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我們不僅成功走過低行易谷"},{"start":834.185,"end":861.975,"text":"預估14年旅客人次將突破114萬超越疫情前108年的歷史新高在遊艇的推廣方面透過博區的建設跟遊艇活動的推廣遊艇的駕照數跟登記數均有顯著的成長以讓遊艇休閒活動逐漸走入民眾的生活在扮演離島往來本島交通重要的藍色公路方面目前每年服務人次超過500萬人次"},{"start":863.854,"end":888.091,"text":"除了可以提供基本民行跟滿足觀光旅遊的交通需求之外在海洋觀光上也頗有發展潛力本部以著手規劃推動相關的工作讓藍色公路成為促進國旅升級發展的新選擇未來本部將持續統合航港觀光資源優化港口旅運設施提升服務品質並加強郵輪、郵艇及藍色公路等行銷推廣"},{"start":894.259,"end":921.357,"text":"來促進產業的合作創新豐富的遊程跟打造海洋旅遊的新模式另就貴會委員所抵據的香港法民用航空法及大眾運輸工具波音語言平等保障法等六項修正草案呢也提出本部的建議處理意見那首先在香港法修正提案部分包括第二條第三十五條第五十三條第六十五條及第七十一條等系就主管機關名稱調整"},{"start":923.9,"end":945.782,"text":"強化海難應變責任跟港區活動的規範等三大面向進行修正針對本次的修正條文本部對於完備機關名稱及強化海難應變的機制競表支持為港區活動範圍內涉及民眾權益跟大幅加重罰則的部分建議採比較審慎的態度來凝聚共識後再行推動"},{"start":947.386,"end":973.513,"text":"另外有關民用航空法第119條之一修正提案委員建議增加命期限期改善以及藉其未改正者按次處罰等規定考量違規之超輕型載具飛行活動恐對民眾及其財產造成危害與威脅的風險如果需要累積三次以上才來停飛停泉將增加發生復顧的風險因此我們建議維持現行條文"},{"start":975.854,"end":994.465,"text":"最後大眾運輸工具播音語言平等保障法修正提案包括第四條跟第六條修正條文跟內容跟行政院函式優先使用語言名稱的方向一致因此本部尊重委員會審查的結果以下呢就請本部航港局業局長就郵輪觀光遊艇跟"},{"start":996.901,"end":1021.611,"text":"藍色公路辦理情形跟未來規劃的辦理情形跟各位做專案報告另外呢 韓政司 韓市長就香港法等修正建議處理意見分別向各位委員提報 敬請各位委員指教請局長跟市長抓重點來做報告"},{"start":1028.189,"end":1044.684,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天應邀去郭委員會就遊艇觀光及藍色公路辦理情形及未來規劃進行報告進行各位委員指教首先報告遊輪觀光發展現況新冠疫情後112年來臺"},{"start":1047.185,"end":1074.795,"text":"國際郵輪共324艘次 旅客54.7萬人次 旅客人次恢復至疫情最高峰約5成 114年度國際郵輪預計恢復到港數為567艘次 旅客114.4萬人次將超越疫情前108年 旅客最高峰105.5萬人次創下歷史新高 疫情期間港澳公司不斷的升級優化"},{"start":1075.755,"end":1095.807,"text":"各港郵輪旅運中心的軟硬體設施陸續完成基隆港 高雄港 蘇澳港等郵輪旅運中心的興建或改善工程那同時協調CIQS單位優化通關效率跟服務目前所下的三港均符合國際郵輪停航標準"},{"start":1097.828,"end":1102.07,"text":"依照目前預報的資料115年來台國際郵輪預計601艘次114萬人次 整體旅客人次與114年相近沙士的成長6%顯示中國郵輪市場呈現穩定的成長"},{"start":1114.615,"end":1128.681,"text":"為促進我國遊輪觀光持續發展 江部有關單位將朝以下方向加強推動各項行銷獎勵措施一 積極參與國際遊輪論壇並強調國際的招商行銷港版國際觀光署每次主團參加全球遊輪推特論壇並設台灣館形成台灣遊輪港口觀光景點"},{"start":1139.045,"end":1165.17,"text":"那也邀請國際郵輪航商來臺實地採線今年度分別邀請三商海洋郵輪公主郵輪嘉年華郵輪參訪各商港的郵輪設施並考察各觀光景點觀光署與郵輪航商旅行社推廣Flightcruise包圍的交通社並與力興郵輪合作推廣Flightcruise吸引重遊客來臺並邀請媒體及業者"},{"start":1169.511,"end":1181.719,"text":"來臺體驗此外 航港局113年舉辦跳島遊輪推介會邀請日韓非遊輪發展單位共同行銷亞洲跳島遊輪旅遊二 根據推廣具體的獎勵措施吸引國際遊輪來臺國防署將持續推動境外遊輪來臺及來臺空海聯營旅遊Flycruise兩項獎勵誘因"},{"start":1192.186,"end":1210.576,"text":"其中境外遊輪的部分 110年度預計獎注25艘次較去年成長近三倍港公司會和國際遊輪提早一到兩年佈局航線的特性均提早兩年公佈國際客船的優惠措施提供碼頭訂國費及旅客服務費的優惠"},{"start":1211.736,"end":1232.958,"text":"在第三 推廣岸上的郵輪遊程 觀光署與學校單位合作 針對疫後的岸上郵輪遊程進行調查研究 並整合各區域的觀光圈的遊程 提供全台郵輪港口岸上行程的推薦 向郵輪公司旅行社及旅客來行銷推廣"},{"start":1234.838,"end":1245.554,"text":"此外 光屬於上架全新的臺灣遊輪旅遊主題炫到影片 加強行銷臺灣遊輪觀光的整體形象 另外強化"},{"start":1247.58,"end":1267.944,"text":"郵輪旅客的權益保障交通部已指定航港局擔任郵輪消費增益的主政機關相關的消費增益將由航港局及觀光署各依全責分別督導郵輪公司及旅行社妥適處理未來如有重大消費增益案件航港局將會同觀光署邀集消保單位及相關業者共同協調補償措施並加強"},{"start":1271.346,"end":1287.088,"text":"資訊揭露的機制提升資訊透明度令觀光署及航港局以分別檢討增訂遊人旅遊相關應記載及不得記載的事項的草案目前正進行法制作業中未來公告實施後將督促業者落實辦理"},{"start":1287.669,"end":1302.317,"text":"接下來將報告遊艇觀光的發展現況為提供我國遊艇活動完善的發展環境航港局會協同漁業署自112年起執行遊艇國區整體發展計畫藉由中央政策的指導"},{"start":1303.497,"end":1322.131,"text":"以及資源的投入 補助地方政府整體的盤點相關水域適合發展遊艇博區的相關的水域那目前迄今已補助9個縣市辦理這個區域的整體規劃10處的水域辦理可行性類評估3處的水域的建設"},{"start":1322.992,"end":1333.904,"text":"至三港國家風水區及國家公園部分則由相關管理及關鍋負責推動目前安平 高雄 台中 花蓮均已有遊艇業者進入經營截至114年12月全國專攻遊艇靠駁的專屬國區已由111年的18處擴增為26處"},{"start":1343.034,"end":1349.377,"text":"席位數由1138席擴增為1437席預計115年度將增加28處席位數將增加為1537席另有79處非專屬婆區來提供靠駁使用另外為促進這個遊艇觀光的多元發展 觀光署每年的4月均舉辦大鵬灣的帆船生活節活動來持續加強屏東觀光"},{"start":1373.089,"end":1397.62,"text":"觀光圈的實塑油構型各項產業的發展強化大鵬灣作為南臺灣重要海洋油氣基地的地位航空局也會同這個高雄市政府台南市以及基隆市等地方政府積極推動來合作舉辦豐富多元的遊艇推廣活動包括結合遊艇的體驗結合水域油氣活動以及考照的推廣"},{"start":1398.921,"end":1402.103,"text":"還錄了郵程介紹等 110年到113年共舉舉辦14場次的推廣活動 累計吸引百萬人次的一個參與 那在遊艇登記加上數的成長部分 那國際遊艇"},{"start":1414.171,"end":1418.276,"text":"國籍遊艇的登記數量由102年的129艘次成長到114年的1636艘次遊艇駕照所有102年的1756張成長到114年的32000"},{"start":1430.609,"end":1454.061,"text":"417張 另外為提供民眾從事遊艇活動便利的申辦服務 取得多元活動的旅遊資訊 航港局以整合海委會的相關系統在112年12月正式推出台灣遊艇入口Apple的這個單一入口網站 提供遊艇入出境 搏威申請 出海報備以及遊艇旅遊四大核心功能"},{"start":1454.961,"end":1473.577,"text":"的一站式服務 截至11月底 瀏覽量已達800萬人次為促進遊艇觀光的持續發展 交通部相關單位將朝以下方向來推動幾項重要工作一 規劃推動遊艇博區的發展續期計畫航空局以研議根據來提報116到119年的遊艇碼頭整體發展計畫"},{"start":1478.061,"end":1489.825,"text":"那其能持續協助地方政府推動轄區內水域遊艇泊區的一個建設那完善熱門景點這個遊艇泊區的設施建構我國遊艇遊程的整體網絡二將研議鬆綁遊艇營業的這個管制的限制並規劃推動遊艇泊區的獎勵方案航空局"},{"start":1501.888,"end":1526.595,"text":"課程辦理傳播法的檢討修正作業那研議將非自用遊艇修正為這個營業用遊艇並鬆綁相關的營業限制港澳公司也研定了上港區域的遊艇博取獎勵方案將於行政完程序完備後 儘速辦理後續的事宜三 根據推動推廣遊艇的這個活動 擴大遊艇觀光的效益為持續擴大國內遊艇活動的參與人口"},{"start":1529.336,"end":1549.267,"text":"航港局將規劃於116到119年間繼續與觀光署與地方政府合作合作持續辦理遊艇推廣活動相關規劃已納入遊艇博區的續期計畫最後報告藍色公路的現況及未來發展規劃目前國內海運客運固定航線共25條本島至離島島基間13條旅運量"},{"start":1555.692,"end":1578.345,"text":"介於500到560萬人次間為維持離島海運穩定固定航班的服務 航港局每年都持續辦理離島海運客運的營運虧損補貼 基本航次補貼以及居民票價補貼除固定航班外 也持續的精進海運的備援措施來維護離島以及東部地區的交通基本民行權益"},{"start":1579.466,"end":1601.11,"text":"在旅運設施的優化方面 航港局跟港務公司藉由國內三港五年計畫以及交通船碼頭優化升級建設計畫等計畫的推動協助地方逐步完善交通船的旅運設施 近年具體成果包括111年啟用布袋港的新旅運設施 113年啟用屏東的新園海洋"},{"start":1601.67,"end":1618.715,"text":"航運園區114年完成馬工港旅客中心的擴建同時啟用馬祖東舉蒙澳的興建後船市由於藍色公路不僅是離島交通與緊急輸運的重要運具同時也是促進海洋觀光重要的元素航港局"},{"start":1619.335,"end":1634.423,"text":"以會同觀光署於114年夏季來示範基隆花蓮基隆澎湖以及布袋澎湖金門等三條海洋觀光推廣航線載客率約六到九成 據初步的推廣成效三 為促進"},{"start":1636.064,"end":1657.128,"text":"南社公路的持續發展 航港局將持續優化離島交通船的旅運設施 目前已規劃推動多項的專案計畫 包括屏東的東遊縣交通船碼頭旅運設施改善計畫 台東的綠島南寮漁港交通船整體改善計畫 令客鎮辦理南漁開源港的後船式的招標作業"},{"start":1660.934,"end":1685.3,"text":"為根據促進海洋觀光以及提升海運的韌性 海港局處以持續優化蘇哈海運備援措施以及洗澡能外另為提升海運交通韌性以及破壞全國優質的藍絲公路 更正規劃構建全國藍絲公路暨備援船舶預計115年奉行政院核定後辦理招標作業 118年建造完成投入營運"},{"start":1686.62,"end":1711.21,"text":"在全國藍色公路船舶投入營運前將掀起培養海洋觀光的課員航港局將會同觀光署與航上地方政府來攜手推出更多元具特色的藍色公路讓藍色公路成為促進國力升級發展的新選擇最後做一個簡要的結語台灣為海洋國家深具發展國際遊輪 遊艇及藍色公路海洋觀光的潛力與條件"},{"start":1713.013,"end":1729.797,"text":"將不未來將持續朝優化旅運設施 提升服務品質 加強行業的面向與地方政府及業者合作推展觀光各項工作 其能成為促進我國觀光持續成長的新動能 以上報告敬請各位委員指教 謝謝再次提醒報告請精簡"},{"start":1741.949,"end":1765.436,"text":"主席 各位委員 今天應邀列席委員會就委員擬據上綱法 民用航空法 大眾運輸工具波音語言平等保障法修正草案進行報告請檢要說明如下 敬請各位委員指教委員 輪委員等擬據上綱法第二條條文修正草案修正重點 上綱法110年修正時行政課程推動組織改造將交通部改制為交通級建設部"},{"start":1766.517,"end":1791.457,"text":"112年行政院組織法草案恢復交通部的名稱同年交通部組織法三讀通過原修正主管機關名稱為交通部建立處理意見 針對香港法的主管機關名稱修正部分建議可納入本次修正二 委員魯明哲等已據香港法36條65條及71條修正草案修正重點 鑒於現行香港法36條增訂香港區域內不得養殖或以撒網布網"},{"start":1792.177,"end":1814.26,"text":"等方式採捕水產動物植物及徒手檢視採捕水產動物植物等規定及其罰款建議處理意見源於商港公告區域外違規垂釣者罰款為600元至3000元有關建議將罰款調高至3萬至15萬元罰款額度提高50倍考量本樣態行為出犯比例較高"},{"start":1815.021,"end":1829.462,"text":"法環建議不宜調整過高本條文應涉及到民眾權益港區違規太陽及公權力執行本部將邀集相關單位討論獲知公示後再納入修法檢討建議本次暫不修正3 委員林黛樺你據上綱法53條"},{"start":1830.763,"end":1846.316,"text":"條文修正草案修正重點現行香港法53條傳播因故擱淺沉默或故障漂流香港局應命採取必要的應變措施並限期打撈移出傳播及所裝載貨物原增加借其為改善者得按日連續處罰之規定"},{"start":1847.857,"end":1862.306,"text":"建議處理意見傳播發生海難及其他意外事故本部航港局均依香港法命傳播所有人及船長採取應變措施若能修法授權本部航港局得事情況連續處罰更能有效嚇阻傳播所有人消極"},{"start":1863.366,"end":1889.925,"text":"拖延採取更積極的應變措施原建議可納入本次修正並建議保留該局對於不同個案之裁量空間修正文字為得事情節按日連續處罰次委員黃建豪擬拒民航法第119條之一條文修正草案修正重點現行民航法119條之一僅明令得處罰未賦予主管機關命期限期改善原增加命期限期改善及屆期未改正之規定"},{"start":1890.485,"end":1914.66,"text":"建議處理意見超輕型載具因低空飛行任何操作失誤都可能造成重大事故波及地面第三人現行規定於事件發生及要求採取必要改正措施依法對於違規事件採取罰款並可依民航法第九條之七條文要求限期改善若違規情節重大則立即命令停止活動或廢止其操作的一個許可"},{"start":1915.26,"end":1928.956,"text":"那本次修正條文新增累積三次未改正後可停飛停權的規定但實務上可能在第一次違規未改正或第二次違規時即可能構成情節重大需立即停飛停權為免違規者產生誤解引發裁罰爭議建議維持現行條文五"},{"start":1932.7,"end":1953.408,"text":"委員陳培宇擬具大眾運輸工具播音語言評登保障法第4條及第6條條文修正草案修正重點依國家語言整體發展方案建議用語修正第6條所列語言名稱建議處理意見行政院110年函式未來國家語言發展報告或其他文書資料應參酌國家語言整體發展方案書面用語有關規範"},{"start":1954.848,"end":1981.576,"text":"委員所提的修正內容與行政院函式方向一致建議可納入本次修正六 委員陳雪生擬具大眾運輸工具播音語言評等保障法第六條條文修正草案修正重點將現行明北福州語修正為馬祖閩東語建議處理意見委員提案修正內容與上開行政院函式方向一致為國家語言整體發展方案用語為馬祖語為增列括號閩東文字本部尊重委員會審查意見"},{"start":1982.616,"end":2009.943,"text":"針對相關委員之提案 請提供本部建議處理意見 進行各位委員參採 謝謝好 謝謝那其餘機關所送書面報告均列入記錄 刊登公報我們先確定意思錄 針對上次會議意思錄在場委員有沒有意見沒有意見 意思錄確定那我們現在先進行提案說明 請黃建豪委員"},{"start":2020.1,"end":2048.26,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們各部會的長官我想今天提案的是民用航空法第119之一條的提案說明我想近年來所謂超輕型載具的活動它逐漸成為一種熱門的休閒活動我想交通部也因應超輕型載具的發展所以在民用航空法裡面也訂立了針對超輕型載具的管理的規章當然在鼓勵活動多元化的同時我們也覺得說必要持續來檢視現行的制度是否完善來確保活動安全"},{"start":2048.88,"end":2071.155,"text":"我想這個超新型載具它是屬於新型態的休閒的運動的活動它的使用者目前也是非常的多元所以涵蓋個人協會跟學校等單位活動本身當然它的專業跟一定程度的風險依照民航局的統計近五年通過檢驗合格的超新型載具的數量每年大約介於33到44家之間"},{"start":2072.216,"end":2086.117,"text":"持有合格的操作證的人數每年維持在250到280人的規模我想這樣子的人數它是具有一定的成長性我們希望說未來在相關的法規上面應該兼顧輔導跟改善的策略進一步檢視違規樣態的話"},{"start":2087.679,"end":2106.7,"text":"民航局的資料顯示說近五年違規案件就我們看到的數字大概是11件那這11件裡面多數都是屬於未完成行政程序或文件未更新或者是沒有在合法場地空運活動等等的技術性違規或者行政上的違規它並不是直接造成飛航安全事故的這種重大危害行為"},{"start":2107.481,"end":2136.801,"text":"但是因為現行的法令是只有規定直接裁罰的方式沒有賦予主管機關命期限期改善的法定權限所以在這次修法的精神跟條文裡面我們是加上了說希望主管機關有限期改善的法定權限除了罰還之外把它輔導到完善讓它在限期之內能夠改善到安全完全符合到相關的行政規範我想應該也是當初修法的目的性之一所以我們把相關的提案來把它放進去"},{"start":2137.401,"end":2151.918,"text":"那這次修正則是賦予主管機關能夠命這個超進型載具的所有人操作人 活動團體或者是製造廠商限期改善的權限那藉其未改善當然還是按次處罰那如果多次處罰如果還是沒有改正的話"},{"start":2152.478,"end":2168.494,"text":"就采取停止活动或废止它的操作许可证这样的严厉处分希望是透过先改善后处罚最后退场的分级管理机制让这样的行政手段更具有弹性跟时效才能够落实超新型载具活动的安全管理目标以上说明谢谢"},{"start":2172.318,"end":2198.294,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員提案說明現在要開始進行巡打先宣告以下事項巡打時間出席委員7分鐘列席委員5分鐘因今日下午3點有相關的預算戶屬單位預算的協商所以出席委員7分鐘列席委員5分鐘委員歡迎登記於10點30分截止"},{"start":2199.301,"end":2227.747,"text":"各委員如有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便醫事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘現在請登記第一位委員洪孟凱召委發言主席好 主席麻煩請林次長請次長然後我們還有航港局葉局長葉局長"},{"start":2233.102,"end":2256.939,"text":"來 市長委員早市長局長早那個感謝昭偉這次排這相關的一個議程其實是非常的重要我們我國也是四面環海那我們的藍色公路或是觀光郵輪也都需要大幅的來推動本席現在來給市長了解一下背景是不是現在來了解我們最近郵輪的一個業務就發生了這個有國際郵輪他說"},{"start":2258.924,"end":2288.127,"text":"來推動我們相關的一個航程結果突然間已經開賣的一個旅程說要去前往菲律賓那結果說突然間因為可能是賣相不佳或說可能沒有那麼多的客源或怎麼樣導致於說他突然間臨時更變行程那原本已經下訂原本已經購買的旅客就突然間他就講說我就是因為要去菲律賓所以我才買這個行程啊那就沒想到他片面的做更改那完全沒有任何"},{"start":2288.652,"end":2310.192,"text":"即便是告知可是已經下定這個旅客的權益都已經受損了我想有沒有掌握這樣的狀況是 包委員目前我們有掌握例行友人明年1月份大概有9個行次是原來是要到那其中有三個是要前往菲律賓的旅程那現在都已經更改片面更改調整要去日本沖繩是對不對是那"},{"start":2310.99,"end":2333.039,"text":"消費者的權益在哪邊尤其是我們看到是說他講如果說旅客還要前往的話我給你一個房間兩千塊的一個船上消費金額可是對於遊客來講他講說我可能是台北台中的旅客我光坐高鐵要去高雄來搭郵輪就已經要花幾千塊的高鐵費那再加上"},{"start":2333.579,"end":2352.244,"text":"我就是因為菲律賓的旅程我沒去過所以我才想要訂結果你現在突然片面改成我要去沖繩國人哪一個人沒有去過沖繩那可以任由業者直接片面說更改就更改然後完全不用跟旅客來告知那這樣我們的第三方公正機關在哪邊來協助 來"},{"start":2354.707,"end":2376.44,"text":"包委遊艇業者來開賣各種商品應該是要提前作業就是您提到的因為他有準備的期間那第二個遊艇業者應該依照原來開售的來履行他的這個服務跟保障旅客的權益所以如果遊艇業者因為狀況不管是什麼狀況"},{"start":2377.721,"end":2395.215,"text":"包含輪船 遊船的問題或者是當地安排的問題而要提出變更的話那應該依照消費者保護的原則跟精神要提前告知消費者來調整譬如說明年1月的行程那可能就要提早告知消費者讓他們有機會調整或是變更"},{"start":2395.996,"end":2424.545,"text":"那也應該要做必要的補償或是修正所以這個案子我已經要求航港局跟觀光署因為我們有一個正義處理小組目前是由航港局跟觀光署副首長組成那這一類的問題我們會請他們兩個單位儘早要求這個郵輪業者來協商然後提出該有的補償跟說明那我們的底線是什麼我想最簡單來講他雖然還傳出說他不全額退費還要扣人家的服務費手續費"},{"start":2425.565,"end":2451.641,"text":"然後就是強迫旅客一定要搭乘等於是說我就不想退費啦你最好是直接就改成我要去沖繩你就配合我們去沖繩包委員應該不可以這樣子當然不可以嘛不可以這樣子是 所以我們的底線就是要有全額退費的機制是那也不能扣除所謂的服務費因為畢竟那是你船公司片面更改形成嘛不是旅客的因素造成的或是也不是不可抗力的話應該由郵輪公司來負責好"},{"start":2452.441,"end":2479.833,"text":"那次長我想這一個部分你講也很清楚也很明確我覺得這是站在我們站在天平的中間左右兩端一方面我們希望郵輪可以多來台灣開設航線促進台灣的郵輪發展另外一方面我們也鼓勵消費者能夠去國外多看看或是說鼓勵國外消費者來台灣搭乘郵輪多看看多停留但是我們的消費者權益保障就要做好這可以當成是一個"},{"start":2480.493,"end":2492.87,"text":"首例案例未來有這樣的樣態我們都應該要一致的標準所以未來我看到我們也有委員有今天的臨時提案也都希望是能夠針對這個部分能夠更加強我們所謂的定期化契約"},{"start":2493.656,"end":2516.585,"text":"這一些是不是未來能夠寫在定期化契約裡面讓消費者不要每一次出了什麼問題都好像求助無門都一定要拜託民意代表機關然後到最後行政部門才姍姍來遲站出來當然遲到總比不到好但我們的意思是未來的這個定期化契約是不是寫得更明確讓郵輪業者他們要片面更改形成之前他們就知道他們的成本在哪裡"},{"start":2519.031,"end":2537.657,"text":"來謝謝委員確實如此遊輪我們歡迎他們來台灣提供服務跟提供旅遊方案但是這些方案必須要預先告知消費者也應該要有一定的保障所以在今年度行政院消保會有要求我們交通部到消保處來報告"},{"start":2539.358,"end":2559.038,"text":"那這個案子基本上觀光署跟航港局都有訂定這個定情化契約針對郵輪業者的責任以及旅行社的責任甚至是否因為不可抗力或是旅客的因素而造成的這個延誤但顯然過去他沒有還是他沒有想要打算遵守否則我們已經訂令了為什麼還會發生這樣的狀況"},{"start":2561.06,"end":2589.802,"text":"還是過去沒有把這個樣子還在進行中是好那什麼時候我們定型化契約會出來來我請局長稍微來簡單說明一下什麼時候是各位報告有關傳票的這個定型化契約院的消保處已經召開過兩次審議會議那近期會召開第三次那我們會積極的跟院消保處協調希望儘快審議通過趕快來發布那觀光署有另外還有一個個別有旅遊的定型化契約目前在辦理"},{"start":2590.262,"end":2619.622,"text":"是 我都肯定我們公務同仁的作為但是你剛講積極我覺得不夠來 市長你看一下我們今天的報告通篇都在講說從疫後開始每年郵輪的旅客成長百分之多少從300萬 400萬 500萬你們也都有看到我們現在你今天的報告都講說我們的郵輪市場是活絡的 是增加的結果我們最基本的定期化契約到目前為止還在第一次 第二次 還在第三次"},{"start":2620.963,"end":2644.282,"text":"所以很明顯是我們的法令沒有跟上我們的市場的復甦的速度也導致於這一次有發生這樣的狀況我們還要再用一個會來去嚇阻這樣的狀況但如果說你有定期化契約的話其實在購買票之前那邊就可以贏貨兩棄了所以市長能不能確認因為這個還需要送到立法院嗎"},{"start":2645.492,"end":2669.7,"text":"不用嘛那你行政部門確認之後就可以公告了什麼時候可以確定報委員因為還在行政院消保處討論但是在那個之前所以現在是行政院消保處在拖在那個之前我們至少我剛剛跟您報告了我已經要求兩個機關要成立正義處理小組主動來處理這件事情市長我們不要跌床架屋能夠確認的部分我們就明確法治化嘛"},{"start":2670.04,"end":2691.629,"text":"所以我現在只要確認說那什麼時間點我想今天周偉排這個案子也希望是看到我們的市場越來越活絡那你就是法治化讓大家有規則可循能不能給個承諾三個月內三個月內三個月內一定出來包括你剛剛講的這個票價的定計劃契約以及另外一個是什麼"},{"start":2693.291,"end":2704.859,"text":"個別旅遊的部分一個是船票一個是個別旅遊應該已經在收尾階段了嘛所以三個月內這兩個定期化契約都可以出來並且公告是好 市長承諾"},{"start":2706.509,"end":2729.151,"text":"來那我抱歉在一分鐘的時間我也幫地方鄉親請命我們很多港都很不錯那其中本席的台北港我想也都一直在航港局這邊都講是說這是台北港是一個發展的重鎮但是台北港目前看起來是比較進出口郵輪的這個市場相對比較少那當然你會講很多譬如說包括說它的"},{"start":2729.971,"end":2753.222,"text":"跟基隆港比較近或者是說它的水深等等的部分但我們還是希望是不是有機會因為台北港畢竟它的發展空間很大尤其是現在還有第三期 第四期持續的在填外海那這個部分是不是能夠請航港局再加強的來研究看看跟地方政府來溝通台北港怎麼樣能夠有更多的郵輪能夠來商機進駐是 謝謝委員 沒問題好"},{"start":2756.482,"end":2768.352,"text":"那這會後是不是也請香港局針對這個部分一個月內再給本席相關的一個規劃報告是是 包委我們遵照辦理好 謝謝好 謝謝侯孟凱 趙薇發言完畢好 謝謝接下來請李昆哲委員發言"},{"start":2789.428,"end":2813.233,"text":"謝謝主席 請一下林國賢次長請林次長周永輝董事長 葉協榮局長請葉局長朝委長次長好 有關於高雄旅運中心以及整體高雄郵輪觀光發展的一個推動我們先從細節來談我們的高雄旅運中心有旅客來訪問相關的長者"},{"start":2818.257,"end":2835.672,"text":"引髮族或是行動不便的朋友搭乘郵輪本來是郵輪最便宜他們的這樣的一個搭乘郵輪的觀光但是我們的旅運中心對於相關的行動不便的朋友或者是長輩在"},{"start":2838.171,"end":2857.161,"text":"要搭乘游泳的時候竟然沒有專屬的這樣或者是優先的一個通道這造成很大的不便那當然我也清楚這都是由船公司他們來做一個主動的安排相關的這些通道的程序但是我們必須檢視這個流程對於相關的"},{"start":2860.542,"end":2881.716,"text":"長者或行動不便的朋友他們搭乘郵輪沒有專屬跟優先的這樣的一個通道造成他們很大的一個不便而且也沒有專人的來做引導更別說我們對於相關的人員服務人員的教育跟訓練也是不足這個部分請卓永輝董事長說明一下"},{"start":2884.488,"end":2910.804,"text":"謝謝召委的這個質詢因為我們也內部也確實也檢討那基本上我們是雙軌制就是船一方面提出申請二方面我們在這個路側的部分其實也可以主動那原則上我們高雄旅運中心是很大的所以它的那個動線都沒有問題那我們也經過事後的一個檢討發現我們可以就是直接設包括老幼"},{"start":2911.664,"end":2938.575,"text":"都可以優先那我想這個部分的話我們是沒有問題必須要做積極的改善那我們對於高雄郵輪觀光發展的推動其實我是非常不滿意在2025年的時候當然我也提出爭取的高雄港相關的國際郵輪的一些獎勵的方案包括一層多港的郵輪它碼頭的定泊會全美或者是高雄港作為郵輪母港"},{"start":2939.195,"end":2965.074,"text":"我們相關的旅客服務會也是全美的一個優惠甚至是全年度達到一個目標的航次高雄港是五航次它的旅客服務會五折但是我們看2023到2025高雄郵輪的這種旅運的人次受到疫情的衝擊在疫情之後雖然逐漸的恢復但是進度緩慢遠遠不及基隆港"},{"start":2965.816,"end":2986.948,"text":"那相關的我們再來看2026的郵輪預報甚至我們比2025年的預報總燒次還少了20燒次那次長還有董事長或者是這樣的一個優惠方案我認為是明年度應該要增加來先請董事長說明一下"},{"start":2988.269,"end":3013.03,"text":"跟委員報告一下優惠措施是很重要啦那其實還有兩件事很重要優惠的部分跟委員直接報告就是說我們會滾動式檢討那原來的優惠還是會會不會增加 除了為此之外會不會增加有沒有其他的優惠方案我們正好也提了一個五年計畫116到120的五年計畫那我想這個部分我們再做一些檢討那最重要的其實還是"},{"start":3014.031,"end":3042.936,"text":"怎麼樣後面的這個郵程的這個連結這個部分才是非常重要那我們希望能夠把跟港市做更多的連結跟商圈做更大的連結我提醒一下周董事長不只是要維持目前的方案而且要提高它的優惠來增加其他的優惠的方案讓整個高雄的郵輪的旅客人士能夠明顯的增加高雄港當然有它的優勢高雄港"},{"start":3044.656,"end":3071.431,"text":"我們的國際空港或者是國際郵輪港的雙門戶的這樣的一個優勢當然它鄰近高雄的小港機場它轉成便利周邊的觀光資源也非常的豐富其實具備發展Five Cruise這樣的一個條件在業者方面我也看到相關的高雄港出發的郵輪母港的這些航程"},{"start":3072.872,"end":3097.22,"text":"郵輪公司跟旅行社也積極推動這種外戰市場的這種銷售來吸引這種Fight Cruise的旅客不管是從菲律賓 越南或者是新加坡來台來搭船那這個未來要持續的推動Fight Cruise這樣的一個郵輪市場那我們目前相關的這些規劃的情形"},{"start":3098.22,"end":3113.74,"text":"爸 你請簡單說明一下是 針對Flight Cruise部分我們也針對這個再優惠除了剛剛委員關心的優惠措施之外如果是Flight Cruise的話我們還甚至全船的旅客再減免每個旅客再減少這個服務費100個元"},{"start":3115.862,"end":3135.816,"text":"那麼我們覺得其實除了委員剛剛提的幾個市場之外我們也發現德國市場的Flight Cruise是有成長的趨勢那我們覺得歐洲線這個部分我們覺得也是可以開源的一個重要的來源董事長我有幾個具體的要求我們高雄港是郵輪重鎮的"},{"start":3138.496,"end":3162.622,"text":"具體的目標其實一開始台灣在推動郵輪的這樣的一個亞洲郵輪市場的發展我們就期待交通部能夠把高雄港建立成亞洲的邁阿密但這樣一個目標其實還是距離非常的遙遠那我有幾個具體要求我們要具體的優化 持續的優化相關的旅運場站的這些設施"},{"start":3163.522,"end":3181.481,"text":"而且2025年的這一些我所提出的優惠方案要持續 而且還要精進各種優惠的方案來增加推動飛航的這種郵輪來促進高雄的郵輪的一個發展"},{"start":3183.303,"end":3208.732,"text":"另外也必須要串聯地方的產業積極的覽客來吸引這些郵輪的旅客到各個景點商圈來旅遊另外我們要舉辦國際的大型的郵輪的論壇其實當初第一個舉辦郵輪論壇就是我爭取在高雄來舉辦所以很多年了 十多年了"},{"start":3209.432,"end":3230.368,"text":"那这些我们也希望能够港公司出去招商或是请各邮轮公司到高雄来采线来强化我们的这样的一个旅游的目标另外我们对于邮轮到港的服务品质也必须要具体提升来 董事长让你说明一下"},{"start":3230.788,"end":3250.986,"text":"那也跟委員報告大概委員提點這部分我們都是在整合在推但是我們希望能夠把高雄國際遊輪的品牌打出來所以我們現在在那個遊輪大樓的三樓會變成一個國際遊輪國際會議廳然後我們也會搭配我們四樓跟五樓的部分有一個探索館"},{"start":3252.848,"end":3272.198,"text":"讓郵輪的這個品牌能夠像濟州郵輪論壇一樣能夠每年都會在我們的高雄這個旅運大樓來舉辦國際的郵輪然後變成一個重要的一個品牌之後那個郵輪就會慢慢的一波一波上來好 謝謝周董事長你也是從觀光署"},{"start":3273.328,"end":3302.104,"text":"擔任署長過其實你之前在我們高雄是我們高雄火車站的站長也擔任觀光署的一個署長其實對於推動郵輪觀光當然港澳公司有它具體的相關的業務但是郵輪觀光也是你一個重要的認為雖然你新到任但是我們期待你能夠在短程就能提出具體的一個提升的目標跟政策我們希望能夠看到具體的一個成績"},{"start":3313.825,"end":3340.694,"text":"謝謝現在請蔡啟昌委員來發言謝謝主席請林次長次長航港局葉局長葉局長然後民用航空局的何局長何局長周董事長周董事長委員長好大家一起上來好了免得等一下節省時間"},{"start":3342.754,"end":3366.928,"text":"今天我們就首先先來持續關心這個清泉崗國際台中國際機場的這個航線的問題那個局長我想你知道嗎我每次看到你都在討論台中到底接下來可以再增加哪些航線航點那局長明年這個明年"},{"start":3369.216,"end":3383.604,"text":"過去我們一直在談 關西好不容易我們爭取到了星宇飛的神戶那關東的部分 東京本席一直在期待也一直在要求 也一直在爭取那何局長 明年你覺得東京怎麼樣"},{"start":3386.585,"end":3405.878,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員關心那我想台中有關東京的部分明年初的話是會先有一個宮古島然後明年的夏季班表的話我們會讓他盡量是不是就朝向這個東京的部分好 所以星宇飛機沒有問題"},{"start":3408.34,"end":3424.359,"text":"因為我也知道我也跟星雲航空拜託過他們也覺得運量沒有問題但現在是日防對於相關落地的作業他們人力不足啦等等其他的因素這個民防局可以協助來溝通嘛"},{"start":3425.871,"end":3441.253,"text":"这个部分我们在都一直会透过持续管道业者有去申请的部分我们会透过我们的管道再跟日方来表达这个我想一定要民航局来协助业者本席沟通他们很有意愿非东京的部分他们很有意愿"},{"start":3442.403,"end":3463.463,"text":"那所以時間點不可能在不可能在這個3月之前不可能吧夏季班表不可能在3月之前不可能 跟委員報告因為我們國際線都分冬季班表跟夏季班表那冬季班表就是10月份到明年的3月沒有錯沒有錯夏季班表就3月以後如果可行更好啦因為"},{"start":3464.344,"end":3488.012,"text":"三月的這個棒球經典賽這個在東京舉行所以更多的鄉親遊客都很希望有便捷的這個航空運輸可以來搭乘不過我也知道這個接下來我們就要靠夏季班表啦所以一定過了經典賽的時間本席看了一下這個新宇航空在台中各個航站的各個這個航線的載客率"},{"start":3489.526,"end":3513.778,"text":"我看一下澳門80 神戶88 沖繩89然後富國島82 高松74這個最糟糕也有74所以可見台中這個需求量很高所以我還是覺得說有時候不是民意代表大家不斷地去爭取一些讓航空公司會虧錢"},{"start":3515.543,"end":3541.923,"text":"我覺得邏輯不應該是這個樣子在民航局思考或者航空公司思考這些航線的時候應該要考量它實際的這個市場的這個需求像台中幾乎你看這個除了高中那四國是相對比較日本是鄉下一點那你看主要以神戶來講都接近九成都接近九成的這個這個載客率所以這個對"},{"start":3543.884,"end":3566.809,"text":"對整體的運輸來講 運量來講它需求存在嘛所以本席會一直期待為什麼台中因為你明明有市場但不要因為這個政策或者其他的問題去耽擱了嘛那本席 那個市長那個過去我們這個在疫情前這個華信航空"},{"start":3567.984,"end":3588.907,"text":"在台中很多過去本席還為了讓華信航空留在台中作為它的母基地我們還做了很多的努力包括興建很多硬體的設施但是疫情後華信航空因為飛機數量不足所以就明顯的幾乎可以說退出了台中的市場讓我們大家都覺得很可惜"},{"start":3589.676,"end":3607.171,"text":"那我知道明年這個華航要交付兩台噴射客機給華信所以明年華信又有兩台新的噴射客機那可不可以本席爭取至少一台可以從台中來飛其他的新的這個新增的新的這個航線可以嗎"},{"start":3610.794,"end":3629.279,"text":"华信前一阵子因为飞机数比较不够您了解那华昂也确实答应有两架应该是320等级的飞机会来提供给华信来服务所以我们会请华信来评估它目前的运能状况来安排"},{"start":3630.099,"end":3651.878,"text":"市場是一定有啦就我從數據嘛這個是今年一到十月的數據從數據來看台中的需求明明就存在但是我希望說像華信這種都是國家交通部在裡面有相當的主導的權利那有市場但不要在政策不要去干預啦"},{"start":3652.719,"end":3669.658,"text":"希望政策應該不是不要干預政策應該是要支持這明明台中就有市場為什麼不把華信航空讓他去飛台中華信可以賺錢台中中部地區的旅客可以得到這個便捷的交通但是大家都贏嘛"},{"start":3670.519,"end":3689.25,"text":"所以我知道高雄最近增很多但是台中的市場明明就有需求存在所以本席強烈主張跟建議新的華信航空應該有一輛應該至少回復疫情前就算兩樣都給台中都還回復不了疫情前"},{"start":3690.371,"end":3713.689,"text":"那本席認為最少應該有一輛要留在台中有一台飛機要留在台中去做這個運輸的工作好不好你們趕快請這個華信跟華航做一個妥善的評估啦因為台中真的我們很需要啦很需要所以拜託一下那另外這個我想請問這個董事長本席上一次在質詢台上有問過我們這個"},{"start":3715.847,"end":3731.349,"text":"這個海線地區的鄉親對於大型量販店的這個需求其實盼望殷切那上一次你們也告訴本席說有大型量販店正在評估而且有相當的興趣"},{"start":3732.489,"end":3751.037,"text":"那我看最近台中市政府又宣布大型量販店要捨棄台中港要放在那個大家會覺得會癱瘓台灣大道的那個東海大學對面的那個台中經濟的舊廠子那本席不知道這兩個的你們市政府講的跟"},{"start":3752.065,"end":3769.228,"text":"港務公司本席爭取你們回答我的是不是同一家大型量反正大型量很多嘛我不知道是不是同一家市政府公布的是好事多嘛那你們上一次回答本席說有本席爭取的你們已經有一個眉目了那是不是同一家"},{"start":3770.647,"end":3788.175,"text":"跟委員報告因為市府那個部分我們沒有跟他特別去確認但是確實我們承諾委員的部分也確實是這一家是其中之一也是好事多是之一還是因為我們是要招商引客"},{"start":3789.395,"end":3817.175,"text":"我上任之後也特別寫了信給總部的CEO希望能夠他們能夠看重台灣然後看重我們台中港然後我們這邊其實未來的捷運站跟我們的山景奧類可以做一些串接是特別特別有表達所以董事長我的意思就是說這個是定案了嗎以好事多因為大型量亂很多以好事多而言好事多是已經決定"},{"start":3818.756,"end":3839.401,"text":"不要在台中港要在東海大學對面那個台灣大道沒有沒有沒有也沒有這樣目前沒有所以我們還是台中港還是有機會是是那董事長本席要再一次拜託這個你一定要積極去爭取是條件以台中市你看這個市民的反應而言條件台中港絕對比台灣大道那裡好"},{"start":3840.241,"end":3868.914,"text":"不是那個地方不好那個地方剛好在山坡半山腰但是它在台灣大道的旁邊台灣大道已經是台中人的噩夢了因為塞車的狀況很嚴重所以你又把它大型廟室又設在那裡這個本席認為並不是太妥當的地點所以台中港路大條都可以來做好不好非常有潛力的 謝謝再麻煩你一下最後一個其實很重要但因為時間已經到了但本席還是提一下"},{"start":3870.903,"end":3897.332,"text":"這個 來 我們看一下 這個這個是在社群平台上面發生的飛機上面 行動電源我已經問過很多次了行動電源爆炸燃燒在飛機上面空服員要拿水去澆鋰電池然後呢 幸好市主機警阻止空服員市長跟局長鋰電池爆炸燒起來了應該要怎麼滅火"},{"start":3899.631,"end":3920.086,"text":"包圍這個航空業對這個很敏感基本上鋰電池或充電電池要用要泡在水桶裡面或者是用防火毯包住以後再放在固定的箱子裡面才可以不能用水去攪也滅不掉所以這個我們有要求航空公司要特別注意也要準"},{"start":3920.726,"end":3947.879,"text":"所以市長你的意思是說當飛機上面鋰電池燒起來了這時候旅客不應該拿水先給它滅不應該不是正確的處理方式那你覺得正確要怎麼處理應該拿防火毯或是相關的避免被燒傷的東西然後準備一個水桶泡到水桶裡面去這是最基本的所以我們的所有交通部的載具裡面高鐵 台鐵"},{"start":3949.989,"end":3967.536,"text":"所有的飛機上面都有水桶嗎包委員我們目前都有要求至少要備防火毯那水桶的話飛機上是有的我看了一下你們這個國際冥想組織你們把它翻譯成中文你們這個國際冥想組織說飛機上行動電源的滅火關鍵是水是水啦"},{"start":3972.659,"end":3998.32,"text":"但是是要整個泡進去對 所以也沒有防火毯所以到底是要怎麼滅這個行動因為現在行動電源太多了大家隨身攜帶都是帶行動電源那再來它燒起來之後你是要用手去拿還是要準備防火的手套然後把行動電源放到水裡面這個我的意思就是說為什麼這個問題很嚴重但時間因為到了這個邏輯上你們應該第一個"},{"start":4001.409,"end":4022.321,"text":"滅火的姿勢是什麼就是到底水澆可不可以因為我看了一下相關的報導有一派是說先用大量的水去澆然後接著用防火的手套去把它拿起來丟到水桶裡面去這個是我現在看到國際上有一些報告它的程序是這個樣子"},{"start":4024.473,"end":4053.282,"text":"那現在呢就他們不覺得防火毯是有效的然後第二個他不覺得說他不會覺得說用水澆是不對的他是認為說水澆再撿起來丟到水桶他需要用大量的水來冷卻因為他不是靠氧他是化學反應沒錯所以基本上是降溫泡在裡面第一個時間水燒起來的時候我現在還沒有水桶什麼都沒有我先用水澆可不可以"},{"start":4054.256,"end":4076.273,"text":"我請局長說明一下來 局長說一下跟委員報告其實這一些空服組員都有授訓就是說他們會有一個授訓的機制基本上立刻發生的時候他會戴防火手套如果可以是直接他的水桶他會把飛機上所有可能的水咖啡不能是酒所有的水放在一個不會有人倒酒 對"},{"start":4077.154,"end":4103.203,"text":"鋼筒裡面然後那個防火手套直接把鋰電池直接丟到水裡面去讓它完全降水局長我的意思是說我們先分幾個層次第一個你的SOP要讓所有的人知道這個就跟打炸宣導是一樣的因為就過去我們在做消防宣導也是告訴他要怎麼滅火有滅火器要怎麼弄還要消防演練那但是鋰電池現在是大家就行動電源是大家現在隨身攜帶的"},{"start":4104.784,"end":4132.314,"text":"那我們怎麼滅行動電源我的意思是說透過社群平台來看大家說法並不一致啦有的人說水澆可以有的人說水不可以澆要直接丟到水桶裡面因為降溫有的人他意思是說我先水澆嘛讓它降溫然後我接著丟到水桶裡面那到底水澆可不可以我的意思是說這個就是SOP嘛你不把這個事情處理好你怎麼大家怎麼會知道"},{"start":4133.654,"end":4162.127,"text":"說法大家都不一樣嘛第二個層次就是那你們準備好了沒有我們所有的交通運輸的載具上面是不是都已經有了水桶譬如說好台鐵公司有水桶嗎他們的火車上面有水桶嗎有防火手套嗎或者有夾子嗎因為你那個電源在燃燒你怎麼用甚至用手去有的還不知道怎麼去拿咧要不要用夾子所以我的意思是要問你說台鐵上面高鐵上面都已經準備好這些東西了嗎"},{"start":4162.507,"end":4188.679,"text":"包委我想我們重新再把SOP定清楚再要求一次昨天我已經要求淘機那邊他們有一個手提式的這個有點類似AED就是裡面有防火毯有必要的夾子跟相關的SOP我想我們來強化一下有必要每個航站跟車次市長這個常常會發生本席會希望說是不是你三個月內把SOP弄好"},{"start":4189.379,"end":4212.985,"text":"然後把設備做一定程度的採購然後接下來你的消防你的滅火演練要馬上開始著手進行然後同時宣導告訴所有的旅客如果發生了這些行動電源著火爆炸他要怎麼處理是 謝謝委員應該的謝謝蔡其昌委員發言完畢現在請林國成委員發言"},{"start":4223.06,"end":4238.763,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉請我們交通部林次長 請次長還有我們觀光署陳署長 請陳署長香港局葉局長也上來 請葉局長還有港務公司的周董事長委員長陳署長好沒有關係沒有關係叫他慢慢來"},{"start":4251.246,"end":4273.438,"text":"好 次長還有我們董事長還有我們局長我在看今天我們主席對時間的控制非常嚴謹所以我希望本席在執行的過程當中我希望我們就針對問題來回答問題不要拐彎抹角那一點意思都沒有好 首先"},{"start":4274.318,"end":4289.756,"text":"我要談的也是早上我們洪孟楷早尾已經談過力興遊人 臨時改變航行這個部分到底你們現在的監督機制到底是什麼來 請說明 來 次長"},{"start":4292.771,"end":4319.011,"text":"包委員 我們要求郵輪進來台灣要做好航程的預告跟消費者的保護是啦 那現在他已經有預告嘛一開始我現在接到一個陳情就很簡單嘛他本來他本來就是要去菲律賓跟越南的航線嘛那臨時20幾天以前就變更到沖繩嘛那問題沖繩他已經去過五六次了"},{"start":4320.103,"end":4345.738,"text":"那我本來是喜歡立新郵輪我喜歡去菲律賓喜歡到越南的航線也就是我們今年11月份剛到菲律賓跟這個越南的航線你怎麼臨時又更改要到沖繩去呢所以他現在很納悶把它規劃好了結果你臨時又通知我就這個部分"},{"start":4346.778,"end":4374.148,"text":"市長還有我們觀光署還有包括我們航港局跟那個周董事長這裡你們到底有沒有了解有沒有了解我也知道你們一直在促進這整個郵輪跟遊艇的發展可是怎麼會變成這樣呢市長這件事你了解嗎報告委員有掌握有掌握好那現在如何去善後"},{"start":4376.328,"end":4379.43,"text":"我是不是先請觀光署來跟我們報告一下委員好立行郵輪已經有提出那個補償方案他現在有三個方案一個是你不要跟我講這些補償方案都有啦他也可以退票啦問題是這樣我規劃好我要到菲律賓你臨時跟我更改這個補償這個制度都有可以不可以這樣"},{"start":4401.081,"end":4425.682,"text":"可以不可以這樣我們之後的那個定型化契約其實會納入規定裡面那應該是不是啦這跟你們監督有關嘛你跟人家契約形成你最起碼的話你要更改是要經得人家同意嘛那現在我剛才已經講過我已經Okinawa已經去過五次了你還要再叫我去那裡那這個部分我要拜託"},{"start":4430.006,"end":4456.185,"text":"針對這個問題發展立新郵輪是OK的但是在監督的部分你們要約法三章啊不能因為我們要刺激這整個港口整個立新郵輪的這些輪船的發展可是你最起碼你不能去欺騙啊什麼航線就什麼航線怎麼會臨時更改我要的是你們監督機制事情已經發生當然它合約裡面"},{"start":4457.726,"end":4480.724,"text":"裡面訂的很清楚是不可以抵抗二類天后他才可以去更改合約裡面從來沒有講說我可以隨時變更這個行程的問題所以我要的是你們監督機制事情已經發生了監督機制如何去處理"},{"start":4481.656,"end":4509.411,"text":"跟委員報告立新郵輪的品牌還不錯他也會珍惜他的品牌不錯就是已經有一個錯啊然後第二個就是我們的建設技術剛剛市長也特別承諾了就是有三個月嘛三個月內的相關然後這是一個個案那我們是希望說這不是個案有一件就有兩件我們三個不管是觀光署或是是航港局或是我們港澳公司都有在協助啦那我想這件事情應該是好 這裡面又延伸一個問題啦"},{"start":4510.892,"end":4534.82,"text":"這裡面高雄市政府啊又跟立新郵輪配合這個什麼這個共同行銷的問題也就是做高鐵什麼優惠住飯店什麼把它連結起來就變成什麼高雄市政府的好意也就是要推銷郵輪觀光嘛那這個部分那我不去啦"},{"start":4535.82,"end":4551.627,"text":"雖然立新郵輪可以退會但是我到底在這裡住的飯店或訂的飯店或者我到底連接起來可以不可以退可以不可以這是可以的 那個請局長來說"},{"start":4553.787,"end":4570.05,"text":"這個報告委員這個部分我們有洽立新郵輪公司了解他們已經承諾這個旅客的損失這個具體的損失他們都願意全額退款是啦 局長我跟你講 次長你要督促一下這個是有連貫性的"},{"start":4570.831,"end":4597.588,"text":"也就是高雄市政府陳市長一個品牌他的好意是要郵輪觀光發展來做促銷但是他這裡違約以後我後面這些的行程這個你們還是要督促所以這個跟監督有關所以我要拜託這個部分你們已經答應三個月要把它解決但是一定的這個跟監督跟督促有關"},{"start":4599.089,"end":4625.015,"text":"說實在不是發展發展就頑固旅客的這些權利基本上是不可以的 好不好好 接下來兩岸觀光的逆差這一點我坦白講這個可能陳署長這裡還是要注意但是接下來我們國家又成立一個什麼觀光國家隊我說實在的我不瞞各位說"},{"start":4626.155,"end":4633.857,"text":"我在義式殿堂 我說實在我對於只要有國家隊我是非常沒有信心以前口罩國家隊也不行什麼力能國家隊再來詐騙國家隊可是越詐越騙所以我現在對於這些觀光國家隊說實在"},{"start":4649.774,"end":4668.14,"text":"稀有其名說實在的我是沒有信心但是在這個部分我要拜託次長跟署長既然設了國家隊就跟別的國家隊不一樣所以你看兩岸觀光都逆差我們到大陸去450萬人"},{"start":4669.901,"end":4697.422,"text":"大陸來這裡只有50萬人這種比對 這個逆差真的 我們要去當然這個是牽涉到跟政策有關可是最起碼的話既然成為賴總統要成為2030成為一個國家隊這個幾兆的觀光財說得容易 要做得困難所以這一點我要特別提醒"},{"start":4698.493,"end":4715.394,"text":"我們林次長還有特別提醒我們陳署長這個部分開會我們就要把它講清楚結構不改變觀光怎麼會破照啊所以不要只有稀有其表這個沒有什麼意義所以我要拜託林次長"},{"start":4716.175,"end":4734.075,"text":"在這個觀光的部分既然要成立一個國家隊我們也支持啊我們也贊成啊但是千萬不要龍頭蛇尾也要有什麼也要有一個規劃不是只有畫餅充雞似的這樣老百姓最後"},{"start":4734.836,"end":4763.404,"text":"還是會看破政治是 跟委員報告那個我們在行政院裡面是有成立觀光發展諮詢委員會那這個跨部會跟專家學者都在裡面所以國家隊的精神應該是藉由跨平台來整合國內的各個部會的資源好啦 希望這樣知道是這樣子來處理我跟你講我剛才已經以重心長講過是 謝謝委員成立國家隊是一個利益良善但是每一次國家隊都失敗的"},{"start":4765.385,"end":4791.606,"text":"這個特別賴總統既然要成立國家隊我們這次做一個比較有成就比較複合邏輯的這些國家隊所以觀光是一個立國觀光要破照不是那麼簡單但是不要稀有其表的用嘴巴講一講這個部分我要拜託我們交通部還有我們觀光署這個部分要去把它落實好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":4794.208,"end":4814.104,"text":"謝謝林國成委員發言完畢現在請林俊憲委員發言感謝主席本席邀請我們交通部林次長請次長還有我們港務公司葉局長"},{"start":4815.872,"end":4829.642,"text":"周董事長周董事長委員早好 市長早市長我今天跟你談一下我們發展觀光就今天的一個主題我們提到了郵輪的問題"},{"start":4831.758,"end":4854.064,"text":"像我們台南大概這個月開通了兩條的國際航線要不然疫情以後台南機場就完全沒有定期的國際航班那郵輪也是我記得我在這個地方一直請交通部像公關署還有我們的港務公司要協助"},{"start":4856.525,"end":4884.033,"text":"這個郵輪能夠也來到台南台南也是非常好玩的地方大家一起來推動為什麼呢因為現在這個郵輪的旅行看起來是未來越來越多人的一個選擇我剛才那個根據國際的那個報導在2024年全球的遠洋郵輪的載客量在去年就創下新高有3400多萬人"},{"start":4884.91,"end":4906.128,"text":"還要再增加去年3400萬但是到2028年估計要到4200萬那這其中亞洲是一個很重要的市場那去年的估算2024年亞洲有200超過260萬名亞洲客上了郵輪去旅行年成長率13%兩位數的成長就非常高"},{"start":4909.622,"end":4924.804,"text":"那另外東亞的五大市場就是亞洲其實主要就是五個最大的市場那台灣現在是被認為非常有未來性你看亞洲第五大市場是我們台灣"},{"start":4925.825,"end":4949.526,"text":"搭乘郵輪的人數將近20萬人次年增率將近45%這個是非常有未來性的但我也曾提過很可惜台灣的這種國際郵輪幾乎都是集中在基隆 高雄當然他們有先天的優勢但是你就於好玩來講的話還有很多的地方"},{"start":4950.807,"end":4971.612,"text":"但是郵輪要來停靠它當然有一些先天的限制例如你的碼頭還有你的周邊就是說接駁等等的相關配套這一點我們希望中央跟地方能夠進一步的合作在2023年跟2024年國際郵輪停靠台南安平港都是掛零"},{"start":4972.412,"end":4992.818,"text":"都是零到今年9月總算有來了一艘叫奧德賽奧德賽的郵輪明年還要再來根據我拿到的資料港務公司說明年安平港會有兩艘郵輪等於四個艘次它會停靠跟離開預計會帶來"},{"start":5000.352,"end":5019.784,"text":"2300個旅客 這個當然佔台灣所有的旅客人次幾乎是千分之二 非常非常少台灣一年有113萬 我給你個數字83萬的停靠的旅客人次 來台南只有2300個"},{"start":5021.69,"end":5039.226,"text":"所以希望能夠大家一起來推動安平港現在港務公司在周遭也有一些相關的建設我們也期待這個地方能夠未來成為台南一個新的觀光亮點這點師傅也請說明一下"},{"start":5042.045,"end":5060.344,"text":"謝謝委員其實部長也去了好幾次確實我們在去年的時候就特別希望今年能夠有所以是從菲律賓上來這一次看起來我們安平港的特色應該是以探索郵輪跟精緻郵輪為主要的影客的對象"},{"start":5060.965,"end":5082.077,"text":"那現在就是相關的設施都出來以後就差最後一裏就是Access就是它的連外的部分因為我們台南確實有非常重要的景點跟美食所以這個部分是這邊的強項那我們也會不斷地來跟外商去做接洽然後希望能夠到台南來"},{"start":5084.558,"end":5090.309,"text":"根據資料 明年一月一月二十一號有一艘海洋富士號會停到安平港"},{"start":5091.483,"end":5120.678,"text":"明年的6月17號有一艘奧德賽郵輪也會來停到安平港根據我們港務公司的分析郵輪的旅客下船以後多半選擇都是就近在安平旅遊 觀光因為港口就在安平只有少部分的旅客他們會到市區甚至也有更少數的他們跑得比較遠跑到嘉義 跑到高雄"},{"start":5121.96,"end":5150.851,"text":"那這個也說明 郵輪公司是否停靠還有一個重要因素就是你旅客下船以後 離開了船有沒有東西可以看那交通方不方便是 我們也跟委員報告一下就是故宮南院的部分其實有些真的還有點興趣所以我們也希望能夠把服務半徑能夠拉長一點那這個東西的配套我們也跟相關的單位在做接洽"},{"start":5152.552,"end":5171.707,"text":"這個就是說我們下船以後可能就需要一些接駁你不可能全部只靠旅客自己去找Uber去搭計程車另外對遊輪公司來講如果他旅客下船以後交通不便利你沒有做配套的安排他通常不太願意選擇停靠"},{"start":5173.729,"end":5201.015,"text":"所以這一點的話就可能必須郵輪公司讓我們港公司的協助或是跟其他地方政府大家一定要先把這個交通的便利性先給解決 協助解決好 次長謝偉 確實誠如您所提到的郵輪靠港以後的除了就近以外它應該有幾條航 這個叫旅程對而且事先應該就跟市府相關單位規劃好以後讓這個郵輪以靠岸就可以選擇"},{"start":5201.975,"end":5222.532,"text":"所以不是當場讓他們各自去挑才對所以這個我們應該要這樣來做另外就是現在港務公司在港區就旅客下船港區現在也有大量的一些投資建設水岸複合觀光遊記區"},{"start":5224.293,"end":5253.533,"text":"那這個地方的進度如何目前跟上一次會刊的按照委員的指示我們有幾個部分現在加強就是包括的那個道路的擴建然後影客的部分這個部分我們持續相關的那個停車場的部分也都建置完了然後剩下是遊客中心的影客跟委員報告一下那相關的這個確實商業的服務設施比較不足那我們現在再加強南側的部分"},{"start":5254.474,"end":5272.356,"text":"另外就是北觀光南自貿那現在這邊的港區的北邊就是靠健康路市區這邊你現在五月水安複合觀光遊記區這個目前的進度我看你寫的是明年就要開始分期動工了"},{"start":5273.637,"end":5296.557,"text":"對 東風的部分是這投資了不少投資好像有將近200億對 現在就你的報告裡面你寫到是將近200億有安平新篆的綜合度假城有商場有什麼海洋生態學院什麼廣場 休憩中心 度假飯店商務中心都有對 然後我們也希望能夠加強產學的合作"},{"start":5297.057,"end":5311.671,"text":"我給你看一下 這個地方其實風景很漂亮啊 市長 岸邊這塑料很漂亮你如果能夠增加更多的 市長也是台南人對啦 這就是我們台南的啦你如果回到台南的時候 那個附近走一走 等你這裡又蓋起來我相信喔 對於吸引遊輪來靠港"},{"start":5319.758,"end":5345.504,"text":"這個絕對是更加的有魅力跟委員報告相關的服務設施之後我也希望跟航港局做一些合作跟國防署做合作那個跳島旅遊的部分因為高雄港跟安眠港確實很近那海上的旅遊台灣如果天候不錯其實是一個發展的潛力那我們一起來推動好不好讓中央跟地方能夠進一步的緊密來合作好 謝謝市長"},{"start":5348.105,"end":5373.357,"text":"林郡县委员发言完毕在这边先做个宣告徐乌魁委员发言完毕之后我们休息十分钟然后休息之后我们会处理临时提案请邱若华委员发言完毕之后我们来处理临时提案好现在请徐乌魁委员发言徐乌魁委员发言完毕之后休息十分钟"},{"start":5381.661,"end":5385.086,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們林次長 觀光署陳署長請陳署長觀光署學員早"},{"start":5392.388,"end":5411.001,"text":"早安好我想次長署長這個我們今天的討論主題是觀光那我想過去這個屏東原本過去就是一個觀光的一個大縣那包含我們的恆春半島我們的這個圓明客家還有我們這個小琉球我想都是許多國內外遊客的一個最愛"},{"start":5411.621,"end":5426.595,"text":"那我昨天也特別到小琉球區發現了很多的國外這個背包客到小琉球區觀光消費那但是因為我們也發現到這個觀光的議題裡面有一個很重要的課題就是這個高房價的一個殺傷力然後那針對這個國外"},{"start":5428.777,"end":5447.404,"text":"還有我們很多的這個國內的一些鄉親都反映說我們的高房價確實是這個跟國外沒有競爭力那針對這個部分我們的統計看得出來今年的一到九月旅館業的平均價格有2954元那觀光署一直對外說這是一個市場機制"},{"start":5448.524,"end":5461.432,"text":"那針對這部分我想這個許多遊客光是這樣的一個旅遊成本我想就會造成他們對於國旅的一個市場的一個接受度我想會明顯的降低那針對這部分這個市長跟署長有沒有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":5463.7,"end":5477.887,"text":"跟委員報告在旅館的這個定位方面那個每個旅館他有自己選擇的課程那所以我們曾經請觀光署特別把一到九月的這個平均房價做一個統計"},{"start":5479.188,"end":5502.642,"text":"它是偏左邊的高峰也就是說中位數平均值在2950元左右但是有78%的房價是低於這個數字所以我想要麻煩觀光署大概按計我們按計應該把全國平均以及各區域的平均價都要適時的公告第二個觀光署也把各地的平價旅宿"},{"start":5503.782,"end":5531.251,"text":"放在網路上讓民眾可以來挑選所以我們應該要把這些訊息透明化讓旅客知道確實是如此因為我們有這個不一樣的價位的選擇那我們課程也不一樣的區隔應該是做這樣的一個處理那我想最近也出現一個新的名詞叫做一個輕旅行那根據觀光署的統計民眾偏好當日往返的一個輕旅行佔比高達七成五那平均旅遊的天數是1.39天"},{"start":5533.252,"end":5558.771,"text":"遠低於疫情前的1.51天那在這個旅遊的一個支出上面有過夜且是住宿支出的部分金額大概是平均在5348塊那沒有過夜的部分當天來回是1306塊那我想如果大家都是找選擇這個輕旅行我想對觀光業的衝擊會很大那當然我們目前我知道交通部跟觀光署"},{"start":5559.251,"end":5575.437,"text":"都有針對這樣的一個部分國旅的部分一直在努力幫我們這個很多的業者他們也很關心後續我們觀光署的一個作為那所以署長這邊我們未來是不是有可能重新建立一個國旅標章或一個品質的一個認證我想"},{"start":5576.417,"end":5592.455,"text":"過去我們很多的三星的 五星的這個旅館我想很多人也會說這個CP值跟鑑別度這個沒辦法去區隔 蘇長這部分有沒有辦法做一個很比較一個準確的一個分級或是一個品質的一個建設嗎 這個蘇長請回答"},{"start":5601.593,"end":5621.893,"text":"謝謝委員持續的關心這個議題就是說在星級旅館的評鑑我們本來持續就在進行那民宿的部分也有好客民宿跟精質精質好客民宿大概分這樣一個等級那所以這個部分像比如說像確實整個國內的這塊的旅行上面變成輕旅行嘛"},{"start":5622.353,"end":5645.488,"text":"那我們也在因為去年113年度看到的整個研究報告所以我們才會提出明年度的雙輪驅動就是希望透過像我們去強化平日的住宿這件事情那我們大概現在目前編列預算大概是在23億左右希望說透過引導大家有點像是你請假我們幫你分擔住宿費"},{"start":5646.428,"end":5666.549,"text":"那這個部分我們當然也是希望說各縣市也可以一起來加碼讓大家引導大家往平日的旅行再增加希望增加更多的商機的可能性對我想我之前也一直提到說這個像我們當然這個觀光署是我們交通的觀光的主管機關但是像我們屏東來講我們也有肯管署"},{"start":5667.35,"end":5682.79,"text":"也有這個很多的中央的一個單位在那邊我想應該要怎麼樣跨部會來合作中央跟地方來合作甚至剛剛署長提的這個在這個住宿的一個優惠上面能夠有更多的一個誘因那不過因為這個我們最近也發現這個"},{"start":5684.331,"end":5706.498,"text":"有一些負面的訊息 包含這個演唱會經濟這一塊那有一些不肖的旅宿業者他們刻意的烘台價格那造成很多這個年輕人這個要花很多錢來去看這個演唱會 住宿花很多錢那真的這部分我們是不是有一個中央結合地方的一個稽查的一個機制然後讓我們的這個鄉親有所一個遵循的一個標準"},{"start":5708.394,"end":5735.505,"text":"有這個部分我們也會跟地方政府合作就是對於像這種不合理或者是因為他們的價格是會跟光屬來做報備的如果如果是違法的部分我們還是會去稽查的那我想另外一個問題就是說到底我們國外的這個朋友來到台灣蘇長台灣我們有沒有統計過這個外國人到台灣來最最喜歡的三個景點是哪些你們有統計過嗎"},{"start":5740.336,"end":5768.029,"text":"對 上面有寫了這個夜市 台北101西門町跟這個中正紀念堂我想這個跟10年前的答案差不多一模一樣那就代表我們過去這10年我們台灣很多的這個特色景點是沒有被開發或是沒有被關注的那尤其像平常來講我們有很多很不一樣的景點都出現了觀光署怎麼去協助縣市政府打造這樣的一個觀光景點的一個亮點"},{"start":5769.836,"end":5790.976,"text":"確實就是說我們比如說像我們有觀光一百亮點那這塊我們也是跟各地方政府一起合作那合作這個就是在捲弄國旅的部分同時我們也會再找旅行社一起來採線那包含像現在我自己這幾天看到一個數據比如說包含現在目前我們講說過去多數人都停留在北部"},{"start":5791.656,"end":5815.732,"text":"但是我發現這個數據好像真的開始有往南部走了像我們從高雄小港機場進入的大概跟同期比較大概增加了23%那我看到來台旅客的大概都是亞洲的一部分開始增加多了所以表示短程旅行的人他可能是比較常來台灣那接下來台灣現在開始會往中南部走我覺得這是一個不錯的一個現象"},{"start":5816.548,"end":5839.205,"text":"但是這個要往中南部走很大的一個因素就是交通這個次長最清楚就屏東來講高鐵還沒有來這個捷運也沒有到屏東尤其這個航空公司這個橫村的武里挺機場現在那個包機計畫也還在進行當中我想有很多的課題都必須要去努力那最後主席再給我一分鐘我請那個港務局業局長一下謝謝"},{"start":5845.845,"end":5874.014,"text":"局長我昨天有去小琉球那我先請教一個問題你們現在推動這個東流線的實名制的做法目前是怎麼處理更委員報告實名制的部分就是現在由這個客船業者在登船前來做檢查那另外針對散客跟團客的部分那我們也有相關比較便捷的做法那能夠提早做查核做這個這個身份的一個查驗"},{"start":5874.854,"end":5895.733,"text":"我知道过去你们是验身份证现在是听说改成健保卡但健保法的处理上面我觉得对业者来讲他们第一个会碰到有些客人他说你没有这样的公权力为什么要稽查我的身份碰到这个问题的时候香港局要怎么去协助这个业者做这个事情"},{"start":5896.053,"end":5922.267,"text":"各位你們幫忙因為我們是修正客船管理規則所以是都有充分的法據那如果有這樣的問題我們會跟業者來說明讓跟旅客來做溝通我想這個執行這個利益良善我們也希望能去防堵一些這個犯罪的一些問題但是在執行面確實還有很多問題存在這個我會找時間再請你們來討論一下是是是好謝謝謝謝好徐屋奎委員發言完畢現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":5943.78,"end":5949.241,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5956.179,"end":5957.36,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":5979.36,"end":5984.651,"text":"剪刀石頭"},{"start":5988.053,"end":6010.583,"text":"明天不能過餐,明天就好好吃飯。那你要快擋久喔?我那天看你們是在日本嗎?所以我到那邊很久就剛出來了。"},{"start":6017.262,"end":6018.022,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6052.611,"end":6058.294,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6074.684,"end":6099.36,"text":"對"},{"start":6103.456,"end":6128.831,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6141.439,"end":6156.129,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":6159.711,"end":6175.28,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":6178.422,"end":6204.491,"text":"那譬如說用黃金的黃金銀行的銀行贊助的銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行"},{"start":6217.357,"end":6226.141,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6228.302,"end":6254.342,"text":"中美兩岸聯盟"},{"start":6255.503,"end":6274.599,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6274.599,"end":6290.503,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6294.546,"end":6294.766,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6317.984,"end":6342.675,"text":"人是我們托上了求百萬的人因為在我們上面是有很多人說基本上他的種族"},{"start":6344.036,"end":6364.798,"text":"那有用戴方式的嗎?那有用戴方式的"},{"start":6366.084,"end":6381.561,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6387.262,"end":6392.544,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":6404.889,"end":6427.631,"text":"那我就再站在上面"},{"start":6433.985,"end":6454.677,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6463.102,"end":6465.683,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6481.17,"end":6490.876,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6511.787,"end":6511.807,"text":"請坐"},{"start":6541.294,"end":6563.737,"text":"好 繼續開會 現在請何欣蟲委員發言謝謝主席李昆哲召委我們是不是請次長請次長還有請民航局局長請何舒平局長"},{"start":6567.926,"end":6583.375,"text":"市長好 早早 局長早那我想第一個當然身為台中的立委最關心的還是台中的雙港那尤其是空港剛剛我也非常感謝蔡其昌委員也共同的在"},{"start":6584.255,"end":6608.204,"text":"要求讓台中的國際機場可以更多的航線那現在有17條航線10條包機對不對那我剛好聽到次長跟局長回答蔡理事長委員提到日本日本即將有可能的航線從台中出發對不對局長你可不可以再說一次"},{"start":6610.522,"end":6626.423,"text":"謝謝委員確實明年就是像委員上面所提示的明年的二月會有日本的宮古島那這是在冬季頒表那剛剛有提到的就是說明年的夏季頒表就是在三月底四月以後"},{"start":6627.003,"end":6649.454,"text":"現在就是說可能也會有沉田那主要就是涉及到日本方的一些地形作業所以你有答應蔡委員也要答應我們全力的來協調協助讓台中除了日本的宮古島這一條已經既定的這個航線確定那未來呢在明年的夏季班表裡面台中飛日本"},{"start":6650.314,"end":6667.902,"text":"東京 成田機場的這條航線也能夠確認這個很重要那其中還有兩條我聽到的國際航線不知道有沒有確認一個是台中飛泰國清邁一個是台中飛越南大理有確定嗎"},{"start":6669.382,"end":6691.424,"text":"跟委員報告也要謝謝委員支持所以有關這一些提到的這個大粒或者是青麥它是包機型態包機型態會在這個農曆這個農曆的年假的前後大概包機的期限是維持多久的期間它大概是2月14號到22號"},{"start":6692.805,"end":6714.621,"text":"的過年的就過年期間的包機的航線那未來有沒有可能是變成既定的航線這個部分我們會請航空公司來評估看他包機的情形如果可以持續那讓他包機培養之後來看看有沒有變為定期航線是我希望民航局可以"},{"start":6715.041,"end":6743.619,"text":"交通部民航局可以盡力的來促成那除了呢新宇航空以台中為基地那現在呢又有華信航空看到是華航即將交付兩架飛機客機給華信那表示未來華信的營運的能量會增加那也許就如同蔡其昌委員所講的那是不是請交通部民航局這邊可以協助不管是華航跟華信"},{"start":6744.56,"end":6750.061,"text":"積極的溝通協調讓華信的這個新的科技的營運也能夠有落腳台中增加航線的可能跟我們希望能夠成真那個要實際執行然後讓中部的鄉親能夠有更多的國際航線不管是飛出去或者是讓更多的國際旅客可以飛進來台中這個是很重要一件事情尤其我現在是沒有把那個運量"},{"start":6774.767,"end":6794.219,"text":"這個表拿出來因為剛剛我看到蔡啟昌委員有拿出來那事實上民航局手上也都有這樣的資料中部呢確實是有這樣的市場存在也有這樣子的一個運量那所以我也希望說交通部民航局在這一方面可以多積極的來協助台中清泉崗國際機場開闢更多的國際航線好不好 次郎"},{"start":6799.962,"end":6815.848,"text":"我想也要謝謝委員一直以來的支持那剛剛有提到的運量那我就跟委員報告一下就是說我們今年1到11月台中的運量是國際航線是153萬那這個已經超越去年的全年的140這個應該是108年的141萬"},{"start":6821.23,"end":6827.916,"text":"就是有增加 有成長增加大概118%比去108年整個航班也到達了每週121班整個比疫情前是增加到109%所以整個運量會增加已經有超越所以說這個部分有關航電剛剛有提到華信的部分有兩架新機我們也會來積極溝通協調"},{"start":6847.193,"end":6858.421,"text":"好 再拜託次長跟局長我們拜託交通部要積極的協助台中的清泉崗國際機場那爭取更多的國際航線那雖然局長剛剛跟我說台中的國際機場這個運量有成長但是如果跟其他的這個城市或者其他的機場比較起來我們的成長還是有空間的所以我要拜託局長跟交通部這一邊能夠積極的我們希望在"},{"start":6875.512,"end":6896.764,"text":"可見的明年度運量可以大幅的成長這個就需要大家一起努力好不好那要成長當然除了中央的努力也需要地方那我接下來要看我剛剛說有雙港除了台中這個空港再來就是海港那過去我也謝謝交通部還有港務公司很積極包括航港局積極在推動這個郵輪的觀光"},{"start":6899.565,"end":6909.292,"text":"不過我看到一個數字這個大家可能可以來進行討論就是疫後的郵輪觀光大爆發那今年度的旅客達到114.44萬人次創歷史新高但是我們再反過來看"},{"start":6919.109,"end":6937.087,"text":"郵輪進來台灣的各個港口那國際來台的旅客12萬人次這是你們的統計數字今年1到9月而透過郵輪出國觀光的旅客就台灣人出國觀光旅客是78萬人次那意思是說這個整個的逆差達到66萬人次"},{"start":6940.402,"end":6965.962,"text":"一言以蔽之台灣人出國觀光的多國際旅客透過郵輪進來台灣觀光的少那這一題要怎麼解市長還有我還是跟委員報告最新的數字現在已經是12月了所以1月到因為這是1月到9月所以我們第四季會有不同的變化而且大致上是國外客是40%然後國內客60%大概原則上"},{"start":6970.545,"end":6989.18,"text":"然後我們的燒次就是船的幾次的燒次也增加我們從這個今年預估是414艘那明年我們再算的時候可以對不起是去年414艘我們今年可以達到568艘567艘所以原則上有幾個雙管齊下的方式"},{"start":6996.087,"end":7011.527,"text":"好 董事長那雖然有500多艘今年你預估啦那問題是接著我就問你啦那我台中港進來我台中港的國際郵輪到底能不能破蛋啊那我們港務公司一直在跟我講很努力我也非常肯定大家很積極"},{"start":7012.848,"end":7025.536,"text":"那起碼你們提供已經有承諾你們有承諾也提供給我一個表單說2026預計有8艘次的郵輪要停靠台中那即將到的是三井海洋郵輪1月22日那有確定嗎"},{"start":7029.395,"end":7041.199,"text":"是 郵輪的都是會早一年跟一般的旅行不大一樣所以他們所以我現在只關心說明年的1月22號的這個三姐海洋郵輪目前都沒問題目前都沒問題是 確定確定 確定 好"},{"start":7046.44,"end":7071.235,"text":"我聽說4月7號的這一艘島嶼天空會也會那甚至也已經預告2027會再來我希望的是我們台中港的這個國際郵輪靠港的這個不管是艘次或者是呢我們的帶進來的國外旅客還有可以給予我們中部地區搭郵輪出國旅遊的這每一個的人次我們希望都能夠成長"},{"start":7072.436,"end":7096.505,"text":"市長跟董事長應該都點頭應該是OK嘛對不對好那中央有努力了接著不管是空港或是這個海港這個郵輪落地飛機落地再來就是要什麼擴大台中的景點行銷嘛上次有跟我說我們有安排這個郵輪公司來台中採線那採線團來了形成定案了嗎配套做好了嗎"},{"start":7097.963,"end":7111.987,"text":"對 我們這部分是都已經持續按照原來原定的計畫在走然後我們也希望能夠擴大這個採線的部分讓他們去多看一下台中港隔壁的高美濕地所以我們都已經確認了"},{"start":7115.089,"end":7130.015,"text":"這個聽你這樣子回答就是已經踩線了踩線了已經踩線了啦但是如何跟那個郵輪公司在討論這個定案的旅遊行程還有相關的交通配套這些可能還沒有還沒有決定啦"},{"start":7131.415,"end":7147.184,"text":"對 沒錯但是它本來就是有分不同的規劃的方式時間到了你會後可不可以來跟我報告一下到底我們地方上的這些各個的行程如何配套還有交通如何配套市府也應該多幫忙 對"},{"start":7149.105,"end":7157.549,"text":"像剛剛講的清泉崗國際機場我非常感謝陳士凱部長啊我們都說地方政府做得不好 林外交通還有大眾運輸系統做得不好那陳士凱部長馬上呢 由中央出手來協助有接駁的交通車輛嘛 從國際"},{"start":7166.454,"end":7187.801,"text":"那個清泉港國際機場進入市區嘛那現在郵輪靠港了郵輪靠港了之後要跟郵輪公司跟地方政府還有我們中央三方要配合得好才能夠把這個地方的一個特色行程旅遊觀光的一個配套還有交通的配套都能夠做好"},{"start":7188.021,"end":7212.122,"text":"是 謝謝委員 才能留下好的印象 兩個層次一個是彩線團 一個就是凝鋼鐵這四艘已經定案了我想港公司這邊就積極跟他們聯絡看看市府這邊有沒有需要哪些配套的我們主動跟郵輪公司 好不好再拜託好不好 會後我們再來進行討論好 跟我報告 謝謝好 謝謝何欣淳委員發言完畢現在請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":7226.153,"end":7238.369,"text":"主席有請交通部次長還有文化部的副市長請副市長 文化部副市長政務員好這個次長好"},{"start":7241.967,"end":7266.561,"text":"這個今天其中一個議題是大眾運輸供給播音語言平等保障法的一個修正的草案這第六條這個特別提到這個有關大眾運輸供給使用語言的播音這個部分寫得很明確出國以外另英語 閩南語 客家語"},{"start":7267.501,"end":7293.055,"text":"波音其他原住民語言之波音這個還有相關馬祖地氣的當然這個大家對這個有不同的意見所以有這個提出的修正條文要把這個閩南語改為台灣台語然後這個原住民族語言加個台灣我們看這個"},{"start":7295.253,"end":7324.614,"text":"江東部的報告也支持這樣的一個修正要跟這個次長還有文化部還有我們所有的各部會還有我們所有的委員原住民族語言發展法在106年6月14號公布施行當初我也提出這個草案我堅持原住民族語言為國家語言"},{"start":7326.135,"end":7351.791,"text":"當初這個有不同的意見文化部跟這個研明會當初也不同意但是我堅持後來就通過了原住民組委員為國家委員接著國家委員發展法在108年1月9號也公布施行當時文化部的部長當時就是現在的行政院的副院長"},{"start":7353.584,"end":7378.944,"text":"所以為了避免產生很多的不同族群的疑慮所以這個條文 原來條文 早期的條文不是這樣草案原來不是這樣 後來改成這樣本法所稱國家語言 指臺灣各固有族群使用之自然語言及臺灣首語這個就是避免各族群的"},{"start":7380.465,"end":7402.584,"text":"對這個語言的用詞的分歧而產生這個族群的一些問題國家語言發展法裡面也提到國家語言一律平等文化部在這個國家語言發展法公佈之後特別有一個Q&A這裡面特別提到"},{"start":7404.37,"end":7429.972,"text":"為以法令名列各固有族群之以言名稱 細為尊重各族群以言使用者慣常使用之命名前不以以法令規範各國家以言名稱不以法令 法令 今天我們就要談修法為什麼會有這樣的一個是因為"},{"start":7432.645,"end":7460.983,"text":"譬如說法國大學一個黃東秋教授台灣使用的語言都叫台語這個羅兆錦教授他是台灣客家語言文學會的理事長 早期的理事長過去也是中央大學客家語言文研究所的所長過去他就覺得說這個台語改成閩南語是去台灣化"},{"start":7461.894,"end":7489.055,"text":"我直接的感觸是閩南語 閩南話改成台語是棄客家化所以避免族群的他認為是棄客家化所以這個部分要記很審慎文化部不管客家人就在相關的這些第二屆國家語言發展會議的時候"},{"start":7491.071,"end":7512.828,"text":"要把相關的這些考試名稱都把它改成台灣台語 抗議 客交人去抗議當然原住民也去抗議 當然這裡面都是客交人所以這個部分要很審慎"},{"start":7515.083,"end":7541.63,"text":"還要怎麼改 閩南這個閩南人不喜歡用閩南語 問詞要怎麼改當然是在法例名稱裡面不宜台語 台灣語言嘛 台灣語言的簡稱就是台語所以這個部分 次長你的意見如何"},{"start":7544.996,"end":7560.103,"text":"報委員確實您的說明跟重點我們也理解這是委員的提案我建議在委員會裡面針對大家有共識的部分先來處理我們尊重討論這個文化部這個你回去跟這個"},{"start":7561.884,"end":7583.869,"text":"部長來做報告因為今天你的報告應該也是經過部長所看過的所以還是要回去跟部長報告這個既然之前之前這個我們文化部既然已經跟"},{"start":7585.977,"end":7606.763,"text":"這個所有的人民宣誓不宜以法令規範各國家以言名稱所以這個部分還是要不要說這個說了現在又不一樣了在這邊也請交通部還有當然我們所有的委員到時候在審查的時候我們再好好的討論以上謝謝"},{"start":7609.339,"end":7615.402,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝鄭天才委員發言完畢現在請許智傑委員發言謝謝主席 我們先請觀光署長 請陳玉秀署長"},{"start":7645.163,"end":7655.869,"text":"我看這個表就是國際郵輪在2025那個時候基隆是436高雄是952026預報基隆是488高雄是75那將來全台灣的郵輪"},{"start":7669.344,"end":7673.128,"text":"或者是高雄的郵輪倍增署長有沒有什麼概念"},{"start":7676.019,"end":7700.051,"text":"委員這個因為這個主政是在港務公司我們跟他一起合作的是不是讓我們周董事長也可以來報告一下跟委員報告一下確實交通部的分工是在港務公司然後這個所以這個協助的部分協助的部分是對我們有分工那這邊我跟委員報告一下委員關心的部分"},{"start":7701.111,"end":7718.679,"text":"我們在國際遊輪的部分我們大概母港就是基隆港跟高雄港那看起來就是它的所有的遊輪的市場的結構確實是往上走疫情之後的全球的遊輪的市場在亞太那亞太的重心在亞洲"},{"start":7719.679,"end":7737.478,"text":"那我們在看就是台灣的目前的最重要的幾個港兩個母港之外那為了帶動很多地方的發展所以我們掛銬港的部分也在努力那跟委員報告一下這個數據是目前的統計是確實燒制是567燒那顯現我們的"},{"start":7742.704,"end":7762.356,"text":"郵輪的這個大小開始做變化所以我們現在開始走向精緻郵輪跟探索郵輪為主人次的部分我們原則上我們希望能夠質量並重OK 那個董事長我們現在我講比較具體的是你看那個迪士尼冒險號"},{"start":7763.953,"end":7776.666,"text":"他現在大概明年3月會登場時間3、4月不一定預計是3月他是以新加坡為母港這是一個很具體的"},{"start":7778.689,"end":7806.632,"text":"指標有沒有可能高雄跟新加坡有機會接觸嗎那有機會變成以前我們有高雄香港雙模港那因為香港因為政治因素香港的沒落是很正常但是就是說有沒有可能新加坡高雄有雙模港的機會針對這個迪士尼冒險號這件事情我們是要跟"},{"start":7808.024,"end":7833.272,"text":"觀光署充分合作因為觀光署他是做品牌行銷跟飲客那我們是做港跟船的連結我們之前我們也特別他在打造迪士尼號的時候冒險號的時候我們也確實除了特別當時的基隆分公司我們總經理也特別到了日本去然後當時是希望能夠以基隆為優先"},{"start":7834.719,"end":7857.226,"text":"然後我如果委員覺得高雄也很重要我們是要整個看它的整個市場的動見我們去看了一下你看再看下一頁日本現在也啟動要建造迪士尼郵輪對這是兩件事但是事實上是同一個大老闆對不一樣所以你可以去思考就是東北亞跟東南亞的郵輪旅遊"},{"start":7859.795,"end":7882.503,"text":"高雄如果要到東北亞基本上很多都會基隆再停一天啦所以對高雄人來講如果我要坐到日本的郵輪我要從高雄上岸然後到基隆再停一天我有可能就不如我就直接北上坐高鐵差一天我就從基隆上岸"},{"start":7883.94,"end":7910.192,"text":"所以你以東北亞的旅遊來講郵輪旅遊可能高雄會拼不過基隆啦那也很正常那基隆也已經成型了嘛那你如果以東南亞的郵輪旅遊它就變成一個很值得開發的就像高雄到東北亞一定要經過基隆那基隆到東南亞如果也要經過高雄對他們來講 也划不來嘛"},{"start":7911.249,"end":7938.648,"text":"所以應該是如果以郵輪的母港的設計就是東北亞針對基隆東南亞針對高雄所以我就不曉得就觀光署跟我們港澳公司在做這個規劃跟佈局的時候比較長遠的規劃應該是怎麼樣去發展那我有提一個就是五輪五年郵輪倍增計畫啦五年其實倍增是算小case而已啦"},{"start":7939.935,"end":7956.714,"text":"但是你看我們看第一頁那個去年跟今年比如說倍增啦甚至都沒有增啦算沒有 算一樣嘛那你如果沒有一個設定一個目標的話搞不好十年還是這樣"},{"start":7958.806,"end":7987.953,"text":"所以我是希望說港澳公司你看我們旅運大樓蓋得這麼漂亮那它的各項設施也比基隆港還好當然基隆港有基隆港的利多啦我剛講的你如果有分配分工分區的話就東北亞你去推動日本那東南亞來推動高雄我覺得這樣子的佈局是不是公關署跟港澳公司可以接受"},{"start":7988.96,"end":8017.333,"text":"可以可以我覺得116到120的五年的計畫我們本來就在擬然後委員希望能夠能夠郵輪備增的部分我們把他納進來但是我們真的需要公安署的幫忙因為這個部分團客的部分還有很多優惠的措施是公安署這邊在搭配的當然然後港的部分的服務跟我們那個旅運大樓變成國際郵輪大樓這件事情還有搭配剛剛"},{"start":8018.553,"end":8044.551,"text":"招委有垂詢我們希望能夠把這個國際郵輪的品牌包括的國際郵輪的這個國際會議廳還有我們的探索館能夠做串聯然後做這些參展主展那相信高雄港以現在這個我們講的五年計畫裡面郵輪倍增應該是是可期待所以我這邊跟董事長跟署長也報告一下"},{"start":8045.572,"end":8060.594,"text":"五年之後也許我們都不在這個位置是是 但現在要做了但是五年之後交通部 觀光署跟感光公司都還在是是那我希望說我們現在定一個目標我們五年之後不管我們在哪個位置我們看到這一個成果"},{"start":8062.094,"end":8083.297,"text":"是不是有出來那我們也希望委員給我們一點就是質量並重就是燒次跟人次要兩個來衡量才能夠最重要還是質量並重當然所以下一次我是希望聽到的就是說你五年倍增計畫打算怎麼做好不好因為我沒有看到你的打算我不知道未來"},{"start":8084.378,"end":8102.187,"text":"我們會提個計畫然後跟觀光署一起合作我們會一起合作把資源投入所以下一次我們講到郵輪的時候我希望觀光署跟港貨公司都有一個真的計畫出來我要看看你們怎麼規劃嘛才知道未來的機會可不可行嘛"},{"start":8102.987,"end":8121.599,"text":"你如果都沒有規劃只用說的 質量變重到五年以後也是質量變重結果也是沒改變沒問題 我們也在捏要有五個方向的發展五個方向去做努力包括海外的影客包括國際品牌的建立包括我們的優惠 還有"},{"start":8122.859,"end":8140.845,"text":"國內的這個就是高雄港的這些商圈跟郵程搬日遊的部分做傳接那當然我們也希望能夠成立專責單位跟人才的培訓所以我們現在簡單啦就是說剛剛董事長講的這一些你就照你的計畫把它寫進去嘛"},{"start":8141.604,"end":8167.822,"text":"那我希望五年之後不管我們在哪裡我們來看這個的確是倍增搞不好是三倍增那更好好不好用這個方向來努力我們跟光屬一起努力下一次就給我們計畫 希望委員給我們一些這個指導然後所需要的經費也麻煩委員能夠支持謝謝好ok好下一次要看到計畫好謝謝好謝謝許智傑委員發言完畢"},{"start":8169.245,"end":8184.292,"text":"現在請邱若驊委員發言邱若驊委員發言完畢之後我們處理邱若驊委員等人的臨時提案謝謝主席主席有請港務公司周董事長請周董事長"},{"start":8191.417,"end":8211.334,"text":"委員好董事長好同樣的和董事長討論計畫那今天委員會安排這個專題郵輪觀光還有遊艇觀光還有寄來社公路的辦理情形還有未來的規劃那本期也特別看了貴單位過去五年的合訂的幾份報告包括香港的整體發展規劃然後還有海洋觀光計畫"},{"start":8212.395,"end":8230.117,"text":"那現在是114年底這兩份計劃一個即將在明年結案然後另外一個的執行的期程剛好過半那當初林佳龍部長他在109年業務報告中陳豪宇說要投入500億的500億元來打造藍色公屋"},{"start":8230.838,"end":8252.068,"text":"藍色公路那本席對照計畫書的細項發現預算總數跟承諾有巨大的落差所以要就叫我們董事長根據港務公司所提出的商港整體發展規劃那這份計畫明年就要結案了那在報告中有提到客運發展的課題裡面有明確指出我們所面臨到港口與在地觀光"},{"start":8253.008,"end":8279.68,"text":"資源連結不足的問題那旅客下船後往往都會缺乏深度的消費誘因那另外還有我們原本希望外籍的船舶它能夠帶來補給供應甚至未來可以甚至未來我們可以就是有維修的商機可是五年過去的現在依然是傳出我們只賺到微薄的碼頭費也就是停泊費那也沒有賺到相對比較高單價的在地補給然後還有產業的"},{"start":8282.023,"end":8294.702,"text":"產業鏈的加值也就是說產業沒有跟上那董事長我直接問喔那這個商港整體發展規劃執行四年的現在基隆港還有高雄港的郵輪雙目港定位現在是合作大於競爭還是惡性搶客"},{"start":8297.485,"end":8310.253,"text":"跟委員報告您垂行的部分大概分兩個部分第一個部分就在整體的那個五百億計畫的藍色公路部分這是韓港局在主政的所以等一下葉局長會跟您報告"},{"start":8311.414,"end":8329.946,"text":"那麼我們搭配的整個商港計畫我們是五年計畫所以確實五年計畫的新五年計畫我們已經在延年了那原來現在執行最後一年的五年計畫我們也按照進度在執行所以這個部分也沒問題雙母港那有沒有具體的分工的機制"},{"start":8331.207,"end":8348.645,"text":"然後委員關心的就是包括有幾個層次就是希望能夠在地的這個在地的補給的部分能夠帶動當地的產業結構的我們也算了一下大概以這個麗金郵輪的統計他大概三個月的在台灣的"},{"start":8349.986,"end":8366.632,"text":"我們的母港已經建立了就是基隆港跟高雄港大概是三個月的話大概有1億的在地補給的這些相關的農產品或者日用品的金額如果是用郵輪的旅客的部分"},{"start":8367.392,"end":8386.704,"text":"那全球的比例是每個人大概是平均是96塊美金那我們按照觀光署的統計是107塊那針對這個Fly Cruise它說有強調說要發展高附加價值那就是激進傳出嘛那今年年度的Fly Cruise的recur有沒有超過10%"},{"start":8388.677,"end":8390.218,"text":"所以我們新的五年計劃已經在演繹了"},{"start":8406.327,"end":8427.358,"text":"藍色公路那個是就麻煩葉局長那不好意思再請問董事長那剛剛也有說到這個產業鏈其實它還沒有形成嘛所以我們不只是要把船拉進來那現在我們看到旅客下船他就只是買一個鳳梨酥就離開了那他這樣不會啦不會只買鳳梨酥沒有達到觀光的效益嘛那這個Flight Cruise我們要怎麼樣才能夠創造高產值呢"},{"start":8429.059,"end":8445.92,"text":"是 疫情之後的Flight Cruise就是一趟飛機一趟輪船這個部分是尤其是歐洲的趨勢然後這個亞洲目前也開始這樣興盛但是我跟委員報告一下郵輪整個產業的部分它有四個部分"},{"start":8446.801,"end":8474.179,"text":"一個是船舶一個是航運航線一個是港口那一個是郵程就是觀光署他們在負責那我們這個部分是負責港口所以這個港口的部分我們會幾個旅客我們叫旅運中心都已經慢慢建置完成了所以這個包括的蘇澳港也都是建置完成那後續就是一些招商的部分我們會加強"},{"start":8474.779,"end":8493.557,"text":"OK好謝謝董事長另外請葉局長是跟委員報告有剛剛委員推詢的這個藍色公路十年計畫的這個經費差異的部分那這邊跟特別跟委員報告藍色公路十年發展計畫是109年當時提出那期程是到110到119年那當時預估的總經費是521"},{"start":8499.283,"end":8518.778,"text":"那520億元有幾個主要的組成很快跟我們報告其中民間投資在香港的部分是307億特別預算22億 航港基金43億跟公務預算148億那其中民間投資307億裡面港澳公司這邊已經招商完成285億所以達成率已經達93%"},{"start":8520.419,"end":8533.478,"text":"特別預算我們是透過海洋觀光這個潛在特別預算來執行那現在也接近這個計畫完成的這個階段那基金預算43億的部分是透過布袋跟澎湖國內計畫來推動"},{"start":8535.541,"end":8561.17,"text":"本席另外請就是請教局長那111年度我們核定了這個海洋觀光計畫那其中就建議航港局的遊艇通平台應該跟海委會的海域休息暫時的平台整合那避免資源重複的投入那現在過去四年那民眾也有申請也有反應說這個申請的流程相當的繁瑣必須要在兩個部會之間做切換你們有進行改善了嗎"},{"start":8562.181,"end":8590.502,"text":"是各位報告這個部分剛才專案報告有提到那我們在112年的12月已經跟海委會的這個海域遊氣進出港的線上申請系統來做整合那現在已經完成單一的入口網叫台灣遊艇入口網那我們有四大的這個功能這包括遊艇的入出境 泊位的申請出海的報備跟遊艇旅遊資訊的提供那針對如果還有使用者"},{"start":8591.042,"end":8609.522,"text":"局長沒關係所以您確定是確定是整合已經完成整合只是連結不是不是那這邊剛剛跟委員報告的四大功能裡面他可以擇一或是所有功能都使用所以應該是相當方便好謝謝局長說明那也再請主席再請我們的民航局局長"},{"start":8621.198,"end":8638.653,"text":"主席 不好意思 再給我一分鐘局長 那這個禮拜一我們交通委員會才剛到桃園國際機場T3航廈進行考察那也謝謝我們李昆哲召委的安排那天部長還有局長還有我們幾位委員也都在現場那我們現場也看到其實硬體設施硬體的設備都已經到位了"},{"start":8639.093,"end":8654.083,"text":"我們也很期待年底正式啟用那T3航廈的啟用等於是整個機場的營運能量將會大幅提升那針對民航局來我們第一線的能力來說壓力一定跟過去不一樣所以本席想要請問局長那我們能力是充足的嗎"},{"start":8655.317,"end":8678.352,"text":"我想有關淘機的第三航廈完工北廊廳的部分那他是第一個階段那主要的運作是在這個淘機公司本身的相關一些人員的進駐然後另外如果說他還是原本的航班因為是北燈廊廳所以他的使用上他會根據T1 T2 T3去做一些處理"},{"start":8678.792,"end":8695.665,"text":"是因為民航局你們負責就是運作監控還有異常通報也包括跨部會的溝通那更重要的是飛航的安全然後還有空車作業的安全那本來就是高度依賴專業的人力所以想要請問局長那屆時這個T3航廈的啟用民航局的人力是足夠的嗎"},{"start":8697.078,"end":8723.012,"text":"基本上我們現在的相關人力因為民航局有關安全監理的人力除了淘機以外還有其他所有的機場那這個部分我們人力也是一直在積極盤整那也有跟這個相關的人事行政部門再提出來是 局長因為時間的關係請再提供詳細的資料OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝邱若驊委員發言完畢我們現在處理臨時提案請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":8725.895,"end":8753.82,"text":"臨時提案一 目前香港局須訂有郵輪船票服務定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項草案送行贈願消費者保護處審議中令觀光署也正在研議訂定郵輪國外個別旅遊定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項 原始建請交通部折承觀光署及香港局建訴完成相關法制作業公佈實施並督導業者落實辦理必維護"},{"start":8755.5,"end":8782.531,"text":"郵輪旅客權益提案人委員邱若驊等宣布完畢好 請問各位委員有沒有意見或補充說明好那我們現在請行政單位表示意見報告召委 報告委員會那有關邱委員等委員的提案我們遵照辦理好 那本案就召案通過"},{"start":8784.276,"end":8809.379,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢如果委員對上述提案補簽列入記錄並刊登公報現在請魯明哲委員發言好 謝謝主席有請我們林次長 請林次長"},{"start":8810.816,"end":8813.96,"text":"港澳公司周董事長 請周董事長好"},{"start":8820.308,"end":8839.983,"text":"吳永浩好 首先請教一下因為誠如你們今天提供的相關的專案報告跟大概7月份我們經濟日報相關的預估是差不多的就今年度的一個遊輪的旅客大概會超越疫情前的一個情況不管是這間評估"},{"start":8841.324,"end":8862.327,"text":"成長6%到你們今天的報告成長8%都是非常接近的那因應現在一個郵輪當然又新又大載客的人數我覺得跟早期的一個郵輪不斷的在一個提升那我們再看在這片榮景之下我們在預算會期還是要談一下你們港務公司的相關一些"},{"start":8863.448,"end":8890.774,"text":"預算損益的部分那我們看到這個112年113年到今年今年已經突破了突破了疫情之前創了新高那我們看看我們港公司郵輪的業務呢郵輪業務的損益呢郵輪業務的損益當然啦 我講政府有時候服務也不是說要賺錢啦但是我覺得預算的編列有一個最重要的一個要件就是你要去預估 預估落點"},{"start":8892.174,"end":8917.303,"text":"預估弱點你明天要做一些行銷你明天要做一些行政你行政比跟預算要合一對不對那怎麼會說像這種很大的一個損益負的數字那我們就要研究一下是你之前是預算編列的時候是亂估還是今年發生一些比較特別的事情所以今年1到10月目前跟你們的預估的預算目前是少了8000"},{"start":8919.184,"end":8925.13,"text":"8000多萬8000多萬那你預估年底大概是會會到會被超越去年"},{"start":8928.308,"end":8956.194,"text":"負的數字會不會超越去年我們目前是這樣跟委員報告一下我們這個是應該是會慢慢的收斂但是其中有一部分就是委員指教的就是所謂的服務機械使用費那這個部分因為相關的單位都已經機械化那就不再跟我們租賃了所以這應該算是所謂的租賃的收入那這個部分我們會核實來做調整是"},{"start":8957.395,"end":8971.371,"text":"謝謝委員指教了以今年的數據往下面來看坦白講我是都問號很多你們預算這樣的啦因為你是新到任啦你還沒編過預算啦我們希望你在編預算之後真的要注意這個問題啦"},{"start":8972.873,"end":8997.178,"text":"我們發覺兩個差距數字最大的就收入面來講就是你剛剛講的叫做旅客服務 機械使用費那它的定義是什麼呢其實不清楚問到講很清楚就是我們港務公司有很不錯的一個旅客天橋讓靠港的一個大的郵輪大郵輪能夠上架旅客很安全那按理說那每個郵輪停港都要但是因為現在所有的"},{"start":8997.938,"end":9021.433,"text":"比較新式的郵輪跟我們早期我們在有這個費用的那個時代完全不一樣了確實而且一個郵輪它要跳國家跳港口它自己當然要用自己的熟練操作的那種空橋也很自然嘛那我的意義就是說像你這樣子編了4000多萬今年編了4000多萬1到10月相關的使用"},{"start":9022.153,"end":9049.479,"text":"只有406萬那你說郵輪就算了很多是國外級的郵輪你不清楚它有沒有旅客空調可是S光機你也等著誰跟你租等著移民署跟海關自己人跟你租它根本不用 它都有所以我在你編這個預算的時候非常非常不合理我就把這個特別點出來而且明明這個收入在你們的決算在去年的時候決算完是只有400萬"},{"start":9051.039,"end":9073.826,"text":"前年只有297萬可是你們硬生生看這個數字還是把它編了10倍我就覺得很不應該那在成本的一個考量的部分也是你們估算明年要做什麼核實編列一定會有落差但是落差真的要控制在較為精準的範圍為止比較合理那這個部分周董事長沒問題吧是 我們一定核實來做檢討 謝謝委員"},{"start":9078.587,"end":9097.633,"text":"好 那接下來這個可能跟觀光有點關係因為反正你也是觀光署也做過了就直接遊人觀光外籍旅客來台的成長我們是覺得緩慢因為整個遊人的人次整體看到底多少人次創了新高了但是我們要分析裡面的一個"},{"start":9098.413,"end":9115.259,"text":"它的元素 因為有些做船 原來是國人出去就是出國旅遊 出國花錢那我們比較在意的是這些旅次裡面是真正尤其目前主要基隆港 它是玩北區可能新北 台北 甚至桃園部分都會玩到"},{"start":9117.06,"end":9141.983,"text":"在高雄港下來可能高雄台南屏東都可能玩到所以我們現在看到就是外國人搭郵輪在這兩個港口就它兩個港口分別下來一次我們都把它算進去了感覺是蠻平穩的我們希望能夠整體突破我們所有的外國旅客來到台灣的觀光也能夠突破有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":9142.83,"end":9162.356,"text":"跟委員報告一下大概就是有幾個重要的市場一個是東南亞市場現在最重要的是大部分都是以新加坡為中心這個部分我們希望能夠多做一些串聯然後東北亞的部分的日本跟韓國是我們現在最主要的市場所以我們會加強"},{"start":9163.596,"end":9192.321,"text":"那過去確實也跟委員報告一下就是我們在行銷的部分因為觀光署的行銷它是有很多面向的那針對郵輪的主題式的這個行銷的工作我想未來會跟陳署長充分的合作我們針對郵輪市場的這個國際的這個宣傳這個部分我們會加大力道還有就是跟船船舶的船商他們這些船長他們真的要來看"},{"start":9193.041,"end":9214.173,"text":"否則的話到基隆他怎麼選都選101跟這個故宮這也不是很好的方式好謝謝這個董事長那也要拜託次長因為這種都跨單位的你們要下來稍微協調一下那我們也特別看到我們也希望因為這個董事長你是新到任的新到任的我這也不"},{"start":9214.733,"end":9232.672,"text":"沒有要苛責你的意思但是我覺得這個整個預算編列執行它都是帶有相關的一個計畫的你不要讓所有的委員看到說每一次審預算的時候講了一大篇然後來到結束的時候是連頁都沒有翻書本還翻在那裡"},{"start":9233.433,"end":9260.341,"text":"那我就覺得這樣子是不行的你們在去年前年就開始推跳島這個叫跳島希望幫忙一下嘛能夠除了到台灣本島之外能夠到離島嘛澎湖其他島跳島我覺得很棒啊想法很棒現在然後也編了預算立委也支持通過了你看從114億年到113年它預算的執行率大概都一半左右"},{"start":9261.141,"end":9278.463,"text":"然後到114年 今年啊今年你們要規劃說海洋觀光嘉年華事半航線的推廣是失敗的零趴接11月嘛就是今年推廣正式跳島宣布失敗連做都不用做了"},{"start":9280.011,"end":9308.63,"text":"好啦 我時間到了啦我覺得務實一點那我也看到你明年開始不編了所以四五年之後就跟當時跟立委跟交通部長行政院長報告的計畫開了一個大玩笑然後預算就這樣的然後我也跟你講申請補助的案子看我最下面一行你們是希望鼓勵船舶運送業旅行業 遊人 公司來 你們來跳島去澎湖或者其他離島來 我們給你相關的一些補助補貼"},{"start":9311.432,"end":9322.618,"text":"現在所有的補貼前面有四次的補貼也花了幾百萬全部都沒有前面三項因為沒有人要來業者沒有人要跳島所以全部都補助協會"},{"start":9325.01,"end":9343.426,"text":"論壇 活動 論壇 活動不過所以你今年乾脆不辦我還是支持的啦你在這樣談沒有一個要過去的話這樣是不行的所以我們希望跳島真的還是要去推要去推你要去看特定的郵輪鎖定它來請它來直接跳到我們這些的離島"},{"start":9344.207,"end":9357.336,"text":"直接去鎖定不是協會在辦自追自擂的活動自嗨的活動沒有意義啦所以我覺得這個好好檢討但是我們還是希望在整個台灣離島都能夠被加惠到好不好謝謝魯明哲委員發言完畢現在請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":9380.137,"end":9382.803,"text":"主席好 麻煩請消防部次長請您次長"},{"start":9388.456,"end":9407.113,"text":"委員長這樣好現在看起來交通部是要大力的推廣郵輪觀光那郵輪觀光的如果大力推廣因為它還有很有成長空間到時候消費者的保護就非常重要了因為我在應該是半年前就曾經針對郵輪的消費者保護提出過質詢當時消費者面臨一個狀況"},{"start":9410.416,"end":9432.398,"text":"就是他如果去國際郵輪上面消費遇到了消費糾紛他只能跟旅行社反映但旅行社說他只是代收代付還是要找郵輪公司可是郵輪公司如果是國際郵輪變成消費者要去打國際官司那通常大家就知難而退就面臨到一個求助無門的狀況所以我曾經建議"},{"start":9433.399,"end":9455.348,"text":"就是交通部要有一個國際郵輪評鑑機制為什麼要有評鑑機制因為你才有一個根據可以據此對國際郵輪去跟他談判去跟他協商要求他要比較照顧消費者特別是針對有些國際郵輪他要靠港 他要停我們的港當然我們就可以有比較大的籌碼去跟他談"},{"start":9456.408,"end":9484.519,"text":"但問題是那個時候是部長來部長也覺得說可以往這個方向去然後三個月說要研議一個評鑑機制可是回給我們的文完全沒有提到評鑑機制只有講幾件事情第一個有提到就是說會在網站上面公開消費爭議然後還有就是會做定型化的契約大概就是這樣我們看下一頁大概這個是你們回給我的文"},{"start":9485.638,"end":9498.226,"text":"說要航港局要協同觀光署成立消費爭議處理小組然後另外就是要針對消費爭議建立一個資訊揭露的機制還有就是我剛剛講的要定型化契約"},{"start":9499.144,"end":9518.199,"text":"但這是沒有用啊為什麼 我們看下一頁第一個你說你要成立一個爭議的公開專區可是我們去查就沒有啊然後只有在郵輪消費者這個部分列了哥斯達郵輪的三次的爭議事件處理的協調會議記錄那針對其他的郵輪所遇到的狀況"},{"start":9523.163,"end":9530.208,"text":"都沒有 完全沒有任何的揭露然後再來一次如果說消費者遇到問題怎麼辦呢我們可以看"},{"start":9531.499,"end":9555.547,"text":"我們下一頁我們看看就觀光署發文給消基會就是說交通部已經責成航港局擔任郵輪的主政機關然後因為針對那個哥斯達郵輪的這個爭議因為協調三次還是有很多人不滿意所以後續就是透過消費爭議處理程序尋求救濟什麼意思你自己去打國際官司"},{"start":9556.772,"end":9580.367,"text":"最後又變這樣啊所以評鑑機制沒有然後交通部拿不出真的具體會讓國際郵輪害怕的籌碼出來最後還是叫消費者去打國際官司那這跟我們上次質詢的不一樣那我現在是看到說兩個問題啦等一下請次長回答一下第一個你們現在是由航港局來當作國際郵輪的主管機關"},{"start":9582.85,"end":9605.658,"text":"其實我覺得不錯為什麼因為你剛好就可以用港口讓不讓他停當作一個籌碼否則應該是觀光署來管理才對啊因為消費者遇到觀光問題當然找觀光署嘛而且因為航港局私下也有講就是說他們要找旅行社有的時候旅行社不理他還要去跟觀光署要資料觀光署也不見得理他們"},{"start":9606.838,"end":9624.011,"text":"所以你透過旅行社這個機制是行不通你就是要用港口當作一個跟他談判的籌碼所以我知道次長你現在你看繞了一圈秀出那麼多資料你們還是沒有辦法給消費者一個具體的保障不知道次長你怎麼看"},{"start":9624.857,"end":9648.701,"text":"報委員您講得非常清楚因為郵輪要不要進港我們得根據他的服務跟以往的績效所以我這一次在您提到這個消費爭議處理的過程中間也有要航空局根據他們的處理過程如果他一直都處理得等於說擺爛講白話如果他不處理好那我們不見得要准許他下一次再來這邊提供服務"},{"start":9649.381,"end":9677.185,"text":"雖然我們歡迎郵輪來但是我們要的是高服務品質而且能對消費者產生保護的這個郵輪所以目前航空局跟觀光署處理的方式就是第一個如果這個郵輪的票跟服務是由郵輪業者賣由航空局來盯來規範但是如果他是透過旅行社來包船那我們就由觀光署來盯因為畢竟是旅行社去賣那個票證所以我已經要求兩個單位副署長成立一個常態的整理處理小組"},{"start":9677.645,"end":9703.137,"text":"沒有沒有 我剛剛已經秀過了這件事是沒有用你要有一個評鑑機制出來因為他不是說只有發生爭議你平常就要去評鑑比如說他在郵輪上面衛不衛生有沒有其他的問題你本來就要有一個評鑑機制然後根據常態性的評鑑機制當作是他可不可以靠幾次港的一個依據而不是說每一次都是要等到事情鬧大了消費者在那邊"},{"start":9704.457,"end":9721.308,"text":"抗議了你們航港局才出來說好 那我來處理然後把幾個協調會議放到網站上這沒有辦法保障到絕大多數的消費者包委員我請局長說明一下所以這個部分你還是要做啦那我給你參考我給你參考一下其他國家的案例啦譬如說像加拿大"},{"start":9722.208,"end":9746.322,"text":"加拿大就有啊他們是為他們的類似衛福部的衛生單位就有評鑑啊就會去看衛生啊會有一個幾顆星幾顆星啊這就是一個評鑑指標之一嘛然後再來就是你剛剛提到其實在你們網站上我們都只有看到其中一個郵輪的消費增益事件可是你知道多少人關心郵輪這個事嗎你知道有一個叫做靠北郵輪的社群有1.4萬人在裡面啊"},{"start":9748.923,"end":9756.321,"text":"所以這是一個很大的市場不是你們想像的只有一兩個國際郵輪然後可能會有的問題"},{"start":9757.816,"end":9784.677,"text":"所以我們還是強烈的建議你真的針對既然你要發展遊輪觀光那你到時候一定會有很多消費爭議而且這個有很大成長空間你要把這個消費的部分爭議的部分一個機制把它定好那我還是強烈建議就是你要有一個客觀的評鑑機制不管是在衛生或者是它對消費者服務滿意度各方面它配合度要有一個具體客觀指標你才有辦法去"},{"start":9785.678,"end":9812.458,"text":"去跟他談嘛否則你最後現在是不是還是叫消費者最後還是叫他去打官司剛剛秀出來就是這樣啊你發函給肖基惠啊是 委員您提的我想我們就納入航港局跟各個單位邀集做一個聯合評鑑我其實這個是四月那時候四月來質詢的我們就來處理現在過半年了四月 過八個月所以是不是還要多久這個才能夠給一個就是不要問A答B的報告"},{"start":9814.679,"end":9832.586,"text":"對 各位報告這個我們會遵照委員跟次長指示來這個會同相關單位來研議一個客觀那可以來具有參考性的這個多久 多久大概多久因為之前是4月你那時候三個月給這樣嘛看來就是問A打B嘛是不是"},{"start":9834.333,"end":9844.382,"text":"是不是可以給我們三個月時間還要再三個月我們來努力拔萬因為這個涉及到客觀性還是不是啦沒關係 這就是交通部的怠度啦大家都在看啦 謝謝"},{"start":9847.028,"end":9864.172,"text":"葉援之委員發言完畢現在請陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員不在現在請陳俊宇委員陳俊宇委員陳俊宇委員不在現在請王宏威委員發言謝謝主席我請一下林次長"},{"start":9876.666,"end":9877.032,"text":"請您次長"},{"start":9882.998,"end":9906.307,"text":"市長好那今天鐵道局沒有來但是因為有一件發生在本月的事情但是到目前為止並沒有一個很合理的答案跟解釋我覺得在還是要趁著我們交通委員會的時候我要做質詢留下記錄也希望也要求我們交通部要去了解在今年的12月2號"},{"start":9907.788,"end":9924.463,"text":"那高鐵發生這個通訊系統的異常事故而造成了這個班次的延誤那當然這個媒體有注意到這個事件所以呢也有去問這個包含鐵道局跟高鐵"},{"start":9925.484,"end":9954.802,"text":"但是當時高鐵的說法是說這些具體設備異常的原因還在調查中已經依照鐵路法讓高鐵公司進行設備調查並且釐清是否為操作或人為因素我想請教次長就您所知道到目前為止交通部有沒有掌握"},{"start":9955.443,"end":9963.8,"text":"12月2號所謂高鐵這個通訊系統異常而造成的這個班車的延誤到現在有掌握到嗎"},{"start":9964.855,"end":9990.194,"text":"高委員 這個鐵道局有做調查但是目前我們部裡還沒有收到調查的報告還沒有收到調查報告事後跟您做個回報好不好好我請鐵道局去跟您回報好的 那我要特別講說事實上這個事件我們所掌握的資訊其實高鐵在第一時間其實已經發現這個是有相關的人為的疏失"},{"start":9991.175,"end":10014.707,"text":"我們一直在講說其實高鐵作為國內最重要的一個貫穿南北的交通的運輸工具那當然它的這個安全是非常非常的重要如果它不管是因為是設備的故障或人為的疏失或者有什麼不可抗力的因素我覺得都要據時的回報 對不對"},{"start":10017.628,"end":10046.403,"text":"但是這件事情我們後來得到的訊息是其實高鐵在第一時間他們是已知道是有人為的疏失這個就是有剪錯線的問題有剪錯線的問題所以才造成了這樣的一個訊號的故障所以在這邊還是非常希望能夠交通部要能夠去掌握要能夠去了解不要每次發生事件之後"},{"start":10047.063,"end":10061.573,"text":"大概都說都願意給高鐵一些時間但是有些事實上在第一時間其實就已經知道了好 那另外第二件事情也要請交通部折騰鐵道局去了解的"},{"start":10062.293,"end":10082.284,"text":"在12月13號 你看都是在12月12月13號高鐵的列車組TR26的外側車蓋板它竟然在行駛中飛出去了 飛出去那還好 因為這個蓋板就是鋼鐵做的 是鋼鐵那它在這麼高速的狀況飛出去"},{"start":10086.986,"end":10091.208,"text":"那所幸當時經過的是農田區後來他們找到了 找到這個蓋板它是在農田區 終於讓他們找到了"},{"start":10101.608,"end":10122.501,"text":"但是大家也知道高鐵也會行駛到住宅區就是比較稠密的地方假使當天的脫落是在都會區或者是在人煙比較稠密的地方那是非同小可"},{"start":10122.961,"end":10141.481,"text":"那是非同小可事情那我所了解其實高鐵對這件事情他們找到了蓋板而且呢也有做出也有做出相關的一些報告和檢討但是我不曉得次長你知道交通部知道這個事情嗎"},{"start":10143.784,"end":10169.652,"text":"包委員我們會掌握各個事件但是這個像這一類的議題涉及到行車安全跟周邊周邊環境民眾就是您說的如果進到都會區造成危害就更大對那是不得了的事情還有前一個案子檢錯線那就是維護跟整理我想都有必要要求鐵道局去做專案的查核是所以因為這個是我們是會要求他們來做做把清楚的報告"},{"start":10170.312,"end":10186.269,"text":"因為今天我有講今天鐵道局沒有來但是我覺得我必須要把這兩個事件我所得到得知這兩個事件還是希望能夠在委員會裡面做出執行提醒交通部提醒鐵道局針對高鐵的"},{"start":10188.431,"end":10212.146,"text":"服務很重要高鐵的安全更重要那像這些事件我們都索性並沒有什麼樣的這個很重大的這個就是安全傷亡的問題但是呢我們總是想說因為你螺絲這樣子鬆掉如果我們沒有沒有把它沒有把它鑽好沒有把它釘好那你難保下一次會發生什麼樣的事件"},{"start":10213.387,"end":10215.169,"text":"黃宏威委員發言完畢現在請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":10243.323,"end":10268.301,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們一樣請交通部林次長 請林次長然後也請這個民航局何局長 請何淑品局長黃委員早 局長好 局長好這個今天要跟你們討論的其實是這個無人機的問題我想這個科技不斷的進步以前過去我們想說民航局應該是管大飛機但我想現在連這種無人機目前大家也是注意我們民航局在管"},{"start":10270.183,"end":10294.573,"text":"當然看到這個新聞國慶煙火的意外這個私人的空拍機砸傷這個相關的小朋友接下來我想因為很快的已經12月了接下來我想各城市也會辦跨年晚會各城市的跨年晚會裡面不管是鄉鎮辦的縣政府辦的各地方辦的可能也都有所謂無人機大型展演的活動我想現在無人機大型表演會是活動的一個很重要的亮點之一"},{"start":10295.413,"end":10312.066,"text":"但是這個像上一次這個事件我想問一下民航局或是問一下交通部有沒有調查過說像這樣子的無人機突然從空中墜落它的原因是因為風大被吹掉還是因為風大導致用電量超過預估所以掉下來到底有什麼原因有沒有做過相關的調查"},{"start":10317.017,"end":10333.133,"text":"跟委員報告因為它這個當初它是一個群飛群飛的話其實它會被影響當然每一個無人機的風速大小或者是什麼樣的情形可以飛本來就有相關的規定那另外一個還有一個可能就是說如果附近又有人有干擾到"},{"start":10333.994,"end":10355.645,"text":"那他可能群飛的某一些訊號被干擾到以後這個無人機就會被因為訊號干擾而掉下來會去就是相關的原因所以說這個案子我可能要在細部再把那個資料再調回來看一下好 美鳳局長因為我為什麼提這個問題次長也讓你知道一下其實我想國外"},{"start":10356.345,"end":10381.985,"text":"他們針對這個無人機使用的時候到底多少的這個程度可以多少的風速可以飛多少的怎麼樣型號的無人機它的最大承受風力它是用明文規定的但是我們看了一下我們所謂的遙控無人機管理規則或是相關的法規都沒有看到說操作無人機它有沒有最大承受風速的這個數據或者是使用手冊要載明最大承受風速的相關的規定那這個規範"},{"start":10383.126,"end":10401.168,"text":"我想在未來民航局在相關訂立相關法案其實我也覺得也要快啦因為其實我想提到了嘛可能年底很多地方都會有相關的這些展演那這樣子的針對風速的承受力或者是它的電池的消耗程度等等的這個有沒有辦法列入規範裡面我想國外是有台灣有沒有辦法做進去"},{"start":10401.826,"end":10428.911,"text":"跟委員報告所有的這一些操作手冊其實法人他在做這些展演或者是不只展演包含這個我們講的空拍等等的我們都有一個法人操作手冊什麼樣的機型因為每一個機型大小不同還有它是懸疑機或者是固定翼的都不同都有相關的一些規定包含剛剛委員所提的這一些最大承受的這個風速等等都會在這個手冊裡面有規定"},{"start":10429.491,"end":10453.613,"text":"然後在這個無人機的檢驗階段就是測試階段也會去測相關的這個局長 這個是商品規格啦 對不對那我說你們在審查這個東西今天我要不要讓它飛然後現場的風速有沒有辦法對抗有沒有辦法足夠的這個承受的風力這件事情在相關的這個管理規則裡面你有放進去嗎"},{"start":10454.153,"end":10480.655,"text":"管理規則它是上位階那我們在下位階的手冊裡面有相關規定那這個管理規則能把它放進去我是說在上位管理的部分還是你變成是因為我後面會提到這個管理的部分因為它是很細節因為管理規則裡面講的全部是上位階那所有的技術細節其實會規範在下位階的相關的手冊裡面"},{"start":10486.22,"end":10503.655,"text":"在這個執法權限的問題,如果你沒有放到三維街的話,上次提到南朝登會取消無人機展演的事情,是因為有人檢舉說他現場的機型格式跟他本來申請的東西不符,所以你們民調局派人去檢查。"