優先例如說弱勢族群這個會需要當然最優先是那所以它的這個疏散它是會分階段分流的來進行的這是目前的一個應變的一個規劃那也每年的河岸演習也都有進行演練像今年也就有針對屏東縣就是三公里範圍內的居民都有做這個疏散演練是以及弱勢族群也都有"},{"start":8048.5,"end":8074.23,"text":"因為我們如果參照這個日本這個福島核災發生那其實它是這個20公里半徑20公里是強制那30公里是要求他們自行所以我的意思是說這個20 30這個是日本政府的規定可是這個因為他們發生這個核災是血淋淋的這個例子在那裡所以我們的8公里是不是也必須要滾動式檢討"},{"start":8076.331,"end":8099.52,"text":"這8公里是不是範圍太小一些就是說是不是這個災害我覺得這個其實核安會也要定期檢討不是說它規定8公里那我們就是只用8公里來做安全疏散的範圍是不是報告委員這個部分我們也都有滾動的檢討因此我們最新的這個檢討評估台電公司提報的這個報告是今年6月的一個報告"},{"start":8100.5,"end":8120.028,"text":"是依照剛剛主委有說的依照我們風險評估跟國際上其他國家一樣的科學的根據來做的評估所以目前是定為八公里好那再來同樣的就是說民間其實也持續向河岸會來倡議就是所謂的高放選址的條例的立法"},{"start":8120.828,"end":8140.305,"text":"那我們當然不能說我們只是討論是否在運轉而始終忽視了這個高階核廢料的處置跟它的法源所以我要再次強調就無論核電廠運轉多久或者它是否重啟運轉用過的高放射性的這些廢棄物它就是產生就是在那邊"},{"start":8141.025,"end":8153.172,"text":"所以我們必須務實的面對這個問題嘛那高階核廢料它的處置一定是我們的必要任務啦齁那所以請教主委這個高放懸止條例 核安會內部還要討論多久"},{"start":8157.365,"end":8175.085,"text":"跟委員說明高放選條例其實是經濟部他的專案辦公室在研議那他去年 今年4月的時候辦公室成立然後他的工作就是要來執行這個高放選條例的立法那草案目前經濟部還在內部討論中"},{"start":8176.747,"end":8205.002,"text":"可是你們是共同參與的嗎我們其實有給經濟部我們的管制專業意見我們今年有邀請經濟部來會裡面跟他說明了三次我們對一些管制上的可能的技術要求讓他們能夠來那如果按照你的推估大約什麼時候會有比較具體的我確實會推估因為他們是專案辦公室在處理這件事情"},{"start":8205.322,"end":8230.228,"text":"好 最後再做一個小問題就是我國現行的原子能法它的主體是在1971年修正到現在已經超過50年那它的立法思維可以說是已經很難應對當代的這個核能挑戰尤其是它該這個法的這個宗旨它是究竟是要管制還是推廣什麼原子能的利用也有待商榷也就是說原子能法"},{"start":8231.268,"end":8242.657,"text":"應該要通盤檢視那並評估是不是要重修這個法所以我要請教主委說目前原子能法有推出修正草案的這個打算嗎"},{"start":8245.961,"end":8266.36,"text":"原子能法跟委員報告原子能法確實很長的時間沒有修改那我們也陸續的在進行草案的提出還有跟專家學者的討論因為現在相關的管制法規都有個別的法律在譬如說核子擺機設置管制法輻射防護法"},{"start":8268.201,"end":8290.125,"text":"這些管制法規都有在使用目前原子能法在執行上並沒有至暗難行但是因為它已經很久沒有修了這部分我們會繼續努力的把它修了讓它與時俱進以上報告好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝林怡瑾委員請官員回座現在請"},{"start":8297.926,"end":8311.373,"text":"劉書斌委員發言 請范雲委員代理主席請劉書斌委員質詢有請陳主委有請主委"},{"start":8328.84,"end":8346.806,"text":"主委好委員好我們在12月初的時候看到一個新聞就是雜貨的核電廠它被它的防護牆被"},{"start":8349.585,"end":8368.607,"text":"就破口了那整個烏克蘭的715億的核災設施有破口出現的時候那國際原子能總署就警告輻射外洩恐失控那這邊是一個叫防護牆那針對這個議題最重要的是核安衛事長管核子核電廠的安全那我們大家就想問的是說"},{"start":8369.668,"end":8386.496,"text":"我們的核電廠有沒有這樣子的一個防護牆還有就是說我關於核電廠的安全設計有沒有針對國際能源總署他所提到的暫時核安指引或有沒有外部威脅的評估的要求這件請組長"},{"start":8391.099,"end":8412.83,"text":"報告委員就是委員所問的就是針對IAEA最新的這些暫時的指引跟外部威脅這些重大評估目前就是台電公司都已經訂了核電廠面臨軍事威脅下確保核安的準備跟應變計畫以及相關的程序書那也透過每年的演習做一個檢討精進所以我們的台電有這樣的一個計畫書嘛對不對有在演習嘛對不對"},{"start":8416.092,"end":8444.14,"text":"那這個部分是不是可以給本席或是你們已經放在台電已經放到他的官網上面了嗎我知道這件事情嗎報告委員因為有些內容因為是涉及保安的部分所以他是屬於比較機敏的但是他在演練的時候我們的都會派員去做一個視察檢視好那我當然講詳細這是你們河岸會知道嘛對不對是好那這邊我特別想問到就是這後面的如果可以的話我希望說給本席一份這樣子有沒有機會"},{"start":8446.599,"end":8468.232,"text":"還是就是還有說核子安全的設施等等好那如果沒關係我們看到我是想問的是他是否這樣的一個指南裡面啦計劃書裡面是否有已經針對無人機的攻擊還有飛彈的落彈還有長時間斷電的這個設計基準外的這樣的事件有沒有這樣子的一個內容包括這些內容"},{"start":8469.544,"end":8488.476,"text":"報告委員有的 像委員所提的無人機攻擊也是近年非常重視的一個議題那每年也都有進行演練好 那這樣子就會涉及到更重要的問題老師我們已經針對了國際原子能總署最重要的最新的這樣的一個趨勢已經因應到像五二戰爭下面的無人機的攻擊"},{"start":8489.076,"end":8513.51,"text":"那在下面的問題再下來就是在於說那我們在8月20號的時候呢核三廠考察的時候台電的徐永慧副總他有回應到現場的質疑說核三廠有完整的安全性不只是原始設計的抗震是0.4G還已經加上了所有極端風險機率性的考量因此台電的徐副總他認為說核安會呢"},{"start":8515.791,"end":8532.652,"text":"所說的加固到1.384G呢是考量到所有安全性風險機率的抗爭能力並非只是抵抗單純的地震喔這是非常重要因為是何安威是做這個把關的那請問主委或者是高斌組長齁請問一下除一中的機組扯三的"},{"start":8533.473,"end":8546.44,"text":"核二的 乾式儲存的設施在是否已經納入暫時防護情境是否在國軍戰略跟民防單位有計畫的銜接保障核電在極端風險下仍然是安全的"},{"start":8548.661,"end":8562.895,"text":"報告委員,因為我們台灣的柑橱設施系統其實都引進於美國NRC核准的系統,那開發商當時在設計的時候,有些柑橱甚至是實際上採用飛機撞擊去做測試?"},{"start":8566.915,"end":8584.546,"text":"所以這邊事實上包括機組那乾式儲存你今天也提到了嘛對不對乾式儲存包括你們現在的已經開始招標的這乾式儲存廠的標也是要求這樣的一個標準對不對這台電公司的招標案不過台電公司招標案裡面對於耐震設計有特別的要求"},{"start":8585.106,"end":8600.714,"text":"對 而且是全部嘛對不對包括是極端風險都已經包括進去了好 那另外的是在國軍戰略跟民防單位是否跟這樣的一個演習有沒有做計畫 因為現在想要全民任性包括如果遇到這種極端的情況是不是也沒有問題"},{"start":8602.791,"end":8630.488,"text":"就是保障核電廠是安全的啦是 包括委員相關的這些重大威脅都有納入他的演習的情境然後有做討論跟實際的一個演練所以剛才所說的有些委員他們所提到的這樣的安全包括不只是地震甚至連極端的危險的狀況的風險都已經包括進去都可以抵擋住對不對是是的這就保證出你核安會的這樣子的一個尬詞我覺得非常好讓全民在核在"},{"start":8631.688,"end":8655.259,"text":"國家的民意最高電廠裡面立法院展現出這樣的一個核安的態度好那我們現在再看看是核三廠的議題我們現在已經進入到一個除疫的階段核三廠的一號機二號機電線現在所謂的過度的管制期包括說爐心的燃料也拿出來了那現在已經進入到的是所謂的自主安全檢查的一個時期對不對"},{"start":8656.199,"end":8671.328,"text":"那這個時期當中呢現在我就會遇到一個很大的問題就是說我也看到目前呢可以看到的是一個情況是因為經濟部部長他也提到的是台電預計在明年的"},{"start":8672.929,"end":8696.903,"text":"2026的3月要提出要提出來的是申請重啟的這個辦法提出的計劃嘛 對不對那現在就必須要說剛剛尤其是河山廠的2號機材才進入到一個除役的階段那除役的階段面臨到的是25年可是我們也知道如果他明年3月就進行的一個重啟的計劃書要提出來申請的話那會遇到"},{"start":8699.044,"end":8720.937,"text":"廚藝跟重啟的這個有這樣子的一個重疊時間那請問一下在這個情況之下哪一個轉是不是會遇到有一個轉折點的情況那這個轉折點是在哪裡可能會在哪裡就現在已經有了資料上級長官經濟就是說另外的在屬於核三廠的我說核電廠的重啟這部分請回答"},{"start":8724.58,"end":8747.302,"text":"跟委員說明除役許可的申請案是執照到期前三年那台電公司依法來向會裡面申請那這部分就是等台電公司提出除役的環評報告之後那如果符合法規 核安會才會核發除役許可那目前如果按照台電公司或者經濟部對外說明如果明年三月提出換照的申請案"},{"start":8747.842,"end":8763.712,"text":"那核安委也是依法來就是還審理之後再看情況然後因為剛才委員提到除役跟重啟這兩件事情可能會並行那我們也會參考國外核電廠重啟的經驗就是恢復申請的經驗"},{"start":8764.727,"end":8781.729,"text":"那我們會針對重啟的現場工作進行現場查證或視察那也會針對重啟跟廚藝的共通事項來進行查證那這部分還是會持續辦理一些乾除設施用過燃料的一些安全的管制作業"},{"start":8782.45,"end":8806.623,"text":"換言之如果台電提出重啟的一個申請那當然依照程序去申請的話也提出你們在審核包括的情況下就變成重啟會是比較優先的項目但是重啟跟在裡面他要預報過的是在核燃料裡面的這個燃料棒也是要拿起來如果他是說已經有空間乾除設施可以進去包括乾除廠也是會繼續再建嘛對不對"},{"start":8807.543,"end":8834.204,"text":"是的那現在的問題是那二號機的部分燃料池這部分也都大概有了解所以包括現在的處理設備的拆除這件事情基本上就會停止的喔廚藝當中的這個設備的拆除這部分會停止嗎對 跟委員說明現在是就是按照廚藝計畫的規劃是現在是過渡階段那台電公司就是準備一些乾除設施的一些準備新建作業"},{"start":8834.964,"end":8857.816,"text":"因為現在還沒有正式提出來我一次用過燃料的安全好那現在可是已經看得到一號機我們已經看到說它的已經開工把設備拆除氮氣槽跟試水加清系統的部分那二號機是否還會繼續進行二號機的這個氮氣槽跟試水加清設備各位委員那是合一廠氮氣槽跟試水加清這是合一廠的"},{"start":8858.927,"end":8883.922,"text":"好那這樣子了解所以事實上核戰是更新型的嘛對不對就沒有這個設施那我們現在要更強調的是另外一部分可是如果遇到的是核燃重啟那重啟的情況之下有一個問題是說核燃料的補充是重要的因為核燃料的補充我們現在看到這裡就是說核燃料如果在營運的運轉的計畫裡面的核燃料補充這部分那到時候是會有誰來負責"},{"start":8885.023,"end":8900.757,"text":"是來編預算等等的這部分有沒有考慮到這些事情因為你們可能也遇到這樣的情形要思考跟委員說明這個燃料者採購是屬於台電公司的商務採購合約那這部分細節要由台電公司去規劃說明"},{"start":8901.874,"end":8925.853,"text":"OK好那就是可能兩邊都被重啟了之後他表示核燃料的部分可能台電部分就會更重要的去下去負責這邊的一個重啟等等更重要的一個構置對不對好那可是剛才有一個問題是在於說另外剛才對重啟有個政策有說環評剛才說提到環評可是目前環境部的部長他要提到是說"},{"start":8927.034,"end":8949.565,"text":"要做環評可是現在在目前的核子設施反應器的管治法當中並沒有關於特別所謂的他後來講到說政策環評因為考慮到要政策環評就會把人民的這個意見放進來當地的或是全國的意見中進來那請問一下對於政策環評我是注意到是政策環評的意見核安會的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":8951.972,"end":8961.9,"text":"覺得有必要嗎如果有提出政策環評的話那當然要修法可能在核子設施反應器的管制法裡面你們的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":8963.183,"end":8989.046,"text":"核安會是負責核能安全管制對於輻射對環境的影響評估這責任完全是在核安會核安會要負起全部的責任核安會是負責環境評估對不對但是我現在說是政策環評因為現在環評裡面沒有特別去講到是對跟人的這方面的事情我們會跟其他議題我們會跟環境部協商討論"},{"start":8990.046,"end":9016.542,"text":"好 那如果這樣的話是不是要涉及到要把核子攝氏反應器的管理管制法要做修訂才能加入到這個有法源依據是不是要有這樣的考量跟委員先補充說明那核安會是核安嘛主管機關那針對輻射的相關議題在我們的執法已經納進來了那這部分也是環評的一部分那但是針對非輻射"},{"start":9017.703,"end":9046.522,"text":"非輻射相關的環境評估這部分那可能就要剛才主委有說明就是要跟環境部再去討論不過因為所有的事情因為剛才說辦法有可是所有的事情都需要要有法源依據的那目前政策環境是看到沒有的像跟環境部在做溝通之後這部分可能會是重要的一個依據不然沒有辦法的法源依據其實做不來只是在辦法上面它的一個執行的效力也是會有問題的我就提供到這樣子的一個意見我希望大家跟環境部的時候要注意到這個議題"},{"start":9047.743,"end":9070.858,"text":"好 謝謝主委請回謝謝那個劉淑冰委員的質詢下一個請郭玉琴委員謝謝主席有請主委有請陳主委"},{"start":9076.909,"end":9104.118,"text":"好 主委辛苦了這個經濟部雖然已經核定了台電的一個評估那核一是不可能重啟核二核三可能但是台電說還需要大概一年半到兩年來做這個評估跟自主的檢查但並不是說這個做完兩年之後就馬上可以因為後面還要經過我們的最嚴格的這個核安會的一個審查所以應該是說1.5加2年後面要加N對不對"},{"start":9105.638,"end":9125.968,"text":"我想這是非常重要的一個提醒那我想關於核一其實它已經有一個先例了光是這樣子一個審查的過程就長達了將近有7年那這個也給我們一個非常重要的一個提醒第一就是我們的審查不能硬壓縮這個時間因為安全是最重要的"},{"start":9126.448,"end":9154.933,"text":"那再來就是我們的標準是不是應該要公開再來核廢料的後端這我常常在講核廢料的後端要怎麼處理我們是不是一定要講清楚我想今天這個質詢其實最希望就是我們核安會可以能夠幫助或者是整合我們整個所有的一個行政團隊那把這個研議當成是一個非常非常重要的一環跟治理的架構我們是不是能夠用透明可信"},{"start":9155.453,"end":9171.386,"text":"最重要的是對全民安全還有凝聚我們的社會的共識那我想第一個問題就來了我想這個河安在審查的時候我剛剛講不能壓時程這個壓時程其實就會避免變成是政治的時程"},{"start":9172.386,"end":9197.098,"text":"壓過安全的一個考量這是不對的我想這個合一當年其實我們預估大概要將近24個月是兩年的時間但是後來其實我們做了整整快要七年的一個時間所以其實這代表這個核能的審查它的本質上本來就那麼複雜它不是單一的不是說你兩年就可以兩年但後來我們也發現做了七年其實我們不能用政治的時程"},{"start":9197.978,"end":9212.737,"text":"去逼迫所謂的時間點這個其實是大家都應該要知道的那接下來我想要請問的就是核安會我們能不能夠主動的去公布這個安全的審查到底應該要有多久"},{"start":9213.157,"end":9227.682,"text":"因為我們要讓社會知道這個審查是照安全而不是照政治避免外界其實在誤解我們政府是為了要趕時間我想這個安全是不能用趕時間這三個字來做政治性的一個考量"},{"start":9228.682,"end":9247.494,"text":"再來當經濟部說核一老化到已經不行了同時核二也大概是差三年了就有可能會有老化狀況也會完全不同我們當初在講到尤其是乾除的設備核二的部分是2030年才會完工這個沒有錯對不對"},{"start":9249.315,"end":9276.403,"text":"好那核安會我們是不是已經確認了這些所謂的時間差還有老化進程當中的一些差異並排除掉時程的壓力會造成所謂的被迫加速審查這樣子的一個利率這兩個問題請教一下核安會核安會職責最重要的是確保核電廠運作的安全這點是毫無模糊的餘地我們審查"},{"start":9278.482,"end":9298.869,"text":"那我們會不會主動公布我再重複一次問題我們會不會主動公布這個安全審查需要多久的一個評估我們會一切都是非常透明所有的申請書我們的審查意見台電的回覆我們都會上網公告而且每一個程序都會"},{"start":9300.553,"end":9325.519,"text":"讓大家知道而且我們絕對不會為了縮短時間是剛剛我有特別提到就是說我們的核二大概是差三年它的老化狀況可能跟之前我們的評估可能就會完全不一樣我們有沒有把在審查的過程當中這些有可能的一些比方說它老化的程度或者是它的一些變數我們有沒有把它考量在"},{"start":9325.899,"end":9354.935,"text":"那一定要考慮的是一定要考慮的所以已經有這樣子的一個考量對那必須要做的好那我們剛剛有提到這個核一其實最後被判定是因為老化過於嚴重這個核一的部分那另外如果說核三要重啟這老化的評估將是一個非常非常重要的一個關鍵那我想這個核三的老化評估的標準會不會比核一更加的嚴格我舉例來講包含防震"},{"start":9355.635,"end":9383.48,"text":"那麼包含壓力容器的一個催化還有它的結構性的疲勞另外還有蒸氣產生器等等這些有沒有包含在裡頭因為我們也看到這個國際它有例行檢查的一個但卻看不出問題的一個案例那包含這個戴維斯貝西核電廠他們真的例行的檢查但問題是他居然找不到這個問題在哪裡有這樣子的一個案例所以我們核三如果真的要重啟我們的核安的條件"},{"start":9384.5,"end":9414.137,"text":"會不會比核一要來得更加的嚴謹請教我們對這個所有的老化所有零件的老化評估都會非常非常的仔細檢查就這樣一句話而且因為已經申請延期20年所以核安會對這個是非常非常謹慎的那我直接這樣問我說我們核電的自主檢查現在目前有沒有接軌最新的國際的標準這點請教主要回答"},{"start":9415.01,"end":9437.763,"text":"跟委員說明,那有關於老化跟反應爐這些的組件或一些必須要考慮到的因素會裡面有參考國際的一些標準跟做法因為我記得何三當初有說如果要研議的話這個蒸汽產生器其實要不要換那之前其實我們的台電有說必須要換那現在這個立場是一致的嗎"},{"start":9438.983,"end":9452.871,"text":"這個還是要透過台電公司現場去檢查然後進行評估之後我們才會知道那會不會公開重要檢查的項目跟標準會不會公開當然啦那個在運轉計畫裡面就會去規範說台電公司要做哪些事情"},{"start":9453.871,"end":9472.866,"text":"因為這個是建立社會信任最重要最關鍵的一步啦所以其實在這個檢查的項目那我們有沒有接軌國際或者是說我們的項目嚴謹到什麼樣的一個程度我相信其實應該要公開透明讓更多的社會能夠了解我們有社會共識剛剛我提到社會共識很重要喔好"},{"start":9473.326,"end":9498.1,"text":"第三個問題來了我想這個後端的核廢料如果沒有規劃好其實根本不用考慮研議的一個問題我相信這個核二的乾除其實我們拖了大概也說2030年這個將近快要10年那另外就是核廢料的一個處理如果沒有解決的話核電的政策其實就會被卡住那我想核廢料的處理是非常非常的重要請教一下核安會"},{"start":9498.7,"end":9523.505,"text":"是不是已經要求這個河山的重啟的計畫必須要同步提出我的乾除的時程跟地方有沒有進行非常密切的溝通另外呢再來進度在哪裡如果河山沒有清除的乾除的一個時程請問我們會不會認為這是不符合審查啟動的一個正當性另外就是高放的場址"},{"start":9524.005,"end":9534.92,"text":"我們講今年要提出今年年底要提出請問現在的時間是12月11號到目前我沒有看到草案這個目前草案在哪裡"},{"start":9537.219,"end":9563.465,"text":"向委員報告有關河山的甘楚的部分在12月4號台電公司第一次開標因為沒有達三家所以它不符合相關採購法規定台電公司會再辦理第二次的公開招標作業相關的期程其實掌握在河南匯的部分我們大概建造執照會省一年半左右"},{"start":9564.945,"end":9571.692,"text":"市運轉跟運轉直到各省4個月其他的工程的要件都是由台電公司來掌控"},{"start":9572.441,"end":9598.074,"text":"那第二個問題有關那個委員吹詢的這個高放處置的宣誓條例我們其實河岸會主動邀請經濟部在今年開了三次會議我們提供的管制資訊給他但是目前草案還在經濟部還在內部討論中說12月底呢12月底現在已經快要12月底了我們理解但是因為這經濟部的作業我們其實不"},{"start":9600.115,"end":9614.391,"text":"好 那我到經濟部那邊再去諮詢的意思嗎謝謝好 那我想我剛剛講到這個所謂的這個高放長值這個條例的部分目前你們也還沒看到沒有"},{"start":9614.952,"end":9644.21,"text":"好那因为你们没看到那我当然更看不到所以我可能还要再继续的追问但是我真的希望就是核安会在整个所有的条例当中我刚刚讲12月底之前出来的这个草案我们核安会有没有角色在里面有没有角色一般来讲就是经济部他要做临选计划的时候他会征询我们的意见然后日后如果寻找出场址他的安全性由我们来负责确认"},{"start":9645.182,"end":9673.886,"text":"好你們來負責確認好我相信今天其實我們主席特別排這樣子的一個就是請你們來做這樣子的一個業務的報告那最重要的其實我們應該要從合一給我們的一些教訓也好給我們的一些歷史的經驗也好就是審查不能壓縮尤其是安全性的部分絕對不能因為政治的關係而壓縮到所謂的安全審查的這個時程再來後端不能拖延"},{"start":9674.686,"end":9691.011,"text":"還有就是老化的部分我們不能輕忽其實這三大重點只要我們掌握住才有資格來談後續我核三要重啟這樣子的一個問題所以我相信我也希望這個核安會我們用最嚴謹"},{"start":9692.311,"end":9716.787,"text":"然後再來最公開的一個方式我們把審查的過程然後跟民間的溝通跟所有的共識的集結然後包含我剛剛所提到的到現在12月我們是還沒有看到所謂的高放選址到底什麼時候這個草案條例才會出來那這個部分如果河安會你們這邊有先第一手掌握到一些訊息再提供給我辦公室可以嗎可以的好 謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":9722.036,"end":9741.634,"text":"謝謝郭鈺請委員 官員請回座現在請范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員主委有請陳主委"},{"start":9748.711,"end":9776.871,"text":"主委好我想从我们五月的时候我们教文委员会蓝白匆匆修了这个核子反应器设施管制法第六条让它可以就是所谓的在运转20年原本只有40年的这个年限到现在我们居然听到我认为是假消息2027要重启核电想请问主委"},{"start":9777.751,"end":9801.876,"text":"就是和安我們領妥協對不對這是和安會的立場嗎不是不是你說我說和安領妥協對和安領妥協我剛才沒聽出對不起對我們對和安的要求是沒有任何妥協餘地而且絕對是非常清楚的"},{"start":9802.856,"end":9826.704,"text":"好 那我們一切都是依法喔雖然我認為上次這個衝衝修法喔那針對所謂叫做什麼叫做重啟喔什麼叫做再運轉喔講得不清不楚並沒有強化安全因為這個法很多都是舊的喔那但是呢依照現在的法規如果台電送出再運轉計畫河岸會必須審查以下六項文件沒錯嗎主委 這個六項文件是的沒錯吧"},{"start":9832.273,"end":9840.75,"text":"沒有錯那這個第六個其他經主管機關指定的文件目前你們有指定什麼文件嗎第六項"},{"start":9842.947,"end":9871.725,"text":"因為前面就是老化等等當然監委已經告訴大家就是監委的報告談到跟地震相關的安全評估也請參考第六項其他經主管機關指定的文件你們決定了沒有跟委員說明前面我們是參考美國的換照的申請所必須要提出來的文件另外我們也考量國內的管制的重點就包括輻射相關議題跟耐震這部分好"},{"start":9872.225,"end":9900.357,"text":"那這個第六項是什麼內容我今天有詳細的想要跟你們討論確定您剛講是依照就是美國的標準嗎如果是依照2024年美國政府問責署那他的美國核能管理委員會有提到要充分考慮氣候變遷的潛在影響高溫乾旱野火等等這個部分那台灣這是講的是一般性對不對台灣的部分"},{"start":9901.937,"end":9919.692,"text":"2013年歐盟的核安管制組織來台同行審查的時候就有提到關鍵風險應該要全面更新自然災害的評估特別是地震海嘯他們認為台灣的地震海嘯"},{"start":9920.413,"end":9938.418,"text":"的風險而且是複合式的非常的高特別是河山所在地斷層要更精細的研究那低震度後也要檢查建議我們重新評估斷層與地震的危害所以根據這個部分這個報告那個主委有看過嗎這個歐盟的河岸管制組織來台灣的時候給的建議不知道主委有沒有看過"},{"start":9948.328,"end":9976.629,"text":"我自己是没有看过那请主委再去看一下因为美国的这个部分是指一个一般性的那欧盟的这个核安管制组织给我们是针对台湾现在做的当时做的所以呢根据那个内容我这次为了就是质询特别再看了一次专家十年前就建议有三项重点要纳入第一个极端天然灾害地震海啸水灾台风第二个"},{"start":9977.449,"end":10005.968,"text":"喪失安全系統因為外部因素導致喪失電力的處理方式第三個嚴重事故的處理核災發生的時候你有可能道路斷裂或者是地震專業人員無法及時抵達的處理機制核安會是不是可以把你們剛剛的有一個依法的其他經主管機關指定的文件把這三項也納入請他們提供然後你們再專業審查可以嗎"},{"start":10007.652,"end":10032.634,"text":"跟委員說明那有關於當時候歐盟專家所提的意見那核安會已經整理核管案件那也持續在辦理那針對耐震的這部分那我們也特別關注就是把它納進來也就是說要求台電公司機組如果要繼續運轉的時候要針對地震的可能危害那以及包括相關的安全防護都要納入整體的評估來確保整個機組"},{"start":10034.575,"end":10052.6,"text":"那我知道光地震這一項監察委員的報告今年11月田秋瑾等趙詠卿蔡崇義三位監委的報告就講到就是地震的風險剛剛張雅玲委員也有提到就是說耐震非常的不足所以這些東西都必須要提供喔"},{"start":10054.181,"end":10081.078,"text":"那這部分所涉及的可能的危害包括地震海嘯這部分都有納進來都有納進來所以都會請他們依照這三項都會納入審查沒錯吧這個有關於是電力的那個你講的一些語言因為我們不是專業未必懂這三項歐洲專家十年前就建議的這三項重點這一次都會請他們提供然後納入審核吧你只要說會還是不會"},{"start":10081.858,"end":10106.312,"text":"都有納入相關說明在會後給我報告好嗎這是關於審查的部分我們再次確定核安零風險今天我們還沒有機會講的重啟三條件核廢有解方核安零風險第三個社會有共識依照你們的專業理解核廢現在有解方嗎有或沒有"},{"start":10111.469,"end":10125.262,"text":"主委 有或没有 现在何非啊这个议题会一直持续进行中对 现在连高阶的连法都还没出来目前有些国家处理方式很多人还认为不是最理想"},{"start":10126.491,"end":10141.189,"text":"有或没有解放台湾我们不能够送给其他的国家处理台湾有没有解放台湾现在选址条例都还没有对嘛连条例都没出来高阶的专法都没出来所以到目前为止没有解放好"},{"start":10142.19,"end":10166.518,"text":"那再來我想要提一下危機來臨的時候核安風險那個主委您知道這個車諾比核電廠雖然就是他本身已經大家知道車諾比事件之後都已經停下來了那可是還是被無人機攻擊所以他的防護罩被損壞失去了主要的安全功能那烏克蘭"},{"start":10167.758,"end":10185.231,"text":"剛剛也都有委員講到扎波羅熱核電廠是歐洲最大的核電廠不斷的遇到就是斷電的問題而且它也沒有辦法成為備電的這個暫時的備電電源這個部分就是主委都知道吧對"},{"start":10187.364,"end":10213.595,"text":"但是我针对这个议题跟核安会请教过核安会给我的报告不知道为什么你们的报告内容完全认为不会有任何的风险然后详细列了第一个你们认为我们的核电厂在战争的时候据说不会成为攻击的目标针对战争风险的准备列了11点都是场内的应变只有在第10点提到"},{"start":10214.395,"end":10240.307,"text":"由核子事故中央災害應變中心統籌國家救援能量協助鬥號結合全民防衛動員體系請問你們真的有跟全民防衛動員體系一起討論嗎這本裡面我翻了半天完全沒有如果發生烏克蘭的情況或者是像車諾堡的這部分到底附近的居民該怎麼處理"},{"start":10243.252,"end":10262.27,"text":"今天不管是停役或者重启都有同样的风险为什么里面都没有核灾发生的时候该怎么处理报告委员在小局书的第12页有针对核子事故的一个应变第12页我现在看了是我看不懂吗第12页的下方"},{"start":10263.129,"end":10288.325,"text":"下方只有三行停電立即進入室內關閉門窗打開電視機政府會在適當時機發佈民眾配合措施如疏散服用點片等因為這個是第一階段最緊急的時候要請民眾進到室內去作業所以我們恆春人或新北人台北人只值得這三行字"},{"start":10290.648,"end":10317.771,"text":"那如果它在外面被輻射塵沾到了回家之後應該怎麼樣那個現在你可以不告訴我報告委員如果外面有輻射塵我們也是請民眾趕快進到室內去做掩蔽那因為輻射塵就是要洗手洗臉把它清掉之後那這裡面有告訴大家要洗手洗臉嗎因為小局數的部分是針對比較全民的我們另外還有核子事故的應變指南"},{"start":10318.311,"end":10332.792,"text":"好那應變指南你有發給就是所有在風險區的民眾像小局書一人一本嗎有的有的是那我的我的老家在新北淡水我們並沒有拿到像這樣的一個小局書啊請問"},{"start":10334.314,"end":10362.594,"text":"那我想告诉大家的就是说请参考一下月前式以下我们有月前式的就是防止核灾和指南那他有讲到的非常清楚我们刚刚所讲的稳定性点片是怎么使用可以事前就使用然后如果是核灾的时候你去相关的避难地点的时候必须像这样穿雨衣要戴口罩手也要戴手套脚不能穿凉鞋"},{"start":10363.234,"end":10376.611,"text":"如果是在室內外面回來的時候衣服要脫掉相關的衣服要把它放在袋子裡頭進行隔離等等連氣窗都要關起來這些大家都知道嗎"},{"start":10378.496,"end":10400.157,"text":"這本裡面都沒有因為依照烏克蘭的經驗它是有可能複合式發生的我們不希望發生但是有準備是最好的是不是針對這個部分你們要怎麼樣能夠不管是日本月前市的水準或者是小局書的補充是不是能夠給本席一個報告因為朝偉已經站起來了"},{"start":10401.397,"end":10421.034,"text":"好不好 可以參照辦理嗎在我們的核子事故應變指南其實都有相關的內容請把你們發放的範圍內容就是因為我在新北的居民家裡至少沒有看到小橘樹現在都還沒有發普遍我在台北市的家中也還沒收到所以"},{"start":10421.734,"end":10450.147,"text":"這個有沒有發放跟有沒有針對每個居民潛在風險區的都人手一本是很大的差距好不好可以把你們發放的範圍跟內容跟本席然後這本裡面是不是可以如果有改版的機會不要只有三行字所有在合一合二合三場合四附近的居民都值得一個更嚴肅的對待有準備最安全好嗎"},{"start":10451.547,"end":10464.66,"text":"好 給本席一個報告 多久之內可以給我兩星期可不可以兩星期你們準備得出來 好 兩星期喔 謝謝召委 謝謝主委好 謝謝范雲委員 那行政官員請回座現在請伍麗華委員質詢"},{"start":10481.094,"end":10484.399,"text":"謝謝主席有請主委有請陳主委"},{"start":10491.645,"end":10519.298,"text":"主委好 委員好今年5月核管法修法之後我們有看到新聞就是台電會把再運轉計畫預計是明年的3月就會提送給你們核安會那麼我們也看到你們特別提到核一廠大概就是除役了雖然要40加20但是停機已經多年"},{"start":10520.046,"end":10540.412,"text":"但是你們評估核二核三是OK的那麼核二的部分他要先移除反應爐內的燃料燃料池進空之後才提報那核三的話因為是剛停機所以你們覺得設備是維持良好的"},{"start":10541.152,"end":10566.864,"text":"有再運轉的一個可能性好那現在我也看到一個新聞就是彭啟明這個環境部的部長他聽到這個台電會把再運轉計畫送到河安會他希望河安會要去做環評將環保納入考量先請教一下主委你的意見如何"},{"start":10569.008,"end":10571.539,"text":"核安会的职责是确保核电的安全"},{"start":10573.717,"end":10586.021,"text":"輻射對環境影響的評估就是核安會責任核安會這方面也會負起完全的責任保證所以你們會啟動環評會啟動環評保證會對這方面做好環境的評估其他方面的議題我們會和環境部來協商討論"},{"start":10601.425,"end":10605.873,"text":"好 那您看看就是這個換發執照的程序"},{"start":10607.665,"end":10635.627,"text":"整體性老化評估及老化管理報告實現老化分析報告相關中期安全分析報告運轉技術規範增修內容輻射相關液體查核評估報告耐震安全評估說明其他經主管機關指定文件所以我不太了解 諸位您剛剛說您非常支持一定會納入去做環境的評估那不曉得是在哪一個部分"},{"start":10637.368,"end":10661.794,"text":"輻射相關議題的評估報告就會包括對環境的影響環境影響評估報告就是我們核安會的職權所以您說第四項輻射相關議題查核評估報告這個就是環境評估報告對 輻射對環境影響評估就是我們核安會的責任好 所以您只做輻射環評的這個部分你只負責輻射單項"},{"start":10664.034,"end":10684.072,"text":"其他的議題是交給台電嗎其他的議題我們會跟環境部來討論好 謝謝因為我們在礦業法修法的時候當時我們也做了一件事情因為以前是他們說你的祖先同意我挖"},{"start":10685.39,"end":10711.863,"text":"就表示它永遠可以挖 沒有這回事嘛所以我們礦業法修法之後如果你要研你也必須要做部落諮商同意那現在一樣當年也沒有環評所以也沒做過可是現在既然要研議我想這個部分 淑慧妳剛剛的態度我們也聽到了 妳是很支持的妳覺得該做 而且妳們也會做 對不對"},{"start":10712.796,"end":10726.835,"text":"我們對環境 輻射方面我們會做的那謝謝喔那現在我就是要請教另外一個問題喔就是你們有沒有將在地居民的意願納入審查評估的項目裡面我沒看到"},{"start":10732.47,"end":10747.611,"text":"跟委員說明那個運轉執照申請的審核辦法相關的技術文件所必須要審查的要項我們都是參考美國的做法然後拉進來我們有自己中華民國的法律延續法都有結果你參照美國"},{"start":10750.065,"end":10773.395,"text":"跟委員報告說明那換照主要的精神是在確認說機組的設備在未來的繼續運轉期間能夠完全運轉不是只有礦業法啦現在所有的再生能源啦每一個都會踐行只要是公有地傳統領域都要遵照原基法踐行部落諮商同意啦"},{"start":10774.815,"end":10783.721,"text":"這個是其他的部會都已經在做的事情所以我想這個部分因為我沒有看到那我想請教一下主委 這個怎麼辦"},{"start":10791.223,"end":10813.376,"text":"好沒有關係我希望你們就是要去找園民會來討論一下那我希望這個部分我等一下最後的時候我再做一個比較清楚的訴求的要求那另外我想要請教一下因為我看到行政院的國家永續發展委員會下有一個非核家園的小組"},{"start":10814.577,"end":10828.353,"text":"那麼他最後一次開會是110年的4月已經蠻久了所以我想要請教一下主委這個行政院的非核家園推動小組他好像已經沒有再開會"},{"start":10829.634,"end":10848.38,"text":"也沒有積極的督促經濟部或台電針對低階核廢的最終處置或者是高階核廢的一個處理的嚴厲的立法所以我只想請教我們核安會的主委你覺得這個非核家園小組還有沒有存在的必要"},{"start":10854.252,"end":10870.737,"text":"這應該請行政院來回覆沒有啊 我只是請教您啊你是要推動核的啊我只是問說那個推動非核的你覺得他們那個小組還有存在的必要嗎"},{"start":10872.799,"end":10884.464,"text":"因為核安會執掌只是核安管制方面的工作我當然知道啊所以我只是請教您你覺得它有沒有存在的必要反正你們已經也要提報再運轉計畫了"},{"start":10889.751,"end":10904.545,"text":"報告委員這個非核家庭的專案小組其實是行政永續會所成立的那這個成立當年成立這個有它的目的那在"},{"start":10905.606,"end":10933.511,"text":"目前是開會開到第六次那為了進一步來探討核後端相關議題那核安會我們在今年的4月10號有去見請發函非核小組來希望他們能夠來推動第七次那你那個公文給我辦公室好不好第七次我們促請非核小組來因為我們大家都很納悶啊還要不要推非核家園啊是不是"},{"start":10935.171,"end":10959.184,"text":"好來那下一個部分我也想再請教就是我們看到新聞日本福島第一核電廠它要進行第17次排放寒川廢水那核安會這邊的報告也看到了你們的儀表板都是不合格件數0000也就是都很合格"},{"start":10960.265,"end":10978.054,"text":"但是我想請教一下因為你們的採樣是色跟川但是核種類很多啊例如什麼呢碳14.129啊請教一下主委這一些你們沒有在檢測嗎"},{"start":10981.244,"end":11007.111,"text":"跟委員報告碳14我們在113年已經研發完成今年我們就按照新的方法在檢測所以第18次排放的時候我們會看到碳14就對了不是 我們目前對碳14的檢測魚類的檢測目前看起來都跟國際的但是我們沒有看到你們儀表板有啊"},{"start":11009.568,"end":11027.602,"text":"很多人也想看到碳14.129那我們回去來檢討一下我們希望下次看到好不好是因為這個不重要這個核種不重要沒有安全疑慮還是因為我們的技術檢測技術沒有達到我們的技術是沒有問題那技術沒有問題我就安心啦"},{"start":11036.172,"end":11064.756,"text":"主要是我們目前監測的核種是以川跟色為主但是很多人不這麼想啊核的種類那麼多為什麼每次看到你們就檢測這個川所以大家有疑慮啊所以我才來問啊那既然檢測技術沒問題下次就給我們好不好所以我剛剛以上所提的就是希望說兩個月內可以找原民會或者找衛福部環境部 國科會 中研院就是"},{"start":11066.417,"end":11088.717,"text":"針對這一些到底要不要做部落諮商同意要不要做環評怎麼做還有這些川以外的河種到底它對人體的危害的風險還有控管標準能夠提出一個報告可以嗎 主委好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝武力華為行政官員回座 謝謝"},{"start":11097.006,"end":11123.237,"text":"請葉元之委員質詢你好主席好 麻煩請主委好 我請陳主委"},{"start":11130.868,"end":11136.932,"text":"主委好首先我覺得今天剛剛很多委員包括民進黨委員在內我非常"},{"start":11137.915,"end":11159.923,"text":"肯定大家終於能夠就事論事來討論核電是否延誼的問題我記得今年初那時候我們要通過核管法的時候當時只是希望讓核電廠有延誼的機會那至於說核電廠到底能不能延誼當然就必須經過大家的討論跟核安會對核安的確認"},{"start":11161.397,"end":11189.9,"text":"可是在修核安法的時候呢民進黨的立委通通亂罵一通像那個范雲他說核電重啟會有國安風險會造成經濟成本越來越高我也不知道他在講什麼一個張雅玲立委更扯他說核電廠如果研議就是要為中國攻台開方便之門這個已經抹紅抹到我不知道他在講什麼了如果按照這樣說法的話童子賢"},{"start":11191.442,"end":11206.06,"text":"總統府的這個顧問前兩天才獲中華民國核能學會頒發特殊奉獻獎就是因為他多次倡議核電對經濟發展以及台灣的重要性難不成童子賢也是在幫中共開後門"},{"start":11207.423,"end":11236.201,"text":"所以難得今天大家在討論這件事情的時候都能夠就事論事而不是只要講到核電就一堆口水讓大家實在是很難討論下去所以今天我還是要表達一下對於今天整個過程是感覺到非常欣慰民進黨的人忠於理性不會動不動就抹紅那以下就就幾件事情跟主委請教一下第一個有關於剛剛大家也有提到"},{"start":11237.728,"end":11259.978,"text":"很多人在講說核電廠到底要不要環評那這個問題應該是問環境部但環境部就推給核安會就說這個就叫核安會來政策環評那我先表達我的立場我覺得本來核安會就會做這個事情根本不需要環境部叫你們做這個事沒錯吧你本身就會針對這個"},{"start":11263.74,"end":11292.412,"text":"相關的 譬如說地質的問題 河岸的問題你會做評估嘛對 輻射輻射嘛 對不對所以我不太知道彭啟明在指導你們是要你們做什麼你知道他的意思嗎是他意見嘛你知道他的意見是什麼嗎 他要你幹嘛他有跟我們溝通嘛他要你幹嘛嘛我們兩個單位之間一直有溝通啊不是啦 他叫你幹嘛嘛主委 我意見溝通內容是什麼嘛"},{"start":11293.909,"end":11300.559,"text":"問A答B好不好這個問題有那麼難回答嗎他要你幹什麼我知道他要你幹什麼他是希望指導你要你幹什麼"},{"start":11302.003,"end":11323.366,"text":"我們核安會對輻射對環境影響評估他要你做輻射對環境影響評估你本來沒有要做嗎本來就是我們對啊 那就給說這環境部長給說講這要幹嘛所以有要做環評嗎除了他講的叫你做要做一般的那個環評法裡面的環評沒有嘛"},{"start":11324.787,"end":11336.856,"text":"他好像不是這個意思不是這個意思嗎其他的環境議題因為為什麼會這樣問因為很多人都覺得說彭其民講這個話很奇怪然後也不要逢何必反"},{"start":11338.448,"end":11361.695,"text":"就像很多人也提到啊 像興達電廠演繹興達電廠這跟你無關啦興達電廠是火力發電廠演繹是說演就演啊沒有看到任何人出來講說要叫他去做環評啊政策環評啊 我聽都沒聽過只有對核電要做政策環評這就是故意讓人家難免會覺得在卡希望核電廠的演繹時程延後啊所以"},{"start":11363.006,"end":11386.655,"text":"這個經由主委的嘴巴上證實他講有講沒講其實是沒有任何意義啦我們不要這種做無謂的這種發言我是說環境部啦導致大家又認為說你們是不是在卡那我就不懂為什麼卓院長宣誓說2028最快可以重啟研議我就不懂了院長說要研議然後部長一直讓人家感覺在卡"},{"start":11387.492,"end":11414.572,"text":"那我來問一下時程啦因為卓院長是已經定一個目標啦說最快2028但實際上我們都知道他的程序大概有幾個嘛第一個台電是說明年三月經濟部已經核定了台電的計畫了嘛明年三月會送到河岸會對吧那卓院長講說大概要經過一年到一年半的審查對吧所以這樣子就到了大概最快就到2027年可能三月"},{"start":11415.578,"end":11442.989,"text":"核安會就可以核定這個再運轉的計畫沒錯吧我說最快開始審查對不對 最快嘛因為明年三月就送了嘛卓院長說要花大概一年到一年半我們看上一頁他講的一年半到兩年所以最快的話就是2027年的大概九月份2027九月份就可以審查完畢最快啦這個是卓院長定的目標啦2027的九月嘛然後再來"},{"start":11444.161,"end":11471.374,"text":"在運轉計劃核定之後經營者應該要依計劃執行執行完然後提執行結果報告然後主管機關再根據申請的檢附的文件再予以核定換發運轉執照使得莊田核子燃料那這個部分需要多久16條之二規定的這個部分需要多久審查的期限很難給個大概"},{"start":11473.321,"end":11492.746,"text":"因為誤差也可能蠻多的不是啦 你這樣子講那卓院長怎麼講得出2028這個數字那當然是理想狀況是這樣子理想狀況2028所以最快嘛那最理想狀況最理想狀況是2028應該是最快怎麼感覺好像卓院長比你還熟啊"},{"start":11494.605,"end":11510.976,"text":"怎麼卓院長都講得出一個目標然後你怎麼都講不出來主委你來這邊好像沒有很認真回答問題耶我剛剛已經幫你算了嘛你明年3月收到這個計畫卓院長說要花一年半到兩年所以最快就是2027年的9月"},{"start":11512.915,"end":11526.294,"text":"那2020年9月現在根據16條之二這個再運轉計畫核定之後他一計畫執行然後再提出執行結果報告然後換發運轉執照這個過程要多久我只問的問題這麼簡單大概多久"},{"start":11529.611,"end":11547.038,"text":"最快跟委員說明那除了再運轉計畫是明年3月台電公司會提出來那主要目的是要將電廠的設備恢復回來那另外還要根據16條16條是換照的一些安全我現在就在講16條16條這是16條之二還有一個16條16條就是台電公司"},{"start":11553.741,"end":11569.46,"text":"說明需要1.5年到2年時間會去完成那個老化評估這部分16條所以按照時程算起來就是2027年的6月或9月期間台電公司才會把16條的安全評估報告送到會裡面來審查"},{"start":11570.973,"end":11595.376,"text":"你再講一次2027的幾月大概如果照算的話2027的6月或2027的9月期間2027 6月或9月我們抓快一點了說2027 6月嘛那送來審查你們要審多久那就是按照國際的經驗就是如果文件完備然後現場設備也都OK那理想狀況應該是在2028年左右2028的什麼時候初 中 末"},{"start":11598.152,"end":11623.244,"text":"下半年比較有可能2028下半年比較有可能2028下半年比較有可能研議對…2028上面…這是最理想狀況最理想狀況你們也是這樣子建議卓榮泰院長嗎沒有…你沒建議他那他自己碰到的中間變數很多因為…那他怎麼會講出2028這個數字不是你們建議的所以我們行政院除了核安會之外還有另外一個有關核電研議審查的幕僚單位"},{"start":11627.039,"end":11628.319,"text":"這個"},{"start":11633.153,"end":11657.548,"text":"因為我們審查才知道哪些地方需要改善還有我們審查意見呢台電回復的速度等等不用一直歸納強調真我的意思是說卓院長講2028這件事情是你們跟他有分析過嗎還是你剛剛說卓院長說沒有嘛那他為什麼有這個數字"},{"start":11661.167,"end":11678.099,"text":"因為審查是在你們這邊嘛所以他這個數字是這是你們跟他講的不是你們沒有講所以他是從別人的那邊得到這個2028可能可以他自己根據經驗就對了"},{"start":11681.036,"end":11703.524,"text":"2028因為剛剛跟另外一位說的時間一樣嘛2028末嘛就是台電公司跟經濟部他們是參考國際的經驗來推估所以是台電跟經濟部跟他講的推估時程好那再來既然連院長都已經宣誓要重啟我提醒一件事情第一個"},{"start":11705.673,"end":11718.721,"text":"因為我們現在這個社會還有很多人對於核電有莫名的恐懼希望你們可以加強宣導我有去看你們的YouTube其實那個點閱率都很低還有影片是沒有點閱的這滿難想像的"},{"start":11721.222,"end":11742.008,"text":"當然你們可能會講說宣傳預算有限什麼之類可是我覺得這不是藉口因為實際上你搭配社會上面熱門話題或者是根據大家討論的事情去做出回應也可以達到宣傳作用我舉個例子來講像之前有一個民進黨的青岩才俊民進黨台北市的重要幹部他跑到蘭嶼的"},{"start":11743.68,"end":11771.134,"text":"低結核廢料的儲存場去放水放了一個晚上之後他覺得那個水很可怕被汙染然後就要求國民黨人去喝結果國民黨的人比較有核能知識就一飲而盡就那個人還嚇一跳講說怎麼可能原來可以喝喔就連執政黨的青年才俊重點培養對象都對核能有那麼錯誤的認知代表核安會根本沒有在宣導啊那個我先問主委"},{"start":11772.194,"end":11800.268,"text":"請問一下把礦泉水放到蘭嶼的低階核廢料儲存場放一個晚上那個水就不能喝了嗎就會嚴重的輻射污染嗎如果那個瓶子封閉得很好的話應該還好啦如果怎麼樣封閉 密封得很好那到底封閉得好不好蘭嶼的那個低階核廢料儲存場封閉得好不好目前來說我們是放心的你放心嘛可是民進黨不知道啊"},{"start":11801.363,"end":11823.432,"text":"民進黨不知道啊你有沒有覺得很誇張就連執政黨都不知道耶所以像這種這麼誇張的事情你們和安會出來解釋說社會大眾不要亂特別是執政黨好不好這種不要故意製造恐懼你的點閱率一定很高啦絕對很高啦但你們不做你們不做"},{"start":11824.52,"end":11851.33,"text":"所以我是提醒啦既然我們現在已經朝向要延逸重啟的方向宣傳就很重要因為到時候類似民進黨青年才俊幹的這種事情應該會層出不窮啦希望你們利用這個機會多做宣導好不好可以嗎不是謝謝我的意見啦 可不可以啦我是要求這樣子做啦因為到時候一定會遇到類似的那不然大家都每天要強迫別人喝水啊"},{"start":11852.806,"end":11869.004,"text":"這是我們一直在做的事情你就做不好啊你那時候有去跟那個民進黨的那個青年財軍說不給那個水沒問題你有做這事嗎我們會繼續努力我們繼續努力不要說空話啦這個要做啦要做啦不要講到執政黨你就不敢講了好不好謝謝謝謝韋恩好"},{"start":11874.823,"end":11893.959,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員 謝謝陳主委請回座這個其實是一個好方向 要澄清 可能要中立就對了中立就是把一些疑慮把它去除掉是非常重要的尤其是我們年輕人 需要這樣的一個重要資訊請羅廷維委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請何主委"},{"start":11904.966,"end":11931.739,"text":"請陳主委好 陳主委你好委員好主委我一直很關心河島這個河廢水啊排放的一個事情多次的跟您做這樣子的一個諮詢詢問那對於河岸會的赴日查查都很關注我們在這一次呢我有之前對於你這個大雄分析研究中心"},{"start":11932.199,"end":11961.218,"text":"做第三方的檢測單位沒有拿到iOS的一個事情也都特別的關注在這邊質疑但是我為掌握日本的排放源頭現況我想 河岸會也很積極的在10月13到18日有進行第六次的赴日實地的一個審查那我想有去做這樣子的一個觀察請問這一次赴日觀察具體參訪的哪些地點跟設施可不可以跟我們分享一下重點有哪些見了誰交換了什麼意見"},{"start":11962.619,"end":11986.333,"text":"重点是参观福岛第一核电厂还有福岛厨房中间储存设施以及JAEA大型分析研究中心以及掌握第一核电厨艺作业的安全管制的状况他见了哪些人我本人还有好几位会的同仁去参观"},{"start":11987.333,"end":12002.4,"text":"不是 我是說你見了哪些人不是說見了你日本管制機關的人長官我們都見過所以交換了哪些具體的意見還是你們只是去聽聽簡報而已"},{"start":12005.218,"end":12030.211,"text":"我們對他的整個除污過程以及除疫的過程還有我們都有詳細的了解此外我們還特地去海邊採取海選樣品回來台灣做檢測對 不好意思我是說你們有沒有交換了什麼意見得到什麼樣的資訊還是只是單純你去聽簡報當然聽簡報也會了解"},{"start":12035.114,"end":12046.49,"text":"包括像人才培育 资讯沟通等等我们都有很充分的沟通他们碰到问题在哪里我们碰到问题在哪里我们都有很好的沟通"},{"start":12047.972,"end":12066.313,"text":"主委我想你回話的時候可以再更有自信因為這樣子我想全國人民都在看我們的直播我們在這個詢問的過程當中我想有一點點支支吾吾的感覺都會讓人家覺得說到底我們花了這些錢花了這些考察那到底我們去得到了些什麼"},{"start":12066.894,"end":12084.125,"text":"我就實際問你我不刁難你或許在打詢的過程當中您不一定是可以很暢所欲言但是我想內容有沒有很實際的讓全國人民能夠來審查我想第六次的赴日實地的考察完整報告什麼時候會放在網路上"},{"start":12088.068,"end":12111.157,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在初稿已經完成那我們預計大概在這個一個月之內就可以放到網路上一個月之內是主委可以承諾一個月之內可以嗎沒有問題我們再來看實際的考察具體的內容讓全國人民來看一下另外第二個跟你請問河山重啟的案件經濟部11月28號宣布"},{"start":12112.057,"end":12135.649,"text":"以通過台電提交的這個相關核電廠的現況評估報告並確認核二核三有可以再啟動的一個潛力台電預告將於2026年3月我想這個大家都知道今天都談了一整天了大家都很關心那核安會準備好了嗎準備接他的這個相關的評估報告來啟動核安會的程序了嗎"},{"start":12136.895,"end":12162.886,"text":"可能會一直職責就一定會接受這個報告我當然知道你一定會接受你準備好了我想12月初經濟部龔明星部長在答詢的時候有指稱國際案例都在講國際案例就像你剛剛講的卓榮泰院長可能也是用國際案例去做評估審查約一年半最順利的情況是在2028年可能重啟剛剛你說2028的年終對不對"},{"start":12166.664,"end":12193.359,"text":"下半年下半年好啦年終跟下半年啦好在這一波的對外溝通中我想核安會是最重要的一個審查機關但是呢好像只要我們的政府啊照程序來走就一定會通過整個社會的氛圍就好像是2028一定會重啟啊諸位你認同經濟部對外表示最順利的情況2028就一定會重啟的說法嗎"},{"start":12196.667,"end":12200.297,"text":"我們核安會一定會嚴格把關依照國際標準我當然知道你會嚴格"},{"start":12201.643,"end":12230.201,"text":"时程上我们很难给一个确定的日期但我认为经济部还有现在卓荣泰院长用所谓的国际惯例来做一个评估对外去做一个宣言如果台电的报告做得很完整我们审查意见他很快能够回复现场的设施管理得很好等等先决条件之下那可能就很顺利我认为不妥啦"},{"start":12230.421,"end":12253.753,"text":"因為核安會是最重要的審查機關沒有去會同你們的意見就對外不斷的放聲好像讓整個社會氛圍都知道2028一定會重啟我覺得這個是不夠謹慎我覺得核安最重要的是什麼安全至上這才是國人期待的那現在我們針對整個核二核三的再運轉計畫我們看到10日"},{"start":12258.058,"end":12276.26,"text":"環境部彭啟明部長表態了直接點名核安會他說核電重啟一環評法規定確實無需環評但希望核安會擔負更多的責任環境部也會從環境的角度督促核安會做相關的環境保護的因素納入審查"},{"start":12277.381,"end":12297.566,"text":"主委一個部會的首長直接公開點名另外一個部會要他多負點責任還說要督促和安會來做相關環境保護的因素納入審查我們看到這種行為在整個我們的體系行政體系來說很罕見主委有沒有要回應一下"},{"start":12299.107,"end":12321.715,"text":"我觉得环境保护本来就是核安会很重要的责任辐射对环境影响评估这是核安会必须负起的责任也是唯一要负起的单位其他方面的环境影响我们会和环境部做沟通协调"},{"start":12323.27,"end":12340.583,"text":"彭部長提出意見我們當然是很感謝他的意見我相信你一定會做就你自己的工作去百分百的努力但是很罕見的竟然會被點名那我想會不會彭啟民部長的這個發言會影響到河安會的這個獨立性"},{"start":12342.882,"end":12362.382,"text":"我覺得還好啦我沒有這個感覺啦我想彭啟明部長更直言核電的重啟關鍵是核廢料的處理跟核安的檢查這也是核安必須直接面對的問題我想對於彭部長現在所談的核廢料處理跟核安的檢查核安會的因應對策是什麼"},{"start":12366.1,"end":12374.198,"text":"跟委員說明那有關於核安這部分我們就是比照國際的做法就是美國的做法來進行一些安全的評估"},{"start":12374.778,"end":12402.145,"text":"那至於核廢料這部分我們還是要參考國際的做法現階段就是要進行乾燥設施的興建跟乾燥來處理那後續就是最終處置的話就是目前經濟部有專案的辦公室來推動最終處置這部分好 那剛剛您所說的不管是我們現在所面臨到核廢料的處理跟核安的檢查那請問一下你覺得環境部在這個過程中他可以扮演什麼角色你們怎麼合作"},{"start":12406.527,"end":12407.768,"text":"我看你們再協調一下好了難得你被點名"},{"start":12431.941,"end":12455.048,"text":"這個部分我是覺得很詫異啊怎麼會由他來督促你們啊這本來就是你應該核安核廢料就是你要做的啊我想倡議核綠共存的這一個核碩董事長啊童子賢也最近有表示啊台灣在經濟發展同時需要能源但台灣不生產能源因此能源的選項顯得非常重要有人說台灣地球人俠"},{"start":12455.888,"end":12475.792,"text":"不適合核能但他認為不妨參考比利時跟瑞士對能源的一個選擇歐盟就以實際的行動實現了核綠共存核綠共存可以在支持台灣經濟發展和民生需求的電力同時也改善空汙的一個影響諸位你知不支持核綠共存"},{"start":12478.355,"end":12495.721,"text":"核安會的職責就是保證核電能夠安全運轉我知道 這個我都知道你講的已經三次了至於核能源的政策或能源配比的問題這個不在核安會管制之下"},{"start":12496.961,"end":12514.672,"text":"這應該我們可以尊重經濟部的意見好 謝謝 我也不再多做逼問了最後一分鐘 拜託一下 趙偉主委 我昨天 外環委員會排審身心障礙者權益保障法條文修正草案"},{"start":12515.592,"end":12534.697,"text":"有幾個問題跟你就教一下也安排了身心障礙者權益保障的專案報告我們看到身心障礙者的權益保障法有規定各級目的事業主管機關辦理公共資訊無障礙的一個服務的時候要協助身心障礙者來參與"},{"start":12537.506,"end":12556.435,"text":"主委 河岸會有一個APP叫河岸一點通 對吧要換你了啦 剛剛只是前言而已這個APP作為民眾了解河能安全緊急應變資訊的重要管道請問其公共資訊無障礙化的具體辦理進度如何"},{"start":12559.28,"end":12585.429,"text":"謝謝委員跟委員報告那我們也是遵照速發部推動的普及與深化政府網站與行動化應用軟體無障礙設計行動方案來辦理然後依照我們原來的這個排程我們會預計在115年年底前會完成整個無障礙的送檢那目前我們在明年的預算以及時程規劃上都已經做好準備以上"},{"start":12586.149,"end":12600.417,"text":"我想速度要快這今天在這邊點一下身心障礙者數位參與是所謂的法律明文保障剛剛葉委員就在講我們的這個和安宣導身心障礙者也有權利去參與到這些"},{"start":12602.398,"end":12625.09,"text":"但是他們在這個河岸一點通裡面就沒辦法去點閱甚至沒有無障礙的這個APP對他們來說這就是一個資訊的剝奪嘛所以主委今天我在這邊提出也希望督促你們應該就你們的APP來做一個有效率的趕緊趕上 可以嗎可以 謝謝委員的意見好 謝謝謝謝羅廷維委員請行政官員回座"},{"start":12635.976,"end":12637.977,"text":"現在請翁曉琳委員質詢時間4分鐘好謝謝有請主委有請陳主委"},{"start":12654.344,"end":12677.126,"text":"好 陳柱惟好我想賴總統其實在很多場合裡面都有提到他不反對核電那麼也認為說接下來我們可能要發展的是先進核能技術或是新式的核能技術請問賴總統隨便你所講的不管是新興核能 