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我請內政部劉部長 警政署長還有交通部副政次請你上你好我們今天大家都用沉痛的心情來這邊質詢我想先請教署長在這一次在台北車站裡面發生了這件事情我想問一下台北車站這一棟大樓裡面"},{"start":30.526,"end":53.415,"text":"高鐵是什麼警察負責?高鐵是鐵路警察局然後呢?台北市政府警察局然後呢?車站的大廳呢?車站大廳也是鐵路警察局車站的外面呢?台北市政府警察局就同一棟大樓有三個單位在負責是不是這樣?"},{"start":57.522,"end":76.133,"text":"兩個單位啦就是鐵路前台北市政府檢察局那你捷運檢察局咧那台北市的也是啊 我對啊就兩個單位是兩個單位但台北市政府就管起來兩個單位了嘛對不對一個捷運檢察局一個外面的一般警察嘛"},{"start":76.713,"end":79.335,"text":"所以其實以前就有說過同樣一個這樣子其實問題會很多"},{"start":94.927,"end":117.536,"text":"那像這一次的事件我個人是認為有的人主張像什麼就要發什麼細胞簡訊或什麼我個人認為這還有商圈不過如果像有這種事情發生的時候我們警察的系統裡面能不能自己發給自己警察系統"},{"start":119.598,"end":132.778,"text":"現在有什麼特殊情況發生怎麼樣怎麼樣第一時間讓他們知道因為你們除了無線電之外我覺得這個也是另外一個然後也讓所有的警察都知道包括幹部包括基層警察"},{"start":133.857,"end":153.251,"text":"委員 這個沒問題了 一發生我們就通報了就是說橫向聯繫的各相關單位所以我在第一時間我就通報不是只有通報台北市 通報全國 因為它是一個流動的我知道啦 你的通報 但現在很多人會覺得你們的通報好像有點小小的瑕疵嘛"},{"start":154.131,"end":179.043,"text":"對不對 剛剛有委員在質詢我們都有聽到 我只問啦這樣子可不可以啦 有沒有可能做得到啦有沒有必須做到啦我想我們的警察單位對於發生這個案件那除了就是說當地的這個圍捕之外其他做招臨近的我們的警察機關跟外勤的執勤統領是會做通報的"},{"start":183.606,"end":204.411,"text":"我剛剛說的 如果細胞檢訊給瘦二菌你覺得有沒有需要做到就是用手機的細胞的這種對啦 有沒有再必要再加強啦這個我想我們的食物面可能最快的還是以無線電這樣來通報會最快不見得他當時拿的手機就會這個"},{"start":205.151,"end":223.933,"text":"這個可能要再研究好啦 沒關係你回去研究啦你的無線電通報我不相信坐在裡面的警察局局長他一定都有收到他的無線電他有隨時配在身邊嗎報告員那個通報是群組中心會通報通報之後就會報告這個就是會有落差嘛"},{"start":225.046,"end":242.395,"text":"對不對 你敢承認沒有落差嗎你敢說都沒有落差嗎我想這個一定是我們的規範這個是我們的是啦 現在就跟你講補不足的地方嘛有沒有需要你回去研究嘛那這部分我們拿回去研究再來這個"},{"start":246.286,"end":260.982,"text":"有沒有 我們台灣雖然對這個突發狀況我也不認為這個是要把它界定成恐怖攻擊了因為台灣在恐怖攻擊裡面排名還是很那個也不算是恐怖攻擊但我們要有危機意識"},{"start":262.321,"end":287.604,"text":"我請交通部上來就是說交通部我們未來有沒有透過AI透過什麼我們只要在任何車站或什麼我們不要去辨識人也不要辨識如果有騷動有快速的人群的移動或什麼的我們這個馬上AI系統然後就可以連結警察然後這樣子來讓警察第一時間也可以掌握對我想這部分做不做得到"},{"start":288.024,"end":303.883,"text":"我想剛有關心到這個問題我想我剛提到我們大概兩個月後續去看因為過去我們其實曾經曾經要想做一些影像的辨識你們在台中的豐原火車站其實就有這套設備了嘛對不對"},{"start":306.265,"end":334.926,"text":"是啦 因為是因為人權嘛那我們現在不是要你去做人臉 做什麼辨識嘛對特殊的情況一發生馬上 其實AI現在都可以處理啦對不對 有人群的騷動有火有什麼的 馬上就可以跟警察連線啊是 這個我們來做研議好不好剛剛講的 因為在這個人權啊這個之間 取得一個平衡我剛剛提到 也跟那個前面委員提到我們兩個去做一個研議這樣子"},{"start":336.266,"end":364.161,"text":"好 這個我特別請你上來 就是署長你有沒有覺得如果未來有這套系統然後讓警察也第一個時間掌握你覺得這樣子會不會比較好我覺得很好很好啦 好那再來啦每次發生的像這種事情哇 基層警察承受的壓力也很大啦剛剛這個委員有質詢有什麼"},{"start":366.539,"end":390.237,"text":"署長 我們現在警察的基本教育基本的訓練有沒有特別像這種 我再說一次不算恐怖攻擊啦但這種隨機這一種的 我們有沒有在我們的警察從不管警專警大我們上課裡面有沒有特別教這些"},{"start":391.817,"end":406.087,"text":"食物上對於這個重大人安的一個這個狀況那我們警察單位是有在做這個訓練的那未來這個的狀況我們把這個重大人的"},{"start":407.048,"end":430.756,"text":"我直接講啦 有沒有可能把未來像這種的列入基本的課材基本的要 會 一定會一定會 會把它列入課材這應該很快吧 不管是在警專或警大會列為這個警察實務的這個教材對嘛 應該馬上就可以要求了嘛馬上就可以做了嘛我希望能夠做到這一點啦不要讓基層的警察 遇到這個 你看"},{"start":432.276,"end":441.529,"text":"他有心要保護人民但他可能對這些基本的他可能也沒遇過啊 上課也沒教啊我覺得一定要教啦 好不好可以嗎 可以可以喔 我最後喔"},{"start":446.897,"end":468.491,"text":"全世界各國的警察他的職務的內容其實都不一樣署長你應該很清楚像以色列的警察對這種恐怖攻擊或什麼的他是基本職責是不是對嘛那其實美國還有很多國家慢慢的警察其實都基本職責都有這些了吧"},{"start":469.591,"end":485.836,"text":"是吧 所以台灣雖然不是受恐怖攻擊這種國家但我們要預防於未來還有像這種突發狀況我們的警察我希望在他上課的時候就都要教他要讓他有這個基礎的素養"},{"start":488.197,"end":501.692,"text":"可以嗎可以 我們都希望他每個同仁都有防恐的素養對啦 他不只保護人民也要保護警察自己第一線衝鋒的人你不讓他有這種基本的訓練跟認知"},{"start":504.355,"end":519.911,"text":"你是害他亂衝而已啊你要保護我們基層的安全吧 好不好好 那明年可以開始了嗎可以 我們我們會以這個案件做一個案例就是會加強這些"},{"start":520.732,"end":523.896,"text":"署長我的意思不是這樣不是以這個案例我的意思是說你去看全世界有那麼多以色列什麼的你去拿人家的教材你就把它當成基本的我們會來訓練可以 明年可以部長要說"},{"start":539.352,"end":567.171,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢其實反恐跟防恐教育在警察是屬於專業警察我們有保一到保七但是對於地方警察上面這樣的勤務教育或者是加上他們對這個危機意識的提高不管是在在職訓練或者是在學校的教育訓練裡面我們會加進去不會只有單一個案讓他可以提高自己的警覺同時我也跟委員報告就是我們的警察同仁包括基層的警察同仁不怕辛苦"},{"start":569.653,"end":586.552,"text":"那這次呢有媒體上面看到基層警員上面這樣子的一個情緒上部我也是有慰問他我認為說警察的正辦就是做好我們警察的要務那有人會推崇你那也許有人也會有不同的聲音但是我們做我們應該做的事情這是警察的責任"},{"start":587.386,"end":613.794,"text":"沒有錯啦 你看我今天的質詢我從來沒有說警察 我還是替他們說話他們的辛苦 很多人不知道啦但 我們要做他最充足的後備從開始進入學校 然後到現在我們要讓我們未來的我們的警察弟兄有這些基本的常識 有這些基本的訓練那也保護他的安全 也保護全國人民的安全啦好 那請委員支持檢討的預算我最支持啦 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166559","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166559","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d1038355d99d8add57256f200d91c7a5d8c83aa44b2f8ba70a97969935296c30cbcfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:59:07 - 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部長好 署長好今天講這個事情是真的很沉重啦然後大家也都覺得發生這樣的憾事非常的難過那我希望今天我們的討論不是要檢討任何的個人因為確實這個事件發生了三小時那中間從縱火三個地方到後來去北捷丟煙霧彈再到中山站持刀攻擊人"},{"start":33.769,"end":61.763,"text":"那其實這三個小時內大家一直在討論這個時間差到底是怎麼回事那其實我知道基層員警壓力也很大包括昨天那個所長第一時間也有出來說明那看起來他真的壓力非常大那我在這邊不希望說大家檢討這件事情絕對不是因為任何一個基層員警不夠努力大家都很努力那我們今天討論的是制度上到底有沒有可以補足的環節未來不要再發生這樣的事情"},{"start":62.734,"end":90.47,"text":"那第一個我先問一下這個即時通報啦因為確實他在三個小時內連續犯案而且前面是先在林森東路再去長安東路最後又到他的租屋處縱火完之後沒想到兩個小時內跑到北車丟完煙霧彈還是沒有抓到他也第一時間讓他繼續跑然後他中間還可以回到他的旅館再換裝再拿東西再到中山站拿長刀殺人"},{"start":91.653,"end":102.309,"text":"那中間這三個小時剛剛署長你說你們第一個時間在四分鐘六分鐘就已經有警察趕到現場了但是沒有逮到他是這樣子嗎"},{"start":103.601,"end":132.143,"text":"最主要就是趕到現場的時候一定要確定身份那我們第一時間就是從這個專報裡面有提到說他中午的時候中山分局是有在17點40分就知道他的身份通緝有到派員到桃園去查捕但是這個嫌犯就持續在做案中午之後大概他到住處去中午那緊接著就是又來做北捷的中午丟煙霧彈"},{"start":133.524,"end":149.902,"text":"那北捷那個時間開始知道他犯難的時間是17點23分那我們的同仁在6分鐘就到達現場到達現場的時候是煙霧一片只知道說丟只知道是煙霧但是不知道身份那第一次確認身份就趕快去調位這些的監視器"},{"start":153.206,"end":169.594,"text":"那我們發現他現場是戴這個防毒面具的跑的時候才脫掉那透過這件事情才知道跟縱火的比對才知道確定是同一個身份我想警方到達現場是跟時間在做賽跑"},{"start":171.085,"end":190.627,"text":"時間在做賽跑就是說盡快找到嫌犯的身份確定他逃逸的方向來進行做一連串的一個通報跟追捕這三件事情他從縱火然後到丟煙霧彈再到持刀殺人請問各轄區之間的員警有任何橫向聯繫嗎"},{"start":191.448,"end":212.46,"text":"這個是有通報 那我想就這樣子 就是這個案其實我可以在這裡講 因為目前的 因為資訊我覺得要讓大家了解這個案是 他是有計劃型的隨機襲擊的事件從他的計劃書裡面 他所計劃的這一些的點跟內容是相同的"},{"start":213.493,"end":234.442,"text":"是一個他計畫中的一個隨機殺人包括北捷包括中山站都是在他的計畫裡面那這個部分我們現在當然在了解他的這個動機那初步現在的這個狀況我們在因為人已經他已經死了嘛我們現在在了解各種跡象他到底是什麼樣的一個動機"},{"start":235.723,"end":248.51,"text":"那我們從這個有一些的資料現在還在解讀當中那我們現在有解讀出來了有發現因為台北市已經有發布有發現他是一個按照計劃的一個隨機"},{"start":252.307,"end":267.294,"text":"襲擊的一個事件那看起來他常去瀏覽尤其是瀏覽政界的這個狀況所以我們也有做這樣的研判是一個模仿的一個行為在精進版的一個隨機襲擊的一個行為"},{"start":270.014,"end":289.662,"text":"好謝謝署長說明我必須要講啦因為他三個小時內用了三種不同類型的方案的型態所以很顯然各轄區之間並沒有發現說這是同一人所為然後他又跨區所以我是希望接下來指揮調度如果各轄區可以更緊急的彼此通報說很可能是同一人所為"},{"start":290.342,"end":314.839,"text":"那或許我們可以加快時間或許他還來不及進行下一次的犯案你們就可以在前面幾個小時就可以先處理掉而不會讓他整個犯案時間長達三個小時這是我要這邊拜託署長的讓第一時間第一線的員警就可以掌握情況這個非常非常重要第二個關於通訊的問題剛剛其實你也有回答說所以沒有說北捷的警察現場無線電是不通的情況"},{"start":317.341,"end":319.104,"text":"也沒有說他們因為無線電不通而造成他們沒有辦法掌握台北捷運的情況是這樣子嗎我們依據台北市的這個調查是沒有無線電不通的問題"},{"start":329.281,"end":355.343,"text":"因為在網路上盛傳啦我也希望署長在這邊明確的闢謠也好告訴大家你們無線電系統設備這方面是沒有問題的也好因為網路上都說喔其實北捷的捷運系統他們北捷在巡邏的時候無線電就很常不通了還有人說這個什麼長期失靈我不知道到底有沒有這樣的情況請署長鄭重說明我想沒有這個問題因為北捷那個捷運的警察是有到場"},{"start":356.757,"end":361.002,"text":"那無線電失靈就情侶沒辦法運作馬上就會知道了我想要在這裡做屁是沒有這個問題是每天生活的情侶的一個最重要的工具那不通平常就沒辦法執行了所以網路上的謠傳說現場無線電不通我想說這很嚴重耶這不可能"},{"start":376.997,"end":400.877,"text":"好那第三個關於警力的配置跟人力負荷的問題因為大家也在檢討說是不是北捷的警察的配置人力不足因為大家討論說北捷其實有117個站但是總共外勤的員警只有168個那如果兩個人一組然後加上輪班的執勤在這117個站的警察大概不到80個"},{"start":402.638,"end":417.843,"text":"那會不會太少這個覆蓋率夠嗎請署長說明這個部分對於這個配置以及這個勤務的一個平均力也就是說他到場的一個平均力這個部分我們會來再去做檢討跟清淨"},{"start":419.178,"end":447.361,"text":"那當然除了人力不足是一個很嚴重的問題之外當然勤務的分配也要拜託署長回去再檢討真的有太多警察都說有很多無謂的勤務啊然後很多其實導致他們在重大時間的時候沒有辦法處理重大優先的事情我希望可以回去精進這個部分讓警察可以著重在重要的業務上那最後一點我還是要幫基層的員警請命喔很多基層的警察跟我說"},{"start":448.522,"end":464.808,"text":"他們很多基本的配備都是自己買的到現在還是這樣包括說可能辣椒水啊包括警棍啊甚至有人連防彈背心都自己買那他們說要嘛是沒有發要嘛說是公發的這個品質真的太差"},{"start":465.848,"end":487.839,"text":"很常是這兩種 我想這個是這個是沒有這樣的一個狀況 我想我們就基層員警跟我講的什麼叫沒有這樣的情況 就很多人跟我說他連密錄器也自己買辣椒水也自己買 甚至好一點的警棍好一點的防彈背心可能都還要自己想辦法找到更好的 他個人的行為啦"},{"start":488.649,"end":493.271,"text":"不是個人的行為我要我希望警政署當基層員警最強的後盾你們要給他們勇氣給他們當他們的後盾最好的方式就是給他們最好用我們的武器裝備設備都一定是會最安全然後會公發發給我們通來使用"},{"start":505.797,"end":528.277,"text":"那有些比如講像你的防彈衣你那個沒有透過測試你自己去買那是不安全的那我們公發的是透過這些測試安全的這個裝備那當然有些的這個個人使用的裝備我們未來就是為因應同等的使用的一個相關的便利性來做更加的一個加強的一個這樣的一個的裝備的一個購買"},{"start":533.041,"end":537.472,"text":"好 拜托署长正视这个问题给基层远景最好的工具好 谢谢"}]}},{"id":"166558","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166558","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d1038044d574e5c3cea93f200d91c7a5d8c83aa44b2f8ba70a979c53c89e6150c5b455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:48:30 - 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是臨危現在的生活太方便 太自由 大家都不去義工是不是你如果不去做這個臨時有什麼應該要改進 應該要處理的來 署長你回答一下謝謝委員那天的佩潔那個地方發生煙霧彈跟汽油彈"},{"start":238.823,"end":254.115,"text":"那我們了解那個北極是有廣播跟警報警報有警報另外剛才說的沒什麼那是遙縮的那個無線系統是通的沒有問題"},{"start":254.795,"end":260.636,"text":"沒有問題所以說不說這個這個有些怎麼樣的報導還是什麼樣的其實要以官方的這個我們的都會去做了解那不通我們的同仁道場我的道場 師長還有一件在這個派人所在的所在裡面有幾張有錄影的時候有海棋沒辦法看到的這是團算的還是數字的"},{"start":284.625,"end":289.797,"text":"剛才吳議員問過,就是捷運公司有一座監視器是被判了"},{"start":290.598,"end":296.501,"text":"跟他派去派外顧你知不知道這可能要派外顧捷運公司去的事 但是我們第一時間在調查我說給你聽 我在基站的開我們這個監視器 大家所有的地方都說喔 我的監視器差不多大家90% 99%認真啊 地方我上車要調的時候 他去也派 他去也派啦"},{"start":317.893,"end":320.574,"text":"所以署長在這個派的當中我們要找這個派人是不是有牽扯到這個地方的時候我們要去查有一點合法嗎來 署長你回答署長 那個飛機監視器是很重要因為那個管理的單位不是那種警察的單位"},{"start":342.319,"end":345.444,"text":"因為我們已經監視器當然是我們第一時間就是要已經編制身份嘛所以我們就把外國人外圍掉了不是你們的單位要不然社會的第一是大家要共同下去處理的"},{"start":357.08,"end":372.691,"text":"沒錯啦 未來這塊可能橫向的相關的這個聯繫 要更加的加強啦 署長 我覺得說喔 大家發生的事情沒有分你我 沒有分中央 沒有分地方 是要怎樣發生的事情 趕快處理啦 不是說今天沒有我的事情 今天剔弱的事情 今天是被警察的事情 這樣"},{"start":385.083,"end":385.93,"text":"地安的海龍樓呢"},{"start":387.247,"end":393.532,"text":"我們沒有在分數沒有在分數喔沒有在分數喔你不要說我先不是 我的意思就是說把分清楚分得清楚就是說因為沒有啦 署長平常是你們就要去分人要去啦 一人分就好啦不是發生事情要來分的時候太慢了啦像這個派人煮鴨脯3點40幾分"},{"start":416.77,"end":427.633,"text":"到六點多還要做什麼事啦署長今天如果我們有聯合會做的時候我相信在陳平鄉應該不會發生這樣的事情啦所以說實在我常常說都是正常人給不正常的害死啦像做這個也這樣做這個也這樣"},{"start":445.871,"end":459.779,"text":"你看一個好人站在天堂、車廂那就是這我們要早去處理的可能會讓他不用去到產品站來發生事情因為這種的信用我們不知道我們要趕快去做的時候可能可以上海港去"},{"start":471.346,"end":483.951,"text":"很久了 署長 因為我認為事情發生不是要求什麼人 是願望後來我們現在要怎麼去開會 才會一臨啦我也是祈禱說 我們台灣可以平安可以地安好 檢控這種的剛才我們衛福部說 跟這種的人"},{"start":501.618,"end":510.628,"text":"也有很多 說實在像他很多時候都不要去看病人我們才知道醫院的問題就對了所以說社會這個問題實在有很多所以師兄 本席要跟你說"},{"start":519.978,"end":528.681,"text":"我們這年 我們的花粉 事情發生的時候我們要怎麼做 那是重點啦 沒錯因為現在已經台北發生這樣啦你們已經有三遍 開火了現在就是說 我們要先演練 不能說事情發生之後我們要來處理什麼 要處理什麼 都不會有啦"},{"start":548.493,"end":556.598,"text":"我問我們的市長 我們的部長尤其是剛才衛福部的說我們要來研議 這裡的人要怎麼去處理我認為這要趕緊去研議因為他沒有教育 跟有的出民大會也看那個怪怪 跟補也不好有時候還要叫 叫 叫這真的很難"},{"start":574.93,"end":578.713,"text":"沒中 失中這出民黨的這個人很多耶但是現在衛福部會覺得說他又沒報告 他又沒發生事情他在運動而已 沒辦法處理這也有的耶所以我覺得今天的問題就是我們要如何去防範這個問題啦沒有你看3點多發生到5點 6點那真的會被困難啦"},{"start":605.424,"end":614.33,"text":"市長 地安 民主主義的國家發生這 真是討厭 真是不知道怎麼說 英雄謝謝黃美惠"}]}},{"id":"166557","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166557","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d1038faee225426b894dcf200d91c7a5d8c83aa44b2f8ba70a979c53c89e6150c5b455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:35:17 - 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謝謝部長那針對這個114年12月19號北捷跟這個中山區南西站發生的這個隨機傷人及殺人事件那本席表示非常遺憾那也感謝現場第一線所有的警察消防人員以及建議有為的人員那也很感謝現在在很多的重要的這個場所以及重大的一些活動有增加警力增加見警率非常感謝"},{"start":40.365,"end":68.008,"text":"不過我必須要說現在民眾針對這件事情覺得台灣的安全網其實是出了問題因為這次是繼政捷終捷是第三次發生嚴重的攻擊事件那我想要先請問署長因為這個嫌犯張文他是一個通緝犯他是一個叫招不到替代的通緝犯他7月開始通緝那為什麼他可以像一般人一樣一樣生活一樣住宿"},{"start":68.669,"end":80.254,"text":"然後還是不是有就醫的紀錄那我想要請教一下難道這個現在通緝犯就跟一般人一樣生活來去自如嗎那為什麼會發生這樣的事情是不是警察太辛苦"},{"start":81.11,"end":101.591,"text":"那通緝犯也是我們查捕的對象只要一發布通緝我們是通靈全國的警察單位會去做查捕那這個也是我們警察工作任務之一我要跟署長報告一點就是說在警察在執法的時候其實他跟其他各單位是沒有做聯通的就是警察就只能接受110或是現場去圍捕逮捕"},{"start":102.111,"end":120.901,"text":"所以早次有一些通緝犯長期以來他是沒辦法不好去做追緝的所以我是請衛福部來解釋一下他當時有沒有就醫記錄他有沒有從這段時間在通緝期間有沒有就醫過報告委員根據我們那個社安網我們相關的一個記錄他並沒有這個相關的那個就醫這邊只有沒有就醫沒有"},{"start":121.161,"end":145.859,"text":"那請署長那就是說這邊還是要請各公家單位協助如果他有去辦任何有跟公家單位有關的東西我是請署長這邊未來要跟其他的相關單位大家一起協力來抓捕這些通緝犯以免造成重大的問題那第二我要想請教這位張嫻張文賢犯他民眾也很恐慌的是第一個當然我剛講的通緝犯會不會就在你身邊第二個"},{"start":146.759,"end":163.707,"text":"這個嫌犯張文他當時帶了七把刀跟一整袋的汽油彈跟煙霧彈到了我們的北捷而且身穿戰術背心那我想要請教就針對我們現在這樣子有可能攻擊民眾這種嫌犯他在捷運站"},{"start":164.947,"end":179.133,"text":"這樣子來去自如 會不會讓人民造成恐慌那有沒有什麼辨識跟攔查的方式那本席是有個小建議啊現在我們很多的監視系統是不是可以不要針對人 針對物品"},{"start":181.354,"end":202.143,"text":"做一些科技執法的一些動作那因為我們大家最近很多委員也在請教現在很多科技執法用的都是交通罰單那我們是不是說現在科技執法應該在一些重大的公共領域去針對一些有可能的嫌犯所私藏的這些這個有可能的攻擊的物品是不是有可能來做科技執法"},{"start":203.164,"end":228.619,"text":"這個部分謝謝委員的建議我覺得這個也是一個從源頭處理也就是在這個公共藝術系統比如講像高鐵捷運台鐵這一些只要進站只要是進站的這些入口是可以用AI的這個設備來對於危險物品的一個這個掀起的發現就好像我們要進入雜門你帶了裡面如果槍枝刀芥或者危險物品如果透過AI設備比較做掃描的這個設備"},{"start":230.74,"end":248.773,"text":"是第一時間是可以發現這些危險物品不會進入到這個公共的場域那你們未來要多花多久時間來去做這樣的檢討這個部分我們大概建立交通部來做這樣的一個建立好那交通部今天不在嗎交通部交通部是不是趕快時間暫停一下交通部"},{"start":253.626,"end":281.172,"text":"好交通部那當對張署長的回應您這邊有沒有什麼做法我想剛講了要用AI去辨識我想這個我們回去研議一下大概要多久時間因為進口因為他這個他那個入口的人會太多這樣的話我們考慮一下包括他進場的這個旅客對這樣的一個受的影響有沒有大概可以多久時間可以研議出來我們是不是可以給我們兩個月好嗎好可以謝謝好謝謝你謝謝"},{"start":282.771,"end":309.563,"text":"再來我在請教署長在針對這次案件裡面其實民眾其實是有打110報案但是因為現場有煙霧所以民眾緊慌民眾會驚慌所以基本上報案的期間大概都是說因為有煙霧所以不知道嫌犯其實手上有持長刀大概30公分以上的長刀利刃所以這邊也要拜託署長這邊未來就是一樣要科技執法就是說可以"},{"start":311.164,"end":329.784,"text":"立即的告訴我們前線的執行的這個同仁說現在情況到底發生什麼樣的情況讓我們執行的同仁可以知道說現場不只是有煙霧那也是有這個長刀等等的利器的這個問題那接下來我想要請問這個衛福部的部分因為全台現在目前是有三件的這個"},{"start":330.805,"end":359.248,"text":"模仿犯說可能未來就是想要模仿這個張文做相關的事情那我想請問一下不管是警政署未來衛福部會不會針對這樣的事情如何針對這些人進行追蹤非常感謝委員的一個追尋我跟委員做兩個簡單的報告過去我們的社會安全網主要的對象主要都是針對貧窮家暴兒虐身心障礙藥酒飲以及精神疾病那麼這一次他顯然是一個比較特殊的"},{"start":359.588,"end":382.203,"text":"我說特殊的一個的意思就是說他有兩個重點第一個他是他比較屬於社會孤立另外第二個他累積了長期的這一個可能挫折那當然就是相關的動機我們警政組這邊還在理清當中但是對於這些所謂非典型我們這一次部長也指示我們現在目前會來做一個整個新案的一個檢討像包括剛剛委員您剛所說的類似像這些"},{"start":383.044,"end":404.324,"text":"比較屬於所謂非典型跟高度突發性這個我們會來列入未來社安網的一個相關對象上面的一個整個審視所以用社安網繼續進行追蹤是嗎我們就是這個部分新案的部分我們現在目前在請專家包括也跟像警大陣這邊那你們大概要多久時間演繹出來我們現在目前正在做相關的檢視大概有沒有時間"},{"start":407.028,"end":431.585,"text":"我們現在那個 能不能三個月好不好 三個月時間好 謝謝 感謝委員 謝謝再請內政部部長部長 劉部長那這次的案件裡面 其實跟過去的這個犯案裡面本席覺得比較差異的是 這次不是一次攻擊他是當時在北捷攻擊完以後第二次又到南溪的這個成品附近做攻擊他這也是兩次的攻擊"},{"start":432.546,"end":458.302,"text":"那中間其實也隔了一個多小時的時間所以這邊我要想要請教部長來協助的是其實我們很多民眾在討論說是不是未來可以發這個細胞簡訊的部分因為這個嫌犯他當時是用步行的一個狀況那不管他在北車或者是在這個南西的這個狀況的時候其實民眾當時都不知道發生什麼事情可是就我們過去我們國家其實在針對一些重大災害不管是地震"},{"start":459.062,"end":476.22,"text":"颱風的時候都有發這個細胞簡訊那這個部分是不是可以請部長講一下說未來是不是有機會遇到這種重大的攻擊事件的時候有沒有怎麼樣的狀況可以來發細胞簡訊報告委員 按照目前的機制的話呢地方政府呢 他們所發的細胞簡訊以疏散撤離為主"},{"start":477.461,"end":489.154,"text":"那如果蘇贊撤離的時候呢必須要有相對的參數所謂的相對參數譬如說有颱風警報或者有地震警報或者大雨警報或者是相關的這些科學性的數據我們才能知道說他細胞簡訊要發給誰有多大的範圍"},{"start":492.598,"end":520.363,"text":"就像北捷他可以發就是周邊用電訊的話發大概幾公里但是不曉得嫌犯現在跑到哪裡去也就是說他整個範圍是以台北車站為主還有跑到中山站或是跑到中山站上面的南西那你整個發下去的話第一個會不會引起其他的不必要的恐慌因為大家不曉得發生什麼事那如果你能夠確定CBS所發的簡訊非常清楚是發生什麼事情的話我相信民眾收到這樣的簡訊當然可以達到疏散撤離的效果"},{"start":520.843,"end":539.301,"text":"但是如果你的相對參數沒有那麼明確的話反而會造成其他更多的疑問但是我剛有提到這個相對的這個程序是有的如果市政府覺得有這個需求那跟行政院的這個災防辦來提出這樣的要求那他們會做比較好的評估所以這個發細胞簡訊的主管機關是誰"},{"start":540.632,"end":563.13,"text":"就行政院的災防辦對啊 因為蔣萬事長其實也有特別有提到最近有提到說未來不排除發氣包檢訊提供民眾但是我剛剛跟委員報告過程序不是問題而是你在啟動或作動的時候是由誰來發動這個才是需要參考很多不同國家的狀況所以台北市政府沒辦法自己發動一定要到行政院來去做沒有沒有 不是"},{"start":563.59,"end":590.196,"text":"不是發動的話當然地方政府可以發動就是他如果程序完成沒有問題我是說要發動是由誰來發動是什麼事情你要提出來譬如說我們像這次馬太安溪他要發動的時候是由農業部因為他主管的是跟這個土石流跟大規模的這個崩塌有關那這個是指什麼事情要能夠明確的定義清楚如果你明確定義不清楚沒有辦法界定範圍的話引起不必要的猜測跟恐慌更何況人潮洶湧來來去去人不一樣"},{"start":592.817,"end":597.938,"text":"就好像譬如說地震四級的時候四級地震的範圍有多大那這樣國科會就知道四級地震大概涵蓋的範圍是多大那你這次的範圍你不曉得嫌犯到哪裡去啊你也不曉得他最後在哪裡 發生什麼事我們是希望時間要求快但是在處理的過程當中可能要做審慎的營業"},{"start":612.322,"end":635.348,"text":"那最後還是要跟這個最後兩個問題第一個就是說其實現在社會常常動盪不安警察同仁非常忙碌所以當時為什麼我們在立法院在今年1月7號三讀通過要警察人事條例第35條修正幫警察跟消防人員的所得替代率上升到80%重點就是要保障高風險的警消人員的一些福利"},{"start":635.928,"end":654.604,"text":"那行政院現在沒有編列預算本席還是要這邊呼籲行政院要依法行政編組預算給警消應有的尊嚴跟保障那最後剛剛蘇喬業委員也特別請教劉部長關於這本這個全民安全指引這個小局書這個部分剛剛署長部長也特別提到說這裡面有關於這個"},{"start":657.046,"end":683.818,"text":"類似這個國內的這種商人跟恐怖攻擊類似恐怖攻擊的事件其實這本書裡面是沒有太強調裡面的這個內容所以本席還是要拜託部長這個要加強內容那最後這邊我要跟你們報告這個是基層的反應就是基層的公務人員他會發現他回到這個辦公室發現裡面有一整疊的這個小局書放在機關裡面然後還特別這個"},{"start":686.04,"end":710.302,"text":"這個請這個基層公務單位說請帶回家保管切勿丟棄在垃圾桶裡面這意思就是說什麼咧就是我要必須講這個當時不是說這個家戶一人一本嗎那為什麼現在就要全部一整疊放在機關裡面所以最後這個我還是要我們要去看一下鄉鎮市公所是不是沒有負責任把它放到家戶裡面這個是放在機關裡面的啦這是放在機關裡面然後要他們"},{"start":712.369,"end":739.896,"text":"沒有發放到機關所以我還是要請這個部長去了解這個就是說明明就已經拜託林里長就是挨家挨戶的放在這個家戶裡面請告訴我們在哪個縣市我們馬上來追查這個是人家這個陳情的啦就是希望說這個是不是當時是印太多我們還是呼籲一下鄉鎮公所的村里長他就是在公務機關裡面在公務機關裡面就放一整疊在公務機關裡面要這些公務人員去拿"},{"start":740.956,"end":765.757,"text":"他們說人家一人去拿一本那也要求他們說不要丟在廁所那顯然危機意識不夠我們希望還是村裡幹事能夠盡力的去發放而且我們有一套機制好 謝謝部長所以最後還是要拜託部長就是說這個小局書裡面小局書裡面的內容所以還是要增進那第二個還是要向公務人員尤其辛苦的警察消防人員的待遇我們還是要一起來加油 謝謝"},{"start":766.878,"end":782.977,"text":"尤其是現職的警消人員希望委員能夠多多支持您剛講的是退休警員跟這個不太有正相關這個不管退休跟現役我們都要幫忙那委員如果支持小局書我們明年會再出新版好 加油謝謝張志倫委員的發言接下來我們請王美惠"}]}},{"id":"166564","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166564","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d1038f7251c824cd915d5f200d91c7a5d8c83aa44b2f8ba70a979f6c8e88a0e872c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:48:29 - 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最後一個問題本席要跟你談就是說這次事件發生的地點是在捷運系統那為了確保民眾能夠安心安全交通部這次也必須要協同其他的部會我們針對整個大眾運輸系統這個規劃相關的這個防範措施特別是針對我們台庭那今年也發生多起暴力事件"},{"start":315.618,"end":336.948,"text":"可是我們台鐵目前的鐵路警察就減少6%那使得這個乘務人員的他的負擔安全的維護的這個壓力更重那關於這一點我想要請教我們交通部有沒有什麼因應的作為我想剛提到的話在台鐵部分他確實因為他目前主要負責的警力是鐵路警察局"},{"start":337.622,"end":362.433,"text":"那這部分因為他人力也不是那麼夠但是這部分我們其實有做一些包括我們的保全我們的員工另外我們針對幾個車站的部分有些可能是跟當地沒有所謂的陸警所的部分我們跟當地的地方派出所或警察局有做這樣一個聯防的機制這項我們會來持續來加強好感謝市長的回答現在本社的問題"},{"start":364.548,"end":378.273,"text":"市長其實東部地區的鐵路啊佔領跟佔領之間的距離都很長行車時間也很久是但是說真的沒有設計板他就發生這樣的衝突的事件等到外圍警察趕到現場的時候恐怕都來不及"},{"start":379.193,"end":398.569,"text":"那我想車廂上的這個人員絕對要有足夠的應變能力那本席有注意到新聞就是說高鐵的這個座椅可以拆下來當作盾牌來使用那我想要請教次長就是對於針對我們台鐵的這個車廂的治安的維護那尤其是針對這種長距離的這種路線有沒有相關因應的應變作為"},{"start":400.51,"end":416.828,"text":"我想我們也可以來做一下演繹剛講因為他的台鐵路線車班相當的多那這部分我們會針對比較風險比較高的路段來做一些比如說有一些防備的一些措施或是設備我們來進行補強"},{"start":417.809,"end":436.16,"text":"市長你看像我們的東部幹線每個站點都這麼距離都這麼遠然後中途甚至經過地方他其實並沒有什麼人是那這樣真的發生問題的時候這個要先想好要不然那真的都不會有啦後來都會發生啊所以我要叫代理公司一部我們來做一下研議看怎麼來補強這一塊"},{"start":438.529,"end":453.504,"text":"市長這個因為我想大家印象還有深刻之前南緯高軌案發生的地點仿山那地方真的荒污人煙那高危群真的都被處理了那我想這個絕對不是危言聳聽像這一次的這個恐攻的這個攻擊事件"},{"start":454.545,"end":474.552,"text":"真的沒有人想到會發生這種事情所以我們相關部門真的要防範於未來我們建物給一份的輸客我們變成給一份安全本市最後一個提出一些具體的建議就是說我想請內政部 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謝委員 我想任何的這個案件能夠第一時間去做這個處置防止那我剛也都提過就是說有發現狀況有報案 報案要快我們的同仁到場要快 處置要快那能夠防止這些這個狀況往外去做一個更不可預控的情形"},{"start":191.644,"end":213.045,"text":"那為所提的就是這個煙霧彈的這個狀況我們目前初步了解他是從網路上過的就是網路過的那至於這個煙霧彈目前不是管制物品不是管制物品那未來我們可能也會做來研究是不是在從源頭來做管理比如講像登記制什麼這類這個我們來做研究"},{"start":215.814,"end":242.501,"text":"很好因為我們希望是說有什麼措施什麼就是制度還有就是要管制不管是地方還是網路所以呢因為雖然是目前已經提高就是說決應站的見景率加強我們巡查但依照目前調查"},{"start":243.462,"end":265.477,"text":"就是犯嫌以刻意模仿2014年的北捷隨機殺人案要請教我們的署長 第一對於這類具高度模仿的風險也可依側行為模式的重大公共安全的案件警政署是否張"},{"start":268.471,"end":283.382,"text":"重疊的特徵 納入常態性例行性的警務風險評估還有就是刑防的制度 第二如何避免社會警惕逐漸下降後讓模範案就是"},{"start":287.885,"end":301.51,"text":"有可趁之機找空窗期第三圖了提高建警力警政署是否已經有跨捷運警政社會安全網的長期長期的預設防範策略而不是就是現在發生短期的加強"},{"start":314.518,"end":329.398,"text":"有沒有委員那我想對於這個這個案件我們現在初步看起來是有模仿這個政協的這個狀況那這些都是我們"},{"start":330.739,"end":344.27,"text":"對員警訓練的一個就是未來執勤的一個教育的方式不管在訓練裝備或演練我們會朝這樣方面來做制度上的一個精進"},{"start":345.219,"end":367.095,"text":"那第二個部分就是說 發生案件之後 我們也希望我們的國人不要去做模仿我們這段期間也有發現 大概有 到目前為止有22件的在網路上的這個 有這樣的一個狀況那我們對這樣的一個行為 我一定要 就是要跟全國人民 這個是犯法的"},{"start":367.635,"end":392.654,"text":"所以我們現在目前只要是國內的現在目前到目前已經超過三個來移送來移送這個來移送偵辦這個是會影響我們的社會民心那我們也呼籲我們國人不要去以身試法也不要把它當作一個嬉戲如果說當作嬉戲但是你這個狀況也是也是是違法的那第三個部分就是說"},{"start":394.262,"end":421.438,"text":"這個案件我們當然去會檢討整體那這個整體的狀況當然還有一些治本的一個狀況比如我剛剛所提的這社會安全網那就是要從根本要跟其他我們會結合其他相關部會來一起來解決我們這個類似這些高風險的這些反社會人格的這種狀況來及早的做應驗跟預防或者是去做處置那我們檢方這個區塊是"},{"start":424.38,"end":431.513,"text":"案件發生之後我們去做處置那源頭的部分我們會結合其他相關部會來一起努力"},{"start":433.266,"end":454.171,"text":"好 謝謝因為要用多一點時間讓我們的署長去回應我們希望今天聽到的就是可以有可持續可複製制度化的防範方案這樣的話讓人民更安心所以才讓你多講一點時間 不好意思再請我們的衛福部的次長再給我一點時間"},{"start":466.598,"end":486.443,"text":"委員好市長好我們都認同基本的警察真的很辛苦所以政府更加強做到的就是預防剩餘治療社會安全網的計畫從民國107年的推動現在已經升級到"},{"start":487.103,"end":489.826,"text":"2.0了但是發生這樣子的BG仍然發生所以非常遺憾的也高度的關注所以呢我們這名嫌犯過去是否曾被納入社會安全網的列管和關懷的對象"},{"start":507.77,"end":528.084,"text":"非常感謝委員的一個垂詢我剛剛也向委員報告本案並不是屬於社安網的過去通報的機制我跟委員報告他並沒有典型的通報的指標他也沒有之前任何求助的紀錄"},{"start":529.025,"end":549.726,"text":"那這裡面我們也我覺得剛剛署長剛剛也有說在源頭的部分我們社安網這邊會來進行相關的一個檢討這裡面包括就是說官方委員也知道我們的社安網的過去主要事實上是針對幾個對象典型的世界各國的社安網包括貧窮"},{"start":551.007,"end":579.804,"text":"家庭暴力兒虐身心障礙藥酒飲還有精神疾病這個我並然後我們在現在社安網裡面我們現在又擴充兩類第一個是獨居老人第二個是就是這一個比較可能高風險的一個家庭這裡面他的現行的這個通報機制譬如說我們剛剛說的就是說可能社會孤立等等這些部分我們會來本部會來加強這方面的一個演繹"},{"start":580.424,"end":600.06,"text":"好好謝謝我們市長如果沒有就是我們是都沒有被列入所以因為這個原因就是導致也落掉他了所以呢我們希望的如何去加強改進還有相關單位的通報還有追蹤介入機制還有我們就是要確實的"},{"start":603.303,"end":606.907,"text":"啟動 避免再有更多的落網之魚 這個是我們我們想要知道的 因為時間的關係 最後就是我要強調的說"},{"start":613.784,"end":642.927,"text":"對於突發這個案件後政府與社會第一要件就只有一個就是及時止血還有就是阻止傷亡的擴大迅速依法集中還有任何資訊的傳播都應以協助緊立方案穩定社會秩序的為前提而不是就是未經查證"},{"start":643.507,"end":645.742,"text":"採測"},{"start":646.297,"end":652.342,"text":"捕風抓影還有貼標籤的還有這些錯誤的信息不只無助我們的破案反而製造恐慌甚至煽動族群的仇恨傷害無辜對於網路上的一些扭曲為第五縱隊還有散播方案的身份遙遠甚至在社群平台揚言發動"},{"start":675.441,"end":676.762,"text":"恐攻的行為還有人還有謠言傳說犯人是陸配的新二代我們真的很肯定相關部會在第一個時間我們陸委會出面澄清"},{"start":694.119,"end":713.686,"text":"也譴責有心人士藉不心這個事件激發對立更重要的是制度面必須要補破網因此本席要求警政署與衛福部針對警力的協調危機的處理社會安全網的高度風險個案的通報機制在一週內是不是可以提出"},{"start":724.769,"end":742.074,"text":"檢討還有改善的計畫報告我也要提醒警力有限我們的名利無從社會安全網不是靠仇恨堆壘而是靠理性守法與彼此信任共同完成拒絕謠言停止"},{"start":747.008,"end":755.835,"text":"造謠也停止要應用這樣子的話就是要真的有很多網路我覺得網路不只是造謠不只是分類還有很多讓我們覺得說這個網路的生態真的是無法無天也要社會大眾支持大家千萬別"},{"start":768.624,"end":789.342,"text":"就是被這樣不實的誤打全民有義務責任共同維護社會和諧避免紮身社會分化這也是我們守護台灣最基本最重要的一道防線 謝謝大家謝謝 麥玉珍委員接下來請黃建斌召委"}]}},{"id":"166566","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166566","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d10381fcff4215c8c61c4f200d91c7a5d8c83aa44b2f8ba70a9796e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:07:18 - 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市長 午安這個大家都很擔心啦因為今天稍早又收到了相關的訊息嘛說什麼北捷又有炸彈等等這部分有掌握嗎有 都有掌握好 借這個事情喔其實從不同的面向討論一下啦這個其實也是一個"},{"start":29.389,"end":57.432,"text":"倒不純然是因為這一件事情這個也是大家一直都有在討論的一件事情也就是說我們的台北車站當然山鐵共購也是全台灣最大的一個交通節點那麼動線其實是非常非常複雜那我們其實都很清楚嘛就是說遇到這樣子隨機攻擊或者是甚至未來有可能很危險等等恐怖攻擊的一個情況如果能夠有效的來做緊急應變大概兩件事情啦一個叫做快速而精準的通報第二個叫做流暢"},{"start":58.453,"end":64.336,"text":"的疏散我想這是很重要的那當然通報的部分當然是景深系統來負責但疏散的動線我想說我們應該也花一點點時間來討論一下部長這個"},{"start":68.988,"end":95.909,"text":"台北車站跟迷宮一樣這件事情即便在這之前也有很多人有相關的抱怨也好或者是疑慮也好 擔憂也好這裡面部分不管是跟台鐵公司也好或是跟台北市政府也好有沒有做過一些考慮過思考也就是說我們怎麼樣讓這個動線可以更清楚讓大家在裡面不要迷路然後以提升相關應變的一些效能OK 我想跟委員報告剛確實剛講因為這裡面就是有交通運輸幾乎所有的轉乘都在這裡"},{"start":97.45,"end":124.152,"text":"捷運的好幾個縣都在紅線 藍線 地下街確實它真的是 還有桃姐確實它真的是變得非常非常的複雜那後面有一些一直增加進來的我想這部分我們會請台鐵公司再跟相關單位再來檢視一下這些的動線有沒有可以讓它更明顯或是更單純化我想這是我們後面我再請台鐵公司來進行優化"},{"start":125.343,"end":147.899,"text":"這個既然大家 因為今天很多部會都一起來報告啦我希望這個交通部也不要置身事外這一部分有沒有一些比較明確的時間表還有你們現在規劃的一些方向我們現在大概明年明年我想就針對台北站的部分我們先來做一些 看怎麼樣來做一些指標系統的一個改善這個"},{"start":150.191,"end":173.165,"text":"像類似這樣子的一個方式 這個當然是純粹從交通的角度啦比如說台鐵往哪裡走 然後用設塊的方式 設帶的方式來做引導這其實就一種方式嘛 或者是說 現在台北車站就我的了解啦一樓大概都有所謂的會面點嘛 但那會面點大概其他地方就不是那麼的密集嘛可能地下街啊 樓層 各個地方可能沒有那是不是也可以做比照來做一下設計"},{"start":174.125,"end":196.748,"text":"那我覺得我今天把這個照片弄出來這是純交通的動線但未來也許因應各式各樣的狀況災害也好 攻擊事件也好疏散的動線其實我覺得可以比照這樣的方式來做處理對 可以 我想這個我了解這應該是在板橋站的部分啦那剛講有相關單位包括高鐵這些我想我還是因為主要當然主體我這邊會請那個台鐵公司"},{"start":197.889,"end":218.05,"text":"來進行這樣的一個優化那剛剛台立公司他是總經理是有跟我講他現在大概會準備找我是不是請他來可以啊可以啊 請他說明一下都好啊委員好 有關於台北站的指標我們現在目前已經有委託台灣設計研究院把我們的所有的指標做一系列的綠定"},{"start":218.951,"end":242.994,"text":"那明年就會提出我們的指標設計研究院把它做得很漂亮本席百分之百贊成但關鍵是功能性嘛這個還是功能性還是要你們專業的人來做引導我們剛開始在做設計的時候都有邀請相關單位來從功能性的角度切入那明年我們會針對台北站還有板橋站我們把指標系統做一個整體的優化疏散動線還有更多的會面點"},{"start":243.875,"end":266.828,"text":"你要讓這個也不只是災害的時候用嘛你多幾個會面點對於台鐵的品質來講也是個幫助啦好不好剛委員提到我覺得那是一個重點剛講不是只是漂漂亮亮的功能性很重要所以未來在做的時候我們會找相關單位剛講了幾個因應單位我想都會帶來一些建議拿進去明年嘛好不好相關資料要讓大家了解共同精進相關的措施好交通部請回 警政署長有請請署長"},{"start":272.749,"end":277.135,"text":"委員長組長辛苦這個現在我們釐清這個犯案人的動機了沒啊"},{"start":278.14,"end":303.153,"text":"目前還在持續 因為他人已經死了嘛所以在從各種跡象各種的查過的這個證物以及相關的人員現在多面向要全面深入的去做了解我想要以後要更精準希望給我們一點時間這當然要給你們一點時間因為案發之後有很多不管是特殊的學者也好網路的意見啊或者是特定的媒體"},{"start":304.033,"end":312.079,"text":"都在大做一些有的沒的消息比如說這個兇手是陸配之子啦這個可能是內部滲透啦這個可能是第五縱隊啊這些詞都出來了那請問警方在第一時間你要核實這樣的消息嗎"},{"start":317.645,"end":342.051,"text":"我們沒有 這個案件是一個重大案件所以我們這個相關的一個調查都是會在第一時間跟國人時間暫停一下那個現場來跟各位報告一下那個現場還在打訊希望各位在討論的時候聲音能夠降低謝謝主席時間可以繼續這個"},{"start":344.625,"end":357.228,"text":"我的意思是說你剛都講你要很清楚做完整的調查之後才做一次的公佈嘛對不對那中間出現很多這樣的雜訊跟干擾的時候警政署有沒有第一時間出來嚴正博士啊會 一定會第一時間會來做一個澄清比如講像類似我們從案件開始"},{"start":364.71,"end":385.986,"text":"我們發布多次的記者會或者是新聞稿都隨時會發就是讓國人了解這個罪行因為這是國人非常關注的一個重大社會事件對 重大社會事件組長 這些相關的謠言也好 奇怪的消息對於穩定社會治安 協助辦案或者是平復社會的焦慮情緒是有幫助的嗎是有幫助 曾經是有幫助"},{"start":391.81,"end":415.468,"text":"曾經是有幫助 那尤其就是預測有沒有幫助啊預測 你那個預測也是對這個案子是沒有幫助預測沒有幫助 曾經才有幫助的對不對真實的曾經才是有幫助的那你署長有沒有打算追究一下一天到晚預測的這群人的社會責任這樣就是像網路上的這一些如果有牽涉到可能恐嚇維安的這一些我們都會依法依法依法依法依法依法依法依法依法依法"},{"start":419.491,"end":447.924,"text":"我現在講的是這些針對這樣的事情然後意圖也許是政治操作也許是造謠也許是煽動恐慌警區的這些人我想這些應該都是不必要的啦這些都不必要嘛這我希望警方該追究的時候也要依法來做追究啊因為我跟署長講一個很現實的狀況也就是我剛剛問你警政署針對這件事情的時候有沒有第一時間出來做澄清說沒有這些事情按照調查程序有對不對但是署長你覺得在新聞的露出跟大家資訊的接受上大家有接受到警政署的澄清的訊息嗎"},{"start":448.404,"end":458.763,"text":"那未來這個部分我們可能會再加強對媒體這樣的一個溝通跟做說明讓民眾能夠更清楚整個我們的一個正確的訊息"},{"start":460.236,"end":484.619,"text":"第一個你應該要加大澄清的力度讓辦案的案情的這個訊息的統一發布的主導你當然要回到警政署手上我們要尊重警察的專業嘛也要尊重警方的辦案的節奏嘛不要讓這些雜訊去做干擾啦那一個是加大相關澄清的力度第二個就是針對這些有意要造謠或者是有意要渲染的這些人你該記鐵腕手段的時候要不要記出鐵腕手段我們該依法或依法來處理"},{"start":485.82,"end":501.256,"text":"這個公權力要對重大私安設計負起責任尤其要對相關的謠言我也希望可以負起責任因為這個恐怕嚴重影響公共利益不太在我認為是不太在言論自由的保障範圍之內那這每次都有心人士在這個地方"},{"start":502.413,"end":526.448,"text":"這捕風捉影或者是意圖影射或者是試圖做政治操作我覺得這只會讓我們的社會更加混亂讓這件事情始終沒有辦法收尾也影響大家針對案情本身不管是危安疏散我們剛討論的項目以下它造成很多很多的負面影響雖然這起事件的兇手已經死亡但造成社會治安法治的信心民眾心理的持續的破壞的這些造謠的人都還逍遙法外"},{"start":527.469,"end":553.068,"text":"我擔心行政權的選擇性沉默或拒絕積極作為會讓公共安全難以復原所以務必請警政署這邊第一強化警政署才是辦案的主導者相關的訊息你要強烈的而且更大的聲音來做澄清第二你當然要針對這些造謠捕風捉影什麼第五縱隊什麼陸配之子這些東西該究責你也要究責這樣才能最快讓社會穩定下來可以嗎可以我們依法處理好謝謝署長辛苦了"},{"start":556.588,"end":564.953,"text":"好 謝謝劉徐庭委員的發言那接下來我們先來處理臨時提案那臨時提案共有兩案請宣讀依據我國包養條例規定堂冒險犯難中真不拔撞獵成人者得依法包養並得入室國民革命中獵詞或地方中獵詞"}]}},{"id":"166565","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166565","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d1038f377f86cc08ec9fff200d91c7a5d8c83aa44b2f8ba70a9796e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:56:28 - 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本席有請劉部長 張署長劉部長 張署長好"},{"start":12.078,"end":32.514,"text":"我想部長署長在公共場域發生這種暴力事件在台灣陸陸續續我們都看到所以上個禮拜五我們都很痛心所以今天本席不跟你們談政治攻防也不想聽什麼社會任性的口號"},{"start":33.695,"end":57.109,"text":"本席要來請教我們對於整個的制度我們對於辨識風險早期辨識早期合法介入我們有沒有足夠好的制度只有安全的制度民眾才能安全的活著否則民眾只能靠運氣所以本席首先問現在我們在公共場域"},{"start":58.823,"end":64.579,"text":"有關這個暴力突發事件我們有沒有全國一致的SOP"},{"start":66.345,"end":88.719,"text":"現在有沒有訂定這個全國有沒有共識我為什麼要這樣問馬上就是聖誕晚會的這種高峰期接著各縣市的跨年活動所以在這種公共場域發生這種暴力攻擊我們整個的相關單位有沒有全國一致性的SOP"},{"start":91.738,"end":113.498,"text":"那這個部分就是對於這個公共場域那公共場域有很多單位的一個當然包含運輸這次發生的運輸或者是其他的人多聚集的這個我們對於類似這個重大仁安是有一個演練跟SOP的所以對於比如講像有全國移植的標準嗎"},{"start":116.741,"end":130.326,"text":"像這個東西 比如像北捷啦像廣播疏散 那我們的這個組織的這個行為 這個是我們對重大展覽市有做這樣的一個那我請教 有沒有訂定黃金抵達時間通報後幾分鐘要到 誰該到"},{"start":135.373,"end":163.226,"text":"那這個部分就是快打的一個部隊是我們是有一些這個一個要求那比如講什麼要求啊我就問黃金抵達時間是多久可能在10分鐘以內去做抵達比如講像警力的一個一個整備比如講像類似這一種的到達的時間攜帶裝備各方面的一個狀況那未來我覺得就是說這個就是因為我們這個案子我們應該是要再去做後來的"},{"start":163.786,"end":186.598,"text":"未來的經濟那我剛才提到過的包含你剛有講嘛10分鐘嘛那這個時間在不同的情況能不能縮短再來現場處置的SOP你從壓制到疏散到封控到醫療後送等等有沒有全國一致的標準我提一個架構就是說我剛才提的任何的狀況"},{"start":187.859,"end":212.056,"text":"我們第一個時間 剛才提的一定是報案要快就是第一時間的訊息報案要快 本來是我第二題 