},{"start":10504.355,"end":10521.76,"text":"那派你檢查之後呢確實你們檢查發現了這個事情的存在那通知主辦單位那由主辦單位來宣告這個活動取消那我們今天為什麼希望它把它提升到它一定的位階是因為如果今天民航局就像今天如果今天飛機有問題你民航局就可以強制它不能再去飛了嘛"},{"start":10522.6,"end":10543.791,"text":"每樣在我們無人機的科技發展一直往前走以後可能會有大型的無人機載具等等都可能發生那今天如果你把這個所謂的風速相關的規範把它定在更上的位階就不會像今天這樣這個事情是你們通知主辦單位主辦單位自行判斷要不要繼續做這個行為那如果萬一當然萬一主辦單位還是持續要做"},{"start":10544.631,"end":10569.315,"text":"當然他負相關責任啦只是我們今天希望說民航局能夠有更因為你們比較專業你們有相關的這些相關的法規範如果你們把位階定高一點是不是就可以強制的去要求相關的這個問題相關的這個表演就不要繼續進行就這個飛機這個無人機它就不能飛了而不是等到說我提出相關建議那至於它當下還要不要飛那是別的單位的決定我是覺得民航局這個決定是你們就可以承擔啦"},{"start":10570.095,"end":10592.77,"text":"跟委員報告我想應該是這樣民航局這上面寫的確實是因為我們做的是你符合法規規定還有你訂的手冊的規範你達到標準你就可以飛如果沒有達到標準那你就不能飛其實不用民航局在一一去說你可以飛不能飛因為我們同一時間譬如說像一個月我們一個時間就大概有500件"},{"start":10593.891,"end":10610.931,"text":"那500件我不可能去通知每個操作人說現在風可以 你飛現在風不可以 不能飛而是全部會規範在手冊裡面這個機型 這個耐風力不夠你操作人就要自己知道就要自己不能飛這個就是回到手冊還有相關規定的規範"},{"start":10612.292,"end":10629.817,"text":"那這個部分我們會再來加強宣導就是說這個操作人或者是這個操作人應該他要符合相關規範他要有一個預度不要再做那個邊緣就是說你譬如說風速你是50那你不要去說49你還要飛這個就是說這個預度要保留"},{"start":10633.638,"end":10659.971,"text":"那就可以避免像這樣子的一個情形沒有 當然 沒關係現階段當然你們覺得這樣夠用但是我覺得本席是覺得說如果能夠你把他這個相關的這個位階提升一點或許就是你們強勢介入的角度會高一點因為像這個案子是你們也確實派員檢查你們派人到現場也確定這個事情的存在了可是你們不能去要求他不可以飛是變成你們要跟主辦單位講主辦單位來下這個決定"},{"start":10662.813,"end":10679.055,"text":"這我覺得又過了一層那如果你們當下就能決定的話我想就不用有這麼多聯繫的時間了嘛因為畢竟這種飛機的事情雖然它是無人機現在都是小型在商業在做的可是這個無人機我認為還是整體來講算是你們的主要業務的裡面了好不好"},{"start":10679.335,"end":10704.358,"text":"好那謝謝委員提醒我們最後一個問題因為時間到了但是還是要講一樣還是無人機的問題就是其實之前我們面對無人機當然像無人機我為什麼會想到這個事情因為無人機現在很多是用來取代煙火取代爆竹等等這樣子的規範那過去呢在針對爆竹煙火釋放申請的時候裡面是規範在特定情況下面會有停止釋放措施那比如說安全設施不足現場風速等等等等"},{"start":10705.279,"end":10733.93,"text":"那現在無人機的表演條件在相關的規範裡面你們只有限定說不在管制區而已那但是很多的活動現在包含現在我提到很快來的跨年相關的活動到底這個把關的機制只要在不在只要是在不在管制就可以了嗎它有沒有更多的規範或是說比如現場的人口密集度或是現場有其他的干擾的因素存在這個會不會在你們相關的審查機制裡面還是只要它不在無人機就可以了"},{"start":10734.939,"end":10753.876,"text":"跟委員報告這一個所看到的是申請區域那剛剛講到在人群上空或者是建築物我們有五不五不要這個相關的規定其實在民航法裡面也有提到那在真正做展演的時候其實都有要求這個申請者"},{"start":10756.838,"end":10776.83,"text":"操作者都要完全符合相關規定譬如說聚人群如果你要在人群上空那你要有相關的操作能力操作限制所以這一些其實都有相關的規範那這個部分我們其實在核准的時候其實都有一再提醒對於相關民眾公共安全的部分"},{"start":10777.11,"end":10798.869,"text":"好 謝謝 局長我想就是不要只有提醒我們就是希望能夠很明確的讓大家知道說不是只有提醒你提醒比較像道德勸說我們希望說就很明確的把它放到規範裡面去讓大家能夠依這個規範去執行讓大家也比較審視好不好 局長 次長好 謝謝黃建豪委員發言完畢現在請陳雪生委員發言"},{"start":10809.109,"end":10836.881,"text":"謝謝主席 是不是請次長請次長還有港澳公司 銀行局請周永輝局長 請何淑萍局長委員長次長早我今天跟你聊一下那個馬祖的觀光沒有什麼人去金門那邊都突破一百萬了大陸過來我們只有幾千個人"},{"start":10839.559,"end":10846.383,"text":"這個當然我也不能怪說我們觀光局不努力啊什麼的觀光署不努力也不是小山聰啊不是國內旅遊 國內旅遊去馬祖還是蠻多的我們一年都有三四十萬人搭配我等一下會跟你聊這個現在那個機場不是擴建嗎擴建 何局長你瞭解嗎"},{"start":10867.532,"end":10890.721,"text":"是不是我上次提的辦辦公你聽懂了沒有有聽懂這個部分委員其實過去以來一直在關切就是說施工期間關閉當初依據這個綜合規劃裡面一邊施工一邊進場嘛然後後來就有提到是說是不是有可能一邊施工一邊進場的考量那現在我們這個案子因為要築堤造地所以已經違給港務公司"},{"start":10891.281,"end":10907.212,"text":"那現在港務公司這邊也對外就是有去做這個細設商的一個招標那在細設過程中我們會再來考慮委員的相關的這個提醒為什麼請港務公司也回答一下你們是不是照這個辦辦公的方式請世襲那邊去"},{"start":10908.412,"end":10928.285,"text":"對 目前還在評估中然後那個王景榮總經理也特別去了一趟馬祖就是我想說不是馬祖 世西世西有沒有跟他們世西飆了嘛就一起 對 一起討論那他們的態度怎麼樣目前還是要做工程分析了可以達到目標嗎"},{"start":10929.365,"end":10942.277,"text":"目前還不曉得因為有滿多的他有幾個要處理一方面是工程問題二方面也是海象相關的氣象這些都有高度好 何局長"},{"start":10943.12,"end":10966.414,"text":"跟委員報告 其實最核心的還是因為它填足期間足體是可以可是我們造地的時候它要夯實所以它需要那個沒問題我是講填海的時候它的消波塊跟那個沉箱有沒有能夠從台北這邊做 台灣這邊做做完以後把它拖過去"},{"start":10967.955,"end":10993.605,"text":"這個階段成本會比較高一點這個階段我們會朝這樣的方式處理那到了以後他如果相關機具沒有在跑道的尾端跑道尾端不能有障礙物嘛那那個階段我們就飛機可以飛所以在細部一點等到足地的時候那那個土要夯實那個一兩年沒關係啦我們可以忍受但你說八年十年我小英講真的受不了了"},{"start":10995.446,"end":11020.105,"text":"這個我們會委員的提示我們會來評估把那個時間看有沒有辦法來縮短透過工程技術因為施工期間造成的不便等等我們這個都可以想辦法處理有一些客人到北竿去我們在北竿的部分旅館的部分給他一些優惠還有發購物券或是乘船的話北竿的居民我們免費"},{"start":11021.403,"end":11049.287,"text":"這些都可以在這個經費裡面我們來處理這方面的問題問題是施工沒辦法處理你知道嗎造成一定會造成民眾的損失嘛一定會有嘛當然我們飛機試試兩次啦這個說真的不做不行啦不做不行勢在必行啦一定要做的一定要做的那現在我希望就是說民防局我想次長你也是民防局局長出身嘛"},{"start":11050.669,"end":11073.168,"text":"你也會很支持這些事情好不好你指導他們一下了解 非安能確保的情況下我們盡量朝那個方向來處理就辦公施工啦對 主要還是非安要能確保好 那周局長謝謝你那個剛上任董事長應該慢慢的業務就駕輕就熟了好 謝謝兩位好不好 謝謝另外我就請那個觀光署署長主席請署長"},{"start":11079.545,"end":11108.635,"text":"市長署長我好幾次質詢提到馬阿祖的土地有80%是軍備局跟國產署的你說一個縣20%王中民縣長他是管了20%的土地人民主權其他都在軍隊的手裡那他很多廢棄的雲區改天有機會你到馬阿祖去考察的時候我帶你去看"},{"start":11109.807,"end":11136.915,"text":"私部喔 以前的私部現在把它圍起來了 沒用還有很多旅部啊 廢棄的營區現在只有一個排我去金門也去看過啊金門的私部現在變成一個排在那邊 一個班他那個土地放在那邊幹什麼啊是每天準備打仗嗎 也不是吧 是不是所以我為什麼要提這個齁我希望觀光署啊"},{"start":11139.072,"end":11163.961,"text":"當然縣政府可以去檢討我也跟國防部提過公安署這邊協助縣政府怎麼樣把這個廢肢的營區的土地讓縣政府來做管理那麼很麻煩的是撥用以後的程序不可以作為商業的用途那可以跟公安署這邊商量一下"},{"start":11165.441,"end":11174.626,"text":"比如說旅館我們可以協助開發嘛可以共同持有共同土地租給他30年50年可以做這樣一個動作嗎是 文雲好這個部分我們是不是請馬館處再配合縣政府這邊一起來盤點一下相關可用的可用的土地跟之後想辦法來活化它對啦"},{"start":11196.265,"end":11220.428,"text":"主要就是有哪些地方可以釋出或者是他有潛力來做開發我想剛剛署長提的也確實我請馬管處跟縣府這邊先去了解盤點盤點就個案去找國防部看看可不可以處理你看我們在旅客坐飛機去 機位好訂但是旅館很難 訂不到旅館"},{"start":11221.775,"end":11248.585,"text":"一間旅館都訂不到這個是很麻煩的事情你知道他怎麼發展嗎他怎麼發展就是當然可以管制觀光人口的數量問題他目前還沒有到達飽和還有發展的空間是不是請署長這邊能夠協助聯鄉縣政府好不好有關土地的利用的時候再那個一下好不好"},{"start":11250.273,"end":11269.166,"text":"其他還有就是 你請回今天那個 航港局沒來喔 喔 航港局葉協榮局長好 很快 一分鐘葉局長 那個藍色公路啊不是有做那個海上運輸的那個備援船嗎那個進度怎麼樣啦 要做一條八千噸的因為今天講到那個遊輪觀光啦"},{"start":11272.022,"end":11296.267,"text":"所以我想到這條船啦 進度怎麼樣呢 跟我們報告最新的進度那整個綜合規劃我們已經完成了那我們在九月份報布之後 部裡面有相關的審查一件請距離再修正我們在最新在12月12號已經重新再報布那我們會跟部裡面這邊密切溝通盡快完成這個 你能不能稍微說明一下他的建造期程"},{"start":11297.047,"end":11314.97,"text":"跟委員報告我們預計是在明年這個明年上半年行政院核定之後馬上來進行採購照片的作業後年編預算對116年編預算118年底來建造完成然後119年初來年建造完成118年底"},{"start":11317.241,"end":11338.019,"text":"118年建造完成是可以建造完成嗎可以可以我們現在船屋的部分也都有那你們預定在國內建造船還是國外包委員我們目前設定還是以日本船廠為優先因為他們的技術你可以參考一下我們的新台馬輪非常不錯的船你把噸位加大就好了"},{"start":11338.519,"end":11347.25,"text":"有有是是我們大概是朝這個方向委員剛剛指導的方向來好謝謝因為時間到了 趙委在催了謝謝你們好謝謝趙委陳雪山委員發言完畢現在請謝榮介委員發言"},{"start":11366.201,"end":11373.044,"text":"主席我請部長來 請林次長部長早部長今天早上沒來委員早委員早早齁次長你會不會受罪不是很行 會有 但是沒有很厲害台灣是海德國家四民都害"},{"start":11394.028,"end":11412.517,"text":"我看你們報告裡面 針對海上的流油二十年來大家都說要退窮但到底是因為國防的關係 尤其是風俗的關係一直都沒辦法得到大幅度的開放那麼我看你們報告的手裡就是說針對國外的郵輪來的出手跟大來的領導"},{"start":11423.001,"end":11426.163,"text":"你知道現在國家經來的路由漸漸衰弱 收入不太好看尤其是大陸客來關公的收容大幅度減少那麼不要看到你們站在海上公路這條納釋的公路裡面做一個完美的"},{"start":11449.008,"end":11471.546,"text":"海上如有那麼串連台灣這麼多港口這麼美麗的風景尤其過去說沒青是酸沒青是海這個美麗的台海呢身為一個海洋國家四面全海我想我看你們的報告"},{"start":11477.79,"end":11498.296,"text":"可以說沒有急救不知道你是怎麼看法跟委員報告主要就像你說的我們國家都說孩子不要去靠海所以傳統上是安全但是現在的方式就是希望向海自盡 親近海洋所以基本上來講這也已經20多年了"},{"start":11500.016,"end":11516.829,"text":"我們報告裡面我們有特別說郵輪是一回事另外一個是郵艇的操作郵艇操作我不知道委員有沒有注意到郵艇我知道郵艇是屬於比較人說比較高級的路由我現在跟你說除了大型的郵輪以外台灣是一個很好可以開發中型海上中型輪船海上的觀光路由這等於"},{"start":11528.317,"end":11539.021,"text":"跟再來的路由一樣,就是國內的這種海上路由尤其台灣有這麼美麗的海洋,有這麼多港口、經典完全不要看到你們本身來這裡兩年,你們所有的報告,裡面不要提出"},{"start":11550.12,"end":11561.672,"text":"有啦 我們藍色公路開始在發展那藍色公路你告訴我你藍色公路到一個點有港口到港口裡面在到來路由有拿到這個重點我先腳掌給你報告好不好好 來 你講"},{"start":11567.452,"end":11578.545,"text":"跟委員報告 今年我們有三條事辦的航線主要有包括基隆到花蓮 布袋到平和金門布袋到平和金門這是運輸"},{"start":11587.074,"end":11610.47,"text":"那麼你告訴我陸遊的領口跟往來的人數是 跟委員報告 布袋旁邊近年有兩個往返的航班那總共有1400人定位那載客率有六成好啦 你不要再說這個就漏氣了我本身想問的是 針對國內的國旅的發展"},{"start":11616.834,"end":11625.279,"text":"可以對陸上到來的路由來結合海牛 納食的公路做一個配套啦不是說點對點 起跟回不是這樣嘛你們有辦法擬定一個這種初期的價位嗎"},{"start":11636.677,"end":11657.116,"text":"有辦法嗎有包委員感謝委員的提醒那我們今年的事辦的這個藍色公路的這個遊程的活動有包括岸上的遊程也包括這個船上的相關的公共活動你這個月來擬定這個界位起來本身跟你共同探討"},{"start":11658.337,"end":11669.197,"text":"因為本身主義這個海上活動很久了我也很愛這個油漿啊這種的吃但是這不是一般市民有得負擔的嘛"},{"start":11669.963,"end":11676.207,"text":"我現在跟你說的就是在將來的陸遊結合遊艇台灣可以開創一條新的觀光站讓我們這個觀光三峽這裡現在很困難這樣好不好好 我請香港局局長幾位幾位要來請教各位有辦法嗎"},{"start":11690.417,"end":11707.513,"text":"是 包委員 我們一個月把個委構想提報出來來辦公室 我跟你們談談我跟你們做一個全都的談談我本身有哪一些初期的個委嘛 最晚嘛 好不好好 感謝你 委員信聰界委員發言完畢"},{"start":11718.729,"end":11738.43,"text":"謝謝 現在請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在現在請王美惠委員 王美惠委員 王美惠委員不在現在請黃婕委員 黃婕委員 黃婕委員不在現在請賴惠元委員發言"},{"start":11746.505,"end":11749.914,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請那個交通部次長請您次長"},{"start":11756.114,"end":11782.928,"text":"賴委員早市長早安我想藍色公路的一個現況跟未來的發展的一個規劃那要試著用利用這個時間跟就是市長討論一下就是我們的將軍漁港將軍漁港其實他就是位在那個台61線台61線就是這樣子延伸下來的時候其實我們知道有三個三個就是"},{"start":11783.908,"end":11800.086,"text":"台61線那個大的那個新豐 大安 口福這些休息站這些休息站基本上就是他的萊克數是非常穩定那也變成就是說沿線的駕駛他們必須要停靠的地方"},{"start":11800.666,"end":11829.185,"text":"那這些休息站其實也帶來周邊的消費跟地方的一個觀光那其實他是有需求的一個存在模型的一個可行性那除了跟那個次長溝通是休息站將軍休息站以外還要試著就是先跟那個次長提到了就是說我們的將軍漁港將軍漁港事實上就是說他其實存在存在已經很很長的一段的時間了他其實是"},{"start":11830.126,"end":11842.832,"text":"沿海最大的一個漁港之一它不管是觀光儀式還是說漁貨量的拍賣還是餐飲甚至海上的交通它是可以從澎湖的南方四島到東極島的一個航線"},{"start":11844.315,"end":11859.765,"text":"那我在這裡要請教一下次長就是我們將軍移港的這一個就是說不管是在觀光休閒還是水上的交通你覺得那個目前目前就是所有的一個進行你是不是滿意"},{"start":11862.14,"end":11888.088,"text":"包委員 將軍漁港基本上是歸漁業署跟地方政府來輔導但是基本上我們觀光署的部分應該那個應該是西拉雅還是雲嘉南風景局管理處我想我們還是可以協助他來瞭解這邊的潛力那您提到這邊要不要設休息站這個我想請公路局來評估一下大概您前面提的這三個休息站距離大概"},{"start":11888.928,"end":11900.758,"text":"每一個大概一到兩個小時的車程所以如果以口湖來講往下將軍北門那附近也應該有一個休息區會比較有利於旅客的這個休息跟補給"},{"start":11901.598,"end":11921.826,"text":"沒有錯 沒有錯就是說其實我們台南是南北狹長那如果從口湖一直就是說貫穿到我嘉義縣然後就是延伸到台南其實光是我們台南這就是在西濱的觀光道路上面就是要開五十分鐘可是顯然獨切六十一線的將軍休息站"},{"start":11922.566,"end":11939.932,"text":"那在次長我要提醒你就是說在2021年11月4號我執行交通部的時候其實蘇院長就引諾就是要落腳這個將軍交流道旁邊的工有地可是這個三四年過去了進度在哪裡到底是哪裡出現的問題"},{"start":11942.945,"end":11966.333,"text":"報言這個是公路局在處理我可能要瞭解一下他在土地的取得以及相關的開發商有沒有有沒有招商的可能因為畢竟這個地方算是漁港嘛您剛提的海鮮或是沒有我現在講的是台61線喔對西濱公路那他主要是公路局在設置啦"},{"start":11968.335,"end":11983.087,"text":"那基本上我剛提的區位上將軍跟北門附近應該可以有一個休息區只是說這塊地有沒有是不是我們工友的還是需要再跟縣府或民間來取得這個必須要再瞭解"},{"start":11983.683,"end":12002.276,"text":"那事實上其實在早期的一個規劃的時候這個都已經是那個都是已經成案了那我們不知道就是說到底就是說等於是地方政府跟中央一直在互踢皮球委員這樣好不好我請公路局馬上跟您聯絡好不好看看目前問題跟狀況到哪個"},{"start":12003.356,"end":12027.842,"text":"對 因為我需要知道就是說你一定後續的一個規劃 到底這個時程的一個推動是到什麼什麼樣的一個就是階段而且這個都已經是前那個行政院長答應的一個休息站然後在這裡就是說遲遲都沒有辦法推動那到底出現了一個問題在哪裡那相對的那個次長我還是在延伸到就是說我的將軍營港 這個將軍營港是歸誰管的"},{"start":12031.005,"end":12048.878,"text":"江雲港是漁業署跟市政府台南市政府是不是請漁業署這邊已經拿了4400萬下來了4400萬下來顯然就是說我們也沒有看到就是說一個整體的一個那個進度那這個問題又是出在哪裡"},{"start":12051.26,"end":12074.613,"text":"您提的是休息站還是漁港4400萬 我講的是休息站前面你已經講要來報告了現在我要講的是將軍漁港將軍漁港的一個設立的時候在中央已經補助了4400萬你除了增加就是那個碼頭的那個碼頭的那個浮動浮動的一個那個建置以外"},{"start":12076.174,"end":12099.915,"text":"還有什麼就是說為什麼這一個遲遲都沒有辦法我們沒有辦法看到進度困難在哪裏是我是不是會因為這個不是我負責的業務我是不是事後再跟這委員這邊來做一個報告我們請那這是誰的業務不是不是不是馬頭的一個整建工程這個不是交通部的嗎不然應該是誰的"},{"start":12104.07,"end":12107.635,"text":"我請我們那個夜館的這個主管來回答一下遊艇碼頭的部分已經規劃設計後續的部分我們會在那個遊艇碼頭發展方案裡面多久的一個規劃設計"},{"start":12121.146,"end":12138.079,"text":"這個部分因為是我們補助台南市政府在辦理那個是我們中央補助那個地方政府中央補助地方政府這麼一大筆錢然後我們所有中央的一個單位都不是非常清楚這個怎麼會是這樣子呢"},{"start":12142.116,"end":12164.165,"text":"市長這樣子好不好我想就是說你幫我彙整一下顯然就是前者單位我們也不是非常清楚那是不是就是說針對的就是將軍移港的一個進度還有就是我們休息站的一個進度來那個本席辦公室報告一下我請公路局 航空局麻煩就協同漁業署來跟您報告謝謝市長謝謝主席"},{"start":12167.874,"end":12176.119,"text":"議員發言完畢現在請林月晴委員林月晴委員林月晴委員不在現在請吳麗華委員發言謝謝主席有請交通部次長請您次長"},{"start":12200.647,"end":12225.817,"text":"市長好 在交通部有一個就是針對這些離島地區居民的一個票價補貼那在離島建設條例裡面第15至1條有提到就是這個金額不得低於其票價30%也就是說它是一個法定的一個下限"},{"start":12226.937,"end":12252.999,"text":"那我在這邊就是要替族人請命因為看起來這十年來其實一直沒有做調整那最主要特別是蘭嶼的這些居民他一趟來回到台東其實他大概也要自行負擔大概一千六百多那對於很多老人家來講他們其實往往都是需要到台東市區"},{"start":12254.1,"end":12272.297,"text":"去看病因為可能蘭嶼的醫療資源有一些設備的問題他們要常常希望出去可是這樣的一個交通成本甚至他們到了市區都一定還要坐計程車所以對他們來講要去看病他們就不敢看"},{"start":12273.098,"end":12284.029,"text":"那我們也是覺得很心疼很不捨所以想要請教一下市長當然這是我們航港局的業務不曉得這個部分有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":12285.788,"end":12306.288,"text":"我先請局長跟您做個說明是跟委員報告那為了這個提供我們離島居民這個基本民行那我們在這個居民票價補貼有依照依法發展大陸運輸條例的規定是是是那我們這個是下限我們補助"},{"start":12308.33,"end":12327.021,"text":"這個地方政府補助給這個補貼給居民的這個比例是高於這個下限那蘭嶼的部分是38%綠島的部分是32%那每年的預算額度總數是大概800萬那我們是透過這個行政院核定的六重建設計畫來協助地方政府來進行補貼"},{"start":12328.502,"end":12349.927,"text":"我知道但是我現在要談的就是說對於很多的老人家來講他非常需要往返台東可是這樣的一個交通成本對他們來講他們根本不敢出去我要講的是說我們應該必須要去正視這個問題我們怎麼幫助當地人有這樣的一個特殊需求"},{"start":12353.951,"end":12367.627,"text":"另外就是屬於敬老票的部分那個有另外的優惠的規定那我們會再跟地方政府再進一步了解這個民眾的需求我是希望說要有改善的一個作為啦可以啦"},{"start":12369.529,"end":12384.964,"text":"好 謝謝那另外我們也很關心蘭嶼他們那個地方一直以來都希望這個開園港因為遊客越來越多所以呢也很希望有環境的一個改善那目前我知道的是後船是已經發包中"},{"start":12386.405,"end":12407.644,"text":"那港區的連外道路風雨走廊說預計會116年完工但是在水域的部分我就比較想要知道說因為當初說還要去納入在地居民的意見然後提報計畫那我不太曉得說提報建設計畫的進度如何"},{"start":12410.171,"end":12423.284,"text":"這部分為了這個蘭嶼開源港的一個長遠發展我們有補助台東縣政府900萬元來做一個整體的規劃那今年縣府也已經完成規劃跟這個蘭嶼地方的鄉親來做溝通"},{"start":12426.147,"end":12454.234,"text":"那今年已經召開過兩次的這個座談會那目前跟地方針對漁港區跟客船區來做一個分流的這樣的構想呢地方還是有不同的意見那預計在明年的三月會再召開第三次的會議那我們希望盡快的鄰居公司來對我在這邊就是希望有人關心在地居民很關心我們希望進度可以再更快一點好不好"},{"start":12455.074,"end":12481.007,"text":"好謝謝那再請教一下因為我們在七月份的時候有看到新聞就是交通部呢有特別提到有五條藍色公路要啟航會補助營運費用跟觀光行銷那特別是像有一些基隆到花蓮那我就不太曉得說有沒有跟園民會或當地的旅遊公會去研商有沒有結合部落的旅遊線"},{"start":12484.709,"end":12507.346,"text":"包委員這個部分我們花蓮部分的航線我們一直都有跟先生母這邊做密切的這個聯繫那台東部分我想我們在115年度的規劃也會把它跟他們一起來做那我希望那這個部分兩週內可以給我一個書面報告好不好那最後請教一下次長就是在幾個月前"},{"start":12509.825,"end":12525.841,"text":"蘭嶼跟巴丹島他們其實有做一個世紀首航也就是他們要在明年的6月會乘這個20人最大的拼板舟要滑向巴丹島那這件事情也籌備了好幾年"},{"start":12527.182,"end":12541.034,"text":"也謝謝交通部這邊我們在開協調會的時候也提供很多的協助但是我就是想要請教一下因為我看到我們的這個藍色公路像基隆到日本的石垣島那其實"},{"start":12543.416,"end":12566.074,"text":"在他們來訪的過程中因為他們巴丹省的省長 副省長還有伊特巴亞市的市長他們都有過來有來國會做拜訪也有去高雄市市長也有來去親自的接待也有到蘭嶼那他們就是很希望說明年的這個活動就是有沒有可能搭配這個旅行團"},{"start":12566.835,"end":12589.3,"text":"有沒有搭配專機這樣的一個規劃那未來呢這條航線其實很不錯因為我看這個基隆到日本石垣島大概270公里但是從蘭嶼從高雄到這個伊特巴亞市大概只有100公里左右其實是非常近的那不曉得次長你有什麼樣的想法跟規劃"},{"start":12590.885,"end":12615.432,"text":"包委員 這個構想確實蠻特別我想就麻煩航港局先跟業者討論一下然後也跟您請教在這個活動中怎麼來跟這個縣府這邊搭配 好不好那就再找時間到辦公室我們來討論好 謝謝市長 謝謝局長 謝謝主席吳立華委員發言完畢現在請林德虎委員"},{"start":12616.519,"end":12634.606,"text":"林德福委員 林德福委員不在現在請陳冠廷委員發言謝謝主席 我們請這一個觀光署的署長請陳玉秀署長"},{"start":12645.091,"end":12674.481,"text":"署長好 委員好 署長之前我們有跟你反映有關這個環境部針對旅宿用品公告的一次性用品的限制那我們不斷提到說政策的目標是要讓環保跟觀光共融而不是讓兩者對立那上次我也同樣向環境部來去質詢那建議環境部要跟交通部協調政策上面是不是有可以修正的部分那他們跟我們講 他說這個一次次被寫那麼有經過民調然後民調顯示受訪者支持"},{"start":12675.526,"end":12692.262,"text":"那後來我們仔細把它民調的問題把它調出來這個裡面的問題我不知道這個公關署有沒有一起來審視看看它裡面的問題是說為了地球環境更好請問您是否支持政府推動女書信一次用品減量管制"},{"start":12693.837,"end":12716.627,"text":"把所有的民調問題都先套上一個大帽子為了地球更好你如果不支持你就是不要讓地球更好哪有這種民調的這就跟高鐵的民調每次都是80幾%70幾%大家支持一樣每一個都是誘導性的問題我們做民調是要知道民眾對這些問題的意識的看法而不是把他們導引到我們想要的方向去"},{"start":12717.367,"end":12731.334,"text":"所以當他們用這樣子的問題用這樣子去針對受訪者來提問的時候那當然是支持的民眾就會比較多可是如果你不帶任何的語氣不帶情緒性的民調的結果的話現在社會大眾都覺得說我們這個"},{"start":12733.388,"end":12758.375,"text":"環保署不知道在想什麼把這種一次性備品的這種限制做出來之後旅宿業它的價格不但沒有下降甚至還提升提高它的價格那還要提高它的價格之後服務還去偷金減兩所以我們開始發覺到說同樣品牌的飯店同樣新等的飯店在日本他提供的服務備品"},{"start":12759.983,"end":12788.844,"text":"都是高於我們台灣的啊台灣有的時候還比較貴這是對台灣民眾是不公平的對其他國外民眾來訪問台灣的時候也是不公平的啊這當冤大頭啊把價格不斷的提高如果你們要這個便宜給房客我們接受如果沒有的話你又不給我們提供一次性的備品也不給我們這些其他的服務這是對這個觀光室有什麼幫助當然是沒有幫助的"},{"start":12790.427,"end":12817.908,"text":"其實包含日本也好其他國家他們的一併性備品的政策他們也有檢討比方說他們討論環保的材質而不是讓觀光的品質下降所以我們不是要針對環保署跟他們說你們講環境部你們講的就是錯的我們講的就是對的沒有我們必須要從中取得一個平衡如果你要鼓勵民眾來去不使用一次性的備品可以降價"},{"start":12819.281,"end":12833.635,"text":"降價嘛你用價格來去引導我們這個國民來去走向更環保的道路嗎你不能既不降價提高價格服務品質下降然後要叫全民來去或者是其他的觀光客來去買單"},{"start":12835.89,"end":12851.83,"text":"其實很多飯店的這些經營者也有提到他們的母公司都覺得說我們品牌的形象建立在各種它的優異化的服務結果服務不但沒有提升現在還要依照這個政府的規定"},{"start":12853.424,"end":12880.015,"text":"然後來去導致他們這些住房的旅客 國際的住房的旅客覺得說同樣的品牌在台灣總是差強人意所以這個部分我可不可以請署長能夠跟環境部來去討論一下不要用這種誘導的誘導的民調來去遂行他們的政策目的來去把這個民眾的這個權益來去降低這個部分可不可以請署長來去跟環境部來溝通"},{"start":12882.048,"end":12907.753,"text":"謝謝委員上次確實提到這個問題我們後續也跟環境部持續在溝通希望不要一刀切的這種方式那我覺得如何在顧及旅客的減速跟永續旅遊已經是世界趨勢確實也是但是如何在顧及我們的這個政策那同時因為旅客的滿意度的這個部分希望達到一個協調的部分持續確實有在一起在討論"},{"start":12908.581,"end":12936.109,"text":"那我再去強調消費端跟製造端這個都是要一起來去做檢測但是其實很多大廠比方說這一個快時尚這才是重要的必須要被target的對象他們所生產的用的資源之多那創造的這種環境的污染物之多這才是我們要去針對的要怎麼會去針對抓小放大這實在是很奇怪的一件事情我無法苟同"},{"start":12936.849,"end":12962.835,"text":"那署長我們接下來談一下跟我們嘉義比較有關的 包含我們的梅山纜車的進度 那今年我們的太平四村跟周邊環境準備的計畫 我們有在梅山的纜車有第二次 或者是次長或者是任何交通部可以回應的人 那觀光署說明將會評估興建梅山纜車的可行性想請教目前的梅山纜車的進度跟評估的結果現在是怎麼樣 有沒有更新的進度"},{"start":12963.695,"end":12969.365,"text":"我知道說阿管處有啟動這個太平華所的設計工作那目前各自的進度你們有聽到最新的進展嗎這個是不是請我們警局組的組長來 謝謝"},{"start":12977.839,"end":12999.653,"text":"跟委員報告有關於梅山纜車跟太平雲梯滑索的部分我們的阿管處現在目前還是在委託顧問公司我們在積極對於環境地質敏感的部分還有一些環境影響的衝擊的部分我們還在做積極的評估在需要最新進度的有沒有時程可不可以給我們一個就是一個時間表"},{"start":13000.794,"end":13027.644,"text":"就你們自己內部設置一個時間表好不好就是我們才可以知道推進的進度我們是不是進速評估後之後我們請管理處跟委員報告我的意思是說評估的時間表你們可以進速或者是怎麼樣都可以但是要有時間表我才知道你們有沒有進速好不好那我們跟您報告就給您一個我們辦理的時程那目前那個我們還沒有辦法現場來做一個明確的訂定因為第一線執行的管理處今天不在"},{"start":13028.504,"end":13050.399,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝最後署長我們嘉義縣大埔鄉也有藍色公路那我們是希望說這個觀光署可以全力協助他其實附近還有退府會的嘉義農場也在對外招商所以兩個把它整合在一起好不好跟他們討論一下 謝謝謝謝委員陳冠廷委員發言完畢現在請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":13062.898,"end":13068.021,"text":"好 謝謝主席 馬上邀請我們國防署陳署長請陳玉秀署長署長無礙 這個想先請問一下 署長你有沒有遇過黑熊遇過黑熊 對啊 還沒 還沒看過假設今天真的不小心走在路上遇到黑熊怎麼辦"},{"start":13085.974,"end":13112.195,"text":"慢慢的退但是不能裝死因為上個禮拜我才剛去花蓮結果也遇到問這個問題我想提這個是當然不是單純問你對黑熊的專業知識而是最近我們在華華不管IG還是什麼樣子的一個軟體其實日本是我們國人出國旅遊其實應該是最大宗的一個目的地那最近有關於熊襲擊人的一個新聞好像又被廣泛討論了"},{"start":13113.416,"end":13118.899,"text":"那我不曉得國防署針對這個部分有沒有去對我們可能去旅日的一些遊客給他們一些相關充分的一些知識比如說以北海道來講自駕的人很多嘛或者是黑熊他可能在哪邊的熱區他出沒點是高的"},{"start":13133.266,"end":13146.807,"text":"那如果說我們的遊客到那邊去的時候遇到這種情況的時候要怎麼樣子保護自己或者是避免到一個比較危險的一個場域有沒有相關的一些公開的資訊或是做宣導這樣子"},{"start":13152.625,"end":13176.243,"text":"我請我們國際組副組長來答一下他遇過熊是不是沒有報告委員有關於這個國人海外旅遊的部分第一個部分會有這個外交部領事舉在這個他們的官網上去宣導那至於我們的部分在團科的部分我們也會透過這個旅行社的這個領隊人員去做一些安全上面的一個保護"},{"start":13177.287,"end":13197.723,"text":"對 我覺得我們可以去做一些相關資訊的一些收集你說要國人出國前去看外交部的網站我感覺比較可行性是比較低的啦而是說我們在出國的時候會透過哪一些媒介而在這些媒介給他們一些正確的知識譬如說你剛剛講的旅行社或者是跟我們的航空公司去做合作因為我"},{"start":13198.584,"end":13223.159,"text":"我也知道好像日本好像最常出現 但是到底哪邊比較常出現我也不可能在東京市區遇到嘛 應該是不會啦可能是在北海道或是東北 或是福岡哪邊的地方可能頻率比較高的地方 可能在飛機上面請航空公司幫忙做一些宣導 給他們一些正確的知識我覺得這對於我們國人海外旅遊應該是還蠻重要的好不好 這部分是不是能夠請我們國防署後續去做一些相關的研擬跟宣導"},{"start":13224.6,"end":13227.223,"text":"整理 整備一下再做宣傳 謝謝好 謝謝署長那我們請我們這個葉局長我們航港局葉局長"},{"start":13238.776,"end":13258.297,"text":"委員好局長好這個請問一下我們這個遊艇啊遊艇啊就是好像我都會有時候我的選區在北岸東北角你也知道嘛那有些民眾好像會反映說我們遊艇的停泊的一些問題啦那想確認一下我們現在全台灣的遊艇的登記數量大概有多少"},{"start":13259.291,"end":13279.999,"text":"各位報告 我們目前的國際遊艇登記數是1636艘 1600多艘那我們合法的停泊船位大概多少個位置各位報告 我們的這個遊艇的泊位有兩大類那第一類是專攻遊艇停泊的 這個叫專屬泊區現在有26處 1437席"},{"start":13287.323,"end":13306.482,"text":"1437席 這專屬的 對 這專屬的那另外有79處的漁港有提供非專屬的泊區 那所謂非專屬是同時可以供遊艇或是漁船來共用那這個部分因為有79處所以也提供一定的泊位的供給"},{"start":13307.603,"end":13329.025,"text":"所以目前以這樣的數量來估算大致跟我們現在的登記數是相近不過我們還是有持續在進行博區的一個建設所以115年我們的博區數專屬的部分可以從26處增加到28處那博位數可以增加到1537席"},{"start":13330.806,"end":13351.256,"text":"所以不會出會持續來增加其實在總量上面其實專屬的一個位置其實就不夠了啦而且你也知道假設我們換個角度想全台灣假設有1000萬輛車只有1000萬個停車位一定是有熱區跟廢熱區嘛對不對那一定是會有一個部分可能比較擁擠那有些部分可能需求量沒那麼大雖然說"},{"start":13353.357,"end":13374.953,"text":"位置在足夠的情況下可能都會發生這些問題何況是我們提供的總量還沒有到他們的登記數那想確認一下那有一些他們可能會去漁港的這一些是他們自己本身就覺得那邊比較好還是說是因為我們提供的專屬的位置不夠所以他們才被迫要到漁港裡面去"},{"start":13377.276,"end":13397.574,"text":"最主要還是這個遊艇玩家認為在這個區位上他們認為這個漁港的這個區位在附近的這個搭配遊程的部分是符合他們需求所以專用的部分有你當然數量沒滿嘛那專用的部分是已經都是額滿的狀態了嗎"},{"start":13401.325,"end":13413.854,"text":"根據最新的統計到十月份我們的遊艇博區的專屬的部分平均使用率是78.8所以還沒有到有沒有哪幾個是比較熱門的"},{"start":13416.376,"end":13429.982,"text":"我想或是說比較供不應求的比如說這個委員選區的這個淡水的這個領袖遊艇碼頭沒有那個在孟海那邊對不起抱歉抱歉抱歉原則上是在新北地區這個"},{"start":13433.563,"end":13448.377,"text":"還有像基隆的八豆子這個都是相當熱門的這個薄菌那相對起來假設在漁港啦那跟一些漁業作業的一些可能產生的淨河啦或者是摩擦這部分有沒有反應比較多這樣子"},{"start":13449.377,"end":13467.566,"text":"對 各位你們知道這個是我們在柏區建設的重點 自己本身在野柳啦野柳那邊最主要是漁船嘛 對不對但是實際上我也都有看到一些遊艇在那邊作業啦這本身兩者的作業的一個會不會互相衝突的部分我們這部分都是怎麼在做協調的"},{"start":13469.367,"end":13490.689,"text":"對 這個部分我們在柏區建設部分一定是納入優先的這個考量跟評估那還是以尊重這個漁民漁會的這個漁業的使用為優先 是那在投入建設前我們都有可行性評估還有跟居民的漁民漁會的這個協調作業在取得漁會漁民的同意的"},{"start":13491.689,"end":13503.235,"text":"這個大原則下我們才會進行實質的這個柏區的這個建設還有開放遊艇的一個停靠所以剛剛報告的79處這個非專屬的柏區也都是經過與會與民的同意的"},{"start":13506.997,"end":13535.766,"text":"好那當然了一部分就是我們專屬的場域是不是有些為什麼有些比較不喜歡去有一些會比較熱門那當然他會有些先天的因素那我們怎麼樣來提供一些比較熱門的地方的一些供給量同時間他就會去降低對傳統漁港的一些依賴那我這部分再麻煩我們的局長後續再多做一些 感謝委員的提醒我們現在有一個續期計畫大概就是曹委員提示的這個方向來努力好感謝 謝謝局長 謝謝主席"},{"start":13539.042,"end":13561.194,"text":"要請委員發言完畢 現在請陳素月委員發言謝謝主席 請主席邀請觀光署的署長請陳玉秀署長"},{"start":13568.72,"end":13588.016,"text":"委員好 署長早安我們知道這個郵輪觀光的旅遊模式越來越熱門那我們也一直在一直在推廣這個就是郵輪的一個旅遊那台灣的這個郵輪的觀光我們看到在疫情後也快速的一個復甦根據這個交通部的一個統計資料2025年郵輪進出港的旅客"},{"start":13591.098,"end":13616.673,"text":"預計是可以超過110萬人次創下這個歷史的一個新高那我們也看到就是說我們觀光署的這個郵輪來台旅客統計資料的一個顯示從疫情後到現在台中港沒有任何的郵輪停泊就是至今已經連續7年沒有郵輪靠港所以這邊先請問一下就是說在我們看到亞洲的郵輪市場這麼熱絡為什麼獨露這個台中港"},{"start":13621.56,"end":13624.733,"text":"這個是不是請港務公司董事長來回答好 周董事長"},{"start":13627.189,"end":13654.501,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為台中港是掛銬港所以它並不是母港然後我們也很努力的在疫情之後也特別去幾個航商 郵輪的郵輪公司那所以我們在明年就這個也確定會進來我們的台中港跟委員報告一下郵輪市場它是有一個市場機制"},{"start":13656.277,"end":13674.346,"text":"然後這個也需要有我們很多旅行社地接社然後跟一些景點串接所以還有當然一個很重要就是優惠優惠的措施也是會吸引船公司他希望能夠落點"},{"start":13675.466,"end":13700.994,"text":"所以我們在疫情之後台中港也是當作一個重中之重所以我們除了這個持續那尤其是今年我們好幾個幾個團就特別去拜會那我們也希望明年的部分能夠在規劃2027年的時候我們也把台中港這樣子掛號港當作首選所以我想說這個部分我們會持續努力"},{"start":13701.554,"end":13720.041,"text":"那另外的話就是光屬他們也有一些郵輪的團科的補助方案那現在我們想說新的一年我想這個光屬他們在研議是不是能夠持續那我們這個部分的話優惠的措施也是持續那也特別跟委員報告一下"},{"start":13720.501,"end":13741.318,"text":"是 那就是明年將會有四艘的這個精品級的郵輪來停靠台中港對 那也是去年我們特別拜託航商做一些規劃所以2026年我們很確定的就是有四個航次是 那我們就是台中港這邊都準備好了"},{"start":13741.718,"end":13769.843,"text":"是 我們包括了當然有一些是譬如說六月的部分我們還需要跟台中市府這邊做一些洽結那尤其是這個我們講說這個半日遊 一日遊的部分原則上它是半日遊但是我們希望能夠做一些更好 細緻的規劃那已經有一些採線的部分都已經確定了譬如說自然科學博物館還有我們的很有名的這個高美私地"},{"start":13770.603,"end":13797.161,"text":"然後一些亮點的這個串接那台中也有很多美食所以我們希望能夠從台中港這邊能夠掛銬之後能夠帶動這些旅遊的旅策就是這個郵輪的觀光當然就是我們港澳公司這邊跟觀光署我們交通部的分工要一起合作那我本期也看了一下觀光署的網站有關這個郵輪觀光"},{"start":13798.702,"end":13813.134,"text":"的這個建議的行程就是針對台中港的這樣子一個建議行程有三個行程那我先請問一下署長你對於這樣子的建議行程你覺得有吸引力嗎你覺得這樣滿意嗎"},{"start":13816.909,"end":13833.886,"text":"當然還有優化的機會嘛對不對如果說未來有機會再引導到彰化因為彰化的鹿港老街還是非常有魅力的那到包含像我們講的玻璃馬祖廟這塊我覺得對外國人而言我覺得是都極具魅力那希望未來可以把這塊再加進來"},{"start":13835.407,"end":13851.975,"text":"是 在建議行程裡面第二個行程是有建議到鹿港老街跟玻璃媽祖廟那是事實上在鹿港這個天后宮也是一個極具代表性的一個信仰中心那也是一個很美的一個建築體因為它是一個歷史古蹟"},{"start":13852.875,"end":13878.946,"text":"玻璃廟的話它應該是可以看到我們現在的一個工藝我想這個都是很不錯的一個參觀點我看到明年的四艘郵輪的停靠的時間有半天也有兩天的行程所以就是說在他們靠駁的一個天數有一天兩天或三天的話是不是可以就是說在這個旅遊規劃的行程上"},{"start":13879.466,"end":13891.444,"text":"可以就是說在彰化可以有比較多的一個規劃的一個行程這個我們會再來協調就是找因為我們有觀光圈嘛把觀光圈的找來跟旅營社一起來再跑一下線是"},{"start":13893.24,"end":13921.933,"text":"跟委員報告一下有一個兩天的那個是有一定會去鹿港會去鹿港因為畢竟從台中港到彰化也要有一點一些這個車程的一個時間所以就是說在停靠的時間如果許可的話我們是希望說盡量能夠把它拉到彰化來因為其實彰化也有很多可以看的不管是就是這個古蹟的就是鹿港這邊的或者是海線的一個觀光或者是山線的觀光我想都有"},{"start":13922.293,"end":13938.23,"text":"不錯的一個套裝的一個行程規劃那當然這部分可能就是要請我們觀光署跟地方政府可能要做一個密切的一個討論嘛應該也要聽取一下地方政府的我們在跟地方政府一起合作推出最好的行程"},{"start":13938.69,"end":13956.43,"text":"是好那因為我們知道就是說目前停靠台中港就是以中小型的郵輪為主那這樣子的一個郵輪的旅客應該都是會比較屬於希望能夠深度旅遊的一個旅客為主所以我覺得說在這個部分的話針對客群的"},{"start":13956.89,"end":13979.967,"text":"特性我們可以做一個更細緻的一個行程一個規劃我想這樣子對我們不管是說對於國外旅客對我們台灣的一個印象可能應該會更好對未來回流的狀況可能也會更好有那個效益在好那接下來本席再請教一下有關這個藍色公路的這個部分"},{"start":13981.598,"end":13991.764,"text":"我們看到這個我們推藍色公路應該很多年了那到底有沒有具體的成效我不曉得是不是請署長 這個請葉局長"},{"start":13998.599,"end":14015.424,"text":"跟委員報告 那我們國內的這個目前海運的固定航線總共有25條 本島離島是12條 島基間是13條 那每年大概有服務500萬人次的這樣的服務 那委員剛剛提醒就是說我們"},{"start":14016.804,"end":14036.54,"text":"如何再進一步提升這個藍色公路的功能還有它觀光的效益那這邊跟委員報告我們在過去幾年有鼓勵業者來新闢新的藍色公路那這邊包括澎湖的南方四島還有布袋東極台北馬祖以及成功綠島這四條是新闢的航線"},{"start":14039.082,"end":14054.851,"text":"那另外一部分就是我們今年試辦了這個三條新的航線的叫海洋觀光嘉年華的這樣的活動那這邊包括基隆花蓮還有布袋澎湖金門"},{"start":14055.831,"end":14077.18,"text":"那我們希望透過這樣的一個客源的培養來持續提升這個藍色公路觀光的一個效益那另外我們也正在這個承包一個這個比較長中期的一個計畫就是要來建構一艘全國觀光的備援船舶那這個部分現在已經承包計畫當中"},{"start":14078.519,"end":14106.706,"text":"是因為我們看到就是如果說我們這個藍色公路是以國內旅客為主那一般我們國內的旅客應該就是搭船就是以運輸就是說交通為主要的一個目的所以要怎樣推動這個海洋的一個觀光我想這個部分就是可能要再多費一些心思是我們可能要結合岸上的遊程甚至在船上的這個搭乘的過程也要有一些有創意的做法"},{"start":14108.068,"end":14123.249,"text":"感謝委員 謝謝陳樹業委員歡迎完畢現在請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在現在請游皓委員游皓委員游皓委員不在"},{"start":14124.859,"end":14150.513,"text":"做一下說明登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢做一下決定報告及詢討完畢委員吳佩奕 林德福 林倩琦 游浩 王美惠 徐欣穎所提書面諮詢列入紀錄並刊登公報委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部及相關機關盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":14153.398,"end":14162.021,"text":"針對本次會議討論事項做以下決議討論事項一至三個案均定期繼續審查本次會議結束 散會"}]}},{"id":"17127","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17127","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e6753254e18e0cc648749d5d4e85ec53ed5e67b2ed516237597de9a073955b4a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「海關進口稅則」5案：\n本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員黃健豪等22人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員林思銘等16人分別擬具「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」等5案。【後1案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-17T08:37:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-17T11:58:00+08:00","duration":12031,"影片長度":"03:20:31","委員發言時間":"08:37:29 - 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歡迎"},{"start":1632.401,"end":1660.476,"text":"我們本次會議安排審查本院委員徐富奎等17人委員黃建豪等22人委員徐富奎等16人委員陳金輝等16人委員林思敏等16人分別擬據海關進口稅責部分稅責修正草案等5案將先請委員說明提案要旨後再請財政部莊部長回應委員提案內容我們先請徐富奎委員說明提案要旨"},{"start":1663.307,"end":1665.578,"text":"这个说明三分钟麻烦谢谢"},{"start":1671.082,"end":1691.447,"text":"謝謝主席我想近年來國內對於精釀啤酒跟相關的釀造產業逐步發展成為結合農業生產製造餐飲跟觀光的重要的一個產業但是因為受限於近年中國大陸大量傾銷及國內釀造原料成本偏高的因素本土啤酒業者的競爭趨於劣勢影響整個產業的動能"},{"start":1695.808,"end":1709.564,"text":"那我們近期包含相關的單位也確認了中國啤酒大量傾銷的一個事實也祭出了這個反傾銷稅的一個反制作為那下一步我們就是針對我們如何讓我們的本土啤酒更有一個產品的一個競爭力"},{"start":1710.765,"end":1727.017,"text":"那因為啤酒花跟麥芽是做一個啤酒釀造不可或缺的關鍵營料但因為過去試用較高的一個進口稅率造成國內相關產業的一個需求跟國際的趨勢發展有顯著的一個落差而我們台灣啤酒的主要競爭對手"},{"start":1728.278,"end":1743.766,"text":"大多數對於這個啤酒花跟麥芽採取低關稅甚至是一個免稅的一個政策目標就是在於降低釀造的一個成本促進本國產業啤酒產業的一個升級提升國際的一個競爭力那相較之下"},{"start":1744.266,"end":1768.346,"text":"我國對於啤酒花跟麥芽的這個稅制我想明顯高於其他的一個啤酒生產國家導致中小型的一個釀酒業者承擔過高的一個成本不利於這個多元品牌跟在地的一個啤酒的一個特色發展我想農糧署也說得很明白我們國內目前並沒有大規模經濟的一個栽培大麥跟啤酒花"},{"start":1768.826,"end":1793.791,"text":"那相關的這個釀造的一個原料都必須仰賴一個進口那所以對於國內並不會有一個比較明顯的一個衝擊那我想透過這個合理的調降一個稅率增加我們業者的一個成本甚至提升這個相關的一個技術這是一個很會擴大一個就業的一個很好的一個機會甚至可以帶動我們農業餐飲跟觀光相關的產業鏈一個發展所以我想本席特別針對"},{"start":1795.031,"end":1814.897,"text":"提案降低我們的啤酒花跟麥芽稅率降低關稅到零我想這是要一個建立一個合理跟一個前瞻的一個產業的一個環境除了可以降低業者的一個負擔我想最重要就是增加我們一個國內啤酒的一個競爭力我想讓全世界都喝得到看得到台灣啤酒是我們的一個目標好謝謝好謝謝許富奎委員接下來請黃建豪委員"},{"start":1832.83,"end":1846.448,"text":"好 今天謝謝我們林思明召委的排案再來我們莊部長 各位官員大家早安今天本期提到這個海關進口碎石的草案主要是因為我想過去財政部跟經濟部已經認定說所謂中國製造啤酒在台灣的市場有這個傾銷的行為"},{"start":1847.85,"end":1868.266,"text":"也對我們國內的釀酒業跟所謂的啤酒的商業行為造成失信的損害所以本期提案是針對啤酒釀造原物料的進口關稅結構來回應這個國內釀酒業長期面臨的不公平競爭的問題因為我想現行制度之下我們的進口啤酒關稅是零不管它從哪裡來它的關稅是零"},{"start":1868.786,"end":1891.328,"text":"但是如果本土的釀酒業者他面對著市場競爭他要取得關鍵原物料是麥芽跟啤酒花他仍然需要負擔7.5%的進口關稅那所以導致國內的業者在生產成本上面處於不利的地位所以這對他們在國際競爭上面也有一定程度的影響形成制度性的不對等競爭也不利產業的健全發展也不利其他的更多的大廠"},{"start":1892.129,"end":1907.917,"text":"來台灣設廠我想包含其他國際大廠也都希望能夠來利用台灣的這個關鍵地位來台灣設廠但是因為卡在這個原物料進口關稅的問題所以到目前為止真正的國際大廠來台灣設廠的比例並不高所以我們希望能夠從結構上從關稅政策上來調整我們的問題"},{"start":1911.198,"end":1935.003,"text":"就產業結構而言台灣目前也沒有麥芽跟啤酒花的農業主流生產的問題所以相關原物料幾乎完全仰賴進口現行關稅也沒有要發揮說保護本土農業的作用跟功能反而成為限制了我們產業製造業的成本的負擔所以依照目前的進口使用情形的觀察"},{"start":1935.683,"end":1960.947,"text":"大約97%的麥芽跟啤酒花都是直接用於啤酒的釀造所以調降關稅我想並不會造成其他產業的影響也不會造成排擠所以我們希望說能夠把相關修法希望大院以及希望我們財政部各部會還有我們所有委員能夠支持來提供我們台灣的啤酒釀酒業更好的進程環境也能夠讓台灣的啤酒製造業能夠有機會進軍國際打國際盃以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":1965.617,"end":1989.446,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員本席的提案我也說明一下有限於進口啤酒在台灣市場的快速成長其中以價格相對低廉的中國啤酒為主要來源根據財政部的統計過去十年間中國製啤酒市場它的市占率已成長至原本的4倍"},{"start":1990.386,"end":2007.673,"text":"今年第一季中國製的啤酒市場佔有率已經高達36%佔進口啤酒總量超過7成相對的我國本土啤酒的產量持續下滑2023年本土啤酒市佔率甚至跌破5成"},{"start":2008.713,"end":2037.382,"text":"面对中国制啤酒的强势竞争本土酿酒业者纷纷缩减生产计划包括部分本土酒厂停止生产线的运作以及外商啤酒品牌来台设厂因为销售预期下修而出现撤销或缩减扩展与投资计划等现象为了减轻国内啤酒生产的成本促进我国酿酒产业的永续发展"},{"start":2038.442,"end":2059.361,"text":"政府因積極支持本土釀造產業所以我們拟據了海關進口稅責不分稅責修正草案我們期望來扭轉本土產品的市占率持續下滑的一個困境敬請我們財政部還有農業部以及各位委員來支持以上的說明"},{"start":2064.37,"end":2072.953,"text":"陳金輝委員陳金輝委員陳金輝委員不在好那現在請財政部莊部長回應委員提案的內容主席各位委員先進大家好今日貴委員會審查大院許委員富奎等17人黃委員建豪等22人許委員富奎"},{"start":2091.857,"end":2119.685,"text":"等16人以及陳委員金輝等16人以及林委員施銘等16人的分別擬據海關進口稅責部分稅責修正草案那麼所設調降啤酒關鍵原物料麥芽及啤酒花關稅那麼簡簡要說明如下首先麥芽及啤酒花關稅稅率與進口情形來做說明目前麥芽他的關稅稅率皆為7.5%"},{"start":2122.046,"end":2144.851,"text":"那么近4年也就是110年到113年每年平均的进口值是新台币8亿9456万进口量是41958万公顿关税的收入是6709万元啤酒花那么它未经研磨以及已研磨的这两项那么关税税率分别是15%及7.5%"},{"start":2148.226,"end":2152.889,"text":"近四年每年平均的進口值是5236萬元進口量是127萬公噸關稅收入是393萬元那麼對於國內產業的影響"},{"start":2162.779,"end":2185.471,"text":"我國啤酒主要的釀造業者與其和他的採購契約商進口麥芽及啤酒花都用於啤酒釀造者佔我國總進口量的比例分別是97%跟86%如果免除進口關稅可降低國產啤酒生產成本提高它的競爭力以及市場的佔有率"},{"start":2185.991,"end":2203.748,"text":"应该有助于其和进口啤酒业者竞争那么根据农业部的农粮署表示因为大麦以及啤酒花国内并没有经济规模的栽培那么调降麦芽及啤酒花的关税税率我们农粮署它是没有意见的"},{"start":2204.312,"end":2221.519,"text":"那本部的國庫署就九類主管機關的立場也完成了稅市支出的評估調降麥芽以及啤酒花關稅將會產生關稅稅收損失大概是7435萬元但是降稅後可以提升國產啤酒市場的競爭力"},{"start":2223.54,"end":2242.664,"text":"促使啤酒的需求增长那么预估增加1亿6947万元的租税收入那这个收入呢包括了有烟酒税 营业税及盈利事业所得税那么另外扣除上开关税收入税收的损失以后最终税收的净效益是增加9539万元"},{"start":2245.485,"end":2270.397,"text":"麥芽以及啤酒花的貨品是不是要調降關稅的稅率本部是國內酒類主管機關從產業的影響跟稅收損失面向分析如上那麼我們尊重貴委員會的審議結果以上說明敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝莊部長那農業部我們就請大家參閱各位參閱我們的農業部的書面的一個報告還有嗎"},{"start":2274.229,"end":2294.126,"text":"經濟部的經濟部有經濟部沒有書面資料經濟部沒有那我們現在開始詢答先做一下宣告每位初期委員發言時間八分鐘必要時得延長兩分鐘每位列席委員發言時間五分鐘"},{"start":2296.69,"end":2311.733,"text":"今日上午10時截止發言登記本次會議委員若有相關修正動議請進送主席台必便議事人員整理現在我們依登記順序請登記第一位的林德福委員質詢"},{"start":2326.57,"end":2327.892,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請莊部長好 請莊部長委員長部長早"},{"start":2336.499,"end":2356.787,"text":"我想今年整個稅收短徵土徵稅收減少是中央政策的責任影響相較在疫情時代經濟衰退的餘力現在中央政府似乎已經要把責任推給地方政府我請問部長"},{"start":2358.248,"end":2386.982,"text":"地方統籌稅款會不會短波到底短波多少是有一定比例公式的依據還是單靠中央政府高興就給多少那如果是比例為何出現本席對疫情時代稅收短徵影響地方統籌稅款狀況與目前整個財政部所表示的今年短徵對地方統籌稅款影響的差距"},{"start":2388.157,"end":2414.164,"text":"那個部長你有什麼看法跟委員報告第一個中央統籌分配稅款是用公式來計算的沒有中央高興撥多少就撥多少也就是說在財化法裡面對於什麼樣多少比例比如所得稅是10%114年是10%貨物稅以及營業稅多少%數是到中央統籌分配稅款進入中央統籌分配稅款在依照公式分配給各地方政府這個在"},{"start":2415.534,"end":2441.564,"text":"去年底的時候就會通知各地方政府我們的分配預估數按照預算數來做分配那到時增數的時候到年度執行當中的時候我們會按時增數的情形來做分配那如果這一年的稅收也就是說所得稅 貨物稅各種稅口超過原來的預算數的話那所得分配稅款中央統籌分配稅款會比原來通知數為高的話我們會在"},{"start":2444.125,"end":2465.403,"text":"第13次再做撥付但是如果時增數跟預算數之間有差距的話那也會事先通知地方政府叫他們議委 川部長我請教賴總統不是說包括你們包括那個主計總署說今年經濟成長率百分之七點幾是十幾年來最高的那為什麼會這種狀況呢"},{"start":2468.302,"end":2480.679,"text":"中委員報告今年的稅收其實是比去年的實徵數來說是來得高的為什麼因為我們今年的預算數就是今年的預算數比去年的實徵數我們編列高出了947億"},{"start":2485.205,"end":2494.211,"text":"那所以目前的實增數我們來看中央的實增數到11月為底比去年從同期1到11月是增加實增數增加539億但是跟預算數之間會有一個差距所以我們預估今年"},{"start":2501.236,"end":2520.772,"text":"今年的實徵數跟預算數之間我們認為只會差到2%到1%之間這已經相當準但是因為這個會不會影響到中央統籌分配稅款的數額這個部分要等到12月底以後精算才知道但是我們必須要事先通知地方政府告訴他們有這個情形莊部長"},{"start":2523.234,"end":2549.181,"text":"你像包括房市政策就好了因為中央銀行做一些管制你要把責任推給地方其實因為整個包括土增稅它的減我看到媒體報導減了500多億你要把它推給地方中央的政策要把這些問題推給地方你說這樣公平嗎"},{"start":2550.681,"end":2556.564,"text":"我們沒有所謂的中央的政策推給地方我想房地產的房地產必須是一個在一個健康有序的一個情形來發展但房市過量大家也房市過熱大家也擔憂房價高漲第二個部分對於金融的部分我們必須要維持金融的穩定所以這個部分相關的房市政策的一些措施我想這個部分都有它的"},{"start":2578.556,"end":2586.142,"text":"意義 政策目的在裡面土征稅是因為一個交易量減少或者是大額案件還有一個就是大額案件的交易減少因為土征稅跟它持有時間的長短是有關係的你這裡管制那裡管制包括那些青年購屋貸款原來都給的結果你又把它縮造成很多年輕人他們跳腳他認為說當初的政策跟現在所做的都有落差"},{"start":2608.038,"end":2634.034,"text":"其實這是不應該的對不對沒有說啊 新金安貸款其實後來在那個金管會也同意銀行法的部分可以做一些排除很多那些地方的建商什麼他們都說當初有貸結果時間到了說一說他們就那些年輕人真的不知道要如何是好退也不是 不退也不是其實政府的政策應該要很"},{"start":2634.955,"end":2652.09,"text":"就是你要出來要很縝密不是說想了就做 想了就做部長我再請教你上個禮拜媒體報導財政部表示距離年度預算目標還有2206億元的差距"},{"start":2653.251,"end":2671.03,"text":"那預估今年將終結連四年的稅收潮增而短徵規模達300億至500億元那我請問部長經濟成長似乎就是超乎預期啊那為什麼反而呈現這個稅收的短徵你認為這會不會是國內財政轉壞的一個徵兆會不會"},{"start":2675.594,"end":2678.776,"text":"我想跟委員報告不是國內財政轉換第一個我剛剛跟委員報告就是說我們114年的預算數比113年的實徵數增加了947億所以預算數我們的編列是達到中央的部分是2兆7845億元到目前為止的徵收的實徵數是2兆6350億元而到11月為止是比去年的實徵數還高出了539億"},{"start":2702.489,"end":2731.131,"text":"那是因为预算数跟时增数之间的一个差距而差距只在1%到2%之间这个是一个时增数跟预算数之间的差距并不是财政的不好那至于今年的7.37%的经济成长率有一些税收会是在明年来做呈现的譬如说所得税会在明年呈现那你认为明年会好吗明年的税收我们已经编制出来还在大院在总预算审核的时候来做审议"},{"start":2732.304,"end":2754.993,"text":"那個部長因為經濟成長只是表象也就是這個百業中少數行業一枝獨秀其他行業不但是跟不上水準甚至於還逐漸的惡化那部長如果明年還是和今年一樣甚至於更糟那我請問115年稅收短徵的規模是不是還有擴大的疑慮會不會"},{"start":2757.007,"end":2764.353,"text":"跟委員報告我們知道在我們的出口值今年是創新高應該會突破6000億的美元那也帶動了經濟的成長那當然也是一個私通訊跟電子設備跟零組件他們的出口非常猖獗傳統產業當然沒有同步的這樣的成長我想政府也提出了相關的"},{"start":2779.344,"end":2792.253,"text":"支持的措施在那個相關的任性的特別預算裡面都有支援我們要協助這個中小企業微型企業能夠升級跟轉型那政府都經濟部也都持續在做我想這個部分跟委員做那我就請問部長媒體報導因為稅收短徵財政部發函給地方政府五六月普通統籌稅分配款實際撥付數以分配數差額沒有辦法撥補"},{"start":2806.963,"end":2835.783,"text":"也就是說有將近150億元的普通統籌款短波數暫時沒有辦法補足恐怕衝擊16縣市的這個整個財政的能力那部長因為民國109年和11年在新冠疫情的爆發當時經濟成長受衝擊也出現稅收短徵那地方統籌整個分配款"},{"start":2838.41,"end":2860.945,"text":"也有短徵的這種疑慮那我請問部長對於照疫情發生時的稅收短徵以及當時地方統籌款短撥的情況你認為這次短徵規模是不是比疫情的時候還要更嚴重呢"},{"start":2862.037,"end":2871.342,"text":"跟委員報告109年的時候中央稅收的達成率是95.6%今年一定超過這個執行率會達到98%到99%之間所以說你認為沒有問題會達到99%到98%之間如果要是沒有比疫情時更嚴重那請問為什麼今年地方統籌分配款短波會大於疫情時間的短波數呢"},{"start":2890.614,"end":2904.051,"text":"這個是因為比例問題是不是會大於短波數我覺得最後要再做一個精算的時候才確定而且如果我們的稅收的時增數高於預算數的話我們也在第13期都會撥給地方政府"},{"start":2904.79,"end":2925.192,"text":"因為照理講地方跟中央是要連成一體但是講實在話不要用黨派來做要不要給你中央掌權又要掌權我想這樣子老百姓眼光是很雪亮看在眼裡他們不會接受"},{"start":2926.541,"end":2949.736,"text":"中央統籌分配稅款都用公式分配跟黨派無關都用公式分配我希望是如此法律就是這樣規定的在新冠疫情當時影響全台經濟衝擊的稅收的同時也影響地方政府可拿到的中央統籌分配款額度但是隔年109年度稅收統計完成總稅收"},{"start":2950.957,"end":2964.187,"text":"的時增金額確實減少但反映在普通統籌分配款上實際短少僅有62億那我請問部長對於預估今年稅收短徵的狀況你認為明年114年這個稅收短徵規模是不是已經"},{"start":2974.008,"end":2999.936,"text":"已经没有指望可以出现力亡狂澜这个小短征规模的机会 有没有当然我们因为剩最后一个月12月了那我们应该看这个税务也就委员一直关心所谓中央统筹分配税款那中央统筹分配税款是从所得税还有货物税 营业税各个税务来看的所以这个部分"},{"start":3001.516,"end":3026.153,"text":"總數跟各稅務之間是有差距的所以我才跟委員報告說中央統籌分配稅款最後分配給地方政府的部分跟原來通知分配稅款之間的差距要最後才精算才知道而不是用一個總數來算那譬如說證交稅到目前為止比去年少了30億幣去年同期少30億但證交稅沒有到進入中央統籌分配稅款所以他的少收也不會影響到中央統籌分配稅款"},{"start":3026.773,"end":3048.259,"text":"這部分要等到12月底以後再來大家計算更精確但是在事前我們要先通知地方政府今年的一個狀況讓他可以預為因應這是跟委員報告第二個部分報告都用公式計算跟黨派是無關我希望部長公平公正客觀就好從來都是我們依法執政是 謝謝"},{"start":3049.175,"end":3063.146,"text":"好 謝謝林德輔委員 謝謝部長好 我們各位委員先確定議事錄請問各位委員對於議事錄有異議沒有好 議事錄確定現在請吳秉瑞委員質詢主席麻煩請財政部莊部長請莊部長委員好"},{"start":3079.025,"end":3103.519,"text":"總部長本年度114年度截至目前為止11月底的稅收狀況是什麼樣子跟委員報告截至11月底的中央中央的稅收達成率是達成預算的達成率是94.6%那我們的實徵數到11月為止比去年同期的實徵數事實上是增加了539億"},{"start":3105.782,"end":3126.085,"text":"那分配数是94.2嘛时增数是94.6嘛所以11月底的时候时增数还超过分配数的比例嘛时增对对对所以应该如果12月没有什么意外的话应该也是会达到整个100%的这个税收的比例啊"},{"start":3127.024,"end":3145.473,"text":"目前來說我們的估計是用過去三年的12月份它的時增數的一個平均數抓一個高跟低之間但事實上要超過會不會超過預算數我們覺得是有挑戰的所以我們認為目前來說大概達成率大概到98%到99%之間妳這個算法怎麼會對呢11月底的分配數是94.2"},{"start":3151.196,"end":3160.124,"text":"就代表原來的分配數是12月是要收5.8%嘛那你的時增數已經94.6也就是說你12月的時候是要收到5.2%所以你到11月底還超標結果你跟我講12月底你認為只會到98 99那你意思說你12月會短收很多囉"},{"start":3174.532,"end":3197.803,"text":"我们的分配数达成率是以分配数达成率是98.398.3不是啦我刚刚问你到11月底11月底的分配数是94.2对不对原报告中央政府的部分达成的分配预算数的比例是98.3%在全年的预算数达成是94.6"},{"start":3202.208,"end":3213.376,"text":"你那講的是實質的收到的數目我跟你說你到11月尾底分配數是94.2%94.2%這個是數字是你們提供的嘛分配數但是你們的達成數是94.6%也就是說你們超過了0.4%表現很好啊"},{"start":3223.891,"end":3238.314,"text":"委員我不知道我們提供的是根據這邊的統計達到分配預算數的比就分配是到11月的分配數是98.3但全年度達成率是94.6對啊就11月底你們的達成數是94.6我沒有說錯問題是你們的分配數是94.2那分配數94.2達成94.6"},{"start":3254.008,"end":3255.87,"text":"還是說你們是分配數的94.6那個署長你幫幫部長回答一下"},{"start":3264.739,"end":3290.84,"text":"報告委員是這樣我們先講時增數就是我們先講我們原來分配到11月底的預算數到全年的比例原來該拿到的是98.9%但我們現在時增數佔整個累計我們的預算數分配比例只有到94.2%我只是跟你先問11月底對 我現在都是講11月底你給我們的數字是到11月底分配數是94.2%時增數是94.6%"},{"start":3295.293,"end":3322.043,"text":"那是中央數跟全國數剛才委員您講的那個94.2是全國數94.6是中央數不是指那個預算數佔整個累積預算數的點那再問一個問題就是說因為今年你們一個特殊的政策就是因為台灣跟美國在貿易談判所以你們那個佔繳稅款的部分你可以分期嗎還是那個印繳的稅款可以分期"},{"start":3323.286,"end":3349.56,"text":"那個到底是會影響多少你有沒有估過目前我們現在統計的數字大概600因為我們統計有點落後現在是616億左右包括中央稅跟地方稅那個如果加進來是不是今年一樣114年度的總稅收也是會到達百分之百但是它會陸續會回收因為它是分期繳納我知道啦對 它會陸續回收我們對話其實在同一個平台上我們不要這樣我的意思是說今年"},{"start":3350.768,"end":3378.047,"text":"如果把這個暫時讓人家先不用繳的這一部分將來可以回收部分也算進來今年的實收數事實上也是會到達百分之百嘛是不是好謝謝來我們再請部長繼續請部長部長那今年因為到現在12月中了剩下兩個禮拜這個會期法定會期結束到現在總預算還沒有付尾對不對是的"},{"start":3379.778,"end":3403.058,"text":"那總預算還沒有付也就是沒有審查那沒有審查會造成什麼影響到目前沒有審查會讓我們的在施政上會有一些摯愛為什麼因為明年度的稅出預算都會受到限制那第一個不能超過114年的實際執行數那有一些新興計畫也沒有辦法執行"},{"start":3404.414,"end":3415.689,"text":"好 那我現在問一個問題剛剛前一個委員關心那個統籌分配稅款統籌分配稅款雖然是照公司分配但是是不是也納入我們收入的全部"},{"start":3418.219,"end":3440.286,"text":"統籌分配稅款在中央政府部分因為我們在編列中央政府稅客收入的時候就把中央統籌分配稅款就切出去了並沒有在我們的稅客收入裡面所以不用進入本院審查就沒有在因為就按照那個財化法裡面的稅收的比例去把它劃到地方的稅客收入裡面去那現在我已經我自己也亂掉了你財化法現在這麼多的版本有"},{"start":3442.116,"end":3461.208,"text":"之前的版本修正了第一版修正了第二版現在第三版行政院說他現在不附屬對不對所以不附屬照憲法的規定暫時還沒有生效力所以就是如以前一版而言統籌分配稅款現在你估計可以分給地方政府的金額有多少明年估計數這當然是估計數了"},{"start":3470.8,"end":3494.999,"text":"以8840億8840億所以如果就是說我們這邊預算不省這8840億也是會撥下去的對 它就進入地方的稅客收入裡面去但是因為你那個最新就是在生效前最後一個版本它對於統籌分配稅款的來源它有一些來源別的更改譬如說你的營業稅的部分是多少比例分給地方跟你以前比起來差別多少"},{"start":3496.134,"end":3515.513,"text":"它是扣掉这个基增成本以及统一发票奖金以后全部都给地方一页税那以前是给多少以前是40%那现在等于他们会多拿50%几对因为你的基增跟这个统一发票的成本也没有多少对那个大概会占几%大概1.5%"},{"start":3517.621,"end":3541.058,"text":"那所以就是他們會拿到等於會拿到58.5%地方政府會多拿到58.5%的這個營業稅那這一部分的營業稅的總金額大概會佔多少跟委員報告我們以114年度中央政府我們的營業稅的編列的稅率是3830億但是我們在115年根據新的財化法的話我們只有296億的營業稅的稅可收入"},{"start":3543.872,"end":3569.674,"text":"地方政府會等於是會你估計會增加多少他在這個部分的金額比去年比今年115年比114年就增加了3534億好那現在假設我們預算沒有審查因為我看起來是不會審的那沒有審查這3000這增加了3000多億跟連以前那3000多億總共8000多億一樣是撥給地方政府就是統籌分配稅款的這部分"},{"start":3571.412,"end":3583.575,"text":"中央统筹分配税款在今年115年明年是达到了8874亿那这个部分已经进入地方政府的税客收入里面去划规去了"},{"start":3584.48,"end":3606.307,"text":"對但是由中央徵收只是我們徵收完之後是要撥給地方政府這個沒有經過我們的這個年度中央的總預算沒有在裡面那如果這樣少了這些的話中央的總預算你們估計會少多少就稅客收入的部分營業稅這50幾%也撥給地方之後光這一部分中央的稅會少多少3038億也就是說114年度中央的稅收"},{"start":3613.171,"end":3626.448,"text":"可以算中央的本來是兩兆七千多億光課稅的部分那少了這三千多億中央就馬上少了兩兆四千多億就成為兩兆四千八百零七億所以你今年的這個預算收入"},{"start":3627.839,"end":3656.116,"text":"雖然沒有審查但送到本院來的已經照這樣子編列了是不是目前的總預算是這樣編列的那所以你今年明年度的這個稅科收入這個編列的總數跟今年度是差多少就是差3038億所以你是估計明年都沒有成長跟今年比起來明年都沒有成長沒有啊你看中央統籌分配稅款不是啦我是說這3000多億這部分就已經先劃掉不要再算的話剩下的部分中央的稅收有沒有增加"},{"start":3656.789,"end":3672.886,"text":"是有增加的增加在哪一部分加在稅目裡面包含所得稅是有增加7%那增加的還有就是遺證稅我們略微編有增加那其他像這個遺證稅還有都減少的對"},{"start":3678.654,"end":3699.682,"text":"只有所得稅有增加7%所以也就是說今年度114年度的中央的稅客收入跟明年度現在送到立法院來還沒有審查的這個115年度的會計年度的這個中央稅客收入差距是多少差短少了多少錢"},{"start":3701.025,"end":3718.701,"text":"10增數跟預估數因為你115年就還沒有增你怎麼會知道10增數那就差到了差不多也是3000多億超過3000億3000多億問題是中央哪一部分的支出可以可以受升不然這3000多億是不是都要舉債對所以我們115年度總預算編列的舉債數2992億你的稅出又縮減了哪一些部分"},{"start":3727.94,"end":3735.979,"text":"稅出的部分當然是由主計總處這邊來做指引不知道 但他今天不在所以我請你一併回答你知道嗎主要是說減少了哪一些部分"},{"start":3736.867,"end":3758.253,"text":"中央的部分的施政其實有很多都是有重要那我們其實以財政部來說也是有縮減我們的稅出的部分因為有一些計畫完成我們就沒有再做編排所以照理來講錢多這麼多你應該事權要分配啊那地方政府多做哪一些事中央政府哪一些事少做所以我們的錢可以減少這部分是不是應該爬梳離親啊當然是 是的"},{"start":3758.813,"end":3784.451,"text":"所以你們現在最近工作很多雖然沒有省預算這部分的工作好像省起來了但是其他要整理的事情很多我跟你說地方政府的尤其是地方議會的議員跟我反映他們現在在地方他們認為他們預算都省假的因為到底他們會拿到多少錢什麼東西他們都不清楚所以好像在開玩笑一樣有的甚至還說那我就只要是先編然後不能來的我就先舉借"},{"start":3786.526,"end":3811.496,"text":"等等弄成一團糟從上到下全部都一團糟這也就是說在財化法修正的時候完全沒有討論市權而只是討論到錢要怎麼樣劃出去但市權沒有並同討論所以造成這樣的一個現象好 謝謝你工作很多加油謝謝不要說沒有預算了那就不用做事光領薪水這個不行的這個跟國際民生都有關係好 謝謝吳秉瑞委員接下來請賴氏寶委員質詢"},{"start":3826.876,"end":3848.879,"text":"謝謝主席 一起各位先進有請財政部的莊部長好 請莊部長是 委員好部長 行政院長卓榮泰在開會說開記者會不附屬 你就在旁邊這個不附屬是不是你在旁邊慫恿他不附屬"},{"start":3850.63,"end":3871.335,"text":"跟委員報告在11月14號三讀通過的這個財化法的再修正案我們必須要記者會因為這樣的記者會通過了以後會要中央舉債2646億本來就舉債2000多了2000多就超過債限的部分這是我們財政部的立場一定要跟長官要說明我跟你講你不必這個你也沒有這個權利你也不敢跟他說不啦這個東西"},{"start":3877.918,"end":3892.847,"text":"中華民國總統用簡賴清德總統說行政院卓院長表明本次修正侵害行政權違憲重大且明顯"},{"start":3894.761,"end":3915.815,"text":"怎麼會賴清德見大法官呢卓榮泰怎麼見大法官呢違不違憲是憲法法庭來定的不是卓榮泰定的也不是你莊卓宇定的這個11141114通過立法院的版本你們行政院後來的版本為什麼1114不拿來討論呢清楚來看所以現在只能夠我想你沒辦法回答我不要你回答我只是要告訴你"},{"start":3925.081,"end":3950.697,"text":"告訴全國的我們的這個難民了立法院三讀通過的法案行政院長沒有權力不附屬他附屬是義務他們喜歡舉三十四年前郝柏村不附屬 那是不附屬人事案李登輝前總統要提名蔣仲林為一級上將郝柏村認為資歷不夠 NO"},{"start":3953.098,"end":3967.638,"text":"只有這樣子中華民國憲法在台灣實施幾十年只有那麼一次針對人事 針對預算陳水扁當總統八年也是少數執政一個案子都沒有提過這個不復甦"},{"start":3969.881,"end":3998.51,"text":"沒有 所以行政院長是他的義務不是權力憲法第3條講得非常清楚他可以提復議案復印不過他就要接受所以卓榮泰明明就是迴憲亂政違憲的做法不要忘了立法院通過的法律不管你喜不喜歡你就要去實施不管你喜不喜歡所以你過程當中要跟立委要討論"},{"start":4000.27,"end":4007.772,"text":"你不能夠無法無天目前的做法就是無法無天選擇性的你說什麼取債多少取債多少就簡單啦你中央少做一點事情就可以了給地方做啊有什麼問題呢根本一點問題也沒有所以取債多少是你隨便講講隨便講講我就問你這不是隨便講講我跟你講那你告訴我你回答我"},{"start":4022.917,"end":4026.699,"text":"是否違憲你沒有資格講違憲的問題啦憲法大法庭來講違憲哪有資格講總統派人沒有資格講賴清德人沒有資格講更何況你莊崔瑩哪裡有資格講違不違憲對不對不要把自己以為大頭病啊自己多大啊部長多大沒有很大喔"},{"start":4041.775,"end":4061.062,"text":"你們不要無法無天 目前就是無法無天到底的獨裁 到底獨裁國家選擇性 喔 通過了 我高興了 接受不高興了 不要 不附屬哪裡有這樣的民主國家全世界 你看哪一個民主國家 你看川普多麼的強勢啊 國會"},{"start":4063.922,"end":4087.582,"text":"不給預算通過整個就停擺啊整個政府機關就停擺啊我們的預算法裡面還客氣讓你舊的錢可以用如果我們跟美國一樣停擺啊這個就是民主國家啊人家川普不喜歡要這個預算嗎對不對 這民主國家就是依法行政 依法行政 依法行政我們通過了法律"},{"start":4088.939,"end":4108.365,"text":"你再這麼不喜歡你就是要做做了有什麼後果政治人物負責任以後選民不要選他以後負政治責任了這個才是民主國家來我們來看你就告訴我你現在115年編的統籌分配稅款財務法是不是根據三月份通過的對不對對嘛那增加多少增加多少比去年增加多少比114年增加4198億"},{"start":4120.373,"end":4126.859,"text":"就是115年中央統籌分配稅款規模到8,874億可是你減少了一般補助款呢你又減少了計畫補助款呢一般性補助款維持2,501億那計畫性補助款變一點點而已啊 對不對你的標是這樣子啊所以這個要三個一起看啦三個一起看請問你增加多少就統籌加一般加計畫全部增加多少"},{"start":4147.436,"end":4163.861,"text":"全部三項加起來是一兆一千六百八的三億比114年增加一千五百五十二億增加一千五啦不是你講的四千多啦三個全部加起來您剛剛問的是中央統籌分配稅款所以我就中央統籌分配稅款來說明所以三個要一起看統籌加一般加計畫增加一千五百多億沒有你講的多偉大啦四千多億啦第二個因為我時間有限第二個"},{"start":4176.244,"end":4181.248,"text":"你們講了對外講了說今年稅收要比去年減少500億有這個意思嗎不是比去年減少是比這個預算數跟預算數相比那預算數今年115年114年編列的比去年的實增數增加917億這個標題講的實在是聳動啦就為了不要再發普發現金嘛這樣而已"},{"start":4204.469,"end":4207.472,"text":"這個大家的了解你這裡面其實有一個項目剛才有提到了 銀索稅的佔繳款那個是可以操作的啦所以根本不會有這個數字說減少比預算減少500億你們一樣可以讓他不會跟預算一樣"},{"start":4222.771,"end":4239.066,"text":"才好看啊 你介紹不好看啊委員 我們是就事實來做說明那五百億這是一個預估的數字所以跟委員報告就是說我們目前來說因為大家都 比如說大家都會問那跟今年的預算數達成率是怎麼樣達成率多少嘛報告數就是大概98到99之間就這樣子啊那達成預算數是有挑戰的我們是用事實來做說明你所說的佔加款多交一點就有了啊"},{"start":4250.856,"end":4258.165,"text":"那個銀索稅這個部分沒有錯銀索稅 多繳一點就有了當然依照法令它要繳納對 依法繳納 好 我要問你稅劇剩餘剩多少 現在目前來說就稅劇剩餘是主計總署在估算的多少"},{"start":4268.342,"end":4272.328,"text":"目前應該是已經 我就所知是沒有沒有稅據勝利嗎所以1.25兆那個顧立雄提出來的來清台總統要的1.25兆他說是財源稅據勝利加取債"},{"start":4284.945,"end":4302.257,"text":"這個叫瞞天過海 事實上就是舉債啦全數舉債 一個人要舉債5.43億啦 事實上亂啦特別條例是分年編列 分期編列他的裁員有兩項可以錄 當然是要看整體的接收狀況OECD宣布啊 虛擬貨幣申報框架CRF"},{"start":4314.785,"end":4318.107,"text":"12月4號他們說2027號有48個國家要交換文件去年財政部說你要營業到日時機你們有沒有營業有關所謂的虛擬貨幣或者是穩定幣它在目前來說在金管會有訂有虛擬資產的服務法"},{"start":4335.902,"end":4354.557,"text":"那目前應該還在行政院嘛那等到這個法制化確認了以後它相關的性質確認那賦稅當然是跟著它最後的定位的定性的性質來做賦稅的處理那目前我們看我們相關的相關它的定性以後以目前的稅制來說是可以有相關的可以適用的所以你也告訴我們一個方向可以嗎以後是要課所得稅還是課教育稅還是怎麼樣"},{"start":4363.783,"end":4385.653,"text":"看它是什麼樣的一個定性以後所以資產什麼叫什麼定性定性它就是看它是不是屬於證券支付工具還是證券對 是支付工具還是證券性質然後再用相關的訊號先穩定幣就是支付工具支付工具有什麼可能我想這個有關那個資產服務法裡面相關通過以後我想這個性質會更確定是"},{"start":4389.035,"end":4406.533,"text":"這個要 因為現在這個承接量也很大啦而且穩定必須要開始各國在發行特別是美國變成是跨境在交易都是這一塊我覺得財政部你去年已經宣布你說要延役到現在為止都沒有延役喔要趕快延役了 可以嗎"},{"start":4410.185,"end":4423.565,"text":"不是 你開箱嗎 有沒有是 我們有研議那我想研議的情形也可以那這樣好不好 那就等會你去提一點行政院的那個那個金管會提的案子通過以後你多久可以出來"},{"start":4424.79,"end":4445.54,"text":"行政院通過以後你多久可以出來可以怎樣可以出來可以出來已經課稅制度是不是對大概多久三個月三個月可以吧我想在立法院行政院通過版本以後三個月內在立法院審議通過之前我們一定就會出來最後一個小問題也是很重要的問題你們的國稅局都缺人我要替你替你擔心"},{"start":4451.563,"end":4460.61,"text":"北國南高雄國北部的北區國稅局中區國稅局南區國稅局欠人欠到這樣你看預算額缺額都這樣事實上所以這個停侃年金就很有道理啊就大家不要考報考高考的人越來越少到你們的分得也越來越少你可以看到"},{"start":4473.199,"end":4478.343,"text":"缺了大概將近6%而且是預算數實際上你編的還沒這麼多請問你編線比多少 編線比編線比 線有編制跟實際的這個部分我們有可能要 手邊沒有這個資料可能回去要再查這樣子事實上我這裡是給你高估預算8400人事實上你的限制沒有這麼多"},{"start":4497.398,"end":4503.446,"text":"沒有8400人的這個資料這個會有給我們編制員通常超過預算員編制員會超過現在我想這樣子國稅局的同仁當然缺額是有出現我們也努力的就改善工作環境確實"},{"start":4515.601,"end":4532.877,"text":"稅務工作非常的繁雜也非常的繁複然後民眾當然也會希望稅務同仁在服務的時候能夠多加的說明跟更有耐心那當然同仁在工作上的辛苦我們都理解我們希望你也希望委員能夠多支持我們聽出來就是聽你講話說你們缺人啊對不對 鼓勵大家來報考"},{"start":4537.722,"end":4542.365,"text":"委員能夠多支持我們這個預算對 我們預算能夠支持那同仁才能夠獲得相對比較好的工作環境現在報考人數也少了跟公教的年金一直砍也有關係啦所以停砍年金啦是一個正確的做法讓你好的人能夠進來公務體系嘛你看這個你這個不是今年這樣而已喔去年也這樣子喔每一年都缺額財政部來講的話很辛苦的 國稅局也很辛苦的"},{"start":4567.482,"end":4570.083,"text":"工作非常辛苦 要請委員支持好 謝謝賴時保委員質詢接下來請郭國文委員謝謝主席 有請莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":4595.99,"end":4613.08,"text":"委員好部長好剛剛一直在爭論說我們的我國的稅收到底有沒有短徵的問題其實遇與道破就在於說我們今年編列的這個那個稅客收入的部分本來在整個預算書的審查就增加了4705億對不對"},{"start":4615.962,"end":4641.289,"text":"立法院的审查的时候又加码105亿 不是吗所以也就是说在比起今年比起去年的部分在税收的部分就增加了4810亿 不是吗这就符合我们原来预估数所以300到500亿之间也不够相差大概1%而已就被诠释成所谓的经济衰退什么税收倒退你们这要讲清楚好不好"},{"start":4642.429,"end":4657.064,"text":"那第二个的部分就内容的部分才是关键的所在你去看我们今年1到11月的进口总值这个同期成长23.5%可是我们的关税收入还衰退3.8%"},{"start":4658.906,"end":4672.838,"text":"你們有沒有去研究過到底是什麼原因是需求不足 投資不足除了車輛衰退11%之外還沒有什麼其他的可能性你們要去說明是這個問題部長 我就請教你你不是說個理由"},{"start":4674.65,"end":4694.384,"text":"关税的减收最主要还是因为汽车的关系就是汽车11%才11%不是吗这都是问题你们要去了解说产业上是不是有偏重哪些哪些出了问题你们从关税的角度出现了什么问题这是第一个对不对第二个货物税的部分减少可是问题"},{"start":4695.385,"end":4720.575,"text":"过去小额包裹的这个免税的问题上个会期这个部长你就说要检讨要检讨到哪里去那最近整个中国货物已经把整个台湾的市场内地化了不是吗上次你有一个正面回应你说要去研究检讨要检讨到哪里去那第一叫请消这个问题已经影响到台湾的这个相关的内需产业是第一第二个部分你也没有去评估过"},{"start":4721.255,"end":4749.04,"text":"到底去年這個小額包裹我們總共得到5000件你去看看美國也取消這個免稅的門檻歐盟跟英國也都取消了那到底財政部的態度怎麼樣也沒看到 你們說要檢討到底這個5000件如果假設取消這個免稅的門檻的話也就是一年12次半年6次2000元這個部分會不會增加多少稅收部長 你們到底有沒有做研究"},{"start":4749.975,"end":4754.577,"text":"這個部分確實財政部也已經研議了然後我們我們認為這個部分我們原來從3000降為2000那是不是要再做調整我們已經有初步方案會跟行政院再做討論那你至少你當初討論你也跟那個委員會這邊回覆一下你們評估多少會影響稅收影響多少你們讓我們知道一下對不對"},{"start":4775.165,"end":4801.341,"text":"我们可以把相关数据给委员另外最近从内容当中房地合一税衰退了3.9%看起来好像很大其实不是是自然人的税收的部分是衰退了23.9%其实公司行号还是一直在买然后就有人讲话说财政部长说认为央行打太凶所以税收短缺部长你有讲这句话吗"},{"start":4801.741,"end":4808.343,"text":"沒有那個是媒體下的標題內容完全沒有好像你在打臉央行的臉是標題下的你要澄清你是部長你看我們再仔細看一下內容這些量價的變化反映在房市的後市的部分你去看"},{"start":4822.563,"end":4848.294,"text":"两税合一的部分少了这些钱两税合一少了3.9但事实上它坐落在短期的这个部分就是适用税率20%的这个部分跟过去相比这个就不一样就减少比例但是在20%的部分以前45% 35%是最高的税收来源现在变成20%也就是说过去短期投资客"},{"start":4848.954,"end":4876.776,"text":"会征收到比较多的税金现在变中长期的投资客会征收到比较多的税金那其实这个也是理性你往前推45跟20相差25那20到15你相差只有5而已所以会做到这个部分来做一个交易的一个结算这个部分你有没有考虑过财政部从这一个两税合一当中你怎么去看未来你可能税收的预估也可以评估未来的房市的状况怎么样部长你到底有没有去评估过"},{"start":4877.386,"end":4903.304,"text":"这才是关键所在对我们在税收的一个估算的时候会把这些的因素都会放进去那未来房市你怎么看你说未来的什么房市房地产的市场是不是那从最近来看它事实上交易量是有减少然后价格是平稳的所以你会调降你房地合一税的这个税收的目标吗"},{"start":4904.164,"end":4926.279,"text":"会去一起检讨的会检讨是调降还是调升那当然应该是会因为房地合一税这个部分事实上跟他的持有期间的长短就有关系当时他的目的就是希望要不要做短期的投资而已这个部分了解那我们当然认为交易量减少他的这个税收当然就会跟着减少跟交易量会有关系"},{"start":4926.639,"end":4951.073,"text":"現在是11月而已還有一個月的時間現在短收的部分只有3.9%你們去評估看看但是說來的話說到這個就要跟部長就較一個部分既然是這樣子的話你看房地產的趨勢可能就是相對的看空相對的看空的情況底下我們就要問"},{"start":4952.415,"end":4958.221,"text":"為什麼最近我們財政部還對外講出會有所謂的新清安的2.0為什麼"},{"start":4965.3,"end":4989.17,"text":"新清安這個政策到明年115年的7月就告一個段落那至於未來這個部分要做怎麼樣的一些調整你是因為房市摔下來然後你要支撐房市嗎倒也不是我們會因為要借期了嘛那後續要怎麼樣的來做推出或做怎麼樣處理我們這個部分要預先預擬當然房地產的市場金融市場以及整個情況我們都會納入我們考慮的一個因素"},{"start":4993.012,"end":5017.38,"text":"可是那个条件上是受到诟病最多的就是以前你把旧清安改成新清安的时候把年限三十年改成四十年把这个宽限期三年变五年然后把额度八千变一千额度八千它变一千老实讲本席没有什么意见之前本席就跟你讨论过为什么过去清清安当中会让人家觉得诟病的地方它会变一个奇货你五年刚刚好"},{"start":5018.683,"end":5043.045,"text":"你剛剛房地合一的交易的成本金額最低如果說你還持有6年自住的話你還可以用10%的稅率而且還有400萬的免稅額等於是你參與這個新青岸的購買行動相對於炒房當中你又不用繳稅所以一大堆人集體集團在那邊購買新青岸就是過去新青岸一直受到詬病的地方不漲"},{"start":5044.4,"end":5050.048,"text":"你有没有把这个问题想进去当你要推新清案的时候这些都应该要做检讨不是吗"},{"start":5050.96,"end":5078.509,"text":"在新清安的执行过程当中我们有检讨也做调整第一个我们对各银行在审核的时候要加强审核第二个对于所谓的人头户或是买了以后出租的严加去追溯然后一生只有一次你不能买进又卖出你讲到这个就是外界一直受到抨击的地方以前就是你们是大方送根本没有事先的这个审核的门槛是被检讨了之后才有事后的查核不是吗"},{"start":5079.509,"end":5102.492,"text":"原来事先都没有事后才加也事先的审核一定要有现在的问题就来了就是要问你你接下来所谓的新青岚2.0你有没有身分上的一些限制这是其一其二在条件门槛上没有可能调整的空间你不要告诉本席说因为时间到了要衔接那如果衔接出来又是这种方式就不是在救青年购屋而是在救房市"},{"start":5105,"end":5118.586,"text":"委員這個部分不是這個委員您提的不是對我的意思就是說您提到就是說後續要怎麼樣做我們目前在蒐集各界的意見以及看房地產的市場金融市場整個變化會做調整嗎就是說條件上要購買的條件上你要有一些門檻"},{"start":5126.809,"end":5139.799,"text":"对不对 身分嘛 对不对第二个的部分呢也就是说你要什么要继续用这个所谓的宽限期五年让他把它期货化这要思考嘛"},{"start":5140.885,"end":5157.811,"text":"对啊 你们要退缩回来避免炒房对不对好 主要本事委员的意见我们都会纳入对 这个很关键要退缩之后要慎思好不好那接下来那个刚刚你就提了你那个整个税收的因为"},{"start":5159.301,"end":5176.757,"text":"财发法的版本的修改之前的第一个版本已经通过了明年的部分整个中央会少了3000少了3000几亿对不对超过3000亿3000亿38亿好 3000亿38亿那也是地方你会多给的好像3543你刚刚讲是这样子"},{"start":5178.635,"end":5206.997,"text":"三千多亿嘛就简单的讲中央少了很多要举债地方多了很多结果每次谈到这个税制的改变的时候你都对地方非常的体贴特别是这个娱乐税跟这个樱花税每次跟你提到的时候你就说我们要问一下地方的意见地方呢基本上呢认为是不宜废掉这个樱花税跟娱乐税为什么因为要保留地方的自由的甩元跟财务自主的空间那我问你啊"},{"start":5207.737,"end":5219.061,"text":"部長 現在已經增加了3000多億地方已經增加了3000多億了夯不啷噹 我算過這是印花稅多少錢不過是多少 188億 對地方然後娛樂稅是21億加起來不過是210億"},{"start":5225.895,"end":5242.589,"text":"我问一下部长有没有重新检讨的空间主动权在你身上娱乐税的修正草案已经送请大院在审议当中了那印花税188亿对地方来说他们是都坚持反对要把它废除"},{"start":5243.489,"end":5269.483,"text":"你就说因为财源现在财源多那么多你还因为这个你要站在税制改革的角度第一次在审查货物税或使用牌照税他们都说你如果减了税使用牌照税这是我地方税你如果给我修了你就要补我税损这个事实上是当然我们了解但是因为涉及到地方的财政制度我们还是要参考地方政府的意见你要增加这么多钱你还在讲这种话那他们都还讲这种话你们剧本能不能改一下"},{"start":5270.083,"end":5288.353,"text":"不是我的剧本是他们的剧本你这财政不是听地方财政局的话那是地方税 地方税问题是税基的部分你可以调整不是吗 部长学丁权在你你回去好好检讨一下可不可以现在已经没有所谓的他的财务自主的问题了"},{"start":5289.454,"end":5292.537,"text":"他的財務狀況這麼好你還在考慮這一個問題條件不一樣了 部長重新檢討一下好不好好 謝謝委員是 謝謝委員請部長再回去檢討一下好 謝謝郭國文委員接下來請賴會員委員質詢"},{"start":5312.14,"end":5337.638,"text":"謝謝主席 我請我們財政部部長還有榮良署署長榮良署陳副署長 陳副署長部長 我想今天我們要面對就是不公平的一個貿易的傾銷的一個險境下我們怎麼樣保護住本土的釀酒產業的命脈"},{"start":5339.059,"end":5356.412,"text":"那在這裡我想跟你探討一下就是說如果我請教你就是說我們的啤酒花跟中麥芽那到底一年進口多少的數量那這一個關稅是多少然後你的稅損是多少"},{"start":5360.05,"end":5374.161,"text":"麥芽它的進口平均每一年的進口量是41958萬公噸那大概關稅稅收是6700萬那至於啤酒花的話每年平均大概進口量是127公噸那關稅收入是393萬"},{"start":5382.558,"end":5389.159,"text":"所以如果就是說你降低關稅的話你的稅損會是多少這兩樣"},{"start":5392.592,"end":5402.663,"text":"有沒有算過 有算過如果我們降低關稅的話就關稅的稅收損失大概是7435萬但是因為降稅以後我們認為可以提升我們國產啤酒市場的競爭力讓我們的啤酒的需求可以增加所以認為預估可以增加的稅收是16974萬"},{"start":5415.456,"end":5431.041,"text":"所以扣就是增加扣掉一來一去的話一來一去的話事實上是可以增加9539萬的還是可以淨收益的還可以淨收益9000多萬目前的稅收的評估是這樣謝謝委員"},{"start":5431.661,"end":5459.011,"text":"好那事實上就是說財政部雖然祭出了還請銷稅但可是這個數字會說話為什麼就是進口的這個啤酒進口量不減緩增這個是不是這個事實是不是告訴我們說你的還請銷其實是沒有用的你看我們現在就是截至這個114年到10月底為止我們進口的啤酒"},{"start":5460.231,"end":5474.794,"text":"就講這個中國大陸它是64%那台灣我們自己的就是市產額的這個佔有率才36%那顯然你的還請敲碎是沒有用的"},{"start":5475.737,"end":5501.708,"text":"所以部長有沒有想到一個更好的方式就是說我把它計較在就是降低成本的顏料來支持在地的產業以及檢視目前國內的農產品的一個培育計畫那我不知道就是說你對於國產品啤酒面臨的在死亡交叉跟進口的死亡交叉你的還請銷稅有沒有要再做什麼樣的一個補充"},{"start":5502.994,"end":5527.101,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員的提示從您這張做的表裡面你看中國大陸裡面進口的啤酒佔比佔了64%相當的高我們從開始課徵反請銷稅從7月開始課徵臨時反請銷稅以及回溯課徵以後它的進口量事實上已經在縮減可以看到這個部分課徵反請銷稅的一個效益"},{"start":5528.137,"end":5532.198,"text":"7月3號我們開始課臨時反請銷稅已經大幅減少在7月到11月我們統計已經減少85%的一個進口量"},{"start":5552.276,"end":5568.647,"text":"減少85%的進口量那顯然就是跟六月相比就用六月相比那會不會是只是一個階段性所以顯然如果這樣子的話差別是這麼大的話那你的還請銷售這個這個政策就是成功的"},{"start":5569.621,"end":5590.491,"text":"當然如同委員說的他可能有季節性的一個因素但是我們11月27號已經公告了這個啤酒稅返請銷稅已經確定了會課到31% 19%甚至到51%左右那我們會看後續的一個效果另外我們也有回溯課徵11月27號返請銷稅公告也"},{"start":5595.453,"end":5623.878,"text":"有回溯課程會回溯到4月4號顯然顯然這一個如果我們從那個市場的那個數據上來看的話我們的還請銷是有效的今天特別要跟就是部長跟所有各位就是做一個就是台灣的精釀精釀啤酒尤其是台灣的農作物高質化成功的一個典換那個部長你知道這一瓶酒叫做桂花他是用桂花釀的"},{"start":5624.838,"end":5647.103,"text":"這一瓶酒叫做米魯它是用我們貨幣最好的白米去釀的所以我們其實都看到了台灣精釀的啤酒的一個市場那顯然就是說在降低顏料的成本跟支持在地的一個研發是可以幫台灣就是我們的台灣啤酒"},{"start":5648.303,"end":5673.349,"text":"另外再殺出重圍我在這裡要特別跟部長做一個探討如果我們鼓勵青年返鄉創業在鼓勵農產子的一個價值的話是不是應該就是對於這一些在地因為農業本來就免稅可是你進到了這一個精量廠的時候有沒有辦法幫他們免稅"},{"start":5677.109,"end":5695.447,"text":"今天這個提案裡面有關啤酒花跟麥芽這個部分委員提案都建議關稅調降為零這個部分財政部立場認為是說因為可以降低關稅的負擔就可以降低我們國產啤酒的生產成本提高它的競爭力跟市占率"},{"start":5696.687,"end":5718.861,"text":"我們認為他可以這樣子更好可以跟進口的啤酒來競爭而且我們也徵詢過農業部農糧署的意見對於國內的相關的農業產業並沒有影響所以在這個部分對於委員提案的有關降低關稅的部分財政部基本上是支持的也就是委員也提到就是說降低他們的一個生產成本讓他更有競爭力然後市占率可以提高以上"},{"start":5720.362,"end":5747.688,"text":"我在針對的這個副署長我再請教你那個農糧署副署長我再請教你一下就是說在未來是不是有相對應的一個配套的一個措施我們知道就是說這個啤酒花那個就是啤酒花已經在花蓮的農改廠已經開始試種了試種的效果也非常好那就是說本土的啤酒花如果就是可以有一個規模的一個產量的話"},{"start":5748.948,"end":5776.682,"text":"那就是把這個面積擴大還有加上補貼的話是不是有辦法就是說把這個農業的培育計畫跟產業的轉型就是把它就是做一個很大的提升有沒有機會你們有沒有這樣的一個氣魄那委員有講到因為大麥跟啤酒花這兩項都是溫帶作物那目前在國內它沒有一個"},{"start":5777.549,"end":5802.879,"text":"经济的栽培规模所以对进口关税调降的部分农业部农粮署是没有意见那委员有讲到我现在在问你的就是说你的啤酒花是不是就是在花莲农改厂已经试种成功了吗那你可以扩大这个面积吗这个部分农业部农粮署跟花莲区农业改良厂他们在花莲的玉林那边你有没有这样的一个计划"},{"start":5804.42,"end":5823.53,"text":"它已经有市中的灾培那你要补贴嘛那是走特色化的部分我们会就本土的灾培跟市中特色的部分也会加以辅导所以你的面积要扩大嘛我们会加以辅导国内的部分那是面积要不要扩大我们会看灾培市中的情况来做辅导推广"},{"start":5824.13,"end":5842.194,"text":"所以你現在站在這邊你也還是還在規劃中我想你提出計畫來好不好好 這個我們會來規劃顯然現在我聽一聽好像也沒有看到一個比較特別因為這個本來就是已經培育成功了你當然要擴大面積不然你怎麼讓它減稅呢那你怎麼扶持國內的啤酒產業呢"},{"start":5846.235,"end":5848.938,"text":"我們會來規劃因為這個部分花蓮去農改廠在花蓮已經有市眾我們會來看市眾的情況再做推廣再接著我想再請教一下財政部長就是說有一則外媒的廣告就是美國關稅的豁免到底是善意還是一個漏洞"},{"start":5865.555,"end":5880.659,"text":"我們要謹慎就是說川普川普他是不是會鎖定台灣的一個半導體那他這裡頭講到的一個說美國自台灣進口的商品只有23%是被徵收緊急的關稅然後"},{"start":5882.74,"end":5905.027,"text":"在42%的商品裡頭獲得豁免的關稅那另外35%是試用就是貿易擴張那個貿易擴張法的第232條那部長我在這裡要請教目前我們有沒有盤點哪一些商品是被課稅的又有哪一些商品是被豁免的就你所知"},{"start":5906.914,"end":5926.039,"text":"有關台美關稅的相關的談判目前行政院的談判的代表都還在持續的在沒有錯我想他們這個部分如果有最後的結果一定會跟社會來做報告對 是這些被課稅這被課稅的是到底哪一些產業"},{"start":5927.299,"end":5938.183,"text":"你不可能都完全不知道那課稅的當然目前來說台灣輸美的部分就是所用暫時關稅是20%也就是N加20%這樣的來課稅也就是這樣有一些也是0%的譬如說像晶片的話我們的集體電路這些都是進口關稅因為是有232條款目前來說在赴美的條款關稅稅率還是0"},{"start":5953.428,"end":5981.718,"text":"那到底有42%的商品是获得豁免的关税吗这个有没有包括就是我们的半导体这42%有没有包括我们的半导体我想这个部分都还在目前谈判的当中那当然试用232条款的部分当然还是目前来说还是维持试用232条款如果试用在232的话它就有35%的商品那试用在232的话又是哪些商品"},{"start":5982.338,"end":5995.444,"text":"部長可以跟我們說明一下嗎這個部分可能相關的細節蠻多的232條款適用的商品232適用的商品可以誰回答我我們看一下我們手邊的資料"},{"start":5999.166,"end":6019.441,"text":"你們總不會就是說我們就是備詢的時候才特別去關心到232到底是哪些商品財政部232的部分有鋼鋁汽車還有一些汽車的一些配件還有一些木製品銅製品等等大概應該將近有10項左右"},{"start":6020.401,"end":6048.155,"text":"是啊所以說這些商品的話事實上就是說其實都是非常多的就是說等於是你可以告訴大家這個是一個利多他們是不會被課到稅的是不是這樣子我可以不可以這樣講232的條款跟這一次的對等關稅是不一樣課232的就不會課對等關稅所以232能不能獲得豁免那可能還是要雙邊談判"},{"start":6050.354,"end":6059.964,"text":"232已經是會被豁免的那個貿易擴這個應該是很清楚了你還這樣贏了為大家又引起市場的恐慌"},{"start":6061.856,"end":6074.687,"text":"你這樣回答的話是不是所以部長我想就是說我們回答得非常謹慎所以有關台美關稅團你們就是非常的謹慎過度的謹慎每一次都引發市場的一個緊張當然就是說"},{"start":6081.573,"end":6102.881,"text":"我想就是針對的半導體如果未來有進行到課稅的話財政部你要如何因應那我想提供一些那個就是你們的那個因應的資料跟本息在這裡我這樣子跟就是財政部要這些資料好不好再提供書面的因應資料給賴委員謝謝賴會員委員接下來我們請李彥秀委員質詢"},{"start":6121.038,"end":6126.309,"text":"感謝召委我是不是可以請部長請莊部長還有公務署署長還有公務署 彭署長"},{"start":6129.557,"end":6145.846,"text":"委員好部長好署長早安我們隨著後疫情民眾所有的消費習慣都做了一個很大的改變我觀察到我們每一年進口快遞的數量現在民眾都習慣在平台上購物無論從各國歐洲美國包括大陸都有"},{"start":6152.049,"end":6157.331,"text":"所以進口快遞的數目都是呈現攀升的狀況我從關務署進口快遞貨物的檢疫報單收單的份數當中我觀察到從去年114年1月到10月總共有52,000"},{"start":6171.646,"end":6175.771,"text":"52555萬份然後113年1月到10月總共有4608萬份我們今年11 12月現在的11 12月剛好又是聖誕的旺季又碰到這個雙11跟12分量"},{"start":6190.029,"end":6216.436,"text":"其实无论是感恩节或者是圣诞节其实都吸引大批的民众从欧美中国大陆购买优惠的商品我想这个是整个后疫情时代大家消费习惯的改变所以伴随整个跨境的物流带来大量的无论是在空运的部分或者在海块通关的需求对于我们关务署来说我知道是一个非常大的挑战"},{"start":6217.156,"end":6240.681,"text":"那我這邊我要請問部長是說從去年11、12月進口快遞貨物檢疫報單的收單數來看我們今年已經達到1238萬份那我們預估今年到年底到底會不會超過去年的份數關於進口量的一個趨勢我是不是可以請管務署來做說明署長今年會不會超過去年的"},{"start":6242.443,"end":6250.766,"text":"根據統計來說今年的量跟去年差不多啦差不多你的數字大概是多少那包括今年總數差不多那我請問11 12月的海關海運跟空運的快遞平均會不會比去年差應該不會因為這些都是忘記"},{"start":6268.709,"end":6279.344,"text":"應該是不會比去年差數字一樣嗎 是多還是少差不多 應該差不多 數字都差不多十月差不多差距不大"},{"start":6281.286,"end":6302.769,"text":"差距不大 是差多少麻煩你會有提供給我數字據我私底下的了解我們11月的收單數會呈現下滑的狀況因為我們現在大批的人力都花在前一陣子非洲豬瘟我們要加強查緝部長 我覺得加強查緝"},{"start":6304.737,"end":6316.033,"text":"我認為是應該的但是我們不能發生事情才加強茶氣嘛對於非洲豬瘟我覺得國人食品的安全我向來都非常的重視所以它應該是一個長期的"},{"start":6321.108,"end":6347.251,"text":"檢查方式不是因為現在發生事情之後我加強查緝部長你了解我在講什麼的邏輯嗎你清楚嗎了解委員的意思也就是說我們變你現在加強查緝之前我從媒體上看到說我面臨非洲說我們加強查緝這句話另外一個層面的意思就是告訴我說過去都是邊境管理鬆散"},{"start":6351.97,"end":6364.655,"text":"這個狀況所以就是說我重視食品安全我覺得那是應該是一套長期標準的SOP什麼樣的標準的SOP什麼樣的量能是我們覺得足夠的"},{"start":6366.124,"end":6379.269,"text":"他不是應該是發生事情之後我們加強查緝那我要請問一下就是說11月的海運跟空運的快遞總共查獲了幾件豬肉署長你這邊有數字嗎115件左右115件跟過去我們查緝查到的比例數字的比例有沒有太大的差別"},{"start":6396.216,"end":6412.134,"text":"跟去年大概是應該是有增加有增加我們因為加強茶系的增加多少 還是有一些增加這個比例的數字如果要佔比的話可能要再總比一下你花那麼多的精力我想知道數量因為"},{"start":6412.754,"end":6425.664,"text":"你這個110多件跟我們現在手提行李一般帶進來的民眾不了解說這個蛋捲裡面有含豬肉啦帶進來的麵包裡面不小心含有小火腿啦"},{"start":6426.943,"end":6453.432,"text":"我覺得都應該仔細的檢查我的大原則大方向還是如此但是謝謝委員的支持不講不講但是我還是要強調那是一個長期對於邊境管理很標準的一個SOP我不希望是因為發生事情才來處理但是我要提到的是民眾消費習慣改變之後對於無論通關從哪一個國家買進來從平台上購物的那個量我覺得"},{"start":6455.333,"end":6470.443,"text":"公務署還是要去做處理跟解決因為這是民眾的權我們常在講貨要出得去也要進得來人要流通我們的國家財務狀況才會健全才會更好我想你了解我的意思所以現在"},{"start":6470.763,"end":6486.701,"text":"很多貨都塞在無論空運或海運都塞在我們目前靠港的港口我聽到的狀況是這樣所以從各網站無論從PTT或者Facebook或者Dcard或Trade上面都很多網友在討論因為很多在平台購物都是很多的年輕人"},{"start":6487.762,"end":6506.117,"text":"都在提到就是說現在的櫃位吃緊港口擁塞還有包括通關的量能造成現在貨物塞的狀況其實非常的嚴重那當然通關慢你就會導致貨櫃就塞在那邊或甚至是港口會擁塞的狀況"},{"start":6507.658,"end":6514.842,"text":"這是一個循環部長你了解我這是一個循環連帶的影響無論是查查我們國人食品的安全也好或者是貨要進得來也好我覺得這個都是我們政府要處理的問題你要用什麼樣的方法處理你要用更先進的科技AI的處理方式或什麼樣的處理我覺得這都是我們應該解決的問題"},{"start":6535.333,"end":6543.999,"text":"我覺得包括我們量能邊境茶葉的量能夠不夠我們人力夠不夠我們的科技管理要不要更精進的去做處理"},{"start":6545.297,"end":6566.155,"text":"這個是我部長我今天要質詢的重點因為這都是我們政府要處理的問題這剛好都會是在你財政部底下要處理的問題部長 那所以我們要怎麼處理因為前一陣子我看到你說我看到有一份資料告訴我說我們財政部現在增加快遞查驗人力的員額我們要改成全數X光檢查"},{"start":6567.376,"end":6573.645,"text":"但是全數X光檢查本來就是在我們過去標準的SOP所有貨進來都會經過X光檢查所以這個不是在解決問題部長"},{"start":6580.529,"end":6598.964,"text":"我是在提說我們到底有沒有更精進的處理方法無論是增加人力是一種方法增加人力本來一個鐘頭可以看幾包貨我們現在增加人力可能大家可以稍微休息看的貨的速度可以更快或者用更先進的科技管理所以這個問題到底如何解決"},{"start":6600.76,"end":6602.301,"text":"謝謝委員對我們官務業務的一個重視我想邊境的管制是非常重要的那非洲豬瘟不講這個我都清楚我沒有否定我也支持但是貨怎麼樣進得來不要造成消費者跟"},{"start":6615.988,"end":6619.429,"text":"業者之間的消費糾紛第一個我們要加強茶器第一個X光的一個檢查本來就百分之百但是我們必須要讓官員有一個時間可以不是說經過就算了一定要讓同仁要加強第二個我們也要加強開箱的一個茶宴也就是人工茶宴的一個比例"},{"start":6634.835,"end":6637.617,"text":"因為大家知道非洲豬瘟的發生你做這些我都支持但是後續在貨物進來的部分怎麼去做解決因為這都是政府要處理的問題我想海關同仁已經盡了全力來做這個查緝我覺得這個部分我們必須要給予海關同仁的支持"},{"start":6654.431,"end":6658.153,"text":"那也謝謝委員的支持另外像我們115年編列的有關手持X光機的太舊喚醒因為也都沒有辦法執行這些我都知道但是還是沒有解決貨物怎麼樣更流暢更流通我們台灣海關的通關的一個效率是跟國際比起來絕對是比其他國家都來得快"},{"start":6677.163,"end":6682.686,"text":"我們的同仁已經盡全力來在做這個查驗的工作包括在人力的增加 包括在科技的調整讓我們貨可以看得更快 更精準這麼多年來其實海關在人力的一個資源上其實行政院也都盡力的在支持那在經濟上也還需要立法院的支持"},{"start":6700.276,"end":6716.969,"text":"部長你還是沒有回答到我的問題我花了十分鐘問這些你還是沒有回答到我剛才講的這些對於食品安全檢查我都全力的支持我也認為該做這是一個常態性長期應該做不是發生事情才做我提醒你所以我支持第二塊"},{"start":6717.93,"end":6741.902,"text":"在催上面 在臉書上面在所有網站年輕人在討論的怎麼樣讓通關可以更順暢因為現在都是在塞車所以剛才我才有連帶貨櫃吃緊然後塞在物流 港口也擁捨這個部分我們沒有更進一步精進的檢查方式是我今天檢討的重點但是我非常遺憾你還是沒有回答到我的問題"},{"start":6742.938,"end":6750.402,"text":"委員的部分已經說明了沒有回答你沒有回答我沒有我覺得非常遺憾是你還是沒有回答到我的食品的安全加強我全力的支持但是我非常遺憾的現在我剛才貨要出得去也要能夠進得來貨物的流通國家財政狀況也可以更好但是我非常遺憾你沒有回答到我們沒有更精進的做法你現在沒有回答到我的問題這就是我覺得我們現在在通關的部分我覺得沒有辦法解決的地方"},{"start":6771.334,"end":6774.295,"text":"我還是希望期待到看到你有更精進的做法 以上好 謝謝李燕修委員質詢接下來請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":6795.274,"end":6801.227,"text":"主席再討論員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長公共夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":6807.375,"end":6828.801,"text":"我也好部長好今天的第一前半段要稱許一下財政部的積極作為我們來看一下但是還是要先考驗一下我看到您在媒體上才那麼表達預估全年的稅收可能短增我們過去連續三年好像都有稅收都超過預期對不對但你們估計今年會少300億"},{"start":6831.51,"end":6847.869,"text":"我们估计中央的部分是差不多400亿到500亿多少那么多地方的全国是300到500那是因为房市低迷车市关税土增税货物税那些都有影响"},{"start":6848.741,"end":6865.163,"text":"但是你们是在今年就是说明年的预算你们是在今年的概算四五月就编了对不对所以你们要编制下半年的预算下个年度的预算对不对所以你在今年的上半年要评估明年的税收这样有精准吗"},{"start":6865.583,"end":6882.423,"text":"沒有錯 這個當然我們在每年四五月就開始收集資料以及召開相關的專家小組的會議來做預估第二年的稅客收入的一個所以你們還是認為你們的對稅收的估算是有它的科學跟精準性的當然 我們這個部分也持續經濟各位報告"},{"start":6884.625,"end":6894.711,"text":"我為了要問的是下一題因為你們說啤酒原料降稅有百利而無一害當然我們很希望是這樣子因為我們主張將進口的啤酒花免除進口關稅可以降低我們國產啤酒的生產成本有助於跟進口啤酒競爭對不對而且就你們報告而且你們估計稅損是大概不到7500萬但是由於"},{"start":6909.18,"end":6919.538,"text":"我們的國產啤酒市場經驗提高我們的需求成長可以增加1億快7000萬的1億7000萬的這個收入所以綜合起來也快多了快1億是這樣嗎"},{"start":6921.448,"end":6943.337,"text":"所以你們是基於這個理由我們的稅市支出評估以後大概的結果是這樣好 我支持也希望你們的預測是準的往下看可是我們過去在過去這一整年當中你看我們財委會做了幾次的事情就是關於在6月我們去考察海關防傾銷 防洗產地我們開了兩次記者會要求財政部趕快開支臨時的反傾銷稅還告訴你中國啤酒的市占率已經超過台灣的啤酒了是不是這樣子"},{"start":6951.434,"end":6964.838,"text":"而且最重要的原因是怎樣很多民眾以為這些來自中國的啤酒是美國的品牌或日本的品牌甚至是冒充以為是台灣國產的有沒有這樣的情況因為它在標籤上做了一些混帽那我們看到了結果財政部在首次對於中國的啤酒和鋼品我們對它進行反傾銷而且還動用了回溯條款史無前例 過去財政部沒有這樣做"},{"start":6978.168,"end":6988.053,"text":"好 所以這個破例我們支持大家往下看所以但是問題是怎樣不是只有台灣中國的低價傾銷全世界其實在中國的內需疲軟之下它的高價的茅台賣不動民生的啤酒也賣不多但是中國的啤酒產能又過剩不只這啤酒這些東西傾銷全國什麼鋼鐵 水泥 光電板 服飾 化工製品包括啤酒在內這是不是受到台灣目前的國內市場受到"},{"start":7006.802,"end":7008.07,"text":"全世界都受到中國低價傾銷的影響"},{"start":7010.684,"end":7035.989,"text":"確實有79件在今年的上半年中國的低價傾銷讓全世界有79件的一個反傾銷的調查那我們看一下往下看所以我們來看一下在我們國內有反傾銷稅跟平衡稅對不對那這兩個辦法是不是都要受損的業者來提出像鋼品的部分是中鋼提出然後產業代表性的業者才能提出平衡稅原則上是這樣對 沒錯那你覺得這樣會不會"},{"start":7039.13,"end":7042.533,"text":"不夠快能夠有效的監控或及時的展開調查嗎我們關務組在受理後都會用一定的時間裡面因為在這個相關的辦法裡面都有實現我們跟經濟部會一起來做相關的調查的我之所以今天要問這個問題不是重提往事而是我過去這將近一年來我們為了這兩件事情鋼品跟啤酒"},{"start":7063.47,"end":7078.59,"text":"一直在敦促要求財政部要積極但是財政部有既定的程序要跑因為你們法規就這樣規定所以要業者提出業者還有具有代表性的提出後你們還要進行調查然後業者送資料基本上財政部的態度就是業者你送資料來我會"},{"start":7079.531,"end":7101.555,"text":"公平公允的來處理是不是這樣是的但是我們來看一下美國怎麼做美國他可以直接由主管機關展開反傾銷稅的調查這在美國平衡稅及反傾銷稅相關規章的第一篇之第二章他就寫了說主管機關可以依據手上的資料來認為正式調查方主與確認應主動展開反傾銷稅的調查請問財政部中華民國財政部會認同或認可美國的這樣做法嗎"},{"start":7109.462,"end":7109.964,"text":"那你認為呢在台灣我們這樣來做適不適當"},{"start":7114.351,"end":7139.685,"text":"當然在我們中華民國的法規制度之下我們也是可以根據職權來做的你們也是有法規不動的情況你們還是可以根據職權主動調查還是要我們立法院修法你才能主動調查不需要修法所以說未來如果再有類似的情況發生我們要求財政部主動進行平衡稅或反傾銷稅的調查財政部可不可以拿出破例主動來進行 可以嗎"},{"start":7140.445,"end":7149.494,"text":"我想這個可能不是只是有財政部可能也要跟貨品主管機關當然 包括像經濟部等等對 因為這樣子其實這次經濟部跟你們配合就算不錯對 好 我們再往下看但是現在有一個漏洞有國民黨的立委提出一個離島自由貿易示範區陳玉珍委員提出了離島建設條例增訂第18條之一"},{"start":7162.606,"end":7173.451,"text":"他說怎樣他說離島的縣政府可以在指定的區域設立一個自由貿易區示範區而且他管理辦法離島的縣政府就自治條例定制財政部有沒有看到這個條例這樣的話你們的財政部對於國家海關統進統出中華民國財政部來管理的情況就被地方政府自治條例給突破了你們有什麼看法"},{"start":7190.982,"end":7216.552,"text":"署長來跟您作響 謝謝署長來 署長趕快說報告委員 這有交通部主管的一個法規這是交通部主導的一個法規那我們有參與相關的會議我當然不是問你交通部我是問你說你財政部看到這樣的條例你心裡怎麼想你的反請銷稅 平衡稅你們有職權現在呢 離島建設政府可以自己提那自己提之後呢你財政部 他說自由貿易啊財政部可以接受嗎"},{"start":7218.208,"end":7238.493,"text":"當然這個自貿港區到底要不要准它設置這我財政部也沒有權可以置會沒有權可以置會會不會影響到你的財政的權利影響到你官務的自主權利會不會影響到來自中國的產品吸產機的情況會不會有只要它設立了這個自貿港區的話我們都要配合執行"},{"start":7239.471,"end":7253.362,"text":"所以說立法院通過這個條文對財政部影響很大對國內業者未來面臨到來自中國的傾銷能不能提出反傾銷反洗產地你看過去發生了一個全真瑜伽"},{"start":7254.246,"end":7272.414,"text":"民團 民間團體抗議中資惡意掏空我們看到台積電也是因為有一個低調科技廠被中國收購這些都有國安跟治安的問題我們往下看來 部長請問這兩個你知道哪一個是台灣的職棒隊的LOGO嗎哪一個是這是什麼這是兄弟像對不對中信兄弟啊中信兄弟像對不對對啊前不久鬧雙胞嘛有個上海兄弟"},{"start":7283.751,"end":7305.868,"text":"單單為了這個 台灣的窮迷快氣炸了職棒是台灣非常重要 國人非常重要的一個競爭象徵結果呢 你看中國啤酒 它用台灣的在地文化來混沖中國啤酒它跟日本 美國的知名品牌合作然後呢 另外創了一個品牌讓台灣的消費者以為這是該日本跟美國的品牌有沒有這樣的情況"},{"start":7310.297,"end":7334.169,"text":"所以說如果未來金門的酒廠他叫台灣金酒他跟中國中資合作然後以後從跟中資合作的公司出的酒也叫做金酒來自於中國的酒來到金門之後掛成另外一個像兄弟的這樣logo他就說這是金門酒廠出品的財政部你要怎麼因應有沒有想過這個問題"},{"start":7335.742,"end":7363.518,"text":"我想这个部分就如同刚刚那个啤酒一样其实是我们应该要特别注意你管得到金酒公司吗金酒公司你可以管得到吗金酒公司它如果是属于酒类的主管机关那当然金酒主管机关是在财政部那它事业的主管机关是在金门中资要跟金酒公司合资成另外一个公司就像上海兄弟一样你管得到吗那个是公司法里面对你管不到嘛那它这个合资公司"},{"start":7364.238,"end":7373.956,"text":"金酒公司跟中國資本合作的公司掛金酒出來的產品妳管得到嗎妳可以說它是洗產地嗎妳說它是中國生產的酒要跟它課稅嗎"},{"start":7375.234,"end":7399.153,"text":"這個部分可能要特別注意一下我要請你特別的想一想這個非常的嚴重這個狀況已經潛在了所以我們看到的中國啤酒大量的用其他混貿美日的知名品牌或者混衝台灣的產地讓台灣消費者誤導未來就算自貿區那個條例沒有通過有可能金酒公司跟中國合資後成立一個品牌掛著金門酒廠的名字從中國產品直接拿到台灣來"},{"start":7403.797,"end":7424.335,"text":"你有辦法對他進行反請要的調查嗎是啊 就像我們現在對付中國啤酒那兩支品牌一樣啊有沒有辦法部長你可能一時想不起來我告訴你來 時間的關係問一下過去考一下一般我們去銀行提款辦業務是不是叫你要口罩跟安全帽拿下來"},{"start":7425.968,"end":7444.066,"text":"進銀行之前是不是口罩安全帽拿下來我們那個櫃員會盡量你知道我在問什麼如果到銀行我們安全帽跟口罩要拿下來怕你搶銀行嘛那我們為了怕有人去ATM搞詐欺詐騙要求他把安全帽跟口罩拿下來可不可以"},{"start":7445.882,"end":7471.097,"text":"ATM的部分ATM我们其实有注意到这个那你们做了没有这个部分我们在会议上有讨论到这个部分那做出了决定没必须要在ATM里面上面要加强一个相关的一个知识那你们有没有办法做到什么时候可以做到另外有一个就是说就我所知就是说它可以延缓就是说但是它不会不让你领钱你戴着帽子口罩但是它会出现一个警示"},{"start":7471.757,"end":7486.511,"text":"會出現一些警示我希望你們如果進銀行要除掉安全帽跟口罩希望ATM如果你戴著安全帽和口罩要有效的讓他處以辨識他的容貌才可以進行後續的動作可以演繹嗎"},{"start":7487.311,"end":7510.999,"text":"這個部分我想金管會已經邀集相關機關在討論我們會配合這個政策的一個方向因為你們工股航庫要率先做為什麼問你 我當然知道金管會業務你們工股航庫可不可以率先做是 我們會配合金管會的一個政策方向來 最後的結論因為主席站起來了請盤點我國比照美國各目的世界主管機關主動申請反傾銷稅的調查的可行性一個月提出書面報告 可以嗎"},{"start":7511.892,"end":7533.05,"text":"我們可不可以兩個月每次都一個月我們同仁都要加班好 兩個月請會同今晚會競速限制佩戴安全帽跟口罩的人操作ATM 可以嗎好的 我們可以配合今晚會一起來最後我剛剛講到的金門酒廠有沒有可能出現由中國啤酒洗產地的方式將中國的烈酒"},{"start":7534.633,"end":7541.318,"text":"這個量能過剩的烈酒請教到台灣來是不是先你們研議好的 對委員就提 謝謝委員好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員好 接下來請李坤臣召委質詢謝謝主席我們請莊部長好 請莊部長"},{"start":7561.912,"end":7577.052,"text":"委員好來 部長好那今天我看委員有提案那我看你們的說明應該也是同意就是要調降麥芽還有啤酒花進口關稅應該是到0嘛你以為提案是到0嘛 對不對是的是的所以你們原則上是同意嘛"},{"start":7578.467,"end":7599.456,"text":"是這樣的一個方向因為關稅雖然減少了但是你的這個營酒稅 營業稅 營所稅都增加算了一下反而多了這個預估多了9500多萬是不是因為我們希望這樣子可以降低成本讓我們的國產的啤酒可以提高競爭力而且能夠擴大市場好 那如果有降低成本的話那啤酒可以再便宜一點嗎"},{"start":7606.152,"end":7627.528,"text":"部分可能就要看它在裡面占的成本裡面有算過嗎 大概是這個占它們裡面的成本是多少大概不到1%多而已它比例不是很高因為它還有其他的大概比例是多少因為如果關稅調降那消費者也覺得說那是不是啤酒有機會再調降售價"},{"start":7629.313,"end":7638.618,"text":"這個部分可能因為佔的比例並不是很高對不對 佔多少 佔1% 佔成本的1%大概佔成本的1.73%好 那就是由各個業者他們去做處理我們也從今年的7月3號臨時課徵反請銷稅也生效了我看了一下數字中國啤酒市佔率較6月減少了3.2%"},{"start":7658.507,"end":7675.965,"text":"然後國產啤酒市占率有提高了增加4.38%所以客銷反起銷稅看起來對於提升國產啤酒市占率是有提升的 是有增加的然後我看了一下你們的數字以六月份做基準"},{"start":7677.186,"end":7698.924,"text":"8月到11月的平均進口量從中國大陸進酒皮口這個進口量大概是424萬公升也減少了85.6%減少了85%左右6月份是2944萬然後到了8月到11月平均只有424萬所以可見我們這是有效的 對不對"},{"start":7700.482,"end":7715.95,"text":"是的 謝謝委員的整理這樣非常清楚的順序所以這個對於國產啤酒來講是給予他們支持不然對於中國大陸這些低價的啤酒做請銷而且有很多都是包裝也不實我覺得這個是"},{"start":7718.311,"end":7740.985,"text":"五年的一個反傾銷稅的一個實施期間那效果應該會再增加因為可能這段時間有一些季節性的因素但長期來看我認為還是會下降好 那再請教一下部長賴總統有說過他拜託工商業要幫員工加薪因為他說加薪會促進消費是一個良性的循環台灣經濟會更好"},{"start":7743.146,"end":7747.289,"text":"那我請教一下因為現在也12月了那我不曉得說我們的國營跟我們的公股銀行明年有加薪的機會嗎這個部分當然會有比如犯公股的他們會去做評估然後公股事業的部分他們也會評估那也跟委員報告我們的國營的銀行"},{"start":7762.652,"end":7790.705,"text":"他的加薪已经跟我们公务员的加薪去脱钩了过往是我们公务员有调多少他们才跟着调那现在事实上是脱钩而是按他们的实际的业务的绩效那才可以鼓励同仁们在脱钩了就是说一般来讲公务员有加薪的话我们的国营银行一定会加薪对不对因为加薪如果说明年没有这个公务员没有调薪水的话那我们这个国营银行的这一个薪水会不会跟着调"},{"start":7792.466,"end":7816.496,"text":"所以他们已经脱钩了也就是说公务员没有调所以我就问说到底明年的国营银行跟饭公股银行会不会调薪这个可能我们目前来说看各银行他们自己饭公股他们会有他们的一套机制比如说台银主营他们也会把他们的调薪输入银行这三家银行自己内部会去先做评估然后会报财政部这样子那有没有机会调薪"},{"start":7817.376,"end":7821.201,"text":"因為12月了如果要不要調薪也是這一個月的事情有沒有報上來目前對於明年的調薪還沒有我說那個三家國營銀行對 我說目前還沒有也還沒有報上來沒有報上來大概是沒有機會了所以也沒有報了等整年執行完成已經12月中了"},{"start":7839.281,"end":7852.352,"text":"要整年執行完成到明年會他們會把整個績效的情況報財政部以後那部長覺得應不應該再挑釁因為總統有說這個企業幫員工挑釁是一個良性的循環可以促進經濟消費那部長的態度呢"},{"start":7855.792,"end":7875.769,"text":"對於我們當然鼓勵我們的企業能對員工加薪讓大家能夠分享經濟成長的一個果實因此在中小企業發展條例裡面我是說除了企業我今天問的是我們的公股銀行那當然我們是支持財政部理事長是支持公股銀行今年的績效好不好"},{"start":7876.527,"end":7893.665,"text":"今年的績效應該不錯應該不錯所以應該是有機會調薪大部分的銀行都比去年有所成長所以如果按照這樣講有績效的話員工應該是要調薪才對我們當然有一套機制根據機制來走最晚哪時候要報上來通常都是幾月"},{"start":7896.303,"end":7915.823,"text":"范工股他的調薪有他公司的機制就不需要報到財政部只有國營的 