先進核能或是新式核能技術到底是指什麼"},{"start":12682.755,"end":12707.612,"text":"小型模组化核电厂是其中之一SMR还有核融核也是另外一个项目现在还有一些MMR微型反应器所以现在台湾我们主要的目标是想要推动什么SMR吗"},{"start":12708.683,"end":12734.484,"text":"目前我們對於未來是重點會在SMR的研究在研究本身要提醒的就是說因為我今天看到你們報告還在那裡講說SMR這個未來可能幾年都還不可能會有商轉但事實上我不知道主委知不知道其實中國大陸他們大概明年就會有一個小的這個SMR的廠預計會完工商轉"},{"start":12736.145,"end":12754.994,"text":"2026年那其他国家包含像英国等等最近的新闻也都说他们就开始在建厂在准备往这边做预估也是两三年就可能会完成会进行商转背景SM2的它的整个的"},{"start":12755.994,"end":12774.114,"text":"建制还有它的运作开始运作等等的这些条件比要建这个大型核电厂要相对来说可能容易一些所以就目前何安慧这边有没有预估假设我们有厂商愿意要做的话最快几年之内就可以做到"},{"start":12777.834,"end":12806.715,"text":"報告委員像中國發展的是高溫氣能堆它製造的核廢料是13倍現在的所以這個應該不在我們選擇考量的範圍內那依照目前西方世界SMR的進程應該是4年到5年2030年左右才有真正商品化的產品出來它第一個要安全也要考慮第二個它要模組化所以應該是4到5年2030年左右才會有真正的"},{"start":12806.995,"end":12834.473,"text":"那不管是四到五年或是我讲说可能更快也许明年最快明年可能或者是二三年重要的是说我们现在我们的这个核安会对于SM2的这个基础的定调还有就是说我们相关的法规准备好了吗我们现在的法规有提供足够的法律基础可以让一般的私人厂私人一般的企业自己去兴建SM2吗"},{"start":12836.209,"end":12853.684,"text":"我們的定業法現在是規定是核電廠業有供應但由主管特許之下可以有例外這是我們現在定業法裡面的所以你的意思是說定業法完全不需要修正只要主管機關特許就可以了嗎"},{"start":12856.333,"end":12883.208,"text":"跟委員說明那電業法第五條裡面是有寫到如果是私人要提出設置核電廠的話要由那個主管機關就是經濟部這部分要來同意其實不管那核安會的話就是如果要申請就是新的核能就是SMR這部分的核電廠的話那如果是清水式的"},{"start":12884.731,"end":12909.281,"text":"核設施那目前的核管法是可以因應適用的但是就剛才提到因為新型的話可能目前還在發展當中所以我們還會持續去關注整個發展的狀態跟法規的動態好 本席想要講的未來推動這SM2可能非常有就是會由台電以外的其他一些公司來進行建置甚至來維運"},{"start":12912.262,"end":12928.48,"text":"那么所以在法规上面来说以我们现在电业法来讲基本上都是指的是大型的核电厂所以是以供应为准嘛那你如果说你说例外还要经过电业管制机关经过核安会还是经过经济部应该可能不是经过核安会而是经过经济部"},{"start":12929.401,"end":12954.548,"text":"核准设置对这应该不是属于核安会那这个部分会不会也会产生问题而且我们不管在环境评估环境评估相关法规等等是不是应该要赶快要做法治上面的准备甚至你核安会都要提案我不知道主委知不知道我有提电验法的修正案我知道针对小型的SMR嘛"},{"start":12955.956,"end":12985.268,"text":"就30万以下的核能发电业者那么未来他基本上可能只要经过申请许可经过核安会那边同意就可以了这样才能够松绑现在我们就大家希望说未来如果说新建小型的核发电厂可以由一般的企业自己他们有能力筹资可以去做这样就不会一直把负担都是放在台电的身上这样的方式会不会更好"},{"start":12987.268,"end":13007.49,"text":"跟委員說明電業法第五條是應該是規範要設置核電廠的經營者核安委的角度就是說如果已經經過經濟部同意之後向核安委申請建廠執照後續的運轉維護管理這部分那就是由核安委那另外環比這部分就回到"},{"start":13008.294,"end":13031.063,"text":"那個環境主管機關去了是 本期今天是要提醒你們的就是說因為看起來現在賴總統的這個方向就是要去推動新興的核能也許就是SMR然後你們自己現在核安會裡面這今年度所提的下年度的研究計畫裡面也是編了一億的計畫要去做相關的研究雖然說本期認為說這一億計畫的經費好像是過高"},{"start":13033.584,"end":13060.014,"text":"也就是一些paperwork的一些整理啊然後你們也沒有說要實際上要設置一個實驗型的小型的SMR的這個爐或什麼之類的那為什麼要這麼多的錢這當然是等到審預算的時候再來說可是呢本希望說和安會也許在法治作業上面可以加緊速度不要永遠都是法律跟在技術的後面如果說我們已經預見到未來台灣可能會朝這方面去做的話"},{"start":13060.894,"end":13084.805,"text":"不管是海岸的管制的相關法規或是環評等等都要啟動嘛我不能夠說等到事情發生了人家都要見了然後才發現沒有法律可以用所以可以請海岸會這裡也可以做一個相關的這個研究計劃嗎就是一個委託研究計劃類似把小型SNR所需要的法規評估都做"},{"start":13086.718,"end":13115.34,"text":"做一些研究或是說你們自己內部也可以做也不見得非得一定要提供一些委託研究計畫我們在明年會規劃外界的委託案學校方面好 我希望就除了說是委託研究計畫案之外另外你們自己內部也要盡速地把不管是大型小型的核電廠所需要的法規基礎都能夠先整理出來要stand by隨時要用的時候就可以上手"},{"start":13116.201,"end":13137.084,"text":"好 但就是今天我想主要就是提醒主委这个议题好 谢谢谢谢委员谢谢翁晓琳委员质询 官员请回座现在请钟嘉斌委员质询钟嘉斌委员钟嘉斌委员不在"},{"start":13139.284,"end":13153.929,"text":"今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另有林沛翔 鍾嘉斌 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李順寶副審計長 行政院主計總署副主計長 陳慧娟副主計長還有我們 其他我就沒有了 我就代表性的了我們立法院副秘書長 張榮裕副秘書長 張裕隆 不好意思 您比較久來 所以黏著了"},{"start":2067.342,"end":2092.888,"text":"還有其餘未及介紹的列席代表就請參閱名單我們就不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次的議場我們分別排定專題報告就800萬的助理費變成小金庫立法院組織法恐懲自肥法案以及審查委員習志杰等23年你具立法院公費助理任用"},{"start":2094.248,"end":2112.949,"text":"任用法草案會議進行巡曆才一併報告綜合詢答那我們現在來進行提案說明及報告先進行討論事項提案說明發言人三分鐘請提案人徐委員這節來進行提案說明"},{"start":2125.467,"end":2140.517,"text":"主席大家好今天周旺來秘書長怎麼沒有來今天審法案照理長秘書長應該要到的所以我們要公開的譴責一下為什麼不敢來"},{"start":2142.967,"end":2164.173,"text":"好 這個案子其實是蠻沉重的就是未來最重要的方向 傅坤祺所說的法案什麼叫進步法案事實上我提的這個案子才是進步法案我們要如何讓我們的助理法治化然後就是希望說"},{"start":2165.785,"end":2190.406,"text":"助理是我們的夥伴我們的家人那更是推動台灣民主政治國會意識運作相當重要的一環那在很久以前我就提出立法院公費助理任用法就是為了提升助理薪資待遇保障助理的工作權益同時加上責任跟義務包括利益迴避保密規範滲透間諜等"},{"start":2193.892,"end":2219.252,"text":"就是為了更符合社會的期待今天現場不論有藍綠白許多助理都非常反對這樣子一個自肥的法案那還有很多沒有到場的敢怒不敢言今天也謝謝莊瑞雄召委排審讓助理的權益再度受到重視我們立法院這個代表民意捍衛正義的最高殿堂"},{"start":2221.158,"end":2243.692,"text":"應該不是自匪跟喬助理費的爭議場所那國民黨的這個立法 這個提案呢要讓助理費除罪化那讓每年數百萬的公帑變成可以免檢據核銷統籌應用的小金庫這個不是國會改革 這是國會沉淪"},{"start":2246.076,"end":2273.007,"text":"我們希望說這個的重點將來這個重點其實有三個第一個就是提供薪資標準鼓勵人才久任第二個明確法律定位保障助理權益第三強化倫理規範公開透明防弊我們希望說跟助理站在一起不要把助理當奴工而是當夥伴然後把公款公用讓他公開透明"},{"start":2274.395,"end":2300.965,"text":"那當然這個是未來最進步的方向應該是朝這個方向去走那國民黨現在這個案子呢其實是退步的法案那當然我想我們也可以考慮到國民黨為什麼他會提這個法案他想說有以前很多的助理廢 那因為有爭議現在有些人在監獄裡面關有些人案子在審理當中那我是這樣子建議啦 事實上"},{"start":2301.71,"end":2330.256,"text":"助理如果是這些助理會以前其實有很多認識不清啦那或者說有一些虛報或者是就是用不同的人頭不管他怎麼報只要他沒有中保私囊是不是有機會就是認錯檢討改進還錢沒有犯意請求輕判讓他們有緩刑的機會我是覺得這個是司法的部分那當然就是司法的部分歸司法我們不能去干涉"},{"start":2331.016,"end":2355.502,"text":"但是如果有一些並不是本來就有犯意本來就沒有中保私囊那這樣子的人這樣子的一個名利代表有沒有讓他認錯我剛提過認錯檢討改進還錢沒有犯意請求輕判讓他們有緩刑的機會現在有很多的案例我們看得到的就是包括以前的潘懷中"},{"start":2357.899,"end":2381.012,"text":"還有現在的黃少庭像這樣子的機會其實有很多目前因為他們就是還在審理當中有沒有這種機會我是希望說在法官也可以用這樣子的角度來斟酌很多人並不是真的本來就有嚴格的犯意當然你有犯意被關的那個就是"},{"start":2382.132,"end":2405.385,"text":"應該的嘛那你如果沒有範例備官其實這個部分我是覺得大家有一個思考的空間那以上就是說就以前跟以後以前我認為應該用這個角度來處理有關於助理費爭議的問題以後應該是朝我現在講的我自己的提案就是公費助理任用法這樣子才是一個進步的方向請大家斟酌 謝謝"},{"start":2407.045,"end":2417.283,"text":"好 謝謝 我們接著請機關代表報告 每位發言時間3分鐘先請法務部法制司 洪嘉雲 洪市長"},{"start":2424.405,"end":2440.917,"text":"主席 各位委員今天奉邀列席司法法治委員會請代表法務部報告說明如下首先針對專題報告部分針對專題報告的部分有兩點第一點是不論立法院的組織法是否修法"},{"start":2441.477,"end":2462.233,"text":"那助理費的資金來源仍然屬於公帑而對於任何公職人員來說公款公用都是很重要的準則帕因助理費的性質變更對此產生疑議甚至是否有深除罪化效果的質疑此攸關公共利益及廉政的要求建請能夠廣納各方的意見審慎的來研議"},{"start":2464.375,"end":2474.742,"text":"那第二點是司法院4至499號解釋理由中有接觸利益迴避是任何公職人員行使職權均應遵守的原則"},{"start":2475.868,"end":2494.479,"text":"那憲法徵修條文第八條也有規定立法委員之報酬或待遇應以法律定之除年度通案調整者外單獨增加報酬或待遇之規定應自次屆起實施這主要就是為了避免就是招人質疑那"},{"start":2495.459,"end":2520.329,"text":"司法院的一個釋字解釋針對現在陳委員等28人有提出的立法院組織法第32條33、35條的條文修正草案它其中的規定有將國會助理費的一個性質定義行為對於委員的補助款並改為由立法院撥與立法委員統籌運用免檢據核銷"},{"start":2524.076,"end":2540.451,"text":"立法委員統籌運用的項目也不再設限於助理費助理實施健康檢查費用文康費用或其他依勞動基準法等規定應由雇主負擔之相關費用及辦公室務費用"},{"start":2542.608,"end":2558.762,"text":"那從上該的性質改變我們可以看出來事實上已增加立法委員的實質收入那所以是不是應該依照剛剛所接觸的司法院的一個釋字解釋以及憲法徵修條文的這樣的一個規定意旨"},{"start":2560.261,"end":2576.019,"text":"然後次借起實施 建請一併審酌那麼第二點是針對剛剛徐委員所提出的立法院公費助理任用罰草案說明第一個部分是針對草案第三條第一款的部分"},{"start":2577.2,"end":2591.597,"text":"它里头的规定是说本法所定的名词定义如下立法院公费助理但是在法治上头来讲它后面并没有相关文字的一个定义说明那么第二点的话是针对草案的第11条第二项"},{"start":2592.318,"end":2610.355,"text":"他主要是根據就是說有關於公費助理用利用權利公款或公務上之秘密消息而圖利者依刑法第131條的規定情節重大準用134條的規定處斷那麼這邊有兩個說明第一個是按照刑法134條"},{"start":2613.07,"end":2632.386,"text":"不好意思 謝謝按照刑法134條的規定的話他是說公務員假借職務上之權利機會或方法以故意犯本章以外之各罪者那很顯而易見的是131條就是所謂賭職罪章中的罪所以131跟134條其實它有這樣的一個關係是不是這個時候還能夠再去說"},{"start":2636.75,"end":2656.357,"text":"做適用或准用134條是有一些疑義那第二個所謂的准用來講的話它是指某事項的一個法規與性質上不相抵觸的範圍內適用其他事項之外意思就是說它不是完全的適用所援引的法規它是性質上相當的部分允許"},{"start":2656.997,"end":2671.474,"text":"那所以實得為之那基於罪行法定原則啦那如果這個是試射到罪行的處罰的話原則上都要求要明確化那這個時候是不是以用準用的方式的立法方式為之"},{"start":2672.415,"end":2697.435,"text":"那至於其他提案的部分是也因為時間是涉到公費助理聘僱 遴選相關資訊公開透明助理費額度的一個調整機制還有資深助理資格等等這些部分本部都尊重委員的職權行使以及大院的審議結果 謝謝好 謝謝等一下還有機會補充說明接下來請審計部副審計長李順寶副審計長"},{"start":2705.242,"end":2719.749,"text":"主席 國務委員 女士先生審計部應邀列席國務委員會專題報告自感榮幸檢討報告如下有關大院公費助理預算的編列跟執行情形"},{"start":2720.689,"end":2745.311,"text":"依據大院114年度的單位預算是在這個工作計劃公費助理向下編列人事費有8億5000萬餘元另外業務費部分是360萬366萬餘元截至114年10月底子公費助理項目的預算支應結果實現率大概是95%"},{"start":2747.338,"end":2768.024,"text":"另外在有關審計的實務部分審計部執行審計工作都是以相關的法律還有法定預算及機關訂定的各項規定等作為審核的準據至於相關支出憑證的審核主要是依據行政院主義總署訂定的政務支出憑證處理要點規定"},{"start":2769.864,"end":2788.28,"text":"那一該要點第三點規定各機關的員工申請支付款項因本誠信原則對所提出的支出憑證的支付事實真實性負責不實則應負相關責任最後報告結語依據大院的組織法規定還有"},{"start":2791.623,"end":2806.525,"text":"114年度法定預算跟大院訂定的公費助理實施健康檢查補助要點等規定公費助理的酬金獎金經過照冊撥給直接撥給助理加班費是依加班清澈核實撥款"},{"start":2807.586,"end":2829.484,"text":"健康檢查費也是每人每年在上限4500元的情況之下檢附相關醫療機構的單據來核銷那唐大院的組織法跟公費助理有關的條文經過修正公佈那本部當局來辦理相關的審核事宜以上報告 敬請主席 各位委員 女士先生指教 謝謝"},{"start":2831.96,"end":2838.752,"text":"好 謝謝副審計長接下來請行政院主計總署副主計長陳慧娟副主計長"},{"start":2842.833,"end":2871.472,"text":"主席 各位委員 理事先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就公費助理的議題提出報告簡要的說明如下首先立法委員公費助理制度是基於立法院組織法所設計提供必要的人力跟資源協助委員行使職權提升問政品質所以目前"},{"start":2872.973,"end":2899.767,"text":"我們所了解公費助理核銷的方式在人事費方面有關公費助理的薪資年終獎金加班費每年系依照立委的人數跟立委黨團協商結論有關立委及黨團助理薪資加班費等上限以及年終獎金按1.5個月的薪資來編列並按助理名冊核銷"},{"start":2902.308,"end":2930.166,"text":"退休準備金跟勞健保則依公費助理人數跟勞動基準法等規定編列預算並按助理名冊核銷在業務費方面文康活動費按照公費助理人數及人事總署所定文康活動實質要點還有本總署所定共同性費用編列的基準表每人每年"},{"start":2931.146,"end":2947.816,"text":"兩三千元來編列並檢據核銷在健康檢查費方面是按照研究公費助理每人兩年一次以及立法院鎖定公費助理實施健康檢查補助要點"},{"start":2948.777,"end":2963.319,"text":"補助基準每人每年4500元編列並減拒核銷三 我們就內部審核相關的規範說明政府各項經費支出的財源均屬公款"},{"start":2963.72,"end":2988.863,"text":"必須依預算所定用途來執行所以必須取得合乎用途的憑證然後對於這個支付事實要來負責不實的要負相關責任尚無任何的例外最後不管我們認為相關法案的修改或增列我們都必須確保公款的妥善運用以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":2993.012,"end":3019.51,"text":"謝謝副主席長接下來我們要請立法院來做報告我手上這邊我們周萬來秘書長今天請假請假條在我手上這個也是按照整個議事規則本來就可以做這樣的一個處理但是比較可惜今天本來就是整個法案的一個負責就是我們立法院"},{"start":3022.271,"end":3038.636,"text":"秘書長今天在草野協商 是不是那就很可惜了 安排得很巧妙本來草野協商都是在下午進行今天這個案子 就你來說吧算你這樣可以附加有功來 立法院副秘書長張玉榮副秘書長來做報告"},{"start":3044.956,"end":3065.191,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好那周秘書長因為客政參加黨團協商由我副秘書長來帶領那今日奉邀列席貴委員會全體委員會議深感榮幸針對今日的議程所列的立法院公費助理任用法草案的意見說明如次敬請委員參考為輔助立法委員專業問政"},{"start":3067.083,"end":3090.851,"text":"處理行政書及選民服務立法院於民國74年經過院會決議增列政府公費補助每位委員助理研究補助費每月新台幣15000元系公費補助立法委員研究之用彌補委員財力不足且依立法院組織法第32條第一項規定立法委員每人得至公費助理8人至14人由委員聘用"},{"start":3091.491,"end":3115.519,"text":"立法院應每年編列每一立法委員一定數額之助理費及其辦公事務預算公費助理與委員同進退其一勞動基準法所規定之相關費用均由立法院編列預算之應之準此公費助理聘用的主體為立法委員以及委員與助理間的關係是聘僱契約關係之雙方當事人"},{"start":3118.18,"end":3135.93,"text":"立法院依規定僅負編列預算與撥款職責居於協助行政作業的角色而非聘用助理的主體因此有關公費助理的臨聘解聘聘用資格薪資工作內容差勤管理及各項人事管理等均屬雇主"},{"start":3137.082,"end":3165.893,"text":"及委員的權責立法院僅依各委員辦公室提供委員親自簽名的聘書及聆聘異動表等資料代為辦理其所屬公費助理薪資合撥與勞健保加退保等相關的事宜至於本次貴委員會所排許委員所提的提案涉及黨團及委員聘任公費助理相關的內容基於行政幕僚的立場尊重委員合意的決定以上報告敬請指教謝謝"},{"start":3169.827,"end":3177.81,"text":"好 謝謝副秘書長那其餘提出書面報告機關有沒有口頭的補充全序部沒有內政部也沒有外交部還有勞動部大陸委員會沒有行政院人事行政總署也沒有國家安全局個人資料保護委員會籌備處"},{"start":3200.41,"end":3228.285,"text":"如果沒有補充報告那我們機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始來進行詢答那本委員會詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間5分鐘並不再延長了那我們上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在請登記第一位王國昌委員來做詢答"},{"start":3236.754,"end":3245.461,"text":"來 謝謝主席麻煩有請法務部法治司司長審計部副審計長以及立法院的副秘書長來 請機關代表三位好 時間的關係不宜問候透過法律的修法為個案解套或免除刑事責任"},{"start":3262.833,"end":3281.489,"text":"在我國憲政史上最有名的是2013年5月31號會計法的修正那次的修正在院會裡面沒有經過任何討論四個黨團的黨鞭在一場後面的小會議室簽了黨團協商結論5月31號夜黑風高三讀通過"},{"start":3291.176,"end":3317.902,"text":"結果引發社會軒然大波當時馬英九總統出面道歉民主進步黨黨主席蘇貞昌出面道歉江宜樺提出復議立法院不經過邀請行政院院長直接復議通過推翻原決議我想這在憲政史上史跡斑斑"},{"start":3319.568,"end":3343.854,"text":"那一次整個公民社會也上了一課再一次針對有關於國會助理費的法制化開始出現了這樣的法制化 制度化是不是在幫個案修法解套的質疑這樣的質疑當然有討論的必要"},{"start":3345.29,"end":3370.448,"text":"公費公用公費公用剛剛法務部說得非常的好這是一個沒有辦法退的底線同時如果就跟自己職權相關的到下一屆才開始適用在憲政上面也是一個合一的作為但我現在看不懂我為什麼看不懂我離開立法院2020年離開"},{"start":3373.069,"end":3399.222,"text":"我最關心的一件事情是國務機要費修法的處罪化那時候我回到公民社會作為一個公民我眼睜睜的看著立法院在2022年為個案推動修法我看了今天法務部的書面報告寫的是直立有聲當年法務部對於這件事情卻是勁若寒蟬"},{"start":3400.573,"end":3411.188,"text":"當年的法務部當年是怎麼講的對於國務機要費將來是否修法除罪化本部尊重主管機關及大院職權這是當年"},{"start":3413.599,"end":3441.172,"text":"這是當年國務紀要費修法的時候法務部所表達的見解今天只有司長來我其實不想為難司長因為內容寫成這個樣子一定是當初部長的指示一定是當初部長的指示我只希望法務部回去看一看你們今天在書面文字上面所表達的態度跟當年所表達的態度標準一致嗎"},{"start":3446.545,"end":3457.61,"text":"市長如果不便回答就說不便回答我說了我不會為難你這一定是部長的決定當年這樣的法務部靜若寒蟬法務部有什麼想說的嗎"},{"start":3459.293,"end":3484.606,"text":"我想法務部這邊來講都是基於各部會分工來講的話都是尊重主管機關以及立法院的一個職權行使我想這樣的立場今天也沒有改變但是當然針對這件事情來講應該認真的去探究它在整個法評價上頭的意義意涵沒關係啦 說到這個地方我覺得也夠了我不為難你接下來請立法院"},{"start":3487.225,"end":3505.89,"text":"當初啦 在這個修法的過程當中啊因為爭議很大嘛所以啊 國務及要費的除罪化我們來回顧一下當年立法的討論一片空白第一個在委員會報告詢答的時候民主進步黨提案停止詢答沒有詢答在委員會大體討論的時候沒有大體討論"},{"start":3514.656,"end":3537.529,"text":"在委員會逐條討論的時候 民進黨提案停止討論全案保留送院會 9點開會 9點14分上會在委員會一片空白黨團協商的時候 也沒有進行黨團協商召開黨團協商 人沒有到齊嘛人沒有到齊 就送院會處理"},{"start":3539.013,"end":3568.072,"text":"上院會的時候沒有經過廣泛討論也沒有經過逐條討論會計法99條之一國務計要費的除罪化立法討論一片空白從委員會到黨團協商到院會沒有討論完全不用討論完全不用討論不是沒有討論沒有民主嗎還是特定的案件"},{"start":3569.386,"end":3574.447,"text":"只要符合民進黨的利益不用討論 為什麼要討論除罪話除罪話沒有討論立法討論一片空白民進黨狹人數優勢國務機要費正式除罪話這不是我講的這個是新聞媒體下的標"},{"start":3595.539,"end":3623.542,"text":"這是新聞媒體下的標過去的這段歷史我們來看看對現在立法院的運作對現在立法院的運作過去黨團協商黨團協商有委員會召集協商的時候人沒有到齊或沒有共識2016年5月3號蘇嘉全就宣告發出協商會議通知而黨團未出席會議及"},{"start":3625.854,"end":3650.126,"text":"未達成共識一個月內只要發過一次通知無協商共識及無法達成共識所以怎麼樣所以那個時候在主持院會的蔡啟昌才宣告報告院會協商已於一個月無法達成共識依照立法院職權刑事法71條之一的規定有院會定期處理所以我要再確認一下在我們的立法院"},{"start":3652.443,"end":3678.751,"text":"針對立法院職權行使法的解釋也好議事的先例也好委員會有召集協商沒有辦法達成共識本來就可以送院會處理我從過去到現在我的一直理解是如此我看議事先例也是如此但是最近好像開始又變了是不經過院長協商不能處理如果不經過院長協商要處理的話就要打架 就要杯葛"},{"start":3680.035,"end":3698.596,"text":"這個是我們的議事規則嗎來麻煩請副秘書長幫大家示意一下謝謝委員那相關的議事規則我想都非常有明文規定啦那至於說怎麼樣子的會議程序基於國會治理原則我想尊重委員的一個行使方式"},{"start":3699.844,"end":3725.838,"text":"OK 你也是回答得很藝術啦不要進入比較深水區黨派跟黨派彼此之間黨團跟黨團彼此之間不同的看法我尊重啦但是我想藉由這個機會把議事的潛力把它說明清楚也有助於國人瞭解本來就是嘛交協商委員會開了協商沒有辦法達成共識就送院會處理"},{"start":3727.321,"end":3738.664,"text":"如果非要院長協商不可的話那知識體大那院長如果沒有時間公務繁忙那整個法案不就塞車了嗎來 接下來有請副審計長委員好副審計長好有一個案子我非常的關切這已經是違法濫權貪污腐敗 莫此為勝"},{"start":3754.659,"end":3775.105,"text":"我們的速發部全額補助大同醫護取得資安院的標案違法履約驗收不實之前我在交通委員會質詢資安院的院長質詢速發部的部長莫名其妙拿舊的東西來結果可以出假的新品證明書拿中國製的網通產品結果可以驗收通過驗收不實"},{"start":3784.708,"end":3808.928,"text":"從頭到尾包庇放水想要蒙混過關這件事情我總共質詢了三次我總共質詢了三次事情非常的嚴重但是我是不知道我們的訴發部跟資安院是官官相護彼此包庇上下交香賊混了半天內部還在討論"},{"start":3811.107,"end":3831.197,"text":"到底要怎麼處理最近好像有一些結果快要出來了但我要真正認真的問是說他們也知道審計部在這件事情做了審計那審計他們回覆目前審計部是他們有照實回覆還是想要用混的因為我還沒有機會問審計部這個問題啊藉由今天質詢的機會麻煩副審計長跟大家說明一下"},{"start":3838.234,"end":3853.283,"text":"這個案子我們實際在查核的時候有發現就是資安院他沒有落實履約管理所以才有剛剛委員所提到的就是有廠商用不實或不符契約的設備來履約"},{"start":3854.784,"end":3880.063,"text":"那另外有廠商繳交的不實文件而且那個也超於這個原來契約規定的這個時間而且沒有依照規定檢討來刊登政府財務公報那目前我們已經要求他來做相關的什麼時候要求的我們大概詳細的時間應該蠻早的因為我們原來委員在質詢的時候我們就已經有列管這個案子"},{"start":3880.603,"end":3900.409,"text":"列管到什麼時候我現在雞皮皮啊我質詢完開完記者會洪祈昌開記者會所以我指控不實啊我聽的是完全聽不懂啊完全聽不懂啊我講的連訴發部都承認連資安院都承認"},{"start":3901.755,"end":3928.98,"text":"然後還厚著臉皮 發說我指控不實那今天審計部在這邊按照審計調查的結果又再次的印證就是拿不實的東西來混嘛納稅人的錢 納稅人的錢拿不實的東西來混結果我們的訴發部 我們的資安院混到現在不想要包庇到什麼時候拜託審計部好好"},{"start":3931.019,"end":3957.342,"text":"這件事情一定要追到底啊審計部列管到什麼時候跟委員報告就是最近我們在10月1號的時候有我們有特別另外在喊請這個治安院要檢討改善並且要查處相關人員的他回復了沒有委屈責任那數化部在那個12月他有申復目前他申復喔不服喔覺得他做得很對喔"},{"start":3958.382,"end":3980.618,"text":"跟委員報告目前速發部的答覆是啟動採購法廠商停權跟治安院人員的責任檢討那這個目前至於有一些部分涉及廠商有刑責的部分他也已給調查單位在偵辦中那個速發部回來給你們的方面提供給我嗎我們可以整理一下文件跟委員書面報告好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":3984.292,"end":3988.135,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員 接下來請王逸川委員尋答好 謝謝主席 我們請立法院副秘書長跟勞動部的同仁 謝謝"},{"start":4012.844,"end":4015.865,"text":"副秘書長還有勞動部專委李專委副秘書長好委員好請問一下這個最近陳玉珍等28名委員的提案你有看過嗎大概有看了一下好那這個提案跟"},{"start":4035.302,"end":4043.109,"text":"115年116年2026年立法院的預算書的內容那有沒有要調整如果必要的時候我們的內容可能會做調整好 那這個立委的這個公費助理的酬金你們這個編這個酬金的當時的目的是什麼"},{"start":4060.214,"end":4086.615,"text":"這個部分是協助公費助理是一個非常重要的一個協助委員的職務所以委員行使法定職權的時候助理都可以協助他好那如果這個助理的酬金直接由委員來統籌運用那按照陳玉珍委員的提案那個有沒有規定立委一定要聘公費助理"},{"start":4089.519,"end":4114.438,"text":"我想這個部分經過討論如果說這個法已經三讀通過了那我們會按照這個法的規定來處理他就寫若干人 因為要你們 換你們執行這個部分應該是比較初步的一個抽象的規定那可能還有一個具體的一個如果答案就是若干人 沒有改"},{"start":4116.482,"end":4136.822,"text":"如果這是一個法定強制的一個要求的話我想每一個委員的一個聘用的部分我們行政財務部好 那他就是有可能聘凌人嗎那聘凌人跟你們送到這個立法院來進行審議的預算就有衝突了"},{"start":4137.847,"end":4161.892,"text":"因為當時你們比如說115年邊市用113個立委每個立委8至14人的公費助理相關的費用總共大概一年8億8千多萬 沒有錯如果這個立委都不聘助理了這些錢都按照陳毓貞的版本他都不聘助理了那就跟你們送進來的預算的內容已經完全不一樣了 怎麼辦"},{"start":4163.427,"end":4191.346,"text":"我剛才跟委員報告過了如果說法通過以後有必要的時候我們那個預算的編列當然會做相應的調整好 那他不聘助理你們要撥錢嗎至於說如果說法通過他的一個前提是聘用若干人的話那這個若干人到底有沒有包含零人這個部分我想是有一個解釋的空間那裡面的原來編的預算的8億8千多萬這個數字是用8到14人估的啊"},{"start":4192.805,"end":4200.169,"text":"113個立委啊你現在如果這些立委們的邊的助理是零人那這個錢怎麼辦這個錢你們要照撥嗎我講的是實際執行面這立法院要撥款啊實際也照撥嗎"},{"start":4206.874,"end":4229.873,"text":"我想這個部分 助理有多少人是由委員來聘任 委員是一個僱主的概念那叫聘零人嘛 那你們錢也是照撥嗎沒有 如果說他沒有聘的話我們這邊不會有撥款的這樣一個動作我們現在是按照委員所提的 到底聘了多少人是現在嘛 我說那個立法過了以後 陳律師的案子過了以後"},{"start":4231.207,"end":4254.248,"text":"這些錢就立委統籌運用嘛 不限發給助理費嘛他可以不發助理費啊 不發加班費啊通通拿去施用啊那這個時候你們撥不撥錢啊現在所有助理關心這件事情啊這個部分要看到時候 那個法通過以後法規定的內容來說不是法規定 按照成立政策版本通過的話啦我們現在不是要討論這些事情嗎啊這通過以後 你們是執行單位嘛"},{"start":4258.51,"end":4281.064,"text":"對吧 你們是執行單位嘛那你們會不會撥款啦依法執行會不會撥依法執行你會不會撥啦要看當時候的法律啊就是撥嘛依法執行嘛啊就是撥嘛 對不對那撥了以後委員都不報助理的這個勞動的這個報酬都不報因為這統酬進來之後啊立委有可能就報零人啊那助理都不請了助理都不請了那立法還能怎麼樣沒有要怎麼樣 是不是"},{"start":4289.4,"end":4318.032,"text":"尊重委員的權利就尊重委員權利所以在立法院的立場立法院的副秘書長代表秘書長來你們的立場就尊重委員委員如果不請助理你們請趙波不請助理你們就尊重委員 對吧有兩個要件啦第一個要件當然就是合法啦到時候的法律怎麼規定就怎麼來執行如果就是通過陳立正的法案啦你們請趙波啊立委不請助理不給這個助理的酬金你們就尊重委員嘛 對不對"},{"start":4319.4,"end":4321.561,"text":"沒錯吧 好 來勞動部那如果有請了助理然後不給基本工資勞動部怎麼做顧問關係成立那他就是適用勞基法的對象那就不能低於我們規定的最低工資好 那我不併他當公費助理那他這個勞工的權利怎麼保障"},{"start":4346.706,"end":4372.835,"text":"不是公費助理其他勞工的雇傭關係也是一樣只要是有雇傭關係是適用勞基法對象都要符合最低工資那勞健保去哪裡保勞保的那個部分有我們勞工保險條例那健保這個部分我就勞保勞保去哪裡保勞保是跟我們的勞工保險局就是如果他是法令規定一定要投保的對象那就是要必須要依法要投保"},{"start":4373.362,"end":4397.928,"text":"那現在按照你的了解這案子接下來這一個雇主會是誰立法院的公費助理的勞僱關係它是成立在立法院的委員跟我們的助理之間委員跟助理之間那雇主的提撥呢依法應該要提撥就是這個立委要提撥立委的錢就是說"},{"start":4398.822,"end":4405.827,"text":"撥給我們統籌運用的錢我們要提撥只要是有成立雇用關係所有勞基法上的權益都要符合好來那個副秘書長按照成立真的版本統籌運用之後的這一個雇主提撥也撥給委員嗎要依照勞基法相關的規定來處理所以撥給委員還是才是放在你們那裡現在是你們駙馬對不對"},{"start":4424.349,"end":4452.349,"text":"現在公費助理是你們付嘛那你們現在給立委統籌運用了嘛 對不對我們現在的公費助理是撥給委員那邊去做運用因為僱主是委員啊我說僱主提撥那個錢啊就你們這裡撥出去嘛 對不對就是依法提撥那細節的部分可以請人事處長來做不是啦 我是說那接下來那筆錢也是撥給委員統籌運用是不是啦如果法律是這樣規定的話那就委員統籌運用嘛那委員也不聘助理 那統籌運用"},{"start":4453.274,"end":4481.16,"text":"那些錢要不要還給立法院啊我就沒請助理啊我怎麼會有雇主提拔勒邏輯上是啦邏輯上是這樣啦當然就是這國家的錢大家要沒有去運用的話大家要回到國庫啊有統籌運用啦他那個條例有統籌運用不用還啊統籌運用的部分牽涉到比較細節的部分啦到時候的那個法律規定的內容是怎麼樣我們才是依法不然叫陳立正的版本啦你是有看版本我一開始就問你有沒有看"},{"start":4482.21,"end":4498.583,"text":"那是草案而已 那不是阿伯看的照那個通過啦照那個通過你們怎麼執行啦我就不 就立委沒有請助理那僱主提撥的那個錢也會撥給立委嘛那立委要不要去付是立委決定嘛 那我就不付是怎樣啦"},{"start":4499.492,"end":4527.22,"text":"僱主有沒有請助理跟他有沒有提撥錢是兩件事不是啊 你擠的不好嘛請的助理才會有提撥錢沒有請助理就不會有提撥錢嘛不是啊 你擠的不好立委嘛統籌運用嘛對對嘛 對要就沒請助理那筆記要寫嗎如果說法通過是全部撥給立委他去統籌運用他當然就由委員來統籌運用不是啊 那你裡面有含那個僱主的提撥嘛他就要依法提撥啊要就沒請助理要提撥沒有助理就不用提撥啊沒有請助理 那個錢要不要還啊"},{"start":4529.96,"end":4543.789,"text":"如果是 你們的預算裡頭就是會一次撥過去嘛那就要看那個項目有沒有符合相關的法律規定啊我的意思 你的意思是說你都會提撥就對了你都會擠撥過去委員要怎麼用是委員的事嘛如果相關的法律規定有這樣的規定的話那當然要依法執行那如果按照現在陳立正的版本就是現在這8億8千"},{"start":4554.021,"end":4570.022,"text":"8億8千127萬9千元今年度假設今年度的這個數字這個錢你們就全部撥給113個立委嗎是一個統籌運用的概念假設這樣是一個概念的話那當然就依照這個概念來做處理"},{"start":4570.88,"end":4578.824,"text":"所以8億多全部撥給113個立委每個立委就是多了779萬多這個數字那這個數字你們撥出去後面立委要怎麼統籌運用立法院管不著法律如果這樣規定我們當然就這樣諮詢所以你們就是一個基本上委員跟助理之間當然就是所以你們就是一個轉帳的機構就對了我們是行政協助"},{"start":4594.924,"end":4608.563,"text":"就轉帳嘛 就把錢轉給立委 立委要怎麼用是立委的事嘛那如果法律規定是統籌運用在你們的角度就是把這個錢撥給立委嘛那後來立委要不要用 怎麼用也是他的事嘛好 謝謝"},{"start":4611.828,"end":4632.968,"text":"好 謝謝王逸川委員副秘書長要注意這個是第一個針對議題還沒進入深水區來詢問其實你也代表了立法院的立場代表你們周秘書長 更代表你們韓國瑜院長你講那要想一想這個未必要介入哪一個政黨之間"},{"start":4634.702,"end":4647.809,"text":"當一個正常人就好你那個詢答那個答覆回去你自己再看一看搞不好你自己都看不下去好不好來 接下來我們請翁曉琳委員做詢答好 謝謝好 首先先請秘書長先請張副秘秘書長請教來 副秘書長先請張副秘"},{"start":4666.67,"end":4683.834,"text":"委員好是 張富密早安因為我剛聽了王逸川委員的質詢那麼我在想說您可能對於陳玉珍委員的提案不是那麼的了解那麼您我們先從憲刑法來講好了我們立法委員每一個委員至少要聘多少位助理8到14位對 8到14位那這次陳玉珍委員的提案裡面他並沒有講說"},{"start":4695.138,"end":4707.867,"text":"並沒有說是完全不聘助理他要聘助理若干人至於這個若干人到底是一定要有一個人所以至少一定是一人以上"},{"start":4709.028,"end":4720.832,"text":"那麼是不是需要像現在八人以上或是未來有可能會調整成為其他最低像其他國家至少國會助理三人以上我覺得這都有討論的空間所以可能待會要請這個張富密可能再仔細研讀一下陳玉珍委員的提案那另外我要講就是說今年"},{"start":4730.055,"end":4733.717,"text":"有關於立法委員聘用助理修法的提案只是一個委員的提案那縱使本席有連署那我只是認為說這樣的提案或許可以拿到或許之後有機會假設有進到委員會議裡面來討論大家可以有不同的版本集思廣益"},{"start":4751.287,"end":4754.752,"text":"那至於就說這個陳玉珍委員裡面提案的內容是否妥適這本來立法院就很多討論的空間這並不是說是之後一定會以陳玉珍委員的提案版本通過坦白說以我個人的立場裡面有些內容我也不見得是贊同的"},{"start":4769.129,"end":4796.283,"text":"所以呢這個部分的話我想就是說待會張複敏在回答其他委員的議題時候我建議就是說可能還可以再從這方面的角度然後來去做回應畢竟這個立法院不是某一個委員提出的版本就會照案通過的這是在大家都清楚的一件事情那當然今天討論到立法委員聘用助理的事情那以本席雖然說我在立法院我是之前的委員"},{"start":4797.023,"end":4815.708,"text":"跟莊委員跟我們在這個其他委員來比我是之前的委員但是我的確我從大學端我到了立法院我看到聘用助理的狀況我發現了一些問題而有些問題的確是制度面上的僵化或者是說現行法律制度上面的不足所以呢才引發了這麼多的爭議那本期在之前在擔任這個"},{"start":4820.589,"end":4849.649,"text":"立法院的这个集合委员会的时候我有提出来说希望立法院法治局可以针对立法委员国会议员以及助理的问题来进行延伤所以为什么今天大家会看到立法院法治局的这份报告他们说这是我当时我在集合委员会的时候我有提出来为什么因为我想这边请教张富民您在立法院非常多年了请问一下我们立法委员可以聘任兼任助理吗"},{"start":4851.41,"end":4867.024,"text":"目前都是專任助理都是專任助理對不對我們不能拚任經驗助理或是我們也不能拚任工讀生明明就現在整個立法院立法委員的業務的面向非常多譬如說我可能只需要請一個終點的助理來幫我剪剪影片"},{"start":4867.965,"end":4888.255,"text":"拍拍照或是某個活動的時候需要有一個兼任part-time的人去幫忙可是問題是我現在我沒有辦法利用立法院的經費去支出我只能聘的都是專任助理那麼如果說我辦公室我有任何的業務上面我需要請教專家學者來諮詢或是我需要有一個小小的委託研究案請問我們現在立法委員有這樣的經費可以去支應嗎"},{"start":4898.439,"end":4901.884,"text":"這是我們個別分給我們的委員的辦公室的經費"},{"start":4904.116,"end":4931.865,"text":"似乎是没有嘛对不对我们没有类似这样的经费可以运用所以这也是不仅是我还有其实蛮多的朝野不分蓝绿白的这个委员们其实都有提出来说那就立法委员助理的聘用制度可不可以更为弹性而且呢当然我们一定会基站在现在保障立法委员立法委员助理既有的权利上面去做调整"},{"start":4932.745,"end":4945.649,"text":"所以包含國會助理他說的維持原來的什麼文康費用 健檢費用或是其他這些勞權依照勞基法上面的權利不會有任何的改變所以今天這個工會助理們他們"},{"start":4951.164,"end":4959.768,"text":"有一些反彈有些可能不是很清楚的狀況我都能理解但是我在這裡我也要特別說明任何一個法律的修正絕對不會影響到具有助理的權益除非是他們認為他們自己可能不夠qualified不夠優秀可能擔心未來改變的時候可能立法委員可能不願意再聘用他們我覺得可能會有一些這樣子一個擔心考量"},{"start":4978.737,"end":4993.198,"text":"因為以我們現在立法院給這個立法就是立法院每年編列預算支應立法委員的助理費用至少要聘8個人但是大概也就是40來萬左右聘8個人平均一個人是多少錢大概就5萬塊"},{"start":4994.86,"end":5015.096,"text":"我們如果要聘非常好的很優秀的國會助理其實這個錢是聘不到的所以為什麼一定要限縮在八個人坦白說我基本上是反對我認為說可以比照像是德國 日本等等這些國會辦公室國會議員的辦公室至少聘三位以上那我可以聘會計師 我可以聘律師我可以甚至聘這個很有專精的研究員"},{"start":5021.621,"end":5041.341,"text":"我可以給他很高的薪水但是以我們現的薪資待遇來講不可能做到這一點我想我這邊講的不知道張富敏您在長期在立法院的觀察是不是就像我說的我不可能就是聘低於八個人以下的助理"},{"start":5043.166,"end":5070.408,"text":"目前的法律來講委員當然是8到14位的公費助理所以說他依照法律應該就一定要聘助理至少8位那另外公費助理的部分我想兩個重點院長也在媒體上也表達過了有關於公費助理的權益的部分一定要依法而且盡力來維護因為公費助理對委員的問政來講是一個非常非常重要的一個協助的力量"},{"start":5070.968,"end":5095.118,"text":"是的 沒錯所以這也是我一直認為說其實我們立院的國會助理的所有的他們的權益還有他們的各方面的能力其實都應該要提升接下來當然就是比較回歸到法律面的問題我為什麼也支持這次的立法委員的聘用助理的這個議題應該要進行一些討論"},{"start":5098.86,"end":5125.748,"text":"因為確實現在立法院立法委員立法委員助理國會助理這三角關係法律關係是不清不楚的我們這邊請勞動部勞動部有派員先請教複密我們現在立法委員助理就是立委助理那麼他的雇主到底是誰他雇主是委員"},{"start":5126.559,"end":5149.154,"text":"是委員 對 是委員但是呢 這個薪水又是由誰來發薪水實質上是委員的發那便利是由那個立法院便利好 所以說從立法院的角度認為講說是其實立法委員就是實際的雇主那既然我們是實際的雇主我們跟立委助理之間的關係是什麼是依照司法上面勞基法僱傭關係嗎"},{"start":5153.884,"end":5174.816,"text":"這個剛剛我在報告裡面有提到這是一個聘僱關係 聘僱契約關係就是勞僱關係嘛聘僱契約關係不就勞僱關係對 所以來請教勞動部在過去其實也曾經有發生過這個各地方的這個什麼勞檢單位到立法委員辦公室來進行勞檢後來當然有可能有發現有違規的處罰的單位是誰"},{"start":5178.301,"end":5197.678,"text":"處罰是立法院嗎處罰的是雇主因為雇主是委員所以就是他如果是違法的話那就會是處罰委員是那所以如果說是處罰如果說如果說是立法委員就是雇主的話那麼按照現在的公費助理或是國會私費助理他的會有差別嗎"},{"start":5199.312,"end":5217.484,"text":"就是大家知道現在其實很多的立法委員因為有各地方的服務區所以他也可能在現在的經費不足的情況之下他會用他自己的錢他也會去聘助理所以到底立法委員跟自己用錢聘的助理的關係跟我用這個立法院編列經費來支應的這個助理關係勞基法上其實他是不會去處理經費的來源"},{"start":5224.428,"end":5239.18,"text":"他其實只看雇傭關係是成立在委員跟勞工之間這裡在講的勞工其實是不管是公費助理或者是他其他聘僱關係的成立他的僱主就是委員本人好 謝謝勞動部的回答"},{"start":5241.081,"end":5255.574,"text":"那麼也因為很清楚今天這個立委助理跟僱主之間的跟立委之間的關係不管他的薪資來源從哪裡來基本他就是成立的就是司法上面依據勞基法的相關的這個僱傭關係勞僱官關係那麼但是呢大家要知道現在就立法委員助理來講因為他薪資來源如果說按照國會助理的他們這些訴求來說"},{"start":5267.564,"end":5280.666,"text":"這非常有可能就是讓他們成為所謂的委託型的公務員現在立法委員助理在國會拿所謂的公費助理他算不算是公務員請教張富敏他算是公務員嗎這個部分應該是法務部主管的法規來做解釋我跟你講這個在解釋上面就有空間"},{"start":5294.945,"end":5321.067,"text":"如果说我们讲说把公务员的定位分成他可能是身份型公务员还有什么劳务型公务员等等那么其实现在的立法院的国会助理他有可能会被定性为公务员所以一旦有任何的触犯他可能立刻就跳到贪污资罪条例里面去做处理这也不是我们作为立法委员我作为雇主我不愿意看到的"},{"start":5323.169,"end":5349.525,"text":"這件事為什麼我現在基本上我認為說要很清楚的把這幾個關係釐清楚現在外界會認為公費助理他的雇主真的就是立法委員嗎其實我們立法委員沒有那麼大的權利我所有的這個聘書還有這個每年的每個月的薪資的更換我都要向立法院去做報備去做申請許可我要去更換"},{"start":5350.786,"end":5359.505,"text":"所以好像實質上我們是雇主但是名義上我們是不是真的是雇主還是我們只是立法院的人頭雇主而已"},{"start":5360.612,"end":5370.34,"text":"這關係很複雜這也是我認為說在趁著這次議題當然這個法案我們是不是繼續要往前推進當然要看這個莊昭偉要不要排案那我這裡我會再聆聽大家的意見那麼看看就是等到雙方助理公會還有社會大眾意見以及各部會立法院立法委員們的意見我們大家一起來及時廣義看看這樣的法案要不要繼續推進因為推進它基本也代表一種改革那麼它是有好處的"},{"start":5390.376,"end":5419.636,"text":"但是如果不改就像現在這樣子可能動不動立法委員就什麼適用泰國秩序條例然後這個助理也變成是公務犯但是明明在其他國家裡面非常清楚基本上立法委員國會議員他不會把他視為是公務員在很多國家都把他排除於他就不是公務員那麼如果說立法委員真的有侵占助理的費用夠不夠成犯罪請問張富敏"},{"start":5422.301,"end":5439.394,"text":"这部分我们立法院不是主管机关好 应该是人事处当然构成犯罪刑法上不是有侵占罪 诈欺罪一大堆的犯罪所以现在外面的媒体说什么立法院我们这次陈昀臻委员的提案基本上是要把立委什么除罪化"},{"start":5440.094,"end":5453.95,"text":"哪來的什麼除罪化頂多是說可能在法律適用上面不適合去適用貪污治罪條例但是它還是有很多特別法刑法民法勞基法等等的相關的法律的規定並不是說是除罪化"},{"start":5455.111,"end":5478.825,"text":"所以這個議題基本上是很重要的雖然說現在外面的討論很多雜音很多而且很多都被媒體帶風向然後變成是好像是立法委員變得自肥連統籌運用的這個概念任何的錢不可能是進到立法委員個人私人的帳戶我要再講一遍"},{"start":5480.103,"end":5507.639,"text":"未來就算是說是有這個所謂的讓立法委員門辦公室有一筆經費可以去聘用人力還有就相關的業務經費這也是進到立法委員辦公室他會是一個特殊的帳戶他不會是進到立法委員個人的私人帳戶裡面所以這根本不是自肥的問題我想我今天發言也蠻久的也謝謝周偉"},{"start":5508.799,"end":5512.341,"text":"給我比較多的時間來釐清一些相關的議題好 那就這樣 謝謝張富米好 謝謝翁小玲委員不過我還是再提醒富米處長一下再看看你們韓院長昨天的新聞稿你們韓院長 我們韓院長不要你們韓院長我們立法院韓院長代表立法院發出的新聞稿是說"},{"start":5532.099,"end":5549.266,"text":"國會助理是我們立法院的家人提醒各個黨團在修法的時候不能侵害到國會助理的權益我從早上聽到你的回答到現在你就沒有把國會助理當家人好不好 等一下要特別注意一下你們太多插嘴我們接下來請王宏威委員來做詢問王一川你來代理一下 我要 抱歉"},{"start":5570.266,"end":5586.73,"text":"王紅花委員好 謝謝主席我們主席老闆要跟主席要抱怨一下沒關係 我先請我們法務部的法治司司長現在是司長好 司長請"},{"start":5591.792,"end":5596.858,"text":"其實主席離開但是因為這可以做記錄我覺得今天我們的報告應該要有那個應該要有司法院的代表因為今天我們討論助理費相關其實法院也有很重要的角色"},{"start":5611.696,"end":5632.528,"text":"我在這邊先針對我們今天的專題報告當然主要是來自於陳一貞委員的提案我認為這個案子就是大家討論了這麼多也引起我們立法院不分各政黨黨派的助理高度的關注"},{"start":5634.329,"end":5651.767,"text":"我個人認為就是未來的這個法案的修法應該秉於兩個原則第一個就是不能夠侵害助理的權益這個是很重要的因為助理剛才我們主席說助理是我們的家人其實助理"},{"start":5652.527,"end":5678.625,"text":"對於立法委員或者對議員來講他就是我們的夥伴事實上不管是議員或助理他的這個所有他問政也好或者是他在地方的服務也好其實助理很多就是我們的分身所以我們是一個共同體所以不能夠侵害我們助理的這個權益那第二個那個原則應該是公款公用"},{"start":5679.145,"end":5699.299,"text":"我覺得這兩大原則是非常重要的但是過去其實十多年來因為有關於助理費 乍領助理費的爭議不斷有人形容說這是歷史共業有人說形容歷史共業所謂共業就是說不管你是哪一個黨派都會有"},{"start":5702.181,"end":5720.302,"text":"議員或者立委要涉入其中但是為什麼今天一開場我就講說今天應該要有司法院的代表來但是我覺得我想先就一個案例一個案例來就教於我們法務部"},{"start":5721.451,"end":5730.336,"text":"那就說有關於助理費的制度的設計照理說我們今天不管修法如何怎麼樣修法它應該所謂的一體適用應該是一體適用也許地方的議員的助理費因為它是兩個不同的法律"},{"start":5739.642,"end":5764.059,"text":"但是同一部法律就應該一體適用所以我在這邊要特別提到新竹市長高鴻安的助理費的爭議他的助理費爭議主要是來自於加班費的使用來自於加班費使用他被判重刑7年4個月而且停止了市長的職務"},{"start":5767.389,"end":5780.476,"text":"因為呢高鴻漢當時當立法委員的時候他的團隊他的團隊的助理呢是來自於我們的監察院前秘書長李敬義秘書長的這個團隊"},{"start":5783.377,"end":5806.443,"text":"所以高鴻安一直爭議的是他們在他們的辦公室團隊所使用加班費的方式事實上是沿用李俊逸委員當時是李俊逸委員辦公室的方式因為這個案子後來扯出李俊逸"},{"start":5808.623,"end":5833.544,"text":"當時北檢有沒有調查呢北檢是有調查的北檢是有調查的那麼也傳喚了他的助理這個助理叫黃惠文那因為他就是涉及高鴻安這個助理費他的加班費的這個就是依貪污治罪條例他這個不是只有高鴻安被治罪那麼其他的助理老實講那時候我們討論很多"},{"start":5835.606,"end":5849.999,"text":"我印象裡他們其實他們的費用非常非常少但是全部都判刑當然有很多都判了緩刑李俊一這個案子北檢當時確實有分案調查而且傳喚助理到庭說明"},{"start":5850.76,"end":5872.85,"text":"根據這位助理黃惠文的說法說法他對外的說法他說確實他因為他是在李靜怡辦公室是要用這樣的方式然後到了高鴻安委員的辦公室也用這樣的方式他的方式就是說你你拿到你的加班費然後再回捐再回捐到辦公室由辦公室來做使用"},{"start":5875.031,"end":5883.536,"text":"高鴻安現在二審即將宣判二審即將宣判但是李靜怡的案子到現在已經32個月32個月沒有下文請問一下"},{"start":5891.582,"end":5904.833,"text":"市長像這樣子的案子一個案子已經二審都要宣判了那另外一個類似的案子32個月沒有下文 合理嗎"},{"start":5907.355,"end":5932.252,"text":"你笑了不是我不是笑我只是說各該案件都有各該案件的事證的問題那我想這個部分來講因為我個人是法治單位那檢查機關他當然本於他的職長都會就是就相關的事證來做一個認定那因為不同的案件事證的不同情況之下可能偵辦的一個過程裡頭就會有時間上頭"},{"start":5938.356,"end":5948.188,"text":"看起來好像李俊逸這個案子好像特別複雜照理說沒有那麼複雜這應該要回到該個案那我們不會去試射到個案來做討論通常這都是你們的標準答案我還是很有耐心的讓你回答因為這要有記錄"},{"start":5957.137,"end":5970.965,"text":"但是這個案子所以就難免被外界認為說是不是雙標 你懂我意思嗎高鴻安他有辦 而且呢現在我就說已經到了二審即將宣判 李俊逸將近"},{"start":5972.186,"end":5994.607,"text":"32個月很快的3年就過去了我們也不曉得這個案子第一個到底有沒有在偵辦第二個他到底就是在檢察官新政認為能不能所以我也在講說我們說建立制度很重要但是不管檢調或者是法院他的新政跟他的辦案態度也很重要"},{"start":5995.288,"end":6006.498,"text":"黎智英這案子他的案子也是同樣的也是用他的加班費把他回捐根據這個他的助理的對外也是這樣子公開的講法也是一樣那麼"},{"start":6009.276,"end":6038.035,"text":"這個案子呢當然我後來再看他這個助理有講他說李俊逸他不管錢他講了一個說李俊逸不管錢好但是無論如何但是無論如何你今天拿了讓助理拿了加班費再回捐出來那李俊逸的案子到底可不可以那沒有道理說這個案子第一個我也不知道他辦的怎麼樣第二個你不然就牽結他你覺得他沒問題你就牽結他你也不牽結"},{"start":6039.817,"end":6052.614,"text":"你認為不需要起訴你就不起訴他也可以你不然覺得起訴他那大家就再來那個什麼我想李俊逸自己法律出身對不對他一定會為自己的那個什麼來辯護"},{"start":6054.27,"end":6076.845,"text":"結果什麼都沒有所以這樣子的做法到底OK不OK還是告訴你高鴻安不OK李靜怡就OK所以這個助理費相關的案件為什麼會引起這麼多爭議為什麼會引起這麼多的商標這個是其中之一另外我再特別提到一個就是"},{"start":6080.738,"end":6097.934,"text":"這個因為時間有限我要講一個案例這個案例我也覺得非常扯因為有非常多的助理我剛講藍的綠的白的都有這個案例那其中有一個是台南市議員王家珍的案例我剛講說"},{"start":6099.83,"end":6109.683,"text":"第一個我們不能傷害助理的權益第二個我們應該公款公用王家珍這個案例呢他的特殊是在什麼地方啊"},{"start":6110.859,"end":6130.625,"text":"是在於他因為他有兩個助理可能是積欠卡債還怎麼樣的他會被法院執行所以他有高報其他助理的助理費然後再把其他的助理費再拿來去補助再去補貼給這兩個助理"},{"start":6133.227,"end":6154.921,"text":"這個在法官的裁定之下 裁定是很確定他確實是取之於助理 用之於助理他可能拿ABC助理 然後把他的費用再拿給另外兩位他被法院執行 就是因為如果你再報他就是被法院執行 拿不了那麼多錢"},{"start":6155.902,"end":6171.089,"text":"所以王嘉珍的例子是他一毛錢他一毛錢都沒有放在自己口袋裡他取之於助理 用之於助理所以後來法院怎麼判他呢法院沒有判他貪污自罪條例但是說他"},{"start":6174.21,"end":6195.74,"text":"就是偽造文書死公務員登載不實就判他緩刑我想法院也有這個憐憫之心啦他也想說你根本就是沒有你一毛錢都沒有放在自己口袋裡啊所以呢 判他緩刑可是王家珍還是認為要爭自己清白他說我一毛錢都沒有拿我是清白的"},{"start":6197.561,"end":6217.251,"text":"他判他緩刑 所以他就沒有去選擇他去繳罰金你要判緩刑 他認為說自己是清白的結果 這個我們那個召委非常清楚結果我們立法院修改了我們的公職人員選罷法說你判緩刑不能參選"},{"start":6222.182,"end":6228.794,"text":"王嘉生當年因為這個案子他不得成為候選人中選會不讓他登記"},{"start":6230.385,"end":6255.254,"text":"所以我要講的 這個源自於一個助理費你以為他乍領助理費 可是法院其實也某個程度法院還他清白 說你沒有乍領所以他根本沒有用貪污治罪條例辦他他就說你其實通通都用在助理身上你是因為認為助理這樣子如果這樣子被法院執行那實在所得太低了"},{"start":6256.394,"end":6278.301,"text":"他用這樣的方式結果呢 判他緩刑當時法院 我在查法官也沒有想到說最後竟然會修一個說緩刑不得參選當時是想要可能想用這種方式這種方式來處理可是這個案子呢就有出現違反這個比例原則的問題所以對王家珍這個議員來說他沒有任何的貪污"},{"start":6286.161,"end":6305.849,"text":"他是公款公用他也維護助理的權益他通通都符合可是最後其結果他竟然被褫奪他被參選的權利所以我今天講了這幾個案例是在這麼多年來很多案例"},{"start":6306.929,"end":6327.134,"text":"被大家討論說我們現在同樣一個助理費的制度之下會出現這麼多不公平的事情確實出現了這麼多不公平的事情你老實說我剛剛為什麼在講那個說召委應該把法院叫來我們同樣的那個在新北市一位議員應該是周雅玲議員"},{"start":6329.975,"end":6333.518,"text":"他的狀況是什麼呢都已經確定他有把助理費拿去繳房貸拿去繳什麼社區管理費 八八八 都有可是法院最後怎麼樣認定呢法院說 可是你在這個服務地方什麼等之類的你的公費的支出也很多所以最後也判他緩刑"},{"start":6354.537,"end":6367.195,"text":"可是他的狀況他跟王家鎮王家鎮是一毛錢都沒有放過自己的口袋裡面但是周雅玲是確實拿去繳錢繳自己的房貸錢繳自己的那個什麼他們從金流通通都查出來"},{"start":6368.564,"end":6394.646,"text":"但是他後來以說我可能這種什麼紅白帖啊什麼吧啦吧啦就說你這個也有一定的數量就是有點像大水庫理論這個大水庫理論呢在很多的法院有一些法官採取大水庫理論他會給予比較輕的刑度有一些法官根本不採刑只認為你只要你只要沒有公用我就重判"},{"start":6396.117,"end":6418.555,"text":"所以在這些制度下 所以我覺得因為今天沒有法院的代表來當然有我們法務部 您剛才講說你也沒有辦法什麼救個案但是我要講 就一個加班費 光是一個加班費的制度就出現了一個制度 一個法條 