我順便問你等到報案太慢了所以我們全國部長我們全國有沒有一件事的警報就是緊急按鈕的設置沒有 我們沒有這種剩餘警員的巡邏報案民眾第一個時間最迅速就是110"},{"start":214.135,"end":231.528,"text":"110的報案就是我們秦始中心就是會把當時的狀況但是發生事情的時候如果有緊急按鈕那會更快速我們看那個影片很多人都還搞不清楚這個到底是有人在放煙火還是還是發生了什麼事大家觀望很久最後才發現"},{"start":232.925,"end":254.134,"text":"那個緊急按鈕可能也不見得是會去解決問題其實我們的這個受理的110是速度是最快的我覺得你不能說緊急按鈕在一些公共場域可以設置的當然在戶外可能很難但在公共場域這一個部分部長我覺得這個可能部長這個一定要建制"},{"start":254.594,"end":277.214,"text":"那個委員如果說是緊張就是可能各目的社會主管機關的一個機制那我現在提的這是全國式的就是民眾的發現第一時間就是八萬塊第二個就是剛剛委員所提的到場的速度要快再來第三個部分就是處置要快處置對所以我一直問處置的SOP你回答我一下處置的SOP全國有一致嗎"},{"start":278.475,"end":296.634,"text":"有訓練過嗎這個本來就是經常在做訓練不是說沒訓練演練頻率是多少 你跟我講有沒有誰驗收 驗收不合格又如何判定那我們就是會 則有各地方縣市警察局來處理部長 署長 這一塊真的要加強"},{"start":297.535,"end":312.192,"text":"因為現在社會的變化所以我們也很這個大家都不希望看到這種事件警察的辛苦我們也知道所以我接著接著我也要詢問就是說我們這個警察因為面臨這個社會的"},{"start":314.755,"end":329.314,"text":"這個變異啊我們有關快打或者受這種反恐訓練聽起來是很棒但是我們希望不要再用基層警察的停修和加班換取一時的政治的表演所以我們也要請"},{"start":330.415,"end":346.944,"text":"這個署長你在會後因為我今天的時間有限我們快打部隊的人力規劃是多少缺額又是多少我們訓練的時數夠不夠演練的頻率是多少裝備更新了沒有還有預算從哪裡來所以"},{"start":349.131,"end":366.658,"text":"署長今天回答也許讓我們大家很滿意可是這個背後的執行面還有包含我們不能壓榨我們基層的警力我們希望這個是真的有充足的經費充足的人力署長這樣可以嗎也謝謝委員支持警察的預算跟經費謝謝"},{"start":368.679,"end":381.552,"text":"你要先回答我 我剛說的你會後一定要回覆我可以嗎 沒問題那接著請兩位先回座 本席接下來要問衛福部好不好 衛福部的代表我看一下好 次長 呂次長請呂次長次長 我們"},{"start":392.196,"end":408.294,"text":"一樣針對衛福部這邊我們不希望制度是等到自傷傷人的事件出現了發生了公權利才介入所以有關制度漏接的孤立者請問衛福部有沒有相關的機制"},{"start":409.795,"end":437.471,"text":"報告 報告委員 我想我們本次事件確實暴露了我們現在就是說 有一類是屬於我們剛剛說的高度突發性 但是非典型這類他有兩個特性 第一個你不用解釋這個 我們的制度我們現在衛福部這裡 針對有一些可能應該家人或鄰里已經察覺他不對勁在他還沒有拿刀砍人之前 我們政府所能做的最早期介入"},{"start":438.411,"end":461.396,"text":"你們有沒有這樣的一個怎麼樣的方式是 幫忙委員 我現在先說嘛 我們現在傳統我們現在主要大概是針對像貧窮家暴還有像要酒飲等等這類那像剛剛委員 剛剛你所說的這類我剛剛我也在回覆另外一位委員的時候 我們也說到就是說這個所謂非典型的部分 我們現在目前在三個月之內"},{"start":463.116,"end":492.063,"text":"邀集相關的一些專家學者來進行相關的一個整個這個部分的一個整個對象但是我要跟委員報告我們必須要把事件背後的風險因子我們現在必須要把它先先釐清沒關係 這些細節你們該釐清的釐清但是我們希望這個也還是一樣社會一直在變化所以現在變成生理生病的人他可能不會傷人但心理生病的人他可能造成很多其他人的傷亡"},{"start":492.603,"end":517.613,"text":"所以這一塊是新的課題 我們認同也請衛福部一定要重視 可以嗎那最後我想請部長也一起來 還有衛福部我們針對這個是不是有一個主責的責任鏈也就是說有關社福醫療警政各自掌握零碎的訊號我們整體的整合有沒有這種責任鏈"},{"start":519.181,"end":546.649,"text":"是 包委員 我們其實我們社安網裡面其實事實上就是整合了五個部會誰主責 現在到底哪一個部會會主責社安網的部分是由衛福部來主責 這沒錯那我跟委員報告 但是現在問題就是說剛剛我們過去的一個部分傳統的典型的主要是 我再重複一次貧窮 家暴 兒虐 身心障礙 藥酒飲以及精神疾病但是現在目前我們陳副委員剛剛所說我們現在面對的可能是一個新興的"},{"start":548.45,"end":552.353,"text":"包風險個案的整合機制是衛福部來主責是嗎沒有人可以回答我們現在就是到底整個行政院各部會誰來主責呢包委我們現在目前就是我們現在目前有一個我們的從2018年開始有一個整個社安網的"},{"start":570.305,"end":590.507,"text":"那我們會用一個一組折多協力的一個方式對一組折那誰是一組折那我們現在目前要看那個整個不同的一個他的一個事件發生以後看是誰不是不是我們現在目前當然就是說有一些criteria我們要看那個整個主要問題看他在哪邊那我們就會有一個整個這個水平的一個整個協調機制"},{"start":592.153,"end":614.582,"text":"好那最後我佔用一點時間最後一題我想我們針對被害人的資源是不是可以一路走到終點做得到嗎包含被害人的保護他的法律輔助心理支持等等是不是能夠一路陪伴到審查終結進行包含整個的過程的關懷"},{"start":615.662,"end":631.836,"text":"這個部分我們政府有沒有人可以針對這些受害人我們現在目前就是有整個法務部那邊有一個範保的機制有嘛 沒錯OK 我們大家一起努力好 謝謝感謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166556","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166556","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d1038d16e6898705753edf200d91c7a5d8c83aa44b2f8ba70a979b67a135d127549fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:25:03 - 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謝謝主席 我們請內政部劉思芳部長當然還有警政署張署長請劉部長 張署長部長好 署長好 委員好"},{"start":15.424,"end":38.525,"text":"我想上個週五台北市發生了這樣這個捷運的隨機襲擊事件造成了許多民眾的傷亡那我們除了聲表哀悼之外其實也要對第一線的警察同仁真的表示辛苦了因為不只是當天出動了這麼多的警力甚至第二天在台北市我們以"},{"start":40.086,"end":61.585,"text":"這個馬拉松來看台北市馬拉松來看的話其實更是加派了雙倍的警力所以我想這一段接下來的這段時間還有很多大型活動全國的警察同仁真的要謝謝大家的努力那也辛苦了但我們就這些問題我們也還是來繼續進行討論署長先對您表示辛苦了"},{"start":63.188,"end":86.821,"text":"好那接下來討論的問題當中我想藉著這個質詢的過程把這兩天當中其實民間對警察處置方向最大的疑問的幾個部分特別提出來並且也請署長做說明其實民間有三大問題第一個就是這整個事件當中警察的反應速度是否不夠快"},{"start":87.822,"end":107.332,"text":"到場的時間是否不夠早這是第一個尤其是他已經是有多起連續的狀態甚至往前推除了在這個捷運站襲人襲擊民眾之外往前還有縱火甚至是到住家的部分也都有這樣連續幾個部分為什麼警察都沒有發現所以第一個是到場的時間"},{"start":108.613,"end":123.744,"text":"第二個是從新聞的影片來看這個警察的部分他到了成品裡面到百貨公司裡面的時候被拍到的影像似乎只有警棍所以是否警察的裝備不足這是平常的訓練不夠嗎還是一向都這樣這是民眾的第二個問題第三個問題的話當然就是那我們在追蹤的狀況是不是連監視器都有問題"},{"start":132.631,"end":158.139,"text":"所以你沒有辦法追蹤到這三個問題我想是坊間現在大家最想知道的狀況所以是不是請署長這邊可以簡單做回答好謝謝委員那發生這個案件我們警察一定是會盡力去做維護民眾安全那第一個問題就是在發生有兩個處罰一個就是北捷北捷這部分是嫌犯在17點23分投擲這煙霧彈我們的警方在6分鐘就到場"},{"start":162.62,"end":176.852,"text":"那第二部分就是他犯案之後陶藝再繼續犯案那在這個嫌犯在到達這個中山這個成餅的這個狀況警方是在兩分鐘就到場這個時間的部分我想這個所有這個案件一定是要達到民眾要協助做報案快我們警力這個到場快以及要處置快這個原則"},{"start":190.203,"end":218.3,"text":"那第二部分就是說裝備的這個部分也就是說在嫌犯進入到城堡裡面我們的警力當時就是在路口有一個交通崗那交通崗的情侶本來就是沒有配槍那另外就是這個交通崗通報這個資源的時候就利益資源所以是最早最快的那一組你看就是那個中山的那個所長也出來講"},{"start":219.321,"end":248.712,"text":"有些同仁要下班了但是他為了急迫就趕去我覺得就是說未來像類似這種裝備還是要領但是但是這裡面追進去裡面有八個人有八個人但是就是有交通港跟要下班的同仁那為了要第一時間去我覺得這個是未來可以做精進但是那裡面還是有巡邏勤務快達快達進去了那當然是有帶槍支的也有沒有帶槍支這個部分我覺得未來還是有這個精進的空間但是"},{"start":249.312,"end":266.457,"text":"警察的天職你看看就是說發生狀況他要下班了他就也是奮固的到達現場去做一個協助但是他大概也沒有想到說歹徒是拿了這個器械槍枝或什麼這一類的那當然未來我們這個部分會加強訓練"},{"start":268.337,"end":273.584,"text":"那第三個部分就是在對於監視器的部分就是第一時間到這個捷運的這個M8的那個那個那個地方的狀況我們第一時間當然是會了解這個帶圖的這個動線那確實在阪南線M2的地方我們發現北捷"},{"start":284.779,"end":297.09,"text":"有一組的這個監視器是故障的故障的所以這個也是一個我們要了解歹徒要他逃逸方向的一個組外的一個點這個三個狀況大概這樣子好 署長"},{"start":299.952,"end":321.023,"text":"因為我是今天第一個質詢那我也是想借這個時間其實是透過您的說明一方面是讓警察的所作所為有機會更完整的跟社會大眾報告一方面是降低社會的疑慮一方面是讓警察有機會能夠把自己的工作向社會大眾做報告我們當然要求未來還要精進"},{"start":321.843,"end":332.511,"text":"但目前現在的處置我們認為其實越公開的資訊越能夠讓大家對警察的情務了解的同時也降低民眾恐懼未來公開資訊這個部分請署長部長繼續持續的就這個重大事件向社會做說明這是我第一個部分"},{"start":339.716,"end":368.473,"text":"那第二個部分其實我對於剛剛您說的這個部分喔要說的是警力有限但民力無窮在這個過程當中我們看到了民眾有奮不顧身去協助擋住災害的部分的這樣子的英勇民眾但是也有更多的民眾其實我們希望他們達到的是一個自保的狀況所以我利用我最後的兩分鐘質詢時間我想跟部長來探討一下這個大家現在昨天之後大家在想的這個小局書的部分"},{"start":369.073,"end":383.261,"text":"昨天之後其實大家都在看小局書裡面有沒有教到我們對這樣子的重大危害的生命的事件有指引有因應有教我們怎麼做呢部長我想請問一下劉部長我想請問一下這次昨天的事件在小局書裡面有寫到嗎"},{"start":389.877,"end":409.457,"text":"我们写的部分比较没有那么明确其实没有因为是我们是在教民众自救的部分比如说止血啊或者是什么AED的部分等等的这个部分没有但是在这个12页里面有如何自救与护救里面有提到毒化物质的灾害的时候"},{"start":409.497,"end":424.369,"text":"沒錯 這是災害發生的時候但是署長對不起我再回來問署長署長你會定義如何定義昨天這樣的一個重大治安事件這個事件是一個你會定義它是恐怖攻擊嗎我想這個還是有一段距離這個是一個隨機的一個襲擊事件"},{"start":427.912,"end":433.816,"text":"那你會定義它是暴力重大人為危安事件嗎應該會會嘛 對不對會好 其實部長 署長我想也是跟大家分享我們的小局書裡面當然沒有這樣子的一個面對重大暴力危害事件但是其實我們在7月的時候行政院的國土安全辦公室"},{"start":453.47,"end":476.644,"text":"其實就有出了一份民眾自我安全防護常識篇的反暴力重大人為維安事件或恐怖攻擊其實在裡面我們快速的看一下其實在裡面寫得非常的清楚剛好就是昨天這個重大事件其實在裡面可以看得很清楚常見的手段有哪些砍殺縱火槍擊劫持爆炸昨天裡面就有砍殺就有縱火"},{"start":478.365,"end":501.942,"text":"好再來我們如何辨識這可疑的人事物其實這裡面指引的很清楚很明白的告訴我們未來你在場合上面看到什麼樣的人你可以覺得你應該覺得他是可疑的人可疑的是甚至是如何辨識危險物品也講得非常的清楚再來碰到了可疑的人事物的時候你要做什麼你要怎麼通報"},{"start":503.283,"end":516.702,"text":"通報警察也是要有技巧的不要講一大堆其他的反而降低了通報的時間最後面對剛剛這樣子的事件的時候我們的策略是什麼其實跟國際完全接軌就是跑躲"},{"start":518.154,"end":541.915,"text":"跑躲還有說這三大策略因為就像部長剛剛您說的自救和救人是同樣重要不必逞英雄自救可以及時的離開危險現場反而是對民眾最大的指引所以其實我是認為其實這份指引非常的詳盡而且重要不過也看得出來因為他在第一頁的時候他就有說"},{"start":542.816,"end":571.169,"text":"因為台灣在這個恐怖主義風險指數其實是很低的在全球163個國家之中我們排100是屬於恐怖攻擊很低的國家所以當時我猜你們在編列小局書的時候並沒有把這一項恐怖攻擊放進去但我想部長和署長今天我們確實面對的不見得是恐怖攻擊可是它確實也是重大的"},{"start":572.421,"end":600.401,"text":"暴力重大人為維安事件未來我們是不是可以考慮把這麼重要的指引如果小局書要繼續精進的時候可以放在裡面把這麼重要的跑躲縮這樣的指引讓更多人知道感謝委員支持我們在下一次在更新版的時候會放到裡面去我想這個沒有人想看到危險但既然它發生了我們就應該要有自救自保的能力所以在這裡強烈的建議內政部下一次可以提出這樣的建議"},{"start":603.615,"end":604.303,"text":"好 谢谢委员"}]}},{"id":"166555","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166555","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d10384fab6324876a361838e3ba52219cc70f6784d8ee57f2409fa637cdb474afce8b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:07:14 - 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谢谢今天与会所有学者专家和青年朋友非常开心从去年范玉委员已经先召开一次性别评的教育公听会今天在陈秀宝召委的主持下又开了这个公听会我想从几个案例来分享几个我关心的议题虽然我现在不在教文 可是我想相关的议题还是非常重要所以我还是想要回来发言第一个我想要跟大家谈金门县京城国中的考题"},{"start":31.874,"end":50.203,"text":"因为我现在是部分区那我服务的区域就是金门跟马祖所以当时我们看到这个新闻事件呢我们办公室第一时间跟国教署联络然后到目前为止我们都持续追踪这中间有非常多来来往往那我们非常开心看到目前该校已经于上个月召开教评会议将其解聘"},{"start":50.623,"end":73.91,"text":"而且四年内不得担任教育人员但是我要说这个问题其实彰显了教育现场有很大的一个困境就是现存的审题机制其实应该出现了破口也出现了漏洞可是到底是因为审题人员的性别意识不足还是审题机制变成只是一个机制性的过水我们都不希望未来在任何学校任何考题看到这样的状况"},{"start":74.33,"end":102.407,"text":"因此我们未来还可以怎么做我想我们等一下可以来讨论第二个是关于黄金格之下毒案这个案子里面所有的加害人或者是当事人或者是导师大家都觉得自己是非常冤枉的这个案件细节我就不再多说可是在相关的判决里面提到因为导师多次忽视当作没事最后女同学只能私利救济在判决书里面有提到所以我们可以看到在这个案件当中"},{"start":102.967,"end":122.652,"text":"女童被性騷男童被報復下毒而導致因為長期漠視而被開罰如果大家都不好受的情況下到底這件事情如果可以及早發現及早處理是不是就可以抑止這場悲劇不要發生所以我們後續也可以來看到底在現場還可以怎麼預防第三個是關於最近名傳大學商務英文的課程"},{"start":123.212,"end":140.786,"text":"先不要講這個老師大學授課老師其實在性別平等教育法裡面並沒有規範大學授課老師必須要受到性平相關訓練的課程這個體制面的問題可是我要說這樣的一個為人師表光是在課堂上發出這種問卷還公開學生的填答"},{"start":141.286,"end":159.432,"text":"不配合還要言語學生光是這樣的行為就讓整個課程變成冒犯他人性隱私的場域而涉案的老師甚至還喊冤說是問卷設計不周只是想多一點互動可是我要說這個人他不是一個老師而已他光是身為一個人的性平之能都大大的有問題"},{"start":160.672,"end":177.944,"text":"以上從這些問題來看我們大概可以整理出幾個面向第一個性別平等教育的成效有限雖然大家覺得推廣已經行之有年學生在作業考試的問答上好像也都表現得不錯可是落實到生活裡面看起來其實出現了很大的gap第二個"},{"start":178.504,"end":201.963,"text":"教师本身性平意识的不足很多老师认为知识归师是实践归实践可是如何把知识化为实践可能连很多老师个人在过去的学习经验当中也是感到非常的陌生第三个是整体社会的性平意识也很不足所以我想这也是未来我们可以努力的还有就是目前校园性别事件调查处理的公平跟公正性令人怀疑"},{"start":202.523,"end":219.842,"text":"因为性平之能的不足还有失失相互的风险因此让很多人担心校园性别事件调查处理的公正跟公平性所以我想既然是公听会身为立法委员我们还是想要对行政机关积极地提出一些建议也希望各位学者可以一起讨论跟参考第一个"},{"start":221.03,"end":243.067,"text":"校园内性别平等教育的积极在落实我刚刚已经说了推行了这么多年很多人认为孩子们的相关素养已经够了目前我们看到教育部还有推出中学全面性教育教学指引手册还甚至受到一些批评跟指教但我想相关的批评跟指教都是希望事情可以做得更好可是我们如何在教育部还有"},{"start":243.947,"end":268.613,"text":"產官學民間專家學者的討論之下我們可以積極的提供更多相關教材跟教學資源讓性別平等教育的教學可以更加深入學生的心中和落實在日常的實踐當中第二個學校教職人員的性平之能可以再深化目前我們看到在失陪人員培訓的過程當中性平課程只是選修我再次強調只是選修"},{"start":269.093,"end":298.017,"text":"它不是必修当然可能要涉及修施培法都还可以再讨论可是学校里面的教职员包含校长主任老师每一天都在教学现场的第一线跟孩子们在一起而中央跟地方的教育主管机关本来就应该提供给这些现场第一线的人员更多教学资源以充实他们的职能我们知道都有办相关的研习可是如果研习的效果看起来是有限而且甚至是不足的是不是教育部跟国教署要研议其他"},{"start":298.477,"end":310.109,"text":"更有效率的方法来增进学校教职员的性平之能第三个整体社会来看社会的性平教育一样的重要那这个我就要回到终身教育司里面我们一直在谈的"},{"start":311.127,"end":333.229,"text":"家庭教育跟終身教育絕對是責無旁貸如何把社會的力量一起拉進來透過公部門的資源跟政策的預算引導讓社會的性平教育同樣積極往前最後我要提的是在修性別三法的時候我辦公室在三年前就已經提出我們希望有所謂的第三方調查機構目前我們看到光是從校園的校士會議裡面"},{"start":334.23,"end":350.138,"text":"我們看見的困境是社會大眾或者是家長社群對於校事處理的不信任可是同樣的我們也看到老師的社群對於家長濫訴議題的不滿一邊是不信任一邊是不滿短期之內我們看到教育部已經要修訂校事會議的規定"},{"start":351.418,"end":369.272,"text":"現在來看或許可能是一個解方可是如果要治標又治本的情況我還是要再度提出有沒有機會成立一個第三方調查機構協助處理相關事件的調查跟處遇一方面提供一個更公平公正程序更透明更具專業的調查團隊"},{"start":371.594,"end":387.536,"text":"讓外界難以對其決定上下其手確保調查處理的公正性解決社會大眾跟家長的擔憂另外一方面讓調查程序在校外進行讓學校回歸單純的教學空間學校校長 主任 老師也可以免於事件的紛擾"},{"start":388.297,"end":410.653,"text":"更重要的是專責第三方機構有可能還可以協助轉介其他專業的資源例如說法律或是心理衛生讓當事人不要面對這麼大的程序壓力說了這麼多我們就是希望所有在法規範以及政府資源能夠做的事情我們還可以更加精進當然立法委員持續監督也非常重要以上是我今天的發言謝謝"},{"start":412.725,"end":421.581,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇委員百忙中特別來關心性命病人教育法遇到的實務困境那再來我們請宜蘭"}]}},{"id":"166554","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166554","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d10380b0389c9be1e188f38e3ba52219cc70f6784d8ee57f2409f1b1c8797d1715c815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:01:33 - 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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":770.837,"end":771.2,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1498.51,"end":1509.496,"text":"好 交通委員會現在出席委員已足法定人數但我想"},{"start":1510.814,"end":1536.174,"text":"交通委員會身為中華民國最高的交通民意機關在今天開會之前是不是能夠先邀請我們在場的所有委員以及官員先大家一起站起來起立默哀我們為上個禮拜五 1219發生的一個不幸的事件三位無辜離開的國人我們為他默哀"},{"start":1536.844,"end":1563.216,"text":"並且我們希望傷者能夠早日康復 逝者安息台灣社會能夠恢復平穩我們默哀十秒鐘好 默哀必 大家請坐"},{"start":1566.004,"end":1591.923,"text":"我想在交通委員會開始之前一二一九不幸的一個無差別攻擊事件造成台灣社會人心浮動更有三位無辜的國人離我們而去我們希望他們的靈魂能夠平息但是在這個事件裡面我們也看到人性的光輝跟第一線的警察同仁公務同仁奮勇努力"},{"start":1593.729,"end":1605.679,"text":"來逮捕兇嫌所以我們也感謝所有的警察同仁在第一線給予台灣社會安定的力量我們更希望透過今天的一個默哀以及也要向"},{"start":1607.313,"end":1635.362,"text":"國際以及我們所有關心台灣社會的友人來表達台灣的大眾運輸以及台灣的交通治安在世界上都還是排名名列前茅也因此我們不希望這次事件讓國際友人造成誤會台灣還是一個善良正直溫暖的地方我們更希望大家共同的努力讓台灣社會充滿陽光我們"},{"start":1636.587,"end":1657.239,"text":"堵絕厭惡並且拒絕任何的邪惡及暴力在臺灣的每一個角落這是我們共同的主張天佑臺灣天佑中華民國好現在初期初期委員打法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1660.305,"end":1677.664,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期交通委員會第十一次全體委員會議議事錄 時間一百一四年十二月十七日星期三上午九時至十二時四六分 地點本院紅樓二零一會議室 主席委員洪孟凱等十五人 立席委員陳培宇等十六人 立席官員交通部常務社長林國賢等"},{"start":1678.585,"end":1699.572,"text":"主席李昭吉委員昆哲 報告四項 宣讀上次會議議事錄 決定議事錄確定 邀請交通部等進行專題報告並備諮詢 討論四項一至三審查香港法 民用航空法 大眾運輸工具 波音語言 平等保障法等修正草案 本日會議由交通部常務次長林國賢等報告"},{"start":1700.652,"end":1729.32,"text":"由委員黃健豪說明提案要旨後 最後委員洪孟凱等21人提出質詢 軍經常務次長林國賢等及相關人員分別予以答覆決議一 報告及詢討完畢 二 委員吳佩義等提書面質詢 三 委員質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分 請交通部及相關機關盡數以書面答覆 四 討論四項一至三個案 均另定其繼續審查 通過臨時提案一項 散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1730.623,"end":1756.861,"text":"好 請問各位委員對醫事錄有沒有意見好 那我們等一下等那個交通委員會委員人數到齊之後再確認醫事錄好 那我們現在先在場 介紹在場委員 首先介紹我們交通委員會本會陳雪生委員好 以及羅志強委員"},{"start":1759.497,"end":1768.665,"text":"好 介紹列席人員 我們國家通訊發展傳播委員會代理主委陳崇樹主委以及黃文哲主任秘書"},{"start":1770.711,"end":1798.2,"text":"那另外國家通訊傳播委員會電台內容事務處以及法務事務處還有我們金管會經濟部勞動部內政部法務部司法院行政司法院行政訴訟懲戒廳還有行政院主計總處公務預算處的相關代表我們就一併感謝好 本日會議進行衛星廣播電視法等修正草案的逐條審查"},{"start":1801.018,"end":1821.42,"text":"本日會議逐條審查程序先宣讀條文 如有修正動議也一併宣讀 宣讀完即進行協商處理那剛剛議事同仁跟本席報告約會宣讀差不多20到30分鐘那我們請等一下宣讀完之後那也請我們黨團在場助理要"},{"start":1822.16,"end":1835.546,"text":"記得提醒有提案的委員前來那本席先來徵求大家同意就是說等一下我們再進行逐條審查的時候如果說在場的委員這個提案或是連鎖委員沒有在場的話因為"},{"start":1837.2,"end":1851.044,"text":"優於這個會議的一個進行 我們可能就先保留不處理那我們希望是能夠有提案委員或是說聯署委員能夠到場那我們來跟行政部門做充分的一個溝通討論那我們現在就請宣讀 謝謝衛星廣"},{"start":1862.828,"end":1891.908,"text":"衛星廣播電視法修正草案對條文對照表 主宣讀修正增訂文字外其餘均衡新型條文委員羅志強等提案第一條 守據衛的後面 增訂捍衛新聞自由等文字 委員羅志強等提案第二條增訂第八款文字內容為 把新聞頻道指專以自播新聞節目為主持頻道 以下各款第一民眾黨團提案第二條"},{"start":1893.669,"end":1910.615,"text":"增訂第九塊 以及第四款文字內容為九 新聞及財經頻道之一 製播新聞財經等節目為主要內容之頻道 時製播新聞節目之頻道 此前款以外 經常製播新聞節目之頻道 以下款次 第一"},{"start":1911.515,"end":1938.068,"text":"臺灣民眾黨團提案第四條 徵令第四項文字內容為經營新聞及財經頻道或自播新聞節目之頻道之衛星廣播電視事業應向證券主管機關辦理股票公開發行為陳雪生等提案第五條修正後全文為第五條政府政黨其捐助成立之財團法人及其受託人不得為下列行為但其他法律利用規定者不在此現依"},{"start":1938.728,"end":1955.522,"text":"直接投資衛星廣播電視事業二擔任衛星廣播電視事業之發起人董事監察人或經理人三以間接投資或其他方式達控制衛星廣播電視事業之人事財務或業務有下類情形之一者視為遣款"},{"start":1956.443,"end":1972.323,"text":"前項第三款所稱控制依政府其捐助成立製裁團法人或其受託人個別間接持有衛星廣播電視事業之股份與該事業已發行股份總數百分之十但政府基金或國營事業應執行或委託投信機構"},{"start":1973.524,"end":1988.918,"text":"投資而持有的股份數不在此限而政府其捐助成立資財團法人及其受託人經濟持有衛星廣播電視事業的股份合計於該事業已發行股份總數10%但政府基金或國營事業應自行或委託投信及"},{"start":1989.999,"end":2004.633,"text":"投資而持有之股份數不在此限三公營事業擔任系統經營者之發起人董事監察人或經理人政黨其捐助成立資財團法人及其受託人不得為下列行為一間接投資衛星廣播電視事業二間接投資衛星廣播電視事業三擔任衛星廣播"},{"start":2011.417,"end":2027.455,"text":"電視事業之發起人 董事監察人或經理人士 以其他方式達控自衛星廣播電視事業之人士財務或業務 除法例另有規定外政府政黨不得捐助成立衛星廣播電視事業政黨黨務工作人員 政務人員及"},{"start":2028.215,"end":2044.113,"text":"選任公職人員不得投資衛星廣播電視事業其配偶二親等以內置血親子系因親投資同一衛星廣播電視事業者其持有這股份合計不得與該系統經營者以發行股份總數百分之一政黨政務工作人員及"},{"start":2045.334,"end":2066.083,"text":"選任公職人員不得擔任衛星廣播電視事業之發起人董事監察人或經理人其二項所稱政黨黨務工作人員政務人員及選任公職人員之範圍於本事形系的定制違反第一項第一款第三項第一款或第五項規定者其取得之股份無表決權中央主管機關並得令其限期處分"},{"start":2067.624,"end":2084.977,"text":"現期不為處分者不得享有股東權利衛星廣播電視事業不得容許其行使表決權或享有股東權利依違反第一項第二款第三款第三項第二款自第四款或第六款第六或第六項規定者中央主管機關得令衛星廣播電視事業"},{"start":2087.034,"end":2097.9,"text":"限期為下列行為解除 擔任董事監察人或經理人自此 二解除政府政黨及捐助資財團法人及其受託人對微星廣播電視事業之控制"},{"start":2099.966,"end":2127.932,"text":"委員呼籲其等提案第五條政府政黨其捐助成立資財團法人及其受託人不得介入及控制衛星廣播電視事業之經營政府其捐助成立資財團法人及其受託人應遵守下列四項一不得擔任衛星廣播電視事業之發起人董事監察人或經理人而持有衛星廣播電視事業股份者得出席股東會為股東會決議事項中依公司法規定之股東會"},{"start":2129.403,"end":2146.413,"text":"特別決議事項或涉及衛星廣播電視事業之董事監察人資選任解任及改選事項不得加入表決並不得代理他股東行使其表決權請向這個規定政務人員及選任公職人員準用資政黨政"},{"start":2147.654,"end":2171.205,"text":"政黨 政黨 黨務 工作人員不得投資 衛星廣播電視事業或擔任衛星廣播電視事業之發起人 董事監察人或經理人其配偶二親等之血親子系因親投資同一衛星廣播電視事業其持有之股份不得加入表決並不得代理他股東行使其表決權 請二項所稱政務人員選任公職人員及政黨政黨黨務工作人員之範圍於本"},{"start":2175.247,"end":2190.339,"text":"與本法施行細則定之 委員翁曉能等提案第四條在第一項的第三款莫具增訂明顯重大等文字第四款的前段"},{"start":2191.863,"end":2208.164,"text":"做修整將資金修正為財務技術以及在莫具徵訂明顯兩個文字然後徵訂第三項文字內容為主管機關審查衛星廣播電視事業之聲涉案應於三個月內審查完成"},{"start":2208.724,"end":2232.332,"text":"必要時得延長三個月 並以一次為限 委員羅志強等提案第十一條第一項及第二項的默劇均修正為九年 然後增訂第三項以新聞頻道為主之衛星廣播 電視事業之執照期限為永久 委員翁曉琳等提案第十一條第一項及第二項的默劇修正為七年 委員議員之"},{"start":2234.594,"end":2259.557,"text":"提案第十一條在第一項以及第二項的默劇均修正為無確定期限等文字民眾 台灣民眾黨黨團提案新增第十二條之一經營新聞及財經頻道或自播新聞節目之頻道之衛星廣播電視事業應依主管機關指定之方式於每年六月三十日前將前一年度下列資訊公開揭露於"},{"start":2260.077,"end":2279.393,"text":"主管機關指定之網站及該事業之網站一事業名稱地址負責人董事監察人及經理人二持有已發行已有表決權股份總數百分之五以上之股東名單三事業之股權結構四董監事選任辦法五股東常委臨時會之議事錄"},{"start":2281.374,"end":2299.103,"text":"六至政府機關公立學校供應事業或其捐助成立之財團法人取得至採購標案內容與金額以及其他各類補助項目資金額其主要廣告收入來源八負責人董事監察人經理人及直接或間接持有已發行有表決權"},{"start":2300.143,"end":2326.926,"text":"股份總數百分之十以上股東之投資事業概況就其他經營主管機關指定之四項為翁曉琳等提案第十五條在第二項的默劇徵訂主管機關應於兩個月內完成並更設立登記事項之審查標識得延長兩個月以並以一次為限為羅志強等提案第十七條第一項的默劇修正為屆滿五年時"},{"start":2328.089,"end":2344.266,"text":"第二項的前段主管機關應的後面徵訂應協助輔導改善債等文字中段做修正文字在主管機關的後面將應修正為德"},{"start":2346.26,"end":2375.655,"text":"第三項的默劇徵訂每五年檢討之並順立法院審查徵訂第四項以及第五項文字內容為執照招註銷自微信廣播電視事業及境外微信廣播電視事業之分公司或代理商若提起行政救濟於訴願期間或行政訴訟確定判決前執照繼續有效本條修正通過後效力述及溯及既往適用徵售中案件"},{"start":2377.27,"end":2397.162,"text":"委員翁曉琳等提案第十七條第一項的默劇作修正於該事業取得執照或換照後每三年辦理一次評鑑 增訂第二項衛星廣播電視事業及外衛星廣播電視事業之分工失禍代理商於辦理評鑑前三年內受裁罰處分未於三次且累計罰員"},{"start":2398.883,"end":2426.239,"text":"金額位於新台幣八十萬元以上者免予評鑑 第三項的據手修正第一項文字 整列第四項以及第五項衛星廣播電視事業之境外衛星廣播電視事業之分公司或代理商不符前項廢紙執照處分向行政法院提起行政訴訟等於本案訴訟判決確定前繼續營運 第一項至第三項之評鑑及免予"},{"start":2426.939,"end":2452.164,"text":"評鑑程序審查項目評分基準評鑑結果改正事項與其他應遵行事項的辦法由主管機關定之為翁曉琳等提案第十八條 增訂第三項衛星廣播定日事業及境外衛星廣播定日事業之分公司或代理商於執照期間符合下列要件時主管機關不得駁回其換照申請已受裁判處分位於六次且累計罰員金額為"},{"start":2454.784,"end":2472.624,"text":"於新台幣五百萬元二位受停播節目或停播頻道之處分現行第三項 第一為第四項並於中段徵訂第二項之審酌標準等文字為羅志強等提案第十九條"},{"start":2474.365,"end":2493.46,"text":"修正後文字內容為主管機關經依前條第二項規定審查任申請人有營運不散之餘應先協助輔導改善主管機關令申請人限期補正資料借其不補正 補正不全且持續不改善時 都不會其申請傾向關於營運不散之認定標準於"},{"start":2494.1,"end":2512.991,"text":"撥回申請之程序就計另一法律定資就計期間與行政訴訟確定判決前申請人之執照繼續有效本條修正通過後效率溯及既往適用徵訟中案件委員翁曉林等提案第十九條修正後文字內容為主管機關一前條規定審查任申請人"},{"start":2514.251,"end":2541.473,"text":"營運不散 有改善之必要時 應先以書面通知其限期改善或令 限期補正資料 藉其無法改正或不補正補正不全時 不為其申請 僅向審查及改善期間於執照效期 主管機關得發給 臨時執照其有效期間為六個月必要時 得延長三個月至六個月以一次為限 申請不符第一項不為換照申請處分向行政法院提起行政訴訟等於本"},{"start":2541.873,"end":2568.369,"text":"案訴訟判決確定前繼續營運 委員翁曉琳等提案第二十條徵訂第三項以及第四項諮詢會議委員名單及會議記錄應公開前項所稱之會議記錄子諮詢會議之案由議程決議內容及出席會議成員名單 現行第三項第一為第五項然後後"},{"start":2569.332,"end":2590.808,"text":"後段將規則兩個文字修正為辦法並於莫具徵定並送立法院備查等文字台灣民眾黨黨團提案第49條第一款的中段徵定第4項等文字委員翁曉琳等提案第50條刪除"},{"start":2593.855,"end":2610.331,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案新增第五十八條之一經營新聞及財經頻道或直播新聞節目之頻道之衛星廣播電視事業違反第十二條之一規定處新台幣二十萬元以上兩百萬元以下罰款並令其限期改正藉其不改正者得按次處罰"},{"start":2611.992,"end":2636.972,"text":"委員許智傑等提案第六十四條在第二項的後段修正為四年委員洪孟凱等提案第六十四條也是在第二項的後段修正為四年委員翁曉琳等提案第六十六條之一 增訂第三項本法修正私刑嫌對主管機關依本法所作之廢止執照或撥回 換照處分依法提起行政"},{"start":2638.194,"end":2641.099,"text":"訴訟上與訴訟系屬者得繼續營運宣讀完畢"},{"start":2691.465,"end":2717.122,"text":"好 各位在場委員跟大家報告 現在修正動議那我們請議事同仁來稍微整理一下那我們在議事同仁整理修正動議的時候我們 那議事錄要不要先確認好 我確認一下 上一次議事錄請問有沒有意見好 沒有意見 那議事錄就確認 好那我們再請同仁宣讀今天提出來的修正動議"},{"start":2720.342,"end":2725.624,"text":"修正動議一由委員洪孟愷等"},{"start":2726.226,"end":2749.662,"text":"提案 第十一條 趙委員 羅自強委 趙委員 羅自強等提案刪除第三項 第十七條的第二項以下修正內容為衛星廣播電視事業及境外衛星廣播電視事業之分公司或代理商於辦理評鑑前三年內 受裁罰處分位於三次且累計 划還金額"},{"start":2751.977,"end":2777.058,"text":"位於新台幣80萬元以上者免予評鑑 第一項評鑑結果不合格主管機關應先助輔導改善 再令其限期改正其無法改正者出新文台應由主管機關繼續輔導改正外主管機關得廢止其衛星廣播電視事業及境外衛星衛星廣播電視事業之分公司或代理商許可並註銷其執照"},{"start":2780.371,"end":2807.342,"text":"第四項對照委員羅志強等提案在中斷後修正為與行政徵送程序終結前仍得依原執照繼續與原頻道行使權利第五項修正為廢紙許可或註銷執照之行政處分經撤銷廢紙或因其他原因失其效力後主管機關對於受評鑑人不回"},{"start":2810.844,"end":2819.048,"text":"第六項本條修正通過後效力溯及既往適用行政徵送程序終結前子案件 第七項衛星廣播"},{"start":2822.621,"end":2842.734,"text":"電視事業及境外衛星廣播電視事業之分公司或代理商依第一項規定申請評鑑滿六個月後若主管機關仍未就評鑑作成處分時視為評鑑合格主管機關不得另為其他處分本法修正私刑前以申請評鑑者異同本條之評鑑即免於評鑑程序"},{"start":2844.055,"end":2859.368,"text":"審查項目評分基準及其他應遵循四項的辦法有主管機關定制並應每5年檢討自第19條對照委員羅志強等提案在中斷後修正為"},{"start":2861.21,"end":2887.152,"text":"資財物狀況已無法正常營運或申請人有改正之必要時主管機關應先協助輔導改善具體說明待改正之審查四項這審查項目內容並以書面通知申請人限期改正或補正第二項前項限期改正或令限期補正資料期間主管機關應發給臨時執照其有效期間為兩年藉其為完成者得申請延長一次"},{"start":2890.01,"end":2908.137,"text":"該事業與臨時執照延長期間屆滿未完成改正或補正者都不回期申請人限期改正或補正資料期間至本條修正通過之日起算第三項後"},{"start":2911.153,"end":2927.798,"text":"第3項第4項第5項第6項修正為經主管機關駁回換照申請自衛星廣播電視事業及境外衛星廣播電視事業這份公司或代理商與行政徵送程序終結前或主管機關令為"},{"start":2929.739,"end":2945.715,"text":"許可換照之處分前人得依原執照繼續原頻道行使權利頻道如已招下駕駐管機關應回戶申請人資原頻道位置及其他權利駁回換照申請之行政處分經撤銷廢止或因其他"},{"start":2946.716,"end":2967.053,"text":"原因施其效力後 主管機關對於申請人附回戶原狀及頻道位置之異物 前條及本條修正通過後效力設計暨往上與行政徵送程序中之申請人的依原自到繼續與原頻道行使權利 主管機關對於申請人戶回戶原狀及頻道位置之異"},{"start":2968.114,"end":2968.814,"text":"宣布完畢"},{"start":3021.294,"end":3036.442,"text":"好 感謝各位委員同仁那我們現在宣 條文已經宣讀完畢那我們就正式進入主條審查好那第一條是"},{"start":3055.666,"end":3070.095,"text":"好來我們首先就我們就先主條那還是一樣這個各提案委員或是臉書委員都有到現場了嗎那我們就先來首先第一條來提案委員羅志強委員主管機關有沒有意見"},{"start":3073.669,"end":3096.02,"text":"尊重委員提案好那如果說我們在場提案委員沒有特別要說明的我們就直接先讓這個行政機關這邊表達好不好好那尊重委員提案那這樣第一條我們就修正通過好再來第二條我們提案委 那個行政機關要不要先說明一下"},{"start":3097.017,"end":3109.572,"text":"是那董委員的提案這邊新增新聞頻道的定義但是這個定義似乎沒有包括現況已經含有的這個財經新聞頻道所以感覺上這個適用上會有一些異議"},{"start":3114.153,"end":3135.904,"text":"所以您的意思代理所有您的意思是我的意思如果說要符合現況的話可能跟民眾黨團的提案會比較接近就是說我會建議說如果維持現行條文就可以的話就不用處理如果說一定要改我建議說採民眾黨團的版本新聞及財經新聞頻道"},{"start":3139.525,"end":3146.424,"text":"好 來 提案委員好 這個意見我接受我覺得到時候可以用民眾黨的提案來"},{"start":3147.999,"end":3170.889,"text":"不是啦 民眾黨提案他變成是新增兩個一個是新聞財經頻道然後另外他還有在製播新聞節目之頻道那但是羅委員現在的版本其實是一個就是增加新聞頻道那所以應該還是要文字調整還是說文字調整改成新聞及財經頻道"},{"start":3172.321,"end":3187.262,"text":"所以以羅志強委員的版本新聞及財經頻道及財經新聞來我們有沒有我們同仁可不可以直接那個文字就把它打上去那我們大家確認好不好"},{"start":3188.766,"end":3208.639,"text":"因為這跟民眾黨團的版本又不一樣民眾黨團的版本它多增兩項那羅委員只有一項那我剛剛已經有提過就是說如果在場委員沒有在或者是沒有連署委員在的話那那個版本我們看是不是就要討論也可以可是我還是以尊重我們在場委員在現場為主好不好"},{"start":3210.421,"end":3238.189,"text":"好 所以如果說現在是以羅志強委員的版本那就是在上次八多增加一個新聞及財經新聞頻道好 那後面只專以製播新聞跨乎節目為主之頻道這樣子的說明是可以的好 在場委員有沒有意見如果這樣修改好"},{"start":3240.359,"end":3260.9,"text":"那如果沒有其他委員有意見那這個我們行政部門就除了NCC以外各相關機關如果說有到各相關機關的這個業務有意見要表達也請主動提出好嗎不然我就當各出席機關也是認同這樣的一個修正喔"},{"start":3263.205,"end":3286.742,"text":"來 準備請說因為這邊是兩個概念新聞還有財經新聞其實是兩個類型的節目所以後面的定義的話把它叫像一個只專以直播新聞刮鬍節目頓點財經新聞為主要內容之頻道後面就這樣一個財經OK 就等於是前面有新聞及財經新聞頻道那後面就是直播新聞"},{"start":3288.989,"end":3317.57,"text":"誇虎節目頓點財經新聞為主之頻道對不對等於是說明跟那個增加對應後面 來 後面對 這邊誇虎節目不用括號節目嗎建議是不用括號節目好 來 那我們來看一下"},{"start":3321.519,"end":3337.929,"text":"那好 次播新聞然後再往後兩格財經 新聞那後面還需要等節目嗎等節目為主要內容之頻道那這樣等節目那三個字也要紅字"},{"start":3345.68,"end":3367.872,"text":"好 大家看一下因為其實跟羅偉源的版本還是有增加當然意義差不多但是有增加滿多的字是不相同包括說羅偉源版本原本是為主之頻道但是這邊變成是為主要內容多增加了主要內容所以這樣子是更加完整啦其實意義不變 但更加完整"},{"start":3369.012,"end":3384.781,"text":"好來各位委員是來後面的那個直播直播新聞節目啦因為是搭配後面要去做規範可是因為直播新聞節目的那個頻道其實非常非常多大小我們現在討論就是現在有的版本好不好好沒有"},{"start":3411.314,"end":3417.342,"text":"如果說這邊沒有人見我們出委員會就可以去參與了"},{"start":3429.054,"end":3458.095,"text":"我們剛剛想表達是說民眾黨團版本那個直播那條不適合啦但是現在是還在漏人的版本階段好因為今天是交通委員會審查所以我們逐條審查還是行政部門確認那如果說真的大家出委員會沒有意見我們就會送院會就沒有意見的可以送院會就處理就處理那如果說有意見的但是大家能夠取得部分的共識那我們會出委員會但是去做朝野協商"},{"start":3458.835,"end":3473.808,"text":"所以今天的這個流程大家也都很清楚嘛所以我要確認行政部門就是如果說今天條文像第一條沒有意見我就會出去直接院會做後續的處理那他就不跟我們其他"},{"start":3475.029,"end":3493.509,"text":"一些版本可能沒有共識的話那要去朝野協商就不一樣好 那這樣子所以我們再回來一下包主席我有來 沒關係 那羅委員先然後最後再蔡委員我有一個建議就是說其實這個把它變成一條那個跟民眾黨是把它拆成兩個項目"},{"start":3495.891,"end":3506.085,"text":"我覺得基本上意義是差不多啦那因為雖然民眾黨目前就尊重郭辰兄這邊我的這邊條文字可以用民眾黨的版本的文字"},{"start":3508.021,"end":3529.46,"text":"就是新聞跟新聞財經財經新聞把它分開成兩項兩款來列感謝羅委員但是剛聽我們行政部門的講法是他們認為說民眾黨團的版本還有一些需要溝通的地方所以說他其實是比較贊同羅委員的版本那就是把它維持就新聞或財經新聞頻道對吧"},{"start":3533.049,"end":3554.127,"text":"好 那國城兄您剛到我是不是先請蔡委員來發言好不好來 蔡委員那個主席這個大家在交通委員會裡面討論本席上一次在巡打的時候已經講過本席非常同意依照委員會的程序大家"},{"start":3555.273,"end":3574.082,"text":"委員會中心主義的概念大家在這裡討論但這裡有共識並不表示他就可以處理為什麼因為國民黨黨團的版本已經直接惡毒了那本席如果對國民黨黨團的版本淨附惡毒我的條文有意見那因為他沒有在委員會裡面審議嘛"},{"start":3575.925,"end":3583.964,"text":"所以換言之你現在今天就算有共識的版本你一樣要進入朝野協商因為我們跳脫了有一個版本"},{"start":3585.729,"end":3608.618,"text":"特別是黨團版本他又比個別委員的這個意義來得更大所以本席才會講說主席不宜做一個裁示說今天大家有共識交通委員有共識的版本他就直接院會處理其實他還是要經過黨團協商的程序嘛否則為什麼可以有版本直接惡賭本席也沒表示過意見嘛"},{"start":3609.981,"end":3633.949,"text":"所以我覺得沒關係主席你照你的程序只是說本席覺得這個程序上還是要照這樣走啦否則的話有一個版本在惡毒那我們在這裡審那到底那個惡毒的版本跟這個版本的差異是什麼這個沒有經過委員會裡面討論嘛所以我只是表達一下我的立場主席你可以繼續沒問題但我只是把我的立場說明清楚好"},{"start":3635.033,"end":3654.998,"text":"來 那羅委員要不要先說明第一個我覺得我先回應一下那個蔡啟昌委員第一個那個黨團版本的部分因為民進黨提出復議所以目前為止的話我們並沒有針對這復議與推翻所以整個的修法進程來看的話就是以委員會的整個審查"},{"start":3656.218,"end":3678.025,"text":"的版本為主所以這個目前以進度上來講的話是要那個禁負二讀版基本上目前暫時也不會審所以我們就會回到委員會的版本那第二個當然也尊重那個蔡啟昌委員的意見如果說真的趙思源委員意見這邊我們大家有共識的版本仍然還要再協商的話那我們就直接保留好了對"},{"start":3680.387,"end":3699.629,"text":"感謝我們幾位委員出席我想我還是開宗明義強調為什麼會排在上一次排這個巡打那這一次排這個主要審查其實最重要委員會中心主義以及我們專業的針對每一條條文來去做修正我覺得這個是過去到現在我擔任立法委員一貫的一個初衷跟想法"},{"start":3700.109,"end":3722.786,"text":"那我其實回應一下是說我今天很希望能夠做到的是如果說有些條文是沒有爭議並且委員會也經過行政部門大家都確認可以修正的話那我就會以一包送出委員會然後到院會做後續的處理這個是完全大家都沒有爭議的並且在這邊取得共識的"},{"start":3723.166,"end":3739.372,"text":"那如果說在今天有任何條文任何委員有任何意見即便他的意見再怎麼這個輕微那只要沒有取得共識那我們就會遵照大家的意思到最後是不是我們一併送出委員會的時候進入朝野協商"},{"start":3739.992,"end":3762.793,"text":"那再讓草野協商這邊去做這個進一步的討論絕對不會有這個想要這個就混淆的部分所以請各位委員放心那所以我剛才想是說像第一條沒有爭議行政部門就是我修正一下剛剛第一條應該是照羅志強等55位委員提案通過第一條條文"},{"start":3764.675,"end":3788.056,"text":"修正通過照羅志強委員等55人提案修正通過那就第一條通過嘛那第二條現在剛剛有在做進一步的一個討論那如果沒有問題的話我想第二條是不是也可以文字修正後通過那我們後續我們就依照這樣的一個節奏跟我們的這樣的一個原則來去做後續的條文辦理這樣請教各位有沒有意見"},{"start":3792.353,"end":3817.006,"text":"當然修正為這樣會比較涵蓋比較明確但是我們的版本裡面也訂得很清楚是這類型所以你現在如果要通過其實不可能每一件每一個條文主條大家都會有同意但是沒有意見的我還是建議就是主席採取的方式就讓他過有意見的保留送"},{"start":3817.666,"end":3837.294,"text":"政黨協商這樣可能這個這個法會比較迅速的把它完成所以這個因為我們還是有版本所以剛才我們志強那個委員都已經講說這個部分是不是我們私底下再來談一下這個文字那大概沒有意見的話其實大概都差不多好 另外我比較"},{"start":3838.194,"end":3848.624,"text":"那我是不是可以建議如果說改成這樣子這一個就變成是民眾黨團跟羅委員的版本再修正為這個版本後通過這樣可以嗎還是要保留可以啦好那這樣子這個第二條就依照"},{"start":3860.715,"end":3870.602,"text":"羅委員等55人提案及台灣民眾黨提案的版本那再修正為我們上述的文字後通過對 就是這樣 我剛剛已經念了"},{"start":3890.202,"end":3907.161,"text":"OK好來那我們再來看第4條來各位委員請翻到第7頁第4條行政部門要不要先說明一下你們的意見好那"},{"start":3909.164,"end":3929.904,"text":"第四條這邊目前民眾黨團有提那我們的看法是認為說資訊公開是增加監督是好事但是也形成對人民私有財產的拘束我們會建議說還是要跟利害關係人多方收集意見討論清楚會比較好"},{"start":3935.484,"end":3961.492,"text":"所以代理主委你們是文字的部分修正還是說整體上我們是認為說要再去溝通如果個別就文字實務上比較會有這個困擾的是民進黨團的第四條的第四項就是建議就是建議維持原先行條文好來提案委員要不要說明"},{"start":3963.114,"end":3987.929,"text":"我想這個主委特別當然啦因為這個財務跟各方面的這些公開是所有各大媒體他們比較質疑的地方那這個質疑股票要不要發行現在問題是這一句話就是我們最後一段印象政管會意思就是上市的意思那這個部分"},{"start":3988.849,"end":4015.208,"text":"可以大家還來研究一下那公開的部分當然是沒有問題那主管機關也好本黨提案也好或者各委員我想說這個媒體讓他們去公開現在就是問題大家比較質疑的就是要公開上市也就是股票公開花錢這個部分是可能大家有疑慮那如果這大家有疑慮"},{"start":4016.608,"end":4035.797,"text":"大家有一例我認為是政黨協商大家再來做研議因為還有民進黨也好 國民黨也好都可以提修正動議把這個問題來解決掉大家協商以後各政黨來做協商再來我們提的研議就是要公開透明為原則李崑哲委員"},{"start":4039.765,"end":4061.265,"text":"謝謝張偉我請NCC等一下說明一下那系統的經營業者跟衛星頻道的業者他的規模其實是差異非常的大那營業模式其實也是不一樣那是否要克與相同的義務其實是大家要多考慮一下這等一下請NCC來做說明"},{"start":4063.335,"end":4088.318,"text":"來NCE請說明是 那因為這個條文是某種程度是在比照優廣法的規定優廣法是因為它有向用戶收取收視費用然後也有規定一定規模那我們自然是規定因為就是資本的兩億以上的它要公開發行那很多未廣業者其實它的規模其實是跟有限電視業者比較是小很多"},{"start":4088.959,"end":4100.25,"text":"那我會覺得這樣子都是比較不一樣是覺得比較不適合來直接採用那另外這個這個民進黨版本第四項這個自播新聞這個範圍又多出來一個像"},{"start":4104.714,"end":4124.703,"text":"有些頻道他不是以不像剛剛第二條那個是專以新聞或者採取新聞為他是偶爾自播的那個也要掃進來也要試用的話感覺上是會比較要還要再考慮像大愛或人間他偶爾也會播放新聞那他也要試用的話感覺上這個是比較還要再考慮的好 那"},{"start":4131.98,"end":4151.188,"text":"好 那如果說這樣的話 沒有其他委員還有其他想法 那這一條我看目前是沒有共識那我們就先保留好再來第5條第9 第8頁第9頁第5條來 那行政部門要不要先說明"},{"start":4152.748,"end":4181.249,"text":"是 