就台土輸嘛台營土營跟輸營的話會報大概應該都會到一年的中間才會報因為他們要把績效整個做匯價來報明年哪個時候明年大概都幾月我們大概都是幾月"},{"start":7917.389,"end":7940.305,"text":"明年2月就過年了對 跟委員報告純國營是由人事處來主辦不是國庫署我是說明年2月就過年了所以現在要不要調薪甚至有沒有年終獎金都還不知道不過他們明年2月大概應該不至於不會在2月之前報好 那年終獎金現在我們的這個三家國營都還是最高績效還是4.4個月就對了"},{"start":7943.086,"end":7957.532,"text":"4.4那其他公股銀行我看這個去年的今年的年終獎金有最高兆豐應該是最高有到達8個月然後最低也有4.6個月都比這一個三家國營的4.4個月還高對不對是對啊 那我們講就是說這個國營其實你要給它鼓勵"},{"start":7963.294,"end":7988.342,"text":"那重賞之下也有勇夫國營的績效如果也不錯的話其實他的績效獎金就是說年終獎金就不能永遠只停留在4.4個月我們也曾經報院建議能夠調高至少調高4.6個月以上至少你跟其他公股銀行要一樣"},{"start":7989.546,"end":8005.155,"text":"那因為涉及到整個國營事業不是只有我們的金融業還有其他的國營事業那其他國營事業歸其他國營事業因為現在財政部你能管就是三家國營我知道謝謝委員能夠幫我們的國營銀行能夠爭取這樣的那因為涉及到人總那邊整體的一個考量"},{"start":8006.716,"end":8021.007,"text":"所以那你支不支持我們當然支持我們財政部也報函到行政院去有報到行政院去了那目前人總還跟相關的其他的部會機關還在做研討當中我看一下我們三家國營是真的滿可憐的它也沒有伙食費"},{"start":8022.108,"end":8042.215,"text":"然後年終獎金最高就4.4個月然後也沒有員工的酬勞然後員工福利信託也沒有那你跟其他的這一個我們不要跟民營比 就是飯工股銀行比那一樣 國營也不好考那考進來之後發現說其他的飯工股銀行的福利待遇"},{"start":8042.975,"end":8062.454,"text":"比國營還要好以前考進去台銀是很不容易的對啊 考進去台銀也是一種榮譽現在我們又希望說台銀能夠做龍頭可是他的這一個不管他的績效 他的年終或是他的一些待遇等等都比其他泛公共銀行低我覺得這樣對他們來講也不公平"},{"start":8065.475,"end":8086.694,"text":"我想謝謝委員對我們公股對於我們國營銀行的待遇的一個對那這個部分其實我們也財政部也都包含到就去做建議那4.4個月其實要突破的話因為是之前是立法院的做的決議所以我們也希望能夠有所突破那包上去以後目前人事總處那邊在做整體的一個建議"},{"start":8090.437,"end":8116.886,"text":"我們希望能夠4.6個月4.6個月對 恢復到以前的4.6個月那伙食費 員工酬勞 福利信託這個有嗎我們都有這些案子都在我們承報的承報建議事項裡面那麻煩把那個承報資料也給我一份好不好好的 沒問題好 那最後一點時間問一下這個新青安市到明年的7月就入了日那我現在看媒體的報導說我們還有新青安2.0要接續的這一個新青安開始是不是"},{"start":8119.007,"end":8145.178,"text":"還說我們的四大支柱裡面包含年限40年 寬限期5年額度1000萬都不會改變然後只有在貸款的年齡年收入是不是要排付貸款年齡 因為現在沒有限制你六七十歲一樣可以去申請新清安現在也沒有排付所以新清安2.0接續下去是不是如媒體所報的這三個條件都不變除了這個貸款年齡跟年收入會做考量"},{"start":8147.777,"end":8169.253,"text":"有關新青安後面到7月屆滿以後後續的一些相關的一些措施要不要做調整那目前財政部會邀同相關的主管機關大家一起來討論那表示就是說新青安7月落日之後還是會有繼續有這個給年輕人的這個買房子的優惠的利率的貸款就對了"},{"start":8169.913,"end":8194.013,"text":"这个部分都在讨论的范围内我们也会听取各界的意见那至于没有那部长的意思就是说我只问说会不会延续下去是不是还有类似这种新青岸2.0的计划那当然有一些里面的一些条件限制资格可能还要再做讨论是我想委员您提的这些都是我们未来纳入考量的时候都一并来研议的事情因为这个是你们次长讲的"},{"start":8195.475,"end":8206.956,"text":"沒有 那是公股營高層認為公股營高層不是我們市長不是阮市長他有講嗎他就說這個新青安結束之後會有新青安2.0嗎"},{"start":8208.342,"end":8231.482,"text":"不是 我覺得還是跟委員說明所以這個政策會延續下去就對了我們後續會彙整相關的意見以及各界的一些反應我們整體來考量我是說這個政策就是讓年輕人買房有優惠這個政策會再延續下去就對了但是裡面的一些資格條件什麼你會再做討論至於什麼優惠或什麼我們都會聽取大家的一些意見好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝李崑成委員"},{"start":8248.063,"end":8256.954,"text":"好 我們請林思敏召委好 謝謝主席我們請莊部長我們請莊部長農業部的是農糧署副署長 陳副署長好 請陳副署長"},{"start":8263.601,"end":8288.213,"text":"委員好是 部長我想我們今天討論海關進口稅責的這個案子我首先針對我國這個在2002年1月1號我們加入WTO成為第144個會員國距離現在已經23年了在啤酒的進口稅方面因為境外啤酒進口關稅後來就一直降 降到0"},{"start":8289.634,"end":8302.821,"text":"所以我們境外品牌進入本土市場的成本可以說是大幅降低但是我們本土啤酒的製造所需的主要原料麥芽 還有啤酒花卻仍需負擔7.5%到15%的進口關稅"},{"start":8308.724,"end":8335.473,"text":"當然按照WTO的架構各國都可以調降關稅但是卻不能任意提高各國承諾的一個稅率換句話說原料減稅是可行且合乎規定的政策工具之一讓我們的業者國內的業者更具有競爭力所以政府現在做的做法"},{"start":8336.033,"end":8355.773,"text":"你成品9 就進口成品9 關稅是0但是我們進口原料這個稅是7.5%到15%這個根本看起來就是對於我們這些在國外製造在國外完成製造的這些業者給予最大的優惠"},{"start":8356.614,"end":8377.168,"text":"對於本土業者而言造成嚴重的競爭上的不公平所以我們看起來現行的關稅制度根本不是保護本土業者反而是在懲罰我們本土業者所以我們目前這樣的稅制結構部長你認為合理嗎"},{"start":8381.015,"end":8405.629,"text":"謝謝委員那因為委員也有我們召委也有提案所以在我們今天的報告裡面也做了一個詳細的分析包含我們的進口量進口值以及關稅的收入那當然如果這樣跟關稅的調降對我國產業可以產生怎麼樣的一個效益我們也做了分析那是因此在分析我們認為說這些我們麥芽跟那個啤酒花都是進口量我們都是用"},{"start":8406.289,"end":8433.128,"text":"进口的量都97%到86%都是用在我们的啤酒酿造如果我们降低它的关税的话也就是免征这个关税降为0的话确实可以降低我们国产啤酒的生产成本然后提高它的竞争力还有市产的占有率那么有助于它和进口啤酒来做竞争这个是有关在产业面同时对于农业的部分因为它麦芽跟啤酒花跟农业"},{"start":8433.148,"end":8437.07,"text":"會有關係我們也請了農業部的農糧署來表示意見他們認為大麥跟啤酒的話在國內並沒有經濟規模的一個栽培所以調降這樣的一個關稅的稅率他們是沒有意見我們這樣綜合了產業以及以關農業的部門的一個意見認為我們確實可以降低調降這樣的一個關稅讓我們的國產啤酒更具有競爭力同時在稅收的部分我們也做了評估"},{"start":8462.766,"end":8483.961,"text":"雖然關稅減少但是其他的稅收可以淨增加那增加的結果事實上可以會有9000多萬的淨的稅收的收入我們因此這樣的評估以後也支持委員的提案以上財政部的方向是這樣部長我想你分析得已經很清楚但是接下來我想還是問一下農業部的意見副部長"},{"start":8487.643,"end":8513.237,"text":"雖然剛才一直提到說我們對於這個大麥或者啤酒花的生產農業部你的報告指出說我們目前在國內並沒有大規模的一個栽植或者商業化的一個種植產業大部分就是大概這些啤酒花或者麥芽近九成 剛才不少講九成以上都是要去進口所以我們是完全高度依賴進口的一個狀況"},{"start":8514.918,"end":8541.023,"text":"所以在這種情況之下我們降低我們的原料的關稅除了降低用降低的方式我們今天修法說要降低以外農業部 農糧署你有沒有考慮剛才賴會員委員有問到對於我們相關的這些產業就在台灣來栽種這些原料這些產業的一個扶植農業部有沒有做什麼規劃委員 召委好"},{"start":8545.15,"end":8560.798,"text":"剛剛講到關於大麥跟啤酒花這兩個作物它基本上是溫帶的作物那台灣是亞熱帶的氣候所以它國內沒有經濟規模的栽培那好像以大麥為例"},{"start":8562.079,"end":8569.622,"text":"目前的農情調查資料在去年113年度全國的種植面積只有0.4公頃這個是因為它是溫帶的作物那也講到農業部的花蓮區農改廠在花蓮的那邊有試種啤酒花但是那個還在試種階段那我們也會來關心試種的結果再評估"},{"start":8586.91,"end":8592.793,"text":"他是不是可以進一步來做輔導跟推廣那另外我們國內發展農村美酒不管是用台南的這些後壁剛剛講到的米或是像台中的霧峰的一泉香米或是其他的梅子或是包括草莓等我們都會發展台灣本土的農村美酒會做產業的輔導那這個農業部都有在進行是"},{"start":8614.924,"end":8624.349,"text":"當然剛剛你提到說我們也去試圖發展其他的美酒這就是我們針對這一次講的就是針對啤酒這部分當然你剛才提到大部分都要進口然後台灣是溫帶氣候不適合去發展這些大麥或者這些啤酒花的產業的種植"},{"start":8639.256,"end":8662.184,"text":"所以你既然這些原料都是要靠進口農業部有沒有思考如何幫助說我們相關的好像在花蓮花蓮有種植啤酒花所以你既然認為說沒有生產的一個效益你有沒有去要想到說如何的去調整它的一個產業的發展"},{"start":8663.843,"end":8686.893,"text":"是 跟委員報告花蓮的部分它是在市種花蓮區農業改良廠在市種如果以國內譬如它市種的結果我們再評估在國內種少量的啤酒花它發展的是地方的特色不會是用價格來所以花蓮是氣候適宜花蓮你評估它跟委員報告"},{"start":8687.273,"end":8691.056,"text":"他在花蓮的農友曾國啟那邊試種我有去看過其實還要評估因為台灣是亞熱帶氣候溫度比較高一點試種的結果是不是適合我們農業部跟花蓮區農業改良廠會適宜的做調整說送不起來還一直去叫他送這個也滿奇怪的所以這一次降低整個關稅農業部的立場也是同意我們是支持"},{"start":8714.855,"end":8731.6,"text":"OK 好 謝謝我想再請財政部我想財政部剛才部長講了很多數據我們把啤酒主要原料麥芽跟啤酒花的進口關稅把它降成零之後每年稅收減少的金額"},{"start":8732.88,"end":8742.108,"text":"大概我剛才看了一下報告就是不到 合計不到 稅損不到大概少了7435萬這個數字在我們國務庫的整體結構中並不會造成太大的一個衝擊但是我們從反面來看"},{"start":8752.556,"end":8771.569,"text":"因為原料成本過高而導致本土釀酒業者的萎縮投資外移就業減少從而導致我們流失的恐怕不是只有關稅的收入而已而是我們的營所稅 所得稅 地方就業以及我們整個產業鏈的附加價值"},{"start":8772.429,"end":8792.209,"text":"所以付稅署你是否應該評估說我們的點不是在少收多少而是說如果什麼都不做長期會不會我們收得更少所以部長你剛才提到因為如果我們這一次把稅降為零之後我們的稅收反而會增加更多"},{"start":8793.936,"end":8812.034,"text":"謝謝委員也就是剛剛委員所提的如果我們把它降為0那關稅的稅收會減少4735萬但是如同剛剛委員所說的當我們把我們的啤酒市場的競爭力提高以後就就業人口來說也是有所幫助的另外我們也可以提高我們國產"},{"start":8813.175,"end":8820.763,"text":"啤酒的銷售量所以在菸酒稅 營業稅跟盈利事業所得稅其實是會增加的會增加而且會增加到1億6974萬那如果這樣的"},{"start":8825.376,"end":8853.737,"text":"增加跟減少相互來抵充了以後其實是淨增加9500萬的所以稅收是淨增加的所以部長妳認為這一次的修法方向完全是正確的所以基本上財政部支持這樣做完全支持是 支持的農業部要經濟部經濟部呢經濟部也支持吧經濟部那翁市長我們也支持吧都支持啦也是支持啦"},{"start":8855.425,"end":8877.74,"text":"經濟部支持這個也不會影響我們未來就是我國未來加入這個CPTPP或者我們其他自由貿易協定我們加入這些組織也不會受到任何影響會不會受到影響 經濟部會不會這個部分我們都有綜合跑量過都不會啦以上 好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝我們謝謝林思敏 周偉接下來我們請顏寬恆委員"},{"start":8896.742,"end":8906.386,"text":"主席各位列席官員大家早主席有請我們財政部莊部長莊部長委員好部長早部長行政院卓院長他宣布不附屬財化法"},{"start":8922.37,"end":8933.397,"text":"真的是創了憲政的惡例立法院三讀通過裁判法修正行政院提附議遭到否決依照中華民國憲法第72條規定總統應於收到後10日內公佈"},{"start":8938.18,"end":8953.757,"text":"再來依照憲法徵修條文第三條附議時如今全體立法委員二分之一以上決議為此原案行政院長應即接受該決議所以不附屬就是告訴國人執政黨就是獨裁"},{"start":8955.322,"end":8975.241,"text":"我想通過了法律他想通過了他不想通過的法律就不附屬所以這就不認輸了我希望部長你能好好的勸一下我們的卓院長法律人要依法行政尤其是行政院長一定要依法行政回到今天的主題"},{"start":8976.802,"end":8990.127,"text":"我想今天審查關於啤酒業者所需要的進口麥芽及啤酒花關稅調整為免稅的部分這部分應該是我們財政部是認同的 支持"},{"start":8991.426,"end":9017.678,"text":"跟委員報告我們經過各項分析以後不管從進口量還有有關對產業的一個注意以及對於我們國農業的影響等等我們評估以後基本上是支持的我剛剛有聽到其他委員的這個質詢所以大概都知道我想近年來我們都可以看到大陸政府大力的補助他們中國製的啤酒導致台灣製的啤酒市佔率不斷的下降"},{"start":9018.678,"end":9034.634,"text":"那大陸的啤酒可以為什麼大陸啤酒有佔有優勢因為他們有政府補貼嘛政府補貼還有成本優勢還有品牌的一個包裝策略讓市佔率上升到36%我國的本土啤酒業者"},{"start":9036.176,"end":9055.075,"text":"這個造成很大的衝擊其實我們現在大陸製的啤酒很多的品牌現在在台灣到處可見不管是熱炒店便利商店 大排檔這些各大餐廳都有供應這些進口啤酒已經嚴重的影響到我們的一個啤酒市場"},{"start":9056.553,"end":9084.54,"text":"今年第一季進口啤酒就佔了71%或者以上更多都有可能相較之下我國的啤酒市佔率從2018年的59%持續的下滑2023年跌破五成2024年持續下降到47%所以我想請部長你可以預估一下今年整年的啤酒業績它有沒有預估值"},{"start":9085.796,"end":9105.543,"text":"可不可以說明一下啤酒的業績這個部分那應該不在財政部對啦 因為今天是台酒嘛台酒沒有來你說台酒公司是不是台酒公司沒有來董事長沒有來因為沒有辦法來我們請他們在座提供給委員這樣子對於今年整個啤酒的銷售量的部分好"},{"start":9107.504,"end":9118.014,"text":"當然我們還是要宣導就是喝酒不開車那當然喝酒一定要理性是…這個很重要是但是我也知道說你們在7月3號的時候對中國大陸製的啤酒課徵反傾銷稅"},{"start":9123.379,"end":9152.46,"text":"客增反傾銷稅反傾銷稅沒有錯但是不是客稅就沒事不是客稅就沒事主要就是說如何提高它我國本土產業的啤酒市佔率如何提高它的競爭力這個才是重要要從遠處來看是的委員說得很適對因為如果假設這樣子的年年衰退然後我們賣不出去的啤酒都堆在這個倉庫裡面到時候也變成更大的問題"},{"start":9153.48,"end":9173.414,"text":"這個是不行的當然行銷也要加強是部長你再跟這個台酒的董事長溝通一下交流一下你們要理解去理解說我國的這個國產的啤酒遇到的這些困境如何解困如何把這些解決當然就是調降關稅然後我們尤其是原料的部分你們今天這兩項我們一個是麥芽跟一個是啤酒花分別占了90"},{"start":9185.301,"end":9210.069,"text":"90幾% 93跟86是不是7跟86都進口都是做這個都是主要啤酒釀造嘛對不對 那最大宗就是台酒嘛對 我們啤酒是我們也是台酒的非常好的一個優質產品對 所以我想就是說這個部分要加強本土品牌的推廣然後更多的一個產業創新的資源就是要請財政部支持"},{"start":9211.623,"end":9237,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員我們也會督請這個台酒公司依照委員的意思要努力對 我本來今天想要問這個菸酒公司說它對於後續的啤酒行銷推廣有什麼創新跟主打的方向可是今天沒來所以就沒辦法問了我們會請我們董事長到委員辦公室跟委員請議好 謝謝那這個主要就是說部長 那我再請教"},{"start":9239.095,"end":9261.806,"text":"11月初初步的統計光是10月份 單月份我們的實增就4174億創下從86年以來這個單月新高28年來的單月新高主要是受惠於上市櫃股票這個部分日均成交值躍升至6267億那請教部長"},{"start":9267.291,"end":9272.719,"text":"這個你之前有說明有說過明年確定不會超增那你可不可以說明一下現在稅收的情況"},{"start":9274.444,"end":9296.6,"text":"今年的税收的情况全国的税收达到3兆5813亿达成全年度的预算数是94.2%到11月底的实收数那么中央的部分的税收到11月底实征数是2兆6350亿达成全年预算数的94.6%"},{"start":9299.554,"end":9326.117,"text":"大概是到11月底的一个数字是这样那因为114年的我们的税客收入的预算数呢比去年的实征数我们有提高了947亿所以到12月底全年的实收就中央的部分是增加947亿到全年为止我们的税收全年的税收数跟预算数之间大概差距不会超过百分之"},{"start":9327.198,"end":9336.03,"text":"這個部分算差距來說另一年來說是相當的一個接近我們的預算數的對 所以說確定今年不會超增對不對應該是不會超過我們的預算數 對"},{"start":9340.47,"end":9358.297,"text":"其實很多學者批評說政府未能夠精確掌握稅收的走勢但是大幅編列這些特別預算把特別預算常態化這是造成說我們的財政機率衰敗的一個最主要的原因"},{"start":9359.477,"end":9373.643,"text":"那我想所以要請教部長你們未來對於說預算的一個編列特別預算的一個編列這部分你會不會跟我們行政院左院長跟他討論如何來勸他不要再這樣子把這個特別預算常態化"},{"start":9381.701,"end":9401.586,"text":"跟委員報告特別預算跟總預算在預算法裡面它都是合法的那總預算是一般的一個施政每年度的施政的一個支出那特別預算呢是它是分年分年編列而且它是有重大的施政項目的時候可以做編列的那在於也沒有所謂的特別預算的常態化各位跟委員報告譬如說像為了加強國防還有譬如說為了防疫"},{"start":9409.448,"end":9422.472,"text":"譬如說丹納斯颱風以及因應國際情勢的強化韌性這都是因應國家施政重大政事需要或者是防災需要的都是依照法律來編列而且有關債務的控管我們的債務的健全事實上是國際許認可的"},{"start":9428.314,"end":9431.996,"text":"我們整個來說債務控管實際數到目前為止只有34.3%這在國際間是非常低的所以我們會做好我們的債務控管我們會非常重視我們的財政紀律這個部分我想跟委員做這樣的說明也沒有所謂的財政敗壞絕對沒有財政敗壞你要多多的勸一下我們的左院長一定要依法行政"},{"start":9450.74,"end":9466.653,"text":"門都是依法行政沒有公務員可以不依法行政國庫署當然是依法行政啊不附署是依法行政不附署是不附署憲法裡面的規定是這樣子好 謝謝好 謝謝袁匡衡委員好 接下來請羅明財委員"},{"start":9487.099,"end":9512.008,"text":"主席各位 處理的習慣 大家好主席可不可以請莊部長好 請莊部長莊部長妳好是 委員好拆劃法已經一次又一次的確認又通過又修正那現在已經快年底了那究竟拆劃法要怎麼樣定調"},{"start":9513.89,"end":9542.138,"text":"直不直行因為影響到地方他們預算的編列現在有幾個版本可以說是跟孫悟空一樣七十二變變來變去可是最後還是逃不過你的手掌心因為錢是你在控制的那部長現在究竟大家不曉得怎麼無所適從"},{"start":9543.427,"end":9545.118,"text":"究竟現在如果要變要怎麼變"},{"start":9547.12,"end":9551.923,"text":"跟委員沒有所謂的首長型第一個財政部一定是依法行政那麼對於財化法的部分我們一直強調的財化法涉及到各級政府之間財政資源的配合應該要妥善的規劃所以行政院也提出了財化法的修法版本那麼也期待立法院能夠審議大家一起來討論那至於115年我們在編列相關的預算裡面我們是按照去年"},{"start":9575.658,"end":9581.26,"text":"去年立法院12月20號通過的財化法我們已經按照這個來執行那中央統籌分配稅款已經高達8874億8874億這個部分我們都是按照去年通過的財化法已經編列了同時也通知了地方政府所以沒有所謂的"},{"start":9599.978,"end":9622.357,"text":"變來變去不確定的情況所以是照著立法院通過的版本在進行編列按照去年12月20號立法院三讀通過今年總統在3月的時候公布的財化法我們已經編列了115年度的中央統籌分配稅款而且通知了在今年的8月底通知了各地方政府"},{"start":9625.159,"end":9634.925,"text":"請問部長新北市的部分從三年前跟去年通過以後對新北市來說我們的爭取增加了多少"},{"start":9637.25,"end":9647.502,"text":"以中央統籌分配稅款來說新北市114年所獲配的中央統籌分配稅款是550億但是到115年獲配的金額是可以達到969億"},{"start":9657.934,"end":9682.458,"text":"謝謝 所以是有增加增加418億418億 謝謝對 就中央統籌分配稅款來說新北市就增加了418億謝謝所以征服達到76%其實部長 我都沒有什麼太大的意見你只要新北市增加那我回去就對所有的選給我的人我有一個交代"},{"start":9683.476,"end":9705.301,"text":"而且可以大幅改善過去一直講說新北市次人公民那大大的提升當然我們這個希望對地方的資源是越多越好就好像賴總統以前在地方的時候蘇貞昌以前在地方的時候當然都是為地方積極來爭取"},{"start":9706.681,"end":9731.074,"text":"那我們希望說部長剛剛所說的這個既然都已經確定了就趕快不要再變動了我們就趕快來執行 趕快來推動讓民眾他的心是安定的讓民眾可以感受到中央對地方的照顧就好比這一次我們在立法院推了很久的普發現金一萬塊"},{"start":9733.593,"end":9752.362,"text":"記得就一萬塊的事情在這裡大家有很多很多的討論但是現在開始普發現金了以後部長你有接受很多的民調吧直至目前為止我遇到一百個人一百個人都是說讚"},{"start":9754.141,"end":9767.171,"text":"那請教部長這樣一個普發現金的一個做法你們的民調結果怎麼樣還有現在目前來領一萬塊普發現金的比率是多少有沒有人不領"},{"start":9768.384,"end":9777.274,"text":"現在跟委員報告目前已經有87.82%的民眾已經完成領取了大概總數有2069萬人的我們的民眾已經領取了這1萬塊因為我們這一次在規劃上面"},{"start":9786.864,"end":9803.545,"text":"讓有幾種方式四種方式讓民眾都方便領取所以在裡面直接入帳的就有458萬佔22%就直接就進入我們的民眾的帳戶另外可以在網站上面不管你透過手機或電腦就輸入你的帳號"},{"start":9804.486,"end":9808.427,"text":"而且登記錄帳的大概有863萬的民眾已經領取佔了41.69%因為在網路設計上算是方便力的在ATM領取的部分有510萬的民眾是佔了24.64%以及到郵局領取的有233萬的民眾也佔了11.29%所以總共已經超過2000萬的民眾領取目前我們在初步估計還有"},{"start":9833.473,"end":9848.767,"text":"287萬的民眾還沒有領取不過我們也希望他領取不過那個時間可以到明年的4月底那希望大家透過各種方式來領取那我們也讓領取的方式可以更為便利的這樣子是 謝謝我們所以財政部的同仁辛苦了"},{"start":9849.628,"end":9877.009,"text":"為了這個普發現金可以說是大費周章不過我們從剛剛的這個數字比例來看發現國人的消費的情況也改變了網路代替馬路所以速度變得非常快還有一個ATM佔了百分之二十幾我覺得這個也是多多來估所以很顯然就是說直接去郵局領現金的比率剩下十幾個百分比"},{"start":9879.37,"end":9902.268,"text":"表示说民众有这个需求我们还是要提供服务所以在这里要感谢财政部所有相关同仁的努力的付出真的要完成这个不可能的任务而且要安全要平顺有没有因为这次的不发现金造成诈骗的事件出现的"},{"start":9903.932,"end":9928.204,"text":"詐騙的部分其實我們的財經公司事實上普發現金除了財政部是主辦單位還有像是速發部以及金管會很多部位一起合作的才能夠讓它順利那至於在詐騙的部分其實我們財經公司24小時都在網路裡面去搜尋因為他們會透過很接近的那個字比如說G0V這樣子那我們其實已經"},{"start":9929.364,"end":9948.225,"text":"已經有下架打詐的廣告有89則然後詐欺的網站有16組已經把它解析掉了這個部分我們持續的在做而且我們也會告訴所有的詐團們告訴他們不要投機我們是24小時在搜尋有任何狀況一定把它停掉讓民眾不要上當"},{"start":9948.886,"end":9969.08,"text":"所以这个这一次是感觉还不错了就是有成功的主炸就是24小时的这个精神我们在24小时都在做政策我觉得做得好还是要就是大家要讨论一下我们的鼓励跟肯定来鼓励一下那我也希望说经由这次的经验大家比较成熟了"},{"start":9969.881,"end":9989.768,"text":"本席還是主張反正你稅收超徵就是撲發現金給民眾養成一種習慣才不會造成浪費因為過去十年就是稅收都超徵一直超徵十年超徵七八千億結果沒有還給民眾就留在國庫國庫變成各單位"},{"start":9992.609,"end":10008.653,"text":"成為各單位覬覦的對象每個人就開始喊說我衛福部缺啊特別是要最兇的就是國防部國防部這幾年要的錢可以說都是天文數字比如說今年好了今年大概變多少"},{"start":10010.336,"end":10035.581,"text":"国防部的预算预算这个编列因为在足迹总处我手边没有大概我们大概可以看出来那个比例大概是18%最高的还是社福支出国防还不是最高的教育变少了不 教育也没有变教育是第二高第一高的是社福占27%点多然后第二高的是教育还有经济发展都占了比较高的比例我们都希望说"},{"start":10036.771,"end":10065.025,"text":"錢要花在刀口上特別要是鼓勵下一代的年輕人把這些預算多多照顧在下一代年輕的希望你看看我們台灣好不容易有出一個捐贈方黃仁勳所以你想想看這種就是投資是值得的你投資百 上萬 上千萬只要中一個黃仁勳不是全部對國家來講全部都回本了嗎"},{"start":10066.075,"end":10090.012,"text":"所以我們看到最近這個金管會它對於銀行的部分這銀行現在開放銀行可以去投資股票那收益最大的就是八大公股銀行預計我們在銀行裡面加起來的可以使用的金額有多少那財政部會選擇投資什麼項目"},{"start":10092.935,"end":10117.327,"text":"选择银行要投资哪一个部分的一个有关证券这是由银行各银行在这个财务部门他来做评估的财政部不会帮银行去选择他去投资哪一个部位是好 那么希望说能多多鼓励这些银行在操作上要比较灵活一点要向富邦金控看齐"},{"start":10118.967,"end":10145.736,"text":"因為他們的授權他們投資今年EPS大概有十幾塊看一下我們的公股銀行又跟去年一樣最多是一塊多EPS就是兩塊然後大家就覺得很開心自己跟自己的去年前年比有進步就很開心可是出了這個門跟全國的37家銀行比的時候"},{"start":10147.079,"end":10174.301,"text":"我們又變成這個差距變成很大很大所以希望說我們在財政部的相關的同溫層裡面大家討論得很開心的時候也要看看外面的世界是的 我想謝謝委員的鼓勵除了自己公股之外我們也要跟其他的民營銀行一起去做比較我想這個是我們公股行庫會做這個努力的多加油是 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":10175.382,"end":10182.304,"text":"好 謝謝羅明財委員接下來請王世堅委員質詢謝謝主席 我請財政部莊部長好 請莊部長"},{"start":10207.95,"end":10227.935,"text":"委員好部長那個你記不記得我在去年就提過去年我連提了三四次就是說我們國內我們的受險業他們總共到去到前年為止他們餘裕的資金35兆"},{"start":10231.411,"end":10258.225,"text":"結果這些受險業者把70% 25兆拿到海外去買債券基金這有兩大風險一個戰爭 一個匯率結果這兩件事我們都碰到了戰爭碰到俄國戰爭所以他們遲緩給付匯率今年4月在跟美國對談關稅的時候那時候我們匯率被迫台幣大漲一陣子"},{"start":10259.346,"end":10280.378,"text":"那這都對我們台灣是不利的因為畢竟我們是出口為導向的國家所以當時我去年就要求說我們應該把壽險業這些資金把它引進回我們台灣參與我們台灣我們的國家建設這對我們國家才是正面的而且"},{"start":10281.713,"end":10289.451,"text":"行政院長上任第一次行政報告的時候他就說他就說要打造我們台灣成為亞"},{"start":10291.559,"end":10319.881,"text":"州資產管理中心那如果我們要管理其他國家的資產那我們自己70%的錢去給別人管理這不是很怪嗎那當然 結果你們也確實部長你確實很積極去推動我希望你去推動這個建設公債 交通公債跟各部位商量去做這些那除了這些以外我這幾天剛好"},{"start":10320.973,"end":10332.105,"text":"無巧不巧的有聽到幾位這大型的受刑業者他們共同的講法是這樣他說委員我們不是不回來我們現在要回來"},{"start":10333.447,"end":10352.429,"text":"但是碰到財政部要求的是說都只能投入公共建設我是希望說這樣公共建設大家把定義講清楚不一定是政府全部都是政府出資的那個才叫公共建設比方說我們有BOT案"},{"start":10353.47,"end":10380.268,"text":"我們有蔣餐條例我們有促餐法我們有大眾捷運法大眾捷運法這個捷運的聯合開發這些都是正面的嘛這些都廣義的是公共工程公共建設對我們政府是正面的還有我們長照啊還有我們青年住宅社會住宅這些那也不只不僅止於VOT"},{"start":10381.348,"end":10397.51,"text":"BOO啦 ROT啦 OT啦太多這樣子的案子都是會幫助我們整個國家社會建設長足進步所以部長我今天跟你提的意思就是說是不是"},{"start":10399.793,"end":10418.734,"text":"你們要明列正式的明列出正面舉例有哪一些是要讓受險業資金回來哪一些是我們國家政府核准的而且你們要積極主動的跟他們聯繫"},{"start":10420.276,"end":10436.76,"text":"因為他們現在準備好了這一次四月五月踢到鐵板這個匯率的事情然後現在這些業者我們往好處看他們也正是要感受到政府號召他們的誠意"},{"start":10437.284,"end":10449.806,"text":"以及他們對於建設我們自己國內他們應該投入這些來自我們保險戶的資金那這是正確的事情好不好 你能不能做到"},{"start":10451.213,"end":10460.497,"text":"謝謝委員確實是我們希望我們的受寫業資金能夠回我們國內來投資所謂的公共建設那這個公共建設除了促參法還有獎參條例還有其他譬如說大捷法或者是商港法都算是民間投資這個部分我們都把廣義的時候算進來那如果說我們促參法裡面有所謂公共建設的項目"},{"start":10476.923,"end":10499.658,"text":"細則裡面有所謂的細目如果說需要再擴充的話我覺得我們也很歡迎受寫業提出來我們可以在細則裡面把它做更詳細的一個規定另外也跟委員報告除了公共建設之外公共建設方式上有您剛剛所說BOT ROT BO等等都算在我們的促參裡面還有一個它如果不是在所謂的公共建設範圍裡面但是它回來投資是對國內的基礎建設有幫助的"},{"start":10504.341,"end":10512.69,"text":"不見得是政府的而是私人他們要做的譬如說物流中心的話是不是也可以適用相關的我們造源投資方案裡面可這樣做而且金管會會在有關投資相關的一些規定上會給予比較放鬆比較鬆的一個規定那這個部分在我們造源投資方案裡面開會以後都有放寬"},{"start":10527.205,"end":10530.906,"text":"第一個他回來除了公建之外基礎建設的部分不屬於公部門的部分也一樣可以來投資那投資的時候對於有關金融法規對於受險業資金投資的一些相關的一些所謂的一個他要提撥的一些比例準備金的比例那儘管會也都有做彈性的一些調整目的就希望這些資金回台灣來投資我想這個委員這樣的一個建議是我們一直都在努力的方向如果"},{"start":10554.37,"end":10573.217,"text":"還有不足的部分我們也歡迎受選業可以在我們的推動小組裡面有一個行政院的推動小組財政部我們還有另外一個出餐的另外一個推動小組都可以提出建議我們都可以把它放進來在法規的鬆綁還有案源的擴充方面都可以做調整我想這個是一個很好的方向"},{"start":10573.885,"end":10591.991,"text":"好 那我這是難得我們這一年多來你的答詢裡面答得我覺得比較完整正確的你講這些都很正面我希望說更進一步因為金管會我知道他跟你們跟中央銀行"},{"start":10592.791,"end":10613.741,"text":"你們這三者是共同來制定比方說他資金回來的期程總是不能一次回來一次回來這影響到匯率分拿幾次這樣子回來他隨便回來個一兩%一兩個%就兩三千億到五千億三五個%就一兆多了"},{"start":10614.381,"end":10632.335,"text":"那我們是希望他能夠分梯次那這樣子三五千例三五千例這樣回來一年內回來個一兆多這對我們國內是很大的挹注那所以這個部分我為什麼特別跟你提我希望是由你們主動也跟這幾家"},{"start":10633.556,"end":10661.61,"text":"因為比較大型的就這幾家金額最大的大概你們大概都知道哪幾家受險像中信富邦這一些那麼我們恨不得逮住他們讓他們趕快回來所以就正式的跟他們這個洽詢之後跟他們建立一個管道讓他們隨時可以溝通那這樣子就沒有再任何的理由他們不回來好不好"},{"start":10663.006,"end":10683.452,"text":"中安民黨的部分當然我另外質詢會跟他們提他們要列一個期程怎麼樣不影響到對我們台幣這個匯率的影響把它降到最低我們會多聽取這樣的一個意見然後來把它放到兆元投資方案裡面來做落實好 另外一個問題是新青蘭這個不動產聯盟"},{"start":10688.214,"end":10698.437,"text":"上上禮拜的事而已他12月8號發表就是說要批評政府說批評政府這個政策過蕩導致我這個政策殃及無辜害不動產停滯他12月8號提出批評12月10號我們財政部就回應了回應說我們會再推出新青安2.0"},{"start":10712.682,"end":10726.739,"text":"那這時間上我知道可能是巧合時間上可能是巧合可是我們要推出新清安2.0變成財政部已經明說了就是會推新清安2.0但是我就請問第一點我們過去"},{"start":10729.818,"end":10757.59,"text":"旧的清安的这一个部分对于这三无没有年龄限制没有首购限制没有收入限制这个部分我们的改革方法是什么有没有改革没有年收入的限制光是年收400万以上就3000多件就3000多件所以这些改革方法解决了吗解决这三无了吗"},{"start":10759.099,"end":10776.076,"text":"報告新青安的實施期限到明年的7月30那目前來說沒有所謂的新青安2.0但是我們會聽取各界的意見在明年7月底之前後續要怎麼樣處理我們會提出方案那這個部分呢我們在聽取各界意見包含房地產市場的一個趨勢金融市場"},{"start":10778.218,"end":10804.943,"text":"以及民眾的需求以及住宅政策等等都會納入我們考量的一個因素那委員這樣子剛剛對於三項的一些建議要不要納入考量也都是會放進裡面我們會來做評估的那個光是內政部他也持不同的意見內政部他表態他認為新清安會推升房價不宜擴大那這一個他的這個說法就跟我們財政部有所不同所以你認為呢"},{"start":10808.154,"end":10836.009,"text":"他内政部要求的是说不要再配合新兴安加码补贴利息那你们有跟他沟通过吗对于内政部当然他先表达他的意见那我们也还会遵循其他部会的相关的意见以及整体会来做一个政策性的说明到时候我们会在七月底之前一定会再要什么样的推动会来做后续的说明对那个就在三天前"},{"start":10837.499,"end":10858.65,"text":"报纸又说说这个我们财政部认了说是央行打太凶所以税收短缺那这是事实吗不是事实我也从来没有这样表示过我也看到这个标题但是我也仔细看了内部的内容毫无提到说我有说了什么只是标题这样下标题他就这么写"},{"start":10859.41,"end":10885.596,"text":"他就標題這麼寫然後他後面又寫了一個問號我也不知道這個是怎麼加上去的所以沈部長不管他後面是驚嘆號是問號是又驚嘆又問號結論就是說只要有跟我們不理的政策跟你所講過的話有違背甚至完全你沒說的那這會打到其他部會的你一定要跟媒體要求更正好不好"},{"start":10885.956,"end":10894.279,"text":"好的謝謝這個部分我們來加強的是謝謝好謝謝謝謝王世堅委員部長請回接下來我們請黃國昌委員黃國昌委員謝謝主席有請財政部部長請莊部長委員好"},{"start":10915.8,"end":10943.263,"text":"部長好我從來沒有想過台灣走入了民主憲政的災難竟然是因為財政收支劃分法沒有一個民主憲政國家的行政首長可以恣意的說他不執行國會三讀通過的法律"},{"start":10944.844,"end":10972.126,"text":"這是帝制不是民主但是您是財政部部長我今天沒有要跟你討論憲法學的問題我們好好來看一看今天問題的焦點也就是財政收支劃分法民進黨在野的時候2012年黨主席蘇貞昌率領了所有的縣市首長要求修財政收支劃分法"},{"start":10973.373,"end":11001.001,"text":"他說 看到小孩熬熬代普米缸卻空空如也的感受他非常的深刻這是當初2012年民進黨黨主席蘇貞昌說的2015年蔡英文準備競選總統的時候說要修財政收支化分法結果等到了當選整整花了8年"},{"start":11002.645,"end":11028.095,"text":"完全執政財政收治化分法怎麼樣也不肯修去年立法院三讀通過了財政收治化分法之前我們在幾個月的時間請行政院趕快提出版本財政部也好行政院也好甚至包括總統"},{"start":11029.485,"end":11050.204,"text":"不斷的跟社會宣稱舊的財政收支劃分法就是最好的版本我來講一次去年你們說舊的財政收支劃分法就是最好的版本等不到你們的版本立法院在12月"},{"start":11053.086,"end":11076.105,"text":"20號三讀通過了新版的財政收支劃分法這個是去年立法院三讀通過的立法院三讀通過新版的財政收支劃分法以後行政院提出複議被立法院否決了否決完了以後成為正式生效的法律第一個問題"},{"start":11079.861,"end":11093.067,"text":"請問針對明年中央政府總預算給地方政府的是不是依照新版財化法的規定撥補給地方政府包括統籌分配款包括補助款"},{"start":11094.465,"end":11105.653,"text":"跟委員報告第一個我向來的說法是財化法涉及各級政府財源的重分配要審慎的規劃要取得共識所以我從來沒有說但是對於剛剛我必須要做說明那第二個部分對不起請你針對問題回答明年的預算"},{"start":11113.459,"end":11133.324,"text":"是按照新版財化法編的是嗎明年的115年的總預算裡面我們是按照去年12月20號是按照去年12月20號通過的今天3月總統公佈的我們編列的好 非常好我們問答具體明確就好了去年12月20號三讀通過"},{"start":11137.968,"end":11152.313,"text":"復議被否決總統公佈新版的財化法2026年的預算是按照新版的財化法公佈的是嗎是的行政院認為新版的財化法違憲嗎"},{"start":11154.455,"end":11177.51,"text":"我們認為這個部分因為它所造成的一些問題我們有提釋線好先停一下你們雖然停釋線了但是你們還是按照新版的財化法編了明年的預算對嗎我沒有申請試驗沒有申請暫時處分對所以你們還是按照新版的財化法去編明年的預算對嗎是的好"},{"start":11179.319,"end":11204.253,"text":"這個就是非常清楚民主憲政的運作三讀通過你們提復議被否決就按照新法編預算這才是民主法治國家這才是民主法治國家但是我們來看看等到你們挖了地方政府計劃型的補助款以後立法院在今年為了要補這個漏洞"},{"start":11205.816,"end":11223.77,"text":"我們再提出了針對去年新版的財化法不要任意讓中央政府挖掉本來應該要給地方政府補助款的版本後來行政院匆匆忙忙終於提出願版終於提出願版說"},{"start":11226.158,"end":11244.647,"text":"我們給地方的財源提高到新台幣一兆兩千億這是行政院的版本行政院的記者會中央釋出財源比較中央釋出財源比較特別強調最右邊的那一欄給一兆兩千"},{"start":11247.322,"end":11270.314,"text":"給地方政府請問行政院的立場這個行政院院版的裁劃法有沒有違憲行政院院版的裁劃法有沒有違憲我們當然沒有違憲當然沒有違憲嘛我中央政府給地方政府一兆兩千億怎麼會違憲"},{"start":11272.421,"end":11296.63,"text":"非常好的版本啦給的版本比什麼比我們去年給我們比我們去年給地方政府的還多這是你們行政院做的喔委員不是只有這個不好意思喔我問題還沒有講完請你不要插嘴可以嗎我問題還沒有講完請你不要插嘴可以嗎基本的禮貌要有"},{"start":11298.912,"end":11326.053,"text":"話要講清楚要不然一般公民聽不懂現在我完全聽不懂了去年我們所通過的財化法按照行政院自己畫的圖表新版財化法一兆一千多億我們的行政院高喊這個違憲要申請憲法法庭釋憲但是行政院今年提出的財化法"},{"start":11326.966,"end":11347.976,"text":"所有行政院的財劃法比去年在野黨黨團的給的更多一兆兩千億但是我們有考量到分配的公平跟均衡但是不違憲我們有考量分配的公平跟均衡沒有關係違憲不違憲是水平分配的問題嗎不是"},{"start":11350.909,"end":11376.104,"text":"違憲不違憲是水平分配的問題嗎絕對不是憲法裡面要做調計營需你回去看一下你們行政院自己所提出來的主張荒謬自己啊在野黨提出的給一兆一千多億行政院高喊違憲但是行政院今年所主張的願板一兆兩千億合憲啊"},{"start":11377.97,"end":11397.651,"text":"我們比新版的給得更多所以重點是什麼重點根本就不是是不是給一兆一千億還是給一兆兩千億的問題因為我們要跟你討論憲法學憲法學者看了會笑到底要給一兆一千億給一兆兩千億這樣會導致違憲不違憲"},{"start":11401.092,"end":11421.029,"text":"非常可笑沒有關係這個問題明天司法法治委員會會處理但是我們話要說清楚講明白剛剛你說水平分配的公平很重要行政院院版這個一兆兩千億的水平分配試算表出來了嗎"},{"start":11422.662,"end":11440.01,"text":"我们在里面各个指标都有非常详细的我说四算表出来了吗我觉得我们应该要回归到一个可长可久的制度性来考量四算表出来了吗指标都可以拿来讨论对不起请问四算表出来的数字出来了吗过去的财务法的修正这两版也没有任何数字出来"},{"start":11440.37,"end":11467.625,"text":"你們是行政部門耶所有的data在你們手上耶一個財政部部長說水平分配公平很重要有各項指標到今天連試算表都拿不出來是算不出來還是算好放在抽屜裡面不敢拿出來怕算好放在抽屜裡面一拿出來群情花瀾奇怪了行政部門"},{"start":11469.744,"end":11494.85,"text":"提出了新版院版的裁划法水平分配要給各縣市不知道多少數字 不知道所有的data在你們手上你們不是算不出來啊你們不是算不出來啊是算出來了根本不願意交出來所以卓榮泰才會很傲慢的講嘛只要在野黨接受了我們行政院版"},{"start":11496.409,"end":11508.247,"text":"試算數字就出來了那等於是什麼先威脅你先威脅你接受我們的接受我們的你就看得到數字你如果不接受我們的你永遠看不到數字"},{"start":11510.114,"end":11535.056,"text":"多傲慢的行政部門啊多傲慢的行政部門啊沒有關係啊你反正覺得你今天這個財政部部長有卓榮泰撐腰有賴清德撐腰你要在國會裡面用這麼傲慢的神情用這麼傲慢的語氣來回答立法委員諮詢那是你的選擇但是我們在國會殿堂道理要說清楚"},{"start":11536.482,"end":11564.141,"text":"我從一開始執行到現在所有的數字 甚至PPT喔全部都是用你們行政院的全部都是用你們行政院的去年潘孟安在世華法治委員會說什麼說總統一定會公佈法律啊行政院院長一定會附屬啊行政院院長不會 如果沒附屬是在打臉賴清德啊這會造成憲政的災難啊結果呢"},{"start":11566.426,"end":11583.716,"text":"結果今年果然就上演了不附屬不公告不執行沒有關係啊台灣的民主憲政我們會持續的捍衛破壞台灣民主憲政的人未來的責任一定會被追究"},{"start":11588.433,"end":11605.057,"text":"好 部長請回謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接下來我們請洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員 洪孟凱委員不在接下來請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員 何欣淳委員不在接下來請許富奎委員質詢謝謝主席 有請我們莊部長"},{"start":11619.301,"end":11639.714,"text":"委員好部長辛苦部長我想這個財政機率的堅持這是我們這個行政部門應該要遵守的一個原則那面對這樣的一個明年財化法的一個處理上面未來中央跟地方政府的關係上面部長有什麼樣的看法怎麼樣來配合繼續推動我們台灣進步的力量"},{"start":11641.163,"end":11660.211,"text":"呃我們會依照法律行政同時只有財政部立場一定會遵守相關的法律的規定來執行我們的業務對所以我想我們這個該給地方的我們都不會去短掃了哈當然對那我想今天的主題是在於這個呃我們這個呃"},{"start":11662.554,"end":11674.687,"text":"中國啤酒傾銷的一個問題所以我們提出了一個海關進口稅者的一個修法部長我想我上任之後我一直很關心這個中國啤酒大量傾銷的問題那尤其我們鄉下這個甘媽店也好廟會"},{"start":11678.812,"end":11701.069,"text":"大陸啤酒假裝是歐美品牌或日本品牌的情形非常的氾濫非常的嚴重尤其他們在中國大陸官方的支撐補助之下用低價傾銷的策略買三箱送一箱造成我們很多鄉下的地方都當作是喝外國米酒結果不小心喝的是大陸的一個啤酒"},{"start":11702.31,"end":11715.66,"text":"那我們第一時間我們也要求我們財政部相關單位我們進行一個中國啤酒的一個反傾銷的一個調查那也很高興我們這個相關的部會已經有同意啤酒課徵這個19到51%為期5年的一個反傾銷稅"},{"start":11719.423,"end":11736.969,"text":"那從這個進口的數字我們也明顯看到中國啤酒受到這樣的一個反傾銷稅的一個課徵從8月開始連續4個月比同期衰退了將近7成部長那我想這個數字是不是代表我們這樣反傾銷稅已經發揮了一定的作用"},{"start":11737.777,"end":11763.604,"text":"是的但是部長我們有個憂心忡忡的另外一個問題上有政策下有對策那中國大陸他們現在已經把這個生產基地不是從大陸了他們甚至從百威跟雪山的品牌已經出貨從越南在這邊出貨很明顯用一個吸產力的一個模式那尤其我們收集到的一個資料從今年六月開始"},{"start":11764.284,"end":11791.144,"text":"越南進口啤酒的金額跟數量明顯的激增九月份更是一個爆炸性的一個成長金額較去年同期增加了83倍數量增加了62倍截至11月為止越南啤酒進口的金額更是成長了16倍我想這個越南啤酒已經成為我們單月最大進口的一個來源國那面對這樣的一個息產力的疑慮我們財政部有沒有什麼樣一個對策"},{"start":11792.691,"end":11816.701,"text":"跟委員報告只要其他國家有低價傾銷然後造成我們國內產業的一個損害的話那其實根據我們現在的法律都可以課徵反傾銷稅不管是從哪一個國家來這樣子我們對這樣的量以及對產業的一個影響我們也都會關注以及會跟經濟部會來做會持續的關注"},{"start":11817.421,"end":11836.29,"text":"對啦我想這個這個問題不是只有我們幾個委員當時這個一直積極在處理然後才引起我們行政單位的一個重視我想我們平常應該針對這樣的一個進口的進出口的一個數據就應該要有這樣的一個敏銳度啦我不知道我想這應該要持續來做一個監控好不好好謝謝委員是好"},{"start":11836.75,"end":11861.546,"text":"那所以本席針對這樣的一個問題我想我們也提出了一個這個啤酒啤酒花稅跟這個進口的一個免除關稅的一個問題那我想我們財政部也有提出了一個優質酒類的一個認證制度每年編列的將近2000萬那這個對酒類的一個產業能夠發揮一定的作用嗎部長有沒有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":11864.605,"end":11887.049,"text":"委員報告我們這一次對於委員也有提案有關這個降關稅的部分我們基本上是支持跟委員報告對跟委員報告我們當然也做了一些分析包括他的進口量以及對於國內啤酒生產的一個幫助以及對我們國內的農業的影響並沒有這樣的情況下而且在稅收部分事實上是進增加的"},{"start":11887.449,"end":11909.542,"text":"所以我們就支持委員這個部分我們希望我們國內的啤酒產業更具有競爭力那降低它的成本是一個方式之一那這樣子而且對就業人口如果有幫助的話都是正面的效益的首先我們台灣也沒辦法這個做一個種植跟一個釀酒的一個技術啦所以必須仰賴這個高度的一個進口目前進口的單價這個未烘焙的麥芽每公斤的進口成本2.15元"},{"start":11914.825,"end":11940.22,"text":"那啤酒化更是高達31.7元這個稅制成本明顯高於我們的這個競爭的一個生產區所以我想我們提出這個案子真的也希望我們行政部門能夠全力來支持部長可以承諾嗎是的我們支持委員的提案而且況且以我們現在目前我們掌握到的數字我們這沒了啦 沒了錢啦而且還會賺錢啦應該是這樣子啦希望是提高我們國內的競爭力好好謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":11945.694,"end":11962.879,"text":"好謝謝許富奎委員部長請回接下來請黃建豪委員黃建豪委員黃建豪委員不在接下來請黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員不在今日登記發言的委員均與諮詢完畢本次會議做如下的決議"},{"start":11975.934,"end":12001.334,"text":"說明集詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定委員黃珊珊 陳玉珍所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆海關進口稅責部分稅責修正草案等五案"},{"start":12002.762,"end":12014.106,"text":"令則其繼續審查 本次會議程進行完畢 堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢 疑病列入記錄刊登公報 並請議事人員協助處理 現在散會好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166494","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166494","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0d3f27aab44aeba6884d4c72640307d48ab7014e9f0b274623a469af2c92659b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"11:50:48 - 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大家好非常感謝大院安排本局來列席今天的專題報告以下僅就近期台海以及周邊區域安全情勢的變化以及對我國的影響跟各位委員先進報告如此第一部分是有關於台海跟周邊情勢的特點在這部分我們大概提出有四點的分析第一個分析是中共軍事侵擾破壞了台海的現狀"},{"start":2097.048,"end":2116.395,"text":"那從今年年初到目前12月15號為止那中共各型的軍機侵入到我們周邊的空域總共有3570架次創下歷年的新高那另外呢也協同到共軍的艦船執行了有39次的聯合戰備警巡主要的目的在於測試我國的預警跟應對模式並且來檢驗台海戰場的經營"},{"start":2119.096,"end":2133.295,"text":"此外共軍的海警船在每個月都是以4次的頻次來侵入到金門的限制水域進行所謂的編隊巡航那在今年的2月起更不定期的入侵到我們的東沙限制的水域"},{"start":2134.116,"end":2150.116,"text":"我們也注意到在今年的12月6號中共有三艘的公務船宣稱在台海的中線以西的水域進行巡查以及所謂的執法搜救的演練那中共也對外謬稱說這一次的演練是範圍有特別涵蓋到台灣潭"},{"start":2150.817,"end":2164.91,"text":"那經過我們的比對也用一個圖示來跟各位委員做說明跟報告的是那他的一個巡航的一個航線並沒有進入到台灣潭那顯見中共刻意的來混淆海域的位置藉以來炒作中共對台的管轄權"},{"start":2166.567,"end":2182.069,"text":"那在這邊本局進行的第二個判斷是有關於共軍海空的挑釁升高了美日的警戒在今年的五六月份我們看到共軍首度的在西太平洋進行了雙航艦的航訓那期間山東艦的艦載機一度的危險逼近到日本的P3C反潛機"},{"start":2183.21,"end":2198.3,"text":"另外在12月6號遼寧艦的艦載機也在沖繩的東南方的空域兩度的用雷達來鎖定了日本的戰機那隨後中共跟俄國進行了空中聯合的巡航那期間也侵入到南韓跟日本的防空識別區"},{"start":2199.181,"end":2219.218,"text":"那美國為了要反制中俄的軍事擴張特別在12月10號派出B-52戰略轟炸機協同到日本的F-35跟F-15的戰鬥機在日本海來行駛相關的聯合的一個巡航那華盛頓號的航空母艦的編隊也跟日本的秋月號護衛艦在日本東部海域來進行聯訓"},{"start":2221.159,"end":2239.134,"text":"緊接著在12月12號我們看到美國跟日本的防長也進行了電話的會談譴責中共區域迫害了區域的和平穩定所以從以上的發展我們可以看到美國跟日本在同盟架構之下緊密的來進行相關的溝通也快速的展現應對中俄威脅相關的嚇阻能力"},{"start":2240.712,"end":2262.967,"text":"第三個判斷是有關於中共揮帶的擴張引發了南海的緊張那在今年的十月份中共的海警船分別在中葉島鐵線礁的海域用水砲來攻擊菲律賓的公務船那緊接著也在柏礁的海域跟越南發生了海上的對峙十月份的時候中共的軍艦海警船在民主礁海域來實施所謂的戰備警巡驅趕飛國的公務船舶"},{"start":2265.188,"end":2280.162,"text":"那12月的時候又看到了中共在主壁礁對飛國的巡邏機發射所謂的照明彈那在前幾天也特別在所謂的先兵礁附近的海域對菲律賓有24艘的漁船來進行所謂的水爆的攻擊釀成了相關漁民還有漁船的傷亡"},{"start":2281.303,"end":2308.815,"text":"那我們看到美日韓等國家已經先後的跟南海的國家來提供軍用跟警用的艦船協助南海國家建立所謂的MDA也就是所謂海域感知的一個能力那在今年的10月13到14日菲律賓跟美國、加拿大、日本、澳洲、法國等7個國家在南海舉行所謂的SAMA-SAMA-2025其性協力海上聯演來測試各國的戰術操演以及海戰的能力"},{"start":2309.455,"end":2334.82,"text":"另外在12月份美國也跟東協舉行了第二次的海上聯演提升各國海上危機的應處能力本局做的第四個一個觀察和判斷是美盟正在強化第一島鏈的共同防禦的態勢美國的盟友包括加拿大、英國、法國、德國、澳大利亞、紐西蘭已經分別跟日本還有菲律賓簽署了防務合作的協定擴大聯演聯訓提升島鏈的共同嚇阻能力"},{"start":2335.64,"end":2352.116,"text":"那我們也注意到美軍藉由跟日本還有菲律賓的聯演將提風的中程導彈機動的部署到日本的山口縣菲律賓的三苗里市省並且將MASIS的反艦導彈潛推到日本的沖繩 宮古 石垣以及菲律賓的八潭島那日本本身也規劃在"},{"start":2353.297,"end":2378.5,"text":"境內的九州還有北海道的部分來部署島嶼防衛滑翔彈飛國也計畫在呂宋島的西部還有巴拉旺島來部署印度產製的布拉莫斯反艦導彈所以我們看到美盟在第一島鏈的反艦導彈打擊網絡已經成型相關的部署也大幅提升美盟對於第一島鏈重要海域封控的一個能力相關的一個部署狀況請各位委員先進看到部署圖"},{"start":2379.861,"end":2403.228,"text":"好第二部分跟委員說明的是相關的發展所產生的一個影響以及本局的一個評估那這部分我們大概做出兩點的觀察那第二個觀察是印太區域的安全我們發現是高度的連動的那中共透過海空武力強勢的擴權不僅威脅到周邊國家的安全利益也導致了東海台海南海安全情勢緊密的串聯"},{"start":2404.571,"end":2423.385,"text":"美國在最新公布的國家安全戰略當中也把印太地區定位成為是全球競爭的優先戰區並且提出了三項非常重要的原則包括第一 維持關鍵航道的開發第二 強化美國印太潛進部署第三 區域我們應該要來共同分擔相關的防務責任"},{"start":2424.426,"end":2438.894,"text":"那美軍的印太司令部的司令帕帕羅上將也特別強調美國提出這樣子的巨子型的防禦構想第一個重點要務就聚焦在第一島鏈那凸顯美國推出友盟協同來提升防衛能量遏制中共的擴張威脅"},{"start":2440.865,"end":2464.576,"text":"第二台海的核穩受到國際社會的高度關注那我們統計分析發現從今年以來已經有美國日本英國德國法國澳大利亞義大利等19個國家以及北約歐盟G7等多邊的機制多次的公開強調台海和平穩定的重要性也支持維護台海和平穩定的現狀那相關的國家的一個立場以及"},{"start":2465.797,"end":2494.226,"text":"他們表述支持台灣的方式也請各位委員先進參考到副表的地方那針對中共對台的脅迫歐盟德國也分別在今年的八月跟十月份首度的來對外表示台海適用到聯合國憲章禁止使用武力的原則那同時也呼籲中共應該要共同來維護國際和平所以有鑒於台海情勢跟印太還有國際安全的息息相關我們注意到國際友盟挺台的力度正不斷的在攀升當中好最後一部分是有關於捷運"},{"start":2494.966,"end":2522.314,"text":"那台安全攸關到印太以及國際繁榮跟穩定那全球民主友盟也積極的來強化在印太地區的經濟還有安全的部署那透過各種的外交的宣示跟聯合的行動來協助建構第一島鏈的防禦體系共同來反制中共的軍事擴張那本局會機先的來掌握相關中共的軍事動態以及印太地區安全情勢的變化緊密跟我們的國際友盟來進行必要的戰略溝通跟情報交流"},{"start":2522.754,"end":2532.221,"text":"以便來相助政府的決策還有應變的準備提升我國整體的安全韌性跟良能以上的報告敬請各位委員先進不應執教 謝謝接下來請國防部顧部長上台報告"},{"start":2550.734,"end":2575.528,"text":"主席 各位委員先進今天非常榮幸應邀到大院委員會進行專案報告承蒙各位委員對於台海周邊情勢及國軍戰備整備關切與指導再次表達誠摯的謝意面對區域安全情勢變化中共軍力擴張及持續對我軍事威懾等嚴峻挑戰國軍呢"},{"start":2577.764,"end":2601.55,"text":"積極推動新興科技武器籌貨及各項艦軍備戰工作今天應邀致大院委員會針對台海周邊海空域進行潛在軍事衝突熱點情勢分析並針對國軍戰備整備應處執行做法進行專報其實各位委員能夠瞭解中共不斷擴張軍事威脅環境下國軍整備現況持續接續呢有"},{"start":2608.186,"end":2623.307,"text":"作戰及計畫參謀次長 聯支會中將實施台海與周邊潛在軍事衝突熱點分析與國軍戰備應變整備情形專案報告請請各位委員先進指導與支持 謝謝"},{"start":2632.23,"end":2641.405,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家好我是作息室次長 連志威接續由我就台海與周邊潛在軍事衝突熱點情勢分析與國軍戰備應變 整備情形來進行專案報告"},{"start":2646.721,"end":2670.173,"text":"首先當前全球地緣政治依舊交織的衝突與威脅隨著美國政府推出國家安全戰略報告2025明確指出不支持單方面改變台海現狀並鼓勵美盟國家支持台灣提升我國的國防實力以及分擔防禦責任令美國防長以及印太司令等高階將領"},{"start":2671.694,"end":2696.413,"text":"紛紛示警 中共意圖顛覆現行的國際秩序積極進行武力侵台的事前準備面對中共的軍事擴張印太地區國家感受最為深刻為應對不穩定的局勢發展各國持續強化多邊軍事協議與防衛能力本部亦嚴密監控中共對台軍事行動的關鍵預警徵喉"},{"start":2698.394,"end":2712.759,"text":"評估當前敵軍動態以及未來可能行動的模式爭取早期的預警 迅速處置 妥善應對抵觸然由訓轉眼 由演轉戰的企圖接續進行區域情勢分析的報告"},{"start":2714.059,"end":2737.01,"text":"中美雙邊的戰略競爭關係北韓擁核的政策以及飛彈的試射以及台海 東海 南海主權爭議與東南亞國家的邊境衝突等摩擦事件使印太區域的緊張與競爭不斷升溫均可能引發區域的衝突整體的態勢處在不穩定的狀態"},{"start":2738.373,"end":2761.004,"text":"美國為應處印太區域的突發狀況適時調整印太的兵力部署並集中軍事資源協助友盟來提升軍事實力同時運用澳英美的安全夥伴協議與美日印澳四方安全對話等多邊主義策略強化友盟的抗中力量"},{"start":2761.994,"end":2778.281,"text":"令中共透過帶入倡議與東協國家推進了區域全面經濟夥伴協定等舉措且深化與俄羅斯北韓等國家的戰略夥伴關係企圖擴大國家戰略利益並主導區域的事務"},{"start":2779.42,"end":2787.895,"text":"此外 中共從未放棄武力併吞台灣持續強化跨軍兵種的訓練從單純的軍事演習轉向常態多兵種的實戰化演練"},{"start":2792.315,"end":2813.461,"text":"有關共軍活動的藥礦以及潛在的衝突熱點分析如此首先在東海的海域共軍在2025年的4月在浙江外海開設了進航區執行多管火箭的實彈射擊演練模擬對我的關鍵基礎設施重要港口等目標進行打擊"},{"start":2814.588,"end":2836.819,"text":"另外常態派遣海警船跟軍艦在釣魚台周邊海域的巡邏在今年5月發生海警的艦載直升機進入了日本領空提高雙方的衝突風險透過軍事演習及灰色地帶襲擾的策略企圖管控東海提高了與日韓等周邊國家衝突的風險"},{"start":2838.342,"end":2853.441,"text":"第二個部分在西太平洋共軍不定期的派遣戰機從事跨島鏈遠海飛訊以及跟監外籍機的活動並發生與日本自衛隊軍機對視的情況提高擦槍走火的風險"},{"start":2854.562,"end":2873.899,"text":"另外每年平均一至兩次與俄羅斯的艦 機從事聯合戰略行航任務以及今年6月 遼寧號 山東號兩航艦編隊首次同時進入西太平洋從事雙航艦訓練 增加赴西太平洋的頻次以及規模"},{"start":2875.66,"end":2900.057,"text":"另外中共的各戰區海軍平均每年從事四至六次跨島鏈的長航訓練今年二月南戰的長航編隊不僅侵入非國的經濟水域並且繞行了澳紐兩國臨接的海域從事實彈射擊藉著訓練的民意的軍事行動前推其海空力量提高了中美潛在衝突的風險"},{"start":2901.431,"end":2921.238,"text":"接著報告的是在南海的海域運用軍艦、海警船以及民兵在民主礁、仁愛暗殺、先兵暗殺等海域對非國的補給船以及海警船從事近距離的攔截、高壓水砲等行動阻止非國從事補給以及逼迫其放棄該據點"},{"start":2922.935,"end":2933.765,"text":"令今年共機向飛國巡邏機發射照明彈的事件以揮帶作戰來壓迫菲律賓不僅嚴重影響飛行安全更製造南海的緊張情勢"},{"start":2935.356,"end":2960.009,"text":"第二個部分是以海上民兵妙博於爭議島礁的附近影響他國的漁業以及海底資源的探勘活動令持續強化其島礁的軍事以及基礎設施的建設其中是包含了跑道 機庫 防空反艦飛彈以及雷達電子戰的設施將對美盟國家 航經南海海域構成長期的威脅"},{"start":2961.17,"end":2989.108,"text":"並藉常態的摩擦事件迫使菲律賓等周邊國家長期處於高強度的應對狀態消耗其軍事資源意圖對南海實質的控制提高潛在衝突的風險第四個部分 則是在台海周邊的海域中共海警船不定期於外離島進至水域從事編隊巡邏並施放空飄氣球或是以無人機對我周邊實施情搜"},{"start":2989.989,"end":3008.529,"text":"另外運用名船以及全輿輪關閉辨識的AIS系統或是切換不同的移動通信識別碼等方式偽冒規避查緝並以拋放苗鏈的拖曳的方式破壞我連外海底的電纜造成我國通訊短暫異常"},{"start":3009.884,"end":3028.195,"text":"旨在擴大灰色地帶的洗腦意圖擾亂政府以及民生的運作並且打擊軍民士氣來逐步加大對台的威脅 恫嚇另外 共軍常態派遣海空兵力逾越中線赴我周邊執行所謂戰備警巡以及聯合戰備警巡"},{"start":3030.92,"end":3043.198,"text":"頻次 數量逐年上升不僅以實際的軍事行動壓迫台灣且結合灰色地帶洗腦的手段加大對台的威懾力度提高台海周邊衝突的風險"},{"start":3045.826,"end":3067.865,"text":"綜合以上 共軍頻繁派遣機艦 公務船在我周邊的海空域從事戰備警巡 無人機的侵擾以及預約禁線至水域等手段對台進行灰色地帶的侵擾以及軍事壓迫亦藉由軍事演訓及派遣航艦編隊赴西太平洋長航"},{"start":3068.886,"end":3083.767,"text":"中共持續軍事擴張對台威懾力度未曾減緩甚至外溢影響區域安全穩定更使台海及區域衝突熱點日益升溫第三個部分報告的是國軍的戰備應變 整備執行的做法"},{"start":3087.576,"end":3104.805,"text":"國軍秉持以備戰達必戰的目標持續強化戰備整備積極應處共軍各種襲擾的行動以及軍事威懾確保我國領土安全與區域穩定面對中共常態化的灰色地帶襲擾國軍的具體作為說明如後"},{"start":3107.466,"end":3133.187,"text":"首先是在聯合勤奸爭的部分整合各勤奸爭的系統運用多重情資手段傳遞情資至國軍聯合作戰指揮中心以建立共同作戰圖像掌握周邊共軍的活動第二個部分是持續與國安會國安局等跨部會綿密的情資共享並運用定期有盟情資交流的機制掌握敵情威脅與戰略關鍵預警的徵喉"},{"start":3135.868,"end":3152.653,"text":"第二個部分是國軍的應處作為首先平時依照敵關鍵預警的徵喉在突發狀況處置規定當中訂定各項敵情威脅的模式襲擾的類型以妥適派遣海空兵力來實施應處以利突發狀況的處置"},{"start":3154.674,"end":3179.323,"text":"第二個部分當中共宣告對台海周邊進行複合式軍事行動時則一令開設國軍應變中心來指導作戰層級完成加強戒備的戰備兵力規劃並視敵情威脅發展的程度提升戰備等級包含二級或一級的加強戒備並執行立即備彈操演以指導三軍部隊執行應變任務預防共軍遊演轉戰的威脅"},{"start":3182.904,"end":3193.44,"text":"第三個部分則是若敵突然發起攻擊則各部隊不帶命令實施分散式管制在去中心化的運作指導下遂行作戰任務"},{"start":3194.707,"end":3218.778,"text":"第三 面對中共日益增強的揮帶侵擾與挑釁國軍規劃在明年實施電腦輔助指揮所演習及立即備戰操演等科目全聯會採階段演習全面驗證的方式逐步依照作戰節奏來確保戰略作戰及戰術層級單位均能手忍部隊指揮戰鬥程序以達平戰轉換的作戰目標以確保任務的達成"},{"start":3224.793,"end":3253.401,"text":"第四 為建立維護台海和平的實力國軍課陣積極強化備戰整備朝向建構不對稱作戰能力強化防衛韌性提升後備戰力以及後值灰色地帶應處能力的四大建軍規劃方向也積極地建置台灣之盾防衛能力不對稱作戰的無人載具徵收反制武力來展現自我防衛的決心以達到嚇阻戰爭發生的目的"},{"start":3254.221,"end":3269.696,"text":"最後感謝大院各位委員的指導面對共軍各項軍事威懾行動國軍持續規劃籌購各式新式的武器裝備因此能夠通過強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例以及後續預算的獲得"},{"start":3273.619,"end":3287.323,"text":"對於台灣建立可視戰力至關重要可指部隊具備高戰備能力的目標進而有效嚇阻共軍犯台的意圖以確保國家安全以上報告 敬請各位委員宣敬支持與指導 謝謝謝謝我們補充介紹徐巧欣委員羅美玲委員"},{"start":3296.786,"end":3323.165,"text":"我們現在先確認議事錄請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有那我們議事錄確定現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台諮詢"},{"start":3332.065,"end":3334.149,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長羅緣豪"},{"start":3343.281,"end":3368.874,"text":"部長早安 部長今天我聽了國安局跟國防部的這兩份專案報告真的是非常明確的說明了共軍在台海周邊還有東海 南海還有在海空的挑釁跟灰色地帶的侵擾所以也造成了印太地區的緊張今天早上本席也看到就是說國防部有發布了一個黑白的照片也就是說在昨天的時候"},{"start":3369.955,"end":3388.295,"text":"今年才服役的福建號第一次經過台灣海峽請問他們這次的這個舉動有什麼異常的地方嗎我們有在監控嗎請問這個部分我想我們有全程的監控我們發布的照片也顯示"},{"start":3389.476,"end":3416.481,"text":"上面並沒有建載機那我們預判他是應該要回到上海的長興島去做他的再就進一步就做相關的一些缺改所以目前的觀察是如此是因為今年才做服務我們在想說他這個舉動到底代表了什麼的什麼意義那這部分到目前為止觀察到的是只是說他只是要回到上海"},{"start":3417.401,"end":3442.492,"text":"就這樣子沒有任何的軍事的舉動就是了目前的觀察沒有目前的觀察沒有面對中共的挑釁也好或者是說在灰色地帶的侵擾面對這種不穩定的局勢其實各國都有一個共識就是必須要來強化自我防衛的能力可是我們先來看看日本好了"},{"start":3447.194,"end":3457.945,"text":"日本政府它現在在推動防衛力準備計畫預計在2026年度的時候這防衛費就要提高到大概是9兆日元大概是新台幣1.8億兆元那是創歷史的新高而且他們會提前兩年實現國防支出佔國內生產毛額2%的目標"},{"start":3465.693,"end":3483.527,"text":"北約的會員國在今年6月也承諾將國防開支比重增加到GDP的5%到2035年的時候GDP的3.5%會用在核心的軍費另外1.5%會用在基礎設施等比較廣泛的安全相關的領域可是我們看看台灣"},{"start":3484.668,"end":3507.561,"text":"那台灣呢由國防部提出並經行政院通過的今年就是分年八年編列的1.25兆的強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰略計畫採購的特別條例草案到昨天為止呢已經被在野黨三度的阻擋在程序委員會連一讀的這個機會都沒有"},{"start":3510.603,"end":3537.262,"text":"然後要到委員會裡面做實質審查的機會也不給在野黨口口聲聲說我們必須要透明我們有疑慮可是進入委員會審實質審查充分討論而且審查的時候我們都還有直播這應該是最透明的方式可是非常的遺憾昨天第三度在程序委員會被惡意的阻擋跟杯葛"},{"start":3540.484,"end":3546.13,"text":"在野黨真的是無視中國在過去20年來的共軍增加了將近7倍的這個軍費用來擴充這個軍備可是卻是扯我們自己國家的這個後退那本席的現代程序委員會真的是非常非常的"},{"start":3560.784,"end":3585.763,"text":"這個氣氛 因為他一再的杯葛 一再的風刷真的是 我們可以說是慶祝難輸喔那再來呢 不只這樣子 再也擋出了杯葛我們這個特別條例之外呢而且呢 對外呢 都是他的論述其實都是在帶了一些風向 比如說誇大年度的這預算 他指控說明年的國防度 國防的預算呢將高達2.2兆元可是呢 這1.2兆其實是分8年"},{"start":3589.265,"end":3617.455,"text":"來做編列實際上我們的國防預算其實我們是編列了9495億元可是他卻是要帶風向硬是把這1.2兆列入就是加在這明年的國防預算裡面還有他有質疑就是說特別預算對社福教育的資會造成排擠這部分我可能拜託待會國防部要來解釋一下到底這特別預算對社福對教育會不會造成這個排擠"},{"start":3618.155,"end":3638.562,"text":"那再來還有就是我們就不知道要買什麼啊不知道買什麼那就到委員會來做審查嘛那可以國防部我想可以問讓他們問到報我想請問一下到底我們這個明年度的是我們這8年的這個1.2兆元的這個特別條例編列下去的話真的會對社福跟教育支出造成排擠嗎請問部長"},{"start":3640.132,"end":3660.297,"text":"我想我們的特別預算應該是分八年來編列那這裡面也提到了他的來源就是用這個歷年來稅積剩餘以及這個舉債來支應那另外也要受到這個財政距離法的一個約束所以我想"},{"start":3661.721,"end":3684.677,"text":"不會造成有排擠的一個效果就是完全不會造成排擠嘛那再來我想請教就叫1.25兆其實我們原定是要採購長射程的飛彈無人機機動雷達等不對稱的這個戰略那被這個在野黨一再的這個封殺那我們整個建制期程一定會延大然後造成國家會有一個怎麼樣的影響呢國家安全"},{"start":3685.997,"end":3714.535,"text":"我想我們可以看到美國的這個NSS就是美國的國家安全戰略它裡面最近根據這個美國戰爭部次長Elbridge Colby他所講的他認為就是說這個美國國家安全戰略就是代表美國回歸實力及聚焦盟友的責任為核心的一個國家安全戰略"},{"start":3715.546,"end":3728.671,"text":"那麼對台灣而言美國仍然是台海為核心的利益也就是台海的和平穩定線上是美國的核心利益但他從此強調台灣自身防衛能力成為能否有效嚇阻"},{"start":3730.612,"end":3745.518,"text":"的一個關鍵前提所以我想台灣的自我防衛能力的一個提升來跟各有盟國家包括剛剛委員提到了日本也大幅的提高國防預算大家"},{"start":3747.031,"end":3763.391,"text":"一起齊心建立一個協同嚇阻那麼以實力達成有效嚇阻以嚇阻達成和平我想這個是我們作為這個第一島鏈的前緣所我們應該要承擔的一個責任跟義務"},{"start":3764.958,"end":3792.223,"text":"是 我看其他的這個國家對於自己國家的自我防衛的這個能力說實話大家不管朝野都是一致來贊成那我昨天一而再再二再而三在程序委員會遇到這個我們這些特別條例也好或者是說我們的預算一再的被阻礙一再的被杯葛覺得說這是怎麼一回事為什麼就算是朝野可能有一些意見的"},{"start":3793.663,"end":3820.157,"text":"可是國家自我保衛能力的提升保衛自己的國家這是一個正常的心態我們看到就是說在程序委員會一再的被阻擋真覺得是居心叵測所以就覺得說我今天必須在委員會這邊來提出昨天我們已經連續三個禮拜在程序委員會被阻擋的這個現象也必須讓大家知道到底這些在野黨的委員到底是怎麼了"},{"start":3821.157,"end":3829.662,"text":"保衛自己的國家不是應該的嗎提升自己自我防衛的能力不是就應該的嗎那台灣有自我防衛的能力在這個第一島案來講就像國防部長剛才所講的我們有這個責任我們是其中的一份子我們有這個責任怎麼會一再的阻擋呢進入委員會裡面去做實際審查其實是最透明的一種方式"},{"start":3847.172,"end":3862.963,"text":"連討論都不討論我們多少法案是連討論都不討論不是敬附二讀表決通過不然就完全阻擋在程序委員會擺在程序委員會連審都不讓你有機會審真的是非常糟糕的一件事情再來115年度的總預算到現在為止也是一樣"},{"start":3867.626,"end":3890.587,"text":"好 到現在為止一樣 蔡院長提出這個復議那再來有很多的計畫那很多的採購案訓練也可能會受到這個影響我請部長再說明一下如果是說我們115年度的這種預算延宕的話會造成哪些影響我們要做的很多事情就沒辦法做我想很多的新增計畫應該沒有辦法執行"},{"start":3893.19,"end":3917.832,"text":"這說明一下好嗎我也好我是主席局局長有關於115年如果總預算沒辦法審議的話其中國防部的部分編列了5614億其中我們會受到影響的部分我們初步估算大概是660億其中屬於軍頭新政案的部分就有79個案子86億那其他的是屬於作業維持費跟軍事投資案"},{"start":3919.553,"end":3931.625,"text":"較114年度增加的額度這按照預算法跟主席總署的規範說這部分是要列為管制的就是執行數不可以超過114年度的預算數額這部分大概有570多億加總起來大概超過660億"},{"start":3933.166,"end":3958.024,"text":"那這裡面很大一部分大概有400多億是屬於後勤準備的零附件跟保修以及彈藥的一個籌購還有一部分是屬於裝備的採購大概有150億另外還有一部分是委員所關切的部隊的訓練大概有20幾億的部分是會被作為一個管制的一個額度所以整個預算來講目前我們初步盤估會受影響的程度如上面所報 以上"},{"start":3959.005,"end":3985.653,"text":"所以不管是說好像跟國防有關的這些預算其實都會受到嚴重的影響尤其是對於新興事業的這個部分可能連做都沒有辦法做如果這個預算一再的不整合的話會變成這樣子嗎真的在這裡要再次呼籲我們真的是在野黨我們國家台灣就只有一個保護自己的國家是我們所有人的責任在這裡真的是再次呼籲大家應該是一致向外 一致團結 謝謝好 謝偉"},{"start":3996.979,"end":4000.06,"text":"謝謝接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們是不是有請顧立雄顧部長抱歉請顧部長徐委員好部長好"},{"start":4023.823,"end":4046.505,"text":"那今天的專案報告裡面有提到幾次喔在國軍的這個準備情形上面呢資訊通訊的重要性那所以我想無論是資通或是資安對於國防國安來說都是非常重要的這一個禮拜以來呢那陸續國防部有不少那得標廠商被認為有各式各樣的問題那禮拜一的時候這個顧立雄部長您也提出的回應喔"},{"start":4047.225,"end":4070.291,"text":"那時候您所說的事情是呢這個只要廠商有合法的設立證明納稅證明從事國際貿易或者他們的相關資格就可以投標不需要去管這個公司叫什麼名字資本額是多少那因為呢這個設定一定的資本額也不一定會讓他履約那今天我有一個案子想要跟您做一個討論就是真的是如此嗎"},{"start":4071.472,"end":4083.023,"text":"部長 請問您有了解這個資本額10萬元的紅樟茶行標到國防部兩個案子分別的狀況如何嗎第一個 它是不是屬於機敏性的案子我想 我先這邊先說明一下就是說我們"},{"start":4092.273,"end":4111.603,"text":"查到的大概是有從111年開始的是鴻章茶葉公司的那麼委員所問到的可能是在另外一家公司的名稱叫做軍沒有我問的就是茶行"},{"start":4112.583,"end":4127.732,"text":"如果您問的是查航的這個案子的話那就是111年有兩個案子由海軍的佐資部所辦理的一個資訊設備維護的案子這是一個這是第一個案子這是一個一般的"},{"start":4128.752,"end":4157.563,"text":"老物的你上面本採購是否具有敏感性或國安疑慮之業務採購你勾的是是耶然後呢本採購是否屬於涉及國家安全採購你勾的也是是耶這個是不是請包委員基本上我們只要是國防部採購的品項我們在那邊會勾是那對啊那就代表說他有你都勾是了代表他還是有一定程度的這個要求嘛但實際上還是要看個案的性質所以你認為不是"},{"start":4159.415,"end":4183.804,"text":"你认为他没有涉及你认为这两个案子他有两个案子111年的然后还有呢最新的一个应该是114年对然后最近的12月这两个案子上面勾的打勾的都是属于机敏性的案子然后关于涉及国家安全采购也打勾是那您刚说的很清楚了那是因为这是国防部的案子就是因为他是国防部的案子我们才会这么的重视"},{"start":4184.304,"end":4200.48,"text":"好所以呢我想既然這個上面白紙黑字詢問了就至少對於我今天作為投標方來說那我是不是我今天是投標方來說我是不是在相關的標案上看到的就是屬於敏感性或國安就是屬於涉及國家安全相關的採購是吧"},{"start":4201.881,"end":4226.894,"text":"跟委員報告他凡是要進入我們相關的營區的話就我的了解都是要做治安的沒有錯沒有錯所以他需要有一定的他就跟一般就是比如說我今天可能在什麼其他的資訊的服務所以他要進入到營區所以是這個因為進入到營區所以他對於進入在進來的人我們要做對他做人員的"},{"start":4227.814,"end":4249.751,"text":"當然當然我們要對他做人員的調查對不對好 那我問一下喔那個部長你有沒有看過這個查行的負責人他對外說明的相關影片了不然我先問一下你有看過這個查行的負責人我沒有特別注意好 那我給您看一下好不好因為我覺得這個呢其實滿重要的來 我們播一下影片你們才10萬的資本可以做這麼大的生意會不會覺得很誇張"},{"start":4250.472,"end":4266.048,"text":"我覺得蠻勵志的政府標案大概有拿下幾件五六件有啦五六件包括這一次的對啊就是加起來這樣子後來就也不找那個住店的啦因為住店要再請人什麼的觀念麻煩我們都是找那種維護就是他如果有報休我們就過去這樣子"},{"start":4266.809,"end":4292.274,"text":"那妳這邊說妳有資訊工程背景可不可以拿出妳的學歷證明太突然了啦可是妳是什麼大學畢業我數德科技大學數科大對資訊管理系的是學士還是碩士學士而已學士嗯盤下這個茶葉行之前跟黃君先生就認識了這邊是蠻關鍵等一下我會再問她也是有資訊背景的對啊她該不會是同學同校的沒有啦她跟我差10歲她比你大10歲她大概幾歲的人啊"},{"start":4292.594,"end":4308.916,"text":"他大我10歲我現在30歲他40歲你們是因為有資訊背景才認識的然後他後來把這個盤給你但是現在就是你用紅障的這個名字去標國防部的案子其實你們沒有合作關係單純就是你這邊跟你另外一個夥伴"},{"start":4309.617,"end":4325.381,"text":"就是我們就是工程師會討論我們就兩個人而已啦所以他完全都跟他有關就對了是有些事情會跟他請教對啊因為他真的就不是事業夥伴這樣子事業夥伴喔我之前有聘他當員工幫我跑過對幫我跑過幾個維修的點對但是他就是"},{"start":4329.642,"end":4348.062,"text":"就是工讀生工讀生喔部分這樣子她要做妳的工讀生沒有啦就是因為我們就是用工讀生的時間上時速算對啊就但是就是不是正式員工不然妳論見記仇的對她就不是因為畢竟她來幫我工作她說因為來工作要保老保所以就不把她聘為正式的員工"},{"start":4348.743,"end":4365.098,"text":"好 我就是給您看一下這一段而已第一個我從這個投影片裡面看到幾個問題想要逐一跟部長您來請教首先呢這位負責人他有提到國防部在開標的時候他連開標都沒有去國防部打電話通知他標到了"},{"start":4366.198,"end":4387.928,"text":"開標當日確實廠商沒有義務一定要到場可是這個涉及機敏性的標案在公開場合說出跟國防部的互動這樣的鑑別能力是否代表了我們從結果上看來這個查行得標的兩岸是有疑慮的再來 您可能不知道在社群軟體上面他自己承認自己是人頭我想您可能不知道這件事情這是怎麼講的呢這個"},{"start":4391.076,"end":4404.68,"text":"其實還有另外一張啦反正總是他說反正我只是人頭應該也沒事吧沒有我也沒差吧不管今天他這個是諷刺自己他可能是他諷刺自己他說反正不管怎麼說都會有人說我是人頭啊頭砍下來給你們好了"},{"start":4406.601,"end":4433.84,"text":"他可能是諷刺自己但是無論他是陳述事實或是諷刺自己我相信他茶葉做得很好也很用心但今天如果我們的標案是什麼茶葉的禮盒年節禮品我一點意見都沒有但涉及到我們的資通訊的安全能夠在社群平台上面寫出就是跟國防部的這個互動嗎比如22小時之前我們跟國防部的人說了我們也可以廢標啊等等之類的"},{"start":4434.601,"end":4443.259,"text":"這些都是顯示出了這個茶行他在這樣子的一個資訊安全的標案上面他其實不具敏感性的再來他還說"},{"start":4444.943,"end":4474.087,"text":"他還會做很多事情除了賣茶葉之外學音樂路跑攀岩潛水熱炒店物流會計行銷還會織毛線這些東西都跟這個他所標到的案件一點關係都沒有那不斷的這樣子發言的過程只會讓大家覺得那這個茶行到底是因為這個老闆他有其專業還是他背後有人那我們看一下他其實在裡面有講到因為他大概有十分多鐘我沒有時間這樣一一去講"},{"start":4474.727,"end":4491.059,"text":"他的意思是說他們有兩個人那對方也不是他的員工但是他們看到標案呢就會去標標看他的原文是說好像可以標標看所以對於標到國防部的案子自己都不相信只跟一個所謂工程師到底是誰我們也不知道"},{"start":4491.539,"end":4510.649,"text":"在沒有股東沒有合夥人沒有實際員工的情況下他說公開說的他們兩個人賺請問我們是如何評估投票標準是否適宜不應該是不是只看對方的表面否則如果今天這個公司他洩密我們對這個公司完全沒有了解那對方是直接可以跑路的啊"},{"start":4511.149,"end":4521.496,"text":"那我想請問一下部長您剛看了這個負責人的影片之後您對於這個查行他所標到我們的兩項的資訊資安的維護案你覺得合宜嗎報告委員基本上我們是看廠商的資格那至於說他這個負責人他剛剛所講的裡面並不代表這個成為這個購案是不是成立的這個佐證因為我們是看廠商的資格"},{"start":4540.649,"end":4543.45,"text":"你去看廠商的資格對不對我下一個就要問你必須要再補充的這個案子海軍司令部有確認因為它這是一個系統的維護它不是機敏專案那它系統維護都會把基本上那你們不是說他們也要進營區了嗎來我繼續問"},{"start":4558.577,"end":4576.987,"text":"這個小姐的說法公司只有兩個人她本人在做茶葉很忙所以他們是用臨時工而且他們沒有駐點的工程師是為了要省錢他們承包的案子叫做有人報休之後再找工讀生去請問類似這樣子約聘工讀生的狀況合適做你們剛剛所說的資安相關的委運嗎"},{"start":4580.084,"end":4597.766,"text":"這個基本上所有的作業人員我們依據國軍的規定他不管找誰跟誰合作他進營區都必須要經過他提供名單提供這個施工人員名單我們國防部會做人員查核查核同意了那你們查核到黃鴻鈞先生有沒有進過營區了嗎"},{"start":4601.449,"end":4607.373,"text":"這個要問實際的這個來 我剛剛講工讀生是什麼樣的人來干擾我剛剛講嘛他說他會找工讀生去幫忙去維護嘛這個工讀生所謂維護資訊安全就是他原本的負責人實際上過往真的有以資訊公司叫做軍威科技的黃鴻鈞來做投標的"},{"start":4621.405,"end":4638.115,"text":"可是這個黃宏鈞的軍威科技因為涉及三起三起偽造廠商資格投標包含上面很清楚他投標立法院被發現有問題被拒絕給付然後呢提告韓國瑜院長輸掉官司法務部也告他詐欺判刑確定"},{"start":4638.735,"end":4667.567,"text":"在這個事情之後軍威科技照理來說這個黃鴻鈞他要被列為黑名單結果他利用所謂查行盤給這個林姓負責人30歲年輕女生我覺得他敢出來面對媒體我也給他肯定但是呢一下子是說兩個人沒關係一下說聘用黃鴻鈞先生作為工讀生那等於你把前負責人回聘進來又說是技術上的資源甚至投標的地址是在黃鴻鈞先生的外公家"},{"start":4668.527,"end":4671.79,"text":"所以我想要請問一下那這個案子到底是黃鴻鈞在飆還是林小姐在飆啊跟委員報告一下第一個這個您講的那一家這個軍威公司它被停權的這個是從108年的5月24號到111年的5月23號那軍威公司從來沒有參與本部跟所屬單位的飆案"},{"start":4692.768,"end":4715.102,"text":"那關於你講的這個紅樟茶行呢他是在111年11月22號來決標的當時也沒有有任何這一個紅樟茶行被停權那你講的那個軍威公司他的停權的時間點也是在事實上是在108年的5月24號到111年的5月23號"},{"start":4718.644,"end":4746.572,"text":"那另外再跟委員報告因為這是一個150萬元以下為公告金額以下的一個採購案件所以我想他們這個部分如果按照這個規定採購法的49條的規定吧它是屬於這一個公開取得三家以上的廠商的素面的企劃書的然後則符合需要者就辦理筆價或溢價的這個程序"},{"start":4747.072,"end":4747.734,"text":"都是完全依照公開"},{"start":4750.489,"end":4772.637,"text":"但全部都是依照政府採購法的相關規定來辦我當然知道你們會說用政府採購法的相關規定來辦嘛但是我要講的事情就是說今天這個查行他來標這個案子他是不是掛羊頭賣狗肉你們自己可以看一下這個相關的判決113年度那跟立法院之間的告訴關係還有呢所謂的這個被這個法務部去提告的"},{"start":4777.099,"end":4801.824,"text":"那還有他們過程當中他們剛剛所自己陳述提出的跟他們在做維修維護的方式我要問的是不是你們當時說我當初我在開標的時候他們有沒有按照這個資料有沒有來然後給你審核完我問的是結果就是說從這個結果上來看他們用第一個取消駐點人員因為要省錢第二個把一家錢"},{"start":4804.544,"end":4832.35,"text":"這個資訊公司也就是黃紅軍的公司然後呢把他拿過來請他當工讀生進到我們的營區裡面來做維修第三個只是為了不要讓他保老保增加所謂的公司的開支再來呢這個他們登記的投標的所謂的投標他登記的地址是黃紅軍的外公家這些事情當時是事前有做過查核事後我們回頭追溯這件事情的時候你們覺得他這樣子做合理合法嗎"},{"start":4834.482,"end":4846.108,"text":"二委員您剛剛講的他有一些投標遭受到一些刑罰的問題跟這個案子沒有關係他是軍威公司我知道嘛我說所以就是因為他出了問題之後所以這個查行然後呢他就呢我呢就把你聘用為你不要來投標用我本來的公司我把我本來的公司過給你林小姐"},{"start":4857.794,"end":4867.182,"text":"讓你林小姐去投標林小姐得標之後那還是我黃鴻鈞來做但是呢我又不想要讓我的名字在裡面出現所以呢我就用工讀生的名義來負責這個維運他們的形式狀況就是這樣啊"},{"start":4871.307,"end":4891.453,"text":"我想就鴻章公司來講它的營業項目也就是有資訊軟體的這一個相關的服務業的這樣子的營業項目那您提到的那個111年的海軍組織部的案子是一個80萬的一個預算金額我都講的是茶行63萬9998元那這個也都已經經過驗收合格已經結案了"},{"start":4899.415,"end":4923.225,"text":"對 所以我在說你們的驗收你們的所謂的合格你們的結案你們知道他沒有設駐點人員嗎你們知道他取消駐點人員是為了他自己說是為了要省錢嗎你們知道他們公司裡面是派工讀生去給你維修嗎他沒有告訴你這件事情嗎你們知道嗎這個合約啊 據我們了解他是要完成這個系統的維護並沒有要求廠商要駐點"},{"start":4924.748,"end":4934.398,"text":"他本來有做註點的人員嘛但是呢他這個標德案子之後他就覺得好像也不需要了所以呢為了要省錢多賺一點他說他跟另外一個工程師他們想要兩個人賺這個錢嘛那不管怎麼樣我們是以合約執行期間那這個案子並沒有要求他註點至於說委員剛剛講他在標德之前他有註點那這個我們待會要查證"},{"start":4947.031,"end":4963.786,"text":"那再來就是說你所謂的用工讀生這件事情是為了規避投保他剛剛講了他為什麼要請工讀生去做維運而不是有一個固定的人專業的人去做然後呢是要用工讀生而且這個工讀生就是另外一家科技公司的老闆來做這件事情他講說不然我要幫他去保勞保"},{"start":4964.807,"end":4990.229,"text":"那我們的廠商國防部的廠商弄成這個樣子你覺得很合宜嗎你請不能以工讀生來判定他能不能這個執行不是你沒有聽懂我的意思他說他請工讀生的原因是因為他不想幫人家保勞保所以用這個方式可以節省他公司的開支那像這樣子的一個廠商這個部分屬於勞資雙方對於就是說"},{"start":4992.791,"end":4996.332,"text":"你們在給他標案的時候或許你可以告訴我們說你可以告訴我們說當時我們不知道可是現在這個事情已經公佈出來他都這麼陳述了那請問你們有沒有要處理有沒有要去查核嘛我問的是這個問題嘛這應該跟呂業的事項沒有關聯嘛"},{"start":5011.81,"end":5037.91,"text":"你認為這樣OK以後大家來標我們的來標我們的案子裡面然後呢他標了之後他自己的勞資關係然後他去用所謂的去把前一個公司的然後呢他有這個黑資料的然後把他聘來用工讀生然後不要保勞保給他然後用這種方式來維護我們國家的資安你們都覺得很合理你們都覺得在這個事情爆發之後他自己也出來坦承這件事情之後查也不用查就讓他這樣過去下一次再繼續標給他是嗎"},{"start":5039.992,"end":5064.458,"text":"委員我想我們就合約來論合約那合約的履行我們有沒有符合在招標的時候符合政務採購法相關規定履約的過程我們有沒有確實讓他進行一個履約然後履約完畢之後我們來進行那個驗收結案這個才是重點至於其他的我想很多這個勞務之間的他"},{"start":5067.519,"end":5079.583,"text":"勞資之間勞資之間他有任何相關的一個糾紛就我們甲方的立場當然這個有相關的部會可以來處理那我們作為甲方立場我們就是盡量把這個合約完進行完成你們要處理嗎我先前你們在做那個營造的時候然後裡面有抓到這個非法移工的你們也會去處理你們也不是說那是這個營造商跟這個移工的事情不關我們國防部的事情"},{"start":5093.568,"end":5111.597,"text":"怎麼到了這個事情上面就變成是他們自己勞資糾紛的事呢然後你也要我們會請相關部會去了解我要再強調一次你像海軍內岸好了當時也有其他的資訊公司來飆那你們在資訊公司跟查航之間你們不猶豫的選擇了讓查航來做這樣子的一個資訊資安委員啊"},{"start":5114.779,"end":5120.604,"text":"我們沒有不由於因為剛剛已經講過了就是依照這個未達150萬的金額那他有相關的資格那我們就根據這個溢價他們比價的結果來進行這樣子的一個對 這就是一個問題因為你們只單看比價你們沒有想要嘗試去了解說這家公司他的這個營運狀況他裡面有沒有一些問題像比如說他"},{"start":5139.54,"end":5154.411,"text":"他只有一個人然後呢沒有員工這件事你們事前知道嗎你們事前知道這家茶行來做我們的60萬100萬的維運資安維運裡面沒有其他員工嗎只有一個很忙的茶行的老闆娘你們知道嗎"},{"start":5155.091,"end":5160.855,"text":"包委員因為這是一個公開招標我們不知道包委員請聽我說包委員因為這是一個公開招標我們不會知道等一下開標的時候哪些廠商會來那但是我們開標的時候我們是針對廠商的這個資格來查那至於說開標之前我不知道紅章來我第一個我不知道紅章會來第二個我不知道紅章查他的這個裡面的這個他的成員是怎麼樣我們是以廠商資格為"},{"start":5182.609,"end":5190.172,"text":"是啊 但是你到時候進到營區的時候你們不都說會填他們的相關資料了嗎所以我剛剛問說黃鴻鈞先生有沒有進到營區裡面去幫你們做相關的服務嗎有沒有嘛有 那你也知道有啊那你前面跟我講這麼多你為什麼不剛剛跟我說有呢所以我剛剛問說"},{"start":5202.197,"end":5223.377,"text":"剛剛問黃鴻章的時候黃鴻鈞對不起黃鴻鈞的時候為什麼你不跟我說有有就好呢實際上就是你們就知道這個黃鴻鈞先生他以公獨身的名義然後到了營區裡面去做這個資訊維護但是他先前就是鴻鈞科技鴻鈞公司老闆然後呢他把他原本的公司給了這個林小姐讓林小姐去標標完之後實際上在做的還是他自己"},{"start":5223.737,"end":5241.95,"text":"包委員真的我們開標的時候我們不會知道他過去這個負責人有更換怎麼樣的但是我們以現在你投標是誰哪個公司名義哪個負責人哪個這個他的公司的資格合不合規定那至於他過往你剛剛已經重複過我時間不夠你這個長話短說好不好請用書面回答已經超過10分鐘了好不好"},{"start":5247.754,"end":5264.878,"text":"拜託今天既然人家已經都把事情講出來了裡面有很多可能違反勞基法可能違反相關的一些法律或者是可能跟他當初投標的時候跟你們講的不一樣的地方都應該要好好的去做相關的查核可以嗎好 謝謝謝謝許曉金委員的質詢下面請馬文君委員質詢"},{"start":5293.593,"end":5299.997,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局長 國防部長我請蔡局長 顧部長請局長首先"},{"start":5311.127,"end":5328.038,"text":"兩位早 局長首先我們在今天的報告裡面有特別提到就是說在這個美日飛他的聯演有將那個提風的這個中程導彈部署到日本的山口線對不對局長我是"},{"start":5331.949,"end":5348.275,"text":"對 跟委員說明一下剛剛在那個專報口報過程當中有特別提到颱風飛彈不過它這個飛彈是它在演訓的時候它才會部署到委員關切的南溪諸島的部分平時並沒有部署在這個地方但一旦有在危機發生或演訓的時候所以它現在還在不在"},{"start":5348.575,"end":5351.697,"text":"現在不在已經不在了只是因為這個報導讓我們看起來會覺得說好像他還部署在那裡所以其實我們希望你在提供報告的或者說明的時候必須很明確因為這樣子會誤導我們所有的安全防衛的這樣子的一個概念那因為在最近大家都可以看得到不管是東海台海"},{"start":5373.174,"end":5381.737,"text":"還有南海其實都發生比較可能激烈的一些狀況那我們也看到大陸對日本的軍演因為我們從上一次培洛西來台以後其實我們的壓力其實限縮的越來越大那也像現在周邊的區域其實也面臨到這樣的影響那我們現在對這樣的演習用比較簡單的方式可不可以提出來"},{"start":5402.329,"end":5404.252,"text":"因為剛剛有提到說美國對我們還是非常重視像台灣的地理地位在第一島鏈然後可是說台灣在最新的國家安全戰略裡面它的重要性也明顯的上升"},{"start":5419.133,"end":5422.494,"text":"可是美國卻把過去反對任何單方面改變台海現狀的表述把它改成不支持任何單方面改變台海現狀這個部分我想就剛剛提到的整體的狀況還有現在的一個狀況我們國安局延期的意見到底是什麼"},{"start":5440.959,"end":5467.254,"text":"大概跟委員簡單報告說明一下就因為中共在海空的武力的擴張近期確實是動作比較多那引起了包括美國跟友盟的高度關注簡單的說明 延續這個部分好 第一個部分就是在美國這些公開的戰略文件當中大概都表達了對於第一島鏈安全的一個關注 第一部分第二部分是在串聯區域友盟應該要投注更多的一個國防資源來提升防衛的力量"},{"start":5467.614,"end":5487.18,"text":"那這也是剛剛在報告時候提到美國印太戰略裡面有三個重要的支柱一個就是確保相關海域通道的暢通一個就是區友盟分擔防衛的責任第三個就是美國進行必要的前進部署所以整體的趨勢態勢大概是出現美盟有點在遏制中國的軍事擴張的這樣的一個基本的圖像"},{"start":5487.85,"end":5491.633,"text":"看起來局長剛剛說明似乎是這樣可是我們看到他現實的舉動並不是這樣做我們看到有很多過去包括航母艦隊包括他們的戰鬥機他們那時候在關島或者現在的中程導彈的一個相關的部署其實都是往後退而且都是退出"},{"start":5508.626,"end":5512.828,"text":"這樣第一島鏈的一個狀況就是過去跟現在其實你可能跟他比較的時間的長短我們現在要的是比較現實面的到底對我們會造成什麼樣的影響剛剛提出來似乎還是覺得說我們有受到他們還是有強化然後我們可能還是在這一方面其實還是可以跟郵盟還是可以信任美國可是我們看到的事實上的一個具體的狀況好像不是這樣"},{"start":5538.641,"end":5542.803,"text":"那接下來就我們目前區域的緊張態勢因為如果照這樣說它跟以前過去沒有太大的改變我們現在的很多的舉措或者我們現在對外的一個發表的一些相關的言論包括國防部還有包括我們現在想要提升的這樣的一個國防預算似乎都是不太融合的它是背道而馳"},{"start":5567.978,"end":5570.419,"text":"所以我在這裡先請教一下我們部長好了因為國防部近日對外有提到如果共軍突然行動國軍將採取所謂的去中心化的指揮然後不帶命令即可作戰我想要先請教一個基礎的問題國防部所稱的去中心化指揮它具體是指什麼"},{"start":5592.061,"end":5608.499,"text":"我想他要跟這個然後他 我把他問完他的制度依據跟適用的層級為何這個部長可以說明一下嗎是 我想我們的主要的重點都在於要讓各層級的部隊都要知道他上級給"},{"start":5609.6,"end":5635.662,"text":"賦予的任務所以這叫做一個任務室指揮的概念那麼他在這樣子的一個遂行他所必須被託物的任務的情況之下他要能夠進行這個就算沒有一個中心的一個給他的一個指揮的情況之下他仍然能夠遂行他的任務所以這是一個任務室指揮去中心化指管的一個概念"},{"start":5638.44,"end":5645.548,"text":"所以他要應對各種的可能的一些狀況來做相對應的應變處置所以我再請教部長剛剛您說他大概的狀況那是什麼樣的層級他是一個什麼樣的層級可以去做這樣的一個事"},{"start":5662.146,"end":5666.988,"text":"這個您講的是指狀況還是講成績如果成績不管是戰略 作戰 戰術都必須要大家都清楚自己的哪一個成績 我確認一個前提因為漢光演習跟學界其實這些都有討論過去中心化或者任務室的指揮"},{"start":5686.775,"end":5690.696,"text":"可是這些是不是都建立在戰爭狀態已經成立然後任務已經下達的前提之下是不是我想從灰色地帶的洗澡灰色地帶的洗澡也包含在如何應處的範圍之內那我們會將灰色地帶洗澡分成低中高的強度他要隨時要應對這樣子的一個"},{"start":5711.101,"end":5714.704,"text":"我們先回答一個就好因為灰色洗腦是你們說的那大家不知道啊包括你的所有的作戰的這些軍事官兵他們的成績他們沒有辦法很明確的知道請告訴我們"},{"start":5729.278,"end":5738.486,"text":"如果像剛剛去中心化或者任務是去中心化的任務是指揮這個是不是在建立在戰爭狀態已經成立而且任務已經下達的這個前提之下是或不是如果委員問的是這一段的話這一段所講的當然是在於突然發起攻擊的這個前提之下"},{"start":5751.897,"end":5775.036,"text":"但是在灰色地帶的這個應出上面我想要請部長明確的回答像去中心化這樣的指揮體系是指戰爭已經成立是或不是我們在睡醒防衛作戰的時候會更強調沒有 是或不是啦我們會更強調這樣的任務是指揮跟去中心化的指管"},{"start":5776.137,"end":5792.838,"text":"所以是在戰爭已經成立了嗎就已經是拉動戰爭因為戰爭開始之後我們的這個所謂的去中心化這個觀念要被強調的原因是因為共軍對我們的進行所謂的第一級的時候我們確實是比較有可能面臨這個狀況"},{"start":5794.724,"end":5817.577,"text":"你說說我們展開第一集還是共軍共軍展開第一集所以這個已經是戰爭成立嘛就您的說法應該是要更在戰爭發起的時候就被打到第一集的情況之下我們更要強調這樣子的一個任務所以已經是戰爭成立的情況之下嘛你就已經被第一集已經受到攻擊不能夠排除灰色地帶的洗腦也有面對"},{"start":5820.859,"end":5823.921,"text":"這個土花狀況的一個處置的一個問題部長因為這些論述從來都不是用來授權基層單位因為你剛剛講的灰色洗澡或者什麼樣的一個狀況漢光演習或者其他學界早就有在討論這些然後也有類似的任務指揮"},{"start":5841.448,"end":5842.97,"text":"他並不是沒有這個指揮體系啦可是我們現在剛剛講的這些都從來沒有用在授權基層單位自行判斷是否進入戰爭狀態對不對"},{"start":5857.702,"end":5875.419,"text":"由基層單位去判斷說這個是不是進入戰爭狀態因為你說進入戰爭狀態以後你才會有去中心化這個問題那現在剛剛已經是明確這樣子那這樣子我們也沒有授權基層去判斷是不是戰爭狀態 對不對"},{"start":5877.748,"end":5894.279,"text":"我們應該如果委員講所謂戰爭狀態我不太確定說你講是指一個全面戰爭我們現在在這裡比較著重在於他受到軍事攻擊的狀態軍事攻擊就是已經進入狀態他當面就受到軍事攻擊嘛"},{"start":5895.997,"end":5920.485,"text":"這樣子很不清楚因為你們沒有授權基層去判斷戰爭狀態我想要請教是或不是是或不是基層可不可以去判斷是不是戰爭狀態我們之所以要強調這個也是因為我們所面對的威脅它所存在的狀態並不必然一定是在準戰爭狀態下的灰色地帶那你講一個具體的"},{"start":5923.986,"end":5944.092,"text":"我們的基層可以自行判斷是不是可以講一個具體的因為你現在已經分析過很多我們就是因為這個威脅存在所以才在平時的時候就要訓練我們的基層官兵理解到這些狀況之下的時候它可能存在哪一種狀態你講一個具體的嘛比方說此時此刻"},{"start":5945.168,"end":5970.833,"text":"共軍正在對我們做聯合戰備警訊如果我們等到這些狀態在瞬間由訓轉演 由演轉戰基層官兵還要等到我們中央再來給他指揮的時候那恐怕會來不及那所以我們在平常的時候就應該要訓練我們的基層的主官具備這樣的知識還有這樣的能力來面對共軍這樣子快速轉變的這個敵情變化謝謝"},{"start":5973.76,"end":5979.361,"text":"那你過去花了這麼多錢你未來還要花很多錢建立的這些連戰指揮系統或者你的情資因為只有為什麼我們要建立這些系統他就是因為你才能夠掌握全盤今天如果只有一個單純的基層他看到這個狀況比如說像之前日本的那個那個戰鬥機被鎖定的時候他有可能被打的時候那他可不可以這個"},{"start":6003.166,"end":6008.747,"text":"你們到現在我想簡單的跟委員我就幾句話我們強調去中心化就是說就是不管是軍事戰略層級或者是作戰層級或者戰術層級都在區中區分中心化的指揮跟分散式的管制跟去中心化的執行就要讓各級確實了解上一指揮官他的企圖那麼透過任務室指揮授權及責任區的賦予我們結合了交戰規則授權任務部隊因地制宜"},{"start":6032.873,"end":6036.404,"text":"要來果斷的遂行他應該互解他的一個任務"},{"start":6037.93,"end":6046.754,"text":"部長 這樣子我想基層分不出來你們剛剛講的基層可能也分不出來我們要透過不斷的演練來加以驗證這些各基層的部隊那個不是演練的問題那是你在做決策的時候為什麼我們要有這樣的一個中心化的指揮那你要去中心化 那個可以可是你必須要很具體我先請教一下局長好了在共軍突然行動的時候比如說他強電池干擾"},{"start":6066.804,"end":6087.848,"text":"他通聯不穩的情況之下國安局是否能保證我們的勤資可以及時完整的送達到第一線作戰單位作戰單位的情報的指揮跟分享可能還是國防部這邊那我們這邊主要是基於國安的層級的情報那會在高層決策的時候把這個整體的態勢做一個分析"},{"start":6089.136,"end":6094.22,"text":"所以他有可能這是國防部負責的嘛 對不對他的情資你判斷他的在強電池干擾或者通聯不穩的情況之下他是不是有辦法把情資完整的送到第一線的作戰單位回答是或不是我想國防部對於通訊任性的部分應該有他的相關整備計畫由國防部來說明會比較詳細一點"},{"start":6114.522,"end":6120.345,"text":"我們現在在講的是情資因為國安局對於情資是最清楚的我會突然不是突然我特別請教國安局是因為在極端的情況之下沒有辦法保證及時到位所以我們問的是非常關鍵的問題在沒有獲得上級確認敵情成立的命令之前基層是否被授權啟動武力行動"},{"start":6144.927,"end":6168.499,"text":"這個部分由國防部來回答好了在沒有獲得上級確認敵情成立的命令之前曾幾是否被授權啟動武力行動我們的基層跟委員報告如果委員一定要這樣區分的話我們可以分成兩個第一個就是我們還沒有遭受到真實的攻擊第二個是我們遭受到真實的攻擊委員意思是要問這一段嗎"},{"start":6169.798,"end":6184.703,"text":"那如果我们遭受到我们遭受到真实的攻击那个攻击状态已经形成了所以你说是战争状态那我们在攻击的状态形成之后我们当然要设想最坏的状况有可能我们的中心的指挥的体系"},{"start":6186.087,"end":6201.493,"text":"被斷掉啊所以我們現在想的就是一個最壞的scenario那如果至於是還沒有發生真實戰爭的狀態我們剛剛已經講我們會透過立即備戰操演二級這樣接杯 一級這樣接杯這個當然在還沒有受到攻擊的情況之下"},{"start":6202.173,"end":6219.79,"text":"當然我們的中心的指揮還存在我要的答案就是你剛剛一直在說明的所以不管他是不是由基層已經去在訊號中斷的情況之下訊息中斷或者指揮體系中斷的情況之下他可以自行去做判斷先決條件是已經發生戰爭"},{"start":6222.813,"end":6239.65,"text":"你的意思是這樣嗎對 已經被攻擊嘛所以因為我們為什麼今天要特別提出來我們在看看到國防部對外說可以去中心化的時候這個國軍快速反應的必要性而且離這個是非常重要的啦他在因為沒有辦法"},{"start":6240.811,"end":6247.755,"text":"去達到一個整體的指揮體系的時候它這個快速反應是很重要可是我們要釐清一個關鍵的界限就是哪些決策可以下放哪些決策絕對不可以下放去中心化這個軍事上它確實存在"},{"start":6259.781,"end":6272.206,"text":"可是他只是用在戰爭狀態因為我們看出來看起來你在對外發表的時候好像在非戰爭狀態他如果受到什麼樣的攻擊他可以自行去也自己可以發動這樣的攻擊"},{"start":6274.636,"end":6296.785,"text":"所以你明確的是說在戰爭狀態發生以後嘛對不對我想我們都是一個防衛作戰我們會進行所進行都是一個自衛決定形式部長 這個非常重要是當國防部對外使用去中心化並且搭配不符合命令即可作戰的這個說法的時候層級被混用了因為我們想要釐清的是這一點一旦"},{"start":6303.988,"end":6308.551,"text":"他的責任會被模糊掉一旦情資不完整或者通聯中斷最終可能把本來應該由國家承擔的風險國家才可以去做這樣子的決策判斷的時候你把他轉嫁到基層的官兵身上所以我們才會討論在不在這個不是戰術的細節喔我們一直在確保戰爭判斷是到底是哪一個層級到底是在怎麼樣的一個界線底下去做的"},{"start":6334.028,"end":6341.524,"text":"所以你在對外說這個去中心化的時候必須要讓這個很清楚明白所以剛剛部長提到的就是已經戰爭發生了嘛這個我們想要明確這一點 是不是"},{"start":6346.561,"end":6350.064,"text":"我剛剛已經提到了就是說就是戰爭已經發生啦就是戰爭已經發生所以我們的基層可以自行去做判斷因為部長這個很重要你只要回答是或不是你的去中心化的說辭是這樣嗎我們在報告裡面已經提到是當遭受到突然發起攻擊的時候"},{"start":6366.959,"end":6372.163,"text":"對 所以您剛剛我剛剛已經說明很清楚了在去中心化指揮的這種情況之下的前提當然是他在"},{"start":6379.076,"end":6384.4,"text":"攻擊的狀態之下的一個是比較應該是會發生的這樣可能的狀況最糟糕的情況會發生這樣的狀況因為你剛剛已經說明了就是戰爭啟動的一個狀態之下因為戰爭啟動是國家發生的這個對於後續追究責任的時候萬一有戰爭罪或其他的罪行的時候是很重要的所以不要把它推給基層的官兵"},{"start":6406.175,"end":6411.957,"text":"去中心化他就是在戰爭已經發生以後這是有國家層級必須要去承擔這樣子的一個責任跟風險我們今天要特別詢問的是這個那剛剛我也聽到呃有呃我們徐小新委員提到的這個問題齁我們再把它點出來這個不是合約的問題今天如果我們為什麼要分軍網跟民網為什麼我們有內網跟外網今天他的他的那個"},{"start":6434.384,"end":6456.966,"text":"招标金额虽然很低可是如果他随便的一个人就是他们所谓不管你要不要用工读生去定义他随便一个人可以进到营区我们为什么要花大钱去设警监系统我们为什么要花大钱去买我们所有的无人机的监侦系统为什么我们要严格的设军网"},{"start":6458.928,"end":6463.19,"text":"花大錢在我們的資訊上面或者我們的電展示上面我們所有的全部都是要保護這個結果你因為他一個小案就是因為小案所以你不注意你不注意這個人就可以趁虛而入如果他想要攻擊他想要做駭客他想要有什麼其他的我們沒有讓他趁虛而入部長我們在提供服務的時候我們都會有人在那邊"},{"start":6484.58,"end":6489.183,"text":"然後呢我們當然也會做安全查核全程在那邊監控然後維護營區的安全跟他秘密的所在不會去嗎部長這幾天來你們一直都是在講這一個部分如果這樣子可以的話我剛剛提到的那些預算你都不用花你只要你在做什麼的時候旁邊有人看著就好這是我剛剛要特別提出來的這是兩件部長"},{"start":6513.759,"end":6519.261,"text":"那個不是兩件事到現在你還不知道它的重要性為什麼我們要做軍網跟民網的區隔你今天不管你海軍或者其他的他只要連上網他都可能可以做什麼樣的手腳"},{"start":6531.565,"end":6546.677,"text":"你們如果還要再解釋的是合約的內容或者那個對象一點都沒有把重點放在這裡如果是這樣好像你們也不需要太多的預算你現在有提到的是資安的部分資安的部分我們當然也會做查核啊這個要不要請同事再跟你"},{"start":6551.721,"end":6579.281,"text":"委員好 因為只要是涉及到資通設備的我們有訂辦一個國軍委外辦理資通系統服務的所有資安管控 軍網的網路是不是都可以連結除了非常機敏 軍網是不是可以連結如果我是一個高手我想要從裡面拿取資料會不會困難所以所以 國安局長國安局長回答這一題如果我們的軍網我們為什麼要做區隔如果有一個"},{"start":6580.482,"end":6588.586,"text":"高手他想要有什麼樣的情資他有沒有辦法從這裡去獲取有沒有辦法高手我們有沒有辦法有沒有辦法是有辦法但是只要是有我們要的是這個答案如果你今天有一個人在旁邊看著"},{"start":6598.493,"end":6602.495,"text":"都會有人看著那以後不要編預算了你在這樣的預算底下你根本不需要你只要旁邊有人看著你不需要再花大錢百億 十億這樣的預算去做這樣的治安的管控如果是這樣被害不用到現場"},{"start":6619.824,"end":6622.627,"text":"今天為什麼我們不然我跟你講一個重要的概念今天我們營區進去為什麼要管制我如果有一個工作生我現在隨便一個人因為你如果是一個有信用的一個公司可以讓我們可以隨時追蹤的"},{"start":6639.261,"end":6643.904,"text":"那你當然會有一個對象你比較好管控嘛這是我們軍方跟其他的行政部會或者其他單位不同的地方今天你們一直今天也這樣照昨天也這樣照大家在乎的並不是你的合約是不是合法而是說你在軍方的管制本來就是比較重要的你的錢越少他越容易讓人家趁虛而入因為你覺得不重要所以我就可以進來"},{"start":6668.998,"end":6675.782,"text":"趁虛而入 部長謝謝謝謝馬委員請先回座接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":6700.237,"end":6728.465,"text":"有請國安局蔡局長跟顧部長兩位請蔡局長還有顧部長兩位長官早今天有些問題要向大家請益首先就是國安局講的提到了美國的國家安全戰略國防部也提到了"},{"start":6730.216,"end":6750.765,"text":"美国的国家安全战略是哪一年开始有的我向大家做说明1986年高尼法案那么日本的国家安全战略2013年第一个版本出来然后到了2015年安保法"},{"start":6751.741,"end":6773.841,"text":"集体自卫法然后2022年安保三法那么高市早苗在上任以后原本是2027年要推出新版本他现在决定2026年就要推出那么我们都是看别人的国家安全战略来定位我自己的核心利益我觉得这个非常不妥本席已经在过去的10年间"},{"start":6775.339,"end":6796.48,"text":"重复的向我们的政府长官提议尤其是国安国防国家安全战略不是军事战略军事战略是赢得胜利战争的胜利国家安全战略是赢得和平如果我们自己没有一个对自己的核心价值去读人家的国安战略来决定"},{"start":6797.452,"end":6822.706,"text":"我的重要性提台湾八次六次这个有什么差别那现在用这个图片您看刚才国安局提的这个日本呢有提供了一些他未来部署飞弹我们透过图层就知道他所在的位置那他所在的位置是他部署或者是将来机动能够涵盖的范围"},{"start":6824.278,"end":6844.429,"text":"但是并没有涵盖它的sensor所以我们讲的这种战略性的共同图像是大范围的战略态势 卫照 海图 航图武器sensor的图全部套叠上去对我们内部长官的判别就有一个清楚的方法"},{"start":6845.379,"end":6871.176,"text":"所以我一直在强调JCOP共同图像刚才讲的是战略共同图像战术图像火邪的图像那刚才讲的如果去中心化分散配置授权这个涉及到武装冲突法他的承担责任那就是长官将来ROE里面要背书同时这个东西要去纳入"},{"start":6872.554,"end":6896.327,"text":"国防大学 子参教育 因为你的子参教育没有教这个你教连三讲 教连二讲 这是没有用的所以所有的图像必须要精准交叉比对我相信这个目前因为国军啊 士林营厂也没有做这个东西陆军有没有这个那个海军是不是能够协助解释我们如何能够提供共同图像"},{"start":6907.183,"end":6934.658,"text":"委員長 海軍參謀長報告那目前我們大氣局有負責的相關因為我們整個的GPS系統有分六拐跟八式的WGS在這些座標校正那我們目前大氣局跟內政部還有各部會所需要的圖資包括我們三軍也會在我們勤制式的這個整合下後面我們大氣局可以協助做這個相關的圖資的校正然後跟相關圖資的可以校正完之後怎麼來"},{"start":6935.638,"end":6962.132,"text":"回到這個整個COP裡面後面我們會提供必要的協助我特別要強調因為到現在我們的陸軍作戰區還是用UTM坐標圖 紙本的圖那它跟海空軍的圖完全不能夠比對那即使去中心化你的授權跨部隊的橫向協調沒有共同圖像這是非常高的風險但誠如部長講的如果只是自衛而不是反擊"},{"start":6963.294,"end":6987.428,"text":"那这个授权是没有关系的你现在的海马斯已经是全部素面化将来的滨海作战指挥部机动鱼叉这两个单位是没有办法沟通的因为通讯装备只管不同所以去中心化只是针对各单位做自我防卫的一个火力开放而不是反击这些定位要清楚这些东西如果不在武装冲突法"},{"start":6988.727,"end":7001.342,"text":"海上这些法律的在我们的国防大学法律系或者职参教育先去定位清楚变成我们未来的指挥官的一个教学的话只要人一定要拆这个就去掉了"},{"start":7002.116,"end":7019.43,"text":"美军的DEFCON THREATCOM INFOCOM他都有交叉比对虽然我们现在是两阶段三个不同的方法你提升战备到应急战备那这个当然有中心不可能中心一夜被摧毁不然我们未来台湾之盾整个concept就被毁掉了所以"},{"start":7021.308,"end":7049.226,"text":"台湾之盾就是一个完整的网络结构如果这个地方去掉了其他可以补足但绝对不是直线的授权往下走我们再看下一张图这张图是海图周遭的东西可是台湾滩在哪里我们国安局的报告台湾滩是四亿至于从平潭岛到厦门岛它执行海上搜救任务"},{"start":7050.414,"end":7073.408,"text":"占便宜吃豆腐利用台湾这个名称启扰我们的影响我们的民心士气但是有图一出来清楚解释那这种图在国安局没有国防部也没有因为这是大海区可以协助航图海图路图做校正套叠这个叫做共同图像而不是一个概念性的解释共同图像各位看这个图"},{"start":7078.063,"end":7102.451,"text":"這張圖是大的衛星照片根據國際民航組織的圖所有的空軍 中共的訓練空域我們的訓練空域全部要標上去因為你不能影響民航機的飛行那從這個圖像你看到一個大範圍這個時候再根據我們國防部每天公布的這個圖套疊上去"},{"start":7103.345,"end":7125.961,"text":"请问长官这样子是不是你对周遭的战略态势可以有一个更客观的判断所以说绝对不是用一张图必须用套叠我们国防部也很辛苦每天公布攻击绕台绕台但是你有没有把其他的训练空域标注出来目前没有这个可以努力可以精进我是肯定"},{"start":7126.826,"end":7149.672,"text":"那比方讲南海的图周遭的图整个的状况全部在我们国安团队跟国安局要能够分享我希望海军在图的方面因为你们有GIS做校正的能力401厂只是列印把这个图这个能力分享让长官有一个大格局宏观的看法"},{"start":7154.605,"end":7177.987,"text":"特别讲到中共在南海跟菲律宾的问题我特别要强调有关在黄岩岛也就是民主交的中共跟菲律宾因为执法潜在的冲突但是我提过外交部讲根据我们内支部领海法这是我们的主权范围即使你现在没有派人管即使是一个小交群"},{"start":7179.175,"end":7206.14,"text":"但这不是菲律宾的权益也不是中共的权益我们的立场要说明因为内政部的领海公布里面在这里面至于刚刚讲的下面的这个什么仁爱交 先兵交大家只是概念根本不知道在哪里所以我们要把图像做出来然后在跨部会的协商的时候大家才知道这个影响是什么哪些是我们的国家权益哪些是民主的价值这两个不是同步的"},{"start":7206.9,"end":7219.215,"text":"那現在我特別要提到我們都談美國的國家安全戰略日本的國家安全戰略因為這麼多年來我們沒有我們版本的國家安全戰略並不是軍事戰略所以對"},{"start":7220.925,"end":7247.239,"text":"陸委會 海委會 內政部 能源 經濟 醫療體系我們純粹使用軍事講所以說有沒有軍事衝突它是有戰略預警的並不是純軍事上剛才部長講的是一個小規模的衝突但不是全面犯台全面犯台的作戰計畫我想聯二我們大家知道反向預算不管是能源要準備醫療體系要準備 儲油要準備甚至外匯存底 黃金都會有變動所以"},{"start":7248.86,"end":7272.486,"text":"一定要有自己的國家安全戰略才有的國家利益核心目標這個時候軍事的從上到下從下到上的支撐才是完整的那同樣美國的國家安全戰略出來國防戰略 軍事戰略 印太戰略包括它的美國的國務院 國防部"},{"start":7273.376,"end":7302.286,"text":"中情局甚至国会他都有专案小组他的资讯分解分享就是刚才局长讲的跨部会要有一个完整的资讯分享立场不同责任不同但是核心利益要怎么样做化解出来这个就是告诉我们现在我们缺乏的是什么我们没有国家安全战略我们今年出了这个四年期国防总检讨比起上一个版本有进步从48页"},{"start":7304.175,"end":7333.417,"text":"变到59页国防战略从1页半变到4页那我们刚出来的国防战略就是白皮书2025年的从183页变到189页内容从4页变到6页我们是在进步但是跟周边的国家相比我们落后很多为什么呢因为没有一个国家安全战略做总指导所以纯粹用国防部的立场来看"},{"start":7334.744,"end":7360.734,"text":"是不够周延的诚如刚才第一个我们执政党的委员讲说我们在杯葛在程序委员会我向大家回应如果执政党在野党的总召跟他的书记长能够在开程序委员会之前先做沟通了解观念就不是在程序委员会投票未反对 觉得反对"},{"start":7363.785,"end":7386.886,"text":"請問這個1.25兆裡面在國內增加國內的實力佔比佔有多少五分之一 四分之一這個站位市長委員問的是實力還是自主我們講的這個1.25兆投資在國內的百分比佔多少投資在"},{"start":7389.921,"end":7404.395,"text":"這個部分我們還要等到我們軍售案的額度確認之後才有辦法去計算我們國內的佔比但是基本上國內的佔比會佔相當大的部分你講的是一個很好的理念"},{"start":7405.888,"end":7434.476,"text":"軍售案 商售案 軍售融資總統特別授權法案這四個案子的特別比例搞不清楚 那國內就不知道1.25兆是投資但是並不是Life Cycle Support如果你算它的售限 售期的維保可能再加2.5兆這個是不在這裡面的你1.25兆建立的是能力並不是量能所以在野黨跟執政黨是需要做溝通我當然支持 我覺得你還不夠"},{"start":7435.458,"end":7444.351,"text":"你的人才培養你的後勤為寶你這些東西都不在裡面了你現在看到只是裝備而且美國的廠商看到商機很好大家都來"},{"start":7447.079,"end":7472.447,"text":"表达诚意但是很多东西框架上只是在那边细节他也讲不出来所以我们提出的建言是什么希望能够努力的执行朝正确方案走我当然支持我还觉得你应该增加因为你要把后勤为宝的life cycle授其成本全部放进去不是只是硬体投资所以从这个图看完了以后我们看这张图因为没有国家安全战略"},{"start":7473.703,"end":7490.072,"text":"所以呢我们只是从纯军事的着眼那友邦呢我们是去看他的我自己的战略意味跟我的核心价值不是去读美国读日本的国家安全战略请问我们政府能不能在国防部国安局"},{"start":7491.247,"end":7505.977,"text":"陸委會內政部所有部會共同努力下希望在這個政府的任期內推出我們的官方版的國家安全戰略這樣你的友盟才能定義你的核心價值如果這樣子看各位看我們有很多大的缺口"},{"start":7506.838,"end":7523.614,"text":"这是努力不够不是各位努力不够是团队的整合不够所以我再次提出来光读别人的国家安全战略而没有产生中华民国官方版的国安战略这有很大的一个落差也就是说你1.25兆的诚意很好"},{"start":7524.386,"end":7545.272,"text":"那一方面讲2030年GDP5%但是1.5呢北造北约是属于社会韧性那在这个1.25到8年的期程里面的那为什么不能在本国的产业能力而是要等美国发架完了才剩下的给我们那你要做一个公平的分配嘛"},{"start":7546.685,"end":7565.86,"text":"報告委員 這個要跟委員報告一下我們在這一次的防衛任性跟不對稱戰力的特別預算裡面我們是一個有計畫性的規劃中間我們會有引進很多新興戰力那這些部分我們都希望落地生產落地建立能量但這個能量不是一天可以建得起來的"},{"start":7566.28,"end":7579.137,"text":"所以在這個部分我們除了在特別預算裡面奠定了基礎之外我們也會在後續的年度公務預算裡面去編列讓國內的產業能夠逐漸的成長起來去建立我們國內的量能"},{"start":7580.1,"end":7600.459,"text":"你这个讲得很好也就是说年度预算跟八年每一年这中间的关系的勾迹那你们请提书面报告我们会支持但是并不是成如第一个这个这个冯委员讲的为反对而反对因为你根本没有在执政党跟在野党的"},{"start":7601.64,"end":7625.688,"text":"我們講的黨鞭 召委你根本沒有做溝通而不是進了會場用投票我們沒有機會跟他溝通我問他也講不出來他們哪一個懂細節他誰懂軍售過程誰懂DCS那DCS既然有為什麼不能夠我們的貿易談判代表去抵消我們對美國的貿易順差DCS還包括計轉 