兩個世界"},{"start":6420.596,"end":6432.138,"text":"這個就是外界所認為不合理的到現在我都不曉得到底你如果按照那個高鴻安的做法或按照李俊逸的做法到底OK不OK啊"},{"start":6433.484,"end":6454.383,"text":"不能說不同政黨有不同OK的方式所以我要講就是說我們在整個的修法過程裡面我再重述其實我個人非常重視助理的權益我自己是議員出身我到了立法院我第一件事我是第一個提出幫地方助理加薪法案的"},{"start":6455.183,"end":6479.764,"text":"立法委員當然後來很多我們跨黨派的很多的立委不管是提出修法或者是支持我自己從地方議會出來那我也真有敢於我們地方議會的助理確實工作量很大但是呢20多年當時我提出來是20幾年從來沒有加薪過所以我提出來幫地方議會的助理加薪那"},{"start":6482.126,"end":6507.823,"text":"當然我剛才講但是我們這種有關於詐領助理費仍然是層出不窮詐領當然是我們社會或者法律所不容但是我在這邊今天的質詢我要提出來就是我們在這樣的一個標準之下就即便我們現在沒有修法的標準之下仍然會有很多不公平的現象這也是我們必須要去努力的一個方向以上 謝謝"},{"start":6510.543,"end":6515.64,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員接下來請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":6528.021,"end":6553.793,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們立法院副秘書長副秘書長法務部洪司長洪司長 請審計部副審計長副審計長還有行政總署副組長副組長 請這樣就好好 委員好我想我先回應一下王宏威委員不是說不邀請司法院因為這個"},{"start":6555.274,"end":6570.887,"text":"這一部法的主管機關就是我們立法院嘛 對不對所以這人要找到對啦那我想先請副秘書長我來念給你聽一下昨天的 今天十號嘛 昨天九號嘛立法院的新聞稿你有看到沒有你怎麼寫 你怎麼寫你簡單講一下 核心新聞稿的核心是什麼權益跟家人"},{"start":6580.325,"end":6598.646,"text":"對啊 權益跟家人就是國會助理是立法院我們的家人跟我們這個韓院長立法院叫捍衛助理的權益一句話你今天都沒說出來 我覺得這樣很可惜第二個 整部草案 陳委員的草案核心就只有一個"},{"start":6600.451,"end":6623.889,"text":"說兩項 第一所有的助理的薪資 全部變成立法委員薪資的一部分這個法案你應該都看過了嘛 這個就明講嘛那這樣合不合理 社會自由公定但問題是你怎麼會連說 跟韓院長的說法都不一樣 不跟他說第一 最可怕的是什麼 你知道嗎不用核銷 不用檢據最後是什麼 免刑責嘛"},{"start":6625.066,"end":6646.588,"text":"就是除罪話嘛 就這麼簡單嘛你覺得說要尊重立法院這個是立法院韓院長昨天發出來的新聞稿我再給你看三年前三年前2022年12月22號 裴洛西眾議院的議長"},{"start":6647.642,"end":6669.138,"text":"他去講說他的公開信他說幕僚對眾議院來講的話他的運作不可或缺確保履行我們的立法跟服務選民的職責我們必須盡一切努力留才招募最優秀的人加入身為議長首要任務就是要把最傑出多元背景的人才帶入國會山莊"},{"start":6670.478,"end":6692.602,"text":"人家的陪落詩是這樣說的你們韓國瑜是說 捍衛 捍衛你們副秘書人來這裡教教 蘇財霖 蘇財霖立法院沒關係 稍後通過以後變成新知的一部分 跟我們無關的立法院做出了決定你這個態度就讓我覺得好可怕很可怕 這個是一個副幕僚長你今天代表立法院來我認為這樣子對國會助理來講的話不妙啦 不妙啦我告訴你就是說"},{"start":6699.466,"end":6725.638,"text":"這個案子 開國庫的後門把公費變成私帳這些錢 名子名高嘛 你們很清楚嘛來自於老百姓嘛 老百姓會贊成說這些本來該給助理的 全部變立法委員的薪水以前叫做犯罪的 現在都變沒關係啊你立法院副秘書長 你說這樣沒關係 尊重你立法院不好 你不應該介入黨派"},{"start":6729.858,"end":6758.849,"text":"立法院是國家的立法院這個很清楚的嘛這種案件哪有什麼黨派的之爭呢這種案件就是用社會一般正常的眼光去看就知道啦可不可以這樣說我簡單聽你的看法立法院的行政幕僚人員都是嚴守行政中立是嘛 行政中立對阿你總是有你的看法啦你這樣做的態度要怎麼捍衛國會助理你這樣做的態度要怎麼像你們韓國瑜說的助理叫做家人我跟你們講喔"},{"start":6760.171,"end":6784.876,"text":"立法委員的國會助理都沒有薪水會不會很多助理來 會一堆這個法案通過以後就叫劣幣驅逐良幣欸 我有專欠的人 我來跟你日本人做助理什麼的薪水輸在你立法委員給我的酸 有專欠的人就酸了啊有一堆人說沒有關係"},{"start":6786.581,"end":6807.43,"text":"不要錢我也要你只要給我當你的幕僚當你的助理就好了會變成怎麼樣搞不好立法院是在監督行政部門那如果國會助理到最後是隨便給甚至可以不用錢的一大堆這種助理進入到立法院以後國會監督行政部門的力量崩潰"},{"start":6810.424,"end":6818.232,"text":"第二 變成一個利益交換的地方因為這些不要錢的立法會的國會助理他也必須要養活他自己的家庭啊那大家都亂做啊所以你們都不知道這個法案萬一通過"},{"start":6825.613,"end":6844.651,"text":"對於整個立法院的運作 還有監督行政部門那個整個制度力道完全崩毀掉以後對整個國家那種可怕的一個影響我今天對你這樣一個態度 我是覺得很可怕的另外 我要來比較一下"},{"start":6846.433,"end":6849.637,"text":"國會助理本來是立法運作 他們叫做贏武者啦也是國會立法品質的一個軟實力啦你從1992年修法確立助理的薪水直接匯入賬戶以後確立薪資他已經不是對於立法委員的補貼的性質了啦"},{"start":6863.615,"end":6876.145,"text":"你說到了1999年2011年編制跟費用逐步去調整加入了加班費跟臨終獎金2025年我們現在的每一位委員辦公室每一位的助理費47萬你如果14個去省"},{"start":6879.668,"end":6889.137,"text":"其實一個助力平均才三萬多啦在台北市的副民事長也很清楚嘛我們三位機關代表也很清楚嘛所以這錢是要怎麼有夠我們想盡辦法要幫這個助理啊看能不能給他提升你現在不是 這個借到出來很可怕 很可怕我剛剛提了裴洛西"},{"start":6901.26,"end":6910.267,"text":"人家美國前眾議院議長佩洛西他講的不是口號他直接用命令他說全國國會助理全職的國會助理薪資不得早於4萬5千美金美國眾議員的薪水是17萬佩洛西的命令是什麼你知道嗎高階助理薪資上限直接拉到21萬2千1百為什麼他敢這樣拉到比國會議員的薪資還要高"},{"start":6929.445,"end":6953.36,"text":"很清楚 他認為是他們這些國會助理對於整個眾議院的一個運作是不可或缺的所以他們想盡辦法努力要留才把最優秀的人要招攬進他們的國會山莊人家做的叫做什麼 改革 人才提升我們現在做的叫做什麼 助理會全部整包交給立法委員"},{"start":6954.537,"end":6964.623,"text":"免核銷 免收據 這是哪門子的一個改革啊今天就很可惜啦 今天本來就是秘書長要來草野協商本都你爺爺的 你就很技巧性你就來這裡做稻草人不然來 你也這樣 呵呵啊 義正慈嚴 表達一些態度給你請一下 那不就對了我不忍苛責你 但是我是覺得你那個角色啊"},{"start":6980.1,"end":7007.312,"text":"沒有搞清楚沒有搞清楚啦所以你們口口聲聲說是關心助理的工作權你們這些都叫做場面化啦這個歷史會給出最公允的評價也會記住是哪一位院長在改革的十字路口上選擇轉身離開啦所以你們這個立法院做這個幕僚我覺得很可惜啦這幕僚長你今天算代表來你看我們界邊的監察院"},{"start":7010.376,"end":7034.842,"text":"隔壁監察院監察委員公費助理一人多少你知道嗎他年薪七十六萬塊月薪六萬三司法院大法官助理依照薪資的折合起薪最低五萬五最高達七萬立法院的三四萬大家在爭執所以草野立委其實立場就算是有差異但都有一個共識"},{"start":7036.286,"end":7052.235,"text":"是如何想盡辦法來透過體制內的預算調整實質提升助理的待遇這不同黨派的委員都是這樣想的王鋒威委員也這樣想的你不是 你來就看到這個哎呦 這莊瑞最白的 這民進黨白的我就要趕快站在國民黨這邊你在搞什麼我在跟你審法案你這個態度不對"},{"start":7063.206,"end":7083.867,"text":"態度不對你們這樣會把整個制度去把它徹底去把它給摧毀掉你不覺得國民黨你很愛那副分子總召說這是一個進步法案你講不出來喔我請你評價一下這部草案進步在什麼地方你告訴我簡單兩句話就好說我阿伯我們給我們行政部門做一個仲裁者"},{"start":7084.878,"end":7098.684,"text":"報告委員 因為今天我們排的是徐委員的法案不是陳委員的法案是嘛 一定表達嘛沒有不對嘛 就是要問你這個嘛不然我不這樣排 你們完全迴避嘛你們連來都不會來嘛 對不對你當作我菜市場 我不知道你在想什麼回應一下委員排我們一定會來"},{"start":7111.175,"end":7113.316,"text":"我告訴你 我是針對整個國會幕僚 國會助理"},{"start":7136.735,"end":7147.222,"text":"如果說這個草案通過以後 這一些薪資全部變成立法委員薪資的一部分你沒有看法 你算知識份子咧你來做到刮掉大家 欸 都當作沒關係 給那些日本人很大你們說怎麼樣就怎麼樣 可以這樣子喔你後面那些行政部門 至少人家來講話都不會像你們那麼蒼白無力"},{"start":7163.257,"end":7173.653,"text":"人家自己提出各部門他們自己的看法國會助理這部草案國會助理的權益立法院秘書處你們可以沒有看法"},{"start":7176.532,"end":7198.92,"text":"我請你真正表達一下這個部分我想也不是沒有看法這個問題我們其實私底下有在討論過分為兩個部分一個部分是專業的部分一個部分是權益的部分那如果是專業的部分的話我們會參考其他國家或者是我們希望有一個專業培訓認證制度這個也可以提出來"},{"start":7199.56,"end":7203.203,"text":"是啦 我在說錢的部分啦那錢的部分呢 這個早就該做這個是簽到權益嘛那簽到權益因為委員剛才提到我們是一個合一致的機關所以對於酬金的這個增加就像剛剛委員所提到的裴洛西的那個看法一樣其實裴洛西的看法我們也相當認同因為不同的專業這個程度他會有不同的一個酬金的資金是嘛"},{"start":7224.302,"end":7242.995,"text":"我很樂意聽到你說對於美國前眾議院議長佩洛西她這樣的一個他們的一個作為你們是認同的可是問題你們現在的作為跟這個草案提出來你們的態度完全是相反啦我告訴你這部法案陳委員這部草案過了以後真正核心問題在哪裡除罪話啦 你說我不知道你們都沒態度"},{"start":7249.741,"end":7254.723,"text":"我想酬金的部分好 要怎麼樣去做調整那可以藉由黨產協納方式來做處理現在倒閉了你不覺得現在倒閉嗎跟你想的剛好相反要有立法院秘書處立法院你們今天這個破話亂來到這裡要有立法院的態度回去好好看一下你們昨天發出來的新聞稿"},{"start":7275.464,"end":7284.347,"text":"再好好看一下2022年人家裴若曦那個公開聲明好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝莊瑞雄委員來來 我們請吳思瑤委員好 謝謝翊川主席好 有請我們張富命"},{"start":7306.373,"end":7310.276,"text":"來 張富美請法務部 司長司長委員好大家早安這哪裡是進步的國會這根本是退回36年前"},{"start":7321.707,"end":7336.65,"text":"的退步國會所以民進黨反對自肥法案立場非常清楚今天上午有一些他黨的委員在這裡質詢我也非常認真的聆聽我認為這些在野黨的委員沒有人敢直求對決"},{"start":7338.055,"end":7356.003,"text":"他們可能會提到過去哪些案例或者是要扯到民進黨哪些涉案的委員之類的就是沒有人敢針對陳玉珍立委的這一個助理費除罪話國民黨或民眾黨真實的立場是什麼沒有人該表達"},{"start":7357.185,"end":7380.123,"text":"民進黨非常清楚反對自肥的法案非常清楚現在在我們的三樓有一個讓立委簽署的我們跟國會助理站在一起民進黨的立委我們都具名簽署代表我們負責的責任下一頁今天呢朝野協商成了自肥法案最好的遮羞布了嗎看來就是如此嘛"},{"start":7381.347,"end":7404.935,"text":"從來沒有昨天下班前急急忙忙的也從來沒有看過韓院長這麼認真啊早上九點就要朝野協商的過去朝野協商韓院長大概都是下午的時間然後呢快速的安排一個朝野協商九點鐘好早啊韓院長辛苦了為了護航掩護週萬來要起個大早來朝野協商"},{"start":7405.956,"end":7430.011,"text":"原來呢周恩來就是可以拿到一個請假單就您來這裡代打了我們來看看今天朝野協商讓我覺得是非常諷刺的一場協商說是要挺年輕人你們都說國會助理是我們的家人結果呢今天協商要反年改"},{"start":7431.007,"end":7456.854,"text":"把現在限職公務人員未來可能領不到退休金的這個風險就是要強行通過了讓可能造成年改基金破產7000億的缺口要全民買單對我們跨世代的年輕世代哪裡公平這是第一個反年改的議案今天要協商 因為明天就要表決"},{"start":7458.632,"end":7473.283,"text":"然後呢更離譜的民眾黨最近因為有委員逼迫立委啊對不起逼迫助理們可能去撤遷了相關的反自肥的法案所以呢哎呦趕緊的又沒收了"},{"start":7474.944,"end":7490.569,"text":"黨團協商林怡景召委的權限青年基本法現在法案委員會完成審查正在進行教育委員會林怡景召委他依程序要進行的黨團協商也在努力安排也在溝通爭議的法案"},{"start":7491.55,"end":7512.197,"text":"但是呢韓院長突然這麼勇於認識耶早上九點起個大早要協商趕快沒收了林怡瑾 昭偉還沒排的黨團協商居然韓院長要越組太刨先來進行青年基本法的協商我覺得光看今天的協商的這一個通知我就覺得非常的諷刺啊"},{"start":7514.025,"end":7527.829,"text":"反年改就是踐踏世代正義然後讓周恩來拿到了一個嫁單不敢來這裡直球對決這個自肥的法案就是傷害我們國會助理的工作權利更踐踏了我們的國會問政的專業"},{"start":7530.697,"end":7557.923,"text":"然後呢排了一個青年基本法我看了實在非常生氣青年基本法吳斯堯是全立法院第一個提出法案催生的立委我從上一屆就提出了我還在努力的催生他爭議的條文我不放棄的去溝通跨黨派的委員我希望青年基本法大家是在共識的狀況之下挺青年不要用表決的方式來通過所以我們還在努力"},{"start":7558.743,"end":7578.381,"text":"可是今天的朝野協商反年改踐踏世代正義挺自肥傷害國會助理的工作權益然後呢擺了一個要催生青年基本法我覺得這根本就是好虛偽喔你們立法委員這些大人們看在年輕世代的眼裡好虛偽喔"},{"start":7579.321,"end":7602.177,"text":"如果是挺青年的就業權工作權生存權怎麼會去反年改呢怎麼會去挺陳玉珍的這個法案周恩來今天不敢來這裡直球對決呢我是非常的怒不可一啊把青年基本法這一個正向的法案居然跟反年改跟挺自肥綁在一起立法院太丟臉了下一頁"},{"start":7605.748,"end":7634.42,"text":"您剛剛沒有回答喔剛剛莊瑞雄教委一直在cue您喔助理費除罪化的修法哪裡進步哪裡進步您沒有回答我要不要再給您一點時間你要不要來回答教委員因為今天真的沒有去研究到陳委員的一個法案的實質的內容那你們不是非常過分嗎立法院吵得這麼沸沸揚揚的事件"},{"start":7636.277,"end":7653.626,"text":"你們說你們沒有去研究來到這裡還要混今天排的是徐委員的那個草案所以我們就徐委員的草案那我現在問你啊徐委員是很進步等一下我會跟您談他的法案內容那陳玉珍委員的法案哪裡進步哪裡進步你答不出來你不敢答因為這個部分我們尊重個別委員的意見"},{"start":7664.078,"end":7676.228,"text":"對 這就是你們的立場韓國瑜院長講得好聽任何修法都不該來侵害助理的工作權但是下一頁你們今天的報告寫得非常清楚"},{"start":7677.645,"end":7694.676,"text":"公費助理的聆聘、解聘、聘用資格、薪資、工作內容、拆勤管理、各項人事管理都是雇主立委的權責你們立法院只負責行政的協助所以說 自己沒地貸啦 立委的事啦"},{"start":7695.656,"end":7723.104,"text":"剛剛王逸川問得非常好啊如果這個立委他沒有請半個助理請問你的助理費是不是還要撥款給立委您再回答一次是不是要撥款會如何進行如果這位立委你明知他沒有請半個助理那這筆錢你怎麼做行政處理我想這個部分是公款公用啦有聘助理我們再撥款啦應該是這樣的法理啦你說什麼 再說一次"},{"start":7724.738,"end":7747.359,"text":"我想國家的錢嘛 公款就是公用啦那有聘助理當然就有撥啦那沒有聘助理理解上應該是不可以啦那您剛剛回答王逸川委員的說法你自己馬上打臉自己囉您剛剛回答王逸川的是說你依法還是要撥款那現在好 您再回答你可以更正沒有關係如果這一個助理這個立委沒有聘任任何助理"},{"start":7748.22,"end":7772.477,"text":"然後他每個月的這個助理費是零啊因為陳玉珍的法案是鬆綁了所有的下限上限的人數嘛那你的每個月四五十萬的助理費是不是依舊撥款您再嚴謹的回答一次我剛剛回答的跟現在沒有違背啦我剛剛回答的是說如果我們的法律是這樣的規定這樣通過的話那它就是一個統籌運用的概念"},{"start":7773.51,"end":7799.994,"text":"好那你又回答刚刚就没有所谓的那我听懂了您的意思确实就是陈玉珍要除罪话他的提案的核心要指助理费就是立法委员实质薪资之一部分立法委员对此一补助费之运用自有完全的处分权限其运用范畴不以助理费为限这是他的提案说明"},{"start":7800.134,"end":7821.367,"text":"我想委員誤會啦 我沒有去做我沒有去就陳委員的草案來做任何的分析你這樣繞來繞去那你到底撥不撥款看他法律怎麼規定我們怎麼處理啦應該是這樣所以現在的法律是沒有陳玉珍這個惡法啊如果這個惡法過了你就是得撥款了不是嗎是不是就是這樣嘛"},{"start":7826.653,"end":7832.097,"text":"這個就是我剛剛所回答那個依法執行就是這樣子所以這是讓大家大吃一驚啊我們來看最後一頁喔進富二讀那一頁"},{"start":7839.69,"end":7867.674,"text":"我是覺得這件事情除了是助理的工作權勞動權益之外這更是國會專業問政的提升我們的助理費就像剛剛Pelosi的那個議案就是要提升我們的合理的薪資可以去聘任到專業的人他願意投入公共事務他願意來為國家的立法修法為國家的預算把關來進行最好的一個公共服務"},{"start":7868.254,"end":7878.489,"text":"所以他必須有合理的待遇但是呢現在的立法院不需要專業了我說真的不需要專業了在你們"},{"start":7880.078,"end":7896.447,"text":"偉大的韓國瑜院長 周外來秘書長的領導之下搭配藍白主導法案不用審啊 禁負二讀就好啊委員會的專業討論算什麼完全都不需要委員會的討論了"},{"start":7898.604,"end":7925.433,"text":"如果有委員會的討論就像年改翁小玲讓我們用一天的時間來討論年改2017年是花了一整年社會討論年金改革2025年用委員會各一天的時間每個立委只有三分鐘翁小玲說她要嚴格限制委員的發言時間因為翁小玲認為充分的討論是不需要的"},{"start":7927.186,"end":7948.001,"text":"這個還是有交付委員會審查的議案 每個委員三分鐘我當立委 也三任了我過去當任國會助理 二十多年前我從來沒有看過這麼好混的立法院委員會每個委員只要三分鐘 請他坐下來就好了不需要專業 不需要準備"},{"start":7949.386,"end":7965.172,"text":"然後呢更多數的議案是禁覆二讀委員會close只要立委會表決就好如果立委只是會表決就好表決的工具真的不需要太專業的問政募聊了不是嗎"},{"start":7966.591,"end":7981.045,"text":"這是我現在最痛心立法院制度決定立法院的社會形象制度的運行來決定我們國會的問政是提升還是退化"},{"start":7982.239,"end":8004.55,"text":"如果凡是用禁負二讀的方式我這裡列出來啦從公投綁大選政黨的這個救國團條例離島建設條例為中國起產地才化法國民黨版一年搬走國家1.4兆包括這個光電四法一次的扼殺了能源轉型包括法庭直播草率上路"},{"start":8005.51,"end":8033.252,"text":"包括呢 癱瘓憲法法庭包括公職人員選罷法 沒收了罷免權這些全部是禁覆二讀委我們的助理每天為了我們在這裡質詢 上質詢台要非常認真的收集資料但是現在立法院如果制度是退化成這樣當然啊 陳玉珍也許就是這種制度下"},{"start":8035.287,"end":8061.143,"text":"的想當然而助理請那麼多幹嘛立委拿來花就好了也不太需要助理了因為不需要專業討論了全部都盡夫而讀立委只要會表決就好現在的立法院真的是專業最淪喪的時刻最後的時間你們今天的這個報告我還是覺得非常的遺憾我們看許智傑的那兩頁什麼是進步性的法案"},{"start":8064.949,"end":8079.397,"text":"許智傑委員提的公費助理的任用法在資訊透明的部分薪資機制要給予必要的調整而且鼓勵久任跟專業深化的資深專業家級他更進步"},{"start":8080.077,"end":8099.233,"text":"也要確保助理執行職務如果遭逢危險的人身安全也給予助理的健檢的健檢的權利還有呢如果非自願離職也要提供必要的勞動權益的保障以及要提供立法院助理團隊必要的訓練制度下一頁"},{"start":8100.494,"end":8111.759,"text":"還有助理需要有保密的義務助理需要做到利益衝突的迴避連結義務的進行助理也要反滲透"},{"start":8112.987,"end":8135.748,"text":"助理也需要限定選轉門條款助理如果有不法的行為也應當啟動懲戒的機制什麼是進步的法案這才是進步的法案立法院要自律要克責才是全責相扶而不是一再的自肥一再的自我圖利"},{"start":8137.009,"end":8149.004,"text":"那就是擴權 如此而已什麼是進步的法案 請參考民進黨立委的提案兩相比較 高下立判辛苦了 謝謝好 謝謝吳思堯委員接下來請陳秀寶委員詢答"},{"start":8164.947,"end":8167.291,"text":"謝主席請本院張副秘書長及勞動部理專門委員來請"},{"start":8178.223,"end":8203.941,"text":"副秘書長 先請教您陳一貞委員提案的立法院組織法第32條第33條第35條條文修正草案將公費助理的公費兩次刪除也刪除聘用助理人數上下限的限定又將立委助理費及辦公事務預算等等直接撥以在立委的統籌運用而且免檢據核銷"},{"start":8206.518,"end":8225.169,"text":"秘書長您是法律系的兼任助理教授我想請教您這是進步的修法嗎當然剛才有委員問了你好像也不太好意思回答那沒關係我也不為難你但我想知道您覺得這樣子的修法是能夠保障國會助理工作的權益嗎"},{"start":8226.389,"end":8254.628,"text":"這樣的修法我們修法之後我們的助理還能適用勞動基準法嗎那免卷據核銷可以確保我們助理領到的是他應得的薪資嗎您覺得謝謝委員我想立法院及院長都非常重視我們助理的權益行政幕僚人員本於行政中立原則也不適合也不能夠評估任何委員的提案來沒關係來我請教一下那個李專委"},{"start":8255.589,"end":8272.001,"text":"公費助理適用勞基法但是如果未來改為委員自聘助理也且不用提供助理名冊那這樣的助理還能適用勞基法嗎助理會變成是民法的雇傭契約嗎他的薪資勞保勞退的權益還能受到保障嗎"},{"start":8276.246,"end":8298.815,"text":"在勞基法裡面它其實就是看有沒有成立雇傭關係那當然勞基法不會去處理要不要提供助理名冊的這件事情我們其實就是看實際上有沒有聘僱那如果有成立聘僱關係的話在勞基法上所有的權利助理們應該要得到的權利還有勞基法規定的事項其實都要符合"},{"start":8299.195,"end":8319.045,"text":"好 謝謝專委那我在這邊還是要做一個澄清這一次助理要求撤回法案的這個連署有媒體報導是有派系是由政國會發起的這不是事實我在這邊真的要特別的澄清避免以訛傳訛雖然發起是我的助理我到中心校才知道他們不敢讓我知道怕我有壓力也怕我反對"},{"start":8319.625,"end":8334.838,"text":"但我知道之後我鼓勵他們支持他們要自主決定我也跟他說你要跟你們的助理夥伴們你們一起站出來因為這是你們的權益如果你們自己都不發聲我該怎麼替你們做我該為你們做什麼但是我有嚴格的要求"},{"start":8335.518,"end":8351.938,"text":"就是連署的助理的個資不能外洩絕對不行所以他們後來給出來的資料是有做模糊處理的那我想請問副秘書長如果連署的助理有遭到秋後算賬明年不被續聘那立法院能不能保障他們的權益"},{"start":8354.087,"end":8368.693,"text":"我想這是一個假設性的問題不適合在這個地方做答案因為當然我們也知道說媒體有報導有那個來簽了之後又被迫撤簽的那也有辦公室是阻止他們的助理來簽的這樣的狀況其實你都一直說你們行政中立不好說"},{"start":8370.234,"end":8397.808,"text":"而本席認為如果嚴重的強害國家助理的國會助理的正當權益的法案一旦立法完成這麼多年好不容易爭取來的國會助理的相關的制度這些福利 這些保障包括他們的職位尊嚴都會被破壞未來我們的立法權能夠有效監督行政制衡行政的這個能力也會受到波及最後影響的就是人民的權利"},{"start":8400.322,"end":8416.543,"text":"另外我這邊要提一下過去福建金門地檢署曾經發函來立法院要求回覆立法院編列之公費助理費是否得由委員統籌支付之用當時的立法院秘書長以台立"},{"start":8417.263,"end":8446.209,"text":"願人字第097003623號回覆本院委員公會助理由委員自行聘任其雇主為委員本院警隊其應聘人數及酬金總額是否有合法定人數及限額內作審核其餘事項非本院所問表示他們不同意可以由委員統籌之用那麼請問副秘書長現在您的立場是改變的嗎是支持由委員統籌之用嗎"},{"start":8447.472,"end":8476.27,"text":"我想當時的這個發函是人事處在主辦可不可以請人事處來做回應所以你們不反對我們沒有辦法做這個部分的一個回應那草案的說明也提到說免提供助理名冊表示助理是變成由公家助理變成私人助理那我想請問副秘書長怎麼樣確定這個誰是助理無法確定誰是助理的時候那怎麼來管制他們進出立法院的安全維護工作你要怎麼做要怎麼管制"},{"start":8479.161,"end":8485.975,"text":"報告委員 其實我也在法治局待過所以說法治局的同仁沒有就任何委員的提案做過評估"},{"start":8488.135,"end":8506.984,"text":"我知道你們現在就是你就是來這邊你覺得說委員問了什麼你就用你們很公式化的很官方的這樣說法來回答但是整個影響整個立法院的運作現在全部的助理都非常的焦慮包括我知道有藍營辦公室的助理們就覺得"},{"start":8508.084,"end":8524.967,"text":"他们很想签不能签因为他的老板说不能签他们觉得非常非常的为难他们想要站出来捍卫自己的权益可是他们不能做整个立法院为了这个事情整个沸沸扬扬你今天跟我说我们不好说这个我们不能说这个我们不能决定这个我们不能做"},{"start":8526.112,"end":8553.255,"text":"好 韓院長前天有發聲明指出立法院尊重每一任委員的提案權身為立法院院長會全力捍衛國會助理的權益並且告訴每一個黨團任何修法都不該侵害國會助理工作權益包括工作權 待遇 福利以及各項法定的必要保障那我想請問副秘書長您覺得院長這樣的聲明是不是他也覺得陳昕臻委員的提案這個已經侵害到國會助理的工作權益"},{"start":8555.209,"end":8580.182,"text":"这个部分我想我无权发表个人的评论立法院是一个合议制我想请问你院长有说他会告诉每一个党团任何一个修法都不应该侵害国会助理的工作权益那么已经有告诉每一个党团了吗或是有指派秘书长或是您副秘书长去告诉每一个党团了吗就我的部分是没有至于其他部分我不清楚所以都没有"},{"start":8581.263,"end":8604.153,"text":"那既然院長已經發了這樣的聲明是不是請副秘書長您轉告秘書長也轉告韓院長提醒他他已經發了這樣的聲明了請趕快去親自告訴每個黨團並且溝通不要等木已成舟了就拉不回來了我們已經立院的助理委員助理是我們最親密的我們作戰的夥伴"},{"start":8604.966,"end":8625.246,"text":"有一些助理的年資比我們都還要資深他們進來立法院這麼久對整個的議事運作對整個的質詢對整個的議事的規則他們都比我們還要清楚所以我進到立法院來我非常尊重我的助理他們很多事情比我們都還要了解他們經過這麼多年的努力"},{"start":8627.105,"end":8646.473,"text":"才建立了這樣的制度才有這樣的保障才有這樣的福利雖然不是滿分我覺得大概有80分但現在你要把它打回去連及格的邊緣都沒有我覺得對助理真的是非常的不公平那好吧我的時間也到了我可以借一點時間嗎我想要問主計處主計總處的陳副主計長"},{"start":8656.276,"end":8677.831,"text":"請問副主席長如果陳一貞委員這個法案通過之後統籌運用這個預算要用什麼科目來編列對就是說這個就是一個重點就是說如果我們現在界定的就是說是一個就是助理的薪資的概念跟未來"},{"start":8678.972,"end":8704.166,"text":"把它界定成是一個補助立委的概念它的本質就會產生改變所以如果是補助的概念的話那它到底是用在人事費還是其他的業務費它產生了自主的空間那如果沒有相關的配套的話是不是真的會未來會用在這個公費的助理上就會產生一個模糊的空間"},{"start":8705.066,"end":8732.359,"text":"所以對於未來是不是真的就是說它本質如果是一個補助的概念以後就必須要看未來立法院在執行這個補助的時候它的配套的要求所以以主計總處來講現在的公費助理的這個費用呢是編列在第三款立法院主管第一項立法院第二幕委員問政業務第二節公費助理"},{"start":8732.839,"end":8758.292,"text":"是編在這裡就是目前非常明確是一個人是非的概念那未來如果是統籌運用的那未來如果是補助的概念它的本質就會產生改變而且助理的人數沒有上下限的規定會不會有人超高薪有人領低薪然後免減拒核銷我們真的沒有辦法確保我們的助理是能夠拿到他應得的這個酬金享有他該有的福利跟權益是不是"},{"start":8758.832,"end":8776.58,"text":"等於說這個法的未接我們就沒有辦法看出來他相關的控管的機制就必須假設法的未接不明確那未來的配套怎麼樣去處理這個公費助理薪資的部分就有待就是說立法院未來在配套必須去強化"},{"start":8778.941,"end":8791.705,"text":"謝謝謝謝副主席長我還是要再告訴一下副秘書長回去一定要轉達秘書長再轉達韓院長請好好跟每個黨團告知我們不可以損害侵害到國會助理的權益以上謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8793.513,"end":8819.508,"text":"好 謝謝陳秀寶委員 謝謝這個比較可惜今天是 你看這個行政部門只要首長一站在備詢台那麼多幕僚單位一定火力支援我們即使立法院今天不只是副秘書長來我們看法治局局長 人事處處長 主計處處長即使你們都有來也可以提供一下你們副秘書長"},{"start":8820.148,"end":8837.426,"text":"必要火力上的一個資源這一部法令陳委員所提出這樣的一個立法院組織法裡面主管機關本來就是立法院本來就是立法院這再次來做一個說明所以哪有可能說你們都沒有態度接下來請羅志強委員羅志強委員羅志強委員沒來請陳培宇委員詢答"},{"start":8850.376,"end":8861.158,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我要請立法院的副秘書長還有立法院的法治局局長請副秘書長還有法治局局長"},{"start":8862.629,"end":8886.547,"text":"來 委員好好 兩位我想要就剛剛副秘書長您的答覆我們接下來往下問剛剛王逸川委員問了然後吳思耀委員也問了如果有人沒有請助理那你們錢要不要撥給他那你的說法呢一下說有研究一下說只是看過一下我已經不知道你的說法到底是什麼但我認為你很為難因為你其實上面有長官我也知道你撥好多說那我來舉一個例子什麼樣的委員膽敢"},{"start":8890.129,"end":8903.956,"text":"覺得自己了不起偉大到不需要請助理然後還來拿這個錢我試想了一下有誰敢這麼大膽那我就用一般公民社會對於立法委員的想像來說我手上有一張呢"},{"start":8905.539,"end":8929.915,"text":"這些是被工都盟按照實際的數據統計出來的不來質詢的委員他們的工作表現光是基本的質詢就不來他就算翻翻報紙當天來問新聞都好但是他來都不來這些人就很有可能不請助理然後來當立法委員我來唸一下名字"},{"start":8931.344,"end":8941.691,"text":"黃建斌 林倩琦 圖全吉盧憲一 張志倫 林佩翔謝龍介 顏寬恆 丁學中 麥玉珍倒數第十"},{"start":8943.103,"end":8970.637,"text":"光是質詢提法案提預算做都不做來都不來而這些人就很有可能符合我們剛剛的假設因為你剛剛說你不回答假設性問題但我還是要問假設這些委員覺得自己了不起只要選上了反正預算呢公民也看不懂法案審查一般人也看不懂然後呢有沒有上電視被發現有沒有質詢也沒有人在意反正他就當一個"},{"start":8972.639,"end":8977.104,"text":"領700多萬的陽春立委這樣的人你們也要撥款給他嗎"},{"start":8979.836,"end":9003.469,"text":"謝謝委員 我無權發表個人的評論你無權發表喔 所以我要問我們立法院的錢是人民的納稅錢就直接會匯入這些委員的私人帳戶嗎我要再問一次 會匯入私人帳戶嗎因為剛剛有委員問嘛 這個錢不會進入私人帳戶那我就問 不進私人帳戶 那我陳培瑜擔任立委期間我要怎麼拿到這筆錢啊"},{"start":9006.181,"end":9020.923,"text":"如果委員想要了解的是現在目前的一個撥款狀況我當然知道現在的狀況我們在針對陳玉珍委員的提案跟您討論那這個部分是陳玉珍委員的提案我們實在不適合就評論好 沒關係您隔壁是法治局局長"},{"start":9022.506,"end":9040.869,"text":"在今年114年你們出了一個報告報告的名字沒有訊號沒關係我直接說報告的名字叫做各國國會公費助理之比較研究監論立法委員聘任公費助理相關法治問題研究分析"},{"start":9042.287,"end":9060.023,"text":"出這個報告的是法治局的郭明正也就是您本人還有陳偉佑114年3月請問您還記得這個報告嗎我知道在報告裡面你們有一段話讓我看了瞠目結舌原來立法院的幕僚單位可以指導司法機關"},{"start":9061.926,"end":9067.991,"text":"你覺得你有這麼大嗎我念給你聽喔我對您的懷疑是你身為立法院的幕僚機關你竟然可以指導司法機關我們等一下法務部來說一說他們的立場但在那之前我要先聽一聽您的立場你覺得你比司法機關還要大你的報告是這麼說的"},{"start":9082.284,"end":9109.59,"text":"你說目前國會的公費治理制度呢採寬鬆管理用人彈性的規定司法檢調機關云影在尊重立法機關的國會自律範圍內限縮相關違法性調查之偵查審判範圍你要不要自己用白話文解釋一下這句話什麼意思你對全國人民說你這句話什麼意思"},{"start":9111.01,"end":9130.04,"text":"叫司法機關說我們立法委員就是要給彈性給空間給好給滿你們司法機關在調查這些立法委員的時候要放寬彈性放好放滿然後相關的違法偵查審判範圍你們司法機關少說一點少管一點是這個意思嗎"},{"start":9131.88,"end":9150.246,"text":"我們做這一份報告是給我們委員做參考給我們委員做參考所以你的意思是陳玉珍看了你這個參考之後覺得我撿到寶了我按照你們的建議我來做出強害公費助理權益的修法"},{"start":9151.262,"end":9166.691,"text":"我沒辦法揣測陳一正委員的提案我們都會尊重委員的提案那我可以問你嗎請問法治局做各式各樣的報告都是因著法案法案的提案而來對不對或者是針對相關社會輿情討論或者是你們覺得重要的議題是嗎"},{"start":9168.072,"end":9188.625,"text":"根本上我們是立法院的幕僚我們是協助立法院做問政的參訪我們收集各國的相關文獻來做這樣的專案很好 你自己都說了你是立法院的幕僚機關你為什麼會寫出這個結論你為什麼覺得你可以指導司法機關做出這個限縮範圍的討論跟偵查範圍"},{"start":9191.487,"end":9209.78,"text":"你說我指導司法機關這個太沉重我沒有指導是嗎你的寫法看起來就像指導司法機關我們是建議而已建議對我們是建議好那請問你這個建議的基礎跟背景是因為你覺得有非常多立法委員或是基層民意代表在相關助理費上有產生很多爭議"},{"start":9210.7,"end":9230.252,"text":"所以你認為你要積極的幫這些立法委員跟民意代表爭取更大的空間來使用這個助理費你是這個意思嗎我們這部的報告都有前後的邏輯好我讓你說你的邏輯是什麼如果說要這樣子我是不是要全部把它念過一遍我不用你全部問因為這個全部都有上網公開但我就問"},{"start":9231.132,"end":9245.235,"text":"那這一句關於指導司法機關的你怎麼說所以人家才會說陳玉珍的修法在除罪話陳玉珍的修法是要自肥啊那你怎麼看好 身為法治局那我現在就問你針對陳玉珍委員的提案你怎麼看"},{"start":9247.233,"end":9273.349,"text":"跟委員報委員的提案只是提出來然後大家討論 其他委員也都可以提案大家討論 那太好了 我們來討論一下都尊重委員的提案來 局長我問一下你怎麼看陳玉珍的提案 我們現在來討論我的看法就是這樣 我跟你討論我的看法很簡單民意代表不可以壓榨國會助理剛剛所有委員都說了不管支不支持這個提案"},{"start":9274.505,"end":9292.962,"text":"你應該可以看得出來如果立法委員沒有國會助理的幫忙請問我們的質詢我們的法案我們的預算審查我們的選民服務我們所有跟專家學者民間團體的討論甚至是我們所有今天每一天在立法院所發生的事情都需要國會助理不是嗎而當國會助理的錢全部都要打包給立法委員是人民納稅的錢在這裡劃的"},{"start":9300.689,"end":9316.974,"text":"每一年8.5億的錢全部打包給113個立法委員然後造成一種私吞公帑的狀況然後還不用單據我就不知道問不用單據要怎麼核銷我都不想問後面的主計之類的我就問怎麼核銷"},{"start":9319.608,"end":9335.925,"text":"然後這些錢還不是只有立法委員還有議員的部分陳玉珍這一次修法更殘忍的是他把地方議員的部分一起提進來的也就是說陳玉珍他他認為他是做好人他私下跟我聊天說他在做好人他在救很多人"},{"start":9336.886,"end":9366.586,"text":"好人做到滿不是只有中央的民意代表連地方議員的助理費一併提案而那個費用來到29.8億所以全台灣人的納稅錢每年將近40億全部直接打包給民意代表放進他的私人賬戶問號因為剛你們也沒有解釋清楚到底要放哪裡去然後這些錢不用單據核銷不用公開透明不用跟國人報告這些錢用到哪裡去了"},{"start":9368.072,"end":9371.748,"text":"這就是陳玉珍修法的現況身為法治局的專業 你怎麼看"},{"start":9375.371,"end":9401.63,"text":"跟委員報告我是第三屆就進來立法院我在立法院將近大概滿30年太好了我也認識很多公會助理其實我的內心是覺得委員跟助理是一個很緊密的關係太好了 內心這一段多講一點現在目前的一些我也認識很多很優秀的助理是對 這些助理對委員的問政其實幫很多所以我們都一直希望超熱"},{"start":9402.37,"end":9427.804,"text":"保障助理的角度因為這是委員的提案這個工會助理的事務這個業務不是我們法律裡辦相關的執行細節真的要問人事單位我在立法院將近30年我看到很多委員的助理都非常的優秀協助委員的問政我覺得現在目前對助理制度的保障我是覺得還是不大夠"},{"start":9428.744,"end":9448.337,"text":"大聲一點來因為你剛剛戴口罩剛剛這段話拜託你重複一遍根據你的內心話你認為光是現在的制度對於現任的公費助理保障都已經不夠了對不對對我對不對我再問一次對不對我是蠻贊同我們院長講的就是說應該這個委員跟助理是一個國會的一個核心的"},{"start":9449.177,"end":9473.183,"text":"領域 我們一起來共同維護立法權太好了 我們今天總算聽到您的真心話剛都沒有委員叫你上來但我就很想聽真心話謝謝你用30年的經驗告訴這些提案的委員到現在還不肯撤案的委員我們來看下一張 哪些人我們先直接跳下一張這些人我不要為難你 我幫你唸"},{"start":9478.049,"end":9498.779,"text":"提案人陳玉珍不管是立法院組織法或是地方民意代表費用連署的人這些人還想出來選縣市首長當他們在當民意代表的時候就已經決定這樣苛刻自己的助理我難以想像這些人當上地方首長之後他會如何對待他的幕僚如何對待他每天幫他賣命付出"},{"start":9499.699,"end":9528.999,"text":"的人林思敏要選舉蘇清泉可能也要選舉盧憲一鄭振前丁薛忠高進素美陳雪生邱振軍洪孟凱黃仁鄭天才馬文君謝龍介呂玉玲邱若驊陳超明徐宇珍游皓葛如君翁曉琳廖先祥羅明才林倩琪徐欣盈楊瓊英林德福張家俊"},{"start":9529.979,"end":9557.378,"text":"委員的名字都在上面了我幫你念完了我現在公開呼籲陳玉珍你要不要撤案請你趕快做出說明不要說出模擬兩可的話甚至還打算摸頭公費助理還有助理公會的幹部說可以討論但不撤案我沒有辦法接受這個說法第二我也想要公開呼籲這些委員你們可以撤簽"},{"start":9558.779,"end":9576.639,"text":"當然現在因為已經送到委員會了撤簽必須要提案委員的認可所以我不知道陳玉珍會不會施壓給這些簽名的委員不讓他們撤簽但我認為不論是撤案或是撤簽都是所謂的回頭試案"},{"start":9578.681,"end":9606.684,"text":"不要再讓公費助理承受更多不公平的對待而陳玉珍甚至還荒謬跟傅坤祺說這是進步法案我就問哪裡進步他們還說美國都是這樣來我請教您在您的報告當中有研究到各國的法制對嗎你要不要告訴我在美國所謂的一大包打包給國會議員相關的配套是什麼"},{"start":9608.291,"end":9623.572,"text":"你可以告訴我嗎可以請您說明嗎 在您的報告裡面你不用照念 你只要大概告訴我因為陳玉珍跟傅昆奇一直在對外瞎講說美國也是這樣做的我其實有研究我也可以說 但我想聽聽您的說法"},{"start":9625.293,"end":9645.686,"text":"因為美國是一個總統制的國家其實我們現在的公會助理的主要制度是模仿美國的制度我們這邊的收集的文獻資料現在美國的眾議院他的助理他全職 最多可以聘到18人"},{"start":9647.881,"end":9665.811,"text":"他的全職至多可以聘到18人是全職至多聘到18人那費用是怎麼給的他的費用我們做一個統計在2022年這邊的費用他眾議員他的助理的費用我們平均大概是17.9萬"},{"start":9668.649,"end":9689.995,"text":"那怎麼給的嗎 給助理還是給老闆 給國會議員他那個也是一個給眾議員一個統籌去分配的那個概念給了這個統籌之後可是他要負擔據負擔據太好了 要負擔據除此之外呢我是說美國這邊美國對我說美國負擔據大概就這樣子 他要負擔據"},{"start":9693.226,"end":9719.528,"text":"然後如果沒有用完呢公開報表要公開報表太好了負擔據公開報表還有呢如果沒有用完呢這邊是因為它是一個給中研統籌的概念好 那我來解釋一下意思就是說你的研究跟我查到資料是一樣的一 所有的國會議員拿到這一大包我剛剛說的每一個人一年拿到多少錢拿到"},{"start":9721.029,"end":9741.078,"text":"700多萬嘛 按照你們現在的預算表17.9萬沒有 我說我們台灣啦每一個立法委員如果按照陳玉珍這個提案修法之後我們每一個人會拿到700多萬然後呢 這個統包如果用到美國現在的配套一 他要有單據核銷二 相關的單據核銷必須要上網公開透明"},{"start":9742.178,"end":9766.929,"text":"讓全民可以檢視得以向納稅人報告所以不是你立法委員要怎麼用就怎麼用這個叫做所謂的配套可是在我們台灣的立法院可能會有一個荒謬的狀況你聽聽看因為之前在提法院直播的時候相關的配套羅志強跟黃國昌就說你們司法院可以去訂配套結果訂了配套之後他們又不高興又要給人家翻桌又要給人家翻案然後又要修法所以連配套他們不滿意都可以修立法委員這麼大"},{"start":9771.431,"end":9782.899,"text":"大道可以提一個自肥的法案 然後相關的配套不滿意 又可以翻桌所以我現在公開呼籲陳玉珍 傅坤祺 請你們停止撤回這樣的法案 最後我要說"},{"start":9784.488,"end":9800.341,"text":"有人標榜自己是清新的立委有人標榜自己是了不起的立委有一個人叫黃國昌在第十一屆工都盟給予的這個承諾書裡面第十一屆立委國會改革承諾書黃國昌很了不起的在政下方簽名"},{"start":9801.542,"end":9828.753,"text":"其中有一條叫做什麼呢叫做積極訂定國會助理專法明定助理地位職責聘用資格權力保障等規定杜絕詐領及挪用助理費用很好黃國昌你簽名了但很可惜我在黃委員今天的質詢當中沒有聽到他對這件事情的表態甚至今天所有在野黨的委員上台質詢也都沒有對陳玉珍的法案有所表態我要說非常的遺憾我希望這些委員不要成為幫兇"},{"start":9829.813,"end":9852.978,"text":"曾經簽過這張公開承諾書的黃國昌也不要忘記了你對國人的承諾對自己的承諾我也希望法治局跟副秘書長你們一定要秉持幕僚的專業跟良心讓你們的院長有最好的建議讓他有機會去跟陳玉珍 傅坤祺提出撤案跟撤簽 謝謝好 謝謝陳培宇委員那我們因為今天啊"},{"start":9860.173,"end":9881.204,"text":"這個一樓 我們韓院長今天 還有我們院長召集了朝野協商針對114年中央政府他的附屬單位他的這個整個預算 他的一個綜合表 總計還有選罷法 還有年金 還有青年基本法所以我看 每一位委員 我剛剛看宗家兵委員這樣照照照 照到川伯伯"},{"start":9883.105,"end":9910.528,"text":"這讓我們今天的會議進行會很困難因為變成說各個委員會裡面今天幾乎都是朝野協商這個是一個重頭戲所以很多委員登記的或者說沒有到場的我們也都必須要體諒他們我們也必須要體諒這些官員們現在先休息五分鐘好不好五分鐘讓大家上一下洗手間你休息一下"},{"start":10215.318,"end":10235.105,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來我們請諮詢委員張雅玲 張雅玲委員不在范雲 范雲委員不在沈發慧 沈發慧委員不在接下來請鍾嘉斌委員來做懸檔"},{"start":10240.485,"end":10253.263,"text":"主席 財長委員先進列席的政府機關署長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生而我們首先還是要邀請包括法務部的洪司長然後我們這個主計總處的陳副主計長"},{"start":10256.067,"end":10282.199,"text":"副主席長我們立法院的張副秘書長張副秘以及法治局的郭局長郭局長好 首先我先請教一下張副秘書長過去你曾經在立法院擔任過秘書長以外的職務嗎法治局法治局很好那麼你擔任過未來有可能當秘書長所以要了解一下秘書長的工作我請教一下秘書長有要參與到朝野協商議程的制定嗎"},{"start":10284.451,"end":10308.383,"text":"或者你需不需要參與就你所知有沒有就我所知的話如果院長認為他需要參加應該就必須要參加所以今天兩件事情我們的秘書長說今天院長九點排朝野協商討論的議題都涉及到司法法治委員會跟教育委員會明知這兩個委員會今天有會議但是他說他個人沒有參與到這些議題的責定"},{"start":10309.904,"end":10332.372,"text":"所以他不曉得這不是議程不是他排的9點開會要討論那些議題跟我們兩個會衝堂不是他的原因你認可這樣的談話嗎我無權發表對 你無權發表好 但是你也提到了如果祕書長如果院長要他去參與朝野議場他就要去對不對那本委員會審到立法院的法案有沒有義務要來這邊列席備詢"},{"start":10336.267,"end":10356.856,"text":"英法應該是要不過因為主席已經准假了所以我這邊就不再追究了我要說明的是我們一個媽保秘書長為了不敢來這裡備詢還特別讓我們院長排朝野協商故意跟這裡充堂小朋友不想上學又怕被寄礦客拜託爸爸媽媽給他出一張去醫院的請假單實在是丟臉了好 開始來問來"},{"start":10361.238,"end":10374.249,"text":"我們新聞下捍衛助理權益我們立委絕不出席我想這個大家就清楚看到了在下一張我們來看補助私房錢的話我先來請教一下副主席長陳副主席長主席長補助款在我們的政府預算科目它需不需要檢據核銷"},{"start":10382.383,"end":10403.041,"text":"就是依照我們會計法的規定就是我們還是必須要有原始憑證對所以如果要免除檢據平銷檢據核銷一定要定在法律把它豁免掉對不對如果沒有頂這一條補助費如果一般要我們來邊預算邊要補助款是不是都會要求要檢據核銷"},{"start":10404.144,"end":10427.918,"text":"就是说会要求减拒原始凭证这个拒就是说这个简单讲啦如果法律没有写免减拒核销假如法律没有写特别标注不用减拒核销的话你们组织的作业补助款会不会要求要提供原始凭证我们不论只要公款都要原始凭证很好谢谢来副审计长对不起请副审计长上来李副审计长"},{"start":10431.227,"end":10454.799,"text":"請問一下如果今天政府預算編的是補助款等到你們審計的時候你們發現他沒有付原始憑證你們會准嗎都是要付原始如果沒有付的話只是那個包委員就是如果主委總署最對特別的個別的科目他有時候可以簡化那個原始憑證簡化但是還有所以"},{"start":10455.499,"end":10471.667,"text":"特別在法律裡面排除一般補助款必須要付原始憑證以便我們的主計跟審計作業把它排除就是想做壞事啦簡單講是這樣子啦如果沒有打算做壞事何必排除我們法律的一般適用呢好 謝謝兩位來 我們來看一下我們來問法治局局長上一頁 上一頁 下一頁"},{"start":10480.951,"end":10500.249,"text":"這裡面修正條文說本來立法委員的公費助理是8到14人改為若干人請問若干人是幾人若干人是幾個人我是問你嘛 若干人幾個人若干嘛 一般實務上一個算不算若干人一個算不算若干人"},{"start":10501.377,"end":10526.769,"text":"他还是包括在若干人好 一个包括在若干人100个包括在若干人当中100个有没有包括在若干人当中法理文字 你是法治局局长啊包括嘛 对不对大声的说有没有包括100个到100个都是一个到100个都是若干人嘛他是一个抽象的法律概念对 一个抽象法律概念一个到100个都是所以这样的修法立法委员可以拼多少他可以拼100个助理啊"},{"start":10528.002,"end":10550.262,"text":"200個助理 若干人可是這個助理是不是便當助理是不是要他支付費用 沒有寫沒有寫 他責治助理多少人然後有委員聘用 要不要付錢也沒寫然後原條文是寫說治公費助理8到14人很清楚這些助理是領責的錢公費助理領責的錢 是不是領你的錢"},{"start":10552.335,"end":10577.601,"text":"是領國家的錢對不對是領國家的錢 立法院的預算對不對現在你們這樣改成助理若干人這個助理由委員聘用需不需要領公立法院的預算這個不是我們改的啦我不是問你嘛 我說改了之後會怎麼樣嘛這個公會助理要問人事處不是啦 我是說你是法治局嘛如果條文這樣寫助理若干人由委員聘用他的薪水會不會是立法院付"},{"start":10579.841,"end":10600.246,"text":"會不會是立法院務有嗎 有寫嗎他是補助各委員立法院預算編給委員假如說沒有公費助理了要新的修正條文寫委員聘用助理沒有寫是公費那立委這些助理跟誰領錢沒有規定"},{"start":10602.626,"end":10627.382,"text":"立法院編的預算是給誰 給委員 寫得明明白白嘛所以這些人員到底是親朋好友 黑道還是境外勢力他有沒有遵守勞基法 你們也管不到 對不對 聘用助理你們現在的公費助理 立法院是不是雇主針對委員聘哪些助理 我們目前當然也沒辦法管啦不是 聘用權在他啦 你們報上來有沒有個資 有沒有身分證明"},{"start":10631.263,"end":10650.431,"text":"有沒有勞健保你們不審核你們有沒有這個資料我現在沒有問你人事資料是你問的啦我沒有問你這個啦我是問你說若干人委員聘用立法院要付錢條文這樣寫你是法治局局長啊知不知道我是問你法治局的問題啊下一頁"},{"start":10652.214,"end":10681.346,"text":"來我們看一下補助四方化就是這樣子免減拒核銷而且不限助理費用請問一下法治條文這樣寫不限助理費用立法院補助給委員聘助理的費用統籌運用他寫不限於不限於是不是可以用在別的地方可不可以用來養小三可不可以用來買豪車法律條文這樣寫法治局可不可以這樣做有沒有規定不可以講不出來嘛"},{"start":10684.642,"end":10707.95,"text":"所以往下看所以原來我們的公費助理有一個任用法的草案他說遴選資訊接入訓練規定都要寫要自公費助理名冊我先問來 人事處黃處長目前公費助理有沒有名冊有沒有名冊在你那裡有 那委員送過來了非公費助理有沒有名冊"},{"start":10709.195,"end":10737.948,"text":"沒有名冊之前陳玉珍說找了一個人跑來我們立法院我們說這個是媒體他有沒有記者證一查他好像登記媒體可是他又出在現媒體不應該出現的地方陳玉珍說那是他聘的助理你知道這件事情嗎媒體上有看過好 那你知道那個人是不是陳玉珍的助理我們那邊的名字沒有你們的資料沒有對好 請回我們 來所以來 郭局長再請教你"},{"start":10740.649,"end":10762.716,"text":"所以今天你認為公費助理任用法草案是否比較有效的可以建立助理的制度你認為有沒有比較有效我們都尊重委員的我問你嘛 你法治局是不是訂一個專法內容可以再修改 可以再精進訂一個專法有沒有對公費助理的制度比較有一個法律的保障基本上要從"},{"start":10764.181,"end":10784.732,"text":"立法院組織法來改還是我沒有問你立法院組織法我只問說為了公衛助理的制度化我們訂一個任用專法你知不支持你知不支持我都尊重委員的提案我先問你局長嘛你是法治局嘛你知不支持我們公衛助理制度化你認為一個任用專法比較有保障你認不認同"},{"start":10786.141,"end":10810.093,"text":"不然我要說你不認同喔基本上我都尊重我們各個委員的提案一直跳針要保障公衛制度你法治局長如果敢說訂專法沒有幫助你講講看有沒有幫助我們尊重委員的提案你看他一直跳針尊重委員你哪一個案子不是尊重委員提案法治局的報告是不是你提的法治局這個什麼報告"},{"start":10810.834,"end":10830.721,"text":"好 那不管了 往下好 所以告訴你們來 那個我們法制司司長根據憲法499如果目前的修改立法院組織法讓委員可以增加可支配的統籌運用的費用這算不算對委員本身的權益是增加的"},{"start":10832.113,"end":10845.074,"text":"我不是 我先問你 我剛剛講的話如果修了組織法讓立法委員統籌運用的經費多了七八百萬這樣的法案的修法的實質結果是不是造成委員本身的權益的增加"},{"start":10847.386,"end":10872.465,"text":"我們應該是從法條跟它的修法理由來觀看那如同我們法務部的書面報告中針對這部分有做說明法條雖然只寫補助但是它在修法理由中有寫成實質薪資的一部分那針對這個部分的話我們也有提及就是應該要參酌司法院4-499號解釋文的意旨做這方面的一個迴避的一個規定這樣子"},{"start":10874.141,"end":10887.128,"text":"好 迴避是說如果通過了也是下屆試用嘛是的 好是不是下屆試用好 來 法治師是這樣說下屆試用好 那他這個修法呢不是只是自肥啊他還要脫罪啊"},{"start":10888.208,"end":10905.058,"text":"是不是 他還想要脫罪請問一下目前紀署法院審理或偵辦中如果之前因為原來的立法院組織法立委涉及侵占助理的薪資被現在調查起訴或審理中的"},{"start":10906.155,"end":10917.108,"text":"立法院組織法做了這樣修改之後是不是他們之前修法前所違的這些侵占助理費的罪行就可以因此而免除追究有沒有這個效果"},{"start":10918.735,"end":10934.141,"text":"委員所詢問的主要應該是針對刑法第二條貪污自罪條例不是貪污自罪條例而是刑法第二條有關於行為後法律有變動那是不是可以從有利於行為人的解釋有沒有產生那個效果結論很簡單來講是沒有沒有 好因為這個不是貪污自罪條例構成要解的反應"},{"start":10940.043,"end":10955.294,"text":"这样的行为就算是修法后被认为不是去侵占就是说这个行为已经是他实质心智一部分了但是修法后的法是往后生效不会去改变他当时所行为时候的行为性质 是不是这样"},{"start":10956.394,"end":10981.841,"text":"就我剛才講刑法第二條的行為後法律有變動那個法律在目前實務見解最高法院見解是認為現行法法律也就是構成要件的那這個組織法的修改改變了助理會成為立委的實質薪酬會不會改變他們之前基於貪污的目的意圖去侵占立委的薪資這樣的行為可以免除後來刑法或者說貪污治罪條例的追訴"},{"start":10983.228,"end":11005.333,"text":"簡單的講就是說貪污治罪條例的構成要件並沒有改變那即便立法院組織法有變更了以後那是一個構成要件前提事實的變更這不會適用到刑法第二條也不會產生剛剛講的那個改變的效果好 謝謝今天我們可以做結論了往下看所以不管是處心積慮的要擺脫我們審計主計的規範想要免檢據核銷就是想要污錢"},{"start":11011.567,"end":11039.433,"text":"而且還在立法說明說這是實質薪資的一部分而且也造成了立法委員僱用的助理不受到立法院的監督包括他的身份資格的查核最後我們看一下所以請法治局針對助理費統籌運用是否違憲提出法規應驗書法治局局長 郭局長你可以做嗎你是法治局喔"},{"start":11040.356,"end":11047.376,"text":"我們寫要求助理費統籌運用 有無違憲就是違反499你們提出個法律見解 可以嗎"},{"start":11048.513,"end":11071.426,"text":"我們已經看到法務部的意見了我想看你的意見根本包括我們只能做法案評估啦好 那請評估那請將法務部所說的有抵觸限制4-499這樣的一個可能要下屆才能適用既然下屆適用他當然我們很清楚他要挪威適用他也沒有辦法擺脫貪污自治條例的追溯那這個部分呢"},{"start":11072.945,"end":11087.321,"text":"這個部分 不要再為難你了來 法制司長針對這個部分可不可以把你們剛剛的意見更完整的表達一下因為你們今天的書面報告沒有寫到這一點可以請你們補一個報告嗎"},{"start":11091.906,"end":11111.404,"text":"不曉得委員是真我們書面報告中是有講到就是參酌499號我不是講499 我講第二項就是說與貪污自罪條例的關係挪威私用目前我們就算組織法改了之前已經 我就剛剛問你的問題嘛之前已經因涉犯"},{"start":11112.469,"end":11133.599,"text":"利用職務上之機會榨取財務這些被貪污自罪條例跟來起訴的這些前立委是不是會因為本法的修改後就免於追訴請表達意見 可以嗎針對剛剛委員所講的就我剛剛有講就是不會改變目前曾審討的請把你剛剛的意見用書面的方式提供可以好 謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":11137.173,"end":11140.714,"text":"好謝謝鍾嘉賓委員的詢答大家辛苦了那其實從今天的詢答我是覺得很可惜了密蘇蘇這個地方就沒有把你們自己的立場來做一個捍衛今天大家關注的一個法案那很多委員"},{"start":11157.498,"end":11183.249,"text":"沒有來其實我們也很清楚今天剛好同一時間召開四個法案的一個朝野協商大家都會比較忙但是我想必須主席這個地方正式來提出一點小小的一個看法至於這個法案成為這個法案在立法院對你們秘書處來講的話你們當然或者各行政部門認為說是尊重立法院最後的一個審議但是"},{"start":11185.45,"end":11207.538,"text":"如果說你先把那個整個你是一個中立的官員的話你其實內心你們會有自己的一個底線這個叫民脂民膏老百姓的納稅錢民脂民膏你說在立法院把它修法不受任何法律的規範就可以把它變成立法委員的私帳"},{"start":11208.723,"end":11228.628,"text":"你們說這個叫尊重立法院這個開什麼玩笑那我們今天所登記的所有登記委員的發言都已經完畢那詢答結束委員質詢的時候要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":11229.688,"end":11249.395,"text":"那委員羅志強吳佩奕審發會所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來做答覆那本次會議我們就進行到此議程討論事項未及處理的部分所以我們就另期再繼續審查現在散會謝謝大家辛苦了"},{"start":11268.902,"end":11270.624,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"166362","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166362","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b125bc4188111074afb5fe7457644078f06cb862312e5c4d1f176963589987de955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:17:48 