黨政軍條款是大家都支持說他不得介入經營媒體那現在就這順序來看陳雪森委員所提的這一部分那因為他有像他第二項第三項那邊都有排除這個政府基金或國營事業應投資而持有的股數不在此限那我們認為說大公司這個如果他間接投資不管是個別的還是合計的"},{"start":4181.989,"end":4209.554,"text":"超過這邊陳雪仙委員是提10%那大公司的話其實5%很多5%很多上市的公司5%或怎麼樣其實就已經擔任董監事或經理人所以我們認為這一塊是有疑慮的我們建議說這邊可能還要再思考再考慮看看好 提案的委員那就保留吧算是保留"},{"start":4210.778,"end":4211.92,"text":"麥克風看一下"},{"start":4233.423,"end":4258.093,"text":"這版本提出來以後這個外界還有很多聲音這個反映到我們各個委員裡面來我想我們就保留好不好這個案子先保留這個案子好保留那我想因為來蔡委員要發說明嗎我簡單就好了學生都說保留了其實是應該保留啦"},{"start":4258.874,"end":4275.746,"text":"因為這個各界其實不只這一條其實很多條各界都有其他的聲音邏輯上主席應該是要開個公聽會但沒關係我本席建議你可以考慮看看開個公聽會聽聽看各界意見那主要是這樣你提10%這個隨便翻一翻上市公司的"},{"start":4276.627,"end":4298.78,"text":"的持股比例你就可以知道當任董事長的很多連10%都不到35%的甚至金控低到%數很少就在當董事長了所以說這個真的需要社會各界來討論因為看起來學生的版本裡面他還是覺得黨政軍其實是不宜介入如果黨政軍要介入的話我們就不需要這些限制"},{"start":4299.56,"end":4328.519,"text":"所以這個限制如果沒有一定程度的嚴格就本席在巡打的時候講過我認為那個像基本幾張的投資包括委員在內可能在黑板上買了幾張股票他就算黨政軍介入那這個其實的確是有討論的空間但是社會對於黨政軍介入還是不宜本席也覺得不宜所以這個要列多少叫做"},{"start":4329.6,"end":4355.055,"text":"可以容許這個我是覺得應該要再討論一下10%是絕對太多啦1%都太多了我覺得1%都太多了沒關係 這個可以大家再討論所以我同意學生講的就是說先把它保留好 來 許志傑委員謝謝主席 大家好以前曾經有個案例以前曾經有個案例就還不是1%是1張啦"},{"start":4357.659,"end":4379.656,"text":"很久以前就一張就被說你這個是破壞黨政軍原則所以那個好像後來好像有到法院就是那個是以前的案例所以你說完全沒有其實很難杜絕這個剛剛其上委員提到的是這樣但是坦白講我是覺得"},{"start":4381.678,"end":4388.853,"text":"其實一趴我是可以接受的啦一趴其實是要不然就說你不是跳槓的"},{"start":4391.114,"end":4409.875,"text":"但是現在上市公司有很多可能3%的他就可以當董事長了所以的確10%我也是覺得太高了所以是大家可以考量一下我個人的見解是1%的謝謝李君子委員好 謝謝趙偉有關於比例多少我想是要經過更嚴謹的一個討論"},{"start":4412.017,"end":4434.66,"text":"另外我要請教NCC就是有關於這個黨政軍條款除了是在衛星廣播電視法裡面有規定之外其實廣播電視法跟有線廣播電視法也有相同的規範那這個廣電商法要不要一致性的處理請NCC來說明一下"},{"start":4435.316,"end":4449.29,"text":"是 没错 广电善法 微广法有广法 无广法都有规范当中的条款这边动了那边也要相应的动否则上监理事务上是会有自来难寻"},{"start":4452.099,"end":4475.034,"text":"好那這樣子因為本席也希望說不要我們剛剛其實幾個委員都講到就是說其實重點在於是這個比例的問題也許現在的狀況大家會覺得說太過於嚴苛就變成是完全沒有任何容錯空間但是要有放寬要放寬到多少說1% 3% 10%我覺得這也不是蔡奇亞在話給"},{"start":4475.854,"end":4498.185,"text":"所以本來本期是期待是NCC應該要提出來行政部門應該要提出來是說到底實務上來講90%或百分之多少是可以沒有影響到這個實際的一個狀況但是又可以避免誤殺的一個這個樣態跟比例可是目前很顯然可能我們行政部門到今天也沒有這樣的一個數據那"},{"start":4500.606,"end":4524.613,"text":"我請示一下大家那現在是因為還有連帶的幾個法令一個是我們保留就一併如同剛剛前幾條一併送出委員會到草野協商的時候去做協商但是如果要這樣的話我就會要求NCC是不是要在這個中間冷凍期的時候你們也要去有一個研究至少說你們認為合理的放寬要到什麼程度"},{"start":4525.578,"end":4543.209,"text":"那未來也可以做其他的一個修法參考那還是你們堅持說就不放寬我覺得這個就是要在朝野選上的時候一定要有很明確NCC的一個態度那另外一個是我們保留但是另外這一條因為它是單條條文則其處理"},{"start":4545.77,"end":4571.857,"text":"我想這有兩個做法那我也請示一下今天在場的委員大家認為說怎麼樣的一個做法會覺得比較妥適來 國城委員然後再許智杰委員那個剛剛因為陳雪生委員他認為要保留了嘛因為我還是建議剛才主席所裁定的這些建言陳代主委可能要帶回去包括祖密你們都要去研究一下"},{"start":4572.864,"end":4592.783,"text":"因為任何一個保留的法案一定有正反雙方或自愛然行或者有談論的空間所以我還是建議你們任何一個保留案不是說走個程序而是主管機關就主席所裁定的要有態度"},{"start":4593.624,"end":4609.952,"text":"那態度提供給三黨去做參考最後他政黨去做最後的決定所以不能講說我們認為要保留你們認為堅持要保留或者堅持要不動不休那你們總是也要有一個理由讓我們了解"},{"start":4610.552,"end":4637.444,"text":"不要說到了那個政黨協商又是三黨裡面在那邊吵吵鬧鬧最後還沒有結論主管機關還是要有態度所以我建議每一個保留的案子你們要有態度要修不修 修的那個弧度有多大這個主管機關要提供給我們做參訟不要每一次送出委員會到最後又冷凍期完了以後就是表決"},{"start":4638.544,"end":4657.956,"text":"所以這些東西才是真正解決問題所以我建議陳主委跟祖密這裡可能要去注意這些好 謝謝徐志杰委員其實我也是贊成保留啦就是剛剛崑哲委員也提到還有其他的法跟這個有相關那不是單獨 這個應該要一併考量好 謝謝"},{"start":4661.036,"end":4681.119,"text":"來 各位委員抱歉我剛剛講保留我們大家都講保留但保留有兩個途徑一個是如同我們剛剛講的就跟第四條一樣保留但我們送出委員會那冷凍期但是我就說要求會行政部門冷凍期這中間要提出態度那在草野寫上的時候行政部門一定要表達明確的你們研究過後的"},{"start":4682.12,"end":4706.311,"text":"比例到底是說可以放寬到什麼樣的一個比例是符合大多數社會90%以上的一個常態但是又不會說跟我們之前開宗民意立法黨政軍條款這邊有違背這是一個那或者說你們認為是說不應該修但是在朝野協商的時候也要表達明確表達可是另外一個部分是因為剛剛我們李昆哲委員有講到是說其實除了"},{"start":4707.391,"end":4726.818,"text":"衛廣法還有有廣法還有我們另外的無廣法也因此這個都連動的還是說等其他的條文的時候一併再處理那就變成是我們留在委員會另期處理我現在想說保留大家保留的保留是要保留怎麼樣"},{"start":4727.998,"end":4755.247,"text":"那這個就要由委員這邊來來其實你這個保留我是講保留啦你到政黨協商一樣開花嘛扣得了嗎所以你NCC你要看是不是故意的你知道嗎是故意的人家不小心的嘛我投資大眾了嗎我倒楣喔我怎麼曉得對不對你這樣弄一下沒有道理你要有一個立場你知道嗎"},{"start":4756.348,"end":4778.495,"text":"你217沒有立場你叫你們三黨這邊去你開公立會你開嘛我不相信你這樣講的話這個案可以過我們今天今天我們同意民進黨也不同意啊他會讓你過嗎我不相信是不是跟人多人少沒有關係大家講個道理"},{"start":4781.3,"end":4805.93,"text":"對不對 那人多來表決啊那表決讓他來過不是 我是說那個NCC你要拿這個態度我同意你的講法啦 我同意啦你講什麼 這個我都同意嘛那個NCC真的要要有一些建議啦這個沒關係啦 你現在其實本席覺得最好的方式還是應該聽聽財經專家 法律專家的意見啦社會各界開個公聽會這是最好上選之案"},{"start":4806.73,"end":4825.844,"text":"那如果主席不願意做這個事情第二好的案子就是NCC提供一些建議啦畢竟你們有行政能力嘛所以第二個好的方案就是你提供一些未來修法的建議讓委員參考啦到底幾%或者是其他文字要怎麼修正也可以想一想啦 好不好好 感謝來 NCC是不是再說明一下賴主委再講一下你們的建議會是怎麼樣"},{"start":4834.77,"end":4863.707,"text":"是跟主席報告我們其實NCC在106年就有提出一個版本在交友會討論那後續也有滾動式的一些在演繹所以我們手上是有一些七個委員時代都還在的一些看法保留送協商對不對你協商的還是這一票人啊"},{"start":4865.526,"end":4876.656,"text":"是不是啊 你協商到最後還是這一票人啊你說鄧協商不要去嗎那也可以啊 你協商之前就保留收協商"},{"start":4888.749,"end":4912.796,"text":"老大我特別跟你說明現在主席的意思主席的意思尊重提案委員確確實實在這個部分行政部門還未表態到底要放的程度是什麼所以就要看你提案委員你認為要送政黨協商那原則性保留也是送出去協商一個就是留在委員會"},{"start":4915.937,"end":4922.048,"text":"你的意思是要留在這裡找一些學者專家聽聽他們的意見"},{"start":4927.381,"end":4956.506,"text":"沒有啦之前 對也跟這個在場委員報告其實因為這一個修法的版本是第一會期就已經送進來那我印象中我們交通委員會在第二會期 第三會期其實已經有做過類似的公聽會那我現在只是說確定因為NCC現在立場其實也很清楚但是我們剛剛也有講過就是說如果說要修法的話邀請NCC要送出委員會朝野協商的時候我不希望變成是到最後1% 3% 10% 搭平感覺"},{"start":4957.426,"end":4973.139,"text":"不應該是這樣所以我才會說如果要送出委員會那在一個月冷凍期之間我要要求NCC主管機關應該要去做充分的研議到底放寬的比例可以到多少給我們在不管是之後"},{"start":4974.281,"end":5003.008,"text":"我召集的這個草野協商或是院長召集草野協商都需要有這個數據來去做佐證來支持修法與否那如果沒有因為現在我們剛剛也講到就是還有有廣法跟另外無廣法都有類似的條文也因此今天如果只修未廣法出去但其他沒有的話那就變成是說可能會沒有一致的狀況也因此另外一部分是不是保留留在委員會另期處理那再等"},{"start":5004.248,"end":5026.719,"text":"排案把油光法等等一起排案到時候可能就針對這個部分再排修法我想這兩個部分比較明確所以我尊重提案委員或是我們還有沒有其他委員有比較明確的想法恩熙你現在有沒有一個底嘛有底你就講出來嘛我們這裡通過就過了嘛是不是"},{"start":5027.679,"end":5045.956,"text":"我們也沒有很一定要怎樣啊你不一定是按照比例嘛你用文字上怎麼樣能夠把這件事情帶過去來 學生委員然後之後翁小玲委員那我們這一次發文完那再請這個主委講那我們可能就要做一個決定好不好 謝謝"},{"start":5046.65,"end":5070.664,"text":"好我想這個之前我在當NCC委員的時候其實就針對第5條有這個NCC內部有很多討論有提出相關的修正版本當時就對於所謂的間接控制那間接控制的持股數到底是要定在5%或3%等等的就有一些不同的意見主要是依照我們現在的證券應該是證券什麼公開發行法就是大概5%以上的"},{"start":5072.645,"end":5092.489,"text":"這個持股是要揭露的吧現在的證券公司證券的什麼股份公司的那個法律有沒有修改我有點忘記但是我記得當時是說5%以上的大股東叫這個揭露那麼所以如果說從這個角度來講的話是不是5%以下的話可以不用揭露因為它不代表說它不太會有實質的主導權控制權"},{"start":5096.17,"end":5116.329,"text":"那當然講到這個問題也會有別人有不同的意見會認為說像當時民視的董事長那個前董事長叫蔡蔡什麼的就是他後來他就辭任董事長蔡同榮對他當時後來就辭掉了這個民視董事長他一股也沒有"},{"start":5117.35,"end":5139.96,"text":"但是他仍然可以去控制民事所以這個問題基本上已經討論很久了那今天就是說這個黨政軍條文NCC有沒有決心要修嘛如果有決心要修如果剩下只是說這個間接持股數的部分的話如果10%過高那就是壓在5%或3%我覺得可能都是屬於比較合理的狀態因為德國的部分好像是他是壓在3%吧還是1.5%"},{"start":5143.442,"end":5160.909,"text":"就是德國對於這個間接持股黨政軍持股的部分他好像是控制在1.5%還有3%所以這個部分的話我會建議要不然就出委員會那麼到時候再來討論好還有沒有其他委員有其他的意見好來NCC代主委請回應"},{"start":5162.954,"end":5180.961,"text":"確實如翁委員所提的NG內部討論過多次的版本我們手上是有一些多次 例次的討論版本那確實如翁委員所提到的參考國外還有國內其他相關的一些法規的就是百分之十是太高了好"},{"start":5190.755,"end":5194.253,"text":"因為這樣子就是要"},{"start":5196.929,"end":5223.255,"text":"我還是覺得因為這個條文因為上一次我們那個版本其實不是只有一條這個修正案而且後面還有很多類似像實質控制這樣一些條文其實也都沒有進去了那確實是在有光法跟無光法這部分怎麼樣去衡量它的這個比例不足以造成控制這實際上是要經過比較審慎的考量所以我還是建議就是說盡量能夠有比較完整的版本再來討論會比較好"},{"start":5231.16,"end":5252.188,"text":"來這樣子我徵求在場委員同意那要求我們今天就保留那如同剛剛翁小龍委員以及我們結尾委員所講那就保留送出委員會那但是在這一個月如果說假設後續那個有召開朝野協商那我要求是NCC身為主管機關要負起責任找金管會找相關單位來做"},{"start":5254.469,"end":5280.157,"text":"討論那至少在之後朝野協商的時候必須要提出相對應的版本以及可能文字你們內部討論過後更嚴謹的文字以符合現實的一個狀況好嗎好那第5條我們保留再來第10條就是第15頁第10條"},{"start":5285.29,"end":5310.832,"text":"好我們請NCC來說明好那第四條這邊溫委員提示這個申請換照的審查的期限大概是他就是新增第三項就是三加三就三個月要完成審查必要時再延長三個月那行政機關的看法基本上是因為申請的部分因為前置的程序"},{"start":5311.292,"end":5333.715,"text":"要通常經過刑事審查專家諮詢會議的審查還有委員會議等等甚至有些業者他提的資料不足我們要求他補件那我們會建議說維持現行現行是6加6 6個月加6個月我們建議是維持現行條文規定好 提案委員有沒有要說明"},{"start":5345.225,"end":5372.891,"text":"好 我這邊好 本席當時提出這個條文修正案的最重要的原因也是因為就NCC它在過去一些申涉案的部分審查時間過於緩慢而且也沒有一個明確的一個申涉的這個最後做決定的時間所以導致很多的申涉案會拖到一年甚至更久的時間這個其實已經也不符合行政程序法的相關的規定了因此本席在這裡提出這個修正案不過對於就是"},{"start":5374.331,"end":5397.172,"text":"主委還有當時我記得之前在做報告的時候有講到實務作業上面的困難確實時間上面或許可以做一些調整但是呢本席認為說還是要明確定個時間不能夠讓因為行政作業的緩慢或怠惰以至於拖累深色業者的權利這是本席所不贊同的"},{"start":5399.767,"end":5419.847,"text":"好 李坤哲委員謝謝召委有關於董事監察人以及這些實收資本額的變更如果是涉及間接的投資以及海外投資的這些查調他的時間如果修正之後只給予兩個月再加兩個月的審查時間"},{"start":5421.188,"end":5436.542,"text":"其實在實務操作上是顯然不足我想這個NCC要說明一下相關所需的程序時間以及查調的這樣的一個過程簡單說明一下"},{"start":5439.19,"end":5457.984,"text":"是 李委員有提到的主要涉及到第15條 營運計畫變更的部分那邊2加2是更嚴苛所以我們覺得2加2事務上操作是更有自來難行所以營運計畫的變更就是第15條部分我們是建議維持現行是3加3第10條我們先討論第10條是"},{"start":5466.502,"end":5491.871,"text":"好那第10條的部分呢第10條原本是沒有時間嘛公務員是增加變成是三個月內審查完必必要延長三個月嘛對啊實務上是在我們有內規有各類申請案的處理時間還有剛剛公務員所提到的情形程序法律的規定那如果說要明文在這邊我們也尊重"},{"start":5492.951,"end":5519.158,"text":"所以你們也尊重嘛予以尊重所以你們基本上可以接受嘛就因為我們完全按照行政程序法的規定對不對對啊 是太短了來 那實務上咧你過去到現在有多少是三個月內可以審查完畢有多少是3加3所以我們說3加3不可行主席 是我覺得那個既然主管機關覺得有點困難我剛剛跟翁曉雯討論那我們就保留送協商好了 對"},{"start":5521.587,"end":5541.924,"text":"好那在上委員有沒有意見那我也拜託還是一樣NCC在如果說之後有協商的時候你們應該依照現實的狀況要提出事實的說明好不好好那這樣子我們第10條就保留送協商那另外第11條1717頁第11條來"},{"start":5551.48,"end":5564.393,"text":"還有一個修正動議來 羅委員要不要說明一下"},{"start":5566.67,"end":5586.304,"text":"我提的修正動議其實主要就是把這個衛星廣播電視業者他的那個執照從6年變成是9年他其實是跟拉奇跟這個廣播電視法跟有限廣播電視法規範一樣都是把它變成一致都是9年以上"},{"start":5587.028,"end":5605.556,"text":"那那個本來修正本來原來的那個執照永久這部分的話修正都已經把它拿掉所以是就是改成6年變9年以上好來NCC那這部分我們原來就建議說就是垃圾所以就是都尊重就樓源的修正最新修正"},{"start":5606.345,"end":5621.466,"text":"好 所以現在是6年那9年的是現行9年的是什麼9年是有電電視跟無線廣播就是無廣的就是台視中視OK 所以就把有廣無廣一起拉齊就變9年就對了"},{"start":5624.386,"end":5653.389,"text":"NCCNCC沒有意見沒有意見好 其他相關的委員好 那如果沒有意見的話我稍微講一下好了其實本席當時提出來是說從六年延長到多一年變成七年但是因為剛剛看到就是盧委員的提案然後NCC竟然都同意就延長九年那我也支持就延長到九年只是說之後再憑鑑換照的相關的規定會不會有所影響"},{"start":5654.42,"end":5679.422,"text":"因為就兩次評鑑嘛就也不會有什麼影響就是評鑑的當年從以前的期中考現在變成是第三次評鑑就是變成跟換照一樣好 OK好本來以前是期中期末考那現在變兩次斷考好好那這樣第11條我們就依照委員羅志強等四人所提出的修正動議通過"},{"start":5684.349,"end":5691.948,"text":"好 再來第12條之一在第18、19頁NCC要不要先做說明"},{"start":5692.951,"end":5719.028,"text":"那這邊因為這邊民進黨團所提的是主要是這個財務上的一些資訊的揭露那如果前面第二條已經把範圍已經限縮到新聞及財經新聞的話那這邊我們會建議說還是建議保留因為這個外界還是有很多的意見來 林委員"},{"start":5721.963,"end":5734.732,"text":"我想特別要提醒NCC主管機關其實所有委員所提案的東西都不是在搞砸都是要你們嚴謹監督所有媒體"},{"start":5735.72,"end":5755.078,"text":"所以你們不要看到這些他們有意見那立法委員認為有需要所以這個部分你要兩者之間的平衡點要去把它抓出來這是我們一向我在交通裡面我依這樣非常請這個NCC要去做到這一點"},{"start":5755.758,"end":5776.919,"text":"不要什麼東西就不修什麼東西因為這裡面的話就是很簡單對於正正當當正派經營的媒體沒有審視什麼東西啊他沒有見不得人的他財務公開有什麼關係那至於說公開的幅度是不是依照我們要求這麼細"},{"start":5778.3,"end":5793.713,"text":"那可以談但是財務監督是非常重要的所有問題都是財務舉例 有些委託案這家媒體多那家媒體完全沒有這些是失調平衡的"},{"start":5794.153,"end":5818.785,"text":"那如果正正當當他怕把財務公開有什麼怕所以我們本黨所提出這些也是要促進讓NCC在這個部分依法有據的這些財務公開以及管理的制度透明化達到媒體正派經營的目的我們提這個案主要是這樣"},{"start":5821.155,"end":5827.813,"text":"好那所以林國生委員也接受NCC建議保留好"},{"start":5829.65,"end":5851.396,"text":"好如果沒有其他委員意見那我們這一條也保留那在第15條不好意思剛剛那個跟主席先回到我們剛剛第11條有一個小小的問題想請ACC這邊回答一下就是因為我們如果說這次的未廣的執照修正為9年之後那這個部分的話是從我們法令公佈"},{"start":5852.898,"end":5867.865,"text":"公布之後立刻實施那原來的就是就現在既有的頻道的執照的時間就是自動往後延9年自動往後延3年我們這個要確定喔要確定在法律上解釋上應該不會有問題吧"},{"start":5870.862,"end":5873.665,"text":"我們NCC的官員來說明一下你就回答一下翁小林委員的問題"},{"start":5889.36,"end":5905.863,"text":"原來的本來是六年然後他自動再延長三年等於是六加三就是所以不需要重新他依照我們之前在五廣的做法他就是再來換一張新的執照然後延長給他多加三年"},{"start":5922.437,"end":5934.224,"text":"我覺得這個問題很重要因為如果說是我們在法律上面沒有辦法就是做到就是說就既有現在譬如說他已經拿了直到5年了那他是不是之後可以繼續再延長4年"},{"start":5936.065,"end":5957.783,"text":"跟委員報告就是兩個部分吳廣法部分以往是從6年延長9年的時候你操作過一次的他沒有在他的母法裡頭去明文說他怎麼處理但是以後廣法那邊有明文處理所以我們是說如果立法經濟來看如果這邊沒有特別明文因為在吳廣法曾經操作過也不是問題所以你們當時是修什麼修規則嗎 修法規命令嗎"},{"start":5962.128,"end":5989.96,"text":"好那如果這樣的話我希望也能夠列為就是通過第11條條文的一個類似一個附帶決議就是說是現在的衛光的執照他們會自動延長到9年對其實好來我說明一下因為我剛看了一下這個修正條文其實應該感謝翁委員然後但應該比較沒有這個附帶決議必要因為他就是有效期限變9年那就"},{"start":5991.22,"end":6016.137,"text":"現有的有效期限是六年他就變成有效期限九年所以說他等於是他就已經因為我們每一次算都是起照日拿到之後他有效期六年變九年嘛所以說他其實已經在這邊就講很清楚說他現在手上那個執照就是有效期限是九年的執照啦可是我認為還是有做的必要因為我們講說法律是從公佈之後開始實施"},{"start":6018.092,"end":6041.327,"text":"所以如果說是嚴格解釋來講的話就變成講說他是未來新生社的人他拿的執照或是等到他之前的六年的執照執照到期換照的時候他才開始拿新的執照九年對 為了避免就是之後呢主管機關又有萬一啦這個可能又有新聞員有不同的想法有不同解釋的時候所以我希望能夠做一個附帶決議"},{"start":6042.315,"end":6066.661,"text":"好那這樣子是不是在我們說明欄裡面來請NCC針對這個剛剛您發言的這個精神跟概念把它給詳細說明寫進說明欄裡面好好那這樣子我們是不是請同仁NCC同仁可以現在來書面把它給你出來或是說您用"},{"start":6067.799,"end":6091.454,"text":"你先念然後之後我們把它寫在說明欄裡面好不好我們是不是可以參考參考有廣告法的寫法那我們就是說本法在中華民國施行之日人為有效之營運執照許可其有效期間為至原合法日起算九年好那這樣這個文字把它給"},{"start":6093.34,"end":6109.066,"text":"寫出來然後我們就放在這一條第11條修正的說明欄好不好可以嗎來那這樣請NC再提供好那我們是不是再往下好不好好12條之1保留那15條第19頁15條2加2"},{"start":6119.198,"end":6142.91,"text":"行政部門NC這邊就是因為剛剛營運計畫變更常常是涉及到它是否間接投資或者說它資本變更或者海外投資的情況那這種情況的資料的收集其實是蠻花時間的那如果修正後只是2加2的話顯然實務上操作會比較不足我們建議維持現行3加3好 我們請天安委員"},{"start":6151.809,"end":6173.282,"text":"我仍然是說為什麼我會提這個修正就是因為之前NCC真的在很多的營運事項處理的部分審查太慢了你審查太慢然後一個簡單的事情可以拖那麼久就讓很多的業者都認為說這已經影響到他們的權益了"},{"start":6174.755,"end":6201.815,"text":"那麼當然如果說在食物上面真的有困難的話是不是在延長的時候就是延長兩個月了3加2對就3加2對啊至少表達一下就是對於其實主管機關因為有些都是比較簡單的事情應該是一般的樣態百分之譬如說大多數的這個審查有沒有用到2加2有用到第二個2嗎"},{"start":6204.255,"end":6227.911,"text":"大部分應該是正常情況都會很快但是因為有些涉及到海外投資或間接投資那些要釐清這些東西都拖很久那另外也跟委員報告行政程序法它是一致的規範說德以一次為限那德其實比較前面前面是3後面的再加東西就是3沒有說前面3後面2這樣我們會建議一致性會比較好"},{"start":6229.882,"end":6252.052,"text":"那這樣好了啦我也不太不這麼堅持一定要延長兩個月喔那我建議就是說修正文字改成英語就是使得辦理設立或變更主管機關英語三個月內完成變更必要時以一次延長為限好不好就變成3加3但是只能夠一次你們不能一直得下去就是也好幾次"},{"start":6255.134,"end":6264.805,"text":"好吧要不然就是我就3加3就3加3好吧就把它寫死就最多就是6個月對因為你們現在呢變得有很多材料空間嘛"},{"start":6266.699,"end":6294.896,"text":"補正啦 補正資料啦3加3 OK好 那其他委員有沒有意見我想這個如果說NCC的實務經驗上面來講是符合那就是以我們第15條主管機關應於三個月內完成變更設立登記事項之審查句號必要時得延長三個月並以一次為限"},{"start":6297.028,"end":6308.533,"text":"NCC可以接受嗎可以好那我們就照翁小玲委員第15條就照翁小玲委員等26人提案修正通過再來第17條在第20頁"},{"start":6315.344,"end":6330.941,"text":"也有修正動議好那我們是不是NCC先說明一下是那實際上是關於評鑑的部分評鑑的部分羅委員有提要如果評鑑不合格要提這個輔助改善那還有這個"},{"start":6332.102,"end":6360.042,"text":"第四新增了第四項招註銷的未管執照在書院行政訴訟判決確定前執照繼續有效跟第五項本條修正通過效力溯及既往適用徵証中的案件我們主要的意見是認為說現行的行政訴訟法的相關規定其實都有一些相關的救濟定狀態或者假處分的一些處理我們認為"},{"start":6362.203,"end":6374.818,"text":"現行機制已經可以處理所以我們是建議這一部分就是能夠維持現行條文好各位我還是必須強調"},{"start":6377.039,"end":6398.768,"text":"這個條文跟後面包括說翁委員或是我們其他的一些關於修正的建議就是要提醒NCC新聞自由是憲政層次的自由新聞自由也是被譽為第四權對我們國家防腐監督至關緊要但NCC我必須講很遺憾的"},{"start":6399.921,"end":6416.282,"text":"當你們做出一個對於新聞台關閉的這個決定的時候不管是用什麼方式來關閉那你都必須要給自己最高最高最嚴格的標準所以因此它不是等同於其他的行政處分"},{"start":6417.594,"end":6443.542,"text":"那這個部分很簡單就告訴你說今天你在下決定的時候你就要知道你要有十足十的把握在所有行政的訴訟徵訟過程當中你會一路勝利你到最後法官會法院會支持你如果法院終極判決判決支持NCC的決定的話這個條文就沒有任何意義了但是今天如果你NCC你自己立場不穩大家先講好所有的回復原狀"},{"start":6444.946,"end":6471.218,"text":"他都是在法院確定判決是NCC敗訴之後才有所謂回復原狀所以這個條文是對於新聞自由捍衛我覺得是非常堅定的一個原則所以本席認為我們還是要繼續來去確保我們的新聞自由不受到行政權的一個不當的干涉跟輕率的干涉 以上好 還有我們其他委員有不同意見"},{"start":6474.83,"end":6496.369,"text":"那如果 來 主委我這邊 容我這邊再補充一下因為現行的規定其實就是在由法院來決定那法院其實他能夠在個案上實現公平正義終審之前輸的一方其實還是有抗告救濟的途徑比較能夠符合"},{"start":6497.109,"end":6523.603,"text":"個案的正義那目前這個草案比較看不到平衡行政機關就是NCC跟業者間的一些權利這個相對是有一點傾斜那我們希望還是能夠保有這個司法救濟的機會特別是行政機關也要司法救濟的機會那大概是這樣好如果這一條沒有辦法取得共識那我們是不是就保留好"},{"start":6528.777,"end":6539.203,"text":"好那第17條保留那再來第那我的第10就是整個第17條一筆一起保留好的是好那在第18條來我們請主管機關"},{"start":6545.496,"end":6568.606,"text":"18條這邊的重點是文委員所提的第三項這邊符合下面的情況之下 換照時不得駁回我們的看法是這些不得駁回的條件很多都是在琢磨在過去的表現 業者過去的表現可是以18條前面的規定"},{"start":6569.586,"end":6596.462,"text":"換照不僅僅是看過去也要看未來6年的一些規劃所以如果只注重過去那這邊可能會讓業者這個未來的部分的規劃這邊是相對適合那我們是認為這個如果說打個比方好了那如果他過去他是相對符合是不得不回的情況可是他未來的規劃那邊他寫的就"},{"start":6597.803,"end":6618.26,"text":"比較沒那麼嚴謹假設說他血刷本國自治率要多少多少可是都沒有達到那又造成下一輪回平靜或換照的困擾所以我們建議說這邊的部分其實我是建議說這邊可以維持現行條文的機制就可以處理了就是平衡未來跟過去的表現一起都是一起來看待來 提案委員"},{"start":6624.029,"end":6636.166,"text":"我這條的這個當初提案的意思是希望說能夠就是給這些業者們就是等於說是降低"},{"start":6637.964,"end":6657.795,"text":"主管機關NCC的管制密度啦然後呢對於就是過去表現良好的或是沒有真的是觸犯太嚴重的這個情況違法被處罰太嚴重的情況就直接可以給他就換照那但是看起來NCC有意見 既然有意見的話那麼我們就送保留就是保留送協商其他委員有沒有意見"},{"start":6667.122,"end":6676.453,"text":"其實NCC你這一個部分你剛剛講是說過去跟過去跟未來換句話說不僅看過去表現也要看他未來的規劃"},{"start":6677.87,"end":6707.55,"text":"未來下一個指導期間的規劃完全限制在只要沒有這兩種狀況通通都換照那這兩種狀況還包含到他至少可以罰六次罰到五百萬可是罰到五百萬對我們來說一個電視台被罰到五百萬其實已經是素行不良才會到這種程度所以用這樣的標準來要求他就可以換照這種那幾乎就整個省照制度大概就廢掉了"},{"start":6714.372,"end":6726.075,"text":"主民跟主委我特別要提醒你們不要因為考慮到這五百萬的問題這個到底是三百萬 兩百萬 五百萬這個可以討論可是這整個架構裡面當然這是一個監督的機制"},{"start":6732.276,"end":6761.037,"text":"也就是依法有紀有法令有法作為依紀的東西那這個部分我還是建議如果雖然是送政黨協商但是你們還是要有態度的你們還是要有態度這個我要再度提醒到現在為止每一件事情NCC都好像說都不修 不修這個頭腦心態不是一個做主管機關應有的態度我特別要提醒一下"},{"start":6762.674,"end":6777.504,"text":"是那謝謝林委員的指教就是我剛剛有特別跟各位委員報告就是換照本身是要看過去表現其實未廣化是看過去2.5年因為他提出換照要提前半年"},{"start":6778.024,"end":6801.582,"text":"跟未來現在已經改成9年未來9年的規劃所以應該是過去的表現跟未來的規劃要一併審酌那到目前這邊他新政第三項說過去表現符合某些條件之下就是就直接開綠燈給他這個我們是覺得有點失衡對未來的規劃那一塊好像就是相對比較失衡"},{"start":6803.072,"end":6824.393,"text":"好 那這樣子如果沒有其他委員還有意見的話那這條一樣保留那但是我一樣要求就如同剛剛林國成委員所說那是不是NCC針對這個部分因為委員提案其實它的立法精神也有可取之處那就NCC應在依照實務上怎麼樣的一個"},{"start":6826.275,"end":6853.497,"text":"施行能夠兼顧過去的表現以及未來的監管來去做一個比較綜合的一個辦理那請NCC這邊也要提出您相對應的版本好再來第19條有我們羅志強委員 翁小龍委員及修正動議那在第24 25頁那我們先請主管機關說明"},{"start":6854.531,"end":6874.66,"text":"是19條主要是針對說前條前條就18條就是換照的規定部分如果他業者 衛港業者如果營運不善的話要那Lowell那版本是說要提出改善然後後面倒數第三項就是新增第三項就是救濟期間或者行政訴訟確定前"},{"start":6875.42,"end":6897.302,"text":"申請人的執照繼續有效跟最後一項本條修正規劃都是效率受敵計劃這一塊我們還是認為說跟前面第17條的看法一樣我們認為說還是依由司法來做個案上最終的一些審查來決定這樣子對警政機關也好對業者也好的互動"},{"start":6898.943,"end":6922.309,"text":"相對是比較平衡一點那本來就是行政訴訟法會有相關的進行機制處理那我建議這邊還是維持現行條文那至於文委員所提到臨時執照這一塊那因為現在有臨時執照的是油管法那這邊未管的話是相對是沒有為什麼會沒有因為油管他的是有跟收視"},{"start":6923.229,"end":6937.123,"text":"收拾大眾去收取費用那影響層面是相當的是相對比較大那這邊我們是認為說這邊是現行條文也一樣可以去處理以上補充好來天安委員有沒有說明"},{"start":6940.157,"end":6958.935,"text":"其實剛剛在那個評鑑那一條我已經說過了事實上也是要NCC自己想清楚新聞自由是憲政層次的問題你們不要做輕率的決定但你做決定就要為自己決定負責所以為什麼需要回復原狀這些自由也包括說臨時執照也是各種設計其實都要防範所以NCC"},{"start":6962.358,"end":6990.172,"text":"今天擴大濫用自己的行政權傷害憲政上的新聞自由所以我們本席還是認為這個條文有修正的必要我的意見跟羅委員一樣雖然說內容沒有那麼相近但是我認為還是要保障業者的權利那麼有鑑於就是說先前的幾個條文這就是連貫性的那些都有意見然後那不如乾脆這條我們也就直接保留送委員會"},{"start":6992.273,"end":6995.635,"text":"好那18 19條是連動啦那我們這樣第19條也保留好來那再來第20條第26 27頁20條行政部門"},{"start":7010.063,"end":7038.174,"text":"是 二十條是關於這個衛管升評換照的諮詢會議的相關的資訊的一些規定那溫委員這邊是提說這個諮詢會議的名單跟記錄都要公開那相關的一些處理方式由NCC來就是訂號然後送給立法院備償那我們是跟各位報告那以過往例子這個"},{"start":7039.514,"end":7062.66,"text":"最主要原因是因為這個資訊委員會的意見是提供NCC委員會議做成決定前的參考意見它是程序的前置是參考是它性質是參考的那如果說在NCC委員會議還沒審或怎麼樣之前就公布公開的話這個是對程序上是覺得是比較不妥"},{"start":7063.14,"end":7088.28,"text":"那另外諮詢委員的名單如果公布的話其實以過往的經驗對這個諮詢委員的這個延攬甚至於說他對意見陳述的一些公正性或者對公開性都造成一些現實困擾那過往被告刑跟相關的法院都有一些處理實務上也有這種情況做諮詢委員因為他意見"},{"start":7089.54,"end":7099.964,"text":"比較不一樣也受到外界的一些施壓那我們建議說這邊可以就是這邊還要再思考建議維持現行條文來 委員 提案委員要不要署名"},{"start":7107.153,"end":7116.116,"text":"我想過去大家都對於這個諮詢會議裡面到底有沒有黑箱作業然後以及到底委員為什麼會這個諮詢會議會做出一些讓人民還有讓這個新聞業者無法接受的這個決議"},{"start":7125.138,"end":7153.704,"text":"所以就這個部分來講本席認為說還是有公開的必要更何況現在諮詢會議它已經是一個法定名文列在衛光法裡面的一個組織這個基本上就像是溯源委員會法規委員會等等的這個行政機關都會公佈所有的溯源委員的名字法規委員會的名字也會公告也會公佈那為什麼諮詢會議委員的名單就不可以公佈會議記錄也不公開那我認為說這個基本上是違反"},{"start":7155.105,"end":7176.903,"text":"政策法律程序以及行政資訊公開的這些相關要件所以我認為應該要修正公開那麼如果說今天諮詢會議他是一個讓人覺得說他參與這樣子的一個會議的審議擔任委員他是一個榮譽的一個職務我想沒有人會反對把他的名字公開"},{"start":7177.643,"end":7195.154,"text":"那麼如果說今天諮詢會議搞到最後就大家都不相信他變成說認為他是不是被就是政治力所操控的一個會議的話那當然未來也不會有委員想要擔任總之就是我認為說這條很重要一定是必須要進行修正好我們在場委員還有沒有其他意見"},{"start":7203.822,"end":7216.027,"text":"如果我說字符記如果真的要公開我們建議起碼timing時間上一定要在委員會議審議通過該當的個案審理完之後才公開這樣會邏輯上會比較適合"},{"start":7220.397,"end":7239.483,"text":"另外是否也可以參考思考有沒有可能比照我們節目廣告諮詢會議的現在在林國成委員的督導之下我們有修說是藉期之後把委員名單公開這樣子邏輯上會比較好"},{"start":7246.505,"end":7267.761,"text":"我記得這一個部分其實在交通委員會也好幾次都有個別委員針對這部分有或多或少質詢過代表其實外界大家也都認為說政府的資訊公開透明這一個部分那另外其實有一些其他部會的諮詢會議的委員名單也確實是有公開"},{"start":7268.782,"end":7285.555,"text":"不管是會議或是結論那不管怎麼樣我想剛剛尊重我們提案委員的一個說明那主委這邊有講到是說如果說是以時間上來講是可以接受那有沒有可能一定要在委員會審完之後再"},{"start":7287.357,"end":7301.128,"text":"不是每次決議對 我理解就是說我們的提案委員也好或者說我記得之前個別委員這邊的質詢也都是希望是公開透明然後還有就是某種程度上也是委員為自己的決議負責"},{"start":7302.589,"end":7331.263,"text":"就如同我們現在直播大家對自己的發言負責官員為自己的發言負責那一樣就是說諮詢會議的委員也對於他們所做出來的一個諮詢意見來某程度上負責那如果說剛剛主委講到是以時間上來講能夠公開的話那有沒有可能在這一條條文裡面增加這個字樣那我們就可以讓他做一個確認有沒有這個空間"},{"start":7333.38,"end":7361.655,"text":"還是都要送到超野學生我怕院長的負擔有點重如果委員同意我們可以改就是公開的時間timing我們是建議在委員會之後公開的範圍我們建議說記錄可以但是委員名單要等到屆期後再公開會不會比較為夷我舉個例子就是說大家很清楚這個環評委員他是在他的性質跟我們不一樣的因為環評委員做出了決定後續的地方政府也好中央政府也好他不能去"},{"start":7362.935,"end":7390.273,"text":"它不能推翻单我们这个是咨询会议是纯粹建议性质委员会议它是参考而已所以我们建议timing一定要在委员会议之后然后名单的部分记录可以公开然后名单我们建议在届期之后公开可以理解咨询会议是做完之后给NCC委员做参考用NCC委员也不一定照单全收但是我们至少会有一个横评性大多数你们是尊重咨询委员因为咨询委员也有其专业"},{"start":7391.013,"end":7416.991,"text":"那我現在講的是說如果說在這一條NCC有沒有版本還是有沒有修正文字的一個方向如果有的話假設提案委員這邊可以接受那是不是請NCC針對提案委員這邊來依照剛剛代理主委講的方向來增減文字那讓提案委員我們在今天勾15全部之前提案委員如果說能夠接受的話我們是不是能夠有一個共識"},{"start":7418.012,"end":7426.666,"text":"我想这样子也是符合委员会的精神就说该细节实质讨论的部分我们尽量在这边就可以有一个实质的讨论"},{"start":7428.53,"end":7457.254,"text":"好不好翁委員這樣可以嗎剛剛他時間其實我覺得這樣也合理就是說一個是整個做完之後因為我們要的是說公開透明以及諮詢委員也要對其發表的意見負責那如果說是在之後來公佈那這樣子還是有達到公佈的一個要求那這樣是不是可以接受我想就請NCE這邊先把你們建議的修正文字先修出來讓我看這樣我覺得比較精準好不好"},{"start":7457.554,"end":7470.605,"text":"好那我们第20条这个就不叫保留叫暂滞暂滞那我们等下最后回来勾输完之后再回来20条好谢谢再来第49条第27页"},{"start":7475.809,"end":7494.689,"text":"來 我們請49條這邊是主要民政黨團所提是針對它是扣合第4條公開發行的一些處理因為公開發行這邊剛剛好像是有保留如果說純粹就這部分我們是建議說維持現行條文"},{"start":7499.153,"end":7526.904,"text":"那另外我看一下另外溫委員所提這個他是扣合黨政權條款的50條這邊刪除那如果黨政權條款的對應的法則刪掉那變成說黨政權條款就變成宣誓性的規定那這邊也要請大家來思考考量就是兩個部分民眾黨團提的是對應第四條的公開發行那溫委員所提的是刪除黨政權條款的法則"},{"start":7532.284,"end":7546.303,"text":"好 來那個我們剛剛第四條因為這個第49條其實是對應第四條那第四條第四項其實是新增是民眾黨新增的提案那但是因為剛剛我們第四條是"},{"start":7547.324,"end":7567.701,"text":"保留所以這一個我是不是就請示我們就不用再討論我們就直接保留好不好因為它是連動的跟12條跟12條之一這是連貫的因為新社已成立才有辦法罰則嘛所以這應該把它連貫保留好 那49條我們就保留好那再來第50條跟第5條有關來 請"},{"start":7575.812,"end":7588.803,"text":"50條就是第5條的罰則那溫委員提示把罰則刪掉我們是建議說因為第5條已經保留了如果說罰則刪掉其實會變成宣誓性條款第5條就變成宣誓性條款"},{"start":7591.075,"end":7608.905,"text":"好那这样既然第50条跟第5条也是联动那第5条保留那这样我们第50条是不是也一并保留我要表达一下我的看法就是第50条为什么本席当时提出要删除去处罚卫星电视台的这个规定"},{"start":7609.505,"end":7613.328,"text":"因為這個第50條本它違反黨政軍條款違反投資的不是這個衛星電視業者不是這些電視台業者可是在我們法律我們長期以來就是有了一個這樣的一個錯誤的處罰結果你罰不到那個投資行為人一直去處罰那個被投資者"},{"start":7629.341,"end":7645.838,"text":"這是極不公平的事情而且在過去長期我們的行政法院都是撤銷NCC所做的處罰處分就認為說這個外星電視台他既沒有故意也沒有過失他是很無奈很無辜被人家直接或間接投資所以處"},{"start":7649.922,"end":7673.146,"text":"刪除處罰規定這個等於是一方面幫NCC解套二方面也是幫這些業者給他們回復正義至於說那個行為人要怎麼去處罰NCC要提出版本你們向來都沒有提案你們也都沒有說積極的去處理那個投資行為人這是行政怠惰"},{"start":7674.741,"end":7682.112,"text":"就是你們不處理處罰同志行為人然後說我們今天如果說把這個處罰電視台業者的條文刪除這是一個不公平這有什麼不公平意思是說配合修正不是只有單純刪除"},{"start":7689.292,"end":7717.91,"text":"所以那你們就積極提出修正啊對你第50條如果刪除你們積極要提出相關的修正動議啊怎麼去處罰那個投資行為人啊都沒有啊已經從NCC成立到現在這個問題已經累積了十幾二十年102年其實就已經提過了我們都有配套的條文當時跟現在手上都有那利用這一次你們就提出修正動議我可以幫你們提啊你們認為說要怎麼去處罰那個投資行為人"},{"start":7719.403,"end":7725.097,"text":"坦白說我覺得這個對所有的業者來講是很不公平的事情類似就是我沒犯錯結果怎麼處罰都是處罰那個沒犯錯的人"},{"start":7729.806,"end":7750.019,"text":"確實 這個翁委員講的確實是一個市場上的一個狀況就是說被投資者他沒有辦法拒絕任何投資不然就可能叫金管會要要求是說哪一些人不能投資他但是目前是沒有這樣的一個狀況可是如果說當他不知名被投資了然後結果因為觸犯黨政軍那反而是"},{"start":7750.819,"end":7762.034,"text":"媒體要承受處罰這也很奇怪這一點確實是相對來講很奇怪而且如果說過去有這些判決也是到最後又撤銷那"},{"start":7763.294,"end":7790.685,"text":"我們第50條因為連動第5條那當然第5條剛剛已經保留但我還是強調因為既然剛剛已經有做成共識大家就是保留的部分那就是要請NCC在這一個就至少一個月因為草野協商有冷凍期一個月那當然後續怎麼樣處理我們尊重院長的一個裁釋但至少說我們要求NCC要盡速來把相對應的條文都能夠再做一個研究"},{"start":7791.385,"end":7817.584,"text":"好嗎沒有問題好那這樣第50條我們保留好那再來第58條之一第29頁來好58條之一是對於民眾黨團所提第12條之一新增12條之一的一些對應的罰則部分因為12條之一是公開揭露部分剛剛林委員也同意就是保留那是不是就變成保留處理"},{"start":7818.632,"end":7827.699,"text":"好那因为它也是连贯配合12条之一的一个增设那这样子我们就予以保留好第64条"},{"start":7831.598,"end":7849.164,"text":"29頁來我們請行政部門 六四調是他那頻道就是地方頻道跟購物頻道因為他過往是沒有拿位廣照現在要拿位廣照因為很多的業者本身具有公開上市的會有黨政軍問題所以這過去也處理過是讓他能夠"},{"start":7849.964,"end":7861.895,"text":"持續來暫時的全一的處理那這邊這個執政黨跟國民黨這邊都有在提案我們是基本上是予以支持尊重"},{"start":7863.359,"end":7889.851,"text":"好 來 徐志杰委員謝謝這一條比較單純因為他那一頻道這本來是因為黨政經驗者所以就一起討論事實上跟他比較不相干所以他每一次時間到了又要再討論一次所以我們這邊這跟孟愷周圍也有提嘛那我們看法應該是一致的就是說他就是延在從公佈日期再延四年以上 謝謝"},{"start":7890.848,"end":7913.843,"text":"好 謝謝那64條我想我們就尊重剛剛NCC委員NCC代理書委也有講到是支持這樣的一個修法方向不過本席除了在提案以外我也再次強調就是說在這一次衛星廣播電視法我們修法的過程裡面也有在想過去有一些成科或者是說有不足之處我們也希望是說透過這一次修法能夠補齊"},{"start":7914.764,"end":7938.762,"text":"那六四條是一個還是一個權宜之計我們還是期待的是在之後朝野協商的時候第五條第五十條等相關的條文都有進一步的依照符合現行的一個社會上來講還是防止黨政軍進入媒體可是我們要一定的一個比例的部分到時要再請NCC提出來"},{"start":7940.103,"end":7951.32,"text":"所以第64條我們就依照委員許智傑等27人以及委員洪孟凱等22人提案通過好那再來第66條之一"},{"start":7956.704,"end":7985.079,"text":"66條之一是汪委員有提新增第三項就是未廣法修正事行前這個原來換照或者被廢止的或被駁回換照處分的行政訴訟終結前尚處於訴訟系屬者得繼續營運那因為這個情況跟17條跟19條這個我剛剛有保留的情況其實一樣我們是建議說也是一樣保留"},{"start":7985.779,"end":8000.377,"text":"好來請提案委員我要再重申我們這次的衛光法的第一條已經通過了捍衛新聞自由這是很重要的一個精神"},{"start":8001.314,"end":8028.884,"text":"如果說今天主管機關任意的如果主管機關今天他駁回或者說他不予換照這對於電視台業者來講都是一個極大的一個權益的損害那麼如果說在法院對於換照訴訟還沒有做成最後確定判決之前就任意的不讓這些業者繼續營運我覺得這個是非常不公平的事情因為"},{"start":8030.204,"end":8050.231,"text":"從中天的案子裡面就可以看到其實法院基本上對於就是到底該辦換照以及NCC當時之所以不給中天換照所據以處分的說他有很多的什麼違法被罰的處分就一一的也都被NCC都被現在法院撤銷所以最好能夠兼顧這個業者"},{"start":8052.95,"end":8069.984,"text":"能夠繼續營運的一個好的方式就是在法院訴訟沒有判決定讞之前仍然要讓業者繼續營運否則這個對於整個電視台的業者還有這麼多的員工以及對於新聞自由來說都是一個很嚴重的侵害好翁委員有沒有其他委員有不同意見來"},{"start":8085.807,"end":8107.003,"text":"謝謝主席我想捍衛新聞自由是大家的一個共識可是新聞自由不能夠無限上綱對於擾亂社會秩序製造假新聞這樣子的一個行為我覺得受到NCC的一個處分我想就是請他們行這個行政程序來做行政救濟"},{"start":8107.984,"end":8127.676,"text":"那如果說在這樣子的一個修法是為特定媒體來修法我覺得這是沒有辦法被社會所接受的所以我覺得說NCC當這個新聞媒體這個廣電媒體的一個監督的獨立機關我想所有的這個媒體都要遵守我們NCC所定的相關的一個規定不能說"},{"start":8129.637,"end":8143.744,"text":"好學生就是這樣子那壞學生還是可以跟好學生一樣我覺得這有什麼公平可言呢所以我希望就是說還是就是這個部分還是維持暫時暫行的現行的條文比較恰當謝謝再請翁委員"},{"start":8146.69,"end":8168.338,"text":"我要講一下本席這次所提出的修法我不是為特定的媒體而修法而是從中天這個案例可以看到NCC是多麼的專斷然後在過去在做出不予換照的處分的過程當中有非常多行政程序不合法或者是它裡面所做成的實質理由基本上有非常大的爭議"},{"start":8169.318,"end":8194.139,"text":"所以如果說今天這個條文通過基本上不是只是為了某一家電視台而是我相信很多的電視台業者基本上都會支持這樣的一個條文修法還有我要講的一個另外一個概念就是剛剛我非常同意前面的委員所說的如果說有電視台他可能製作假新聞的節目或是有違反社會秩序等等的有嚴重的處罰的時候"},{"start":8195.72,"end":8215.562,"text":"NCC應該當下就要停播這個節目而不是說你不停播然後讓它一直播放然後等到幾年之後換照再來一併處理我覺得這也是一個不妥的方式在過去NCC有談到所謂撤換分流"},{"start":8216.443,"end":8240.974,"text":"的这样的一个原则那我认为说其实应该是要真的好好的重新去思考如何落实策划分流如果说电视台有制作违法然后侵害我们社会秩序侵害儿少权益的节目怎么样能够赶快的先让它停播如果说一而再再而再犯的话就该撤照就撤照了就不要等到换照的时候再来处理"},{"start":8242.492,"end":8259.102,"text":"對 否則的話這對於電視台業者來講就是說我之前我都沒有犯什麼嚴重的錯誤然後當時該罰的錢也罰了然後該做的跟證也跟證了結果莫名其妙到了幾年之後突然之間就不予換照我想大家無法接受這樣的一個做法"},{"start":8262.946,"end":8276.195,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員還要補充一下請NCC說明一下我想這個NCC就是對於新聞媒體這個新聞台的就是說有違規行為應該沒有權利直接停播吧應該還是會經過委員會的一個審議"},{"start":8278.917,"end":8307.416,"text":"我想這是一個程序所以我想應該不是像翁委員說的說可以馬上停播我想如果這樣子的話可能也會被你們抗議權力那麼大對不對所以我這部分是不是請NCC說明一下好來NCC請說明就是幾點補充第一點確實如果要停播以後涉及到營運的德善變更都要經過委員會來處理這是第一個第二個剛剛翁委員所提到本意上是這樣子可是"},{"start":8309.077,"end":8324.447,"text":"形成的文字在今天其實是目的是沒辦法達到因為如果那個那家假設退換部他被我們停播了他去提送的話到這文字他又繼續播所以這個會有落差那另外剛才蘇耀文提到說新聞自由的其實是有他的一些"},{"start":8325.347,"end":8348.084,"text":"大法官4至第364號已經解釋了就是新聞自由廣電媒體的部分的表意自由其實還是要受相當的一些調和節制那就是我們相當的作用法包括這次的衛廣法的一些處理 以上補充再更正一下剛剛那個主委的說法請看清楚66條之一的規定"},{"start":8350.461,"end":8379.018,"text":"我就針對廢照跟駁回換照處分的時候依法提起行政訴訟還尚未上於訴訟系主者可以繼續營運我沒有說停播唷如果說今天NCC依法去做出停播處分業者他是可以循著行政訴訟的程序可以再去請求譬如說定暫時狀態假處分或是再請求這個訴訟就近如果說是法院他不核給"},{"start":8379.918,"end":8400.567,"text":"而暫時狀態處分的時候業者就被停播所以不要把我現在所規定的內容又擴大到說停播處分我沒有針對停播處分去進行處理這個部分一定要要釐清還請主委要看清楚本席所提出來的法律修正案"},{"start":8401.438,"end":8422.141,"text":"對 這一點也是我剛剛想要跟主委提醒的就是委員的文字修正其實白紙黑字寫得很清楚那不應該有任何的一個揣測或是添加的一個說明好 66條之一這樣看起來還是沒有一個共識那我們是不是請示在場委員我們也一起一併保留"},{"start":8423.615,"end":8448.501,"text":"好 那我来先说明一下因为我们整个这个条文都已经勾数一遍了那我先再回来第11条条文就是刚刚依照NCC这边有再提出来这个新增立法说明就是从6年改成9年的这一个部分第11条条文修正那我再念一下我们的说明"},{"start":8449.341,"end":8456.574,"text":"一 就請參照這上面的這個修復法說明那我們新增說明二說明二為本法"},{"start":8458.067,"end":8481.9,"text":"至中華民國本法中華民國幾年幾月幾日修正條文施行之日仍為有效之執照其有效期間為至原核發日起 