工合為什麼都不談"},{"start":7626.528,"end":7646.376,"text":"那既然FMF軍售融資我們已經編了預算我要你貸款但是我可以給你給你東西現在不給了總統特別授權法案是可以給啊但給的是舊裝備啊後續的料配件你要花錢買這些東西執政黨的同仁在本會委員會裡面他根本搞不清楚啊我的建議是拉高溝通成績我們當時"},{"start":7647.176,"end":7647.797,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝各位"},{"start":7676.618,"end":7689.683,"text":"好謝謝目前有收到臨時提案供兩案待會王定宇委員質詢結束以後進行處理處理完畢休息5分鐘現在接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好謝謝召委我們有請蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":7710.866,"end":7727.746,"text":"局長午安好 蔡委員長局長在這個我們國安局的這個報告當中展示了美日飛在第一島鏈的一個飛彈部署圖實際上這個已經形成一個針對中共的一個防護網了那也提到"},{"start":7728.939,"end":7745.49,"text":"美軍印太司令所強調的這個巨子型的防禦要在低島鏈來落實那並且在這個戰略報告中也提到這個集體防衛的一個核心概念那我想請教局長就是在這樣的一個戰略的一個"},{"start":7746.571,"end":7760.747,"text":"過想之下是否代表我方跟美軍會有更強化自身在第一島鏈的一個存在那甚至有可能在協防台灣上採取戰略更加的一個清晰有沒有可能"},{"start":7761.568,"end":7783.664,"text":"事實上我們剛剛在專題報告當中也在口報的時候跟大家說明了那從美國的國安戰略來看那確實美國對印太地區的安全非常的關注把它稱為是國際競爭的優先的戰場那特別重點就放在第一島鏈那也特別提到了怎麼樣來嚇阻台海現狀被改變那視為是美國國安戰略裡面非常優先的任務"},{"start":7784.304,"end":7799.189,"text":"那從剛剛的報告內容也是在跟委員們說明美國從跟友盟的這種更緊密的協力合作來進行連演連訓以外也去增加在第一島鏈相關的一個部署來遏制可能中共的海空軍力的擴張"},{"start":7799.969,"end":7828.608,"text":"以及封控必要的海域這大概是發展的趨勢那就台灣來講因為剛好就是在第一島鏈非常關鍵的位置所以台灣也必須要去提升自我的防衛能力展現自我的防衛的意識否則在整個國際友盟對於第一島鏈重視的過程當中假如台灣出現防禦真空的話那大家可能會認為台灣只想搭便車當一個freerider假如有這樣的一個質疑的話那可能台灣的一個安全處境會處在一個比較不利的一個狀態"},{"start":7830.049,"end":7856.237,"text":"好 我們台灣的地理位置確實是在第一島鏈裡面非常重要的那我想再請教局長就是從這份戰略報告的內容來看在第一島鏈的盟友分工合作當中台灣是扮演什麼樣的一個角色那是否還有需要再推進相關的請職交換的機制才能夠符合戰略上的一個期待 有沒有可能"},{"start":7856.617,"end":7877.71,"text":"有 在這部分也跟委員說明一下事實上我們除了這些戰略文件來理解重要的有盟他們的整體的國安或防衛態勢的規劃以外我們也透過各種的戰略溝通以及情報交流來掌握相關的發展趨勢也跟委員說明事實上從今年2025年 今年以來我本人"},{"start":7878.49,"end":7895.607,"text":"我本人已經跟全球有45位的國家情報首長跟副首長召開過近100次的雙邊的正式會談那就是透過這種國際的情報交流的機制來瞭解各國對於目前整個印太安全他們關切的主要重點在哪裡"},{"start":7896.167,"end":7913.048,"text":"以及在共同關切之下怎麼來發展更多緊密的包括戰略上的一個合作以及情報上的一個合作的網絡所以我們確實是有這些網絡的建置好 那這個非常好那也請局長這個部分要持續下去好 那有關這份這個國安戰略所"},{"start":7915.571,"end":7929.78,"text":"這個代表的政治訊息及意涵在輿論上仍然有各種不同的一個解讀那我們還是要做最充分的一個準備扮演好在印太戰略中的一個重要的一個角色以及共同防衛第一島鏈的一個責任"},{"start":7931.341,"end":7956.176,"text":"這部分就請我們國安局持續的關注因為事實上在第一島鏈的防衛當中因為台灣不只承受來自於中共的壓力那中共各種對台的複合式威脅那台灣也是站在第一線承受所以我們也累積了不少的經驗那台灣在面臨比較艱困的國際處境之下國際有對我們這麼的支持那我們能夠回報國際社會民主社群的就是去分享我們相關第一線"},{"start":7956.936,"end":7976.392,"text":"處理這些中共複合式威脅的經驗來提升國際我們共同的一個防禦跟安全的韌性好 那我想就近期這個東海跟西太平洋區域的事件再和局長您做一個討論在國安局的這個報告當中也有提到12月6號的時候中共的這個遼寧艦它的艦載機殲15在沖繩空域兩度用雷達鎖定日本自衛隊的F15戰機"},{"start":7983.437,"end":8007.533,"text":"我們也知道火控雷達鎖定在軍事上往往被視為開火前的一個準備步驟這不僅僅是挑釁 更是準敵對的一個行為有關中共對日本軍機實施雷達鎖定我想請教局長評估這一類型的這種侵擾行為是否會有可能會擦槍走火"},{"start":8008.594,"end":8032.949,"text":"這個的風險 有沒有可能對 事實上確實是在 像委員所提到在12月6號的時候那中共遼寧艦的艦載機殲-15有透過雷達的搜索去鎖定到日本的戰機那這樣的動作是非常針對性的而且是有挑釁的所以我們可以看到日本的防相小群是在半夜2點鐘召開緊急記者會來譴責跟抗議這樣子的一個危險的行為這大概是第一部分跟委員報告"},{"start":8033.749,"end":8054.941,"text":"那第二部分在這樣的動作之後我們也看到在12月8號美國立刻啟動了美日安保的一個相關合作的一個機制那由美國的華盛頓號航空母艦的編隊跟日本的那個護衛艦來在日本東部的水域進行演習根本報告的是在12月8號美日啟動這樣的一個"},{"start":8057.406,"end":8072.246,"text":"航母編隊的演習之後中共遼寧艦就是在12月8號開始轉向返回它的一個母港所以跟委員說明的是中共當然是透過一些軍事的手段來對日本進行一些軍事的施壓跟脅迫可是在美國"},{"start":8073.988,"end":8099.124,"text":"日本的同盟快速的來啟動相關的一個防衛以及嚇阻的態勢之後那我們看到中國也是沒有希望看到緊張情勢持續的升高而去讓遼寧艦提早結束相關的演訓所以這次遼寧艦出第一島鏈大概只進行了16天的演訓這是歷來最短的過去一般都有20天以上所以大概整體的態勢從這一次的突發事件以及我們觀察美蒙"},{"start":8099.804,"end":8119.143,"text":"快速啟動的一個嚇阻的一個機制那也看到中共也是不希望這種緊張的對峙持續的升高這個態勢跟委員做以上簡單的說明好 那在這個日本發布這個台灣有事說之後那中國這邊 中共一直一連串的相關"},{"start":8119.924,"end":8134.48,"text":"所謂的炮艦外交意圖要施壓日本製造威懾的訊息我想再請教局長你們怎麼解讀中共這次行動的意涵在軍事或是政治上有達到任何的效果嗎"},{"start":8135.151,"end":8162.117,"text":"我覺得可能背後還是單單看中國對日本的施壓背後還是有一個比較大的地緣政治的圖像也就是中國在區域裡面希望成為一個霸權的角色那當然這一次是以所謂日本高市首相有一些涉台的一個言論來當成中國施壓的一個理由但事實上我們整體的判斷是中國除了關切所謂日本對於台海議題的關注以外"},{"start":8162.577,"end":8187.11,"text":"那中國也非常關切日本在推動美日安保的深化那以及日本在推動防衛政策的改革那以及後續在南西諸島軍事部署的這些狀況所以我想跟我們說明的是即使沒有高市的涉台言論中國還是會有找其他的理由來對日本施壓那這也是我們跟國際很多合作友方在交換意見的時候都有發現到這樣的共同的一個觀察"},{"start":8188.01,"end":8212.293,"text":"那另外這個中國跟俄羅斯的這個轟炸機在12月9號進行聯合巡航位置就接近日本的四國顯示中共對日本的軍事壓力持續提升那對於這個中俄轟炸機無預警的進行聯合巡航顯示中俄之間的這個軍事結盟更深化在東北亞的一個空中協同並且在期間更出現首次有兩國的這個"},{"start":8214.795,"end":8233.594,"text":"軍機同時航向東京引起周邊國家的高度警戒我想藉此請教局長中俄是否有可能常態化在日韓周邊的巡航美日韓在東北亞空域有何反制的作為大概中俄在"},{"start":8235.316,"end":8264.231,"text":"西太平洋的一個空中聯巡它是本來就有定期的這樣的一個活動像去年它就進行了有兩次這樣的一個空中聯巡活動不過今年我們注意到的是它空中聯巡的時間有稍微晚一點我們判斷是因為中國抱歉 俄國的戰略空中武力受到了烏克蘭的豬王行動的無人機攻擊有受到影響所以今年的這個例行的空中聯巡有比較晚一點當然這樣子的話顯示的是中俄一起合作"},{"start":8264.631,"end":8292.68,"text":"在挑戰區域的現狀也對日本做施壓所以委員可能有注意到在12月9號的中美聯巡之後12月10號美國立刻跟日本啟動了戰略空中的聯巡由美國從關島派了兩架的B-52H的轟炸機到日本海跟日本的戰鬥機來進行空中聯合演練那跟委員說明的是在日本海的這個美日的空中戰略聯巡跟演練它有它的意涵"},{"start":8293.16,"end":8306.175,"text":"因為日本海這個位置它剛好可以讓俄國的轟炸機要南下的時候會被美日的空中武力來進行阻擋而且在日本海的一個美國的B-52H的戰略轟炸機以它搭載的"},{"start":8309.058,"end":8333.102,"text":"巡弋飛彈的話是可以直接打到北京所以我們的解讀是美日確實跟剛剛一樣他有立刻啟動了一個美日同盟的一個防衛跟嚇阻的機制來讓中俄了解到美日同盟合作緊密度那更何況在12月12號美國跟日本的方向進行了電話的會議那也譴責了中國挑戰區域現狀的狀況以及重申美日同盟的緊密度"},{"start":8333.382,"end":8360.073,"text":"所以這大概是這一次美日同盟跟中俄聯巡我們看到的一些地緣政治的意涵跟委員座以上的說明那另外我想請教局長在這個近期包括中共對我們不斷的侵擾行為的過程當中我們是否有掌握到在這期間俄國他在台海有事的這個情境之下他們有可能會扮演是什麼樣的角色"},{"start":8360.733,"end":8382.391,"text":"對 這部分我們有在注意那也是跟國際情報交流的一個非常重要的議題就是在台海有事的情境之下俄國可能扮演什麼樣的角色那第一部分可能是有涉及到的一些是軍事裝備的一個協助跟提供後勤對 後勤軍事裝備的協助跟提供那這部分可能是要注意的"},{"start":8382.751,"end":8401.358,"text":"那另外一部分可能也要注意的是俄國會不會在台海周邊海空域以外的西太平洋或東亞的其他地區會有其他的一些俄國他自己的一些軍事的巡弋的活動來增加大家對於這個印太地區"},{"start":8402.358,"end":8428.055,"text":"的情境的複雜度來讓美國的友盟在應處相關的狀況可能會面臨到比較複雜的狀況所以大概有從軍事或戰略面俄國可以發揮一些角色的情境那我們有在做一些推演好 那最後一個問題我想請教一下局長在本週一中國宣布制裁前日本自衛隊統合幕僚長也就是擔任我國行政院政務顧問的這個閻齊茂將軍"},{"start":8433.119,"end":8457.3,"text":"聲稱他與這個台獨分裂的勢力有這個勾連干涉中國內政因此採取多項的反制措施我們看到這個外交部已經對於中國的這樣的一個跨境鎮壓表達嚴正關切那我想請教局長就是中共的是否會有可能針對挺台的相關國際友人特別在美日非之間擬定擴大制裁的一個名單有沒有可能"},{"start":8458.048,"end":8476.198,"text":"對 跟委員說明一下 這大概是中共慣用的手法他會透過這種所謂的境外跨境的一個施壓或這種威脅來針對他所謂的台獨人士或是友台的人士來進行這種所謂的法律戰 心理戰跟輿論戰的一個操作"},{"start":8477.599,"end":8505.154,"text":"一般我們從過去的案例來看它這樣的操作常常會造成一些反效果而且能夠達到只有象徵性的意義沒有實質意義因為這些友台人士他們並不在乎他們在中國不能夠入境或是有什麼資產會被凍結這大概第一部分第二部分的一個反效果是反倒會造成更多的國際友盟他們去提升友台的聲量表達對台灣進一步的支持而不會在中國的壓力之下有任何的讓步"},{"start":8506.054,"end":8532.448,"text":"第三部分很多國際友盟他們會串聯起來更進一步的來批評中共在人權或是台海議題的挑釁我跟委員舉個例子在2021年中國就是對歐洲議會的議員進行了很多的制裁但是在制裁之後我們可以發現到當時的歐洲議員對台灣更加的一個支持跟更加友好甚至也拒絕去批准中國跟歐盟正在洽談的"},{"start":8534.189,"end":8546.494,"text":"經貿投資協定那反倒讓中國承受了一些後座力所以我想跟委員說明的是中國這種操作大概只有一些象徵的意義沒有實質意義而且會造成一些反效果好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員提問 謝謝"},{"start":8551.621,"end":8567.373,"text":"好 謝謝我們先修正宣告待會兒王定宇委員質詢結束以後我們先處理臨時提案之後林楚音委員質詢結束以後我們再休息我們現在請沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":8580.158,"end":8584.701,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請應該是先請顧部長 請顧部長不好意思 第一張是請局長 不好意思請局長 先請蔡局長"},{"start":8598.703,"end":8617.265,"text":"好 謝謝 陳委員長好 局長好那這個呢一開始還是要說就是因為這個今天大家在下面也是等待了一陣子今天這個時間真的是拉得有點比較長我個人是喜歡手實但我不知道大家每一個人大家的風格會不太一樣"},{"start":8618.166,"end":8633.297,"text":"那但是我要先講一件事情就是剛剛陳永康委員有提到這個國防的這一個1.25兆的預算這個程序委員會那我在這邊還是要導正一下視聽就是說呢過去八年民進黨也沒有在程序委員會檔案"},{"start":8634.958,"end":8650.172,"text":"報告事項從來不會檔案 為什麼因為程序委員會是要審查比如說一個法案有沒有記得寫修法理由有沒有15個委員簽名就是他看刑事要件刑事要件完了程序委員過了一讀 然後來這個委員會"},{"start":8652.174,"end":8677.325,"text":"如果按照剛剛前面幾位委員說這一個8年1.25兆裡面應該怎樣 應該怎樣要多多溝通那就應該趕快進來這個裡面國防外交委員會來溝通 對不對所以我覺得用這樣的一個方式去正當化現在在程序委員會跟院會一讀的時候在那邊檔案我覺得是完全不正當的我覺得還是要特別說明這件事情這個絕對是一個不正確的事"},{"start":8677.965,"end":8692.979,"text":"這也跟我今天質詢的內容有關是因為不管是從這一個我們這個美國的國防授權法案又或者說今天中國的網路安全法其實國安現在是有非常非常多的挑戰而這些挑戰國防跟國安現在幾乎是要融為一體"},{"start":8693.88,"end":8714.291,"text":"所以在這邊第一個就是我要提到這個網路安全法剛剛其實我聽到前面的委員也有提到很多資安的問題我也要在這邊先講一下資安的問題有很多層面第一個它有可能是駭客攻擊第二個它有可能就是我們講的insider threat那insider threat又有分成很多有些可能它是工程師他本來就在裡面工作這也是insider threat"},{"start":8714.651,"end":8731.632,"text":"它也有可能是外面的人進來插一個USB這個也是insider threat所以每一種它要防護的方式不一樣而有一些是你的資安的系統要加強那是妨害的有一些你是在前面的門口要做安全檢核的有一些是工程師你要去做他背景調查的這幾個都是不一樣的事情"},{"start":8732.673,"end":8753.269,"text":"所以今天因為人大現在通過這一個中國人大通過這個網路安全法它裡面有提到網路安全堅持中國共產黨的領導這一個推進網路強國建設我比較覺得有特別的是77條這一邊因為這個局長應該也很清楚就是我之前被說要被中國通緝他想要用這個長臂管轄"},{"start":8754.15,"end":8778.917,"text":"那以往大家很熟知的案件是這個李明哲的案件李明哲那時候是在微信上面寫了一篇說中國如何民主化結果被說是違反中國的法律但他仍在台灣他台灣寫因為他寫在微信上他說微信是中國的伺服器所以到之後李明哲在這個旅行的時候他就把他帶走說你違反我們這個中國的法律等等之類的那如果按照這個現在修正後的這個77條他賦予中國對境外"},{"start":8781.858,"end":8809.093,"text":"處理這一個法律的這個能力包含了這個國家安全法 數據安全法反間諜法 對外關係法他要把它整合成一套體系這個有可能是這個法律戰的一個前哨戰因為它等於說我現在就是要把它整合在一起這跟2015年這個習近平軍改把他們網路的訊息部隊全部先把它找到這個戰略支援部其實很類似從那時候開始2016台灣就超多的不管是駭客攻擊 假消息的攻擊"},{"start":8809.793,"end":8836.647,"text":"所以現在我們對於這個網路安全法的生效這個國安局大概有什麼樣的一個對應的方案對 我想大概分幾點跟委員說明第一個就是說在國際的網路安全的相關的一個侵害裡面中國一直是對外發動侵害最主要的來源那這也是我們在跟很多國際理念相近國家在進行一些國安情報的資安討論的過程當中大家都一起關注到的一個重要議題"},{"start":8837.327,"end":8860.741,"text":"而且中國的一個治安對外發動侵害它有不同的政府部會在透過他們所配合的這些私人機構或協力組織在發動相關的侵害包括可能委員熟知的國安部 公安部 軍方都有它的系統所以我要第一個說明的是中國是我們現在國際網安領域裡面大家最關注的一個發動網侵網害最主要的來源"},{"start":8861.301,"end":8885.147,"text":"第二個部分是有關於中國去通過所謂的網路安全法我記得跟委員針對這個問題有討論過也就是說我們民主國家在討論網路安全法案的時候比較重視的是對於民眾各自的維護包括像歐洲的GDPR相關的法案但中國的法案它是不斷地在授權它的政府可以有更大的權益取得更多的對 來控制相關的一些網路的活動"},{"start":8886.147,"end":8908.523,"text":"那所以可能後續我們會繼續來注意一下這個網路安全法通過之後他會不會再對外發動相關的侵害或是更有一個法律戰的理由來對中共所認為對中國網路安全造成威脅影響的個人或團體來發動所謂他要強調的境外的一個施壓或跨境的一個管轄那這樣的發展趨勢我們會繼續來注意"},{"start":8910.044,"end":8936.739,"text":"對 因為我現在發現就是說他們對於比如說可能是日本的國民對於韓國的國民一樣也可以做這件事就變成說因為今天以中國的角度來講他把這個整合以後他的法律戰是無差別的當然台灣是最重要的戰場因為他想要侵略台灣他想要統一台灣那是他的語詞所以但是他其實這個所適用的這個對象其實非常的廣泛所以剛剛局長提到很重要的一點就是我們在跟國外討論這件事情的時候以往我們當然是"},{"start":8937.699,"end":8963.27,"text":"基本的情報交換這個一定會比如說還有像假消息相關的比如說他們在這個國家有什麼假消息這個彼此情資單位都已經會討論但法律戰這個部分等於是又等於要加一個Layer上去就變成說他有時候可能他挑戰的不是我們中華民國的國民他可能挑戰的是日本的可能是韓國的他們的應對方案跟我們的應對方案如果在情報上有Sync的時候這個時候就會變得特別重要"},{"start":8963.71,"end":8977.13,"text":"所以剛剛局長有特別提到這一點所以這也是就是我在後面可能本來剛剛質詢要問到這個已經先回答到了那另外我是這個主席不好意思我要請顧部長就是 謝謝請國防部顧部長"},{"start":8980.677,"end":9007.852,"text":"這我也好部長好那現在因為前陣子有這一個這個中俄軍機它有這個繞日那我用這個圖來稍微說明一下就是第一個他們在日本外海做了很多這種鎖定 照的這些動作台灣當然演練多然後在這個南海在菲律賓那邊做了很多衝撞是比較早之前但是他們有集結兵力然後也有射炮彈這個都發生在12月"},{"start":9008.712,"end":9030.813,"text":"所以就是說這個整個這一個12月其實以這個情勢來講說真的應該是非常的動盪而且很明顯的就不是只有針對台灣他幾乎是在整個第一島鏈都在做這些事情那美國當然相對應的不管是從國防授權從豪豬等等之類的這些法案不管是在眾議院的也有在參議院的通過這個對我們來講當然是重要的支持"},{"start":9033.215,"end":9056.789,"text":"但是現在很麻煩的地方就是在於說如果我們的軍購現在就是卡在那邊我們的總預算第一個沒省嘛我們的新興計畫當然是不能做然後再來呢我們的八年1.25兆這一些事情對於本來他們可能跟台灣想說台灣現在是需要軍力的全世界的軍力都在增加當中結果如果我們今天在預算沒有辦法通過之下"},{"start":9057.389,"end":9079.962,"text":"很多國外的廠商他應該會去尋求其他的國家了因為每一個國家現在都有這個需求所以我現在擔心的事情是說如果我們今天有這一個稍微有一個空窗期半年甚至是一年這個東西沒有辦法持續之後等到我們之後再跟對方想說我們需要武器我們需要新的系統的整合我跟你講那個工程人員可能都到別的國家因為別的國家採購已經結束了"},{"start":9081.443,"end":9099.275,"text":"我們在潛艦就會遇到這樣的問題潛艦我們算是起步得非常早但是我們要把所有的技術人員都叫來然後在同一個時間大家一起整合系統這個是很難約時間的所以現在我想請部長講一下就是說如果我們現在一直卡在這邊沒有辦法持續下去的話會有什麼樣的問題我想美國會對於我們台灣有沒有自我防衛能力的這個決心"},{"start":9110.568,"end":9117.414,"text":"這個信心會產生動搖這個如果以從美國剛發布國家安全戰略來講"},{"start":9119.248,"end":9146.365,"text":"強烈的建議要求盟友要共同分擔這個責任所以我們看到日本就是9兆日圓的這樣子一個有史以來新高的預算當然更不用提到說還有其他的這些前進部署相關的作為來形成一個嚇阻的力量其他我們也看到韓國還有菲律賓甚至澳洲有紐西蘭等等大家都在這個"},{"start":9148.507,"end":9167.799,"text":"這些區域周邊的國家都已經體認到這個中國的軍事威脅已經形成不穩定的一個因素所以我覺得我們必須真的要通過這樣的一個特別預算我們如果不通過這樣的一個特別預算的話我想美國會認為"},{"start":9171.702,"end":9189.208,"text":"我們到底有沒有要跟美國一起包括還有所有印太區域的國家共同來產生一個聚子的能力然後讓這個戰爭不發生對 因為我覺得國際安全戰略剛剛前面有提到就是因為媒體會報導什麼台灣被提到幾次啊什麼等等之類的"},{"start":9189.608,"end":9207.61,"text":"但其實裡面最關鍵的地方不只是說台灣被提到幾次裡面最關鍵的地方是台灣對他們來講已經不是一個保護對象那麼簡單而是必須要一起來承擔整個印太安全主要的一個player如果我們要一起承擔照理說對方把我們納入盟友要一起承擔這本來是好事"},{"start":9208.591,"end":9237.831,"text":"結果當我們要一起承擔的時候結果我們國內沒有辦法達成共識我們的預算沒有辦法通過那我們就沒有辦法做到像我們這張圖上面整理的他說台灣應該要具備核心的能力我們要有嚴抗的能力我們要能夠拒止對方的行動這些事情如果做不到的話這個其實說真的不要說是關稅那麼簡單那個比較前期的事情光是之後他對於到底要跟誰合作他今天到底必須要部署在哪裡然後他的後勤到底在哪裡這些都會影響到這些其他國家的決定"},{"start":9238.411,"end":9252.13,"text":"所以當然我們在這邊如果今天錢有沒有花在刀口上到底有沒有買到應該有的設備系統整合到底整合得如何這個是我們立法委員關心的我們也要持續監督的但前提是這個東西要進到委員會我們才有辦法討論"},{"start":9253.692,"end":9269.271,"text":"我們才有辦法持續下去所以這件事情我們還是會持續的跟社會發聲那也請國防部能夠有採取一些比較新興的措施我前幾天也有跟國防部在討論讓這些聲音能夠傳遞到人民的耳中因為人民知道這件事情"},{"start":9270.407,"end":9288.555,"text":"政治人物才有壓力政治人物才有辦法往前推進如果今天人民都對這件事情無法了解的話我們很多政治人物就在玩資訊落差然後故意用一些錯誤的數字來比較啊那這樣的話國防就沒有辦法繼續往前進進所以這邊呢我們就在一起共同努力因為時間到了謝謝好 謝謝主席謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":9307.581,"end":9312.565,"text":"請國安部長跟國安局長請部長以及蔡局長兩位辛苦了"},{"start":9320.919,"end":9344.264,"text":"首先我提問的是現在在根據今天國安局的報告美國的最新版的NSS國家戰略國家安全戰略他在第一島鏈裡面的安全版圖以及他的安全的補強的方式呢有做了一些說明台灣在裡面的位置那印太司令帕帕羅呢也多次的發表這樣的談話"},{"start":9346.447,"end":9366.717,"text":"另外我還整理了最近有兩份報告一個是2025年的National Security Strategy就是NSS這是川普的最新版另外一個是紐約時報跟英國的報紙揭露的叫做優勢報告來自五角大廈的所以一個是來自於媒體這兩份報告"},{"start":9368.973,"end":9385.308,"text":"overmatch brief這一個所謂的優勢報告很多人看到這個台灣完蛋了美國打不贏中國了它裡面有提到就是說美國的軍事武器雖然比較精良那比較昂貴面對中國已經預制好"},{"start":9385.908,"end":9411.907,"text":"大量的彈藥 飛彈還有一些無人機廉價可複製的他們認為美國他用的是美國會介入當中國武力犯台可是介入的時候有可能會付出代價甚至於戰敗這一個如果來自於五角大廈我覺得就是美國人寫的報告跟中國人寫的報告有點不一樣中國人的報告是用來吹牛的美國的報告呢要嘛就是要檢討問題要不然就是要預算的"},{"start":9412.407,"end":9436.496,"text":"這是要跟美國國會要錢的一份報告就是我不行了 我要被打敗了趕快多給我一點預算嘛但是這個overmatch brief應該跟NSS搭配變成一個Q&A因為在川普的國家安全戰略裡面有針對這個提出解答他認為台灣是第一島鏈的關鍵節點屬於印太防衛的核心這個就所謂的把台灣納入美國安全版圖"},{"start":9437.216,"end":9463.784,"text":"第二個半導體跟科技的供應鏈台灣成為美國很重要的關鍵夥伴第三個維持台海和平印太穩定必要條件那美國反對片面改變那另外就提到了台灣要發展他講台灣應該要提升自己的防衛力量台灣應該要發展大量低廉的高精準的不推測戰力美國也應該要這樣做所以台美應該合作一起來發展無人機跟這些系統"},{"start":9465.224,"end":9476.253,"text":"包含分散部署等等所以可以把NSS當作answerovermatch brief當作提問或者要預算的文書我不知道這樣詮釋先請問蔡局長我這樣詮釋對不對"},{"start":9478.483,"end":9505.821,"text":"尊重委員的一些看法因為美國媒體所揭露的是一些片段的資訊我們比較不適合做一個全面的評估第二個我想委員也已經很正確的指出來這種的資訊會被對外釋放它可能背後是有一些媒體訊息的操作刻意來凸顯到美國可能在哪一部分還要再做進一步的加強但是NSS是一個美國的國家安全戰略其實是每一任總統都會提出來的"},{"start":9506.001,"end":9511.632,"text":"所以我接下來要先請問顧立雄部長我為什麼剛才花了點時間把這兩份報告講了一下"},{"start":9512.83,"end":9537.339,"text":"那中國的威脅持續升高美國的國家安全戰略裡面也提出解決的方法方法其中有一個就台灣或者各盟友應該提升自我防衛的意志跟投資所以日本 韓國 澳洲 菲律賓大家都在加大對自我安全的重視跟預算的投入所以我第一個問題請教顧立雄部長"},{"start":9538.599,"end":9563.331,"text":"那在威脅升高的狀況下我們的國防年度預算四個月了還沒付尾加上我們的八年期每年平均一千五百億的1.25兆的國防特別預算條例連審查都不能審查對於國防跟國安會造成什麼樣實質的影響我先講實質的影響國安會擔心這錢沒得來那我們的安全是不是有破了一個洞那請教顧部長"},{"start":9564.856,"end":9588.047,"text":"我想剛剛因為委員提到那個美國的國家安全戰略我還是從這個角度出發因為美國認為印太跟台灣都是最關鍵的一個戰略組織因為他很明顯的擺出來說印太的和平穩定是美國的一個核心利益而台灣位在這一個核心利益中的一個核心位置所以他"},{"start":9588.7,"end":9614.445,"text":"美國要建立一個能夠拒止侵略的一個軍事力量但是美國不能也不應該單獨承擔這樣子他的概念是美國領導盟友分攤大概這樣子而他重視的安全他為什麼要做這個安全網絡他在安全網絡版圖裡面是有把台灣放在裡面的所以台灣是美國會持續維持這樣的關鍵的一個軍事能力但是"},{"start":9615.543,"end":9643.906,"text":"美國認為台灣在內的盟友必須成為這個巨子體系的一部分而不是一個被保護的對象所以我把我問題簡單講就兩大題第一個這些國防預算不審查特別預算就連付委都不能付委對我們國家安全的實質的影響是什麼第二個對於盟友的影響是什麼然後就兩位我們國安層級非常重要的兩位部長級的"},{"start":9645.799,"end":9663.579,"text":"就盟友就我們的國防預算跟我們特別條例一直不能覆違重要的盟友有什麼樣的反應這三題是不是先請布部長接下來請蔡局長我想簡單回答就是說我們是在這個第一島鏈全員的一個重要關鍵位置所以我們當然成為一個"},{"start":9665.151,"end":9684.621,"text":"巨子體系裡面一個最重要的一個部分那問題就是我們不能成為破口我們不能成為破口所以我們一定要不斷的強化自我防衛能力所以預算沒有通過我們會有成為破口的風險我這樣詮釋對嗎我想委員的這個指教是我們是認同"},{"start":9685.842,"end":9711.304,"text":"好 所以對國防的實質或國家安全的實質影響我們有可能會成為破口因為中國每年增加7%2025年到8兆那我剛才第二個問題是對於國際盟友會不會產生什麼衝擊影響以美國日本為例我想美國已經很明白的表示我們就是要成為巨子體系一部分所以我們如果特別預算沒有通過的話"},{"start":9712.605,"end":9741.921,"text":"美國對我們有沒有自我衝擊的能力跟決心當然會進而產生質疑這個質疑會導致什麼結果我們國防部立場應該是說我們不希望這個對這樣的一個質疑會發生所以我們還是懇切的期待我們的這一個不管是年度預算或者是我們的國防特別預算都能夠跟美國以及所有印太區域國家這樣子的一個"},{"start":9742.917,"end":9751.741,"text":"增加國防預算這樣子的一個節奏是同行的那你有收到來自於重要盟友的關切嗎我想美國"},{"start":9754.676,"end":9774.822,"text":"在台的這個鼓勵人處長他是公開講我想他已經一再的表達對這部分的一個關切對我們提升自我防衛能力的決心他希望朝野共同一致所以他代表是美國政府那除了他有沒有另外來自華府的直接的關切你不方便講我尊重"},{"start":9775.422,"end":9802.98,"text":"我想我們之所以會提出這樣的一個特別預算我們也不是一時興起的所以我們都會跟美國進行溝通所以我們也都有取得美國DSEA的一些初步報價的這些相關的資料然後再加上我們有一些委資案跟我們認為必須要透過商購來強化我們自我防衛能力才提出這樣的一個特別預算所以這個預算的編列是有所本不是空白的授權那我請教蔡民營局長我剛才一樣三個問題"},{"start":9804.526,"end":9824.328,"text":"這些國防年度預算特別條例特別預算一直不能負為審查對我們國家安全體系會產生什麼實質的影響第二個對於我們盟友傳遞出的訊息會有什麼實質的影響第三個我們有沒有接收到來自於盟友的關切concern"},{"start":9825.266,"end":9854.154,"text":"對 我想基本上美國因為重視印太地區認為它是一個國際競爭的優先戰場那也鼓勵盟友必須要加強相關的一個軍事的投資以便在西太平的第一島鏈可以形成一個盟友們之間的共同防禦的一個網絡跟架構那假如台灣在過程當中出現了防禦上的漏洞或是沒有展現自我防衛決心的話那當然其他國家會質疑台灣變成是一個搭便車而不是一個夥伴的一個概念"},{"start":9854.454,"end":9876.403,"text":"那你就沒有辦法融入這個區域這是國際盟友的可能會傳遞這樣的錯誤訊息對那對於我們實質的國家安全有沒有造成什麼當然會有傷害你假如說變成沒有辦法得到國際友盟的信任的話那當然其他國家要實質或是象徵性的來協助或聲援台灣他的力道就會減弱那你有接收到盟友直接的關切嗎"},{"start":9877.183,"end":9888.236,"text":"因為我們還在規劃相關預算的一個過程當中那當然也是希望這一部分假如立法院這邊有更實質的支持的話那會讓國際友們比較放心一點"},{"start":9889.878,"end":9908.469,"text":"我繼續救救兩位啦 該講安全網絡我們是盾嘛 那現在看一下毛最近俄羅斯在第一島鏈周邊活動的頻率有增加尤其最近三個月當然他一方面是要拉攏中國來順遂他在烏克蘭的侵略啦那我有整理一下他出現的一個情形"},{"start":9909.589,"end":9938.12,"text":"外交部跟國安局有沒有情資言悉有關俄羅斯在未來中國可能武力犯台的情形下會扮演什麼樣的角色是不是先請局長先說有 這部分剛剛陳俊宇委員也在提問那我們有提到說在跟國際上做一些情資交換或情勢研判的時候確實有在關注中俄可能軍事上的合作那一個部分可能是一些軍品項目後勤俄國可能會支援中國"},{"start":9938.78,"end":9965.1,"text":"那第二部分是可能假如說是在台海有事的時候俄國會像委員在畫面上所提到的他會在區域裡面的其他的點來形成一些挑釁的動作以便來複雜化 分散化他可以扮演牽制的角色對 他可以有一個牽制制衡的一個角色那這部分也是我們在關注的那部長呢 國防部長這邊你們有沒有關注到俄羅斯在我們台海周邊或者在第一島鏈的活動那他未來在你們的想定裡面他的角色是什麼"},{"start":9965.68,"end":9991.547,"text":"我想這一次中俄的一個聯合巡航特別是在高斯早苗首相發表這個相關的言論之後中國非常的不滿意之後呢除了中國有一些演習的一些活動之外呢中俄的這樣的一個協作所帶來的一個訊息是相當的明確的也就是他們會在這個地方相互為"},{"start":9992.888,"end":10012.303,"text":"對於這個地區產生那他可能扮演什麼角色呢我想剛剛局長已經說明得相當的清楚了我想這樣子的一個協作的關係我們都可以看起來第一個他可能是養工牽制的角色另外一個可能是技術裝備或者戰技實戰訓練提供的角色"},{"start":10016.826,"end":10033.685,"text":"所以在這裡面我就建議國安局去評估看看我們有哪些商用技術流入到俄羅斯將來會轉過來變成對著我們的矛頭這個要提早因應因為他們在合作已經看得到了我們在工業鏈上因為現在軍民通的東西那個規則地還越來越大"},{"start":10034.386,"end":10057.975,"text":"以前軍品商用品分得很清楚但現在很多這個東西有重疊我覺得應該要及早建立一個表該攔住就要攔住啦那我跟主席借最後一分鐘只有一個問題越南配合第七艦隊跟美國印太司令部在我們台海進行所謂的自由航行穿越這個很新喔因為我印象中越南的軍艦穿越大概至少只有我記憶所及是第一次"},{"start":10058.815,"end":10079.978,"text":"那他們的外交部也出來證實說對我們有因為自由航行是由美國領導的來所謂的公海的一個活動台海公海南海公海這個對區域的和平穩定國際秩序的維持對台灣坦白講是有利的我簡單一個問題越方或美方我們第一個事情有沒有掌握有沒有接獲通知是不是先請教局長"},{"start":10081.371,"end":10110.211,"text":"這部分我們跟國防部這邊還有我們其他的國安情報機關對於周邊的共建或外建的活動我們都充分的溝通跟掌握他要穿越我們第一時間在事前有沒有接受到不管是美方或者越方的直接的通知這部分可能比較不適合這樣公開的討論因為涉及到國際的合作我尊重這個不適合討論的話我是認為這是一個就回到我第一題講的NSS那一個區域安全網絡那這個安全網絡越多"},{"start":10111.011,"end":10116.617,"text":"越扎實對戰略關鍵核心的台灣黨就越安全好 謝謝兩位 謝謝主席好 謝謝我們現在先處理臨時提案共兩案請議事人員宣讀第一案第一案鑒於近期福茂國際室內裝修有限公司得標國防部購置之還少更"},{"start":10135.305,"end":10163.627,"text":"而DX猛炸药类火药原料另在联合国法规及国际法规框架下为防止恐怖组织及防范此类高爆炸跨境风险对于此类高爆炸药买卖运输有严格限制及规定为避免此类所采购火药原料与运输过程中发生不可预期之高风险事件妨害国家名誉及安全确保如期如值运交远要求国防部对于高"},{"start":10164.187,"end":10171.544,"text":"高負風險原料採購每批貨於原產地起運前應新依據聯合國危險貨物運輸建議書"},{"start":10174.194,"end":10201.978,"text":"國際海事組織IMO之國際海運危險貨物規則及經濟部警政署等國內特許管制等相關法規完成於原產地至本案履約地點之運輸申報計劃文件並火炸藥檢驗效能之第三方公證單位檢驗報告同列為交貨因隨附合格文件之一提案人委員馬文君 連署人委員陳永康徐巧欣等委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":10204.042,"end":10226.519,"text":"好 请问国防部有没有对提案内容有意见在文字修正部分有建议在第二段的第二行原文字为应先依据联合国国际海事组织之国际海运危险货物规则建议修正为应先依据国际海运危险货物相关规范以及第四行的"},{"start":10227.259,"end":10237.943,"text":"原文字是完成於原產地至本案履約地點之運輸建議修正為要求廠商完成於原產地至本案履約地點之運輸請委員知道以上文字修正同意其他委員請問在場委員有其他意見沒有那我們修正通過"},{"start":10257.455,"end":10269.555,"text":"接下來請議事人員宣讀第二案第二案鑒於近期服貿國際室內裝修有限公司得標國防部購置之海嫂跟兒爹兒子猛炸藥類火藥原料"},{"start":10271.277,"end":10297.276,"text":"考量本招標案另一律定後續金額上限為新台幣八億兩千四百六十七萬元之擴充條款將採限制性招標洽源的廠員洽源得標廠商辦理採購為避免後續造成不良事件嚴肅相關採購紀律原要求國防部對於此類後續擴充所採購而DX海嫂根汁每公斤單價不得高於原案採購編號"},{"start":10300.098,"end":10305.022,"text":"好 國防部有委員好 有文字修正的建議在第三行原文字是將採限制性的招標建議修正為得採限制性招標 請委員知道"},{"start":10325.866,"end":10332.629,"text":"好 請問其他委員有沒有意見沒有 好 同意修正通過謝謝好 那我們兩個提案我們按照修正通過現在請林土英委員上台質詢謝謝"},{"start":10361.799,"end":10386.514,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請我們國安局蔡局長請蔡局長謝謝主席 林委員早局長好今天我們當然是針對台海周邊包括我們的整個軍事的衝突來做分析但是我想有關於國防的部分現場當然有國防部以及我們這些將領在做維護"},{"start":10388.115,"end":10403.446,"text":"但是我個人比較關注的還是對於我們台灣所有的國民所面對的其他另外一種在心理上面的安全性的部分來跟您就教我知道在這之前包括我們在"},{"start":10404.947,"end":10425.587,"text":"國防外交委員會也通過了就是有關於沈博洋委員受到中國以這種所謂長臂管轄的方式來限制他甚至於讓他在出國的時候感到壓力那麼我們也知道這個蕭美琴副總統在捷克的時候也曾經遭到中國的跟監那麼根據現在一個最新的報導指出"},{"start":10427.168,"end":10441.176,"text":"在中國的所謂天網籠罩台日嗎那麼就是說現在國台辦利用所謂學者或者是研究等等放置了一些所謂相關的情報人員在他們的駐外館那麼從國台辦的人派到這個他們中國的外館然後對台商"},{"start":10448.78,"end":10464.853,"text":"留學生以及我們的僑民甚至於觀光客來做所謂的監控甚至於這樣的長臂管轄會造成一些騷擾那麼這篇報導的內容是不是屬實而國安局是不是真的有掌握這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":10466.506,"end":10490.467,"text":"這部分跟委員說明一下那中共他在駐外管處他有時候確實會部署一些國台辦系統或處理涉台事務的相關的人員到駐外管處去那以委員剛剛所提到的這個特定的國家來講我們長期在注意至少有兩名到四名這樣子的工作背景的一個人員那所謂這樣的特定的國家而且有中國的這個駐外管員監控我們的"},{"start":10493.45,"end":10509.971,"text":"國民不是特定的像我剛剛提到的都是政治人物喔只是一般的國民這樣的國家有幾個甚至於可不可以講出來到底有哪些國家這個可能沒有辦法全部把它講出來啦會變成是我們到底掌握的相關的狀況就會被對岸了解"},{"start":10510.732,"end":10536.072,"text":"不過跟委員特別強調的是委員的關注應該是在於說中共這些派駐海外的涉台人員會不會有對我們的僑界進行一些騷擾、分化的活動或是對於我們跟駐地國政府一些官方、非官方的往來會進行一些相關的動作這部分我們會注意另外也跟委員說明的是我們跟駐地國的相關單位也都有親自的交流"},{"start":10537.133,"end":10550.943,"text":"所以言下之意就是說因為當不只是政治人物而包括台商 留學生甚至於台灣的觀光客到某些特定的國家的時候需不需要擔心他們的安危我想其實對於一般民眾來講他所擔憂的是這個部分"},{"start":10554.344,"end":10581.209,"text":"安全的部分我覺得應該還好啦主要是因為這些我們所謂的特定國家基本上有很多都是民主法治的國家那假如中共的人員在當地有一些違法的動作的話那當然當地的警政或相關的治安機構也不容許中共的駐外人員違反一般駐外人員的一個相關的一個規範來做這樣的一個威脅或脅迫我指的是人身安全的那第二個假如中國要透過的所謂"},{"start":10582.23,"end":10598.969,"text":"這種跨境管轄包括委員提到的對沈博洋委員這種要發布所謂的紅色的通緝令的話那在執行上事實上也不容易因為Interpol裡面它本來就有一個法律專家小組會針對各國所提出的這些通報進行相關的審查"},{"start":10599.81,"end":10619.254,"text":"而怎麼樣來避免不同的國家利用這種通報來打壓國內的異議人士一直是法律專家審查小組的審查重點那我們也有透過相關管道來了解那中國有沒有在Interpol的系統當中去做這樣的小動作那有的話我們的友好國家相關的對口都會跟我們提出相關的警示那我們會做"},{"start":10619.914,"end":10637.56,"text":"因為在這一篇報導當中有特別提到點出了曼谷也就是泰國言下之意就是提到說有一些東南亞國家真的跟中國的關係比較好的時候那麼協助中國做這種所謂的長臂管轄或是跨境鎮壓的機會要來得比較高那麼真的是如此嗎"},{"start":10638.581,"end":10653.403,"text":"有一些確實要注意這個部分也有跟相關業管單位這主要是外交部來看這個部分怎麼樣來跟國文做一個示警那這部分還在內部作業那假如有比較清楚的一個規劃可能到時候再跟委員做一些報告"},{"start":10653.663,"end":10667.042,"text":"好另外一個就是我不知道國安局最近有沒有注意到一個狀況那就是過去我們在講錯假訊息但是如果說現在是不是研發出另外一種新的模式叫做惡意訊息"},{"start":10669.365,"end":10679.474,"text":"最近我看到網路上非常多就是說以現有的事實來做惡意的包裝比如說像現在我舉例的這個是一個我們的交通的罰則啦但是這個罰則法定在那裡但是其實幾乎我們所有的交通警察沒有來執行過就是你閃綠燈的時候如果你惡意的去闖這個馬路其實是罰500塊"},{"start":10695.248,"end":10708.34,"text":"但是其實法定在那裡我必須講這個法還是立法院立的法但是一般的警察單位沒有特別去執行但是現在突然間在網路上在社群媒體上流竄有這樣的訊息而且說賴清德"},{"start":10711.422,"end":10726.756,"text":"為了要連任總統所以怎麼樣怎麼樣這個就是一種現在被稱為另外的一種所謂惡意訊息要帶風向的傳播那麼這個算不算是另外一種進階版的灰色作戰那麼國安局有注意到這個狀況嗎因為這個訊息喔它是這樣它在法規上確實存在"},{"start":10732.521,"end":10752.036,"text":"但是呢他想要引發的是恐慌所以當你去跟社群平台檢舉的時候他無法下架就像現在很多包括我個人在內有許多的這種所謂不雅的照的AI的影片當我個人本人去檢舉的時候他跟我說委員這個只是用了你的臉"},{"start":10753.837,"end":10781.253,"text":"那其他的部分不是你的時候我們其實要經過一些審核所以這種的惡意訊息現在開始進行流竄的時候請問國安局有沒有注意到這個狀況那這個狀況如果身為這個國安上面會引發民眾的不安的時候尤其是這個是引發的是民眾對於這樣的惡意訊息感到不安的時候又帶有一點爭執實性又無法在社群平台做處理的時候國安局是不是有注意到"},{"start":10782.673,"end":10797.96,"text":"跟委員說明一下這部分的狀況我們有注意到以前在委員會的討論當中有跟委員們做過報告網路上的爭議訊息非常的多但是由本局來出面處理的我們大概會聚焦在比較有涉及到國安層次的爭議訊息"},{"start":10798.98,"end":10818.696,"text":"這包括到污衊元首或是威脅要傷害元首或是相關的正義訊息在傳承錯假的戰爭資訊造成民眾恐慌或是在疫病重大災難的時候去錯假訊息的散佈去造成一些動盪這部分我們會介入委員剛剛講到的這個我們會注意的原因是它確實你要去"},{"start":10819.577,"end":10844.757,"text":"通報到司法警察機關來要求平台業者下架那個法律要件他變得是不太充足因為你要請平台業者下架或是要去請平台業者提供我們司法警察機關相關的IP位置跟使用者的身份的話我們必須要有法律的依據那委員局的例子他大概就是在散佈他的一些想法故意用到總統的名稱來吸引大家的注意他又還沒有到污衊"},{"start":10845.518,"end":10864.467,"text":"但是又有點在做一些渲染所以這樣的樣態我們會持續注意那也會透過我們跟平台業者也有一些溝通管道來把這些新的樣態跟平台業者來做說明那尤其明年又有國內的大型選舉假如沒有事先有個機制的話我們也很擔心到時候一個案子一個案子被動來處理的話我們的整個國安情報機關這個網絡我們承受的業務壓力會很大那也謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":10870.99,"end":10895.967,"text":"好因為我特別提到的是因為現在沒有選舉所以他當然就把這個目標鎖定在我們的總統也是我們國家的元首但是就如你所說接下來選舉來的時候這樣的方法也可以如法炮製那麼這個部分他就會影響到選舉的公平性這樣的做法我必須講雖然說我自己是民進黨立法委員但是在地方政府當中也有很多非"},{"start":10896.707,"end":10916.997,"text":"民進黨籍其實任何黨籍的這個所謂的地方行政首長也可以用這個方法來做如法炮製但是我個人所關注的是說這個一旦這樣的方法下去之後他會影響到的是我們整體國家內部的安定性那麼如果他真的被國安局現在已經視為是一個就是可能的"},{"start":10917.537,"end":10943.796,"text":"灰色地帶的騷擾的另外一種形式因為我會發現這些影片拍出來他的手法一致方法一致甚至於他在同樣一個時間的大範圍的去做散播那這樣的過程如果你去點選這些散播的人他的不論是粉絲團或者是他個人的使用帳號的時候你會發現點進去他不一定是台灣人甚至於像現在很多的社群媒體點進去的時候你可以去查他"},{"start":10945.217,"end":10965.354,"text":"在發文或者是登記的地方也非台灣對 那像這種的話我知道對於國安局來講這個部分不容易但是也就是因為是灰色地帶所以不容易所以我也就提醒國安局在這個部分必須要在有一些而且是跨部會之間可能不只是只有國安局"},{"start":10965.754,"end":10982.997,"text":"要換不會來做一個整合跟討論跟平台業者一直有透過不同的管道在溝通那正如委員剛剛也正確的觀察到那像X平台跟TREATS他們現在都會去揭露貼文者的所在的位置這是新的 最近才有的一個動作那我覺得這樣的趨勢透明化的趨勢是對的"},{"start":10984.118,"end":11001.744,"text":"我們持續來溝通好 本席也是特別把他質詢出來喔也就是希望說我們能夠透過質詢也可以讓更多的資訊透明化那把這個所謂灰色地帶的惡意的騷擾甚至惡意信息的傳播能夠讓更多民眾了解真相好 謝謝委員提醒喔我們來注意 謝謝好 謝謝那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":11338.629,"end":11343.291,"text":"我們現在繼續開會 接下來請吳宗憲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們麻煩部長請顧部長"},{"start":11358.314,"end":11386.263,"text":"部長早安我想我們還是延續星期一的問題把幾個我還是不太理解的問題再就交於部長部長我們看了一下就是您交的那一份台海情勢跟國軍戰備報告第三頁還有第五頁其實有反覆強調一件事就是共軍的威脅嚴峻國軍必須隨時備戰所以我想這代表了就是我們國家目前處境是危險"},{"start":11387.823,"end":11406.549,"text":"這一秒鐘的戰備空窗都不應該有因為我們目前是一個危險的狀況那一樣我還是回到那個問題既然這麼危急那像這種RDX這種關鍵的炸藥那全台灣只有一家裝修公司得標而且他財力又遠遠不及我們的那個巨額採購標準"},{"start":11408.169,"end":11434.174,"text":"法規裡面它在第五條第一項其實有提到一些建議的條件那這樣感覺就很像獨門生意那可以麻煩部長再說明一下謝謝部長相反的我們不是獨門生意我們是公開採購那麼任何符合這個都來投標這個就是比較廣增商源好 謝謝部長那我想因為我自己看就是我自己看的這個案子"},{"start":11435.735,"end":11451.686,"text":"8.24億然後得標廠商是用5.93億強效所以這個看起來好像其實他這個案子是一個在投標當時會讓廠商覺得是一個有利有利潤的案子我過往遇過的一些標案是"},{"start":11452.406,"end":11473.386,"text":"根本沒有利潤所以沒有廠商要來標或是一兩家覺得他可以節約成本的來標那像這個8.2C但是5.93億就可以搶下看起來好像是一個有利潤的案子但是卻只有一家來標那我先跟部長報告一下我過往在懲辦這種標案的犯罪的時候"},{"start":11474.167,"end":11490.044,"text":"我看到這樣的案例我第一個會想到這個會不會有可能是外部自己微標好了第二個有沒有可能是資格上面去綁標我是說以前我過往處理案件我第一個就會想到所以我們沒有綁標沒有沒有我不是說本案"},{"start":11490.684,"end":11511.986,"text":"我是說跟部長報告過往我看到一個有利潤出來的案子卻只有一家廠商來標的時候我第一個在辦的時候我會去思考第一個是不是外部就為標為好了第二個有沒有可能資格上面特定綁某些特殊規格這是我過往的工作經驗我不是說本案所以"},{"start":11513.257,"end":11531.631,"text":"我就覺得一個很奇怪目前我國有實質營運國際貿易許可進出口的廠商我查了一下有35萬家但是這次有利潤卻只有一家來所以我才會一直跟部長就教這件事情"},{"start":11532.472,"end":11548.608,"text":"那因為你有提到說火藥的原料其實是管制的 門檻很高那國內其他有很多一些大廠 軍火大廠或有一些曾經有這種實際經歷經驗 實機的貿易商卻做不到那一家日本就1900萬 去年才臨時變更登記"},{"start":11552.031,"end":11572.039,"text":"的這種菜鳥公司可以拿到所以我當時才會一直覺得說只有兩種可能一個就是這個廠商真的很厲害天才打敗所有軍火大廠第二個貨源是不是有問題會不會是來洗產地那這個是我當時覺得最奇怪的地方我想請教一下部長您的想法就只有一家來而且這家的資本額又不高"},{"start":11573.463,"end":11587.712,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們因為有一個合約的一個控制的作為也就是說他要先繳押標金然後還要繳旅業保證金那麼如果他不能夠旅業旅業保證金會被沒收然後停權嗎"},{"start":11588.653,"end":11617.799,"text":"所以他一般在這種所謂的火藥原物料我們看過去20年來都有一個特色就是說他要有把握那有把握他就要取得那個當地政府的輸出許可以及原廠的證明如果他沒有把握他就會面臨違約的後果謝謝部長部長講得很清楚就是我們國防部的武器還是在違約的時候可以沒收他的履約保證金等等但是我還是擔心一件事情"},{"start":11618.902,"end":11637.521,"text":"他的資本額就1900萬光押標金1770萬就等於是掏空他的身家當然他還要得標之後他還要去繳3000萬的旅業保證金他當然他是拿著國防部的契約去銀行搬錢那這個在商界其實叫空手套白狼"},{"start":11638.161,"end":11664.369,"text":"他這個三千萬不是他的錢而是他拿您的合約去跟銀行借來的錢我想委員講說不是他的錢是不是他的錢您這個我想這個沒有現在這個講話好像部長您先聽我說明一下因為他的資本額只有一千九百萬光押標金就一千七百七十萬那履約保證金三千萬呢這個部分其實只能證明說他有辦法拿著合約到銀行去借錢出來"},{"start":11665.109,"end":11688.421,"text":"委員應該也清楚我們的資本額登記跟他實際的財力我想沒有什麼直接必然的管理委員也是講出這應該很清楚那個部長我再提一個部分我講一個很簡單的其實我們在買東西的時候像譬如說您的事務所如果要買個5.9億的電腦設備你會找一家完全沒有賣過電腦的公司而且他的資本額遠低於"},{"start":11689.361,"end":11715.238,"text":"只有1900萬這樣這麼小的公司如果要包您事務所的電腦設備您會敢找這樣的事務所嗎敢找這樣的店家他完全沒有經驗我還是跟委員報告我們就清查94年來迄今採購火藥原物料的38個案子都是採購它招標廠商的資格都一樣就是我禮拜一所講的最重要就是有公司設立證明納稅證明跟國際保險那我要接下來要講一下我們查了一下他們的資本額"},{"start":11718.761,"end":11721.245,"text":"這個資本額分別有從新台幣100萬元到1億2000萬元不等這些38個案子每一個的資本額"},{"start":11731.366,"end":11753.721,"text":"從最低有到達只有一百萬那也都 重點就在於他有沒有能夠履約為什麼巨額採購的標準他有這些設計就必須他要有十分之一的相當標案十分之一的財力證明第五條第一項而且要有相當的實際的經驗過往交易的經驗要達到五分之二"},{"start":11754.421,"end":11769.499,"text":"為什麼有這些規定就是他希望把風險降到最低您在外面講的沒錯啊您講了一句話說我們要求他要有一定的資本額他就一定能履約嗎當然不可能但是我們是在降低不履約的風險我想今天"},{"start":11770.5,"end":11797.001,"text":"採購法或任何一個標準在那裡要求這些人要有相當的財力相當的過往經驗他不是說百分之百保證一定履約這世界上沒有這種事但是我們是降低不履約的風險嘛所以我們今天的意思一直是這樣我不是說國防部沒有辦法去沒收他的履約保證金我從來沒有這樣講而是在國防國家安全的重要性上面來說"},{"start":11798.042,"end":11826.513,"text":"幾千萬是小事情我一直在意的是我們能不能夠有一個很好的標準去嚴格瞭解幫我們做這些採購的這些公司他是一個很穩定然後有經驗有財力的公司能夠讓這個標案能夠順利的履約完成不讓我們國防產生空窗其實我的重點在這而不是在於說反正他交不出來我可以沒收他的保證金我跟布朗先說明這個點因為我一直"},{"start":11827.413,"end":11845.856,"text":"慶富案當時我有去研究那個案子其實它也是一個財力不好的公司去標下那個352億的案子然後後面又發生詐貿代案跟九家公司代了205億你要想這個案子就像我們拿來看我們今天這個案子"},{"start":11846.797,"end":11871.787,"text":"對他跟銀行拿著國防部的企業跟銀行借了錢出來給你當那個履約保證金他後來沒有辦法履約了國防部確實可以沒收這筆錢沒有錯但是我們國防部不是盈利失業這個錢對國防部沒有益國防部需要的是我們炸藥能夠拿到再來他今天國防部把我錢沒收了我公司倒閉就好倒楣的是誰就是那家貸款的銀行那貸款銀行"},{"start":11874.288,"end":11899.525,"text":"這個呆帳出來到最後倒楣就是帶銀行的股東啊或者是國內的存保嘛那其實到最後受害的還是國人啦所以這就是我覺得說我不會說認為國防部可以沒收履約保證金這一件事情就覺得啊我沒有責任啊我這樣做都是對的是這樣因為我還是很希望國防的每一筆採購都能夠如實交貨因為國防不能有真空嘛"},{"start":11900.345,"end":11926.398,"text":"所以我才跟那天跟部長說我們兩個對國家都有忠誠義務我們都非常的愛護這個國家我希望說都能夠順順利利的採購到該採購的東西我們也都希望順順利利跟委員報告我們清查了過去這38個案子32個案子已經驗收合格都結案付款其中有5萬里約中其中有一個案子就是因為沒有辦法拿出輸出許可證明"},{"start":11927.972,"end":11936.91,"text":"所以他的關鍵就是他沒有辦法拿出輸出許可證明所以他沒辦法離約就像您之前有待過金管會我們都知道"},{"start":11938.26,"end":11958.775,"text":"商場上KYC是一件很重要的事情銀行要貸款給你他絕對不是說你來跟我說你要借錢你還得起錢講這兩句話我就認同銀行會KYC的去對備放款者來貸款者我會去了解你的工作狀況你過往的那個信用狀況以及你的財力你有什麼不動產我都會去了解這些"},{"start":11959.395,"end":11986.697,"text":"所以我才敢再貸款給你那一樣我只是拜託國防部在我們在找人家來投標的時候我們對這些人我們要設足夠的門檻我們要排除掉一些有風險的公司否則會有一個狀況就有人跟我講他說哇那今天你的敵國都不用射飛彈來對你了他就在我們國內成立個100家小額的小10萬20萬的公司然後去申請國際貿易我就來狂"},{"start":11988.278,"end":12009.924,"text":"標那個國防部的採購案然後再去跟銀行借錢貸款來繳保證金反正到最後要交貨的時候我說不好意思我交不了我公司倒閉就好然後國防部拿不到這些武器所以你的敵人根本不需要射一顆飛彈他就用這些就可以搞倒你的軍事採購所以這件事情是讓我們看到一個"},{"start":12011.426,"end":12027.248,"text":"東西就是國會的質詢不是找國防部麻煩而是協助國防部一起把漏洞補起來我的利益點只是這樣所以我一直不是在談押標金沒不沒收或餘額保證金沒不沒收因為你要KYC之後這個人如果有風險"},{"start":12028.843,"end":12047.522,"text":"小事情只是火藥沒有辦法交付萬一他拿了以後去交付給恐怖組織怎麼辦他如果拿到了拿到我們國防部的不是我是說萬一啦萬一他拿了我們國防部的合約去取得一些授權然後東西拿到之後他做了什麼事我們不知道我是說萬一啦"},{"start":12047.962,"end":12070.311,"text":"我們國防部沒有授權他沒有啦我是說是他要取得當地政府的授權他拿到你的合約對不對然後他去取得當地政府的授權之後他拿到了這批貨但是他最後他沒有交給國防部而是交給恐怖組織這個都是風險會不會發生我不知道但是希望是從來都不可能有這個機會所以我還是講的那個重點啦"},{"start":12072.185,"end":12077.938,"text":"這些來投標的公司是不是我們還是要特別了解他的狀況是怎麼樣我想"},{"start":12079.318,"end":12106.349,"text":"真正會侵害國家安全的絕對不是立法院的質詢而是我們貿然的讓這些菜鳥公司加入這種軍火的國家隊然後而且部長您也真的不宜說這個不用管資本額不用管背景不用管什麼然後只要拿到原廠輸出許可就好我覺得這句話也不負責任因為你永遠不知道公司他會玩哪一招然後再來"},{"start":12107.429,"end":12130.832,"text":"真正會傷害國家安全的是因為部長我們的採購如果讓敵人知道這麼的鬆散那這個會不會有什麼問題這個會不會讓你的敵人找到破洞然後來像我剛剛講的我就叫一些公司來標你國防部的案子反正到時候每一個都讓你沒有辦法履約我只是讓你扣走我的錢而已嘛但是你的國防就產生真空"},{"start":12132.003,"end":12151.352,"text":"孫子兵法第一句兵者詭盜也所以你在面對敵人他就是兵不厭詐他會跟你玩任何一招這就是我們希望要把這個洞補起來的原因所以部長跟我也報告因秘密的就是他的一個傷源的取得不易所以因秘密的其實是在於他取得傷源是"},{"start":12152.072,"end":12174.814,"text":"我可以理解 我也認同國安採購隱秘密而且很多東西是不得已也辛苦 這我都能理解但是我還是拜託國安部你最近爆發出來的那個什麼一個賣茶葉的10萬塊的那個公司去標到1000多萬的案子他說他連投標都沒有去然後就說得標了像這種東西不管背後他最後做的有沒有成國人會害怕"},{"start":12175.775,"end":12192.951,"text":"國人真的會擔心你們是廣徵裁員還是變成會廣徵漏洞因為剛剛委員提到這應該沒有超過150萬的小額採購他是依照採購法49條用這個郵寄投票的方式這是依照採購法的相關規定我跟部長再報告一次事情"},{"start":12193.832,"end":12215.567,"text":"依照採購法這個絕對沒有問題但是國防的採購絕對不是說我合法就好國防採購應該是一個跟商務採購是完全不一樣的因為部長您一直把重心放在這兩天你一直把重心放在我可以沒收他的履約保證金但是這個是民事訴訟的律師在做的因為你無法履約產生問題公司有損害"},{"start":12216.788,"end":12236.654,"text":"補錢就好了嘛但是國家安全有漏洞我們補的是人命所以我才會這麼在乎這件事情我們希望說來投標的公司國防部能不能夠更嚴謹的去面對而不是說他只要符合採購法的相關規定那其他我就都不管了那小額採購他甚至是一些資訊設備那這些資訊設備有沒有問題"},{"start":12239.295,"end":12259.095,"text":"所以那個老闆直接說他說這個就是好勵志這是一個好勵志的故事我一個10萬塊的賣茶的然後我飆到這樣的案子那其實這個都會讓國人會擔心那您一直跟我講對 它都完全符合採購法但是我相信國防採購我們不能等閒視之因為採購法有問題我們可以用錢補"},{"start":12263.218,"end":12286.712,"text":"資訊服務重要的當然是因為他在這個旅業的階段我們會經營區會做人員查核然後他在製作的時候我們都會在場然後驗收我們也會查核他的資安嘛這個又是另外一個我們會有一個嚴謹的一個過程這樣最後幾句話 部長你一直說國防經的其考驗是不是國防部可以立刻針對這期採購案"},{"start":12289.514,"end":12302.162,"text":"的資格審查標準廠商誠信還有資金來源我們能夠請政風還有工程會跟審計單位下去下去來查這件事好不好給國人讓國人安心可以嗎"},{"start":12303.215,"end":12327.987,"text":"我想委員如果有任何的爭議都歡迎提出給任何的第三工程單位來進行調查我的意思是說可不可以麻煩你們就我剛講那三個點然後你們國防部裡面這有政風嘛那有工程會我們可以找工程會還有審計單位我們先把這個事情先理清楚啦我還是這樣國防非常非常重要我百分之百支持國防我也痛恨傷害我們國家安全的人但是齊構不能夠讓"},{"start":12331.429,"end":12352.622,"text":"軍備有真空啦 我的想法只是這樣好不好 再麻煩部長好 謝謝委員指教好 謝謝 謝謝有一些不是都是用隱秘密來說詞這個部分也請國防部注意有些他就是應該他是公開的來源好 接下來 謝謝接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":12365.478,"end":12371.4,"text":"你好 我們請國安局長跟部長請蔡局長 顧部長 謝謝好 委員好部長好 局長好局長和部長不知道有沒有注意到最近有一個蠻大的新聞那是在烏克蘭的一個水下無人艇的一個奇襲那據傳烏克蘭方面指出這個俄軍的機構級潛艇有遭到重創"},{"start":12394.799,"end":12412.401,"text":"我們從這個案例我們看到 烏克蘭他用的是水面下的載具在俄國的港內打擊他們的艦艇過去我們講到戰爭的時候 可能都是講前線或者是直接面對面的這種 也不是面對面 就是直接的衝突"},{"start":12413.882,"end":12427.935,"text":"現在包含從租網行動到這一次的行動我們看到有很多的狀況是在敵後從水下港內到隱蔽的去滲透的延伸這跟國安局的情報的取得是有直接的關係"},{"start":12428.996,"end":12445.236,"text":"那不對稱的手段要打到要害那首先就是情節爭我們要得到資訊知道敵方的或者是對方的這一些資產戰略資產或者是戰術的資產什麼時候在什麼地方出現那我們可以採用什麼樣的方式去完成我們自我防衛的目標"},{"start":12446.417,"end":12472.757,"text":"那我看到說我們國防預算的編列我們不管是在彈藥的採購上面不管是在這個情監偵的資源的投資上面我想請教對於這一種演練特別是這種在敵後的可能性的去消耗敵方的資源的演練目前 因為這一次的這個烏克蘭用的這種方式它是由他們的反情報局跟海軍協同去處理"},{"start":12473.615,"end":12499.21,"text":"那我方當然是有在發展自己的潛艦國造有沒有去假想中國利用他在國內的這一種情報人員的資源得知我國的潛艦在何時何地會在什麼地方停泊那可能用類似的狀況來去執行他們的敵後任務不知道這個方式局長有什麼樣的掌握以及海軍可以做什麼樣的反制嗎"},{"start":12500.783,"end":12516.278,"text":"我大概先就我的部分跟委員做個說明那就俄烏戰場上的一些發展的趨勢我們確實有在關注那正如委員所提到的那烏軍他在很多的戰場的一個創意上他發揮了非常多的創意我們有在注意"},{"start":12516.818,"end":12537.851,"text":"委員所提到的是會不會中共用類似的手法來對我們境內也來發動類似的攻擊當然這一部分我們有類似的專案來提醒到有沒有相關管制物品來入關的一個查驗這是第一部分第二部分當然也有國內的可能中共的協力者不是針對那些所謂的竊密協力者"},{"start":12538.271,"end":12551.918,"text":"而是它的一個協力者他可能有一些武裝 攻擊或專業相關背景知識的名單的管制那這一部分我們也有在做一些的掌握那也請我們相關國安情報單位要注意到這些特定的對象或團體"},{"start":12553.519,"end":12571.813,"text":"我們無人載具的演練因為我們沒有辦法也不希望永遠都不要有這樣實質上面的這種攻擊的行為或者是防衛的行為因為這代表說我們沒有辦法阻止或者是嚇阻戰爭但是萬一有這樣的狀況出現的話我們必須要具備這樣的能力一方面是反制"},{"start":12572.513,"end":12595.622,"text":"就是反對他們的介入就是說嚇阻他們的介入或者是知道說讓中方知道說我們知道烏克蘭有利用類似這樣的狀況去擊毀俄羅斯的潛艦我們有做好防範所以包含像這樣子今天我們在國會的質詢公開的資訊把它揭露出來就是說我們有準備我們有防範我們會監視這個我們的海港各個重要的"},{"start":12596.802,"end":12615.462,"text":"我們重要艦艇的海港我們會有這些人員的這種防護那不然跟警政署也好或軍隊的這個巡邏也好我們都會有做好注意但是我認為像這種的能力海軍跟我們的官局也好或者是其他的情報單位也好我們必須要掌握說"},{"start":12616.963,"end":12637.268,"text":"中國方面的這些重要的港口他們什麼時候有什麼樣重要的資產在那邊那我們可以做一個嚇阻的力量說我們或許有這樣的能力所以我們的水面下的無人載具的這一個能夠去測試能夠去演練的地點那就非常重要就我所知現在主要是在高雄跟蘇澳會有"},{"start":12639.469,"end":12663.36,"text":"隨便下的無人載具可以去做測試有沒有可能考慮再多這個試辦或者是說多擴大我知道都是要申請即可但有沒有辦法就是提供一些更基礎的建設讓更多的中小企業 新創產業 創新產業能夠在他們除了製造之外能夠有地方去做訓練不知道部長有沒有什麼樣的回應我們請中科院來好 院長"},{"start":12671.758,"end":12699.588,"text":"我們除了那個在海上實際測試以外現在我們主要的測我們是用水槽第一個就是金屬中心它在高雄協定有一個大型的水槽第二個成大有它的水槽第三個就是海委會的海研所他們現在正在也在建置另外一個水槽這是我們都可以提供給國內業界來使用的謝謝院長除了這個測試之外我的意思是說演練就是假設場景那跟海軍執行這種訓練的話"},{"start":12702.253,"end":12721.998,"text":"如果是這樣的話我們會協助這些企業來申請和執行因為我們要的是它執行的能量而不是它數據上面的展示而已因為很多時候他們不是用最好的水面載具或者水下載具可能都是拼湊出來尤其他們的工業的資源跟能力不見得比台灣好但是他們就去執行這樣子的能力那我們"},{"start":12723.258,"end":12746.628,"text":"中共沒有什麼實戰經驗但很遺憾的是台灣我們不遺憾 值得慶幸但我們也沒有類似的經驗所以演練 演習就非常重要所以我把我們看到的包含一些因為我們未來民雄航太園區會有那民雄航太園除了這個空中飛行的載具之外其實有一些廠商跟一些企業都開始有"},{"start":12747.368,"end":12770.297,"text":"關注到這些他們想要做水面水下載具那我不希望他們只是做出來我希望他們可以實質參與海軍的假想的演練那這樣的話才可以符合我們實際上的作戰的需求有跟委員報告現在除了就無人載具我們包含無人機還有無人狗還有無人水面艦我們都有協助業界在做相關的測試和訓練"},{"start":12772.598,"end":12795.207,"text":"訓練訓練更重要好謝謝謝謝院長那部長那接下來就是要請教部長那局長可以先回謝謝部長關於這一個全球衛星的導航系統我們現在主要最常用的是GPS那主要就是GPS也好那我們主要是希望得到的是定位導航跟這一個"},{"start":12796.187,"end":12824.257,"text":"授實的服務 時間那很多跨系統協同的基礎那很重要的就是時間跟圖像那兩個結合在一起那接下來我們台灣要這個投資在TDOM那本質上我們要可靠的這個時間同步才可以做到協同但是我們知道在遇到衝突的場域的時候很多時候我們的這種全球衛星的導航系統GNSS或者是GPS也好一定會受到阻擾"},{"start":12825.217,"end":12839.777,"text":"所以system of system就是備援的這種狀況或者是過去可能是以中軌道為主接下來包含這地面的跟PNT衛星或者是低軌衛星的這些系統是否已經納入建軍的需求"},{"start":12840.638,"end":12854.611,"text":"因為現在我們的國軍自通信的韌性的專案衛星服務的租用是46億餘元賴總統在先前1.25兆的國防特別預算有宣布衛星跟通訊的編列是125億元"},{"start":12856.392,"end":12874.737,"text":"這些專案中我目前沒有仔細看到應該說沒有明確看到PNT衛星就是Position Navigation跟Timing的這個備援的壽司體系的投資不知道這方面部長針對這個PNT衛星或者是備援的PNT是不是已經納入建軍的需求我們請"},{"start":12877.338,"end":12904.126,"text":"跟委員報告有關於PNT的能力的提升跟設施的部分我們在前面的幾個軍購案包含F16V Block擺動我們就已經納進去我們未來更新的規劃那新的特別預算裡面我們相關的項目著重在系統整合的部分當然這個部分也是未來我們規劃一個重點因為它是防空作戰裡面不可或缺的一環所以這個我們後續如果"},{"start":12905.202,"end":12927.34,"text":"委員有需要的話我們會另外再跟委員做說明好 這一個我們必須要假設因為其實包含美國的一些重要智庫都有把太空威脅那有去做一個整合評估那有把中方跟俄羅斯在特別是俄羅斯在烏克蘭實戰中所使用的各種的jamming的方式都一一的來去把它揭發揭示出來"},{"start":12928.181,"end":12950.837,"text":"接著出來之後我們可以理解到說GPS或者是包含之前有太陽風暴這些基本上GPS是有曾經失靈的狀況所以備援系統是非常重要的除了我們常常講的地軌衛星之外它的地面的設施包含BPS或者是增強型的羅蘭等等我想這些"},{"start":12952.472,"end":12972.905,"text":"都是我們必須要全面納入考量的所以我們講到太空的時候大家可能第一時間就講到是不管是中軌衛星 低軌衛星那地面設施的建置跟全面性的假設全部都被遮就是被遮罩或者是被阻斷的話那怎麼樣維持在地面上還沒有被阻斷的整個去做替換 及時的做替換"},{"start":12973.886,"end":12983.837,"text":"那我想這是我們接下來的挑戰那再麻煩國防部可以提供給我們一些資訊看我們可以怎麼樣來協助是 我們私下再跟委員做一個說明好 謝謝部長好 謝謝接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢"},{"start":13000.677,"end":13008.64,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國安部的顧部長以及國安局的蔡局長一起好不好請顧部長 蔡局長兩位長官好今天我想很多人注意到我們的國安部也提出來了說去中心化"},{"start":13025.097,"end":13043.762,"text":"到底是什麼意思你說過去一個演習也用過過去來講我們看到是總部軍團部隊那現在怎麼樣是任何一個部隊都可以實施第一級是不是我們沒有這麼說我們是防衛作戰"},{"start":13045.476,"end":13068.835,"text":"對 防衛作戰隊啊 這個過去來講從你上年的國防部長就講過啊第一級只要進入我們的領空 進入我們領海就第一級啊我們會有對應變的一些各項的狀況我們做應變的處置的一些相關的規定沒有沒有沒有 我想問你第一級可以不可以由你的去中心化來執行 可不可以我想我們都是在進行自衛"},{"start":13069.875,"end":13084.241,"text":"我知道 自衛的第一級嘛自衛的第一級所以我們對於相關的狀況會有一些律定如何在合乎交戰規則的情況下進行合法的自衛外面的人一般的了解大家的了解就是去中心化就是沒有最高指揮了這個也不是統帥下令了也不是國防部長下令了一個部隊就可以開槍了是這個意思嗎"},{"start":13099.858,"end":13122.435,"text":"跟委員報告 在這個報告裡面已經有說明了是落敵 突然發起攻擊對啊 突然發起啊大陸突然發起我們的 就我們的什麼單位你說一個連長可以嗎 還是一個一個兵就可以了 還是總算有個層級吧對 所以他亂發起這樣的一個軍事攻擊我們當然就可以合法行使自衛權"},{"start":13123.157,"end":13128.964,"text":"那他是誰他是誰任何一個層級所以任何一個層級就是不管他的位階多高乃至於這個就到基層的一個兵也可以是不是這個意思但是跟委員強調這一段主要是在說明"},{"start":13139.858,"end":13155.178,"text":"剛剛我已經有回覆馬委員的問題了就是說這一段主要在強調我們承受了這一個中國的第一級之後我們如果發生最壞的這樣子的一個情況之下我們必須要根據"},{"start":13156.46,"end":13171.152,"text":"每一個部隊所授予的這個任務在合乎交戰規則的情況之下來遂行他的任務那他這個在這種我這樣問你啦比較因為我時間有限這個沒辦法聽你講得唱片大論我不要聽得很清楚這樣講好了過去已經發生過了他的無人機上到我們的金馬的上空要不要打下來"},{"start":13181.108,"end":13205.395,"text":"我們律定就是說就這種無人機如果它進入我們的領空範圍之內我們是可以合法的把它進行對 不要你下令 就是那個部隊這個是因為就面對這樣出難的一個狀況它要實施應對嘛就它就可以了 對不對你不怕擦槍作火它是無人機它是無人機 那其他的飛機呢"},{"start":13206.685,"end":13225.564,"text":"其他有人危機那就要看他有沒有對我們實施一個攻擊的好 我請教那個蔡局長其他國家有沒有這樣子部隊指揮變成區中心化有沒有這次的俄烏戰場確實這是一個新的議題那歐洲國家有不少的討論"},{"start":13226.764,"end":13247.274,"text":"是不是都這樣做其他國家都這樣做美國這樣做嗎沒有 討論的場景大概是在於說假如你的中央化的中心化的一個指揮管制體系出現問題的話怎麼樣有一個比較非中央化的運作機制我就請問你美方對於這樣子區域中心化的做法是什麼有 有在討論 有這樣的討論有沒有實施 討論討論因為這是一個在歐戰場上發現的一個新的好 第二個問題我請教部長"},{"start":13256.759,"end":13279.931,"text":"這個看到中國大陸跟日本因為這個高斯藻苗的言論他的敵意一直升高在這個看到發生過J15火控雷達照射日本的F15日本當然說這是他的偵察任務總共是說這個我在訓練的時候你來滋擾了"},{"start":13283.307,"end":13306.923,"text":"來來來 先請教局長你們得到的資訊是哪一個比較對啊日本講得對還是老共講得對啊就那個現場的狀況來講我們的理解是共機因為已經在日本周邊的空域活動所以日本他當然有派出他的戰鬥機上去所以日本已經在活動了老共已經在活動了"},{"start":13307.483,"end":13325.706,"text":"日本闖進去的是這個意思不是 因為他已經活動範圍已經有點靠近到日本周邊的空域所以日本有戰鬥機起來但是老共的那個相關的雷達的搜索去鎖定到日本的戰機那日方覺得那是我就問你嘛是誰先啟動的嘛是他在那裡"},{"start":13327.477,"end":13341.588,"text":"訓練在前還是日本的飛機先飛我當然是中共的中共的先嘛所以你這兩個講起來的話就變成老共講得比較準啦也沒有啦是不是這個意思你剛剛就這個意思啊沒有沒有我也要看一下日方的一些說明"},{"start":13342.651,"end":13367.243,"text":"怎麼美國對這個態度都點點沒有沒有我剛剛也跟那個陳俊宇委員在做說明的是12月的6號發生了這個事件之後美國在12月8號兩天之後馬上跟日本啟動了美國航母編隊的軍事演訓來 那個請教顧部長啊今天如果老共的飛機來了我們F什麼上來了然後他也這樣子火控雷達照我們"},{"start":13372.645,"end":13393.705,"text":"我們可不可以視為出欄他出欄的要我們就是這個去中心化直接反擊可不可以我想如果他有對我們進行鎖定的話我們就要判斷他的一個意圖要不要直接開火如果他鎖定我們而且有一個攻擊的一個傾向我們當然可以合法的行使自衛權"},{"start":13395.346,"end":13412.067,"text":"這個要 他講得很清楚喔因為委員講的是鎖定喔對啊 鎖定啊他這個火控雷達照射就鎖定啊那我們已經這個整個飛機上的警報器都已經響了喔已經是被他鎖定了喔他要進行意圖要進行攻擊啊日本為什麼被鎖定日本都沒有去打他這個我想"},{"start":13415.29,"end":13425.388,"text":"對於這樣子的一個判斷那就是日本要在當下要去判斷他到底對於他的雷達這樣的一個照射是不是已經造成一種鎖定要進行攻擊"},{"start":13427.869,"end":13445.184,"text":"那我再請教國安局長這個高市長苗現在他的議論當然沒有說回去台灣有事的事情但是他特別又澄清說日本要採取集體自衛權對象相當優先他就提到美國"},{"start":13446.425,"end":13474.114,"text":"有沒有報告台灣我想那個高市首相他在強調的是集體智慧權的行使必須要同盟國家之間才能啟動集體智慧權所以台灣沒有啊現在跟日本簽訂同盟條約的確實是美國但是在美日同盟的架構之下他們可能共同應處各種不同的事態那這個部分高市首相在前面的說明有提到台灣要是有事的話是涉及到危及存亡事態"},{"start":13474.834,"end":13488.358,"text":"這個高斯的講法是不是間接的就要把他的話收回去一半沒有沒有日本後來內閣有對這方面做說明蔡警長請回最後一個問題我請教郭部長剛才你又回答幾個委員的題目你在禮拜一的時候我有諮詢過相當的題目你一直強調只要他能夠交貨"},{"start":13502.622,"end":13510.968,"text":"就可以了管他背景是什麼公司名稱是什麼都不要管其實那一句話你那一句話 黎巴宜那一句話對你是很傷的"},{"start":13512.305,"end":13533.606,"text":"對你是很傷的因為我們都知道這不是軍事採購特別軍事採購政府採購法就明明規定有積極的資格有財務能力資本額下限最近一年的財報大家看的還有過去要有一年內"},{"start":13535.608,"end":13553.972,"text":"一定年限內完成類似的採購法要承讓一定的金額以上這都是政府採購法以及實質細則明明白白講的不是只有你講說他只要能交貨只要能交貨 不是這樣喔我們的政府採購法訂得這麼清楚而且你這個錢這個這個浮脈這個錢是5.9億 將近6億這麼大的一筆金額"},{"start":13563.823,"end":13578.299,"text":"清清楚楚有積極資格還有消極資格那個消極資格某種程度就對於你那個那個大使就是一個要排除掉了他不能夠有判刑的紀錄到裡面寫得很清楚啊政府採購法規政府採購時事細則訂了這麼清楚積極資格跟消極資格部長啊"},{"start":13585.066,"end":13587.609,"text":"你前天講的話老實講你是賭池喔你是賭池喔你怎麼可以把這個ignore怎麼把它就視而不見只要他交貨那就好了你沒想過說那180天以後他如果沒有辦法交怎麼辦我們就炸掉就不要了這個且不要講"},{"start":13605.669,"end":13619.199,"text":"你說你是律師出身的 你都不守法你們要看這個 積極資格 要看財務啊而且要看過他以前做過的一些案件都要看啊 怎麼可以不看呢"},{"start":13621.241,"end":13637.036,"text":"跟委員報告我想我已經說明得很清楚了我們過去20年來都是採同樣的一個資格這是先說明我們都一律公開招標也合乎相關政府採購法的相關的規定那至於您講的這些有關巨額的這個部分呢"},{"start":13637.436,"end":13653.71,"text":"他本來就是得並不是因那對於我們相關的這些資格的一個認定我們過去以來都因為就火藥原物料的這個取得我們認為他只要取得輸出許可證明我再講一句話就好了這是必要喔必要必要這是必要這是required這不是說可以讓你得是必要"},{"start":13661.537,"end":13674.842,"text":"沒有時間的關係 主任時間的關係如果你們講的跟昨天一樣 那請提供書面就好請回應我們委員的質詢 謝謝接下來請謝龍介委員上台質詢"},{"start":13696.788,"end":13701.614,"text":"主席我請部長跟局長請部長還有蔡局長好 委員好部長辛苦了部長我們都很尊重你的專業有時候也不需要太過動氣"},{"start":13716.618,"end":13744.945,"text":"本來全世界都一樣嘛就針對國防採購就是非常謹慎那這也不是說一般公共工程在採購所以他涉及到我們國安的這個風險那還有一些專門專業的門檻還有高度的管制等等所以大家當然會比較在意如果你只說他有違法我有扣他的保證金或怎麼樣那當然"},{"start":13745.888,"end":13758.596,"text":"我們是不能接受所以這是 跟你問這是沒有範疑啦大家針對這個問題在探討的時候你千萬不能想起 當然我看你對我是沒有啦但是我看你對別的委員都像我這樣想很難開我請教你"},{"start":13770.984,"end":13797.553,"text":"我從今天你們的報告就提到中國大陸跟菲律賓在這個仁愛礁還有先兵礁民主礁這裡打水炮然後驅趕那你說他是在阻止菲律賓從事補給以及逼迫其放棄該據點"},{"start":13801.22,"end":13806.023,"text":"我不知道為什麼我們的國家沒有發出嚴正聲明這是我們的領土這是憲法規定我們中華民國的領土怎麼可以容許他們仰照在這我們的領土上面胡作非為呢局長你沒有發表聲明啊"},{"start":13826.425,"end":13837.929,"text":"國安局的角色我們會針對相關的狀況來做研判那總統也沒有講話啊社外單位外交部也沒有講話啊那在我們家呢啊一個剎那一個土匪啊在我們家玩架說黑人的啊我們都經常不出聲你要怎麼堆在中華民國你是中華民國的國安局局長"},{"start":13856.135,"end":13857.135,"text":"是不是這樣你覺得這樣有利嗎 你今天報告寫得很清楚啊現在是宣告我們中華民國放棄了這些主權嗎對不對不可思議啊我可以開始在這陣報告之後台南鄉親就靠電話跟我說怎麼會變成這樣啊"},{"start":13887.466,"end":13889.829,"text":"你竟然拿來國會報告到這樣所以你是同意中國大陸把我們跟菲律賓管理開這個地方還是不同意"},{"start":13904.417,"end":13916.521,"text":"不過我想政府對於那個南海政策立場是實際上之前都有對外做一些說明啦什麼說明對 也就是我們擁有南海地區擁有擁有的我們會在我們家兩個點的燒賣在那裡玩家在那裡賀罪燒盤我們還要點點"},{"start":13922.745,"end":13933.374,"text":"不過可能委員也理解一下喔 除了那個相關的主權的聲明的立場的闡述以外那他畢竟涉及到的是整個區域政治比較複雜的狀況區域政治哪有複雜喔 來 要講區域政治來 我請教你日本首相國旗遮錶喔"},{"start":13940.717,"end":13966.375,"text":"你說台灣有事情 就是日本有事情這是我前陣子在這裡跟你請教的時候 我有跟你講因為老總統 曾經在一年多前他說要聯合有我的民主國家對中國大陸造成軍事上的威懾力是不是這樣 你說是 好 來今天日本找那個高市首相上車了"},{"start":13967.827,"end":13996.639,"text":"他說台灣有事就是日本有事造成中國大陸跟日本現在高度緊張的狀況之下我請教你如果日本有事我們台灣會不會有事要不要有事事實上我們最近的報告大家有提到現在整個印太地區的狀況很多的安全情勢都是連動的它本來就是連動的日本跟大陸有事現在日本有事我們中華民國要不要有事"},{"start":13997.506,"end":14025.802,"text":"那看委員對於那個有事的定義是什麼我剛剛的說明是安全情是就以日本對我們台灣有事的定義一樣啊你要不要有事啊但是委員講到的日本對有事的定義是他的法制面他有對於有事的一些假見今天大陸 中國大陸如果跟日本有軍事衝突台灣要不要介入你要不要出兵不中總統剛有交代說日本有事我們要出兵"},{"start":14026.99,"end":14055.814,"text":"我想如果說整個印太區域的第一島鏈剛剛局長也提到整個安全趨勢都是相關聯的那麼如果有發生一旦危及到我們台灣地區的這一個國家安全跟和平穩定的一個現狀的時候我們當然都要廣播立場當然都要採取相對應的適切的行動適切的行動是有卡點出兵這是總統的意思這是總統的意思嗎"},{"start":14056.564,"end":14074.962,"text":"我想我們沒有辦法去回答您總統有指示過嗎剛剛講的有事到底是在什麼樣狀況就是中國大陸跟日本如果發生了軍事衝突什麼樣的軍事衝突擦槍著火一瞬間可能現在我們談話的當下就可能會發生那我們要不要出兵"},{"start":14075.799,"end":14095.996,"text":"您講的軍事衝突是指全面的戰爭還是小規模的所以你的意思是內部有研議如果是小規模的軍事衝突我們是置之不理 繼續觀察我想任何的狀況我們都會做適切的回應但是我們沒有辦法在這裡回答一些假設性的問題"},{"start":14097.037,"end":14123.859,"text":"那麼委員必須要具體的說明你講的有事是什麼樣子的一個狀態日本說台灣有事就是日本有事啊現在日本有事了我們說我們要看看這樣會讓日本的鄉親日本的朋友會看我們沒有道義耶我想日本首相的講得很清楚就是說一旦台海發生中國對台灣進行軍事的一個攻擊的時候就是日本的"},{"start":14124.865,"end":14149.184,"text":"存立危機的一個事態他的表達就是如此所以他就是要軍事制裁我想他就是說明一個存立危機的一個事態那如果中國大陸跟日本現在有了軍事衝突我們要不要比照日本一樣的總統有沒有在國安會議裡面做過這一些指示啊所以我還是要請委員確定的說明所謂軍事衝突指的是什麼"},{"start":14150.2,"end":14177.731,"text":"假如今天是在這個釣魚台他們兩兆發生了軍事衝突我們要不要主張釣魚台是中華民國的領土我想我們會根據我們的應變區內所有涉及到我們應變區內所有應該做的處置我們都會做處置那我們也會維護我們的主權跟我們的相關的安全如果他們兩兆的"},{"start":14179.605,"end":14204.14,"text":"的艦艇在這個釣魚台12海里以內然後發生搏擊 火力搏擊那我們要不要出兵我們都會適切的來根據當時的狀況做一個應處那釣魚台是不是我們中華民國的領土我想我們現在的主張沒有改變主張是什麼 你主張是是還是不是啊"},{"start":14204.909,"end":14223.985,"text":"我們就一直主張我們擁有嘛我們擁有所以那就是我們的嘛那為什麼我們的漁民到那邊會被驅趕這個是台日雙方有這樣的一個協議沒有喔 馬政府的時候是我們的漁民當時我們簽了協定以後我們的漁民到那邊空間很大啊所以我剛剛已經講了嘛"},{"start":14231.857,"end":14258.766,"text":"中國大陸現在經常戰鬥機就到釣魚台去繞一繞那如果在這邊擦槍著火所以部長還是不能肯定我們會不會介入所以今天日本有事台灣不一定會有事中國也經常的在我們台海周邊從事軍事挑釁我們都有辦飛 我們都有起飛我們都有對他相對應的支持但是釣魚台我們沒有"},{"start":14261.732,"end":14286.193,"text":"在我們的應變區範圍內我們所以是釣魚台就是我們應變不足的區域啊那太平島呢我想我們對於所有的這個狀況我們都會有一個適切的一個應處的規範那我想如果委員需要知道我們私下再跟委員做一個說明好 蘇哈你給我知道一下好不好沒中"},{"start":14288.755,"end":14304.246,"text":"我今天要跟你們說 你們的報告裡面對菲律賓和中國大陸在我們的領土裡面這樣然後你們還大剌剌的拿出來講好像不干我們中華民國的事 這我本身看不下去我們台灣的鄉親也看不下去 他覺得這樣是在出賣資金的好不好 我們大家共同不用理他"},{"start":14311.963,"end":14314.426,"text":"謝謝 針對剛剛我們謝榮介委員提到的這個部分部長 我想連你在這裡都沒有辦法分辨出說什麼時候你可以展開可能回籍"},{"start":14327.163,"end":14331.006,"text":"所以要基層的官士兵因為我們剛剛一直在講去中心化的指揮是不帶命令即可作戰的這個部分我們一定要把它釐清清楚如果連部長現在都沒有辦法釐清說什麼時候我們可以回擊可以展開作戰這樣子的一個動作我想基層的官士兵更沒有辦法所以這個會引起很大的危險剛剛蔡局長說"},{"start":14350.382,"end":14352.265,"text":"俄烏戰爭這個是有被討論的俄烏戰爭現在是處於戰爭狀態他們已經打了快四年了可是我們在還沒有啟動戰爭狀態的情況之下我們的基層官士兵在什麼樣的情況之下可以不要中心指揮就可以"},{"start":14369.185,"end":14388.759,"text":"不帶命令可以作戰這個部分一定要講清楚一打下去這個不得了所以這個部分我們希望相關的單位一定要讓我們所有的官士兵還有我們所有全體國人非常清楚的知道這個部分接下來我們請王宏威委員上台質詢"},{"start":14397.958,"end":14423.027,"text":"謝謝主席首先感謝我們國防委員會剛才做的兩個決議那就針對現在有爭議性的那包含我們這個炸藥的相關的國防部的採購有兩個決議必須要符合相關的法規而且對於相關的程序跟價格也應該要做一些限制好那我想首先請那個蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":14431.362,"end":14460.061,"text":"好 局長好 局長我想請教一下國安局那如果對外採購如果是屬於具有這個敏感性或者是資安國安疑慮的標案或者是涉及國家安全採購的標案請問一下 像這樣的標案你們會不會標給資本額只有10萬元的公司"},{"start":14461.459,"end":14475.94,"text":"假如是比較機敏的標案當然我們有我們相關的發標跟發包跟那個招標的一個程序對 按照程序來做跟資格對不對那像這樣的有涉及國安資安的標案"},{"start":14476.961,"end":14497.061,"text":"會不會給一家就是他事實上是可能有人頭他就可能是一直不停的不停的轉一個人開了好幾家公司然後這裡面他所謂的專業人員是用工讀生請問國安局會不會就是有國安這樣規格的標案會標給這樣的公司"},{"start":14500.072,"end":14529.412,"text":"就管局這邊當然就像剛剛跟委員說明的啦我們一定的一個作業的程序那如果那如果有這樣子的就資本額很低只有十萬塊但是可以標到有關資安相關的電腦相關維護設備或者是他有曾經被告過詐欺或者是他其實主業是茶行然後他們可能只有兩個人其中還有工讀生"},{"start":14530.372,"end":14537.916,"text":"像這樣子的一個涉及國安資安的標案如果是這樣的程序發包局長請問一下這樣有沒有國安疑慮"},{"start":14541.687,"end":14556.833,"text":"對 一般 我想我的理解我剛有跟委員說明因為我不知道國防部的法規規範是什麼剛才部長講好多次了第一個部分當然是法規面第二個是在個案的標案裡面有沒有一些相關的條件像現在的狀況這是有一個具體的案例具體案例它就是"},{"start":14563.976,"end":14591.505,"text":"標給了一家資本額10萬塊這是不真的事實然後媒體也訪問到這家公司的負責人他主要是做茶葉那他說他是資訊管理系數德科技的資訊管理系那他說有人忙不過來就是另外一位他是用公讀生的方式然後另外他講到說他人沒有去他就標到了我要確定一下"},{"start":14592.725,"end":14612.811,"text":"像這樣子的狀況他有沒有國安的疑慮因為我們一直都很擔心我們被滲透對不對那如果有一個有心人士或者是境外敵對勢力他看到我們的標案這麼簡單他要成立一家資本額10萬塊的公司太容易了"},{"start":14613.351,"end":14632.035,"text":"他要找一個這個有資管背景資管科系畢業的人他兩個都不只他20個都可以他就可以來標國防部的這樣子具有機敏性跟資安的標案有沒有國安餘力我已經講了問了好多次"},{"start":14632.714,"end":14648.059,"text":"因為委員講的是一個非常特定的一個個案的標案那我就問這個個案會不會有國安疑慮那因為我對這個個案我比較不了解你就不敢講你不敢講說他沒有國安疑慮也不敢講他有國安疑慮好 時間暫停一下我們請那個顧部長好 謝謝委員請顧部長"},{"start":14654.622,"end":14682.275,"text":"好 部長你可以看到剛才局長非常辛苦他也不能打臉你他也不敢幫你背書那我要講的就是最近我們所陸續爆發出來的國防部的採購它的漏洞非常非常多它的門檻極為寬鬆而且你們沒有經過相關的資格的要求跟徵訊好 一個剛才講的今天討論了很多"},{"start":14683.075,"end":14685.796,"text":"我剛才說這絕對是國安漏洞任何一個人他只要來標國防部電腦維護你們還天天密件 機密件他通通可以看光光再來一個這個是我前一陣子所提出來的這個也是一個很確定的一家蜂蜜公司"},{"start":14705.346,"end":14721.996,"text":"這個蜂蜜公司它事實上在中科院已經把它列入為黑名單了是中科院已經確定列入黑名單然後減掉在今年起訴它以所謂的它有息產地問題有詐欺的問題但是在國防部繼續的把案子標給它"},{"start":14729.059,"end":14745.672,"text":"所以我要講的是一個這個查行我之前提到的他已經被很多包含法務部去告包含大學去告包含他去告立法院他也敗訴那另外這個風義公司呢他是直接被中科院列黑名單他也已經被檢調起訴的案子你們繼續標給他所以部長"},{"start":14753.338,"end":14766.488,"text":"這些案子整個下來 我知道你是律師 你剛剛回答賴思寶委員你是用律師的身份 你很會鑽這個法律漏洞但是我請問一下 我們連續這些標案的問題你認為國防部在整個的 在未來對外採購這些標案需不需要做檢討"},{"start":14776.138,"end":14803.536,"text":"柯文委員報告您剛講的有關那個紅樟茶葉的這個維護合約我們在這個廠商派出前我們就完成了人員的安全查核那另外在這個維護的期間都有專責人員陪同施作那我們在驗收的時候也會有採購單位依規定再次實施系統的檢核你們怎麼查核 他人都沒到耶"},{"start":14804.005,"end":14809.97,"text":"沒有資安餘領 您講的沒有人沒有到那是指招標那因為這個是屬於小額的採購的服務合約所以他依照採購法的49條本來就可以用郵寄來投標那我剛剛講的是他在履約的階段他得標之後我們要做人員查核安全的查核那你知道他有被告"},{"start":14824.983,"end":14846.724,"text":"我們有專責人員來陪同然後我們要檢核那你有知道我提出來的他有被地檢署告有被大學告知道嗎另外我想已經說明這個是軍威公司你又迴避問題了軍威公司你講的是軍威公司他從來沒有參與本部跟所屬單位的標案這個負責人有被告啊"},{"start":14849.913,"end":14854.698,"text":"對 那這個負責人的被告的結果這個公司的停權是由軍威公司被停權那是在108年的5月24號到111年的5月23日跟我們現在講的鴻章茶行它的得標是在111年的11月沒有關聯"},{"start":14871.263,"end":14890.81,"text":"所以這全部都這兩個人耶他的重點就是他被告完了之後再用另外一個人頭再去成立一家公司這個負責人他也講說哇現在這麼多爭議我們再去成立一家公司就好啦對他自己都承認了好來那我剛才講的豐益公司呢豐益公司他已經被起訴你們仍然去讓他參與標案而且標給他"},{"start":14895.55,"end":14910.367,"text":"就這個部分我們現在已經在我們的這個相關的標案裡面說明就是說他一旦被中科院因為這個相關的國安法的一些規定比如說他去"},{"start":14913.487,"end":14931.805,"text":"那個大陸的地區這樣子的一個問題然後被中間列入黑名單的時候我們把它列入我們把它列入這個不能夠投沒有具有投標的一個資格我們現在已經把它列入了"},{"start":14932.521,"end":14950.423,"text":"現在才列入但是中科院去年就把它列入了我們原來是在這個履約的階段來那個那現在進一步把它列入這一個不能夠來進行投票你們這些標案你承不承認裡面有漏洞甚至可能會有國安疑慮呢"},{"start":14951.674,"end":14960.696,"text":"我想每一個個案的狀況不同我們每一個個案都會來不斷的檢討那關於火藥原物料的部分我已經說明的相當清楚我們用合約來進行控管所以我第一時間那麼在這個您剛剛講的資訊的服務的部分我們也有相關的規範那風鈺公司的這個部分呢我們原來是在履約的階段來加以控管那現在進一步從招標的資格也加以控管"},{"start":14977.859,"end":15006.378,"text":"你覺得你們是不是應該依照工程會的相關的採購的這個辦法去執行呢這個在我前兩天的諮詢我也特別提出來剛才那個賴思寶委員也提出來投標廠商資格跟特殊及巨額採購認定標準要求具有時機具有一定的人力具有一定的財力這些至少要有這些相關的資格標準你們國防部應不應該"},{"start":15008.24,"end":15023.576,"text":"來比照辦理不然的話你們的門檻是在太多寬鬆嗎我們都會根據合約的一個性質本身來律定這個投票商的資格那至於你講的高額的部分這個是不是請採購室來沒關係 我跟你講市長不要再說明了因為特定資格"},{"start":15024.963,"end":15047.75,"text":"不用 你時間的關係 你用書面好了因為你們講的都一樣對 我覺得我們也不想聽你們像錄音帶一樣如果這樣子死不認錯明明都已經出現這些漏洞我們都一再的去提醒你們還不做 老實說這些案件不是最後 未來一定會有那我也要拜託國安局 也跟國防部溝通啊這個絕對有國安疑慮啊"},{"start":15050.971,"end":15066.258,"text":"怎麼可能是這樣子的一個狀況10萬塊錢公司請工讀生只有兩個人那請問一下都如入無人之境我們還在那邊講什麼反滲透法 國安法那你們自己本身就是一個大漏洞以上好 謝謝"},{"start":15070.069,"end":15075.414,"text":"我們兩天都聽到同樣的話因為馬祖有這麼多的官士兵被汰除因為他們把帳號借給人家我們今天提出來這麼多可能對廠商有疑慮的我們花了很多時間幫廠商在做說明在幫他們背書我們都不知道這些被汰除有一些甚至他們"},{"start":15094.744,"end":15105.293,"text":"在軍中服役了快要一二十年有的甚至更長他因為一些狀況就被汰除我們對這些為什麼他會這麼嚴謹我們居然對我們的廠商這麼寬宏大量不可思議謝謝接下來請黃仁黃仁黃仁委員不在請李昆城委員上台質詢"},{"start":15127.278,"end":15130.38,"text":"謝謝主席 我先請蔡局長請蔡局長局長好 辛苦了看到你們的報告有提到美盟強化第一島鏈共同防禦也提到說美日非加強協作著手在第一島鏈部署反艦導彈打擊網絡當然台灣是屬於第一島鏈的重中之重"},{"start":15155.095,"end":15168.97,"text":"你也提到說美國在12月初所提到的國家安全戰略裡面把印太地區定位為全球競爭的優先戰區提出維持關鍵航道的開放這應該是指台灣海峽嗎"},{"start":15170.083,"end":15195.576,"text":"當然包括區域裡面的關鍵航道還有強化美軍印太的前置部署盟友共同分擔的防務的三大核心的方向我先請教一下局長應該有看過美國最新版的國家安全戰略嗎有你怎麼樣來評估說這一份國家安全戰略對於全球還有區域權力分布還有台灣在這邊的角色的重要性"},{"start":15196.176,"end":15223.973,"text":"有 事實上剛剛也跟幾位不同委員有做過說明結果美國在這一次新版的國家安全戰略當中有表達他對於印太安全跟穩定的高度的關注那也特別提到了相關的軍事的因應的重點應該要聚焦在第一島鏈的部分那因為台灣在西太平洋第一島鏈扮演一個非常重要的角色那地理位置也非常的重要所以當國際的友盟在這個部分來提升他們的防衛能力以及我們剛剛圖示的"},{"start":15225.354,"end":15248.536,"text":"武器裝備的部份 那台灣該做什麼就台灣來講我們當然也要展現我們自我防衛的決心來提升我們自己的國防量能避免在整個島鏈防禦的態勢過程當中變成是一個防禦的真空那這樣子可能我們會承受到國際友盟對我們的不信任因為美國他有提到就是說他要求盟友承擔更多的安全責任 對不對"},{"start":15249.897,"end":15271.332,"text":"那台灣也不是只有這個作為這個晶片生產晶片重要的一個國家我們也是第一島鏈的關鍵的一個樞紐所以我就要請教局長這個美國的戰略有做調整從保護台灣走向共同威懾的體系所以我才會提到就是說台灣的這個重要性角色越來越重要"},{"start":15272.148,"end":15289.322,"text":"那這個台灣的戰略價值也提高了那我們的能力越大責任也越大那我們現在應該要負的責任是什麼我們現在負的責任跟過去有什麼不一樣在區域穩定當中在美國這個新版的這個國家安全責任當中"},{"start":15290.047,"end":15312.069,"text":"第一部分我想主要是在提升自己的自我防衛的能量那這部分當然要配合到國防部相關的一個國防投資建設的一個期程來逐一的一個推動那另外委員這邊有特別提到一個不對稱戰力的一個概念那我想這也是我們在提升台灣防禦戰力當中的一個重點的工作因為台灣"},{"start":15312.87,"end":15335.491,"text":"不會去跟周邊國家進行軍備競賽我們必須要針對我們的有限的資源投注在比較能夠在區域戰場上發揮我們量能的一些重點的項目但是目前就包括委員提到的不對稱戰力以及相關智能化的管理對 我就提到就是說目前我們的這一個不對稱戰力的特別預算目前都還沒有付為"},{"start":15337.084,"end":15353.571,"text":"接下來會不會因為這個不對稱的軍購預算沒有通過會變成說台灣就像局長剛才所講的我們未來這幾年在第一島鏈的重要性裡面我們變成一個中空容易被擊破的一個中間點"},{"start":15355.892,"end":15383.762,"text":"對 這有兩個面向的議題一個是軍事上的也就是委員提到的只要我們沒有自己的國防能力的提升的話它會變成是一個漏洞那我們自己也沒有辦法來防衛自己第二個是戰略上的在戰略上可能國際友盟會對台灣非常不信任當國際友盟在這邊加注相關的投資以及軍力的一個防衛的建設那台灣自己好像置身事外變成一個搭便車的角色那我們會喪失到國際上對我們的戰略信任"},{"start":15384.102,"end":15405.761,"text":"所以我想衝擊有軍事面跟戰略面好 那就戰略面來講的話局長現在有類似的訊息或是情報就是說因為我們的軍購的預算沒辦法付為也不知道接下來會不會做審查甚至有沒有辦法通過都是未定之數有沒有我們的盟友對於這件事情有不同的意見跟看法"},{"start":15406.081,"end":15424.935,"text":"有 剛剛也有人在提醒那事實上因為還在一個立法院的一個討論過程當中那我們能夠講的是假如真的是沒有通過相關預算的話那我們剛剛擔心的軍事面跟戰略面可能產生的衝擊那就會對我們國家造成的處境會比較負面一點那我請一下苦主好了 我們顧部長有關於這一個軍備預算"},{"start":15432.636,"end":15438.026,"text":"剛剛局長有就這個戰略面也有說了一些他的一些看法那部長呢"},{"start":15439.606,"end":15459.92,"text":"我想在前面回答幾位委員的問題已經有說明了就是說美國視台海為它的核心利益也就是台海的和平穩定是美國的核心利益那美國也希望台灣的自身防衛能力是一個有效嚇阻的一個關鍵前提所以我們一定要強化自我防衛能力"},{"start":15463.038,"end":15488.315,"text":"那當然就會形成可能會在這個我們站在第一島鏈的這個前緣我們不希望成為一個破口那目前看起來是有可能形成一個破口我們希望透過這個我們的國防預算也包括特別預算然後讓我們成為一個區域內共同形成對中國可能的一種軍事"},{"start":15489.11,"end":15502.442,"text":"的一種侵略的一個有效嚇阻的一環那我想我們以實力來形成嚇阻那以嚇阻來達成和平好我最後一個問題我請教一下局長不好意思我再請教一下蔡局長就最後一個問題很簡單謝謝那這個謝謝部長"},{"start":15509.893,"end":15527.345,"text":"這個黎智英現在因為被法官 香港的法官說他違反了這個香港的國安法說他什麼串謀勾結國外還有境外的勢力 危害這個國安權那這件事情再加上說前兩天有香港的民主黨派 民主黨也解散了"},{"start":15527.665,"end":15555.175,"text":"那等於說是新聞自由跟這個組黨參政都有可能在香港變成是一個危害這個他們港版國安法的一個模式那我想請這個局長怎麼來看待這件事情對 就中共他現在因為已經把香港內地化了然後透過新的國安法制來壓抑不同的一個聲音那所以可能在中國所謂的愛國人治港的原則之下我們可以看到在這一次的香港立法會的選舉"},{"start":15556.375,"end":15572.915,"text":"廢票率達到3.15%大概是歷來最高那在稍早的澳門的那個立法會選舉廢票率也高達7.5%那麼高所以我們可以看到香港民眾或是澳門的民眾在中共這種所謂的愛國"},{"start":15574.156,"end":15591.861,"text":"者自感或自傲的一個這種規劃之下大概相關的基本的言論自由或基本的人權都有慢慢流失的趨勢所以我們看到在立法會的選舉的這種民眾的這種廢票率就大概兩個選舉都是創下歷史最高的一個狀況"},{"start":15593.301,"end":15616.881,"text":"那所以這件事情對於國安局來講有沒有什麼樣的因為中共在稍早之前也提到說有所謂的愛國者治台的一個概念那所以我們剛剛跟委員說明的是以愛國者治港跟愛國者治澳的一個狀況可以看到這樣的一個治理對當地民眾來講是感到非常的失望那用這種廢票率很高的投票方式來表達他們的不滿"},{"start":15617.461,"end":15630.971,"text":"等於香港現在就沒有什麼新聞自由也沒有什麼樣的一個組黨的自由在野黨派也幾乎都被解散了好 謝謝局長 謝謝主席好 謝謝接下來請洪孟凱委員上台質詢主席謝謝 麻煩請顧立雄部長請顧部長"},{"start":15650.106,"end":15671.761,"text":"顧部長本席今天站在這邊是這幾天真的外界媒體大家都關注國防部的標案國防部的預算年度總預算從2016年馬政府最後一年的時候3000多億一年到現在成長到2027年明年年度總預算有到9000多億將近三倍的成長"},{"start":15672.842,"end":15695.127,"text":"那成長那麼大幅的情況下當然大家也會關心可是媒體報導有用顧部長更小燈燒起說連馬防部被詐團入侵都沒有看到我們國防部長那麼的生氣但是當委員在做質詢或是媒體在詢問我們這相關標案的時候部長卻動怒 爆金句"},{"start":15696.647,"end":15723.779,"text":"說我不用管到底廠商名字叫什麼說實在話廠商名字叫A叫B叫C但更重要是它合不合理是因為它過去有沒有實際以及它的資本額還有它的投標記錄為什麼這兩年國人要問的是以前可以賣茶葉的賣馬桶的裝潢的突然間在這幾年都搖身一變變成是軍品變成是我們國防部的採購的履約廠商這才是國人好奇跟起疑的地方"},{"start":15724.719,"end":15744.836,"text":"第一時間我們期待的是國防部長應該要針對這些部分再去啟動內機內控好好的釐清說到底這些廠商有沒有瑕疵中間有沒有哪個環境錯誤以及能不能未來屢約保證能夠安全無虞到期而不是說在這邊跟媒體也好或跟委員也好在大小聲"},{"start":15745.936,"end":15753.624,"text":"部長你可不可以理解現在國人大家對於國防部在這件事情處理的態度以及處理的狀況會讓國人覺得說其中更大的疑點重重部長跟委員報告我想剛剛委員會也已經通過了要求國防部對於"},{"start":15765.556,"end":15773.745,"text":"這個高爆風險原料的採購每批貨與原產地起因錢都會先依據這個國際海運的危險貨物相關規範我想我們都會來確實的要求廠商完成這些相關的運輸申報計畫的文件等等我想"},{"start":15785.017,"end":15799.016,"text":"就如同我之前一再講到了我們對於這樣子的一個廣增商源的結果我們是用相關的這個履業的過程當中嚴格的管制來達成我們購案能夠執行成功的一個目標部長"},{"start":15801.192,"end":15820.88,"text":"那我想請教一下現在國人到好奇是說過去裝潢 馬桶 茶葉等這相關行業這兩年都可以搖身一變變成增加特定營業項目然後就變成是我們國防部可以履約的一個廠商之一那國人到很好奇是說還有多少廠商還有沒有會不會這兩天又再爆出來"},{"start":15822.139,"end":15842.166,"text":"手搖飲的 檳榔攤的 小吃店的也會搖身一變變成是我們的軍品採購對象我們有沒有去做一個釐清我想跟委員報告我已經一再的說明我們清查過去20年來所有有關火藥原物料的採購的案件我們都是採公開照片我們沒有為誰"},{"start":15845.689,"end":15863.688,"text":"本席站在您的角度我也思考也許國防部部長真的位高權重沒有管到那麼細的採購但是當一件奇怪的案件出來他也許合法但是他不合理"},{"start":15865.855,"end":15890.257,"text":"兩件不合理的採購出來當幾件不合理的採購連翻出來國內想問三個為什麼嘛第一 為什麼這些廠商過去都沒有參與這些營業項目突然間這兩年搖身一變變成這些營業項目那這些廠商之前都沒有投標經驗這兩年突然間只要國防部開標他就來投標 而且就中標以及第三 我們想問為什麼這都集中在台南高雄"},{"start":15891.806,"end":15905.157,"text":"我覺得這才是部長你接到一個 兩個 三個之後你應該要去釐清應該要去請相關的部隊 單位啟動內機內控來瞭解一下整個流程到底有沒有什麼環節是出了問題"},{"start":15906.584,"end":15929.93,"text":"而不是今天我們在做臨時提案之後你才講是說未來會這樣遵守那如果說你覺得這個臨時提案有道理的話我們沒有因為這個臨時提案就要這樣遵守即使沒有這個臨時提案我們也都會有這樣的要求啊因為這本來就是合約裡面部長他要進行的一個完成的事項之一啊本席現在跟你講的是從過去到現在你不用講20年我們就講為什麼這兩年"},{"start":15932.751,"end":15939.302,"text":"因為好多的廠商被踢爆出來就是這兩年他變更了他的營業項目才有辦法取得投標資格而就順利得標嘛"},{"start":15942.056,"end":15947.959,"text":"跟委員報告 我們剛剛也報告了就是過去20年來所有有關得標的廠商也都會有在我們的相關的標案裡面第一次得標也會有資本額也只有一百萬這樣的等等那主要的就是因為取得不易我們要廣增商源那我們重點是在我們用合約來管制因為他如果沒有相當的把握他不會願意來投標的因為他會被列寧"},{"start":15969.572,"end":15983.139,"text":"相關的這些履約上面受到了一個對他不利後果的一個風險難怪大家都一直講是說您就律師個性然後不斷的就重複法條跳針我們現在在講的就是一個不合理的狀況如果說你今天這樣講都可以自圓其說的話部長 請容許本席再提醒你"},{"start":15992.523,"end":16002.761,"text":"如果你這樣講可以自圓其說的話今天媒體的關注以及委員的質詢還有社會大眾的輿論就不會一而再再而三認為說這些狀況都是有問題的"},{"start":16004.633,"end":16030.42,"text":"就不會覺得說一個資本額十萬元的茶行來投標千萬元的國防部的資訊採購然後大家覺得說沒有問題報告委員他沒有投標千萬元他那個投標金額得標的金額只有六十幾萬只有六十幾萬不要誤導啊只有六十幾萬六十幾萬不是錢六十幾萬當然也是錢那就對啦所以我剛剛也講了我們對於他的投標的一個規範不算到採購法"},{"start":16031.44,"end":16043.61,"text":"我們也有相關的人都會在旁邊在他從事回復的時候會注意我們也對他做人員安全查核我們所有應該要做的事情我們都有注意到你的行業相對來講您過去行業比較容易理解的例子"},{"start":16048.334,"end":16073.793,"text":"我想國人大家都很希望釐清國防該支持我們支持我一直過去到現在我在這個委員會都講一樣的話國防該支持我們支持因為我們一起捍衛中華民國的安危但重點在於是說如果說今天預算暴增了三倍然後裡面開始有一些藏污納垢的地方當有人提醒的時候我們希望看到是有內積內控的狀況就講嘛 您過去是律師"},{"start":16074.654,"end":16100.237,"text":"如果說一個大公司突然間兩年內他增加很多的法律委託案件法律顧問案件結果得標的全都是突然間在一兩年以前做馬桶的做茶葉的做裝潢的他去考了律師執照這一兩年取得律師執照沒有任何其他履業的律師資格之後突然間他就可以承攬到大公司的律師委任那你在這個行業三四十年律師你不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":16101.238,"end":16122.339,"text":"你不會覺得說奇怪為什麼這一家大公司過去都是委託有經驗有能力的律師但這一兩年突然間很多都考上律師之後然後馬上就可以委託到這家大公司那如果說這樣的話國人才會覺得懷疑是說為什麼茶葉裝潢的馬桶的都可以在國防部這邊拿到這些標案"},{"start":16124.453,"end":16147.468,"text":"預算暴增是事實2017年就是比2026年成長了三倍之多的預算預算多了除了人事費用多以外更重要很多採購案也多了那採購案也多了就這些採購全都集中在這一些一兩年跳出來的這公司而且過去不是從事這個業務跟項目的這才是國人覺得奇怪的地方啊"},{"start":16151.443,"end":16179.787,"text":"委員是要我回答 無話可說我們都有相關的一些集合制度也會接受審計部的一個會不會再有另外一個我們現在講一講會不會過兩天又跑出另外一個以前不是從事這個行業的然後突然間又拿到千萬億以上的標案你有沒有信心可以掛胸脯拍保證告訴國人說沒了有關這個火藥原物料的這個部分我們已經一再的說明我們所訂的相關資格都是如此沒有說尤其是第一次進口你要他"},{"start":16181.276,"end":16197.689,"text":"怎麼樣 你說實際的證明還是如何我覺得政府其實還要拿到輸出當地政府的輸出許可證明嗎如果說用這種態度的話 國人大家都在看那就讓這把火繼續燒吧看我們還可以燒出多少國防部沒有被燒出來的秘密 謝謝"},{"start":16198.47,"end":16215.637,"text":"我們國防部都盡得起監督好不好 謝謝委員的指教謝謝 接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在請葉元之 葉元之 葉元之委員不在請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請林益君委員上台質詢"},{"start":16228.285,"end":16239.326,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國安局蔡局長請蔡局長謝謝主席 林委員好"},{"start":16240.367,"end":16260.293,"text":"局長好 局長你應該很清楚美國的美中經濟安全委員會每年都會發布報告是作為政府施政和國會的問政所以你應該也知道USCC在上個月11月18號發布了年度報告內容多達733頁其中光是提到台灣的次數"},{"start":16260.973,"end":16268.756,"text":"大約就包含了整個目錄大約有1223次甚至還在報告的第11章中專門寫了一個討論台灣問題的專章根據USCC的年度報告裡面所謂提到跟台灣有關的內容大多是中國的威脅有極大的關聯所以我想局長對這個報告應該是有研究吧其中它上面有具體的建議美國國會應該指示國務院"},{"start":16290.026,"end":16294.992,"text":"啟動一項非武器支援服務的對外軍售的項目用於加強美國在台灣周邊的嚇阻的能力這個部分上次11月24號委員會質詢的時候本席就有請教過你們的副局長當時可能是因為報告才發表"},{"start":16307.746,"end":16316.189,"text":"國安局還沒有充分的掌握整個有給本席也沒有給本席一個充分的答案所以今天我想要請教局長你認為USCC報告裡面所謂的非武器資源的軍售指的是什麼還有對台灣的國家安全又會有什麼樣的幫助"},{"start":16326.172,"end":16352.377,"text":"我想第一個先跟委員說明一下USCC它是美國國會成立的一個專家委員會他們針對各種的情勢有提出一些言析跟建議不過再次強調它只是一個專家委員會有一些委員所提到的這些項目跟內容美國政府並沒有公開的去把它列為目前即將要推動的一個政策所以比較像是的是報告公佈之後它有帶動一個話題"},{"start":16353.897,"end":16367.413,"text":"但不是一個正式的政策議題所以我自己認為我以國安局局長的身份假如說在美國政府都還沒有一些相關政策立場的時候有太多公開評論的話比較不恰當那請委員可以理解"},{"start":16368.223,"end":16390.071,"text":"好那我再請教一下就是說像美國總統任期內都會對外發表了國家安全戰略NSS報告這份的報告可以說是全世界最重要的一份的文件因為對照NSS報告公佈之後觀察美國的實際的戰略的佈局大部分都是會有完全的遵照這樣的執行"},{"start":16391.371,"end":16406.463,"text":"所以川普也在最近12月4號發表他這一次川普2.0版的2025年國家的安全戰略雖然報告從第一任的總共大概68頁大約出現台灣三次但是精簡到現在整個總頁數大約只有33頁但是"},{"start":16409.205,"end":16431.353,"text":"報告的內容提到台灣大約有八次所以對台灣的關心其實是前所未有的所以川普對這一份的報告中雖然他反映了美國對台灣的戰略定位顯示是整個是有一點提升的但是美國過去在這個報告文件中一直都是強調說與同盟國的之間的共同的價值但是現在"},{"start":16432.213,"end":16454.822,"text":"他居然就整個傾向到基於利益還有交易的關係與亞洲盟友的合作而非普世價值例如台灣的價值就只強調了半導體產業的經濟重要性還有軍事戰略的地理的價值所以因此我想請教一下局長就是我們一直在強調與美國的民主共同的價值"},{"start":16455.342,"end":16470.019,"text":"美國在意的卻是我們的經濟和地理戰略的價值那會不會在雙方的對話上有造成了一些分歧你認為美國川普總統的2025年的國安戰略他們是怎麼樣如何重新定位台灣的呢"},{"start":16470.499,"end":16486.944,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問就這次美國的國家安全戰略一般在解讀上認為它是比較所謂務實的現實主義比較重視的是透過實際的力量來維護和平的存在我們把它稱為是務實的現實主義也才會"},{"start":16488.084,"end":16505.124,"text":"稍早有陸續跟幾位委員說明的美國開始跟區域友盟來加強一些防衛上的合作以及透過一些安全協定來推動一些聯演聯訓提升跟國際友盟的那個整合的程度跟聯合運作的能力這大概是第一部分跟委員說明的"},{"start":16505.524,"end":16532.416,"text":"那第二部分是在這個新版的國家安全戰略之下那可能台灣也必須要了解到這個發展的趨勢怎麼樣來提升自我防衛能力也是一個非常重要的一個環節那可能在後續我們在觀察美國的國安戰略的推動我想正如委員所說的因為它國安戰略它有經過跨部會的一個討論所以它會變成是一個比較清楚的一個藍圖"},{"start":16533.496,"end":16557.771,"text":"那我在專報也特別引述了印太司令帕帕羅上將的一個說法那他們在整個後續的執行規劃上三個重點一個當然就是維持區域裡面重要的水域航道的開放性那第二個就是美國會進行必要的前置部署那第三個就是相關國際友門也應該要承受更大的一個承擔更大的一個防衛的責任"},{"start":16558.371,"end":16584.849,"text":"所以我想在這樣的清楚的戰略之下以及他們相關的政策說明之下那台灣可能在第一島鏈也要有自己的清楚定位那提升相關的國防能力能夠跟區域有合作發展的動向大家可以一致性不要變成台灣是一個好像搭便車的一個角色好 那最後一個問題我想請教一下局長就是說那這樣的話依照國安局的判斷2027年中共會不會發動武統呢"},{"start":16588.719,"end":16610.715,"text":"就這個部分之前主要是因為美國的情報機關跟美國的印太司令有去提醒在中共對台的武力整備過程當中2027年是一個重要的時間節點要特別注意那因為美方的說法是習近平要求解放軍在2027年以前要準備好相關的能力"},{"start":16611.155,"end":16635.646,"text":"那至於2027年會不會真正的犯台他可能考慮到的不只是能力的建置還有包括到政治的經濟的社會的跟國際情勢相關的環境所以大概目前在討論這個2027年是否中共會犯台大概是剛剛跟委員簡短報告的這樣的一個角度請委員參考好那謝謝局長那我有請那個顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":16641.182,"end":16641.89,"text":"是 我也用好了"},{"start":16642.864,"end":16648.908,"text":"部長接下來我會有一個比較混亂的有一個問題因為現在發生一個混亂的現象我想請教一下部長就是說官兵授訓的期間戰鬥家級還有主管職的家級到底是需不需要停資這一個問題因為本席這邊了解到各單位的財務室的做法都不太一樣請問部長依照現行的規定官兵授訓的期間各項的家級到底還是不是可以繼續支領呢"},{"start":16673.047,"end":16696.287,"text":"您講的授訓是指短期的還是他到紙餐或者是就短期的是短期的授訓嗎我想這個部分是不是志願室報委員他如果是屬於長期的授訓沒有在那個植物上附帶那個植物加緊是的確是依規定是需要先暫停"},{"start":16697.779,"end":16706.124,"text":"你說長期的你說短期的是需要被暫停的沒有沒有短期不用長期的你的短期和長期的界線在哪裡"},{"start":16706.957,"end":16735.645,"text":"就是說最明顯的例子就是他去紙餐從事這個紙餐或者戰院等等的這些他離開他的這個職務了嘛因為他沒有這個職務就不能夠領取嘛但是他如果是短期的授訓但是他還是在這個職務上那就沒有這個問題因為據我了解是如果授訓超過30天的話就要將停之嘛所以這樣的話是30天如果超過30天就停止支點是嗎"},{"start":16738.693,"end":16766.014,"text":"是的這樣的話我覺得這樣也很奇怪因為如果國軍官兵受限於這個的話結果反而會造成他們繼續想要知領戰鬥加級或者是地獄加級的話竟然會想說國軍可能就是不想要去受訓了其實去受訓是很好的他可以加強他們的技能嘛所以如果是說他們這樣的話不能領的話這樣不是就是變成說他們根本就是都不願意積極去受訓嗎"},{"start":16768.716,"end":16783.741,"text":"應該說關鍵的判斷點是他有沒有在這個職務這個職務上假設他還是有這個職務他當然就可以領取就像我們現在第一家級也是如此他就一定要實際在那個地方服役那如果說他沒有在外里島服役那他這個"},{"start":16784.981,"end":16802.157,"text":"現在就會被停止支領這個地域家計所以他這個授訓應該問題是問說他會不會因為他的授訓而離開那個植物如果他沒有因為授訓而離開那個植物他應該就可以領但是如果他離開那個植物的話"},{"start":16803.078,"end":16826.664,"text":"调理那个职务他就不能够允许所以这有一定的规范吗因为我看各单位的财务社好像做法都不太一样而且很多官兵去授训其实连慰劳假都是要被扣的嘛对不对所以像有时候授训太长的期间的时候大部分都没有办法慰劳假讲的就是在纸那种要到纸餐啊这个深造那个他长期的去到学校那个"},{"start":16829.184,"end":16854.059,"text":"又是不一樣的他就是他等於是去了從事一個紙餐跟站院這些等等的到那邊去做一個長期的一個訓練那就這個部分那沒關係那可以給我一份報告嗎就是針對他的加擠方面還有他受訓多少時間的時候他就是沒有支付加擠就相關的規定我們再跟委員做個報告OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":16865.244,"end":16886.959,"text":"好 謝謝我們今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場以外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃人委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆"},{"start":16887.719,"end":16898.427,"text":"委員如果有指定期限者從期鎖定另外今天也特別請軍備局跟中科院提供軍備局之前有自己做過RDX的這個成本報價然後還有中科院HMX的你們做的一些成本報價相關的規格提供給本席辦公室好不好因為你們都有做過嘛你現在又有招標那希望你們提供確切的"},{"start":16917.475,"end":16928.314,"text":"資料還有他的那個金額因為那個你們自己就是在我們未來可能可以做一個對比那今天的會議到此結束 散會謝謝"},{"start":16950.304,"end":16974.098,"text":"因為你有使用的那個方向"},{"start":16977.27,"end":16980.862,"text":"長得不一樣的話就是有不同的"}]}},{"id":"17126","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17126","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc6753254e18e0cc64196d7931713ed315d5e67b2ed5162375a5119cf6582f17ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「健全中央及地方民意代表聘用助理制度」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-17T08:34:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-17T12:13:00+08:00","duration":13114,"影片長度":"03:38:34","委員發言時間":"08:34:26 - 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那麼補充介紹剛剛才抵達的顏榮副教授台北大學法律系顏榮副教授 謝謝好 那麼現在我們就先請議事人員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱"},{"start":1903.973,"end":1925.281,"text":"公聽會討論提供助理系協助民意代表行使職權之重要幕僚其聘用制度涉及助理權益保障且攸關民意代表實際行使職權之有效運作為我國事務上疊生爭議且各國情形仍有不同原就助理制度相關爭議議題召開公聽會與與凝聚共事"},{"start":1926.041,"end":1949.581,"text":"提供立法政策之檢視與省思1 