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那我們一切都是依法雖然我認為上次這個衝衝修法那針對所謂叫做什麼叫做重啟什麼叫做再運轉講得不清不楚並沒有強化安全因為這個法很多都是舊的那但是呢依照現在的法規如果台電送出再運轉計畫河安會必須審查以下六項文件沒錯嗎主委 這個六項文件沒錯吧"},{"start":94.289,"end":102.761,"text":"沒有錯那這個第六個其他經主管機關指定的文件目前你們有指定什麼文件嗎第六項"},{"start":105.137,"end":133.538,"text":"前面就是老化等等當然監委已經告訴大家就是監委的報告談到跟地震相關的安全評估也請參考第六項其他經主管機關指定的文件你們決定了沒有跟委員說明前面我們是參考美國的換照的申請必須要提出來的文件另外我們也考量國內的管制的重點包括輻射相關議題跟耐震這部分"},{"start":134.238,"end":162.387,"text":"那這個第六項是什麼內容我今天有詳細的想要跟你們討論確定您剛剛講是依照就是美國的標準如果是依照2024年美國政府問責署那他的美國核能管理委員會有提到要充分考慮氣候變遷的潛在影響高溫乾旱野火等等這個部分那台灣這是講的是一般性對不對台灣的部分"},{"start":163.948,"end":181.725,"text":"2013年歐盟的河岸管制組織來台同行審查的時候就有提到關鍵風險應該要全面更新自然災害的評估特別是地震海嘯他們認為台灣的地震海嘯"},{"start":182.426,"end":200.45,"text":"的風險而且是複合式的非常的高特別是河山所在地斷層要更精細的研究那低震度後也要檢查建議我們重新評估斷層與地震的危害所以根據這個部分這個報告那個主委有看過嗎這個歐盟的河岸管制組織來台灣的時候給的建議不知道主委有沒有看過"},{"start":210.359,"end":238.642,"text":"我自己是没有看过那请主委再去看一下因为美国的这个部分是指一个一般性的那欧盟的这个核安管制组织给我们是针对台湾现在做的当时做的所以呢根据那个内容我这次为了就是质询特别再看了一次专家十年前就建议有三项重点要纳入第一个极端天然灾害地震海啸水灾台风第二个"},{"start":239.462,"end":267.979,"text":"喪失安全系統因為外部因素導致喪失電力的處理方式第三個嚴重事故的處理核災發生的時候你有可能道路斷裂或者是地震專業人員無法及時抵達的處理機制何恩惠是不是可以把你們剛剛的有一個依法的其他經主管機關指定的文件把這三項也納入請他們提供然後你們再專業審查可以嗎"},{"start":269.666,"end":295.266,"text":"跟委员说明那有关于当时候欧盟专家所提的意见那核安会已经整理核管案件那也持续在办理那针对耐震的这一部分那我们也特别关注就是把它纳进来也就是说要求台电公司机组如果要继续运转的时候要针对地震的可能危害那以及包括相关的安全防务都要纳入整体的评估来确保整个机组"},{"start":297.326,"end":314.431,"text":"我知道光地震这一项监察委员的报告今年11月田秋景等赵永青蔡崇义三位监委的报告就讲到地震的风险刚刚张亚林委员也有提到就是说耐震非常的不足所以这些东西都必须要提供"},{"start":316.192,"end":343.209,"text":"那这部分所涉及的可能的危害包括地震海啸这部分都有纳进来都有纳进来所以都会请他们依照这三项都会纳入审查没错吧这个有关于是电力的那个你讲的一些语言因为我们不是专业未必懂这三项欧洲专家十年前就建议的这三项重点这一次都会请他们提供然后纳入审核吧你只要说会还是不会"},{"start":343.869,"end":368.115,"text":"都有納入相關說明在會後給我報告好嗎這是關於審查的部分我們再次確定核安零風險今天我們還沒有機會講的重啟三條件核廢有解方核安零風險第三個社會有共識依照你們的專業理解核廢現在有解方嗎有或沒有"},{"start":373.483,"end":387.278,"text":"主委有或没有现在何非因为这个议题会一直持续进行中对现在连高阶的联法都还没出来目前有些国家处理方式很多人还认为不是最理想"},{"start":388.502,"end":403.197,"text":"有或没有解放台湾我们不能够送给其他的国家处理台湾有没有解放台湾现在选举条例都还没有对嘛连条例都没出来高阶的专法都没出来所以到目前为止没有解放好"},{"start":404.218,"end":428.552,"text":"那再來我想要提一下危機來臨的時候核安風險那個主委您知道這個車諾比核電廠雖然就是他本身已經大家知道車諾比事件之後都已經停下來了那可是還是被無人機攻擊所以他的防護罩被損壞失去了主要的安全功能那烏克蘭"},{"start":429.772,"end":447.265,"text":"剛剛也都有委員講到扎波羅熱核電廠是歐洲最大的核電廠不斷的遇到就是斷電的問題而且它也沒有辦法成為備電的這個暫時的備電電源這個部分就是主委都知道吧對"},{"start":449.397,"end":475.625,"text":"但是我针对这个议题跟核安会请教过核安会给我的报告不知道为什么你们的报告内容完全认为不会有任何的风险然后详细列了第一个你们认为我们的核电厂在战争的时候据说不会成为攻击的目标针对战争风险的准备列了11点都是场内的应变只有在第10点提到"},{"start":476.405,"end":502.317,"text":"由核子事故中央災害應變中心統籌國家救援能量協助 結合全民防衛動員體系請問你們真的有跟全民防衛動員體系一起討論嗎這本裡面我翻了半天完全沒有如果發生烏克蘭的情況或者是像車諾堡的這部分到底附近的居民該怎麼處理"},{"start":505.263,"end":524.29,"text":"今天不管是停役或是重啟都有同样的风险为什么里面都没有核灾发生的时候该怎么处理报告委员在小局说的第12页有针对核子事故的一个应变第12页我现在看了是我看不懂吗第12页的下方"},{"start":525.143,"end":550.345,"text":"下方只有三行停電立即進入室內關閉門窗打開電視機政府會在適當時機發佈民眾配合措施如舒散服用點片等因為這個是第一階段最緊急的時候要請民眾進到室內去作業所以我們恆春人或新北人台北人只值得這三行字"},{"start":552.662,"end":572.596,"text":"那如果他在外面被輻射塵沾到了回家之後應該怎麼樣現在你可以告訴我報告委員如果外面有輻射塵我們也是請民眾趕快進到室內去做掩蔽那因為輻射塵就是要洗手洗臉把它清掉之後那這裡面有告訴大家要洗手洗臉嗎"},{"start":573.616,"end":588.688,"text":"因為小局書的部分是針對比較全民的我們另外還有核子事故的應變指南好 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有效的這個立場來說明給民眾了解 解除他們的疑慮所以 縱觀我們剛才的徐耕達主委是說95%的這個沒有使用到的這些燃料可以再次來回收使用那麼 第四代反應爐用這樣的回收的燃料棒來使用是可行的技術 是嗎"},{"start":179.611,"end":204.163,"text":"是的 理智上可行的謝謝主委我想請教主委烏俄戰爭已經持續很多年那位於烏克蘭東南部的這個扎波羅勒核電廠也一再的被國際的原子能總署示警恐怕存在安全疑慮那扎波羅勒核電廠目前是沒有在運的本身的電廠反應爐是沒有在運轉的"},{"start":204.943,"end":234.41,"text":"但是他們會需要電力系統來維持這個冷卻跟安全的系統以防止這個反應爐發生融毀的這個現象進而引發核子事故那這幾個月呢陸續有傳出這個紮波羅勒核電廠受到戰爭的影響會有斷電的情形例如他們的那個柴油發電機的電線就被人為破壞那相關的這個電力系統出了問題那如果這個斷電的情形一直持續"},{"start":235.69,"end":250.857,"text":"这个扎波罗勒核电厂这个有可能发生核子事故这个时间就是如果它断电多久可能会引发核子事故就要计算才知道不过断电久确实会引起核发事故"},{"start":251.482,"end":275.339,"text":"因為它雖然電場反應爐是沒有運作的它這個冷卻系統還是一直必須要持續的在維持它這個安全那如果它真的因為戰爭的影響很不幸的在這個電力中斷的時間過長真的造成這個反應爐有問題也發生了核安事件的時候會不會影響到我們台灣民眾的安全"},{"start":279.289,"end":291.633,"text":"距離是蠻遠的像上次車諾比事件的話台灣也隔好久才偵測到它直接影響到歐洲地區會比較馬上會有影響因為台灣跟這顆核電廠的距離讓我們會有一些緩衝跟比較可以自保的一些措施盡快來做"},{"start":301.736,"end":326.078,"text":"那核安會呢你們有沒有建立緊急的應變措施因為戰爭真的是我們無可去預料它什麼時候會發生怎樣的事情如果真的不幸有這個電廠發生的核子事故那對於核電廠附近周邊會影響到的這些區域的範圍有進口到我們台灣的商品我們會不會有機制馬上進行管制"},{"start":326.838,"end":343.109,"text":"台電已經訂了面應軍事威脅下確保核安準備與應變計畫及相關程序書並透過年度的核安演習的訓練精進已經有了 我們已經做好準備我的意思是說雖然這個紮波羅勒核電廠離我們很遠"},{"start":346.912,"end":372.894,"text":"萬一發生了河岸事故不會立即的危害到台灣民眾的健康但是在他那周邊周圍的一些相關的商品如果我們台灣是有進口的他可能是會有這個輻射感染疑慮的我們會不會有這樣的機制這樣子的對應變的措施對周邊的這些商品進行管制有這樣的機制嗎食藥署應對這方面會有邊境的管制"},{"start":373.154,"end":399.483,"text":"我们有这样的建议给他们吗已经有这个制度建立了因为河安会你们是管理就是对于这个部分你们是专业所以有需要有这样的机制来启动的时候即便他的职责职权可能是在食药署但是河安会你们这边是有你们的义务跟你们的责任是要告知跟启动这样的机制吧请组长回答一下"},{"start":401.642,"end":418.347,"text":"就是我們會如同那個過去處理福島河事故的一個經驗那第一個時間因為他們的一個空服污染可能會造成人員就是我們國人在歐洲可能會有一些污染或者是物品的污染我們會在機場成立那個門框偵檢器"},{"start":420.308,"end":439.552,"text":"然後來協助一些污染的清除那至於像是一些食品或者是物品的那就是我們就是跨部會的一個合作就像食藥署過去也曾經針對日本進口食品一直來進行那個邊境的一個管制那我們這邊會提供相關的偵檢的技術服務"},{"start":442.913,"end":470.445,"text":"您是组长吗是谢谢组长您也预先回答了我下一个要问的问题那我再重复一下我刚才问的当然您也回答了就因为核安会你们是专业的你们对于这个核能安全核子安全这个部分的管制跟研究你们是专业的所以在其他部门虽然职责可能是在食药署或在其他胃环或是其他的部门但是你们有这样的专业你们必须要去启动这样机制去以你们专业来"},{"start":472.026,"end":475.692,"text":"告知來通知來啟動這樣的機制是由你們來啟動吧"},{"start":479.067,"end":502.803,"text":"是嗎 報告委員我們這部分不會說是我們啟動但是我們就是會跨部會的一個溝通協調像我們會提供一些技術那剛才組長您也說了包括我們在那附近的我們的台灣的國人如果有旅居他是在念書或者其他商務的需求或是在當地的我們的國人我們也會有其他的一些機制來啟動保護他們"},{"start":504.464,"end":533.123,"text":"這個我們都會及時的跟我們外交相關的人員來一起就是關心我們國人的健康這個是你們職責吧但是這也是你們的專業所以我會希望說就是因為現在有戰爭在發生中所以說對這個核電廠相關的安全的疑慮如果我們能夠做得更周全希望給我們民眾一個有比較有保障的就是說我們其實是隨時在關注相關的情況"},{"start":534.304,"end":562.356,"text":"那我再請教一下關於核電的議題討論度現在很高的就是關於核二核三會不會重啟的問題那台電是預計明年3月會送核安會來審議在討論重啟之前本期這邊有關於核廢料存放的問題要先請教核安會核二廠跟核三廠都有規劃興建室內乾儲場那木砌也在招標中而且其中核二廠已經招標第三次請問這是什麼原因"},{"start":563.813,"end":568.68,"text":"跟委員報告核二廠的部分室內乾儲已經在前天結標"},{"start":570.454,"end":592.4,"text":"所以這次有順利的有順利的標出去了那河山廠的部分因為他第一次的招標不足三家沒有辦法達到那個工程會的要求所以他會再開二標第二次招標就對了那好 既然河二廠已經完成了這個招標的程序那請問預計什麼時候會這個騎乘你們訂出來了嗎什麼時候完工這個"},{"start":598.55,"end":615.564,"text":"掌握在原能會的部分,我們建造直造大概會省一年半,這個一二廠我們都有經驗,那試運轉計畫省四個月,運轉直造省四個月,這個是我們核安會可以掌握的,那其他工程部分那就要台中公司自己來掌握。"},{"start":616.677,"end":631.835,"text":"所以你們是在關於這個審核的部分是你們那其他的這個部分你們跟相關的單位我希望說你們給我一份你們的期程你們到時候送一份資料到我辦公室來那我還是要強調其實核廢料還有"},{"start":633.837,"end":661.912,"text":"后续的中期组织跟最终组织的问题如果我们没有办法妥善的处理核废料的问题我们要贸然的使用核电这真的是非常的危险尤其是中期的处置场跟最终处置场这个选址问题一直都没有办法解决也没有办法取得共识所以我希望说未来我们在核安会在审查核二及核三在运转计划的时候必须将核废料的处置问题纳入考量"},{"start":662.742,"end":687.687,"text":"我們會要求台電公司來盡速其實核電運轉最重要最大必須面對的問題就是核廢料的儲值所以這個部分我希望說未來我們關於這個部分核二核三的再運轉計畫這個部分你們一定要很審慎那關於我剛剛提到的就是這個乾式儲存廠的這個相關期程你再送一份資料到我辦公室是好 以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝陳秀寶委員請光雲回座"}]}},{"id":"166350","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166350","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b1065ee2bb307b2bd0feb4e86bf6119d1246f29551fe3ea0e539e6445d9208886c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:48:10 - 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謝謝好 首先先請秘書長先請張副秘秘書長簽卡來 副秘書長先請張副秘"},{"start":18.681,"end":35.834,"text":"委員好是 張蜂蜜早安因為我剛剛聽了王逸川委員的質詢那麼我在想說您可能這個對於陳玉珍委員的提案不是那麼的了解那麼您我們先從憲刑法來講好了我們立法委員每一個委員至少要聘多少位助理8到14位對 8到14位那這次陳玉珍委員的提案裡面他並沒有講說"},{"start":46.101,"end":59.9,"text":"不能就是並沒有說是完全不不聘助理他要聘助理若干人那至於這個若干人到底是一定要有一個人嗎所以至少一定是一人以上"},{"start":61.061,"end":72.872,"text":"那麼是不是需要像現在八人以上或是未來有可能會調整成為其他譬如說最低像其他國家至少國會助理三人以上我覺得這都有討論的空間所以可能待會要請這個張富密可能再仔細研讀一下陳玉珍委員的提案那另外我要講的就是說今年"},{"start":82.1,"end":92.629,"text":"有關於立法委員聘用助理修法的提案只是一個委員的提案那縱使本席有連署那我只是認為說這樣的提案或許可以拿到或許之後有機會假設有進到委員會議裡面來討論大家可以有不同的版本集思廣益"},{"start":103.317,"end":106.762,"text":"那至於說這個陳玉珍委員裡面提案的內容是否妥適這本來立法院就很多討論的空間這並不是說是之後一定會以陳玉珍委員的提案版本通過坦白說以我個人的立場裡面有些內容我也不見得是贊同的"},{"start":121.139,"end":148.314,"text":"所以呢這個部分的話我想就是說待會張複密再回答其他委員的議題時候我建議就是說可能還可以再從這方面的角度然後來去做回應畢竟這個立法院不是某一個委員提出的版本就會照案通過的這是在大家都清楚的一件事情那當然今天討論到立法委員聘用助理的事情那以本席雖然說我在立法院我是之前的委員"},{"start":148.834,"end":153.617,"text":"跟莊委員跟我們在這個其他委員來比我是之前的委員但是我的確我從大學端我到了立法院我看到聘用助理的狀況我發現了一些問題而有些問題的確是制度面上的僵化或者是說現行法律制度上面的不足所以呢才引發了這麼多的爭議那本期在之前在擔任這個"},{"start":172.608,"end":183.536,"text":"立法院的這個集合委員會的時候我有提出來說希望立法院法治局可以針對立法委員國會議員以及助理的問題來進行研商所以為什麼今天大家會看到立法院法治局的這份報告他們說這是我當時我在集合委員會的時候我有提出來為什麼因為我想這邊請教張富民您在立法院非常多年了請問一下我們立法委員可以併任兼任助理嗎"},{"start":203.444,"end":219.033,"text":"目前都是專任助理都是專任助理 對不對我們不能拚任經驗助理或是我們也不能拚任工讀生明明就現在整個立法院立法委員的業務的面向非常多譬如說我可能只需要請一個終點的助理來幫我剪剪影片"},{"start":219.973,"end":243.847,"text":"拍拍照或是某個活動的時候需要有一個兼任part-time的人去幫忙可是問題是我現在我沒有辦法利用立法院的經費去支出我只能聘的都是專任助理那麼如果說我辦公室我有任何的業務上面我需要請教專家學者來諮詢或是我需要有一個小小的委託研究案請問我們現在立法委員有這樣的經費可以去支應嗎"},{"start":250.474,"end":253.931,"text":"這是我們個別分給我們的委員的辦公室的經費"},{"start":256.147,"end":283.896,"text":"似乎是沒有嘛 對不對 我們沒有類似這樣的經費可以運用所以這也是 不僅是我 還有其實蠻多的朝野不分藍綠白的委員們其實都有提出來說那就立法委員助理的聘用制度可不可以更為彈性 而且當然我們一定會基站在現在保障立法委員助理既有的權力上面去做調整"},{"start":284.756,"end":297.662,"text":"所以包含國會助理他說的維持原來的什麼文康費用 健檢費用或是其他這些勞權依照勞基法上面的權利不會有任何的改變所以今天這個工會助理們他們"},{"start":303.174,"end":311.06,"text":"有一些反彈有些可能不是很清楚的狀況我都能理解但是我在這裡我也要特別說明任何一個法律的修正絕對不會影響到具有助理的權益除非是他們認為他們自己可能不夠qualified不夠優秀可能擔心未來改變的時候可能立法委員可能不願意再聘用他們我覺得可能會有一些這樣子一個擔心考量"},{"start":330.754,"end":345.214,"text":"因為以我們現在立法院給這個立法就是立法院每年編列預算支應立法委員的助理費用至少要聘8個人但是他也就是40來萬左右 聘8個人平均一個人是多少錢 大概就5萬塊"},{"start":346.876,"end":367.108,"text":"我們如果要聘非常好的很優秀的國會助理其實這個錢是聘不到的所以為什麼一定要限縮在八個人坦白說我基本上是反對我認為說可能可以比照像是德國日本等等這些國會辦公室國會議員的辦公室至少聘三位以上那我可以聘會計師我可以聘律師我可以甚至聘這個很有專精的研究員"},{"start":373.652,"end":393.366,"text":"我可以給他很高的薪水 但是以我們現的薪資待遇來講不可能做到這一點我想我這邊講的不知道張富敏您在長期在立法院的觀察是不是就像我說的 我不可能就是聘低於八個人以下的這個助理"},{"start":395.197,"end":422.418,"text":"目前的法律來講委員當然是8到14位的公費助理所以說他依照法律應該就一定要聘助理至少8位那另外公費助理的部分我想兩個重點那院長也在媒體上也表達過了有關於公費助理的權益的部分一定要依法而且盡力來維護因為公費助理對委員的問政來講是一個非常非常重要的一個協助的力量"},{"start":422.998,"end":439.706,"text":"是的 沒錯對 所以這也是我一直認為說其實我們這個立院的國會助理的所有的這個他們的權益還有他們的各方面的能力其實都要提升都應該要提升好 那接下來當然就是比較回歸到法律面的這個問題我為什麼也支持這次的立法委員的聘用助理的這個議題應該要進行一些討論"},{"start":450.891,"end":477.776,"text":"因為確實現在立法院立法委員立法委員助理 國會助理這三角關係法律關係是不清不楚的我們這邊請勞動部勞動部有派員先請教複密我們現在立法委員助理就是立委助理那麼他的雇主到底是誰他雇主是委員"},{"start":478.57,"end":501.18,"text":"是委員 對 是委員但是呢 這個薪水又是由誰來發薪水實質上是委員的發那編列是由那個立法院編列好 所以說從立法院的角度認為講說是其實立法委員就是實際的雇主那既然我們是實際的雇主我們跟立委助理之間的關係是什麼是依照司法上面勞基法僱傭關係嗎"},{"start":505.915,"end":514.803,"text":"這個剛剛我在報告裡面有提到這是一個聘僱關係 聘僱契約關係就是勞僱關係嘛 聘僱契約關係不就是勞僱關係對 所以來請教勞動部在過去其實也曾經有發生過各地方的勞檢單位到立法委員辦公室來進行勞檢後來當然有可能發現有違規的處罰的單位是誰"},{"start":530.311,"end":549.701,"text":"處罰是立法院嗎處罰的是雇主因為雇主是委員所以就是他如果是違法的話那就會是處罰委員是那所以如果說是處罰如果說如果說是立法委員就是雇主的話那麼按照現在的公費助理或是國會私費助理他的會有差別嗎"},{"start":551.343,"end":569.477,"text":"就是大家知道現在其實很多的立法委員因為有各地方的服務區所以他也可能在現在的經費不足的情況之下他會用他自己的錢他也會去聘助理所以到底立法委員跟自己用錢聘的助理的關係跟我用這個立法院編列經費來支應的這個助理關係勞基法上其實他是不會去處理經費的來源"},{"start":576.442,"end":591.216,"text":"他其實只看僱傭關係是成立在委員跟勞工之間這裡在講的勞工其實是不管是公費助理或者是他其他聘僱關係的成立他的僱主就是委員本人好 謝謝勞動部的回答"},{"start":593.098,"end":605.127,"text":"那麼也因為很清楚今天這個立委助理跟僱主之間的跟立委之間的關係不管他的薪資來源從哪裡來基本他就是成立的就是司法上面依據勞基法的相關的這個僱傭關係勞僱官關係那麼但是呢大家要知道現在就立法委員助理來講因為他薪資來源如果說按照國會助理的他們這些訴求來說"},{"start":619.598,"end":632.984,"text":"這非常有可能就是讓他們成為所謂的委託型的公務員現在立法委員助理在國會拿所謂的公費助理他算不算是公務員請教張富敏他算是公務員嗎這個部分應該是法務部主管的法規來做解釋我跟你講這個在解釋上面就有空間嘛"},{"start":646.976,"end":654.337,"text":"如果說我們講說把公務員的這個定位分成他可能是身份型公務員還有什麼勞務型公務員啊等等啊那麼其實現在的立法院的國會助理他有可能會被定性為公務員所以一旦有任何的觸犯他可能立刻就跳到貪污自罪條例裡面去做處理這也不是我們作為立法委員我作為僱主我不願意看到的"},{"start":675.2,"end":701.536,"text":"這件事為什麼我現在基本上我認為說要很清楚的把這幾個關係理清楚現在外界會認為公費助理他的雇主真的就是立法委員嗎其實我們立法委員沒有那麼大的權利耶我所有的這個聘書還有這個每年每個月的薪資的更換我都要向立法院去做報備去做申請許可我要去更換"},{"start":702.817,"end":711.511,"text":"所以好像形式實質上我們是雇主但是名義上我們是不是真的是雇主還是我們只是立法院的人頭雇主而已"},{"start":713.223,"end":720.789,"text":"這關係很複雜這也是我認為說在趁著這次議題當然這個法案我們是不是要往前推進當然要看這個莊稍委要不要排案那我這裡我會再聆聽大家的意見那麼看看就是等到雙方助理公會還有社會大眾意見以及各部會立法院立法委員們的意見我們大家一起來及時廣義看看這樣的法案要不要繼續推進因為推進它基本代表一種改革那麼它是有好處的"},{"start":742.406,"end":772.049,"text":"但是如果不改就像現在這樣子可能動不動立法委員就怎麼適用泰晤士罪條例啦然後這個助理呢也變成是公務犯但是明明在其他國家裡面非常清楚基本上立法委員國會議員他不會把他視為是公務員在很多國家都把他排除於他就不是公務員那麼如果說立法委員真的有侵占助理的費用夠不夠成犯罪請問張富敏"},{"start":774.452,"end":791.423,"text":"這部分我們立法院不是主管機關好 應該是人事處當然構成犯罪啊刑法上不是有侵佔罪 詐欺罪一大堆的犯罪所以現在外面的媒體說什麼立法院我們這次陳昀臻委員的提案基本上是要把立委什麼除罪化哪來的什麼除罪化"},{"start":794.245,"end":805.496,"text":"頂多是說可能在法律適用上面不適合去適用貪污治罪條例但是他還是有很多特別法刑法民法勞基法等等的相關的法律的規定並不是說是除罪化所以這個議題基本上是很重要了那麼雖然說現在外面的這個"},{"start":814.885,"end":830.045,"text":"討論很多 雜音很多 而且很多都被媒體帶風向 變成是好像是立法委員變得自肥連統籌運用的這個概念任何的錢不可能是進到立法委員個人私人的帳戶 我要再講一遍"},{"start":832.133,"end":859.65,"text":"未來就算是說是有這個所謂的讓立法委員門辦公室有一筆經費可以去聘用人力還有就相關的業務經費這也是進到立法委員辦公室他會是一個特殊的帳戶他不會是進到立法委員個人的私人帳戶裡面所以這根本不是自肥的問題我想我今天發言也蠻久的也謝謝周偉"},{"start":860.571,"end":861.132,"text":"給我比較多的時間來釐清一些相關的議題好那就這樣謝謝張富敏好謝謝翁曉琳委員不過我還是"}]}},{"id":"166357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166357","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b15ff650b8daaf0dcfb5fe7457644078f046f29551fe3ea0e55195ddf4f073bf875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:42:16 - 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有請陳主委有請陳主委主委好委員好"},{"start":16.97,"end":44.457,"text":"這個星期一深夜日本親身的外海發生了規模7.6的強震日本也隨即針對鄰近鎮央的核電廠進行戒備跟安全檢查當然所幸一切平安我想任何人都不會想要再陷入311福島核災發生史的恐懼所以不論是核電廠除以與否"},{"start":45.157,"end":69.733,"text":"或者它是否还要再运转天灾来临时针对核电厂的安全管制还是非常重要的议题警察院在今年11月7号有发布一个报告这个报告里面有指出说台湾三座核电厂的耐震能力堪忧台电跟核安会应检讨"},{"start":70.433,"end":96.289,"text":"那經常委員有表示說在地震風險無法預測的情況之下那各廠的運轉超過40年之際喔台電公司應該針對攸關緊急停機設備組件的先期耐震補強作業外還缺乏對於這個各核電廠結構體的耐震及系統老化影響等評估顯有安全的疑慮這個經常委員說的"},{"start":98.67,"end":125.959,"text":"雖然藍白聯手強行通過了核管法的修法把核電廠的運轉期限延長到60年我們從現實面來看無論如何我們都必須務實的去面對核電廠的安全管制的議題尤其監察院剛剛我說的公布了這個調查報告顯而易見不論它是在運轉的狀態或者是核電廠"},{"start":127.677,"end":152.351,"text":"的安全性他其實他特別對耐震度的方面我們都一定要嚴加的來加以這個檢視那特別檢察院這份報告也針對了耐震度來敦請台電跟核安會來檢討評估那可是本席認為除了地震這一件單單地震這件事情以外"},{"start":153.371,"end":166.179,"text":"它所造成的複合式的災害像是地震後會產生一些這個海嘯或者山崩甚至是軍事的威脅這個都應該要納入這個核子這個"},{"start":170.501,"end":184.95,"text":"反應設施運轉執照申請審核的辦法的評估的項目當中那其實民間團體也有提出很多寶貴的意見所以我現在要請教主委那你何安會參採這些民間的寶貴意見的情況如何"},{"start":189.963,"end":210.892,"text":"我們對這些意見非常重視所以內政方面或海嘯或複合型的災害都有相關的規定也都有相關的評估都有把它參採進去這些複合性的災害的安全評估是的"},{"start":212.401,"end":236.81,"text":"好 那同樣啦我們涉及這個核安法官的就是還有這個核子事故緊急應變的策略因為我們可以看到核安會都有辦這個核安演習嘛那本席是要提出一個關鍵的問題是核子事故緊急應變法中有關於這個核子事故緊急應變這個計劃區的這個劃定是不是要檢討的必要"},{"start":241.051,"end":265.727,"text":"因為我們看日本福島核災發生後日本政府就強制核電半徑的20公里的居民要疏散驅離也要求20至30公里的居民要採室內掩蔽或自行疏散如果根據我國核子事故緊急應變計畫區的範圍其實只有8公里"},{"start":270.034,"end":294.514,"text":"那如果萬一發生核子事故的話恐怕我看恐怕是難以充分的應變那再來就是說這個緊急應變法的第13條的第二項有提到他說核子反應器設施經營者應定期提出緊急應變的計劃區內民眾防護措施的分析跟規劃並設置完成必要之場所及設備"},{"start":296.209,"end":320.822,"text":"核一核二它半徑30公里的範圍內其實都框到整個台北市所以數百萬人都是所謂的潛在的影響對象那核三廠它半徑30公里的範圍內也框到了我們人潮熱絡的墾丁鬧區所以本席認為就算核電廠沒有在運轉"},{"start":322.423,"end":344.234,"text":"核廢料 核物料還是放在場子裡面同樣有風險所以主委你認為在現在的交通狀況之下假設我們即便就是依照日本的標準 匡合30公里的範圍內這數百萬人真的可以安全疏散嗎"},{"start":346.618,"end":366.514,"text":"我國的緊急應變區計畫是根據風險分析的科學評估結果這方法與美國等世界國家其他國家是一致的做法台電每三年都需要重新評估過緊急應變區的檢討評估我們經常有滾動式的檢討目前是8公里嘛"},{"start":375.021,"end":386.147,"text":"對 八公里對 可是要檢討的範圍需要擴大嗎因為我們看日本我們覺得目前是緊急應變區是適當的我們經過科學分析以及風險分析這確實是要滾動式檢討"},{"start":390.845,"end":413.562,"text":"那好 那即便你現在的所謂的8公里的這個計劃區裡面你覺得用現在的交通狀況 安全疏散是沒有問題的沒有問題 我請這位署長補充一下跟委員報告一下 針對疏散的部分我們現在都是採超前部署的方式然後也就是在輔助還沒有外事之前先做預防性的疏散"},{"start":413.962,"end":441.907,"text":"因此就是在疏散的時候都會考量以風險來做最優先例如說弱勢族群這個會需要當然最優先是那所以它的這個疏散它是會分階段分流的來進行的這是目前的一個應變的一個規劃那也每年的河岸演習也都有進行演練像今年也就有針對屏東縣就是三公里範圍內的居民都有做這個疏散演練是以及弱勢族群也都有"},{"start":442.527,"end":468.978,"text":"因為我們如果參照這個日本這個福島核災發生那其實它是這個20公里半徑20公里是強制那30公里是要求他們自行所以我的意思是說這個20 30這個是日本政府的規定可是這個因為他們發生這個核災是血淋淋的這個例子在那裡所以我們的8公里是不是也必須要滾動式的檢討"},{"start":470.358,"end":493.564,"text":"這8公里是不是範圍太小一些就是說是不是這個災害我覺得這個其實核安會也要定期檢討不是說它規定8公里那我們就是只用8公里來做安全疏散的這個範圍是不是報告委員這個部分我們也都有滾動的檢討因此我們最新的這個檢討評估台電公司提報的這個報告是今年6月的一個報告"},{"start":494.184,"end":514.055,"text":"那是依照剛剛主委有說的依照我們風險評估跟國際上其他國家一樣的科學的根據來做的評估好 瞭解好 那再來同樣的就是說民間其實也持續向核安會來倡議就是所謂的高放選址的條例的立法"},{"start":514.855,"end":534.329,"text":"那我們當然不能說我們只是討論是否在運轉而始終忽視了這個高階核廢料的處置跟它的法源所以我要再次強調就無論核電廠運轉多久或者它是否重啟運轉用過的高放射性的這些廢棄物它就是產生就是在那邊"},{"start":535.049,"end":547.202,"text":"所以我們必須務實的面對這個問題嘛那高階核廢料它的處置一定是我們的必要任務啦齁那所以請教主委這個高放選址條例 核安會內部還要討論多久"},{"start":551.391,"end":569.056,"text":"跟委員說明高放選條例其實是經濟部他的專案辦公室在研議去年今年4月的時候辦公室成立然後他的工作就是要來執行高放選條例的立法草案目前經濟部還在內部討論中"},{"start":570.777,"end":599.026,"text":"可是你们是共同参与的吗我们其实有给经济部我们的管制专业意见我们今年有邀请经济部来会里面跟他说明了三次我们对一些管制上的可能的技术要求让他们能够来那如果按照你的推估大约什么时候会有比较具体的确实我推估因为他们是专办公室在处理这件事情"},{"start":599.366,"end":624.255,"text":"好 最後再做一個小問題就是我國現行的原子能法它的主體是在1971年修正到現在已經超過50年那它的立法思維可以說是已經很難應對當代的這個核能挑戰尤其是它該這個法的這個終止它是究竟是要管制還是推廣什麼原子能的利用也有待商榷也就是說原子能法"},{"start":625.295,"end":636.682,"text":"應該要通盤檢視那並評估是不是要重修這個法所以我要請教主委說目前原子能法有推出修正草案的這個打算嗎"},{"start":640.006,"end":660.987,"text":"原子能法跟委員報告原子能法確實很長的時間沒有修改那我們也陸續的在進行草案的提出還有跟專家學者的討論因為現在相關的管制法規都有個別的法律在譬如核子擺機設置管制法輻射防護法"},{"start":662.088,"end":682.048,"text":"这些管制法规都有在使用目前原子能法在执行上并没有至暗难行但是因为它已经很久没有修了这部分我们会继续努力的把它修了让它与时俱进以上报告好 谢谢好 谢谢主委谢谢主席好 谢谢林怡景委"}]}},{"id":"166355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166355","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b173000fdbf988f633b5fe7457644078f046f29551fe3ea0e5ec4005c00d4bcaf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:31:53 - 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謝謝主席 我們邀請我們 主委好 請陳竺文"},{"start":18.544,"end":46.322,"text":"好 主委我想今天11月前幾天11月28號的時候經濟部核定了三座核電廠的現況評估報告認定核二跟核三有再運轉的可行性台電也隨即表示將會進行自主的安全檢查並在2023年3月會先提出一個再運轉計畫並且在2027年將自主安檢報告會送到核安會來審查我想"},{"start":48.344,"end":61.706,"text":"接下來這個核安會的角色到底是什麼就變得非常重要我們現在是我想要請主委回答我們核安會是被動的收建單位還是我們是核能安全的把關者"},{"start":68.759,"end":77.79,"text":"所以我们会非常想站在专业上面去做安全的实质审查对吗是的那我想就是说"},{"start":79.511,"end":97.722,"text":"當社會聽到這個聚在運轉可行性的時候呢就會認為你們好像已經在背書了我認為這個對你們的獨立性跟專業性會有非常大的考驗所以我希望你們還是能夠秉持著專業來去做實質的審查因為所有人都生長在這一片土地上面"},{"start":98.522,"end":113.489,"text":"好之前我們都一直不停的強調三個共識三個共識還是最重要的原則那接下來呢我也想要跟主委再請教就是根據核管法第16條之一我們確實是允許經營者先停出再運轉計畫再分階段來補齊第16條"},{"start":117.791,"end":144.85,"text":"所要求的一些重要文件包含整體的老化評估啊 耐震安全評估中期安全分析等等的但是我們也看到經濟部呢已經有提到說他們希望可以在2028年能夠進行再運轉那我想請教一下主委 根據您的經驗我們從專業的角度來看還有從國際的審查實務來看我們能夠保證在三年之內完成這件事情嗎核安會可以完成審查嗎 然後再運轉"},{"start":145.731,"end":162.861,"text":"河岸會一定依法根據國際的標準進行嚴格審查該做的項目很多時針上我們沒有辦法給個確定的日期多快可以審查完畢一切要依照依法實行"},{"start":163.991,"end":183.45,"text":"必要的安全检查所以我们依法行政嘛对不对依法执行嘛不会有一个确切的时间表嘛还是要回到就是国际的一个同财单位以及透过国际的专业审查来进行所有的实诚那是不是可以请教主委国际的专业审查的时程它们大概多久的时间呢"},{"start":185.564,"end":203.971,"text":"這也是不一定長短有的比較快有的會審查蠻長的對在我看到我今天收集到的資訊像法國就是像如主委說的差異時間非常的大法國甚至到了20年所以我想大家還是專業性在於安全的問題那"},{"start":206.232,"end":229.415,"text":"在11月的時候監察院其實也提出了一份報告就已經把問題講得非常清楚就是海淀在104年的時候就已經去做他們現在就依照了美國的SHAC Level 3的標準替三座核電廠做過機率式的地震危害分析結果發現我不曉得主委知道這份報告就是說三座核電廠實際可以承受的地震程度"},{"start":230.496,"end":258.688,"text":"比当年都已经超过当年建厂时的设计值也就是说其实我们的耐震力需要很大的一个调整因为这是有一个很大的疑虑那在114年核关法修法的时候呢我也要再澄清一个重点就是核电厂的运转执照其实都已经到齐了没有什么延续只有再运转所以我们所有的执行都必须依法重新来过依照这个SSHEC Level 3的分析结果把整电"},{"start":259.508,"end":272.558,"text":"整個核電廠的耐震 安全 色化老輩的問題重新評估之後才能夠重新申請再運轉執照我這樣子說對嗎 這個流程是這樣子嗎對 地震絕對是我們要檢驗的最重要的項目之一"},{"start":273.285,"end":302.785,"text":"好那接下來我也要來談核廢料的部分就是說我們現在呢其實不管怎麼講就是我們還沒有我們一直都有一個最關鍵的問題沒有處理就是像我們這個低放射性廢棄物選址條例從2006年立法之經將近20年我們都選不出一個最終處置場址那核二廠其實自己現在都是卡關的狀態因為乾式儲存設施沒有完工反映爐內的一個這個燃料棒還沒有退出來"},{"start":303.685,"end":321.681,"text":"就代表說我們到現在實務上根本無法執行那至於高放射性的廢棄物在經濟部6月的時候就已經公開他們會去提出高放選址的條例草案可是現在到12月了我們還是沒有看到任何的版本那"},{"start":322.742,"end":336.94,"text":"我想我們還是要非常坦白的去講過去國民黨在面對核廢料的問題其實都沒有真正來面對一直都沒有面對他們都一直停留在未來可以用乾式儲存先存40年再說"},{"start":339.281,"end":358.694,"text":"一直都沒有去面對最核心的一個核廢料處理的問題好那我這邊也覺得非常荒謬的是說我們今天還要協商青年基本法那其實在整個青年基本法討論的過程之中呢或者是我之前召開相關的環境的一個座談會的時候都會有年輕的朋友甚至兒少告訴我"},{"start":359.775,"end":383.61,"text":"我們現在所做的決定基本上承擔後果的都是他們因為在存40年之後在座的很多人可能都已經離開這個世界了可是我們的孩子就是要承受這一切後果的所以我就覺得非常的諷刺一邊說要尊重傾聽青年的聲音一邊要挺青年但是一邊我們做了這樣子的決議卻完全沒有去"},{"start":384.491,"end":402.452,"text":"考慮到下一代要承受什麼樣子的後果就只有把問題丟給下一代所以最後我也是想要再跟主委討論一下就是我們關於社會共識的部分核管法的第六條跟第五條其實都有去講到說我們的環評法"},{"start":404.878,"end":431.409,"text":"都有講到說我們需要保障我們的公眾安全而且要確保環境保護與生態保育那我想這個觀念其實一直在更新也一直在改變那環境部其實之前有說環評法需要修法彭啟明部長也在11月30號指出可以先進行政策性的環評但是實務上政策性環評只有遵循性質沒有任何的實質的否決權根本無法回應社會對於核電的一個疑慮"},{"start":432.609,"end":452.227,"text":"那過去呢 核安會也曾經在相關的報導說會是否要進行做環評呢 要由環境部來認定可是我認為作為核能安全的主管機關核安會有責任在相關的執法中清楚規範申請在運作時要具備哪些安全的 哪些文件"},{"start":453.328,"end":475.846,"text":"所以我想要請教主委在核電廠申請再運轉的制度上是否我們可以明確的去規範申請人必須檢部環評的相關資料我們可不可以把這樣子的一個要求納入執法裡面我們執法裡面也有包括輻射方面的安全評估"},{"start":477.085,"end":492.566,"text":"在河岸會的職責是對於輻射對環境的影響評估評估要負完全的責任至於其他方面的議題我們會和環境部來共同協商討論"},{"start":494.7,"end":512.47,"text":"我想其實大家一直在講環評就像剛剛講的環境部已經表示環評法需要修法他可以先做政策性的環評這部分環境部已經沒有問題了現在是說現在問題是在於要做環評這個是你們說這要由環境部來認定可是我認為這應該是你們要來認定的"},{"start":516.031,"end":543.587,"text":"問題在這裡我們核安會職責是針對那個輻射安全做環境影響評估這方面是核安會要負全部的責任但是問題是我們還有講到你們的第六條也有講到公眾安全還有這個環境保護跟生態保育等等的你們自己有提到我們現在是希望把這些東西也納入在環評裡面那這個是不是可以寫在執法裡面呢主委您的態度是"},{"start":545.642,"end":564.569,"text":"我跟委員說報告那核管法第五條是明確寫說要合於相關法令這部分那主管機關是回到環境部那核安會已經針對會裡面的主管事項就是輻射相關的議題包括對環境對工作人員的一些輻射的相關議題都已經納入到執法裡面"},{"start":566.75,"end":588.828,"text":"所以这部分河岸会已经按照自己的职责来处理那刚才那个主委也有提到针对非辐射部分的环境保护这部分可能会里面还会再跟环境部进行讨论那好因为我时间已经到了那我想就再给我一个时间你们大概会讨论多久我们可以来追踪过去的进度你们跟环境部"},{"start":593.007,"end":604.171,"text":"我們要跟環境部討論要再向委員報告好不好我想我需要一個時程表可不可以之後一個禮拜之後給我一個你們規劃的時程好嗎給我兩個星期好不好兩個星期好 謝謝好 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1986年我甚至還沒出生但是到今天 直到今天為止我們都還要為了這個防止核輻射外洩的事情要做很多的準備因為它這個傷害是無可回復的所以呢 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不妙啦我要跟你講的就是說"},{"start":179.484,"end":205.86,"text":"這個案子 開國庫的後門把公費變成私帳這些錢 民脂民膏嘛 你們很清楚嘛來自於老百姓嘛老百姓會贊成 說這些本來該給助理的全部變立法委員的薪水以前叫做犯罪的 現在都變 沒關係啊你立法院副秘書長 你說這樣沒關係 尊重你立法院不好你不應該介入黨派"},{"start":209.892,"end":230.9,"text":"立法院是國家的立法院這個很清楚的嘛這種案件哪有什麼黨派的之爭呢這種案件就是用社會一般正常的眼光去看就知道啦可不可以這樣說我簡單聽 你就看完立法院的行政幕僚人員都是嚴守行政中立是嘛 行政中立對阿 總組你們就看完啦這樣你這樣這個態度要怎麼捍衛國會助理你這樣這個態度要怎麼像你們韓國瑜說的助理叫做家人我跟你們講喔"},{"start":240.188,"end":264.929,"text":"立法委員的國會助理都沒有薪水會不會很多助理來 會一堆這個法案通過以後就叫劣幣驅逐良幣欸 我有專欠的人 我來幫你立法做助理什麼的薪水輸在你立法委員給我的酸 有專欠的人 讓他酸了啊有一堆人說沒有關係"},{"start":266.598,"end":287.478,"text":"不要錢我也要你只要給我當你的幕僚當你的助理就好了會變成怎麼樣搞不好立法院是在監督行政部門那如果國會助理到最後是隨便給甚至可以不用錢的一大堆這種助理進入到立法院以後國會監督行政部門的力量崩潰"},{"start":290.441,"end":298.254,"text":"第二 變成一個利益交換的地方因為這些不要錢的立法會的國會助理他也必須要養活他自己的家庭啊那大家都亂做啊所以你們都不知道這個法案萬一通過"},{"start":305.627,"end":324.665,"text":"對於整個立法院的運作還有監督行政部門那個整個制度力道完全崩毀掉以後對整個國家那種可怕的一個影響啊我今天對你這樣一個態度我是我是感覺很可怕的啦另外啊我要來比較一下"},{"start":326.469,"end":328.931,"text":"國會助理本來是立法院運作 他們叫做贏武者啦也是國會立法品質的一個軟實力啦你從1992年修法確立助理的薪水直接匯入賬戶以後確立薪資他已經不是對於立法委員的補貼的性質了啦"},{"start":343.649,"end":356.462,"text":"你說到了1999年2011年編制跟費用逐步去調整加入了加班費跟臨終獎金2025年我們現在的每一位委員辦公室每月的助理費是47萬你如果14個去算"},{"start":359.685,"end":368.994,"text":"其實一個助力平均才三萬多啦在台北市的副民事長也很清楚嘛我三位機關代表也很清楚嘛這錢是要怎麼有錢我們想盡辦法要幫這個助理啊看能不能給他提升啊你現在不是,這就解讀出來很可怕很可怕我剛剛提了裴洛西啊"},{"start":381.294,"end":391.961,"text":"人家美國前眾議院議長佩洛西他講的不是口號他直接用命令他說全國國會助理全職的國會助理薪資不得早於4萬5千美金美國眾議員的薪水是17萬喔佩洛西的命令是什麼你知道嗎高階助理薪資上限直接拉到21萬2千100為什麼他敢這樣拉到比國會議員的薪資還要高"},{"start":409.5,"end":433.573,"text":"很清楚啊 他認為是他們這些國會助理對於整個眾議院的一個運作是不可或缺的啊所以他們想盡辦法努力要留才把最優秀的人要招攬進他們的國會山莊人家做的叫做什麼 改革啊 人才提升啊我們現在做的叫做什麼 助理會全部整包交給立法委員 免核銷 免收據"},{"start":437.012,"end":444.636,"text":"這是哪門子的一個改革啊今天就很可惜啦 今天本來就是秘書長要來草野協商本都在阿波的 你就很技巧性你就來這裡做稻草人不然來 你也這樣 呵呵啊 義正慈嚴 表達一下態度 讓你請一下這樣對不對我不忍苛責你 但是我是覺得你那個角色啊"},{"start":460.117,"end":482.671,"text":"沒有搞清楚沒有搞清楚啦所以你們口口聲聲說是關心助理的工作權你們這些都叫做場面話啦這個歷史會給出最公允的評價也會記住是哪一位院長在改革的十字路口上選擇轉身離開啦所以你們這個立法院做這個幕僚我覺得很可惜啦這幕僚長 你算今天代表來你看我們界邊的監察院"},{"start":490.81,"end":514.879,"text":"駕駛檢察院檢察委員公費助理一人多少你知道嗎他年薪七十六萬五月薪六萬三司法院大法官助理依照薪資的折合起薪最低五萬五最高達七萬立法院的三四萬大家在爭執所以草野立委其實立場就算是有差異但都有一個共識"},{"start":516.3,"end":532.269,"text":"是如何想盡辦法來透過體制內的預算調整實質提升助理的待遇這不同黨派的委員都是這樣想的王鋒威委員也這樣想的你不是 你來看了這個哎喲 這莊瑞最白的 這民進黨白的我就要趕快站在國民黨這邊你在搞什麼我在跟你審法案你這個態度不對"},{"start":543.24,"end":563.895,"text":"態度不對你們這樣會把整個制度去把它徹底去把它給摧毀掉你不覺得國民黨的你很愛的那副分子總召說這次的進步法案你講不出來喔我請你評價一下這部草案進步在什麼地方你告訴我簡單兩句話就好講完後面我們給我們行政部門做一個仲裁者"},{"start":564.893,"end":578.718,"text":"報告委員啊 因為我們排的是徐委員的法案啦不是陳委員的法案是嘛 一定表達嘛沒有不對嘛 就是要問你這個嘛啊不然我不這樣排 你們完全迴避嘛你們連來都不會來嘛 對不對你當作我菜市場 我不知道你在想什麼啊 回應一下委員排我們一定會來"},{"start":591.192,"end":591.872,"text":"我告訴你 我是針對整個國會幕僚 國會助理"},{"start":616.769,"end":627.238,"text":"如果說這個草案通過以後 這一些薪資全部變成立法委員薪資的一部分你沒有看法 你算知識份子咧你來做到刮掉大家 欸 都當成沒關係 給那些日本人很大你們說怎麼樣就怎麼樣 可以這樣子喔你後面那些行政部門 至少人家來講話都不會像你們那麼蒼白無力"},{"start":643.274,"end":653.81,"text":"人家自己提出各部門他們自己的看法國會助理這部草案國會助理的權益立法院秘書處你們可以沒有看法我請你真正表達一下這個部分"},{"start":659.386,"end":678.934,"text":"我想也不是沒有看法這個問題我們其實私底下有在討論過分為兩個部分一個部分是專業的部分一個部分是權益的部分那如果是專業的部分的話我們會參考其他國家或者是我們希望有一個專業培訓認證制度這個也可以提出來"},{"start":679.594,"end":684.538,"text":"是啦 我在說錢的部分啦這個是改革動 應該這個早就該做這個是簽到權益嘛那簽到權益 因為委員剛才提到我們是一個合一致的單位嘛合一致的機關所以對於酬金的這個增加就像剛剛委員所提到的裴洛西的那個看法一樣其實裴洛西的看法我們也相當認同因為不同的專業這個程度他會有不同的一個酬金的資金是嘛"},{"start":704.333,"end":725.6,"text":"我很樂意聽到你說對於美國前眾議院議長裴洛西他這樣的一個他們的一個作為你們是認同的可是問題你們現在的作為跟這個草案提出來你們的態度完全是相反啦我告訴你這部法案陳委員這部草案過了以後真正核心問題在哪裡除罪話啦 你也算不知道你都沒態度"},{"start":729.758,"end":749.409,"text":"我想酬金的部分要怎麼樣去做調整可以藉由黨人協調的方式來做處理現在到病了你不覺得現在到病了嗎跟你想的剛好相反要有立法院 秘書處立法院 今天這個破亂到這裡要有立法院的態度"},{"start":751.311,"end":761.006,"text":"回去好好看一下你們昨天發出來的新聞稿再好好看一下2022年人家裴若曦那個公開聲明 好不好好 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委員好我們在12月初的時候看到一個新聞就是札幌的核電廠它的防護牆被"},{"start":49.599,"end":68.904,"text":"就破口了那整個烏克蘭的715億的核災設施有破口出現的時候那國際原子能總署就警告輻射外洩恐失控那這邊是一個叫防護牆那針對這個議題最重要的是核安衛視掌管核子核電廠的安全那我們大家就想問的是說那我們的"},{"start":70.845,"end":86.793,"text":"核電廠有沒有這樣子的一個防護牆然後還有就是說我關於核電廠的安全設計有沒有針對國際能源總署他所提到的核實 暫時核安指引或有沒有外部威脅的評估的一個要求這件請組長"},{"start":91.116,"end":109.423,"text":"報告委員就是委員所問的就是針對IAEA最新的這些暫時的指引跟外部威脅這些重大評估目前就是台電公司都已經訂了核電廠面臨軍事威脅下確保核安的準備跟應變計畫以及相關的程序書那也透過每年的演習做一個檢討精進"},{"start":110.663,"end":120.748,"text":"所以 我們的台電有這樣的一個計畫書嘛 對不對有在演習嘛 對不對那這部分是不是可以北本席或是你們已經放在台電已經放在他的官網上面了嗎"},{"start":122.754,"end":144.16,"text":"有知道這些事情嗎報告委員因為有些內容因為是涉及保安的部分所以它是屬於比較機敏的但是它在演練的時候我們的都會派員去做一個視察檢視好那我當然講詳細這是你們河岸會知道嘛對不對是好那這邊我特別想問到就是這後面的如果可以的話我希望說給本席一份這樣子有沒有機會"},{"start":146.616,"end":168.249,"text":"還是就是還有說核子安全的設施等等好那如果沒關係我們看到我是想問的是他是否這樣的一個指南裡面啦計畫書裡面是否有已經針對無人機的攻擊還有飛彈的落彈還有長時間斷電的這個設計基準外的這樣的事件有沒有這樣子的一個內容包括這些內容"},{"start":169.561,"end":188.493,"text":"報告委員有的 像委員所提的無人機攻擊也是近年非常重視的一個議題那每年也都有進行演練好 那這樣子就會涉及到更重要的問題老師我們已經針對了國際原子能總署最重要的最新的這樣的一個趨勢已經因應到像5.23陣下面的無人機的攻擊"},{"start":189.093,"end":213.527,"text":"那在下面的問句再下來就是在說那我們在8月20號的時候呢核三廠考察的時候台電的許永慧副總他有回應到現場的質疑說核三廠有完整的安全性不只是原始設計的抗震是0.4G還已經加上了所有極端風險機率性的考量因此呢台電的許副總他認為說核安會呢"},{"start":215.808,"end":232.669,"text":"所說的加固到1.384G呢是考量到所有安全性風險機率的抗爭能力並非只是抵抗單純的地震喔這是非常重要 因為是何安威是做這個把關的那請問主委或者是高斌組長請問一下除一中的機組 扯三的"},{"start":233.47,"end":246.457,"text":"核二的 乾式儲存的設施在是否已經納入暫時防護情境是否在國軍戰略跟民防單位有計畫的銜接保障核電在極端風險下仍然是安全的"},{"start":248.678,"end":262.914,"text":"報告委員,因為我們台灣的柑橱設施系統其實都引進於美國NRC核准的系統那開發商當時在設計的時候有些柑橱甚至是實際上採用飛機撞擊去做測試"},{"start":266.932,"end":284.563,"text":"所以這邊事實上包括機組那乾式儲存你今天也提到了嘛對不對乾式儲存包括你們現在的已經開始招標的這乾式儲存廠的標也是要求這樣的一個標準對不對這台電公司的招標案不過台電公司招標案裡面對於耐震設計有特別的要求"},{"start":285.123,"end":300.714,"text":"對 而且是全部嘛 對不對包括是極端風險都已經包括進去了好 那另外的是在國軍戰略跟民防單位是否跟這樣的一個演習有沒有做計畫 因為現在想要全民任性包括如果遇到這種極端的情況是不是也沒有問題"},{"start":302.808,"end":330.507,"text":"就是保障核電廠是安全的啦是 包括委員相關的這些重大威脅都有納入它的演習的情境然後有做討論跟實際的一個演練所以剛才所說的有些委員他們所提到的這樣的安全包括不只是地震甚至連極端的危險的狀況的風險都已經包括進去都可以抵擋住對不對是是的這就表示說你核安會的這樣子的一個尬詞我覺得非常好讓全民在核在"},{"start":331.688,"end":355.276,"text":"國家的民意最高殿堂裡面立法院展現出這樣子一個核安的態度好那我們現在再看看是核三廠的議題我們現在已經進入到一個除疫的階段核三廠的一號機二號機電線現在所謂的過度的管制期包括說爐心的燃料也拿出來了那現在已經進入到的是所謂的自主安全檢查的一個時期對不對"},{"start":356.216,"end":371.348,"text":"那這個時期當中呢現在我就會遇到一個很大的問題就是說我也看到目前呢可以看到的是一個情況是因為經濟部部長他也提到的是台電預計在明年的"},{"start":372.949,"end":396.921,"text":"2026的3月要提出要提出來的是申請重啟的這個辦法 提出的計畫嘛 對不對那現在就必須要說剛剛尤其是河山廠的2號機材才進入到一個除役的階段那除役的階段面臨到的是25年可是我們也知道如果他明年3月就進行的一個重啟的計畫書要提出來申請的話那會遇到"},{"start":399.062,"end":420.954,"text":"廚藝跟重啟的這個有這樣子的一個重疊時間那請問一下在這個情況之下哪一個轉是不是會遇到有一個轉折點的情況那這個轉折點是在哪裡可能會在哪裡就現在已經有了資料上級長官經濟就是說另外的在屬於核三廠的我說核電廠的重啟這部分請回答"},{"start":424.6,"end":447.319,"text":"跟委員說明除役許可的申請案是執照到期前三年台電公司依法來向會裡面申請這部分就是等台電公司提出除役的環評報告之後如果符合法規 何安會才會合法除役許可目前如果按照台電公司或者經濟部對外說明如果明年三月提出換照的申請案"},{"start":447.859,"end":463.729,"text":"那核安委也是依法來就是還審理之後再看情況然後因為剛才委員提到除役跟重啟這兩件事情可能會並行那我們也會參考國外核電廠重啟的經驗就是恢復申請的經驗"},{"start":464.75,"end":481.933,"text":"那我们会针对重启的现场工作进行现场查证或视察那也会针对重启跟厨艺的共同事项来进行查证那这部分还是会持续办理一些干除设施用过燃料的一些安全的管制作业"},{"start":482.453,"end":506.621,"text":"換言之如果台電提出重啟的一個申請那當然依照程序去申請的話也提出你在審核包括的情況下就變成重啟會是比較優先的項目但是重啟跟在裡面他要預報過的是在核燃料裡面的這個燃料棒也是要拿起來如果他是說已經有空間乾除設施可以進去包括乾除廠也是會繼續再建嘛對不對"},{"start":507.561,"end":534.201,"text":"是的那現在的問題是那二號機的部分燃料池這部分也都大概有了解所以包括現在的處理設備的拆除這件事情基本上就會停止了廚藝當中的這個設備的拆除這部分會停止嗎跟委員說明現在是就是按照廚藝計畫的規劃是現在是過渡階段那台電公司就準備一些乾除設施的一些準備新建作業"},{"start":534.981,"end":557.833,"text":"因為現在還沒有正式提出來我一次用過燃料的安全好那現在可是已經看得到一號機我們已經看到說它的已經開工把設備拆除氮氣槽跟室水加清系統的部分那二號機是否還會繼續進行二號機的這個氮氣槽跟室水加清設備各位委員那是合一廠氮氣槽跟室水加清這是合一廠的"},{"start":558.584,"end":577.739,"text":"喔好那這樣子了解所以事實上核彈是更新型的嘛對不對就沒有這個設施好那我們現在要更強調的是另外一部分可是如果遇到的是核燃重啟喔那重啟的情況之下有一個問題是說核燃料的補充是重要的啦因為核燃料的補充我們現在看到這裡喔就是說"},{"start":578.78,"end":600.775,"text":"核燃料如果在營運的運轉的計畫裡面的核燃料補充這部分那到時候是會有誰來負責是來編預算等等的這部分有沒有考慮到這些事情因為你們可能也遇到這樣的情形要思考跟委員說明這個燃料者採購是屬於台電公司的商務採購合約那這部分細節要由台電公司去規劃說明"},{"start":601.872,"end":625.87,"text":"OK好那就是可能兩邊都被重啟了之後他表示核燃料的部分可能台電部分就會更重要的去下去負責這邊的一個重啟等等更重要的一個構置對不對好那可是剛才有一個問題是在於說另外剛才對重啟有個政策有說環評剛才說只要環評可是目前環境部的部長他要提到是說"},{"start":627.051,"end":649.585,"text":"要做環評 可是現在在目前的核子設施反應器的管制法當中並沒有關於特別所謂的他後來講到說政策環評因為考慮到要政策環評就會把人民的意見放進來當地的或是全國的意見中進來那請問一下對於政策環評我是注意到是政策環評的意見核安會的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":651.992,"end":661.917,"text":"覺得有必要嗎如果有提出政策環評的話 