算九年就在我們的電視螢幕上"},{"start":8488.435,"end":8512.774,"text":"第十一条条文修正草案我们新增立法说明二这是第二的立法说明我的建议文字稍微做点修正本法中华民国修正条文施行之日前为有效之执照其有效期间"},{"start":8514.322,"end":8542.157,"text":"為自原核發之日起算延長為9年其有效期間為自原核發日起算延長至9年對你這邊起算啊就是你這個條文施行前是有效的執照嘛對不對它的有效期間從第一次核發之日起算"},{"start":8545.41,"end":8566.44,"text":"延长为9年还是说起算9年起算9年就元和发日起算9年本来起算6年变起算9年那就把延长就删掉起算起算9年那是不是刚刚翁委员有讲到一个就是施行之日多加一个前"},{"start":8569.454,"end":8594.109,"text":"就是你这条公布钱是有效的执照因为你这边讲说人文有效执照好像感觉他之前不是有效执照不行不能加钱是OK好那钱拿掉不然这样子可能钱不知道钱多久都算钱要不然就把人这个字拿掉好了我觉得那个人是个罪语就是原来的原来这里面的"},{"start":8595.743,"end":8607.299,"text":"仍然為有效執照就是為有效執照就好了施行之日好這樣可能更精簡我們法律用語那個法務部要不要給點意見"},{"start":8610.356,"end":8628.138,"text":"好如果沒有的話那我們是不是就依照這樣子一個立法說明通過好我們就新增第11條條文修正草案就新增立法說明2那依照上那我是不是我知道第20條那個文字出來了嗎稍微給我5分鐘"},{"start":8628.919,"end":8641.813,"text":"好所以對我正要講就是那這樣子我們是不是休息10分鐘好不好那10分鐘內我想也跟提案委員這邊取得一個共識看能不能取得一個共識那10分鐘之後我們繼續來處理第20條以上謝謝"},{"start":8844.867,"end":8845.671,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9255.731,"end":9283.004,"text":"好謝謝來交通委員會我們繼續開會那剛剛經過我們休息時間跟提案委員的這個溝通那第20條目前看起來還是沒有辦法達成共識那我們就一樣是不是請示在場委員我們就保留第20條也一併保留好如果沒有意見的話那我們再來是不是就勾書一遍今天好來是盧委員"},{"start":9285.191,"end":9308.746,"text":"這個我是跟NCC建議一下諮詢委員我已經跟你們吵了幾個月了對不對所以剛剛幾位委員我覺得提的是基本的需求我想為什麼我想責任政治嘛你做了什麼樣的決議然後之後不能給人家檢驗當然你們的委員是公開的名單但是委員跟諮詢委員之前變成"},{"start":9309.767,"end":9332.643,"text":"好像這個社會公正人士他們做這樣的決議你們高度一致對不對他們該罰你們就罰所以變成你們主要的考量原因是因為有一群專家學者做了該罰或者不罰的一個決議讓你們最後的委員很好做決策所以變成這一件整個決策的某種意見的領先變成諮詢委員那再來"},{"start":9335.945,"end":9344.548,"text":"那諮詢委員沒有關係啊可是諮詢委員每一屆50位的名單從哪來真的是社會公正人士嗎是主委決定"},{"start":9346.435,"end":9375.488,"text":"50位裡面每次挑9位 11位 15位開會誰決定 主委決定如果這個事情都不能夠拿出來檢驗的話我簡單來講就主委決定一切了我就找幾個固定我坦白跟你們要名單我直接講你們愛給不給我就叫這50個名單我再猜至少有30位以上是掛在牆壁上的永遠不叫他的他是來平衡這個知名度的各個學校很漂亮"},{"start":9377.166,"end":9391.205,"text":"你固定運用的我覺得不會超過20位所以你這個事後事後每一次開完會他出來給人家檢驗我做什麼決議這基本的嘛會說有什麼好吵的"},{"start":9394.079,"end":9412.797,"text":"所以简单回应一下就好吧谢谢卢明哲委员的指导跟各位委员报告这个咨询委员有两大区块刚刚卢委员所提到的是节目广告咨询委员会那是做裁判案的一些咨询委员会那个是大扑我的9到51人"},{"start":9414.418,"end":9439.729,"text":"那今天討論社會廣告法裡頭是深色評鑑換照的委員會他名額是固定線型條文是固定好像是11人9到11人所以情況不一樣那也跟第三點報告節目廣告諮詢會的部分經過林國正委員的指導和督促我們已經修訂相關的作業要點會藉其後公告藉其後公佈他的名單以上補充"},{"start":9440.342,"end":9457.867,"text":"好谢谢好那这样子我们卫星广播电视法我们都已经勾出一遍了好那等一下那第20条最后怎么决定要保留哦刚刚本来我们都已经谈了不是说要那个吗要赶快啊对啊对本来都是最后就是委员"},{"start":9460.464,"end":9473.044,"text":"剛剛已經來歐山委員因為本席剛剛都一直在處理那我剛剛也已經詢問過委員有沒有意義因為我們剛剛在跟他討論文字好那如果好沒關係就保留送協商吧好"},{"start":9524.59,"end":9532.892,"text":"好協商處理完畢做以下宣告本日主條審查之協商結論免予宣讀授權議事人員整理為決議內容"},{"start":9535.491,"end":9555.249,"text":"針對本日會議做以下決議一衛星廣播電視法等修正草案以併案審查完略委員許智傑等27人提案及委員洪孟凱等22人提案擬據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前不需交由黨團協商"},{"start":9557.253,"end":9579.993,"text":"其餘個案另擬據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前須交由黨團協商以上院會討論時均由紅召集委員孟凱做補充說明條字引述條文部分文字及原引條字授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":9583.269,"end":9584.77,"text":"本日會議結束現在休息我們12月24號禮拜三繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":9617.623,"end":9636.093,"text":"對阿 如果是不是立法院的就目前這樣 等於我們就切得還蠻輕鬆的之前那個接地責保護法"},{"start":9649.07,"end":9672.227,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"17141","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17141","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eac22d0fafdfecfd6088890845ad1f9d833fa04411479d882a0431afa4fbc0ded95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長、衛生福利部部長、交通部部長、警政署署長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局局長、法務部部長就計畫性攻擊事件進行「社會治安維護之檢討與精進」專題報告並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-22T08:35:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-22T13:04:00+08:00","duration":16111,"影片長度":"04:28:31","委員發言時間":"08:35:29 - 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張志倫說明提案要旨決議詐欺犯罪危害防治條例修正草案等35案依第7條至第11條第13條第42條第43條第46條第47條第50條均照行政院提案通過"},{"start":1723.527,"end":1751.802,"text":"二委員楊瓊英等29人提案第30條委員黃婕等16人提案第31條及第40條委員王定宇等18人提案第54條均不予修正維持線性條文三委員黃婕等16人提案增訂第31條之一不予增訂四第44條除增訂第一項第三款三教唆幫助或利用未滿18歲滿80歲或非本國籍人士犯罪或與之共同實施犯罪外依照行政院提案通過"},{"start":1752.822,"end":1769.843,"text":"五审查通过这条文条次引述条文之文字及相关法制用与授权主席及议事人员整理六宾案审查完据拟据审查报告提报院会不需交由党团协商并推请王兆济为美会与院会讨论时做补充说明七通过附带决议一项宣读完毕"},{"start":1779.009,"end":1803.486,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議意思有無錯誤或遺漏無錯誤意思確定那據進行本日議程報告事項請宣讀邀請內政部部長衛生福利部部長交通部部長警政署署長國家安全會議秘書長國家安全局局長法務部部長就計劃性攻擊事件進行社會治安維護之檢討與精進專題報告並被質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1811.022,"end":1834.213,"text":"現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員首先介紹王美惠召委黃婕委員李柏毅委員蘇巧慧委員張志倫委員"},{"start":1840.529,"end":1867.63,"text":"那現在介紹列席的官員有內政部長劉世芳劉部長我們警政署張榮鑫張署長衛生服務部政務次長呂健德疾病管制署署長羅一鈞交通部的政務次長武聖元綜合規劃司司長張垂龍"},{"start":1870.956,"end":1898.471,"text":"公共運輸監理師的市長胡迪啟鐵道局局長楊振軍國營台灣鐵路股份公司總經理馮輝昇台灣高速鐵路股份公司總經理陳慧玉國家安全局副局長陳松吉保護部常務市長黃蒙信"},{"start":1905.7,"end":1907.929,"text":"那現在請內政部劉部長釋放報告"},{"start":1917.319,"end":1942.826,"text":"黃昭偉還有各位委員大家早內政部跟警政署就社會治安維護的檢討與精進做簡單的口頭報告114年12月19日17時許台北車站捷運站以下稱北捷及中山區南西商圈發生丟擲煙霧彈隨機襲擊的事件造成4死11傷的遺憾結果本案犯嫌事先預謀並且計劃周詳選擇在交通尖峰時段"},{"start":1946.767,"end":1966.585,"text":"以及人潮聚集的處所實施犯案震驚全社會大眾當日警方獲報查緝縱火案時在最短時間17時41分透過焚毀的車輛以鎖定縱火犯的身份並且立即通知桃園市政府警察局楊梅分局協助前往犯嫌"},{"start":1967.686,"end":1984.804,"text":"張嫻的戶籍地來查訪在18時11分新聞露出之後台北市政府警察局立即透過監視器畫面比對確認同一范嫻雖然范嫻系預沒犯案且刻意藉由連續變裝變換交通工具選擇監視器死角等方式躲避偵查"},{"start":1986.185,"end":2004.891,"text":"為針對范嫻軌跡進行調閱之後終能釐清案發經過及確認范嫻身份實施圍捕並且及時透過媒體向民眾說明案情以安定民心內政部警政署在案件發生之後立即在當天19日18時45分通報各警察機關"},{"start":2006.391,"end":2031.937,"text":"針對大型活動、交通樞紐、航空、鐵路、公路、捷運等大眾運輸以及人潮聚集的處所加強巡邏、重點守望等維安勤務提高見景率在12月20日總統蒞臨警政署聽取1.219台北市隨機襲擊事件的專案報告當中強調公共運輸系統是民眾日常生活的重要命脈請內政部持續檢討"},{"start":2033.157,"end":2058.955,"text":"建立快速反應機制在狀況發生之後 使能及時反應 制止攻擊的行為因此內政部在12月20日到21日分成三的梯次與全國22位直轄市縣市警察局局長就轄內大型活動或人潮聚集處所警察機關如何結合民力召開加強公共場域及交通運輸系統安全維護的專案會議"},{"start":2060.876,"end":2089.966,"text":"希望能夠各機關結合所轄的義警義交社區巡守隊等民力資源以及各公共場域活動辦理主辦單位的保全人員形成多層次的社會安全防護網絡經過調查114年12月21日到12月31日接續元旦農曆年前各地廟會慶祝活動重大活動共計137場均已由轄區警察局妥適規劃勤務加強安危部署"},{"start":2091.026,"end":2100.032,"text":"針對使用攜勤名利的部分也依照總統指示加強運用合計使用警名利共17295人次含員警11902人次名利5649人次這個5649人次當中還包括民防守望相助隊保全義警等"},{"start":2111.55,"end":2139.966,"text":"以全面來提升見景率跟嚇阻的效果結合各類的民力穩定民心確保大型活動可以圓滿安全進行在結語的部分由於長期以來台灣社會治安平穩未曾有此大規模襲擊事件的經驗因此發生之際民眾與相關部門在震驚之下難免反應不及但中央與地方政府包括在警政消防跟醫療體系裡面均盡力掌握情資並且努力降低更多的傷亡"},{"start":2140.586,"end":2161.872,"text":"同時在這次事件當中許多第一時間見義勇為協助急救的民眾包括因為阻止歹徒行兇而不幸罹難的余先生都是我們的英雄在沉動之餘政府也要再次呼籲民眾面對在危機時仍然要以保護自身安全為優先助人與自救同樣可貴和重要"},{"start":2162.512,"end":2179.72,"text":"此外對於網路上面某些想要模仿歹徒行徑的言論甚至行動政府也要提出最嚴厲的警告台灣對於任何恐怖攻擊的行為都是零容忍查緝潛在的威脅與襲擊沒有模糊的空間警方跟政府各單位一定會嚴正執法"},{"start":2181.161,"end":2203.077,"text":"請民眾勿以此犯罪行為作為嬉鬧的主題這對於不幸傷亡的民眾來說完全無法接受也呼籲民眾如果發現可疑或異常情形能及時向警方反映與警察機關共同守護安全最後如同總統院長以及蔣市長在會議當中所說的對於未來公共場所安全措施的強化"},{"start":2203.957,"end":2214.583,"text":"內政部一定會從訓練裝備演習等三大方向在最短時間內同步提升讓全體國民能持續享有安全安心安居的環境以上檢要報告謝謝有事辦部長的報告那接下來我們請衛生福利部呂健德次長報告"},{"start":2233.243,"end":2247.468,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生今天大院第11屆第4次內政委員會召開全體委員會議本部呈邀列席報告來就重大社會治安事件因應作為以及推動強化社會安全網計畫來提出專案報告"},{"start":2248.669,"end":2260.666,"text":"首先政府自強化社會安全網推動以來已經逐步建立跨體系的合作基礎到目前為止總計有社會福利服務中心156處社區心理衛生中心65處禁用6294名的社工專業人力"},{"start":2266.938,"end":2287.899,"text":"推薦弱勢就業比例為79%強化社會安全網2.0立即在前述的基礎上面我們會進一步來強化初級預防風險管理以及服務銜接的機制以因應不同家庭生活週期可能面臨的社會風險那麼社會安全網目前已經整合社會政教育勞政警政法務等五個部會"},{"start":2288.84,"end":2305.828,"text":"持續推展社福中心的資源以及保護業務同時也建置了兒保醫療中心12處並且成立22處的集中篩派案中心也受理35萬件的通報案件99%的案件都在實現之內完成派案程序"},{"start":2306.488,"end":2319.115,"text":"那麼第二因應本次重大社會治安事件的作為第一本部立即啟動血液暴露後諮詢以及公費投藥專案本次事件因為部分民眾可能有血液暴露的風險"},{"start":2320.919,"end":2342.17,"text":"疾管署已經立即啟動血液暴露後諮詢以及公費投藥專案並且在12月20號立即召開記者會對外來說明那麼針對遭砍傷或有血液暴露而尚未就醫的民眾可以撥打24小時1922防疫專線來進行轉介評估而住院傷患則是由收治"},{"start":2343.13,"end":2357.651,"text":"醫院來評估而經過評估需要需要者在曝露後72小時內會完成完成公費的預防投藥那麼會因為血液曝露感染HIV的機率事實上相當低而投藥之後可以將風險降為零請"},{"start":2360.114,"end":2388.774,"text":"受影響的民眾務須過度擔心並且我們也呼籲社會務肉縮這個傷者以免增加心理調適的壓力第二本部馬上啟動一案一社工的關懷服務針對台北車站與捷運中山站發生的隨機傷害事件已經啟動一案一社工的關懷服務提供媒合心理支持生活協助法律諮詢等服務來確保受害者能立即獲得妥善的照顧以及後續的權益保障"},{"start":2389.454,"end":2405.367,"text":"那麼第三我們會持續精進重大社會事件的心理健康應變機制本部在攻擊事件發生之後立即透過發布衛教宣導的資訊提醒民眾關注自身的心理狀況同時也督導地方政府的衛生局"},{"start":2406.708,"end":2428.31,"text":"針對目睹事件的民眾傷者以及死者家屬主動進行關懷訪視以及提供必要的心理支持服務第三本部將強化並且檢視社會安全網相關的一些要件強化社會安全網2.0的計畫政策重點將由單一事件的處理轉向以人為本以家庭為中心的整體風險管理結合社政"},{"start":2429.051,"end":2450.004,"text":"衛生教育警政司法等網絡資源強化高風險個案的追蹤以及服務銜接在重點工作的策略方面第一我們將擴大推動獨居老人的送暖政策第二將發展拖圓拖平的服務方法第三優化提升現有的集中篩判案中心為調查處理中心"},{"start":2450.564,"end":2477.924,"text":"精準派案並且精進分級處理的制度第四將科技導入輔助專業能力以及服務品質提升來提升資料品質同時在社安網的2.0的經費需求部分我們也大幅提高為第二期計畫的1.7倍除了充實專業能力之外同時也將延續第二期的計畫投入包括獨居老人 近貧人口新手父母以及數位性影像受暴力"},{"start":2478.984,"end":2487.951,"text":"等各項的支持那麼本部將持續與各部會以及地方政府齊心和協力強化社會安全網以根本解決"},{"start":2489.497,"end":2509.877,"text":"並且減少影響社會安全的貧窮失業家庭衝突疾病自殺以及社會疏離以及犯罪等各項風險因子讓民眾生活能夠更加安心本部成大院各規委員的指導以及監督在此請靜置謝神並且請各位來繼續指教 謝謝"},{"start":2514.721,"end":2520.837,"text":"謝謝衛福部的李建德次長報告接下來我們請交通部武聖元次長報告"},{"start":2528.463,"end":2546.079,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天應邀貴委員會就社會治安維護的檢討已經進行專案報告緊究交通部轄管的全國各大交通廠站發生維安事件的應變機制以作為檢要的說明"},{"start":2547.793,"end":2577.202,"text":"第一個在維安事件的應變這個機制的作為交通部轄管全國各大交通的場站包括國道休息區鐵道港口航空站重要的觀光景點等針對這些各類的維安事件的應變機制以及作為僅分數如此第一個路上交通的設施高速公路各服務區都設有保全人員並採取走動式的管理24小時全天候的"},{"start":2578.142,"end":2600.741,"text":"執行區內的安全維護事件並注意所有可疑的人事物隨時保持警戒性當這個服務區發生人為的危機事件立即啟動緊急應變組織以疏散救人為優先的處置一個重點並請內政部 警政署 國道 高速公路 警察局 地方警察局以及醫療單位來支援"},{"start":2601.461,"end":2616.697,"text":"鐵道部分重要的車站我們每年都會辦理一次車站隨機殺人模擬一個演練並請鐵路警察局共同派員來參與以及指導當發生緊急事故的時候我們迅速通報鐵路警察派員來執行應變"},{"start":2618.573,"end":2636.096,"text":"並立即疏散引導旅客到安全的地方進行傷亡的一個搶救同時隔離在一個現場管制人員的進出避免非授權人員的誤入造成危害的一個擴大另外為了防止後續的列車到達車站以後受到"},{"start":2637.217,"end":2660.563,"text":"受影響的區域 針對受影響區域的其他載客列車 基於安全考量而無法及時進行這個月來蘇贊時嘗試將該列車 我們就移離這個車站第二個 在港口的部分 中部 港港局以及台灣港務公司 免而參考這個年度的重大議題以及曾經常見災害的類型 樣態"},{"start":2662.143,"end":2691.336,"text":"來定期邀集港區各個機關以及CIQS等單位也就是邊境官裡面的四個重大關卡包括海關證照的查驗檢疫以及安全這個檢查燈那我們來辦理這樣的演習來驗證規劃措施以及緊接應變的一個能力那藉由各項的缺失減好改善來檢視三港本身的一個安全防護的一個能量納入這個措施與程序的修正"},{"start":2691.946,"end":2705.682,"text":"在航空站的部分 交通部民良局責成督導航空站定期會同內政部警政署 航港局還有諸位的保全等相關單位進行重大的人為"},{"start":2707.143,"end":2725.112,"text":"維安的事件一個演練來熟悉應變的作業另外為了強化機場安全的維護航空站已經設置這個機場的管制區並且由航港局對於進入機場管制區的人員物品車輛來進行執行安全的一個檢查"},{"start":2726.636,"end":2743.384,"text":"另外針對航廈報到大廳以及停車場這些的路側的公共設施也執行巡邏守望的一個作業持續滾動來檢視脆弱點並予以補強第四個在重要的觀光景點以及大型活動"},{"start":2744.585,"end":2773.504,"text":"我們平時應用的監視系統來即時掌控現場的一個動態巡查人員來執行定時以及不定時的巡查作業落實現場這個區域的一個管理以及監控並依據由下而上同步通報的原則發生危險事件時現場第一人就回報景區的管理處另外管理處立即就進行區域的一個管制疏散這個遊客引導群眾遠離危險的區域"},{"start":2775.505,"end":2801.71,"text":"並封鎖現場以保存物證同步通報10119或海巡署等外部的支援單位針對大型活動的安全管理措施包含事前擬定緊急應變計畫偷保公共意外責任險另外配置救護站以及保險人力規劃疏散救援的動線同時定期辦擬同仁以及危害人員安全的"},{"start":2802.91,"end":2827.464,"text":"意識的教育信念以及複合型的一個災害的演練在經濟作為的部分為了前面所附公共運輸安全交通部持續會提升緊急應變能力以及強化應變的這樣的一個機制第一個我們平時落實轄管的一個場域各項的安全刑檢的一個作業建立通報的一個流程"},{"start":2828.444,"end":2847.387,"text":"第二個家常人員應變的疏散緊急救護等訓練定期辦理緊急應變以及公安的訓練透過訓練 講習 演練這些方式來培養危機處理人能力並藉由持續演練使各單位來熟練整個應變的一個程序"},{"start":2848.368,"end":2876.048,"text":"第三 深化聯防的一個機制主動和轄具的警察 消防 醫療以及地方政府建立跨機關的一個協調平台以及通報的群組是需要辦理聯合演練以及桌上的一個推演滾動式來檢討應變作為第四 善用數位的一個預警資訊例如用我們的官方APP還有手機簡訊或者是社群的平台等"},{"start":2877.609,"end":2903.204,"text":"來向遊客發送警示這樣的一個簡訊或者是安全注意的事項提高民眾維繫的一個意識在捷運的部分交通部已經要求全國各大的交通場站來同步安全的一個戒備並聯合警方加上巡邏前面的守護公共運輸保障每一位用路人旅客的安全以上"},{"start":2909.044,"end":2936.002,"text":"謝謝五次長的報告其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那現在進行詢答委員詢答前遠離座幾點宣告第一本會委員發言的時間5分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記第二臨時提案截止提出時間11點與本會委員"},{"start":2939.885,"end":2942.986,"text":"詢答完畢後處理請問各位同仁有沒有意見那現在進行詢答請登記第一位的蘇橋惠美發言"},{"start":2965.134,"end":2972.16,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請內政部劉思芳部長當然還有警政署張署長請劉部長張署長部長好署長好那"},{"start":2979.383,"end":3002.487,"text":"我想上個週五台北市發生了這樣這個捷運的隨機襲擊事件造成了許多民眾的傷亡那我們除了聲表哀悼之外其實也要對第一線的警察同仁真的表示辛苦了因為不只是當天出動了這麼多的警力甚至第二天在台北市我們以"},{"start":3004.048,"end":3025.544,"text":"這個馬拉松來看台北市馬拉松來看的話其實更是加派了雙倍的警力所以我想這一段接下來的這段時間還有很多大型活動全國的警察同仁真的要謝謝大家的努力那也辛苦了但我們就這些問題我們也還是來繼續進行討論署長先對您表示辛苦了"},{"start":3027.148,"end":3050.781,"text":"好 那接下來討論的問題當中我想藉著這個質詢的過程把這兩天當中其實民間對警察處置方向最大的疑問的幾個部分特別提出來並且也請署長做說明其實民間有三大問題第一個就是這整個事件當中警察的反應速度是否不夠快"},{"start":3051.801,"end":3071.406,"text":"到場的時間是否不夠早這是第一個尤其是它已經是有多起連續的狀態甚至往前推除了在捷運站襲擊民眾之外往前還有縱火甚至是到住家的部分也都有這樣連續幾個部分為什麼警察都沒有發現所以第一個是到場的時間"},{"start":3072.566,"end":3087.721,"text":"第二個是從新聞的影片來看這個警察的部分他到了成品裡面到百貨公司裡面的時候被拍到的影像似乎只有警棍所以是否警察的裝備不足這是平常的訓練不夠嗎還是一向都這樣這是民眾的第二個問題第三個問題的話當然就是那我們在追蹤的狀況是不是連監視器都有問題"},{"start":3096.59,"end":3122.758,"text":"所以你沒有辦法追蹤到這三個問題我想是坊間現在大家最想知道的狀況所以是不是請署長這邊可以簡單做回答好謝謝委員那發生這個案件我們警察一定是會盡力去做維護民眾安全那第一個問題就是在發生有兩個措施一個就是北捷北捷這部分是嫌犯在17點23分投擲的煙霧彈我們的警方在6分鐘就到場"},{"start":3126.579,"end":3140.811,"text":"那第二部分就是他犯案之後陶藝再繼續犯案那在這個嫌犯在到達這個中山這個成餅的這個狀況警方是在兩分鐘就到場這個時間的部分我想這個所有這個案件一定是要達到民眾要協助做報案快我們警力這個到場快以及要處置快這個原則"},{"start":3154.162,"end":3182.259,"text":"那第二部分就是說裝備的這個部分也就是說在嫌犯進入到城堡裡面我們的警力當時就是在路口有一個交通崗那交通崗的情侶本來就是沒有配槍那另外就是這個交通崗通報這個資源的時候就立資源所以是最早最快的那一組你看就是那個中山的那個所長也出來講"},{"start":3183.28,"end":3212.048,"text":"有些同仁要下班了但是他為了急迫就趕去我覺得就是說未來像類似這種裝備還是要領但是但是這裡面追進去裡面有八個人有八個人但是就是有交通港跟要下班的同仁那為了要第一時間去我覺得這個是未來可以做精進但是那裡面還是有巡邏勤務快達快達進去了那當然是有帶槍支的也有沒有帶槍支這個部分我覺得未來還是有這個精進的空間但是"},{"start":3213.288,"end":3231.256,"text":"警察的天職你看看就是說發生狀況他要下班了他就也是奮固的到達現場去做一個協助但是他大概也沒有想到說歹徒是拿了這個器械槍枝或什麼這一類的那當然未來我們這個部分會加強訓練"},{"start":3232.316,"end":3240.868,"text":"那第三個部分就是在對於監視器的部分就是第一時間到這個捷運的這個M8的那個那個那個地方的狀況我們第一時間當然是會了解這個帶圖的這個動線那確實在板南線M2的地方我們發現北捷"},{"start":3248.738,"end":3261.049,"text":"有一組的這個監視器是故障的所以這個也是一個我們要了解歹徒要他逃逸方向的一個阻礙的一個點這個三個狀況大概就這樣子好 署長"},{"start":3263.931,"end":3284.99,"text":"因為我是今天第一個質詢那我也是想藉這個時間其實是透過您的說明一方面是讓警察的所作所為有機會更完整的跟社會大眾報告一方面是降低社會的疑慮一方面是讓警察有機會能夠把自己的工作向社會大眾做報告我們當然要求未來還要精進"},{"start":3285.811,"end":3296.455,"text":"但目前現在的處置我們認為其實越公開的資訊越能夠讓大家對警察的情務了解的同時也降低民眾恐懼未來公開資訊這個部分請署長部長繼續持續的就這個重大事件向社會做說明這是我第一個部分"},{"start":3303.678,"end":3332.43,"text":"那第二個部分其實我對於剛剛您說的這個部分要說的是警力有限但民力無窮在這個過程當中我們看到了民眾有奮不顧身去協助擋住災害的部分的這樣子英勇民眾但是也有更多的民眾其實我們希望他們達到的是一個自保的狀況所以我利用我最後的兩分鐘質詢時間我想跟部長來探討一下這個大家現在昨天之後大家在想的這個小局書的部分"},{"start":3333.03,"end":3347.217,"text":"昨天之後其實大家都在看小局書裡面有沒有教到我們對這樣子的重大危害的生命的事件有指引有因應有教我們怎麼做呢部長我想請問一下劉部長我想請問一下這次昨天的事件在小局書裡面有寫到嗎"},{"start":3353.836,"end":3373.316,"text":"我們寫的部分比較沒有那麼明確其實沒有因為是我們是在教民眾自救的部分比如說止血啊或者是什麼AED的部分等等的這個部分沒有但是在這個12頁裡面有如何自救與護救裡面有提到毒化物質的災害的時候"},{"start":3373.456,"end":3388.322,"text":"沒錯 這是災害發生的時候但是署長對不起我再回來問署長署長你會定義如何定義昨天這樣的一個重大治安事件這個事件是一個你會定義它是恐怖攻擊嗎我想這個還是有一段距離這個是一個隨機隨機的一個襲擊事件"},{"start":3391.903,"end":3416.989,"text":"那你會定義它是暴力重大人為危安事件嗎應該會 會嘛對不對其實部長署長我想也是跟大家分享我們的小局書裡面當然沒有這樣子的一個面對重大暴力危害事件但是其實我們在7月的時候行政院的國土安全辦公室"},{"start":3417.429,"end":3440.663,"text":"其實就有出了一份民眾自我安全防護嘗試篇的反暴力重大人為維安事件或恐怖攻擊其實在裡面我們快速的看一下其實在裡面寫得非常的清楚剛好就是昨天這個重大事件其實在裡面可以看得很清楚常見的手段有哪些砍殺縱火槍擊劫持爆炸昨天裡面就有砍殺就有縱火"},{"start":3442.324,"end":3465.898,"text":"好再來我們如何辨識這可疑的人事物其實這裡面指引的很清楚很明白的告訴我們未來你在場合上面看到什麼樣的人你可以覺得你應該覺得他是可疑的人可疑的是甚至是如何辨識危險物品也講得非常的清楚再來碰到了可疑的人事物的時候你要做什麼你要怎麼通報"},{"start":3467.239,"end":3479.974,"text":"通報警察也是要有技巧的不要講一大堆其他的反而降低了通報的時間最後面對剛剛這樣子的事件的時候我們的策略是什麼其實跟國際完全接軌就是跑躲"},{"start":3483.197,"end":3505.874,"text":"還有說這三大策略因為就像部長剛剛您說的自救和救人是同樣重要不必逞英雄自救可以及時的離開危險現場反而是對民眾最大的指引所以其實我是認為其實這份指引非常的詳盡而且重要不過也看得出來因為他在第一頁的時候他就有說"},{"start":3506.775,"end":3535.151,"text":"因為台灣在這個恐怖主義風險指數其實是很低的在全球163個國家之中我們排100是屬於恐怖攻擊很低的國家所以當時我猜你們在編列小局書的時候並沒有把這一項恐怖攻擊放進去但我想部長和署長今天我們確實面對的不見得是恐怖攻擊可是它確實也是重大的"},{"start":3536.38,"end":3564.36,"text":"暴力重大人為維安事件未來我們是不是可以考慮把這麼重要的指引如果小局書要繼續精進的時候可以放在裡面把這麼重要的跑躲縮這樣的指引讓更多人知道感謝委員支持我們在下一次在更新版的時候會放到裡面去我想這個沒有人想看到危險但既然它發生了我們就應該要有自救自保的能力所以在這裡強烈的建議內政部下一次可以提出這樣的建議"},{"start":3567.574,"end":3572.195,"text":"好謝謝委員好謝謝蘇協會委員的發言接下來我們請張志榮委員發言好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請劉世芳部長內政部劉世芳部長衛福部呂市長以及政署張署長謝謝好請好委員早"},{"start":3590.423,"end":3617.571,"text":"好 謝謝部長那針對這個114年12月19號北捷跟這個中山區南西站發生的這個隨機傷人及殺人事件那本席表示非常遺憾那也感謝現場第一線所有的警察消防人員以及建議有為的人員那也很感謝現在在很多的重要的這個場所以及重大的一些活動有增加警力 增加建警力非常感謝"},{"start":3618.351,"end":3645.976,"text":"不過我必須要說現在民眾針對這件事情覺得台灣的安全網其實是出了問題因為這次是繼政捷終捷是第三次發生嚴重的攻擊事件那我想要先請問署長因為這個嫌犯張文他是一個通緝犯他是一個叫招不到替代的通緝犯他7月開始通緝那為什麼他可以像一般人一樣一樣生活 一樣住宿"},{"start":3646.636,"end":3675.923,"text":"然後還是不是有就醫的紀錄那我想要請教一下難道這個現在通緝犯都跟一般人一樣生活來去自如嗎那為什麼會發生這樣的事情是不是警察太辛苦通緝犯也是我們查捕的對象只要一發布通緝我們是通靈全國的警察單位會去做查捕那這個也是我們警察工作任務之一我要跟署長報告一點就是說在警察在執法的時候其實他跟其他各單位是沒有做聯通的"},{"start":3676.443,"end":3698.87,"text":"就是警察就只能接受110或是現場去圍捕逮捕所以早次有一些通緝犯長期以來他是沒辦法不好去做追緝的所以我是請衛福部來解釋一下他當時有沒有就醫記錄他有沒有從這段時間在通緝期間有沒有就醫過報告委員根據我們我們那個社安網我們相關的一個記錄他並沒有這個相關的那個就醫這邊只有沒有就醫沒有"},{"start":3699.15,"end":3723.825,"text":"那 請署長那就是說這邊還是要請各公家單位協助如果他有去辦任何有跟公家單位有關的東西我是請署長這邊未來要跟其他的相關單位大家一起協力來抓捕這些通緝犯以免造成重大的問題那第二我要想請教這位張嫻 張文賢犯他民眾也很恐慌的是第一個當然我剛剛講的通緝犯會不會就在你身邊第二個"},{"start":3724.745,"end":3741.694,"text":"這個嫌犯張文他當時帶了七把刀跟一整袋的汽油彈跟煙霧彈到了我們的北捷而且身穿戰術背心那我想要請教就針對我們現在這樣子有可能攻擊民眾這種嫌犯他在捷運站"},{"start":3742.934,"end":3757.12,"text":"這樣子來去自如 會不會讓人民造成恐慌有沒有什麼辨識跟攔查的方式本席是有一個小建議現在我們很多的監視系統是不是可以不要針對人 針對物品"},{"start":3759.321,"end":3780.112,"text":"做一些科技執法的一些動作因為我們大家最近很多委員也在請教現在很多科技執法用的都是交通罰單我們是不是說現在科技執法應該在一些重大的公共領域去針對一些有可能的嫌犯所私藏的這些有可能的攻擊的物品是不是有可能來做科技執法"},{"start":3781.131,"end":3807.288,"text":"這個部分謝謝委員的建議我覺得這個也是一個從源頭處理也就是在這個公共運輸系統比如講像高鐵捷運台鐵這一些只要進站只要是進站的這些入口是可以用AI的這個設備來對於危險物品的一個這個掀起的發現就好像我們要進入雜門你帶了裡面如果槍枝刀芥或者危險物品如果透過AI設備比較做掃描的這個設備"},{"start":3808.729,"end":3826.742,"text":"是第一時間是可以發現這些這個拜託署長不會進入到這個公共的場域那你們未來要多花多久時間來去做這樣的檢討這個部分我們大概建立交通部來做這樣的一個建立好那交通部今天不在嗎交通部交通部是不是趕快時間暫停一下交通部"},{"start":3831.613,"end":3859.169,"text":"好 交通部那當對張署長的回應您這邊有沒有什麼做法我想剛講的用AI去辨識我想這個我們回去研議一下大概要多久時間因為進口 因為它這個它那個入口的人會太多這樣的話我們考慮一下包括它進場的這個旅客對這樣的一個受的影響有沒有大概可以多久時間可以研議出來我們是不是可以給我們兩個月好嗎好 可以 謝謝好 謝謝你 謝謝"},{"start":3860.738,"end":3887.552,"text":"再來我在請教署長在針對這次案件裡面其實民眾其實是有打110報案但是因為現場有煙霧所以民眾緊慌民眾會驚慌所以基本上報案的期間大概都是說因為有煙霧所以不知道嫌犯其實手上有持長刀大概30公分以上的長刀利刃所以這邊也要拜託署長這邊未來就是一樣要科技執法就是說可以"},{"start":3889.133,"end":3907.774,"text":"立即的告訴我們前線的執行的這個同仁說現在情況到底發生什麼樣的情況讓我們執行的同仁可以知道說現場不只是有煙霧那也是有這個長刀人等的利器的這個問題那接下來我想要請問這個衛福部的部分因為全台現在目前是有三件的這個"},{"start":3908.795,"end":3934.575,"text":"模仿犯說可能未來就是想要模仿這個張文做相關的事情那我想請問一下不管是警政署那未來衛福部會不會針對這樣的事情如何針對這些人進行追蹤是 非常感謝委員的一個追尋我跟委員做兩個簡單的報告過去我們的社會安全網主要的對象主要都是針對貧窮 家暴 兒虐 身心障礙 藥酒 飲以及精神疾病"},{"start":3935.055,"end":3958.809,"text":"那麼這一次他顯然是一個比較特殊的我說特殊的一個意思就是說他有兩個重點第一個他是他比較屬於社會孤立另外第二個他累積了長期的這一個可能挫折那當然就是相關的動機我們警政署這邊還在理清當中但是對於這些所謂非典型我們這一次部長也指示我們現在目前會來做一個整個新案的一個檢討像包括剛剛委員您剛所說的"},{"start":3959.649,"end":3982.295,"text":"類似像這些比較屬於所謂非典型跟高度突發性這個我們會來列入未來社安網的一個相關對象上面的一個整個審視所以用社安網繼續進行追蹤是嗎我們就是這個部分就是新案的部分我們現在目前在請專家包括也跟像警大陣營這邊那你們大概要多久時間演繹出來我們現在目前正在做相關的檢視大概有沒有時間"},{"start":3985.014,"end":4009.574,"text":"我們現在那個 能不能三個月好不好三個月時間 好 謝謝再請內政部部長部長 游部長這次的案件裡面其實跟過去的這個犯案裡面本席覺得比較差異的是這次不是一次攻擊他是當時在北捷攻擊完以後第二次又到南溪的這個成品附近做攻擊他這也是兩次的攻擊"},{"start":4010.535,"end":4036.291,"text":"那中間其實也隔了一個多小時的時間所以這邊我要想要請教部長來協助的是其實我們很多民眾在討論說是不是未來可以發這個細胞簡訊的部分因為這個嫌犯他當時是用步行的一個狀況那不管他在北車或者是在這個南西的這個狀況的時候其實民眾當時都不知道發生什麼事情可是就我們過去我們國家其實在針對一些重大災害不管是地震"},{"start":4037.331,"end":4054.212,"text":"颱風的時候都有發這個細胞簡訊那這個部分是不是可以請部長講一下說未來是不是有機會遇到這種重大的攻擊事件的時候有沒有怎麼樣的狀況可以來發細胞簡訊報告委員 按照目前的機制的話地方政府他們所發的細胞簡訊以疏散撤離為主"},{"start":4055.453,"end":4067.146,"text":"那如果蘇贊撤離的時候呢必須要有相對的參數所謂的相對參數譬如說有颱風警報或者有地震警報或者大雨警報或者是相關的這些科學性的數據我們才能知道說他細胞簡訊要發給誰有多大的範圍"},{"start":4070.39,"end":4098.358,"text":"這次就像北捷他可以發就是周邊用電訊的話發大概幾公里但是不曉得嫌犯現在跑到哪裡去也就是說他整個範圍是以台北車站為主還有跑到中山站或是跑到中山站上面的南西那你整個發下去的話第一個會不會引起其他的不必要的恐慌因為大家不曉得發生什麼事那如果你能夠確定CBS所發的簡訊非常清楚是發生什麼事情的話我相信民眾收到這樣的簡訊當然可以達到疏散撤離的效果"},{"start":4098.838,"end":4117.27,"text":"但是如果你的相對參數沒有那麼明確的話反而會造成其他更多的疑問但是我剛有提到這個相對的程序是有的如果市政府覺得有這個需求那跟行政院的這個災防辦來提出這樣的要求那他們會做比較好的評估所以這個發細胞簡訊的主管機關是誰"},{"start":4118.599,"end":4141.116,"text":"就行政院的災防辦因為蔣萬事長其實也有特別有提到最近有提到說未來不排除發氣包簡訊來提供民眾但是我剛剛跟委員報告過程序不是問題而是你在啟動或作動的時候是由誰來發動這個才是需要參考很多不同國家的狀況台北市政府沒辦法自己發動一定要到行政院來去做沒有沒有不是"},{"start":4141.576,"end":4168.178,"text":"不是發動的話當然地方政府可以發動就是他如果程序完成沒有問題我是說要發動是由誰來發動是什麼事情你要提出來譬如說我們像這次馬太安溪他要發動的時候是由農業部因為他主管的是跟這個土石流跟大規模的這個崩塌有關那這個是指什麼事情要能夠明確的定義清楚如果你明確定義不清楚沒有辦法界定範圍的話引起不必要的猜測跟恐慌更何況人潮洶湧來來去去人不一樣"},{"start":4170.8,"end":4175.842,"text":"就好像譬如說地震四級的時候四級地震的範圍有多大那這樣國科會就知道四級地震大概涵蓋的範圍是多大那你這次的範圍你不曉得嫌犯到哪裡去啊你也不曉得最後在哪裡 發生什麼事我們是希望時間要求快但是在處理的過程當中可能要做審慎的研議"},{"start":4190.308,"end":4213.337,"text":"那最後還是要跟這個最後兩個問題第一個就是說其實現在社會常常動盪不安警察同仁非常忙碌所以當時為什麼我們在立法院在今年1月7號三讀通過要警察人事條例第35條修正幫警察跟消防人員的所得替代率上升到80%重點就是要保障高風險的警消人員的一些福利"},{"start":4213.917,"end":4232.776,"text":"那行政院現在沒有編列預算本席還是要這邊呼籲行政院依法行政編築預算給警消應有的尊嚴跟保障那最後剛剛蘇喬業委員也特別請教劉部長關於這本這個全民安全指引這個小局書這個部分剛剛署長部長也特別提到說這裡面有關於這個類似這個"},{"start":4236.599,"end":4261.788,"text":"國內的這種傷人跟恐怖攻擊類似恐怖攻擊的事件其實這本書裡面是沒有太強調裡面的這個內容所以本席還是要拜託部長這個要加強內容那最後這邊我要跟你們報告這個是基層的反應就是基層的公務人員他會發現他回到這個辦公室發現裡面有一整疊的這個小局書放在機關裡面然後還特別這個"},{"start":4264.009,"end":4288.269,"text":"這個請這個基層公務單位說請帶回家保管切勿丟棄在垃圾桶裡面這意思就是說什麼咧就是我要必須講這個當時不是說這個家戶一人一本嗎那為什麼現在就要全部一整疊放在機關裡面所以最後這個我還是要我們要去看一下鄉鎮市公所是不是沒有負責任把它放到家戶裡面這個是放在機關裡面的啦這是放在機關裡面然後要他們"},{"start":4290.339,"end":4318.066,"text":"沒有發放到機關所以我還是要請這個部長去了解這個就是說明明就已經拜託林里長就是挨家挨戶的放在這個家戶裡面請告訴我們在哪個縣市我們馬上來追查這個是人家這個陳情的啦就是希望說這個是不是當時是印太多了我們還是呼籲一下鄉鎮公所的村里長沒有 他沒有是在公務機關裡面在公務機關裡面就放一整疊在公務機關裡面要這些公務人員去拿"},{"start":4318.926,"end":4343.724,"text":"他們說人家一人去拿一本那也要求他們說不要丟在廁所那顯然危機意識不夠我們希望還是村里幹事能夠盡力的去發放而且我們有一套機制好 謝謝部長所以最後還是要拜託部長就是說這個小局書裡面小局書裡面的內容所以還是要增進那第二個還是要向公務人員尤其辛苦的警察消防人員的待遇我們還是要一起來加油 謝謝"},{"start":4344.865,"end":4361.267,"text":"尤其是現職的警消人員 希望委員能夠多多支持您剛講的是退休警員 跟這個不太有正相關這個不管退休跟現役我們都要幫忙那委員如果支持小局書 我們明年會再出新版好 加油謝謝張志倫委員的發言 接下來我們請王美惠再演"},{"start":4371.789,"end":4377.592,"text":"主席 我們家內政部 我們家經濟事務委員好姚部長 張署長保庭 署長 委員長今天要講到這個問題 說實在我相信每一個人都心肝很痛苦的尤其我們建設長久以來為社會 治安的怕病說實在 我們的建設也很辛苦所以剛才保庭說的"},{"start":4401.445,"end":4410.669,"text":"現任的 現在的環境不同說實在 我們的警察比以前五年前 十年前所做的 現任的 加倍的加倍的辛苦啦 是不是所以在這裡 我覺得說我們現任的 這裡的警察人員 我們要"},{"start":4426.604,"end":4433.27,"text":"因為說實在 任何人都沒有願意看到那天在台北發生的事情但是我們今天是要討論 我們最不好"},{"start":4444.414,"end":4448.576,"text":"我們討論說未來如果發生的時候我們要怎麼處理啦我們現在不是要說中央地方什麼人的資金啦有什麼問題我們要提出來討論才對啦像剛才我們這個小集數我相信沒有人知道那天拜五的報台北會發生什麼事情"},{"start":4471.147,"end":4476.548,"text":"所以說在這個過程我們也要 剛才補充說的說我們每年應該會再贏 會再贏的當中要如何家鄉裡面所有人可以大家有鼓勵和了解像補充最近你們也要去"},{"start":4495.748,"end":4501.493,"text":"地方的所在下去申請稅我們雖然裡面沒有很多說啊 看來事情我們要怎麼 議員要怎麼做啊但是我們去當地申請的時候可以再加強稅每年我們再加強稅這個是最重要的補充"},{"start":4520.314,"end":4524.217,"text":"那個 我要說因為跟署長剛才我們說的大家都看電視看說"},{"start":4529.093,"end":4532.734,"text":"因為我們台北是最熱鬧的地方嘛山鐵公共我們家裡有家裡的鐵路的建設我們家裡有鐵路的建設要不然我們新北的捷運我們有捷運的建設要不然事情發生的時候 署長"},{"start":4556.294,"end":4564.601,"text":"事情發生的時候 那天是怎麼分配 怎麼去處理尤其白社跟電視都說我們有煙霧彈的時候 電視都沒有靜音的音再來 我們火焰的時候 我們警察的無線電都沒有聽到"},{"start":4582.951,"end":4591.774,"text":"這是什麼關係是臨危現在的生活太方便太自由 大家都不去義工是不是你如果不去做這個臨時有什麼應該要改進 應該要處理的來 書長你回答一下謝謝委員那天的佩潔那個地方發生煙霧彈跟汽油彈"},{"start":4610.785,"end":4626.083,"text":"那我們了解那個北極是有廣播跟警報有警報另外剛才說的那不算 那是遙縮的那個無線系統是通的 沒有問題"},{"start":4626.724,"end":4632.608,"text":"沒有問題所以說不說這個這個有些怎麼樣的報導還是什麼樣的其實要以官方的這個我們的都會去做了解那不通我們的同仁道場我的道場 師長還有一件在這個派人所在的所在裡面有幾張有錄影的時候有海景沒辦法看到的這是團算的還是事實的"},{"start":4655.342,"end":4657.044,"text":"剛才吳議員問過 執行公司有一座監視器是被判了"},{"start":4662.56,"end":4668.844,"text":"跟派去派外顧你知不知道這可能要派外顧捷運公司來說 但是我們第一時間在調情我告訴你 我在記者會上我們這個監視器 大家所有的地方都說 我的監視器差不多大家90% 99%認真啊 地方我上車要調的時候 他去也派 他去也派啦"},{"start":4689.878,"end":4693.241,"text":"所以署長在這個派人的當中我們要找這個派人是不是有牽扯到這個地方的時候我們要去查有一點合法嗎來 署長你回答署長 那個飛機監視器是很重要因為那個管理的單位不是那種警察的單位"},{"start":4714.278,"end":4717.403,"text":"因為我懷孕已經監視器當然是我第一時間就是要已經編制身份嘛所以我還要往外圍調不是你們的單位 要不然社會的第一是大家要共同來處理的"},{"start":4729.684,"end":4734.307,"text":"未來這塊可能橫向的相關的這個聯繫要更加的加強"},{"start":4759.209,"end":4765.633,"text":"我們沒有在分數沒有在分數喔沒有在分數喔你不要說我先不是 我的意思就是說把那個分清楚分得清楚就是說因為沒有啦 署長平常是你們就要去訓練要去啦一年訓就好了啦不是發生事情要來訓的時候太慢了啦像這個派人煮鴨脯3點40幾分"},{"start":4788.749,"end":4800.192,"text":"九六點多還要做什麼事啦署長今天我們如果有聯合會做的時候我相信在陳平鄉應該不會發生這樣的事情啦所以說實在我常常說都是正常人給不正常的害死啦像這次也這樣這次也這樣"},{"start":4817.816,"end":4831.743,"text":"你看一個好人站在天堂、車廂那就是這我們要早去處理的可能會讓他不用去到產品站來發生事情因為這種的充容我們不知道我們要趕快去做的時候可能可以上海港去"},{"start":4843.325,"end":4855.911,"text":"很久了 署長因為我認為事情發生不是要求什麼人是願望 要求我們現在要怎麼去整理這裡的事情我也是祈禱說我們台灣可以平安可以地安好檢控這種的 剛才我們衛福部說跟這種的人"},{"start":4873.581,"end":4883.168,"text":"也有很多 老實說像他很多時候都不去看病我們哪知道醫院的問題在哪裡所以說社會這個問題實在有很多所以師長 本身要跟你說我們的精神 我們的花粉事情發生的時候我們要怎麼做那是重點啦 保證"},{"start":4902.162,"end":4905.024,"text":"因為現在已經台北發生這樣了你們已經有三遍開火了現在就是說我們要先演練 不能說事情發生之後我們要來處理什麼 要處理什麼都不會有"},{"start":4921.315,"end":4927.659,"text":"我問我們的市長、我們的部長 尤其是剛才衛福部的說我們要來研議 這裡的人要怎麼去處理 我覺得這要趕緊去研議 因為他沒有教育跟有的出民大會 也看那個怪怪 跟補也不好有時候還要叫 叫 叫這真的很多人 部長、市長"},{"start":4948.291,"end":4950.532,"text":"這出民黨會有很多人 但是現在衛福部會覺得他沒有報案 他沒有發生事情他在民黨裡面沒辦法處理 這也有的所以我覺得今天的問題就是我們要如何去防範這個問題你看3點多 發生到5點 6點那真的很囂張"},{"start":4978.966,"end":4985.487,"text":"謝謝黃美惠召委的說明確實這個讓人很難過希望相當會有能夠繼續教訓那接下來我們請黃捷委員發言"},{"start":5008.618,"end":5011.912,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請內政部劉部長 警政署張署長請劉部長 張署長"},{"start":5017.355,"end":5040.935,"text":"好 部長好 署長好今天講這個事情是真的很沉重啦然後大家也都覺得發生這樣的憾事非常的難過那我希望今天我們的討論不是要檢討任何的個人因為確實這個事件發生了三小時那中間從縱火三個地方到後來去北捷丟煙霧彈再到中山站持刀攻擊人"},{"start":5041.736,"end":5069.715,"text":"那其實這三個小時內大家一直在討論這個時間差到底是怎麼回事那其實我知道基層員警壓力也很大包括昨天那個所長第一時間也有出來說明那看起來他真的壓力非常大那我在這邊不希望說大家檢討這件事情絕對不是因為任何一個基層員警不夠努力大家都很努力那我們今天討論的是制度上到底有沒有可以補足的環節未來不要再發生這樣的事情"},{"start":5070.686,"end":5098.422,"text":"那第一個我先問一下這個即時通報啦因為確實他在三個小時內連續犯案而且前面是先在林森東路再去長安東路最後又到他的租屋處縱火完之後沒想到兩個小時內跑到北車丟完煙霧彈還是沒有抓到他也第一時間讓他繼續跑然後他中間還可以回到他的旅館再換裝再拿東西再到中山站拿長刀殺人"},{"start":5099.605,"end":5110.264,"text":"那中間這三個小時剛剛署長你說你們第一個時間在四分鐘六分鐘就已經有警察趕到現場了但是沒有逮到他是這樣子嗎"},{"start":5111.553,"end":5140.096,"text":"最主要就是趕到現場的時候一定要確定身份那我們第一時間就是從這個專報裡面有提到說他中午的時候中山分局是有在17點40分就知道他的身份通緝有到派員到桃園去查捕但是這個嫌犯就持續在做案中午之後大概他到住處去中午那緊接著就是又來做北捷的中午丟煙霧彈"},{"start":5141.477,"end":5160.274,"text":"那北捷那個時間開始知道他犯難的時間是17點23分那我們的同仁在6分鐘就到達現場到現場的時候是煙霧一片只知道說丟 只知道是煙霧但是不知道身份那第一次確認身份就趕快去調位這些的監視器"},{"start":5161.155,"end":5177.247,"text":"那我們發現他現場是戴這個防毒面具的跑的時候才脫掉那透過這件事才知道跟縱火的比對才知道確定是同一個身份我想警方到達現場是跟時間在做賽跑"},{"start":5179.037,"end":5198.58,"text":"時間在做賽跑就是說盡快找到嫌犯的身份確定他逃逸的方向來進行做一連串的一個通報跟追捕這三件事情他從縱火然後到丟煙霧彈再到持刀殺人請問各轄區之間的員警有任何橫向聯繫嗎"},{"start":5199.401,"end":5220.417,"text":"這個是有通報 那我想就這樣子 就是這個案其實我可以在這裡講 因為目前的 因為資訊我覺得要讓大家了解這個案是 他是有計劃型的隨機襲擊的事件從他的計劃書裡面 他所計劃的這一些的點跟內容是相同的"},{"start":5221.443,"end":5237.531,"text":"是一個他計畫中的一個隨機殺人包括北極包括中山站都是在他的計畫裡面那這個部分我們現在當然在了解他的這個動機那初步現在的這個狀況我們在因為人已經已經他已經死了嘛"},{"start":5238.551,"end":5256.482,"text":"我們現在在了解各種跡象他到底是什麼樣的一個動機那我們從這個有一些的資料現在還在解讀當中那我們現在有解讀出來了有發現因為台北市已經有發布有發現他是一個按照計劃的一個隨機"},{"start":5260.243,"end":5275.541,"text":"襲擊的一個事件那看起來他常去瀏覽尤其是瀏覽政界的這個狀況所以我們也有做這樣的研判是一個模仿的一個行為在精進版的一個一個隨機襲擊的一個行為"},{"start":5277.967,"end":5297.61,"text":"好 謝謝署長說明我必須要講啦因為他三個小時內用了三種不同類型的方案的型態所以很顯然各轄區之間並沒有發現說這是同一人所為然後他又跨區所以我是希望接下來指揮調度如果各轄區可以更緊急的彼此通報說很可能是同一人所為"},{"start":5298.311,"end":5322.784,"text":"那或許我們可以加快時間或許他還來不及進行下一次的犯案你們就可以在前面幾個小時就可以先處理掉而不會讓他整個犯案時間長達三個小時這是我要這邊拜託署長的讓第一時間第一線的員警就可以掌握情況這個非常非常重要第二個關於通訊的問題剛剛其實你也有回答說所以沒有說北捷的警察現場無線電是不通的情況"},{"start":5325.305,"end":5327.046,"text":"也沒有說他們因為無線電不通而造成他們沒有辦法掌握台北捷運的情況是這樣子嗎我們依據台北市的這個調查是沒有無線電不通的問題"},{"start":5337.233,"end":5363.396,"text":"因為在網路上盛傳我也希望署長在這邊明確的闢謠也好告訴大家你們無線電系統設備這方面是沒有問題的也好因為網路上都說其實北捷的捷運系統他們北捷在巡邏的時候無線電就很常不通了還有人說這個什麼長期失靈我不知道到底有沒有這樣的情況請署長鄭重說明我想沒有這個問題因為北捷那個捷運的警察是有到場的"},{"start":5364.709,"end":5368.934,"text":"那無線電失靈就情侶沒辦法運作馬上就會知道了我想要在這裡做屁是沒有這個問題是每天生活的情侶的一個最重要的工具那不通平常就沒辦法執行了所以網路上在導傳說現場無線電不通我想說這很嚴重這不可能"},{"start":5384.952,"end":5408.826,"text":"好那第三個關於警力的配置跟人力負荷的問題因為大家也在檢討說是不是北捷的警察的配置人力不足因為大家討論說北捷其實有117個站但是總共外勤的員警只有168個那如果兩個人一組然後加上輪班的執勤在這117個站的警察大概不到80個"},{"start":5410.598,"end":5425.272,"text":"那會不會太少這個覆蓋率夠嗎請署長說明這個部分對於這個配置以及這個勤務的一個平均力也就是說他到場的一個平均力這個部分我們會來再去做檢討跟精進"},{"start":5427.13,"end":5455.293,"text":"那當然除了人力不足是一個很嚴重的問題之外當然勤務的分配也要拜託署長回去再檢討真的有太多警察都說有很多無謂的勤務啊然後很多其實導致他們在重大時間的時候沒有辦法處理重大優先的事情我希望可以回去精進這個部分讓警察可以著重在重要的業務上那最後一點我還是要幫基層的員警請命喔很多基層的警察跟我說"},{"start":5456.474,"end":5472.76,"text":"他們很多基本的配備都是自己買的到現在還是這樣包括說可能辣椒水啊包括警棍啊甚至有人連防彈背心都自己買那他們說要嘛是沒有發要嘛說是公發的這個品質真的太差"},{"start":5473.8,"end":5495.788,"text":"很常是這兩種 我想這個是這個是沒有這樣的一個狀況 我想我們就基層員警跟我講的什麼叫沒有這樣的情況就很多人跟我說他連密錄器也自己買辣椒水也自己買甚至好一點的警棍好一點的防彈背心可能都還要自己想辦法找到更好的他個人的行為啦"},{"start":5496.601,"end":5501.382,"text":"不是個人的行為我要我希望警政署當基層員警最強的後盾你們要給他們勇氣給他們當他們的後盾最好的方式就是給他們最好用我們的武器裝備設備都一定是會最安全然後會公發發給我們同仁來使用"},{"start":5513.746,"end":5537.527,"text":"那有些比如講像你的防彈衣你那個沒有透過測試你自己去買那是不安全的那我們公發的是透過這些測試安全的這個裝備那當然有些的這個個人使用的裝備我們未來就是為因應同等的使用的一個相關的便利性來做更加的一個加強的一個這樣的一個的裝備的一個購買"},{"start":5541.01,"end":5569.962,"text":"好 拜託署長正視這個問題給基層員警最好的工具 好不好謝謝好 謝謝黃婕委員的質詢接下來我們請張宏祿委員來 我請內政部劉部長 警政署長還有交通部務政次請你上"},{"start":5573.572,"end":5601.227,"text":"我們今天大家都用沉痛的心情來這邊質詢我想先請教署長在這一次在台北車站裡面發生了這件事情我想問一下台北車站這一棟大樓裡面高鐵是什麼警察負責?