民意代表聘用公費助理之法律定位 括弧法律關係2 政府機關編列預算之及助理費用及其他相關費用之性質3 外國國會助理制度與我國現行規定之利弊分析及執行狀況4 未來改革方向或修法建議 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1952.759,"end":1975.323,"text":"好謝謝那麼在邀請各位發言之前我先就公聽會程序進行說明首先會先請專家學者先發言那麼發言的順序呢就我們依照簽到的先後順序來進行那本院委員會按照登記先後順序發言如果陸續到場的話那本席會穿插安排請委員發言原則上就是在兩位學者"},{"start":1975.843,"end":1995.806,"text":"专家发言之后就会穿插一位委员发言但是如果登记发言的委员人数比较多的时候我们会在10点30分以后登记的委员再安排在所有的学者专家都发言完毕之后再按照登记顺序发言那么如果需要协调的话如果需要协调提前发言的话那再请"},{"start":1997.187,"end":2023.682,"text":"來前面告訴主席我們再次狀況進行調整好的 那麼最後我們會再請機關代表發言針對專家學者以及委員的意見加以回應與會者就先請到發言台發言在主席的右手邊為學者專家列席機關代表的發言左手邊則是由委員的發言台由於公聽會主要是在爭取在聽取學者專家的各界意見"},{"start":2024.602,"end":2042.301,"text":"各界的意見所以每位專家學者發言時間為10分鐘那本院委員發言時間為5分鐘好的那麼我們現在就按照順序邀請專家學者來發言首先第一位我們先請林志傑教授來發言謝謝"},{"start":2056.488,"end":2072.474,"text":"召委主席還有各位先進還有今天與會的幕僚同仁各位媒體朋友大家早安 大家好那麼很感謝今天立法院召開這個公聽會來討論一個重要的議題也就是中央與地方民意代表聘用治理制度健全化的問題"},{"start":2073.374,"end":2098.778,"text":"那么我的发言将就下列几个部分来进行讨论首先第一个是到底中央与地方的民意代表他的助理费他的性质定性是什么当然我们可以看到目前的几个提案那么陈玉珍委员提案是认为助理费它是属于民意代表薪资的一部分那么所引的大概是1980年当时的某一个修法的理由见解"},{"start":2099.438,"end":2126.681,"text":"那麼首先我要講我個人是不同意這樣子的一個觀點因為助理費並不是民意代表的薪資的部分他可以說是國家補助給民意代表去做研究跟服務進行他的事務能夠讓事務更順暢的一種補助但這個補助並不是你的薪資我們可以相對照的比如說我們的國科會科技部的計劃我們所有的老師都可以去申請科技部國科會的研究經費"},{"start":2127.702,"end":2152.268,"text":"那麼這個研究經費當然是對我個人研究的一種補助跟支持那麼讓我們可以完成這個研究但是這樣子的研究計畫中的助理一定是助理個人的薪資而不會變成我實質薪資的一部分所以絕對不可能說因為國家希望你完成一定的特定任務給了你助理費的薪資補助因此就讓你變成薪資的提高"},{"start":2152.748,"end":2163.783,"text":"所以在定性上首先我個人認為助理費基本上它的定性就是公費助理的薪水而不可能是中央或地方民意代表的薪水"},{"start":2164.795,"end":2186.415,"text":"第二个我们看到草案里面提到的如果你认为他是薪水的一部分那么这样子的立法也是可以理解因为他认为所有的请领可以不必检据核销那这个是很自然的如果今天是你个人的薪水你去请领你个人的薪水怎么可能会需要检据单据呢但反过来说如果今天他是一个公款"},{"start":2187.336,"end":2208.545,"text":"你認為今天公款它的這個實用的部分是在公費推動公務的行使那公款一定會是公用那麼這樣子的想法多年來也受到實務見解的肯定我們可以看到如果說實務見解有什麼問題我想除了昨天比較特殊的這個實務見解我們新竹市長高鴻安他的"},{"start":2208.965,"end":2235.854,"text":"助理費用了一個跟過往實務完全不一樣的見解我們可以看過去實務的見解包括110年度大法庭台上字第5217號裁定都肯認助理的費用其實是公務人員或者是民意代表在實質上有能力運用其職務或身份得到的某些利益所以過去也有多個民意代表或者是中央的立法委員"},{"start":2236.974,"end":2263.58,"text":"因為這個低薪高報助理費或者是有這個詐領財務不實的這個登載的狀況被判以貪污治罪條例的刑度所以其實我們從過往的司法實務見解跟目前的立法上都看不出來這個公款可以私用或者是公款在請領的時候可以不用檢據單據所以就陳玉珍委員的提案個人就這兩點上面是持反對的意見"},{"start":2264.758,"end":2282.239,"text":"但是回來說持反對的意見是不是就代表我不贊同去健全助理費的修法恰恰相反我認為其實在這個時候去用一個比較明確的法制去規範助理的權利義務其實是對助理的某種程度保障也是畫出一個不得於越的紅線"},{"start":2283.24,"end":2309.174,"text":"那怎麼說呢比如說我們可以看到許智傑委員跟郭國文委員的提案那我個人就表示贊同因為它裡面不只對於助理的身份保障薪資的核發同時呢它也說明了比如說雇主跟雇傭契約制定的時候一些必要的注意事項還有就是助理應該要恪守的義務我們可以參考外國的立法例不管是立法委員或者是地方民意代表"},{"start":2309.554,"end":2326.627,"text":"他的助理最重要的工作是協助民意代表去問政精進問政跟監督行政的品質那甚至我們在中央還有草擬法案的需求所以助理的資格是非常非常重要的所以如果我們在未來能夠在這個助理"},{"start":2327.848,"end":2348.458,"text":"相關規範上面除了就他的權利有所規範以外義務上能夠也有一定的劃定紅線那麼要求助理必須遵守保密的義務或者是某一些比如說避免滲透或者是說對於當事人的隱私要刻尊注意或者是"},{"start":2349.438,"end":2370.579,"text":"助理之間像我們現在也有公益接避者保護法他如果發現有什麼弊案要接避的時候他所要因行進行的程序我覺得這個也是對助理一個相對很好的保障這是第二部分再來第三部分也許有民意代表不管是中央或者這地方提出現行的立法院組織法制度可能比較僵化"},{"start":2370.959,"end":2389.426,"text":"那麼這一點我個人的觀察確實也有可能比如說我們可以看到前一陣子修的地方民意制度地方民意代表的助理聘用的規則我們就可以看到其實法規上給了地方的民意代表相對多的彈性比如什麼呢比如他可以有日之制的助理"},{"start":2390.226,"end":2411.276,"text":"比如說我今天其實是一個公讀金的概念那我可不可以不要用一次聘任比如說一年或者是半年而是用每一天甚至是小時的方式來計算這個公讀金的方式我覺得是一個非常好的制度但是可能目前組織法並沒有這樣的規範而必須用私人來聘任如果未來可以制度化立法我覺得是一個非常好的事"},{"start":2411.836,"end":2440.26,"text":"那麼第二個我覺得要區隔的是不分區的委員跟區域的立法委員也許他在助理費的聘任上功能性質跟彈性也必須要有所調整那為什麼這麼說呢比如說不分區的立委他很主要的可能是就中央法案或各種制度的延期那要對政策來提出一個說明可是地方的區域委員他有區域選區的選民服務需要所以他的駐地的助理他可能需要的彈性會更大"},{"start":2440.88,"end":2456.056,"text":"所以簡單來講如果今天我們提出來是認為目前立法院的立法委員相關的助理費彈性不足那我個人也非常支持從彈性上面去予以著調舉例來講比如過去的國科會科技部"},{"start":2456.997,"end":2482.913,"text":"大家如果還有印象我想昭偉跟我都是在大學教書我們應該有印象在十多年前曾經發生過國科會的暴漲案當時有非常多的教授因為暴漲的問題經費當時制度不夠彈性而遭到起訴當時也很多的討論後來我們解決的方式是什麼呢我們解決的方式是去修改整個國科會的暴漲方法比如說你出國"},{"start":2483.873,"end":2500.166,"text":"當時我們所有的出國都必須要依照你申請時的出國地點跟研討會結果後來發現這個研討會根本就沒有再舉辦了或者是改變了它舉行的地點那你要怎麼辦呢以前國客會這樣的彈性是完全沒有的其次就是流用"},{"start":2501.087,"end":2521.016,"text":"比如說我們如果今年的這個項目還有一些餘額那我明年的事項是一個接續的計畫我可不可以把今年的某些設備材料留用到明年以前這樣的彈性也是沒有的那後來因為十多年前曾經發生過這樣的狀況所以我們在彈性上給予老師們因為研究它是一個proposal"},{"start":2521.724,"end":2542.27,"text":"研究它是一個接續的過程研究具有流動性它不是立刻我今天申請的狀況到兩年以後就會完全的實現我有可能有各種的變化所以給予經費運用者比較多的彈性但是公款公用而且簡據核銷這是兩個非常重要的基本原則所以回來講"},{"start":2543.53,"end":2557.923,"text":"今天這個關於立法院還有我們地方民代聘用助理的法制化我個人認為好的制度應該是要給予主事者更多的彈性但是這個彈性絕對不是把助理的費用變成自己的薪資"},{"start":2559.284,"end":2577.238,"text":"更加不是讓在請款的時候可以不必檢據核銷我覺得最好的參考應該就是國立大學或私立大學目前我們在國科會當時的研究助理我覺得這個研究助理的制度值得參考是因為他給予老師在過去相較更多的彈性"},{"start":2578.499,"end":2598.165,"text":"此外我也贊同不太適合再把公費助理放在立法院組織法裡面因為我覺得他是值得例外拉出來用一個專法或者是我們用一個辦法來規定而不是夾在這個組織法裡頭然後細部的規則不清楚這也很容易讓不清楚的立委或者是不清楚的這個助理去踩到紅線"},{"start":2599.605,"end":2627.4,"text":"最后要讲的就是两点一定要坚守助理费的定性是国家给予公费助理的薪资绝对不是国家给予民意代表的薪水第二个所有公费它的情理一定要检据核销绝对不可能变成立法委员或地方民意代表因为自己钱不够来留用把这个薪水动到助理费的头上无需检据核销中保私囊"},{"start":2628.274,"end":2657.757,"text":"那麼這樣子的做法非但不合於法律同時也是不合於現在法律司法實務規範的以上幾點建議進攻著參謝謝好 謝謝林教授的寶貴的意見那確實我們在大學的話過去十幾年前曾經有發生過有關於助理經費福報的一些問題後來也是透過制度上面去改革所以剛剛也很贊同林教授的一些意見"},{"start":2658.709,"end":2660.338,"text":"接下來我們請蘇子喬教授發言 謝謝"},{"start":2678.565,"end":2706.136,"text":"主席 各位委員還有各位機關長官還有在座先進 大家好我是舒子喬今天非常榮幸受邀能夠參加這個公聽會能夠就中央跟地方民意代表的聘用助理的制度重要的議題提供我一些個人的潛見我想我會把這個焦點放在中央的部分也就是國會助理的"},{"start":2707.426,"end":2729.235,"text":"這個制度的部分因為我個人作為一個長期觀察國會運作的一個研究者事實上我可能會能夠體會或了解說立法委員在問政還有選區服務之間的這樣的一個工作的辛勞還有立法委員助理的工作的辛苦"},{"start":2730.035,"end":2752.872,"text":"特別是這幾年我們說關於助理費核銷的司法的爭議頻傳我相信這個會造成很多立委跟助理的困擾甚至會產生一種不安全感我看到今天這個公聽會所提的討論提綱也看到了陳玉珍委員還有其他委員的不同修法的版本我想這個"},{"start":2754.693,"end":2770.782,"text":"大家不同委員的初衷其實都是一樣的雖然目前的討論其實引發了一些社會上的爭議不過我想大家的初衷都是希望說能夠建立一套明確好用而且能夠讓大家安心而且不會容易入人於罪的制度"},{"start":2772.722,"end":2795.909,"text":"所以我今天的發言主要會從一個如何讓國會助理的制度成為立法委員行使職權的堅持後盾這樣的一個角度提供以下的一些修法的參考一些建議第一個是關於討論提綱當中提到國會助理費用的性質跟法律定位這樣的問題"},{"start":2797.591,"end":2799.976,"text":"我注意到陳玉珍委員的提案版本關於這個問題他是建議說"},{"start":2804.031,"end":2828.931,"text":"修改立法院組織法傾向把助理的助理費定義是委員的實質薪資跟補助賦予委員統籌運用的權利我能夠理解這樣的提案背後的用意是希望說讓立委有比較大的用人的彈性不過站在法治研究的角度我還是要提醒其實這樣的設計雖然"},{"start":2830.993,"end":2841.083,"text":"能夠解決眼前的一些核銷的手續或是促成人家擴大彈性不過也很可能在未來會讓這個委員讓立法委員在這個帶來一些想不到的一些風險第一個風險是在於說是稅務認定的風險因為如果我們在這個法律上將這些經費"},{"start":2851.794,"end":2871.658,"text":"定位成是委員的實質的薪資或是個人補助的話根據稅法的原理其實這筆錢極可能會被視為是委員個人的綜合所得這樣一來我們說委員不僅可能會面臨稅負暴增的問題未來在支付助理薪水的時候也可能會研發關於贈與稅或是比較複雜的扣繳的責任第二個風險是在於說事實上"},{"start":2880.313,"end":2904.954,"text":"委員個人將來如果是採取剛剛前面這樣的修法方向的話他必須要概括承受所有的僱主的責任因為目前公費助理的僱主的定義事實上在法律上確實還是有點模糊的如果我們修法將經費完全交由立委來統籌運用的話這個在法律上等同是宣告說委員就是唯一的僱主"},{"start":2906.095,"end":2911.417,"text":"未來如果說發生勞資糾紛 職災補償這樣的一些爭議的話立法院作為機關的角色將會幾乎就完全退場所有的法律的責任跟賠償的壓力都會是由委員個人來獨自承擔這是第二個風險因此我個人會認為 淺見會認為維持助理費是一個公款的性質由立法院來編列預算的資應"},{"start":2934.686,"end":2943.874,"text":"透過制度化來解決核銷的繁瑣的程序或許是一個比較穩健而且相對來講也可以比較保護委員的一個做法"},{"start":2945.496,"end":2970.069,"text":"第二個我想要談的是關於本次修法的另外一個核心也是我個人特別關注的一個部分是關於國會助理的勞動權益保障的這一個部分國會助理是協助委員行使職權的重要的幕僚但是長期以來我們可以看到就是說其實國會助理的法律地位並不是非常明確雖然立法院組織法是有規定"},{"start":2972.09,"end":2991.527,"text":"所以國會助理常常會被視為是委員個人的隨從而不完全是國會制度的一環如果我們採取把助理費視為是立委實質薪資由委員來統籌運用這樣的修法方向的話助理的薪資結構將會完全取決於"},{"start":2993.148,"end":3013.658,"text":"個別委員本身的財務調度這對國會助理明確的法律保障底線其實是不夠的我覺得這對於國會助理人才的久任其實是不利的相對的如果我們朝向一個制定專法這樣的方向去努力的話我覺得"},{"start":3015.038,"end":3038.189,"text":"還是一個比較可以去更進一步去思考的一個方向因為我們能夠如果用通過專法來保障來規範的話我們比較可以在可以比較完整的在法律當中明確去寫規定或是寫入這個關於助理的實質保障例如我們說在目前看到的這個草案的資料當中看到有一些其實蠻值得參考的一些制度設計的方向的"},{"start":3038.729,"end":3058.368,"text":"第一個是我看到草案當中有提到就是說關於助理的職業安全以及健康保險的這樣的一些規定另外還有關於這些明確的離職的權益另外還有一個我覺得我也特別關注到就是有規定到說建立資深的專業家級的制度這邊我想特別提"},{"start":3060.57,"end":3079.063,"text":"強調就是說這樣的規定確實是我覺得是蠻值得參考的因為我們都希望國會有專業的幕僚那如果說有法院的依據能夠允許這個立法院在編列預算的時候給予資深助理比較有額外的專業佳績而這筆錢不會不記錄原本的薪資的總額上限的話那這能夠極大的去這個"},{"start":3082.175,"end":3096.569,"text":"幫助委員能夠留住好的人才一方面也可以讓國會助理這份工作成為年輕朋友或是有志於從政的人甚至是一輩子的志業而不是過渡性的工作這個是我想強調的第二點"},{"start":3103.258,"end":3121.654,"text":"也就是說我認為這個資深制不僅是我們國會議員的這樣的一個期待其實對助理我們也是有這樣的一個期待的那第三點是我要進一步去想要提醒就是說其實我們都知道說台灣的這個選舉文化跟國外不一樣其實國會助理"},{"start":3122.615,"end":3140.448,"text":"協助立委去跑 尤其是區域立委的部分去跑這個立委的行程 協助立委跑行程處理地方事務是很常態而且是必要的那過去爭議往往會是在於說我們的會用很嚴格的公務公務是兩制的定義去檢視很在地化的選民這個立委的選區的服務的行為"},{"start":3142.889,"end":3155.418,"text":"那我會認為就是說其實在解決這個問題的方法上不應該是把這個錢當成是私房錢讓大家來就讓立委來就讓大家來使用啦而是應該誠實的面對就是國會助理的工作的真實的一些真實的型態"},{"start":3158.83,"end":3173.894,"text":"我的想法是認為說或許我們在未來的法治化的過程中能夠更寬廣的定義助理的職務的範圍肯定或說肯認選民服務跟地方連結也是協助立法委員行使職權的一環"},{"start":3176.095,"end":3202.814,"text":"同時關於針對純粹屬於行政事務的開銷我們應該可以檢討就是說在現行的立委的辦公事務費這部分的額度是否足夠如果經費不足的話應該直接調整預算的項目也就是確立人事費跟業務費這兩部分是明確分流的原則以避免助理費會被迫流於行政支出"},{"start":3203.454,"end":3225.982,"text":"這部分雖然是比較輸入性的一個討論不過我覺得這個是很多目前在實務上運作上的一些灰色地帶跟困擾最後這一點時間我要提的就是說其實面對不同的這樣的修法的方向跟途徑其實每個方案的背後其實都代表著不同的價值的取捨我們可以選擇一個比較看似比較簡單比較方便的路"},{"start":3229.383,"end":3257.316,"text":"可是可能要承擔就是稅務還有法律責任不輕的這樣風險我們也可以選擇一個相對規則比較明確可以比較保障助理勞動權益的這樣的一個修法方向這樣修法方向雖然初期的適應會相對比較辛苦但是長遠來看其實這個透過一套比較清楚的遊戲規則反而可以讓各位委員在行使職權的時候能夠更有一個安全感然後有更堅實的後盾"},{"start":3258.777,"end":3284.306,"text":"所以我覺得就是說這次的這個目前這個國會助理這樣的一個爭議事實上可以讓我們有一個剛好藉由這樣一個時機去把這個國會助理制度進一步完善化我覺得是一個不錯是一個很好的機會啦所以總結而言我會認為說這個改善當前目前的制度困境然後呢確保這個權責相符跟制度透明是重要的那以上潛見希望提供各位參考謝謝大家"},{"start":3286.408,"end":3314.85,"text":"好 謝謝蘇老師我們現在補充介紹到場的委員還有陳佩瑜委員然後剛剛那個中嘉賓委員她也有到我只是一時還沒有來得及介紹相信她待會還會回來好 那接下來我們就還有再補充介紹剛剛到場的專家學者李瑞典國防大學李瑞典老師好那接下來我們再邀請下一位蔣桂美教授請發對不起 抱歉抱歉"},{"start":3316.758,"end":3318.707,"text":"接下來我們邀請林月琴委員發言 謝謝"},{"start":3329.907,"end":3345.756,"text":"主席 各位在座的專家學者跟委員 大家早安今天我除了以一個立法委員的角色來參與今天的公聽會發言以外也要為這些辛苦在立院工作的助理們來帶他們發聲因為我必須站出來捍衛他們的權利"},{"start":3356.061,"end":3383.062,"text":"首先我必須要嚴正的聲明跟抗議公款專用是助理費制度不能退縮的底線如果我們把助理費縮成是立委薪資的一部分那公款私用當然就被合理化甚至被洗白只要一句問政補助界線就不見了昨天的高鴻安甚至是之前所有無罪判決的案件"},{"start":3383.682,"end":3411.624,"text":"都是因為這個原因把助理費的薪資定位為立委的一個問政補助等於是告訴社會助理不是人是工具助理費不是公費是零用錢我要嚴正的提醒這不是在幫任何人解套而是在幫國會推向制度的崩壞當公費跟私用的界限一旦退縮受傷的不只是一個案子而是整個民主制度的信任"},{"start":3412.985,"end":3425.845,"text":"所以我必須要站出來來捍衛我們的助理辛苦的助理們因為為了避免這樣的狀況發生所以我今天要討論的是對於助理勞權的一個保障"},{"start":3428.969,"end":3443.226,"text":"身為助理 他們要寫法案要寫預算 要研究議題甚至還要研究如何當小編有時候可能會每天都全天候 encode甚至可能會是說立法院通過的各項重大法案"},{"start":3443.786,"end":3468.265,"text":"甚至民生國防任何法案都一定會經過助理之手由他們按照立委的一個想法一個字一個字的寫出來由此可見助理是一個高度專業化的一個職業既然是高度化的專業職業那理應就要有相對應的聘用考核制度福利薪資待遇還有我們應該用制度來穩固這樣的一個專業性但"},{"start":3472.833,"end":3488.705,"text":"用待遇來吸引人才就像大法官助理跟檢察官助理都有相對應的組織法授權依據跟聘用辦法那我們來看看國會助理到底有什麼樣的明文保障首先是立法院組織法的第32條33條當然也是用勞基法"},{"start":3491.807,"end":3510.207,"text":"然後就沒有然後了因為第32條裡面只講說每位委員可以聘用8到14人為公費助理如果我們以最低的8人來計算的話全院113位的委員都聘的話那就有900位助理是立法院人數最多的員工"},{"start":3511.516,"end":3526.323,"text":"但是看到了嗎身為一個最高立法機關我們卻對國會助理沒有任何的聘用制度升遷考核跟福利待遇的一個保障依照目前的聘用制度待遇都由立法院"},{"start":3527.284,"end":3546.526,"text":"個人立法委員個人判斷助理相當於是在一個被動弱勢也沒有完整的監督機制要求立法委員所以我們應該要先討論的是如何讓國會的公費助理法制化建立待遇考核制度而非擴大立法委員的決定權卻沒有任何約束立法委員的辦法這會讓"},{"start":3547.967,"end":3575.176,"text":"多年來辛苦打造受國僅存的法制化基礎統統不見因為依照現行的規定至少錢是從立法院直接匯入助理的帳戶如果變成是立法委員統籌運用的話誰來保障助理的薪水會全額給付那難道這些為國家奉獻時間奉獻心血的一個助理連最基本保障都不應該有嗎所以我們的助理就在問我"},{"start":3576.196,"end":3598.804,"text":"為什麼同在一個屋簷底下工作的也就是立法院因為除了助理還有其他的同仁他們有子女教育女的補助結婚補助 商帳補助 生育補助甚至還有會期津貼連司機都有這個會期津貼那明明都是在同一個屋簷下為什麼國會助理什麼福利都沒有呢所以我們當然就期待"},{"start":3602.205,"end":3631.393,"text":"要留住人才真的要解決這個三個沒有的窘境來留住人才所以我將會提案提升國會助理的相關待遇跟福利明文寫在我們的立法院組織法裡面第二個我們也看到其他國家助理費的制度像日本他有審查認定委員會的模式很值得借鏡先建立一些資格審定然後依照能力給予相同待遇的薪資這樣子才有辦法留住人才所以我們"},{"start":3632.404,"end":3645.575,"text":"認為在沒有一個監督沒有制度沒有保障尚未沒有解決的時候都不宜擴大立法委員的統籌權將使助理的保障受到破壞謝謝我的每一位助理這次換我為你們發聲 謝謝好 謝謝林委員那接下來我們再邀請蔣慧美教授發言"},{"start":3660.875,"end":3688.704,"text":"主席各位在場的公務人員跟好朋友大家好因為時間非常有限所以我很快切入重點我覺得這個問題大家爭議到各說各話是沒有意思的為什麼呢因為它不是一個非常複雜的問題譬如說我請問在座公務員的行政中立法助理適不適用回到中立法第17條"},{"start":3690.445,"end":3710.595,"text":"准用的部分它准不准用大家就要開始思考助理是隨委員同進退在組織法裡面它是明定的隨委員同進退如果你要遵守行政中立法拜託 那你就留著問題是你的身分呢所以我們這個問題要從源頭開始談"},{"start":3715.257,"end":3721.329,"text":"立法委員他不是所謂的我們一般公務員服務法裡面的這個對象"},{"start":3723.362,"end":3746.592,"text":"我們監察院彈劾文武百官但是不包含立委過去我在監察院服務這個是非常清楚的為什麼不包含立委因為他是為民喉舌他不是官員這是非常清楚的一個定位所以他的助理我相信每一個委員為了跟助理建立友善關係你都可以跟助理說大家非常專業"},{"start":3747.873,"end":3773.833,"text":"那請問誰來定位什麼叫專業立委裡面有的是服務選區我覺得服務選區不見得要博士吧有的是法案助理有的是監督政府的政策寫質詢稿它分了非常多的功能但是我們把它一以貫之最近某一個黨提了一個草案叫做"},{"start":3775.154,"end":3803.593,"text":"立法院公費助理任用法草案我看了快昏倒任用這兩個字是不能亂用的因為我們有公務人員任用法任用法裡面必須是有職稱職等有考試資格的一個中華民國的法律裡面出現了同樣的字但是完全不同的定義請問誰分得清楚你到法院連法官都分不清楚"},{"start":3805.043,"end":3825.766,"text":"所以身份要系屬於機關而機關立法院是全國最高的立法機關他的立委不是官員所以他的助理的角色就隨著國會的民意代表同進退這是一個國會自律的精神"},{"start":3826.807,"end":3847.054,"text":"在組織法裡面定得非常清楚它叫國會自律我們去看別的國家也幾乎都是跟他的民意代表同進退否則你沒有辦法解決他身份上的問題他怎麼去適用公務員相關法令公務員服務法是不能用的這個是一清二楚的"},{"start":3848.14,"end":3875.259,"text":"公務員服務法不能用所以呢 你說它適用勞基法嗎請大家去看我們今天不曉得有沒有考試院代表考試院我也服務了很久考試院在112年兩年前的12月14號有一個院會紀錄請大家參看不過我剛看全序部的書面跟那個院會紀錄顯然是不大一樣的哪裡不一樣呢"},{"start":3876.701,"end":3889.04,"text":"考試院在112年的院會12月14號這個院會它裡面最主要談的是什麼考試院一直要訂一個契約人員的人事條例"},{"start":3890.792,"end":3918.168,"text":"從我在考試院二三十年前到現在訂不出來他訂一個什麼 契約人員人事條例草案這個契約人力裡面就包含了什麼呢包含了聘用的 僱用的 聘用的大家都知道這是考試院的月管 月管僱用的是誰的月管 是行政院人事總處的月管僱用適用的對象是什麼人是行政院及其所屬中央地方行政機關"},{"start":3920.905,"end":3924.681,"text":"這兩個台灣出來的人他的權益是完全不一樣的"},{"start":3926.075,"end":3950.211,"text":"對不對 聘用條裡面非常清楚嘛你有禁用的比例啊你不是可以隨便用的那僱用的條文裡面也非常清楚啊僱用的權益跟聘用不一樣啊那所以當我們每一個組織都在拼命談自己權益的時候我們為什麼不回到法的源頭去釐清這些問題這才是一個民主國家知識分子該做的事"},{"start":3951.4,"end":3962.886,"text":"那所以呢其他我有很多東西在書面裡面去處理了第二個問題請問大家從剛才到現在談的都是助理費沒有人用薪資這個名詞"},{"start":3968.635,"end":3981.479,"text":"到底是一個費用還是薪資我偏查了所有的條件中華民國的法不是只有一個法條之間會有漢格會有禁核這個當立委是非常辛苦的這些東西勢必要把它Clear掉它是一個費但是考試院在院會裡面也一直在討論"},{"start":3991.829,"end":4010.975,"text":"既然是個費所以你納入勞保 納入保險你是跟著什麼走那大家去看保險法今天勞動部好像有人來你是跟著什麼走如果你單獨的機關認為說它是薪資我掛著薪資去保險可是它的科目裡面它是費用吧它不是薪資"},{"start":4018.553,"end":4033.929,"text":"所以機關跟機關之間整合顯然出了問題啊那你既然隨著立委同進退所以呢你自己現在還要再弄一個專法專法我覺得完全沒有必要因為中華民國什麼都不多就法律太多了"},{"start":4035.273,"end":4064.673,"text":"法律还可以不公布法律这么多你再搞一个专法专法里面再用任用那请问他是公务人员吗他连公务员服务法的公务员都不是为什么是公务人员然后在这些基础之下再来谈权益我觉得会谈得比较清楚那所以呢我在这个paper里面有提到包含了他的工作性质我说现在是一个AI的时代"},{"start":4066.174,"end":4086.85,"text":"法院也要跟著彈性了啦我說的彈性並不是審判彈性喔而是觀念要彈性調整現在很多工作你不見得要八點塞成那樣到辦公室打個個卡然後五點前再趕回辦公室再打個卡這什麼時代了太多的東西網路都可以解決了所以你的工作時數請問你怎麼定"},{"start":4089.09,"end":4111.735,"text":"那我看了一下今年的是什麼預算嗎這個加班費大概9萬左右然後這個助理的部分 工會助理的部分我當然會比較驚訝的就是說我們在座有很多政府官員政府官員當主管的領不領加班費大家不用回答我自己摸著兩星問"},{"start":4113.991,"end":4135.881,"text":"我在公家機關十多年 我從來沒有領過加班費從來沒有 你政務官 你領加班費請問你有打卡紀錄嗎 沒有耶做那些假帳有什麼意思呢那一個證明說 你有來加班我覺得沒有意思 法律完成這樣就太沒有意思了"},{"start":4136.909,"end":4162.446,"text":"那所以遠距辦公算不算呢 對不對那遠距辦公難道你不承認他有辦公的事實嗎他已經走向績效制了然後你偏偏要用過去的思維大家談了過去很多的標準我們一直用過去的思維來看今天發生的事那我們在學校也要硬硬拿學生教的報告裡面全部是AI生成的你老師要有功力看得出來呀"},{"start":4165.616,"end":4178.125,"text":"大家都可以抓那為什麼還要所謂的加班有沒有超時然後超時要給多少然後人不在辦公室然後你有沒有圖利某某人我覺得這個源頭一定要釐清它不是只有司法的問題它包含了人事的專業"},{"start":4186.624,"end":4197.716,"text":"所以沒有一個機關可以認為自己的觀點是金科玉律但是原理我相信只有一個邏輯一定要釐清那另外一個問題"},{"start":4199.716,"end":4227.374,"text":"在我們現行法裡面因為人員的種類實在太多了尤其是契約人力所以哪些什麼包含了我們所謂非典人力非典人力我覺得這個根本就應該納入所謂的助理範圍它不見得一定要8小時它有很多功能有的人功能他2小時可以做6小時的事你偏要讓他做8小時然後超時10小時他也做不出來還要領加班費"},{"start":4229.691,"end":4251.911,"text":"這叫非典人力為什麼不可以納進來最後一個核心的觀念我覺得國會自律我在書面寫得非常清楚包含德國的制度全部隨委員同進退他在聯邦的議會議員法律關係法裡面訂得非常清楚由委員決定包含立法院97年的那個函"},{"start":4254.403,"end":4270.772,"text":"一樣所以我覺得要尊重委員專業自律最後一個問題公費的部分我覺得可以參考當年的國務紀要費一旦入帳後來有問題我們不希望它變歷史共業 謝謝好 謝謝張老師接下來我們請吳嘉玲律師發言"},{"start":4288.108,"end":4310.138,"text":"主席各位在場的先生大家好我是吳嘉玲吳律師其實我先前有在司法實務工作了一段時間其實我覺得這個議題很特別因為也蠻有趣的就是昨天竟然有了另外一個法院的見解而且從不同的角度來看助理費的問題"},{"start":4311.539,"end":4318.634,"text":"那其實我剛才我覺得剛才前面的先進其實點到了一個很重要的問題就是我們很容易以詞害意"},{"start":4319.653,"end":4345.838,"text":"就譬如說剛才提到費用的時候大家就會覺得說這個費用那不是就不是薪資嗎那如果再以這個前提來看的話如果是以費用的前提來看那這個問題就會變得很複雜因為如果我先直接進入議題好了就如果是看那個立法院組織法第32條第一項其實我個人覺得是蠻明確的就是說他就那個立法院公費助理他採用的是聘用制"},{"start":4346.878,"end":4354.708,"text":"所以雇主應該是委員本身然後這個其實是享受勞動基準法的保障"},{"start":4355.663,"end":4385.083,"text":"那在我當律師又當了一陣子之後我突然發現因為我服務很多國外的公司在國外公司在諮詢台灣的勞動法制的時候讓我蠻驚訝的其實是台灣的勞動基準法如果我們大家都不講那個實務運作的常態全部都用自願或用什麼方式其實勞動基準法本身的保障台灣相對於其他的國家是非常的好的如果是嚴格執行的話"},{"start":4386.224,"end":4403.839,"text":"所以其實我老實講如果按照現行立法院組織法如果大家嚴格的落實說這個助理就是勞工雇主就是委員的話那每一個委員都嚴格的依照勞動基準法來履行的時候"},{"start":4404.92,"end":4420.755,"text":"這個時候其實這個助理其實是受到非常完整的保障了本身了所以就如剛剛仙境所講到底有沒有需要再去另外另外一個法來保障助理的所謂的法律的保障我覺得這是可以打一個大大的問號的"},{"start":4421.877,"end":4440.049,"text":"那當然因為剛剛有大家有提到其實就是說因為委員的職務其實是很複雜的他需要各種不一樣的助理來應付各種不一樣的業務範圍那我自己會覺得那其實就是應該是交由委員來判斷說他應該要花多少錢來請一個助理"},{"start":4440.669,"end":4468.027,"text":"那這個助理的職務是什麼這個應該要回到市場的機制來決定這個助理他到底依照他的專業能力他應該領多少的薪水那再依照這個薪水來適用勞動基準法對於這一個助理的保障其實只要大家都依照現行的法律來保障這個助理我覺得這個本質上就會有不會有太大的問題"},{"start":4469.068,"end":4492.9,"text":"那這是第一個問題就在講這個法律定位所以簡單來講就是只要回歸到勞動基準法的保障其實我個人覺得只要助理他委員跟助理之間大家都依循勞動基準法的保障其實這個部分在助理的保障範圍內我覺得是應該是不會有太大的問題的那再來就是第二個問題其實我覺得就是一個非常大災問"},{"start":4494.645,"end":4508.662,"text":"如果先把它當作首先是因為一開始這個在當年立法院組織法32條修法的當時如果我的理解沒錯的話當時的用於使用的是助理研究補助費"},{"start":4510.444,"end":4524.461,"text":"如果是這六個字的話其實好像又依託了說我是要拿來支付助理的薪資而是像剛剛那個老師有提到就是很類似那個國科會的研究補助費"},{"start":4526.004,"end":4545.525,"text":"如果是以這個概念去看它的話其實它的用途是很多元的只要是為了助理的研究而給予的補助都應該是這個費用的範圍內那助理的薪資只會是這個費用的其中一個支出的項目"},{"start":4547.352,"end":4576.428,"text":"那現在大家好像都只是專注在討論就是公費助理的薪資應該怎麼處理我自己覺得就是公款公用是一個應該是一個普世的價值就是如果你的用途就是要用來支付助理的薪資的話那你當然就應該要拿來付助理的薪資因為你這個薪資才會去跟勞動基準法的薪資來做掛鉤然後才會給這個助理他依照勞動基準法應該有的保障"},{"start":4577.088,"end":4595.208,"text":"但這不應該代表說委員在用助理研究補助費的時候就只限於給助理的薪資他應該要有其他的用途那就會剛才很像林教授他提到就是國科會的教授在做研究的時候他其實有很多其他的費用要支出"},{"start":4596.215,"end":4624.065,"text":"所以其實我覺得大家反而應該關注在說在薪資以外其實還有很多的項目是委員在執行職務的時候他必須要支出的然後這個也是為了研究而該有的一個費用這個我覺得就是應該要給委員一個彈性的地方因為當如果你不給這個彈性的時候就會變成是委員他逼不得已只能從助理那邊挖錢老實講這嚴格來講就是變這樣所以與其把這兩個界線把它分清楚然後讓這個使用彈性化"},{"start":4624.565,"end":4638.115,"text":"但是薪資明確化這樣才能真正的保障這個助理的這個權利是說要保障那同時也讓委員在行使職權的時候他有更多的彈性那當然其實另外一個大問題應該是那個檢據核銷檢據核銷就是個大問題當然"},{"start":4643.178,"end":4668.729,"text":"我可以理解就是有部分委員說我們是不是免減拒核銷來提高這個行政的效率然後讓說大家在運用上其實是更加的彈性但我覺得這個會有一個很大的問題就是因為當委員不再去用單據去核銷的時候你反而是很難去解釋說你這個特定的費用是到底做何用途因為如果照我剛才的邏輯就是你分清楚薪資是薪資"},{"start":4670.069,"end":4694.661,"text":"支出的其他研究費用是其他的研究費用其實嚴格來講這時候其實那個檢據核銷的概念我個人覺得不是很大的問題了因為公款公用嘛你應該拿到該有的單據那當然說這個單據上在實務運作上到底要怎麼樣給予彈性到底那個單據本身的形式那個我覺得都是可以再談的因為那個只是執行面上如何去給予委員彈性的問題"},{"start":4696.027,"end":4724.118,"text":"所以嚴格來講如果說歸年成三個我覺得可以提醒的是說我自己覺得是助理薪資還是不應該去定性成委員的個人的薪資因為就我的理解其實當年在修法的時候為什麼會直接劃撥到助理的帳戶就是因為有人顧慮到說會變成會有委員的所得稅的問題那這個其實實質上也不是這樣因為實質上是拿去支付了這個薪資"},{"start":4725.999,"end":4742.347,"text":"所以當年才會有說我們不要直接入到委員的帳戶裡面因為你入到帳戶再去統籌運用就會變成說反而是有稅負的問題到時候解釋上又會有一個很大的問題所以第一點我覺得其實把它認定成是委員的薪資會有很大的其他法規稅務面的問題"},{"start":4744.088,"end":4772.419,"text":"那另外第二點應該是我覺得說其實可以放寬這個檢核的程序啦說程序上來講因為委員是日理萬機嘛你其實只要你的名冊本身每一個助理跟你每一筆費用的支出是公開的 是透明的適度的透明讓選民可以去做監督那薪資你透明的結果就會讓助理本身他的薪資是固定的嘛那薪資固定他該有的勞動精準保障你就應該要給他"},{"start":4773.851,"end":4793.112,"text":"那其實這個形象也間接保障了這個助理的這個依照勞動金融法享有的權限那再來第三點我覺得當然改革是非常重要的就是因為昨天的這個判決其實又讓大家發現說其實法院在解釋 個案在解釋法律的時候確實就會因為現行法律的規定它有很多 應該說"},{"start":4795.134,"end":4809.325,"text":"文藝解釋跟立法目的解釋之間出現了差距那只是每一個解釋者要從哪一個角度去看所以第三個我覺得應該是改革的目的應該是去除刑事的違法而不是去除監督"},{"start":4810.606,"end":4826.753,"text":"就是說讓形式上都是很明確的該的用途就是什麼用途在這個前提又讓委員本身又有很大的彈性同時又保障了這個助理他依照隆重侵犯法應該保障我覺得這才是一個改革應該有的方向那以上是我的前見 謝謝各位好 謝謝吳律師那接下來我們請陳培余委員發言"},{"start":4839.468,"end":4864.556,"text":"好謝謝主席今天召開這個公聽會也非常謝謝今天所有出席的專家學者我要說很可惜的是我們每次在辦相關法案的公聽會的時候都有關係人會出席我們在談助理制度的聘用卻沒有助理被邀請出席我覺得非常遺憾所以呢我們找了一位同仁我們幫他去識別化他此時此刻正是委員辦公室的國會公費助理我們來聽一聽他怎麼說"},{"start":4874.521,"end":4882.97,"text":"時間可以暫停嗎主席謝謝謝謝主席這個案子一天不測"},{"start":4886.572,"end":4906.996,"text":"這個案子一天不撤對助理來說就是一天擔心受怕請兩黨的委員們憑自己的良心你到底要不要照顧你們自己的助理我們大家都不論黨派不論藍綠白我們都站出來反對這件事情立法院經費不管是助理費還是里里叩叩的那些都是國家的錢都是納稅人的錢所以本就已經有這樣一套制度立法委員薪水多少錢然後助理費應該會有多少錢這些應該有什麼用途"},{"start":4907.196,"end":4934.072,"text":"然后陈玉珍这个法案通过之后他就会变成说给大笔钱全部都进他自己的口袋基本上都是立法院官方自己在处理嘛你现在变成说要跟委员去讨论然后什么劳保健保由立法院自己决定那个是不是那个什么劳退每个月6%的那个是不是也没有了在与地位与文不平等的立委作为老板就因此被牺牲这个我们是有很大的疑虑陈玉珍这个法案如果国民党硬是要推的话我们应该是挡不住啦再修正东西进到议场里面之后会变成什么样子我们通通不知道我们没有保障最终还是把助理卖掉都不知道但是至少还是要勇敢去发声作为助理要捍"},{"start":4935.393,"end":4957.808,"text":"為什麼這個案子一定不能撤因為這個案子是布昆奇總召寫的還是什麼立法院法治局提供的所以他高貴到完全不能撤他究竟是為什麼國會助理是有專業的一份工作今天要把我們應有的保障跟工作的權益去取決於在人身上的不是制度身上的時候這份工作的神聖感就已經消失了所以我有在此呼籲說藍綠白各政黨的委員們助理是協助大家工作很重要一部分不要為大家的助理獲取更高的福利"},{"start":4959.704,"end":4977.091,"text":"好 謝謝這位助理現身發聲剛剛有教授談到說他在監察院待過我們來看一下現在在這個相關的預算書裡面呢到底助理費用是怎麼被立法院的預算這邊定義的呢他說按月撥付委員公費助理酬金"},{"start":4977.811,"end":4993.949,"text":"協助委員處理各項問政服務選民按月撥付黨政黨團公費助理酬金協助各個黨團辦理政黨運作相關事宜什麼叫做酬金我們來看一下所謂酬金就是指僱傭契約的薪資或者是承攬契約委任契約的報酬所以他當然"},{"start":4996.872,"end":5014.66,"text":"他當然就是現在所謂的這個人事費用而不是什麼助理費助理費三個字可以解決所以我想立法院自己已經說得很清楚而且這是立法院的預算書那總共在113個立法委員身上會花掉多少錢呢我們即將變成千萬立委的情況下國庫要支出8億多"},{"start":5016.241,"end":5038.464,"text":"每一個立法委員會拿到將近一千萬就是快要八百萬的這個數字我不知道人民怎麼看我們所選出來這113個立法委員即將變成千萬收入的人我覺得非常的荒謬剛剛有非常多專家學者提到幾個重要的關鍵公款公用專款專用簡據核銷還有勞權保障這個原則上我絕對是贊成所以我想先說結論"},{"start":5039.685,"end":5065.183,"text":"第一個我主張應當保障所有公費助理的勞動權益剛剛林志傑老師也有提到了我也支持所有的公費助理站出來為自己的權益發聲跟這些不當的法案對抗請不要再聽陳玉珍瞎扯說我們可以提出再修正動議結論就是到了禮拜五的院會我們根本不知道會收到什麼樣的再修正動議我堅決反對因此我呼籲陳玉珍直接撤案"},{"start":5066.064,"end":5093.401,"text":"重點說三次陳玉珍直接撤案直接撤案直接撤案就對了沒有什麼可以談的我要說這一次關於制度的問題良知的問題可能是陳玉珍傅昆齊等人不想談的韓國瑜也不敢面對的到了助理公會的協商會議上他連簽名都不敢簽名他說了一段不知道說什麼的廢話所以我要說當陳玉珍提案要把助理費變成民貸薪資的一部分的時候就是把助理費變成立法委員自己的小金庫"},{"start":5095.402,"end":5119.054,"text":"這麼簡單明白的道理但是他卻迴避回答再來如果委員不聘請助理那請問立法院還要把這筆錢撥給立法委員嗎上個禮拜的質詢立法院已經回答了答案是是的我再說一次上禮拜質詢王一川委員問立法院相關單位問說如果立法委員沒有請助理請問這800萬一樣會入到立法委員的戶頭嗎答案是是的"},{"start":5119.654,"end":5135.504,"text":"所以這當然就是小金庫喔再來陳玉珍提案助理費要明帶統籌分配不用減去核銷說這是外國先進國家的先例錯大錯特錯以美國的案例來說他就是要減負核銷公開透明上網而且"},{"start":5136.024,"end":5151.625,"text":"沒有用完還要繳回去我再說一次國外相關制度非常清楚的說明但陳玉珍只說他要說只聽他要聽的更荒謬的是當我們把這些錢送進民代的口袋的時候如果不用檢據核銷不用公開透明上網"},{"start":5152.606,"end":5167.951,"text":"剩餘的款項也不用繳回去那就是放任所有名義代表愛怎麼花就怎麼花愛怎麼用就怎麼用助理你要怎麼對待就可以怎麼對待上個禮拜的質詢裡面我親口問法治局局長你怎麼看你自己寫出來的報告"},{"start":5169.071,"end":5190.165,"text":"他被我問完之後他說他也坦承現在對於國會公費助理的保障確實不夠他心中最深的聲音叫做他也認同應該要對公費助理的保障更進一步那我問他你為什麼要寫出這樣的報告是誰授意你寫出這樣的報告過往從來沒有一個法治局局長自己掛第一作者"},{"start":5191.005,"end":5210.016,"text":"出一份報告為什麼你要做這個事情他當然沒有辦法回答我們不為難相關公務人員但我們要問長官授意這個長官到底是誰而這樣的做法真的可以照顧所謂的公費助理嗎更還有人說這叫做進步我不知道進步到哪裡去了我要說陳昀臻這個提案"},{"start":5211.036,"end":5239.217,"text":"就是让每一个民意代表每一年爽爽的领数百万的自肥提案是一个创造贪污破口的提案是一个践踏公费助理劳动权益的提案刚刚还有人说公费助理没有一定要博士才可以当但是我们看到了有助理告诉我们这个工作对他们来说不仅有专业性还有神圣感就以我办公室自己为例我们曾经有各式各样的法案助理不管现职的还是在职的"},{"start":5239.597,"end":5268.269,"text":"不是只有熱情也不是只有專業甚至有很多國會公費助理是有律師資格的是有相關高考資格的他們但是他們基於對立法的熱情他們選擇在這個工作上持續付出持續付出不代表要被持續踐踏我再說一次他們持續的付出不代表他們要被持續踐踏當你們口口聲聲說要照顧年輕人的時候卻在糟蹋這一群在立法院跟我們一起工作的年輕人請問這樣對誰可以交代的過去"},{"start":5269.369,"end":5285.942,"text":"以前我們在公民課上告訴國中生告訴小學五六年級的孩子們說法律是道德的底線但很可惜我看到陳玉珍的提案到目前為止不撤案這根本不是所謂法律是道德底線的體現而是根本就是道德淪喪毫無底線"},{"start":5286.843,"end":5300.398,"text":"我再說一次道德淪喪毫無底線才會提出這種破爛法案所以我要感謝所有為自己站出來的助理工會的助理們我也要說相關幹部的聲明其實已經有很多助理是表達不滿的"},{"start":5301.8,"end":5323.67,"text":"我也希望相關幹部可以持續站在協助公費助理的權益上持續發聲我相信有非常多的立法委員會願意跟大家站在一起我要再度呼籲所有有提案連署的委員撤案撤簽陳玉珍 林思敏 蘇清泉 盧憲一 鄭振前 丁學忠高金素美 陳雪生 邱振軍 洪孟凱 黃仁鄭天才 馬文君 謝龍介 呂玉玲 邱若驊 陳超明"},{"start":5325.191,"end":5326.572,"text":"再次謝謝每一位辛苦的公費助理"},{"start":5336.584,"end":5362.7,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的發言我在這邊稍微做一點點補充說明因為在這個去年不是在這個應該是去年吧在經費集合委員會的時候當時曾經有一個提案然後做過一個決議希望法治局能夠延期相關立法委員和助理之間的聘僱關係所以立法院的法治局後來"},{"start":5363.662,"end":5379,"text":"也做出了這份報告同時當時也要求必須要整個要在我們立法院的官網上面來公告這份報告所以在這裡做一個以上的補充說明好 那接下來我們再邀請楊太順教授發言"},{"start":5392.618,"end":5415.011,"text":"主席各位在場的先進還有媒體朋友大家好我是楊泰順中國文化大學政治學系的教授今天邀請被受邀來做有關助理制度的討論也是感慨良深因為我自己以前也曾經是立法委員的助理"},{"start":5415.936,"end":5431.403,"text":"那我自己就擔任過省議員那我那時候當省議員的時候那時候的助理經費使用就跟今天這個陳昀臻委員訴求改革的這個方向可以說是一致的那時候每個月撥給我們24萬由這個省議員自己來運用"},{"start":5435.504,"end":5446.891,"text":"我印象很深刻有一次我去神醫會上班的時候遇到一位神醫會的先進資深的神醫員他就問我說你用幾個助理"},{"start":5447.816,"end":5472.368,"text":"我說24萬我就用6個他說你笑的 怎麼有人這樣贖你他說他只用一個助理他說那個助理就是他的司機然後他領所有的24萬然後再把24萬裡面他是怎麼運作他當然不會很詳細跟我講不過後來就反正基本上錢就轉到他的這個賬戶裡面去所以今天我們討論這個陳益貞委員的這個提案"},{"start":5476.006,"end":5505.286,"text":"让我感触相当良深因为我现在讲这个事情是30年前的经历结果没想到我们现在立法院又要走回头路走到当年把这个钱全部拨到立法委员私人账户里面由立法委员来做统筹的运用我觉得这个对助理的尊严跟助理的独立性来讲都是相当的不恰当可以说是一个走回头路的一个做法"},{"start":5505.991,"end":5506.011,"text":"那麼"},{"start":5517.284,"end":5544.08,"text":"助理的重要性前面已經包括主持人也特別在發言的時候強調過助理對一個國會問政的品質可以說是非常的重要像擔任過40幾年參議員的美國愛德華·甘迺迪就曾經講過他說他們國會所提出來的法案95%以上都是必須要經過助理來認識的所以助理的"},{"start":5546.221,"end":5561.826,"text":"有些學者就因此表示說今天在民主政治國會運作的情況之下實際上是助理治國所以助理的重要性不言可喻所以我對助理制度的變革我的重點是放在"},{"start":5562.566,"end":5588.253,"text":"如何使得助理能夠穩定能夠讓他們的專業能夠相助委員提出更優質的法案我認為我們的重點應該放在這個上面不管說是立專法也好或者把它放在立法院組織法裡面的專章也好只要能達到這個目的我個人都能夠認同"},{"start":5596.466,"end":5617.634,"text":"助理為什麼重要因為民意代表他的身份他的興趣還有他的出身各不相同所以長久以來助理就必須要由隨著民意代表來同進退接受民意代表的指揮跟命令來做事"},{"start":5618.554,"end":5639.472,"text":"那这就产生了一个矛盾的现象就是一方面我们希望助理具有专业那一方面我们又希望说民意代表能够保持他任用的一个弹性使得助理的工作甚至助理的忠诚度能够符合他的需求可是如果助理他"},{"start":5640.733,"end":5661.392,"text":"他一直是跟著民意代表他的工作是處於一種不穩定的狀態之下我們所期待助理能夠培養他的專業能夠提供民意代表在問政上面的一些見解恐怕就會被打折"},{"start":5667.372,"end":5696.432,"text":"为了处理这个困境我们参考一下其他民主国家的做法我这里就不想太详细的来讲这里面的内容不过我们可以整理英国 德国 美国 日本这几个国家对助理的处理的方式我们可以得到几个结论第一个就是大概这些国家的助理经费都是由国会来拨出来的"},{"start":5697.513,"end":5713.725,"text":"在助理制度上面比较完整的可能就是美国的制度而美国这种行政立法分立的状况也比较符合我们目前的国情所以我认为美国的制度是比较可以来做参考的"},{"start":5714.305,"end":5739.438,"text":"在美国的制度里面它就每年由国会拨出一个专款这个叫MRA的然后所有的助理的经费就从MRA里面拨到由各个议员来领取可是这里面议员可以决定他要聘雇什么样的助理可以决定他这些助理的兴奋"},{"start":5740.278,"end":5764.417,"text":"可是一个很重要的这个差别跟我们现在提案的一个差别就是第一个他必须要公布在网站上面必须要公布在这个国会的这个预算书里面那必须要清楚的陈列出来包括助理的这个背景人事背景还有助理他能够领多少钱都在里面"},{"start":5765.177,"end":5784.21,"text":"那么这样子的一个这个透明度就使得这个委员在处理这个助理的心缝上面那么他受到一定的一个制衡那根据美国的这个记录他这个大概最高薪的这个助理这个是根据20差不多20年的这个资料"},{"start":5785.23,"end":5813.171,"text":"最高薪的助理一年大概可以领到17万美金左右那最低薪的因为美国还有兼任助理这个所谓的实习生制度等等大概只有3000多块一年因为这是给这个实习生的不能列入我们这个讨论所以在这样子的一个那一般来讲平均来讲大概也有这个3万块左右所以16万到3万之间就让助理有一个很大的一个回转的一个空间"},{"start":5813.911,"end":5840.413,"text":"那么日本的做法也有些值得我们参考的就是日本把助理因为日本还是内阁制的国家所以他的这个大概这个问政上面政策的拟定上面主要就是由政党那么来做这个那个人助理对于政策的决定权就比较少所以日本就把这个助理分成两部分大概一个议员大概也只有三个助理"},{"start":5841.113,"end":5856.73,"text":"那一个助理一个就是政策助理另外一个就是一般性的助理那为什么我会特别谈到日本这样子的一种做法因为我们都知道民意代表他要跑选举那么他有很多地方的选期的经营"},{"start":5857.751,"end":5879.113,"text":"那這方面的工作其實並不需要太多的專業的這種知識所以就可以由這個所謂的一般助理來做那至於說在國會裡面的問政那麼對於這個政府的監督等等這個可能就必須要有一些專業性的這個背景所以日本就有設置這樣一個政策秘書的這樣一種"},{"start":5881.455,"end":5899.345,"text":"這種安排那麼在而政策秘書不是任何人都可以去做他必須要通過日本有關政策秘書的這個考試一個特別的考試而這個入取率大概也只有5到10%左右而已那麼所以說入取率可以說是"},{"start":5900.425,"end":5923.898,"text":"相當低可是我們台灣的這個在立法院的運作上面一方面我們對這個政策的監督朝野之間的對立情況很嚴重那麼在這樣的情況之下我覺得我們也應該給予助理有這樣子的一種專業的背景來協助議員來問政可是要兼顧到地方選區的這個經營當然所以我是建議說"},{"start":5927.74,"end":5956.649,"text":"也应该在助理内部再来做政策秘书或者是一般助理这样子的一个简单的分类那么西方国家他的助理随着民意代表同进退可能也会造成我刚刚所担忧的这种助理不稳定的这种状况没有办法培养专业的这样子的一个状况可是以美国的为例来讲美国的助理工作的重点"},{"start":5956.949,"end":5975.107,"text":"并不是在议员的个人助理而是在国会助理跟委员会助理所以我们如果要去看美国的助理制度的话研究者大概都会把注意力放在比如像美国的国会研究处像这一类的国会"},{"start":5975.808,"end":6004.148,"text":"只属于国会的助理还有就是委员会的助理委员会的助理也是比较资深的可是我们在这一方面就比较不会配合议员配合立法委员所以我们在台湾还是把重心都放在立法委员助理的运作上面当然就使得我们对立法委员的助理的稳定性必须要提供更大的保障所以我很简单的来讲一下我对修法的几个看法"},{"start":6004.668,"end":6028.371,"text":"我认为在这个修法上面我们有些在国外的实行多年的例子经验我们在新的草案里面都没有包括进来甚至把它排斥掉比如说有关亲人的任用上我刚刚举的这几个先进民主国家的国会例子来看几乎一致的都不准用"},{"start":6028.911,"end":6052.349,"text":"这个亲属或配偶来担任国会助理尤其美国还特别列出了27种的亲属的身份名列说这些是不能够来担任国会助理的工作另外就是我刚刚也提到薪资的透明度那么必须如果美国的话你甚至可以在台湾上网就可以查得到他的个别助理的这个薪俸"},{"start":6053.47,"end":6080.759,"text":"那另外一个就是监差在这个草案里面还允许有经营商业的那么甚至在不同的团体这个领友兴奉的也可以担任助理我觉得这是相当离谱的一个想法因为以美国来讲那么他没有去规定你能不能监差可是他明白了规定你在国会外的收入不能超过你在国会所领的薪水的10%"},{"start":6082.279,"end":6108.28,"text":"那这个还包括你的稿费你的演讲费等等这些收入所以以这样子的方式来保证助理的专业性那另外就是他的聘雇单位应该是议会而不是委员个人那么经过在议会来聘除了刚刚几位先进所提到的那么在工作上面可以提供比较大的保障之外"},{"start":6109.36,"end":6125.825,"text":"另外也可以讓議會變成一個人才庫將來在委員的轉換的過程當中也可以從議會的人才庫裡面來選用適合他的一些助理那麼以上 謝謝是 非常謝謝楊教授的發言接下來我們再請李聖傑老師發言 謝謝"},{"start":6143.243,"end":6152.266,"text":"不好意思我再補充介紹剛剛到場的專家學者有高思柏高教授謝謝還有羅川賢羅教授謝謝主席召委還有與會的各位先進那我今天呢針對今天的公聽會呢那基本上會用三個面向來跟大家談談這個問題"},{"start":6171.072,"end":6184.743,"text":"那一開始呢我會跟各位做報告關於我們現在目前食物運作呢關於這個使用助理費那如果不符合相關的刑事報銷的規定呢那具體的食物評價的方式"},{"start":6185.622,"end":6200.727,"text":"接下來要跟各位說明在挪用助理費的刑法評價就刑法評價而言目前實務的狀況跟我們在學說上所整理出來的各種類型的回應"},{"start":6201.516,"end":6218.491,"text":"那接下來最後呢我想從這個外國的立法令尤其在德國那跟各位說明我們如果在做細緻的助理費的規範那以及相關未來可能修法的展望那首先呢"},{"start":6219.986,"end":6236.736,"text":"跟大家說明就我想我們這個關於立法委員助理費的使用狀況呢那確實是在這個使用性質上呢那比較沒有疑問的就相關機關的行政函式呢"},{"start":6237.256,"end":6251.457,"text":"那還有以前這邊也同時涉及到地方民意代表的費用資給跟村里長事務補助費的輔助條例都有規範到他很具體他是一個"},{"start":6253.25,"end":6270.011,"text":"屬於司法的僱傭契約就立法院而言基本上助理跟議員在這樣的一個僱傭關係下只是說他的薪資是由我們議會來做編列而且是由國家支出"},{"start":6272.034,"end":6285.682,"text":"以目前我們能不能請李老師可以離麥克風再高一點不然應該聲音太小聲了謝謝主席的提醒接下來就是說在我們的學說所整理的一個實證研究就2015年以來"},{"start":6290.356,"end":6315.444,"text":"那全台灣大概有超過百餘名的這個當然包含地方議會的助理因為涉嫌詐領所謂的助理費經過司法機關的偵查審判然後這一個整體的數量甚至在實證研究的統計數字上高達到整體的"},{"start":6318.98,"end":6324.473,"text":"這個議會的八分之一那這個數字其實相當的驚人那真的我們的"},{"start":6327.581,"end":6353.782,"text":"議員那都是要中保私囊嗎那可能需要怎麼樣再去做相關的行為類型做具體的分類研究那基本上我大概把我們現在所看到的在做真正的判決所呈現出來的所謂的這個助理費濫用助理費然後被做這個刑法評價而且遭受判刑"},{"start":6354.552,"end":6379.685,"text":"大概歸類成幾個類型首先第一個就是說用人頭帳戶私吞這個基本上這個就是公費私用了這個私吞譬如說做自己的住屋的裝潢甚至自己去買車子這個大概就比較沒有很多爭議的狀況當然這邊也表現說大概不會"},{"start":6380.945,"end":6408.773,"text":"從這個角度來看的話那直接抵觸了這一個所謂的助理費就是相關國會議員的實質補貼那如果是實質補貼的話基本上就不需要有任何一種報銷的可能那接下來就是我們再來看看也有曾經有這樣的案子是針對這一個公費助理費因為在聘助"},{"start":6409.711,"end":6426.59,"text":"聘請這一個助理呢 員額不足然後他自己私聘的比較多人這時候做了這一種人頭的移轉這個也曾經被判過刑然後接下來就是說把公費助理的款項"},{"start":6428.132,"end":6451.774,"text":"雖然它不是用於私用可是在整個使用處理的多元方向上仍然可以被歸類為是屬於公共事務的使用例如做辦公室的支出或者是以民意代表來講的話做跑紅白匹的時候的支出"},{"start":6453.518,"end":6471.363,"text":"接下來我想說明說明的是在挪用助理費的刑法評價這邊主要涉及的在做食物判決的時候都是針對貪污罪條例第五條第一項第二款所謂的利用植物榨取財務罪"},{"start":6473.143,"end":6488.69,"text":"學理上也比較多從這一種利用植物榨取財物的韓式解釋去做說明然後在我提供給大院的資料上基本上有整理了國內的刑法學者的一些意見我這簡單做口頭說明所謂利用植物榨取財務罪"},{"start":6494.272,"end":6522.371,"text":"基本上就貪污自衛條例而言那法定刑規範的是算是重罪啦是屬於七年以上有期徒刑的罪然後就構成要鑑定職務上的機會呢那接下來這個刑法學者對於所謂的職務上的利用職務上的機會那確實做了一些有不同主張的含色那有認為說這個所謂的限於職務上的機會呢那做一個比較廣義的解釋那只要是認為"},{"start":6524.25,"end":6550.512,"text":"跟植物有關對不起比較狹義的解釋認為說必須做具體的一個植物的規定然後才被含設到這個所謂利用植物的機會那當然也有說做比較廣義的解釋那所謂的這個植物行為就是包含了這一個植物上所衍生的一切機會那這個時候就有可能把這一個"},{"start":6552.183,"end":6569.693,"text":"挪用助理費的這個含色可能經由利用植物榨取然後的利用植物的這個語意做比較擴大的試用那接下來我想最後時間的關係那我希望說這個就這個所謂的我們他們就會條例在處理這一種"},{"start":6574.695,"end":6598.137,"text":"利用植物榨取財務罪回到刑法的解釋來的話我們很在乎這一個規範的目的就這個規範的目的過往比較沒有問題的就是說公務員違背植物的公正性不過違背植物的公正性一個比較抽象的內涵近來有更針對這個行為類型"},{"start":6599.978,"end":6622.768,"text":"那分別把他狹義的表現為所謂的呃就是呃呃呈現一個行為規範讓這一個呃呈現公務員的不可收買性那我想不可收買是一個行為類型了那所謂的不可收買我們一定更在乎的就是那為什麼公務員的不可收買那這邊呢如果從這個聯合國反貪腐公約的精神"},{"start":6623.368,"end":6638.802,"text":"那所謂的不可收買其實就聯合國反貪腐公約而言已經包含到私部門的行為類似我們國家現在還沒有那聯合國反貪腐公約其實也已經在"},{"start":6640.203,"end":6662.363,"text":"他的公約內容裡面做了很明確的定罪建議就是希望有商務業賄賂罪所以就聯合國反貪腐公約的精神來講的話大概的所謂的不可收買的更上位的思考可以去連結到社會的資源公平的分配這樣的一個期待"},{"start":6663.164,"end":6684.845,"text":"那如果從資源公平分配的期待來看的話既然我們現在的助理費呢是屬於國家的對於立委跟這個助理在一個私的聘僱關係的薪資的國家的撥給那我們就要去思考在這樣的撥給前提下呢"},{"start":6685.325,"end":6708.634,"text":"那希望達成的目的是什麼那我自己認為陳儒前面幾位先進都有提到這個問題我們這個由國家撥給的主要目的基本上就是為了提升問政品質這個我想這個就相關的國會議員做助理費的支出的時候"},{"start":6714.521,"end":6739.767,"text":"為什麼國家要參與如果它只是一個私人契約的話就我們希望說提升這個問證品質達到公共利益所以我們曾經有最高法院的判決也有提到說在這個總額不變多元應用的前提下比較彈性的去適用或者是解釋助理費應用的狀況"},{"start":6742.028,"end":6757.959,"text":"剛剛幾位先進都有提到外國立法力的問題尤其像在日本跟在德國都有具體的規定聘任助理的時候這個費用是由國家支出可是在這個經費核銷上面"},{"start":6759.477,"end":6779.404,"text":"就具體的規定而言很明顯他是不能夠聘任自己的親戚如果從這一個助理的實質補貼來講的話聘任自己的親戚其實是不會受規範的這邊更可以了解到基於問政的需要國家對於聘任助理的規範 謝謝"},{"start":6783.347,"end":6788.997,"text":"好 謝謝李教授的發言那接下來我們請廖國祥 廖律師發言"},{"start":6797.345,"end":6813.233,"text":"主席各位先進大家好我是廖國祥我是廖國祥律師今天跟大家談一下說這場公聽會其實我們名目上是說要健全中央跟地方民意代表的聘用治理制度如果是要健全這個制度的話那當然是可以討論的"},{"start":6814.393,"end":6840.469,"text":"但是如果很單純的是因為這個原因的話那其實過去兩週也不會引發那麼多的爭議跟討論以及不滿甚至連國會助理都跳出來炸鍋了為什麼呢因為有奇怪的提案混進來了具體來說國民黨的陳昱臻委員提案修改立法院組織法主張說要把原本應該專款專用的這個公費助理的經費改成讓立委可以統籌運用而且免減負擔去核銷"},{"start":6841.77,"end":6864.212,"text":"那這個跟立法院回覆給特定個案法院的陳審法官的時候說助理費本來就是給立委彈性運用的說法好像如出一策那雖然說提案的理由說得冠冕堂皇說得很好聽說是為了給立委彈性解決制度的僵化但是如果我們仔細看不論是法條的結構還是實質的影響這個修法的問題都非常的大"},{"start":6865.293,"end":6882.771,"text":"而且它不僅混淆了指定用途的補助跟立委薪水之間的一個法律上面的界限除此之外還有諸多的疑慮我這邊分四點跟大家報告為什麼我們不應該支持這樣子的修法第一點我們先從法律的定性來看"},{"start":6883.812,"end":6901.764,"text":"立法院給法院的個案的公函說助理費本來就是給立委的實質補助實質津貼所以可以彈性運用但我這邊要強調就算認為是補助助理費也是公法上面的指定用途的補助用途就是聘任公費的助理"},{"start":6902.684,"end":6925.709,"text":"絕對不是說他是立法委員的實質薪資我想這個大家都可以接受這樣的結論以地方民貸所適用的那個地方民貸費用支給補助條例來說他的名目也叫做一元助理補助費啊但是並不是說叫做補助費那就是全部都是立委個人的私產絕對不是這個樣子那依照現行的法律制度以及長期的司法的實務見解來看"},{"start":6928.61,"end":6952.559,"text":"這樣子的補助費它的性質就是公法上面的指定用途補助剛才跟大家報告過了為什麼國家要編列這筆錢這筆預算目的就是考量到民代或者是立委行使職權的時候需要專業的幕僚協助所以由國家直接支付薪水給助理換句話來說這筆錢的處分權從來都不屬於立委不屬於民代個人立委只有幫忙找人去申報行政上的權限而沒有這筆錢的實質的所有權"},{"start":6954.66,"end":6978.205,"text":"如果修法把它變成說免檢拒核銷的話那意味著就是說立委可以把這筆錢當作是個人的私產自由支配不用跟國家交代說我錢花到哪裡去了這導致的是公款跟私款的界限完全的在法律上面被抹消被消失了原本應該進到助理戶頭的薪水變成了立委的個人的私房錢或者說小金庫這個絕對不是大家所樂見的"},{"start":6979.065,"end":7004.696,"text":"所以換句話來說這筆錢在法律上面的性質上它會因為這樣子的修法變成個人的待遇或定額津貼可是這個跟我們看跟憲法徵求條文第八條的規定也不一樣徵求條文第八條說立法委員的報酬或待遇應以法律定之這樣子的立法精神其實就是要讓立法委員的薪酬待遇受到嚴謹的法律保留以及社會的監督防止立委隨便的利用職權幫自己加薪"},{"start":7005.456,"end":7032.75,"text":"然後立法委員行用法第13條也沒有規定了立法委員的待遇之期比照中央部會所掌的標準那今天這樣的提案他不去走正常的修法的路線不去針對立法委員的薪酬待遇去做公開辯論去調整他自己的待遇反而是想要透過立法院組織法的手段把原本應該屬於助理的薪資原本應該屬於這樣子的公費補助的薪資挪用變成了立委個人可以支配的飲食薪資或者是小金庫這樣的手段在法律評價上他無疑是假借改革之名"},{"start":7033.63,"end":7059.049,"text":"假借保護助理制度之名 健全治理制度之名 行變向自肥之實這不只是立法技術極端的拙劣出操在政治倫理上更是辜負了選民的富途 這是第一點第二點的部分 我們要談談說這個其實也會有相關的國安風險廢除核銷制度等於是廢除可追蹤性這可能會變成一個滲透的破口因為立法院是國家最高的立法機關職權涉及到包含國防外交的機密預算等等的"},{"start":7060.09,"end":7085.889,"text":"這裡面的人員進出跟資訊接觸的權限直接關乎到國家安全現行的檢拒核銷制度雖然說行政程序上可能會有一些比較繁瑣的地方但它實質也發揮了人員實名制或者是可追蹤性的一個控管的功能如果廢除這樣的核銷制度會造成怎樣的結果呢第一個 它會造成幽靈助理或人力黑箱一旦立法院允許了免檢拒單據然後統籌運用立法委員就有一個不受監督不受監管的資金池"},{"start":7086.369,"end":7114.519,"text":"立法委員可以利用這筆錢私下去聘用沒有列在立法院正式名冊的人員這一些人就會變成國會的幼女人口他們可能實際在立法院委員的辦公室工作參與法案的起草甚至陪同立法委員出席相關的會議但是他們的姓名 背景 國籍以及資金來源完全脫離立法院甚至是整體的監控這就是人為製造了一個巨大的國會的人力的黑箱第二個 這會開始到境外勝利滲透了方便大門"},{"start":7115.461,"end":7136.782,"text":"在資金流向跟人員名單雙重不透明的情況下等於是為敵對勢力或者特定的利益團體開了大門首先是資金的斷鏈外部勢力可以透過代付薪資掛名贊助的方式安插人力助理進來國會辦公室那也因為立委採取統籌的方式去發薪水減掉他難以區分這個助理的薪水到底是來自於國庫還是混入了境外的不明的資金"},{"start":7138.023,"end":7161.228,"text":"那再來是責任的斷鏈一旦發生泄密供給案或者非法無遊說事件的話因為這些人都是編制外的沒有官方的聘用紀錄沒有這個資金可以溯源性所以立法委員可以輕易的推卸責任說這個只是志工 只是訪客導致法律責任難以追究讓國會的保密防疫機制形同虛設那在地緣政治如此緊張之下那在資訊戰 滲透戰如此激烈之下呢廢除助理費的實質核銷"},{"start":7163.048,"end":7182.534,"text":"機制無意識給予滲透來源更多上下其手的空間第三個這會造成立委助理的勞動條件完全崩壞如果將助理費的經費徹底變成立法委員私有化然後徹底變成立法委員支配的財產的話其實就是把助理法定的薪資保障權讓渡給立法委員個人的自益財糧"},{"start":7183.274,"end":7199.361,"text":"在現行制度下立法委員必須要申報薪資然後立法院直接匯入住你的帳戶裡面這至少確保了金流的透明性跟專款專用的性質那如果改由立委去統籌分配在缺乏監督的機制下那很有可能立法委員會把大多數的資金拿去做個人用途或其他公關用途"},{"start":7199.781,"end":7222.078,"text":"那壓榨徹底的去壓榨立法委員助理們的工資那這樣子不只是造成勞動權益的倒退更會讓國會的人才劣幣取儲良幣最後一點這是一個司法正義跟立法正義的一個極大的破壞為什麼因為這個法案很多人在質疑這是不是變相的為所謂的助理費貪污去做特色去做各樣的立法"},{"start":7222.498,"end":7239.88,"text":"目前司法機關正在偵辦的很多立法委員或是民代詐領助理費的案件它的核心爭點是什麼核心爭點就是你的公款是不是私用啊是不是虛報人頭去領這一筆公款領這一筆經費那如果立法院通過這個修法的話確定說助理費可以由立委或者是"},{"start":7240.28,"end":7263.129,"text":"地方的民貸統籌運用的話這等同於在立法上面在法律上面承認說這一筆權本來就是立法委員或者是民貸可以自由支配的款項自然就不會有貪污的問題了而且無論是明文是否規定溯及既往喔在法律的適用上將來譬如說我是律師我遇到當事人找我的話那我會打什麼一定打的是重新原則能不能適用是一回事但是它總歸它會變成一個法律上面的爭議這會讓過往的"},{"start":7265.49,"end":7294.85,"text":"違法行為是否得以除罪化都變成一個爭議這樣形同是對於涉貪立委涉貪的民代進行個案立法跟自我特赦立法者如果透過修法來為自己的行為自己的脫法行為去脫責的話這會徹底摧毀人民對立法權的信任雖然說我們昨天也發現說好像也不用那麼麻煩只要說遇到對的法官就好了但是那另外一回事所以總結來說所謂的制度彈性不能建立在犧牲制度的透明性不能犧牲法治原則跟國家安全之上如果以改革之名行貪污除罪化之詞這是全民都沒辦法接受的以上謝謝大家"},{"start":7297.162,"end":7301.494,"text":"好 謝謝廖律師那接下來我們再請林師某 林大律師"},{"start":7312.979,"end":7332.57,"text":"主席在場各位先進好我是林師母 林律師很榮幸應邀今天來對 可能麻煩很榮幸今天應邀來出席這個公聽會來表示一些個人長期以來的法律意見如果就因為昨天剛好有高峰安前議員的判決事實上"},{"start":7333.49,"end":7356.375,"text":"我們就確定的部分我們先不要提就已經確定的部分他是用刑法214條跟以往的其他案例一樣都要使公園登賽不實來判處他六月徒刑確定但是我們有沒有考慮到這條是人民使公園登賽不實所以表示這當中的意涵是什麼這就是我今天要介紹的我們要釐清"},{"start":7358.496,"end":7375.494,"text":"國會助理跟立法院跟立法委員還有民意代表之間的法律關係是什麼我今天提出一個我三十幾年前到現在相同見解就國庫行政私經行為的看法給各位做參考因為如果適用"},{"start":7377.14,"end":7404.971,"text":"214條來判就是表示他是人民使公務員登在不實如果是說都是用有貪污罪適用的前提都是所謂公務員那這樣他是不是長期來食物的見解是不是都錯了是應該要用刑法213條跟216條刑事偽造式文書因為如果立法院申報助理的薪資這一件或費用這件事是又站在公務員的身份來做的話"},{"start":7406.209,"end":7432.847,"text":"他是不是就公園登在不實再交給立法院去審查那是不是就是過程公園行使不實制文書罪所以從長久以來實務上都一直在用貪污罪跟214來判所謂議員或國會助理的代理會問題恐怕他潛在一個原因就是什麼立法委員或民意代表在這時候是站在人民的地位為什麼我們來詳細分析給各位聽"},{"start":7437.91,"end":7459.559,"text":"昨天的高官判決事實上是從幾個角度就貪污罪 判決污罪第一個是從立法嚴格跟預算編定方式還有主計單位的意見還有包括立法院的意見所以認為他是實質補貼但是實質補貼是不是應該就要處罪呢我提供一個吳剛教授的看法"},{"start":7460.399,"end":7480.779,"text":"他眾指是屬於國庫行政裡面用司法方式來達到行政目的國庫行政司經行為或是所謂行政司法吳庚老師的書也都講很清楚我在今天提出的報告裡面有附件他都還是要受公法的某種拘束公法某種拘束所以我今天個人的見解是說"},{"start":7481.98,"end":7506.882,"text":"除罪不是除全部的罪 只負政治責任而是要除貪污罪 校正回歸到普通刑法事實上 真的哪天實務間諜都統一或是我們修法把它定性為實質補貼因為它既然是公會來補助助理那當然還是要受到公法上的監督武耕老師的書在國庫行政跟私信行為那邊講得很清楚"},{"start":7507.563,"end":7535.508,"text":"因為我個人在民國82年到84年之間就台電台廠中油公司的員工涉嫌被訴貪污罪我都用國庫行政行為來判業務侵佔或詐欺其中有一個比較有名的案子就是後來甚至變成修法之間的一個參考一個判決就是最高法院90年台上4858號的判決事實上這判決是我在84年"},{"start":7537.569,"end":7548.279,"text":"6月29號就高雄電源84連數字17271號一個退伍費的員工基於他這個退伍費跟台電公司簽約來收電費結果侵佔了電費150幾萬"},{"start":7552.52,"end":7568.437,"text":"我個人用業務侵佔判他因為他已經把錢還了所以判他反刑結果這案子單純一個單純的法律事實就這樣而已就到更六之後上訴罪告法案罪案才為之貪污罪來判這判決對不對是另外一回事但是就表示"},{"start":7569.758,"end":7586.651,"text":"在民國94年公務員法公務員的立法定義修法之前呢的確對造型有很大問題所以才後來才有刑法第四條第二項的修正包括第二項授權公務員但是我們來看呢今天大家基本普遍的說法是"},{"start":7587.979,"end":7612.227,"text":"國會助理並不是立法院的職員是跟議員跟立法委員同進退的所以他的法律關係存在於議員跟助理之間而且適用勞動基準法所以並不是沒有保障而是適用勞動基準法的保障那在這個時候如果把它解讀成國務行政也就是私經行政裡面的一種類型"},{"start":7613.467,"end":7629.641,"text":"以司法方式來達到行政目的公會來補助議員來得有能力聘請助理來達成一個來達成他的行政目的因為立法本身就多元了因為我們現在環境多元像現在AI的問題是不是"},{"start":7630.859,"end":7656.929,"text":"你問哪個立法院他能夠對AI全部都答覆恐怕很難所以他當然就需要這方面的助理如果他哪天要推動這種法案或是除了公聽會以外恐怕就有這方面的助理才有辦法所以助理對國會的問政是不可或缺的大家都知道但是他定性的法律關係我在30多年來以前當法官現在當律師我都始終都認為"},{"start":7658.85,"end":7679.956,"text":"國會助理的法律關係事實上是一種行政司法的問題或是以司法方式來達到行政目的因為立法案組出來三十二條講得很清楚立法委員跟助理是用勞基法既然是用勞基法他就司法關係而這是公會來補助所以他基本上"},{"start":7681.42,"end":7705.002,"text":"並不是所謂除罪並不應該說把貪污罪除掉我也不贊成用貪污罪除掉而是要校正回歸 刑法要不要檢舉核銷既然要受公法的拘束當然要透明所以全世界各國對公會補助都有透明化的制度是有它的道理所在的所以個人的見解是這樣的事實上在實務上你看"},{"start":7706.243,"end":7725.399,"text":"公務員的國民旅遊卡為什麼他公務員但是他拿國民旅遊卡去榨漆根本沒有消費甚至去換金條換兌回現金就是要等國民旅遊卡拿國民旅遊卡去兌換現金回來根本沒有真的消費為什麼多數的判決都認為他只是"},{"start":7727.113,"end":7748.239,"text":"都認得他只是什麼來普通詐欺罪還有大學 事實上還有大學教授當時的研究經費最高法院認得他第一個他不是去公園深論而且他在決議裡面提出一個很重要的觀點貪污罪成立必須要兩個要件第一個是內部性就有公園深論第二個外部性行使公權力所以這時候"},{"start":7750.611,"end":7764.069,"text":"國會議員或各地方議員就補助會有涉嫌舞弊的時候包括幽靈助理或是說根本不實在的這種情況在這種情況應該怎麼處理"},{"start":7768.517,"end":7788.611,"text":"他並不是在 他是利用 他是有議員的身份利用國家補助司法關鍵的過程中就用刑法134條來看 他就是利用有公務員身份的這機會來獲取不當的利益來謀利所以這個時候我們認為說這個時候他應該是什麼來"},{"start":7791.221,"end":7807.749,"text":"頂多成立刑法的堵石罪就134加339或是單純的339的犯罪因為昨天高峰安的判決高院認為說他沒有詐欺的故意所以他沒有貪污的問題也沒有刑法詐欺的問題所以我個人的看法是說從實務上來看為什麼國民旅遊卡"},{"start":7815.663,"end":7844.717,"text":"公爺身份他就不可能貪污罪何況我自己我在報告裡面有提到我以前辦過的案子警察當議員的隨乎人員他冒領了超刑津貼高等法院的判決直接說他跟執行職務無關跟執行職務無關也就是欠接外部性剛才講我們最高法院對大學教授研究報研究會那個案子他說要內部性跟外部性為什麼超刑津貼的案子"},{"start":7846.74,"end":7864.985,"text":"同樣是警察還是公務人員為什麼會判普通詐欺罪而已因為台灣高等法院的確定判決說這時候他博物室在行動的公決定義跟職務無關所以我們認為說做一個限定時間定義我既然有提出書面報告我們做一個簡單的結論"},{"start":7866.405,"end":7882.507,"text":"我個人主張說如果要除罪不是整個罪都除掉因為他本來他國庫行政就像政務採購法他也要受到公法拘束一樣所以應該校正回歸"},{"start":7883.729,"end":7909.067,"text":"不適用可以修法把它明定明定不適用貪污罪而回歸刑法的適用這是可以接受的第二個剛才舒子喬教授有提到說薪水如果納入國會議員的國會助理立法委員的帳戶裡面會有稅的問題因為立法委員是個人所得會有報稅的問題這個時候在修法的時候可以明定把它排除"},{"start":7909.887,"end":7930.593,"text":"就是經由立法院來補助助理薪水的部分他實際付出以後他可以扣除那這樣就沒有稅的問題所以我是個人以上的建議所以除罪並不是真的把貪污罪除掉而是較甚回歸到刑法的適用檢據核銷基本上也是一個監督的行為我建議也是不需要取消的好 謝謝"},{"start":7933.68,"end":7945.37,"text":"好謝謝林律師的發言那接下來我們就請鍾嘉斌委員發言那在鍾嘉斌委員發言之後我們中間就休息個五分鐘好然後讓大家上洗手間之後我們再繼續"},{"start":7952.23,"end":7977.975,"text":"好 謝謝主席那在場的學者 專家 各界代表還有我們立法院的副秘書長好 我們來先問一個問題今天的題目呢是中央民代跟地方民代奇怪了 中央民代跟地方民代難道是同樣的東西嗎立法委員領誰的薪水地方縣市議員領誰的薪水大家有沒有想過他到底是不是領薪水我們來看一下"},{"start":7978.835,"end":7983.508,"text":"其實立法委員是有領待欲算是薪水的"},{"start":7984.249,"end":8009.92,"text":"根據過去曾經有過的立法委員監察委員過去的監察委員也是國會議員他是間接選舉出來的稅費公費的資給暫行條例曾經短暫的規範過這些人國會議員是有資領什麼資領酬勞待遇的而且根據我們地方制度法地方的官民意代表就不太一樣我們比照一下我們知道民意代表過去領的薪水叫做稅費公費"},{"start":8011.201,"end":8029.382,"text":"地方民營代表是研究費研究費是薪水嗎好 再來看我們投保我們的職業保險立法委員一定是比照投保公務人員公保但是地方民貸呢他可以選擇參加勞保尤其是他本來就有勞保的人他根本不參加公保再來職業限制"},{"start":8030.41,"end":8046.195,"text":"立法委員規定他不得增任官吏在憲法裡面他不得執行業務在立法委員行為法裡面而且不得置領國營企業的薪資那麼如果是地方的名單大概只有利益迴避原則的適用他沒有辦法兼任公務員跟老師所以你會發現"},{"start":8047.375,"end":8073.621,"text":"很多地方的議員他原來是教師他選上之後他就怎樣他把他的教師就保留他去當議員好 我們往下看好 我們看最近影響到我們今天討論的這個助理費到底是什麼我們看到有一個高雄安案出爐了這裡面高院判決說他撤銷他的貪污部分無罪但是他有公務人員登載不實奇怪了 那貪污費跟貪污治罪條例無關嗎我們來看一下"},{"start":8075.882,"end":8100.668,"text":"其實最近陳育臻委員很紅他有一個被認為是自肥除罪的法案但是法務部馬上打臉在上週的時候法務部說根據4-499號這個你要是有對於自己有利的修法要到次界才實施如果真的要幫有些貪污助理會的人除罪就像你現在修法了就算這個法可以除罪也是到下屆才能適用"},{"start":8101.388,"end":8125.176,"text":"但是有没有办法除罪呢我们往下看我们问了法务部法务部说这个没有改变贪污自罪条例的构成要件立法院组织法第32条就算修法过了也不用刑法不是用刑法第2条它除罪无效我们就很好奇没有用本届不能用也没有效果的法案还有需要维持吗我们再往下看"},{"start":8125.916,"end":8142.864,"text":"其實這一個高雄案的二審法官他審清申請釋憲他在1月2號的時候說認為他在審理高雄案的時候認為立法院組織法32條違反法規範的明確性可是憲法法庭說怎樣不受理"},{"start":8143.764,"end":8147.347,"text":"為什麼不受理這跟我們二審法官高峰案有關聯嗎他說這個裁定154號的裁定說"},{"start":8174.445,"end":8193.463,"text":"大法官都这样讲了所以有三个问题第一他导致被告受刑罚的法律是贪污自罪条例不是立法院组织法第二该案挪用助理费是不是违反贪污自罪条例大法官说按你们法官自己判断最后事实认定法律解释这个是法官二审法官你要做的事情我们往下看"},{"start":8194.224,"end":8216.413,"text":"高院的见解是什么高院的见解在这次法官判的见解他说他是实质补助可以弹性云支是委员以雇主的身份统筹他是属于补助费的性质讲得非常好听所以只要没有放进自己的口袋花掉就是合理的吗就是合法的吗我们来看一下助理会可以去支付Massalati的费用吗"},{"start":8217.614,"end":8228.749,"text":"這個之前有詐助理費買貓砂交羈押的這是地方的議員可以購買禮品 贊助 禮名活動嗎曾經有人拿11萬的助理費去繳信用卡如果是實質補貼可以拿來買飼料繳車費 繳卡費 跑紅牌場那都可以嗎我們來問這個問題"},{"start":8234.884,"end":8251.937,"text":"租體費不管他名目怎麼稱是不是歸誰支配他是公款 重算沒有貪污 沒有私吞但是沒有私吞不等於你有沒有私用也分不出是不是有公用關於告黃漢案法官只證明了他沒有私吞不構成貪污"},{"start":8253.098,"end":8276.501,"text":"但是這個錢用在哪裡去法官不論法官只說他這個讓公務員登載不實公務員登載的是助理的薪資費你沒有用在薪資費登載不實至於你用在哪裡我就不管我們再往下看所以去貼雙眼買雙眼皮貼去洗頭去美甲沒有把公款私吞不等於沒有拿來私用更不等於公款公用"},{"start":8277.162,"end":8296.964,"text":"所以我們立法院組織法它說第32條辦公等費用等付表有規定如果這個規定不足的你就可以來施用嗎往下看所以說工會助理的法制化公款公用是最透明就算它是屬於被認定為實質補助彈性運用但它跟立委的酬金和加班費"},{"start":8297.645,"end":8308.978,"text":"以雇主身份統籌管理這些概念我們還是要回歸到目前我們立法院工會助理任用法當中他把他的任用 資訊 訓練都訂出來了名冊 限制都寫出來了這樣經費來源才確定明顯所以規定明確專業任人"},{"start":8317.607,"end":8337.705,"text":"不能為輕等的照樣鏡往下看所以最後我們的主張個人的主張認為助理費的法治化應該討論的是立法院公費助理任用法的草案而且我們支持我們也支持民眾黨的總召黃國昌委員他說的公款公用但是在這裡也要請黃國昌總召回去想一想"},{"start":8338.765,"end":8354.954,"text":"購鴻安本身在立委期間是民眾黨的公職他的私用實質補助就算是實質補助他算不上是公款公用還是把公款私用我想這留下一個大問號讓我們繼續看後面的觀察 以上好 謝謝鍾委員那我們接下來就先休息五分鐘之後然後我們再繼續"},{"start":8711.124,"end":8716.596,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在的會議繼續那接下來我們就有請吳益正議員發言"},{"start":8730.566,"end":8745.484,"text":"我是吳怡臻前議員我擔任高雄市議員20年那這20年之前我是擔任國會助理10年那所以說人家比較說我當國會助理的工作的生活我們說的沒多久沒幾年"},{"start":8747.159,"end":8772.395,"text":"但是做得很快樂 因為那是你的熱情 你的理想在那邊充分可以表現 現在的空污費當年只是我那個年輕大學剛畢業提一個在預算審查的附帶決議必須要科增空污費 到現在當然整個使用標準跟我們的理想還有很多變化但我講的助理的影響力 專業的助理可以影響一個國家政策"},{"start":8773.604,"end":8796.665,"text":"是非常深遠也非常有意義那我擔任議員20年我的同仁還有記者每次看到我都奇怪你對助理怎麼那麼客氣怎麼那麼好我說我當過處理10年我知道助理的辛苦而且在地方整個對給助理的待遇非常不夠所以我們都一直體諒用抱歉的心理"},{"start":8797.995,"end":8821.307,"text":"所以說這個整個實務上我們有一些經驗跟大家分享那我講的在這裡我當任議員的第一年還是第二年我就接到我們高雄市所有的校長的陳情他是什麼我們行政要追查因為國民旅遊卡有違規使用你想想看校長"},{"start":8822.739,"end":8838.517,"text":"是我們所謂職業裡面大家說國內外天下雜誌曾經做過的是最受到尊重的一個職業連他們都會擔心這個問題因為法律不明確那時候我跟謝昌廷市長他是學法律的"},{"start":8839.605,"end":8864.523,"text":"我們學政治的我說政治上我們常講一個正當性那你一個當一個正當性沒有得到大家的一個這麼多人連校長都會違反的法律表示你對一個明確性不夠明確是不是可以做一些怎麼去面對這個問題後來謝謝前市長崇山如柳他也學法律的所以把這樣的一個所謂的"},{"start":8866.364,"end":8882.66,"text":"透過這樣的解釋就沒有調查這個案子就在那個時候大家就比較安心了那後來又有行政特別費行政所有特資費也是討論很久到最後當然也是透過修法來完成"},{"start":8884.926,"end":8908.637,"text":"那這些就是國民旅遊卡還有行政特別費國務機要費 民代助理費幾乎這20年我就看這些新聞跑來跑去那當前三個都解決不管他是有些人不同意還是怎麼樣但至少大個社會都可以接受結論就是從刑事風險到性質釐清到制度化 儲罪化共同的脈絡我們大家來討論"},{"start":8910.305,"end":8924.796,"text":"那這些就是國民旅遊卡大概有它的本質 它核心用途但是它有一個共通點就是是為國家貸款貸付的公款都不是 是制度上的交付及特定職務人員自行裁量的支援"},{"start":8926.653,"end":8953.174,"text":"那立法跟司法的共同轉折點的邏輯上我想國民旅遊卡他已經知道了行政特別費也出罪然後國際要費也是一樣明代到現在其實他在兩次四限案已經定案了在國民大會代表的時候曾經那時候擔任立法委員的陳水扁陳總前總統他們提出的一個四限案前提也是說明代的"},{"start":8954.102,"end":8964.981,"text":"研究費跟助理補助費是為報酬以外其他什麼交通什麼都必須檢據的意思前提就是說研究費跟所謂的助理"},{"start":8966.531,"end":8983.62,"text":"補助費都是所謂的民貸的報酬的一部分這個定性定在這裡但是細節都沒有定修法也沒有講清楚以至造成現在的很多的爭議所以說到現在而且曾經在行政特殊費也要修可是到最後也不曉得為什麼"},{"start":8984.64,"end":9006.437,"text":"無緣無故又不見了還有跟大學的研究費也要一起修後來又復印因為大家社會大眾只是對其中某一個人可能大家的社會印象不好就整個復印都沒有很認真該剔除的剔除 可是該保留的保留大家都沒有理性社會大眾就是這樣互相對立就受傷害的還是那些無辜的"},{"start":9008.175,"end":9021.065,"text":"該要釐清的要釐清不是說無辜有些真的是很惡劣當然不可以出罪所以說這個目前就是修法的整個制度的斷點在這裡那它的相似性它們這四個有它的相似性跟差異性"},{"start":9022.028,"end":9050.042,"text":"那都是制度授權於會計審查用途彈性無法足比對價重在職務功能而非私人簽歷他是政治責任大於行事責任但他的為何助理會到現在還沒解他還沒有講清楚第一個因為助理會的特殊困境還有他是非行政體系屬於民意代表我來我到代表我上當議員的時候代表高雄市議會到內政部前後開了五年不知道多少次的一個助理修改費"},{"start":9052.213,"end":9075.993,"text":"公共的公共的領個補助費就回去了車馬補助費就回去了根本就沒有結果不理那法源第三個法源他的多維補助辦法但是沒有明確的一個母法第四個大家社會對民代高度的不信任我那時候當民意代表我只有一個標準希望小孩在學校不要讓他知道他爸爸當民代"},{"start":9077.22,"end":9098.666,"text":"萬一知道呢 是無依證那他還算一個好議員這是我的一個最低標準包括我們自己對明代的一個不信任第五 制度就是為及時立法承接事件案後面的整個立法工作所以今天立法院願意來討論帶有很多不同的意見我覺得在講測案是對一個"},{"start":9100.186,"end":9124.908,"text":"當任助理也好當民營代表都不是最好的選擇應該要提出你相對你的理想的修法方式所有的公共討論所有的意見到最後都要回歸立法或修法才能整個才能夠完成而不是很多討論的意見非常好但最後都是要放到所謂的立法或修法的具體的一個法條才能真正整個改革"},{"start":9126.864,"end":9146.121,"text":"那結論 我想這四大國民流卡特資費 國際要費都已完成性質也釐清了 也制度化了 也排除貪污刑責但是其他罪並沒有包括剛講的很多宣説專家所提的有犯其他法 還是有刑法 還是有刑責所以說我們上次說這個立法接軌造成今天的一個立法爭議下一個"},{"start":9153.581,"end":9177.591,"text":"那我講的到最後你所有的爭議還是要談到具體的我認為這個第一個要修正的就是按照這樣的一個司法大法官會議解釋他是屬於民代的執行報酬所以說他是但是所以即使直接支付給助理他所有權還是屬於民代但是不是他想要怎麼樣就怎麼樣這不是說這樣是處罪的話不要誤會所以說這是一個第一個"},{"start":9181.753,"end":9196.611,"text":"定位還有報酬第二個現在很多出現問題的就是說我們只叫助理補助費助理就想到只有人員助理但沒有想到助理你要在馬路上辦公嗎他都不用交通費不用其他行政資源嗎"},{"start":9197.871,"end":9215.409,"text":"所以說這邊說大家會誤用或者是說會挪用都是發生在這裡所以說我們建議在助理總費總額補助費總額不變彈性部分可以運用在臨時人員剛剛講日薪服務處民代辦公室研究相關支出大家支出一個限制現在"},{"start":9216.61,"end":9241.693,"text":"都不超過前向助理總費用的四分之一這個也是我們在內政部五年五次開會的一個重點大家也都是認為到這個問題所以說希望能夠是不是一部分彈性運用那一部分是二分之一三分之一四分之一還沒有共識就卡在那裡那我在這裡因為我們今年立法院有好不容易真的把24萬加8萬是很好的20年都沒有變這當助理非常辛苦"},{"start":9242.313,"end":9264.391,"text":"但是8萬我認為如果能夠修成當然最好行政費直接合理我問過其他委員包括是小黨的一般平均小黨是跟我們政府一樣平均服務處基本開支是10萬小月大月可能就14萬、15萬、16萬我們的薪水只要會計我們每個月就是會計不要跟我講議員"},{"start":9265.852,"end":9292.497,"text":"這個月不夠多少錢就好了我薪水不擬都沒關係只要付出夠用就好了所以說我想的是說把這樣的一個彈性運用就可以解決大部分合法守法的民意代表而不會碰到這個所謂的違法的問題那碰到了之後到底是變成而且就變成不是只是一個所謂的燈載不死而已它甚至於所謂的貪污秩序條例那到底是貪污還是燈載不死"},{"start":9295.078,"end":9313.697,"text":"法官這麼專業都見解不一樣那麼普通不管明代或者什麼老百姓怎麼辦我想這個是最大的問題所以立法院這一次能夠是不是能夠把各種不同的意見包括助理的權益都能夠在這一次能夠立法來解決這是我們這次的期盼"},{"start":9315.339,"end":9336.77,"text":"最後看到談的跟前面幾位的學者談的都一樣還是要必須要透明可檢核這個才是一個如果違法還是要登載不實之責所以這是我以上的建議我們希望這次不要退卻該提的不同意見的利害關係人助理到地方的民代都能夠提出來來一起修法解決這個問題謝謝好 謝謝吳議員"},{"start":9343.208,"end":9349.442,"text":"那接下來我們有請季凱峰律師"},{"start":9360.615,"end":9386.511,"text":"主席委員還有各位我的老朋友們還有各位學者專家先進大家早安我是紀凱峰律師今天很高興有這個機會來針對陳玉珍委員等人拟據的立法院組織法第32條等的修正草案來這邊以學者專家的身份來發表意見"},{"start":9388.212,"end":9413.23,"text":"我以前是當法官的 所以去年辭職剛好像這種案件 以前大概也有碰過一些所以這個也是來這邊以學者專家身份提供一點淺見 請大院參考陳一貞委員等人拟據立法院組織法第32條等修正草案"},{"start":9414.161,"end":9427.051,"text":"大概就是最主要的目標看起來是把助理費要定性為對民意代表的補助款而且要把它定性成是統籌運用可以由立法委員自己本身統籌運用免減拒核銷"},{"start":9430.902,"end":9459.861,"text":"本人在此呢這個我大概會從以下幾個角度來說明我的意見那先講結論我是持反對意見就如同之前幾位專家學者的意見一樣那我簡單的說明一下第一個我想剛才我們討論那麼多我們可以其實來看一下這個修正條文最主要的以一個司法機關的立場或是一個法律人的立場來講第一步要想的問題是說"},{"start":9461.442,"end":9487.68,"text":"那這筆費用或這筆錢在法律上的定性是什麼啊我們先看一下修正條文第32條這裡面修正條文的明確的是寫是立法院要每年編列每一個立法委員一定數額的助理費及其辦公室務預算補助各委員"},{"start":9490.051,"end":9511.576,"text":"這個是不是從這個條文看起來是助理費這筆錢的用途應該就是要給助理的助理費用但是又說是要補助各委員坦白講我就看不太懂那我們繼續往下看因為就如同像是昨天我們宣判這個高院宣判這個高鴻安這個案子法官也要從"},{"start":9513.41,"end":9538.744,"text":"也要先去追究這筆費用的定性法律定性到底是什麼那要追究法律定性第一步就先看文藝嘛文藝上面既然都寫是助理費所以應該是要助理費啊就是要給助理的錢啊但是呢我們也不能偏廢這個修正的說明立法理由立法理由就有趣啦"},{"start":9541.667,"end":9567.268,"text":"他這樣寫的他說這個未彰顯相關費用屬補助性質所以刪除公費二字然後後來又繼續寫下去他說這筆錢其實是要彌補財力不足而為對立法委員的補助接下來繼續寫助理費性質屬立法委員薪資實質薪資的一部分"},{"start":9569.366,"end":9577.588,"text":"運用範圍也不以助理費為限然後繼續下面繼續寫下去這個修正理由還特別去"},{"start":9579.176,"end":9602.384,"text":"還特別講近期司法實務認為公費助理費用不是實質補貼不是實質補助立法委員的費用而是屬於公費助理的薪資以背離立法原意就是要先去說明這筆錢其實是要給立法委員的錢喔那怎麼條文裡面又說是給助理費啊就有點搞不清楚繼續下面寫他說"},{"start":9604.485,"end":9632.447,"text":"至於立法委員就所有所有權已經歸屬於其的補助費如何運用以及運用妥當與否僅對選民負政治責任不是屬於貪污誌會條例跟刑法的規範範圍欸這裡就直接寫說這筆錢就是要給立法委員這所有權是歸屬立法委員的耶哇我看了之後我真的是哇欸那這個到底是要給助理的錢還是給立法委員的錢啊"},{"start":9634.11,"end":9661.363,"text":"假設是後者就是要給立法委員自己的錢那大院其實可以修個法就是增加我們立法委員的薪資就好了嘛不用這麼迂迴啊那假設是要給助理的錢的話那為什麼修正理由要這樣寫這裡面會涉及到一個根本的問題假設這筆錢就是要給助理的助理費用撥到立法委員的口袋裡面去立法委員請了助理"},{"start":9663.106,"end":9681.015,"text":"沒有付那麼多錢那剩餘的款項要不要繳回我就問一個問題要不要繳回不繳回那就是立法委員自己的口袋裡面的費用那不就自肥嗎那假如要繳回你沒有繳回你隨便亂報這樣有沒有犯罪假如要繳回就定性成是助理費"},{"start":9689.312,"end":9715.22,"text":"本來就要給助理的費用那你沒有繳回你放到自己口袋裡面他無論如何他還是會構成犯罪嘛那只是在我看來只是說你免檢拒核銷只是增加檢察官的偵查成本而已啊那頂多就是偵查的時候再把那些助理來問說到底有沒有領那麼多錢就這樣子而已啊這個是定性上面其實非常混亂喔所以有點搞不太清楚"},{"start":9717.728,"end":9739.206,"text":"到底是自肥還是說其實你還是要繳回那你不繳 你要 因繳回你又不繳回那這會變成什麼這還是會構成犯罪啊那回過頭來你看喔假如我們就看昨天高皇案那個判決欸我就 我看了高院的新聞稿我是覺得有點有趣啦齁最後法院的判決是認為"},{"start":9742.315,"end":9760.163,"text":"高鴻安的那一筆助理費用其實應該是屬於他的薪資實質補貼也就是應該就是歸屬於高鴻安的大概是跟我們修正理由差不多所以後來判他 不是判他公務員榨取財務罪也不是按照原審判他什麼利用職務榨取財務罪 不是是判他使公務員登宅不實 為什麼 因為你"},{"start":9762.293,"end":9782.814,"text":"給的比較少 可是你報的比較多所以他認為這個部分是使公務員登載不實可是請各位不要忘記喔使公務員登載不實罪裡面有一個非常重要的一個要件就是說你雖然是使的公務員登載了不實客觀上面有一個使公務員登載不實的行為但是他必須要足深損害於公眾或他人"},{"start":9784.844,"end":9814.05,"text":"那假如你認為說這筆錢就應該歸屬高鴻安或是像我們立法委我們這個修法提案這個理由那說實在的我放到自己口袋裡面我只是少報我只是亂報而已啊 亂寫啊亂寫雖然客觀上面有使公務員登載不實的客觀行為但是你不能說他足身損害於公眾或他人啊因為那筆錢就是你的嘛你只愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫就好啦所以喔 這個我是覺得這個法律定性非常不明確"},{"start":9816.176,"end":9839.173,"text":"這點其實是我覺得司法機關當然沒辦法接受那更不用講其實向來的司法實務其實在定性上面都否定說這筆錢其實是屬於立法委員自己的薪資實質補貼也排斥所謂的大水庫理論那更不用講就如同剛剛前面幾位專家學者都有提到這會造成以下幾個問題第一個會計制度跟預算執行的嚴重的衝擊"},{"start":9842.365,"end":9857.995,"text":"這個最主要的原因就是說因為你改由民意代表統籌運用而且免減拒合交你不用單拒了所以這個第一個你違反公帑用途明確的原則這不就是等同把這筆錢列入民意代表的個人私庫嗎"},{"start":9859.176,"end":9860.716,"text":"而且會導致會會導致會會導致會會導致會會導致會導致會導致會導致會導致會導致會導致會導致會導致會導致會導致會導致會導致會導致會導致會導致"},{"start":9887.472,"end":9909.538,"text":"那至於像是這個法律定性就有變等於是立法委員變相加薪的這個疑慮這個剛才我說過了另外還有像是這個那接下來繳收免減拒核銷那剛才大家是說沒法保障助理對不對可是我想到一個問題是那助理怎麼報稅啊助理好像也不用報所得稅了吧是不是"},{"start":9910.735,"end":9932.464,"text":"因為免減拒嘛我發錢我就拿個現金給他那我也不用減付任何單據那助理也不用報所以助理來講好像是好事情開玩笑的可是事實上是因為你免減拒的關係所以會導致譬如說你要為助理提撥勞健保 勞稅基金從源頭上面就根本失去了控制"},{"start":9935.586,"end":9949.031,"text":"所以會導致勞動權益的保障空洞化所以基於以上理由我在這裡的看法是我認為這個提案是完全不可裁請大院再整密的思考 謝謝好 謝謝紀律師接下來我們再請顏榮教授發言"},{"start":9971.153,"end":9987.654,"text":"主席在場的先進還有所有立法院的工作人員大家好我是台北大學顏榮那我的專業是刑事訴訟法所以針對這個議題我等一下會稍微從程序面的觀點來談一下我對這個議題的想法那首先就是昨天高虹安女士非常這個"},{"start":9989.376,"end":10012.524,"text":"著名的判決出現了那也引起大家諸多討論我不知道這是對司法信賴度的提升還是下降提升面可能是各黨各派的人都會遭到有利或不利的判決好像不錯但是司法信賴度的下降是指這麼奇特這麼奇怪的判決這個說裡有很多問題的判決也會在我們的高等法院出現所以這對於一個曾經的實務工作者我大概十年前當過律師"},{"start":10013.644,"end":10035.474,"text":"然後到現在在台北大學教授行事諮問法的我而言 這個是一個很值得討論的社會現象那我們近代最高法院的表態那從這個判決也可以看得出來這個立院的助理的薪資在定性上會引起非常多的不同的解釋它引起的層面很廣包含像先前的幾位絕對專家甚至有討論到免稅的問題免稅加薪又免稅這個剛剛讓我很震驚"},{"start":10042.177,"end":10069.918,"text":"那也涉及到這個在場很多委員很多先進都很關心的貪污稅條例以及刑法的使用所以其實誠如剛剛的這個紀律師所說的我們在定性上是一個必須要去面對的問題那這個定性的問題當然會有不同意見這個法律上有不同的解釋不同意見很正常但是我們回歸最原始的目的這個錢是國家的錢喔是在座大家繳稅"},{"start":10071.619,"end":10089.607,"text":"全民繳稅然後拿出來的錢他的目的是什麼是讓立法委員在行使立法權的時候有助理有專業的助理來幫他們尋找外國法來尋找配套措施所以這個錢的目的就是要讓"},{"start":10090.768,"end":10104.744,"text":"立委可以來聘助理來輔助他的立院的職權行使他不是要幫立委加薪吧如果是要幫立委加薪那陳紀律師所說我們不用討論這個法我們直接"},{"start":10105.885,"end":10134.658,"text":"把它納入立委薪水就可以那也不要再去說這個外界罵自肥因為這就是自肥啊如果不是不是立委的薪水這個是要給助理的那我們就要把這筆錢在制度上可以讓助理得到保障可以讓助理實質的來使用而不是透過迂迴的先進入委員的薪資當中再由委員不負擔據願意使用"},{"start":10135.638,"end":10149.734,"text":"在我的理解這是一個很脫法行為的立法模式我們在司法實務上有一種專法律漏洞就是法律定則再怎麼好就還是有些人很厲害我們這個實務名叫脫法行為它包裝得很好如果我們今天"},{"start":10150.475,"end":10177.084,"text":"不是說這是委員的薪水這是要給助理的費用因為助理是我們工作中不可或缺的一環因為助理是某些委員所說的是我們的家人是我們的朋友 我們重要的夥伴如果你承認這件事情的話那我們要把這筆錢用合法 用程序 規格高的方式進入立委的助理的口袋裡面不要讓他經過一個曲折的過程"},{"start":10178.504,"end":10194.838,"text":"這個曲折過程除了對助理的實質領到的薪水是產生損害之外他對助理有任何好處嗎如果有 我想今天新聞不會鬧這麼大因為對於低薪的人來說領到他的工作所得的薪資這個在我們這一"},{"start":10195.538,"end":10221.689,"text":"近50年來不管是勞動基準法或是各者程序面的保障我們是越拉越高怎麼會反而走回頭路讓它變成一個低度保障呢這個低度保障換來是什麼換來是可能連動了攤位之罪的除罪的話等一下我們後面一分鐘提那個問題是另外刑法上來解決而不是去動到這個錢跟制度的根本這個錢就是要給助理的啊這件事情不能夠被"},{"start":10222.429,"end":10249.097,"text":"變更 如果大家承認這個錢就是要給助理的話當然如果說這個是要給立委加薪那我們就不用這麼複雜了啦我想今天這個公聽會不用開這麼久那麼複雜然後這個召委還這麼辛苦來舉行這麼有意義的公聽會就不用了所以如果我們今天討論的是怎麼樣去健全助理的薪資的話首先要如何建立一個制度讓這筆錢直接進入助理的口袋裡面這才是我們將來或是我們現在改革的方向"},{"start":10249.697,"end":10277.113,"text":"而不是讓他走一個迂迴的路徑我覺得他脫髮的行為我們這個立法自己做了一個脫髮的行為把明明要給助理的錢先放到立委的口袋裡面再讓立委去統合運用這個第一個部分我覺得定性上非常重要它就是一個國家的預算不要忘記這是國家的錢喔不是私人企業的錢喔它的程序保障要拉高這是理所當然的吧這是我們大家的錢這是我第一個要強調的部分"},{"start":10278.516,"end":10304.219,"text":"再來是第二個部分我要談的是程序的保障就是說程序的重要性剛剛其實齊薇先進都有提到我們有核銷我們為什麼在會計制度上面有人事費 有業務費我們這個不好意思其實我們身為國立大學的教師我在刑法上其實我不是刑法上的公務員我沒有兼任任何的行政職"},{"start":10304.98,"end":10321.089,"text":"但是我也這個要回應剛剛林律師的問題我不是刑法上的公務員我沒有公務員我現在犯法我現在是用了侵佔罪我不是用貪污之罪條例但是我在國科會的核銷上面"},{"start":10321.989,"end":10342.49,"text":"我們都要附單據我們都要去說明我們的使用目的甚至國科會最去年開始還簽名他說我們的助理一個月薪資不得低於六千塊我這個國科會計畫助理一個月大概領八千到一萬我整個package一年的總額大概五十萬到七十萬如果我有申請到"},{"start":10343.271,"end":10356.257,"text":"我們連這麼樣的金額遠低於立法院的助理費用的這個錢在國立大學老師的身上我都要每一筆單據都要核銷我的助理費就是助理費"},{"start":10357.816,"end":10375.543,"text":"我們不可能沒有核銷單據任意讓我使用如果這個法案過的話那我也很想爭取啊國歌會的那個50萬到70萬應該一開始就進我口袋啊讓我全權運用嘛而且我還不用附單據啊我的研究也需要彈性使用啊"},{"start":10376.59,"end":10403.762,"text":"全部給我 我已經想好了就是我年初拿到70萬我就all in0878005600919然後我的助理的薪水就是看配息我們就簽一個條約就是助理費看配息你就保祐今年的index市場好一點你就拿多一點我完全拿那個本金我還可以給助理然後沒事我可以請他吃個飯說我是什麼一日為師 終生為父 為母那我帶他入小孩我們可以這樣操作嗎"},{"start":10405.444,"end":10422.117,"text":"我們連這麼金額低的研究助理研究案的費用都需要檢核單據為什麼因為那是國科會給我的錢啊那個是政府給我的錢所以要確保我不能夠用在研究的目的以外"},{"start":10423.154,"end":10443.791,"text":"好 所以回來這個議題我們今天要改的是什麼過去其實像是剛剛智傑老師還有我們這個翁委員都是大學教授其實我們在十年前都知道有大學的這一個教授的因為暴漲的事情而產生的刑事案件那個案件裡面我當時還是律師我是第一線的陪偵的律師我看到了很多"},{"start":10445.272,"end":10461.993,"text":"報帳帳的困境講一個例子那時候有個案件的一個小內容是因為不能核銷電風扇因為主計不能理解電風扇跟你的研究有什麼關係老師無辜話說我們做理工的那個電腦很熱我們要降溫啊我們要電風扇去吹可是主計不能理解"},{"start":10462.634,"end":10480.559,"text":"所以今天如果立委在核銷上面在業務費在各項使用上面有困難那應該是要在區分人事費的前提之下在業務費的範圍內去符合立委真的他們工作需求上面所應該要用的花費"},{"start":10481.719,"end":10497.607,"text":"這才是根本之道去解決這個合交的問題而不是去動到最根本的助理費這個部分我覺得這個有點本末倒置然後我還剩下一分鐘二十秒最後面提兩個就是這個刑事法的部分第一個"},{"start":10498.687,"end":10515.934,"text":"不管是核銷制度或者是我們在利用核銷或是先前的各種程序其實是讓我們大家人民可以來監督這一項費用它是不是合於公用使用如果都不用任何的核銷都不用任何的單據這沒有人來監督啊"},{"start":10517.135,"end":10538.332,"text":"這個連立法理由說的這個陳委員的立法理由說的這個選民負政治責任請問選民根本就不知道你錢怎麼用他怎麼樣去判斷你有沒有亂用啊怎麼負政治責任啊你連公開連最基本的公開都沒有耶這連政治責任都負不了所以要強調一下這個核銷制度或是任何程序保障它其實有強力的監督作用"},{"start":10538.892,"end":10553.435,"text":"包含先前先進也有提到的助理的資格他可以透過聘用他可以透過這些核交程序來檢視他的資格他有沒有危害國安的問題這個是這個程序所不可欠缺是非常重要的"},{"start":10554.176,"end":10566.105,"text":"最後是這個修法滋事體大然後在比較法的部分其實日本的國會助理國會秘書都是公務員但是他們的國會議員去侵占他們的或是騙用他們當人頭來領這個錢他其實犯的是詐欺罪"},{"start":10570.248,"end":10586.159,"text":"所以這個刑事法跟好抱歉30秒結束這個刑事法跟我們現在32條的連動它必然有它的關係但是如果今天貪污職業條例大家認為不合時宜這個1960年代開始到1990年代修的貪污職業條例不適合於"},{"start":10586.979,"end":10603.487,"text":"應該去通盤檢討 探討這些條例而不是去動到助理費這件根本的事情我覺得這次修法有一些本末倒置那也希望我們的修法能夠有更多的公聽會 再次感謝昭緯開這次公聽會讓大家有一些意見發表跟交換的機會好 謝謝謝謝顏老師接下來我們請國發大學李瑞典教授發言"},{"start":10625.886,"end":10639.357,"text":"主席在場關心本次公聽會的先進朋友大家好我是李瑞典很榮幸今天受邀就中央及地方民意代表聘用助理制度提出我一些觀察和建議"},{"start":10642.943,"end":10660.909,"text":"剛才我看到有委員找了一個匿名的助理然後再拍了一段影片再放給大家聽那裡面的內容如此針對性的對在野黨的批判跟法案的批判這樣子"},{"start":10661.969,"end":10685.898,"text":"然後告訴大家說這是助理的心聲很可惜這樣以偏概全的這種說法讓今天這麼有意義的公聽會充滿了非理性的討論這是我很遺憾的我曾經當任過助理我助理我驕傲我完全不同意剛才那位匿名的助理他的說法"},{"start":10689.5,"end":10715.481,"text":"好 我相信我待會的報告可以把這一次這麼有意義的公聽會把它拉回來比較有理性的討論據我了解這次公聽會主要是委員提案有關於國會助理的修法那本屆目前有三個版本那整個公聽會的主題設定了國會和地方民代的助理制度的討論"},{"start":10717.345,"end":10742.33,"text":"對於本次召開公聽會議題的設計不但只談國會助理而且談到了地方民意代表的助理這麼能夠全面性的兼顧到助理的問題一併來提出我想展現出立法院身為國會殿堂的高度跟思維本人在此表達我由衷的敬佩助理的制度"},{"start":10743.781,"end":10771.069,"text":"牽涉到層面非常的廣包含勞動關係 人事管理問證專業和印鑽的使用但是今天我的報告會依照簡報的順序聚焦在一個核心的議題也就是助理在現行制度下為什麼會反覆大量的捲入刑事責任特別是貪污罪犯條例的問題首先請各位看簡報我們透過司法院裁判書類系統輸入名義代表其中大概有刑事案件有5220件"},{"start":10774.059,"end":10786.901,"text":"然後我再用助理這個關鍵字再檢索也有高達1306件那剛才也有委員也有一些學者他提到說大概有100多件還在法院審理當中那昨天新聞有報大概還有200多件"},{"start":10787.984,"end":10814.626,"text":"如果今天是一個單一個案我們可以說是個人操守或者是行為偏差但同樣類型的案件反覆的出現而且涉及到這麼多助理跟民意代表的時候這已經不是個案這顯示了制度本身存在一種結構性的風險我想這樣的現象在我們國內並不是第一次出現像以前有很多的學者專家所提到的國務紀要費首長特別費後來教授研究費不時的核銷還有"},{"start":10816.147,"end":10828.366,"text":"大家沒提到的公立醫院醫師開立不時的巴士量表我想這些都是在制度設計不合理的情況之下導致大量的人員被刑事追訴最後國家選擇回歸來修法調整制度"},{"start":10831.109,"end":10857.111,"text":"昨天媒體有報導多年來因為公費助理有200多筆昨天我們也剛剛看到了二審宣判的高雄安的案件和他助理涉犯貪污案我想這就是其中的一件但是我們現在似乎可以暫時的評價它是偽造文書 不是貪污案助理會出現這麼多的爭議案件所以我們今天在這裡就助理制度的問題"},{"start":10858.598,"end":10874.358,"text":"我們應該用同樣的高度來看待而不是只是停留在道德譴責或是個案的究責而已接下來我要進入本次報告的核心問題也就是我簡報裡面所提到的本來是王子犯罪"},{"start":10876.138,"end":10899.583,"text":"以庶民同罪他是談公平性的問題但是我們現在變成王子犯罪庶民與其同罪我想這個同罪還是一個重罪不是輕罪顯然他存在一種不公平性我想助理在法律上並不是公務員這一點在立法院組織法跟所謂的地方民意代表費用支給補助條例裡面都非常清楚但是"},{"start":10900.782,"end":10925.051,"text":"因為貪污罪條例第三條規定非公務員只要和公務員共犯就一體適用貪污罪條例結果是什麼結果就是助理拿不到公務員的保障卻要承擔公務員最嚴厲的刑事責任更嚴重的是助理在實務上面其實對民意代表有高度的依存關係和高度的服從義務助理的聘用解聘工作內容幾乎完全取決於民意代表"},{"start":10925.911,"end":10943.372,"text":"他的意志但是在司法審查上面我們卻看不到這樣的高度服從關係有任何責任在評價上面的差異我想這就是制度不公平的來源接下來我要簡要的說明助理在法律上面的整個定位"},{"start":10945.61,"end":10973.203,"text":"國會助理從立法院組織法的立法理由可以清楚看到設立公費助理的目的就是為了提升立法委員的問政能力助理由委員聘用跟委員同進退適用勞基法這一點我想歷次的修法都沒有改變也因為如此助理在限時當中對於委員形成高度的依附關係理論上面雖然有勞基法的保障但實務上面委員只要認為助理沒有辦法配合或是沒有辦法提升問政能力就有可能解聘助理"},{"start":10973.863,"end":11001.162,"text":"然後再來就是地方民意代表的助理依照補助條例的修法歷程其實越來越強調彈性跟補助性質甚至於在最新的修法當中已經刪除了公費兩個字明確的指出議員和助理是僱傭關係但問題是這次的刪除公費這兩個字以後這筆錢的法律性質到底是公款還是已經轉為由民意代表統籌運用的補助款我想在刑事責任上面實務上面還是很模糊的"},{"start":11003.237,"end":11020.625,"text":"接下來我們要談助理費和相關費用的性質在實務上面案件大概可以分成兩類第一類是公款公用第二類是公款私用什麼叫公款公用我想指的是帳目不實但實際上仍然用於助理或者是問證的相關支出"},{"start":11021.806,"end":11050.079,"text":"那對於這一類的案件實務上跟學說存在有很大的分歧一派認為只要虛報就構成貪污罪另外一派則認為既然沒有納入私人的口袋就因為欠缺為自己不法所有的範疑不應該用貪污罪來論相對的公款私用也就是將補助款放到自己的口袋裡面那實務跟學界幾乎沒有什麼爭議認為構成貪污但是即便如此"},{"start":11051.158,"end":11076.41,"text":"很多的學者仍然提醒比如說剛才也有一些學者特別提到貪污罪條例是自亂適用重點的產物是不是應該在今天的民主法治國家繼續無限擴張的適用真的值得大家討論接下來我們簡單的看一下國外的有關於助理的制度我們從日本 美國 英國 德國到韓國可以發現有幾個共同的特點第一個 助理都是由議員"},{"start":11077.854,"end":11093.596,"text":"來聘用第二個幾乎所有的國家都禁止聘用親屬第三個對助理經費和聘用的情形會有資訊公開和獨立的審查機制我想這是一種用制度透明去取代巡視高壓的模式非常值得參考"},{"start":11095.738,"end":11115.547,"text":"最後我們來談一談未來的改革方向第一 助理不應該一體適用貪污罪條例的重刑在修法之前如果這次修法能夠通過或是在貪污罪條例能夠修法至少在司法實務上面的職務關聯性的認定上面司法應該採取比較低的審查密度"},{"start":11116.345,"end":11142.737,"text":"第二個 我們應該建立助理和經費使用的接入原則用透明來取代刑法讓選民來評價民意代表第三 我們要保留多元彈性的聘用方式譬如說專案型的譬如說日新型的助理第四 我們要明確規範消極資格禁止聘用親屬這樣在修法的路徑上面不論是修正立法院"},{"start":11144.362,"end":11158.768,"text":"組織法或者自制定專法或者是調整貪污自衛條例關鍵不在於條文的形式而在於是不是能夠真正的解決助理這種制度性的入罪入什麼罪貪污自衛條例這種重罪的問題"},{"start":11160.765,"end":11180.96,"text":"最後我大概用大概一分鐘的時間簡要說明目前立法院有三位立法委員提出不同的版本然後提出我個人的觀察有關於賴若文委員提到的修法方向只有立法院組織法第32條做一個方向性的修正強調公費助理制度應該法制化"},{"start":11181.801,"end":11196.222,"text":"但是他交由立法行政考試三院來會商因為這個版本並沒有具體的處理助理的法律定位經費性質或者是刑事責任的問題對目前助理大量入罪的結構性風險我的回應仍然有限"},{"start":11197.384,"end":11210.868,"text":"第二個是有關於許智學委員提出的立法院公費助理任用法草案我看剛剛有一些大律師一直在推崇這樣的草案這個專法是來做全面性的規範然後強調分級給新資訊公開跟勞動保障"},{"start":11214.389,"end":11229.569,"text":"我想在制度的完整性上面確實有他參考的價值但是從刑事法的角度來看他完全沒有正面去處理貪污罪條例第三條所造成的結構性失衡也就是助理他不是公務員卻承擔了公務員的貪污重罪"},{"start":11230.515,"end":11246.701,"text":"最後有關於陳玉珍委員提出的補助費用由立法院撥以立法委員統籌運用的修法方向我想這個設計才是真正的切中問題的核心有助於從源頭來降低助理因為帳戶的形式而入罪風險但是因為搭配了免"},{"start":11247.781,"end":11264.674,"text":"簡句合消的文字社會對於監督不足一律就會存在因此比較理想的方式是保留統籌運用同時以支出 聘用必須公開由全民監督的方式來期待形勢高壓總結來說不論是哪一種修法我認為關鍵不在於條文的多寡而是在於"},{"start":11265.655,"end":11283.731,"text":"能夠真正避免一個制度不斷地製造刑事被告如果可以用透明合理跟比例原則來取代原例的刑法個人認為會比較保障助理的權益落實民意代表的職責以及維護我們的民主法制以上報告我有提供12頁的比較完整的書面給大家參考 謝謝各位指教好 謝謝李瑞典教授那接下來我們請羅川賢教授發言"},{"start":11304.651,"end":11326.84,"text":"主席 各位來賓還有我們各位教授我剛剛聽到很多的大律師也好或者是委員來發言的委員還有老師 很多老師教授也有提到不過我看起來"},{"start":11328.24,"end":11350.138,"text":"他們都缺乏一個論述就是說這一次的爭議這個爭議要從另外一個角度來看因為這個是國會自治的問題我們公會處理是立法院的行使主權的一個延伸它是個國會自治的這個一點沒有人談到因為我以前在立法院服務過所以我有寫過這個著作因為"},{"start":11352.849,"end":11376.128,"text":"國會是民意機關它跟行政前立法局的性質完全不同它是民意機關組成的所以它的適用都是要國會駐駐的原則下大法官已經好多次的解釋都是尊重國會駐駐連蘇法官 蘇院大法官都要尊重國會駐駐因為它是國會的內部事項由國會的議員跟這黨派的協商等等做了駐駐的決定"},{"start":11377.529,"end":11400.231,"text":"不受修法前 還有行政起來干涉所以我們在行政程序法訂定的時候也 制定的時候也是一樣在第三條就把那個民意機關全部排除使用我們是機關被排除的我們是另外一另類的 另類的思考那今天的爭議呢另外也有一個角度說我們要從立法演繹 因為有爭議嘛所以要從立法演繹 我們"},{"start":11401.132,"end":11426.929,"text":"我們為什麼要公報書要寫公報為什麼要很多提案要寫這個立法說明這個就是探求它的立法原理跟它的歷史研究我們解釋 行政起來解釋 司法解釋都有歷史解釋法嘛就是立法原格為什麼立法原格要登出來那麼這個東西探求到根源立法原理的時候就知道這個是一個補貼的問題"},{"start":11430.738,"end":11451.811,"text":"幾年前那個吳承典委員金門吉的吳承典他被判了 第一審被判12年他夫妻被判12年第二審 他在這個判完以後他們法治兵基金會曾經找我們去我跟那個前人事處長黃台生黃台生教授我們兩個都被應邀去"},{"start":11452.671,"end":11481.407,"text":"就這個議題 這個司法案的議題提出一些看法那我們兩個都是同聲說這個是一個助理會的來源他的立法的來源根本就起源於補貼 補助 補助款他是原來就是補助款 研究補助款所以他的立法原理當初立法者的原理就是補助款是一個正義的性質當然這個手續要怎麼辦公平公正公開這個是我們法治要去解決"},{"start":11482.347,"end":11492.553,"text":"不能用法律或命令去解決這個內部的依法的問題其實我們就是要從這個後來我們這個座談會法治兵基金的座談會開完以後後來發現"},{"start":11495.714,"end":11520.772,"text":"可能會有一點效果吳承典那個以前前委員他就被第二審判無罪跟這一次的高鴻安以前的老委員的情況是一樣的所以被這個爭議就是說假如從國會資助的事項去看可能被判無罪可能你從行政人士或其他角度去看是有罪的所以這個是因為性質不同不要把它混在一起講剛剛也有很多委員提到說那個"},{"start":11523.55,"end":11548.155,"text":"那個法治局長在寫研究報告有發表過我沒有看過不過我是說法治局長本來就是應該做這個工作的我們組組法明定法案的執行案就是由法治局提供的不管是主動的一個爭議問題主動提供或者應委員黨團的要求提出報告這是合理的他們從"},{"start":11550.285,"end":11569.091,"text":"世界的各國的比較還有我們他們才知道立法院的運作包括國會自治的事項去發展一個報告出來這個是才給國會參考是一個很有價值我真的有在前頭委員對他指責是不合理的因為今天我就說第一個我跳過那個"},{"start":11570.693,"end":11588.653,"text":"第一個案子說公法這個關係立法公衛助理的法律關係我第一個認為立法案跟這個法律關係我們有公法 司法並存的我舉例來講那個健保署健保署跟人民之間是公法關係但是他跟那個"},{"start":11589.744,"end":11616.427,"text":"跟那個醫術機構之間是一個公法企業關係老百姓到醫院遵守去看那個是司法關係這個我們的關係是多重的一定不要把它單一想說這個是一個公務員或什麼這個是不對的我以前在立法院服務的時候我第一次在省政府機構服務我被考上省政府公會留學"},{"start":11617.428,"end":11641.681,"text":"第二度在立法院獲得 我也被派也被考上人事總署辦的專題研究我也到英國倫敦政經學院我第一次是到杜蘭大學法律系這個兩次的研究 兩次的專題研究裡面我們都發現我們也有公法關係 這個關係是存在的我們跟學校之間 大學是我自己去申請那個是司法關係"},{"start":11642.882,"end":11667.118,"text":"申請到以後 我那個註冊我那個選科選完以後那個繳多少錢像杜蘭大學是很貴的學校 那是我繳不起的杜蘭大學錢哪裡領到 像我們代表處領我是國家工會生 工會生就代表處領英國就英國代表 我在政經學院讀的時候研究這個國會諸多的時候 也是他們的這個是一個企業關係 數碼企業關係"},{"start":11669.319,"end":11677.847,"text":"我們跟國家關係 我們是公務員嘛當然是公務法關係所以我們要這個法律定位以後才可以分析這個案子那麼第一個我認為第一個我認為我們這個立法案跟這個"},{"start":11690.524,"end":11716.118,"text":"立法院跟這個委員之間因為它補助嘛 這個有正義性質嘛所以補助那個是一個補助契約當然這個契約不是說一定要定那個甲方乙方那個啦現在最高法案的解釋呢這個契約主要你有登記 有書信來往有那個文書來往就是像我以前讀的公衛學校我們去註冊 那就是契約關係成立所以那一段是公法契約"},{"start":11717.159,"end":11728.624,"text":"那麼因為它的第二段第二個就是說我們是書法關係那個委員跟公衛助理之間是書法關係那為什麼是書法關係呢因為它是"},{"start":11730.199,"end":11750.48,"text":"他是這個民法的雇傭企業雇傭企業我們知道我們勞動部我也在勞動部當委員勞動部經常在講說是不是勞工有沒有成立 雇傭有沒有成立它是人格上 他們解釋是人格上 經濟上 組織上的從屬性就是雇傭關係成立所以公衛助理跟委員之間是一個"},{"start":11751.421,"end":11764.69,"text":"這完全是成立的那這是雇佣關係那麼這個跟委員同進退法律規定醫療計畫來辦理相關事情這個是沒問題那麼第三個就是我們說這個立法委員跟這個"},{"start":11767.297,"end":11786.431,"text":"助理跟立法案之間是一個營造的利用關係跟事實行為營造為什麼呢 那個立法案為了公用的設備我們的助理當然可以使用依照立法案的內規來使用它的設備包括它裡面的有什麼福利等等 包括福利社等等"},{"start":11787.091,"end":11809.945,"text":"那他這個錢的問題 薪資的問題每個業隊繪製那個助理的帳號裡面這個是一個事實關係這個是我們行政法裡面的事實行為它是發生了事實效果它是沒有直接對外發生法律的效果所以工會助理角不服對這個營造利用關係事實行為不服"},{"start":11810.405,"end":11822.203,"text":"他就只有提及行政訴訟裡面的一般幾乎訴訟就不是用數位那條路那我們政府機關編列這個預算跟其他"},{"start":11826.874,"end":11851.147,"text":"在這個助理會的費用性質我第一個認為這個研究會是一個補貼但是這個補貼是因為他有有手續要辦所以他不是立法委員的薪資的範圍那不是第二個他第二點他要編預算這個預算要執行我也當過行政官預算執行是一個撤出性的法律他要執行那這個"},{"start":11853.018,"end":11881.448,"text":"我們這個最後來講那個修法因為這次有看見有好幾個委員有提到那個修法的提案我們認為那個那個習委員提的是公會立法院公會治理訓斷我是認為這個有出現法治調和問題他沒有說明說為什麼我這個要立新法不修修法不修現行法那麼你要說為什麼你是現行法是不是有什麼"},{"start":11882.619,"end":11908.782,"text":"不可用的地方有問題有規範問題你才會定第二個他的名稱裡面用這個公會助理任用法我因為我有研究立法技術我已經在部會當這個委員有三十多年的歷史那這個名稱要名譜相識但是他這個委員裡面的提案很多說聘用啦 聘用孤單類 聘期等等都是用一種勞基法的用意所以這一點不應該用使用法用這個任用法"},{"start":11911.065,"end":11924.766,"text":"最後陳立春委員的提案我覺得他也要說明說為什麼現行法功能不佳再來他要明定我建議把工會助理的工作範圍要把它明定他要做什麼事"},{"start":11925.447,"end":11951.296,"text":"不是說書記也公衛助理那如果我們這個司法助理這個公衛助理的性質剛剛我們談過了我們也不再談就是要取得明確性為了權力行使公正化確保法律姿勢的安定還有避免法律漏洞我覺得要修但是修不能把那個現在把那個NL確定的時候幾年到幾年現在把它改成若干年反而不確定這個我覺得不太好那以上因為我時間的關係我報告到這裡謝謝 請主教 謝謝"},{"start":11955.706,"end":11963.178,"text":"好 謝謝羅教授的發言那最後一位我們請中華人權協會高斯柏理事長也是前立委高委員請發言"},{"start":11975.553,"end":11998.948,"text":"主席翁委員我們在場的學者專家還有立法院的同仁各位媒體的好朋友今天這個我之前有點事報到比較晚所以就最後一個講但是我認為這個問題非常的重要尤其是今天我是以這個中華人權協會理事長的身份來這邊發言"},{"start":12001.409,"end":12010.617,"text":"我們作為一個非常長期關注貪污治罪條例相關的案件"},{"start":12012.452,"end":12035.523,"text":"的個案有好幾個都有來我們中華人權協會進行澄清我們也幫助過不少相關的個案作為一個這樣的NGO我今天就是覺得這個議題非常的重要所以最後一個發言我還是要非常簡要但是完整的能夠論述一下"},{"start":12036.723,"end":12050.331,"text":"我想我就分四個點非常簡要來報告我們認為我們作為關切人權法制的NGO我們認為第一點立法委員的助理費"},{"start":12057.017,"end":12083.271,"text":"是这个补助的费用的性质这一点从民国74年到现在就已经建筑与立法院的各种文书已经确立所以对于相关的最近社会上针对好几个法案版本的争议我们基本上提出来我们认为一定要公款公用但是只要公款公用"},{"start":12084.403,"end":12106.116,"text":"就絕對沒有刑罰的問題尤其不應該令人無辜的背上貪污的惡名那我們這邊要非常清楚的說明我們對於貪污自罪條例我們非常有意見有意見的原因是因為它存在非常多的法律陷阱"},{"start":12107.774,"end":12130.748,"text":"說它是一個惡法 義不為過最近有兩個案子我們人權協會都關心而且都為它出力發聲首先提醒大家最近的一個案子叫電鍋案電鍋案那個案子我還寫過文章在聯合報大家有興趣可以參閱"},{"start":12132.469,"end":12157.927,"text":"另外一個案子就是前幾年大家如果還記得的話有一位姓韓的少將因為加菜金的關係他就是加菜金四千多塊去請了軍眷大家一同用餐結果到最後一樣貪污治罪條例伺候到最後他被判了四年多我們還陪他去上了國家人權委員會到最後是勞動蔡英文總統特赦他"},{"start":12160.825,"end":12175.038,"text":"所以我們首先要跟大家提出來貪污治罪條例是一個非常有問題的法律不但它的刑度是只要一上貪污治罪條例就是重刑"},{"start":12176.4,"end":12199.278,"text":"而且它造成非常多的法侵群眾的狀況更嚴重的 如果你就社會的角度它很容易讓一個公眾人物一下子變成涉死涉死這兩個字大家聽得懂嗎因為只要你被這個條例所起訴先不要管有罪無罪就像昨天的那一起重大案件一樣你就已經是被認定是貪污的惡名"},{"start":12201.18,"end":12206.188,"text":"貪污自費條例其實在司法界大家都非常知道法官檢察官都非常清楚"},{"start":12207.199,"end":12231.724,"text":"它的這個構成要件非常容易入人於罪所以他們對於凡是涉及貪污職業條例很多都是要求證據要有實足實的證據他們才會去使用那個條例但是這個仍然沒有辦法挽救這個法律基本上有非常多的法律陷阱說它是惡法也不為過大家看看電鍋案就知道了捐一個這個被廢棄的電鍋價值32塊"},{"start":12236.206,"end":12249.186,"text":"就我們社會上的倫理道德來講大家都認為這是做好人做好事的一件事情結果到最後法官只能用盡洪荒之力去幫這位黃姓的清潔隊員"},{"start":12251.028,"end":12265.21,"text":"幫他想辦法減刑再減刑那到最後還是得判得判他有罪緩刑我想今天這個黃姓青年隊員當然大家站在現實的立場民不與官鬥 民不與法鬥啦所以到最後如果"},{"start":12266.462,"end":12293.5,"text":"他不用真的去關也許他就算了但是如果一個真的是自己的名聲是第二生命這樣的一個情況如果是這樣的情況你想想看這個人最重要的一件事情是他要問一件事情我做這個倫理道德值得稱讚的事情到最後被認為有罪那你們這個社會跟法治到底要認為我是有罪還是無罪"},{"start":12295.143,"end":12308.505,"text":"所以貪污治罪條例已經太容易變成是講一句很直白的話已經太容易變成是政治攻防的工具所以我們第一點首先就要指出貪污治罪條例如果"},{"start":12309.898,"end":12337.935,"text":"在這個我們現在談助理費這樣的一個場剛好來做全盤的檢討貪污智慧條例如果繼續在我們這個社會是發揮這樣的作用我們要跟大家立法院的各位委員這個建議這完全是惡法無疑所以必須要做全盤的檢討那第二點我們也先跟大家報告公款公用這個原則之下應該要顧及立法委員是"},{"start":12339.144,"end":12358.413,"text":"探尋民意 代表民意的代議士所以對於是否公款公用我們建議是要做合目的性的一個合理的解釋比方說 立法委員上政論節目是不是可以當作是他在民主過程裡面的一個重要的一個部分"},{"start":12359.232,"end":12375.029,"text":"那這樣的話上政論節目的裝髮費到底算不算是可以算是公用好 立法委員常常要去進行國會外交那我們也不能假設每個立法委員都有一套高級西裝請問一下他們如果出國訪問要自辦西裝那請問一下"},{"start":12379.434,"end":12399.554,"text":"如果這樣的情況到底算不算是公還公用但是我們認為的一個底線是絕對不能把會計科目它能不能認列當成是犯罪行為的要件也就是說會計上能不能認列它導致的頂多是行政責任"},{"start":12400.782,"end":12427.473,"text":"要不要對於相關的公款予以返還的問題而不應該把它當作是犯罪的一個行為要件我想這個是第二點我們認為公款公用應該要做非常合目的性的一個解釋所以以立法委員他既然本身是民意代表你說用在他自己身上這個話到底算不算是公用我覺得這個事情要非常仔細的去探究像我剛剛講這兩個例子"},{"start":12428.974,"end":12433.759,"text":"你說它是公用還是用在自己身上也許都可以好 第三點"},{"start":12435.458,"end":12453.776,"text":"昨天司法判決有個金句叫做實質補助彈性雲用所以我們認為對相關的助理費的法案如果要進行相關的改革我們認為應該對於立議法院組織法32條要予以落實這是從74年開始就是這樣32條特別提到"},{"start":12459.807,"end":12488.604,"text":"立法委員的補助包括人事費跟辦公事務費兩類我們基本上認為配合委員不同的問政型態我們的委員有些人是不分區有些人是選區選出來的立法委員他們在政治上的經營很多也不一定是相同的狀態我們是特別建議消除這個法律陷阱把助理費跟事務費"},{"start":12490.293,"end":12508.554,"text":"只要他在科目上是都有這個明文記載我們是基本上建議是不是要容許他們能夠留用但是留用的一個這個把關是他必須要實報實銷也就是如果今天有的立法委員他認為"},{"start":12509.815,"end":12527.59,"text":"他的這個地方的服務處必須要大一點因為每天都有人來這邊做這個選民服務那這個部分應該要給予他相當的彈性最後一點我們贊成對於助理應該要有所保障所以現在的修法我們建議"},{"start":12528.993,"end":12542.863,"text":"助理的類別應該要學習西方的先進國家應該要有合理的一個區分也就是說要有專監職的區分當然我們也同時贊成他們的最低的薪資"},{"start":12544.42,"end":12564.713,"text":"可以由法律來予以保障也就是把助理區分成專職兼職但是同時可以保障他們的最低的一個薪資那讓立法委員可以按照他們不同的工作性質給予這個彈性的一個運用那當然既然有最低薪資的保障有專兼職的區分"},{"start":12565.453,"end":12581.623,"text":"至於他要顧多少人數我們反而認為可以以彈性來處理因為反正你有最低必須要給人家的薪資那一筆錢用是固定的所以到最後你能夠顧多少人就看你自己問政的重點何在我們在這邊僅做以上的建議 謝謝"},{"start":12584.841,"end":12602.308,"text":"好謝謝高理事長的發言那麼現在我們專家學者的發言都已經發言完畢那接著我們就請政府機關代表發言因為今天所提的書面資料有好幾個不同的機關所以我就在這裡我請邀請立法院的副秘書長還有權敘部的"},{"start":12605.82,"end":12624.222,"text":"專委以及勞動部的專委然後待會請到台前來報告那其餘的機關的報告我們就列為書面這個作為記錄好那現在請張副秘書長進行報告謝謝主席各位委員各位學者專家各位女士各位先生大家好"},{"start":12625.303,"end":12652.395,"text":"剛才聆聽了各位學者專家所提供的非常寶貴的意見我想可以作為修法時候的重要參考再次表示感謝的意思以下僅就本次公聽會所涉的議題簡要說明如下立法院公費助理是輔助立法委員專業問政處理行政書務及選民服務的主要成員也是國會運作不可或缺的重要夥伴這是我必須要再一次強調的"},{"start":12653.976,"end":12677.062,"text":"立法院在民國74年經過院會決議增列政府公費補助每位委員助理研究補助費每月新台幣15000元以公費補助立法委員研究之用彌補委員財力的不足那現行依立法院組織法第32條第一項規定立法委員每人得至公費助理8人至14人由委員聘用"},{"start":12677.822,"end":12700.177,"text":"立法院應每年編列每位立法委員一定數額的助理費及其辦公室預算公費助理與委員同進退其勞動基準法所規定的相關費用均由立法院編列預算支應資有關立法院公費助理相關預算均由立法院來編列並依各委員辦公室提供委員清筆"},{"start":12701.358,"end":12717.523,"text":"簽名資 聘書及臨聘異動表等資料代為辦理其所屬公費助理薪資合撥及勞健保加退保等相關的事宜至於今日討論的四個提綱基於行政幕僚的立場尊重"},{"start":12718.303,"end":12734.958,"text":"貴委員會舉辦公聽會以及就相關議案審查結果的意見也會依最終院會決議的內容配合處理相關行政資源工作以使本院職權行使更為順遂最後 誠摯感謝每位國會助理同仁的付出"},{"start":12735.879,"end":12755.784,"text":"默默協助委員收集資料 溝通民意 支撐預示運作讓每一項法案質詢以及民眾的聲音能在國會裡被看見 被理解 被落實讓台灣的民主治理更加成熟 穩健推進以上報告 敬請執照 謝謝好 謝謝張副秘書長的報告那接下來我們再請權敘部的蕭專委"},{"start":12770.764,"end":12791.737,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生各位好針對本次公聽會有關於民意代表聘用公費助理的法律關係跟修法意見等部分提出相關的說明按照現行立法院主持法第32條第33條以及地方民意代表費用支給及村里長失誤補助費"},{"start":12793.778,"end":12813.851,"text":"補助條例第六條的規定這些相關的費用是分別由立法院直轄市議會縣市議會編列預算支應或補助公費助理與各級民意代表是同進退的那它是依照勞動基準法所規定的相關費用也是依照立法院及各議會編列相關預算來支應"},{"start":12817.153,"end":12833.563,"text":"因此有關於中央及地方民意代表聘用助理依照前開規定是由立法院各黨團或議員所聘用的人員因為他們均屬於適用勞動基準法的規定所以雙方所簽訂的契約是屬於司法的勞動契約也就是說"},{"start":12837.085,"end":12862.447,"text":"它並不是依照我們現行考試院主管的聘用人員聘用條例聘用的人員所以也就不使用公務人員相關的法令因此有關於助理費的一個費用以及國會助理的制度呢等相關的一個改革的方向權序部是以及考試院是尊重相關的一個權責機關的意見以及立法院的審議的結果那以上的說明 謝謝"},{"start":12864.926,"end":12871.751,"text":"好 謝謝全區部那麼接下來我們再請勞動部的專委劉專委進行報告 謝謝"},{"start":12880.123,"end":12898.204,"text":"主席 各位委員在座的專家學者以及各位先進女士先生 大家好本部僅就今天的一個討論題剛就本部所涉及的業務簡要說明保障與維護勞工的一個勞動權益向來是勞動部關切與施政的一個重點"},{"start":12899.285,"end":12919.02,"text":"特別是在國會助理及地方民意代表助理的相關勞動權益的一個部分國會助理已經在我們勞動部在勞工委員會的一個時期已經指定公告適用勞基法地方民意代表的一個僱用的助理也是在89年的3月9號指定適用勞基法"},{"start":12919.68,"end":12940.85,"text":"所以這些助理的相關的勞動權益包括工資、工時、休假、請假以及契約中止等等的事項都應該依據勞基法來去做辦理同時有關委員跟助理之間約定的契約內容都不可以低於這些法定的最低標準"},{"start":12941.65,"end":12958.846,"text":"那此外在立法院的一個組織法第36條第一項以及這個地方民意代表的一個費用資給及村里長事務補助費的一個補助條例的第六條第二項分別有明定這個助理是跟這個委員以及議員同進退"},{"start":12959.586,"end":12982.445,"text":"那因為這些助理的業務具有特定期間以及目的他可以依照勞基法的第九條以及施行細則的第六條去約定特定性的一個定期契約那不過勞基法的一個第十條特別有一個規定就算是一個定期契約他的工作年資如果是在三個月以內另訂行約這個年資是要前後並計"},{"start":12984.327,"end":13002.984,"text":"來保障這些助理的一個勞動權益本部向來重視各類工作者的一個勞動權益國會助理與地方民意代表的一個助理現階段均已適用勞動基準法所以本部會持續跟這個地方政府來共同維護它的一個法定權益"},{"start":13003.624,"end":13013.831,"text":"至關於這些助理的一個各項權益促進的一個制度建立我們本部將會配合大院的一個討論相關制度的時候提供法治意見 謝謝"},{"start":13017.748,"end":13039.116,"text":"好謝謝勞動部的代表發言那麼今天公聽會的發言就到此告一段落那我們再次感謝所有與會者從不同的面向提供諸多的寶貴意見那今天各位所有的發言內容以及書面的意見以及審發會委員莊瑞雄委員他們都有提書面"},{"start":13040.217,"end":13056.338,"text":"資料都會列入記錄刊登公報並且製作為今天的公聽會的報告送交本院全體委員以及本日所列席的人員參考所以今天本次的公聽會我們就到此結束謝謝大家那我們現在散會"}]}},{"id":"17128","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17128","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea6753254e18e0cc642b102e1ee40f217fd5e67b2ed51623752f628fdf2b3d678d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例」修正草案等35案，詳見議事日程。