那當然要修法可能在核子設施反應器的管制法裡面你們的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":663.2,"end":689.063,"text":"核安會是負責核能安全管制對於輻射對環境的影響評估這責任完全是在核安會核安會要負起全部的責任核安會是負責環境評估對不對但是我現在說是政策環評因為現在環評裡面沒有特別去講到是對跟人的這方面的事情我們會跟其他議題我們會跟環境部協商討論"},{"start":690.063,"end":716.562,"text":"好那如果這樣的話是不是要涉及到要把核子設施反應器的管理管制法要做修訂才能加入到這個有法源依據是不是要有這樣的考量跟委員先補充說明那核安會是核安嘛主管機關那針對輻射的相關議題在我們的執法已經納進來了那這部分也是環稟的一部分那但是針對非輻射"},{"start":717.723,"end":746.522,"text":"非輻射相關的環境評估這部分那可能就要剛才主委有說明就是要跟環境部再去討論不過因為所有的事情因為剛才說辦法有可是所有的事情都需要要有法源依據的那目前政策環境是看到沒有的像跟環境部在做溝通之後這部分可能會是重要的一個依據不然沒有辦法的法源依據其實做不來只是在辦法上面它的一個執行的效力也是會有問題的我就提供到這樣子的一個意見我們希望在跟環境部的時候要注意到這個議題"},{"start":747.763,"end":756.53,"text":"好 谢谢主委请回谢谢刘淑冰委员的质询下一个请郭玉琴委员"}]}},{"id":"166358","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166358","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b1b6fcf56dbb9013d6feb4e86bf6119d126cb862312e5c4d1f9af2e74e98a9ffb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:46:39 - 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先請教您陳怡貞委員提案的立法院組織法第32條、第33條、第35條條文修正草案將公費助理的公費兩次刪除也刪除聘用助理人數上下限的限定又將立委助理費及辦公事務預算等等直接撥以在立委的統籌運用而且免檢據核銷"},{"start":50.528,"end":69.437,"text":"秘書長您是法律系的兼任助理教授我想請教您這是進步的修法嗎當然剛才有委員問了你好像也不太好意思回答那沒關係我也不為難你但我想知道您覺得這樣子的修法是能夠保障是能夠保障國會助理工作的權益嗎"},{"start":70.397,"end":98.639,"text":"這樣的修法我們的修法之後我們的助理還能適用勞動基準法嗎那免卷據核銷可以確保我們助理領到的是他應得的薪資嗎您覺得謝謝委員我想立法院及院長都非常重視我們助理的權益行政幕僚人員本於行政中立原則也不適合也不能夠評估任何委員的提案來沒關係來我請教一下那個李專委"},{"start":99.62,"end":116.019,"text":"公費助理適用勞基法但是如果未來改為委員自聘助理也且不用提供助理名冊那這樣的助理還能適用勞基法嗎助理會變成是民法的雇傭契約嗎他的薪資勞保勞退的這個權益還能受到保障嗎"},{"start":120.273,"end":142.826,"text":"在勞基法裡面它其實就是看有沒有成立雇傭關係那當然勞基法不會去處理要不要提供助理名冊的這件事情我們其實就是看實際上有沒有聘僱那如果有成立聘僱關係的話在勞基法上所有的權利助理們應該要得到的權利還有勞基法規定的事項其實都要符合"},{"start":143.186,"end":163.055,"text":"好 謝謝專委喔那我在這邊還是要做一個澄清啦這一次呢助理要求撤回法案的這個連署有媒體報導是有派系是由政國會發起的這不是事實我在這邊真的要特別的澄清避免以訛傳訛雖然發起是我的助理我到昨天下午才知道他們不敢讓我知道怕我有壓力也怕我反對"},{"start":163.635,"end":178.848,"text":"但我知道之後我鼓勵他們支持他們要自主決定我也跟他說你要跟你們的助理夥伴們你們一起站出來因為這是你們的權益如果你們自己都不發聲我該怎麼替你們做我該為你們做什麼但是我有嚴格的要求"},{"start":179.528,"end":195.971,"text":"就是連署的助理的個資不能外洩絕對不行所以他們後來給出來資料是有做模糊處理的那我想請問副秘書長如果連署的助理有遭到秋後算賬明年不被續聘那立法院能不能保障他們的權益"},{"start":198.097,"end":212.706,"text":"我想這是一個假設性的問題啊不適合在這個地方做因為當然我們也知道說媒體有報導有那個來簽了之後又被迫撤簽的那也有辦公室是阻止他們的助理來簽的這樣的狀況其實你都一直說你們行政中立不好說"},{"start":214.247,"end":241.819,"text":"而本席認為如果嚴重的強害國家助理的國會助理的正當權益的法案一旦立法完成這麼多年好不容易爭取來的國會助理的相關的制度這些福利這些保障包括他們的職位尊嚴都會被破壞未來我們的立法權能夠有效監督行政制衡行政的這個能力也會受到波及最後影響的就是人民的權利"},{"start":244.332,"end":260.556,"text":"另外我這邊要提一下過去福建金門地檢署曾經發函來立法院要求回復立法院編列之公費助理費是否得由委員統籌支付之用那當時的立法院秘書長以台立"},{"start":261.276,"end":290.236,"text":"願人字第097003623號回覆本院委員公會助理由委員自行聘任其雇主為委員本院警隊其應聘人數及酬金總額是否有合法定人數及性額內作審核其餘事項非本院所問表示他們不同意可以由委員統籌之用那麼請問副秘書長現在您的立場是改變的嗎是支持由委員統籌之用嗎"},{"start":291.482,"end":320.272,"text":"我想當時的這個發函是人事處在主辦可不可以請人事處來做回應所以你們不反對我們沒有辦法做這個部分的一個回應那草案的說明也提到說免提供助理名冊表示助理是變成由公家助理變成私人助理那我想請問副秘書長怎麼樣確定這個誰是助理無法確定誰是助理的時候那怎麼來管制他們進出立法院的安全維護工作你要怎麼做要怎麼管制"},{"start":323.953,"end":329.983,"text":"其實我也在法治局待過所以說法治局的同仁沒有就任何委員的提案做過評估"},{"start":332.162,"end":351.053,"text":"我知道你們現在就是你就是來這邊你覺得說委員問了什麼你就用你們很公式化的很官方的這樣說法來回答但是整個影響整個立法院的運作現在全部的助理都非常的焦慮包括我知道有藍營辦公室的助理們就覺得"},{"start":352.094,"end":366.925,"text":"他們很想簽不能簽因為他的老闆說不能簽他們覺得非常非常的為難他們想要站出來捍衛自己的權益可是他們不能做整個立法院為了這個事情整個沸沸揚揚你今天跟我說我們不好說這個我們不能說這個我們不能決定這個我們不能做"},{"start":370.12,"end":397.245,"text":"好 韓院長前天有發聲明指出立法院尊重每一頁委員的提案權身為立法院院長會全力捍衛國會助理的權益並且告訴每一個黨團任何修法都不該侵害國會助理工作權益包括工作權 待遇 福利以及各項法定的必要保障那我想請問副秘書長您覺得院長這樣的聲明是不是他也覺得陳昀臻委員的提案這個已經侵害到國會助理的工作權益"},{"start":399.436,"end":417.904,"text":"這個部分我想我無權發表個人的評論那立法院是一個合一致那我想請問你喔那院長有說呢他會告訴每一個黨團任何一個修法都不應該侵害這個國會助理的工作權益那麼已經有告訴每一個黨團了嗎或是有指派秘書長或是您副秘書長去告訴每一個黨團了嗎就我的部分是沒有那至於其他部分我不清楚所以都沒有嗎"},{"start":425.293,"end":448.16,"text":"那既然院長已經發了這樣的聲明是不是請副秘書長您轉告秘書長也轉告韓院長提醒他他已經發了這樣的聲明了請趕快去親自告訴每個黨團並且溝通不要等木已成舟了就拉不回來了我們已經立院的助理委員助理是我們最親密的我們作戰的夥伴"},{"start":448.976,"end":469.256,"text":"有一些助理的年資比我們都還要資深他們進來立法院這麼久對整個的議事運作對整個的質詢對整個的議事的這個規則他們都比我們還要清楚所以我進到立法院來我非常尊重我的助理他們很多事情比我們都還要了解他們經過這麼多年的努力"},{"start":471.115,"end":490.48,"text":"才建立了這樣的制度才有這樣的保障才有這樣的福利雖然不是滿分我覺得大概有80分但現在你要把它打回去連及格的邊緣都沒有我覺得對助理真的是非常的不公平那好吧我的時間也到了我可以借一點時間嗎我想要問主計處主計總處的陳副主計長"},{"start":500.286,"end":503.368,"text":"請問副主席長如果陳一貞委員這個法案通過之後統籌運用這個預算要用什麼科目來編列對就是說這個就是一個重點就是說如果我們現在界定的就是說是一個就是助理的薪資的概念跟未來"},{"start":522.985,"end":548.179,"text":"把它界定成是一個補助立委的概念它的本質就會產生改變所以如果是補助的概念的話那它到底是用在人事費還是其他的業務費它產生了自主的空間那如果沒有相關的配套的話是不是真的會未來會用在這個公費的助理上就會產生一個模糊的空間"},{"start":549.079,"end":576.369,"text":"所以對於未來是不是真的就是說它本質如果是一個補助的概念以後就必須要看未來立法院在執行這個補助的時候它的配套的要求所以以主計總處來講現在的公費助理的這個費用呢是編列在第三款立法院主管第一項立法院第二幕委員問政業務第二節公費助理"},{"start":576.869,"end":602.302,"text":"是編在這裡就是目前非常明確是一個人是非的概念那未來如果是統籌運用的那未來如果是補助的概念它的本質就會產生改變而且助理的人數沒有上下限的規定會不會有人超高薪有人領低薪然後免減拒核銷我們真的沒有辦法確保我們的助理是能夠拿到他應得的這個酬金享有他該有的福利跟權益是不是"},{"start":602.862,"end":620.458,"text":"等於說這個法的未接我們就沒有辦法看出來它相關的控管的機制就必須假設法的未接不明確那未來的配套怎麼樣去處理這個公費助理薪資的部分就有待就是說立法院未來再配套必須去強化"},{"start":621.659,"end":625.522,"text":"謝謝副主席長我還是要再告訴一下副秘書長回去一定要轉達秘書長再轉達韓院長請好好跟每個黨團告知我們不可以損害侵害到國會助理的權益以上 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳秀寶委員好 謝謝這個比較可惜"}]}},{"id":"166356","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166356","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b1c7c3bc1cdf221d27feb4e86bf6119d1246f29551fe3ea0e5d5dcb3123ad56a9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:32:18 - 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謝謝翊川主席好 有請我們張富命張富命請法務部司長司長委員好"},{"start":19.024,"end":40.69,"text":"大家早安喔這哪裡是進步的國會這根本是退回36年前的退步國會所以民進黨反對自肥法案立場非常清楚今天上午有一些他黨的委員在這裡質詢我也非常認真的聆聽我認為這些在野黨的委員沒有人敢直求對決"},{"start":42.116,"end":60.049,"text":"他們可能會提到過去哪些案例或者是要扯到民進黨哪些涉案的委員之類的就是沒有人敢針對陳玉珍立委的這一個助理費除罪話國民黨或民眾黨真實的立場是什麼沒有人該表達"},{"start":61.226,"end":84.153,"text":"民進黨非常清楚反對自肥的法案非常清楚現在在我們的三樓有一個讓立委簽署的我們跟國會助理站在一起民進黨的立委我們都具名簽署代表我們負責的責任下一頁今天呢朝野協商成了自肥法案最好的遮羞布了嗎看來就是如此嘛"},{"start":85.391,"end":108.997,"text":"從來沒有昨天下班前急急忙忙的也從來沒有看過韓院長這麼認真啊早上九點就要朝野協商的啊過去朝野協商韓院長大概都是下午的時間然後呢快速的安排一個朝野協商九點鐘好早啊韓院長辛苦了為了護航掩護週萬來要起個大早來朝野協商"},{"start":110,"end":134.055,"text":"原來呢周恩來就是可以拿到一個請假單就您來這裡代打了我們來看看今天朝野協商讓我覺得是非常諷刺的一場協商說是要挺年輕人你們都說國會助理是我們的家人結果呢今天協商要反年改"},{"start":135.051,"end":160.896,"text":"把現在限職公務人員未來可能領不到退休金的這個風險就是要強行通過了讓可能造成年改基金破產7000億的缺口要全民買單對我們跨世代的年輕世代哪裡公平這是第一個反年改的議案今天要協商 因為明天就要表決"},{"start":162.694,"end":177.347,"text":"然後呢更離譜的民眾黨最近因為有委員逼迫立委啊對不起逼迫助理們可能去撤遷了相關的反自肥的法案所以呢哎呦趕緊的又沒收了"},{"start":178.988,"end":194.614,"text":"黨團協商林怡景召委的權限青年基本法現在法案委員會完成審查正在進行教育委員會林怡景召委他依程序要進行的黨團協商也在努力安排也在溝通爭議的法案"},{"start":195.612,"end":216.241,"text":"但是呢韓院長突然這麼勇於認識欸早上九點起個大早要協商趕快沒收了林怡瑾 昭偉還沒排的黨團協商居然韓院長要越組太刨先來進行青年基本法的協商我覺得光看今天的協商的這一個通知我就覺得非常的諷刺啊"},{"start":218.069,"end":231.893,"text":"反年改就是踐踏世代正義然後讓周恩來拿到了一個嫁單不敢來這裡直球對決這個自肥的法案就是傷害我們國會助理的工作權利更踐踏了我們的國會問政的專業"},{"start":234.741,"end":261.968,"text":"然後呢排了一個青年基本法我看了實在非常生氣青年基本法吳斯堯是全立法院第一個提出法案催生的立委我從上一屆就提出了我還在努力的催生他爭議的條文我不放棄的去溝通跨黨派的委員我希望青年基本法大家是在共識的狀況之下挺青年不要用表決的方式來通過所以我們還在努力"},{"start":262.788,"end":282.423,"text":"可是今天的朝野協商反年改踐踏世代正義挺自肥傷害國會助理的工作權益然後呢擺了一個要催生青年基本法我覺得這根本就是好虛偽喔你們立法委員這些大人們看在年輕世代的眼裡好虛偽喔"},{"start":283.362,"end":305.863,"text":"如果是挺青年的就業權工作權生存權怎麼會去反年改呢怎麼會去挺陳玉珍的這個法案周恩來今天不敢來這裡直球對決呢我是非常的怒不可一呀把青年基本法這一個正向的法案居然跟反年改跟挺自肥綁在一起立法院太丟臉了下一頁"},{"start":309.793,"end":338.485,"text":"您剛剛沒有回答喔 剛剛莊瑞雄教委一直在cue您喔助理費除罪化的修法 哪裡進步哪裡進步您沒有回答 我要不要再給您一點時間 您要不要來回答教委員因為今天真的沒有去研究到陳委員的一個法案的實質的內容那你們不是非常過分嗎立法院吵得這麼沸沸揚揚的事件"},{"start":340.319,"end":357.67,"text":"你們說你們沒有去研究來到這裡還要混今天排的是徐委員的那個草案啦所以我們就徐委員的草案那我現在問你啊徐委員是很進步等一下我會跟您談他的法案內容那陳玉珍委員的法案哪裡進步哪裡進步你答不出來你不敢答因為這個部分我們尊重個別委員的意見"},{"start":368.142,"end":380.27,"text":"對 這就是你們的立場韓國瑜院長講得好聽任何修法都不該來侵害助理的工作權但是下一頁你們今天的報告寫得非常清楚"},{"start":381.69,"end":397.379,"text":"公費助理的聆聘、解聘、聘用資格、薪資、工作內容、拆勤管理、各項人事管理都是雇主立委的權責你們立法院只負責行政的協助所以說我們沒地帶啦 立委的事啦"},{"start":399.7,"end":427.149,"text":"剛剛王逸川問得非常好啊如果這個立委他沒有請半個助理請問你的助理費是不是還要撥款給立委您再回答一次是不是要撥款會如何進行如果這位立委你明知他沒有請半個助理那這筆錢你怎麼做行政處理我想這個部分是公款公用啦有聘助理我們再撥款啦應該是這樣的法理啦你說什麼 再說一次"},{"start":428.783,"end":451.404,"text":"我想國家的錢嘛 公款就是公用啦是那有聘助理當然就有撥啦那沒有聘助理理解上應該是不可以啦喔 那您剛剛回答王逸川委員的說法你自己忙打臉自己囉您剛剛回答王逸川的是說你依法還是要撥款那現在 好 您再回答你可以更正沒有關係如果這一個助理 這個立委沒有聘任任何助理"},{"start":452.265,"end":476.516,"text":"然後他每個月的這個助理費是零啊因為陳玉珍的法案是鬆綁了所有的下限上限的人數嘛那你的每個月四五十萬的助理費是不是依舊撥款您再嚴謹的回答一次我剛剛回答的跟現在沒有違背啦我剛剛回答的是說如果我們的法律是這樣的規定這樣通過的話那它就是一個統籌運用的概念"},{"start":477.557,"end":504.038,"text":"好那你又回答刚刚就没有所谓的那我听懂了您的意思确实就是陈玉珍要除罪话他的提案的核心要指助理费就是立法委员实质薪资之一部分立法委员对此一补助费之运用自有完全的处分权限其运用范畴不以助理费为限这是他的提案说明"},{"start":504.178,"end":528.691,"text":"我想委員誤會啦 我沒有去做我沒有去就陳委員的草案來做任何的分析你這樣繞來繞去那你到底撥不撥款看他法律怎麼規定我們怎麼處理啦應該是這樣所以現在的法律是沒有陳玉珍這個惡法啊如果這個惡法過了你就是得撥款了不是嗎是不是就是這樣嘛"},{"start":530.698,"end":540.466,"text":"這就是我剛剛所回答的那個依法執行就是這樣子所以這是讓大家大吃一驚啊我們來看最後一頁喔 進負二讀那一頁我是覺得這件事情除了是助理的工作權 勞動權益之外這更是國會專業問政的提升"},{"start":553.123,"end":580.788,"text":"我們的助理費就像剛剛Pelosi的那個議案就是要提升我們的合理的薪資可以去聘任到專業的人他願意投入公共事務他願意來為國家的立法修法為國家的預算把關來進行最好的一個公共服務所以他必須有合理的待遇但是呢現在的立法院不需要專業了我說真的不需要專業了"},{"start":582.287,"end":600.547,"text":"在你們偉大的韓國瑜院長周萬來秘書長的領導之下搭配藍白主導法案不用審啊 禁負二讀就好啊委員會的專業討論算什麼完全都不需要委員會的討論了"},{"start":602.645,"end":629.477,"text":"如果有委員會的討論就像年改翁小玲讓我們用一天的時間來討論年改2017年是花了一整年社會討論年金改革2025年用委員會各一天的時間每個立委只有三分鐘翁小玲說她要嚴格限制委員的發言時間因為翁小玲認為充分的討論是不需要的"},{"start":631.231,"end":652.048,"text":"這個還是有交付委員會審查的議案 每個委員三分鐘我當立委 也三任了我過去當任國會助理 二十多年前我從來沒有看過這麼好混的立法院委員會 每個委員只要三分鐘請他坐下來就好了不需要專業 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謝謝主席我們主席 我本來要跟主席要抱怨一下好 沒關係 我先請我們法務部的法治司司長今天是司長好 司長請"},{"start":17.816,"end":35.557,"text":"其實今天主席離開但是因為這可以做記錄我覺得今天我們的報告應該要有那個應該要有司法院的代表因為今天我們討論助理費相關其實法院也有很重要的角色"},{"start":37.739,"end":41.061,"text":"我在這邊先針對我們今天的專題報告當然主要是來自於陳一貞委員的提案我認為這個案子就是大家討論了這麼多也引起我們立法院這是不分各政黨黨派的助理高度的關注"},{"start":60.354,"end":77.791,"text":"我個人認為就是未來的這個法案的修法應該秉於兩個原則第一個就是不能夠侵害助理的權益這個是很重要的因為助理剛才我們主席說助理是我們的家人其實助理"},{"start":78.571,"end":104.663,"text":"對於立法委員或者對議員來講他就是我們的夥伴他就是我們的夥伴事實上不管是議員或助理他的這個所有他問政也好或者是他在地方的服務也好其實助理很多就是我們的分身所以我們是一個共同體是共同體所以不能夠侵害我們助理的這個權益那第二個那個原則應該是公款公用"},{"start":105.163,"end":125.321,"text":"我覺得這兩大原則是非常重要的但是過去其實十多年來因為有關於助理費乍領助理費的爭議不斷有人形容說這是歷史共益有人說形容歷史共業所謂共業就是說不管你是哪一個黨派都會有"},{"start":128.204,"end":146.325,"text":"議員或者立委要涉入其中那但是呢 我為什麼今天一開場我就講說今天應該要有司法院的代表來但是呢 我覺得我想先就一個案例一個案例來就教於我們法務部"},{"start":147.466,"end":156.376,"text":"那就說有關於助理費的制度的設計照理說我們今天不管修法如何怎麼樣修法它應該所謂的一體適用應該是一體適用那也許地方的議員的助理費因為它是兩個不同的法律"},{"start":165.666,"end":190.1,"text":"但是同一部法律就應該一體適用所以我在這邊要特別提到就是新竹市長高鴻安的助理費的爭議他的助理費爭議主要是來自於加班費的使用來自於加班費使用他被判重刑7年4個月而且停止了市長的職務"},{"start":193.43,"end":206.519,"text":"因為呢 高鴻漢當時當立法委員的時候他的團隊他的團隊的助理呢是來自於我們的監察院前秘書長李敬義秘書長的這個團隊"},{"start":209.401,"end":233.063,"text":"所以高鴻安一直爭議的是他們在他們的辦公室團隊所使用這個加班費的這個的方式事實上是沿用沿用李俊逸委員當時是李俊逸委員辦公室的方式那因為這個案子後來扯出李俊逸那麼"},{"start":234.184,"end":236.005,"text":"當時北檢有沒有調查呢北檢是有調查的北檢是有調查的那麼也傳喚了他的助理這個助理叫黃惠文那因為他就是涉及高鴻安這個助理費他的加班費的這個"},{"start":253.49,"end":268.425,"text":"就是依貪污治罪條例他這個不是只有高鴻安被治罪那麼其他的助理老實講那時候我們討論很多我印象裡他們其實他們的費用非常非常少但是全部都判刑當然有很多都判了緩刑"},{"start":269.486,"end":298.866,"text":"那李俊逸這個案子呢北檢當時確實有分案調查而且傳喚助理到庭說明根據這位助理黃惠文的說法說法他對外的說法他說確實因為他是在李俊逸辦公室是要用這樣的方式然後到了高鴻安委員的辦公室也用這樣的方式他的方式就是說你拿到你的加班費然後再回捐再回捐到辦公室由辦公室來做使用"},{"start":299.826,"end":317.639,"text":"好高鴻安現在二審即將宣判二審即將宣判但是李靜怡的案子到現在已經32個月32個月沒有下文請問一下市長"},{"start":318.925,"end":330.851,"text":"像這樣子的案子 一個案子已經二審都要宣判了那另外一個類似的案子32個月沒有下文 合理嗎"},{"start":333.396,"end":358.273,"text":"你笑了不是我不是笑我只是說各該案件都有各該案件的事證的問題那我想這個部分來講因為我個人是法治單位那檢查機關他當然本於他的職長都會就是就相關的事證來做一個認定那因為不同的案件事證的不同情況之下可能偵辦的一個過程裡頭就會有時間上頭"},{"start":364.376,"end":369.538,"text":"看起來好像李俊逸這個案子好像特別複雜這應該要回到該個案那我們不會去試射到個案來做討論通常這都是你們的標準答案我還是很有耐心的讓你回答因為這要有記錄"},{"start":383.162,"end":396.999,"text":"但是這個案子所以就難免被外界認為說是不是雙標 你懂我意思嗎高鴻安他有辦 而且呢現在我就說已經到了二審即將宣判李俊逸將近"},{"start":398.2,"end":420.626,"text":"32個月很快的3年就過去了我們也不曉得這個案子第一個到底有沒有在偵辦第二個他到底就是在檢察官新政認為能不能所以我一直在講說我們說建立制度很重要但是呢不管檢調或者是法院他的新政跟他的辦案態度也很重要"},{"start":421.326,"end":432.534,"text":"黎智英這案子 他的案子也是同樣的也是用他的加班費把他回捐根據這個他的助理的對外也是這樣子公開的講法也是一樣那麼"},{"start":435.3,"end":464.059,"text":"這個案子呢當然我後來再看他這個助理有講他說李俊逸他不管錢他講了一個說李俊逸不管錢好但是無論如何但是無論如何你今天拿了讓助理拿了加班費再回捐出來那李俊逸的案子到底可不可以那沒有道理說這個案子第一個我也不知道他辦的怎麼樣第二個你不然就牽結他你覺得他沒問題你就牽結他你也不牽結"},{"start":465.841,"end":478.632,"text":"你認為不需要起訴你就不起訴他也可以你不然覺得起訴他那大家就再來那個什麼我想李俊英自己法律出身對不對他一定會為自己的那個什麼來辯護"},{"start":480.314,"end":503.541,"text":"結果什麼都沒有所以這樣子的做法到底OK不OK還是告訴你高鴻安不OK李靜怡就OK所以這個助理費相關的案件為什麼會引起這麼多爭議為什麼會引起這麼多的商標這個是其中之一另外我再特別提到一個就是"},{"start":506.761,"end":523.955,"text":"這個因為時間有限我要講一個案例這個案例我也覺得非常扯因為有非常多的助理我剛講藍的綠的白的都有這個案例那其中有一個是台南市議員王家珍的案例我剛講說"},{"start":525.851,"end":535.704,"text":"第一個我們不能傷害助理的權益第二個我們應該公款公用王家珍這個案例呢他的特殊是在什麼地方啊"},{"start":536.9,"end":556.589,"text":"是在於他因為他有兩個助理可能是積欠卡債還怎麼樣的他會被法院執行所以呢他有高報其他助理的助理費然後再把其他的助理費呢再拿來去補助再去補貼給這兩個助理"},{"start":559.25,"end":584.075,"text":"這個在法官的裁定之下裁定是很確定他確實是取之於助理用之於助理他可能拿ABC助理然後把他拿在把他的費用再拿給另外兩位他被法院執行就是因為如果你再報他就是被法院執行拿不了那麼多錢所以王嘉珍的例子是"},{"start":584.935,"end":598.772,"text":"他一毛錢 他一毛錢都沒有放在自己口袋裡他取之於助理 用之於助理所以後來法院怎麼判他呢法院沒有判他貪污自罪條例但是說他 就是說他那個"},{"start":600.254,"end":621.783,"text":"就是偽造文書 使公務員登載不實就判他緩刑我想法院也有 也有這個憐憫之心啦他也想說 你根本就是沒有 你一毛錢都沒有放在自己口袋裡啊所以呢 判他緩刑可是王家珍還是認為要爭自己氣他說我一毛錢都沒有拿 我是清白的那"},{"start":623.584,"end":643.296,"text":"他判他緩刑 所以他就沒有去選擇他去繳罰金你要判緩刑 他認為說自己是清白的結果 這個我們那個召委非常清楚啊結果我們立法院修改了我們的公職人員選罷法說你判緩刑 不能參選"},{"start":648.226,"end":654.818,"text":"王嘉生當年因為這個案子他不得成為候選人中選會不讓他登記"},{"start":656.409,"end":681.291,"text":"所以我要講的 這個源自於一個助理費 你以為他乍領助理費可是法院其實也某個程度法院還他清白說你沒有乍領所以他根本沒有用貪污治罪條例辦他啦他就說你其實通通都用在助理身上你是因為認為助理這樣子如果這樣子被法院執行那實在這個所得太低了"},{"start":682.412,"end":704.541,"text":"他用這樣的方式 結果呢 判他緩刑當時法院 我在查法官也沒有想到說最後竟然會修一個說緩刑不得參選當時是想要 可能想用這種方式這種方式來處理可是這個案子呢就有出現違反這個比例原則的問題啊所以對王家珍這個議員來說他沒有任何的貪污啊"},{"start":712.182,"end":723.008,"text":"他是公款公用啊他也維護助理的權益啊他通通都符合可是最後其結果他竟然被褫奪他被參選的權利所以我今天講了這幾個案例是在這麼多年來很多案例"},{"start":732.953,"end":753.161,"text":"被大家討論所以我們現在同樣一個一個助理費的制度之下會出現這麼多不公平的事情確實出現了這麼多不公平的事情你老實說我剛剛為什麼在講那個說召委應該把法院叫來我們同樣的那個在新北市一位議員應該是周雅玲議員"},{"start":756.002,"end":759.564,"text":"他的狀況是什麼呢都已經確定他有把助理費拿去繳房貸拿去繳什麼社區管理費 八八八 都有可是呢 法院最後怎麼樣認定呢法院說 啊 可是你啊在這個服務地方啊 什麼等之類的你的公費的支出啊 也很多所以呢 最後呢 也判他緩刑"},{"start":780.58,"end":793.21,"text":"可是他的狀況他跟王家政王家政是一毛錢都沒有放過自己的口袋裡面但是周雅玲是確實拿去繳錢繳自己的自己的房貸錢繳自己的那個什麼他們從金流通通都查出來"},{"start":794.591,"end":820.692,"text":"但是他後來以說啊我可能這種什麼紅白帖啊什麼吧啦吧啦就說你這個也有一定的數量就是有點像大水庫理論這個大水庫理論呢在很多的法院有一些法官採取大水庫理論他會給予比較輕的刑度有一些法官根本不採刑只認為你只要你只要沒有公用我就重判"},{"start":822.138,"end":844.581,"text":"所以在這些制度下所以我覺得因為今天沒有法院沒有法院的代表來當然有我們法務部您剛才講說你也沒有辦法什麼救個案但是我要講就一個加班費光是一個加班費的制度就出現了一個制度一個法條兩個世界"},{"start":846.62,"end":858.162,"text":"這個就是外界所認為不合理的到現在我都不曉得到底你如果按照那個高鴻安的做法或按照李俊逸的做法到底OK不OK呀"},{"start":859.508,"end":880.404,"text":"不能說不同政黨有不同OK的方式所以我要講就是說我們在整個的修法過程裡面我再重述其實我個人非常重視助理的權益我自己是議員出身我到了立法院我第一件事我是第一個提出幫地方助理加薪法案的"},{"start":881.224,"end":905.79,"text":"立法委員當然後來很多我們跨黨派的很多的立委不管是提出修法或者是支持我自己從地方議會出來那我也真有敢於我們地方議會的助理確實工作量很大但是呢20多年當時我提出來是20幾年從來沒有加薪過所以我提出來幫地方議會的助理加薪那"},{"start":908.15,"end":933.861,"text":"當然我剛才講但是我們這種有關於詐領助理費仍然是層出不窮詐領當然是我們社會或者法律所不容但是我在這邊今天的質詢我要提出來就是我們在這樣的一個標準之下就即便我們現在沒有修法的標準之下仍然會有很多不公平的現象那這也是我們必須要去努力的一個方向以上 好 謝謝"},{"start":936.567,"end":941.653,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員接下來請莊瑞雄委員"}]}},{"id":"166349","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166349","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b199c83f047d62c9edb5fe7457644078f0b7d004183700ea535298a28bd9a4829e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:44:13 - 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謝謝主席有請陳明臻主委好 請主委"},{"start":17.97,"end":46.21,"text":"主委好隨著經濟部在兩個禮拜前核定台電的核電廠現況評估報告大家都非常關心核電何時重啟的情況畢竟這個揮打要落腳台灣還有非常多的工廠正在建設我們的供電到底能不能滿足AI的爆發大家都很擔憂也很關注根據修正後的運轉執照申請審核辦法要重啟要滿足三個條件我想您應該是在清楚不過的"},{"start":47.131,"end":53.718,"text":"第一個是台電要提交相關的自主安全檢查的報告16-1條台電要提交再運轉計畫書再來16-2條河岸會審核通過再做再運轉執行結果報告現在台電對外是講說明年3月會先提交再運轉計畫書給河岸會審查"},{"start":67.682,"end":80.171,"text":"而自主安檢呢台電目前是說有些部分要請延長協助預計在2027年的年中來完成然而在這個自主安檢的過程當中台電"},{"start":81.516,"end":107.567,"text":"或者有心人士會不會有一些要上下其手的地方呢比如說請原廠多次來評估比如說可以一次完成就分成多次完成能來一次做的變成來N次做或者控制交報告的品質報告該寫的地方沒寫不用寫的地方寫一大堆到時候時程延宕又開始踢皮球"},{"start":108.427,"end":136.092,"text":"說核安會沒有跟我們說要寫這個請問一下主委這個部分核安會有沒有辦法去監督這個時程跟報告的內容一次搞定而且越快越好有沒有辦法監督核安會已經跟台電做過溝通了我們要求的什麼有什麼標準都已經跟台電有做過溝通這方面請組長再補充一下"},{"start":137.555,"end":152.923,"text":"跟委員說明這兩份要提交的報告會裡面跟台電公司都有溝通那我會裡面也參考國外的經驗擬定的審查導則所以相關的技術細節跟審查的要項在裡面都有說明非常好請問這個會議相關的這個審查導則有公開嗎"},{"start":156.887,"end":171.499,"text":"有 在官網嗎 會議記錄會後提供給我們所以應該不會讓他們說一年半後一次交結果又不足吧是分次交還是一次交你們這個倒折是怎麼弄的這個倒折是整體性在看"},{"start":172.139,"end":193.175,"text":"那當然台電公司在法裡面我現在問細節突然你又要繞出去你說有倒折倒折是一年半之後交一次交還是分次交倒折不會去規範台電公司什麼時候交那交的內容是針對內容技術細節的部分那他一年半以後會不會來跟你講說做不完"},{"start":196.7,"end":223.608,"text":"這個可能就涉及到台電公司的整個管理部分所以真的是 主委我們這真的是提醒不要到時候幫有心人士背鍋不要到時候供電不足相關單位又把責任推給核安會你當時沒有叫我們要分次交我一次做結果老外過不來內容時間不夠你為什麼有沒有辦法分次進行"},{"start":224.608,"end":252.528,"text":"這個是不是應該河安會要多做一點事情畢竟經濟部這個工部長講說台電最快2027年中完成置評報告注意一下喔他講的喔決策在河安會這決策不是只是最後把關啦如果你最後把關你只是說要交喔要交這些這些喔過程當中沒有任何的督促監督的機制"},{"start":253.855,"end":277.381,"text":"會不會很危險啊這一點希望主委在這裡可不可以把全責講清楚我們看幫你們講了看了這個第16之1條最後一段有提到前條規定文件經營者得是需要注意喔向主管機關申請分階段提送可不可以分階段可以的可以嘛那你們島澤有沒有說分階段"},{"start":281.308,"end":300.66,"text":"我們就這樣 全民 哇 在這裡 河安會 哇 在這裡你要交這個啊 一年半剛剛也有委員 萬委員也提啦 有人說兩三年啊如果他說一年半他說做不到 兩年再交可不可以你可以說不可以嗎"},{"start":303.72,"end":326.531,"text":"這時間我們會和台電會密切的溝通是 所以相關會議記錄要公開要透明 之外我們幫你法條查好了經營者得市需要 得市什麼需要得市國民與國家的經濟發展的需要向主管機關申請分階段提送分階段有沒有可能有沒有可能 主委"},{"start":327.574,"end":342.039,"text":"是可以的可以的嘛所以希望這個主委這邊能不能建議一下台電繳交各項評估報告的時間也提供給他們建議在島則裡面並在收到相關的報告收一份"},{"start":343.052,"end":360.981,"text":"公告一份收一份公告一份我講的是公告內容跟缺失啦要透明我們不能這樣全民在這裡叭叭的等哇 一年半後他突然舉手啊 抱歉我做不出來那何安慧妳也不能在這裡叭叭的等嘛同意吧同意嗎"},{"start":361.806,"end":388.018,"text":"主委我們會跟台電密切的溝通好謝謝勇於認識喔不然喔台電到時候一次塞給你到時候又萬一真的有什麼理由正當理由我們可以理解可是你們認為理想的佼佼的程序分階段這個我要我覺得要讓他們知道啦否則到時候我是想要講說說核電重啟時程啊可能會影響到特定"},{"start":390.266,"end":403.257,"text":"業者的利益啦 不是我講的啦不是我講的啦 蔡英文前總統講啦光電有弊案我們的能源一直不足夠 零碳一直不夠"},{"start":404.602,"end":419.885,"text":"那就可能有弊案啊越漫長的重啟時間可能會越有人得利啊那同時前也一直在提醒嘛說我們要合律共存啊這個裡面啊我想相關的訊息啊"},{"start":420.646,"end":447.578,"text":"我就不仔細解釋大家細細品味也應該都懂啦所以我們為什麼我們今天要來督促和安會也謝謝主委勇於認識啦我們不要捲入這樣的一些權利利益的漩渦喔那剛剛喔所以我想這個您勇於認識喔但是整個我們的結構啊也應該機關的結構也應該要幫忙您啦我也幫您關心了就是說"},{"start":448.925,"end":469.488,"text":"原人會在兩年前被降為三級機關現在就是河岸會當初說得很好聽說是配合行政院組織調整但是有一些人看出來覺得說這是不是配合家園變成叫不動部變成叫不動委員會你可能叫不動經濟部可能也叫不動台電"},{"start":470.549,"end":496.247,"text":"那如今我們這個時勢在變了賴總統都含出了不排除任何有助於淨零能源的方案包括這是他的原話未來新的先進的核能那顯見整個時代都往前推那我就要請教主委您勇於認識我給予肯定但是現在三級機關核安會有沒有辦法去要求二級的經濟部"},{"start":497.748,"end":521.118,"text":"那台電又是屬於經濟部這個直屬的啊那三級機關要如何去協調二級機關如果未來牽涉到安全的事情在機關的架構之下變成經濟利益優先台電利益優先那安全利益呢所以這一點會不會有監督不對等的問題 主委您覺得繼續保持這樣的關係合適嗎嗯"},{"start":527.645,"end":551.57,"text":"目前我們是監守崗位做好核能安全管制工作如果未來核電廠重啟要調整機關的位階的話那確實對國際交流 人才培育 跨部位整合是有幫助的太好了 謝謝主委直接完整的唸出同仁幫你準備好的這個說法我們非常認同 為什麼"},{"start":553.832,"end":581.121,"text":"兩年前改編制的時候原能會的蔡前主委就懷疑在面對他當年高瞻遠瞩說面對未來小型核電廠SMR跟核融合的發展降級後能否因應國際趨勢有可能會遇到挑戰尤其如果核電要重啟核安會的工作會越來越重所以我想總是政府不能總要馬而跑又不讓馬吃草這個不能讓經濟利益"},{"start":583.402,"end":610.027,"text":"特定團體利益或公司的利益優於安全的這個考量所以我想這個您身為大家長有這樣的見地我們予以認同我們也在此也希望能夠向卓院長表達相關機關的架構的調整可能勢在必行那提到最後幾個點提到SMR本席有拜讀過國務院明年的SMR計畫書"},{"start":611.227,"end":634.097,"text":"有這樣的東西 非常好 予以肯定那裡面列舉了SMR的數項優勢哇 太棒了 非常清楚有我們的能源韌性與安全的概念在裡面電力調度的彈性國安層面 還有產業需求的方面淨零台碳的方面都是優上加優啊那對於這樣這麼適合台灣的SMR院長"},{"start":638.14,"end":662.949,"text":"你知不知道我們國家編多少錢的經費啊我很感謝你寫的這麼好嘛對啊 多少錢啊我們明年編的一億有拿到SMR計畫一億元我們一個特別條例1.25兆就要出去了沒有電能抗中保台嗎沒有電能保家衛國嗎"},{"start":666.396,"end":685.389,"text":"這個問題很簡單嘛 可以還是不可以 不可以嘛所以能源很重要 我在這裡跟各位站在同一線啦這個東西加上後年要實施的中長期計畫才10億一年平均大概2.5 那我們已經幫忙整理了各國的這個狀態 美國是100倍啦"},{"start":689.859,"end":708.188,"text":"1000億 甚至是1000億台幣是1000倍啊 1000倍啊法國政府362億 362倍韓國呢 2.16億美元 67 67倍請問主委那個主席不好意思 再接一點請問主委您認為這樣SMR的量能夠嗎 1億台幣啊目前只是起步而已 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谢谢主席我们有请陈主委主委请好 主委早委员长我们经济部在11月27号核定了核电厂现况的一个评估报告其中我们看到核一厂因为重要的设备都已经拆除了所以经过评估不再具有运转可行性但是核二核三厂都评估具有"},{"start":30.856,"end":54.257,"text":"再运转的可行性而且要启动自主安全检查那么台电呢也计划在明年的3月要提出核二核三厂的再运转计划那我们看到龚明新部长说核三厂最快在2028年的时候就会开始重启那朱友想请教您行政院或者是经济部他是有找核安会来讨论核电厂再运转的相关议题吗"},{"start":58.055,"end":81.527,"text":"没有没有喔那如果没有找你们讨论那我们这个龚部长去表示核三厂最快2028年初就可以拿到核安会核发的再运转执照那他这样子的说法这个底气从哪里来这个应该问部长吧那你同意他的这个说法吗我只能这么说了"},{"start":83.377,"end":99.772,"text":"國安會當然會依據職責嚴格審查時程上我很難給一個很確定的時程好 所以您這裡其實很難給這個時程但是廣布黨自己就說了2028那當然您是不知情的是這樣講嘛 對不對"},{"start":101.053,"end":121.668,"text":"当然如果要有很多条件之下是有可能的没关系所以他这样的说法是没有跟你沟通过的好那待会我们来看今年五月的时候卓院长说我们相关的安全检查的一个程序最少需要差不多三年半的时间但是巩部长又说了他说按照国际惯例"},{"start":122.228,"end":140.555,"text":"要去順利審查的時間是一年到一年半能完成那我想要請教一下主委那我想短短的這個半年期間安全檢查的這個時間相差這麼多那兩個人講一個講三年半一個講說一年到一年半那不曉得站在河岸會立場來看誰講的才是對的"},{"start":143.222,"end":155.073,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告過有影響師生有很多因素包括台電的準備資料台電對我們的問題的回復速度以及我們現場觀測結果過去的保養狀態所以他們兩個講的誰講的是更接近正確的"},{"start":163.649,"end":186.136,"text":"我現在還沒有做過評估你還沒有評估那個院長都已經講說三年半然後部長又講一個一年到一年半那你都不去了解一下說他們當中哪一個人講的其實可能有誤那你可能要去就是指點他們一下或提出一下問題點我想這也是您的責任嘛你怎麼可以說他們講的東西你還沒有了解喔我覺得這樣不好喔"},{"start":187.176,"end":210.706,"text":"所以是不是可以請主委會後下去以後你去了解看看到底誰講的是對的為什麼這時間差距這麼久這麼大這個差距其實是大的那你看其實如果按照經濟部的一個說法如果明年最快明年3月台電就會送了再運轉計畫給核安會來審查 審核那主委想請教一下那您剛剛說了就說這個"},{"start":211.926,"end":234.441,"text":"中間的變數跟可能的條件因素非常的多對不對那核安會有沒有去了解到底在國際上我們去做相關審查的程序要注意的事項或者制定的相關流程這個核安會都有去了解嗎有 我有請高署長對他們沒有關係有去了解嗎是不是有那我順便能不能補充一下剛才委員所提到一年半這件事情"},{"start":235.031,"end":242.297,"text":"那按照經濟部所講的是台電公司自行自主安全檢查所需要的時間大概一年半到兩年"},{"start":242.796,"end":270.844,"text":"那之後還要送到核安委來進行審查跟現場確認那這部分的時間我想您先幫他補充說明啦他自己並沒有講那麼詳細啦他講的就是說按照國際慣例順利審查時就是一年到一年半啦所以應該要這樣講啦就是說您看到不管院長或部長他們的說法有未盡之處或者錯誤之處其實應該要提出提點好不好以上我就是跟你做一個提醒喔好再來我們再來看到"},{"start":272.825,"end":292.145,"text":"核二厂我想据了解核二厂这个室外干室储存预计明年第一季就能够完成而且也已经在今年9月26号向核安会提出试运转的一个计划我想请教一下主委目前核二厂的室外干室储存设施运转计划的审查进度可不可以简单说明一下"},{"start":293.834,"end":321.739,"text":"有沒有預計什麼時候會審查完畢報告委員如果台電公司能夠順利就是對我們的議題做理性的話我們有望在今年的明年的2月能夠完成這個試運轉計畫的審查好就是說你預估是在明年2月但台電如果他的速度更快一點可能也會往前提意思是說看台電他送上來的這個過程是嗎我們有一百多項的意見給台電公司所以台電公司我了解我了解好那我認為啦"},{"start":322.379,"end":341.306,"text":"其实不管是核二或是核三场的重启其实我想都会有部分的民众他是有疑虑的所以核安会其实你作为一个审查的主管机关我认为也要去跟我们的民众说明相关的进度这个安全性等等所以这些跟民众的沟通相关的计划我们有没有在做"},{"start":343.827,"end":370.92,"text":"有沒有在做跟委員說明只要台電公司提出申請的時候會裡面會按照以往的做法會辦地方說明會好啦 所以其實你們跟台電橫向的這個往來其實也要更細緻更平凡一點啦好 那我再請教一下那我們看到環境部這個彭啟明部長昨天在受訪的時候也說依照現行的法規核電廠再運轉不需要環評但環境部站在督促的角色"},{"start":371.36,"end":382.441,"text":"他會確保審查納入環境相關的考量我想請教一下主委我們環境部是二級機關 核安會是三級獨立機關但彭部長說他要督促核安會您認為恰當嗎"},{"start":384.827,"end":409.453,"text":"我覺得他意見我們是覺得沒什麼問題啊所以可以接受他的督促我們平常就有密切溝通溝通跟接受他的督促層級上是不太一樣的我想跟主委講一下其實您應該也知道啦所以到目前為止我請教一下環境部有沒有針對核電廠重啟找核安會來討論呢你們討論過嗎"},{"start":413.225,"end":441.116,"text":"没有正式的讨论那有私下聊天不过我们会议跟环境部是有来往好然后我想请提问给我补充一下核安会是核能对于针对没关系那个主委不用了我想再请教一下如果彭部长他希望核安会在审查核电厂再运转计划的时候纳入环平的考量主委认为有没有这个必要"},{"start":442.352,"end":456.521,"text":"實際上已經納入了服務社對環境的影響評估本身就是核安會職責核安會這方面會負責全部責任至於其他的因素呢我們會跟"},{"start":458.603,"end":483.564,"text":"我认为啦我想和安会它是一个独立的机关我们跟其他的相关的部会假设有任何有关联的议题我们多往来多研究是好的但是因为我们是独立的机关我想主委这个要确保我们不要受到其他的干扰好再来呢要跟你请教一个题目这个我请一下主席我请一下那个国务院院的高子牧院长有在现场好时间关系我就直接发问好"},{"start":484.812,"end":508.788,"text":"我們看到去年底多達2.4萬公升的柴油流入石門大峻農灌系統導致周邊1.2萬平方公尺土地被匡列為污染控制場址我想請教一下院長2.4萬公升的柴油流入周遭的土壤跟農灌的系統這等於一輛滿載的油罐車的油"},{"start":510.089,"end":521.525,"text":"如此龐大的油量整車漏光光國園院確實等到環保局通知才發現院長我想請教一下國園院這樣的後知後覺監控上出了什麼問題"},{"start":524.887,"end":553.436,"text":"包委員我們在去年年底12月29號就有嚴密的配合環保局的調查那在1月2號我就親自沒有 總是不是你們發現的嘛對不對不是我們發現的是沒錯好油為什麼漏這麼久它因為地下是暗管暗管有街頭鬆脫結果就一直漏漏油整個禮拜院長你對啦你現在你也有跟我一個報告說漏油的原因是輸油管連接的法件鬆脫嘛是是"},{"start":556.618,"end":572.23,"text":"館長你這個回答其實我聽了更是心驚膽顫如果就只是一個罰件鬆脫如此嚴重的漏油如此量大的漏油那麼在本席看來這鬆脫了不只是罰件而已這可能是有人員的訓練管理"},{"start":573.331,"end":600.263,"text":"相關的鬆脫才嚴重啦所以經過這件事之後本席想要問一下國研院針對有污染風險設備操作的教育訓練跟SOP的流程等等有提出了什麼樣嚴格的規範了嗎報告委員 我們在這事故以後針對一公平以上的油槽通通要有液位偵視器還有錄影機監控它的液位在它漏油的第一時間 液位正常24小時有同人值班"},{"start":600.983,"end":629.469,"text":"去觀察大概有12口這樣的油槽就只要監測到有異常優惠就要回報不會讓它漏了一個禮拜有SOP了以後落實是很重要最後這個事件桃園市環保局開罰了這個84萬對不對但是國務院院針對被污染的土壤及水源還要進行相關的整治跟復原的工作那請問院長你有沒有去計算這次的漏油事件整個國務院院要花了多少錢"},{"start":630.409,"end":646.885,"text":"報告委員今年預計會花五千七百萬那明年大概兩千一百萬最近的兩年那等整治有確定的成果你想想看我覺得真的很離譜耶將近八千萬的預算經費你這是全民買單你的錯誤耶"},{"start":648.943,"end":662.81,"text":"這算不算全民買單你的錯誤是 所以我們在事件發生了以後有懲處相關的化工組組長化工組的所長化工所所長跟護所長因為都是檢認被懲處以後我們報到監察院監察院有發函來調查過兩次"},{"start":666.492,"end":683.747,"text":"我覺得一個結論啊 你知道嗎 你們的一個人為書師啊我覺得8000萬夠不夠 我都還不知道 全民買單這樣的預算是一個嚴重重大的浪費那第二個呢 相關的土壤可能有污染 水源可能有的污染我覺得你都沒有辦法做百分之百保證我覺得這一連串"},{"start":685.408,"end":710.082,"text":"這不是一個小小的說是疏失改善SOP就能做的事情我覺得針對這一件事情啊我希望這個院長會後啊給本席辦公室啊一個仔仔細細的報告包括事件發生的原因現在SOP還有未來你怎麼去落實SOP還有你的懲處還有未來這個預算上面你花到哪裡去了給我整套的計畫可以嗎可以多久的時間兩個禮拜以內"},{"start":713.297,"end":726.934,"text":"两个礼拜以内好那就十天可以吗好谢谢好谢谢万美林委员质询那官员请回座现在请葛如君委员质询"}]}},{"id":"166346","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166346","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b108195b7eba3327a2feb4e86bf6119d12b7d004183700ea53632dec9194285a125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:24:33 - 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謝謝主席麻煩有請法務部法治司司長審計部副審計長以及立法院的副秘書長來 請機關代表三位好 時間的關係不宜問候透過法律的修法為個案解套或免除刑事責任"},{"start":32.833,"end":51.479,"text":"在我國憲政史上最有名的是2013年5月31號會計法的修正那次的修正在院會裡面沒有經過任何討論四個黨團的黨鞭在一場後面的小會議室簽了黨團協商結論5月31號夜黑風高三讀通過"},{"start":61.193,"end":87.902,"text":"結果引發社會軒然大波當時馬英九總統出面道歉民主進步黨黨主席蘇貞昌出面道歉江一樺提出復議立法院不經過邀請行政院院長直接復議通過推翻原決議我想這在憲政史上史蹟斑斑"},{"start":89.585,"end":113.88,"text":"那一次整個公民社會也上了一課再一次針對有關於國會助理費的法制化開始出現了這樣的法制化 制度化是不是在幫個案修法解套的質疑這樣的質疑當然有討論的必要"},{"start":115.307,"end":140.265,"text":"公費公用公費公用剛剛法務部說得非常的好這是一個沒有辦法退的底線同時如果就跟自己職權相關的到下一屆才開始適用在憲政上面也是一個合一的作為但我現在看不懂我為什麼看不懂我離開立法院2020年離開"},{"start":143.086,"end":169.236,"text":"我最關心的一件事情是國務機要費修法的處罪化那時候我回到公民社會作為一個公民我眼睜睜的看著立法院在2022年為個案推動修法我看了今天法務部的書面報告寫的是直立有聲當年法務部對於這件事情卻是勁若寒蟬"},{"start":170.57,"end":181.182,"text":"當年的法務部當年是怎麼講的對於國務機要費將來是否修法除罪化本部尊重主管機關及大院職權這是當年"},{"start":183.619,"end":211.169,"text":"這是當年國務紀要費修法的時候法務部所表達的見解今天只有司長來我其實不想為難司長因為內容寫成這個樣子一定是當初部長的指示一定是當初部長的指示我只希望法務部回去看一看你們今天在書面文字上面所表達的態度跟當年所表達的態度標準一致嗎"},{"start":216.562,"end":227.623,"text":"市長如果不便回答就說不便回答我說了我不會為難你這一定是部長的決定當年這樣的法務部靜若寒蟬法務部有什麼想說的嗎"},{"start":229.291,"end":254.623,"text":"我想法務部這邊來講都是基於各部會分工來講的話都是尊重主管機關以及立法院的一個職權行使我想這樣的立場今天也沒有改變但是當然針對這件事情來講應該認真的去探究他在整個法評架上頭的意義意涵沒關係啊 說到這個地方我覺得也夠了我不為難你接下來請立法院"},{"start":257.245,"end":275.92,"text":"當初啦 在這個修法的過程當中啊因為爭議很大嘛所以啊 國務及要費的除罪化我們來回顧一下當年立法的討論一片空白第一個在委員會報告詢答的時候民主進步黨提案停止詢答沒有詢答在委員會大體討論的時候沒有大體討論"},{"start":284.673,"end":307.604,"text":"在委員會逐條討論的時候 民進黨提案停止討論全案保留送院會 9點開會 9點14分上會在委員會一片空白黨團協商的時候 也沒有進行黨團協商召開黨團協商 人沒有到齊嘛人沒有到齊 就送院會處理"},{"start":309.033,"end":338.095,"text":"上院會的時候沒有經過廣泛討論也沒有經過逐條討論會計法99條之一國務計要費的除罪化立法討論一片空白從委員會到黨團協商到院會沒有討論完全不用討論完全不用討論不是沒有討論沒有民主嗎還是特定的案件"},{"start":339.403,"end":344.465,"text":"只要符合民進黨的利益不用討論 為什麼要討論除罪話除罪話沒有討論啊立法討論一片空白民進黨狹人數優勢國務紀要費正式除罪話這不是我講的這個是新聞媒體下的標"},{"start":365.539,"end":393.45,"text":"這是新聞媒體下的標過去的這段歷史我們來看看對現在立法院的運作對現在立法院的運作過去黨團協商黨團協商有委員會召集協商的時候人沒有到齊或沒有共識2016年5月3號蘇嘉全就宣告發出協商會議通知而黨團未出席會議及"},{"start":395.871,"end":420.123,"text":"未達成共識一個月內只要發過一次通知無協商共識及無法達成共識所以怎麼樣所以那個時候在主持院會的蔡啟昌才宣告報告院會協商已於一個月無法達成共識依照立法院職權刑事法71條之一的規定有院會定期處理所以我要再確認一下在我們的立法院"},{"start":422.46,"end":448.768,"text":"針對立法院職權刑事法的解釋也好議事的先例也好委員會有召集協商沒有辦法達成共識本來就可以送院會處理我從過去到現在我的一直理解是如此我看議事先例也是如此但是最近好像開始又變了是不經過院長協商不能處理如果不經過院長協商要處理的話就要打架就要杯葛"},{"start":450.053,"end":468.613,"text":"這個是我們的議事規則嗎來麻煩請副秘書長幫大家示意一下謝謝委員那相關的議事規則我想都非常有明文規定啦那至於說怎麼樣子的會議程序基於國會治理原則我想尊重委員的一個行使方式"},{"start":469.844,"end":488.284,"text":"OK 你也是回答得很藝術不要進入比較深水區黨派跟黨派彼此之間黨團跟黨團彼此之間不同的看法我尊重但是我想藉由這個機會把意識的潛力把它說明清楚也有助於國人瞭解"},{"start":489.451,"end":508.865,"text":"也有助於國人了解 本來就是嘛那交協商 委員會開了協商沒有辦法達成共識 就送院會處理啊如果非要院長協商不可的話 那知識體大那院長如果沒有時間 公務繁忙那整個法案不就塞車了嗎來 接下來有請那個副審計長委員好副審計長好 有一個案子啊 我非常的關切"},{"start":519.082,"end":544.719,"text":"這已經是違法濫權貪污腐敗 莫此為勝我們速發部全額補助大同醫護取得資安院的標案違法履約驗收不實之前我在交通委員會質詢資安院的院長質詢速發部的部長莫名其妙拿舊的東西來結果可以出假的新品證明書"},{"start":547.421,"end":573.42,"text":"拿中國製的網通產品結果可以驗收通過驗收不實從頭到尾包庇放水想要蒙混過關這件事情我總共執行了三次我總共執行了三次事情非常的嚴重但是我是不知道我們的訴發部跟資安院是官官相護"},{"start":574.912,"end":591.381,"text":"彼此包庇上下交鄉賊混了半天內部還在討論到底要怎麼處理最近好像有一些結果快要出來了但我要真正認真的問是說他們也知道審計部在這件事情做了審計"},{"start":593.376,"end":601.367,"text":"那審計他們回覆目前審計部是他們有照實回覆還是想要用混的因為我還沒有機會問審計部這個問題啊藉由今天質詢的機會麻煩副審計長跟大家說明一下"},{"start":608.231,"end":623.3,"text":"這個案子我們實際在查核的時候有發現就是資安院他沒有落實履約管理所以才有剛剛委員所提到的就是有廠商用不實或不符契約的設備來履約"},{"start":624.801,"end":650.066,"text":"那另外有廠商繳交的不實文件而且那個也超於這個原來契約規定的這個時間而且沒有依照規定檢討來刊登政府財務公報那目前我們已經要求他來做相關的什麼時候要求的我們大概詳細的時間應該蠻早的因為我們原來委員在質詢的時候我們就已經有列管這個案子"},{"start":650.626,"end":670.415,"text":"列管到什麼時候我現在雞皮皮啊我質詢完開完記者會洪祈昌開記者會所以我指控不實啊我聽的是完全聽不懂啊完全聽不懂啊我講的連訴發部都承認連資安院都承認"},{"start":671.755,"end":698.997,"text":"然後還厚著臉皮 發 說我指控不實那今天審計部在這邊 按照審計調查的結果又再次的印證就是拿不實的東西來混嘛納稅人的錢 納稅人的錢拿不實的東西來混結果我們的訴發部 我們的治安院啊混到現在不曉得包庇到什麼時候啊 拜託審計部好好"},{"start":701.019,"end":727.359,"text":"這件事情一定要追到底啊 審計部列管到什麼時候跟委員報告就是最近我們在10月1號的時候我們有特別另外在函請這個治安院要檢討改善並且要查處相關人員的他回復了沒有 委司責任那數化部在那個12月他有申復啦目前他採取 申復喔不服喔覺得他做得很對喔"},{"start":728.399,"end":750.549,"text":"跟委員報告 目前速發部的答覆是啟動採購法廠商停權跟治安院人員的責任檢討那這個目前至於有一些部分涉及廠商有刑責的部分他也已給調查單位在偵辦中那個速發部回來給你們的方面提供給我嗎我們可以整理一下文件跟委員書面報告好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"166344","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166344","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b183f0161ce0712f3cb5fe7457644078f0b7d004183700ea534cbb1eeebf50ae7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:11:33 - 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我們他們還是進行之中對 進行到什麼程度我請那個高處長跟委員報告那廚藝計畫核安會已經審查完成完成了 核二核三都已經廚藝的計畫已經審查完成了對 