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厂商资格为掌握市场供应情形需求单位军备局第205厂于采购前办理公开征求国内商员结果确认国内厂商仍无火药原物料产制能量需以进口现货供应考量以往火药类购案投标厂商资格之一致性"},{"start":2359.508,"end":2371.558,"text":"依循往例定定合法设立或登记证明营业项目国际贸易业及纳税证明等三项资格并确保厂商具有进口货品供应的能力关五二"},{"start":2372.389,"end":2385.922,"text":"押標金及履約保證金的制度為確保投標廠商具誠信參標防止惡意欺標等影響採購公正行為招標文件要求廠商投標時應繳交預算金額3%新台幣"},{"start":2390.666,"end":2417.38,"text":"2474万元之押标金担保以保障合约如期签订并应于绝标次日起18日内缴交履约保证金也就是预算金额5%为新台币4123万元以督促其依约执行3.厂商资格的审认做法1.本案资格审认系一招标文件所列之厂商资格条件逐项审查"},{"start":2418.85,"end":2439.101,"text":"確認合法及完整性作為判定合格之依據具體做法摘述如下一逐項比對投標文件是否符合招標資格二確認證明文件真實性有效性及相符性三必要時得向相關機關反下查證"},{"start":2440.558,"end":2468.154,"text":"另外杜絕紅色供應鏈確保國家安全招標文件均律定不允許大陸地區廠商第三地區含陸資成分廠商及在台陸資廠商參與投標刮無四對廠商履約之管制作為為確保廠商誠信履約交貨品質無虞對廠商履約之管制作為說明如後一廠商應於絕標次日起180個日曆天"},{"start":2470.215,"end":2487.129,"text":"取得外国政府或其授权机构合法之输出许可证明令案内标的属限制性货品输入管制品项并因依经济部定班货品输入管理办法规定获得进口同意的文件二"},{"start":2488.29,"end":2510.683,"text":"廠商交貨應檢附品質保證書產地證明含出廠證明、進口報關單及原廠製造證明文件須經產地法院或公證人公證並由需求單位軍備局第205廠會同廠商辦理文件的查驗必要時實施反向查證確認文件的真實性三"},{"start":2511.684,"end":2521.333,"text":"本案採購品項依道路交通安全規則第84條規定向起運地或車籍所在地公路監理機關申請核發臨時通行證並會同軍備局第205場之人員押運至該場交貨是 交運至第205場後由該場火工專業檢驗人員"},{"start":2537.306,"end":2554.285,"text":"針對廠商交貨標的實施抽樣送交合格檢驗的單位含第三公證單位並依美軍的標準實施物化性的檢驗檢驗合格使得辦理結案付款不合格即辦理退貨由廠商回應原產地"},{"start":2555.086,"end":2573.157,"text":"五本部加強查驗原物料的訂購簽收證明文件等資料後續廠商若預期未繳交文件貨品或檢驗不合格將解除契約並沒收履約保證金及刊登停權等行政處分以維護機關的權益"},{"start":2575.658,"end":2593.798,"text":"三 給予本部持續落實國軍各類火藥原物料購案投標廠商文件的審查並於履約階段強化交貨驗收相關作為確保交貨品質及產地來源無虞善盡維護本部權益之責任報告完畢 敬請指教"},{"start":2600.319,"end":2616.702,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請沈博洋委員上台質詢"},{"start":2628.134,"end":2632.518,"text":"好 謝謝主席那有請部長 謝謝好 請顧部長是 沈偉勇部長 那今天因為其實國防部有一些議題我也想繼續追但是因為今天排的這個議題也是至關重要就是跟這一個火藥 炸藥的原物料的這個進出口的事項所以"},{"start":2654.798,"end":2679.73,"text":"第一個我認為就是說我們對於這個採購的這個流程還有我們要怎麼去做驗收這些事情原本都很重要也很值得在立法院討論但我個人是覺得就是現在因為它是週末出來的這個消息那整個週末其實討論的方向說真的很歪就變成說讓我們民眾接收到的這種跟國防相關的資訊我覺得會有很大的偏差"},{"start":2680.57,"end":2696.198,"text":"因為我知道這個媒體報導就很喜歡講說這家廠商原本可能是做什麼的他怎麼可以去拿這樣的一個標案等等之類的但是第一個我是想說當然很多人會提到過往合成做這個衛浴相關的他也會去拿這些抗蛋板"},{"start":2696.892,"end":2720.17,"text":"那如果大家對這個韓國這個南華集團有一定認知的話他做的是保險做的是百貨公司相關的這些產業但他現在也是重要的韓國的這個K9自走炮的這個出口商還有像這一個我們這一個失華弱勢期嘛大家的認知就是做水晶賣這個水晶做得很漂亮但他同樣的他的集團也有做狙擊槍的這個狙擊鏡"},{"start":2722.071,"end":2737.658,"text":"所以就是說呢目前這種在雙用通用的這個狀況之下現在越來越多這種民間的企業它會加入它會到這一個軍事產業裡面所以如果我們從這個角度切入我會認為說就是我們反而一直在傳遞給民眾一個錯誤的一個國防的常識"},{"start":2741.52,"end":2770.033,"text":"尤其是我們現在要加入飛鴻供應鏈但是不代表這個議題不值得討論就是說在這個議題裡面我個人在看這個議題的時候我反而會覺得說反而是投標的廠商因為今天投標的廠商最後因為第一次是流標嘛 對不對然後第二次最後也就只有他而已所以我反而是想問說為什麼就只有他投就是說其他的人能夠去做這件事情的人照理說在台灣也是大有人在啊"},{"start":2770.453,"end":2797.408,"text":"那他今天你說跟需要取得出口或者進口相關的許可這件事情我覺得應該有很多廠商都有能力做得到那是不是因為他認為說他今天來做這個國家的標案他覺得他吃虧啊他覺得在他的商業利益上不符合啊會有各式各樣的因素那是不是是否可以針對這一點就是說為什麼今天來投標的廠商只有一家這件事情是不是可以做一個簡短的說明"},{"start":2798.22,"end":2813.583,"text":"跟委員報告主要就是因為這個火藥原物料都是各國他們往往要優先滿足自身的需求他會嚴格一個輸出管制的規定所以重點就是在於你要在投標之前"},{"start":2814.644,"end":2842.762,"text":"你應該要有辦法拿得到當地政府的輸出許可的證明文件不然的話你一旦沒有辦法履業你就會面臨非常嚴重的一個後果這個就是我們合約訂定的一個最主要的精神所以他必須要思考好他有沒有履業能力因為他要來投標他就要繳交3%的押標金然後之後得了標之後他要繳交預算金5%的履業保證金"},{"start":2843.533,"end":2855.298,"text":"那這個交貨其實就是一個一翻兩瞪眼的東西也就是說他今天如果拿不到輸出許可證明物件他就沒辦法交貨然後接下來他還要去拿到原廠的證明"},{"start":2856.08,"end":2868.55,"text":"然後等等的這些然後相關文件之後他還要能夠運抵台灣然後運抵台灣之後我要馬上交給我們的專業譬如說我們這一次是軍備局205場那205場就要進行這個檢驗當檢驗過了我們才會付款那如果他檢驗不過"},{"start":2877.679,"end":2894.419,"text":"那他履歷保證也要被沒收他履歷保證沒有說不但被沒收他還要遭受庭權的處分所以他有辦法能夠達到這些相關的當地政府的輸出區域的證明文件才會來有意願"},{"start":2896.344,"end":2919.094,"text":"來進行投標因為他這個時候要思考他有沒有最後有沒有辦法能力履約這個就是現在的一個我們之所以認為不需要去訂定一些其他的資格條件因為他只要能夠從事國際貿易那麼他能夠拿得到當地輸出的許可證明文件拿到原廠的證明然後確保品質安全無虞"},{"start":2920.327,"end":2929.445,"text":"我們這個時候才會付款所以他每個人來投標的時候他都是要先衡量自己有沒有這樣的語言能力"},{"start":2930.39,"end":2953.241,"text":"好 謝謝部長就是說因為這件事情對我來講就是說剛剛整個的流程從他取得相關的證明到他必須要履約等等之類我相信205在做這個驗收的時候一定會非常的嚴格我想說這個都不是什麼問題但是我們是希望就假設我們今天希望我們的國防有更多的這些民間的產業能夠來加入的時候我們希望能夠看到的是更多的廠商來投"},{"start":2954.682,"end":2982.49,"text":"對不對然後更多廠商來投那表示跟委員報告我們為了這個我們去清查了過去20年所有這些關於當然除了軍備局有生產之外國內廠商沒有產能的這些所謂內購外貨的方式也就是去然後我們都按政府採購法來辦理公開招標我們的資格我們要求的資格20年來沒有任何的改變就是"},{"start":2984.244,"end":2995.045,"text":"合法的公司設立登記第二個有納稅的證明第三個他有從事國際貿易業的營業項目就這三個20年來清查了幾十個案子"},{"start":2996.414,"end":3017.623,"text":"沒有任何的改變我們就是要廣增商源讓所有有能力的人都不會因為受到這些門檻而受到不當的限制而事實上他能夠交貨才是整個問題的重點所以我在這裡講我們不能夠劃錯重點我們的重點是我們要能夠讓這個購案能夠執行成功"},{"start":3021.244,"end":3045.933,"text":"好 感謝部長就是我剛剛也提到就是說重點就是最後能不能履約它如果不能夠履約的話它也會相關它的牙標件會不會沒收等等之類的話它會有遭受到這些不利益那我們希望的就是說在未來的時候有更多的這樣的一些不管是通用的廠商或者說國際貿易的廠商因為畢竟現在非紅供應鏈是我們非常重要的一個目標越來越多的民間能夠加入到這整體的產業來講我們應該是樂見才對"},{"start":3048.354,"end":3054.64,"text":"那接下來因為這個時間的因素我可能沒有辦法問全部的問題但是我在12月1號的時候有質詢過這個空軍所以這個呢空軍那個時候呢就是我們那時候是在討論就是說到底為什麼說這一個大三的時候結果體檢出問題的人變多對不對"},{"start":3066.571,"end":3082.543,"text":"那時候我們有討論過好幾個可能不同的因素我們說我們先不要下結論那在這一次呢其實因為我想說也要讓公眾知道其實空軍這邊是有來調相關資料的而且看起來好像也知道比較確切的原因所以是不是能趁這個時候跟國人說明一下"},{"start":3083.649,"end":3111.725,"text":"委員好 我是空軍常務長跟委員做簡單的報告那這個看起來他的比例就是畢業前飛行生不及格比例越來越高的原因是因為我們在以前全部是飛行生所以說他佔的比例就是百分之百一開始就是佔百分之百但是現在因為我們因應很多近視他想加入空軍的這些專才生也一併招進來所以說競效的時候他的飛行生的比例本來就低那"},{"start":3113.085,"end":3136.853,"text":"專財生的比例就大概佔了四分之一所以一進來他就是佔的比例就飛行生佔的比例本來就很低所以說你只要有一些不及格的佔比他就看起來會比較高的原因在這所以說專財生我們從110年開始陸陸續續就招了比較多大概在將近四分之一的這個專財生進入空軍官校所以看起來比例是比較高"},{"start":3137.333,"end":3154.066,"text":"但事實上它的常態畢業前飛行生不及格的比例大概都在8%以內這個沒有改變對 因為我有看到你們詳細的數據就簡單來講因為這個是專才跟飛行生都加入的進去如果是我們把它拆開的話就發現在飛行生這邊其實是算穩定"},{"start":3154.366,"end":3176.48,"text":"其實沒有比較高對所以這個我覺得很重要我用這個例子我也是想要強調就是說假設今天是有人在網路上拿到這樣的一個數據他可能就馬上鋪天蓋地的開始攻擊說什麼你看我們的沒有人想要當兵了沒有人想要來當飛官了因為中國的威脅什麼等等之類如果說今天這一個謠言一旦出去的話其實對國軍一定是傷"},{"start":3177.481,"end":3204.491,"text":"所以我們在第一時間我們要怎麼回應要怎麼樣讓這個謠言能夠直寫其實是非常重要的就用這個來當作一個例子那我們今天在討論這個案子其實也是一樣一開始就是它已經就被定調說這一個這個什麼條件看起來不符合的廠商他為什麼會做這樣的事情但其實我們從剛剛國際的例子或者說我們從國內這20年來我們招標的方式我們沒有改變我們這幾件事情其實應該要在第一時間的時候就要做回應"},{"start":3205.091,"end":3219.636,"text":"那不然的話你看整個週末這樣燒然後一直到今天這樣有這樣的一個專報我們變成說在今天這個時間才有辦法很精準的跟國人說明的時候他的謠言可能已經燒了三天OK 我覺得這個這個都會有傷這都會有傷那很感謝空軍調這個相關的資料讓我們解開這個疑惑那"},{"start":3223.601,"end":3238.411,"text":"接下來就是這一個這個我可能只能快速問一下就是我可能下次再繼續問詳細的細節就是我們這個第五級的這個保全人員做這個關鍵基礎設施這個防護目前我看到就是之前有做一個盤點說大概需要多少人"},{"start":3239.404,"end":3265.454,"text":"我們看到光是北部好像就需要大概200多人中部需要100多 南部需要多少我看加起來大概500人因為現在他們還要他這個資格有限定 對不對這個人應該很清楚就是說他可能是比如說他是特種的部隊退的又或者說他是軍人退伍的他才有辦法去做這個這個資格有限定而且我們國家還會幫忙做授訓這個都是好事"},{"start":3265.974,"end":3288.038,"text":"但是因為我們看今年這個受訓的資料看起來就是受訓的這個人數感覺還達不到我們現在需求的人數但我看薪水也不差對不對 這個薪水看起來是五萬多這個薪水也不差所以就是這一件事情現在有點人數不足那我們要怎麼樣讓這個量能趕快趕上這件事情是否可以簡短的說明一下就好因為時間已經到了我想"},{"start":3293.107,"end":3311.555,"text":"現在主要是說他們這些第五級的保全人員他有要求一些授訓的時數而且要有一些特殊的經驗那這些保全的人員他到底能不能夠去納入他們的這個特種的防護團的編組這可能是一個關鍵"},{"start":3313.076,"end":3335.931,"text":"那這個可能是要問一下內政部因為內政部在有關這個民防法相關的規範在規範那些有關這個民防總隊特種防護團聯合防護團這個相關的規定所以如果他把它納入這個特種防護團的話而且才能夠納入這個"},{"start":3339.264,"end":3361.451,"text":"民防法相當規定可以認為免緩招的一個對象那如果是這樣子的話是不是才有一個足夠的誘因然後同時他要能夠在這個防護特種防護塔裡面扮演一個什麼樣的角色基於他的經驗他的授訓的時數那如果能夠納入這樣整體的考量的話"},{"start":3362.371,"end":3375.821,"text":"應該才會有比較高的誘因因為這個誘因是我們之前討論過所以部長直接回答到一個重點就是說因為我們會來跟內政部溝通如果他能夠在這一個防護團的這個定義裡面的話他在這個叫召的時候他就不會有雙重的這個義務"},{"start":3377.202,"end":3401.795,"text":"那可能也對於因為裡面的人可能會抱怨說為什麼做這個又要做那一個所以在這件事情之下呢或許可以讓更多人知道有這樣的一個這個工作的這個機會所以我覺得因為畢竟像我們現在會有量能需求的問題那我們要怎麼去提高誘因它看起來它的薪水的福利是已經在那邊了有沒有其他的誘因能夠去提供的話我覺得這是至關重要的一點那因為時間因素我可能就先問到這裡謝謝好 謝謝謝偉謝謝"},{"start":3409.836,"end":3413.92,"text":"接下來請許巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們請顧立雄顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":3433.007,"end":3450.845,"text":"是 徐委員部長好今天專案報告因為我們談到這個原物料的採購案剛剛在前一位質詢的時候講得都頭頭是道但我這邊有一個問題想要問在今年的12月10號也就是上個禮拜的時候我們的沈記長在司法法治委員會報告的時候他提到"},{"start":3451.405,"end":3474.964,"text":"他們呢 審計部到中科院裡面去調查發現很多偽造產地證明以及偽造進口證明的問題那請部長來回答一下就是說為什麼審計部他們這個會研究發現到有所謂的偽造產地證明跟偽造進口證明在這一部分來說是發生了什麼事情你們有沒有去調查有沒有請中科院請"},{"start":3477.095,"end":3492.175,"text":"最主要是审计部在我们这边做内部审计的时候发现我们有找到发现很多厂商很多厂商是什么样的厂商他进口的是哪一类型的产品有包含今天关切的化学药品"},{"start":3492.555,"end":3502.483,"text":"化學藥品還有什麼樣的產品是有偽造產地證明跟偽造進口證明電子類電子類的也有這兩種是大宗是嗎那請問一下那這個是就是他們調查到是在什麼就是他們目前調查到的你們檢討掉所以是你們查我不管嘛因為今天我知道這個事情不是你告訴我的"},{"start":3513.973,"end":3531.003,"text":"是我在審計部他們講的時候我才知道這件事情所以我想要問一下剛剛您講的就是說有關於化學的這個原物料以及我們剛剛講到的電子類的通訊產品它有偽造產地證明跟偽造進口證明的部分加起來一共是幾起那時間到達是什麼時候"},{"start":3532.424,"end":3546.461,"text":"報告這個應該是中科院主動去發掘的沒問題沒問題就是你們主動這個要先強調可以可以可以主動當然很好但是因為有發生這樣的事嘛所以我想要問的事情是說它在數量上面以及期程就是我們到目前調查到的一個調查到哪一個時期"},{"start":3549.961,"end":3571.182,"text":"這我想我們等統計之後再跟委員做一個報告還要等統計啊那我們今天本來的這個報告裡面就關於這個原料案的各式各樣的審認做法呀那這個沈記長的這個報告他也是在12月10號的時候就已經說了呀那你不可能想說沈記長都已經提到了中科院裡面有出現這樣的問題那我在國防外交委員會的時候我不會提出來詢問吧這還需要等嗎"},{"start":3573.683,"end":3591.31,"text":"我30秒回答 審計長對於審計部的報告他可能沒有整個講清楚 審計部的報告最主要他的好意就是說中科院現在跟關務署的進口我們沒有辦法連線我們必須要透過國防部軍備局去申請之後才能連線那審計部的報告意見是希望"},{"start":3592.651,"end":3613.671,"text":"財政部關稅署能夠同意跟中科院直接連線我們對每一筆的進口資料可以透過關稅署這邊去查證但是目前關稅署並沒有同意所以我們現在採取的方式是針對他的進口報單他可以把他的進口價格塗銷但是我們從他的進口報單去查如果他中間的中轉港口包含鹿港澳地區我們就會特別再去查證"},{"start":3614.332,"end":3629.532,"text":"那請問一下就關於剛剛所講的就是說偽造產地證明偽造進口證明的這個這個數量跟調查期間就調查到的期間項目的部分呢那可不可以在沒有違反就所謂的這個軍事機密的情況之下提供給我們參考"},{"start":3630.573,"end":3654.09,"text":"需要多少時間可以給我這樣子的一個報告好 謝謝那再來呢我想要問一下就是有關於這個無人機的部分那國軍現在持續擴充無人機的操作手的能量我們希望2025年的時候能夠完訓3100多員嘛那大家會希望說人人都會操作可是我想問一個問題喔這個民用的無人機跟軍用無人機的證照它是有互相通用的嗎"},{"start":3655.24,"end":3676.987,"text":"我們就我的理解我們軍中會專門就這個各類型的無人機我們會做一個相關的一個認證你們會做相關的認證訓示室來說明好那可不可以盡快說明因為我們時間很有限今天議題很多志維好我是訓示室長跟志維報告我們的軍用無人機因為我們的一到五類無人機都有所謂的接裝訓練因為我們的"},{"start":3679.108,"end":3705.428,"text":"這個無人機的性能都是不太一樣是的所以我們會這個證照取得我們會有接裝訓練或是我們的訓練取得之後然後發給我們的操作手來做一個操作無人機的依據我知道你的情況了那但是呢部長我要跟你澄清一件事情現在在軍中裡面有非常多的基層軍官都遇到同樣的情況是什麼呢就是被長官要求要去報考無人機的學測這是民用的部分"},{"start":3706.529,"end":3727.503,"text":"來可以看一下在10月的時候就有了請問有人知道報名無人機學測要去哪裡報考嗎現在強制要去報考不然要懲處請問我們有做這樣的強制嗎報委我們國安部沒有做這方面的對我們沒有我們理論上沒有然後明面上發給他們的文書都沒有但是口頭上面就是沒有記錄的部分都有"},{"start":3728.323,"end":3748.641,"text":"這是部長我真的跟你講我如果今天不是受到非常多的陳情的話我今天不會在這裡講這個而且我待會會再提出更進一步的證據所以我要講的事情是如果我們官方的立場並沒有要強迫我們的基層官兵要去報名無人機的培訓民用的培訓的話那就不能在軍中發生這樣的事情我們看下一個部分 來"},{"start":3749.802,"end":3770.843,"text":"給大家看一下所謂歡迎有意願自費餐訓他把自費餐訓標起來這代表什麼意思其實大家在職場上面工作久的人都看得懂他說什麼呢費用要多少錢一個人要兩萬塊錢兩萬塊錢兩萬塊錢我再講一次上課安排他寫了一大堆就配了三台讓你去自主訓練"},{"start":3771.744,"end":3799.705,"text":"他就寫說 這個是一個很好的機會我提供很好的機會讓大家能夠自主的學習能夠學到更多的技能說得很好聽 說得很正向說自廢殘馴但其實大家都是被逼迫的我告訴大家這是八軍團的部分還有另外如果大家覺得這個截圖沒有辦法登記網址在下面他傳到軍中裡面要大家去登記所以有誰有報 有誰沒報長官都看得到"},{"start":3800.405,"end":3817.201,"text":"所以今天沒報的人他都會緊張說那長官看到我沒報是不是覺得說我今天我跟我的上級長官我之間會產生衝突還沒有 等一下一併回覆那再來如果大家覺得這個只是一部分的話告訴大家另外在官職部也一樣"},{"start":3818.062,"end":3835.07,"text":"這個是我們拿到的收據去參加什麼呢崇祐影藝科技大學推廣教育中心無人機的證照班收據訓練費用是兩萬三千元補助一萬三但是學員要自分一萬塊錢我想問一下如果剛才都講得這麼清楚了"},{"start":3835.49,"end":3851.273,"text":"是沒有所謂的要強迫大家去上課那學員還要去自費一萬這是一個什麼樣的情況啊我們繼承官兵他們的薪水也不是說特別的高那今天因為國防部你們要希望他們可以有所謂的新技能"},{"start":3851.713,"end":3871.301,"text":"然後要他們去另外額外付錢去做一個訓練這不是很奇怪嗎如果像部長您剛剛講的很好啊我們自己有自己的培訓我們用自己的培訓讓他們來學習讓他們來培訓之後能夠取得我們自己國防部裡面的許可說你已經有這樣子的一個技能了還需要人家付一萬塊錢到兩萬塊錢嗎你看關子部的價格跟人家八軍團價格還不一樣耶"},{"start":3877.563,"end":3900.699,"text":"所以這代表說這是發生在全台灣裡面基層士兵裡面都普遍有的情況非常多人在抱怨是這個事情請問部長您知不知道以及未來要如何改進報告委員我簡要回答第一個我們目前以陸軍來說我們都是以一二類的無人機為主我們依據民航法99之10條我們的軍用無人機是可以依照我們的專長證書不用所謂的民間證照"},{"start":3905.126,"end":3926.997,"text":"對 我知道啊所以我才覺得你們很奇怪嘛第二點 我們所有籌購的無人機不管是軍售 商售都是包含到幫我們做訓練第三點 如果委員所提列這個事證我們清查是屬實的話我們會嚴格的禁止你們要嚴格 我跟你講你們要嚴格禁止因為它已經是包含我剛剛已經舉了兩個地方官職部跟八軍團都有我們會下去了解 是"},{"start":3930.959,"end":3946.486,"text":"拜託了解不要再用這種所謂的自願然後呢講是講自願實際上就是要求我們自己有自己的系統不需要讓基層士兵還要多花一兩萬塊錢去做這個事情好嗎那個部長這個部分國防部可以檢討嗎"},{"start":3949.602,"end":3977.012,"text":"陸軍參謀長我想應該也不是只有陸軍我想因為我們應該都會嚴格禁止有這樣的狀況我們因為今天委員提出來那我們會下去做一個清查可不可以給我一個時間你們要需要花多少時間檢討之後給我一個答案我想是不是兩個禮拜好的好那接下來另外一個議題是關於身心調適假的部分那個請問一下部長因為您之前也是律師應該非常清楚各種放假的這個規定請問身心調適假是什麼時候開始實行的"},{"start":3978.126,"end":3979.209,"text":"申請條市價應該是10月"},{"start":3984.307,"end":4010.001,"text":"對 沒錯啦 就不用太精準啦就是114年10月10號啦那包含是我們也一直強調就是關於說約聘僱的這個部分也應該要就是能夠跟上那謝謝國防部在這邊呢私底下也給我們一些比較正面的回饋好 但是呢但是齁 我要講一下來 看下一張那個我們那個參謀長又可以回來了我可以看一下齁欸 身心調適加115年開始實施這是一個什麼樣的一個說明啊"},{"start":4012.594,"end":4022.586,"text":"不是114年10月開始上路的事情嗎為什麼我們很多的地方都在講說哎呀115年開始實施跟人家拗這個半不到半年的時間有意義嗎"},{"start":4026.109,"end":4055.549,"text":"蛤我時間不是很夠齁這個上面的訊息上面的資料我跟你講不只啦你要這樣子我就一個一個給你看有多少人都在講請不到身心調適價的問題來觀止部齁硬要把補修榮譽價慰勞價都修完才能開始請身心調適價這有合乎法規嗎沒有好身心道這個剛剛我還沒念完還有咧身心調適價到底可不可以用觀止部都沒有宣導很多人在問下一個"},{"start":4056.199,"end":4056.22,"text":"好"},{"start":4056.994,"end":4085.521,"text":"主管說誰想放身心調適假你或我走一個囂張啊身心調適假主觀不能阻擋但就是可以噁心別人啊把你約來看一下你是不是有什麼情緒狀況啊我想請一個身心調適假結果我越請壓力越大所有人都跑來關心我發生什麼事情我要告訴大家的是說這個部分國防部一定尤其顧部長我記得您在一上任的時候做了一個非常好的一個政策我也很認同"},{"start":4086.221,"end":4114.082,"text":"就關於就是回家的時候那個假日回報的這個事情那時候在一陣子之後我有跟您講說您這個命令下去是好的但是執行下去的時候遇到一些問題那您後來您也說要去改善身心調適假放到一樣的問題在軍隊裡面也就是這個假有但問題是國軍請不了所以可不可以問一下那個部長您也是律師在這種情況之下我們的基層士兵要如何去維繫自己的權益啊"},{"start":4114.775,"end":4133.087,"text":"我想類似這種比較屬於去年10月10號才實施的這樣子的一個身心調適下我們確實應該要多多的到每個基層讓各個主管都能夠了解那我們會努力的來進行這個宣導"},{"start":4134.488,"end":4156.509,"text":"這個非常非常的重要我們對於國軍裡面這一些日子以來然後產生的各種智商的人數的攀升以及我們對於包含是很多的心腹的提高大家都很努力在做那今天有這樣的一個身心調事件我們希望能夠幫到基層軍官是 因為它事實上它有一個就是說國軍有一個特殊性"},{"start":4157.19,"end":4171.187,"text":"他當然有特殊性影響到戰備的部分所以這個部分我想我們會遵照委員的指示我們會努力的去做一個宣導努力做一個平衡好不好至少你要讓人家他看"},{"start":4172.208,"end":4198.375,"text":"就你今天如果說你不讓請是因為說我們現在可能目前的請假的情況是對我們戰力上面戰備上面會有影響的時候你也要把這個事情告訴人家跟人家算給別人聽嘛那我們的軍官不會不懂嘛今天大家會覺得請不到假而且這麼多人都請不到的原因就是因為明明人數是夠的那就我一個人要請假結果呢也不讓請所以才會有這樣子的一個問題所以這個部分應該很清楚是需要改善的對吧"},{"start":4198.895,"end":4219.248,"text":"我想剛剛委員講一個平衡我想這是一個很好的一個觀念我沒有要求你們說一定說我沒有要求你們說所有的東西一定非得怎麼樣我知道國軍有特殊之處但是國軍的權益部分他能夠盡量讓他擁有的不可以讓他喪失這是我們對於我們軍官弟兄最基本希望國防部能夠盡量來做的"},{"start":4220.629,"end":4239.252,"text":"那最後一個問題就是關於今年12月8號的時候F16發生這個飛行員的昏迷案件那最後好險是成功醒來喔但是呢也引發了這個司令部的飛安通報那請問一下當初說要裝Auto-GCSA防撞地系統的時候是有什麼原因部長您知道嗎"},{"start":4241.666,"end":4263.613,"text":"官方委員這是在107年的時候6月4號的時候F16發生一級事件之後那我們提出來的一個做法對 107年的時候發生了這個我們的無駕駛然後呢這個失事的情況之下我們軍方經過檢討之後認為有必要在F16上面呢裝這樣子的一個系統那請問一下"},{"start":4264.113,"end":4285.111,"text":"我們裝這個Auto GCSAS的防撞地系統是什麼時候招標什麼時候付款的因為畢竟這是2018年我們就已經評估要做的事情是 這個一直在跟美軍進行一直是什麼時候開始從107年之後的107年6月之後我們在107年的8月就跟美軍開始談這個案子"},{"start":4287.099,"end":4313.892,"text":"那因為美軍自己那個時候都沒有這樣的一個裝備然後呢所以一直在發展到這幾年美軍也才做完這幾年是哪幾年講得清楚一點好不好大概在今年也才完成一個飛測今年完成飛測今年是2025年數位的部分因為它要結合這個系統不是說你裝上去它就可以用我知道啊每一個國家的飛機都不一樣我知道啊但是我想問一下我們這個部分向美軍付款沒有"},{"start":4315.467,"end":4334.146,"text":"這個已經開始在做已經都佈線了所以已經付款了嘛對不對目前裝設的情況怎麼樣佈線在明年我們目前F16裡面這個裝設這個系統的比率是多少佈線明年4月才完成所有的機隊目前完成130架目前是0嘛目前是130架"},{"start":4337.472,"end":4356.561,"text":"完成布線它主要分成三個部分我要問的是說裝好這個系統嘛因為今天這個發生昏迷事件之後大家回想起來說2018年你們就講說要裝這個系統了18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25隔了多久了那所以我要問一下說我們目前為止裝好這個系統的F16是幾架"},{"start":4358.817,"end":4383.309,"text":"報告委員不能用裝好幾架這個東西就是他已經可以開始使用他可以開始使用這個系統的有幾架他要分三階段來執行就完成嘛 就123階段我就問到做好到第三階段的有幾架嘛因為我跟你說你可以直接回答我因為有的明年才能好那就明年OK報告委員他的第三階段還不能做的原因是因為我們的飛機的軟體系統還沒有update完他不能現在去裝這個軟體要不然的話在飛機上是不能PV不能使用"},{"start":4388.892,"end":4395.64,"text":"那請問一下2023年要給立法院的報告裡面有沒有寫到什麼時候要在台灣做安裝跟測試"},{"start":4397.751,"end":4417.702,"text":"你們在2023年的時候好我告訴你在2023年的時候因為大家時間背景不太一樣最後我講一下在2023年的時候我們就也再問過一次問題專案報告那時候給立法院的報告是說呢美國空軍在2024年要在台灣安裝跟測試那個時候的說法是這樣"},{"start":4420.123,"end":4445.308,"text":"那到了現在是要到明年那沒關係第一階段已經開始做包委員這個2024年我們第一階段已經開始做這個沒有問題但是跟您報告全案結束要到115年才會開始陸陸續續上機那是因為軟體匹配的問題因為它是數位的非控軟體才能安裝這個東西所以要到2028年全機隊才能完成安裝嘛對不對"},{"start":4446.128,"end":4466.623,"text":"不用 到116年27年不是 2028年這是你們12月10號講的啊是那你現在要告訴我是可以提前了是嗎是所以說你可以12月10號的時候你們告訴我們說呢2028年全機隊能夠完成安裝那您現在的說法是說能夠提前多久到什麼時候全機隊完成安裝的時間整個全案我們在"},{"start":4470.751,"end":4477.453,"text":"是 這個我們在116年這個部分我們是可以上機來使用全部的機隊嗎是好 謝謝你謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":4505.231,"end":4523.823,"text":"部長早安是陳委員對於國防部整個採購規範依法依規的作業流程我們是尊重當然中間有一些技術性的問題或者一些工程性的問題我會就專業立場就交於採購室主任或是軍備局局長"},{"start":4525.585,"end":4549.838,"text":"这一次当然我们是讲这个规范原物料那这个原物料是完整的配方进来还是要由205厂重新再组合各位看一下右边的这个方框框里面RDX里面它是一个化工的有水油本有甲本已存这个组合进口的原物料请问是液态"},{"start":4551.099,"end":4572.716,"text":"還是沙粒狀還是塊狀還是柱狀我們回來做整合跟委員報告我們進來的RDS就是火炸藥的原料它是一個泡在水裡面的像麵粉一樣泡在水裡面全部都是用一桶一桶用水運過來它的前身就是污漏脫貧"},{"start":4574.017,"end":4595.087,"text":"烏洛托瓶再加上到我們205廠再經過了98.5%的溶硫酸的消化然後再把它精煉然後才會成立一個結晶體結晶體的顆粒越大價格越高結晶體的顆粒越小價格越小就跟鑽石一樣以上報告所以它進來的是桶狀的請問這個合約整個執行的過程全程多長"},{"start":4601.19,"end":4624.839,"text":"合约里面300天要缴一半85吨365天要缴另外的85吨所以就是分两次交运提一个建议因为我们在国际采购过程中间往往第一批交运完了第二批因为政治的因素产生延宕这个时候罚则就不一定了"},{"start":4625.399,"end":4642.101,"text":"那这个部分就是建请以后在分批交货的时候后面有个但书不能因为他国内的情势或者政治因素第一个是延迟交货我们甚至碰到过他不交货了这个时候打官司还去仲裁很麻烦的这个是提出的建议因为"},{"start":4642.822,"end":4670.456,"text":"你刚刚提的很好最好是一次交货一次交货结案就比较清楚因为分两次一个是中间一个是到第二批到下面提请做一个建议因为这个东西本身它是有一部分的风险危险性所以整个在过程中间各位看这张图表里面我们提出需求市场调查这个过程你们都经历了都没有问题"},{"start":4671.735,"end":4693.486,"text":"但是呢因为国内啊别的厂商不愿意投标所以得标厂商当然是依法合规他获得标那只是说在这个履约过程中间的履约督导这个军备局跟这个采购室啊要严格督导就是我刚刚向大家提起的因为你是分次交运那交运过程中间呢"},{"start":4694.286,"end":4718.243,"text":"的安全係數那麼包括航運在哪個地方下船從裝貨那是用貨櫃裝因為是統裝裝在貨櫃裡面有多少貨櫃希望這些數值都能夠掌握住不要在交運的過程中產生了一些意外事件然後權責不清因為我們是收售單位在運送過程中間合約廠商要負這個責任"},{"start":4720.004,"end":4739.44,"text":"刚才提到了出口许可门槛值都合标这个是我们乐见很尊重但关键的因素就是到205厂验收以后我们拿到原物料的制成过程中间多少时间可以支持到我们战备需求这是我们内部的管理"},{"start":4740.58,"end":4758.554,"text":"最主要就是因为我们过去参考过有些购案在过程中间它的弹数变了也就是说第二批往后延迟交货甚至还有第三批因为某些因素就不能交货这个时候一些合约过程中的法律"},{"start":4759.375,"end":4781.283,"text":"我想部长本身在这个地方是专业了多指导他们因为我们都不能以一切顺利作为预判而是说不理想状况下产生的问题如何解决问题解套最好是全案顺利执行那这边还有一个就是有关这个IMO的规则他因为这是危险物品"},{"start":4782.083,"end":4809.861,"text":"所以过着运送过程中间请他要具备一切的这个安全设计的文件那确保我们落地的时候航运过程顺利落地的时候我们运送过程中间是安全一直到到205厂的交货这个我想这个局长您这边把这个重点强调一下跟委员报告所有的城商他得标之后他从出口港"},{"start":4810.899,"end":4829.874,"text":"他就是要取得一個合宇國際船舶規定的航運公司他的船到了出口港上了船的貨品到了我們台灣台灣大概就是只有高雄港跟吉隆港兩個港口在報關那大概城商都會選擇以205場為例他會選擇高雄港來報關"},{"start":4833.217,"end":4853.614,"text":"我們的合約都寫得很清楚了到港下貨之前的全責都是城商負責到港驗收因為火工是屬於國軍專有的專業由我們的人城商不准靠近在安全之旅之外我們的人就是上車按照道路的條例相關的一些的申請都要申請我們的人都受過了勞動部相關押運的相關的規定到了205場我們的管制區之後"},{"start":4859.278,"end":4875.631,"text":"下運 下運之後再接下去做產品的檢驗也是由我們的專業人員來執行合格 付錢 不合格 退官以上報告那這一段過程中間跟中科院有沒有互動因為過去中科院自己也曾經組合過這種炸藥"},{"start":4886.55,"end":4903.096,"text":"包委員其實205廠產製的RDX成品大部分是給綜合院使用的好 了解好 謝謝後面有兩個問題我可能請殉斥次次長其他的請回採購的問題沒有殉斥次次長"},{"start":4906.828,"end":4929.828,"text":"無人機是未來作戰的一個主要的趨勢那不只是無人飛機所有的無人載台UAV USV UUV 水面水下都有我們很多的同仁現在強調的是操作的過程的簽證 認證那我提出一個建議就是因為不同的載台不同的通訊頻寬"},{"start":4931.729,"end":4955.375,"text":"限制因素这个各军种不一样另外一个就是当操作过程中间目前所谓的轻型无人机都是在我们本岛使用那使用的条件下就是发生有事说国土防卫在这个情况下所以我们的ROE就是战备规定的交战规则的授权"},{"start":4956.457,"end":4964.537,"text":"所謂的簽證並不是說操作手他會操作他就要承擔責任因為有兩種狀況第一個是目標誤判"},{"start":4966.343,"end":4993.814,"text":"这个责任是由操作手来承担呢还是操作手说我没有办法确认目标因为这种消耗型的我们宁可让它自毁绝对不能达到我们的民间目标或是不能识别那因为通讯频段不同这种出去使用的飞行时间也有限如果国内有它的上一级那上一级就要承担这个责任所以在同时训练操作的技术这个原则下"},{"start":4994.574,"end":5021.261,"text":"同样在我们的所谓的这个所谓的训练班次乃至于到只参对于大型的中大型的无人机ROE这个交战规则责任承担上下授权到某个level不是操作首付全责这个东西是希望要持续精进的另外一个传回来的是目标的"},{"start":5022.649,"end":5051.516,"text":"圖像也好影像傳回或是大型的甚至有訊號回來回來是你傳到上一級單位它跟你使用的是Google的圖片還是有大區的跟我們陸軍作戰區的UTM圖這個在將來在操作訓練上都要做整合的精進我們現階段看到有當然好有比沒有好但是有還要持續精進我講的共同圖像包括火鞋的圖像"},{"start":5052.296,"end":5077.762,"text":"战术的图像还有大区的国防部长官看到整个大范围的图像这个目标的标注位置在大图像上要能够显示出来所以这点我提出建议希望大家共同来努力最后一个议题给部长做参考就是有关军人调薪的部分我本席的建议就是我们退伍军人其实他在服役期间承担的责任跟现役是完全一样"},{"start":5078.582,"end":5098.679,"text":"所有的军人我们讲的军人武德自信仁勇言其实他是牺牲奉猿军人不是职业军人是志业因此退伍跟在职其实他应该是享受同样的待遇这点是不是可以请部长指导一下是不是请资源师先说一下"},{"start":5100.731,"end":5124.304,"text":"報告委員 我是志願司司長因為這部分其實本部向來都會重視不管是現役還是退役軍人的一個相關的福利目前的制度上就是軍公教一體退役軍人的調薪的部分是由行政院會同考試院來訂定它的條件就是說當消費者物價指數累計到正負5%或者是每四年調整一次目前是一致性的做法"},{"start":5126.593,"end":5144.905,"text":"當然我們把軍公教放在一起其實是不同的這是不同的定義不同的解釋因為軍人的志業他的犧牲奉獻以及他承擔的風險跟公教人員甚至跟社會上其他的職業團體是完全不一致的我們私下再來做溝通好 謝謝謝謝部長謝謝接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":5163.717,"end":5165.501,"text":"好 謝謝趙偶爾 我們有請顧部長請顧部長好 部長早"},{"start":5174.964,"end":5197.125,"text":"部長 針對目前大家所討論的這個軍備局205廠RDX海草根的這個火藥採購案那決標金額因為達到5.9億那也由於這個採購的項目是受到嚴格的管控的戰略物資那有人質疑說得標的廠商因為背景比較單薄會不會產生什麼樣的一個弊端"},{"start":5197.866,"end":5204.543,"text":"那部長您也在第一時間有出面做出了回應後續也看到國安部有進一步的這個說明"},{"start":5205.649,"end":5233.019,"text":"那在這次的這個專報當中也針對廠商的這個資格標準資格審認的做法以及履約的管制作為等等有相關的解釋但是在這個輿論上針對採購專業和國安的疑慮仍然有相當多的這個臆測和解讀那我想也藉由這次的巡打機會是不是請我們國安部針對疑點能夠盡可能的來釐清"},{"start":5234.099,"end":5259.99,"text":"首先在這個報告當中也有提到火藥的原物料受限於各國產量有限以及地緣政治的影響製造國往往優先滿足自身的一個需求加上嚴格的輸出管制導致供貨非常的不穩定表示說在火藥原物料的供需上可能存在著失衡的一個狀況"},{"start":5261.391,"end":5284.726,"text":"那如果國內廠商沒有產製能量也就必須在採購法的規範中來採取廣增商源的一個策略確保我們彈藥武器的生產不中斷那我想先請教部長目前在國際間火藥的原物料取得有多困難"},{"start":5286.534,"end":5313.596,"text":"國防部在新聞稿當中又特別提到因為這個台灣在國際社會面對特殊的環境一旦商源開發受到惡意的這個破壞干擾採購將更加的困難那這樣的情況有沒有辦法可以避免所以我想第一點我還是再特別強調就是說我們就是要廣增商源"},{"start":5315.222,"end":5343.559,"text":"我們的把關是在後面的履約的部分是那所以重點就是他能不能夠完成這個構案這個才是我們的重點嘛所以他要能夠拿到這一個當地政府的輸出許可的證明文件拿到原廠的證明文件而且這個品質是能夠經得起我們檢驗的這就是整個案子標案的一個重點這也才是話對重點那我們"},{"start":5344.933,"end":5370.883,"text":"過去 我要強調我們過去20年來過去20年來我們去統計的所有相關這些火料原物料的採購案都是如此 都是公開招標然後他訂的當然你要有公司你要有納稅證明其他另外一個條件就是你能夠從事國際貿易業所以你能夠從事國際貿易業的業務項目那你能夠拿到這個相關的這些"},{"start":5372.421,"end":5400.288,"text":"我們認為其實取得不易的當地政府的輸出許可的證明文件那他才會願意來進行參標啊那所以你訂定任何其他的資格或者你去計較這公司的名稱這個什麼資本額這個其實在我看來對於他日後能不能履約這件事情沒有相關性"},{"start":5402.711,"end":5426.611,"text":"也就是他有辦法取得政府的輸出許可有辦法拿到原廠的證明有辦法從原廠拿到貨然後原廠願意承擔所有相關這些運送的包括要有專傳然後要有保險等等這些那運抵之後那能夠交貨那我們才會付錢"},{"start":5428.581,"end":5453.838,"text":"沒有辦法交得了貨我們不會付錢而且他還要承擔履約保證金被沒收他還要被停權所以我們認為整個的觀念就在於履約這個過程上面的一個嚴格的一個監督控管然後我們廣徵這一個商源讓大家都能夠有能力的人都能夠來參與"},{"start":5455.672,"end":5471.094,"text":"這也是我們針對投標廠商的一個這個審認的一個標準那也應該沒有廠商說來投標說它上面是標註它是這個火藥的這個供應商應該是沒有這種廠商吧"},{"start":5471.764,"end":5494.039,"text":"我們就是他能夠有國際貿易他能夠有一個代理的資格因為國內沒有自資產能那要從外面採購進來那他只要有從事國際貿易他能夠拿到我剛剛講的這些重要的這些許可的文件然後他能夠拿到貨這才是重點"},{"start":5496.541,"end":5524.449,"text":"我們國軍對於這個生產炸藥的資訊是相對的保密不過有其他的報宅指出我們在數十年前大概在1980年左右我們203兵工廠就曾經建立RDS炸藥的一個生產線並且在近年來205廠也曾經多次招標生產控制系統的違保案以維持RDS炸藥的一個生產"},{"start":5525.93,"end":5538.804,"text":"那我想再請教部長針對我們所需要的這個炸藥國軍是否有自製的一個量能那是因為什麼樣的一個需求或原因才有必要對外採購RDS炸藥跟委員報告軍備局205場"},{"start":5540.786,"end":5560.097,"text":"為了因應各式彈藥火炸藥的需求我們在民國63年就已經依照了美軍MILO STANDARD海藻根的一個標準由瑞士碧雅材原廠計轉設置產線迄今原廠實施維護保養目前都均為妥善的運用那這次為什麼會在"},{"start":5561.86,"end":5591.287,"text":"外購是因應軍種未來不對稱作戰裝備的需求的量增加現有的廠人無法滿足我們超前部署然後自製以採購來並行所以這次買了170噸的一個海藻根我們後續會編列相關的預算我們會來擴限擴限完成之後我們就是自己來提煉達到國防自主跟滿足我們耳後所有武器裝備生產的需求 以上報告"},{"start":5593.45,"end":5593.833,"text":"部長還要補充嗎 沒有"},{"start":5597.403,"end":5624.448,"text":"我想另外對於這個炸藥的一個籌貨如果我們國內有自主生產的一個潛力那也應該考慮到投入更多的資源來強化我們國防自主的這個能力我想針對國內研發炸藥的這個項目這個議題 來 何部長您再做討論去年曾經有報載內容指出那國軍已經成功研製出CL20的一個炸藥"},{"start":5625.228,"end":5644.242,"text":"那它的這個爆炸效能和威力比現有的炸藥大概高出40%的部分過往這個包括美國中國甚至這個俄羅斯都有進行製造製作和運用那我們今年也有看到"},{"start":5645.263,"end":5661.608,"text":"快騎無人攻擊艇搭載CL-20的炸藥的這個消息如果能夠結合各式的武器使用那對於國軍的戰力相當有所提升那我想請教部長有關CL-20的炸藥我們目前生產"},{"start":5663.148,"end":5676.742,"text":"這個生產線的量能進度為何那生產的成本是否能夠再降低後續應用的這種各式國造的飛彈或無人載具有什麼樣的一個規劃可以做連結"},{"start":5677.714,"end":5697.23,"text":"那目前這個組織單位應該是中科院嘛好 那針對這個部分部長或是我們院長是不是可公開的部分可以做簡要的說明是 第一個就是因為CL20的技術已經列入國家關鍵核心技術所以它的量能的部分我這邊沒辦法做很具體的描述"},{"start":5697.81,"end":5710.825,"text":"第二個就是有關它的產製的效益和價格的問題我們現在已經把CL20的前驅物質跟國內的化工廠商做合作前驅物質不牽涉危險性的部分都交給國內的廠商來做"},{"start":5712.987,"end":5728.221,"text":"後面要精煉的部分再由我們來執行所以它的價格已經比當時在實驗階段降低了一半以上降低一半是 但是CL20因為在國際上大家都是一個很保密的技術也沒有公開的售價所以我們也沒有辦法去評斷說這個售價它的競爭力和標準"},{"start":5731.644,"end":5758.079,"text":"那至於未來運用的規劃部分沒有錯就是我們今年在快騎艇的公開展演上我們的確用了CL20炸藥進去來增加它的爆炸的威能那另外就是未來我們目前初步規劃就是CL20主要運用會在所有國軍自製的無人載具上面包含無人艇無人機只要攻擊型的無人載具我們盡量都把它裝上這種比較高能的炸藥來發揮它的攻擊戰力好"},{"start":5761.618,"end":5779.61,"text":"那這個火藥原物料的取得是否順利對於我們軍備的一個量能還有戰力的一個建構都有相當程度的一個影響那我也請國防部務必要以最高的標準嚴格把關那不論是透過採購或是我們自主的研發"},{"start":5780.771,"end":5809.686,"text":"都盡最大的這個努力來籌獲我們相關的一個戰略物資也藉由這次的事件來檢視未來我們怎樣來強化軍備的採購審查相關的一個規範不但能夠找到合法合規有專業乘坐能力的相關廠商同時取得在社會大眾信任的基礎上這也是需要持續精進的一個部分那這一部分我就請我們部長跟相關部委"},{"start":5810.426,"end":5833.885,"text":"我想簡單報告兩點第一點就是說我們身處特殊的國際環境剛剛陳委員也提到了我們其實原物料來源取得不易我們希望大家都能夠讓我們的火藥原物料來源不要因此而斷裂所以在這裡還是希望大家一起來"},{"start":5836.808,"end":5851.762,"text":"這個支持我們的這些漸進備戰的這所需要的火藥原物料那第二個當然就是說我們國防部都是經得起公開監督檢視好 以上的謝謝部長跟相關部會的答詢 謝謝謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台諮詢"},{"start":5866.091,"end":5868.954,"text":"謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長各位"},{"start":5877.146,"end":5896.74,"text":"部長早 有關RDS海草根的炸藥標案剛剛其實也是討論得非常的多那得標廠商的背景如何又如何這個我在想剛剛部長還有國防部這兩天都解釋得非常的多就像部長所講的我們真的不要畫錯這個重點重點在後面它能不能"},{"start":5896.8,"end":5921.167,"text":"我們能禮約那當然本席還是有幾個問題想要就交部長就是延續剛剛陳俊宇委員的這個議題確實是我們都有看到一份報導我們說他有提到就是說有一份報導前兩天然後就提到就是說我們軍方是數十年來首次對外招標採購RDX炸藥是這樣子嗎我們第一次嗎"},{"start":5924.959,"end":5943.676,"text":"我的了解是 我們第一次對外採購RDS我們確實是第一次對 因為我們軍備局本來就有一定的產能那我想我們這邊也不宜多說我們這些產能但是我們現在要擴大這個需求那這些擴大需求 所以我們要去做商情的一個"},{"start":5944.454,"end":5955.056,"text":"一個探討那確定國內沒有自製的產能的情況之下我們一定要透過國際貿易商來去向內購外貨那所以"},{"start":5958.108,"end":5982.797,"text":"就跟過去一樣我剛剛已經講了過去20年來有關這樣子的一種火藥原物料內購外貨它的對所有投票資格都是一致的我們這一次跟以前20年來都沒有任何的改變沒有任何改變我們也都是公開招標那我想這個部分要跟國人做一個清楚的報告那也就剛剛委員所講的那真正的重點是在於他會來參標那就"},{"start":5985.39,"end":6002.261,"text":"就要看他後面的履約他是不是能夠做得到他做不到真的是一翻兩瞪眼他拿不到錢還要被沒收履約保證金還要停權所以他當然他都需要有把握所以我們過去20年來都是如此在進行"},{"start":6003.194,"end":6018.746,"text":"是 所以部長您的說法其實是跟這媒體其實所報導其實是有吻合的他說因為說實在的這RDS它也不是新的炸藥原料其實早在第一次世界大戰以前它就已經合成製作了然後到二次大戰的時候才開始大量的生產"},{"start":6022.088,"end":6049.185,"text":"所以它用的用途是用在雷管、火箭、穿甲彈等等用途所以我在想說我們絕對不是第一次有這樣子的需求所以我有看到報導上就想說這數十年來我們第一次採購RDS那表示說像過去幾十年來我們一定有這樣子的需求這表示說我們其實軍備局這裡一直都有能力來做生產只是說現在是量能"},{"start":6049.505,"end":6061.394,"text":"不足的問題所以必須要對外採購是這樣子的說法就是軍備局有一定的產製的量能當我們現在有這樣子的一個需求"},{"start":6063.968,"end":6070.633,"text":"產能沒有辦法滿足的情況之下我們就要規劃自製跟採購來並行是 我再請教一下部長因為您剛剛在您的專題報告裡面您有提到我們採購以前一定會辦理公開徵求國內的商員也就表示說我們會確認國內廠商人 物 火 藥 原物 料 產 質 能量"},{"start":6089.867,"end":6107.624,"text":"像這個部分的話其實這樣國內沒有任何一個廠商有這個能力來製作嗎還是說因為礙於法規的關係所以並沒有辦法產生一個供應鏈我想請教這個部分法規是一個很重大的障礙是因為我們的要"},{"start":6109.386,"end":6113.449,"text":"要通得過槍炮彈藥卸管制條例要取得內政部的許可才可以製造這些所以法規還沒有鬆綁以前或者是表示說我們絕對不會有所謂的國內廠商只要軍備局205廠這邊沒有辦法產生這個量能的話勢必一定要從國外購入"},{"start":6133.641,"end":6148.607,"text":"像這個部分的話我們有想說往後我們要做政策的這個鬆綁或是法律的鬆綁能夠培植國內的廠商來製作嗎我們有這個方向跟想法嗎這個政策上的一個大方向會"},{"start":6150.379,"end":6177.276,"text":"會是一個非常重大的一個因為我們現在是有關於非這一個主要的這個製程的部分我們可以透過國防部來跟我們的民間廠商來協力但是我們如果主要的這一個能夠組成這個槍炮彈藥的主要的部分包括炸藥等等的我想要開放我們國內的廠商能夠自製這個我想會涉及到"},{"start":6179.792,"end":6202.884,"text":"我想很多不同的看法因為我們畢竟現在都是沒有讓民間擁有任何的槍枝彈藥然後能夠生產這些火工的部件所以這個可能是一個非常有高度政策性要決定的問題因為我們到現在為止應該是沒有開放給民間"},{"start":6204.285,"end":6227.7,"text":"因為我們現在礙於法規的關係沒有辦法開放給民間那當然我在報導裡面也有看到就同一個報導他說我們原有的RDS炸藥生產機具已經老舊了所以導致產量受限是因為機具老舊的關係呢還是因為需求增加的關係這個部分呢這部分如果說我們又把它拉回到君佩琪這邊來講的話我們要如何克服這些困難本委員報告我們的裝備"},{"start":6231.704,"end":6255.089,"text":"沒有什麼老舊沒辦法生產我們的量能我現在不能透露我們量能也是蠻大的可是明後年不對稱作戰的裝備需求更大所以我才要去外國都是每年由原廠碧雅彩公司我們都是用合約請他們來做全線的保養維修訂根件 訂檢件該換的都換這個這一條線目前產能都是沒問題的"},{"start":6260.13,"end":6278.46,"text":"對 因為我有看到說其實他們有看到你們到去年為止還有招標這個維修生產控制系統所以就表示說其實這一直都有在生產 在產值當中只是說就是量能的關係所以不得不外購OK 那再來接下來的這個議題其實呢我想本來是想要討論這個鈍感彈藥的這個發展"},{"start":6281.201,"end":6284.624,"text":"可是這樣聽一聽說實在這個發展可能也會受限於一些法規的關係所以可能這部分這條路可能還有很長的一條路我在想像我們都看到其實有很多國家在國際上都將鈍感彈藥視為防止彈藥庫殉爆或提振後勤安全的一個基本的要求其實我們在數據上上面也有看到像過去的話國際上來講其實也因為彈藥庫爆炸造成很多"},{"start":6308.743,"end":6332.696,"text":"很重大的死傷我們國內也是一樣所以很多國家其實它有朝向就是說要發展鈍感彈藥可是剛剛我們看到當然我們看軍備局的回答就是說其實雖然是我們的軍工產業是很成熟的可是可能礙於一些法令所以我們沒有辦法跟民間業者國內的業者來合作所以很多中小企業現在沒有辦法投入彈藥研發跟生產所以國內的產業鏈是無法"},{"start":6335.517,"end":6350.793,"text":"來進入就表示說我們這個鈍感彈藥的發展可能會遠遠落後像美國 中國跟北約這些國家所以像這部分的話我們未來是要怎麼樣來做推進跟委員報告我們國軍的鈍感炸藥"},{"start":6352.13,"end":6380.151,"text":"都是跟美軍同步的都是MILO我們美軍什麼標準我們就什麼標準我們都是依這個標準來所以我們國軍的標準就是美軍的標準第二個我們剛剛探討那麼多的一個RDS它就是所有鈍感彈藥的原料所以我們也是依照MILO的標準然後來設置這個RDSRDS就是所有鈍感炸藥的原料"},{"start":6380.851,"end":6396.023,"text":"他可以做C4他可以做A5他可以做V炸藥各有不同但是所有的彈藥都叫做鈍感炸藥鈍感度越低他就越安全鈍感度越高比如說像雷管他就是比較不安定的以上報告"},{"start":6396.998,"end":6423.323,"text":"所以其實我們還是有在發展但是我有看這些數據確實是有啦只是說國內其實有些學者也在探討這個說其實跟其他的國家來講像美國啦中國其實他們在這方面的研究在這方面研發其實比起台灣其實是落後了很多因為我也看到像先前的話像我們國防部自己本身出的這個記刊裡面也在檢討這個"},{"start":6425.724,"end":6443.817,"text":"所以在想說我們如何減少一些訓誕的一些這個狀況發生減少一些傷亡所以這個部分這個方向也許是大家可能是要要來研究的這個方向就是跟委員報告第一個當然就是說我們現在還是只有軍備局就是只有軍備局會來擴張這個會來擴張產線這是第一點第二點"},{"start":6448.42,"end":6469.781,"text":"美軍後續開發新型的這些盾管炸藥我們會藉台美交流的時機我們來爭取既轉合作現在目前就是這樣所以現在的話說實在我們要提到說要下放到民間企業這是不可能的事情一切都是會在都在後在軍備局這裡好 了解好 以上謝謝"},{"start":6475.45,"end":6479.413,"text":"好謝謝我們接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢好謝謝主席麻煩部長請郭部長軍備局長軍備局長"},{"start":6501.711,"end":6522.389,"text":"我今天先不從個案來談我們先講一個大的架構就是說國防供應鏈我們一直希望能夠在台灣自給自足盡量的滿足因為這不僅是經濟跟產業這也牽涉到我們的戰備眾生所以怎麼樣把供應鏈的眾生擴大"},{"start":6524.418,"end":6541.999,"text":"這是一個命題但是擴大之後他來投標我們今天看到有人在資格上質疑有疑慮做這個怎麼做那個做馬桶的怎麼做抗氮板做裝潢的怎麼來做炸藥在資格上有人在這上面有疑慮那我們應該好好的面對這個問題"},{"start":6543.68,"end":6554.193,"text":"第一個我們在投標上我發現我們國防部在說明的是第一個基本條件叫做合法基本條件可能他的營業登記項目可能資本額"},{"start":6555.253,"end":6582.367,"text":"那部長也是法律人坦白講在台灣這個基本條件的符合比較容易那個有一個凱斯國際從國宅一路弄到進出口貿易都可以做你只要願意勾你去做營燈的時候你願意勾通通可以勾所以營業項目根本就不是可以刁難的就是造船的他搞不好可以去造飛機做成衣做內衣的他會去做數位迷彩做腳踏車輪框的"},{"start":6584.09,"end":6602.085,"text":"搞不好去做飛彈彈箱我現在講都是有實質的案例做得不錯也就是說基本條件是一個最低的消極資格另外一個叫做專業條件現在被人家挑剔的是這一塊就是說他專業的條件到底有沒有符合所以我們應該要思考所謂的專業條件是什麼"},{"start":6604.967,"end":6632.547,"text":"合理的專業條件是什麼他就可以進入到這個產業我們可以擴大我們眾生我們希望原來在做機密機械的他可以來造飛機啊我們希望原來那個其實CNC車床要來做砲管做彈藥貴姐手拿啦他那個技術上是雷同的就是說我怎麼樣讓他跨過那個專業的門檻所以只看基本條件容易被人質疑專業不足那但是如果只重視過去時機"},{"start":6634.977,"end":6660.473,"text":"我都懷疑這次有人怎麼這個那個沒有做如果只重視過去的時機就犯我們過去幾十年台灣的軍工業長期被同一群人把持價格高品質差而且根本不是自己做他轉個手找別人來做我相信在這邊夠資深的或者資深的媒體記者應該都知道過去的軍工業就是那一群人然後投標資格交榜上過去五年內有沒有供應什麼有沒有做什麼"},{"start":6661.454,"end":6675.345,"text":"連我們中科院那個塔台的東西只因為民航局加一個過去有時機就通通沒辦法處理所以這兩個要平衡我不知道部長有沒有認同我這樣講法就是說我們在建構戰略這個供應鏈的縱深它的重要性是什麼"},{"start":6677.356,"end":6691.101,"text":"我想就今天大家在質疑的這個案子它的一個重點就是說它不是屬於國內有自治產能的如果屬於有國內自治產能的譬如說我們通常會有一些工程的案子那我們就會要求它有時機"},{"start":6692.901,"end":6721.343,"text":"時機嘛但是問題是這個不是有國內自治產品這我們國內沒辦法做啦對 所以他的重點在條件上面來講也就是他在履約的時候他最重要最重要就是要拿到輸出國的輸出許可對 所以部長我現在要講的就這一塊專業條件要讓國人了解比方說我在國內的過去的實質的績效其實只能當指標一我建議軍備局可以我們本來就有防場制度嘛我們要確保都是made in Taiwan嘛"},{"start":6722.609,"end":6736.717,"text":"這家公司願意投入他有沒有買相關的機台有沒有取得相關技術的認證這是在國內的生產我去房產你根本就沒有啊你沒有機台你沒有這樣的材料你跟我說你賣的在台灣我都懷疑過減稅你知道嗎"},{"start":6738.158,"end":6752.344,"text":"從那邊繞到越南過來的所以我們本來現有機制就有國內生產過去有實質績效我們還要仿廠你的機台符不符合標準你的製程有沒有經過認證你的材料在哪裡取得的有沒有Made in China的材料這個是國內的"},{"start":6753.604,"end":6771.422,"text":"那我們在專業背景上應該要加上就是說如果是對外採購的輸出國的輸出許可這個其實屬於專業的部分那個輸出許可要拿到國務院認證沒那麼簡單輸出國的許可還有一種是比方說我們的F16或者我們一些像對美採購的軍品"},{"start":6772.663,"end":6798.386,"text":"它的維修維保是要認證的有沒有取得原廠跟美方的認證或者我們跟某一國買的某一個機台有沒有取得該國的輸出許可該國的原廠的技術認證這個叫專業背景所以如果某公司過去可能做某個行業是跟軍工業無關可是發現這有商機他公司要擴大投資那我就要看在國內你有什麼機台你有什麼能量"},{"start":6799.187,"end":6824.992,"text":"你如果是要進口你有沒有輸出國的輸出許可你如果是進來的是技術跟服務你有沒有得到認證跟授權我這樣講應該沒錯嘛所以就是說我想以這個不同的這個方式我們有不同的這個有關的一些對他的一些履驗能力的一個審核對 所以我在這一頁我要提醒軍備局就是說不能全部只看過去的時機那會被少數人壟斷"},{"start":6826.112,"end":6853.779,"text":"可是你在開發新的供應商的時候一定要注意到他的能耐他的國內生產的量能跟原物料的來源如果是進口商的話他有沒有取得相關國家政府的認證許可等等這個叫做專業背景所以現在呢叫做這個岳飛打張飛嘛你就拿消極的基本條件去打專業條件做馬桶是哪裡對不起你祖上八代了啦"},{"start":6856.158,"end":6869.656,"text":"坐腳踏車的是哪裡做錯了為什麼要瞧不起這些行業呢所以我這邊第二頁就看了我後來去找了一下資料合成我們從小就知道合成是做馬桶做磁磚的啊可是合成現在做抗盪磚甲"},{"start":6871.118,"end":6898.147,"text":"人家有投入這樣的設備去做做得好不好你們去驗 我不幫他背書或者像宏森宏森是美方認為是世界一流的車業一般來做基準的那我們現在講這個做漁船的怎麼跑來做軍艦的那個車業那外行的嘛或者像全訓全訓它是做半導體原件製造的它現在轉過來做相關功率的又比方說榮德造船它本來是做客輪的它現在做軍工的"},{"start":6899.167,"end":6912.853,"text":"另外我剛才提到的有一家玩具公司我們小時候買玩具是買他們家的講他名字也沒關係那個雷虎雷虎是做玩具的做玩具的怎麼跑來做無人機還要丟炸彈"},{"start":6914.249,"end":6941.529,"text":"那就荒謬嘛人家已經轉型或者擴大增加產能我一樣我提例子我對這些公司行號我們也沒有背書你們還是要依照專業去我只告訴說台灣的中小企業很厲害啦以前埃及要買漁網做皮箱的明天就做漁網啦以前跑到阿拉伯飛機都不會坐阿拉伯我們不會講在地上沙子上畫圖他就可以交鐵鎚給他彈性很高但是我們軍方的採購不能看這個我剛才講"},{"start":6943.171,"end":6958.604,"text":"他的專業的成分有沒有具備所以像剛才講某一個腳踏車做輪框的做輪框的我也是在媒體撈到這家這家公司做輪框的現在他用那個特殊材質做我們的飛彈箱做得不錯啊"},{"start":6959.696,"end":6986.631,"text":"所以這裡面重點在哪裡呢有一些行業是從本業延伸擴大比方說原來合成是做陶瓷他把本業往前延伸做抗蕩陶瓷這叫本業延伸有的叫跨業投資本來呢我是做這一個比方說本來呢像我來舉個例子比方說像全訓原來做的是半導體他現在轉過來做這一項"},{"start":6989.212,"end":7000.18,"text":"舉個另外跟我們行業無關的像台塑 它是做塑膠的啊可是廠跟醫院我們都知道是台塑的我們現在要不要開個記者會這塑膠的看起來好像開心中啦"},{"start":7002.121,"end":7030.883,"text":"罔顧人命你不會被笑死嗎他跨業我們要看的是什麼我們要看的是他的產品跟服務有沒有符合買方的需求有沒有達標價格及技術是否具備競爭優勢我們如果是看資格的那就要看他的資格限制如果是比價的就是看價格有沒有比人家低大概就看這兩個我們是買方我不管你原來做什麼行業的你的消極資格符合你的專業背景的資格有取得輸出許可"},{"start":7031.203,"end":7056.244,"text":"那就來比價你敢押標你沒辦法履約的話我就要沒收你幾千萬的押標金我確保買方也就是軍方消費者可以買到合格的 達標的甚至於相對品質比較好或相對價格比較低的這才叫做一個完整的採購鏈我們才能去建構台灣不同行業要跨界去進入到軍工業建構我們的軍工供應鏈戰備眾生我不知道我這樣講部長認不認同"},{"start":7058.166,"end":7076.162,"text":"所以不同的這個我想相關的公安有不同的履業能力的要求那我還是再次強調原物料的從國外進口的他重點就在於說他能不能拿到當地政府的這個輸出許可的一個證明而且拿到這個原廠製造的證明文件那個叫做專業背景嗎"},{"start":7076.922,"end":7101.03,"text":"對 那這個拿得到我想他才會可能來進行投標因為他不然會面臨無法履約的風險這些個案我們原來也都沒有去探究是有人提出來我們才去看他原來做什麼行業他到底是本業延伸或者多角化跨業投資我管你投資什麼重要是我要跟你買的時候你交付的東西合不合我的要求有沒有具備專業背景而專業背景 國內製造背景"},{"start":7103.631,"end":7131.964,"text":"進出口商有進出口商的專業要求所以單純從他營業項目挑一項他做這個做麵包的怎麼跑來做這個我覺得這樣子是邏輯跳太快以外他其實在摧毀台灣建構這一個供應鏈的縱深的過程那內容如果有人模不章違法該送辦就送辦但是你不能把這個模式整個說不行一定保障原來有在做軍工業有時機的那其他的都不行那我們怎麼擴大"},{"start":7133.004,"end":7154.34,"text":"怎麼產生競爭力或怎麼引進新創Enduro原來不是在做軍工業的Enduro原來是在做資訊的或者以色列某一個廠商他原來是在做駭客的現在他擴大他做防駭客所以這個東西其實在軍工業裡面國防部要嚴格把關就是基本條件跟專業條件而專業條件最容易"},{"start":7158.503,"end":7184.286,"text":"綁住特定人這一個要很橫平的去做處理所以我希望軍備局就這個課題確實人家說做這個行業怎麼現在來做這個那就要好好說明基本條件符合專業條件在哪裡他的專業條件他有拿到美國政府或者國務院或者相關的輸出許可他的交貨要押標多少那如果不能達標我要沒收而這一個火藥是在國內根本沒辦法生產一定要對外採購的"},{"start":7185.347,"end":7200.801,"text":"那任何人取得輸出許可都來投標嘛價低者得 品質高者得嘛這樣子完整來論述比較和平否則揭露這些攻擊這些甚至於哪一些有的沒有的去牽扯我就說台灣的所有你去看營業登記"},{"start":7202.182,"end":7221.384,"text":"那個勾的選項多到你會覺得很好笑做不蠟甲的 做內衣的這邊搞不好在做五金你知道嗎做水桶的這邊呢在做那一個汽車的什麼電零件的台灣的中小企業那個營業登記就像凱斯國際一樣可以一直勾一直勾一直勾無限勾啊你只要不違法我們沒有什麼可以非難他的"},{"start":7222.325,"end":7237.905,"text":"所以以上就這一個部分我反而是透過這個案例希望軍備局跟相關單位在軍事採購上國內採購我們應該要具備哪些基本條件跟專業條件而專業條件不要拘泥於既有的應該去限定房產技術授權"},{"start":7239.867,"end":7269.495,"text":"那如果是採購的我們國內沒有製造對外採購的他要具備哪些要件把它寫清楚讓國人知道這一個不是單純那一句話挑他一個營業項目然後連結到他這個採購案所以這樣不行那不行那我們這炸藥不要買這種性能的炸藥其實是有必要的那不買爽到誰高興到誰所以以上這一個是這個部分那我多問一題馬防部的這一題我一直覺得很好奇"},{"start":7271.682,"end":7299.647,"text":"馬防部的案子我就不再細說了我其實覺得很痛心一個市官長 市都二等長 三等長或上市加上外島家籍 作戰家籍每個月薪水你說好或不好比社會大眾來看其實還算可以怎麼會為了每個月兩千塊到三四千塊錢去把賬號出租給詐騙集團而且看起來是整串的變成賈鶴到修法"},{"start":7300.546,"end":7327.12,"text":"那我要問的基本解問題現在涉案人數到底多少是367還是30億我想就這個部分因為現在檢調單位在偵查我想我們也不適宜公開在這邊軍方自己應該有去調查我們現在現役的涉案有多少我想有啊 那天你們有公佈啊那個數字有沒有更動嘛就請參謀長來說報委員 這個"},{"start":7330.697,"end":7359.727,"text":"入軍面對這樣的事情我們是嚴肅和審慎面對實際上現在可以比較第一個剛才部長說這個整個是目前是連江地檢所在調查那我只能在那邊說目前比較精確和承認的確定的是有7位那其他因為他的涉案的程度有認罪的7位那其他涉案程度跟金流的流向這些東西都還要那個偵查不公開我尊重"},{"start":7360.487,"end":7389.865,"text":"就军方的掌握犯罪的起始点到底是什么时候这不是短期间可以变那么多人有的人一开始怕怕不敢一定是很长大家都没事那一个多一个每个月多两三千这个犯罪的起始点目前我们军方是有掌握但是我这边还是因为起始点牵涉到不能惩处错人刚去三个月的刚去一个月的惩处我觉得没道理已经移开一两年的搞不好是他的管理放纵啊"},{"start":7391.36,"end":7393.647,"text":"有沒有陣戰人員牽扯在裡面 目前"},{"start":7395.41,"end":7421.406,"text":"跟委員報告 我想我們這個部門會檢討馬航部跟各級幹部就馬航部各級幹部的一個都管書者那我們現在除了將指揮官跟南竿守備大隊長調離縣子以外我們相關的這些都管幹部的我們併案來檢討事成所以部長 這個案子我們常常講莫非定律會發生在馬祖我就擔心發生在其他地方"},{"start":7422.326,"end":7442.359,"text":"那這件事情我覺得關鍵點是什麼時候開始的如果是兩年前開始從一個變兩個兩個變八個八個變多少一直變那70點那個時候到底是怎麼開始的那時候的管理權責是誰該負責弄到最後變成幾十個人的時候事情就很嚴重了因為最嚴重不僅是跟詐騙集團勾結"},{"start":7443.88,"end":7470.677,"text":"最嚴重是這些資料如果丟給共諜網絡我掌握你這些不名譽的事情你要乖乖交出資料否則我一揭露你就沒工作這一個國安的破洞就是露在那裡因為軍人很怕 你知道軍人連車禍都會害怕我車禍 長官知道會處分我有時候亂處分沒道理啦就軍人很怕有糾紛長官究責我就要背鍋這個事情這些人的名字如果詐騙集團跟對岸的合作"},{"start":7471.858,"end":7493.672,"text":"這些很容易被逼的 只好配合這個不僅是詐騙漏洞 這也是國安漏洞所以歧視點或相關的情形 我們相關保防督查至少一份報告給本席跟委員會 好不好該用保密的保密 但我們要知道到底什麼時候開始的 怎麼擴大開始我們調查完畢 我們這邊會做一個報告"},{"start":7499.862,"end":7504.244,"text":"謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席有請顧部長那麼等一下質詢當中如果有其他列席的官員需要補充的就請自行上台不好意思請顧部長"},{"start":7531.233,"end":7546.564,"text":"部長早因為我們今天的題目很聚焦所以大家其實問的都差不多那麼我想部長藉這個機會也都做了一些澄清不過本席要提醒的是本席在第一時間看到PTT上面的爆料的時候也提醒了國防部"},{"start":7547.685,"end":7551.749,"text":"因為這一個標案它是在12月10號絕標公告之後在網路的PTT上面下午的2點03分就已經發文開始質疑這一家得標廠商的資格不符包括它的主要的經營登記的事項等等"},{"start":7569.884,"end":7596.344,"text":"特別用這種方式就是所謂片段的資訊來帶風向質疑國防部在所謂的軍事採購上面的標案有問題而馬上的在三個小時之後也就是剛好5點03分的時候國民黨的王宏威委員也發文質疑了這件事情接下來12月12號國民黨也召開了記者會那麼來質疑我必須要提醒的是"},{"start":7597.125,"end":7601.389,"text":"這一連串會不會是有意針對我們11月25號公布的8年1.25兆的軍事採購特別預算而來我想問部長的是部長什麼時候知道開始面對從網路再到在野黨的相關的質疑那麼我們國防部開記者會我知道國防部有出來開記者會開記者會的時間點是什麼時候"},{"start":7625.185,"end":7648.505,"text":"呃 我們是 我這邊是應該是王宏威委員來的事我有看到相關他的新聞那我們在進行了解嘛是 那花了多少時間來進行了解呃 應該是蠻短的吧應該是我們就一天當天當天嗎 就是等於12月10號可不可以說明一下"},{"start":7649.929,"end":7670.067,"text":"是 我們當獲得到這個資訊的時候我們就立即沒有停止查證這個整個這個原案這個案子的始末但是是不是其實在解釋的過程中沒有像今天部長講的這麼清楚我要提醒的是從之前我質疑海昆號的時候我就說過了有關於現在我們任何的軍事尤其是"},{"start":7671.375,"end":7691.931,"text":"軍事採購又或者是我們在國防自主跟軍備有關的部分的時候是很容易透過片段性的資訊然後引發國人的不安尤其是導到後來的時候已經做下結論是說來什麼什麼賣馬桶的也可以做活躍所以未來我們8年1.25兆"},{"start":7694.793,"end":7700.077,"text":"的這個國防預算是不是也會出現同樣的狀況我必須提醒國防部如果這是一個認知作戰的啟動那麼你們的速度更要加快因為第一時間我說實話我就丟了相關的資訊請你們告訴我答案跟做澄清但是我必須講到了今天至少召委安排今天這樣的一個專報"},{"start":7714.286,"end":7723.172,"text":"可以讓部長還有其他單位把事情解釋清楚但是問題是今天已經是12月15號已經經過將近要一個禮拜的發酵了如果可以我認為其實應該要有更多具體的說明這個國人才能夠對我們接下來的國防的軍事採購甚至於軍備上面的整建有信心"},{"start":7738.035,"end":7759.361,"text":"是 我想委員的指教是非常清楚那麼整個案子確實我們在第一時間主要是清查了前五年的整個一個個案狀況那麼因為清查其實需要一些時間那麼這一次我們把往前推20年所有個案狀況通通查出來那這樣子可能說明會更清楚一點那當然如何在最短的時間裡面針對問題"},{"start":7761.161,"end":7776.349,"text":"然後針對一些疑點來去向社會大眾做一個明確的解釋避免這些錯假訊息或者是認知操作有它的空間這是我們要持續努力好 我必須講這也是一套組合拳啦但是我也必須說就像剛剛部長一直強調的歷經了20年其實這些採購的標準沒有變那麼這20年來當總統的不是只有民進黨"},{"start":7783.473,"end":7786.355,"text":"還有國民黨也有馬英九也就是說這一連串的採購但是為什麼會在這個時候反而有關於報告上面也寫得非常清楚了就是廠商的合格的登記然後國際的這個所謂貿易的項目還有就是完稅證明其實20年來都沒有變化也沒有變化但是為什麼在這個時候會變成命題會不會是因為真的部長這就是因為現在我們"},{"start":7811.491,"end":7838.68,"text":"有另外8年1.25兆的國防預算要來了我只能夠說我們國家的這個身處特殊的一個國際環境那麼火藥原物料的取得確實是不容易的一件事情所以我們才會去清查過去20年到底是如何來進行這樣一個招標那我們也查資都是採公開招標都廠商的資格都沒有變"},{"start":7839.58,"end":7860.197,"text":"但是我們還是希望這些商員不要受到惡意的破壞干擾因為確實是不容易那如果受到干擾我們採購會變得蠻困難的那所以有一些誇大不實的渲染已經確實對我們國安安全已經造成了嚴重的危害"},{"start":7860.874,"end":7869.49,"text":"其實部長我想問一個比較輕鬆的啦就是說過去在這20年當中有沒有人真的是大剌剌說我是軍火商我是軍火商我來投標"},{"start":7872.096,"end":7891.323,"text":"有嗎過去其實說實話本席在跑很多新聞的時候多半幕後就說某某軍火商或某某太太但是這些人的背後其實也都是貿易商不是嗎那所以說我想知道的是如果就現在在野黨的質疑的話未來是不是我們要以標的為所謂某某軍火商"},{"start":7894.884,"end":7909.782,"text":"我來投標了這樣子才符合現在質疑的標準不然的話就像剛剛我很認同王定宇委員所提的很多的企業他們會做轉型本來我也提出了像比如YAMAHA做樂器的但他們現在也做引擎也做其他相關的這種軍工產業"},{"start":7912.045,"end":7914.668,"text":"那如果是這樣的話是不是這些產業都不能轉型做馬桶的一輩子要做馬桶然後呢蓋房子的一輩子要蓋房子只要他們做轉移就會被質疑那麼接下來我們是不是就是只有標明說我是軍火商我才能來賣火藥"},{"start":7929.554,"end":7955.416,"text":"我想重點就是這個廠商不管他的公司名稱是什麼那他只要有能夠從事國際貿易的業務那能夠拿到原廠的授權然後而且交貨經過光部嚴格的測試驗收合格合法的旅約這個才是一個重點因為他交不出貨我們就沒收旅約保證金並刊登停權這個就是一個最直接"},{"start":7956.557,"end":7983.756,"text":"對他的不能履業的一個監督那所以每一個會來投票場都是會要想清楚的好 其實我也非常認同啦就是過去台灣的環境當中我們曾經有經歷過是想買武器錢準備好了其實是買不到的會有各種的阻撓然後讓這些人根本無法順利的把我們所需要的軍備或者是相關的這種軍備所需要的原物料拿到我們台灣買"},{"start":7984.897,"end":7997.882,"text":"輸入到我們台灣的手上所以最重要的其實對我們來講我們是甲方能夠讓對方乙方履約我想這是最重要的但是同樣的我也要問喔就是沈記長在立法院的質詢當中提出了這個部分本來我要再接著質詢不過剛剛中科院有特別提到了那就是"},{"start":8006.025,"end":8026.438,"text":"沈記長的話到底是沒有完整的被陳述還是說沈記長所點出來的問題沒有被國防部或中科院重視到底是真的中科院變成了所謂的家族事業嗎然後偽造的工廠中科院真的沒有辦法來辨認他們嗎 來 院長"},{"start":8031.26,"end":8052.157,"text":"我們第一個我們先講家族事業好了這個按照行政法人法第20條的規定行政法人的首長和董事不得推薦三等級以內的人員進入這個行政法人來服務當然我們中科院規定的設置條例更嚴格我們是針對所有主管都不能推薦三等級以內的人親屬進來服務"},{"start":8053.678,"end":8077.13,"text":"那當然就是說中科院有一萬多個員工我們相對是屬於比較封閉型的業務性質所以我們裡面的夫妻裡面有73%是入院以後才結婚的就造成這個比例比較高但是這個我們也沒辦法明確去禁止那會變成如果就審計部的審計出來的規範的話那會不會變成要求他們其中有一位要離職"},{"start":8078.688,"end":8083.213,"text":"因為他們是入院後才結婚我現在提出來不是要求而是這個會變成是審計部如果用到這個講法的話進去了認識了聯誼才結婚其實我相信很多比較封閉的環境一定會是這樣因為他們沒有機會但是如果審計部拿這個來做他們審計的要求的時候那會不會變成這樣"},{"start":8103.36,"end":8125.159,"text":"入院以後結婚我們當然不會在此限但是我們會把它的業務盡量不會有重疊的關係就是希望盡量讓他們在業務上面不要變成一條龍的狀態把它調到其他的部分另外剛剛你有特別提到的就是希望財政部的關務署能夠協助你們在報關上面做一個連線的部分那麼什麼時候溝通過"},{"start":8129.929,"end":8147.882,"text":"審計部的報告出來以後我們就直接用審計部的報告去跟關務署協調過好 那莫名得道的回覆是什麼因為我們不屬於公部門所以沒有辦法直接連線所以是跟財政部嗎關務署關務署回覆你們就說因為不是公部門那可不可以借用主席最後一點時間就是這樣子的連線"},{"start":8150.023,"end":8153.888,"text":"它可以造成什麼好的影響我覺得這個其實在質詢上面是必須講的雖然你們不是公部門那你們是行政法人但是我認為這個就是一個讓我們軍購跟軍事採購上面能夠更加透明化的一個方向"},{"start":8167.967,"end":8171.809,"text":"就是如果關務署可以給予這樣的連線好處是什麼如果沒有這個你們現在現行上遇到的狀況是什麼我必須說因為本席剛好過去是來自於台政委員會我剛剛聽到之後我非常在意這個問題如果他是有助於能夠讓我們軍事採購更透明化的話那我們就要努力的去做協調甚至於本席來做協調都沒有問題因為這個也可以杜絕今天我們在討論的這個題目上面大家認為的就是來源不明"},{"start":8197.682,"end":8201.168,"text":"或者是來源可能出問題或是來源去佐證或舉證的時候造成的所謂不必要的紛擾爭議或者是抹黑跟委員報告"},{"start":8209.662,"end":8233.43,"text":"關於中科院跟關務署原本是沒有連線的那經過我們這幾天我們跟部長跟我們相關單位我們研討這是一個可行就杜絕而後這些事情我們下期會研討來跟關務署來做好相關的協調是否把中科院納入直接可以連線的部分還有我們軍備局也許可以透過軍備局吧如果我們再跟關務署協調"},{"start":8234.73,"end":8256.422,"text":"好 我認為這樣的一個過程當中就像剛剛子薰也特別提到過的如果可以明確的了解產地然後輸出的地方 輸入的地方我覺得這個是有助於讓整體的軍事採購更加的透明化我期許有從這個方向如果需要的話本席都願意來做協助跟溝通好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林祖英委員的發言謝謝喝口水喝口水"},{"start":8269.403,"end":8272.846,"text":"我們下面請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長 區備局局長還有中科院院長部長好"},{"start":8294.72,"end":8316.434,"text":"今天有非常多位的委員其實我們有在討論這一個高爆彈藥RDX這個採購還有包括我們的HMX所有的採購大家為什麼會質疑不是因為他跨業去做如果他有很好的能力很好的研發大家不會有意見"},{"start":8317.555,"end":8331.973,"text":"今天合成為什麼可以做抗彈板中科院非常清楚因為那是中科院的科研的經費跟他合作他要做的是裝甲車的抗彈板對不對今天所以他不是因為他做馬桶來做這個是類比的"},{"start":8335.217,"end":8343.739,"text":"今天如果台塑他本來是做塑膠可是他去開醫院重點是幫病人開刀的是醫生所以你必須要一步一步到位你必須要有相當的專業你必須要達到這樣的條件今天大家質疑的是這個部分我們如果回過頭來說過去20年來"},{"start":8361.583,"end":8363.844,"text":"大家看過相關的記錄我們把它導回正題我們把它劃對重點今天大家的重點就是這一家廠商到底具不具備因為他不是採購一般的東西他買的是高爆彈藥如果像你們講的他不用有時機他只要有履約能力你怎麼判斷他的履約能力"},{"start":8383.072,"end":8387.033,"text":"他的規模小他的資本額少他也沒有過去的時機然後他也不是做這個本業的他也沒有相關的軍工經驗我不知道我們為什麼可以去認為他就有這樣的時機過去國防部或者很多相關的官員也在這個台上跟我們所有委員會不管所有的委員都說海昆艦輸出許可一定可以拿到"},{"start":8410.982,"end":8413.664,"text":"為什麼他可以得標就是因為他可以拿到輸出許可可是我們看現在的結果在過去有很多的經驗如果國防部要得標的廠商很多有委員質疑說這樣可能會被綁住隨便寫一個時機他就可以一直做一直做"},{"start":8430.565,"end":8439.168,"text":"這個就是過去的弊端可是我們也不是在這裡你這個都可以隨便把它取消掉的我想請教一下軍備局長剛剛你有提到說我們現在買回來的到底是什麼東西你買回來的到底是什麼東西RDSRDS你在上面寫得清清楚楚嘛"},{"start":8449.352,"end":8455.999,"text":"所以你回來還要再經過強酸的強硫酸洗還要乾化不用了不用嘛你剛剛提出來讓大家覺得是你還要經過這樣的程序喔我剛剛解釋的是我們205廠也有產RTS它的原料是烏洛托瓶然後經過消化然後把它炸 是我剛剛是這樣說"},{"start":8471.596,"end":8492.868,"text":"所以讓所有的委員很清楚的知道你買的不是原料因為RDX你在上面的採購招標上面其實寫得清清楚楚就是RDXRDX如果它為什麼會不好做 換你它只有三個主要成分你只有六亞甲基一氏胺 還有硝酸 還有胺硝酸胺就是這是三種東西"},{"start":8494.909,"end":8500.654,"text":"他要把它做成RDX是比較困難的在你過去你也不是沒有量能因為第一時間提供給部長的資訊是錯誤的說我們國內沒有量能 不對國內有量能只是因為我們國內廠商沒有量能啊"},{"start":8511.792,"end":8522.037,"text":"我們自己可以做就是有量能我們軍備局我們現在在外購的時候部長沒關係啦我當然不會講到我們軍備局啊所以那個委員不給我拿著我兩句話的時候只好講個廠商兩個字說我在說謊啊這我不能接受啊部長有人說你說謊嗎你是律師我說你說謊嗎你從哪裡聽來我看到新聞報導啊要出來"},{"start":8532.623,"end":8536.764,"text":"你掉出來說謊量能如果軍備局可以跟廠商一樣可以做RDX他就是一樣也是廠商啊他賣給中科院啊再賣給我們國軍啊那他也是廠商啊你今天有很多過去他們做一些服裝做抗彈板也是賣給國軍啊那他也是廠商如果你要用這樣子去抓雨病的話那我們今天就可以把它說清楚"},{"start":8557.631,"end":8575.586,"text":"我們要說的是他們提供給你是錯誤的資訊我們不是沒有量能而是你現在如果要增加你可能要必須要外購所以要增加這樣子的一個量能而不是我們沒有這是第一點要說的所以我們今天要談到的不是像剛剛有很多委員提到的說大家還要帶什麼風向這個要帶什麼風向你所有的過去的廠商有資格的"},{"start":8584.733,"end":8611.064,"text":"中科院我想要請教一下這一次這家廠商他在三月拿到我們HMX的標案他在增加這個營業項目的時候只有短短三個月他是先拿到輸出許可嗎不是所以他沒有輸出許可可是你們把一億多的標案給他了嘛對不對是經過三次招標"},{"start":8612.415,"end":8615.558,"text":"為什麼過去你們這個不是第一次啊中科院做那麼多的飛彈飛彈是我們國內的強項你也做雄二你也做雄三你也做天空你做過很多所有的飛彈砲彈你都有需要這樣子的一些原料可是過去這些廠商為什麼不來標為什麼都留標為什麼只有一家廠商其實RDS跟HMX都一樣啊"},{"start":8636.198,"end":8651.991,"text":"他都是在絕標的次日期他一定的日期之內他要取得外國政務或授權許可或核發輸出許可證明啊他也就是要有把握他才會來投標啊那我們並沒有在招標資格上面訂定這個資格但是他還是要提出這樣的文件他才有可能履約啊你剛剛有聽到我問我們的中科院長嗎你有聽到他回答嗎他有拿到輸出許可嗎"},{"start":8663.3,"end":8680.466,"text":"他現在已經在9月30號他在標的時候有拿到輸出許可嗎我們這個案子也在標的時候沒有要求他拿到輸出許可啊所以為什麼你們會認定他可以嗎我們20年來都是如此啊都是在絕標之後的一定時間內去拿到輸出許可啊你的海昆號就不是"},{"start":8682.847,"end":8687.812,"text":"我們這一個是原物料 一個是海昆電你們不能夠拿兩種完全的東西來做類比這是我們的高爆敗尿一天我們要做很多包括我們的特別預算裡面有2400億"},{"start":8697.142,"end":8698.764,"text":"除了做船以外做了很多的飛彈那時候我們都沒有缺你今天在這一家廠商在他通過去年12月剛通過的時候你可以拿到我們HMX還有這個還比RDX更危險喔"},{"start":8712.702,"end":8718.025,"text":"我們先來提一下這個廠商他自己說的聲明裡面有什麼樣的狀況部長請冷靜的聽因為你是法律人你應該很清楚我們今天質疑的是這個不是一般的東西你今天如果是買車輛你今天如果是買救護車你今天如果是買其他的東西大家可能可以接受今天你這個廠商他本身因為不是過去通通沒有"},{"start":8740.718,"end":8755.581,"text":"HMX這個過去有很多家廠商長期以來在做你都說你可以回溯過去20年的這樣的一個履約的資歷表示有很多人做因為我們的熊二熊三也不是現在才做所以這些東西早就有進口MX它是美國的其實這個更危險你們有沒有隱藏啊"},{"start":8764.315,"end":8768.699,"text":"RDX也沒有理由隱藏我們一直在講說我們現在採購多困難它有什麼困難這個廠商自己都說只有中國和印度他就提兩個國家我們先看他昨天的回應我們把它分成兩套邏輯因為他大概自己分成兩套邏輯然後他兩段敘事"},{"start":8789.005,"end":8793.528,"text":"他把它寫成讓一般人老實說不是看得太懂因為他說他拿到美國的授權讓大家覺得他很有專業性可是剛剛我們的中科院長說他在這之前他根本沒有拿到我們的輸出許可那他有拿到授權不是因為這家廠商美國這個是因為中科院所以才給我們這樣的授權這個必須要很清楚的釐清他是為了那家廠商給的嗎"},{"start":8820.006,"end":8843.117,"text":"美國是為了那家廠商給的在短短三個月的時間因為他有強調這家公司他強調美國軍工大廠十年的授權問題是這一份授權在中科院的標案上面用的這個不是軍備局的RDX的採購案因為這是給中科院的他的採購不用政府採購法"},{"start":8844.238,"end":8852.823,"text":"中科院的採購是不需要政府採購法這個是比較容易的所以先取得中科院這樣子的一個標案其實應該是比較容易按照政府採購法在辦理這個採購案沒關係 因為採購法這個部分我們今天要討論的重點並不是這個"},{"start":8860.367,"end":8862.248,"text":"因為採購法上面你們要怎麼樣去讓他可以可以勉強通過或模糊其實都沒有關係我們現在比較質疑的是你先你剛剛說他是先拿到授權嗎他有拿到授權嗎10年"},{"start":8876.633,"end":8882.998,"text":"幫我確定那個我先跟委員講我們HMX的採購過程沒有啦沒關係你簡單講就好時間的關係簡單講就是說以前我們沒有講這個案子講這個案子以前的來源沒有來投標他拿到授權他拿到授權這一家公司拿到這個大廠的十年授權還是中科院不能保障"},{"start":8895.549,"end":8923.585,"text":"他只有拿到授權但是他昨天講十年獨家代理這個我不敢幫他保證所以你們在他得標的內容上面只是因為沒有三家廠商只有他一家來這是唯一的條件第一次招標沒有廠商第二次是另外一家公司投標但是超過底價所以沒有決標第三次變成只有他這一家來而且是在我們的底價範圍之內所以才決標所以你也不敢幫他保證他有沒有授權對不對"},{"start":8925.406,"end":8939.485,"text":"獨家代理就請他拿出輸出許可證明後來他就拿到了但他拿到輸出許可證明就代表他的確接到授權了這個就是問題點你今天先說我們拿到授權"},{"start":8940.626,"end":8945.791,"text":"他因為他得標了嘛今天為什麼他可以拿到輸出許可是因為他拿到中科院的標案用我們的標案再去美國拿這個在座的各位應該都非常清楚他為什麼可以拿到因為拿到我們的標案再去取得這樣子的這樣子的一個輸出許可是比較容易的因為美國不會平白無故因為他過去20年來我們得標的廠商全部都是國際貿易業者"},{"start":8967.27,"end":8969.874,"text":"外面也都是在決標之後一定時間拿到這個輸出許可部長 這個你已經講過了我現在講的是我們提的意見跟看法因為他就是拿了我們的這個標案以後他才去取得這樣的輸出許可"},{"start":8983.394,"end":8987.397,"text":"這個也是 這就是你們的程序啊這就是你們的程序因為你先讓他得標了嘛我們現在再來看看因為美國他不會平白無故授權一家去年12月才變更項目然後沒有軍工履歷沒有相關進出口紀錄這樣子的一個廠商"},{"start":9002.606,"end":9006.771,"text":"他相信的是我們國家還有中科院這是第一點第二個福邁的這個聲明他也把它拆成兩段我們可以看到他第一段用中科院的授權來讓他的專業性可以提升第二段他講到軍備局的RDX"},{"start":9021.42,"end":9028.044,"text":"他講了兩個國家他說中國跟印度所以可見你不可能跟中國買那其實他的來源就是印度可是這兩件事其實是不同的標案它也是不同的系統我們要說的中科院其實它是"},{"start":9037.39,"end":9061.356,"text":"比較不需要政府採購法當然你要說他用最低標或什麼那都沒關係今天為什麼其他家在你中科院從過去到現在都有能力都有經驗都有軍工背景都有相關的這些資歷的他們全部都沒有來投標這也是應該要去理清楚其實很簡單就是原來要賣那個國家不賣了現在他是重新要去取得美國如果您一定要我講就這麼簡單"},{"start":9067.355,"end":9076.454,"text":"所以這就是我們取的來源不易啊當那個國家不賣的時候我們之後找另外一個國家啊所以這一家廠商他自己去跟美國談"},{"start":9077.594,"end":9079.475,"text":"當然是嗎是啊很好然後你去年12月才變更項目隔年3月拿到標案先拿到已經有授權然後就是你去換授權跟換輸出許可另外RDX的部分印度出口其實是不會受中國影響的"},{"start":9100.137,"end":9117.684,"text":"我們剛剛講了兩個HMX我們並不確定我們並不確定在今天鬧出這麼大的事件之後我們不知道我們沒有我們不知道印度會不會受到影響有什麼樣的影響RDX印度不會賣給我們嗎印度怕中國嗎"},{"start":9119.417,"end":9142.79,"text":"你們的意思是這樣嗎我們不是一直說我們現在國際的關係都很好我剛剛部長有講到一個就是說後來美國不願意賣給我們這個中科院院長在這裡證實一下好不好HMX美國不賣給我們我們之前從來沒有跟美國進過這一次是第一次之前來自於歐洲的一個國家現在不肯再賣給我們了"},{"start":9143.811,"end":9157.47,"text":"對好歐洲的國家不願意來賣給我們可是我們跟美國的關係美國也不會懼怕中共美國其實他要提供給我們的困難度也不高因為他有很多其實是我們中科院或者甚至我們軍備局做完以後其實我們還可以再協助他們"},{"start":9160.794,"end":9172.986,"text":"我們只是沒有直接出售我們也沒有辦法軍售可是在商用的部分其實我們也賣過很多所以就這個部分美國也不會因為只有一家因為大家現在比較關切的就是這個部分所以在這裡我們還是想要最後利用一點時間我想要請教一下我們這一次的標案總共多少金額"},{"start":9184.036,"end":9186.198,"text":"時間有多長預算金額是8.2億那實際5.9億決標所以他的附件上面有一個擴充條款多少錢擴充也是812也是812是的兩個時間點多長我們這一次第一次的組合約我們第一次的組合約起程多長"},{"start":9209.859,"end":9217.65,"text":"數量多少簽約之後的第一批是300天第二批360天沒有 我就是說你的復健後面是幾天"},{"start":9219.571,"end":9245.204,"text":"就是你的擴充合約是幾天擴充是到117年擴充合約是幾天告訴我們幾天因為你分兩個階段嘛你一個就是我們現在的主約擴充合約是可以到117年12月31號我們這一個是第一個是300天是的第一批分兩批第一批要300天簽約後300天交然後第二批是簽約後360天交所以我們的主合約"},{"start":9246.465,"end":9254.047,"text":"也就是說我們的組合約是有六百多天對不對是六百多天大概兩年對不對不是不是 擴充合約的部分是要看我們要不要執行我們有權利不執行下面的履約沒有辦法我們也不會執行我們的軍備局認為沒有這個擴充在外購的需要也不需要擴充請聽我講完我的問題我要的是答案"},{"start":9272.153,"end":9273.675,"text":"我想要請教的因為這個裡面有組合約就是現在的得標的金額5.2億5.9億所以他分兩個階段就是300天跟365天"},{"start":9287.867,"end":9314.065,"text":"360天所以他總共有660天同樣是從簽約簽約期300天和簽約期360天他只是要分兩批最晚時間是360天一年多然後後續的他的擴充條款後擴是可以在117年12月31日前來執行有數量嗎數量也是一樣一樣的數量"},{"start":9317.547,"end":9324.032,"text":"所以他的那個擴充金額為什麼你還是用原來的金額因為你得標的金額已經降下來了可是你擴充合約的金額還是一樣你甚至比第一次的組合約還要高到時候底價的訂定會參考不是部長我們過去沒有前例我們的擴充合約其實不會比我們的組約還要高預算還要高這是基本的不管你所有的發包所有的採購"},{"start":9347.589,"end":9360.095,"text":"那個後擴的那個金額那是預算預算金額來編不是我現在要講的是你為什麼要後擴這樣的金額因為你的金額已經比主約還要高了你後面是9億你後面是9億對不對"},{"start":9369.485,"end":9384.294,"text":"8.2億你的擴充的金額比那個我們現在在這裡請部長做一個決策今天因為過去沒有這樣子的一個案例你都還不知道他好不好你甚至都不知道他的履約的能力好不好這跟我們之前在談到的像我們的"},{"start":9388.888,"end":9391.351,"text":"就是我們的國軍的服裝攻受戰的概念是一樣的你一簽連擴充條約大概長達八年而且高達百億以上這是非常高的而且中間其實幾乎很難讓他有解約的可能"},{"start":9403.908,"end":9427.163,"text":"因為要罰款也罰不了跟委員報告我們的擴充合約就我了解我們有不執行的一個空間我們沒有一定要執行這個擴充合約我剛已經講了擴充合約還要當然還要看他前面的履約的狀況如何他如果履約沒有沒有能夠履約根本沒有後面的擴充第二個我們的捐配給要考量他自己本身的產能如果我們認為已經夠了我們不需要執行後續的擴充合約這個權在我們"},{"start":9431.826,"end":9441.809,"text":"那所以為什麼要簽擴充合約我們只是認為如果他已經有拿到輸出許可了他就有能力輸出許可隨時都可以終止那當然他後續的執行他後續的執行會決定的後面他擴充我們的擴充的這個履驗能力的一個評估"},{"start":9454.133,"end":9466.204,"text":"部長我們現在簡單再來想這個案子因為一個就是他的沒有資歷規模小或者因為你們說要讓大家都有資格嗎只要有貿易條可以有進口國際貿易的這樣的條件因為放寬許多其實就可以來投標"},{"start":9472.47,"end":9476.611,"text":"所以既然他的條件是這樣如果他做得不夠好 你說你可以要擴充條約或不要可是通常你綁了這個以後 因為你現在很明顯的他的擴充條約的金額 他已經遠比他現在標的金額還要高了他現在5.9億 可是你後面的擴充金額是9億不是 8.2億就預算金額嘛 到時候訂的底價一定不會是這個金額嘛"},{"start":9502.332,"end":9510.296,"text":"部長你給他寫在合約上面他就會用那你可不可以在這裡那我們這一次訂的預算金額也是8.2億啊我們的底標是8.2嗎不是啊所以我現在意思就是他明明就可以5.9億可是因為你訂了擴充的金額所以他就一個綁在一個8.2億那你可以要求他說他的擴充的金額不可以高於現在他得標的金額嗎可以嗎合約上面可以訂嗎"},{"start":9530.926,"end":9546.229,"text":"合約上面可以訂嗎因為在招標文件當時我分AB第一階段和後擴第一階段後擴招標文件就已經因為依預算規劃來訂那後來絕標金額是5.9億那我們就不能再去反過來去改變當時招標文件的這個內容"},{"start":9547.17,"end":9550.971,"text":"所以特別在這裡我們現在講的就是你在每一個招標尤其是最近過去還沒有這麼多現在每一個幾乎都有擴充的這個合約擴充條款這些擴充條款已經把那個金額都綁在上面了你今天他可以5.9億標可是你現在卻願意給他8.2億他就是可以有這麼高了沒有願意要給他8.2億委員怎麼可以一直這樣子"},{"start":9574.659,"end":9583.389,"text":"部長 好 那沒關係我們現在要講的是你在合約上面可不可以訂定其實它就不是不可以高於現在的主約的價格可不可以這個事後要等到我們執行擴約的時候我們會來參考這個委員的意見嘛"},{"start":9592.083,"end":9599.471,"text":"我們一定會遵循這個合法的一個情況來辦理公開招標的扣約程序的內容的執行這你非常清楚合約簽訂以後就是這樣的金額今天這就是大家可能比較質疑的我們現在要求一下我們希望可以提供這些相關的一些記錄就是服賣他有保險嗎"},{"start":9615.307,"end":9621.551,"text":"有危險品的乘運能力然後有IMDG申報文件然後有招標單位是不是都有看過那這有沒有防場另外危險品運輸有沒有相關的一些證明的資料這些我們希望其實在過去我們有要求的剛剛有提到我們依照美軍的紀律嘛美軍的規範所以美軍如果怎麼要求我們也這麼要求好不好"},{"start":9643.177,"end":9662.493,"text":"反正後續他會拿到數據的證明他會跟原廠那邊會就這些相關來加以律定嗎這個部分我們要求跟美軍的相關規範是一致的而不是只有選擇性的這個部分在後續再提供給我們謝謝謝謝委員下面請吳宗憲委員質詢"},{"start":9689.673,"end":9697.179,"text":"主席我這邊先有一個會議詢問報告主席我想請教一個有個東西我想先提出來就是"},{"start":9699.589,"end":9708.337,"text":"我們這邊可不可以請我想請主席才是我們可不可以要求委員會正式發文這稱公共工程委員會 廉政署"},{"start":9709.349,"end":9723.374,"text":"省紀部針對國防部近五年來火藥原物料採購涉及本案還有本案啟動專案調查跟集合我想這個部分因為這是針對國防部的RDX採購5.9億的採購案結果主席有開過記者會還有剛剛我一路這樣子"},{"start":9730.876,"end":9757.297,"text":"看下來有多位委員提出他有提出非常多的質疑點那也引發社會的質疑我想國防部是拿了人民最多的納稅錢去發生這樣荒腔走板的採購案那這個不是冰山一角這都人民的血汗錢這也凸顯出國防部採購制度有很大的弊病我想提出來就報紙第一個內部監督機制是完全失靈專業被長官一致凌駕那第二個"},{"start":9759.319,"end":9786.372,"text":"濫用刑事上面的合法剛主席您的質詢裡面有提到很多這個點他用濫用刑事上面的合法來掩蓋實質上面的風險他就憑一張營業登記有寫國際貿易資本額也不足的廠商也不高的廠商就可以承攬這個巨額的採購如果一個近6億的案子都能夠搞得如此漏洞百出那未來高達1.25兆的國防特別預算我們人民怎麼放心交給國防部"},{"start":9787.438,"end":9808.049,"text":"那所以我是希望說國防部現在已經沒有辦法自律我們應該引進外部的監督單位所以我是希望就是說委員會這邊能夠才是我們責成工程會連政署還有審計部把這近五年的火藥原物料還有本案啟動專案調查我想我調查幾個點"},{"start":9811.724,"end":9832.412,"text":"包括底下這幾個點但是不限於這幾個點第一個工程會的部分要針對國防部採購巨額的採購為依法規避特定資格包括財力跟實際支銷的審查反而降低門檻是否為特定廠商量身訂做這有沒有行政疏失這是請工程會要調查第二個廉政署"},{"start":9833.612,"end":9859.171,"text":"針對單一廠商投標資格顯不相當還有廠商變更登記還有異常等等的情節要調查押標金跟履約保證金的來源有沒有綁標圍標或是圖利特定廠商然後也要檢視國防部內部的陣風提出防弊還有制度的改善要請他們也要做到還有審計部要全面檢討國防採購效能要查明有沒有違反預算用途驗收放水"},{"start":9859.671,"end":9878.027,"text":"未依約追罰並且針對這一類的高危險的旅約案件提出風險控管的調查報告那我想如果可以的話是不是一個月內針對個案相關委員會還有今天來質詢的各個委員辦公室能夠提交報告"},{"start":9878.507,"end":9902.985,"text":"然後三個月內針對國防部近五年的軍火採購案件能夠提供調查我想我跟主席報告就我強調一個點這個不是我們委員個人跟國防部之間的攻防因為這是涉及到整個外交國防委員會代表人民在做內部的監督那不是說事情發生了就叫一堆網軍出來亂洗一通網軍現在不是在罵說什麼合成公司當年也"},{"start":9905.367,"end":9920.997,"text":"那個標了那個抗彈板問題是抗彈板本來他材質一部分就是陶瓷嘛他又是個上市公司怎麼可以拿來比這一次這個火藥採購的這個案子呢兩個完全差距這麼遠一個是在做他的專業而且上市公司另外一個我們不知道他在幹什麼的"},{"start":9923.524,"end":9927.186,"text":"我想我們要讓國人看到這不是究責而是我們要搞清楚國防採購到底發生了什麼事情我想是不是主席可以才是做這樣子折騰這幾個單位來進行調查就吳宗憲委員所提的這個建議因為涉及本委員會還有非本委員會的部分如果說是我們本委員會的那就由我們主辦的委員會來主責"},{"start":9948.254,"end":9954.639,"text":"那另外如果是本委員會的因為今天臨時提案的時間已經過了那我們會找適當的時間我們來以臨時提案的這個方式我們再來提出那另外其他非對口單位比如說像工程會啊或者其他相關的可能在48委員會或者其他的委員會我們來共同來提出然後看有必要的時候"},{"start":9977.194,"end":9989.76,"text":"需要用怎麼樣的聯席會議或者其他的我們再來一併處理好不好謝謝主席我想這個國防預算的支出是國內最大項的支出我們還是要讓國人知道到底發生了什麼事情好那我們麻煩部長謝謝部長請顧部長"},{"start":10002.622,"end":10015.455,"text":"謝謝國防部長你們的報告也有提到說其實你們是經得起公開監督的啦所以我們才會說我們用一個公開監督的方式來處理我建議委員不要查五年啦你應該是查過去二十年好了"},{"start":10015.735,"end":10033.826,"text":"沒問題 沒問題我們到時候委員會聊我們20年嘛謝謝你要查的話部長 我也相信部長跟我一樣我們對於國家有忠誠的義務所以我們一定希望把事情釐清那也不要說讓有人背負不白之冤所以把事情釐清我想是你我跟國人都希望的"},{"start":10034.446,"end":10049.978,"text":"請問一下你們新聞稿提到押標金3%履約保證金5% 180天內提出輸出許可驗收不合格就解約 沒收保證金這部分是你們這一次的報告還有新聞稿提到的請問是或不是"},{"start":10051.341,"end":10075.167,"text":"我們會在這個他如果沒有辦法提出輸出去的證明然後之後又沒有辦法提供這一個產地證明原廠製造證明文件然後並且沒有辦法能夠交貨的話那我們就有或者是檢驗沒辦法合格我們就辦理結案付款不合格的部分都辦理退貨由廠商回運原產地"},{"start":10076.908,"end":10092.844,"text":"這個內容我想大家都知道我只是說這個數據沒有錯但是部長這個採購法的核心是要求政府你用納稅人的錢去找廠商合作重點是要審查廠商的資格是要一開始就要避免有交易的危險"},{"start":10094.045,"end":10114.902,"text":"所以採購它有兩個很重要的關鍵點我想部長您是律師我是檢察官出身的我們對於採購法都很熟悉我們採購有兩個最重要的關鍵點第一 旅淵能力第二 進出口經驗跟供應鏈這兩個很重要的關鍵點所以今天你們的新聞稿有提到說裝潢公司有營業國際貿易所以符合採購資格這個沒錯吧"},{"start":10119.245,"end":10146.875,"text":"你們有這樣子講嘛對不對我們過去20年來對於外購的這些火藥原物料的採的資格都是如此也就是說具有國際貿易的資格就都可以但是呢依據巨額採購的標準5.9億的採購案至少要有十分之一的財力證明啊這家廠商的資本額只有1900萬不到三分之一那連你說的5%的危機是2950萬都賠不出來那這個我就覺得就是一個很大的風險啦"},{"start":10148.635,"end":10170.629,"text":"我們是用押標金跟旅業保證金來督促他預約旅行我跟你講你講到這個就是我等一下要講的啦所以你們認為說廠商只要繳得出押標金旅業保證金期限內能夠提出這些原廠證明我們就認為他有代理人能力嘛對不對如果沒有你們會解約這是你從早上講到現在但是我跟跟部長報告一件事情"},{"start":10171.169,"end":10186.544,"text":"你這等於是放任廠商拿國防部的合約去跟銀行貸款所以他是在做無本生意部長解約跟賠償是兩回事您是律師我覺得這能不要混淆視聽我給一個比喻"},{"start":10187.947,"end":10202.996,"text":"第一個他可能會發生的他債權可能沒有辦法實現因為你們一直講的是說他違約我們有什麼處罰旅遊保證金5%押標金3%你一直講這個但是我今天是國防採購我不是要採購一個官司案"},{"start":10203.897,"end":10224.066,"text":"所以我為什麼希望他最後會走到那一步呢我當然是希望採購能夠順利嘛所以啊所以我們採購能夠順利就是要拿到輸出期可證明啦他沒有辦法拿他就沒辦法履約我們沒有付錢啊部長我沒有問你所以呢今天發生幾個問題我點出問題點好不好第一個你找了一家資本額只有1900萬的公司"},{"start":10226.047,"end":10244.275,"text":"去承包這麼大的案子那這個會發生什麼 就好像騎腳踏車不小心撞到法拉利一樣出事了 對 你可以告我我可能要賠你一千萬但不好意思 我賠不起嘛債權憑證嘛我們念法律人不是最喜歡講我沒有需要告他 我沒收履約保證金履約保證金他已經繳在那裡啦"},{"start":10245.355,"end":10270.194,"text":"然後第二個 我跟你講反正他今天不管發生了什麼事情我搞不定 我賠不了 那我就宣告倒閉就好我就再講一次嘛我不管他有沒有宣告倒閉我默說他履歷保證金就是我違約的時候的處罰嘛部長 部長 麻煩你冷靜一下我再說一次 我房採購我是要保衛國家用不是為了未來找官司用的嘛"},{"start":10270.734,"end":10292.124,"text":"我的主軸是要保衛國家不是要找一個以後可以打官司所以我覺得就算打贏官司我們拿到一個債權憑證或是我們沒收了他的押標金意義在哪裡他的旅遊保證金已經在我這裡了我立即跟他沒收所以我今天就覺得"},{"start":10293.004,"end":10310.88,"text":"第一個我們可能拿到紙紗債權憑證第二個會有戰備空窗啊對不對如果說今天你說可以解約嘛對不對好那我們買炸藥是為了備戰不是為了打官司初次解約有什麼用戰備還是發生真空啊"},{"start":10311.3,"end":10329.417,"text":"那我在乎的是這個點嘛錢不錢是小事但是他可能會產生一個戰備的空窗這就是為什麼我們在採購的時候尤其對於巨額的採購我們設定很多條件嘛因為國家是希望採購能夠順利成功而不是希望未來可以去打官司打贏我想這個"},{"start":10330.738,"end":10353.748,"text":"這點我非常贊同所以我們就是開放開放所有的廠商重點就在於他絕標後一定要拿到輸出許可證明啊實際是零今年進口也不到1600萬根本就違反巨額採購的標準因為你至少要2.36億要有五分之二的軍火交易經驗嘛但是他是零所以"},{"start":10354.548,"end":10383.419,"text":"如果今天喔他是廠商是拿了國防部的合約去跟銀行抵押借錢繳押標金保證金這個叫做融資這不叫做實質的財力好那我們的採購法為什麼一直希望來標的公司要有實質的財力就是不希望他到時候兩手一攤我公司倒閉就沒事了國家還是希望一個非常良好的廠商來標因為我們希望每一個標都能夠順利軍火能夠拿到所以啊"},{"start":10385.475,"end":10408.541,"text":"再來我想這次的絕標公告裡面有提到原產地是中華民國那我以為我看到了這個字眼我覺得原產地國別是中華民國那就應該是在中華民國生產但現在又爆出說是在其他地方可能印度可能美國那我就搞不清楚了這個是習產地嗎還是這個是詐欺這我就搞不懂了 地方嘛"},{"start":10410.302,"end":10430.324,"text":"會不會說事後解約然後這個所謂的我們嚴格審查機制其實讓空國公司是不是全身而退這是把風險丟到第一線的過去那我再跟你說因為我自己辦公室的一個助理女生她小孩差不多當兵的年紀她最近每天都很擔心她看到的是一個"},{"start":10431.738,"end":10450.364,"text":"我們看到新聞說原本好像是差不多8.24億的一個一個標案後來廠商有5.93億標下來看似替國家省了錢但是我們以前看過採購案的人都會覺得這種異常的低標將本求利的時代他會不會意味著偷工減料那我沒有下定論我說我會擔心這個點"},{"start":10452.165,"end":10469.744,"text":"那我今天這個炸藥 要嘛會不會是不穩定所以我們的子弟兵我們的軍人拿到會不會容易有危險這第一個 第二個他會不會有不急發的問題那他在面對敵人的時候如果無法急發 無法完成任務這也是風險嘛"},{"start":10470.845,"end":10498.775,"text":"所以如果今天這個東西他這麼低價搶下來會不會有偷工減料 會不會有劣質炸藥要嘛不穩定 要嘛過於穩定無法激發這都是我們擔心的這也都會影響到國家的安全那我想 你們講到這個國內無產能但是總是跟你們公告的東西產地要中華民國不一樣那我們念法律就是看資料我一資料一看我也搞不懂為什麼你們講的跟原產地國別這個差距這麼遠"},{"start":10501.255,"end":10507.582,"text":"這個真的很奇怪所以我想說這個會不會是代表說這個公告只是刑事就國防部那一定要給誰就給誰"},{"start":10509.301,"end":10532.811,"text":"那個公告的欄位是因為在絕標公告的時候我們沒有先讓他們提供產地來源等到後來得標商提供產地的證明資料以後我們就會偵證絕標的公告關於有關產地的資訊第三個公司的財力證明在哪裡我想我們必須要知道這個要跟各位報告"},{"start":10534.972,"end":10550.571,"text":"民進黨執政九年 國防預算翻三倍我當然是全力支持國防我一定支持我們要保衛我們的國土我們要對抗任何一個外來的政權或任何一個國家我們都要與你對抗我也絕對挺警察軍人 消防這些人我絕對挺到底"},{"start":10551.252,"end":10571.263,"text":"但是我們特別 光預算漲三倍特別預算1.5兆就讓財力不足沒有交易經驗的公司去跨進來去能夠吃到甚至有人講說15億的開口合約這時候我們就會想說到底這個錢是拿來強化戰力還是餵養特定的廠商這是我們一直在擔心的"},{"start":10572.143,"end":10594.21,"text":"那剛剛部長確實有提到本案設定有違約金那其實我們看到我們跟美國買F16V幾千億捧去了沒有飛機沒有違約金錢在美國升利息那今天好不容易國內的廠商我們可以罰了卻找了一家資本額只有1900萬的公司一旦違約以他的資本額連5%你們訂的5%他都賠不起他5%已經繳了嘛所以"},{"start":10599.534,"end":10628.282,"text":"很多都是貸款的啦他5%的違約金已經繳在我們手上無法可罰但是呢 部長你剛講的很威啦就有違約金 有解約 有求償每一句話都有印但是我擔心的還是那個點第一個 小事情是罰不到這個是小事喔 小到不能再小事第二個 軍火拿不到這是我擔心的我們開這個表案是為了國防 為了保家衛國而不是為了他做不到以後我們再來跟他司法訴訟"},{"start":10630.194,"end":10649.316,"text":"我還是一樣支持國軍支持到底但我不想讓我們國人的血汗錢送到特定空殼廠商的口袋裡面那我也呼籲說國軍的弟兄姊妹只要看到這種類似的案子有任何懷疑都一定要勇敢站出來因為這不是扯國家後腿不是扯國軍後腿這在保護自己的生命那我跟部長報告我剛剛所提到"},{"start":10650.077,"end":10665.993,"text":"部長 實國家奉陸因中國家之事實國家奉陸因中國家之事我做過24年的公務員我很清楚這個道理我們對國家都有忠誠義務我也相信你也很清楚這一點所以我們好不好我們把這個"},{"start":10667.507,"end":10689.301,"text":"我們搞清楚是怎麼回事那請國防部能夠站在一個協助大家釐清問題的那個角度而不是護航的角度我們把東西弄清楚讓國人知道國防部真的是認認真真在做採購我想大家會對於國防部將來的各項採購或特別預算會更加的信任更加的支持好不好我們一起做到這件事情謝謝部長"},{"start":10690.013,"end":10695.117,"text":"委員看起來都是只是在自己做自己的發言的內容部長你每次都講這話我跟你講部長你每次都在講這話你要嘛說你講的都不是事實你這個沒根據但是不是事實在哪裡沒有根據在哪裡你也不講啦我剛講的東西"},{"start":10706.125,"end":10728.273,"text":"我剛剛講的東西 請問哪一個錯他履約 他只有1900萬的資本額 哪裡錯你們違約金5%是到2000多萬 哪裡錯那我要求的說 採購重點是國防拿得到的東西賠錢是小事 這哪裡錯 我都不知道這到底錯在哪裡 採購法的重點是你一直在講履約保證金 那我一直在重複 履約保證已經繳了 你有聽進去嗎"},{"start":10732.202,"end":10744.291,"text":"只要了也不足以顧及我們國家的安全謝謝我們等一下謝榮介委員質詢完畢我們休息5分鐘現在請賴世保委員上台質詢謝謝主席及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":10766.455,"end":10787.133,"text":"部長你好我最近這一段時間很少看到你這麼生氣你從上個禮拜一直生氣到現在到底是怎麼樣是戳到你哪個痛腳你怎麼早上一來這裡面對媒體的生氣在這裡現在生氣到底生氣是為什麼你講一個問題為什麼這麼生氣各位委員報告我想我對每一件事情都只是據理例證而已"},{"start":10795.441,"end":10811.851,"text":"你以為我很生氣喔好幾個人就問我為什麼顧部長這麼生氣原來很有修養的 變成沒有修養來 我們來看喔外界質疑的是什麼外界質疑的就是他的資本額1900萬為什麼可以拿到這麼大的表"},{"start":10816.448,"end":10832.262,"text":"剛才已經有很多委員講了我就不重複了外界質疑的是這個那你就一直在回答一個事情說旅約保證5%交了押標金交了是不是這兩個都交了還是只有交一個先交押標金"},{"start":10834.229,"end":10853.529,"text":"先加投標押標金然後絕標之後就是押標金我還回然後就他履約保證金所以等於3%加5% 8%前面先收3%對完成程序之後絕標之後還回他3%再加5%再收5%那現在在你手上到底多少幾%了"},{"start":10855.41,"end":10860.173,"text":"那是多少錢的5%是5.9億的5%還是原來8點幾億的5%預算金額8.2億的5%所以是4千多萬在你手上那部長啊 你在乎不在乎他這個錢是借來的"},{"start":10870.82,"end":10891.619,"text":"拿到你這個合約 拿到的去融資剛才委員提到的 你在乎不在乎還是You don't care我只要他錢給我就好了 我不care是這樣子嗎我在乎的是透過我們這樣的公開招標的程序能夠如期如值的執行完這個合約讓我們能夠拿到我們所需要的火藥原物料"},{"start":10892.219,"end":10899.161,"text":"那麼履約保證金沒收跟解約然後還有辦理停權是拿來我們控管他在招標之前他就要思考他有沒有這樣子的履約能力的一個控管的機制下一個檢核點是什麼時候下一個檢核點就是他要在決標次日取得180個日曆天列取得外國政府或授權機構核發的輸出許可證明"},{"start":10921.203,"end":10939.36,"text":"就是絕標日期180 絕標是什麼時候12月8號絕標所以大概半年左右 就明年度的6月左右是不是這個意思 是 看他能不能取得如果不能取得咧如果不能夠取得 我們就可以要檢討要不要解除合約怎麼會這麼客氣 就解除啦 不是嗎"},{"start":10947.216,"end":10956.123,"text":"我們如果委員的這個意思是如此我們也確定他不能取得輸出許可的證明我們就會採取這樣的手段那委員金呢沒收啊就是旅業保證沒收就對了啦對啊沒收四千多萬啦我為什麼特別提這個因為前面幾位委員已經有提到了就是大家會擔心的像我們的風力發電"},{"start":10977.389,"end":10986.885,"text":"政府給合約保證收購電而且電價很高他拿這個合約去貸款通通拿銀行的錢"},{"start":10988.573,"end":11012.995,"text":"這個到底的買空賣空啊到底的買空賣空我們怕這個事情也歷史重演那個風電一樣所以這個大家就會比較說那這個不是跟這個小吃店做快篩的生意超市雞蛋進口幾乎如出於策啊就變這個樣子外界擔心的是這個而且你剛剛講說他有營業項目這去年才加進來的啊你"},{"start":11014.736,"end":11039.167,"text":"不讓外界有這樣的質疑都很困難因為去年才這樣子我請教部長胡邁公司應該不是去年才加進來的營業項目去年才加進來的不是不是 他原來就是從事國際貿易沒有 化學品 化學用料的化學原料去年加進來的我們的資格就是他能夠從事國際貿易化學原料不用在乎我們歷來過去20年的"},{"start":11043.57,"end":11069.668,"text":"20年來所有火藥原物料的資格都只要具有國際貿易的業務項目可是他沒有做過火藥的生意喔過去沒有因為我們這是內購外賣嘛那這個他只要有一個國際貿易業的代理商的資格就可以啦這個部長 其實其實 我就問你一件很直白的啦"},{"start":11070.834,"end":11085.667,"text":"我們立委踢爆這件事情之前請問你知不知道這個事情我對相關的個案每一個個案我沒有去介入所以你都不知道當然是事件爆發出來之後我才了解這個整個案件的內容"},{"start":11086.298,"end":11095.94,"text":"以你大律師的背景你沒有看一下這個這個案子沒有任何可以你監討的地方嗎你不會覺得它資本額太小嗎不會這樣覺得嗎我們檢視的結果就是已經一再的跟委員說明就是在於說我們開放這個參與投標但是我們會做嚴格的履歷監督嘛這個就是一個核心的一個我們國防部的立場對於這樣子的一個開放參與投標然後核心監督"},{"start":11116.064,"end":11144.152,"text":"這個履約然後對於履約的這個部分他會招致這個相關的這些被沒收被解約被停權的後果他在參標之前他就會做衡量他一定覺得他一定會去思考他有沒有履約能力那剛剛委員也指教的很好就是說第一個管制點在什麼時候第一個管制點就是在於決標的自治體的一定的日期內他要取得外國政府的一個輸出區域證明他如果拿不到"},{"start":11144.952,"end":11147.696,"text":"他就會面臨你有沒有側面了解他能不能讓他知道我現在沒有辦法去評估這樣子的一個狀況你總是要了解現在新聞報這麼大了你總是要去了解一下"},{"start":11157.014,"end":11164.402,"text":"我們現在相關的作為就是我們在採購前辦理這個商員的徵詢然後之後我們辦理公開招標讓所有可能能力的人都進來投標你跟民企了解一下他的資本有1000多萬他怎麼有錢拿4000多萬給你交旅遊保證金借來的"},{"start":11178.803,"end":11192.731,"text":"我要拿到的是旅業保證金的現金我並不需要去管這一個他的你不會在乎嗎你不在乎老百姓在乎喔我們的控管的所要就是旅業保證金的沒收啊"},{"start":11193.274,"end":11218.544,"text":"不是 他就是拿你的因為拿到你的合約拿去貸款的所以這一點大家在意這一點你怎麼會說你一個大律師怎麼會國際貿易在從事相關的業務我想過去幾十年很多我們的這些中小企業也好或者我們從事國際貿易的這些奮鬥的過程當中我想他如何運用他的資金這本來就是他成功歷史裡面的一段"},{"start":11219.764,"end":11228.349,"text":"我認為我們不需要去非議這樣的一個手段重點就在於他必須要繳交旅業保證金而我們的手段非常簡單看到貨品質合格我們才會付款我們沒有任何的風險在這個之前但是他要受到很大的風險他沒有辦法旅業他旅業保證金會被沒收他會被停權"},{"start":11245.816,"end":11259.672,"text":"外界的質疑就是這事先都講好了才去去年把這個原料化學原料把它加進來的然後都是都講好了才去做這個事情為什麼只有一家飆請問它是不是限制性招飆"},{"start":11261.172,"end":11289.226,"text":"跟委員報告啊你如果看我們提出來的過去這個五年內相關的這些表案很多都是一家出來投票因為他都是有把握去拿到這些證明他才會進來投票這個就是火藥原物料的一個採購的一個特色所以你是替他背書的啦我沒有要替他背書我也不知道他是不能最後拿到輸出去的證明尤其特別在經過這一段風波之後但是"},{"start":11290.106,"end":11309.619,"text":"他能夠來投標他當然就要先思考我另外問一個問題美國國會研究處在12月11號報告IF12735這裡面特別提到了台灣如果因為"},{"start":11310.479,"end":11335.964,"text":"就是說美國對他的盟國對他的朋友們如果遭受到攻擊的話他可能會動用核武去幫忙那麼簡單來講就是兩岸開戰雖然台灣跟美國沒有這個要台美的什麼相互互相協防跳躍什麼之類的美國延伸嚇阻跟區域核能力就是他會動用核武器"},{"start":11337.743,"end":11359.895,"text":"來的話我們台灣有沒有承受核戰場的能力我們最大的這個努力就是我們做好我們的備戰基礎我們來避戰然後這個台海的和平穩定的現狀能夠維持沒有沒有沒有 你沒有回答問題我問你核戰場萬一如果美國要出動這個了台灣會牽連嗎"},{"start":11361.889,"end":11369.78,"text":"我相信如果有任何發生核子武器的動用對全世界都會是一個災難不是只有對台灣謝謝接下來請謝龍介委員上台質詢"},{"start":11394.726,"end":11406.216,"text":"主席我先 保證你先喝茶講一下廢話我先請中科院請中科院 李院長議長 我說好樂威跟我有問題"},{"start":11424.692,"end":11425.433,"text":"今年3月這個標案是第三次開標"},{"start":11444.4,"end":11457.59,"text":"第三次對 第三次開票才投票所以第一次跟第二次這一家公司有沒有來投票都沒有對不對為什麼第三次是誰去找他出來的來信通話 整個啊這在我們台南是全新的第一次 第二次他都沒有來投票啊第三次是誰抱他出來吃這個好吃的"},{"start":11472.756,"end":11474.498,"text":"這就是問題啊委員因為是公開招標啦 我知道公開招標嘛你說過去第一屆第二屆流標 第三屆就是一間就可以了這個時候 心必靈的出來啊所以最後就絕標啦"},{"start":11493.373,"end":11521.127,"text":"你知不知道他同期時 三月你們割標的時候他是在去年12月30日做變更的你知不知道這個事情國民重點就是他具備了參標人士對啦 我知道他具備啦 他具備的是12月30日才具備嘛我再跟你講好啦 我請補充來所以中科院你就是第一次 第二次 他都沒來啦"},{"start":11522.028,"end":11526.411,"text":"他三次要割皮的順序就出現了啦你只割他一斤而已啦不對 剛才那個軍備局 軍備局你說有5%的保證金我請教你喔 這個軍備局5%的保證金 中科院你可以回去 請坐"},{"start":11547.974,"end":11560.862,"text":"這5%是用什麼資料 現金?還是支票?還是定存檔?是 都 包委員都可以現金 即時支票他一次是用這支的支票就對了 是的 是的我們要這5%要做什麼?你看 豹趴出來賣蛋拿5%跟木修5%要怎樣?