高鐵是鐵路警察局然後呢?台北市政府警察局"},{"start":5601.775,"end":5615.394,"text":"然後呢 車站的大廳呢車站大廳是鐵路警察局車站的外面呢台北市政府警察局就同一棟大樓有三個單位在負責是不是這樣兩"},{"start":5619.501,"end":5638.112,"text":"兩個單位啦就是鐵路前台北市政府檢察局那你捷運檢察局咧那台北市的也是啊我對啊就兩個單位是兩個單位但台北市政府就管起來兩個單位了嘛對不對一個捷運檢察局一個外面的一般警察嘛"},{"start":5638.692,"end":5641.074,"text":"所以其實以前就有說過同樣一個這樣子其實問題會很多"},{"start":5656.926,"end":5679.515,"text":"那像這一次的事件我個人是認為有的人主張像什麼就要發什麼細胞簡訊或什麼我個人認為這還有商圈不過如果像有這種事情發生的時候我們警察的系統裡面能不能自己發給自己警察系統"},{"start":5681.577,"end":5694.757,"text":"現在有什麼特殊情況發生 怎麼樣怎麼樣第一時間讓他們知道因為你們除了無線電之外我覺得這個也是另外一個然後也讓所有的警察都知道包括幹部 包括基層警察"},{"start":5695.836,"end":5715.25,"text":"委員這個沒問題了一發生我們就通報了就是說橫向聯繫的各相關單位所以我在第一時間我就通報不是只有通報台北市通報全國因為它是一個流動的啦我知道啦你的通報但現在很多人會覺得你們的通報好像有點小小的瑕疵嘛"},{"start":5716.11,"end":5741.085,"text":"對不對剛剛有委員在質詢我們都有聽到我只問啦這樣子可不可以啦有沒有可能做得到啦有沒有必須做到啦我想我們的警察單位對於發生這個案件那除了除了就是說當地的這個圍捕之外其他做招臨近的我們的警察機關跟外勤的執勤統領是會做通報的不"},{"start":5745.6,"end":5762.427,"text":"我剛剛說的如果細胞簡訊給所有警察你覺得有沒有需要做到就是用手機的細胞的這種對啦有沒有再必要再加強這個我想我們的實務面可能最快的還是以無線電這樣來通報會最快不見得他當時拿的手機"},{"start":5766.368,"end":5785.91,"text":"就這個 這個可能要再研究好啦 沒關係你回去研究啦你的無線電通報我不相信坐在裡面的警察局局長他一定都有收到他的無線電他有隨時配在身邊嗎報告員那個通報是勤子中心會通報通報之後就會報告這個就是會有落差嘛"},{"start":5787.026,"end":5804.387,"text":"對不對你敢承認沒有落差嗎你敢說都沒有落差嗎我想這個一定是我們的規範這個是我們的是啦現在就跟你講補不足的地方嘛有沒有需要你回去研究那這部分我們拿回去研究再來這個"},{"start":5808.266,"end":5822.995,"text":"有沒有 我們台灣雖然對這個突發狀況我也不認為這個是要把它界定成恐怖攻擊了因為台灣在恐怖攻擊裡面排名還是很那個也不算是恐怖攻擊但我們要有危機意識"},{"start":5824.301,"end":5847.691,"text":"我請交通部上來就是說交通部我們未來有沒有透過AI透過什麼我們只要在任何車站或什麼我們不要去辨識人也不要辨識如果有騷動有快速的人群的移動或什麼的我們這個馬上AI系統然後就可以連結警察然後這樣子來讓警察第一時間也可以掌握"},{"start":5848.511,"end":5867.524,"text":"對 我想這部分做不做得到我想剛有關心到這個問題我想我剛提到我們大概兩個月後我們也會後續去看因為過去我們其實曾經曾經要想做一些影像的辨識你們在台中的豐原火車站其實就有這套設備了嘛但是那時候對不對因為監察也有"},{"start":5868.244,"end":5896.905,"text":"是啦 因為是因為人權嘛那我們現在不是要你去做人臉做什麼辨識嘛對特殊的情況一發生馬上 其實AI現在都可以處理啦對不對 有人群的騷動有火有什麼的馬上就可以跟警察連線啊是 這個我們來做研議好不好剛剛講的 因為在這個人權這個之間 取得一個平衡我剛剛提到也跟那個前面我也提到我們兩個也去做一個研議這樣子"},{"start":5898.245,"end":5926.144,"text":"好 這個我特別請你上來 就是署長你有沒有覺得如果未來有這套系統然後讓警察也第一個時間掌握你覺得這樣子會不會比較好我覺得很好很好啦 好那再來啦每次發生的像這種事情哇 基層警察承受的壓力也很大啦剛剛這個委員有質詢有什麼"},{"start":5928.516,"end":5952.213,"text":"署長 我們現在警察的基本教育基本的訓練有沒有特別像這種我再說一次不算恐怖攻擊但這種隨機這一種的我們有沒有在我們的警察從不管警專警大我們上課裡面有沒有特別教這些"},{"start":5954.155,"end":5968.067,"text":"實務上對於這個重大人安的一個這個狀況那我們警察單位是有在做這個訓練的那未來這個的狀況我們把這個重大人的"},{"start":5969.028,"end":5992.735,"text":"我直接講啦 有沒有可能把未來像這種的列入基本的課材基本的要 會 一定會一定會 會把它列入課材這應該很快吧 不管是在警專或警大會列為這個警察實務的這個教材對嘛 應該馬上就可以要求了嘛馬上就可以做了嘛我希望能夠做到這一點啦不要讓基層的警察遇到這個 你看"},{"start":5994.255,"end":6003.9,"text":"他有心要保護人民但他可能對這些基本的他可能也沒遇過啊上課也沒教啊我覺得一定要教啦好不好可以嗎可以我最後"},{"start":6008.877,"end":6030.49,"text":"全世界各國的警察他的職務的內容其實都不一樣署長你應該很清楚像以色列的警察對這種恐怖攻擊或什麼的他是基本職責是不是對嘛那其實美國還有很多國家慢慢的警察其實都基本職責都有這些了吧"},{"start":6031.03,"end":6054.599,"text":"是吧所以台灣雖然不是受恐怖攻擊這種國家但我們要預防於未來還有像這種突發狀況我們的警察我希望在他上課的時候就都要教他要讓他有這個基礎的素養可以嗎可以我們都希望他每個同仁都有防恐的這個素養"},{"start":6056.199,"end":6075.174,"text":"對啦 他不只保護人民也要保護警察自己啊第一線衝鋒的人你不讓他有這種基本的訓練跟認知你是害他亂衝而已啊你要保護我們基層的安全嘛 好不好好 那明年可以開始了嗎"},{"start":6075.874,"end":6092.766,"text":"可以 我們會以這個案件做一個案例就是會加強這些署長我的意思不是這樣不是以這個案例我的意思是說你去看全世界有那麼多以色列什麼的你去拿人家的教材你就把它當成基本的我們會來訓練可以 明年部長要說"},{"start":6102.932,"end":6106.715,"text":"其實反恐跟防恐教育在警察是屬於專業警察"},{"start":6131.652,"end":6148.511,"text":"那這次呢有媒體上面看到基層警員上面這樣子的一個情緒上我也是有慰問他我認為說警察的正辦就是做好我們警察的要務那有人會推崇你那也許有人也會有不同的聲音但是我們做我們應該做的事情這是警察的責任"},{"start":6149.366,"end":6175.777,"text":"沒有錯啦你看我今天的質詢我從來沒有說警察我還是替他們說話他們的辛苦很多人不知道但我們要做他最充足的後備從開始進入學校然後到現在我們要讓我們未來的我們的警察弟兄有這些基本的常識有這些基本的訓練那也保護他的安全也保護全國人民的安全那請委員支持檢討的預算我最支持啦謝謝"},{"start":6180.95,"end":6192.824,"text":"謝謝張宏祿委員的資訊 接下來我們請李柏鈺委員發言警政署張署長有請張署長委員好"},{"start":6198.78,"end":6218.731,"text":"謝謝 署長那個所有案情的部分如果說已經公開的可以講的部分再來請署長多對社會說明我這幾天其實都不敢在家裡都不敢開電視小朋友看了這個電視我覺得有一些畫面才實在是太可怕尤其是那個歧視等等的但是我"},{"start":6219.639,"end":6238.408,"text":"一直專注到一個畫面就是我們剛剛也有其他委員也有質詢就是我們的同仁大概我看到一共好像有七個到八個左右進入到這個成品的那個樓梯間要這個嫌犯進去大概前後時間離了大概三分鐘"},{"start":6240.279,"end":6256.428,"text":"就很多人檢討包含我想有很多基層員檢討就是可能我也看到中山所的所長說難道一定要有警察的死傷 受傷大家才會給予警察關懷嗎大家比較想要講的就是我看到的好像是一個狀況"},{"start":6258.188,"end":6274.586,"text":"在我們的消防法在修法的時候我們也都希望消防人員進入火場之前整個火場的狀況有沒有化學物質有沒有什麼危險物質消防人員要知道要知道怎麼樣來控制這一場火警"},{"start":6276.246,"end":6297.536,"text":"當時的警員知不知道我們裡面發生的狀況他有什麼武器包含我們去的人剛剛署長也有很詳細的說明有的是剛從交通哨剛下來或者是有的剛下班去到現場應該要怎麼樣處置我想這些都是讓社會大眾為或者是我們基層員警為他們的同仁"},{"start":6298.676,"end":6313.272,"text":"捏了一把冷汗的原因在這裡那署長這些相關的這些說明然後包含你剛剛也有說在無線電上面的這些資訊現場的掌握程度我們未來的改進方向署長要不要做一個說明"},{"start":6314.174,"end":6330.143,"text":"對 那謝謝委員就是警察去處理的狀況最重要就是現場的狀況資訊一定要明確一定要明確以便於我們同時的攜帶的裝備跟處置這個部分未來一定是會再加強訓練"},{"start":6331.764,"end":6351.474,"text":"那對於這些裝備的一個平常的一個一個保養跟維持這些討戰這個一定是會去做管理可能有兩個三個同仁他們是有配槍的可能會在前面後面警棍的可能會在後面等等的這些臨時突發的狀況不是做第一線的因為"},{"start":6354.395,"end":6381.595,"text":"他們是掌握這個第一時間給他領裝備給他們那個又跑了我覺得其實也謝謝委員今天對我們警察的肯定也謝謝我們那位首長的這個把這個當時的這個狀況我們一心一念就是為了我們民眾要防止其他的傷害為了警察的這個使命去做這件事情那當然就好像我們這個"},{"start":6383.536,"end":6402.736,"text":"北捷那個奮勇的那個那個余先生其實如果說他當時是知道是躲跟跑那這個是可以維護他的生命如果說在知道歹徒的狀況他是不應該去做這件事我們是非常遺憾真的是遺憾那警察的心態"},{"start":6403.837,"end":6409.14,"text":"其實也跟這個余先生也不亞於這個未來我覺得就是說我們警政的這個工作對於訊息的正確一定要正確然後處置的這個其他的裝備各方面能夠第一時間能夠去做一個應用這個部分未來可能要加強來做一個訓練"},{"start":6423.406,"end":6447.719,"text":"謝謝署長其實總統在隔天其實也到去跟你們了解這些案情那其實政府現在最重要包含警政署現在最重要的事情就是要安民心接下來耶誕然後接下來跨年接下來過年前這麼多的這些活動要怎麼樣安民心那我講一下比如說當時"},{"start":6450.18,"end":6474.78,"text":"雖然我們警政署現在我們台灣現在是恐攻低度危險的國家但是其實在我心裡我把它定位成台灣型的恐攻那面對這種恐攻其實剛剛部長有講我們有保字頭的保警類那保警類在我們去年度審保二預算的時候其實我們就針對國家重點重要設施的這些相關的這些配備"},{"start":6475.561,"end":6492.443,"text":"我們給予高度的支持讓警政署可以做這一方面的採購就是國家韌性各縣市政府的保安警察隊其實我也建議警政署要在接下來的這些大型的活動裡面"},{"start":6493.564,"end":6521.523,"text":"要讓人民看到讓人民看到政府對這些活動的安全的用心那這些保安警察大隊等等的我們對於他們的這些相關設備預算的支持我們也是給足那希望可以在活動現場內都可以讓人民看到我們有這個決心之外那給予警察同仁相關的這些足夠的配備這也是我們必須要支持的"},{"start":6522.383,"end":6537.182,"text":"好謝謝委員那我們這個為因應就是一直到像年底跨年或者耶誕甚至過年期間我們在禮拜六跟禮拜天部長跟我本人就是對於"},{"start":6538.543,"end":6562.555,"text":"總共有22個警察局的局長對這樣的一個盤點跟計畫那未來就是會對這個現場的這個委員家長這個部署同時我們中央跟地方委一起來努力如果地方的這個警力不足我們中央也會來做支援那同時也會納入社會的體系比如講像這些的民力民防疫警疫交以及保全"},{"start":6564.196,"end":6589.474,"text":"共同來參與那我們一定是讓會場整個的維安讓民眾能夠心安那我們會展現決心跟能力來執行這樣的一個工作其實大家沒有注意其實在今年度從10月以後在美國在澳洲都有發生一些這些類似恐怖攻擊的事件但是因為他們的國家比較特殊他們槍枝多"},{"start":6591.007,"end":6617.145,"text":"就澳洲那一起好像超過10個人以上罹難那也有一對夫妻他是想要去把他槍搶下來但是很不幸的這一對夫妻就是第一對罹難的那所以面對所有的這些危險的時候如果手上沒有武器那真的逃躲第三個才戰那希望警察警政署可以"},{"start":6617.725,"end":6626.771,"text":"充足我們所有警察同仁第一線警察同仁的這些設備配備那第一時間可以保護到所有人民的安全謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝李博義委員的質詢接下來我們請麥玉珍委員發問謝謝主席"},{"start":6646.74,"end":6664.056,"text":"各位同仁大家好 執行時間有限但還是先請大家借給我10秒鐘為這次北捷的中山商圈隨機殺人案件無辜罹難的民眾以及建議勇為的市民默哀10秒鐘謝謝"},{"start":6675.166,"end":6680.912,"text":"謝謝大家有請我們的警政署署長有請張署長委員好署長好為什麼要這樣做是我們每天經過的路啦真的"},{"start":6697.342,"end":6716.966,"text":"這一次北捷中山商圈隨機殺人的事發當下嫌犯頭戴防堵面罩身上也穿了背心防制背心又拖著一整箱的煙霧彈這麼明顯突兀的裝扮走進北捷站"},{"start":6721.929,"end":6744.327,"text":"無人發現盤查讓他先在台北車站丟煙霧彈並車傷見義勇為的市民後再採用步行的方式花了一個小時徒行徒步走向中山山圈繼續在承平南西店作案這段時間警方"},{"start":6747.929,"end":6773.276,"text":"應接後多起通報分批前往無法待一滴時間掌握犯險的行蹤阻止傷亡擴大我們未來還有什麼能夠改進的措施或者制度另外作案用M18的煙霧彈並非一般民生用品"},{"start":6774.016,"end":6790.268,"text":"要請教我們警方是否已經掌控他熟悉的管道還有說必要從源頭與網路的平台加強管制避免危險物品流入社會"},{"start":6791.549,"end":6809.404,"text":"基層警方已經非常辛苦了我們不是責怪而是要補制度的漏洞我們要請署長就是具體的說明未來如何讓警方更早一步也讓人民更安心一步"},{"start":6810.486,"end":6834.926,"text":"好 謝委員我想任何的這個案件能夠第一時間去做這個處置防止那我剛才也都提過就是說有發現狀況有報案 報案要快我們的同仁到場要快 處置要快那能夠防止這些這個狀況往外去做一個更不可預控的情形"},{"start":6835.595,"end":6857.003,"text":"那為所提的就是這個煙霧彈的這個狀況我們目前初步了解他是從網路上過的就是網路過的那至於這個煙霧彈目前不是管制物品不是管制物品那未來我們可能也會做來研究是不是在從源頭來做管理比如講像登記制什麼這類這個我們來做研究"},{"start":6859.775,"end":6886.477,"text":"很好因為我們希望是說有什麼措施什麼就是制度還有就是要管制不管是地方還是網路所以呢因為雖然是目前已經提高就是說決應站的見景率加強我們巡查但依照目前調查"},{"start":6887.441,"end":6909.436,"text":"就是犯嫌以刻意模仿2014年的北捷隨機殺人案要請教我們的署長 第一對於這類具高度模仿的風險也可依側行為模式的重大公共安全的案件警政署是否張"},{"start":6912.45,"end":6927.341,"text":"重疊的特徵 納入常態性例行性的警務風險評估還有就是刑防的制度 第二如何避免社會警惕逐漸下降後讓模範案就是"},{"start":6931.864,"end":6956.362,"text":"有可趁之機 早空窗期第三 圖了提高建警力警政署是否已經有跨捷運警政社會安全網的長期長期的預設防範策略而不是就是現在發生短期的加強"},{"start":6958.477,"end":6973.357,"text":"有沒有委員那我想對於這個這個案件我們現在初步看起來是有模仿這個政協的這個狀況那這些都是我們"},{"start":6974.698,"end":6988.229,"text":"對遠景訓練的一個就是未來執勤的一個教育的方式不管在訓練裝備或演練我們會朝這樣方面來做制度上的一個精進"},{"start":6989.178,"end":7011.054,"text":"那第二部分就是說方針案件之後我們希望我們的國人不要去做模仿我們這段期間你有發現大概有目前為止有22件的在網路上的這個有這樣的一個狀況那我們對這樣的一個行為我一定要就是要跟全國人民這個是犯法的"},{"start":7011.614,"end":7036.633,"text":"所以我們現在目前只要是國內的到目前已經超過三個來移送偵辦這個是會影響我們的社會民心我們也呼籲我們國人不要去以身試法也不要把它當作一個稀釋如果說當作稀釋但是你這個狀況也是違法的第三個部分就是說"},{"start":7038.241,"end":7065.397,"text":"這個案件我們當然去會檢討整體那這個整體的狀況當然還有一些治本的一個狀況比如剛剛所提的社會安全網那就是要從根本要跟其他我們會結合其他相關部會來一起來解決我們這個類似這些高風險的這些反社會人格的這種狀況來及早的做應驗跟預防或者是去做處置那我們檢方這個區塊是"},{"start":7068.339,"end":7075.478,"text":"案件發生之後我們去做處置那源頭的部分我們會結合其他相關部會來一起努力"},{"start":7077.245,"end":7098.153,"text":"好 謝謝因為要用多一點時間讓我們的署長去回應我們希望今天聽到的就是可以有可持續可複製制度化的防範方案這樣的話讓人民更安心所以才讓你多講一點時間 不好意思再請我們的衛福部的次長再給我一點時間"},{"start":7110.575,"end":7130.402,"text":"委員好市長好我們都認同基本的警察真的很辛苦所以政府更加強做到的就是預防剩餘治療社會安全網的計畫從民國107年的推動現在已經升級到"},{"start":7131.062,"end":7133.784,"text":"2.0了但是發生這樣子的BG仍然發生所以非常遺憾的也高度的關注所以我們這名嫌犯過去是否準備納入社會安全網的列管和關懷的對象"},{"start":7151.729,"end":7172.043,"text":"非常感謝委員的一個垂詢我剛剛也向委員報告本案並不是屬於社安網過去通報的機制我跟委員報告他並沒有典型通報的指標他也沒有之前任何求助的紀錄"},{"start":7173.324,"end":7193.669,"text":"這裡面我們也 我覺得剛剛署長也有說在源頭的部分 我們社安網這邊會來進行相關的一個檢討這裡面包括就是說 萬萬委員也知道我們的社安網的過去主要事實上是針對幾個對象典型的世界各國的社安網 包括貧窮"},{"start":7194.969,"end":7223.766,"text":"家庭暴力 兒虐 身心障礙藥酒飲 還有精神疾病這個我並然後我們在現在社安網裡面我們現在又擴充兩類第一個是獨居老人第二個是就是這一個比較可能高風險的一個家庭這裡面它的現行的通報機制譬如說我們剛剛說的就是說可能社會孤立等等這些部分我們會來本部會來加強這方面的一個演繹"},{"start":7224.386,"end":7237.24,"text":"好好謝謝我們市長如果沒有就是我們是都沒有被列入所以因為這個原因就是導致也落掉他了所以呢我們希望的如何去加強改進還有相關單位的通報還有追蹤介入機制還有我們就是要確實的"},{"start":7247.272,"end":7250.88,"text":"啟動 避免再有更多的落網之魚 這個是我們我們想要知道的 因為時間的關係 最後就是我要強調的說"},{"start":7257.743,"end":7286.906,"text":"對於突發這個案件後政府與社會第一要件就只有一個就是及時止血還有就是阻止傷亡的擴大迅速依法集中還有任何資訊的傳播都應以協助緊立方案穩定社會秩序的為前提而不是就是未經查證"},{"start":7287.466,"end":7289.616,"text":"採測"},{"start":7290.273,"end":7316.598,"text":"捕風抓影還有貼標籤的還有這些錯誤的信息不只無助我們的破案反而製造恐慌甚至煽動族群的仇恨傷害無辜對於網路上的一些扭曲為第五縱隊還有散播方案的身份遙遠甚至在社群平台揚言發動"},{"start":7319.4,"end":7347.245,"text":"恐攻的行為還有人還有謠言傳說犯人是陸配的新二代我們真的很肯定相關部會在第一個時間我們陸委會出面澄清也譴責有心人士藉不心這個事件激發對立更重要的是制度面必須要"},{"start":7350.446,"end":7374.304,"text":"因此本席要求警政署與衛福部針對警力的協調危機的處理社會安全網的高度風險個案的通報機制在一週內是不是可以提出檢討還有改善的計畫報告我也要提醒警力有限"},{"start":7375.265,"end":7386.054,"text":"我們的名利無從 社會安全網不是靠仇恨堆壘而是靠理性守法與彼此信任共同完成拒絕謠言停止"},{"start":7392.048,"end":7399.794,"text":"也停止要應用這樣子的話就是要真的有很多網路我覺得網路不只是造謠不只是分類還有很多讓我們覺得說這個網路的生態真的是無法無天也要社會大眾支持大家千萬別"},{"start":7412.583,"end":7433.29,"text":"就是被這樣不實的誤打全民有義務責任共同維護社會和諧避免紮身社會分化這也是我們守護台灣最基本最重要的一道防線 謝謝大家謝謝 謝謝麥玉珍委員接下來請黃建斌召委"},{"start":7444.2,"end":7470.376,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請內政部劉部長跟警政署長署長請內政部劉部長還有警政署長署長委員好署長好 部長好首先我們本期要針對這一次這個計劃性的攻擊事件向所有的受害者以及家屬表達哀悼我們希望適者安息 傷者康復台灣一切平安我要向所有警消"},{"start":7471.716,"end":7477.045,"text":"醫護人員以及每一位互相幫忙的市民英雄朋友們表達最高的敬意"},{"start":7478.288,"end":7507.39,"text":"面對重大的治安事件我想絕對不分縣市也沒有分中央跟地方而且我們國人都非常想知道我們的政府到底做哪些的精進跟檢討這個也是本席為什麼會變更一層邀請各部會到立法院來進行專案報告我們就希望能夠跨部會來通盤檢討從悲劇中得到教訓我們希望未來這樣的憾事不要再發生"},{"start":7508.803,"end":7535.203,"text":"那另外我在這邊也要向各部會的公務同仁們致謝辛苦各位在這麼短的時間內準備相關的說明資料那國務院都非常的期盼希望聽到政府相關的說法跟作為首先我要先請教我們劉部長就是在這一次的攻擊事件當中有一位57歲的這個余家常先生勇敢挺身而出用他的生命阻止歹徒讓傷亡減低"},{"start":7536.064,"end":7560.759,"text":"那許多民眾都希望說能夠讓余先生能夠入市我們中壢市那台北市長蔣安也說會協助向中央來申請同時會在捷運一些適當的地點來設計這個紀念碑表達對余先生的敬意那因此我想要請教部長說中央是不是願意比照之前我們在花蓮救災的時候這個挖土機超人林鴻生先生以符合冒險犯難"},{"start":7561.859,"end":7575.313,"text":"壯烈承認這個要件讓余先生也能夠入市中烈池 請部長問答謝謝昭緯的關心我想昭緯跟很多委員都關心這個事情第一個我們的立場非常的清楚第一個就是我們尊重家屬"},{"start":7576.536,"end":7598.819,"text":"那再來就是這個蔣市長也提到因為在當時我也跟蔣市長提到有這樣子的部分那蔣市長也對外發言所以我們非常認同那現在的處理的方式就是因為這個余先生他好像原籍是在桃園那如果桃園市政府願意按照就是剛剛黃委員所說的產值超人這個方式的話我們會來全力協助"},{"start":7599.039,"end":7618.898,"text":"好 謝謝部長非常正面的回應那我相信這件事情之後絕對是我們全國國人共同的期盼我們希望內政部這邊趕快來協助來表達我們國家對這一位英雄的這個敬意那接下來我想要跟署長來反映就是在攻擊事件之後有很多人在網路上開始分娩"},{"start":7619.779,"end":7645.651,"text":"點名說 奧吉威 戈陽車站 阿台中 新光 三越這個下一個地點那種預言式的犯人那種東西造成民眾的恐慌深怕又會出現這種隨機攻擊的事件那另外網路上還有很多的表演像剛才麥曾維提到說什麼這個歹徒的媽媽是陸配啦這個還有什麼還有一個民進黨的前參選立委的參選人說這個應該是第五縱隊引發許多的側翼跟這個造謠跟進"},{"start":7648.592,"end":7670.277,"text":"那這樣子散佈恐慌讓這件事情說說這件事就是這件事是阿共的陰謀所以說警方已經公開說這個案件是我們一起一人犯案沒有共犯的問題嘛那陸委會也出面來澄清說所謂的陸配二代並不是事實這個批評他說這個是借事件來激化衝突因此本席想要請教署長"},{"start":7671.417,"end":7686.202,"text":"現在幫樓店館刻意的造謠的這些言論造成社會恐慌警政署是不是應該主動就來調查避免這種言論造成社會的持續動盪不安我們第一時間到今天早上6點為止發現有22件的這種造謠那已經查獲事件"},{"start":7691.104,"end":7709.581,"text":"那這個造謠是會造成民眾的恐慌真的是非常要不得所以我們從案件發生一直到現在都持續第一時間只要發現狀況第一個一定是要讓這個的狀況就是如果網路上有一些網路就是要下架再來就進入偵查那偵查的這部分只要是在國內的"},{"start":7710.962,"end":7717.127,"text":"一定第一時間就會查獲移送來做偵辦以遏止這種這個遙遠的這個狀況來做發生這個針對這樣的假訊息我們務必要加強來查緝我們立刻全力來做那最後一個問題我想要請我們交通部次長"},{"start":7735.109,"end":7758.474,"text":"那個部長跟市長先休息市長 最後一個問題本席要跟你談就是說這次事件發生的地點是在捷運系統那為了確保民眾能夠安心安全交通部這次也必須要協同其他的部會我們針對整個大眾運輸系統這個規劃相關的這個防範措施特別是針對我們台鐵那今年也發生多起暴力事件"},{"start":7759.574,"end":7780.904,"text":"可是我們台鐵目前的鐵路警察就減少6%那使得這個乘務人員的他的負擔安全的維護的這個壓力更重那關於這一點我想要請教我們交通部有沒有什麼因應的作為我想剛提到的話在台鐵部分他確實因為他目前主要負責的警力是鐵路警察局"},{"start":7781.601,"end":7806.41,"text":"那這部分因為他人力也不是那麼夠但是這部分我們其實有做一些包括我們的保全我們的員工另外我們針對幾個車站的部分有些可能是跟當地沒有所謂的陸警所的部分我們跟當地的地方派出所或警察局有做這樣一個聯防的機制這項我們會來持續來加強好感謝市長的回答現在本社的問題"},{"start":7808.507,"end":7822.232,"text":"市長 其實東部地區的鐵路啊佔領跟佔領之間的距離都很長行車時間也很久是那是說真的不適宜萬一就發生這樣的衝突的事件等到外圍警察趕到現場的時候恐怕都來不及"},{"start":7823.152,"end":7839.982,"text":"那我想車廂上的這個人員絕對要有足夠的應變能力那本席有注意到新聞就是說高鐵的這個座椅可以拆下來當作盾牌來使用那我想要請教次長就是對於針對我們台鐵的這個車廂的治安的維護那尤其是針對這種長距離的這種路線有沒有相關因應的應變作為"},{"start":7844.464,"end":7860.787,"text":"我想我們也可以來做一下演繹剛講因為他的台鐵路線車班相當的多這部分我們會針對比較風險比較高的路段來做一些比如說有一些防備的一些措施或是設備我們來進行補強"},{"start":7861.768,"end":7880.737,"text":"市長你看像我們的東部幹線每個站點都這麼距離都這麼遠然後中途甚至經過地方他其實並沒有什麼人是那這樣真的發生問題的時候這個要先想好要不然那真的都不會有啦後來都會發生啊所以我要叫代理公司一步我們來做一下研議看怎麼來補強這一塊"},{"start":7882.308,"end":7897.463,"text":"市長這個因為我想大家印象還有深刻之前南緯高軌案發生的地點仿山那個地方真的荒蕪人煙那高危群真的都被處理了那我想這個絕對不是危險聳聽像這一次的這個恐攻的這個攻擊事件"},{"start":7898.504,"end":7918.513,"text":"真的沒有人想到會發生這種事情所以我們相關部門真的要防範於未來我們建物給一份的輸客我們變成給一份安全那本期最後一個提出一些具體的建議就是說我想請內政部 警政署 交通部等相關部會針對人潮密集的大眾運輸系統制定突發攻擊事件的應變SOP"},{"start":7919.713,"end":7946.38,"text":"那定期的舉辦過跨機關聯合演訓還有講座我們提升我們整個治安的維護的能力預防犯罪之外也要強化我們當事件發生當下的應變能力將傷害減到最低這邊要請各部會務必來競速來研議並在兩週內提供一份報告給本席的辦公室那我們希望天佑台灣希望台灣一切平安謝謝主席 謝謝大家"},{"start":7948.604,"end":7949.484,"text":"接下來我們請徐宇甄委員發言"},{"start":7979.715,"end":7985.326,"text":"謝謝昭緯我們請內政部劉部長跟警政署張署長請劉部長 張署長歡迎好"},{"start":7989.35,"end":8008.485,"text":"主長好部長好我想今天其實是一個非常這個哀痛的一個日子因為19號發生這樣的一個一個隨機攻擊的事件造成我們有4死11傷的這個傷亡那當然現在還有一些傷者在這個醫院裡還在急救當中"},{"start":8009.666,"end":8032.731,"text":"我們當然也希望說他能夠早日康復但是這都是已經發生的事情我們現在要去找援的應該是未來要怎麼樣來去做尤其是現在大家都在質疑就是說他從嫌犯張文從3點40分在林森林森跟長安那邊縱火開始到他5點23分到北捷投放煙霧彈"},{"start":8036.152,"end":8060.746,"text":"然後再到6點37分到中山的這個成品這犯案的時間非常的長可是呢目前看起來是我們的這個整個的一個過程好像沒有辦法及時的來去反映當然我想我們的基層警力非常的辛苦那是不是在這過程中是不是因為警力不足因為我知道說我們其實捷運警察目前就是整個總共只有100"},{"start":8064.757,"end":8086.752,"text":"216位負責117站的巡邏業務那尖峰時期事實上只有42位在執勤所以顯然的就是人力是嚴重的不足那當然呢這個部分的話最重要的我想是未來的一個要怎麼面對這樣子的一個隨機殺人的事件警政署這邊有沒有研擬未來要怎麼樣來去預防"},{"start":8088.153,"end":8107.99,"text":"這個捷運隊的這個警力當然未來就是會再去因為他的戰體蠻長的就是戰場也蠻多的那當然這個每個地方都布點的警力我們再去這個平均我們會再去做再去做再去做精進那不過我是覺得可以建立就是說除了警力以外"},{"start":8108.951,"end":8138.121,"text":"就是說這個營運單位對於保全的這個增加的一個聘用也是未來一個方向中央跟地方大家要一起共同來研擬針對我們這麼大的一個運量這麼多的人員進出的一個不管是捷運站或高鐵或是這個台鐵有這麼多的人尤其是當天其實看起來是大家的尤其包括民眾的警覺性也是不夠"},{"start":8138.681,"end":8155.985,"text":"所以造成這樣子其實大家都看到已經看到他丟煙霧彈了到通報到後續還有到中山站去我們可以看到就是說其實大家我們的我覺得民眾的警覺性也是不足大家也必須要來在這方面我就要做一些加強來去做一些訓練那當然我想在這次的這個"},{"start":8160.506,"end":8176.49,"text":"這個北捷的隨機攻擊事件當中我覺得大家現在最擔心的就是說可能會引發模仿效應那尤其是確實最近這幾天都有不只是網路上然後實體上也都看到有一些模仿的效應那尤其是我們這種隨機殺人的重大事件大概是7到14天是模仿行為風險最高的窗口期"},{"start":8184.432,"end":8203.651,"text":"那所以說政府必須立即啟動這個降溫的機制就是應該要避免過度重播行兇的細節不呈現動線時間點跟武器取得的方式第二個避免英雄化或妖魔化加害者不公佈姓名過度背景挖掘請問部長這兩點目前有做到嗎"},{"start":8205.021,"end":8223.296,"text":"非常謝謝委員的提醒所以我們在週末期間已經通令也要求全台灣22個縣市的警察局包括他們的刑事局都對於這些所謂會過度渲染甚至有把這個行兇的歹徒就這個英雄化的這個部分要特別加強"},{"start":8224.136,"end":8236.804,"text":"在網路的查查跟巡邏上面的已經有看到部分的成效當然對於境外的勢力如果有透過網路來做攻擊的話我們會在第一時間內趕快做回應但是也要跟委員報告就是說我們要謝謝這兩天這個媒體來報導的時候並沒有過度渲染這個歹徒讓他英雄化變成有模仿犯我們現在要去討論的就是說未來的我剛剛講7到14天是一個高峰期就是希望能夠避免模仿"},{"start":8253.253,"end":8277.155,"text":"當然就這個部分我剛講到就是說事實上民眾的教育也很重要所以我們之前有出了一本台灣全民安全指引其實這一次的隨機攻擊已經是第三期了在之前的北捷還有台中另外這是第三期了為什麼在我們的小局書裡面都沒有提到這有關相關這種隨機攻擊的預防措施"},{"start":8279.537,"end":8287.702,"text":"是我想我們在下一次再更新的時候呢會把這個再把它如列進去表示說在目前這一本其實正對這個已經發生了這個這是第三次了其實是相當的嚴重的一個這樣子的一個隨機攻擊的事情其實照理說應該在全民安全執行裡面這也是相當重要的我們也謝謝委員會推廣這本小局書那我們下次我是覺得我們既然花這麼多錢來印這本小局書"},{"start":8306.815,"end":8319.301,"text":"所以他的作用他所能夠提供的訊息應該是最全面性的尤其是這是第三次這不是第一次所以在這部分我覺得我們花了這麼多錢就是希望能夠達到效果還是希望內政部能夠針對這個小局書這一次的這個印製之後他的這個各項的這個效益或是引發的這個"},{"start":8331.577,"end":8344.103,"text":"各項的一個能夠帶來的我們這個警示還有缺乏的部分應該做一個好好的評估絕對不能浪費人民的公帑那另外呢我在這邊也要這個請教這個部長就是因為其實剛剛也都有很多委員提到就是說我們這一次因為瑜伽廠先生他的這個捨己救人所以讓我們這個因為他在這個投擲在這個張文耀被點燃汽油彈之時他是捨身去"},{"start":8360.45,"end":8376.094,"text":"去阻止他那當然他也是用生命安全來守護我們的公共安全所以說完全符合中列辭事辦法的第3條第1項第9款所稱的其他中正事及足經官事者請問部長認不認同"},{"start":8378.175,"end":8406.097,"text":"是 我剛有跟委員回顧過就是說第一個我們尊重家屬的意願之後會來全力協助是 那因為在這邊部長本席的具體的建議就是請內政部其實可以依法啟動這個認定的程序那也送請這個如果家屬同意的話就送請我們中立慈的審議的這個機制來呈現評估並就這個提出一個具體的時程跟處理方式報告委員 上次這個產值超人的案例我們會聯絡桃園市政府"},{"start":8408.198,"end":8420.808,"text":"那桃園市政府的話他們開始幫家屬申請的時候我們就會很快做核定或是其他的協助的部分還是一樣我們希望能夠先尊重家屬那家屬如果同意的話我們就全力來協助那是不是請部長能夠盡速的啟動我會跟桃園市政府馬上聯絡是 謝謝"},{"start":8430.987,"end":8443.33,"text":"謝謝徐玉珍委員的發言在這邊跟委員會報告在牛許庭委員質詢完後我們休息5分鐘接著處理臨時提案接下來我們請徐清雲發言謝謝主席 本席有請劉部長張署長劉部長張署長"},{"start":8462.025,"end":8482.48,"text":"我想部長署長在公共場域發生這種暴力事件在台灣陸陸續續我們都看到所以上個禮拜五我們都很痛心所以今天本席不跟你們談政治攻防也不想聽什麼社會任性的口號"},{"start":8483.641,"end":8507.055,"text":"本席要來請教 我們對於整個的制度我們對於辨識風險 早期辨識 早期合法介入我們有沒有足夠好的制度只有安全的制度 民眾才能安全的活著否則民眾只能靠運氣所以本席首先問 現在我們在公共場域"},{"start":8509.531,"end":8514.545,"text":"有關這個暴力突發事件我們有沒有全國一致的SOP"},{"start":8516.314,"end":8538.685,"text":"現在有沒有訂定這個 全國有沒有共識我為什麼要這樣問馬上就是聖誕晚會的這種高峰期接著各縣市的跨年活動所以在這種公共場域發生這種暴力攻擊我們整個的相關單位有沒有全國一致性的SOP"},{"start":8541.707,"end":8559.864,"text":"那這個部分就是對於這個公共場域那公共場域有很多單位的一個當然包含運輸這次發生的運輸或者是其他的人多聚集的這個我們對於類似這個重大仁安是有一個演練跟SOP的所以對於"},{"start":8563.027,"end":8564.989,"text":"有全國移植的標準嗎那我請教有沒有訂定黃金抵達時間通報後幾分鐘要到誰該到"},{"start":8585.339,"end":8613.172,"text":"那這個部分就是快打的一個部隊是我們是有一些這個一個要求那比如講什麼要求啊我就問黃金抵達時間是多久可能在10分鐘以內去做抵達比如講像警力的一個一個整備比如講像類似這一種的到達的時間攜帶裝備各方面的一個狀況那未來我覺得就是說這個就是因為我們這個案子我們應該是要再去做後來的"},{"start":8613.752,"end":8636.564,"text":"未來的經濟那我剛才提到過的包含你剛有講10分鐘這個時間在不同的情況能不能縮短再來現場處置的SOP你從壓制到疏散到封控到醫療後送等等有沒有全國一致的標準我提一個架構就是說我剛才提的任何的狀況"},{"start":8637.805,"end":8662.016,"text":"我們第一個時間剛才提的一定是報案要快就是第一時間的訊息報案要快本來是我第二題我順便問你等到報案太慢了所以我們全國部長我們全國有沒有一件事的警報就是緊急按鈕的設置沒有我們沒有這樣剩餘警員的巡邏報案民眾第一個時間最迅速就是110"},{"start":8664.103,"end":8681.469,"text":"110的報案就是我們秦始中心就是會但是發生事情的時候如果有緊急按鈕那會更快速我們看那個影片很多人都還搞不清楚這個到底是有人在放煙火還是發生了什麼事大家觀望很久最後才發現"},{"start":8682.891,"end":8704.102,"text":"那個緊急按鈕可能也不見得是會去解決問題其實我們的這個受理的110是速度是最快的我覺得你不能說緊急按鈕在一些公共場域可以設置的當然在戶外可能很難但在公共場域這一個部分部長我覺得這個可能部長這個一定要建制"},{"start":8704.562,"end":8727.177,"text":"那個委員如果說是緊張就是可能各目的社會主管機關的一個機制那我現在提的這是全國式的就是民眾的發現第一時間就是八萬塊第二個就是剛剛委員所提的到場的速度要快再來第三個部分就是處置要快處置對所以我一直問處置的SOP你回答我一下處置的SOP全國有一致嗎"},{"start":8728.438,"end":8746.583,"text":"有訓練過嗎這個本來就是經常在做訓練不是說沒訓練演練頻率是多少有沒有誰驗收驗收不合格又如何判定那我們就是會則有各地方縣市警察局來處理部長署長這一塊真的要加強"},{"start":8747.503,"end":8762.13,"text":"因為現在社會的變化所以我們也很這個大家都不希望看到這種事件警察的辛苦我們也知道所以我接著接著我也要詢問就是說我們這個警察因為面臨這個社會的"},{"start":8764.071,"end":8779.484,"text":"这个变异啊我们有关快打或者受这种反恐训练听起来是很棒但是我们希望不要再用基层警察的停休和加班换取一时的政治的表演所以我们也要请"},{"start":8780.365,"end":8796.882,"text":"這個署長你在會後因為我今天的時間有限我們快打部隊的人力規劃是多少缺額又是多少我們訓練的時數夠不夠演練的頻率是多少裝備更新了沒有還有預算從哪裡來所以"},{"start":8799.097,"end":8816.626,"text":"署長今天回答也許讓我們大家很滿意可是這個背後的執行面還有包含我們不能壓榨我們基層的警力我們希望這個是真的有充足的經費充足的人力署長這樣可以嗎也謝謝委員支持警察的預算跟經費謝謝"},{"start":8818.647,"end":8831.491,"text":"你要先回答我我剛說的你會後一定要回覆我可以嗎好那接著請兩位先回座本席接下來要問衛福部好不好衛福部的代表我看一下好次長呂次長請呂次長次長我們"},{"start":8842.165,"end":8858.26,"text":"一樣針對衛福部這邊我們不希望制度是等到自傷傷人的事件出現了發生了公權利財介入所以有關制度漏接的孤立者請問衛福部有沒有相關的機制"},{"start":8859.281,"end":8887.417,"text":"是 報告委員我想我們本次事件確實暴露了我們現在就是說有一類是屬於我們剛剛說的高度突發性 但是非典型這類它有兩個特性第一個 它就承認孤立跟失聯風險我們的制度 我們現在衛福部這裡針對有一些可能應該家人或鄰里已經察覺它不對勁在它還沒有拿刀砍人之前我們政府所能做的最早期介入"},{"start":8888.377,"end":8911.342,"text":"你們有沒有這樣的一個怎麼樣的方式是 幫忙委員我現在先說我們現在傳統我們現在主要大概是針對像貧窮家暴還有像要酒飲等等這一類那像剛剛委員剛剛你所說的這一類我剛剛我也在回覆另外一位委員的時候我們也說到就是說這個所謂非典型的部分我們現在目前在三個月之內"},{"start":8913.082,"end":8939.012,"text":"邀集相關的一些專家學者來進行相關的一個整個這個部分的一個整個對象但是我要跟委員報告我們必須要把事件背後的風險因子我們現在必須要把它先先釐清沒關係像這些細節你們該釐清的釐清但是我們希望這個也還是一樣社會一直在變化所以現在變成生理生病的人他可能不會傷人但心理生病的人"},{"start":8939.372,"end":8967.567,"text":"他可能造成很多其他人的傷亡所以這一塊是新的課題我們認同也請衛福部一定要重視可以嗎那最後我想請部長也一起來還有衛福部我們針對這個是不是有一個主責的責任鏈也就是說有關社福醫療警政各自掌握零碎的訊號我們整體的整合有沒有這種責任鏈"},{"start":8969.13,"end":8996.582,"text":"是 幫委員 我們其實我們社安網裡面其實事實上就是整合了五個部會誰主責 現在到底哪一個部會會主責社安網的部分是由衛福部來主責這沒錯那我跟委員報告但是現在問題就是說剛剛我們過去的一個部分傳統的典型的主要是 我再重複一次貧窮 家暴 兒虐 身心障礙藥酒飲 以及精神疾病但是現在目前我們陳副委員剛剛所說我們現在面對的可能是一個新興的"},{"start":8998.943,"end":9002.307,"text":"高風險個案的整合機制是衛福部來主責是嗎沒有人可以回答我們現在就是到底整個行政院各部會誰來主責呢我們現在目前就是我們現在目前有一個我們的從2018年開始嘛有一個整個社安網的"},{"start":9020.27,"end":9040.46,"text":"那我們會用一個一組折多協力的一個方式對一組折那誰是一組折那我們現在目前要看那個整個不同的一個他的一個事件發生以後看是誰不是不是我們現在目前當然就是說有一些criteria我們要看那個整個主要問題看他在哪邊那我們就會有一個整個這個水平的一個整個協調機制"},{"start":9042.119,"end":9064.527,"text":"好那最後我佔用一點時間最後一題我想我們針對被害人的資源是不是可以一路走到終點做得到嗎包含被害人的保護他的法律輔助心理支持等等是不是能夠一路陪伴到審查終結進行包含整個的過程的關懷"},{"start":9065.627,"end":9082.162,"text":"這個部分我們政府有沒有人可以針對這些受害人我們現在目前就是有那個整個法務部那邊有一個那範保的一個機制有嗎OK我們大家一起努力好謝謝 感謝委員謝謝謝謝徐欣英委員的詢問接下來我們請牛許廷委員"},{"start":9099.522,"end":9102.028,"text":"謝主席 交通部有請有請交通部次長"},{"start":9110.898,"end":9127.714,"text":"市長 午安這個大家都很擔心因為今天稍早又收到了相關的訊息說什麼北捷又有炸彈等等這部分有掌握嗎 都有掌握好 借這個事情其實從不同的面向討論一下這個其實也是一個"},{"start":9129.375,"end":9157.392,"text":"倒不純然是因為這一件事情這個也是大家一直都有在討論的一件事情也就是說我們的台北車站當然山鐵共購也是全台灣最大的一個交通節點那麼動線其實是非常非常複雜那我們其實都很清楚就是說遇到這樣子隨機攻擊或者是甚至未來有可能很危險等等恐怖攻擊的一個情況如果能夠有效的來做緊急應變大概兩件事情一個叫做快速而精準的通報第二個叫做流暢"},{"start":9158.453,"end":9164.321,"text":"的疏散我想這是很重要的那當然通報的部分當然是景深系統來負責但疏散的動線我想說我們應該也花一點點時間來討論一下部長這個"},{"start":9168.971,"end":9195.879,"text":"台北車站跟迷宮一樣這件事情即便在這之前也有很多人有相關的抱怨也好或者是疑慮也好 擔憂也好這裡面部分不管是跟台鐵公司也好或者是跟台北市政府也好有沒有做過一些考慮過思考也就是說我們怎麼樣讓這個動線可以更清楚讓大家在裡面不要迷路然後以提升相關應變的一些效能OK 我想跟委員報告剛確實剛講因為這裡面就是有交通運輸幾乎所有的轉乘都在這裡"},{"start":9197.439,"end":9224.575,"text":"捷運好幾個線都在 紅線 藍線 地下街確實它真的是 還有桃姐確實它真的是變得非常非常的複雜那後面有一些一直增加進來的我想這部分我們會請台鐵公司再跟相關單位再來檢視一下這些的動線有沒有可以讓它更明顯或是更單純化我想這是我們後面我再請台鐵公司來進行優化"},{"start":9225.326,"end":9247.882,"text":"這個既然大家 因為今天很多部會都一起來報告啦我希望這個交通部也不要置身事外這部分有沒有一些比較明確的時間表還有你們現在規劃的一些方向我們現在大概明年明年我想就針對台北站的部分我們先來做一些 看怎麼樣來做一些指標系統的一個改善這個"},{"start":9250.174,"end":9273.148,"text":"像類似這樣子的一個方式這個當然是純粹從交通的角度比如說台鐵往哪裡走然後用設塊的方式設帶的方式來做引導這其實就一種方式或者是說現在台北車站就我的了解一樓大概都有所謂的會面點但那會面點大概其他地方就不是那麼的密集可能地下街樓層各個地方可能沒有那是不是也可以做比照來做一下設計"},{"start":9274.108,"end":9289.396,"text":"那我覺得我今天把這個照片弄出來這是純交通的動線但未來也許因應各式各樣的狀況災害也好 攻擊事件也好疏散的動線其實我覺得也可以比照這樣的方式來做處理我想這個我了解這應該是在板橋站的部分"},{"start":9290.296,"end":9318.071,"text":"那剛剛講有相關單位包括高鐵這些我想我還是因為主要當然主體我這邊會請那個台鐵公司來進行這樣的一個優化那剛剛台鐵公司他是總經理是有跟我講他現在大概會準備找我是不是請他來可以啊 可以啊 請他說明一下都好委員好 有關於台北站的指標我們現在目前已經有委託台灣設計研究院把我們的所有的指標做一系列的綠定"},{"start":9318.931,"end":9342.958,"text":"那明年就會提出我們的指標設計研究院把它做得很漂亮本席百分之百贊成但關鍵是功能性嘛這個還是功能性還是要你們專業的人來做引導我們剛開始在做設計的時候都有邀請相關單位來從功能性的角度切入那明年我們會針對台北站還有板橋站我們把指標系統做一個整體的優化疏散動線還有更多的會面點"},{"start":9343.858,"end":9366.808,"text":"你要讓這個也不只是災害的時候用嘛你多幾個會面點對於台鐵的品質來講也是個幫助啦好不好剛剛委員提到我覺得那是一個重點剛講不是只是漂漂亮亮的功能性很重要所以未來在做的時候我們會找相關單位剛講了幾個營運單位我想都會來一把本席的一些建議拿進去明年嘛好不好相關資料要讓大家了解共同精進相關的措施好 交通部請回 警政署長有請請署長"},{"start":9372.732,"end":9376.577,"text":"委員長組長辛苦這個現在我們釐清這個犯案人的動機了沒"},{"start":9378.143,"end":9403.128,"text":"目前還在持續因為他人已經死了嘛所以在從各種跡象各種的查扣的這個證物以及相關的人員現在多面向要全面深入的去做了解我想要以後要更精準希望給我們一點時間這當然要給你們一點時間因為案發之後有很多不管是特殊的學者也好網路的意見啊或者是特定的媒體"},{"start":9404.028,"end":9406.772,"text":"都在大做一些有的沒的消息比如說這個兇手是陸配之子啦這個可能是內部滲透啦這個可能是第五縱隊啊這些詞都出來了那請問警方在第一時間你要核實這樣的消息嗎"},{"start":9417.628,"end":9442.034,"text":"我們沒有 這個案件是一個重大案件所以我們這個相關的一個調查都是會在第一時間跟國人來做一個公布時間暫停一下那個現場來跟各位報告一下那個現場還在打訊很希望各位在討論的時候聲音能夠降低好謝謝主席時間可以繼續這個"},{"start":9444.608,"end":9457.911,"text":"我的意思是說你剛都講你要很清楚做完整的調查之後才做一次的公佈嘛對不對那中間出現很多這樣的雜訊跟干擾的時候警政署有沒有第一時間出來嚴正博士啊會 一定會第一時間會來做一個澄清比如講像類似我們從案件開始"},{"start":9464.693,"end":9488.129,"text":"我們發布多次的記者會或者是新聞稿都隨時會發就是讓國人了解這個罪行因為這是國人非常關注的一個重大社會事件對 重大社會事件這些相關的謠言也好 奇怪的消息對於穩定社會治安 協助辦案或者是平復社會的焦慮情緒是有幫助的嗎是有幫助曾經是有幫助曾經是有幫助 那尤其就是"},{"start":9494.933,"end":9501.239,"text":"預測也是對這個案件是沒有幫助的預測沒有幫助 曾經才有幫助的對不對真實的曾經才是有幫助的那你署長有沒有打算追究一下一天到晚預測的這群人的社會責任就是像網路上的這一些如果有牽涉到可能恐嚇維安的這一些恐嚇維安你要嚴辦這是大家都知道的事啊因為移送地震我們要偵辦啊"},{"start":9519.614,"end":9547.907,"text":"我現在講的是這些針對這樣的事情然後意圖也許是政治操作也許是造謠也許是煽動恐慌情緒的這些人我想這些應該都是不必要的啦這些都不必要嘛這我希望警方該追究的時候也要依法來做追究因為我跟署長講一個很現實的狀況也就是我剛剛問你警政署針對這件事情的時候有沒有第一時間出來做澄清說沒有這些事情按照調查程序有對不對但是署長你覺得在新聞的露出跟大家資訊的接受上大家有接受到警政署的澄清的訊息嗎"},{"start":9548.387,"end":9558.748,"text":"那未來這個部分我們可能會再加強對媒體這樣的一個溝通跟做說明讓民眾能夠更清楚整個我們的一個正確的訊息"},{"start":9560.216,"end":9584.583,"text":"第一個你應該要加大澄清的力度讓辦案的案情的這個訊息的統一發布的主導你當然要回到警政署手上我們要尊重警察的專業也要尊重警方的辦案的節奏不要讓這些雜訊去做干擾那一個是加大相關澄清的力度第二個就是針對這些有意要造謠或者是有意要渲染的這些人你該記鐵腕手段的時候要不要記出鐵腕手段我們該依法或依法來處理"},{"start":9585.803,"end":9601.231,"text":"這個公權力要對重大私安設計負起責任尤其也要對相關的謠言我也希望可以負起責任因為這個恐怕嚴重影響公共利益不太在我認為是不太在言論自由的保障範圍之內那這每次都有心人士在這個地方"},{"start":9602.416,"end":9626.431,"text":"這捕風捉影或者是意圖影射或者是試圖做政治操作我覺得這只會讓我們的社會更加混亂讓這件事情始終沒有辦法收尾也影響大家針對案情本身不管是危安疏散我們剛討論的香木窯它造成很多很多的負面影響雖然這起事件的兇手已經死亡但造成社會治安法治的信心民眾心理的持續的破壞的這些造謠的人都還逍遙法外"},{"start":9627.452,"end":9653.068,"text":"我擔心行政權的選擇性沉默或拒絕積極作為會讓公共安全難以復原所以務必請警政署這邊第一強化警政署才是辦案的主導者相關的訊息你要強烈的而且更大的聲音來做澄清第二你當然要針對這些造謠捕風捉影什麼第五縱隊什麼陸配之子這些東西該究責你也要究責這樣才能最快讓社會穩定下來可以嗎可以我們依法處理好謝謝署長辛苦了"},{"start":9656.012,"end":9664.533,"text":"好謝謝劉徐庭委員的發言那接下來我們先來處理臨時提案那臨時提案共有兩案請宣讀"},{"start":9671.963,"end":9700.844,"text":"依據我國包養條例規定堂冒險犯難中真不拔撞獵成人者得依法包養並得入肆國民革命國民革命中獵詞或地方中獵詞是以內政部據該條例包養因救助花蓮馬太安西堰澀湖災情不幸病故之林洪森先生並入肆桃園中獵詞而12月19日晚鑑於台北車站發生重大計劃性殺人事件瑜伽廠先生捨命敵遇歹徒大幅降低可能的傷亡"},{"start":9701.444,"end":9721.622,"text":"挽救眾多民眾生命安全為瑜伽廠先生不幸因傷重不治身亡為感念瑜伽廠先生一行原提案要求內政部依相關法令包養並將瑜伽廠先生入室中列詞以致表彰其堅毅勇為的精神提案人為黃建斌等五人"},{"start":9730.069,"end":9742.095,"text":"那個修正已經卸掉修正鍋的那個待會那個修正完的時候再重新兩個案子都有修正部分現在那個"},{"start":9754.602,"end":9774.937,"text":"案由鑑於民國114年12月19日發生於台北捷運及南西商圈之重大無差別公共場域攻擊事件顯示我國現行社會治安公共運輸安全社會安全網及跨部會情報聯防機制仍存在事前預警不足及時阻斷失靈及制度分工斷裂等重大結構性問題"},{"start":9776.178,"end":9789.905,"text":"原提案請內政部衛生福利部交通部法務部及國家安全局針對本案所揭露之制度缺口於一個月內提出具體檢討與改善方案並送立法院提案人委員徐欣盈等四人"},{"start":9828.322,"end":9853.48,"text":"臨時提案的說明是因為涉及到本局其中瓜胡市我們是不是可以建立修正調整文字為暴力攻擊情報聯防機制精進方案說明如何將重大疫情情資通報警政署強化勤務部署並兼顧反依據與人民權利保障"},{"start":9859.147,"end":9867.132,"text":"有修正部分的部分有修正部分的部分有修正部分的部分"},{"start":9901.413,"end":9903.054,"text":"來那個我們先休息五分鐘先討論一下"},{"start":10345.342,"end":10366.865,"text":"那個再請他們修正上面再報告一次就不會 