\n【12月17日及18日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-17T08:38:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-17T10:24:00+08:00","duration":6327,"影片長度":"01:45:27","委員發言時間":"08:38:33 - 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宣讀完畢請問各位委員訂單的會議紀錄剛有什麼錯誤跟遺漏有沒有沒有齁再來我們繼續"},{"start":1560.374,"end":1562.556,"text":"議事錄確定現在繼續進行討論屬行家先讀"},{"start":1569.377,"end":1596.73,"text":"繼續審查行政院罕情審議詐欺犯罪危害防治條例部分條文修正草案繼續審查委員王定宇等18人擬拒詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第54條條文修正草案繼續審查委員廖先祥等18人擬拒詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第43條條文修正草案繼續審查委員張宏璐等30人委員林怡瑾等27人委員王逸川等16人委員陳素月等18人委員王美惠等18人分別擬拒詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條條文修正草案"},{"start":1597.71,"end":1623.347,"text":"繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團委員蘇巧慧等22人委員黃婕等21人委員李博義等16人分別擬據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員李昆城等20人擬據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員翁曉琳等25人擬據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第43條及第44條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1624.087,"end":1649.663,"text":"繼續審查委員翁曉琳等24人擬拒詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案繼續審查委員吳佩義等17人擬拒詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第43條條文修正草案繼續審查委員賴瑞龍等17人委員李昆城等23人分別擬拒詐欺犯罪危害防治條例部分條文修正草案繼續審查委員羅志強等19人擬拒詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案"},{"start":1650.563,"end":1668.332,"text":"繼續審查委員洪孟凱等17人拟據詐欺犯罪無害防治條例第43條條文修正查案繼續審查委員黃潔等16人拟據詐欺犯罪無害防治條例第31條第31條之一及第40條條文修正查案審查委員吳佩義等18人拟據詐欺犯罪無害防治條例部分條文修正查案"},{"start":1668.892,"end":1695.505,"text":"審查委員洪孟凱等21人擬拒詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案審查委員郭玉琴等16人委員王美惠等18人分別擬拒詐欺犯罪危害防治條例部分條文修正草案審查委員李燕秀等18人擬拒詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案審查委員王宏威等17人擬拒詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第43條及第50條條文修正草案"},{"start":1696.113,"end":1724.418,"text":"審查委員楊瓊英等29人拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例部分條文修正草案審查委員徐宇甄等19人拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案審查委員徐巧欣等16人拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條條文修正草案審查委員張志倫等17人拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案審查委員羅廷偉等17人拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第43條條文修正草案"},{"start":1725.059,"end":1733.459,"text":"審查委員鄭天才等16人委員萬美玲等21人委員李博義等17人分別拟據詐欺犯罪違害防止條例部分條例修正查案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1737.014,"end":1741.959,"text":"本日的審查法案 約監本會議84年12月13日第11 第4會議第14處專體委員會議報告及諮詢的結束並決議"},{"start":1759.557,"end":1771.647,"text":"定期繼續審查在這個會議繼續進行審查現在我們來介紹在庭的委員及類似的委員我們第一位何孟愷委員徐益臻委員張志倫委員"},{"start":1785.98,"end":1792.566,"text":"張宏祿委員黃婕委員李柏毅委員南內政部劉部長警政署張署長刑事警察局周局長詐欺犯罪防治中心張主任"},{"start":1815.208,"end":1820.371,"text":"行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心王執行秘書法務部黃政務次長跟我們劉主任檢察官司法院刑事廳顧副廳長"},{"start":1842.499,"end":1860.294,"text":"吳法官民視廳毛法官司法行政廳李法官金融監督管理委員會銀行局周主任秘書證件期貨局王主任秘書"},{"start":1873.508,"end":1879.774,"text":"國家通信傳播委員會 法律事務處 謝護處長基礎設施處 呂基正數位發展部 數位產業署 黃護署長"},{"start":1900.809,"end":1913.257,"text":"經濟部商業發展署李主任李組長交通部交通科技及資訊師紀組長農業部農業金融署王組長財政部官務署楊簡恩和稽核"},{"start":1930.902,"end":1932.042,"text":"個人資料保護委員會籌備處法治事務組林組長在這裏我們要抱歉介紹黃珊珊委員檢察師張師長"},{"start":1967.381,"end":1968.341,"text":"我們本日的議程有新增審查法案加提案委員說明我們在委定給何孟愷委員"},{"start":1995.171,"end":2011.575,"text":"主席各位立院同仁以及行政官員大家早內政委員會感謝今天再次排審我們欺詐詐欺犯罪危害條例的修正而其中本席有新增46跟47條的修正草案主要做提案說明在於現況的問題是簡型的門檻過寬對被害人極度不公"},{"start":2017.362,"end":2036.313,"text":"現行的條文詐欺犯只要自白加上繳交犯罪所得就能獲得減刑但是根據最高法院的釋制最新裁定見解即便被告沒有任何取得財物只要他開口認罪自白就能符合減刑要件或是當法官認為"},{"start":2037.426,"end":2062.908,"text":"炸團下游的車手收水手的犯罪所得只有幾千元到幾萬元的報酬因此車手只要繳交微薄的犯罪所得就能獲得減刑這樣的案例過去層出不窮包括說有兩名車手曾經被逮了之後自白一名沒有取得任何犯罪所得沒有繳出任何一毛錢能獲得減刑或者另外只有判另外"},{"start":2064.201,"end":2084.946,"text":"只交了1萬多元的犯罪所得就只判10個月我想這對於司法公正來講對於公平正義來講是遠遠沒有辦法讓國人能夠接受而且會產生一個嚴重的漏洞許多的詐欺犯在訴訟的過程中嘴巴說認罪但實際上沒有對於被害者有任何誠意的賠償能難獲得減刑"},{"start":2087.765,"end":2109.934,"text":"檢心的機制不應該被濫用也不應該對被害者極度不公也因此我們希望在這次修正裡面能夠加強這一個部分讓被害者能夠真真正正的獲得實質的賠償所以落實法令保護被害者的原意本席以及我們在場多位委員來提案修正"},{"start":2110.789,"end":2138.635,"text":"檢刑的標準應該要更嚴格並且有效恢復被害者的利益損失包含兩大重點一 自白要再加上全額的賠償被告除了在偵查跟審判中要認罪以外還必須跟被害者達成和解或者是調解的共識二 確認明確的賠償期限參考刑事訴訟法關於一副調解的規定以及實務案件的處理情形"},{"start":2139.622,"end":2162.231,"text":"明定被告必須在偵查中首次自白之日6個月起全額支付和解的金額才能具備減刑的資格我們希望在這次修法能夠達成三贏的局面第一對被害者來講最短時間內能夠真正彌補被害者同意的賠償金額不用在漫長的訴訟中苦等"},{"start":2162.771,"end":2186.942,"text":"二對於司法程序來說透過強大的減刑誘因來促使被告儘速和解有效縮短徵訊的過程也節省寶貴的司法資源以及第三最重要是社會的公平正義堵決空頭認罪就能換取減刑的歪風確保刑罰的公平性共同加嚴打擊犯罪嚇阻犯罪"},{"start":2187.506,"end":2209.348,"text":"打擊詐騙嚇阻詐騙是我們永遠堅持的路在這條路上只要有詐騙的一天我們就不能放鬆也不該放鬆懇請行政部門以及所有委員共同支持我們的修正草案希望讓今天能夠順利的逐條審查完畢趕快刪讀讓社會公平正義能夠早日實現謝謝"},{"start":2217.251,"end":2221.722,"text":"謝謝我們感謝侯孟楷提案說明我們請徐以貞委員提案說明"},{"start":2232.738,"end":2250.344,"text":"主席 各位同仁及各位列席的官員本席這次提出的炸房條例第46條跟第47條的修正草案其主要的核心不在把刑度寫得更重而是把法律真正拉回被害人的生活現場讓被炸走的退休金 學費 醫療費"},{"start":2251.844,"end":2265.852,"text":"不要再只是停留在判決書上的一句以處刑而是能更快更確實地回到受害家庭的手中依據165的打債儀表板所示國人每年被遭受到詐騙的財損動輒達到超過五六百億"},{"start":2271.275,"end":2300.122,"text":"家庭因此破碎社會因此失序對被害人而言實質的賠償與財務的返還遠比單純的提高刑度更有意義然而實務上卻出現與立法處中相悖的落差最高法院刑事大法庭113年度的裁定以個人實際所得界定犯罪所得的範圍導致為實際取得財務的車手或機房的成員只要自白便可以取得減刑或免刑的效果"},{"start":2301.042,"end":2304.725,"text":"卻未必能夠促成被害人的獲賠反而可能讓詐騙集團用更細緻的分工來規避責任當法律的誘因被扭轉被害人的等待就會被拉長正義也會被稀釋只有痛苦會不斷地累積因此本席這次提案以彌補損害為軸心"},{"start":2322.176,"end":2351.485,"text":"将减刑要件具体化 期限化并把重点从抽象的犯罪所得拉回到可验证的补偿行为避免行为人以未实际取得财务为由推脱返还因此第46条明定行为人犯罪后自首因于自首之日起6个月内支付与被害人达成协调调解与和解的全部金额使得减轻或免除其刑"},{"start":2352.165,"end":2372.993,"text":"第四七條應明定行為人在偵查或歷次審判中均自白者應於檢察官偵查中首次自白之日起六個月支付前述的全部金額使得減輕期限以明確的期限避免訴訟程序因等待籌款而一再的拖延也讓減刑"},{"start":2374.113,"end":2383.217,"text":"不再只是口頭的表態而是能夠全部的以實際的補償來換取同時詐騙犯罪多數組織分工個別的成員所得並不等於集團取得的全部財務流向為強化溯源查緝瓦解集團本席提案並增訂如應行為人之協助而查獲發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人獲得以"},{"start":2403.264,"end":2427.655,"text":"扣押該組織自署名被害人之取得之全部財富或財產上的利益者得依規定減輕或免除其刑以兼顧被害人的權益與偵查的效能我們要用制度告訴社會詐騙不是抓到了就算了更要有拿回來才算數的決心希望大家共同來支持這次的修法謝謝"},{"start":2435.064,"end":2440.736,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝徐益臻提案說明我們請張志倫委員提案"},{"start":2449.218,"end":2468.565,"text":"好謝謝主席各位同仁本席跟17位委員連署針對現行詐欺犯罪防治條例第46條及47條提出修正草案目的是為了填補現在司法實務上的漏洞也落實真正"},{"start":2469.105,"end":2482.633,"text":"被害人損害填補的立法初衷首先剛剛很多委員提到最高法院刑事大法庭的這個最新的裁定113年的裁定將減刑的要件"},{"start":2483.666,"end":2503.716,"text":"犯罪所得限縮於解釋犯罪行為人實際獲取之個人所得這樣的見解好像跟立法初衷不符因為詐欺集團的車手跟機房的人員可能經手了數百萬甚至更高的詐騙款項但個人的分論在形式上可能只有微薄的幾千元"},{"start":2505.595,"end":2522.32,"text":"但依現行的法令解釋他們只要繳回這幾千元的個人所得並自白就可以獲得減刑這不僅無法讓被害人拿回來他們被騙的血汗錢更有可能鼓勵犯罪者以小搏大"},{"start":2523.32,"end":2533.714,"text":"顯然違背了本條例使詐欺被害人取得財產損害的核心目的所以因此本席在這邊提出修正第46條第4條主要是兩大重點第一應該明確減刑門檻"},{"start":2538.801,"end":2568.062,"text":"落實全額賠償在減刑的條件將自動繳交犯罪所得修正為必須依照調解或和解的內容全額填補被害人所受損失同時為了避免被告藉機用拖延訴訟的方式讓被害人產生心理的壓力我們明定必須在自首或檢察官偵查中自白之日起"},{"start":2568.963,"end":2573.455,"text":"6個月內將賠償金全數給付完畢才可以減刑"},{"start":2576.014,"end":2604.893,"text":"這樣可以使被告展現具懺悔意及賠償的誠意不是僅有口頭認罪或講迴駁的酬勞就想要減刑第二 區隔賠償責任強化溯源的誘因我們也修正了第二條的規定明確區隔個別行為人的賠償責任以及犯罪組織的追張範圍如果犯罪者能進一步提供具體的事證"},{"start":2606.415,"end":2624.654,"text":"協助檢警查獲詐欺集團的首腦或者是查扣該組織所有被害人所取得的不法利德才能獲得檢除期刑透過明確的區分層次才可以保障被害"},{"start":2625.816,"end":2651.263,"text":"人的求償的權利而且可以引發這個集團內部成員才有機會窩裡一反還有有機會吹哨者才能實現他們的這個成效來協助這個挖掘被害集團 詐欺集團綜上所述本次修法的回應社會對於打擊詐騙的期待以及期待嚴處犯罪與被害人的保護那甘請各位同仁支持謝謝"},{"start":2659.448,"end":2680.877,"text":"謝謝感謝張志倫委員提案說明我們請李博義委員提案說明這個我在上次詢答的時候有說明過好"},{"start":2687.751,"end":2707.404,"text":"類似的機關準備之書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報我們來處理法案報告委員會現在宣讀的新增提案討論屬項第22-35案"},{"start":2713.871,"end":2717.805,"text":"條款能夠修正動議加一併限讀"},{"start":2724.272,"end":2743.861,"text":"宣讀新增提案計14案第7條委員郭玉琴等16人提案委員王美惠等18人提案委員楊瓊英等29人提案委員鄭天才等16人提案委員李博義等17人提案均同行政院提案第8條委員郭玉琴等16人提案委員楊瓊英等29人提案委員鄭天才等16人提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":2744.561,"end":2766.289,"text":"委員王美惠等18人提案第4項後段增訂客戶資訊之蒐集處理利用及其他應注意事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同金融監督管理委員會定之其餘同行政院提案委員李博義等17人提案增訂第6項第4項平台之個人資料使用應符合個人資料保護法之相關規定其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":2767.009,"end":2787.194,"text":"第9條委員郭玉琴等16人提案委員王美惠等18人提案委員楊瓊英等29人提案委員鄭天才等16人提案委員李博義等17人提案均同行政院提案第10條委員郭玉琴等16人提案委員王美惠等18人提案委員楊瓊英等29人提案委員鄭天才等16人提案委員李博義等17人提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":2787.794,"end":2808.176,"text":"第十一条委员郭玉琴等16人提案委员王美惠等18人提案委员杨琼英等29人提案委员郑天才等16人提案委员李博弈等17人提案均同行政院提案第十三条委员郭玉琴等16人提案委员王美惠等18人提案委员杨琼英等29人提案委员郑天才等16人提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":2808.997,"end":2830.166,"text":"第三十條委員楊瓊英等二十九人提案第一項後段增訂違則處新台幣一百萬元以上二百萬元以上罰還並令其限期改善借其未改善者按次處罰其餘同線型條文第四十二條委員吳佩儀等十八人提案委員郭玉琴等十六人提案委員王美惠等十八人提案委員楊瓊英等二十九人提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":2830.826,"end":2847.021,"text":"委員鄭天才等16人提案將後段之得令網際網路接取服務提供者為停止解析或限制接取之處置修正為應令網際網路接取服務者服務提供者為停止解析或限制接取之處置其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":2847.882,"end":2871.893,"text":"第43條委員郭玉琴等16人提案前段修正為犯刑法第339條之四之罪使人交付之財物或財產上利益達新台幣50萬元者其餘同行政院提案委員王美惠等18人提案第一項後段修正為使人交付財物或財產上利益達新台幣1000萬元以上者處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣3億元以下罰金"},{"start":2872.373,"end":2895.261,"text":"使人交付财务或财产上利益达新台币1亿元以上者处7年以上有期徒刑得并科新台币5亿元以下罚金其余同委员郭玉琴等16人提案第一项增订第二项金融机构电信事业提供虚拟资产服务知识业网路广告平台业者电商业者第三方支付服务业者网路连线游戏业者等相关事业志愿工"},{"start":2896.101,"end":2916.218,"text":"藉職勿犯詐欺犯罪加重起刑二分之一委員王宏威等17人提案委員楊秋英等29人提案委員鄭天才等16人提案均同行政院提案委員羅廷偉等17人提案前段修正違犯刑法第339條之四之罪使人交付之財物或財產上利益達新台幣500萬元者其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":2916.838,"end":2941.813,"text":"委員萬美玲等21人提案第43條犯刑法第339條之四之罪詐欺獲取制財物或財產上利益達新台幣100萬元者處3年以上10年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣1000萬元以上5000萬元以下罰金因犯罪獲取制財物或財產上利益達新台幣1000萬元者處7年以上12年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣5000萬元以上1億元以下罰金"},{"start":2942.233,"end":2962.74,"text":"因犯罪獲取製財物或財產上利益達新台幣1億元者處無期徒刑或12年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣1億元以上10億元以下罰金第44條委員吳佩義等18人提案委員郭玉琴等16人提案委員王美惠等18人提案委員楊瓊英等29人提案委員鄭天才等16人提案軍統行政院提案"},{"start":2963.28,"end":2979.891,"text":"委員萬美玲等21人提案第三項法則修正為處無期徒刑或12年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣10億元以下罰金其餘通現行條文第46條委員洪孟凱等21人提案委員郭玉琴等16人提案委員楊瓊英等29人提案委員徐玉珍等19人提案"},{"start":2980.291,"end":2996.946,"text":"委員張志倫等17人提案委員鄭天才等16人提案均同行政院提案委員王美惠等18人提案第一項第一項違犯詐欺犯罪於犯罪後自首且與被害人達成和解並填補被害人所受損害者得減輕或免除其刑第二項同行政院提案"},{"start":2997.666,"end":3013.212,"text":"委員李燕秀等18人提案第一項為犯詐欺犯罪於犯罪後自首並於自首之日起6個月內支付與全部被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額及自動繳交其其餘犯罪所得者得減輕或免除其刑第二項同行政院提案"},{"start":3013.912,"end":3029.467,"text":"委員萬美玲等20人提案前段修正為犯詐欺犯罪於犯罪後自首自動繳交其犯罪所得被害人受詐騙之財物及財產上利益或與全部被害人於第一審言次辯論終結前達成調解或和解者其與同現行條文"},{"start":3030.047,"end":3053.65,"text":"第47條委員吳佩義等18人提案第二項修正為前項請行並因而查獲發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之忍者或得以扣押該組織所取得全部被害人交付之所有財物或財產上利益者得免除其刑得以扣押該組織所取得一部被害人交付之所有財物或財產上利益者得減輕其刑其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":3054.25,"end":3057.713,"text":"王美惠等18人提案第一項為犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白且與被害人達成和解並"},{"start":3073.824,"end":3093.256,"text":"填補被害人所受損害者得減輕其刑第二項投行證願提案委員李燕秀等18人提案第一項違犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並與檢察官偵查中首次自白之日起6個月內致賦予全部被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額及自動繳交其其餘犯罪所得者得減輕其刑"},{"start":3094.196,"end":3109.741,"text":"第二項同行政院提案委員徐巧欣等16人提案前段修正為犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並於檢察官偵查中首次自白之日起三個月內之負與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額者則減輕起刑其餘同現行條文"},{"start":3110.821,"end":3133.812,"text":"委員萬美玲等21人提案前段修正為犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白自動繳交其犯罪所得被害人受詐騙之財物及財產上利益或與全部被害人於第一審言辭辯論終結前達成調解或和解者其餘同現行條文第50條委員吳佩義等18人提案第二項序文最末段修正為有責加重其刑其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":3134.352,"end":3155.281,"text":"委員郭玉琴等16人提案委員王美惠等18人提案委員鄭天才等16人提案均同行政院提案委員王宏威等17人提案第二項序文修正為詐欺犯罪後犯罪行為人與賠償被害人所受全部損害前法院由應注意犯罪行為人有無下列事項為科刑輕重之標準其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":3156.221,"end":3176.008,"text":"修正動議第44條增訂第一項第三款三教唆幫助或利用未滿18歲人滿80歲人或非本國籍人士泛知其與同行政院其與同行政院提案提案委員人提案人委員王美惠等三人宣讀完畢"},{"start":3180.222,"end":3194.7,"text":"我們提案條文都已經宣讀完畢請問一個各位委員我們是不是不用再進行大體討論我們來直接進行主條討論有什麼問題嗎好"},{"start":3201.721,"end":3219.505,"text":"再來我們進行主條討論協商但是在這裡委員會報告修正動議第一第二第三第四因為委員已經提案了所以他撤案這樣我們現在來進行協商謝謝"},{"start":3270.114,"end":3271.114,"text":"我們現在來主條討論我們有第七條的開始看提案人還是什麼人有問題嗎第七條"},{"start":3300.069,"end":3328.18,"text":"狂解委員好謝謝那針對第7條我是覺得行政院版是OK的那只是說我覺得在執行上可能會因為其實原本賴樂文委員的版本裡面有寫到說一些更細緻的部分就是到時候到底要怎麼執行嗎那我覺得是不是可以拜託警政署到時候用行政命令的方式把那一些細節包括種類啊範圍啊目的啊也寫出來到時候你們內部在訂的時候行政命令是可以寫的"},{"start":3328.94,"end":3342.966,"text":"那才不會說這個這個必要範圍會比較空泛一點對就是包括提供哪些資料等等的這些事都可以再更明確化那當然我覺得在法條上面寫這樣是已經蠻明確的了以上一件謝謝"},{"start":3349.861,"end":3369.676,"text":"我的提案跟行政院版本是一樣的我們也都在電視看到或者是各種網路媒體裡面看到警政署很用心一直在處理這一些你會看到很生動活潑的一些很生動的一些畫面警方已經去找疑似被害人他可能要去匯款了"},{"start":3370.296,"end":3387.125,"text":"但是已經勸阻他之後那去到金融機構他還是一樣在匯款那所以其實防不勝防那最後還是要找警方報案所以我會支持院版那我自己的提案也跟院版一樣給警方相對的這些勸阻的能力以上謝謝這樣的話"},{"start":3393.757,"end":3403.566,"text":"不用說了這樣我們照行政院提案通過再來我們在八條的我們請立法委員"},{"start":3411.448,"end":3437.597,"text":"第8條跟第7條要連著看第8條的意思就是說不是只有一家金融機構它所有的這些包含可能財團法人信用卡處理中心或者是金融廉政中心或者是證券櫃買中心或者是期貨交易所 集包所票據中心等等的這些把它這些明確的規範出來之外"},{"start":3438.237,"end":3463.688,"text":"那我也要提醒等一下是不是可以請金管會也來做一個說明當這些行員或者是這些金融機構的承辦人員或者是相關人員他有這些被害人資料之後他會不會拿來推銷這些他們的金融商品我覺得這個還是要明確一點所以我提出可能我們的客戶資料"},{"start":3465.029,"end":3488.242,"text":"被拿來作為分析詐騙犯罪但是也有可能會被拿來做商業推廣跟行銷這是在金融端我想請金管會來說明這一部分有沒有相關的規範或者是我們把這一條放進去我的這個第八條的最後最後一項裡面這樣是適不適宜謝謝來我們請金管會"},{"start":3500.914,"end":3528.825,"text":"是 因為我們資料運用金融機構本來資料運用所有資料運用都是在必要範圍內尤其是在打詐所需它本來的 即使不是打詐所需其他的業務資料都是在收集處理利用必須要合約它使用的目的 這個是無庸置疑但是我們在這個法條上有特別加到說是必要範圍內而且在相關的使用方面我們也會在執法上去做明確的規範"},{"start":3534.522,"end":3562.911,"text":"我把它放在最後一項裡面就是說平台個人資料使用應符合個人資料保護法的相關規定就是說我們金融端的這些從業人員相關的人員他接觸到這一個疑似被害人你500萬要匯到國外去給你沒有見過的男女朋友那這500萬你要不要拿來做什麼金融投資這一條線有沒有辦法在你現在講的規範裡面可以守得住"},{"start":3564.713,"end":3583.268,"text":"因為它本來就要符合各執法相關規定而且金融機構我們現在資料運用都是有相關嚴格的規範說它不可以超出它使用目的就是收集處理利用的目的之外所以這個尤其是打造這個特別敏感的資料我們就是會有相關的執法來做相關規範"},{"start":3585.171,"end":3607.265,"text":"安家淑喬惠委員好謝謝因為金管會竟然來了還坐在我對面那我就剛好就想要特別問一下因為我先說其實我們對於這次這個打造的部分大家都非常的關注那我們也對於行政院的提案的這個部分其實也看到經過這段時間行政院的整體來講我覺得行政院板下的文字"},{"start":3607.685,"end":3628.264,"text":"很多都做了精进包括我个人提出的46 47条其实现在的院版的文字甚至是比我的还要更精简精进我是支持了我支持院版甚至我觉得我的意思已经到了好那可是如果回到第7条这边刚刚反而是听到金管会现在的说明就是您说这个你会有"},{"start":3628.684,"end":3655.483,"text":"这个未来会继续精进啊会有执法啊来会这个继续执行等等那我反而是看到了你这个12月11号提出的这个报告你对于这个虚拟或通货虚拟通货平台及交易事务事业防治洗钱及打击滋恐办法还是简称比较好啦就是VSPC防法办法的这个部分你又说我们分了四个阶段其实你反而是在你自己的第四阶段说你会推动专法"},{"start":3656.323,"end":3656.823,"text":"以上"},{"start":3678.223,"end":3694.575,"text":"跟委員報告我們訂定那個VASP的專法主要是對這個產業的一些管理那今天討論的是這個打炸的那打炸的話我們其實剛剛銀行局組也有提到其實我們會有一些相關的執法"},{"start":3694.955,"end":3715.503,"text":"那對在相關的執法裡面我們其實會對於金融機構還有這個VASP業者包括客戶的保密還有就是他在這個剛剛講的這個行銷的這個哪一些應該不能做或是什麼這應該是在打詐的執法裡面做規範而不是在專法裡面做規範對對對專法分層啦你們剛剛在報告裡面雖然只是簡單講這樣但講的其實是不一樣的東西對"},{"start":3725.322,"end":3746.146,"text":"好了規範更嚴謹當然我們是都支持啦我們也是希望有專法這個這邊的專法啦這樣比較這樣我們是不是他們各自法有的處理我們是不是叫行政院提案通過好這樣我們再來第九條的環節委員"},{"start":3755.996,"end":3779.487,"text":"好 我覺得這一條是沒有問題只是說因為還是會有一些民眾會抱怨說他們的帳戶被莫名其妙的凍結所以如果這一條授權警方可以主動通知金融機關來凍結帳戶的話是不是有一些附加條款或者是一些配套讓民眾知道說自己在什麼樣的情況下被凍結而不是說警方說凍結就凍結"},{"start":3781.048,"end":3802.009,"text":"那當然我覺得授權警方主動去凍結這個金融機關的賬戶是好事啦可以縮短這個時間差不然以往都是金融機關先知道賬戶有問題然後再請警方再去請銀行來凍結那確實中間會有這樣的時間差嘛那只是說避免這個民眾被莫名其妙凍結或者說他在一個"},{"start":3803.771,"end":3812.041,"text":"不知道理由的情况下被冻结这个有没有一些配套可不可以请可能警政署这边补充说明一下来 亲爱的署长"},{"start":3822.376,"end":3839.786,"text":"剛剛對黃委員所提的部分因為這個凍結的話我們都是依據目前他的這個狀況譬如說他這個賬戶是被詐騙集團拿來當作匯款的賬戶那這個部分的話我們其實現在就是凍結被申訴的部分可能很少就是3%左右那所以呢我們這部分"},{"start":3842.772,"end":3849.956,"text":"如果說是有必要來做這個附加的條件我們會來這邊就是來勾選給大家來注意一下好不好"},{"start":3862.931,"end":3880.099,"text":"張宏祿委員就像部長講的這應該有分吧警示帳戶或什麼的不過我現在在看這一個條文你們的修改這樣子如果照字面這樣子看因調查的主動"},{"start":3881.94,"end":3907.639,"text":"那會不會就是說以後有個情況就是說我明明知道你會被詐騙那你硬要匯款那你們通知這些金融機構就阻止他匯款有沒有這個權利我字面上看你們就是只要涉及詐欺就可以採取這些情況我說的情況有沒有在你們預想的範圍裡面"},{"start":3909.7,"end":3912.683,"text":"因為你們這邊寫的這樣來是不是那個稍微比較清楚"},{"start":3927.406,"end":3951.406,"text":"因為現在這種等於是我們講的是潛在被害人那這種被害人其實是我們經過很多方法來查出來的那我們現在就是說他要跟這些業者因為各銀行之間他們不能把資料拿來互通所以我們才會有這樣的一個條文的修正所以我們也希望說能夠付給警察就是給他更多的權利然後限制"},{"start":3952.547,"end":3971.344,"text":"我沒有反對這個修法啊我只是問你說我說的這個有沒有涵蓋在內啊人家張志倫委員"},{"start":3973.582,"end":3987.756,"text":"好 謝謝那這第9條我們的修正就是說希望警方可以主動通報然後最重要就是要暫停這個涉詐的基隆帳戶就是阻斷詐騙金流我覺得是很重要的一個防線"},{"start":3988.777,"end":4012.199,"text":"那可是我這邊也是要請教那如果這條通過了以後會不會未來造成你們警方的內部的程序要如何去來做實行然後來去做這個就是說未來有可能潛在就是被害人匯款去把他阻斷的這個情形那因為我怕這條通過以後以後民眾知道這條通過以後他就說那就一直要求你們要阻斷"},{"start":4014.02,"end":4038.326,"text":"這個帳戶的時候你們如何去做因應會不會造成警方的一些壓力就是說我就說只要我覺得有詐騙我就說警方你就是把他的帳戶趕快給他凍結那你們會來如果你們不凍結會不會變成你們的失職所以說這個部分當然我覺得這是一個很好的法條的通過只是說在一般的民眾生活很大或者是對警察相關的這個壓力的這個部分那你們是不是可以再詳盡做一下解釋"},{"start":4041.937,"end":4044.18,"text":"來 說明來 主人來"},{"start":4045.483,"end":4073.34,"text":"報告幾位委員那個有關先跟報告就是說第9條其實他的警示帳戶這個他的關鍵是我們是用在針對涉詐的帳戶去做這一個警示暫停交易那剛剛張大委員您所提的東西其實那個就是規範在第7條的潛在被害人資料所以那個現行範圍其實我們都已經有依照署長局長指示我們都有非常明確的給了很相關的公函的行政命令下去"},{"start":4073.98,"end":4096.096,"text":"我們本來是10類 其實我們已經限縮到高風險的5類也就是這個5類是非常非常明確的去讓被害人不要持續匯款所以這個功效其實已經讓今年的11月跟去年10月比較起來財損大幅下降了百分之五十幾所以這個部分現行很多金融機構不敢做的原因完全是在於沒有明確的法律授權"},{"start":4097.057,"end":4107.675,"text":"所以這條說真的這條是非常對我們國家來防止被害人持續招詐是非常非常的重要那至於剛剛所提到的這個第九條的部分其實專門是在指色詐的帳戶"},{"start":4111.724,"end":4133.072,"text":"那警示的那個依據其實在第一線的時候同仁受理報案的時候就會先做檢驗如果有錯誤到金融機構他會再檢核一次所以其實出錯的機率不會很大但是我們還是會依照大委員指示剛剛所長就講有指示說我們回去會再做一些更細緻的作為 以上金管會"},{"start":4135.655,"end":4150.521,"text":"補充一下警政署長官說明的已經是非常具體跟清楚了大概我們我們金融機構大概就是配合警政署這個警示賬戶的制度其實也運作一段時間了那現在有明確的法律授權我們金融機構會更有這個依據來處理是不是我們叫行政院提案通過再來我們第十條"},{"start":4170.828,"end":4175.812,"text":"第10條的 如果沒有意見 我們叫行政院提案通過現在來11條的11條的 我們如果沒有意見 就叫行政院提案通過來第13條的"},{"start":4211.328,"end":4213.23,"text":"13男嘉張宏祿委員"},{"start":4216.492,"end":4241.213,"text":"我不好意思我剛剛第九我們這個法條都是連貫的我們剛剛講的第九條然後主任講的剛剛那個第七條被害人可是你仔細給他看他只有對被害人的這個賬戶關懷勸導或通知司法警察機關到場而已"},{"start":4242.796,"end":4264.125,"text":"他沒有像第九條是寫得這麼明確所以我剛剛才會問那個問題不好意思因為這個我們應該要很仔細的去審這個法條所以又回到七跟九來 各位大家請坐 講得清楚的來 請坐在這邊"},{"start":4273.892,"end":4299.06,"text":"跟委員報告就是第7條我們這邊寫的意思是在指說被害人的身分資料就是他身分證跟相關姓名之類然後就是這個部分去給所有的金融機構跟虛擬戰業者去做明確說這是被害人你要趕快去勸說他並且通知我們警方到現場這樣才會具體有效所以低效的目的在這個地方第9條的部分其實就是剛剛跟"},{"start":4300.38,"end":4308.745,"text":"委員報告就是說這個部分是在針對已經報案的涉詐的賬戶我們要把它警示是這個部分像"},{"start":4314.654,"end":4342.966,"text":"補充一下就是說第七條他因為是針對潛在的被害人他其實還沒有進入到真正的就是他的行為階段還沒有進入到真正犯罪去偵查的時候只是潛在而已潛在的話如果說就要凍結或是處理他的賬戶可能會不符合比例原則因為對他的那個對他的那個財產權會比較有大的傷害所以我們是第七條第二款還是基於保護潛在被害人的一個觀念去處罰以上"},{"start":4346.007,"end":4367.976,"text":"我对这个我没有意见我刚刚只是问说你第9条有没有规范到我说的那个情况那你们现在所说的就是没有规范到那个情况对不对没有对对吗你们就回答我们在这个你们要讲清楚你们在那边绕来绕去对啊来我们现在卖真伪言"},{"start":4369.697,"end":4388.51,"text":"謝謝主席 因為剛剛我們張委員有提到第七跟第九我這邊也是有很多就是你們說潛在的所以很多的移工或者新住民他的帳戶也是莫名其妙被動了"},{"start":4389.871,"end":4406.022,"text":"但是動了就沒有原因去問警察警察說等通知也沒有做筆錄完全沒有就動了一年還是一樣沒有處理也沒有收到任何通知我這邊也收到很多是這樣所以說他們去報案的時候因為"},{"start":4407.003,"end":4433.84,"text":"銀行動他們了 警察這邊也沒有要做筆錄所以這個是是懷疑淺占還是說真的像說第九條這樣子的所以他們完全都沒有收到通知喔就是銀行沒辦法用去問警察 警察說等通知 也沒有做筆錄所以這個 這個是淺占還是說你們覺得是說他已經是納入詐騙了嗎這個部分我們也是想要清楚這樣"},{"start":4436.502,"end":4462.55,"text":"我們現在主任再解釋清楚報告委員就是這個部分不會是被害人他應該是已經報案的我們的就是外籍的這個外籍他是被列已經是受理報案匯到這個外籍的人頭帳戶去那如果今天他沒有刷通知那有可能會不會是因為他已經出境了"},{"start":4464.864,"end":4485.713,"text":"但是他入境以後我們還是會有的是有台灣身份證的新住民他們也被就是他們的帳戶也被動了就動一兩年了但是他們就是說都完全也沒有處理也沒有收到通知也沒有做要請他們做筆錄所以他們也不知道說他是怎麼回事這樣子"},{"start":4489.395,"end":4510.619,"text":"剛剛黃委員有提到我們以後會在這個就是通知就是我們把你這個帳戶設成警示的時候我們把你的條件或是你涉案的原因會把它作為一個註記然後這個部分我們會剛剛在討論的時候有講過那這個剛剛你提的那個應該不是潛在騙人而是到帳戶被人家這個就是賣給人家或提供帳戶變成涉嫌洗錢防治法的部分"},{"start":4511.485,"end":4525.989,"text":"完全沒有完全沒有是說因為他有匯款是說你們懷疑就是懷疑說他是不是設詐騙或者是說匯款什麼的所以就會被動所以是這樣不是說他是完全是他的帳戶去賣給別人是這樣所以我們看到第七條跟第九條是有是說已經是"},{"start":4540.333,"end":4565.819,"text":"真的是說我們有通報對不對我們懷疑或者通報我們在動他們嘛但是他們完全也不知道是怎麼回事啦是這樣子的意思啦這個個案我們會再了解那剛剛我們所提的那個就是大部分的我們會通知原因好謝謝好謝謝這樣我們13條如果沒有什麼意見我們叫行政院提案通過我們再來13條"},{"start":4574.246,"end":4581.932,"text":"現在30條 因為提案人不在現場 我們就不討論了再來 鎮定31級的黃捷委員"},{"start":4591.775,"end":4595.301,"text":"31條31對 31條跟31條之一那這個我剛剛跟我們抒發部已經有討論過了那是不是附帶決議的文字應該還在印嗎"},{"start":4607.436,"end":4634.423,"text":"對好的 因為我們有溝通過了先用附帶決議處理那只是說文字我希望來的時候讓我可以唸一下這樣好 這樣待會文字來給我唸一下現在40條對 那我還是不好意思再讓我說明一下我還是希望最終的目標是這一些網路平台的業者他們有義務要把他們的平台管理好那因為現在網路詐騙真的是非常主要的一個管道"},{"start":4635.463,"end":4659.376,"text":"對 所以希望說這個未來一定要對 趕快讓我們一起來讓大家知道說我們是有意願速發部是有意願而且也很努力在監管這些網路平台業者的然後我們也希望要求網路平台業者要有在台灣要有客服中心要明確的說遇到狀況了業者要自己找人出來進行這些服務跟面對"},{"start":4660.416,"end":4688.59,"text":"那而不是說最後的責任都落在警政署落在肅發部好 謝謝好 謝謝我們請吳啟明委員好 因為今天我們肅發部其實現在詐騙的他的手機真的 他這個手法真的是都定義是亂槍打鳥因為我本身就這麼久不通不是說台南的地政局不就是高雄的社會局還有我剛剛說叫出我的名字"},{"start":4689.29,"end":4711.15,"text":"所以說在這個部分 但是它的來電都不顯示所以說在這個部分 甚至說我們事務部在這個部分 你就要做管制因為很多 何況說我們接到 相信說大部分民眾全國 他們都是這樣 電話一直在卡所以說在這個部分 家庭網路"},{"start":4711.79,"end":4725.057,"text":"尤其網路的詐騙也是非常嚴重的所以說在這部分我們事務部真的這個部分是我們要管制不用在說 你說來電的這種的看我就是想辦法去查他們的追蹤來源這種要怎麼好處讓他們可以不要這樣一直層出不窮造成很多民眾的受害這個部分一定要去檢討謝謝"},{"start":4742.711,"end":4748.774,"text":"好 謝謝 我們31條維持現行條文有附帶結議來嗎那等一下附帶 待會兒再說我們31條之一不以爭定再來我們40條"},{"start":4770.643,"end":4778.73,"text":"維持現行條文再來42條還有什麼人有意見嗎這樣我們就照行政院提案通過再來43條來 我們這裡埋政委員"},{"start":4801.52,"end":4814.872,"text":"我們這邊有提那個修正動議就是警視警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心有提到就是說數據表示目前詐欺金額就是100萬以上的案件僅只有10%但是為了強化對於人民財產權的保障"},{"start":4828.343,"end":4834.308,"text":"提高詐欺集團犯罪的風險所以有嚴厲造成被害人的財產損害的金額下修為50萬這預計可含包"},{"start":4847.86,"end":4863.351,"text":"案件比例可以擴大到15.74%所以這個是我們是有提修正動議所以剛才有有那個修正動議有給大家大家可以看一下 謝謝來問題沒有"},{"start":4877.104,"end":4903.658,"text":"43條 司法院加重刑罰 來主席 司法院這邊有意見表示就是說原本高額詐欺罪從500萬降到100萬這個是行政院提出來版本這個部分雖然是對我們法服的辯護量人造成一個衝擊但是基於政府打詐的一個決心我們是尊重大院以及行政院這樣一個政策的決定"},{"start":4904.799,"end":4921.069,"text":"但是如果說要把高額詐欺罪的下限從100萬降到50萬的話我們認為說這個案件量我們估算的結果恐怕會太多光100萬降到50萬這個部分大概就5萬件每一件法服如果是3萬元的話這個大概就有15億元"},{"start":4923.69,"end":4949.657,"text":"目前法服的預算大概就是15億多等於多一倍甚至這個部分還不包含二審如果二審再算上去的話可能更多所以我們認為說這個部分可能會造成國家的一個財政的一個嚴重的負擔而且可能會加深民眾對於政府投入大量的一個法服預算去輔助詐欺被告可能會有一些觀感這個部分可能是需要去斟酌的"},{"start":4950.997,"end":4969.668,"text":"另外就是說我們也是擔心說未來如果說降到50萬的話大量的一個強制辯護案件可能會拖延法院訴訟的一個進行然後會造成沒辦法速審速決也沒辦法說及時保護被害人"},{"start":4970.688,"end":4992.297,"text":"另外就是說如果50萬元以上一律都三年以上我們認為說這部分恐怕是不符合比例原則或憲法的罪行相當原則法務部的報告裡面也有提到所以我們是認為說我們希望說能夠尊重行政院的這樣一個版本希望說委員能夠支持"},{"start":4997.681,"end":5014.772,"text":"我們可以請那個炸反中心來說明一下嘛因為他們今天有來嘛有來中心的來講一下因為他們是請我們幫忙提的請他們幫忙提你還有什麼意見啊"},{"start":5024.304,"end":5028.248,"text":"所以我們希望說他們來說明一下那表示數據表示 所以請他們來說明一下講錯講錯因為我們這個法是不需要修改真的有辦法用我們也讓詐騙集團怕到不是修修的說我們不好這樣讓警察來表示意見一下是 莊委"},{"start":5054.85,"end":5072.352,"text":"是 各位委員 先進 大家好我們最主要是有統計今年1到11月的被害人財損的級距統計表就是說在超過整年我們這樣講好了就是說今年跟去年比起來11月跟去年11月比起來11月的數據"},{"start":5073.433,"end":5100.411,"text":"大幅的財損降了50%那實質上金額還是高達了59億多所以我們基本上一直都戰戰兢兢希望能夠一直打下去那去年其實大概這個期間都是130幾億120幾億所以實在是下降很多那依照這個比例的部分以這個為基準值那在這個裡面的話在超過500萬以上在所有的今年1到11月的數據只不過佔2.21%"},{"start":5103.513,"end":5126.505,"text":"那超過100萬以上的就是說在超過財損個人財損超過被害人財損超過100萬以上的是10.1%也就是說還有89.多的被害人他並不能因為這一個炸防條例去受到一個保護所以我們才會說如果說可以的話就是說希望50萬的話統計就到達了15.74%"},{"start":5131.468,"end":5136.932,"text":"所以我們才會是說見請可以佐量考量看看以上要強調說明是他們提供的數據所以我們不是他們提供的數據少一個字所以大家嘩叫所以說他們提供的數據所以我們希望說就是可以可以這樣修所以不要那麼驚訝好"},{"start":5159.912,"end":5168.581,"text":"這樣我們就叫行政院提案通過來我們現在再來四十四條"},{"start":5184.361,"end":5188.229,"text":"主席我們這個我們有提那個修正動議"},{"start":5192.892,"end":5193.973,"text":"44條所以我們針對這條的修正就是我們都贊同但希望行政院版中加一個第一項第三款的規範主要也是因為詐欺集團常利用80歲以上"},{"start":5214.985,"end":5234.781,"text":"長者或者非本國籍人士從事就是犯罪所以這個族群比較容易收控所以需要重處罰以保護我們的弱勢若沒有意義的話所以我們建議照我們提案的修正"},{"start":5236.942,"end":5250.249,"text":"條文通過因為警視警察局詐騙中心有提出未成年的部分考量另外有少年事件處理法"},{"start":5251.389,"end":5261.192,"text":"第85條的規定成年人就是幫助或者利用未滿18歲人犯或者是提供同時是犯罪者依其所犯"},{"start":5270.598,"end":5288.434,"text":"自罪扎重其刑至二分之一因此若在本條納入是否可能就不適用少年事件處理法案第85條反而幫利用18歲以下之人"},{"start":5289.656,"end":5300.806,"text":"就詐騙犯減刑所以本席提出修正動議暫不將未成年寫進這個法案謝謝好"},{"start":5308.429,"end":5332.306,"text":"抱歉我們這裡 徐益臻委員謝謝主席有關這一條的我們增訂的第三項就是教唆或幫助或利用滿80歲以上或非本國籍人士泛知就是非本國籍人士那如果是有雙重國籍的部分呢針對這個部分會有什麼樣子的一個法令的解釋請說明"},{"start":5338.126,"end":5363.645,"text":"來先說明一下我們有意見大家可以再說因為這條我看都有修正動議那就是目前我們是多規範的非本國籍人士範製那如果是雙重國籍他同時具有中華民國的國籍那也具有外國國籍的這樣子的他會不會有這樣子的法律漏洞他說因為他不是非本國籍人士"},{"start":5364.986,"end":5384.828,"text":"我們這邊理解因為這個等於是一個構成要件那非本國籍就是如果沒有說我們中華民國國籍以外的包含說他這個是外國國籍或者是他無國籍人士的話應該這都包含那如果說他今天是雙重國籍有一個國籍是我們中華民國國籍的話那這個部分就不適用這個條文"},{"start":5387.645,"end":5404.338,"text":"如果雙重國籍他不會專漏洞就說他不是非本國籍人士就用中華民國國籍來去規範而且這個詐偽條例裡面本身就已經有非本國籍的一些用語所以我想說這個大家理解上應該是可以一致這樣好 我們這裡張鴻祿委員"},{"start":5407.256,"end":5424.442,"text":"我覺得大家講的都有道理可是我覺得如果說你叫說18歲以下的你不加重期刑我也覺得很奇怪你滿80歲都有了未成年你沒有加重期刑"},{"start":5425.642,"end":5437.653,"text":"我倒覺得這個大家要思考一下我是覺得18歲以下也要不管還有什麼法令我覺得都要立法的目的就是要讓全民知道政府的作為我認為應該是這樣好來 主管有意見嗎"},{"start":5455.474,"end":5455.898,"text":"來 司法院"},{"start":5459.583,"end":5485.435,"text":"主席各位先進對於委員體修正動議的立法材料權予以尊重只不過因為兒少權益保障法第112條的體例除了叫說幫助利用之外還有與之共同實施犯罪這樣的一個要件的用語所以是在委員提案的基礎之上看是不是把它修正文字成為以下的文字"},{"start":5486.215,"end":5498.202,"text":"就教唆幫助或利用未滿18歲滿80歲或非本國籍人士犯罪或與之共同實施犯罪這樣子可能比較完成規範謝謝來就文資修正"},{"start":5508.135,"end":5516.661,"text":"來 請修正一下那個主席 我覺得就照文字修正通過啦好我們等一下再來 他們修正最後再來檢視一次啦好 這樣才快啦好來 我們再來46條我們剛剛那條修正文字通過把你們文字給我拿來看看來"},{"start":5539.09,"end":5539.23,"text":"46號麥政委員來"},{"start":5548.822,"end":5571.093,"text":"46條是我們修的就是這46條的各版本雖然是希望認真真地補償被害人協助破案者得到的減刑但在具體要件仍有差異行政院版與部分委員的都採納就是自首後6個月內必須父親"},{"start":5574.695,"end":5596.467,"text":"調解與就是和解金時間比較僵硬也有部分版本是著重在就是犯罪所得的繳回或要求無條件的提存甚至就是說我們李彥秀委員的版本也要求就是說被害人可以和解門檻比較高"},{"start":5598.528,"end":5599.769,"text":"所以我們民眾黨這邊的版本主張更務實的是只要在第一審延遲辯論終結前完成調解或和解經病金額給付"},{"start":5614.877,"end":5616.96,"text":"就能適用減薪或免除不用限縮在6個月內這樣更符合實務的處理也能給被害人更多完整賠償的機會而不是再卡在那個程序的時間上也因此"},{"start":5634.119,"end":5637.581,"text":"我們認為我們的版本能兼顧幼嬰花彈性也更能促成實際賠償的結果如果會委員認同的話就讓我們被害人更快速獲得就是補償或讓制度更符合實務需求也請大家支持我們的版本 謝謝"},{"start":5657.535,"end":5670.589,"text":"來我們家徐玉珍委員謝謝主席本席所提出的第46條的修正當然第一個主要有兩個核心就是第一個要給減刑機會與實際的補償牢牢的綁在一起"},{"start":5673.772,"end":5698.522,"text":"而修正的條文要求自首者必須在自首之日起六個月支付與被害人達成調解或和解的全部金額為什麼要說六個月就是要設定就是為了防止拖延也避免有人一邊說悔改一邊說拖著不還讓被害在訴訟裡越等越久越等越絕望第二個當然就是詐騙大部分都是集團分工"},{"start":5699.142,"end":5710.386,"text":"所以底層的成員不一定握有金流而真正的詐騙集團的主腦如果可以我們往上追把錢追回來的機率也會變高所以我也爭定如果行為人能夠協助查獲發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺組織的人就能夠就使能夠扣押該組織取得的全部被害人財務或財產上的利益就得以免除其刑"},{"start":5726.312,"end":5745.718,"text":"这是希望用制度要求犯后要付出看得见的代价跟贡献才能够换到更有利的处理而且也可以追出比较高的这个追赃跟瓦解的效果也回应社会最迫切的期待那这就是本席这46条修正所提出的意见谢谢"},{"start":5748.158,"end":5769.659,"text":"來 我們輸僑會委員好 謝謝主席我想我們46和47條我先講46條的話其實我們就是在這個現行的條文實施之後發現本來會希望因為法條的設計而讓犯罪者交出他的犯罪所得也就是讓被害人可以儘速取得補償"},{"start":5770.78,"end":5792.577,"text":"結果當時的這個好意在實務執行上面卻反而產生了漏洞這樣的狀況所以這次大家都是希望來填補那如果在這樣的狀況之下其實剛剛大家講的一直都差不多我甚至我個人其實也有版本但我們現在來看行政院版本其實我覺得已經把各家的意見都已經吶喊進去包括說要追錢才可以錢追到了才可以"},{"start":5795.819,"end":5813.57,"text":"減輕其刑而且不是一定喔是可以考量而已得而已然後有期間然後有這個裁量空間所以我覺得那文字又比我們其他人的版本都簡潔所以其實我們我個人是覺得可以支持願版我也認為大家可以再看一下願版我們就願版通過這樣這樣是不是我們以願版提案通過"},{"start":5824.701,"end":5825.541,"text":"有再來47點4746 47兩條都是一樣只是一個自首 一個是偵查中這兩個不一樣像這個其實我跟喬惠妍我是也有提案但我再看了一下"},{"start":5846.866,"end":5858.697,"text":"其實行政院版也就是跟喬惠媛講的她都有把它納得更詳細的啦那我覺得46沒問題47應該也是照院版好 這樣47也照院版因為這個是我們提的啦就是說我們33委員也希望說要我們要幫她說明她提的那個為什麼啦"},{"start":5874.534,"end":5884.056,"text":"對所以他就是主要的是說自白後是否透過實際補償或協助協調作為減薪處罰的重要判斷的基準所以各版都有所以他在說採比較實務的做法就是在第一審言論辯論終結前只要就是說跟當才一樣只要是完成"},{"start":5901.879,"end":5928.805,"text":"調解或者是和解的金額給付所以我們真的是說可以是用減刑或除免避免就是固定啦固定這樣的時間影響就是實機應做他也沒有說要堅持但是他希望說如果是有彈性的話是更好就是希望大家就是可以再討論看看對"},{"start":5931.852,"end":5932.192,"text":"這樣我們就1億77條1億現金提案通過我們再來50條50條"},{"start":5965.554,"end":5972.939,"text":"50條有意見沒有意見我們就依行政院提案通過再來我們54條的"},{"start":5995.106,"end":5999.309,"text":"這樣我們54條就已經這樣我們54條的這條因為委員沒來跟我們沒討論跟這裡面850條裡面"},{"start":6035.029,"end":6057.523,"text":"我們在這請問附帶結議黃絕委員剛才很好給你看請蘇安部持續監督網路廣告平台業者要求參考國際做法加強接入義務跟建議去這裡設立在地客戶與協同防詐"},{"start":6062.748,"end":6064.909,"text":"黃姐OK 好"},{"start":6093.497,"end":6094.518,"text":"家安先讀協商結論"},{"start":6118.352,"end":6118.592,"text":"先讀協商結論"},{"start":6121.516,"end":6141.751,"text":"炸雞犯罪妨害防治條例部分修正條文草案第七條 第八條 第九條 第十條 第十一條 第十三條第四十二條 第四十三條 第四十六條 第四十七條 第五十條均照行政院提案通過"},{"start":6143.072,"end":6163.709,"text":"第30條不以修正第31條維持現行條文增訂第31條之一不以增訂第40條維持現行條文第44條修正文字通過第54條不以修正以上報告附帶決議一項通過附帶決議一項宣讀完畢"},{"start":6177.868,"end":6205.724,"text":"請問各位委員在剛才的協商結論通過請問有什麼異議沒有異議我們就通過以做以下決議討論屬行所內議案詐欺犯罪危害防治條例草案等35案以並案審查完畢"},{"start":6207.145,"end":6214.256,"text":"以據審查報告提包 願會討論請問在座各位委員有需要請當堂學生嗎不用喔"},{"start":6222.642,"end":6245.39,"text":"本案院委討論時 由本席王釗維代表補充說明審查通過之條文 條字引述條文部分文字及相關法制用於授權於主席及議事人員"},{"start":6246.809,"end":6266.8,"text":"整理本組的修正之條文行政機關如有補充立法說明會後請盡速送至內政委員會並納入審查報告討論此項所列的本來想說明天再繼續開業"},{"start":6275.451,"end":6283.537,"text":"不知道內政的好就這麼好明天再開不然我本來想明天再繼續來本組會議到現在結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":6301.835,"end":6303.336,"text":"主委謝謝 主委謝謝主委謝謝 主委謝謝"},{"start":6331.784,"end":6355.061,"text":"我們署長的來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":6358.933,"end":6374.796,"text":"要加油 加油 加油"},{"start":6389.121,"end":6408.073,"text":"來,我們來,這一張來,不懂嗎?來這邊,看這邊有,有"}]}},{"id":"166486","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166486","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd024c472fc75b1d6dba3419a5287f8f915486d4848cd7fb6f3dd6b1f49ba06ce335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:27:25 - 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餘裕的資金35兆"},{"start":45.439,"end":72.233,"text":"結果這些受險業者把70% 25兆拿到海外去買債券基金這有兩大風險一個戰爭 一個匯率結果這兩件事我們都碰到了戰爭碰到俄國戰爭所以他們遲緩急付匯率今年4月在跟美國對談關稅的時候那時候我們匯率被迫台幣大漲一陣子"},{"start":73.374,"end":81.002,"text":"那這都對我們台灣是不利的因為畢竟我們是出口為導向的國家所以當時我去年就要求說我們應該把受險業這些資金"},{"start":86.243,"end":103.035,"text":"把他引進回我們台灣參與我們台灣我們的國家建設這對我們國家才是正面的而且行政院長上任第一次行政報告的時候他就說他就說要打造我們台灣成為亞"},{"start":105.566,"end":132.859,"text":"州資產管理中心那如果我們要管理其他國家的資產那我們自己70%的錢去給別人管理這不是很怪嗎那當然結果你們也確實部長你確實很積極去推動我希望你去推動就這個建設公債交通公債跟各部位商量去做這些那除了這些以外我這幾天剛好"},{"start":134.98,"end":146.135,"text":"無巧不巧的有聽到幾位這大型的受刑業者他們共同的講法是這樣他說委員我們不是不回來我們現在要回來"},{"start":147.455,"end":166.457,"text":"但是碰到財政部要求的是說都只能投入公共建設那我是希望說公共建設大家把定義講清楚不一定是政府全部都是政府出資的那個才叫公共建設比方說我們有BOT案"},{"start":167.478,"end":194.283,"text":"我們有蔣餐條例我們有促餐法我們有大眾捷運法大眾捷運法這個捷運的聯合開發這些都是正面的嘛這些都廣義的是公共工程公共建設對我們政府是正面的還有我們長照啊還有我們青年住宅社會住宅這些那也不僅止於VOT"},{"start":195.356,"end":211.535,"text":"BOO啦 ROT啦 OT啦太多這樣子的案子都是會幫助我們整個國家社會建設長足進步嘛所以部長我今天跟你提的意思就是說是不是"},{"start":213.803,"end":232.744,"text":"你們要明列正式的明列出正面舉例有哪一些是要讓受險業資金回來哪一些是我們國家政府核准的而且你們要積極主動的跟他們聯繫"},{"start":234.306,"end":249.716,"text":"因為他們現在準備好了這一次4月5月踢到鐵板這個匯率的事情然後現在這些業者我們往好處看他們也正是要感受到政府號召他們"},{"start":250.339,"end":263.822,"text":"的誠意以及他們對於建設我們自己國內他們應該投入這些來自我們保險戶的資金那這是正確的事情好不好你能不能做到"},{"start":265.243,"end":274.527,"text":"謝謝委員確實是我們希望我們的受寫業資金能夠回我們國內來投資所謂的公共建設那這個公共建設除了促參法還有獎參條例還有其他譬如說大捷法或者是商港法都算是民間投資這個部分我們都把廣義的時候算進來那如果說我們促參法裡面有所謂公共建設的項目"},{"start":290.953,"end":313.686,"text":"細則裡面有所謂的細目那如果說需要再擴充的話我覺得我們也很歡迎搜寫業提出來我們可以在細則裡面把它做更詳細的一個規定那另外也跟委員報告除了公共建設之外公共建設方式上有您剛剛所說BOT ROT BOO等等都算在我們的促參裡面還有一個它如果不是在所謂的公共建設範圍裡面但是它回來投資是對國內的基礎建設有幫助的"},{"start":318.348,"end":326.714,"text":"不見得是政府的 而是私人他們要做的譬如說物流中心的話是不是也可以適用相關的我們兆元投資方案裡面可這樣做而且金管會會在有關投資相關的一些規定上會給予比較放鬆 比較鬆的規定那這個部分在我們兆元投資方案裡面開會以後都有放寬"},{"start":341.204,"end":347.347,"text":"第一個他回來除了公建之外基礎建設的部分不屬於公部門的部分也一樣可以來投資那投資的時候對於有關金融法規對於受險業資金投資的一些相關的一些所謂的一個他要提撥的一些比例準備金的比例那儘管會也都有做彈性的一些調整目的就希望這些資金回台灣來投資我想這個委員這樣的一個建議"},{"start":365.436,"end":387.242,"text":"是我們一直都在努力的方向如果還有不足的部分我們也歡迎壽險業可以在我們的推動小組裡面有一個行政院推動小組財政部我們還有另外一個出餐的一個另外一個推動小組都可以提出建議我們都可以把它放進來在法規的鬆板還有案源的擴充方面都可以做這個調整我想這個是一個很好的一個方向"},{"start":387.912,"end":406.034,"text":"好那我這是難得我們這一年多來你的答詢裡面答得我覺得比較完整正確的啦你講這些都很正面我希望說更進一步因為金管會我知道他跟你們跟中央銀行"},{"start":406.815,"end":427.768,"text":"你們這三者是共同來制定比方說他資金回來的期程總是不能一次回來一次回來這影響到匯率分拿幾次這樣子回來他隨便回來個一兩%一兩個%就兩三千億到五千億三五個%就一兆多了"},{"start":428.388,"end":446.345,"text":"那我們是希望他能夠分梯次那這樣子三五千例這樣回來一年內回來個一兆多這對我們國內是很大的挹注那所以這個部分我為什麼特別跟你提我希望是由你們主動也跟這幾家"},{"start":447.566,"end":475.623,"text":"因為比較大型的就這幾家金額最大的大概你們大概都知道哪幾家受選像中信富邦這一些那麼我們恨不得逮住他們讓他們趕快回來所以就正式的跟他們這個洽詢之後跟他們建立一個管道讓他們隨時可以溝通那這樣子就沒有再任何的理由他們不回來好不好"},{"start":477.034,"end":497.479,"text":"中安民囊的部分當然我另外質詢會跟他們提他們要列一個期程怎麼樣不影響到對我們台幣這個匯率的影響把它降到最低我們會多聽取這樣的一個意見然後來把它放到兆元投資方案裡面來做落實好 另外一個問題是新青安這個不動產聯盟"},{"start":502.245,"end":510.188,"text":"上上禮拜的事而已他12月8號發表就是說要批評政府啦說批評政府這個政策過蕩啦導致我這個政策殃及無辜害不動產停滯他12月8號提出批評12月10號我們財政部就回應啦回應說我們會再推出新青安2.0"},{"start":526.693,"end":542.043,"text":"那這時間上我知道可能是巧合時間上可能是巧合可是我們要推出新金安2.0變成財政部已經明說了就是會推新金安2.0但是我就請問第一點我們過去"},{"start":544.086,"end":571.474,"text":"舊的 清安的這一個部分對於這三無沒有年齡限制沒有首購限制沒有收入限制這個部分我們的改革方法是什麼有沒有改革沒有年收入的限制光是年收400萬以上就3000多件就3000多件所以這些改革方法解決了嗎解決這三無了嗎"},{"start":573.127,"end":578.151,"text":"報告新清安的實施期限到明年的7月30那目前來說沒有所謂的新清安2.0但是我們會聽取各界的意見在明年7月底之前後續要怎麼樣處理我們會提出方案那這個部分呢我們在聽取各界意見包含房地產市場的一個趨勢金融市場"},{"start":592.242,"end":621.14,"text":"以及民众的需求以及住宅政策等等都会纳入我们考量的一个因素那委员这样的刚刚对于三项的一些建议要不要纳入考量也都是会放进里面我们会来做评估的那个光是内政部他也持不同的意见内政部他表态他认为新清安会推升房价不宜扩大那这一个他的这个说法就跟我们财政部有所不同所以你认为呢"},{"start":622.182,"end":650.041,"text":"他内政部要求的是说不要再配合新兴安加码补贴利息那你们有跟他沟通过吗对于内政部当然他先表达他的意见那我们也还会遵循其他部会的相关的意见以及整体会来做一个政策性的说明到时候我们会在七月底之前一定会再要什么样的推动会来做后续的说明那个就在三天前"},{"start":651.528,"end":670.989,"text":"報紙又說我們財政部認了說是央行打太兇所以稅收短缺這是事實嗎不是事實我也從來沒有這樣表示過我也看到這個標題但是我也仔細看了內部的內容毫無提到說我有說了什麼只是標題這樣下標題他就這麼寫"},{"start":673.431,"end":699.626,"text":"他就標題這麼寫 然後他後面又寫了一個問號我也不知道這個是怎麼加上去的所以 沈部長不管他後面是驚嘆號是問號是又驚嘆又問號結論就是說只要有跟我們部裡的政策跟你所講過的話有違背甚至完全你沒說的那這會打到其他部會的你一定要跟媒體要求更正好不好"},{"start":699.986,"end":703.536,"text":"好的謝謝這個部分我們來加強的是謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166485","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166485","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0bb08d9715cf667e5212f972bfaabac2c486d4848cd7fb6f3cf300a208d967c955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:24:01 - 11:34:45","影片長度":"00:10:44","會議時間":"2025-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22 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主席有請我們國安局蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 林委員早局長好今天我們當然是針對台海周邊包括我們的整個軍事的衝突來做分析但是我想有關於國防的部分現場當然有國防部以及我們這些將領在做維護"},{"start":28.149,"end":43.48,"text":"但是呢我個人比較關注的還是對於我們台灣所所有的國民所面對的其他另外一種在心理上面的安全性的部分來跟您就教我知道在這之前包括我們在"},{"start":44.981,"end":65.638,"text":"國防外交委員會也通過了就是有關於沈博洋委員受到中國以這種所謂長臂管轄的方式來限制他甚至於讓他在出國的時候感到壓力那麼我們也知道這個蕭美琴副總統在捷克的時候也曾經遭到中國的跟監那麼根據現在一個最新的報導指出"},{"start":67.179,"end":81.209,"text":"在中國的所謂天網籠罩台日嗎那麼就是說現在國台辦利用所謂學者或者是研究等等放置了一些所謂相關的情報人員在他們的駐外館那麼從國台辦的人派到這個他們中國的外館然後對台商"},{"start":88.795,"end":104.882,"text":"留學生以及我們的僑民甚至於觀光客來做所謂的監控甚至於這樣的長臂管轄會造成一些騷擾那麼這篇報導的內容是不是屬實而國安局是不是真的有掌握這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":106.56,"end":124.389,"text":"這部分跟委員說明一下那中共他在駐外管處他有時候確實會部署一些國台辦系統或處理涉台事務的相關的人員到駐外管處去那以委員剛剛所提到的這個特定的國家來講我們長期在注意至少有兩名到四名"},{"start":125.289,"end":142.521,"text":"這樣子的工作背景的一個人員那所謂這樣的特定的國家而且有中國的這個駐外管員監控我們的國民不是特定的像我剛剛提到的都是政治人物喔只是一般的國民這樣的國家有幾個甚至於可不可以講出來到底有哪些國家"},{"start":143.782,"end":171.112,"text":"這個可能沒有辦法全部把它講出來會變成是我們到底掌握的相關的狀況就會被對岸了解不過跟委員特別強調的是委員的關注應該是在於說中共這些派駐海外的涉台人員會不會有對我們的橋界進行一些騷擾、分化的活動或是對於我們跟朱棣國政府一些官方、非官方的往來會進行一些相關的動作這部分我們會注意另外"},{"start":171.832,"end":190.878,"text":"也跟委員說明是我們跟駐地國的相關單位也都有親自的交流好 所以言下之意就是說因為當不只是政治人物而包括台商 留學生甚至於台灣的觀光客到某些特定的國家的時候需不需要擔心他們的安危我想其實對於一般民眾來講他所擔憂的是這個部分"},{"start":194.358,"end":221.229,"text":"安全的部分我覺得應該還好啦主要是因為這些我們所謂的特定國家基本上有很多都是民主法治的國家那假如中共的人員在當地有一些違法的動作的話那當然當地的警政或相關的治安機構也不容許中共的駐外人員違反一般駐外人員的一個相關的一個規範來做這樣的一個威脅或脅迫我指的是人身安全的那第二個假如中國要透過的所謂"},{"start":222.249,"end":238.938,"text":"這種跨境管轄包括委員提到的對沈伯陽委員這種要發布所謂的紅色的通緝令的話那在執行上事實上也不容易因為Interpol裡面它本來就有一個法律專家小組會針對各國所提出的這些通報進行相關的審查"},{"start":239.838,"end":259.268,"text":"而怎麼樣來避免不同的國家利用這種通報來打壓國內的異議人士一直是法律專家審查小組的審查重點那我們也有透過相關管道來了解那中國有沒有在Interpol的系統當中去做這樣的小動作那有的話我們的友好國家相關的對口都會跟我們提出相關的警示那我們會做"},{"start":259.928,"end":277.577,"text":"因為在這一篇報導當中有特別提到點出了曼谷也就是泰國言下之意就是提到說有一些東南亞國家真的跟中國的關係比較好的時候那麼協助中國做這種所謂的長臂管轄或是跨境鎮壓的機會要來得比較高那麼真的是如此嗎"},{"start":278.597,"end":293.412,"text":"有一些確實要注意啦那這個部分也有跟相關業管單位這主要是外交部來看這個部分怎麼樣來跟國人做一個示警那這部分還在內部作業那假如有比較清楚的一個規劃可能到時候再跟委員做一些報告"},{"start":293.712,"end":306.833,"text":"好 另外一個就是我不知道國安局最近有沒有注意到一個狀況那就是過去我們在講錯假訊息但是如果說現在是不是研發出另外一種新的模式叫做惡意訊息"},{"start":309.396,"end":315.017,"text":"最近我看到網路上非常多就是說以現有的事實來做惡意的包裝比如說像現在我舉例的這個是一個我們的交通的罰則啦但是這個罰則法定在那裡但是其實幾乎我們所有的交通警察沒有來執行過就是你閃綠燈的時候如果你惡意的去闖這個馬路其實是罰500塊"},{"start":335.262,"end":348.356,"text":"但是其實法定在那裡我必須講這個法還是立法院立的法但是一般的警察單位沒有特別去執行但是現在突然間在網路上在社群媒體上流竄有這樣的訊息而且說賴清德"},{"start":351.459,"end":366.771,"text":"為了要連任總統所以怎麼樣怎麼樣這個就是一種現在被稱為另外的一種所謂惡意訊息要帶風向的傳播那麼這個算不算是另外一種進階版的灰色作戰那麼國安局有注意到這個狀況嗎因為這個訊息喔他是這樣他在法規上確實存在"},{"start":372.555,"end":391.911,"text":"但是呢他想要引發的是恐慌所以當你去跟社群平台檢舉的時候他無法下架就像現在很多包括我個人在內有許多的這種所謂不雅的照的AI的影片當我個人本人去檢舉的時候他跟我說委員這個只是用了你的臉"},{"start":393.872,"end":421.287,"text":"那其他的部分不是你的時候我們其實要經過一些審核所以這種的惡意訊息現在開始進行流竄的時候請問國安局有沒有注意到這個狀況那這個狀況如果身為這個國安上面會引發民眾的不安的時候尤其是這個是引發的是民眾對於這樣的惡意訊息感到不安的時候又帶有一點爭執時性又無法在社群平台做處理的時候國安局是不是有注意到"},{"start":422.687,"end":437.995,"text":"跟委員說明一下這部分的狀況我們有注意到以前在委員會的討論當中有跟委員們做過報告網路上的爭議訊息非常的多但是由本局來出面處理的我們大概會聚焦在比較有涉及到國安層次的爭議訊息"},{"start":439.015,"end":458.73,"text":"這包括到污衊元首或是威脅要傷害元首或是相關的正義訊息在傳承錯假的戰爭資訊造成民眾恐慌或是在疫病重大災難的時候去錯假訊息的散佈去造成一些動盪這部分我們會介入委員剛剛講到的這個我們會注意的原因是它確實你要去"},{"start":459.591,"end":484.791,"text":"通報到司法警察機關來要求平台業者下架那個法律要件他變得是不太充足因為你要請平台業者下架或是要去請平台業者提供我們司法警察機關相關的IP位置跟使用者的身份的話我們必須要有法律的依據那委員局的例子他大概就是在散佈他的一些想法故意用到總統的名稱來吸引大家的注意他又還沒有到污衊"},{"start":485.532,"end":510.667,"text":"但是又有點在做一些渲染所以這樣的樣態我們會持續注意那也會透過我們跟平台業者也有一些溝通管道來把這些新的樣態跟平台業者來做說明那尤其明年又有國內的大型選舉假如沒有事先有個機制的話我們也很擔心到時候一個案子一個案子被動來處理的話我們的整個國安情報機關這個網絡我們承受的業務壓力會很大那也謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":511.007,"end":535.984,"text":"好因為我特別提到的是因為現在沒有選舉所以他當然就把這個目標鎖定在我們的總統也就是我們國家的元首但是就如你所說接下來選舉來的時候這樣的方法也可以如法炮製那麼這個部分他就會影響到選舉的公平性這樣的做法我必須講雖然說我自己是民進黨立法委員但是在地方政府當中也有很多非"},{"start":536.724,"end":557.011,"text":"民進黨籍其實任何黨籍的這個所謂的地方行政首長也可以用這個方法來做如法炮製但是我個人所關注的是說這個一旦這樣的方法下去之後他會影響到的是我們整體國家內部的安定性那麼如果他真的被國安局現在已經視為是一個就是可能的"},{"start":557.571,"end":583.797,"text":"灰色地帶的騷擾的另外一種形式因為我會發現這些影片拍出來他的手法一致方法一致甚至於他在同樣一個時間的大範圍的去做散播那這樣的過程如果你去點選這些散播的人他的不論是粉絲團或者是他個人的使用帳號的時候你會發現點進去他不一定是台灣人甚至於像現在很多的社群媒體點進去的時候你可以去查他"},{"start":585.237,"end":605.371,"text":"在發文或者是登記的地方也非台灣有有對那像這種的話我知道對於國安局來講這個部分不容易但是也就是因為是灰色地帶所以不容易所以我也就提醒國安局在這個部分必須要在有一些而且是跨部會之間可能不只是只有國安局"},{"start":605.791,"end":624.062,"text":"要跟畫布會來做一個整合跟討論跟平台業者一直有透過不同的管道在溝通啦那鄭如委員剛剛也正確的觀察到那像X平台跟Twitch他們現在都會去揭露貼文者的所在的位置這是新的最近才有的一個動作那我覺得這樣的趨勢透明化的趨勢是對的我們持續來溝通"},{"start":624.622,"end":641.877,"text":"好 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我們這個部分也持續經濟各位報告"},{"start":100.683,"end":105.606,"text":"我為了要問的是下一題因為你們說啤酒原料降稅有百利而無一害當然我們很希望是這樣子因為我們主張將進口的啤酒花免除進口關稅可以降低我們國產啤酒的生產成本有助於跟進口啤酒競爭對不對而且就你們報告而且你們估計稅損是大概不到7500萬但是由於"},{"start":125.218,"end":135.98,"text":"我們的國產啤酒市場經驗提高我們的需求成長可以增加一億快七千萬的一億七千萬的這個收入所以綜合起來也快多了快一億是不是這樣嗎"},{"start":137.489,"end":166.548,"text":"所以你们是基于这个理由我们的税市支出评估以后大概的结果是怎样我支持也希望你们的预测是准的往下看那可是呢我们过去啊在过去这一整年当中你看我们财委会做了几次的事情就是关于在六月我们就考察海关房请销房息产地我们开了两次记者会要求财政部赶快开支临时的返清销税还告诉你中国啤酒的市占率超过台湾的啤酒了是不是这样子"},{"start":167.469,"end":176.634,"text":"而且最重要的原因是怎樣很多民眾以為這些來自中國的啤酒是美國的品牌或日本的品牌甚至是冒充以為是台灣國產的有沒有這樣的情況因為它在標籤上做了一些混帽那我們看到了結果財政部在首次對於中國的啤酒和鋼品我們對它進行反傾銷而且還動用了回溯條款史無前例過去財政部沒有這樣做"},{"start":194.209,"end":203.992,"text":"好所以這個破例我們支持他往下看所以呢但是問題是怎樣不是只有台灣啊中國的低價傾銷全世界啊現在中國的內需疲軟之下他的高價的茅台賣不動民生的啤酒呢也賣不多但是中國的啤酒產能又過剩不只啤酒啊這些東西傾銷全國什麼鋼鐵水泥光電板服飾化工製品包括啤酒在內這是不是受到台灣目前的國內市場受到"},{"start":222.839,"end":224.107,"text":"全世界都受到中國低價傾銷的影響"},{"start":226.742,"end":252.39,"text":"確實有79件嘛在今年的上半年中國的低價傾銷讓全世界有79件的一個反傾銷的調查是好那我們看一下往下看所以我們來看一下在我們國內有反傾銷稅跟平衡稅對不對那這兩個辦法是不是都要業者受損的業者來提出像鋼品的部分是中鋼提出然後產業代表性的業者才能提出平衡稅原則上是這樣對沒錯那你覺得這樣會不會"},{"start":255.171,"end":258.573,"text":"不夠快能夠有效的監控或及時的展開調查嗎我們關務組在受理後都會用一定的時間裡面因為在這個相關的辦法裡面都有實現的我們跟經濟部會一起來做相關的調查的我之所以今天要問這個問題不是重提往事而是我過去這將近一年來我們為了這兩件事情 鋼品跟啤酒"},{"start":279.528,"end":294.348,"text":"一直在敦促要要求財政部要積極但是財政部有既定的程序要跑因為你們法規就這樣規定所以要業者提出業者還有具有代表性的提出後你們還要進行調查然後業者送資料基本上財政部的態度就是業者你送資料來我會"},{"start":295.589,"end":317.475,"text":"公平公允的來處理是不是這樣是的但是我們來看一下美國怎麼做美國他可以直接由主管機關展開反傾銷稅的調查這在美國平衡稅及反傾銷稅相關規章的第一篇之第二章他就寫了說主管機關可以依據手上的資料來認為正式調查方主與確認應主動展開反傾銷稅的調查請問財政部中華民國財政部會認同或認可美國的這樣做法嗎"},{"start":325.54,"end":325.962,"text":"那你認為呢在台灣我們這樣來做適不適當"},{"start":330.389,"end":355.743,"text":"當然在我們中華民國的法規制度之下我們也是可以根據職權來做的你們也是有法規不動的情況你們還是可以根據職權主動調查還是要我們立法院修法你才能主動調查不需要所以說未來如果再有類似的情況發生我們要求財政部主動進行平衡稅或反傾銷稅的調查財政部可不可以拿出破例主動來進行可以嗎"},{"start":356.503,"end":365.029,"text":"我想這個可能不是只是有財政部可能也要跟貨品主管機關一起來合作 經濟部等等其實這次經濟部跟你們配合的算不錯啦好 我們再往下看但是現在有一個漏洞有國民黨的立委提出一個離島自由貿易示範區陳玉珍委員提出了離島建設條例增訂第18條之一"},{"start":378.658,"end":404.498,"text":"他說怎樣 他說離島的縣政府喔可以在指定的區域設立一個自由貿易區喔示範區喔 而且他管理辦法呢離島的縣政府就自治條例定制欸財政部有沒有看到這個條例啊這樣的話你們的財政部對於國家海關統進統出中華民國財政部來管理的情況就被地方政府自治條例給突破了你們有什麼看法"},{"start":407.043,"end":432.593,"text":"來 署長趕快說報告委員這是由交通部主管的一個法規這是交通部主導的一個法規那我們有參與相關的會議我當然不是問你交通部啊我是問你財政部看到這樣的條例你心裡怎麼想你的反傾銷稅平衡稅你們有職權現在呢 離島建制政府可以自己提那自己提之後呢你財政部他說自由貿易啊財政部可以接受嗎"},{"start":434.266,"end":454.537,"text":"當然這個自貿港區到底要不要準到設置這我財政部也沒有權可以置會沒有權可以置會會不會影響到你的財政的權利影響到你官務的自主權利會影響到來自中國的產品稀采的情況會不會有只要他設立了這個自貿港區的話我們都要配合執行"},{"start":455.532,"end":481.332,"text":"所以說啊 立法院通過這個條文呢對財政部影響很大對國內業者未來面臨到來自中國的傾銷能不能提出反傾銷 反洗產地你看過去發生了一個權爭瑜伽民團啊 民間團體抗議中資惡意掏空啊我們看到台積電也是因為有一個低調科技廠被中國收購這些都有國安跟治安的問題往往下看來"},{"start":482.873,"end":506.348,"text":"部長請問這兩個你知道哪一個是台灣的職棒隊的LOGO嗎哪一個是這是什麼這是兄弟像對不對中信兄弟啊中信兄弟像對不對對啊前不久鬧雙胞嘛有個上海兄弟單單為了這個台灣的窮民快氣炸了職棒是台灣非常重要國人非常重要的一個競爭象徵結果呢你看"},{"start":507.202,"end":521.905,"text":"中國啤酒他用台灣的在地文化來混沖中國啤酒他跟日本美國的知名品牌合作然後呢另外創了一個品牌讓台灣的消費者以為這是該日本跟美國的品牌有沒有這樣的情況"},{"start":526.337,"end":546.82,"text":"所以說如果未來金門的酒廠他叫台灣金酒他跟中國中資合作然後呢以後從跟中資合作的公司出的酒也叫做金酒來自於中國的酒來到金門之後掛成另外一個像兄弟的這樣logo他就說這是金門酒廠出品的財政部你要怎麼因應有沒有想過這個問題"},{"start":552.16,"end":579.559,"text":"這個部分就如同剛剛那個啤酒一樣其實是我們應該要特別注意你管得到金酒公司嗎金酒公司你可以管得到嗎金酒公司它如果是屬於酒類的主管機關那當然金酒主管機關的是在財政部那你可以管到金酒公司那它事業的主管機關是在金門中資要跟金酒公司合資成另外一個公司就像上海兄弟一樣你管得到嗎那個是公司法裡面對你管不到嘛那它這個合資公司"},{"start":580.279,"end":590.015,"text":"金酒公司跟中國資本合作的公司掛金酒出來的產品妳管得到嗎妳可以說它洗產地嗎妳知道是中國生產的酒要跟它課稅嗎"},{"start":591.075,"end":619.401,"text":"这个部分可能要特别注意一下我要请你特别的想一想这个非常的严重这个状况已经潜在了所以我们看到的中国啤酒大量的用其他混冒美日的知名品牌或者混冲台湾的产地让台湾消费者误导未来就算自贸区那个条例没有通过有可能金酒公司跟中国合资后成立一个品牌挂着金门酒厂的名字从中国产品直接拿到台湾来"},{"start":619.841,"end":640.368,"text":"你有辦法對他進行反請要的調查嗎是啊 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卫照 海图 航图武器sensor的图全部套叠上去对我们内部长官的判别就有一个清楚的方法"},{"start":145.396,"end":171.19,"text":"所以我一直在强调JCOP共同图像刚才讲的是战略共同图像战术图像火邪的图像那刚才讲的如果去中心化分散配置授权这个涉及到武装冲突法他的承担责任那就是长官将来ROE里面要背书同时这个东西要去纳入"},{"start":172.571,"end":196.344,"text":"国防大学子餐教育因为你的子餐教育没有教这个你叫连三讲交联二讲这是没有用的所以所有的图像必须要精准交叉比对我相信这个目前因为国军啊士林营场也没有做这个东西陆军有没有这个力那个海军是不是能够协助解释我们如何能够提供共同图像"},{"start":207.44,"end":234.675,"text":"海軍參謀長報告那目前我們大氣局有負責的相關因為我們整個的GPS系統有分六拐跟八四的WGS在這些坐標校正那我們目前大氣局跟內政部還有各部會所需要的圖資包括我們三軍也會在我們勤制式的這個整合下後面我們大氣局可以協助做這個相關的圖資的校正然後跟相關圖資的可以校正完之後怎麼來"},{"start":235.655,"end":262.143,"text":"回到這個整個COP裡面後面我們會提供必要的協助我特別要強調因為到現在我們的陸軍啊作戰區還是用UTM坐標圖 紙本的圖那它跟海空軍的圖完全不能夠比對那即使去中心化你的授權跨部隊的橫向協調沒有共同圖像這是非常高的風險但誠如部長講的如果只是自衛而不是反擊"},{"start":263.311,"end":287.443,"text":"那这个授权是没有关系的你现在的海马斯已经是全部素面化将来的滨海作战指挥部机动鱼叉这两个单位是没有办法沟通的因为通讯装备只管不同所以去中心化只是针对各单位做自我防卫的一个火力开放而不是反击这些定位要清楚这些东西如果不在武装冲突法"},{"start":288.747,"end":301.359,"text":"海上这些法律的在我们的国防大学法律系或者职参教育先去定位清楚变成我们未来的指挥官的一个教学的话只要人一定要拆这个就去掉了"},{"start":302.133,"end":319.447,"text":"美軍的DEFCON THREATCOM INFOCOM他都有交叉比對雖然我們現在是兩階段三個不同的方法你提升戰備到應急戰備那這個當然有中心啊不可能中心一夜被摧毀不然我們未來台灣之盾整個concept就被毀掉了所以"},{"start":321.325,"end":349.24,"text":"台湾之盾就是一个完整的网络结构如果这个地方去掉了其他可以补足但绝对不是直线的这个授权往下走我们再看下一张图这张图是海图周遭的东西可是呢台湾滩在哪里我们国安局的报告台湾滩是四亿那至于啊从平潭岛到厦门岛他执行海上这个搜救任务"},{"start":350.431,"end":373.465,"text":"占便宜吃豆腐利用台湾这个名称启扰我们的影响我们的民心士气但是有图一出来清楚解释那这种图在国安局没有国防部也没有因为这是大海区可以协助航图海图路图做校正套叠这个叫做共同图像而不是一个概念性的解释共同图像各位看这个图"},{"start":378.083,"end":402.471,"text":"這張圖是大的衛星照片根據國際民航組織的圖所有的空軍 中共的訓練空域我們的訓練空域全部要標上去因為你不能影響民航機的飛行那從這個圖像你看到一個大範圍這個時候再根據我們國防部每天公布的這個圖套疊上去"},{"start":403.362,"end":425.978,"text":"请问长官这样子是不是你对周遭的战略态势可以有一个更客观的判断所以说绝对不是用一张图必须用套叠我们国防部也很辛苦每天公布攻击绕台绕台但是你有没有把其他的训练空域标注出来目前没有这个可以努力可以精进我是肯定"},{"start":426.843,"end":449.856,"text":"那比方讲南海的图周遭的图整个的状况全部在我们国安团队跟国安局要能够分享我希望海军在图的方面因为你们有GIS做校正的能力401厂只是列印把这个图这个能力分享让长官有一个大格局宏观的看法特别讲到这个"},{"start":456.849,"end":478.007,"text":"中共在南海跟菲律宾的问题我特别要强调有关在黄岩岛也就是民主交的中共跟菲律宾因为执法潜在的冲突但是我提过外交部讲根据我们内支部领海法这是我们的主权范围即使你现在没有派人管即使是一个小交群"},{"start":479.192,"end":506.137,"text":"但这不是菲律宾的权益也不是中共的权益我们的立场要说明因为内政部的领海公布里面在这里面至于刚刚讲的下面的这个什么仁爱交啊先兵交大家只是概念根本不知道在哪里所以我们要把图像做出来然后在跨部会的协商的时候大家才知道这个影响是什么哪些是我们的国家权益哪些是民主的价值这两个不是同步的"},{"start":506.917,"end":519.575,"text":"那现在我特别要提到我们都谈美国的国家安全战略日本的国家安全战略因为这么多年来我们没有我们版本的国家安全战略并不是军事战略所以对"},{"start":520.942,"end":547.216,"text":"陸委會海委會內政部能源經濟醫療體系我們純粹使用軍事講所以說有沒有軍事衝突他是有戰略預警的並不是純軍事上剛才部長講的是一個小規模的衝突但不是全面犯台全面犯台的作戰計畫我想聯二我們大家知道反向預算不管是能源要準備醫療體系要準備儲油要準備甚至外匯存底黃金都會有變動所以"},{"start":548.877,"end":572.519,"text":"一定要有自己的国家安全战略才有的国家利益核心目标这个时候军事的从上到下从下到上的支撑才是完整的那同样美国的国家安全战略出来国防战略 军事战略 印太战略包括它的美国的国务院 国防部"},{"start":573.393,"end":602.303,"text":"中情局甚至国会他都有专案小组他的资讯分解分享就是刚才局长讲的跨部会要有一个完整的资讯分享立场不同责任不同但是核心利益要怎么样做化解出来这个就是告诉我们现在我们缺乏的是什么我们没有国家安全战略我们今年出了这个四年期国防总检讨比起上一个版本有进步从48页"},{"start":604.192,"end":633.434,"text":"变到59页国防战略从1页半变到4页那我们刚出来的国防战略就是白皮书啊2025年的从183页变到189页内容啊从4页变到6页我们是在进步但是跟周边的国家相比啊我们落后很多为什么呢因为没有一个国家安全战略做总指导所以纯粹用国防部的立场来看"},{"start":634.761,"end":660.748,"text":"是不够周延的诚如刚才第一个我们执政党的委员讲说我们在杯葛在程序委员会我向大家回应如果执政党在野党的总召跟他的书记长能够在开程序委员会之前先做沟通了解观念就不是在程序委员会投票未反对觉得反对"},{"start":663.802,"end":686.901,"text":"請問這個1.25兆裡面在國內增加國內的實力佔比佔有多少五分之一 四分之一這個站會市長委員問的是實力還是自主我們講的這個1.25兆投資在國內的百分比佔多少投資在國內"},{"start":689.938,"end":704.413,"text":"這個部分我們還要等到我們軍售案的額度確認之後才有辦法去計算我們國內的佔比但是基本上國內的佔比會佔相當大的部分你講的是一個很好的理念"},{"start":705.745,"end":734.646,"text":"军售案商售案军售融资总统特别授权法案这四个案子的特别比例搞不清楚那国内就不知道1.25兆是投资但是并不是life cycle support如果你算它的受限受期的维保可能再加2.5兆这个是不在这里面的你1.25兆的建立的是能力并不是量能所以在野党跟执政党是需要做沟通我当然支持我觉得你还不够"},{"start":735.475,"end":744.508,"text":"你的人才培养你的后勤为宝你这些东西都不在里面了你现在看到只是装备而且美国的厂商看到商机很好大家都来"},{"start":747.096,"end":772.464,"text":"表达诚意啊但是很多东西框架上只是在那边细节他也讲不出来啊所以我们提出的建言是什么希望能够努力的执行朝正确方案走我当然支持我还觉得你应该增加了因为你要把后勤为保的life cycle授其成本全部放进去不是只是硬体投资啊所以从这个图看完了以后我们看这张图因为没有国家安全战略"},{"start":773.72,"end":790.089,"text":"所以呢我们只是从纯军事的着眼那友邦呢我们是去看他的我自己的战略意味跟我的核心价值不是去读美国读日本的国家安全战略请问我们政府能不能在国防部国安局"},{"start":791.124,"end":805.994,"text":"陆委会内政部所有部会共同努力下希望在这个政府的任期内推出我们的官方版的国家安全战略这样你的有盟才能定义你的核心价值如果这样子看各位看我们有很多大的缺口"},{"start":806.855,"end":823.637,"text":"这是努力不够不是各位努力不够是团队的整合不够所以我再次提出来光读别人的国家安全战略而没有产生中华民国官方版的国安战略这有很大的一个落差也就是说你1.25兆的诚意很好"},{"start":824.383,"end":845.283,"text":"那一方面讲2030年GDP5%但是1.5呢北造北约是属于社会韧性那在这个1.25到8年的期程里面的那为什么不能在本国的产业能力而是要等美国发架完了才剩下的给我们那你要做一个公平的分配嘛"},{"start":846.702,"end":865.88,"text":"報告委員 這個要跟委員報告一下我們在這一次的防衛任性跟不對稱戰力的特別預算裡面我們是一個有計畫性的規劃中間我們會有引進很多新興戰力那這些部分我們都希望落地生產落地建立能量但這個能量不是一天可以建得起來的"},{"start":866.3,"end":879.154,"text":"所以在這個部分我們除了在特別預算裡面奠定了基礎之外我們也會在後續的年度公務預算裡面去編列讓國內的產業能夠逐漸的成長起來去建立我們國內的量能"},{"start":880.117,"end":900.476,"text":"你这个讲得很好也就是说年度预算跟八年每一年这中间的关系的勾迹那你们请提书面报告我们会支持但是并不是成如第一个这个冯委员讲的为反对而反对因为你根本没有在执政党跟在野党的"},{"start":901.657,"end":925.702,"text":"我們講的 黨編啊 召委啊 你根本沒有做溝通 而不是進了會場用投票我們沒有機會跟他溝通啊 我問他也講不出來啊他們哪一個懂細節 他誰懂軍售過程 誰懂DCS那DCS既然有 為什麼不能夠我們的貿易談判代表去抵消我們對美國的貿易順差DCS還包括計轉啊 工合啊 為什麼都不談"},{"start":926.542,"end":946.18,"text":"那既然FMF军售融资我们已经编了预算我要你贷款但是我可以给你给你东西现在又不给了总统特别授权法案是可以给啊但给的是旧装备啊后续的料配件你要花钱买这些东西执政党的同仁在本会委员会里面他根本搞不清楚啊我的建议是拉高沟通成绩"},{"start":946.38,"end":970.898,"text":"我们当然支持持续性的国防成长尤其是国家安全战略我们强烈建议务必在这个政府任内推出官方版的国安战略不要光看别人的你自己连我们自己的自传都没有去看别人对我的评价来决定我的未来生涯规划这是不客观不公平的谢谢各位的指教如果有回答请回答好 谢谢委员好 谢谢好 谢谢各位"},{"start":976.118,"end":976.681,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166469","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166469","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd006d3d663e6ad30c8a3419a5287f8f915fbddbc901a86fecf857e8946a4dbda255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:19:32 - 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署長早安我們隨著後疫情民眾所有的消費習慣都做了一個很大的改變我觀察到我們每一年進口快遞的數量現在民眾都習慣在平台上購物無論從各國歐洲美國包括大陸都有"},{"start":40.083,"end":45.385,"text":"所以進口快遞的數目都是呈現攀升的狀況我從關務署進口快遞貨物的檢疫報單收單的份數當中我觀察到從去年114年1月到10月總共有52000"},{"start":59.483,"end":77.503,"text":"五萬兩千五百五十五萬份然後一百一十三年一月到十月總共有四千六百零八萬份那我們今年十一十二月現在的十一十二月剛好又是聖誕了忘記又碰到這個雙十一跟十二分量"},{"start":78.064,"end":104.187,"text":"其實無論是感恩節或者聖誕節其實都吸引大批的民眾從歐美中國大陸購買優惠的商品我想這個是整個後疫情時代大家消費習慣的改變所以伴隨於整個跨境的物流帶來大量的無論是在空運的部分或者在海塊通關的需求對於我們關務署來說我知道是一個非常大的挑戰"},{"start":105.188,"end":120.717,"text":"那我這邊我要請問部長是說從去年11、12月進口快遞貨物檢疫報單的收單數來看我們今年已經達到1238萬份那我們預估今年到年底到底會不會超過去年的份數關於進口量的一個趨勢我是不是可以請管務處來做說明署長今年會不會超過去年的"},{"start":130.498,"end":138.964,"text":"根據統計來說今年的量跟去年差不多啦差不多 差不多你的數字大概是多少那包括今年 總數差不多那我請問11 12月的海關海運跟空運的快遞平均會不會比去年差應該不會 因為這些都是忘記"},{"start":156.743,"end":172.215,"text":"應該是不會比去年差數字一樣嗎是多還是少差不多應該差不多數字都差不多10月差不多差距不大差距不大差距不大是差多少麻煩你會有提供給我數字"},{"start":175.072,"end":190.567,"text":"據我私底下的了解我們11月的收單數會呈現下滑的狀況因為我們現在大批的人力都花在前一陣子非洲豬瘟我們要加強查緝部長我覺得加強查緝"},{"start":192.771,"end":204.082,"text":"我認為是應該的但是我們不能發生事情才加強查緝對於非洲豬瘟我覺得國人食品的安全我向來都非常的重視所以它應該是一個長期的"},{"start":209.162,"end":235.005,"text":"檢查方式不是因為現在發生事情之後我加強查緝部長你瞭解我在講什麼的邏輯嗎你清楚嗎瞭解委員的意思也就是說有關防堵非洲豬瘟之前我從媒體上看到說我們面臨非洲豬瘟說我們加強查緝這句話另外一個層面的意思就是告訴我說過去都是邊境管理鬆散"},{"start":238.99,"end":253.025,"text":"这个状况所以就是说我重视食品安全我觉得那应该是一套长期标准的SOP什么样的标准的SOP什么样的量能是我们觉得足够的"},{"start":254.161,"end":267.585,"text":"他不是應該是發生事情之後我們加強查緝那我要請問一下就是說11月的海運跟空運的快遞總共查獲了幾件豬肉署長你這邊有數字嗎115件左右115件跟過去我們查緝查到的比例數字的比例有沒有太大的差別"},{"start":284.271,"end":300.169,"text":"跟去年大概是應該是有增加有增加 我們因為加強茶系的關係增加多少 還是有一些增加這個比例的數字如果要佔比的話可能要再統計一下署長 你花那麼多的精力我想知道數量 因為"},{"start":300.789,"end":301.889,"text":"你這個110多件跟我們現在手提行李一般帶進來的民眾不了解說這個蛋捲裡面有含豬肉啦帶進來的麵包裡面不小心含有小火腿啦"},{"start":314.997,"end":341.49,"text":"我覺得都應該仔細的檢查我的大原則大方向還是如此謝謝委員的支持部長 但是我還是要強調那是一個長期對於邊境管理很標準的一個SOP我不希望是因為發生事情才來處理但是我要提到的是民眾消費習慣改變之後對於無論通關從哪一個國家買進來從平台上購物的那個量我覺得"},{"start":343.391,"end":356.381,"text":"公務署還是要去做處理跟解決因為這是民眾的選擇我們常在講貨要出得去也要進得來人要流通我們的國家財務狀況才會健全才會更好我想你了解我的意思所以現在"},{"start":358.803,"end":385.458,"text":"很多貨都塞在無論空運或海運都塞在我們目前靠港的港口我聽到的狀況是這樣所以從各網站無論從PTT或者Facebook或者Dcard或Trade上面都很多網友在討論因為很多在平台購物都是很多的年輕人都在提到就是說現在的櫃位吃緊港口擁塞還有包括通關的量能造成現在貨物塞的狀況其實非常的嚴重"},{"start":388.2,"end":406.319,"text":"那當然通關慢你就會導致貨櫃就塞在那邊或甚至是港口會擁塞的狀況這是一個循環部長你了解我這是一個循環連帶的影響無論是查查我們國人食品的安全也好"},{"start":406.94,"end":432.053,"text":"或者是貨要進得來也好我覺得這個都是我們政府要處理的問題你要用什麼樣的方法處理你要用更先進的科技AI的處理方式或是什麼樣的處理我覺得這都是我們應該解決的問題我覺得包括我們量能邊境茶葉的量能夠不夠我們人力夠不夠我們的科技管理要不要更精進的去做處理"},{"start":433.332,"end":454.175,"text":"這個是我部長我今天要質詢的重點因為這都是我們政府要處理的問題這剛好都會是在你財政部底下要處理的問題部長那所以我們要怎麼處理因為前陣子我看到你說我看到有一份資料告訴我說我們財政部現在增加快遞查驗人力的員額我們要改成全數X光檢查"},{"start":455.436,"end":460.841,"text":"但是全數X光檢查本來就是在我們過去標準的SOP所有貨進來都會經過X光檢查所以這個不是在解決問題部長"},{"start":468.587,"end":487.002,"text":"我是在提說我們到底有沒有更精進的處理方法無論是增加人力是一種方法增加人力本來一個鐘頭可以看幾包貨我們現在增加人力可能大家可以稍微休息看的貨的速度可以更快或者用更先進的科技管理所以這個問題到底如何解決"},{"start":488.818,"end":490.339,"text":"謝謝委員對我們關物業務的一個重視我想邊境的管制是非常重要的那非洲豬瘟不講這個我都清楚 我沒有否定 我也支持但是貨怎麼樣進得來關照成消費者跟"},{"start":503.865,"end":506.448,"text":"業者之間的消費糾紛第一個我們要加強茶器第一個X光的一個檢查本來就百分之百但是我們必須要讓官員有一個時間可以不是說經過就算了一定要讓同仁要加強第二個我們也要加強開箱的一個茶葉也就人工茶葉的一個比例"},{"start":523.05,"end":524.011,"text":"我想海關同仁已經盡了全力來做這個查緝我覺得這個部分我們必須要給予海關同仁的支持"},{"start":542.432,"end":546.173,"text":"那也謝謝委員的支持另外像我們115年編列的有關手持X光機的太舊喚醒你人力的增加包括在AI這些我都知道但是還是沒有解決貨物怎麼樣更流暢更流通我們台灣海關的通關的一個效率是跟國際比起來絕對是比其他國家都來得快"},{"start":565.197,"end":570.741,"text":"我們的同仁已經盡全力來在做這個查驗的工作包括在人力的增加包括在科技的調整讓我們貨可以看得更快更精準這麼多年來其實海關在人力的一個資源上其實也都行政院也都盡力的在支持那在經濟上也還需要立法院的支持"},{"start":588.334,"end":605.002,"text":"部長你還是沒有回答到我的問題我花了十分鐘問這些你還是沒有回答到我剛才講的這些對於食品安全檢查我都全力的支持我也認為該做這是一個常態性長期應該做不是發生事情才做我提醒你所以我支持第二塊"},{"start":605.962,"end":629.942,"text":"在TRE上面 在臉書上面 在所有網站年輕人在討論的 怎麼樣讓通關可以更順暢因為現在都是在塞車 所以剛才我才有連帶貨櫃吃緊 然後塞在物流 港口也擁捨這個部分 我們沒有更進一步 精進的檢查方式是我今天檢討的重點但是我非常遺憾 你還是沒有回答到我的問題"},{"start":630.993,"end":638.897,"text":"委員的部分已經說明了是沒有回答你沒有回答我沒有我們的海關海關的同仁已經權利在已經食品的安全加強我全力的支持但是我非常遺憾的現在我剛才貨要進貨要出的去也要能夠進的來貨物的流通國家財政狀況也可以更好也支持委員但是我非常遺憾的你沒有回答到我們沒有更精進的做法你現在沒有回答到我的問題這就是我覺得我們現在在通關的部分我覺得沒有辦法解決的地方"},{"start":659.389,"end":662.314,"text":"我還是希望期待到看到你有更精進的做法以上好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166462","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166462","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd08d718da5fe05152b84d4c72640307d48fbddbc901a86fecf4a35e1cf326b66635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:27:42 - 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主席好 主席麻煩請林次長 請次長然後我們海港局葉局長 葉局長"},{"start":13.122,"end":34.096,"text":"來 次長委員早 次長局長早那個感謝朝偉這次排這相關的一個議程其實是非常的重要我們我國也是四面環海那我們的藍色公路或是觀光郵輪也都需要大幅的來推動本席現在來給次長瞭解一下背景是不是現在來瞭解我們最近郵輪的一個"},{"start":35.756,"end":59.584,"text":"業務就發生了這個有國際郵輪他說來推動我們相關的一個航程結果突然間已經開賣的一個旅程說要去前往菲律賓那結果說突然間因為可能是賣相不佳或說可能沒有那麼多的客源或怎麼樣導致於說他突然間臨時更變行程那原本已經下訂原本已經購買的旅客就突然間他就講說我"},{"start":61.485,"end":90.192,"text":"就是因為要去菲律賓所以我才買這個行程啊那就沒想到他片面的做更改那完全沒有任何即便是告知可是已經下電這個旅客的權益都已經受損了我想有沒有掌握這樣的狀況是 包委員目前我們有掌握例行有人明年1月份大概有9個行次是那其中有三個是要前往菲律賓的旅程那現在都已經更改片面更改調整要去日本沖繩是 對不對那"},{"start":91.007,"end":113.053,"text":"消費者的權益在哪邊尤其是我們看到是說他講如果說旅客還要前往的話我給你一個房間兩千塊的一個船上消費金額可是對於遊客來講他講說我可能是台北台中的旅客我光坐高鐵要去高雄來搭郵輪就已經要花幾千塊的高鐵費那再加上"},{"start":113.613,"end":132.261,"text":"我就是因為菲律賓的旅程我沒去過所以我才想要訂結果你現在突然片面改成我要去沖繩國人哪一個人沒有去過沖繩那可以任由業者直接片面說更改就更改然後完全不用跟旅客來告知那這樣我們的第三方公正機關在哪邊來協助 來"},{"start":134.724,"end":156.457,"text":"包委遊艇業者來開賣各種商品應該是要提前作業就是您提到的因為他有準備的期間那第二個遊艇業者應該依照原來開售的來履行他的這個服務跟保障旅客的權益所以如果遊艇業者因為狀況不管是什麼狀況"},{"start":157.738,"end":175.232,"text":"包含輪船遊船的問題或是當地安排的問題而要提出變更的話那應該依照消費者保護的原則跟精神要提前告知消費者來調整譬如說明年1月的行程那可能就要提早告知消費者讓他們有機會調整或是變更"},{"start":176.013,"end":198.957,"text":"那也應該要做必要的補償或是修正所以這個案子我已經要求航港局跟觀光署因為我們有一個正義處理小組目前是由航港局跟觀光署副首長組成那這一類的問題我們會請他們兩個單位儘早要求遊輪業者來協商然後提出該有的補償跟說明那我們的底線是什麼 我想"},{"start":199.497,"end":213.745,"text":"最簡單來講他雖然還傳出說他不全額退費還要扣人家的服務費手續費然後就是強迫旅客一定要搭乘等於是說我就不想退費啦你最好是直接就改成我要去沖繩你就配合我們去沖繩"},{"start":214.537,"end":231.657,"text":"包委員應該不可以這樣子當然不可以嘛不可以這樣子是 