保證有人在應援喔 不要那麼生氣啦"},{"start":11575.458,"end":11594.889,"text":"我知道你是站在法律上的角度 我們有保護這個標案跟木修對於來說普通不一樣甚至還有醫館在這裡說什麼本來做玩具也可以做無人機啊可以啊 我以前就是玩具生產啊我做玩具做20幾年了我本來也可以做槍啊後來內政部來取締啊"},{"start":11603.152,"end":11607.294,"text":"我也可以做無人機啊遙控驅動的我都可以做啊但是過程有一個研發啊不會說瞬間一夜之間我就變得動作人家想投入研發三年四年五年不等嘛陶瓷也一樣啊那精密陶瓷我也是投入研發啊才有新品出來啊"},{"start":11630.257,"end":11637.76,"text":"做漁船的當然也可以做雷箭啊 那就別空啊 慶富就這樣來的嘛 國家僚兩百幾個啊你不能說他只要有資格就可以嘛這間啦 暗沒目啦12月30號變更的時候 我聽到了啦 我現在跟你講為什麼會是他 因為有人看嘛"},{"start":11659.991,"end":11662.834,"text":"這個採購本來就是一個很封閉啊我們比較過去你們採購的農務當然有人說要打破壟斷嘛 很好啊打破壟斷那就是弄一個新的壟斷啊為什麼是他 為什麼不是我啊來報的資料農中有的時候"},{"start":11686.857,"end":11705.942,"text":"包括去巴西買芥農的藝術是什麼你知道嗎 超市不要去過巴西巴西有人替他拆工好了 有人替他整廢棍 有人把他送進來你不要到台灣了喔 這個雞蛋應該給哪一家廠商幫他去化超市連洗蛋的工廠都沒有那最後去化以後還直接流到通路"},{"start":11711.893,"end":11718.416,"text":"這件就是要奉祭 是不是這樣 我跟你講他沒有這個領略上勝算 也沒有這個領略上進回那當然 人家就懷疑啊 是不是國安部 有人介入 官員有介入民意代表有介入 他是怎樣是民意代表給聽的 還是官員報他好康的 還是莫迪是他們表現"},{"start":11743.735,"end":11746.116,"text":"莫迪你聽不懂 印度總理啊印度總理是他們表現 怎麼可以拿這個表現轉型 企業轉型是好事 但轉型不會是一夕之間你能進入軍工科技這個產業他這是標準的有問題 我在這裡替賴清德總統澄清一下"},{"start":11770.998,"end":11778.223,"text":"經過分析台南的調查賴總統跟他們不認識他不是賴友友但他是立友友賴總統跟他不認識啦而且當時借他的牌出來做台南市2014年到2016年那個小型工程的那個人"},{"start":11792.813,"end":11807.047,"text":"也不是他們本身 那是人家照擺出來做的所以我算在這裡替賴總統澄清各位不要誤會 賴清德跟他們不認識但是有民意代表要跟他認識啊為什麼會把整個標案弄好了這就是損風殺到窮啦"},{"start":11819.039,"end":11822.98,"text":"不給過去那個結構的那些廠家繼續做那為什麼挑了他那挑他以後本身在這正式跟部長檢舉跟這個公司接觸的有一個退役的金人這是前天在地的人跟我講有退役的金人跟他們接觸"},{"start":11846.4,"end":11861.327,"text":"那到底這個退役的軍人是代表國安部還是代表民意代表去跟他周旋周旋好了以後促成這個標案這是我要注意的當然我們採購有很多困難啊對不對所以要保證採購的進來你不知道印度部長你了不了解俄羅斯在賣原油的時候印度大買特買然後轉賣"},{"start":11875.851,"end":11895.255,"text":"有這個事嗎這兩三年了 二五戰爭的過程印度買了俄羅斯很多原油就直接轉賣了 賺了大筆的錢那你怎麼會知道這個原物料呢印度不是向中國大陸買的 然後轉賣給我們我們要怎麼防篤"},{"start":11901.175,"end":11924.133,"text":"我們會取得原產的 原產就變成是印度出來 習產地啊但是你沒辦法追查 你也沒有能力追查 坦白講國安部包括民意大包括各方面很難去追查到這一點那我們要怎麼去防度 要他提出什麼樣的切捷我們這個原產製造證明文件是要經過產地法院或公證人公證"},{"start":11925.113,"end":11952.773,"text":"那當然他會取得嘛我的意思說他會取得就像這個印度從俄羅斯買來的原油轉賣一樣他也可以取得但是這個原物料實質上是來自中國大陸那我們怎麼辦我們就資助了紅色產業鏈啦我們會要求軍備局會同這個廠商辦理文件查驗我們必要的事也會實施反向查證"},{"start":11954.181,"end":11964.684,"text":"返鄉查證那要不要到產地去查證有沒有這個機制 合約裡面有沒有寫如果有必要的話我們會請駐外單位這個很嚴肅啦 部長我覺得這個我們必須要落實啦能不能 因為以他能夠得標那表示現在印度是有貨可以看啦是不是 君佩琪是不是這樣"},{"start":11982.172,"end":11999.927,"text":"印度現在應該是有現貨可以看或是有生產線可以看那我們能不能請廠商提供我們先去看一下我想我們這個部分等廠商提出輸出許可證明之後我們會來進行相關的這個旅業監督的作為"},{"start":12001.246,"end":12019.918,"text":"那提出以後部長我們什麼時候可不可以在他提出來以後我們在兩個月以內我們國安委員會請主席我們組成一個考察團我們到印度的廠地工廠去看一下實際了解可以嗎主席可以嗎我認為這個相關重要因為這可能會資助到紅色產業鏈"},{"start":12032.54,"end":12051.598,"text":"本席有高度的情報來源這些東西很可能是從中國大陸轉過來的還有就是國防部退役這個軍官我私底下會跟那個廉政今天調查局沒有來我會跟廉政署講這個軍官是哪一個軍種跟這個李先生他們接觸"},{"start":12057.452,"end":12073.445,"text":"那目前情報來源是說有交情但是是有人代表民意代表去接觸他然後還刻意帶風向說他是賴友友你對老青帝這樣汙衊我是看不下去啦"},{"start":12075.239,"end":12093.055,"text":"所以這裡今天兩個澄清第一個他不是賴友友第二個我們要採購的原物料很可能就是來自中國大陸然後轉到這邊來所以本席才會要求拿到這個證明以後"},{"start":12095.066,"end":12122.027,"text":"那印度的法院如果願意認證那建勤主席我們應該做一個實地因為這種採購不會一次就結束既然我們要擴大國防採購跟擴大軍備儲蓄那可能後續還會有更大的採購量一定要小心謹慎部長你認不認同我們會落實我們的旅業的監督機制"},{"start":12123.493,"end":12142.137,"text":"那監督機制你贊不贊成我們組團到印度去實地考察委員的這個行程我想不是我們國防部可以置會的那國防部到時候要派誰一舉來我們剛剛已經講了我們必要會請駐外的單位來做一個查問沒有 我們要有國防部軍備局陪同啊因為你們是專業的 你們要提供專業諮詢啊"},{"start":12151.072,"end":12178.949,"text":"否則我們這只是只有委員去也沒有用啊隨便就被糊弄啊那國安部能夠 軍備局能派潛人員嗎可以嗎可以嗎我想委員如果要去任何地方我們要不要陪同這件事情我們國安部要在另外在慎做要慎重怕踩到紅線"},{"start":12181.448,"end":12204.839,"text":"還是印度當局會拒絕我想委員這個事項現在都還沒有成正所以這個標案不一定會成不是我說委員剛剛說您要組團的這件事情還沒有成正委員會主席已經答應了我不知道就是你取得他的保證廠商的禮約跟認證以後我們要去實地勘查表示我們對軍事採購的慎重"},{"start":12213.938,"end":12224.962,"text":"只要委員會成行那軍備局是不是應該要派員隨同啊委員要做好委員相關的監督的作為我們都表示尊重那委員會主席如果我們成團軍備局應該要派人你不能答應嗎我沒有辦法現在對還沒有成團的事情我表示任何意見"},{"start":12242.651,"end":12249.168,"text":"沒關係 我會再來請教謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":12581.517,"end":12585.18,"text":"請各位就位我們等一下我們要繼續開會了我們現在繼續開會接下來請王洪威委員上台質詢好謝謝主席請部長還有軍備局局長請顧部長軍備局局長"},{"start":12615.543,"end":12626.243,"text":"好 部長局長好我先請教局長請問一下過去RDX是不是都是軍備局自行對外進口的"},{"start":12627.574,"end":12657.098,"text":"跟委員報告RDS都是我們進口原料由我們軍備局205廠自行產製提煉成RDS所以都自行進口那這次為什麼要不是進口原料RDS的原料RDX原料RDX的原料是一個化學品是一個化學品叫做烏洛托瓶對RDS由軍備局來生產那請問一下這次為什麼要由廠商民間廠商來進口呢"},{"start":12658.513,"end":12659.959,"text":"因為要為各軍種的"},{"start":12662.213,"end":12666.975,"text":"不對稱作戰的裝備的需求要擴充產能的關係對 要擴充產能我就採自製跟外購170噸來因應所以今年開始過去都沒有對外採購過第一次第一次採購第一次採購RDX對 RDX那顯然就出現了這樣的一個量身訂做來 那我請問一下"},{"start":12689.947,"end":12697.369,"text":"好 我請問一下部長今天你回答媒體的時候你非常不耐煩因為連續爆發的這幾個案件都出現了非常低的資本額但是他們的得標金額都很高那一個就是這個福邁它是1900萬它的得標金額是5.9億另外大石國際資本額3500萬它的得標金額是2億4900萬"},{"start":12718.835,"end":12730.942,"text":"然後另外一個呢是我今天特別提出的他的得標金額不高但是他的資本額只有少少的10萬元所以部長你認為資本額的高低不重要不在你們國防採購裡面的考慮範圍嗎"},{"start":12738.753,"end":12750.023,"text":"有關於火藥原物料也就是屬於內購外賣也就是屬於代理的部分我們都是過去20年來都採公開招標的方式辦理廠商的資格都是一致的在你們的報告裡面你們說其實你們的標準我看起來極低第一個只要是合法登記的第二個營業項目有國際貿易業還有你有納稅證明三項資格"},{"start":12766.497,"end":12770.861,"text":"那我先補充一下 剛才你一直強調福邁是過去都有國際貿易業錯 它是去年才新登記國際貿易業它的另外的關西企業 這個賣馬桶的 衛浴設備的它才有國際貿易業 但是來標的是福邁好 那我要問的是 資本額難道不重要嗎"},{"start":12790.698,"end":12793.799,"text":"資本額難道不重要嗎如果今天你的門檻這麼低難道沒有國安疑慮嗎我們現在看到的這些標案在裡面你們都講說這是有國安相關的機敏的標案但是你們都把資本額不重要部長說我沒有辦法去管他的資本額啊"},{"start":12814.867,"end":12816.328,"text":"請問一下這沒有國安疑慮嗎有心人士想要來標國防部的標案非常容易啊不知道你知道在國內國內登記有案從事國際貿易業的廠商有多少家嗎你知道嗎跟委員報告我們查到最早譬如說"},{"start":12835.718,"end":12850.827,"text":"過去從100年以來到現在38個標案包括了V炸藥等等的這些所謂的火藥的原物料等等我們所有都採公開招標廠商的資格都是如此"},{"start":12851.653,"end":12857.415,"text":"那沒有問題都沒有問題過去我要講的比如說中科院有一些標案因為我時間有限這個要素這個要素會有國安疑慮我剛剛講"},{"start":12867.578,"end":12892.478,"text":"在國內登記為國際貿易業的高達32萬家但是他真正有規模在從事國際貿易業的只有1100家那你剛剛講的福邁我可以告訴你他從110年到113年不知道你知道嗎他進口的金額是多少嗎"},{"start":12894.022,"end":12921.793,"text":"我想我們零一毛錢都沒有長期他沒有進口任何一個品項只有在今年他開始在標案子標中科院標國防部的案子才出現進口金額所以這個不奇怪嗎這個社會不會質疑嗎然後部長你是法律人喔你是法律人法律人我們就來看法規"},{"start":12923.413,"end":12939.265,"text":"我們工程會本來就有採購法我們也有相關的一些執法對於政府機關投票廠商的資格特別是那種特殊的還有巨額採購本來就有認定標準啊你們國防部是話外之明嗎來"},{"start":12944.997,"end":12962.854,"text":"投標廠商資格與特殊或巨額採購的認定標準它起碼要有幾項第一個它必須具有相當的經驗或實績者這個很重要嘛你對於一些這種特殊規格的"},{"start":12964.256,"end":12974.715,"text":"巨額採購的 你都不要管他 他以前有沒有做過我剛才講 這家公司110年到113年 就是今年之前他的進口金額是零啊"},{"start":12976.246,"end":12981.529,"text":"然後你可以讓他標一個5.9億的案子還覺得OK沒問題啊合法啊好來再來具有相當人力者人很重要嘛他有相關的專業的人力嗎或者還有相關的配備我可以告訴你啊你去查這家福邁公司到今年在爭人才還在招募人力啊他招募什麼人力啊他招募的還是室內裝修的人力啊"},{"start":13005.646,"end":13014.69,"text":"最近不是在講說馬總統時代也有什麼合成衛育也有標國防工程啊合成衛育資本額是多少30億結束30億而且人家有實驗室有實驗室你拿這個這是什麼呀這是一隻老母雞比那個雞爪嗎"},{"start":13034.385,"end":13052.246,"text":"這種比喻 再來 具有相當財力者這個很重要囉 具有相當財力者他特別講 他包括失收資本額不能低於招標預算金額的十分之一那當然後面還有 你有什麼會計年度要有什麼樣什麼樣的標準"},{"start":13054.309,"end":13073.892,"text":"好啦 我要問的是如果今天我們政府機關針對這些重要的標案還有這些特殊的標案 有國安資格 國安疑慮的標案都有這樣的一個限制 這限制是基本的嘛"},{"start":13075.133,"end":13098.491,"text":"這不是最基本的標準嗎你要有時機 我相信你有這個經驗第二個你要有一定的人力我們在講不管RDX HMX它都是 它是化學品 疫爆品最近不是萬海航運在印度萬海就爆炸啊到現在還在印度萬海沒辦法開啊"},{"start":13101.636,"end":13109.728,"text":"包含你航運的安排交通的安排 還有我請問你啊請問他把這個一進口是直接送到你軍備局是吧他不需要有倉儲是吧他直接就送到你軍備局所以你們不要那麼扯嘛"},{"start":13117.672,"end":13134.901,"text":"部長你是法律人這個都是工程會的規定工程會這樣規定你國防部不需要你給我訂一個什麼只要你是有合法登記的啦只要你是什麼有國際貿易的啦只要你有納稅證明你這麼低我告訴你啊還在辦什麼反滲透法有心人士隨便找一家美容美髮業找一家快炒業現在很多都在搞國際貿易啊"},{"start":13147.762,"end":13155.928,"text":"就可以來標你國防的功臣標你國防機敏的功臣標你國安的功臣你不會被滲透嗎你不會被滲透嗎你們這種標準還好意思拿出來國防部的標準那個主席給我一點點時間"},{"start":13169.065,"end":13175.546,"text":"委員我可以回答一下問題我請你回去檢討啦不要每次一講就說我們認知作戰你國防部的標案我們不能夠去檢討嗎不能去監督嗎委員不讓我有回答的機會我想這不是一般的詢答方式吧這怎麼不是一般的詢答方式好你講啊請問一下你憑什麼國防的標案它的標準可以這麼低而工程會的標準都寫在那裡給你看"},{"start":13198.807,"end":13219.257,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是說這是一個進口的現貨供應那麼進口的現貨供應呢他具有國際貿易的一個代理的資格那對這個合約的控制的手段就在於他必須要取得輸出許可證明這個輸出許可證明遠比你的資本額"},{"start":13220.177,"end":13237.631,"text":"原理比你的過去的時機都要來的重要因為不論你過去有多少時機不論你資本有多少你沒有辦法拿到輸出許可證明一翻兩瞪眼他沒有辦法履約有拿許可證明就代表他一定有能力嗎有拿到輸出許可證明才可以往下走廣大的人幫他拿到許可證明才可以往下走"},{"start":13242.415,"end":13251.516,"text":"那他所以他在投標的時候他就必須要思考他有辦法拿得到輸出許可證明嗎他如果拿不到輸出許可證明他敢來投標嗎"},{"start":13255.57,"end":13272.167,"text":"他就算投標 我跟你講嘛 我剛才講萬海航運已經有一個在印度外海爆炸的萬海長榮這些陽明海運他們不是不能夠運輸但是他的非常嚴格 尤其"},{"start":13272.768,"end":13274.769,"text":"剛剛發生所以我要講的第二點就是原廠的製造原廠的製造證明他就要跟這個代理商講好他們要原廠要用專傳然後來運輸然後來抵台"},{"start":13288.317,"end":13302.904,"text":"他還沒有交易底台之前所有的風險都是由他負擔並不是由我們負擔過去從來沒有做任何進出口過去從來沒有做過任何的軍火然後他到國外說我要進口你們的這個RDX然後他就順利可以取得他的這個輸入特許許可證明你覺得怪不怪"},{"start":13312.657,"end":13328.681,"text":"他只要拿得到你覺得奇不奇怪這麼神奇的事情在台灣台灣好多奇蹟所有的國際貿易從事國際貿易業者都有這個可能性對33萬家我告訴你啊你如果委員可以去看看我們過去20年來時間暫停所做的火藥的原物料的購案海軍司令部參謀長能夠得標的這個廠商都是從事國際貿易業者你不要再跟我蟲扯了我剛剛就跟你講這件事情嘛"},{"start":13342.851,"end":13348.259,"text":"因為時間的關係 海君等一下簡要回答我只有一件事情 我的要求海昆號"},{"start":13352.919,"end":13372.756,"text":"海昆號現在這次媒體爆料我也相信應該是跟海昆號他在海撤的時候有參與的人應該去爆料爆料的意思就是說我們在經過海撤的時候出現了故障最後都要用人力操舵說要人力操舵才逃出來就易壓故障"},{"start":13375.838,"end":13399.677,"text":"結果媒體去求證台船台船最後告訴大家為了保密跟加緊完成測試以後將不再逐一回應請問一下可以這樣子嗎人命關天的事情這是納稅人這麼多錢的事情台船可以講說我以後不再逐一回應是怎麼樣 要保密三十年嗎可以這樣嗎我想先請問跟委員報告"},{"start":13404.281,"end":13429.904,"text":"那因為的確最近有幾起的這個新聞的這個披露那對整個台船跟整個專業團隊的士氣那影響很大那我想台船也在短時間都說了一個非常 比較確確的一個說明那台船現在目前應該是要加強不是 未來這種可能危及到這個相關安全的問題 人民安全的問題他可以說不再回應嗎 可以嗎"},{"start":13430.865,"end":13436.469,"text":"我只問你可以或不可以我問你們國防部有沒有授權台船可以這樣所以是你授意的所以國防部授意我要求不可以這樣黑箱作業不可以針對這麼重大的這樣的一個有故障而且可能造成人命安全的問題不可以說我從此以後我不再回應"},{"start":13461.726,"end":13479.319,"text":"這樣是黑箱座也好 部長一句話來我們可以公開的部分我們一定會對外來公開說明對應該守密的事項也會進行守密像這種事情有或沒有要跟外面報告嗎要怎麼改進不能說我從此以後都不再說明好謝謝接下來請黃國昌委員黃國昌黃國昌委員不在請謝一鳳委員上台質詢"},{"start":13498.68,"end":13505.243,"text":"好謝謝主席我想要請部長請顧部長還有陸情指揮部參謀長還有陸軍司令部參謀長陸情部還有陸軍參謀長"},{"start":13519.504,"end":13542.58,"text":"我今天要就教於你是因為在彰化縣有就是炮兵指揮部那你知道在12月4號的時候發生了意外在就是演練的時候觸及到了民宅那好險是未爆彈因為轉速不夠所以彈藥沒有爆炸"},{"start":13543.821,"end":13554.819,"text":"如果今天彈藥爆炸的時候我相信會影響的就是整個整體我們相關的居民"},{"start":13555.862,"end":13579.284,"text":"所以我現在就要就教於陸軍後勤指揮部到底這個彈藥是不是過期那未來我們是不是在這個受訓的時候都要用新的彈藥才不會造成像今天這樣子訓練時候所造成的相關的危險"},{"start":13581.02,"end":13593.25,"text":"報告委員我是陸金昕常務長就這個案子就我的掌握向您報告有關於這個當天的這個炮彈射擊事實上這一發禁彈它並不是裝備問題也不是彈藥問題"},{"start":13595.692,"end":13622.142,"text":"它是我們去探究比較有可能的成因是發射藥那事實上在其他的先前的射擊它的這個射擊距離也都是正常的那我們為了全面的去做更嚴謹的檢視我們把這一梯的發射藥我們先把它暫停來使用然後全面去做一個檢驗要確定它的質量還有它的這個整個發射的能量都是達到正常我們才會再去使用"},{"start":13622.861,"end":13643.815,"text":"不是我現在今天的問題是如果現在你們訓練的時候用的你知道還是很久以前的這個彈藥的時候那對於不管是發射藥還是裡面的彈藥也好那對於這個周邊的居民所產生的這樣子影響"},{"start":13645.396,"end":13658.405,"text":"既然你們都要採購東西了那是不是應該用在就是說我們在訓練的時候對於他訓練所採用的這相關的彈藥是不是能夠用新購的"},{"start":13659.762,"end":13675.991,"text":"报告委员是的我们在先前也类似的训练这样的案例当中我们也是从最老旧的包含到弹药跟药包我们先去检讨我们的存量是否足够我知道那我们从老旧的优先去汰除"},{"start":13677.011,"end":13698.747,"text":"然後再去檢討哪些年份的可以去做整修這影響到居民的安全我們一切都會以官兵跟居民的安全為重我們總不能夠在訓練的時候就已經先打到自己那如果是這樣子的情況下是不是能夠請你們優先來使用新的彈藥在這個訓練的時候"},{"start":13701.079,"end":13725.241,"text":"我們是有朝這方面在檢討你們是不是應該就整體居民的安全你們應該要優先來用新採購的彈藥是不是我們會選擇安全性足夠的彈藥來不敢跟委員保證說一定是用最新的彈藥但是在安全性因為包含到我們陣地操作的官兵的安全居民的安全都是我們要優先重視的"},{"start":13725.982,"end":13745.515,"text":"是啊 對 可是你們現在就發生在你們就是訓練的時候就發生這樣子的危險 是不是今天波及了三個民宅還好是未爆的那如果今天是爆炸了是不是那就這個問題我第二點就交於你"},{"start":13746.331,"end":13766.198,"text":"那就對於這個炮兵指揮部的這個周邊的地區也有相關的居民的牧林的這樣子的經費是不是那是不是給予檢討並且予以提高因為就你們現在演練的結果產生了這樣子的差別"},{"start":13766.618,"end":13781.193,"text":"那是不是對於安撫周邊居民以及減少相關的這個道路的問題那是不是提高所有的就是說周邊的這個木林經費的相關的"},{"start":13781.854,"end":13800.721,"text":"花文我就兩點向您報告第一點有關於這三戶受到波及的民宅我們已經在11月11號10號跟11號已經跟百姓完成一個賠償我知道了那也簽了和解但是募領經費的部分我向您報告因為目前我們在這個訓場周邊這個包含到北斗田中西州的三個訓場目前都是我們募領經費的最高的級數是1000萬元"},{"start":13811.405,"end":13836.197,"text":"那它因為超過涉及天數還有飛躍到百姓的這個涉及線我們所謂的泡沫線是有穿越民宅這個都有加成那這個以西州來說它都已經加成到1380萬元那是有如您委員所指導的它是在最高上限之外還有額外結合地區涉及任務的特性有加成的設計"},{"start":13836.997,"end":13852.749,"text":"好那個參謀長我必須要跟你說就是現在的這個我們的台灣就是地下人籌的一個地方那你們就是所有的訓練場都離民宅非常近"},{"start":13853.91,"end":13867.326,"text":"你去看那個你有去看過吧你有去看過那都離民宅非常近所以當你即便是我們很快跟民宅做成了達成了和解但是未來"},{"start":13868.507,"end":13886.39,"text":"要協助就是這些居民可以能夠安全的能夠信任國防部嗎是不是信任你們陸軍嗎可以在那裡繼續的做演練嗎那如果這樣情況下要求你提高這個就是相關的木林應該沒有什麼"},{"start":13887.17,"end":13910.158,"text":"這個有關木林的經費我們會就全全國的三軍的相關的這個火炮射擊的訓拔場我們會來做一個全面性的通盤依照民意的實際的現況來做一個特別的注意相關的好不好相關的這個民眾的感受以及居民的安全"},{"start":13910.618,"end":13935.649,"text":"可不可以我想居民的安全是最重要的我們會在因為這個事件我有請陸軍司令部來做檢討有關整個相關訓練的這個一些事項包括公告還有包括攝像還有包括剛剛您提到的這些種種我們都會請陸軍司令部來做一個檢討務必讓居民安心好嗎是好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":13939.963,"end":13954.793,"text":"接下來請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員不在請楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請葉元之葉元之葉元之委員不在請林義軍委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":13976.32,"end":13998.985,"text":"是 另外一位顧部長好部長 我想請問一下你覺得2027年兩岸會打仗嗎因為還是你認為賴總統和國防部只是為了找合理的編列向美國採購這些武器所以故意有現在恐嚇人民們再加上現在大家都有收到近期發布的全民國防手冊"},{"start":13999.705,"end":14019.838,"text":"就是現在大家都是叫這個叫小橘酥啦所以心裡都非常的惶恐不安因為我為什麼今天要問這個問題呢是因為這個就是大家最近都在聊天的問題所以就是會聊到說有兩件事情一件事情就是說你們家有沒有收到小橘酥呢還有另外一件事情就是說2027年真的台灣真的就要打仗了嗎這樣所以連我的助理最近到百貨公司去"},{"start":14027.823,"end":14034.59,"text":"他都說奇怪那邊的櫃姐都跟他問說那到底是不是要打仗了這樣那我們要怎麼樣對人民做解釋呢所以像專櫃的櫃姐每一個人在聊天居然都在聊天這一個就是說圍繞的2027年兩岸會不會打仗這個議題那是真的是聽起來是真的非常諷刺啦所以我想說可不可以請部長說明"},{"start":14050.285,"end":14072.418,"text":"國防部立場是這樣第一點我們希望在2027年拿到我們的高戰備能力這是我們的目標這是第一點第二點我們認為有準備更安全所以如果我們準備的當能夠產生一個實力那實力帶來嚇阻用嚇阻才能帶來和平這是我們國防部一貫的立場"},{"start":14073.712,"end":14103.207,"text":"因為現在很多人都真的是有一點惶恐不安針對這個問題我想軍事的部分我們要努力的強化我們的裝備的獲得跟實戰化的訓練然後另外當然最重要就是有一個全社會防衛的韌性我想大家都有這樣子的一個危機的意識我們就能夠確保才能夠以實力帶來和平這樣子以實力帶來真正的和平是我們衷心所期盼的"},{"start":14104.264,"end":14132.797,"text":"好 那部長其實剛才你所說的我覺得台灣的軍事的裝備確實是真的有投資的必要然後最近因為國軍的人才其實流失非常的嚴重而且導致主戰的部隊其實現在兵線比非常的低落再加上最近爆發的馬防部官兵集體租賬戶的給詐騙局管當人頭的這個事件涉案的整個官兵多達了60多個人然後兵線比不足缺的人數還沒有補滿"},{"start":14133.917,"end":14138.681,"text":"然後又一次的太楚少了60個前線的官兵這樣真的是雪上加霜先進的裝備需要由熟練的官兵來操作才能有效的嚇阻這整個然後本席是覺得說現在最主要是應該想盡整個的"},{"start":14150.629,"end":14158.415,"text":"方法來招募還有留住更多的優秀的國軍人才才不會讓他們為了經濟而涉險所以國防部都準備要投入1.25兆的特別預算來採購大量的軍事裝備了那為什麼到現在還不願意依法編列預算替軍人加薪呢為國軍留住人才呢我想國防部的立場"},{"start":14175.39,"end":14194.457,"text":"我們已經一再的說明我們對於提高國軍的待遇都是非常的重視但我們比較希望就是說能夠整體的來規劃這個整個國軍的待遇然後來強化我們現在認為邊線比比較低的部隊那我上個禮應該是上上個禮拜"},{"start":14195.417,"end":14222.697,"text":"我也有提到我們會來檢討戰鬥部隊的定義那如果能夠擴大戰鬥部隊的定義的話整體的規劃考量將戰鬥部隊的定義擴大到一個程度的話我覺得更能夠彰顯我們這些主戰部隊的辛苦那我們也更能夠從整體性的觀點來規劃國軍的待遇部長那我看這個可能要快一點努力一下囉"},{"start":14223.482,"end":14225.543,"text":"有 我們會跟 我們會來進行溝通好 接下來我想我們空軍現在有140架F16的戰機那是不是112年的時候就已經對外宣稱完成性能的提升了呢但是週一的時候發生了一架F16在飛行訓練的時候飛行員因為肌力的昏迷然後從2萬尺"},{"start":14247.412,"end":14255.215,"text":"一下子馬上下墜到六千尺還好是因為高度還夠所以飛行員也及時的清醒所以才避免了一個悲劇的發生但是這個事情的發生的時候我們才突然的發現原來我們的F16戰機居然沒有安裝自動防墜地系統這種救命的系統"},{"start":14268.36,"end":14274.563,"text":"那請問一下空軍當初112年對外宣稱的完成性能提升到底是提升了哪些性能否則怎麼都對外說升級而且已經全部完成了而且本來應該就要安裝的這些救命的裝置卻沒有安裝國防部要這樣怎麼才能保障這些國軍飛官的性命安全呢那請一下 請部長回答跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":14298.315,"end":14305.219,"text":"整個就是block兩棟這140架飛機的性能提升是101年開始執行原先是到112年那後來因為一些彈藥的關係延到117年所以整個奉展專案就是性能提升的這個部分"},{"start":14316.565,"end":14339.836,"text":"是在101年就開始執行那您剛剛提到這個防撞地系統我們在107年跟美軍做了討論在108年加入這一個項目那在109年才獲得徵付預算所以它不是一開始就有的這個裝備也是希望能夠提高我們戰機的安全係數所以在109年爭取預算之後我們就陸陸續續開始做一個構改"},{"start":14344.318,"end":14346.88,"text":"那跟委員做簡單的一個報告那109年已經就已經就那時候就已經開始計畫了嘛那為什麼到現在都還沒有裝呢跟委員報告因為在美軍上面這個系統他要用數位的非控電腦"},{"start":14360.612,"end":14376.663,"text":"才能控制飛機的這些操作那我們的裝備是類比八個兩棟是類比式的電腦所以說在這個部分是花了比較多的時間還在做一個研發跟研改那目前已經初步完成它主要分成三個部分一個是基本的限速"},{"start":14377.443,"end":14404.525,"text":"一個是混合電腦就是剛剛講的我們要從類比式的電腦變成數位式的電腦那第三個是它的航電軟體的部分因為航電軟體也是非常多的系統正在研發所以它要找出一個節點能夠配合我們整個機隊的研發的時間來建構這個系統這三個要一起搭配才能陸陸續續完成我們整個性能這個Auto GKS就是防撞地系統的這個安裝"},{"start":14406.294,"end":14410.216,"text":"因為我還是要提醒一下部長因為我這樣看F16在109年還有111年的時候都已經發生這些事情了這樣的話像自動防墜地系統規劃那麼長的時期到現在還沒有是因為這一次發生了這件事情110年發生這些事情的時候我們才突然又討論到這一個問題所以我想應該這個要盡快的速度快點有這個裝備然後還有F16到底有哪些軟硬體還沒有生"},{"start":14436.429,"end":14458.949,"text":"幾完成的呢那除了AGM-154之外還有沒有一些裝備還沒有到貨的呢能不能一次的交代清楚呢您講的是指我們那個升級的這個部分嗎對那是不是而且跟委員報告我們整個在就是block兩棟這個部分就是您剛提到的AGM-154這個陸陸續續已經在提供後續的交貨集成"},{"start":14459.91,"end":14465.496,"text":"這一個防撞地系統目前也在進行當中在整個全案117年這兩項東西原則上應該都會完成"},{"start":14468.57,"end":14487.962,"text":"所以我想說是不是請國防部在今天會議結束之後列出F16目前還沒有升級完成的軟硬體的整個清單還有F16AV型戰機的性能的提升還沒有完全交運的裝備提出一面書面報告給本會的全體的委員讓我們在未來審查預算的時候我們更清楚國防部編列預算的需求可以嗎是"},{"start":14495.02,"end":14498.061,"text":"接下來我再請教一下部長就是有關今天召委安排的這個RDS的原物料的採購的問題這個採購真的是非常的疑點重重希望國防部能夠向全國人民說清楚這樣講清楚到底這個有沒有弊案所以部長根據你們今天的書面報告內容指出當時國防部決定進口的理由是因為國內沒有產能對不對"},{"start":14523.922,"end":14545.51,"text":"國內的廠商國內的廠商沒有對不對軍備局一直以來都有產能但是產能我們評估現在認為不足所以我們需要透過國內的廠商用內購外買的方式來取得所以這樣的意思就是說實際上國內就有產能了國內就是只有軍備局"},{"start":14547.471,"end":14562.791,"text":"對 國內本來就有產能 但是是因為軍備局最近的產能不足所以我們評估認為我們需要用到再有這個大量的一個需求所以我們要用這個採購的方式"},{"start":14564.133,"end":14567.675,"text":"從外國來進口因為這一筆是將近6億的巨額採購這包含後面還有將近9億的開口合約等於是15億的標案這樣的開標的兩次竟然都是只有一家廠商投標而且這個投標的廠商自己不用有工廠也不用安檢合格存放危險品的特別的倉庫對這種高度危險的炸藥的採購案金額已經高達15億"},{"start":14591.411,"end":14597.574,"text":"是符合政府的採購對巨額採購的整個標準但國防部對投標的條件我覺得未免太寬鬆了吧既然讓這一家完全沒有經驗財力不足沒有設備沒有驗證文件而且沒有任何主管機關的認定的話這樣的居然一個裝修公司就可以得標那請部長說明一下"},{"start":14614.521,"end":14641.186,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個要看標案的性質因為標案的性質是屬於向外採購一個原物料的現貨那它一定一運抵這個台灣之後呢就有我們的這個205廠進去押運然後我們這些205廠都是專業的人員所以這個貿易商他不會去接觸到這個相關的這些RDX那在"},{"start":14642.366,"end":14658.476,"text":"進來之前那麼他應該要去跟原廠去協調還用專船來運輸在運抵之前這個風險都是由他來承擔的所以他沒有需要要有一個什麼地方來囤儲囤儲的都是在我們惡靈無產的一個安全的管制地區"},{"start":14659.657,"end":14676.156,"text":"這個要跟委員說明那我們也過去查了所有歷年辦理這個火藥原物料的相關的這些購案總共20年來總共38個案子也都是採這樣公開招標的方式辦理廠商的資格都一樣也就是都只要一個公司設立的證明"},{"start":14676.917,"end":14695.342,"text":"然後納稅的證明跟有從事國際貿易業那這些相關的這些的火藥都也是這些我們可以列舉出來包括V炸藥等等的還有這些班萊特船的火藥條等等大概資格都是一樣的"},{"start":14696.821,"end":14709.269,"text":"因為為什麼我今天會這樣講呢因為北溪發現國防部最近其實真的是不斷的出現了一些弊端有時候讓八竿子都打不著的廠商都跨行的得標像電腦公司可以賣防彈衣的抗彈纖維布還有賣衣材的公司也可以賣防彈衣的抗彈板"},{"start":14715.473,"end":14720.415,"text":"還有賣場的通路商也可以賣部隊的軍服所以我北溪還是強烈的建議部長趕快啟動內部調查如果有弊端就要立行法辦因為這個採購案牽涉到炸彈光是在運送的整個途中這個環境就可能會直接的影響到相關人員的人身的安全"},{"start":14738.001,"end":14758.135,"text":"不能用我們國軍的官兵的生命來開玩笑所以希望部長可以務必趕緊的把疑點把它釐清清楚好 謝謝委員指教我想關於國內有自製產能的這個部分我們跟國外採購的部分我們要把它分清楚那國內自製產能的部分我們一定會有嚴格的要求這樣子好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":14776.004,"end":14803.46,"text":"你好 我們請國防部部長請郭部長是 陳委員部長好我想部長今天有很多的委員大概都是有問同樣的議題但是我還是希望我們的同仁在質詢的時候不要用臆測來去代替證據不要用問題來去代替證據如果要有任何的指控需要以證據為導向"},{"start":14805.041,"end":14834.453,"text":"那不然對於合法的按照招標這個合法招標的過程取得到這樣標案的這些廠商那我覺得不見得公平那如果覺得有任何弊端那理論上是要透過這個法律的系統你可以去提告那你也可以去做這樣相關的這些做法讓你懷疑的事情可以得到證實如果沒有的話純粹以臆測我覺得是對未來的國防產業工業不太公平但是"},{"start":14835.539,"end":14858.013,"text":"我們這邊也是想要做一個風險控管的問題來請教部長因為我有注意到這一個從絕標次日到180個日曆日要取得外國政府或他授權合法的輸出許可證明那就可以大概是取得這樣子的做法那我認為我們擔心的部分"},{"start":14858.593,"end":14875.87,"text":"就是我不在乎這些公司它的這個法律的這個過程怎麼走就是如果它沒有辦法履約的話那我們怎麼樣去懲罰它因為對我們來說這個就是走法律程序我們擔心的是這個戰備的時間跟空窗因為我們都知道2027是一個重要的節點"},{"start":14877.071,"end":14901.098,"text":"那也就是說假設有一些相關的廠商他不符合這樣子的能力但是卻得到這樣的標案的話那最後我們國家是會懲治他可是在懲治之後我們還是沒有辦法得到合格或者是說符合我們要的品質的這樣不管是剛才提到的這種火藥原物料或者是其他的這些商品所以我擔心的是"},{"start":14902.385,"end":14921.69,"text":"萬一有一些企業或廠商他參與他同時他完全合法他得到了這個合法設立的登記證明還有得到營業項目的證明還有納稅證明但是他是為了急迫的要得到這個合約那他其實不完全具備這樣的能力"},{"start":14922.41,"end":14934.236,"text":"他希望說在180天內他能夠盡量獲得這個能力但是他沒有辦法做自我的完整的評估最後還是沒有辦法繳獲的話對於我們戰備的這個會不會有空窗這個部分可不可以請部長簡單的回應"},{"start":14935.367,"end":14962.061,"text":"所以跟委員報告與其在那個他的資本額跟他的一些公司名稱上面大家在那邊講來講去不如要講的就是合約如何控制風險以合約來控制風險那我們的控制風險講得很清楚他在參標的時候他就要拿出預算金額的3%那就表示說他要有把握他才會來參標他如果今天兩手空空"},{"start":14962.921,"end":14992.148,"text":"他怎麼來參標呢 對不對部長 完全同意我進一步的來談這件事情因為我擔心的是說假設他把這金額的3%或者是預算金額的5%當成是可以來干擾我國得到這些戰備能力的代價也就是說我們現在去做針對的考核是針對企業沒有針對人員來進行考核所以假設這一個企業是相對新設立的"},{"start":14993.322,"end":15020.05,"text":"他有把這些相關的合法證明提供但是他背後的人員萬一他的目的不是要取得這個標案而是要干擾我國取得武獲的進程那這樣子怎麼辦所以我的意思是說我們過去的考核是不是主要是針對一個企業廠商我們未來有沒有可能考核是針對包含他的這些股權結構裡面的負責人或者是實際上這些人員的基本的安全考核"},{"start":15021.23,"end":15036.283,"text":"過去在我們其實這個安全考核這個東西我們很早就提到我們也知道說最近國防部也好或者相關的國安單位都有做一些相應的調整我覺得都是非常好的但是在廠商的這個部分在企業的部分我想美國它有很多外包的承包商"},{"start":15036.883,"end":15065.225,"text":"外部的承包商一樣他也需要經過安全核可他要經過機密考核等等他才有資格來去做這些事情那我擔心的是說會不會有一些企業那他的目的不是要取得標案而是要干擾我們五貨的建成這方面是不是我們多慮了部長可不可以簡單講我想委員的指教是很有道理的就是說我們現在就是區分兩種一種就是會涉及機敏的部分那我們就要對廠商"},{"start":15065.965,"end":15094.155,"text":"做更多的這個查核那現在是這個部分是屬於現貨的那所以我們會就這個廠商啊他如果是大陸地區廠商他不能來投標所以他如果是第三地區含陸資成分的廠商他不能來投標他如果是在台的陸資廠商他也不能來投標因為他畢竟是一個現貨的東西所以委員擔心我沒有辦法完全排除但是他至少是一個是一個原料的現貨"},{"start":15095.175,"end":15109.393,"text":"所以重點第一個節點就是在於他絕標之日期他就要想辦法取得訴訴許可的證明好 謝謝部長主要啦 這一機密的部門我們已經在做這個相關的這些有關的"},{"start":15110.234,"end":15125.708,"text":"金流的查核 人員的查核 治安的查核等等主要是金流跟人員因為我擔心的不是說他他後來的法律的後果因為他有些時候他是願意承擔這些法律後果也要干擾我國武獲的進程那特別是"},{"start":15127.83,"end":15156.189,"text":"跟過去不太一樣過去20幾年剛才部長有提到有20多家20年有38個案件都是大概用同樣的方式但是這幾年中共的能力跟他的干擾我們情報或者是說干擾我們獲得武獲的能力也是非常大的在提高包含我們提到的這些潛艦他會去干擾我們這些獲得廠商能力的這些人所以我們必須要假設說未來他也有可能"},{"start":15157.089,"end":15184.032,"text":"利用我們取得武器的進程來拖慢我們取得進程所以商源就很重要所以我剛才其實同意部長你講的這個我們商源要多不能說只有單一的那盡量來鼓勵這個更多的產業跟企業能夠投入這個國防這個事業它是可以把我們的商源是可以把它多元的分散那這樣子對我們的國防也比較有幫助因為我們不是產能不足我們過去是夠的"},{"start":15184.934,"end":15188.41,"text":"但是未來要 剛才也提到的我們是為了要被"},{"start":15189.945,"end":15214.479,"text":"備戰的目的就是要阻止戰爭所以剛才部長有說我們的目的是在這個避戰其實避戰是交給外交部我們的目的是要備戰備戰是要交給國防部用外交部來去努力的去來避免來去阻止來去嚇阻來去加強我國各國的盟友我想這些都是有幫助的但是我還是要再次強調這幾個安全考核的部分以人為"},{"start":15215.639,"end":15242.594,"text":"因為現在可以很快速的再創新創一個企業等等但是背後的人員 人因人因的這個部分我覺得我們要來去思考一下再來就是剛才有部長有提到我們現在這些貿易相關的他說我們需不需要倉儲我們需不需要運送其實205廠就已經來去負責專業的運跟儲所以他們要負責的那一段我們講得很清楚他不必具備這些能力"},{"start":15243.194,"end":15267.391,"text":"有些能力是需要具備的它是要付出更多的這種投資跟代價有些不用嘛它是貿易商不是嗎所以這個東西我想也要藉這個機會跟民眾很清晰的來去解釋不是說因為它是這個名字所以它不能做哪件事情而是它要具備它最基本我們的要求重點是要如期如質的把這個東西拿到我們才能夠確保我們的軍備是夠的"},{"start":15268.652,"end":15287.878,"text":"我想這樣子跟民眾解釋的話他們可以更理解我們也沒有帶任何情緒我們就是很清晰的跟民眾來報告我們為什麼要做這些事情我們商園要擴大我們的產能必須要夠多商園也要更多樣化才能夠避免整個中共的各種方式來去阻攏"},{"start":15288.878,"end":15314.291,"text":"再來另外一個部分我想要提到一下商業衛星的部分跟軍事基地的影響最近我們看中國解放軍在海南島的基地它有美國的衛星影像中心現在叫做萬拓科技它是用高解析度的散力影像所以它就是結合了人工智慧的偵查能力就結合人工智慧跟衛星的偵查能力來去做統整"},{"start":15315.666,"end":15333.488,"text":"那我們現在要思考的是說由於現在的科技它基本上它的每一代跟每一代的這種更換的速度它不是以數十年為單位甚至不是以數年就是每幾個月可能就會有新的能力出來那麼過去的五貨的方式"},{"start":15334.269,"end":15359.795,"text":"包含美國也是一樣它都是非常繁雜可能會需要的速度沒有辦法來去因應它即將面臨的威脅所以想請教部長我們現在的DIU也好 DIO也好國防部主要的目的還是跟無人機相關的跟太空也有關 是不是是 我們對我們太空的能力的發展也非常的重視"},{"start":15360.999,"end":15379.555,"text":"所以說這樣快速的這種能力的取得的話現在是以我們的DIU為主嗎我們不管是聯六或者是我們的聯二跟我們的整平思我們都有在這方面的努力"},{"start":15380.914,"end":15405.042,"text":"我的意思是說有些時候國防部扮演的角色跟民間衛星公司扮演的角色不太一樣有些東西是由我方掌握到的情報跟資訊由我方來去主動來去分享給民間跟民間掌握到的資訊讓民間主動去分享給相關的智庫跟或對軍事有影響力的人它的強度是不太一樣的"},{"start":15406.082,"end":15425.757,"text":"所以包含國防部也好比如說不適合我們講的其實是可以由民間的合作的這些企業來去主動來去發布所以軍民之間的合作或者是透過類似這種Defense Innovation Unit還是我不知道我們現在正式名字是DIU還是DIO"},{"start":15426.317,"end":15447.27,"text":"D.I.O我們是用O嘛那以D.I.O來做這個重要的平台我覺得是有它的必要性那事實上美國在D.I.O美國的D.I.O或者是我國的D.I.O都有做一個平台那叫做DEF就是Defense Entrepreneur Forum就是讓這一些跟民間產業"},{"start":15448.931,"end":15470.354,"text":"有關聯的軍事國防相關的企業能夠共同在一個平台定期的聚會讓軍方可以把他們的問題提出來讓這些民間企業能夠來去知道說這是軍方目前所關切的這個產業鏈所以未來當他們去投資或者是要去具備一些產能之後他們就大概知道軍方的方向是什麼"},{"start":15470.894,"end":15491.953,"text":"那比方說是情報相關的話他們也可以主動來去展示就像這一間公司一樣主動展示他們的能力那就會讓這些軍方知道說他們有這些能力之後進而來去獲取這些能力或者是分享這些能力我想這是未來我們要不管說商員的剛才我們稍早提到的商員的多量化的取得"},{"start":15492.674,"end":15519.147,"text":"或者是說讓我們的嚇阻力能夠增加的這種方式我想這些都是我們可以思考的方向我們的DIO其實他們每次跟我報告我都可以看得到他們非常辛苦的在跟我們所有的國內外相關的這些商情然後結合我們的各聯參部門在做相關的這些交流"},{"start":15519.787,"end":15543.885,"text":"那確定我們的需求那如果達到我們的這個需求的時候我們現在也有進行小批量的採購等等那我們會努力來快速引進我們的這些符合我們需求的這些部長剛剛講到小批量多樣化快速這些就是我們未來國防新創創新的一個非常好的方向就是不是要讓"},{"start":15545.166,"end":15571.818,"text":"二三十年的大型廠商來去壟斷這個市場就算他們壟斷市場也沒有辦法及時提供一些我們想要獲得的這些武器或者系統或者服務而是讓很多中小型企業這是我們唯一或許有的優勢因為我們是因為確實在現在這個時代已經在傳統的美國那個幾大軍火商之外有很多新創公司他們都不斷的有非常好的idea好 謝謝"},{"start":15576.471,"end":15579.152,"text":"接下來請鄭正前委員上台質詢主席好我想請一下顧立雄部長還有我們經濟部江文洛次長請顧部長還有經濟部次長江次長"},{"start":15601.778,"end":15614.613,"text":"政委好部長好因為我想說今天特別針對RDX這個採購案去做一個這樣的專報我想請教一下之前國防部應該也買過很多次的RDX對不對"},{"start":15616.178,"end":15643.147,"text":"這不是第一次買嗎沒有就RDX就RDX是第一次是第一次買是不是以前都沒有買過國防部以前都沒有買過這樣子的一個火藥以前國防部有買過非常多的一些火藥的原物料包括發射藥包括B炸藥包括班乃特傳火藥條等等的這些火藥的原物料但是就RDX這一個項目"},{"start":15643.647,"end":15665.434,"text":"是第一次是第一次買嗎第一次在對外採購你剛才有提到我們之前買過很多不同的火藥這麼多火藥的時候我們在這次要採購RTX的時候都沒有特別在尋商嗎因為你提到說前面兩次都是沒有人招標的一個情況在這種情況之下的時候我們國防部都沒有能力去特別去邀請"},{"start":15666.775,"end":15677.133,"text":"之前曾經做過火藥採購的一個相關的一個廠商進來而就直接讓一個做不是這個本業跨行的斜槓的就直接來做這樣一個採購這樣子合理嗎"},{"start":15679.281,"end":15698.237,"text":"沒有沒有跟委員報告我們軍備局事實上在114年2月26號到3月7號就公開徵求傷勤的做過然後也有一些公司來進行報價等等我們都有對外公開傷勤然後也來確認國內有沒有自製的產能等等所以也有公開"},{"start":15699.277,"end":15724.283,"text":"因為我有看到國安部這邊的說法你們基本上說的強調都是合法在合法當中的時候雖然你們覺得合法程序上面合法可是民眾覺得很荒唐現在民眾幾乎是把高燈小吃店去轉賣快篩經營快篩 超市賣雞蛋跟我們現在的福麥賣火藥變成這幾年執政黨的三大奇案"},{"start":15725.103,"end":15740.119,"text":"的一個案子那這當中的時候都有一個很重要的一個點都強調說他們符合基本上面的一個商業登記所以我這邊的時候我想請教一下部長就是說我們國防部在審標的時候就只看它的公司登記跟價格"},{"start":15741.56,"end":15753.563,"text":"對於軍火的原料是不是沒有特別去看它是不是有實質軍工能力或者是經驗都不去看這個部分嗎委員報告因為這個就是一個代理進口所以我才會講過去20年來我們您剛有問到說RDXRDX我們有買過B炸藥"},{"start":15759.485,"end":15785.581,"text":"我們除了披薩藥我們買過這個班萊特傳火藥等等那我們也有買過這個發射藥等等我們所有相關的廠商資格我們都採公開招標廠商的資格20年來都是如此理解他之所以要如此主要的原因就是因為他的重點是在於他能不能取得輸出許可的政策部長我理解因為這程序你剛剛都有講我們的意思是從合約合約來做控制"},{"start":15788.323,"end":15810.345,"text":"那我到特別提到的一個情況就是為什麼我請那個經濟部上來的一個原因就是因為比方說你剛提到說全部都符合這相關的規定可是因為民眾的觀感很差你知道嗎就是一個就是賣小吃店的可以賣快篩現在一個在做裝修的他也可以賣火藥那大家都覺得原來"},{"start":15812.335,"end":15833.623,"text":"本來大家都覺得軍火商應該是有相當大一個門檻可是我們現在發現我們可以這麼輕而易舉的扮演一個軍火商的一個角色這個其實是所以我的意思應該他營業項目要寫個軍火商嗎這個部分就是我想問一下那個經濟部的部分針對比方說目前我提到這幾個案子的時候呢大家都提到了一個商業登記的一個問題"},{"start":15835.143,"end":15864.529,"text":"那就表示商業登記這邊的時候感覺是非常的寬鬆的一個情況讓大家都可以親而一起踩進來那我在想說因為火藥這部分跟我們的國防的一個安全軍力特別有關係所以我在想說我們對於整個軍工原料的一個項目是不是會有一個特別的一個限制而不是現在你只要是一個能夠有國際貿易商有能夠進出口化學原料就可以來做這樣的一個軍火的一個相關的一個動作"},{"start":15865.562,"end":15894.328,"text":"跟委員報告我們在營業登記項目的話如果他不是許可行業他都可以自行來做登記因為這個樣子是讓我們相關的資訊能夠更透明所以RDS像這樣子這麼重要的高爆的導彈原料的時候他也是一個就是基本上你只要能夠取得基本上就可以輕易進口的狀態但是他在輸入的時候在我們在海關稅者有特別的規定他一定要經過"},{"start":15895.708,"end":15923.36,"text":"經濟部的許可才可以進口那我們對於許可的話要做相關文件的查核過去的其他類別的國防部相關的產品也是循這樣的程序來進行的過去20年來所有相關這些火藥的進口也都是如此因為它是屬於要依照限制性貨品輸入許可管制品項要依經濟部定班的貨品輸入管理辦法取得進口的同意文件"},{"start":15923.9,"end":15939.589,"text":"部長 你把過去這十年我們有相關的一個火藥你覺得是類似的火藥的進口的一個相關的資料包括進口的廠商他們各自職的條件都給我一份資料因為我想要知道說這樣的一個裝修公司的一個能夠去賣火藥您竟然會覺得它是一個我想只要是公開的資料我們都會願意購買沒問題 因為這基本上如果是公開的採購應該都會有"},{"start":15947.674,"end":15968.965,"text":"我想知道過去這十年的時候我們國防部的相關的一個火藥的一個採購都是這麼樣子的輕鬆那麼不同的領域的都可以跨界斜槓進來做這樣的一個軍火的一個買賣交易嗎所以我想知道有這完整的一個資料請部長之後再給我一個完整的資料我們給您20年的資料好的 謝謝"},{"start":15973.513,"end":15998.215,"text":"好 謝謝已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃人委員 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那今天很榮幸受經濟委員會的邀請到立法院經濟委員會報告2027年全面禁止廚藝養豬的一個專題報告"},{"start":1865.987,"end":1885.428,"text":"那以下就用簡報向各位委員做簡單的一個說明目前全國的養豬戶大概是5552戶那整個自給率大概是88.7過往 大概是88到90之間表示說我們國產豬肉還是深受國內的一個喜愛那114年現在目前是83.1那最主要是"},{"start":1887.31,"end":1904.581,"text":"因為肥肉豬瘟造成的一個禁止廚藝的15天造成一些豬肉沒辦法上市導致這個自給力短期的一個下降那整個廚藝兩豬政策事實上在107年開始農業部當時農委會基本上就是"},{"start":1905.799,"end":1933.277,"text":"一直積極的加強整個廚藝養豬戶的一個轉型那從107年的2048場一直降到現在目前大概在肥肉豬瘟發生之前大概436場那在110年我們也曾經禁止廚藝養豬一個月然後那時候有新的一個規定就是200頭以上而且由地方政府合法再利用檢核資格的養豬場才可以去做廚養豬而且整個的一個"},{"start":1934.782,"end":1953.017,"text":"徵阻一定要90度C一個小時以上那在114年10月20號再度發生深圳人發生了臺灣肥肉豬的一個首例那我們同時再度禁止廚藝養豬那整個廚藝養豬經過疫調的過程因經過整個所有的一個內部的一個檢討就是"},{"start":1954.605,"end":1983.376,"text":"我們最後確定是全面禁止廚養豬但是給予一年的轉型最後的一個期限就是在116年的1月1號狀況預定全面禁止廚養豬但在這個之前如果地方政府願意提早的話都是因為這是地方自治的一個事項由地方政府自行決定那在轉型期的期間就是明年1月1號到明年的12月31號那你如果要用廚養豬的話你是有條件的使用"},{"start":1984.076,"end":2001.074,"text":"必須要經過監測加強落實 集合還有法令完備三個要件同時這些處於養豬的車子也必須裝載7BS才可以進行處於養豬那在農業部的部分我們還是持續地去全面輔導整個養豬場轉用飼料"},{"start":2004.107,"end":2018.006,"text":"那轉型期間允許未租的廚餘的料源大概分為幾類第一個部分就是我們是允許事業廚餘動物性廢紮及屠宰下甲料但是禁止使用家務廚餘那植物性的料源"},{"start":2019.567,"end":2043.706,"text":"一直持續都可以使用的部分那環境部未來會用正面表列的方式來提供廚藝的類型以利廚藝養豬場明確的一個使用那為了降低廚藝料源混雜的一個風險那同時要求廚藝養豬屋提出他收取端的一個廚藝的料源的場所清單來由地方政府審視而同意場所的一個清單"},{"start":2044.526,"end":2070.547,"text":"那另外環境部也將要求地方清潔隊所收的廚藝不可標售給養豬戶那由這張表可以看得出來目前大概是421場那這個場數會持續的在減少那在在明年的1月31號之前如果你決定不使用廚藝養豬的話那就是由農業部來補助轉型的一個飼料養豬那如果說你"},{"start":2071.608,"end":2099.348,"text":"決定在明年度能夠持續的用廚藝養豬的一年的過渡期的話那你必須符合三個要件就是廚藝的徵組一定要做及時的一個監視系統然後同時你要裝加上CBS那相關的法令規定農業部跟環境部都已經完成了一個相關的一個法令規範的研議那在這個情況之下最重要就是一定要經過地方政府同意"},{"start":2099.728,"end":2117.347,"text":"那同意以後你才能夠開始在明年1月1號開始使用廚藝養豬如果在明年1月1號之前你如果還沒有完成裝置相關的溫度及顯示影像的時候那原來核准的在地用資格就會失效不得重新申請"},{"start":2118.368,"end":2137.107,"text":"那整個相關的一個措施那大概分為幾個部分就是我們提供了飼料叉的一個補助然後維持市場的一個公訂那相關的後續的這些轉型的部分農業部會針對轉型提供相關的一個衛生設施的一個補助系統然後同時給予"},{"start":2138.248,"end":2159.473,"text":"租場的一個轉型的一個金融的支持同時更重要的是我們為了讓黑豬的產業能夠永續我們也成立了黑豬產業的一個專案輔導團隊那在第一階段第二階段這個都已經第一階段大概是15天的部分我們做了飼料差的一個補貼那第二階段是到12月31號我們持續會給予飼料差的一個補貼"},{"start":2163.444,"end":2190.92,"text":"那在開始去做這樣處理轉型的部分我們大概分為兩個部分在明年1月31號之前如果你願意接受轉型為飼料養豬者那每頭大概是3600塊同時我們也給予相關的衛生設備的一個補助從30萬到300萬之間但是如果說你在明年的1月31號以後才決定用飼料"},{"start":2191.9,"end":2207.448,"text":"去做這樣子一個轉型的話那你的那個補助的部分大概是減半大概每頭是1800那會這樣的一個設計最主要是鼓勵我們的業者提早的去做這樣轉型然後也能夠接受我們農業部的一個輔導"},{"start":2208.837,"end":2226.663,"text":"那整個黑豬產業輔導的專案大概分為兩個部分短期的部分我們會持續的辦這個相關的說明會跟座談會那去從事相關的一個技術輔導同時我們也會提供相關的商業用的飼料配方及我們續日所提供的"},{"start":2227.603,"end":2255.369,"text":"那個飼料替代的配方來做推廣然後同時我們會針對黑豬的品牌做整體的一個行銷來舉辦黑豬的共識營那中長期的部分除了做這樣子一個配方的持續的改良以外那其實我們會透過公私協力來加速優良的這些黑豬品系的一個選育來建構整個黑豬的保種的策略然後同時兼顧防疫及營養的需求我們會持續的"},{"start":2256.829,"end":2276.672,"text":"透過公司協力來建構除以飼料化的一個系統那整體來講這次除以養豬的政策調整是我國面對非洲豬瘟威脅下的一個關鍵的一個防疫的措施那為了兼顧防疫與各地方政府除以去化以及除以養豬獲得轉型的一個食物中央部會將"},{"start":2279.018,"end":2300.718,"text":"協同地方政府以最高的標準落實非洲豬瘟的一個防疫工作那透過配套的一個補助金融的支持及技術的輔導來協助養豬戶者做穩健的一個轉型確保防疫疫情不再入侵我國穩固我們整個養豬的一個產業這也是我們最大共同努力的一個目標那請委員相關支持 謝謝"},{"start":2301.957,"end":2319.997,"text":"好謝謝農業部部長的一個報告謝謝那我們現在確認醫事錄請問各位同仁剛剛所唸的醫事錄有沒有意見好沒有意見我們醫事錄確認接下來我們請衛生環境部省自修省長治來做報告謝謝"},{"start":2329.673,"end":2356.631,"text":"主席還有各位委員大家早安大家好環境部針對廚餘去化的部分的規劃來跟各位委員做一個專案報告我們知道在10月23號之後我們政府就做了一個決定就是禁止廚餘養豬一直到今天為止那這段時間我們有統計的各縣市的這個廚餘所產生的量那大概是1755公噸"},{"start":2358.832,"end":2370.146,"text":"那也盤點了我們國內可以再利用的這樣的一個廚餘的量大概是1100公噸那這段時間各縣市所採取的方式以魂化跟掩埋佔56%那再利用部分佔44%好 下一頁"},{"start":2375.711,"end":2399.495,"text":"那在這段時間目前大概還有416家的養豬場他有減核的許可那我們環境部跟農業單位進行了這個嚴密的一個稽查每週一輪的方式全面清查到目前為止已經查了8輪那只要查到不合格的部分都依照相關法規來做處分下一頁"},{"start":2401.001,"end":2418.891,"text":"那在這個轉型的期間因為我們知道落日是一年的時間那未來可以繼續養豬的部分我們用正面表列的方式來讓大家能夠理解那可以養豬的部分包括集中工廠的剩食餐廳超市賣場的過期品以及食品工廠的下甲藥"},{"start":2419.631,"end":2445.008,"text":"那将来如果要轻运送去养猪场继续处于养猪的部分轻运的车辆必须要装GPS那很明确的告诉大家就是只要是清洁队收的厨余都不可以养猪那公寓大厦以及这个小吃餐等等也都列在不可以处于养猪的一个范围下一页那正面表列的方式是让大家更能够理解产生源哪一些是可以养猪的好下一页"},{"start":2446.344,"end":2472.073,"text":"我們也盤點這樣的一個量能以目前來講就是到今年年底之後有一年的轉型啟示可以繼續事業處於養豬那這個部分不能養豬的部分這個不能處於養豬的部分就會進到再利用或者是妥善處理的管道包括魂化跟掩埋那我們估計一下目前的再利用量能是1100噸那在未來的一年各縣市會再增加600噸左右那"},{"start":2472.873,"end":2499.579,"text":"可能會需要魂化掩埋的數量大概是200多噸那到了這個明年底之後呢因為已經全面禁止處於養豬但是也因為民間有這樣的一個再利用量能上來所以估計會去魂化掩埋的數量會到395但是到了隔一年之後再利用量能又再上來400噸左右所以到那個時候已經是平衡了國內的循環再利用量能就會大於產生量好 下一頁"},{"start":2500.731,"end":2520.984,"text":"那這段配套期間環境部跟農業部必須要做的事情包括我們要求繼續要養豬的業者必須要有檢核許可必須要能夠安裝即時的監控設備然後運送的車輛要裝GPS那對於這段時間如果是採用文化廠處理的各縣市那必須要加測這個帶要心"},{"start":2522.878,"end":2549.186,"text":"必須要符合環境的一個規範那另外這段時間我們也請擱淺室必須要增加這個在利用的處理設施包括堆毀黑水門或者是生殖棱等等做好準備那另外環境部也會跟這個教育部農業部共同來推洗食的部分從源頭來減量鼓勵我們的市民朋友吃多少點多少不要浪費食物那麼能夠讓源頭就可以做最好的一個減量好下一頁"},{"start":2550.026,"end":2562.562,"text":"那這段時間環境部跟農業部都必須要對相關的法規包括智慧監控以及裝GPS要有完備的法令目前正在進行當中到12月31號之前一定會完成法令的一個準備好 下一頁"},{"start":2563.735,"end":2577.781,"text":"那這段時間呢我們也開發了31家廠商可以來協助我們的養豬廠裝設智慧監控設備那目前有277家養豬廠他有申請的意願那已經完成裝設的有到今天為止有133家下一頁"},{"start":2581.087,"end":2601.292,"text":"那這段時間我們特別也關注用焚化處理的這個25座焚化爐他必須要去控制好這樣的一個操作讓他可以不要造成環境的負擔那也加測這個黛奧辛那目前加測黛奧辛出來的結果大概都比他過去三年的這個數值還略低好 下一頁"},{"start":2602.523,"end":2625.965,"text":"那我們看除以量能的規劃到明年年底之前在一年之間會增加大概有600噸的這樣的一個再利用設施116年會再增加400噸左右到了116年底就平衡了那麼117年還會有400噸的這個生殖能的設施會再上來所以將來的這個除以走再利用這個部分就可以完全步上軌道下一頁"},{"start":2627.677,"end":2656.263,"text":"那這段時間三個部會環境部 教育部 農業部都會對食農教育 洗食的部分會展開全面性的一個推廣下一頁那我們會跟農業部在今年年底之前完成所謂的法規的準備那麼也會輔導各縣市加速興建這樣的一個再利用設施那三個部會共同來推動洗食教育以上是環境部跟行政團隊對廚餘去化的一個規劃 以上報告"},{"start":2657.657,"end":2679.11,"text":"好 我們謝謝環境部次長所做的報告那麼有關本次會議各部會所提的書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那現在我們進行詢答委員詢答前我們尋舊例以下做如此的宣告"},{"start":2679.83,"end":2696.056,"text":"每位委員發言時間6分鐘 必要時增加1分鐘非本委員會4分鐘那麼上午10點半截止登記首先請第一位的林黛華委員請做詢答有請陳部長我們請陳部長國務委員好"},{"start":2705.282,"end":2729.648,"text":"好 防疫底線不能靠運氣 廚餘本質是廢棄物而不是飼料所以本身第一個防疫優先產業要活所以本席非常肯定現在行政院一個很重要的決策全面禁用廚餘養豬那當然豬肉是國人最重要的肉品 自給率也都達到8成5所以一旦非洲豬瘟全面爆發 國產豬停擺"},{"start":2731.588,"end":2757.294,"text":"供给的缺口可能五成以上租价的飙涨受害的不只是这60万的养猪从业人口而是全体的消费者所以今天讨论的这个不是环保的小议题其实是台湾猪产业跟人民餐桌的大议题所以这一次的非洲猪瘟是猪农一生的破产风险但是它不该是正策是错的代价"},{"start":2757.814,"end":2760.436,"text":"所以本席主张应该把现有的"},{"start":2787.714,"end":2812.134,"text":"好 部長你請回應謝謝委員的一個建議就是我們把相關的禁止廚養豬放到飼料管理法是一個方法那現在我們是用動產條例的本身是規定它不能夠做相關的這些廚藝的移動那後續我想我會針對委員的建議看看是不是可以更強烈的直接放到飼料管理法裡面來處理"},{"start":2812.915,"end":2826.189,"text":"那我覺得應該要直接因為你剛才講的你那個動物那個相關的那個法令只是禁止廚餘的移動但是你全面禁用廚餘的政策那既然是這樣"},{"start":2827.546,"end":2848.292,"text":"你就是得寫進飼料管理法所以部長您是願意來做我想我們回去內部討論如果說寫下去如果說我們現在做的方法效果是一樣的話我們會先做因為進到飼料管理法的話還會進到立法院裡面整個法案的一個審查那可能需要一點時間我們回去再來做相關的一個配套的研究"},{"start":2848.692,"end":2867.578,"text":"好OK好那廚餘的責任應該回到政府不應該讓8%的豬替全國處理30%的廚餘所以其實依我們高雄為例為了接住禁廚餘的壓力高雄已經把兩座的堆肥廠從每日的8噸拓成為27噸並規劃以BOT的模式來一座"},{"start":2872.359,"end":2900.894,"text":"興建一座日處理120度的生殖能源廠興建至少要兩到三年才能真正的扛起現在送去焚化的大部分的廚餘所以在這邊我剛才也看到環境部的報告其實也相對的完整把堆肥掩埋廠即將的在116年退廠然後在生殖能的部分等相關的去化也做了"},{"start":2901.334,"end":2915.132,"text":"一個量能的提升跟補助所以這一點我就也不要再問下去 所以環境部的做法我本席非常的肯定 不過我在這邊也要求環境部是不是時間暫停一下 我請次長我們請次長"},{"start":2921.294,"end":2944.49,"text":"好市長針對環境部我這邊要求在明年6月底前這個你是否能提出全國除於去化量能跟缺口的報告而且這當中除了再一次的把2025年到2028年全國除於產生的量的預估以及各年度堆肥生殖能黑水盲等"},{"start":2945.05,"end":2960.278,"text":"可能量能與缺口以及各縣市也包含全面停用除以養豬的縣市跨區調度計劃與風險管理也能夠提供給立法院呢可以好OK謝謝好再來我們在針對"},{"start":2961.959,"end":2979.839,"text":"這邊在 次長您請回 部長我看到您的簡報第10頁長城的規劃為兼顧防疫跟營養需求公私協力建構 廚餘飼料化體系是否部長您要清楚再說明一下什麼叫做廚餘飼料化"},{"start":2980.928,"end":3010.728,"text":"我跟委員報告因為廚藝現在目前的再利用大概除了做能源化 堆核化以外那一個非常重要的就是廚藝如果經過工廠化相關的把水濾乾成為規格化它也是可以變成一個飼料的一個產品就像日本的那個eco feed這樣的一個方式所以我們也曾經到日本去看過 去觀摩過所以未來的我們會協助目前的一個已經有的苗栗的珍珠中心裡面我們去協助它把它變成一個飼料化的"},{"start":3010.828,"end":3034.443,"text":"一個工廠那這樣的話規格的飼料花也可以來餵豬它的用途呢能夠餵相關的豬隻還要餵豬隻喔 部長沒有 我跟委員報告就是飼料沒有 廚藝變成飼料花它就是飼料了它不再是用廚藝只是它的料源是廚藝但是最後出來的是一個有規格的成分的標記的一個飼料"},{"start":3036.684,"end":3064.01,"text":"好那本席就要求了如果你這個國內要引進Ecofeed的話你需明訂來源製程檢驗稽查與禁止項目這一定會而且呢我本席要求是要用在相關法規內用專章處理或者是您要用一個專法來做Ecofeed這樣子的一個政策方向所以如果在未修法前你的Ecofeed的試驗當然是"},{"start":3067.091,"end":3091.383,"text":"僅得用於非食用食物那就是說你是不是要回歸用到豬啊當然牛羊是吃草啦這個豬不能用到回歸到當你在試驗的時候你是不是馬上就要用到這樣的豬隻還是說在你試驗的這樣過程當中你應該用到非食用動物而且因為你還沒有立法"},{"start":3092.143,"end":3099.696,"text":"所以我認為你在Ecofeed這樣的實驗階段到應該是要謹慎的所以這個您怎麼看"},{"start":3100.622,"end":3122.69,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我想我們在正式的推出EcoFit類似這樣的廚藝飼料的話第一個部分法規一定會完備它然後會做很明確的料源的一個使用不是所有的料源都適合做這樣的一個廚藝飼料化的部分那第三個的話整個飼料本身也要經過相關的一個檢驗而且它的品規也會做檢驗"},{"start":3123.45,"end":3149.731,"text":"好我在這邊提醒就是如果你要積極開發廚餘飼料化產品就要有義務把防疫跟法治走在前面而不是讓豬隻跟豬農再一次替國家的適風險好再來這個補助轉型補助要有效而不是逼豬農非法求生在本席要問的時候我想了解這個百億豬隻的基金"},{"start":3150.752,"end":3165.379,"text":"我們的養豬基金從第一期的百億到現在我聽說到行政院這邊你們下修到50億那到底行政院是到底金額是多少那第二個是什麼時候要核定"},{"start":3167.416,"end":3186.491,"text":"我跟委員報告就是第二期的這樣子一個養豬的一個升級韌性的部分大概50.52億左右那他另外會未來會外加一個就是我們的那個鋪子的一個養豬那個什麼肉品市場那個經費另外做切割所以現在是50.52億百億的養豬現在變成50多億什麼時候合"},{"start":3192.263,"end":3221.323,"text":"應該在年底之前應該會合下來年底之前有點太慢了這個疫情都要過了我們都進入到第二個階段了部長您是否同意在2026年逐季公開轉型的進度跟補助使用情形也就是明年你在做這樣的轉型當中你還是要公開這樣的轉型進度跟補助情形第二個2027年以後轉型後你如果飼料的租成本仍然過高"},{"start":3222.283,"end":3242.982,"text":"农业部是否还会追加预算持续补助呢第一个部分我想我们一定会每个月我们都会公开不是每一季每个月都会公开现在转型的这样一个进度然后第二个部分就是2027年以后如果说租资我想你的"},{"start":3244.352,"end":3260.203,"text":"成本會跟原來的廚餘相比那廚餘本身的費用就比較低我們應該看整體的豬農的收益跟白豬或是黑豬的這些收益我希望他是拉能夠誤差會比較小一點這是我們努力的目標部長"},{"start":3261.264,"end":3284.643,"text":"這個我只是一個提醒不要像我們現在政府推的青年購屋貸款青年購屋貸款給他優惠前五年你不用繳本金你只要繳利息第六年開始繳本金現在就是第六年之後其實還是繳不起因為你的薪資根本趕不上讓你去繳你的貸款的本金"},{"start":3285.143,"end":3308.028,"text":"所以這樣的一個政策 那好意變成是一個 反而是青年的負擔啦所以我提醒你 你2026年 大力的補助啊那這個到底我們飼養的成本 還是這麼高的情況之下你嘎然的說好 我不補助你農民了 你的飼料費用了那可能又是另外一場的這個民怨爆發 我只是善意提醒你"},{"start":3308.588,"end":3328.392,"text":"好 再來最後 農業部在這邊 以上除以退出豬男士防疫的底線也是國家責任的開始本席也希望我們兩個部會能夠在我們一起加油打氣希望在禁止廚餘入豬請農業部儘速的將寫進農業管理法在這邊對於農業部也要很明確的就是把廚餘當作自己的廢棄物的責任"},{"start":3336.593,"end":3348.803,"text":"那我們一起來為這樣的防疫的底線能夠守住成為國家責任 好 謝謝 以上謝謝委員謝謝接下來我們請邱議員委員請做詢談謝謝主席 我請一下陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":3367.659,"end":3380.029,"text":"委員好 部長好部長我想剛剛這個我們今天談到的這個廚餘養豬的問題還是要再進一步請教就剛剛的報告裡頭我們還我想要釐清幾個問題就是說"},{"start":3383.195,"end":3402.114,"text":"2027年開始我們就全面禁止廚餘養豬所以過去的那個已經正式申請合法廚餘養豬的現在台灣大概還有420間嘛這420間的養豬場他們的廚餘徵主設備你現在說明年一定要把它全部拆完對不對"},{"start":3402.794,"end":3421.932,"text":"過去這些人是因為我們的政策支持所以他去申請了合法的廚餘蒸煮設備是現在政策轉彎要求他們明年就要把它全部拆除請問這個損失是算在誰身上是豬農自己要負責嗎還是政府會有一些相關的補貼第二個"},{"start":3423.632,"end":3438.505,"text":"接下來的這一些全面禁止廚餘剛剛有提到了植物性的料源這件事情我一直還沒有聽得很完整就是說植物性的料源是可以未來持續用在養豬嗎還是它也是有一個過渡期"},{"start":3439.306,"end":3464.256,"text":"如果他可以持續用在養豬的話請問這些植物性的料源要不要蒸煮該不該蒸煮需不需要蒸煮如果不需要蒸煮的話直接拿下去餵豬豬可以吃得下去可以受得了嗎那如果需要蒸煮的話那你現在的這些蒸煮設備拆掉又或者是他上面就鋪了一層"},{"start":3465.456,"end":3493.288,"text":"植物性的的這個廚餘下面還是一些家用的或者是什麼樣的這些肉的這些的廚餘該如何追緝該如何管來部長第一個我跟委員報告就是有關於廚餘養豬的部分珍珠設備一定要就是轉成飼料的話他要拆除但是我們對應的補助是30萬到300萬的一個一個衛視系統的一個補助等於說是取代他的"},{"start":3494.068,"end":3522.417,"text":"一個增組設備的部分他本來所以你還是要補助他去購買其他的設備就是對 就是衛視設備飼料的衛視設備根據規模30萬到300萬等於說用替代的方式來取代他目前的第二個部分 植物性料園是一直都是可以使用我們從來沒有禁止過那委員說得很好就是說未來增組設備我們一定要拆掉如果不拆的話讓他植物性料園在原來的場域增組的話"},{"start":3523.177,"end":3550.99,"text":"就很有可能造成他又做一個非法的廚餘的使用所以我們現在會規劃有一些共同的類似共同的現在目前苗栗的一個共同增儲中心是不是有機會把它變成一個植物性料園或者是廚餘的飼料的一個加工廠我們希望用這樣的方式來提供給豬農部長您剛剛講苗栗這個是統一的增儲中心嗎這個是屬於苗栗縣政府的還是是屬於中央的私人的"},{"start":3551.73,"end":3577.605,"text":"私人的徵主中心那可是你們現在又講說徵主中心你們要未來要把它統一轉換成EcoFit那這個跟你原來的跟你剛剛講的前面的政策有沒有互相的矛盾共同徵主中心那你如果說可以用共同徵主中心徵主好去提供給豬農去提供來這些不管是這個植物性的料源或者是家用的"},{"start":3578.755,"end":3601.042,"text":"還是說以後都只有植物性的家用的完全都不能做 家用完全是不能用的所以你就是植物性的植物性的透過這個珍珠中心來提供給豬農去養豬不一定是只有苗栗這個廠因為植物性的料園如果有願意成立一個共同珍珠只有植物性料園的部分我們是很樂意來輔導的"},{"start":3602.402,"end":3610.291,"text":"那另外現在有的共同政府中心我們會把他服務到轉型成為廚餘的飼料化工廠這是兩件不同的事情"},{"start":3611.175,"end":3632.094,"text":"那你覺得有沒有可能會有人鑽這個漏洞比如說我上面就鋪了一層厚厚的植物性料園下面還是廚餘你又看不出來你又不能每一桶每一桶翻箱來檢查所以這個就是說我們要用共同的珍珠中心因為共同的珍珠中心它不需要那麼多廠那樣子的話集合就可以很容易集合得到"},{"start":3632.674,"end":3652.989,"text":"所以這個集合是你們集合還是是環境部我想是環境部跟我們我想還有地方政府最主要是地方政府要集合我想我們中央跟地方一定跨部會一定會一起所以這個管理辦法有設計好了嗎現在還在討論因為現在還在討論包括其實部長我要談的就是說包括你們講這個GPS"},{"start":3657.574,"end":3687.246,"text":"用GPS去追蹤到底你的這些植物性的料源從哪裡收植物性的料源需不需要裝GPS目前看起來好像沒有沒有在明年的過渡期的話他不會只在植物性料源他也會在一些事業廚餘那這個廚餘的車子一定要裝GPS更重要的是這些廚餘的車子去哪邊收他一定要先提出一個清單由環境部跟地方政府確認過以後才可以"},{"start":3687.346,"end":3700.583,"text":"部長所以你未來會是植物性的料源跟事業廢棄物事業的廚餘都是同一個一套設備在收嘛是不是所以你的植物性料源有可能那個桶子裡頭其實它也曾經裝過了事業的廚餘對"},{"start":3704.332,"end":3729.845,"text":"那你還是把它混雜在一起啊這是過渡期是可以因為過渡期是可以廚餘養豬可以用事業廚餘所以我剛就點到了這個問題你在過渡期裡頭你應該要怎麼樣的去做管理以免交叉感染了解那這個管理的模式跟運作的方式我覺得這個可能也是農業部一個很頭痛或者是應該要趕快及手去處理的包括你們跟環境部之間應該要處理的"},{"start":3731.462,"end":3750.491,"text":"一個很重要的核心議題如何避免交叉感染如何的有效的把這一些的事業廚餘或者是植物性的料源做很清楚的分類讓它能夠用在可以使用的地方那剛剛我們講的EcoFit的這些未來的把它轉換成飼料這個進程"},{"start":3754.534,"end":3768.031,"text":"這個規劃這個設廠啦建置啦其實都需要兩三年的時間那你很快的明年年底就不能再用廚餘養豬了到你的新的EcoFit的廠建置好這中間會有一到兩年的gap那這個要如何去補足"},{"start":3768.852,"end":3786.472,"text":"如何去處理這件事情我想這個也要有賴農業部跟環境部去做更進一步的相關的規劃好那接下來因為時間剩下不多我要請教一下菲律賓現在禁止台灣的豬肉進口我想請教這是防疫的考量還是政治的考量"},{"start":3787.129,"end":3811.668,"text":"第一个部分是防疫的考量因为一般生鲜猪肉部分如果说你是疫区的话那相关的根据WHOH规范是不可以输出的所以我们也是主动停止发这个证但是加工用的部分是还可以的包括日本包括新加坡所以是生鲜不行但是加工的是还可以要看国家日本是同意的然后新加坡也同意"},{"start":3812.589,"end":3839.234,"text":"這兩個最主要的都同意所以剛剛部長您講到日本同意 新加坡同意是加工的加工的這些肉品是可以的所以它不會產生我們所謂一連串的骨牌效應也不會對於台灣的這些豬肉出口的信譽造成重大的影響因為我看農業部農業部大概對於這個評估因為好像你們認為我們出口菲律賓其實量是非常少的所以對於整個出口的影響是非常的低但是我擔心的是整個"},{"start":3840.154,"end":3867.148,"text":"政治的考量或者是整個骨牌效益所以我這個還是要請部長您再更明確的回答一下我第一個部分就是生鮮的豬肉基本上禁止不同的國家禁止進入它的國家是因為WHO的規範是一個防疫的考量但是加工的部分因為你也是一個防疫因為你加工以後是可以的部分那相關的日本 新加坡"},{"start":3868.689,"end":3878.28,"text":"這個國家都同意我們去所以沒有所謂的政治的考量好 您確定沒有政治的考量沒有政治的考量好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢問"},{"start":3905.44,"end":3920.766,"text":"現在陳部長跟次長我們再請兩位 謝謝我們肯定你們這段時間非常努力的方式這個"},{"start":3922.65,"end":3940.962,"text":"這個非洲豬瘟現在問題是 現在看起來那個廚餘禁止養豬之後 現在看起來很多地方都得那個後遺症還有很多地方都需要你們大力去幫忙像現在當地的重大問題現在各個很多地方的那個焚化爐壓力都很大這次市長一直在點頭你有加氣氣 加氣氣這個兩座焚化爐 它那個焚化量一天210.96公噸現在給它廚餘"},{"start":3950.462,"end":3977.693,"text":"這缸的差不多20.20公噸那現在做了我們做了前面禁止這個廚藝養豬之後那個壓力就更大了當然嘉義市政府很努力啦他馬上就提出了很多的這個這個緊急的這個措施包括希望就是說要落實這個分類然後廚藝瀝乾以後瀝乾 瀝乾水分之後放到廚藝桶裡面去回收各個縣市政府也很努力的做這件事情然後嘉義市還有很特別的一間我今天要派出去"},{"start":3978.874,"end":4005.551,"text":"嘉義市有推這個綠能永續循環園區這個裡面有六大類裡面有一個是抵紮的在利用場那個環境部環境部在去年有做了一部分的這個幫忙它總經費1億1235萬那環境部有做的幫忙那現在更需要了所以要請多幫忙好不好另外一個做特別的跟這個廚藝有很大關係你看它有特別設立一個廚藝在利用場"},{"start":4006.909,"end":4032.687,"text":"因為現在發生了這個非洲疏溫之後好 現在已經很緊張了所以他們在議會就市政府緊急追加 議會通過了他的這個預算特等預算 我跟你講 拜託保證給我促進就在嘉義市那個廚藝那個廚藝在利用場這部分多幫忙 好不好其實各個縣市政府他只要這個廚藝在利用場趕快做好這個壓力才能減輕啦 好不好OK 好 那另外呢 我要幫"},{"start":4034.005,"end":4060.934,"text":"我們的同學跟團山業者請命現在就另外一個很嚴重的問題就是營養午餐會不會漲價的問題現在團山業者現在我們做了一個政策的改變嘛 對不對做一個政策改變 改變以後之後現在業者要去清印 量太大了所以現在有卡住 甚至有些價格都在往上跑嘛這是第一個問題 那第二個更嚴重囉那團山業者那個費用增加了"},{"start":4064.75,"end":4075.534,"text":"其實現在最擔心的是什麼會不會造成我們的營養午餐漲價影響到我們的小朋友這部分是不是兩個部位可以做什麼樣的幫忙跟委員報告一下"},{"start":4076.707,"end":4101.105,"text":"如果是在未來的一年因為事業廚藝學校團散集中供應的盛使是可以繼續廚藝養豬的在未來的一年裡面我們估計因為目前大概有277個養豬廠已經提出要申請裝設智慧監控設備他為什麼要裝就是他想要繼續廚藝養豬那目前已經裝好了有133個廠"},{"start":4103.146,"end":4128.826,"text":"那因為將來的那個料園只剩下事業廚餘那家戶的廚餘是禁止養豬的所以大家會搶那個料園所以學校團散的料園是可以繼續養豬的我們估計可能會有一些繼續養豬的養豬廠會去接收已經不再就農業部有轉型嘛他有補助他們就不再吃廚餘的那這個部分的那個產生源的部分會由繼續養豬的部分去接收"},{"start":4129.466,"end":4150.003,"text":"現在就是很多人來陳情 團山業者現在很緊張包括中華民國 餐盒 食品 商業同業公會 聯合會 理屬店陳明信你就說了嘛他現在就是說 現在整個廚餘量大爆炸嘛所以業者現在忙不過來對不對跟委員報告 他講的問題是最近這兩個禮拜的事情 不是未來一年"},{"start":4150.623,"end":4172.1,"text":"因為這兩個禮拜是這段時間是禁止廚餘養豬的全部沒地方去那這段時間的確是各縣市政府都面臨這樣的一個清運因為剛好有一些養豬業者他就不再吃廚藝他就這個時候決定就不再去收運了以至於這個時候會有缺口大家很辛苦啦"},{"start":4172.66,"end":4191.589,"text":"所以各縣市目前作業的方式就是用清潔隊去收運或者是用開口合約以及清除業者來清除那這個部分的清運費用中央都有補助清運跟處理費用都不收錢他說現在一攤的廚藝用200公斤去省他們這個一天大概處理30桶一家如果30桶一天就給5萬出來我知道 這就是成本啦所以市長"},{"start":4200.754,"end":4218.89,"text":"我們都有關注這個議題啦短時間之內的處理方式還有未來一年我要跟委員報告大家在估計說轉型之後可能會有他不送去廚餘養豬那成本就會墊高啦因為你再利用不管用黑水門或堆毀等等那個成本都會有所謂的清運跟處理的費用"},{"start":4219.631,"end":4241.645,"text":"那這個部分有去估算以市場的行情大概要到8000塊左右啦那當我們轉嫁之後我們估計小朋友的剩食每個人到底會漲多少這個當然也跟你的一開始菜單的設計營養健康也要美味可口啊那如果能夠源頭就減少廚餘的產生量那需要廚餘的量就會降低各個學校都在努力當中"},{"start":4242.165,"end":4254.12,"text":"現在三個三個大問題要運得出去嘛你說有補助還要怎麼進一步去幫忙這個你要讓他運得出去這個要做要努力要加快跟加大好不好第二個這個顯然就是他的"},{"start":4256.021,"end":4273.144,"text":"成本提高了所以你們有一部分的補助對不對那要多幫幫他們渡過這個難關第三個比較重要我覺得第三個比較重要就是你剛剛提的不能夠轉嫁弄到後來問題前面這兩個問題沒有解決弄到後來學生營養午餐受影響所以前面兩個解決完之後第三個去注意"},{"start":4275.827,"end":4291.066,"text":"跟委員報告好營養午餐剛有講就是說菜單的設計很重要盡量不要產生剩食那另外教育部也關心這個議題他們也有參與到這個系統裡面去看看怎麼樣去讓源頭可以減量"},{"start":4291.827,"end":4303.044,"text":"然後是不是營養午餐會反應實際的那這個要看市場機制另外就是餐飲業餐飲業可能也會因為這樣子那使用者要付費這個也必須要去面對這個議題其實就是我們"},{"start":4305.768,"end":4322.873,"text":"我們就肯定你們做的這些措施那就是說可是是政策的一個改變所以改變這個過程裡面他們很多人需要幫忙包括不會影響血統你們要多努力 是不是是因為政策的改變好 接下來有兩個很重要其實要改變社會問題不然要怎樣再利用"},{"start":4324.278,"end":4351.221,"text":"第一個 我要問你一個很重要的其實2018年的時候那時候你們就有宣布說包括要在六都規劃三座生殖的廚藝廠對不對有嘛 對不對共同珍珠廠嗎不是 生殖的廚藝廠我去查報竟然跟台中有嘛生殖能源中心嗎是 好對生殖廚藝廠嘛現在欠少了一座啦"},{"start":4352.267,"end":4377.734,"text":"跟委員報告目前運作中的就是桃園生殖能源中心他生熟廚餘都可以處理一天135噸那個是我當局長的時候花包的我在桃園當過局長跟委員報告那台中市那一座廠是只有處理生廚餘的部分但目前他在規劃是不是也能夠添加一些熟廚餘那台中市現在非常努力在處理這個部分我們也協助台中市環保局面對這個議題"},{"start":4378.974,"end":4403.506,"text":"那另外已經花包中的有欄頭有100噸現在在上網招標中那大概兩年後會蓋好另外台南有一個160噸的高雄有一個150噸的也在規劃中那也可能會是在117年興建完成那個次長這個是在108年的時候農業部跟環境部對外公開的我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":4405.017,"end":4430.002,"text":"今天為什麼政策基於風險的管控要做一個落日如果你不做落日的話那個廚餘都跑到養豬場去了啦所以這些民間的在利用設施沒有量能收不到廚餘啦那今天政府已經拍板了一年的轉型期之後就落日所以市場已經看到這樣的一個商機那我們地方政府也看到這樣的在利用必須要新設所以環境部會來協助地方政府加速"},{"start":4431.062,"end":4447.697,"text":"這個政策要趕快落實因為目前進度是落後的啦那我們現在現在就是要再利用嘛 對不對日本最成功的是什麼就是飼料化 對不對我看前幾天有立委跟環境部還一起農業部有人去嗎去日本考察對不對"},{"start":4448.615,"end":4465.383,"text":"我們農業部安排的是農業部安排那回來做了那個做了檢討報告了嗎怎麼去學習日本日本飼料化做得很成功是因為什麼他有飼料的集中處理處理廠對不對那台灣到現在還沒有我想日本能夠成功基本上除了料園第二個部分就是"},{"start":4465.883,"end":4489.786,"text":"他們在廚藝的分類做得相當不錯他們的家戶廚藝是直接進到垃圾場去的他們用的是事業廚藝還有食品廠的一個下腳料的部分那相關的這個部分我想我們都已經有一個內部的資料然後後續我想我們會參照這樣的一個精神來協助一些共同珍珠中心願意的話能夠轉型成為一個廚藝的飼料廠"},{"start":4491.647,"end":4513.643,"text":"就是我們如果學其他國家做的我跟委員補充報告一下喔日本他的家戶廚餘全部不分類直接送焚化爐這不是你要學的啦我們要學的是我們要讓我們的廚餘走在利用所以我們會走生殖能源設施剛剛委員關心的部分另外黑水門或者是堆毀的在利用這個是我們要鼓勵的我們不希望他都用焚化爐來處理廚餘"},{"start":4514.984,"end":4524.691,"text":"現在大概有三個嘛我們現在學的一個日本這個所謂的飼料化你們也去考察嘛對不對當然有人家好的地方我們現在站的就是至少至少有一個我們飼料化集中儲養這樣不行嗎"},{"start":4526.533,"end":4552.756,"text":"我去查了沒有嘛這個可能要考慮那你剛剛一直在講了他的能源化他回料化這個老蔣我們都是可以學的就是人家成功我們盡快我們把這個做好那我們廚藝就減少嘛這是最根本的那我們時間再薄趕快做好不好那我剛剛提兩個都是非常急的喔怎麼樣讓廚藝可以運得出去我們要多幫忙讓這個團散業者問題也可以解決特別重要的學生營養餐不要上架好不好拜託一下好 謝謝"},{"start":4557.182,"end":4573.111,"text":"好 我們謝謝我們請楊昭偉來質詢謝謝主席 楊瓊瑜發言邀請部長跟次長兩位"},{"start":4586.638,"end":4615.594,"text":"同業部長還有環境部次長好 部長這一次我們中央災害應變中心為了防範非洲豬瘟所以我們宣布決議2027年全面禁止廚餘養豬並排除共同珍珠與環保飼料方案"},{"start":4616.894,"end":4622.537,"text":"如果說廚餘養豬的養豬戶要繼續那你必須要珍珠90度以上才能夠來養豬同時要裝設影像監視系統來定期的來做回報"},{"start":4633.804,"end":4648.437,"text":"這個政策允許緩衝期 也就是再使用一年所以本席首先要請教次長我們現在的推動是垃圾跟廚餘希望要分開 是不是"},{"start":4648.917,"end":4668.552,"text":"是 我們繼續分類繼續分類垃圾跟廚餘必須要分開因為我們希望廚餘能夠走在利用廚餘走在利用非常好廚餘要走在利用好 所以部長你們兩位在這裡我們實質解決問題因為我們大概有六成六成是有養這個養豬者那麼"},{"start":4671.734,"end":4686.721,"text":"收起來再利用去養豬尤其有說因為我們的Odiyama日本的最好吃這個是全世界非常有名而且大家肯定的那我們的政策已經既定我們首先來討論要怎麼樣去解決這個問題"},{"start":4690.163,"end":4702.51,"text":"以我台中市為例我們努力的來處理這個問題處理問題但是我們現在所面臨到的問題也就是台中市我們的住戶大樓將近有8000多棟"},{"start":4708.133,"end":4725.558,"text":"將近有8000多棟那這些8000多棟原本多數都有養豬戶來處理來協助那少部分由這個清除公司廢棄物公司來做處理但是現在我們的政策是"},{"start":4727.096,"end":4748.082,"text":"不能不能再收幾乎我們的推動是這個方向所以我們希望的也是垃圾跟廚餘要分開 剛剛次長已經有說了所以在這樣的一個情況之下民間的業者事業費去清除公司他的量人也沒有那麼多那我們這些大樓要怎麼辦"},{"start":4749.298,"end":4761.541,"text":"要怎麼辦我相信台中市有這個問題所有像新北台北這個桃園台南高雄只要有大樓的縣市絕對會有這個問題那我們怎麼處理呢現在各縣市政府想盡了一切辦法配合中央所以我要請教在這個專案"},{"start":4775.043,"end":4792.848,"text":"緩衝一年的期間針對於要求地方政府配合我們的政策將這些大樓所必須運送要怎麼運送如果你全部堆給我們所有的清潔隊他的量能不夠人不夠車不夠我們要怎麼處理請教農業部長"},{"start":4798.866,"end":4813.036,"text":"環境部來說明好嗎好環境部說明好是家戶垃圾包括大樓這個部分那大樓的部分過去是用清除業者來幫忙清理的這個部分它的垃圾我們要走政治主義的問題"},{"start":4814.229,"end":4837.272,"text":"我跟委員報告這裡面為什麼要這樣子分就是在地方政府垃圾水水灰徵收地方政府就收了水灰在台北市是水袋徵收是用垃圾專用袋來處理台中市為例他是水水灰徵收那如果是公寓大廈大樓的部分自己找雨清清理的他就不用水水灰繳清除處理費用給地方政府他是自己委託"},{"start":4838.57,"end":4856.942,"text":"清除業來清除的同樣的現在這些廚藝已經不能夠再養豬了他過去委託乙清的時候他的廚藝分開送到養豬場他那個幾乎沒有處理成本因為他把他集中了但是他量能不夠啊你家以前六成是給養豬戶去處理啊你來倒三缸嘛那現在量能不夠 請說明"},{"start":4858.723,"end":4875.3,"text":"他現在因為沒有養豬場願意去公寓大廈大樓去收這樣的廚餘了所以他已經就必須要把這樣的廚餘交給可以再利用的地點那目前我們在禁止廚餘養豬的期間是送到環保局指定地點不收處理費用不收處理費用"},{"start":4875.6,"end":4892.978,"text":"所以本市要請教是你說叫環保局指定地點來收那我現在環保局的量能都已經飽足了那我必須這是運送要一年的時間我必須我的車子我的人力都會增加那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":4894.139,"end":4916.948,"text":"我剛講的是在禁止處於養豬就是到今年年底還有15天這段時間是要送到環保局指定的地點不收處理費用但是明年1月開始有一年的緩衝期是可以繼續4月處於養豬的所以公益大廈他們如果能夠找到養豬業者以台中市來講他的養豬業者是繼續可以來養豬的"},{"start":4918.248,"end":4936.252,"text":"目前台中市沒有禁止廚餘養豬所以在這種情形之下有一年的緩衝期但這段時間環保局必須要做很多事情第一個他要加速他的再利用設施目前的堆肥或者是黑水門台中市那種規劃他的外埔的那個生廚餘的那個是處理生廚餘的部分嗎他會繼續他不是熟食啊 對"},{"start":4941.896,"end":4947.341,"text":"我更正一下部長公寓大廈也不能夠處理養豬在這種情況之下所以次長"},{"start":4948.792,"end":4973.424,"text":"我就讓你講你明明中央規定我們所有的大樓是不可以再去處理養豬你剛剛講的完全錯誤不是我更正一下你要更正你今天到立法院來你講的連你自己宣布的政策你通通錯誤你讓我們地方政府要依據哪些所以本席強烈要求台中市政府環保局非常清楚他知道該怎麼做"},{"start":4974.765,"end":5002.947,"text":"什麼台中市政府該要怎麼處理我現在本席就告訴你 我們的困難點你八千多棟的八千多棟的這個大樓它現在處於是不可以給養豬屋不可以 對呀所以剛剛跟你講的完全錯誤怎麼有這樣子的情況是你自己制定的政策耶你還完全錯誤我現在聽你的話聽你的政策 我碰到問題我光光這八千多棟我要去收"},{"start":5004.383,"end":5027.928,"text":"我要禁運我怎麼辦我的清潔隊有這樣的量人嗎民間業者有這樣的量人嗎你中央政府一直神功下來的政策我們全力配合但是你要告訴我我不夠的時候至少你要補人補錢補車子給我啊你通通都沒有還政策錯誤的離譜自己我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":5028.988,"end":5053.491,"text":"如果我們的公益大廈如果繼續他們不繳不繳水費去收垃圾的話那清潔隊員不需要服務他是要委託民間的已清繼續去幫他做過去的方式也是這樣市長我們是要解決問題如果要清潔隊收的話本期理性的告訴你問題中央政府告訴我們社區的家戶裡面"},{"start":5055.534,"end":5062.566,"text":"這個廚餘現在是不可以去給養豬戶的 對不對是啊 所以剛剛你承認錯誤了吧你承認錯誤 我們繼續討論那這樣子下來 要誰去收"},{"start":5067.864,"end":5083.842,"text":"清潔都要去收跟委員報告他如果有繳垃圾有水水會徵收的話市政府會幫忙服務他如果沒有水水會繳的話他委託已清清理請問 請過去的模式市政府要去協助本行一開始的提問我環保局的量能已經飽和"},{"start":5085.171,"end":5108.551,"text":"我要增加這些觀光運跟收這個是一個很大的問題是 理解對不對你這一年多不是只有你剛才講的這15天是一年多365天加15天欸是380天欸很辛苦 你要解決問題很辛苦因為政策是你們定的沒有理由一個政策下來讓地方不知所措"},{"start":5110.353,"end":5134.889,"text":"不是只有台中市政府的問題各縣市政府的社區大樓都有這個問題我跟 可不可以跟委員報告一下本期具體建議喔既然政策是你們訂的那地方非常的痛苦有這個問題每一個大樓都打電話來服務處說沒人收我們怎麼辦不能沒人收我們是一個政府所以你們去研議方案"},{"start":5136.149,"end":5157.154,"text":"針對於社區大樓的廚餘不能給養豬戶的來飼養的時候那我們配合政府的政策這些收跟運的量能你們要怎麼樣去協助地方政府啊我跟委員報告這個才是重點嘛我可以說台中市環保局的做法嗎可以跟委員報告一下嗎"},{"start":5158.234,"end":5173.184,"text":"我們要求各縣市政府他們必須要提供轄內可以協助產生源的量能包括以及清除業包括水回清除業市長你還真的是在雲中耶已經提出這個問題告訴你你首先第一個政策講錯第二個你認識到說是講錯了我們就要解決問題而不是你指令縣市政府縣市政府統統想盡了一些辦法"},{"start":5187.273,"end":5200.682,"text":"想辦法要怎麼樣配合你中央所以本席剛剛提出的我們一個結論針對於社區大樓的廚餘沒有辦法現在我們包括到明年底不能給養豬戶來協處的時候這一些的青跟雲"},{"start":5206.286,"end":5220.535,"text":"到底要怎麼處理請你們專案去研議專案去研議 告訴我們方向縣市政府你要怎麼樣人補助他 車補助他怎麼樣配合你中央政府來真正的落實這些問題嘛 對不對"},{"start":5222.618,"end":5243.208,"text":"我們會跟地方政府共同你什麼時候給方案給我們你怎麼補助車補助人你要給人家將近380天我們要怎麼做多久時間告訴本席你們的方案怎麼做跟委員報告現在有沒有要補現在有沒有要補有沒有要補我們所有的縣市政府你們必須要用的你的車子你的人"},{"start":5244.774,"end":5261.964,"text":"你的費用有沒有要補 加護產生的垃圾請問有沒有要補 到你目前為止你的政策有沒有要補我們看地方政府他因地制宜所採取的方式好 因地制宜啊 我們需要請問到目前的政策有沒有要補地方政府收垃圾費 他就必須要解決廢棄物處理企劃的問題"},{"start":5265.593,"end":5285.124,"text":"市長談到現在本強是誠意的希望你專案去研議當你的政策下來地方政府有困難的時候拜託拜託跟委員報告六都各自有因地制宜的做法其他做得好的我們希望台中可以學習請你解什麼台中可以學習台中的問題你要解決台中的問題台中市長要面對"},{"start":5290.552,"end":5298.684,"text":"市長今天我們是在解決民眾的問題不是政治話術請你好好的去研討請你去解決這個問題方案告訴本席那最後一個議題我要請農業部長"},{"start":5306.943,"end":5327.524,"text":"部長我們現在這個非洲中文解決了那麼現在依據我們的規定WOH就是說你在非洲中文最後一個案例完成之後清除後的三個月那麼可以來做申請像菲律賓我們在2023年1月份的時候拿到許可證那9月份開始"},{"start":5329.685,"end":5348.832,"text":"來運出 很高興但是我們已經完成了這些事情 請教如果依照WOH的這個申請的模式我們預計會在明年的2月份可以來做申請你會不會提出 像菲律賓來提出"},{"start":5350.252,"end":5365.259,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個部分我們必須向WOH在2月份我們會提出來然後提出來以後他們會做一些審查那審查如果同意讓我們恢復成非議區的話我們會立即再跟菲律賓去做申請"},{"start":5366.3,"end":5381.141,"text":"謝謝 第二個部分就是目前相關的這些這些生鮮的這些豬肉是不能外銷的但是加工加熱後的這些豬肉還是持續可以外銷的所以因為一開始本席就告訴你我們第一"},{"start":5382.402,"end":5405.736,"text":"發生的時候第一場我們在這裡也就針對所有肉品市場我們要怎麼樣保護他們均衡他們所以一個階段完我們繼續討論要怎麼樣讓他進進所以剛剛所說的我們預計在2月份的時候能夠給WOAH依照他的繳成流程相關規範我們來提出申請我們也希望競速"},{"start":5406.216,"end":5433.133,"text":"能够再拿到这个许可让我们的肉品市场可以继续往菲律宾这些来甚至全世界我们来做外销保护我们的肉品市场我们继续加油谢谢好 谢谢我们请郑天才委员请做巡谈"},{"start":5444.085,"end":5468.359,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請農業部部長跟環境部次長我們再請部長跟次長 謝謝兩位好如果從農業部農業部今天的書面報告的第二段"},{"start":5470.802,"end":5496.758,"text":"前面禁用廚餘養豬由中央立定前面禁止廚餘養豬之轉型最後期限最長不得超過一年也就是到明年115年的3月31日然後第三段就提到在轉型期間亦繼續使用廚餘之養豬場必須獲地方政府同意完成珍珠溫度級影像什麼什麼什麼"},{"start":5497.952,"end":5525.337,"text":"方得以115年1月1日起使用4月除役如果光從這個農業部的報告裡面就看不到今天的狀況報告的主題2027年前面禁止除役養豬從你的書面報告裡面是看不出來的我必須要另外去看"},{"start":5527.803,"end":5553.71,"text":"這個環境部的所謂的當然農業部要提到第一階段跟第二階段是另外一個事情這裡面就環境部的就所謂的第二階段為116年1月1日除以前面禁止養豬所以這個今天的專題報告的專案報告的標題到底有沒有正確"},{"start":5556.587,"end":5578.488,"text":"沒問題啊是116年前面禁止催養豬這沒問題啊好我的是建議以後這個書面報告要把它其實是一開始就要寫清楚了不是農業部那個環境部的我也是要看到第五頁我要看到第五頁才知道"},{"start":5579.802,"end":5606.539,"text":"看到第五页才知道原来是116年1月1日处以前面禁止养猪所以这个部分很清楚光这个就一般民众一般养猪业者就很困难了好 我先请教一下这个部长在过去在过去几年"},{"start":5608.194,"end":5631.78,"text":"哪些縣市是就是前面禁止廚藥養豬的哪些縣市如果有的話是雲林台東花蓮金門嘉義連江台北市基隆市跟澎湖縣好所以在台灣已經有這麼多的縣市"},{"start":5633.991,"end":5661.644,"text":"在前面禁止除以養豬所以其他的縣市要前面也要禁止的話那就去了解他們過去是怎麼去從開始要禁止的前置階段是怎麼去因應 怎麼去處理就參考他們的模式 做法然後去執行現在"},{"start":5664.545,"end":5676.126,"text":"要到116要全面禁止養豬這個過程有做參考嗎我跟委員報告您講得非常好就是其實"},{"start":5678.101,"end":5706.497,"text":"廚藝養豬再利用許可是由地方政府發的所以地方政府他可以隨時公告他禁止廚藝養豬那中央只是綠定最後的一個期限在這個期限之前地方政府會根據地方政府本身的客觀的一個環境來決定他怎麼去做相關的一個處理那個部長你說的也沒有錯但是因為這個政策"},{"start":5708.041,"end":5734.455,"text":"刚才讲的那几个县市他们个别的县市做了这样的决定他们在做这个决定的时候他们会考量他们的实际的量能或者是实际的这些环保单位这个相关的这些设施他们去决定他们的时间要多长然后怎么去辅导"},{"start":5735.253,"end":5763.846,"text":"那現在是因為是由中央來決定時間是決定所以這個農業部跟環境部就要共同的去跟這些縣市來討論有討論過嗎我想我們中央持續的在協助地方在執行不管是在廚藝的轉型或者是在環境部負責的這些清運的處理我們中央都一直在協助地方政府"},{"start":5764.775,"end":5788.041,"text":"但是我要跟委員說明的就是所有的廚餘本身的相關的執行面的部分都是地方政府在執行的沒錯這是事實 他們是執行對 我們中央會來協助就是說相關的像廚餘養豬的部分你剛才說的有一些縣市本身它沒有廚餘養豬那一個非常重要的是它本身就沒有廚餘養豬戶或者是非常少"},{"start":5788.841,"end":5813.258,"text":"包括這一次在防疫的期間裡面就有四五個縣市政府也宣布說他要禁止廚藝養豬但是有些縣市他講了這句話以後他可能後面可能看到廚藝養豬的實際的情況他又覺得說應該可以延一年所以這個部分我想我們持續再跟地方政府再溝通再協調這個我個人是支持啦支持這個禁止廚藝養豬啦"},{"start":5815.819,"end":5845.183,"text":"这个我小时候就是这个我们家在部落的家跟在山上这个农田的家那个都有养猪了我们都是用那个都是用植物啊这个都是用植物都是那个我们那个阿美族的话不方便在这边讲所以这个部分其实是"},{"start":5846.448,"end":5875.279,"text":"要朝這個方向那既然定了這個時間就要想辦法去協助這些地方政府來去無論是環保的跟農業的這個共同的來去推動好 這個環境部次長就請回座那接下來我還是要這個回到災期上次有跟這個部長有提到"},{"start":5878.882,"end":5903.209,"text":"這個這樣的一個因為現在已經從9月23號10月23號11月23號12月了兩個多月了所以一直存在這個部分然後你們又沒有好好的去說明這個鄉親也說誤解我們就一直罵縣政府我們去說明也沒有用我的意思是說"},{"start":5904.71,"end":5924.752,"text":"你們要對光復的鄉親不是只有針對這個不是只有針對這個所有錢人不是只有針對這個農田的所有錢人你要讓整個光復鄉瞭解說你們打算怎麼做"},{"start":5926.087,"end":5936.662,"text":"对不对 不然一直骂县政府就叫县长去挖就如同之前叫我去马太安西医院社府的八爹要我去挖一样所以这个部分"},{"start":5938.35,"end":5962.078,"text":"我也請你們提供這些資料你們也做了說明但是光我知道沒有用啊所以你們要讓光復的鄉民知道我跟委員報告其實我們開了五場的說明會我知道 你們那個說明會是針對對 而不是只針對農民所有的鄉親都有參加第二個部分我們也發了很多問卷也大概收了六成左右所以這個部分其實"},{"start":5963.838,"end":5981.932,"text":"农业部的立场我们一定会积极的协助那个说明会都是只有主要是这个佛祖阶那一带的乡亲没有没有我们五个地不是只有佛祖阶的不是你们在其他地方是谈别的我了解你们在谈在其他的"},{"start":5982.945,"end":5998.997,"text":"我們沒有別的事可以談 就是農地復原就是農地復原的事情而已啊部長 我們不是去爭論 我只是請你請你我沒有談別的 我就是談農地復原你要用書面 不用發什麼討論啊你用書面讓光復鄉的鄉親 書面就發給他們說你們打算這麼做 好不好我們也問了問卷啊 對"},{"start":6006.909,"end":6036.3,"text":"部長 我們很簡單就是你寫個你把這些書面的就發給不會發什麼錢嘛 好不好問卷是另外的你問卷不可能每一個不需要問每個鄉民嘛你問卷當然是針對農田所有人嘛對 農地所有錢人 是好不好了解 好謝謝接下來我們請鄭振前委員請做詢答"},{"start":6046.637,"end":6054.065,"text":"謝謝主席我想請向農業部陳俊記陳部長還有環境部的沈志修沈次長我們請陳部長跟沈次長 謝謝"},{"start":6060.425,"end":6079.279,"text":"部長好上禮拜在質詢這相關議題的時候你那時候是坐著回答今天可以站起來我覺得挺好的那我想說因為上個禮拜我有特別問到一個問題就是說我們禁衛處於這個政策的時候決策之前應該有跟環境部有跨部會的一個溝通過對不對"},{"start":6080.939,"end":6102.485,"text":"我們持續幾乎每個禮拜兩三次一直在溝通不管是在中央應變中心或是醫院部位的交流甚至於在行政院所有的政策擬定之前都有做溝通那因為我上禮拜我問了一個狀態就是說境外廚餘會產生很多的外部成本因為廚餘以前比方說去養豬那現在不能養豬之後的時候那可能會出現"},{"start":6104.345,"end":6120.642,"text":"轉嫁這些外部成本也許給了環境部也許給了地方政府那我那時候有請那個部長這邊去評估一下我們這外部成本到底有多高那你那時候是跟我講說你要再跟環境部這邊去討論那我不知道已經討論出結果出來了沒有"},{"start":6123.359,"end":6143.387,"text":"主要的成本就是他如果不再處於養豬的話他會走到的是再利用的管道嘛那再利用的部分就包括堆肥或者是黑水門或者是生殖能源再利用這是一個目標嘛我們就目標很好了我覺得循環經濟很重要那能夠把堆肥去做有效的利用都是好事"},{"start":6143.527,"end":6170.148,"text":"的事情 不過我覺得在這過程當中我們看到很多的情況跟我們當時政策在想的有點不一樣那我們在想怎麼樣把這個政策把它落實的更為完善 更為優化一點點那我這邊先給你們看一個照片這是讀者投書出來的一個情況這政策其實還沒有正式上路然後沿街都是廚餘桶"},{"start":6171.893,"end":6195.272,"text":"那這個是發生在屏東的事情可是我相信這事情不會只有一個地方政府發生應該很多地方都會發生這個狀態那我想請教一下你讓我講完一下那我想請教一下這個部分就是說因為當時環境部部長曾經提到說我們每天的廚餘有2115噸工噸那他提到說就是"},{"start":6200.984,"end":6206.444,"text":"每一頓的處理費用大概是多少錢 可不可以請次長這邊回答一下"},{"start":6207.383,"end":6232.12,"text":"跟委員報告一下處理跟清運兩個加起來要看你後端使用的是什麼方式去在利用價錢會不一樣那現在業者也看到了這樣的一個商機他們投入之後如果那個在利用量能多的時候自然而然那個價格會下降那麼以目前的現況來看清運費用大概是3000塊是合理的加上處理的費用要看你後端的在利用模式就會不同"},{"start":6233.221,"end":6260.609,"text":"所以大概會是在2500、3000左右所以總共2500、3000還是處理費用2500、3000清運費用是另外算清運3000塊處理可能是3000多或者是到5000所以才會出現一個5000到8000這包括清運加處理所以8000你覺得是清運加上處理的費用8000塊是夠的對不對所以這樣算起來的狀態的時候大概每一年的狀態大概會在五、六十億左右"},{"start":6261.129,"end":6280.195,"text":"所以你覺得這是商機嘛對不對那我在想說因為之前我們曾經有過一個政策其實在2021年的時候那時候也曾經有過一小段時間的時候禁衛廚餘所以那時候其實有很多的廠商他們提出要成立真主中心可是呢"},{"start":6281.175,"end":6305.98,"text":"屏東為例來說的時候 當時有三家要申請結果沒有一家做 問題在哪裡我跟委員報告一下 珍珠中心部分待會部長會做說明我先就您這張圖來做說明好嗎好 這張圖是因為那個業者 餐飲業者他自己要 要洗鹹菜啦 鹹菜那個桶子裡面不是廚餘 是鹹菜 要洗的鹹菜他為了怕人家停車停在他的門口外面的"},{"start":6306.941,"end":6320.436,"text":"所以你知道這張圖是怎麼來的是不是環保局已經跟警察局去做起雨地然後確定打開裡面是鹹菜不是廚餘所以說這個部分的時候坦白說是來自於一個媒體的資料"},{"start":6321.477,"end":6340.297,"text":"所以譬如說這個媒體又在做不實報導你的意思是這樣子已經更正了已經更正了屏東縣已經更正了OK那我想說如果是這情況的時候那我另外要問一下因為剛剛就是你有特別提到比方說垃圾處理都是水費徵收嘛對不對那廚藥的部分以前也被認為是"},{"start":6341.238,"end":6353.368,"text":"垃圾的一部分所以都一樣隨水費徵收那如果說現在的時候你提到說要讓以輕業者去做處理的時候那我們怎麼樣在垃圾當中的時候把廚餘跟一般的垃圾分開"},{"start":6356.069,"end":6381.639,"text":"跟委員報告 那個乙清如果他去公寓大廈服務的時候那個公寓大廈的垃圾就不是清潔隊收了嘛 對不對所以他就不用在水會裡面去喊清潔會因為不能收了 那乙清 那個公寓大廈自己就要付錢給乙清那以前的乙清是他把廚餘的部分分類出來或自收物分類出來的部分 他是沒有收錢的所以是整體來說 如果整棟大樓的時候"},{"start":6382.219,"end":6396.798,"text":"他就是選擇垃圾是自己處理讓以輕處理還是可是現在有些狀態是他只有廚餘廚餘喔他有些部分他只有處理廚餘垃圾其實還是市政府在做處理你知道這樣的情況嗎"},{"start":6398.16,"end":6417.75,"text":"像這種情形的時候如果你的垃圾還是給市政府處理的時候市政府就跟你說垃圾清理清除處理費用是是應該要繳這個費用的那你的廚餘如果過去是因為有在利用的用途包括你的資源回收物大廈也會產生資源回收物啊他如果交給慈濟或者是民間的一些在利用的系統"},{"start":6418.45,"end":6441.498,"text":"那個清潔隊也不會幫他收我想請教一下那個次長這邊因為你提到說我們處於後續的一個循環經濟的運用的時候那目前有多少的一個案子是在我們的計畫當中因為這邊全國到時候處於都要由這樣的方式去處理那我們現在有多少的量能夠處理多少的量能這邊有沒有做一個評估"},{"start":6441.738,"end":6465.062,"text":"跟委員報告我們估計就是在禁止廚藝養豬的時期大概產生的廚藝量是1700多公噸一天1700多公噸那我們目前國內的再利用的量能大概有1100公噸所以事實上是有缺口的所以這段時間為什麼會有混化處理的原因在這個地方是在這一年在未來的這一年當中因為看到落日的所以"},{"start":6465.598,"end":6477.626,"text":"民間的處理業者願意投入再處理 再利用這個部分所以堆毀會增加 黑水門會增加也開始會有縣市在設這個生殖能源廠所以在兩年之內這個量會平衡"},{"start":6478.188,"end":6506.926,"text":"OK 兩年之內會平衡嘛OK 我們希望整個的一個堆肥的那個廚藝的一個處理其實能夠像你剛剛講到包括堆肥 包括黑水蒙包括我們的循環發電等等的狀態那我們希望真的能夠讓讓那個廚藝能夠真正發揮它給循環經濟當中我想這是一個我們也支持就是禁衛廚藝這樣的一個政策可是要怎麼把它做得更完善我覺得很重要不要變成說"},{"start":6508.808,"end":6520.037,"text":"當時配合我們農業部政策去做珍珠中心的養豬戶他們現在可能輸了然後可能變成是外部成本落到地方政府他們也輸然後農業部這邊又要給那個養豬戶他們那個"},{"start":6524.781,"end":6545.877,"text":"就是除以轉為一般飼料的補助金額我們希望由這樣的狀態不要變成三輸不要變成三輸而是大家都贏因為整個新政策讓大家都贏那我最後這邊我想問一下部長一件事情就是最近有一個狀態是提到了狂犬病"},{"start":6546.967,"end":6570.056,"text":"台灣其實很久沒有狂犬病那我想知道一下我們現在整個的狂犬病的一個防疫工作情況怎麼樣為什麼我會特別提到這個狀態因為之前我們看到所有狂犬病的狀態大家都在大安溪以南那麼最近開始出現到苗栗這邊有一些相關的案例當然不是人 可是是哺乳類動物"},{"start":6571.537,"end":6578.329,"text":"那我們要怎麼樣去控制狂犬病病毒的擴散可不可以請部長做一個簡單的回應"},{"start":6579.659,"end":6602.753,"text":"我跟委員報告現在目前狂犬病狗病沒有得到狂犬病這個必須要先聲明的現在目前狂犬病的病毒是感染在幼歡就是這些幼歡那現在擔心的是狗去捕捉了幼歡而感染的部分所以在這裡我想我們第一個部分會針對這些比較靠近山區的這個部分去做家長宣導"},{"start":6603.473,"end":6618.394,"text":"就是這些狗特別是在流浪犬的部分我們也會加強這些就是管理的部分家犬的部分我們都希望牠能夠就是出門的時候第一個打疫苗是一個最重要的你如果打疫苗的時候萬一"},{"start":6619.295,"end":6646.672,"text":"狗跟那個右彎有接觸的話它也不會被傳染到也不會擴散所以疫苗是一個非常重要的第二個就是管理的部分特別在山區的部分我們會加強相關的一個管理OK 因為我們希望說因為從1958年之後台灣其實就沒有狂犬病死亡的一個案例那我們希望這事情不要被捲土重來所以我們希望針對這部分能夠做一個比較好的一個管控好不好OK謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":6651.874,"end":6669.266,"text":"接下來我們請邱志偉委員請做詢答謝謝主席 是不是請農業部陳部長好 我們再請陳部長喂"},{"start":6676.653,"end":6705.325,"text":"部長 第一個問題請教您您知道日本一年入境的人數是多少人我告訴你 4000萬台灣一年入境的人數大概多少人我告訴你 800萬所以入境日本的人數是台灣的5倍那他們有很多機場 有很多港口他們所有的港口和機場 針對入境旅客"},{"start":6706.761,"end":6728.572,"text":"有沒有針對手提行李或者針對這個非洲豬瘟疫區來源國有做過任何手提行李的安檢我所瞭解是沒有沒有嘛陸軍人口是五倍那我們他們為什麼沒有最主要是我們的廚藝有直接進到我們的豬的衛生系統日本是經過"},{"start":6730.017,"end":6752.859,"text":"那個飼料化以後再進到裡面所以本身的這些風險會比較低你看 路徑是我們五倍而且他們沒有路徑的這個鎖立性的安檢所以代表他們做法正確的我們應該日本學習上個月我們組個團嗎 是貴部也有派同仁去環境部也派同仁去三個半小時深入討論"},{"start":6754.415,"end":6768.074,"text":"還有跟這個相關學者把整個日本的這個處理處理的系統做了很完整的介紹為全程參與為提出很多的問題我想農業部同仁回來有沒有跟您報告有"},{"start":6769.198,"end":6797.374,"text":"我們是不是就把日本那一套建立起來我跟你講我們現在現在就要參考日本的那個eco feed的一個辦法然後去做這個廚餘的飼料化的一個相關的規劃要有一個專責單位去推動對要有一個專案小組去推動把日本那一套建立起來啊那我們就可以高枕無疑為什麼因為不可能透過廚餘產生病菌然後變成這個非洲豬瘟的感染是第一個他們加護廚餘的減量"},{"start":6800.287,"end":6815.659,"text":"他們自己在這個所謂在烹煮食物的時候他們就量度為初了就是說你要吃多少他們就煮多少所以很少食物的浪費另外他們有一些加護廚餘的這個處理機或者乾燥機的補助大碗嗎 烏蛙"},{"start":6820.276,"end":6847.876,"text":"有些縣市比方說以前在南投在雲林在屏東針對家戶廚餘處理機你把它乾燥化把廚餘把它這個去水化它就變成一般廢棄物它就可以進焚化爐結果不會損害焚化爐對不對所以現在我有提案希望你們跟環境部在你們這個所謂應變小組裡面能夠編列預算就像這個經濟部有個節能措施"},{"start":6849.393,"end":6874.534,"text":"節煙能設備的補助比如說節煙能冷氣或冰箱的補助每年度都編列10億還是20億來汰換節煙能設備來增購節煙能設備以來我們是不是可以用一定的補助來提高國人在家戶使用廚餘處理機的意願讓每個家戶的廚餘量可以減少"},{"start":6876.658,"end":6899.724,"text":"這個部長您的看法是第一個我跟委員報告就是台灣的那個料理的習慣跟日本是不一樣的那我們現在跟環境部在共同推這種就是吃多少煮多少的這個部分就是等於我們的廚藝的減量這是非常重要的那第二個您剛才說的就是說廚藝機的部分其實在先前也曾經跟環境部做一些討論"},{"start":6900.684,"end":6919.815,"text":"那後來我們跟一些家庭在討論的過程中就算做了這些變成堆肥以後那臺灣本身不見得是堆肥喔它處理完它變一般的廢棄物喔對 那相對的在這個過程中因為我們臺灣的也許等一下環境部可以補充就是我們的廚餘的"},{"start":6921.616,"end":6942.35,"text":"我們是強調再利用那日本的家務廚餘是直接進到焚化爐去的這兩個的那個再利用的邏輯是不一樣的部分所以沒有辦法說百分之百不照他們沒有再利用那我們再利用的這個主要的目的是什麼我想整個廚餘再利用的部分只是去化廚餘嘛 對不對"},{"start":6943.564,"end":6965.096,"text":"你是去化廚餘嘛去化廚餘你當作一般世界飛機物處理也是一種處理方式不過再利用利用的好的話其實它本身就是一個剩餘之源它可以真正的產生那個價值它不是為了去化而去化這樣子你要再利用啊要有科學的方式是也有安全的方式低風險的方式對就所謂Eco-feed是"},{"start":6966.056,"end":6977.221,"text":"所以你家務的部分沒有那事業非企務的部分呢不用包括這個團散或者這個他們餐廳或者是相關的這個團體裡面他們有明確的整個流程"},{"start":6978.103,"end":6997.948,"text":"把這個收集起來然後在專用的這個特殊的這個廠商裡面去做分區分區之後做Ecofit對 這個就是我們的努力的目標不是說兩三年這幾年才有的他們已經行之二十幾年了所以他們高枕無憂他們不需要派那麼多人力在邊境做這個手提行李的檢查"},{"start":6999.887,"end":7027.207,"text":"所以把日本這一套建立起來要多久時間我想我們現在已經開始在做規劃那我們初步是希望說我們先用一個其中的共同珍珠中心去把它做轉型變成一個只收事業廚餘或其他的食品下腳料然後變成這種eco-feed這樣的一個產品那這個部分我想我們已經在做了共同珍珠中心那你處理事業廚餘對不對"},{"start":7029.397,"end":7038.538,"text":"还有一些食品的下饺料的部分还有一些群内的下饺料果菜公司那种好 你说事业属于比方说这个夜市的小吃单算不算事业属于"},{"start":7040.455,"end":7061.596,"text":"我第一個部分我想後續的部分我想我們會請續產試驗所還有我們也跟台肥做溝通那台肥也很樂意進場來共同努力這個目標所以你要讓大家知道什麼叫事業處理定義是什麼要很明確這個我想環境部有非常明確的一個定義讓大家都了解了解那家戶處理怎麼處理事業處理怎麼處理"},{"start":7064.025,"end":7079.184,"text":"二分法家戶廚餘你要減量你可以用所謂的這個廚餘處理機你可以透過補助提高這個家戶的意願每一家戶按照他的這個食物的用量有不同容量的廚餘處理機"},{"start":7080.726,"end":7108.527,"text":"把廚藝減量那事業廚藝的部分你怎麼樣把它有效的做集合然後去處理然後EcofitEcofit還比現在的飼料還更便宜對不對對也節省養豬戶的飼料成本這是很好的做法我一樣說到現在好像我們已經慢了日本二十幾年"},{"start":7109.332,"end":7130.381,"text":"那我再請教你最後一個問題整個系統建立起來大概要多久如果變成類似日本的ECOFIT我想至少要三年兩年到三年的期間那如果說利用現有的共同政治中心的話應該兩年應該可以做得起來政治中心是一個過渡性的方案你最後還是要學日本那一套對"},{"start":7132.302,"end":7158.568,"text":"日本如果他沒有專利授權的話應該可以馬上就可以把這個整個制度引進過來嗎對 他有現有的設備是可以做引進的你如果沒有什麼專利什麼的不需要授權你可以專利 你可以引進馬上把這個制度把它建立起來你三年之內我們就不怕有什麼非洲豬瘟的問題了因為變成一個安全的這個Eco fit而且減少成本最重要"},{"start":7160.134,"end":7185.072,"text":"而且我們需要每個旅客入境的時候都要有鎖定行李的安檢這也是會增加一些旅客的不便對 如果禁止廚藝養豬這個政策後續落實的時候那相關的這些邊境的壓力就會變小因為最主要就是含肉製品如果進到廚藝系統會造成一些問題所以這也是我們共同努力的目標所以這個"},{"start":7187.816,"end":7214.324,"text":"日本的做法值得我們借鏡我已經很具體的提供你這些做法而且這些相關的程序那天是三個承辦科的科長農林水産省花很長時間做很詳細的介紹這個雖然是日文的資料我想你們一定有辦法變消化吸收變成我們我們已經成立一個專案小組現在在做這樣的所以您說是三年三年就把日本那一套建立起來"},{"start":7215.731,"end":7235.097,"text":"包括那個廠最主要是建廠比較慢技術的導入比較快建廠我覺得你只要有一個專業小組推動的話建廠也不是太大困難三年已經很寬裕了我希望說就按照您所說的三年就把日本那一套全部引進那我們有Ecofit然後加護廚也減少"},{"start":7237.082,"end":7263.089,"text":"不過最重要就是我們也會在這段時間去了解這個因為你變成ecofeed以後市場也要接受所以這樣的一個飼料配方也要讓我們的養豬戶能夠習慣跟使用我想這個也是要共同去做的這個時候就開始去做調查對我們現在已經在做這個部分日本也有很多養豬戶啊日本也有很多養豬戶他們可以用ecofeed可以接受代表說台灣應當也可以接受所以這個時間你們應該去做一些survey"},{"start":7264.136,"end":7284.884,"text":"會 我們會來做像日本大概只有6%在用這個就三年時間我們就要把邊境把這個所有的這個廚藝的問題全部徹底解決透過減量 加護理減量透過世界廚藝的這個ECOFIT你有把握嗎 三年時間我覺得三年應該可以做得到就跟日本完全一樣"},{"start":7286.058,"end":7313.346,"text":"沒有 日本的沒有辦法我們可以參照日本這樣的Eco-free的部分所以我們把我們的廚藝的部分能夠再利用包括現在的生食能對不對因為我們台灣的廚藝再利用跟日本的系統是不一樣的那你贊不贊成跟環境部共同編列預算來補助每一家戶去購買這個所謂家戶的補助我覺得這個還要內部討論因為這個部分可能有不同的看法所以我們還會再跟環境部一起討論環境部要講一下環境部講一下"},{"start":7314.622,"end":7335.618,"text":"委員你講到那個廚餘的處理機的部分那廚餘的產生源將來如果不能夠把廚餘再養豬的時候他一定會衍生成本出來但是他在這個處理的過程當中他把80%的水分把它去掉了他的垃圾需要處理的那個廚餘量就被乾燥以後減量很多他省下了處理的費用"},{"start":7336.098,"end":7358.225,"text":"那個對他來講購買這個處理處理機就已經是划算了但現在有些家務主動的自主性的去買處理機我們都樂觀其成那至於要不要每個家務去補這個真的需要再評估評估什麼因為你在處理的過程當中你已經把水分乾燥你就減量了你就省下了將來處理的處理費用了"},{"start":7360.64,"end":7380.195,"text":"對啊 那你就可以幫一般的就是我們的一個選擇啦但是要不要用政府的方式去補助這可以再評估啦你要提供一些誘因啦我覺得你要減量就是政府要像節能的這個節能家電補助也是政府編定預算去補助啊可是他沒有很大的這個動力來把這個家電變成節能的"},{"start":7382.168,"end":7402.285,"text":"因為你換了節電加電 你這當然就減少能源嘛會節電嘛那你這個給它補助之後 你的垃圾也就減量了你的廚藥就減量了是不是 我覺得應該可以跨部會環境部跟農業部應該一起研究我希望這個應該政府要編定預算來鼓勵媒家戶能夠有自己的這個廚藥處理機謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":7410.834,"end":7429.309,"text":"接下來我們請張家俊委員請做詢答 謝謝主席我想請這個陳部長還有次長請兩位 謝謝沈次長"},{"start":7432.199,"end":7434.204,"text":"部長 我想要再一次跟您確認說從什麼時候開始會全面禁止廚餘養豬116年1月1號"},{"start":7441.169,"end":7446.512,"text":"1月1號我必須在這裡讚許你說從今年10月開始爆發之後我們不斷的向您呼籲一定要全面禁止出於養豬也很感謝你從善如流能夠尊重然後聽取養豬戶的建議來協助保護養豬產業我想整個養豬產業聽到這件事情也非常的高興我也想接下來請問一下沈次長"},{"start":7471.167,"end":7495.23,"text":"那現在目前有關於廚餘去化目前台灣有哪些廚餘去化的方式呢是目前的處理的方式就是走再利用的方式是我們最鼓勵的那目前有再利用的方式包括傳統的或快速的堆回或者是黑水門的再利用或者是生殖能源的熱能的一個再利用那哪一種是兩位最看好的呢"},{"start":7496.551,"end":7525.401,"text":"最快可以在這一年當中趕快把這個缺口補上的呢因為生殖能源廠的設置大概需要二到三年那目前有三個縣市往這個方向在規劃已經設的就是有兩個市一個是桃園一個是台中那未來會有南投以及台南跟高雄會加入生殖能源的投入所以未來的廚餘去化他們會等於是處理大部分嗎他們能夠處理多少呢"},{"start":7526.641,"end":7551.607,"text":"要看這個市場的趨勢像現在走養豬場是因為它的成本最低所以現在有六成的廚餘都跑到養豬場但基於風險的管控我們落日就一年了嘛那以後就禁止廚餘養豬了嘛所以再利用設施就會上來那這樣子我想要請問一下那個你有準備要補助這些縣市政府蓋這些處理的"},{"start":7552.507,"end":7570.437,"text":"除於多元的在利用的跟委員報告在利用設施將來會收到處理的費用不管堆毀也好或者是黑水門處理也好產生源使用者附會他就必須要跟處理垃圾位處理一樣的方式目前給回收跟清除處理業者來處理處理"},{"start":7571.878,"end":7597.084,"text":"我舉一個例子啊我舉一個例子因為你們要處理的不只是你說他會賺錢等等但是呢前端你要先把它去化你才能夠你才能夠解決垃圾問題這是一個國家級的問題喔也絕對不是農業部或你環境部的問題這是一個很全面的問題我就先舉例假設蓋一座標準的廚餘資源化處理廠不管你用什麼方式"},{"start":7598.244,"end":7614.76,"text":"假設是2億或者5億那要落實一縣市一處理廠全台灣23個縣市全部蓋好那大概頂多啦如果抓5億下去算的話頂多100億那次長花100億可以解決全台灣的廚餘問題同時守護"},{"start":7619.438,"end":7630.596,"text":"兩千多億的這個養豬產業鏈這筆投資對於國家來說算不算是划算呢 跟委員報告現在已經存在的量大概就有一千一百多噸"},{"start":7631.892,"end":7648.579,"text":"的一個再利用量包括民間的堆毀廠不管是傳統的或快速堆毀花銷那政府其實民間可以做的事情我們樂見民間來投資來興建所以你沒有打算鼓勵他們他們已經在做了他自然而然就會有有這樣的一個合理的利潤"},{"start":7650.307,"end":7669.195,"text":"那我再講一下就是這個末端處理啊就剛剛我看到其他委員也在問這也是我相當關心的因為在雲林縣我們在111年就率全國率先全國推動家用廚餘機的補助計畫那我不曉得說次長有沒有看到成效呢"},{"start":7669.795,"end":7680.597,"text":"跟委員報告雲林它禁止廚餘養豬但它主要的廚餘都送到南亞南亞再利用而且我必須要講你既然講了這個南亞再利用這個其實數據會說話南亞廠每天處理60公噸的這個廚餘那到現在已經處理了56000公噸的廚餘變成了32萬包的有機肥料叫雲蓋肥這也是農業部認證的"},{"start":7696.801,"end":7709.745,"text":"那這就是大家整天掛在嘴邊的循環經濟最好的模式啊所以也希望說環境部包括農業部大家應該把這個模式可以鼓勵其他縣市假設他們有廚餘去化問題的鼓勵他們趕快來執行嘛那我講的這個家用廚餘機的補助計畫我也希望說環境部主要是環境部來因為我覺得如果這筆錢叫農業部來出這沒意思嘛"},{"start":7726.91,"end":7754.83,"text":"農業部他是要顧好養豬業啊除離去化是你環境部的問題應該是說除於量是可以減少的那這個部分對於後端不管是焚化爐燃燒等等都很有幫助甚至還可以減少這個垃圾車的一些麻煩的工作那為什麼不把它納入你現在不是有一個什麼淨零綠生活計畫嗎能不能把除於居補助納入這個環境部的計畫之中呢"},{"start":7755.903,"end":7780.008,"text":"鹽土減量是一個好的方法那我們會來鼓勵啦但是因為垃圾的處理費用是由地方政府所以你的意思就是說我們環境部一毛都不出我今天就是來這裡說說話然後一毛不拔沒有打算要關心這個廚餘去化的問題大型的處理廠你也沒有打算補助小型的廚餘機你也沒有打算補助你今天就是來湊人數嗎"},{"start":7783.516,"end":7811.669,"text":"當然不是啊 是嗎不是湊人數 是委員邀請我們來我們來這邊專案報告的所以你們今天來專案報告就是說這個廚餘再利用跟你們環境部沒什麼關係不是 小錢也不花 大錢也不花到底你們是在做什麼好 沒關係 你先繼續在旁邊那個部長 我想要請問一下大痞鄉雲林大痞鄉有一個別稱是什麼 您知道嗎"},{"start":7813.837,"end":7836.079,"text":"他的特色農產品是什麼你知道嗎?鹹菜對 非常準確就是台灣菜有一道菜叫做鹹菜那裡面放的就是我們大脾香這個鹹菜也是我們台灣鹹菜的故鄉那你知道全台灣有多少酸菜的生產量是在大脾製造嗎?"