是不是這樣 都是這樣還是要控告我那個 國安局這個您剛剛有唸了這個那他現在把惠同那支布景再畫掉 OK 齁沒有沒有 就是那支布景再修他說畫掉了啦"},{"start":10371.38,"end":10373.706,"text":"國安警報 國安警報 國安警報"},{"start":10470.028,"end":10476.793,"text":"好那個剛經過的協商之後那個介紹我們請衛福部就修正部分來說明一下好不好衛福部"},{"start":10485.242,"end":10494.554,"text":"OK 主席以及各部會同仁衛福部我們的部分是就強化社會安全網2.0計畫於三個月內提出專案檢討報告針對非精神劣管"},{"start":10500.962,"end":10518.055,"text":"非貧困長期社會孤立之高風險族群說明現行制度之限制並研議規劃風險評估機制將高風險孤立者評估及介入方式納入服務以上 謝謝接下來還有法務部的部分是不是 法務部"},{"start":10527.936,"end":10555.161,"text":"跟主席各位報告法務部在第五的部分建議修正如下請法務部於一個月內提出專案報告說明各地檢署防範恐怖攻擊應變小組之具體作為第二行以下在未達強制就醫標準之前刪除並接並就具高度公共安全風險個案制度補強方向提出說明以上補充謝謝那接下來還有"},{"start":10557.396,"end":10561.164,"text":"還有內政部第二案修正部分也說明一下"},{"start":10567.526,"end":10593.024,"text":"報告召委臨時提案第二案的部分呢我想前面就不再贅述在倒數第二行的部分為了感念余家廠先生異形因為我在答詢的時候特別提到那個家屬的意願也是非常重要所以我們建議改成就是說為感念余家廠先生異形後面原來提案文就先不要把它改成說在尊重家屬意願下予以協助"},{"start":10593.504,"end":10597.645,"text":"依包洋條例程序由原籍地方政府提報辦理謝謝部長的說明謝謝那我們臨時提案的一二案就照修訂後修訂後通過好接下來我們繼續質詢我們請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":10628.249,"end":10654.966,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請警政署署長還有法務部法務部次長我們今天這個非常重要的議題從內政部的報告裡面特別提到這個嫌犯"},{"start":10656.57,"end":10681.945,"text":"他本來是軍人後來酒駕被剔除後來被軍人教育召集未到所以由桃園地方檢察署發布通緝整個過程今天也都說明了很多委員也都諮詢了現在怎麼樣去做防範未來的防範"},{"start":10685.968,"end":10715.03,"text":"這裡面比較沒有談到的部分比較沒有談到今天所有報告裡面沒有談到的部分就是通緝犯這個通緝犯怎麼去去防範造成這樣的一個重大的傷害當然他這個整個過程這個都有做了說明然後他整個他自己居住的"},{"start":10717.516,"end":10745.167,"text":"然後犯案的路線也不是很大的範圍而且他就住在這個區塊裡面這是我從媒體所看到的也是你們所報告出來的所以他這個因為沒有簽戶籍所以然後就是交易召集"},{"start":10745.834,"end":10753.966,"text":"沒有去然後就通緝請問一下這個我先從法務部好了法務部這個通緝犯你們怎麼通報給誰發布你們只是發布"},{"start":10761.642,"end":10787.678,"text":"還是通報給哪些根據訴訟法規定我們通緝犯我們通知通報所有轄機的全國各司法警察單位甚至移民機關都會通報另外我們也會在我們的相關的這個單一的這個通報系統窗口裡面會鑒入他是一個通緝犯的身份讓全國民眾或是相關治安機關可以協助來起步所以你們通報的就是第一個就是警察機關"},{"start":10789.961,"end":10819.052,"text":"移民署警察機關移民署還有呢就是這樣然後就是公告我們在一個系統裡面會有公告所以按照現在有可以去精進的地方嗎這個是法例明定了嗎還是說可以增加通報的單位這個通報通報是訴訟法明定的通報是司法假決訴訟法明定的"},{"start":10819.474,"end":10844.32,"text":"在法例以外可以主動增加通報的機構嗎跟委員報告我們那個通緝辦的查詢系統就是法律沒有規定我們自己在行政指導上面專家做的可以增加嗎對 那麼一些現行做法這樣已經有了好那個警政署署長所以看起來就是主要是你們嘛"},{"start":10846.614,"end":10872.094,"text":"差不多也是我們警察任務之一所以在這樣一個情形之下警察很忙真的很忙他也很難他除非說碰到這個人了之後然後他去查他是不是通緝犯基本上是這樣對不對碰到那個人"},{"start":10873.315,"end":10896.955,"text":"譬如說他違規怎麼樣然後拿了他的身份證資料然後你們警察就去查他是不是通緝犯大概基本上是這樣所以我認為要加兩個機關要協調怎麼樣去精進最起碼人都要生活嘛"},{"start":10898.286,"end":10926.581,"text":"對不對人都要生活嘛最起碼這個金流對不對他要生活他要工作他最起碼是生活生活一定要錢嘛對不對所以這樣的一個情形之下要不要通報金融機構他要提款啊對不對那個法務部次長可以增加這個嗎"},{"start":10928.038,"end":10945.397,"text":"你不能全部讓警察去跟委員報告事實上我剛跟委員報告我們現在公開的查詢系統其實任何人他是公開的系統任何人他都可以去查詢那個金融機構的人不會主動不會主動去看嘛"},{"start":10946.636,"end":10973.797,"text":"是這樣 所以這個部分是一個是要去檢討精進的是 那這部分如果要包括旅館 民宿業之類的那可能要刑訴送法要做一個特別的規範所以這個部分你們去檢討加強了好 那個次長請回座警察同仁真的非常辛苦這個內政部"},{"start":10975.779,"end":11000.213,"text":"這個署長你要去欠你要去拜託部長去拜託請部長拜託左院長這個警察人員相關的預算要編列剛才你也提到要支持預算警察的預算就是要編列 現在就沒有編了造成這個"},{"start":11002.719,"end":11030.063,"text":"事實上我談了很久了警察人員人事條例有關退休輔系放在公務人員就不對嘛所以我以前質詢前系部部長現在的考試院院長他都支持支持把退休警察人員退休輔系放在警察人員人事條例所以好不容易終於把它移到警察人員人事條例結果"},{"start":11032.961,"end":11054.16,"text":"經過復議之後 然後表決完成按照法律 憲法的規定 復議要通過行政院長應急接受該決議接受啊 接受就要執行 何況已經接受了"},{"start":11056.308,"end":11084.911,"text":"公布了總統也公布施行了接受了也附屬了連部長都附屬了上次我也質詢過所以這個部分要拜託這個部長請部長拜託卓院長趕快編列預算加油好謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢接下來我們請賴思寶委員發言"},{"start":11091.33,"end":11119.515,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請內政部的劉部長還有警政署長還有國安局的陳副局長請劉部長張署長還有陳副部長來幾位長官好這件張文的隨機殺人事件幾乎是正結十幾年前的事件的翻版那"},{"start":11121.379,"end":11148.151,"text":"這個事件請問他到底是治安還是國安要不要部長先跟我們講一下他治安還是國安還是兩個都有目前依內政部跟各地方的警政系統看起來他是一個隨機殺人是無差別那我們認為到目前為止是一個重大的暴力襲擊案件所以比較傾向是讓社會不安的一個治安問題"},{"start":11149.431,"end":11172.801,"text":"他不是國安問題我想網路上有很多謠言我也趁著委員在這邊跟大家報告一下其實他跟中配沒有關係我覺得這種網路的謠言應該適可而止跟中配沒有關係跟國安局副局長不要講一下他跟這個有教授提到什麼第五縱隊有第五縱隊嗎 請問要不要回應一下"},{"start":11179.062,"end":11192.156,"text":"本案是不是涉及第五縱隊 有沒有原則上他們還在調查目前剛剛從報紙得知部長跟署長講是沒有原則上都是來自境外的信息"},{"start":11193.587,"end":11215.292,"text":"所以很清楚的看得到嘛這是一個重大的暴力事件隨機殺人隨機殺人的意思說他要殺的對象是社會台灣社會任何人他都可以殺所以這個整個心態是這樣的一個心態那他這個來看的話請問他是不是主有沒有背後有沒有有人下指導棋的有沒有國安局掌握到裡面"},{"start":11217.638,"end":11238.739,"text":"目前個案還在偵查當中都沒有到目前為止沒有看到這個嗎沒有署長要不要解釋一下就目前有沒有看到他是個主持犯罪有人指導有人指使以目前現在偵查到目前的進入是還沒有發現到這樣的一個狀況所以對於這個因為他死了嘛所以對於他犯案的"},{"start":11239.239,"end":11257.427,"text":"有沒有逛販跟動機還在全面深深的偵查那不過我們現在初步可以看得到掌握的物證其實我們要看要看物證嘛它是一個模仿的一個行為而且是一個模仿證據對這樣的一個跡象而且它是一個類似這些的一個地點"},{"start":11258.968,"end":11278.411,"text":"是一個計劃性的行為是一個隨機但是這一點都在他的計劃的一個行為在這種情況之下這個你可以看到這個剛才又有人又有冒出來說昨天又有人講今天下午一點半要在北捷放炸彈"},{"start":11279.388,"end":11300.471,"text":"這個模仿的部分我們都第一時間會去做查處而且去做偵查而且速度會很快我也利用很多的場合像從開始的案件到目前為止我們現在有發現22件那以前有查核事情都依法來一送正辦我們一定要讓民眾的心安二指這樣的一個模仿的一個行為"},{"start":11301.092,"end":11317.191,"text":"其實在台灣我們的治安在全世界是一等於一的治安是非常好的啦所以老百姓來講習慣了你知道治安非常好所以大家也不會有那種警覺性拍到這個事情老實講一般的普遍老百姓不知道如何因應不太會"},{"start":11318.152,"end":11344.309,"text":"所以你覺得要不要或者是部長跟我們解釋一下你的消局書裡面要不要特別加強一下我們碰到這樣的事情隨機殺人老百姓怎麼做或者我們要不要演練要不要演習我們下次會把委員的意見加進去不管是我們城鎮任性演習或是精華演習就是在大量群眾的疏散撤離這一塊通常都是用桌上兵推來處理"},{"start":11345.29,"end":11372.508,"text":"那下一次我們在演習的時候會把這種無腳本式的已經是牽涉到事實的案件把它加進裡面還有小局書的部分其實我們在114年的7月我們的警政署有發布這種類似暴力啦或者是搶劫等等這些但是這是小局書認為因為機率不高沒有列進去下次我們會把它列進去裡面有些內容人家有些醫生打槍你說你們CPI不見得寫得那麼的精準不過這不是我要問的來"},{"start":11375.1,"end":11401.394,"text":"這個請教署長我們要不要把煙霧霧彈跟信號彈要不要管制這個目前的煙霧彈跟信號彈是這個煙霧彈是不是管制藥品沒有管制啊信號彈也沒有管制啊那我覺得這個要嚴厲啦其實從源頭來做一個處理嚴厲看看是不是是不是讓他實名制我覺得就最少實名制的可以嗎什麼時候可以試試"},{"start":11402.603,"end":11428.91,"text":"我們來嚴厲啦 就是委員這個我看我們是不是用一個月的時間來因為這個可能牽涉到有一些相關的可能有一些是厭惡但是要去做求救的什麼這一類的一個狀況所以還有一些可能像生存遊戲的這一些的一個相關的這個狀況我們是不是就是說像這些不能來用犯罪的一個狀況"},{"start":11429.87,"end":11441.154,"text":"那我們是不是怎麼來做一個管制至少實名制啦實名制就沒有問題啦我們這部分來嚴厲好不好最後一位 你們請回我請一下那個衛福部的次長好不好請 請 請 請 請理事長 理事長我就問你一個很簡單的問題他這個張行 張文他算不算社會的邊緣人"},{"start":11460.198,"end":11481.669,"text":"包委我們現在我們社安網的服務對象主要大概是在貧窮家暴 惡虐 要求癮 精神疾病他都不是啊 還有藥毒防疫他都不是啊包委那因為在所謂的邊緣人我想這個需要嚴格定義啦我們現在目前政府做事我們現在目前基本上還是要有一定的一個整個判斷的標準"},{"start":11482.649,"end":11505.074,"text":"那成儒剛剛跟委員也在大院裡面有報告我們社安網裡面主要是針對有家暴、兒虐、身心障礙、藥酒飲以及精神疾病加一個進來 就是說對於這樣子的一個無差別攻擊或者是在公共場合大規模的隨機殺人 要不要放進來"},{"start":11505.834,"end":11514.839,"text":"包委我們現在就是這個案例我想他凸顯了兩個問題就是說有一種游泳人他屬於所謂成人孤立另外第二個他是失聯的風險群"},{"start":11516.212,"end":11538.887,"text":"那這個我想是新興的張文都是啊你這兩個張文都是啊所以我們也我們現在目前也在會在會來我也在承諾在三個月之內我們趕快我會來針對這一類新興的就這個部分邀集專家好來做你再把他叫進來吧是是是我們來沒有這一類群的啦沒錯好好好謝謝好感謝委員謝謝好謝謝賴世寶委員的發言接下來我們請吳祁銘委員發言"},{"start":11551.124,"end":11556.657,"text":"好 主席 議會同仁請我們部長跟警政署署長請劉部長 張署長"},{"start":11561.656,"end":11590.053,"text":"委員好 部長好 署長好上個禮拜五台北車站就是北捷重大的隨機襲擊事件造成了無辜的3名的民眾不幸的傷亡我們是針對說你北捷還有過去的那個江祖翠的政捷的事件還有台中的事件那你捷運這是非常多的出入所以本市這邊"},{"start":11591.594,"end":11603.649,"text":"就是一個比較不能理解的因為這個張顯的通緝犯他從下午開始就有縱火事件還有在捷運站丟棄的煙霧彈再來"},{"start":11609.159,"end":11633.749,"text":"還有再回去租屋處還可以變裝這個持刀殺人這個事件真的是我們警察單位一定要去加強尤其我本席有一個建議我們事情發生了我們後面要怎麼來防治後面不要再有這種悲劇在重演因為你說每個車站你治安一定要列入重重自重再來"},{"start":11634.649,"end":11660.5,"text":"你整個監視系統我們的監控中心一定要監控中心第一時間發現到有任何異狀你監控中心那一邊就要立即要求多久的時間要到達現場這樣才不會造成民族恐慌再來一點就是平常我們地震都會手機都會顯示出來"},{"start":11662.405,"end":11675.969,"text":"地震但是你說 進車站我們不造成恐慌 你進車站 歡迎到了某某車站然後你再有緊急事況的我們可以發布喔手機來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":11682.833,"end":11700.539,"text":"要怎樣來做警戒 怎樣來做逃生這是我們未來要去做的我認為這樣 不然你做捷運 大家都在看手機啊所以不曉得發生什麼事啊但是你如果透過這個系統我認為這可以去耗資 減少未來這個產績是不是署長 請你回答"},{"start":11705.12,"end":11733.86,"text":"好 謝謝委員的這個建議我想就是任何事件的一個發生還是要達到民眾的報案要快我們到場要快 處置要快至於這個各相關單位的一個相關的建制比如講像北哲的監控中心的指揮體系包括警報廣播或者是我們警察遇到這些遇到歹徒逃逸的一個相關單位橫向的攔截圍捕"},{"start":11734.7,"end":11759.369,"text":"這個部分我們未來都會再去做精進我們是針對車站因為車站出入人口太多尤其都是一些年輕的上班族的還有一些學生但是你要怎麼讓他們不要再看了手機但是大家都在網路看手機你根本沒有去注意周邊發生什麼事是不是透過這個系統來告知"},{"start":11763.25,"end":11784.014,"text":"這樣可以減輕另外一方面的消耗大眾的系統比如像北捷那個廣播系統是可以全面都可以聽得到的廣播啦 第一時間最快你如果用什麼簡訊它搞不好也不至於聽就第一時間的廣播警報的系統那這個當然是在這個目的世衛主宰機關的部分這個未來對這個"},{"start":11787.096,"end":11791.281,"text":"這個公衛署的這個系統未來我們可能會加強聯繫這方面的一個演練"},{"start":11793.021,"end":11817.726,"text":"對 現在我跟你們說 我們的警察都是非常辛苦甚至編制上 在車站的編制是我們捷運的我們警察隊的編制 是不是不過在這個部分 我希望本市要提出檢討總是事情發生 總是要解決事情要看一套檢討的辦法如果人員不足 我們都"},{"start":11818.586,"end":11836.995,"text":"在增加人員 我相信在立法院所有的董事長都前期是警察所以警察也最辛苦的所以在這個部分 我也拜託署長跟部長在這個部分 不管是經費還是人力的部分我們一定要去加強 將未來發生的議法可以去檢慶"},{"start":11841.746,"end":11855.026,"text":"但是我現在又看到網路上 還有人在做模仿未來不再一直延續下去 我們要怎樣去好處 怎樣去斷尾不要再發生這種悲劇了"},{"start":11857.655,"end":11879.04,"text":"這個案件發生之後我們就是有發現到這一些模仿的狀況所以到目前為止我們有發現22件已經查獲事件一受偵辦那我們也第一時間會把這一些的這個網路的模仿狀況等於下架然後再做追查我們也呼籲國人就是不要這個以深思法或者是用嬉戲的態度去看待這件事情"},{"start":11879.54,"end":11892.236,"text":"那我們一定會在這個第一時間會嚴正的去做一個執法讓像國人做手錨不要去觸犯這個模仿的這個狀況好 謝謝但是我也請保重來 請部長"},{"start":11895.097,"end":11920.717,"text":"部長 未來我們一間仙島片是不是跟民眾怎麼來自救怎麼來防範民眾因為很多不知道要怎麼保護自己是不是在這個部分可以做個宣傳我們可能要全民來加強宣傳這個危機意識讓他知道說在我們的日常生活當中無論怎麼樣都是會碰到這個情形所以我們會來加強"},{"start":11923.724,"end":11948.001,"text":"因為我們台灣的治安是世界大家都是非常謙敬不要說因為一個事件造成我們台灣在國際的影響我們國人本身也是一定要說保護心保護改機所以說我們要怎麼來做選擇這是未來我們要去推動要去做我們是說從未來的發生可以不要再去看到這是我們大家共同的願望感謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":11956.928,"end":11980.293,"text":"謝謝吳啓明委員發言 接下來請謝榮介委員發言主席我請署長有請張署長委員好"},{"start":11985.697,"end":11988.158,"text":"補充 你們聽一下 這是你的藥物蘇丁 我前幾天在台南辦活動 聖誕節的活動我看到很多東林藥 東青 戒備就是為了這個事件是你有通靈鑽國 國管制還是台南"},{"start":12011.055,"end":12024.461,"text":"我統領全國 全國嘛 全國 不是說今天一個台北市而已全國 你是我統領的這就是一個米霧中苗啦 是好聽的一些福來牛當然也會造成全台灣 大家都很緊張嘛我們的提案過去 合成在世界裡面算提案很好的 我們的國家"},{"start":12041.327,"end":12049.171,"text":"我看你今天報告跟說明不斷提起這是模仿的作案模仿的作案大概就是模仿政界你判斷他最後跳樓是要得罪是要主宰"},{"start":12070.368,"end":12088.796,"text":"這個部門應該還要調查啦 因為他當年辦案的經驗我看他如果要去定樓 要去定樓的狀況 他就是條例就是要可能就是要結束他的生命我看應該的條例其實比較大"},{"start":12095.621,"end":12105.747,"text":"如果這樣過去說這個地方掉下來這個地方都是災害在那裡是不是有屬性 你說的它有價位 還有有沒有 又怕沒方那麼如果是 那間公司說的那個地方都是災害災害這就是一個翻窗喔"},{"start":12120.578,"end":12140.506,"text":"你不可以白讀喔委員這我都會去做調查啦就是說有一些都是都是這一套我覺得很多東西就是要靠前期啦所以這我都會去做了解因為我們今天要了解這個人去的竅期啊我們就要要了解他是什麼童期啦因為他所謂模仿都是模仿這個政界政界是破死刑啊那既然破死刑他何必跳牢呢"},{"start":12150.839,"end":12176.889,"text":"所以你說他跳牢就是準備要主宰有比較矛盾我個人的感覺就是說因為我們現在大法官釋憲之後就已經是實質的匯讀施行台灣做生意實質的匯讀施行讓這個台獨呢他在作案的時候他感覺說他現在不會判施行所以我用了政節作案的方法"},{"start":12178.266,"end":12186.851,"text":"甚至殺傷幾個人 造成幾個人失望 永遠不會發生事情是不是因為這樣 這地方你有考慮了嗎委員 我們各種可能性我都會納入來做偵查的方向這樣在這個社會 你覺得說修分的言論 不斷藉著修分跟對立"},{"start":12208.991,"end":12212.732,"text":"累輸的案件我個人感覺會越來越多非常不同的尤其台北省的政體領域有的比較不積極的 少數部分不小的政體領域還在挑法什麼北部是什麼人 可能是怎麼做這種事情我們沒有辦法做不及承諾"},{"start":12238.174,"end":12239.355,"text":"要輪椅的伯母 像她在說的腰底清醒 曲身不小之離 高射水彎 歡聲待好之助不用這樣在製造社會生活那麼對著這件案件 本縣領委說"},{"start":12262.151,"end":12282.503,"text":"在全國 你也要通靈說 全國 當地 留下的所在 集會 認定這個所在 要來加強改變請委員 我們第三次經歷不足 你知道嗎對 好 來在不足的情形下 譬如說 國管局有經歷不足的情形下那這樣在國管局的 譬如說 國體站 會議站 專運站"},{"start":12290.328,"end":12297.432,"text":"這裡是臨調很多觀光站的那個所在區的分局可以針對這裡列區的分局列點到列區的分局的經歷 尊重和充足變好教育"},{"start":12309.089,"end":12314.933,"text":"這我會來做檢討 所以我們這兩天 拜六禮拜有幾乎十六個 二十二個 官司局長就在研討說這方面的處理 也來議論議題啦"},{"start":12324.79,"end":12332.096,"text":"保證在經歷不足的基層狀況下因為要叫你一時補足也不可能嘛 如果這樣在調配在國管制裡面的國分局的經歷調配是不是可以優先給這些裂口裂店"},{"start":12344.625,"end":12368.917,"text":"會分局 跨界不要嚇人家啦 變成跨界的中間他如果欠10% 他這邊可以欠5%這樣呢 伊比不惜其輸啦 你認為如何這委員會的這個說法我支持 就是第一層直接要去處理這個緊急事件民眾的報案這第一層的經歷要有做啦 我同意啦"},{"start":12372.079,"end":12385.93,"text":"京豐很辛苦啦 但是這個辦案的過程也不會對你得受苛責啦 不管在事件發生之後 所有的課室列為會處的檢討啦那麼隨時有可能會總統這種的發生 希望不要有一次啦那是有的有的 我相信在一般的事件 應該你們可以得到很多的受苦跟經驗"},{"start":12401.448,"end":12406.012,"text":"一比一來 做衝判的檢討這樣好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝謝龍介委員的質詢現在我們請聽學中委員發言謝謝召委我請劉副長跟張署長我請劉副長跟張署長"},{"start":12429.383,"end":12435.126,"text":"發生這個遺憾的這個嚴重的事件在這裡要簽署我們保證我們將對國內放棄這種類似恐攻的反應機制我們將有這種回饋"},{"start":12448.814,"end":12450.255,"text":"我們是有這個機制在做編組"},{"start":12467.148,"end":12471.691,"text":"專備訓練我們有這個技術在做尤其是在我們的維安特勤隊對於恐攻的這個狀況是有做這樣的編組跟訓練而且目前都正在實施在做訓練當中我們看到這個感覺起來是一定是有一個結尾聲"},{"start":12489.121,"end":12501.489,"text":"這個人看起來是戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的這個人是戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有"},{"start":12517.219,"end":12525.343,"text":"這個案件 當我們未來 未來我們這個演習我們競爭單位演習當中 未來想要配合到我們這個車場捷運跟這個人口密集度的這些範圍內來進行這個演習我們醫療會來做這方面的這個演練叫那個訓練這是一個重大仁安的事件"},{"start":12545.533,"end":12567.188,"text":"這樣的話 我們是要替我們警察銀行來講話我們才看到我們的署長逃過很多次來跟他們指責指責說他們執勤到位 逮捕嫌犯的速度最慢其實我們都會了解 我們警察受到通告"},{"start":12568.149,"end":12576.552,"text":"他們有時在外面睡覺過他們在外面要睡覺快點去捏鬆筋捏鬆筋捏會過這有可能在這時候時間延誤到會去傷到很多人我們警察要明心切第一時間趕快去現場"},{"start":12586.435,"end":12607.451,"text":"已經把刑犯被迫到一個陰暗處我們叫警察說從這個陰暗處去逮捕那個刑犯我們跟郭靖這個警察比例有辦法安全出來當然是要等 要等到說我們的支援部隊夠我們才可以去逮捕嘛 像這樣所以說"},{"start":12611.054,"end":12619.82,"text":"我們有時候發生社會事件不是我們要的發生社會事件也不可以將所有這個體涉給我們的警察的動力我們貴姓 大家因應措施這個國分可能要請我們補充我們要來研議研議一套"},{"start":12634.471,"end":12643.634,"text":"研議一套的未來將對這個隨機殺人的這個應應百姓的應應措施如何釋放剛才我們就覺得比較可笑的一個一個勇敢的個性去做事結果也是第一個去向這個平凡態勢的這個我們覺得比較安心他們如果說再讓自己"},{"start":12661.923,"end":12672.61,"text":"因為比較好的狀況 還讓自己先離開離開現場 換有人受傷但這塊陰魂來 來抵抗這個症狀現場沒有人去受傷所以我們如果有跟他說你今天你有去練清涼你有練優德 你有練抵抗你有一身的智慧的能力也不一定有辦法去抓受害傷者的症狀的那個靈力"},{"start":12690.743,"end":12707.086,"text":"因為他走到城市那是健身狂狂四圍亂砍我們練習我們師弟母知道你看我演過舞蹈你看我看過大軍我們就是都有正式的一套練習的方式在訓練無情的訓先放這樣走到台灣走到歐國來歐國台所以我要建議一項我們現在全國的經歷想要都謙虛"},{"start":12719.728,"end":12728.498,"text":"警力是有欠缺警力是目前有些是欠缺的欠缺我們都已經知道了但是警力警察還是要休息我們如果有一千個警察有可能當這個時間是更多的休息我們警力欠缺的情況下我們還有一個第二組織"},{"start":12740.652,"end":12750.052,"text":"第二組織的會鄉民 我們衛生公司譬如我們捷運站 我們國體公司我們鐵路公司 他們都有請一個給我們保護住的"},{"start":12752.481,"end":12770.268,"text":"保全,我們要看如何把這個高傳的零元,跟訓練,跟他們訓練,可以做專業的防範犯罪,或是核實犯罪的零元,定義做我們警察的地理固定。"},{"start":12770.968,"end":12774.931,"text":"我們可以讓他們開機 他們現在開機是什麼?一支警棍 應該是一支警棍而已 他們的護船我們可以感恩他們 因為我們使用電磁槍 使用電磁棍用這個比較加強性的防護製的武器來讓他們隨身攜帶他們可以來代替警察來做第一層的風敵的這個工作 這個過分性"},{"start":12800.689,"end":12815.224,"text":"把我們輸掉跟補掉 給你們分用一下 給你們建議一下這個國運 您想可以考慮一下 委員你這個建議很好 我前跟前天我跟補掉就是給"},{"start":12817.006,"end":12820.189,"text":"22縣市的警察局長對警力有一些部署都是要用民力來一起參與所以這次未來就是這些營業事業機關對於這個保全的這一些的人力的增加跟裝備的這個充實"},{"start":12834.065,"end":12859.341,"text":"我覺得這是一個很好的方式因為每年的訓練可能更加退休可能有一些不足能夠協計能夠加入這些的民力進來對未來的社會的安全的保障是更加一層的保護可能要麻煩我們輸掉我們補掉我請你先休息一下我請我們的衛福部次長衛福部次長"},{"start":12866.947,"end":12893.205,"text":"市長 我們這次的隨機殺人事件顯示醫院已經有實驗失人行為偏差的徵兆當這次的事件對著今晚的社政跟心理衛生的體系建立高風險個案的機制有什麼可以改善的方法"},{"start":12895.266,"end":12900.028,"text":"非常感謝委員對我們這個問題的關心就像剛才委員所說的我簡單來講我們過去的社會安全網最主要所針對的風險我叫做救風險這個救風險最主要的就是 委員你剛才所說的可能有接觸的"},{"start":12914.415,"end":12923.039,"text":"吃藥 精神疾病 兒女的身心 又吃飽等等但是這 我老實說 這有一點比較屬於我們傳統其實我們這裡 其實我們要來綁這個 也已經很努力但是現在這次所表現的就是說 有一種新興的風險我們分析起來有兩個重點 第一就是說"},{"start":12937.907,"end":12952.34,"text":"他就是我們說叫成人孤立他已經大人大賤但是問題是他內心他可能受到外面的一些挫折自己也不怎麼說 我如果委員報告其實我們在調查的時候過去兩年他完全沒領好這個就醫的紀錄也沒有來做這個精神疾病所以像這種他就是說第二的要件就是說"},{"start":12962.87,"end":12982.25,"text":"他失禮嘛 跟社會完全都隔離但是他常常可能會做一些少年害理的事情所以我們現在就是說 我剛才也有跟委員報告說我們三國外以來我們就是跟我們一些 請教一些專家尤其我們警察大學 我有很多公共安全的部份有很多專家 我們要請教"},{"start":12984.853,"end":12990.66,"text":"這個新興的風險 我想必須我們來面對我們這次 我也有在委員報告 我們是很危險但是我們一家政府就是有義務我們有責任 要來處理這個問題三個月以來 我來提出這個報告來用委員報告感謝市長"},{"start":13004.015,"end":13019.002,"text":"當我們分明後衛黨電視上就有發生一個例子就是暗示軍心 他的心理狀況有問題但是這個這段時間可能有用言語去恐嚇就出名介表但是"},{"start":13020.243,"end":13034.638,"text":"因為警察來 他是一個有心理的疾病的一個人警察人如果讓他居留還是怎樣結果他回來之後發生了遺憾的事情就是怎樣就是他要趕時間 趕到鹿洋莊沙山走到處理台人"},{"start":13041.986,"end":13049.712,"text":"所以來針對心理輔導的高風險群組的輔導機制希望政府要再強化一下我簡單說一下我們現在也已經社會安全網裡面有一個我們現在第二期要來升職社區的心理衛生中心目前為止我們是幾位要轉國一百控一處跟每年我們議制"},{"start":13067.745,"end":13069.227,"text":"謝謝丁薛忠委員的發言接下來我們請王鴻薇委員發言"},{"start":13093.769,"end":13099.794,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請內政部部長以及警政署署長請劉部長 張署長委員好好 部長和署長我首先要感謝我們今天的司法法制委員會我們做成的提案就是對於這個余家廠先生他在第一時間他可以說捨命抵禦歹徒那怎麼樣"},{"start":13122.119,"end":13126.264,"text":"內政委員會 對不起對 內政委員 我講錯了是不是不好意思 趕快更正對 內政委員會做成提案讓這個瑜伽廠先生可以入寺終列祠我覺得這是今天我們非常好的一個提案"},{"start":13138.539,"end":13161.349,"text":"那我有注意到部長在面對媒體的時候也有肯定那所以非常感謝這個內政部那我想今天我們內政委員會變更議程針對這個社會重大事件一起國內外的矚目的事件做這個專題報告大家可以看到就是我們各位委員其實關心的層面非常非常廣"},{"start":13162.129,"end":13173.984,"text":"包含剛才的地學中委員也關心到我們社會層面的心理還有社區的關懷所以它絕對不是一個今天是為了政治性或者是為了護航蔣萬安市長而辦的專題報告我想這個是非常非常清楚的"},{"start":13179.17,"end":13194.197,"text":"那我也希望在這個社會承受一個這麼重大的創傷之後尤其政治人物真的應該要有所節制真的應該要有所節制不要動不動就用政治去解讀好我們先看放一張影片"},{"start":13210.592,"end":13213.013,"text":"也有時間的關係我們就看圖片我想這個事件發生之後昨天我們也看到我們中山分局的所長耿業的就是在講到其實我們的員警已經盡力也看到我們很多我們在轄區內的員警其實他們是在休假當中"},{"start":13235.662,"end":13254.555,"text":"那麼他接到這個通知之後立刻就機車就停下來就立刻去執勤那當然大家看到這個攻堅的畫面也就是當張文提逃到頂樓之後那麼我們七個警察衝到第一線的時候那很多人就看到說"},{"start":13255.996,"end":13260.18,"text":"面對這樣的一個凶殘而且有這種致命性的這個他的凶器的這個凶嫌在逮捕的時候沒有配槍沒有配槍那如果你相對最近不是也發生在AIT有一個可疑的題材那個是防暴小組出動可以看到這樣的裝備他是一個防暴小組的出動"},{"start":13281.737,"end":13298.07,"text":"所以我想請問一下署長因為你們把這整個時間序也把它交代得非常清楚我看那報告那麼警政署是什麼時候知道在捷運站裡面有這個重大的攻擊事件請問一下署長警政署什麼時候知道的"},{"start":13300.111,"end":13307.016,"text":"我們案件發生之後就馬上就知道了大概什麼時間大概就是大概6點鐘左右就知道6點鐘左右所以我要請教的是因為當天現場我想包含這個轄區內的警"},{"start":13315.902,"end":13321.225,"text":"就是派出所一定在調配他的人力所以剛才發生就是員警在休假中趕快接到通知立刻他連去領配備都來不及所以這個會出現說沒有配槍然後好像裝備都不足只是拿了警棍而已"},{"start":13336.033,"end":13341.857,"text":"我想請問一下如果警政署得到這個訊息因為當天他是有丟煙幕彈而且在台北火車站的時候已經有攻擊事件那個瑜伽場就已經攻擊他他最後是死亡嗎"},{"start":13354.187,"end":13381.521,"text":"所以當天現場有沒有派防暴小組出動這個部分不是屬於類似這一種爆裂物它是煙霧所以跟這個AIT的狀況是不同的所以這個是消防的給我們的訊息所以這個兩件事應該不同的類型也就是資訊要正確今天如果是一個爆裂物我們當然會出動這個防暴小組來處理"},{"start":13383.892,"end":13390.593,"text":"這個AIT處理用防暴小組來處理因為當時沒有人認領的一個是一個提袋裡面是眼鏡但是當時擔心它是爆裂物可是當天現場其實已經有煙霧彈但是後來事實上它還有汽油彈它只是當天沒有拿住汽油彈所以我在這邊特別要講的就是說"},{"start":13408.797,"end":13424.146,"text":"像這個攻擊事件他從下午開始縱火一直到大概在下午在5點多鐘的時候已經在台北車站已經出現丟煙霧彈而且有攻擊他那個已經有人受傷死亡"},{"start":13425.026,"end":13427.769,"text":"我認為對我們警察的時候警察他的配備還有你們的所有的通報調度我還是會認為讓警察會暴露在第一線如果當時他是跳樓他跳樓當時凶嫌跳樓死亡"},{"start":13441.804,"end":13461.765,"text":"如果因為當天天色已晚那這幾位警察他沒有 他也沒有配槍然後你知道其中有一個死亡的就是他這一個就是他這個道移動下去就立刻封喉欸就是死亡者有個立刻封喉的真的是非常非常倒霉真的是悲劇所以我的意思"},{"start":13462.526,"end":13469.01,"text":"警察在第一線我們幸好這一次在警察沒有發生憾事可是如果我們看到這個第一線的畫面我會為警察捏一把冷汗所以就是說當時我們接獲通報然後他們接獲這個指示但是他們事實上當時身上的配備是不足的所以我必須講其實很多事情不管中央也好地方也好"},{"start":13490.123,"end":13494.027,"text":"我們應該感謝的我們感謝我們應該包養的要包養但是該檢討的也要檢討我更認為是說真的我們要防止下一個悲劇給我一點點時間因為我們今年全國有44場的跨年活動你們有算包含廟會包含很多的這個耶誕活動"},{"start":13514.215,"end":13528.84,"text":"今年有137場以台北市 昨天的台北馬它的出動的遠景超過原來部署的一倍對 就是原來的兩倍增加一倍之多"},{"start":13529.88,"end":13540.085,"text":"所以我想請問一下台北市宣布說在跨年活動時候要有保安警力要派駐霹靂小組要有防暴車要有偵報犬要設置車主而且這次要有細胞簡訊這個是在台北市礦打派議員他們的建議之下蔣文安市長他同意未來要發細胞簡訊同樣的事件"},{"start":13558.317,"end":13577.689,"text":"發生在北車也有可能發生在桃園也可能發生在新北也可能發生在高雄所以我想請問署長或者部長可以回答像這些在馬上面臨的全國這麼多的跨年活動或者耶誕活動都是人潮聚集"},{"start":13578.59,"end":13582.533,"text":"那這幾個我剛才講的台北市說他們要做那請問一下全國是不是也會同樣的規格我們從禮拜六禮拜天就集合22個縣市的局長由部長跟我對於未來到不管是到跨年或是耶誕或是過年盤點總共137場的重大活動那我們都會依照活動的這個性質做最高規格的維安的部署"},{"start":13608.633,"end":13628.043,"text":"包括裡面不管是怎樣的一個措施我們都會做這樣的一個這些措施都會 都會做吧都會把它納入這樣的考慮就是除了這個警力之外我們還有加入這些民力因為有些警力是不足的我知道 這些民力包括一警力加民防或者是保全或者是地方不足的中央"},{"start":13628.743,"end":13652.682,"text":"也會去做支援我看到你們報告你們是準備動用一萬七千多人嘛包含名利啦所以其實原警會非常辛苦尤其在這個整個的未來跨年活動甚至一直要延長到春節那另外我請教一下或者部長來回答我一下就這一次呢其實非常確定的是台北市未來要用細胞簡訊"},{"start":13653.763,"end":13682.2,"text":"也就是比如說你在北車其實我們有去旅遊韓國旅遊也是一樣他們連哪個地方發生通緝犯連那個旅客都會收到都會收到簡訊旅客也會收到簡訊所以他們這次台北市會採取跨黨辦議員的建議就是這次比如北車他發生了這樣的一個攻擊事件那立刻在他附近的不管是商圈也好"},{"start":13682.88,"end":13687.562,"text":"就是附近的居民都會接到細胞簡訊讓他們知道這附近就是發生這樣的一個暴力事件或攻擊事件讓大家提高警覺否則的話那個兇嫌他在馬路上在那邊丟汽油彈還有人以為是在拍電影"},{"start":13703.59,"end":13715.103,"text":"所以那個部長是不是能把這裡面這幾個最後把它規格化也就是說除了台北市之外其他的縣市有這樣大型跨年活動也會有這樣的一個規格來做防範報告委員"},{"start":13718.767,"end":13745.291,"text":"如果地方政府依照現在行政院災防辦他們只做疏散撤離那可以跟行政院的災防辦來申請但是申請的時候有一些要件譬如說這些群眾有沒有被教育到否則你發了一個疏散撤離沒有把明確的文字寫清楚的話疏散到東南西北邊或者疏散到上峰處或下峰處反而會造成恐慌"},{"start":13745.851,"end":13760.907,"text":"所以呢台北市政府要申請這樣的程序我們並不反對但是我希望可以跟行政院的災防辦能夠說清楚把這個訊息非常明確的規範出來那同時參與的因為這些大型活動都是不確定的人潮"},{"start":13761.928,"end":13785.441,"text":"所以他必須要能夠接受到這個相關的訊息的時候那他知道他自己怎麼做否則會引起恐慌其實我們都知道包括大型的賽事世界上其他大型的賽事活動甚至大型的演藝活動如果你沒有做好這方面的資訊上的告知的話引起不必要的恐慌甚至會產生其他第二次的災害反而會造成大家的困擾"},{"start":13786.121,"end":13799.991,"text":"所以我建議說這是一個很好的方向但是要界定清楚譬如說我們哪個地方發生地震四級的時候至少國客會告訴我們地震的震災的中央要往外擴幾公里那我們就發細胞簡訊"},{"start":13801.292,"end":13828.466,"text":"我想每個人在過去的訊息期間都有收到包括颱風啊警報等等這些但是這次是因為有這個維安的訊息那維安的訊息是要快那既然要快的話到底在哪裡那這一次的這個嫌犯呢他從這個林森北路的縱火的地方到北車再到中山站再到南溪這麼長一串下來這個時間點如果你發送不對的話反而會造成權限可能是上好幾十萬人會覺得"},{"start":13830.087,"end":13852.761,"text":"不曉得要做什麼事這一點可能我還是要一再提醒我們不反對但是還是要能夠做精確的預估其實部長這樣講我是能同意所以是不是未來因為比如說我們這個地震的這個細胞檢訊大家都也很熟悉了可是有這樣的暴力攻擊或甚至未來真的也不排除有恐攻的狀況的時候那這個細胞檢訊該怎麼發"},{"start":13856.623,"end":13873.271,"text":"那或許是各縣市要跟災防辦要做一個甚至要做一個演練但是我真的覺得這個事件我們付出相當的代價但是我們要用這個事件裡面從好幾個面向其實該去補強的就去補強該去檢討的就去檢討不要迴避好不好好謝謝謝謝王宏文委員的發言接下來我們請吳氏耀委員發言"},{"start":13892.812,"end":13895.894,"text":"謝謝主席有請署長請上署長大家辛苦了料敵從寬欲敵要從嚴今天立法院是難得的不分黨派大家一起來支持警方來強化治安一起來安定社會人心這是好事但是在這裡要呼籲不分黨派的委員趕快來審查中央政府總預算案"},{"start":13919.554,"end":13935.147,"text":"我們非常多的治安警力都需要預算案來支持而今天召委非常用心今天委員會有四個部會加上國安會國安局都列席但事實上這個案子事實上可能如果有機會"},{"start":13936.088,"end":13956.299,"text":"更應當來針對台北市警力的一些部署來進行一些檢討那我今天只能夠就我質詢警政署的部分來協力台北市警方的很多作為因為攻擊要在北投跨年砍100人就是在司堯的選區我們要超前部署 下一頁"},{"start":13957.139,"end":13972.117,"text":"那首先我要問一下很多人在質疑一個案件的偵辦需要相當的專業那蔣萬事長在第一時間案發之後受訪他就提到了這個張姓嫌疑人是畏罪墜樓疑似"},{"start":13974.059,"end":13997.448,"text":"那這樣的一個請問你們現在對於他墜樓的原因有清楚的一個還沒調調還沒定調因為我還了解他的動機還要更廣面更深入去了解他的動機是怎樣因為他人已經死了我們還要更深入去了解他的相關的基礎來做了解所以還在釐清所以說蔣市長這種未經專業的釐清偵辦就直接對外來先定調適合嗎"},{"start":14002.926,"end":14029,"text":"這個我可能沒辦法評論所以您講得非常好我們就引用這個法醫高大成的說法就以這個范賢仁他要跳樓前他似乎是都先脫掉了他的防彈背心跟裝備之類的那就他的經驗判斷恐怕是想要減輕全身的重量所以呢依這個高大成法醫的研判可能"},{"start":14030.3,"end":14057.73,"text":"這個張文試圖逃脫的可能性可能有八成畏罪自殺可能只有兩成這是相對專業者的一個研判而就如同剛剛署長所說的真正的墜樓意圖呢還是要以驗傷驗屍最後的傷勢才能夠最後的定奪所以我是也就這個機會讓您來說明對於這個死因的部分我們應當要交由專業來偵辦這才是更為妥善好 下一頁"},{"start":14058.67,"end":14066.369,"text":"那張文案的模仿效應呢北投是下一個目標嗎這一個IP查出來在境外在越南是嗎是在境外"},{"start":14068.345,"end":14091.733,"text":"那我聽了您早上的說明到目前為止類似的跟風仿效的這種恐嚇發文應當是20多件了嗎22件那已經查獲有4名了已經查獲4名了但是因為這個威脅要在北投本席的選區來恐怖犯案的因為在境外所以目前還沒有辦法查到"},{"start":14093.546,"end":14115.233,"text":"確切的對這個部分就是IP在境外需要點時間好那希望能夠快速有進一步的訊息來安定民心下頁我這裡簡單跟您報告北投另外plus天母蘭雅是五四遙服務的選區我們總共是55個里人口數北投23萬5天母蘭雅8萬2"},{"start":14116.673,"end":14144.041,"text":"那因為這一次這個北捷的事件它有我們中央的鐵路警察局因為有北車那另外就是從中山站南西站捷運沿線有台北市的捷運警察隊以及在地的分局對不對但如果在士林北投我爬梳了一下確實中央就比較少直接的警力因為這恐怕都是地方分局的部署的地點下一頁"},{"start":14145.501,"end":14166.41,"text":"就以捷運來講北投有淡北捷運站從芝山一直到關渡我也調出了他們的進站出站人次可能10排是最多最密集第二是天母的芝山站第三是北投站第四是關渡站所以說要部署的捷運站的熱點"},{"start":14167.771,"end":14194.879,"text":"我們中央無論如何要協助台北市畢竟我過去擔任議員我就多次的爭取捷運警察隊的人力是比不足還不足啊尤其呢捷運站沿線的這些就以士林對不起就以北投天母大概是13個派出所所以說第一個警力來支援就優先在這個捷運熱點這是需要的您同意嗎"},{"start":14195.732,"end":14215.178,"text":"報告委員我們第一時間中央就支援80名而且現在持續當中是第一時間就支援地方警察那未來既然有人在威嚇北投沿線的捷運站我認為我已經提點你們這些進出站的熱點人次了第二個也請中央這個恐怕是台北市政府的權責"},{"start":14216.538,"end":14233.824,"text":"這一次在捷運站裡頭似乎有一組的這個監視系統是故障的是失靈的在這裡要呼籲喔台北市務必要把既然已經有人恐嚇要在北投了北投沿線的捷運站就是這些相關的系統設施設備如果有任何的失靈故障要馬上去進行維修"},{"start":14236.485,"end":14265.865,"text":"才能夠有利於我們希望不幸不要發生但是所有的準備工作都要具足下一頁我也給您提點出來北投區的觀光景點商圈市場醫療院所大型廟宇包括北投觀光的溫泉區石牌商城晚上是黑黑狗呼聲老爹還有天母商圈好幾個百貨高島屋等等關渡宮河岸公園參拜的人數跟踏青的人數各大市場以及榮總院區"},{"start":14267.225,"end":14284.753,"text":"我也希望你們藉由我在地的資訊請你們協助地方派出所來強化這些熱點區域的部署在下一頁還有大型活動您剛講已經盤點出大概到年前有137個好像應當沒有士林北投的大型活動"},{"start":14287.394,"end":14307.625,"text":"這個地方應該是沒有啦因為我在地我資訊最清楚但是在北投區最近打卡景點吉慶禮的聖誕像福星禮的聖誕公園都是非常多外地遊客來聚集的無論如何協助石牌派出所協助北投分局來加強這些熱點節慶活動的人力協處好嗎好最後一個"},{"start":14314.188,"end":14334.21,"text":"這就是我的建議士林北投分局跟13個派出所跟55個里的緊急治安會議我認為有需要我也希望台北市政府蔣市長會來召集第二個落實官民協防強化縱向橫向的聯繫以及加強巡邏提高見景率來安定民心最後一個公民宣導"},{"start":14335.391,"end":14357.562,"text":"這個小局書裡面的第二個chapter當危機來臨時其實就給我們非常多如何讓人民自己能夠來自助人助守望相助最好的資訊大家都應當擁有這種新時代社會公民的一個新的公民的能力好最後呢"},{"start":14358.542,"end":14371.143,"text":"很多委員都提到因為蔣萬安市長一直提到說要用細胞簡訊因為本席曾經在2021年成功爭取將火山警報因為我的選區大屯火山系"},{"start":14372.011,"end":14397.307,"text":"有這個因為大屯火山是火火山所以我開始努力去爭取細胞簡訊我才知道細胞簡訊的爭取不是一天兩天說發就發他要非常嚴謹的從中央政府的災防辦再到向NCC來申請再加上要跟電信業者所以我在2021年爭取了一年多終於讓火山警報納入細胞簡訊他有建制"},{"start":14399.969,"end":14415.765,"text":"而且除了建制之外剛剛劉部長講得非常好他還需要搭配演練我們在大屯火山的火山警報納入細胞簡訊一年多的建制之後還搭配了中華民國史上第一次的火山災變的應變演練"},{"start":14418.047,"end":14425.67,"text":"所以這非常重要不是沒有任何的演練直接單頻發細胞簡訊那會反而會造成一夕之間的恐慌啊所以說我當然認為如果要把這種無差別的攻擊事件納入未來台灣的細胞簡訊防災應變的一個系統我支持那循程序可以申請"},{"start":14439.915,"end":14444.436,"text":"但是不是只有細胞檢訊是萬靈丹有了這個是安人心嗎我反而覺得不要漏了演練撤離這些訓練還有民防的支持這才是重中之重所以在這裡也是要以我過去爭取大屯火山災防檢訊的這些經驗想要再一次分享給大家不要以為有細胞檢訊就是萬能"},{"start":14466.582,"end":14477.828,"text":"好那今天辛苦了再次拜託士林北投既然已經有人恐嚇那我們就全力的中央來支持人力物力中央跟地方一起安定台灣社會民心這樣好不好好謝謝主席"},{"start":14484.946,"end":14499.106,"text":"謝謝吳師友委員發言我們這邊宣告一下中午我們不休息繼續開會本席這邊也再重新再強調一次這一次的會議最主要是因為像這樣的類恐的攻擊"},{"start":14499.987,"end":14519.454,"text":"是有計劃性的是必須要額外的重視所以一定要統整我們相關部會的這些資訊資源情資醫療警政這些種種要統整起來因為我們避免未來發生再次這樣憾事因為人命最重要我們真希望台灣能夠一切平安那接下來我們請下一位委員是盧縣議委員發言"},{"start":14527.321,"end":14532.288,"text":"主席有請我們刑事警察局座右偉局長請處處長我們先讓署長跟部長休息"},{"start":14540.956,"end":14559.211,"text":"那我最主要是要問說到現在為止有知道犯案動機了嗎我們目前還在清查中因為大概都知道說是生存遊戲謎是嗎是 知道嗎通常我們看到國外的話大概就知道說大概是宗教的原因或者是種族的原因"},{"start":14559.931,"end":14574.016,"text":"我們目前不太知道他的原因今天有點遺漏就是說很像沒有叫他之前的單位過來也就是空軍的太前佛國兵馬志願役的空軍志願役然後他是酒駕太儲"},{"start":14575.476,"end":14593.067,"text":"所以我在想他的介入點應該是在哪裡我說他的犯罪的動機或者是說他的心理層面的因素可能這個部分是不是以後在警察大學在上課的時候是不是要多一點這方面的教育我剛看了時間點就是17點23分15點40分到18點50分一共190分鐘裡面的時序裡面第一件死亡案件是5點23分"},{"start":14604.975,"end":14629.955,"text":"然後5點41分就說已經鎖定這個個案可是他5點23分發生第一件到第二件就是大概還有一個多小時的時間大概有75分鐘的時間你們已經鎖定了可是75分鐘裡面是一個空窗期就是他第二個死亡的這個當中你們有做了哪些努力這個部分報言"},{"start":14633.17,"end":14651.024,"text":"那個縱火 縱火的是知道是縱火但是縱火不知道他會去做隨機殺人因為他不同區域在中山那縱火的狀況中山就在追就是縱火之後知道他是民而且到台灣去追好那第一個他去做北捷5點23分"},{"start":14652.785,"end":14655.045,"text":"對我要說這個時間裡面對這個時間軸裡面因為這個時間軸裡面5點23分到到這個18點11分這個有影像出來才連結到說這個是去縱火的所以這個是兩件事情所以兩件那我們當然案件的發生就是跟這個身份跟時間在做賽跑這個是一個"},{"start":14676.63,"end":14694.844,"text":"是一個通緝方他有一個可以切入的地點就是說他是2024年11月25號教育招集令沒有到然後可是隔了8個月才發通緝也就是今年的7月11號那7月11號到現在大概也有幾個月的時間我是覺得說可能在這個通緝或者是說去"},{"start":14695.504,"end":14713.38,"text":"找這個人的這個我覺得努力不夠所以我說可能你們有講一些你們的檢討報告比如說你們要從訓練 從裝備 從演習可是這個部分我覺得應該也要去把它強化是不是這個通緝的時間那麼長一段時間裡面你們沒有掌握它的行蹤"},{"start":14715.002,"end":14729.262,"text":"對剛剛我們法部也就是對於他通緝了發布的狀況那未來這個部分我們會再去做強化就是也就是他因為通緝我們當然是會去做查補那通緝的狀況就是他的居住手"},{"start":14730.423,"end":14743.13,"text":"這一定是會去做查譜不過這個人已經跟家裡這個斷了大概兩年以上的時間沒有住在他的這個資料的一個這個地方所以他是一個不定時的需要一點時間去做查譜謝謝署長那我們請衛福部次長跟羅一鈞局長還有署長"},{"start":14759.153,"end":14781.05,"text":"市長我看你們的報告就是大概都針對我們的社安網也就是說你們看我們可以預期說你們接下來要多800多億的一個所謂的一個社安的在按2.0不過這個裡面什麼脆弱家庭保護措施加害人處境沒有這個針對我們這個類似這個邊緣人的這個部分所以是不是可以掌握"},{"start":14781.63,"end":14803.868,"text":"以後這樣子的一個 比如說酒駕太促然後他是高度封閉他是不是在那個時候在酒駕太促的時候就應該介入他的輔導機制在裡面不然你完全沒有就醫記錄你是不是那個時候他空軍在離開的時候他應該就要輔導他去做心理諮商或者是說精神科的一個診治不然你就沒有辦法接觸到這個人"},{"start":14804.568,"end":14820.503,"text":"是非常感謝委員的一個槌尋我剛剛你在回答的時候也說就是說我們過去我也必須要跟委員報告全世界的社安網基本上主要真的都是在集中在有關於貧窮家暴 兒虐 身心障礙藥酒飲以及精神疾病"},{"start":14823.506,"end":14842.481,"text":"我們現在面臨一個新興的一個整個風險的形態其實主要大概這一次的個案呈現出兩個特色第一個就是說它是一個成人孤立另外第二個就是說它是一個失聯的風險群它的原因包括我們現在目前知道"},{"start":14845.503,"end":14857.732,"text":"我現在目前就是說我剛也在這一個我們回來三個月之內那個召集專家那個國內有關這方面最好的學者專家學者我們會研擬這個新的風險的那個類別我們趕快來做 