所以我們的底線就是要有全額退費的機制是那也不能扣除所謂的服務費因為畢竟那是你船公司片面更改形成嘛不是旅客的因素造成的或是也不是不可抗力的話應該由郵輪公司來負責好"},{"start":232.458,"end":259.847,"text":"那次長我想這一個部分你講也很清楚也很明確我覺得這是站在我們站在天平的中間左右兩端一方面我們希望郵輪可以多來台灣開設航線促進台灣的郵輪發展另外一方面我們也鼓勵消費者能夠去國外多看看或說鼓勵國外消費者來台灣搭乘郵輪多看看多停留但是我們的消費者權益保障就要做好這可以當成是一個"},{"start":260.507,"end":284.768,"text":"首例案例未來有這樣的樣態我們都應該要一致的標準所以未來我看到我們也有委員有今天的臨時提案也都希望是能夠針對這個部分能夠更加強我們所謂的定期化契約這一些是不是未來能夠寫在定期化契約裡面讓消費者不要每一次出了什麼問題都好像求助無門都一定要拜託民意代表機關然後到最後行政部門才姍姍來遲站出來"},{"start":286.369,"end":296.601,"text":"當然遲到總比不到好但我們的意思是未來的這個定期化機會是不是寫得更明確讓郵輪業者他們要片面更改形成之前他們就知道他們的成本在哪裡"},{"start":298.445,"end":317.674,"text":"謝謝委員確實如此遊輪我們歡迎他們來台灣提供服務跟提供旅遊方案但是這些方案必須要預先告知消費者也應該要有一定的保障所以在今年度行政院消保會有要求我們交通部到消保處來報告"},{"start":319.375,"end":339.04,"text":"那這個案子基本上觀光署跟航港局都有訂定這個定情化契約針對郵輪業者的責任以及旅行社的責任甚至是否因為不可抗力或是旅客的因素而造成的這個延誤但顯然過去他沒有還是他沒有想要打算遵守否則我們已經訂定了為什麼還會發生這樣的狀況"},{"start":341.08,"end":369.819,"text":"還是過去沒有把這個樣台給法治座位還在進行中是 好 那什麼時候我們定型化契約會出來來 我請局長稍微來 簡單說明一下什麼時候是 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活動團體 或者是製造廠商限期改善的權限那藉其未改善當然還是按次處罰那如果多次處罰如果還是沒有改正的話"},{"start":134.515,"end":150.537,"text":"就采取停止活动或废止它的操作许可证这样的严厉处分希望是透过先改善后处罚最后退场的分级管理机制让这样的行政手段更具有弹性跟时效才能够落实超新型载具活动的安全管理目标以上说明 谢谢"}]}},{"id":"166460","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166460","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0839de5f103ffefc9a3419a5287f8f915fbddbc901a86fecf44d40c79ee0f93675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:54:01 - 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你是部長我們再仔細看一下內容這些量價的變化反映在房市的後市的部分你去看"},{"start":241.02,"end":265.972,"text":"兩稅合一的部分少了這些錢兩稅合一少了3.9但事實上它座落在短期的這個部分就是適用稅率20%的這個部分跟過去相比這個就不一樣就減少比例但是在20%的部分以前45% 35%是最高的稅收來源現在變成20%也就是說過去短期投資客"},{"start":266.992,"end":294.813,"text":"会征收到比较多的税金现在变中长期的投资客会征收到比较多的税金那其实这个也是理性你往前推45跟20相差25那20到15你相差只有5而已所以会做到这个部分来做一个交易的一个结算这个部分你有没有考虑过财政部从这个两税合一当中你怎么去看未来你可能税收的预估也可以评估未来的房市的状况怎么样部长你有没有到底有没有去评估过"},{"start":295.424,"end":321.341,"text":"这才是关键所在对我们在税收的一个估算的时候会把这些的因素都会放进去那未来房市你怎么看你说未来的什么房市房地产的市场是不是对那从最近来看它事实上交易量是有减少然后价格是平稳的是所以你会调降你房地合一税的这个税收的目标吗"},{"start":322.341,"end":339.411,"text":"會去一起檢討的會檢討是調降還是調升那當然應該是會因為房地合一稅這個部分事實上跟他的持有期間的長短當時他的目的就是希望不要做短期的投資我們當然認為交易量減少他的這個稅收當然就會跟著減少跟交易量會有關係"},{"start":344.554,"end":369.213,"text":"现在是11月而已还有一个月的时间现在短收的部分只有3.9%你们去评估看看但是说来的话说到这个就要跟部长就较一个部分既然是这样子的话你看房地产的趋势可能就是相对的看空相对的看空的情况底下我们就要问"},{"start":370.434,"end":376.24,"text":"為什麼最近我們財政部還對外講出會有所謂的新清安的2.0為什麼"},{"start":383.338,"end":410.869,"text":"新清安這個政策到明年115年的7月就告一個段落那至於未來這個部分要做怎麼樣的一些調整你是因為房市摔下來然後你要支撐房市嗎倒也不是我們會因為要借期的嘛那後續要怎麼樣的來做推出或做怎麼樣的處理我們這個部分要預先預擬當然房地產的市場 金融市場以及整個情況我們都會納入我們考慮的一個因素"},{"start":411.049,"end":435.415,"text":"可是那个条件上是受到诟病最多的就是以前你把旧亲安改成新亲安的时候把年限三十年改成四十年把这个宽限期三年变五年然后把额度八千变一千额度八千它变一千老实讲本席没有什么意见之前本席就跟你讨论过为什么过去新亲安当中呢会让人家觉得诟病的地方它会变一个奇货你五年刚刚好"},{"start":436.72,"end":461.086,"text":"你剛剛房地合一的交易的那個成本金額最低如果說你還持有6年自住的話你還可以用10%的稅率而且還有400萬的免稅額等於是你參與這個新青岸的購買行動相對於炒房當中你又不用繳稅所以一大堆人集體集團在那邊購買新青岸就是過去新青岸一直受到詬病的地方不漲"},{"start":462.438,"end":467.975,"text":"你有沒有把這個問題想進去啊當你要推新清案的時候這些都應該要做檢討不是嗎"},{"start":468.997,"end":496.529,"text":"在新清安的执行过程当中我们有检讨也做调整第一个我们对各银行在审核的时候要加强审核第二个对于所谓的人头户或是买了以后出租的严加去追溯然后医生只有一次你不能买进又卖出你讲到这个就是外界一直受到抨击的地方以前就是你们是大方受根本没有事先的审核的门槛是被检讨了之后才有事后的查核不是吗"},{"start":497.529,"end":520.53,"text":"原來事先都沒有事後才加也現在的問題就來了就是要問你你接下來所謂的新青藍2.0你有沒有身分上的一些限制這是其一其二在條件門檻上沒有可能調整的空間你不要告訴本席說因為時間到了要銜接那如果銜接出來又是這種方式就不是在救青年購屋而是在救房市"},{"start":523.04,"end":541.866,"text":"委員這個部分不是這個委員你還說對不是對我的意思就是說您提到就是說後續要怎麼樣做我們目前在收集各界的意見以及看房地產的市場金融市場整個變化我們算不算各界的意見已經跟你講這麼多了講這麼多次了你還在收集就是說條件上要購買的條件上你要有一些門檻嘛"},{"start":544.907,"end":557.849,"text":"對不對身份嘛對不對第二個的部分呢也就是說你要是不是要繼續用這個所謂的寬限期五年讓他把它期貨化這要思考嘛"},{"start":559.065,"end":575.671,"text":"對啊 你們要退縮回來避免炒房 對不對委員的意見我們都會納入演講這個很關鍵要推出這個要慎思好不好那接下來那個剛剛你就提啦你那個整個稅收的因為"},{"start":577.341,"end":594.795,"text":"财发法的版本的修改之前的第一个版本已经通过了明年的部分整个中央会少了3000少了3000几亿对不对 超过3000亿3038亿好 3038亿那也是地方你会多给了好像3543你刚刚讲是这样子"},{"start":596.672,"end":625.013,"text":"三千多亿嘛就简单的讲中央少了很多要举债地方多了很多结果每次谈到这个税制的改变的时候你都对地方非常的体贴特别是这个娱乐税跟这个印花税每次跟你提到的时候你就说我们要问一下地方的意见地方呢基本上呢认为是不宜废掉这个印花税跟娱乐税为什么因为要保留地方的自由的甩员跟财务自主的空间那我问你啊"},{"start":625.754,"end":637.11,"text":"部長現在增加了3000多億地方已經增加了3000多億了夯不啷噹我算過這是印花稅多少錢不過是多少 188億對地方然後娛樂稅是21億加起來不過是210億"},{"start":643.919,"end":655.044,"text":"我問一下部長有沒有重新檢討的空間主動權在你身上娛樂稅的修正草案已經送請大院在審議當中印花稅188億對地方來說他們是都堅持反對要把它廢除"},{"start":661.527,"end":682.282,"text":"你就說因為財源 現在財源多那麼多 你還因為這個你要站在稅制改革的角度啦第一次在審查貨物稅或使用牌照稅 他們都說你如果減了稅 使用牌照稅就是我地方稅你如果給我修了 你就要補我稅損這個字上是當然我們了解是但是因為涉及到地方的財政制度我們還是要參考地方政府的意見你要增加這麼多錢 你還在講這種話那他們都還講這種話你們劇本能不能改一下"},{"start":688.106,"end":695.695,"text":"不是我的劇本是他們的劇本你這財政部是聽地方財政局的話那是地方稅問題是稅基的部分你可以調整不是嗎 部長隨天權在你你回去好好檢討一下可不可以現在已經沒有所謂的他的財務自主的問題了"},{"start":707.475,"end":710.578,"text":"他的財務狀況這麼好你還在考慮這一個問題條件不一樣了啦 部長重新檢討一下啦 好不好好 謝謝委員是 謝謝委員好 請部長再回去檢討一下好 謝謝郭國文委員接下來請賴"}]}},{"id":"166508","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166508","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0506a61a880775db0212f972bfaabac2c6ad855f0f05df91b563cb0ca640d278f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"13:01:47 - 13:12:17","影片長度":"00:10:30","會議時間":"2025-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22 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有請國安局蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 林委員好"},{"start":12.415,"end":31.804,"text":"局長好 局長你應該很清楚美國的美中經濟安全委員會每年都會發布報告是作為政府施政和國會的問政所以你應該也知道USCC在上個月11月18號發布了年度報告內容多達733頁其中光是提到台灣的次數"},{"start":33.004,"end":37.169,"text":"大約就包含了整個目錄大約有1223次甚至還在報告的第11章中專門寫了一個討論台灣問題的專章根據USCC的年度報告裡面所提到跟台灣有關的內容"},{"start":48.041,"end":52.446,"text":"大多是中國的威脅有極大的關聯所以我想局長對這個報告應該是有研究吧其中它上面有具體的建議美國國會應該指示國務院啟動一項非武器資源服務的對外軍售的項目用於加強美國在台灣周邊的嚇阻的人力"},{"start":70.585,"end":89.037,"text":"這個部分上次11月24號委員會質詢的時候本席就有請教過你們的副局長當時可能是因為報告才發表國安局還沒有充分的掌握整個有給本席也沒有給本席一個充分的答案所以今天我想要請教局長你認為USCC報告裡面所謂的非武器資源的軍售指的是什麼還有對台灣的國家安全又會有什麼樣的幫助"},{"start":98.202,"end":124.415,"text":"我想第一個先跟委員說明一下USCC它是美國國會成立的一個專家委員會他們針對各種的情勢有提出一些言析跟建議不過再次強調它只是一個專家委員會有一些委員所提到的這些項目跟內容美國政府並沒有公開的去把它列為目前即將要推動的一個政策所以比較像是的是報告公佈之後它有帶動一個話題"},{"start":125.916,"end":139.447,"text":"但不是一個正式的政策議題所以我自己認為我以國安局局長的身份假如說在美國政府都還沒有一些相關政策立場的時候有太多公開評論的話比較不恰當那請委員可以理解"},{"start":140.25,"end":162.099,"text":"好那我再請教一下就是說像美國總統任期內都會對外發表了國家安全戰略NSS報告這一份的報告可以說是全世界最重要的一份的文件因為對照NSS報告公佈之後觀察美國的實際的戰略的佈局大部分都是會有完全的遵照這樣的執行"},{"start":163.419,"end":178.49,"text":"所以川普也在最近12月4號發表他這一次川普2.0版的2025年國家的安全戰略雖然報告從第一任的總共大約68頁大約出現台灣三次但是精簡到現在整個總頁數大約只有33頁但是"},{"start":181.232,"end":203.305,"text":"報告的內容提到台灣大約有八次所以對台灣的關心其實是前所未有的所以川普對這一份的報告中雖然他反映了美國對台灣的戰略定位顯示是整個是有一點提升的但是美國過去在這個報告文件中一直都是強調說與同盟國的之間的共同的價值但是現在"},{"start":204.226,"end":226.852,"text":"他居然就整個傾向到基於利益還有交易的關係與亞洲盟友的合作而非普世價值例如台灣的價值就只強調了半導體產業的經濟重要性還有軍事戰略的地理的價值所以因此我想請教一下局長就是我們一直在強調與美國的民主共同的價值"},{"start":227.372,"end":241.745,"text":"美國在意的卻是我們的經濟和地理戰略的價值那會不會在雙方的對話上有造成了一些分歧你認為美國川普總統的2025年的國安戰略他們是怎麼樣如何重新定位台灣的呢"},{"start":242.546,"end":258.974,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問就這次美國的國家安全戰略一般在解讀上認為它是比較所謂務實的現實主義比較重視的是透過實際的力量來維護和平的存在我們把它稱為是務實的現實主義也才會"},{"start":260.134,"end":277.155,"text":"稍早有陸續跟幾位委員說明的美國開始跟區域友盟來加強一些防衛上的合作以及透過一些安全協定來推動一些聯演聯訓提升跟國際友盟的那個整合的程度跟聯合運作的能力這大概是第一部分跟委員說明的"},{"start":277.555,"end":295.862,"text":"那第二部分是在這個新版的國家安全戰略之下那可能台灣也必須要了解到這個發展的趨勢怎麼樣來提升自我防衛能力也是一個非常重要的一個環節那可能在後續我們在觀察美國的國安"},{"start":297.342,"end":313.937,"text":"戰略的推動我想正如委員所說的因為它國安戰略它有經過跨部會的一個討論所以它會變成是一個比較清楚的一個藍圖那我在專報也特別引述了印太司令帕帕羅上將的一個說法那他們在整個後續的執行規劃上三個重點"},{"start":314.557,"end":329.802,"text":"一個當然就是維持區域裡面重要的水域航道的開放性那第二個就是美國會進行必要的前置部署那第三個就是相關國際友盟也應該要承受更大的一個承擔更大的一個防衛的責任"},{"start":330.402,"end":356.876,"text":"所以我想在這樣的清楚的戰略之下以及他們相關的政策說明之下那台灣可能在第一島鏈也要有自己的清楚定位那提升相關的國防能力能夠跟區域有盟合作發展的動向大家可以一致性不要變成台灣是一個好像搭便車的一個角色好那最後一個問題我想請教一下局長就是說那這樣的話依照國安局的判斷2027年中共會不會發動武統呢"},{"start":360.75,"end":382.749,"text":"就這個部分之前主要是因為美國的情報機關跟美國的印太司令有去提醒在中共對台的武力整備過程當中2027年是一個重要的時間節點要特別注意那因為美方的說法是習近平要求解放軍在2027年以前要準備好相關的能力"},{"start":383.189,"end":407.687,"text":"那至於2027年會不會真正的犯台他可能考慮到的不只是能力的建置還有包括到政治的經濟的社會的跟國際情勢相關的環境所以大概目前在討論這個2027年是否中共會犯台大概是剛剛跟委員簡短報告的這樣的一個角度請委員參考好那謝謝局長那我有請那個顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":413.212,"end":413.944,"text":"是 我也用好了"},{"start":414.892,"end":420.957,"text":"部長接下來我會有一個比較混亂的有一個問題因為現在發生一個混亂的現象我想請教一下部長就是說官兵授訓的期間戰鬥家級還有主管職的家級到底是需不需要停資這一個問題因為本席這邊了解到各單位的財務室的做法都不太一樣請問部長依照現行的規定官兵授訓的期間各項的家級到底還是不是可以繼續支領呢"},{"start":445.077,"end":468.317,"text":"您講的授訓是指短期的還是他到紙餐或者是就短期的是短期的授訓嗎我想這個部分是不是志願室報委員他如果是屬於長期的授訓沒有在那個植物上附帶那個植物加緊是的確是依規定是需要先暫停"},{"start":469.81,"end":478.155,"text":"你說長期的你說短期的是需要被暫停的沒有沒有短期不用長期的你的短期和長期的界線在哪裡"},{"start":478.988,"end":507.676,"text":"就是說最明顯的例子就是他去紙餐從事這個紙餐或者戰院等等的這些他離開他的這個職務了嘛那因為他沒有這個職務就不能夠領取嘛但是他如果是短期的授訓但是他還是在這個職務上那就沒有這個問題因為據我了解是如果授訓超過30天的話就要將停之嘛所以這樣的話是30天如果超過30天就停止支點是嗎"},{"start":510.743,"end":538.063,"text":"是的這樣的話我覺得這樣也很奇怪因為如果國軍官兵受限於這個的話結果反而會造成他們繼續想要知領戰鬥加級或是地獄加級的話竟然會想說國軍可能就是不想要去受訓了其實去受訓是很好的他可以加強他們的技能嘛所以如果是說他們這樣的話不能領的話這樣不是就是變成說他們根本就是都不願意積極去受訓嗎"},{"start":540.764,"end":555.792,"text":"應該說關鍵的判斷點是他有沒有在這個植物這個植物上假設他還是有這個植物他當然就可以領取嘛就像我們現在第一家級也是如此他就一定要實際在那個地方服役那如果說他沒有在外里島服役那他這個"},{"start":557.012,"end":574.185,"text":"現在就會被停止支領這個地域家計所以他這個授訓應該問題是問說他會不會因為他的授訓而離開那個植物如果他沒有因為授訓而離開那個植物他應該就可以但是如果他離開那個植物的話"},{"start":575.466,"end":598.574,"text":"調離那個植物他就不能夠允許所以這樣有一定的規範嗎因為我看各單位的財務社好像做法都不太一樣而且很多官兵去授訓其實連慰勞假都是要被扣的嘛對不對所以現在有時候授訓太長的期間的時候大部分都沒有辦法慰勞假講的就是在紙那種要到紙餐啊這個深造那個他長期的去到學校那個那個"},{"start":601.235,"end":626.091,"text":"又是不一樣的他就是他等於是去了從事一個紙餐跟站院這些等等的到那邊去做一個長期的一個訓練那就這個部分那沒關係那可以給我一份報告嗎就是針對他的加擠方面還有他受訓多少時間的時候他就是沒有支付加擠就相關的規定我們再跟委員做個報告OK好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166456","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166456","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd09a21284c98bd3134a3419a5287f8f915704993c5309c567d27a1751fd121cdf95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:28:41 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99那你意思說你12月會短收很多囉"},{"start":112.57,"end":123.418,"text":"我們的分配數達成率是以分配數達成率是98.3不是啦我剛剛問你到11月底11月底的分配數是94.2對不對原報告中央政府的部分達成的分配預算數的比例是98.3%在全年的預算數達成是94.6"},{"start":138.604,"end":151.395,"text":"對啊你那講的是實質的收到的數目我跟你說你到11月尾底分配數是94.2%94.2%這個是數字是你們提供的嘛分配數但是你們的達成數是94.6%也就是說你們超過了0.4%表現很好啊"},{"start":161.909,"end":176.441,"text":"委員我不知道我們提供的是根據這邊的統計達到分配預算數的比就分配是到11月的分配數是98.3但全年度達成率是94.6對啊就11月底你們的達成數是94.6啊我沒有說錯啊問題是你們的分配數是94.2啊那分配數94.2達成94.6"},{"start":192.026,"end":194.088,"text":"還是說你們是分配數的94.6那個署長你幫幫部長回答一下吧"},{"start":202.779,"end":228.856,"text":"報告委員是這樣我們先講時增數就是我們先講我們原來分配到11月底的預算數到全年的比例原來該拿到的是98.9%98.9%但我們現在時增數佔整個累計我們的預算數分配比例只有到94.2%我是在跟你先問11月底啦對我現在都是講11月底你給我們的數字是到11月底分配數是94.2%時增數是94.6%"},{"start":233.314,"end":260.098,"text":"那是中央數跟全國數剛才委員您講的那個94.2是全國數94.6是中央數不是指那個預算數佔整個累積預算數的點那再問一個問題就是說因為今年你們有一個特殊的政策就是因為台灣跟美國在貿易談判所以你們那個佔繳稅款的部分你可以分期嗎還是那個應繳的稅款可以分期"},{"start":261.326,"end":287.6,"text":"那個到底會影響多少你們估過嗎目前我們現在統計的數字大概600因為我們統計有點落後現在是616億左右包括專稅跟地方稅那個如果加進來是不是今年一樣114年度的總稅收也是會到達百分之百但是他會陸續會回收因為他是分期繳納我知道啦他會陸續回收我們對話其實在同一個平台上我們不要這樣我的意思是說今年"},{"start":288.806,"end":302.708,"text":"如果把這個暫時讓人家先不用繳的這一部分將來可以回收部分也算進來今年的實收數事實上也是會到達百分之百嘛是不是好謝謝來我們再請部長繼續請部長部長那今年因為到現在12月中了剩下兩個禮拜這個會期法定會期結束到現在總預算還沒有付尾對不對是的"},{"start":317.796,"end":341.559,"text":"那總預算還沒有付也就是沒有審查那沒有審查會造成什麼影響到目前沒有審查會讓我們的在施政上會有一些摯愛為什麼因為明年度的稅出預算都會受到限制那第一個不能超過114年的實際執行數那有一些新興計畫也沒有辦法執行"},{"start":342.432,"end":353.729,"text":"好 那我現在問一個問題剛剛前一個委員關鍵那個統籌分配稅款統籌分配稅款雖然是照公司分配但是是不是也納入我們收入的全部"},{"start":356.237,"end":376.493,"text":"統籌分配稅款在中央政府部分因為我們在編列中央政府稅客收入的時候就把中央統籌分配稅款就切出去了並沒有在我們的稅客收入裡面所以不用進入本院審查就沒有在因為就按照那個財化法裡面的稅收的比例去把它劃到地方的稅客收入裡面去那現在我已經我自己也亂掉了你財化法現在這麼多的版本"},{"start":378.991,"end":399.185,"text":"有之前的版本修正了第一版修正了第二版那現在第三版行政院說他現在不附屬嘛對不對所以不附屬照憲法的規定暫時還沒有生效率所以就是如以前一版而言那個統籌分配稅款現在你估計可以分給地方政府的金額有多少明年啊估計數這當然是估計數了"},{"start":408.819,"end":433.019,"text":"以8840億8840億所以如果就是說我們這邊預算不省這8840億也是會撥下去的對 它就進入地方的稅客收入裡面去但是因為你那個最新就是在生肖前最後一個版本它對於那個統籌分配稅款的來源它有一些來源別的這個更改譬如說你的營業稅的部分是多少比例分給地方跟你以前比起來差別多少"},{"start":434.174,"end":452.672,"text":"它是扣掉這個基增成本以及統一發票獎金以後全部都給地方那以前是給多少以前是40%那現在等於他們會多拿50%幾嘛對不對因為你的基增跟這個統一發票的成本也沒有多少嘛那個大概會佔幾%大概1.5%"},{"start":455.661,"end":473.335,"text":"那所以就是他們會拿到等於會拿到58.5%地方政府會多拿到58.5%的這個營業稅那這一部分的營業稅的總金額大概會占多少跟委員報告我們以114年度中央政府我們的營業稅的編列的稅率是3830億但是我們在115年根據新的財化法的話我們只有296億的營業稅的稅可收入"},{"start":481.909,"end":507.695,"text":"地方政府會等於是你估計會增加多少他在這個部分的金額比去年比今年115年比114年就增加了3534億好那現在假設我們預算沒有審查因為我看起來是不會審的那沒有審查這3000這增加了3000多億跟連以前那3000多億總共8000多億一樣是撥給地方政府就是統籌分配稅款的這部分"},{"start":509.449,"end":530.028,"text":"中央統籌分配稅款在今年115年明年是達到了8874億那這個部分已經進入地方政府的稅客收入裡面去 劃歸去了對 但是由中央徵收只是我們徵收完之後是要撥給地方政府這個沒有經過我們的這個年度中央的總預算啦"},{"start":530.208,"end":545.664,"text":"沒有在裡面如果這樣少了這些的話中央的總預算你們估計會少多少就是稅客收入的部分營業稅這50幾%也撥給地方之後光這一部分中央的稅會少多少3038億也就是說114年度中央的稅收"},{"start":551.209,"end":564.468,"text":"可以算中央的本來是兩兆七千多億光課稅的部分那少了這三千多億中央就馬上少了兩兆四千多億就成為兩兆四千八百零七億所以你今年的這個預算收入"},{"start":565.877,"end":594.154,"text":"雖然沒有審查但送到本院來的已經照這樣子編列了是不是目前的總預算是這樣編列的那所以你今年明年度的這個稅科收入這個編列的總數跟今年度是差多少就是差3038億所以你是估計明年都沒有成長跟今年比起來明年都沒有成長沒有啊你看中央統籌分配稅款不是啦我是說這3000多億這部分就已經先劃掉不要再算的話剩下的部分中央的稅收有沒有增加"},{"start":594.83,"end":617.837,"text":"是有增加的增加在哪一部分加在稅目裡面包含所得稅是有增加7%增加的還有就是遺證稅我們略微編有增加其他像遺證稅還有都減少的只有所得稅有增加7%所以"},{"start":620.683,"end":637.742,"text":"也就是說今年度114年度的中央的稅客收入跟明年度現在送到立法院來還沒有審查的這個115年度的會計年度的這個中央稅客收入差距是多少差短少了多少錢"},{"start":639.063,"end":658.099,"text":"10增數跟預估數因為你115年就還沒有增啊你怎麼會知道10增數那就差到了差不多也是3000多億啊 超過3000億啊3000多億問題是中央哪一部分的支出可以可以受升啊不然這3000多億是不是都要舉債啊對 所以我們115年度總預算編列的舉債數2992億你的稅出又縮減了哪一些部分"},{"start":665.978,"end":673.997,"text":"稅出的部分 當然是由主計總署這邊來做指引我知道喔 當然今天不在所以我請妳一併回答 妳知道嗎主要是說少 減少了哪一些部分"},{"start":674.908,"end":694.973,"text":"中央的部分的施政其實有很多都是有重要那我們其實以財政部來說也是有縮減我們的稅出的部分因為有一些計畫完成我們就沒有在做編排所以照理來講錢多這麼多你應該事權要分配啊那地方政府多做哪一些事中央政府哪一些事少做所以我們的錢可以減少這部分是不是應該爬梳離親啊當然是 是的"},{"start":696.853,"end":722.469,"text":"所以你們最近工作很多雖然沒有省預算這部分的工作好像省起來了但是其他要整理的事情很多我跟你說地方政府的尤其是地方議會的議員跟我反映他們現在在地方他們認為他們預算都省假的因為到底他們會拿到多少錢什麼東西他們都不清楚所以好像在開玩笑一樣有的甚至還說那我就只要是先編然後不能來的我就先舉借"},{"start":724.364,"end":748.747,"text":"等等 弄成一團糟啦從上到下全部都一團糟啦這也就是說在財化法修正的時候完全沒有討論事權而只是討論到錢要怎麼樣劃出去但事權沒有並同討論所以造成這樣的一個現象好 謝謝喔那妳工作人員多加油喔 謝謝不要說沒有預算了那就不用做事光領薪水啦這不行的 這個跟國際民生都有關係好 謝謝吳秉瑞委員接下來請"}]}},{"id":"166455","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166455","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0526955ae0a85ce0d212f972bfaabac2c704993c5309c567dce8271213e3fc7bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:26:55 - 09:37:52","影片長度":"00:10:57","會議時間":"2025-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22 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部長今天我聽了國安局跟國防部的這兩份專案報告真的是非常明確的說明了共軍在台海周邊還有東海 南海還有在海空的挑釁跟灰色地帶的侵擾所以也造成了印太地區的緊張今天早上本席也看到就是說國防部有發布了一個黑白的照片也就是說在昨天的時候"},{"start":35.979,"end":38.561,"text":"今年才服役的福建號第一次經過台灣海峽請問他們這次的這個舉動有什麼異常的地方嗎我們有在監控嗎請問這個部分"},{"start":49.612,"end":68.111,"text":"我想我們有全程的監控那我們發布的照片也顯示上面並沒有建載機那我們預判他是應該要回到上海的長興島去做他的再就進一步就做相關的一些缺改"},{"start":68.912,"end":89.948,"text":"所以目前的觀察是如此是因為今年才作服務我們在想說它這個舉動到底代表了什麼意義這部分到目前為止觀察到的是只是說它只是要回到上海就這樣子沒有任何的軍事的舉動就是了目前的觀察沒有目前的觀察沒有"},{"start":90.388,"end":94.25,"text":"面對中共的挑釁也好或者是說在灰色地帶的侵擾面對這種不穩定的局勢其實各國都有一個共識就是必須要來強化自我防衛的能力可是我們先來看看日本好了"},{"start":113.078,"end":123.969,"text":"那日本政府呢他現在在推動防衛力準備計畫那預計在2026年度的時候呢這防衛費呢就要提高到大概是9兆日元大概是新台幣1.8億兆元那是創歷史的這新高而且他們會提前兩年實現國防支出佔國內生產毛額2%的這個目標"},{"start":131.737,"end":149.543,"text":"北約的會員國在今年6月承諾將國防開支比重增加到GDP的5%到2035年的時候GDP的3.5%會用在核心的軍費另外1.5%會用在基礎設施等比較廣泛的安全相關的領域可是我們看看台灣"},{"start":150.683,"end":172.024,"text":"那台灣呢由國防部提出並經行政院通過的今年就是分年八年編列的1.25兆的強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰略計畫採購的特別條例草案到昨天為止呢已經被在野黨三度的阻擋在程序"},{"start":172.725,"end":174.386,"text":"委員會連一讀的這個機會都沒有然後要到委員會裡面做實質審查的機會也不給在野黨口口聲聲說我們必須要透明我們有疑慮可是進入委員會審實質審查充分討論"},{"start":191.46,"end":212.167,"text":"而且審查的時候我們都還有直播這應該是最透明的方式可是非常的遺憾昨天第三度在程旭委員會被惡意的阻擋跟杯葛那在野黨真的是無視中國在過去20年來共軍增加了"},{"start":213.207,"end":219.808,"text":"將近7倍的這個軍費用來擴充這個軍備可是卻是扯我們自己國家的這個後腿那本席族現代程序委員會真的是非常非常的這個氣憤因為他一再的杯葛一再的風刷真的是我們可以說是慶祝難輸那再來不只這樣子再也擋出了杯葛我們這個特別條例之外呢而且呢"},{"start":239.672,"end":249.075,"text":"對外呢 都是他的論述其實都是在帶一些風向 比如說誇大年度的預算 他指控說明年的國防的預算呢將高達2.2兆元可是呢 這1.2兆其實是分8年"},{"start":255.297,"end":283.493,"text":"來做編列 實際上我們的國防預算呢其實我們是編列了9495億元可是呢他卻是要帶風向 硬是把這1.2兆呢列入就是加在這明年的國防預算裡面那還有呢 他有質疑就是說特別預算對社福啦教育的資會造成排擠 這部分我可能拜託待會國防部要來解釋一下到底這特別預算對社福對教育會不會造成這個排擠"},{"start":284.173,"end":304.488,"text":"那再來還有就是我們現在不知道要買什麼啊不知道買什麼那就到委員會來做審查嘛可以國防部我想可以問讓他們問到報我想請問一下到底我們這個明年度的是我們這8年的這個1.2兆元的這個特別條例編列下去的話真的會對社福跟教育支出造成排擠嗎請問部長"},{"start":306.156,"end":326.311,"text":"我想我們的特別預算因為是分八年來編列那這裡面也提到了他的來源就是用這個歷年來稅積剩餘以及這個舉債來支應那另外也要受到這個財政距離法的一個約束所以我想"},{"start":327.768,"end":350.698,"text":"不會造成有排擠的一個效果就是完全不會造成排擠嘛那再來我想請教就叫1.25兆其實我們原定是要採購長射程的飛彈無人機機動雷達等不對稱的這個戰略那被這個在野黨一再的這個封殺那我們整個建制期程一定會延大然後造成國家會有一個怎麼樣的影響呢國家安全"},{"start":352.041,"end":380.573,"text":"我想我們可以看到美國的這個NSS就是美國的國家安全戰略它裡面最近根據這個美國戰爭部次長Elbridge Colby他所講的他認為就是說這個美國國家安全戰略就是代表美國回歸實力及聚焦盟友的責任為核心的一個國家安全戰略"},{"start":381.57,"end":394.723,"text":"那麼對台灣而言美國仍然視台海為核心的利益也就是台海的和平穩定線上是美國的核心利益但他從此強調台灣自身防衛能力能成為能否有效嚇阻"},{"start":396.633,"end":411.567,"text":"的一個關鍵前提所以我想台灣的自我防衛能力的一個提升來跟各有盟國家包括剛剛委員提到了日本也大幅的提高國防預算大家"},{"start":413.052,"end":429.435,"text":"一起齊心建立一個協同嚇阻那麼以實力達成有效嚇阻以嚇阻達成和平我想這個是我們作為這個第一島鏈的前緣所我們應該要承擔的一個責任跟義務"},{"start":431.002,"end":458.263,"text":"是 我看其他的這個國家對於自己國家的自我防衛的這個能力說實話大家不管朝野都是一致來贊成那我昨天一而再再二再而三在程序委員會遇到這個我們這些特別條例也好或者是說我們的預算一再的被阻礙一再的被杯葛覺得說這是怎麼一回事為什麼就算是朝野可能有一些意見的"},{"start":459.704,"end":486.504,"text":"可是國家自我防衛能力的提升保衛自己的國家這是一個正常的心態我們看到就是說在程序委員會一再的被阻擋真覺得是居心叵測所以就覺得說我今天必須在委員會這邊來提出昨天我們已經連續三個禮拜在程序委員會被阻擋的這個現象也必須讓大家知道到底這些在野黨的委員到底是怎麼了"},{"start":487.184,"end":511.852,"text":"保衛自己的國家不是應該的嗎提升自己自我防衛的能力不是就應該的嗎那台灣呢有自我自我防衛的能力在這個第一島案來講就像國防部長剛才所講的我們有這個責任我們是其中的一份子我們有這個責任怎麼會一再的阻擋呢進入委員會裡面去做實際審查其實是最透明的一種方式"},{"start":513.213,"end":529.286,"text":"連討論都不討論我們多少法案是連討論都不討論不是敬附二讀表決通過不然呢就完全阻擋在程序委員會擺在程序委員會連審都不讓你有機會審真的是非常糟糕的一件事情那再來115年度的總預算到現在為止也是一樣"},{"start":533.67,"end":556.601,"text":"好,到現在為止一樣,在院長提出這個複議那再來有很多的計畫那很多的採購案訓練也可能會受到這個影響我請部長再說明一下如果是說我們一百一十五年度的這種預算延宕的話會造成哪些影響我們要做的很多事情就沒辦法做我想很多的新增計畫應該沒有辦法執行"},{"start":559.223,"end":574.459,"text":"這說明一下好嗎我也好我是主席局局長有關於一百一十五年如果總預算沒辦法審議的話其中國防部的部分編列了五千六百一十四億其中我們會受到影響的部分我們初步估算大概是六百六十億其中"},{"start":575.3,"end":595.216,"text":"屬於軍頭新政案的部分就有79個案子86億那其他的是屬於作業維持費跟軍事投資案較114年度增加的額度這按照預算法跟主席總書的規範說這部分是要列為管制的就是執行數不可以超過114年度的預算數額這部分大概有570多億"},{"start":596.917,"end":624.049,"text":"加總起來大概超過660億那這裡面很大一部分大概有400多億是屬於後勤整備的零附件跟保修以及彈藥的一個籌購還有一部分是屬於裝備的採購大概有150億另外還有一部分是委員所關切的部隊的訓練大概有20幾億的部分是會被作為一個管制的一個額度所以整個預算來講目前我們初步盤估會受影響的程度如上面所報 以上"},{"start":625.049,"end":651.675,"text":"所以不管是說好像跟國防有關的這些預算其實都會受到嚴重的影響尤其是對於新興事業的這個部分可能連做都沒有辦法做如果這個預算一再的不整合的話會變成這樣子嗎真的在這裡要再次呼籲我們真的是在野黨我們國家台灣就只有一個保護自己的國家是我們所有人的責任在這裡真的是再次呼籲大家應該是一致向外 一致團結 謝謝好 謝偉"}]}},{"id":"166454","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166454","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd09c874707fb3ad34ba3419a5287f8f915704993c5309c567d82244cc87e3a1d295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:16:26 - 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有沒有當然我們因為剩最後一個月12月了那我們應該看這個稅務也就委員一直關心所謂中央統統分配稅那中央統統分配稅款是從所得稅還有貨物稅 營業稅各個稅務來看的所以這個部分"},{"start":675.564,"end":699.838,"text":"總數跟各稅務之間是有差距的所以我才跟委員報告說中央統籌分配稅款最後分配給地方政府的部分跟原來通知分配稅款之間的差距要最後才精算才知道而不是用一個總數來算那譬如說證交稅到目前為止比去年少了30億幣去年同期少了30億但證交稅沒有到進入中央統籌分配稅款所以它的少收也不會影響到中央統籌分配稅款"},{"start":700.798,"end":724.512,"text":"這部分要等到12月底以後再來大家計算更精確但是在事前我們要先通知地方政府今年的一個狀況讓他可以預為因應這是跟委員報告第二個部分報告都用公式計算跟黨派是無關我希望部長公平公正客觀就好從來都是我們依法執政是 謝謝好 謝謝林德輔委員"}]}},{"id":"166453","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166453","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd09d23f3b0aa3a547ade1f52b7ef2c373b704993c5309c567db22339bbe58c964b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:19:29 - 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驱革赔偿责任强化溯源的诱因我们也修正了第二条的规定明确驱革个别行为人的赔偿责任以及犯罪组织的追赃的范围如果犯罪者能进一步提供具体的事证"},{"start":156.451,"end":174.685,"text":"協助檢警查獲詐欺集團的首腦或者是查扣該組織所有被害人所取得的不法利德才能獲得檢除期刑透過明確的區分層次才可以保障這個被害"},{"start":175.868,"end":201.307,"text":"人的求償的權利喔而且可以引發這個集團內部成員才有機會窩裡一反喔還有有機會吹哨者才能實現他們的這個成效來協助這個挖解被害集團的詐欺集團綜上所述喔本次修法的回應社會對於打擊詐騙的期待以及期待嚴處犯罪與被害人的保護那懇請各位同仁支持謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166452","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166452","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0973747065129a42ade1f52b7ef2c373b704993c5309c567d8b5c004b5ca1c9ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:15:52 - 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自白要再加上全額的賠償被告除了在偵查跟審判中要認罪以外還必須跟被害者達成和解或者是調解的共識二 確認明確的賠償期限參考刑事訴訟法關於一副調解的規定以及實務案件的處理情形"},{"start":145.649,"end":168.255,"text":"明定被告必須在偵查中首次自白之日6個月起全額支付和解的金額才能具備減刑的資格我們希望在這次修法能夠達成三贏的局面第一對被害者來講最短時間內能夠真正彌補被害者同意的賠償金額不用在漫長的訴訟中苦等"},{"start":168.795,"end":192.966,"text":"二對於司法程序來說透過強大的減刑誘因來促使被告盡速和解有效縮短徵訊的過程也節省寶貴的司法資源以及第三最重要是社會的公平正義堵決空頭認罪就能換取減刑的歪風確保刑罰的公平性共同加嚴打擊犯罪嚇阻犯罪"},{"start":193.51,"end":215.369,"text":"打擊詐騙嚇阻詐騙是我們永遠堅持的路在這條路上只要有詐騙的一天我們就不能放鬆也不該放鬆懇請行政部門以及所有委員共同支持我們的修正草案希望讓今天能夠順利的逐條審查完畢趕快刪讀讓社會公平正義能夠早日實現謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166450","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166450","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0877d2ee015f776d7a3419a5287f8f915704993c5309c567db63d252e14d10cbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"09:10:36 - 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為這兩個案子他有兩個案子喔111年的然後還有呢最新的一個應該是114年對然後最近的12月這兩個案子上面勾的打勾的都是屬於機敏性的案子然後關於涉及國家安全採購也打勾是是那您剛說的很清楚了那是因為這是國防部的案子就是因為他是國防部的案子我們才會這麼的重視"},{"start":174.321,"end":190.495,"text":"好所以呢我想既然這個上面白紙黑字詢問了就至少對於我今天作為投標方來說那我是不是我今天是投標方來說我是不是在相關的標案上看到的就是屬於敏感性或國安就是屬於涉及國家安全相關的採購是吧"},{"start":191.916,"end":216.931,"text":"跟委員報告他凡是要進入我們相關的營區的話就我的了解都是要做治安的跟人員的查核沒有錯所以他需要有一定的查核他就跟一般就是比如說我今天可能在什麼其他的資訊的服務所以他要進入到營區所以是這個因為進入到營區所以他對於進入在進來的人我們要做對他做人員的"},{"start":217.831,"end":242.979,"text":"當然我們要對他做人員的調查對不對好 那我問一下喔那個部長你有沒有看過這個查行的負責人他對外說明的相關影片了不然我先問一下你有看過這個查行的負責人我沒有特別注意好 那我給您看一下好不好因為我覺得這個呢其實蠻重要的來 我們播一下影片你們才10萬的資本額可以做這麼大的生意會不會覺得很誇張我覺得蠻勵志的政府標案大概拿下幾件"},{"start":243.659,"end":260.07,"text":"56件有啦 56件就是包括这一次的对啊 就是加起来这样子后来就也不找那个住店的啦因为住店要再请人什么的关你很麻烦我们都是找那种维护就是他如果有报休我们就过去这样子那你这边说你有咨询工程背景可不可以拿出你的学历证"},{"start":260.41,"end":288.251,"text":"太突然了啦可是妳是什麼大學畢業的我數德科技大學數科大對資訊管理系的是學士還是碩士學士而已學士嗯盤下這個茶葉行之前跟黃君先生就認識的這邊是蠻關鍵等一下我會再問她也是有資訊背景的對啊她該不會是同學同校的沒有啦她跟我差十歲她比你大十歲她大概幾歲的人啊她大概我十歲我現在三十歲她四十歲你們是因為有資訊背景才認識的然後她後來把這個盤給你"},{"start":290.793,"end":309.765,"text":"但是現在就是你用洪璋這個名字去標國防部的案子其實你們沒有合作關係單純就是你這邊跟你另外一個夥伴就是我們就是工程師會討論我們就兩個人而已啦所以他完全都跟他無關就對了只是有些事情會跟他請教對啊因為他真的就不是事業夥伴這樣子"},{"start":310.465,"end":338.08,"text":"事業夥伴我之前有聘他當員工幫我跑過對 幫我跑過幾個維修的點對 但他就是就是工讀生的部分這樣他要做你的工讀生沒有啦 就是因為我們就是用工讀生的時間上時速算 對啊就 但是就是不是正式員工你論見記仇的就對 他就不是因為畢竟他來幫我工作他說因為來工作要保勞保所以就不把他聘為正式的員工"},{"start":339.341,"end":355.118,"text":"我就是給您看一下這一段而已第一個我從這個投影片裡面看到幾個問題想要逐一跟部長您來請教首先呢這位負責人他有提到國防部在開標的時候他連開標都沒有去國防部打電話通知他標到了"},{"start":356.219,"end":377.898,"text":"開標當日確實廠商沒有義務一定要到場可是這個涉及精品性的標案在公開場合說出跟國防部的互動這樣的鑑別能力是否代表了我們從結果上看來這個查行得標的兩岸是有疑慮的再來您可能不知道在社群軟體上面他自己承認自己是人頭我想您可能不知道這件事情這是怎麼講的這個"},{"start":381.093,"end":395.058,"text":"其實還有另外一張啦反正總之他說反正我只是人頭應該也沒事吧沒有我也沒差吧不管今天他這個是諷刺自己他可能是他諷刺自己他說反正不管怎麼說都會有人說我是人頭啊頭砍下來給你們好了"},{"start":396.618,"end":423.857,"text":"他可能是諷刺自己但是無論他是陳述事實或是諷刺自己我相信他茶葉做得很好也很用心但今天如果我們的標案是什麼茶葉的禮盒年節禮品我一點意見都沒有但涉及到我們的資通訊的安全能夠在社群平台上面寫出就是跟國防部的這個互動嗎比如22小時之前我們跟國防部的人說了我們也可以廢標啊等等之類的"},{"start":424.637,"end":433.273,"text":"這些都是顯示出了這個茶行他在這樣子的一個資訊安全的標案上面他其實不具敏感性的喔再來他還說"},{"start":434.98,"end":464.101,"text":"他還會做很多事情啊除了賣茶葉之外學音樂、路跑、攀岩、潛水、熱炒店物流、會計、行銷還會織毛線這些東西都跟這個他所標到的案件一點關係都沒有那不斷的這樣子發言的過程只會讓大家覺得那這個茶行到底是因為這個老闆他有其專業還是他背後有人那我們看一下他其實在裡面有講到因為他大概有十分多鐘我沒有時間這樣一一去講"},{"start":464.741,"end":481.096,"text":"他的意思是說他們有兩個人那對方也不是他的員工但是他們看到標案呢就會去標標看他的原文是說好像可以標標看所以對於標到國防部的案子自己都不相信只跟一個所謂工程師到底是誰我們也不知道"},{"start":481.556,"end":500.687,"text":"在沒有股東沒有合夥人沒有實際員工的情況下他說公開說的他們兩個人賺請問我們是如何評估投票標準是否適宜不應該是不是只看對方的表面否則如果今天這個公司他洩密我們對這個公司完全沒有了解那對方是直接可以跑路的啊"},{"start":501.167,"end":511.734,"text":"那我想請問一下部長您剛看了這個負責人的影片之後您對於這個查行他所標到我們的兩項的資訊資安的維護案你覺得合宜嗎阿委員基本上我們是看廠商的資格那至於說他這個負責人他剛剛所講的裡面並不代表這個成為這個購案是不是成立的這個這個佐證因為我們是看廠商的資格"},{"start":530.666,"end":533.467,"text":"你去看廠商的資格對不對我下一個就要問你必須要再補充的這個案子海軍司令部有確認因為它這是一個系統的維護它不是機敏障礙那它系統維護都會把基本上那你們不是說他們也要進營區了嗎來我繼續問"},{"start":548.595,"end":567.154,"text":"這個小姐的說法公司只有兩個人他本人在做茶葉很忙所以他們是用臨時工而且他們沒有駐點的工程師是為了要省錢他們承包的案子叫做有人報休之後再找工讀生去請問類似這樣子約聘工讀生的狀況合適做你們剛剛所說的資安相關的尾運嗎合適嗎"},{"start":571.869,"end":587.784,"text":"所有的作業人員我們依據國軍的規定他不管找誰跟誰合作他進營區都必須要經過他提供名單提供這個施工人員名單我們國防部會做人員查核查核同意了那你們查核到黃鴻鈞先生有沒有進過營區了嗎"},{"start":591.465,"end":597.39,"text":"這個要問實際的這個來 我剛剛講工讀生是什麼樣的人來干擾我剛剛講嘛他說他會找工讀生去幫忙去維護嘛這個工讀生所謂維護資訊安全也就是他原本的負責人實際上過往真的有以資訊公司叫做軍威科技的黃鴻鈞來做投標的"},{"start":611.42,"end":627.749,"text":"可是這個黃宏鈞的軍威科技因為涉及三起三起偽造廠商資格投標包含 上面很清楚他投標立法院被發現有問題被拒絕給付 然後呢提告韓國瑜院長輸掉官司法務部也告他詐欺 判刑確定"},{"start":628.749,"end":657.584,"text":"在這個事情之後 軍威科技照理來說這個黃鴻鈞他要被列為黑名單結果他利用所謂查行盤給這個林姓負責人30歲年輕女生 我覺得他敢出來面對媒體 我也給他肯定但是呢 一下子是說兩個人沒關係一下說聘用黃鴻鈞先生作為公讀生那等於你把前負責人回聘進來又說是技術上的資源 甚至投標的地址是在黃鴻鈞先生的外公家"},{"start":658.544,"end":682.202,"text":"所以我想要請問一下那這個案子到底是黃鴻鈞在飆還是林小姐在飆啊跟委員報告一下第一個這個您講的那一家這個軍威公司它被停權的這個是從108年的5月24號到111年的5月23號那軍威公司從來沒有參與本部跟所屬單位的飆案"},{"start":682.782,"end":687.626,"text":"那關於你講的這個紅樟茶行呢他是在111年11月22號來決標的當時也沒有有任何這一個紅樟茶行被停權那你講的那個軍威公司他的停權的時間點也是在事實上是在108年的5月24號到111年的5月23號"},{"start":708.662,"end":736.569,"text":"那另外再跟委員報告因為這是一個150萬元以下為公告金額以下的一個採購案件所以我想他們這個部分如果按照這個規定採購法的49條的規定吧它是屬於這一個公開取得三家以上的廠商的素面的企劃書然後責符和需要者就辦理筆價或溢價的這個程序"},{"start":737.13,"end":737.731,"text":"都是完全依照公開"},{"start":741.026,"end":757.452,"text":"全部都是依照政府採購法的相關規定來辦我當然知道你們會說用政府採購法的相關規定來辦嘛但是我要講的事情就是說今天這個查行他來標這個案子他是不是掛羊頭賣狗肉你們自己可以看一下這個相關的判決113年度那跟立法院之間的告訴關係還有呢所謂的這個被這個法務部去提告的"},{"start":767.116,"end":791.858,"text":"那還有他們過程當中他們剛剛所自己陳述提出的跟他們在做維修維護的方式我要問的是不是你們當時說喔我當初我在開標的時候他們有沒有按照這個資料有沒有來然後給你審核完我問的是結果就是說從這個結果上來看他們用第一個取消駐點人員因為要省錢第二個把一家錢"},{"start":794.559,"end":822.367,"text":"這個資訊公司也就是黃鴻鈞的公司然後呢把他拿過來請他當工讀生進到我們的營區裡面來做維修第三個只是為了不要讓他保老保增加所謂的公司的開支再來呢這個他們登記的投標的所謂的投標他登記的地址是黃鴻鈞的外公家這些事情當時事前有做過查核事後我們回頭追溯這件事情的時候你們覺得他這樣子做合理合法嗎"},{"start":824.5,"end":836.124,"text":"包委員您剛剛講的他有一些投標遭受到一些刑罰的問題跟這個案子沒有關係他是軍威公司我知道嘛我說所以就是因為他出了問題之後所以這個查行然後呢他就呢我呢就把你聘用為你不要來投標用我本來的公司我把我本來的公司過給你林小姐"},{"start":847.808,"end":857.22,"text":"讓你林小姐去投標 林小姐得標之後那還是我黃鴻鈞來做但是呢 我又不想要讓我的名字在裡面出現所以呢 我就用公獨生的名義來負責這個維運他們的形勢狀況就是這樣啊"},{"start":861.324,"end":881.472,"text":"我想就鴻章公司來講他的營業項目也就是有資訊軟體的這一個相關的服務業的這樣子的營業項目那您提到的那個111年的海軍佐治部的案子是一個80萬的一個預算金額我都講的是茶行63萬9998元那這個也都已經經過驗收合格已經結案了"},{"start":889.435,"end":906.14,"text":"對 所以我在說你們的驗收你們的所謂的合格 你們的結案你們知道他沒有設駐點人員嗎你們知道他取消駐點人員是為了他自己說是為了要省錢嗎你們知道他們公司裡面是派工讀生去給你維修嗎他沒有告訴你這件事情嗎 你們知道嗎這個合約啊 據我們了解他是要完成這個系統的維護並沒有要求廠商要駐點"},{"start":914.765,"end":924.415,"text":"他本來有做註點的人員嘛但是呢他這個標的案子之後他就覺得好像也不需要了所以呢為了要省錢多賺一點他說他跟另外一個工程師他們想要兩個人賺這個錢嘛那不管怎麼樣我們是以合約執行期間那這個案子並沒有要求他註點至於說委員剛剛講他在標的之前他有註點那這個我們待會要查證"},{"start":937.048,"end":953.803,"text":"那再來就是說你所謂的用工讀生這件事情是為了規避投保他剛剛講了他為什麼要請工讀生去做維運而不是有一個固定的人專業的人去做然後呢是要用工讀生而且這個工讀生就是另外一家科技公司的老闆來做這件事情他講說不然我要幫他去保勞保"},{"start":954.824,"end":980.143,"text":"那我們的廠商 國防部的廠商弄成這個樣子 你覺得很合宜嗎 黃委員您請 不能以工讀生來判定他能不能這個執行 不是不是不是你沒有聽懂我的意思 他說他請工讀生的原因是因為他不想幫人家保勞保所以用這個方式可以節省他公司的開支那像這樣子的一個廠商 這個部分屬於勞資雙方對於 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這就是一個問題因為你們只單看比價你們沒有想要嘗試去了解說這家公司他的這個營運狀況他裡面有沒有一些問題像比如說他"},{"start":1129.56,"end":1144.429,"text":"他只有一個人然後呢沒有員工這件事你們事前知道嗎你們事前知道這家茶行來做我們的60萬100萬的維運資安維運裡面沒有其他員工嗎只有一個很忙的茶行的老闆娘你們知道嗎"},{"start":1145.109,"end":1150.872,"text":"包委員因為這是一個公開招標我們不知道包委員請聽我說包委員因為這是一個公開招標我們不會知道等一下開標的時候哪些廠商會來那但是我們開標的時候我們是針對廠商的這個資格來查那至於說開標之前我不知道紅章來我第一個我不知道紅章會來第二個我不知道紅章查他的這個裡面的這個他的成員是怎麼樣我們是以廠商資格為"},{"start":1172.623,"end":1179.886,"text":"是啊 但是你到時候進到營區的時候你們不都說會填他們的相關資料了嗎所以我剛剛問說黃宏鈞先生有沒有進到營區裡面去幫你們做相關的服務嘛有沒有嘛有 那你也知道有啊那你前面跟我講這麼多你為什麼不剛剛跟我說有呢所以我剛剛問說"},{"start":1192.21,"end":1213.375,"text":"問黃鴻章的時候 黃鴻鈞對不起黃鴻鈞的時候為什麼你不跟我說有就好呢實際上就是你們就知道這個黃鴻鈞先生他以工讀生的名義然後到了營區裡面去做這個資訊維護但是他先前就是鴻鈞科技老闆然後呢他把他原本的公司給了這個林小姐讓林小姐去標標完之後實際上在做的還是他自己"},{"start":1213.755,"end":1231.425,"text":"包委員真的我們開標的時候我們不會知道他過去這個負責人有更換怎麼樣的但是我們以現在你投標是誰哪個公司名義哪個負責人哪個這個他的公司的資格合不合規定那至於他過往你剛剛已經重複過我時間不夠你這個長話短說好不好請用書面回答已經超過十分鐘了好不好"},{"start":1237.788,"end":1254.637,"text":"拜託今天既然人家已經都把事情講出來了裡面有很多可能違反勞基法可能違反相關的一些法律或者是可能跟他當初投標的時候跟你們講的不一樣的地方都應該要好好的去做相關的查核可以嗎好 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依法行政我們通過了法律"},{"start":268.956,"end":289.122,"text":"你再這麼不喜歡你就是要做做了有什麼後果政治人物負責任以後選民不要選他以後負政治責任了這個才是民主國家來我們來看你就告訴我你現在115年編的統籌分配稅款台灣網是不是根據三月份通過的對不對對嘛那增加多少增加多少比去年增加多少比114年增加4198億"},{"start":300.39,"end":306.011,"text":"就是中央統籌分配稅款規模到8,874億可是你減少了一般補助款呢你減少了計畫補助款呢一般性補助款維持2,501億那計畫性補助款變一點點而已啊 對不對你的標是這樣子啊 所以這個要三個一起看啦三個一起看請問你增加多少就統籌加一般加計畫全部增加多少"},{"start":327.456,"end":343.499,"text":"呃 全部三項加起來是一兆一千六百八的三億增加多少了 增加多少比一百一四年增加一千五百五十二億增加一千五啦不是你講的四千多啦三個全部加起來我是說中央 您剛剛問的是中央統籌分配稅款所以我就中央統籌分配稅款來說明所以三個要一起看統籌加一般加計畫增加一千五百多億沒有你講的多偉大啦 四千多億啦來 第二個 第二個 因為我時間有限 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麻煩請國安局長 國防部長有請蔡局長 顧部長請局長首先"},{"start":19.128,"end":35.58,"text":"兩位早局長首先我們在今天的報告裡面有特別提到就是說在這個美日飛他的連演有將那個提風的這個中程導彈部署到日本的山口縣對不對局長"},{"start":39.95,"end":56.313,"text":"對 跟委員說明一下剛剛在那個專報口報過程當中有特別提到颱風飛彈不過它這個飛彈是它在演訓的時候它才會部署到委員關切的南溪諸島的部分平時並沒有部署在這個地方但一旦有在危機發生或演訓的時候所以它現在還在不在"},{"start":56.613,"end":59.715,"text":"現在不在 已經不在了 只是因為這個報導讓我們看起來會覺得說好像他還部署在那裡所以其實我們希望你在提供報告的或者說明的時候必須很明確因為這樣子會誤導我們所有的安全防衛的這樣子的一個概念那因為在最近大家都可以看得到不管是東海 台海"},{"start":81.188,"end":85.77,"text":"還有南海其實都發生比較可能激烈的一些狀況那我們也看到大陸對日本的軍演因為我們從上一次培洛西來台以後其實我們的壓力其實限縮的越來越大那也像現在周邊的區域其實也面臨到這樣的影響那我們現在對這樣的演習用比較簡單的方式可不可以提出來"},{"start":110.35,"end":111.932,"text":"因為剛剛有提到說美國對我們還是非常重視像台灣的地理地位在第一島鏈然後可是說台灣在最新的國家安全戰略裡面它的重要性也明顯的上升"},{"start":127.153,"end":139.626,"text":"可是美國卻把過去反對任何單方面改變台海現狀的表述把它改成不支持任何單方面改變台海現狀這個部分我想就剛剛提到的整體的狀況還有現在的一個狀況我們國安局延期的意見到底是什麼"},{"start":148.956,"end":175.275,"text":"大概跟委員簡單報告說明一下就因為中共在海空的武力的擴張近期確實是動作比較多簡單的說明 延期這個部分第一個部分就是在美國的這些公開的戰略文件當中大概都表達了對於第一島鏈安全的一個關注 第一部分第二部分是在串聯區域友盟應該要投注更多的一個國防資源來提升防衛的力量"},{"start":175.635,"end":195.215,"text":"那這也是剛剛在報告的時候提到美國印太戰略裡面有三個重要的支柱一個就是確保相關海域通道的暢通一個就是區友盟分擔防衛的責任第三個就是美國進行必要的前進部署所以整體的趨勢態勢大概是出現美盟有點在遏制中國的軍事擴張的這樣的一個基本的圖像"},{"start":195.874,"end":199.656,"text":"看起來局長剛剛說明似乎是這樣可是我們看到他現實的舉動並不是這樣做我們看到有很多過去包括航母艦隊包括他們的戰鬥機他們那時候在關島或者現在的中程導彈的一個相關的部署其實都是往後退而且都是退出"},{"start":216.647,"end":220.829,"text":"這樣第一島鏈的一個狀況就是過去跟現在其實你可能跟他比較的時間的長短我們現在要的是比較現實面的到底對我們會造成什麼樣的影響剛剛提出來似乎還是覺得是我們有受到他們還是有強化然後我們可能還是在這一方面其實還是可以跟郵盟還是可以信任美國可是我們看到的事實上的一個具體的狀況好像不是這樣"},{"start":246.661,"end":251.604,"text":"那接下來就我們目前區域的緊張態勢因為如果照這樣說它跟以前過去沒有太大的改變我們現在的很多的舉措或者我們現在對外的一個發表的一些相關的言論包括國防部還有包括我們現在想要提升的這樣的一個國防預算似乎都是不太融合的"},{"start":274.64,"end":278.081,"text":"他是背道而馳他說我在這裡先請教一下我們部長好了因為國防部近日對外有提到如果共軍突然行動國軍將採取所謂的去中心化的指揮然後不帶命令即可作戰我想要先請教一個基礎的問題國防部所稱的去中心化指揮它具體是指什麼"},{"start":300.044,"end":304.266,"text":"我想他要跟這個然後他 我把他問完他的制度依據跟適用的層級為何這個部長可以說明一下嗎是 我想我們的主要的重點都在於要讓各層級的部隊都要知道他上級給賦予的任務所以這叫做一個任務室指揮的概念"},{"start":321.514,"end":343.663,"text":"那麼他在這樣子的一個遂行他所必須被託物的任務的情況之下他要能夠進行這個就算沒有一個中心的一個給他的一個指揮的情況之下他仍然能夠遂行他的任務所以這是一個任務是指揮去中心化指管的一個概念"},{"start":345.219,"end":353.562,"text":"那所以他要應對各種的可能的一些狀況來做相對應的應變處置所以我再請教部長剛剛您說他大概的狀況嘛那是什麼樣的層級他是一個什麼樣的層級可以去做這樣的一個事"},{"start":369.309,"end":375.052,"text":"這個您講的是指狀況還是講成績如果成績不管是戰略 作戰 戰術都必須要大家都清楚自己的哪一個成績 我確認一個前提因為漢光演習跟學界其實這些都有討論過去中心化或者任務室的指揮"},{"start":394.798,"end":398.719,"text":"可是這些是不是都建立在戰爭狀態已經成立然後任務已經下達的前提之下是不是我想從灰色地帶的洗澡灰色地帶的洗澡也包含在應處的如何應處的範圍之內那我們會將灰色地帶洗澡分成低中高的這個強度他要隨時要應對這樣子的一個"},{"start":419.264,"end":422.727,"text":"我們先回答一個就好因為灰色洗腦是你們說的那大家不知道啊包括你的所有的作戰的這些軍事官兵他們的成績他沒有辦法很明確的知道請告訴我們"},{"start":437.279,"end":445.681,"text":"如果像剛剛去中心化或者任務是去中心化的任務是指揮這個是不是在建立在戰爭狀態已經成立而且任務已經下達的這個前提之下是或不是如果委員問的是這一段的話這一段所講的當然是在於突然發起攻擊的這個前提之下"},{"start":459.904,"end":476.901,"text":"但是在灰色地帶的這個應出上面我說的不是灰色地帶我想要請部長明確的回答像去中心化這樣的指揮體系是指戰爭已經成立是或不是我們在睡醒防衛作戰的時候會更強調"},{"start":477.822,"end":500.836,"text":"沒有 是或不是啦我們會更強調這樣的任務是指揮跟去中心化的執管所以是在戰爭已經成立了嗎就已經是拉動戰爭因為戰爭開始之後 我們的這個所謂的去中心化這個觀念要被強調的原因是因為共軍對我們的進行所謂的第一級的時候我們確實是比較有可能面臨這個狀況"},{"start":502.728,"end":528.075,"text":"你說說我們展開第一集還是共軍共軍展開第一集所以這個已經是戰爭成立嘛就您的說法應該是要更在戰爭發起的時候就被被打到第一集的情況之下我們更要強調這樣子的一個任務所以已經是戰爭成立的情況之下嘛你就已經被第一集已經受到恭喜不能夠排除灰色地帶的洗腦也有面對"},{"start":528.875,"end":530.697,"text":"這個土花狀況的一個處置的一個問題部長因為這些論述從來都不是用來授權基層單位因為你剛剛講的灰色洗澡或者什麼樣的一個狀況漢光演習或者其他學界早就有在討論這些然後也有類似的任務指揮"},{"start":549.448,"end":551.791,"text":"他並不是沒有這個指揮體系啦可是我們現在剛剛講的這些都從來沒有用在授權基層單位自行判斷是否進入戰爭狀態對不對"},{"start":565.702,"end":570.847,"text":"由基層單位去判斷說這個是不是進入戰爭狀態因為你說進入戰爭狀態以後你才會有去中心化這個問題那現在剛剛已經是明確這樣子那這樣子我們也沒有授權基層去判斷是不是戰爭狀態 對不對"},{"start":585.808,"end":602.299,"text":"我們應該如果委員講所謂戰爭狀態我不太確定說你講是指一個全面戰爭我們現在在這裡比較著重在於他受到軍事攻擊的狀態軍事攻擊就是已經進入狀態他當面就受到軍事攻擊嘛"},{"start":603.997,"end":626.744,"text":"這樣子很不清楚因為你們沒有授權基層去判斷戰爭狀態我想要請教是或不是是或不是基層可不可以去判斷是不是戰爭狀態我們之所以要強調這個也是因為我們所面對的威脅他所存在的狀態並不必然一定是在準戰爭狀態下的灰色地帶那你講一個具體的"},{"start":632.006,"end":652.12,"text":"我們的基層可以自行判斷是不是可以講一個具體的因為你現在已經分析過很多我們就是因為這個威脅存在所以才在平時的時候就要訓練我們的基層官兵理解到這些狀況之下的時候它可能存在哪一種狀態你講一個具體的嘛比方說此時此刻"},{"start":653.191,"end":678.816,"text":"共軍正在對我們做聯合戰備警訊如果我們等到這些狀態在瞬間由訓轉演 由演轉戰基層官兵還要等到我們中央再來給他指揮的時候那恐怕會來不及那所以我們在平常的時候就應該要訓練我們的基層的主官具備這樣的知識還有這樣的能力來面對共軍這樣子快速轉變的這個敵情變化謝謝"},{"start":681.764,"end":685.467,"text":"那你過去花了這麼多錢你未來還要花很多錢建立的這些連戰指揮系統或者你的情資因為只有為什麼我們要建立這些系統他就是因為你才能夠掌握全盤今天如果只有一個單純的基層他看到這個狀況比如說像之前日本的那個那個戰鬥機被鎖定的時候他有可能被打的時候那他可不可以這個"},{"start":711.184,"end":730.671,"text":"你們到現在我想簡單的跟委員我就幾句話我們強調去中心化就是說就是不管是軍事戰略層級或者是作戰層級或者戰術層級都在區中區分中心化的指揮跟分散式的管制跟去中心化的執行就要讓各級確實了解上一指揮官他的企圖那麼透過任務是指揮授權及責任區的賦予我們結合了交戰規則授權任務部隊因地制宜"},{"start":740.894,"end":744.425,"text":"要來果斷的遂行他應該互解他的一個任務"},{"start":745.95,"end":751.974,"text":"部長 這樣子我想基層分不出來你們剛剛講的基層分不出來我想先請教我們先請教部長那個不是演練的問題那是你在做決策的時候為什麼我們要有這樣的一個中心化的指揮那你要去中心化 那個可以可是你必須要很具體我先請教一下局長好了在共軍突然行動的時候比如說他強電池干擾"},{"start":774.827,"end":795.86,"text":"他通聯不穩的情況之下國安局是否能保證我們的情資可以及時完整的送達到第一線作戰單位作戰單位的情報的指揮跟分享可能還是國防部這邊那我們這邊主要是基於國安的層級的情報那會在高層決策的時候把這個整體的態勢做一個分析"},{"start":797.156,"end":802.24,"text":"所以他有可能這是國防部負責的嘛 對不對他的情資你判斷他的在強電池干擾或者通聯不穩的情況之下他是不是有辦法把情資完整的送到第一線的作戰單位回答是或不是我想國防部對於通訊任性的部分應該有他的相關整備計畫由國防部來說明會比較詳細一點"},{"start":822.523,"end":825.885,"text":"我們現在在講的是情資因為國安局對於情資是最清楚的我特別請教國安局是因為在極端的情況之下沒有辦法保證及時到位所以我們問的是非常關鍵的問題在沒有獲得上級確認敵情成立的命令之前基層是否被授權啟動武力行動"},{"start":852.948,"end":876.522,"text":"這個部分由國防部來回答好了在沒有獲得上級確認敵情成立的命令之前曾幾是否被授權啟動武力行動我們的基層跟委員報告如果委員一定要這樣區分的話我們可以分成兩個第一個就是我們還沒有遭受到真實的攻擊第二個是我們遭受到真實的攻擊委員意思是要問這一段嗎"},{"start":877.802,"end":892.709,"text":"那如果我們遭受到 因為你去中心化我們遭受到真實的攻擊那個攻擊狀態已經形成了所以你說是戰鬥狀態已經形成那我們在攻擊的狀態形成之後我們當然要設想最壞的狀況有可能我們的中心的指揮的體系"},{"start":894.107,"end":909.53,"text":"被斷掉啊所以我們現在想的就是一個最壞的scenario那如果至於是還沒有發生真實戰爭的狀態我們剛剛已經講我們會立即備戰操演二級這樣接不來 一級這樣接不來這個當然在還沒有受到攻擊的情況之下"},{"start":910.311,"end":928.451,"text":"當然我們的中心的指揮還存在我要的答案就是你剛剛一直在說明的所以不管他是不是由基層已經去在訊號中斷的情況之下訊息中斷或者指揮體系中斷的情況之下他可以自行去做判斷先決條件是已經發生戰爭"},{"start":930.814,"end":947.676,"text":"你的意思是這樣嗎對 已經被攻擊嘛所以因為我們為什麼今天要特別提出來我們在看看到國防部對外說可以去中心化的時候這個國軍快速反應的必要性而且離這個是非常重要的啦他在因為沒有辦法"},{"start":949.217,"end":952.2,"text":"去達到一個整體的一個指揮體系的時候他這個快速反應是很重要可是我們要釐清一個關鍵的界限就是哪些決策可以下放哪些決策絕對不可以下放去中心化這個軍事軍事上他確實存在啊"},{"start":967.794,"end":970.617,"text":"可是他只是用在戰爭狀態因為我們看出來看起來你在對外發表的時候好像在非戰爭狀態他如果受到什麼樣的攻擊他可以自行去也自己可以發動這樣的攻擊"},{"start":982.657,"end":1004.808,"text":"所以你明確的是說在戰爭狀態發生以後嘛對不對我想我們都是一個防衛作戰我們會進行所進行的都是一個自衛區的形式這個非常重要是當國防部對外使用去中心化並且搭配不符合命令即可作戰的這個說法的時候層級被混用了因為我們想要釐清的是這一點一旦"},{"start":1012.012,"end":1016.555,"text":"他的責任會被模糊掉一旦情資不完整或者通聯中斷最終可能把本來應該由國家承擔的風險國家才可以去做這樣子決策判斷的時候你把他轉嫁到基層的官兵身上所以我們才會討論在不在這個不是戰術的細節喔我們一直在確保戰爭判斷是到底是哪一個層級到底是在怎麼樣的一個界線底下去做的"},{"start":1042.052,"end":1048.624,"text":"所以你在對外說這個去中心化的時候必須要讓這個很清楚明白所以剛剛部長提到的就是已經戰爭發生了嘛這個我們想要明確這一點 是不是"},{"start":1054.581,"end":1059.284,"text":"我剛剛已經提到了就是說就是戰爭已經發生啦就是戰爭已經發生所以我們的基層可以自行去做判斷因為部長這個很重要你只要回答是或不是你的去中心化的說辭是這樣嗎我們在報告裡面已經提到是當遭受到突然發起攻擊的時候"},{"start":1074.492,"end":1076.294,"text":"所以我剛已經說明很清楚了在去中心化指揮的這種情況之下的前提當然是他在"},{"start":1087.099,"end":1092.663,"text":"攻擊的狀態之下的一個是比較應該是會發生的這樣可能的狀況最糟糕的情況會發生這樣的狀況因為你剛剛已經說明了就是戰爭啟動的一個狀態之下因為戰爭啟動是國家發生的這個對於後續追究責任的時候萬一有戰爭罪或其他的罪行的時候是很重要的所以不要把它推給基層的官兵"},{"start":1114.179,"end":1119.98,"text":"去中心化他就是在戰爭已經發生以後這是有國家層級必須要去承擔這樣子的一個責任跟風險我們今天要特別詢問的是這個那剛剛我也聽到有我們徐小新委員提到的這個問題我們再把它點出來這個不是合約的問題今天如果我們為什麼要分軍網跟民網為什麼我們有內網跟外網今天他的他的那個"},{"start":1142.386,"end":1152.135,"text":"招票金額雖然很低可是如果他隨便的一個人就是他們所謂不管你要不要用公讀生去定義他隨便一個人可以進到營區我們為什麼要花大錢去設警監系統我們為什麼要花大錢去買那個我們所有的無人機的監偵系統為什麼我們要嚴格的設軍網"},{"start":1166.969,"end":1171.211,"text":"花大錢在我們的資訊上面或者我們的電展電展室上面我們所有的全部都是要保護這個結果你因為他一個小案就是因為小案所以你不注意你不注意這個人就可以趁虛而入如果他想要攻擊他想要做駭客他想要有什麼其他的我們沒有讓他趁虛而入啊部長部長你把它聽完我們都會有人在那邊"},{"start":1192.603,"end":1197.046,"text":"然後呢我們當然也會做安全查核全程在那邊監控然後維護營區的安全跟他秘密的所在不會去嗎部長這幾天來你們一直都是在講這一個部分如果這樣子可以的話我剛剛提到的那些預算你都不用花你只要你在做什麼的時候旁邊有人看著就好這是我剛剛要特別提出來的這是兩件部長"},{"start":1221.599,"end":1223.44,"text":"那個不是兩件事到現在你還不知道它的重要性為什麼我們要做軍網跟民網的區隔你今天不管你海軍或者其他的他只要連上網他都可能可以做什麼樣的手腳"},{"start":1239.585,"end":1254.618,"text":"你們如果還要再解釋的是合約的內容或者那個對象一點都沒有把重點放在這裡如果是這樣好像你們也不需要太多的預算你現在有提到的是資安的部分資安的部分我們當然也會做查核啊這個要不要請同事再跟你"},{"start":1259.741,"end":1287.304,"text":"委員好 因為只要是涉及到資通設備的我們有訂辦一個國軍委外辦理資通系統服務的所有資安管控 軍網的網路是不是都可以連結除了非常機敏 軍網是不是可以連結如果我是一個高手我想要從裡面拿取資料會不會困難所以所以 國安局長國安局長回答這一題如果我們的軍網我們為什麼要做區隔如果有一個"},{"start":1288.505,"end":1296.589,"text":"高手他想要有什麼樣的情資他有沒有辦法從這裡去獲取有沒有辦法高手我們有沒有辦法有沒有辦法是有辦法但是只要是有我們要的是這個答案如果你今天有一個人在旁邊看著"},{"start":1306.516,"end":1310.498,"text":"都會有人看著那以後不要編預算了你在這樣的預算底下你根本不需要你只要旁邊有人看著你不需要再花大錢百億 十億這樣的預算去做這樣的治安管控如果是這樣被害不用到現場"},{"start":1327.845,"end":1330.588,"text":"今天為什麼我們不然我跟你講一個重要的概念今天我們營區進去為什麼要管制我如果有一個工作生我現在隨便一個人因為你如果是一個有信用的一個公司可以讓我們可以隨時追蹤的"},{"start":1347.288,"end":1350.59,"text":"那你當然會有一個對象你比較好管控嘛這是我們軍方跟其他的行政部會或者其他單位不同的地方今天你們一直今天也這樣照昨天也這樣照大家在乎的並不是你的合約是不是合法而是說你在軍方的管制本來就是比較重要的你的錢越少他越容易讓人家趁虛而入因為你覺得不重要所以我就可以進來"},{"start":1376.564,"end":1377.047,"text":"趁虛而入 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顯然就是說在降低顏料的成本跟支持在地的一個研發是可以幫台灣就是我們的台灣啤酒"},{"start":336.34,"end":362.31,"text":"另外再殺出重圍那我在這裡要特別跟那個部長做一個探討如果那個我們鼓勵青年返鄉穿越在鼓勵農產子的一個加值的話是不是應該就是對於這一些這一些在地在地因為農業本來就免稅可是你進到了這一個精量廠的時候有沒有辦法幫他們免稅"},{"start":365.146,"end":379.227,"text":"今天這個提案裡面有關啤酒花跟麥芽這個部分委員提案都建議關稅調降為零這個部分財政部立場認為是說因為可以降低關稅的負擔就可以降低我們國產啤酒的生產成本"},{"start":381.59,"end":388.256,"text":"那提高他的競爭力跟市占率我們認為他可以這樣子更好可以跟進口的啤酒來競爭而且我們也徵詢過農業部農糧署的意見對於國內的相關的農業產業並沒有影響所以在這個部分對於委員提案的有關降低關稅的部分財政部基本上是支持的也就是委員也提到就是說降低他們的一個生產成本讓他更有競爭力然後市占率可以提高以上"},{"start":408.414,"end":435.743,"text":"我在針對的這個副署長我再請教你那個農糧署副署長我再請教你一下就是說在未來是不是有相對應的一個配套的一個措施我們知道就是說這個啤酒花那個就是啤酒花已經在花蓮的農改廠已經開始試種了試種的效果也非常好那就是說本土的啤酒花如果就是可以有一個規模的一個產量的話"},{"start":436.983,"end":464.713,"text":"那就是把這個面積擴大還有加上補貼的話是不是有辦法就是說把這個農業的培育計畫跟產業的轉型就是把它就是做一個很大的提升有沒有機會你們有沒有這樣的一個氣魄那委員有講到因為大麥跟啤酒花這兩項都是溫帶作物那目前在國內他沒有一個"},{"start":465.904,"end":482.19,"text":"經濟的栽培規模所以對進口關稅調降的部分農業部農糧署是沒有意見那委員有講到我現在在問你就是說你的啤酒花是不是就是在花蓮農改廠已經試種成功了嘛那你可以擴大這個面積嗎這個部分農業部農糧署跟花蓮區農業改良廠他們在花蓮的玉林那邊你有沒有這樣的一個計畫啦"},{"start":492.475,"end":504.301,"text":"它已經有市中的災培那你要補貼嘛那是走特色化的部分我們會就本土的災培跟市中特色的部分也會加以輔導所以你的面積要擴大嘛我們會加以輔導加以輔導那是面積要不要擴大我們會看災培市中的情況來做輔導推廣"},{"start":512.185,"end":530.265,"text":"所以你現在站在這邊你也還是還在規劃中啊我想你提出計劃來好不好好這個我們會來規劃顯然現在我聽一聽好像也沒有看到一個比較特別因為這個本來就是已經就是培育成功了你當然要擴大面積啊不然你怎麼讓他減稅呢那你怎麼扶持國內的那個啤酒產業呢"},{"start":534.289,"end":536.992,"text":"我們會來規劃因為這個部分花蓮去農改廠在花蓮已經有示眾我們會來看示眾的情況再做推廣再接著我想再請教一下財政部長就是說有一則外媒的廣告就是美國關稅的豁免到底是善意還是一個漏洞"},{"start":553.593,"end":568.697,"text":"我們要謹慎就是說川普川普他是不是會鎖定台灣的一個半導體那他這裡頭講到了一個說美國自台灣進口的商品只有23%是被徵收緊急的關稅然後"},{"start":570.798,"end":593.102,"text":"在42%的商品裡頭獲得豁免的關稅那另外35%是試用就是貿易擴張那個貿易擴張法的第232條那部長我在這裡要請教目前我們有沒有盤點哪一些商品是被課稅的又有哪一些商品是被豁免的就你所知"},{"start":594.948,"end":608.854,"text":"有關台美關稅的相關的談判目前行政院的談判的代表都還在持續的沒有錯我想他們這個部分如果有最後的結果一定會跟社會來做報告這些被課稅的到底是哪些產業"},{"start":615.336,"end":636.135,"text":"你不可能都完全不知道那課稅的當然目前來說台灣輸美的部分就是所用暫時關稅是20%也就是N加20%這樣的來課稅也就是這樣有一些也是0%的譬如說像晶片的話我們的集體電路這些都是進口關稅因為是用232條款目前來說在赴美的條款關稅稅率還是0"},{"start":641.48,"end":669.776,"text":"那到底有42%的商品是获得豁免的关税吗这个有没有包括就是我们的半导体这42%有没有包括我们的半导体我想这个部分都还在目前谈判的当中那当然试用232条款的部分当然还是目前来说还是维持试用232条款如果试用在232的话它就有35%的商品那试用在232的话又是哪些商品"},{"start":670.396,"end":683.516,"text":"部長可以跟我們說明一下嗎這個部分可能相關的細節蠻多的232條款適用的商品來232適用的那個商品可以誰回答我我們看一下我們手邊的資料"},{"start":687.081,"end":707.496,"text":"你們怎麼不會就是說我們就是備詢的時候才特別去關心到232到底是哪些商品財政部232的部分有鋼鋁 汽車還有一些汽車的一些配件還有一些木製品 銅製品等等大概應該將近有10項左右"},{"start":708.456,"end":736.212,"text":"是啊所以說這些商品的話事實上就是說其實都是非常多的就是說等於是你可以告訴大家這個是一個利多他們是不會被課到稅的是不是這樣子我可以不可以這樣講232的條款跟這次的對等關稅是不一樣課232的就不會課對等關稅所以232能不能獲得豁免那可能還是要雙邊談判"},{"start":738.388,"end":757.378,"text":"232已經是會被豁免的那個貿易擴這個應該是很清楚了你再這樣贏了為大家又引起市場的恐慌你這樣回答的話是不是所以部長我想就是說所以我們回答得非常謹慎"},{"start":758.439,"end":785.804,"text":"所以這有關台美關稅團你們就是非常的謹慎過度的謹慎每一次都引發市場的一個緊張當然就是說我想就是針對的半導體如果未來有進行到課稅的話財政部你要如何因應那我想提供一些那個就是你們的那個因應的資料跟本席在這裡我這樣子跟就是財政部要這些資料好不好"},{"start":786.304,"end":793.011,"text":"再提供书面的音音资料给赖委员谢谢谢谢委员谢谢谢谢赖会员委员"}]}},{"id":"166466","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166466","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0478a13f8499067d95e98c45d87103670fbddbc901a86fecf4dbbcf117f4815fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:55:12 - 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謝謝這位助理現身發聲剛剛有教授談到說他在監察院待過我們來看一下現在在這個相關的預算書裡面呢到底助理費用是怎麼被立法院的預算這邊定義的呢他說按月撥付委員公費助理酬金"},{"start":141.858,"end":157.973,"text":"協助委員處理各項問政服務選民按月撥付黨政黨團公費助理酬金協助各個黨團辦理政黨運作相關事宜什麼叫做酬金我們來看一下所謂酬金就是指僱傭契約的薪資或者是承攬契約委任契約的報酬所以他當然"},{"start":160.896,"end":178.895,"text":"他當然就是現在所謂的這個人事費用而不是什麼助理費助理費三個字可以解決所以我想立法院自己已經說得很清楚而且這是立法院的預算書那總共在113個立法委員身上會花掉多少錢呢我們即將變成千萬立委的情況下國庫要支出8億多"},{"start":180.276,"end":202.491,"text":"每一個立法委員會拿到將近一千萬就是快要八百萬的這個數字我不知道人民怎麼看我們所選出來這113個立法委員即將變成千萬收入的人我覺得非常的荒謬剛剛有非常多專家學者提到幾個重要的關鍵公款公用專款專用簡據核銷還有勞權保障這個原則上我絕對是贊成所以我想先說結論"},{"start":203.712,"end":229.233,"text":"第一個 我主張應當保障所有公費助理的勞動權益剛剛林志傑老師也有提到了我也支持所有的公費助理站出來為自己的權益發聲跟這些不當的法案對抗請不要再聽陳玉珍瞎扯說我們可以提出再修正動議結論就是到了禮拜五的院會我們根本不知道會收到什麼樣的再修正動議我堅決反對 因此我呼籲陳玉珍直接撤案"},{"start":230.114,"end":257.429,"text":"重點說三次陳玉珍直接撤案直接撤案直接撤案就對了沒有什麼可以談的我要說這一次關於制度的問題良知的問題可能是陳玉珍傅昆齊等人不想談的韓國瑜也不敢面對的到了助理公會的協商會議上他連簽名都不敢簽名他說了一段不知道說什麼的廢話所以我要說當陳玉珍提案要把助理費變成民貸薪資的一部分的時候就是把助理費變成立法委員自己的小金庫"},{"start":259.45,"end":283.079,"text":"這麼簡單明白的道理但是他卻迴避回答再來如果委員不聘請助理那請問立法院還要把這筆錢撥給立法委員嗎上個禮拜的質詢立法院已經回答了答案是是的我再說一次上禮拜質詢王一川委員問立法院相關單位問說如果立法委員沒有請助理請問這八百萬一樣會入到立法委員的戶頭嗎答案是是的"},{"start":283.679,"end":299.539,"text":"所以這當然就是小金庫喔再來陳玉珍提案助理費要明帶統籌分配不用減去核銷說這是外國先進國家的先例錯大錯特錯以美國的案例來說他就是要減負核銷公開透明上網而且"},{"start":300.06,"end":315.655,"text":"沒有用完還要繳回去我再說一次國外相關制度非常清楚的說明但陳玉珍只說他要說只聽他要聽的更荒謬的是當我們把這些錢送進民代的口袋的時候如果不用檢據核銷不用公開透明上網"},{"start":316.656,"end":332.017,"text":"剩餘的款項也不用繳回去那就是放任所有名義代表愛怎麼花就怎麼花愛怎麼用就怎麼用助理你要怎麼對待就可以怎麼對待上個禮拜的質詢裡面我親口問法治局局長你怎麼看你自己寫出來的報告"},{"start":333.098,"end":354.189,"text":"他被我問完之後他說他也坦承現在對國會公費助理的保障確實不夠他心中最深的聲音叫做他也認同應該要對公費助理的保障更進一步那我問他你為什麼要寫出這樣的報告是誰授意你寫出這樣的報告過往從來沒有一個法治局局長自己掛第一作者"},{"start":355.029,"end":374.062,"text":"出一份報告為什麼你要做這個事情他當然沒有辦法回答我們不為難相關公務人員但我們要問長官受益這個長官到底是誰而這樣的做法真的可以照顧所謂的公費助理嗎更還有人說這叫做進步我不知道進步到哪裡去了我要說陳昀臻這個提案"},{"start":375.063,"end":402.286,"text":"就是讓每一個民意代表每一年爽爽的領數百萬的自肥提案是一個創造貪污破口的提案是一個踐踏公費助理勞動權益的提案剛剛還有人說公費助理沒有一定要博士才可以當但是我們看到了有助理告訴我們這個工作對他們來說不僅有專業性還有神聖感就以我辦公室自己為例我們曾經有各式各樣的法案助理不管現職的還是在職的"},{"start":403.647,"end":432.317,"text":"不是只有熱情也不是只有專業甚至有很多國會公費助理是有律師資格的是有相關高考資格的他們但是他們基於對立法的熱情他們選擇在這個工作上持續付出持續付出不代表要被持續踐踏我再說一次他們持續的付出不代表他們要被持續踐踏當你們口口聲聲說要照顧年輕人的時候卻在糟蹋這一群在立法院跟我們一起工作的年輕人請問這樣要對誰可以交代的過去"},{"start":433.397,"end":449.965,"text":"以前我們在公民課上告訴國中生告訴小學五六年級的孩子們說法律是道德的底線但很可惜我看到陳玉珍的提案到目前為止不撤案這根本不是所謂法律是道德底線的體現而是根本就是道德淪喪毫無底線"},{"start":450.885,"end":464.44,"text":"我再說一次道德淪喪毫無底線才會提出這種破爛法案所以我要感謝所有為自己站出來的助理工會的助理們我也要說相關幹部的聲明其實已經有很多助理是表達不滿的"},{"start":465.862,"end":486.825,"text":"也希望相關幹部可以持續站在協助公費助理的權益上持續發聲我相信有非常多的立法委員會願意跟大家站在一起我要再度呼籲所有有提案連署的委員撤案撤遷陳玉珍 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謝謝趙偉請我們交通部林次長 請次長還有我們觀光署陳署長 請陳署長香港局葉局長也上來 請葉局長還有港務公司的周董事長委員長陳署長好沒有關係沒有關係叫他慢慢來"},{"start":33.257,"end":55.451,"text":"好市長還有我們董事長還有我們局長我在看今天我們主席對時間的控制非常嚴謹所以我希望本席在執行的過程當中我希望我們就針對問題來回答問題不要拐彎抹角那一點意思都沒有好 首先"},{"start":56.351,"end":71.77,"text":"我要談的也是早上我們洪孟愷早尾已經談過利心遊人 臨時改變航行這個部分到底你們現在的監督機制到底是什麼來 請說明 來 次長"},{"start":74.805,"end":101.028,"text":"包委員 我們要求郵輪進來台灣要做好航程的預告跟消費者的報告是啦 現在他已經有預告嘛一開始我現在接到一個陳情就很簡單嘛他本來就是要去菲律賓跟越南的航線嘛那臨時20幾天以前就變更到沖繩嘛那問題沖繩他已經去過五六次了"},{"start":102.133,"end":127.768,"text":"那我本來是喜歡立新郵輪我喜歡去菲律賓喜歡到越南的航線也就是我們今年11月份剛到菲律賓跟這個越南的航線你怎麼臨時又更改要到沖縣去呢所以他現在很納悶把它規劃好了結果你臨時又通知我就這個部分"},{"start":128.789,"end":156.839,"text":"市長還有我們觀光署還有包括我們航港局跟那個那個周董事長這裡你們到底有沒有了解有沒有了解我也知道你們一直在那個那個促進啊這整個郵輪啊跟遊艇的發展啊可是怎麼會變成這樣呢市長這件事你有了解嗎報委員有掌握有掌握喔好那現在如何去如何去善後我"},{"start":158.339,"end":161.641,"text":"我是不是先請觀光署來跟 報告一下委員好立行郵輪已經有提出那個補償方案他現在有三個方案一個是你不要跟我講這些補償方案都有啦他也可以退票啦問題是這樣我規劃好我要到菲律賓你臨時跟我更改這個補償這個制度都有可以不可以這樣"},{"start":183.095,"end":209.256,"text":"可以不可以这样我们之后的那个定型化契约其实会纳入规定里面那应该是不是啦这跟你们监督有关嘛你跟人家契约形成你最起码的话你要更改是要经得人家同意嘛那现在我刚才已经讲过我已经Okinawa已经去过五次了你还要再叫我去那里那这个部分我要拜托"},{"start":212.019,"end":238.199,"text":"針對這個問題發展立新郵輪是OK的但是在監督的部分你們要約法三章啊不能因為我們要刺激這整個港口整個立新郵輪的這些輪船的發展可是你最起碼你不能去欺騙啊什麼航線就什麼航線怎麼會臨時更改我要的是你們監督機制事情已經發生當然它合約裡面"},{"start":239.74,"end":258.111,"text":"裡面定的很清楚喔是不可以抵抗二類天后他才可以去更改啊合約裡面從來沒有講說我可以隨時變更這個形成的問題啊所以我要的是你們監督機制事情已經發生了監督機制如何去處理"},{"start":263.689,"end":291.461,"text":"跟委員報告立新郵輪的品牌還不錯他也會珍惜他的品牌然後第二個就是我們的建設技術剛剛市長也特別承諾了就是有三個月嘛三個月內的相關這是一個個案那我們是希望說這不是個案有一件就有兩件我們三個不管是觀光署或是是航港局或是我們港澳公司都有在協助啦那我想這件事情應該是好這裡面又延伸一個問題啦"},{"start":292.922,"end":316.834,"text":"這裡面高雄市政府啊又跟立新郵輪配合這個什麼這個共同行銷的問題也就是做高鐵什麼優惠住飯店什麼把它連結起來就變成什麼高雄市政府的好意也就是要推銷郵輪觀光嘛那這個部分那我不去啦"},{"start":317.834,"end":333.641,"text":"是 立新郵輪可以退會但是我到底在這裡住的飯店或訂的飯店或者我到底連接起來可以不可以退可以不可以這是可以的 那個請局長來說"},{"start":335.8,"end":352.045,"text":"這個報告委員這個部分我們有洽立新郵輪公司了解他們已經承諾這個旅客的損失這個有這個具體的損失他們都願意全額退款是啦 局長我跟你講 次長你要督促一下這個是有連貫性的"},{"start":352.845,"end":379.602,"text":"也就是高雄市政府陳市長一個品牌他的好意是要郵輪觀光發展來做促銷但是他這裡違約以後我後面這些的行程這個你們還是要督促所以這個跟監督有關所以我要拜託這個部分你們已經答應三個月要把它解決但是一定的這個跟監督跟督促有關"},{"start":381.103,"end":407.029,"text":"說實在不是發展發展就頑固旅客的這些權利基本上是不可以的 好不好好 接下來兩岸觀光的逆差這一點我坦白講這個可能陳署長這裡還是要注意但是接下來我們國家又成立一個什麼觀光國家隊我說實在的我不瞞各位說"},{"start":408.169,"end":415.897,"text":"我在義式殿堂 我說實在我對於只要有國家隊 我是非常沒有信心以前口罩國家隊 也不行什麼這個 力能國家隊再來詐騙國家隊 可是越詐越騙所以我現在對於這些觀光國家隊 說實在"},{"start":431.804,"end":449.033,"text":"稀有其名啊說實在的我是沒有信心但是在這個部分我要拜託次長跟署長既然設了國家隊就跟別的國家隊不一樣所以你看兩岸觀光都逆差耶我們到大陸去450萬人"},{"start":451.934,"end":479.43,"text":"大陸來這裡只有50萬人這種比對啊 這個逆差啊真的 我們要去當然這個是牽涉到跟政策有關可是最起碼的話既然成為賴總統要成為2030成為一個國家隊這個幾兆的觀光財說得容易啊 要做得困難所以這一點 我要特別提醒"},{"start":480.526,"end":497.407,"text":"我們林次長還有特別提醒我們陳署長這個部分開會我們就要把它講清楚結構不改變觀光怎麼會破照啊所以不要只有稀有其表這個沒有什麼意義所以我要拜託林次長"},{"start":498.208,"end":516.109,"text":"在這個觀光的部分 既然要成立一個國家隊我們也支持啊 我們也贊成啊但是千萬不要龍頭蛇尾也要有什麼 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大家一起上來好了免得等一下節省時間"},{"start":26.801,"end":51.153,"text":"今天我們就首先先來持續關心這個清泉崗台中國際機場的這個航線的問題那個局長我想你知道嘛我每次看到你都在討論台中到底接下來可以再增加哪些航線航點那局長明年啊這個明年啊"},{"start":53.26,"end":67.444,"text":"過去我們一直在談 關西好不容易我們爭取到了新與非的神戶那關東的部分 東京本席一直在期待也一直在要求 也一直在爭取那何局長 明年你覺得東京怎麼樣跟委員報告 謝謝委員關心"},{"start":73.24,"end":89.898,"text":"那我想台中有關東京的部分明年初的話是會先有一個宮古島然後明年的夏季板表的話我們會讓他盡量是不是就朝向這個東京的部分好 所以星宇飛機沒有問題啦"},{"start":92.381,"end":107.762,"text":"因為我也知道我也跟星雲航空拜託過他們也覺得運量沒有問題但現在是日防對於相關落地的作業他們人力不足啦等等其他的因素這個民洋局可以協助來溝通嗎"},{"start":110.158,"end":125.181,"text":"這個部分我們在都一直會透過持續管道業者有去申請的部分我們會透過我們的管道再跟日方來表達這個我想一定要民防局來協助業者本席溝通他們很有意願非東京的部分他們很有意願"},{"start":126.431,"end":147.487,"text":"那所以時間點不可能在不可能在這個3月之前不可能吧夏季班表不可能在3月之前不可能 跟委員報告因為我們國際線都分冬季班表跟夏季班表那冬季班表就是10月份到明年的3月沒有錯沒有錯夏季班表就3月以後如果可行更好啦因為"},{"start":148.388,"end":169.575,"text":"三月的棒球經典賽在東京舉行所以更多的鄉親遊客都很希望有便捷的航空運輸可以來搭乘不過我也知道接下來我們就要靠夏季班表所以一定過了經典賽的時間本席看了一下新宇航空在台中各個航線的載客率"},{"start":173.571,"end":197.816,"text":"我看一下澳門80 神戶88 沖繩89然後富國島82 高松74這個最糟糕也有74所以可見台中這個需求量很高所以我還是覺得說有時候不是民意代表大家不斷地去爭取一些讓航空公司會虧錢"},{"start":199.568,"end":225.947,"text":"我覺得邏輯不應該是這個樣子在民航局思考或者航空公司思考這些航線的時候應該要考量它實際的這個市場的這個需求像台中幾乎你看這個除了高中那四國是相對比較日本是鄉下一點那你看主要以神戶來講都接近九成都接近九成的這個載客率所以這個對"},{"start":227.929,"end":250.864,"text":"對整體的運輸來講 運量來講它需求存在嘛所以本席會一直期待為什麼台中因為你明明有市場但不要因為這個政策或者其他的問題去耽擱了嘛那本席 那個市場那個過去我們這個在疫情前這個華信航空"},{"start":252.032,"end":272.93,"text":"在台中很多这个过去本席还为了让华信航空留在台中作为他的母基地我们还做了很多的努力包括兴建很多硬体的设施但是疫情后华信航空因为飞机数量不足所以就明显的几乎可以说退出了台中的市场让我们大家都觉得很可惜"},{"start":273.7,"end":291.196,"text":"那我知道明年這個華航要交付兩台噴射客機給華信所以明年華信又有兩台新的噴射客機那可不可以本席爭取至少一台可以從台中來飛其他的新的這個新增的新的航線可以嗎"},{"start":294.838,"end":313.343,"text":"华信前一阵子因为飞机数比较不够您了解那华昂也确实答应有两架应该是320等级的飞机会来提供给华信来服务所以我们会请华信来评估它目前的运能状况来安排"},{"start":314.143,"end":335.923,"text":"市場是一定有啦就我從數據嘛這個是今年一到十月的數據從數據來看台中的需求明明就存在但是我希望說像華信這種都是國家交通部在裡面有相當的主導的權利那有市場但不要在政策不要去干預啦"},{"start":336.764,"end":353.705,"text":"希望政策應該不是不要干預政策應該是要支持這明明台中就有市場為什麼不把華信航空讓他去飛台中華信可以賺錢台中中部地區的旅客可以得到這個便捷的交通但是大家都贏嘛"},{"start":354.546,"end":373.297,"text":"所以我知道高雄最近增很多啦但是台中的市場明明就有需求存在所以本席這個強烈主張跟建議這個新的華信航空應該有一輛應該至少回復疫情前就算兩樣都給台中都還回復不了疫情前"},{"start":374.398,"end":398.134,"text":"那本席認為最少應該有一輛要留在台中有一台飛機要留在台中去做這個運輸的工作好不好你們趕快請這個華信跟華航做一個妥善的評估啦因為台中真的我們很需要啦很需要所以拜託一下那另外這個我想請問這個董事長本席上一次在質詢台上有問過我們這個"},{"start":399.871,"end":415.382,"text":"這個海線地區的鄉親對於大型量販店的這個需求其實盼望殷切那上一次你們也告訴本席說有大型量販店正在評估而且有相當的興趣"},{"start":416.533,"end":435.062,"text":"那我看最近台中市政府又宣布大型量販店要捨棄台中港要放在那個大家會覺得會癱瘓台灣大道的那個東海大學對面的那個台中經濟的舊廠子那本席不知道這兩個的你們市政府講的跟"},{"start":436.089,"end":453.272,"text":"港務公司本席爭取你們回答我的是不是同一家大型量反正大型量很多嘛我不知道是不是同一家市政府公布的是好事多嘛那你們上一次回答本席說有本席爭取的你們已經有一個眉目了那是不是同一家"},{"start":454.674,"end":472.48,"text":"跟委員報告因為市府那個部分我們沒有跟他特別去確認啦那但是確實我們承諾委員的部分也確實是這一家這一家是其中之一也是好事多是之一還是因為我們是要招商迎客那"},{"start":473.42,"end":501.197,"text":"我上任之後也特別寫了信給總部的CEO希望能夠他們能夠看重台灣然後看重我們台中港然後我們這邊其實未來的捷運站跟我們的山景奧類可以做一些串接是特別特別有表達所以董事長我的意思就是說這個是定案了嗎以好事多因為大型量亂很多以好事多而言好事多是已經決定"},{"start":502.798,"end":523.449,"text":"呃不要在台中港要在東海大學對面那個台灣大道沒有沒有沒有也沒有目前沒有好所以我們還是台中港還是有機會是是那董事長本席要再一次拜託是這個你一定要積極去爭取是是條件啊以台中市你看這個市民的反應而言條件台中港絕對比台灣大道那裡好"},{"start":524.269,"end":552.944,"text":"不是那個地方不好那個地方剛好在山坡半山腰嘛但是它在台灣大道的旁邊台灣大道已經是台中人的噩夢了因為塞車的狀況很嚴重所以你又把它大型廟室又設在那裡這個本席認為並不是太妥當的地點所以台中港路大條都可以來做好不好非常有潛力的這個再麻煩你一下最後一個其實很重要但因為時間已經到了但本席還是提一下"},{"start":554.927,"end":581.362,"text":"這個 來 我們看一下 這個這個是在社群平台上面發生的飛機上面 行動電源我已經問過很多次了行動電源爆炸燃燒在飛機上面空服員要拿水去澆鋰電池然後呢 幸好市組機警阻止空服員市長跟局長鋰電池爆炸燒起來了應該要怎麼滅火"},{"start":583.656,"end":604.133,"text":"包圍這個航空業對這個很敏感基本上鋰電池或充電電池要用要泡在水桶裡面或者是用防火毯包住以後再放在固定的箱子裡面才可以不能用水去攪也滅不掉所以這個我們有要求航空公司要特別注意也要準"},{"start":605.273,"end":631.979,"text":"所以市長你的意思是說當飛機上面鋰電池燒起來了這時候旅客不應該拿水先給它滅不應該不是正確的處理方式你覺得正確要怎麼處理應該拿防火毯或是相關的避免被燒傷的東西然後準備一個水桶泡到水桶裡面去所以我們的所有交通部的載具裡面高鐵 台鐵"},{"start":634.033,"end":652.46,"text":"所有的飛機上面都有水桶嗎包委員我們目前都有要求至少要備防火毯那水桶的話飛機上是有的我看了一下你們這個國際冥想組織你們把它翻譯成中文你們這個國際冥想組織說飛機上行動電源的滅火關鍵是水是水啦"},{"start":656.687,"end":682.365,"text":"但是是要整個泡進去所以也沒有防火毯所以到底是要怎麼滅這個行動因為現在行動電源太多了大家隨身攜帶都是帶行動電源那再來它燒起來之後你是要用手去拿還是要準備防火的手套然後把行動電源放到水裡面我的意思就是說為什麼這個問題很嚴重但時間因為到了這個邏輯上你們應該第一個"},{"start":685.437,"end":706.371,"text":"滅火的知識是什麼就是到底水澆可不可以因為我看了一下相關的報導有一派是說先用大量的水去澆然後接著用防火的手套去把它拿起來丟到水桶裡面去這個是我現在看到國際上有一些報告它的程序是這個樣子"},{"start":708.517,"end":737.323,"text":"那現在呢就他們不覺得防火毯是有效的然後第二個他不覺得說他不會覺得說用水澆是不對的他是認為說水澆再撿起來丟到水桶他需要用大量的水來冷卻因為他不是靠氧他是化學反應沒錯所以基本上是降溫泡在裡面第一個時間水燒起來的時候我現在還沒有水桶什麼都沒有我先用水澆可不可以"},{"start":738.281,"end":760.317,"text":"我請局長說明一下來 局長說一下跟委員報告其實這一些空服組員都有授訓就是說他們會有一個授訓的機制基本上立刻發生的時候他會戴防火手套如果可以是直接他的水桶他會把飛機上所有可能的水咖啡 不能是酒所有的水放在一個不會有人倒酒 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葉協榮局長請葉局長朝委長次長有關於高雄旅運中心以及整體高雄郵輪觀光發展的一個推動我們先從細節來談我們的高雄旅運中心有旅客來訪問相關的長者"},{"start":32.301,"end":49.71,"text":"引髮族或是行動不便的朋友搭乘郵輪本來是郵輪最便宜他們的搭乘郵輪的觀光但是我們的旅運中心對於相關的行動不便的朋友或者是長輩在"},{"start":52.216,"end":76.945,"text":"要搭乘郵輪的時候竟然沒有專屬的這樣或者是優先的一個通道這造成很大的不便那當然我也清楚這都是由船公司他們來做一個主動的安排相關的這些通道的程序但是我們必須檢視這個流程對於相關的長者或行動不便的朋友他們搭乘郵輪"},{"start":77.665,"end":95.766,"text":"沒有專屬跟優先的這樣的一個通道造成他們很大的一個不便而且也沒有專人的來做引導更別說我們對於相關的人員服務人員的教育跟訓練也是不足這個部分請周永輝董事長說明一下"},{"start":98.532,"end":124.851,"text":"謝謝召委的這個質詢因為我們也內部也確實也檢討那基本上我們是雙軌制就是船一方面提出申請二方面我們在這個路側的部分其實也可以主動那原則上我們高雄旅運中心是很大的所以它的那個動線都沒有問題那我們也經過事後的一個檢討發現我們可以就是直接設包括老幼"},{"start":125.712,"end":152.623,"text":"都可以優先那我想這個部分的話我們是沒有問題必須要做積極的改善那我們對於高雄郵輪觀光發展的推動其實我是非常不滿意在2025年的時候當然我也提出爭取的高雄港相關的國際郵輪的一些獎勵的方案包括一層多港的郵輪它碼頭的定泊會全美或是高雄港作為郵輪母港"},{"start":153.243,"end":179.121,"text":"我们相关的旅客服务会也是全美的一个优惠甚至是全年度达到一个目标的航次高雄港是五航次它的旅客服务会五折但是我们看2023到2025高雄邮轮的这种旅运的人次受到疫情的冲击在疫情之后虽然逐渐的恢复但是进度缓慢远远不及基隆港"},{"start":179.861,"end":200.993,"text":"那相關的我們再來看2026的郵輪預報甚至我們比2025年的預報總燒次還少了20燒次那次長還有董事長或者是這樣的一個優惠方案我認為是明年度應該要增加來先請董事長說明一下"},{"start":202.313,"end":227.058,"text":"跟委員報告一下優惠措施是很重要啦那其實還有兩件事很重要優惠的部分跟委員直接報告就是說我們會滾動式檢討那原來的優惠還是會會不會增加 除了為此之外會不會增加有沒有其他的優惠方案我們正好也提了一個五年計畫116到120的五年計畫那我想這個部分我們再做一些檢討那最重要的其實還是"},{"start":228.058,"end":257,"text":"怎麼樣後面的這個郵程的這個連結這個部分才是非常重要那我們希望能夠把跟港市做更多的連結跟商圈做更大的連結我提醒一下周董事長不只是要維持目前的方案而且要提高它的優惠來增加其他的優惠的方案讓整個高雄的郵輪的旅客人士能夠明顯的增加高雄港當然有它的優勢高雄港"},{"start":258.7,"end":285.478,"text":"我們的國際空港或者是國際郵輪港的雙門戶的這樣的一個優勢那當然它鄰近高雄的小港機場它轉成便利那周邊的觀光資源也非常的豐富其實具備發展Five Cruise的這樣的一個條件那在業者方面我也看到相關的高雄港出發的郵輪母港的這些航程"},{"start":286.919,"end":311.281,"text":"郵輪公司跟旅行社也積極推動這種外戰市場的這種銷售來吸引這種Fight Cruise的旅客不管是從菲律賓、越南或者是新加坡來台來搭船那這個未來要持續的推動Fight Cruise這樣的一個郵輪市場那我們目前相關的這些規劃的情形"},{"start":312.262,"end":327.746,"text":"爸 你請簡單說明一下是 針對Flight Cruise部分我們也針對這個再優惠除了剛剛委員關心的優惠措施之外如果是Flight Cruise的話我們還甚至全船的旅客再減免每個旅客再減少這個服務費100個元"},{"start":329.907,"end":349.838,"text":"那麼我們覺得其實除了委員剛剛提的幾個市場之外我們也發現德國市場的Flight Cruise是有成長的趨勢那我們覺得歐洲線這個部分我們覺得也是可以開源的一個重要的來源董事長我有幾個具體的要求我們高雄港是郵輪重鎮的"},{"start":352.54,"end":376.669,"text":"具體的目標其實一開始台灣在推動郵輪的這樣的一個亞洲郵輪市場的發展我們就期待交通部能夠把高雄港建立成亞洲的邁阿密但這樣一個目標其實還是距離非常的遙遠那我有幾個具體要求我們要具體的優化持續的優化相關的旅運場站的這些設施"},{"start":377.569,"end":394.643,"text":"而且2025年的這一些我所提出的優惠方案要持續 而且還要精進各種優惠的方案來增加推動飛航的這種郵輪來促進高雄的"},{"start":395.484,"end":422.762,"text":"邮轮的一个发展那另外也必须要串联地方的产业积极的揽客来吸引这些邮轮的旅客到各个景点商圈来旅游那另外我们要举办国际的大型的邮轮的论坛其实当初第一个举办邮轮论坛就是我争取在高雄来举办这也很多年了十多年了"},{"start":423.479,"end":444.213,"text":"那這些我們也希望能夠港澳公司出去招商或是請各郵輪公司到高雄來採線來強化我們的這樣的一個旅遊的目標另外我們對於郵輪到港的服務品質也必須要具體提升來 董事長讓你說明一下"},{"start":444.813,"end":465.03,"text":"那也跟委員報告大概委員提點這部分我們都是在整合在推但是我們希望能夠把高雄國際郵輪的品牌打出來所以我們現在在那個郵輪大樓的三樓會變成一個國際郵輪國際會議廳然後我們也會搭配我們四樓跟五樓的部分有一個探索館"},{"start":466.011,"end":486.242,"text":"那讓郵輪的這個品牌能夠像濟州郵輪論壇一樣能夠每年都會在我們的高雄這個旅運大樓來舉辦國際的郵輪然後變成一個重要的一個品牌之後那個郵輪就會慢慢的一波一波上來好 謝謝周董事長你也是從觀光署"},{"start":487.376,"end":516.132,"text":"擔任署長過其實你之前在我們高雄是我們高雄火車站的站長那也擔任觀光署的一個署長那其實對於推動郵輪觀光當然港澳公司有它具體的相關的業務但是郵輪觀光也是你一個重要的認為雖然你新到任但是我們期待你能夠在提短程就能提出具體的一個提升的目標跟政策我們希望能夠看到具體的一個成績"}]}},{"id":"166507","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166507","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd04ed94b003cefa29384d4c72640307d486ad855f0f05df91b3eccb88f554b3b0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:26:44 - 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請主席邀請觀光署的署長請陳玉秀署長"},{"start":16.758,"end":36.053,"text":"委員好 署長早安我們知道這個郵輪觀光的旅遊模式越來越熱門那我們也一直在推廣這個就是郵輪的一個旅遊那台灣的這個郵輪的觀光我們看到在疫情後也快速的一個復甦根據這個交通部的一個統計資料2025年郵輪進出港的旅客"},{"start":39.155,"end":64.588,"text":"預計是可以超過110萬人次創下這個歷史的一個新高那我們也看到就是說我們觀光署的這個郵輪來台旅客統計資料的一個顯示從疫情後到現在台中港沒有任何的郵輪停泊就是至今已經連續7年沒有郵輪靠港所以這邊先請問一下就是說在我們看到亞洲的郵輪市場這麼熱絡為什麼獨露這個台中港"},{"start":69.614,"end":72.785,"text":"這個是不是請港務公司董事長來回答好 周董事長"},{"start":75.246,"end":102.534,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為台中港是掛銬港所以他並不是母港然後我們也很努力的在疫情之後也特別去幾個航商遊輪的航遊輪公司那所以我們在明年就就這個也確定會進來我們的台中港跟委員報告一下遊輪市場他是有一個市場機制"},{"start":104.332,"end":122.394,"text":"然後這個也需要有我們很多旅行社地接社然後跟一些景點串接所以還有當然一個很重要就是優惠優惠的措施也是會吸引船公司他希望能夠落點"},{"start":123.515,"end":141.291,"text":"所以我們在疫情之後台中港也是當作一個重中之重所以我們除了這個持續尤其是今年我們好幾個團就特別去拜會我們也希望明年的部分能夠在規劃2027年的時候"},{"start":143.112,"end":168.099,"text":"我們也把台中港這樣子掛號港當作首選所以我想說這個部分我們會持續努力那另外的話就是光屬他們也有一些郵輪的團科的補助方案那現在我們想說新的一年我想這個光屬他們在在研議是不是能夠持續那我們這個部分的話優惠的措施也是持續那也特別跟委員報告一下"},{"start":168.559,"end":189.353,"text":"是 那就是明年將會有四艘的這個精品級的郵輪來停靠台中港對 那也是去年我們特別拜託航商做一些規劃所以2026年我們很確定的就是有四個航次是 那我們就是台中港這邊都準備好了"},{"start":189.773,"end":217.904,"text":"是 我們包括了當然有一些是譬如說六月的部分我們還需要跟台中市府這邊做一些洽結那尤其是這個我們講說這個半日遊一日遊的部分原則上它是半日遊但是我們希望能夠做一些更好 細緻的規劃那已經有一些採線的部分都已經確定了譬如說自然科學博物館還有我們的很有名的這個高美私地"},{"start":218.644,"end":245.193,"text":"然後一些亮點的這個串接那台中也有很多美食所以我們希望能夠從台中港這邊能夠掛靠之後能夠帶動這個這些旅遊的這個旅次就是這個郵輪的觀光當然就是我們港澳公司這邊嘛跟我們交通部的分工要一起合作那我本期也看了一下觀光署的網站有關這個郵輪觀光"},{"start":246.753,"end":260.826,"text":"的這個建議的行程就是針對台中港的這樣子一個建議行程有三個行程那我先請問一下署長你對於這樣子的建議行程你覺得有吸引力嗎你覺得這樣滿意嗎"},{"start":264.947,"end":281.941,"text":"當然還有優化的機會嘛對不對如果說未來有機會再引導到彰化因為彰化的鹿港老街還是非常有魅力的那到包含像我們講的玻璃馬祖廟這塊我覺得對於外國人而言我覺得是都極具魅力那希望未來可以把這塊再加進來"},{"start":283.462,"end":300.032,"text":"是在建議行程裡面第二個行程是有建議到鹿港老街跟玻璃媽祖廟那是事實上在鹿港這個天后宮也是一個極具代表性的一個信仰中心那也是一個很美的一個建築體因為它是一個歷史古蹟"},{"start":300.692,"end":319.841,"text":"那玻璃廟的話他應該是可以看到我們現在的一個工藝我想這個都是很不錯的一個參觀點那我看到明年的四艘郵輪的這個停靠的時間有半天也有兩天的行程所以就是說在他們靠駁的一個天數"},{"start":320.701,"end":339.422,"text":"有一天兩天或三天的話是不是可以就是說在這個旅遊規劃的行程上可以就是說在彰化可以有比較多的一個規劃的一個行程這個我們會再來協調就是找因為我們有觀光圈嘛把觀光圈的找來跟旅營社一起來再跑一下線是"},{"start":341.294,"end":369.987,"text":"跟委員報告一下有一個兩天的那個是有一定會去鹿港會去鹿港因為畢竟從台中港到彰化也要有一點一些這個車程的一個時間所以就是說在停靠的時間如果許可的話我們是希望說盡量能夠把它拉到彰化來因為其實彰化也有很多可以看的不管是就是這個古蹟的就是鹿港這邊的或者是海線的一個觀光或者是山線的觀光我想都有"},{"start":370.327,"end":386.281,"text":"不錯的一個套裝的一個行程規劃那當然這部分可能就是要請我們觀光署跟地方政府可能要做一個密切的一個討論應該也要聽取一下地方政府的意見我們再跟地方政府一起合作推出最好的行程"},{"start":386.721,"end":404.467,"text":"是因為我們知道就是說目前停靠台中港就是以中小型的郵輪為主這樣子的一個郵輪的旅客應該都是會比較屬於希望能夠深度旅遊的一個旅客為主所以我覺得說在這個部分的話針對客群的"},{"start":404.927,"end":428.01,"text":"特性我們可以做一個更細緻的一個行程一個規劃我想這樣子對我們不管是說對於國外旅客對我們台灣的一個印象可能應該會更好對未來可能回流的狀況可能也會更好有那個效益在好那接下來本席再請教一下有關這個藍色公路的這個部分"},{"start":429.656,"end":439.073,"text":"我們看到這個我們推藍色公路應該很多年了嘛那到底有沒有具體的成效我不曉得這個請葉局長"},{"start":446.657,"end":463.497,"text":"跟委員報告 那我們國內的這個目前海運的固定航線總共有25條 本島離島是12條 島基間是13條 那每年大概有服務500萬人次的這樣的服務 那委員剛剛提醒就是說我們"},{"start":464.858,"end":486.096,"text":"如何再進一步提升這個藍色公路的功能還有它觀光的效益那這邊跟委員報告我們在過去幾年有鼓勵業者來新批新的藍色公路那這邊包括澎湖的南方四島還有布呆東極台北馬祖以及成功綠島這四條是新批的航線"},{"start":487.117,"end":514.83,"text":"那另外一部分就是我們今年試辦了這個三條新的航線的叫海洋觀光嘉年華的這樣的活動那這邊包括基隆花蓮還有布袋澎湖金門那我們希望透過這樣的一個客源的培養來持續提升這個藍色公路觀光的一個效益那另外我們也正在這個呈報一個這個"},{"start":516.893,"end":525.092,"text":"比較中期的一個計畫就是要來建構一艘全國光光的備援船舶那這個部分現在已經呈報計畫當中"},{"start":526.573,"end":554.743,"text":"是因為我們看到就是如果說我們這個藍色公路是以國內旅客為主那一般我們國內的旅客應該就是搭船就是以運輸就是說交通為主要的一個目的所以要怎樣推動這個海洋的一個觀光我想這個部分就是可能要再多費一些心思是我們可能要結合岸上的遊程甚至在船上的這個搭乘的過程也要有一些有創意的做法"},{"start":555.868,"end":555.969,"text":"感謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166503","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166503","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0f8c564bb75a2ce2a212f972bfaabac2cab7014e9f0b2746256f6ed70b2e814a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:31:17 - 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首先感謝我們國防委員會剛才做的兩個決議喔那就針對現在有爭議性的那包含我們這個炸藥的相關的國防部的採購喔有兩個決議必須要符合相關的法規而且對於相關的程序跟價格也應該要做一些限制好 那我想首先請那個蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":35.389,"end":64.068,"text":"好 局長好 局長我想請教一下國安局那如果對外採購如果是屬於具有這個敏感性或者是資安國安疑慮的標案或者是涉及國家安全採購的標案請問一下 像這樣的標案你們會不會標給資本額只有10萬元的公司"},{"start":65.465,"end":79.935,"text":"假如是比較機敏的標案當然我們有我們相關的發標跟發包跟那個招標的程序跟資格對不對那像這樣的有涉及國安資安的標案"},{"start":80.995,"end":103.508,"text":"會不會給一家就是他事實上是可能有人頭他就可能是一直不停的不停的轉一個人開了好幾家公司然後這裡面他所謂的專業人員是用工讀生請問國安局會不會就是有國安這樣規格的標案會標給這樣的公司"},{"start":104.088,"end":133.108,"text":"就管局這邊當然 就像剛剛跟委員說明的啦我們一定的一個作業的程序 但國防部這邊他的程序什麼那如果有這樣子的 就資本額很低 只有10萬塊但是可以標到有關資安相關的電腦相關維護設備或者是他有曾經被告過詐欺或者是他其實主業是茶行然後他們可能只有兩個人 其中還有工讀生"},{"start":134.389,"end":142.081,"text":"像這樣子的一個涉及國安資安的標案如果是這樣的程序發包局長請問一下這樣有沒有國安疑慮"},{"start":145.698,"end":160.744,"text":"對 一般 我想我的理解我剛有跟委員說明因為我不知道國防部的法規規範是什麼那一般來講 第一個是剛才部長講好多次了第一個部分當然是法規面那第二個是在個案的標案裡面有沒有一些相關的條件像這樣子 像現在的狀況這是有一個具體的案例具體案例 它就是"},{"start":167.986,"end":195.529,"text":"標給了一家資本額10萬塊這是不真的事實然後媒體也訪問到這家公司的負責人他主要是做茶葉那他說他是資訊管理系數德科技的資訊管理系那他說有人忙不過來就是另外一位他是用公讀生的方式然後另外他講到說他人沒有去他就標到了我要確定一下"},{"start":196.75,"end":216.827,"text":"像這樣子的狀況他有沒有國安的疑慮因為我們一直都很擔心我們被滲透對不對那如果有一個有心人士或者是境外敵對勢力他看到我們的標案這麼簡單他要成立一家資本額10萬塊的公司太容易了"},{"start":217.367,"end":236.045,"text":"他要找一個這個有資管背景資管科系畢業的人他兩個都不只他20個都可以他就可以來標國防部的這樣子具有機敏性跟資安的標案有沒有國安餘力 我已經問了好多次"},{"start":236.724,"end":252.069,"text":"因為委員講的是一個非常特定的一個個案的標案那我就問這個個案會不會有國安疑慮那因為我對這個個案我比較不瞭解你就不敢講你也不敢講說他沒有國安疑慮你也不敢講他有國安疑慮好時間暫停一下我們請那個顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":259.471,"end":286.285,"text":"部長你可以看到剛才局長非常辛苦他也不能打臉你他也不敢幫你背書那我要講的就是最近我們所陸續爆發出來的國防部的採購他的漏洞非常非常多他的門檻極為寬鬆而且你們沒有經過相關的資格的要求跟徵訊一個剛才講的今天討論了很多"},{"start":287.105,"end":289.806,"text":"我剛才說這絕對是國安漏洞任何一個人他只要來標這個國防部電腦維護你們還天天密件機密件他通通可以看光光好再來一個這個是我前一陣子所提出來的這個也是一個很確定的一家風液公司"},{"start":309.356,"end":331.71,"text":"這個蜂蜜公司他事實上在中科院已經把他列入為黑名單了是中科院已經確定列入黑名單然後檢調在今年起訴他以所謂的他有息產地問題有詐欺的問題但是呢在國防部繼續的把案子標給他"},{"start":333.069,"end":351.424,"text":"所以我要講的是一個這個查行我之前提到的他已經被很多包含法務部去告包含大學去告包含他去告立法院他也敗訴那另外這個風義公司呢他是直接被中科院列黑名單他也已經被檢調起訴的案子你們繼續標給他所以部長"},{"start":357.348,"end":370.516,"text":"這些案子整個下來 我知道你是律師 你剛才回答賴思寶委員你是用律師的身份 你很會鑽這個法律漏洞但是我請問一下 我們連續這些標案的問題你認為國防部在整個的 在未來對外採購這些標案需不需要做檢討"},{"start":380.168,"end":407.547,"text":"柯文委員報告您剛講的有關那個紅樟茶葉的這個維護合約我們在這個廠商派出前我們就完成了人員的安全查核那另外在這個維護的期間都有專責人員陪同施作那我們在驗收的時候也會有採購單位依規定再次實施系統的檢核你們怎麼查核 他人都沒到耶"},{"start":408.015,"end":410.958,"text":"沒有資安餘領 您講的人沒有到那是指招標那因為這個是屬於小額的採購的服務合約所以他依照採購法的49條本來就可以用郵寄來投標那我剛剛講的是他在履約的階段他得標之後我們要做人員查核 安全的查核那你知道他有被告"},{"start":428.993,"end":450.734,"text":"我們有專責人員來陪同然後我們要檢核那你有知道我提出來的他被那個有被地檢署告有被大學告知道嗎那另外這個我想已經說明這個是軍威公司你又回避問題了軍威公司你講的是軍威公司他從來沒有參與本部跟所屬單位的標案這個負責人有被告啊"},{"start":453.94,"end":458.625,"text":"對 那這個負責人的被告的結果這個公司的停權是由軍威公司被停權那是在108年的5月24號到111年的5月23日跟我們現在講的鴻章茶行它的得標是在111年的11月沒有關聯"},{"start":475.293,"end":494.82,"text":"所以這全部都這兩個人耶他的重點就是他被告完了之後再用另外一個人頭再去成立一家公司這個負責人他也講說哇現在這麼多爭議我們再去成立一家公司就好啦對他自己都承認了好來那我剛才講的豐益公司呢豐益公司他已經被起訴你們仍然去讓他參與標案而且標給他"},{"start":499.561,"end":517.526,"text":"就這個部分我們現在已經在我們的這個相關的標案裡面說明就是說他一旦被中科院因為這個相關的國安法的一些規定比如說他去那個"},{"start":518.962,"end":535.815,"text":"大陸的地區這樣子的一個問題然後被中間列入黑名單的時候我們把它列入我們把它列入這個不能夠投沒有具有投標的一個資格我們現在已經把它列入了"},{"start":536.531,"end":554.426,"text":"現在才列入但是中科院去年就把它列入了我們原來是在這個履約的階段來那個那現在進一步把它列入這一個不能夠來進行投票你們這些標案你承不承認裡面有漏洞甚至可能會有國安疑慮呢"},{"start":555.684,"end":564.091,"text":"我想每一個個案的狀況不同我們每一個個案都會來不斷的檢討那關於火藥原物料的部分我已經說明的相當清楚我們用合約來進行控管所以我第一時間在這個您剛講的資訊的服務的部分我們也有相關的規範那風力公司的這個部分呢我們原來是在履約的階段來加以控管那現在進一步從招標的資格也加以控管"},{"start":581.866,"end":610.385,"text":"你覺得你們是不是應該依照工程會的相關的採購的這個辦法去執行呢這個在我前兩天的諮詢我也特別提出來剛才那個賴思寶委員也提出來投標廠商資格跟特殊及巨額採購認定標準要求具有時機具有一定的人力具有一定的財力這些至少要有這些相關的資格標準你們國防部應不應該"},{"start":612.267,"end":627.589,"text":"來比較辦理不然的話你們的門檻是太寬鬆嗎我們都會根據合約的一個性質本身來律定這個投票商的資格那至於你講的高額的部分這個是不是請裁割室來沒關係 