可是現在要依法規就是台電公司要依法提出環境影響評估的報告對嘛"},{"start":59.28,"end":84.128,"text":"所以还要再提出环境的评估报告好了那目前我还知道最近有很热门的话题就是经济部也是特别提到的核三可能在2028年可以重启也就是再运转所以好像让大家看到核三跟核二又有一丝的一个机会了所以核安会到底会先收到的再运转计划还是除以计划我现在被搞得有点很混乱"},{"start":85.555,"end":88.576,"text":"所以你們他們也送出了廚藝計畫已經完成現在目前在做的評估報告對不對"},{"start":102.563,"end":120.741,"text":"环平报告那同样的他们也有机会因为我们今年五月当中呢就已经就核管法已经修过了还是可以申请这个再运转所以当经济部释放出核二核三可能有机会再运转的时候可能也会再送出再运转的计划报告没错吧"},{"start":121.562,"end":138.838,"text":"目前有收到吗目前还没有所以你们预估到底是废的这个到底是所以我说说像目前政策在怎么样就你们的主管单位来看你们好像只能做一个审查到底要再运转或是真正的除异完全是掌握在经济部的手上我这样的认知没有错吧"},{"start":141.014,"end":151.728,"text":"跟委員說明 如果台電公司依法提出申請那河岸位的職者就依法來審查對 那最後到底是要再運轉 或者是要真正處理是由上面的單位來做決定嗎"},{"start":153.723,"end":179.463,"text":"所有都是如果提出再运转的申请那核安委就审查如果审查都可以符合法规跟安全的要求那依照法规核安委就会核发再运转的部分核发运转执照好 所以说吧目前来说那你认为就像目前经济部长说照国外的经验审查的时程如果要再运转的话可能一年半也有可能到五六年之久那美国是18个月"},{"start":180.123,"end":207.222,"text":"那你个人认为说目前来说核安会应该要审多久如果要再运转以核三来说的话2028年有没有顺利再运转有没有机会再顺利运转2028年有没有机会再顺利运转我想跟韦英报告审查时程有很多因素没关系你不要跟我讲那么多我只问一个因为我们核三五月才除役2028有没有机会再运转"},{"start":209.463,"end":226.526,"text":"如果台電審查報告很完整回覆我們審查意見很快速回應我們現場視察都沒有什麼問題有沒有重大的零件需要更換"},{"start":227.327,"end":243.654,"text":"那当然是有可能对啊因为它5月你们过去就有安检5月才刚除疫所以2028来说的话照这样的时程来看是有机会的不过到底我们核能政策要走到什么程度来说你们目前就只是负责来做一个这个审查而已对不对对"},{"start":244.474,"end":262.105,"text":"好 说实在的我觉得河安会的角色不应该只有是这样子我们现在看一下SMR目前来说的话赖总统表态不排斥核能而且河安会似乎已经开始启动了你们明年要提出四年中长期计划预算八亿要开始来布局SMR没错吧"},{"start":263.745,"end":284.131,"text":"这数目还没有很确定但是你们变了8亿了表示大家已经开始来做这样的一个处理了我们2020年是确定是1亿后年以后还有连续4年的申请所以你们开始启动这个部分我只是告诉组委这个部分来说全世界都已经走在趋势的路上面了"},{"start":284.611,"end":302.998,"text":"你看COP28还有25个国家是属于2050年要实现和能增加三倍的宣言哦还有呢有很多国家跟进而且要达到2050年净零排摊的目标所以各国目前为止你看看我所调列的都是在积极SMR但是呢而且我们根据我们IA"},{"start":304.338,"end":318.485,"text":"IAEA就是原子能总数的这个统计到2024年底全国全球大概有20个国家是投入这个SM2的一个开发所以目前来说的话我们是不是脚步跟国家比起来是慢了一些"},{"start":320.029,"end":335.791,"text":"这方面我们当然会加快对啊你速度已经很慢了而且很多国家都是透过公私协力的方法来做主导所以未来我们有可能寻求美日等国家的一个协助大家共同来做这个开发然后加速它的时程吗"},{"start":337.056,"end":360.368,"text":"我们跟美国和日本的沿路非常密切我们也派人到美国的国家实验室参观他们的研究成果所以你应该知道美国制定新的一个框架它会简化声势的时程而且日本选择的是一个比较传统的方法所以未来我们将采取什么样的方式来做管制我希望你们也能满快做出这样一个研议"},{"start":360.768,"end":388.107,"text":"到底是美国的方式快一点还是日本的传统的方法而且我觉得最重要的是目前为止呢我们有规划要派人到欧美去做一些学习吧这点没有错吧是的但是你要知道我们核能的政策已经费了这么久的时间所有的核工的人才台湾已经很困难了连清大核工都已经改名你们当初所念的科系都已经名字不知道换到哪里去了所以说呢你们目前为止来说而且台电还传出要测材核发处"},{"start":388.707,"end":404.477,"text":"后来呢这整个工程虽然有做了一些的内容的一个调整但是合共的人才没有办法在台湾存留这是一个既定的事实你认为我们的人才有办法赶上未来整个核能全世界的趋势吗你认为以目前的人才的留置来说有机会吗"},{"start":406.041,"end":428.303,"text":"我觉得是在人为了我们就努力的话当然会会会改善我们和和安会也规划国家成成绩的原则研究你们要加快速度已经荒废非常多次的当初引以为傲的这些目前就是整个的核能的政策的错误你现在要重新再建制另外一批人才我只能说速度加快因为这是未来的一个趋势对"},{"start":428.983,"end":445.95,"text":"還有呢我還是要特別台電擺爛的中期暫時儲存的一個設施你們真的一點辦法都沒有嗎你們是他的盒管機關呢你看從過去到現在你們都說要持續要求台電研議中期暫時儲放的一個設施然後要提出具體的規劃的內容來提供給我們非核家園推動的小組來討論有嗎台電有提出來嗎有任何積極的做法嗎你們設施跟他打了行政訴訟還被法院給否決"},{"start":457.734,"end":463.777,"text":"你們是一個監管的機構結果呢現在連這一點權力都沒有難怪台電根本不鳥你們嘛不是嗎跟委員報告齁我們在今年的4月10號其實有新聞給呃那個費額行政費額小組請他們積極的積極然後你能怎麼辦"},{"start":479.204,"end":492.314,"text":"你看行政訴訟訴訟中撤銷裁罰撤銷裁罰你們要求結果這本來就是在法規上面是你們有掌握這樣子一個什麼的權利結果呢2017年應該通過要求台電2025年2月12起"},{"start":496.357,"end":518.715,"text":"启动这个储存设施的部分然后呢2029年要完成这个核废料的一个迁移这都是明文写在那个地方结果呢你们现在只能开发开发结果还被撤销那我所以说我就要请问一下何安慧对于这样的一个所谓的这个储存厂的一个一个设置或者储存厂的迁移你们到底能够发挥什么样的功用"},{"start":519.761,"end":533.099,"text":"你们现有的职权可以发挥什么样的功用所以只能书面纠正缺失继续要求改正是这样子吗这有任何的执行力吗这有办法吗"},{"start":534.286,"end":560.722,"text":"所以说整个能源政策我们就是完全混淆不清到底河岸会先接受到的是一个所谓的再运转的计划还是接到一个除异的计划目前为止你们两个都接收然后一切由上面来然后本来要求你们本来国家的政策里面不管怎么样我们要有一个中期的储存场你们有这样的权责可以要求台电去做台电不做你们就是要求开发开发之后法院认证"},{"start":561.602,"end":571.181,"text":"撤裁所以我想請問荷蘭會的功用到底目前會在哪裡你會不會覺得很無奈主委我真的替你感到很無奈一群專家坐在這個地方國家沒有人要聽你們的專業的建議你不覺得很無奈嗎"},{"start":575.944,"end":591.377,"text":"台电已经设有经济部已经设有那个核废料专责处理机构他要负责这方面的工作我知道可是在权责上面在法规上你要我念给你听吗在法规上面你们是有需要这样的一个功能的只是他们不选你们而已啊不是吗"},{"start":592.625,"end":621.593,"text":"一个最专业的单位里面我们的部分不甩然后呢还告诉我还要另设一个那我们到底在干嘛结床加物啊这次到底走到什么地方去啊何阿蔚是不是可以有一个更积极的作为但是我还是强调这不能怪你们我说实在以你们目前所能够掌控的这样子的可以的不管是胡萝卜还是你的棍子都没有办法所以我只能说是不是无奈果然还是很无奈我也很无奈"},{"start":624.518,"end":631.366,"text":"謝謝柯志仁委員質詢核安衛族官員請回座現在請謝龍介委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"166348","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166348","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b17f27dd0f2118155afeb4e86bf6119d12b7d004183700ea532eac597dcc0aeba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:37:12 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謝謝主席我們請立法院副秘書長跟勞動部的同仁 謝謝副秘書長還有勞動部專委李專委副秘書長好 委員好"},{"start":34.919,"end":52.508,"text":"請問一下這個最近陳玉珍等28名委員的提案你有看過嗎大概有看了一下好那這個提案跟115年116年2026年立法院的預算書的內容那有沒有要調整如果必要的時候我們的內容可能會做調整好那這個立委的這個公費助理的酬金"},{"start":64.332,"end":92.564,"text":"你們這個編這個酬金的當時的目的是什麼這個部分是協助公費助理是一個非常重要的一個協助委員的職務啦所以委員行使法定職權的時候助理都可以協助他好那如果這個助理的酬金直接由委員來統籌運用那按照陳玉珍委員的提案"},{"start":93.595,"end":111.857,"text":"那個有沒有規定立委一定要聘公費助理我想這個部分經過討論啦如果說這個法已經三讀通過了那我們會按照這個法的規定來處理那他就寫若干人因為要你們 換你們執行"},{"start":115.337,"end":138.413,"text":"這個部分應該是比較初步的一個抽象的規定吧那可能還有一個具體的一個如果答案就是做干人啊 沒有改啊如果這是一個法定強制的一個要求的話我想每一個委員的一個聘用的部分我們行政好 那他就是有可能聘零人嗎"},{"start":139.451,"end":163.223,"text":"那聘領人跟你們送到立法院來進行審議的預算就有衝突了因為當時你們比如說115年 邊是用113個立委每個立委8至14人的公費助理相關的費用總共大概一年8億8千多萬 沒有錯嘛那如果這個立委都不聘助理了"},{"start":164.193,"end":183.958,"text":"這些錢都按照陳玉珍的版本他都不聘助理了那就跟你們送進來的預算的內容已經完全不一樣了怎麼辦我剛才跟委員報告過了如果說法通過以後有必要的時候我們那個預算的編列當然會做相應的調整好 那他不聘助理你們要撥錢嗎"},{"start":186.124,"end":214.466,"text":"至於說如果說法通過他的一個前提是呃 聘用若干人的話那這個若干人到底有沒有有沒有包含0人這個部分我想是有一個解釋的空間啦那裡面的原來編的預算的8億8千多萬這個數字是用8到14人估的啊113個立委啊那你現在如果這些立委們的編的助理是0人那這個錢怎麼辦 這個錢你們要照撥嗎我講的是實際執行面這立法院要撥款啊實際也照撥嗎"},{"start":216.889,"end":240.087,"text":"我想這個部分啦 助理有多少人是由委員來聘任嘛 委員是一個僱主的概念嘛那叫聘零人嘛 那裡面錢也是照撥嘛沒有 如果說他沒有聘的話 我們這邊不會有撥款的這樣一個動作我們現在是按照委員所提的 到底聘了多少人是現在嘛 我說那個立法過了以後啦 陳律師的案子過了以後啦"},{"start":241.221,"end":264.27,"text":"這些錢就立委統籌運用嘛 不限發給助理費嘛他可以不發助理費啊 不發加班費啊通通拿去施用啊那這個時候你們撥不撥錢啊現在所有助理關心這件事情啊這個部分要看到時候 那個法通過以後法規定的內容來說不是法規定 按照成立這段版本通過的話啦我們現在不是要討論這些事情嗎啊這通過以後 你們是執行單位嘛"},{"start":268.544,"end":291.098,"text":"對吧 你們是執行單位嘛 那你們會不會撥款啦依法執行會不會撥依法執行你會不會撥啦要看當時候的法律 依法執行嘛就撥嘛 對不對那撥了以後委員都不報助理的這個勞動的這個報酬 都不報因為這統酬進來之後啊 立委有可能就報零人啊那助理都不請了助理都不請了 那立法還能怎麼樣沒有要怎麼樣 是不是"},{"start":299.434,"end":328.072,"text":"尊重委員的權利就尊重委員權利所以在立法院的立場立法院在副秘書長代表秘書長來你們的立場就尊重委員委員如果不請助理你們請趙波不請助理你們就尊重委員 對吧有兩個要件啦第一個要件當然就是合法啦到時候的法律怎麼規定就怎麼來執行如果就是通過陳立正的法案啦你們請趙波啊 立委不請助理不給這個助理的酬金你們就尊重委員嘛 對不對"},{"start":329.434,"end":331.555,"text":"沒錯吧 好 來勞動部那如果有請了助理 然後不給基本工資勞動部怎麼做顧問關係成立 那他就是適用勞基法的對象那就不能低於我們規定的最低工資好 那我不併他當公費助理那他這個勞工的權利怎麼保障"},{"start":356.74,"end":382.846,"text":"不是公費助理其他勞工的雇傭關係也是一樣只要是有雇傭關係是適用勞基法對象都要符合最低工資那勞健保去哪裡保勞保的那個部分有我們勞工保險條例那健保這個部分我就勞保去哪裡保勞保是跟我們的勞工保險局就是如果他是法令規定一定要投保的對象那就是要必須要依法要投保"},{"start":383.396,"end":407.98,"text":"那現在按照你的了解這案子接下來那這一個雇主會是誰立法院的公費助理的勞僱關係他是成立在立法院的委員跟我們的助理之間委員跟助理之間那雇主的提撥呢依法應該要提撥就是這個立委要提撥立委的錢就是說"},{"start":408.516,"end":415.86,"text":"撥給我們統籌運用的錢我們要提撥只要是有成立雇用關係所有勞基法上的權益都要符合好來那個副秘書長按照成立真的版本統籌運用之後的這一個雇主提撥也撥給委員嗎要依照勞基法相關的規定來處理所以撥給委員啦還是才是放在你們那裡啊現在是你們駙馬對不對"},{"start":434.284,"end":458.861,"text":"現在公費助理是你們付嘛那你們現在給立委統籌運用了嘛 對不對我們現在的公費助理是撥給委員那邊去做運用因為僱主是委員啊我說僱主提撥那個錢啊就你們這裡撥出去嘛 對不對就是依法提撥 那細節的部分可以請人事處長來做不是啦 我是說那接下來那筆錢也是撥給委員統籌運用是不是啦如果法律是這樣規定的話"},{"start":459.468,"end":464.911,"text":"那就委員統籌運用嘛 那委員也不聘助理那統籌運用那些錢要不要還給立法院啊我就沒請助理啊 我怎麼會有雇主提撥勒邏輯上是啦邏輯上是這樣啦當然就是這國家的錢大家要沒有去運用的話當然要回到國庫啊有統籌運用啦 他那個條例有統籌運用不用還啊"},{"start":482.671,"end":494.593,"text":"國醫院的部分 簽署比較細節的部分啦到時候的那個法律規定的內容是怎麼樣我們才是依法的不是 叫陳醫生的版本啦你是有看版本 我一開始就問 你有看沒有啊那是草案而已 那不是阿伯看的啊那我照那個通過啦"},{"start":496.4,"end":518.192,"text":"照那個通過你們怎麼執行啦我就不 就立委沒有請助理那僱主提撥的那個錢也會撥給立委嘛 那立委要不要去付是立委決定嘛 那我就不付會怎樣啦僱主有沒有請助理跟他有沒有提撥錢是兩件事不是啊 你錢要撥過來嘛 請的助理才會有提撥錢沒有請助理就不會有提撥錢嘛 你錢是不是要撥給立委嘛統籌運用嘛 對"},{"start":521.83,"end":538.255,"text":"如果說法通過是全部撥給立委他去統籌運用他當然就由委員來統籌運用不是 裡面有含那個僱主的提撥嘛他就要依法提撥啊他就沒有請助理要提撥沒有助理就不用提撥啊沒有請助理 那個錢要不要還啊你們的預算裡頭就是會一次撥過去嘛那就要看那個項目有沒有符合相關的法律規定"},{"start":547.654,"end":552.477,"text":"你都會提撥就對了 你都會提撥過委員要怎麼用是委員的事嘛如果按照現在陳立正的版本就是現在這8億8千8億8千127萬9千元今年度假設今年度的這個數字這個錢你們就全部撥給113個立委嘛"},{"start":574.335,"end":586.999,"text":"是一個統籌運用的概念假設這樣是一個概念的話那當然就依照這個概念來做處理所以8億多全部撥給113個立委每個立委就是多了779萬多這個數字那這個數字你們撥出去後面立委要怎麼統籌運用立法院管不著"},{"start":595.626,"end":619.043,"text":"法律如果這樣規定我們當然就這樣執行啦所以你們就是一個基本上委員跟助理之間當然就是好啦 所以你們就是一個轉帳的機構就對了我們是行政協助就轉帳嘛就把錢轉給立委立委要怎麼用是立委的事嘛那如果法律規定是統籌運用在你們的角度就是把這個錢撥給立委嘛那後來立委要不要用怎麼用也是他的事嘛好 謝謝好 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許主任"},{"start":1492.659,"end":1520.292,"text":"你的隨乎我這邊電話紀錄都有啊我們昨天就要問為什麼今天協商要開9點啊我們難道不能夠請教院長嗎院長連這樣的資訊都不願意接嗎來我講兩件事情今天我們罕見的草野協商定在9點這個9點不是不可以你要今天凌晨一點我們都奉陪但是今天我們的協商題目有其中包括了"},{"start":1520.782,"end":1548.862,"text":"公務人員退休之前撫恤法這個法在哪裡審在司法法制委員審這個法我們進行協商的時候司法法制的委員需不需要來表達意見需要再來公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤法還有青年基本法草案這兩個法一個是教育要跟司法法制聯席一個是教育委員會主審"},{"start":1550.424,"end":1578.564,"text":"今天我們的教育委員會的委員有幾位都到現場來了我們的召委也來了因為今天教育委員會有安排啊對安排核安會要來進行業務報告啊今天司法法人會有安排啊莊瑞雄召委安排什麼安排要審公費助理任用法這兩個委員會的召委都必須是召開主持相關的會議"},{"start":1579.912,"end":1599.093,"text":"那居然院長居然就這麼準9點鐘在這裡召開朝野協商逼的這兩個委員會跟今天我們協商主題相關的委員會的委員他沒有辦法來參與根據我們立法院的立法院職權行使法進行黨團協商的時候各黨團參與協商的代表"},{"start":1603.578,"end":1628.223,"text":"應該要除了黨編之外要有該協商主題委員會的委員在場那想請教一下我們院長什麼時候您過去有曾經發過早上9點開協商的嗎過去我們的秘書長有沒有提醒你你要召開協商的時候有沒有注意到今天協商的主題有相關的委員會今天仍然有排議程"},{"start":1629.445,"end":1658.616,"text":"这样子明显的造成我们委员没有办法依照委员会中心主义去进行委员会的审查还要来兼顾我们的朝野协商所以就两点请院长那么说明第一点我想前面那点就不用说了主席院长为什么昨天不接电话为什么我们三番两次打给您的主任许元龙先生他没有办法把意见转达给你那个我们私下再跟院长请教但是身为我们协商的主席"},{"start":1660.388,"end":1674.315,"text":"兩點就是為什麼九點開協商為什麼要選在跟其他兩個委員會同時跟今天主題有關的委員會召開的時候同時協商能不能請院長請主席或者請今天安排議程的州外難民署長說明"},{"start":1675.416,"end":1692.294,"text":"因為周冠雷秘書長他本來是在司法法治委員會他應該要去列席說明公費助理任用法公費助理任用法到底立法院秘書長要代表立法院來發言結果他上面請假"},{"start":1693.346,"end":1718.854,"text":"請假原因說今天早上的9點院長開協商難不成他不想要去上面列席說明公會助理任用法特別請院長定9點開協商讓他有理由上面請假這邊來出席請院長呢讓秘書長一併說明好謝謝鍾嘉斌委員的發言不過太多誤會了我感覺誤會太多了好沒關係因為羅志強委員已經舉手請羅志強委員先發言"},{"start":1721.912,"end":1738.603,"text":"早睡早起身體好對不對早上開會也那麼多藉口我也搞不太懂我覺得剛剛嘉賓兄講話我沒講話不要插嘴好不好這麼沒自信心講話就開始嚇到插嘴不要來"},{"start":1741.005,"end":1766.533,"text":"最起碼這個小學生規則懂一下剛剛講話我沒有他講話沒講話不要講話安靜乖乖第一個早睡早起身體好早上開會有什麼了不起的也不要當大家沒帶過委員會招委今天就算今天要下來發言還是可以找其他委員帶招委你不要跟我講在委員會裡面沒有發生過帶招委"},{"start":1767.533,"end":1791.659,"text":"你下一發個言你上去再繼續當召委一樣啊委員會要審案反正我們委員會質詢反正就跑來跑去的啊今天這些反正這麼重要請問院長我們周秘書長今天來主持這個我們的協商這是天公地道天經地義啊真的早上爬不起來跟院長講一聲啦就這樣子啊早上開會9點開會到底什麼問題我也搞不太懂"},{"start":1794.164,"end":1817.107,"text":"九點開會的問題在哪裡 我真的不懂啊對啊 早睡早起身體好對嘉賓胸身體有幫助啦不要再鬧了 好 謝謝好 謝謝羅志強委員的發言我們現在請台灣民眾黨同仁發言嗎好 不用 我們沒有發言我們現在 我知道 會許願 我知道民眾黨同仁發言意見啦 就支持境外開會好 我們請周秘書長簡短2要跟大家報告一下"},{"start":1819.422,"end":1839.69,"text":"這個報告黨團協商會其實這個會議的議程的安排不是民主黨在安排的這是必須要說明從來不是民主黨在頒這個議程的從來沒有議程不是民主黨要頒擺黨團協商的議程民主黨是不參與的從來不參與確實 我再跟你說明這個從第四屆開始的黨團協商大概是院長跟議事處"},{"start":1846.093,"end":1846.799,"text":"由藝術來管控這一場的議程"},{"start":1849.52,"end":1877.268,"text":"不不 你聽我講吧我們先不要打岔吧我們請秘書長注意整個一個流程吧從來沒有秘書長沒有在編你黨團協商的議程從來沒有我當副秘書長從議事處長到副秘書長到現在秘書長從來沒有秘書長從來不介入這個黨團協商的議程這是第七 第六的說明第二 如果各位如果要很堅持的話就法言法從六十八條 六十九條去看黨編才參加這個黨團協商的"},{"start":1879.748,"end":1906.634,"text":"沒錯沒錯 你自己去看這是從為什麼第一次的時候剛才一開始要求黨團是由黨編來後來慢慢的就要求有相關的委員進入到這裡面來這一屆開始都是這樣處理所以為什麼有除了黨編以外還有其他相關的委員會來這邊就從這一個從第一次的黨團協商這一屆開始慢慢的演變的流程就是這樣這我做一個補充說明"},{"start":1908.301,"end":1933.327,"text":"謝謝我們民進黨沒關係你可以再次詢問沒有問題來 議事規則我們稍微等一下因為你剛剛發言提到我這個絕對沒有任何刻意的要閃躲委員會的報告或者怎麼樣一點都沒有這一點一定要跟各黨黨幹部來報告那今天早上九點開這個會是希望能會因為題目非常的多我們希望能把這個會一大早來舉辦而已沒有任何什麼陰謀啊"},{"start":1934.787,"end":1955.271,"text":"什麼其他不當的聯想千萬不要誤會千萬不要誤會好不好這點我一定要跟各位黨人我們都長期一直不停的開朝野協商希望這個基本的信任一定要有絕對沒有逃避的問題好不好我們請柯總召見韓院長我看你話講得很漂亮事實上就是逃避啦"},{"start":1957.414,"end":1982.75,"text":"没有关系啦我是觉得今天还是持续照进行但是中央兵适当的抗议也要给他尊重就好了好吧就这样开始吧请不坐嘉宾委员您要二次发言吗您请我这是针对我们秘书长您提到68条69条请你看第70条70条的第二项他提到"},{"start":1983.564,"end":2008.662,"text":"各党团指派制代表其中一人因为审查会委员我们这里的第三案第四案分别有司法法治委员会分别有教育文化委员会各党团今天来参加的协商的代表至少要有该审查委员会的委员我没有说其他没有但是今天几天的议程安排就造成了这些委员要来出席协商是明摆着"},{"start":2009.235,"end":2035.728,"text":"是有衝突的我是請周安來周秘書長回去您號稱是我們的活字典議事規則70條看一下六案執行先生我簡單講幾句好了秘書長請求二字八言各位去看沒關係我講兩分鐘你既然要講70條70條是議案的召集委員是各委員會的召集委員在處理的你各位看的是68條就是9條"},{"start":2038.03,"end":2059.608,"text":"請自己再仔細這個 院長不要再政變了朝野協商黨內三黨參加這是沒有錯有關於議案的話各議案的召委或相關提案委員都可以參加我們天天在演都是在這樣做今天我覺得多餘的地方就不要了我們趕快開始吧"},{"start":2060.629,"end":2084.441,"text":"好 謝謝柯董董院長希望你以後引以為戒 這個有逃避之時沒有 絕無逃避之時我知道你的絕無了 好不好我是絕有要逃避什麼我們就是很正常的開會 想法都很大我們兩個趕快休息好不好好 謝謝 為什麼我們今天討論院長 那個我們因為是黨團幹部你 范議員也有舉手發言請監導二要 謝謝他們發言 我現在國民黨好 國民黨團要發言 副總召請"},{"start":2089.703,"end":2117.012,"text":"我想今天大家竟然有這麼多的議案要協商我們應該盡快來進行程序的發言不要這麼冗長尤其是在這個是院祭的草野協商院主持的草野協商不是委員會召集的草野協商剛剛講的嘉敏兄非常優秀把條例都找得出來但是要看清楚那是委員會"},{"start":2118.956,"end":2125.578,"text":"的草野協商今天是院長召集的草野協商是不一樣的本來就是黨同幹部才能參加的"},{"start":2126.773,"end":2152.609,"text":"而且本來這個協商就在過去在過去20年30年有很早甚至早過9點的都有也有協商到三更半夜第二天持續的都在進行沒有什麼要挑哪一個時程良辰及時來開的其實這是院長的職權也是希望趕快把相關的法案做程序上的處理儘快來完成"},{"start":2153.786,"end":2180.394,"text":"我想這個我們都應該要尊重這是最基本的院長職責好不好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們現在開始先進入我們今天的協商主題我們先介紹一下今天列席的官員我們內閣閣員內政部劉部長好 謝謝原住民委員會的副主委谷仲副主委好 謝謝那我們現在開始進入114年度附屬單位預算案"},{"start":2182.959,"end":2191.678,"text":"現在內政部進入到作業基金"},{"start":2193.33,"end":2216.047,"text":"業務費用456億我們改組決議 王玉敏為提案好 各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見我們改組決議第二項是服務費用台灣民眾黨團凍結10%改書面報告內政部有沒有意見 請表達意見沒有意見 好 我們改書面報告"},{"start":2219.622,"end":2232.095,"text":"第三案业务费用的媒体政策及业务宣传费台湾民众党团减列1327万2000元内政部表达意见"},{"start":2235.349,"end":2254.923,"text":"主席 各位委員 國土管理署副署長報告有關媒體政策及業務宣導費的部分本部國土管理署在114年度來辦理的時候都是依據政府採購法相關的規定來委託廠商辦理在今年的年底即將要完成撥款"},{"start":2255.783,"end":2277.037,"text":"那目前來講這些大家可能在黨團民眾黨立法院黨團裡面所提到就是說是不是都偏重於少數的這個媒體啊那實際上譬如說我們以電視的這些媒體的托播來講也包括東森非凡 台視 中視 華視 中天 三立 TVBS 民視等等"},{"start":2277.697,"end":2295.191,"text":"其實所有的這些相關的媒體我們都有脫波而不是集中在少數那這是第一點報告那第二點就是對於這個預算的執行比較這個執行率偏低的部分那因為我們在這個1.1.2.1.3年度的時候因為剛好是制度的轉變"},{"start":2295.931,"end":2323.518,"text":"原來為了方便民眾原來是一年只有七八月才能申請後來變成誰到誰辦所以這樣的一個狀況之下而且我們也是尊爵的一些開支所以才造成這些資訊率來偏低所以你希望怎麼樣所以最後的結論就是我們希望就是說是不是可以文字就是凍結這個百分之十那我們內政部國土管理署會在三個月內來提書面報告然後再使得凍結他們現在提出來台灣民眾黨團就是要"},{"start":2324.608,"end":2352.743,"text":"冻结346万然后三个月之内提出书面报告请台湾民众党团请表达意见先去把刚才也承认执行率太低了确实也不大需要所以我们还是坚持减列好我们本案列入二轮的时候我们再进行讨论好我们进入保留进入第四案又费用媒体政策宣传费减列20%冻结一样我们保留我们进入第五案第五案"},{"start":2353.737,"end":2369.463,"text":"捐助補助三千六十三萬改為主決議各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過柯總召你沒有跟我呼應啊好沒意見好謝謝我們第六案我們接洪亮其他業務費用48億改主決議各位黨團幹部有沒有意見"},{"start":2371.303,"end":2385.201,"text":"好 谢谢第七案我们青年安心成家购物优惠贷款等等我们冻结10%台湾民众党团所提出来的内政部有没有意见是 过渡管理署在"},{"start":2385.762,"end":2413.393,"text":"第二次報告那有關民眾黨團所提的這個案子因為目前來講我們這個案是配合政府的一個政策來推動那目前來講已經實施了這個部分已經核貸了13萬多戶那他的貸款的總金額是1兆565億那其中我們涉及到我們內政部的這個營建管理基金補助的部分有50億4500萬那這個部分其實都已經支應了那如果說這樣的一個"},{"start":2415.155,"end":2427.272,"text":"這個凍結的話會影響到我們這個民眾的一個權益所以我們是不是建議可以改成組決議然後順便報告這個提會以後再來動之 以上內政部提出來是改為組決議"},{"start":2429.198,"end":2454.992,"text":"改為書面報告請臺灣民眾黨團進來新星明明出現這麼多問題結果你收花完了就解決問題我們還是堅持先凍結趕快把那個報告送過來我們保留好本案保留我們進入第八案文字修正臺灣民眾黨團所提出來的第八案黨團員沒意見沒有意見我們修正通過好我們現在進入中央都市更新基金第九案"},{"start":2457.588,"end":2479.42,"text":"台湾民众党团所提出来改冻结10%改书面报告那个内政部请表达意见好吗没有意见可以接受好我们第9案修正通过冻结10%改书面报告第10案组决议国民党团林德福所提出来"},{"start":2482.292,"end":2498.485,"text":"沒有通過我們進入第11案台灣民眾黨團提議改凍結100萬元基金用途請內政部表達意見沒見接受好我們修正通過改凍結100萬元我們進入第12案"},{"start":2504.048,"end":2514.034,"text":"基金余额拜祖决议国民党团王玉明委员所提请各党团干部也没意见没意见没意见通过我们进入第13案"},{"start":2516.462,"end":2539.114,"text":"国土永续发展相关计划国民党团王一鸣所提出来我们改组决议各党有意见吗没有意见好通过第14案我们台湾民众党团所提出改冻结20%改书面报告内政部有没有宝贵意见没有意见接受好我们修正通过第15组决议"},{"start":2540.609,"end":2560.965,"text":"柯總召好沒意見我們通過好謝謝謝謝內政部列席的劉部長各位列席謝謝我們進入原住民委員會謝謝劉部長請回內政部請回謝謝"},{"start":2565.475,"end":2588.522,"text":"好好你对不起好好谢谢我们原住民委员会第16案国民党团黄人所提的改组决议各位党团干部也没意见没意见我们通过第17案国民党团郑天才委员所提出改组决议大家没意见没意见我们通过第18案国民党团黄人委所提测案我们测案"},{"start":2589.683,"end":2600.332,"text":"第19案黄仁委员所提改组决议大家有没有意见没意见通过20案郑天才委员所提改组决议有没有意见没意见谢谢通过21案测案"},{"start":2601.223,"end":2601.663,"text":"好 謝謝原住民委員會 謝謝"},{"start":2628.783,"end":2633.748,"text":"好 謝謝園民會 謝謝各位列席的官員 謝謝好 請回好 外交"},{"start":2663.322,"end":2684.019,"text":"好 谢谢我们继续协商110年度附属单位预算国防部部分首先介绍我们今天列席的顾部长到了吗顾部长 请坐主级局的谢局长好 谢谢 请坐退出冠军辅导委员会严主委好 请坐 谢谢蔡会计长好 谢谢"},{"start":2685.083,"end":2712.718,"text":"好 现在我们副署单位国防部所属共代协商部分共有两个案我们第一案台湾民众党团所提的主决议国防部主管部分大家有意见吗没意见好 我们通过第二案国民党团林德福委员所提的主决议大家有意见吗没意见通过第三案国军退出冠冕委员会台湾民众党团所提的主决议有意见吗没意见好 谢谢我们都通过了"},{"start":2714.211,"end":2740.407,"text":"好 謝謝國安部退伏會列席 謝謝請回我們進入經濟部經濟委員會非營業的含信託基金部分協商案我們今天介紹所有列席的國安委員組國家發展委員會葉主委"},{"start":2751.178,"end":2777.629,"text":"國家發展委員會葉主委到了嗎沒關係我們今天對不起今天練習官員比較多一點請各位黨團幹部耐心稍微等一下對我知道國家發展基金管理委員會的汪執行長到了嗎都還沒到好請坐請坐"},{"start":2779.953,"end":2809.194,"text":"農業部的祝賜長好謝謝您好請坐公民教育委員會的陳代理主委請坐國家發展委員會的葉主委好請坐好謝謝各位黨團幹部好的我們現在進入行政院主管發展機行政院國家發展機第一案國民黨團黃人所提策案好"},{"start":2809.653,"end":2831.955,"text":"我们进入第二案国民党团黄人所提改组决议大家有意见吗没意见通过第三案张其凯委员所提改组决议大家有意见吗没意见谢谢通过第四案民众党团黄国璋所提减列2000万请国家发展基金表达意见好"},{"start":2836.469,"end":2842.113,"text":"院長好 我是國發會主委葉俊賢我在這邊想要表達國發會的麻煩稍微大聲一點"},{"start":2845.226,"end":2874.108,"text":"好謝謝院長那我這邊的回應是國發基金已經在114年1月24號修正直接投資事業退場機制作業要點那第一個我們新增了事股遴選標的原則那第二個強化事股評估意見多元性來提升整體投資管理效能及退場的彈性那同時在114年的年初到10月底為止"},{"start":2874.788,"end":2887.265,"text":"已經完成一家投資事業全數事股以及四家投資事業部分事股所以在這邊是不是可以建起就是說勉與簡烈那改為主決議以上"},{"start":2890.902,"end":2913.844,"text":"第五案呢是一併討論嘛第五案凍結2000萬你一併發言好不好我們一起那第五案這個部分的話就是說國發基金目前已經實行進進措施然後從投資前的評估還有投資後的管理到退場各階段以建立相關機制那並且已經在開會通知中明確展明請委員親自出席管理委員會那第三就"},{"start":2915.085,"end":2937.631,"text":"調查所指的這些案件情形皆已經發函或要求派任董事請公司進行相關說明並提出改善措施那最後已經修訂的那個直接投資事業退場機制作業要點那也是一樣就是說建請委員是不是可以免於凍結那改為主決議以上好 請台灣民眾黨團針對第四案第五案表達"},{"start":2939.026,"end":2966.256,"text":"主委因為剛剛來了雖然說國發基金已經炒了我們監督了好久那可是事實上進度幾乎是零每次提出來都沒解決問題所以台灣民眾黨非常堅持就依照這個我們的這個這個提案好謝謝發言我們第四案第五案保留我們進入第六案改為張祺凱第四案第五案保留第六案張祺凱委員所提改組決議大家有意見嗎沒有意見通過第七案陳昌明委員所提"},{"start":2967.085,"end":2984.732,"text":"文字修正的主決議大家有意見嗎沒意見修正通過第八案經濟部所主管的作業基金第八案國民黨團黃人委員所提的改組決議沒意見通過第九案國民黨團黃人所提改組決議"},{"start":2986.472,"end":3010.488,"text":"没意见通过第十案国民党团黄人委员所提改组决议没意见通过第十一案国民党团黄人所提改组决议没意见通过第十二案张其凯委员组决议文字修正大家有意见吗没意见修正通过第十三案张其凯委员所提改组决议文字修正大家有意见吗没意见修正通过"},{"start":3012.744,"end":3037.544,"text":"很棒继续第十四案国民党团王玉明委员所提的改组决议大家有意见吗没意见好谢谢我们十四案通过第十五案陈超明委员所提的改组决议大家有意见吗没意见好谢谢通过第十六案张其凯委员所提减列两千万请经济部表达意见"},{"start":3038.628,"end":3057.385,"text":"跟院長報告那這一個案子早上已經也這個取得我們張其凱委員的同意已經改為科目的部分後面那個服務費專業服務費這幾個字刪除然後本年度預算97575改為678675"},{"start":3064.059,"end":3084.139,"text":"然後下面最後一段倒數最後一段的最後文字中服務費用之專業服務費這幾個字刪掉然後在2000萬元後面加科目自行調整 以上報告好 張七凱委員請表達意見"},{"start":3086.613,"end":3096.985,"text":"這問題非常嚴重現在是發生包括那個光電的轉售後力問題包括銀豹起的像嘉義這個製縫池上面光電廠之後他把轉賣去外包然後颱風來的時候"},{"start":3100.27,"end":3120.881,"text":"這個廢棄跟毀壞的這個光電板處理的速度非常非常慢那台灣很多地方包括屏東也出狀況台南所以我們非常堅持是要減淚這兩千萬那經過初步溝通我們同意把那個項目放大可是一定要做到好不好這不是只有減淚這兩千萬就剛講那些弊病的問題一定要徹底去解決好不好那個有沒有書妹的"},{"start":3128.782,"end":3146.752,"text":"經濟部可以要再次表達意見嗎他們是溝通好了但是應該拿書面出來文字要送上去就把項目科目放到對好謝謝我們第16案保留"},{"start":3147.95,"end":3164.13,"text":"第十七案国民党团陈超明委员所提改组决议各位党团干部有意见吗没意见好没意见通过谢谢接下来我们讨论核能发电后端营运基金刘苏斌委员所提改组决议大家有意见吗没意见通过"},{"start":3165.56,"end":3192.507,"text":"第十九案民眾黨團所提凍結三十一億四千一百二十九萬八千元請經濟部表達意見是因為這個後端基金這一塊服務費用這塊主要是用在廚藝的這個這個人力的人力的薪資的部分跟保險的薪資的部分那這部分其實在第一委員會的時候已經凍結了兩億那依照我們目前執行的狀況我們是不是建議該凍結五千萬以上"},{"start":3195.267,"end":3204.714,"text":"好謝謝發言張七開委員請表達意見經過初步溝通我們堅持還是繼續凍結好本案保留我們進入到第20案"},{"start":3208.892,"end":3236.967,"text":"對 沒關係 我們保留 等到二輪會再報告 報告院長 報告院長我們進入二十案 報告院長那個剛剛16案是不是可以按照張吉凱委員的修正的文字沒有 我們保留 他同意的好 保留沒關係 我們進入二輪我們到時候還會找時間再討論謝謝你市長 那我們二十案黃仁委員所提改組決議各位黨團幹部 沒意見好 謝謝二十一案黃仁委員所提改組決議各位黨團幹部 沒意見沒意見 好 謝謝"},{"start":3239.229,"end":3264.745,"text":"22案陈经威委员所提改组决议各位有没有意见没意见通过23案张其凯委员所提改组决议大家有没有意见没意见通过24案陈超明委员所提林务发展及赵林基金陈经威组决议24案大家有没有意见没意见通过25案陈经威委员所提改组决议大家有没有意见没意见通过26案"},{"start":3266.687,"end":3294.526,"text":"张奇凯委员所提改组决议没有意见通过继续我们进入农业天然灾害救助基金国民党团陈超明委员所提27案组决议文字修正大家没意见没有意见我们修正通过28案那个台湾民众党团张奇凯委员所提冻结100万"},{"start":3296.533,"end":3319.083,"text":"提書面報告 農業部請表達意見農業部謝謝提案委員及提案委員的黨團同意由我們完整說明並提書面報告那我們會遵照這個修正的文字來辦理陳部長沒來啊部長 對現在發言 我也沒接著次長是吧 部長沒來 次長好好好 謝謝謝謝謝謝杜次長 謝謝您"},{"start":3324.498,"end":3333.251,"text":"那個現在張委員 齊凱文請快速表達一件 謝謝沒有 已經協商過就照這樣可以了好 我們協商通過我們再"},{"start":3336.949,"end":3356.799,"text":"附送一遍我们第28案冻结100万提书面报告好不好 各位党的干部没有意见好 我们修正通过第29案张继凯团员署提改组决议没意见 通过"},{"start":3359.244,"end":3373.21,"text":"30案陳超明委員所提該主決議沒意見 沒意見通過31案陳金威委員所提該主決議各位也沒意見 沒意見通過我們進入農民退休基金"},{"start":3374.54,"end":3399.802,"text":"陈超明委员所提32案主决议有没有意见没意见通过第33案张其凯反托拉斯基金张其凯所提33组决议有没有意见没意见通过34张其凯所提的组决议有没有意见没意见通过好事件保留事件保留我们到时候我们再来谢谢我们进入财政委员会"},{"start":3400.694,"end":3425.294,"text":"好謝謝各位經濟部農業部列席的官員好謝謝我們進入財政委員會金融監督管理基金我們先介紹一下我們列席的金管會的彭主委歡迎行政院陳主席長"},{"start":3427.147,"end":3435.841,"text":"歡迎您 請坐好 我們進入金融監督管理基金我們第一案台灣民眾黨團增列3000萬元"},{"start":3439.767,"end":3463.144,"text":"罚款收入我们请彭主委表达意见我们遵照办理好遵照办理我们通过第二案谢一凤委员所提主决议各位有没有意见没意见通过再来我们进入保险业务发展基金谢一凤委员所提主决议各位党团干部有没有意见没意见通过好谢谢"},{"start":3464.125,"end":3473.548,"text":"好 謝謝我們彭主委 謝謝陳組長我們進入交通我們進入教育 教育 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":3506.57,"end":3531.77,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨團幹部我們進入教育及文化委員會首先我們要介紹教育部列席的閣員我們朱次長好 歡迎您運動部理部長運動部理部長運動部理部長"},{"start":3536.624,"end":3565.129,"text":"這個奧運金牌動作怎麼那麼慢他應該是飛毛腿才對啊運動部理部長塞車塞車院長抱歉塞車這個只有單一隧道塞車今天理部長第一次參加草野協商我們歡迎你請坐請坐文化部理部長好歡迎您"},{"start":3566.394,"end":3585.281,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會吳祖偉好 歡迎您好 各位黨團幹部我們進入教育部國立大學校務基金第一案理昆城委員所提主決有意見嗎沒意見沒意見沒意見第二案民眾黨團劉淑冰測案第三案民眾黨團簡列56萬請教育部請表達建議"},{"start":3591.571,"end":3605.239,"text":"已經改組決議了跟各位黨團沒有改組決議這個案子我們非常堅持這問題非常嚴重沒關係我們請教育部表達意見主席這個案子希望是不是能改組決議那兩個月內提書面報告好 謝謝請張祺凱文發言"},{"start":3609.946,"end":3623.573,"text":"抱歉這個案子非常嚴重他說台體大他是那個運動健康科的一個主任他恐嚇先生他把那個刀子他把那個刀子插在桌上"},{"start":3624.551,"end":3647.367,"text":"恐嚇學生在踹那個系辦的那個門跟那個牆然後要求學生 實習的學生把部分的錢還要充公弄到那個很多學生自己都轉學了好 謝謝我知道就不同意就對了本案保留好不好而且到現在都沒有解決喔好 我們第三案本案保留我們進入運動發展基金第四案民眾黨團增列20億7千萬元請運動部李部長表達意見"},{"start":3651.348,"end":3666.84,"text":"沒意見了你讓運動部講你已經入戲太深了李部長請建議修正文字增加收入10.5億元現在李部長的意思是說減判甄列21改為甄列11請民眾黨團發表意見"},{"start":3671.786,"end":3686.676,"text":"我們本來是很堅持的沒關係 你就講我們要訴訟來 同意不同意就保留好啦 可以我們同意李部長謝謝委員我們遵照李部長剛剛所提的我們增列十億三千五百萬減半各位黨團幹部有沒有意見"},{"start":3687.952,"end":3709.533,"text":"沒意見好第四案通過進入第五案民眾黨團改簡列九百萬元請運動部表達意見建議修正文字三簡為九百萬元簡列改簡列九百萬元接受不接受運動部的意見"},{"start":3711.107,"end":3720.287,"text":"接受好接受好我们第五项我们就简列九百万元好同国国会党的干部没意见没意见好简列九百万第六案"},{"start":3721.991,"end":3751.097,"text":"台湾民众党团所提李部长听清楚了冻结两千万请表达意见建议并入委员会初审结果办理冻结一千万元建议改组决议好那个张其凯民众党团请表达意见因为大家对李部长有很高的期待他很清新所以我们刚刚那边已经放已经放了一部分这边我们坚持两千好不好好本案第六案保留我们进入第七案国民党团这个一"},{"start":3752.321,"end":3758.426,"text":"服務費用一般付費凍結15%請運動部表達意見建議併入委員會初審結果辦理凍結1000萬元建議改組絕域提書面報告沒有1000萬吧395萬395減百分之凍結請國民黨團請表達意見"},{"start":3782.936,"end":3808.184,"text":"先保留好了我们第七案保留好我们谢谢运动部理事长谢谢你表现非常棒好我们进入文化部的文化机构作业基金第八劳务成本留书兵委员所提改组决议大家没意见没意见通过第九案黄恩委员提改组决议大家没意见没意见通过"},{"start":3809.383,"end":3813.209,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":3826.387,"end":3853.858,"text":"進入文化發展基金我們第十三案謝依奉委員所提凍結1%請文化部表達意見好遵照辦理好遵照辦理凍結1%我們進入第十四案謝謝文化部列席的官員謝謝我們進入科學園區管理局作業基金第十四案國民黨團陳金輝所提該組決議大家有沒有意見沒意見沒意見通過第十五案"},{"start":3854.298,"end":3879.727,"text":"曾经为委员所提改组决议大家没意见没意见通过好谢谢谢谢国客会谢谢文化部谢谢运动部谢谢好我们进入交通委员会没关系没关系"},{"start":3902.08,"end":3915.987,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨團幹部我們現在進入交通委員會首先介紹交通部五次長好 謝謝您國家通訊傳播委員會陳代理主委好 謝謝您"},{"start":3925.523,"end":3946.73,"text":"好 各位黨團幹部我們進入民航作業基金第一案 陳金威委員撤案好 我們第二案游昊委員所提改組決議各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見 通過進入國道公路建設管理基金我們第三案黃國昌委員所提凍結五百萬請交通部表達意見"},{"start":3948.175,"end":3954.045,"text":"報告院長 我們這個是不是建議改為病委員會決議辦理好 請民眾黨團表達意見"},{"start":3961.028,"end":3985.427,"text":"請民眾黨團表達意見並委員會意見繼續凍結啦好本案保留我們進入第四案黃仁委員改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過第五案李燕秀委員所提改組決議各位幹部有沒有意見沒有意見通過第六案謝依鳳委員所提凍結100萬請交通部表達意見交通部表達意見"},{"start":3986.554,"end":4005.198,"text":"我們遵照辦理好遵照辦理我們凍結100萬第7案陳金威委員所提改組決議各位幹部有沒有意見沒有意見我們改組決議好第8案黃仁委員所提改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過我們進入觀光發展基金"},{"start":4006.772,"end":4016.848,"text":"第九案陈金威委员所提改组决议各位没意见没有第十案黄仁委员所提改组决议大家没意见没有"},{"start":4017.79,"end":4043.411,"text":"好 第十一案謝依鳳委員所提凍結一百萬請交通部表達意見遵照辦理好 我們凍結第十一案凍結一百萬元第十二案黃榮委員所提改組決議各位幹部有沒有意見沒有好 通過我們進入第十三案航港建設基金國民黨團協議分委員所提凍結一百萬"},{"start":4045.851,"end":4068.965,"text":"交通部請表達意見我們證照辦理好我們凍結100萬各位黨團幹部也沒意見沒有好謝謝我們進入通信傳播委員管理基金第14案魯明哲委員簡列334,000元文匯審查保留案請NCC表達意見"},{"start":4070.779,"end":4096.988,"text":"跟主席報告因為這個項目因為我們還透支47萬我們建議就是不要簡略改組決議好請國民黨團表達意見你們早上早起精神好你趕快講話好本案第14案保留第15案林俊憲委員撤案"},{"start":4097.901,"end":4116.457,"text":"第十六案 魯明哲委員凍結十分之一 三百八十一萬五千請NCC表達意見是 因為這部分我們剩餘的部分其實不多凍結的部分已經超過我們剩餘的部分所以我們建議是免於凍結改組決議書面報告"},{"start":4119.13,"end":4138.051,"text":"民意與凍結改組決議書面報告請國民黨團表達意見本案保留好本案第16案保留第17案李昆哲委員撤案第18案林國成委員我們第18案到第26案各位黨團幹部我們是合併討論"},{"start":4140.014,"end":4159.163,"text":"第十八案到第26案合并讨论请各党团干部要注意一下第十八案林国成委员全数减列第十九案鲁明哲委员减列二分之一四百万五千元第二十案陈雪生翁晓琳委员减列七百五十万"},{"start":4160.043,"end":4179.374,"text":"第二十一案 黃建豪委員所提全數簡列第二十二案 陳雪生委員凍結十分之一改書面報告第二十三案 林沛翔委員所提簡列一百九十萬元凍結九十萬六千元"},{"start":4180.234,"end":4191.642,"text":"第24案黄建豪委员所提全数减列第25案邱若华委员所提减列二分之一冻结二分之一214万5000元"},{"start":4194.932,"end":4218.579,"text":"第二十六万黄建豪委员所提全数减列好请NCC表达意见是跟院长报告跟各位报告因为我们这个诉讼案跟法律案其实不仅仅是传播也还有电信打仗那相关的一些支出那我们会建议说就三减八十万二十万改动冻结外其他通案都是共减八十万"},{"start":4223.778,"end":4227.284,"text":"您是說22案-22案是凍結這個我沒有意見但是所有801萬你都是總共都是3-80萬那個各位黨團幹部他就總共這"},{"start":4239.879,"end":4266.918,"text":"18到26案就共三减八十万元请提案的由国民党团所提案请国民党团表达意见我们不同意好 我们保留18至26案我们就全部保留好 我们进入27案 28案29 30 31 32根据党团干部报告29案林沛祥委员所提全数减列"},{"start":4269.359,"end":4293.439,"text":"30案邱若驊委員所提凍結五分之一31案黃建豪委員所提全數檢列32案林沛翔委員所提全數檢列請NCC表達一些是 那我們這邊的媒體宣導費其實都是法定的一些事項像二少法4、6條還有IWIN的教育宣導"},{"start":4294.42,"end":4309.845,"text":"还有这个我们在交委会还有先前的在预算的附带决议就这个电磁波宣导跟112的宣导还有BWS的宣导还有摄影器材的宣导这些所以我们建议这边都是可以3减20万"},{"start":4311.172,"end":4329.786,"text":"好NCC意見統三20萬元國民黨團請表達意見我們不同意不同意好我們保留2933132保留我們進入33案林國成委員所提改組決議各位黨黨幹部有意見嗎沒意見通過第34案魯明哲委員所提簡列150萬凍結五分之一110萬7千元"},{"start":4336.653,"end":4364.807,"text":"我們34 36第40案也是合併討論第35案測案第36案林沛翔委員所提全數檢列37案邱若驊委員所提凍結十分之一五萬元38案林沛翔委員所提檢列兩百萬39案邱若驊委員所提凍結二分之一一百四十三萬一千元"},{"start":4366.604,"end":4390.534,"text":"第40案林沛翔委員所提到 減列90萬好 我們請NCC表達意見是 那這一塊的推展費也跟前面的宣導費是搭配的那我們有些是社民記財的宣導電視波的宣導 還有那個媒體的試讀還有iWIN的一些相關宣導那我們是建議說這邊就是3減10萬現在NCC啊"},{"start":4395.592,"end":4413.802,"text":"要求通山10萬國民黨團提案請表達意見本黨團不同意好我們全部保留我們進入第41案35萬撤案其餘保留我們進入41案租金"},{"start":4415.174,"end":4433.116,"text":"常在立席鲁明哲委员所提冻结十分之一十万五千元NC请表达意见是这一块主要是已经积累资金目前已经透支2.8万我们建议免于冻结改组决议提顺便报告41案改组决议国民党团请表达意见"},{"start":4435.08,"end":4450.047,"text":"不同意保留好 四十一案保留進入四十二案林佩祥委員檢列三百萬元凍結八百五十九萬八千元第四十三案撤案第四十四案"},{"start":4450.578,"end":4466.025,"text":"林國成委員所提改組決議第45案林國成委員所提改組決議第46案邱若驊委員檢列30萬元NCC主委現在就這幾案是併案來討論那第43次案44改組決議45改組決議剩下42跟46請問我們建議可以刪40萬"},{"start":4479.639,"end":4497.81,"text":"NCC主委表达42案跟46案两案共三40万元请国民党团提案以及台湾民众党团请表达意见不同意国民党团不同意本两案保留43案撤案好我们进入47案48案撤案"},{"start":4507.68,"end":4530.423,"text":"好第49案撤案第50案撤案第51案撤案我们进入第52案第52案53案第56案至第58案我们并案讨论其中第54 55已经撤案好跟各位报告一下"},{"start":4531.226,"end":4538.412,"text":"我們第52案林沛翔委員檢列120萬元凍結59萬6千元53案黃建豪委員所提凍結100萬元56案魯明哲委員所提凍結39萬7千元57案游皓委員所提凍結19萬9千元58案"},{"start":4556.524,"end":4582.002,"text":"陳雪生委員改凍結十分之一書面報告第六十案跟各位報告五十九案測案第六十案廖先祥委員所提凍結十分之一一千六百零二萬元好NCC委員主委請表達意見是那因為這邊主要涉及到是外包人力的一些薪水那我們是建議說不要刪減就建議"},{"start":4584.164,"end":4612.664,"text":"建議改組決議提書面報告好 各位黨團幹部NCC的意見從第52案到60案通通不要刪減請國民黨團提案不同意不同意 我們全部保留我們進入61案林俊憲委員改組決議大家有意見嗎沒意見 通過62案林佩祥委員所提全數簡列請NCC表達意見"},{"start":4613.497,"end":4625.57,"text":"我们建议这边不要减电,因为我们参与APEC的理导制度,我们的同仁担任一个小组的一个主席,需要一个秘书事务的一些协助,所以我们建议这边349万都维持。"},{"start":4628.513,"end":4643.024,"text":"好 我们进入63案邮号委员所提全数减列请NCC进入62 64我们一并讨论64案邱若华委员所提冻结174万元请NCC主委针对"},{"start":4643.564,"end":4672.214,"text":"这三个案子一并表达意见是这个349万是同仁参与国际EPIC里头的下面的一个相互认证的分组的主席那需要一个秘书团来支援他的一些主席的工作所以我们建议这边不要删减各党团干部62 63 64NCC主委建议不要删减请国民党团表达意见不同意保留65万测案"},{"start":4673.967,"end":4678.391,"text":"66案廖先祥委員所提67林國成委員所提"},{"start":4684.192,"end":4712.262,"text":"廖宣祥委員提檢列142萬林國成委員所提改組決議NCC主委請表達意見是 那因為有點減50萬了那我們建議其他項目就並同總共減50萬其他就不予再減了好 謝謝各黨團幹部NCC表達意見已經三減了50萬元了請問大家有沒有意見不同意保留好 我們66案保留67案改組決議"},{"start":4718.18,"end":4724.802,"text":"這個我們66案67案保留我們去改組67案改組決議好 更正 67案林國成委員改組決議 各位黨黨看不見 沒意見 沒意見好 通過 68案林國成委員簡列50萬NCC表達意見"},{"start":4745.812,"end":4768.43,"text":"這個有卡到66跟67我們66案我們是不同意的要保留 已經宣告了66案保留宣告了好 那個第67組決議沒意見吧67的林國聰主席林營也沒意見 有意見我們就一併保留更正只要不衝突掉先祥的提案 對"},{"start":4770.339,"end":4794.534,"text":"要先想提案我們保留堅持只是同意我們更正66案67案併案保留我們進入68案林國臣檢列50萬NC請表達意見是那這邊的話我們建議說已經檢列50萬我們建議不要再檢了我聽不太懂您的意思跟院長報告68案這邊林國臣委員這邊已經檢列50萬了所以我們這邊就是同意"},{"start":4800.04,"end":4810.745,"text":"就是林國臣委員已經提請50萬這個是NCC是同意的那其他部分希望不要再刪減那請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎沒有意見台灣民眾黨團請表達意見好嗎你們所提案委員"},{"start":4811.96,"end":4832.339,"text":"那個 六六 六八 六九 七十 七一齁對 這些都是一樣啊對對對 六八 六九 七十 七一 對所以那廖先祥 林沛祥都跟我們堅持啊所以 所以我們這個案子是要保留喔好 沒問題 我們七十一案測案六八 六九 七十 我們全部保留好"},{"start":4834.298,"end":4860.581,"text":"六八已经扣五十万我们进入第七十二案七十三案七十五案七十七案七十八案也是合并讨论我们全部保留七十四案报告一下已经测案了七十九案测案了七十六案测案那其余的我们就保留我们进入八十案测案我们现在进入八十一案"},{"start":4863.132,"end":4866.153,"text":"網際網路傳播計畫林沛翔委員所提檢列160萬我們82案測案"},{"start":4881.558,"end":4903.932,"text":"然后83案81案我们并案84案测案85 86好所以根据这个81 83 85 86请并案请表达您的意见好吗林备祥委员所提林国成委员所提还有林备祥委员所提请表达意见谢谢"},{"start":4905.033,"end":4925.046,"text":"因為這個大項目大概只剩下88萬預計剩下88萬那目前如果說照這個委員的提案部分恐怕會不足以來處理所以我們建議說變成85案的方式來處理就是不要再簡列了然後提書面報告"},{"start":4926.386,"end":4948.995,"text":"謝謝我們請國民黨團提案的黨團請表達意見不同意我們保留 88案都保留我們現在進入87案到88測案 89測案 90我們併案討論林國成委員87案題簡列20萬第90案林沛翔委員簡列160萬凍結812000元請NCC表達意見"},{"start":4953.817,"end":4966.549,"text":"是 那这个法律事务处的费用有很多是那个专家协议资讯相关的一些处理那87案里头丁国城委员已经减利20万我们建议这个就不要再减然后其他都并案处理谢谢"},{"start":4968.359,"end":4996.713,"text":"你包括第90案你也一併在裡面嗎就是希望減20萬是好的那請提案的國民黨團表達意見不同意不同意我們87 90我們保留88 89測案好我們進入91案測案林俊憲委員所提92案邱若驊委員所提主決議大家有意見嗎沒有沒有意見好我們通過各位黨黨幹部我們進入有限廣播電視事業發展基金"},{"start":4998.39,"end":5010.567,"text":"第93案徐富奎委員所提策案第94案林國成委員所提改組決議大家有意見嗎 沒意見 通過第95案廖先祥委員所提簡列600萬元"},{"start":5015.04,"end":5040.633,"text":"95 96 97并案讨论96林佩祥委员所提减列4800万元冻结2366万6000元第97案刘书斌委员所提冻结800万元第99案测案100案林国成委员所提改组决议101案"},{"start":5042.797,"end":5059.571,"text":"等一下病案要回头讨论林国城委员100案改组决议第102案陈雪生委员所提改冻结十分之一书面报告第103案林国城委员所提减列100万第104案"},{"start":5061.953,"end":5066.294,"text":"陳雪生委員所提減列300萬凍結3864萬第105萬測案第106案魯明哲委員所提凍結五分之一955萬8千元全部併案討論請NCC主委表達意見是那因為103案已經減100萬我們建議就是全部都是減103萬其他的就配合辦理"},{"start":5087.898,"end":5103.199,"text":"好 各位黨團幹部NCC主委表達意見這起案從95到106案除了測案之外99105測案之外能夠共同3.1百萬元請表達意見 不同意好 我們黨團有意見不同意我們全部保留"},{"start":5105.54,"end":5129.995,"text":"我們進入107案 林國成委員改組決議 大家有意見嗎沒有沒有意見 通過108案 林國成委員所提改組決議 有意見嗎沒有意見沒有意見 通過109案 林沛翔委員所提檢列100萬NCC請表達意見是 那個對於109案來看的話我們都年底只剩餘4.8萬而已所以沒有辦法再檢所以我們建議免於檢列改組決議提出面報告"},{"start":5130.615,"end":5158.146,"text":"请国民党团表达意见不同意不同意109案保留我们进入110案该主决议没有意见有没有意见没有意见我们通过111案李坤哲委员所提主决议大家有意见吗没有意见好通过112案陈素月委员所提主决议有意见吗没有意见通过113案邱若华委员主决议有意见吗没有意见通过114案邱若华委员所提主决议有意见吗没有"},{"start":5158.166,"end":5184.239,"text":"没有意见通过115案鲁明哲委员所提主决议有意见吗没有意见通过116案鲁明哲委员所提改组决议没有意见通过117案黄建豪委员所提主决议有意见吗没有意见通过好谢谢谢谢NCC我们现在进入司法及法制谢谢交通委员会列席所有的官员谢谢"},{"start":5193.752,"end":5221.312,"text":"好 谢谢各位党团干部我们现在进入司法及法治委员会审查我们要协商的主题首先是法务部主管的收支部分我们请列席的法务部正部长好 欢迎您好 矫正署的林署长好 欢迎您我们进入法务部矫正机关作业基金"},{"start":5224.822,"end":5246.592,"text":"翁小玲委員所提凍結一千萬元請法務部表達意見同意同意好法務部同意凍結翁小玲委員所提一千萬元各位黨團幹部有意見嗎有意見我們通過凍結一千萬通過第二案台灣民眾黨團所提凍結一百萬元同意"},{"start":5248.769,"end":5264.759,"text":"同上同上法務部請表達意見同意好 同意好 我們凍結100萬元業務總支出第三項黃任委員所提改組決議沒有意見沒有意見 通過我們進入毒品防治基金"},{"start":5265.851,"end":5282.937,"text":"我們進入第四案台灣民眾黨團所提改組決議各位有意見嗎沒有意見通過第五案台灣民眾黨團所提凍結300萬元請法務部表達意見是不是可以改那個凍那個醫療社福毒品防治計畫"},{"start":5285.349,"end":5300.923,"text":"什麼意思現在它是凍結300萬元是不是改那個科目就是醫療社福毒品的防治激發上一項的那就是科目自行調整"},{"start":5302.14,"end":5325.7,"text":"是这个意思那个提案的台湾民众党团法务部政部长表达意见请台湾民众党团表达意见因为那个毒品特别是那个丧尸烟弹这个很严重这个我们再列入考虑好不好我们再讨论一下你已经读写300万了今天先保留好不好再讨论端子凯你读写300万你已经读写300万了对啊不是啦他把科目放大啦"},{"start":5326.826,"end":5337.09,"text":"沒關係 我們再討論一下好不好這個我們要一點時間討論好不好這應該很單純這還要時間嗎這已經很單純了不是 已經要處理了你要什麼時候討論啦最近就會討論了沒問題好不好我們贏了會討論先保留 先保留韓院長都說這比較單純了這很單純啦好這個是因為最主要是我可以"},{"start":5354.499,"end":5375.836,"text":"沒問題啦沒有關係我們就第五案保留尊重提案黨團的意見我們進入第六案台灣民眾黨團改組決議沒有意見好謝謝法務部列席的鄭部長各位列席官員謝謝好請回我們進入未還"},{"start":5386.752,"end":5415.42,"text":"好各位黨團幹部我們進入衛環委員會首先介紹勞動部陳次長好謝謝衛福部林次長好你慢慢來你腳不舒服慢慢來環境部沈次長歡迎好我們勞工保險局作業基金第一案國民黨團黃人委員所提改組決議大家意見嗎沒有意見通過第二案黃人委員所提組決議"},{"start":5417.605,"end":5438.634,"text":"柯总召怎么精神这么差留意点没有好各位导演刚刚没有意见没有意见好通过我们进入就业安定基金黄人委员所提改组决议大家有意见吗没有没有意见通过第四案黄人委员所提改组决议大家有意见吗没有没有意见通过"},{"start":5440.407,"end":5464.825,"text":"第五案,台灣民眾黨團林國成委員所提改組決議,大家有意見嗎?