},{"start":7837.622,"end":7865.27,"text":"我覺得自打應該六七成以上是大概有八成有18萬噸的這個產量那您知道每年大概有多少產值嗎這個我沒有去統計我不瞭解大概是將近5億4.8億元那不管是產值還是產量雲林縣大坪鄉都被稱為是台灣酸菜的故鄉可以說是當之無愧那我想要請問部長是不是能夠在"},{"start":7866.61,"end":7892.052,"text":"我們大闢鄉做一個酸菜專區因為呢它的這個製作的過程我想您應該也相當了解就是要加鹽啊然後要脫水啊用重物壓出這個多餘的水分那如果不把它統一處理這個高鹽分的水的話可能會造成農地演化所以鄉公所在2003年就成立了這個專區但是呢"},{"start":7894.995,"end":7903.609,"text":"希望農業部能夠支持他們這個整個產業的永續發展能夠同意他們讓這些汝水再利用"},{"start":7905.387,"end":7924.751,"text":"我跟我們報告因為檢查這些他炸出來的東西因為高鹽分的部分那您剛才講的專區其實專區不是重點是怎麼樣把這些剩炸出來的這些水做有效的再利用的部分因為他本身如果不好處理的話他進到農田是一定是污染農田的部分"},{"start":7925.511,"end":7938.856,"text":"所以這個部分其實我在幾年前就一直蠻關心這個議題然後看看有沒有辦法找到一些能夠將這個鹽分跟水分脫離的這個基礎沒錯 這是正確的方向所以台大的研究團隊就提出申請了"},{"start":7941.397,"end":7960.548,"text":"提出申請然後之前農業部都推給環境部今天環境部也在這裡但環境部他已經回文說申請是法性跟行政程序等細節應該洽農業部釐清但是農業部到目前沒有辦法回應台大團隊跟公所提出的申請我也希望說部長"},{"start":7961.428,"end":7968.452,"text":"今天既然在這裡您也支持說要這個大坪的酸菜專區然後要支持這個產業的話是不是能夠請農業部儘速的輔導他們趕快讓他可以上路否則這個台大的這個團隊跟公所"},{"start":7980.999,"end":7988.085,"text":"遲遲沒有得到回應然後呢而且我看到監察院也早在104年的調查報告裡面就寫說地方長年無法處理中央農政主管機關沒有給予及時跟必要的協助是不當的要求你們要研擬喔如何協助他們如何補助他們如何擴充處理設備強化減量跟再利用那部長我是不是可以拜託您喔"},{"start":8009.082,"end":8026.491,"text":"支持這個大品香酸菜永續經營的這個想法跟處理的方式呢不過我跟委員報告我們先處理這個技術面怎麼樣把這些酸菜水能夠經過一些技術把它做成鹽分分離這個如果處理好了以後現在"},{"start":8027.111,"end":8048.822,"text":"台大跟公所他們有申請學術個案的研究那他已經有非常好的一個成效所以他們送案子進去但是你們都一直沒有給他回應那拜託部長了解可以嗎我來親自了解以後然後看看那個技術面是可不可以做一些移轉那技術如果可行然後可以移轉的話後面就比較好辦啦"},{"start":8049.918,"end":8064.816,"text":"是 所以我在這裡拜託部長包括環境部我們不要再推來推去我們盡速的讓它落實下來讓大坪成為一個台灣酸菜的故鄉之外也可以環境永續經營 謝謝"},{"start":8067.54,"end":8080.533,"text":"好 謝謝這是一個非常好公部門跟學術部門跟產業一起結盟怎麼樣能夠計轉所以也謝謝部長要跟張家俊委員繼續專案來討論 謝謝接下來我們請呂玉玲委員請做詢答"},{"start":8093.783,"end":8117.828,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳部長跟我們環境部的長賜我們再請兩位 謝謝部長 長賜為了防範非洲豬瘟的疫情再入侵我們農業部在12月4號就已經宣布我們的廚藝逐步的退場尤其是我們家庭的這個廚藝部分"},{"start":8120.97,"end":8130.965,"text":"明年開始就已經停止收了那2027年的話我們的失業廚餘會全面的禁止但是這個整個我們的廚餘的狀況的話會"},{"start":8133.564,"end":8139.528,"text":"牽動著我們整個養豬戶產業的結構還有考驗著我們國內廚餘的這個去化的量能那尤其是以事業廚餘來講的話那你們知道嘛他們的那廚餘現在我們不收的話他們一桶現在一桶的話他們大概要負擔的這個清運費大概是50塊到100塊未來的話那清運費可能會1500到2000那這只是清運而已像我們常識講的如果送去"},{"start":8161.621,"end":8178.537,"text":"生殖中心或者堆肥或者是这个黑水盲这个部分的处理的话可能又增加更多的费用那所以现在整个我们的逐一的处理的这个量能我们不能完全依靠说"},{"start":8180.615,"end":8195.491,"text":"业者来未来会增加这些设备而应该以我们公部门自己就要在建制好是所有处理这个生殖中心或者是说我们的去化堆肥发电的这些设备来处理这个整合厨艺是不是"},{"start":8196.592,"end":8214.577,"text":"那我先请问一下这个长测那你刚刚一直讲的你都知道这些都是衍生出来的费用但是你又说产业他们自己看到商机自己会来设置这个厂争取这个生意但是你要知道"},{"start":8215.68,"end":8240.363,"text":"未來最後他們的商機是都跟我們業者也就是說我們事業廚藝的部分或者是餐廳部分他就會跟他們收費收費的話這些費用未來就會衍生到我們消費者的身上是不是所以這個要你注意到的最末端的還是消費者最末端的還是消費者所以我們現在如果沒有收事業廚藝的話"},{"start":8241.764,"end":8258.366,"text":"未來他們這清運公司業者也好或者是說他們處理中心也好未來這些費用都是跟事業這個餐廳的這部分來收取對不對跟委員報告一下以桃園為例桃園目前的處理主要是進到我們的"},{"start":8259.207,"end":8281.259,"text":"生殖中心它是發電的是 那有一天可以處理135噸嘛那另外民間有一個廠像虹橋它過去是跟市政府這邊有合約大概是有20噸左右可是它因為這段時間禁止處理養豬它每天已經收到100噸了這個就是我所謂的當你政策落日明確的時候業者自然而然他會提升他的注意量"},{"start":8282.219,"end":8310.06,"text":"我们这些设备第一个我们民间的设备跟我们公家部门的设备都建制完成这是我们要准备的才能够让我们的厨余去去化对不对但是未来会衍生的事业厨余餐厅等等这些单位他们的成本问题这些成本的话未来就会到我们消费端这边来处理未来就物价又高涨了跟委员报告因为我们为了能够继续吃到台湾猪啊"},{"start":8310.64,"end":8326.248,"text":"是基於風險考量所以做了這樣的一個政策拍板也經過大家討論的結果做成這樣的一個決定之後所以環境部不要一直推責任不是推責任 自然而然處於自然而然處於就必須要採取其他的方式處理所以你們今年的補助"},{"start":8327.449,"end":8356.432,"text":"厨艺因为我们现在禁止收到年底对不对12月底嘛所以你们要补助各地方政府明年的话缓冲期的话还有一年可以去收厨艺他们就会再去负担去收厨艺但是2027年之后就没有了这未来我们要考虑的还有养猪产业还有我们整个生殖还有我们的整个事业餐厅整个循环链里面我们都要考虑进去才能够让我们这个部分能够大家都不要面临着未来"},{"start":8356.912,"end":8385.1,"text":"物價又高漲還是我們哪個缺口沒有處理好的話衍生出未來很多不好的情形發生好不好那接下來我們就請問一下部長那尤其是我們特別講到我們廚餘現在的總量量的話本來是有2115公噸的廚餘其中我們的可以處理的廚餘部分有1324剩下的部分的話791都是做我們的堆肥各方面的那未來的話你們說你們處理的"},{"start":8387.48,"end":8409.836,"text":"建置一些生殖中心也好或者民間處理的一些最終處理廠也好這些未來我們可以處理到2529噸就是看到我們前面的數字的話等於增加一倍跟我們現有的生殖中心或者堆肥中心這個我們有沒有具體的我們要如何增加"},{"start":8412.444,"end":8439.111,"text":"有環境部來說明那這個量能的增加是我們現在選項剛有講的民間會有所謂的堆灰廠或者是這一個黑水門會繼續投入這個產業那政府這邊會規劃大型的生殖能的設施目前已經有南投台南跟高雄現在我說會增加一倍的量是我們要處理增加一倍的量是預估的嘛那我們要增加的這些設施具體的設施呢"},{"start":8440.171,"end":8466.79,"text":"這些設施都是由地方政府他們評估他們的期程環境部還是講說是地方政府提出來的設施謝謝那我就是希望地方政府要做的事情我們環境部也應該給予補助讓他們來做你不要只有督促你只做到督促沒有去輔導他們去執行去建置這些場設才來徹底的解決我們最終處理出獄的問題好不好"},{"start":8467.23,"end":8471.692,"text":"那接下來請我們部長 那我講到這邊的話我們最大宗的廚餘都是供應給我們的黑豬的養豬戶來使用那現在的話 未來的話 廚餘如果在2027年全面禁用的話黑豬的養豬戶負擔最沉重的 衝擊最大的就是我們的黑豬的養豬戶"},{"start":8489.158,"end":8504.444,"text":"因為黑豬的話他比白豬的話飼養的週期是12個月到15個月白豬只要6個月那現在的話如果沒有廚藥的話未來口感是不是會比較差或者是說成本提高這問題這個還有他們的週期養豬的週期問題我們部長這邊有沒有進一步的給我們黑豬養豬戶的一個信心喊話"},{"start":8511.609,"end":8532.965,"text":"謝謝委員事實上我們以農業部的立場我們一定會讓我們的黑豬產業永續的在台灣這邊土地持續的這樣進行下去但是一個蠻重要的就是過去用廚餘的養豬的方式農民比較沒有習慣用飼料的部分所以我們會成立一個輔導團隊然後我們已經有開發了一些"},{"start":8533.866,"end":8554.025,"text":"就是黑豬專用的這些飼料這些飼料成本比一般的飼料還便宜那我們希望說這個階段先讓他們用這樣的一個飼料的配方第二個部分我們會再去加速這些飼料配方的一個改善那第三個部分比較中長期的部分就是說我們的黑豬品種不一定一定要養到15個月啦"},{"start":8554.865,"end":8575.11,"text":"然后我们是不是可以有12个月就12到15一个是土黑猪一个是大黑猪大黑猪大概一年土黑猪大概13到15个月就还是有那个周期对我们希望说能够比较缩短因为用饲料化的一个处理它的生育周期应该是可以缩短的所以这个部分我们尽量的让它的利润能够确保"},{"start":8575.79,"end":8599.383,"text":"對 利潤確保是成本反應的問題尤其是部長我們的續產試驗所有研發出來專門給黑豬吃的飼料這個飼料的話可是很昂貴啊你要他轉型你就要輔導他不要讓他無法生存影響他的生計未來看不到黑豬這是不好的啦所以他們飼料這麼昂貴他們的飼料大概每頭豬要3000元左右對不對"},{"start":8601.179,"end":8610.524,"text":"我們的那個敘事所的這些飼料的部分大概比外面的飼料應該是便宜將近差不多一半吧你是說一千五而已嗎 對"},{"start":8611.991,"end":8619.392,"text":"不是3000是1500一頭飼料跟一般的飼料比我請我們續展事業所所長我針對黑豬的黑豬的因為你們研發出來這個飼料很關鍵你說如果是你們這個專門黑豬吃的飼料的話然後一般的大黑豬的話可以縮短為9個月而已那土黑豬的話可以縮短到13.5個月這對我們黑豬產業的話是有幫忙的但是飼料時很昂貴那部長說可以減少一半不是3000元一頭不是3000元是1500嗎"},{"start":8643.078,"end":8667.618,"text":"大概減少每公斤大概減少一到兩元左右一到什麼飼料的成本跟一般的飼料一到兩元飼料成本一頭豬可以省多少錢我們一公斤的飼料大概是11塊到12塊左右以一頭豬的計算方式一頭豬的生產成本大概是4000多塊左右"},{"start":8668.559,"end":8684.751,"text":"是啊 所以還是很昂貴啦所以我希望說在這部分我們除以去化之後全面禁止之後可不可以針對黑豬這個部分我們的飼料給予補助讓他們用常態性的補助給他們不要說有限定一年而已好不好"},{"start":8686.182,"end":8704.697,"text":"我想以農業部立場我們希望他用飼料然後飼料的部分我們去確保他的利潤就是可以減少他的成本沒有 我想我們沒有辦法在這邊承諾說一直持續補下去我覺得產業要進步我們會想辦法跟黑豬產業一起努力讓他的利潤能夠做確保"},{"start":8705.137,"end":8732.257,"text":"讓他的成本降低我們剛剛已經前面講了很多飼養期他比白豬多了一倍的時間養一頭黑豬可以養兩頭白豬他成本就已經很高了何況他現在如果用你專門為黑豬準備的飼料又比白豬的飼料貴了一倍以上所以這個我們可以對飼料的補助我們可以給他們常態性的話降低他們的成本降低他們的整個產業才能永續生存發展好不好"},{"start":8733.292,"end":8754.045,"text":"我想我們會努力的跟產業去做這樣的一個動作保障他們永續的發展我們一定讓這個產業一定永續發展還有另外一個問題部長就是我們廚藝在分類上面有分動物型的肺渣跟我們植物型的肺渣那部長有說過因為這個植物型的肺渣"},{"start":8754.625,"end":8774.354,"text":"不會影響非洲豬瘟 所以可以繼續用但是你們發給我們所有養豬戶的公文裡面在第5點第5條裡面就有提到說除以養豬場的經過補助轉型飼料後不得再以動物性跟植物性的廢棄物來餵養"},{"start":8776.522,"end":8804.825,"text":"是不是你們的發給人家公文是這樣寫的但是你剛剛有說過植物型的廢紮廢棄物是可以繼續用的那你發給他們的公文為什麼這樣寫沒有 我要跟委員報告一個部分是在轉型期間一個部分是在轉型以後2027年以後呢那2027年以後因為不能在自己的場域裡面去做徵組不管是植物性的或動物性的因為你一旦讓他同意在"},{"start":8805.666,"end":8831.178,"text":"他自己場域蒸煮的時候他有可能 你們補助之後的話他場域裡面所有的蒸煮設備都一定要拆除嗎那拆除之後他不能還不能用這個植物性的廢料嗎他不能自己蒸煮他如果說用其他的蒸煮去做蒸煮以後那是OK的所以你是考慮說因為植物性的廢料還是需要蒸煮還是需要蒸煮嗎如果他不用蒸煮呢他自己攪拌就可以餵食呢"},{"start":8832.448,"end":8850.416,"text":"沒有 它如果不蒸煮它可以自己去養沒問題啊但是那就可以用植物性的廢料是不是植物性廢料是可以一直是可以的一直是可以可是你公文發下去是不可以沒有 那個是在後面在既有的蒸煮設備裡面都不能用拆除後可以用"},{"start":8851.297,"end":8880.098,"text":"拆除以後你要用植物性料源因為是業者特別拿這公文來問我所以我盡量請部長你要釐清這個問題我想我們會再跟業者說明清楚我們發這個公文是說在自己的蒸煮廠不管是動物的植物的不能在自己的蒸煮廠蒸煮這是一件事情但是你的蒸煮廠拆除以後植物性的料源你可以從外面外面直接進去裡面不做蒸煮那是OK的"},{"start":8880.878,"end":8892.583,"text":"所以植物性的廢料豆渣都可以繼續使用對這個公問可不可以請你們再發給業者我覺得這沒問題 這可以吧澄清一下好不好我們把它弄把它釐清啦好 謝謝"},{"start":8894.568,"end":8916.947,"text":"好 謝謝非常感謝我們李玉玲委員所提出的這個行政單位農業部跟環境部我們要請你們政策下來那麼我們在執行民眾地方政府配合的時候請你們務必要把你們的政策制度指令"},{"start":8917.628,"end":8934.132,"text":"方法清楚才不會讓地方的民眾一件一件一直提出來那針對剛剛李玉玲委員所提出的也請務必趕快去理清楚那也將方式給經濟委員會給我們李玉玲委員謝謝接下來我們請賴樂龍委員請做詢答好謝謝召委我先請那個沈次長我們再請沈次長"},{"start":8948.114,"end":8952.732,"text":"好 次長好我先請教一下現在整個廚餘的去化的狀況"},{"start":8953.737,"end":8980.051,"text":"那我們每日可以增加每日產生2115噸那當然本來進入到養豬這個部分有家戶跟事業那家戶593這個已經禁止了嘛這個禁止那事業的部分我們有一些落日的部分嘛那731噸的一日計算1噸到廚藝養豬但是現在也傳出了有一些不管是幸運上處理上這個部分環境部怎麼來處理"},{"start":8982.069,"end":8999.225,"text":"明年1月1号起有一年的时间是缓冲期这个部分的731吨的事业厨艺其实是可以继续养猪的对 但是现在有传出了很多因为可能不管是价格的提升或者行营上面等等它变成了有面临到的一些困难这个环境部怎么来协助"},{"start":9000.802,"end":9020.124,"text":"目前的情況是因為現在是全部禁止處於養豬的所以在這兩個禮拜之內到年底之前這段時間是最辛苦的各縣市環保局都在因應這個部分那目前是因為已經有一些養豬場他接受農業部的輔導轉型他就決定明年1月1號開始他不再"},{"start":9020.844,"end":9030.973,"text":"吃廚餘了所以他也決定這個時候就不要再去收運了是因為這樣造成的原因那在明年1月1號開始繼續廚餘養豬的部分現在已經有270幾個廠提出申請要裝智慧監控"},{"start":9036.678,"end":9060.432,"text":"那我們設定他應該就是要繼續養的那這個部分他會繼續服務這樣的一個產生源所以明年的部分可能這個壓力會減輕那我們現在地方這種主要因應都是在這15天之內那這15天的問題可以做解決嗎跟委員報告這15天各縣市都有不同的方式在處理現在我們就請各縣市環保局必須要提供轄內可以協助清運的量能"},{"start":9061.092,"end":9089.133,"text":"主要就是以及清除業者或者是現在有一些貨運行他的車輛也可以來市長我要問的是環境部可以協助所有各地的環保局把這件事情處理妥善處理完畢可以嗎沒有問題吧因為環境部有跟各縣市環保局每個禮拜都有兩次在協調所以這件事情在這兩個禮拜內會把它圓滿處理都有在處理圓滿處理完畢是希望好我不是希望是一定要不要讓這件事情變成另外一個風波"},{"start":9090.233,"end":9107.78,"text":"那當然明年1月1號之後又會有另外一個新的那我希望這件事情讓環保署要展現出你們的跟地方政府溝通協調能力把這件事情處理得完善好不好好可以了那另外其他的部分其實不管是其他的養豬除以的養豬以外的有791"},{"start":9111.302,"end":9130.615,"text":"791噸然後包括現在進養的這個1384甚至於有些如果他不走那一條方向的話那未來的這個從明年開始的1384噸一天1384噸甚至有可能比這個再更多啦那這樣的狀況以現在的我們的處理的量有沒有問題"},{"start":9132.408,"end":9154.056,"text":"報告目前我們盤點各縣市所報上來的不管是政府部門或者是民間大概可以再利用的量大概是一千一百一千一百噸左右了對再利用一千一百噸是那其實2115是去年一整年的統計量但是在從10月23號到目前為止這段時間的除以實際"},{"start":9156.417,"end":9170.684,"text":"實際產生量這段時間因為禁止廚餘養豬嘛所以那個量其實是可以被參考的這個部分的平均量大概是1700多噸而已不到2100噸所以是1700噸有略減 那略減我們估計他原因可能是"},{"start":9171.625,"end":9187.762,"text":"鹽頭就減量了因為現在不斷在呼籲大家能夠洗食吃多少煮多少鹽頭減量另外有一部分的民眾是配合政府的清運政策希望他們鹽頭就把它瀝乾所以其實水分也有減少了一些在這種情形之下真正需要處理的大概有284噸會走"},{"start":9189.864,"end":9207.482,"text":"魂化或掩埋但是魂化或掩埋是一個過度的一個緊急的應變的措施我們不希望它是一個永久性的所以我們還是希望能夠輔導再利用量能起來所以各地方政府目前有規劃在未來的一年緩衝期之內要做的就是增加再利用的量能大概有600多噸會上來"},{"start":9209.424,"end":9233.593,"text":"所以我希望接下來這一段時間一方面持續在前端的部分鼓勵大家就減少這些的優先減量這個邀請我也希望環境部跟各個環保局都能夠更具體的一些做法好不好更具體的做法給經濟委員會這邊那另外一方面我也希望在後端這個處理上面的能夠再找到更妥善的一些處理方式好不好"},{"start":9234.754,"end":9258.994,"text":"這兩邊都要去同步進行臺灣要成為一個更進步的國家同時間臺灣也要讓我們的租資產業能夠得到確保的時候這些都是應該要做的事情好不好我請環保署要加大力道來跟地方的環保局來合作完成這樣的一個工作好不好好 謝謝那再來我請教一下這個大概剛剛提到了我現在是不是請教一下部長了好不好來 剩一點時間我請教部長次長先休息一下"},{"start":9260.609,"end":9276.04,"text":"部長我們現在在中央其實我們有轉型的包括飼料的一些補助包括大家那我先問一下如果依照現在的不管是從現在的立即來轉成飼料跟未來一年的時間之後轉用飼料的話這個總經費大概要花多少經費18億左右那這經費的來源從哪裡來"},{"start":9287.508,"end":9312.55,"text":"從行政院用那個災害應該是災害準備金所以這個經費目前沒有問題沒有問題災害準備金沒有問題那如果接下來的經費呢未來的經費會編列到政府的經費裡面嗎我想我們這個是屬於第三階段的我們經費已經報院然後院裡面大概初步上也同意用災害準備金或是用二倍金的方式來處理"},{"start":9313.577,"end":9336.306,"text":"所以這個是明年度拿來運作嘛對那還會有後續需要的費用嗎後續的部分就會回到我們年度的這個租產業的韌性跟相關的升級的方案裡面所以那個會編入到整個公務預算裡面如果有需要增加的話我想我兩邊應該是互相會去支援這個經費因為如果明年這個計畫實行的順利的話那應該後面剩下的"},{"start":9340.327,"end":9358.519,"text":"應該經費是不會太多的持續的那個租的整個續設的升級跟相關的這些設備的升級我們還是會另外有計劃去那我問一下如果現在我們的總預算此次沒有通過會不會影響到這一筆的這個執行會影響到明年度我們對租產業升級的方案的一個執行"},{"start":9359.266,"end":9382.862,"text":"那對於現行的這個方案會受到影響嗎現行的方案我們是用今年的經費去做處理然後專案保留那明年度這個也注資的也很重要啦因為明年度的很多的我們要求他們要去做政府要補助他們甚至有些退場機制甚至有些扶調機制這個如果總預算只是沒有通過的話這個是新增的預算嘛那新增預算如果立法院沒有審查通過會不會產生影響"},{"start":9383.615,"end":9409.904,"text":"一定會喔 包括剛才很多委員希望說我們中央加強力道給地方補助沒錢 什麼都不能做啦所以我們還是希望部長 這些總經費大概要多少錢明年度要做的這些對於豬吃豬場的這些改善我們明年度的話我們編列了大概50點多億啦50億啦50億左右 4年的計畫那明年大概有15億大概應該有15億左右是在豬產業那這是一個新興的計畫嘛 對不對"},{"start":9412.1,"end":9439.503,"text":"這是延續性的嗎還是新的它是沒有它是一個延續性的作為啦但是它在切割的時候是從114到117那我只問的是如果現在總預算遲遲無法審查會不會影響到明年這個15億的預算應該會啊會影響到沒有辦法來執行啦對有一部分的特別是在設置設備補助的部分是沒辦法執行的設置設備一定是新的嘛這一定是新的政策去補助的嘛如果沒有"},{"start":9440.143,"end":9454.994,"text":"延續的政策我們還可以照著過去的走但是如果新興的政策一定要得到立法院的同意才能夠動之所以這個公務員上面不可能違法來執行所以這個如果總預算沒有通過對於這個都會產生影響總預算沒通過不只是這個啦我們所有的農業的相關的"},{"start":9455.714,"end":9484.262,"text":"那我再問一下好了明年度有新興的預算的部分總預算如果沒有通過會造成的影響有大概多少經費會造成影響這個我可能還要再去了解一下初步就部長你的專業的了解啦你不可能都完全不了解到底哪些東西是重要的預算新興的預算應該是超過20億以上超過20億哪幾項比較重大的建設我覺得有非常多的像冷鏈冷鏈的計畫就是一個非常重要的還有一些冷鏈這個對農民很重要"},{"start":9484.622,"end":9494.271,"text":"特別是在治水裡面的農水路的部分還有相關的這些剝地防災的部分那個是影響最大的"},{"start":9495.652,"end":9520.299,"text":"所以治水包括農水路包括這個冷鏈那現在還有這個株枝的這個部分對這個部分可能就是我希望農業部還是要持續的對外界做說明好不好預算遲遲無法審查這不僅是立法院的這個懈怠不僅是立法院的失職同時間對於整個政府的運作會產生重大影響我認為各部會都要積極的對外界做說明"},{"start":9521.059,"end":9548.15,"text":"會 我們會來準備一些資料希望立法院盡速來審查讓整個很多重要對攸關人民攸關農民的一些新興的預算能夠盡速來通過這也是立法院的職責啦我希望盡速來通過好不好 部長就你們該講的要不斷讓人民知道那這樣子才能夠讓人民清楚也讓所得力我們知道不審預算這件事情對於國家的傷害跟對於政府跟對人民的傷害是很大的好不好好 謝謝部長"},{"start":9555.472,"end":9582.866,"text":"好 接下來我們請陳超明委員質詢主席好首先有請我們農業部陳部長部長喂部長好我們的奈瑞農委員很優秀"},{"start":9584.127,"end":9613.233,"text":"但是預算還沒審他就煩惱農業部的預算會被刪但是我報告部長不要完全配合在還沒有審查預算以前你這條嘴不要張得很大要把實際的情形講出來農業部的預算關乎農民所有的立委都不敢亂刪是怎樣用在正確的方向我希望你自在一點剛剛一講你什麼答案都好我是聽了覺得"},{"start":9614.893,"end":9634.738,"text":"我有一件報告 那個農委員問的是說如果總預算沒有審 不是三樓沒有審的話 一些新興的計畫不能進行你一想說不會 不會審嘛現在就放口風 再製造矛盾 再製造分化我希望部長記得這個原則農民的預算 所謂經濟委員會 我了解"},{"start":9638.579,"end":9655.818,"text":"不管你执政党不管你国民党大家都会替农民来全力发声这一点你放心我很感谢所有经济委员会不管哪一位政党的委员都支持我们的业余酸你现在颜色越来越重来我再给你请教第一个问题"},{"start":9657.113,"end":9679.106,"text":"那個土豬的養成要到窄的時候大概要幾個月你說那個土黑豬大概要15個月吧15個月 白豬幾個月白豬大概180天土黑豬的話大概一年180天 6個月 7個月 對所以剛剛李議員的委員在講現在桃竹苗養"},{"start":9680.387,"end":9704.788,"text":"黑枝的地方最多一家地差百年那裡的飼料費用會成本很高所以我們接到所有的反應都覺得現在農業部給養那個黑枝跟土枝的話飼料非常非常的貴養枝裡面飼料是佔了一個非常重大的一個成本補充到大方的啦"},{"start":9706.29,"end":9724.281,"text":"把福島兩三年發明新的一個機制出來把池以當為飼料你們也有研究單位其實可以好好研究早就要有所準備了好不好"},{"start":9725.117,"end":9728.522,"text":"我們已經在規劃怎麼樣把廚藝變成飼料化的一個輔導團隊現在廚藝一年一天有2100公噸以前這裡的廚藝都是養黑豬佔了六成把它吃掉"},{"start":9743.73,"end":9756.031,"text":"你現在在說的 尤其那個環境部裡面啊說你們將來要以文化的燃燒堆毀黑水盲生態等方式你們都不可以下去"},{"start":9757.984,"end":9775.695,"text":"焚化爐燒 你燒得太多太久 焚化爐很快灰掉你堆灰會臭 民眾會反對你的黑水池收集把它焚化 那裡面我整個大家會怕你不要想得很天真 很美滿再來你說生殖的功能"},{"start":9782.208,"end":9799.475,"text":"所以這一點不要空口說白話你一定要實際的經驗實際的把這個環境以人家怎麼做做出來很好都要去學習環境部長沒有請你起來你聽好其實這幾個方案在地方會反對很大"},{"start":9800.438,"end":9827.598,"text":"我們了解不希望連放個說廚藝的垃圾桶放在哪裡都增值得很厲害給你設那麼多你沒在整個照規都不知道這點我希望你準備一下今天農業部也不要因你而賠死你曉得苗栗縣有一個養殖場叫做全盛養殖場"},{"start":9828.973,"end":9857.342,"text":"他是在苗栗以北最大的養殖場他以前跟你們申請也通過了就是全省唯一共同增值中心你們也核准他了也審查通過了在審查的時候那裡面有規劃先辦事業這個劉董有問你們審查委員若那個非洲裔"},{"start":9859.133,"end":9882.508,"text":"資本發生的時候 可以不可以即時使用你們說可以但是一發生的時候 你們這幾天都動了它投資了一億多現在放在那裡 每天背在歷史在那一邊我現在要跟你說這件事情其實它現在經營得非常好它高溫殺菌的 它是用"},{"start":9883.615,"end":9895.888,"text":"四葉廚藝專門去收四葉廚藝過來燒了以後而且它這個廚藝它自己來養它的白豬一般廚藝養黑豬它養白豬你現在把它動起來"},{"start":9899.346,"end":9926.073,"text":"他生死未復天天提心吊膽不然的話你們怎麼不去看他那一場他如果做得很成功而且非常順利而且可以消化廚藝你們這樣一件事發生要全部擋起來所以你們這裡做的都沒有科學的辦法安裝去成功人有什麼人做得有成功的我們就依照這樣來推展你曉得這個事情嗎"},{"start":9929.212,"end":9931.032,"text":"所以你說觀望他在別部養殖場最大"},{"start":9959.7,"end":9980.897,"text":"大概有四五周我也跟你确实讲给我长一点时间他工厂在通宵养殖场在通宵我从那边经过的时候我吓了一跳他的黄色盖的像日本式害我要进去访问当初还没有熟我还打个犹豫我要不要进去到里面非常干净你不要讲观望"},{"start":9981.738,"end":10005.931,"text":"他用他曾子的廚藝來養他的白豬養得又大又肥又好你說大家觀啊 當然是觀望啊但是你們要實地去瞭解啊所以今天我為什麼特別提出來你們這樣把它丟掉 你們要賠償嗎我請求你們同意你們農業部也是當初鼓勵的喔"},{"start":10007.802,"end":10035.21,"text":"我想在整個的一個共同政府中心本身後續我們會協助他把它轉型為廚餘的飼料化的一個工廠好 你廚餘飼料化他說液化食油他還特別跟我提醒你們把規範制定出來他到日本去學習也取得日本的專利的授權技術在但是我現在要做肥料化他叫做液化廚餘"},{"start":10036.59,"end":10058.975,"text":"可以养殖的但是没有标准到时候你又不承认你这个增幅度的事情什么都动掉没什么事情你没想过平常去关心人家做这个事情到底好坏它的成果如何所以你跟我讲其他的养殖物都在观望它有五六场"},{"start":10060.034,"end":10068.932,"text":"它是北部最大的它用它的東西在養殖所以它的競爭力特別強長得又好啊你如果不要用這個讓我去想"},{"start":10070.433,"end":10094.33,"text":"所以保證都下鄉不要只往南部走有時候提供給你一些好的一個科技資訊讓你參考其實這個全順的部分我們也一直在關心就像您剛才說的我們未來福島它轉型成為池巫瑜的一個飼料化工廠這些法令的部分我們也會完備你現在這樣說我不會相信一發生你沒有問他你這邊怎麼樣你們就擋掉"},{"start":10096.391,"end":10119.976,"text":"那我成立一個專案小市你親自帶隊來下鄉考察養殖物那麼多這個方式可行的話你們就要去思考了你單只聽環境部講一個焚化爐那要有多貴啊你燒廚藝要有多貴啊你還要設立一個堆肥堆肥會臭餒你要在山上去堆肥啊把它封起來"},{"start":10121.092,"end":10143.468,"text":"沒有 你都不知道抗爭我厲害的 你知道我這樣吹公公的就贏實地了解最重要 實地體驗最重要 好不好你們要選市長人還有 時間到沒 好好那個苗栗的肉品市場算是你們的"},{"start":10145.902,"end":10169.812,"text":"副部長有下去那我覺得第一個弱品市場的載輸裡面的你們要把它強化弄得乾淨我們已經有規劃了也麻煩部長再幫忙你懂我講的嗎我了解那個我們的市長以前他沒有注意因為負責經營的人沒有注意這一塊苗栗都沒有申請到"},{"start":10170.894,"end":10189.593,"text":"那時前瞻100億裡面 別的縣市都拿到苗栗縣根本都沒有只撥了多少 做了多少我希望這一點你們能幫我們解決苗栗縣弱品市場的問題我們儘可能來協助啊好好 聽了這句話 我就停止講話停止答詢 謝謝"},{"start":10201.38,"end":10219.47,"text":"好 我們接下來請黃國昌委員質詢謝一鳳質詢完之後 我們休息5分鐘謝謝主席 麻煩有請農業部部長以及環境部的次長好 次長"},{"start":10223.716,"end":10230.992,"text":"兩位好時間的關係直接切入主題針對有關於禁用廚餘養豬這樣子的一個政策"},{"start":10231.96,"end":10260.633,"text":"那為了所有的民眾食的安全那以及我國豬肉那相關的競爭力那以及防治非洲豬瘟等等的政治考慮大的方向上我們是認同的只是說在政策突然變更的情況之下有一些過度時間的衝擊那那個衝擊所影響到的可能不僅僅是養豬戶他那個衝擊是全面性的"},{"start":10261.96,"end":10285.793,"text":"那當然第一個他會處理到的就是廚餘處理的成本那這個廚餘處理的成本之前部長有公開說過說這個轉型成本要往上拉就是不得不得轉型工作那可能包括相關的飲食業者價格是不是會因此而提升等等那目前針對有關於禁止廚餘養豬那這個廚餘處理成本"},{"start":10288.795,"end":10308.142,"text":"那藉由飲食業轉嫁到消費者身上你們農業部也好環境部也好有做過評估嗎大概轉嫁的成本會有多少還是像彭部長所說的每個公斤5到8元全部都轉嫁嗎跟委員報告主要就是"},{"start":10310.168,"end":10330.493,"text":"如果不再處於養豬的話就是會用再運用方式去解決這個問題或者是送焚化爐處理那當然要把清運跟處理的成本要把它算進來是是是 這個我都講過了 對但我的意思是說你們有做過影響的衝擊評估嗎就對於我們目前一般的消費者"},{"start":10332.422,"end":10356.177,"text":"本來出於就是一個垃圾的一部分過去可以出於養豬因為現在基於風險管理已經要斷掉所以它有一個落日嘛落日的時間就是要趕快把那個再利用量上來再利用量很多的時候自然而然價格會下降你先聽我講話好不好就是你講過的話不用一直複述你一直複述你講過的話沒有意義啊我的問題很具體啊"},{"start":10358.338,"end":10372.106,"text":"針對 即使廚餘養豬了以後 廚餘要處理本來不是垃圾 現在變垃圾嘛變成某一種的廢棄物 那處理廢棄物當然有成本嘛它轉嫁到消費者的衝擊影響 你們評估好了嗎有就有 沒有就沒有 這是一個很簡單的問題"},{"start":10374.229,"end":10400.146,"text":"有做過衝擊影響評估嗎就是以目前現行的市場上面處理在利用的費用是多少我們就估過那現在市場上面處理在利用的費用是多少輕運家處理估計都是5塊到8塊每公斤是5塊到8塊你們有去市場實際調查過嗎從各縣市環保局這邊首報回來的這樣的一個數據我現在今天我其實會關心這個事情你看一下照片應該知道"},{"start":10401.86,"end":10416.029,"text":"因為大概在雙北這邊最大的團散的業者他其實處理的是我們國中小學的營養午餐這個會實際的衝擊到我們現在小學生他們每天營養午餐不僅僅是價格的問題"},{"start":10417.27,"end":10443.398,"text":"更是品質的問題那為什麼會涉及到品質的問題啊因為本來的這些廚餘都有養豬戶去收嘛那現在沒有養豬戶去收他們自己就要清運嘛那清運涉及到兩個問題第一個他如果是乙級廢棄物的話就要找乙級廢棄物合格的廠商來運嘛那突然在市場上面找不到這麼多廠商你知不知道說他們有的業者是用運營養午餐的餐車去運廚餘到焚化爐去"},{"start":10446.513,"end":10462.346,"text":"你知道這個現象嗎這在法規上是容許的嗎如果從非清華來看事業是可以來運送這樣的到環保局指定的地點所以直接用餐車去運沒有問題嗎因為現在業者需要一個清楚的答案"},{"start":10464.659,"end":10492.829,"text":"除了這個廢棄物沒有問題之外另外一個就是食安法食安法也有規定就是你不要把廢棄物跟運食物同時運送所以基本上如果是他運完了之後以這個陳明信理事長他的場來講他送完之後他六日的部分沒有去公餐他的車輛是可以做這樣的事情OK好那第二個問題齁我們去關心完了以後因為焚化爐我們所得到的呈現是下午有時候請車子去"},{"start":10493.615,"end":10515.627,"text":"在那邊大排長龍要排兩三個小時還不一定排得到所以我們請黨團發文請教你們各個縣市目前在處理廚餘廢機物的焚化爐各個縣市他目前的量能跟他的分布那上禮拜五請你們回文剛剛我查了到現在都還沒有回文回來還需要多久"},{"start":10518.7,"end":10538.706,"text":"我早就發文了上禮拜五請你們回文結果到現在都沒有回覆因為我覺得現在我們在關心反映業者的心聲那業者並不是代表他自己而已他背後還有很多小學生那我們發文給你們請你們上禮拜五下班以前把各縣市的量能讓我們知道嘛"},{"start":10539.446,"end":10559.435,"text":"因為我總要去評估業者他們的反應到底有道理沒有道理啊那如果量能不足的話現在接下來要他們怎麼辦你總不可能雙手一攤說量能不足這是你們家的事情那環境部可能說地方政府應該有足夠的量能地方政府有沒有足夠的量能是用嘴巴講的嗎請你們提供一些基本的資訊"},{"start":10560.922,"end":10580.99,"text":"現在是覺得在國會裡面對你們的監督反正行政部門不守法不執法大家也拿你們沒皮條嘛是這樣嗎是這種態度嗎上禮拜五下班以前請教你們的問題今天下班以前送來有沒有問題有沒有困難"},{"start":10584.799,"end":10597.128,"text":"來請市長跟委員報告一下如果是有限一個時間要我們提供資料還沒有送達我在這邊跟您致歉我回去馬上請他們瞭解一下因為我沒有掌握到這個訊息請今天下班以前送來"},{"start":10598.39,"end":10622.992,"text":"要不然的話我跟你沒有辦法進行有意義的討論啊現在廚餘業者到底有幾家每天處理的量能是多少我跟委員報告同仁回報是說我們還沒有收到委員要的資料不可能這是我們黨團發的是我們了解一下好不好好今天下班以前把資料送來是我們收到我們盡快處理然後我最後只講一件事麻煩環境部去真的了解第一線地方政府目前處理的量能因為我聽到如果要去排隊處理這個廚餘"},{"start":10624.733,"end":10650.219,"text":"都要花三四小時大排長龍的話 那個現場的狀況環境部或許應該派官員去現場看一看去問一問在排隊的那些業者他們的心聲否則政策一改變一轉彎雖然是好的方向 中間過渡時期的配套要做好嘛否則造成的衝擊影響真的太大啊市長可以嗎可以嗎可以好 謝謝"},{"start":10655.871,"end":10664.888,"text":"好 請陳廷輝委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請農業部部長跟環境部次長"},{"start":10672.775,"end":10678.542,"text":"先 部長部長我想請教一下我們現在兩位因為我們現在全國儲備的總產量依照113年的統計是77.2萬公噸然後家戶儲備是50.5萬公噸事業儲備是26.7萬公噸好"},{"start":10694.679,"end":10705.557,"text":"那我們把它飼料化處理的養豬處理的大約是48.3萬公噸那現在我們禁止之後那麼這些廚餘要跑到哪裡去"},{"start":10706.806,"end":10728.852,"text":"我們現在要怎麼處理來 我們部長市長跟委員報告一下目前的還沒有禁止處理羊豬之前大概有六成的處理其實是我們的羊豬業者在餵羊這樣的一個方式在處理所以也有大概有四成的部分是走我們的在利用設施去處理的"},{"start":10729.712,"end":10754.23,"text":"市长现在我们就是已经要转型到不要再用厨余养猪我们不论是农业部现在在推的政策我们让他能够自行决定到底我要不要使用还是我要继续使用我们现在让他有一个dayline自己去决定那么势必我们后面要面对的这些"},{"start":10755.59,"end":10766.356,"text":"這些量我們要怎麼辦跟委員報告剛剛講的是在禁止出養之前的情況沒錯 我說我要問現在那10月23號開始因為發生了回收植物溫的案件之後"},{"start":10767.509,"end":10787.89,"text":"已經禁止廚餘養豬全國已經禁止廚養到目前為止所以這段時間大概會有百分之五十以上的廚餘是走進魂化或野脈用緊急應變的方式在處理但是我們希望最終還是要走再利用循環所以在未來的一年你有沒有去看現在所有的廚餘"},{"start":10791.138,"end":10805.63,"text":"你用緊急的畢竟它的量還是不夠是那所以量不夠我們現在農環境部沒有錯你要求你編列預算處理費去讓地方政府去處理但是就沒地方了"},{"start":10806.491,"end":10835.643,"text":"你沒有地方那你怎麼去面對這個問題那今天農業部一直鼓勵大家不要使用尤其在Daylight的時間點叫你要轉型這個勢必要轉型這個不得不轉型我們現在禁用廚餘之後我覺得這就是要變成為了我們的安全問題可是好這一段時間所發生出來的量在之後所發出來的量你要怎麼辦"},{"start":10836.363,"end":10864.709,"text":"坤委員報告在未來的一年之內各縣市環保局會增加600噸的再利用的量以台南市為主它要蓋一座160噸的生殖能源設施它可以解決我們台南產生的這樣的一個好 這多久 處理的部分多久 它需要三年的時間三年啊 對 是三年啊 這段時間怎麼辦它必須要透過民間的堆毀或者是黑水門的方式來做這樣的一個處理那有部分的量還繼續要靠混化爐 市長 沒搞"},{"start":10866.499,"end":10887.434,"text":"不夠你現在講的是你的目標值但是實質跟我們現在所遇到的問題是無法解決的所以我一直強調沒錯我們現在要蓋一個能夠處理未來台南的廚餘的帳的一個量體三檔這三檔呢這三檔要怎麼辦"},{"start":10891.934,"end":10916.411,"text":"市長你們有想過這三年怎麼辦然後我們看到一大堆的廚餘招不攏招不攏了你們說有我們請地方政府再處理可是地方政府他要拿到哪裡去你說你們現在先用掩埋的進入焚化爐可是量還是無法去負擔"},{"start":10918.342,"end":10943.371,"text":"我們今天講的是一個實質的問題然後當我們農業部在鼓勵我們所有過去用廚餘養豬的一定都要轉型勢必一定要轉型我們也編了轉型飼料養豬那但是呢那如果我們今天進入到家戶及社區型的廚餘乾燥機的補助呢市長 部長你們認為呢"},{"start":10948.089,"end":10972.368,"text":"如果我們進入環境部然後來督導推動地方政府去辦理家戶及社區型尤其學校的廚餘怎麼辦學校廚餘我們自己可以鼓勵他們來做廚餘乾燥機啊由政府單位來做啊我們要不要編列經費要不要是不是可以往這個方向來做由各自"},{"start":10973.581,"end":10996.209,"text":"各自减少减少那么我们的量体就不会那么大我们是不是可以把这个专案提出来跟委员报告一下如果地方有提出因地制宜源头减量的方式其实我们都希望他们可以去推广去推动可是推广我们中央有预算来协助他们吗你这样学校我觉得从学校端你们要鼓励教育部"},{"start":10997.793,"end":11015.419,"text":"然後鼓勵學校端編列相關預算去作為他們學校營養午餐廚餘的一個處置對不對 這叫源頭我們從公部門先做嘛我們公部門如果減少了我們的一個量體"},{"start":11016.559,"end":11040.348,"text":"那是不是減少後端的一個處理那我們再從家戶 家戶其實他的這個廚藥乾燥機的補助其實補助金額不高可是他必須要變成是一個運動也就是大家願意從我自己的源頭來處理好 不要說家戶 是不是給我社區性"},{"start":11041.718,"end":11070.02,"text":"好 家戶可能這個小規模如果我們用社區型或是餐廳餐飲我們來鼓勵他來做廚餘乾燥機的補助給他然後鼓勵他們自己來做廚餘源頭的減量這樣是不是更好我們一定要分別從我們政府去蓋大量體的然後再從小規模的"},{"start":11071.089,"end":11076.327,"text":"源頭解決市長你認為呢跟委員報告一下你能不能提一個計畫從"},{"start":11078.69,"end":11105.015,"text":"產生廚餘端來看這個產生廚餘就好像是產生垃圾一樣是啊它必須要互惠來處理這是一個使用者互惠的概念但是現在是因為遇到非洲豬瘟這個事件所以我們不得不趕快去做這些源頭管控所以我們補貼一點用專案補貼一點讓他們加入這樣的一個源頭管控處理垃圾的部分"},{"start":11106.785,"end":11126.96,"text":"這個是一個很重要的點跟委員報告我先講這樣的一個合理性補貼這件事情容我們來研議但是我要說明的是如果產生源自己把這樣的廚餘因為透過乾燥機他會減量水分就會去掉了他要處理所付的費用自然而然就省下來了對他來講就是一個經濟誘因"},{"start":11128.981,"end":11151.483,"text":"這個就是相輔相成我們用這個概念去推動也就是我們政府在這個關鍵時刻因為沒有人想到會發生台中非中豬瘟這件事情所以既然發生了我們現在也正式我們禁止用廚餘來餵豬那這個部分我們就應該要配套"},{"start":11152.833,"end":11168.883,"text":"那這個配套如果可以相對性的補助一點他又減少了他自己事業廚餘的這個處理費那就是相輔相成這才有誘因啊好不好讓我們來研議了好不好 市長再拜託了謝謝好 接下來我們請謝亦鳳委員質詢"},{"start":11186.067,"end":11190.849,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我想要請陳部長跟沈次長兩位早安我的確有一個就是說涉及到兩個部會共同來協助處理的部分需要問"},{"start":11208.704,"end":11228.239,"text":"請教於兩位喔 就是說從目前廚餘在台灣是被廢清法裡面認為是一般的廢棄物那如果未來想要比照日本的ecofit這樣的模式去轉型成環保飼料的時候是不是要修法"},{"start":11230.029,"end":11244.669,"text":"第一個部分跟委員報告如果說廚餘變成飼料的話它本身就是飼料那飼料的話就會根據飼料管理法那邊去做這些相關的一個規範它不會再去考慮說它的料源是廚餘或是不是廚餘"},{"start":11245.49,"end":11269.716,"text":"所以這就是廚餘就不會被認定為一般廢棄物嗎是不是他變成飼料就不是一般廢棄物不是嗎所以廢清法部分就不用修因為廢清法是環境部的嘛對不對所以廢清法的部分就不用修了是不是而是在飼料的管理法裡面來做修法相關修法是嗎"},{"start":11271.735,"end":11299.427,"text":"那那個陳部長我想請問那未來我們是不是有可能向日本這樣的處理方式跟委員報告就是特別委員關心的就是怎麼樣讓廚藝能夠真正的再利用變成飼料委員一直關心所以我們也參考了日本的相關的那個Ecofeed本身的一個規範然後也成立了一個專案的一個團隊然後希望說透過公司協力的方式第一個先把技術的取得確認"},{"start":11300.848,"end":11327.655,"text":"然後再看看說可不可以用既有的珍珠中心去做這些設備的更改變成一個飼料化的一個工廠所以是要用既有的珍珠中心嗎這是最快的那如果說它是小規模的話它也可以用小規模的像日本它有一些小規模的這些廚餘的直接變成飼料化的這些設備那這個設備我們也在考慮是不是先引進來去做一些測試"},{"start":11329.48,"end":11356.929,"text":"那未來就是說我們要怎麼樣子把這個除於就是循環再利用減肥嗎那到底環境部有沒有規劃往生殖能的方面有跟委員報告目前台灣有兩個生殖能源廠一個是在桃園一個是台中那目前有一座是藍投在招標作業當中那規劃的目前有台南跟高雄"},{"start":11357.779,"end":11375.992,"text":"那未來要多久因為我們現在你也知道我們現在眼睜睜的就面臨到我們禁止廚餘養豬以後現在學校的這些團善業者還有我們的家用的廚餘等等都面臨到無去處的這個情況嗎"},{"start":11378.574,"end":11402.473,"text":"你看你教學校怎麼處理這些事情跟委員報告剛剛講的那個藍投台南跟高雄那是在117年會完成那三年以後是但是在116年底的時候台灣的在地用量能就已經大於產生量了那為什麼呢你怎麼計算的我們在明年的一年當中地方政府報上來的他們可以增加的在地用量能包括"},{"start":11403.294,"end":11430.354,"text":"快速堆回或者是傳統堆回或者是黑水門再利用等等或者是跟污水下水道系統共消化的部分的量能加起來有600噸在未來的一年未來的兩年就是116年的時候會再增加400噸那你把它變成了就是說你把它都變成了地下污水下水道等等的共消化是其中一個選項另外就是堆回或者是黑水門再利用"},{"start":11430.95,"end":11459.252,"text":"那至於黑水盟在利用的問題我也要就教於你我們兩個一起去看過是不是我們兩個一起去看過黑水盟的那個啊可是黑水盟的確在過程當中它需要一個發酵的那個過程會產生的氣味會讓互信的就是周邊的如果有居住的人或者是同場域的人會覺得不舒服嗎是不是那這個部分有沒有辦法做解決"},{"start":11460.063,"end":11482.479,"text":"跟委員報告那個當然不管是什麼樣的處理設施都應該要考慮到設置的地點的適合性然後做好居民溝通我舉的例子現在不是只有民間設黑水門的場地方政府的清潔隊也有我知道是那我也問過我們的清潔隊的隊員他們過去在處理轉運的過程當中他收的傢戶來之後他再送去處理"},{"start":11484.2,"end":11503.53,"text":"戰制的過程當中如果他採用的是用黑水門來取代過去的傳統的方式他改善了他的環境衛生所以清潔隊員是歡迎的所以這個不是不是因為我是說如果有這一種氣味的產生那那個發酵過程你菌種可以改嗎是不是菌種能不能改"},{"start":11505.293,"end":11524.066,"text":"所以我不瞭解就是說黑水盟基本上就是飼養了蟲體來吃掉這個我知道我知道我們那天去看了嘛我們去看你也你也同樣的我不曉得那天你有沒有拿手去我當然有啊對啊那個有溫度的蟲蟲其實它沒有特別的溫度沒有特別的味道我當然有啊你不是也有嗎有是啊是啊"},{"start":11524.226,"end":11540.252,"text":"我是說就是這個會產生造成鄰近設施的這個大家居民的問題我認為你也要想辦法來做相關的解決好不好環境部你這種你就是應該要解決一下就是居民的生活品質的問題嘛"},{"start":11542.253,"end":11566.292,"text":"畢竟台灣就是地狹人稠的地方大家都是很接近這些鄉鄰的設施所以是不是能夠就這個部分環境部也要想出具體解決方法現在很多嘛 你改善菌種然後減低氣味等等的這很多方式可以改善 是不是"},{"start":11567.9,"end":11576.847,"text":"部長 我再就教於你現在怎麼辦 飼料養豬就是廚藥不能養豬以後 那飼料怎麼辦"},{"start":11578.484,"end":11603.084,"text":"这你要讲一下第一个部分我觉得现在问题就是说我们现在这些黑猪的部分过去用厨余嘛那他们过往一直没有习惯用饲料所以第一个部分就是让他们习惯怎么样用一个饲料去饲养那这个饲料我们现在叙事所有一些就是专门黑猪的这些饲料配方让他们有这样的一个习惯"},{"start":11603.604,"end":11631.274,"text":"那因為用飼料的話他的生育期就不會跟廚餘一樣那麼長因為廚餘本身是低蛋白的部分所以我想我們會成立我們已經成立一個黑豬的輔導團隊會不會增加成本成本是一定會增加會不會增加成本一定會增加成本但是相對的你看現在就是很麻煩就是你看養豬的成本也增加學校團善的費用的處理的費用也增加所以兩邊增加嘛對不對"},{"start":11631.994,"end":11647.197,"text":"對 我想短期內一定增加但是長期來講的話我們是用確保這些原來的黑豬產業能夠持續發展而且它的利潤是能夠做一個維持基本的維持這個我想我們是我們要的一個目標"},{"start":11647.967,"end":11664.198,"text":"那請問一下他如果這些珍珠的設施他才剛買有沒有那如果趕不上你們那種ecofit這樣子的方式就是用原本的珍珠設施去做這些就是環保飼料那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":11665.038,"end":11683.037,"text":"我想我们现在会用目前的共同争处中心像苗栗的那个全数当作一个暗场去协助它变成一个饲料化工厂那自己在家里是没有办法变成一个饲料的因为饲料化工厂它有它的品规规格化的问题"},{"start":11683.837,"end":11710.294,"text":"所以一般就是说小型的没有办法自己没办法做那有没有就是说那这个他们拆除设备怎么样子相关的我们后续如果说我们的Ecofeed如果觉得说这个技术是可行的我们会鼓励一些另外他成立一个不在猪场里面在外面成立一个做这样的一个厨艺饲料化的一个小型工厂这个我想我们都愿意来辅导"},{"start":11710.785,"end":11719.853,"text":"所以就是原有的珍珠設施可以變成小型不行 在原來的租場是不行的不行 不行要在外面就對了在外面 對因為我們擔心說那這個怎麼樣子協助他們轉型"},{"start":11721.827,"end":11748.857,"text":"我想轉型本身特別是剛才也有人提到一些其他的植物性料源那我們也會利用在豬場以外的這些正主中心去做成這些飼料化的原料然後再提供給豬場這樣的話會在防疫的角度會比較安全好 希望說儘速去處理好不好因為現在現在廚餘真的是造成大家很大的困擾我知道 我也非常關心我想我們一定會努力好 謝謝陳部長好 謝謝"},{"start":11756.202,"end":11759.032,"text":"休息五分鐘休息五分鐘"},{"start":12068.973,"end":12094.239,"text":"好 我們繼續開會我們請蘇青前委員質詢好 謝謝主席我們請陳部長陳部長委員好部長 部長辛苦了第一個問題"},{"start":12095.376,"end":12109.024,"text":"就上次我跟在院會上質詢的獸醫師在屠宰場大型經濟週五的待遇跟出席你有提高待遇不開獎金要做嗎"},{"start":12110.277,"end":12125.796,"text":"我跟委員報告分兩個部分一個部分我在防疫的過程中發現到說地方的防疫人員不足所以我也在中央應變中心裡面請各地方政府統計他們現在人力不足的到底不足到多少"},{"start":12126.357,"end":12144.898,"text":"那這個部分他們陸續都有給我一些人員的部分然後我們整理以後我想我會正式的用喊請我們人事總署針對地方的防疫的部分是不是可以增加人這是人的增加的部分這第一個部分那第二個部分就是您剛才講的就是說"},{"start":12145.879,"end":12165.891,"text":"人到位了以後各個養豬場要配置的受益人員本身那他有每一個場本身他給的錢不大一樣嘛那這個部分我想我們再積極再跟各縣市的這些養豬的一個工會再討論你一座五百塊那是要怎麼省錢啦所以這個部分我想我們會再跟養豬協會這邊工會這邊討論你常常說不開獎金要提高到三萬我是說太少要六萬"},{"start":12176.687,"end":12203.025,"text":"這個考慮到因為現在目前不一定所有的獸醫師都從事防疫的工作所以我想我們第一階段先把這些獸醫師的不開業獎金提高了最高到3萬這是第一階段後面看看有沒有機會去處理就是說真正在處理防疫的部分是不是有一個防疫的這些津貼不能一味的一直提高不開業獎金因為有的獸醫師不從事防疫"},{"start":12206.287,"end":12218.171,"text":"不然你每一次出勤的非要給人家增加嘛對 所以這個要跟養豬公會那邊要去討論這個部分 類似沒有啦 時間一萬啦是非的地位尊嚴台無量的鼓勵那個證書是你發的耶受益市的證書你發的耶我覺得這樣對人家來說很不"},{"start":12225.717,"end":12239.881,"text":"很沒保障的對不對房檢署發的不是我發的房檢署一樣都是你 你在管的好啦 我要問第一個問題 我時間有限了主席喔 給30秒啦這個喔 這個 這是你的詩啦我前陣子去問丹喔 去那邊看來 放給大家看這隻很大隻的 這陳欣甫的啦來 放來 放來"},{"start":12250.14,"end":12259.448,"text":"恐龍一般彷彿來到侏羅紀公園遊客拿起手機搶拍想往後閃遠一點還不勝兩槍還有人嚇到一哭這隻差不多要兩公尺了哇靠 這麼大隻啊 都這麼小喔對對對 這大比鵝喔"},{"start":12268.695,"end":12268.955,"text":"來 下一張"},{"start":12298.002,"end":12315.434,"text":"因為時間有限啦 所以來 再來 下一張補到你去東港翁牙要拜拜嗎這裡翁牙要討錢啦沒去過東港我們翁牙 我叫你來拜拜齁這裡東港翁牙要討錢 我看到了再來"},{"start":12319.701,"end":12344.595,"text":"這隻我曾經牠們抓一箱而已這隻沒有的牠們在打人 跟我說牠們在打人 跟我說牠們在打人 跟我說牠們在打人 跟我說牠們在打人 跟我說牠們在打人 跟我說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說牠們在打人 跟說"},{"start":12346.894,"end":12364.02,"text":"因為今年 我跟委員報告今年就是在年初的時候不像很多委員特別是南部的包括委員您就是說希望我們成立一個應變小組所以我們提供了一些更多的經費然後成立跨縣市的一個合作的平台所以今年度抓的特別多現在都中東的多了"},{"start":12368.408,"end":12375.412,"text":"每年都變成15萬隻我們今年應該12萬隻了吧大概今年到11月就12萬隻今年已經抓到22萬隻的部分你過去五萬幾隻不然這不是很討厭的那是軟的 那軟的那軟的還要來看下一站在挖洞 挖軟的"},{"start":12389.748,"end":12400.033,"text":"這不是土豆耶這也不是韓籍耶這是農耶就像我們在看那個空農這樣一樣那個所以現在我嚴肅的問三個問題第一個你現在只有給達人抓普通農民抓的不准算 沒錢他們抓就要抓那種種地那麼高"},{"start":12420.823,"end":12434.636,"text":"到後來有錢沒錢 不管 要騎著一些替代品大隻的 如果說小隻的一百塊這第一個問題第二個問題 他們農民自己的威望在這裡有幫助嗎 他們自己掠 自己掠 自己的餐盒自己掠那你都沒有幫助第三 幾股產 吃了之後 紅豆啊"},{"start":12444.318,"end":12460.573,"text":"什麼什麼豆啊 瓜果類都吃完了啊你有沒有天然沙要補助啊現在還要補蒸紅豆啊他就不只吃紅豆啊 紅豆一開而已啊所以整個所有的餐廳 你看得到嗎全部都吃光光啊這這時間太長了 怎麼辦這你就要吃一顆一顆來啊來撈到兩顆"},{"start":12469.526,"end":12478.627,"text":"兩也要補助啦 歐兩比較好啦那一粒 一箱就八十粒 一百粒他一年有兩次"},{"start":12481.603,"end":12505.16,"text":"我們補農來這裡也不行啦 不管啦這兩個這個 餓兩天的 你也要補多 不然我這真的是議中心常跟你講啦我謝謝委員的提醒喔 第一個部分就是說農民的補分喔他如果經過訓練他是可以的如果沒有經過訓練 因為他現在到列補的時候可能要用到一些器械嘛"},{"start":12505.86,"end":12525.099,"text":"那怕多他的安全的問題所以只要你經過訓練的部分的農民都可以領到這些錢那第二個部分就是說這些補助的部分本身我們現在沒辦法用天然災害因為天然災害有天然災害的規範所以我們現在是提供一些防治的這些資材"},{"start":12528.362,"end":12540.27,"text":"那第三個蛋的部分因為蛋比較不好找不過我想蛋的部分我們後續會來評估如果說有系統的能夠找到這個蛋是從源頭是以老永逸的這個部分我們後續會來評估好接下來我們請"},{"start":12557.552,"end":12585.366,"text":"因為等下中午不休息我們就繼續諮詢我們接下來請鐘嘉編委諮詢主席在場委員先進 夜協政府江蘇黨官員會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請陳部長跟沈次長部長 次長好來保定"},{"start":12586.383,"end":12593.29,"text":"我們說台語說獨語有這個東西廚餘台語怎麼說獨語啊沒有啦我們說噴啦噴啦沒有啦噴就知道了噴是怎麼來的噴要經過獨訪嘛對不對經過獨訪"},{"start":12603.976,"end":12627.109,"text":"烹煮去 人家吃出的 收回來叫做噴但是我們現在說的這叫做熟食 熟廚餘啦但是廚房沒烹煮去的 也有一些切下來的 那不可以吃的那叫做生廚餘 對不對所以我們說禁止廚餘是指廚房的出去回收的那些噴以及不能夠供人食用的這些料 是不是這樣子"},{"start":12628.069,"end":12645.594,"text":"沒有 基本上我們說家務廚餘就是包括這些嗎家務廚餘都包理的都是包理的 生的熟的廚餘出來的清潔隊拉的大概都是這種生的熟的如果他沒有分的話湯湯水水的都有但是我看到你們這個目前禁止廚餘養豬你們現在有分喔"},{"start":12647.423,"end":12671.696,"text":"家戶的那種來源複雜的 慶堆堆收走了不可以或者已清業者收走不可以這些環境部會來做堆肥 黑水盲 生殖能 焚化 掩埋目前這一年未來一年還可以養的養豬的就是有餐廳的 這個比較單純團散的好像還可以那請問過期食品跟加工廠的下繳料 那叫做廚餘嗎"},{"start":12674.195,"end":12689.465,"text":"跟委員報告這個也都是可以列為繼續廚餘養豬的不是它不叫做廚餘它叫做料園對不對所以我們說我們禁廚餘但是在未來一年當中有些廚餘特定的廚餘跟料園可以用來餵豬"},{"start":12690.706,"end":12718.398,"text":"部長是不是這樣子我看你們都在寫嘛允許使用匯豬的廚餘和料源是不是這樣是這樣子那請問喔像這些料源當中請問省次長有沒有廢棄物的再利用的一個可能性跟委員報告這個基本上是參考日本EcoFit的來源也是這樣分類的好那他有分類有編號那我們目前在有編號的這些屬於廢棄物的範疇的可以就可以申請再利用"},{"start":12718.922,"end":12735.194,"text":"但是前提要可以編號可以認可好我們往下看所以現在我先問陳次長這個黑水盲跟你們溝通過很多次了那目前黑水盲短暫時間很多企業想要投資請問目前到目前統計的有在投入的28場都是大型的處理廠嗎"},{"start":12736.857,"end":12756.874,"text":"我所謂大型的是我也不曉得你們的規模是怎麼算包括有像民間的公司像雨田之類的也有像清潔隊自己在飼養的黑水門你看現在28場他可以處理237噸一天所以一天處理平均不到10噸那這個算是大規模還是小規模的"},{"start":12759.942,"end":12779.87,"text":"跟委員報告規模不重要能處理最重要目前的量能大概是只有五六十噸到目前為止對就是未來規劃可能會增加這麼多未來規劃我們要看一下其實我是認為給您一個建議其實剛剛我聽到我們部長有問到我們的謝昭偉我也去摸過那個"},{"start":12780.663,"end":12805.895,"text":"黑水盲的幼蟲他其實他不錯啦應該是問過次長其實在社區裡面是還OK的但是如果說你運送我先請教次長黑水盲的蟲體比較好運送還是為黑水盲的廚餘比較好運送蟲體所以廚餘要救援救地把它處理掉變成蟲體之後他要再利用是不是就比較方便"},{"start":12807.375,"end":12834.888,"text":"是好謝謝那我們就往下看來接下來我來請一下部長陳部長我們在非洲豬瘟爆發之前黑豬有大概62萬5千頭結果經過了108年那一次107年之後就掉了15萬頭現在是47萬頭那你覺得在經過這一次的事件後會剩下多少萬頭有沒有抓一個數量不用存25萬頭大概有沒有一個規模因為黑豬你們現在也在輔導他轉型"},{"start":12836.971,"end":12843.407,"text":"還是講黑豬嗎如果到明年的年底的話應該一場都沒有不是啦 我是說黑豬的產量啦"},{"start":12844.446,"end":12867.001,"text":"黑豬的部分我們盡量的維持這個黑豬的一個產業以前的規模62萬嘛現在掉到47萬嘛未來你估計我們福島轉型可以轉型轉型的部分我們估計可能有一部分的黑豬他會轉成用白豬我是問數量你們估計個目標值大概一半啦至少大概維持到一半可能47萬剩下23萬26 24萬好那請問這些要退場的怎麼退"},{"start":12873.459,"end":12895.511,"text":"他第一個就是轉成白豬飼養不是我說退場黑豬要怎麼退場黑豬本來47萬頭這個產業鏈有母豬有小豬有肥成有育成然後有肥大豬然後在市場那這個產業鏈我所知道的分布是這樣屏東是母豬母豬生小豬而且母豬跟小豬都是吃飼料還不是吃廚餘"},{"start":12896.857,"end":12920.448,"text":"然後呢 培亞頂尿在跟育成的培亞頂尿送到那個對 而且中北部有大量廚餘中北部養肥了才送市場 對不對所以未來的黑豬的這樣的轉型後的產業鏈就不是這樣了嘛因為已經沒有廚餘這個問題了所以屏東也可以成為一個從頭到尾的一個黑豬的產業鏈好 那你估計"},{"start":12921.601,"end":12942.04,"text":"你估計這樣子目前因為母豬大部分都在屏東47萬頭的整年的規模屏東要多少萬頭的母豬未來要撿到多少目前你們的轉型計畫退場有沒有包放母豬我們現在目前的轉型的退場是針對後端的這些豬場"},{"start":12943.551,"end":12967.486,"text":"對 但是你要想 你要從產業鏈整個生命周期來看你要讓黑豬因為沒有料園了 或沒有廚餘了 要縮減所以他要整個往下減 像剛才你講的 對豬肉開始減嘛對 豬肉一年生的幾隻 你就在頭前開始減 後面就減嘛而且現在最麻煩的是什麼 是母豬的養殖場 小豬的養繁育場 為什麼大概十分之一場"},{"start":12969.252,"end":12994.878,"text":"十分之一的量 退場十分之一 請問母豬的退場你們有沒有補助份目前的母豬的場是全部大概十分之一的量就是母豬要十場退到只剩一場就夠了是不是這樣子意思 十分之一沒有現在的這個黑豬的養豬場十分之一部長我還是跟你講一下我們要讓黑豬規模要轉型轉型包括規模會縮減規模縮減一定是從前端嘛 從圓頭嘛圓頭減了後面的量就減嘛那因為現在"},{"start":12999.903,"end":13010.84,"text":"養母豬的他預期後面的量會縮他擔心未來這個生下去之後沒有人要嘛所以他要退場嘛請問目前有沒有對於黑豬場的母豬退場有做輔導補助"},{"start":13013.055,"end":13040.013,"text":"我們現在是沒有 我們現在是正在後端的那因為你前端的 我知道你後端的都是補貼飼料的成本差價啦黑豬的改吃飼料的成本差 問你那前面的母豬的有沒有退場機制因為牠照樣可以領 因為牠如果有牠不吃飼料 你要捏三下嘛牠現在就不吃飼料嘛 你們補的是改吃飼料的成本差嘛只要你是有豬的話 一頭就3600嘛只要是黑豬 不管有沒有吃飼料牠本來就吃飼料啊"},{"start":13041.55,"end":13062.752,"text":"我們這個我們現在沒有在處理我們現在只要你是黑豬所以我說你要一個月內我要你承諾一個月內針對整個黑豬產業鏈整個規模縮減後母豬的源頭要怎麼樣在一個月內很快的生因為母豬牠現在要是懷孕了牠就是等著明年明年的需求嘛明年一年後就沒有了嘛"},{"start":13063.976,"end":13082.481,"text":"所以你們要不要先從母豬開始做這應該要做的啊好 那就承諾一個月內將母豬的退場機制 數量跟方法提報好不好可以好 謝謝好 我們接下來請謝榮介委質詢"},{"start":13097.45,"end":13125.384,"text":"主席我請補充請部長補充你好你好說廚藝叫噴你知道嗎我知道那是俗話說我們都說噴嘛不是俗話那是很文化的話你知不知道噴要怎麼吃噴要怎麼吃我應該不可以吃三點四一二環合的環"},{"start":13127.667,"end":13153.305,"text":"用在洗面叫做噴啊所以這個噴就是洗米汁水啊我們以前洗米起來那個洗米水洗米湯叫做噴啊所以陰性會毒魚啊所以過去說流水不復啊流水不復就是水如果流就不會臭所以有一個汁水之噴啊"},{"start":13154.643,"end":13164.166,"text":"這個樹裡面就有什麼 積水積噴就是說在溪流裡面 還有一個泉河 那個地方都沒有流掉那個地方就有臭味了 就會發汗所以噴是這樣來的了解所以這個噴很嚴重現在如果是池底沒有用噴 當然是會進步"},{"start":13179.224,"end":13186.65,"text":"但是過程中有很多人受到傷害就是說政府會去蜜補這個盆子你說要用到盡大家的農莊沒有生產這個盆子出來 很困難所以我覺得 因為剛才說是不是有客戶要補助有要補助大家 家家戶戶補助於所謂的廚餘機"},{"start":13209.659,"end":13234.062,"text":"水質就是像我們家吃這個春的 湯什麼的 它乾燥起來 它夠味道就可以說應該環保局 環經部會和你合作 我覺得必要政府要鼓勵 政府要鼓勵 減量也不然現在學校包括營養午餐 包括這份的技術 大家偷偷聽"},{"start":13235.464,"end":13238.534,"text":"你看 應該怎麼解決本縣已經有跟你請教過了 你都沒做我跟委員補講 就是說他們"},{"start":13243.703,"end":13260.937,"text":"家家戶戶本身是不是用廚餘機我們曾經也跟環境部討論過那沒關係啦那是一個你們有要補助沒有是我幫你提倡嘛對 這上面你有說過對 地理就是噴的加工我不是跟你說日本就有這個工廠對但是日本的它不是純粹用噴去加工嘛對它這是要再添加蛋白質添加料 添加豆腐讓它變成乾燥料 變成飼料"},{"start":13273.246,"end":13299.603,"text":"所以他的身份的比本更高比一般吃料的更便宜所以他的處置在中間這個以台灣 不用去印證日本的收款啦台灣的工研宜我們的工研宜就有那麼多只要你委託他你跟環境部 我們共同來委託他們我來研發這一定要用工業式的處理啦那麼甚至在"},{"start":13301.5,"end":13320.347,"text":"其實國管署都有需要嘛是不是要在台北市沒有在刺激啊所以就要來刷新北市還是刷中華、台南、高雄、屏東沒有需要台北市也可以設一個這種工場因為它是在地企劃然後研究、包裝、送到地上去用啊"},{"start":13321.789,"end":13334.668,"text":"我說這樣 你有瞭解嗎我專一陣型我們委員講的就是說我們差不多一個月前就去日本去參觀假所以我現在也成立一個專案小組針對日本本身它的"},{"start":13337.812,"end":13353.059,"text":"廚餘的飼料法會保溫喔 他的家務廚餘是沒禮拜的他用市民的下餃料 他有分類 他分就有分類啊他有分類來的喔 事業的部分是可以進來的他有分檔 搭 還有分 其他是肉類 蔬菜 蔬果 其他"},{"start":13354.76,"end":13366.527,"text":"這是我們本身 本來就是專門要共同來面對嘛這本來的東西不可能沒面對啊我現在是說 你有 你總要去看看回來 自己擔心你自己委託要做機械 還是說交給工研院來跟你合作啦"},{"start":13372.41,"end":13392.334,"text":"我告訴你 農業部一直在跟工研院在農業方面就有非常多的這些合作所以後續我們也會跟工研院討論有沒有辦法針對這個部分設計那個機組這個部分我想我們會來做本席在這裡請你跟工研院進行交代你這個月來可以"},{"start":13394.895,"end":13403.47,"text":"你跟香港人的合作意向跟內容跟目標最好要達成的目標這個計劃先是可以提供的本色"},{"start":13405.643,"end":13417.868,"text":"可以 我們跟工研院先討論以後會把基本的想法看幾層沒有 我們已經有在接觸但是他們也要時間去設計一個月之內可以提供可以提供到相關的一個規劃第一階段的規劃就可以了好 謝謝你"},{"start":13438.328,"end":13459.234,"text":"好 接下來林楚瑩 林楚瑩 林楚瑩不在我們接下來請蔡易瑜委員質詢好 謝謝召委那我們是有請農業部部長跟環境部次長部長 喂"},{"start":13468.517,"end":13485.049,"text":"那還是要延續整個上午大家都在討論現在未來這個禁止廚餘養豬那針對廚餘的部分就事業性的一個廚餘就是類似下繳料的這個部分大概還是會就是在排除的外面"},{"start":13486.91,"end":13508.038,"text":"這個排除大概大家會認為有一個比較爭議點的就是說那屬於餐廳的部分餐廳的食材是剩食的部分那他是屬於家用性的廚餘還是事業性的廚餘呢各位報告如果在未來的一年的緩衝期裡面那餐廳的廚餘是可以繼續養豬"},{"start":13510.049,"end":13535.849,"text":"餐廳的廚餘是可以的那餐廳的廚餘你們認為它的來源是相對單純所以是有辦法找到就是跟農業部一起討論的一個結果那基本上我們也參考日本的做法他們有做成這樣的一個環保飼料的工藝的來源大概會指的就是這幾類那環保飼料的話是它是會用種植噴煮通於雷柱還是要分散"},{"start":13537.171,"end":13552.418,"text":"環保飼料那個部分是又下一個階段農業部它會有規劃我現在講是未來的這一年可以繼續作為飼料養豬的來源可以當作養豬來源的部分就是說餐廳的部分你繼續讓他們現在可以飼料養豬環中期今年可以"},{"start":13553.058,"end":13574.974,"text":"跟那一種類似工廠料的工廠料也可以那部分可以家用的因為來源不明這部分就完全禁止養豬也就是說經濟隊收集的部分都不可以養豬了經濟隊去洗衣服都不可以像家中的那就是家戶的那就不是事業性的主義了那農業部呢 農業部的規劃呢"},{"start":13577.296,"end":13601.378,"text":"就未來你們要把工業部後續的規劃就是針對有關於廚餘飼料化的部分對 飼料化我們現在已經成立一個小組希望說有系統將現在目前的可能的共同政府中心或者是可以增加其他的能夠將一些事業的廚餘還是不能用家務廚餘事業的廚餘或是食品下腳料能夠變成有規格的飼料"},{"start":13601.798,"end":13625.275,"text":"那這個部分我想他後續的飼料有機會降低成本那這樣的話對於我們維持黑豬的產業是有幫助的這個我們會來協助好那想要請教就是說好你現在廚餘要做飼料化那事實上我們事實上在推動這個黑水盲的這一個循環的這個產業實際上也推動一段時間但是黑水盲事實上還是有差"},{"start":13625.935,"end":13652.175,"text":"他在去化所謂廚餘的時候的一些障礙其中最大的一點就是土地取得的一個障礙現在他還是需要要用環保用地才能夠去養黑水盲現在用農業用地應該可以現在農業用地要怎麼可以申請嗎這部分是怎樣只要他凝聚新曼四葉就辦理農地的變更編定就可以了農變嘛就是用農變的方式來處理"},{"start":13654.403,"end":13667.002,"text":"有辦法這樣做嗎就是用你現在的農地你如果要做這些黑水盲的話我們可以用他提出一個新辦事業然後我們同意他農地變耕用這種方式那黑水盲之後的使用呢是可以去當飼料"},{"start":13669.028,"end":13676.773,"text":"還是黑水芒的後續的使用方式他應該可以再變成一個飼料化的部分不能直接從體去餵啦他一定要變成變成粉以後變成一個飼料有規格的有規格品的部分就可以餵到豬"},{"start":13687.755,"end":13707.774,"text":"就是黑水芒先去化廚餘然後黑水芒長大後再經過你們的專業處理然後黑水芒就是蟲的部分再轉化成飼料就是我們現在講的就是一個讓它飼料化那站在日本那邱志偉委員帶隊去看的他們所謂的這個就是"},{"start":13709.075,"end":13725.652,"text":"也是經過高溫的高溫把它顆粒化那還是把它做成飼料嘛對 飼料一個最重要的特色就是它的產品是有規格化的而且它的品質是穩定的它不像現在的廚藝有沒有它是不穩定的部長 那這些成本呢"},{"start":13726.653,"end":13750.996,"text":"成本的部分呢沒有我們現在就是說我們一直希望說第一個就是未來黑豬產業的持續發展我們一方面開發現在的配方那另一方面就是用廚藝轉化成飼料那這個兩個是同步在執行的好那部長可以先回那環境部先再留一下是那第二個我要問一下就是說"},{"start":13752.205,"end":13774.397,"text":"事實上這個嘉義市的這個垃圾站自產他4年已經四度大火了從111年8月 112年2月到113年的2月跟114年的4月那都說是不管是鋰電池的自燃啊或者是彈簧船的床墊的自燃總是說他名字叫做站自產但是他"},{"start":13775.987,"end":13795.733,"text":"它的管制的力道就是比一般的這個廢棄物的一個最終氣質廠管的還鬆嘛所以它這樣大火燒起來然後也沒有人有辦法去理解說到底為什麼產生這樣的大火然後每一次只要進入到冬季然後這個東北季風來"},{"start":13796.813,"end":13813.775,"text":"這一些有汙染有毒的這一些氣體類全部都漂到水上跟中埔來造成我們當地的居民的受損這個我也不是第一次質詢了我已經質詢到這一次應該包括在未完會加起來應該是超過四次的質詢了但是"},{"start":13814.947,"end":13835.258,"text":"衛福部都沒有辦法告訴我們像這樣的戰事場它雖然是放在嘉義市的比較偏嘉義市區比較遠的地方但是離嘉義縣人口密集的地方非常近一公里都不到離我們這麼近然後每一次都發生狀況火災了東北季風直接都把這些空氣都影響到我們的縣民"},{"start":13836.218,"end":13849.995,"text":"那我們現在我們環保我們我們環境部到底有什麼辦法可以約束這樣用戰字廠這樣的名字來偷渡他們是做這個垃圾的氣質廠來跟委員報告以嘉義市這個垃圾"},{"start":13852.458,"end":13875.177,"text":"野埋場這個戰事場為例他在戰事的過程當中他必須要加強維護管理比如說消防的設施紅外線的偵測等等那24小時要有人巡檢這是最基本的所以這個部分我們會針對經常發生火災的這些野埋場或戰事場那會做一個全面性的檢討"},{"start":13876.178,"end":13903.699,"text":"希望他們必須要加強這些管理的措施那目的只是為了在第一時間如果因為蓄熱然後引起這樣的一個高溫然後自然的時候第一時間就能夠做這樣這個即時的撲滅那這個部分容我們再跟各縣市環保局會把這個場列為最優先市長我還是要說一下啦你們112年你們說你們說現在因為只有一個叫做資源回收"},{"start":13904.717,"end":13920.815,"text":"储存场实地辅导作业你们只有这样的一个叫做作业办法而已那我已经三度的透过质询包括现在这一次又第四次就是说我们要有一个中央统一规范就是针对这种跨县式的"},{"start":13921.916,"end":13948.908,"text":"他既然他叫做跨縣市他表示他的影響所及並不是只有在他們縣他們自己市區的範圍他已經影響到了周遭縣民的時候是不是這部分的審查必須要做由中央來介入審查不然你們現在嘉義市的這一個環保環保站駐場他們是自己生產的沒關係過他們你知道他們的焚化爐他們也是自己生產的焚化爐要小爐小爐變大爐"},{"start":13951.307,"end":13965.324,"text":"要開始燒的東西要量 要增加會影響到我們的管理人員嗎?會嗎?市長 會嘛 會對不對 不然會這件事他們要通過焚化爐的擴大是嘉義市政府自己審查耶"},{"start":13966.621,"end":13990.398,"text":"那你至少要讓我們嘉義縣表示意見嘛沒有餒 他們都自己審查餒然後你知道嗎 你知道他們多誇張他們說他們有辦一個公聽會然後辦公聽會有邀請我們的議員跟我們公所水上公所跟中埔公所去參加然後我們去參加我們就是表達抗議他就說 因為你們有來抗議所以你們就等於有參加公聽會了這樣就算過了"},{"start":13993.382,"end":14020.701,"text":"市長我跟委員報告像這種鄰近跨縣市的部分我們會特別要求我們的因為這個案子是回收的設施會跟我們的循環署有關那如果是垃圾掩埋場的部分會跟我們的環管署有關不管是環管署或循環署對於這種容易因為戰事造成的這個失火這個部分我們一起來研議啦又噴化爐啦又站住場失火市長我覺得這個我覺得鄉親的感覺都很直白啊瞭解瞭解咱就去那裡你為一條線啦"},{"start":14022.222,"end":14044.678,"text":"看他們那個贊助場到水上工作比較快到中部工作比較快或是去他們家裡政府比較快啦我跟你保證一定是我們比較近啦我們這裡的人口密集這麼高他們放在他們的高窟地圖直接你看他們放在他們的郊區然後告訴我們他們家醫師放在這裡沒有影響我們這裡的縣民就都不是人這個"},{"start":14046.019,"end":14070.475,"text":"中央要介入這種已經是跨縣市的中央要介入那至少兩邊要怎麼樣做好遁清木林要怎樣讓縣的人也可以接受說我旁邊有焚化爐我旁邊有這樣叫做環保氣質場然後發生火災的時候我們都被氣質不理跟委員報告這個案子讓我們會和我們專案來處理再跟委員做一個回報謝謝市長謝謝"},{"start":14077.595,"end":14097.984,"text":"接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢感謝主席我要講久一點因為陳冠廷委員特別拜託請部長跟次長請部長說明一下到底是黑水盟還是黑水盲"},{"start":14100.031,"end":14112.624,"text":"我們要讓嘉義縣兩位委員的說法要口徑要一致黑水蒙吧黑水蒙 好好 那個議員已經有聽到了我來接續剛剛 剛剛先針對"},{"start":14115.527,"end":14143.626,"text":"那個環境部次長的這個戰事的垃圾處理的方式因為在委員會今天也排這個專案報告平均兩個星期就有一個戰事垃圾處理的堆置場火燒了所以它已經不叫做鹹熱設施它叫做環境危險的設施兩個禮拜就一次中央環境部都有在監控我們還持續不斷的讓它持續在發生那我剛才是跟彭部長講說你們到現在還在訂指引"},{"start":14145.808,"end":14173.059,"text":"應該是從幫我去修訂甚至於我們委員會都可以來修法獎程要分明了獎程要很積極的讓地方政府在垃圾戰時對市長裡面他應該要什麼樣的一個規範他應該面對到這樣的火災他必須應該接受到什麼樣的懲處我覺得這個是要請市長特別明確的來跟委員會做這樣一個說明可以吧"},{"start":14175.131,"end":14202.196,"text":"好 謝委員關心這個議題我想這個的確是很多縣市都有這樣的一個情況發生我們也一再的提醒 一再的發文但是事情還是在發生對 所以現在訂指引已經來不及了是 但是只是一個行政指導而且剛剛部長達夫跟海林的報告是兩個是今年的 明年的2月才會把指引訂出來也邀請專家學者還有地方的相關的這些單位來做討論那怎麼需要討論訂一個指引還要兩三個月"},{"start":14203.646,"end":14232.264,"text":"不知道要不要再修幾次所以我講說剛剛委員會排的這個專欄報告你不要這個禮拜又燒一次哪一個縣市又燒一次還是剛剛講的嘉義市又燒一次不符合啦所以特別再拜託次長好不好那第二件事情我請陳部長還有營養環境部的次長我們可能要重新定義廚餘廚餘到底要怎麼定義這個可能要請你們好好說明一下因為政策的成敗在於有沒有系統性且有邏輯的處理的問題"},{"start":14234.566,"end":14262.881,"text":"目前的邏輯斷成在於我們政府切斷了廚餘養豬那既然這條路已經確定明確要這樣走下去了但是原有的廚餘總量它不會消失它不可能憑空消失嘛那你看現在我們有沒有辦法精準的去區分到所謂的高風險廚餘還有所謂的什麼叫可利用的資源所有的廚餘廢棄物如果再這樣下去一定會塞爆我們所有的焚化廠"},{"start":14263.789,"end":14292.06,"text":"跟我們的堆毀場一定會馬上發生而且你看地方政府一直跟中央不會同調我們現在核心的邏輯問題是台北市廚餘全數堆毀處理不再分紅統跟藍統新北市2026年明年開始不再分生廚餘跟熟廚餘台中市維持生熟廚餘分開台南高雄不調整生廚餘的分類"},{"start":14293.476,"end":14319.858,"text":"部長 這個資料正確吧 目前來講你們的掌握是不是這樣跟後端的處理方式有相關所以因地制宜的採取前端的分類方式對 我是說現在各縣市給中央的訊息是不是如此如果是這樣那就糟糕了那你們怎麼去管控不是 各縣市後端處理的方式不同而來決定前端用什麼方式來分類"},{"start":14321.584,"end":14331.485,"text":"如果是桃園來講它生殖能源中心是生手廚藝都可以處理它沒有必要去做分類啊沒有必要把身跟手再分開只要把垃圾跟廚藝分類就好了"},{"start":14333.671,"end":14360.357,"text":"市長你這樣講話也對啦 如果地方政府他可以做到這樣的程度 不過我們覺得今天 今天非洲主溫的感染的來源主要是我們的熟廚宇 肉類的熟廚宇 或是對不起 生熟的肉類的廚宇 應該是這麼講嘛但是我們蔬果的這個廚宇基本上它是沒有這個風險性的啊那我們把這兩個融在一塊 不再做這樣那個源頭的分流那豈不是"},{"start":14361.789,"end":14383.934,"text":"那你說你要讓地方政府他有這樣處理的源頭量能你們就接受會不會再來一次像台中市這種狀況發生我再擔憂這個狀況這個邏輯上的問題會不會再發生這樣的風險可是因為這一次的政策調整主要都基於風險的管控當然沒有錯所以只有一年的緩衝期一年過後全面就禁止出於養豬所以那個風險就已經歸零"},{"start":14385.054,"end":14409.117,"text":"在這種情況之下就過渡的一年之中就會有剛剛委員講的那一種分類的問題那到底怎麼樣分類我們盡量就是把高風險的部分那這一年會不會塞爆焚化廠會不會塞爆隱埋廠會不會塞爆堆肥廠跟委員報告如果委員談的是這個部分那應該就是量能跟再利用量能之間的關係是不是我跟委員報告一下目前除以在禁止養豬的期間產生量大概是1000"},{"start":14411,"end":14432.74,"text":"700多公噸但是我們的再利用量大概有1100公噸的確是有600噸的一個缺口對但是未來的一年因為已經有落日了所以民間會看到這樣的商機之後會投入這樣的再利用的一個管道所以地方政府所報上來的所掌握的不管是公的或者是私有的所投入的量能大概在明年會有增加620噸"},{"start":14434.221,"end":14454.482,"text":"那過程當中當然就會有銜接不是一步到位所以魂化爐會繼續使用那魂化爐我們擔心的就是操作過程會不會產生代號性的問題這個我們都討論過了包含多少年我都非常清楚我是說要趁這一年這一年甚至我們環境部長都想說可以提早是不是半年就可以解決對不對好那我們是不是趁這個機會"},{"start":14456.644,"end":14475.475,"text":"強調整個系統整個邏輯上的一個處理趕快的來做這樣更積極的分流包含現在比較低階果菜市場基本上還是初級的市面架空都還把這些可能一些蔬果啦齁這些這些這些下甲料都還把他當成一般市域會期不再處理"},{"start":14476.587,"end":14504.518,"text":"那我是覺得國外很多的這個先進的科技生物科技也好農業科技也好其實都已經巡迴在利用甚至於農業零廢棄我們都朝向這個方向了那現在在家用的部分家務的部分竟然把生廚宇跟熟廚宇又把它混在一塊我覺得這不應該發生啊我要講這個源頭我先講這個簡單的源頭就好家務的廚宇怎麼會容許我們地方政府把生的跟熟的又混在一塊沒有道理啊"},{"start":14507.154,"end":14531.823,"text":"請答我如果它後端的再利用是屬於做堆回的它不見得要分類的時候我們為什麼要強制它要分類如果是屬於生殖冷驗養消化設施的也不需要去分的時候為什麼我們要做這樣的一個分類一般人民百姓聽不清楚市長講的這麼細啦因為後端的再利用的方式來決定前端這600噸如果又把它混在一塊啦"},{"start":14532.745,"end":14555.906,"text":"不要跟一般的垃圾混在一起當然不是一般的垃圾現在就針對生處與跟熟處與為什麼我們可以容許地方政府把垃圾混在一塊因為生或熟收來之後他再利用要看他做什麼樣的再利用好 時間主席在提醒我了我們回顧這一次這個次長跟部長應該很清楚台中的這個疫情調查來看疫情只有兩個關鍵的資訊斷鏈第一個是車輛的軌跡不明"},{"start":14559.449,"end":14581.923,"text":"一輛驗出陽性的出移車 其這個行駛的軌跡無法完全掌握這是環境部的問題 輝華流向失控 暗藏私下出移分送給西洋出藏顯示出即便在有納管的情況之下 私下轉運依然猖獗那我要表達說 現在連合法申報的期間 我們都抓不到私下轉運的這些黑數"},{"start":14583.324,"end":14604.501,"text":"然後我們現在要全面禁止了喔然後我們要容許地方政府把這樣的生豬與寵物群分在一塊我覺得我現在在邏輯上我是沒辦法接受的市長你要表達那個我聽得清楚但是人民百姓聽不清楚為什麼我們在處理豬與我們禁止豬與養豬的情況之下我們可以默許這樣事情發生啦處長你聽我講什麼"},{"start":14612.185,"end":14633.894,"text":"委員你講的是後端的我前段也講我後段也講因為時間的關係我把兩個混在一起講給你聽所以委員是關心的是緩衝期一年期間的事情還是指落日之後的事情我覺得緩衝期會馬上遇到了嘛緩衝只有一年的時間嘛是所以分類上面我們基本上加護的部分我們都不讓他進去了"},{"start":14634.949,"end":14643.918,"text":"就沒有所謂分類之後的風險的問題家戶的部分不管生或熟就看地方政府收來的這些廚餘他要做什麼樣的方式再利用"},{"start":14645.305,"end":14666.918,"text":"如果他要進魂化爐他也不需要分啦短時間之內如果只能用魂化處理所以你不擔心魂化爐會塞爆不擔心魂化爐因為溺水的問題導致魂化爐又壞掉然後又不能收取其他的一般會氣汙的魂化你都不用擔心這些事情就對了你現在這個部分你跟我講得很清楚我聽得非常清楚所以"},{"start":14667.537,"end":14685.105,"text":"他要不要分類反正到最終都到文化爐來然後反正最終都到堆肥廠所以這一年內你都不需要擔心文化爐的文化量文化廠的問題也不用擔心堆肥廠會去塞爆現在的文化爐壓力最大的就是台中市其他的縣市沒有嗎"},{"start":14686.069,"end":14707.648,"text":"台中市最大接下來台北跟新北市長你要跟我講其他縣市沒有嗎有啊有魂化爐我們現在講的是魂化爐其他縣市沒有因為要收取這麼多的原本不需要收取到魂化場去處理的廚藝它不會有問題嗎這個問題你必須要釐清才答覆我你不要急著答覆我我跟你提醒是有問題今天我才到這個委員會來追尋你好"},{"start":14709.813,"end":14724.615,"text":"那如果要我現在說明我可以說明但是因為需要一點時間那是不是我現在說明就看主席了不是我的問題書面 好書面是好啦謝謝主席已經站出來了站起來了部長最後一點陳部長"},{"start":14725.936,"end":14750.073,"text":"拜托工地放零山坡地农牧用地一定要积极的快速的赶快来做处理一个月内可以吗我们现在目前已经有做内部的讨论但是至于说是不是开放放零这个还要行政院同意内部的规划我们会先规划一个月内可以有规划的初期报告吗有一些初步的规划可以提供给委员"},{"start":14750.333,"end":14768.42,"text":"他只要不要危害這個山坡地的這個保護違反這個生態違反相關的一些法規基本上這些從農的百姓也很多比69年更早之前的都已經在這個地方耕作了那胡耳根有起點的這樣的一個政策"},{"start":14769,"end":14794.747,"text":"不應該只有平地還是養殖嘛應該連散播地都應該一併思考才對對 這個我跟委員報告已經內部已經有做一些討論了但是要分兩個部分一個是58527那個案子那是另外一件案子對然後一般的合法的成熟的散播地那是另外一個案子是所以這個部分我們有分開來做一些研議好 一個內能不能出席應該可以提供提供給委員一些一些我們初步的規劃好 就謝謝江邦部長 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":14801.806,"end":14808.777,"text":"好 接下来陈冠廷陈冠廷陈冠廷委员不在叶炎芝叶炎芝叶炎芝委员不在"},{"start":14810.467,"end":14839.304,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外其議均已發言完畢詢答結束委員陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位以一週內以書面答覆並複製本會委員另要求期限者從期所定本日所列議程處理完畢謝謝大家現在上會"}]}},{"id":"166439","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166439","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906755c9e0adc55f67ae3a1989ac581c2286697ca1ee740c94b6df76adf96966f6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:37:36 - 12:50:54","影片長度":"00:13:18","會議時間":"2025-12-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21 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我們請國防部部長請郭部長是 陳委員部長好我想部長今天有很多的委員大概都是有問同樣的議題但是我還是希望我們的同仁在質詢的時候不要用臆測來去代替證據不要用問題來去代替證據如果要有任何的指控需要以證據為導向"},{"start":29.071,"end":58.483,"text":"那不然對於合法的按照招標這個合法招標的過程取得到這樣標案的這些廠商那我覺得不見得公平那如果覺得有任何弊端那理論上是要透過這個法律的系統你可以去提告那你也可以去做這樣相關的這些做法讓你懷疑的事情可以得到證實如果沒有的話純粹以臆測我覺得是對未來的國防產業工業不太公平但是"},{"start":59.369,"end":82.034,"text":"我們這邊也是想要做一個風險控管的問題來請教部長因為我有注意到這一個從絕標次日到180個日曆日要取得外國政府或他授權合法的輸出許可證明那就可以大概是取得這樣子的做法那我認為我們擔心的部分"},{"start":82.634,"end":99.897,"text":"就是我不在乎這些公司它的這個法律的這個過程怎麼走就是如果它沒有辦法履約的話那我們怎麼樣去懲罰它因為對我們來說這個就是走法律程序我們擔心的是這個戰備的時間跟空窗因為我們都知道2027是一個重要的節點"},{"start":101.078,"end":125.136,"text":"那也就是說假設有一些相關的廠商他不符合這樣子的能力但是卻得到這樣的標案的話那最後我們國家是會懲治他可是在懲治之後我們還是沒有辦法得到合格或者是說符合我們要的品質的這樣不管是剛才提到的這種火藥原物料或者是其他的這些商品所以我擔心的是"},{"start":126.412,"end":145.717,"text":"萬一有一些企業或廠商他參與他同時他完全合法他得到了這個合法設立的登記證明還有得到營業項目的證明還有納稅證明但是他是為了急迫的要得到這個合約那他其實不完全具備這樣的能力"},{"start":146.357,"end":158.263,"text":"那他希望說在180天內他能夠盡量獲得這個能力但是他沒有辦法做自我的完整的評估那最後還是沒有辦法繳獲的話那對於我們戰備的這個會不會有空窗這個部分可不可以請部長簡單的回應"},{"start":159.397,"end":186.089,"text":"所以跟委員報告與其在那個他的資本額跟他的一些公司名稱上面大家在那邊講來講去不如要講的就是合約如何控制風險以合約來控制風險那我們的控制風險講得很清楚他在參標的時候他就要拿出預算金額的3%那就表示說他要有把握他才會來參標他如果今天兩手空空"},{"start":186.949,"end":216.181,"text":"他怎麼來參標呢對不對部長完全同意我進一步的來談這件事情因為我擔心的是說假設他把這金額的3%或者是預算金額的5%當成是可以來干擾我國得到這些戰備能力的代價也就是說我們現在去做針對的考核是針對企業沒有針對人員來進行考核所以假設這一個企業是相對新設立的"},{"start":217.349,"end":244.614,"text":"他有把這些相關的合法證明提供但是他背後的人員萬一他的目的不是要取得這個標案而是要干擾我國取得武獲的進程那這樣子怎麼辦所以我的意思是說我們過去的考核是不是主要是針對一個企業廠商我們未來有沒有可能考核是針對包含他的這些股權結構裡面的負責人或者是實際上這些人員的基本的安全考核因為"},{"start":245.254,"end":260.31,"text":"過去在我們其實這個安全考核這個東西我們很早就提到那我們也知道說最近國防部也好或者相關的國安單位都有做一些相應的調整我覺得都是非常好的但是在廠商的這個部分在企業的部分我想美國他有很多外包的承包商"},{"start":260.911,"end":289.253,"text":"外部的承包商一樣他也需要經過安全核可他要經過機密考核等等他才有資格來去做這些事情那我擔心的是說會不會有一些企業那他的目的不是要取得標案而是要干擾我們五貨的進程這方面是不是我們多慮了部長可不可以簡單講我想委員的指教是很有道理的就是說我們現在就是區分兩種一種就是會涉及機敏的部分那我們就要對廠商"},{"start":289.993,"end":318.182,"text":"做更多的這個查核那現在是這個部分是屬於現貨的那所以我們會就這個廠商啊它如果是大陸地區廠商它不能來投標所以它如果是第三地區含陸資成分的廠商它不能來投標它如果是在台的陸資廠商它也不能來投標那因為它畢竟是一個現貨的東西所以委員擔心我沒有辦法完全排除但是它至少是一個原料的現貨"},{"start":319.202,"end":326.493,"text":"所以重點第一個節點就是在於他絕標之日期他就要想辦法取得訴訴許可的證明主要機密的部門我們已經在做這個相關的這些有關的"},{"start":334.244,"end":349.744,"text":"金流的查核人員的查核治安的查核等等主要是金流跟人員因為我擔心的不是說他他後來的法律的後果因為他有些時候他是願意承擔這些法律後果也要干擾我國武獲的進程那特別是"},{"start":351.726,"end":380.205,"text":"跟過去不太一樣過去20幾年剛才部長有提到有20多家20年有38個案件都是大概用同樣的方式但是這幾年中共的能力跟他的干擾我們情報或者是說干擾我們獲得武獲的能力也是非常大的在提高包含我們提到的這些潛艦他會去干擾我們這些獲得廠商能力的這些人所以我們必須要假設說未來他也有可能"},{"start":381.105,"end":407.604,"text":"利用我們取得武器的進程來拖慢我們取得進程所以商源就很重要所以我剛才其實同意部長你講的這個我們商源要多不能說只有單一的那盡量來鼓勵這個更多的產業跟企業能夠投入這個國防的這個事業它是可以把我們的商源是可以把它多元的分散那這樣子對我們的國防也比較有幫助因為我們不是產能不足我們過去是夠的"},{"start":408.965,"end":412.418,"text":"但是未來要 剛才也提到的我們是為了要被"},{"start":413.972,"end":438.506,"text":"備戰的目的就是要阻止戰爭所以剛才部長有說我們的目的是在這個避戰那其實避戰是交給外交部我們的目的是要備戰備戰是要交給國防部那用外交部來去努力的去來避免來去阻止來去嚇阻來去加強我國各國的盟友我想這些都是有幫助的但是我還是要再次強調這幾個安全考核的部分以人為"},{"start":439.666,"end":466.622,"text":"因為現在可以很快速的新創一個企業等等但是背後的人員 人因人因的這個部分我覺得我們要來去思考一下再來就是剛才部長有提到我們現在這些貿易相關的他說我們需不需要倉儲我們需不需要運送其實205廠就已經來去負責專業的運跟儲所以他們要負責的那一段我們講得很清楚他不必具備這些能力"},{"start":467.222,"end":491.384,"text":"有些能力是需要具備的它是要付出更多的這種投資跟代價有些不用嘛 它是貿易商不是嗎所以這個東西我想也要藉這個機會跟民眾很清晰的來去解釋不是說因為它是這個名字所以它不能做哪件事情而是它要具備它最基本我們的要求重點是要如期如質的把這個東西拿到我們才能夠確保我們的軍備是夠的"},{"start":492.665,"end":511.907,"text":"那我想這樣子跟民眾解釋的話他們可以更理解我們也沒有帶任何情緒我們就是很清晰的跟民眾來報告我們為什麼要做這些事情我們商園要擴大那我們的產能要必須要夠多那商園也要更多樣化才能夠避免這個中共的各種方式來去阻擋"},{"start":512.708,"end":538.329,"text":"那再來另外一個部分我想要提到一下商業衛星的部分跟軍事基地的這個影響最近我們看這個中國解放軍在海南島的基地他有美國的衛星影像中心現在叫做萬拓科技那他是用高解析度的散力影像所以他就是結合了人工智慧的偵查能力就結合人工智慧跟衛星的偵查能力來去做這個統整"},{"start":539.693,"end":557.536,"text":"那我們現在要思考的是說由於現在的科技它基本上它的每一代跟每一代的這種更換的速度它不是以數十年為單位 甚至不是以數年就是每幾個月可能就會有新的能力出來那麼過去的五貨的方式"},{"start":558.297,"end":583.822,"text":"包含美國也是一樣它都是非常繁雜可能會需要的速度沒有辦法來去因應它即將面臨的威脅所以想請教部長我們現在的DIU也好 DIO也好國防部主要的目的還是跟無人機相關的跟太空也有關 是不是是 我們對我們太空的能力的發展也非常的重視"},{"start":585.01,"end":603.578,"text":"所以說這樣快速的這種能力的取得的話現在是以我們的DIU為主嗎我們不管是聯六或者是我們的聯二跟我們的整平思我們都有在這方面的努力"},{"start":604.941,"end":629.069,"text":"我的意思是說有些時候國防部扮演的角色跟民間衛星公司扮演的角色不太一樣有些東西是由我方掌握到的情報跟資訊由我方來去主動來去分享給民間跟民間掌握到的資訊讓民間主動去分享給相關的智庫跟或對軍事有影響力的人它的強度是不太一樣的"},{"start":630.109,"end":649.261,"text":"所以包含國防部也好比如說不適合我們講的其實是可以由民間的合作的這些企業來去主動來去發布所以軍民之間的合作或者是透過類似這種Defense Innovation Unit還是我不知道我們現在正式名叫DIU還是DIO"},{"start":650.342,"end":671.294,"text":"D.I.O我們是用O嘛那以D.I.O來做這個重要的平台我覺得是有它的必要性那事實上美國在D.I.O美國的D.I.O或者是我國的D.I.O都有做一個平台那叫做DEF就是Defense Entrepreneur Forum就是讓這一些跟民間產業"},{"start":672.955,"end":694.361,"text":"有關聯的軍事國防相關的企業能夠共同在一個平台定期的聚會讓軍方可以把他們的問題提出來讓這些民間企業能夠來去知道說這是軍方目前所關切的這個產業鏈所以未來當他們去投資或者是要去具備一些產能之後他們就大概知道軍方的方向是什麼"},{"start":694.921,"end":724.261,"text":"那比方說是情報相關的話他們也可以主動來去展示就像這一間公司一樣主動展示他們的能力那就會讓這些軍方知道說他們有這些能力之後進而來去獲取這些能力或者是分享這些能力我想這是未來我們要不管說商員的剛才我們稍早提到的商員的多量化的取得或者是說讓我們的嚇阻力能夠增加的這種方式我想這些都是我們可以思考的方向"},{"start":725.481,"end":752.032,"text":"我們的DIO其實他們每次跟我報告我都可以看得到他們非常辛苦的在跟我們所有的國內外相關的這些商情然後結合我們的各聯參部門在做相關的這些交流那確定我們的需求那如果達到我們的這個需求的時候我們現在也有進行小批量的採購等等"},{"start":752.572,"end":767.901,"text":"那我們會努力來快速引進我們的這些符合我們需求的這些部長剛剛講到小批量多樣化快速這些就是我們未來國防新創創新的一個非常好的方向就是不是要讓"},{"start":769.198,"end":795.783,"text":"二三十年的大型廠商來去壟斷這個市場就算他們壟斷市場也沒有辦法及時提供一些我們想要獲得的這些武器或者系統或者服務而是讓很多中小型企業這是我們唯一或許有的優勢因為我們是因為確實在現在這個時代已經在傳統的美國那個幾大軍火商之外有很多新創公司他們都不斷的有非常好的idea好 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謝謝請彭部長"},{"start":35.866,"end":60.618,"text":"業文好部長想請教一下我們現在因為那個養豬就是廚餘的養豬現在分兩種嘛一種是家戶的話現在是要禁止嘛對不對但是如果是事業事業的部分的話是還可以去養豬對吧那根據你們的資料顯示就是因為禁止廚餘就是家戶的廚餘禁止養豬大概一天會增加593噸"},{"start":62.799,"end":78.688,"text":"這是全國的數字嗎全國的數字然後呢現在的廚餘除了養豬之外其他的廚餘大概是一天是791噸所以啊593加上791大概一天要去去化的廚餘是1384噸然後根據你們資料呢總設施量是1100噸"},{"start":86.972,"end":104.009,"text":"所以大概會多出284噸必須要透過焚化跟掩埋這是現行的狀況沒錯嘛然後115年的話大概要多出一天要395噸去焚化去化但是因為我現在看到環境部的資料都是全國的總數"},{"start":105.31,"end":122.164,"text":"可是實際上你要處理這個廚餘並不是全國一起統一來調度它是給各縣市的清潔隊或者是以清業者來處理所以換句話說環境部如果負責任的話應該要給大家各縣市的數據我舉個例子來講好了比如說"},{"start":124.105,"end":142.863,"text":"新北市新北市他一天三個焚化爐加起來總共可以處理2600噸可是新北市要必須就是所產生出來的垃圾是3000噸他已經有400噸的垃圾他是要移到外縣市來處理那現在如果再把"},{"start":144.084,"end":170.242,"text":"廚餘的量加進來新北市的部分那就是不夠啦它等於是又有更多的垃圾要移到外縣市來處理那這個會增加什麼這會增加我們新北市的每一個人處理垃圾的費用譬如說可能以輕業者他因為有更多的垃圾他要移到外縣市去處理他會增加成本那羊毛住在羊身上啊他最後增加成本的錢跟誰收跟我們新北市民來收啊"},{"start":170.882,"end":192.083,"text":"所以新北市配合中央的廚餘政策當然這個是環境部為了環境的政策大家都沒有意見可是配套是說怎麼樣在各縣市配合中央之餘中央可以協助不至於說讓新北市民的處理垃圾成本提高特別是在要協助全國調度的部分"},{"start":192.583,"end":202.355,"text":"否則的話可能我們新北市處理你現在給的量其實只看到一個全國台北搞不好沒問題新北搞不好有問題其他縣市又沒問題另外一個縣市又有問題我覺得這樣的一個數據是不夠負責任我不知道說部長能不能跟謝謝委員"},{"start":208.723,"end":228.662,"text":"我澄清一下其實我們都當然我們處理加起來當然有每個縣市的數據新北市目前的量能是平衡的但是它因為新北市目前去化的這個管道像台北市還有一個堆肥廠每天可以處理100多噸那新北市還沒有但是新北市也積極的在開發當中發展當中那它目前的量能並沒有說去化的"},{"start":230.243,"end":254.78,"text":"這個不夠的一個問題但是也跟委員報告其實這個廚餘我們家戶的部分本來就清潔隊在收不會增加我們的費用不會增加本來是家戶在收而且是隨代徵收所以廚藝的問題在新北市的家戶家庭是沒有問題但是有一些如果餐廳餐廳如果是這個要變成是以清去收的話他當然就會有一定的費用包含的焚燒的費用清運的費用的確是在裡面的"},{"start":255.24,"end":273.119,"text":"我講是說你現在是認為說新北市可以自己消化自己垃圾嗎這是非常樂觀的狀況目前的情況目前嘛但是如果把未來的儲運進來的話也許就是他們新北市沒有辦法特別是已清的業者我的了解就是說他沒有辦法處理很多都已經移到外縣市了"},{"start":273.799,"end":292.956,"text":"所以部長你掌握的狀況跟實際上的狀況可能有一定的落差沒有沒有因為我們的廚藥不能夠外送到你是不是各縣市的狀況去掌握一下給一個比較具體的數據每個縣市他的狀況我們都非常清楚我們都跟縣市環保局都有密切的協調"},{"start":294.787,"end":319.836,"text":"可是我了解的不是這樣欸因為你剛剛講說各縣市都可以消化自己的垃圾但我有我實際上了解的狀況除以的話光新北市我剛剛就講了嘛新北市造成的垃圾就是三千噸嘛他的三個焚化爐加起來是兩千六百噸嘛就是有差不多四百噸是要另外去處理的要運到外縣市他們會透過一個協調的機制這就是我了解的狀況嘛但是部長剛剛一直講說"},{"start":320.936,"end":349.034,"text":"沒問題 沒問題甚至於加了廚餘進來都沒問題這是簡單數學的問題沒有沒有 瓜哥我跟你講新北市的目前的這個廚餘是鼓勵他們瀝乾變成是跟垃圾一起去就焚化爐來做那還是會增加啊你本來是可以養豬嘛本來可以養豬現在不行就是會增加這是基本數學問題嘛但是新北市我覺得這個垃圾問題因為是跟民生息息相關啦我覺得不要用一些數字好像就粉飾太平還是你仔細去了解一下好不好"},{"start":350.503,"end":368.093,"text":"可以 沒問題我們跟新北市的狀況因為我們跟你講的狀況跟我實際要有的不一樣我是直接跟環保局的局長直接通電話我們狀況也了解的蠻清楚的你還是除了官方的說法之外也要各方面去打聽一下"},{"start":369.534,"end":389.954,"text":"第二另外我再請教一下因為上禮拜我們在教育委員會核安會有來啦那大家一直針對就是核能如果核電廠如果要研議到底要不要還平這個問題大家都有討論有的民進黨的立委就認為要還平那是還平法的還平不是你講的政策還平"},{"start":390.695,"end":417.047,"text":"那可是因為部長講一個政策環評就讓大家覺得模擬兩可你是認為到底要環評還是不要環評還是政策環評就可以這個部分因為我們也跟那個核安會有過協調因為核安會是指的是游離輻射他需要環評那我們部分環境部的部分是針對對環境影響評估的環評所以基本上我們兩個是不一樣的一個角色但是大家混在一起嘛所以針對環境部的部分如果核電廠研議要環評嗎"},{"start":418.247,"end":442.157,"text":"包委我們的確有在研議我們是討論這個事情因為按照現在的環評法它是既有的設施重啓或研議是不用環評的但是問題是說它是一個新責任的授予所以很多的人也給我們一些不同的意見所以我們也專門也會再研究各國的這樣的一個到底要不要環評所以是有可能要環評"},{"start":442.897,"end":450.422,"text":"基本上委員你們修改了法令光電板5M就要還平了那它這個是幾百公頃你覺得要不要沒有 它是重啟"},{"start":451.994,"end":473.875,"text":"但是他是一個新澤的授予我們講的是新設啊你這是重啟欸重啟是新澤的授予他是一個新澤的授予這不來跟你吵架的好不好沒有沒有那我請教一下那新達電廠火力發電廠他退役的為什麼重啟不用環評那個是不一樣哪裡又不一樣那廢話每一個能源都不一樣啊那我在講核能你講光電那我講火力你又說不一樣這不一樣不一樣委員這個"},{"start":475.577,"end":485.551,"text":"這個時間還沒有到 因為我覺得他們如果要送一個進來也要到一年多後的一個時間那我們現在還有機會再來那你覺得從期要還評的理由是什麼合電廠從期要還評的理由是什麼"},{"start":491.127,"end":504.374,"text":"我們基本上沒有說我現在重啟要還平啊你剛剛說在研議啊你剛剛是說在研議啊然後你剛剛還質疑啊就是說光電板都要還平了為什麼核電廠 剛剛不是你講的嗎這個是很多人質疑的啊不是不是 那你是部長嘛"},{"start":505.632,"end":532.188,"text":"你又不是很多人你是部長你的態度嘛所以你覺得要還是不要基本上現在還沒有到達那個時機點那我們也會再來做研究到底哪一個需要那我這樣講我不知道是不是有曲解你的意思你的意思是說你們在演繹當中只是還沒有到時間點所以時間點到了話到時候你會告訴大家要環評還是不要環評是不是基本上這個是一個程序因為我們畢竟環評我們是環境部我們並沒有核能的專業在裡面"},{"start":533.23,"end":537.906,"text":"所以基本上這個還是我們會跟那個核安會去做核安會就說不需要核安會就說他們該做都會做"},{"start":540.319,"end":567.87,"text":"他們就說他們的部分比如說就他們的業務範圍之內到底重啟對環境的影響他們這個部分他們會做啊對啊那現在有講的是環境部自己要不要根據環評法嗎你們要還是不要按照現在的法規是不要嘛可是你剛剛講說對可是你剛剛講說因為各界給你很多意見所以你們還研議當中而且你說像光電板都要環評的為什麼核電研議不要這個是外界給我的"},{"start":568.87,"end":593.215,"text":"這個是外界給我的質疑外界都有很多意見我們現在問的是環境部的態度嘛基本上現在這個事情還沒有發生所以你現在是要所以是不做要做還是不做還是說到時候再看看我們還在研究當中還在研究就是有可能要做這個主則還是屬於這個何安慧他們要來處理我都聽不懂你到底要講什麼主席你聽得懂他講什麼嗎他聽得懂啊這麼簡單主席他說你聽得懂你就懂嘛"},{"start":593.795,"end":613.748,"text":"不是 我的問題這麼簡單是你要求你一開始要求說合二合三演藝要做環評然後你剛剛又講說這不是你的業務是合安會的業務然後我說那是怎麼樣你說但是有很多人給你意見然後呢時間還沒到所以到時候會出來一個決定而且你說光電板都做了核電廠怎麼可以不做所以你的立場是"},{"start":614.588,"end":643.096,"text":"跳動的浮動的沒有跳動沒有跳動那我現在給你完整時間講到底要做還是不要做這個時間點還沒有到嘛那所以等到那個時間點的時候你會告訴大家要做不做是不是基本上我們還在研究當中嘛所以在研究當中嘛現在就研究要做還是不要做嘛只是時間點還沒到你還不到公佈答案的時候嘛等到時間點到你就要公佈答案要做還是不要做嘛對不對這個不是我公佈的這個還是要我們公佈要不要做環評公佈要不要做環評是不是"},{"start":643.376,"end":662.017,"text":"基本上這個是環評法就有規定現在的這個規定不是嘛 你剛剛就說你剛剛講說現在環評法規定不用做但是因為很多人給你意見所以你們在研議要不要做如果要做你可能就修法嘛你的意思就是這樣啊那我現在問你說是不是這個意思你講話變來變去我們有變來變去啊"},{"start":664.94,"end":681.277,"text":"那是怎樣我以為這時間點都還沒有到時間還沒到那你現在在演繹當中所以我做個簡單結論就是因為時間點還沒到所以你現在無法給大家一個答案就是到底要不要環評嘛但是等到時間到了你就會告訴大家要環評還是不要環評嗎這有去卷你的意思嗎這有去卷你的意思嗎"},{"start":682.538,"end":699.658,"text":"不是 你 這這麼簡單我們剛剛的對話應該是國小程度的對話吧這中文理解有那麼難嗎為什麼中文沒辦法起到溝通的作用除非你立場跳動嘛你很難自圓其說 你才會變這樣嘛但是你不要來一陣 那你的立場到底是什麼"},{"start":701.007,"end":728.28,"text":"基本上現在按照現在的環評法是不需要環評的我當然知道啊我當然知道啊對啊但是你剛剛講說因為很多人給你意見啊所以呢你們在研議要不要做環評啊然後我問你說那要不要你說還沒有到時間點啊所以等到到時候時間點你就會告訴大家要做還是不要做啊我的結論有有違背你的意思嗎而且你剛剛還嗆說哎呦連光電板都要做了為什麼這個這是這是很多人是啊是啊是啊所以很多人"},{"start":729,"end":755.014,"text":"用這個立場來跟你建議嘛就是說連光電板都要做環評的為什麼核電研議不要做環評所以你覺得到時候可能會做環評 你們還在研議當中嘛這樣有說 這樣有講錯嗎基本上各個國家的都有不一樣的狀況嘛我們也在看各個國家怎麼去做這個事情嘛所以你在研議中嘛 你在參考所以你在參考各個國家的意見不是 你在參考各個國家的做法你在參考很多人給你的意見但是因為時間還沒到"},{"start":756.195,"end":771.063,"text":"所以你到時候才會決定要不要做環評就這麼簡單你的意思不就這樣嗎我不知道這個我之前也說過就是這個樣子所以你的意思是說有可能要做只是時間點還沒到你不能這樣套我的話"},{"start":772.003,"end":800.302,"text":"沒有啊!那就是你的意思啊!這就是你的意思啊!這個還沒有發生嘛!這就是你的意思!有可能就是有可能要也有可能不要嘛!因為你在演繹當中嘛!你在參考各國做法嘛!然後很多人給你意見嘛!就是這個意思嘛!然後你還講說光電板都要做,為什麼核電演繹不要做?是別人要求的委員,你不要這樣說啊!不是!我是問部長的立場嘛!誰怪你別人有沒有要求?你是部長嘛!每個人會...有的跟你講要做,有的跟你講不要做!像我就覺得不用做啊!"