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想請教目前的梅山纜車的進度跟評估的結果現在是怎麼樣 有沒有更新的進度"},{"start":335.723,"end":341.413,"text":"我知道說阿管處有啟動這個太平華所的設計工作那目前各自的進度你們有聽到最新的進展嗎這個是不是請我們警局組的組長來 謝謝"},{"start":349.887,"end":376.117,"text":"跟委員報告有關於梅山纜車跟那個太平雲梯滑索的部分我們的阿管處現在目前還是在委託顧問公司我們在積極對於環境地質敏感的部分還有一些環境影響的衝擊的部分我們還在做積極的評估在需要最新進度的一定有沒有時程可不可以給我們一個就是一個時間表就你們自己內部設置一個時間表好不好就是我們才可以知道推進的進度"},{"start":378.158,"end":399.674,"text":"進訴評估後之後我們請管理處跟委員報告我的意思是說評估的時間表你們可以進訴或者是怎麼樣都可以但是要有時間表我才知道你們有沒有進訴我們跟您報告就給您一個我們辦理的時程目前我們還沒有辦法現場來做一個明確的訂定因為第一線執行的管理處今天不在"},{"start":400.535,"end":414.826,"text":"好謝謝謝謝最後署長的話我們嘉義縣大埔鄉也有藍色公路那我們希望說這個觀光署可以全力協助他其實附近還有退府會的嘉義農場也在對外招商所以兩個把整合在一起好不好跟他們討論一下謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"166500","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166500","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0cc3ed637e28c230084d4c72640307d48ab7014e9f0b2746210110eaefe7530705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:13:46 - 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有請交通部次長"},{"start":16.671,"end":41.841,"text":"市長好 在交通部有一個就是針對這些離島地區居民的一個票價補貼那在離島建設條例裡面第15-1條有提到就是這個金額不得低於其票價30%也就是說它是一個法定的一個下限"},{"start":42.961,"end":70.675,"text":"那我在這邊就是要替族人請命因為看起來這十年來其實一直沒有做調整那最主要特別是蘭嶼的這些居民他一趟來回到台東其實他大概也要自行負擔大概一千六百多那對於很多老人家來講他們其實往往都是需要到台東市區去看病"},{"start":71.675,"end":100.073,"text":"因為可能蘭嶼的醫療資源有一些設備的問題他們要常常希望出去可是這樣的一個交通成本甚至他們到了市區都一定還要坐計程車所以對他們來講要去看病他們就不敢看那我們也是覺得很心疼很不捨所以想要請教一下市長當然這是我們航港局的業務不曉得這個部分有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":101.812,"end":119.947,"text":"我先請局長跟您做個說明是跟委員報告為了提供我們離島居民基本民行我們在居民票價補貼有依照依法發展大陸運輸條例的規定這個是下限我們補助"},{"start":124.351,"end":141.4,"text":"這個地方政府補助給這個補貼給居民的這個比例是高於這個下限那蘭嶼的部分是38%綠島的部分是32%那每年的預算額度總數是大概800萬那我們是透過這個行政院核定的六重建設計畫來協助地方政府來進行補貼"},{"start":144.522,"end":165.965,"text":"我知道但是我現在要談的就是說對於很多的老人家來講他非常需要往返台東可是這樣的一個交通成本對他們來講他們根本不敢出去我要講的是說我們應該必須要去正視這個問題我們怎麼幫助當地人有這樣的一個特殊需求"},{"start":169.975,"end":183.651,"text":"另外就是屬於敬老票的部分那個有另外的優惠的規定那我們會再跟地方政府再進一步了解這個民眾的需求我是希望說要有改善的一個作為啦可以啦"},{"start":185.553,"end":205.438,"text":"好 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謝謝那再請教一下因為我們在7月份的時候有看到新聞就是交通部有特別提到有5條藍色公路要啟航會補助營運費用跟觀光行銷那特別是像有一些基隆到花蓮那我就不太曉得說有沒有跟園民會或當地的旅遊公會去研商有沒有結合部落的旅遊線"},{"start":300.733,"end":323.37,"text":"包委員這個部分我們花蓮部分的航線我們一直都有跟先生母這邊做密切的這個聯繫那台東部分我想我們在115年度的規劃也會把它跟他們一起來做那我希望那這個部分兩週內可以給我一個書面報告好不好那最後請教一下次長就是在幾個月前"},{"start":325.849,"end":341.856,"text":"蘭嶼跟巴丹島他們其實有做一個世紀首航也就是他們要在明年的6月會乘這個20人最大的拼板舟要滑向巴丹島那這件事情也籌備了好幾年"},{"start":343.217,"end":357.062,"text":"也謝謝交通部這邊我們在開協調會的時候也提供很多的協助但是我就是想要請教一下因為我看到我們的這個藍色公路像基隆到日本的石垣島那其實"},{"start":359.443,"end":382.096,"text":"在他們來訪的過程中因為他們巴丹省的省長 副省長還有伊特爾巴雅市的市長他們都有過來有來國會做拜訪也有去高雄市市長也有來去親自的接待也有到蘭嶼那他們就是很希望說明年的這個活動就是有沒有可能搭配這個旅行團"},{"start":382.856,"end":405.324,"text":"有沒有搭配專機這樣的一個規劃那未來呢這條航線其實很不錯因為我看這個基隆到日本石垣島大概270公里但是從蘭嶼從高雄到這個伊特巴亞市大概只有100公里左右其實是非常近的那不曉得次長你有什麼樣的想法跟規劃"},{"start":406.909,"end":422.946,"text":"包委員 這個構想確實蠻特別我想就麻煩航港局先跟業者討論一下然後也跟您請教在這個活動中怎麼來跟縣府這邊搭配 好不好那就再找時間到辦公室我們來討論謝謝市長 謝謝局長 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請周董事長"},{"start":13.444,"end":33.382,"text":"委員好董事長好同樣的和董事長討論計畫那今天委員會安排這個專題郵輪觀光還有遊艇觀光還有寄來社公路的辦理情形還有未來的規劃那本期也特別看了貴單位過去五年的合訂的幾份報告包括香港的整體發展規劃然後還有海洋觀光計畫"},{"start":34.423,"end":52.144,"text":"那現在是114年底這兩份計劃一個即將在明年結案然後另外一個的執行的期程剛好過半那當初林佳龍部長他在109年業務報告中陳豪宇說要投入500億的500億元來打造藍色公屋"},{"start":52.865,"end":74.115,"text":"藍色公路那本席對照計畫書的細項發現預算總數跟承諾有巨大的落差所以要就叫我們董事長根據港務公司所提出的商港整體發展規劃那這份計畫明年就要結案了吧那在報告中有提到客運發展的課題裡面有明確指出我們所面臨到港口與在地觀光"},{"start":75.035,"end":101.727,"text":"資源連結不足的問題那旅客下船後往往都會缺乏深度的消費誘因那另外還有我們原本希望外籍的船舶它能夠帶來補給供應甚至未來可以甚至未來我們可以就是有維修的商機可是五年過去的現在依然是傳出我們只賺到微薄的碼頭費也就是停泊費那也沒有賺到相對比較高單價的在地補給然後還有產業的"},{"start":104.049,"end":116.746,"text":"產業鏈的加值也就是說產業沒有跟上那董事長我直接問喔那這個商港整體發展規劃執行四年的現在基隆港還有高雄港的郵輪雙目港定位現在是合作大於競爭還是惡性搶客"},{"start":119.509,"end":132.321,"text":"跟委員報告您垂行的部分大概分兩個部分第一個部分就在整體的那個五百億計畫的藍色公路部分這是航港局在主政的所以等一下葉局長會跟您報告"},{"start":133.442,"end":151.974,"text":"那麼我們搭配的整個商港計劃我們是五年計劃所以確實五年計劃的新五年計劃我們已經在研擬了那原來現在執行最後一年的五年計劃我們也按照進度在執行所以這個部分也沒問題雙母港那有沒有具體的分工的機制"},{"start":153.255,"end":170.696,"text":"然後委員關心的就是包括有幾個層次就是希望能夠在地的這個在地的補給的部分能夠帶動當地的產業結構的我們也算了一下大概以這個麗金郵輪的統計大概三個月的在台灣的"},{"start":171.617,"end":188.663,"text":"母港 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Cruise就是一趟飛機一趟輪船這個部分是尤其是歐洲的趨勢然後這個亞洲目前也開始這樣興盛但是我跟委員報告一下郵輪整個產業的部分它有四個部分"},{"start":268.849,"end":296.23,"text":"一個是船舶一個是航運航線一個是港口那一個是郵程就是觀光署他們在負責那我們這個部分是負責港口所以這個港口的部分我們會幾個旅客我們叫旅運中心都已經慢慢建置完成了所以這個包括的蘇澳港也都是建置完成那後續就是一些招商的部分我們會加強"},{"start":296.71,"end":315.856,"text":"OK好謝謝董事長另外請葉局長是跟委員報告有剛剛委員垂詢的這個藍色公路十年計畫的這個經費差異的部分那這邊跟特別跟委員報告藍色公路十年發展計畫是109年當時提出那期程是到110到119年那當時預估的總經費是521"},{"start":321.338,"end":340.828,"text":"那520億元有幾個主要的組成很快跟我們報告其中民間投資在香港部分是307億特別預算22億 航港基金43億跟公務預算148億那其中民間投資307億裡面港澳公司這邊已經招商完成285億所以達成率已經達93%"},{"start":342.449,"end":355.529,"text":"特別預算我們是透過海洋觀光這個潛在特別預算來執行那現在也接近這個計畫完成的這個階段那基金預算43億的部分是透過布袋跟澎湖國內計畫來推動"},{"start":357.572,"end":383.235,"text":"本席另外請就是請教請教局長那111年度我們核定了這個海洋觀光計畫那其中就建議航港局的遊艇通平台應該跟海委會的海域休息暫時的平台整合那避免資源重複的投入那現在過去四年那民眾也有申請也有反應說這個申請的流程相當的繁瑣必須要在兩個部會之間做切換你們有進行改善了嗎"},{"start":384.209,"end":412.532,"text":"是各位報告這個部分剛才專案報告有提到那我們在112年的12月已經跟海委會的這個海域遊器進出港的線上申請系統來做整合那現在已經完成單一的入口網叫台灣遊艇入口網那我們有四大的這個功能這包括遊艇的入出境 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我們麻煩部長請顧部長"},{"start":10.345,"end":38.304,"text":"部長早安我想我們還是延續星期一的問題把幾個我還是不太理解的問題再就交於部長部長我們看了一下就是您交的那一份台海情勢跟國軍戰備報告第三頁還有第五頁其實有反覆強調一件事就是共軍的威脅嚴峻國軍必須隨時備戰所以我想這代表了就是我們國家目前處境是危險"},{"start":39.865,"end":58.696,"text":"這一秒鐘的戰備空窗都不應該有因為我們目前是一個危險的狀況那一樣我還是回到那個問題既然這麼危急那像這種RDX這種關鍵的炸藥那全台灣只有一家裝修公司得標而且它財力又遠遠不及我們的那個巨額採購標準"},{"start":60.197,"end":86.241,"text":"法規裡面他在第五條第一項其實有提到一些建議的條件嘛那這樣感覺就很像獨門生意啊那可以麻煩部長再說明一下謝謝部長相反的我們不是獨門生意我們是公開採購那麼任何符合這個都來投標這個就是比較廣增商源好謝謝部長那我想喔因為我自己看啦就是我自己看了這個案子"},{"start":87.765,"end":103.737,"text":"8.24億然後得標廠商是用5.93億強下所以這個看起來好像其實他這個案子是一個在投標當時會讓廠商覺得是一個有利有利潤的案子我過往遇過的一些標案是"},{"start":104.457,"end":125.417,"text":"根本沒有利潤所以沒有廠商要來標或是一兩家覺得他可以節約成本的來標那像這個8.2C但是5.93億就可以搶下看起來好像是一個有利潤的案子但是卻只有一家來標那我先跟部長報告一下我過往在懲辦這種標案的犯罪的時候"},{"start":126.218,"end":142.095,"text":"我看到這樣的案例我第一個會想到這個會不會有可能是外部自己微標好了第二個有沒有可能是資格上面去綁標我是說以前我過往處理案件我第一個就會想到所以我們沒有綁標沒有沒有我不是說本案"},{"start":142.715,"end":163.833,"text":"我是說跟部長報告過往我看到一個有利潤出來的案子卻只有一家廠商來標的時候我第一個在辦案的時候我會去思考第一個是不是外部就為標為好了第二個有沒有可能資格上面特定綁某些特殊規格這是我過往的工作經驗我不是說本案所以"},{"start":165.307,"end":183.68,"text":"我就覺得一個很奇怪目前我國有實質營運國際貿易許可進出口的廠商我查了一下有35萬家但是這次有利潤卻只有一家來所以我才會一直跟部長就教這件事情"},{"start":184.52,"end":200.818,"text":"那因為你有提到說火藥的原料其實是管制的門檻很高那國內其他有很多一些大廠 軍火大廠或有一些曾經有這種實際經歷經驗實機的貿易商卻做不到那一家日本就1900萬去年才臨時變更登記"},{"start":204.062,"end":224.07,"text":"的這種菜鳥公司可以拿到所以我當時才會一直覺得說只有兩種可能一個就是這個廠商真的很厲害天才打敗所有軍火大廠第二個貨源是不是有問題會不會是來洗產地那這個是我當時覺得最奇怪的地方我想請教一下部長您的想法就只有一家來而且這家的資本額又不高"},{"start":225.493,"end":239.743,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們因為有一個合約的一個控制的作為也就是說他要先繳押標金然後還要繳旅業保證金那麼如果他不能夠旅業旅業保證金會被沒收然後停權嗎"},{"start":240.703,"end":269.832,"text":"所以他一般在這種所謂的火藥原物料我們看過去20年來都有一個特色就是說他要有把握那有把握他就要取得那個當地政府的輸出許可以及原廠的證明如果他沒有把握他就會面臨違約的後果謝謝部長 部長講得很清楚就是我們國防部的武器還是在違約的時候可以沒收他的履約保證金等等但是我還是擔心一件事情"},{"start":270.953,"end":285.802,"text":"他的資本額就1900萬光押標金1770萬就等於是掏空他的身家當然他還要得標之後他還要去繳3000萬的旅業保證金當然他是拿著國防部的契約去銀行搬錢"},{"start":286.903,"end":303.294,"text":"那這個在商界其實叫空手套白狼因為他這個三千萬不是他的錢而是他拿您的合約去跟銀行借來的錢我想委員講說不是他的錢是不是他的錢您這個我想這個沒有部長您先聽我說明一下"},{"start":303.954,"end":321.375,"text":"因為他的資本額只有1900萬光押標金就1770萬那履約保證金3000萬呢這個部分其實只能證明說他有辦法拿著合約到銀行去借錢出來我想委員應該也清楚我們的資本額登記跟他實際的財力我想"},{"start":321.815,"end":340.471,"text":"沒有什麼直接必然的管理嗎委員也是講一段出身應該很清楚那個部長我再提一個部分我講一個很簡單的其實我們在買東西的時候像譬如說您的事務所如果要買個5.9億的電腦設備你會找一家完全沒有賣過電腦的公司而且他的資本額遠低於"},{"start":341.392,"end":367.269,"text":"只有1900萬 這樣這麼小的公司如果要包您事務所的電腦設備您會敢找這樣的事務所 敢找這樣的店家他完全沒有經驗我還是跟委員報告 我們就清查94年來迄今採購火藥原物料的38個案子都是採購它招標 廠商的資格都一樣就是我禮拜一所講的最重要就是有公司設立證明 納稅證明跟國際保險那我要 接下來要講一下我們查了一下他們的資本額"},{"start":370.792,"end":373.275,"text":"這個資本額分別有從新台幣100萬元到1億2000萬元不等這些38個案子每一個的資本額"},{"start":383.395,"end":405.771,"text":"從最低有到達只有一百萬那也都 重點就在於他有沒有能夠履約嘛為什麼巨額採購的標準他有這些設計就必須他要有十分之一的相當標案十分之一的財力證明第五條第一項而且要有相當的實際的經驗過往交易的經驗要達到五分之二"},{"start":406.471,"end":421.549,"text":"為什麼有這些規定就是他希望把風險降到最低您在外面講的沒錯啊您講了一句話說我們要求他要有一定的資本額他就一定能履約嗎當然不可能但是我們是在降低不履約的風險我想今天"},{"start":422.53,"end":449.029,"text":"採購法或任何一個標準在那裡要求這些人要有相當的財力相當的過往經驗他不是說百分之百保證一定履約這世界上沒有這種事但是我們是降低不履約的風險嘛所以我們今天的意思一直是這樣我不是說國防部沒有辦法去沒收他的履約保證金我從來沒有這樣講而是在國防國家安全的重要性上面來說"},{"start":450.09,"end":478.57,"text":"幾千萬是小事情我一直在意的是我們能不能夠有一個很好的標準去嚴格了解幫我們做這些採購的這些公司他是一個很穩定然後有經驗有財力的公司能夠讓這個標案能夠順利的履約完成不讓我們國防產生空窗其實我的重點在這而不是在於說反正他交不出來我可以沒收他的保證金啦我跟布朗先說明這個點因為我一直"},{"start":479.45,"end":497.887,"text":"慶富案當時我有去研究那個案子其實它也是一個財力不好的公司去標下那個352億的案子然後後面又發生詐貿代案跟九家公司代了205億你要想這個案子就像我們拿來看我們今天這個案子"},{"start":498.827,"end":525.101,"text":"對他跟銀行拿著國防部的企業跟銀行借了錢出來給你當那個履約保證金他後來沒有辦法履約了國防部確實可以沒收這筆錢沒有錯但是我們國防部不是盈利失業這個錢對國防部沒有意義國防部需要的是我們炸藥能夠拿到再來他今天國防部把我錢沒收了我公司倒閉就好倒楣的是誰就是那家貸款的銀行嘛那貸款銀行"},{"start":526.321,"end":551.576,"text":"這個呆帳出來到最後倒楣就是帶銀行的股東啊或者是國內的存保嘛那其實到最後受害的還是國人啦所以這就是我覺得說我不會說認為國防部可以沒收履約保證金這一件事情就覺得啊我沒有責任啊我這樣做都是對的是這樣因為我還是很希望國防的每一筆採購都能夠如實交貨因為國防不能有真空嘛"},{"start":552.376,"end":578.429,"text":"所以我才跟那天跟部長說我們兩個對國家都有忠誠義務我們都非常的愛護這個國家我希望說都能夠順順利利的採購到該採購的東西我們也都希望順順利利跟委員報告我們清查了過去這38個案子32個案子已經驗收合格都結案付款其中有5萬里約中其中有一個案子就是因為沒有辦法拿出輸出許可證明"},{"start":580.023,"end":588.941,"text":"所以他的關鍵就是他沒有辦法攔住輸出許可證明所以他沒辦法離約這就是關鍵啊您之前有待過金管會我們都知道"},{"start":590.31,"end":610.805,"text":"商場上KYC是一件很重要的事情銀行要貸款給你他絕對不是說你來跟我說你要借錢你還得起錢講這兩句話我就認同銀行會KYC的去對備放款者來貸款者我會去了解你的工作狀況你過往的那個信用狀況以及你的財力你有什麼不動產我都會去了解這些"},{"start":611.425,"end":640.368,"text":"所以我才敢再貸款給你那一樣我只是拜託國防部在我們在找人家來投來投標的時候我們對這些人我們要設足夠的門檻我們要排除掉一些有風險的公司否則會有一個狀況就有人跟我講他說哇那今天你的敵國都不用射飛彈來對你了他就在我們國內成立個100家小額的小10萬20萬的公司然後去申請國際貿易我就來狂標那個"},{"start":641.109,"end":661.968,"text":"那個國防部的採購案然後再去跟銀行借錢貸款來繳保證金反正呢到最後要交貨的時候我說不好意思我交不了我公司倒閉就好然後國防部拿不到拿不到這些武器那所以你的敵人根本不需要射一顆飛彈他就用這些就可以搞倒你的軍事採購所以這件事情是讓我們看到一個"},{"start":663.457,"end":679.276,"text":"東西就是國會的質詢不是找國防部麻煩而是協助國防部一起把漏洞補起來我的利益點只是這樣所以我一直不是在談押標金沒不沒收或餘額保證金沒不沒收因為你要KYC之後這個人如果有風險"},{"start":680.894,"end":699.573,"text":"小事情只是火藥沒有辦法交付萬一他拿了以後去交付給恐怖組織怎麼辦他如果拿到了拿到我們國防部的不是我是說萬一啦萬一他拿了我們國防部的合約去取得一些授權然後東西拿到之後他做了什麼事我們不知道我是說萬一啦"},{"start":699.993,"end":722.318,"text":"我們國防部沒有授權他沒有啦 我是說是他要取得當地政府的授權他拿到你的合約 對不對然後他去取得當地政府的授權之後他拿到了這批貨但是他最後他沒有交給國防部而是交給恐怖組織這個都是風險會不會發生我不知道但是希望是從來都不可能有這個機會所以我還是講的那個重點啦"},{"start":724.236,"end":729.986,"text":"這些來投標的公司是不是我們還是要特別了解他的狀況是怎麼樣我想"},{"start":731.348,"end":758.377,"text":"真正會侵害國家安全的絕對不是立法院的質詢而是我們貿然的讓這些菜鳥公司加入這種軍火的國家隊然後而且部長您也真的不宜說不用管資本額不用管背景不用管什麼然後只要拿到原廠輸出許可就好我覺得這句話也不負責任因為你永遠不知道公司他會玩哪一招然後再來"},{"start":759.477,"end":782.846,"text":"真正會傷害國家安全的是因為部長我們的採購如果讓敵人知道這麼的鬆散那這個會不會有什麼問題這個會不會讓你的敵人找到破洞然後來像我剛剛講的我就叫一些公司來標你國防部的案子反正到時候每一個都讓你沒有辦法履約我只是讓你扣走我的錢而已嘛但是你的國防就產生真空"},{"start":784.054,"end":805.517,"text":"孫子兵法第一句兵者詭盜也所以你在面對敵人他就是兵不厭詐他會跟你玩任何一招這就是我們希望要把這個洞補起來的原因所以部長跟我也報告 因秘密的就是他的一個商源的取得不易所以因秘密的其實是在於他取得商源是 我可以理解 我也認同國安採購"},{"start":806.398,"end":826.841,"text":"因秘密而且很多東西是不得已也辛苦這我都能理解但是我還是拜託國防部你最近爆發出來的那個什麼一個賣茶葉的十萬塊的那個公司去標到一千多萬的案子然後他說他連投標都沒有去然後就說得標了像這種東西不管背後他最後做的有沒有成國人會害怕"},{"start":827.822,"end":842.122,"text":"國人真的會擔心啦你們是廣徵裁員還是變成會廣深漏洞因為剛剛委員提到這應該沒有超過150萬的小額採購他是依照採購法49條用這個郵寄投標的方式這是依照採購法的相關規定"},{"start":843.323,"end":866.198,"text":"我跟部長再報告一次事情依照採購法這個絕對沒有問題但是國防的採購絕對不是說我合法就好國防採購應該是一個跟商務採購是完全不一樣的因為部長您一直把重心放在這兩天你一直把重心放在我可以沒收他的禮約保證金但是這個是民事訴訟的律師在做的因為你無法禮約產生問題公司有損害"},{"start":868.819,"end":888.345,"text":"補錢就好了嘛但是國家安全有漏洞我們補的是人命所以我才會這麼在乎這件事情我們希望說來投標的公司國防部能不能夠更嚴謹的去面對而不是說他只要符合採購法的相關規定那其他我就都不管了那小額採購他甚至是一些資訊設備那這些資訊設備有沒有問題"},{"start":891.326,"end":912.406,"text":"所以那個老闆直接說啊他說這個就是好勵志啊這是一個好勵志的故事我一個十萬塊的賣茶的然後我飆到這樣的案子齁那其實這個都會讓國人會擔心那您一直跟我講對他都完全符合採購法但是我相信國防採購我們不能等閒視之啦因為採購法有問題我們可以用錢補"},{"start":915.248,"end":938.64,"text":"資訊服務重要的當然是因為他在這個旅約的階段我們會經營區 會做人員查核然後他在施作的時候我們都會在場然後驗收我們也會查核他的資安嘛這個又是另外一個我們會有一個嚴謹的一個過程這樣最後幾句話 部長你一直說國防金的期考驗是不是國防部可以立刻針對這期採購案"},{"start":941.542,"end":954.223,"text":"的資格審查標準廠商誠信還有資金來源我們能夠請政風還有工程會跟審計單位下去下去來查這件事好不好給國人讓國人安心可以嗎"},{"start":955.246,"end":980.038,"text":"我想委員如果有任何的爭議都歡迎提出給任何的第三工程單位來進行調查我的意思是說可不可以麻煩你們就我剛講那三個點然後你們國防部裡面只有政風嘛那有工程會我們可以找工程會還有審計單位我們先把這個事情先理清楚啦我還是這樣國防非常非常重要我百分之百支持國防我也痛恨傷害我們國家安全的人但是齁這個採購不能夠讓"},{"start":983.481,"end":987.37,"text":"軍備有真空啦 我的想法只是這樣好不好 再麻煩部長好 謝謝委員指教"}]}},{"id":"166488","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166488","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0b264e4998a54b0c7a3419a5287f8f915486d4848cd7fb6f30c9ded73aea8ac595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:51:07 - 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請莊部長委員好部長好我從來沒有想過台灣走入了民主憲政的災難竟然是因為財政收支劃分法沒有一個"},{"start":27.796,"end":55.166,"text":"民主憲政國家的行政首長可以恣意的說他不執行國會三讀通過的法律這是帝制不是民主但是您是財政部部長我今天沒有要跟你討論憲法學的問題我們好好來看一看今天問題的焦點也就是財政收支劃分法"},{"start":57.213,"end":81.519,"text":"民進黨在野的時候2012年黨主席蘇貞昌率領了所有的縣市首長要求修財政收支劃分法他說啊看到小孩挨敖待哺米缸卻空空如也的感受他非常的深刻這是當初2012年民進黨黨主席蘇貞昌說的"},{"start":84.039,"end":111.838,"text":"2015年蔡英文準備競選總統的時候說要修財政收支化分法結果等到了當選整整花了8年完全執政財政收支化分法怎麼樣也不肯修去年立法院三讀通過了財政收支化分法之前"},{"start":112.952,"end":141,"text":"我們在幾個月的時間請行政院趕快提出版本財政部也好行政院也好甚至包括總統不斷的跟社會宣稱舊的財政收支劃分法就是最好的版本我來講一次去年你們說舊的財政收支劃分法就是最好的版本"},{"start":143.359,"end":172.13,"text":"等不到你們的版本立法院在12月20號三讀通過了新版的財政收支劃分法這個是去年立法院三讀通過的立法院三讀通過新版的財政收支劃分法以後行政院提出附議被立法院否決了否決完了以後成為正式生效的法律第一個問題"},{"start":175.882,"end":189.088,"text":"請問針對明年中央政府總預算給地方政府的是不是依照新版財化法的規定撥補給地方政府包括統籌分配款包括補助款"},{"start":190.486,"end":201.356,"text":"跟委員報告 第一個我向來的說法是財化法涉及各級政府財源的重分配要審慎的規劃 要取得共識所以我從來沒有說但是對於剛剛我必須要做說明那第二個部分 明年的預算"},{"start":209.483,"end":229.348,"text":"是按照新版財化法編的是嗎明年的115年的總預算裡面我們是按照去年12月20號是按照去年12月20號通過的3月總統公布的 我們編列的好 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蔡局長兩位長官好今天我想很多人注意到我們的國安部也提出來了說去中心化"},{"start":25.131,"end":43.802,"text":"到底是什麼意思你說過去一個演習也用過過去來講我們看到是總部軍團部隊那現在怎麼樣是任何一個部隊都可以實施第一級是不是我們沒有這麼說我們是防衛作戰"},{"start":45.51,"end":68.866,"text":"防衛作戰隊啊 這個過去來講從你上年的國防部長就講過啊第一級只要進入我們的領空進入領海就第一級啊我們會有對應變的一些各項的狀況我們做應變的處置的一些相關的規定沒有沒有 我想問你第一級可以不可以由你的區域中心化來執行 可不可以我想我們都是在進行自衛"},{"start":69.892,"end":87.758,"text":"我知道 自衛的第一級嘛自衛的第一級所以我們對於相關的狀況會有一些律定如何在合乎交戰規則的情況下進行合法的自衛因為你現在講這個去中心化外面的人一般的了解大家的了解就是去中心化就是沒有最高指揮了這個也不是統帥下令了也不是國防部長下令了一個部隊就可以開槍了是這個意思嗎"},{"start":99.875,"end":116.584,"text":"跟委員報告齁 在這個報告裡面已經有說明了是落敵 突然發起攻擊對啊 突然發起啊大陸突然發起我們的 就我們的什麼單位你說一個連長可以嗎 還是一個一個兵就可以了 還是總算有個層級吧"},{"start":117.914,"end":122.878,"text":"對 所以他亂發起這樣的一個軍事攻擊我們當然就可以合法行使自衛權那他是誰 他是誰任何一個層級碰到軍事的攻擊任何一個層級就是不管他的位階多高乃至於這個就到基層的一個兵也可以 是不是這個意思但是跟委員強調這一段主要是在說明"},{"start":140.211,"end":155.212,"text":"剛剛我已經有回覆馬委員的問題了就是說這一段主要在強調我們承受了這一個中國的第一級之後我們如果發生最壞的這樣子的一個情況之下我們必須要根據"},{"start":156.474,"end":171.168,"text":"每一個部隊所授予的這個任務在合乎交戰規則的情況之下來遂行他的任務那他這個在這種我這樣問你啦 比較因為我時間有限這個沒辦法聽你講得唱片大論我不要聽得很清楚這樣講好了 過去已經發生過了他的無人機上到我們的金馬的上空要不要打下來"},{"start":181.145,"end":205.395,"text":"我們律定就是說就這種無人機如果它進入我們的領空範圍之內我們是可以合法的把它進行對 不要你下令 就是那個部隊這個是因為就面對這樣的出難的一個狀況它要實施應對嘛就它就可以了 對不對你不怕擦槍著火它是無人機啊它是無人機 那其他的飛機呢"},{"start":206.719,"end":225.599,"text":"其他有人危機那就要看他有沒有對我們實施一個攻擊的好 我請教那個蔡局長啊其他國家有沒有這樣子部隊指揮變成區中心化有沒有這次的俄烏戰場確實這是一個新的議題那歐洲國家有不少的討論"},{"start":226.801,"end":246.974,"text":"是不是都這樣做其他國家都這樣做美國這樣做嗎沒有 討論的場景大概是在於說假如你的中央化的中心化的一個指揮管制體系出現問題的話怎麼樣有一個比較非中央化的運作機制我就請問你美方對於這樣子區域中心化的做法是什麼有 有在討論 有這樣的討論有沒有實施啦 討論討論因為這是一個在歐戰場上發現的一個新的好那第二個問題我請教部長"},{"start":256.793,"end":280.589,"text":"這個看到中國大陸跟日本因為這個高市長苗的言論啦他的敵意一直升高在這個看到發生過J15火控雷達照射日本的F15日本當然說這是他的偵察任務中共是說這個我在訓練的時候你來指導啦"},{"start":283.336,"end":306.921,"text":"來來來先請教局長你們得到的資訊是哪一個比較對啊日本講的對還是老共講的對啊就那個現場的狀況來講我們的理解是共機因為已經在日本周邊的空域活動所以日本他當然有派出他的戰鬥機上去所以日本已經在活動了老共已經在活動了"},{"start":307.501,"end":325.742,"text":"日本闖進去的是這個意思不是 因為他已經活動範圍已經有點靠近到日本周邊的空域所以日本有戰鬥機起來但是老共的那個相關的雷達的搜索去鎖定到日本的戰機那日方覺得那是我就問你嘛是誰先啟動的嘛是他在那裡"},{"start":327.504,"end":341.622,"text":"訓練在前還是日本的飛機先飛當然是中共的先嘛所以你這兩個講起來的話就變成老共講的比較準嘛也沒有啦是不是這個意思 你剛剛就這個意思啊沒有沒有 我也要看一下日方的一些說明"},{"start":342.683,"end":365.058,"text":"怎麼美國對這個態度都點點沒有沒有我剛也跟那個陳俊宇委員在做說明的是12月的6號發生了這個事件之後美國在12月8號兩天之後馬上跟日本啟動了美國航母編隊的軍事演訓來 那個請教顧部長啊今天如果老共的飛機來了我們F什麼上來了然後他也這樣子火控雷達照我們"},{"start":372.679,"end":393.739,"text":"我們可不可以視為他突然要我們就是這個去中心化直接反擊可不可以我想如果他有對我們進行鎖定的話我們就要判斷他的一個意圖要不要直接開火如果他鎖定我們而且有一個攻擊的一個傾向我們當然可以合法的行使自衛權"},{"start":395.38,"end":412.091,"text":"這個要 他講得很清楚因為委員講的是鎖定對啊 鎖定他這個火控雷達照射就鎖定我們已經這個整個飛機上的警報器都已經響了已經是被他鎖定了他要進行意圖要進行攻擊日本為什麼被鎖定日本都沒有去打他"},{"start":413.959,"end":425.384,"text":"這個我想對於這樣子的一個判斷那就是日本要在當下要去判斷他到底對於他的雷達的這樣的一個造色是不是已經造成一種鎖定要進行攻擊"},{"start":427.906,"end":445.204,"text":"那我再請教國安局長這個高市長苗現在他的輿論當然沒有說回去台灣有事的事情但是他特別又澄清說日本要採取集體自衛權對象相當優先他就提到美國"},{"start":446.445,"end":474.148,"text":"有沒有報告台灣我想那個高市首相他在強調的是集體自衛權的行使必須要同盟國家之間才能啟動集體自衛權所以台灣沒有啊現在跟日本簽訂同盟條約的確實是美國但是在美日同盟的架構之下他們可能共同應處各種不同的事態那這個部分高市首相在前面的說明有提到台灣要是有事的話是涉及到危及存亡事態"},{"start":474.608,"end":488.572,"text":"那這個高市的講法是不是間接的就要把他的話收回去一半沒有沒有日本後來內閣有對這方面做說明好那個 蔡局長請回最後一個問題我請教那個顧部長這個剛才你又回答幾個委員的題目你在禮拜一的時候我有諮詢過相當的題目你就是 你一直強調只要他能夠交貨"},{"start":502.659,"end":510.988,"text":"就可以了 管他背景是什麼 公司名稱什麼都不要管其實那一句話 你那一句話 黎巴宜那一句話對你是很傷的"},{"start":512.339,"end":534.238,"text":"對你是很傷的因為我們都知道這不是軍事採購特別軍事採購政府採購法就明明規定有積極的資格有財務能力啊資本額下限最近一年的財報都要看著啊還有他過去要有一年內限"},{"start":535.539,"end":554.253,"text":"新年一定年限內完成類似的採購法要承認一定的金額以上這都是政府採購法以及實績者明明白白講的不是只有你講說他只要能交貨只要能交貨 不是這樣喔我們的政府採購法訂得這麼清楚而且你這個錢這個這個服賣這個錢是5.9億 將近6億這麼大的一筆金額"},{"start":563.84,"end":578.626,"text":"清清楚楚有積極資格還有消極資格那個消極資格某種程度就對於你那個那個大使就是一個要排除掉了他不能夠有判刑的紀錄都裡面寫得很清楚啊政府採購法規政府採購時事細則訂了這麼清楚積極資格跟消極資格部長啊你前天講那個話老實講你是賭字喔"},{"start":588.67,"end":593.996,"text":"你是賭池喔 這個你怎麼可以把這個ignore呢怎麼把他就視而不見 只要他交貨 那就好了你沒想過說那180天以後他如果沒有辦法交怎麼辦 我們就再也不要了這個且不要講 你是律師出身的 你都不守法"},{"start":609.813,"end":619.229,"text":"你們要看這個 積極資格 要看財務啊而且要看過他以前做過的一些案件都要看啊 怎麼可以不看呢"},{"start":621.278,"end":648.3,"text":"跟委員報告我想我已經說明得很清楚了我們過去20年來都是採同樣的一個資格這是先說明我們都一律公開招標也合乎相關政府採購好的相關的規定那至於您講的這些有關巨額的這個部分呢它本來就是得並不是因那對於我們相關的這些資格的一個認定我們過去以來都因為就火藥原物料的這個取得"},{"start":648.7,"end":652.743,"text":"我們認為他只要取得輸出許可證明我再講一句話就好了這是必要喔必要必要這是必要這是required這不是說可以讓你得是必要這個我請採購事主沒有時間的關係這個有關委員所講的是特定資格主任時間的關係如果你們講的跟昨天跟時候一樣那請提供書面就好我們請回應我們委員的質詢好"}]}},{"id":"166495","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166495","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0f1c418cd4d27b09f212f972bfaabac2cab7014e9f0b274621257d1c12132fb9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:57:24 - 12:07:44","影片長度":"00:10:20","會議時間":"2025-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22 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我們請國安局長跟部長請蔡局長 顧部長 謝謝"},{"start":13.362,"end":38.128,"text":"好 委員好部長好 局長好局長 部長不知道有沒有注意到最近有一個滿大的一個新聞那是在烏克蘭的一個水下無人艇的一個奇襲那據傳烏克蘭方面指出這個俄軍的機構級潛艇有遭到重創那我們從這個案例我們看到烏克蘭他用的是水面下的載具在俄國的港內打擊他們的艦艇那"},{"start":40.763,"end":53.647,"text":"過去我們講到戰爭的時候可能都是講前線或者是直接面對面的這種也不是面對面就是直接的衝突那現在包含從豬網行動到這一次的行動我們看到有很多的狀況是在敵後"},{"start":55.968,"end":81.235,"text":"那從水下港內到隱蔽的去滲透的延伸那這跟國安局的情報的取得是有直接的關係那不對稱的手段要打到要害那首先就是情監偵我們要得到資訊知道敵方的或者是對方的這一些資產戰略資產或者是戰術的資產什麼時候在什麼地方出現那我們可以採用什麼樣的方式去完成我們自我防衛的目標"},{"start":82.441,"end":108.781,"text":"那我看到说我们国防预算的编列我们不管是在弹药的采购上面不管是在这个擎肩针的资源的投资上面我想请教对于这一种演练特别是这种在敌后的可能性的去消耗敌方的资源的演练目前因为这一次的这一个乌克兰用的这种方式它是由他们的反情报局跟海军协同去处理"},{"start":109.642,"end":135.217,"text":"那我方當然是有在發展自己的潛艦國造有沒有去假想中國利用他在國內的這一種情報人員的資源得知我國的潛艦在何時何地會在什麼地方停泊那可能用類似的狀況來去執行他們的敵後任務不知道這個方式局長有什麼樣的掌握以及海軍可以做什麼樣的反制嗎"},{"start":136.787,"end":152.274,"text":"我大概先就我的部分跟委員做個說明那就俄烏戰場上的一些發展的趨勢我們確實有在關注那正如委員所提到的那烏軍他在很多的戰場的一個創意上他發揮了非常多的創意我們有在注意"},{"start":152.654,"end":171.173,"text":"那委員所提到的是會不會中共用類似的手法來對我們境內也來發動類似的攻擊那當然這一部分我們有類似的專案來提醒到有沒有相關管制物品來入關的一個查驗這是第一部分那第二部分當然也有國內的可能中共的協力者"},{"start":171.553,"end":187.923,"text":"不是針對那些所謂的竊密協力者而是他的一個協力者他可能有一些武裝攻擊或專業相關背景知識的名單的管制那這部分我們有在做一些的掌握那也請我們相關國安情報單位要注意到這些特定的對象或團體"},{"start":189.544,"end":207.823,"text":"我們無人載具的演練因為我們沒有辦法也不希望永遠都不要有這樣實質上面的這種攻擊的行為或者是防衛的行為因為這真的代表說我們沒有辦法阻止或者是嚇阻戰爭但是萬一有這樣的狀況出現的話我們必須要具備這樣的能力一方面是反制"},{"start":208.523,"end":231.649,"text":"就是反對他們的介入就是說嚇阻他們的介入或者是知道說讓中方知道說我們知道烏克蘭有利用類似這樣的狀況去擊毀俄羅斯的潛艦我們有做好防範所以包含像這樣子今天我們在國會的質詢公開的資訊把它揭露出來就是說我們有準備我們有防範我們會監視這個我們的海港各個重要的"},{"start":232.809,"end":251.469,"text":"我們重要艦艇的海港我們會有這些人員的這種防護那不然跟警政署也好或軍隊的這個巡邏也好我們都會有做好注意但是我認為像這種的能力海軍跟我們的官局也好或者是其他的情報單位也好我們必須要掌握說"},{"start":252.971,"end":273.291,"text":"中國方面的這些重要的港口他們什麼時候有什麼樣重要的資產在那邊那我們可以做一個嚇阻的力量說我們或許有這樣的能力所以我們的水面下的無人載具的這一個能夠去測試能夠去演練的地點那就非常重要就我所知現在主要是在高雄跟蘇澳會有"},{"start":275.493,"end":299.399,"text":"隨便下的無人載具可以去做測試有沒有可能考慮在多這個事辦或者是說多擴大因為我知道都是要申請即可來但有沒有辦法就是提供一些更基礎的建設讓更多的中小企業新創產業創新產業能夠在他們除了製造之外能夠有地方去做這個訓練不知道部長有沒有什麼樣的回應我們請中科院來好 院長"},{"start":307.765,"end":335.615,"text":"我們除了那個在海上實際測試以外現在我們主要的測我們是用水槽第一個就是金屬中心它在高雄協定有一個大型的水槽第二個成大有它的水槽第三個就是海委會的海研所他們現在正在也在建置另外一個水槽這是我們都可以提供給國內業界來使用的謝謝院長除了這個測試之外我的意思是說演練就是假設場景那跟海軍執行這種訓練的話"},{"start":338.26,"end":358.008,"text":"如果是這樣的話我們會協助這些企業來申請和執行因為我們要的是他執行的能量而不是他數據上面的展示而已因為很多時候他們不是用最好的水面載具或者水下載具可能都是拼湊出來尤其他們的工業的資源跟能力不見得比台灣好但是他們就去執行這樣子的能力那我們"},{"start":359.288,"end":380.052,"text":"中共沒有什麼實戰經驗但很遺憾的是台灣我們不遺憾 可值得慶幸但我們也沒有類似的經驗所以演練 演習就非常重要所以我把我們看到的包含一些因為我們未來民雄航太園區會有那民雄航太園除了這個空中飛行的載具之外"},{"start":380.452,"end":406.324,"text":"其實有一些廠商跟一些企業都開始有關注到這些他們想要做水面水下載具那我不希望他們只是做出來我希望他們可以實質參與海軍的假想的演練那這樣的話才可以符合我們實際上的作戰的需求有跟委員報告現在除了無人載具我們包含無人機還有無人狗還有無人水面艦我們都有協助業界在做相關的測試和訓練"},{"start":408.605,"end":431.21,"text":"訓練訓練更重要好謝謝謝謝院長那部長那接下來就是要請教部長那局長可以先回謝謝部長關於這一個全球衛星的導航系統我們現在主要最常用的是GPS那主要就是GPS也好那我們主要是希望得到的是定位導航跟這一個"},{"start":432.19,"end":460.261,"text":"授實的服務 時間那很多跨系統協同的基礎那很重要的就是時間跟圖像那兩個結合在一起那接下來我們台灣要這個投資在TDOM那本質上我們要可靠的這個時間同步才可以做到協同但是我們知道在遇到衝突的場域的時候很多時候我們的這種全球衛星的導航系統GNSS或者是GPS也好一定會受到阻擾"},{"start":461.221,"end":475.783,"text":"所以system of system就是備援的這種狀況或者是過去可能是以中軌道為主那接下來包含這地面的跟這個PNT衛星或者是低軌衛星的這些系統是否已經納入建軍的這個需求"},{"start":476.664,"end":490.638,"text":"因為現在我們的國軍自通信的韌性的專案衛星服務的租用是46億餘元賴總統在先前1.25兆的國防特別預算有宣布衛星跟通訊的編列是125億元"},{"start":492.159,"end":510.76,"text":"那這些專案中我目前沒有仔細看到應該說沒有明確看到PNT衛星就是Position Navigation跟Timing的這個備援的壽司體系的投資不知道這方面部長針對這個PNT衛星或者是備援的PNT是不是已經納入建軍的需求我們請"},{"start":513.342,"end":540.15,"text":"跟委員報告有關於PNT的能力的提升跟設施的部分我們在前面的幾個軍購案包含F16V不要拐動我們就已經納進去我們未來更新的規劃那新的特別預算裡面我們相關的項目著重在系統整合的部分當然這個部分也是未來我們規劃一個重點因為它是防空作戰裡面不可或缺的一環所以這個我們後續如果"},{"start":541.209,"end":563.347,"text":"委員有需要的話我們會另外再跟委員做說明好 這一個我們必須要假設因為其實包含美國的一些重要智庫都有把太空威脅那有去做一個整合評估那有把中方跟俄羅斯在特別是俄羅斯在烏克蘭實戰中所使用的各種的jamming的方式都一一的來去把它揭發揭示出來"},{"start":564.188,"end":586.847,"text":"接著出來之後我們可以理解到說GPS或者是包含之前有太陽風泡這些基本上GPS是有曾經失靈的狀況所以備援系統是非常重要的除了我們常常講的地軌衛星之外它的地面的設施包含BPS或者是增強型的羅蘭等等我想這些"},{"start":588.496,"end":608.909,"text":"都是我們必須要全面納入考量的所以我們講到太空的時候大家可能第一時間就講到是不管是中軌衛星 低軌衛星那地面設施的建置跟全面性的假設全部都被遮就是被遮罩或者是被阻斷的話那怎麼樣維持在地面上還沒有被阻斷的整個去做替換 及時的做替換"},{"start":609.99,"end":620.13,"text":"我想这是我们接下来的挑战再麻烦国防部可以提供给我们一些资讯看我们可以怎么样来协助是 我私下再跟委员做一个说明好 谢谢部长谢谢"}]}},{"id":"166493","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166493","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd087271218d6f7a6f684d4c72640307d48ab7014e9f0b274623a469af2c92659b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:35:11 - 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謝謝主席 我請一下林次長請林次長"},{"start":15.011,"end":38.318,"text":"市長好那今天鐵道局沒有來但是因為有一件發生在本月的事情但是到目前為止並沒有一個很合理的答案跟解釋我覺得在還是要趁著我們交通委員會的時候我要做質詢留下記錄也希望也要求我們交通部要去了解在今年的12月2號"},{"start":39.798,"end":56.477,"text":"那高鐵發生這個通訊系統的異常事故而造成了這個班次的延誤那當然這個媒體有注意到這個事件所以呢也有去問這個包含鐵道局跟高鐵"},{"start":57.518,"end":86.822,"text":"但是呢當時這個高鐵的說法是說這些這個具體設備異常的原因還在調查中已經依照鐵路法這個讓高鐵公司進行設備調查並且釐清是否為操作或人為因素那我想請教次長就您所知道到目前為止交通部有沒有掌握"},{"start":87.462,"end":95.791,"text":"12月2號所謂高鐵這個通訊系統異常而造成的這個班車的延誤到現在有掌握到嗎"},{"start":96.869,"end":122.208,"text":"高委員 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對不對"},{"start":150.499,"end":165.967,"text":"是的 謝謝委員的整理這樣非常清楚的順序所以這個對於國產啤酒來講是給予他們支持不然對於中國大陸這些低價的啤酒做傾銷而且有很多都是包裝也不實我覺得這個是"},{"start":168.308,"end":190.985,"text":"五年返請銷稅的一個實施期間效果應該會再增加可能這段時間有一些季節性的因素但長期來看我認為還是會下降再請教一下部長賴總統有說過他拜託工商業要幫員工加薪因為他說加薪會促進消費是一個良性的循環台灣經濟會更好"},{"start":193.146,"end":201.08,"text":"那我請教一下因為現在也12月了那我不曉得說我們的國營跟我們的公股銀行明年有加薪的機會嗎"},{"start":202.897,"end":230.672,"text":"这个部分当然会有比如犯公股的他们会去做评估然后公股事业的部分他们也会评估那也跟委员报告我们的国营的银行它的加薪已经跟我们公务员的加薪去脱钩了过往是我们公务员有调多少他们才跟着调那现在事实上是脱钩而是按他们的实际的业务的绩效那才可以鼓励同仁们在的脱钩啦就是说一般来讲公务员有加薪的话我们的国营银行一定会加薪嘛"},{"start":233.474,"end":249.97,"text":"如果说明年公务员没有调薪水的话我们国银行的薪水会不会跟着调所以他们已经脱钩了也就是说公务员没有调所以我就问说到底明年的国银行跟饭公务银行会不会调薪"},{"start":250.53,"end":266.652,"text":"这个可能我们目前来说看各银行他们自己就是泛公股他们会有他们的一套机制那比如说台银主营他们也会把他们的调薪输入银行这三家银行内部会去先做评估然后会报财政部那有没有机会调薪啊"},{"start":267.073,"end":271.198,"text":"12月了 如果要不要調薪也是這一個月的事情有沒有報上來目前對於明年的調薪還沒有我說那個三家國營銀行我說目前還沒有也還沒有報上來沒有報上來大概是沒有機會了所以也沒有報了等整年執行完成那已經12月中了"},{"start":289.298,"end":302.469,"text":"要整年執行完成到明年會他們會把整個績效的情況報財政部以後那部長覺得應不應該再挑釁因為總統有說這個企業幫員工挑釁是一個良性的循環可以促進經濟消費那部長的態度咧"},{"start":305.789,"end":325.789,"text":"對於我們當然鼓勵我們的企業能對員工加薪讓大家能夠分享經濟成長的一個果實因此在中小企業發展條例裡面我是說除了企業我今天問的是我們的公股銀行那當然我們是支持財政部理事長是支持公股銀行今年的績效好不好"},{"start":326.544,"end":343.842,"text":"一年的績效應該不錯應該不錯所以應該是有機會調薪大部分的銀行都比去年有所成長所以如果按照這樣講有績效的話員工應該是要調薪才對我們當然有一套機制根據機制來走最晚哪時候要報上來通常都是幾月吧"},{"start":346.3,"end":365.843,"text":"范工股他的條型有他公司的機制就不需要報到財政部那其他三家國營呢就台土輸嘛三家台營、土營跟輸營的話會報大概應該都會到一年的中間才會報啦對一年中間因為他們要把績效整個做匯報明年哪個時候明年大概都幾月我們大概都是幾月"},{"start":367.406,"end":390.022,"text":"明年2月就過年了跟委員報告純國營是由人事處來主辦不是國庫署我是說明年2月就過年了那現在要不要調薪甚至有沒有年終獎金都還不知道明年2月大概應該不至於不會在2月之前報那年終獎金呢現在我們的這個三家國營都還是最高績效還是4.4個月就對了"},{"start":393.084,"end":411.774,"text":"4.4那其他公股銀行我看這個去年的今年的年終獎金有最高兆豐應該是最高啦有到達8個月然後最低也有4.6個月都比這一個三家國營的4.4個月還高嘛對不對是對啊那我們講啦就是說這個國營其實你要給他鼓勵"},{"start":413.294,"end":438.342,"text":"那重賞之下也有勇夫國營的績效如果也不錯的話其實他的績效獎金就是說年終獎金就不能永遠只停留在4.4個月我們也曾經報院建議能夠調高至少調高4.6個月以上吧至少你跟其他公股銀行要一樣"},{"start":439.546,"end":455.155,"text":"那因為涉及到整個國營事業不是只有我們的金融業還有其他的國營事業那其他國營事業歸其他國營事業因為現在財政部你能管就是三家國營我知道謝謝委員能夠幫我們的國營銀行能夠爭取這樣的那因為涉及到人總那邊整體的一個考量"},{"start":456.736,"end":471.247,"text":"所以那你支不支持那我们当然支持我们财政部也报寒到行政院去有报到行政院去了那目前人总还跟相关的其他的部会机关还在作业因为我看一下我们三家国营是真的蛮可怜的它也没有伙食费"},{"start":472.108,"end":492.251,"text":"然後年終獎金最高就4.4個月然後也沒有員工的酬勞然後員工福利信託也沒有那你跟其他的這一個我們不要跟民營比就是飯工股銀行比那一樣國營也不好考那考進來之後發現說其他的飯工股銀行的福利待遇"},{"start":492.992,"end":512.469,"text":"比這個國營還要好那以前考進去台銀是很不容易的對啊 考進去台銀也是一種榮譽那現在我們又希望說台銀能夠做龍頭那可是他的這一個不管他的績效 他的年終或是他的一些待遇等等都比其他泛公共銀行低我覺得這樣對他們來講也不公平"},{"start":515.472,"end":537.199,"text":"我想謝謝委員對我們公股對於我們國營銀行的待遇的一個對那這個部分其實我們也財政部也都包含到就去做建議那4.4個月其實要突破的話因為是之前是立法院的做的決議所以我們也希望能夠有所突破那報上去以後目前人事總處那邊在做整體的一個建議那你們報這報多少"},{"start":540.439,"end":566.923,"text":"我们希望能够4.6个月4.6个月对 恢复到以前的4.6个月那伙食费员工酬劳福利信托这个有吗我们都有这些案子都在我们承报的承报建议事项里面那麻烦把那个承报资料也给我一份好不好好的 没问题好 那最后一点时间问一下这个新清安市到明年的7月就入了日那我现在看媒体都在报道说我们还有新清安2.0要接续的这一个新清安开始是不是"},{"start":569.004,"end":595.198,"text":"還說我們的四大支柱裡面包含年限40年寬限期5年額度1000萬都不會改變然後只有在貸款的年齡年收入是不是要排付貸款年齡因為現在沒有限制你六七十歲一樣可以去申請新清安現在也沒有排付所以新清安2.0接續下去是不是如媒體所報的這三個條件都不變除了這個貸款年齡跟年收入會做考量"},{"start":597.774,"end":619.59,"text":"有关新青安后面到七月届满以后后续的一些相关的一些措施要不要做调整那目前财政部会邀同相关的主管机关大家一起来讨论那表示就是说新青安七月落日之后还是会有继续有这个给年轻人的这个买房子的优惠的利率的贷款就对了"},{"start":619.93,"end":644.012,"text":"这个部分都在讨论的范围内我们也会听取各界的意见那至于没有那部长的意思就是说我只问说会不会延续下去是不是还有类似这种新千二点年的计划那当然有一些里面的一些条件限制资格可能还要再做讨论是我想委员您提的这些都是我们未来纳入考量的时候都一并来研议的事情因为这个是你们次长讲的"},{"start":645.474,"end":656.973,"text":"沒有啊 那是公股營高層認為啊公股營高層不是我們市長不是阮市長他有講嗎他就說這個新清安結束之後會有新清安2.0嗎"},{"start":658.359,"end":681.488,"text":"不是啦 我覺得還是跟委員說明所以這個政策會延續下去就對了我們後續會彙整相關的意見以及各界的一些反應我們整體來考量對 那我是說這個政策就是讓年輕人買房有優惠這個政策會再延續下去就對了但是裡面的一些資格條件什麼你會再做討論至於什麼優惠或什麼我們都會聽取大家的一些意見好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝李坤城委員"}]}},{"id":"166473","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166473","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd04c7afe2d7ff9cdb2212f972bfaabac2cfbddbc901a86fecf25d39fa0c7cb71d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:39:40 - 10:53:48","影片長度":"00:14:08","會議時間":"2025-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22 次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、國防部部長顧立雄報告「台海與周邊潛在軍事衝突熱點情勢分析與國軍戰備應變整備情形」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-17","start_time":"2025-12-17T10:39:40+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-17T10:53:48+08:00","duration":848,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-4-35-22"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.8072187500000001,"end":3.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.03034375,"end":4.890968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.324718750000002,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.72534375,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.927843750000001,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.978468750000001,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.88534375,"end":22.879718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.01471875,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.937843750000003,"end":31.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.17784375,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.228468750000005,"end":60.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.25346875,"end":129.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.10034375000001,"end":123.43784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.68159375000002,"end":129.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.01909375,"end":156.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.86221875,"end":135.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.39471875,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.39971875,"end":201.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.52909375000002,"end":187.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.18096875,"end":207.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.32346875000002,"end":214.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.91784375,"end":211.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.08596875,"end":235.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.84346875000003,"end":228.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.15909375,"end":263.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.02784375000005,"end":263.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.83784375,"end":309.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.53534375000004,"end":356.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.39284375,"end":362.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.97846875000005,"end":409.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.97534375000004,"end":410.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.32971875000004,"end":410.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.38034375,"end":410.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.39721875000004,"end":411.81471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.05096875000004,"end":434.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.13596875,"end":464.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.34659375,"end":487.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.82534375000006,"end":479.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.44846875,"end":513.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.7565937500001,"end":522.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.43034375,"end":532.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.13346875,"end":534.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.23846875,"end":608.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.12534375,"end":557.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.59409375,"end":641.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.0278437500001,"end":641.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.0447187500001,"end":641.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.09534375,"end":644.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.2297187500001,"end":656.6203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.6372187500001,"end":660.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.40034375,"end":673.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.4740937500001,"end":701.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.8997187500001,"end":678.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.3347187500001,"end":716.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.9653437500001,"end":730.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.7234687499999,"end":726.1453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.26284375,"end":732.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.67596875,"end":757.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.70159375,"end":794.1515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.59221875,"end":782.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":794.25284375,"end":833.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":833.60534375,"end":844.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":845.0972187500001,"end":847.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":846.31221875,"end":847.71284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.848,"end":27.767,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們有請蔡局長請蔡局長局長 午安好 蔡委員長局長 在這個我們國安局的這個報告當中齁展示了美日飛在第一島鏈的一個飛彈部署圖齁實際上這個已經形成一個針對中共的一個防護網啦齁那也提到"},{"start":28.971,"end":45.524,"text":"美軍印太司令所強調的這個巨子型的防禦要在低島鏈來落實那並且在這個戰略報告中也提到這個集體防衛的一個核心概念那我想請教局長就是在這樣的一個戰略的一個"},{"start":46.605,"end":60.781,"text":"過想之下是否代表我方跟美軍會有更強化自身在第一島鏈的一個存在那甚至有可能在協防台灣上採取戰略更加的一個清晰有沒有可能"},{"start":61.602,"end":83.698,"text":"事實上我們剛剛在專題報告當中也在口報的時候跟大家說明了那從美國的國安戰略來看那確實美國對印太地區的安全非常的關注把它稱為是國際競爭的優先的戰場那特別重點就放在第一島鏈那也特別提到了怎麼樣來嚇阻台海現狀被改變那視為是美國國安戰略裡面非常優先的任務"},{"start":84.338,"end":99.226,"text":"那從剛剛的報告內容也是在跟委員們說明美國從跟友盟的這種更緊密的協力合作來進行連演連訓以外也去增加在第一島鏈相關的一個部署來遏制可能中共的海空軍力的擴張"},{"start":100.006,"end":128.665,"text":"以及封控必要的海域這大概是發展的趨勢那就台灣來講因為剛好就是在第一島鏈非常關鍵的位置所以台灣也必須要去提升自我的防衛能力展現自我的防衛的意識那否則在整個國際友盟對於第一島鏈重視的過程當中假如台灣出現防禦真空的話那大家可能會認為台灣只想搭便車當一個freerider那假如有這樣的一個質疑的話那可能台灣的一個安全處境會處在一個比較不利的一個狀態"},{"start":130.086,"end":156.271,"text":"好 我們台灣的地理位置確實是在第一島鏈裡面非常重要的那我想再請教局長就是從這份戰略報告的內容來看在第一島鏈的盟友分工合作當中台灣是扮演什麼樣的一個角色那是否還有需要再推進相關的請職交換的機制才能夠符合戰略上的一個期待 有沒有可能"},{"start":156.651,"end":177.742,"text":"有 在這部分也跟委員說明一下那事實上我們除了這些戰略文件來理解重要的友盟他們的整體的國安或防衛態勢的規劃以外那我們也透過各種的戰略溝通以及情報交流來掌握相關的發展趨勢那也跟委員說明事實上從今年2025年 今年以來我本人"},{"start":178.522,"end":195.641,"text":"我本人已經跟全球有45位的國家情報首長跟副首長召開過近100次的雙邊的正式會談那就是透過這種國際的情報交流的機制來瞭解各國對於目前整個印太安全他們關切的主要重點在哪裡"},{"start":196.201,"end":213.08,"text":"以及在共同關切之下怎麼來發展更多緊密的包括戰略上的一個合作以及情報上的一個合作的網絡所以我們確實是有這些網絡的建置好 那這個非常好那也請局長這個部分要持續下去我們會持續好 那有關這份這個國安戰略所"},{"start":215.602,"end":229.831,"text":"這個代表的政治訊息及意涵在輿論上仍然有各種不同的一個解讀那我們還是要做最充分的一個準備扮演好在印太戰略中的一個重要的一個角色以及共同防衛第一島鏈的一個責任"},{"start":231.372,"end":256.204,"text":"這部分就請我們國安局持續的關注在第一島鏈的防衛當中因為台灣不只承受來自於中共的壓力那中共各種對台的複合式威脅那台灣也是站在第一線承受所以我們也累積了不少的經驗那台灣在面臨比較艱困的國際處境之下國際友盟對我們這麼的支持那我們能夠回報國際社會民主社群的就是去分享我們相關第一線"},{"start":256.984,"end":276.411,"text":"處理這些中共複合式威脅的經驗來提升國際我們共同的一個防禦跟安全的韌性好 那我想就近期這個東海跟西太平洋區域的事件再和局長您做一個討論在國安局的這個報告當中也有提到12月6號的時候中共的這個遼寧艦它的艦載機殲15在沖繩空域兩度用雷達鎖定日本自衛隊的F15戰機"},{"start":283.354,"end":307.57,"text":"那我們也知道這個火控雷達鎖定在軍事上往往被視為這個開火前的一個準備步驟那這不僅僅是挑釁 更是這個準敵對的一個行為那有關中共對這個日本軍機實施雷達鎖定我想請教局長就是評估這一類型的這種侵擾行為是否會有可能會擦槍走火"},{"start":308.61,"end":332.963,"text":"這個的風險 有沒有可能對 事實上確實是在 像委員所提到在12月6號的時候那中共遼寧艦的艦載機殲-15有透過雷達的搜索去鎖定到日本的戰機那這樣的動作是非常針對性的而且是有挑釁的所以我們可以看到日本的防相小群是在半夜2點鐘召開緊急記者會來譴責跟抗議這樣子的一個危險的行為這大概是第一部分跟委員報告"},{"start":333.783,"end":354.975,"text":"那第二部分在這樣的動作之後我們也看到在12月8號美國立刻啟動了美日安保的一個相關合作的一個機制那由美國的華盛頓號航空母艦的編隊跟日本的那個護衛艦來在日本東部的水域進行演習根本報告的是在12月8號美日啟動這樣的一個"},{"start":357.441,"end":372.28,"text":"航母編隊的演習之後中共遼寧艦就是在12月8號開始轉向返回它的一個母港所以跟委員說明的是中共當然是透過一些軍事的手段來對日本進行一些軍事的施壓跟脅迫可是在美國"},{"start":374.022,"end":399.178,"text":"日本的同盟快速的來啟動相關的一個防衛以及嚇阻的態勢之後那我們看到中國也是沒有希望看到緊張情勢持續的升高而去讓遼寧艦提早結束相關的演訓所以這次遼寧艦出第一島鏈大概只進行了16天的演訓這是歷來最短的過去一般都有20天以上所以大概整體的態勢從這一次的突發事件以及我們觀察美蒙"},{"start":399.838,"end":409.024,"text":"快速啟動的一個嚇阻的一個機制那也看到中共也是不希望這種緊張的對峙持續的升高這個態勢跟委員做以上簡單的說明"},{"start":410.441,"end":434.517,"text":"那在這個日本發布這個台灣有事說之後那中國這邊中共一直一連串的相關所謂的這個炮艦外交意圖要施壓日本製造威懾的這個訊息那我想再請教這個局長你們怎麼解讀中共這一次的這個行動的意涵在軍事或是政治上有達到任何的這種效果嗎"},{"start":435.185,"end":462.151,"text":"我覺得可能背後還是單單看中國對日本的施壓背後還是有一個比較大的地緣政治的圖像也就是中國在區域裡面希望成為一個霸權的角色那當然這一次是以所謂日本高市首相有一些涉台的一個言論來當成中國施壓的一個理由但事實上我們整體的判斷是中國除了關切所謂日本對於台海議題的關注以外"},{"start":462.611,"end":487.141,"text":"那中國也非常關切日本在推動美日安保的深化那以及日本在推動防衛政策的改革那以及後續在南西諸島軍事部署的這些狀況所以我想跟我們說明的是即使沒有高市的涉台言論中國還是會有找其他的理由來對日本施壓那這也是我們跟國際很多合作友方在交換意見的時候都有發現到這樣的共同的一個觀察"},{"start":488.061,"end":512.324,"text":"那另外這個中國跟俄羅斯的這個轟炸機在12月9號進行聯合巡航位置就接近日本的四國顯示中共對日本的軍事壓力持續提升那對於這個中俄轟炸機無預警的進行聯合巡航顯示中俄之間的這個軍事結盟更深化在東北亞的一個空中協同並且在期間更出現首次有兩國的這個"},{"start":514.826,"end":533.623,"text":"軍機同時航向東京引起周邊國家的高度警戒我想藉此請教局長中俄是否有可能常態化在日韓周邊的巡航美日韓在東北亞空域有何反制的作為大概中俄在"},{"start":535.35,"end":560.626,"text":"西太平洋的一個空中聯巡它是本來就有定期的這樣的一個活動那像去年它就進行了有兩次這樣的一個空中聯巡活動不過今年我們注意到的是它空中聯巡的時間有稍微晚一點那我們判斷是因為中國 抱歉 俄國的戰略空中武力受到了那個烏克蘭的豬王行動的無人機攻擊有受到影響所以今年的這個例行的空中聯巡有比較晚一點"},{"start":561.246,"end":582.808,"text":"那當然這樣子的話顯示的是中俄一起合作在挑戰區域的現狀也對日本做施壓所以委員可能有注意到在12月9號的中俄聯巡之後12月10號美國立刻跟日本啟動了戰略空中的聯巡由美國從關島派了兩架B-52H的轟炸機到日本海"},{"start":583.248,"end":603.928,"text":"跟日本的戰鬥機來進行空中聯合演練跟委員說明的是在日本海的這個美日的空中戰略連巡跟演練它有它的意涵因為日本海這個位置它剛好可以讓俄國的轟炸機要南下的時候會被美日的空中武力來進行阻擋而且在日本海的一個美國的B-52H的戰略轟炸機以它搭載的"},{"start":609.092,"end":633.156,"text":"巡弋飛彈的話是可以直接打到北京所以我們的解讀是美日確實跟剛剛一樣他有立刻啟動了一個美日同盟的一個防衛跟嚇阻的機制來讓中俄了解到美日同盟合作緊密度那更何況在12月12號美國跟日本的方向進行了電話的會議那也譴責了中國挑戰區域現狀的狀況以及重申美日同盟的緊密度"},{"start":633.416,"end":660.107,"text":"所以這大概是這一次美日同盟跟中俄聯巡我們看到的一些地緣政治的意涵跟委員做以上的說明那另外我想請教局長在這個近期包括中共對我們不斷的侵擾行為的過程當中我們是否有掌握到在這期間俄國他在台海有事的這個情境之下他們有可能會扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":660.767,"end":682.428,"text":"對 這部分我們有在注意那也是跟國際情報交流的一個非常重要的議題就是在台海有事的情境之下俄國可能扮演什麼樣的角色那第一部分可能是有涉及到的一些是軍事裝備的一個協助跟提供後勤對 後勤軍事裝備的協助跟提供那這部分可能是要注意的"},{"start":682.788,"end":701.388,"text":"那另外一部分可能也要注意的是俄國會不會在台海周邊海空域以外的西太平洋或東亞的其他地區會有其他的一些俄國他自己的一些軍事的巡弋的活動來增加大家對於這個印太地區"},{"start":702.389,"end":731.048,"text":"的情境的複雜度來讓美國的友盟在應處相關的狀況可能會面臨到比較複雜的狀況所以大概有從軍事或戰略面俄國可以發揮一些角色的情境那我們有在做一些推演好 那最後一個問題我想請教一下局長在本週一中國宣布制裁前日本智慧隊統合幕僚長也是擔任我國行政院政務顧問的這個岩崎茂將軍"},{"start":733.149,"end":757.314,"text":"聲稱他與這個台獨分裂的勢力有這個勾連干涉中國內政因此採取多項的反制措施我們看到這個外交部已經對於中國的這樣的一個跨境鎮壓表達嚴正關切那我想請教局長就是中共的是否會有可能針對挺台的相關國際友人特別在美日非之間擬定擴大制裁的一個名單有沒有可能"},{"start":758.082,"end":776.236,"text":"對 跟委員說明一下 這大概是中共慣用的手法他會透過這種所謂的境外跨境的一個施壓或這種威脅來針對他所謂的台獨人士或是友台的人士來進行這種所謂的法律戰 心理戰跟輿論戰的一個操作"},{"start":777.616,"end":805.165,"text":"一般我們從過去的案例來看它這樣的操作常常會造成一些反效果而且能夠達到只有象徵性的意義沒有實質意義因為這些友台人士他們並不在乎他們在中國不能夠入境或是有什麼資產會被凍結這大概第一部分第二部分的一個反效果是反倒會造成更多的國際友盟他們去提升友台的聲量表達對台灣進一步的支持而不會在中國的壓力之下有任何的讓步"},{"start":805.985,"end":832.482,"text":"那第三部分很多國際友盟他們會串聯起來更進一步的來批評中共在人權或是台海議題的挑釁我跟委員舉個例子在2021年中國就是對歐洲議會的議員進行了很多的制裁那但是在制裁之後我們可以發現到當時的歐洲議員對台灣更加的一個支持跟更加友好甚至也拒絕去批准中國跟歐盟正在洽談的"},{"start":834.224,"end":846.019,"text":"經貿投資協定 反倒讓中國承受了一些後座力所以我想跟委員說明的是中國這種操作大概只有一些象徵的意義沒有實質意義 而且會造成一些反效果好 以上謝謝 謝謝委員提問"}]}},{"id":"166472","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166472","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0bf4836a04db7f92a5e98c45d87103670fbddbc901a86fecf25d39fa0c7cb71d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:46:57 - 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謝謝主席那在場的學者專家 各界代表還有我們立法院的副秘書長好 我們來先問一個問題今天的題目呢是中央民代跟地方民代奇怪了 中央民代跟地方民代難道是同樣的東西嗎立法委員領誰的薪水地方縣市議員領誰的薪水大家有沒有想過他到底是不是領薪水我們來看一下"},{"start":38.869,"end":55.75,"text":"其實呢立法委員是有領待欲算是薪水的根據過去曾經有過的立法委員監察委員過去的監察委員也是國會議員他是間接選舉出來的稅費工會的知己暫行條例曾經短暫的規範過這些人"},{"start":58.653,"end":81.362,"text":"國會議員是有資領什麼資領酬勞待遇的而且根據我們地方制度法地方的官民意代表就不太一樣我們比照一下我們中央民意代表過去領的薪水叫做稅費公費地方民意代表是研究費研究費是薪水嗎好 再來看我們投保我們的職業保險立法委員一定是比照投保公務人員公保"},{"start":82.122,"end":106.232,"text":"但是地方民旦呢他可以選擇參加勞保尤其是他本來就有勞保的人他根本不參加公保再來職業限制立法委員規定他不得增任官吏在憲法裡面他不得執行業務在立法委員行為法裡面而且不得置領國營企業的薪資那麼如果是地方的民旦呢大概只有利益迴避原則的適用他沒有辦法擔任公務員跟老師所以你會發現"},{"start":107.412,"end":135.013,"text":"很多地方的议员他原来是教师他选上之后他就怎样他把他的教师就保留他去当议员好我们往下看好我们看最近的影响到我们今天讨论的这个助理费到底是什么我们看到有一个高虹安案出炉了这里面高院判决说他撤销他的贪污部分无罪但是他是有公务人员登载不实奇怪了那贪污费跟贪污治罪条例无关吗我们来看一下"},{"start":135.914,"end":160.383,"text":"其實最近陳毓正委員很紅他有一個被認為是自肥除罪的法案但是法務部馬上打臉在上週的時候法務部說根據4.499號這個你要是有對於自己有利的修法要到次界才實施如果真的要幫有些貪污助理會的人除罪就像你現在修法了就算這個法可以除罪也是到下屆才能適用"},{"start":161.423,"end":185.211,"text":"但是有沒有辦法除罪呢 我們往下看我們問了法務部 法務部說這個沒有改變貪污自罪條例的構成要件立法院組織法第32條就算修法過了也不用刑法 不是用刑法第二條它除罪無效 那我們就很好奇啦那沒有用 本屆不能用 也沒有效果的法案還有需要維持嗎 我們再往下看"},{"start":185.951,"end":202.898,"text":"其實這一個高雄案的二審法官他審清申請釋憲他在1月2號的時候說認為他在審理高雄案的時候認為立法院組織法32條違反法規範的明確性可是憲法法庭說怎樣不受理"},{"start":203.798,"end":207.381,"text":"為什麼不受理這跟我們二審法官高雄案有關聯嗎他說啊這個裁定了154號的裁定說"},{"start":234.479,"end":253.497,"text":"大法官都這樣講啦所以有三個問題第一他導致被告受刑罰的法律是貪污自罪條例不是立法院組織法第二該案挪用助理費是不是違反這個貪污自罪條例大法官說按你們法官自己判斷最後事實認定法律解釋這個是法官 二審法官你要做的事情我們往下看"},{"start":254.258,"end":276.285,"text":"高院的見解是什麼高院的見解在這次法官判的見解他說他是實質補助可以彈性雲芝是委員以僱主的身份統籌他是屬於補助費的性質講得非常好聽啊所以只要沒有放進自己的口袋花掉就是合理的嗎就是合法的嗎我們來看一下助理會可以去支付Massalati的費用嗎"},{"start":277.645,"end":288.771,"text":"這個之前呢有詐助理費買貓砂交羈押的這是地方的議員可以購買禮品贊助李明活動嗎曾經有人拿11萬的這個助理費去繳信用卡如果是實質補貼可以拿來買飼料繳車費繳卡費跑紅牌場那都可以嗎我們來問這個問題"},{"start":294.915,"end":311.991,"text":"租體費 不管他名目怎麼稱是不是歸誰支配他是公款 重算沒有貪污 沒有私吞但是沒有私吞不等於你有沒有私用也分不出是不是有公用關於告黃漢案 法官只證明了他沒有私吞不構成貪污"},{"start":313.132,"end":336.535,"text":"但是這個錢用在哪裡去法官不論法官只說他這個讓公務員登載不實公務員登載的是助理的薪資費你沒有用在薪資費登載不實至於你用在哪裡我就不管我們再往下看所以呢去貼雙眼買雙眼皮貼去洗頭去美甲沒有把公款私吞不等於沒有拿來私用更不等於公款公用"},{"start":337.196,"end":346.297,"text":"所以呢 我們立法院組織法 他說啦第32條 辦公等費用等付表有規定那如果這個規定不足的你就可以讓他私用嗎 往下看"},{"start":347.242,"end":369.017,"text":"所以說公會助理的法制化公款公用是最透明就算他是屬於被認定為實質補助彈性運用但他跟立委的酬金和加班費以僱主身份統籌管理這些概念我們還是要回歸到目前我們立法院公會助理任用法當中他把他的任用資訊訓練都訂出來了名冊限制都寫出來了這樣經費來源才確定明顯所以規定明確專業任人"},{"start":377.642,"end":397.739,"text":"不能为清等的赵耀进往下看所以最后我们的主张个人的主张认为助理费的法治化应该讨论的是立法院公费助理任用法的草案而且我们支持我们也支持民众党的总召黄国昌委员他说的公款公用但是在这里也要请黄国昌总召回去想一想"},{"start":398.799,"end":415.013,"text":"購鴻安本身在立委期間是民眾黨的公職他的私用實質補助就算是實質補助他算不上是公款公用還是把公款私用我想這留下一個大問號讓我們繼續看後面的觀察 以上"}]}},{"id":"166477","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166477","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0dac1842a653d918e84d4c72640307d48486d4848cd7fb6f33b1f0242bc217b355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:10:46 - 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感謝主席本席邀請我們交通部林次長請次長還有我們港務公司葉局長周董事長周董事長委員早好 次長早次長我今天跟你談一下我們發展觀光就今天的一個主題我們提到了郵輪的問題"},{"start":27.802,"end":50.108,"text":"像我們台南大概這個月開通了兩條的國際航線要不然疫情以後台南機場就完全沒有定期的國際航班那郵輪也是我記得我在這個地方一直請交通部像公關署還有我們的港務公司要協助"},{"start":52.568,"end":80.074,"text":"這個郵輪能夠也來到台南台南也是非常好玩的地方大家一起來推動為什麼呢因為現在這個郵輪的旅行看起來是未來越來越多人的一個選擇我剛才那個根據國際的那個報導在2024年全球的遠洋郵輪的載客量在去年就創下新高有3400多萬人"},{"start":80.951,"end":102.171,"text":"還要再增加去年3400萬但是到2028年估計要到4200萬那這其中亞洲是一個很重要的市場那去年的估算2024年亞洲有超過260萬名亞洲客上了郵輪去旅行年成長率13%兩位數的成長就非常高"},{"start":105.663,"end":120.825,"text":"那另外東亞的五大市場就是亞洲其實主要就是五個最大的市場那台灣現在是被認為非常有未來性你看亞洲第五大市場是我們台灣"},{"start":121.846,"end":145.551,"text":"搭乘郵輪的人數將近20萬人次年增率將近45%這個是非常有未來性但我也曾提過很可惜台灣的這種國際郵輪幾乎都是集中在基隆 高雄當然他們有先天的優勢但是就於好玩來講的話還有很多的地方"},{"start":146.391,"end":172.052,"text":"但是郵輪要來停靠它當然有一些先天的限制例如你的碼頭還有你的周邊就是說接駁等等的相關配套這一點我們希望中央跟地方能夠進一步的合作在2023年跟2024年國際郵輪停靠台南安平港都是掛零都是零到今年9月總算有來了一艘"},{"start":173.473,"end":185.823,"text":"叫奧德賽奧德賽的郵輪明年還要再來根據我拿到的資料港務公司說明年安平港會有兩艘郵輪等於四個艘次"},{"start":187.57,"end":215.829,"text":"他們停靠跟離開預計會帶來2300個旅客這個當然佔台灣所有的旅客人次幾乎是千分之二 非常非常少台灣一年有113萬看到齁 我給你的數字83萬的停靠的旅客人次來台南只有2300個"},{"start":217.731,"end":235.273,"text":"所以希望能夠大家一起來推動安平港現在港務公司在周遭也有一些相關的建設我們也期待這個地方能夠未來成為台南一個新的觀光亮點這點是不是也請說明一下"},{"start":238.069,"end":256.386,"text":"謝謝委員其實部長也去了好幾次確實我們在去年的時候就特別希望今年能夠有所以是從菲律賓上來這一次看起來我們安平港的特色應該是以探索郵輪跟精緻郵輪為主要的影客的對象"},{"start":257.006,"end":278.124,"text":"那現在就是相關的設施都出來以後就差最後一裏就是Access就是它的連外的部分因為我們台南確實有非常重要的景點跟美食所以這個部分是這邊的強項那我們也會不斷的來跟外商去做接洽然後希望能夠到台南來"},{"start":280.597,"end":286.342,"text":"根據資料 明年一月一月二十一號有一艘海洋富士號會停到安平港"},{"start":287.506,"end":316.722,"text":"明年的6月17號有一艘奧德賽郵輪也會來停到安平港根據我們港務公司的分析郵輪的旅客下船以後多半選擇都是就近在安平旅遊 觀光因為港口就在安平只有少部分的旅客他們會到市區甚至更少數的跑得比較遠跑到嘉義 跑到高雄"},{"start":318.001,"end":346.886,"text":"那這個也說明了遊輪公司是否停靠還有一個重要因素就是你旅客下船以後離開了船有沒有東西可以看那交通方不方便是 我們也跟委員報告一下就是故宮南院的部分其實有些真的還有點興趣所以我們也希望能夠把服務半徑能夠拉長一點那這個東西的配套我們也跟相關的單位在做接洽"},{"start":348.593,"end":367.751,"text":"這個就是說我們下船以後可能就需要一些解剖你不可能全部只靠旅客自己去找Uber去搭計程車另外對郵輪公司來講如果他旅客下船以後交通不便利你沒有做配套的安排他通常不太願意選擇停靠"},{"start":369.773,"end":397.042,"text":"所以這一點的話就可能必須郵輪公司讓我們港公司的協助或是跟他地方政府大家一定要先把這個交通的便利性先給解決 協助解決了好 次長謝議員 確實誠如您所提到的郵輪靠港以後的除了就近以外他應該有幾條航 這個叫旅程而且事先應該就跟市府相關單位規劃好以後讓這個郵輪依靠岸就可以選擇"},{"start":398.022,"end":418.573,"text":"所以不是當場讓他們各自去挑才對所以這個我們應該要這樣來做另外就是現在港務公司在港區就旅客下船港區現在有大量的一些投資建設水岸複合觀光遊記區"},{"start":420.334,"end":449.577,"text":"那這個地方的進度如何目前跟上一次會刊的按照委員的指示我們有幾個部分現在加強就是包括的那個道路的擴建然後影客的部分這個部分我們持續相關的那個停車場的部分也都建置完了然後剩下是遊客中心的影客跟委員報告一下那相關的這個確實商業的服務設施比較不足那我們現在再加強南側的部分"},{"start":450.498,"end":468.38,"text":"因為就是北觀光南自貿那現在這邊的港區的北邊就是靠健康路市區這邊你現在五月水安複合觀光遊記區這個目前的進度我看你寫的是明年就要開始分期動工了"},{"start":469.681,"end":492.575,"text":"對 東風的部分是這投資了不少投資了好像有將近200億對 現在就你的報告裡面你寫到是將近200億有安平新篆的綜合度假城有商場有什麼海洋生態學院什麼廣場 休憩中心 度假飯店商務中心都有對 然後我們也希望能夠加強產學的合作"},{"start":493.095,"end":514.458,"text":"我給你看一下 這個地方其實風景很漂亮啊 市長 岸邊這收的很漂亮你如果能夠增加更多的 市長你是台南人對啦 這是我們台南的啦你如果回到台南的時候 那個附近走一走 等你這裡又蓋起來之後我相信喔 對於吸引遊輪來靠港"},{"start":515.779,"end":541.525,"text":"這個絕對是更加的有魅力跟委員報告相關的服務設施之後我也希望跟航港局做一些合作跟國防署做合作那個跳島旅遊的部分因為高雄港跟安眠港確實很近那海上的旅遊台灣如果天候不錯其實是一個發展的潛力那我們一起來推動好不好讓中央跟地方能夠進一步的緊密來合作好 謝謝市長"}]}},{"id":"166476","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166476","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0463feaa7a8f9a4b6212f972bfaabac2c486d4848cd7fb6f33175bca7e66acddc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:54:19 - 11:06:09","影片長度":"00:11:50","會議時間":"2025-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22 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應該是先請顧部長 請顧部長不好意思 第一張是請局長 不好意思請局長 先請蔡局長"},{"start":18.717,"end":37.283,"text":"好 謝謝 陳委員長好 局長好那這個呢一開始還是要說就是因為這個這個今天這個大家在下面也是等待了一陣子今天這個時間真的是拉得有點比較長那我個人是喜歡熟食但我不知道大家每一個人大家的風格會不太一樣"},{"start":38.208,"end":53.328,"text":"那但是我要先講一件事情就是剛剛陳永康委員有提到這個國防的這一個1.25兆的預算這個程序委員會那我在這邊還是要導正一下視聽就是說呢過去八年民進黨也沒有在程序委員會檔案"},{"start":54.99,"end":70.203,"text":"報告事項從來不會檔案為什麼因為程序委員會是要審查比如說一個法案有沒有記得寫修法理由有沒有15個委員簽名就是他看刑事要件刑事要件完了程序委員過了一讀然後來這個委員會"},{"start":72.205,"end":97.339,"text":"如果按照剛剛前面幾位委員說這一個8年1.25兆裡面應該怎樣 應該怎樣要多多溝通那就應該趕快進來這個裡面國防外交委員會來溝通嘛 對不對所以我覺得用這樣的一個方式去正當化現在在程序委員會跟院會一讀的時候在那邊檔案我覺得是完全不正當的我覺得還是要特別說明這件事情這個絕對是一個不正確的事"},{"start":97.999,"end":113.014,"text":"這也跟我今天質詢的內容有關是因為不管是從這一個我們這個美國的國防授權法案又或者說今天中國的網路安全法其實國安現在是有非常非常多的挑戰而這些挑戰國防跟國安現在幾乎是要融為一體"},{"start":113.915,"end":134.328,"text":"所以呢在這邊呢第一個就是我要提到這個網路安全法剛剛其實我聽到前面的委員也有提到很多資安的問題我也要在這邊先講一下資安的問題有很多層面第一個他有可能是駭客攻擊第二個他有可能就是我們講的insider threat那insider threat又有分成很多有些可能他是工程師他本來就在裡面工作這也是insider threat"},{"start":134.688,"end":151.668,"text":"他也有可能是外面的人進來插一個USB這個也是insider threat所以每一種他要防護的方式不一樣而有一些是你的資安的系統要加強那是妨害的有一些你是在前面的門口要做安全檢核的有一些是工程師你要去做他背景調查的這幾個都是不一樣的事情"},{"start":152.708,"end":173.521,"text":"所以呢那今天因為人大現在通過這一個中國人大通過這個網路安全法它裡面有提到網路安全堅持中國共產黨的領導這一個呢推進網路強國建設那我比較覺得有特別的是77條這一邊因為這個局長應該也很清楚就是我之前被說要被中國通緝他想要用這個長臂管轄嘛"},{"start":174.661,"end":198.952,"text":"以往大家很熟知的案件是李明哲的案件李明哲那時候是在微信上面寫了一篇說中國如何民主化結果被說是違反中國的法律但他仍在台灣因為他寫在微信上他說微信是中國的伺服器所以到之後李明哲在旅行的時候他就把他帶走說你違反我們中國的法律等等之類的如果按照現在修正後的77條他賦予中國對境外"},{"start":201.893,"end":229.127,"text":"處理這一個法律的這個能力包含了這個國家安全法 數據安全法反間諜法 對外關係法他要把它整合成一套體系這個有可能是這個法律戰的一個前哨戰因為他等於說我現在就是要把它整合在一起這跟2015年這個習近平軍改把他們網路的訊息部隊全部先把它找到這個戰略支援部其實很類似從那時候開始2016台灣就超多的不管是駭客攻擊 假消息的攻擊"},{"start":229.827,"end":256.681,"text":"所以現在我們對於這個網路安全法的生效這個國安局大概有什麼樣的一個對應的方案對我想大概分幾點跟委員說明第一個就是說在國際的網路安全的相關的一個侵害裡面中國一直是對外發動侵害最主要的來源那這也是我們在跟很多國際理念相近國家在進行一些國安情報的資安討論的過程當中大家都一起關注到的一個重要議題"},{"start":257.381,"end":280.775,"text":"而且中國的一個治安對外發動侵害它有不同的政府部會在透過他們所配合的這些私人機構或協力組織在發動相關的侵害包括可能委員熟知的國安部公安部軍方都有它的系統所以我要第一個說明的是中國是我們現在國際網安領域裡面大家最關注的一個發動網侵網害最主要的來源"},{"start":281.335,"end":305.241,"text":"第二個部分是有關於中國去通過所謂的網路安全法我記得跟委員針對這個問題有討論過也就是說我們民主國家在討論網路安全法案的時候比較重視的是對於民眾各自的維護包括像歐洲的GDPR相關的法案但中國的法案它是不斷地在授權它的政府可以有更大的權益取得更多的對 來控制相關的一些網路的活動"},{"start":306.181,"end":328.554,"text":"那所以可能後續我們會繼續來注意一下這個網路安全法通過之後他會不會再對外發動相關的侵害或是更有一個法律戰的理由來對中共所認為對中國網路安全造成威脅影響的個人或團體來發動所謂他要強調的境外的一個施壓或跨境的一個管轄那這樣的發展趨勢我們會繼續來注意"},{"start":330.095,"end":356.773,"text":"對 因為我現在發現就是說他們對於比如說可能是日本的國民對於韓國的國民一樣也可以做這件事就變成說因為今天以中國的角度來講他把這個整合以後他的法律戰是無差別的當然台灣是最重要的戰場因為他想要侵略台灣嘛他想要統一台灣那是他的語詞嘛所以但是他其實這個所適用的這個對象其實非常的廣泛所以剛剛局長提到很重要的一點就是我們在跟國外討論這件事情的時候以往我們當然是"},{"start":357.734,"end":383.301,"text":"基本的情報交換這個一定會比如說還有像假消息相關的比如說他們在這個國家丟什麼假消息啊這個彼此情資單位都已經會討論但法律戰這個部分等於是又等於要加一個Layer上去就變成說他有時候可能他挑戰的不是我們中華民國的國民他可能挑戰的是日本的可能是韓國的他們的應對方案跟我們的應對方案如果在情報上有Sync的時候這個時候就會變得特別重要"},{"start":383.761,"end":397.184,"text":"所以剛剛局長有特別提到這一點所以這也是就是我在後面可能本來剛剛質詢要問到這個已經先回答到了另外我是這個主席不好意思我要請顧部長就是 謝謝請國防部顧部長"},{"start":402.112,"end":425.664,"text":"部長好現在因為前陣子有這一個中俄軍機它有這個繞日我用這個圖來稍微說明一下就是第一個他們在日本外海做了很多這種鎖定 照的這些動作台灣當然演練多然後在這個南海在菲律賓那邊做了很多衝撞是比較早之前但是他們有集結兵力然後也有射炮彈這個都發生在12月"},{"start":428.746,"end":452.59,"text":"所以就是說這個整個這一個12月其實以這個情勢來講說真的應該是非常的動盪而且很明顯的就不是只有針對台灣他幾乎是在整個第一島鏈都在做這些事情那美國當然相對應的不管是從國防授權從豪豬等等之類的這些法案不管是在眾議院的也有在參議院的通過這個對我們來講當然是重要的支持"},{"start":453.25,"end":476.823,"text":"但是現在很麻煩的地方就是在於說如果我們的軍購現在就是卡在那邊我們的總預算第一個沒省嘛我們的新興計畫當然是不能做然後再來呢我們的八年1.25兆這一些事情對於本來他們可能跟台灣想說台灣現在是需要軍力的全世界的軍力都在增加當中結果如果我們今天在預算沒有辦法通過之下"},{"start":477.423,"end":499.996,"text":"很多國外的廠商他應該會去尋求其他的國家了因為每一個國家現在都有這個需求所以我現在擔心的事情是說如果我們今天有這一個稍微有一個空窗期半年甚至是一年這個東西沒有辦法持續之後等到我們之後再跟對方想說我們需要武器我們需要新的系統的整合我跟你講那個工程人員可能都到別的國家因為別的國家採購已經結束了"},{"start":501.477,"end":519.309,"text":"我們在潛艦就會遇到這樣的問題潛艦我們算是起步得非常早但是我們要把所有的技術人員都叫來然後在同一個時間大家一起整合系統這個是很難約時間的所以現在我想請部長講一下就是說如果我們現在一直卡在這邊沒有辦法持續下去的話會有什麼樣的問題我想美國會對於我們台灣有沒有自我防衛能力的這個決心"},{"start":530.602,"end":557.397,"text":"這個信心會產生動搖這個如果以從美國剛發布國家安全戰略來講他強烈的建議要求盟友要共同分擔這個責任所以我們看到日本就是9兆日圓的這樣子一個有史以來新高的預算那當然更不用提到說還有其他的這些前進部署相關的作為來形成一個嚇阻的力量"},{"start":558.217,"end":575.691,"text":"那其他我們也看到韓國還有菲律賓甚至澳洲有紐西蘭等等大家都在這個這些區域周邊的國家都已經體認到這個中國的軍事威脅已經形成不穩定的一個因素所以我覺得"},{"start":576.536,"end":587.852,"text":"我們必須真的要通過這樣的一個特別預算我們如果不通過這樣的一個特別預算的話我想美國會認為"},{"start":591.736,"end":609.042,"text":"我們到底有沒有要跟美國一起包括還有所有印太區域的國家共同來產生一個聚子的能力然後讓這個戰爭不發生對 因為我覺得國家安全戰略剛剛前面有提到就是因為媒體會報導什麼台灣被提到幾次啊什麼等等之類的"},{"start":609.642,"end":627.644,"text":"但其實裡面最關鍵的地方不只是說台灣被提到幾次裡面最關鍵的地方是台灣對他們來講已經不是一個保護對象那麼簡單而是必須要一起來承擔整個印太安全主要的一個玩家如果我們要一起承擔照理說對方把我們納入盟友要一起承擔這本來是好事"},{"start":628.625,"end":657.865,"text":"結果當我們要一起承擔的時候結果我們國內沒有辦法達成共識我們的預算沒有辦法通過那我們就沒有辦法做到像我們這張圖上面整理的他說台灣應該要具備核心的能力我們要有嚴抗的能力我們要能夠拒止對方的行動這些事情如果做不到的話這個其實呢說真的不要說是關稅那麼簡單那個比較前期的事情光是之後他對於到底要跟誰合作他今天到底必須要部署在哪裡然後他的後勤到底在哪裡這些都會影響到這些其他國家的決定"},{"start":658.445,"end":672.156,"text":"所以當然我們在這邊如果今天錢有沒有花在刀口上到底有沒有買到應該有的設備系統整合到底整合得如何這個是我們立法委員關心的我們也要持續監督的但前提是這個東西要進到委員會我們才有辦法討論"},{"start":673.737,"end":689.283,"text":"我們才有辦法持續下去所以這件事情我們還是會持續的跟社會發聲也請國防部能夠有採取一些比較新興的措施我前幾天也有跟國防部在討論讓這些聲音能夠傳遞到人民的耳中因為人民知道這件事情"},{"start":690.441,"end":708.744,"text":"政治人物才有壓力政治人物才有辦法往前推進如果今天人民都對這件事情無法了解的話我們很多政治人物就在玩資訊落差然後故意用一些錯誤的數字來比較啊那這樣的話國防就沒有辦法繼續往前進進所以這邊呢我們就再一起共同努力因為時間到了 謝謝好 謝謝委員 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我們請林思明召委好 謝謝主席我們請莊部長我們請莊部長農業部的是農糧署副署長 陳副署長好 請陳副署長"},{"start":21.656,"end":46.25,"text":"委員好 是 部長我想我們今天討論海關進口稅責的這個案子我首先針對我國這個在2002年1月1號我們加入WTO成為第144個會員國距離現在已經23年了在啤酒的進口稅方面因為境外啤酒進口關稅後來就一直降 降到0"},{"start":47.671,"end":65.478,"text":"所以我们境外品牌进入本土市场的成本可以说是大幅降低但是我们本土啤酒的制造所需的主要原料麦芽还有啤酒花却仍需负担7.5%到15%的进口关税"},{"start":66.778,"end":93.511,"text":"當然按照WTO的架構各國都可以調降關稅但是卻不能任意提高各國承諾的一個稅率換句話說原料減稅是可行且合乎規定的政策工具之一讓我們的業者國內的業者更具有競爭力所以政府現在做的做法"},{"start":94.071,"end":113.828,"text":"你成品久就进口成品久关税是零但是我们进口原料这个税是7.5%到15%这个根本看起来就是对于我们这些这个在国外制造在国外完成制造的这些业者给予最大的优惠"},{"start":114.508,"end":136.943,"text":"对于本土业者而言造成严重的竞争上的不公平所以我们看起来现行的关税制度根本不是保护本土业者反而是在惩罚我们本土业者所以我们目前这样的税制结构部长你认为合理吗"},{"start":139.056,"end":163.664,"text":"謝謝委員因為委員也有我們召委也有提案所以在我們今天的報告裡面也做了一個詳細的分析包含我們的進口量進口值以及關稅的收入那當然如果這樣關稅的調降對我國產業可以產生怎麼樣的一個效益我們也做了分析那是因此在分析後我們認為說這些我們麥芽跟那個啤酒花都是進口量我們都是用"},{"start":164.324,"end":182.114,"text":"进口的量都97到86%都是用在我们的啤酒酿帐那如果我们降低它的关税的话也就是免征这个关税降为0的话确实可以降低我们国产啤酒的生产成本然后提高它的竞争力还有市产的占有率那么"},{"start":182.774,"end":207.112,"text":"有助于它和进口啤酒来做竞争这个是有关在产业面同时对于农业的部分因为它麦芽跟啤酒花跟农业会有关系我们也请了农业部的农粮署来表示意见他们认为大麦跟啤酒花在国内并没有经济规模的一个栽培所以调降这样的一个关税的税率他们是没有意见我们这样综合了"},{"start":207.572,"end":212.154,"text":"產業以及以關農業的部門的一個意見認為我們確實可以降低調降這樣的一個關稅讓我們的國產啤酒更具有競爭力那同時在稅收的部分我們也做了評估雖然關稅減少但是其他的稅收可以進增加那增加的結果事實上可以會有"},{"start":227.401,"end":241.798,"text":"9000多萬的進的稅收的收入我們因此這樣的評估以後也支持委員的提案財政部的方向是這樣部長我想你分析的已經很清楚但是接下來我想還是問一下農業部的意見"},{"start":244.221,"end":271.274,"text":"那個副長雖然剛才一直提到說我們對於這個大麥或者啤酒花的生產那農業部你的報告指出說在我們目前在國內並沒有大規模的一個栽植或者商業化的一個種植產業大部分就是大概這個大這些啤酒花或者麥芽進九成該不然講九成以上都是要去進口所以我們是完全高度依賴進口的一個狀況"},{"start":272.975,"end":299.073,"text":"所以在這種情況之下我們降低我們的這個原料的關稅除了降低用降低的方式我們今天修法說要降低以外那農業部農糧署你有沒有考慮剛才賴會員委員有問到對於我們相關的這些產業就在台灣來栽種這些原料這些產業的一個扶植那農業部有沒有做什麼規劃委員 召委好"},{"start":303.185,"end":314.471,"text":"剛剛講到關於大麥跟啤酒花這兩個作物它基本上是溫帶的作物那台灣是亞熱帶的氣候所以它國內沒有經濟規模的栽培"},{"start":317.973,"end":344.105,"text":"像以大麥為例他目前的農情調查資料在去年113年度全國的種植面積只有0.4公頃這個是因為他是溫帶的那也講到農業部的花蓮區農改廠在花蓮的那邊有四種啤酒花但是那個還在四種階段那我們也會來關心四種的結果再評估"},{"start":344.945,"end":348.447,"text":"他是不是可以進一步來做輔導跟推廣另外我們國內發展農村美酒不管是用台南的這些後壁剛剛講到的米或是像台中的霧峰的一泉香米或是其他的梅子或是包括草莓等我們都會發展台灣本土的農村美酒會做產業的輔導這個農業部都有在進行是"},{"start":372.722,"end":376.684,"text":"剛剛提到說我們也去試圖發展其他的美酒我們這次講的就是針對啤酒這部分當然你剛才提到大部分都要進口然後台灣是溫帶氣候不適合去發展這些大麥或者這些啤酒花的產業的種植"},{"start":397.294,"end":420.222,"text":"所以你既然這些原料都是要靠進口嘛那農業部有沒有思考如何幫助說我們相關的好像在花蓮花蓮有種植那個啤酒花是不是所以你既然認為說沒有生產的一個效益你有沒有去要想到說如何的去調整他的一個產業的一個發展"},{"start":422.158,"end":444.942,"text":"跟委員報告花蓮的部分它是在試種花蓮區農業改良廠在試種如果以國內譬如它試種的結果我們再評估在國內種少量的啤酒花它發展的是地方的特色不會是用價格所以花蓮是氣候適宜花蓮你評估跟委員報告"},{"start":445.322,"end":449.104,"text":"他在花蓮的農友曾國啟那邊試種我有去看過其實還要評估因為台灣是亞熱帶氣候溫度比較高一點試種的結果是不是適合我們農業部跟花蓮區農業改良廠會適宜的做調整說送不起來還一直去叫他送這個也滿奇怪的所以這一次降低整個關稅農業部的立場也是同意我們是支持"},{"start":472.893,"end":489.654,"text":"OK 好 謝謝我想再請財政部我想財政部剛才部長講了很多數據我們把啤酒主要原料麥芽跟啤酒花的進口關稅把它降成零之後每年稅收減少的金額"},{"start":490.915,"end":509.132,"text":"大概我刚才看了一下报告就是不到合计不到税损不到大概少了7435万这个数字在我们国务库的整体结构中并不会造成太大的一个冲击但是我们从反面来看"},{"start":510.593,"end":529.624,"text":"因為原料成本過高而導致本土釀酒業者的萎縮投資外移就業減少從而導致我們流失的恐怕不是只有關稅的收入而已而是我們的營所稅所得稅地方就業以及我們整個產業鏈的附加價值"},{"start":530.464,"end":550.247,"text":"所以付稅署你是否應該評估說我們的點不是在少收多少而是說如果什麼都不做長期會不會我們收得更少所以部長你剛才提到因為如果我們這一次把稅降為零之後我們的稅收反而會增加更多"},{"start":551.493,"end":557.815,"text":"謝謝委員也就是剛剛委員所提的如果我們把它降為零那關稅的稅收會減少4735萬但是如同剛剛委員所說的當我們把我們的啤酒市場的競爭力提高以後就就業人口來說也是有所幫助的另外我們也可以提高我們國產啤酒的銷售量所以在菸酒稅營業稅跟盈利事業所得稅其實是會增加的"},{"start":577.703,"end":605.876,"text":"而且會增加到一億六千九百七十四萬那如果這樣的增加跟減少相互來抵充了以後其實是淨增加九千五百萬的所以說是淨增加的所以部長你認為這次的修法方向完全是正確的所以基本上財政部支持這樣做完全支持是支持的農業部要經濟部經濟部呢經濟部也支持吧經濟部那翁市長我們也支持吧"},{"start":607.27,"end":613.815,"text":"都支持啦齁也是支持啦齁經濟部支持"},{"start":614.933,"end":638.898,"text":"這個也不會影響我們未來就是我國未來加入這個CPTPP或者我們其他自由貿易協定我們加入這些組織也不會受到任何影響會不會受到影響 經濟部這個部分我們都有綜合考量過都不會啦以上 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝我們謝謝林思明 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也划不來嘛"},{"start":287.273,"end":314.674,"text":"所以應該是如果以郵輪的母港的設計就是東北亞針對基隆東南亞針對高雄所以我就不曉得就觀光署跟我們港澳公司在做這個規劃跟佈局的時候比較長遠的規劃應該是怎麼樣去發展那我有提一個就是五輪五年郵輪倍增計畫啦五年其實倍增是算小case而已啦"},{"start":315.956,"end":332.738,"text":"但是你看我們看第一頁那個去年跟今年比如說倍增啦甚至都沒有增啦算一樣嘛那你如果沒有一個設定一個目標的話搞不好十年還是這樣"},{"start":334.83,"end":363.991,"text":"所以我是希望說港澳公司你看我們旅運大樓蓋得這麼漂亮那它的各項設施也比基隆港還好當然基隆港有基隆港的利多啦我剛講的你如果有分配分工分區的話就東北亞你去推動日本那東南亞來推動高雄我覺得這樣子的佈局是不是公關署跟港澳公司可以接受"},{"start":364.984,"end":393.357,"text":"可以可以我覺得116到120的五年的計畫我們本來就在擬然後委員希望能夠能夠郵輪備增的部分我們把他納進來但是我們真的需要公安署的幫忙因為這個部分團客的部分還有很多優惠的措施是公安署這邊在搭配的當然然後港的部分的服務跟我們那個旅運大樓變成國際郵輪大樓這件事情還有搭配剛剛"},{"start":394.577,"end":420.575,"text":"招委有垂詢我們希望能夠把這個國際郵輪的品牌包括的國際郵輪的這個國際會議廳還有我們的探索館能夠做串聯然後做這些參展主展那相信高雄港以現在這個我們講的五年計畫裡面郵輪倍增應該是是可期待所以我這邊跟董事長跟署長也報告一下"},{"start":421.596,"end":436.61,"text":"五年之後也許我們都不在這個位置但是五年之後交通部觀光署跟感光公司都還在我們現在定一個目標我們五年之後不管我們在哪個位置我們看到這個成果"},{"start":438.115,"end":459.302,"text":"是不是有出來那我們也希望委員給我們一點就是質量並重就是燒次跟人次要兩個來衡量才能夠最重要還是質量並重當然所以下一次我是希望聽到的就是說你五年倍增計畫打算怎麼做好不好因為我沒有看到你的打算我不知道未來"},{"start":460.402,"end":478.211,"text":"我們會提個計畫然後跟觀光署一起合作我們會一起合作把資源投入所以下一次我們講到郵輪的時候我希望觀光署跟港貨公司都有一個真的計畫出來我要看看你們怎麼規劃嘛才知道未來的機會可不可行嘛"},{"start":479.011,"end":496.267,"text":"你如果都沒有規劃 只用說的 質量變重到五年以後 還是質量變重結果也是沒改變的問題我們也在捏啦 要有五個方向的發展五個方向去做努力 包括海外的影客包括國際品牌的建立 包括我們的優惠"},{"start":498.87,"end":510.365,"text":"國內的這個 就是高雄港的這些商圈跟郵程 班日郵 一日郵的部分做穿接那當然我們也希望能夠成立專責單位跟人才的培訓所以我們現在簡單啦 就說剛"},{"start":513.069,"end":540.904,"text":"董事長講了這一些你就照你的計畫把它寫進去嘛那我希望五年之後不管我們在哪裡我們來看這個的確是倍增搞不好是三倍增那更好好不好用這個方向來努力我們跟光屬一起努力好 下一次就給我們計畫 希望委員給我們一些這個指導然後所需要的經費也麻煩委員能夠支持 謝謝好 OK好 下一次要看到計畫好 謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"166480","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166480","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd072fe0baf8772ef3884d4c72640307d48486d4848cd7fb6f30c497b3694df335b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:51:03 - 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文化部副市長政務員好這個次長好"},{"start":21.998,"end":47.744,"text":"這個今天其中一個議題是大眾運輸供給波音語言平等保障法的一個修正的草案這第六條這個特別提到這個有關大眾運輸供給使用語言的波音這個部分寫得很明確出國以外另英語 閩南語 客家語 波音"},{"start":48.544,"end":73.1,"text":"其他原住民語言之播音這個還有相關馬祖第七的當然這個大家對這個有不同的意見所以有這個提出的修正條文要把這個閩南語改為台灣台語然後這個原住民族語言加個台灣我們看這個"},{"start":75.305,"end":88.901,"text":"江東部的報告也支持這樣的一個修正要跟這個次長還有文化部還有我們所有的各部會還有我們所有的委員"},{"start":92.338,"end":116.887,"text":"原住民族語言發展法在106年6月14號公布施行當初我也提出這個草案我堅持原住民族語言為國家語言當初這個有不同的意見文化部跟這個人民會當初也不同意但是我堅持後來就通過了原住民族語言為國家語言"},{"start":119.161,"end":147.734,"text":"接著國家語言發展法在108年1月9號也公布施行當時文化部的部長當時就是現在的行政院的副院長所以為了避免產生很多的不同族群的疑慮所以這個條文原來條文早期的條文不是這樣草案原來不是這樣後來改成這樣"},{"start":148.991,"end":171.273,"text":"本法所稱國家語言 指臺灣各固有族群使用之自然語言及臺灣首語這個就是避免各族群的對這個語言的用詞的分歧而產生這個族群的一些問題國家語言發展法裡面也提到國家語言一律平等"},{"start":173.755,"end":199.562,"text":"文化部在這個國家語言發展法公布之後特別有一個Q&A這裡面特別提到為以法律名列各固有族群之語言名稱系為尊重各族群語言使用者慣常使用之命名前不宜以法令規範各國家語言名稱"},{"start":201.138,"end":224.963,"text":"不以法令 法例 今天我們就要談修法為什麼會有這樣的一個是因為譬如說法國大學一個黃東秋教授台灣使用的語言都叫台語這個羅兆錦教授他是台灣客家語言"},{"start":226.226,"end":250.289,"text":"文學會的理事長 早期的理事長過去也是中央大學客家語文研究所的首長過去他就覺得說這個台語改成閩南語是去台灣話我直接的感觸是閩南話改成台語是去客家話所以避免族群的"},{"start":253.497,"end":281.11,"text":"他認為是去客家化所以這個部分要去很審慎文化部啊不管客家人啊就在相關的這些第二屆國家語言發展會議的時候要把相關的這些考試啊名稱啊都把它改成台灣台語抗議客家人去抗議"},{"start":283.048,"end":309.828,"text":"客家人去抗議當然原住民也去抗議當然這裡面都是客家人所以這個部分要很審慎還要怎麼改閩南這個閩南人不喜歡用閩南語問詞要怎麼改當然是在法例名稱裡面不宜"},{"start":312.297,"end":317.021,"text":"臺語 臺灣語言嘛 臺灣語言的簡稱就是臺語所以這個部分 次長你的意見如何"},{"start":325.047,"end":340.137,"text":"報委員確實您的說明跟重點我們也理解這是委員的提案我建議在委員會裡面針對大家有共識的部分先來處理我們尊重討論文化部你回去跟"},{"start":341.918,"end":363.92,"text":"部長來做報告因為今天你的報告應該也是經過部長所看過的所以還是要回去跟部長報告這個既然之前之前這個我們文化部既然已經跟"},{"start":366.011,"end":386.8,"text":"這個所有的人民宣示不宜以法令規範各國家以言名稱所以這個部分還是要不要說這個說了現在又不一樣了在這邊也請交通部還有當然我們所有的委員到時候在審查的時候我們再好好的討論以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166479","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166479","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd09b08a6eb97f6971c84d4c72640307d48486d4848cd7fb6f30c497b3694df335b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:39:50 - 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趙偉我們是不是請次長請次長還有請民航局局長請何舒平局長"},{"start":19.737,"end":35.406,"text":"市長好 早 早 局長早那我想第一個當然身為台中的立委最關心的還是台中的雙港那尤其是空港剛剛我也非常感謝蔡其昌委員也共同的在"},{"start":36.286,"end":60.252,"text":"要求讓台中的國際機場可以更多的航線那現在有17條航線10條包機對不對那我剛好聽到次長跟局長回答蔡時昌委員提到日本即將有可能的航線從台中出發對不對局長你可不可以再說一次"},{"start":62.57,"end":81.152,"text":"謝謝委員確實明年就是像委員上面所提示的明年的二月會有日本的宮古島那這是在冬季頒表那剛剛有提到的就是說明年的夏季頒表就是在三月底四月以後現在就是說可能也會有成田"},{"start":81.733,"end":101.488,"text":"那主要就是涉及到日本方的一些地勤作業所以你有答應蔡委員也要答應我們全力的來協調協助讓台中除了日本的宮古島這一條已經既定的這個航線確定那未來呢在明年的夏季班表裡面台中飛日本"},{"start":102.348,"end":119.933,"text":"東京 成田機場的這條航線也能夠確認這個很重要那其中還有兩條我聽到的國際航線不知道有沒有確認一個是台中飛泰國清邁一個是台中飛越南大理有確定嗎"},{"start":121.43,"end":142.755,"text":"跟委員報告也要謝謝委員支持所以有關這一些提到的這個大粒或者是青麥它是包機型態包機型態會在這個農曆這個農曆的年假的前後大概包機的期限是維持多久的期間它大概是2月14號到22號"},{"start":144.855,"end":166.669,"text":"的過年的就過年期間的包機的航線那未來有沒有可能是變成既定的航線這個部分我們會請航空公司來評估看他包機的情形如果可以持續那讓他包機培養之後來看看有沒有變為定期航線的是我希望民航局可以"},{"start":167.089,"end":195.661,"text":"交通部民航局可以盡力的來促成那除了呢新宇航空以台中為基地那現在呢又有華信航空看到是華航即將交付兩架飛機客機給華信那表示未來華信的營運的能量會增加那也許就如同蔡啟昌委員所講的那是不是請交通部民航局這一邊可以協助不管是華航跟華信"},{"start":196.621,"end":201.544,"text":"積極的溝通協調讓華信的這個新的科技的營運也能夠有落腳台中增加航線的可能跟我們希望能夠成真那個要實際執行然後讓中部的鄉親能夠有更多的國際航線不管是飛出去或者是讓更多的國際旅客可以飛進來台中這個是很重要一件事情尤其我現在是沒有把那個運量"},{"start":226.798,"end":246.191,"text":"這個表拿出來因為剛剛我看到蔡啟昌委員有拿出來那事實上民航局手上也都有這樣的資料中部呢確實是有這樣的市場存在也有這樣子的一個運量那所以我也希望說交通部民航局在這一方面可以多積極的來協助台中清泉崗國際機場開闢更多的國際航線好不好市長"},{"start":251.996,"end":267.713,"text":"我想也要謝謝委員一直以來的支持那剛剛有提到的運量那我就跟委員報告一下就是說我們今年1到11月台中的運量是國際航線是153萬那這個已經超越去年的全年的140這個應該是108年的141萬"},{"start":273.258,"end":297.78,"text":"就是有增加 有成長增加大概百分之一百一十八比去一百零八年那整個航班也到達了每週一百二十一班那比疫情整個比疫情前是增加到百分之一百零九所以整個運量會增加那已經有超越那所以說這個部分有關航電剛剛有提到華信的部分有兩架新機我們也會來積極溝通協調"},{"start":299.341,"end":304.485,"text":"好再拜託次長跟局長我們拜託交通部要積極的協助台中的清泉港國際機場那爭取更多的國際航線那雖然呢局長剛剛跟我說台中的國際機場這個運量有成長但是呢如果呢跟其他的這個城市啦或者其他的機場比較起來呢我們的成長呢還是有空間的所以我要拜託局長跟交通部這一邊能夠積極的我們希望在"},{"start":327.543,"end":348.092,"text":"可見的明年度運量可以大幅的成長這個就需要大家一起努力好不好那要成長當然除了中央的努力也需要地方那我接下來要看我剛剛說有雙港除了台中這個空港再來就是海港那過去我也謝謝交通部還有港務公司很積極包括航港局積極來推動這個郵輪的觀光"},{"start":351.613,"end":359.04,"text":"不過呢 我看到一個數字啦這個大家可能可以來進行討論就是疫後的郵輪觀光大爆發那今年度的旅客達到114.44萬人次創歷史新高但是呢 我們再反過來看"},{"start":371.135,"end":389.42,"text":"郵輪進來台灣的各個港口那國際來台的旅客12萬人次這是你們的統計數字今年1到9月而透過郵輪出國觀光的旅客就台灣人出國觀光旅客是78萬人次那意思是說這個整個的逆差達到66萬人次"},{"start":392.452,"end":417.028,"text":"一言以蔽之台灣人出國觀光的多國際旅客透過郵輪進來台灣觀光的少那這一題要怎麼解市長還有我還是跟委員報告最新的數字現在已經是12月了所以1月到因為這是1月到9月所以我們第四季會有不同的變化而且大致上是國外客是40%然後國內客60%大概原則上"},{"start":422.572,"end":441.228,"text":"然後我們的燒次就是船的幾次的燒次也增加我們從這個今年預估是414艘那明年我們在算的時候可以對不起是去年414艘我們今年可以達到568艘567艘所以原則上有幾個雙管齊下的方式"},{"start":448.118,"end":463.565,"text":"好 董事長那雖然有500多艘今年你預估啦那問題是接著我就問你啦那我台中港進來我台中港的國際郵輪到底能不能破蛋啊那我們港務公司一直在跟我講很努力我也非常肯定大家很積極"},{"start":464.885,"end":477.579,"text":"那起碼你們提供你們有承諾也提供給我一個表單說2026預計有8艘次的郵輪要停靠台中那即將到的是三井海洋郵輪1月22日那有確定嗎"},{"start":481.423,"end":492.926,"text":"是 遊輪的都是會早一年跟一般的旅行不大一樣所以我現在只關心說明年的1月22號的這個三姐海洋遊輪目前都沒問題目前都沒問題啦確定確定喔 確定 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