沒有。沒有意見,通過。第六案,李燕秀委員所提改組決議,有意見嗎?沒有。沒有意見,通過。第七案,台灣民眾黨團所提動結兩千萬元,請勞動部表達意見。院長、各位委員,有關於這個動結一般行政管理的部分,是我們開門所需要的,"},{"start":5465.325,"end":5482.575,"text":"現在的油資水電租金清潔保全等等數目所需要的費用是開門所需那現在已經12月11號所以我們其實動資數已經沒有辦法再符合這樣一個三凍凍結2000萬的情況我們是建議凍結並委員會凍結促進國民就業計畫2000萬就改動其他的業務計畫"},{"start":5495.643,"end":5509.956,"text":"主席 那個台灣民眾黨團請表達意見好 主席 明目也可以更動但是我們堅持要這個許明書濫用這個納稅的錢要討回所以凍結樹木我們不敢那如果凍結的這個科目必須"},{"start":5511.844,"end":5535.078,"text":"改變到 我們第七案保留好 我們進入第八案醫療 報告院長報告院長 那個他們是同意改動促進國民就業兩千萬那至於該追的部分我們會依法來追回我們會追蹤 我們要求討回這個錢我們會依法來追回 可以啦院長可以啦 文字改變你同意改動促進國民就業計畫兩千萬"},{"start":5539.946,"end":5551.839,"text":"他是改動國民促進國民就業計畫的兩千萬不是改動科目 陳委員不是改動科目改動科目啦 換計畫那個促進國民就業計畫他改動那個"},{"start":5558.737,"end":5582.081,"text":"他改到上面第四行那個促進國民就業計畫這個不能這樣調的我們到時候二輪再來調的沒關係 我們並沒有刪除好不好好 第七案我們先保留好 活動部先保留再討論我們進入第八案黃森委員所提改組決議沒有意見他現在沒意見沒有意見好 改組決議第九案謝依鳳委員改凍結100萬我們衛福"},{"start":5586.361,"end":5593.374,"text":"衛福部請表達意見沒有意見吧衛福部請表達意見"},{"start":5600.495,"end":5618.307,"text":"報告院長跟委員因為我們那個各部立議院的護病比在今年8月以後都已經達成了好 那是不是現一份那我們當然還是會持續督導所以是不是現一份委員這個案子可以跟黃仁委員的主決議一樣我們持續督導好不好好 衛福部表達意見是希望改主決議請國民黨團表達意見"},{"start":5620.878,"end":5646.829,"text":"國民黨團請表達意見八月之後就全部答清了好 我們第九案保留我們進入第十案李燕秀委員提改組決議大家有意見嗎沒意見 通過謝謝第十一案黃仁委員所提改組決議各位有意見嗎沒有意見 謝謝好 我們通過我們進入第十二案李燕秀委員所提改組決議大家有意見嗎沒意見 通過謝謝第十三案台灣民眾黨團所提"},{"start":5648.388,"end":5659.919,"text":"食品安全保護基金凍結20%請衛福部表達意見報告院長跟各位委員因為這個其實多數都是補助地方政府所以是不是可以請委員不然簡列200萬好不好"},{"start":5662.689,"end":5686.818,"text":"衛福部的意見就是直接減列200萬元請提案的台灣民眾黨團表達意見好 本黨同意好 謝謝委員台灣民眾黨團所提議本案第13案減列200萬元通過好 謝謝進入第14案李彥秀委員所提改組決議有意見嗎 沒意見謝謝委員第15案林德福委員所提改組決議大家有意見嗎沒有意見通過"},{"start":5687.578,"end":5706.165,"text":"第十六案林德福委員所提疫苗基金主決議大家有意見嗎沒有意見通過第十七案林德福委員所提文字修正淹害防治及衛生保健基金的主決議大家有意見嗎沒有意見我們修正通過好我們進入環境部"},{"start":5707.675,"end":5731.729,"text":"環境保護基金謝謝勞動部跟衛福部的列席我們資源回收第18案台灣民眾黨團凍結15%請環境部表達意見環境部環境部報告請表達意見是我們建議能改改併委員會決議凍結500萬"},{"start":5735.621,"end":5747.872,"text":"臺灣民眾黨團現在勞動部的意思是凍結事務調整為直接檢列500萬元 請表達意見本黨同意 併案凍結凍結凍結500萬 同意嗎好 謝謝我們臺灣民眾黨團同意接受衛福部所提凍結500萬元環境部"},{"start":5758.809,"end":5768.864,"text":"第18案是凍結500萬元各黨團幹部有意見嗎沒有意見好 沒有意見我們通過第19案謝依鳳委員所提凍結100萬元各位黨團幹部有意見嗎"},{"start":5771.943,"end":5789.516,"text":"沒有意見 對不起環境部有說明環境部請說明是 這個案子其實我們已經執行完畢了就是說我們建議能夠併上面那個決議資源回收基金管理計畫500萬的部分科目自行調整"},{"start":5791.497,"end":5818.6,"text":"你并在一起就好了啊对并在一起并在一起也就是说18案19案共同冻结500万元那请国民党团体表达意见同意同意好同意我们18案19案冻结500万元好我们通过20案林德福委员所提主决议大家有意见吗没有意见通过21案林德福委员所提主决议有意见吗没意见好通过谢谢好"},{"start":5821.487,"end":5832.147,"text":"我们社福纪委环委会共计21案除第7案第9案保留之外其余均照协商结果通过好谢谢各位环境部所列席的官员"},{"start":5833.598,"end":5855.471,"text":"我們這一次110年度總預算附屬單位預算第一輪協商到此為止第二 我們針對保留的部分會進行二輪的協商協商的日期會在則期告知我們現在休息十分鐘之後進入第二題選罷法的協商請幕僚人員準備休息十分鐘"},{"start":5879.788,"end":5891.972,"text":"這份委員他對我們部立醫院的那個護病筆啦這邊部立醫院護病筆我們其實去年是真的沒有達標啦去年只有一半達標今年八月護病筆就全部都達標了"},{"start":5894.413,"end":5917.03,"text":"所以我們是說是不是可以向黃人委員的主決議就是我們還是持續去就是寫一份對 寫一份委員的啦那能不能讓我們用向黃人委員這個案子我們持續還是確保他能夠繼續達成目的地因為今年八月之後全部都答應了有有有 溝通還沒答應好啦對啊 想說不然只剩一案了啦好啦 好啦"},{"start":5921.193,"end":5921.574,"text":"謝謝 再去跟誰講"},{"start":5947.841,"end":5955.981,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5985.753,"end":5990.716,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":6005.765,"end":6005.805,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":6064.869,"end":6087.958,"text":"這個世界在接軌的時候,阿伯上來陪你,那整個就整理過了,那個七十年來就不一樣了,兩十年來就不一樣了,那個時候還沒有項目的,你還要先退役的時候,那個時候還沒有項目的,你還要先退役的時候,那個時候還沒有項目的,你還要先退役的時候,"},{"start":6093.097,"end":6120.038,"text":"謝謝您的收看"},{"start":6140.282,"end":6161.619,"text":"也許新增一萬人,其他都有,那如果反過來,你們另外同一個人還是同一個人,這個人,這個他,排在這個圓壇的角落,金融機構是一個公司,那他不可能是一個公司,他不可能是一個公司。"},{"start":6176.803,"end":6188.092,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":6194.206,"end":6206.237,"text":"中文字幕——YK"},{"start":6217.738,"end":6225.342,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":6241.662,"end":6253.57,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":6267.5,"end":6289.838,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6315.691,"end":6315.711,"text":"好"},{"start":6338.314,"end":6340.116,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6356.872,"end":6360.334,"text":"你現在怎麼樣 兩邊這樣 兩邊會服務學會很辛苦嗎還好啦 反正剩一個半月"},{"start":6367.897,"end":6373.522,"text":"從一個先生啊 尹正文沒輸那時候我臉是擋在兩邊臉那時候大壩沒輸 兩個扯在一起"},{"start":6387.512,"end":6388.272,"text":"洗三次臉 洗三次臉"},{"start":6414.718,"end":6422.57,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":6442.674,"end":6442.954,"text":"开始吧"},{"start":6464.254,"end":6490.548,"text":"好 谢谢各党团干部请坐谢谢大家谢谢我们今天列席的官员我们现在协商主题本院郑天才等19位委员凝聚公职人员选罢法第17条条文修正草案郑天才等16位委员凝聚公职人员选举罢免法第57条条文修正草案高金树梅委员等23位凝聚公职人员选罢法第70条71条及72条"},{"start":6492.95,"end":6520.466,"text":"73条条文修正草案卢献一委员等17位凝聚公职人员选举罢免法部分条文修正草案武力华委员等17位凝聚公职人员选举罢免法第71条及73条条文修正草案及高金树梅委员等18位凝聚公职人员选举罢免法第70条之一条文修正草案"},{"start":6521.465,"end":6539.038,"text":"等六案二本次協商前三案是於一百三年七月十二日本院第十一屆第一會期第二十二次會議作成決議盡附二讀並於本年三月六日由高金素美委員主持過一次黨團協商無法達成共識"},{"start":6541.94,"end":6560.594,"text":"后三案包括卢宪一等17位委员邻居公职人员选举罢免法部分条文修正草案于114年5月16日本院自第11届三会期第12次会议决议自委员会抽出进复二读与相关提案并案协商"},{"start":6561.929,"end":6568.941,"text":"吳立華委員等17位凝聚公職人員選罷法第71條及73條條文修正草案於114年12月2日本院第11屆第4會期"},{"start":6577.338,"end":6604.653,"text":"第十一次会议决议自委员会抽出进复二读并与相关提案并案协商高金 宿美等18位委员凝聚公职人员选举罢免法第70条之一条为修正草案于114年12月5日本院第十一届第四会期第十二次会议决议进复二读与相关提案并案协商因此已安排于本次会议就这六案进行党团协商"},{"start":6606.809,"end":6627.46,"text":"三我们现在要介绍今天列席的相关行政主管机关首先我们欢迎内政部刘部长中选会的吴代理主委原住民委员会股仲副主委司法院林厅长欢迎您法务部杨检察官"},{"start":6628.715,"end":6648.309,"text":"歡迎行政院主計總署公務預算王專門委員好謝謝我們首先請提案的國民黨團表達意見好嗎請如果高精素美委員您也是提案委員您可以直接表達好謝謝大家首先謝謝院長這件這個選罷法"},{"start":6654.367,"end":6674.416,"text":"70、71、73以及增列70條之一其實在很早以前原住民的選舉制度就被不公平對待我首先要想憲法徵修條文第4條是保障原住民族的參政權要確保原住民在選舉制度當中我們是擁有額外的代表權"},{"start":6675.396,"end":6703.362,"text":"但是在96年我們在修法的時候因為當時大家的疏忽這導致了原住民的選區需要缺少兩席才能夠補選而一般選區只要出缺一席他就要立即補選所以很顯然在制度上面是對原住民有歧視的所以因此我才會提出這個修法而這個修法的制度"},{"start":6704.622,"end":6720.329,"text":"在上一次的時候大家在大罷免的時候有被某些委員誤會是針對某些人而我必須要說大罷免已經結束了所以今天我非常謝謝主席能夠"},{"start":6721.149,"end":6747.802,"text":"召開這個協商然後把原住民選舉的制度跟一般選舉不分區分區的委員的制度是一樣的公平對待那麼我的這個70 71 73以及增列70條之一主要的是說在立委出缺的時候我是主張要補選而不是力補這很重要第一"},{"start":6749.088,"end":6767.962,"text":"所有的分區立委都是補選而沒有所謂的地補原住民為什麼要用地補我們為什麼要被不一樣對待然後我看到今天民進黨團的修正條文第73條以及第71條他們是說"},{"start":6775.785,"end":6801.361,"text":"原住民只要有會選的情勢就不可以來補選我非常的訝異我不知道今天吳立華委員或者是民進黨的陳寅委員或者是原民會的股中副主委當你們看到這樣的提案的時候你們心裡面怎麼樣的感覺坦白說我是非常的憤怒所有的立法委員難道只有原住民才會會選嗎"},{"start":6803.667,"end":6823.602,"text":"為什麼在所有的選辦法裡面一般的立委的補選就不需要特別講到這一點而在原住民的補選就非要提到這一點我對民進黨團感到非常的失望跟憤怒然後另外我要再講為什麼不要遞補的原因"},{"start":6824.71,"end":6845.368,"text":"要補選 我認為補選是把決定權還給人民而所謂的地補只是照名單的算數往下排那我認為現在的選民他應該是要有一個重新的表態誰要來代表我們這個下一屆的立法委員"},{"start":6846.741,"end":6868.812,"text":"然後補選是政府跟政黨的其中成績單然後透過一次的投票人民可以清楚的表達對執政的成績或者是這個政黨表現滿不滿意然後逼迫政治人物必須要做出調整而不是安穩的來做滿第三補選產生的代表當然是比較有正當性補選當選者則是經過公開競爭跟投票的授權"},{"start":6874.094,"end":6894.71,"text":"我認為這樣子講話更有底氣也更接近人民然後我更認為補選是可以減少人頭候選人跟黑箱的算計避免政黨有誘因放人頭完排名改採補選政黨提名就得更負責任"},{"start":6895.33,"end":6917.165,"text":"第五對原住民來說補選是一次重新發生的機會不是被動接受上面說誰來而是能集體討論親自決定要選哪一種聲音站在國會的前排所以我認為補選是程序的問題而是賦予族人權利再一次告訴大家誰才是真正有資格的人"},{"start":6917.845,"end":6944.608,"text":"我再一次要呼吁请不要剥夺族人最基本的权利再重申一次一般的立法委员都是用补选为什么原住民要特别要用递补如果大家用了递补那么麻烦大家就一致的规范以上 谢谢好 谢谢高金树美委员发言郑天才委员你是提案委员你要不要表达意见不在即投票这个"},{"start":6946.148,"end":6960.187,"text":"第一 这个宪法征修条文定得非常明确这个原住民的立法委员多少的席次既然有出车了就应该要补险这是第一个"},{"start":6960.953,"end":6988.738,"text":"第二這個就是我提的部分另外的就是有針對不再舉投票的部分因為原住民的立法委員選期是前台灣在實施不再舉投票上對這個選務工作完全沒有這個影響所以這個部分是一個比較容易先行實施的部分第二個就是有關秘密投票的部分"},{"start":6989.904,"end":6997.274,"text":"之所以會提秘密投票要去特別強調的就是因為我們很多原住民的這個險民"},{"start":6998.454,"end":7025.166,"text":"譬如說在台北市某個選區是只有一個選民或是兩個選民在這樣的一個情形之下能夠移轉投票的話就不會產生我們投票就知道他是投給誰這樣會影響整個秘密投票的一個情形所以提出這樣的一個修正的條文以上"},{"start":7027.049,"end":7038.923,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員 鍾嘉斌委員您要發言請吳立華委員請準備 還是您先發言吳立華委員原名的 沒關係吳立華委員您先發言鍾嘉斌委員請準備 我剛剛看你舉手了"},{"start":7042.115,"end":7066.876,"text":"謝謝主席在這邊要很感謝韓院長召集本次的協商來回應原住民族立法委員如果遇到出缺的時候必須要超過二分之一才能夠進行補選的這樣的一個窘境多少年來這個問題都沒有被解決我上一屆進到立法院"},{"start":7067.796,"end":7085.366,"text":"我也有質詢也有提案但是很可惜都沒有被重視處理那我也回應確實遇到這個罷免的問題那這個問題再一次的被凸顯那我非常的高興我們現在可以來處理這個問題"},{"start":7087.507,"end":7101.647,"text":"我在這邊大概針對我的提案版本做幾個簡單的說明在71條的地方就是在就職前因為要分就職前跟就職後"},{"start":7102.808,"end":7117.291,"text":"所以在就職前如果當選人死亡或者是進判決當選無效確定都是一律補選只是說我們還是非常在意"},{"start":7117.972,"end":7132.797,"text":"就是我們當選人或補選人他的一個資格問題因為畢竟選賢與能所以有一些特例的部分像有罪判決確定的我們才會有所謂的遞補"},{"start":7134.558,"end":7160.623,"text":"這是在第71條的部分那在第73條呢是去處理就職後那就職後的話一樣就是如果在就職後死亡辭職或其他的事由當然三個月內就來進行補選但是如果是就職後因為我們地方的選舉都很清楚的知道"},{"start":7162.209,"end":7178.045,"text":"議員的部分或代表的部分因為我們是複數選區所以複數選區它就會有這樣的一個地步的情形所以它會有幾個條件像是民事當選無效"},{"start":7178.806,"end":7192.381,"text":"那最低當選人得票數也要過他的二分之一以確保他的一個民意基礎那或者是說沒有那些跟選罷法刑法有罪判決的這樣的話"},{"start":7193.883,"end":7209.626,"text":"那就可以去做一個地補那這個部分其實是比照我們議員就是在第74條的部分可是有一個部分我就沒有納入因為畢竟我們的人"},{"start":7210.487,"end":7236.797,"text":"多席次也不多所以在這個部分如果是在第74條的第4款我就覺得比較不適用那我大概在這邊就是先針對修法的版本做這樣的意見表示 謝謝謝謝吳立華委員 鍾采斌委員請發言國民黨團請準備首先我們對於原住民族的參政權我們是比照一般選舉的通則來進行"},{"start":7239.997,"end":7255.3,"text":"那首先原住民族的代表他在民意機關的選舉是跟目前的情況是大致一樣在我們中華民國民意機關的代表選舉基本上是複數選區為原則單一選區為地外舉例來講我們從鄉鎮市民代表到縣市議員都是複數選區"},{"start":7264.022,"end":7278.243,"text":"但是在特殊的情況比如說屏東縣的原住民鄉他是一鄉選一個縣議員所以就會產生跟立法委員的情況類似在目前我們的立法委員是單一選區所以初學級補選"},{"start":7279.665,"end":7293.036,"text":"同樣的在單一選區的原住民的縣議員也是初階級補選那我們現在思考一下目前原住民的立法院遇到問題是他是中華民國立法院當中別人都是單一選區他是複數選區是三個"},{"start":7294.938,"end":7309.175,"text":"因此呢出缺後依照複數選區沒辦法造成補選的一個條件所以呢有修法的方向是希望說啊既然其他的立委單一選區出缺及補選那原住民立委是不是出缺也即補選"},{"start":7310.296,"end":7339.596,"text":"但是要回歸到來思考既然是複數選區本來在其他的民意代表的複數選區就分別有補選跟遞補的規定那麼因此呢比較完整的修法應該是讓原住民的立委比照其他的民意代表的複數選區可以有出缺補選跟遞補的方式那因此呢在選法法當中明文的表達在其他的民意代表的複數選區缺額達兩二分之一以上者就要進行補選"},{"start":7340.476,"end":7367.81,"text":"但是如果缺額未達二分之以上者在一定條件之下他可以採用遞補那什麼情況呢其實在目前待會可以請內政部說明一下在目前的基層地方民意代表的複數選區如果當選者他或者人在當選前或當選後有賄選或其他的原因被取消資格或者宣告當選無效在那一次的選舉的複數選區的其他的候選人在一定的條件下是可以遞補的"},{"start":7368.89,"end":7393.398,"text":"這樣子才能造成我們選舉的經濟所以今天吳委員的提案它的修好方向是讓原住民的複數選區的民意代表選舉能夠跟等同其他民意代表的複數選區在一定條件下可以進行缺額的補選在一定條件下也可以產生地補這樣才會更為完備至於高金委員所提到的說原住民會選就不能補選其實目前"},{"start":7394.618,"end":7423.429,"text":"目前一般平地的縣市議員或者是代表的選舉只要是附屬選區的那麼他會規定如果說是因為賄選而被取消當選資格的地補者本身也因為為了預防他也是有同樣的賄選的情況地補上又被取消資格所以最新的選罷法內政部可以說明一下是否說都為了避免這種情況重複地補產生所以我們在地補者的一些資格條件上我們另外限制請內政部完整說明"},{"start":7423.905,"end":7442.525,"text":"好 谢谢钟家明王汉请国民党人发言您稍待一下 请罗志强委员 罗书记长请相同事项 相同对待不同事项 不同对待我觉得刚刚嘉宾兄法理分析我觉得讲得很好但是我觉得有一个重点是搞错了就是立法委员"},{"start":7443.564,"end":7470.227,"text":"今天讨论的是原住民的立法委员不是各县市的议员是原住民的立法委员所以当你看到原住民立法委员的时候你就要很严肃的去看待这个原住民的权益保障的问题那立法委员出缺应该要补选这件事情或是民进党所主张的递补不管总而言之第一件事情有共识"},{"start":7471.623,"end":7492.348,"text":"原住民平原跟山原就是各三席你三席變兩席說真的我覺得影響衝擊是很大的所以因此一定要不管說我們先中立是補選還是地補我們先保持中立一定要補上去可是第二個就是說因為我們在立委選舉裡面的話缺額對不對是補選嘛"},{"start":7496.289,"end":7518.424,"text":"所以換言之你要從立委的角度來看不是從複數選區的議員的角度去看這件事情所以我不能拿複數選區的規範議員的規範來去看中央的立委選舉的規範所以你要比照的選舉方式應該是比照立法委員所以我覺得嘉賓兄這個法理分析得很好啦但是我還是覺得說要回到說立委"},{"start":7519.318,"end":7533.205,"text":"立委这个中央立委应该以中央的立委来比的谢谢以上好谢谢罗志祥书记长发言台湾民众党团请发言高经纬您稍待一下我们还要请内政部讲完您再讲好不好那个嘉宾可能误会了"},{"start":7534.145,"end":7546.958,"text":"現在討論立委不是一言啦不要有雙標也不要歧視那個原住民的立委他民眾黨明確的支持這個原住民的立委只要切額只要是一人要立即進行補選這個是"},{"start":7549.82,"end":7577.982,"text":"跟其他委員是一樣 今天談的就是立委另外台灣民眾黨也支持原住民不在籍投票更重要的我們認為所有的民眾都要可以推動一起的不在籍的投票台灣民眾黨已經提了修正案出來了我們一直在提醒我們是科技大國也是民主國家結果現在我們發現連那個外勞在台灣的外勞印尼跟菲律賓都不在籍在投票了"},{"start":7579.452,"end":7591.349,"text":"台灣真的很丟臉像今年2025年南韓南韓進行那個總統大選他們官方統計有海外有25萬人完成登記其中超過20萬人實際去投票 投票率"},{"start":7593.181,"end":7616.686,"text":"7乘7.95創下歷史紀錄南韓可以 菲律賓 印尼都在投了我們到現在還不能這個不在即投票那所以台灣民眾黨是支持原住民這個不在即投票那我們要求同時來進行好不好把所有這個各黨派已經提出的不在即投票 那我特別強調請民進黨不要太擔心 民進黨都要擔心說好像變成"},{"start":7617.706,"end":7636.469,"text":"要抹紅或者是什麼境外勢力進來台灣民眾黨的提案非常清楚我們先進行國內的移轉投票只極限於台澎金馬所以沒有你們講的這個不要抹紅沒有外面的就是國內的移轉投票那我們的對象跟這個方法也非常清楚這包括哪一些呢"},{"start":7638.854,"end":7653.292,"text":"包括這個軍人警消執法的公務人員 險務人員沒有被褫奪公權的受刑人他們因為工作啊 就學他就有時候是沒辦法投票嘛 對不對那你就請他們先照冊照冊 然後呢"},{"start":7654.478,"end":7674.067,"text":"你到時候 你說你是北漂啦或者是你學生要回去不方便你剛剛講的金錦霄他們都有工作嘛那你就設立一個移轉的投票所那時候他們去投票就可以了嘛這非常方便尤其我們的科技已經這麼進步了所以我們今天支持剛剛講的支持原住民可是同時我們希望這個國內的移轉投票盡快來實施請民進黨"},{"start":7675.228,"end":7702.807,"text":"今天那個柯總召慈眉善目啊我覺得今天我們同時來支持顏柱銘同時也支持我們的不在籍投票趕快來完成好不好很快很快如果快的話明年底這個縣市長選舉就可以推動國內的這個移轉投票啦慢的話應該在2028年總統大選也可以做啊好不好不要讓國際上笑啦國際都說我們民主典換科技大國結果到現在連一個不在籍投票都推動不了國際媒體都在笑我們加油謝謝"},{"start":7703.807,"end":7732.93,"text":"現在還有兩位原名的委員要發言但是我想先請內政部說明之後再請兩位原名委員發言好嗎好 我們請吳次長請謝謝主席中選會準備那個我先確定一下是先就剛剛那個是全部包括1743還是先就74條來做說明一下因為剛剛中委員有談到74條的部分現在廣泛討論你先可以就你所表達也沒問題等一下回頭還會二人發言"},{"start":7733.53,"end":7746.337,"text":"好謝謝好那我想主席各位委員我想先簡單說明有關17條針對委員提案這個終止選舉是不是可以申請移轉投票的部分那因為我們現在目前來講的話大概"},{"start":7747.478,"end":7774.493,"text":"只有針對那個如果僅針對原住民的立委去實施不在籍投票的投票那因為這個在我們總統副總統的選罷法的部分是有但是這邊的話是不是就只有針對原住民那這個會是不是對於不在籍投票的部分有公平性的疑慮這是我們人力政部的立場那我們也建議是不是在全民公投的這個實施的狀況之後再來審慎推動這是有關第17條的部分那另外有關"},{"start":7776.329,"end":7800.334,"text":"盧委員談的第43條的部分那因為這個提案是只有增加原住民立委的當選人的選舉補貼那其實他這個也是會排除未當選者那是不是會產生說只有讀後給原住民立委的當選人那另外其他的非原住民的候選人其實也有可能以相同的理由以公平性來要求比照辦理那這個部分我們建議是有待商榷"},{"start":7801.55,"end":7821.757,"text":"那另外有關曾天才委員談的57條的秘密投票的部分那其實這個為了解決原住民的秘密投票的問題我們中選會其實已經有相關的處理方案了那至於那個有關不在籍的部分那在前面17條已經做說明那剛剛有談到包括70條71條73條還有那個民進黨團有談到74條的部分我這邊再簡單說明那在"},{"start":7831.041,"end":7852.849,"text":"其實在有關初缺立即補選的部分那這個部分是不是要跟區域立委去做一個去做一致的處理我們是建議還是要有各界的共識那我這邊也補充說明一下就是有關當選無效的部分在我們74條的規定那是規定有關在地方民意代表的當選人"},{"start":7853.709,"end":7873.999,"text":"那當然立法委員是另外一個不同的層次但是也是有類似情形所以我們這邊是如果說要改以補選的方式來做予以補時那這一增定這個原住民的立委的地補的部分有修法共識那我們內政部是並沒有其他的意見我想先簡單做個說明回應 謝謝好 謝謝吳次長 中選會請發言"},{"start":7879.134,"end":7902.671,"text":"主席還有我們各委員大家好那我想中選會的部分有關於選務的部分在17條跟57條就一併來回答那有關於不在籍投票的實施必須要考量這個選務層面的可行性那尤其特別是這個公平性公正性更應該要特別去這個考量"},{"start":7903.838,"end":7925.669,"text":"我們曾經也徵詢過各縣市選舉委員會的工作同仁他們也認為說這個時候來實施不在籍投票可能會造成混亂而且以他們現在的人力大概還不足以去做不在籍投票特別我舉以17條原住民的立委"},{"start":7931.212,"end":7937.223,"text":"那光是原住民的立委那如果是移轉的話那因為我們現在是合併舉行總統選總統副總統一張選票"},{"start":7941.969,"end":7962.186,"text":"三元一張選票平元一張選票政黨一張選票如果加上公投到底幾個案我們不知道假設一個案那就五張選票如果更多的話那更多了那這個現在在移轉上是有它的困難有它的困難那所以為什麼我們一直都主張說你先公投試看看"},{"start":7963.254,"end":7983.046,"text":"那有這個經驗以後我們再來做人的選舉比較不容易出錯因為人的選舉一旦出錯的話有時候是不可恢復性的那另外其次就是講說我們這個妨害秘密投票因為我們公職選舉有五種選舉那這五種選舉最小區域的是村里長選舉"},{"start":7984.349,"end":8001.026,"text":"那所以講選舉的話如果也是移轉投票的話那恐怕他也沒辦法達到說不妨礙秘密投票這個比較困難所以其實規則到最後不再急投票是未來的目標未來也事件上的問題但是先讓我們試看看公投"},{"start":8001.747,"end":8007.952,"text":"那讓大家有經驗了不會出錯了我們再來實施人的選舉以上是中選的立場"},{"start":8019.69,"end":8042.234,"text":"我很高興今天有這樣公開協商讓我的族人全國的人民可以再一次的檢驗我們這個政府是如何看待對待原住民族的我必須要說身為一個原住民的立法委員我非常遺憾宗嘉斌委員你是屏東選出來的台灣族的族人最多"},{"start":8042.987,"end":8067.962,"text":"而且有八個鄉而屏東選出來的吳立華委員你是我們自己的原住民的族人我非常的難過我們看一下71條73條上面的條文尤其是73條上面的條文明明白白講的全部都是立法委員全國的立法委員應該怎麼做"},{"start":8069.568,"end":8082.657,"text":"而我們的宗教兵委員也好 吳立華委員也好偏偏要把原住民的立法委員跟一般的民意代表的補選放在一起我不懂為什麼"},{"start":8084.198,"end":8099.993,"text":"我也希望他們能夠講清楚雖然剛剛說有一個複數跟單數的選區可是這是選舉制度上本來在我們長期以來對原住民選舉跟非原住民選舉就是這麼樣的一個規範"},{"start":8102.375,"end":8123.421,"text":"那你把這樣的規範把它變成就是一般的民意代表來解決現在原住民立法委員憲法保障原住民應該要有三席的立法委員他只要出缺就必須要補一席的這樣子的一個憲法的支持而我們剛剛的那個行政院"},{"start":8124.801,"end":8147.918,"text":"內政部吳次長你的說法也讓我沒有辦法接受你說會選的情勢民意代表都有很多那我請問你在一般立法委員有沒有會選的情勢如果有的話在73條71條為什麼不也規範為什麼必須要在原住民補選的時候就規範原住民要這種會選的情勢就不能夠補選"},{"start":8150.472,"end":8174.718,"text":"我非常的憤怒講白了講清楚了我跟我的主任在今天這個協商的場合跟大家說明講白了就是立法委員你只要出缺不管你死亡不管你就職前不管你就職後不管你怎麼樣你就必須補選這是憲法依照憲法的規定中華民國的憲法保障所有立法委員的規範為什麼原住民就要不一樣"},{"start":8175.638,"end":8198.653,"text":"我也很想要聽一下股仲 園民會你們的立場是什麼 以上謝謝好 現場溫度開始升高了吳定華委員 請發言好 謝謝我們尊重發言 吳定華委員請好 謝謝主席"},{"start":8203.05,"end":8230.028,"text":"我得講因為我覺得如果照規矩來就不會造成原住民在這麼多年來我們都跟人家不一樣這麼多年來不一樣也不見得大家願意來伸張所以我今天還是要再一次感謝韓院長謝謝您重視這個議題安排來做一個協商"},{"start":8231.121,"end":8255.375,"text":"第一個原住民向來就不滿意為什麼其他的立委是單一選區偏偏原住民是複數選區多少年來我們就極度不滿意如果我們可以跟其他人一樣是單一選區兩票制我們一出缺就可以補選啊我們有需要坐在這裡嗎這麼多年來"},{"start":8259.299,"end":8278.95,"text":"難道這個問題不存在嗎有人認真努力去解決它嗎所以今天坐在這裡我就先問拜託既然要修原住民改單一選區就這樣 就修"},{"start":8280.543,"end":8308.564,"text":"我就這樣子講就改單一選區要不然我不喜歡每一次大家在修法的時候就像好不容易我們也修法通過原住民合併成六都之後的園區這麼多年來修法的謬誤造成他們的財政有問題還不是到最近才解決這麼多年來發生有人重視嗎"},{"start":8310.578,"end":8339.801,"text":"我是很負責的我既質詢又提案只是沒機會被排所以今天我很贊成原住民我們的族人都在看也都在講每次都問我為什麼我們不行我極度贊成既然要這樣子單一選區補選選區劃分原住民立委連一樣的薪水"},{"start":8340.885,"end":8358.061,"text":"要跑全國我們的族人何其無辜我做四年我都服務不到我們希望單一選區即刻補選要不然不要再亂修法一會兒都按照自己的意思想說什麼就怎麼修"},{"start":8360.387,"end":8378.316,"text":"人家也在問啊 議員也在問啊當初你們原住民為什麼是這個樣子 複數選區為什麼你們會要出缺打二分之一補選我說沒辦法 因為按照我們的選罷法因為按照你們的議員說我們是複數選區啊所以我希望就改單一選區就這樣 謝謝鄭天才維你要補充嗎"},{"start":8389.301,"end":8410.291,"text":"中加病文请准备我们先听原民委员好这个初切就要一定要维持三席这个是共识了目前没有反对的意见所以我们就就照我们这个初切就要维持三席好的好的"},{"start":8411.325,"end":8432.12,"text":"那个庄家斌委员发言完以后原住民股仲副主委您要不要表达意见您请准备发言好吗好请家斌委员好谢谢吴立华委员终于说出原住民的心声刚刚有人提到说宪法宪法其实原住民族的立法委员是规定在宪法的征修条文"},{"start":8432.961,"end":8459.362,"text":"政协条文第四条第一项它分别有三款的规定自由地区直辖市县市73人每县市至少一人就写清楚了我们113位立委直辖市县市是73人自由地区平地原住民及三地原住民各三人这就是目前原住民立委六席的由来再来第三款全国部分区及侨区国外国民共34人"},{"start":8460.626,"end":8482.746,"text":"好了 名额定了 三款的名额分别是73 3加3等于6 还有34那么在第二项写的第一款各职辖市县市人口比例分配后按应选名额划分同额选举区选出白话讲就是一区选一个如果说我们认为中华民国的议委应该人人平等"},{"start":8483.749,"end":8501.79,"text":"那我們就來問啊那麼原住民立委應該跟其他的直轄市縣市都是單一選區這樣才不會造成選民跟他選出來的立委之間因為區域遼闊而產生的權益損失但是有沒有規定原住民這3加3 6席要怎麼分呢"},{"start":8502.386,"end":8525.885,"text":"没有 宪法增加法文写的第一款只有说直辖市县市73名是一区一席但是第三款依政党名单投票选举之第三款是什么就是全国不分区所以目前我们立法委员的选字很清楚73席区议立委一区一个34席不分区是用政党比例代表"},{"start":8526.789,"end":8546.828,"text":"有沒有規定第二款的原住民平原三原各三席的選舉方式抱歉正確條文這一條的修法我參與過沒有所以秘書長剛剛聽到說憲法要改憲法抱歉秘書長你或許議事規則很熟啊憲法你還沒有參與過修正啊我是修憲法的"},{"start":8548.777,"end":8574.211,"text":"我是修憲法的所以呢第二款到底原住民三元跟平原這三席要怎麼選舉產生選舉罷免法就有法律訂定的空間所以一直以來我們聽到包括吳立華委員在內希望能夠這三個三席三元平原各三席每區一名就陳如剛高軍委員所希望的各民族一律平等就通通不要再分平地跟三地了就是通通是"},{"start":8575.311,"end":8592.643,"text":"區域立委選舉包括原住民的立委選舉依應選舉同額選舉區選舉區那就是這樣啊原住民就分成六個選區啊一區一個啊缺額級補選啊跟平地的立委一模一樣啊這不就達到了各民主義的平等嗎但是如果這個不改"},{"start":8593.624,"end":8604.806,"text":"還是要維持複數選區那麼為了保障複數選區民意代表跟他選民的關聯所有的複數選區的民意代表都是這樣缺額可以遞補缺額達二分之以上者要改選"},{"start":8606.085,"end":8632.76,"text":"這在全中華民國任何一個複數選區的民意選區都一樣這也是不分族群一律平等如果真的要講不分族群一律平等請堅持要不就比照我們立法委員單一選區原住民六席也是單一選區如果要維持複數選區那麼就按照所有全國複數選區的規定出缺一條件限制可以遞補或者出缺達二分之以上就可以產生重選"},{"start":8633.772,"end":8658.766,"text":"注意喔 初缺達二分之以上者就重選喔所以這才是一個我們民主國家選舉的根本的制度原則不分族群一律平等請倡議民主平等的委員要落實原住民單一選區或者說比照所有的民意代表的複數選區初缺達二分之三者辦理補選或者說未達二分之三者依其法律規定的條件進行遞補這才是正辦"},{"start":8660.52,"end":8686.01,"text":"好谢谢特别跟中间病文报告我们周万来秘书长在大学教宪法教了几十年不要说他对宪法他专门教宪法的好好好那谢谢今天我们大家都热爱原住民我们请原住民副主委表达一句好吗谢谢谢谢主席"},{"start":8687.134,"end":8703.514,"text":"我想我們研究民主的立法委員的選舉制度確實長年以來都需要檢討所以我們看到我們在座很多研究民主的委員在服務全國各地都非常辛苦奔波幾乎是全國都在跑"},{"start":8704.235,"end":8722.608,"text":"那今天能夠來討論來檢討修法管理原住民立委缺一席之後採補險或是遞補這樣的方式其實是對原住民族來講是合理的所以這是確實是要長年需要改善至於說是採"},{"start":8724.249,"end":8745.374,"text":"補選的或是地補的方式我們剛剛聽到中選會跟內政部的報告他可能會涉及到選務規劃跟行政能力的問題行政的可行性的部分所以這個我們會跟行政單位的意見一致那當然原住民的立委的選舉制度確實是需要做檢討的以上"},{"start":8750.919,"end":8778.688,"text":"副主委讲了半天没有太具体就是一个内心的一个呐喊有这种感觉好吧好各位亲爱的党团干部还有练习官员谢谢我们第二案现在讨论显然还没有办法达成共识但是因为时间的关系我们可能要进入第三案容许我提出一下我们第二案还没有达成共识我们先到此告一段落我们再来继续协商等下次协商完毕之后我们再来纳入我们朝野的协商"},{"start":8779.168,"end":8805.918,"text":"可能會比較 沒關係 高委員您稍待一下我們準備要進入第三案 高靜雯請發言好 我覺得院長剛剛做了這樣的裁示其實我是不是在提供一下意見那事實上事實上剛剛鍾嘉斌委員也好或者是吳立華委員也好他們都同意原住民缺的話就要補"},{"start":8807.927,"end":8828.316,"text":"這個現在是講補選或遞補他們剛剛講了那麼多 講到憲法去那是另外的議題那如果今天他們大家對這些原住民的選區很大然後到底是要分山園跟平原全部六行 或者是要怎樣那是另外的議題 今天不是朝野協商的議題"},{"start":8829.216,"end":8849.586,"text":"今天草野協商的議題只有一個很重要的問題就是原住民的立法委員出缺了要不要補選或者要遞補或者民進黨團說的原住民只要是有會選的就不可以所以就是這三個所以沒有那麼複雜所以我的建議我剛剛也跟民眾黨的齊凱"},{"start":8851.807,"end":8868.164,"text":"討論了然後另外也跟國民黨團的幾位也討論了那天才委員我們其實都覺得如果民進黨團對於補選沒有意見他只是用補選還是要用地補"},{"start":8869.065,"end":8889.304,"text":"那沒有什麼好討論的啊還要什麼再協商呢再協商還是把它拉到更其他的問題今天朝野協商就是這麼簡單所以我的建議是不是主席夏才智是不是如果沒有意見的話我們就表決吧好不好 謝謝那院長"},{"start":8891.736,"end":8917.525,"text":"抱歉那個我可不可以要求各位原住民委員必須相親相愛一下請吳立委謝謝主席我其實沒有要講話但是聽到錯的我們不能讓他錯下去我強調一下因為這個關鍵是在於是不是單一選區 複數選區其實我們原住民的議員以我屏東園鄉來講"},{"start":8919.406,"end":8942.993,"text":"他們因為是單一選區 他們是出缺就補選的所以這個跟什麼那個 我的意思是說我們不要老是把那個整個法制碰到了原住民 我們就好像不照規矩來因為你們當初立法是用這個規矩 我們也必須要照這個規矩走所以我的意思是說 我們現在的這樣的版本只是照著法理 法體的規矩來"},{"start":8944.233,"end":8972.699,"text":"所以刚才有一句错误原住民因为是议员是单一选区所以是出缺及补选好我们现在还有柯建民委员张其凯委员还有郑天才委员都急着发言容许我因为我们还有第三案拜托大家简短二要谢谢请柯总召张其凯委员请准备非常简短而且把整个程序带入到一个有目标的方向来走我们一直在合格演示大于讨论这不对了"},{"start":8973.897,"end":8998.171,"text":"這已經進入了主條的問題了所以我在這裡不對各方的意見做任何的評判也就是說我應該站在哪一個立場大家的立場都站得很對立所以我們今天應該只要到這裡應該是每個條文一一保留然後來宴會處理這樣才是正法我的方法 再來一次也是一樣"},{"start":8999.352,"end":9025.118,"text":"這又不是在大爺討厭了 航空公園也自有時代了好不好 這樣才有效率剛剛 抱歉 剛剛聽下來應該是有柯文哲發言完畢 柯文哲不愧是老船長 航向非常精確好 張新幹委前短而已我們就聽那個在大學教憲法的吧 聽周秘書長的像剛剛我一輪聽下來 我們公正的聽下來包括民進黨都同意說 如果有缺額是要補選的啊"},{"start":9026.218,"end":9045.812,"text":"你看這個條文修正條文第73條第73條一開始就講立法委員第71條講的是當選人都是講立委嘛你現在如果是選區的問題那你付諸選區的單一你趕快去修去推可是大家有共識就是只要有缺額是要補已經有共識就聽那個秘書長的而且也不用那個 必要的話"},{"start":9047.076,"end":9065.837,"text":"必要的話就表決也是一個方式啦他們的話就把他送到抱歉抱歉我另外爭取一下好不好台灣民眾黨一直爭取不在即投票我們支持原住民的不在即投票那麼要求院長你一直在強調那個什麼北漂藍漂很多年輕人工作人員他們在投票前被投票被剝奪了嘛"},{"start":9066.337,"end":9092.26,"text":"那為了省時間省錢讓他們有投票權我記得應該趕快把不在一起投票的同時趕快來推動好不好好謝謝那個院長國民黨團要表達意見國民黨團要表達意見事實上這個事情啊今天花了很多時間其實我們剛剛協商速度都很快那這個事情觸礁了那我們就做一次做一次清楚的表達既然三個黨"},{"start":9093.479,"end":9116.087,"text":"都不反對對於原住民立委出缺的時候就應該要來補選我們就focus在這裡那其他的部分我們就暫不宜討論那三個黨都同意處理那我們就交院會處理了因為再協商的話也花很多大家的時間但是再補選"},{"start":9118.3,"end":9145.64,"text":"不選的這個事情上我們達成共識那其他的還沒有共識的部分就暫不處理我們就處理這個事情我們就送院會處理那個天才委員我想您發言如果不會超過這個範圍容許我做一個簡短扼要的一個好 宣告好嗎我們跟各黨團幹部報告就尊重柯總召 傅總召的看法我們第二案沒有達成共識我們全部送院會處理好嗎"},{"start":9147.464,"end":9167.979,"text":"副總召議事就只有處理一個條文而已喔講清楚 只有補選那一部分其他不處理喔對 這五個條文那個秘密投票的部分那個內政部跟學委會已經表達同意了那個當然可以來處理"},{"start":9172.116,"end":9191.51,"text":"尤其中選會是採取從公投法先開始我們從頭到尾都仔細的傾聽全部保留啦這個秘密投票跟不在籍投票不是完全一致的"},{"start":9192.355,"end":9218.904,"text":"秘密投票是针对我们都会期比如说大安期某个投票所只有一个原住民的选民他投票给谁马上就知道了就违反了中华民国宪法的秘密投票解决这个部分过去我质询内政部质询中选会都没有意见了"},{"start":9221.264,"end":9249.398,"text":"跟那个不在一起投票没有关系所以这个部分中选会跟内政部不要再坚持以前都没有问题啊看回去看会议记录都没有问题啊好的谢谢那谢谢天才委员那容许我做一个宣告好吗我们第二案并没有达成共识我们就全部提报院会进行处理好我们现在进入第三案的协商请幕僚人员就就定位谢谢列席的官员谢谢"},{"start":9282.267,"end":9307.764,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐我們現在進行協商第三案公務人員退休之前撫恤法部分條文修正草案及公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例部分條文修正草案我們首先要介紹各位列席的機關以及各位列席的官員首先請考試院劉秘書長"},{"start":9309.602,"end":9335.352,"text":"美丽明长到 请坐全序部司部长 请坐行政院人事总处的苏人事长 请坐教育部的朱次长 欢迎请坐司法院的许厅长 请坐内政部的陈处长 请坐国防部的林专门委员"},{"start":9337.247,"end":9356.548,"text":"好 请坐劳动部的蔡专门委员及李专门委员劳动部代表好 请坐农业部王继正请坐卫福部的姚专门委员好 欢迎大家我们现在请各党团来表达对不起"},{"start":9358.786,"end":9376.19,"text":"我們後面還有各位列席的警政署消防署移民署空中勤務總隊海巡海洋委員會各位通通舉手打招呼就好了好不好好謝謝歡迎大家好我們先請各黨團代表來提案的黨團請國民黨團請表達意見"},{"start":9383.749,"end":9403.598,"text":"我想有關於這個公教的這個停凱所得替代率的問題真的已經討論了很久了那本黨的立場還是非常清楚我們過去李國鼎曾經說過如果說今天是讓二流的人才"},{"start":9404.81,"end":9422.659,"text":"然后一流的人都不到政府来变成二三流的人来领导一流的人的话我们政府也不会推出好的政策民养执政之后不断的在削夺我们公教人员的尊严待遇跟退休保障"},{"start":9423.886,"end":9445.596,"text":"這個已經造成我們今天文官崩壞人才崩解的兩大灰犀牛已經直衝台灣而來所以停侃這個所謂的所得替代語它才是真的改革是阻止這隻灰犀牛繼續前進我們的最後一道關卡講的很簡單一件事情你光國考的報考人數就從30萬跌到"},{"start":9450.738,"end":9470.926,"text":"去年的16萬跌到今年的11萬難道危機還不清楚嗎停砍所得替代率不是要恢復到2018年以前的水準而是說今天你砍過頭造成我們國家文官崩壞老師找不到沒有人"},{"start":9471.567,"end":9491.809,"text":"沒有辦法去培育人才的這個重大危機所以在這邊我們還是在重申國民黨的立場希望民進黨我覺得對我們公教人員真的要知道他們才是我們國家的棟樑跟基底要好好照顧 以上謝謝羅志強書記長的發言接下來我們請柯總召發言台灣民眾黨團請準備"},{"start":9494.793,"end":9515.415,"text":"公共教育能源是一個國家一個重大基底我百分之百贊成但是請不要忘記年輕改革曾經改過了那我們今天要再回頭過來把它改回來這個會造成整個年輕人體的破產也許是整個公民性的問題那個這個是自為明顯的問題"},{"start":9516.917,"end":9542.96,"text":"我希望國民黨不要因為要討好然後把國家整個制度破壞造成年齡提早破產這今天重點在這個地方嘛當然我們沒有辦法接受好 民進黨團態度非常的清楚台灣民眾黨團發言之後我們請考試院表達意見請張七開委員我先提醒民進黨不是要改回來沒有要恢復過去的只是停砍因為你砍太多了"},{"start":9544.168,"end":9572.243,"text":"現在砍的已經是大概公教人員退休人員他的三分之一的退休金被砍掉了更重要的當初主管機關考試驗題的版本是從八成開始砍每年砍1%結果民進黨用多數砍過頭了他從七成五開始砍就是一開始就多砍了5%每一年又多變成1.5又多0.5到今年底已經比原來考試驗十年都還多了"},{"start":9573.525,"end":9584.162,"text":"砍過頭了所以可以停了我們要強調沒有要恢復以前可是已經砍過頭了所以要停砍民眾黨的修法非常的明確清楚我們經過"},{"start":9586.119,"end":9604.661,"text":"民調 大規模的民調這個沒有世代的問題連年輕人都是支持的特別要強調一點這段時間很多現職的公教人員來陳情你們一直在 民進黨一直在製造社會對立這次的這個 這次停侃不是只有照顧退休的人員現職的人員 公教人員也被照顧到了"},{"start":9605.262,"end":9624.355,"text":"他們說他們現在最可憐的 他們現在多繳又零少啊所以包括限職的公家都支持這次的要停砍那我們修的就是第37條跟38條要求從今年年底開始 就是這個月月底開始不要再往下砍了 沒有要恢復 可是不要再往下砍了另外呢 依照物價調整這個機制"},{"start":9627.577,"end":9648.215,"text":"只要超過5%只要物價只是超過5%累計多少就是要再調多少因為目前這個規定對公教人員非常不公平我們的勞保就很清楚我到了5%以後你如果是超過6%就調6%到了7%就調7%可是我們現在不是現在公教被規定還要限制就是說有"},{"start":9648.976,"end":9668.384,"text":"考試院跟主管機關還要去設限用了很多條件結果弄到後來譬如說到5%的時候後來只有調了3%那我們現在就非常這是非常明定的明確 只要超過累積到5%就要調那調的就依照實際是多少例如說已經到了6%就調6%7%就調7%最主要是這兩個點 謝謝好 謝謝張啟凱委員的發言聽你發言完我感覺你是長得越來越正義凜然了好 我們請考試院發言全席副請準備"},{"start":9677.192,"end":9700.521,"text":"院長各位委員先進 那個我就簡單的說我想在討論這個議題的時候 大家要注意我們退服基金一個不足而提撥的特性 這個是從制度一開始就有的所以他才會造成這個潛藏債務那我們國家現在各職業別的保險跟基金有很多跟退休基金有好多都是有這樣的狀況所以呢 即便這次沒有完成修法去停止"},{"start":9702.022,"end":9730.196,"text":"這個調降所得替代率他都還會造成我們後代未來的政府執政者有非常大的財務負擔那如果這一次修法真的是停止調降的話他也會造成我們退伍基金提前用完這樣的一個狀況那所以我們站在守護退伍基金希望能夠盡量朝向永續這個方向來前進來這個維持他的永續性我們希望不要沒有辦法支持這樣的一個修法方向那其他部分我想就請全區部"},{"start":9731.096,"end":9753.568,"text":"师部长来补充好的刘秘书长讲得非常清楚考试院立场我们接下来请全续部师部长请表达意见院长各位委员我想我就补充说明我想整个站在退伏金的一个立场来讲从秘书长刚刚讲现在的问题就在于就是不足而提拨所以即使没有这一次的提早停止调降基金也可能在138年就会破产"},{"start":9754.244,"end":9767.55,"text":"那現在如果再往前體脂調降我們估算過大概會提早三到四年那這個後面的錢呢事實上就是不夠了所以這個錢到底要怎麼去處理這是很嚴肅很嚴肅的一個課題那第二個事情"},{"start":9769.392,"end":9786.501,"text":"剛剛我有提到我們看那個修法的概念裡面如果繼續維持在討論我們現在設計是讓退休者跟著CPI走我想這是當初討論我們贊成應該繼續維持跟CPI走可是如果把現在的制度有提案修法說要跟著限制人員調薪"},{"start":9787.321,"end":9803.64,"text":"我們建議真的是不可行我想這也是不應該的事情那如果這兩個條文同時又存在又隨限職人員調情又隨CPI調整我想那更是會讓已經退的人反而會比限職人員調整還高這是更是不應該的一個事情"},{"start":9804,"end":9829.833,"text":"我想这整个站在全区会立场从基金的角度这个姿势真的是很体大所以我们建议是不应该提早停止调教好 谢谢我们全区部师部长宝贵发言我们再补充介绍我们教育部政部长亲自也来列席了谢谢 欢迎那各位党团干部现在经过行政部门考试院以及全区部的说明之后各位党团要不要做二轮发言"},{"start":9831.052,"end":9859.438,"text":"好 民進黨團我們請不用了對 不做二輪發言了好 那我現在就做一個宣告我們第三案沒有辦法打成共識我們就全部送院會進行處理第四案目前也還沒有辦法打成共識我們則其處理第四案第四案請柯建民委員請發言第四案它這個沒有經過委員會召委協商就直接排在這裡這不合體制所以把它退回等下我講"},{"start":9861.287,"end":9875.327,"text":"請委員會召委協商以後可能有可能就解決掉了就不必來這裡了好不好 我們就回到好 可是我們到第四案我們就退回到委員會去請召委來負責好 那我們現在已經接近12點了我們到時候就"},{"start":9876.869,"end":9895.127,"text":"第四案的话我们先退回那刚才营业还有非营业我们还有一个二轮发二轮的一个会到时候我们再会发开会通知张七海委员请主席抱歉我提醒一下今年基本法为什么党团那边没有写那个委员会那边没有写因为是"},{"start":9895.747,"end":9908.54,"text":"趙偉是民進黨的趙偉他自己一直不協商他要協商啊你們為什麼你們這麼重視這個案子為什麼你們我們要排啊是你們大夫職守為什麼可以拖延我們的審查制度不是 他直接把它排進來不對了我們請趙警員速判趙偉還沒協商啊好"},{"start":9911.242,"end":9915.843,"text":"請教育召委我們加速來排案那我們第四案到時候再請教育委員會來處理好嗎好現在謝謝我們現在今天的協商到此為止我們先散會謝謝"},{"start":9937.06,"end":9937.28,"text":"來 暗示台 請"}]}},{"id":"166361","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166361","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b18275595d7c19ab39b5fe7457644078f06cb862312e5c4d1f10497944ed0372c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:07:02 - 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那核安會我們是不是已經確認了這些所謂的時間差還有老化進程當中的一些差異並排除掉時程的壓力會造成所謂的被迫加速審查這樣子的一個利率這兩個問題請教一下核安會核安會職責最重要的是確保核電廠運作的安全這點是毫無模糊的餘地我們審查"},{"start":188.533,"end":208.936,"text":"那我們會不會主動公布我再重複一次問題我們會不會主動公布這個安全審查需要多久的一個評估我們會一切都是非常透明所有的申請書我們的審查意見台電的回覆我們都會上網公告而且每一個程序都會"},{"start":210.605,"end":235.556,"text":"讓大家知道而且我們絕對不會為了縮短時間是 