},{"start":800.882,"end":818.033,"text":"那有人跟你要做 我現在問你是主管機關的態度嘛我又不是問你別人有沒有給你意見你就聽我說的 基本上這個事情有各個國家有各個國家的做法那我們現在按照現在的環評法規是不需要的但是其實也有一派的說這個是新責任的授予 需要"},{"start":818.553,"end":842.495,"text":"但是我們現在會跟那個核安會去討論因為他們是核能的主管機關他到底要做些什麼事情他來他必須要負擔更多的一個責任例如說他這個核子輻射對環境的影響等等他們會比我們專業的多但是我們對公眾參與環保的部分的話全民參與的部分我們也希望他可以參與的參考我們的環評做法可以讓大家可以多一點意見的表達"},{"start":843.303,"end":860.586,"text":"我已經問過核安會了 他就是說他們該做就會做不太需要環境部來下指導棋啦好 謝謝他沒有這樣講後面的是我講 但他說他該做都會做委員你不要多講他說的 他都做的他該做的他都會做但你現在又說你要去找他討論"},{"start":862.861,"end":880.482,"text":"我們也有在討論你又要去找他討論所以你現在的意思就是說和安會做完之後你認為因為很多人給你意見要參考各個做法我沒有這樣講你剛剛就這樣子講的嘛你不要斷章取義喔我沒有這樣講我給你非常多的時間我想在座的包括大家有看質詢都要非常清楚"},{"start":880.762,"end":899.785,"text":"沒有這樣講絕對就只有這樣沒有沒有你就是這個意思我沒有下指導棋喔沒有沒有下指導棋你去找他建議嘛你在受訪還是什麼的時候你就說啊這和安會應該怎樣應該怎樣這不是下指導棋是什麼這是定義的問題嘛那是什麼這是協商啊什麼協商你說和安會要怎樣怎樣怎樣這要協商喔"},{"start":900.706,"end":918.75,"text":"這個是在命令河安會應該怎樣應該怎樣這不是指導棋這是什麼我覺得一直在去炒那個定義的問題你去叫河安會幹嘛幹嘛幹嘛這是指導棋啊這是什麼我們沒有叫他做什麼是人家詢問說這個是誰的責任當然是河安會他們要做這樣的判斷嘛好沒關係啦謝謝好 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量能還沒有起來那我知道各個縣市以台北市來說的話他家戶廚餘還是去做堆肥的所以他其實還是要分類那每個縣市狀況有一點點不一樣像新北市他就覺得你把它放在垃圾裡面反正我都去粉化廠燒掉但是你要立竿所以每個縣市有一點點不一樣但是我們未來還是希望做更有效的利用"},{"start":184.462,"end":206.748,"text":"所以部長結論就是說例如像我常常在各縣市跑行程那我今天到新北我就是把我剩下的這個廚餘把它瀝乾那我去到某個縣市就沒關係全部都把它丟進去那我再到台北市來我可能又要做另外的處理是這樣子"},{"start":207.708,"end":235.707,"text":"其實我們還是希望要分類啦但是因為像我所知道是以新北市來說的話他們因為就是鼓勵大家瀝乾混在垃圾裡面做處理那這樣好不好那個所以部長結論到底是什麼你這樣講我們還是無所適從啦所以在一個時間內我們應該要怎麼辦還是說還是就要看每個人身份證那個開頭還是所在定制在哪裡我們還是期待要分類一定要分類那這樣好不好我這樣講"},{"start":238.529,"end":262.446,"text":"我們在過了這個非常時期邁入正常的時期之後我們的現在不給豬吃廚餘的前提之下那我們接下來廚餘到底真正應該是要怎麼處理還是要分類該分類廚餘還是廚餘那我們一般家庭裡面到底要準備多少個垃圾桶才夠"},{"start":265.194,"end":284.335,"text":"我們是沒關係你講個量這樣我們有概念至少要可燃不可燃還有廚餘對啊但是廚餘又要再分類啊所以我要準備多少個桶子來目前廚餘只要瀝乾就可以了不用去再去分生的熟的吧或者有骨頭沒骨頭這樣子"},{"start":286.104,"end":306.298,"text":"是 這個委員思考得很對因為依照它後續再利用的設施例如它如果是去生殖能源化它大概就不用分類那如果是有些堆肥譬如有一些椰子殼等等那還是會被分出來大概是這個樣子"},{"start":307.159,"end":325.199,"text":"那这个部分就依照各县市他以后所设的这个设施在收集的时候他清洁队就会去宣导他的桶子应该放在什么地方所以原则上以后可能会分成两桶两桶一个是生殖能源化一个是堆肥"},{"start":325.831,"end":345.228,"text":"好那因為我又聽到你的關鍵字就是還是要未來看每個縣市怎麼樣所以我還是很暈倒就是大家仍然是無所適從的所以這個部分不管你們要分各個縣市還是怎麼樣那我就覺得你們是不是可以落實也協助每個縣市就落實宣導"},{"start":347.062,"end":363.613,"text":"到底廚餘應該要怎麼分類因為每個縣市它的像有的縣市它未來就要做生殖能廠那它就可以照嚴署長說的那有的縣市它未來的主力是這個下水道 驗氧發酵有一個潮"},{"start":364.133,"end":380.893,"text":"那他可能就不用特別分類所以我們現在等於是盤點出來的量能未來的量能之後應該可以照委員的建議說能夠再更明確加強宣導那怎麼去做處理所以那你大概預期什麼時候可以達到這個理想的境界"},{"start":381.724,"end":402.986,"text":"我們預計當然這個量能平衡不用去焚化爐大概還要一年多的時間那這個一年多的時間就可以到那個階段那我也請你們就是超前部署提早規劃在這個時間的來臨的時候我們可以怎麼樣大家都做好準備就可以很快上軌道做好分類好不好那"},{"start":405.325,"end":423.944,"text":"那这个部分我想接下来就是说我们身为民意代表也是必须要来替民众发声那一旦就是说垃圾场的大火发生大量的这个浓烟恶臭造成空气品质是非常不好的我们大家将心比心啦"},{"start":425.045,"end":443.495,"text":"居民到底這樣的大火發生的時候居民需不需要暫時撤離或者是發放救助金讓附近的民眾可以離開如果是這樣子的做法有利於這個民眾的健康那環境部是不是應該來好好的規劃一下就是說這些暫時撤離的標準"},{"start":445.856,"end":469.017,"text":"那包括这个气象啊火势蔓延的程度啊还有这个财务救助的发放标准我想这几个方面呢执行面其实是可以来让地方政府来处理但是我觉得经费的部分还是可以由环境部的掌握的这个基金来支应我不晓得部长评估本席这样的"},{"start":469.998,"end":495.332,"text":"政策建議 委員這個我們再來思考啦因為我們空污基金可能沒有這樣的特別的一個用途過但是我們的預警是有的 預警是有那我所知道像像台南這次發生這個烏樹林的事因為燒比較久所以他對於這個附近的居民如何去做一些協助回饋等等他們都有在溝通你說有 但我們台東看起來都是無預警啊"},{"start":497.513,"end":516.362,"text":"無預警也無所適從那這個部分未來我們如果針對這種大型的災害的這個戰事場的分佈如果未來遇到著火的時候怎麼去建議怎麼去處理或許我們可以在這個後面的這個細節裡面接下來我想跟部長稍微就討論一下這個狀況因為我們就從近期台東縣發生了兩場大火來請教"},{"start":523.385,"end":548.622,"text":"最近一場是2025年7月5號發生在我們台東北南鄉山里野蠻場的這個火警那猜測是這個廢棄物堆積發酵產熱然後氣候乾燥風勢又很強勁所引起的那但是真正的起火原因上代釐清目前大家還不是很清楚那這一場火燃燒的這個"},{"start":551.264,"end":573.247,"text":"面積大概有這個400平方公尺左右那因為產生大量的這個濃煙惡臭呢影響到居民的生活所以迫使當地的居民呢必須要暫時的撤離那就是也因此引發了就是說大家對於掩埋場管理還有焚化爐去化能力不足的這些關注"},{"start":574.229,"end":590.171,"text":"要求政府要加速處理堆積垃圾還有這個早氣的問題那部長我就想請教就是說火災發生的時間是在上午9點35分那為什麼大白天了還是沒有辦法在第一時間開始救火呢"},{"start":591.681,"end":620.861,"text":"這個案子我不太清楚可能是通常這個就是說要不斷的灑水噴水那其實因為它的量體如果掩埋場的量體都要很大那其實以我們最近看到幾個例子它要灑水要噴水其實不見得馬上就有效不過每個地方不一樣它的可能是我猜的是它的水線可能沒有很完整所以才會造成這樣的結果所以目前未來對於這種掩埋場它的監控甚至灑水系統等等舊的話我們都要再提升"},{"start":621.301,"end":641.614,"text":"因為當然燃燒的三要素就是溫度、氧氣跟可燃物部長是氣象專家但是火災爆炸他是另外一個專業了我們也請教過專家就是氣體它會閃燃只要溫度到了就會自動燃燒起來"},{"start":642.975,"end":671.685,"text":"那像這種由這個早期引燃火災的這個起火燃點呢都比較低那你們的這個國家環境研究院呢應該趕快去蒐集資料然後就是說跟這個模擬實驗那針對過去的大火天候的因素去做分析然後同時把這些結果呢提供給地方的環保局跟這個各個垃圾場去做有效的監督管理對不對"},{"start":672.685,"end":696.219,"text":"謝謝委員這個建議這個現在我有特別交代我們化學署跟防管署我們要跟那個消防署合作這個是事前的這個預防那這個要做還有一個就是怎麼救就兩個事前的預防像委員講到這個就是燃燒的三要素很重要那因為這個這個掩埋場的火災跟那個一般的家裡的火災是不一樣的所以我們要專門請他們那種消防專業來針對我們來做處理"},{"start":698.8,"end":719.402,"text":"而且我們全台有400多個掩埋場其實每一個掩埋場狀況其實都不太一樣所以他們應該逐一都去做分析研究對好那其次就是不同的可燃物有不同的救災方式那電氣火災跟一般的這個住家火災還有滅火器跟這個救災的策略是不太一樣的"},{"start":719.983,"end":735.095,"text":"那最近從這個台南烏樹林的大火不斷的這個復燒我是擔心是不是說我們的救災設備跟滅火物質可以有更好更新的技術那剛剛部長也有提到就是說我們那個救災的這個"},{"start":737.377,"end":764.212,"text":"救火的方式其實是非常傳統的那尤其是這種大面積的燃燒那消防人員跟車輛其實是很難靠近的還有有這個就是說由這個相關基金應該是說環境部我們是不是針對這個垃圾場的大火由這個相關的基金提供經費給這個消防署讓他們引進新的救災技術"},{"start":765.273,"end":784.13,"text":"部長有沒有覺得這個可行性謝謝委員的建議我們的確是希望跟消防署合作一個研究計畫我們來出錢先來研究說這個怎麼救因為我也聽到說很多人國外說有一個弄一個很大的防火毯整個蓋上去但是那個毯子要很大然後或是說有一些特別的化學藥劑"},{"start":785.111,"end":811.134,"text":"冷卻降溫很多人都提供給我一些意見啦但是其實我是認為還是要請消防專家整個幫我們看這種火要怎麼救因為目前我所看到的實際上第一線的人他還是用灑水來降溫啦所以這個的確是不夠所以委員你說的就是我們現在想要做的所以這個部分如果需要環境部經費挹注協助這個消防署的話也請你們不吝於"},{"start":811.735,"end":837.932,"text":"是 我們現在準備要這樣做希望能夠來規劃一下對 那因為最後的另外一個點是在那個台東台東市的建農垃圾掩埋場的大火那這場大火是發生在凌晨1點15分起火的連燒了很多天那因為火勢很猛烈濃煙惡臭影響到附近的居民所以呢部分的居民都需要暫時的安置後續呢"},{"start":838.812,"end":864.429,"text":"里長很辛苦啦里長也都帶著居民到這個議會去澄清那要求就是要處理這個堆積的垃圾跟早氣喔避免說重蹈覆轍那其實我的原因也是大概就是不離天氣乾燥廢棄物自然還有早氣的累積啦那這邊要強調最後要強調就是說我們台東縣的這個天候的因素特別是在大武那邊喔"},{"start":866.588,"end":881.96,"text":"有焚風啊所以這個很恐怖啊也因此就是說垃圾場呢更容易有出現自然的這個火災那我們整個台東縣其實天氣都是非常熱的喔那地方政府的經費跟資源是有限只要發生這種火災呢"},{"start":882.82,"end":900.475,"text":"都會造成民眾可能會被迫要撤離家園而且可能是在白天也有可能是在深夜那我們不確定這樣子的火災風險是真的讓附近的民眾大家最近都人心惶惶生活很不安那具體的撤離標準"},{"start":901.736,"end":921.47,"text":"那救助金的補助還有研究垃圾自然起火的條件跟提升監督管理的效能我們也需要這個消防救災的單位針對這種垃圾山火災具有最新最有效的控制方法能夠盡早的發現盡早啟動有效的救災"},{"start":924.072,"end":943.654,"text":"讓我們可以減少空氣污染的這個對於健康的影響那這些我們需要像部長這樣有專業有使命的環境部部長來支持那我想以上建議部長今天是否都可以委員你說的就是我想做的但是你特別點到了台東"},{"start":944.575,"end":969.47,"text":"特別的條件特別是有焚風等等的地理條件的特性那我們這邊會到時候把台東的狀況把它考慮進去到時候我們完成的部分如果有一些需要改進的部分也請委員給我們一些指教因為不只焚風我們整體的氣溫就是比較高是好沒問題我們會來辦理好那那個內政部也麻煩把本席的建議帶回去好謝謝謝謝陳英委員發言"}]}},{"id":"166438","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166438","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da759060017e267376eba54908415f8fac51cd36697ca1ee740c94bbe8a7296b23f08fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"12:30:41 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你不知道你還會記下來嗎十年前你訪問老總統 專訪你跟他說你跟他吃兩塊到底有什麼關係有嘛 他跟你說什麼我沒記啊你沒記啊"},{"start":35.68,"end":64.913,"text":"他跟妳說 我不吃兩塊 非敵非友啊非敵非友 那個訪問我有看到所以我在議會跟問我說我們兩個這麼好 你怎麼會說我們兩個非敵非友我就三兩對對 我說非敵即是友 非友即是敵所以起碼我們兩個是不是亦敵亦友他都不敢給我贏啦 潘石英啦"},{"start":66.087,"end":92.183,"text":"對不對 同時我們笑咪咪 氣咬咪咪就不一樣 變成非敵非友我想你看他這麼好 你要了解他對著這個環境聽受的這種心情包括天空也好 包括剛才我不知道說 顧議員在說是苗栗對著這個地上的土風沒有關係嗎"},{"start":94.774,"end":123.088,"text":"不應該是這樣你說你有變一條巫繩這地下車本來就是土豐的主管這叫做土豐那只要他後面有企圖叫做土豐土豐跟土豐綜合應該各縣市都有這個健管單位都有這個申請也都有管理萬一今天沒有土豐你地下車撈起來的時候它會有一個堆置場包括各縣市有一些資源回收場"},{"start":124.798,"end":138.903,"text":"沒有那樣的管理也沒有那樣的統合為什麼你們環境部一直沒有去做這個統合這是不對的國管局如果能夠看好要做統合今天是我們所有的會有這麼多違規的事情會發生土地噴水土池土風土污土災甚至這些人"},{"start":151.514,"end":167.037,"text":"在出發的時候 你的環境部是不是要建議交通部在這個違規 我告訴你所有 我們剛才講這麼多違規包括以前你去台南看的對峙 戰車場那些東西都需要卡車來運輸 你知道嗎沒有卡車他們就跑不走"},{"start":178.001,"end":181.702,"text":"這咖車基本上都 三五棟基本上都有GPS了啦車行 去到檢測官啊他要請我的車 我就去載而已啊跟我不關的啊如果 我是請你載土豐結果 到最後 是載本社載廢棄物 去到不應該去的地方"},{"start":207.591,"end":227.139,"text":"你們是不是要看保肥協調解 像這種就應該把他調白了因為只有調白 他們才會怕只有把他的白調起來 他沒有衛生的工具 那書記他就不敢煩這就煩了那書記不需要用我的白 我也不需要用客家的白去陪你扁"},{"start":228.424,"end":244.292,"text":"啊你們做官房科技賠你們賺大錢啊我賺一個運輸而已運輸是我去加油我應該做我也合理的理順來做而已我是跟你代工的但是你知不知道檢測官過去這裡的案件都怎麼破案的普通我告訴你都是問書記比較問到真相的書記都知道真相"},{"start":256.351,"end":285.164,"text":"所有車隊的司機 他們都知道很嚴重所以這個管理 你要落實的管理你自己坐在那裡整天 要怎麼管 喝多久出糕餐啦我沒騙你 但是對症下藥只要對症下藥 這裡給你塞了 免卡給你頂了我跟你說 陰跟黑白車 陰跟黑白車你像你剛才說的 透過GPS 要抓你很簡單的今天才說破案是這樣來的"},{"start":287.543,"end":311.973,"text":"所以只要這裡是結合起來我看違規軟陀的人大概這個可以減80%以上你知不知道是 報告委員我們除了GPS的外所有的CCTV然後都會弄然後另外一個呢是現在很多的狀況是抓到司機可是罰不了錢因為都脫產了或是指的斷到哪裡不是嘛 我跟你說的意思就是你要調白車要調白 駕駛要調白就像我們現在在高速公路超速"},{"start":315.239,"end":337.996,"text":"你看他們的助理我問不問的 久來的都去用吊牌的敲鎖的喔 這樣他就怕了民間也很多人去用吊牌喔 要再吊腳喔我告訴你 在亂世要用擋電了因為你的環保現在是亂世之中了還有這個噴的事情很嚴重噴現在都沒辦法企劃 我剛才有跟擔保長說"},{"start":341.93,"end":361.236,"text":"這個甘肝胃趕快把它噴可以化作滴的治療他說他這個月已經去日本看了我有要求他在這個月來拿出甘肝胃初步的胃補救台灣要怎麼可以把這個噴再度化為胃補雖然身分會提高一些"},{"start":362.256,"end":380.893,"text":"但是,他可以真的化作滴的治療那麼這是你會害怕的,我會說噴,現在國管局只有營養額參加,一個沒要修我看你們補助地方的這個噴,就去做堆備了你們沒有就去科興了,沒錯嗎"},{"start":384.69,"end":390.641,"text":"後悔後悔衝啊 包括婚娶都不合標準啊做一個報告給你們協商說有啦你們補助者我們就怎樣 都在騙你們你知道嗎都在騙你們 我現在跟你說這樣就是有禁錮"},{"start":397.469,"end":406.454,"text":"你拿給我 我來看真的嗎好啊 你拿給我國管局你們補助他去做堆肥補助他那麼多錢去買機械 買噴水機廖鴻去發工空氣也沒處理炒味 還是一樣的三星那些東西不要騙我啦都在騙你的啦你問那個 什麼就知道了對不對 你不知道喔"},{"start":425.964,"end":430.147,"text":"我告訴你 委員給我 我們請同仁來查 沒問題你沒有就去靠那裡就在那裡捏麻嘛會啦 不管到一個館子委員你就給我還有喔 那次你去看堆置場的灰燒我告訴你喔 台南市的消防就中了4隻"},{"start":447.737,"end":458.634,"text":"他在第一時間就給環保局建議,大型的機構一定要夠位,我靠我都怕會,他沒有這樣做,我們在那裡都很清楚,現在去退休的這裡也沒有意義,"},{"start":459.79,"end":471.783,"text":"但是要怎麼挽救 例如上次你要全台灣做一個大型的潛艇場要怎麼分類 要怎麼枯竹 避免未來再度發生這種災難 空氣污染非常嚴重所以在這裡跟你說"},{"start":481.397,"end":507.689,"text":"以台南市這個個案重新做一個檢討是 你提出你現在的計畫還沒出來啊這要時間因為我們也要跟各縣市環保局也要來溝通然後我們自己也要提出一個也要找專家來討論這個要多久的時間我們預計是二月底二月底會對外公佈現在其實我們內部有一些初步的這個建議方案但是我覺得還可以更好一點這樣我是感覺說你如果立委要公佈你現在立委先分析"},{"start":511.224,"end":517.751,"text":"粗暴的 他們的價位啦我可以給你提供很多意見好 謝謝 多謝你如果沒有 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黑水蒙好 那個議員已經有聽到了我來接續剛剛 剛剛先針對那個環境部次長的這個戰事的垃圾處理的方式因為在委員會今天也排這個專欄報告平均兩個星期"},{"start":44.927,"end":74.121,"text":"就有一個戰車垃圾處理的堆置場火燒了所以它已經不叫做險惡設施它叫做環境危險的設施兩個禮拜就一次中央環境部都有在監控我們還持續不斷的讓它持續在發生那我剛剛是根本跟本部長講說你們到現在還在訂指引沒法啦太遜了應該是從幫我去修訂甚至於我們委員會都可以來修法講程要分明了"},{"start":75.323,"end":93.107,"text":"講成要很積極的讓地方政府在垃圾戰時對市長裡面他應該要什麼樣的一個規範他應該面對到這樣的火災他必須應該接受到什麼樣的懲處我覺得這個是要請市長特別明確的來跟委會做這樣一個說明可以吧"},{"start":95.165,"end":121.25,"text":"好 謝委員關心這個議題我想這個的確是很多縣市都有這樣的一個情況發生我們也一再的提醒 一再的發文但是事情還是在發生對 所以現在訂資營已經來不及了是 它只是一個行政指導而且剛剛部長達夫跟海明的報告是兩個 是今年的 明年的2月才會把資營訂出來也邀請專家學者還有地方的相關的這些單位來做討論那怎麼需要討論 訂一個資營還要兩三個月"},{"start":124.097,"end":152.31,"text":"所以我想說剛剛委員會排的這個專案報告你不要這個禮拜又燒一次哪一個縣市又燒一次還是剛剛講的嘉義市又燒一次所以特別再拜託次長好不好那第二件事情我請陳部長還有營養環境部的次長我們可能要重新定義廚餘廚餘到底要怎麼定義這個可能要請你們好好說明一下因為政策的成敗在於有沒有系統性且有邏輯的處理的問題"},{"start":154.617,"end":182.923,"text":"目前的邏輯斷成在於我們政府切斷了廚餘養豬那既然這條路已經確定明確要這樣走下去了但是原有的廚餘總量它不會消失它不可能憑空消失嘛那你看現在我們有沒有辦法精準的去區分到所謂的高風險廚餘還有所謂的什麼叫可利用的資源所有的廚餘廢棄物如果再這樣下去一定會塞爆我們所有的焚化廠"},{"start":183.82,"end":212.108,"text":"跟我們的堆灰廠一定會馬上發生而且你看地方政府一直跟中央不會同調我們現在核心的邏輯問題是台北市廚餘全數堆毀處理不再分紅統跟藍統新北市2026年明年開始不再分生廚餘跟熟廚餘台中市維持生熟廚餘分開台南高雄不調整生廚餘的分類"},{"start":214.271,"end":239.912,"text":"這個資料正確吧 目前來講你們的掌握是不是這樣跟後端的處理方式有相關所以因地制宜的採取前端的分類方式對 我是說現在各縣市給中央的訊息是不是如此如果是這樣那就糟糕了那你們怎麼去管控不是 各縣市後端處理的方式不同來決定前端用什麼方式來分類"},{"start":241.618,"end":251.539,"text":"如果是桃園來講它生殖能源中心是生手廚藝都可以處理它沒有必要去做分類啊沒有必要把身跟手再分開只要把垃圾跟廚藝分類就好了"},{"start":253.705,"end":280.391,"text":"市長你這樣講話也對啦 如果地方政府他可以做到這樣程度 不過我們覺得今天非洲族分的感染的來源主要是我們的熟廚宇 肉類的熟廚宇 或是對不起 生熟的肉類的廚宇 應該是這麼講嘛但是我們蔬果的這個廚宇基本上他是沒有這個風險性的那我們把這兩個融在一塊 不再做這樣那個源頭的分流那豈不是"},{"start":281.82,"end":303.286,"text":"那你說你要讓地方政府他有這樣處理的源頭量能你們就接受會不會再來一次像台中市這種狀況發生我再擔憂這個狀況這個邏輯上的問題會不會再發生這樣的風險可是因為這一次的政策調整主要都基於風險的管控當然沒有錯所以只有一年的緩衝期一年過後全面就禁止處理養豬所以那個風險就已經歸零"},{"start":305.106,"end":329.135,"text":"在這種情況之下就過渡的一年之中就會有剛剛委員講的那一種分類的問題那到底怎麼樣分類我們盡量就是把高風險的部分那這一年會不會塞爆焚化廠會不會塞爆野脈廠會不會塞爆堆肥廠跟委員報告如果委員談的是這個部分那應該就是量能跟再利用量能之間的關係是不是我跟委員報告一下目前除以在禁止養豬的期間產生量大概是1000"},{"start":331.055,"end":352.791,"text":"700多公噸但是我們的再利用量大概有1100公噸的確是有600噸的一個缺口對但是未來的一年因為已經有落日了所以民間會看到這樣的商機之後會投入這樣的再利用的一個管道所以地方政府所報上來的所掌握的不管是公的或者是私有的所投入的量能大概在明年會有增加620噸"},{"start":354.272,"end":374.644,"text":"那過程當中當然就會有銜接不是一步到位所以魂化爐會繼續使用那魂化爐我們擔心的就是操作過程會不會產生代號性的問題這個我們都討論過了包含多少量我都非常清楚我是說要趁這一年這一年甚至我們環境部長都想說可以提早是不是半年就可以解決嘛對不對好那我們是不是趁這個機會"},{"start":376.686,"end":395.521,"text":"強調整個系統整個邏輯上的一個處理趕快的來做這樣更積極的分流包含現在比較低階的果菜市場基本上還是初級的市面架空都還把這些可能一些蔬果啦齁這些這些這些下甲料都還把他當成一般食用廢棄物在處理"},{"start":396.638,"end":424.572,"text":"那我是覺得國外很多的這個先進的科技生物科技也好農業科技也好其實都已經巡迴在利用甚至於農業零廢棄我們都朝向這個方向了那現在在家用的部分家務的部分竟然把生廚宇跟所廚宇又把它混在一塊我覺得這不應該發生啊我要講這個源頭我先講這個簡單的源頭就好家務的廚宇怎麼會容許我們地方政府把生的跟所的又混在一塊沒有道理啊"},{"start":427.205,"end":451.852,"text":"請答我如果它後端的再利用是屬於做堆回的它不見得要分類的時候我們為什麼要強制它要分類如果是屬於生殖能驗養消化設施的也不需要去分的時候為什麼我們要做這樣的一個分類一般人民百姓聽不清楚 次長講得這麼細啦因為後端的再利用的方式來決定前端這600噸如果又把它混在一塊啦"},{"start":452.776,"end":475.116,"text":"不要跟一般的垃圾混在一起我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然不是一般的垃圾我當然"},{"start":479.5,"end":505.545,"text":"一輛驗出陽性的出移車 其這個行駛的軌跡無法完全掌握這是環境部的問題 揮劃流向失控 暗藏私下出移分送給西洋豬場顯示出即便在有納管的情況之下 私下轉運依然猖獗那我要表達說 現在連合法申報的期間我們都抓不到私下轉運的這些黑數那我們現在全面來禁止了"},{"start":506.425,"end":524.713,"text":"然後我們要容許地方政府把這樣的生豬與跟雄豬分在一塊我覺得 我覺得我現在在邏輯上我是沒辦法接受的市長你要表達那個我聽 我聽得清楚但是人民百姓聽不清楚為什麼我們在處理豬與我們禁止豬與養豬的情況之下我們可以默許這樣事情發生啦處長你聽我講什麼我覺得你講的是後端的"},{"start":534.673,"end":563.963,"text":"我前段也講我後段也講因為時間的關係我把兩個混在一起講給你聽所以委員是關心的是緩衝期一年期間的事情還是指落日之後的事情我覺得緩衝期會馬上遇到了嘛緩衝只有一年的時間嘛是所以分類上面我們基本上加護的部分我們都不讓他進去了就沒有所謂分類之後的風險的問題加護的部分不管生或熟就看地方政府收來的這些廚餘他要做什麼樣的方式再利用"},{"start":565.336,"end":586.972,"text":"如果他要進魂化爐他也不需要分啦短時間之內如果只能用魂化處理所以你不擔心魂化爐會塞爆不擔心魂化爐因為溺水的問題導致魂化爐又壞掉然後又不能收取其他的一般會氣汙的魂化你都不用擔心這些事情就對了你現在這個部分你跟我講得很清楚我聽得非常清楚所以"},{"start":587.588,"end":605.153,"text":"他要不要分類 反正到最終都到魂化爐來然後反正最終都到堆肥廠所以這一年內你都不需要擔心魂化爐的魂化量魂化廠的問題也不用擔心堆肥廠會去塞爆現在的魂化爐壓力最大的就是台中市其他的縣市沒有嗎"},{"start":606.121,"end":627.697,"text":"台中市最大 接下來台北跟新北市長 你要跟我講其他縣市沒有嗎有啊 有魂化爐 我們現在講的是魂化爐其他縣市沒有因為要收取這麼多的原本不需要收取到魂化場去處理的廚藝它不會有問題嗎這問題你必須要釐清才答覆我你不要急著答覆我 我跟你提醒是有問題今天我才到這個委員會來追尋你"},{"start":629.864,"end":644.661,"text":"那如果要我現在說明我可以說明但是因為需要一點時間那是不是我現在說明就看主席了不是我的問題書面 好書面是好啦謝謝主席已經站出來了站起來了部長最後一點陳部長"},{"start":645.987,"end":669.965,"text":"拜託 工地放零 散播地 農牧用地一定要積極的快速的趕快來做處理一個月內可以嗎我們現在目前已經有做內部的討論但是至於說是不是開放放零這個還要行政院同意內部的規劃我們會先規劃一個月內可以有規劃的初期報告嗎有一些初步的規劃可以提供給委員"},{"start":670.385,"end":688.477,"text":"他只要不要危害這個山坡地的這個保護 違反這個生態 違反相關的一些法規基本上這些從農的百姓也很多比69年更早之前的都已經在這個地方耕作了那胡耳根有起點的這樣的一個政策"},{"start":689.257,"end":714.792,"text":"不應該只有平地還是養殖嘛應該連散播地都應該一併思考才對對 這個我跟委員報告已經內部已經有做一些討論了齁但是要分兩個部分一個是58527那個案子那是另外一件案子對然後一般的合法的成熟的散播地那是另外一個案子是所以這個部分我們有分開來做一些研議好 一個月內能不能出一期的應該可以提供提供給委員一些一些我們初步的規劃好 謝謝江邦部長 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166436","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166436","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da759064945eaf39fa32e9a908415f8fac51cd36697ca1ee740c94b7dadbe29f35ae1a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"12:18:12 - 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我們一樣請彭部長邱委員好部長好我看你們今天的書面報告到今年10月底全國的戰資產從112年的84萬噸下降為65.8萬噸那也就是說已經處理了23.2萬噸那大概27%啦那我想問一下就是說"},{"start":34.732,"end":55.21,"text":"你明年年底的這個承諾有沒有辦法完成目前我們還是照原來的承諾往上走雖然原來應該更積極是41萬噸但是因為台南還有包含的廚餘多了大概快20萬噸所以我們這是垃圾山耶這是垃圾也蠻長 露天裸露你們是怎麼樣 就是打包"},{"start":56.111,"end":71.462,"text":"第一個是打包第二個是這個把它覆土掩埋覆土等於是活化再活化再利用的意思嗎基本上如果未來這個焚化爐那個量能夠的話還是希望他可以把它去化掉啦但是這個你要打包你要放到什麼時候這個"},{"start":72.622,"end":89.113,"text":"如果打包的話如果焚化爐啟動的話因為未來大概兩三年後這個焚化爐應該有一些餘裕那就可以來做焚化的處理所以現在是控管住了是不是啊這個狀況現在還有33個露天的對啊 那你明年能完成啊應該是沒有問題"},{"start":90.097,"end":105.218,"text":"好 那如果我們是希望就是說你們說到要做到那當然我也希望說這個你打包之後也不能說把它丟在那邊就不管了那政府應該有一個具體的一個做法那你期待是怎麼樣"},{"start":106.599,"end":127.61,"text":"例如說以台南來說的話他的這個台南當時也是含在裡面嗎那個是是是因為他們的這個晨曦的掩埋廠量還蠻大的然後他的焚化爐未來幾個月應該有機會會新的可以啟動那如果舊的還繼續留著的話應該有辦法注意於去化他的這個這個這個不會越處理越多啦不會不會不會不會"},{"start":128.55,"end":148.821,"text":"那我再問一下就是在高雄那個亂到垃圾的案發生很多青鳥在吹上面說至少高雄是有出滅處理其他縣市暫制垃圾一直都沒有處理把亂到垃圾跟垃圾場裡的暫制垃圾混淆在一起那不小心就把這個情況怪到這個我們環境部頭上去"},{"start":149.602,"end":159.704,"text":"那我替你很抱歉但是我看到今天的報告說還有剩下60.8萬噸那都集中在新竹台南及南投三個縣市現在是哪邊最多"},{"start":161.437,"end":185.952,"text":"應該是台南還有新竹台南台南是因為這個11月底又暴增17萬噸是是風災之後的垃圾嗎是風災的垃圾有沒有包含這個烏蘇林戰事場的這個垃圾場沒有沒有包括所以他不烏蘇林就不含在這裡面了對對對對那個我們是算是這個裸露天裸露的啊那個戰事場沒有算在裡面因為那個本來就未來這幾個月就會去化完成"},{"start":186.636,"end":203.651,"text":"那我看到你們有去那個什麼日本考察這個經驗制定大型災害廢棄物佔治場的防災安全指引那消防安全管理原則分區堆放及進出場管理原則提供地方依循請問你提供給地方了沒有"},{"start":203.971,"end":221.642,"text":"還沒有 因為我們還在研議因為日本是很理想但是在台灣我們的災後的量因為日本其實從發生災害你災害發生的時候你家裡面的器具各方面都要做好分類我們是沒有在分類的所以等於是整個就變成大垃圾出去"},{"start":222.122,"end":236.767,"text":"那你展示的時候不會順便做一次分類嗎很困難 現實例如說以花蓮花蓮那個光復香其實那個整個就一起出來了全部混在一起你沒有辦法分類的那到後面要怎麼處理"},{"start":237.327,"end":264.11,"text":"所以基本上這樣就是變成一個很大的困難所以我們現在一直在觀察說很大困難還是要有個辦法基本上那個當然先進國家有一些好的做法我們會來做參考因為我們通常遇到災害的時候基本上所有垃圾所有東西就混在一起了那當然就造成台南這個事件還是要引以為禁因為這個萬一發生火災這個真是後果不堪設想我希望環境部盡快來妥善處理"},{"start":265.231,"end":283.884,"text":"另外全國失業廢棄物處理及營建產出物的管理我們今年我們台灣一直再度爆發垃圾大戰主要就是當時我們蔡英文總統改變失業廢棄物的處理政策導致每年有高達數百萬噸的失業廢棄物進到一般的焚化爐"},{"start":285.985,"end":292.712,"text":"排擠到一般家庭垃圾的妥善處理率那我看經濟部的報告10個園區17處環保用地請問目前該開辦失業廢棄物專門處理這個設施進度到哪裡這是不是請展發書"},{"start":306.664,"end":335.856,"text":"目前目前的這個17處的環保用地現在只剩下有兩處現在正在待釋出但是這兩個部分的話剛好環境部這現時有在推動這個氣候科技的這個環保計畫我們這兩處的話大概是預備做這兩個計畫的這個使用那其他的其他部分目前都已經有在做這個環保用地的這個使用已經開始使用了那什麼時候可以完全落實"},{"start":337.202,"end":345.025,"text":"完全落實我們現在就是我剛剛講這17個裡面有15個現在都已經落實他們就地處理原則都一樣嗎每個都一樣對都是就地來處理那另外我們進一步成立的北中南觀音張濱還有大發展這個大發產業園區三個有害失業廢棄物處理的示範場目前的運作狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":367.386,"end":392.135,"text":"都在正常運作我們是不是請那個組長這邊說明一下跟委員報告 北中南就是我們在那個桃園 張濱跟高雄的三個那個有害世界廢棄水場目前都是順利運作當中那年處理量是多少年處理量會依照當那個有害世界廢棄物的量每年會有變化所以它的量是無限擴大的"},{"start":392.679,"end":413.22,"text":"沒有 他還是有一個上限啦比如說我們的那個南區的處理量能大概這三區啦 能不能滿足現在的問題現在所有廢棄物處理的這個問題有害事業廢棄物目前是沒有問題的處理都夠就對了已經開始做了嘛好 那接下來我想"},{"start":414.783,"end":441.76,"text":"這個越來越多的糧田餘溫山谷像得了癌症一步一步死去那危害到台灣的農業與環境那兇手其實就是我們營建工程產生的這個廢棄物與剩餘土石方四處爛到像美濃天坑倒採完砂石就被偷買營建廢棄物與土石混合物這當中最主要的破口其實我想中央有同業的規範各縣市的做法不一樣才會導致輕運業者和非法車隊土資廠業者"},{"start":444.361,"end":466.338,"text":"串成這個三角的這個犯罪鏈那部長認為這個問題出在哪裡出在很多的面向例如說我們的去化量不夠然後第二個是過去的管理這個其實從台灣幾十年來不是都有裝GPS嗎沒有土石方的部分沒有土石方沒有然後那我們破獲的幾個案例都是有一些那未來會裝嗎"},{"start":467.739,"end":485.926,"text":"會來全面要裝然後另外一個智慧圍籬然後把它加強監管以後抓到會更容易被抓到你擔不擔心他們裝了這個GPS然後到土質場落場一拳然後就跑掉包委員 我們以後會連結警政單位的CCTV所以這個部分不會有這個問題"},{"start":487.507,"end":500.722,"text":"對 這個還是要去防止啦那我也看到其實有很多問題就是說有一些房子就是建商他在蓋房 蓋大樓的時候那一些土 其實是乾淨的土啦那很多現在也其實全台灣都沒地方去啊這個怎麼辦"},{"start":502.143,"end":516.754,"text":"未來我們會鼓勵現地能不能能夠做好一些分類因為他就是沒有分類才變得廢棄因為有時候啦你說完全沒有垃圾百分之百是好像不太可能那可能有一些參雜到你們有沒有一個比例一個原則"},{"start":517.695,"end":538.994,"text":"有的 有的但是我們是希望因為像這個機關署他們現在舊的大樓拆掉其實在現地就分類的很好然後就可以重新再利用不是說新建的 新建的新建的部分我們當然現在沒有辦法還沒有一個規範出來他只是挖地下室而已啊對啊但是他撈起來可能有一些垃圾或者是有一些那個磚塊啊什麼的是"},{"start":540.675,"end":560.263,"text":"那個都有一定的分類的一個標準例如說磚塊是磚塊R多少類 D什麼類等於是大概都有那當然我們是希望以後源頭可以分類得更好但現在這個還是沒地方去基本上當然現在的確是有問題尤其是我們鄉下很多農民他會其實有一些他的農地他需要改良或者是這個時候"},{"start":561.474,"end":578.326,"text":"就可以給他們利用嘛對不對那這個是地方政府的管轄基本上這個是地方政府要管轄他決定就可以了那因為這個管理是地方政府但是很多地方政府他其實並沒有特別去做一些平台所以以後的這個土資平台在各地方政府"},{"start":579.046,"end":595.452,"text":"我們特別有找了這個幾個自己去化量能不夠的地方要先成立一個平台所以我們都談好了那就是明年的預算然後我們這個預計是明年的預算就可以來推動做這個事情我們知道今年的辦法都已經弄好了都寫掉好了就是明年1月1號開動好"},{"start":598.792,"end":620.868,"text":"因為我看到這其實很多問題就是還有一些土地廠他也在賣證明的問題所以這個已經不是應該已經是公開的一個訊息所以我覺得環境部應該把這個整個會碰到的問題做一個整體的一個規範讓各縣市政府好遵循這樣可以嗎"},{"start":621.368,"end":644.512,"text":"可以 也請委員幫忙因為這個明年我們各縣市都談好了他們要成立一個土資的聯合的一個辦公室都副市長來主持那也請委員多幫我們忙因為這個明年的新增的預算好 可是你們要我們立法院通過要趕快給我們我們才可以幫你們省預算委員要趕快幫我們省你沒有編我怎麼省"},{"start":645.279,"end":658.105,"text":"我們要的都沒變我們已經給啦我們已經給啦給在哪裡啊已經給到立法院了送到立法院錢沒給該給的錢沒給這不是你責任來的你不要腳破筋來啦是是是還有齁最後這個"},{"start":660.806,"end":689.94,"text":"除於禁止養豬那我看到你剛剛聽我也聽到剛剛有講就是說你兩年後要完全的禁止嘛對嘛一年後一年後一年後那現在還是可以用就對了現在還可以用但是家戶都不能用我苗栗縣有一場他是一個年輕人他自己在做了一個我們叫做這個珍珠中心共同珍珠對那他當初是響應政府的政策那我們環境部這邊如果進的時候他怎麼辦"},{"start":691.096,"end":713.104,"text":"第一個這個問題我也跟農業部討論過基本上按照現有的法規是不可以但是其實以農業部來說的話他對於植物性的殘渣這個事業的持續率是沒有進的所以他未來我覺得他可以轉型就跟可能現在的狀況不一樣這個政府能夠介入啦因為他當初也是配合政府的政策然後"},{"start":715.126,"end":734.686,"text":"一個年輕人創業其實不容易他投資其實也不小他一億多 全順的畜牧場因為他是全球的全台的第一場當初也是響應政府政策我希望政府不要把他丟在那邊不管我會跟農業部反映說協助他們來做轉型謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝邱正軍委員發言"}]}},{"id":"166435","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166435","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da7590687cb22c031d1ddf3e3a1989ac581c2286697ca1ee740c94b60fe344e844efea75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"12:24:06 - 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有請顧部長請顧部長是 另一位顧部長好 部長我想請問一下你覺得2027年兩岸會打仗嗎因為還是你認為賴中崇和國防部只是為了找合理的編列向美國採購這些武器所以故意由現在恐嚇人民"},{"start":27.987,"end":51.588,"text":"加上現在大家都有收到近期發布的全民國防手冊就是現在大家都是叫這個叫小局書啦所以心裡都非常的惶恐不安因為我為什麼今天要問這個問題呢是因為這個就是大家最近都在聊天的問題所以就是會聊到說有兩件事情一件事情就是說你們家有沒有收到小局書呢"},{"start":52.308,"end":56.633,"text":"還有另外一件事情就是說2027年真的台灣真的就要打仗了嗎所以連我的助理最近到百貨公司去他都說奇怪那邊的櫃姐都跟他問說那到底是不是要打仗了那我們要怎麼樣對人民做解釋呢"},{"start":69.525,"end":76.367,"text":"所以像專櫃的櫃姐每一個人在聊天居然都在聊天這一個就是說圍繞的2027年兩岸會不會打仗這個議題那是真的是聽起來是真的非常諷刺啦所以我想說可不可以請部長說明解釋一下國防部的立場是這樣第一點"},{"start":86.69,"end":106.432,"text":"我們希望在2027年拿到我們的高戰備能力這是我們的目標這是第一點第二點我們認為有準備更安全所以如果我們準備的當能夠產生一個實力那實力帶來嚇阻用嚇阻才能帶來和平這是我們國防部一貫的立場"},{"start":107.725,"end":137.218,"text":"因為現在很多人都真的是有一點惶恐不安啊針對這個問題我想軍事的部分我們要努力的強化我們的這個裝備的獲得跟實戰化的訓練然後另外當然最重要就是有一個全社會防衛的韌性那我想大家都有這樣子的一個危機的意識我們就能夠確保才能夠以實力帶來和平那這樣子以實力帶來真正的和平是我們中心所期盼的"},{"start":138.274,"end":166.246,"text":"好 那部長其實剛才你所說的我覺得台灣的軍事的裝備確實是真的有投資的必要然後最近因為國軍的人才其實流失非常的嚴重而且導致主戰的部隊其實現在兵線比非常的低落再加上最近爆發的馬防部官兵集體租賬戶的給詐騙局管當人頭的這個事件涉案的整個官兵多達了60多個人然後兵線比不足缺的人數還沒有補滿"},{"start":167.927,"end":172.691,"text":"然後又一次的太楚少了60個前線的官兵這樣真的是雪上加霜先進的裝備需要由熟練的官兵來操作才能有效的嚇阻這整個然後本席是覺得說現在最主要是應該想進整個的"},{"start":184.642,"end":192.427,"text":"方法來招募還有留住更多的優秀的國軍人才才不會讓他們為了經濟而涉險所以國防部都準備要投入1.25兆的特別預算來採購大量的軍事裝備了那為什麼到現在還不願意依法編列預算替軍人加薪呢為國軍留住人才呢我想國防部的立場"},{"start":209.4,"end":220.813,"text":"我們已經一再的說明我們對提高國軍的待遇都是非常的重視但我們比較希望就是說能夠整體的來規劃這個整個國軍的待遇然後來強化我們現在認為邊線比比較低的部隊"},{"start":225.939,"end":251.374,"text":"那我上個禮應該是上上個禮拜吧我也有提到我們會來檢討戰鬥部隊的定義那如果能夠擴大戰鬥部隊的定義的話整體的規劃考量將戰鬥部隊的定義擴大到一個程度的話我覺得更能夠彰顯我們這些主戰部隊的辛苦那我們也更能夠從整體性的觀點來規劃國軍的待遇"},{"start":254.364,"end":259.568,"text":"部長 那我看這個可能要快一點努力一下囉有 我們會跟 我們會來進行溝通好 接下來我想我們空軍現在有140架F16的戰機那是不是112年的時候就已經對外宣稱完成性能的提升了呢但是週一的時候發生了一架F16在飛行訓練的時候飛行員因為肌力的昏迷然後從2萬尺"},{"start":281.423,"end":287.79,"text":"一下子馬上下墜到六千尺還好是因為高度還夠所以也非常也及時的清醒所以才避免了一個悲劇的發生但是這個事情的發生的時候我們才突然的發現原來我們的F16戰機居然沒有安裝自動防墜地系統這種救命的系統"},{"start":302.367,"end":308.57,"text":"那請問一下空軍當初112年對外宣稱的完成性能提升到底是提升了哪些性能否則怎麼都對外說升級而且已經全部完成了而且本來應該就要安裝了這些救命的裝置卻沒有安裝國防部要這樣怎麼才能保障這些國軍飛官的性命安全呢那請一下 請部長回答跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":332.322,"end":339.248,"text":"整個就是block兩棟這140架飛機的性能提升是101年開始執行原先是到112年那後來因為一些彈藥的關係延到117年所以整個奉展專案就是性能提升的這個部分"},{"start":350.576,"end":373.766,"text":"是在101年就開始執行那您剛剛提到這個防撞地系統我們在107年跟美軍做了討論在108年加入這一個項目那在109年才獲得徵付預算所以它不是一開始就有的這個裝備也是希望能夠提高我們戰機的安全係數所以在109年爭取預算之後我們就陸陸續續開始做一個構改"},{"start":378.328,"end":380.89,"text":"那跟委員做簡單的一個報告那109年已經就已經就那時候就已經開始計畫了嘛那為什麼到現在都還沒有裝呢跟委員報告因為在美軍上面這個系統他要用數位的非控電腦"},{"start":394.622,"end":410.673,"text":"才能控制飛機的這些操作那我們的裝備是類比八個兩棟是類比式的電腦所以說在這個部分是花了比較多的時間還在做一個研發跟研改那目前已經初步完成它主要分成三個部分一個是基本的限速"},{"start":411.454,"end":438.535,"text":"一個是混合電腦就是剛剛講的我們要從類比式的電腦變成數位式的電腦那第三個是它的航電軟體的部分因為航電軟體也是非常多的系統正在研發所以它要找出一個節點能夠配合我們整個機隊的研發的時間來建構這個系統這三個要一起搭配才能陸陸續續完成我們整個性能這個Auto GKS就是防撞地系統的這個安裝"},{"start":440.305,"end":444.227,"text":"因為我還是要提醒一下部長因為我這樣看F16在109年還有111年的時候都已經發生這些事情了這樣的話像自動防罪地系統規劃那麼長的時期到現在還沒有是因為這一次發生了這件事情110年發生這些事情的時候我們才突然又討論到這一個問題所以我想應該這個要盡快的速度快點有這個裝備然後還有F16到底有哪些軟硬體還沒有生"},{"start":470.42,"end":492.959,"text":"幾完成的呢那除了AGM-154之外還有沒有一些裝備還沒有到貨的呢能不能一次的交代清楚呢您講的是指我們那個升級的這個部分嗎對而且跟委員報告我們整個在就是block兩棟這個部分就是您剛提到的AGM-154這個陸陸續續已經在提供後續的交貨期程"},{"start":493.439,"end":499.484,"text":"那這一個防撞地系統目前也在進行當中在整個全案117年這兩項東西原則上應該都會完成"},{"start":502.58,"end":521.972,"text":"所以我想說是不是請國防部在今天會議結束之後列出F16目前還沒有升級完成的軟硬體的整個清單還有F16AV型戰機的性能的提升還沒有完全交運的裝備提出一面書面報告給本會的全體的委員讓我們在未來審查預算的時候我們更清楚國防部編列預算的需求可以嗎是"},{"start":529.03,"end":532.071,"text":"接下來我再請教一下部長就是有關今天召委安排的這個RDS的原物料的採購的問題這個採購真的是非常的疑點重重希望國防部能夠向全國人民說清楚這樣講清楚到底這個有沒有弊案所以部長根據你們今天的書面報告內容指出當時國防部決定進口的理由是因為國內沒有產能對不對"},{"start":557.932,"end":579.64,"text":"國內的廠商國內的廠商沒有對不對軍備局一直以來都有產能但是產能我們評估現在認為不足所以我們需要透過國內的廠商用內購外買的方式來取得所以這樣的意思就是說實際上國內就有產能了國內就是只有軍備局"},{"start":581.481,"end":596.79,"text":"對 國內本來就有產能 但是是因為軍備局最近的產能不足所以我們評估認為我們需要用到再有這個大量的一個需求所以我們要用這個採購的方式"},{"start":598.13,"end":602.372,"text":"在外國來進口因為這一筆是將近6億的巨額採購在包含後面還有將近9億的開口合約等於是15億的標案這樣的開標的兩次竟然都是只有一家廠商投標而且這個投標的廠商自己不用有工廠也不用安檢合格存放危險品的特別的倉庫對於這種高度危險的炸藥的採購案金額已經高達15億"},{"start":625.402,"end":631.585,"text":"是符合政府的採購對巨額採購的整個標準但國防部對投標的條件我覺得未免太寬鬆了吧既然讓這一家完全沒有經驗財力不足沒有設備沒有驗證文件而且沒有任何主管機關的認定的話這樣的居然一個裝修公司就可以得標那請部長說明一下"},{"start":648.534,"end":675.215,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個要看標案的性質因為標案的性質是屬於向外採購一個原物料的現貨那麼他一定一運抵這個台灣之後呢就有我們的這個205廠進去押運然後我們這些205廠都是專業的人員所以這個貿易商他不會去接觸到這個相關的這些RDX那在"},{"start":676.376,"end":699.643,"text":"進來之前那麼他應該要去跟原廠去協調還用專船來運輸在運抵之前這個風險都是由他來承擔的所以他沒有需要要有一個什麼地方來囤儲囤儲的都是在我們惡領無產的一個安全的管制地區這個要跟委員說明那我們也過去查了所有歷年辦理這個火藥原物料的相關的這些購案"},{"start":700.483,"end":729.352,"text":"總共20年來總共38個案子也都是採這樣公開招標的方式辦理廠商的資格都一樣也就是都只要有一個公司設立的證明然後納稅的證明跟有從事國際貿易業那這些相關的這些的火藥都也是這些我們可以列舉出來包括VE炸藥等等的還有這些班乃特船的火藥條等等大概資格都是一樣的"},{"start":730.592,"end":746.2,"text":"好,因為為什麼我今天會這樣講呢因為北溪發現國防部最近其實真的是不斷的出現了一些弊端有時候讓八竿子都打不著的廠商都跨行得標像電腦公司可以賣防彈衣的抗彈纖維布還有賣衣材的公司也可以賣防彈衣的抗彈板還有賣廠的通路商也可以賣部隊的軍服所以我北溪還是強烈的建議部長趕快啟動內部調查如果有弊端就要立行"},{"start":759.506,"end":764.608,"text":"法辦因為這個採購案牽涉到炸彈光是在運送的整個途中這個環境就可能會直接的影響到相關人員的人身的安全不能用我們國軍的官兵的生命來開玩笑所以希望部長可以務必趕緊的把疑點把它釐清清楚"},{"start":780.458,"end":793.275,"text":"好 謝謝委員指教我想關於國內有自製產能的這個部分我們跟國外採購的部分我們要把它分清楚那國內自製產能的部分我們一定會有嚴格的要求這樣子好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166444","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166444","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906ba91faa2f40446a7e3a1989ac581c228079fed764ce25238135377653bbc0bde5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:12:39 - 11:30:04","影片長度":"00:17:25","會議時間":"2025-12-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21 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謝謝主席我想這個國防預算的支出是國內最大項的支出我們還是要讓國人知道到底發生了什麼事情好 那我們麻煩部長好 謝謝部長請顧部長"},{"start":312.69,"end":325.523,"text":"謝謝國防部長你們的報告也有提到說其實你們是經得起公開監督的啦所以我們才會說我們用一個公開監督的方式來處理我建議委員不要查五年啦你應該是查過去二十年好了"},{"start":325.683,"end":343.872,"text":"好 沒問題 沒問題我們到時候委員會我們20年嘛謝謝你要查的話部長 我也相信部長跟我一樣我們對於國家有忠誠的義務所以我們一定希望把事情釐清那也不要說讓有人背負不白之冤所以把事情釐清我想是你我跟國人都希望的"},{"start":344.512,"end":360.031,"text":"請問一下你們新聞稿有提到押標金3%履約保證金5% 180天內提出輸出許可驗收不合格就解約 沒收保證金這部分是你們這次的報告還有新聞稿有提到的請問是或不是"},{"start":361.409,"end":383.354,"text":"我們會在這個他如果沒有辦法提出輸出許可證明然後之後又沒有辦法提供這一個產地證明原廠製造證明文件然後並且沒有辦法能夠交貨的話那我們就有或者是檢驗沒辦法合格我們就辦理結案付款不合格的部分都辦理退貨由廠商回運原產地"},{"start":386.975,"end":402.882,"text":"這個內容我想大家都知道我只是說這個數據沒有錯但是部長這個採購法的核心是要求政府你用納稅人的錢去找廠商合作重點是要審查廠商的資格是要一開始就要避免有交易的危險"},{"start":404.102,"end":424.971,"text":"所以採購它有兩個很重要的關鍵點我想部長您是律師我是檢察官出身的我們對於採購法都很熟悉我們採購有兩個最重要的關鍵點第一 履約能力第二 進出口經驗跟供應鏈這兩個很重要的關鍵點所以今天你們的新聞稿有提到說這個裝潢公司有營業國際貿易所以符合採購資格這個沒錯吧"},{"start":429.293,"end":456.943,"text":"你們有這樣子講嘛 對不對我們過去二十年來對於外購的這些火藥原物料的採的資格都是如此也就是都具有國際貿易業的資格就都可以但是呢 依據巨額採購的標準5.9億的採購案至少要有十分之一的財力證明啊這家廠商的資本額只有一千九百萬不到三分之一那連你說的百分之五的危機是兩千九百五十萬都賠不出來那這個我就覺得就是一個很大的風險啦"},{"start":458.683,"end":480.698,"text":"我們是用押標金跟旅業保證金來督促他預約旅行我跟你講你講到這個就是我等一下要講的啦所以你們認為說廠商只要繳得出押標金旅業保證金期限內能夠提出這些原廠證明我們就認為他有代理人能力嘛對不對如果沒有你們會解約這是你從早上講到現在但是我跟跟部長報告一件事情"},{"start":481.238,"end":496.773,"text":"你這等於是放任廠商拿國防部的合約去跟銀行貸款啊所以他是在做無本生意部長解約跟賠償是兩回事您是律師我覺得這個人不要混淆視聽啦我給一個比喻啦"},{"start":498.018,"end":513.065,"text":"第一個 他可能會發生的 他債權可能沒有辦法實現喔因為你們一直講的是說 他違約我們有什麼處罰 旅遊保證金5% 押標金3% 你一直講這個但是我今天是國防採購欸 我不是要採購一個官司案欸"},{"start":513.965,"end":534.134,"text":"所以我為什麼希望他最後會走到那一步我當然是希望採購能夠順利所以我們採購能夠順利就是要拿到服務稀可證明他沒有辦法拿他就沒辦法履約我們沒有付錢部長我沒有問你所以今天發生幾個問題我點出問題點第一個你找了一家資本額只有1900萬的公司"},{"start":536.095,"end":554.321,"text":"去承包這麼大的案子那這個會發生什麼 就好像騎腳踏車不小心撞到法拉利一樣出事了 對 你可以告我我可能要賠你一千萬但不好意思 我賠不起嘛債權憑證嘛我們念法律人不是最喜歡講我沒有需要告他 我沒收履約保證金履約保證金他已經繳在那裡啦"},{"start":555.421,"end":580.262,"text":"然後第二個 我跟你講反正他今天不管發生了什麼事情我搞不定 我賠不了 那我就宣告倒閉就好我就再講一次嘛 不管他有沒有宣告倒閉我默說他履歷保證金就是我違約的時候的處罰嘛部長 部長 麻煩你冷靜一下我再說一次 國防採購我是要保衛國家用不是為了未來找官司用的嘛"},{"start":580.802,"end":604.889,"text":"我的祖宗是要保衛國家不是要找一個以後可以打官司所以我覺得就算打贏官司我們拿到一個債權憑證或是我們沒收了他的押標金意義在哪裡部長可以不要插嘴嗎部長所以我今天就覺得第一個我們可能拿到的只是他債權憑證"},{"start":606.549,"end":620.948,"text":"第二個會有戰備空窗啊對不對如果說今天你說可以解約嘛對不對好那我們買炸藥是為了備戰欸不是為了打官司欸初次解約有什麼用戰備還是發生真空啊"},{"start":621.348,"end":639.455,"text":"那我在乎的是這個點嘛錢不錢是小事但是他可能會產生一個戰備的空窗這就是為什麼我們在採購的時候尤其對於巨額的採購我們設定很多條件嘛因為國家是希望採購能夠順利成功而不是希望未來可以去打官司打贏我想這個"},{"start":640.795,"end":663.8,"text":"這點我非常贊同所以我們就是開放開放所有的廠商重點就在於他絕標後一定要拿到輸出稀可證明啊時機是零今年進口也不到1600萬根本就違反巨額採購的標準因為你至少要2.36億要有五分之二的軍火交易經驗嘛但是他是零所以"},{"start":664.62,"end":693.488,"text":"如果今天喔 他是廠商是拿了國防部的合約去跟銀行抵押借錢繳押標金 保證金 這個叫做融資這不叫做實質的財力那我們的採購法為什麼一直希望來標的公司要有實質的財力就是不希望他到時候兩手一攤 我公司倒閉就沒事了國家還是希望一個非常良好的廠商來標因為我們希望每一個標都能夠順利 軍火能夠拿到所以啊"},{"start":695.526,"end":718.592,"text":"再來我想這次的絕標公告裡面有提到原產地是中華民國那我以為我看到了這個字眼我覺得原產地國別是中華民國那就應該是在中華民國生產但現在又爆出說是在其他地方可能印度可能美國那我就搞不清楚了這個是席產地嗎還是這個是詐欺這我就搞不懂了 地方嘛"},{"start":720.353,"end":740.392,"text":"會不會說事後解約然後這個所謂的我們嚴格審查機制其實是讓空國公司是不是全身而退這是把風險丟到第一線的過去然後我再跟你說因為我自己辦公室的一個助理女生她小孩差不多當兵的年紀她最近每天都很擔心她看到的是一個"},{"start":741.809,"end":760.448,"text":"我們看到新聞說原本好像是差不多8.24億的一個一個標案後來廠商有5.93億標下來看似替國家省了錢但是我們以前看過採購案的人都會覺得這種異常的低標將本求利的時代它會不會意味著偷工減料那我沒有下定論我說我會擔心這個點"},{"start":762.233,"end":779.793,"text":"那我今天這個炸藥 要嘛會不會是不穩定所以我們的子弟兵 我們的軍人拿到會不會容易有危險這第一個 第二個他會不會有不急發的問題那他在面對敵人的時候如果無法急發 無法完成任務這也是風險嘛"},{"start":780.914,"end":808.819,"text":"所以如果今天這個東西它這麼低價搶下來會不會有偷工減料 會不會有劣質炸藥要嘛不穩定 要嘛過於穩定無法集發這都是我們擔心的 這也都會影響到國家的安全那我想 你們講到這個國內無產能但是總是跟你們公告的東西產地要中華民國不一樣嘛那我們念法律就是看資料我一資料一看我也搞不懂為什麼你們講的跟原產地國別這個差距這麼遠"},{"start":811.144,"end":817.662,"text":"這個真的很奇怪所以我想說這個會不會是代表說這個公告只是刑事就國防部那一定要給誰就給誰"},{"start":820.152,"end":842.879,"text":"那個公告的欄位是因為在決標公告的時候我們沒有先讓他們提供產地來源等到後來得標商提供產地的證明資料以後我們就會更正決標的公告關於有關產地的資訊第三個公司的財力證明在哪裡我想我們必須要知道這個要跟各位報告"},{"start":845.04,"end":860.642,"text":"民進黨執政九年 國防預算翻三倍我當然是全力支持國防我一定支持我們要保衛我們的國土我們要對抗任何一個外來的政權或任何一個國家我們都要與你對抗我也絕對挺警察軍人 消防這些人我絕對挺到底"},{"start":861.323,"end":881.314,"text":"但是我們光預算漲三倍特別預算1.5兆就讓財力不足沒有交易經驗的公司去跨進來去能夠吃到甚至有人講說15億的開口合約這時候我們就會想說到底這個錢是拿來強化戰力還是餵養特定的廠商這是我們一直在擔心的"},{"start":882.194,"end":904.29,"text":"那剛剛部長確實有提到本案設定有違約金那其實我們看到了我們跟美國買F16V幾千億捧去了沒有飛機沒有違約金錢在美國生利息那今天好不容易國內的廠商我們可以罰了卻找了一家資本額只有1900萬的公司一旦違約以他的資本額連5%你們訂的5%他都賠不起他5%已經繳了嘛所以"},{"start":909.602,"end":938.35,"text":"很多都是貸款的啦他5%的違約金已經繳在我們手上了嘛但是呢 部長你剛講的很威啦就有違約金 有解約 有求償 每一句話都有印但是我擔心的還是那個點第一個 小事情是罰不到這個是小事喔 小到不能再小事第二個 軍火拿不到這是我擔心的我們開這個表案是為了國防 為了保家衛國而不是為了他做不到以後我們再來跟他司法訴訟"},{"start":940.247,"end":959.385,"text":"我還是一樣支持國軍支持到底但我不想讓我們國人的血汗錢送到特定空殼廠商的口袋裡面那我也呼籲說國軍的弟兄姊妹只要看到這種類似的案子有任何懷疑都一定要勇敢站出來因為這不是扯國家後腿不是扯國軍後腿這在保護自己的生命那我跟部長報告我剛剛所提到"},{"start":960.126,"end":976.039,"text":"部長 實國家奉陸因中國家之事實國家奉陸因中國家之事我做過24年的公務員 我很清楚這個道理我們對國家都有忠誠義務我也相信你也很清楚這一點所以我們 好不好 我們把這個"},{"start":977.578,"end":999.37,"text":"我們搞清楚是怎麼回事那請國防部能夠站在一個協助大家釐清問題的那個角度而不是護航的角度我們把東西弄清楚讓國人知道國防部真的是認認真真在做採購我想大家會對於國防部將來的各項採購或特別預算會更加的信任更加的支持好不好我們一起做到這件事情謝謝部長"},{"start":1000.081,"end":1005.227,"text":"委員看起來都是只是在自己做自己的發言的內容部長你每次都講這種話我跟你講部長你每次都在講這種話你要嘛說你講的都不是事實你這個沒根據但是不是事實在哪裡沒有根據在哪裡你也不講嘛我剛講的東西"},{"start":1016.419,"end":1039.169,"text":"我剛剛講的東西 請問哪一個錯他履約 他只有1900萬的資本額 哪裡錯你們違約金5%是到2000多萬 哪裡錯那我要求的說 採購重點是國防拿得到的東西賠錢是小事 這哪裡錯 我都不知道這到底錯在哪裡 採購法的重點是你一直在講履約保證金 那我一直在重複履約保證已經繳了 你有聽進去嗎繳了也不足以顧及我們國家的安全 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166441","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166441","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906952a96a3543a7552e3a1989ac581c2286697ca1ee740c94b38f9d5c79002bdd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"12:51:08 - 12:57:34","影片長度":"00:06:26","會議時間":"2025-12-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21 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超市賣雞蛋跟我們現在的福麥賣火藥變成這幾年執政黨的三大奇案"},{"start":137.153,"end":152.149,"text":"的一個案子那這當中的時候都有一個很重要的一個點都強調說他們符合基本上面的一個商業登記所以我這邊的時候我想請教一下部長就是說我們國防部在審標的時候就只看他的公司登記跟價格"},{"start":153.59,"end":169.755,"text":"對於軍火的原料是不是沒有特別去看他是不是有實質軍工能力或者是經驗都不去看這個部分嗎委員報告因為這個就是一個代理進口所以我才會講過去20年來我們您剛有問到說RDXRDX我們有買過B炸藥我們出了B炸藥我們買過這個班萊特傳火藥等等那我們也有買過這個發射藥等等我們所有相關的廠商資格我們都採公開招標"},{"start":182.439,"end":195.767,"text":"廠商的資格20年來都是如此他之所以要如此主要的原因就是因為他的重點是在於他能不能取得輸出許可的正義我們的意思是從合約來做控制"},{"start":200.35,"end":222.382,"text":"那我到特別提到的一個情況就是為什麼我請那個經濟部上來的一個原因就是因為比方說你剛剛提到說全部都符合這相關的規定可是因為民眾的觀感很差你知道嗎就是一個就是賣小吃店的可以賣快篩現在一個在做裝修的他也可以賣火藥那大家都覺得原來"},{"start":224.366,"end":245.678,"text":"本來大家都覺得軍火商應該是有相當大一個門檻可是我們現在發現我們可以這麼輕而易舉的扮演一個軍火商的一個角色這個其實是所以我的意思應該他營業項目要寫個軍火商嗎這個部分就是我想問一下那個經濟部的部分針對比方說目前我提到這幾個案子的時候呢大家都提到了一個商業登記的一個問題"},{"start":247.179,"end":276.58,"text":"那就表示商業登記這邊的時候感覺是非常的寬鬆的一個情況讓大家都可以親而一起踩進來那我在想說因為火藥這部分跟我們的國防的一個安全軍力特別有關係所以我在想說我們對於整個軍工原料的一個項目是不是會有一個特別的一個限制而不是現在你只要是一個能夠有國際貿易商有能夠進出口化學原料就可以來做這樣的一個軍火的一個相關的一個動作"},{"start":277.601,"end":300.08,"text":"跟委員報告我們在營業登記項目的話如果他不是許可行業他都可以自行來做登記因為這個樣子是讓我們相關的資訊能夠更透明化所以RDS像這樣子這麼重要的高爆的導彈原料的時候它也是一個就是基本上你只要能夠取得基本上就可以輕易進口的狀態"},{"start":301.201,"end":319.797,"text":"但是它在輸入的時候我們在海關稅則有特別的規定它一定要經過經濟部的許可才可以進口那我們對於許可的話要做相關文件的查核過去的其他類別的國防部相關的產品也是"},{"start":320.879,"end":335.401,"text":"這樣的程序來進行的過去20年來所有相關這些火藥的進口也都是如此因為它是屬於要依照限制性貨品輸入許可管制品項要依經濟部定班的貨品輸入管理辦法取得進口的同意文件"},{"start":335.942,"end":341.383,"text":"部長你把過去這十年我們有相關的一個火藥你覺得是類似的火藥的進口的一個相關的資料包括進口的廠商他們各自職的條件都給我一份資料因為我想要知道說這樣的一個裝修公司的一個能夠去賣火藥您竟然會覺得它是一個我想只要是公開的資料我們都會願意購沒問題因為這基本上如果是公開的採購應該都會有"},{"start":359.667,"end":381.453,"text":"我想知道過去這十年的時候我們國防部的相關的一個火藥的一個採購都是這麼樣子的輕鬆那麼不同的領域的都可以跨界斜槓進來做這樣的一個軍火的一個買賣交易嗎所以我想知道有這完整的一個資料請部長之後再給我一個完整的資料好不好我們給您二十年的資料好的 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怎樣的去處理這樣子營養午餐的這個廚餘的問題嗎"},{"start":134.654,"end":153.359,"text":"謝謝委員因為其實彰化我們上禮拜四跟彰化各縣市都有開會那彰化環保局大概是目前整體是沒問題但是他們那個老是送的部分他們很快就做一些修正那現在彰化有一個情況是因為養豬的縣府其實也主動說不要都不要"},{"start":155.9,"end":172.368,"text":"所以基本上县府我所知道的环保局有协助他们说原来的养猪的清运业者转型成清除业来解决短暂的衔接的问题所以他们正在做这个事情但是这个可能还有一点点时间我们希望越短越好"},{"start":174.41,"end":189.766,"text":"其实我是觉得说金钱要快一点要不然这个储余的问题确实是一个很大的压力真的是很大的压力再来就是说如果现在成本都提高了这个清运的成本都提高了"},{"start":190.186,"end":215.227,"text":"那南寶就是說未來會亂倒這個有可能發生可能就是會亂倒倒到那個深山那個山谷底下我之前在這個質詢台上面也有特別提到就是說有一些廢棄物就是被亂倒在那個深山裡面的山谷就直接倒下去那如果現在儲雨的這個清運的成本又提高的話南寶未來這個儲雨也是會被亂倒"},{"start":216.508,"end":221.446,"text":"所以我希望就是說環境部跟地方政府針對這一部分應該要有一個"},{"start":222.665,"end":247.917,"text":"更明確的一個方式廚餘的一個處理方式那這個不要不要再有第二次的對環境的第二次的一個傷害也跟委員報告我在很多次我大概有三次的場合都拜託縣市首長還有六都的首長一定要嚴防這個亂到的問題因為這個執行是他們在執行那這個他們也都說沒問題他們會加緊來處理那當然啦我是覺得"},{"start":248.777,"end":275.539,"text":"我們如果照過去因為我們原來每年這個平均是一天是2100噸那現在是因為這個疫情的關係除疫情等於降到1700表示我們有進步的空間所以如果說我們源頭如果真的在落實減量甚至我們的這個團散是不是可以做得更好吃讓小朋友吃光光不要三成都變成廚餘變成去餵豬變成我們去化的難題這個都是我們可能在源頭管理就可以做的地方"},{"start":276.159,"end":293.93,"text":"這個部分我們近期也會提出說更強力的或是更積極的這個食食或食農教育那這個是跨部會我們會來做那也希望委員給我們一些建議這個部長你剛剛講到重點就是營養午餐很多學生會覺得說營養午餐不好吃"},{"start":295.25,"end":319.764,"text":"營養可是不好吃所以差不多三成左右就變成廚餘所以我覺得剛剛部長提到就是說應該也要跨部會去協助是不是能夠讓營養午餐更好吃當然好吃也要兼顧營養今天很可惜就是教育部沒有派人來所以我希望說未來這個部分應該我覺得如果說可以讓營養午餐更美味的話"},{"start":320.865,"end":344.663,"text":"其实我觉得这个厨余应该可以减少或者是能够更精准的怎么去计算每个学生他的这个量是多少让这个厨余能够减少我觉得这个应该可以更仔细的去计算我觉得最重要的是让营养午餐变好吃其实我们看到日本有一部电影它就是"},{"start":347.445,"end":360.395,"text":"讓廚師把營養午餐變好吃我覺得這個真的是跨部會要去討論的一件事情其實如果可以把源頭減量我覺得多多少少對廚餘的區劃確實是有很大的幫助"},{"start":364.218,"end":382.021,"text":"對 因為我也問了很多的學校特別是中小學那他們告訴我說很難因為要營養就不好吃要好吃就不營養但是我也問到一些學校它的廚餘量很少的所以我們現在會把好的案例讓大家都知道"},{"start":382.981,"end":409.601,"text":"如果說因為這個事情發生其實在10月11月的時候我都有打電話給政部長請教育部預作準備我們未來也會跟教育部來討論說如何解決這個問題因為廚餘在台例如說以我上禮拜去桃園桃園一天的團扇就40噸全國大概300噸這個量實在太大所以我就提醒教育部一定要來解決這個問題不然的話他以後就要編經費去處理廚餘的問題"},{"start":412.283,"end":424.174,"text":"部長 我想請教因為今天教育部沒人來我再請教就是說其實學校的團善業者他們原本用餐車把營養午餐載到學校現在目前的狀況是"},{"start":425.851,"end":444.186,"text":"他們可能租不到廚餘車處理廚餘的車子所以有的就直接用餐車又載廚餘載到固定的點像這樣子的話其實會有一個衛生的問題我覺得這個應該也是環境部跟地方政府大家要再去討論的這個餐車不應該再去載廚餘"},{"start":448.911,"end":468.33,"text":"我觉得这个会有一个卫生安全的这个问题我觉得这一点要再去考虑一下另外我想请教就是说环境部目前就是提供这个厨余焚化补贴听说是只有到今年年底年底对就到年底那未来呢"},{"start":469.127,"end":497.314,"text":"未來的話其實也不知道我們如果要真的要廚餘減量要其實廚餘跟我們一般餐廳的垃圾都是一樣他要處理的費用的我認為我們不能夠補貼這個是一個道義跟責任這個造成食物浪費這是每個人的責任本來就應該有價的但是這個大家不習慣如何做得更好我們目前也在討論做這個事情可能要加大讓大家知道體會的一個力道"},{"start":498.474,"end":519.304,"text":"所以我覺得這個如果只有補貼到今年的話那明年我覺得會是一個很大的問題基本上家戶沒有受影響因為家戶都是清潔隊在收的沒有影響主要是餐廳餐廳跟團散那這個部分呢因為他們現在還是可以未租"},{"start":519.924,"end":549.279,"text":"所以目前未來明年沒有問題但是可能後年就是另外一個壓力可是以彰化彰化你像這個珍珠的這個部分就是幾乎沒有跟你們申請就是珍珠的那個設備嘛的補助嘛那像這樣子的話彰化就進廚餘養豬了那所以這個就是會有一個問題對 等於是彰化的餐廳業者他可能是提早會遇到這個可能的這個廚餘量他就必須要努力的減少不然的話會變成他的一個成本"},{"start":551,"end":564.706,"text":"對 所以我覺得說未來這個廚餘 我覺得真的是很頭痛的事情再就是說廚餘處理的價格會往上提那可能第一個會壓縮到整個營養午餐的這個費用"},{"start":565.966,"end":592.022,"text":"因为目前也跟委员报告目前厨余的这个处理大概是一顿大概可能是三千块到五千块左右有的便宜一点如果我们未来如果各种的新的方式可以起来的话希望可以往下降但是也因为有这样的这个价格存在也让我们这个所谓的厨余的处理的业者会越来越多所以我们是这样在看这个问题但是我必须说大家一开始现在这个时间要转型期间有一点不能适应"},{"start":592.602,"end":616.974,"text":"那部長再來就是說我們廚餘怎麼讓它變成有價值的就是剛剛委員有提到就是說把它轉成飼料我覺得這個也是一個方式啦另外就是說我們之前在委員會的時候我有帶各位去看這個黑水盲那彰化目前碰到一個問題就是黑水盲這個處理的地方很臭所以"},{"start":617.774,"end":643.77,"text":"民眾抗議連續在上禮拜跟上上禮拜就附近的居民就抗議其中就包括我們上一次委員會有去看的其中一場就是這個狀況所以我覺得說未來如果用黑水盲來處理廚餘的話尤其是現在可能原本處理這個廚餘的量沒有那麼多那現在可能就因為禁止養豬了所以他們處理的量更多那這個中間可能"},{"start":644.511,"end":659.288,"text":"沒有處理好臭味就亂飄肆意所以變成說住在附近的居民就受不了然後連續有兩場就是在黑水盲的這個場連續有兩場一場在河美地區一場在鹿港"},{"start":660.309,"end":688.848,"text":"就是鹿港和美那个地方然后另外一场在北斗那边所以就是民众抗议所以我觉得说针对这一部分我们也希望未来就是说不论是做成堆肥或做成饲料或者是用黑水芒来处理厨余我觉得一方面就是不要再造成环境的二度伤害那也不要让民众觉得说这个就是一个闲物设施那我就不希望它就设在我家旁边我觉得这部分应该我们应该也要好好再去"},{"start":690.109,"end":708.565,"text":"輔導一下我們原本覺得說這個是處理廚餘很好的一個方式可是你在前端廚餘回收回來之後這個還是會有發酵會收水的那個味道所以如果前面沒有處理好的話會造成居民 附近居民"},{"start":709.506,"end":729.367,"text":"就會受不了我整天就是聞到那個收水的那個味道所以我覺得說部長針對這部分我們希望這個中央就是環境部這邊是不是可以更加積極如果說他今天是用這個黑水盲來處理廚餘的話是不是在前端的部分這個意味我覺得應該也要處理"},{"start":729.687,"end":758.518,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為這個異位的處理其實我也看過一些黑水盲的業者其實沒有什麼味道的所以那個業者是不是可能經驗上面或各方面那我們再去了解看是不是可以給他們一些建議的協助這個我們可以來做那因為這個東西其實黑水盲其實各種任何一種它可能都會有一點點味道出來但是如何去把那個異位對附近居民的不舒適感降低我認為這個時候我們可以來做一些協助"},{"start":759.378,"end":779.625,"text":"如果可以再把這個異味降低或者是幾乎沒有異味的話其實我覺得這個是一個很好的方式就是說它處理完之後它的那個黑水盲的糞便或什麼還可以當成肥料我覺得這是一個非常好的方式可是你在前端如果沒有處理好的話這真的是一個讓大家很羨慕的一個地方那再拜託部長好 謝謝我們來努力 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166399","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166399","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906efa3f0f11e039a0f908415f8fac51cd3e8e52b0719441b973eb26cf665c94cb75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:47:04 - 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請彭部長議員好 額部長早 今天我要給你一個很大的肯定 你在核電重啟環評的這一題上 被媒體說管太多可是我覺得你管得剛剛好 因為核能"},{"start":21.65,"end":37.309,"text":"安全跟環境事跨部會跟世代影響的一個議題沒有人沒有任何部會都能夠去當局外人部長 三個月在野黨把設置後不會產生污染"},{"start":38.05,"end":59.329,"text":"物質的光電板在環評法直接加嚴那以同一套的對環境影響更為嚴謹的標準來看的話那面對1984年開始運轉40年在國家公園周邊的河山要重啟的話還有核廢料的問題我相信環評應該要更嚴謹如果依據光電板現在設置環評的邏輯的話在野黨應該要支持"},{"start":62.652,"end":84.346,"text":"所以我請部長講清楚超過年限已除役的核電廠要重設環境部的立場是什麼那輻射影響評估是核安會的責任但影響環境的專業在你這邊而且核能會的主委也說依法應由台電來請環境部評估那部長環境部能提供什麼樣專業建議台電有沒有找你開會了"},{"start":85.186,"end":112.964,"text":"包委員這個台電是目的事業機關我不用找他開會我是直接跟河安會的主委我們有通過電話未來的分工那目前我們也跟委員報告這個還要延伸因為他們是核輻射的一個專業那對環境影響是我們在這邊的專業所以我們現在有在討論說未來要如何分工要來如何處理那目前因為這個他的許可最重要是他他要必須要負擔更多的責任這樣好"},{"start":114.305,"end":123.569,"text":"部長你先請經濟部代表協助我釐清一則新聞我也知道你今天事實上不是來次長也不是來部長來署長可是還是要來講這件事因為媒體已經報導出來說期待核電加速運轉的民間團體轉述轉述你經濟部經濟部認為核電廠再運轉只是原有機組的安檢換修不涉及環評"},{"start":139.756,"end":164.604,"text":"那我想請經濟部應該自己要去對媒體或者是今天在這邊講清楚啊超過40年原始設計的核電廠廚藝在運轉真的只有安檢換修而已嗎這已經是登在媒體上經濟部自己有沒有去看要去回應啊如果他講錯的不對的你們要不要回應第二個問題是部分民間團體說經濟部把廚藝後再啟用要不要環評類比火力發電廠研議耶"},{"start":166.385,"end":192.98,"text":"我就要問活力會產生污染可是會產生核廢料嗎不會嘛那有沒有核廢料風險評估的災害規模應該差很多吧你們認為可以直接類比的理由是什麼不懂就是說怎麼可以去類比我們的活力發變這兩種不太同的一個等級另外除以後再運轉法律上到底算不算直接演繹是不是涉及重新授權你們要說明"},{"start":193.52,"end":210.218,"text":"我會這樣問是因為我看到經濟部我們新修訂的核管法依新修訂的核管法及其辦法展開核一核二核三現況的一個評估那核電廠除役後要再啟動更複雜了那安檢應該只是第一步所以我要問最後一句"},{"start":211.164,"end":224.923,"text":"經濟部現在經濟部是要等核安會提出完整需求才要來做後續的要不要還平的一個評估嗎我相信你現在沒辦法回答請你們再回去經濟部如果媒體報導的錯誤民間訴說的是錯誤"},{"start":228.287,"end":249.35,"text":"為什麼不回應本來今天想讓你們在這邊回應清楚請你們要嘛對媒體會另外一個把針對我剛剛問的這幾題那麻煩回覆到我們辦公室我覺得如果不正確的真的都要回應報告委員因為那個民團他不是很懂得環評的定義啦那他用這樣的一個比喻是不對的"},{"start":250.411,"end":260.479,"text":"是 可是為什麼 他說他轉述經濟部那經濟部為什麼都沒有回應呢所以我才想說今天有這個機會讓經濟部要做好好的回應那麻煩我們的署長請回 謝謝部長 賴總統的那個"},{"start":269.814,"end":288.949,"text":"也就是核能的三個核心安全無虞核廢料有解社會共識我認為你最近的發言就是在落實這三個核心因為現實是核二甘思的儲存潮要建制延拓了十年到現在還卡著台灣現在的制度很魔幻"},{"start":289.87,"end":315.888,"text":"要除役的核電廠要還平再多用20年的反而不用光電只要敏感區位就要還平那麼核三要再運轉的話不能只是修法說那我要延長20年就好了沒有制度配套也不能說被說成說只是行政單位的安檢換修就好我認為法規未盡之處的話反而要更積極作為所以部長我請你先做簡單"},{"start":317.081,"end":342.967,"text":"從環境單位你是一個環境部的最大的核廢料到此時此刻有最終處置的解方嗎目前我所知道是有些國家是開始有但是很多國家還是用乾式儲存槽放在那個地方那這個議題呢我們現在環境部也在研議當中就是說也剛剛謝謝委員剛剛提到的就是說因為很多的國家的環境部是管"},{"start":343.487,"end":363.081,"text":"核能安全的後端的處理那我們環境部是沒有這樣的機構例如說日本的環境省他就連核安的部分也管他大概有一千多人在裡面韓國也管然後很多的國家有環評的是他的核安就在他的裡面你現在完全還沒有有一些環境可是現在要講核三"},{"start":363.861,"end":378.479,"text":"所以接著兩個重點就從第一從你主管的環評法來看的話對核電廠除役後再啟動研議把它理解為新的權利授予能源設施設置的重新授權是否合一"},{"start":379.019,"end":402.208,"text":"我們正在演繹因為從這個字面解釋我同意委員的觀點但是我們現在環評法因為環評法的確是把光電拉的非常的嚴可是對於這種新的沒有那麼的嚴對 所以這個其實產生了一些落差所以我們的確在演繹第二個民間團體的對法規疑問是核管法的第六條第四項說運轉執照換發準用第五條第一項"},{"start":402.808,"end":425.29,"text":"也就是准用建廠審核的要件其中包含環境保護跟生態保育的影響要合乎相關法律那照這個邏輯運轉執照換發准用的建廠執照的一個規定就應該提出經環境部認可的環評的相關資料部長 如果這樣的法規解釋是否合宜那環境部要怎麼去規劃上訴的一個環評資料"},{"start":428.132,"end":455.94,"text":"對 這個我也有想讀過的確我們是內部有討論說這樣的一個可能的問題然後比較各個國家因為我們沒有重新這個環評重啟要這個核能重啟要環評的一個經驗所以這個部分我們未來會跟核安會來討論說哪一個算是我們這邊的哪一個是他們那邊的所以最後我還是要強調你提出來的政策環評是建立社會共識不可少的一步讓意見能夠公開充分表達"},{"start":457.059,"end":470.458,"text":"核電從起牽扯到風險不確定利益衝突還有世代正義的問題所以所有可能的影響跟真實的風險都必須要被評估被辯論被監督我希望提醒部長這一塊"},{"start":472.13,"end":487.117,"text":"那部長基隆這起廢油偷牌的事件已經影響到基隆民生用水我有兩個問題要請教第一個問題是報導說業者長期用廠內那個油污水分離"},{"start":487.857,"end":509.654,"text":"把分離後的還有污染成分的無味透明的廢水偷排到基隆河還對外招攬生意五年不法所得超過五千萬請問部長既然是無味透明但有污染成分為什麼一直沒被偵測到這次是業者失誤才爆出來嗎你認為這個問題出在哪邊未來要怎麼去處理"},{"start":510.795,"end":525.038,"text":"因為這個抽水的這個供水區域的上游區的管理是基隆市政府所以他們其實應該要平常要積極的對於供水可能的上游因為旁邊的那個工業區還蠻多的其實他們應該我們有請他們一定要"},{"start":526.539,"end":551.205,"text":"這個強化這個稽查的頻率那這次有幾家他是自己排那這個是罪證確鑿被檢察官這個抓到所以這個的權責是基隆市政府可是為什麼偵查不到呢就是他竟然有污染成分而且事發地點就在淨水廠周邊所謂污染成分到底是什麼你們有沒有掌握他們的技術以及過去排放污水的這個污染的這個成分的這個東西對人體的危害是什麼"},{"start":551.465,"end":570.371,"text":"有 這個其實後來一開始有兩家被開罰因為他沒有在列管他並沒有來做申報所以已經被開罰了那這家主要是後來我們透過一些跟檢察官那個細節我就不能對外說但是檢察官跟我們合作在一起有一個平台就主動去偵查到他"},{"start":571.067,"end":590.888,"text":"可是部長這家是累犯前次偷牌只罰五萬五這次是因為上新聞才準備重罰到千萬我問的是我們的裁罰的裁量怎麼會落差這麼的大你們去年去年底修正發布了違反水污染防治法"},{"start":591.849,"end":612.089,"text":"那個罰還的額度跟裁罰基準也有點才記點的一個副表那很完備但也相對複雜請問部長從去年到現在環境部有沒有檢視各縣市是否依這套標準準則來做裁罰你們要怎麼去協助地方做那個裁量又怎麼樣去做後續的那個檢視啊"},{"start":612.93,"end":632.407,"text":"好 包委員這個其實這裡面因為這次的水務法也要靠地方環保局在做所以因為我們剛過完那樣的東西未來我們會跟地方再去針對這個財閥的量子因為全台灣不是只有基隆這個有風險還有很多地方所以這個我們會來我覺得部長不然就會變成上新聞兩千萬沒上新聞五萬五"},{"start":633.347,"end":650.896,"text":"這不是制度該有的做法會後也請部長提供相關資料讓我們知道你們這一年來怎麼去監督檢視各縣市是否用這個裁罰基準來做裁罰部長今年我們面對到的是天災人禍下的巨量的廢棄物的處置"},{"start":651.736,"end":676.57,"text":"我很肯定你願意面對也在想辦法但這幾個月我都聽到的答案幾乎都是一樣的量能不足 招標不順所以只能先擺著可是這不是解決 是拖著而已我先問進度跟時程 請部長直接回答風災後的實棉屋跟太陽能板台中臨時處理的廚餘掩埋目前進度到哪裡 能不能最終解決"},{"start":677.89,"end":691.555,"text":"太陽光電板沒有問題已經已經全面那實棉烏瓦呢那實棉烏瓦已經都進到了一個程序當中大概兩萬多吨那台中臨時處理的那個廚餘掩埋呢廚餘掩埋它已經不進廚餘掩埋了它現在全部進去焚化"},{"start":692.694,"end":708.645,"text":"那我最關心的還是花蓮光復鄉幾十萬噸的災後淤泥跟廢棄物現在難以篩分無法招標無力清運部長你們有沒有預估最糟的情況下對環境的衝擊是什麼到底要怎麼做"},{"start":710.106,"end":736.02,"text":"這個最重要是因為東部的這樣的業者處理的量能的確不足那我們現在雖然爭取到這個特別的條例的預算但是真的要去執行現在還沒有開始執行但是因為這個可能要跟地方來做合作那委員說到的問題我們現在正在面對當中所以現在我們也希望更好的業者能夠來協助來處理這個事情那請環境部把這幾項的處置的進度跟現況給我一個比較清楚的說明的資料第二步"},{"start":736.74,"end":759.242,"text":"我要問制度面 事業廢棄物 進一般家用的垃圾 焚化爐現在的垃圾的熱值提升那焚化爐老舊 縣市調度困難 最後還是垃圾堆著 風險只會累積所以我要具體要求是說我們的源頭減量不能再用後端處理落差到22倍了這是過往的平均的數字"},{"start":760.163,"end":770.564,"text":"所以請問部長明年度就算預算能不能省還不確定的狀況底下但是你們編列源頭減量跟後端處理的經費比例是多少會不會改善"},{"start":771.09,"end":795.035,"text":"包委其實他這樣的說法因為他不了解我們的政府的預算因為我們還有資源回收的一個費如果把那個算進去的話我們早就超過很多了啦所以這個部分我們可以再跟委員再做一個說明或者不然源頭不管之的話末端永遠燒不完那這題就麻煩你們到時候再給我相關的資料那我們也希望你整個的預算源頭的減量的配置跟經費配置都要給我好謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166398","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166398","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906904d043bf065bd1f908415f8fac51cd3e8e52b0719441b9747990b0cb07845b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:33:03 - 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那請部長看一下這張圖那我這樣問的理由是因為全國每天除以產生是2115噸是加戶的593噸加上養豬外的其他利用除以791再加上事業731噸但是2026年底 明年底"},{"start":63.3,"end":75.092,"text":"這個環境部的總設施量才有1720噸也就是說在過一整年之後才可能達到2119噸那麼是否這個2027年累積的所有的這個廚餘還有多的395噸廚餘就必須靠焚化跟掩埋了"},{"start":81.758,"end":94.602,"text":"那但是現在這個政府這個部分這個焚化跟掩埋還是量能不足你現在的數字是284那我估計每天還多了這個100萬噸100噸對不起100噸那你要怎麼處理呢能夠繼續燒嗎有辦法繼續燒嗎好 鮑委員那個我們其實針對這個問題有焚化爐到底能不能燒像日本的家戶廚餘是全部到焚化爐燒的那我們其實目前有經過專家評估過如果處理妥當大概最多就10%"},{"start":109.966,"end":124.112,"text":"部長我在強調這是你們的報告你是說你只有284那現在我算一算就是還不夠嘛所以一定還有這個沒有辦法處理的那我為什麼在意這個焚化跟掩埋呢因為焚化會有大躍興的疑慮嘛我之前質詢你你有說廚餘只要水瀝乾就不會有這個大躍興問題但每個地方政府真的都做得到嗎事實上不是如此因為台中市上禮拜才開始買這個租用這個廚餘脫水機啦"},{"start":136.858,"end":140.082,"text":"去除水分表示說之前沒有辦法完全這個脫乾其他這個地方當然也一樣這是第一個就是這個有關這個焚化的部分第二個掩埋還有高風險因為掩埋現在都在這個郊外地區嘛那還是會可能有野生動物如果你沒有做好這個防護的那個"},{"start":155.101,"end":166.973,"text":"這個措施也是都去翻動啊那翻動他就可能繼續傳播那個病毒這也是這個過去也是民進黨從上到下在攻擊台東市政府的一個說法那我們看到西班牙這一次的那個豬瘟爆發那他的部長加塔隆尼亞說可能是某頭野豬"},{"start":173.36,"end":198.98,"text":"務實至國外這個吸入然後這個污染的這個食物然後引發後續的傳播所以部長您承諾的每個月都會監測焚化爐的這個廚餘的代澳鑫變化量這個措施會持續多久報告委員第一個是野豬的部分我們的因為有些縣市還是有掩埋那這個部分的現在全面加裝電網像台中那個廠就有電網等於是豬去會被電到不會讓他進去"},{"start":201.602,"end":215.611,"text":"那你還有這個在測量上次你承諾的這個嗎我其實是說最近的這一次因為一年的每一個焚化爐要測兩次我那時候是說的是說未來這一個月要他們再多測一次一個月一年兩次太少了吧"},{"start":216.231,"end":242.911,"text":"對 我們會評估 因為也報告委員那個一次喔 也要花20萬啦所以基本上我們會再評估說到底會加次目前我們現在有全面的都叫他們量總共有那個爐子大概幾個 四五十個吧那目前呢 量的結果我們看到一些結果 甚至它因為這個時候要進廚餘所以大家比較小心的去燒所以目前呢 有幾個縣市它的廚餘的代溶性的量比平均值還要低很多"},{"start":243.551,"end":249.06,"text":"我在剛剛你聽你說你覺得用電網就可以全面阻擋這個可能這個也是動物去翻動那個掩埋場的這個部分嗎對目前這個是農業部的那個動保處這個方法看有效嗎他們這個是他們給我們一些建議避免野豬能夠去翻動"},{"start":258.815,"end":265.381,"text":"不等11月豬隻禁運禁載嘛那農業部有說會擴大這個積壓額的供應量但事實上屠宰量受影響為什麼因為過去來當廚餘養豬的動物性肺渣下腳料也就是雞爪等等因為沒有辦法拿去餵豬了所以影響屠宰量那目前也有報導指出未來禁止這個全面這個廚餘養豬的積壓額等這些禽類的這個下腳料要額外有清運處理的話"},{"start":287.239,"end":288.861,"text":"每隻雞至少會漲價10塊錢以上請問農業部就你有跟農業部討論過這件事嗎你可以避免嗎因為物價膨脹大家都有感染那你要繼續讓這些這個雞鴨額等繼續漲價嗎"},{"start":300.106,"end":310.612,"text":"包委員 這個的處理它的去化是農業部他們有一個化製廠在處理不是我們這邊來最後的處理你們要關心就是說因為要處理然後就是變成說你這個費用是上漲的部長請你繼續看這張圖片12月5號環境部的記者會上把家戶處理就是小吃攤 公寓 大樓等處理歸類為不可養豬 這個OK那現在遇到的問題是環境部在簡報上規範分流"},{"start":328.243,"end":350.084,"text":"竟然是讓公寓大樓的廚藝是交由已清業者來處理那麼請問原本跟公寓大樓簽約的那個秉清業者呢只要是合法清除業就是可以部長現在的問題就是說你禁止這個養豬之後那我現在告訴你秉清業者他成本增加很多為什麼因為他現在跟簽約的價格他沒有辦法他會賠錢而且他需要排隊進場"},{"start":352.566,"end":373.103,"text":"他排隊等一下我跟你講排隊三四小時他如果進不了場他還必須找個地方暫時堆置所以他們就跟這個社區大樓說他們沒有辦法去做了因為你的報告就寫你看你這張圖公寓大樓是要已清啊所以他們就把這個當個藉口他們不做了那如果這個公寓大樓又轉到已清去已清說他們沒有辦法接新客戶"},{"start":373.703,"end":393.383,"text":"好那所以現在不是一個社區我現在已經看到很多社區的這個陳情了所以你這個分流從頭到尾都沒有寫秉清那如果真的秉清可以你就把它放上去啊你沒有放上去結果部長你知道放在什麼地方嗎部長非常可笑你看下一頁常見問答那這個重要的問題你寫說值得"},{"start":396.67,"end":409.241,"text":"可是他們問丙親不可以嗎然後你們回答就是說只要合法機構都可以所以甲乙丙親都能夠再廚餘這個地方不是澄清地方欸這個地方是這個民眾的問答你把這個重要問題放在這個地方而且你那寫話這個寫東西很離譜欸都能再廚餘你沒有說再廚餘去焚化爐喔"},{"start":420.391,"end":442.689,"text":"對 那現在就是這樣 部長如果真的是如你說的都可以 合法業者都可以因為美國公益道路他能夠簽約的對象等等是有限的啊那這個情況下是不是這樣子環境部你要嘛就是行文給這個這個清運業者啊不然就是折騰地方政府這個行文給地方人說是可以的不要讓這個秉慶業者拿這個你們的簡報當藉口說他不做了"},{"start":443.089,"end":452.592,"text":"好 謝謝委員 建議這個部分我們上禮拜有兩次跟地方環保局有開過會那這個也做了一個修正今天就會發布出去你要修正啊 你看這麼重要的問題你在簡報上是指定了已清這個是一個嚴重的錯誤那部長現在團善跟餐飲業面臨很大的壓力我先告訴你校園的團善發生什麼事因為他們為了排隊進這個焚化廠我剛剛講的每個要多花三到四小時"},{"start":467.037,"end":496.048,"text":"那如果沒辦法進場 要自己找地方放那除了這個時間成本 還有回收作業混亂之外有些業者因為調不到車 您知道嗎甚至以營養午餐的餐車再廚餘這種食安的疑慮都跑出來了你這個勢必要說小朋友的這個餐食的值餘量啊餐車可以再廚餘嗎因為他沒辦法啦 因為他等不到 他進不去啊他排不到隊啊所以部長 這個原有廚餘這個部分部長請你要務必注意"},{"start":497.129,"end":517.503,"text":"這個不得了 這個是跟食安市是違背的也跟委員報告我們上禮拜針對這個議題也請那個陳理事長跟我們各縣市環保局調那其實各縣市我在這邊都有報表哪個縣市有壓力的我們都知道陳理事長也有另外一個問題我先請教你原來廚餘處理有補貼你是不是要終止還是延長辦理基本上這個是到今年年底因為我們現在是中央應變中心還在開設當中"},{"start":519.164,"end":536.885,"text":"你不補貼OK了 不過就是委託方他成本就增加這成本將會帶動什麼 大概部長你心裡有數喔你剛剛講說陳理事長就餐食食品公會的全聯會理事長他的公司就是這樣他說以輕的報價是每公噸一萬三到一萬四可是你們環境部預期的是八千元啊"},{"start":538.359,"end":565.489,"text":"那差很大啊那這麼多的這個費用那你怎麼處理到最後你不要瘦了小孩子的這個營養餐啊營養午餐啊增加了國人負擔報告委員我也請大家想一件事情就是說我們的所有廚餘就是所有的這個團散公餐有三成變的廚餘這個是我們是不是可以有更好改善的空間那第二個呢是這個的費用會處理我們現在其實我們上禮拜也有跟陳理事長也有到我們的群組跟差很大啊兩個人數字"},{"start":565.929,"end":583.214,"text":"基本上這個不是全台灣都這樣就是有些縣市它的確會遇到一些短時間的一個陣痛我們都在處理當中各縣市都在處理當中當廚藝沒有氣促然後那個沒有去的地方然後它的輕運成本又提高你知道結果就是會有很多跟垃圾山一樣嘛氣質廚藝嘛 就開始出現了"},{"start":584.454,"end":600.852,"text":"基本上任何的製造的垃圾就有一定的成本然後任何的餐廳它本身的垃圾也都說過已經在清除了部長那我在這裡最後談一個也是垃圾引起的問題台南市烏樹林廢棄物佔自償的事它總共燒了十幾天那天你跟我說明天會熄火後來我想想說"},{"start":601.573,"end":626.153,"text":"已經超了差不多了吧那當然你大概預期要熄火了那我像正式就是說環境部要面對這次火災造成的嚴重污染問題請你看畫面你一邊看那我一邊講整個站市長的周圍全部農地也有農民在工作那土地或這個地下水都可能有潛在的代澳新跟多路聯本請問部長環境部預計如何監測代澳新跟多路聯本多久一次"},{"start":627.034,"end":642.836,"text":"這個部分那個台南市環保局他們已經在做了那我們會要求他們把資料帶給我看台南市環保局很有問題等一下我再繼續跟您談就是說你要多久驗一次您覺得要多久驗一次你看到旁邊都是農地啊還有人在耕地然後燒了一塌糊塗燒了十幾天啊"},{"start":644.751,"end":666.803,"text":"這個部分我們會再跟他們做確認因為這個其實上禮拜很努力在第二個問題如果驗出來了你怎麼賠償農民還是要等他們自己去找國賠基本上我們有跟台南市環保局在討論這個事那他們也告訴說他們未來的規劃包含良策等等然後跟地方的在溝通部長還有你現在燒完的我一步一步來燒完的那個灰渣跟廢水你要怎麼處理"},{"start":667.666,"end":688.953,"text":"基本上現在我們都有補原來這個就有一定補助的經費在處理這塊的廢棄物因為台南市政府拿了3.4億的廢棄物處理但那是颱風之後結果這件事情就是台南市環保局他找的地他跟國軍借用的地無償借用的地然後現在超出火了他們不負責所以我上次就問你說那台南市環保局要不要開罰"},{"start":690.151,"end":702.125,"text":"要不要開罰 你叫他自己管就叫他罰自己你要出面啊這個部分他如果是最後的這個火災他台南市政府有責任的話他們就會自己罰自己不是台南市 他這個區長他挑的他拿了政府的補助費3.4億然後他處理結果出事了他沒有責任嗎不要告訴我行政機關沒有責任喔"},{"start":710.758,"end":726.57,"text":"他們等於是說到底失火的原因他不自己放火就沒事嗎不會自己放火啦但是他自己如果說違反了法律他自己要罰自己這個是明確的那另外一個你確定嗎他要自己罰自己當然這個因為他地方的開罰是他們自己我任何協調會記者他都不出現喔好那我要求說這個非常清楚上次有一個那個他們還回答我說要證明有空氣污染請問燒了十幾天還要證明有空氣污染嗎所以部長我要知道台南市環保局什麼時候開罰"},{"start":740.2,"end":763.073,"text":"罰多少錢 然後他提出清運計畫沒有這個是地方的事務 謝謝委員給我們建議我會去了解他們的狀況我們也會去追蹤你敢辦 請問你台南到底有說找私立在保護他部長你敢辦台南市環保局嗎這已經太多累積是慣犯累犯報告委員 全台灣的只要有犯罪的都是我們會處理你說的 你剛剛報告說藍綠白都辦喔那台南市環保局請你盯著他從來不面對民意代表"},{"start":768.036,"end":781.867,"text":"台南市政府是面對台南市議會不是對立法院但是你可以去管啊你身為環境部啊台南市環保局如果做得不當你是否要去處理呢這個我們會努力去跟他們溝通因為他們的監管單位是台南市議會"},{"start":783.086,"end":808.572,"text":"部長你簡直說你在投降嗎沒有沒有我原本不能這樣說每個都有分工都有權責這件事太清楚了他拿了3.4億的行政費用然後他去找了一塊地還無償的我問過國軍無償以後然後這個堆堆得很高堆得很高然後堆得很邊邊然後非常危險然後居民之前就來告訴說會起火燃燒我有告訴過你然後真的燃燒了然後現在你告訴我"},{"start":809.412,"end":828.326,"text":"他們沒有辦法 你只是監督他去處理對 我們會監督你這樣對得起台南市民嗎台南市民是最挺民進黨的你這樣對待他們對嗎我們會密切的去要求他任何的監測報告最後的罰則我們會來處理你報告得非常清楚我希望你要有骨氣要有承擔的勇氣謝謝委員 謝謝部長 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了解好 謝謝那後面有兩個問題我可能請殉斥次次長其他的請回這個採購的問題沒有殉斥次次長"},{"start":410.872,"end":434.452,"text":"无人机是未来作战的一个主要的趋势那不只是无人飞机了所有的无人载台UAV USV UUV水面水下都有我们很多的同仁现在强调的是操作的过程的签证认证那我提出一个建议就是因为不同的载台不同的通讯频宽"},{"start":435.774,"end":459.435,"text":"限制因素这个各军种不一样另外一个呢就是当操作过程中间目前所谓的轻型无人机都是在我们本岛使用那使用的条件下就是发生有事说国土防卫在这个情况下所以我们的ROE就是战备规定的交战规则的授权"},{"start":460.501,"end":468.578,"text":"所謂的簽證並不是說操作手他會操作他就要承擔責任因為有兩種狀況第一個是目標誤判"},{"start":470.387,"end":497.855,"text":"这个责任是由操作手来承担呢还是操作手说我没有办法确认目标因为这种消耗型的我们宁可让它自毁绝对不能达到我们的民间目标或是不能识别那因为通讯频段不同这种出去使用的飞行时间也有限如果国内有它的上一级那上一级就要承担这个责任所以在同时训练操作的技术这个原则下"},{"start":498.615,"end":525.325,"text":"同样在我们的所谓的这个所谓的训练班次啊乃至于到只参对于大型的中大型的无人机ROE这个交战规则责任承担上下授权到某个level不是操作首付全责这个东西是希望要持续精进的另外一个传回来的是目标的"},{"start":526.513,"end":555.56,"text":"图像也好影像传回或是大型的甚至有讯号回来回来呢是你传到上一级单位他跟你使用的是Google的图片呢还是有大区的跟我们陆军作战区的UTM图呢这个在将来在操作训练上都要做整合的精进我们现阶段看到有当然好有比没有好但是有还要持续精进我讲的共同图像包括火鞋的图像"},{"start":556.34,"end":581.822,"text":"战术的图像还有大区的国防部长官看到整个大范围的图像这个目标的标注位置在大图像上要能够显示出来所以这点我提出建议希望大家共同来努力那最后一个议题给部长做参考就是有关军人条新的部分我本席的建议就是我们退伍军人其实他在服役期间承担的责任跟现役是完全一样"},{"start":582.623,"end":602.963,"text":"所有的军人我们讲的军人武德自信仁勇言其实他是牺牲奉猿军人不是职业军人是志业因此退伍跟在职其实他应该是享受同样的待遇这点是不是可以请部长指导一下是不是请资源师先说一下"},{"start":604.932,"end":628.355,"text":"報委員我是志願司司長因為這部分其實本部向來都會重視不管是現役還是退役軍人的一個相關的福利那目前的制度上就是軍公教一體他那個退役軍人的他的調薪的部分是由行政院會同考試院來訂定那他的條件就是說當那個消費者物價指數累計到正負百分之五或者是每四年調整一次目前是一致性的做法"},{"start":630.637,"end":647.168,"text":"當然我們把軍公教放在一起其實是不同的啦那這是不同的定義不同的解釋因為軍人的志業他的犧牲奉獻以及他承擔的風險跟公教人員跟社會上其他的職業團體是完全不一致的我們私下再來做溝通好謝謝謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"166393","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166393","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da759064475d7b1094ba5513d053df696e011f84867b29f5c39eb5e82244cc87e3a1d295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:17:22 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防疫底線不能靠運氣除於本質是廢棄物而不是飼料所以本身第一個防疫優先產業要活所以本席非常肯定現在行政院一個很重要的決策全面禁用除於養豬那當然豬肉是國人最重要的肉品自給率也都達到8成5所以一旦非洲豬瘟全面爆發國產豬停擺"},{"start":41.63,"end":67.348,"text":"供给的缺口可能五成以上租价的飙涨受害的不只是这六十万的养猪从业人口而是全体的消费者所以今天讨论的这个不是环保的小议题其实是台湾猪产业跟人民餐桌的大议题所以这一次的非洲猪瘟是猪农一生的破产风险但是它不该是正策是错的代价"},{"start":67.848,"end":97.208,"text":"所以本席主張應該把現有的行政做法升級為法律義務農業部您在這邊講到全面禁用這個家父廚餘就是全面禁用廚餘現在也不是只有家父廚餘甚至未來在116年往後整個的所謂的專業廚餘廠全部都要退場所以這樣是不是應該把這個承諾寫進飼料管理法呢"},{"start":97.748,"end":122.907,"text":"好 部長你請回應謝謝委員的一個建議就是我們把相關的禁止廚養豬放到飼料管理法是一個方法那現在我們是用動船條例的本身是規定它不能夠做相關的這些廚藝的移動那後續我想我會針對委員的建議看看是不是可以更強烈的直接放到飼料管理法裡面來處理"},{"start":122.967,"end":136.215,"text":"那我覺得應該要直接因為你剛才講的你那個動物那個相關的那個法令只是禁止廚餘的移動但是你全面禁用廚餘的政策那既然是這樣"},{"start":137.577,"end":158.323,"text":"你就是得寫進飼料管理法所以部長您是願意來做研議我想我們回去內部討論如果說寫下去如果說我們現在做的方法效果是一樣的話我們會先做因為進到飼料管理法的話還會進到立法院裡面整個法案的一個審查那可能需要一點時間我們回去再來做相關的一個配套的研究"},{"start":158.723,"end":177.609,"text":"好OK好那廚餘的責任應該回到政府不應該讓8%的豬替全國處理30%的廚餘所以其實依我們高雄為例為了接住禁廚餘的壓力高雄已經把兩座的堆肥廠從每日的8噸拓成為27噸並規劃以BOT的模式來一座"},{"start":182.41,"end":210.928,"text":"興建一座日處理120度的生殖能源廠興建至少也要兩到三年才能真正的扛起現在送去焚化的大部分的廚餘所以在這邊我剛才也看到環境部的報告其實也相對的完整把堆肥掩埋廠即將的在116年退廠然後在生殖能的部分等相關的去化也做了"},{"start":211.368,"end":225.163,"text":"一個量能的提升跟補助所以這一點我就也不要再問下去所以環境部的做法我本席非常的肯定不過我在這邊也要求環境部是不是時間暫停一下我請次長我們請次長"},{"start":231.325,"end":254.544,"text":"好市長針對環境部我這邊要求在明年6月底前這個你是否能提出全國廚餘去化量能跟缺口的報告而且這當中除了再一次的把2025年到2028年全國廚餘產生的量的預估以及各年度堆肥生殖能黑水盲等"},{"start":255.104,"end":270.309,"text":"可能量能與缺口以及各縣市也包含全面停用除以養豬的縣市跨區調度計劃與風險管理也能夠提供給立法院呢可以好 OK 謝謝好 再來我們在針對"},{"start":272.01,"end":289.885,"text":"這邊在好次長你請回部長我看到您的簡報第10頁長城的規劃為兼顧防疫跟營養需求公司協力建構廚餘飼料化體系是否部長您要清楚再說明一下什麼叫做廚餘飼料化"},{"start":290.982,"end":320.765,"text":"我跟委員報告因為廚藝現在目前的再利用大概除了做能源化對核化以外那一個非常重要的就是廚藝如果經過工廠化相關的把水濾乾成為規格化它也是可以變成一個飼料的一個產品就像日本的那個eco feed這樣的一個方式所以我們也曾經到日本去看過去觀摩過所以未來的我們會協助目前的一個已經有的苗栗的珍珠中心裡面我們去協助他把它變成一個飼料化的"},{"start":320.845,"end":344.477,"text":"一個工廠 那這樣的話規格的飼料化也可以來餵豬 他的用途呢能夠餵相關的豬隻還要餵豬隻喔 部長沒有 我跟委員報告齁 就是飼料沒有 廚藝變成飼料化 他就是飼料了他不再是用廚藝 只是他的料源是廚藝但是最後出來的是一個有規格的成分的標記的一個飼料"},{"start":346.738,"end":375.588,"text":"好 那本席就要求了如果你国内要引进EcoFit的话你需明定来源制成检验 稽查与禁止项目这一定会而且我本席要求是要用在相关法规内用专章处理或者是您要用一个专法来做EcoFit的这样子的一个政策方向所以如果在未修法前你的EcoFit的试验当然是"},{"start":377.127,"end":401.42,"text":"僅得用於非食用食物那就是說你是不是要回歸用到豬啊當然牛羊是吃草啦這個豬啊不能用到回歸到當你在試驗的時候你是不是馬上就要用到這樣的豬隻還是說在你試驗的這樣過程當中你應該用到非食用動物而且因為你還沒有立法"},{"start":402.401,"end":409.73,"text":"所以我認為你在Ecofeed這樣的實驗階段到應該是要謹慎的所以這個您怎麼看"},{"start":410.656,"end":432.724,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我想我們在正式的推出EcoFit類似這樣的廚藝飼料的話第一個部分法規一定會完備它然後會做很明確的料源的一個使用不是所有的料源都適合做這樣的一個廚藝飼料化的部分那第三個的話整個飼料本身也要經過相關的一個檢驗而且它的品規也會做檢驗"},{"start":433.484,"end":459.765,"text":"好我在這邊提醒就是如果你要積極開發廚餘飼料化產品就要有義務把防疫跟法治走在前面而不是讓豬隻跟豬農再一次替國家的適風險好再來這個補助轉型補助要有效而不是逼豬農非法求生在本席要問的時候我想了解這個百億豬隻的基金"},{"start":460.786,"end":475.434,"text":"我們的養豬基金從第一期的百億到現在我聽說到行政院這邊你們下修到50億那到底行政院是到底金額是多少那第二個是什麼時候要核定"},{"start":477.467,"end":496.542,"text":"我跟委員報告就是第二期的這樣子一個養豬的一個升級韌性的部分大概50.52億左右那他另外會未來會外加一個就是我們的那個鋪子的一個養豬那個什麼肉品市場那個淨費另外做切割所以現在是50.52億百億的養豬現在變成50對 什麼時候合"},{"start":502.314,"end":531.377,"text":"應該在年底之前應該會合下來年底之前有點太慢了這個疫情都要過了我們都進入到第二個階段了部長您是否同意在2026年足跡公開轉型的進度跟補助使用情形也就是明年你在做這樣轉型當中你還是要公開這樣的轉型進度跟補助情形第二個2027年以後轉型後你如果飼料的租成本仍然過高"},{"start":532.778,"end":553.012,"text":"農業部是否還會追加預算持續補助呢第一個部分我想我們一定會每個月我們都會公開不是每一季每個月都會公開現在轉型的這樣一個進度然後第二個部分就是2027年以後如果說豬隻我想你的"},{"start":554.403,"end":570.16,"text":"成本會跟原來的廚餘相比那廚餘本身的費用就比較低我們應該看整體的豬農的收益跟白豬或是黑豬的這個收益我希望他是拉能夠誤差會比較小一點這是我們努力的目標部長"},{"start":571.301,"end":591.715,"text":"這個我只是一個提醒不要像我們現在政府推的青年購物貸款青年購物貸款給他優惠前5年你不用繳本金你只要繳利息第6年開始繳本金現在就是第6年之後其實還是繳不起因為你的薪資根本趕不上讓你去繳你的貸款的本金"},{"start":595.177,"end":618.062,"text":"所以這樣的一個政策那好意變成是一個反而是青年的負擔所以我提醒你你2026年大力的補助啊那這個到底我們飼養的成本還是這麼高的情況之下你嘎然的說好我不補助你農民了你的飼料費用了那可能又是另外一場的這個民怨爆發我只是善意提醒你"},{"start":618.382,"end":637.557,"text":"好 好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 再來最後 農業部您在這邊 我以上啦除以退出豬男士防疫的底線也是國家責任的開始那本席也希望我們兩個部會那能夠在我們一起加油打氣啦那希望在禁止廚餘入豬那請農業部盡速的將寫進農業管理法那在這邊也把對於農業部也要很明確的就是把廚餘當作自己的廢棄物的責任"},{"start":646.624,"end":652.472,"text":"那我們一起來為這樣的防疫的底線能夠守住成為國家責任好 謝謝 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謝謝好 請顧部長是 沈偉永好 部長那今天因為其實國防部有一些議題我也想繼續追但是因為今天排的這個議題也是至關重要就是跟這一個火藥炸藥的原物料的這個進出口的事項所以"},{"start":24.833,"end":49.767,"text":"第一個我認為就是說我們對於這個採購的這個流程還有我們要怎麼去做驗收這些事情原本都很重要也很值得在立法院討論但我個人是覺得就是現在因為它是週末出來的這個消息那整個週末其實討論的方向說真的很歪就變成說讓我們民眾接收到的這種跟國防相關的資訊我覺得會有很大的偏差"},{"start":50.607,"end":66.248,"text":"因為我知道這個媒體報導就很喜歡講說這家廠商原本可能是做什麼的他怎麼可以去拿這樣的一個標案等等之類的但是第一個我是想說當然很多人會提到過往合成做這個衛浴相關的他也會去拿這些抗蛋板"},{"start":66.926,"end":90.367,"text":"那如果大家對這個韓國這個南華集團有一定認知的話他做的是保險做的是百貨公司相關的這些產業但他現在也是重要的韓國的這個K9自走炮的這個出口商還有像這一個我們這一個失華弱勢期嘛大家的認知就是做水晶賣這個水晶做得很漂亮但他同樣的他的集團也有做狙擊槍的這個狙擊晶"},{"start":92.108,"end":110.454,"text":"所以就是說呢目前這種在雙用通用的這個狀況之下現在越來越多這種民間的企業它會加入它會到這一個軍事產業裡面所以如果我們從這個角度切入我會認為說就是我們反而一直在傳遞給民眾一個錯誤的一個國防的常識"},{"start":111.534,"end":140.067,"text":"尤其是我們現在要加入飛鴻供應鏈但是不代表這個議題不值得討論就是說在這個議題裡面我個人在看這個議題的時候我反而會覺得說反而是投標的廠商因為其實投標的廠商最後因為第一次是流標嘛 對不對然後第二次最後也就只有他而已所以我反而是想問說為什麼就只有他投就是說其他的人能夠去做這件事情的人照理說在台灣也是大有人在啊"},{"start":140.467,"end":167.427,"text":"那他今天你说跟需要取得出口或者进口相关的许可这件事情我觉得应该有很多厂商都有能力做得到那是不是因为他认为说他今天来做这个国家的标案他觉得他吃亏啊他觉得在他的商业利益上不符合啊会有各式各样的因素那是不是是否可以针对这一点就是说为什么今天来投标的厂商只有一家这件事情是不是可以做一个简短的说明"},{"start":168.257,"end":183.6,"text":"跟委員報告主要就是因為這個火藥原物料都是各國他們往往要優先滿足自身的需求他會嚴格一個輸出管制的規定所以重點就是在於你要在投標之前"},{"start":184.681,"end":212.576,"text":"你應該要有辦法拿得到當地政府的輸出許可的證明文件不然的話你一旦沒有辦法履約你就會面臨非常嚴重的一個後果這個就是我們合約訂定的一個最主要的精神所以他必須要思考好他有沒有履約能力因為他要來投標他就要繳交3%的押標金然後之後得了標之後他要繳交預算金額5%的履約保證金"},{"start":213.567,"end":225.335,"text":"那這個交貨其實就是一個一翻兩瞪眼的東西也就是說他今天如果拿不到輸出許可證明文件他就沒辦法交貨然後接下來他還要去拿到原廠的證明"},{"start":226.111,"end":238.598,"text":"然後等等的這些然後相關文件之後他還要能夠運抵台灣然後運抵台灣之後我要馬上交給我們的專業譬如說我們這一次是軍備局205場那205場就要進行這個檢驗當檢驗過了我們才會付款那如果他檢驗不過"},{"start":247.694,"end":264.45,"text":"那他履歷保證要被沒收他履歷保證沒有說不但被沒收他要遭受庭權的處分所以他有辦法能夠達到這些相關的當地政府的輸出區域證明文件才會來有意願"},{"start":266.381,"end":289.113,"text":"來進行投標因為他這個時候要思考他有沒有最後有沒有辦法能力履約這個就是現在的一個我們之所以認為不需要去訂定一些其他的資格條件因為他只要能夠從事國際貿易那麼他能夠拿得到當地輸出的許可證明文件拿到原廠的證明然後確保品質安全無虞"},{"start":290.362,"end":299.402,"text":"我們這個時候才會付款所以他每個人來投標的時候他都是要先衡量自己有沒有這樣的旅遊能力"},{"start":300.424,"end":323.27,"text":"好 謝謝部長就是說因為這件事情對我來講就是說剛剛整個的流程從他取得相關的證明到他必須要履約等等之類我相信205在做這個驗收的時候一定會非常的嚴格我想說這個都不是什麼問題但是我們是希望就假設我們今天希望我們的國防有更多的這些民間的產業能夠來加入的時候我們希望能夠看到的是更多的廠商來投"},{"start":324.73,"end":352.53,"text":"對不對然後更多廠商來投那表示跟委員報告我們為了這個我們去清查了過去20年所有這些關於當然除了軍備局有生產之外國內廠商沒有產能的這些所謂內購外貨的方式也就是去然後我們都按政府採購法來辦理公開招標我們的資格我們要求的資格20年來沒有任何的改變就是"},{"start":354.278,"end":365.073,"text":"合法的公司設立登記第二個有納稅的證明第三個他有從事國際貿易業的營業項目就是三個20年來清查了幾十個案子"},{"start":366.448,"end":387.654,"text":"沒有任何的改變我們就是要廣增商源讓所有有能力的人都不會因為受到這些門檻而受到不當的限制而事實上他能夠交貨才是整個問題的重點所以我在這裡講我們不能夠劃錯重點我們的重點是我們要能夠讓這個購案能夠執行成功"},{"start":391.275,"end":415.967,"text":"好 感謝部長就是我剛剛也提到就是說重點就是最後能不能履約它如果不能夠履約的話它也會有相關它的牙標件會不會沒收啊等等之類的話它會有遭受到這些不利益那我們希望的就是說在未來的時候有更多的這樣的一些不管是通用的廠商或者說國際貿易的廠商因為畢竟現在非紅供應鏈是我們非常重要的一個目標越來越多的民間能夠加入到這整體的產業來講我們應該是樂見才對"},{"start":418.396,"end":424.879,"text":"那接下來因為這個時間的因素我可能沒有辦法問全部的問題但是我在12月1號的時候有質詢過這個空軍所以這個呢空軍那個時候呢就是我們那時候是在討論就是說到底為什麼說這一個大三的時候結果體檢出問題的人變多對不對"},{"start":436.585,"end":452.557,"text":"那時候我們有討論過好幾個可能不同的因素我們說我們先不要下結論那在這一次呢其實因為我想說也要讓公眾知道其實空軍這邊是有來調相關資料的而且看起來好像也知道比較確切的原因所以是不是能趁這個時候跟國人說明一下"},{"start":453.686,"end":481.759,"text":"委員好 我是空軍參謀長跟委員做簡單的報告那這個看起來他的比例就是畢業前飛行生不及格比例越來越高的原因是因為我們在以前全部是飛行生所以說他佔的比例就是百分之百一開始就是佔百分之百但是現在因為我們因應很多近視他想加入空軍的這些專才生也一併招進來所以說競效的時候他的飛行生的比例本來就低那"},{"start":482.939,"end":506.89,"text":"專才生的比例就大概佔了四分之一所以一進來他就是佔的比例就飛行生佔的比例本來就很低所以說你只要有一些不及格的佔比他就看起來會比較高的原因在這所以說專才生我們從110年開始陸陸續續就招了比較多大概在將近四分之一的這個專才生進入空軍官校所以看起來比例是比較高"},{"start":507.35,"end":524.098,"text":"但事實上它的常態畢業前飛行生不及格的比例大概都在8%以內這個沒有改變對 因為我有看到你們詳細的數據就簡單來講因為這個是專才跟飛行生都加入的進去如果是我們把它拆開的話就發現在飛行生這邊其實是算穩定的"},{"start":524.398,"end":546.517,"text":"其實沒有比較高對所以這個我覺得很重要我用這個例子我也是想要強調就是說假設今天是有人在網路上拿到這樣的一個數據他可能就馬上鋪天蓋地的開始攻擊說什麼你看我們的沒有人想要當兵了沒有人想要來當飛官了因為中國的威脅什麼等等之類如果說今天這一個謠言一旦出去的話其實對國軍一定是傷"},{"start":547.378,"end":574.531,"text":"所以我們在第一時間我們要怎麼回應要怎麼樣讓這個謠言能夠直寫其實是非常重要的就用這個來當作一個例子我們今天在討論這個案子其實也是一樣一開始就是它已經就被定調說這一個這個什麼條件看起來不符合的廠商他為什麼會做這樣的事情但其實我們從剛剛國際的例子或者說我們從國內這20年來我們招標的方式我們沒有改變我們這幾件事情其實應該要在第一時間的時候就要做回應"},{"start":575.131,"end":590.536,"text":"那不然的話你看整個週末這樣燒然後一直到今天這樣有這樣的一個專報我們變成說在今天這個時間才有辦法很精準的跟國人說明的時候他的謠言可能已經燒了三天OK 我覺得這個這個都會有傷啦 這都會有傷那很感謝空軍吊這個相關的資料讓我們解開這個疑惑那"},{"start":593.635,"end":608.448,"text":"接下來就是這一個這個我可能只能快速問一下就是我可能下次再繼續問詳細的細節就是我們這個第五級的這個保全人員做這個關鍵基礎設施這個防護目前我看到就是之前有做一個盤點說大概需要多少人"},{"start":609.438,"end":635.485,"text":"我們看到光是北部好像就需要大概200多人中部需要100多南部需要多少我看加起來大概500人因為現在他們還要他這個資格有限定對不對這個人應該很清楚就是說他可能是比如說他是特種的部隊退的又或者說他是軍人退伍的他才有辦法去做這個這個資格有限定而且我們國家還會幫忙做授訓這個都是好事"},{"start":636.005,"end":658.079,"text":"但是因為我們看今年這個受訓的資料看起來就是受訓的這個人數感覺還達不到我們現在需求的人數但我看薪水也不差對不對這個薪水看起來是五萬多這個薪水也不差所以就是這一件事情現在有點人數不足那我們要怎麼樣讓這個量能趕快趕上這件事情是否可以簡短的說明一下就好因為時間已經到了我想"},{"start":663.141,"end":681.592,"text":"現在主要是說他們這些第五級的保全人員他有要求一些授訓的時數而且要有一些特殊的經驗那這些保全的人員他到底能不能夠去納入他們的這個特種防護團的邊組這可能是一個關鍵"},{"start":683.113,"end":705.968,"text":"那這個可能是要問一下內政部因為內政部在有關這個民防法相關的規範在規範那些有關這個民防總隊特種防護團聯合防護團這個相關的規定所以如果他把它納入這個特種防護團的話那而且才能夠納入這個"},{"start":709.298,"end":731.5,"text":"民防法相當規定可以認為免緩招的一個對象那如果是這樣子的話是不是才有一個足夠的誘因然後同時他要能夠在這個防護特種防護塔裡面扮演一個什麼樣的角色基於他的經驗他的授訓的時數那如果能夠納入這樣整體的考量的話"},{"start":732.401,"end":745.858,"text":"應該才會有比較高的誘因因為這個誘因是我們之前討論過所以部長直接回答到一個重點就是說因為我們會來跟內政部溝通如果他能夠在這一個防護團的這個定義裡面的話他在這個叫召的時候他就不會有雙重的這個義務"},{"start":747.239,"end":771.828,"text":"那可能也對於因為裡面的人可能會抱怨說為什麼做這個又要做那一個所以在這件事情之下或許可以讓更多人知道有這樣的一個工作的機會所以我覺得因為畢竟上我們現在會有量能需求的問題那我們要怎麼去提高誘因它看起來它的薪水的福利是已經在那邊了有沒有其他的誘因能夠去提供的話我覺得這是至關重要的一點因為時間因素我可能就先問到這裡謝謝好 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沈議長對於審計部的報告他可能沒有整個講清楚審計部的報告最主要他的好意就是說中科院現在跟關務署的進口我們沒有辦法連線我們必須要透過國安部軍備局去申請之後才能連線那審計部的報告意見是希望"},{"start":170.674,"end":191.812,"text":"財政部關稅署能夠同意跟中科院直接連線我們對每一筆的進口資料可以透過關務署這邊去查證但是目前關務署並沒有同意所以我們現在採取的方式是針對他的進口報單他可以把他的進口價格塗銷但是我們從他的進口報單去查如果他中間的中轉港口包含鹿港澳地區我們就會特別再去查證"},{"start":192.332,"end":207.524,"text":"那請問一下就關於剛剛所講的就是說偽造產地證明偽造進口證明的這個這個數量跟調查期間就調查到的期間項目的部分呢那可不可以在沒有違反就所謂的這個軍事機密的情況之下提供給我們參考"},{"start":208.585,"end":232.102,"text":"需要多少時間可以給我這樣子的一個報告好 謝謝那再來呢我想要問一下就是有關於這個無人機的部分那國軍現在持續擴充無人機的操作所的能量我們希望2025年的時候能夠完訓3100多元嘛那大家會希望說人人都會操作可是我想問一個問題喔這個民用的無人機跟軍用無人機的證照它是有互相通用的嗎"},{"start":233.247,"end":256.071,"text":"我们就我的理解我们军中会专门就这个各类型的无人机我们会做一个相关的一个认证那这个会做相关的认证训师室来说明好那可不可以尽快说明因为我们时间很有限今天议题很多我们的军用无人机因为我们的一到五类无人机都有所谓的接装训练因为我们的"},{"start":257.112,"end":283.411,"text":"這個無人機的性能都是不太一樣是的所以我們會這個證照取得我們會有接裝訓練或是我們的訓練取得之後然後發給我們的操作手來做一個操作無人機的我知道你的情況了那但是呢部長我要跟你澄清一件事情現在在軍中裡面有非常多的基層軍官都遇到同樣的情況是什麼呢就是被長官要求要去報考無人機的學測這是民用的部分"},{"start":284.532,"end":305.507,"text":"來 可以看一下 在十月的時候就有了請問有人知道報名無人機學測要去哪裡報考嗎現在強制要去報考不然要懲處 請問我們有做這樣的強制嗎報委 我們國安部沒有做這方面的對 我們沒有 我們理論上沒有然後 名面上發給他們的文書都沒有但是口頭上面 就是沒有記錄的部分都有"},{"start":306.347,"end":326.644,"text":"這是部長我真的跟你講我如果今天不是受到非常多的陳情的話我今天不會在這裡講這個而且我待會兒會再提出更進一步的證據所以我要講的事情是如果我們官方的立場並沒有要強迫我們的基層官兵要去報名無人機的培訓 民用的培訓的話那就不能在軍中發生這樣的事情我們看下一個部分 來"},{"start":327.825,"end":339.255,"text":"給大家看一下所謂歡迎有意願自費餐訓他把自費餐訓標起來這代表什麼意思其實大家在職場上面工作久的人都看得懂他說什麼呢費用要多少錢啊一個人要兩萬塊錢兩萬塊錢兩萬塊錢我再講一次上課安排他寫了一大堆就配了三台讓你去自主訓練"},{"start":349.764,"end":377.691,"text":"他就寫說呢 哎呀 這個呢是一個很好的一個機會齁我提供很好的機會讓大家能夠自主的學習能夠學到更多的技能說得很好聽 說得很正向說自廢殘馴 但其實大家都是被逼迫的我告訴大家這是八軍團的部分還有另外 如果大家覺得這一個截圖沒有辦法 登記網址在下面他傳到軍中裡面要大家去登記所以有誰有報 有誰沒報 長官都看得到"},{"start":378.411,"end":395.205,"text":"所以今天沒報的人他都會緊張說那長官看到我沒報是不是覺得說我今天我跟我的上級長官我之間會產生衝突還沒有等一下一併回覆那再來如果大家覺得這個只是一部分的話告訴大家另外在官職部也一樣"},{"start":396.065,"end":413.073,"text":"這個是我們拿到的收據去參加什麼呢崇祐影藝科技大學推廣教育中心無人機的證照班收據訓練費用是兩萬三千元補助一萬三但是學員要自費一萬塊錢我想問一下如果剛才都講得這麼清楚了"},{"start":413.493,"end":424.947,"text":"是沒有所謂的要強迫大家去上課那學員還要去自費一萬這是一個什麼樣的情況啊我們繼承官兵他們的薪水也不是說特別的高那今天因為國防部你們要希望他們可以有所謂的新技能"},{"start":429.713,"end":449.458,"text":"然後要他們去另外額外付錢去做一個訓練這不是很奇怪嗎如果像部長您剛講的很好啊我們自己有自己的培訓我們用自己的培訓讓他們來學習讓他們來培訓之後能夠取得我們自己國防部裡面的許可說你已經有這樣子的一個技能了還需要人家付一萬塊錢到兩萬塊錢嗎 你看"},{"start":451.898,"end":466.515,"text":"關子部的價格跟人家八軍團的價格還不一樣耶所以這代表說這是發生在全台灣裡面基層士兵裡面都普遍有的情況非常多人在抱怨是這個事情請問部長您知不知道以及未來要如何改進"},{"start":467.332,"end":479.182,"text":"包委員我簡要回答第一個我們目前以陸軍來說我們都是以一二類的無人機為主那我們依據民航法九之九之十條我們的軍用無人機是可以依照我們的專長證書不用所謂的民間證照"},{"start":482.366,"end":485.788,"text":"對我知道啊所以我才覺得你們很奇怪嘛第二點我們所有籌購的無人機都不管是軍售商售都是包含到幫我們做訓練第三點如果委員所提列這個事證我們清查是屬實的話我們會嚴格的禁止你們要嚴格 我跟你講你們要嚴格禁止因為它已經是包含我剛剛已經舉了兩個地方官職部跟八軍團都有我們會下去了解"},{"start":508.962,"end":524.49,"text":"拜託了解不要再用這種所謂的自願然後呢講是講自願實際上就是要求我們自己有自己的系統不需要讓基層士兵還要多花一兩萬塊錢去做這個事情好嗎那個部長這個部份國防部可以檢討嗎"},{"start":527.145,"end":555.033,"text":"陸軍參謀長我想應該也不是只有陸軍我想因為我們應該都會嚴格禁止有這樣的狀況我們因為今天委員提出來那我們會下去做一個清查可不可以給我一個時間你們要需要花多少時間檢討之後給我一個答案我想是不是兩個禮拜好的好那接下來另外一個議題是關於身心調適假的部分那個請問一下部長因為您之前也是律師應該非常清楚各種放假的這個規定請問身心調適假是什麼時候開始實行的"},{"start":556.129,"end":581.12,"text":"申請調適假應該是10月對 沒錯啦 就不用太精準啦就是114年10月10號啦那包含是我們也一直強調就是關於說約聘僱的這個部分也應該要就是能夠跟上那謝謝國防部在這邊呢私底下也給我們一些比較正面的回饋好 但是呢 但是我要講一下來 看下一張那個我們那個參謀長又可以回來了"},{"start":581.92,"end":587.402,"text":"我可以看一下喔 欸 身心調世家一百一十五年開始實施 這是一個什麼樣的一個說明啊不會一百一十四年十月開始上路的事情嗎 為什麼我們很多的地方都在講說 欸呀一百一十五年開始實施 跟人家拗這個半 不知道半年的時間 有意義嗎"},{"start":604.113,"end":633.573,"text":"蛤我時間不是很夠齁這個上面的訊息上面的資料不是我跟你講不只啦你要這樣子我就一個一個給你看有多少人都在講請不到身心調適價的問題來觀止部齁硬要把補修榮譽價慰勞價都修完才能開始請身心調適價這有合乎法規嗎沒有好身心道這個剛剛我還沒念完還有咧身心調適價到底可不可以用觀止部都沒有宣導很多人在問下一個"},{"start":634.053,"end":634.104,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":635.014,"end":663.53,"text":"主管說誰想放身心調適假你或我走一個 囂張啊身心調適假主觀不能阻擋但就是可以噁心別人啊把你約來 哎呀看一下你是不是有什麼情緒狀況啊我想請一個身心調適假結果我越請壓力越大所有人都跑來關心我發生什麼事情我要告訴大家的是說這個部分 國防部一定尤其 顧部長我記得您在一上任的時候做了一個非常好的一個政策我也很認同"},{"start":664.23,"end":692.083,"text":"就關於就是回家的時候那個假日回報的這個事情那時候在一陣子之後我有跟您講說您這個命令下去是好的但是執行下去的時候遇到一些問題那您後來也說要去改善身心調適假放到一樣的問題在軍隊裡面也就是這個假有但問題是國軍請不了所以可不可以問一下部長您也是律師在這種情況之下我們的基層士兵要如何去維繫自己的權益啊"},{"start":692.779,"end":711.087,"text":"我想類似這種比較屬於去年十月十號才實施的這樣子的一個身心調適下我們確實應該要多多的到每個基層讓各個主管都能夠了解那我們會努力的來進行這個宣導"},{"start":711.967,"end":734.514,"text":"這個非常非常非常的重要我們對於國軍裡面這一些日子以來然後產生的各種自傷的人數的攀升以及我們對於包含是很多的心腹的提高大家都很努力在做那今天有這樣的一個身心調適這樣我們希望能夠幫到基層軍官是 因為它事實上它有一個就是說國軍有一個特殊性"},{"start":735.194,"end":748.89,"text":"他就不能夠影響到戰備的部分所以這個部分我想我們會遵照委員的指示我們會努力的去做一個宣導努力做一個平衡好不好至少你要讓人家他看"},{"start":750.491,"end":776.401,"text":"你今天如果說你不讓請是因為說我們現在可能目前的請假的情況是對我們戰力上面戰備上面會有影響的時候你也要把這個事情告訴人家跟人家算給別人聽嘛那我們的軍官不會不懂嘛今天大家會覺得請不到假而且這麼多人都請不到的原因就是因為明明人數是夠的那就我一個人要請假結果呢也不讓請所以才會有這樣子的一個問題所以這個部分應該很清楚是需要改善的對吧"},{"start":776.601,"end":797.269,"text":"是 我想剛剛委員講一個平衡我想這是一個很好的一個觀念是是是 我沒有要求你們說一定所有對 我沒有要求你們說所有的東西一定非得怎麼樣我知道國軍有特殊之處但是國軍的權益部分呢他能夠盡量讓他擁有的不可以讓他喪失這是我們對於我們軍官弟兄最基本希望國防部能夠盡量來做的"},{"start":798.63,"end":817.236,"text":"那最後一個問題就是關於今年12月8號的時候F16發生這個飛行員的昏迷案件那最後好險是成功醒來喔但是呢也引發了這個司令部的非安通報那請問一下當初說要裝AutoGCSA防撞地系統的時候是有什麼原因部長您知道嗎"},{"start":819.686,"end":841.616,"text":"報告委員 這是在107年的時候6月4號的時候 F16發生一級事件之後那我們提出來的一個一個做法對 107年的時候發生了這個我們的無駕駛然後呢 這個失事的情況之下我們軍方經過檢討之後認為有必要在F16上面呢裝這樣子的一個系統那請問一下"},{"start":842.116,"end":857.826,"text":"我們裝這個AutoGCSAS的防撞地系統是什麼時候招標什麼時候付款的因為畢竟這是2018年我們就已經評估要做的事情是 這個一直在跟美軍進行一直是什麼時候開始從107年之後的107年6月之後我們在107年的8月就跟美軍開始談這個案子"},{"start":865.1,"end":891.912,"text":"那因為美軍自己那個時候都沒有這樣的一個裝備然後呢所以一直在發展到這幾年美軍也才做完了這幾年是哪幾年講得清楚一點好不好大概在今年也才完成一個飛測今年完成飛測今年是2025年數位的部分因為它要結合這個系統不是說你裝上去它就可以用我知道啊每一個國家的飛機都不一樣我知道啊但是我想要問一下我們這個部分向美軍付款沒有"},{"start":893.488,"end":912.145,"text":"這個已經開始在做 已經都佈線了所以已經付款了嘛 對不對目前裝設的情況怎麼樣我們目前F16裡面這個裝設這個系統的比率是多少佈線明年4月才完成所有的機隊目前完成130架目前是0嘛目前是130架"},{"start":915.472,"end":933.172,"text":"完成布線它主要分成三個部分我要問的是說裝好這個系統嘛因為今天這個發生昏迷事件之後大家回想起來說2018年你們就講說要裝這個系統了18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25隔了多久了那所以我要問一下說我們目前為止裝好這個系統的F16是幾架"},{"start":936.937,"end":966.446,"text":"報委員不能用裝好幾架這個東西來就是他已經可以開始使用他可以開始使用這個系統的有幾架他要分三階段來執行就完成嘛就123階段我就問到做好到第三階段的有幾架嘛因為我跟你說你可以直接回答我因為有的明年才能好那就明年OK報委員他的第三階段還不能做的原因是因為我們的飛機的軟體系統還沒有update完他不能現在去裝這個軟體要不然的話在飛機上是不能匹配不能使用"},{"start":966.906,"end":994.492,"text":"那請問一下2023年要給立法院的報告裡面有沒有寫到什麼時候要在台灣做安裝跟測試啊你們在2023年的時候好我告訴你在2023年的時候齁因為大家時間背景不太一樣最後我講一下在2023年的時候我們就也在問過一次問題喔專案報告那時候給立法院的報告是說呢美國空軍在2024年要在台灣安裝跟測試"},{"start":996.352,"end":1022.993,"text":"那個時候的說法是這樣那到了現在是要到明年那沒關係第一階段已經開始做包委員這個2024年我們第一階段已經開始做這個沒有問題但是跟您報告全案結束要到115年才會開始陸陸續續上機那是因為軟體匹配的問題因為它是數位的非控軟體才能安裝這個東西所以要到2028年全機隊才能完成安裝嘛對不對"},{"start":1024.125,"end":1044.626,"text":"不用 到116年27年 不 2028年這是你們12月時候要講的啊是 那你現在要告訴我說不用是可以提前了是嗎 是所以說你可以12月10號的時候你們告訴我們說呢2028年全機隊能夠完成安裝那您現在的說法是說能夠提前多久到什麼時候全機隊完成安裝的時間整個全案我們在"},{"start":1048.757,"end":1054.269,"text":"是 這個我們在116年這個部分我們是可以上機來使用全部的機對嗎是好 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楊瓊瑜發言邀請部長跟次長兩位同業部長還有環境部次長"},{"start":24.124,"end":45.598,"text":"好 部長 這一次我們中央災害應變中心為了防範非洲豬瘟 所以我們宣布決議2027年全面禁止廚餘養豬並排除共同珍珠與環保飼料方案"},{"start":46.9,"end":52.367,"text":"如果說廚餘養豬的養豬戶要繼續那你必須要珍珠90度以上才能夠來養豬同時要裝設影像監視系統來定期的來做回報"},{"start":63.824,"end":78.457,"text":"這個政策允許緩衝期也就是再使用一年所以本席首先要請教次長我們現在的推動是垃圾跟廚餘希望要分開 是不是"},{"start":78.937,"end":97.89,"text":"是 我們繼續分類繼續分類 垃圾跟廚餘必須要分開我們希望廚餘能夠走在利用廚餘走在利用非常好 廚餘要走在利用好 所以部長你們兩位在這裡我們實質解決問題因為我們大概有六成六成是有養豬者"},{"start":101.753,"end":116.739,"text":"收起來再利用去養豬尤其有說因為我們的Odiyama日本的最好吃這個是全世界非常有名而且大家肯定的那我們的政策已經既定我們首先來討論要怎麼樣去解決這個問題"},{"start":120.18,"end":132.527,"text":"以我台中市為例我們努力的來處理這個問題處理問題但是我們現在所面臨到的問題也就是台中市我們的住戶大樓將近有8000多棟"},{"start":138.15,"end":155.595,"text":"將近有8000多棟那這些8000多棟原本多數都有養豬戶來處理來協助那少部分由這個清除公司廢棄物公司來做處理但是現在我們的政策是"},{"start":157.113,"end":178.109,"text":"不能不能再收幾乎我們的推動是這個方向所以我們希望的也是垃圾跟廚餘要分開剛剛次長已經有說了所以在這樣的一個情況之下民間的業者事業費去清除公司他的量能也沒有那麼多那我們這些大樓要怎麼辦"},{"start":179.315,"end":191.562,"text":"要怎麼辦我相信台中市有這個問題所有像新北台北這個桃園台南高雄只要有大樓的縣市絕對會有這個問題那我們怎麼處理呢現在各縣市政府想盡了一切辦法配合中央所以我要請教在這個專案"},{"start":205.05,"end":222.803,"text":"這個緩衝一年的期間針對於要求地方政府配合我們的政策將這些大樓所必須運送要怎麼運送如果你全部堆給我們所有的清潔隊他的量能不夠人不夠車不夠我們要怎麼處理請教農業部長"},{"start":228.9,"end":243.056,"text":"環境部來說明 好環境部說明好是家戶垃圾包括大樓這個部分那大樓的部分過去是用清除業者來幫忙清理的這個部分他的垃圾 我們要走政治主義的問題"},{"start":244.246,"end":267.289,"text":"我跟委員報告這裡面為什麼要這樣子分就是在地方政府垃圾水水灰徵收地方政府就收了水灰在台北市是水袋徵收是用垃圾專用袋來處理台中市為例他是水水灰徵收那如果是公寓大廈大樓的部分自己找雨清清理的他就不用水水灰繳清除處理費用給地方政府他是自己委託"},{"start":268.587,"end":281.155,"text":"清除業來清除的同樣的現在這些廚藝已經不能夠再養豬了他過去委託乙清的時候他的廚藝分開送到養豬場他那個幾乎沒有處理成本因為他把它集中了你家以前六成是給養豬戶去處理啊那現在量人不夠 請說明"},{"start":288.74,"end":305.315,"text":"他現在因為沒有養豬場願意去公寓大廈大樓去收這樣的廚餘了所以他已經都必須要把這樣的廚餘交給可以再利用的地點那目前我們在禁止廚餘養豬的期間是送到環保局指定地點不收處理費用不收處理費用"},{"start":305.615,"end":323.733,"text":"所以本市要請教是你說叫環保局指定地點來收那我現在環保局的量能都已經飽足了那我必須這是運送要一年的時間耶我必須我的車子我的人力都會增加那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":324.153,"end":346.962,"text":"我剛講的是在禁止廚餘養豬就是到今年年底還有15天這段時間是要送到環保局指定的地點不收處理費用但是明年1月開始有一年的緩衝期是可以繼續4月廚餘養豬的所以公益大廈他們如果能夠找到養豬業者以台中市來講他的養豬業者是繼續可以來養豬的"},{"start":348.263,"end":370.106,"text":"目前台中市沒有禁止廚餘養豬所以在這種情形之下有一年的緩衝期但這段時間環保局必須要做很多事情第一個他要加速他的再利用設施目前的堆回或者是黑水門台中市那種規劃他的外埔的那個生處理生處理的那個是處理生處理的部分啊他會繼續他會繼續他不是熟食啊對"},{"start":371.893,"end":395.569,"text":"我更正一下部長公寓大廈也不能夠處於養豬在這種情況之下所以次長我就讓你講你明明中央規定我們所有的大樓是不可以再去處於養豬你剛剛講的完全錯誤不是我更正一下你要更正你今天到立法院來你講的連你自己宣布的政策你通通錯誤"},{"start":396.67,"end":410.842,"text":"你讓我們地方政府要依據哪些所以本席強烈要求你今天中央政府告訴什麼台中市政府該怎麼處理我現在本席就告訴你我們的困難點你八千多棟的"},{"start":412.664,"end":432.963,"text":"8000多棟的這個大樓他現在處於是不可以給養豬屋不可以對呀所以剛剛跟你講的完全錯誤怎麼有這樣子的情況是你自己制定的政策你還完全錯誤我現在聽你的話聽你的政策我碰到問題我光光這8000多棟我要去收"},{"start":434.4,"end":457.945,"text":"我要我怎麼辦我的清潔隊有這樣的量人嗎民間業者有這樣的量人嗎你中央政府一直神功下來的政策我們全力配合但是你要告訴我我不夠的時候至少你要補人補錢補車子給我啊你通通都沒有還政策錯誤的離譜自己我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":459.005,"end":483.505,"text":"如果我們的公益大廈如果繼續他們不繳不繳水費去收垃圾的話那清潔隊員不需要服務他是要委託民間的已清繼續去幫他做過去的方式也是這樣市長我們是要解決問題如果要清潔隊收的話本期理性的告訴你問題中央政府告訴我們社區的家戶裡面"},{"start":485.568,"end":492.58,"text":"這個廚餘現在是不可以去給養豬戶的 對不對是啊 所以剛剛你承認錯誤了吧你承認錯誤 我們繼續討論那這樣子下來要誰去收"},{"start":497.881,"end":513.864,"text":"清潔隊要去收 跟委員報告他如果有繳垃圾有水水會徵收的話市政府會幫忙服務他如果沒有水水會繳的話他委託以清清理請問 請過去的模式 市政府要去協助本席一開始的提問我環保局的量能已經飽和"},{"start":515.186,"end":524.935,"text":"我要增加這些觀光運跟收這個是一個很大的問題對不對 你這一年多不是只有你剛才講的這15天是一年多365天加15天欸是380天欸很辛苦 你要解決問題因為政策是你們定的沒有理由一個政策下來讓地方不知所措"},{"start":540.39,"end":564.929,"text":"不是只有台中市政府的問題各縣市政府的社區大樓都有這個問題可不可以跟委員報告一下本期具體建議 既然政策是你們訂的那地方非常的痛苦有這個問題每一個大樓都打電話來服務處說沒人收我們怎麼辦不能沒人收 我們是一個政府所以你們去研議方案"},{"start":566.169,"end":587.187,"text":"針對於社區大樓的廚餘不能給養豬戶的來飼養的時候那我們配合政府的政策這些收跟運的量能你們要怎麼樣去協助地方政府啊我跟委員報告這個才是重點嘛我可以說台中市環保局的做法嗎可以跟委員報告一下嗎"},{"start":588.248,"end":603.499,"text":"我們要求各縣市政府他們必須要提供轄內可以協助產生源的量能包括清除液包括水回清除液市長你還真的是在雲中已經提出這個問題告訴你你首先第一個政策講錯第二個你認識到說是講錯了我們就要解決問題而不是你指令縣市政府縣市政府統統想盡了一些辦法"},{"start":617.288,"end":630.494,"text":"想辦法要怎麼樣配合你中央所以本席剛剛提出的我們一個結論針對於社區大樓的廚餘沒有辦法現在我們包括到明年底不能給養豬戶來協處的時候這些的清跟允"},{"start":635.616,"end":650.549,"text":"So 到底要怎麼處理請你們專案去研議專案去研議 告訴我們方向縣市政府你要怎麼樣 人補助他 車補助他怎麼樣配合你中央政府來真正的落實這些問題嘛 對不對"},{"start":652.655,"end":673.238,"text":"我們會跟地方政府共同你什麼時候給方案給我們你怎麼補助車補助人你要給人家將近380天我們要怎麼做多久時間告訴本席你們的方案怎麼做跟委員報告現在有沒有要補現在有沒有要補有沒有要補我們所有的縣市政府你們必須要用的你的車子你的人"},{"start":678.839,"end":691.994,"text":"請問有沒有要補到你目前為止你的政策有沒有要補我們看地方政府他因地制宜所採取的方式好 因地制宜啊我們需要請問到目前的政策有沒有要補地方政府收垃圾費他就必須要解決廢棄物處理企劃的問題"},{"start":695.613,"end":713.858,"text":"市長 談到現在 本強是誠意的希望你專案去研議當你的政策下來 地方政府有困難的時候 拜託拜託 六都各自有因地制宜的做法其他做得好的 我們希望台中可以學習台中的問題你要解決台中的問題 台中市長要面對"},{"start":720.569,"end":728.781,"text":"市長今天我們是在解決民眾的問題不是政治話術請你好好的去研討請你去解決這個問題方案告訴本席那最後一個議題我要請農業部長"},{"start":736.96,"end":757.661,"text":"部長我們現在這個非洲中文解決了那麼現在依據我們的規定WOH就是說你在非洲中文最後一個案例完成之後清除後的三個月那麼可以來做申請像菲律賓我們在2023年1月份的時候拿到許可證那9月份開始"},{"start":759.702,"end":778.849,"text":"來運出 