好謝謝那局長羅一鈞局長那個關於這個AIDS的這個部分風險就是說這個有沒有所謂的"},{"start":14868.38,"end":14888.252,"text":"各自的一個疑慮或者是說你現在到目前為止你的預期可以掌握的可以公告就是說給大家知道說這個是安全的這個時間點你有做預估嗎就是在事件發生後72小時之內必須要完成投藥才可以把這個感染的機率降到零"},{"start":14888.752,"end":14907.14,"text":"所以就已經住院的這個個案部分我們都有個別透過公衛系統跟醫療系統去傳達跟做評估所以在醫療系統這邊已經在住院的有需要投藥的這個傷患的話已經完成投藥如果不幸有人確診那國家有沒有賠償的機制"},{"start":14909.101,"end":14930.473,"text":"應該是這樣子講就說完成投藥而且他完成投藥這位應該是說相關的這個需要投藥的都在汽車的時候是不會有感染的情形如果真的有發生感染的話因為這個艾滋的治療都是公費在提供後續有健保會支持所以我想就那個治療醫療的部分都是會由我們政府跟健保這邊來處理"},{"start":14931.494,"end":14952.205,"text":"只是說就這個責任的部分呢可能是牽涉到說砍傷之後造成後續連續感染這些的責任賠償的話那個我們會再請教相關的專家來就如果真的有發生不過要強調就是說我們認為只要完成投藥是不會有這個感染的情形發生謝謝局長那就麻煩局長再多追蹤謝謝你謝謝謝謝趙委員好 謝謝盧縣議委員發言接下來我們請洪孟凱委員發言"},{"start":14963.929,"end":14986.852,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請內政部長跟警政署長請劉部長跟張署長部長署長 大家都很關心1219的這個事件我們今天來做一個徹底的檢討跟討論最重要的就是希望是防範未來其中一個部分很多委員可能都有提到就是在於這位凶嫌他其實是通緝犯"},{"start":14987.895,"end":15013.926,"text":"那但是過去在這幾年裡面我們通氣的系統跟行政上的資源有沒有因此脫節因為在這一個事件裡面兇險它其實在台北市租屋甚至它的這個租屋的一個地點其實也就是寧博愛特區附近那以及網路使用平台還有公共場合的廠刊等等的但是居然我們都沒有辦法有這個發現"},{"start":15015.507,"end":15023.105,"text":"未來有沒有什麼可以更進一步因為本期剛剛查了一下去年的資料我們現在通緝犯的人數居然高達八萬人"},{"start":15025,"end":15048.378,"text":"是不是登記在案的 我們有八萬人通緝犯這個通緝的部分就是法務部發布通緝犯之後不管是通緝給檢證機關或移民署我們都有要求各縣市政府檢察局的去做加強這個TAP那TAP的這個第一表演者大概就是他的戶籍地或者是他的居住地址 第一時間去做了解"},{"start":15049.119,"end":15067.386,"text":"那像這個這個嫌犯他的嫌犯已經跟家裡失聯大概兩年以上了是兩年以上了本席現在講的時候我想我們今天都是就事論事就是說這個通緝犯他其實發佈通緝也已經半年之久那在這半年裡面他可以上網去購買不管是我們認為說他是相對來講比較一般人不會去購買的煙霧彈"},{"start":15073.413,"end":15088.971,"text":"這個甚至他的刀是從哪邊來的不得而知可是一個通緝犯在博愛特區附近租屋然後趴趴走然後買這些東西他有網路的足跡等等的但我們沒有任何可以更積極有效作為去掌握嗎"},{"start":15089.755,"end":15116.437,"text":"我想未來就是說對於查捕導犯在偵查的這個方向跟技巧能夠更加的精進比如講像未來就是通緝犯我們可能會對於他使用的電子的這些相關的產品再更加去深入去蒐集他真正住的這個地方不然就是就只有在我們公共的場所遇到我們的同等的臨檢入檢去查捕的遇到狀況這個機率就比較低"},{"start":15118.518,"end":15142.955,"text":"這被動這機率比較低如果主動的話剛剛委員提的也是很好未來就是他使用的這些的電子的這個產品比方他有用他的真實身份證去購買的手機啦或者是或者是他的類似上網的IG什麼各方面去積極的去做查譜這個部分未來可能我們會再做再做內部的這個精進是那是不是內政部跟法務部這邊能夠來去開會討論到怎麼樣能夠針對通緝犯的這部分"},{"start":15148.338,"end":15163.07,"text":"他既然已經是通緝犯了照理講他就已經犯了相關的一些刑責那已經有案底或有刑責的人他居然可以在外面趴趴走然後還去做這樣子高危險的事情我想任何國家都不應該允許來第二個部分"},{"start":15163.97,"end":15192.149,"text":"追捕的過程裡面當然大家也有看到就是說我們員警非常英勇本系列一而再再三支持我們的員警但是在這個案件裡面有提到是說這一個凶嫌他拿刀但是我們有看到他就在頂樓的圍捕的時候其實我們的員警相對來講有警棍 有手電筒可是那個距離跟長度也會讓人家覺得說如果真的有衝突的時候其實他跟那個刀的長度是差不多的"},{"start":15192.708,"end":15215.39,"text":"那我們也看到國外也有一些案例不管是日本美國日本或是歐洲等等的有用較長的這一些防範性的武器或者是制止的武器我們有沒有考慮類似的這樣子這個是有我想就是要在第一次因為很多委員都問了就是說那個狀況是一個"},{"start":15216.731,"end":15244.414,"text":"緊急而且是一個跟時間賽跑所以當時是入口有一個交通港交通港是沒有佩戴槍支那一發這個訊息就通報那通報到線上線上去都是有帶槍的派出所是有要下班的也趕過去我覺得就是當然是這是我們這個是一個一個警察的這個第一時間的反應到未來可能要更加精進他應該是要領用裝備再去"},{"start":15245.575,"end":15259.771,"text":"那我覺得就是說很多的這個時間都是跟時間在做賽跑那當然領悟專輩的時間會應該會延遲領悟專輩大概超過兩三分鐘去可能他又犯人"},{"start":15260.552,"end":15284.649,"text":"你看那個時間他可能就本期現在提醒的是說我們你講的所謂領用裝備他可能是指的是槍支那槍支就會再派出所或是再分局但本期現在講的是說我們不要到最後就陷入是說警察能不能領了槍支然後能不能在現場用槍因為這可能又有更深像網路上這兩天也有在討論就是說為什麼警察到最後不敢用槍因為可能用槍之後如果說因為今天這個凶嫌"},{"start":15285.049,"end":15308.981,"text":"不會說不敢用槍啦對我知道我說如果說他今天真的用槍還要寫報告等等部分後續有一些反鎖但是請龍雪本席提醒我們也看到有國外有很多這種重大的公共運輸場域的暴力攻擊衝突等等他其實是用譬如說比較長的武器包括說那個繩索等等的把他給制止"},{"start":15309.421,"end":15338.251,"text":"或是要把他給絆倒讓他失去行動能力那其實兩三個人來配合兩三位有訓練有所有員警配合不要是一個單打獨鬥那這樣子就可以拉開距離並且保護我們員警的安全也可以迅速的制止那這一些裝備跟武器他就不也許就不僅是只能儲存在派出所或是分局他也許是重大的一些地方或是說甚至警車上面等等的他就可以有配置"},{"start":15339.198,"end":15365.753,"text":"那未來有沒有針對這部分能夠再做進一步的討論這個我們來嚴厲啦就是說對於可能就是比較密集或者人潮聚集的場所這一些的這個這個我們的警力配屬單位再加上這個配備上的一個配置因為我們希望讓遠景可以有安全情況今天是真的沒事發生那如果說他是做困獸之鬥假設遠景在圍牆上就是在頂樓的時候他做困獸之鬥來攻擊遠景"},{"start":15367.864,"end":15394.663,"text":"以手電筒等等來講的話其實跟他的距離是沒有優勢的本席是要提出這一句手電筒是當時在做照明的那我是說他員警手上的武器是沒有優勢跟他的距離是沒有優勢的本席還是在強調是說如果說有較長的武器能夠把他給絆倒把他給圍捕的話員警才會有優勢那最後還是一樣我想一分鐘再確認一下因為案件在"},{"start":15396.174,"end":15416.15,"text":"5點23分就已經有一位余先生他到時候不幸身亡那其實已經發生了命案了但到了6點34分這個兇嫌才跑到這所謂的中山站跟這個南溪成品這邊那其實距離也算近他還是在那一個生活圈範圍裡面捷運站一兩站的一個距離"},{"start":15416.872,"end":15444.646,"text":"那本席想要講的是說其實不只是細胞簡訊因為5.23分已經發生可是我們還沒有掌握兇嫌等於說兇嫌是在逃他等於是逃犯那如果說我們有一個機制能夠讓周邊的民眾了解就是說有這樣的一個在逃的危險人物那會不會讓當6點34分當民眾看到他在馬路上有異樣的時候大家就多一份警覺"},{"start":15445.822,"end":15457.442,"text":"不然其實很多人都講到是說當6點34分在那個中山站南溪成品前面的馬路上他在丟擲煙霧彈的時候有人以為是拍電影"},{"start":15459.514,"end":15487.326,"text":"對不對可是5點23分已經發生命案了如果說沒有5點23分的命案的話那也許大家不知道他是突然出現但本席現在提到的是說5點23分已經發生命案那如果說那周邊的民眾有辦法知道說現在有一個極端危險的人正在逃脫請大家密切注意互相提醒周邊發生可疑的人事物請一定馬上通報警方那是不是可能在6點34分"},{"start":15488.887,"end":15506.491,"text":"當他再出現在中山捷運站的時候民眾看到可能會多一份警覺就不會以為他是拍電影而是就會自然聯想到說是不是有可能這就是兇險這一個部分未來可以做什麼樣的加強那我們對於這個部分如果有更正確的信息應該可以嚴厲來辦理"},{"start":15509.232,"end":15534.295,"text":"署長因為本席要提醒的是當天本席在新北市跑行程也是看變成是說看社群看這些推播的新聞但是都沒有辦法了解事實的全貌而且到底他有沒有被逮捕或說現在情況怎麼樣不明但如果說在那周邊的民眾能夠有更警覺的一個訊息那也許大家會多一份警覺你可以同意嗎"},{"start":15535.996,"end":15541.199,"text":"我想就是說未來在訊息的這個部分要更正確讓我們更省勢嚴厲來做一個處理好感謝本席三個提問謝謝謝謝洪門凱文的發言"},{"start":15554.403,"end":15567.206,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在陳雪生委員陳雪生委員陳雪生委員不在現在我們請吳佩奕委員發言好謝謝主席我請交通部次長請交通部次長"},{"start":15587.708,"end":15606.239,"text":"市長好 我們台北車站發生了重大人為維安事件我們警政署此定調那就在上個禮拜五在北車也就是在我的選區台北市的中正區那首先我要非常的感謝我們第一線的警察同仁還有我們北捷高鐵的迅速的應變"},{"start":15607.119,"end":15617.321,"text":"同時我們也看到很多的民眾一起起身勇敢的來協助組黨包括不幸過世的余家廠先生他破壞了行兇者的計畫這拯救了很多人的一命那包括了我們北車星巴克的店員趕緊拉下鐵門百貨公司的員工也協助來撤離等等的這是非常的感謝但是我們同樣要檢討的是能不能夠更好的預防"},{"start":15633.004,"end":15635.265,"text":"那因為台北車站他是一個多鐵共購的場域所以我在總質詢的時候也請拜託我們院長還有部長在我們台北車站我們的跟台鐵跟北捷高鐵好多個單位之間我們的協同勤務這個一定要務必要來加強"},{"start":15654.172,"end":15658.617,"text":"我們看一下這個就不只是一個單位或一個場所的風險它其實構成是場域風險像這一次這個歹徒他從台北車站到中山站是透過地下街在移動的那麼我們地下街其實可以連接台鐵高鐵跟機捷代表這個風險都是相同的"},{"start":15674.176,"end":15684.767,"text":"那再來呢這兩天北捷跟高鐵也收到了這個恐嚇的訊息所以呢我要請教的是因為在今年的10月台北車站發生性侵事件之後大家就在討論是我們台北車站聯合防災中心這個聯合的機制2019年的時候就成立了"},{"start":15694.156,"end":15711.373,"text":"那麼我在這個SOP當中看到我們當然每一季演練一次那麼在演練的情境當中也包括了無差別攻擊這樣子的演練上一次我們台北車站聯合防災中心針對無差別攻擊進行演練是什麼時候"},{"start":15714.671,"end":15732.705,"text":"包委員就台北車站的我們有公共車站的聯合防災會議那上一次針對那個無差別的演練應該是在三年前詳細時間我會再提供我看到的資料上一次針對無差別攻擊演練也就在2019年"},{"start":15734.386,"end":15760.976,"text":"當然我們台鐵自己本來每年就針對恐攻有做演練但是我剛強調台北車站他是一個多鐵共購的場域那麼請問這一次聯合防災中心在這一次案件當中他發揮了什麼作用例如說第一個這個訊息是從哪裡來收到的是我跟委員報告我想剛提到了聯合防災中心因為整個台北大台北車站包括很多市鐵台鐵高鐵"},{"start":15761.874,"end":15783.547,"text":"陶傑北傑那另外一個四街就是四個地下街的一個業者另外一個微風大概總共九個單位所以這九個單位成立一個所謂的台北車站的聯合防災中心那平常是有人在監看的那有發生事情的時候這個的指揮官律定是台北車站的站長台北車站的站長"},{"start":15784.488,"end":15798.967,"text":"那這個在這次上禮拜五的這個情況發生以後馬上第一時間就通知不管是110也好或者是台北市消防局還有119接著一樣通知這九個業者"},{"start":15799.508,"end":15817.69,"text":"全部都要進駐到每個單位要派一名人員進駐我們在什麼時間進駐這邊看到的應該是在28分就通知了所以我們是確實有啟動的我也有看到那我請教一下因為這一次後來發現北捷有傳出監視器故障"},{"start":15818.631,"end":15835.88,"text":"但是我們在這個聯合防災中心我們各個單位的監視器本來就是有整合 借接的嘛那之前我們有沒有收貨通報呢照理說這故障應該不會是當下即時發生的不知道什麼時候故障 有沒有收貨通報這個沒有我們在SOP裡面有沒有訂定相關的程序"},{"start":15841.543,"end":15859.938,"text":"總共有九個單位所以它監視器非常非常的多沒有辦法全部一次都有那當然未來我們可以要求剛剛講這九個單位必須如果你有這樣的監視器的問題應該要通報那我們也會未來在聯合防災中心這部分我們來加強是沒錯這就要拜託交通部了因為我們剛剛講到這一個台北車展它牽涉到單位很多各個場域之間風險是相通的這有可能這個風險有可能跑到我們基捷去這台灣的國門"},{"start":15871.107,"end":15891.979,"text":"所以呢要拜託一下像監視器故障這個照理說每個單位平常都有例行性在巡查的有問題有故障就要報休不是災害發生了才發現故障所以要請你們在這個你們聯合的單位當中請各個單位大家要來配合務必要盡量把治安的死角降到最低謝謝市長慶輝那最後請給我兩分鐘我邀請內政部部長有請劉部長"},{"start":15903.987,"end":15912.81,"text":"部長好 這一次的事件令人相當的遺憾但是全民也開始重視其實民防它很重要因為我們在害不知道什麼時候要發生但我們平時可以來做準備所以我們台灣全民安全指引因為像我自己就有收到我們李明打電話來問我說要去哪裡領什麼時候可以收得到"},{"start":15922.333,"end":15951.493,"text":"因為裡面他包含了例如說面對有毒物質要怎麼應變如果旁邊有這個大量出血的傷患的話我們怎麼樣來協助目前我們什麼時候全民安全指引全國可以發放完畢現在台北市已經全部發放完畢那目前全台灣發送的比例是86.6是那我們預計是在什麼時候會發放完畢在農曆年前可以發放完畢因為我們是國防部在印的時候他是分四個階段在印所以他一印完我們就馬上請這個村裡辦公室為主來發放"},{"start":15952.333,"end":15968.341,"text":"是有沒有規劃做社區對民眾面對面的宣傳說明會報告委員我們現在因為我們認為說在非六都的16個縣市都會到這個大型群眾聚集的地方尤其是宮廟所以我們現在安排大概已經有六七場了"},{"start":15969.982,"end":15990.113,"text":"我們非常支持我們認為要多推廣民眾民防相關的知識但是呢我們也支持要給足相關的預算我們這次大家都希望說公務同仁要給他足夠的糧草民防也是請問我們今年的全民全社會防衛任性的預算有在年度預算裡面有沒有被刪除"},{"start":15991.735,"end":15994.2,"text":"我看到的是我們被刪除了2900萬那後來呢針對全身防衛任性的訓練我們有沒有內政部有沒有來辦理追加預算"},{"start":16001.666,"end":16019.815,"text":"追加預算沒有後來就是把這個被刪除的地方在那個再回復後面有再回復我看到了我們在這個追加預算審查的時候跟這個民房相關的預算還有在被刪除甚至還有被凍結的那凍結的預算是什麼時候解凍的"},{"start":16023.285,"end":16042.797,"text":"好像到上個月11月底才來解凍已經快過完了來不及了所以再一次的我要拜託因為很多民眾來跟我們要求也提醒希望我們把民防相關的這些知識跟常識可以多加來推廣我們要拜託立法院所有的同仁大家共同來支持預算謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝吳佩奕委員的發言那接下來"},{"start":16052.767,"end":16072.638,"text":"蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在高金素梅委員高金素梅委員高金素梅委員不在林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在登記發言委員除不在長者外其餘均已發言完畢"},{"start":16074.586,"end":16096.232,"text":"詢問結束委員 劉建國 高進 宿美希 新穎 林倩琦 楊瓊英 蘇清泉所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報3 書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":16164.466,"end":16165.748,"text":"到底有沒有掌握到陰謀論"},{"start":16185.589,"end":16194.445,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅"}]}},{"id":"17142","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17142","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373dc22d0fafdfecfd60118ebd802bc82dca3fa04411479d882ada8df6e7a09d1bf95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"「從不當考題到調查爭議—檢視性別平等教育法在教學與事件處理之實務困境」公聽會（事由：立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-22T08:37:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-22T11:22:00+08:00","duration":9884,"影片長度":"02:44:44","委員發言時間":"08:37:16 - 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代表好再來是國教行動聯盟常務理事台北市民族實驗中學家長他也是常務理事張文昌 代表好"},{"start":1793.957,"end":1816.228,"text":"为了让大家等一下能够顺利表达意见每位贵宾发言时间六分钟在第五分钟的时候我们会有铃声提醒六分钟结束的时候也会有一个结束铃声第二项专家学者发言以签名先后顺序为准"},{"start":1817.688,"end":1840.078,"text":"現場的發言還有書面資料立法院都會做成記錄刊登公報第三 在場立法委員如有意見發表請於10點前登記我們也會在會議當中進行穿插並以在場委員的登記順序發言委員如果要發言的話請到主席台這邊登記"},{"start":1842.25,"end":1864.896,"text":"那我們現在就是就先請教育部朱俊璋次長就現行的規定執行狀況相關的問題提出說明時間是五分鐘那朱次長發言完之後會請簽名順序第一位的專家學者台中市立育英國中胡維倫主任發言那我們就請次長"},{"start":1868.308,"end":1890.777,"text":"各位委員團體代表與會的女士先生大家早安今日針對從不當考題到調查爭議檢視性別平等教育法在教學與事件處理上的實務困境供應會由教育部進行報告並聆聽各位委員團體代表及與會女士先生的著見深感榮幸以下"},{"start":1891.357,"end":1919.978,"text":"就本部相關措施提出報告敬請各位委員與先進指導與支持性別平等教育法以下簡稱性平法自施行以來涵蓋了性平課程與教學與學校性別事件調查處理的機制等相關規定以下本部就性別平等事件之調查人員保密規範以及本部推動性平課程教學及相關調查處理機制進行說明"},{"start":1921.84,"end":1944.606,"text":"在校園性別事件調查專業人員方面一在資格部分性評法第33條及校園性別事件防制準則第22條頁明定調查小組成員的積極與消極資格在專業二在專業性部分性評法第33條頁規定了校園性別事件調查"},{"start":1945.686,"end":1969.195,"text":"专业素养的专家学者人数三本部提升持续提升调查人员培训及深度及管度参加校园性别事件调查专业人员培训人员需完成初阶进阶及高阶培训合计75个小时的课程才可以列入本部调查专业人才库"},{"start":1969.915,"end":1996.896,"text":"二 在处理校园性别事件的保密规范方面一 校园事件防制准的第25条规定附有保密义务者包含参与处理校园性别事件的所有人员二 参与事件处理之学校或主管机关人员堂有涉及违反性评法锁定保密规定经性评会调查属实者"},{"start":1997.817,"end":2023.667,"text":"除依相关规定一除外并应依性平法第43条规定报主管机关除以新台币1万元以上15万元以下的花款三至于是否违反各支法或相关民行事所定泄密规定则由其个人负起法律责任三在课程教学推动其相关处理机制方面"},{"start":2026.654,"end":2047.784,"text":"在高級中等以下學校為了提升教師性別性平等議題的智能本部國教署已經成立了中央性平輔導團並補助地方政府成立地方性平輔導團發展及推廣性平教育議題融入領域的教學設計並透過"},{"start":2050.174,"end":2066.545,"text":"性别平等教育资源中心持续的培训性平教育种子教师研发性平教育课程地图及教学教案的示例来协助老师在教学活动的规划能够符合性平的意志二"},{"start":2067.466,"end":2088.537,"text":"另有關憑良的命題及審庭機制依照國民小學及國民中學正常教學實施要點公示立國民中小學正常教學勢導實施計畫以及教育部主管高級中等學校教學正常化自我檢核事項裡面針對各校自我檢查"},{"start":2089.517,"end":2118.926,"text":"检核的题目学校应督导教师要依照课程的计划的课程目标来命题定期评量时也应该落实审题跟回避的原则同时地方政府应督导主管学校于定期评量时落实审题机制本部国教署也在研发评量工具之性品平等概念检核表作为老师在评量设计有具体的条目可以来做检核在大专校园部分"},{"start":2119.426,"end":2145.329,"text":"本部每年也透過書面審查的指標來檢視大專校院在學習環境課程教材跟教學以及課程的命題評量工具的推動情形是否符合性評法第二章第三章的規定同時也透過市區的大專校院性評推廣中心來協助檢視各校在性評事件的處理並提供相關諮詢"},{"start":2146.65,"end":2149.212,"text":"希望藉由這上述的措施來持續推動校園事件的相關方式謝謝各位"},{"start":2177.557,"end":2207.207,"text":"好 謝謝朱次長那在第一位發言前我也先進一步說明就是剛剛沒有說明的提綱的部分那第一個關於那個調查委員性平意識不足的部分主要是因為現行性別平等教育法33條規範校園的性別事件調查小組成員面向包括組成是否外聘應據性別平等意識女性成員不得少於總數的二分之"},{"start":2208.268,"end":2223.075,"text":"另外依照教育部的校園性侵害性騷擾或性霸凌調查專業人員培訓及調查專業人才庫建制要點的規範調查專業人員培訓資格在裡面有相關的規範"},{"start":2224.896,"end":2243.784,"text":"另外 依照各級學校性別平等教育委員會設置準則 針對性評會的委員則有不得違反防害性自主罪章 性別平等教育法 性別平等工作法不得有未尊重他人性別認同性傾向等消極資格"},{"start":2245.525,"end":2260.644,"text":"當然這些規定都有目前實務上的問題比較是仍然有社會大眾會質疑調查成員及專業人員的專業度不夠公正性不夠還有性平意識薄弱等那就如同剛剛講的"},{"start":2261.485,"end":2278.05,"text":"也發生學校調查的結果跟監察院的調查結果或司法判決的結果不一樣的問題理論上學校是行政調查應該要更能保護受害者可是後來的結果好像常會發生幾次相反"},{"start":2278.71,"end":2296.233,"text":"原所以提請各界就如何確保校園性別事件調查小組成員的性平意識調查及決議準則的部分提出看法跟建議那這是關於性平調查的成員的專業度性平意識等"},{"start":2297.612,"end":2313.573,"text":"第二個關於調查過程中的保密跟行政疏失主要是因為現行有關校園性別事件調查處理的保密規範定於《性別平等教育法》第23條只是近期發生校園師長"},{"start":2314.895,"end":2336.745,"text":"行政及當事人檢舉人等相關人等與網路實體或私下各種場域討論及案情或當事人資料的情形引起各界討論包含如何是要保障言論自由跟受教權跟隱私跟調查公正性這幾者之間如何橫平"},{"start":2338.205,"end":2353.01,"text":"所以也請各界討論學校或主管機關及當事人檢舉人及其他相關人等之保密義務對象及範圍是不是有疏漏就是需要修正或者是加強宣傳的部分"},{"start":2353.99,"end":2377.075,"text":"那最后关于就是教学内容或考题的性别歧视或偏差那性评法是否要有机制处理因为目前性评法的规定是只有用性骚或性霸凌有被害人指控的时候才能调查那实质上就是我们有过新闻都有报道的"},{"start":2377.795,"end":2405.025,"text":"金門京城國中的健康科考卷案還有民傳大學英語系老師在課堂用線上實名問卷問學生這些都有進入調查我想這部分也是回來看就是我們的法規是不是有疏漏的地方這部分有附上一個本席提案的性平法修法草案"},{"start":2405.385,"end":2425.501,"text":"也請各界指教以上是針對提綱的一個比較詳細的說明現在我們就請登記我們第一號台中市立育英國民中學的胡維倫主任發言下一位是全國教育產業總工會的林理事長請準備"},{"start":2445.563,"end":2458.552,"text":"主席各位委員各位長官各位先進大家好我是來自台中市立義運國中的老師目前在學校擔任總務主任我的名字叫胡維倫也是國教署校園性別事件防制資源中心的諮詢委員"},{"start":2462.575,"end":2491.135,"text":"同時也具備教育部還有台中市校園性別事件調查人才庫的資格今天真的很榮幸有這個機會來到這一場公聽會然後針對剛剛主席所提的三個討論重點這邊提出我在實務現場的一些觀察還有建議首先是第一個關於調查人員的專業能力還有汰除機制的部分就誠如主席剛剛所說的其實它都有規範在我們的"},{"start":2492.115,"end":2506.873,"text":"专业人才培训还有建制要点里面像是我们三年需要参加精进研习的这样子的一个培训然后就是五年之内我们必须要有实际案件的调查或者是申付的这样子的一个处理"},{"start":2507.233,"end":2528.001,"text":"然後假如他有違反我們的公平公正這樣子的一些專業的一些狀況就是這些都是要被太處的但是實際上我們在實務上面我們還是會比較有幾個擔心首先是第一個就是我們的主管機關是不是有定期的去檢視我們的人才庫因為如果說上面的這三個是"},{"start":2529.541,"end":2547.736,"text":"我們要去做淘汰的那我們的主管機關有沒有去定期的去做這樣子的一個動作再來第二個就是這些被移除的人有沒有公告然後有沒有告知這個當事人本身因為有的時候我們會遇到就是這個可能有一些狀況的這個調查人員就是"},{"start":2550.758,"end":2573.608,"text":"他还继续在接案然后学校可能也不知道所以还会继续跟他做一个搭配就是学校会有误用的这样子的一个情形再来第三个就是我们有要求就是我们的调查人员要回来做一个精进的一个回流演习但我们的精进课程的设计是不是有跟上我们最新的法规有没有最新的概念"},{"start":2574.048,"end":2594.201,"text":"然後有沒有融入在我們的一個課程設計裡面這個也是比較能夠去確保我們的調查人員他的智能是可以與時俱進的這個部分也是我們比較有一些擔心的再來第四個就是在我們的建制要點的第八點跟第九點其實是有提到就是如果我們可以透過外部的檢舉"},{"start":2595.021,"end":2610.22,"text":"假如去发觉说这一个调查人员他是有一些专业上面的偏颇然后调查能力上面可能有一些状况的话是可以透过一个检举的机制然后我们的主管机关会召开审查会议去做一个审核但是这种检举机制"},{"start":2611.261,"end":2632.466,"text":"如果說就是我們自己主管機關自己本身在我們的性品捷報系統上面其實是有去檢查到就是他上來的調查報告不是這麼好的時候我們自己主管機關有沒有一個我們自己內部的一個監督機制可以去汰除這一個不適任的這樣子的一個人員"},{"start":2633.966,"end":2663.166,"text":"这边我们还是会比较希望就是因为我们目前除了教育部还有国教署我们有培训调查人才我们22县市也都有各自的培训的这样子的一个机制感觉我们培训出来的人数还蛮大的但是除了量之外我们品质上面有没有办法同步去做一个提升就是有值有量那怎么样子去太除掉比较弱的这样子的调查人员留下一个比较强的调查人员这样子的一个"},{"start":2663.966,"end":2677.038,"text":"一個一個手法一個機制這是在第一點我們提出就是我這邊提出的一個一個建議就是怎麼樣就是太弱留強在第二個關於保密的這一個部分這邊跟"},{"start":2678.88,"end":2696.338,"text":"主席還有跟各位先進報告就是我們有的時候在實務現場我們所看到的那個沒有保密的其實常常都不是安靜處理人員本身而是校內其他的人因為他們可能是關心然後可能就是把它當成有一點茶餘飯後的這樣子的那個"},{"start":2697.299,"end":2711.126,"text":"聊天chat這樣子但是這樣子的談論即便是管型但是他還是不妥適的然後甚至於可能會對我們的當事人有一個惡毒傷害然後案情會外流因為他可能"},{"start":2712.096,"end":2728.436,"text":"同仁在辦公室聊得比較開心然後可能有人在旁邊走來走去的沒有沒有去意識到所以我們會我這邊會建議說未來在修法的時候是不是我們可以再擴大一點就是我們校內教職員工的一個保密責任的這樣子的一個適用範圍然後讓"},{"start":2730.498,"end":2749.721,"text":"比较多部分就是参与我们学校运作的教职员工都比较能够去明确的知道说他们应该要保密的这样子的义务这是关于第2点的部分再来第3点是涉及到课程教学教材还有教学的部分确实我们有看到了我们的那个不当考题还有教材的这样子的"},{"start":2750.341,"end":2770.995,"text":"發生然後這邊也反映了我們教師性平意識的一個不足我們有看到就是我們教育部國教署有預計要去開發我們的一個相關的一個評量工具然後這個評量工具可以來做一個對於針對性平概念性平意識來做一個檢核然後我們這邊很期待就是這個檢核表可以"},{"start":2771.375,"end":2794.43,"text":"尽快完成然后让我们的老师未来在出题还有审题的时候可以去检视是不是有性别偏见或者是性别刻板印象然后也透过这样子的一个检核表可以去强化老师的性别的一个觉察然后逐步去改善我们教学现场当中教学还有评量的一个公正性以上就是我的报告谢谢"},{"start":2796.996,"end":2810.482,"text":"非常谢谢胡维伦主任再来我们请第二位全国教育产业总工会的理事长林慧蓉发言新竹市教师职业工会的梁立文理事长请准备"},{"start":2817.226,"end":2836.586,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位先進大家早安我是全國教育產業總工會理事長林慧蓉那我想今天要談的是兩個部分一個是有關於調查小組成員的培訓然後第二個是性平法第十八十九二十條跟處理機制"},{"start":2838.708,"end":2853.188,"text":"首先第一個部分是學校目前私生案跟情節較重大的案件都已經是學校會傾向於用外聘人才庫的專業調查人員所以應該主管機關要回到培訓的課程"},{"start":2856.352,"end":2874.734,"text":"目前各縣市的培訓機制大概是初階是三天然後進階是三天然後高階四天我想請各位衡量一下十天的培訓機制就有可能調查到一個性侵案"},{"start":2875.695,"end":2900.148,"text":"然後失聲的性侵案然後他要決定一個老師的工作權或者是這一個被害人是不是有成立這一個問題是非常嚴重而且非常危險的所以我希望主管機關應該要辦理而且要通知每一個調查人員每年做回流培訓並且應該要有長設的回流課程"},{"start":2900.988,"end":2929.257,"text":"再來是課程的部分應該要針對法規的更新時事的議題 調查方法還有調查技巧 尤其是解問技巧有太多的調查委員其實都有引導式的問話這個部分非常需要來做培訓那再來是報告的論述跟撰寫大部分的調查委員並不是從法學的背景來出生所以他有"},{"start":2930.077,"end":2942.284,"text":"在做報告的時候會有非常多的報告裡面的內容瑕疵而導致後面相關的當事人必須要做申付申訴影響很重大"},{"start":2944.52,"end":2962.061,"text":"再來我們也希望主管機關應該要每三年檢討一次調查人才庫的人員那三年內沒有參加過任何調查會議或者是沒有參加回流訊的應該要註記或者是取消資格"},{"start":2965,"end":2981.04,"text":"然後再來是主管機關應該每年要培訓學校相關的承辦人員包含校長主任尤其是人事主任然後校安人員跟組長避免再處理"},{"start":2981.941,"end":3010.016,"text":"性別事件的行政流程中有疏失衍生後面不斷的重啟調查或者是行政訴訟等等被害人會有二次或三次的傷害而我到目前為止我還有聽說過學校居然有校長找老師家長去私下用和解的賠錢這樣子的情況應該不能出現在校園裡"},{"start":3012.639,"end":3036.326,"text":"再來主管機關應該要要求學校是落實每年的性評研習而且性評委員會應該要參加那我全教材也希望性評的課程裡面應該要有所謂的性評法相關的法規再來是樣態的辨識這些對於一般基層的老師都是相對的重要那再來是"},{"start":3043.951,"end":3065.036,"text":"性平法第18、19跟20條的處理機制這是第二項消失會議目前已經因為匿名檢舉跟匿名檢舉後續的但書影響整個交易職場全教廠不贊成也不建議當事人提供證據之後就可以匿名檢舉理由是因為第一個部分"},{"start":3066.096,"end":3087.548,"text":"性平法當初在立法的時候是以教育跟輔導為主後續調查屬實學校有法定的輔導跟相關的法律機制來輔導協助這個被害人可是如果在調查訪談的時候沒有訪問到被害人那調查小組就只能用現有的證據跟行為人"},{"start":3088.368,"end":3112.407,"text":"的訪談內容來做認定那假設最後的結果不成立可能又會影響被害人他不滿意然後影響後面申請調查的資格跟那個調查瑕疵那就會來來回回的反覆行政程序這是一個很嚴重的問題那再來是性評法裡面"},{"start":3114.608,"end":3136.913,"text":"第18、19、20條是規定學校的課程教材跟教師的教學可是高中以下的學校編寫審查跟選用是被限縮在教育部的版本如果版本是有問題的這一個部分教育部身為主管機關應該有最優先的把關的責任"},{"start":3139.11,"end":3167.357,"text":"那如果有違反性平法就責的應該是教育部然後教師的教學應該要回歸性平法的處理機制避免跌床駕屋也有相關的考核辦法等懲處機制避免有重複懲處的問題然後在最後針對教學狀況如果涉及情節重大應該要回歸教師法跟解平辦法有教學不力的處理機制以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":3169.417,"end":3185.888,"text":"好 谢谢全国教育产业总工会的理事长林慧蓉的那个跟大家的分享那再来我们请第三位新竹市教育职业工会理事长梁立文发言那李雅金副秘书长请准备"},{"start":3201.454,"end":3224.547,"text":"主席各位長官各位與會的對教育議題關心的夥伴們大家早安大家好我是新竹市教師職業工會理事長梁麗文性別平等教育法實施到今天已經20年那作為教育工作者我們絕對肯定它為受害者撐開了保護傘"},{"start":3226.608,"end":3252.529,"text":"補足了我們在過往中校園中被掩蓋的傷痛然而站在第一線我們必須嚴正的指出我們必須嚴正的指出這張原本是用來保護學生的防護網在執行上正逐漸演變成癱瘓校園行政的枷鎖以及扼殺教師教學的緊箍咒"},{"start":3254.423,"end":3263.071,"text":"性別平等法第一條說我們要建立性別平等的教育環境但現在的環境是什麼我想從幾個實務的觀察跟主張開始說明"},{"start":3269.164,"end":3286.946,"text":"第一點 主觀感受取代了客觀的標準現行實務上對於性騷擾的認定過度放大當事人的主觀感受只要學生說一句我不舒服不論前因後果老師就得面臨漫長的調查審判"},{"start":3289.969,"end":3315.006,"text":"舉個實際案例一個國中老師在課堂上希望學生要有正確的性知識他提到了A片這兩個字結果真的被檢舉了就被學生檢舉法規上只要是失對生的疑似案件大家知道就一定要調查那接下來呢老師就得面對漫長的調查以及等待"},{"start":3316.819,"end":3344.293,"text":"這種氛圍造成了嚴重的防禦性教學的效應一個老師在課堂上動輒得咎充滿恐懼請問他要如何教導學生尊重與自信這是違背了性平法維護人格尊嚴的初衷同時老師他也沒有辦法舉實例他也只能照本宣科我想這影響最大的是學生的受教權"},{"start":3345.779,"end":3374.616,"text":"好 第二點疑似通報造成了行政超載性評法第22條規定疑似案件24小時內通報這條款的本意是在防止隱匿但現在卻造成了在校園中任何微小的摩擦只要沾上一點邊學校就怕被罰款於是採取寧可多報也不能漏報的策略"},{"start":3375.848,"end":3379.675,"text":"結果導致通報的案件數量暴增甚至氾濫成災"},{"start":3382.154,"end":3404.899,"text":"請大家看一下這個數據這是教育部學生事務特殊教育司的統計資料我們就以國小案階段為例在去年113年疑似校園性騷擾通報案件數量就達9477件它佔了所有從大家看到這些學制裡面的四成五以上"},{"start":3406.092,"end":3431.329,"text":"那大家看到這個歷年的趨勢圖它不只是一個統計圖表它也是一道可能造成行政崩壞的一個海嘯曲線大家看一下從圖表中我們很清晰的看見早年的通報量相對都比較平穩但這幾年卻呈現了指數型的垂直暴增試問"},{"start":3434.557,"end":3446.743,"text":"難道現在的校園比10年前還危險了10倍嗎顯然不是這道異常陡峭的上升曲線反映的正是我們被迫凝爛霧缺的後果"},{"start":3447.725,"end":3462.404,"text":"那9477件這數字意味著光在國小全國平均每天就有約26件案子進入通報程序那每個縣市每個月就將近要處理36件國小通報案"},{"start":3465.662,"end":3490.468,"text":"請大家正視這個數字背後龐大的行政成本因為剛剛主任也有報告我們在學校裡面處理這近一萬件的通報案學校行政端必須耗費大量的心力在聯繫各方人員在安排調查時間在聯繫家長以及無止盡的公文往返還有進度報核"},{"start":3491.528,"end":3503.085,"text":"這些繁瑣的程序客觀上其實佔了非常大的教育能量導致學校被迫在處理行政流程跟品質上做出取捨"},{"start":3505.014,"end":3526.172,"text":"那第三我想說的是區隔教學世道與性騷擾教學上的問題我們希望回歸到教學專業教學內容的爭議不只有這些考題問題剛提到的只是講了兩個字也會被調查這是規定那我們必須強調我們老師也是性別教育的學習者"},{"start":3526.812,"end":3536.18,"text":"那希望我們對於出犯或非惡意的教材跟教法的正義我們應該給的是教育而不是懲罰所以我們建議"},{"start":3538.578,"end":3566.499,"text":"應該優先採取輔導的手段讓老師命其接受性平教育課程修正教材或教學輔導為主那也希望降低行政懲處那這些懲處呢希望只限在經過輔導人拒絕修正或情節重大且惡意的一些累犯那最後我想提出兩個建議就是非懲罰性的教學機制跟明確劃清界線以上 謝謝"},{"start":3568.919,"end":3586.357,"text":"好 谢谢梁立文我们新竹市教师职业工会的理事长具体的建议再来我们请全国教师工会总联合会副秘书长李亚金那下一位邱俊佑EDU请准备"},{"start":3587.417,"end":3613.247,"text":"各位關心性平教育的夥伴們大家早安我是全國教師公會總聯合會副秘書長李雅菁那今天在這邊想要表達幾個性平法我們都知道它在2004年施行到現在20年了那最近一致修法堪稱幅度最大而且應該是首度一次性共同修正性別平等教育法性別平等工作法以及性騷擾防治法那我覺得這個"},{"start":3614.307,"end":3638.026,"text":"法的一個訂定它當然有宣示的一些效果在它的重點是加強了加害人的裁罰機制增加了被害人的權益保障還有強化了性騷擾防治制度那調查處理機制上性平法的確因為它涉及的一方是學生而學生本來就屬於權力不對等的一方"},{"start":3638.726,"end":3664.583,"text":"所以我们在性别事件调查处理程序目前真的已经实施多年它已经相当的严谨所以也就是在这一次性评法修法大家如果去注意它对于调查处理程序上并没有做过度的修正也就是我讲的是指性评法在调查程序上然后它仅针对一件事情就是防治权势性骚扰"},{"start":3665.644,"end":3685.113,"text":"如果規定如果行為人是校長或教職員工調查小組的成員必須全部外聘那這也就是過去以往我們整個性平的調查程序他已經是非常嚴謹應該是比所謂的性騷擾或性攻法的一個調查程序更為嚴謹的一個機制"},{"start":3686.914,"end":3715.787,"text":"好那另外這一次還有一個很重要的修正重點在性評法第40條也就是他比照了教師法第26條的規範新增了一個主管機關監督處理機制也就是今天如果發現性評會學校性評會他有違法程序調查的瑕疵他是可以退回退回學校性評會再次審議那如果性評會的再次審議仍然"},{"start":3717.348,"end":3734.64,"text":"能有瑕疵那就会回来是不是由主管机关的性评会去做一个审议那他的决议会是同学校性评性评会的一个决议我想这几点应该是已经在这一次性评法已经受到"},{"start":3735.741,"end":3757.808,"text":"調查程序上的一個改進那目前我們在但是我覺得我現在要提的一個重點是目前我們在處理性別偏見或者是性別歧視我們的確會把類型歸回到校園性騷擾或性霸凌的案件審理那這個的確我們原本的機制就可以處理所謂"},{"start":3759.228,"end":3787.343,"text":"性霸凌所謂的原本我們說的性別歧視或性別偏見那如果我們今天要為了這些類型單列一個調查處理程序我們會認為它會跌床架屋而且極有可能掛一路外也就它處理的程序沒有原本那麼嚴謹的一個調查程序那麼完整那更有可能它會形成當我現在把這個類別拉出來那就會受到一個高度的"},{"start":3788.704,"end":3810.443,"text":"解釋那它更容易有小案大辦形成我們現在校事會議的翻版那我們現在的校事會議的翻版事實上最為人所詬病的就是每個案都辦而且就是極小的案件也把它當作解聘的案子來辦那我們即可就會擔心這樣的一個狀況那坦白講"},{"start":3811.144,"end":3839.499,"text":"整個性別刻板印象或性別偏見或者是性別歧視這一些往往高度是受到家庭社會文化的影響那許多傳統保守的看法他極有可能是來自於過去家庭或周遭人的影響他真的一時難以改變坦白講我們周遭人他的確會有很多你一聽就知道是性別刻板印象比方說女孩子不該怎樣但是這一些種種的言行當然"},{"start":3840.419,"end":3851.972,"text":"當然不妥當可是我們更需要時間讓他們從教育潛移默化透過教育的手段去逐步改變他才能真正解決問題單從調查"},{"start":3855.236,"end":3869.512,"text":"然後把這個老師即時抵罰懲處了他的言行依然不會有任何的一個改變他唯有透過這樣教育的手段提升性別意識他才有可能真正做到潛移默化改變"},{"start":3870.353,"end":3898.059,"text":"他的一些原本的性別刻板印象或性別歧視的一些言行那至於調查人員專業性的問題應該回來目前調查人宅庫呢他是由中央各縣市政府自行培訓審議人員的確會發生一種事情也就是中央的培訓以及跟地方的培訓是有所差異他的一個審核的基準移除的程序會有差異"},{"start":3899.099,"end":3915.562,"text":"但是我們應該講目前他這樣的機制已經實行這麼多年我們比較希望期待的是J部他身為中央主管機關他更應落實監督輔導各縣市政府調查人員的培訓以及淘汰機制"},{"start":3916.743,"end":3938.301,"text":"提醒最後30秒就是我們對很多的過度的檢視其實很容易讓目前願意在校內推動性平教育的老師卻步那我覺得我們在設計任何的機制或者是檢視都得要不斷反覆思考這件事以上"},{"start":3941.062,"end":3958.624,"text":"好 謝謝李雅菁全國教師公會總聯合會的副秘書長的建議再來我們就請台灣EDU教育協會倡議專員邱俊佑下一位新北市政府的魏素香請準備"},{"start":3967.135,"end":3982.647,"text":"謝謝主席主席還有各位與會先進以及各位關心教育的朋友們大家好我是台灣EDO教育協會的創意專員邱俊佑那我們是一個由高中生與大學生組成的團體我自己本身也曾經在台北市的心理評論教育委員會擔任過委員然後目前是台北市的青年諮詢委員"},{"start":3983.968,"end":4010.933,"text":"首先我們想先談一下就是調查小組的精進措施以外我們也希望在未來修法時可以同時關注所有性別評論所有性評會裡面的委員培訓現在已經有了一個是對於性評會調查委員的校園性別事件調查智能培訓但是對於其他性評會委員無論是主管機關性評會還是到學校性評會目前都沒有制度性的去建立這樣相關培訓以及培力的措施讓委員們可以來做使用跟禁用"},{"start":4012.193,"end":4026.834,"text":"依照现行的法治在校园性别事件的处理流程当中最后还是需要经过性评会的全体委员决议因此在调查小组之外的委员如果他们的性别平等赔利是不够的对于性别事件处理也一定会造成负面的影响"},{"start":4028.396,"end":4044.005,"text":"所以我們認為除了現有的校園性別事件調查智能培訓以外針對所有性別平等委員都應該要有性別平等委員會的運作流程校園性別事件的案例研習這類的培訓以及培力的資源支持"},{"start":4045.388,"end":4060.462,"text":"接著針對提到第三點當教學中含有性別偏見或歧視但不一定對特定人的構成性糟糕時目前雖然可以依照性平法第二章還有第三章對於課程跟教材的規範透過性平和程序讓教學內容符合性別平等原則"},{"start":4062.045,"end":4077.687,"text":"不過目前因為法規的限制所以這類的內容是無法成立校園性別事件的也因此我們無法依據現有的校園性別事件處理流程來讓當事人也就是行為人接受例如八小時性別平等教育課程的相關措施"},{"start":4079.509,"end":4104.455,"text":"舉例而言之前在某個高中就有一個老師他曾經發表過你們都有點喜歡不男不女的這種韓國男星這類言論那這一次的案件也是有被送到學校性平會不過因為目前的性騷擾定義他並沒有去規範到校園性別歧視或歧視的言辭或行為所以這個案件最後是沒有構成性騷擾也因此無法依據現有的校園性別事件處理程序做出後續的處置"},{"start":4106.496,"end":4129.876,"text":"同樣是性騷擾在校園性別平等教育法以及性別平等工作法有著截然不同的規範性別平等工作法第12條對於性騷擾的定義有包含性別歧視的言辭或行為以及第一性、脅迫性或冒犯性的環境但這類規範並不在性別平等教育法第3條所列的性騷擾構成要件當中我們會認為當教學環境讓學生或教職員工"},{"start":4131.657,"end":4152.618,"text":"處於一個第一性或貿易性的環境當中性別歧視的言詞或行為也應該要納入性別評等教育法的SINCELOID要件之一讓性別歧視的言行可以成立校園性別事件讓性評會可以順利的去准用校園性別事件防制準則讓行為人可以接受例如像性別評等教育相關課程之類的處事"},{"start":4154.159,"end":4175.291,"text":"另外,對於校園性別歧視的防範,我們也期待未來《反歧視法》可以順利通過。藉由《反歧視法》跟《性別平衡交易法》的共同支持,來補足學校的歧視防治以及糾正義務這些內容,共同營造一個更加友善的校園環境。最後,我們還想提另外一點,也就是學校的性平會,它並不只是校園性別事件處理委員會。"},{"start":4176.292,"end":4202.393,"text":"依照性平法第六條性平會它要肩負非常多的義務例如課程發展以及學校年度教學計畫這類的內容都因為性平會的存在才可以讓校內各方交換意見性平會它不僅是負責校園性別事件的調查與審理它更多的是不同處事的合作與溝通平台依照性平法的第七條與第八條在教育部以及各縣市的性平會目前都已經讓學生代表來列入法定的初期成員"},{"start":4203.254,"end":4223.688,"text":"不過來到第九條對於學校姓名會而言並沒有要求學校姓名會需要聘任學生代表為會議成員不過我們當然理解第九條的學校它從國小到大專業校都是在同一個法條裡面做規範因此相當難直接讓學校來去聘任學生代表為會議成員另外也因為姓名會的性質特殊"},{"start":4224.528,"end":4234.577,"text":"面對調查報告也有讓學生承受替代性創傷的風險因此我們理解也認同在相關知識完善之前不宜貿然地將學生代表列入新品會的法定出席成員"},{"start":4235.871,"end":4258.634,"text":"不過學生代表意見表達是相當重要的,例如士大夫中,他們在2020年左右邀請了學生代表來列席校內性別評點委員會,他們也因此而順利地去推動性別友善廁所以及生理用品共享盒這類規範。所以面對這類橫跨多個處事的提案,我們認為如果沒有性別評點委員會這個管道,將難以同時與各處同步溝通,營造更友善的校園性別環境。"},{"start":4259.895,"end":4280.625,"text":"Azure建議,性別平等交易法第九條應該要增列一款,當學校性平會討論不涉及個案之性別平等政策時,應邀請學生代表參與會議。有權代表的意見參與,不僅有助於落實學生的被聆聽權,也可以讓學生的第一線經驗帶入性別平等政策的演繹,來讓性別平等計畫更好地落實於小女當中。"