剛剛我有特別提到就是說我們的核二大概是差三年它的老化狀況可能跟之前我們的評估可能就會完全不一樣我們有沒有把在審查的過程當中這些有可能的一些比方說它老化的程度或者是它的一些變數我們有沒有把它考量在"},{"start":235.936,"end":264.966,"text":"那一定要考慮的所以已經有這樣子的一個考量那必須要做的好那我們剛剛有提到這個核一其實最後被判定是因為老化過於嚴重這個核一的部分那另外如果說核三要重啟這老化的評估將是一個非常非常重要的一個關鍵那我想這個核三的老化評估的標準會不會比核一更加的嚴格我舉例來講包含防震"},{"start":265.666,"end":293.531,"text":"那麼包含壓力容器的一個催化還有它的結構性的疲勞另外還有蒸氣產生器等等這些有沒有包含在裡頭因為我們也看到這個國際它有例行檢查的一個但卻看不出問題的一個案例那包含這個戴維斯貝西核電廠他們真的例行的檢查但問題是他居然找不到這個問題在哪裡有這樣子的一個案例所以我們核三如果真的要重啟我們的核安的條件"},{"start":294.551,"end":324.168,"text":"會不會比核一要來得更加的嚴謹請教我們對這個所有的老化所有零件的老化評估都會非常非常的仔細檢查就這樣一句話而且這是因為已經申請延期20年所以核安會對這個是非常非常謹慎的那我直接這樣問我說我們核電的自主檢查現在目前有沒有接軌最新的國際的標準這點請高主任回答"},{"start":325.064,"end":347.797,"text":"跟委員說明有關於老化跟反應乳這些的組件或一些必須要考慮到的因素會裡面有參考國際的一些標準跟做法因為我記得何三當初有說如果要研議的話這個蒸汽產生器其實要不要換那之前其實我們的台電有說必須要換那現在這個立場是一致的嗎"},{"start":349.018,"end":362.918,"text":"這個還是要透過台電公司現場去檢查然後進行評估之後我們才會知道那會不會公開重要檢查的項目跟標準會不會公開當然啦那個在運轉計畫裡面就會去規範說台電公司要做哪些事情"},{"start":363.92,"end":382.917,"text":"因為這個是建立社會信任最重要最關鍵的一步啦所以其實在這個檢查的項目那我們有沒有接軌國際或者是說我們的這些項目嚴謹到什麼樣的一個程度我相信其實應該要公開透明讓更多的社會能夠了解我們有社會共識剛剛有提到社會共識很重要喔好"},{"start":383.357,"end":408.135,"text":"第三個問題來了我想這個後端的核廢料如果沒有規劃好其實根本不用考慮研議的一個問題我相信這個核二的乾除其實我們拖了大概也說2030年這個將近快要10年那另外就是核廢料的一個處理如果沒有解決的話核電的政策其實就會被卡住那我想這個核廢料的處理是非常非常的重要請教一下核安會"},{"start":408.735,"end":433.565,"text":"是不是已經要求這個核三的重啟的計畫必須要同步提出我的乾除的時程跟地方有沒有進行非常密切的溝通另外呢再來進度在哪裡如果核三沒有清楚的乾除的一個時程請問我們會不會認為這是不符合審查啟動的一個正當性另外就是高放的長指"},{"start":434.045,"end":444.975,"text":"我們講今年要提出今年年底要提出請問現在的時間是12月11號到目前我沒有看到草案這個目前草案在哪裡"},{"start":447.273,"end":473.519,"text":"向委員報告有關河山的甘楚的部分在12月4號台電公司第一次開標因為沒有搭三家所以它這不符合相關採購法規定台電公司會再辦理第二次的公開招標作業相關的期程其實掌握在河岸會的部分我們大概建造執照會省一年半左右"},{"start":474.759,"end":502.398,"text":"市運轉跟運轉執照各省四個月其他的工程的要件都是由台電公司來掌控那第二個問題有關那個委員吹詢的這個高放處置的宣誓條例我們其實河岸會主動邀集經濟部在今年開了三次會議我們提供我們的管制資訊給他但是目前草案還在經濟部還在內部討論中說12月底呢"},{"start":503.558,"end":524.592,"text":"12月底 現在已經快要12月底了我們理解 但是因為這是經濟部的作業我們其實沒辦法去質詢好 那我到經濟部那邊再去質詢的意思嗎謝謝好 那我想 我剛剛講到這個所謂的高放長值這個條例的部分目前你們也還沒看到沒有"},{"start":524.992,"end":554.241,"text":"好那因为你们没看到那我当然更看不到所以我可能还要再继续的追问但是我真的希望就是核安会在整个所有的条例当中我刚刚讲12月底之前出来的这个草案我们核安会有没有角色在里面有没有角色一般来讲就是经济部他要做临选计划的时候他会征询我们的意见然后日后如果寻找出场址他的安全性由我们来负责确认"},{"start":555.233,"end":583.931,"text":"好 你们来负责确认好 我相信今天其实我们主席特别排这样子的一个就是请你们来做这样子的一个业务的报告那最重要的其实我们应该要从合一给我们的一些教训也好给我们的一些历史的经验也好就是审查不能压缩尤其是安全性的部分绝对不能因为政治的关系而压缩到所谓的安全审查的这个时程再来后端不能拖延"},{"start":584.731,"end":601.067,"text":"還有就是老化的部分我們不能輕忽其實這三大重點只要我們掌握住才有資格來談後續我核三要重啟這樣子的一個問題所以我相信我也希望這個核安會我們用最嚴謹"},{"start":602.348,"end":627.701,"text":"然後再來最公開的一個方式我們把審查的過程然後跟民間的溝通跟所有的共識的集結然後包含我剛剛所提到的到現在12月我們是還沒有看到所謂的高放選址到底什麼時候這個草案條例才會出來那這個部分如果河安會你們這邊有先第一手掌握到一些訊息再提供給我辦公室可以嗎可以的好 謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":632.091,"end":639.049,"text":"謝謝郭鈺晴委員 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謝謝主席 那我要請立法院的副秘書長還有立法院的法治局局長請副秘書長還有法治局局長"},{"start":16.639,"end":40.239,"text":"來 委員好好 兩位我想要就剛剛副秘書長您的答覆我們接下來往下問剛王逸川委員問了然後吳思耀委員也問了如果有人沒有請助理那你們請要不要撥給他那你的說法呢一下說有研究一下說只是看過一下我已經不知道你的說法到底是什麼但我認為你很為難因為你其實上面有長官我也知道你撥好多說那我來舉一個例子什麼樣的委員膽敢"},{"start":44.142,"end":57.98,"text":"覺得自己了不起偉大到不需要請助理然後還來拿這個錢我試想了一下有誰敢這麼大膽那我就用一般公民社會對於立法委員的想像來說我手上有一張呢"},{"start":59.549,"end":83.925,"text":"這些是被工都盟按照實際的數據統計出來的不來質詢的委員他們的工作表現光是基本的質詢就不來他就算翻翻報紙當天來問新聞都好但是他來都不來這些人就很有可能不請助理然後來當立法委員我來唸一下名字"},{"start":85.354,"end":95.701,"text":"黃建斌 林倩琦 圖全吉 盧憲一 張志倫 林佩翔 謝龍介 顏寬恆 丁學中 麥玉珍 倒數第十"},{"start":97.113,"end":124.645,"text":"光是質詢提法案提預算做都不做來都不來而這些人就很有可能符合我們剛剛的假設因為你剛剛說你不回答假設性問題但我還是要問假設這些委員覺得自己了不起只要選上了反正預算呢公民也看不懂法案審查一般人也看不懂然後呢有沒有上電視被發現有沒有質詢也沒有人在意反正他就當一個"},{"start":126.646,"end":131.112,"text":"領700多萬的陽春立委這樣的人你們也要撥款給他嗎"},{"start":133.846,"end":157.419,"text":"謝謝委員 我無權發表個人的評論你無權發表喔 所以我要問我們立法院的錢是人民的納稅錢就直接會匯入這些委員的私人帳戶嗎我要再問一次 會匯入私人帳戶嗎因為剛剛有委員問嘛 這個錢不會進入私人帳戶那我就問 不進私人帳戶 那我陳培瑜擔任立委期間我要怎麼拿到這筆錢啊"},{"start":160.191,"end":174.931,"text":"如果委員想要了解的是現在目前的一個撥款狀況我當然知道現在的狀況我們在針對陳玉珍委員的提案跟您討論那這個部分是陳玉珍委員的提案我們實在不適合就評論好 沒關係您隔壁是法治局局長"},{"start":176.516,"end":194.869,"text":"在今年114年呢你們出了一個報告報告的名字呢好沒有訊號沒關係我直接說報告的名字叫做各國國會公費助理之比較研究監論立法委員聘任公費助理相關法治問題研究分析"},{"start":196.314,"end":214.033,"text":"出這個報告的是法治局的郭明正也就是您本人還有陳偉佑114年3月 請問您還記得這個報告嗎我知道在報告裡面你們有一段話讓我看了瞠目結舌啊原來立法院的幕僚單位可以指導司法機關"},{"start":215.936,"end":222.001,"text":"你覺得你有這麼大嗎我念給你聽喔我對您的懷疑是你身為立法院的幕僚機關你竟然可以指導司法機關我們等一下法務部來說一說他們的立場但在那之前我要先聽一聽您的立場你覺得你比司法機關還要大你的報告是這麼說的"},{"start":236.294,"end":263.604,"text":"你說目前國會的公費治理制度呢採寬鬆管理用人彈性的規定司法檢調機關云影在尊重立法機關的國會自律範圍內限縮相關違法性調查之偵查審判範圍你要不要自己用白話文解釋一下這句話什麼意思你對全國人民說你這句話什麼意思"},{"start":265.023,"end":284.03,"text":"叫司法機關說我們立法委員就是要給彈性給空間給好給滿你們司法機關在調查這些立法委員的時候要放寬彈性放好放滿然後相關的違法偵查審判範圍你們司法機關少說一點少管一點是這個意思嗎"},{"start":285.89,"end":304.256,"text":"我們做這一份報告是給我們委員做參考給我們委員做參考所以你的意思是陳玉珍看了你這個參考之後覺得我撿到寶了我按照你們的建議我來做出強害公費助理權益的修法"},{"start":305.273,"end":321.76,"text":"我沒辦法揣測陳一正委員的提案我們都會尊重委員的提案那我可以問你嗎請問法治局做各式各樣的報告都是因著法案法案的提案而來對不對或者是針對相關社會輿情討論或者是你們覺得重要的議題是嗎沒有"},{"start":322.08,"end":342.501,"text":"根文報告 基本上我們是立法院的幕僚我們是協助立法院做問政的參考我們收集各國的相關文獻來做這樣的專案很好 你自己都說了 你是立法院的幕僚機關你為什麼會寫出這個結論啊你為什麼覺得你可以指導司法機關做出這個限縮範圍的討論跟偵查範圍啊"},{"start":345.504,"end":363.784,"text":"你說我指導司法機關這個太沉重我沒有指導是嗎 你的寫法看起來就像指導司法機關我們是建議而已建議對 我們是建議好 那請問你這個建議的基礎跟背景是因為你覺得有非常多立法委員或是基層民意代表在相關助理費上有產生很多爭議"},{"start":364.705,"end":384.262,"text":"所以你認為你要積極的幫這些立法委員跟民意代表爭取更大的空間來使用這個助理費你是這個意思嗎我們這部的報告都有前後的邏輯好我讓你說你的邏輯是什麼如果說要這樣子的話我是不是要全部把它念過一遍我不用你全部問因為這個全部都有上網公開但我就問"},{"start":385.143,"end":399.245,"text":"那這一句關於指導司法機關的你怎麼說所以人家才會說陳玉珍的修法在除罪話陳玉珍的修法是要自肥啊那你怎麼看好 身為法治局那我現在就問你針對陳玉珍委員的提案你怎麼看"},{"start":401.243,"end":427.359,"text":"跟委員報委員的提案只是提出來然後大家討論 其他委員也都可以提案大家討論 那太好了 我們來討論一下來 局長我問一下 你怎麼看陳玉珍的提案我們現在來討論 我的看法就是這樣 我跟你討論我的看法很簡單民意代表不可以壓榨國會助理剛剛所有委員都說了 不管支不支持這個提案"},{"start":428.516,"end":446.972,"text":"你應該可以看得出來如果立法委員沒有國會助理的幫忙請問我們的質詢我們的法案我們的預算審查我們的選民服務我們所有跟專家學者民間團體的討論甚至是我們所有今天每一天在立法院所發生的事情都需要國會助理不是嗎而當國會助理的錢全部都要打包給立法委員是人民納稅的錢在這裡劃的"},{"start":454.699,"end":470.985,"text":"每一年8.5億的錢全部打包給113個立法委員然後造成一種私吞公帑的狀況然後還不用單據欸我就不知道問喔不用單據要怎麼核銷啊我都不想問後面的主計之類的我就問怎麼核銷"},{"start":473.618,"end":490.095,"text":"然後這些錢呢還不是只有立法委員喔還有議員的部分陳玉珍這次修法更殘忍的是他把地方議員的部分一起提進來的也就是說陳玉珍他他認為他是做好人他私下跟我聊天說他在做好人他在救很多人啊"},{"start":490.896,"end":520.596,"text":"好人做到滿不是只有中央的民意代表連地方議員的助理費一併提案而那個費用來到29.8億所以全台灣人的納稅錢每年將近40億全部直接打包給民意代表放進他的私人賬戶問號因為剛你們也沒有解釋清楚到底要放哪裡去然後這些錢不用單據核銷不用公開透明不用跟國人報告這些錢用到哪裡去了"},{"start":522.076,"end":549.026,"text":"這就是陳玉珍修法的現況身為法治局的專業你怎麼看那跟委員報告我是第三屆就進來立法院我在立法院將近大概滿30年太好了我也認識很多公衛助理其實我的內心是覺得委員跟助理是一個很緊密的關係太好了內心這段多講一點來現在目前的一些我也認識很多很優秀的助理"},{"start":549.386,"end":566.481,"text":"是對 這些助理對委員的問責其實幫很多所以我們都一直希望朝著保障助理的角度因為這是委員的提案這個工會助理的事務這個業務不是我們法律履辦相關的執行細節真的要問"},{"start":567.722,"end":592.457,"text":"人事單位那我在立法院將近30年我看到很多委員的助理都非常的優秀那協助委員的問證我覺得這個現在目前的對助理制度的保障是我是覺得還是不大夠大聲一點啦因為你剛剛戴口罩剛剛這段話拜託你重複一遍根據你的內心話你認為光是現在的制度對於現任的公費助理保障都已經不夠了對不對"},{"start":594.638,"end":622.777,"text":"對不對我再問一次對不對我是蠻贊同我們院長講的就是說應該這個委員跟助理是一個國會的一個核心的領域我們一起來共同維護立法權的尊嚴太好了我們今天總算聽到您的真心話剛都沒有委員叫你上來但我就很想聽真心話謝謝你用30年的經驗告訴這些提案的委員到現在還不肯撤案的委員我們來看下一張哪些人"},{"start":624.178,"end":630.125,"text":"我們先直接跳下一張這些人我不要為難你 我幫你念"},{"start":632.059,"end":652.809,"text":"提案人陳玉珍不管是立法院組織法或是地方民意代表費用連署的人這些人還想出來選縣市首長當他們在當民意代表的時候就已經決定這樣苛刻自己的助理我難以想像這些人當上地方首長之後他會如何對待他的幕僚如何對待他每天幫他賣命付出"},{"start":653.709,"end":683.009,"text":"的人林思敏要選舉蘇清泉可能也要選舉盧憲一鄭振前丁薛忠高進素美陳雪生邱振軍洪孟凱黃仁鄭天才馬文君謝龍介呂玉玲邱若驊陳超明徐宇珍游皓葛如君翁曉琳廖先祥羅明才林倩琪徐欣盈楊瓊英林德福張家俊"},{"start":683.989,"end":706.485,"text":"委員的名字都在上面了我幫你念完了我現在公開呼籲陳玉珍你要不要撤案請你趕快做出說明不要說出模擬兩可的話甚至還打算摸頭公費助理還有助理公會的幹部說可以討論但不撤案我沒有辦法接受這個說法"},{"start":707.346,"end":729.95,"text":"第二我也想要公開呼籲這些委員你們可以撤簽當然現在因為已經送到委員會了撤簽必須要提案委員的認可所以我不知道陳玉珍會不會施壓給這些簽名的委員不讓他們撤簽但我認為不論是撤案或是撤簽都是所謂的回頭試案"},{"start":732.691,"end":760.688,"text":"不要再讓公費助理承受更多不公平的對待而陳玉珍甚至還荒謬跟傅昆奇說這是進步法案我就問哪裡進步他們還說美國都是這樣來 我請教您喔在您的報告當中有研究到各國的法制 對嗎你要不要告訴我在美國所謂的一大包打包給國會議員相關的配套是什麼"},{"start":762.301,"end":777.567,"text":"你可以告訴我嗎可以請您說明嗎 在您的報告裡面你不用照念 你只要大概告訴我因為陳玉珍跟傅昆奇一直在對外瞎講說美國也是這樣做的我其實有研究我也可以說 但我想聽聽您的說法"},{"start":779.307,"end":799.705,"text":"因為美國是一個總統制的國家其實我們現在的工會助理的主要制度是模仿美國的制度我們這邊的收集的文獻資料現在美國的眾議院他的助理他全職 最多可以聘到18人"},{"start":801.892,"end":819.825,"text":"他的全職至多可以聘到18人是全職至多聘到18人那費用是怎麼給的他的費用我們做一個統計在2022年這邊的費用他眾議員他的助理的費用我們平均大概是17.9萬"},{"start":822.659,"end":844.007,"text":"那怎麼給的嘛 給助理還是給老闆 給國會議員他那個也是一個 給眾議員一個統籌去分配的那種概念給了這個統籌之後呢可是他要負擔據啦負擔據太好了 要負擔據 除此之外呢我是說美國這邊 美國對我說美國負擔據大概就這樣子 他要負擔據"},{"start":847.219,"end":873.539,"text":"然後如果沒有用完呢公開報表要公開報表太好了附單據公開報表還有呢如果沒有用完呢這邊是因為它是一個給中研統籌的概念好 那我來解釋一下意思就是說你的研究跟我查到資料是一樣的一 所有的國會議員拿到這一大包我剛剛說的每一個人一年拿到多少錢拿到"},{"start":875.04,"end":895.085,"text":"700多萬嘛 按照你們現在的預算表沒有 我說我們台灣啦每一個立法委員如果按照陳玉珍這個提案修法之後我們每一個人會拿到700多萬喔然後呢 這個統包如果用到美國現在的配套一 它要有單據核銷二 相關的單據核銷必須要上網公開透明"},{"start":896.185,"end":920.94,"text":"讓全民可以檢視得以向納稅人報告所以不是你立法委員要怎麼用就怎麼用這個叫做所謂的配套可是在我們台灣立法院可能會有一個荒謬的狀況你聽聽看喔因為之前在提法院直播的時候相關的配套羅志強跟黃國昌就說好你們司法院可以去訂配套結果訂了配套之後他們又不高興又要給人家翻桌又要給人家翻案然後呢又要修法所以連配套他們不滿意都可以修耶立法委員這麼大"},{"start":925.442,"end":936.91,"text":"大道可以提一個自肥的法案 然後相關的配套不滿意 又可以翻桌所以我現在公開呼籲陳玉珍 傅坤祺 請你們停止撤回這樣的法案 最後我要說"},{"start":938.479,"end":954.351,"text":"有人標榜自己是清新的立委有人標榜自己是了不起的立委有一個人叫黃國昌在第十一屆工都盟給予的這個承諾書裡面呢第十一屆立委國會改革承諾書黃國昌很了不起的在政下方簽名"},{"start":955.552,"end":961.853,"text":"其中有一條叫做什麼呢 叫做積極訂定國會助理專法 明定助理地位職責 聘用資格 權力保障等規定杜絕詐領及挪用助理費用 很好 黃國昌你簽名了但很可惜我在黃委員今天的質詢當中沒有聽到他對這件事情的表態甚至今天所有在野黨的委員上台質詢也都沒有對陳昱珍的法案有所表態 我要說非常的遺憾我希望這些委員不要成為幫兇"},{"start":983.817,"end":1009.621,"text":"曾经签过这张公开承诺书的黄国昌也不要忘记了你对国人的承诺对自己的承诺我也希望法治局跟副秘书长你们一定要秉持幕僚的专业跟良心让你们的院长有最好的建议让他有机会去跟陈玉珍 傅坤祺提出撤案跟撤签谢谢好 谢谢陈培宇委"}]}},{"id":"166367","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166367","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b1f54b4de8a18c79aeb5fe7457644078f0b698a3a260b0534e083d1f73e27fc1505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:06:09 - 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謝謝 有請主委有請陳主委"},{"start":16.361,"end":39.129,"text":"好 陳柱瑋好瑋瑜好我想賴總統其實在很多場合裡面都有提到他不反對核電那麼也認為說接下來我們可能要發展的是先進核能技術或是新式的核能技術請問賴總統隨便你所講的不管是新興核能 先進核能或是新式核能技術到底是指什麼"},{"start":44.749,"end":69.626,"text":"小型模组化核电厂是其中之一SMR还有核融核也是另外一个项目现在还有一些MMR微型反应器所以我们现在台湾主要的目标是想要推动什么SMR吗"},{"start":70.697,"end":96.49,"text":"目前我們對於未來是重點會在SMR的研究其實在研究本身要提醒的就是說因為我今天看到你們報告還在那裡講說SMR未來可能幾年都還不可能會有商轉但事實上我不知道主委知不知道其實中國大陸他們大概明年就會有一個小的這個SMR的廠預計會完工商轉"},{"start":98.15,"end":116.997,"text":"2026年那其他国家包含像英国等等最近的新闻也都说他们就开始在建厂在准备往这边做预估也是两三年就可能会完成会进行商转毕竟SM2的它的整个的"},{"start":117.997,"end":136.109,"text":"建制还有它的运作开始运作等等的这些条件比要建这个大型核电厂要相对来说可能容易一些所以就目前核安会这边有没有预估假设我们有厂商愿意要做的话最快几年之内就可以做到"},{"start":139.848,"end":168.616,"text":"報告委員像中國發展的是高溫氣能堆它製造的核廢料是13倍現在的所以這個應該不在我們選擇考量的範圍內那依照目前西方世界SMR的進程應該是4年到5年2030年左右才有真正商品化的產品出來它第一個要安全也要考慮第二個它要模組化所以應該是4到5年2030年左右才會有真實"},{"start":168.996,"end":196.49,"text":"那不管是四到五年或是我讲说可能更快也许明年最快明年可能或者是二三年重要的是说我们现在我们的这个核安会对于SM2的这个基础的定调还有就是说我们相关的法规准备好了吗我们现在的法规有提供足够的法律基础可以让一般的私人厂私人一般的企业自己去兴建SM2吗"},{"start":198.226,"end":215.694,"text":"我們的定業法現在是規定是核電廠業有供應但由主管特許之下可以有例外這是我們現在定業法裡面的所以你的意思是說定業法完全不需要修正只要主管機關特許就可以了嗎"},{"start":218.33,"end":245.218,"text":"跟委員說明那電液法第五條裡面是有寫到如果是私人要提出設置核電廠的話要由那個主管機關就是經濟部這部分要來同意其實不管那核安會的話就是如果要申請就是新的核能SMR這部分的核電廠的話那如果是清水式的"},{"start":246.748,"end":271.274,"text":"核設施那目前的核管法是可以因應適用的但是就剛才提到因為新型的話可能目前還在發展當中所以我們還會持續去關注整個發展的狀態跟法規的動態好 本席想要講的未來推動這SM2可能非常有就是會由台電以外的其他一些公司來進行建置甚至來維運"},{"start":274.255,"end":290.513,"text":"那么所以在法规上面来说以我们现在电业法来讲基本上都是指的是大型的核电厂所以是以供应为原为准嘛那你如果说你说例外还要经过电业管制机关经过核安会还是经过经济部应该可能不是经过核安会而是经过经济部"},{"start":291.434,"end":316.559,"text":"核准设置对这应该不是属于核安会那这个部分会不会也会产生问题而且我们不管在环境评估环境评估相关法规等等是不是应该要赶快要做法治上面的准备甚至你核安会都要提案我不知道主委知不知道我有提电验法的修正案我知道对针对小型的SMR嘛"},{"start":317.973,"end":347.282,"text":"就30萬以下的核能發電業者那麼未來他基本上可能只要經過申請許可經過核安會那邊同意就可以了這樣才能夠鬆綁嘛現在我們就大家希望說未來如果說新建小型的這個核發電廠可以由一般的企業自己他們有能力籌資可以去做這樣就不會一直把負擔都是放在台電的身上這樣方式會不會更好"},{"start":349.262,"end":366.319,"text":"跟委員說明電業法第五條是應該是規範要設置核電廠的經營者核安會的角度就是說如果已經經過經濟部同意之後向核安會申請建廠執照後續的運轉維護管理這部分那就是由核安會"},{"start":367.068,"end":383.11,"text":"那另外環稟這部分就回到那個環境主管機關去是 本期今天其實是要提醒你們的就是說因為看起來現在賴總統的這個方向就是要去推動新興的核能也許就是SMR然後你們自己現在核安會裡面"},{"start":385.412,"end":401.808,"text":"今年提的夏年度的研究计划里面也是编了一亿的计划要去做相关的研究虽然说本市认为说这一亿计划的经费好像过高也就是一些paperwork的一些整理然后你们也没有说实际上要设置一个实验型的小型的SMR"},{"start":402.669,"end":429.008,"text":"的这个炉或什么之类的那为什么要这么多的钱这当然是等到审预算的时候再来说可是呢本席希望说河安会也许在法治作业上面可以加紧速度不要永远都是法律跟在技术的后面如果说我们已经预见到未来台湾可能会朝这方面去做的话不管是韩安的管制的相关法规或是环平等等都要启动嘛不能够说"},{"start":430.256,"end":446.837,"text":"等到事情发生了人家都要见了然后才发现没有法律可以用所以可以请河岸会这里也可以做一个相关的这个研究计划吗就是一个委托研究计划类似把小型SM2所需要的法规评估都做"},{"start":448.732,"end":477.337,"text":"做一些研究或是說你們自己內部也可以做也不見得非得一定要提供一些委託研究計畫我們在明年會規劃外界的委託案學校方面好我希望就除了說是委託研究計畫案之外呢另外你們自己內部也要盡速的把這個不管是大型小型的這個核電廠的所需要的這個法規基礎都能夠先整理出來要stand by隨時要用的時候就可以上手"},{"start":478.197,"end":484.142,"text":"好 但就是今天我想主要就是提醒主委到这个议题好 谢谢谢谢委员"}]}},{"id":"166366","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166366","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b1db5ff001b8f050c2b5fe7457644078f0b698a3a260b0534e62412af60e8a71de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:53:47 - 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謝謝主席有請何主委請陳主委"},{"start":16.909,"end":35.763,"text":"好 曾主委您好委員好主委我一直很關心河島這個河廢水啊 排放的一個事情多次的跟您做這樣子的一個諮詢詢問那對於河岸會的赴日查查都很關注我們在這一次呢我有之前對於你這個大雄分析研究中心"},{"start":36.223,"end":65.783,"text":"做第三方的檢測單位沒有拿到iOS的一個事情也都特別的關注在這邊質疑但是我為掌握日本的排放源頭現況我想 河岸會也很積極的在10月13到18日有進行第六次的赴日實地的一個審查那我想有去做這樣子的一個觀察請問這一次赴日觀察具體參訪的哪些地點跟設施可不可以跟我們分享一下重點有哪些見了誰交換了什麼意見"},{"start":66.643,"end":90.36,"text":"重点是参观福岛第一核电厂还有福岛厨房中间储存设施以及JAEA大型分析研究中心以及掌握第一核电厨艺作业的安全管制状况他见了哪些人我本人还有好几位会的同仁去参观"},{"start":91.36,"end":106.425,"text":"不是 我是說你見了哪些人不是說見了你日本管制機關的人長官我們都見過所以交換了哪些具體的意見還是你們只是去聽聽簡報而已"},{"start":109.245,"end":134.233,"text":"我們對他的整個除污過程以及除疫的過程還有我們都有詳細的了解此外我們還特地去海邊採取海水的樣品回來台灣做檢測對 不好意思我是說你們有沒有交換了什麼意見得到什麼樣的資訊還是只是單純你去聽簡報當然聽簡報也會了解"},{"start":139.141,"end":150.494,"text":"包括像人才培育 資訊溝通等等我們都有很充分的溝通他們碰到問題在哪裡我們碰到問題在哪裡我們都有很好的溝通"},{"start":152,"end":170.325,"text":"主委我想你回話的時候呢可以再更有自信啦因為這樣子我想全國人民都在看我們的直播我們在這個詢問的過程當中我想有一點點支支吾吾的感覺都會讓人家覺得說到底我們花了這些錢花了這些考察那到底我們去得到了些什麼"},{"start":170.905,"end":188.132,"text":"我就實際問你我不刁難你啦或許在打詢的過程當中您不一定是可以很暢所欲言但是我想內容有沒有很實際的讓全國人民能夠來審查我想第六次的復日實地的考察完整報告什麼時候會放在網路上"},{"start":192.095,"end":215.184,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在初稿已經完成那我們預計大概在這個一個月之內就可以放到網路一個月之內是主委可以承諾一個月之內可以嗎沒有問題我們再來看實際的考察具體的內容讓全國人民來看一下另外第二個跟你請問河山重啟的案件經濟部11月28號宣布"},{"start":216.084,"end":239.674,"text":"已通過台電提交的這個相關核電廠的現況評估報告並確認核二核三有可以再啟動的一個潛力台電預告將於2026年3月我想這個大家都知道今天都談了一整天了大家都很關心那核安會準備好了嗎準備接他的這個相關的評估報告來啟動核安會的程序了嗎"},{"start":240.922,"end":266.914,"text":"可能會一直職責就一定會接受這個報告我當然知道你一定會接受你準備好了我想12月初經濟部龔明星部長在答詢的時候有指稱國際案例啦都在講國際案例就像你剛剛講的卓榮泰院長可能也是用國際案例去做評估審查約一年半最順利的情況是在2028年可能重啟剛剛你說2028的年終嘛對不對"},{"start":270.692,"end":297.389,"text":"下半年下半年好啦 年終跟下半年啦好 在這一波的對外溝通中我想 核安會是最重要的一個審查機關但是呢 好像只要我們的政府啊 照程序來走就一定會通過整個社會的氛圍就好像是2028一定會重啟啊諸位 你認同經濟部對外表示最順利的情況2028就一定會重啟的說法嗎"},{"start":300.694,"end":304.886,"text":"我們核安會一定會嚴格把關我當然知道你會嚴格啊"},{"start":305.87,"end":334.228,"text":"時程上我們很難給一個確定的日期但我認為經濟部還有現在卓榮泰院長用所謂的國際慣例來做一個評估對外去做一個宣言如果台電的報告做得很完整我們的審查意見他很快能夠回覆現場的設施管理得很好等等先決條件之下那可能就很順利我認為不妥啦"},{"start":334.448,"end":357.78,"text":"因為核安會是最重要的審查機關沒有去會同你們的意見就對外不斷的放聲好像讓整個社會氛圍都知道2028一定會重啟我覺得這個是不夠謹慎我覺得核安最重要的是什麼安全至上這才是國人期待的那現在我們針對整個核二核三的再運轉計畫我們看到10日"},{"start":362.086,"end":380.279,"text":"環境部彭啟明部長表態了直接點名和安會他說核電重啟一環評法規定確實無需環評但希望和安會擔負更多的責任環境部也會從環境的角度督促和安會做相關的環境保護的因素納入審查"},{"start":381.4,"end":408.929,"text":"主委 一个部会的首长直接公开点名另外一个部会要他多负点责任还说要督促核安会来做相关环境保护的因素纳入审查我们看到这种行为在整个我们的体系行政体系来说很罕见主委 有没有要回应一下我觉得环境保护本来就是核安会很重要的责任"},{"start":410.726,"end":425.733,"text":"辐射对环境影响评估,这是河安会必须负起的责任,也是唯一要负起的单位。其他方面的环境影响,我们会和环境部做沟通协调。"},{"start":427.277,"end":444.456,"text":"彭部長提出意見我們當然是很感謝他的意見我相信你一定會做就你自己的工作去百分百的努力但是很罕見的竟然會被點名那我想會不會彭啟民部長的這個發言會影響到河安會的這個獨立性"},{"start":446.328,"end":466.392,"text":"我覺得還好啦我沒有這個感覺啦我想彭啟明部長更直言核電的重啟關鍵是核廢料的處理跟核安的檢查這也是核安必須直接面對的問題我想對於彭部長現在所談的核廢料處理跟核安的檢查核安會的因應對策是什麼"},{"start":470.128,"end":478.228,"text":"跟委員說明那有關於核安這部分我們就是比照國際的做法就是美國的做法來進行一些安全的評估"},{"start":478.806,"end":506.173,"text":"那至於核廢料這部分我們還是要參考國際的做法現階段就是要進行乾燥設施的興建跟乾燥來處理那後續就是最終處置的話就是目前經濟部有專案的辦公室來推動最終處置這部分好 那剛剛您所說的不管是我們現在所面臨到核廢料的處理跟核安的檢查那請問一下你覺得環境部在這個過程中它可以扮演什麼角色你們怎麼合作"},{"start":510.615,"end":511.796,"text":"我看你們再協調一下好了難得你被點名"},{"start":535.969,"end":559.058,"text":"這個部分我是覺得很詫異啊怎麼會由他來督促你們啊這本來就是你應該核安核廢料就是你要做的啊我想倡議核綠共存的這一個核碩董事長啊童子賢也最近有表示啊台灣在經濟發展同時需要能源但台灣不生產能源因此能源的選項顯得非常重要有人說台灣地球人俠"},{"start":559.918,"end":579.819,"text":"不適合核能但他認為不妨參考比利時跟瑞士對能源的一個選擇歐盟就以實際的行動實現了核綠共存核綠共存可以在支持台灣經濟發展和民生需求的電力同時也改善空汙的一個影響諸位你支不支持核綠共存"},{"start":582.382,"end":599.748,"text":"核安會的職責就是保證核電能夠安全運轉我知道 這個我都知道你講的已經三次了至於核能源的政策或能源配比的問題這個不在核安會管制之下"},{"start":600.989,"end":618.7,"text":"這應該我們可以尊重經濟部的意見好 謝謝 我也不再多做逼問了最後一分鐘 拜託一下 趙偉主委 我昨天 外環委員會排審身心障礙者權益保障法條文修正草案"},{"start":619.62,"end":638.74,"text":"有幾個問題跟你就教一下也安排了身心障礙者權益保障的專案報告我們看到身心障礙者的權益保障法有規定各級目的事業主管機關辦理公共資訊無障礙的一個服務的時候要協助身心障礙者來參與"},{"start":641.533,"end":660.462,"text":"主委 河岸會有一個APP叫河岸一點通 對吧要換你了啦 剛剛只是前言而已這個APP作為民眾了解河能安全緊急應變資訊的重要管道請問其公共資訊無障礙化的具體辦理進度如何"},{"start":663.308,"end":682.789,"text":"謝謝委員跟委員報告那我們也是遵照速發部推動的普及與深化政府網站與行動化應用軟體無障礙設計行動方案來辦理然後依照我們原來的這個排程我們會預計在115年年底前會完成整個無障礙的送檢"},{"start":683.61,"end":699.556,"text":"那目前我們在明年的預算以及時程規劃上都已經做好準備以上我想速度要快這今天在這邊點一下身心障礙者數位參與是所謂的法律明文保障剛剛葉委員就在講我們的這個核安全島"},{"start":702.897,"end":727.194,"text":"身心障礙者也有權利去參與到這一些啊但是他們在這個河岸一點通裡面就沒辦法去點閱甚至沒有無障礙的這個APP對他們來說這就是一個資訊的剝奪嘛所以主委今天我在這邊提出也希望督促你們應該就你們的APP來做一個有效率的趕緊趕上 可以嗎可以 謝謝委員的意見好 謝謝好 謝謝羅廷維委員"}]}},{"id":"166364","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166364","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b1b75ec7f525852098b5fe7457644078f06cb862312e5c4d1f336af6a97fec288a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:30:06 - 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有請主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":17.669,"end":39.309,"text":"主委好 委員好今年5月核管法修法之後我們有看到新聞就是台電會把再運轉計畫預計是明年的3月就會提送給你們核安會那麼我們也看到你們特別提到核一廠大概"},{"start":40.461,"end":49.343,"text":"就是除以了啦雖然要40加20但是停機已經多年但是你們評估合二合三是OK的"},{"start":50.663,"end":77.831,"text":"那麼核二的部分他要先移除反應爐內的燃料燃料池進空之後才提報那核三的話因為是剛停機所以你們覺得設備是維持良好的有再運轉的一個可能性好 那現在我也看到一個新聞就是彭啟明這個環境部的部長"},{"start":79.071,"end":97.546,"text":"他聽到台電會把再運轉計畫送到河安會他希望河安會要去做環評將環保納入考量先請教一下主委你的意見如何河安會的職責是確保河電的安全"},{"start":99.72,"end":112.166,"text":"輻射對環境影響的評估就是核安會責任核安會這方面也會負起完全的責任保證所以你們會啟動環評會啟動環評保證會對這方面做好環境的評估其他方面的議題我們會和環境部來協商討論"},{"start":127.453,"end":131.913,"text":"好 那您看看就是這個換發執照的程序"},{"start":133.689,"end":161.65,"text":"整體性老化評估及老化管理報告實現老化分析報告相關中期安全分析報告運轉技術規範增修內容輻射相關液體查核評估報告耐震安全評估說明其他經主管機關指定文件所以我不太了解 諸位您剛剛說您非常支持一定會納入去做環境的評估那不曉得是在哪一個部分"},{"start":163.392,"end":187.833,"text":"輻射相關議題的評估報告就會包括對環境的影響環境影響評估報告就是我們核安會的職權所以您說第四項輻射相關議題查核評估報告這個就是環境評估報告對 輻射對環境影響評估就是我們核安會的責任所以您只做輻射環評的這個部分你只負責輻射單項"},{"start":190.055,"end":210.098,"text":"其他的議題是交給台電嗎其他的議題我們會跟環境部來討論好 謝謝因為我們在礦業法修法的時候當時我們也做了一件事情因為以前是他們說你的祖先同意我挖"},{"start":211.414,"end":237.876,"text":"就表示他永遠可以挖 沒有這回事嘛所以我們礦業法修法之後如果你要研你也必須要做部落諮商同意那現在一樣當年也沒有環評所以也沒做過可是現在既然要研議我想這個部分 主委你剛剛的態度我們也聽到了 你是很支持的你覺得該做 而且你們也會做 對不對"},{"start":238.8,"end":252.639,"text":"我們對環境服飾方面我們會做的好那謝謝喔那現在我就是要請教另外一個問題喔就是你們有沒有將在地居民的意願納入審查評估的項目裡面我沒看到"},{"start":258.494,"end":274.176,"text":"跟委員說明那個運轉執照申請的審核辦法相關的技術文件所必須要審查的要項我們都是參考美國的做法然後拉進來我們有自己中華民國的法律延續法都有結果你參照美國"},{"start":276.069,"end":299.262,"text":"跟委員報告說明那換照主要的精神是在確認說機組的設備在未來的繼續運轉期間能夠完全運轉不是只有礦業法啦現在所有的再生能源每一個都會踐行只要是公有地傳統領域都要遵照原基法踐行部落諮商同意"},{"start":300.843,"end":309.764,"text":"這個是其他的部會都已經在做的事情所以我想這個部分因為我沒有看到那我想請教一下主委 這個怎麼辦"},{"start":317.23,"end":339.375,"text":"好沒有關係我希望你們就是要去找園民會來討論一下那我希望這個部分我等一下最後的時候我再做一個比較清楚的訴求的要求那另外我想要請教一下因為我看到行政院的國家永續發展委員會下有一個非核家園的小組"},{"start":340.595,"end":354.36,"text":"那麼他最後一次開會是110年的4月已經滿久了所以我想要請教一下主委這個行政院的非核家園推動小組他好像已經沒有再開會"},{"start":355.64,"end":374.404,"text":"也沒有積極的督促經濟部或台電針對低階核廢的最終處置或者是高階核廢的一個處理的嚴厲的立法所以我只想請教我們核安會的主委你覺得這個非核家園小組還有沒有存在的必要"},{"start":381.457,"end":396.741,"text":"這應該請行政院來回覆沒有啊 我只是請教您啊你是要推動核的啊我只是問說那個推動非核的你覺得他們那個小組還有存在的必要嗎"},{"start":398.823,"end":410.488,"text":"因為核安會執掌只是核安管制方面的工作我當然知道啊所以我只是請教你你覺得它有沒有存在的必要反正你們已經也要提報再運轉計畫了"},{"start":415.775,"end":427.844,"text":"報告委員,這個飛蛾家園的專案小組,其實是行政永續會所成立的,當年成立這個有它的目的,"},{"start":431.627,"end":460.132,"text":"目前是開會開到第六次那為了進一步來探討核後端相關議題那核安會我們在今年的四月十號有去見請發函非核小組來希望他們能夠來推動第七次那你那個公文給我辦公室好不好我們促請非核小組來開的公文因為我們大家都很納悶啊還要不要推非核家園啊是不是我們有發過這個文"},{"start":461.192,"end":485.214,"text":"好來那下一個部分我也想再請教就是我們看到新聞日本福島第一核電廠它要進行第17次排放寒川廢水那核安會這邊的報告也看到了你們的儀表板都是不合格件數0000也就是都很合格"},{"start":486.275,"end":504.098,"text":"但是我想請教一下因為你們的採樣是色跟川但是核種類很多啊例如什麼呢碳14啊.129啊請教一下主委這一些你們沒有在檢測嗎"},{"start":507.248,"end":533.135,"text":"跟委員報告碳14我們在113年已經研發完成今年我們就按照新的方法在檢測所以第18次排放的時候我們會看到碳14就對了不是 我們目前對碳14的檢測魚類的檢測目前看起來都跟國際的但是我們沒有看到你們儀表板有啊"},{"start":535.592,"end":560.411,"text":"很多人也想看到碳14啊 點129啊好 那我們回去來檢討一下好 我們希望下次看到好不好是因為這個不重要 這個核種不重要沒有安全疑慮還是因為我們的技術 檢測技術沒有達到我們的技術是沒有問題 那因為目前我們那技術沒有問題我就安心啦"},{"start":562.196,"end":590.766,"text":"主要是我們目前監測的核種是以川跟色為主但是很多人不這麼想啊核的種類那麼多為什麼每次看到你們就檢測這個川所以大家有疑慮啊所以我才來問啊那既然檢測技術沒問題下次就給我們好不好所以我剛剛以上所提的就是希望說兩個月內可以找原民會或者找衛福部環境部 國科會 中研院就是"},{"start":592.427,"end":611.042,"text":"針對這一些到底要不要做部落諮商同意要不要做環評怎麼做還有這些川以外的何種到底它對人體的危害的風險還有控管標準能夠提出一個報告可以嗎 主委好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝伍麗華委員"}]}},{"id":"166363","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166363","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b14e984c04c531e433feb4e86bf6119d126cb862312e5c4d1f232082a5edcaf1125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:21:19 - 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对不对大声的说有没有包括100个到100个都是一个到100个都是若干人嘛他是一个抽象的法律概念对 一个抽象法律概念一个到100个都是所以这样的修法立法委员可以拼多少他可以拼100个助理啊200个助理啊若干人嘛"},{"start":294.23,"end":314.601,"text":"可是這個助理是不是便當助理 是不是要他支付費用 沒有寫啊沒有寫耶 他責治助理多少人然後呢 有委員聘用 要不要付錢 也沒寫然後呢 原條文是寫說 治公費助理8到14人很清楚這些助理是領誰的錢 公費助理領誰的錢是不是領你的錢 是領國家的錢對不對"},{"start":318.246,"end":341.611,"text":"是領國家的錢 立法院的預算對不對現在你們這樣改成助理若干人這個助理由委員聘用需不需要領公立法院的預算這個不是我們改的啦我不是問你嘛 我說改了之後會怎麼樣嘛這個公會助理要問人事處不是啦 你是法治局嘛 如果條文這樣寫助理若干人由委員聘用他的薪水會不會是立法院付"},{"start":343.852,"end":364.194,"text":"會不會是立法院務有嗎 有寫嗎他是補助各委員立法院預算編給委員假如說沒有公費助理了要新的修正條文寫委員聘用助理沒有寫是公費那立委這些助理跟誰領錢沒有規定"},{"start":366.636,"end":394.113,"text":"立法院編的預算是給誰 給委員 寫得明明白白嘛所以這些人員到底是親朋好友 黑道還是境外勢力他有沒有遵守勞基法 你們也管不到 對不對 聘用助理你們現在的公費助理 立法院是不是雇主針對委員聘哪些助理 我們目前當然也沒辦法管啦不是 他 聘用權在他啦 你們報上來 有沒有有沒有個資 有沒有身份證明"},{"start":395.293,"end":414.438,"text":"有沒有勞健保你們不審核你們有沒有這個資料我現在沒有問你人事資料是你問的啦我沒有問你這個啦我是問你說若干人委員聘用立法院要付錢條文這樣寫你是法治局局長啊知不知道我是問你法治局的問題啊下一頁"},{"start":416.241,"end":445.536,"text":"來我們看一下補助四方化就是這樣子免減拒核銷而且不限助理費用請問一下法治條文這樣寫不限助理費用立法院補助給委員聘助理的費用統籌運用他寫不限於耶不限於是不是可以用在別的地方可不可以用來養小三可不可以用來買豪車法律條文這樣寫法治局可不可以這樣做有沒有規定不可以講不出來嘛"},{"start":448.672,"end":471.971,"text":"所以往下看所以原來我們的公費助理有一個任用法的草案他說 遴選資訊介入訓練規定都要寫 要自公費助理名冊我先問 來 人事處黃處長目前公費助理有沒有名冊有沒有名冊在你那裡有啊 那委員送過來了非公費助理有沒有名冊"},{"start":473.206,"end":501.956,"text":"沒有名冊 之前陳玉珍說找了一個人跑來我們立法院我們說這個是媒體啊他有沒有記者證 一查他好像登記媒體喔可是他又出在現媒體部應該出現的地方陳玉珍說那是他聘的助理你知道這件事情嗎媒體上有看過好 那你知道那個人是不是陳玉珍的助理我們那邊的資料沒有你們的資料沒有 對好 請回我們 來 所以來 郭局長再請教你"},{"start":504.676,"end":526.721,"text":"所以今天你認為公費助理任用法草案是否比較有效的可以建立助理的制度你認為有沒有比較有效我們都尊重委員的我問你嘛 你法治局是不是訂一個專法內容可以再修改 可以再精進訂一個專法有沒有對公費助理的制度比較有一個法律的保障基本上要從"},{"start":528.191,"end":548.742,"text":"立法院組織法來改還是我沒有問你立法院組織法我只問說為了公衛助理的制度化我們訂一個任用專法你知不支持你知不支持我都尊重委員的提案我先問你局長嘛你是法治局嘛你知不支持我們公衛助理制度化你認為一個任用專法比較有保障你認不認同"},{"start":550.151,"end":574.123,"text":"不然我要說你不認同喔基本上我都尊重我們各個委員的提案一直跳針要保障公衛制度你法治局長如果敢說訂專法沒有幫助你講講看有沒有幫助我們尊重委員的提案你看一直跳針尊重委員你哪一個案子不是尊重委員提案法治局的報告是不是你提的法治局這個什麼報告"},{"start":574.844,"end":594.731,"text":"好 那不管了 往下好 所以告訴你們 來那個我們法制司司長根據憲法499如果目前的修改立法院組織法讓委員可以增加可支配的統籌運用的費用這算不算對委員本身的權益是增加的"},{"start":596.124,"end":609.081,"text":"我不是 我先問你 我剛剛講的話如果修了組織法讓立法委員統籌運用的經費多了七八百萬這樣的法案的修法的實質結果是不是造成委員本身的權益的增加"},{"start":611.394,"end":637.074,"text":"我們應該是從法條跟他的修法理由來觀看那如同我們法務部的書面報告中針對這部分有做說明法條雖然只寫補助但是他在修法理由中有寫成實質薪資的一部分那針對這個部分的話我們也有提及就是應該要參酌司法院44499號解釋文的意旨做這方面的一個迴避的一個規定這樣子"},{"start":638.171,"end":651.141,"text":"好 迴避是說如果通過了也是下屆試用嘛是的 好是不是下屆試用好 來法治師是這樣說下屆試用好那他這個修法呢不是只是自肥啊他還要脫罪啊"},{"start":652.219,"end":669.065,"text":"是不是 他還想要脫罪嘛請問一下目前紀署法院審理或偵辦中如果之前因為原來的立法院組織法立委涉及侵占助理的薪資被現在調查起訴或審理中的"},{"start":670.185,"end":681.121,"text":"立法院組織法做了這樣修改之後是不是他們之前修法前所為的這些侵占助理費的罪行就可以因此而免除追究有沒有這個效果"},{"start":682.765,"end":698.149,"text":"委員所詢問的主要應該是針對刑法第二條跟貪污自罪條例不是貪污自罪條例而是刑法第二條有關於行為後法律有變動那是不是可以從有利於行為人的解釋有沒有產生那個效果結論很簡單來講是沒有沒有 好因為這個不是貪污自罪條例構成要求的概念"},{"start":704.311,"end":719.264,"text":"這樣的行為就算是修法後被認為不是去侵占就是說這個行為已經是他實質心智一部分了但是修法後的法是往後生效不會去改變他當時所行為時候的行為性質 是不是這樣"},{"start":720.424,"end":745.854,"text":"就我剛才講刑法第二條的行為後法律有變動那個法律在目前實務見解最高法院見解是認為現行法法律也就是構成要件的那這個組織法的修改改變了助理會成為立委的實質薪酬會不會改變他們之前基於貪污的目的意圖去侵占立委的薪資這樣的行為可以免除後來刑法或者說貪污治罪條例的追訴"},{"start":747.238,"end":769.355,"text":"簡單的講就是說貪污治罪條例的構成要件並沒有改變那即便立法院組織法有變更了以後那是一個構成要件前提事實的變更這不會適用到刑法第二條也不會產生剛剛講的那個改變的效果好 謝謝今天我們可以做結論了 往下看所以啊不管是處心積慮的要擺脫我們審計主計的規範想要免檢據核銷就是想要污錢"},{"start":775.598,"end":803.446,"text":"而且呢還在立法說明說這是實質薪資的一部分而且呢也造成了立法委員僱用的助理不受到立法院的監督包括他的身份資格的查核最後我們看一下所以請法治局針對助理費統籌運用是否違憲提出法規應驗書法治局局長郭局長你可以做嗎你是法治局喔"},{"start":804.386,"end":811.383,"text":"我們寫要求助理費統籌運用 有無違憲就是違反499 你們提出個法律見解 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麻煩請主委好 我請陳主委主委好首先我覺得今天剛剛很多委員包括民進黨委員在內我非常"},{"start":37.932,"end":59.94,"text":"肯定大家終於能夠就事論事來討論核電是否延誼的問題我記得今年初那時候我們要通過核管法的時候當時只是希望讓核電廠有延誼的機會那至於說核電廠到底能不能延誼當然就必須經過大家的討論跟核安會對核安的確認"},{"start":61.414,"end":89.921,"text":"可是在修核安法的時候呢民進黨的立委通通亂罵一通像那個范雲他說核電重啟會有國安風險會造成經濟成本越來越高我也不知道他在講什麼一個張雅玲立委更扯他說核電廠如果研議就是要為中國攻台開方便之門這個已經抹紅抹到我不知道他在講什麼了如果按照這樣說法的話童子賢"},{"start":91.441,"end":106.057,"text":"總統府的這個顧問前兩天才獲中華民國核能學會頒發特殊奉獻獎就是因為他多次倡議核電對經濟發展以及台灣的重要性難不成童子賢也是在幫中共開後門"},{"start":107.441,"end":136.215,"text":"所以難得今天大家在討論這件事情的時候都能夠就事論事而不是只要講到核電就一堆口水讓大家實在是很難討論下去所以今天我還是要表達一下對於今天整個過程是感覺到非常欣慰民進黨的人忠於理性不會動不動就抹紅那以下就就幾件事情跟主委請教一下第一個有關於剛剛大家也有提到"},{"start":137.745,"end":160,"text":"很多人在講說核電廠到底要不要環評那這個問題應該是問環境部但環境部就推給核安會就說這個就叫核安會來政策環評那我先表達我的立場我覺得本來核安會就會做這個事情根本不需要環境部叫你們做這個事沒錯吧你本身就會針對這個"},{"start":163.76,"end":192.409,"text":"相關的 譬如說地質的問題啊 河岸的問題你會做評估嘛對 輻射輻射嘛 對不對所以我不太知道彭啟明在指導你們是要你們做什麼你知道他的意思嗎這是他意見嘛你知道他的意見是什麼嗎 他要你幹嘛他有跟我們溝通嘛他要你幹嘛嘛我們兩個單位之間一直有溝通啊不是啦 他叫你幹嘛嘛主委 我意見溝通內容是什麼嘛"},{"start":193.926,"end":200.576,"text":"問A答B好不好這個問題有那麼難回答嗎他要你幹什麼我知道他要你幹什麼他是希望指導你要你幹什麼"},{"start":202.023,"end":223.36,"text":"我們核安會對輻射對環境影響評估他要你做輻射對環境影響評估本來就是我們的核安會你本來沒有要做嗎本來就是這是我的對啊 那個給講喔這環境部長給講講這要幹嘛所以有要做環評嗎除了他講的叫你做要做一般的那個環評法裡面的環評沒有嘛"},{"start":224.801,"end":237.088,"text":"他好像不是這個意思不是這個意思嘛其他的環境議題因為為什麼會這樣問因為很多人都覺得說彭其民講這個話很奇怪啦然後也不要逢何必反啦"},{"start":238.448,"end":260.277,"text":"就像很多人也提到啊,像興達電廠研議,興達電廠這跟你無關啦興達電廠是火力發電廠,研議是說研就研啊沒有看到任何人出來講說要叫他去做環評啊,政策環評啊,我聽都沒聽過只有對核電要做政策環評,這就是故意讓人家難免會覺得在卡希望核電廠的研議時程延後啊"},{"start":261.465,"end":286.672,"text":"所以這個經由主委的嘴巴上證實他講有講沒講其實是沒有任何意義啦我們不要這種做無謂的這種發言我是說環境部啦導致大家又認為說你們是不是在卡那我就不懂為什麼卓院長宣誓說2028最快可以重啟研議我就不懂了院長說要研議然後部長一直讓人家感覺在卡"},{"start":287.489,"end":314.586,"text":"那我來問一下時程啦因為卓院長是已經定一個目標啦說最快2028但實際上我們都知道他的程序大概有幾個嘛第一個台電是說明年三月經濟部已經核定了台電的計畫了嘛明年三月會送到河岸會對吧那卓院長講說大概要經過一年到一年半的審查對吧所以這樣子就到了大概最快就到2027年可能三月"},{"start":315.595,"end":343.016,"text":"核安會就可以核定這個再運轉的計畫沒錯吧我說最快開始審查對不對 最快嘛因為明年三月就送了嘛卓院長說要花大概一年到一年半我們看上一頁他講的一年半到兩年啦所以最快的話就是2027年的大概九月份2027九月份就可以審查完畢最快啦這個是卓院長定的目標啦2027的九月嘛然後再來"},{"start":344.178,"end":371.383,"text":"在運轉計劃核定之後經營者應該要依計劃執行執行完然後提執行結果報告然後主管機關再根據申請的檢附的文件再預核定換發運轉執照使得莊田核子燃料那這個部分需要多久16條之二規定的這個部分需要多久審查的期限很難給個大概"},{"start":372.921,"end":392.783,"text":"就大概 因為誤差也可能滿多的不是啦 你這樣子講 那卓院長怎麼講得出2028這個數字那當然是理想狀況是這樣子理想狀況2028所以最快嘛那最理想狀況最理想狀況是2028應該是最快怎麼感覺好像卓院長比你還熟啊"},{"start":394.602,"end":411.003,"text":"怎麼卓院長都講得出一個目標然後你怎麼都講不出來主委你來這邊好像沒有很認真回答問題耶我剛剛已經幫你算了嘛你明年3月收到這個計畫卓院長說要花一年半到兩年所以最快就是2027年的9月"},{"start":412.935,"end":424.843,"text":"那2020年9月現在根據16條之二這個再運轉計畫核定之後它依計畫執行然後再提出執行結果報告然後換發運轉執照這個過程要多久我只問的問題這麼簡單大概多久"},{"start":429.628,"end":446.835,"text":"最快跟委員說明喔那除了再運轉計畫是明年3月台電公司會提出來那主要目的是要將電廠的設備恢復回來那另外還要根據16條16條是換照的一些安全我現在就在講16條16條這是16條之二還有一個16條16條就是台電公司"},{"start":453.758,"end":469.274,"text":"說明需要1.5年到2年時間會去完成那個老化評估這部分16條所以按照時程算出來就是2027年的6月或9月期間台電公司才會把16條的安全評估報告送到會裡面來審查"},{"start":470.987,"end":495.374,"text":"你再講一次 2027的幾月大概 如果照算的話2027的6月或2027的9月期間2027 6月或9月我們抓快一點了說2027 6月嘛那送來審查你們要審多久那就是按照國際的經驗就是如果文件完備然後現場設備也都OK那理想狀況應該是在2028年左右2028的什麼時候初 中 末"},{"start":498.169,"end":523.261,"text":"下半年比較有可能2028年下半年比較有可能2028年下半年比較有可能研議這是最理想的狀況你們也是這樣子建議卓榮泰院長嗎你沒建議他 那他自己碰到的中間的變數很多那他怎麼會講出2028這個數字嘛不是你們建議的所以我們行政院除了核安會之外還有另外一個有關核電研議審查的幕僚單位喔"},{"start":527.056,"end":528.729,"text":"這個"},{"start":533.35,"end":557.565,"text":"因為我們審查才知道哪些地方需要改善還有我們審查意見呢台電回復的速度等等不用一直歸打牆跳針我的意思是說卓院長講2028這件事情是你們跟他有分析過嗎還是你剛剛說卓院長說沒有嘛那他為什麼有這個數字"},{"start":561.185,"end":578.119,"text":"因為審查是在你們這邊嘛所以他這個數字是這是你們跟他講的不是你們沒有講所以他是從別人的那邊得到這個2028可能可以他自己根據經驗就對了"},{"start":581.053,"end":603.538,"text":"2028因為剛剛跟另外一位說的時間一樣嘛2028末嘛就是台電公司跟經濟部他們是參考國際的經驗來推所以是台電跟經濟部跟他講的推估時程好那再來既然連院長都已經宣誓要重啟了我提醒一件事情第一個"},{"start":605.69,"end":618.738,"text":"因為我們現在這個社會還有很多人對於核電有莫名的恐懼希望你們可以加強宣導我有去看你們的YouTube其實那個點閱率都很低還有影片是沒有點閱的這滿難想像的"},{"start":620.859,"end":641.978,"text":"那當然你們可能會講說宣傳預算有限啊什麼之類可是我覺得這不是藉口因為實際上你搭配社會上面熱門話題啊或是根據大家討論的事情去做出回應也可以達到宣傳作用我舉個例子來講像之前有一個民進黨的青岩才俊民進黨台北市的重要幹部他跑到蘭嶼的"},{"start":643.7,"end":671.151,"text":"低階核廢料的儲存場去放水放了一個晚上之後他覺得那個水很可怕被汙染然後就要求國民黨人去喝結果國民黨的人比較有核能知識就一飲而盡就那個人還嚇一跳講說怎麼可能原來可以喝就是連執政黨的青年才俊重點培養對象都對核能有那麼錯誤的認知代表核安會根本沒有在宣導那個我先問主委"},{"start":672.191,"end":700.288,"text":"請問一下把礦泉水放到蘭嶼的第一階核廢料儲存場放一個晚上那個水就不能喝了嗎就會嚴重的輻射污染嗎如果那個瓶子封閉得很好的話應該還好啦如果怎麼樣封閉密封得很好那你那到底封閉得好不好蘭嶼的那個第一階核廢料儲存場封閉得好不好目前來說我們是放心的你放心嘛可是民進黨不知道啊"},{"start":701.38,"end":723.45,"text":"民進黨不知道啊你有沒有覺得很誇張就連執政黨都不知道耶所以像這種這麼誇張的事情你們和安會出來解釋說社會大眾不要亂特別是執政黨好不好這種不要故意製造恐懼你的點閱率一定很高啦絕對很高啦但你們不做你們不做"},{"start":724.537,"end":751.347,"text":"所以我是提醒啦 既然我們現在已經朝向要延逸重啟的方向宣傳就很重要因為到時候類似民進黨青年才俊幹的這種事情應該會層出不窮啊希望你們利用這個機會多做宣導 好不好可以嗎不是謝謝我的意見啦 可不可以啦我是要求這樣子做啦因為到時候一定會遇到類似的那不然大家都每天要強迫別人喝水啊"},{"start":752.803,"end":770.568,"text":"這是我們一直在做的事情你就做不好啊你那時候有去跟那個民進黨的那個青年財軍說不給那個水沒問題你有做這事嗎我們會繼續努力我們繼續努力不要說空話啦這個要做啦要做啦不要講到執政黨你就不敢講了好不好謝謝謝謝韋恩好"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}