很高興但是呢 我們已經完成了這些事情 請教如果依照這個WOHH的這個申請的模式我們預計會在明年的2月份可以來做申請 你會不會提出 像菲律賓來提出"},{"start":780.269,"end":795.276,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個部分我們必須向WOH在2月份我們會提出來然後提出來以後他們會做一些審查那審查如果同意讓我們恢復成非議區的話我們會立即再跟菲律賓去做申請"},{"start":796.196,"end":811.145,"text":"謝謝 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親愛的陳部長跟次長我們再請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":34.406,"end":56.973,"text":"我們肯定你們這段時間非常努力去防止這個這個非洲豬瘟現在問題是現在看起來那個除移禁止養殊之後 現在看起來很多地方都那個後遺症還有很多地方都需要你們大力去幫忙像現在當地的重大問題現在各個很多地方的那個焚化爐壓力都很大這次市長一直在點頭你有自己去 自己去這個"},{"start":58.631,"end":62.985,"text":"兩座焚化爐他那個焚化量啊一天210.96公噸現在給他除以"},{"start":66.468,"end":93.682,"text":"這缸的差不多20.20公噸那現在做了我們做了前面禁止這個廚藝養殖之後那個壓力就更大了當然嘉義市政府很努力啦他馬上就提出了很多的這個這個緊急的這個措施包括希望說要落實這個分類然後廚藝瀝乾以後瀝乾 瀝乾水分之後放到廚藝桶裡面去回收各個縣市政府也很努力的做這件事情然後嘉義市還有很特別的一間我今天要派出去"},{"start":94.881,"end":121.578,"text":"嘉義市有推這個綠能永續循環園區這個裡面有六大類裡面有一個是抵紮的在利用場那個環境部啊環境部在去年有做了一部分的這個幫忙他總經會一億一千兩百三十五萬那環境部有做的幫忙那現在更需要了所以請多幫忙好不好另外一個這個特別的跟這個廚藝有很大關係你看他特別設立一個廚藝在利用場"},{"start":122.992,"end":150.153,"text":"因為現在發生了這個非洲疏溫之後好 現在已經很緊張了所以他們在議會就市政府緊急追加 議會通過了他的這個預算特等預算 我跟你講 拜託不一定給我處定就在嘉義市那個廚藝利用那個廚藝在利用場這邊多幫忙 好不好給到什麼 其實各個縣市政府他只要這個廚藝在利用場趕快做好這個壓力才能減輕啦 好不好 OK好 那另外呢 我要幫我們的"},{"start":151.109,"end":176.941,"text":"同學跟團散業者請命現在就另外一個很嚴重的問題就是營養午餐會不會漲價的問題好像團散業者現在我們做了一個政策的改變嘛 對不對做一個政策改變 改變以後之後現在業者要去清印 量太大了所以現在有卡住 甚至有些價格都在往上跑嘛這是第一個問題 那第二個更嚴重囉那團散業者那個費用增加了"},{"start":180.775,"end":191.522,"text":"其實現在最擔心的是什麼會不會造成我們營養午餐漲價影響到我們的小朋友這部分是不是兩個部會可以做什麼樣的幫忙跟委員報告一下"},{"start":192.711,"end":217.096,"text":"如果是在未來的一年因為事業廚餘學校團散集中供應的盛使是可以繼續廚餘養豬的在未來的一年裡面我們估計因為目前大概有277個養豬廠已經提出要申請裝設智慧監控設備他為什麼要裝就是他想要繼續廚餘養豬那目前已經裝好了有133個廠"},{"start":219.156,"end":244.83,"text":"那因為將來的那個料園只剩下事業廚餘那家戶的廚餘是禁止養豬的所以大家會搶那個料園啦所以學校團散的料園是可以繼續養豬的我們估計可能會有一些繼續養豬的養豬廠會去接收已經不再 就農業部有轉型嘛他有補助 他們就不再吃廚餘的那這個部分的那個產生源的部分會由繼續養豬的部分去接收"},{"start":245.49,"end":266.027,"text":"現在就是很多人來陳情 團山業者現在很緊張包括中華民國 餐盒 食品 商業同業公會 聯合會 理屬店陳明信你就說了嘛他現在就是說 現在整個廚餘量大爆炸嘛所以業者現在忙不過來對不對跟委員報告 他講的問題是最近這兩個禮拜的事情 不是未來一年"},{"start":266.627,"end":288.112,"text":"因為這兩個禮拜是短時間對這段時間這段時間是禁止廚藝養豬的全部沒地方去那這段時間的確是各縣市政府都面臨這樣的一個清運這樣因為剛好有一些養豬業者他就不再不再吃廚藝他就他就這個時候決定就不再去收運了以至於這個時候會有缺口大家很很辛苦啦"},{"start":288.672,"end":308.896,"text":"所以各縣市目前作業的方式就是用清潔隊去收運或者是用開口合約以及清除業者來清除那這個部分的清運費用中央都有補助清運跟處理費用都不收錢他說現在一攤的廚藝用200公斤去省他們這個一天大概處理30桶一家如果30桶一天就給5萬出來我知道 這個是成本啦所以您看市長"},{"start":316.778,"end":334.897,"text":"我們都有關注這個議題啦短時間之內的處理方式還有未來一年我要跟委員報告大家在估計說轉型之後可能會有他不送去處於養豬那成本就會墊高啦因為你再利用不管用黑水門或堆灰等等那個成本都會有所謂的清運跟處理的費用"},{"start":335.638,"end":357.645,"text":"那這個部分有去估算以市場的行情大概要到8000塊左右啦那當我們轉嫁之後我們估計小朋友的剩食每個人到底會漲多少這個當然也跟你的一開始菜單的設計營養健康也要美味可口啊那如果能夠源頭就減少廚餘的產生量那需要廚餘的量就會降低各個學校都在努力當中"},{"start":358.626,"end":370.144,"text":"三个大问题要运得出去嘛你说有步骤还要怎么进一步去帮忙这个你要让他运得出去这个要做你要努力要加快跟加大好不好第二个这个显然就是他的"},{"start":372.028,"end":389.171,"text":"成本提高了所以你們有一部分的補助對不對那要多幫幫他們渡過這個難關第三個比較重要我覺得第三個比較重要就是你剛剛提的不能夠轉嫁弄到後來問題前面這兩個問題沒有解決弄到後來學生營養午餐受影響所以前面兩個解決完之後第三個去注意"},{"start":389.971,"end":415.348,"text":"營養午餐錢不只不能夠增加營值不要受影響營養午餐剛有講就是說菜單的實際很重要盡量不要產生剩食那另外教育部也關心這個議題他們也有參與到這個系統裡面去看看怎麼樣去讓源頭可以減量然後是不是營養午餐會反映實際的那這個要看市場機制另外就是餐飲業餐飲業可能也會因為這樣子"},{"start":416.289,"end":439.065,"text":"那使用者要付費 這個也必須要去面對這個議題市長跟部長 其實就是我們我們肯定你們做了這些措施啦那就是說可是是政策的一個改變嘛所以改變這個過程裡面 他們很多人需要幫忙包括不會影響血統 你們要多努力啦 是不是是因為政策的改變嘛好啦 接下來有兩個很重要其實要改革社會問題 要不要就是再利用嘛"},{"start":440.302,"end":467.225,"text":"第一個 我要問你很重要的其實2018年的時候那時候你們就有宣布說包括要在六都規劃三座生殖的廚藝廠 對不對有嘛 對不對共同珍珠廠嗎不是 生殖的廚藝廠我去查不清楚 剛才討論的地方有嘛生殖能源中心嗎 是 好生殖廚藝廠嘛 現在欠少了一座啦"},{"start":468.271,"end":493.774,"text":"跟委員報告目前運作中的就是桃園生殖能源中心他生熟廚餘都可以處理一天135噸那個是我當局長的時候花包的我在桃園當過局長跟委員報告那台中市那一座廠是只有處理生廚餘的部分但目前他在規劃是不是也能夠添加一些熟廚餘那台中市現在非常努力在處理這個部分我們也協助台中市環保局面對這個議題"},{"start":494.975,"end":519.525,"text":"那另外已經花包中的有籃頭有100噸現在在上網招標中那大概兩年後會蓋好另外台南有一個160噸的高雄有一個150噸的也在規劃中那也可能會是在117年興建完成那個次長這個是在108年的時候農業部跟環境部對外公開的我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":521.021,"end":546.006,"text":"今天為什麼政策基於風險的管控要做一個落日如果你不做落日的話那個廚餘都跑到養豬場去了啦所以這些民間的在利用設施沒有量能收不到廚餘啦那今天政府已經拍板了一年的轉型期之後就落日所以市場已經看到這樣的一個商機那我們地方政府也看到這樣的在利用必須要新設所以環境部回來協助地方政府加速"},{"start":547.066,"end":563.698,"text":"這個政策要趕快落實因為目前進度是落後的啦那我們現在現在就是要再利用嘛 對不對日本最成功的是什麼就是飼料化 對不對我看前幾天有立委跟環境部還一起農業部員去嗎去日本考察對不對"},{"start":564.622,"end":581.407,"text":"我們農業部安排的是農業部安排那回來做了那個做了檢討報告了嗎怎麼去學習日本日本飼料化做得很成功是因為什麼他有飼料的集中處理處理廠對不對那台灣到現在還沒有我想日本能夠成功基本上除了料園第二個部分就是"},{"start":581.887,"end":605.794,"text":"他們在廚藝的分類做得相當不錯他們的家戶廚藝是直接進到垃圾場去的他們用的是事業廚藝還有食品廠的一個下腳料的部分那相關的這個部分我想我們都已經有一個內部的資料然後後續我想我們會參照這樣的一個精神來協助一些共同珍珠中心願意的話能夠轉型成為一個廚藝的飼料廠"},{"start":607.654,"end":629.65,"text":"就是我們如果學其他國家做的地方我跟委員補充報告一下喔日本他的家戶廚餘全部不分類直接送焚化爐這不是你要學的啦我們要學的是我們要讓我們的廚餘走在利用所以我們會走生殖能源設施剛剛委員關心的部分另外黑水門或者是堆毀的在利用這個是我們要鼓勵的我們不希望他都用焚化爐來處理廚餘"},{"start":630.851,"end":640.795,"text":"所以這大概有三個嘛我們現在學的一個日本這個所謂的飼料化你們也去考察嘛對不對當然有人家好的地方我們現在欠的就是至少至少有一個我們飼料化集中水養這樣不行嗎"},{"start":642.557,"end":668.723,"text":"我去查了沒有嘛 這個可能要考慮你剛剛一直在講了 他的能源化他肥料化 然後講我們都是可以學的就是人家成功我們盡快我們把這個做好 那我們廚藝就減少嘛這是最根本的 那我們時間再薄 趕快做好不好那我剛剛提兩個都是非常急的喔怎麼樣讓廚藝可以運得出去 我們要多幫忙讓這個團散業者問題也可以解決特別重要的 學生營養餐不要上架好不好拜託一下 謝謝"},{"start":673.206,"end":673.449,"text":"好 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到的這個廚餘養豬的問題"},{"start":24.773,"end":51.988,"text":"還是要再進一步請教就你剛剛的報告裡頭我想要釐清幾個問題就是說2027年開始我們就全面禁止廚餘養豬所以過去的那個已經正式申請合法廚餘養豬的現在台灣大概還有420間嘛這420間的養豬場他們的廚餘蒸煮設備你現在說明年一定要把它全部拆完對不對"},{"start":52.828,"end":71.989,"text":"過去這一些人是因為我們的政策支持所以他去申請了合法的廚餘蒸煮設備現在政策轉彎要求他們明年就要把它全部拆除請問這個損失是算在誰身上是豬農自己要負責嗎還是政府會有一些相關的補貼第二個"},{"start":73.666,"end":88.54,"text":"接下來的這一些全面禁止廚餘剛剛有提到了植物性的料源這件事情我一直還沒有聽得很完整就是說植物性的料源是可以未來持續用在養豬嗎還是它也是有一個過渡期"},{"start":89.341,"end":114.29,"text":"如果他可以持續用在養豬的話請問這些植物性的料源要不要蒸煮該不該蒸煮需不需要蒸煮如果不需要蒸煮的話直接拿下去餵豬豬可以吃得下去可以受得了嗎那如果需要蒸煮的話那你現在的這些蒸煮設備拆掉又或者是他上面就鋪了一層"},{"start":115.49,"end":143.322,"text":"植物性的的這個廚餘下面還是一些家用的或者是什麼樣的這些肉的這些的廚餘該如何追緝該如何管來部長第一個我跟委員報告就是有關於廚餘養豬的部分珍珠設備一定要就是轉成飼料的話他要拆除但是我們對應的補助是30萬到300萬的一個一個衛視系統的一個補助等於說是取代他的"},{"start":144.102,"end":172.451,"text":"一個增組設備的部分他本來所以你還是要補助他去購買其他的設備就是對 就是衛視設備飼料的衛視設備根據規模30萬到300萬等於說用替代的方式來取代他目前的第二個部分 植物性料源是一直都是可以使用我們從來沒有禁止過那委員說得很好就是說未來增組設備我們一定要拆掉如果不拆的話讓他增植物性料源在原來的場域增組的話"},{"start":173.211,"end":201.024,"text":"就很有可能造成他又做一個非法的廚餘的使用所以我們現在會規劃有一些共同的類似共同的現在目前苗栗的一個共同增儲中心是不是有機會把它變成一個植物性料園或是廚餘的飼料的一個加工廠我們希望用這樣的方式來提供給豬農部長您剛剛講苗栗這個是統一的增儲中心嗎這個是屬於苗栗縣政府的還是是屬於中央的私人的"},{"start":201.764,"end":227.616,"text":"私人的珍珠中心那可是你們現在又講說珍珠中心你們要未來要把它統一轉換成EcoFit那這個跟你原來的跟你剛剛講的前面的政策有沒有互相的矛盾共同珍珠中心那你如果說可以用共同珍珠中心珍珠好去提供給豬農去提供來這些不管是這個植物性的料源或者是家用的"},{"start":228.769,"end":251.079,"text":"還是說以後都只有植物性的家用的完全都不能做 家用完全是不能用的好所以你只有植物性的植物性的透過這個珍珠中心的部分來提供給豬農去養豬不一定是只有苗栗這個廠因為植物性的料園如果有願意成立一個共同珍珠只有植物性料園的部分我們是很樂意來輔導的"},{"start":252.439,"end":260.325,"text":"那另外現在有的共同政府中心我們會把他復到轉型成為廚餘的飼料化工廠這是兩件不同的事情"},{"start":261.209,"end":282.128,"text":"那你覺得有沒有可能會有人鑽這個漏洞比如說我上面就鋪了一層厚厚的植物性料園下面還是廚餘你又看不出來你又不能每一桶每一桶翻箱來檢查所以這個就是說我們要用共同的珍珠中心因為共同的珍珠中心它不需要那麼多廠那樣子的話集合就可以很容易集合的到"},{"start":282.719,"end":303.009,"text":"所以這個集合是你們集合還是是環境部我想是環境部跟我們我想還有地方政府最主要是地方政府要集合我想我們中央跟地方一定跨部會一定會一起所以這個管理辦法有設計好了嗎現在還在討論因為現在還在討論包括其實部長我要談的就是說包括你們講這個GPS"},{"start":307.608,"end":336.481,"text":"用GPS去追蹤到底你的這些植物性的料源從哪裡收植物性的料源需不需要裝GPS目前看起來好像沒有嘛沒有 在明年的過渡期的話他不會只在植物性料源他也會在一些事業廚餘那這個廚餘的車子一定要裝GPS更重要的是這些廚餘的車子去哪邊收他一定要先提出一個清單由環境部跟地方政府確認過以後還可以"},{"start":337.381,"end":350.595,"text":"部長所以你未來會是植物性的料源跟事業廢棄物事業的廚餘都是同一個一套設備在收嘛是不是所以你的植物性料源有可能那個桶子裡頭其實它也曾經裝過了事業的廚餘對"},{"start":354.369,"end":379.557,"text":"那你還是把它混雜在一起啊這是過渡期是可以因為過渡期是可以廚餘養豬可以用事業廚餘所以我剛就點到了這個問題你在過渡期裡頭你應該要怎麼樣的去做管理以免交叉感染了解那這個管理的模式跟運作的方式我覺得這個可能也是農業部一個很頭痛或者是應該要趕快及手去處理的包括你們跟環境部之間應該要處理的"},{"start":381.397,"end":401.99,"text":"一個很重要的核心議題如何避免交叉感染如何的有效的把這一些的事業廚餘或者是植物性的料源做很清楚的分類讓它能夠用在可以使用的地方那剛剛我們講的EcoFit的這些未來的把它轉換成飼料這個進程這個規劃這個設廠建置其實都需要兩三年的時間"},{"start":407.714,"end":436.506,"text":"那你很快的明年年底就不能再用廚餘養豬了到你的新的Eco-Feed的廠建之好這中間會有一到兩年的gap那這個要如何去補足如何去處理這件事情我想這個也要有賴農業部跟環境部去做更進一步的相關的規劃好那接下來因為時間剩下不多我要請教一下菲律賓現在禁止台灣的豬肉進口我想請教這是防疫的考量還是政治的考量"},{"start":437.163,"end":461.702,"text":"第一個部分是防疫的考量因為一般生鮮豬肉部分如果說你是疫區的話那相關的根據WHO規範是不可以輸出的所以我們也是主動停止發這個證但是加工用的部分是還可以的包括日本包括新加坡所以是生鮮不行但是加工的是還可以要看國家日本是同意的然後新加坡也同意"},{"start":462.623,"end":489.517,"text":"这两个最主要的都同意所以刚刚部长您讲到日本同意新加坡同意是加工的加工的这些肉品是可以的所以它不会产生我们所谓一连串的骨牌效应也不会对于台湾的这些猪肉出口的信誉造成重大的影响因为我看农业部大概对于这个评估因为好像你们认为我们出口菲律宾其实量是非常少的所以对于整个出口的影响是非常的低但是我担心的是整个"},{"start":490.177,"end":517.186,"text":"政治的考量或者是整個骨牌效益所以我這個還是要請部長您再更明確的回答一下我第一個部分就是生鮮的豬肉基本上禁止不同的國家禁止禁止進入他的國家是因為WHO的規範是一個防疫的考量但是加工的部分因為你也是一個防疫因為你加工以後是可以的部分那相關的日本新加坡"},{"start":518.727,"end":525.796,"text":"這個國家都同意我們去所以沒有所謂的政治的考量好 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台中市最近的這個缺口就"},{"start":2086.339,"end":2109.593,"text":"這幾個月就相對的比較大所以目前的15個縣市大概都沒有佔據的缺口的問題大概7個縣市有這個垃圾量缺口的問題所以他只能說希望量能可以上來或是透過調度來做個處理目前的處理的規劃的方式到為什麼說我們到年底有信心這個是各縣市跟我們匯報出來我們討論出來的一個結果他包含了焚化"},{"start":2111.054,"end":2134.511,"text":"打包 暫時打包 暫時打包起來或是說復土掩埋起來所以這個量大概各個縣市都有提出他們的一個想法那我們也有經費來協助他們來協處這個事情雖然說我們的經費未來這樣的一個多元垃圾處理方案可能就沒有那麼的多但是目前按照這個規劃的方案到年底預算上是沒有問題的那另外一個是我們在今年"},{"start":2135.111,"end":2150.613,"text":"由於今年的秋天非常的熱有史以來75年來最熱的秋天又很這個乾燥又不下雨的日數又特別的多所以就造成說我們有很多的掩埋場甚至台南的後壁的烏樹林造成這個大火"},{"start":2150.973,"end":2178.384,"text":"那這個大火引發了委員會有很多的委員對這個關心那事實上也謝謝委員的一些提議跟建議所以我們也發現我們台灣過去對於這個大型災害的垃圾堆置的確是就是盡量堆因為我們過去都沒有考慮到這樣的方式各縣市也沒有這樣的一個土地讓可以暫時堆所以每一個都臨時暫時所以本部已經邀請專家學者我們研議了一個方案同時我們也派同仁到日本去實際上跟他們的專家去做討論"},{"start":2179.304,"end":2195.69,"text":"那預計呢我們二月底我們就會對外來發布然後也會找各式各樣的大家來能夠提供更多的意見因為這個也需要地方政府來支持因為這個過去的這個用地來說的話可能都要蓋大樓蓋新的建設沒有人要蓋這個站置的用地喔所以這個部分我們會來處理"},{"start":2196.79,"end":2224.137,"text":"第二個呢我們也會跨單位環保單位跟消防單位來合作因為烏樹林這個大火齁其實我到現場去了兩次要救是非常困難的只能透過傳統的方式不斷地灑水不斷地挖讓它降溫因為裡面的溫度四五百度齁基本上都是可能有人命的救消防人員的這個生命的安全的問題所以我們希望有沒有更好的方式來針對大型的火災能夠來救火這個要大家來努力我們也是會"},{"start":2224.677,"end":2243.906,"text":"明年的四五月會來開這個會那我們也會找專家特別來先研究這樣的一個內容那另外一個呢是大家最關心的事業廢棄物這個經濟部是主管事業廢棄物的處理那目前大概一年1700多萬噸那目前呢要處理的量大概是200多萬噸是可燃性的事業廢棄物大概是244.5萬噸現在呢"},{"start":2246.607,"end":2263.622,"text":"多195萬噸是進到公有焚化爐其他的部分包含了焚化民營的焚化還有SRF是36.7萬噸還有0.7萬度是暫存所以基本上的我們預估未來的量應該是可以到達平衡的不過呢其實各位可以看得出來因為我的焚化爐"},{"start":2264.382,"end":2292.901,"text":"封阿魯如果是沒有採取這個ROT或是RTO的話其實它就會造成地方的財政的很大的一個壓力所以目前大概都是公民會委外民營的方式民營可能會燒一點這個失業廢棄物來能夠獲取平衡但是如果說這個東西變成是地方政府的支出的話那會非常的大目前的大多數都採用這樣的說法所以兼收家務垃圾跟可燃一般失業廢棄物目前是台灣現在或是國際上必要的營運的一個模式"},{"start":2294.062,"end":2321.042,"text":"大家最關心的SRF去年我們本人上任之後其實針對這個問題也感謝大家給我們很多的批評指教那現在呢經過我們很努力的一家一家的清查輔導現在呢也跟各位報告因為經過我的白皮書之後這個SRF已經相對的透明公開治理而且朝向一個正面的發展所以目前來看的話這個已經逐步的上軌道當然我認為還是有進步的空間我們會努力來做目前的量能稍微平衡而且他的這個"},{"start":2321.823,"end":2338.645,"text":"稍微有一點下降量有一點下降但是以這個長遠來看的話其實SRF如果說在這個管理處理的好它就是一個資源回收的資源循環的一種方式我們還是鼓勵事業廢棄物能夠多採行SRF甚至我們也鼓勵一些SRF的業者"},{"start":2339.326,"end":2356.113,"text":"能夠加嚴主動更加嚴比一般的我們現在的標準更加嚴的一個做法能夠來管控各種的風險目前呢我們都有比照分化爐一樣的一個標準來推動那未來呢也可能會再更加嚴所以目前來看的話整個管理的情形品質包含的供率"},{"start":2356.633,"end":2383.041,"text":"淨熱值都有顯著的一個改善所以各位我們過去台灣造成SRF的爭議現在可以說是告一段落了但是我相信我們還有努力的空間那最重要的是說我們的垃圾不是只有這種所謂的廢棄物而已還有營建土石方營建土石方為兩種營建土石方跟營建剩餘土石方還有營建廢棄物目前我們台灣的產生的量是4000多萬方非常的大量 非常大量可是呢 土質廠嚴重不足"},{"start":2384.421,"end":2409.552,"text":"因為這個在各個都會地區縣市地方隨著人口的增加都會變設為零幣設施然後另外一個加上區域的不平衡很多的縣市都是往別的縣市去偷盜亂送的所以產生出我們過去這麼多年這是台灣長期以來的一個問題所以我們跟跨部會包含了環境部內政部還有經濟部都有很努力的在弄我們大概發現三個漏洞一個漏洞是"},{"start":2411.514,"end":2427.896,"text":"容易混在一起被掩埋第二個是它運送的時候土石方沒有GPS第三個去化的點沒有追蹤到所以我們後來把這個流向重新再跨部會針對營建工程 拆除工程 裝修工程我們設計了土石方的交換"},{"start":2429.117,"end":2453.51,"text":"結合建管的程序工地的分類然後把這個營建土石房跟廢棄物透過土質廠混合物的分類廠跟廢棄物的掩埋廠去做更好的最後的一個使用也就是說源頭我們確定好我們就可以來來管理做這個事情那現在呢其實我們在今年的時候跨行政院也提出了一個這個方案也跟各位委員報告這個是我們過去台灣幾十年來幾十年這個問題不是這十年來出這個問題是台灣從一開始"},{"start":2457.592,"end":2473.605,"text":"有這個營建都更都從來沒有面對這個問題的現象那我們終於提出了一個跨政府的一個方案所以我們目前包含了環境部主導廢棄物的管理方案跟內政部主導的營建剩餘土石方的處理方案我們也跟各地方政府也建構這個平台"},{"start":2475.106,"end":2499.29,"text":"那目前有四個方向一個是去化的量能要增加第二個管理的強度包含了這個所謂的GPS土方的電子連單還有智慧圍籬等於是說所有的這個有人想要做壞事的話都很容易被抓到然後第四個就是修法的一個作業我會很簡單的跟大家說明清楚第一個呢是我們去化量經由那個內政部還有交通部等等我們跨部位"},{"start":2500.13,"end":2519.495,"text":"等於是說我們預估去化量目前盤點的量各個縣市加起來可以由一萬五千多萬方的量那這個就需要我們未來逐步的去開發如果這個開發的量夠的話去化就有機會那就可以減少這樣的一個問題所以我們要拓增它的去化的量能"},{"start":2520.055,"end":2548.861,"text":"第二個是我們鼓勵營建工地要現場的分類過去就直接打一打就變成一個廢棄物了可是我們最近也感謝衛福部防疫中心CDC的新建工程他完全拆得非常的細非常的細大概有最後大概只有廢棄物值剩下20-30%左右所以基本上全回收變成下一個新的房子這個就是城市採礦這個是我們目前會大力的鼓勵的一個方式那這個是在我們本部的循環再設計中心"},{"start":2549.281,"end":2577.558,"text":"有一個營建循環再設計展也歡迎各位委員大家可以去參觀這個裡面就有這樣的一個案例讓大家可以清楚我們會積極的鼓勵這樣的案例越來越多那另外一個呢是智慧圍籬齁因為其實很多的這個挖的亂挖亂到其實都是覺得抓不到但是目前呢我們的確測試了幾個智慧圍籬的方式但是現在還沒有全面裝我們認為這是一個有效的方式尤其是我們規劃的一個方式總共要投入23.5億的經費"},{"start":2579.139,"end":2591.344,"text":"那這個呢是有機會可以很快速的抓到不會像現在到了之後在事後的再做一個處理那另外一個呢這個有什麼用呢因為本部呢其實從升格以來這兩年我們跟檢警環調合作我們總共破壞了117件起訴了11000多人然後總共大概41億齁"},{"start":2599.628,"end":2622.928,"text":"當然我所知道的是當然這裡面只有一部分而已還很多犯罪人還是繼續在做但是呢我們這樣的一個決心是非常的堅定的也請各位委員給我們很大力的支持當然這個是也會承受很多這個不必要的壓力我們會努力挺下去也希望委員可以支持我們第二個呢是智慧圍籬呢是中央跟地方一起合作我們中央會建1400個地方另外一個設施有800處所以未來呢"},{"start":2624.489,"end":2651.785,"text":"包含了這個只要偷盜亂盜它的這個GPS或是我們會結合CCTV一起來那會中央跟地方一起來打擊這種環保犯罪當然這個預算我剛才講過其實今年我們編列了5億多當然這個部分是屬於新增的預算到目前的一個情況明年1月1號還是沒辦法執行所以還請大院給我們多支持這個未來預算如果審定的話我們可以早一點來做這個事情那另外一個呢我們雙法的推動進度其實我們從5月預告"},{"start":2653.986,"end":2668.818,"text":"10月23就送行政院審查那目前呢已經接近完成的一個階段我們希望趕快的能夠院內最後通過趕快送到立法院來審議也拜託委員要給我們支持最主要是這個是一個棍子一個羅橫我過去那麼多年我們"},{"start":2669.738,"end":2695.574,"text":"曾經兩法合一現在我們兩法拆開來一個是棍子一個胡蘿蔔一邊是全循環的管理一個就是加重刑罰或生產者的責任甚至到如果亂倒到農地會加50%的刑責還罰金所以這個部分是我們一起我們的堅定的態度那另外一個是很重要的其實我們後面的那個都是事後的管理源頭的減量的行動才是最重要的"},{"start":2695.854,"end":2715.411,"text":"所以我們也發現說其實我們國人對這樣的支持本部做了一些民調發現國人對源頭減量是支持的但是要做就會不一樣的意見例如說我們旅宿業的減量大家會覺得跟我習慣不一樣很麻煩等等等等我們認為這個是需要一個建立一個文化跟制度制度的部分"},{"start":2716.351,"end":2745.231,"text":"這個包含了網購外送業者的激增也是讓我們的垃圾量激增的很大的一個原因所以我們需要制度化的改變那我知道大院也針對外送平台進行一些處理也拜託大院給我們支持也通過法規上面能夠限制他們能夠不要製造那麼多的垃圾同時透過循環的方式來做處理第二個是文化的素養這個是最困難的地方以建國花市為例我大概在年初的時候發現雖然大家都很愛花草可是"},{"start":2746.272,"end":2771.786,"text":"願意自己帶這個塑膠袋的人大概只有100個只有1.5個人所以大多數是用又大又超大型的巨型的塑膠袋去買花這個是一個很大的一個諷刺啦那我們過去推的那麼簡碩其實一個花市這個全亞洲最大的一個花市竟然是這麼的不環保所以我們就下定決心我們要以這個改造那個建國的花市為一個目標目前呢我們每個禮拜"},{"start":2772.967,"end":2791.665,"text":"六日都有人在那個地方一步一步的改變現在大概是有大概一成左右人去做這樣的東西而且我們獲得企業、學校、環團一起來做當然我必須說我還需要更多的人手一起來協助所以委員如果有機會的話可以歡迎一起來我們大家都可以努力做一點就可以改變很多"},{"start":2792.225,"end":2809.878,"text":"那目前呢這個民眾開始知道我們做這個事之後大概已經顯著提升大概10%左右願意自己帶環保帶那我們現場也有提供各種的環保帶甚至讓大家家裡不用的主動拿出來所以這個呢還有待提升啦還真的還需要大家一起努力等於是攤商減碩"},{"start":2810.819,"end":2832.069,"text":"目前的攤商九成支持支持我們特別去掛出來我如果各位有計畫會的話可以去看但是我也必須承認民眾嘴巴講做很難所以我們一定要一步一步的我還要花一年的時間那個地方改造成功我就有底氣去做各式各樣的改變所以也請大院給我們支持那最後呢也跟各位報告我們"},{"start":2833.269,"end":2846.502,"text":"還是承諾115年底妥善解決垃圾裸露的處置的堆置第二個呢我們一定緩解警調結盟這個是我們的決心我們不會懼怕任何破壞環境的人那個就是一種罪我們會堅定的來處理"},{"start":2848.403,"end":2869.402,"text":"不管藍綠白全部移送法辦這是我們的態度第三個呢這個雙法能夠重新建置是最重要的而且呢他會把廢棄物當成資源看待也就是說希望我們在明年這個時候來貴院報告的時候我們可以說我們不是處理垃圾山是廢棄物是資源怎麼樣做更好的一個使用我們徹底來改善垃圾的一個問題"},{"start":2870.203,"end":2888.51,"text":"那最重要的是也請大院給我們115年度新增的預算可以給我們一些支持我們會啟動圍籬跟營建平台因為營建平台也需要我們來協助地方那個都屬於一個新增的計畫我們早一點做 早一點處理就可以完成環境治理的一個拼圖感謝 謝謝好 謝謝彭部長報告那請經濟部代表報告"},{"start":2905.158,"end":2923.442,"text":"主席各位委員那接下來的話就由經濟部這邊來報告有關於工業廢棄物的這個去化的這個情形那根據估計這個工業的廢棄物它的這個每這個113年的這個產生量大概是1711萬公噸"},{"start":2927.148,"end":2944.185,"text":"那這個業者依據這個工業廢棄物然後再去做廢棄物的再利用到目前為止統計已經達到1452萬公噸也就是說在所有的工業廢棄物裡面大概是八成五都已經來做這個再利用的處理"},{"start":2946.431,"end":2961.661,"text":"根據廢棄物再利用的管理辦法目前大概有三種工業廢棄物的處理方式分別是自行再利用、公告再利用以及許可再利用有三種"},{"start":2962.702,"end":2991.128,"text":"那所謂自行再利用的話就是工業廢棄物在廠區內再作為這個燃料或重新再返回製程的使用那這個大概我們估計每年的這個使用量大概是195萬公噸那第二種叫做公告再利用公告再利用目前本部有規範的有52項這個公告再利用的這個方式例如說像這個煤灰可以作為這個水泥或者是"},{"start":2991.755,"end":2993.724,"text":"一般混凝土的這個原料"},{"start":2994.594,"end":3020.236,"text":"那淨水的污泥可以用來產製紅磚等等這樣的一種公告再利用的方式那經統計這樣每年的處理的量大概是1144.3萬的公噸那第三種的話就是說在這個公告再利用沒有規範的範圍之內的那本部在個案來予以核准的這種方式例如說像半導體業的這個佛化"},{"start":3023.199,"end":3033.893,"text":"蓋的污泥就可以用來作為這個人工的飲食作為鋼鐵業的鑄完劑的使用等等的這樣的一種用途經統計這每年的使用量大概是112.7萬公噸"},{"start":3036.803,"end":3066.223,"text":"那本部对于这个再利用的这个处理一定会采取严格的这个查核的措施包括它的生产它的使用的记录以及最终地点的这样的一个追踪等等如果有违反规定那我们就会另起停止收受废弃物最重的话我们也会来废止再利用的许可并通知环保机关来进行查处每年查核的这个加次在360家以上"},{"start":3067.163,"end":3077.629,"text":"除此之外,本部也推動能資源的整合目的就是希望透過區域,廢棄物可以當成另外一個工廠的資源使用到目前為止,我們推動了29個產業園區進行上下游之間的能資源整合"},{"start":3091.576,"end":3120.276,"text":"鏈結量達到546萬公噸也就是說潛在的就減少了546萬公噸的這個工廠廢棄物那很重要的一個產出的項目就是所謂的再生力量這些無機的這些廢棄物產生了這些再生的這些力量本部也特別的針對再生力量的去化進行了這些推廣例如說這些再生力量可以用於道路"},{"start":3122.097,"end":3140.396,"text":"這樣的一個瀝青的鋪面或者是管溝回填的時候可以去這個來穩定的去去化爐渣那目前為止我們最高最高已經可以替代這原生的這個砂石百分之百都可以採用這個再生力量來取代"},{"start":3141.477,"end":3156.761,"text":"那未來本部會來持續的來精進相關的這個循環這個材料的這個加值以及這個循環體系的一個韌性來加速來去化這些相關的這個事業的廢棄物那最後一個結語我們從91年當時我們的這個事業廢棄物的一個去化是有56%作為這個再利用的這個用途"},{"start":3167.543,"end":3181.009,"text":"到目前為止已經有達到85%了所以盡量能夠去減少這個事業廢棄物沒有辦法回到這個在利用的這樣一個途徑那當然最源頭的怎麼樣能夠去讓事業輔導他能夠採用綠色的設計或者是源頭的減量來減少這個事業廢棄物的發生這個我們會持續的來予輔導以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":3191.547,"end":3213.767,"text":"好謝謝邱署長有關本次會議各項書面資料經歷列入記錄刊登公報現在開始開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請上會前提出預期不受理"},{"start":3214.768,"end":3224.54,"text":"暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案11點截止收案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席有請部長有請彭部長"},{"start":3237.61,"end":3241.912,"text":"部長2027年就要全面禁止廚餘養豬了如果你現在沒辦法防止邊境或是海關來完全杜絕可能進入還有病毒的肉品也許現在這是唯一的方法我在這裡想要請教部長就是說這個禁止廚餘養豬您禁的是家戶廚餘還是也包含的事業廚餘"},{"start":3258.764,"end":3270.949,"text":"目前未來是全禁那當然有一些植物性的那個例如說像有些生產的事業它產生的這個植物性的渣是還是可以用的好那請部長看一下這張圖那我這樣問的理由是因為全國每天除以產生是2115噸是家戶的593噸加上養豬外的其他利用除以791再加上事業731噸但是2026年底明年底"},{"start":3288.758,"end":3296.527,"text":"這個環境部的總設施量才有1720噸也就是說在過一整年之後才可能達到2119噸那麼是否這個2027年累積的所有的廚餘還有多的395噸廚餘就必須靠焚化跟掩埋了"},{"start":3307.198,"end":3320.062,"text":"那但是現在這個政府這個部分這個焚化跟掩埋還是量能不足你現在的數字是284那我估計每天還多了這個100萬噸100噸對不起100噸那你要怎麼處理呢能夠繼續燒嗎有辦法繼續燒嗎好 鮑委員那個我們其實針對這個問題焚化爐到底能不能燒像日本的江戶廚餘是全部到焚化爐燒的那我們其實目前有經過專家評估過如果處理妥當大概最多就10%"},{"start":3335.427,"end":3338.79,"text":"這是你們的報告你是說你只有284那現在我算一算就是還不夠嘛所以一定還有這個沒有辦法處理的那我為什麼在意這個焚化跟掩埋呢因為焚化會有大躍興的疑慮我之前質詢你你有說廚餘只要水瀝乾就不會有這個大躍興問題但每個地方政府真的都做得到嗎事實上不是如此因為台中市上禮拜才開始買這個租用這個廚餘脫水機"},{"start":3362.33,"end":3365.392,"text":"去除水分表示說之前沒有辦法完全脫乾其他地方當然也一樣這是第一個有關這個焚化的部分第二個掩埋還有高風險因為掩埋現在都在郊外地區那還是可能有野生動物如果你沒有做好防護的措施"},{"start":3381.201,"end":3395.571,"text":"也是都要去翻動啊那翻動他就可能繼續傳播那個病毒這也是這個過去也是民進黨從上到下在攻擊台東市政府的一個說法嘛那我們看到西班牙這一次的那個豬瘟這個爆發那他的部長加薩隆尼亞說可能是某頭野豬誤食自國外這個吸入然後這個污染的這個食物然後引發後續的傳播所以部長您承諾的每個月都會監測焚化爐的這個廚餘的代澳鑫變化量這個措施"},{"start":3411.581,"end":3425.175,"text":"會持續多久?第一個是野豬的部分因為有些縣市還是有掩埋那這個部分現在全面加裝電網像台中那個廠就有電網等於是豬去會被電到不會讓他進去第一個"},{"start":3427.037,"end":3453.626,"text":"那你還有這個在測量你承諾的這個嗎我其實是說最近的這一次要他們因為一年的每一個焚化爐要測兩次我那時候是說的是說未來這一個月要他們再多測一次一個月一年兩次太少了吧對我們會評估因為也不知道委員那個一次也要花20萬所以基本上我們會再評估說到底會加測目前我們現在有全面的都叫他們量總共有那個爐子大概"},{"start":3455.087,"end":3474.039,"text":"幾個四五十個吧那目前呢量的結果我們看到一些結果甚至他因為這個時候要進廚餘所以大家比較小心的去燒所以目前呢有幾個縣市他的廚餘的大腰心的量比平均值還要低很多我在剛剛你聽你說你覺得用電網就可以全面阻擋這個可能這個也是動物去翻洞那個掩埋場的這個部分嗎對目前這個是農業部的那個動保處你會去電視做檢查嗎這個方法看有效嗎"},{"start":3480.363,"end":3483.826,"text":"這個是他們給我們一些建議避免野豬能夠去翻冬C月豬隻禁運禁載嘛那農業部有說會擴大這個積壓額的供應量但事實上屠宰量受影響為什麼因為過去拿來當廚餘養豬的動物性肺渣下腳料也就是雞爪等等因為沒有辦法拿去餵豬了所以影響屠宰量"},{"start":3501.001,"end":3503.823,"text":"那目前有報導指出未來禁止全面處於養豬的積壓額等這些禽類的下繳料要額外有清運處理的話每隻雞至少會漲價10塊錢以上請問農業部你有跟農業部討論過這件事嗎你可以避免嗎因為物價膨脹大家都有感那你要繼續讓這些積壓額等繼續漲價嗎"},{"start":3525.547,"end":3532.77,"text":"包委員這個的處理它的去化是農業部他們有一個化製廠在處理不是我們這邊來最後處理你們要關心就是說因為要處理然後就是變成說你這個費用是上漲的部長請你繼續看這張圖片12月5號環境部的記者會上把家戶處理就是小吃攤公寓大樓等處理歸類為不可養豬這個OK"},{"start":3549.557,"end":3554.158,"text":"那現在遇到的問題是這個環境部在簡報上規範分流竟然是讓公寓大樓的廚藝是交由已清業者來處理那麼請問原本跟這個公寓大樓簽約的那個秉清業者呢只要是合法清除業就是可以部長現在的問題就是說你禁止這個養豬之後那但我先告訴你秉清業者他成本增加很多為什麼因為他現在跟簽約的價格他沒有辦法他會賠錢而且他需要排隊進場"},{"start":3578.004,"end":3598.566,"text":"他排隊等一下我跟你講排隊三四小時他如果進不了場他還必須找個地方暫時這個堆置所以他們就跟這個社區大樓說他們沒有辦法去做了因為你的報告就寫你看你這張圖公寓大樓是要已清啊所以他們就把這個當個藉口他們不做了那如果這個公寓大樓又轉到已清去已清說他們沒有辦法接新客戶"},{"start":3599.147,"end":3613.954,"text":"好那所以現在不是以著社區我現在已經現在很多社區的這個陳情了所以你這個分流從頭到尾都沒有寫秉清那如果真的秉清可以你就把它放上去啊你沒有放上去結果部長你知道放在什麼地方嗎部長非常可笑你看下一頁常見問答那這個重要的問題你寫就值得"},{"start":3622.13,"end":3632.856,"text":"可是他們問秉清不可以嗎然後你們回答就是說只要合法機構都可以所以甲乙秉清都能夠再廚餘這個地方不是澄清地方這個地方是這個民眾的問答你把這個重要問題放在這個地方而且你那寫話這個寫東西很離譜都能再廚餘你沒有說再廚餘去焚化爐"},{"start":3645.851,"end":3664.527,"text":"那現在就是這樣部長如果真的是如你說的都可以合法業者都可以因為每個公寓道還能夠簽約的對象等等是有限的啊那這個情況下是不是這樣子環境部你要嘛就是行文給這個這個清運業者啊不然就是折成地方政府這個行文給地方人說是可以的不要讓這個秉慶業者拿這個你們的簡報當藉口說他不做了"},{"start":3668.561,"end":3679.187,"text":"好 謝謝委員 建議這個部分我們上禮拜有兩次跟地方環保局有開過會那這個也做了一個修正今天就會發布出去你要修正嗎 你看這麼重要的問題你在簡報上是指定了已清這個是一個嚴重的錯誤那部長現在團散跟餐飲業面臨很大的壓力我先告訴你校園的團散發生什麼事因為他們為了排隊進這個焚化廠我剛剛講的每個要多花三到四小時那如果沒辦法進場要自己找地方放"},{"start":3694.935,"end":3700.318,"text":"那除了這個時間成本他回收作為混亂之外有些業者因為調不到車您知道嗎甚至以營養午餐的餐車再廚餘這種食安的疑慮都跑出來了你這個勢必要說小朋友的這個餐食的值餘量啊餐車可以再廚餘嗎因為他沒辦法了因為他等不到他進不去啊他排不到隊啊所以不等這個營養廚餘這個部分請你要務必注意"},{"start":3722.573,"end":3742.973,"text":"這個不得了 這個是跟食安市是違背的也跟委員報告我們上禮拜針對這個議題也請那個陳理事長跟我們各縣市環保局調那其實各縣市我在這邊都有報表哪個縣市有壓力的我們都知道陳理事長也有另外一個問題我先請教你原來廚餘處理有補貼你是不是要終止還是延長辦理基本上這個是到今年年底因為我們現在是中央應變中心還在開設當中"},{"start":3744.755,"end":3762.164,"text":"不補貼OK了 不過就是委託方他成本就增加這成本將會帶動什麼大概部長你心裡有數你剛剛講說陳理事長就餐食食品公會的全聯會理事長他的公司就是這樣他說以輕的報價是每公噸一萬三到一萬四可是你們環境部預期的是八千元"},{"start":3763.801,"end":3784.337,"text":"高差很大啊那這麼多的這個費用那你怎麼處理到最後你不要瘦了小孩子的這個營養餐啊營養午餐啊增加了國人負擔包委員我也請大家想一件事情就是說我們的所有廚餘喔就是所有的這個團散公餐有三成變的廚餘這個是我們是不是可以有更好改善的空間那第二個呢是這個的費用會處理我們現在"},{"start":3786.418,"end":3808.111,"text":"其實我們上禮拜也有跟陳理事長也有到我們的群組跟差很大 兩個人數字差很大基本上這個不是全台灣都這樣就是有些縣市它的確會遇到一些短時間的一個陣痛部長你還在處理就對了各縣市都在處理當中當廚餘沒有去處 沒有去的地方然後它的輕運成本又提高你知道結果就是會有很多跟垃圾山一樣嘛 棄置廚餘嘛 就開始出現了"},{"start":3809.912,"end":3824.616,"text":"基本上任何的製造的垃圾就有一定的成本然後任何的餐廳它本身的垃圾也都說過已經在清除了部長那我在這裡最後談一個也是垃圾引起的問題台南市烏樹林廢棄物站製廠的事它總共燒了十幾天那天你跟我說明天會熄火後來我想想說已經燒得差不多了吧那當然你大概預期要熄火了那我向政事就是環境部要面對這次火災造成的嚴重污染問題請你看畫面你一邊看那我一邊講"},{"start":3837.779,"end":3858.596,"text":"整個站區長的周圍全部農地也有農民在工作那土地或這個地下水都可能有潛在的代澳新跟多路聯本請問部長環境部預計如何監測代澳新跟多路聯本多久一次這個部分那個台南市環保局他們已經在做了那我們也會要求他們把資料帶給我看"},{"start":3859.296,"end":3868.253,"text":"環保局很有問題等一下我再繼續跟您談就是說你要多久驗一次您覺得要多久驗一次你看到旁邊都是農地啊還有人在耕地然後燒了一塌糊塗燒了十幾天啊"},{"start":3870.212,"end":3892.218,"text":"這個部分我們會再跟他們做確認因為這個其實上禮拜很努力在第二個問題如果驗出來了你怎麼賠償農民還是要等他們自己去找國賠基本上我們有跟台南市環保局在討論這個事那他們也告訴說他們未來的規劃包含良策等等然後跟地方的在溝通部長還有你現在燒完的我一步一步來燒完的那個灰渣跟廢水你要怎麼處理"},{"start":3893.11,"end":3914.425,"text":"呃基本上那個現在我們都有補原來這個就有一定的補助的經費在處理這塊這塊的廢棄物因為台南市政府拿了3.4億的廢棄物處理但那是颱風之後結果這個事情就是台台南市環保局他找的地他跟國軍這個借用的地對無償借用的地然後現在超出火了他們不負責所以我上次就問你說那台南市環保局要不要開罰"},{"start":3915.606,"end":3927.594,"text":"要不要開罰 你叫他自己管 就叫他罰自己 你要出面啊這個部分他如果是最後的這個火災 他台南市政府有責任的話他們就會自己罰自己 他這個區長他挑的 他拿了政府的補助費3.4億 然後他處理結果出事了 他沒有責任嗎 不要告訴我行政機關沒有責任喔"},{"start":3936.218,"end":3951.821,"text":"他們等於是說到底失火的原因他不自己放火就沒事嗎不會自己放火啦但是他自己如果說違反了法令他自己要罰自己這個是明確的那另外一個你確定嗎他要自己罰自己當然這個因為他地方的開罰是他們自己我任何協調會記者他都不出現喔好那我要求說這個非常清楚上次有一個那個他們還回答我說要證明有空氣污染請問燒了十幾天還要證明有空氣污染嗎所以部長我要知道台南市環保局什麼時候開罰"},{"start":3965.664,"end":3988.515,"text":"罰多少錢然後他提出清運計劃沒有這個是地方的事務但是謝謝委員給我的建議但是你是長官啊我會去了解他們的狀況你敢辦 請問你台南到底有縮小勢力在保護他部長你敢辦台南市環保局嗎這已經太多累積這個是慣犯累犯了報告委員全台灣的只要有犯罪的都是我們會處理你說的 你剛剛報告說藍綠白都辦喔那台南市環保局請你盯著他從來不面對民意代表"},{"start":3993.497,"end":4007.308,"text":"台南市政府是面對台南市議會不是對立法院但是你可以去管啊你身為環境部啊台南市環保局如果做得不當你是否要去處理呢這個我們會努力去跟他們溝通因為他們的監管單位是台南市議會"},{"start":4008.527,"end":4034.038,"text":"部長你簡直說你在投降嗎?沒有沒有,不能這樣說,每個都有分工都有權責這件事太清楚了,他拿了3.4億的行政費用然後他去找了一塊地,還無償的,我問過國軍無償以後,然後這個堆配的很高,堆很高然後堆到很邊邊,然後非常危險然後居民之前就來告訴說會起火燃燒,我有告訴過你然後真的燃燒了,然後現在你告訴我"},{"start":4034.858,"end":4054.826,"text":"他們沒有辦法你只是監督他去處理嗎你這樣對得起台南市民嗎台南市民是最挺民進黨的你這樣對待他們對嗎我們會密切的去要求他正合的監測報告最後的罰則我們會來處理你報告的時候是非常清楚我希望你要有骨氣要有承擔的勇氣謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員發言請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":4069.236,"end":4071.999,"text":"主席麻煩我們的環境部部長請彭部長議員好部長早今天我要給你一個很大的肯定你在核電重啟環評的這一題上被媒體說管太多了可是我覺得你管得剛剛好因為核能安全跟環境是跨部會"},{"start":4089.127,"end":4117.782,"text":"跟世代影響的一個議題沒有人沒有任何部會都能夠去當局外人部長 三個月在野黨把設置後不會產生污染物質的光電板在環評法直接加嚴那以同一套的對環境影響更為嚴謹的標準來看的話那面對1984年開始運轉40年在國家公園周邊的河山要重啟的話還有核廢料的問題"},{"start":4118.522,"end":4119.205,"text":"我相信環評應該要更嚴謹"},{"start":4122.202,"end":4149.793,"text":"如果依據光電板現在設置環評的邏輯的話在野黨應該要支持所以我請部長講清楚超過年限已除役的核電廠要重設環境部的立場是什麼那輻射影響評估是核安會的責任但影響環境的專業在你這邊而且核能會的主委也說依法應由台電來請環境部評估那部長環境部能提供什麼樣專業建議台電有沒有找你開會了"},{"start":4150.613,"end":4172.13,"text":"包委員這個台電是目的事業機關機關我不用找他的開會我是直接跟核安會的主委我們有通過電話未來的分工那目前我們也跟委員報告這個還要延伸因為他們是核輻射的一個專業那對環境影響是我們這邊的專業所以我們現在有在討論說未來要如何分工要來如何處理"},{"start":4172.89,"end":4189.495,"text":"那目前因為這個他的許可最重要是他他要必須要負擔更多的責任這樣好部長你先請劉博先請經濟部代表協助我釐清一則新聞我也知道你今天事實上是不是來次長也是不是來部長來那個署長可是還是要來講這件事"},{"start":4191.209,"end":4201.992,"text":"因為媒體已經報導出來說期待核電加速運轉的民間團體轉述 轉述你經濟部經濟部認為核電廠再運轉只是原有機組的安檢換修不設計環評那我想請經濟部應該自己要去對媒體或者是今天在這邊講清楚啊超過40年原始設計的核電廠廚藝再運轉真的只有安檢"},{"start":4216.477,"end":4245.194,"text":"換修而已嗎這已經是登在媒體上經濟部自己有沒有去看要去回應如果他講錯的不對的你們要不要回應第二個問題是部分民間團體說經濟部把除以後再啟用要不要環評類比火力發電廠研議我就要問火力會產生污染可是會產生核廢料嗎不會嘛那有沒有核廢料風險評估的災害規模應該差很多吧你們認為可以直接類比的理由是什麼不懂"},{"start":4245.834,"end":4262.791,"text":"就是說怎麼可以去類比我們的火力發變這兩種不太同的一個等級另外除以後再運轉法律上到底算不算直接演繹是不是涉及重新授權你們要說明我會這樣問是因為我看到經濟部我們新修訂的核管法"},{"start":4264.173,"end":4284.154,"text":"新修訂的核管法及其辦法展開核一核二核三現況的一個評估那核電廠除役後要再啟動更複雜了那安檢應該只是第一步所以我要問最後一句經濟部現在經濟部是要等核安會提出完整需求才要來做後續的要不要環評的一個評估嗎"},{"start":4285.612,"end":4304.895,"text":"我相信你現在沒辦法回答請你們帶回去經濟部如果媒體報導的錯誤民間訴說的是錯誤為什麼不回應反正今天想讓你們在這邊回應清楚請你們要嘛對媒體會另外一個針對我剛剛問的這幾題那麻煩回覆到我們辦公室"},{"start":4306.209,"end":4325.556,"text":"我覺得如果不正確的真的都要回應報告委員因為那個民團他不是很懂得環評的定義啦那他用這樣的一個比喻是不對的是可是為什麼他說他轉述經濟部那經濟部為什麼都沒有回應呢所以我才想說今天有這個機會讓經濟部要做好好的回應那麻煩我們的署長請回謝謝部長賴總統的那個"},{"start":4335.238,"end":4351.725,"text":"也就是核能的三個核心安全無虞核廢料有解社會共識我認為你最近的發言就是在落實這三個核心因為現實是核二甘思的儲存潮要建制延拓了十年現在到現在還卡著"},{"start":4352.965,"end":4375.531,"text":"台灣現在的制度很魔幻要廚藝的核電廠要還平再多用20年的反而不用光電只要敏感區位就要還平那麼核三要再運轉的話不能只是修法說那我要延長20年就好了沒有制度配套也不能被說成說只是行政單位的安檢換修就好我認為法規未盡之處的話反而要更積極作為所以部長請你先做簡單"},{"start":4382.528,"end":4408.419,"text":"從環境單位你是一個環境部的最大的核廢料到此時此刻有最終處置的解方嗎目前我所知道是有些國家是開始有但是很多國家還是用乾式儲存槽放在那個地方那這個議題呢我們現在環境部也在研議當中就是說也剛剛謝謝委員剛剛提到的就是說因為很多的國家的環境部是管"},{"start":4408.919,"end":4428.521,"text":"核能安全的後端的處理那我們環境部是沒有這樣的機構例如說日本的環境省他就連核安的部分也管他大概有一千多人在裡面韓國也管然後很多的國家有環評的是他的核安就在他的裡面你現在完全還沒有有一些環境可是現在要講核三"},{"start":4429.282,"end":4443.902,"text":"所以接著兩個重點第一從你主管的環評法來看的話對核電廠除役後再啟動研議把它理解為新的權力授予能源設施設置的重新授權是否合一"},{"start":4444.443,"end":4471.683,"text":"我們正在演繹因為從這個字面解釋我同意委員的觀點但是我們現在環評法因為環評法的確是把光電拉得非常的嚴可是對於這種新的對 反正是沒有啊對 所以這個其實產生了一些落差所以我們的確在演繹第二個民間團體的對法規疑問是核管法的第六條第四項說運轉執照換發準用第五條第一項也就是準用建廠審核的要件其中包含"},{"start":4472.303,"end":4480.911,"text":"環境保護跟生態保育的影響要合乎相關法律那照這個邏輯運轉執照換發準用的建廠執照的一個規定就應該提出經環境部認可的環評的相關資料部長如果這樣的法規解釋是否合宜那環境部要怎麼去規劃上訴的一個環評資料"},{"start":4493.582,"end":4521.375,"text":"這個我也有想讀過的確我們是內部有討論說這樣的一個可能的問題然後比較各個國家因為我們沒有重新這個環評重啟要這個核能重啟要環評的一個經驗所以這個部分我們未來會跟核安會來討論說哪一個算是我們這邊的哪一個是他們那邊的所以最後我還是要強調你提出來的政策環評是建立社會共識不可少的一步讓意見能夠公開充分表達"},{"start":4522.495,"end":4542.847,"text":"核電重啟牽扯到風險不確定利益衝突還有世代正義的問題所以所有可能的影響跟真實的風險都必須要被評估被辯論被監督我希望提醒部長這一塊部長基隆這起廢油偷牌的事件"},{"start":4543.727,"end":4560.455,"text":"已經影響到基隆民生用水我有兩個問題要請教第一個問題是報導說業者長期用廠內油污水分離把分離後的還有污染成分的無味透明的廢水偷排到基隆河"},{"start":4561.976,"end":4590.443,"text":"還對外招攬生意五年不罰所得超過五千萬請問部長既然是五位透明但有污染成分為什麼一直沒被偵測到這次是業者失誤才爆出來嗎你認為這個問題出在哪邊未來要怎麼去處理因為這個抽水的這個供水區域的上游區的管理是基隆市政府所以他們其實應該要平常要積極的對於供水可能的上游因為旁邊的那個工業區還蠻多的其實他們應該我們有請他們一定要"},{"start":4591.963,"end":4612.768,"text":"這個強化這個稽查的頻率那這次有幾家他是自己排那這個是罪證確鑿被檢察官這個抓到所以這個的權責是基隆市政府可是為什麼偵查不到呢他竟然有污染成分而且事發地點就在淨水廠周邊所謂污染成分到底是什麼你們有沒有掌握他們的技術以及過去排放污水"},{"start":4613.988,"end":4635.797,"text":"這個污染的這個成分的這個東西對人體的危害是什麼有這個其實後來一開始有兩家被開罰因為他沒有在列管他並沒有來做申報所以已經被開罰了那這家是主要是後來我們透過一些跟檢察官那個細節我就不能對外說但是檢察官跟我們合作在一起有個平台就主動去偵查到他"},{"start":4636.496,"end":4656.309,"text":"可是部長這家是壘犯前次偷牌只罰5萬5這次是因為上新聞才準備重罰到千萬我問的是我們的裁罰的裁量怎麼會落差這麼的大你們去年去年底修正發布了違反水污染防治法"},{"start":4657.267,"end":4677.516,"text":"那個罰還的額度跟裁罰基準也有點才記點的一個副表那很完備但也相對複雜請問部長從去年到現在環境部有沒有檢視各縣市是否依這套標準準則來做裁罰你們要怎麼去協助地方做那個裁量又怎麼樣去做後續的那個檢視啊"},{"start":4678.356,"end":4703.727,"text":"好 包委員這個其實這裡面因為這次的水無法也要靠地方環保局在做所以因為我們剛過完那樣的東西未來我們會跟地方再去針對這個裁罰的量子因為全台灣不是只有基隆這個有風險還有很多地方所以這個我們會來我覺得部長不然就會變成上新聞兩千萬沒上新聞五萬五這不是制度該有的做法最後也請部長提供相關資料讓我們知道你們這一年來"},{"start":4704.318,"end":4719.671,"text":"怎麼去監督檢視各縣市是否用這個裁罰基準來做裁罰部長今年我們面對到的是天災人禍下的巨量的廢棄物的處置我很肯定你願意面對也在想辦法"},{"start":4720.091,"end":4742.017,"text":"但這幾個月我都聽到的答案幾乎都是一樣的 量能不足 招標不順所以只能先擺著 可是這不是解決 是拖著而已我先問進度跟時程 請部長直接回答 風災後的石棉屋跟太陽能板台中臨時處理的廚餘掩埋 目前進度到哪裡 能不能最終解決"},{"start":4743.317,"end":4767.748,"text":"太陽光電板沒有問題已經已經全面那石棉烏瓦呢石棉烏瓦已經都進到一個程序當中大概兩萬多台中臨時處理的那個廚餘掩埋呢廚餘掩埋它已經不進廚餘掩埋了它現在全部進去焚化那我最關心的還是花蓮光復鄉幾十萬噸的災後淤泥跟廢棄物現在難以篩分無法招標無力清潤"},{"start":4768.598,"end":4774.069,"text":"部長你們有沒有預估最糟的情況下對環境的衝擊是什麼到底要怎麼做"},{"start":4775.549,"end":4801.449,"text":"這個最重要是因為東部的這樣的業者處理的量能的確不足啦那我們現在雖然爭取到這個特別的條例的預算但是真的要去執行現在還沒有開始執行但是因為這個可能要跟地方來做合作那委員說到的問題我們現在正在面對當中所以現在我們也希望更好的業者能夠來協助來處理這個事情那請環境部把這幾項的處置的進度跟現況給我一個比較清楚的說明的資料第二步"},{"start":4802.169,"end":4822.381,"text":"我要問制度面事業廢棄物進一般家用的垃圾粉化爐現在的垃圾的熱值提升那粉化爐老舊縣市調度困難最後還是垃圾堆著風險只會累積所以我要具體要求是說我們的源頭減量不能再用後端處理落差到22倍"},{"start":4823.522,"end":4836,"text":"這是過往的平均的數字所以請問部長明年度就算預算能不能省還不確定的狀況底下但是你們編列源頭減量跟後端處理的經費比例是多少會不會改善"},{"start":4836.537,"end":4865.38,"text":"包委員其實他這樣的說法因為他不了解我們的政府的預算因為我們還有資源回收的一個費因為把那個算進去的話我們早就超過很多了啦所以這個部分我們可以再跟委員再做一個說明或者不然源頭不管之的話末端永遠燒不完那這題就麻煩你們到時候再給我相關的資料那我們也希望你整個的預算源頭的減量的配置跟經費配置都要給我好謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝林玉琴委員現在請廖偉祥召委諮詢"},{"start":4874.774,"end":4903.571,"text":"謝主席 請彭部長有請彭部長欸 趙偉豪稍等一下喔時間可不可以暫停一下 等一下檢報 好OK好 部長 首先先看第一張圖喔我想要請問一下你看這張圖 垃圾山你覺得很嚴重嗎這當然嚴重啊很嚴重喔對 對部長你知道這是哪裡嗎"},{"start":4905.015,"end":4908.818,"text":"這全世界都有很多這樣的地方好那下一頁部長剛剛這個確實不是我國的垃圾山"},{"start":4911.53,"end":4933.141,"text":"可是剛剛那個是印度的垃圾山可是你可以看到我們現在這張圖喔右邊的是竹東垃圾山更確切的說看起來像是一個垃圾瀑布看起來是不是有點相似看起來是不是很觸目驚心是是是吧那但是你們今年五月的時候說已經號稱說清理完畢喔但根據環保組織的實際勘察"},{"start":4935.905,"end":4958.579,"text":"下一頁發現他其實只是縮水了還沒有清理完那甚至污水還不斷的滲入到頭前溪的流域那新竹市跟竹北市約有60萬的居民的水源當中請問這部分部長是否了解有這個我也到現場看過那委員這個部分的話是不是請我們署長來說他的這個"},{"start":4960.821,"end":4975.596,"text":"鄉委員報告原來它確實有垃圾瀑布的現象它也是水源區所以竹東廠是我們第一個要解決的當時已經把所有的這些垃圾瀑布都完成清除之後"},{"start":4975.996,"end":5004.531,"text":"那現在在右邊這張圖是它原來的這個掩埋場的部分那後來這一個部分我們有要求要完成復必完全清理完成完全復育啦復育完畢要復土對啊那現在呢現在是已經全部清完了嗎這個是要整理好之後復土然後再直升我的意思是說現在所有的垃圾現場已經沒有任何的垃圾嗎"},{"start":5005.331,"end":5022.58,"text":"他應該是說他會完成護浴啦不會說完全沒有垃圾但是他在他的掩埋區裡面會有好的設備包含不透水布跟他的污水都會收到他左下角這污水處理廠來做妥善的處理"},{"start":5023.32,"end":5052.203,"text":"那原則上這個呼籲完畢之後那污水就很少會再生出了以上我想要問的事情是所以現場是你沒有說完全沒有垃圾是還是有垃圾的是的還是有垃圾現在還是有垃圾它是掩埋這個把它掩埋蓋過去對但是它的水不會再跑出去就是在那裡讓它讓它穩定化原則上一個掩埋場的穩定化大概要20年的時間那這20年的時間它的水不會再出去"},{"start":5052.984,"end":5067.328,"text":"所以你們現在相關的處置都已經確定好了都已經處置好了因為部長問這題就是因為你在去年上任的時候其實你對於垃圾山新百岳你也表達說很震驚那你承諾剛剛你的報告也有講到2026年底會全數解決"},{"start":5071.149,"end":5093.794,"text":"這部分的目標有沒有改變?還是你是有信心提前解決?當然必須說我們原先希望年底要到40萬噸現在是變60因為今年的天災特別多所以我們目前呢我們也在跟我們的同仁確認過我說很挑戰啦但是我們還是有信心可以把它完成但是我說委員那個有透過掩埋打包方式能夠不要裸露的露出來這個是我們的目標"},{"start":5095.137,"end":5115.573,"text":"因為部長你在執行承諾的時候其實你有設立了一個全國裸露堆製垃圾妥善處理監控平台是那貌似能夠讓民眾快速且及時了解進度喔但我們可以看一下這個圖喔你可以看到這個圖說的事情叫做到115年的6月你就會完全的歸零所以你可以提前半年達標嗎"},{"start":5117.355,"end":5145.916,"text":"而且你退一步來說這個撇除目標線不看其實你現在的實際進度實際進度也只有27%多你的實際跟目標曲線離非常的遠所以換句話說每個月大概要增加45%的目標比例這真的有辦法達到嗎還是說其實你這個頁面是拿出來供參考的樣板而已因為我剛才說過就是說原來我們希望是40例如說年底到40但是今年多了20"},{"start":5146.897,"end":5160.653,"text":"所以60幾所以這個部分我們現在要很努力啦所以部長就是因為看起來這個差距非常大但是你還是信誓旦旦覺得明年可以完成然後你做的這個網頁告訴大家的還是一樣到現在是110你們設定變成115年的6月就可以"},{"start":5164.497,"end":5184.367,"text":"完成你們的目標那部長這個部分究竟是拿出來好看的還是你真的可以達到包委員我剛我的圖裡面有列出來哪些縣市是沒有做到的哪些縣市已經完成的部長這是你整個環境部隊的目標這個是我們把他的所有的資本把它加起來的確我們現在大概只有還有剩下60多萬噸"},{"start":5186.088,"end":5204.967,"text":"對嘛 那我就是問你說因為你照你們官方出來的圖你告訴本席的說是你給國人看到的叫做你115年6月可以完成嘛是那所以我剛剛不斷的在跟你確認這件事情你是可以提前完成嗎你本來說明年底嘛但是你的網路上面又說出又看到你是目標就是在"},{"start":5205.928,"end":5222.92,"text":"明年的六月完成然後你的實際值又離得這麼遠本席很憂慮我很擔心你根本達不到啊包委員這個圖是我們跟這個地方政府協調當時我們希望是115年底但是取乎其喪得乎其從我們希望能夠"},{"start":5232.293,"end":5246.629,"text":"所以你往前設定了半年半年那這個在去年已經把所有12億的經費都已經合下去那很多因為花包的關係它花包完成之後它的進度就會相當的快"},{"start":5247.15,"end":5263.628,"text":"那今年我們還會大概1.2億再補助下去所以希望在115年底能夠完成所以部長你們這裡意思就是說你們確定可以明年6月完成啦因為你的網站出現是這樣嘛你說發包下去就可以完成喔那請部長信守承諾喔明年的"},{"start":5264.388,"end":5283.965,"text":"第一個我們把各個縣市的環保局局長都一起來我們來共同面對這個問題所以這個基本上是大家一起努力啦那我必須說有一些縣市我覺得目標跟實際要做到的真的是要一起來努力我也相信部長很用心但是你們看起來我看到這個曲線是非常憂心啊"},{"start":5284.845,"end":5311.502,"text":"所以請你們一定要務實的如果你回答說你們可以做到那本席就在這裡反正記錄下來你們可以做到我們會努力我們會努力但是就是說現在當然我必須有一個條件明年拜託不要像今年這麼多的大型的天災多了20萬噸那個就壓力就來了所以這個基本上這個部分是需要需要也希望委員給我們多一點支持好部長請這個反正加油一起努力啊看到這樣子希望明年明年中的時候可以看到真正達標"},{"start":5312.663,"end":5328.951,"text":"是部長那我們也都知道如果不從源頭改善的話垃圾跟這些廢棄都很難處理啊那這也是部長的核心主張包含修法加嚴管理還有加重刑責的部分喔可是其實今天你也說到這個法其實很奇怪五月你送到行政院喔那"},{"start":5329.771,"end":5358.133,"text":"到底什麼時候會出來啊就是後來九月送到行政院後就沒有消息了你們預告完之後所以現在到底什麼時候會出來可不可以給本席一個時間包委員我剛才特別說我們大概十月多正式送行政院那也開了非常多次的會跨部會的去協調那目前的消息是即將我只能說即將即將到底是什麼時候快要了快要了快要了是一月初我是希望如果說拼一下年底或是說到一月初"},{"start":5358.513,"end":5381.775,"text":"好所以希望年底你認為年底拼一下年底可以出來因為最晚一月初會出來對對對最晚最晚一月初啦目前目前我們的成果還不錯啦但是因為這個要行政院的決定因為部長今年截至12月4號為止全台已經累積至少24起類似垃圾掩埋場跟戰事場發生火警的狀況所以包含台南花蓮澎湖等地方"},{"start":5383.254,"end":5396.451,"text":"那起火雖然你會說有氣候異常乾燥啦或者是大量廢棄物混合堆製導致發酵啊好然後背後其實主要的原因還是跟垃圾越堆越多嘛去化量能不足啊然後還有這個賞罰不足賞"},{"start":5399.525,"end":5421.283,"text":"你說的蘿蔔跟棒子都還沒有上線啊所以你現在立法空方期越久本席越擔心這樣的事情就越拖越久會造成極大的危害好所以請部長趕快好不好請行政院趕快出來好好謝謝好那下一題我這裡這個部分要請這個我們國防部的軍備局跟國防採購室的傷情綜合處的代表上台好不好"},{"start":5428.373,"end":5429.514,"text":"部長你可以先休息一下稍微好"},{"start":5442.27,"end":5459.696,"text":"你好我想要問一下這個RDX這個炸藥是聯合國規範這個0072中class1.1D的高爆炸藥威力是TNT的1.5倍我想要請問一下國防部的代表知道這種高危險性的炸藥也是化學品"},{"start":5460.476,"end":5472.329,"text":"所以即便國防部開了這次的標案也必須要有專業且有經驗的承包商才可能完成那這一次的標案中為何要求僅要求廠商具備國際貿易業這種沒有毫無專門的這個門檻的一般資格"},{"start":5478.652,"end":5500.945,"text":"那依照政府採購法第36條對於如此高風險的巨額採購為何沒有訂定需具備危險品運輸時機或者是擁有合格防爆倉儲的特定資格就讓一家室內裝修公司得標那國防部是不是認為處理高爆炸藥跟進口壁紙的專業度是一樣的"},{"start":5502.845,"end":5524.805,"text":"報委員跟委員說明一下事實上我們在這訂定這個廠商的時候是我們是考量到了以往啊毀藥類的購案的投標廠商的資格啊是循網利啊訂定啊合法設立啊或登記的一個證明還有營業項目啊包含了國際貿易業跟納稅證明啊等三項的資格並啊確保廠商啊具有啊進出口啊"},{"start":5525.846,"end":5536.033,"text":"貨品供送的能力另外我們為了確保廠商的投標具有誠意的參標難道你們不會擔心他在運送的過程中造成任何的問題和危險嗎"},{"start":5538.496,"end":5554.492,"text":"挖委員跟委員報告一下針對廠商得標貨我們會依據經濟部定班的貨品輸入的管理辦法規定啊辦理限制性的一個貨品的一個輸入的申請獲得進口啊我想請問一下這個廠商他有沒有有沒有具備這個危險品運輸的時機或是擁有合格的防爆倉儲"},{"start":5560.106,"end":5589.094,"text":"跟委員報一下事實上他們在運輸的過程中啊在陸上運輸的時候都會依據道路安全沒有你沒有回答我的問題啊他有沒有運輸的這種具備危險品運輸的時機或者是擁有合格防暴倉儲的特定資格他有沒有他有沒有這部分的資格或是曾經的這個時機包委員這個在審標的時候是並沒有在那個審標的那你們不覺得你們審標有問題嗎我跟你說啊好再來請交通部的代表你們剛剛說運輸嘛好交通部的代表"},{"start":5604.462,"end":5627.07,"text":"委員好交通部代表跟國防部代表都在台上請問一下交通部的代表根據國際海運危險貨物的章程第一點三章 岸上處理人員是不是需要受過危險品的培訓然後另外是要問一下國防部的代表這個福邁公司內部是不是有持有相關證照的專業人員報告委員 那個"},{"start":5632.421,"end":5657.215,"text":"在運輸方面來講的話在我們那個貨運廠還有那個傳播運送業這個接觸相關的危險品的這個貨品的時候他們都要有相關的證照對很好需要嘛對不對需要有相關證照謝謝交通部所以我問一下國防部的代表這個福邁公司內部是不是有持有相關證照的專業人員"},{"start":5660.99,"end":5678.276,"text":"如果沒有的話他們要如何判讀原廠的安全資料表那要怎麼確保在該批炸藥在海上運輸或港口裝卸的時候符合國際的隔離規範還是國防部覺得看到貨送到就好過程中的公共安全風險全由全民負擔"},{"start":5679.276,"end":5704.569,"text":"報告委員 這個到時候廠商在交貨的時候我們的需求單位就是軍備局的第二領武廠他們會有一個火工專業的檢運人員來全程陪同那把這個東西運送到需求單位去所以這個廠商不需要符合這些東西之後國防部會幫忙處理他只要把貨運進來就好了然後所以任何一個國際貿易的代表只要這個公司符合國際貿易的資格他都可以標到這個表案"},{"start":5706.064,"end":5726.133,"text":"國防部外表跟你說目前我想同時間外交部貴交國防委員會這個他們也應該也會針對此事做檢討但是相信標案的爭議性的細節會有更深入的探討但本席在這裡是要針對這樣的做法會對於環境跟人民產生公共安全危險提出質疑"},{"start":5726.653,"end":5753.246,"text":"尤其最近什麼貝魯特大爆炸天津大爆炸等等的案件陰間不遠我希望國防部不論基於什麼原因做這種不合理的操作不能夠放棄對於公共安全的重視否則你在那邊採購武器說要保護人民會不會就讓國人根本沒有為盟其利先受其害請你們回去我請那個環境部部長上台一下"},{"start":5757.418,"end":5761.832,"text":"部長這個RDX也是環三亞甲基三硝胺"},{"start":5762.54,"end":5791.724,"text":"那它在美國國家環境保護局被列為C級的致癌物也就是強效的神經毒素它對於地下水的污染也極其嚴重那這一次的採購是由民間的室內裝修公司進口它也不是軍方直接運輸我想要請問一下化學署這批劇毒化學品進入台灣環境部有沒有掌握那它是不是有在我們毒性級關注的化學物質的列管名單中"},{"start":5794.12,"end":5814.246,"text":"這裡跟委員報告,有關這個環山亞甲基酸硝胺目前不是我們環境部所列管的毒性極關注化學物質所以沒有的話,環境部是不是要長期放任這種軍用的毒物在民間隨意存放流竄而毫無監管呢?"},{"start":5815.819,"end":5828.408,"text":"這個部分還是要由國防部因為其實在我們的一個獨管法的一個範疇裡面大概比較偏重的是管這些工業跟民生的相關的這一些的物質或者是這些物品"},{"start":5829.056,"end":5847.041,"text":"好了 所以這個時候就發生問題了這時候就發生問題了如果RDX在入運的過程中發生這個翻覆啊 洩漏啊它的毒性會迅速穿透土壤污染 滴下水那請問你們有沒有需要去跟國防部溝通啊在運輸的過程中有沒有什麼通報機制"},{"start":5848.321,"end":5872.454,"text":"會告訴環境部然後如果針對這個RDX的洩漏處理有沒有標準作業流程那再者就是如果消防員不知道這是水溶性的毒物而且大量涉水的時候它會造成周邊的環境跟水源永久的污染請問誰要負責如果只能夠追蹤到追責到這個福邁公司的話這個公司的規模可以負個起完全負擔起這個賠償嗎本席剛剛問到現在就是這個問題"},{"start":5878.056,"end":5900.784,"text":"請問對兩位點頭你們覺得是不是應該去跟國防部溝通你們現在是不是沒有這個機制那個跟委員報告那如果真的是發生了這一些事情那當然其實相關政府部門相關的各個部會的通報的機制就會來啟動不會啊你現在就沒有啊因為他如果對啊你如果運輸的過程中如果他已經清倒你們都不知道他運輸了"},{"start":5901.664,"end":5919.474,"text":"那發生的這個外洩難道他會這個那個當下趕快告訴你啟動嗎跟委員報告我剛剛說的是他不是目前讀管法的公告的對他現在不是嘛所以我才說因為不是所以如果現在不是你們又沒有去做這件事未來發生的這個狀況的話那你們要怎麼怎麼做管理"},{"start":5920.629,"end":5938.73,"text":"跟委員報告以目前的機制來講即便他不是在政府部門有這樣的災害在在發生的時候都會進行相關單位的這一些的通報所以其實大家彼此之間都會有這些資訊上面的一個一個大家的交流"},{"start":5939.13,"end":5961.188,"text":"好所以你的意思是說我剛剛說如果發生這個狀況現場消防員到現場他一定會知道他是水溶性的毒物然後就不大量涉水你可以確保這件事跟委員報告這個部分是這樣因為這個RDS我們有一個那個資訊中心化學物質的資訊中心這個資訊中心他通報之後就會立即的去"},{"start":5961.708,"end":5985.737,"text":"把這個物質的這些物性跟化性的資料都把它抓出來然後我們就會透過我們的相關的群組跟我們的系統去通報所以換句話說你認為這個部分的洩漏處理是有作業標準的有SOP的相關的化學物質的我們的諮詢後面的這一些的一個諮詢可是你剛剛沒有列管那個你說的那個部分那個中心還是會有管理到這個還會有"},{"start":5987.097,"end":6008.473,"text":"還是會有 今天有列管的情形是他有這個責任如果有我們有公告的話他有這個責任從源頭那運輸以及後面的這一些的一個去向全部都要在我們的法定的系統在我們環境部的法定系統裡面去做申報所以現在他這個有申報嗎"},{"start":6009.233,"end":6021.45,"text":"這個沒有因為他不是我們的公告的老爺我要跟部長說其實根據毒物跟化學物質局發布RDX相關的宣導資料美國多個軍事基地都有收到RDX的"},{"start":6021.963,"end":6044.86,"text":"污染 例如什麼朱利業軍事彈藥廠啊 它是經典案例那該廠呢 因為長期製造保含RDX內的彈藥導致周邊的土壤跟地下水嚴重污染那美國環保署也在1995年的5月把它列為超級基金廠只要進行整治耗時了13年才完全復育"},{"start":6045.64,"end":6061.529,"text":"那既然這批原料將就是長期在這個可能台灣的國內的冰工廠使用環境部就應該要針對這個部分去做相關的配套包含著有沒有要去檢查說這個部如果儲存RDX附近"},{"start":6061.991,"end":6076.939,"text":"他周邊的地下水土壤是不是要進行這些的調查或是背景值的調查部長我要提醒你們的是這個事情好所以目前這個RDX主要被視為爆炸物是受經濟部的事業用的爆炸物的管理條例"},{"start":6078.159,"end":6092.692,"text":"或者是國防部的法規管理但是它的毒性特質完全符合要關注化學物質的定義所以這部分環境部已經公告數百種的關注化學物質但是對於RDX這種軍用的為主的物質"},{"start":6093.613,"end":6118.153,"text":"都被你們都會說那是屬於國防部的權責沒有納入民視的環保監控的體系裡面所以這其實是有問題的也有危險存在的對於民間請環境部長去做跨部會的溝通好嗎好謝謝委員我們這個我們來研議一下因為我也去了解一下美國環保署如何處理這個問題好我們來研議一下謝謝謝謝六位想加入的諮詢謝謝潘部長"},{"start":6128.427,"end":6130.388,"text":"好 接下來請王月明委員質詢謝謝主席 我們有請部長請彭部長"},{"start":6146.571,"end":6172.064,"text":"委員好部長好部長我們今天要討論那個垃圾處理的問題我們可以看到在台南的這個台江國家公園內的晨曦掩埋場光是今年就火燒了三次不只這樣子他在2021年的時候呢當地議員質詢的時候也說一年內至少火災兩三次每次都三天三夜燒不完那今年更是燒更久那這樣子的一個狀況就是"},{"start":6176.406,"end":6186.61,"text":"他的掩埋場然後又不當的這樣的一個存放或堆積太多然後變成火燒火燒之後變成空污這個真的是一個惡性循環喔那這樣的一個狀況目前環境部你們要怎麼去輔導跟管理因為光這一個城西掩埋場我覺得他也蠻離譜的他竟然就臨近這個台江國家公園了"},{"start":6201.115,"end":6216.52,"text":"甚至他應該算是在公園內啊這個全世界全世界有這種嗎國家公園內又是野脈場然後經常又火災然後不只地面汙染還空氣汙染這個你們有沒有專案好好去督導管理啊"},{"start":6216.98,"end":6233.548,"text":"好 謝謝委員那晨曦其實因為台南的 我剛剛的我的簡報裡面都有特別提到台南的這個垃圾的產生量跟計畫量有一個很大的一個差距啦這個焚化爐量不足不過他們新的那個在晨曦附近新的這個預計近期應該幾個月之後有機會可以開始啟動那這個啟動之後應該就會開始疏解這個累積堆積的垃圾什麼時候啟動"},{"start":6243.355,"end":6256.94,"text":"他因為測試的關係所以他在明年年中以後就會啟動明年年中才啟動嗎那他現在堆積如山還是現況嗎那像這樣子的一個垃圾山火災的情況你們要怎麼去因應呢"},{"start":6257.76,"end":6280.009,"text":"就是其實也不只是他 他其實是最矚目的因為看起來台南這個裸露的垃圾是全國第一高啊 堆的最多那其他地方也會有這一種 就是野脈場火災然後你報告裡面提到說你們已經有開會但是開會什麼時候要做呢你們要去研議那一個它的消防因應的策略在哪裡"},{"start":6280.809,"end":6298.179,"text":"包委我們其實也有補助這個所謂的消防或是監控例如說紅外線然後這個消防涉水的一個設備看起來無效啊因為他的量實在太大而且他們這次台南因為風災之後他的大量的土製樹葉都在這邊沒有 2021年他就開始火燒了跟這次也沒有關係了"},{"start":6298.479,"end":6321.37,"text":"其實這個已經很久了所以基本上第一個是未來我們如何再規範這個所謂的掩埋場或是佔置場它不能要如何去堆要如何放其實我們看到日本有一些限制不過這個是壓力會在於說我們台灣的土地沒有辦法像人家可以很那麼大的一個面積所以有辦法落實嗎其實是我們的土地面積而且我們的地小人口那怎麼辦"},{"start":6322.53,"end":6331.774,"text":"這個就要大家的努力第一個是說我們希望是說日本的經驗我們是不是可以拿來用第二個是如何預防我們是不是有更好的消防的體系我也請我們同仁跟消防署聯繫針對這種掩埋場的事故如何救你們什麼時候才能研議出來"},{"start":6342.498,"end":6357.939,"text":"包括像日本的防災指引還有一旦事故的時候最快的時間最迅速的撲滅像這次台南真的太誇張了這個燒那麼久那我覺得對台南的人民真的不公平啊那個空污然後對他健康的危害時間為期太久了"},{"start":6359.361,"end":6384.214,"text":"包委員那個台南那個基本上是堆的太多然後那個救火的方式我一直在問同仁說有沒有更新的方式來處理後來我們我去了之後協調說開了一個很多的水線三天內才把它鋪完所以基本上那個是一個很特別的案例那我們國內的能夠針對那樣的案例去救火都是只能傳統的一個方式所以第一個是我們現在會請我們這個化學署防管署跟消防署"},{"start":6384.614,"end":6396.799,"text":"提一個計畫到底找這些消防專業針對這種掩埋場大型的火災要怎麼救你們什麼時候要演繹出來我們希望是明年四五月的時候我們要開一個這個消防因為這個是消防專業跟垃圾處理專業兩個專業明年四五月才有開會但是我們的"},{"start":6402.101,"end":6420.357,"text":"這個所謂的掩埋場、戰事場的堆置的管理的指引什麼時候會出來現在內部已經出來了然後我們希望二月的時候什麼時候公布開始做我們希望二月底的時候二月底的時候可以公布這個縣市就要按照你的指引新的堆放就要按照你的指引的方式來推進我們希望二月底的時候可以來完成我覺得這個問題一定要處理因為台南市它的垃圾裸露17.1萬公噸全國第一"},{"start":6427.904,"end":6435.794,"text":"你可以看到他們自己在報告上面官方的都說 我都做得很好 我已經封閉附土綠化這報告是不是作假報告啊結果現場都是垃圾堆積如山 它的綠化到底在哪裡"},{"start":6443.523,"end":6462.64,"text":"這個你中央你有沒有定期去稽查你環境部就是有沒有針對特定幾個譬如說台南他垃圾全國裸露第一那你就應該針對他垃圾堆放的方式還有他自己地方政府所宣稱的報告跟實際的情況你應該要去查核啊看起來他這個做的其實並不好"},{"start":6464.011,"end":6486.077,"text":"包委員你說的其實他真的有做我們定期都有去查核但是他這個今年從7月開始新增的堆置的他們才是主要集中在某幾個地方所以他的這個點就堆置的特別多但他就是美化他現場有堆放的都沒有講很多而且你們自己官方報告他就是第一名另外一個他涉及到的其實是那個環境的議題"},{"start":6487.978,"end":6514.999,"text":"因為他離這個曾穩溪口失地只有3.6公里然後他又在國家的這個公園裡面然後他一期二期三期四期哇一直一直去開發聽說第四期還是我們的賴總統擔任賴市長的時候核定的那這個不是跟你的環境保護就是完全是背離啊在國家公園然後他又處理不好然後還可以一直擴增你不覺得這個問題還蠻大的嗎"},{"start":6516.941,"end":6528.712,"text":"這個有時候我們台灣地下人仇所以如果大家都是用這麼嚴格的標準弄我們根本沒有掩埋場所以基本上這個東西有先來因為這個地方早就有這樣的一個東西我知道 但要輔導包括他後面的幾期"},{"start":6531.334,"end":6554.751,"text":"它如果還要擴增那應該是採取更嚴格的標準不是嗎如果它的焚化爐可以啟動那他們台南也有一個計畫說他們舊的焚化廠或是新的能夠是不是同步啟動我希望你們好好去督導就是各地的這一些譬如說指標性的它裸露垃圾量特別高的我希望中央你們可以加強你們的督導那我們不只垃圾的問題我們最近的廚餘"},{"start":6558.653,"end":6576.743,"text":"噴滿為患就是說這個是團山業者他們現在最近也告訴大家說沒有像你們畫的圖卡這麼的美好你們圖卡做得很好這個不可養豬之後他的去化管道這個有清潔隊有乙親業者看起來好像都沒有問題結果"},{"start":6578.804,"end":6604.517,"text":"這一個團善業者他直接就發文他說有問題呀很有問題而且他的發文裡面告訴大家說他們都是比較能忍的人如果當有人已經出來發聲就代表不是只有一個個案而是有很多業者都面臨到現在的廚餘不知道去哪裡因為你們的清運量能不足而且還運費暴漲"},{"start":6607.738,"end":6629.196,"text":"這個你們中央的督導責任到底在哪裡你們好像報告都說都沒有問題去化什麼都沒有問題結果這個是他們在第一線就覺得很有問題啊現在到底有問題還是沒問題包委員你沒有追蹤這個陳明信理事長的他也稱讚我們因為我們上禮拜也跟他線上的跟各縣市環保局在開會主一來盤點"},{"start":6630.237,"end":6655.347,"text":"所有的一個問題因為有些縣市其實他的這個已清上不去暫時沒有出去所以他有一點點的小狀況那我們也協調了各縣市環保局能夠給他做一個協助所以委員其實這個都有在處理那這個是各縣市他們第一線來負擔我們來協助所以也拜託委員不要說環境部失職做什麼事我們很努力在做也希望你可以看到一些實際上的情況但是現在就是問題還存在我直接問環管署署長"},{"start":6656.647,"end":6658.168,"text":"當問題發生的時候你說2月11號你們會開會請問你開了什麼然後這些輕運量能增加了多少運費還要再漲嗎然後現在到底有哪幾個縣市是有困難的那你要提供什麼協助"},{"start":6674.403,"end":6701.682,"text":"跟委員報告 12月11號開會召集各縣市環保局跟團散業者一起來談竹縣來盤點現在哪些縣市有困難現在比較困難的大概是直轄市的部分當然如果以陳明信理事長來看他是在新北市 他比較困難"},{"start":6702.267,"end":6722.739,"text":"不過經過現場的溝通原來是溝通有點誤會那環保局的副局長也當場承諾跟這個陳明信這個將他的問題解決那這個清運的運費的部分如果因為太高我們也認為不合理的時候就會請環保局他的清潔隊來協助"},{"start":6724.04,"end":6743.062,"text":"当然以轻业者因为他轻运的特性以往是轻运垃圾很少轻运厨余所以他的车辆可能不服使用但是这个部分我们也可以来帮忙解决也同意他们自己去租车或运用自己的车再运到环保局指定的地点以上"},{"start":6743.991,"end":6766.514,"text":"那你們運費有補貼嗎?這個月到這個月底有補貼所以剛剛署長提到的就是直轄市比較有困難,量比較大那都解決了嗎?經過你們開完會之後因為我們是上禮拜是有在開會所以這個禮拜就不會看到有一桶一桶的廚餘堆在那邊沒有人收"},{"start":6767.134,"end":6794.992,"text":"還是有一些個案因為其實他有其實委員這是一個每個縣市環保局他一直去協調面對的問題而且我們那麼多的學校有些學校比較偏遠所以其實要一個是一個系統化去解決的問題啦所以委員請你放心我們會努力把它完成所以拜託委員說我們沒有無為而治我們每天都在處理這個事情好這個是無論是垃圾或者是廚餘我覺得你們作為中央的主管機關都有督導跟協助地方去改善的責任"},{"start":6795.612,"end":6816.533,"text":"那這個是我們現在看到的問題我希望你們就是加把勁特別是廚餘的問題因為這個新的政策已經既然是中央的政策你的配套當然就是要跟上那如果現在有沒有做好的部分我們希望你們就是要發揮及時去協助的功能跟地方一起把這個問題好好的解決 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":6820.714,"end":6826.222,"text":"好我們宣告待會陳清輝委員發言後休息10分鐘現在請盧憲義委員發言有請部長請彭部長"},{"start":6838.485,"end":6867.511,"text":"委員好部長好今天聽了很多關於垃圾山的問題那我們都知道說現在的垃圾可能是幾年前的十倍啊或者是說爆量啊那我是我想知道說現在是焚化爐不夠還是問題出在哪裡第一個是垃圾量的確還在增加特別是外送網購那個還是成長所以我們垃圾量降不下來第二個是我們焚化爐過去呢到了一個整改期所以顯著的這個落差就造成一個差距所以垃圾山爐螺螺就會增多"},{"start":6867.671,"end":6894.867,"text":"可是我的感覺很像是優先處理高價的事業廢棄物一般廢棄物是不是就被排擠在後面有報委員因為現在各個縣市大概都會採取BOT或是委託委外來經營如果說優先處理高價的事業廢棄物如果說你把處理一般家屋的廢物也調高是不是它不會造成那種為了利益而優先處理什麼樣的廢棄物這個理想很好但是因為這個垃圾是地方在管理的所以地方縣市政府可能就要額外編出一筆經費來給焚化爐來做處理"},{"start":6897.028,"end":6914.774,"text":"所以目前因為那個都是委外來經營相對之下他必須要從失業廢棄物獲得一些經費還是希望能夠確保就是說文化輪能夠嚴格遵守說一般廢棄物優先處理而不是讓垃圾處理變成一個是利益導向的一個市場現在是一定的比例而已並沒有說全面給失業廢棄物"},{"start":6915.954,"end":6932.407,"text":"那這次我們台南的烏蘇嶺是大概七成樓高也就是21公尺我們剛才一直都在說日本日本定在5公尺對不對對那我們為什麼當初是沒有去規範是為什麼要讓它變成這麼高然後造成火災的一個頻繁發生"},{"start":6933.408,"end":6947.832,"text":"因為第一個是說土地的面積大小還有垃圾量的大小或是說有些縣市首長或是地方他們會願意現在就早一點規劃有一個整個縣市的佔治的區域中央能夠有一個針對災害廢棄物臨時佔治場的SOP"},{"start":6950.433,"end":6976.401,"text":"可以嗎這個我們會來規劃我們也會來提醒地方我們不可能期待說明年沒有颱風嘛時間都會有所以可能這個SOP還是要出來不然台南這件事情還是會反覆的我們預計明年就是二月底明年二月底會出來這樣的一個指引好 剛才針對我們林玉琴有講說那末端跟源頭的部分我大概看你剛才講說不是差22倍可是我是一直覺得說你是不是應該從源頭擴增更多的回收的清潔費用來讓他們生產這些"},{"start":6979.102,"end":6997.875,"text":"垃圾人的責任增加這個源頭這個是我們現在其實也不知道委員因為我們希望說資源循環的這個促進法能夠推的話在源頭的處理就會有更有力道啦所以這樣的一個費用就有可能機會會鼓勵獎勵起來所以這個我也贊同源頭的一個費用要增多"},{"start":6998.915,"end":7016.214,"text":"關於營建廢棄物230萬噸這個部分是不是在運送的時候那些載運的車輛是不是要裝GPS讓他們剛才講的智慧圍理這個部分能夠一起加進去讓這些確實在傾倒這些廢棄物的這些營建廢棄物的這些車輛確實是傾倒到應該放置的地方"},{"start":7020.017,"end":7035.282,"text":"對 這個就是我們明年1月1號開始所有的這個營建土石方或是廢棄物的全部要裝GPS全部都要裝對 明年1月1號開始好 現在回到原鄉的問題就是我們剛才之前講的馬太岸的那個煙色湖那我"},{"start":7036.122,"end":7059.843,"text":"發現說後來那些垃圾那麼多的垃圾你有去當地嗎有聞到那些非常惡臭的味道那就是它稀畔都有很多掩埋場就這個時候就被沖出來了那我想知道全國有多少的稀畔的掩埋場或者是說有沒有大陸的數據或是說你大概知道大概範圍在哪裡有沒有稀畔的掩埋場這個"},{"start":7062.287,"end":7079.555,"text":"包括這個數據我們在提供不過現在主要在西畔的掩埋場大多已經是封閉在海岸跟西畔的部分大部分已經封閉那尤其是馬灘這件事情在光復它原來是在合體"},{"start":7081.455,"end":7106.901,"text":"算是以外的地區啦那是核體溢流之後產生的所以我一直覺得為什麼會開放這種比如說河川啊或剛才我們朝偉講的在竹東的水質保護區啊或這些垃圾掩埋場你不覺得應該要規避或是要遠離這些我們所謂的水質保護區嗎那個都幾十年前大家訂的可能幾十年前那個地方是沒有人居住的地方"},{"start":7107.455,"end":7132.657,"text":"然後回到那個廚藝養豬的問題花蓮的問題就是說他們現在是再送不出去然後也沒有量能可以處理所以現在可能一天可能可以多達大概61公噸可是處理的量能大概只有一半所以目前堆置的那個量已經是越來越多所以變成花蓮是雪上加霜又添災又加上這個廚藝的事情你覺得你要怎麼如何來幫助花蓮"},{"start":7134.065,"end":7155.659,"text":"其實第一個是鳳林的環科園區廚藥處理廠因為馬太安的事件有稍微停頓了一下無法營運所以造成它稍微堆置那我所知道的花蓮的垃圾是台逆在做協助的我們其實上禮拜也有特別請花蓮環保局做一個說明所以我們近期還會再請他們做說明 請他們來做規劃"},{"start":7157.68,"end":7180.288,"text":"那他們目前是沒有特別跟我們提出什麼樣的需求但是我也請我們的署長在特別針對花蓮的情形看他們如何給他們更好的一個指導現在是所以是可能是朝向全面禁止養豬對不對對對那所以現在的養豬業者他們可能本來你們因為之前的規範說請他們裝鍋爐結果因為以後要禁止"},{"start":7181.268,"end":7203.01,"text":"所以他們希望他們能夠拆除鍋爐的設備那我是覺得說這種就是強制他們拆除的這個動作會不會太草率因為有的時候豬他不一定都是吃冷的有的時候他可能在冬天是要吃熱的所以這個部分有養豬業者跟我們講說他們願意配合國家的政策可是這個部分能不能有些不能太"},{"start":7204.991,"end":7216.457,"text":"這個還是要農業部他們來訂這個政策啦那也跟委員報告因為花蓮的花蓮很早就禁廚餘可是花蓮的廚餘都送到別的縣市現在別的縣市不讓花蓮的直接進來所以產生這個問題所以我們也鼓勵說花蓮"},{"start":7219.258,"end":7245.384,"text":"所以我是想說能不能建一個比較穩定常態性的跨區域調度機制比如說這個廚藥的然後就是說像現在花蓮那個可能垃圾可能沒有辦法及時處理因為現在有一個叫花蓮的那個台美的DACA再生資源中心它的量也不夠因為又地震又颱風了所以他們又在在地上發生這些天災的時候它的這些廢棄物就堆積無三所以能不能幫花蓮想辦法"},{"start":7247.584,"end":7267.294,"text":"OK 這個其實也要地方他們來一起來做啦那特別是廚藥的話生殖能中心如果起來的話就可以比較好的跨區的調度那其實我也拜託委員要跟各個地方的縣市政府他們一定要對於環保多一點用心啦那其實這一次從廚藥或是垃圾來看的話有些縣市對於環保長期投入的不足"},{"start":7267.814,"end":7289.148,"text":"還是希望說有系統性的替代方案比如說跨區的轉運啊跨縣市的緊急應變裝區或者是補助設置第二套的緊急那個處理措施設備這個我們來想辦法但是跟委員報告現在大家的因為大家長期對環保不重視地方尤其是地方那造成說這些東西全部變成零幣設施那我希望部長多努力"},{"start":7290.189,"end":7311.016,"text":"最後一個問題就是我們的生育率已經可能今年到達不了11萬嘛那我有一個環境荷爾蒙的問題我大家都知道環境我們大概都是從食物啊從容器這個部分來引起的所以可能在處理回收這個部分是不是力道不夠或者是說我們的準確度不夠又或者是我們的"},{"start":7312.336,"end":7340.59,"text":"各方面的知識不夠因為我知道美國在美國環境保護署在2015年他有一個新的演算法他對環境荷爾蒙這些的物質或者是他怎麼生物各個家庭生活的領域我覺得他們都有些預測或者是規範可是台灣還沒有我所謂為什麼要提到生物因為環境荷爾蒙會造成就是大概很多的不孕的一個後遺症所以我希望這個部分不僅"},{"start":7341.61,"end":7353.097,"text":"能夠改善 我們以後也可以改善我們的生育率這樣好 這個部分我們有一個國家荷爾蒙的環境的這個調查的計畫那我們再提供給委員那我們會再來留意OK 好 謝謝謝謝盧憲英委員發言 接下來請陳金輝委員發言謝謝主席 我想請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":7376.906,"end":7391.161,"text":"剛剛我聽到很多人質詢垃圾山也有提到空污那我跟您報告我今天比較晚到衛黃委員會也是因為剛剛跟四位民進黨委員在開一個記者會講到COPD就是一個慢性肺阻塞的疾病希望大家可以"},{"start":7391.681,"end":7412.8,"text":"除了篩檢肺癌之外也要篩檢自己是不是有慢性的肺阻塞疾病因為他是第八大死因那這些都跟空汙息息相關但是我今天想要先播一段影片我們立法院有一位省委員他在對東吳大學的學生做發言的時候曾經這樣子講述那我想請環境部長的意見那我們來播放這段影片"},{"start":7418.559,"end":7445.793,"text":"這些環保整個氣勢都洗滿他說他們分享空氣汙染的文章哇現在都超多讚超多分享我一定都知道不妙台灣人突然關心空氣汙染除非是有廠商要賣空氣清洗我怎麼可能要突然關心空氣汙染所以當時呢我跟一個UC Davis的教授我們就去這些粉專來看就是到底是誰在分享這些空氣汙染的數據就一查那一次抓了五千個帳號然後再追到一個社團裡面有兩萬個帳號裡面是兩萬個中國帳號在一個社團裡面他們每天做的事情只有一件就是出去分享台灣任何的空氣汙染有關的資訊還有在留言裡面討論空氣汙染就這樣每天都在做這樣的事情"},{"start":7447.793,"end":7476.821,"text":"我想請問環境部長的看法您會覺得說每天對空氣污染做發言或是去評論算是一個資訊戰嗎也包圍了我針對他的這個看法因為我知道他有一些問我沒有看過他的論文我不清楚他在描述什麼啦但是以我的經驗環境部其實在過去一年多包含的這個各種的光電板或是各種的其實我也遭遇到有一些不知道來源的一個對岸的這個攻擊我們是有的"},{"start":7477.341,"end":7489.571,"text":"所以我部分我是贊成它的網路資訊站的一個看法因為我們的確有一些假燒期來源我們追查到我今天是跟你討論空污所以我們可不可以就空污來做討論您會覺得針對空污的討論還有評論是一個網路的資訊站嗎"},{"start":7494.875,"end":7523.254,"text":"這個因為他指的事情我不知道是哪一段時期但是的確我們在台灣這個是最近我跟你說這個是他12月9號到東吳的演講他講的是12月這個時期有一個關心環境的人告訴他說因為他認識很多NGO的人有一個關心環境的人告訴他說最近只要在網路上發表跟空污環境相關的文章就會受到大量的轉發分享或是留言等等的這一類的"},{"start":7524.955,"end":7541.244,"text":"保安委員這個是政治議題喔我是專業的人士但是我關心空污我的引書也常常有人在留言或是批評的也都有所以我都尊重但是其實台灣無時無刻受到各種的網軍這種所謂的境外或境內的攻擊的確是有的"},{"start":7543.165,"end":7556.63,"text":"對 主席剛剛也 主席剛剛也說他受到網軍的攻擊可能不 可能是您的數百數千倍啦都有啦 都有啦所以彭部長 彭部長你先你先不用覺得說這一切都是來自於哪邊的政治攻擊我現在只是想跟你討論齁"},{"start":7558.05,"end":7575.406,"text":"其實我們從很久以前就開始關心空污的議題那這個就是台灣從十幾二十年前我包括關心中火都是不分黨派的人去的以及最關心的一百件事情一直都是空污誠如我剛剛跟您講的"},{"start":7576.247,"end":7590.772,"text":"因為肺癌一直纏連在癌症癌症是前大死因嘛它是纏連癌症的第一第二名嘛剛剛有講到一個COPD慢性阻塞性肺病也就是死因的第八名所以台灣人關心公屋這件事情其實並不罕見"},{"start":7592.012,"end":7609.177,"text":"那另外呢你們自己在今年的五月都有推出一個空氣品質政策白皮書裡面講到永續健康精進汙染淨零還有科技公民參與而且我是要稱讚您的是在健康的章節你有聚焦在兒小還有脆弱族群的空氣權"},{"start":7610.437,"end":7627.296,"text":"甚至您分享自己氣喘的經驗喔比如說你說瓦斯爐的開啟居家的黴菌街道臭氧等等引發過敏所以從過去20年我看到台灣民眾最關心的議題都是空污喔這裡面一定是前十打那"},{"start":7628.237,"end":7640.238,"text":"我是希望藉由環境部長的口中可以講其實台灣人很關心自己的環境跟健康我不想要被部分的人士解讀是統戰不要連關心空污都可以被抹紅"},{"start":7642.793,"end":7665.781,"text":"你認同嗎我基本上是關心空污而且這個訊息這是我們也主動來做的那我不知道這個委員他說的是什麼樣的事情但是也跟委員報告我們因為空污的事情我也遭遇到很多很多的境外的一個攻擊的確是有的但是我們不會管這些事情我也希望說國內對於資訊的傳遞上面有一個更好的管理的一個方式"},{"start":7666.321,"end":7684.061,"text":"是的我認為針對對的事情我們就持續去關注我們並不要去在意那些雜音好嗎我也不認為台灣人民就算有就算有這些資訊戰的影響大家會因為空污影響他們的認知或是什麼的這個就是普世價值而已是嗎"},{"start":7684.782,"end":7711.498,"text":"是再來我們要討論的是您在今年我看你也辦了一個蠻盛大的研討會因為極端氣候所以我們現在對高溫的時間越來越長溫度也越來越高光是今年台北跟新北就啟動了11次的高溫警戒所以您在今年7月31號大概預算快要100萬台幣推出一個抗高溫糧食地圖來提升全民對高溫風險的應對能力"},{"start":7713.739,"end":7738.569,"text":"7月的時候你的新聞稿講到說已經彙整了2400個糧食點裡面就包括便利商店、銀行、公家機關等等如今超過了5000個提供1.5萬次的以上使用但是其中主要地點大部分還是在六都啦你其中的其他縣市還在積極的拓展中不過我先示範給你看因為我就自己試用了一下比如說我找立院附近"},{"start":7739.569,"end":7757.26,"text":"從你的抗高溫地圖可以找到5處的糧食點可是其實如果我是用google map的話便利商店的數量就高達22間更不用說這麼多的政府公務部門就在這附近再來呢我再來搜尋環境部的附近環境部"},{"start":7758.041,"end":7771.696,"text":"糧食點你的地圖上是有8處戶外降溫設施是1處可是其實環境部附近的便利商店大概就有16處還有你們對面有個景點叫做西本苑寺廣場這個都在你的圈圈裡面看不到的好"},{"start":7772.637,"end":7789.039,"text":"所以我想知道說你目前糧食點大概有5000處便利商店就佔了一半以上可是其實全台灣的便利商店已經14000多家了可以配合您配合環境部的店家只有2000多家您覺得有什麼方式可以改善這樣子"},{"start":7791.12,"end":7811.526,"text":"第一個像這個店家他就說因為進去沒有買東西說真的我也不好意思所以他主動說你如果身體不適可以進去不要覺得不好意思所以他光是這個便利商店做這個我就很感興因為我們一個政策讓他們願意響應那也跟委員報告因為現在只有六都啦我希望可以更多那因為我們也沒什麼錢做這個事我未來這個"},{"start":7811.966,"end":7826.732,"text":"就希望變成一個開放資料不是只有我們的網頁就是讓大家可以各個平台如果他要加那未來環境部的那個APP也會加進去我希望讓這個可以擴展多一點讓大家隨手可得知道我哪裡熱了可以到那個地方降溫"},{"start":7828.12,"end":7843.68,"text":"那第二個我想問一下您有沒有實際跟您比較認識的長輩或是家中的長輩來實際操作因為我們有遇到跟長輩來操作他是覺得根據這些統計的確是真的其實長輩在使用"},{"start":7844.902,"end":7848.725,"text":"3C產品的時候第一個他們是用來做通訊然後第二個他們是用來看新聞第三呢他們是用來查一些資訊不是查資訊就是看一些影音比如說YouTube或者是抖音什麼等等的這三個才是最常見的那"},{"start":7863.017,"end":7879.825,"text":"55歲60歲以上他們會用搜尋這個功能的大概只有70%可是針對70歲以上的人大概只有一半的人有這樣子的能力所以我實際上去找了一些比較高齡的長者因為其實您在研討會就有提到說你們是希望透過科技跟關懷"},{"start":7880.925,"end":7895.806,"text":"去守護尤其是獨居的長者或是高齡的長者不能遺漏任何一個人政策要溫度所以你當然就要針對你這群TA啊我想問你在實際操作的時候有沒有遇到這樣子的狀況因為我有他們是不習慣去找這些搜尋軟體的"},{"start":7896.947,"end":7923.072,"text":"對好謝謝委員的意見因為我知道因為年長者其實3C也不會太差不過他們喜歡用LINE要不要搜尋很困難所以基本上我有叫我同仁說我們以後LINE app要多做一點讓老年他們加入我們LINE然後直接發一個訊息就可以回答等於是直接互動式的來做處理我有叫我同仁趕快來研究做這個事情就LINE app比較多一點點對所以我在這邊幫我撥下兩頁"},{"start":7926.517,"end":7949.831,"text":"這邊我要具體給你一點建議因為衛福部他明年1月1號開始他要去訪查我們全台灣的獨居老人方式我是認為環境部如果對於一些高齡長者的關懷其實你可以跟衛福部一起去你可以知道說這些他們對於3C的觸及率是多少還有他們使用你提供這些利益良善的資訊有沒有遇到什麼障礙"},{"start":7950.771,"end":7966.834,"text":"那你就可以跟衛福部或者抒發部去做整合比如他們假使有要提供一些課程是會把你們這個東西納入或者是長輩喜歡用的軟體你剛剛講得很好就是做一些結合那另外你剛剛講到的其實他們會不好意思走進去"},{"start":7967.555,"end":7997.195,"text":"但是現在其實全國的超商都有跟地方政府有一些配合不管是發牛奶或者是比較這個中低收入的家庭他們的小朋友可以在特定的時間到超商去拿一些物資來使用什麼的這些都很好所以未來看你有沒有想要做這些在高溫或者是極高溫的狀況下長輩可以在便利商店悅換一些尤其有電解質的飲料這樣就可以打破他不好意思走進去這樣子的概念"},{"start":7997.615,"end":8019.163,"text":"但這個需要很多整合可能中央跟地方政府可是提供您一個想法而已委員你的意見非常好我會請我團隊針對委員的意見納入我們明年要推動的項目來做看看因為我們今年其實有一個團我們有一個團隊跟台南就是幾層大的幾個老師結合針對年長者因為我們現在年長者有時候他家連裝冷氣的機會都沒有我們要針對弱勢的最弱勢的找出來我們但是他沒有得獎"},{"start":8025.905,"end":8048.322,"text":"但是我禮拜四的時候會特別表揚他們因為他們整合在一起有在做類似的事這就是我現在想告訴您的在六都你有這些地圖有這些地方其實不錯可是這邊的人並不是最需要幫忙的反而是衛福部接下來要去訪查那些獨居長者尤其在偏鄉的地方這才是你真的需要趕快立即幫助他們的因為他們可能家裡並沒有這些空調最後一個問題我想花兩分鐘的時間跟您討論下一張"},{"start":8054.448,"end":8077.478,"text":"這個是之前曾經我們有質疑過那您在9月27面對新聞的時候部長你馬上說要進行政風的調查可是我們大概過了75天完全看不到您的政風報告可是黃國昌委員又再度質詢為什麼會跟特定的廠商一起出國並且特定的廠商獲得了許多限制型的標案"},{"start":8077.978,"end":8099.375,"text":"但是在黃國昌委員質詢之後呢您12月10號才說查無不法前前後後經歷了75天你從講政風調查到你公布報告也沒有到你中間對外有一個說法也沒有所以我今天其實是想要請教您不知道這個您的調查報告到底有出來嗎可以提供給我們嗎"},{"start":8101.313,"end":8117.266,"text":"內部調查報告已經完成我們署長在這邊他其實覺得這次雖然他沒有任何問題但是他自己也跟我要自己自請處分這個程序我們會在已經在進行內部的考試委員會裡面去做處分"},{"start":8117.466,"end":8146.066,"text":"沒關係部長我問你一個很簡單的問題因為這個公文上面有押您的名字嘛部長彭啟明那他說他需要進去貴賓室開會所以他需要帶兩位廠商人員他要開會嘛然後最後我看您對媒體的說法是最後廠商是沒有進去對就他而已這個會是開了嗎會是已經先開了嗎或者是他跟廠商走到會議室前面覺得說好像不妥不適合進去因此他沒有進去"},{"start":8148.487,"end":8173.616,"text":"部長回答就好我們署長他沒有開那他因為他本身自己信用卡刷就有機場貴賓室的權利所以我後來也通令我們的所有同仁以後這個是不允許的所以他如果知道他自己就可以使用他並沒有要發公文他其實也可以發第二份公文去說他不需要這樣子的安排不是嗎是所以我們內部已經要求說類似這樣的行為是我們本部是不可以的"},{"start":8174.416,"end":8200.737,"text":"好所以我們大概多久可以獲得您這個調查報告因為您9月27就說你要進行一個這個調查對我們已經其實我在他們大概一個月內就已經調查已經完成我也早就有看到了你一個月內調查完成可是你沒有跟我們講因為後來要進行懲處然後我們又在處理馬太安很多很多的事情所以這個部分因為現在那個我們署長他也有勇氣因為他回來之後馬上就去救災然後這件事都很忙那他也主動說因為懲處"},{"start":8202.518,"end":8219.093,"text":"包含了有些同仁很辛苦他只不過好意然後也要說要懲處所以我們署長也擔起責任他自己跟我自行處分好 所以我們一個禮拜應該可以跟你要調查報告調查報告沒問題但是我們最後考機我們有另一個審議的公部門的一個程序好 那下一張"},{"start":8220.755,"end":8248.117,"text":"關於這個黃國昌委員提到的限制型標案因為這一家一起跟署長出國的廠商他總共獲得有五個標案都是限制型的標案我們是不是可以也在一個禮拜內跟你要到一個報告就是你這些限制型的條件是哪些條件然後他是因為流標很多次或者是說他這五個標案到底有幾家是一起來標的到底是一家兩家三家或者是一直都只有他這一家"},{"start":8249.778,"end":8271.754,"text":"因為黃委員可能沒有在政府機關服務過限制性招標不是說我限制只有你可以來而是某一個條件是是是我們想知道我想跟你要這個資料第一個資料是您的限制性條件到底列哪些條件嗎就這五個標案然後第二個就是說這五個標案裡面大概每一個標案有幾個廠家來一起競標這樣"},{"start":8273.095,"end":8280.646,"text":"方便嗎這個沒有問題這個政府都是公開的沒有問題那我們就再跟您會後要這兩個資料好謝謝部長署長辛苦了謝謝好謝謝現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8318.522,"end":8323.185,"text":"小的透明的那種比較透明的那種"},{"start":8909.318,"end":8915,"text":"還有沒有人沒有回來勒好現在繼續開會請林淑芬委員發言好現在是不是我們請彭部長林委員好"},{"start":8929.602,"end":8940.47,"text":"部長我們在一夕之間就宣布了這個廚餘不再養豬那現在每天大概有幾千噸的廚餘大概現在1700多噸1700多噸瞬間成為燙手山芋一半進焚化爐"},{"start":8955.578,"end":8975.736,"text":"另外一半可能就掩埋然後就是這樣子生殖冷生殖冷的量就固定了你是有設定目標但現在就是生殖冷幾乎就是那麼一點點所以這個政策急轉彎的後果大多數還是要靠我們老舊翻新的焚化爐來承擔"},{"start":8977.642,"end":9005.394,"text":"那我們走到第一線的垃圾處理現場我們看到很荒謬的景象現在含水量高達80%的生熟廚餘放到焚化爐裡面這個焚化爐就像在燒開水一樣不僅大幅降低了焚化的溫度減損了發電的效率而且大家都知道超零服役的焚化爐面臨了更嚴重的設備耗損的風險"},{"start":9007.873,"end":9024.558,"text":"所以你在報告裡面提到要將廚餘處理設施的量能提升到每天2119噸聽起來像是政績 但事實上我需要跟你分享你卻暴露了我們對於源頭減量的無能為力"},{"start":9028.001,"end":9043.75,"text":"你們現在想的是說我們把廚餘的量能提高到生產的量能可以處理這些廚餘就好了可是你們從來都沒有想過說真正的正本清源是要源頭減量"},{"start":9045.526,"end":9073.275,"text":"那我們一方面喊著2050要淨零排放可是另外一方面都用這個高耗能的方式去燒掉或許裡面還有很多是可以餵飽弱勢族群的食物有一些是可以轉化為肥沃土壤的有機質聯合國的數據告訴我們食物浪費貢獻了多少%的溫室氣體排放你知道嗎大概10%左右"},{"start":9073.871,"end":9101.334,"text":"差不多所以這些食物浪費貢獻了10%的溫室氣體的排放所以歐盟已經透過廢棄物框架指令要來重新分配這個配置食物的資源我們還在煩惱廚餘太臭沒有人要還在想要蓋幾座的生殖能廠來消化這些錯置的資源"},{"start":9102.415,"end":9117.252,"text":"我的意思是說你們的想像你們的政策裡面到現在為止你們的政策都沒有重新分配食物資源的這個概念完全都沒有所以我們今天就是要請你說你要跳出把廚藥當成垃圾處理的這一個舊思維"},{"start":9123.439,"end":9139.162,"text":"而是要跳到循環經濟裡面的架構來看那我們知道歐盟的處理政策開始談歐盟的處理政策並不是獨立存在的而是架構在歐盟運作的條約第191條的環境條款跟2015年的循環經濟的行動計畫的宏觀的架構裡面"},{"start":9150.464,"end":9177.197,"text":"他的核心邏輯是一定要嚴格的遵守廢棄物管理階層的優先順序你知道他們的優先順序是什麼嗎歐盟這段我沒有看到他第一個優先順序處理這個循環經濟這個食物廢棄物管理階層優先順序第一一定要預防最優先要從源頭避免浪費"},{"start":9178.357,"end":9204.53,"text":"第二要再利用供人類食用就是食物捐贈這是僅次與預防的最佳方案要做食物捐贈第三動物飼料第四工業生殖能第五堆肥第六最後最後不得已最終的不得已是焚化和掩埋它是最後手段"},{"start":9205.59,"end":9209.133,"text":"對照我們的狀況我們的政策中心現在你都是選擇456就是生殖能堆肥焚化這個在歐盟的這一個廢棄物管理階層的優先順序裡面都是很低階的"},{"start":9223.744,"end":9244.3,"text":"價值流失較多的處理方式歐盟他們優先是要將資源的價值要保留在經濟體系當中的最高位置也就是要儘可能保留它作為食物的形態而不是廢棄物的形態所以我現在要請你們"},{"start":9247.222,"end":9263.128,"text":"用科學的數據來治理從末端的氫運量統計要走向全生命週期的食物浪費的統計你們光是統計就沒有統計了所以你會告訴我你們一年產生多少的食物浪費部長你講的出來嗎"},{"start":9265.629,"end":9288.535,"text":"說真的台灣的數據我有問了基本上是沒有沒有統計那也跟委員報告其實我們行政院的報告裡面我們有特別加進去一個就是重新再推動食農洗食的教育就是委員你說的那我們現在正在整合因為我覺得我們這個過去早就有推可是都很分散沒有啦食農洗食是口號"},{"start":9289.355,"end":9291.398,"text":"如果你連產生多少量你都統計不出來你根本不知道你有沒有洗到這個洗到時根本不知道啊環境部的統計數字永遠是清潔隊的回收量"},{"start":9305.197,"end":9331.757,"text":"但是這種數據 你說你有多少廚餘 剩食你們就只有清潔隊的回收量 是末端的處理量而不是源頭的產生量 更不是食物的浪費量你都不知道食物浪費多少 你怎麼捨談 洗食呢你怎麼知道有沒有洗食所以不要把它變成抽象的 道德的口號"},{"start":9333.318,"end":9356.292,"text":"環境部的統計邏輯喔將所有的有機廢棄物混在一起秤重啊一桶來自自助餐的廚餘桶裡面混了沒有吃完的白飯現在連排骨也可以丟進去連被料時削下來的果皮也都可以放進去混在一起送上垃圾車秤重所以這個重量是什麼 沒有意義"},{"start":9357.313,"end":9382.458,"text":"沒有意義這個數字也沒有告訴你們這些決策者有多少的比例是因為供應鏈的管理不當而過期的麵包有多少比例是因為消費者習慣而倒掉的剩食如果我們沒有辦法區分可以避免的浪費和不可避免的廢棄物我們的減量 洗食就是口號而已啊 保重"},{"start":9383.498,"end":9403.852,"text":"那你們的公告因回收或再利用廢棄物再生資源項目你們的項目上面怎麼寫你要先統計啊沒有任何統計的這個數字沒有計算就沒有所謂的減量可是你們的公告因回收再利用廢棄物再生資源項目只有一個項目叫什麼你們一個叫做除以兩個字"},{"start":9409.571,"end":9421.676,"text":"事業產生出來的廚餘就是廚餘兩個字你們在廚餘裡面沒有其他的概念了你覺不覺得應該要有其他的概念在統計上光從正本清源的統計上沒有辦法設定減量啊你怎麼設定減量連統計都沒有連計算都沒有怎麼設定減量"},{"start":9433.496,"end":9452.767,"text":"包括委員廚餘記得有分不一樣的類別我們林副署長你要不要說明一下廚餘有分類但是委員說的這個我們的例如說餐廳或是一般團散出來的那個部分的確是缺乏統計資料啦我現在要跟你講我他山之石可以公錯了我已經講很多遍一直跟你講"},{"start":9454.791,"end":9469.209,"text":"對比之下 歐盟早在10年前就意識到這個問題了歐盟執委會為了達成聯合國SDG12.3 減少糧食浪費的目標啟動了歐盟食物浪費預防 還有社會創新計畫 簡稱Fusion"},{"start":9473.314,"end":9491.582,"text":"他的futures他不是一個簡單的統計專案而是關於一場關於定義的革命定義definition的定義他的核心價值在於他建立了一套非常嚴謹的定義的框架他不再籠統的簡稱叫做廚餘副署長"},{"start":9496.204,"end":9514.336,"text":"你們除了廚宇以外還有其他名稱嗎?還有其他統計嗎?是 我們的一般廢棄物裡面是有一個廚宇這個名稱事業廢棄物裡面有廚宇的名稱那還有一些是說剩食那剩食裡面又有分成是來自於比如說工廠的那一些我們有植物性殘渣 動物性殘渣還有一些下腳料等等所以這個是統稱 統稱叫廚宇事實上它在個別的代碼存在"},{"start":9522.472,"end":9550.443,"text":"最終還是混在一起啦一個委員報告就是說 洗食的東西我對於現在的洗食是不滿意的啦所以我已經請我們製造不滿意要有手段要有方法要改革而且它必須從定義開始我就跟你講歐盟它首先強制跟食物廢棄物區分為它並不是你們講的下甲料什麼剩食廚餘剩食跟廚餘它不是一樣"},{"start":9551.423,"end":9570.719,"text":"它是區分為可以食用的部分跟不可食用的部分那為什麼要這樣子區分呢因為這樣子要對接到不同的管理的工具政策工具會不一樣所以對於可食用的部分比如說過期的吐司 外觀炒肉的蔬果"},{"start":9571.7,"end":9586.714,"text":"這個是資源錯置啊政策的目標是要預防跟再分配例如說要捐贈給食物銀行但是對不可食用的部分像蛋殼、骨頭才是真正的廢棄物它的政策目標應該是價值轉化譬如說拿去驗養發酵產氣"},{"start":9591.718,"end":9610.053,"text":"那歐盟透過這套的方法制定了統一的量化手冊要求成員國在食物供應鏈的六大階段從初級生產、加工、製造、批發物流、零售市場到餐飲服務業到家庭消費進行全面的盤查他要盤查六個階段都要做"},{"start":9615.898,"end":9640.488,"text":"然後讓歐盟能夠精準的抓出原本在生產端有大量的農產品因為外觀不符合超市的規格而被拋棄而在消費端有大量的食物因為標示不清楚而被拋棄有了這套數據以後第一它才能夠訂出精準的廢棄物框架指令"},{"start":9641.468,"end":9663.698,"text":"那有這個廢棄物框架的指令才能夠強制要求大型企業揭露數據才能夠對症下藥你看我們台灣還在用多少量總重量來自我安慰以為說出於回收率高就是做環保殊不知我們的回收一半以上可能是有可能啊你是不應該要丟棄的食物啊"},{"start":9665.979,"end":9679.433,"text":"更不要講說歐盟第二個人家在進一步在2025年更修訂了再一次的修訂指令為了要達到2030年將人均食物的浪費要減半的目標人家訂出浪費減半的目標"},{"start":9683.797,"end":9709.663,"text":"而且减少生产和供应链中的食物损失他们要求成员国要在2030年前将加工制造环节的食物浪费要减少10%此外成员国在零售和消费的环节比如说在餐厅在餐饮服务机构和家庭要设定人均食物的浪费要减少30%"},{"start":9712.311,"end":9724.856,"text":"所以你剛剛講治理不能變成空話沒有盤查就沒有管理沒有辦法設定政策工具更談不上減量的目標所以不會源頭減量你現在說我要增加去化去除這些廢棄物的處理量能"},{"start":9734,"end":9743.813,"text":"這個都是末端啊要生產更多生產過更多然後你再蓋更多這個不是從來都不是這樣子不應該是這樣子報告委員其實我的確是"},{"start":9749.8,"end":9776.059,"text":"我們的確有在研究法國的食物浪費法避免食物浪費法那他到底怎麼做的我們也在看甚至像韓國韓國他的廚餘都要秤重的要付費的我們也都在觀察就是怎麼樣去推動因為我們的確對於浪費食物台灣過去並沒有一個很好的政策道德性的去做處理而已所以我也贊同委員說的但是這個部分我們需要跨部會去做例如說我們現在很多的團散"},{"start":9777.14,"end":9798.029,"text":"製造一堆三成的變成廚餘這個其實就是有問題嘛這個很多問題啊對啊那比如說你們的2050的循環經濟路徑裡面鴛鴦傻傻說建立食品供應鏈減損管理的策略聽起來很好啊你說這個食物浪費法聽起來好像很好啊可是你們要具體的管理的工具啊具體管理的工具和手段在哪裡"},{"start":9798.889,"end":9807.376,"text":"所以你不是說定一個這個處於這個食品浪費法就好了你要導入你要先導入你先要統計啊你要像Fusion一樣的盤查方法所謂的供應鏈減損如果你沒有這種盤查的話這供應鏈減損就是一句空話根據公視的報導目前列管的1490家的超市和量販業者當中你現在講說要個別家庭出入要秤重要計價你為什麼不從業者開始"},{"start":9828.212,"end":9832.797,"text":"1490家的超市和量販業者當中他們每年申報一萬一千噸的廢棄食品耶一萬一千噸耶1490家而已請問部長這一萬一千噸裡面有多少是還可以吃但是被丟掉的有多少是已經腐敗不能吃的你們答不出來吧因為業者申報的時候根本不需要區分啊"},{"start":9853.976,"end":9871.013,"text":"對然後大多數直接去焚化爐燒掉但業者只要把東西交給清潔處理機構就好了啊責任就沒了啊業者根本不需要在乎任何的執行的細端是進到豬的肚子還是跑到焚化爐去都跟他無關都是你政府的責任嘛是"},{"start":9871.994,"end":9875.579,"text":"所以你們也不在乎啊但是當不能夠養豬以後你們就必須要在乎了啊但我講這一萬一千噸高熱脂的廢棄食品失去了養豬這個去處我們還是不知道他們的成分我們就沒有辦法精準的把他們導流"},{"start":9890.077,"end":9917.455,"text":"到底我們可能會把這個高原分的剩食送進堆肥廠它也毀了農地的土壤把高水分的果皮送進了焚化爐毀了爐體的耐火磚所以在這裡面你們的很多KPI啦但是你們的KPI到目前看起來永遠在追逐末端的處理設施的擴建而陷入了垃圾產生越多預算編列越多的惡性循環"},{"start":9920.657,"end":9932.982,"text":"你們的KPI說 堆肥啦 黑水盲啦 生殖能的處理廠啊提升全國處理的設施量能你們一天 2017年 116年要達到2119噸一天這是非常危險的指標設定欸"},{"start":9939.685,"end":9943.546,"text":"部長 你設定的指標是我們的目標是處理量能提升那就意味著處理越多越好嗎真正的循環經濟的目標應該是處理產生量要下降但我們過去幾年"},{"start":9955.771,"end":9970.793,"text":"精準的食物浪費的基準線都沒有辦法統計和設定怎麼去設定2030年要減少50%的食物浪費這麼精準的源頭減量的目標不可能嘛"},{"start":9972.065,"end":9976.388,"text":"所以我在這裡具體要求 最後我具體要求第一我請你半年內 半年內參照歐盟Fusion的架構發佈台灣版的食物浪費盤查指引"},{"start":9987.216,"end":9990.237,"text":"設定科學化的減量基準線而這個指引不能夠只是參考性質必須具有強制利入法強制要求從業者開始資本額達到一定規模以上的食品製造業餐飲業和零售通路商每年必須申報詳細的食物浪費盤查報告可以嗎"},{"start":10014.182,"end":10034.928,"text":"包委我非常同意你的做法包含我們未來其實我們那個整個在應急的這個處理的去化的處理裡面有留下一個伏筆就是源頭減量所以這個部分呢委員你提到的這個意見是我們的確是在看那我們現在是因為先應急但是後面的部分呢委員六個月太長我們會努力盡快之前會完成我很樂意聽到你這個但是這個報告必須揭露"},{"start":10037.549,"end":10058.656,"text":"那個企業一年採購了多少食物銷售了多少量丟棄了多少量在丟棄的部分當中可時跟不可時的比例為何流向跑到哪裡去了只有當這些數據被攤在陽光下企業才可以接受到社會責任的才可以接到社會監督感受到社會責任的壓力才會認真的去檢討採購跟庫存管理的流程這樣才能達到真正的源頭減量"},{"start":10064.798,"end":10088.331,"text":"但是我必須說我們的確還有一些相關的法規還要再配套還有食品安全管理的問題也是要配套還有責任的問題也是要配套這個我們執行細節再討論好 謝謝委員我們會趕快來做謝謝林淑芬委員謝謝林淑芬委員發言接下來請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":10096.052,"end":10099.453,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝主席 請部長請部長部長辛苦了謝謝我問三個問題簡單明瞭第一個現在台灣的露天的垃圾場還有幾座33座那個那個圖"},{"start":10125.117,"end":10128.701,"text":"沒有 下一張 這個怎麼63以前200多座嘛 這個應該是以前 以前還沒有處理的那你現在這些露天的 你給人家說2026年要全部慘評"},{"start":10145.629,"end":10174.863,"text":"你是要怎麼產品第一個是附土第二個是打包不是產品附土打包產品要等到焚化爐的量能夠才慢慢的把它處理還要一段時間所以就蓋蓋蓋這樣要二到零因為這個掩埋本來就是垃圾處理的方式之一但是我們現在我們先解決因為裸露的過去實在太多去年我上任的時候"},{"start":10176.003,"end":10200.508,"text":"甚至有人號稱百月 事實上是53座啦那現在是我們希望能夠減少因為住在附近的民眾真的很可憐啦所以我們是希望承諾說先把它蓋起來然後之後我們等到焚化爐的量夠之後一步一步的再來處理像台南前幾天灰燒起來 垃圾山灰燒是很病傷的事情"},{"start":10203.615,"end":10230.869,"text":"又很難泡沸因為你的水車去到那裡都要捏一捏水車載五檔、六檔的水去那裡就轉不三就完了所以只要垃圾山火燒都很難撲滅一燒就是一個禮拜、兩個禮拜、一個禮拜分汙染非常的嚴重那現在還有四個縣沒有焚化爐嘛"},{"start":10232.723,"end":10245.606,"text":"雲林、南島、花蓮、新的館新竹他已經在試營運了南投他自己我所知道他們地方要發飆然後澎湖他們自己有在討論其實我應該不太會發飆吧發飽啦"},{"start":10256.348,"end":10284.38,"text":"所以這是沒辦法驗收那他們現在都是掩埋還是拖到白天的關係我還去法輪 台南島都拖到台中刺燒嘛現在還有嗎現在因為台中自身難保所以他都還是自己有委託給別的縣市再處理啦但是等於是說量還是沒辦法去化所以還是要趕快給他們蓋啦我們屏東分類得很好所以效果不錯"},{"start":10285.24,"end":10303.805,"text":"是工商不發達還是怎樣垃圾量太少還是分類很好他們很努力啦所以屏東的這個原來的這個垃圾露天的這個裸露的這個其實已經沒有了沒有了黃寮那個好像也都沒了對沒有了解決了好第二個問題那個台灣黑熊往下跑日本棕熊也往下跑"},{"start":10315.087,"end":10343.349,"text":"臺灣的石斧也往下跑結果日本那邊有報說這跟光電板有關的 柏定是什麼這個我沒有特別的研究啦我會再來跟這個農業部來探討一下他說這個因為光電板太陽會動嘛所以光電板每一個角度都不一樣所以反射反光都不一樣那這些光害動物本身就很敏感鳥類也很敏感"},{"start":10344.332,"end":10365.72,"text":"那這些棲息在中中海海拔的像低海拔的石斧苗栗那邊都一直往往下走整個棲息地都破壞所以日本現在有一個提出一個看法說他們低海拔中海拔現在絕對不再做光電板屋頂的"},{"start":10367.287,"end":10390.067,"text":"光點板他們可以做,他們還是可以允許做,但是地海拔、中海拔他們都不做我們台灣,昨天有在這裏留研究一年,現在的錢都遭遭了來,這幾本都要送了現在台灣這幾年保育做得很好,你到山上可以看到很多山羌啊我到霧台那邊去,整條馬路旁邊都是猴子"},{"start":10391.148,"end":10394.409,"text":"我就給牠比這樣 凍蒜凍蒜牠也這樣 跟我一起跳我把牠撂回牆上看一看所以這些熊或者是野生動物的棲息"},{"start":10406.229,"end":10425.65,"text":"你要研究一下,你沒有這方面的idea因為這個是屬於農業部主管的,我們會給他研究不過委員,因為我們台灣的光電板的環評的標準在山坡地是全世界最嚴格的委員你放心,目前未來山坡地如果要光電板是很辛苦的"},{"start":10427.304,"end":10447.232,"text":"要管制啦,不要這樣一直破壞我們的環境喔你看這些光電板的葉子一個一個都出事啦,燒啊燒啊,這表示說有問題嘛弊端一大堆,我們環境部的人絕對不要去隱謀到裡面,不要牽扯到沒有沒有,我們是這個環評的審核單位,所以我們跟那個無關的"},{"start":10451.094,"end":10466.076,"text":"把關把得嚴一點不要受到壓力就亂核准這個是災難整個遺憾給子孫不可取啦你上次那些光電板33座"},{"start":10467.105,"end":10483.273,"text":"出事的現在復原到什麼程度現在它的量現在33座我們有拿到這個23座的它的這個數據每一個列拿的數據了然後其他的都是在已經進入這個去化的過程當中所以我也很放心我們都有列管好"},{"start":10489.685,"end":10500.972,"text":"這個問題,事業廢棄物那你現在SRF啦,你的事業廢棄物啦,你現在有沒有分類分得好?我看你們現在是蠻嚴格的啦想不想問你一下,醫療廢棄物現在怎麼處理?"},{"start":10508.48,"end":10533.952,"text":"醫療廢棄物現在一年大概是12萬噸那目前來說的話現在等於是說有分幾種的量大概12家啦然後滅菌再利用的8家其實目前的量能剛好是平衡的不過我是覺得因為我也聽到很多醫界的朋友說很貴啦很貴那我也會跟我們署長再想辦法說如何循環再利用的比例拉高減少它的負擔"},{"start":10534.392,"end":10552.607,"text":"那現在用紅袋裝的污染性廢墟都燒掉嘛黃袋是回收嘛那這是你們在控制還是醫事室在控制因為有些災利用是衛福部那邊公告的不過我們這邊還是會去輔導讓滅菌災利用這邊的量可以增加"},{"start":10557.594,"end":10578.992,"text":"就是說用黃帶的盡量鼓勵這樣可以回收是不是這樣嘛所以現在以前大部分都是用紅帶就直接燒掉 是不是很可惜啊那你現在黃帶的比例 副市長現在差不多8%跟蘇委員報告 根據環境部113年的資料顯示黃帶的再利用率是23%"},{"start":10582.366,"end":10596.137,"text":"百分之二十三所以一些比如洗腎的tube啦那些人工腎臟都可以破碎回收那你現在黃袋的價格跟紅袋的價格差很多嗎"},{"start":10599.683,"end":10617.247,"text":"價格應該蠻有差異的,可能是他的三分之一或二分之一就是說黃袋比較便宜,這樣喔?對對對,進行回收再利用的,滅菌再利用比較便宜就是鼓勵他們盡量回收就對了北斗你這裡有什麼,北斗我看醫療會期會都做到辛苦多了都做到要倒要倒,還有什麼事情?"},{"start":10622.268,"end":10636.436,"text":"不會啊,我訪視幾家都還因為他的收的費用還蠻高的但是量不多啦量不多啦所以有在輔導我看真的他們都艱苦經營"},{"start":10640.768,"end":10657.943,"text":"我們今年就是有綠色醫療方案去進行輔導所以像我們的25家醫學中心今年已經可以全部來推動我們生物醫療滅菌災難的工作像去年是比去年的話就多了4家了"},{"start":10660.282,"end":10676.231,"text":"這一方面回收再利用,滅菌之後回收再利用,因為常常接到他們的懲罰,所以保證跟我們貿易部這邊都要注意,如果需要幫忙就幫忙,我沒有講特定哪一家,這個是好事。"},{"start":10681.234,"end":10705.491,"text":"跟委員報告其實那個SRF它還是一個經過好好的管理它還是可以走的路啦那我也就是透過這個機會就是說如果好的可以繼續走社會也要慢慢可以接受因為我們經過一年的整頓其實整個成效還不錯啦慢慢得到大家的信賴不過還是有一段路要走啦還是被汙名化啦所以這個要輔導啦也要跟他們幫忙好 謝謝"},{"start":10710.404,"end":10737.78,"text":"好謝謝蘇青權委員發言請劉建國召委發言好謝謝主席那請部長請彭部長召委好部長這一本這一本你有沒有看過"},{"start":10739.298,"end":10754.422,"text":"環境部的全台垃圾山危機與社會氣候去化的專案報告有你有詳細看過我後來自己在做簡報我自己是簡報的版本可能有一些些我的簡報的部分會更細緻呈現"},{"start":10759.349,"end":10773.94,"text":"所以這個不夠細緻嘛因為我是看那個我自己核外在做這個在多做的更多對啊所以你就看這個覺得就是不夠細緻你才會再做另外那一份對要讓大家比較更清楚的了解如果說這份你有看過我是覺得"},{"start":10775.5,"end":10796.566,"text":"跟我對你的認識在你私生上的作為跟作風是有很大的落差是真的有很大的落差簡單講,台灣垃圾處理的觀念一直是落後國際這個我們不得不承認我在這個委員會也有一段時間也經歷過好幾屆的署長跟現在的部長那人家處理這個垃圾的"},{"start":10804.221,"end":10831.776,"text":"方法,其實好像人家在開跑車,我們一直在騎腳踏車啦不要說看不出車尾燈啦,先驗也驗不中啦因為你來當部長的時候,我覺得應該是有有不一樣來面對這個垃圾處理從減量嘛,從這個戰志啦,從到要掩埋是文化應該會有不一樣的一個思維跟做法但是我看這個報告裡面,沒有"},{"start":10833.001,"end":10852.948,"text":"就是完全沒有,所以我才會這麼講我們當時是在1990年的時候我們政府提出一線是一封萬路的政策那國際上當時歐洲等國家就已經確立減量與回收優先,魂化為主我們要以魂化為主,掩埋為虎的觀念"},{"start":10854.534,"end":10880.512,"text":"然後到2025年已經經過35年了三十五年了狀況仍然一樣我們面對垃圾問題我們思考是如何儘早掩埋、焚化沒有重新的去思考要如何再減量然後再到做最好的戰策的處理甚至於面對突然的災害還有焚化廠的睡秋的時候要如何去應驗短期這個暴增的垃圾"},{"start":10881.755,"end":10890.134,"text":"因為從今年的花蓮光復災害以及台中非洲豬瘟的事件我想是給我們臺灣很冷善的一刻沒有充分的事前準備"},{"start":10891.673,"end":10921.273,"text":"結果這個災害發生我們好像感覺到有在做啦但是中央跟地方來講感覺地方的束手無策全是顯示在國人的面前那中央當然也一直積極要去處理不過好像這個一直銜接不起來我在這個報告裡面然後再整理一些資料部長你就知道我要提出來說這個報告完全不是你的施政作用跟作為那你看喔部長在看這個表這是環境部建置的"},{"start":10921.854,"end":10932.829,"text":"全國螺絡堆積垃圾妥善處理監控平台上面很清楚顯示114年到現在全國各地野脈廠轉運站等垃圾堆積廠火災通報77次偷偷"},{"start":10937.795,"end":10964.1,"text":"也就是說這些堆置廠平均每兩週就發生一起火災這個不是零屁設施這不是險惡設施這叫危險設施然後111年至今新竹21起我的母縣因為現在竟然也11起來澎湖連離島的澎湖也10起所以我們在垃圾這個戰事的整個管理上"},{"start":10965.06,"end":10971.306,"text":"落天的關係上,根本就是鬆散,毫無機率,而且我們還設置這個平台,還讓這樣的事情持續在發生。我是要說,這是完全搞到不得了。這個就有陰謀論,這個民間有講的嘛。像是上去不能修,不一定可以照亮全部修一修嘛。再來,記者有問題。"},{"start":10990.302,"end":11018.401,"text":"這個中央當時對焚化爐的政策從公辦公營、公辦民營到民辦民營坦白講這中間有很多人當時在上下起手也有很多人因為這個樣子因案因這樣的案子被抓去官判刑執行完畢了這是顯示顯示這個政策基本上必須要大幅的去面對然後去做修正不然這件事情還是會層出不窮因為到現在還有人期待要蓋焚化爐"},{"start":11020.54,"end":11049.993,"text":"那我現在想說他這個他這個知道這個狀況反而沒有在期待焚化爐那直接搞一個露天的焚化廠來做焚化不然怎麼會這個樣子兩個禮拜一次兩個禮拜燒一次兩個禮拜燒一次不分本島跟離島然後我們還設置這個監控平台那第二件事情12月1號我們環境部發一個新聞稿集團7號加劇環境部督促地方政府加強掩埋掩場的防災管理"},{"start":11050.56,"end":11067.357,"text":"然後研擬什麼?研擬災害廢棄物管理指引你知道如果不發這條新聞我會不會覺得我不知道這是不是經過部長的同意還是部長的指示然後來研擬這樣的一個指引到現在研擬指引有用嗎?"},{"start":11069.209,"end":11083.025,"text":"到現在,面對這麼多場的火災,我們還沿你指引,你覺得有嗎?而且你沒指引,我看你報告,好像到明年的二月,農曆過年前後才要出來,不知道要再燒幾百啊?照這樣的比例,發生率來講,"},{"start":11088.65,"end":11114.855,"text":"我針對當時衛福部啦 不管凱凱案啦 不管那個蘇安隆案都有啊 地方政府也有訂指引啊中央也有指引啊地方政府覺得說我們訂的還比你中央的指引更好因為這個完全沒有法律上的效力啦完全沒有啦所以一旦要等到燒出事情 燒出任命我們大家才警覺然後才覺得這非常嚴重的事情我們才要去做面對"},{"start":11116.294,"end":11139.924,"text":"我覺得這不對啦依照部長的個性還有施政的作風我想這個應該我們立法院來修懷也不為過所以你們要不要趕快你們要趕快去面對然後去調整然後去修正你們相關的辦法來好處理這個事情不然今天召委排這個專報你不要召委排完之後兩個禮拜又不曉得哪一個縣市的暫時的垃圾對市長又燒一次還是兩個禮拜內燒兩次沒道理啦"},{"start":11146.868,"end":11167.109,"text":"所以我希望部長就是面對這個事情,依照你的施政的作風作為,應該是很積極的,該修辦法去修辦法,該提到我們來修木瓦,我們就來做修木瓦嘛。戰資產的相關規定都在一般的虧金回收清除處理的辦法中,所以我在這邊要去理跟部長建議啦。"},{"start":11167.99,"end":11195.908,"text":"我們應該整個梳理這相關規定 同時是不是找專家包含相關單位 地方政府的意見訂定一個專門針對垃圾戰車場的管理辦法好 好不好 我覺得這要訂出來啦 好不好因為你今天報告裡面有用自己的車子 你這塊有尾車嘛有要求專家學者去中央地方相關部會來討論以有具有初步具體內容具體內容是不是可以輸出於在修訂相關辦法裡面好"},{"start":11197.679,"end":11214.336,"text":"一個星期可以吧委員因為這個是因為我們包含我們同仁這個上個禮拜也到日本去問他們專家因為日本很理想說例如說我們的堆製值的五公尺高然後多大的面積然後我有我在但是這個在台灣喔差很多我知我知"},{"start":11218.119,"end":11243.392,"text":"台灣齁 你在做補兌肥養有很多輸肥跟做法也不一定輸一份啦我們等到看一份肥養我們才有在做啦對齁 一九九五年到現在二十五年三十五年啊我們還在處理垃圾的戰事處理的相關辦法然後要去嚴定指引你去看日本也沒有用啊你去看美國也沒有用啊你去看歐美也有什麼用那是心態問題啦"},{"start":11245.523,"end":11271.31,"text":"那心態問題不比35天現在還在補責嘛我講白話就是這樣啊你再看你們12月的時候又出了一則新聞這個新聞我看了我看了實在是還蠻混淆的台中市環保局出妙招出妙招出妙招還是真的有夠奇妙妙妙妙什麼妙招要收垃圾再打包避免發臭四處飛"},{"start":11273.868,"end":11298.153,"text":"垃圾打包垃圾分選垃圾打包什麼時候環境部從環保署的時代什麼時候開始實施中央跟台中市政府有城鄉落差進入到時空隧道嗎是從1990年到現在2025年中央的這個垃圾的分選打包跟台中市政府是有有這樣的疏離感嗎這個叫妙招"},{"start":11303.125,"end":11325.356,"text":"這個會叫妙招這既定的啦 這個以前很久就這樣做了不管媒體怎麼下標我是覺得為什麼到現在台中市的環保局才會來處理這個事情然後被媒體形容叫做妙招你環境部都沒有妙招啦好可憐喔台中市現在有妙招了你們死定了你們要被挑戰了"},{"start":11327.028,"end":11352.227,"text":"不只這樣啊114年1月9號部長這個是你下去的嘛然後你邀請各縣市由裸露垃圾堆置的縣市環保局長共同宣示並簽署合作宣言持續透過數位化的管理源頭減量資源回收垃圾場整理及垃圾打包減農我不曉得這個減農這個農的意思是怎樣"},{"start":11354.209,"end":11357.037,"text":"就是不要裸露啦不要裸露造成環境問題啦那為什麼用這個籠"},{"start":11360.728,"end":11389.726,"text":"就是原來的這個裸露實在很不好看而且造成這個蒼蠅衛生的問題惡臭的問題所以減少這個垃圾場醜陋的容貌啦對對對大包啦我可以這樣解釋嗎是是是減少現在看到很多這個暫時堆置場裸露的醜陋的容貌的垃圾場啦是是等多項措施嘛然後中央跟地方共同合作在114年底前達成妥善解決各件事裸露堆置的問題嘛是當時的嗎是這是年初的"},{"start":11390.226,"end":11414.798,"text":"對,年初的時候那現在年底耶,地方政府環保局,台中市環保局講說沒有招所以你看喔,台中市環保局的局長還是副局長沒有一起跟你們召開這個會嗎?有,前任局長也在這邊那其實我所知道的是他們堆的非常非常的多比大家想像中還要多很多"},{"start":11415.894,"end":11433.7,"text":"所以你們1月份也是有邀請他們嘛,對不對?怎麼會年初邀請他們,年底的時候他們有這樣好像發掘到新的一個處理...我小時候...講到自己會覺得說,我怎麼會拿這兩個東西去做比較?問到那個前途都沒有了,真的問到那個前途都沒有了所以你現在在訂指引,有用嗎?沒有用啦"},{"start":11442.061,"end":11456.964,"text":"絕對沒有,連一個用處都沒有啦再來看,過去騰雍市不是沒有處理啊這個是在前市長的任內,2021年的之前應該是更早,110對2021年,有啊,不是沒有做啊整齊劃一,也不用再減農了啦不用再減少醜陋的熱市場的流氓了現在2025怎麼變這樣啊怎麼現在才會再出妙招"},{"start":11472.759,"end":11501.244,"text":"我想打包垃圾基本上當然是要多花一點錢啦因為一路線也是靠環境部的補助四千一百多萬應該還不止啦對不對要更多嘛然後就用這個壓縮護膜去打包的方式那可以減少這樣的醜陋的容貌然後還可以抑制這個惡臭的發生嘛對啊這很久啊很久啊對啊怎麼會變成台中市環保局的妙招"},{"start":11503.177,"end":11525.235,"text":"所以我還是請部長研究相關的計畫更積極的計畫然後是不是一個更妥善的處理方式然後有具體的這樣的一個減料的一個KPI我們呈給我們的委員會大家再來督促好不好好 沒問題一個月內嘛好 謝謝委員謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉建國委員發言接下來請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":11542.219,"end":11545.209,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請彭部長是"},{"start":11549.881,"end":11574.489,"text":"王偉豪部長好今天排這個題目看起來真的垃圾不分藍綠白大家要共同來關心我們也了解垃圾一直都是台灣民眾非常非常關心的問題那也經過您這兩年來大力的希望能夠透過各種的不管是好的方法或者是好的思維來解決民眾"},{"start":11575.689,"end":11602.908,"text":"每天要製造可是又希望能夠透過政府部門努力來解決的這樣的困難這邊就有三個部分議題要跟部長來討論第一個就是有關於各縣市有在裸露堆積垃圾處理的進度第二部分資源循環跟廢棄物管理的預算是不是有在討整的空間第三個就是強化源頭減量跟資源循環的政策"},{"start":11603.709,"end":11631.409,"text":"那有關於今天的重點之一就是各縣市這些裸露堆積垃圾的處理進度剛剛很多委員也都非常非常的關心剛剛劉委員也提到部長那個時候有跟各個地方的環保局長宣示在115年的時候就要把這個裸露垃圾做一個完整的處理或至少要達到一定的目標這個是大家非常關心的那早上口頭報告裡面部長也提到"},{"start":11631.829,"end":11643.218,"text":"目前53座的這個裸露垃圾場已經從53場減了20座只剩下33場那在佔滯量的部分呢從84噸減到60萬噸左右已經雖然預計40萬噸的目標還有一段距離可是至少又在努力的處理當中"},{"start":11651.525,"end":11665.917,"text":"可是我們看到的報告好像又不太一樣這個是我們今年11月30號的數據就是來自貴部的環境管理署看到其實目標達成率是27.6"},{"start":11668.799,"end":11696.801,"text":"顯然是有一些落差那這個落差裡面我們比較關心的就是好像各個縣市又不太一樣我們也知道垃圾處理其實是地方主管機關需要努力來達成的目標可是有一些縣市可能也剛好今年有一些風災或相關的這些自然災害造成了影響像台南市或者是像花蓮縣目前的這個達成率好像都掛零"},{"start":11697.461,"end":11711.342,"text":"那台中市也是有同樣的掛零的狀況那當然有一些縣市做得非常好包括像屏東縣市100%還有澎湖縣有大達95%那到底為什麼會有這樣的落差是"},{"start":11713.064,"end":11727.526,"text":"出現了哪一些的相關的問題因為事實上當初各縣市的這些衛生主管的局長們也都有共同來開會那這個落差的情形是會造成目前這個狀況是不是有哪一些問題"},{"start":11728.487,"end":11757.47,"text":"那中央如何能夠進一步來督導協助這部分可以請部長說明好 謝謝委員第一個是像花蓮、台南、台中台中是本身的問題就壓力就很大它的焚化爐其實整個去化然後我所瞭解的他們的垃圾佔據的量比我們想像中看到的數據還要多很多那台南是因為風災那兩個縣是沒有問題很努力積極就是屏東然後嘉義市這兩個已經沒有露天裸露的"},{"start":11757.99,"end":11773.42,"text":"那當然啦現在的情況是說因為我們現在也把錢都下去了然後他們也跟我們承諾未來這幾個月會加速的發包來弄所以裸露的部分應該我希望是可以有一個進度啦但是"},{"start":11774.12,"end":11799.346,"text":"因為多了這個20萬噸因為本來是今年要41萬噸年底要41萬噸但是多了20萬噸就是這個天災多了15萬15萬多然後另外一個除以4.5萬這個是年初的時候沒有想到會多得到那麼的多那花蓮的話是因為這次的這個馬太安的事情天災也有一點點影響所以大概是這樣那我覺得我們會努力的再跟各縣市一個一個來來討論來解決啦"},{"start":11801.547,"end":11820.852,"text":"因為這個是每個縣市狀況都不一樣需要個別個別的來給他們鼓勵支持好那部分這部分就麻煩部長多費心因為每一個縣市基本上每個民眾都很期待這個羅洛羅垃圾可以好好的處理因為再過來我們看到就是火警"},{"start":11822.692,"end":11848.906,"text":"剛才陸委員也提到到目前為止至少已經有24起的火警那這個火警要處理真的是非常的困難的同時它對於相關地方所造成的影響真的非常非常的明顯不管是空氣的污染土地水質的污染等等那這部分有沒有除了現有的政策以外部長有沒有心中有哪一些認為需要再積極加強的部分"},{"start":11849.266,"end":11864.987,"text":"好 謝謝委員這個因為我上任之後也經歷了幾個火警特別是前幾個禮拜那個台南的烏樹林的這個火警那我當然一開始我們覺得跟大家都一樣覺得說為什麼要燒了那麼久燒那麼久後來現場去看才知道說哇那裡面"},{"start":11865.728,"end":11887.967,"text":"很大 真的很大 裡面的溫度400-500度我們的消防單位很努力在救24小時救很多的車都只能用傳統的方法去做處理所以針對這個 例如說火災的預防我們現在雖然有監控還有灑水設備但是這種大型的掩埋場或是站置場那種處理是我們的經驗是不夠的"},{"start":11889.528,"end":11911.293,"text":"然後救災的機制也不夠所以我們現在是希望跟這個單位一起來合作把這個方法有沒有新的方法來解決這個問題那這個再給我們一點點時間我們會找一些消防專業的人跟我們的同仁一起來合作協同因為這個是消防署跟我們的這個連結要預防那又未來救火方式也要做調整"},{"start":11911.833,"end":11931.805,"text":"是這個顯然需要更多的專家或者是相關有經驗的人士共同來討論希望能夠具體的把這個火警的部分從預防然後再處理還有後續相關的部分都能夠大家一起努力的來把它處理到一個到位的程度"},{"start":11932.665,"end":11953.134,"text":"好 再過來就是有關於預算的部分我記得去年10月份的時候就有跟部長來討論說希望能夠爭取未來循環經濟相關的預算可以增加這個我們很了解吧 因為有好的預算才有辦法把事情做得更為到位那可是我們看到就是這幾年來113年的預算編列出來預算是9億"},{"start":11956.716,"end":11973.492,"text":"那今年是7億到明年如果總預算通過的話只剩下更少5億那這一部分是不是在爭取預算上有什麼困難那怎麼應應嗎因為我們知道如何能夠讓這個資源再利用是很重要的一個需求"},{"start":11974.233,"end":11975.434,"text":"所以業務執行上不會造成任何衝擊吧"},{"start":12005.098,"end":12030.24,"text":"在中央部我們在源頭減壓有在爭取經費那對於一些像我們要去做綠色設計或者是循環產品都有一些推動經費來做不過我們也不知道那個時候是新增的預算啊啊等於是新增的預算如果我們預算沒有過我是完全沒辦法執行的就跟我營建剩餘土石坊跟這個智慧圍籬如果我們沒有審預算我1月1號1月2月可能都沒辦法做"},{"start":12030.66,"end":12048.456,"text":"我希望快一點所以我們希望總預算能夠無期來處理對於源頭減量跟資源循環改善的部分剛剛有提到一個很重要的就是有關於固態再生燃料的部分其實很多委員都很關心包括在座的土耳其議員我也跟他討論過"},{"start":12049.517,"end":12076.727,"text":"針對這個SRF如何能夠讓民眾更有信心知道說他們所可能以為跟所謂的這個焚化爐的使用有一些誤解的部分那如何能夠讓民眾更有信心的來做這方面的理解跟未來可以爭取所有民眾可以共同支持因為這個是一個很重要的一個在利用的一個好的機制那這部分可不可以請部長也在這裡再說明"},{"start":12078.328,"end":12098.439,"text":"好謝謝委員因為SRF其實我還沒上任前就知道這個爭議實在太大而且缺乏管理的機制那經過這一年多我們這個特別是一家一家去體檢一家一家看然後找出問題然後找專家提出一個方法而且提出了一個白皮書未來怎麼發展現在也會定期去做監控"},{"start":12099.179,"end":12120.92,"text":"那當然啦我們是以台灣的現在量能其實有些SRF的廠我們還是希望各個縣市首長能夠讓他能夠順利去推展不然該縣市的這個SRF或是垃圾處理都會出問題所以我們是鼓勵在做那有些的這個SRF的這個使用廠他其實我們也期待說如果地方有希望"},{"start":12122.082,"end":12141.304,"text":"嚴格的標準我們也鼓勵他所以目前我們也有這樣的一個溝通但是因為裡面的許可權都還是要在地方政府的身上我們未來一定會負責把關只會更嚴希望他更好過去的各位的疑慮現在我可以說已經顯著的改善了"},{"start":12141.724,"end":12157.567,"text":"是 我們希望好的政策可以讓它如期得到民眾的支持那最後其實就是有關於這個加護廚餘因為突然每一天會增加593噸的這個加護廚餘那有沒有短中長期的一些想法跟做法"},{"start":12157.847,"end":12177.579,"text":"好謝謝委員第一個是說我們大概整個平衡量能平衡會還要在一年多的時間完全balance不用進到焚化爐燒我們是希望不要進到焚化爐燒因為這個處於是一種資源所以當然有一些增加的一個措施現在都在開展當中這第一個但是現在短期"},{"start":12177.759,"end":12205.18,"text":"因為要把不要未租所以這個去化要到焚化爐還是有我們會密切的監控那另外一個呢是這種設施的興建我們已經在鼓勵地方政府在做了還有一個最重要就是源頭減量所以包含了這個如何去設計一個更好更有效的不是只有宣導式的洗石或是整個源頭減量的一個策略這個是最重要的那這個部分我們現在正在規劃當中希望這個一兩個月內可以提出來一個更具體的甚至"},{"start":12205.92,"end":12227.285,"text":"剛剛也有委員建議說是不是有一些像比照歐盟的法規其實我們都有在讀但是畢竟台灣從來沒有對食物浪費好好的去做規劃那我們也希望我們可以提出來但是這個提出來之後就像說這次的廚餘其實就要變成成本了以後廚餘就是有成本了大家也不大習慣一樣所以這個部分真的是需要一個轉型啦"},{"start":12227.759,"end":12246.049,"text":"好那如果討論有決議或者是內容的話也麻煩提供給我們辦公室來做一個參考那最後一點就是剛有提到全國醫療機構相關的這些在利用的部分我們也發現每日床的這個總費器物生產量其實過去這幾年還是有在"},{"start":12247.41,"end":12269.199,"text":"逐步的增加當中從105年的2.97公斤每日到13年的3.58它只是看起來好像數字沒有那麼驚人事實上那個量其實也是蠻大的那再利用率也有稍微增加那我其實在今年的3月份也麻煩部長還有那個時候的邱部長也一起去林口長庚做考察"},{"start":12269.719,"end":12278.966,"text":"那這部分目前兩個部會有沒有積極的在研討針對這個醫療廢棄物如何再利用的部分有做哪一些的討論跟加強"},{"start":12279.977,"end":12301.632,"text":"那剛委員報告那我們就是在今年有個綠色醫療方案那其中就是把醫院裡面他有些廢棄物那有沒有可以再盤點那分類之後那可以來這個滅菌就進行再量那就不用去焚化了所以這邊都有在做那我們有今年有去大型先從這個醫學中心的醫院先去做起那今年"},{"start":12302.293,"end":12325.442,"text":"大概全數已經都可以來參與我們這些免疫災難的工作了是 所以大型醫院 醫療機構都有共同來參與是 那我們希望因為醫療都會幾乎其實造成的影響會越來越明顯貴部是需要好好的來加強輔導或者是協助醫療機構共同來處理這邊的部分好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝王振旭委員發言"},{"start":12332.509,"end":12348.261,"text":"請圖權級委員發言好 謝謝主席 那請我們彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":12353.53,"end":12379.499,"text":"土耳原好部長我們現在有預計2027我們廚藝養豬是全面要退場那在2028針對我們焚化掩埋到時候也是要歸零對不對我們預計的期程大概是這樣其實歸零的話應該在兩年多後就會歸零就是差不多2028我是希望可以快一點啦例如說廚藝的量可以減少源頭減量會更快"},{"start":12380.539,"end":12397.654,"text":"所以到時候我們大宗大宗的部分大部分會變成堆肥然後再來還有什麼生殖能等等嘛那我們上一次也有到我們未還委員會也有到桃園去考察針對我們生殖能中心還有民間廚餘去化的機構去考察"},{"start":12400.356,"end":12426.482,"text":"那我們那時候有看到我們民間廚餘去化這個機構它佔地面積又小而且它三個小時就可以把廚餘去化變成堆肥那它液體的部分可以做有機的營養液那固體的部分它可以做有機的肥料而且它這個是我們中興大學跟中研院產學合作的成果那而且它一天"},{"start":12427.462,"end":12444.141,"text":"處理的量能可以到100噸甚至可以更高那針對這部分部長對這個技術覺得如果說我們到時候進廚藝是不是這個部分應該要去大力推廣一下包委我上禮拜也去那個廠看過了那其實第一個是說它的這個"},{"start":12445.622,"end":12474.133,"text":"這個早溢的部分其實它是有用的可是現在變成是廢棄物去做處理也讓它的這個整個去化的成本這個一噸大概要五千六百塊所以我們現在會協調我們已經跟那個農業部有在協調說如何把那個去化做更有效的利用不要把它當成廢棄物啦這個我們在談但是農業部那邊有一些原來法規上的一個限制所以目前我們正在協調當中那我是希望像這個廠商它可以"},{"start":12475.313,"end":12496.26,"text":"讓它可以更好就可以更成功的解決廚藝去化的問題因為現在是我們政策的問題啦它本來所有的這些廚餘它可以百分之百的廚餘而且沒有碳排沒有汙染可以做成有機營養液然後固體的又做有機肥料剛剛部長講到一個重點它本來這個有機營養液其實"},{"start":12498.341,"end":12521.543,"text":"養豬業者拿回去加熱以後就可以餵豬可是因為現在我們政策問題以後廚藝不能去餵豬所以它的有機營養液反而變成就像剛剛部長講的它變成沒有用的所以它變成要去找污水處理所以它現在面臨很大的問題成本又提高那還有一個我們污水處理的量能也是問題對"},{"start":12523.406,"end":12549.228,"text":"各位有報告,其實不只只有它,包含桃園的生殖能中心其實它也有這樣的早疫的問題,那我們的確是希望能夠來解決那當然農業部陳部長也跟我在討論那他們那邊正在處理,在協調當中我們希望可以盡快有一些方案,讓這些產業降低它的成本因為是不是資源,是不是廢棄物,就是在法規的解釋跟認定上面有一個更好的協調"},{"start":12550.609,"end":12576.603,"text":"所以因為他現在也碰到一個問題因為那時候非洲豬瘟他們為了幫地方政府處理這個廚餘結果這個廚餘它有機營養育又不能拿去養豬又當作汙水處理那所以這部分可能農業部經濟部跟環境部應該要好好的協調一下經濟部處理這個汙水處理廠這個量能他也達不到有時候要迅速處理可能又超標結果他變成"},{"start":12578.466,"end":12602.107,"text":"幫地方政府處理廚餘結果因為這個污水的濃度太高結果變成他排放出來又被罰錢可是如果他全部要達標可能有一個成本還有他量能上都會有問題所以我說我們現在禁用這廚餘這個技術真的是很好所以就像部長講這個有機營養液真的要好好規劃一下不然"},{"start":12603.329,"end":12618.041,"text":"明明是可以用的東西本來加熱以後就可以養豬結果現在變成汙水處理成本又提高然後汙水量能又不夠如果量能要夠可能它的濃度又達標超過它的標準又會被罰款"},{"start":12619.102,"end":12647.379,"text":"所以這部分是不是應該我們跨部份來研議一下對對我們現在正在處理這個事情也跟委員報告因為最近天氣冷喔那個火鍋或羊肉爐等等那個油脂特別高所以那個水汙染處理的也告訴我說那個都是一層油啊都是我們大家吃的這個油啦其實那個油我覺得都可以再回收再處理的所以現在的就是法規上面的認定還有大家的協商還有一些狀況所以我們現在正在努力希望可以解決這個問題"},{"start":12648.56,"end":12664.772,"text":"所以看起來這個業者讓我們感覺到廚藝你看它可以百分之百的利用所以基本上它不是廢棄物那只是說我們如果用技術去把它變成有用的東西那現在我們因為雖然說還有一年2027才說"},{"start":12668.274,"end":12687.636,"text":"不用廚餘養豬可是我發現這個這個政策一宣布之後很多地方政府也在反映其實現在很多養豬業者完全都不收了很多的業者民眾都說現在的廚餘業者以前都會去他們那邊收現在完全開始都不收所以變成"},{"start":12688.297,"end":12706.301,"text":"他可能知道說往後都不收可能他本來要買珍珠這些設備現在他都不買啦因為他知道再過一年一年多都不能使用所以其實現在除於地方業者就已經沒有在收了不知道部長知不知道這個情形知道很清楚所以現在大概"},{"start":12707.362,"end":12726.522,"text":"跟這個各個縣市環保局、農業局申請這個可以持續徵組的監控的大概已經有100多家了所以基本上我們預估可能會有大概將近一半左右會可能會退場因為農業部給他們變成飼料養豬的這個福利還蠻好的所以基本上未來這個慢慢的確會變少"},{"start":12727.523,"end":12748.668,"text":"那這段時間這個交接轉換轉型的這個期間就需要大家來努力啦那我們其實一直不斷的在跟協助地方縣市環保局一直在協調這個事情因為有些可能這個團散或是餐廳它無法去去化就會產生一些壓力那目前我們真的在解決這個事所以廚藝的問題可能不是到2027再處理現在就要面對"},{"start":12751.049,"end":12770.047,"text":"但是也跟委員報告其實現在到年底之前我們是有補助費用的然後到了明年之後就會因為1月1號開始可以這個處於養豬嘛那還有一年的時間所以我認為壓力會是在明年的年底的時候這個大轉型那個會是另外一波那我們現在就要來準備未來的事情了"},{"start":12770.287,"end":12774.993,"text":"好希望我們農業部環境部經濟部那部長院是屬於這個中央儲管機關這個部分應該趕快跨部會跟我們研議來解決這個問題好謝謝那還有針對我們現在促進資源循環"},{"start":12785.948,"end":12810.2,"text":"那我們促進資源循環在2024年8月30號我們有成立8加N資源循環的產業聯盟那現在已經滿一年多了那部長那時候你有說產值在2030年的時候要達到3700億元那現在我們環境部在這一部分我們到底是屬於被動還是主動去輔導這個產業鏈的成立的角色"},{"start":12812.561,"end":12823.604,"text":"包委員我們是主動的因為其實剛剛那時候是他們統計的數字那我們最近用德國的方法來算我們台灣的循環經濟現在是去年是1688億循環經濟那我們只佔了我們選擇幾個重點能夠來合作現在大概有10個聯盟了吧我們請署長來說明一下"},{"start":12831.994,"end":12846.392,"text":"好那我們現在在各個聯盟呢分別就主題來這個做一些交換意見包括說法規或者說他們有些在這個循環產品的銷售那一起來共同討論那如果他有些資金問題我們有一個綠辦有一個資金的一個支持"},{"start":12850.217,"end":12867.97,"text":"所以這個署長應該知道因為我們有共同去參加他們資源回收全國這個大會他們業者也都非常關心我們環境部現在到底針對這個期程然後指標到底要做到什麼程度我們是不是將來是不是一樣要推動資源循環促進法"},{"start":12869.167,"end":12884.228,"text":"是是那資訊權推動法對我們要促進這些產業的發展是非常重要的所以希望能夠得到那個大運的支持對因為這部分我們回收產業其實我們有個很關鍵的就是貴金屬資源"},{"start":12885.249,"end":12911.857,"text":"那很多的民間業者我覺得我們環境部應該要推動請他們加入因為他們應該是將來我們關鍵的貴金屬的國家隊那我們針對這部分我希望部長能夠讓明確讓我們知道我們要如何推動民間產業成為8加N產業聯盟的成員那如何讓我們這部分環境部針對未來這個規劃"},{"start":12914.218,"end":12938.666,"text":"可不可以明確的讓我們知道可不可以提供這些計畫讓我們知道好委員說的承辦窗口沒有問題我們其實有一個其實這個是整個循環署在推動的事那你剛才說到的這個例如說稀有貴金屬或是重金屬那個貴金屬的一個回收也是我們的主力的要點我們現在就在密集的在跟一些相關的業者在討論當中那我必須說我們現在是先找幾個"},{"start":12939.486,"end":12966.243,"text":"很重要的最重要的這個錫櫃金屬貴氣金屬叫貴氣金屬在討論當中那未來我們會再更開放的來更多人來參與因為這裡面的水很深我們會一個一個來掌握這個狀況對因為現在業者認為說針對廢棄物回收有明確的法令去處理你看針對資源回收他們連這個窗口他們都搞不清楚然後這個法令上好像也不是很明確"},{"start":12967.023,"end":12986.369,"text":"所以是不是可以盡快針對我們資源回收的部分而且這對我們台灣喔回收這個貴金屬我覺得也非常的重要所以這部分應該是不是要好好的盡快來規劃是不是有明確的計畫可以提供給我們辦公室好沒有問題謝謝委員好那針對今天我們有"},{"start":12987.809,"end":13004.776,"text":"針對我們垃圾掩埋的部分那我想請問一下喔那部長之前我們有去桃園市考察喔我了解一下這個進度啦我們當初有去考察陽梅的原本垃圾掩埋場還有我們觀音寶藏的"},{"start":13005.416,"end":13016.379,"text":"垃圾掩埋場那他都是戰志嘛是那部長也有講說明年底就會退場那是不是這個部分是不是確定可以如期進行來解決我們地方垃圾掩埋場的問題報告委員桃園的部分他們很積極在面對我也給他們很大的肯定那因為"},{"start":13024.862,"end":13037.636,"text":"那次我們去的時候里長在那邊我也拉著里長的手明年我們一起去看把那個至少沒有裸露的情況我們目前掌握的進度是正如期會完工那也希望明年年底的時候我們這個時候帶那個里長去見證我們一起來見證"},{"start":13040.865,"end":13064.075,"text":"那明年底退場是整個覆蓋完成覆蓋完成然後那當然了桃園的環保局是更積極的我們我們的標準第一個打包第二個是覆土那他們是可能會更積極來做處理那這個還是要看他們最後的結果但是至少在附近絕對不會有那種聞到味道這種蒼蠅一大堆的問題應該會顯著的地方民眾"},{"start":13066.876,"end":13094.075,"text":"還是希望都能夠能夠拿去焚化移除焚化處理掉對但是因為桃園的量還是有一點點緊張桃園的量還是因為桃園的那個那兩個焚化爐他其實剛好平衡而已那他還有事業廢棄物還是有點不大夠所以基本上呢如果說桃園未來還可以更積極的SRF可能等發展的更完整我希望速度可以更快好那希望針對這部分"},{"start":13095.836,"end":13124.735,"text":"部長也答應說明年底一定要退場所以最基本的部分還是要把它完成對對對我們至少要把附近的居民的生活品質可以可以變好這是我們所要的目標對啊不然你一些惡臭啊蒼蠅啊什麼完全非常嚴重影響他們的生活是是是好這部分那部長你要講明年底一定都對明年底也要請委員我們一起再去考察應該可以恢復原狀讓里長開心一點希望明年底我們是去驗收成果是是是好謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":13128.938,"end":13129.699,"text":"主席好我們一樣請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":13147.595,"end":13156.499,"text":"邱委員好部長好我看你們今天的書面報告到今年10月底全國的戰資產從112年的84萬噸下降為65.8萬噸那也就是說已經處理了23.2萬噸那大概27%啦那我想問一下就是說你明年年底的這個承諾有沒有辦法完成"},{"start":13171.987,"end":13188.826,"text":"目前我們還是照原來的承諾往上走雖然原來應該更積極是四十一萬噸但是因為台南還有包含的廚餘多了大概快二十萬噸所以我們 這是六四三欸這是六四三 也蠻長的 露天裸露你們是怎麼樣 就是打包它"},{"start":13189.526,"end":13204.878,"text":"第一個是打包第二個是這個把它覆土掩埋覆土等於是活化再活化再利用基本上如果未來這個焚化爐那個量能夠的話還是希望他可以把它去化掉啦但是這個你要打包你要放到什麼時候這個"},{"start":13206.059,"end":13222.541,"text":"如果打包的話如果焚化爐啟動的話因為未來大概兩三年後這個焚化爐應該有一些餘裕那就可以來做焚化的處理所以現在是控管住了這個狀況現在還有33個露天的你明年能完成應該是沒有問題"},{"start":13223.542,"end":13238.632,"text":"好 那如果我們是希望就是說你們說到做到那當然我也希望說這個你打包之後也不能說把它丟在那邊就不管了那政府應該有一個具體的一個做法那你期待是怎麼樣"},{"start":13240.032,"end":13261.046,"text":"例如說以台南來說的話台南當時也是含在裡面嗎是是是因為他們的這個晨曦的掩埋場量還蠻大的然後他的焚化爐未來幾個月應該有機會會新的可以啟動那如果舊的還繼續留著的話應該有辦法助益於去化他的這個不會越處理越多啦不會不會不會"},{"start":13261.986,"end":13286.455,"text":"那我再問一下就是在高雄那個亂到垃圾的案發生很多青鳥在吹上面說至少高雄是有出面處理其他縣市暫制垃圾一直都沒有處理把亂到垃圾跟垃圾場裡的暫制垃圾混淆在一起那不小心就把這個情況怪到我們環境部頭上去那我替你很抱歉但是我看到今天的報告說還有剩下60.8萬噸"},{"start":13288.596,"end":13303.855,"text":"那都集中在新竹台南及南投三個縣市現在是哪邊最多應該是台南還有新竹台南台南是因為這個11月底又暴增17萬噸是風災之後的垃圾嗎是風災的垃圾有沒有包含這個烏蘇林戰志場的這個垃圾場"},{"start":13308.421,"end":13337.081,"text":"沒有包括所以烏樹林就不含在這裡面了對對對那個我們是算是這個露天裸露的那個戰事場沒有算在裡面因為那個本來就未來這幾個月就會去化完成那我看到你們有去那個什麼日本考察這個經驗制定大型災害廢棄物戰事場的防災安全指引那消防安全管理原則分區堆放及進出場管理原則提供地方依循請問你提供給地方了沒有"},{"start":13337.401,"end":13355.052,"text":"還沒有因為我們還在研議因為日本是很理想但是在台灣我們的災後的量因為日本其實從發生災害你災害發生的時候你家裡面的器具各方面都要做好分類我們是沒有在分類的所以等於是整個就變成大垃圾出去"},{"start":13355.532,"end":13367.872,"text":"那你展示的時候不會順便做一次分類嗎很困難現實例如說以花蓮花蓮那個光復香其實那個整個就一起出來了全部混在一起你沒有辦法分類的那"},{"start":13369.438,"end":13397.521,"text":"那到後面要怎麼處理所以基本上這樣就是變成一個很大的困難所以我們現在一直在觀察說很大困難還是要有個辦法對 基本上那個當然先進國家有一些好的做法我們會來做參考啦因為我們通常遇到災害的時候基本上所有垃圾所有東西就混在一起了那當然就造成台南那個事件還是要引以為禁啦因為這個萬一發生火災這個真是後果不堪設想我希望環境部盡快來妥善處理"},{"start":13398.562,"end":13421.576,"text":"那另外全國失業廢棄物處理及營建產出物的管理那我們今年我們台灣一直再度爆發這個垃圾大戰那主要就是當時我們蔡英文總統改變失業廢棄物的處理政策導致每年有高達數百萬噸的失業廢棄物進到一般的焚化爐排擠到一般家庭垃圾的妥善處理率"},{"start":13422.236,"end":13430.06,"text":"那我看經濟部的報告十個園區十七處環保用地請問目前該開辦事業廢棄物專門處理這個設施進度到哪裡這是不是請展發書"},{"start":13440.091,"end":13457.325,"text":"目前的這個17處的環保用地現在只剩下有兩處現在正在待釋出但是這兩個部分的話剛好環境部限時有在推動這個氣候科技的這個環保計畫我們這兩處的話大概是預備做這兩個計畫的使用那其他的呢"},{"start":13463.075,"end":13469.488,"text":"其他部分目前都已經有在做這個環保用地的使用已經開始使用了那什麼時候可以完全落實啊"},{"start":13470.632,"end":13492.33,"text":"完全落實我們現在就是我剛剛講這17個裡面有15個現在都已經落實他們這個用途的使用了他們的就是就地處理原則都一樣嗎每個都一樣對都是就地來處理依據那個費金華的那另外我們進一步成立的北中南觀音張濱還有大發展這個大發產業園區三個有害事業廢棄物處理的示範場目前的運作狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":13505.748,"end":13525.553,"text":"北中南就是我們在那個桃園張濱跟高雄的三個那個有害事業費目前都是順利運作當中那年處理量是多少年處理量會依照當那個有害事業費去入的量每年會有變化所以他的量是無限擴大的"},{"start":13526.112,"end":13546.617,"text":"沒有 他還是有一個上限啦 比如說我們的那個南區的處理量能 大概這三區啦 能不能滿足現在的問題現在所有廢棄物處理的這個問題目前是沒有問題的 處理都夠就對了已經開始做了嘛好 那接下來我想"},{"start":13548.217,"end":13575.175,"text":"這個越來越多的糧田餘溫山谷像得了癌症一步一步死去那危害到臺灣的農業與環境那兇手其實就是我們營建工程產生的這個廢棄物與剩餘土石方四處濫盜像美濃天坑倒採完砂石就被偷埋營建廢棄物與土石混合物這當中最主要的破口其實我想中央有同一個規範各縣市的做法不一樣才會導致輕易業者和非法車隊土資廠業者"},{"start":13577.777,"end":13599.777,"text":"串成這個三角的這個犯罪鏈那部長認為這個問題出在哪裡出在很多的面向例如說我們的去化量不夠然後第二個是過去的管理這個其實從台灣幾十年來不是都有裝GPS嗎沒有土石方的部分沒有土石方沒有然後那我們破獲的幾個案例都是有一些未來會裝嗎"},{"start":13601.178,"end":13619.349,"text":"會來全面要裝然後另外一個智慧圍籬然後把它加強監管以後抓到會更容易被抓到你擔不擔心他們裝了這個GPS然後到土資場落場一拳然後就跑掉包委員我們以後會連結警政單位的CCTV所以這個部分不會有這個問題"},{"start":13620.931,"end":13634.446,"text":"對這個還是要去防止啦那我也看到其實有很多問題就是說有一些房子就是建商他在蓋房蓋大樓的時候那一些土其實是乾淨的土啦那很多現在也其實全台灣都沒地方去啊是這個怎麼辦"},{"start":13635.567,"end":13661.065,"text":"未來我們會鼓勵限地能不能能夠做好一些分類因為它就是沒有分類才變得廢棄因為有時候你說完全沒有垃圾百分之百是好像不太可能那可能有一些參雜到你們有沒有一個比例的一個原則有的但是我們是希望因為像這個這個機關署他們現在舊的大樓拆掉其實在限地就分類的很好然後就不是說新建的新建的"},{"start":13661.485,"end":13685.021,"text":"新建的部分我們當然現在沒有辦法還沒有一個規範出來他只是挖地下室而已啊對啊但是他撈起來可能有一些垃圾或者是有一些那個磚塊啊什麼的是那個都有一定的分類的一個標準例如說磚塊是磚塊R多少類D什麼類等於是大概都有那當然我們是希望以後源頭可以分類得更好但現在這個還是沒地方去啊"},{"start":13685.661,"end":13705.641,"text":"基本上當然現在的確是有問題尤其是我們鄉下很多農民他會其實有一些他的農地他需要改良或者是這個時候就可以給他們利用嘛對不對那這個是地方政府的管轄基本上這個是地方政府要管轄他決定就可以了那因為這個管理是地方政府但是很多地方政府他其實"},{"start":13706.642,"end":13728.69,"text":"並沒有特別去做一些平台所以以後的這個土資平台在各地方政府我們特別有找了這個幾個自己去化量能不夠的地方要先成立一個平台所以我們都談好了那就是明年的預算然後我們這個預計是明年的預算就可以來推動做這個事情我們照今年的辦法都已經弄好了都寫掉好了就是明年1月1號開動"},{"start":13732.203,"end":13754.298,"text":"因為我看到這其實很多問題啦就是還有一些土地廠它也在賣證明的問題所以這個已經不是應該已經是公開的一個訊息所以我覺得環境部應該把這個整個會碰到的問題做一個整體的一個規範讓各縣市政府好遵循這樣可以嗎"},{"start":13754.798,"end":13769.44,"text":"可以 也請委員幫忙因為這個明年我們各縣市都談好了他們要成立一個土資的聯合的一個辦公室都副市長來宰主持那也請委員多幫我們忙因為這個明年的新增的預算好 可是你們要我們立法院通知要趕快給我們啊"},{"start":13771.055,"end":13794.803,"text":"我們才可以幫你們審預算啊我也要趕快幫我們審啊你沒有編我怎麼審我們要的都沒編啊我們已經給了啊給在哪裡啊已經給到立法院了送到立法院錢沒給該給的錢沒給這不是你責任來的你不要腳步進來啦是是是還有最後這個除以禁止養豬"},{"start":13796.343,"end":13823.368,"text":"那我看到你剛剛聽我也聽到剛剛有講就是說你兩年後要完全的禁止嘛對嘛一年後一年後一年後那現在還是可以用就對了現在還可以用但是加護的不能用我苗栗縣有一場他是一個年輕人他自己在做了一個我們叫做這個真主中心共同真主對那他當初是響應政府的政策那我們環境部這邊如果進的時候他怎麼辦"},{"start":13824.509,"end":13851.667,"text":"第一個這個問題我也跟農業部討論過基本上按照現有的法規是不可以但是其實以農業部來說的話他對於植物性的殘渣這個事業的持續是沒有盡的所以他未來我覺得他可以轉型就跟可能現在的狀況不一樣這個政府能夠介入因為他當初也是配合政府的政策然後一個年輕人創業其實不容易然後他投資其實也"},{"start":13852.407,"end":13853.328,"text":"謝謝邱振軍委員發言接下來請謝龍介委員發言"},{"start":13888.926,"end":13905.874,"text":"主席我請保長請彭部長委員好保長你好我請教你,你不知道多少年了嗎?十年前你訪問老總統,專訪你跟他說你跟蔣介石到底有什麼關係?有有嗎?有啊他跟你說什麼?"},{"start":13914.417,"end":13931.73,"text":"我沒記啊你沒記啊他跟你說我吃兩塊非敵非友啊非敵非友那個訪問我有看見所以我在議會跟他問我說我們兩個這麼好你怎麼會說我們兩個非敵非友我就說非敵即是友非友即是敵所以起碼我們兩個是不是亦敵亦友"},{"start":13944.517,"end":13952.8,"text":"他都不敢給我贏啦 潘晟贏啦對不對 同時我們笑眉眉 去到你那裡就不敢變成非敵非友我想你看他這麼好 你要了解他對著這個環境聽取的這種心情"},{"start":13965.117,"end":13973.824,"text":"包括天坑也好 包括剛才我不知道說區議員在說是苗栗對這塊石頭的土豐沒有關係嗎 不應該是這樣你說你有變一條巫繩 這塊石本來就是土豐的主軟 這叫土頭"},{"start":13985.41,"end":14004.549,"text":"只要他阿伯有企圖 叫做土匪土頭跟土匪綜合 應該各縣市都有這個健管單位都有這個申請 也都有管理萬一今天沒有土匪 你把他收回的時候他會有一個堆置場 包括各縣市有一些資源回收場"},{"start":14006.246,"end":14021.475,"text":"沒有那樣的管理也沒有那樣的統合為什麼你們環境部一直沒有去做這個統合這是不對的國管局如果可以看要做統合今天市安專業會有這麼多違規的事情會發生土地噴射土汽土風土汽土酒甚至這些人在出發的時候你環境部"},{"start":14036.474,"end":14048.378,"text":"是不是要建議交通部在這個違規啦我告訴你所有 我們剛才講這麼多違規包括以前你去台南看的對峙 戰車場那些東西都需要卡車來運輸 你知道嗎沒有卡車他們就拖不走這個卡車基本上都三五檔基本上都有GPS啦車行"},{"start":14067.421,"end":14073.506,"text":"去到檢測官啊他要請我的請我是去宰而已啊跟我有關的啊如果我是請你宰土豐結果 告別啊是宰本事宰廢棄物去到不應該棄的所在你們是不是要看保肥協調解像這種就應該跟他吊牌啊因為只有吊牌他們才會怕"},{"start":14097.475,"end":14103.717,"text":"只有把他的牌調起來 他沒有偽姓的工具那書記他就不敢換這個法律那書記不想用我的牌 我也不想用客家的牌去陪你拚啊你很敢犯科技賠 你賺大錢 我給你賺一個運輸而已運輸是我去加油 我應該做 我也合理的理順來做而已我是跟你代工的 但是你知不知道檢測官過去這些案件都怎麼破案的"},{"start":14129.693,"end":14133.495,"text":"普通我告訴你 都是問書記比較問到真相的書記都知道真相 所有插隊的書記 他們都知道真相所以這個管理 你要落實的管理 你自己坐在那裏整天要怎麼管 鹽果腐出狗餐啦 我不騙你 但是對症下藥"},{"start":14152.014,"end":14161.236,"text":"只要從頭到尾把它鎖住 臉頰把它頂住我跟你說 它不可以亂打 它不可以亂打你像你剛才說的 套過GPS要抓你很簡單的檢測官破案是這樣來的所以只要這裡結合起來 我看違規軟斗的人 相隔這個可以減80%以上你知不知道"},{"start":14177.202,"end":14205.271,"text":"報告委員我們除了GPS的外所有的CCTV然後都會弄然後另外一個呢是現在很多的狀況是抓到司機可是發不了錢因為都脫產了或是指的斷到哪裡不是嘛 我跟你說的意思就是你要把他吊牌車要吊牌 駕駛要吊牌就像我們現在在高速公路超速我們你看他們的助力我問問 再來都去用吊牌超速的喔這樣他就會怕了民間也很多人去用吊牌喔"},{"start":14206.288,"end":14207.87,"text":"還要吊腳喔我告訴你在亂世要用擋電因為你的環保現在是亂世之中還有這個噴的事情很嚴重噴現在都沒辦法去化我剛才有跟擔保長說"},{"start":14223.397,"end":14242.623,"text":"這甘肝胃 趕快把它噴可以化作滴的治療他說他一個月前已經去日本看了我有要求他在一個月內 提出甘肝胃臭泡的原理報告台灣要怎麼可以把這個噴 再度化肥 違法雖然新聞會提供技術"},{"start":14243.723,"end":14256.831,"text":"但是 它可以真的化作滴的治療那麼這是你會怕的 我跟你說 噴現在國管局只有營養額參加 一個沒要修我看你們補助地方的這個噴就去做堆備了你們沒有就失誤了 沒錯嗎"},{"start":14266.138,"end":14274.487,"text":"後悔後悔衝啊 包括婚娶啊都沒有合標準啊做一個報告給你們協商說有啦你們補助者我們就怎樣都在跟你騙你知道嗎都在跟你騙 我現在跟你說這樣就是有禁錮"},{"start":14279.199,"end":14294.127,"text":"你拿給我,我來看真的嗎?你拿給我國管局,你補助他去做堆肥補助他那麼多錢去買機械、分水機、廖澳去發工空氣沒處理,炒魚或是三星那些東西"},{"start":14298.92,"end":14311.486,"text":"不要騙我啦 都在騙你的啦你問他 什麼就知道了對不對 你不知道喔我告訴你 我比較告訴你委員給我 我們請同仁來查 沒問題你不然就擠進去 放在下面就在那裡罵嘛會啦 會啦那委員你就給我還有喔 那次你去看那個對市場的火燒我告訴你喔台南市的消防就中了4隻啦"},{"start":14329.335,"end":14339.128,"text":"他在第一時間就給環保局建議大型的機構一定要告他我靠我大炮他沒有這樣做我們在那裡都很清楚現在去退休的這裡也沒有意義"},{"start":14341.24,"end":14353.227,"text":"但是要怎麼挽救?例如說你要全台灣做一個大型的佔地場要怎麼分類、要怎麼企劃拼命未來再度發生這種災難空氣汙染非常嚴重所以在這裡跟你說"},{"start":14362.847,"end":14388.761,"text":"以台南市這個個人 重新做一個檢討是 你提出你現在的計畫還沒出來這要時間因為我們也要跟各縣市環保局也要來溝通然後我們自己也要提出一個也要找專家來討論這個要多久的時間我們預計是二月底二月底會對外公佈現在其實我們內部有一些初步的這個建議方案但是我覺得還可以更好一點我是感覺說你如果在外地要公佈你這裡外地先分析"},{"start":14392.683,"end":14400.108,"text":"粗暴的,你們的價位啦,我可以給你提供很多意見,我有便宜謝謝謝謝謝龍介委員發言,接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席,我們請部長有請彭部長"},{"start":14425.114,"end":14444.202,"text":"我想請教就是說我們現在除於禁止養豬那有一個緩衝期差不多緩衝一年的時間我也看到就是說像彰化縣他們就建議就是說因為就只有一年的時間所以就建議就是說你們現在有補助"},{"start":14444.822,"end":14472.112,"text":"就是珍珠的這個設備那目前彰化縣他申請的是沒有沒有租場沒有養豬場申請那我想請教就是說像這樣子的話我們當然希望就是說這個非洲豬瘟不能也不可以再次來因為這個真的影響的產業真的非常的大兩千億的這樣的一個產業那我想請教就是說"},{"start":14473.132,"end":14493.014,"text":"部長就是說我們現在目前遇到了一些困難就是說學校學校你應該也看到這幾天學校這個因為廚餘那營養午餐的廚餘那老師彰化這邊老師或者校長都要押這個廚餘車到固定的點"},{"start":14494.035,"end":14523.261,"text":"那也引起學校老師的這個反彈那我想請教就是說因為我們從這個非洲豬瘟發生10月份到現在其實我在這個質詢台上面也因為這個一直提到這個廚餘的這個問題也提到了四五次那我想請教就是說地方跟中央這邊應該要有一些合作的關係那你如果說請這些這個教職這些老師或者是校長要去押"},{"start":14524.701,"end":14540.786,"text":"這個廚餘車到固定的點或者是壓到這個垃圾場其實我覺得這都不應該那所以部長你看到這樣的一個這個消息之後那你有跟地方政府有什麼樣的希望說可以可以再怎樣的去處理這樣子營養午餐的這個廚餘的問題嗎"},{"start":14546.087,"end":14565.898,"text":"謝謝委員因為其實彰化我們上禮拜四跟彰化各縣市都有開會那彰化環保局大概是目前整體是沒問題但是他們那個老是送的部分他們很快就做一些修正那現在彰化有一個情況是因為養豬的縣府其實也主動說不要不要都不要"},{"start":14567.319,"end":14583.784,"text":"所以基本上我所知道的環保局有協助他們說原來的養豬的清運業者轉型成清除業來解決短暫的銜接的一個問題所以他們正在做這個事情但是這個可能還有一點點時間我們希望越短越好"},{"start":14584.264,"end":14601.637,"text":"是好那其實我是覺得說金錢要快一點啦要不然這個廚餘的問題確實是一個很大壓力啦真的是很大的壓力再來就是說如果現在成本都提高了這個清運的這個成本都提高了那"},{"start":14602.057,"end":14616.608,"text":"南寶就是說未來會亂到這個有可能發生可能就是會亂到到那個深山那個那個山谷底下我之前在這個質詢台上面也有特別提到就是說有一些廢棄物就是被亂到在"},{"start":14617.549,"end":14632.858,"text":"那個深山裡面的山谷就直接倒下去那如果現在廚餘的這個清運的成本又提高的話難保未來這個廚餘也是會被亂倒所以我希望就是說環境部跟地方政府針對這部分應該要有一個"},{"start":14634.079,"end":14653.653,"text":"更明確的一個方式廚餘的一個處理方式那這個不要不要再有第二次的對環境的第二次的一個傷害也跟委員報告我在很多次我大概有三次的場合都拜託縣市首長還有六都的首長一定要嚴防這個亂到的問題因為這個執行是他們在執行那這個他們也都說沒問題他們會加緊來處理那當然啦我是覺得"},{"start":14660.197,"end":14675.439,"text":"我們如果照過去因為我們原來每年這個平均是一天是2100噸那現在是因為這個疫情的關係除疫情等於降到1700表示我們有進步的空間所以如果說我們源頭如果真的在落實減量甚至我們的這個團散"},{"start":14676.821,"end":14705.346,"text":"是不是可以做得更好吃讓小朋友吃光光不要三成都變成廚餘變成去餵豬變成我們去化的難題這個都是我們可能在源頭管理就可以做的地方這個部分我們近期也會提出說更強力的或是更積極的這個食食或食農教育那這個是跨部會我們會來做那也希望委員跟我們一些建議這個部長你剛剛講到重點就是營養午餐很多學生會覺得說營養午餐不好吃"},{"start":14706.666,"end":14731.181,"text":"營養可是不好吃所以差不多三成左右就變成廚餘所以我覺得剛剛部長提到就是說應該也要跨部會去協助是不是能夠讓營養午餐更好吃當然好吃也要兼顧營養那今天很可惜就是教育部沒有派人來所以我希望說未來這個部分應該我覺得如果說可以讓營養午餐更美味的話"},{"start":14732.282,"end":14758.778,"text":"其實我覺得這個廚餘應該可以減少或者是能夠更精準的怎麼去計算每個學生他的量是多少讓廚餘能夠減少我覺得這個應該可以更仔細的去計算我覺得最重要是讓營養午餐變好吃其實我們看到日本有一部電影它就是讓廚師把營養午餐變好吃"},{"start":14761.8,"end":14771.626,"text":"我覺得這個真的是跨部會要去討論的一件事情其實如果可以把源頭減量我覺得多多少少對我們廚餘的區劃確實是有很大的幫助因為我也問了很多的"},{"start":14777.669,"end":14800.654,"text":"學校特別是中小學那他們告訴我說很難因為要營養就不好吃要好吃就不營養但是我有問到一些學校他的廚餘量很少的所以我們現在會把好的案例讓大家都知道因為這個事情發生其實在10月11月的時候我都有打電話給鄭部長請教育部預作準備"},{"start":14803.155,"end":14820.826,"text":"那我們未來呢也會跟那個教育部來討論說如何解決這個問題因為廚餘在台例如說以我上禮拜去桃園桃園一天的這個團扇就40噸全國大概300噸這個量實在太大所以我就提醒教育部一定要來解決這個問題不然的話他以後就要編經費去處理廚餘的問題"},{"start":14823.348,"end":14838.042,"text":"那部長我想請教因為今天就教育部沒人來我再請教就是說其實這個學校的這個團善業者他們原本用這個餐車把這個營養午餐載到學校那現在目前的狀況是他們可能租不到這個"},{"start":14839.683,"end":14859.13,"text":"除雨車處理除雨的這個車子嗎所以有的就直接用這個餐車又再除雨再到這個固定的點那像這樣子的話其實會有一個衛生的這個問題就我覺得這個應該也是環境部跟地方政府大家要再去討論的這個餐車不應該再去再除雨"},{"start":14860.33,"end":14879.742,"text":"我覺得這個會有一個衛生安全的這個問題我覺得這一點要再去考慮一下另外我想請教就是說環境部目前就是提供這個廚餘焚化補貼聽說是只有到今年年底到年底那未來呢"},{"start":14880.543,"end":14908.743,"text":"未來的話其實也不知道會不會我們如果要真的要廚餘減量要其實廚餘跟我們一般餐廳的垃圾都是一樣他要處理的費用的我認為我們不能夠補貼這個是一個道義跟責任這個造成食物浪費這是每個人的責任本來就應該有價的所以但是這個大家不習慣如何做得更好我們目前也在討論做這個事情要應該可能要加大讓大家知道體會的一個力道"},{"start":14909.904,"end":14913.99,"text":"所以我覺得這個如果只有補貼到今年的話那明年"},{"start":14917.449,"end":14944.643,"text":"我覺得會是一個很大的問題基本上家戶沒有受影響因為家戶都是清潔隊在收的沒有影響主要是餐廳餐廳跟團善那這個部分呢因為他們現在還是可以未租所以目前未來明年沒有問題但是可能後年就是另外一個壓力可是張化你像這個真主的這個部分就是幾乎沒有跟你們申請就是真主的那個設備嘛的補助嘛"},{"start":14945.083,"end":14960.692,"text":"那像這樣子的話彰化就進廚餘養豬了對那所以這個就是會有一個問題對等於是彰化的餐廳業者他可能是提早會遇到這個這個可能的這個廚餘量他就必須要努力的減少不然的話會變成他的一個成本"},{"start":14962.413,"end":14976.124,"text":"對 所以我覺得說未來這個廚餘 我覺得很難實施就頭痛的事情啦再就是說廚餘處理的價格會往上提嘛那可能第一個會壓縮到整個營養午餐的這個費用"},{"start":14978.326,"end":15003.007,"text":"也跟委員報告目前廚餘的這個處理大概是一頓大概可能是3000塊到5000塊左右有的便宜一點如果我們未來如果各種的新的方式可以起來的話希望可以往下降但是也因為有這樣的這個價格存在也讓我們這個所謂的廚餘的處理的業者會越來越多所以我們是這樣在看這個問題但是我必須說大家一開始現在這個時間要轉型期間有一點不能適應"},{"start":15004.388,"end":15028.386,"text":"那部長再來就是說我們廚餘怎麼讓它變成有價值的就是剛剛委員有提到就是說把它轉成飼料我覺得這個也是一個方式啦另外就是說我們之前在委員會的時候我有帶各位去看這個黑水盲那彰化目前碰到一個問題就是黑水盲這個處理的地方很臭所以"},{"start":15029.207,"end":15055.174,"text":"民眾抗議連續在上禮拜跟上上禮拜就附近的居民就抗議其中就包括我們上一次委員會有去看的其中一場就是這個狀況所以我覺得說未來如果用黑水盲來處理廚餘的話尤其是現在可能原本處理這個廚餘的量沒有那麼多那現在可能就因為禁止養豬了所以他們處理的量更多那這個中間可能"},{"start":15055.914,"end":15067.519,"text":"沒有處理好臭味就亂飄四億嘛所以變成說住在附近的居民就受不了然後連續有兩場就是在這個黑水盲的這個場連續有兩場一場在河美地區一場在鹿港"},{"start":15071.742,"end":15100.281,"text":"就是鹿港和美那個地方然後另外一場在北斗那邊所以就是民眾抗議所以我覺得說針對這部分我們也希望未來就是說不論是做成堆肥或做成飼料或者是用黑水芒來處理廚藥我覺得一方面就是不要再造成環境的二度傷害那也不要讓民眾覺得說這個就是一個閒物設施那我就不希望他就設在我家旁邊我覺得這部分應該我們應該也要好好再去"},{"start":15101.541,"end":15119.969,"text":"輔導一下我們原本覺得說這個是處理廚餘很好的一個方式可是你在前端廚餘回收回來之後這個還是會有發酵會收水的那個味道所以如果前面沒有處理好的話會造成居民附近居民"},{"start":15121.57,"end":15139.92,"text":"我整天就是聞到那個收水的那個味道所以我覺得說部長針對這部分我們希望這個中央就是環境部這邊是不是可以更加積極如果說他今天是用這個黑水盲來處理廚餘的話是不是在前端的部分這個意味我覺得應該也要處理"},{"start":15141.121,"end":15169.931,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為這個異位的處理其實我也看過一些黑水盲的業者其實沒有什麼味道的所以那個業者是不是可能經驗上面或各方面那我們再去了解看是不是可以給他們一些建議的協助這個我們可以來做因為這個東西其實黑水盲其實各種任何一種它可能都會有一點點味道出來但是如何去把那個異位對附近居民的不舒適感降低我認為這個時候我們可以來做一些協助"},{"start":15170.791,"end":15191.451,"text":"如果可以再把這個異位降低或者是幾乎沒有異位的話其實我覺得這個是一個很好的方式就是說它處理完之後它的那個黑水盲的糞便或什麼還可以當成肥料我覺得這是一個非常好的方式可是你在前端如果沒有處理好的話這真的是一個讓大家很羨慕的一個地方那再拜託部長好 謝謝我們來努力 謝謝"},{"start":15200.825,"end":15206.791,"text":"謝謝黃秀芳委員發言接下來請鄭振權委員鄭振權委員不在接著我們請陳瑩委員發言麻煩請環境部部長請彭部長"},{"start":15225.405,"end":15248.411,"text":"蔣委員好部長好那今天召委特別安排這個全台垃圾山危機和這個事業廢棄物去化的這個專題報告那我看了其實今天與會的列席的各個部會也都很認真的在準備資料想盡辦法不管字體大小都想盡辦法擠出一點內容出來那"},{"start":15251.686,"end":15265.171,"text":"就是說但是這其中我特別關注到內政部的這個報告那當然國土署的部分有關注到這個土方的管理但是我想"},{"start":15267.29,"end":15288.121,"text":"整個內政部更應該關注到的就是說既然我們今天講的是全台垃圾山這個危機我們首先會遇到危機就是最近很多這個大火的問題這個垃圾山起火的問題嘛所以這個消防啊我覺得內政部完全沒有去提到這個講到這個消防的問題我很驚訝啊所以"},{"start":15292.557,"end":15313.66,"text":"我也特別在這裡點出就是說在我們大家共同在面臨這個垃圾山危機的同時那消防的部分可能要請內政部回去要特別留意那當然這個也不是內政部就自己就可以處理這還是要環境部來協助我就做這樣的提醒"},{"start":15314.901,"end":15343.423,"text":"我也跟你報告因為這個因為我們我去台南的時候其實就已經請消防署長跟我一直密切的聯繫我們到底可不可以更快的解決那當然啦因為消防署長以前在台中也救過這個野脈場的大火所以他很有經驗然後我也詢問了各種專家這種野脈場的火災怎麼去做處理都是很老的步驟啦是沒關係我們後續會討論到我想我就做這樣子的提醒那在正部可以請回"},{"start":15345.521,"end":15367.481,"text":"另外我來替大家問個問題就是說因為目前我們廚餘已經就是不給豬吃了那好像很多人都會有這樣的想法就是說那已經不給豬吃了那我們譬如說便當或家裡的剩菜剩飯我們還需要再做分類嗎"},{"start":15370.496,"end":15395.603,"text":"當然現在是非常時期一開始的階段量能還沒有起來那我知道各個縣市以台北市來說的話他家戶廚餘還是去做堆肥的所以他其實還是要分類那每個縣市狀況有一點點不一樣像新北市他就覺得你把他放在垃圾裡面反正我都去粉化廠燒掉但是你要立竿所以每個縣市有一點點不一樣但是我們未來還是希望做更有效的利用"},{"start":15396.663,"end":15418.019,"text":"所以部長結論就是說例如像我常常在各縣市跑行程那我今天到新北我就是把我剩下的這個廚餘把它瀝乾那我去到某個縣市就沒關係全部都把它丟進去那我再到台北市來我可能又要做另外的處理是這樣子"},{"start":15419.139,"end":15447.118,"text":"其實我們還是希望要分類啦但是因為像我所知道是以新北市來說的話他們因為就是鼓勵大家立竿混在垃圾裡面做處理那這樣好不好那個所以部長結論到底是什麼你這樣講我們還是無所適從啦所以在一個時間內我們應該要怎麼辦還是說還是就要看每個人身份證那個開頭還是說在哪裏我們還是期待要分類一定要分類那這樣好不好我這樣講"},{"start":15449.94,"end":15473.851,"text":"我們在過了這個非常時期邁入正常的時期之後我們的現在不給豬吃廚餘的前提之下那我們接下來廚餘到底真正應該是要怎麼處理還是要分類該分類廚餘還是廚餘那我們一般家庭裡面到底要準備多少個垃圾桶才夠"},{"start":15476.631,"end":15495.762,"text":"我們是 沒關係你講個量這樣我們有概念至少要可燃不可燃還有廚餘對 但是廚餘又要再分類啊所以我要準備多少個桶子來目前廚餘只要瀝乾就可以了不用再去分生的熟的吧或者有骨頭沒骨頭這樣子是"},{"start":15499.471,"end":15515.88,"text":"這個委員思考的很對啦因為依照他後續再利用的設施例如他如果是去生殖能源的話他大概就不用分類那如果是有些堆肥譬如有一些椰子殼啊等等的還是會被分出來"},{"start":15516.7,"end":15536.617,"text":"大概是這個樣子那這個部分就依照各縣市它以後所設的這個設施在收集的時候它清潔隊就會去宣導它的桶子應該放在什麼地方所以原則上以後可能會分成兩桶一個是生殖能源化 一個是堆肥"},{"start":15537.247,"end":15556.617,"text":"好那因為我又聽到你的關鍵字就是還是要未來看每個縣市怎麼樣所以我還是很暈倒就是大家仍然是無所適從的所以這個部分不管你們要分各個縣市還是怎麼樣那我就覺得你們是不是可以落實也協助每個縣市就落實宣導"},{"start":15558.479,"end":15587.023,"text":"到底廚餘應該要怎麼分類因為每個縣市它的像有的縣市它未來就要做生殖能廠那它就可以照嚴署長說的那有的縣市它未來的主力是這個下水到驗氧發酵有一個潮那它可能就不用特別分類所以我們現在等於是盤點出來的量能未來的量能之後應該可以照委員的建議說能夠再更明確加強宣導那怎麼去做處理"},{"start":15587.523,"end":15614.382,"text":"那你大概預期什麼時候可以達到這個理想的境界我們預期當然這個量能平衡不用去焚化爐大概還要一年多的時間一年多的時間那這個一年多的時間就可以到那個階段那我也請你們就是超前部署提早規劃在這個時間的來臨的時候我們可以怎麼樣大家都做好準備就可以很快上軌道做好分類好不好好可以那"},{"start":15616.738,"end":15635.14,"text":"那这个部分我想接下来就是说我们身为民意代表也是必须要来替民众发声那一旦就是说垃圾场的大火发生大量的这个浓烟恶臭造成空气品质是非常不好的我们大家将心比心"},{"start":15636.461,"end":15655.131,"text":"居民到底這樣的大火發生的時候居民需不需要暫時撤離或者是發放救助金讓附近的民眾可以離開如果是這樣子的做法有利於這個民眾的健康那環境部是不是應該來好好的規劃一下就是說這些暫時撤離的標準"},{"start":15656.792,"end":15680.121,"text":"好那包括這個氣象啊火勢蔓延的程度啊還有這個財務救助的發放標準我想這幾個方面哦執行面其實是可以來讓地方政府來處理但是我覺得經費的部分還是可以由環境部的掌握的這個基金來支應我不曉得部長評估本席這樣的"},{"start":15681.414,"end":15706.745,"text":"政策建議我們再來思考啦因為我們空污基金可能沒有這樣的特別的一個用途過但是我們的預警是有的預警是有那我所知道像像台南這次發生這個烏樹林的事因為燒比較久所以他對於這個附近的居民如何去做一些協助回饋等等他們都有在溝通你說有但我們台中看起來都是無預警啊"},{"start":15708.931,"end":15727.78,"text":"無預警也無所適從這個部分未來我們如果針對這種大型的災害的戰事場的分布如果未來遇到著火的時候怎麼去建議怎麼去處理或許我們可以在這個後面的細節裡面來討論接下來我想跟部長稍微討論一下這個狀況因為我們就從近期台東縣發生了兩場大火來請教"},{"start":15734.804,"end":15760.054,"text":"最近一場是2025年7月5號發生在我們台東北南鄉山里野蠻場的這個火警那猜測是這個廢棄物堆積發酵產熱然後氣候乾燥風勢又很強勁所引起的那但是真正的起火原因上代釐清目前大家還不是很清楚那這一場火燃燒的這個"},{"start":15762.675,"end":15789.133,"text":"面積大概有這個400平方公尺左右那因為產生大量的這個濃煙惡臭呢影響到居民的生活所以迫使當地的居民呢必須要暫時的撤離那就是也因此引發了就是說大家對於掩埋場管理還有焚化爐去化能力不足的這些關注要求政府要加速處理堆積垃圾還有這個早期的問題"},{"start":15790.174,"end":15801.585,"text":"那部長我就想請教就是說火災發生的時間是在上午9點35分那為什麼大白天還是沒有辦法在第一時間開始救火呢"},{"start":15803.097,"end":15832.297,"text":"這個案子我不太清楚可能是通常這個就是說要不斷的灑水噴水那其實因為它的量體如果掩埋場的量體都要很大那其實以我們最近看到幾個例子它要灑水要噴水其實不見得馬上就有效不過每個地方不一樣它的可能是我猜的是它的水線可能沒有很完整所以才會造成這樣的結果所以目前為了對於這種掩埋場它的監控甚至灑水系統等等救的話我們都要再提升"},{"start":15832.717,"end":15853.208,"text":"因為燃燒的三要素就是溫度、氧氣跟可燃物部長是氣象專家但是火災爆炸他是另外一個專業我們也請教過專家就是氣體會閃燃只要溫度到了就會自動燃燒起來"},{"start":15854.409,"end":15882.181,"text":"那像這種由這個早氣引燃火災的這個起火燃點呢都比較低那你們的這個國家環境研究院呢應該趕快去蒐集資料然後就是說跟這個模擬實驗那針對過去的大火天候的因素去做分析然後同時把這些結果呢提供給地方的環保局跟這個各個垃圾場去做有效的監督管理"},{"start":15884.102,"end":15907.595,"text":"謝謝委員這個建議這個現在我有特別交代我們化學署跟防管署我們要跟那個消防署合作這個是事前的這個預防那這個要做還有一個就是怎麼救就兩個事前的預防像委員講到這個就是燃燒的三要素很重要那因為這個這個掩埋場的火災跟那個一般的家裡的火災是不一樣的所以我們要專門請他們那種消防專業來針對我們來做處理"},{"start":15910.216,"end":15930.53,"text":"而且我們全台有400多個掩埋場其實每一個掩埋場狀況其實都不太一樣所以他們應該逐一都去做分析研究對好那其次就是不同的可燃物有不同的救災方式那電氣火災跟一般的這個住家火災還有滅火器跟這個救災的策略是不太一樣的"},{"start":15931.391,"end":15955.057,"text":"那最近從這個台南烏樹林的大火不斷的這個復燒我是擔心是不是說我們的救災設備跟滅火物質可以有更好更新的技術那剛剛部長也有提到就是說我們那個救災的這個救火的方式其實是非常傳統的那尤其是這種大面積的這個燃燒那消防人員跟車輛"},{"start":15956.737,"end":15975.612,"text":"其實是很難靠近的還有有這個就是說由這個相關基金應該是說環境部我們是不是針對這個垃圾場的大火由這個相關的基金提供經費給這個消防署讓他們引進新的救災技術"},{"start":15976.693,"end":15993.226,"text":"部長有沒有覺得這個可行性謝謝委員的建議我們的確是希望跟消防署合作一個研究計畫我們來出錢先來研究說這個怎麼救因為我也聽到說很多人國外說有一個弄一個很大的防火毯整個蓋上去但是那個毯子要很大"},{"start":15993.706,"end":16014.288,"text":"然後或是說有一些特別的化學藥劑冷卻降溫很多人都提供給我一些意見但是其實我是認為還是要請消防專家整個幫我們看這種火要怎麼救因為目前我所看到的實際上第一線的人他還是用灑水來降溫所以這個的確是不夠所以委員你說的就是我們現在想要"},{"start":16015.209,"end":16026.988,"text":"所以这个部分如果需要环境部经费协助消防署的话也请你们不吝于多多分享我们现在准备要这样做希望能够来规划一下"},{"start":16028.315,"end":16049.328,"text":"對那因為最後的另外一個點是在那個台東台東市的建農垃圾掩埋場的大火那這場大火是發生在凌晨1點15分起火的連燒了很多天那因為火勢很猛烈濃煙惡臭影響到附近的居民所以呢部分的居民都需要暫時的安置後續呢"},{"start":16050.248,"end":16072.563,"text":"里長很辛苦啦里長也都帶著居民到這個議會去陳情那要求就是要處理這個堆積的垃圾跟早氣避免說重蹈覆轍那其實我的原因也是大概就是不離天氣乾燥廢棄物自然還有早氣的累積啦那這邊要強調最後要強調就是說我們台東縣的這個天候的因素"},{"start":16073.871,"end":16097.526,"text":"特別是在大武那邊有焚風所以這個很恐怖也因此就是說垃圾場更容易有出現自然的火災我們整個台東縣其實天氣都是非常熱的地方政府的經費跟資源是有限只要發生這種火災都會造成民眾可能會被迫要撤離家園"},{"start":16098.286,"end":16113.205,"text":"而且可能是在白天也有可能是在深夜那我们不确定这样子的火灾风险是真的让附近的民众大家最近都人心惶惶生活很不安那具体的撤离标准那"},{"start":16113.565,"end":16131.23,"text":"救助金的補助還有研究垃圾自然起火的條件跟提升監督管理的效能我們也需要消防救災的單位針對這種垃圾山火災具有最新最有效的控制方法能夠儘早的發現儘早啟動有效的救災"},{"start":16135.492,"end":16149.39,"text":"讓我們可以減少空氣污染的這個對於健康的影響那這些我們需要像部長這樣有專業有使命的環境部部長來支持那我想以上建議部長"},{"start":16150.131,"end":16172.303,"text":"今天是否都可以委員你說的就是我想做的但是你特別點到了台東特別的條件特別是有墳墓等等的地理條件的特性那我們這邊會到時候把台東的狀況把它考慮進去到時候我們完成的部分如果有一些需要改進的部分也請委員給我一些指教因為不只墳墓我們整體的氣溫就是比較高是好沒問題我們會來辦理"},{"start":16175.205,"end":16203.323,"text":"好 那個內政部也麻煩把本席的建議帶回去好 謝謝謝謝陳英委員發言賴世寶委員 賴世寶委員 賴世寶委員不在蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜委員不在鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員不在楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在葉元之委員 葉元之委員"},{"start":16205.405,"end":16209.928,"text":"剛好趕到好 請葉原之委員發言沒問題"},{"start":16239.698,"end":16240.242,"text":"請環境部長謝謝請彭部長"},{"start":16245.306,"end":16270.058,"text":"業文好部長想請教一下我們現在因為那個養豬就是廚餘的養豬現在分兩種嘛一種是家戶的話現在是要禁止嘛對不對但是如果是事業事業的部分的話是還可以去養豬對吧那根據你們的資料顯示就是因為禁止廚餘就是家戶的廚餘禁止養豬大概一天會增加593噸"},{"start":16272.239,"end":16279.863,"text":"這是全國的數字嗎全國的數字然後呢現在的廚餘除了養豬之外其他的廚餘大概是一天是791噸"},{"start":16281.86,"end":16307.284,"text":"所以啊593加上791大概一天要去去化的處於是1384噸是然後根據你們資料呢總設施量能是1100噸所以大概會多出284噸必須要透過焚化跟掩埋這是現行的狀況嗎是沒錯嘛然後115年的話大概要多出一天要395噸去焚化去化是"},{"start":16310.385,"end":16331.601,"text":"但是因為我現在看到環境部的資料都是全國的總數可是實際上你要處理這個廚餘並不是全國一起統一來調度它是給各縣市的清潔隊或者是以清業者來處理所以換句話說環境部如果負責任的話應該要給大家各縣市的數據我舉個例子來講好了比如說"},{"start":16333.542,"end":16352.303,"text":"新北市新北市他一天三個焚化油加起來總共可以處理2600噸可是新北市要必須就是所產生出來的垃圾是3000噸他已經有400噸的垃圾他是要移到外縣市來處理那現在如果再把"},{"start":16353.504,"end":16379.659,"text":"廚餘的量加進來新北市的部分那就是不夠啦它等於是又有更多的垃圾要移到外縣市來處理那這個會增加什麼這會增加我們新北市的每一個人處理垃圾的費用譬如說可能已清業者他因為有更多的垃圾他要移到外縣市去處理他會增加成本那羊毛住在羊身上啊他最後增加成本的錢跟誰收跟我們新北市民來收啊"},{"start":16380.299,"end":16408.137,"text":"所以新北市配合中央的廚餘政策當然這個是環境部為了環境的政策大家都沒有意見可是配套是說怎麼樣在各縣市配合中央之餘中央可以協助不至於說讓新北市民的處理垃圾成本提高特別是在要協助全國調度的部分否則的話可能我們新北市處理你現在給的量其實只看到一個全國台北搞得沒問題"},{"start":16408.817,"end":16432.481,"text":"新北搞不好有問題阿其他縣市又沒問題另外一個縣市又有問題阿我覺得這樣的一個數據是不夠負責任阿我不知道說部長能不能跟謝謝委員我澄清一下齁其實我們都當然我們處理加起來當然有每個縣市的數據新北市目前的量能是平衡的但是他因為新北市目前去化的這個管道像台北市還有一個堆肥廠每天可以處理一百多噸那新北市還沒有"},{"start":16433.061,"end":16449.518,"text":"是也積極的在開發當中發展當中那它目前的量呢並沒有說去化的這個不夠的一個問題但是也跟委員報告其實這個除以我們加護的部分本來就清潔隊在收不會增加我們的費用不會增加本來是加護在收而且是隨帶徵收"},{"start":16450.979,"end":16468.565,"text":"所以廚藝的問題在新北市的家戶家庭是沒有問題但是有一些如果餐廳餐廳如果是這個要變成是以輕去收的話他當然就會有一定的一定的費用包含的焚燒的費用清運的費用的確是在裡面的我講是說你你現在是認為說新北市可以自己消化自己垃圾嗎"},{"start":16469.205,"end":16495.93,"text":"目前這是非常樂觀的狀況目前的情況目前嘛但是如果把未來的儲運進來的話也許就是他們新北市沒有辦法特別是已清的業者我的了解就是說他沒有辦法處理很多都已經移到外縣市了所以部長你掌握的狀況跟實際上狀況可能有一定的落差沒有沒有因為我們的廚藥不能夠外送到我覺得你是不是你是不是各縣市的狀況去掌握一下給一個具體的比較具體的數據"},{"start":16497.99,"end":16514.44,"text":"每個縣市他的狀況我們都非常清楚我們都跟縣市環保局都有密切的協調可是我了解的不是這樣因為你剛剛講說各縣市都可以消化自己的垃圾但我有實際上了解的狀況除以的話光新北市我剛剛就講了嘛"},{"start":16515.16,"end":16543.242,"text":"新北市造成的垃圾就是三千噸嘛他的三個焚化爐加起來是兩千六百噸嘛就是有差不多四百噸是要另外去處理的要運到外縣市他們會透過一個協調的機制這就是我了解的狀況嘛但是鋪長剛剛一直講說沒問題沒問題甚至於加了廚餘進來都沒問題這是簡單數學的問題沒有沒有 瓜哥我跟你講新北市的目前的這個廚餘是鼓勵他們瀝乾變成是跟垃圾一起去救焚化爐那還是會增加啊"},{"start":16544.102,"end":16558.472,"text":"你本來是可以養豬嘛本來可以養豬現在不行就是會增加這基本數學問題嘛所以我覺得這個問題因為是跟民生息息相關啦我覺得不要用一些數字好像就粉飾太平還是你仔細去了解一下好不好"},{"start":16560.301,"end":16577.532,"text":"真的跟你講的狀況跟我實際的狀況跟你講的狀況跟我實際的狀況不一樣我是直接跟環保局的局長直接通電話我們狀況也了解的蠻清楚的你還是除了官方的說法之外也要各方面去打聽一下"},{"start":16579.774,"end":16592.585,"text":"第二另外我再請教一下因為上禮拜我們在教育委員會核安會有來啦那大家一直針對就是核能如果核電廠如果要研議到底要不要環評這個問題大家都有討論有的民進黨的立委就認為要環評那是環評法的環評不是你講的政策環評"},{"start":16600.131,"end":16626.481,"text":"那可是因為部長講一個政策環評就讓大家覺得模擬兩可你是認為到底要環評還是不要環評還是政策環評就可以呃這個部分因為我我們也跟那個河岸會有過協調因為河岸會是主指的是游離輻射他需要環評那我們部分環境部的部分是針對對環境影響評估的環評所以基本上我們兩個是不一樣的一個角色但是大家混在一起嗎所以針對環境部的部分如果核電廠研議要環評嗎"},{"start":16627.681,"end":16651.596,"text":"包委我們的確有在研議我們是討論這個事情因為按照現在的環評法它是既有的設施重啓或研議是不用環評的但是問題是說它是一個新責任的授予所以很多的人也給我們一些不同的意見所以我們也專門也會在研究各國的這樣的一個到底要不要環評所以是有可能要環評"},{"start":16652.336,"end":16660.25,"text":"基本上委員你們修改了法令光電板5M就要還平了那它這個是幾百公頃你覺得要不要沒有它是重啟啊"},{"start":16661.414,"end":16682.166,"text":"但是它是一個新車的壽宇我們講的是新設啊你這是重啟欸重啟這是新車的壽宇它是一個新車的壽宇這不來跟你吵架的好不好沒有沒有那我請教一下那新達電廠火力發電廠它退役的為什麼重啟不用換屏那個是不一樣哪裡都不一樣那廢話每一個能源都不一樣啊那我在講核能你講光電那我講火力你又說不一樣這不一樣不一樣委員這個"},{"start":16685.028,"end":16694.976,"text":"這個時間還沒有到因為我覺得他們如果要送一個進來也要到一年多後的一個時間那我們現在還有機會再來那你覺得要重啟要還評的理由是什麼重啟要還評的理由是什麼"},{"start":16699.883,"end":16713.822,"text":"呃我們我們基本上沒有說我現在重啟要還品啊你剛剛說在研議啊你剛剛是說在研議啊然後你剛剛還質疑啊就是說光電板都要還品的為什麼電腦這剛剛不是你講的嗎這個是很多人質疑的啊不是不是那你是部長嘛"},{"start":16715.063,"end":16741.637,"text":"你又不是很多的你是部長你的態度嘛所以你覺得要還是不要基本上現在還沒有到達那個時機點那我們也會再來做研究到底哪一個需要那我這樣講我不知道是不是有曲解你的意思你的意思是說你們在演繹當中只是還沒有到時間點所以時間點到了話到時候你會告訴大家要環評還是不要環評是不是基本上這個是一個程序因為我們畢竟環評我們是環境部我們並沒有核能的專業在裡面"},{"start":16742.677,"end":16769.745,"text":"所以基本上這個還是我們會跟那個河岸會去做河岸會就說不需要啊河岸會就說他們該做都會做啊他們就說他們的部分比如說他們就他們的業務範圍之內到底重啟對環境的影響他們這個部分他們會做啊對啊那現在有講的是環境部自己要不要根據環評法嗎你們要還是不要按照現在的法規是不要嘛可是你剛剛講說對可是你剛剛講說因為各界給你很多意見"},{"start":16770.385,"end":16785.937,"text":"所以你們還在研議當中而且你說像光電板都要環評的為什麼核電研議不要這個是外界給我的這是你剛剛講的這個是外界給我的質疑外界都有很多意見我們現在問的是環境部的態度嘛基本上現在這個事情還沒有發生所以你現在是要所以是不做"},{"start":16786.789,"end":16802.507,"text":"要做還是不做還是說到時候再看看我們還在研究當中還在研究就是有可能要做這個主則還是屬於這個何安會他們要在主席我聽不懂你到底要講什麼主席你聽得懂他講什麼嗎他聽得懂啊那麼簡單主席他說你聽得懂你聽得懂嗎"},{"start":16803.228,"end":16821.887,"text":"不是 我的問題這麼簡單是你要求你一開始要求說合二合三也要做環評然後你剛剛又講說這不是你的業務 這合安會的業務然後我說那是怎麼樣你說但是有很多人給你意見然後呢時間還沒到所以到時候會出來一個決定而且你說光電板都做了核電廠怎麼可以不做"},{"start":16822.407,"end":16840.889,"text":"所以你的立場是跳動的浮動的沒有跳動沒有跳動我們現在給你完整時間講到底要做還是不要做這個時間點還沒有到嘛那所以等到那個時間點的時候你會告訴大家要做不做是不是基本上我們還在研究當中嘛所以在研究當中嘛現在就研究要做還是不要做嘛"},{"start":16841.249,"end":16866.74,"text":"只是時間點還沒到你還不到公佈答案的時候嘛等到時間點到你就要公佈答案要做還是不要做嘛對不對這個不是我公佈的這個還是要我們公佈要不要做環評公佈要不要做環評是不是基本上這個是環評法就有規定現在的這個不是嘛你剛剛就說你剛剛講說現在環評法規定不用做但是因為很多人給你意見所以你們要研議要不要做如果要做你可能就修法嘛"},{"start":16867.9,"end":16890.697,"text":"你的意思就是這樣啊那我現在問你說是不是這個意思你講話一直變來變去我沒有變來變去啊那是怎樣我以為你這時間點都還沒有到沒有時間還沒到那你現在在演繹當中所以我做個簡單結論就是因為時間點還沒到所以你現在無法給大家一個答案就是到底要不要環評嗎但是等到時間到了你就會告訴大家要環評還是不要環評嗎這有去卷你的意思嗎這有去卷你的意思嗎"},{"start":16891.96,"end":16907.374,"text":"不是你這這麼簡單我們剛剛的對話應該是國小程度的對話吧這中文理解有那麼難嗎為什麼中文沒辦法起到溝通的作用除非你立場跳動嘛你很難自圓其說你才會變這樣嘛那你的立場到底是什麼"},{"start":16910.461,"end":16937.723,"text":"基本上現在按照現在的環評法是不需要環評的我當然知道啊我當然知道啊對啊但是你剛剛講說因為很多人給你意見啊所以呢你們在研議要不要做環評啊然後我問你說那要不要你說還沒有到時間點啊所以等到到時候時間點你就會告訴大家要做還是不要做啊我的結論有有違背你的意思嗎而且你剛剛還嗆說哎呦連光電板都要做了為什麼這是這是很多人是啊是啊是啊所以很多人"},{"start":16938.343,"end":16947.787,"text":"用這個立場來跟你建議嘛就是說連光電板都要做環評的為什麼核電研議不要做環評所以你覺得到時候可能會做環評你們還在研議當中嘛這樣有說這樣有講錯嗎基本上各個國家的都有不一樣的狀況嘛我們也在看各個國家怎麼去做這個事所以你在研議中嘛我們以前從來沒有做過嘛所以你在參考各個國家的意見你在參考各個國家的做法你在參考很多人給你的意見但是因為時間還沒到"},{"start":16965.635,"end":16973.026,"text":"所以你到時候才決定要不要做環評就這麼簡單你的意思不就這樣嗎我之前也說過就是這個樣子所以你的意思是說有可能要做只是實驗時間點還沒到你不能這樣套我的話"},{"start":16982.024,"end":17009.705,"text":"這就是你的意思啊這就是你的意思啊這個還沒有發生嘛這就是你的意思有可能就是有可能要也有可能不要嘛因為你在演繹當中嘛你在參考各國做法嘛然後很多人給你意見嘛就是這個意思嘛然後你還講說光電板都要做為什麼核電演繹不要做不是別人要求的委員你別人要求不是我是問部長的立場嘛誰怪你別人有沒有要求你是部長嘛每個人會有的跟你講要做有的跟你講不要做像我就覺得不用做啊"},{"start":17010.325,"end":17027.487,"text":"那有人跟你要做我現在問你是主管機關的態度嘛我又不是問你別人有沒有給你意見你就聽我說的基本上這個事情有各個國家有各個國家的做法那我們現在按照現在的環評法規是不需要的但是其實也有一派的說這個是新責任的授予需要"},{"start":17027.987,"end":17051.915,"text":"但是我們現在會跟那個核安會去討論因為他們是核能的主管機關他到底要做些什麼事情他來他必須要負擔更多的一個責任例如說他這個核子輻射對環境的影響等等他們會比我們專業的多但是我們就公眾參與環保的部分的話全民參與的部分我們也希望他可以參與的參考我們的環評做法可以讓大家可以多一點意見的表達"},{"start":17052.759,"end":17063.16,"text":"我已經問過核安會了 他就是說他們該做就會做不太需要環境部來下指導棋啦好 謝謝他沒有這樣講後面的是我講 但他說他該做都會做"},{"start":17064.321,"end":17089.922,"text":"你不要多講他說的他多做的所以他該做他都會做但你現在又說你要去找他討論我們也有在討論你又要去找他討論所以你現在的意思就是說何安會做完之後你認為因為很多人給你意見要參考各國做法我也沒有這樣講你剛剛就這樣子講的嘛你不要勸張取義喔沒有沒有我給你非常多的時間我想在座的包括大家有看質詢都會非常清楚"},{"start":17090.182,"end":17109.187,"text":"沒有這樣講絕對就這個意思沒有沒有你就是這個意思我沒有下指導棋喔沒有沒有下指導棋你去找他建議嘛你在受訪還是什麼時候你就說啊這核安會應該怎樣應該怎樣這不是下指導棋是什麼這是定義的論題嘛那是什麼這是協商啊什麼協商你說核安會要怎樣怎樣怎樣這要協商喔"},{"start":17110.143,"end":17137.599,"text":"這個是在命令河岸會應該怎樣應該怎樣不是指導棋這是什麼我覺得一直在去炒那個定義的問題你去叫河岸會幹嘛幹嘛幹嘛這是指導棋啊這是什麼我們沒有叫他做什麼這個是人家詢問說這個是誰的責任當然是河岸會他們要做這樣的判斷嘛好沒關係啦謝謝好謝謝謝謝葉仁志委員發言接下來請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在好"},{"start":17139.178,"end":17165.501,"text":"那本日會議詢答全部結束委員楊耀徐欣穎所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定那本日會議到此結束現在散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166434","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166434","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906ee280e117835fc383d053df696e011f86697ca1ee740c94b0d8c7324e0a01dc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:16:34 - 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農業部的規劃呢"},{"start":133.342,"end":157.422,"text":"就未來你們要把...工業部後續的規劃就是針對有關於廚餘飼料化的部分對 飼料化我們現在已經成立一個小組希望說有系統將現在目前的可能的共同政府中心或者是可以增加其他的能夠將一些事業的廚餘還是不能用家務廚餘事業的廚餘或是食品下繳料能夠變成有規格的飼料"},{"start":157.822,"end":172.478,"text":"那這個部分我想他後續的飼料有機會降低成本那這樣的話對於我們維持黑豬的產業是有幫助的這個我們會來協助好那想要請教就是說好你現在廚餘要做飼料化那事實上我們事實上"},{"start":173.318,"end":198.231,"text":"在推動這個黑水盲的這個循環的這個產業雖然也推動一段時間但是黑水盲事實上它還是有它在去化所謂廚餘的時候的一些障礙其中最大的一點就是土地取得的一個障礙現在它還是需要要用環保用地才能夠去養黑水盲現在用農業用地應該可以現在農業用地要怎麼可以申請嗎"},{"start":200.595,"end":223.825,"text":"這部分是怎樣 只要變更 只要他凝聚新辦事業 就辦理那個農地的變更編訂就可以了農變嘛 就是用農變的方式來處理有辦法這樣做嗎 就是你現在的農地 你要做這些黑水盲的話我們可以用他提出一個新辦事業 然後我們同意他農地變更用這種方式 那黑水盲之後的使用呢 是可以去當飼料"},{"start":225.069,"end":241.432,"text":"還是黑水芒的後續的使用方式他應該可以再變成一個飼料化的部分不能直接從體去餵啦他一定要變成變成粉以後變成一個飼料有規格的有規格品的部分就可以餵到豬"},{"start":243.776,"end":263.818,"text":"就是黑水芒先去化廚餘然後黑水芒長大後再經過你們的專業處理然後黑水芒就是蟲的部分再轉化成飼料就是我們現在講的就是一個讓它飼料化那站在日本那邱志偉委員帶隊去看的他們所謂的這個就是"},{"start":265.119,"end":281.69,"text":"也是經過高溫的 高溫把它顆粒化那還是把它做成飼料嘛對 飼料一個最重要的特色就是它的產品是有規格化的而且它的品質是穩定的它不像現在的廚藝有沒有它是不穩定的部長 那這些成本呢"},{"start":282.694,"end":307.037,"text":"成本的部分呢沒有我們現在就是說我們一直希望說第一個就是未來黑豬產業的持續發展我們一方面開發現在的配方那另一方面就是用廚藝轉化成飼料那這個兩個是同步在執行的好那部長可以先回那環境部先再留一下是那第二個我要問一下就是說"},{"start":308.228,"end":330.438,"text":"事實上這個嘉義市的這個垃圾站自產他4年已經四度大火了從111年8月112年2月到113年的2月跟114年的4月那都說是不管是鋰電池的自燃啊或者是彈簧船的床墊的自燃總是說他名字叫做站自產但是他"},{"start":332.011,"end":351.773,"text":"它的管制的力道就是比一般的這個廢棄物的一個最終氣質廠管的還鬆嘛所以它這樣大火燒起來然後也沒有人有辦法去理解說到底為什麼產生這樣的大火然後每一次只要進入到冬季然後這個東北季風來"},{"start":352.834,"end":369.813,"text":"這一些有汙染有毒的這一些氣體類全部都漂到水上跟中埔來造成我們當地的居民的受損這個我也不是第一次質詢的我已經質詢到這一次到這一次應該包括在未完會加起來應該是超過4次的質詢了但是"},{"start":370.974,"end":391.282,"text":"衛福部都沒有辦法告訴我們像這樣的戰事場它雖然是放在嘉義市的比較偏嘉義市區比較遠的地方但是離嘉義縣人口密集的地方非常近一公里都不到離我們這麼近然後每一次都發生狀況火災了東北季風直接都把這些空氣都影響到我們的縣民"},{"start":392.242,"end":406.02,"text":"那我們現在我們環保我們我們環境部到底有什麼辦法可以約束這樣用戰字廠這樣的名字來偷渡他們是做這個垃圾的氣質廠來跟委員報告好以嘉義市這個垃圾"},{"start":408.479,"end":434.89,"text":"掩埋場這個戰事場為例他在戰事的過程當中他必須要加強維護管理比如說消防的設施紅外線的偵測等等那24小時要有人巡檢這是最基本的所以這個部分我們會針對經常發生火災這些掩埋場或戰事場那會做一個全面性的檢討希望他們必須要加強這些管理的措施"},{"start":436.05,"end":455.258,"text":"那目的只是為了在第一時間如果因為蓄熱然後引起這樣的一個高溫然後自然的時候第一時間就能夠做這樣的一個即時的撲滅那這個部分容我們再跟各縣市環保局會把這個場列為最優先市長我還是要說一下啦你們112年你們說你們說現在因為只有一個叫做資源回收"},{"start":460.738,"end":476.856,"text":"储存场实地辅导作业你们只有这样的一个叫做作业办法而已那我已经三度的透过质询包括现在这一次又第四次就是说我们要有一个中央统一规范就是针对这种跨县式的"},{"start":478.177,"end":504.949,"text":"既然它叫做跨縣市它表示它的影響所及並不是只有在他們縣他們自己市區的範圍它已經影響到了周遭縣民的時候是不是這部分的審查必須要做由中央來介入審查不然你們現在嘉義市的這一個環保暫住場他們是自己生產的沒經過你們你知道他們的焚化爐他們也是自己生產的焚化爐要小爐小爐變大爐"},{"start":507.33,"end":521.208,"text":"要開始燒的東西要量 要增加會影響到我們的管理人員嗎?會嗎?市長 會嘛 會對不對 不然會這件事他們要通過焚化爐的擴大是嘉義市政府自己審查"},{"start":522.662,"end":545.988,"text":"那你至少要讓我們嘉義縣表示意見嘛沒有餒 他們都自己審查餒然後你知道嗎 你知道他們多誇張他們說他們有辦一個公聽會然後辦公聽會有邀請我們的議員跟我們公所水上公所跟中府公所去參加然後我們去參加我們就是表達抗議他就說因為政府來抗議所以你們就等於有參加公聽會了"},{"start":547.535,"end":575.673,"text":"這樣每個人都賺過耶市長我跟委員報告像這種鄰近跨縣市的部分我們會特別要求我們的因為這個案子是回收的設施會跟我們的循環署有關那如果是垃圾掩埋場的部分會跟我們的環管署有關不管是環管署或循環署對於這種容易因為戰事造成的這個失火這個部分我們一起來研議啦又噴化爐啦又是站住場失火市長我覺得這個我覺得鄉親的感覺都很直白"},{"start":575.953,"end":600.703,"text":"我們就去那裡你唯一一條線啦看他們那個贊助場到水上公司比較近到中部公司比較近還是去他們家裡政府比較近啦我跟你保證一定是我們比較近啦我們這裡的人口密集這麼高他們放在他們的高窟地圖直接你看他們放在他們的郊區然後告訴我們他們家醫師放在這裡他們沒有影響我們這裡的縣民就都不是人這個"},{"start":602.063,"end":626.473,"text":"中央要介入這種已經是跨縣市的中央要介入說那至少兩邊要怎麼樣做好遁清木林要怎樣讓縣的人也可以接受說我旁邊有焚化爐我旁邊有這樣叫做環保氣質場然後發生火災的時候我們都被氣質不理跟委員報告這個案子讓我們會和我們專案來處理再跟委員做一個回報謝謝市長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166433","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166433","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da7590641e1bf9249a9287ae3a1989ac581c2286697ca1ee740c94b43e27919c524e7415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"12:16:18 - 12:23:36","影片長度":"00:07:18","會議時間":"2025-12-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21 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是的 今天波及了三個民宅還好是未爆的那如果今天是爆炸了是不是那就這個問題我第二點就交於你"},{"start":248.345,"end":268.212,"text":"那就對於這個炮兵指揮部的這個周邊的地區也有相關的居民的木林的這樣子的經費是不是那是不是給予檢討並且予以提高因為就你們現在演練的結果產生了這樣子的差別"},{"start":268.652,"end":291.201,"text":"那是不是對於安撫周邊居民以及減少相關的這個道路的問題那是不是提高所有的就是說周邊的這個木林經費的相關的我只有兩點向您報告第一點有關於這三戶受到波及的民宅我們在11月11號"},{"start":293.061,"end":297.445,"text":"10號跟11號也已經跟百姓完成一個賠償我知道了但是牧領經費的部分我向您報告因為目前我們在這個訓場周邊這個包含到北斗、田中、西州的三個訓場目前都是我們牧領經費的最高的級數是1000萬元"},{"start":313.416,"end":338.211,"text":"那它因為超過涉及天數還有飛躍到百姓的這個涉及線我們所謂的泡沫線是有穿越民宅這個都有加成那這個以西州來說它都已經加成到1380萬元那是有如您委員所指導的它是在最高上限之外還有額外結合地區涉及任務的特性有加成的設計"},{"start":339.011,"end":354.791,"text":"好那個參謀長我必須要跟你說就是現在的這個我們的台灣就是地下人籌的一個地方那你們就是所有的訓練場都離民宅非常近"},{"start":355.933,"end":370.556,"text":"你去看那個你有去看過吧你有去看過那都離民宅非常近所以當你即便是我們很快跟民宅做成了達成了和解但是未來要"},{"start":371.457,"end":388.4,"text":"協助就是這些居民可以能夠安全的能夠信任國防部嘛是不是信任你們陸軍嘛可以在那裡繼續的做演練嘛那如果這樣情況下要求你提高這個就是相關的募集應該沒有什麼"},{"start":389.2,"end":412.188,"text":"這個有關木林的經費我們會就全全國的三軍的相關的這個火炮射擊的訓拔場我們會來做一個全面性的通盤依照民意的和實際的現況來做一個全面性的檢討我是說你要特別的注意相關的好不好相關的這個民眾的感受以及居民的安全"},{"start":412.628,"end":437.669,"text":"可不可以我想居民的安全是最重要的我們會在因為這個事件我有請陸軍司令部來做檢討有關整個相關訓練的這個一些事項包括公告啦還有包括攝像啦還有包括剛剛您提到的這些種種我們都會請陸軍司令部來做一個檢討務必讓居民安心 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謝謝主席 那請我們彭部長請彭部長欸 杜委員好"},{"start":21.192,"end":46.086,"text":"好 部長那我們現在有預計2027我們廚藥養豬是全面要退場那在2028針對我們焚化掩埋到時候也是要歸零對不對我們預計的期程大概是這樣其實歸零的話應該在兩年多後就會歸零就是差不多2028我是希望可以快一點啦例如說廚藥的量可以減少源頭減量會更快"},{"start":47.126,"end":66.28,"text":"所以到時候我們大宗大宗的部分大部分會變成堆肥然後再來還有什麼生殖能等等嘛那我們上一次也有到我們未還委員會也有到桃園去考察針對我們生殖能中心還有民間廚餘去化的機構去考察"},{"start":66.94,"end":91.298,"text":"那我們那時候也有看到我們民間廚餘去化這個機構它佔地面積又小而且它三個小時就可以把廚餘去化變成堆肥那它液體的部分可以做有機的營養液那固體的部分它可以做有機的肥料而且它這個是我們中興大學跟中研院產學合作的成果"},{"start":91.958,"end":105.934,"text":"而且它一天處理的量能可以到100噸甚至可以更高那針對這一部分部長對這個技術覺得如果說我們到時候進廚藝是不是這個部分應該要去大力推廣一下"},{"start":106.715,"end":128.513,"text":"上禮拜也去那個廠看過了那其實第一個是說它的這個這個藻役的部分其實它是有用的可是現在變成是廢棄物去做處理也讓它的這個整個去化的成本這個一噸大概要五千六百塊所以我們現在會協調我們已經跟那個農業部有在協調說如何把那個去化"},{"start":129.053,"end":145.487,"text":"做更有效的利用不要把它當成廢棄物啦這個我們在談但是農業部那邊有一些原來法規上的一個限制所以目前我們正在協調當中那我是希望像這個廠商讓它可以更好就可以更成功的解決廚藝去化的問題"},{"start":146.508,"end":171.101,"text":"因為現在是我們政策的問題它本來所有的這些廚餘它可以百分之百的廚餘而且沒有碳排 沒有汙染可以做成有機營養液然後固體的又做有機肥料剛剛部長講到一個重點它本來這個有機營養液其實養豬業者拿回去加熱以後就可以餵豬可是因為現在我們政策問題以後廚餘不能去餵豬"},{"start":172.842,"end":188.118,"text":"所以它的有機營養液反而變成就像剛剛部長講的它變成沒有用的所以它變成要去找污水處理所以它現在面臨很大的問題成本又提高那還有一個我們污水處理的量能也是問題"},{"start":190,"end":215.801,"text":"跟委員報告其實不只只有他包含桃園的生殖能中心其實他也有這樣的早逸的問題那我們的確是希望能夠來解決那當然農業部陳部長也跟我在討論那他們那邊正在處理在協調當中我們希望可以盡快有一些方案讓這些產業降低他的成本因為是不是資源是不是廢棄物就是在法規的解釋跟認定上面有一個更好的協調"},{"start":217.182,"end":243.339,"text":"所以因為他現在也碰到一個問題因為那時候非洲豬瘟他們為了幫地方政府處理這個廚餘結果這個廚餘它有機營養育又不能拿去養豬又當作汙水處理那所以這部分可能農業部經濟部跟環境部應該要好好的協調一下經濟部處理這個汙水處理廠這個量能他也達不到有時候要迅速處理可能又超標結果他變成"},{"start":245.033,"end":263.801,"text":"幫地方政府處理廚餘結果因為這個污水的濃度太高結果變成它排放出來又被罰錢可是如果它全部要達標可能有一個成本還有它量能上都會有問題所以我說我們現在禁用這廚餘這個技術真的是很好"},{"start":264.261,"end":281.02,"text":"所以就像部長講這個有機營養育真的要好好規劃一下不然明明是可以用的東西本來加熱以後就可以養豬結果現在變成汙水處理成本又提高然後汙水量能又不夠你要如果量能要夠可能"},{"start":281.58,"end":305.865,"text":"它的濃度又達標 超過它的標準又會被罰款所以這部分是不是應該我們跨部份要來研議一下對 我們現在正在處理這個事情也跟委員報告因為最近天氣冷那個火鍋或羊肉爐等等那個油脂特別高所以那個水污染處理的也告訴我說那個都是一層油啊都是我們大家吃的這個油啦其實那個油我覺得都可以再回收再處理的"},{"start":307.025,"end":331.339,"text":"現在的法規上面的認定還有大家的協商還有一些狀況所以我們現在正在努力希望可以解決這個問題所以看起來這個業者讓我們感覺到廚藝你看它可以百分之百的利用所以基本上它不是廢棄物那只是說我們如何用技術去把它變成有用的東西那現在我們因為雖然說還有一年2027才說"},{"start":334.861,"end":360.748,"text":"不用廚餘養豬可是我發現這個政策一宣布之後很多地方政府也在反映其實現在很多養豬業者完全都不收了很多的業者民眾都說現在的廚餘業者以前都會去他們那邊收現在完全開始都不收所以變成他可能知道說往後都不收可能他本來要買珍珠這些設備現在他都不買了因為他知道"},{"start":361.348,"end":376.636,"text":"再過一年 一年多都不能使用所以其實現在 處於地方業者就已經沒有再收了不知道部長知不知道這個情形知道很清楚所以 現在大概跟這個各個縣市環保局 農業局申請這個"},{"start":378.678,"end":393.198,"text":"可以持續徵組的監控的大概已經有100多家了所以基本上我們預估可能會有大概將近一半左右會可能會退場因為農業部給他們變成飼料養豬的這個福利還蠻好的所以基本上未來這個慢慢的確會變少"},{"start":394.099,"end":411.82,"text":"那這段時間這個交接轉換轉型的這個期間就需要大家來努力啦那我們其實一直不斷的在跟協助地方縣市環保局一直在協調這個事情因為有些可能這個團散或是餐廳它無法去去化就會產生一些壓力那目前我們真的在解決這個事情"},{"start":412.481,"end":436.62,"text":"所以廚藝的問題可能不是到2027再處理現在就要面對了但是也跟委員報告其實現在到年底之前我們是有補助費用的然後到了明年之後就會因為1月1號開始可以這個廚藝養豬嘛那還有一年的時間所以我認為壓力會是在明年的年底的時候這個大轉型那個會是另外一波那我們現在就要來準備未來的事情了"},{"start":436.86,"end":463.004,"text":"好 希望我們農業部 環境部 經濟部那部長院是屬於這個中央主管機關這個部分應該趕快跨部會跟我們研議來解決這個問題好 謝謝好 那還有針對我們現在促進資源循環那我們促進資源循環在2024年8月30號我們有成立8加N資源循環的產業聯盟那現在已經滿一年多了"},{"start":463.504,"end":476.825,"text":"那部長那時候你有說產值在2030年的時候要達到3700億元那現在我們環境部在這一部分我們到底是屬於被動還是主動去輔導這個產業鏈的成立的角色"},{"start":479.348,"end":497.418,"text":"鮑委員我們是主動的因為其實剛剛那時候是他們統計的數字那我們最近用德國的方法來算我們台灣的循環經濟現在是去年是1688億循環經濟那我們只佔了我們選擇幾個重點能夠來合作現在大概有10個聯盟了吧我們請署長來說明一下"},{"start":498.747,"end":516.003,"text":"那我們現在在各個聯盟呢分別就主題來這個做一些交換意見包括說法規或者說他們有些在這個循環產品的銷售那一起來共同討論那如果他有些資金問題我們有一個綠綠辦有一個一個資金的一個一個支持"},{"start":516.804,"end":535.129,"text":"所以這個署長應該知道因為我們有共同去參加他們資源回收全國這個大會他們業者也都非常關心我們環境部現在到底針對這個期程然後指標到底要做到什麼程度我們是不是將來是不是一樣要推動資源循環促進法"},{"start":536.114,"end":551.247,"text":"那资源学院推动法对我们要促进这些产业的发展是非常重要的所以希望能够得到大运的支持对 因为这一部分我们回收产业其实我们有一个很关键的就是贵金属资源"},{"start":552.648,"end":579.907,"text":"很多的民间业者我觉得我们环境部应该要推动请他们加入因为他们应该是将来我们关键的贵金属的国家队那我们针对这一部分我希望部长能够明确让我们知道我们要如何推动民间产业成为8加N产业联盟的成员那如何让我们这一部分环境部针对未来这个规划"},{"start":580.808,"end":600.522,"text":"可不可以明確的讓我們知道可不可以提供這些計畫讓我們知道好 委員說的承辦窗口沒有問題我們其實有一個其實這個是整個循環署在推動的事那你剛才說到的這個例如說稀有貴金屬或是重金屬那個貴金屬的一個回收也是我們的主力的要點我們現在就是在密集的在跟"},{"start":601.002,"end":618.82,"text":"一些相關的業者在討論當中那我必須說我們現在是先找幾個很重要的最重要的這個錫櫃金屬櫃氣金屬在討論當中那未來我們會再更開放的來更多人來參與因為這裡面的水很深啦我們會一個一個來掌握這個狀況"},{"start":620.081,"end":638.543,"text":"對 因為現在業者認為說針對廢棄物回收有明確的法令去處理你看針對資源回收他們連這個窗口他們都搞不清楚然後這個法令上好像也不是很明確所以是不是可以盡快針對我們資源回收的部分而且這對我們台灣"},{"start":639.784,"end":667.755,"text":"回收這個貴金屬我覺得也非常的重要所以這部分應該是不是要好好的盡快來規劃是不是有明確的計畫可以提供給我們辦公室好沒有問題謝謝委員好那針對今天我們有針對我們垃圾掩埋的部分那我也想請問一下那部長之前我們有去桃園市考察我了解一下這個進度啦我們當初有去考察楊梅的原本垃圾"},{"start":668.655,"end":683.405,"text":"掩埋廠還有我們觀音寶藏的垃圾掩埋廠那它都是戰制嘛那部長也有講說明年底就會退場那是不是這個部分是不是確定可以如期進行來解決我們地方垃圾掩埋廠的問題"},{"start":684.246,"end":706.165,"text":"好 報告委員桃園的部分他們很積極在面對我也給他們很大的肯定那因為委員那次我們去的時候里長在那邊我也拉著里長的手明年我們一起去看把那個至少沒有裸露的情況我們目前掌握的進度是正如期會完工那也希望明年年底的時候我們這個時候帶那個里長去見證我們一起來見證"},{"start":707.446,"end":730.876,"text":"那明年底退場是整個覆蓋完成覆蓋完成然後那當然桃園的環保局是更積極啦我們我們的標準第一個打包第二個是覆土那他們是可能會更積極來做處理那這個還是要看他們最後的結果但是至少在附近絕對不會有那種聞到味道啊這種蒼蠅一大堆的問題應該會顯著因為地方民眾"},{"start":733.457,"end":760.645,"text":"還是希望都能夠能夠拿去焚化移除焚化處理掉對 但是因為桃園的量還是有一點點緊張桃園的量還是因為桃園的那個那兩個焚化爐它其實剛好平衡而已那它還有事業廢棄物還是有點不大夠所以基本上呢如果說桃園未來還可以更積極的SRF可能等發展得更完整的話我希望速度可以更快好 那希望針對這部分"},{"start":762.406,"end":791.325,"text":"部長有答應說明年底一定要退場所以最基本的部分還是要把它完成對對對我們至少要把附近的居民的生活品質可以變好這是我們所要的目標對啊不然你一些惡臭啊蒼蠅啊什麼完全非常嚴重影響他們的生活是是是好這部分那部長你有講明年底一定都要退場完成我們一起再去考察應該可以很富原狀讓里長開心一點希望明年底我們是去驗收成果是是是好謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":792.346,"end":792.483,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"166431","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166431","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da7590636dee97268a473d03d053df696e011f86697ca1ee740c94bb36baeae8c032c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"12:10:34 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就是說我們差不多一個月前就去日本去參觀假所以我現在也成立一個專案小組針對日本本身它的廚藝的飼料法的部分喔 它的家務廚藝是沒有進來的它用市民的效料料 它有分類 它分就有分類啊它有分類裡面喔 事業的部分是可以進來的"},{"start":263.112,"end":280.351,"text":"他有分擔打 跟分 吉他是肉類 素材 塑膠 吉他所以這是 我們本身本來就是專門要共同來面對嘛這分的東西 不可能沒面對啊我現在是說 你有 你總要去看一看回來自己擔心你自己委託要做機械 還是說"},{"start":285.336,"end":308.357,"text":"交給工研院來跟你合作我告訴你農業部一直在跟工研院在農業方面就有非常多的這些合作所以後續我們也會跟工研院討論有沒有辦法針對這個部分設計那個機組這個部分我想我們會來做本社在這裡請你你跟工研院進行交代你一個月來一個月來"},{"start":310.899,"end":332.176,"text":"你跟工研院的合作意向跟內容跟目標最好要達成的目標這個計劃是不是可以提供的分析可以 我們跟工研院先討論以後會把基本的想法看幾層沒有 我們已經有在接觸但是他們也要時間去設計一個月之內可以提供"},{"start":336.059,"end":340.162,"text":"可以提供到相關的一個規劃第一階段的規劃就可以了"}]}},{"id":"166430","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166430","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906cae03c862223901fe3a1989ac581c2286697ca1ee740c94bddaafb66827a691f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:01:22 - 12:15:59","影片長度":"00:14:37","會議時間":"2025-12-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21 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請部長還有軍備局局長請顧部長 軍備局局長好 部長 局長好我先請教局長請問一下過去RDX是不是都是軍備局自行對外進口的"},{"start":25.595,"end":55.115,"text":"跟委員報告RDS都是我們進口原料由我們軍備局二零一廠自行產製提煉成RDS所以都自行進口那這次為什麼要不是進口原料RDS的原料好RDS原料RDS的原料是一個化學品是一個化學品叫做烏洛脫貧對那由RDS由軍備局來生產好那請問一下這次為什麼要由廠商民間廠商來進口呢"},{"start":56.533,"end":57.98,"text":"因為要為各軍種的"},{"start":60.233,"end":64.996,"text":"不對稱作戰的裝備的需求要擴充產能的關係對 要擴充產能我就採自製跟外購170噸來因應所以今年開始過去都沒有對外採購過第一次第一次採購第一次採購RDX對 RDX那顯然就出現了這樣的一個量身訂做來 那我請問一下"},{"start":87.97,"end":95.391,"text":"好我請問一下那個部長今天你回答媒體的時候你非常不耐煩因為連續爆發的這幾個案件都出現了非常低的資本額但是他們的得標金額都很高那一個就是這個福邁它是1900萬它的得標金額是5.9億另外大石國際資本額3500萬它的得標金額是2億4900萬"},{"start":116.855,"end":128.963,"text":"然後另外一個呢是我今天特別提出的他的得標金額不高但是他的資本額只有少少的10萬元所以部長你認為資本額的高低不重要不在你們國房採購裡面的考慮範圍嗎"},{"start":136.774,"end":148.042,"text":"有關於火藥原物料也就是屬於內購外賣也就是屬於代理的部分我們都是過去20年來都採公開招標的方式辦理廠商的資格都是一致的好 在你們的報告裡面你們說其實你們的標準我看起來極低第一個只要是合法登記的第二個營業項目有國際貿易業還有你有納稅證明三項資格"},{"start":164.514,"end":168.878,"text":"那我先補充一下 剛才你一直強調福邁是過去都有國際貿易業 錯他是去年才新登記國際貿易業他的另外的關西企業 這個賣馬桶的 衛浴設備的他才有國際貿易業 但是來標的是福邁好 那我要問的是 資本額難道不重要嗎"},{"start":188.716,"end":194.519,"text":"資本額難道不重要嗎如果今天你的門檻這麼低難道沒有國安疑慮嗎我們現在看到的這些標案在裡面你們都講說這是有國安相關的機敏的標案但是你們都把資本額不重要部長說我沒有辦法去管他的資本額啊"},{"start":212.868,"end":213.929,"text":"請問一下這沒有國安疑慮嗎有心人士想要來標國防部的標案非常容易啊不知道你知道在國內國內登記有案從事國際貿易業的廠商有多少家嗎"},{"start":228.524,"end":248.844,"text":"你知道嗎 跟委員報告我們查到最早 譬如說過去從100年以來到現在38個標案包括了V炸藥等等的這些所謂的火藥的原物料等等我們所有都採公開招標廠商的資格都是如此"},{"start":249.656,"end":255.424,"text":"那沒有問題都沒有問題過去我要講的比如說中科院有一些標案因為我時間有限這個要素這個要素會有國安疑慮我剛剛講"},{"start":265.598,"end":278.388,"text":"在國內登記為國際貿易業的高達32萬家但是他真正有規模在從事國際貿易業的只有1100家那你剛剛講的福邁我可以告訴你他從110年到113年不知道你知道嗎他進口的金額是多少嗎"},{"start":292.042,"end":319.814,"text":"我想我們零一毛錢都沒有長期他沒有進口任何一個品項只有在今年他開始在標案子標中科院標國防部的案子才出現進口金額所以這個不奇怪嗎這個社會不會質疑嗎然後部長你是法律人喔你是法律人法律人我們就來看法規"},{"start":321.434,"end":340.467,"text":"我們工程會本來就有採購法我們也有相關的一些執法對於政府機關投票廠商的資格特別是那種特殊的還有巨額採購本來就有認定標準啊你們國防部是話外之明嗎來"},{"start":343.018,"end":360.864,"text":"投標廠商資格與特殊或巨額採購的認定標準他起碼要有幾項第一個他必須具有相當的經驗或實績者這個很重要嘛你對於一些這種特殊規格的"},{"start":362.278,"end":372.725,"text":"巨額採購的 你都不要管他 他以前有沒有做過我剛才講這家公司110年到113年就是今年之前他的進口金額是零啊"},{"start":374.266,"end":379.55,"text":"然後你可以讓他標一個5.9億的案子還覺得OK 沒問題啊 合法啊好 來 再來 具有相當人力者人很重要嘛 他有相關的專業的人力嘛或者他有相關的配備我可以告訴你啊 你去查這家服賣公司到今年在爭人才 他還在招募人力啊他招募什麼人力啊他招募的還是室內裝修的人力啊"},{"start":403.666,"end":412.708,"text":"最近不是在講說馬總統時代也有什麼合成衛育也有標國防工程啊合成衛育資本額是多少30億結束30億而且人家有實驗室有實驗室你拿這個 這是什麼呀這是一隻老母雞比那個雞爪嗎"},{"start":432.405,"end":450.263,"text":"這種比喻 再來 具有相當財力者這個很重要囉 具有相當財力者他特別講 他包括失收資本額不能低於招標預算金額的十分之一那當然後面還有 你有什麼會計年度要有什麼樣什麼樣的標準"},{"start":452.346,"end":465.976,"text":"好啦我要問的是如果今天我們政府機關針對這些重要的標案還有這些特殊的標案有國安資格國安一律的標案"},{"start":467.116,"end":494.809,"text":"都有這樣的一個限制這限制是基本的嘛這不是最基本的標準嗎你要有時機我相信你有這個經驗第二個你要有一定的人力我們在講不管RDX HMX它都是 它是化學品 疫爆品最近不是萬海航運在印度萬海就爆炸到現在還在印度"},{"start":495.589,"end":497.049,"text":"萬海沒辦法開啊包含你航運的安排交通的安排 還有我請問你啊請問他把這個一進口是直接送到你軍備局是吧他不需要有倉儲是吧他直接就送到你軍備局所以你們不要那麼扯嘛"},{"start":515.316,"end":520.298,"text":"部長你是法律人這個都是工程會的規定工程會這樣規定你國防部不需要你給我訂一個什麼只要你是有合法登記的啦只要你是什麼有國際貿易的啦只要你有納稅證明你這麼低我告訴你啊還在辦什麼反滲透法有心人士隨便找一家美容美髮業找一家快炒業現在很多都在搞國際貿易啊"},{"start":545.782,"end":553.948,"text":"就可以來標你國防的功臣標你國防機敏的功臣標你國安的功臣你不會被滲透嗎你不會被滲透嗎你們這種標準還好意思拿出來國防部的標準那個主席給我一點點時間"},{"start":567.068,"end":573.57,"text":"委員我可以回答一下 等一下因為這個很重要我請你回去檢討啦不要每次一講就說我們認知作戰你國防部的標案我們不能夠去檢討嗎不能去監督嗎委員不讓我有回答的機會我想這不是一般的詢答方式吧這怎麼不是一般的詢答方式好你講啊請問一下你憑什麼國防的標案它的標準可以這麼低而工程會的標準你告訴都寫在那裡給你看"},{"start":596.827,"end":613.777,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是說這是一個進口的現貨供應那麼進口的現貨供應呢他具有國際貿易的一個代理的資格那對這個合約的控制的手段就在於他必須要取得輸出許可證明這個輸出許可證明遠比你的資本額"},{"start":618.2,"end":635.252,"text":"原理比你的過去的時機都要來的重要因為不論你過去有多少時機不論你資本有多少你沒有辦法拿到輸出許可證明一翻兩瞪眼他沒有辦法履歷有拿許可證明就代表他一定有能力嗎有拿到輸出許可證明才可以往下走廣大的人幫他拿到許可證明才可以往下走"},{"start":640.436,"end":649.537,"text":"那他所以他在投標的時候他就必須要思考他有辦法拿得到輸出許可證明嗎他如果拿不到輸出許可證明他敢來投標嗎"},{"start":653.591,"end":670.107,"text":"他就算投標 我跟你講嘛 我剛才講萬海航運已經有一個在印度外海爆炸的萬海長榮這些陽明海運他們不是不能夠運輸但是他的非常嚴格 尤其"},{"start":670.788,"end":672.789,"text":"剛剛發生所以這第二點第二點就是原廠的製造原廠的製造證明他就要跟這個代理商講好他們要原廠要用專傳然後來運輸然後來抵台"},{"start":686.337,"end":696.103,"text":"他還沒有交易底台之前所有的風險都是由他負擔並不是由我們負擔過去從來沒有做任何進出口過去從來沒有做過任何的軍火然後他到國外說我要進口你們的這個RDX然後他就順利可以取得他的這個輸入特許許可證明你覺得怪不怪"},{"start":710.697,"end":713.778,"text":"你覺得奇不奇怪這麼神奇的事情所有的國際貿易從事國際貿易業者都有這個可能性你如果委員可以去看看我們過去20年來所做的火藥的原物料的購案所獲得的所能夠得標的這個廠商都是從事國際貿易業者你不要再跟我沖扯我剛就跟你講這件事情嘛"},{"start":740.872,"end":746.048,"text":"因為時間的關係 海君等一下簡要回答我只有一件事情 我的要求"},{"start":748.823,"end":770.776,"text":"海昆號 海昆號現在呢 這是媒體爆料那我也相信 應該是跟那個海昆號 他在海撤的時候這個 有參與的人 應該去爆料爆料的意思就是說 我們在經過海撤的時候 出現了故障最後呢 都要用人力操舵 說要人力操舵才逃出來就易壓故障"},{"start":773.858,"end":797.683,"text":"結果媒體去求證台船台船最後告訴大家為了保密跟加緊完成測試以後將不再逐一回應請問一下可以這樣子嗎人命關天的事情這是納稅人這麼多錢的事情台船可以講說我以後不再逐一回應是怎麼樣 要保密三次嗎可以這樣嗎我想先請問跟委員報告"},{"start":802.301,"end":827.906,"text":"那因為的確最近有幾起的這個新聞的這個披露那對整個台船跟整個專業團隊的士氣那影響很大那我想台船也在短時間都說了一個非常比較確確的一個說明那台船現在目前應該是要加強不是未來這種可能危及到這個相關安全的問題人民安全的問題他可以說不再回應嗎可以嗎"},{"start":828.886,"end":833.849,"text":"我只問你可以或不可以我問你們國防部有沒有授權台船可以這樣所以是你授意的所以國防部授意我要求不可以這樣黑箱作業不可以針對這麼重大的這樣的一個有故障而且可能造成人命安全的問題不可以說我從此以後我不再回應"},{"start":859.747,"end":876.066,"text":"這樣是黑箱座也好 部長一句話來我們可以公開的部分我們一定會對外來公開說明對應該守密的事項也會進行守密像這種事情有或沒有要跟外面報告嗎要怎麼改進不能說我從此以後都不再說明好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166405","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166405","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da759069b16a26e070cee4e3d053df696e011f8e8e52b0719441b9716d77fa562bcf7fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:13:07 - 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謝謝"},{"start":24.472,"end":43.304,"text":"部長好上禮拜在質詢這相關議題的時候你那時候是坐著回答今天可以站起來我覺得挺好的那我想說因為上個禮拜我有特別問到一個問題就是說我們禁衛廚餘這個政策的時候決策之前應該有跟環境部有跨部會的一個溝通過對不對"},{"start":44.984,"end":66.532,"text":"我們持續幾乎每個禮拜兩三次一直在溝通不管是在中央應變中心或是醫院部位的交流甚至於在行政院所有的政策擬定之前都有做溝通那因為我上禮拜我問了一個狀態就是說境外廚餘會產生很多的外部成本因為廚餘以前比方說去養豬那現在不能養豬之後的時候那可能會出現"},{"start":68.372,"end":84.659,"text":"轉嫁這些外部成本也許給了環境部也許給了地方政府那我那時候有請那個部長這邊去評估一下我們這外部成本到底有多高那你那時候是跟我講說你要再跟環境部這邊去討論那我不知道已經討論出結果出來了沒有"},{"start":87.398,"end":107.432,"text":"主要的成本就是他如果不再處於養豬的話他會走到的是再利用的管道那再利用的部分就包括堆肥或者是黑水門或者是生殖能源再利用這是一個目標我們就目標很好了我覺得循環經濟很重要那能夠把堆肥去做有效的利用都是好事"},{"start":107.572,"end":134.189,"text":"的事情 不過我覺得在這過程當中我們看到很多的情況跟我們當時政策在想的有點不一樣那我們在想怎麼樣把這個政策把它落實的更為完善 更為優化一點點那我這邊先給你們看一個照片這是讀者投書出來的一個情況就政策其實還沒有正式上路然後沿街都是廚餘桶"},{"start":135.94,"end":164.421,"text":"那這個是發生在屏東的事情可是我相信這事情不會只有一個地方政府發生應該很多地方都會發生這個狀態那我想請教一下你讓我講完一下那我想請教一下這個部分就是說因為當時環境部部長曾經提到說我們每天的廚餘有2115噸公噸那他提到說就是"},{"start":165.031,"end":170.471,"text":"每一頓的處理費用大概是多少錢 可不可以請次長這邊回答一下"},{"start":171.428,"end":196.148,"text":"跟委員報告一下處理跟清運兩個加起來要看你後端使用的是什麼方式去再利用價錢會不一樣那現在業者也看到了這樣的一個商機他們投入之後如果那個再利用量能多的時候自然而然那個價格會下降那麼以目前的現況來看清運費用大概是3000塊是合理的加上處理的費用要看你後端的再利用模式就會不同"},{"start":197.249,"end":212.644,"text":"所以大概會是在2500、3000左右所以總共2500、3000還是處理費用2500、3000清運費用是另外算清運3000塊處理可能是3000多或者是到5000所以才會出現一個5000到8000這包括清運加處理"},{"start":213.064,"end":241.119,"text":"所以8000你覺得是清運加上處理的費用8000塊是夠的對不對所以這樣算起來的狀態的時候大概每一年的狀態大概會在五六十億左右啦所以你覺得這是商機嘛對不對那我再想說因為之前我們曾經有過一個政策其實在2021年的時候那時候也曾經有過一小段時間的時候禁味廚餘所以那時候其實有很多的廠商他們提出"},{"start":241.559,"end":256.165,"text":"要成立真主中心可是呢以屏東為例來說的時候當時有三家要申請結果沒有一家做問題在哪裡我跟委員報告一下真主中心部分待會部長會做說明我先就您這張圖來做說明好嗎好"},{"start":257.085,"end":284.48,"text":"好 這張圖是因為那個業者 餐飲業者他自己要 要洗鹹菜啦 鹹菜那個桶子裡面不是廚餘 是鹹菜 要洗的鹹菜他為了怕人家停車 停在他的門口外面的外牆所以你知道這張圖是怎麼來的是不是知道 環保局已經跟警察局去做起雨地然後確定打開裡面是鹹菜 不是廚餘所以也開了罰單所以說這個部分的時候 坦白說是來自於一個媒體的資料"},{"start":285.521,"end":304.326,"text":"所以譬如說這個媒體又在做不實報導你的意思是這樣子已經更正了已經更正了屏東縣已經更正了OK那我想說如果是這情況的時候那我另外要問一下因為剛剛就是你有特別提到比方說垃圾處理都是水費徵收嘛對不對那廚藥的部分以前也被認為是"},{"start":305.266,"end":317.375,"text":"垃圾的一部分所以都一樣隨水費徵收那如果說現在的時候你提到說讓以輕業者去做處理的時候那我們怎麼樣在垃圾當中的時候把廚餘跟一般的垃圾分開"},{"start":320.097,"end":345.223,"text":"跟委員報告 那個乙清如果他去公寓大廈服務的時候那個公寓大廈的垃圾就不是清潔隊收了嘛 對不對所以他就不用在水會裡面去喊清潔會因為不能收了 那乙清 那個公寓大廈自己就要付錢給乙清那以前的乙清是他把廚藝的部分分類出來或自收物分類出來的部分 他是沒有收錢的所以是整體來說 如果整棟大樓的時候"},{"start":346.263,"end":360.839,"text":"他就是選擇垃圾是自己處理讓以馨處理還是可是現在有些狀態是他只有處理廚餘喔他有些部分他只有處理廚餘垃圾其實還是市政府在做處理你知道這樣的情況嗎"},{"start":362.205,"end":381.795,"text":"像這種情形的時候如果你的垃圾還是給市政府處理的時候市政府就可以說垃圾清理清除處理費用是是應該要繳這個費用的那你的廚餘如果過去是因為有在利用的用途包括你的資源回收物大廈也會產生資源回收物啊他如果交給慈濟或者是民間的一些在利用的系統"},{"start":382.475,"end":405.145,"text":"那個清潔隊也不會幫他收我想請教一下那個次長這邊因為你提到說我們處於後續的一個循環經濟的運用的時候那目前有多少的一個案子是在我們的計畫當中因為這邊全國到時候處於都要由這樣的方式去處理那我們現在有多少的量能夠處理多少的量能這邊有沒有做一個評估"},{"start":405.785,"end":429.106,"text":"跟委員報告我們估計就是在禁止廚藝養豬的時期大概產生的廚藝量是1700多公噸一天1700多公噸那我們目前國內的再利用的量能大概有1100公噸所以事實上是有缺口的所以這段時間為什麼會有混化處理的原因在這個地方在這一年在未來的這一年當中因為看到落日了所以"},{"start":429.605,"end":448.083,"text":"民間的處理業者願意投入再處理再利用這個部分所以堆毀會增加黑水門會增加也開始會有縣市在設這個生殖能源廠所以在兩年之內這個量會平衡OK 兩年之內會平衡嘛是OK 我們希望整個的一個堆肥的那個廚藝的一個處理"},{"start":449.184,"end":475.502,"text":"其實能夠像你剛剛講到包括堆肥包括黑水盟包括我們的循環發電等等的狀態那我們希望真的能夠讓讓那個廚藝能夠真正發揮它給循環經濟當中我想這是一個我們也支持就是禁衛廚藝這樣的一個政策可是要怎麼把它做得更完善我覺得很重要不要變成說當時配合我們農業部政策去做珍珠中心的"},{"start":477.383,"end":505.302,"text":"養豬戶他們現在可能輸了然後可能變成是外部成本落到地方政府他們也輸然後農業部這邊又要給那個養豬戶他們那個就是除以轉為一般飼料的那個補助金額我們希望由這樣的狀態不要變成三輸不要變成三輸而是大家都贏因為整個新政策讓大家都贏那我最後這邊我想問一下部長一件事情"},{"start":506.162,"end":534.1,"text":"就是最近有一個狀態是提到了狂犬病台灣其實很久沒有狂犬病那我想知道一下我們現在整個的狂犬病的一個防疫工作情況怎麼樣為什麼我會特別提到這個狀態因為之前我們看到說狂犬病的狀態大家都在大安溪以南那麼最近開始出現到苗栗這邊有一些相關的案例當然不是人可是是哺乳類動物"},{"start":535.581,"end":542.366,"text":"那我們要怎麼樣子去控制這個狂犬病的一個病毒的擴散可不可以請部長做一個簡單的回應"},{"start":543.703,"end":566.781,"text":"我跟委員報告現在目前狂犬病狗病沒有得到狂犬病這個必須要先聲明的現在目前狂犬病的病毒是感染在幼歡就是這些幼歡那現在擔心的是狗去捕捉了幼歡而感染的部分所以在這裡我想我們第一個部分會針對這些比較靠近山區的這個部分去做家長宣導"},{"start":567.521,"end":582.422,"text":"就是這些狗特別是在流浪犬的部分我們也會加強這些就是管理的部分家犬的部分我們都希望他能夠就是出門的時候第一個打疫苗是一個最重要的你如果打疫苗的時候萬一"},{"start":583.323,"end":609.522,"text":"狗跟那個右彎有接觸的話它也不會被傳染到也不會擴散所以疫苗是一個非常重要的第二個就是管理的部分特別在山區的部分我們會加強相關的一個管理因為我們希望說因為從1958年之後台灣其實就沒有狂犬病死亡的一個案例那我們希望這事情不要被捲土重來所以我們希望針對這部分能夠做一個比較好的一個管控好不好謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":615.939,"end":618.987,"text":"接下來我們請邱志偉委員請做詢答"}]}},{"id":"166404","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166404","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da759065410d0e0295da867908415f8fac51cd3e8e52b0719441b97a4fe3771cb6bf56e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:00:27 - 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請彭部長有請彭部長稍微好稍等一下時間可不可以暫停一下 等一下簡報OK好 部長 首先先看第一張圖我想要請問一下"},{"start":29.315,"end":43.252,"text":"你看這張圖垃圾山你覺得很嚴重嗎這當然嚴重啊很嚴重喔部長你知道這是哪裡嗎這全世界都有很多這樣的地方好那下一頁部長剛剛這個確實不是我國的垃圾山喔"},{"start":44.09,"end":65.558,"text":"可是剛剛那個是印度的垃圾山可是你可以看到我們現在這張圖喔右邊的是竹東垃圾山更確切的說看起來像是一個垃圾瀑布看起來是不是有點相似看起來是不是很觸目驚心是嘛那但是你們今年5月的時候說已經號稱說清理完畢喔但根據環保組織的實際勘察"},{"start":68.459,"end":91.161,"text":"下一頁發現他其實只是縮水了還沒有清理完了那甚至污水還不斷的滲入到頭前溪的流域那新竹市跟竹北市約有60萬的居民的水源當中請問這部分部長是否了解有這個這個我也到現場看過那委員這個部分的話是不是請我們署長來說他的這個"},{"start":93.162,"end":108.159,"text":"相委員報告原來它確實有垃圾瀑布的現象它也是水源區所以竹東廠是我們第一個要解決的當時已經把所有的這些垃圾瀑布都完成清除之後"},{"start":108.559,"end":137.091,"text":"那現在在右邊這張圖是他原來的這一個掩埋場的部分那後來這一個部分我們有要求要完成復必完全清理完成完全復育啦復育完畢要復土對啊那現在呢現在是已經全部清完了嗎這個是要整理好之後復土然後再直升我的意思是說現在所有的垃圾現場已經沒有任何的垃圾嗎"},{"start":137.891,"end":160.903,"text":"他應該是說他會完成護浴不會說完全沒有垃圾但是他在他的掩埋區裡面會有好的設備包含不透水布跟他的污水都會收到他左下角這污水處理廠來做妥善的處理那原則上這個護浴完畢之後那污水就很少會再生出了以上"},{"start":161.303,"end":184.758,"text":"我想要問的事情是水現場是你沒有說完全沒有垃圾是還是有垃圾的 是的還是有垃圾 現在還是有垃圾它是掩埋 這個把它掩埋蓋過去 對但是它的水不會再跑出去就是在那裡讓它 讓它穩定化原則上一個掩埋場的穩定化大概要20年的時間那這20年的時間 它的水不會再出去"},{"start":185.538,"end":199.288,"text":"所以你們現在相關的處置都已經確定好了都已經處置好了好因為部長問這題就是因為你在去年上任的時候其實你對於垃圾山新百岳你也表達說很震驚喔那你承諾剛剛你的報告有講到2026年底會全數解決"},{"start":203.712,"end":226.372,"text":"這部分的目標有沒有改變還是你是有信心提前解決當然必須說我們原先希望年底要到40萬噸現在是變60因為今年的天災特別多所以我們目前呢我們也在跟我們的同仁確認過我說很挑戰啦但是我們還是有信心可以把它完成但是我說委員那個有透過掩埋打包方式能夠不要裸露的露出來這個是我們的目標"},{"start":227.699,"end":248.125,"text":"因為部長你在執行承諾的時候其實你有設立了一個全國裸露堆製垃圾妥善處理監控平台是那貌似能夠讓民眾快速且及時了解進度喔但我們可以看一下這個圖喔你可以看到這個圖說的事情叫做到115年的6月你就會完全的歸零所以你可以提前半年達標嗎"},{"start":249.915,"end":278.476,"text":"而且你退一步來說這個撇除目標線不看喔其實你現在的實際進度實際進度也只有27%多你的實際跟目標曲線離非常的遠所以換句話說每個月要大概要增加45%的目標比例這真的有辦法達到嗎還是說其實你這個頁面是拿出來供參考的樣板而已啊因為我剛才說過就是說原來我們希望是40例如說年底到40但是今年多了20"},{"start":279.477,"end":293.213,"text":"所以60幾所以這個部分我們現在要很努力啦所以部長就是因為看起來這個差距非常大但是你還是信誓旦旦覺得明年可以完成然後你做的這個網頁告訴大家的還是一樣到現在是110你們設定變成115年的6月就可以"},{"start":297.057,"end":314.267,"text":"完成你們的目標耶那部長這個部分究竟是拿出來好看的還是你真的可以達到包委員我剛我的圖裡面有列出來哪些縣市是沒有做到的哪些縣市已經完成的部長這是你整個環境部的目標嘛這個是我們把他的所有的資本把它加起來"},{"start":314.687,"end":337.526,"text":"那的確我們現在大概只有 還有剩下60多萬噸對嘛 那我就是問你說因為你照你們的官方出來的圖你告訴本席的 說是你給國人看到的叫做你115年6月可以完成嘛是是那所以我剛剛不斷的在跟你確認這件事情你是可以提前完成嗎你本來說明年底嘛但是你的網路上面又說出 又看到你是目標就是在"},{"start":338.487,"end":362.103,"text":"明年的六月完成 然後你的實際值又離得這麼遠本席很疑慮 很憂慮啊 我很擔心你根本達不到啊包委員 這個圖是我們跟這個地方政府協調當時我們希望是115年底 但是取乎其喪 得乎其從 我們希望能夠"},{"start":364.852,"end":383.119,"text":"所以你往前設定了半年半年那這個在去年已經把所有12億的經費都已經合下去那很多因為花包的關係花包完成之後它的進度就會相當的快那今年我們還會大概1.2億再補助下去"},{"start":383.379,"end":412.284,"text":"好 所以希望在115年底能夠完成所以部長你們這裡意思就是說你們確定可以明年6月完成啦因為你的網站出現是這樣嘛是 你說發包下去就可以完成了齁是 那請部長信守承諾喔明年的6月第一個我們把各個縣市的環保局局長都一起來我們來共同面對這個問題所以這個基本上是大家一起努力啦那我必須說有一些縣市像我覺得目標跟實際要做到的真的是要一起來努力啦我也相信部長很用心但是"},{"start":412.924,"end":433.09,"text":"你們看起來我看到這個曲線是非常憂心啊所以請你們一定要務實的如果你回答說你們可以做到那本席就在這裡反正記錄下來你們可以做到這樣子是我們會努力我們會努力但是就是說現在當然我必須有一個條件明年拜託不要像今年這麼多的大型的天災多了20萬噸那個就壓力就來了"},{"start":433.51,"end":460.911,"text":"所以這個基本上這個部分是需要也希望委員給我們多一點支持啦好 部長請這個反正加油 一起努力啊看到這樣子希望明年中的時候可以看到真正達標喔部長那我們也都知道如果不從源頭改善的話垃圾跟這些廢棄都很難處理啊那這也是部長的核心主張包含修法加嚴管理還有加重刑責的部分喔可是其實今天你也說到這個法其實很奇怪五月你送到行政院喔"},{"start":461.491,"end":490.678,"text":"那到底什麼時候會出來啊就是後來九月送到行政院後就沒有消息了你們預告完之後所以現在到底什麼時候會出來可不可以給本席一個時間包委員我剛才特別說我們大概十月多正式送行政院那也開了非常多次的會跨部會的去協調那目前的消息是即將我只能說即將即將到底是什麼時候快要了快要了快要了是一月初我是希望如果說拼一下年底或是說到一月初"},{"start":491.078,"end":514.332,"text":"好 所以希望年底 你認為年底拚一下年底可以出來因為最晚1月初會出來對對對 最晚最晚1月初啦目前目前我們的成果還不錯啦但是因為這個要行政院的決定因為部長今年截至12月4號為止全台已經累積至少24起類似垃圾掩埋場跟戰事場發生火警的狀況所以包含台南花蓮澎湖等地方"},{"start":515.834,"end":529.965,"text":"那起火雖然你會說有氣候異常乾燥啦或者是大量廢棄物混合堆製導致發酵啊好然後背後其實主要的原因還是跟垃圾越堆越多嘛去化量能不足啊然後還有這個賞罰不足"},{"start":532.088,"end":557.379,"text":"你說的蘿蔔跟棒子都還沒有上線啊所以你現在立法空窗期越久本席越擔心這樣的事情就越拖越久會造成極大的危害好所以請部長趕快好不好請行政院趕快出來好好謝謝好那下一題我這裡這個部分要請這個我們國防部的軍備局跟國防採購室的傷情綜合處的代表上台好不好"},{"start":560.933,"end":562.074,"text":"部長你可以先休息一下好"},{"start":574.827,"end":592.269,"text":"你好我想要問一下這個RDX這個炸藥是聯合國規範這個0072中class1.1D的高爆炸藥威力是TNT的1.5倍我想請問一下國防部的代表知道這種高危險性的炸藥也是化學品"},{"start":593.05,"end":602.06,"text":"所以即便國防部開了這次的標案也必須要有專業且有經驗的承包商才可能完成那這一次的標案中為何要求僅要求廠商具備國際貿易業這種沒有毫無專門的這個門檻的一般資格"},{"start":611.229,"end":633.512,"text":"那依照政府採購法第36條對於如此高風險的巨額採購為何沒有訂定需具備危險品運輸時機或者是擁有合格防爆倉儲的特定資格就讓一家室內裝修公司得標那國防部是認為 是不是認為說處理這個高爆炸藥跟進口壁紙的專業度是一樣的"},{"start":635.404,"end":650.937,"text":"報委員跟委員說明一下事實上我們在這訂定這個廠商的時候是我們是考量到了以往毀壓類的購案的投標廠商的資格是循網利訂定合法設立或登記的一個證明還有營業項目包含了國際貿易業跟納稅證明等三項的資格並確保廠商具有進出口"},{"start":658.404,"end":668.624,"text":"貨品 供送的能力另外我們為了確保廠商的投標具有誠意的一個參標不是難道你們不會擔心他在運送的過程中造成任何的問題和危險嗎"},{"start":671.235,"end":690.738,"text":"幫委員跟委員報告一下針對廠商得標貨我們會依據經濟部定班的貨品輸入的管理辦法規定辦理限制性的一個貨品的一個輸入的申請獲得進口我想要請問一下這個廠商他有沒有有沒有具備這個危險品運輸的時機或是擁有合格的防爆倉儲"},{"start":692.686,"end":721.657,"text":"跟委員報一下事實上他們在運輸的過程中在陸上運輸的時候都會依據道路安全你沒有回答我的問題啊他有沒有運輸的這種具備危險品運輸的時機或者是擁有合格防暴倉儲的特定資格他有沒有他有沒有這部分的資格或是曾經的這個時機這個在審標的時候是並沒有在那個審標的那你們不覺得你們審標有問題嗎我跟你說啊好再來請交通部的代表你們剛好說運輸嘛好交通部的代表"},{"start":738.597,"end":759.629,"text":"交通部代表跟國防部代表都在台上請問一下交通部的代表根據國際海運危險貨物的章程第一點三章 岸上處理人員是不是需要受過危險品的培訓然後另外是要問一下國防部的代表這個福邁公司內部是不是有持有相關證照的專業人員報告委員 那個"},{"start":764.98,"end":789.772,"text":"在運輸方面來講的話在我們那個貨運廠 貨運城啦還有那個傳播運送業這個接觸相關的危險品的這個貨品的時候他們都要有相關的證照對 很好 需要嘛對不對 需要有相關證照 謝謝交通部所以我問一下國防部的代表這福邁公司內部是不是有持有相關證照的專業人員"},{"start":793.567,"end":810.863,"text":"如果沒有的話他們要如何判讀原廠的安全資料表那要怎麼確保在該批炸藥在海上運輸或港口裝卸的時候符合國際的隔離規範還是國防部覺得看到貨送到就好過程中的公共安全風險全由全民負擔"},{"start":811.824,"end":836.697,"text":"報告委員這個到時候廠商在交貨的時候我們的需求單位就是軍備局的第二領武廠他們會有一個火工專業的檢運人員來全程陪同那把這個東西運送到需求單位去所以這個廠商不需要符合這些東西之後國防部會幫忙處理他只要把貨運進來就好了然後所以認可一個國際貿易的代表只要這個公司符合國際貿易的資格他都可以標到這個表案"},{"start":838.644,"end":863.434,"text":"國防部外表跟你說目前我想同時間外交部 貴交國防委員會這個他們也應該也會針對此事做檢討但是相信標案的爭議性的細節會有更深入的探討但本席在這裡是要針對這樣的做法會對於環境跟人民產生公共安全危險提出質疑尤其最近什麼貝魯特大爆炸 天津大爆炸等等的案件陰間不遠"},{"start":864.514,"end":885.806,"text":"我希望國防部不論基於什麼原因做這種不合理的操作不能夠放棄對於公共安全的重視否則你在那邊採購武器說要保護人民會不會就讓國人根本沒有為盟其利先受其害請你們回去我請那個環境部部長上台一下"},{"start":889.986,"end":904.449,"text":"部長 這個RDX也是環山亞甲基酸硝胺那它在美國國家環境保護局被列為C級的致癌物也就是強效的神經毒素它對於地下水的污染也極其嚴重"},{"start":905.47,"end":924.288,"text":"那這一次的採購是由民間的室內裝修公司進口他也不是軍方直接運輸我想要請問一下化學署這批劇毒化學品進入台灣環境部有沒有掌握那他是不是有在我們毒性及關注的化學物質的列管名單中"},{"start":926.683,"end":946.821,"text":"這裡跟委員報告有關這個環山亞甲基三硝胺目前不是我們環境部所列管的毒性極關注化學物質所以沒有的話 目前沒有沒有的話那環境部是不是要長期放任這種軍用的毒物在民間隨意存放流竄而毫無監管呢"},{"start":948.403,"end":962.825,"text":"這個部分還是要由國防部因為其實在我們的一個獨管法的一個範疇裡面大概比較偏重的是管這些工業跟民生的相關的這一些的物質或者是這些物品好了所以這個時候就發生問題喔"},{"start":963.926,"end":986.487,"text":"這時候就發生問題了如果RDX在陸運的過程中發生這個犯覆啊 洩漏啊 它的毒性會迅速穿透土壤 污染 地下水那請問你們有沒有需要去跟國防部溝通喔在運輸的過程中有沒有什麼通報機制會告訴環境部然後如果針對這個RDX的洩漏處理有沒有標準作業流程"},{"start":987.248,"end":1014.265,"text":"那再者就是如果消防員不知道這是水溶性的毒物而且大量涉水的時候他會造成周邊的環境跟水源永久的污染請問誰要負責如果只能夠追蹤到追責到這個福邁公司的話這個公司的規模可以負個起完全負擔起這個賠償嗎本席剛剛問到現在就是這個問題請問對兩位點頭你們覺得是不是應該去跟國防部溝通你們現在是不是沒有這個機制"},{"start":1016.366,"end":1043.193,"text":"那個跟委員報告那如果真的是發生了這一些事情那當然其實相關政府部門相關的各個部會的通報的機制就會來啟動不會啊你現在就沒有啊因為他如果對啊你如果運輸的過程中如果他已經傾倒你們都不知道他運輸了那發生了這個外洩難道他會這個那個當下趕快告訴你啟動嗎跟委員報告我剛剛說的是他不是目前讀管法的公告的"},{"start":1043.473,"end":1071.29,"text":"所以他現在不是嘛所以我才說因為不是所以如果現在不是你們又沒有去做這件事未來發生的這個狀況的話那你們要怎麼怎麼做管理跟委員報告以目前的機制來講即便他不是在政府部門有這樣的災害在在發生的時候都會進行相關單位的這一些的通報所以其實大家彼此之間都會有這些資訊上面的一個一個大家的交流"},{"start":1071.69,"end":1088.663,"text":"好所以你的意思是說我剛剛說如果發生這個狀況現場消防員到現場他一定會知道他是水溶性的毒物然後就不大量涉水你可以確保這件事跟委員報告這個部分是這樣因為這個RDX我們有一個那個資訊中心化學物質的資訊中心"},{"start":1091.485,"end":1107.155,"text":"這個資訊中心它通報之後就會立即的去把這個物質的這些物性跟化性的資料都把它抓出來然後我們就會透過我們的相關的群組跟我們的系統去通報所以換句話說你認為這個部分的洩漏處理是有作業標準的"},{"start":1108.395,"end":1127.083,"text":"有SOP的相關的化學物質的我們的諮詢後面的這一些的一個諮詢可是你剛剛沒有列管那個你說的那個部分那個中心還是會有管理到這個RTX是 還會有還是會有今天有列管的情形是他有這個責任如果有我們有公告的話他有這個責任從源頭那運輸"},{"start":1130.424,"end":1144.64,"text":"以及後面的這一些的一個去向全部都要在我們的法定的系統在我們環境部的法定系統裡面去做申報所以現在他這個有申報嗎這個沒有因為他不是我們的公告的"},{"start":1145.501,"end":1167.187,"text":"跟部長說其實根據毒物跟化學物質局發布RDX相關的宣導資料美國多個軍事基地都有受到RDX的污染例如什麼朱利業軍事彈藥廠啊它是經典案例那該廠呢因為長期製造保含RDX內的彈藥導致周邊的土壤跟地下水嚴重污染"},{"start":1167.887,"end":1194.105,"text":"那美國環保署也在1995年的5月把它列為超級基金長職要進行整治耗時了13年才完全復育那既然這批原料將就是長期在這個可能台灣的國內的冰工廠使用環境部就應該要針對這個部分去做相關的配套包含著有沒有要去檢查說這個部如果儲存RDX附近"},{"start":1194.545,"end":1222.273,"text":"它周邊的地下水土壤是不是要進行這些的調查或是背景值的調查部長我要提醒你們的是這個事情好 所以目前這個RDX主要被視為爆炸物是受經濟部的事業用的爆炸物的管理條例或者是國防部的法規管理但是它的毒性特質完全符合要關注化學物質的定義所以這部分環境部已經公告數百種的關注化學物質但是對於RDX這種"},{"start":1224.193,"end":1249.649,"text":"軍用的為主的物質喔都被你們都會說那是屬於國防部的權責沒有納入民視的環保監控的體系裡面所以這其實是有問題的也有危險存在的對於民間請環境部長去做跨部會的溝通好嗎好謝謝委員我們這個我們來研議一下因為我也去了解一下美國環保署如何處理這個問題好我們來研議一下謝謝謝謝廖委長 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有關RDS海嫂根的炸藥標案剛剛其實也是討論得非常的多那得標廠商的背景如何又如何這個我在想剛剛部長還有國防部這兩天都解釋得非常的多就像部長所講的我們真的不要畫錯這個重點重點在後面他能不能禮約"},{"start":31.934,"end":52.871,"text":"那當然本席還是有幾個問題想要就教部長就是延續剛剛陳俊宇委員的這個議題確實是我們都有看到一份報導我們說他有提到就是說有一份報導前兩天然後就提到就是說我們軍方是數十年來首次對外招標採購RDX炸藥是這樣子嗎 我們第一次嗎"},{"start":58.99,"end":60.734,"text":"我的了解是 我們第一次對外採購RDS"},{"start":62.58,"end":86.906,"text":"我們確實是第一次對 因為我們軍備局本來就有一定的產能我想我們這邊也不宜多說我們這些產能但是我們現在要擴大這個需求這些擴大需求所以我們要去做商情的一個探討確定國內沒有自製的產能的情況之下我們一定要透過國際貿易商來去向內購外貨所以"},{"start":90.595,"end":116.812,"text":"就會就跟過去一樣我剛剛已經講了過去20年來有關這樣子的一種火藥原物料內購外貨它的對這個所有投票資格都是一致的我們這一次跟以前20年來都沒有任何的改變沒有任何改變那我們也都是公開招標那我想這個部分要跟國人做一個清楚的報告那也就剛剛委員所講的那真正的重點是在於他會來參標那就"},{"start":119.42,"end":136.294,"text":"就要看他後面的履約他是不是能夠做得到他做不到真的是一翻兩瞪眼他拿不到錢還要被沒收履約保證金還要停權所以他當然他都需要有把握所以我們過去20年來都是如此在進行"},{"start":137.225,"end":155.252,"text":"是 所以部長您的說法就是其實是跟這媒體其實所報導其實是有吻合的他說因為說實在的這RDS它也不是新的這個炸藥原料其實早在第一次世界大戰以前它就已經合成製作了然後到二次大戰的時候才會被大量才開始大量的這個生產"},{"start":156.112,"end":169.595,"text":"所以他用的用途呢是用在這樣這個雷管火箭跟穿甲彈等等用途所以我在想說我們絕對不是第一次有這樣子的需求所以我有看到報導上就想說這數十年來我們第一次採購這個RDS那表示說像過去幾十年來我們一定有這樣子的需求這表示說我們這個我們其實軍備局這裡一直都有能力來做生產只是說現在是量能"},{"start":183.519,"end":195.44,"text":"不足的問題所以必須要對外採購是這樣子的說法就是軍備局有一定的產製的量人當我們現在有這樣子的一個需求"},{"start":197.635,"end":222.997,"text":"那產能沒有辦法滿足的情況之下我們就要規劃自製跟採購來並行是 我再請教一下 部長因為你剛剛在那個像這個人您的專題報告裡面您有提到就是說我們採購以前一定會辦理公開徵求國內的這個商源嘛那也就表示說那我們會確認國內廠商人 物 火 藥 原物 料 產 質 能量"},{"start":223.878,"end":241.655,"text":"像這個部分的話其實在國內沒有任何一個廠商有這個能力來製作嗎還是說因為礙於法規的關係所以並沒有辦法產生一個供應鏈我想請教這個部分法規是一個很重大的障礙是因為我們的要"},{"start":243.417,"end":247.479,"text":"要通得過這個槍炮彈藥卸管制條例要取得內政部的這個許可才可以製造這些所以這個法律還沒有法規還沒有鬆綁以前或者是表示說我們絕對不會有所謂的國內廠商只要軍備局205廠這邊沒有辦法產生這個量能的話勢必一定要這個從國外購入嘛"},{"start":267.671,"end":282.652,"text":"像這個部分的話我們有想說往後我們要做政策的這個鬆綁或是法律的鬆綁能夠培植國內的廠商來製作嗎我們有這個方向跟想法嗎這個政策上的一個大方向會"},{"start":284.406,"end":311.304,"text":"會是一個非常重大的一個因為我們現在是有關於非這一個主要的這個製程的部分我們可以透過國防部來跟我們的民間廠商來協力但是我們如果主要的這一個能夠組成這個槍砲彈藥的主要的部分包括炸藥等等的我想要開放我們國內的廠商能夠自製這個我想會涉及到"},{"start":313.199,"end":336.915,"text":"很多我想很多不同的看法因為我們畢竟現在都是沒有讓民間擁有任何的槍支彈藥然後能夠生產這些火工的部件所以這個可能是一個是一個非常一直有高度這個政治性要決定的問題因為我們到現在為止應該是沒有開放給民間"},{"start":338.296,"end":361.75,"text":"因為我們現在礙於法規的關係沒有辦法開放給民間那當然我在報導裡面也有看到就同一個報導他說我們原有的RDS炸藥生產機具已經老舊了所以導致產量受限是因為機具老舊的關係呢還是因為需求增加的關係這個部分呢這部分如果說我們又把它拉回到軍備級這邊來講的話我們要如何克服這些困難本委員報告我們的裝備"},{"start":365.731,"end":389.13,"text":"沒有什麼老舊沒辦法生產我們的量能我現在不能透露我們的量能也是蠻大的可是明後年不對稱作戰的裝備需求更大所以我才要去外國都是每年由原廠碧亞採公司我們都是用合約請他們來做全線的保養維修訂根件 訂檢件 該換的都換這條線目前產能都是沒問題的"},{"start":394.154,"end":412.326,"text":"對,因為我有看到,其實他們有看到你們到去年為止還有招標維修生產控制系統,所以就表示說其實這一直都有在生產、在產值當中,只是說就是量能的關係,所以不得不外購。OK,那再來接下來的這個議題,其實呢,我想本來是想要討論這個鈍感彈藥的這個發展,"},{"start":415.208,"end":418.55,"text":"可是這樣聽一聽說實在這個發展可能也會受限於一些法規的關係所以可能這部分這條路可能還有很長的一條路我在想像我們都看到其實有很多國家在國際上都將這個鈍感彈藥視為這個防止這個彈藥庫呢殉爆或提升後勤安全的一個基本的這個要求其實我們在數據上上面也有看到像過去的話國際上來講其實也因為這個彈藥庫這個爆炸造成很"},{"start":442.765,"end":466.722,"text":"很重大的這個死傷 那我們國內也是一樣所以很多國家其實它有朝向就是說要發展這個鈍感彈藥 可是剛剛我們看到當然我們看軍備局的回答就是說其實雖然是我們的軍工產業是很成熟的 可是可能礙於一些法令 所以我們沒有辦法跟民間業者 國內的這個業者來合作 所以很多中小企業現在沒有辦法投入彈藥研發跟生產 所以國內的產業鏈是無法"},{"start":469.524,"end":484.803,"text":"就表示說我們這個鈍感彈藥的發展可能會遠遠落後像美國、中國跟北約這些國家所以像這部分的話我們未來是要怎麼樣來做推進跟委員報告我們國軍的鈍感炸藥"},{"start":486.158,"end":514.158,"text":"都是跟美軍同步的都是MILO的我們美軍什麼標準我們就什麼標準我們都是依這個標準來所以我們國軍的標準就是美軍的標準第二個我們剛剛看好那麼多的一個RDS它就是所有鈍感彈藥的原料所以我們也是依照MILO的標準然後來設置這個RDSRDS就是所有鈍感炸藥的原料"},{"start":514.858,"end":530.053,"text":"他可以做C4他可以做A5他可以做B炸藥各有不同但是所有的彈藥都叫做鈍感炸藥鈍感度越低他就越安全鈍感度越高比如說像雷管他就是比較不安定的以上報告"},{"start":530.808,"end":555.715,"text":"OK 所以其實我們還是有在發展 但是我有看這些數據 確實是有啦只是說 國內其實有些學者也在探討這個說 其實跟其他的國家來講 像美國啦 中國其實他們在這方面的研究 在這方面研發 其實比起 台灣其實是落後了很多因為我也看到 像先前的話 像我們國防部自己本身出的這個記刊 裡面也在檢討這個"},{"start":559.736,"end":575.924,"text":"所以在想說我們如何減少一些訓誕的一些這個狀況發生減少一些傷亡所以這個部分這個方向也許是大家可能是要要來研究的這個方向就是跟委員報告第一個當然就是說我們現在還是只有軍備局"},{"start":578.085,"end":603.8,"text":"我們軍備局會來擴張產線這是第一點第二點美軍後續開發新型的盾管炸藥我們會藉台美交流的時機我們來爭取既轉合作現在目前就是這樣所以現在的話我們要提到說要下放到民間企業這是不可能的事情一切都是會都在後在軍備局這裡好 了解好 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166402","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166402","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da759068da634a30c47b46c3d053df696e011f8e8e52b0719441b97a44ad80bc68501425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:03:02 - 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116年116年前面禁止吃養豬這沒問題啊好我的是建議以後這個書書面報告要把它其實是一開始就要寫清楚了不是農業部那個環境部的我也是要看到第五頁我要看到第五頁才知道"},{"start":149.836,"end":176.576,"text":"看到第五页才知道原来是116年1月1日除以前面禁止养猪所以这个部分很清楚光这个就那一般民众一般养猪业者就很困难了好我先请教一下这个部长在过去在过去几年"},{"start":178.228,"end":207.387,"text":"哪些縣市是就是前面禁止除以養豬的哪些縣市如果有的話是雲林台東花蓮金門嘉義連江台北市基隆市跟澎湖縣好所以在台灣已經有這麼多的縣市在前面禁止除以養豬"},{"start":209.235,"end":231.895,"text":"所以其他的縣市要前面也要禁止的話那就去了解他們過去是怎麼去從開始要禁止的前置階段是怎麼去因應怎麼去處理就參考他們的模式做法然後去執行現在"},{"start":234.578,"end":246.145,"text":"要到116要前面禁止養豬這個過程有做參考嗎我跟委員報告您講的非常好就是其實"},{"start":247.475,"end":276.526,"text":"除以養豬再利用許可是由地方政府發的所以地方政府他可以隨時公告他禁止除以養豬那中央只是綠定最後的一個期限在這個期限之前地方政府會根據地方政府本身的客觀的一個環境來決定他怎麼去做相關的一個處理那個部長你說的也沒有錯但是因為這個政策"},{"start":278.075,"end":304.486,"text":"刚才讲的那几个县市他们个别的县市做了这样的决定他们在做这个决定的时候他们会考量他们的实际的量能或者是实际的这些环保单位这个相关的这些设施他们去决定他们的时间要多长然后怎么去辅导"},{"start":305.267,"end":333.88,"text":"那現在是因為是由中央來決定時間是決定所以這個農業部跟環境部就要共同的去跟這些縣市來討論有討論過嗎我想我們中央持續的在協助地方在執行不管是在廚藝的轉型或者是在環境部負責的這些清運的處理我們中央都一直在協助地方政府"},{"start":334.81,"end":358.075,"text":"但是我要跟委員說明的就是所有的廚餘本身的相關的執行面的部分都是地方政府在執行的沒錯這是事實他們是執行對我們中央會來協助就是說相關的像廚餘養豬的部分你剛才說的有一些縣市本身他沒有廚餘養豬那一個非常重要的是他本身就沒有廚餘養豬戶或者是非常少"},{"start":358.875,"end":383.295,"text":"包括這次在防疫的期間裡面就有四五個縣市政府也宣布說他要禁止廚藝養豬但是有些縣市他講了這句話以後他可能後面可能看到廚藝養豬的實際的情況他又覺得說應該可以延一年所以這個部分我想我們持續再跟地方政府再溝通再協調這個我個人是支持啦支持這個禁止廚藝養豬啦"},{"start":385.854,"end":415.205,"text":"这个我小时候就是这个我们家在部落的家跟在山上这个农田的家那个户都有养猪了我们都是用那个都是用植物啊这个都是用植物都是那个我们那个阿美族的话不方便在这边讲所以这个部分其实是"},{"start":416.482,"end":445.304,"text":"要朝这个方向那既然定了这个时间就要想办法去协助这些地方政府来去无论是环保的跟农业的这个共同的来去推动好这个环境部次长就请回座那接下来我还是要回到灾期上次有跟这个部长有提到"},{"start":448.896,"end":473.224,"text":"這個這樣的一個因為現在已經從9月23號10月23號11月23號12月了兩個多月了所以一直存在這個部分然後你們又沒有好好的去說明這個鄉親也說誤解我們就一直罵縣政府我們去說明也沒有用我的意思是說"},{"start":474.724,"end":494.786,"text":"你們要對光復的鄉親不是只有針對這個不是只有針對這個所有錢人不是只有針對這個農田的所有錢人你要讓整個光復鄉瞭解說你們打算怎麼做"},{"start":496.121,"end":506.69,"text":"对不对 不然一直骂县政府就叫县长去挖就如同之前叫我去马太安西医院社府的八爹要我去挖一样所以这个部分"},{"start":508.384,"end":532.832,"text":"我也請你們提供這些資料你們也做了說明但是光我知道沒有用啊所以你們要讓光復的鄉民知道我跟委員報告其實我們開了五場的說明會而且是在光復對 而不是只針對農民所有的鄉親都有參加第二個部分我們也發了很多問卷也大概收了六成左右所以這個部分其實以"},{"start":534.152,"end":551.957,"text":"農業部的立場我們一定會積極的協助那個說明會都是只有主要是佛祖街那一帶的鄉親沒有 我們五個地區不是只有佛祖街的喔不是 你們在其他地方是談別的我了解你們在其他的"},{"start":552.959,"end":569.33,"text":"我們沒有別的事可以談 就是農地復原啊就是農地復原的事情而已啊部長 我們不是去爭論 我只是請你請你我沒有談別的 我就是談農地復原啊你要用書面 不用發什麼討論啊你用書面讓光復鄉的鄉親 書面就發給他們說你們打算這麼做 好不好我們也問了問卷啊 對"},{"start":577.243,"end":597.444,"text":"我們很簡單就是你寫個你把這些書面的就發給不會發什麼錢嘛好不好問件是另外的你問件不可能每一個不需要問每個鄉民嘛你問件當然是針對農田所有人嘛對農地所有錢人嘛好不好了解好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166401","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166401","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906730cd5ee96d696bbe3a1989ac581c228e8e52b0719441b97b99eda9eaf2fc55b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:57:23 - 10:08:54","影片長度":"00:11:31","會議時間":"2025-12-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21 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謝謝召委 我們有請顧部長請顧部長好 部長早"},{"start":12.985,"end":35.132,"text":"部長 針對目前大家所討論的這個軍備局205廠RDX海草根的這個火藥採購案那決標金額因為達到5.9億那也由於這個採購的項目是受到嚴格的管控的戰略物資那有人質疑說得標的廠商因為背景比較單薄會不會產生什麼樣的一個弊端"},{"start":35.872,"end":62.765,"text":"那部長您也在第一時間有出面做出了回應後續也看到國安部有進一步的這個說明那在這次的這個專報當中也針對廠商的這個資格標準資格審認的做法以及履約的管制作為等等有相關的解釋但是在這個輿論上針對採購專業和國安的疑慮仍然有相當多的這個臆測和解讀"},{"start":64.266,"end":81.615,"text":"那我想也藉由這次的巡打機會是不是請我們國安部針對疑點能夠盡可能的來釐清首先在這個報告當中那也有提到火藥的原物料受限於各國這個產量有限以及地緣政治的影響"},{"start":82.475,"end":110.656,"text":"那製造國往往優先滿足自身的一個需求加上嚴格的這個輸出管制導致供貨非常的不穩定表示說在這個原物料的供需上可能存在著失衡的一個狀況那如果國內廠商沒有這個產製能量也就必須在這個採購法的規範中來採取廣增商源的一個策略"},{"start":111.617,"end":140.38,"text":"確保我們彈藥武器的生產不中斷那我想先請教部長目前在這個國際間火藥的原物料取得有多困難那國防部在新聞稿當中又特別提到因為這個台灣在國際社會面對特殊的環境一旦商源開發受到惡意的這個破壞干擾採購將更加的困難那這樣的情況有沒有辦法可以避免"},{"start":142.756,"end":151.613,"text":"所以我想第一點我還是再特別強調就是說我們就是要廣增商源"},{"start":153.243,"end":181.577,"text":"我們的把關是在後面的履約的部分是那所以重點就是他能不能夠完成這個構案這個才是我們的重點嘛所以他要能夠拿到這一個當地政府的輸出許可的證明文件拿到原廠的證明文件而且這個品質是能夠經得起我們檢驗的這就是整個案子標案的一個重點這也才是話對重點那我們"},{"start":182.954,"end":208.9,"text":"過去 我要強調的是我們過去20年來過去20年來我們去統計的所有相關這些火料原物料的採購案都是如此 都是公開招標然後他訂的當然你要有公司你要有納稅證明其他另外一個條件就是你能夠從事國際貿易業所以你能夠從事國際貿易業的業務項目那你能夠拿到這個相關的這些"},{"start":210.441,"end":239.387,"text":"我們認為其實取得不易的當地政府的輸出許可的證明文件那他才會願意來進行參標啊那所以你訂定任何其他的資格或者你去計較這公司的名稱這個什麼資本額這個其實在我看來對於他日後能不能履約這件事情沒有相關性 沒有相關性"},{"start":240.731,"end":264.629,"text":"也就是他有辦法取得政府的輸出許可有辦法拿到原廠的證明有辦法從原廠拿到貨然後原廠願意承擔所有相關這些運送的包括要有專傳然後要有保險等等這些那運抵之後那能夠交貨那我們才會付錢"},{"start":266.601,"end":291.856,"text":"沒有辦法交得了貨我們不會付錢而且他還要承擔履約保證金被沒收他還要被停權所以我們認為整個的觀念就在於履約這個過程上面的一個嚴格的一個監督控管然後我們廣徵這一個商源讓大家都能夠有能力的人都能夠來參與"},{"start":293.693,"end":308.893,"text":"這也是我們針對投標廠商的一個這個審認的一個標準那也應該沒有廠商說來投標說他上面是標註他是這個火藥的這個供應商應該是沒有這種廠商"},{"start":309.784,"end":332.053,"text":"我們就是他能夠有國際貿易他能夠有一個代理的資格因為國內沒有自製產能那要從外面採購進來那他只要有從事國際貿易他能夠拿到我剛剛講的這些重要的這些許可的文件然後他能夠拿到貨這才是重點"},{"start":334.541,"end":362.48,"text":"我們國軍對於這個生產炸藥的資訊是相對的保密不過有其他的報宅指出我們在數十年前大概在1980年左右我們203兵工廠就曾經建立RDS炸藥的一個生產線並且在近年來205廠也曾經多次招標生產控制系統的違保案以維持RDS炸藥的一個生產"},{"start":363.94,"end":376.785,"text":"那我想再請教部長針對我們所需要的這個炸藥國軍是否有自製的一個量能那是因為什麼樣的一個需求或原因才有必要對外採購RDS炸藥跟委員報告"},{"start":378.806,"end":398.112,"text":"為了因應各式彈藥火炸藥的需求我們在民國63年就已經依照了美軍MILO STANDARD海藻根的一個標準由瑞士碧雅材原廠計轉設置產線迄今原廠實施維護保養目前都均為妥善的運用那這次為什麼會在"},{"start":399.881,"end":429.325,"text":"外購是因應軍種未來不對稱作戰裝備的需求的量增加現有的廠人無法滿足我們超前部署然後自製以採購來並行所以這次買了170噸的一個海藻根我們後續會編列相關的預算我們會來擴限擴限完成之後我們就是自己來提煉達到國防自主跟滿足我們耳後所有武器裝備生產的需求 以上報告"},{"start":431.47,"end":431.851,"text":"部長還要補充嗎 沒有"},{"start":435.424,"end":462.487,"text":"我想另外對於這個炸藥的一個籌貨如果我們國內有自主生產的一個潛力那也應該考慮到投入更多的資源來強化我們國防自主的這個能力我想針對國內研發炸藥的這個項目這個議題 來 何部長您再做討論去年曾經有報載內容指出那國軍已經成功研製出CL20的一個炸藥"},{"start":463.248,"end":482.258,"text":"那它的這個爆炸效能和威力比現有的炸藥大概高出40%的部分過往這個包括美國中國甚至這個俄羅斯都有進行製造製作和運用那我們今年也有看到"},{"start":483.278,"end":499.627,"text":"快騎無人攻擊艇搭載CL20的炸藥的這個消息如果能夠結合各式的武器使用那對於國軍的戰力相當有所提升那我想請教部長有關CL20的炸藥我們目前生產"},{"start":501.168,"end":514.916,"text":"這個生產線的量能進度為何那生產的成本是否能夠再降低後續應用的這種各式國造的飛彈或無人載具有什麼樣的一個規劃可以做連結那"},{"start":516.497,"end":535.248,"text":"目前這個組織單位應該是中科院好 那針對這個部分部長或是我們院長是不是可公開的部分可以做簡要的說明是 第一個就是因為CL20的技術已經列入國家關鍵核心技術所以它的量能的部分我這邊沒辦法做很具體的描述"},{"start":535.828,"end":549.744,"text":"第二個就是有關它的產製的效益和那個價格的問題我們現在已經把CL20的前驅物質跟國內的化工廠商做合作前驅物質不牽涉危險性的部分都交給國內的廠商來做"},{"start":550.985,"end":566.241,"text":"後面要精煉的部分再由我們來執行所以它的價格已經比當時在實驗階段降低了一半以上降低一半是但是CL20因為在國際上大家都是一個很保密的技術也沒有公開的售價所以我們也沒有辦法去評斷說這個售價它的競爭力和標準"},{"start":569.665,"end":596.079,"text":"那至於未來運用的規劃部分沒有錯就是我們今年在快騎艇的公開展演上我們的確用了CL20炸藥進去來增加它的爆炸的威能那另外就是未來我們目前初步規劃就是CL20主要運用會在所有國軍自製的無人載具上面包含無人艇無人機只要攻擊型的無人載具我們盡量都把它裝上這種比較高能的炸藥來發揮它的攻擊戰力好"},{"start":599.639,"end":617.636,"text":"那這個火藥原物料的取得是否順利對於我們軍備的一個量能還有戰力的一個建構都有相當程度的一個影響那我也請國防部務必要以最高的標準嚴格把關那不論是透過採購或是我們自主的研發"},{"start":618.797,"end":647.684,"text":"都盡最大的這個努力來籌獲我們相關的一個戰略物資也藉由這次的事件來檢視未來我們怎樣來強化軍備的採購審查相關的一個規範不但能夠找到合法合規有專業乘坐能力的相關廠商同時取得在社會大眾信任的基礎上這也是需要持續精進的一個部分那這一部分我就請我們部長跟相關部委"},{"start":648.444,"end":671.89,"text":"我想簡單報告兩點第一點就是說我們身處特殊的國際環境剛剛陳委員也提到了我們其實原物料來源取得不易我們希望大家都能夠讓我們的火藥原物料來源不要因此而斷裂所以在這裡還是希望大家一起來"},{"start":674.812,"end":689.028,"text":"這個支持我們的這些建軍備戰的這所需要的火藥原物料那第二個當然就是說我們國防部都是經得起公開監督檢視好 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謝謝主席有請彭部長王偉豪部長好今天排這個題目看起來真的垃圾不分藍綠白大家還要共同來關心我們也了解垃圾一直都是台灣民眾非常非常關心的問題那也經過您這兩年來大力的希望能夠透過各種的"},{"start":34.505,"end":50.356,"text":"不管是好的方法或者是好的思維來解決民眾每天要製造可是又希望能夠透過政府部門努力來解決這樣的困難這邊就有三個部分議題要跟部長來討論"},{"start":51.577,"end":67.466,"text":"第一個就是有關於各縣市在裸露堆積垃圾處理的進度第二個部分資源循環跟廢棄物管理的預算是不是有在討整的空間第三個就是強化源頭減量跟資源循環的政策"},{"start":68.286,"end":93.448,"text":"那有關於今天的重點之一就是各縣市這些裸露堆積垃圾的處理進度剛剛很多委員也都非常非常的關心剛剛劉委員也提到部長那個時候有跟各個地方的環保局長宣示在115年的時候就要把這個裸露垃圾做一個完整的處理或至少要達到一定的目標這個是大家非常關心的"},{"start":94.088,"end":115.155,"text":"早上口頭報告裡面部長也提到目前53座的這個裸露垃圾場已經從53場減了20座只剩下33場那在佔滯量的部分呢從84噸減到60萬噸左右已經雖然預計40萬噸的目標還有一段距離可是至少又在努力的處理當中"},{"start":116.095,"end":130.495,"text":"可是我們看到的報告好像又不太一樣這個是我們今年11月30號的數據就是來自這個貴部的環境管理署看到其實目標達成率是27.6"},{"start":133.358,"end":161.349,"text":"顯然是有一些落差這個落差裡面我們比較關心的就是好像各個縣市又不太一樣我們也知道垃圾處理其實是地方主管機關需要努力來達成的目標可是有一些縣市可能也剛好今年有一些風災或相關的這些自然災害造成了影響像台南市或者是像花蓮縣目前的達成率好像都掛零"},{"start":162.269,"end":175.942,"text":"台中市也是有同樣的掛零的狀況那當然也有一些縣市做得非常好包括像屏東縣市100%還有澎湖縣有大達95%那到底為什麼會有這樣的落差是"},{"start":177.643,"end":192.083,"text":"出現了哪一些的相關的問題因為事實上當初各縣市的這些衛生主管的局長們也都有共同來開會那這個落差的情形是會造成目前這個狀況是不是有哪一些問題"},{"start":193.064,"end":208.986,"text":"那中央如何能夠進一步來督導協助這部分特別請部長說明好 謝謝委員第一個是像花蓮 台南 台中台中是本身的問題就壓力就很大它的焚化爐其實整個去化然後我所了解的他們的"},{"start":209.606,"end":233.495,"text":"垃圾佔滯的量比我們想像中看到的數據還要多很多那台南的是因為風災那兩個縣市沒有問題很努力積極就是屏東然後嘉義市這兩個已經沒有露天裸露的那當然啦現在的情況是說因為我們現在也把錢都下去了然後他們也跟我們承諾未來這幾個月會加速的發包來弄所以"},{"start":233.935,"end":258.735,"text":"裸露的部分應該我希望是可以有一個進度啦但是因為多了這個20萬噸因為本來是今年要41萬噸年底要41萬噸但是多了20萬噸就是這個天災多了15萬15萬多然後另外一個廚餘4.5萬這個是年初的時候沒有想到會多得到那麼的多那花蓮的話是因為這次的這個馬太安的事情天災也有一點點影響"},{"start":259.796,"end":285.427,"text":"所以大概是這樣那我覺得我們會努力的再跟各縣市一個一個來來討論來解決因為這個是每個縣市狀況都不一樣需要個別個別的來給他們鼓勵支持好那部分這部分就麻煩部長多費心因為每一個縣市基本上每個民眾都很期待這個裸露的垃圾可以好好的處理因為再過來我們看到就是火警"},{"start":287.108,"end":313.477,"text":"剛才很多委員有提到到目前為止至少已經有24起的火警那這個火警要處理真的是非常的困難的同時他對於相關地方所造成的影響真的非常非常的明顯不管是空氣的污染土地水質的污染等等那這部分有沒有除了現有的政策以外部長有沒有心中有哪一些認為需要再積極加強的部分"},{"start":313.817,"end":329.557,"text":"好 謝謝委員這個因為我上任之後也經歷了幾個火警特別是前幾個禮拜那個台南的烏樹林的這個火警那我當然一開始我覺得跟大家都一樣覺得說為什麼要燒了那麼久燒那麼久後來現場去看才知道說哇 那裡面"},{"start":330.817,"end":352.522,"text":"真的很大 裡面的溫度四五百度我們的消防單位很努力在救24小時救很多的車都只能用傳統的方法去做處理所以針對這個例如說火災的預防我們現在雖然有監控還有灑水設備但是這種大型的掩埋場或是佔置場那種處理是我們的經驗是不夠的"},{"start":354.102,"end":375.883,"text":"然後救災的這個機制也不夠所以我們現在是希望跟這個單位一起來合作把這個方法有沒有新的方法來解決這個問題那這個再給我們一點點時間我們會找一些消防專業的人跟我們的同仁一起來合作協同因為這個是消防署跟我們的這個連結要預防那又未來救火方式也要做調整"},{"start":376.383,"end":396.398,"text":"是這個顯然需要更多的專家或者是相關有經驗的人士共同來討論希望能夠具體的把這個火警的部分從預防然後再處理還有後續相關的部分都能夠大家一起努力的來把它處理到一個到位的程度"},{"start":397.239,"end":414.623,"text":"好 再過來就是有關於預算的部分我記得去年10月份的時候就有跟部長來討論說希望能夠爭取未來循環經濟相關的預算可以增加這個我們很了解吧因為有好的預算才有辦法把事情做得更為到位"},{"start":415.063,"end":438.069,"text":"那可是我們看到就是這幾年來113年的預算編列出來預算是9億那今年是7億到明年如果總預算通過的話只剩下更少5億那這一部分是不是在爭取預算上有什麼困難那怎麼因應嗎因為我們知道如何能夠讓這個資源再利用是很重要的一個需求"},{"start":439.149,"end":467.708,"text":"是 鵝包委員那個少的部分是主要是採花法過後那他把一般性的補助館這個主計總署都直接就砍掉了所以那個一般性補助館的部分的確是我們就少了那個一般性補助館其他的有些微的增加那我們未來我們署長來說那在15年的部分我們在源頭檢讓也有爭取這個院裡面就是額度外的經費來推動所以業務執行上不會造成任何衝擊吧"},{"start":469.671,"end":492.373,"text":"在中央部我們在源頭減壓有在爭取經費那對於一些像我們要去做綠色設計或者是循環產品都有一些推動經費來做不過我們也報告委員那個時候是新增的預算啊啊等於是新增的預算如果我們預算沒有過我是完全沒辦法執行的就跟我營建剩餘土石坊跟這個智慧圍籬如果我們沒有省預算我1月1號"},{"start":493.875,"end":513.013,"text":"1月2月可能都沒辦法做我們希望快一點所以我們希望總預算能夠自己來處理對於源頭減量跟這個資源循環改善的部分剛剛有提到一個很重要就是有關於這個固態再生燃料的部分其實很多委員都很關心包括在座突破議員我也跟他討論過"},{"start":514.079,"end":542.581,"text":"針對這個SRF如何能夠讓民眾更有信心知道說他們所可能以為跟所謂的這個焚化爐的使用有一些誤解的部分那如何能夠讓民眾更有信心的來做這方面的理解跟未來可以爭取所有民眾可以共同支持因為這個是一個很重要的一個在利用的一個好的機制那這部分可不可以請部長也在這裡再說明"},{"start":542.901,"end":568.066,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為SRF其實我還沒上任前就知道這個爭議實在太大而且缺乏管理的機制那經過這一年多我們這個特別是一家一家去體檢一家一家看 然後找出問題然後找專家提出一個方法而且提出了一個白皮書未來怎麼發展現在也會定期去做監控那當然啦我們是以台灣的現在量能其實有一些SRF的廠"},{"start":568.786,"end":587.535,"text":"我們還是希望各個縣市首長能夠讓他能夠順利去推展不然該縣市的這個SRF或是垃圾處理都會出問題所以我們是鼓勵在做那有些的這個SRF的這個使用場他其實我們也期待說如果地方有希望更嚴格的標準"},{"start":588.095,"end":605.858,"text":"我们也鼓励他所以目前我们也有这样的一个沟通但是因为这个里面的这个许可权都还是要在地方政府的身上那我们未来一定会负责把关只会更严希望他更好那过去的各位的这个疑虑现在我可以说已经显著的改善了"},{"start":606.258,"end":622.141,"text":"是 我們希望好的政策可以讓它如期得到民眾的支持那最後其實就是有關於這個加護廚餘因為突然每一天會增加513噸的這個加護廚餘那有沒有短中長期的一些想法跟做法"},{"start":622.421,"end":642.158,"text":"好 谢谢委员第一个是说我们大概整个平衡量能平衡会还要在一年多的时间完全balance不用进到焚化炉烧我们是希望不要进到焚化炉烧因为这个处于是一种资源所以当然有一些增加的一个措施现在都在开展当中这第一个但是现在短期"},{"start":642.398,"end":659.686,"text":"因為要把不要未租所以這個去化要到焚化爐還是有我們會密切的監控那另外一個呢是這種設施的興建我們已經在鼓勵地方政府在做了還有一個最重要就是源頭減量所以包含了這個如何去設計一個更好更有效的不是只有宣導式的"},{"start":660.266,"end":683.72,"text":"其實或是整個源頭減量的一個策略這個是最重要的那這個部分我們現在正在規劃當中希望這個一兩個月內可以提出來一個更具體的甚至剛剛也有委員建議說是不是有一些像比照歐盟的法規其實我們都有在讀但是畢竟台灣從來沒有對食物浪費好好的去做規劃那我們也希望我們可以提出來但是這個提出來之後就像說這次的廚餘"},{"start":684.821,"end":691.147,"text":"其實就要變成成本了以後除以就是有成本了大家也不大習慣一樣所以這個部分真的是需要一個轉型"},{"start":692.335,"end":714.095,"text":"好那如果討論有決議或者是內容的話也麻煩提供給我們辦公室來做一個參考那最後一點就是剛有提到全國醫療機構相關的這些在利用的部分我們也發現每日床的這個總廢棄物生產量其實過去這幾年還是有在逐步的增加當中從105年的2.97公斤每日到13年的3.58"},{"start":718.519,"end":743.527,"text":"他只是看起來好像數字沒有那麼驚人事實上那個量其實也是蠻大的那再利用率也有稍微增加那我其實在今年的3月份也麻煩部長還有那個時候的邱部長也有一起去林和長庚做考察那這部分目前兩個部會有沒有積極的在研討針對這個醫療廢棄物如何再利用的部分有做哪一些的討論跟加強"},{"start":744.554,"end":770.909,"text":"那各位報告那我們就是在今年有個綠色醫療方案那其中就是把醫院裡面他有些廢棄物那有沒有可以再盤點那分類之後那可以來這個滅菌就進行載料那就不用去分化了所以這邊都有在做那我們有今年有去大型先從這個醫學中心的醫院先去做起那今年大概全數已經都可以來參與我們這些滅菌載料的工作了"},{"start":771.189,"end":788.074,"text":"是所以大型醫院醫療機構都有共同來參與是那我們希望因為醫療都會企圖其實越來造成影響會越來越明顯呃貴部是需要好好的來加強輔導或者是協助醫療機構共同來處理這邊的部分好謝謝謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166427","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906a5acef191148e72d3d053df696e011f86697ca1ee740c94be8601f8ea01c43fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:53:42 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謝謝主席 我們請陳部長陳部長委員好部長 部長辛苦了"},{"start":24.144,"end":39.053,"text":"第一個問題就上次我跟在議員會上質詢的獸醫師在屠宰場大型經濟作物的待遇跟出席你有提高待遇不開獎金要做嗎"},{"start":40.311,"end":55.83,"text":"我跟委員報告分兩個部分一個部分我在防疫的過程中發現到地方的防疫人員不足所以我也在中央應變中心裡面請各地方政府統計他們現在人力不足的到底不足到多少"},{"start":56.371,"end":74.933,"text":"那這個部分他們陸續都有給我一些一些那個人員的部分然後我們整理以後我想我會正式的用喊請我們人事總署針對地方的防疫的部分是不是可以增加人這是人的增加的部分這第一個部分那第二個部分就是您剛才講的就是說"},{"start":75.914,"end":95.927,"text":"人到位了以後各個養豬場要配置的受益人員本身那他有每一個場本身他給的錢不大一樣嘛那這個部分我想我們再積極再跟各縣市的這些養豬的一個工會再討論你一座我們五百塊那是要怎麼省我啦所以這個部分我想我們會再跟養豬協會這邊工會這邊討論你常常說不開獎金要提高到三萬我是說太少要六萬"},{"start":106.721,"end":135.641,"text":"這個考慮到因為現在目前不一定所有的獸醫師都從事防疫的工作所以我想我們第一階段先把這些獸醫師的不開業獎金提高了最高到3萬這是第一階段後面看看有沒有機會去處理就是說真正在處理防疫的部分是不是有一個防疫的這些津貼不能一味的一直提高不開業獎金因為有的獸醫師不從事防疫"},{"start":136.321,"end":147.548,"text":"不然你每一次出勤的朋友要給人家掙錢嘛對 所以這個要跟養豬公會那邊要去討論這個部分 類似沒有啦 時間有限啦是他的地位、尊嚴、財務都要顧著那個證書是你發的耶受益市的證書你發的耶 我覺得這樣對人家來說"},{"start":155.731,"end":170.075,"text":"很沒保障的 對嗎房檢署發的不是我發的房檢署一樣都是你 你在管的好啦 我要問第二題的問題 我時間有限了主席喔 給30秒啦這個齁 這個 這是你的詩啦我曾經去問丹喔 去那邊看來 放給大家看這隻很大隻的 這陳欣甫的啦來 放來 放來"},{"start":180.171,"end":196.847,"text":"恐龙一般仿佛来到侏罗纪公园游客拿起手机枪拍想往后闪远一点还不胜两枪还用人吓到几乎这只差不多两公斤了我靠 这么大只 都这么小对对对 这大比鸥的"},{"start":198.729,"end":219.074,"text":"下板綠烈溪真的很誇張因為長達170公分記者實際到了澄清湖才走沒多久馬上就遇到綠烈溪躲在樹叢裡不少遊客都在圍觀觀賞我本來今天要抓牽的結果我不能坐隔壁啦隔壁不能坐隔壁不能坐我抓到大隻的我拖到骨折的折到後面怕死啦腳就淪陷了很恐怖很害怕客人都說為什麼樹上有鱷魚"},{"start":225.615,"end":245.468,"text":"來 下一張因為時間幽寒 所以來 再來下一張柏中你去東港翁牙要拜拜嗎這裡翁牙要討錢啦沒去過東港我們翁牙 我叫你來拜拜這裡東港翁牙要討錢 我看到了再來"},{"start":249.795,"end":257.741,"text":"這隻我曾經牠捏了一箱而已這隻沒有的牠在打人 跟我說牠的內臟差不多有八十粒了 我說怕死人到那裡好 再來我跟大家報告一百塊八年 我們屏東縣捏了八千隻今年到十一月就捏了十一萬多隻"},{"start":276.908,"end":294.119,"text":"因為今年 我跟委員報告今年就是在年初的時候不像很多委員特別是南部的包括委員您就是說希望我們成立一個應變小組所以我們提供了一些更多的經費然後成立跨縣市的一個合作的平台所以今年度抓的特別多現在都抓到多少"},{"start":298.442,"end":307.286,"text":"每年要變成15萬隻我們今年應該12萬隻了吧大概今年到11月就12萬隻今年已經抓到22萬隻的部分你過去五萬幾隻不然這不是很討厭的那是軟的 那軟的來看下一站面再挖洞 挖軟的這不是土豆的這也不是韓式的這是軟的剛才我們在看那個"},{"start":327.952,"end":355.213,"text":"空樓這樣一樣所以現在我嚴肅的問三個問題第一個你現在只有給達人捏普通農民捏的沒錢他們捏就要捏中間的高高之後有錢沒錢不管要拿一些替代品"},{"start":356.435,"end":383.381,"text":"大隻的魚如果小吃一百塊這第一個問題第二個問題 他們農民自己的威望在吃的有補助嗎他們自己抓自己的果自己的餐盒自己的果那你都沒有補助第三 幾股餐吃完了紅豆啊什麼豆啊 瓜果類都吃完了那你又沒有天然沙的補助那現在說要補剩紅豆他就不只是吃紅豆紅豆一開而已"},{"start":384.574,"end":398.18,"text":"所以整個所有的餐廳 你看得到嗎 全部都吃光光這時間太累了 這你就要吃一顆一顆來來 歐到兩顆 兩顆也要補足 歐兩顆就好了那一粒 一箱就八十粒 一百粒一年有兩次"},{"start":412.017,"end":426.827,"text":"也能夠補農來這裡就可以了我不說了不管啦這兩個 二個起來你也要幫忙不然我這真的是議中心常跟你說啦謝謝委員的提醒喔第一個部分就是說農民的補分喔"},{"start":427.327,"end":455.377,"text":"他如果經過訓練他是可以的如果沒有經過訓練因為他現在要獵捕的時候可能要用到一些器械嘛那怕多他的安全的問題啦所以只要你經過訓練的部分的農民都可以領到這些錢那第二個部分就是說這些補助的部分噴薪我們現在沒辦法用天然災害因為天然災害有天然災害的規範所以我們現在是提供一些防治的這些資材啦"},{"start":458.378,"end":470.282,"text":"那第三個蛋的部分因為蛋比較不好找不過我想蛋的部分我們後續會來評估如果說有系統的能夠找到這個蛋是從源頭是以老永逸的這個部分我們後續會來評估好接下來我們請"},{"start":485.786,"end":486.859,"text":"啊啊"}]}},{"id":"166426","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166426","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906c882bdc2642fbb56e3a1989ac581c228b1905849ce66817699bb5a3cc09873825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"11:41:14 - 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保證你先喝茶講一下廢話 我先請中科院請中科院 李院長欸 議長 我說好樂威跟我有問題"},{"start":30.733,"end":31.854,"text":"今年三月這個標案是第三次開標"},{"start":50.441,"end":65.855,"text":"第三次 絕對 第三次開票所以 第一次跟第二次呢這一家公司有沒有來投標都沒有喔 對不對啊 為什麼第三次是誰去找他出來的來信通話 整個啊這在我們台南是穿金車的呢第一次 第二次 他都沒有來投標啊第三次是誰抱他出來吃這個好吃的"},{"start":78.8,"end":80.542,"text":"喔 這就是問題啊委員因為是公開招標啦 我知道公開招標嘛你說過去第一屆第二屆流標 第三屆就是一斤就可以了這個時候 心必靈的出來啊所以最後就絕標啦"},{"start":99.417,"end":126.725,"text":"你知不知道他同期時 三月你們割標的時候他是在去年12月30日做變更的你知不知道這個事情國民重點就是他具備了參標的資格對 我知道他具備了 他具備的是12月30日才具備的嘛我再跟你講 我請保證來所以中科院你就是第一次 第二次 他都沒來啦"},{"start":128.072,"end":132.395,"text":"他三次要割皮的順序就出現了啦你只割他一斤而已啦不對 剛才那個軍備局 軍備局你說有5%的保證金我請教你 這個軍備局5%的保證金 中科院你可以回去 請坐"},{"start":153.675,"end":159.258,"text":"這5%是用什麼支票 現金?還是支票?還是定存單?是 都 報告委員都可以現金 集齊支票他一屆是用這支的支票就對了 是的 是的我們要這5%要做什麼?你看 豹趴出來賣蛋拿5%跟木修5%要怎樣?喔?保證人家你在應援喔 不要那麼生氣啦"},{"start":181.499,"end":188.605,"text":"我知道你是站在法律上的角度 我們有保護這個標案跟木修對於來說普通不一樣啊甚至還有醫館在這裡說什麼本來做玩具也可以做無人機啊可以啊 我以前就是玩具生產啊我做玩具做20幾年了我本來也可以做槍啊後來內政部來取締啊"},{"start":209.196,"end":213.318,"text":"我也可以做無人機啊遙控驅動的我都可以做啊但是過程有一個研發啊不會說瞬間一夜之間我就變得可以做人家想投入研發三年四年五年不等嘛陶瓷也一樣啊精密陶瓷我也是投入研發啊才有新品出來啊"},{"start":236.298,"end":243.804,"text":"做漁船的當然也可以做雷箭啊 那就別空啊 慶富就這樣來的嘛 國家僚兩百幾個啊你不能說他只要有資格就可以嘛這間啦 暗沒目啦12月30號變更的時候 我聽到了啦 我現在跟你講為什麼會是他 因為有人去看嘛"},{"start":266.032,"end":268.875,"text":"這個採購本來就是一個很封閉啊我們比較過去你們採購的農務當然有人說要打破壟斷嘛 很好啊打破壟斷那就是弄一個新的壟斷啊為什麼是他 為什麼不是我啊來撥的資料農中有的時候"},{"start":292.898,"end":311.643,"text":"包括去巴西買芥農的藝術是什麼你知道嗎 超市不要去過巴西巴西有人替他拆工好了 有人替他整廢棍 有人把他送進來你不要到台灣了喔 這個雞蛋應該給哪一家廠商幫他去化超市連洗蛋的工廠都沒有那最後去化以後還直接流到通路"},{"start":318.074,"end":324.458,"text":"這間就是要奉祭 是不是這樣 我跟你講他沒有這個領略上勝算 也沒有這個領略上進回那當然 人家就懷疑啊 是不是國安部有人介入 官員有介入民意代表有介入 他是怎樣是民意代表給聽的 還是官員報他好康的 還是莫迪是他們表現"},{"start":349.775,"end":352.156,"text":"莫迪你聽不懂 印度總理啊印度總理是他們表現 怎麼可以拿這個表現轉型 企業轉型是好事 但轉型不會是一夕之間你能進入軍工科技這個產業他這是標準的 有問題 我在這裡替賴清德總統澄清一下"},{"start":377.038,"end":384.26,"text":"經過分析台南的調查賴總統跟他們不認識他不是賴友友但他是立友友賴總統跟他不認識啦而且當時借他的牌出來做台南市2014年到2016年那個小型工程的那個人"},{"start":398.854,"end":413.078,"text":"也不是他們本身 那是人家照擺出來做的所以我現在 我算在這裡替賴總統澄清各位不要誤會 賴清德跟他們不認識但是有民意代表跟他認識啊為什麼會把整個標案弄好了這就是損風殺到窮啦"},{"start":425.08,"end":429.021,"text":"不給過去那個結構的那些廠家繼續做那為什麼挑了他那挑他以後本身在這正式跟部長檢舉跟這個公司接觸的有一個退役的金人這是前天在地的人跟我講有退役的金人跟他們接觸"},{"start":452.441,"end":479.595,"text":"那到底這個退役的軍人是代表國安部還是代表民意代表去跟他周旋周旋好了以後促成這個標案這是我要注意的當然我們採購有很多困難啊對不對所以要保證採購的進來你不知道印度部長你了不了解俄羅斯在賣原油的時候印度大買特買然後轉賣"},{"start":481.892,"end":504.47,"text":"有這個事嗎這兩三年 俄武戰爭的過程印度買了俄羅斯很多原油就直接轉賣 賺了大筆的錢那你怎麼會知道這個原物料呢印度不是向中國大陸買的 然後轉賣給我們我們要怎麼防堵"},{"start":507.216,"end":530.165,"text":"我們會取得原產的他原產就變成是印度出來的 習產地啊但是你沒辦法追查你也沒有能力追查 坦白講國安部包括民意大包括各方面很難去追查到這一點那我們要怎麼去防度 要他提出什麼樣的切捷我們這個原產製造證明文件是要經過產地法院或公證人公證"},{"start":531.145,"end":551.071,"text":"那當然他會取得嘛我的意思說他會取得就像這個印度從俄羅斯買來的原油轉賣一樣他也可以取得但是這個原物料實質上是來自中國大陸那我們怎麼辦我們就資助了紅色產業鏈啦我們會要求軍備局會同這個廠商辦理文件查驗我們必要的事也會實施反向查證"},{"start":560.219,"end":570.605,"text":"返鄉查證那要不要到產地去查證有沒有這個機制 合約裡面有沒有寫如果有必要的話我們會請駐外單位這個很嚴肅啦 部長我覺得這個我們必須要落實啦能不能 因為以他能夠得標那表示現在印度是有貨可以看啦是不是 君佩琪是不是這樣"},{"start":588.216,"end":605.968,"text":"印度現在應該是有現貨可以看或是有生產線可以看那我們能不能請廠商提供我們先去看一下我想我們這個部分等廠商提出輸出許可證明之後我們會來進行相關的這個旅業監督的作為"},{"start":607.287,"end":625.959,"text":"那提出以後部長我們什麼時候可不可以在他提出來以後我們在兩個月以內我們國安委員會請主席我們組成一個考察團我們到印度的廠地工廠去看一下實際了解可以嗎主席可以嗎我認為這個相關重要因為這可能會資助到紅色產業鏈"},{"start":638.581,"end":657.626,"text":"本席有高度的情報來源這些東西很可能是從中國大陸轉過來的還有就是國防部退役這個軍官我私底下會跟那個廉政今天調查局沒有來我會跟廉政署講這個軍官是哪一個軍種跟這個李先生他們接觸"},{"start":663.493,"end":679.488,"text":"那目前情報來源是說有交情但是是有人代表民意代表去接觸他然後還刻意帶風向說他是賴友友你對老青帝這樣汙衊我是看不下去啦"},{"start":681.277,"end":699.09,"text":"所以這裡今天兩個澄清第一個他不是賴友友第二個我們要採購的原物料很可能就是來自中國大陸然後轉到這邊來所以本席才會要求拿到這個證明以後"},{"start":701.107,"end":728.065,"text":"那印度的法院如果願意認證那建勤主席我們應該做一個實地因為這種採購不會一次就結束既然我們要擴大國防採購跟擴大軍備儲蓄那可能後續還會有更大的採購量一定要小心謹慎部長你認不認同我們會落實我們的旅業的監督機制"},{"start":729.534,"end":748.178,"text":"那監督機制你贊不贊成我們組團到印度去實地考察委員的這個行程我想不是我們國安部可以置會的那國安部到時候要派誰一舉來我們剛剛已經講了我們必要會請駐外的單位來做一個查問沒有 我們要有國安部軍備局陪同啊因為你們是專業的 你們要提供專業諮詢啊"},{"start":757.113,"end":784.993,"text":"否則我們這只是只有委員去也沒有用啊隨便就被糊弄啦那國安部能夠 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謝謝主席 那請部長請彭部長欸 趙偉豪部長好 部長這一本這一本你有沒有看過"},{"start":19.878,"end":46.003,"text":"環境部的全台垃圾山危機與社會氣候去化的專案報告有你有詳細看過我後來拿那個自己在做簡報啦我自己是簡報的版本可能有一些些那個我的簡報的部分會更細緻呈現啦所以這個不夠細緻嘛因為我是看那個我自己核外在做這個在多做的更多"},{"start":46.588,"end":68.849,"text":"對啦 所以你就看這個覺得就是不夠細緻你才不會再做另外那一份嘛對對 要讓大家比較更清楚的了解如果說這一份你有看過我是覺得跟我對你的認識啦在你私生上的作為跟作風是有很大的落差是真的很大落差簡單講啦 台灣垃圾處理的觀念一直是落後國際啦"},{"start":71.733,"end":93.067,"text":"這個我們不得不承認我在這個委員會也有一段時間了那也經歷過好幾屆的署長跟現在的部長那人家處理這個垃圾的方法其實好像人家在開跑車我們一直在騎腳踏車啦不要說看不懂就騎不動啦先驗也驗不中啦因為你來當部長的時候我覺得應該是有有不一樣來面對這個垃圾處理"},{"start":102.042,"end":112.334,"text":"從減量 從這個戰事 從到要掩埋是文化應該會有不一樣的一個思維跟作法但是我看這個報告裡面 沒有"},{"start":113.567,"end":133.568,"text":"就是完全沒有,所以我才會這麼講我們當時是在1990年的時候我們政府提出以先是易分化的政策那國際上當時歐洲等國家就已經確立減量與回收優先,魂化為主我們還以魂化為主、掩埋為虎的觀念"},{"start":135.12,"end":161.089,"text":"然後到2025年已經經過35年了三十五年了 狀況仍然一樣我們面對垃圾問題我們思考是如何儘早掩埋 焚化沒有充分的去思考要如何再減量然後再到做最好的戰車的處理甚至於面對突然的災害還有焚化廠的睡秋的時候要如何去應應短期這個暴增的垃圾"},{"start":162.33,"end":170.68,"text":"因為從今年的華年光復災害以及台中非洲豬瘟的事件我想是給我們台灣很冷善的一刻沒有充分的事前準備"},{"start":172.233,"end":197.078,"text":"結果這個災害發生我們好像感覺到有在做啦但是中央跟地方來講感覺地方的束手無策全是顯示在國人的面前那中央當然也一直積極要去處理不過好像這個一直銜接不起來我在這個報告裡面然後再整理一些資料部長你就知道我要提出來說這個報告完全不是你的施政作用跟作為"},{"start":198.158,"end":213.271,"text":"然後你看喔 同時部長在看這個表這是環境部建制的全國裸露堆積垃圾妥善處理監控平台上面很清楚的顯示110年到現在全國各地掩埋場 轉運站等垃圾堆積場火災通報77次 偷偷的"},{"start":218.376,"end":226.123,"text":"也就是說這些堆置廠平均每兩週就發生一起火災這個不是零屁設施這不是鹹熱設施這叫危險設施"},{"start":229.147,"end":251.253,"text":"然後111年之間 新竹21期我的母縣 雲林縣竟然也11期然後澎湖 連離島的澎湖也10期所以我們在垃圾這個戰事的整個管理上落天的管理上 根本就是鬆散 毫無機率而且我們還設這個平台 還讓這樣的事情持續在發生我是要說這是完全搞在一起"},{"start":258.58,"end":287.439,"text":"這個就有陰謀論啦 這個民間有講的嘛我們上去焚烙爐燒不一定可以照亮全部燒一燒嘛再來 繼續有問題這個中央當時對焚烙爐的政策從公辦公營 公辦民營到民辦民營坦白講 這中間有很多人當時在上下起手也有很多人因為這個樣子因案 因這樣的案子被抓去判刑 執行完畢了啦"},{"start":289.099,"end":316.206,"text":"這是顯示這個政策基本上必須要大幅的去面對然後去做修正不然這樣事情還是會層出不窮因為到現在還有人期待要蓋焚化爐那我現在想說他這個知道這個狀況反而沒有在期待焚化爐那直接搞一個露天的焚化廠來做焚化不然怎麼會這個樣子 兩個禮拜一次兩個禮拜燒一次 兩個禮拜燒一次不分本島跟離島"},{"start":317.659,"end":338.406,"text":"然後我們還設置這個監控平台那第二件事情12月1號我們環境部發一個新聞稿 極端氣候加劇環境部督促地方政府加強掩埋掩埋場的防災管理然後嚴禮什麼 嚴禮災害廢棄物管理指引你如果沒有發這條新聞 我又不會覺得"},{"start":341.104,"end":363.711,"text":"我不知道這是不是經過部長的同意還是部長的指示然後來研擬這樣的一個指引到現在研擬指引有用嗎到現在面對這麼多的這麼多場的火災我們還研擬指引你覺得有用嗎而且你沒指引我看你的報告好像到明年的二月過年農曆過年前後才要出來不知道要再燒幾百啊照這樣的比例嘛發生率來講嘛"},{"start":369.228,"end":395.435,"text":"我針對當時衛福部啦 不管凱凱案啦不管那個蘇丹農案都有啊 地方政府也有訂指引啊中央也有指引啊地方政府覺得說我們訂的還比你中央的指引更好因為這個完全沒有法律上的效力啦完全沒有啦所以一旦要等到燒出事情 燒出人命我們大家才警覺然後才覺得這非常嚴重的事情我們才要去做面對"},{"start":396.874,"end":419.999,"text":"我覺得這不對啦依照部長的個性還有施政的作風我想這個應該我們立法院來修懷也不為過所以你們要不要趕快你們要趕快去面對然後去調整然後去修正你們相關的辦法來好好處理這個事情不然今天召委排這個專報你不要召委排完之後兩個禮拜又不曉得哪一個縣市的暫時的垃圾對市場又燒一次還是兩個禮拜內燒兩次沒道理啦"},{"start":427.592,"end":447.674,"text":"所以我希望部長就是面對這個事情依照你的施政的作風作為應該是很積極的該修辦法去修辦法該提到我們來修木樺我們就來做修木樺嘛戰事場的相關規定都在一般的匯蓄回收清除處理的辦法中所以我在這邊要具體跟部長建議啦"},{"start":448.556,"end":476.487,"text":"我們應該整個梳理這個相關規定 同時是不是找專家包含相關單位 地方政府的意見訂定一個專門針對垃圾戰車場的管理辦法好 好不好 我覺得這要訂出來啦 好不好因為你今天報告裡面有說自己的車子 你這個有尾車嘛有邀請專家學者及中央地方相關部會來討論以有具有有初步具體內容具體內容是不是可以輸出於在修訂相關辦法裡面好"},{"start":478.257,"end":497.082,"text":"一個星期可以吧委員因為這個是因為我們包含我們同仁這個上個禮拜也到日本去問他們專家因為日本很理想說例如說我們的堆製值的5公尺高然後多大的面積然後我有我在但是這個在台灣差很多處理土壤看日本我知道我知道現在這個又看日本"},{"start":498.482,"end":523.898,"text":"台灣喔 你在做補充費用有很多輸費跟做法 也不一定輸日本啦不用等到看日本的醫療 我們才有得做啦1999年到現在去控制歐年 35年啊我們還要處理垃圾的戰事 處理的相關辦法然後要去嚴定指引你去看日本也沒有用啊 你去看美國也沒有用啊你去看歐美有什麼用 那是心態問題啊"},{"start":526.087,"end":551.897,"text":"那心態問題啦 沒被35等到現在還在補責嘛我講表就是這樣啊 你再看你們12月10號又出了一則新聞這個新聞我看了我看的實在是還蠻憤怒的 台中市環保局出妙招出妙招 出妙招還是真的有夠奇妙 妙妙妙什麼妙招 壓縮垃圾再打包 避免發臭四處飛"},{"start":554.451,"end":581.557,"text":"垃圾打包 垃圾分選 垃圾打包什麼時候環境部從環保署的時代什麼時候開始實施中央跟台中市政府有城鄉落差進入到時空隧道嗎是從1990年到現在2025年中央的這個垃圾的分選打包跟台中市政府是有這樣的疏離感嗎這個叫妙招"},{"start":583.705,"end":607.965,"text":"這個會叫妙招不管媒體怎麼下標我是覺得為什麼到現在台中市的環保局才會來處理這個事情然後被媒體形容叫做妙招你環境部都沒有妙招啦好可憐啊台中市現在有妙招了你們死定了你們要被挑戰了不只這樣啊114年1月9號"},{"start":611.397,"end":639.248,"text":"部長 這個是你下去的嘛然後你要及各縣市由裸露垃圾堆置的縣市環保局長共同宣示並簽署合作宣言持續透過數位化的管理源頭減量資源回收垃圾場整理及垃圾打包減農我不曉得這個減農這個農的意思是怎樣就是不要裸露啦不要裸露造成環境問題啦那為什麼用這個農"},{"start":641.308,"end":650.872,"text":"就是原來的這個裸露實在很不好看而且造成這個蒼蠅衛生的問題惡臭的問題所以減少這個垃圾場醜陋的容貌啦我可以這樣解釋嗎減少現在看到很多這個暫時對市場裸露的醜陋的容貌的垃圾場"},{"start":660.576,"end":677.27,"text":"等多項措施嘛然後中央跟地方共同合作在115年底前達成妥善解決各件事裸露堆積的問題嘛是當時的這是年初的那現在年底呢地方政府的環保局 臺東市環保局講說妙招的所以你認為"},{"start":681.457,"end":705.899,"text":"你看喔 台中市環保局的局長還是副局長沒有一起跟你們召開這個會嗎有 前任局長也在這邊 對那其實我所知道的是他們堆了非常非常的多比大家想像中還要多很多所以你們1月份也是有邀集他們嘛 對不對怎麼會年初邀集他們年底的時候他們有這樣好像發掘到新的一個處理我想"},{"start":707.541,"end":730.347,"text":"說到自己的 我覺得我們要拿這兩個東西去做比較問到那個前途都沒有了真的問到那個前途都沒有了所以你現在在訂直營 有用嗎 沒有用啦沒有用 絕對沒有用處都沒有啦再你看 過去台中市不是沒有處理啊這個是在前市長的任內 2021年的之前"},{"start":734.222,"end":746.534,"text":"應該是更早 110對2021年有啊 不是沒有錯啊整齊劃一也不用再減農了啦不用再減少醜陋的垃圾場的農貿了現在2025怎麼變這樣怎麼現在才會再出妙招"},{"start":753.419,"end":781.827,"text":"我想打包垃圾基本上當然是要多花一點錢我們一定現在也是靠環境部的補助四千一百多萬應該還不止啦對不對要更多嘛然後就用這個壓縮護膜去打包的方式可以減少這樣的醜陋的容貌然後還可以抑制這個惡臭的發生嘛對啊這很久了很久了對啊怎麼會變成台中市環保局的妙招"},{"start":783.74,"end":803.329,"text":"所以我還是請這樣還是請部長營利相關的計畫更積極的計畫然後是不是一個更妥善的處理方式然後有具體的這樣的一個一個一個一個檢調的一個KPI我們我們我們呈給我們的委員會大家大家再來再再來督促了好不好好可以嗎一個月內嗎好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"166424","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166424","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906811a452a884c578a3d053df696e011f8b1905849ce66817619e861c81d6c028e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:38:52 - 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就是說從目前廚餘在台灣是被廢清法裡面認為是一般的廢棄物那如果未來想要比照日本的ecofit這樣的模式去轉型成環保飼料的時候是不是要修法"},{"start":50.046,"end":64.686,"text":"第一個部分跟委員報告如果說廚餘變成飼料的話它本身就是飼料那飼料的話就會根據飼料管理法那邊去做這些相關的一個規範它不會再去考慮說它的料源是廚餘或是不是廚餘"},{"start":65.507,"end":89.724,"text":"所以這就是廚餘就不會被認定為一般廢棄物嗎 是不是對 它變成飼料就不是一般廢棄物了省市長不是嗎 是不是就不會變 所以廢清法部分就不用修因為廢清法是環境部的嘛 對不對所以廢清法的部分就不用修了 是不是而是在飼料的管理法裡面來做修法 相關的修法 是嗎"},{"start":91.735,"end":119.447,"text":"那那個陳部長我想請問那未來我們是不是有可能像日本這樣的處理方式跟委員報告就是特別委員關心的就是怎麼樣讓廚藝能夠真正的再利用變成飼料委員一直關心所以我們也參考了日本的相關的那個eco feed的本身的一個規範然後也成立了一個專案的一個團隊然後希望說透過公司協力的方式第一個先把技術的取得確認"},{"start":120.868,"end":147.691,"text":"然後再看看說可不可以用既有的珍珠中心去做這些設備的更改變成一個飼料化的一個工廠所以是要用既有的珍珠中心嗎這是最快的那如果說它是小規模的話它也可以用小規模的像日本它有一些小規模的這些廚餘的直接變成飼料化的這些設備那這個設備我們也在考慮是不是先引進來去做一些測試"},{"start":149.497,"end":176.946,"text":"那未來就是說我們要怎麼樣子把這個出於就是循環再利用減肥嗎那到底環境部有沒有規劃往生殖能的方面有跟委員報告目前台灣有兩個生殖能延長一個是在桃園一個是台中那目前有一座是藍駝在招標作業當中那規劃的目前有台南跟高雄"},{"start":177.776,"end":196.009,"text":"那未來要多久因為我們現在你也知道我們現在眼睜睜的就面臨到我們禁止廚餘養豬以後現在學校的這些團善業者還有我們的家用的廚餘等等都面臨到無去處的這個情況嗎"},{"start":198.595,"end":213.37,"text":"你看你教學校怎麼處理這些事情跟委員報告剛剛講的那個藍投台南跟高雄那是在117年會完成那三年以後是但是在116年底的時候台灣的在地用量就已經大於產生量了"},{"start":214.411,"end":237.725,"text":"你怎麼計算的我們在明年的一年當中地方政府報上來的他們可以增加的再利用量能包括快速堆回或者是傳統堆回或者是黑水門再利用等等或者是跟污水下一道系統共消化的部分的量能加起來有600噸在未來的一年未來的兩年就是116年的時候會再增加400噸"},{"start":238.991,"end":250.35,"text":"那你把它變成了就是說你把它都變成了地下污水下水道等等的共消化是其中一個選項另外就是堆回或者是黑水門再利用"},{"start":251.527,"end":279.266,"text":"至於黑水蒙在利用的問題我也要就教於你我們兩個一起去看過我們兩個一起去看過黑水蒙的那個啊可是黑水蒙的確在過程當中它需要一個發酵的那個過程會產生的氣味會讓互信的就是周邊的如果有居住的人或者是同場域的人會覺得不舒服嘛是不是那這個部分有沒有辦法做解決"},{"start":280.083,"end":302.499,"text":"跟委員報告那個當然不管是什麼樣的處理設施都應該要考慮到設置的地點的適合性然後做好居民溝通我舉的例子現在不是只有民間設黑水門的場地方政府的清潔隊也有我知道是那我也問過我們的清潔隊的隊員他們過去在處理轉運的過程當中他收的傢戶來之後他再送去處理"},{"start":304.2,"end":323.547,"text":"戰制的過程當中如果他採用的是用黑水門來取代過去的傳統的方式他改善了他的環境衛生所以清潔隊員是開是歡迎的所以這個不是不是因為我是說如果有這一種氣味的產生那那個發酵過程你菌種可以改嗎是不是菌種能不能改"},{"start":325.31,"end":344.066,"text":"所以我不了解就是說黑水盟基本上就是飼養了蟲體來吃掉這個有機物我知道我知道我們那天去看了嘛我們去看你也有我想那個我也我不曉得那天你有沒有拿手去我當然有啊對啊那個有溫度的蟲蟲其實它沒有特別的溫度沒有特別的味道我當然有你不是也有嗎有是啊是啊"},{"start":344.226,"end":360.541,"text":"我是說就是這個會產生造成鄰近設施的這個大家居民的問題我認為你也要想辦法來做相關的解決好不好環境部你這種你就是應該要解決一下就是居民的生活品質的問題那"},{"start":362.262,"end":386.269,"text":"畢竟台灣就是地狹人稠的地方大家都是很接近這些鄉鄰的設施所以是不是能夠就這個部分環境部也要想出具體解決方法現在很多嘛 你改善那個菌種然後減低氣味等等的這很多方式可以改善 是不是"},{"start":387.216,"end":396.862,"text":"那部長我在就教育你喔現在怎麼辦飼料養豬就是廚藥不能養豬以後那飼料怎麼辦"},{"start":398.967,"end":422.6,"text":"這你要講一下第一個部分我覺得現在問題就是說我們現在這些黑豬的部分過去用廚餘嘛那他們過往一直沒有習慣用飼料所以第一個部分就是讓他們習慣怎麼樣用一個飼料去飼養那這個飼料我們現在敘事所有一些就是專門黑豬的這些飼料配方讓他們有這樣的一個習慣"},{"start":423.635,"end":451.292,"text":"那因為用飼料的話它的生育期就不會跟廚餘一樣那麼長因為廚餘本身是低蛋白的部分所以我想我們會成立我們已經成立一個黑豬的輔導團隊會不會增加成本成本是一定會增加會不會增加成本一定會增加成本但是相對的現在就是很麻煩就是你看養豬的成本也增加學校團善的費用的處理的費用也增加所以兩邊增加嘛對不對"},{"start":452.012,"end":467.178,"text":"對 我想短期內一定增加但是長期來講的話我們是用確保這些原來的黑豬產業能夠持續發展而且它的利潤是能夠做一個維持基本的維持這個我想我們是我們要的一個目標"},{"start":467.984,"end":484.595,"text":"那请问一下他如果一些珍珠的设施他才刚买有没有那如果赶不上你们那种ecofit这样子的方式就是用原本的珍珠设施去做这些就是环保饰料那怎么办呢"},{"start":485.055,"end":503.051,"text":"我想我们现在会用目前的共同争主中心像苗栗的那个全数当作一个一个案场去协助它变成一个饲料化工厂那自己在家里是没有办法变成一个饲料的因为饲料化工厂它有它的品规规格化的问题"},{"start":503.851,"end":530.311,"text":"所以一般就是说小型的没有办法自己没办法做那有没有就是说那这个他们拆除设备怎么样子相关的我们后续如果说我们的EcoFit如果觉得说这个技术是可行的我们会鼓励一些另外他成立一个不在猪场里面在外面成立一个做这样的一个厨艺饲料化的一个小型工厂这个我想我们都愿意来辅导"},{"start":530.802,"end":539.872,"text":"所以就是原有的珍珠設施可以變成小型 不行在原來的租場是不行的 不行 不行要在外面就對了 在外面 對因為我們擔心說 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到底是怎麼樣 是戳到你哪個痛腳 你怎麼早上一來這裡面對媒體的生氣 在這裡現在生氣到底生氣是為什麼啦 你說一個問題為什麼這麼生氣各位委員報告 我想我對每一件事情都只是據理例證而已你有很生氣喔有好幾個人問我 為什麼顧部長這麼生氣原來很有修養的變成沒有修養"},{"start":50.47,"end":78.307,"text":"來我們來看喔外界質疑的是什麼外界質疑的就是他的資本額1900萬為什麼可以拿到這麼大的標剛才已經有很多委員講了我就不重複了外界質疑的是這個那你就一直在回答一個事情說旅約保證5%交了押標金交了是不是這兩個都交了還是只有交一個先交押標金"},{"start":80.27,"end":99.573,"text":"先加投標押標金然後絕標之後就是押標金我還回然後就他履約保證金所以等於3%加5% 8%前面先收3%對完成程序之後絕標之後還回他3%再加5%再收5%那現在在你手上到底多少幾%了"},{"start":101.454,"end":124.501,"text":"5%那是多少錢的5%是5.9億的5%還是原來8點幾億的5%預算金額8.2億的5%所以是4千多萬在你手上那部長啊 你在乎不在乎他這個錢是借來的拿到你這個合約拿到的去融資剛才委員提到的 你在乎不在乎還是you don't care我只要他錢給我就好了"},{"start":124.901,"end":151.133,"text":"我不介意 我在乎的是透過我們這樣的公開招標的程序能夠如期如質的執行完這個合約讓我們能夠拿到我們所需要的火藥原物料那麼履約保證金沒收跟解約然後還有辦理停權是拿來我們控管他在招標之前他就要思考他有沒有這樣子的履約能力的一個"},{"start":152.333,"end":166.03,"text":"控管的機制下一個檢核點是什麼時候下一個檢核點就是他要在絕標次日起的180個日曆天列取得外國政府或授權機構核發的輸出許可證明那是什麼時候就是絕標日起180 絕標是什麼時候12月2"},{"start":173.047,"end":187.182,"text":"12月8號絕標所以大概半年左右就明年度的六月左右是不是這個意思是 看他能不能取得這樣如果不能取得咧如果不能夠取得我們就可以要檢討要不要解除合約怎麼會這麼客氣就解除啦 不是嗎"},{"start":193.254,"end":202.157,"text":"我們如果委員的這個意思是如此我們也確定他不能取得輸出許可的證明我們就會採取這樣的手段那委員金呢沒收啊就是旅遊保證沒收就對了啦對啊沒收四千多萬啦我為什麼特別提這個因為前面幾位委員已經有提到了就是大家會擔心的像我們的風力發電"},{"start":223.43,"end":232.92,"text":"政府給合約保證收購電而且電價很高他拿這個合約去貸款通通拿銀行的錢"},{"start":234.617,"end":257.152,"text":"這個到底的買空賣空啊到底的買空賣空我們怕這個事情也歷史重演那個風電一樣所以這個大家就會比較說那這個不是跟這個小吃店做快篩的生意超市雞蛋進口幾乎如出一冊啊就變這個樣子外界擔心的是這個而且你剛剛講說他有營業項目這去年才加進來的啊你不讓外界有這樣的質疑都很困難"},{"start":264.597,"end":285.211,"text":"因為去年才加入 我請教部長湖邁公司應該不是去年才加進來的 營業項目去年才加進來的不是 是不是 他原來就是從事國際貿易沒有 化學品 化學用料的化學原料去年加進來的我們的資格就是他能夠從事國際貿易化學原料不用在乎我們歷來過去20年的"},{"start":289.614,"end":315.712,"text":"20年來所有火藥原物料的資格都只要具有國際貿易的業務項目可是他沒有做過火藥的生意喔 過去沒有因為我們這是內購外賣嘛那這個他只要有一個國際貿易業的代理商的資格就可以啦這個部長 其實其實 我就問你一件很直白的啦"},{"start":316.874,"end":331.705,"text":"我們立委提報這件事情之前請問你知不知道這個事情我對相關的個案每一個個案我沒有去介入所以你都不知道當然是事件爆發出來之後我才了解這個整個案件的內容"},{"start":332.159,"end":334.941,"text":"以你大律師的背景你沒有看一下這個這個案子沒有任何可以你監討的地方嗎你不會覺得它資本額太小嗎不會這樣覺得嗎我們檢視的結果就是已經一再的跟委員說明就是在於說我們開放這個參與投標但是我們會做嚴格的履歷監督嘛那這個就是一個核心的一個我們國防部的立場對於這樣子的一個開放參與投標然後核心監督"},{"start":362.102,"end":390.193,"text":"這個履約然後對於履約的這個部分他會招致這個相關的這些被沒收被解約被停權的後果他在參標之前他就會做衡量他一定覺得他一定會去思考他有沒有履約能力那剛剛委員也指教的很好就是說第一個管制點在什麼時候第一個管制點就是在於決標的自治體的一定的日期內他要取得外國政府的一個輸出區的證明他如果拿不到"},{"start":390.993,"end":393.919,"text":"他就會面臨你有沒有側面了解他能不能讓人知道我現在沒有辦法去評估這樣子的一個狀況你總是要了解現在已經新聞報這麼大了你總是要去了解一下"},{"start":403.055,"end":410.442,"text":"我們現在相關的作為就是我們在採購前辦理這個商員的徵詢然後之後我們辦理公開招標讓所有可能能力的人都進來投標你跟民企了解一下他的資本有1000多萬他怎麼有錢拿4000多萬給你交旅遊保證金借來的"},{"start":424.864,"end":438.792,"text":"我要拿到的是旅業保證金的現金我並不需要去管這一個他的你不會在乎嗎你不在乎老百姓在乎喔我們的控管的所要就是旅業保證金的沒收啊"},{"start":439.315,"end":464.585,"text":"不是他就是拿你的因為拿到你的合約拿去貸款的所以這一點大家在意這一點你怎麼會說你一個大律師怎麼會國際貿易在從事相關的業務我想過去幾十年很多我們的這些中小企業也好或者我們從事國際貿易的這些奮鬥的過程當中我想他如何運用他的資金這本來就是他成功歷史裡面的一段"},{"start":465.785,"end":474.389,"text":"我認為我們不需要去非議這樣的一個手段重點就在於他必須要繳交旅業保證金而我們的手段非常簡單看到貨品質合格我們才會付款我們沒有任何的風險在這個之前但是他要受到很大的風險他沒有辦法旅業他旅業保證金會被沒收他會被停權"},{"start":491.857,"end":505.716,"text":"外界的質疑就是這事先都講好了才去去年把這個原料化學原料把它加進來的然後都是講好了才去做這個事情為什麼只有一家飆請問它是不是限制性招飆"},{"start":507.213,"end":535.267,"text":"跟委員報告你如果看我們提出來的過去這個五年內相關的這些表案很多都是一家出來投票因為他都是有把握去拿到這些證明他才會進來投票這個就是火藥原物料的一個採購的一個特色所以你是替他背書的啦我沒有要替他背書我也不知道他是不是能到最後拿到輸出去的證明尤其特別在經過這一段風波之後但是"},{"start":536.147,"end":555.677,"text":"他能夠來投標他當然就要先思考我另外問一個問題美國國會研究處在12月11號報告IF12735這裡面特別提到了台灣如果因為"},{"start":556.517,"end":582.008,"text":"就是說美國對他的盟國對他的朋友們如果遭受到攻擊的話他可能會動用核武去幫忙那麼簡單來講就是兩岸開戰雖然台灣跟美國沒有這個台美的什麼相互互相協防跳躍什麼之類的美國延伸嚇阻跟區域核能力就是他會動用核武器"},{"start":583.784,"end":605.138,"text":"來的話我們台灣有沒有承受核戰場的能力我們最大的這個努力就是我們做好我們的備戰基礎我們來避戰然後這個台海的和平穩定的現狀能夠維持沒有沒有沒有 你沒有回答問題我問你核戰場萬一如果美國要出動這個了台灣會牽連嗎"},{"start":607.93,"end":615.821,"text":"我相信如果有任何發生核子武器的動用對全世界都會是一個災難不是只有對台灣謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166411","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166411","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da759069626000be62402dde3a1989ac581c228e8e52b0719441b9740c3ce8f2effcf9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:36:36 - 10:48:55","影片長度":"00:12:19","會議時間":"2025-12-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21 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請顧部長"},{"start":14.96,"end":31.136,"text":"好 部長早因為我們今天的題目很聚焦所以大家其實問的都差不多那麼我想部長藉這個機會也都做了一些澄清不過本席要提醒的是本席在第一時間看到PTT上面的爆料的時候也提醒了國防部"},{"start":31.696,"end":33.757,"text":"因為這一個標案它是在12月10號12月10號決標公告之後在網路的PTT上面下午的2點03分就已經發文開始質疑這一家得標廠商的資格不符包括它的主要的經營登記的事項等等特別用這種方式"},{"start":56.072,"end":80.354,"text":"所謂片段的資訊來帶風向質疑國防部在所謂的軍事採購上面的標案有問題而馬上的在三個小時之後也就是剛好5點03分的時候國民黨的王宏威委員也發文質疑了這件事情接下來12月12號國民黨也召開了記者會那麼來質疑我必須要提醒的是"},{"start":81.215,"end":85.418,"text":"這一連串會不會是有意針對我們11月25號公布的8年1.25兆的軍事採購特別預算而來我想問部長的是部長什麼時候知道開始面對從網路再到在野黨的相關的質疑那麼我們國防部開記者會我知道國防部有出來開記者會開記者會的時間點是什麼時候"},{"start":109.195,"end":132.515,"text":"呃 我們是 我這邊是應該是王宏威委員來的時候我有看到相關他的新聞那我們在進行了解嘛是 那花了多少時間來進行了解呃 應該是蠻短的吧 應該是我們就一天當天當天嗎 就是等於12月10號可不可以說明一下"},{"start":133.939,"end":154.077,"text":"是 我們當獲得到這個資訊的時候我們就立即沒有停止查證這個整個這個原案這個案子的始末但是是不是其實在解釋的過程中沒有像今天部長講的這麼清楚我要提醒的是從之前我質疑海昆號的時候我就說過了有關於現在我們任何的軍事尤其是"},{"start":155.385,"end":175.938,"text":"軍事採購又或者是我們在國防自主跟軍備有關的部分的時候是很容易透過片段性的資訊然後引發國人的不安尤其是導到後來的時候已經做下結論是說來什麼什麼賣馬桶的也可以做火藥所以未來我們8年1.25兆"},{"start":178.8,"end":181.422,"text":"的這個國防預算是不是也會出現同樣的狀況我必須提醒國防部如果這是一個認知作戰的啟動那麼你們的速度更要加快因為第一時間我說實話我就丟了相關的資訊請你們告訴我答案跟做澄清但是我必須講到了今天至少召委安排今天這樣的一個專報"},{"start":198.297,"end":207.181,"text":"可以讓部長還有其他單位把事情解釋清楚但是問題是今天已經是12月15號已經經過將近要一個禮拜的發酵了如果可以我認為其實應該要有更多具體的說明這個國人才能夠對我們接下來的國防的軍事採購甚至於軍備上面的整建有信心"},{"start":222.045,"end":244.607,"text":"是 我想委员的指教是非常清楚那么整个案子确实我们在第一时间主要是清查了前五年的整个一个购案状况那么因为清查其实需要一些时间那么这一次我们把等于往前推二十年所有购案状况通通查出来那这样子可能说明会更清楚一点那当然如何在最短的时间里面针对问题"},{"start":245.168,"end":260.238,"text":"然後針對一些疑點來去向社會大眾做一個明確的解釋避免這些錯假訊息或者是認知操作有它的空間這是我們要持續努力好 我必須講這也是一套組合拳啦但是我也必須說就像剛剛部長一直強調的歷經了20年其實這些採購的標準沒有變那麼這20年來當總統的不是只有民進黨"},{"start":267.483,"end":270.365,"text":"還有國民黨也有馬英九也就是說這一連串的採購但是為什麼會在這個時候反而有關於報告上面也寫得非常清楚了就是廠商的合格的登記然後國際的這個所謂貿易的項目還有就是完稅證明其實20年來都沒有變化也沒有變化但是為什麼在這個時候會變成命題會不會是因為真的部長這就是因為現在我們"},{"start":295.498,"end":322.693,"text":"有另外8年1.25兆的國防預算要來了我只能夠說我們國家的這個身處特殊的一個國際環境那麼火藥原物料的取得確實是不容易的一件事情所以我們才會去清查過去20年到底是如何來進行這樣一個招標那我們也查資都是採公開招標都廠商的資格都沒有變"},{"start":323.593,"end":344.198,"text":"但是我們還是希望這些商員不要受到惡意的破壞干擾因為確實是不容易那如果受到干擾我們採購會變得蠻困難的那所以有一些誇大不實的渲染已經確實對我們國防安全已經造成了嚴重的危害"},{"start":344.898,"end":351.911,"text":"其實部長我想問一個比較輕鬆的啦就是說過去在這20年當中有沒有人真的是大剌剌說我是軍火商我是軍火商我來投標"},{"start":356.104,"end":375.332,"text":"有嗎過去其實說實話本席在跑很多新聞的時候多半幕後就說某某軍火商或某某太太但是這些人的背後其實也都是貿易商不是嗎那麼所以說我想知道的是如果就現在在野黨的質疑的話未來是不是我們要以標的為所謂某某軍火商"},{"start":378.894,"end":393.794,"text":"我來投標了這樣子才符合現在質疑的標準不然的話就像剛剛我很認同王定宇委員所提的很多的企業他們會做轉型本來我也提出了像比如YAMAHA做樂器的但他們現在也做引擎也做其他相關的這種軍工產業"},{"start":396.037,"end":411.211,"text":"那如果是這樣的話是不是這些產業都不能轉型做馬桶的一輩子要做馬桶然後呢蓋房子的一輩子要蓋房子只要他們做轉移就會被質疑那麼接下來我們是不是就是只有標明說我是軍火商我才能來賣火藥"},{"start":413.564,"end":439.424,"text":"我想重點就是這個廠商不管他的公司名稱是什麼那他只要有能夠從事國際貿易的業務那能夠拿到原廠的授權然後而且交貨經過光部嚴格的測試驗收合格合法的旅約這個才是一個重點因為他交不出貨我們就沒收旅約保證金並刊登停權這個就是一個最直接"},{"start":440.565,"end":450.412,"text":"對他的不能履業的一個監督那所以每一個會來投票場都是會要想清楚好 其實我也非常認同啦就是過去台灣的環境當中我們曾經有經歷過是想買武器錢準備好了其實是買不到的會有各種的阻撓然後讓這些人根本無法順利的把我們所需要的軍備或者是相關的這種軍備所需要的"},{"start":466.482,"end":481.889,"text":"原物料拿到我們台灣輸入到我們台灣的手上所以最重要的其實對我們來講我們是甲方能夠讓對方乙方履約我想這是最重要的但是同樣的我也要問喔就是沈記長在立法院的質詢當中提出了這個部分本來我要再接著質詢不過剛剛中科院有特別提到了那就是"},{"start":490.033,"end":510.328,"text":"沈記長的話到底是沒有完整的被陳述還是說沈記長所點出來的問題沒有被國防部或中科院重視到底是真的中科院變成了所謂的家族事業嗎然後偽造的工廠中科院真的沒有辦法來辨認他們嗎 來 院長"},{"start":515.287,"end":536.164,"text":"我們第一個我們先講家族事業好了這個按照行政法人法第20條的規定行政法人的首長和董事不得推薦三等級以內的人員進入這個行政法人來服務當然我們中科院規定的設置條例更嚴格我們是針對所有主管都不能推薦三等級以內的人親屬進來服務"},{"start":537.705,"end":561.137,"text":"那當然就是說中科院有一萬多個員工我們相對是屬於比較封閉型的業務性質所以我們裡面的夫妻裡面有73%是入院以後才結婚的就造成這個比例比較高但是這個我們也沒辦法明確去禁止那會變成如果就審計部的審計出來的規範的話那會不會變成要求他們其中有一位要離職"},{"start":562.718,"end":567.242,"text":"因為他們是入院後才結婚的我現在提出來不是要求而是這個會變成是審計部如果用到這個講法的話進去了認識了聯誼才結婚其實我相信很多比較封閉的環境一定會是這樣因為他們沒有機會但是如果審計部拿這個來做他們審計的要求的時候那會不會變成這樣"},{"start":587.371,"end":604.723,"text":"入院以後結婚我們當然不會在此限但是我們會把他的業務盡量不會有重疊的關係就是希望盡量讓他們在業務上面不要變成一條龍的狀態把他調到其他的部分好另外剛剛你有特別提到的就是希望財政部的關務署能夠協助你們在報關上面做一個連線的部分那麼什麼時候溝通過"},{"start":613.939,"end":631.89,"text":"呃 審計部的報告出來以後我們就直接用審計部的報告去跟關務署協調過好 那莫名而得到的回覆是什麼因為我們不屬於公部門所以沒有辦法直接連線所以是跟財政部嗎呃 關務署關務署回覆你們就說因為不是公部門所以那可不可以借用主席最後一點時間就是這樣子的連線"},{"start":634.051,"end":637.552,"text":"它可以造成什麼好的影響我覺得這個其實在質詢上面是必須講的雖然你們不是公部門那你們是行政法人但是我認為這個就是一個讓我們軍購跟軍事採購上面能夠更加透明化的一個方向"},{"start":651.974,"end":659.579,"text":"就是如果關務署可以給予這樣的連線好處是什麼如果沒有這個你們現在現行上遇到的狀況是什麼我必須說因為本席剛好過去是來自於台政委員會我剛剛聽到之後我非常在意這個問題如果他是有助於能夠讓我們軍事採購更透明化的話那我們就要努力的去做協調甚至於本席來做協調都沒有問題因為這個也可以杜絕今天我們在討論的這個題目上面大家認為的就是來源不明"},{"start":681.713,"end":683.915,"text":"或者是來源可能出問題或是來源去佐證或舉證的時候造成的所謂不必要的紛擾爭議或者是抹黑跟委員報告"},{"start":693.673,"end":717.783,"text":"關於中科院跟關務署原本是沒有連線的那經過我們這幾天我們跟部長跟我們相關單位我們研討這是一個可行就杜絕而後這些事情我們下期會研討來跟關務署來做好相關的協調是否把中科院納入直接可以連線的部會還有我們軍備局也許可以透過軍備局吧如果我們再跟關務署協調看看"},{"start":718.763,"end":735.933,"text":"好 我認為這樣的一個過程當中就像剛剛子薰也特別提到過的如果可以明確的了解產地然後輸出的地方 輸入的地方我覺得這個是有助於讓整體的軍事採購更加的透明化我期許有從這個方向如果需要的話本席都願意來做協助跟溝通好 謝謝委員好 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謝謝沈次長部長我想要再一次跟您確認說從什麼時候開始會全面禁止廚餘養豬116年1月1號"},{"start":29.206,"end":34.549,"text":"1月1號我必須在這裡讚許你說從今年10月開始爆發之後我們不斷的向您呼籲一定要全面禁止出於養豬也很感謝你從善如流能夠尊重然後聽取養豬戶的建議來協助保護養豬產業我想整個養豬產業聽到這件事情也非常的高興我也想接下來請問一下沈次長"},{"start":59.204,"end":83.264,"text":"那現在目前有關於廚餘去化目前台灣有哪些廚餘去化的方式呢是目前的處理的方式就是走再利用的方式是我們最鼓勵的那目前有再利用方式包括傳統的或快速的堆回或者是黑水門的再利用或者是生殖能源的熱能的一個再利用那哪一種是兩位最看好的呢"},{"start":84.585,"end":113.442,"text":"最快可以在這一年當中趕快把這個缺口補上的呢因為生殖能源廠的設置大概需要二到三年那目前有三個縣市往這個方向在規劃已經設的就是有兩個市一個是桃園一個是台中那未來會有南投以及台南跟高雄會加入生殖能源的投入所以未來的廚餘去化他們會等於是處理大部分嗎他們能夠處理多少呢"},{"start":114.683,"end":139.662,"text":"要看这个市场的趋势像现在走养猪场是因为它的成本最低所以现在有六成的厨余都跑到养猪场但基于风险的管控我们落日就一年了嘛那以后就禁止厨余养猪了嘛所以再利用设施就会上来那这样子我想要请问一下你有准备要补助这些县市政府盖这些厨里的"},{"start":140.542,"end":158.474,"text":"除以多元的再利用的跟委員報告再利用設施將來會收到處理的費用不管堆毀也好或者是黑水門處理也好產生源使用者附會他就必須要跟處理垃圾位處理一樣的方式目前給回收跟清除處理業者來處理處理"},{"start":159.895,"end":185.124,"text":"我舉一個例子啊我舉一個例子因為你們要處理的不只是你說他會賺錢等等但是呢前端你要先把它去化你才能夠你才能夠解決垃圾問題這是一個國家級的問題也絕對不是農業部或你環境部的問題這是一個很全面的問題我就先舉例假設蓋一座標準的廚餘資源化處理廠不管你用什麼方式"},{"start":186.284,"end":202.794,"text":"假設是2億或者5億那要落實一縣市一處理廠全台灣23個縣市全部蓋好那大概頂多啦如果抓5億下去算的話頂多100億那次長花100億可以解決全台灣的廚餘問題同時守護"},{"start":207.476,"end":218.634,"text":"兩千多億的這個養豬產業鏈這筆投資對於國家來說算不算是划算呢跟委員報告現在已經存在的量大概就有一千一百多噸"},{"start":219.929,"end":236.615,"text":"的一個再利用量包括民間的堆毀廠不管是傳統的或快速堆毀發酵那政府其實民間可以做的事情我們樂見民間來投資來興建所以你沒有打算鼓勵他們他們已經在做了他自然而然就會有有這樣的一個合理的利潤"},{"start":238.345,"end":257.25,"text":"那我再講一下就是這個末端處理啊就剛剛我看到其他委員也在問這也是我相當關心的因為在雲林縣我們在111年就率全國率先全國推動家用廚餘機的補助計畫那我不曉得說次長有沒有看到成效呢"},{"start":257.85,"end":268.634,"text":"跟委員報告雲林它禁止廚餘養豬但它主要的廚餘都送到南亞南亞再利用而且我必須要講你既然講了這個南亞再利用這個其實數據會說話南洋廠每天喔處理60公噸的這個廚餘那到現在喔已經處理了56000公噸的廚餘變成了32萬包的有機肥料叫雲蓋肥這也是農業部認證的"},{"start":284.841,"end":297.772,"text":"那這就是大家整天掛在嘴邊的循環經濟最好的模式啊所以也希望說環境部包括農業部大家應該把這個模式可以鼓勵其他縣市假設他們有廚餘去化問題的鼓勵他們趕快來執行嘛那我講的這個家用廚餘機的補助計畫我也希望說環境部主要是環境部來因為我覺得如果這筆錢叫農業部來出這沒意思嘛"},{"start":314.945,"end":342.867,"text":"農業部他是要顧好養豬業啊除離去化是你環境部的問題應該是說除於量是可以減少的那這個部分對於後端不管是焚化爐燃燒等等都很有幫助甚至還可以減少這個垃圾車的一些麻煩的工作那為什麼不把它納入你現在不是有一個什麼淨零綠生活計畫嗎能不能把除於居補助納入這個環境部的計畫之中呢"},{"start":343.941,"end":368.046,"text":"鹽土減量是一個好的方法那我們會來鼓勵啦但是因為垃圾的處理費用是由地方政府所以你的意思就是說我們環境部一毛都不出我今天就是來這裡說說話然後一毛不拔沒有打算要關心這個廚餘去化的問題大型的處理廠你也沒有打算補助小型的廚餘機你也沒有打算補助你今天就是來湊人數嗎"},{"start":371.554,"end":399.707,"text":"當然不是啊 是嗎不是湊人數 是委員邀請我們來我們來這邊專案報告的所以你們今天來專案報告就是說這個廚餘再利用跟你們環境部沒什麼關係不是 小錢也不花 大錢也不花到底你們是在做什麼好 沒關係 你先繼續在旁邊那個部長 我想要請問一下大痞鄉雲林大痞鄉有一個別稱是什麼 您知道嗎"},{"start":401.874,"end":404.276,"text":"他的特色農產品是什麼你知道嗎?"},{"start":404.276,"end":424.113,"text":"鹹菜對 非常準確就是台灣菜有一道菜叫做鹹菜裡面放的就是我們大脾香這個鹹菜也是我們台灣鹹菜的故鄉你知道全台灣有多少酸菜的生產量是在大脾製造嗎?"},{"start":425.66,"end":453.308,"text":"我覺得自打應該六七成以上是大概有八成有18萬噸的這個產量喔那您知道每年大概有多少產值嗎這個我沒有去統計我不瞭解大概是將近5億4.8億元那不管是產值還是產量雲林縣大坪鄉都被稱為是台灣酸菜的故鄉可以說是當之無愧那我想要請問部長是不是能夠在"},{"start":454.648,"end":478.428,"text":"我們大闢鄉做一個酸菜專區因為呢它的這個製作的過程我想您應該也相當了解就是要加鹽啊然後要脫水啊用重物壓出這個多餘的水分那如果不把它統一處理這個高鹽分的水的話可能會造成農地演化所以鄉公所在2003年就成立了這個專區但是呢"},{"start":483.052,"end":491.647,"text":"希望農業部能夠支持他們這個整個產業的永續發展喔能夠同意他們讓這些汝水再利用"},{"start":493.424,"end":512.774,"text":"我跟你們報告因為檢查這些他炸出來的東西因為高鹽分的部分那您剛才講的專區其實專區不是重點是怎麼樣把這些剩炸出來的這些水做有效的再利用的部分因為他本身如果不好處理的話他進到農田是一定是污染農田的部分"},{"start":513.554,"end":528.791,"text":"所以这个部分其实我在几年前就一直蛮关心这个议题然后看看有没有办法找到一些能够将这个盐分跟水分脱离的这个基础没错 这是正确的方向所以台大的研究团队就提出申请了"},{"start":529.432,"end":541.218,"text":"提出申請然後之前農業部都推給環境部今天環境部也在這裡但環境部他已經回文說申請是法性跟行政程序等細節應該洽農業部釐清但是農業部到目前沒有辦法回應台大團隊跟公所提出的申請我也希望說部長"},{"start":549.462,"end":555.988,"text":"今天既然在這裡您也支持說要這個大坪的酸菜專區然後要支持這個產業的話是不是能夠請農業部盡速的輔導他們趕快讓他可以上路否則這個台大的這個團隊跟公所"},{"start":569.038,"end":576.119,"text":"遲遲沒有得到回應然後呢而且我看到監察院也早在104年的調查報告裡面就寫說地方長年無法處理中央農政主管機關沒有給予及時跟必要的協助是不當的要求你們要研擬喔如何協助他們如何補助他們如何擴充處理設備強化減量跟再利用那部長我是不是可以拜託您喔"},{"start":597.103,"end":614.531,"text":"支持這個大品香酸菜永續經營的這個想法跟處理的方式呢我跟委員報告我們先處理這個技術面怎麼樣把這些這些酸菜水齁能夠經過一些技術把它做成鹽分分離這個如果處理好了以後現在"},{"start":615.151,"end":636.917,"text":"台大跟公所他們有申請學術個案的研究那他已經有非常好的一個成效所以他們送案子進去但是你們都一直沒有給他回應那拜託部長了解可以嗎我來親自了解以後然後看看那個技術面是可不可以做一些移轉那技術如果可行然後可以移轉的話後面就比較好辦啦"},{"start":637.938,"end":653.346,"text":"是那所以我在這裡拜託部長啊包括環境部我們不要再這個推來推去我們盡速的讓他落實下來讓大批成為一個台灣酸菜的故鄉之外也可以環境永續經營謝謝好謝謝這是一個"}]}},{"id":"166409","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166409","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da759065f6596d92b9ae5c2908415f8fac51cd3e8e52b0719441b97739c7deb8e227a905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:33:06 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剛才針對我們林業勤委員講說那個末端跟源頭的部分"},{"start":141.369,"end":170.455,"text":"我大概他們你剛才講說不是差22倍可是我是一直覺得說你是不是應該從源頭擴增更多的回收的清潔費用來讓他們生產這些垃圾的人的責任增加這個源頭這個是我們現在其實也報告委員因為我們希望說資源循環的這個促進法能夠推的話在源頭的處理就會有更有力道啦所以這樣的一個費用就有可能機會會鼓勵獎勵起來所以這個我也贊同源頭的一個費用要增多"},{"start":171.355,"end":191.754,"text":"那源頭減量這個關於營建廢棄物這個230萬噸這個部分是不是在運送的時候那些載運的車輛是不是要裝GPS讓他們就剛才講的智慧維理這個部分能夠一起加進去讓這些確實在清導這些廢棄物的這些營建廢棄物的這些車輛確實是清導到應該放置的地方"},{"start":192.595,"end":201.054,"text":"對 這個就是我們明年1月1號開始所有的這個營建土石方或是廢棄物的全部要裝GPS全部都要裝對 明年1月1號開始"},{"start":201.96,"end":224.481,"text":"現在回到原鄉的問題就是我們剛才之前講的馬太岸的那個煙色湖我發現說後來那些垃圾那麼多的垃圾你有去當地嗎有有聞到那些非常惡臭的味道那就是它西畔都很多掩埋場就這個時候就被沖出來了那我想知道全國有多少的西畔的掩埋場"},{"start":227.175,"end":252.535,"text":"或者是说有没有大略的数据或者说你大概知道大概范围在哪里有没有西畔的掩埋场这个数据我们在提供不过现在主要在西畔的掩埋场大多已经是封闭在海岸跟西畔的部分大部分已经封闭尤其是马太岸这件事情在光复它原来是在合体"},{"start":254.896,"end":279.49,"text":"算是以外的地區那是核體溢流之後產生的所以我一直覺得為什麼會開放這種比如說河川或是剛才我們昭偉講的在竹東的水質保護區會有這些垃圾掩埋場你不覺得應該要規避或是要遠離這些我們所謂的水質保護區嗎那個都幾十年前大家訂的可能幾十年前那個地方是沒有人居住的地方"},{"start":280.631,"end":305.216,"text":"回到那個廚藝養豬的問題花蓮的問題就是說他們現在是載送不出去然後也沒有量能可以處理所以現在可能一天可能可以多達大概61公噸可是處理的量能大概只有一半所以目前堆置的那個量已經是越來越多所以變成花蓮是雪上加霜又添災又加上這個廚藝的事情你覺得你要怎麼如何來幫助花蓮"},{"start":306.119,"end":325.284,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是那個鳳林的那個環科園區那個廚藥的處理廠因為這個馬太安的這個事件有稍微停頓了一下沒辦法營運所以造成他稍微堆置那我所知道的花蓮的這個垃圾是台內在做協助的那我們其實上禮拜也有跟特別請花蓮環保局做一個說明所以"},{"start":326.464,"end":342.969,"text":"我們近期還會再請他們做說明請他們再做規劃那他們目前是沒有特別跟我們提出什麼樣的需求但是我會請我們的署長再特別針對花蓮的情形看他們如何給他們更好的一個指導現在是屬於是可能是朝向全面禁止養豬對不對"},{"start":344.87,"end":363.766,"text":"對所以現在的養豬業者他們可能本來你們因為之前的規範說請他們裝鍋爐結果因為以後要禁止養豬所以他們希望他們能夠拆除鍋爐的設備我是覺得說這種強制他們拆除的動作會不會太草率因為"},{"start":364.486,"end":380.28,"text":"有的時候豬牠不一定都是吃冷的有的時候牠可能在冬天的時候要吃熱的所以這個部分有養豬業者跟我們講說他們願意配合國家的政策可是這個部分能不能有些不能太這個還是要農業部他們來訂這個政策可是如果說你們有做跨部會"},{"start":381.201,"end":396.33,"text":"那也跟委員報告因為花蓮的花蓮很早就進廚餘可是花蓮的廚餘都送到別的縣市現在別的縣市不讓花蓮的直接進來所以產生這個問題所以我們也鼓勵說花蓮這個縣能夠再積極多一點區劃的管道建立一個比較穩定常態性的跨區域"},{"start":397.09,"end":417.977,"text":"調度機制 比如說廚藥的或者是說像現在花蓮的垃圾可能沒有辦法及時處理因為現在有一個叫花蓮的台女的大卡在深圳資源中心 它的量也不夠因為又地震又颱風的所以它們一而再再而三發生這些天災的時候它的這些廢棄物堆積如山所以能不能幫花蓮想辦法"},{"start":419.918,"end":449.065,"text":"OK 这个其实也要地方他们来一起来做那特别是厨余的话生殖能中心如果起来的话就可以比较好的跨区的调度那其实我也拜托委员要跟各个地方的县市政府他们一定要对于环保多一点用心那其实这一次从厨余或是垃圾来看的话有些县市对于环保长期投入的不足是希望说有系统性的替代方案比如说跨区的转运跨县市的紧急应变专区或者是补助设置第二套的紧急那个"},{"start":449.785,"end":470.126,"text":"處理措施 設備這個我們來想辦法不然是跟委員報告現在大家的因為大家長期對環保不重視地方尤其是地方那造成說這些東西全部變成零幣設施那我希望部長多努力然後最後一個問題就是我們的生育率已經可能今年到達不了11萬嘛那有一個環境荷爾蒙的問題"},{"start":470.906,"end":492.865,"text":"我大家都知道环境二门大概都是从食物从容器这个部分来引起的所以可能在处理回收这个部分是不是力道不够或者是说我们的准确度不够又或者是我们的各方面的知识不够因为我知道美国在美国环境保护署在2015年它有一个新的演算法它对环境"},{"start":493.445,"end":513.15,"text":"荷爾蒙這些的物質或者是它怎麼深入各個家庭生活的領域我覺得它們都有些預測或者是規範可是台灣還沒有我所謂為什麼要提到生育率因為環境荷爾蒙會造成就是大概很多的不孕的一個後遺症所以我希望這個部分不僅"},{"start":514.19,"end":524.334,"text":"能夠改善以後也可以改善我們的生育率這樣好 這個部分我們有一個國家荷爾蒙的環境的這個調查的計畫那我們再提供給委員那我們會再來留意OK 好 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國家公園內又是野埋場然後經常又火災然後不只地面污染 還空氣污染這個你們有沒有專案好好去督導管理啊"},{"start":85.538,"end":107.219,"text":"好 謝謝委員那晨曦其實因為台南的我剛剛的我的簡報裡面都有特別提到台南的這個垃圾的產生量跟區劃量有一個很大的一個差距啦這個焚化爐量不足不過他們新的那個在晨曦附近新的這個預計近期應該幾個月之後有機會會可以開始啟動那這個啟動之後應該就會開始疏解這個什麼時候啟動"},{"start":111.905,"end":128.992,"text":"他因為測試的關係所以他在明年年中以後就會啟動明年年中才啟動嗎那他現在堆積如山還是現況嗎那像這樣子的一個垃圾山火災的情況你們要怎麼去因應呢就是其實也不只是他他其實是最矚目的"},{"start":129.292,"end":148.558,"text":"因為看起來台南它這個裸露的垃圾是全國第一高啦 堆的最多那其他地方也會有這一種 就是掩埋場火災然後你報告裡面提到說你們已經有開會但是開會什麼時候要做呢你們要去研議那一個它的消防因應的策略在哪裡"},{"start":149.378,"end":166.749,"text":"包委我們其實也有補助這個所謂的消防或是監控例如說紅外線然後這個消防涉水的一個設備看起來無效啊因為他的量實在太大而且他們這次台南因為風災之後他的大量的樹枝樹葉2021年他就開始火燒了跟這次也沒有關係了"},{"start":167.049,"end":189.936,"text":"其實這個已經很久了所以基本上第一個是未來我們如何再規範這個所謂的掩埋場或是佔治場它不能要如何去堆要如何放其實我們看到日本有一些限制不過這個是壓力會在於說我們台灣的土地沒有辦法像人家可以很那麼大的一個面積所以有辦法落實嗎其實是我們的土地面積而且我們的地小人手那怎麼辦"},{"start":191.076,"end":209.975,"text":"這個就要大家的努力第一個是說我們希望是說日本的經驗我們是不是可以拿來用第二個是如何預防預防就是說我們是不是有更好的消防的體系我也請我們同仁跟消防署聯繫針對這種掩埋場的事故如何救你們什麼時候才能研議出來"},{"start":211.056,"end":226.532,"text":"包括像日本的防災指引還有一旦事故的時候最快的時間最迅速的撲滅像這次台南真的太誇張了這個燒那麼久那我覺得對台南的人民真的不公平啊那個空汙然後對他健康的危害時間為期太久了"},{"start":227.913,"end":243.05,"text":"包委員那個台南那個基本上是堆的太多然後那個救火的方式我一直在問同仁說有沒有更新的方式來處理後來我們我去了之後協調說開了一個很多的水線三天內才把它鋪完所以基本上那個是一個很特別的案例那我們國內的"},{"start":244.311,"end":268.759,"text":"能夠針對那樣的案例去救火都是只能傳統的一個方式所以第一個是我們現在會請我們這個化學署防管署跟消防署提一個計畫到底找這些消防專業針對這種掩埋場大型的火災要怎麼救你們什麼時候要研議出來我們希望是明年四五月的時候我們要開一個這個消防因為這個是消防專業跟垃圾處理專業兩個專業明年四五月才有開會但是我們的"},{"start":270.659,"end":288.905,"text":"這個所謂的掩埋場 戰事場的堆置的管理的指引什麼時候會出來現在內部已經出來了然後我們希望二月的時候什麼時候公布開始做我們希望二月底的時候二月底的時候各縣市就要按照你的指引新的堆放就要按照你的指引的方式來堆置我們希望二月底的時候可以來完成我覺得這個問題一定要處理因為台南市它的垃圾裸露17.1萬公噸 全國第一"},{"start":296.468,"end":313.261,"text":"你可以看到他們自己在報告上面官方的都說哎呀我都做得很好我已經封閉附土綠化這報告是作假報告結果現場都是垃圾堆積如山他的綠化到底在哪裡這個你中央你有沒有"},{"start":313.641,"end":331.598,"text":"定期去稽查 你環境部就是有沒有針對特定幾個譬如說台南他垃圾全國裸露第一那你就應該針對他垃圾堆放的方式還有他自己地方政府所宣稱的報告跟實際的情況你應該要去查核啊看起來他這個做的其實並不好"},{"start":332.578,"end":354.531,"text":"包委員你說的其實他真的有做我們定期都有去查核但是他這個今年從7月開始新增的 堆置的他們台南市主要集中在某幾個地方啦所以他的這個點就堆置的特別多但他就是美化他現場有堆放的都沒有講啊很多耶而且你們自己官方報告他就是第一名嘛另外一個他涉及到的其實是那個環境的議題因為他離這個曾穩溪口濕地只有3.6公里"},{"start":361.255,"end":383.552,"text":"然後他又在國家的這個公園裡面然後他一期二期三期四期一直去開發聽說第四期還是我們的賴總統擔任賴市長的時候核定的那這個不是跟你的環境保護就是完全是背離的在國家公園然後他又處理不好然後還可以一直擴增你不覺得這個問題還蠻大的嗎"},{"start":385.514,"end":401.892,"text":"這個有時候我們台灣地下人稠所以如果大家都是用這麼嚴格的標準弄我們根本沒有掩埋場所以基本上這個東西有先來因為這個地方早就有這樣的一個東西我知道 但要輔導啊包括它後面的幾期它如果還要擴增那應該是採取更嚴格的標準"},{"start":402.832,"end":423.318,"text":"他如果他的焚化爐可以啟動那他們台南也有一個計畫說他們舊的焚化廠或是新的我希望你們好好去督導就是各地的這一些譬如說指標性的他裸露垃圾量特別高的我希望中央你們可以加強你們的督導那我們不只垃圾的問題我們最近的廚餘"},{"start":427.219,"end":445.284,"text":"噴滿為患 就是說這個是團善業者他們現在最近也告訴大家說沒有像你們畫的圖卡這麼的美好你們圖卡做得很好啦這個不可養豬之後他的去化管道這個有清潔隊有乙親業者看起來好像都沒有問題結果"},{"start":447.365,"end":473.405,"text":"這一個團善業者他直接就發文他說有問題呀很有問題而且他的發文裡面告訴大家說他們都是比較能忍的人如果當有人已經出來發聲就代表不是只有一個個案而是有很多業者都面臨到現在的廚餘不知道去哪裡因為你們的清運量能不足而且還運費暴漲"},{"start":476.307,"end":497.765,"text":"這個你們中央的督導責任到底在哪裡你們好像報告都說都沒有問題去化什麼都沒有問題結果這個是他們在第一線就覺得很有問題啊現在到底有問題還是沒問題包委員你沒有追蹤這個陳明信理事長的他也稱讚我們因為我們上禮拜也跟他線上的跟各縣市環保局在開會逐一來盤點"},{"start":498.806,"end":523.914,"text":"所有的一個問題因為有些縣市其實他的這個已清上不去暫時沒有出去所以他有一點點的小狀況那我們也協調了各縣市環保局能夠給他做一個協助所以委員其實這個都有在處理那這個是各縣市他們第一線來負擔我們來協助所以也拜託委員不要說環境部失職做什麼事我們很努力在做也希望你可以看到一些實際上的情況但是現在就是問題還存在我直接問環管署署長"},{"start":526.155,"end":542.455,"text":"當問題發生的時候你說2月11號你們會開會請問你開了什麼然後這些輕運量能增加了多少運費還要再漲嗎然後現在到底有哪幾個縣市是有困難的那你要提供什麼協助"},{"start":542.955,"end":553.765,"text":"跟委員報告12月11號開會召集各縣市環保局跟這個團散業者一起來談竹縣來盤點現在哪些縣市有困難"},{"start":558.369,"end":581.594,"text":"現在比較困難的大概是直轄市的部分當然如果以陳明信理事長來看他是在新北市他比較困難不過經過現場的溝通原來是溝通有點誤會環保局的副局長也當場承諾跟陳明信將他的問題解決"},{"start":582.754,"end":611.633,"text":"那這個清運的運費的部分如果因為太高我們也認為不合理的時候就會請環保局他的清潔隊來協助當然以輕業者因為他清運的特性以往是清運垃圾很少清運廚藝所以他的車輛可能不符實用但是這個部分我們也可以來幫忙解決也同意他們自己去租車或運用自己的車再運到環保局指定的地點以上"},{"start":612.554,"end":635.064,"text":"那你們運費有補貼嗎抱怨這個月到這個月底有補貼都有補貼這個月底12月30要補貼所以剛剛署長提到的就是直轄市比較有困難量比較大那都解決了嗎經過你們開完會之後基本上他們現在在因為我們是上禮拜四有在開會所以這個禮拜就不會看到有一桶一桶的廚藝堆在那邊沒有人收"},{"start":635.704,"end":654.592,"text":"還是有一些個案因為其實委員這是一個每個縣市環保局他一直去協調面對的問題而且我們那麼多的學校有些學校要比較偏遠所以其實要一個是一個系統化去解決的問題所以委員請你放心我們會努力把它完成所以拜託委員說我們沒有無為而治我們每天都在處理這個事情"},{"start":654.952,"end":684.547,"text":"好 这个是无论是垃圾或者是厨余我觉得你们作为中央的主管机关都有督导跟协助地方去改善的责任那这个是我们现在看到的问题我希望你们就是加把劲特别是厨余的问题因为这个新的政策已经既然是中央的政策你的配套当然就是要跟上那如果现在有没有做好的部分我们希望你们就是要发挥及时去协助的功能跟地方一起把这个问题好好的解决好不好好"},{"start":684.788,"end":685.172,"text":"谢谢委员"}]}},{"id":"166407","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166407","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906b4dd7141e7b598a1e3a1989ac581c228e8e52b0719441b972cb1202a763c6df65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:19:30 - 10:36:18","影片長度":"00:16:48","會議時間":"2025-12-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21 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王委員我今天先不從個案來談我們先講一個大的架構就是說國防供應鏈我們一直希望能夠在台灣自給自足盡量的滿足因為這不僅是經濟跟產業這也牽涉到我們的戰備眾生所以怎麼樣把供應鏈的眾生擴大"},{"start":34.432,"end":52.017,"text":"這是一個命題但是擴大之後他來投標我們今天看到有人在資格上質疑有疑慮做這個怎麼做那個做馬桶的怎麼做抗氮板做裝潢的怎麼來做炸藥在資格上有人在這上面有疑慮那我們應該好好的面對這個問題"},{"start":53.717,"end":64.207,"text":"第一個我們在投標上我發現我們國防部在說明的是第一個基本條件叫做合法基本條件可能他的營業登記項目可能資本額"},{"start":65.27,"end":92.381,"text":"那部長也是法律人坦白講在台灣齁這個基本條件的符合比較容易啦那個有一個凱斯國際從國宅一路弄到進出口貿易都可以做你只要願意勾啦你去做營燈的時候你願意勾通通可以勾啦所以營業項目根本就不是可以刁難的就是造船的他搞不好可以去造飛機做成衣做內衣的他會去做數位迷彩做腳踏車輪框的"},{"start":94.127,"end":112.094,"text":"搞不好去做飛彈彈箱我現在講的都是有實質的案例做得不錯也就是說基本條件是一個最低的消極資格另外一個叫做專業條件現在被人家挑剔的是這一塊就是說他專業的條件到底有沒有符合所以我們應該要思考所謂的專業條件是什麼"},{"start":115.003,"end":142.564,"text":"合理的專業條件是什麼他就可以進入到這個產業我們可以擴大我們眾生我們希望原來在做機密機械的他可以來造飛機啊我們希望原來那個其實CNC車床齁要來做砲管做彈藥貴姊手娘啦他那個技術上是雷同的就是說我怎麼樣讓他跨過那個專業的門檻所以只看基本條件容易被人質疑專業不足那但是如果只重視過去時機"},{"start":144.994,"end":170.511,"text":"我都懷疑這次有人 怎麼這個 那個沒有做如果只重視過去的時機就犯了我們過去幾十年台灣的軍工業長期被同一群人把持價格高 品質差而且他根本不是自己做 他轉個手找別人來做我相信在這邊夠資深的或者資深的媒體記者應該都知道過去的軍工業就是那一群人然後投標資格交榜上過去五年內有沒有供應什麼 有沒有做什麼"},{"start":171.471,"end":185.359,"text":"連我們中科院那個塔台的東西齁只因為民航局加一個過去有時機就通通沒辦法處理所以這兩個要平衡我不知道部長有沒有認同我這樣講法就是說我們在建構戰略這個供應鏈的縱深它的重要性是什麼"},{"start":187.394,"end":201.133,"text":"我想就今天大家在質疑的這個案子它的一個重點就是說它不是屬於國內有自治產能的如果屬於有國內自治產能的譬如說我們通常會有一些工程的案子那我們就會要求它有時機"},{"start":202.935,"end":231.34,"text":"時機嘛 但是問題是這個不是有國內自治產這我們國內沒辦法做啦對 所以他的重點在條件上面來講也就是他在履約的時候他最重要最重要就是要拿到輸出國的輸出許可對 所以部長我現在要講的就這一塊專業條件要讓國人了解比方說我在國內的過去的實質的績效其實只能當指標一我建議軍備局可以我們本來就有防場制度嘛我們要確保都是made in Taiwan嘛"},{"start":232.626,"end":246.857,"text":"這家公司願意投入他有沒有買相關的機台有沒有取得相關技術的認證就是在國內的生產我去房產你根本就沒有啊你沒有機台你沒有這樣的材料你跟我說你賣的在台灣我都懷疑過減稅你知道嗎"},{"start":248.178,"end":262.099,"text":"從那邊繞到越南過來的所以我們本來現有機制就有國內生產過去有實質績效我們還要仿廠咧你的機台符不符合標準你的製程有沒有經過認證你的材料在哪裡取得的有沒有Made in China的材料這個是國內的"},{"start":263.621,"end":281.462,"text":"那我們在專業背景上應該要加上就是說如果是對外採購的輸出國的輸出許可這個其實屬於專業的部分那個輸出許可要拿到國務院認證沒那麼簡單輸出國的許可還有一種是比方說我們的F16或者我們一些像對美採購的軍品"},{"start":282.683,"end":308.401,"text":"它的維修、維保是要認證的有沒有取得原廠跟美方的認證或者我們跟某一國買的某一個機台有沒有取得該國的輸出許可該國的原廠的技術認證這個叫專業背景所以如果某公司過去可能做某個行業是跟軍工業無關可是發現這有商機他公司要擴大投資那我就要看在國內你有什麼機台你有什麼能量"},{"start":309.221,"end":335.009,"text":"你如果是要進口你有沒有輸出國的輸出許可你如果是進來的是技術跟服務你有沒有得到認證跟授權我這樣講應該沒錯嘛所以就是說我想以這個不同的這個方式我們有不同的這個有關的一些對他的一些履驗能力的一個審核所以我在這一頁我要提醒軍備局就是說不能全部只看過去的時機那會被少數人壟斷"},{"start":336.129,"end":363.813,"text":"可是你在開發新的供應商的時候一定要注意到他的能耐他的國內生產的量能跟原物料的來源如果是進口商的話他有沒有取得相關國家政府的認證許可等等這個叫做專業背景所以現在呢叫做這個岳飛打張飛嘛你就拿消極的基本條件去打專業條件做馬桶是哪裡對不起你祖上八代了啦"},{"start":366.175,"end":379.673,"text":"坐腳踏車的是哪裡做錯了為什麼要瞧不起這些行業呢所以我這邊第二頁就看了我後來去找了一下資料合成我們從小就知道合成是做馬桶做磁磚的啊可是合成現在做抗盪磚甲"},{"start":381.135,"end":392.883,"text":"人家有投入這樣的設備去做 做得好不好你們去驗 我不幫他背書或者像洪森 洪森是美方認為是世界一流的車業一般來做基準的呢 那我們現在講這個做漁船的怎麼跑來做軍艦的那個車業 那外行的嘛"},{"start":396.866,"end":422.89,"text":"或者像全訓 全訓呢 它是做半導體原件製造的它現在轉過來做相關功率的又比方說榮德造船 它本來是做客輪的 它現在做軍工的那另外我剛才提到的 有一家玩具公司啊我們小時候買玩具是買他們家的啊講他名字也沒關係啊 那個雷虎啊 雷虎是做玩具的啊做玩具的怎麼跑來做無人機 還要丟炸彈"},{"start":424.266,"end":450.883,"text":"那就荒謬嘛 人家已經轉型或者擴大增加產能我一樣 我提例子我對這些公司 行號 我們也沒有背書你們還是要依照專業去我只告訴說 台灣的中小企業很厲害啦以前埃及要買漁網做皮箱的 明天就做漁網啦以前跑到阿拉伯 飛機都不會坐阿拉伯我們不會講 在地上沙子上畫圖他就可以交鐵鎚給他彈性很高 但是我們軍方的採購不能看這個我剛才講"},{"start":453.188,"end":468.628,"text":"他的專業的成分有沒有具備所以像剛才講某一個腳踏車做輪框的做輪框的我也是在媒體撈到這家這家公司做輪框的現在他用那個特殊材質做我們的飛彈箱做得不錯啊"},{"start":469.713,"end":496.64,"text":"所以這裡面重點在哪裡呢有一些行業是從本業延伸擴大比方說原來合成是做陶瓷他把本業往前延伸做抗盪陶瓷這叫本業延伸有的叫跨業投資本來呢我是做這一個比方說本來呢像我來舉個例子比方說像全訓原來做的是半導體他現在轉過來做這一項"},{"start":499.241,"end":510.197,"text":"舉個另外跟我們行業無關的像台塑 它是做塑膠的啊可是廠跟醫院我們都知道是台塑的我們現在要不要開個記者會這塑膠要看人家貴心中啦"},{"start":512.155,"end":540.903,"text":"罔顧人命你不會被笑死嗎他跨業我們要看的是什麼我們要看的是他的產品跟服務有沒有符合買方的需求有沒有達標價格及技術是否具備競爭優勢我們如果是看資格的那就要看他的資格限制如果是比價的就是看價格有沒有比人家低大概就看這兩個我們是買方我不管你原來做什麼行業的你的消極資格符合你的專業背景的資格有取得輸出許可"},{"start":541.223,"end":566.262,"text":"那就來比價啊 你敢押標啊你沒辦法履約的話我就要沒收你幾千萬的押標金啊我確保買方 也就是軍方消費者可以買到合格的 達標的甚至於相對品質比較好或相對價格比較低的這才叫做一個完整的採購鏈我們才能去建構台灣不同行業要跨界去進入到軍工業建構我們的軍工供應鏈戰備眾生我不知道我這樣講部長認不認同"},{"start":568.203,"end":586.179,"text":"所以不同的這個我想相關的公安有不同的履歷能力的要求那我還是再次強調原物料的從國外進口的他重點就在於說他能不能拿到當地政府的這個輸出許可的一個證明而且拿到這個原廠製造的證明文件那個叫做專業背景嗎"},{"start":586.959,"end":611.052,"text":"對 那這個拿得到我想他才會可能來進行投標因為他不然會面臨無法履約的風險這些個案我們原來也都沒有去探究啦是有人提出來我們才去看喔好 他原來做什麼行業他到底是本業延伸或者多角化跨業投資我管你投資什麼重要是我要跟你買的時候你交付的東西合不合我的要求有沒有具備專業背景而專業背景 國內製造背景"},{"start":613.653,"end":631.127,"text":"進出口商有進出口商的專業要求嘛所以單純從他營業項目挑一項喔他做這個做麵包的怎麼跑來做這個我覺得這樣子是邏輯跳太快以外他其實在摧毀台灣建構這一個供應鏈的縱深的過程"},{"start":631.747,"end":650.377,"text":"那內容如果有人模不章違法該送辦就送辦啊但是你不能把這個模式整個說不行一定保障原來有在做軍工業有時機的那其他的都不行那我們怎麼擴大怎麼產生競爭力或怎麼引進新創Enduro原來不是在做軍工業的耶Enduro原來是在做那個資訊的"},{"start":651.926,"end":664.357,"text":"或者以色列某一個廠商他原來呢是在做駭客的現在他擴大他做防駭客所以這個東西其實在軍工業裡面國防部要嚴格把關就是基本條件跟專業條件而專業條件最容易"},{"start":668.52,"end":686.306,"text":"綁住特定人這一個要很橫平的去做處理所以我希望軍備局就這個課題確實人家說做這個行業怎麼下來做這個那就要好好說明基本條件符合專業條件在哪裡他的專業條件他有拿到美國政府或者國務院或者相關的輸出許可"},{"start":686.926,"end":709.241,"text":"他的交貨要押標多少那如果不能達標我要沒收而這一個火藥是在國內根本沒辦法生產一定要對外採購的那任何人取得輸出許可都來投標嘛價低者得品質高者得嘛這樣子完整來論述比較和平否則揭露這些攻擊這些甚至於哪一些有的沒有的去牽扯我就說台灣的"},{"start":710.262,"end":738.391,"text":"所有你去看營業登記齁那個勾的選項多到你會覺得很好笑做不蠟甲的做內衣的這邊搞不好在做五金你知道嗎做水桶的這邊呢在做那個汽車的什麼電零件的台灣的中小企業那個營業登記齁就像凱斯國際一樣可以一直勾一直勾一直勾無限勾啊你只要不違法我們沒有什麼可以非難他的齁好所以以上就這一個部分我反而是透過這個案例希望軍備局跟相關單位在軍事採購上"},{"start":740.331,"end":764.319,"text":"國內採購我們應該要具備哪些基本條件跟專業條件而專業條件不要拘泥於既有的應該去限定房產技術授權那如果是採購的我們國內沒有製造對外採購的他要具備哪些要件把它寫清楚讓國人知道這一個不是單純那一句話挑他一個營業項目然後連結到他這個採購案所以這樣不行那不行那我們這照要不要買"},{"start":766.485,"end":784.6,"text":"這種性能的炸藥其實是有必要的那不買爽到誰高興到誰所以以上這個是這個部分那我多問一題馬防部的這一題我一直覺得很好奇馬防部的案子我就不再細說了我其實覺得很痛心"},{"start":786.958,"end":812.272,"text":"一個市官長市都二等長三等長或上市加上外導加給作戰加給每個月薪水你說好或不好比社會大眾來看其實還算可以怎麼會為了每個月兩千塊到三四千塊錢去把賬號出租給詐騙集團而且看起來是整串的變成賈鶴道修法那我要問的基本解問題"},{"start":814.148,"end":837.135,"text":"現在涉案人數到底多少是367還是31我想就這個部分因為現在檢調單位在偵查我想我們也不適宜公開在這邊軍方自己應該有去調查我們現在現役的涉案有多少我想有啊 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是不是請農業部陳部長好 我們再請陳部長部長 第一個問題請教您您知道日本一年入境的人數是多少人我告訴你 4000萬台灣一年入境的人數大概多少人我告訴你 800萬"},{"start":34.494,"end":62.1,"text":"所以入境日本的人數是台灣的五倍那他們也很多機場也很多港口他們所有的港口和機場針對入境旅客有沒有針對手提行李或者針對這個非洲諸位異區來源國有做過任何手提行李的安檢我所瞭解是沒有沒有嘛入境人口是五倍那我們他們為什麼沒有"},{"start":63.123,"end":91.068,"text":"最主要是我們的廚餘有直接進到我們租的衛生系統日本是經過那個飼料化以後再進到裡面所以本身的這些風險會比較低你看 入境是我們五倍而且他們沒有入境的這個鎖定性的安檢所以代表他們做法 正確的我們應該日本學習上個月 我們不是組個團嗎貴部也有派同仁去環境部也派同仁去"},{"start":91.883,"end":108.099,"text":"三個半小時深入討論還有跟這個相關學者把整個日本的這個處理處理的系統做了很完整的介紹為全程參與為提出很多的問題我想農業部同仁回來有沒有跟您報告有"},{"start":109.232,"end":137.408,"text":"我們是不是就把日本那一套建立起來我跟你講我們現在現在就要參考日本的那個eco feed的一個辦法然後去做這個廚餘的飼料化的一個相關的規劃要有一個專責單位去推動要有一個專案小組去推動把日本那一套建立起來啊那我們就可以高枕無疑為什麼因為不可能透過廚餘產生病菌然後變成這個非洲豬瘟的這個感染第一個他們加護廚餘的減量"},{"start":140.322,"end":155.692,"text":"他們自己在這個所謂在烹煮食物的時候他們就量度為初了就是說你要吃多少他們就煮多少所以很少食物的浪費另外他們有一些加護廚餘的這個處理機或者乾燥機的補助大碗嗎 烏蛙"},{"start":160.33,"end":187.899,"text":"有些縣市比方說以前在南投在雲林在屏東針對家戶廚餘處理機你把它乾燥化把廚餘把它這個去水化它就變成一般廢棄物它就可以進焚化爐結果不會損害焚化爐對不對所以現在我有提案希望你們跟環境部在你們這個所謂應變小組裡面能夠編列預算就像這個經濟部有個節能措施"},{"start":189.427,"end":214.565,"text":"節煙能設備的補助比如說節煙能冷氣或冰箱的補助每年度都編列10億還是20億來汰換節煙能設備來增購節煙能設備以來我們是不是可以用一定的補助來提高國人在家戶使用廚餘處理機的意願讓每個家戶的廚餘量可以減少"},{"start":216.689,"end":239.755,"text":"這個部長您的看法是第一個我跟委員報告就是台灣的那個料理的習慣跟日本是不一樣的那我們現在跟環境部在共同推這種就是吃多少煮多少的這個部分就是等於我們的廚藝的減量這是非常重要的那第二個您剛才說的就是說廚藝機的部分其實在先前也曾經跟環境部做一些討論"},{"start":240.715,"end":262.887,"text":"那後來我們跟一些家庭在討論的過程中就算做了這些變成堆肥以後那台灣本身不見得是堆肥喔它處理完它變一般的廢棄物喔對 那相對的在這個過程中因為我們台灣的也許等一下環境部可以補充就是我們的廚餘的我們是強調再利用"},{"start":263.487,"end":282.381,"text":"那日本的家務廚餘是直接進到焚化爐去的這兩個的那個再利用的邏輯是不一樣的部分所以沒有辦法說百分之百不照他們沒有再利用那我們再利用的這個主要的目的是什麼我想整個廚餘再利用的部分只是去化廚餘嘛 對不對"},{"start":283.598,"end":305.15,"text":"你是去化廚餘嘛去化廚餘你當作一般非機物處理也是一種處理方式如果再利用利用的好的話其實它本身就是一個剩餘資源它可以真正的產生那個價值它不是為了去化而去化這樣子你要再利用啊要有科學的方式是也有安全的方式低風險的方式對就所謂Eco-feed是"},{"start":306.09,"end":317.258,"text":"所以你家屋的部分没有那事业非其物的部分呢不要包括这个团散或者这个他们餐厅或者是相关的这个团体里面他们有明确的整个流程"},{"start":318.137,"end":337.985,"text":"把這個收集起來然後在專用的這個特殊的這個廠商裡面去做分區分區之後做Ecofit對 這個就是我們要努力的目標不是說兩三年這幾年才有的他們已經行之二十幾年了所以他們高枕無憂他們不需要派那麼多人力在邊境做這個手提行李的檢查"},{"start":339.921,"end":367.242,"text":"所以把日本這一套建立起來要多久時間我想我們現在已經開始在做規劃那我們初步是希望說我們先用一個其中的共同珍珠中心去把它做轉型變成一個只收事業廚餘或其他的食品下腳料然後變成這種eco-feed這樣的一個產品那這個部分我想我們已經在做了共同珍珠中心那你處理事業廚餘對不對"},{"start":369.571,"end":375.602,"text":"還有一些食品的下繳料的部分還有一些群內的下繳料果菜公司那種你說事業屬於比方說這個夜市的小吃單算不算事業屬於"},{"start":380.489,"end":402.722,"text":"我第一個部分我想後續的部分我想我們會請續產試驗所還有我們也跟台肥做溝通那台肥也很樂意進場來共同努力這個目標所以你要讓大家知道什麼叫事業處理定義是什麼要很明確這個我想環境部有非常明確的一個定義讓大家都了解那家戶處理怎麼處理事業處理怎麼處理"},{"start":404.059,"end":408.649,"text":"二分法啦加五廚餘你要減量你可以用所謂的這個廚餘處理機你可以透過補助"},{"start":412.235,"end":440.277,"text":"提高這個家戶的意願每一家戶按照他的這個食物的用量有不同容量的廚藝處理機把廚藝減量那事業廚藝的部分你怎麼樣把它有效的做這個集合然後這個去處理然後EcoFitEcoFit還比現在的飼料還更便宜對不對對也節省這個養豬戶的這個飼料成本"},{"start":442.636,"end":470.435,"text":"這是很好的做法那我一樣說到現在好像我們已經慢了日本二十幾年那我再請教你最後一個問題整個系統建立起來大概要多久如果變成類似日本的那個ecofit我想至少要三年三年到三年的期間那如果說利用現有的共同政治中心的話應該兩年應該可以做得起來政治中心是一個過渡性的方案你最後還是要學日本那一套對"},{"start":472.336,"end":498.605,"text":"日本如果他没有专利授权的话应该可以马上就可以把这个整个制度引进过来吗对他有现有的设备是可以可以做引进的你如果没有什么专利什么的不需要授权你可以专利你可以引进马上把这个制度把它建立起来你三年之内我们就不怕有什么非洲猪瘟的问题了因为变成一个安全的这个ecofit而且减少成本最重要"},{"start":500.168,"end":525.133,"text":"而且我們需要每個旅客入境的時候都要有鎖立行李的安檢這也是會增加一些旅客的不便對 如果禁止廚藝養豬這個政策後續落實的時候那相關的這些邊境的壓力就會變小因為最主要就是含肉製品如果進到廚藝系統會造成一些問題所以這也是我們共同努力的目標所以這個"},{"start":527.85,"end":554.355,"text":"日本的做法值得我們借鏡我已經很具體的提供了一些做法而且這些相關的程序那天是三個承辦科的科長農林水産省花很長時間做很詳細的介紹這個雖然是日文的資料我想你們一定有辦法變消化系統變成我們這個我們已經成立一個專案小組現在在做這樣的所以您說是三年三年就把日本那一套建立起來"},{"start":555.765,"end":571.481,"text":"包括那個廠最主要是建廠比較慢技術的導入比較快建廠我覺得你只要有一個專業小組推動的話建廠也不是太大困難三年已經很寬裕了我希望說就按照你所說的三年就把日本那一套全部引進"},{"start":572.898,"end":589.83,"text":"那我們有eco feed然後家戶廚餘也減少不過最重要的是我們也會在這段時間去了解這個因為你變成eco feed以後市場也要接受所以這樣的一個飼料配方也要讓我們的養豬戶能夠習慣跟使用"},{"start":590.33,"end":617.654,"text":"我想這個也是要共同去做的這個時候就會開始去做調查對 我們現在已經在做這個部分日本也有很多養殖戶啊日本也有很多養殖戶他們可以用ecofeed可以接受代表說台灣應當也可以接受所以這個時間你們應該去做一些survey會 我們會來做像日本大概只有6%在用這個就三年時間我們就要把邊境把這個所有的這個廚藝的問題全部徹底解決透過減量 加護的減量透過世界廚藝的這個ecofeed"},{"start":619.304,"end":624.917,"text":"您有把握嗎 三年時間我覺得三年應該可以做得到就跟日本完全一樣"},{"start":626.092,"end":653.197,"text":"沒有 日本的沒有辦法我們可以參照日本這樣的Eco-free的部分所以我們把我們的廚藝的部分能夠再利用包括現在的生食能對不對因為我們台灣的廚藝再利用跟日本的系統是不一樣的那你贊不贊成跟環境部共同編列預算來補助每一家戶去購買這個所謂家戶的補助我覺得這個還要內部討論因為這個部分可能有不同的看法所以我們還會再跟環境部一起討論環境部要講一下環境部講一下"},{"start":654.673,"end":675.675,"text":"委員你講到那個廚餘的處理機的部分那廚餘的產生源將來如果不能夠把廚餘再養豬的時候他一定會衍生成本出來但是他在這個處理的過程當中他把80%的水分把它去掉了他的垃圾需要處理的那個廚餘量就被乾燥以後減量很多他省下了處理的費用"},{"start":676.135,"end":698.26,"text":"那個對他來講購買這個處理處理機就已經是划算了但現在有些家戶主動的自主性的去買處理機我們都樂觀其成那至於要不要每個家戶去補這個真的需要再評估評估什麼因為你在處理的過程當中你已經把水分乾燥你就減量了你就省下了將來處理的處理費用了"},{"start":700.675,"end":720.306,"text":"對啊 那你就可以幫一般的這是我們的一個選擇啦但是要不要用政府的方式去補助這可以再評估啦你要提供一些誘因啦我覺得你要減量就是政府要像節能的這個節能家電補助也是政府編定預算去補助啊可是他沒有很大的這個動力來把這個家電變成節能的"},{"start":722.222,"end":742.317,"text":"因為你換了節電加電你這當然就減少能源嘛會節電嘛那你這個給它補助之後你的垃圾就減量了你的廚藥就減量了是不是我覺得應該可以跨部會環境部跟農業部應該一起研究我希望這個應該政府要編定預算來鼓勵媒家戶能夠有自己的這個廚藥處理機謝謝好 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謝謝新任主席 請部長有請部長欸 蘇委員好部長辛苦了謝謝我問三個問題 簡單明瞭第一個 現在台灣的露天的垃圾場還有幾座33座那個 那個圖"},{"start":33.7,"end":34.242,"text":"沒有 下一張這個 這個怎麼63"},{"start":42.458,"end":66.996,"text":"以前200多座嘛這個應該是以前 還沒有處理的那你現在這些露天的你給人家說2026年要全部產品你是要怎麼產品第一個是附土 第二個是打包不是產品 附土打包產品要等到焚化爐的量能夠才慢慢的把它處理 還有一段時間"},{"start":68.348,"end":91.843,"text":"所以就蓋著蓋著蓋著 又要倒零因為這個掩埋本來就是垃圾處理的方式之一但是我們現在我們先解決因為裸露的過去實在太多去年我上任的時候五十幾座甚至有人號稱百月 事實上是五十三座現在是我們希望能夠減少因為住在附近的民眾真的很可憐"},{"start":92.483,"end":106.428,"text":"所以我們是希望承諾說先把它蓋起來然後之後呢我們這個等到焚化爐的量夠之後一步一步的再來處理那像台南那個那前幾天燒起來垃圾山"},{"start":107.881,"end":121.635,"text":"恢修是很平常的事情又很難破壞因為你的水車去到那裡都要捏一捏水車載五檔六檔的水到那裡就全部散了就完了"},{"start":124.258,"end":143.785,"text":"所以只要垃圾山火燒都很難撲滅一燒就是一個禮拜 兩個禮拜 再次噴污染非常嚴重現在還有四個縣沒有焚化爐焚林 南島 花蓮 新的館"},{"start":146.016,"end":158.428,"text":"新竹他已經在試營運了南投他自己我所知道他們地方要發飆然後澎湖他們自己有在討論其實我應該不太會發飆吧所以這是"},{"start":167.276,"end":185.474,"text":"沒辦法驗收 他們現在都是驗買還是拖延到別的地方我還記得南島都拖在台中刺燒嘛現在還有嗎現在因為台中自身難保所以他都還是自己有委託給別的縣市再處理啦但是等於是說量還是沒辦法去劃"},{"start":186.835,"end":212.222,"text":"所以還是要趕快給他們蓋啦我們屏東分類的很好所以效果不錯是工商不發達還是怎樣 垃圾量太少還是分類很好他們很努力啦所以屏東的這個原來的這個垃圾露天的這個裸露的這個其實已經沒有了沒有 黃寮那個好像也都沒了嘛對 沒有了 解決了好 第二個問題那個"},{"start":216.892,"end":228.162,"text":"好 台灣黑熊往下跑日本棕熊也往下跑台灣的石斛也往下跑結果日本那邊有報說這跟光電盤有關的 保定是怎樣"},{"start":232.743,"end":251.92,"text":"這個我沒有特別的研究啦我會再來跟這個農業部來探討一下他說這個因為光電板太陽會動嘛所以光電板每一個角度都不一樣所以反射反光都不一樣那這些光害動物本身就很敏感鳥類也很敏感"},{"start":252.935,"end":274.29,"text":"那這些棲息在中海 海拔的像低海拔的石斧 苗栗那邊都一直往下走整個棲息地都破壞所以日本現在有一個提出一個看法說他們低海拔 中海拔現在絕對不再做光電板屋頂的"},{"start":275.851,"end":298.642,"text":"光點板他們可以做他們還是可以允許做但是地海拔、中海拔他們都不做我們台灣不然你這裡下去研究一下沒這個好嗎現在的錢都遭遭下來這幾本都要送了現在台灣這幾年保育做得很好你到山上可以看到很多山羌我到霧台那邊去整條馬路旁邊都是猴子"},{"start":299.722,"end":318.244,"text":"我就給牠比這樣凍蒜凍蒜牠也這樣跟我一起跳我把牠撩到牆上來看一看所以這些熊或者是野生動物的棲息你要研究一下你沒有這方面的idea"},{"start":319.275,"end":334.227,"text":"因為這個是屬於農業部主管的啦我們會跟他研究不過委員那個因為我們台灣的光電板的環評的標準在山坡地是全世界最嚴格的這委員您放心這個很就是目前未來山坡地如果要光電板是很辛苦的"},{"start":336.108,"end":358.102,"text":"要管制啦不要這樣一直破壞我們的環境喔你看這些光電板的業者一個一個都出事啦燒啊燒啊這表示說有問題嘛弊端一大堆喔我們環境部的人絕對不要去隱謀到裡面不要牽扯到裡面我們是這個環評的審核單位所以我們跟那個無關的"},{"start":359.683,"end":363.749,"text":"把關把得遠一點不要受到壓力就亂核准這個是災難整個移給子孫不可取啦"},{"start":372.68,"end":391.74,"text":"你上次那些光電板33座出事了現在復原到什麼程度現在它的量現在33座我們有拿到這個23座的它的這個數據每一個鏈的數據了然後其他的都是在已經進入這個去化的過程當中所以我也很放心我們都有列管"},{"start":393.482,"end":409.85,"text":"好了 營業你不用起來了好 最後一個問題 事業廢棄物那你現在SRF啦 你的事業廢棄物啦你現在有沒有分類分得好我看你們現在是蠻嚴格的啦是 想問問你一下 醫療廢棄物現在怎麼處理"},{"start":416.521,"end":436.201,"text":"醫療廢棄物現在一年大概是12萬噸那目前來說的話現在等於是說有分幾種的量大概12家啦滅菌再利用的8家其實目前的量能剛好是平衡的不過我是覺得因為我也聽到很多醫界的朋友說很貴啦"},{"start":436.841,"end":465.12,"text":"很貴 那我也會跟我們署長再想辦法說如何循環再利用的比例拉高減少他的這個負債那現在用紅袋裝的污染性廢墟都燒掉嘛黃袋是回收嘛那這是你們在控制還是議事室在控制因為有些再利用呢是就是衛福部那邊公告的不過我們這邊還是會去輔導然後讓這個我們的滅菌再利用這邊的那個量可以增加"},{"start":466.178,"end":487.356,"text":"就是說用黃帶的盡量鼓勵這樣可以回收是不是這樣嘛所以現在以前大部分都是用紅帶就直接燒掉是很可惜啦那你現在黃帶的比例 副市長現在差不多8%跟蘇委員報告根據環境部113年的資料顯示黃帶的再利用率是23%"},{"start":490.97,"end":506.19,"text":"百分之二十三所以一些比如洗腎的TUBE 人工腎臟都可以破碎回收那你現在黃袋的價格跟紅袋的價格差很多嗎"},{"start":508.27,"end":527.974,"text":"價格應該蠻有差異的可能是他的三分之一或二分之一就是說房貸比較便宜這樣喔對進行回收再利用的滅菌再利用比較便宜就是鼓勵他們盡量回收就對了不然你這裡有什麼配套我看那個做醫療廢棄物的都做到頑固多了都做到要倒要倒還有什麼事情"},{"start":530.86,"end":545.027,"text":"不會啊 我看我訪視幾家都還因為他的收的費用還蠻高的但是量不多啦量不多啦所以有在輔導我看真的他們都艱苦經營"},{"start":549.372,"end":566.53,"text":"那我們今年就是有我們有綠色醫療方案去進行輔導所以像這個我們的全25家這個醫學中心那今年已經可以全部來推動我們這個生物醫療滅菌災難的工作那像去年是就是比去年的話就多了4家了"},{"start":568.566,"end":584.635,"text":"那這一方面回收再利用 滅菌之後回收再利用這個因為常常接到他們的懲罰所以北京府跟我們衛福部這邊都要注意 如果需要幫忙就幫忙我沒有講特定哪一家 這個是好事"},{"start":589.817,"end":611.826,"text":"跟委員報告其實那個SRF它還是一個經過好好的管理它還是可以走的路啦那我也就是透過這個機會就是說如果好的可以繼續走社會也要慢慢可以接受因為我們經過一年的整頓其實整個成效還不錯啦慢慢得到大家的信賴不過還是有一段路要走啦還是被汙名化啦所以這個要輔導啦也要跟他們幫忙好 謝謝"},{"start":619.231,"end":620.362,"text":"好 謝謝蘇青全委員發言"}]}},{"id":"166421","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166421","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da759062a3d02134bd572c53d053df696e011f8b1905849ce668176b8d54088b54cead65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:30:08 - 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部長部長我想請教一下我們現在兩位因為我們現在全國廚藝的總產量依照113年的統計是77.2萬公噸然後家戶廚藝是50.5萬公噸事業廚藝是26.7萬公噸"},{"start":38.704,"end":49.601,"text":"那我們把它飼料化處理的養豬處理的大約是48.3萬公噸那現在我們禁止之後那麼這些廚餘要跑到哪裡去"},{"start":50.851,"end":72.914,"text":"我們現在要怎麼處理來 我們部長市長跟委員報告一下目前的 還沒有禁止處理羊豬之前大概有六成的處理其實是我們的羊豬業者在餵羊這樣的一個方式在處理所以也有大概有四成的部分是走我們的在利用設施去處理的"},{"start":74.235,"end":98.292,"text":"市長現在我們就是已經要轉型到不要再用廚餘養豬我們不論是農業部現在在推的政策我們讓他能夠自行決定到底我要不要使用還是我要繼續使用我們現在讓他有一個day line自己去決定那麼勢必我們後面要面對的這些"},{"start":99.454,"end":110.411,"text":"这些量我们要怎么办跟委员报告刚刚讲的是在禁止出营之前的情况没错我说我要问现在那10月23号开始因为发生了回头之温的案件之后"},{"start":111.55,"end":131.929,"text":"已經禁止廚餘養豬 全國已經禁止廚餘養豬到目前為止所以這段時間大概會有百分之五十以上的廚餘是走進魂化或野脈用緊急應變的方式在處理但是我們希望最終還是要走在利用循環所以在未來的一年 你有沒有去看現在所有的廚餘"},{"start":135.182,"end":149.431,"text":"你用緊急的畢竟它的量還是不夠是那所以量不夠我們現在農環境部沒有錯你要求你編列預算處理費去讓地方政府去處理但是就沒地方了"},{"start":150.532,"end":179.687,"text":"你沒有地方那你怎麼去面對這個問題那今天農業部一直鼓勵大家不要使用尤其在Daylight的時間點叫你要轉型這個勢必要轉型這個不得不轉型我們現在禁用廚餘之後我覺得這就是要變成為了我們的安全問題可是好這一段時間所發生出來的量在之後所發出來的量你要怎麼辦"},{"start":180.427,"end":208.754,"text":"坤委員報告 在未來的一年之內各縣市環保局會增加600噸的再利用的量以台南市為主 它要蓋一座160噸的生殖能源設施它可以解決我們台南產生的這樣的一個好 這多久 處理的部分多久 它需要三年的時間三年啊 對 是三年啊 這段時間怎麼辦它必須要透過民間的堆毀或者是黑水門的方式來做這樣的一個處理那有部分的量還繼續要靠混化爐 市長 沒搞"},{"start":210.543,"end":231.478,"text":"沒搞你現在講的是你的目標值但是實質跟我們現在所遇到的問題是無法解決的所以我一直強調沒錯我們現在要蓋一個能夠處理未來台南的廚餘的這樣的一個量體三檔這三檔咧這三檔要怎麼辦"},{"start":235.979,"end":260.579,"text":"市長你們有沒有想過這三年怎麼辦然後我們看到一大堆的廚餘招不攏好招不攏了你們說有我們請地方政府再處理可是地方政府他要拿到哪裡去你說你們現在先用掩埋的進入焚化爐可是量還是無法去負擔啊"},{"start":262.406,"end":287.415,"text":"我們今天講的是一個實質的問題然後當我們農業部在鼓勵我們所有過去用廚餘養豬的一定都要轉型勢必一定要轉型我們也編了轉型飼料養豬那但是呢那如果我們今天進入到家戶及社區型的廚餘乾燥機的補助呢市長部長你們認為呢"},{"start":292.133,"end":316.412,"text":"如果我們進入環境部然後來督導推動地方政府去辦理家戶及社區型尤其學校的廚餘怎麼辦學校廚餘我們自己可以鼓勵他們來做廚餘乾燥機啊由政府單位來做啊我們要不要編列經費要不要是不是可以往這個方向來做由各自"},{"start":317.625,"end":340.251,"text":"各自減少減少那麼我們的量體就不會那麼大我們是不是可以把這個專案提出來跟委員報告一下如果地方有提出因地制宜源頭減量的方式其實我們都希望他們可以去推廣去推動可是推廣我們中央有預算來協助他們嗎你這樣學校我覺得從學校端你們要鼓勵教育部"},{"start":341.857,"end":359.466,"text":"然後鼓勵學校端編列相關預算去作為他們學校營養午餐廚餘的一個處置對不對這叫源頭我們從公部門先做嘛我們公部門如果減少了我們的一個量體"},{"start":360.606,"end":384.409,"text":"那是不是減少後端的一個處理那我們再從家戶家戶其實他的這個廚藥乾燥機的補助其實補助金額不高可是他必須要變成是一個運動也就是大家願意從我自己的源頭來處理好不要說家戶是不是給我社區性"},{"start":386.045,"end":414.068,"text":"家戶可能這個小規模如果我們用社區型或是餐廳餐飲我們來鼓勵他來做廚餘乾燥機的補助給他然後鼓勵他們自己來做廚餘源頭的減量這樣是不是更好我們一定要分別從我們政府去蓋大量體的然後再從小規模的"},{"start":415.134,"end":420.365,"text":"源頭解決市長你認為呢跟委員報告一下你有沒有提一個計畫從"},{"start":422.732,"end":449.057,"text":"產生廚餘端來看這個產生廚餘就好像是產生垃圾一樣是啊他必須要互惠來處理這是一個使用者互惠的概念但是現在是因為遇到非洲豬瘟這個事件所以我們不得不趕快去做這些源頭管控所以我們補貼一點用專案補貼一點讓他們加入這樣的一個源頭管控處理垃圾的部分"},{"start":450.83,"end":471.027,"text":"這個是一個很重要的點跟委員報告 我先講這樣的一個合理性補貼這件事情 容我們來研議但是我要說明的是 如果產生源自己把這樣的廚餘因為透過乾燥機 它會減量嘛 水分就會去掉了它要處理所付的費用 自然而然就省下來了這對他來講就是一個經濟誘因"},{"start":473.028,"end":495.53,"text":"這個就是相輔相成我們用這個概念去推動也就是我們政府在這個關鍵時刻因為沒有人想到會發生台中非中豬瘟這件事情所以既然發生了我們現在也正式我們禁止用廚餘來餵豬那這個部分我們就應該要配套"},{"start":496.877,"end":511.19,"text":"那這個配套如果可以相對性的補助一點他又減少了他自己事業廚餘的這個處理費那就是相輔相成這才有誘因啊好不好讓我們來研議了好不好 市長再拜託了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166420","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166420","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906fd949759f917f4d4908415f8fac51cd3b1905849ce668176218123113ebae4d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:07:55 - 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現在是不是我們請彭部長請彭部長林委員好"},{"start":14.158,"end":25.104,"text":"部長我們在一夕之間就宣布了這個廚餘不再養豬那現在每天大概有幾千噸的廚餘大概現在1700多萬1700多噸1700多噸 瞬間成為燙手山芋一半進焚化爐另外一半可能就掩埋"},{"start":42.87,"end":60.788,"text":"然後就是這樣子生殖能生殖能的量就固定了你是有設定目標但現在就是生殖能幾乎就是那麼一點點所以這個政策急轉彎的後果大多數還是要靠我們老舊翻新的焚化爐來承擔"},{"start":62.576,"end":89.909,"text":"我們走到第一線的垃圾處理現場我們看到很荒謬的景象現在含水量高達80%的生熟廚餘放到焚化爐裡面這個焚化爐就像在燒開水一樣不僅大幅降低了焚化的溫度減損了發電的效率而且大家都知道超零服役的焚化爐面臨了更嚴重的設備耗損的風險"},{"start":92.429,"end":110.705,"text":"所以你在報告裡面提到要將廚餘處理設施的量能提升到每天2119噸聽起來像是政績但事實上我就要跟你分享你卻暴露了我們對於源頭減量的無能為力"},{"start":112.554,"end":128.334,"text":"你們現在想的是說我們把處理廚餘的量能提高到生產的量能可以處理這些廚餘就好了可是你們從來都沒有想過說真正的正本清源是要源頭減量"},{"start":130.103,"end":155.672,"text":"那我們一方面喊著2050要淨零排放可是另外一方面都用這個高耗能的方式去燒掉或許裡面還有很多是可以餵飽弱勢族群的食物有一些是可以轉化為肥沃土壤的有機質聯合國的數據告訴我們食物浪費貢獻了多少%的溫室氣體排放你知道嗎"},{"start":156.654,"end":163.901,"text":"大概10%左右差不多所以這些食物浪費貢獻了10%的溫室氣體的排放"},{"start":167.054,"end":185.891,"text":"所以歐盟已經透過廢棄物框架指令要來重新分配配置食物的資源我們還在煩惱廚餘太臭沒有人要還在想要蓋幾座的生殖能廠來消化這些錯置的資源"},{"start":186.992,"end":201.768,"text":"我的意思是說你們的想像你們的政策裡面到現在為止你們的政策都沒有重新分配食物資源的這個概念完全都沒有所以我們今天就是要請你說你要跳出把廚藥當成垃圾處理的這一個舊思維"},{"start":207.995,"end":225.389,"text":"而是要跳到循環經濟裡面的架構來看那我們知道歐盟的儲餘政策開始談歐盟的儲餘政策並不是獨立存在的而是架構在歐盟運作的條約第191條的環境條款跟2015年的循環經濟的行動計畫的宏觀的架構裡面"},{"start":235.017,"end":263.253,"text":"他的核心邏輯是一定要嚴格的遵守廢棄物管理階層的優先順序你知道他們的優先順序是什麼嗎歐盟這段我沒有看到他第一個優先順序處理這個循環經濟這個食物廢棄物管理階層優先順序第一一定要預防最優先要從源頭避免浪費第二"},{"start":264.173,"end":289.104,"text":"要再利用供人類食用 就是食物捐贈這是僅次與預防的最佳方案 要做食物捐贈第三 動物飼料 第四 工業生殖能第五 堆肥 第六 最後不得已最終的不得已是焚化和掩埋 它是最後手段"},{"start":290.144,"end":297.627,"text":"對照我們的狀況我們的政策中心現在你都是選擇456就是生殖能堆肥焚化這個在歐盟的這一個廢棄物管理階層的優先順序裡面都是很低階的"},{"start":307.771,"end":310.273,"text":"價值流失較多的處理方式歐盟他們優先是要將資源的價值要保留在經濟體系當中的最高位置也就是要儘可能保留它作為食物的形態而不是廢棄物的形態所以我現在請你們"},{"start":331.793,"end":348.676,"text":"用科學的數據來治理從末端的輕運量統計要走向全生命週期的食物浪費的統計你們光是統計就沒有統計了所以你會告訴我你們一年產生多少的食物浪費部長你講得出來嗎"},{"start":350.191,"end":373.109,"text":"說真的台灣的數據我有問了基本上是沒有沒有統計那也跟委員報告其實我們行政院的報告裡面我們有特別加進去一個就是重新再推動食農洗食的教育就是委員你說的那我們現在正在整合因為我覺得我們這個過去早就有推可是都很分散沒有啦食農洗食是口號"},{"start":373.929,"end":391.85,"text":"如果你連產生多少量你都統計不出來你根本不知道你有沒有洗到這個洗到時可能不知道啊環境部的統計數字永遠是清潔隊的回收量但是這種數據你說你有多少廚餘"},{"start":393.251,"end":410.848,"text":"剩食你們就只有清潔隊的回收量是末端的處理量而不是源頭的產生量更不是食物的浪費量你都不知道食物浪費多少你怎麼奢談 洗食呢你怎麼知道有沒有洗食所以不要把它變成抽象的道德的口號"},{"start":417.654,"end":418.514,"text":"所以這個重量是什麼 沒有意義"},{"start":441.866,"end":467.045,"text":"沒有意義這個數字也沒有告訴你們這些決策者有多少的比例是因為供應鏈的管理不當而過期的麵包有多少比例是因為消費者習慣而倒掉的剩食如果我們沒有辦法區分可以避免的浪費和不可避免的廢棄物我們的減量息食就是口號而已啊保定"},{"start":468.045,"end":488.531,"text":"那你們的公告因回收或再利用廢棄物再生資源項目你們的項目上面怎麼寫你要先統計啊沒有任何統計的這個數字沒有計算就沒有所謂的減量可是你們的公告因回收再利用廢棄物再生資源項目只有一個項目叫什麼你們一個叫做除以兩個字"},{"start":494.125,"end":515.051,"text":"事業產生出來的廚餘就是廚餘兩個字你們在廚餘裡面沒有其他的概念了你覺不覺得應該要其他的概念在統計上光從正本清源的統計上沒有辦法設定減量啊你怎麼設定減量連統計都沒有連計算都沒有怎麼設定減量保定"},{"start":518.056,"end":537.608,"text":"包委員廚餘記得有分不一樣的類別我們林副署長你要不要說明一下廚餘有分類但是委員說的這個我們的例如說餐廳或是一般團散出來的那個部分的確是缺乏統計資料啦我現在要跟你講我他山之石可以公錯了我已經講很多遍一直跟你講"},{"start":539.35,"end":554.92,"text":"對比之下歐盟早在10年前就意識到這個問題了歐盟執委會為了達成聯合國SDG12.3減少糧食浪費的目標啟動了歐盟食物浪費預防還有社會創新計畫簡稱Fusion"},{"start":557.895,"end":575.806,"text":"他的futures他不是一個簡單的統計專案而是關於一場關於定義的革命定義的定義他的核心價值在於他建立了一套非常嚴謹的定義的框架他不再籠統的簡稱叫做廚餘"},{"start":579.508,"end":602.693,"text":"副署長 你們除了廚藝以外還有其他名稱嗎還有其他統計嗎是 我們的那個一般廢棄物裡面是有一個廚藝這個名稱事業廢棄物裡面有廚藝的名稱那還有一些是說剩食那剩食裡面又有分分成是來自於譬如說工廠的那一些我們有植物性殘渣 動物性殘渣還有一些下腳料等等所以這個是統稱 統稱叫廚藝事實上它在個別的代碼存在"},{"start":607.031,"end":634.199,"text":"最終還是混在一起啦跟委員報告就是說 習時的東西我對於現在的習時是不滿意的啦所以我已經請我們知道不滿意要有手段要有方法要改革而他必須從定義開始我就跟你講歐盟他首先強制跟食物廢棄物區分為他並不是你們講的下甲料什麼剩食廚餘剩食跟廚餘還不是一樣"},{"start":635.979,"end":654.132,"text":"他們是區分為可以食用的部分跟不可食用的部分那為什麼要這樣子區分呢因為這樣子要對接到不同的管理的工具政策工具會不一樣所以對於可食用的部分比如說過期的吐司外觀醜陋的蔬果"},{"start":656.253,"end":671.265,"text":"這個是資源措置啊政策的目標是要預防跟再分配例如說要捐贈給食物銀行但是對不可食用的部分像蛋殼骨頭才是真正的廢棄物他的政策目標應該是價值轉化比如說拿去驗養發酵產氣"},{"start":676.269,"end":694.593,"text":"那歐盟透過這套的方法 制定了統一的量化手冊要求成員國在食物供應鏈的六大階段從初級生產 加工製造 批發物流 零售市場到餐飲服務業 到家庭消費進行全面的盤查他要盤查六個階段 都要做"},{"start":700.434,"end":725.062,"text":"然後讓歐盟能夠精準的抓出原本在生產端有大量的農產品因為外觀不符合超市的規格而被拋棄而在消費端有大量的食物因為標示不清楚而被拋棄有了這套數據以後第一他才能夠訂出精準的廢棄物框架指令"},{"start":726.002,"end":734.349,"text":"那有這個廢棄物框架的指令才能夠強制要求大型企業揭露數據才能夠對症下藥你看我們台灣還在用多少量 總重量來自我安慰以為說出於回收率高就是做環保殊不知我們的回收一半以上可能是 有可能啊你是不應該要丟棄的食物啊"},{"start":750.541,"end":773.344,"text":"更不要講說歐盟第二個人家在進一步在2025年更修訂了再一次的修訂指令為了要達到2030年將人均食物的浪費要減半的目標人家訂出浪費減半的目標而且減少生產和供應鏈中的食物損失他們要求成員國"},{"start":774.545,"end":793.858,"text":"要在2030年前將加工製造緩解的食物浪費要減少10%此外 成員國在零售和消費的緩解比如說在餐廳 在餐飲服務機構和家庭要設定人均食物的浪費要減少30%"},{"start":796.847,"end":809.635,"text":"所以你剛剛講治理不能變成空話沒有盤查就沒有管理沒有辦法設定政策工具更談不上減量的目標"},{"start":811.007,"end":827.595,"text":"所以不會源頭減量你現在說我要增加這個去化去除這些廢棄物的處理量能這個都是末端啊生產更多生產過更多然後你再蓋更多這個不是從來都不是這樣子不應該是這樣子"},{"start":828.795,"end":841.862,"text":"保證這樣是不對的報告委員其實我的確是我們的確有在研究法國的食物浪費法避免食物浪費法那它到底怎麼做的我們也在看甚至像韓國韓國它的廚餘都要秤重的"},{"start":844.844,"end":864.715,"text":"要付費的我們也都在觀察就是怎麼樣去推動因為我們的確對於浪費食物台灣過去並沒有一個很好的政策道德性的去做處理而已所以我也贊同委員說的但是這個部分我們需要跨部會去做例如說我們現在的很多的團散製造一堆三成的變成廚餘這個其實就是有問題"},{"start":865.715,"end":884.628,"text":"這個很多問題啊那比如說你們的2050的循環經濟路徑裡面洋洋灑灑說建立食品供應鏈減損管理的策略聽起來很好啊你說這個食物浪費法聽起來好像很好啊可是你們要具體的管理的工具啊具體管理的工具和手段在哪裡所以你不是說定一個這個食品浪費法就好了你要導入你要先導入你先要統計啊"},{"start":891.733,"end":918.532,"text":"你要像Fusion一樣的盤查方法所謂的供應鏈減損如果你沒有這種盤查的話這供應鏈減損就是一句空話根據公視的報導目前列管的1490家的超市和量販業者當中你現在講說要個別家庭出入要秤重要計價你為什麼不從業者開始1490家的超市和量販業者當中他們每年申報一萬一千噸的廢棄食品"},{"start":921.107,"end":925.649,"text":"11000噸耶1490家而已請問部長這11000噸裡面有多少是還可以吃但是被丟掉的有多少是已經腐敗不能吃的你們答不出來吧因為業者申報的時候根本不需要區分啊"},{"start":939.294,"end":955.57,"text":"對然後大多數直接去焚化爐燒掉但業者只要把東西交給清潔處理機構就好了啊責任就沒了啊業者根本不需要在乎任何的執行的細端是進到豬的肚子還是跑到焚化爐去都跟他無關都是你政府的責任嘛是 是"},{"start":956.551,"end":961.897,"text":"所以你們也不在乎啊但是當不能夠養豬以後你們就必須要在乎了啊沒錯 沒錯但我講這一萬一千噸高熱脂的廢棄食品失去了養豬這個去處我們還是不知道他們的成分我們就沒有辦法精準的把他們導流"},{"start":974.651,"end":1003.851,"text":"到底我們可能會把這個高原分的剩食送進堆肥廠他也毀了農地的土壤把高水分的果皮送進了焚化爐毀了爐體的耐火磚所以在這裡面你們的很多KPI啦但是你們的KPI到目前看起來永遠在追逐末端的處理設施的擴建而陷入了垃圾產生越多預算編列越多的惡性循環"},{"start":1005.211,"end":1015.955,"text":"你們的KPI說 堆肥啦 黑水盲啦 生殖能的處理廠啊提升全國處理的設施量能你們一天 2017年 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廉政署"},{"start":19.786,"end":33.4,"text":"審計部針對國防部近五年來火藥原物料採購涉及本案還有本案啟動專案調查跟集合我想這個部分因為這是針對國防部的RDX採購5.9億的採購案結果主席有開過記者會還有剛剛我一路這樣子"},{"start":40.888,"end":67.318,"text":"看下來有多位委員提出他有提出非常多的質疑點那也引發社會的質疑我想國防部是拿了人民最多的納稅錢去發生這樣荒腔走板的採購案那這個不是冰山一角這都是人民的血汗錢這也凸顯出國防部採購制度有很大的弊病我想提出來就報紙第一個內部監督機制是完全失靈專業被長官一致凌駕那第二個"},{"start":69.359,"end":96.389,"text":"濫用刑事上面的合法剛剛主席您的質詢裡面有提到很多這個點他用濫用刑事上面的合法來掩蓋實質上面的風險他就憑一張營業登記有寫國際貿易資本額也不足的廠商也不高的廠商就可以承攬這個巨額的採購如果一個近6億的案子都能夠搞得如此漏洞百出那未來高達1.25兆的國防特別預算我們人民怎麼放心交給國防部"},{"start":97.455,"end":118.063,"text":"那所以我是希望說國防部現在已經沒有辦法自律我們應該引進外部的監督單位所以我是希望就是說委員會這邊能夠才是我們責成工程會連政署還有審計部把這近五年的火藥原物料還有本案啟動專案調查我想我調查幾個點"},{"start":120.56,"end":142.426,"text":"包括底下這幾個點但是不限於這幾個點第一個工程會的部分要針對國防部採購巨額的採購為依法規避特定資格包括財力跟實際支銷的審查反而降低門檻是否為特定廠商量身訂做這有沒有行政疏失這是請工程會要調查第二個廉政署"},{"start":143.626,"end":169.174,"text":"針對單一廠商投標資格顯不相當還有廠商變更登記還有異常等等的情節要調查押標金跟履約保證金的來源有沒有綁標圍標或是圖利特定廠商然後也要檢視國防部內部的陣風提出防弊還有制度的改善要請他們也要做到還有審計部要全面檢討國防採購效能要查明有沒有違反預算用途驗收放水"},{"start":169.694,"end":188.039,"text":"未依約追罰並且針對這一類的高危險的旅約案件提出風險控管的調查報告那我想如果可以的話是不是一個月內針對個案相關委員會還有今天來質詢的各個委員辦公室能夠提交報告"},{"start":188.539,"end":212.984,"text":"然後三個月內針對國防部近五年的軍火採購案件能夠提供調查我想我跟主席報告就我強調一個點這個不是我們委員個人跟國防部之間的攻防因為這是涉及到整個外交國防委員會代表人民在做內部的監督那不是說事情發生了就叫一堆網軍出來亂洗一通網軍現在不是在罵說什麼合成公司當年也"},{"start":215.385,"end":231.534,"text":"那個標了那個抗彈板問題是抗彈板本來它材質一部分就是陶瓷嘛它又是個上市公司怎麼可以拿來比這一次這個火藥採購的這個案子呢兩個完全差距這麼遠一個是在做他的專業而且上市公司另外一個我們不知道他在幹什麼的"},{"start":232.978,"end":237.22,"text":"好 我想我們要讓國人看到 這不是究責啦而是我們要搞清楚國防採購到底發生了什麼事情我想是不是主席可以才是做這樣子折騰這幾個單位來進行調查就吳宗憲委員所提的這個建議因為涉及本委員會還有非本委員會的部分如果說是我們本委員會的那就由我們主辦的委員會來主責"},{"start":258.271,"end":264.656,"text":"那另外如果是本委員會的因為今天臨時提案的時間已經過了那我們會找適當的時間我們來以臨時提案的這個方式我們再來提出那另外其他非對口單位比如說像工程會啊或者其他相關的可能在48委員會或者其他的委員會我們來共同來提出然後看有必要的時候"},{"start":287.211,"end":299.791,"text":"需要用怎麼樣的聯席會議或者其他的我們再來一併處理好不好好 謝謝主席我想這個國防預算的支出是國內最大項的支出我們還是要讓國人知道到底發生了什麼事情好 那我們麻煩部長好 謝謝部長請顧部長"},{"start":311.877,"end":325.489,"text":"謝謝國防部長你們的報告也有提到說其實你們是經得起公開監督的啦所以我們才會說我們用一個公開監督的方式來處理我建議委員不要查五年啦你應該是查過去二十年好了"},{"start":325.649,"end":343.852,"text":"好 沒問題 沒問題我們到時候委員會聊我們20年嘛謝謝你要查的話部長 我也相信部長跟我一樣我們對於國家有忠誠的義務所以我們一定希望把事情釐清那也不要說讓有人背負不白之冤所以把事情釐清我想是你我跟國人都希望的"},{"start":344.472,"end":359.994,"text":"請問一下你們新聞稿提到押標金3%履約保證金5% 180天內提出輸出許可驗收不合格就解約 沒收保證金這部分是你們這一次的報告還有新聞稿提到的請問是或不是"},{"start":361.358,"end":383.336,"text":"我們會在這個他如果沒有辦法提出輸出去的證明然後之後又沒有辦法提供這個產地證明原廠製造證明文件然後並且沒有辦法能夠交貨的話那我們就或者是檢驗沒辦法合格我們就辦理結案付款不合格的部分都辦理退貨由廠商回運原產地"},{"start":386.919,"end":402.858,"text":"這個內容我想大家都知道我只是說這個數據沒有錯但是部長這個採購法的核心是要求政府你用納稅人的錢去找廠商合作重點是要審查廠商的資格是要一開始就要避免有交易的危險"},{"start":404.059,"end":424.936,"text":"所以採購它有兩個很重要的關鍵點我想部長您是律師我是檢察官出身的我們對於採購法都很熟悉我們採購有兩個最重要的關鍵點第一旅約能力第二進出口經驗跟供應鏈這兩個很重要的關鍵點所以今天你們的新聞稿有提到說這個莊皇公司有營業國際貿易所以符合採購資格這個沒錯吧"},{"start":429.259,"end":456.851,"text":"你們有這樣子講嘛 對不對我們過去20年來對於外購的這些火藥原物料的採的資格都是如此也就是都具有國際貿易業的資格就都可以但是呢 依據巨額採購的標準5.9億的採購案至少要有十分之一的財力證明啊這家廠商的資本額只有1900萬不到三分之一那連你說的5%的危機金是2950萬都賠不出來那這個我就覺得就是一個很大的風險啦"},{"start":458.652,"end":480.644,"text":"我們是用押標金跟旅業保證金來督促他預約旅行我跟你講你講到這個就是我等一下要講的啦所以你們認為說廠商只要繳得出押標金旅業保證金期限內能夠提出這些原廠證明我們就認為他有代理人能力嘛對不對如果沒有你們會解約這是你從早上講到現在但是我跟跟部長報告一件事情"},{"start":481.184,"end":496.722,"text":"你這等於是放任廠商拿國防部的合約去跟銀行貸款啊所以他是在做無本生意耶部長解約跟賠償是兩回事您是律師我覺得這能不要混淆視聽啦我給一個比喻啦"},{"start":497.964,"end":513.031,"text":"第一個 他可能會發生的 他債權可能沒有辦法實現喔因為你們一直講的是說 他違約我們有什麼處罰 旅遊保證金5% 押標金3% 你一直講這個但是我今天是國防採購欸 我不是要採購一個官司案欸"},{"start":513.911,"end":534.083,"text":"所以我為什麼希望他最後會走到那一步呢我當然是希望採購能夠順利嘛所以啊所以我們採購能夠順利就是要拿到伺服器和證明啊他沒有辦法拿他就沒有辦法履約部長我們沒有問你部長我沒有問你好所以呢今天發生幾個問題我點出問題點好不好第一個你找了一家資本額只有1900萬的公司"},{"start":536.064,"end":554.29,"text":"去承包這麼大的案子那這個會發生什麼 就好像騎腳踏車不小心撞到法拉利一樣出事了 對 你可以告我我可能要賠你一千萬但不好意思 我賠不起嘛債權憑證嘛我們連法律人不是最喜歡講我沒有需要告他 我沒收履約保證金履約保證金他已經繳在那裡啦"},{"start":555.37,"end":580.211,"text":"然後第二個 我跟你講反正他今天不管發生了什麼事情我搞不定 我賠不了 那我就宣告倒閉就好我就再講一次嘛我不管他有沒有宣告倒閉我默說他履歷保證金就是我違約的時候的處罰部長 部長 麻煩你冷靜一下我再說一次 國防採購我是要保衛國家用不是為了未來找官司用的嘛"},{"start":580.771,"end":595.378,"text":"我的主軸是要保衛國家不是要找一個以後可以打官司所以我覺得就算打贏官司我們拿到一個債權憑證或是我們沒收了他的押標金意義在哪裡部長可以不要插嘴嗎部長所以我今天就覺得"},{"start":603.021,"end":620.923,"text":"第一個我們可能拿到紙紗債權憑證第二個會有戰備空窗啊對不對如果說今天你說可以解約嘛對不對好那我們買炸藥是為了備戰欸不是為了打官司欸初次解約有什麼用戰備還是發生真空啊"},{"start":621.323,"end":638.345,"text":"那我在乎的是這個點嘛錢不錢是小事但是它可能會產生一個戰備的空窗這就是為什麼我們在採購的時候尤其對於巨額的採購我們設定很多條件嘛因為國家是希望採購能夠順利成功而不是希望未來可以去打官司打贏"},{"start":639.286,"end":663.785,"text":"我想這個這點我非常贊同所以我們就是開放開放所有的廠商重點就在於他缺標後一定要拿到輸出稀可證明啊實際是零今年進口也不到1600萬根本就違反巨額採購的標準因為你至少要2.36億要有五分之二的軍火交易經驗嘛但是他是零所以"},{"start":664.565,"end":693.453,"text":"如果今天喔 他是廠商是拿了國防部的合約去跟銀行抵押借錢繳押標金 保證金 這個叫做融資這不叫做實質的財力那我們的採購法為什麼一直希望來標的公司要有實質的財力就是不希望他到時候兩手一攤 我公司倒閉就沒事了國家還是希望一個非常良好的廠商來標因為我們希望每一個標都能夠順利 軍火能夠拿到所以啊"},{"start":695.492,"end":718.558,"text":"再來我想這次的絕標公告裡面有提到原產地是中華民國啦那我以為我看到了這個字眼我覺得原產地國別是中華民國那就應該在中華民國生產但現在又爆出說是在其他地方可能印度可能美國那我就搞不清楚了這個是習產地嗎還是這個是詐欺這我就搞不懂了 地方嘛"},{"start":720.319,"end":740.341,"text":"會不會說事後解約然後這個所謂的我們嚴格審查機制其實是讓空國公司是不是全身而退這是把風險丟到第一線的過去然後再跟你說因為我自己辦公室的一個助理女生她小孩差不多當兵的年紀她最近每天都很擔心她看到的是一個"},{"start":741.755,"end":760.397,"text":"我們看到新聞說原本好像是差不多8.24億的一個一個標案後來廠商有5.93億標下來看似替國家省了錢但是我們以前看過採購案的人都會覺得這種異常的低標將本求利的時代他會不會意味著偷工減料那我沒有下定論我說我會擔心這個點"},{"start":762.179,"end":779.758,"text":"那我今天這個炸藥 要嘛會不會是不穩定所以我們的子弟兵 我們的軍人拿到會不會容易有危險這第一個 第二個他會不會有不急發的問題那他在面對敵人的時候如果無法急發 無法完成任務這也是風險嘛"},{"start":780.879,"end":808.792,"text":"所以如果今天這個東西它這麼低價搶下來會不會有偷工減料 會不會有劣質炸藥要嘛不穩定 要嘛過於穩定無法集發這都是我們擔心的 這也都會影響到國家的安全那我想 你們講到這個國內無產能但是總是跟你們公告的東西產地要中華民國不一樣嘛那我們念法律就是看資料我一資料一看我也搞不懂為什麼你們講的跟原產地國別這個差距這麼遠"},{"start":811.27,"end":817.628,"text":"這個真的很奇怪 所以我想說這個會不會是代表說這個公告只是刑事啦就國防部那一定要給誰就給誰"},{"start":819.778,"end":842.828,"text":"那個公告的欄位是因為在絕標公告的時候我們沒有先讓他們提供產地來源等到後來得標商提供產地的證明資料以後我們就會確認絕標的公告有關產地的資訊第三個公司的財力證明在哪裡我想我們必須要知道這個要跟各位報告"},{"start":844.989,"end":860.588,"text":"民進黨執政九年 國防預算翻三倍我當然是全力支持國防我一定支持我們要保衛我們的國土我們要對抗任何一個外來的政權或任何一個國家我們都要與你對抗我也絕對挺警察軍人 消防這些人我絕對挺到底"},{"start":861.289,"end":881.28,"text":"但是我們特別預算 光預算漲三倍特別預算1.5兆就讓財力不足沒有交易經驗的公司去跨進來去能夠吃到甚至有人講說15億的開口合約啦這時候我們就會想說到底這個錢是拿來強化戰力還是餵養特定的廠商這是我們一直在擔心的"},{"start":882.16,"end":906.445,"text":"那剛剛部長確實有提到本案設定有違約金啦那其實我們看到了我們跟美國買F16V幾千億捧去了沒有飛機 沒有違約金 錢在美國生利息好 那今天好不容易國內的廠商我們可以罰了卻找了一家資本額只有1900萬的公司一旦違約 以他的資本額連5%你們訂的5%他都賠不起啦他5%已經繳了嘛報告委員"},{"start":909.551,"end":938.296,"text":"很多都是貸款的啦他5%的違約金已經繳在我們手上了嘛但是呢 部長你剛講的很威啦就有違約金 有解約 有求償 每一句話都有印但是我擔心的還是那個點第一個 小事情是罰不到這個是小事喔 小到不能再小事第二個 軍火拿不到這是我擔心的我們開這個表案是為了國防 為了保家衛國而不是為了他做不到以後我們再來跟他司法訴訟"},{"start":940.218,"end":959.336,"text":"我還是一樣支持國軍支持到底但我不想讓我們國人的血汗錢送到特定空殼廠商的口袋裡面那我也呼籲說國軍的弟兄姊妹只要看到這種類似的案子有任何懷疑都一定要勇敢站出來因為這不是扯國家後腿不是扯國軍後腿這在保護自己的生命那我跟部長報告我剛剛所提到"},{"start":960.103,"end":975.989,"text":"部長 實國家奉陸因中國家之事實國家奉陸因中國家之事我做過24年的公務員 我很清楚這個道理我們對國家都有忠誠義務我也相信你也很清楚這一點所以我們 好不好 我們把這個"},{"start":977.524,"end":1001.647,"text":"我們搞清楚是怎麼回事那請國防部能夠站在一個協助大家釐清問題的那個角度而不是護航的角度我們把東西弄清楚讓國人知道國防部真的是認認真真在做採購我想大家會對於國防部將來的各項採購或特別預算會更加的信任 更加的支持好不好我們一起做到這件事情 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應該知道"},{"start":197.867,"end":211.559,"text":"因為大概在雙北這邊最大的團散的業者他其實處理的是我們國中小學的營養午餐這個會實際的衝擊到我們現在小學生他們每天營養午餐不僅僅是價格的問題"},{"start":213.277,"end":239.402,"text":"更是品質的問題那為什麼會涉及到品質的問題啊因為本來的這些廚餘都有養豬戶去收嘛那現在沒有養豬戶去收他們自己就要清運嘛那清運涉及到兩個問題第一個他如果是乙級廢棄物的話就要找乙級廢棄物合格的廠商來運嘛那突然在市場上面找不到這麼多廠商你知不知道說他們有的業者是用運營養午餐的餐車去運廚餘到焚化爐去"},{"start":242.54,"end":258.353,"text":"你知道這個現象嗎這在法規上是容許的嗎如果從非清華來看事業是可以來運送這樣的到環保局指定的地點所以直接用菜車去運沒有問題嗎因為現在業者需要一個清楚的答案"},{"start":260.683,"end":288.847,"text":"除了這個廢棄物沒有問題之外另外一個就是食安法食安法也有規定就是你不要把廢棄物跟運食物同時運送所以基本上如果是他運完了之後以這個陳明信理事長他的場來講他送完之後他六日的部分沒有去公餐他的車輛是可以做這樣的事情OK好那第二個問題齁我們去關心完了以後因為焚化爐我們所得到的呈刑啊是下午有時候請車子去"},{"start":289.642,"end":311.651,"text":"在那邊大排長龍要排兩三個小時還不一定排得到所以我們請黨團發文請教你們各個縣市目前在處理廚餘廢棄物的焚化爐各個縣市他目前的量能跟他的分布那上禮拜五請你們回文剛剛我查了到現在都還沒有回文回來還需要多久"},{"start":314.704,"end":334.71,"text":"我早就發文了上禮拜五請你們回文結果到現在都沒有回覆因為我覺得現在我們在關心反映業者的心聲那業者並不是代表他自己而已他背後還有很多小學生那我們發文給你們請你們上禮拜五下班以前把各縣市的量能讓我們知道嘛"},{"start":335.47,"end":355.441,"text":"因為我總要去評估業者他們的反應到底有道理沒有道理啊那如果量能不足的話現在接下來要他們怎麼辦你總不可能雙手一攤說量能不足這是你們家的事情那環境部可能說地方政府應該有足夠的量能地方政府有沒有足夠的量能是用嘴巴講的嗎請你們提供一些基本的資訊"},{"start":357.049,"end":376.994,"text":"現在是覺得在國會裡面對你們的監督反正行政部門不守法不執法大家也拿你們沒皮條嘛是這樣嗎是這種態度嗎上禮拜五下班以前請教你們的問題今天下班以前送來有沒有問題有沒有困難"},{"start":381.003,"end":393.132,"text":"來請市長跟委員報告一下如果是有限一個時間要我們提供資料還沒有送達我在這邊跟您致歉我回去馬上請他們瞭解一下因為我沒有掌握到這個訊息請今天下班以前送來"},{"start":394.417,"end":419.059,"text":"要不然的話我跟你沒有辦法進行有意義的討論啊現在廚餘業者到底有幾家每天處理的量能是多少我跟委員報告同仁回報是說我們還沒有收到委員要資料的不可能這是我們黨團發的是我們了解一下好不好好今天下班以前把資料送來是我們收到我們盡快處理然後我最後只講一件事麻煩環境部去真的了解第一線地方政府目前處理的量能因為我聽到如果要去排隊處理這個廚餘"},{"start":420.74,"end":446.242,"text":"都要花三四小時大排長龍的話 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很美滿再來你說生殖的功能"},{"start":226.256,"end":243.531,"text":"所以這一點不要空口說白話你一定要實際的經驗實際的把這個環境以人家怎麼做做出來很好都要去學習環境部長沒有請你起來你聽好其實這幾個方案在地方會反對很大"},{"start":244.502,"end":271.635,"text":"我們了解不希望連放個說廚藝的垃圾桶放在哪裡都增值的很厲害給你設那麼多你沒在整個照規都不知道這點我希望你準備一下今天農業部也不要因你為死你曉得苗栗縣有一個養殖場叫做全盛養殖場"},{"start":273.001,"end":301.386,"text":"它是在苗栗以北最大的養殖場它以前跟你們申請也通過了就是全省唯一共同增值中心你們也核准它了也審查通過了在審查的時候它裡面有規劃先辦事業這個劉董有問你們審查委員如果那個非洲裔"},{"start":303.181,"end":326.553,"text":"資本發生的時候 可以不可以即時使用你們說可以但是一發生的時候 你們這幾天都動了它投資了一億多現在放在那裡 每天背債 利息在那一邊我為什麼要跟你說這個事情其實它現在經營得非常好它高溫殺菌的 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你要賠償嗎我請求你們同意你們農業部也是當初鼓勵的喔"},{"start":451.826,"end":479.578,"text":"我想在整個的一個共同政治中心本身後續我們會協助他把它轉型為廚餘的飼料化的一個工廠你廚餘飼料化他說液化飼油他還特別跟我提醒你們把規範制定出來他到日本去學習也取得日本的專利的授權技術在但是我現在要做肥料化他叫做液化飼油"},{"start":480.618,"end":503.011,"text":"可以养殖的但是没有标准到时候你又不承认你这个养殖物的事情什么都动掉没什么事情你没想过平常去关心人家做这个事情到底好坏他的成果如何所以你跟我讲其他的养殖物都在观望他有五六场"},{"start":504.079,"end":512.953,"text":"它是北部最大的它用它的東西在養殖所以它的競爭力特別強長得又好啊你如果不要用這個讓我去想"},{"start":514.46,"end":538.378,"text":"所以保留都下鄉不要只往南部走有時候提供給你一些好的一個科技資訊讓你參考其實這個全順的部分我們也一直在關心就像您剛才說的我們未來輔導他轉型成為池巫瑜的一個飼料化工廠這些法令的部分我們也會完備你現在這樣說我不會相信一發生你沒有問他你這邊怎麼樣你們就擋掉"},{"start":540.419,"end":564.02,"text":"那我成立一個專案小市你親自帶隊來下鄉考察養殖物那麼多這個方式可行的話你們就要去思考了你單只聽環境部講一個文化旅那要有多貴啊你燒廚藝要有多貴啊你還要設立一個堆肥堆肥會臭餒你要在山上去堆肥啊把它封起來"},{"start":565.117,"end":590.937,"text":"沒有 你都不知道抗爭我厲害的 你知道我這樣吹公公的就贏實地了解最重要 實地體驗最重要 好不好你們要選市長人還有 時間到沒 好好那個苗栗的肉品市場 上一次你們的副部長有下去"},{"start":591.874,"end":613.848,"text":"那我覺得第一個 弱品市場的載出裡面的你們要把它強化 弄得乾淨我們已經有規劃了 也麻煩部長再幫忙會你懂我講的嗎我了解 那個我們的市長以前啦 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區備局局長還有中科院院長部長好"},{"start":14.754,"end":36.471,"text":"今天有非常多位的委員其實我們有在討論這一個高爆彈藥RDX這個採購還有包括我們的HMX所有的採購大家為什麼會質疑不是因為他跨業去做如果他有很好的能力很好的研發大家不會有意見"},{"start":37.572,"end":51.988,"text":"今天合成為什麼可以做抗彈板中科院非常清楚因為那是中科院的科研的經費跟他合作他要做的是裝甲車的抗彈板對不對今天所以他不是因為他做馬桶來做這個是類比的"},{"start":55.231,"end":60.676,"text":"今天如果台塑他本來是做塑膠可是他去開醫院重點是幫病人開刀的是醫生他不是做塑膠料他就可以來幫你開刀啊所以你必須要一步一步到位你必須要有相當的專業你必須要達到這樣的條件今天大家質疑的是這個部分"},{"start":77.19,"end":81.272,"text":"我們如果回過頭來說過去20年來大家看過相關的記錄我們把它導回正題我們把它劃對重點今天大家的重點就是這一家廠商到底具不具備因為他不是採購一般的東西他買的是高爆彈藥如果像你們講的他不用有時機他只要有履約能力你怎麼判斷他的履約能力"},{"start":103.084,"end":107.366,"text":"他的規模小他的資本額少他也沒有過去的時機然後他也不是做這個本業的他也沒有相關的軍工經驗我不知道我們為什麼可以去認為他就有這樣的時機過去國防部或者很多相關的官員也在這個台上跟我們所有委員會不管所有的委員都說海昆艦輸出許可一定可以拿到"},{"start":131.016,"end":133.679,"text":"為什麼他可以得標就是因為他可以拿到輸出許可可是我們看現在的結果在過去有很多的經驗如果國防部要得標的廠商很多有委員質疑說這樣可能會被綁住隨便寫一個時機他就可以一直做一直做"},{"start":150.579,"end":159.202,"text":"這個就是過去的弊端可是我們也不是在這裡你這個都可以隨便把它取消掉的我想請教一下軍備局長剛剛你有提到說我們現在買回來的到底是什麼東西你買回來的到底是什麼東西RDSRDS你在上面寫得清清楚楚嘛"},{"start":169.386,"end":176.153,"text":"所以你回來還要再經過強酸的強硫酸洗還要乾化不用了你剛剛提出來讓大家覺得是你還要經過這樣的程序喔我剛剛解釋的是我們205廠也有產RTS它的原料是烏洛托瓶然後經過消化然後把它炸 是我剛剛是這樣說"},{"start":191.63,"end":213.065,"text":"所以讓所有的委員很清楚的知道你買的不是原料因為RDX你在上面的採購招標上面其實寫得清清楚楚就是RDXRDX如果它為什麼會不好做不然你它只有三個主要成分你只有六亞甲基四胺還有硝酸還有胺硝酸胺就是這是三種東西"},{"start":214.906,"end":220.55,"text":"他要把它做成RDX是比較困難的在你過去你也不是沒有量能因為第一時間提供給部長的資訊是錯誤的說我們國內沒有量能 不對國內有量能只是因為國內廠商沒有量能啊"},{"start":231.826,"end":241.674,"text":"我們自己可以做就是有量能我們軍備局我們現在在外購的時候部長沒關係啦我當然不會講到我們軍備局啊所以那個委員不可以拿著我兩句話說少講個廠商兩個字說我在說謊啊這我不能接受啊部長有人說你說謊嗎你是律師我說你說謊嗎你從哪裡聽來我看到新聞報導啊跳出來"},{"start":252.643,"end":256.784,"text":"你掉出來說謊量能如果軍備局可以跟廠商一樣可以做RDX他就是一樣也是廠商啊他賣給中科院啊再賣給我們國軍啊那他也是廠商啊你今天有很多過去他們做一些服裝做抗彈板也是賣給國軍啊那他也是廠商如果你要用這樣子去抓雨病的話那我們今天就可以把它說清楚"},{"start":277.648,"end":292.478,"text":"我們要說的是他們提供給你是錯誤的資訊我們不是沒有量能而是你現在如果要增加你可能要必須要外購所以要增加這樣子的一個量能而不是我們沒有這是第一點要說的所以我們今天要要談到的不是像剛剛有很多委員提到的說大家去還要帶什麼風向這個要帶什麼風向你所有的過去的廠商有資格的"},{"start":304.747,"end":331.101,"text":"中科院我想要請教一下這一次這家廠商他在三月拿到我們HMX的標案他在增加這個營業項目的時候只有短短三個月他是先拿到輸出許可嗎不是所以他沒有輸出許可可是你們把一億多的標案給他了嘛對不對是經過三次招標"},{"start":332.449,"end":336.213,"text":"為什麼過去你們這個不是第一次啊中科院做那麼多的飛彈飛彈是我們國內的強項你也做雄二你也做雄三你也做天空你做過很多所有的飛彈砲彈你都有需要這樣子的一些原料可是過去這些廠商為什麼不來標為什麼都留標為什麼只有一家廠商其實RDS跟HMX都一樣啊"},{"start":356.212,"end":372.002,"text":"他都是在絕標的次日期他一定的日期之內他要取得外國政府或授權許可或核發輸出許可證明啊他也就是要有把握他才會來投標啊那我們並沒有在招標資格上面訂定這個資格但是他還是要提出這樣的文件他才有可能履約啊你剛剛有聽到我問我們的中科院長嗎你有聽到他回答嗎他有拿到輸出許可嗎他現在已經啊"},{"start":385.539,"end":392.346,"text":"他在飆的時候有拿到輸出許可嗎我們這個案子也在飆的時候沒有要求他拿到輸出許可啊所以為什麼你們會認定他可以嗎我們20年來都是如此啊都是在絕飆之後的一定時間內去拿到輸出許可啊你的海昆號就不是"},{"start":402.837,"end":408.385,"text":"我們一個是原物料 一個是海固件你們不能夠拿兩種完全的東西來做類比嗎這是我們的高發財尿 今天我們要做很多包括我們的特別預算裡面有2400億"},{"start":417.136,"end":419.059,"text":"除了做船以外做了很多的飛彈那時候我們都沒有缺你今天在這一家廠商在他通過去年12月剛通過的時候你可以拿到我們HMX還有這個還比RDX更危險喔"},{"start":432.739,"end":437.242,"text":"我們先來提一下這個廠商他自己說的聲明裡面有什麼樣的狀況部長請冷靜的聽因為你是法律人你應該很清楚我們今天質疑的是這個不是一般的東西你今天如果是買車輛你今天如果是買救護車你今天如果是買其他的東西大家可能可以接受今天你這個廠商他本身因為不是過去通通沒有"},{"start":460.515,"end":475.598,"text":"HMX這個過去有很多家廠商長期以來在做你都說你可以回溯過去20年的這樣的一個履約的資歷表示有很多人做因為我們的熊二熊三也不是現在才做所以這些東西早就有進口MX它是美國的其實這個更危險你們有沒有隱藏啊"},{"start":484.329,"end":489.233,"text":"RDX也沒有理由隱藏我們一直在講說我們現在採購多困難他有什麼困難這個廠商自己都說只有中國和印度他就提兩個國家我們先看他昨天的回應我們把它分成兩套邏輯因為他大概自己分成兩套邏輯然後他兩段敘事"},{"start":509.022,"end":512.084,"text":"他把他寫成讓一般人老實說不是看得太懂因為他說他拿到美國的授權讓大家覺得他很有專業性可是剛剛我們的中科院長說他在這之前他根本沒有拿到我們的輸出許可那他有拿到授權不是因為這家廠商美國這個是因為中科院所以才給我們這樣的授權這個必須要很清楚的釐清他是為了那家廠商給的嗎"},{"start":540.043,"end":563.134,"text":"美國是為了那家廠商給的在短短三個月的時間他因為他有強調這家公司他強調美國軍工大廠十年的授權問題是這一份授權在中科院的標案上面用的這個不是軍備局的RDX的採購案因為這是給中科院的他的採購不用政府採購法"},{"start":564.275,"end":572.859,"text":"中科院的採購是不需要政府採購法這個是比較容易的所以先取得中科院這樣子的一個標案其實應該是比較容易政府採購法在辦理這個採購案沒關係因為採購法這個部分我們今天要討論的重點並不是這個"},{"start":580.382,"end":582.264,"text":"因為採購法上面你們要怎麼樣去讓他可以可以勉強通過或模糊其實都沒有關係我們現在比較質疑的是你先你剛剛說他是先拿到授權嗎他有拿到授權嗎10年"},{"start":596.656,"end":603.019,"text":"幫我確定 那個 我先跟委員講我們HMX的採購過程沒有啦 沒關係 你簡單講就好時間的關係 簡單講就是說以前我們沒有 講這個案子 講這個案子以前的來源沒有來投票 他拿到授權他拿到授權 這一家公司拿到這個大廠的十年授權還是中科院 十年授權不能保障"},{"start":615.566,"end":641.816,"text":"他只有拿到授權但是他昨天講十年獨家代理這個我不敢幫他保證所以你們在他得標的內容上面只是因為沒有三家廠商只有他一家來這個是唯一的條件第一次招標沒有廠商第二次是另外一家公司投標但是超過底價所以沒有決標第三次變成只有他這一家來而且是在我們的底價範圍之內所以才決標所以你也不敢幫他保證他有沒有授權對不對"},{"start":645.437,"end":659.514,"text":"獨家代理就請他拿出輸出許可證明啊那後來他就拿到了啊那他拿到輸出許可證明就代表他的確接到授權了這個就是問題點你今天先說我們拿到授權"},{"start":660.675,"end":665.817,"text":"他因為他得標了嘛今天為什麼他可以拿到輸出許可是因為他拿到中科院的標案用我們的標案再去美國拿這個在座的各位應該都非常清楚他為什麼可以拿到因為拿到我們的標案再去取得這樣子的這樣子的一個輸出許可是比較容易的因為美國不會平白無故因為他過去20年來我們得標的廠商全部都是國際貿易業者"},{"start":687.287,"end":689.911,"text":"外面也都是在結標之後一定時間拿到這個輸出許可部長 這個您已經講過了我現在講的是我們提的意見跟看法因為他就是拿了我們的這個標案以後他才去取得這樣的輸出許可"},{"start":703.411,"end":707.415,"text":"這個也是這就是你們的程序啊這就是你們的程序因為你先讓他得標了嘛我們現在再來看看因為美國他不會平白無故授權一家去年12月才變更項目然後沒有軍工履歷沒有相關進出口紀錄這樣子的一個廠商"},{"start":722.649,"end":727.532,"text":"他相信的是我們國家還有中科院這是第一點第二個福邁的這個聲明他也把它拆成兩段我們可以看到他第一段用中科院的授權來讓他的專業性可以提升第二段他講到軍備局的RDX"},{"start":741.421,"end":748.09,"text":"他講了兩個國家他說中國跟印度所以可見你不可能跟中國買那其實他的來源就是印度嘛可是這兩件事其實是不同的標案他也是不同的系統我們要說的中科院其實他是"},{"start":757.401,"end":781.414,"text":"比較不需要政府採購法當然你要說他用最低標或什麼那都沒關係今天為什麼其他家在你中科院從過去到現在都有能力都有經驗都有軍工背景都有相關的這些資歷的他們全部都沒有來投標這也是應該要去理清楚其實很簡單就是原來要賣那個國家不賣了現在他是重新要去取得美國如果你一定要我講就這麼簡單"},{"start":787.372,"end":796.47,"text":"所以這就是我們取的來源不易啊當那個國家不賣的時候我們之後找另外一個國家所以這家廠商他自己去跟美國談"},{"start":797.571,"end":799.493,"text":"當然啦是嗎是啊好很好然後你去年12月才變更項目隔年3月拿到標案先拿到已經有授權然後就是你去換授權跟換輸出許可嘛另外RDX的部分印度出口其實是不會受中國影響的"},{"start":820.151,"end":837.718,"text":"我們剛剛講了兩個HMX我們並不確定我們並不確定在今天鬧出這麼大的事件之後我們不知道我們沒有我們不知道印度會不會受到影響有什麼樣的影響RDX印度不會賣給我們嗎印度怕中國嗎"},{"start":839.454,"end":862.764,"text":"你們的意思是這樣嗎我們不是一直說我們現在國際的關係都很好我剛剛部長有講到一個就是說後來美國不願意賣給我們這個中科院院長在這裡證實一下好不好HMX美國不賣給我們我們之前從來沒有跟美國經過這一次是第一次之前來自於歐洲的一個國家現在不肯再賣給我們"},{"start":863.844,"end":877.61,"text":"對好歐洲的國家不願意來賣給我們可是我們跟美國的關係美國也不會懼怕中共美國其實他要提供給我們的困難度也不高因為他有很多其實是我們中科院或者甚至我們軍備局做完以後其實我們還可以再協助他們"},{"start":880.811,"end":893.001,"text":"我們只是沒有直接出售 我們沒有辦法軍售可是在商用的部分 其實我們也賣過很多所以就這個部分 美國也不會因為只有一家因為大家現在比較關切的就是這個部分所以在這裡我們還是想要最後利用一點時間我想要請教一下 我們這一次的標案總共多少金額"},{"start":904.07,"end":906.232,"text":"時間有多長 預算金額是8.2億那實際5.9億決標所以他的附件上面有一個擴充條款多少錢 擴充也是812也是812 兩個時間點多長我們這一次第一次的組合約起程多長"},{"start":929.893,"end":937.342,"text":"數量多少簽約之後的第一批是300天第二批360天沒有 我就是說你的復健後面是幾天"},{"start":939.588,"end":962.999,"text":"就是你的擴充合約是幾天擴充是到117年擴充合約是幾天告訴我們幾天因為你分兩個階段嘛你一個就是我們現在的合約上面是講擴充合約是可以到117年12月31號我們這一個是第一個是300天是的第一批分兩批第一批要300天簽約後300天交然後第二批是簽約後360天交所以我們的組合約"},{"start":966.34,"end":969.321,"text":"也就是說我們的組合約是有六百多天對不對是六百多天大概兩年對不對不是不是擴充合約的部分是要看我們要不要執行我們有權利不執行下面的履約沒有辦法我們也不會執行我們的軍備局認為沒有這個擴充在外購的需要也不需要擴充請聽我講完我的問題我要的是答案"},{"start":992.19,"end":993.953,"text":"我想要請教的因為這個裡面有組合約就是現在的得標的金額5.2億5.9億所以他分兩個階段就是300天跟365天"},{"start":1007.884,"end":1034.105,"text":"360天所以他總共有660天同樣是從簽約簽約期300天和簽約期360天他只是要分兩批最晚時間是360天一年多然後後續的他的擴充條款後擴是可以在117年12月31日前來執行有數量嗎數量也是一樣一樣的數量"},{"start":1037.587,"end":1044.132,"text":"所以他的那個擴充金額為什麼你還是用原來的金額因為你得標的金額已經降下來了可是你擴充合約的金額還是一樣你甚至比第一次的組合約還要高到時候底價的訂定會參考不是部長我們過去沒有前例我們的擴充合約其實不會比我們的組約還要高預算還要高這是基本的不管你所有的發包所有的採購"},{"start":1066.829,"end":1084.402,"text":"包委員那個後擴的那個金額那是以預算預算金額來編不是我現在要講的是你為什麼要後擴這樣的金額因為你的金額已經比主約還要高了你後面是9億耶你後面是9億耶對不對"},{"start":1088.442,"end":1090.883,"text":"8.2億你的擴充的金額比那個我們現在在這裡請部長做一個決策今天因為過去沒有這樣子的一個案例你都還不知道他好不好你甚至都不知道他的履約的能力好不好這跟我們之前在談到的像我們的"},{"start":1108.905,"end":1111.388,"text":"就是我們的國軍的服裝攻受戰的概念是一樣的你一簽連擴充條約大概長達八年而且高達百億以上這是非常高的而且中間其實幾乎很難讓他有解約的可能"},{"start":1123.945,"end":1147.18,"text":"因為要罰款也罰不了我們的擴充合約就我了解我們有不執行的一個空間我們沒有一定要執行這個擴充合約我剛已經講了擴充合約還要當然還要看他前面的履約的狀況如何他如果履約沒有沒有能夠履約根本沒有後面的擴充第二個我們的捐配給要考量他自己本身的產能如果我們認為已經夠了我們不需要執行後續的擴充合約這個權在我們"},{"start":1151.843,"end":1160.993,"text":"那所以為什麼要簽擴充合約我們只是認為如果他已經有拿到輸出許可了他就有能力輸出許可隨時都可以終止那當然他後續的執行他後續的執行會決定的後面他擴充我們的擴充的這個履驗能力的一個評估"},{"start":1174.167,"end":1186.24,"text":"部長我們現在簡單再來想這個案子因為一個就是他的沒有資歷規模小或者因為你們說要讓大家都有資格嘛只要有貿易條可以有進口國際貿易的這樣的條件因為放寬許多其實就可以來投標"},{"start":1192.507,"end":1196.628,"text":"所以既然他的條件是這樣 如果他做得不夠好 照理 你說你可以要擴充條約或不要 可是通常你綁了這個以後 因為你現在很明顯的 很明顯的他的擴充條約的金額 他已經遠比我們 他現在標的金額還要高了 他現在5.9億 可是你後面的擴充金額是9億 對不對不是 8.2億 就預算金額嘛 到時候訂的底價一定不會是這個金額嘛"},{"start":1222.349,"end":1226.81,"text":"部長 你給他寫在合約上面他就會用那你可不可以在這裡那我們這一次訂的預算金額也是8.2億啊我們的底標是8.2嗎 不是啊所以我現在意思就是他明明就可以5.9億可是因為你訂了擴充的金額所以他就一個綁在一個8.2億那你可以要求他說他的擴充的金額不可以高於現在他得標的金額嗎 可以嗎合約上面可以訂嗎"},{"start":1250.957,"end":1266.307,"text":"合約上面可以訂嗎因為在招標文件當時我分AB好第一階段和後擴那第一階段後擴招標文件就已經因為依預算規劃來訂那後來絕標金額是5.9億那我們就不能再去反過來去改變當時招標文件的這個內容"},{"start":1267.108,"end":1269.969,"text":"所以特別在這裡嘛 我們現在講的就是你在每一個招標 尤其是最近喔過去還沒有這麼多 現在每一個幾乎都有擴充的這個合約 擴充條款這些擴充條款 已經把那個金額都綁在上面了你今天他可以5.9億標 可是你現在卻願意給他8.2億他就是可以有這麼高了 對不對我們沒有願意給他8.2億嘛 委員怎麼可以一直這樣子"},{"start":1294.676,"end":1303.326,"text":"部長好那沒關係我們現在要講的是你在合約上面可不可以訂定其實他就不是不可以高於現在的主約的價格可不可以這個是要等到我們執行擴約的時候我們會來參考這個委員的意見嗎"},{"start":1312.117,"end":1319.48,"text":"我們一定會會遵循這個合法的一個情況來辦理公開招這個我們的公開招標的扣約程序的內容的執行這你非常清楚合約簽訂以後就是這樣金額今天這就是大家可能比較質疑的我們現在要求一下我們希望可以提供這些相關的一些記錄就是服賣他有保險嗎"},{"start":1335.345,"end":1341.267,"text":"有危險品的乘運能力然後有IMDG申報文件然後有招標單位是不是都有看過那這有沒有防場另外危險品運輸有沒有相關的一些證明的資料這些我們希望其實在過去我們有要求的剛剛有提到我們依照美軍的紀律嘛美軍的規範所以美軍如果怎麼要求我們也這麼要求好不好"},{"start":1363.194,"end":1378.833,"text":"反正後續他會拿到數據有個證明他會跟原廠那邊會就這些相關來加以律定嗎這個部分我們要求跟美軍的相關規範是一致的而不是只有選擇性的這個部分在後續再提供給我們 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"166414","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166414","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906950a1848538dfbb53d053df696e011f8b1905849ce668176b63d252e14d10cbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:01:29 - 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謝謝召委 我先請那個沈次長我們再請沈次長"},{"start":10.308,"end":32.107,"text":"市長好我先請教一下現在整個廚餘的去化的狀況那我們每日可以增加每日產生2115噸那當然本來進入到養豬這個部分有家戶跟事業那家戶593這個已經禁止了這個禁止那事業的部分我們有一些落日的部分那731噸的一日計算1噸到"},{"start":36.069,"end":60.819,"text":"廚藝養豬但是現在也傳出了有一些不管是星運上廚藝上這個部分環境部怎麼來處理明年1月1號起有一年的時間是緩衝期這個部分的731噸的事業廚藝其實是可以繼續養豬的對但是現在有傳出了很多因為可能不管是價格的提升或者星運上面等等它變成了有面臨到的一些困難這個環境部怎麼來協助"},{"start":62.816,"end":82.138,"text":"目前的情況是因為現在是全部禁止處於養豬的所以在這兩個禮拜之內到年底之前這段時間是最辛苦的各縣市環保局都在因應這個部分那目前是因為已經有一些養豬場他接受農業部的輔導轉型他就決定明年1月1號開始他不再"},{"start":82.878,"end":93.766,"text":"吃廚餘了所以他也決定這個時候就不要再去收運了是因為這樣造成的原因那在明年1月1號開始繼續廚餘養豬的部分現在已經有270幾個廠提出申請要裝智慧監控"},{"start":98.689,"end":122.469,"text":"那我们设定他应该就是要继续养的那这个部分他会继续服务这样的一个产生源所以明年的部分可能这个压力会减轻那我们现在地方这种主要因应都是在这15天之内那这15天的问题可以做解决吗跟委员报告这15天各县市都有不同的方式在处理现在我们就请各县市环保局必须要提供辖内可以协助清运的量能"},{"start":123.129,"end":151.14,"text":"主要就是以及清除業者或者是現在有一些貨運行他的車輛也可以來市長我要問的是環境部可以協助所有各地的環保局把這件事情處理妥善處理完畢可以嗎沒有問題吧因為環境部有跟各縣市環保局每個禮拜都有兩次在協調所以這件事情在這兩禮拜內會把它圓滿處理都有在處理圓滿處理完畢嘛是希望好我不是希望是一定要啦不要讓這件事情變成另外一個風波"},{"start":152.26,"end":169.811,"text":"那當然明年1月1號之後又會有另外一個新的那我希望這件事情讓環保署要展現出你們的跟地方政府溝通協調能力把這件事情處理得完善好不好好可以了那另外其他的部分其實不管是其他的養豬除以的養豬以外的有791"},{"start":173.333,"end":192.626,"text":"791噸然後包括現在進養的這個1384甚至於有些如果他不走那一條方向的話那未來的這個從明年開始的1384噸一天1384噸甚至有可能比這個再更多啦那這樣的狀況以現在的我們的處理的量有沒有問題"},{"start":194.601,"end":216.068,"text":"目前我們盤點各縣市所報上來的不管是政府部門或者是民間大概可以再利用的量大概是一千一百一千一百噸左右了對再利用一千一百噸是那其實2115是去年一整年的統計量但是在從10月23號到目前為止這段時間的除以實際"},{"start":218.448,"end":232.717,"text":"實際產生量 這段時間因為禁止廚餘養豬嘛所以那個量其實是可以被參考的這個部分的平均量大概是1700多噸而已不到2100噸 所以是1700噸有略減 那略減我們估計他原因可能是"},{"start":233.637,"end":249.769,"text":"鹽頭就減量了 因為現在不斷在呼籲大家能夠洗食 吃多少 煮多少 鹽頭減量另外有一部分的民眾是配合政府的清運政策希望他們鹽頭就把它瀝乾所以其實水分也有減少了一些在這種情形之下 真正需要處理的大概有284噸會走"},{"start":251.87,"end":269.499,"text":"魂化或掩埋但是魂化或掩埋是一個過度的一個緊急應變的措施我們不希望它是一個永久性的所以我們還是希望能夠輔導再利用量能起來所以各地方政府目前有規劃在未來的一年緩衝期之內要做的就是增加再利用的量能大概有600多噸會上來"},{"start":271.423,"end":295.624,"text":"所以我希望接下來這一段時間一方面持續在前端的部分鼓勵大家就減少這些的優先減量這個邀請我也希望環境部跟各個環保局都能夠更具體的一些做法更具體的做法給經濟委員會這邊那另外一方面我也希望在後端這個處理上面的能夠再找到更妥善的一些處理方式好不好"},{"start":296.785,"end":321.005,"text":"這兩邊都要去同步進行台灣要成為一個更進步的國家同時間台灣也要讓我們的租資的產業能夠得到確保的時候這些都是應該要做的事情好不好我請環保署要加大力道來跟地方的環保局來合作完成這樣的一個工作好不好好 謝謝那再來我請教一下這個大概剛剛有提到的我現在是不是請教一下部長了好不好來 剩一點時間我請教部長次長先休息一下"},{"start":322.622,"end":337.913,"text":"部長我們現在在中央其實我們有轉型了包括飼料的一些補助 包括大家那我先問一下如果依照現在的不管是從現在的立即來轉成飼料跟未來一年的時間之後轉用飼料的話這個總經費大家花多少經費18億左右那這經費的來源從哪裡來"},{"start":349.522,"end":374.562,"text":"從行政院用那個災害應該是災害準備金所以這個經費目前沒有問題沒有問題災害準備金沒有問題那如果接下來的經費呢未來的經費會編列到政府的經費裡面嗎我想我們這個是屬於第三階段的我們經費已經報院然後院裡面大概初步上也同意用災害準備金或是用二倍金的方式來處理"},{"start":375.607,"end":397.781,"text":"所以這個是明年度來運作嘛對那還會有後續需要的費用嗎後續的部分就會回到我們年度的這個租產業的韌性跟相關的升級的方案裡面所以那個會編入到整個公務預算裡面如果有需要增加的話我想我兩邊應該是互相會去支援這個經費因為如果明年這個計畫實行的順利的話那應該後面剩下的應該經費是不會太多了"},{"start":403.624,"end":420.752,"text":"持續的那個租的整個續設的升級跟相關的這些設備的升級我們還是會另外有計劃去那我問一下如果現在我們的總預算此時沒有通過會不會影響到這一筆的會影響到明年度我們對租產業升級的方案的一個執行"},{"start":421.277,"end":444.872,"text":"那對於現行的這個方案會受到影響嗎現行的方案我們是用今年的經費去做處理然後專案保留好 那明年度這個也注資的也很重要啦因為明年度的很多的我們要求他們要去做政府要補助他們甚至有些退場機制甚至有些扶調機制這個如果總預算只是沒有通過的話這個是新增的預算嘛那新增預算如果立法院沒有審查通過會不會產生影響"},{"start":445.629,"end":471.937,"text":"一定會喔 包括剛才很多委員希望說我們中央加強力道給地方補助沒錢 什麼都不能做啦所以我們還是希望部長 這些總經費大概要多少錢明年度要做的這些對於豬吃豬場的這些改善我們明年度的話 我們編列了大概50點多億啦50億啦齁對 50億左右 4年的計畫那明年大概有15億 大概應該有15億左右是在豬產業那這是一個新興的計畫嘛 對不對"},{"start":474.131,"end":488.287,"text":"這是延續性的嗎還是新新的他是沒有他是一個延續性的作為啦但是他在切割的時候是從114到117那我只問的是如果現在總預算遲遲無法審查會不會影響到明年這個15億的預算"},{"start":490.208,"end":513.914,"text":"應該會啊會影響到沒有辦法來執行對有一部分的特別是在設置設備補助的部分是沒辦法執行的設置設備一定是新的嘛這一定是新的政策去補助的嘛如果沒有延續的政策我們還可以照著過去的走但是如果新的政策一定要得到立法院的同意才能夠動之嘛所以這個公務員上面不可能違法來執行嘛所以這個如果總預算沒有通過對於這個都會產生影響"},{"start":514.654,"end":538.081,"text":"總預算沒通過不只是這個啦我們所有的農業的相關的那我再問一下好了明年度有新興的預算的部分總預算如果沒通過會造成的影響有大概多少經費會造成影響這個我可能還要再去了解一下初步就部長你的專業的了解啦你不可能都完全不了解到底哪些東西是重要的預算新興的預算應該是超過20億以上超過20億哪幾項比較重大的建設"},{"start":538.541,"end":556.301,"text":"我覺得有非常多的像冷鏈冷鏈的計畫就是一個非常重要的還有一些 冷鏈對農民很重要特別是在治水的這些治水裡面的農水路的部分還有相關的這些剝地防災的部分那個是影響最大的"},{"start":557.685,"end":582.327,"text":"所以治水包括農水路包括這個冷鏈那現在還有這個株枝的這個部分我希望農業部還是要持續對外界做說明好不好預算遲遲無法審查這不僅是立法院的這個懈怠不僅是立法院的失職同時間對於整個政府的運作會產生重大影響我認為各部會都要積極的對外界做說明"},{"start":583.347,"end":610.08,"text":"會 我們會來準備一些資料好不好 你希望立法院盡速來審查讓整個很多重要對攸關人民攸關農民的一些新興的預算能夠盡速來通過這也是立法院的職責啦我希望盡速來通過好不好 部長就你們該講的要不斷讓人民知道那這樣子才能夠讓人民清楚也讓所得力我們知道不審預算這件事情對於國家的傷害跟對於政府跟對人民的傷害是很大的好不好好 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那有一天可以處理135噸嘛那另外民間有一個廠像虹橋它過去是跟市政府這邊有合約大概是有20噸左右可是它因為這段時間禁止廚餘養豬它每天已經收到100噸了這個就是我所謂的當你政策落日明確的時候業者自然而然他會提升他的廚餘量"},{"start":198.266,"end":226.101,"text":"我们这些设备第一个我们民间的设备跟我们公家部门的设备都建制完成这是我们要准备的才能够让我们厨余去去化对不对但是未来会衍生的事业厨余餐厅等等这些单位他们的成本问题这些成本的话未来就会到我们消费端这边来处理未来就物价又高涨了跟委员报告因为我们为了能够继续吃到台湾猪啊"},{"start":226.681,"end":242.53,"text":"是基於風險考量所以做了這樣的一個政策拍板也經過大家討論的結果做成這樣的一個決定之後所以環境部不要一直推責任不是推責任 自然而然處於自然而然處於就必須要採取其他的方式處理所以你們今年的補助"},{"start":243.49,"end":272.472,"text":"厨艺因为我们现在禁止收到年底对不对12月底嘛所以你们要补助各地方政府明年的话缓冲期的话还有一年可以去收厨艺他们就会再去负担去收厨艺但是2027年之后就没有了这未来我们要考虑的还有养猪产业还有我们整个生殖还有我们的整个事业餐厅整个循环链里面我们都要考虑进去才能够让我们这个部分能够大家都不要面临着未来"},{"start":272.932,"end":302.464,"text":"物价又高涨还是我们哪个缺口没有处理好的话衍生出未来很多不好的情形发生好不好那接下来我们就请问一下部长那尤其是我们特别讲到我们厨余现在的总量的话本来是有2115公吨的厨余其中我们的可以处理的厨余部分有1324剩下的部分的话791都是做我们的堆肥各方面的那未来的话你们说你们处理的"},{"start":303.524,"end":325.874,"text":"這個建置一些生殖中心也好或者民間處理的一些最終處理廠也好這些未來我們可以處理到2529噸29噸那就是看到我們前面的數字的話等於增加一倍那跟我們現有的生殖中心或者堆肥中心這個我們有沒有具體的我們要如何增加"},{"start":328.485,"end":355.155,"text":"有環境部來說明那這個量能的增加是我們現在選項剛有講的民間會有所謂的堆灰廠或者是這一個黑水門會繼續投入這個產業那政府這邊會規劃大型的生殖能的設施目前已經有南投台南跟高雄現在我說會增加一倍的量我們要處理增加一倍的量是預估的嘛那我們要增加的這些設施具體的設施呢"},{"start":356.192,"end":366.772,"text":"這些設施都是由地方政府他們評估他們的期程環境部還是講說是地方政府提出來的設施謝謝那我就是希望地方政府要做的事情"},{"start":368.171,"end":390.618,"text":"我們環境部也應該給予補助讓他們來做你不要只有督促你只做督促沒有去輔導他們去執行去建置這些場所才來徹底的解決我們最終處理廚藝的問題好不好那接下來請我們部長那我講到這邊的話我們最大宗的廚藝都是供應給我們的黑豬的養豬戶來使用"},{"start":392.939,"end":407.056,"text":"那現在的話未來的話除以如果在2027年全面禁用的話黑豬的養豬戶負擔最沉重的衝擊最大的就是我們的黑豬的養豬戶因為黑豬的話他比白豬的話"},{"start":407.777,"end":420.487,"text":"的週期是12個月到15個月白豬只要6個月那現在的話如果沒有廚藥的話未來口感是不是會比較差或者是說成本提高這問題這個還有他們的週期養豬的週期問題我們部長這邊有沒有進一步的給我們黑豬養豬戶的一個信心喊話"},{"start":427.63,"end":447.31,"text":"謝謝委員事實上我們以農業部的立場我們一定會讓我們的黑豬產業永續的在台灣這邊土地持續的這樣進行下去但是一個蠻重要的就是過去用廚餘的養豬的方式農民比較沒有習慣用飼料的部分所以我們會成立一個輔導團隊然後我們已經有開發了一些"},{"start":449.893,"end":470.069,"text":"就是黑豬專用的這些飼料這些飼料成本比一般的飼料還便宜那我們希望說這個階段先讓他們用這樣的一個飼料的配方第二個部分我們會再去加速這些飼料配方的一個改善那第三個部分比較中長期的部分就是說我們的黑豬品種不一定一定要養到15個月啦"},{"start":470.909,"end":491.171,"text":"然后我们是不是可以有机会一个是土黑猪一个是大黑猪大黑猪大概一年土黑猪大概13到15个月我们希望说能够比较缩短因为用饲料化的一个处理他的生育周期应该是可以缩短的所以这个部分我们尽量的让他的利润能够确保"},{"start":491.811,"end":515.424,"text":"對 利潤確保是成本反應的問題尤其是部長我們的續產試驗所有研發出來專門給黑豬吃的飼料這個飼料的話可是很昂貴啊你要他轉型你就要輔導他不要讓他無法生存影響他的生計未來看不到黑豬這是不好的啦所以他們飼料這麼昂貴他們的飼料大概每頭豬要3000元左右對不對"},{"start":517.224,"end":526.584,"text":"我們的那個敘事所的這些飼料的部分大概比外面的飼料應該是便宜將近差不多一半吧你是說一千五而已嗎對"},{"start":528.035,"end":557.455,"text":"不是三千是一千五一頭飼料跟一般的飼料比我請我們續展這對黑豬的黑豬的因為你們是研發出來這個飼料很關鍵你說如果是你們這個專門黑豬吃的飼料的話然後一般的大黑豬的話可以縮短為九個月而已那土黑豬的話可以縮短到13.5個月這對我們黑豬產業的話是有幫忙的但是飼料時很昂貴那部長說可以減少一半不是三千元一頭不是三千是一千五嗎"},{"start":559.116,"end":583.649,"text":"大概減少每公斤大概減少一到兩元左右一到什麼飼料的成本跟一般的飼料一到兩元飼料成本一頭豬可以省多少錢我們一公斤的飼料大概是11塊到12塊左右一頭豬的計算方式一頭豬的生產成本大概是4000多塊左右"},{"start":584.588,"end":600.812,"text":"是啊所以還是很昂貴啦所以我希望說在這部分我們除以去化之後全面禁止之後可不可以針對黑豬這個部分我們的飼料給補助讓他們用常態性的補助給他們不要說有限定一年而已好不好"},{"start":602.223,"end":620.738,"text":"我想以農業部立場我們希望他用飼料然後飼料的部分我們去確保他的利潤就是可以減少他的成本沒有 我想我們沒有辦法在這邊承諾說一直持續補下去我覺得產業要進步我們會想辦法跟黑豬產業一起努力讓他的利潤能夠做確保"},{"start":621.178,"end":648.297,"text":"讓他的成本降低我們剛剛已經前面講了很多飼養期他比白豬多了一倍的時間養一頭黑豬可以養兩頭白豬他成本就已經很高了何況他現在如果用你專門為黑豬準備的飼料又比白豬的飼料貴了一倍以上所以這個我們可以對飼料的補助我們可以給他們常態性的話降低他們的成本降低他們的整個產業才能永續生存發展好不好"},{"start":649.316,"end":670.063,"text":"我想我們會努力的跟產業去做這樣的一個動作保障他們永續的發展我們一定讓這個產業一定永續發展還有另外一個問題部長就是我們廚藝在分類上面有分動物型的肺渣跟我們植物型的肺渣那部長有說過因為這個植物型的肺渣"},{"start":670.663,"end":690.195,"text":"不會影響非洲豬瘟 所以可以繼續用但是你們發給我們所有養豬戶的公文裡面在第5點第5條裡面就有提到說除於養豬場的經過補助型經補助轉型飼料後不得再以動物性跟植物性的廢棄物來餵養"},{"start":692.566,"end":720.846,"text":"是不是你們的發給人家的公文是這樣寫的但是你剛剛有說過植物型的廢紮廢棄物是可以繼續用的那你發給他們的公文為什麼這樣寫沒有 我要跟委員報告一個部分是在轉型期間一個部分是在轉型以後2027年以後呢那2027年以後因為不能在自己的場域裡面去做徵組不管是植物性的或動物性的因為你一旦讓他同意在"},{"start":721.707,"end":747.219,"text":"他自己場域蒸煮的時候 你們補助之後的話他場域裡面所有的蒸煮設備都一定要拆除嗎那拆除之後他還不能用這個植物性的廢料嗎他不能自己蒸煮 他如果說用其他的蒸煮去做蒸煮以後是OK的所以你是考慮說因為植物性的廢料還是需要蒸煮還是需要蒸煮嗎 如果他不用蒸煮呢他自己攪拌就可以餵食呢"},{"start":748.489,"end":766.467,"text":"沒有他如果不徵阻他可以自己去養沒問題啊但是那就可以用植物性的廢料是不是植物性廢料是可以一時是可以的啊一時是可以可是你公文發下去是不可以沒有那個是在後面在既有的徵阻設備裡面都不能用拆除後可以用"},{"start":767.321,"end":796.118,"text":"拆除以後你要用植物性料源因為是業者特別拿這公文來問我所以我盡量請部長你要釐清這個問題我想我們會再跟業者說明清楚我們發這個公文是說在自己的蒸煮廠不管是動物的植物的不能在自己的蒸煮廠蒸煮這是一件事情但是你的蒸煮廠拆除以後植物性的料源你可以從外面外面直接進去裡面不做蒸煮那是OK的"},{"start":796.918,"end":812.552,"text":"所以植物性的廢料豆渣都可以繼續使用對這個公文可不可以請你們再發給業者我覺得這沒問題這可以吧澄清一下好不好我們把它弄把它釐清啦好好謝謝好謝謝非常感謝"}]}},{"id":"166412","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166412","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906f00b43d2efcfcef0908415f8fac51cd3e8e52b0719441b97aa5b8daa13db02115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"10:42:01 - 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彭部長剛剛我聽到很多人質詢垃圾山也有提到空污那我跟您報告我今天比較晚到衛黃委員會也是因為剛剛跟四位民進黨委員在開一個記者會講到COPD就是一個慢性肺阻塞的疾病希望大家可以"},{"start":30.265,"end":51.356,"text":"除了篩檢肺癌之外也要篩檢自己是不是有慢性的肺阻塞疾病因為他是第八大死因那這些都跟空汙襲襲相關但是我今天想要先播一段影片我們立法院有一位省委員他在對東吳大學的學生做發言的時候曾經這樣子講述那我想請環境部長的意見那我們來播放這段影片"},{"start":57.045,"end":84.365,"text":"最近環保整個氣勢都醒來他說他們分享空氣汙染的文章哇 現在都超多讚超多分享我一定都知道不妙台灣人突然關心空氣汙染除非是有廠商要賣空氣清洗不然他怎麼可能到突然關心空氣汙染所以當時呢我跟一個UC DavisUC Davis的教授我們就去這些本專看就是到底是誰在分享這些空氣汙染的數據就一查那一次抓了五千個帳號然後再追到一個社團裡面有兩萬個帳號裡面是兩萬個中國帳號在一個社團裡面他們每天做的事情只有一件就是出去分享台灣任何跟空氣汙染有關的資訊還有在留言裡面討論空氣汙染就這樣沒了 每天都在做這樣的事情"},{"start":86.92,"end":115.388,"text":"我想請問環境部長的看法您會覺得說每天對空氣污染做發言或是去評論算是一個資訊戰嗎也報告委員我針對他的這個看法因為我知道他有一些問我沒有看過他的論文我不清楚他在描述什麼啦但是以我的經驗環境部其實在過去一年多包含的這個各種的光電板或是各種的其實我也遭遇到有一些不知道來源的一個對岸的這個攻擊我們是有的"},{"start":115.908,"end":126.837,"text":"所以我部分我是贊成他的網路資訊站的一個看法因為我們的確有一些假消息來源我們追查到我今天是跟你討論空污所以我們可不可以就空污來做討論您會覺得針對空污的討論還有評論是一個網路的資訊站嗎"},{"start":133.473,"end":162.373,"text":"因為他指的事情我不知道是哪一段時期但是的確我們在台灣這個是最近我跟你說這個是他12月9號到東吳的演講他講的是12月這個時期有一個關心環境的人告訴他說因為他認識很多NGO的人有一個關心環境的人告訴他說最近只要在網路上發表跟空污環境相關的文章就會受到大量的轉發分享或是留言等等的這一類的"},{"start":163.514,"end":179.831,"text":"保安委員這個是政治議題喔我是專業的人士但是我關心空污我的演出也常常有人在留言或是批評的也都有所以我都尊重但是其實台灣無時無刻受到各種的網軍這種所謂的境外或境內的攻擊的確是有的"},{"start":181.736,"end":195.194,"text":"主席剛剛也說他受到網軍的攻擊可能是您的數百數千倍 彭部長你先不用覺得說這一切都是來自於哪邊的政治攻擊我現在只是想跟你討論"},{"start":196.616,"end":213.947,"text":"其實我們從很久以前開始關心空污的議題那這個就是台灣從十幾二十年前我包括關心中國都是不分黨派的人去的以及最關心的一百件事情一直都是空污誠如我剛剛跟您講的"},{"start":214.807,"end":229.775,"text":"因為肺癌一直纏連在癌症癌症是前大死因嘛他是纏連癌症的第一第二名嘛剛又講到一個COPD慢性阻塞性肺病也就是死因的第八名所以台灣人關心公屋這件事情其實並不罕見"},{"start":230.575,"end":247.771,"text":"那另外呢 你們自己在今年的五月都有推出一個空氣品質政策白皮書裡面講到永續健康 精進汙染 淨零還有科技公民參與 而且我是要稱讚您的是在健康的章節 你有聚焦在兒少還有脆弱族群的空氣權"},{"start":249.012,"end":265.715,"text":"甚至您分享自己氣喘的經驗喔比如說你說瓦斯爐的開啟居家的黴菌街道臭氧等等引發過敏所以從過去20年我看到台灣民眾最關心的議題都是空污喔這裡面一定是前十打"},{"start":266.195,"end":279.032,"text":"那我是希望藉由環境部長的口中可以講其實台灣人很關心自己的環境跟健康我不想要被部分的人士解讀是統戰不要連關心空污都可以被抹紅你認同嗎"},{"start":282.598,"end":304.374,"text":"我基本上是關心空污而且這個訊息這個是我們也主動來做的我不知道這個委員他說的是什麼樣的事情但是也跟委員報告我們因為空污的事情我也遭遇到很多很多的境外的一個攻擊的確是有的但是我們不會管這些事情我也希望說國內對於資訊的傳遞上面有一個更好的管理的方式"},{"start":304.534,"end":322.606,"text":"是的我認為針對對的事情我們就持續去關注我們並不要去在意那些雜音好嗎我也不認為台灣人民就算有就算有這些資訊戰的影響大家會因為空污影響他們的認知或是什麼的這個就是普世價值而已是嗎"},{"start":323.326,"end":350.062,"text":"是再來我們要討論的是您在今年我看你也辦了一個蠻盛大的研討會因為極端氣候所以我們現在對高溫的時間越來越長溫度也越來越高光是今年台北跟新北就啟動了11次的高溫警戒所以您在今年7月31號大概預算快要100萬台幣推出了一個抗高溫糧食地圖來提升全民對高溫風險的應對能力"},{"start":352.283,"end":377.137,"text":"7月的時候你的新聞稿講到說已經彙整了2400個糧食點裡面就包括便利商店、銀行、公家機關等等如今超過了5000個提供1.5萬次的以上使用但是其中主要地點大部分還是在六都啦你其中的其他縣市還在積極的拓展中不過我先示範給你看因為我就自己試用了一下比如說我找立院附近"},{"start":378.137,"end":395.829,"text":"從你的抗高溫地圖可以找到5處的糧食點可是其實如果我是用google map的話便利商店的數量就高達22間更不用說這麼多的政府公務部門就在這附近再來呢我再來搜尋環境部的附近環境部"},{"start":396.61,"end":410.163,"text":"糧食點你的地圖上是有8處戶外降溫設施是1處可是其實環境部附近的便利商店大概就有16處還有你們對面有個景點叫做西本苑寺廣場這個都在你的圈圈裡面看不到的"},{"start":411.204,"end":428.811,"text":"所以我想知道說你目前糧食點大概有5000處便利商店就佔了一半以上可是其實全台灣的便利商店已經14000多家了可以配合您配合環境部的店家只有2000多家您覺得有什麼方式可以改善這樣子地點"},{"start":429.671,"end":455.835,"text":"第一個像這個店家他就說因為進去沒有買東西說真的我也不好意思所以他主動說你如果身體不適可以進去不要覺得不好意思所以他光是這個便利商店做這個我就很感興因為我們一個政策讓他們願意響應那也跟委員報告因為現在只有六都啦我希望可以更多那因為我們也沒什麼錢做這個事我未來這個就希望變成一個開放資料不是只有我們的網頁就是讓大家可以各個平台如果他要加"},{"start":456.255,"end":465.316,"text":"那未來環境部的APP也會加進去我希望讓這個可以擴展多一點讓大家隨手可得知道我哪裡熱了可以到那個地方降溫"},{"start":466.686,"end":494.265,"text":"那第二個我想問一下您有沒有實際跟您比較認識的長輩或是家中的長輩來實際操作因為我們有遇到跟長輩來操作他是覺得根據這些統計的確是真的其實長輩在使用3C產品的時候第一個他們是用來做通訊然後第二個他們是用來看新聞第三呢他們是用來查一些資訊不是查資訊就是看一些影音"},{"start":494.785,"end":518.388,"text":"比如說YouTube啊或者是抖音什麼等等的這三個才是最常見的那55歲60歲以上他們會用搜尋這個功能的大概只有70%可是針對70歲以上的人大概只有一半的人有這樣子的能力所以我實際上去找了一些比較高齡的長者因為其實您在研討會啊就有提到說你們是希望透過科技跟關懷"},{"start":519.489,"end":528.052,"text":"去守護尤其是獨居的長者或是高齡的長者不能遺漏任何一個人政策要有溫度所以當然就要針對你這群TA啊我想問你在實際操作的時候有沒有遇到這樣子的狀況因為我有他們是不習慣去找這些搜尋軟體的"},{"start":535.514,"end":562.767,"text":"對 好 謝謝委員的意見因為我知道因為年長者其實3C也不會太差不過他們喜歡用LINE要搜尋很困難所以基本上對 你也發現了我有叫我同仁說我們以後LINE app要多做一點讓老年他們加入我們LINE然後直接發一個訊息就可以回答等於是直接互動式的來做處理我有叫我同仁趕快來研究做這個事情就LINE app比較多一點點對 所以我在這邊幫我播下兩頁"},{"start":565.067,"end":588.398,"text":"這邊我要具體給你一點建議因為衛福部他明年1月1號開始他要去訪查我們全台灣的獨居老人方式我是認為環境部如果對於一些高齡長者的關懷其實你可以跟衛福部一起去你可以知道說這些他們對於3C的觸及率是多少還有他們使用你提供這些利益良善的資訊有沒有遇到什麼障礙"},{"start":589.338,"end":605.397,"text":"那你就可以跟衛福部或者抒發部去做整合比如他們假使有要提供一些課程是不是把你們這個東西納入或者是長輩喜歡用的軟體你剛剛講得很好就是做一些結合那另外你剛剛講到的其實他們會不好意思走進去"},{"start":606.118,"end":621.825,"text":"但是現在其實全國的超商都有跟地方政府有一些配合不管是發牛奶對 或者是比較這個中低收入的家庭他們的小朋友可以在特定的時間到超商去拿一些物資來使用什麼的 這些都很好"},{"start":622.225,"end":641.2,"text":"所以未來看你有沒有想要做這些在高溫或者是極高溫的狀況下長輩可以在便利商店約換一些尤其有電解質的飲料這樣就可以打破他不好意思走進去這樣子的概念但這個需要很多整合啦可能中央跟地方政府可是提供您一個想法而已"},{"start":641.84,"end":669.398,"text":"委員你的意見非常好我會請我團隊針對委員的意見納入我們明年要推動的項目來做看看因為我們今年其實有一個團我們有一個團隊跟台南就是成大了幾個老師結合針對年長者因為我們現在年長者有時候他家連裝冷氣的機會都沒有我們要針對弱勢的最弱勢的找出來但是他沒有得獎但是我禮拜四的時候會特別表揚他們因為他們整合在一起有在做類似的事情這就是我現在想"},{"start":669.958,"end":689.027,"text":"告訴您的在六都你有這些地圖有這些地方其實不錯可是這邊的人並不是最需要幫忙的反而是衛福部接下來要去訪查那些獨居長者尤其在偏鄉的地方這才是你真的需要趕快立即幫助他們的因為他們可能家裡並沒有這些空調最後一個問題我想花兩分鐘的時間跟您討論下一張"},{"start":693.009,"end":698.013,"text":"這個是之前曾經我們有質疑過那您在9月27面對新聞的時候部長你馬上說要進行政風的調查可是我們大概過了75天完全看不到您的政風報告可是黃國昌委員又再度質詢為什麼會跟特定的廠商一起出國並且特定的廠商獲得了許多限制型的標案"},{"start":716.548,"end":738.155,"text":"但是在黃國昌委員質詢之後呢您12月10號才說查無不法前前後後經歷了75天你從講政風調查到你公布報告也沒有到你中間對外有個說法也沒有所以我今天其實是想要請教您不知道這個您的調查報告到底有出來嗎可以提供給我們嗎"},{"start":739.863,"end":761.943,"text":"內部調查報告已經完成 那我們署長在這邊他其實覺得這次 雖然他沒有任何問題然後我們 但是他自己也跟我 要自己自請處分那這個程序呢 我們會在內 已經在進行內部的考試委員會裡面去做出沒關係 部長我問你一個很簡單的問題因為這個公文上面有壓您的名字嘛 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再討議員 先進 夜協 政府局長 首長 官員 會長 公眾夥伴 媒體記者 女士 先生有請陳部長跟沈次長部長 次長好 來 保定委員好我們說 台語說 處於這個東西處於 台語怎麼說"},{"start":27.301,"end":37.147,"text":"毒魚啊沒有啦 人家說噴啦噴啦沒有啦噴好 噴好就知道了噴是怎麼來的噴要經過毒磅嘛對不對經過毒磅烹出去人家吃出來的燒回來叫做噴但是我們現在說的這叫做熟食 熟廚魚啦但是毒磅沒有烹出去的也有一些切下來的那不可以吃的那叫做生廚魚 對不對所以我們說禁止廚魚是指廚房的"},{"start":54.847,"end":81.999,"text":"出去回收的那些噴以及不能夠供人使用的這些料是不是這樣子基本上我們說家戶廚餘就包括這些嗎家戶廚餘都保理的都是保理的生的熟的廚的廚的廚的清潔隊拉的大概都是這種生的熟的如果他沒有分的話湯湯水水的都有但是我看到你們這個目前禁止廚餘養豬你們現在有分喔家戶的那種來源複雜的"},{"start":84.344,"end":105.723,"text":"慶堆堆收走了 不可以 或者已清業者收走 不可以這些環境部會來做堆肥 黑水盲 生殖能 焚化 掩埋目前這一年 未來一年還可以養的 養豬的就是有餐廳的 這個比較單純團散的 好像還可以那請問過期食品跟加工廠的下繳料 那叫做廚餘嗎"},{"start":108.22,"end":123.489,"text":"跟委員報告這個也都是可以列為繼續廚餘養豬的不是他不叫做廚餘他叫做料園對不對所以我們說我們禁廚餘但是在未來一年當中有些廚餘特定的廚餘跟料園可以用來餵豬"},{"start":124.75,"end":140.175,"text":"部長是不是這樣子我看你們都在寫嘛允許使用慧珠的廚餘和料源是不是這樣是這樣子那請問像這些料源當中請問省次長有沒有廢棄物的再利用的一個可能性"},{"start":141.075,"end":169.22,"text":"跟委員報告這個基本上是參考日本EcoFit的來源也是這樣分類的好那他有分類有編號那我們目前只要有編號的這些屬於廢棄物的範疇的就可以申請再利用但是前提要可以編號可以認可好我們往下看所以現在我先問沈次長這個黑水盲跟你們溝通過很多次了那目前黑水盲短暫時間很多企業想要投資請問目前到目前統計的有在投入這28場都是大型的處理廠嗎"},{"start":170.885,"end":190.902,"text":"我所謂大型的是我也不曉得你們的規模是怎麼算包括有像民間的公司像雨田之類的也有像清潔隊自己在飼養的黑水門你看現在28場他可以處理237噸一天所以一天處理平均不到10噸那這個算是大規模還是小規模的"},{"start":193.97,"end":209.188,"text":"跟委員報告規模不重要能處理最重要目前的量能大概是只有五六十噸到目前為止對就是未來規劃可能會增加這麼多未來規劃我們要看一下其實我是認為給您一個建議其實剛剛我聽到我們部長有問到我們的謝昭偉"},{"start":212.591,"end":239.919,"text":"我也去摸過那個黑水盲的幼蟲他其實他不臭啦應該是問過次長其實在社區裡面是還OK的但是如果說你運送我先請教次長黑水盲的蟲體比較好運送還是為黑水盲的廚餘比較好運送蟲體所以廚餘要救援救地把它處理掉變成蟲體之後他要再利用是不是就比較方便"},{"start":241.403,"end":268.933,"text":"是 好 謝謝那我們就往下看來 接下來我來請一下部長陳部長我們在非洲尊爆發之前黑豬有大概62萬5千頭結果經過了108年那一次107年之後就掉了15萬頭現在是47萬頭那你覺得在經過這一次的事件後會剩下多少萬頭有沒有抓一個數量不用存25萬頭大概有沒有一個規模因為黑豬你們現在也在輔導他轉型"},{"start":270.835,"end":277.431,"text":"还是讲黑猪嘛如果到明年的年底的话应该一场都没有不是啦 我是说黑猪的产量啦"},{"start":278.474,"end":301.029,"text":"黑豬的部分我們盡量的維持這個黑豬的一個產業以前的規模62萬嘛現在掉到47萬嘛未來你估計我們福島轉型可以轉型轉型的部分我們估計可能有一部分的黑豬他會轉成用白豬我是問數量你們估計的目標值大概一半啦至少大概維持到一半可能47萬剩下23萬26 24萬好那請問這些要退場的怎麼退"},{"start":307.486,"end":329.676,"text":"他第一個就是轉成白豬飼養我說退場黑豬要怎麼退場黑豬本來47萬頭這個產業鏈有母豬有小豬有肥成有育成然後有肥大豬然後在市場那這個產業鏈我所知道分布是這樣屏東是母豬母豬生小豬而且母豬跟小豬都是吃飼料還不是吃豬油"},{"start":330.885,"end":354.479,"text":"然後呢培亞頂尿在跟育成的培亞頂尿送到那個而且中北部有大量廚餘中北部養肥了才送市場對不對所以未來的黑豬的這樣的轉型後的產業就不是這樣了嘛因為已經沒有廚餘這個問題了所以屏東也可以成為一個從頭到尾的一個黑豬的產業鏈好那你估計"},{"start":355.626,"end":376.068,"text":"你估計這樣子目前因為母豬大部分都在屏東47萬頭的整年的規模屏東要多少萬頭的母豬未來要撿到多少目前你們的轉型計畫退場有沒有包括母豬我們現在目前的轉型的退場是針對後端的這些豬場"},{"start":377.579,"end":401.507,"text":"對 但是你要想 你要從產業鏈整個生命中心來看你要讓黑豬因為沒有料園了 或沒有廚餘了 要縮減所以他要整個往下減 像剛才你講對 第一步開始減嘛第一步一年生育過期 你從頭前開始減 後面就減嘛而且現在最麻煩的是什麼是母豬的養殖場 小豬的養繁育場 為什麼大概十分之一場"},{"start":403.28,"end":429.101,"text":"十分之一的量 退場十分之一 請問母豬的退場你們有沒有補助份目前的母豬的場是全部大概十分之一的量就是母豬要十場退到只剩一場就夠了是不是這樣子意思 十分之一沒有現在的這個黑豬的養豬場十分之一部長我還是跟你講一下我們要讓黑豬規模要轉型轉型包括規模會縮減規模縮減一定是從前端嘛 從圓頭嘛圓頭減了後面的量就減嘛那因為現在"},{"start":433.93,"end":444.884,"text":"養母豬的他預期後面的量會縮他擔心未來這個生下去之後沒有人要嘛所以他要退場嘛請問目前有沒有對於黑豬場的母豬退場有做輔導輔助"},{"start":447.103,"end":474.04,"text":"我們現在是沒有 我們現在是正在後端的那因為你前端的我知道你後端的都是補貼飼料的成本差價啦黑豬的改吃飼料的成本差問你那前面的母豬的有沒有退場機制因為牠這樣可以領 因為牠沒有吃飼料 你要捏三下嘛牠現在就沒有吃飼料嘛 你們補的是改吃飼料的成本差嘛只要你是有豬的話 一頭就3600嘛只要是黑豬不管有沒有吃飼料 牠本來就吃飼料啊"},{"start":475.578,"end":496.771,"text":"我們這個我們現在沒有在處理我們現在只要你是黑豬所以我說你要一個月內我要你承諾一個月內針對整個黑豬產業鏈整個規模縮減後母豬的源頭要怎麼樣在一個月內很快的生因為母豬他現在要是懷孕了他就是等著明年明年的需求嘛明年一年後就沒有了嘛"},{"start":498.004,"end":507.695,"text":"所以你們要不要先從母豬開始做這應該要做的啊好 那就承諾一個月內將母豬的退場機制 數量跟方法提報好不好可以好 謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}