},{"start":4281.961,"end":4310.079,"text":"總結而言我們期待性別評論交易法的改革可以制度性的讓所有的性評會委員都能接受到培力資源同時也期待可以擴大校園性別事件的定義讓性別歧視的言辭或行為可以遵循現有校園性別事件的處理流程來進行後續的處置最後我們更期待學校的性評會也就是第九條可以增列討論通案性性評政策時應邀請學生代表參與會議讓學生的經驗得以納入學校性評會的性評政策研議過程"},{"start":4311.199,"end":4333.16,"text":"以上謝謝大家好謝謝台灣EDU教育協會的倡議專員邱俊佑那他也有提出具體的修法的建議好再來我們請新北市政府教育局聘任督學魏素香發言下一位姓平的學生倡議連線的戴靖茹請準備"},{"start":4337.263,"end":4356.454,"text":"主席各位夥伴們大家早安我是新北市教育局的聘任督學有《性平法》就有我我是從《性平法》公佈之後一直在實務現場在性別平等教育工作上做努力"},{"start":4357.474,"end":4376.805,"text":"當然就包含了有課程教學跟事件的一個處理目前我們現場當中屬於行政調查有三種一種是校事會議的調查一種是霸凌的調查然後另外一種就是我們性別平等教育相關事件的調查"},{"start":4377.825,"end":4380.568,"text":"那就這三個行政調查我本人都有參與就我本人的一個經驗來說以性別平等我們所謂的性平校式的一個調查是最完整最縝密"},{"start":4392.782,"end":4412.617,"text":"而且最符合行政程序法的所有的一個規範對於當事人應有的一個權利比較是著重在所謂的武器隊等老師被提出絕對有相當的機會去做說明而學生的一個教育權的捍衛也是我們教育人員應付的責任"},{"start":4415.879,"end":4435.905,"text":"那在這一個程序上其實性平法的一個規範是很縝密的第二個我想要提到的就是主席這邊有提到的性平意識的一個薄弱那我分兩部分來提供意見第一個有關於調查人員的性平意識的薄弱"},{"start":4436.845,"end":4447.752,"text":"我想在培訓課程我們已經從剛開始剛開始的研習時數性別意識的研習時數這一次我們新的調查人員培訓在意識方面已經增加了10個小時那我們會覺得說一般老師的性平意識的確法規上都有規範"},{"start":4465.642,"end":4491.607,"text":"包括必須每年研習或者課程當中要融入但是有一點就是說他無法去強迫老師你一定要研習以至於我們很多的事件的衍生如果你去問當事人每年的性平研習你參加了沒幾乎都是我那一天剛好有事"},{"start":4492.347,"end":4495.131,"text":"那也就是說這樣的一個環境之下我們的事件當然還是會層出不窮的然後再過來有關於提升我們調查人員的調查品質方面我想性評法"},{"start":4509.628,"end":4524.772,"text":"已經努力了這麼多年我們這一次對於私生愛有規範全部外聘但是深生愛就沒有規範全部外聘如果我們要提升我們的性平調查品質我會建議所有的調查人員都應該經過我們調查的一個培訓的"},{"start":4536.495,"end":4561.829,"text":"研習因為我們雖然是師生外聘有些外聘的調查人員他是沒有受訓過的然後生生外聘他只要他是內聘然後也是一樣在專業上他的規範只有三個人只有一個那的確在沒有受過培訓的調查人員對於事件的認定的確會產生一些不一樣的結果出來"},{"start":4565.251,"end":4568.972,"text":"如果我們要提升調查的品質我會建議已經實施二十幾年了我們可以把調查人員規範都應該要受過訓練的調查人員來做釐清至於保密的部分我這兩年真的也調查了好幾件洩密的案子"},{"start":4586.898,"end":4601.158,"text":"但是追蹤到最後洩密的來源都是來自於檢舉人自己說的行為人為了自保自己說的被害人因為很委屈自己說的那在校園裡呢"},{"start":4602.359,"end":4616.25,"text":"如果檢舉人 行為人 被害人他真的會求自保他一定會去說出他的委屈然後其他不是相關處理事件的老師們或家長們或學生們"},{"start":4618.351,"end":4642.957,"text":"的確是會傳播但是我們在法令裡面我們都規範了所有的承辦人員 調查人員以及相關委員會的委員我們絕對是會謹守保密原則的這也是讓我們議會的人了解一下現場至於課堂上的不但原因的確有改變"},{"start":4644.077,"end":4662.623,"text":"它的改變就是我們屬於課堂上敵意環境的性騷擾過去的確孩子家長提出但是不敢受訪但是這幾年家長提出 孩子提出會接受反彈的比例已經增高了"},{"start":4663.183,"end":4687.958,"text":"那会比较在调查当中会比较困扰的也是希望我们法规有所调整的就是我们谈的是性别偏见还有性别歧视但是要把它转化成课堂上含有性意味的环色笑话的确很多孩子会觉得这个老师的上课是有趣的"},{"start":4688.698,"end":4701.949,"text":"那也就是提出的都是比較少數的那的確這個是需要再努力的所以呢因為我前面這邊的一個陳述我就會強調我們還是落實所有老師的研習謝謝"},{"start":4706.08,"end":4719.553,"text":"謝謝新北市政府教育局聘任督學魏素香的發言再來我們請性別平等學生倡議連線的召集人戴靖茹召集人下一位是張雅琳委員請準備"},{"start":4722.079,"end":4736.395,"text":"各位委員關心性平議題的先進們大家好我是性別平等學生創意連線的代表戴靖茹目前是交大的學生也是學校的性平委員感謝今天有這個機會針對本次性平法的實務困境分享我們的觀點"},{"start":4737.276,"end":4765.425,"text":"今天的发言将依照今天公听会的三个讨论提纲提出建议第一个关于校园性别事件调查小组的专业性跟公信力部分我们首先想要指出一个前提是行政调查跟司法判决本来就有很多不同证据门槛跟法律效果行政调查它可能是处分或者教育性的措施可是司法判决可能涉及的是刑责成立与否不一致的状况下可能并不代表"},{"start":4766.065,"end":4788.11,"text":"一個制度失靈當然這不代表說結果不同我們就可以不重視的是為什麼行政調查他的專業品質或者是性別意識沒辦法說服整個社會我們覺得問題可能在於調查小組的成員他性別專業沒有被實質審查就是說目前法規多以資格條件或者是形式比例為主像是女性的"},{"start":4788.65,"end":4804.679,"text":"成員比例是否完成培訓等那這不全然等於說具備處理權勢關係創傷反應或者是性別偏見的能力那這樣的消極資格過於抽象反而難以適用像我們現行說不得有未尊重他人性別認同或性相知情識"},{"start":4805.639,"end":4809.122,"text":"这实务上要么就是过于宽松要么就是过于道德审判"},{"start":4835.899,"end":4855.953,"text":"有具体事实主任其欠缺性别平等意识或曾违反调查保密义务不当干预调查程序的不等不得担任另外建议我们建立调查报告的说理指引要求调查结论必须明确回应权势关系性别结构及不对等处境而不是"},{"start":4856.993,"end":4884.614,"text":"僅停留在證據不足這樣其實可以用於提高調查的可信度用於說服整個社會那第二個提綱關於性別事件調查期間的保密義務其實現在保密義務我們都覺得有點模糊像是委員跟相關人常遊走在灰色地帶然後就造成兩個極端第一個是有人任意對外談論案情造成當事人的二度傷害那另一方面也有人可能會用保密當封口令"},{"start":4885.054,"end":4910.954,"text":"压制整个当事人跟社会的讨论所以我们希望保命义务它的范围可能可以更具体的是以可辨识当事人身份之资讯为核心要求整个案件事实经过都一律保命这其实在现行上不可行因为可能当事人他会某种想要在社群或者想要在日常生活中伸张那如果案件事实经过全部都保命的话其实也不利于整个公共监督"},{"start":4911.374,"end":4923.767,"text":"所以那第二个是我们觉得要区分不同角色的保密义务的强度但是调查委员行政当事人监聚人等等的身份不应该承担相同责任跟程度的保密"},{"start":4924.781,"end":4943.762,"text":"那關於第三個提供關於課程教材跟性別歧視的制度雖然現在我們已經有明文要求教材跟教學要符合性別平衡規則但其實沒有很明確的處置機制跟法則這導致會有個現象是只要沒有一個特定被害人能被指認他就可能"},{"start":4944.443,"end":4970.972,"text":"道德上有罪可是行政上沒辦法處置所以從金城國中的案件我們可以看出即使教學內容它已經涉及整個系統性的性別歧視污名在之甚至是錯誤知識的傳播也只能道德譴責然後行政無能的感覺所以我們其實很希望說通案性的教學可以成立性別事件讓教師在教學教材或者評分中傳達嚴重性別偏見跟污名的行為"},{"start":4971.852,"end":4984.337,"text":"像我們說那個京城國中考卷出現綠茶標或者愛滋污名這樣的用語也應該也得成立性別事件並交付處理調查那第二個是我們希望可以納入權勢關係作為懲處加重的衡量"},{"start":4987.958,"end":5006.573,"text":"像老師利用出題跟評分的威權地位這樣學生會在權力不對等的狀況下被迫迎合或者是忍受這樣的冒犯所以法律應該要明定說如果教師利用教學權勢施加性別壓迫應該作為加重處分的"},{"start":5007.293,"end":5023.206,"text":"依據那必要的時候也要送到教評會作為解聘或相關的懲處建議那當然也有剛才前面幾個委員說我們是要有個支持系統也可以透過輔導或者是等等的方式最後再送到教評會這樣遞進的方式來透過不同程序層次來處理"},{"start":5024.207,"end":5051.062,"text":"那我自己是出生在有性别平等教育的这个教学年间所以我们其实都很期待说性别平等教育法修法可以真正回应学生所处的现实权利关系那谢谢各位委员跟先进的聆听谢谢性别平等学生倡议连线的召集人戴静茹的发言那再来我们请张亚玲委员发言下一位是陈培余委员请准备"},{"start":5057.236,"end":5076.127,"text":"主席好那各位與會的老師專家學者還有我們的學生大家早安那我想性平教育法在2014年施行到現在已經21年了那這20年來我們的確看到性別的教育上面的確有一些改變不過也有一些難以迴避的現實所以我想今天我們就針對這兩年"},{"start":5078.808,"end":5103.462,"text":"發起了許多的爭議不管是台大事件或是金門的這個學校的事件我想我們都看到三個共同的問題就是第一個調查不專業第二個保命規範很混亂第三個教材與教學缺乏機制那它其實並不是個案而是一個制度性結構性的漏洞所以我想我今天就會從這三個面向來跟大家做個討論這樣第一個就是調查的程序"},{"start":5104.222,"end":5126.68,"text":"雖然說現在我們是有要求這個相關的調查小組的性別比例啦外聘的委員 性別議事等等等等那我們也有專業的人才庫但是我們還是可以看見像今年台大這個案件學校調查不成立可是監察院或法院卻認定成立也看到調查標準不一致成員專業度不足甚至還有利益衝突的狀況"},{"start":5127.581,"end":5145.114,"text":"其實這代表說我們現在調查制度上面程序上應該是沒有什麼太大的問題但是內部的機制還有一些要做調整的地方首先我認為就是說我們應該要去強化我們現在調查專業人員的性平意識包含我們培訓他的時數課程等等都要有一個一致性"},{"start":5145.954,"end":5162.716,"text":"那再來第二個面向也要來跟大家討論就是保密義務我想這也是今年蠻重要的一個重點就是在《性平法》的第23條雖然規範有保密可是事實上有人在班級群組上討論案情有人在網路上面發文"},{"start":5163.317,"end":5176.857,"text":"有人根本不知道自己違反保密我想這都是大家有清清楚楚看到的一些現象甚至有些情況是學校以保密為名反而讓學生失去保護所以這就表示我們現在的保密界限是不清楚的"},{"start":5178.226,"end":5203.304,"text":"那像我就特別來舉例我們今年台大的一個性平校園的性平事件那當時的教育部前政務次長葉秉成在群組上社群帳號上面疑似洩漏受害學生的敏感資訊引發了相當大的一個爭議可是這個事件之所以引發社會關注因為它觸及一個很重要的議題第一個什麼是性平調查中的保密義務適用範圍"},{"start":5205.906,"end":5220.799,"text":"有聲音來批評我們教育部性評會的解釋過於狹隘只認定行為是否適用於性評事件而忽略了教育人員在任何的性評案件中都負有一定的保密責任的重要性同時也有教師團體批評這很雙標"},{"start":5224.182,"end":5253.201,"text":"一線教育人員要被要求要有保密的義務可是卻不一體適用於高階的官員同時我自己也有遇過一個案例就是受害人發現加害人在案件處理期間人持續接觸學生的時候他想要出來揭露真相訴諸媒體可是礙於現行對保密義務的理解跟壓力他無法公開加害人的身分所以也讓他當事人陷入了兩難也進一步暴露出我們現行的規範中"},{"start":5254.824,"end":5258.01,"text":"保護當事人與資訊透明之間的一個模糊地帶"},{"start":5260.402,"end":5284.307,"text":"所以我的建議有三個對於學校跟主管機關我們的保密義務應該是一致一律的強制性不能以任何理由迴避對於當事人跟檢舉人除了基本保密義務之外應該要保障他陳情跟求助的權利避免因為求助而受到處置跟限制對於我們師長行政同仁及第三人應該要明確禁止散步"},{"start":5284.887,"end":5309.819,"text":"任何案情或足以辨識當事人身份的資訊所以我想教育部應該要說明不同角色在不同階段的保密責任跟邊界並建立違反保密義務的責任機制與處分標準讓所有人對於界限是一目了然的不再因為解釋不一而傷害當事人或者是阻礙案情的公正調查"},{"start":5310.559,"end":5339.301,"text":"第三個部分是我們的課程跟教材性平法第18到20條其實寫得已經很清楚了教材要符合性別平等原則教師要具備性平意識避免性別偏見但是一旦違反的時候這些規定沒有任何的處理機制所以也就造成我們現在看到京城國中的健康科考題事件名傳大學的問卷事件即使內容不當"},{"start":5340.141,"end":5354.04,"text":"卻常常無法處理因為沒有特定被害人時現行的性平事件的機制是無法啟動的所以我也認為教育部必須來回應像這樣子的狀況我們應該要來如何的處置"},{"start":5355.799,"end":5376.007,"text":"所以今天也非常高興看到我們許多專家學者學生代表也都一同出席了那也希望透過大家的討論及私廣益之下我們可以做得更完整更能夠保護我們的孩子也保護我們的學生跟老師在所有的程序正義上可以兼顧下讓所有人都可以在這個校園裡面安心的求學 安心的教學謝謝"},{"start":5379.096,"end":5390.342,"text":"好 謝謝張雅玲委員百忙中特別來發言關心性平法性平教育法遇到的實務困境那我們下一位請陳培宇委員發言然後蕭嘉儀理事長請準備"},{"start":5395.25,"end":5419.701,"text":"好 大家早安 谢谢今天与会所有学者专家和青年朋友非常开心从去年范玉委员已经先召开一次性别评的教育公听会那今天在陈秀宝召委的主持下又开了这个公听会那我想从几个案例来分享几个我关心的议题那虽然我现在不在教文 可是我想相关的议题还是非常重要所以我还是想要回来发言第一个我想要跟大家谈金门县京城国中的考题"},{"start":5419.861,"end":5436.626,"text":"因為我現在是不分區那我服務的區域就是金門跟馬祖所以當時我們看到這個新聞事件呢我們辦公室第一時間跟國教署聯絡然後到目前為止我們都持續追蹤這中間有非常多來來往往那我們非常開心看到目前該校已經於上個月召開教評會議將其解聘"},{"start":5438.607,"end":5461.233,"text":"而且四年內不得擔任教育人員但是我要說這個問題其實彰顯了教育現場有很大的一個困境就是現存的審題機制其實應該出現了破口也出現了漏洞可是到底是因為審題人員的性別意識不足還是審題機制變成只是一個機制性的過水我們都不希望未來在任何學校任何考題看到這樣的狀況"},{"start":5462.313,"end":5490.075,"text":"因此我們未來還可以怎麼做我想我們等一下可以來討論第二個是關於黃金葛之下毒案這個案子裡面所有的加害人或者是當事人或者是導師大家都覺得自己是非常冤枉的那這個案件細節我就不再多說可是在相關的判決裡面提到因為導師多次忽視當作沒事最後女同學只能私利救濟在判決書裡面有提到所以我們可以看到在這個案件當中"},{"start":5490.956,"end":5510.652,"text":"女童被性騷男童被報復下毒而導致因為長期漠視而被開罰如果大家都不好受的情況下到底這件事情如果可以及早發現及早處理是不是就可以抑止這場悲劇不要發生所以我們後續也可以來看到底在現場還可以怎麼預防第三個是關於最近名傳大學商務英文的課程"},{"start":5511.192,"end":5528.775,"text":"先不要講這個老師大學授課老師其實在性別平等教育法裡面並沒有規範大學授課老師必須要受到性平相關訓練的課程這個體制面的問題可是我要說這樣的一個為人師表光是在課堂上發出這種問卷還公開學生的填答"},{"start":5529.275,"end":5547.417,"text":"不配合還要言語學生光是這樣的行為就讓整個課程變成冒犯他人性隱私的場域而涉案的老師甚至還喊冤說是問卷設計不周只是想多一點互動可是我要說這個人他不是一個老師而已他光是身為一個人的性平之能都大大的有問題"},{"start":5548.658,"end":5565.931,"text":"以上從這些問題來看我們大概可以整理出幾個面向第一個性別平等教育的成效有限雖然大家覺得推廣已經行之有年學生在作業考試的問答上好像也都表現得不錯可是落實到生活裡面看起來其實出現了很大的gap第二個"},{"start":5566.491,"end":5589.933,"text":"教師本身性平意識的不足很多老師認為知識歸師是實踐歸實踐可是如何把知識化為實踐可能連很多老師個人在過去的學習經驗當中也是感到非常的陌生第三個是整體社會的性平意識也很不足所以我想這也是未來我們可以努力的還有就是目前校園性別事件調查助理的公平跟公正性令人懷疑"},{"start":5590.513,"end":5607.751,"text":"因為性平之能的不足還有失失相互的風險因此讓很多人擔心校園性別事件調查處理的公正跟公平性所以我想既然是公聽會身為立法委員我們還是想要對行政機關積極的提出一些建議也希望各位學者可以一起討論跟參考第一個"},{"start":5609.016,"end":5631.053,"text":"校園內性別平等教育的積極在落實我剛已經說了推行了這麼多年很多人認為孩子們的相關素養已經夠了那目前我們看到教育部還有推出中學全面性教育教學指引手冊還甚至受到一些批評跟指教但我想相關的批評跟指教都是希望事情可以做得更好可是我們如何在教育部還有"},{"start":5631.933,"end":5656.599,"text":"產官學 民間專家學者的討論之下我們可以積極的提供更多相關教材跟教學資源讓性別平等教育的教學可以更加深入學生的心中和落實在日常的實踐當中第二個 學校教職人員的性平之能可以再深化目前我們看到在失陪人員培訓的過程當中性平課程只是選修我再次強調只是選修"},{"start":5657.079,"end":5685.983,"text":"它不是必修當然可能要涉及修師培法都還可以再討論可是學校裡面的教職員包含校長 主任 老師每一天都在教學現場的第一線跟孩子們在一起而中央跟地方的教育主管機關本來就應該提供給這些現場第一線的人員更多教學資源以充實他們的職能我們知道都有辦相關的研習可是如果研習的效果看起來是有限而且甚至是不足的是不是教育部跟國教署要研議其他"},{"start":5686.463,"end":5697.756,"text":"更有效率的方法來增進學校教職員的性平之能第三個 整體社會來看社會的性平教育一樣的重要那這個我就要回到終身教育史裡面我們一直在談的"},{"start":5699.113,"end":5721.179,"text":"家庭教育跟終身教育絕對是責無旁貸如何把社會的力量一起拉進來透過公部門的資源跟政策的預算引導讓社會的性平教育同樣積極往前最後我要提的是在修性別三法的時候我辦公室在三年前就已經提出我們希望有所謂的第三方調查機構目前我們看到光是從校園的校士會議裡面"},{"start":5722.219,"end":5738.141,"text":"我們看見的困境是社會大眾或者是家長社群對於校事處理的不信任可是同樣的我們也看到老師的社群對於家長濫訴議題的不滿一邊是不信任一邊是不滿短期之內我們看到教育部已經要修訂校事會議的規定"},{"start":5739.402,"end":5757.28,"text":"現在來看或許可能是一個解方可是如果要治標又治本的情況我還是要再度提出有沒有機會成立一個第三方調查機構協助處理相關事件的調查跟處遇一方面提供一個更公平公正程序更透明更具專業的調查團隊"},{"start":5759.583,"end":5775.522,"text":"讓外界難以對其決定上下其手確保調查處理的公正性解決社會大眾跟家長的擔憂另外一方面讓調查程序在校外進行讓學校回歸單純的教學空間學校校長 主任 老師也可以免於事件的紛擾"},{"start":5776.283,"end":5798.639,"text":"更重要的是專責第三方機構有可能還可以協助轉介其他專業的資源例如說法律或是心理衛生讓當事人不要面對這麼大的程序壓力說了這麼多我們就是希望所有在法規範以及政府資源能夠做的事情我們還可以更加精進當然立法委員持續監督也非常重要以上是我今天的發言 謝謝"},{"start":5800.694,"end":5816.382,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇委員百忙中特別來關心性別平衡教育法遇到的實務困境再來我們請宜蘭教師職業工會理事長蕭嘉怡發言下一位謝敬惠副主任請準備"},{"start":5817.943,"end":5846.104,"text":"主席及在座的學者專家大家好我是宜蘭縣教師職業工會理事長肖佳儀感謝委員會這邊的邀請今天我就對三個提綱討論來分享教育現場的一個看見我本身也是縣市的高階調查人員也是國教輔導團的領導人的資格在教學的實務上面其實我們可以看到在調查的部分"},{"start":5846.644,"end":5861.915,"text":"目前司法系統跟行政調查它有一個並存的一個多樣性在行政調查的部分其實在證據力還有調查的行使能力上在跟司法的部分是不太一樣的"},{"start":5862.395,"end":5881.532,"text":"那為什麼會有這樣的不一樣其實還是回歸到行政調查必須回到校園裡面的一個情境脈絡還有學校的課程以及學生還有老師之間的一個人際之間的一個交互的一個網絡那所以在校園的課程以及這個認定上面其實"},{"start":5882.513,"end":5905.735,"text":"行政跟司法系統它是不相違背也不相抵觸那應該是有一個並存的一個多樣性那重點還是回歸到這個調查人員的一個訓練那調查人員的訓練其實生對生的部分是以教育為目的為措施所以我們的重點還是放在學生的一個輔導跟他的一個支持系統上面"},{"start":5906.235,"end":5927.788,"text":"但是如果說對於私生案件的部分因為會涉及考核及工作權那這部分其實我是建議回歸到中央可以有一個系統的培訓甚至在這個中央的培訓過程當中也可以做成一個案例的資料庫讓這個全國的一個調查可以有一個一致性的一個脈絡那所以這邊也"},{"start":5930.309,"end":5944.398,"text":"到縣市的部分也希望縣市其實應該要有一個熟知性品專員的提供一個相關的一個協助因為在縣市的性品的部分其實承辦人也不一定會具有相關的性品的一個"},{"start":5945.979,"end":5964.793,"text":"認知所以在縣市的部分其實也應該要有一個相對應的一個專業的人員來提供縣市學校端的一個協助那因此在這個性品的一個調查的人員當中我們還是希望就是可以回歸到除了有"},{"start":5965.333,"end":5991.765,"text":"資深案的部分可以由中央統一的來培訓之外另外要落實定期維護專業人才資料庫的一個資訊目前這個資料庫各縣市做法不一但是有可能這個人才庫它只是不斷的累積但是它並沒有一個去檢核的一個機制所以這部分也是希望可以在專業人才資料庫上面做一個比較實務上面的一個維護"},{"start":5992.845,"end":6010.156,"text":"那另外呢就是在調查人員部分上因為的確在教學的實務面上會有一些調查人員他的確是性品的認知比較不足那這部分呢就是希望在縣市的一個審核的機制如果說有審核機制的話那應該可以將這些專業具有調查人員"},{"start":6013.818,"end":6030.374,"text":"但是他不具備性平之能的人將他移除所以這部分也可以落實到我們在行政調查上可以更受到更多的信任跟一個肯定在第二個部分就是在保密的部分目前其實在"},{"start":6031.695,"end":6058.488,"text":"雖然就是有很多關於保密上面的一些討論那不過其實在我們性騷擾防治法的第10條也有相關被害人資訊揭露的一些限制那另外也不能用媒體跟其他的方法公開被害人的資訊等等之類其實相關的法規還有個人資料處理法也都有相關的一個規定那為什麼現場還會有這些保密的一個破口"},{"start":6059.148,"end":6085.641,"text":"那我覺得在現行上還是要回歸到主管單位的一個處理的決心因為相關的法規其實都不會少但是要引用適合的法規去處理這些保密的一個破口那這部分就是有賴於這個主管單位可以在執行這個保密的部分的一個處理所以這部分也是希望可以主管單位可以做一個妥善的一個處置"},{"start":6086.981,"end":6104.733,"text":"另外還有就是在教育體系上面的上寬下延的一個情況全教總在2025年的金鋁獎的排名也有提到就是學倫的性平雙標的部分這部分其實我覺得在高中以下的學校其實制度相對的是嚴謹"},{"start":6105.794,"end":6132.029,"text":"那不過在高校或者是在中央部會的部分就是該處理的人有沒有好好的用力去處理而不是就是在增添許多的法規來去做一個說明所以這部分還是希望在中央主管單位或者地方主管單位在面對有行政管理權或學術影響力的人應該要好好的來去處理才是根本"},{"start":6132.749,"end":6156.305,"text":"那第三個部分就是到課程那這課程其實回歸到審題的機制那審題的機制裡面有相關的嚴謹的規範所以其實也不是不能夠處理老師在這個試題上面的一些就是不良出題的一個部分那另外就是老師在缺乏性平意識的部分還是希望就是以教育的方式讓老師可以與時俱進"},{"start":6159.207,"end":6185.768,"text":"在总结性平教育推展20年其实我们有看见教育现场的一个进步但是也希望可以支持教师就是破除在教性别教育的一个污名因为很多老师还是因为害怕误解或者投诉而不敢教这部分是我们所担心的另外也希望可以提供一个教材跟制度化的支持让老师可以安心的教学以上谢谢大家的聆听谢谢"},{"start":6187.13,"end":6207.18,"text":"好 謝謝宜蘭教師職業工會理事長蕭嘉儀的發言那我們下一位是謝敬惠她是全國高校教產工會法規團約部的副主任那之後是楊雲珍請準備在楊雲珍發言完後我們會休息五分鐘"},{"start":6214.54,"end":6238.171,"text":"主席各位長官各位與會專家學者大家好今天要跟大家分享從教育現場在性平教育課堂實踐還有性別事件校園防治我們從教育現場出發我帶來一些教育現場實務上的觀察如何建構具有信任還有正義的性平制度我代表全宗教我是謝敬惠各位大家好"},{"start":6239.031,"end":6252.49,"text":"教学现场的困境我们面临到的是教师教学自主的受限太多的法规让教师在教学的时候变成我这个可以讲吗我这个讲了之后老师们"},{"start":6253.717,"end":6268.759,"text":"的反應或者學生們的反應容易出現寒蟬效應那在調查公信力還有委員專業度的地方呢只要一進入調查系統可能就出現調查曠日廢食的情況那最後的結果如果是無稿"},{"start":6269.6,"end":6288.511,"text":"如何來補償或者撫慰被誣告老師的一些權利的損失那至於保密義務範圍和對象有時候剛剛老師有提到有一些與會專家學者提到因為當事人委屈跟其他人提出可能調查事件的一些相關線索那可能"},{"start":6288.951,"end":6303.929,"text":"他自己就已經造成自己權益的受損所以學校在接受性平事件調查之後逐漸從教育場域變成一個行政場域行政過度的負擔這都是教學實務端面臨的現象所以"},{"start":6304.269,"end":6333.09,"text":"今天從三個面向教學自主調查機制還有保密與程序的面向來提出一些具體的觀察還有建議首先第一個回應剛才提到的教學自主受限寒蟬效應的蔓延在教材考題因為學生可能主觀的不舒服那可能就成案被視為性騷擾老師不敢碰觸其他和教育意義有關的議題比如說性別暴力身體自主但這些是在教育的過程當中不可或缺的"},{"start":6333.47,"end":6360.434,"text":"如何在教育現場教導學生去保護自己的身體然後去防止性別暴力這是我們必須要做的但教學脈絡在性平事件當中有時候容易被誤解那被誤判的風險也會偏高所以我們有具體的建議第一個建立教學目的豁免機制可以明確區分惡意騷擾還有基於教育目的的必要學術討論這是可以豁免的"},{"start":6360.774,"end":6384.76,"text":"我們希望能夠保障老師在合一的教學情境之下可以探討重要的議題避免淪為誣告的對象我們也希望可以避免師生可能因為某些主觀言辭的一些解讀不同而淪為一些糾紛或者是老師為了避免變成性平世界的主角迴避討論性別的議題我想教育的目的"},{"start":6385.64,"end":6406.23,"text":"就是要教育學生如何保護自己而這不是我們所樂見的那第二個建議我們希望在調查委員會的部分可以有專業的參與與審查剛才很多專家學者分享到必須要有回流訓練的機制承辦人也必須要有培訓的機制建立承辦人員的性別意識"},{"start":6407.15,"end":6436.369,"text":"那建立在调查的时候涉及教学内容的时候我们希望能够在调查委员会当中纳入学科教师或者是教师的工会代表教学实务现场非常的重要如果一个只有具备性平意识的调查委员但不具有教学现场实务经验的调查委员是否能够专业精准的判断出这个是否符合性别平等的应该说成案"},{"start":6436.869,"end":6453.036,"text":"這是非常重要的那調查人力的專業化還有專職化也可以避免非專業人員用主觀的判斷來處理教學專業的問題最後一個我們提到的是有關於救濟機制的缺乏如果今天教師被誣告"},{"start":6453.996,"end":6482.694,"text":"然后损害了他对教学的一个热忱还有教学的品质损害了教师的被信任感那怎么样去弥补教师的部分那第二个有关于调查过程当中的旷日废食那诚如今天提刚所提到的结果有时候难以令人信服那在调查的时间过程当中老师呢停课名誉受损然后薪资呢也被停发结果最后啊行政处理和监察院法院的结论又不一致"},{"start":6483.735,"end":6511.342,"text":"原因可能就是調查委員在調查過程當中因為缺乏校園的實務經驗然後也並沒有教育的實際經驗那如何來補償教師那我們建議調查人員必須具有校園實務經驗要學熟悉校園日常還有學生互動的一個邏輯那當然要具備性平調查的專業才能夠提高調查的品質專業的呈現調查的結果那我們第四個建議是要設立惡意檢舉的防治機制"},{"start":6512.182,"end":6538.747,"text":"如果调查是虚构诬告那应该有惩处我们避免制度沦为打击教师的工具我们必须捍卫保障教师基本的名誉还有职业的安全那最后一个是保密的机制资讯的外流舆论压力的扩大在调查案件尚未完毕的时候可能在网络社群的流传所以如何落实保密的机制让调查程序不要变成社会惩罚的过程这也是很重要的"},{"start":6539.167,"end":6556.479,"text":"那最後建議呢要強化保密義務還有對象要明確化在案件未定論前不得對外發布任何的細節也希望能夠避免因為討論案情間接造成傷害所以保密範圍應該如何確定這也是必須建立的那最後分級處理機制明確知悉的定義"},{"start":6557.219,"end":6585.032,"text":"建立輔導優先調查被查的分歧機制教育現場我們的目的是教育而不是辦理案件所以輕微出犯的同儕事件是否能有導師輔導優先處理知悉是否有明確的資料可以來指示不要因為傳聞通報而造成行政資源的腐爛所以結論我們要保護學生也要保護老師教育需要信任老師的尊嚴和學生的受教權一樣重要以上報告謝謝"},{"start":6587.554,"end":6609.369,"text":"好 謝謝全國高校教產工會法規團約部副主任謝敬惠的發言那我們下一位是楊雲珍他是台南市兒童及少年代表協會理事長在楊雲珍發言完之後我們會休息五分鐘五分鐘之後回來是張文昌常務理事"},{"start":6610.458,"end":6632.839,"text":"好的 各位委員及關心性別議題的先進們大家好我是台南市兒童及少年代表協會理事長楊雲珍那我們協會其實是由曾任及現任的兒少代表所組成那我們長期投入兒少賠利及兒少權益的倡議那我現在同時也是教育部第11屆的性別平等委員那非常感謝今天有機會與大家來分享針對性平法在教學"},{"start":6633.84,"end":6656.209,"text":"教學與事件調查中我們觀察到的困境那第一點我們觀察到的其實有關於在校園中跟社會跟家庭的權利結構對於性別平等教育落實的困境對於學生及兒校們來說就是無論在校園或是家庭中在性別議題的談論仍然存在著許多的困境當我們在談論教師性別平等意識跟討論性別主流化在各領域綱要事切融入時"},{"start":6656.949,"end":6685.5,"text":"我們長期遇到的困境就是所謂存在於校園現場對於性別平等意識的不了解那其實在幼齡兒校再到各教育階段的性別平等教育我們知道說就是教育部一直有在提供相關的教材但是在家庭跟校園中仍然存在非常多性別意識不同性別意識不足的言論或是教材難以對應兒校及學生生命經驗的現況那其實我們也感受到培訓跟現場的落差在教育部內部針對的內部針對就是不管是校長或者是教師的培訓"},{"start":6686.62,"end":6712.165,"text":"其實大部分是針對性別事件的處理或是性別人才的培訓但很多理論跟實際現場的教學其實有存在非常大的斷裂的問題它無法對應到學生目前真的在校園中遇到的困境跟權力不對等的差異那其實我們希望說就是在學習性別平等的學生跟想要教學的教師可以在教育部的制度建立以及法規的規範之中可以不要被漏接它其實在一個全市"},{"start":6713.225,"end":6738.696,"text":"詮釋不對等的情況下會造成學生其實很多時候不敢去談論性別議題那其實上述的權利結構也會影響到我們第二點想要跟大家分享的性別事件調查制度的不友善它包含了調查以及申訴管道的部分那在性別事件調查流程中其實前面幾位專家學者有提到有關於性別意識不足的部分那其實我們也觀察到學生在事件調查中會因為監護人的介入而影響到事件的陳述"},{"start":6739.196,"end":6760.311,"text":"就是無論是在監護人是否在性別事件中參與調查或者是說現場人長期遭遇到家庭的壓力而影響到案件當事人學生的權益這件事情在我們以兒少自家利益作為論述時其實我們認為這樣缺乏了兒少的主體性那在事件調查中如果有監護人的角色進入他是否友善學生及兒少的權利"},{"start":6761.092,"end":6783.262,"text":"那我們其實有接獲到其實有時候兒少會跟我反映事件的記錄需要監護人簽名等現狀那他其實就缺乏了保護兒少隱私的問題那他是否也包含到說可能會影響到他們要在家庭中去揭露性傾向的困境那其實這件事情在保密義務的部分我們也覺得說應該要去調查說有關應該要去保障說兒少是否有"},{"start":6784.142,"end":6802.95,"text":"兒少在兒少隱私這一塊要怎麼樣去做保障那其實有兒少與我們反映過有關於校園事件調查的部分校內的委員跟案件當事人的權利關係他可能是導師或者是專任老師的問題那當事人已經明確在事件調查中提說不願意讓校內其他老師知道個人的案件但最後卻因為校方"},{"start":6803.61,"end":6827.188,"text":"說人力不足而讓導師或專任老師仍然擔任校內的調查委員那這樣對於學生來說他是否有做到保密義務的這件事情我們認為說以上的案例都可以去規範說在保密義務跟規範的部分非常模糊的情況下我們要怎麼樣去分級跟分層的去針對保密義務去做規範然後可以讓兒少跟學生在體制內不會被漏接"},{"start":6828.288,"end":6851.922,"text":"雖然說現在許多議題在社會變遷下是可以被談論的但在討論到性別事件的時候很多時候還是會有我想為你好或者是要保護自己而有許多刻板印象的框架存在或者是說它長期會影響到兒少跟學生在敢不敢提出申訴或者是檢舉跟校園事件的問題其實很多時候我們也遇到學生來跟我反映說會遇到校園中有很多"},{"start":6852.962,"end":6871.097,"text":"會要求學生撤案或者是威脅性別事件他調查的流程非常的隆長難以成案的問題而讓學生在校園中很難去在校園事件的這件事情可以被截阻那再來就是我們最後希望根據耳哨被聆聽跟表意權這件事情我們認同在校園性別事件"},{"start":6871.778,"end":6890.847,"text":"调查小组跟校园性别平等教育委员会应该要纳入并落实学生的参与主要是落实的层面应该要从儿校级学生的角度它其实都有助于整体在校园事件的调查视角的切入但同时也需要建立相关协助儿校级学生参与的保密及身心协助的配套措施以上谢谢"},{"start":6893.189,"end":6919.721,"text":"謝謝台南市兒童及少年代表協會的理事長楊雲珍的發言我們現在休息五分鐘跟大家講一下這邊的洗手間在主席台後面但是可能會不夠用大家也可以上電梯或者是走旁邊的樓梯到二樓三樓都有洗手間後面那邊有茶水"},{"start":7229.457,"end":7240.719,"text":"好 我們繼續開會現在請國教行動聯盟的常務理事張文昌發言下一位是世新大學的羅蔡英教授請準備"},{"start":7243.09,"end":7265.876,"text":"主席范雲委員在座各位教育線經營大家早安大家好我是國家行動聯盟常務理事張文昌我本身是退休老師有豐富的教師組織的經驗也有家長會的經驗現在是學校的家長會長我有在性平部分也有豐富的經驗大概過去七年大概調查了四十幾個案件"},{"start":7267.077,"end":7281.054,"text":"我要談三個部分第一個是通報成案的關係第二個調查品質的問題第三個為何性別案件越來越多我們現在看通報跟成案的關係我們來看一下在113年的教育部統計裡面的通報是性騷擾"},{"start":7282.455,"end":7299.538,"text":"性霸凌、性侵害的狀況是這樣總共通報是24,074件調查屬實是4,030件比例大概是16.74大概是六分之一的比例所以我們可以看到大概六分之一調查屬實大概是六分之五不成案或是調查不屬實"},{"start":7300.599,"end":7321.898,"text":"我們來看一下不成案的理由大概就是這些然後我們可以看到說目前在校園裡面其實啟動性平調查的門檻感覺上是太低就像剛才幾位先進所講的在學校裡面造成學校還有行政還有老師非常大的一個壓力跟工作量這個部分是有必要去重視的以現況來講"},{"start":7324.08,"end":7351.643,"text":"我們看到不成案裡還有非屬情節重大比例其實還蠻高的這個部分是我們需要去關注的原因在哪裡包含了第一個是強制通報的義務只要疑似只要知悉我不用查證而且甚至法規裡面規定不可以查證你任何人只要我聽到風吹草動我就要通報這個就是造成通報率提高的一個原因通報率提高的原因"},{"start":7351.843,"end":7369.809,"text":"那通告的原因然後如果你通報之後你又沒有去就是設一個調查什麼狀況才要調查的一個門檻的時候那有很多比較算是一個情況可能我講錯一句話可是笑一下我只是要一個道歉而已可是要拖兩二到四個月過程中"},{"start":7370.689,"end":7398.209,"text":"老師都不能來問說你發生什麼事了都不能問因為這個有可能我就涉及到任何人不能吝嗇調查機制那我就被罰1萬到15萬那這個部分來講以學校是一個教育的場域教育的場域來看這樣的做法其實是反而讓學校沒有辦法去做教育那很多涉及到什麼性別刻板印象性別的一些偏見這個其實是主要應該是要用教育的手段去達到目的去讓孩子去了解"},{"start":7398.949,"end":7427.642,"text":"了解說我到底講錯什麼話為什麼他會不舒服有時候他搞不清楚他就是等著被罰那由於在同一個班級那我到底要不要讓這兩個學生分開有時候也不知道那個很就是會處一個很以學校老師來講很麻煩的一個狀況那我們本來初中是要保護當事人隱私可是現在變成反而失去了即時教育輔導跟管教的一個機會調查時間長達二到四個月比較嚴重案件大概半年以上"},{"start":7428.522,"end":7453.078,"text":"那這個都是我們要去了解的那我們不希望是性平變成一個爛樹那殺雞也用流浪我們希望可以做適當的把關分流所以事實上剛才前面好像是陳培宇委員也有提到這個第三方的一個處理的機制事實上是有必要去了解一下說什麼狀況下是由第三方來處理然後也一樣適當的去授權什麼狀況下就是"},{"start":7455.299,"end":7485.179,"text":"有在做一些必要的授權讓學校在一些必要的狀況下可以去進行必要的一個輔導還有該懲處就趕快懲處了不用要拖那麼久那第二個來看調查品質的問題調查品質教育人員我們知道他在師資培育裡面基本上是非常缺乏法律的專業那調查目前調查人才庫九成以上是因為職務我是學務主任我是政府組長我就去授訓我取得過了幾年一兩年我下來以後我就不想做了"},{"start":7485.579,"end":7506.341,"text":"因為這個太麻煩了花那麼多時間耗費這麼多的資源最後結果可能是而且這不是我的專業所以就會產生這樣我們授訓三個階段加起來大概七八十個小時其實也是不太夠的學校普遍上是缺乏這樣的一個法律專業的一個資能多數的人才也有發生說"},{"start":7507.422,"end":7536.528,"text":"調查經驗其實很稀少我受訓完了我取得資格我可能好幾年都沒有去調查可是我一樣在人才庫裡面或是很少撰寫調查報告然後再來目前現況為什麼會產生行政調查跟司法調查之間的落差是因為行政調查我沒有辦法查扣物證所以在很多案子當我們發現我們要去調查的時候訪談他他說我手機裡面的東西都已經沒有了反正我們要的證物他"},{"start":7537.348,"end":7553.178,"text":"對他不利他一律不提供我們也拿他沒辦法然後甚至有案子有三個女學生彼此講好說我們去對老師提告老師性騷擾也有這樣的案子所以我們沒辦法預防串供跟滅症我們教育人員輔導專長不是調查專業"},{"start":7555.439,"end":7566.937,"text":"所以我們認為要補足教育人員的法律專業跟調查技巧人才庫要勢必要增加一些法律專長的人那這個不講了那為何性別案件越來越多呢那我們來看一下統計"},{"start":7569.103,"end":7596.554,"text":"這個是103年、108年、113年的統計可以看到案件的比例大增案量大概變成5倍然後成案率降為37.78所以它的比例成案率降低非常的多那行政業務大增教師有時候某些狀況所以有人開玩笑網路上有人開玩笑說如果是男老師你就告他性平女老師就告他霸凌這就是要整老師的方法網路上有看到這樣的說法"},{"start":7597.745,"end":7625.341,"text":"然後一則以喜就是現在學生性平意識太多他知道去告 知道去求助這是好的可是立則以勇包含教師黃學務行政逃亡 輔導營不足所以我們認為預防重瑜治療可以增加這個性教育的這個課程時數然後發生前的預防 情感教育關係教育以及這個建立一個單一友善的一個申訴管道好 然後補足相關的資源適當分流 及時輔導管教好 以上發言 謝謝"},{"start":7628.382,"end":7639.09,"text":"好 謝謝國教行動聯盟常務理事張文昌的發言再來我們請世新大學性別研究所教授羅蔡英紅婉芳委員請準備"},{"start":7642.466,"end":7662.539,"text":"主席各位先進 大家好很感謝有機會參加今天這非常重要的公聘會我是世信大學性別研究所退休教授羅燦英我也多次參加教育部的性評會也長期的來協助支援中央跟地方的人才庫的一個培訓"},{"start":7664.431,"end":7676.258,"text":"因为年纪的关系所以我得以在性贫法修法的时候就参与了这个程序一路21年走下来的一个经历有一些事情想跟大家分享"},{"start":7677.797,"end":7702.879,"text":"剛剛有夥伴提到有關於這個通報還有事件處理過程中的一個行政耗損那我想在這邊也跟大家報告一下相關資料顯示在100個通報的事件裡邊其實只有四分之一才會進入調查所以不是通報就一定進入調查但是進入調查的案子裡邊有四分之三是會屬實的所以我想"},{"start":7703.979,"end":7731.349,"text":"屬實的案子對我們來說是一個重要的指標但是如果沒有通報的話我們很難去看到校園中隱藏的一些事件所以我想通報這件事情當然是有討論的空間但是它有它的價值第二個有關這個事件處理所耗費的人力物力我們知道事件處理它本身也是一個教育的一個歷程它基本上不僅是對於當事人尤其是行為人的這個教育的一個預防"},{"start":7732.549,"end":7762.129,"text":"它其实在整个事件上是一个呈现我们讲的三级预防中的第三级的预防也就是针对比较有可能持续会犯错的师生我们来给他进行必要的一个合乎行政程序行政正义的一个处理以避免未来出现第二位沉浸心所以我觉得这样子一个投资应该有它一个对社会安定对于全民意识停生的一个功能"},{"start":7763.029,"end":7789.301,"text":"第三个事情就是有关于刚刚委员有提到第三方的调查机制我在这边也报告一下当年我们在研拟性贫法的时候曾经也考虑过是否采美国民权委员会他们的一个做法就是一个第三的专业调查机制当时的很多的伙伴都非常的有教育的影响性是觉得我们用草根的方式"},{"start":7789.881,"end":7797.348,"text":"培育教育人員來進行調查所以當時是採取第二個方式21年來雖然很多的"},{"start":7798.516,"end":7820.754,"text":"调查小组成员未必有很丰富的调查经验但是经过这样子的培训之后他其实在校园中提升了很多的性平意识然后对于事件处理上即令他不见得调查可是他可以及时的协助学校在事件处理程序上有一个依法的处理我想这个也是他的一个贡献那至于"},{"start":7821.494,"end":7838.781,"text":"至於說因為目前我們對師生案的一個重視所以剛剛委員提到是不是有可能在師生案裡面是透過中央培訓我覺得這部分可能是有相當重要的參考價值因為我們現在知道在培訓方面中央目前的"},{"start":7839.381,"end":7856.089,"text":"机制还有目前的落实是比地方一般来讲是密度比较高品质也比较好的所以师生案是不是我们将来可以把人才库进行某一个层次的培训分流或者是分级等等这个我觉得是可以来进行的"},{"start":7857.422,"end":7879.448,"text":"其次有關於課程教學性別事件部分剛剛有好多位的夥伴認為目前沒有機制可是根據我對性平法的了解教師在課堂上面有性別歧視的言辭或者在教材或是考題等等或評論時事有違反性別意識或是性別平等"},{"start":7881.049,"end":7906.803,"text":"這個言行的話其實目前的機制是可以處理的也就是我們的性騷擾的之一的地方他所講的就是一個敵意環境學生在上課的時候如果教育人員有性別歧視的一個言行的話其實是可以透過目前的調查機制然後對這個老師來了解他的行為是否符合一個敵意環境的性騷擾"},{"start":7907.383,"end":7926.541,"text":"所以我个人也觉得目前性贫法的这个调查机制应该可以处理课程教材上面的一个不当而且过去几年来我们也已经开始用这个机制来处理目前应该不太有太大的问题所以我个人并不认为需要再吝啬调查机制"},{"start":7927.923,"end":7954.001,"text":"但是对于因为课程交材而被认定有敌意环境性骚扰的这个行为人教育人员的话我个人非常的肯定我们要非常强调26条的教育辅导因为有些老师他未必是成长在性贫世代可是他的学生是性贫世代的学生因此有可能在性贫意识上的确是有落差的"},{"start":7954.321,"end":7982.735,"text":"那么针对这样的老师我个人觉得对他的一个在职进修在职教育是非常重要的但是我可能会觉得损害赔偿就是第42条的这个准用到因为教材而被成立敌意环境性骚扰我觉得这个不可能还需要大大的商榷那此外我也认为未来的这个提升调查品质的话可能所有的调查事件我们都会建议全部使用人才库"},{"start":7983.095,"end":8005.797,"text":"因為有經過76小時的培訓跟沒有經過培訓的調查人員的確有實體上的差異此外我也要強調一下就是我知道我們現在的人才庫的培訓的課程正在進行調整這方面會提升整個調查證據法則也好行政程序等等的部分所以將來是我們可以正向期待的以上 謝謝"},{"start":8008.24,"end":8018.895,"text":"好 謝謝世新大學性別研究所教授羅燦英的發言再來我們請大直高中性別評等委員會洪婉芳發言下一位羅惠群理事長請準備"},{"start":8020.626,"end":8043.134,"text":"大家好 我是大直高中性平委員洪婉芳針對提升校園性別事件調查小組的公信力跟專業性有提出三點的建議跟看法第一點 成員的遴選跟培訓第二點 制度設計第三點 外部監督三大面向其中第一點 成員的遴選跟性平意識強化"},{"start":8044.494,"end":8069.257,"text":"建立公開遴選跟審查的機制調查小組的成員應由性評會公開遴選並設立審查的小組審核他的性評意識跟專業的背景避免人情或利益的關係介入第二點強化性評教育跟認知訓練所有的成員應該要完成教育部認可的這個性評專業訓練並定期的來接受再教育"},{"start":8069.978,"end":8089.388,"text":"三 增設性別敏感度的測驗來作為遴選跟續任的依據四 多元背景的納入除了法律教育心理的專業之外應該要納入性別研究社工原住民身心障礙等多元的代表來提升整個調查的視角跟全面性跟包容性"},{"start":8090.208,"end":8108.522,"text":"那第二個部分 調查跟決議準則希望能夠制度化一 制度統一調查的這個準則跟量表依據教育部性評網所提供的這個調查處理流程表跟QA手冊進一步的細化調查這個步驟證據標準跟這個決議的依據減少主觀的判斷空間"},{"start":8113.786,"end":8140.052,"text":"二引入交叉的這個審查制度重要的案件可以由跨校或跨區調查小組來交叉審查避免是自己人查自己人這樣的一個疑慮三決議透明化跟說理的義務決議書應該要有一個完整的說理並且提供當事人申付跟申訴的機制強化程序的正義三外部監督跟公信力的建構"},{"start":8141.352,"end":8167.144,"text":"建立獨立的這個監督機制由教育部或第三方來設立這個性評調查委員會定期來抽查這個案件的品質跟程序正當公開的來統計跟評鑑報告每年能夠公布各校調查的案件的件數處理時效還有結果分布以及當事人的滿意度調查作為學校性評"},{"start":8169.206,"end":8182.924,"text":"這個一個GEO的評鑑的一個依據三強化跟司法監察體系的一個建立建立與監察院檢調單位的資訊交流平台對於整個檢查的結果差異"},{"start":8183.965,"end":8202.546,"text":"比較大的這個案件能夠進行一些回溯分析跟討論那最後希望可以透過制度化專業化跟透明化這樣的改革能夠來回應社會對於校園性別事件調查公正性的一個期待真正落實性平教育的精神以上謝謝"},{"start":8204.619,"end":8215.784,"text":"好 謝謝大直高中的洪婉芳老師再來我們請新北市資商新理事公會的理事長羅惠群請發言下一位周雅醇秘書長請準備"},{"start":8218.332,"end":8244.871,"text":"主席各位先進大家早安我是新北市職商心理師公會理事長盧蕙群我在教育現場其實一直都有在持續參與相關的一些會議跟調查先說一下我們常常覺得蠻孤單的因為心理師進到調查這個場域其實非常非常的少但我們也聽到很多老師告訴我們說其實他們非常需要"},{"start":8245.391,"end":8265.716,"text":"心理专业能够再更进到相关的一些会议里面所以要先提到一个问题是在教育现场这个制度刚刚前面已经有很多的先进有提到了在教育环境里面我们都很理解它是一个非常结构化而且是一个非常历史久远"},{"start":8266.596,"end":8288.969,"text":"的一個制度那這個部分呢無論是剛剛前面先進們所提到的例如說在制度面啊可能會有一些互相這個Cover的這種情況或者我們常常講說在制度總是會有一些漏洞那剛剛前面有些先進提到希望能夠有所謂的都是外部委員的一個參與那我想就心理師的一個角色"},{"start":8289.429,"end":8305.802,"text":"是非常同意的因為我們也往往在調查的過程當中會看到很多其他校內委員或者有教育背景的委員其實對於我們講人情這件事情還是會有一些考量的那這個狀況其實對我們來講"},{"start":8308.12,"end":8333.894,"text":"可能就會造成剛剛前面大家所討論在所謂的公平性或者是說到底對於教師或學生在發生事件後能不能夠有效的提供保護畢竟性平法是拿來保護的不是拿來加害的所以這個對我來講在一個結構體制底下如何去全面的去做一個翻轉我認為是一個很重要的一個前提"},{"start":8334.554,"end":8340.731,"text":"那這邊也在特別再強調一下我們先提到這個初考題這件事情我不太確定說"},{"start":8342.408,"end":8369.694,"text":"在考題的審閱的過程當中有沒有外部的性別專家來做審議或者部裡面有沒有成立一個相關的委員會在這個金城國中的事件發生之後因為對我來說可能已經要全面的去審視的是在我們的教育現場大家對於性別觀念到底在我們講性平法又在修法的前提底下"},{"start":8370.274,"end":8384.718,"text":"還有社會的性別環境大幅度的調整底下有沒有機會重新審視在各種教育的教材或者是考題能夠重新去放進性別最好的一個意識的狀態去做審視"},{"start":8387.54,"end":8413.917,"text":"那當然大家也都很理解這個美國近年在川普總統的位置上他有很多很多翻轉性平的一些政策那我也蠻希望能夠強調說因為現在網路的世代大家都從各種很不一樣的管道去得知性平的消息很多時候似是而非的一些資訊反而讓我們很多第一現場的工作夥伴有一點點無所適從"},{"start":8414.858,"end":8430.483,"text":"所以我還是比較期待是部裡面能夠召開相關的專家會議或性別的相關的一些會議能夠集合所有人對於這部分在台灣對於性別社會的一個觀察能夠給部裡面更好的一個指導"},{"start":8431.784,"end":8446.737,"text":"讓大家能夠透過一個更完整的一個檢視來保障我們學生無論是在相關的教材還是考題上不會受到偏誤的一個影響好那另外一個要提到就是在保密的問題喔"},{"start":8447.498,"end":8465.01,"text":"我们在调查过程或者是我们在从事心理事业务的时候也往往会碰到类似像这样涉及到性品案件的一些学生或老师那其实也就是我们刚前面很多先进在提到到底保密是不是真的能够保护当事人"},{"start":8465.911,"end":8493.741,"text":"还是保密让当事人无法求助或者是没有办法把所谓的性平事件能够有个更好的倾诉管道所以这个可能也会希望无论是委员这边修法或者是在部里面在一些制度上的一个规范是不是能够再把保密的这个制度有一个更好更好的一个陈述然后让无论是我们讲在事件未定案前两照双方是不是都能够"},{"start":8494.241,"end":8520.983,"text":"透過專業人員當然我們專業人員都在一個保密義務的協定底下去形成對於兩照雙方各自的一個心理保障因為對我來講也並不是只有保護所謂的申訴人被申訴人很多時候也是非常需要被保障的所以這個也是希望能夠透過剛剛前面也有很多先進已經呼籲了在保密制度這件事情是不是能夠再做一些全盤的考量"},{"start":8521.764,"end":8546.117,"text":"那最後呢我想在這個相關的性平事件委員應該說調查委員的身份資格還有訓練我非常同意剛剛前一位教授所講到的是在訓練這一塊絕對是有它的必要性而且需要嚴格要求相關的資格那這邊呢我也需要再多表達一下在我們專業人員因為我收到非常多專業人員跟我的反應"},{"start":8547.557,"end":8573.064,"text":"在教育部相關的無論是性評人員或性評師資或者性評調查委員專業人員往往不得啟門而入有些時候是在課程的安排或者是時間上的安排好像對於我們很多的專業工作者都是一個蠻大的挑戰即便我們蠻有心想要進到這一層領域但是門檻有些時候往往是突破不了的一個框架"},{"start":8573.624,"end":8592.336,"text":"那這個也希望說部裡面如果有機會的話也可以跟我們心理師公會社工師公會一同來參賞謝謝好謝謝新北市諮商心理師公會理事長羅惠群的發言那再來我們請台灣不會教小孩行動聯盟秘書長周雅醇"},{"start":8593.544,"end":8622.397,"text":"大家早安我是台灣不會教小孩行動聯盟秘書長周雅春那除了布小萌長期在做的性別教育創意工作之外我也曾經擔任三年的國中性評會的家長代表委員然後我自己也實際走過校園申訴的程序所以我今天想要用我自己親身經歷的兩個案例來看目前台灣性別事件的處理機制當中兩個最重要的實務漏洞"},{"start":8623.85,"end":8645.828,"text":"這兩個漏洞第一個是人的問題就是我們在這些過程當中發現掌握調查權和決定權的調查委員和性評委員有一些性評議事是有問題的第二個是制度的問題就是學校的行政端會濫用保密原則掩蓋行政程序的瑕疵甚至他會進行行政操弄"},{"start":8648.009,"end":8667.575,"text":"我現在講的第一個案例就是我孩子曾經經歷過的一個申訴案當時我們針對一位老師長期對學生外貌進行言語羞辱以及對於同志進行負面評論的行為提出申訴這個案件的本質本來是在釐清老師的言語管教是不是不當是不是構成性霸凌"},{"start":8668.135,"end":8696.245,"text":"但是在調查的過程當中調查委員卻將焦點錯誤地放在學生的性別氣質當中在整個訪談中調查委員一直質問我的孩子你是不是同志甚至說只有你是同志才能說老師對你的行為構成性霸凌那個時候我在場陪同立刻提出異議認為這件事情牽涉到孩子的隱私不應該在這個地方被揭露但是調查委員堅持這是釐清案件的必要條件"},{"start":8697.325,"end":8723.745,"text":"這件事情完全顯示調查委員在性平意識上面的嚴重缺乏在國中階段的青少年其實正處於性別認同的探索期許多孩子根本還沒準備好面對這一類的議題更沒有準備好向父母或者是外界出櫃當調查委員缺乏敏感度用行政權力去強迫學生表態的時候不但暴力強迫出櫃而且還會破壞孩子的家庭支持系統直接衝擊親子關係"},{"start":8726.747,"end":8746.093,"text":"這些原本應該具備專業素養保護學生的調查委員卻因為自身的觀念偏差以及對兒童發展的不了解帶頭違反性平法保護學生的精神這證明了目前對於調查委員的資格審查及培訓當中在性平意識的把關這件事情上面是失靈的"},{"start":8747.333,"end":8769.446,"text":"那我在接下來要講的第二個案例就同時凸顯了性平為原 意識不足以及學校如何濫用保密原則來進行行政操弄這個案件是一個關於失對生的性騷擾案件涉及老師對於學生身體部位進行不當評論例如這個老師會對特定的學生說你的小腿很漂亮"},{"start":8769.966,"end":8786.541,"text":"那有許多位分別來自不同班級的學生同時提出申訴那在會議上居然有教師的性評委員公開表示說如果連誇獎學生漂亮都不行那我不知道以後怎麼樣要教學生了"},{"start":8787.502,"end":8802.047,"text":"我覺得這句話反映出就算是身負處理性平安件重任的委員對於性騷擾和稱讚的界線都模糊不清缺乏基本的性別概念如果用這樣子的委員來審議案件那我們要怎麼樣期待可以有公開的結果"},{"start":8804.047,"end":8830.366,"text":"對不起 公正的結果那更嚴重的事情是行政程序的操弄在這個案件中學校行政端利用保密原則來阻斷資訊那個時候學校為了不讓案件成立刻意沒有通知身為家長代表委員的我參加性評會議那我事後追問學校進度的時候行政委員就跟我說會議已經開過了決議是不成立所有申訴家長都沒有意見那已經結案了"},{"start":8830.886,"end":8859.474,"text":"甚至那個時候行政人員跟我說這不是你該管的事後來這件事情怎麼解決呢因為縣政府對於調查結果感到不滿意所以他把案件退回學校在後來被迫重開的性平會議上面這些真相才真正的曝光並且在當時開會的當下我仍然不知道是不是真的像學校說的所有申訴家長都沒有意見"},{"start":8860.154,"end":8883.875,"text":"一直到事發兩年後我在另外一個家長的場合意外認識其中一位的申訴家長才知道他們從來都沒有接到調查報告書甚至他們根本不知道案件已經有結果而且結果是不成立那這些都是學校利用家長和學校之間的資訊不對等說謊已經開會說謊已經有共識如果不是縣政府要求介入"},{"start":8885.576,"end":8900.282,"text":"就是他們介入要求重開會議這個行政謊言就會在保密的掩護之下永遠就石沉大海所以從這兩個案例當中我們可以清楚的看到目前校園調查性平調查的困境我要提出兩點呼籲"},{"start":8901.442,"end":8929.952,"text":"第一個是我們必須要嚴格檢視性平委員跟調查委員的性平意識而且我們要有淘汰機制第二個是必須要釐清保密原則的適用範圍保密是用來保護當事人的個資和案件細節絕對不能用來隱匿行政程序運作的真相個資必須保密行政過程必須透明只有制度化的提升人的性平意識並且打破制度的黑箱校園性平調查才能夠真正發揮它應有的功能保護每一個小孩"},{"start":8930.672,"end":8949.314,"text":"我們發言到此結束 謝謝大家謝謝台灣不會教小孩行動聯盟秘書長周雅醇的分享現在因為所有的專家學者跟登記的委員都發言完畢再來我們請教育部的代表回應是請次長 謝謝"},{"start":8954.279,"end":8979.213,"text":"委員 各位團體代表 各位女士先生 大家好謝謝我們17位先進的發言我個人獲益很多 我有足的都把它叫重點記下來 那我也針對有一些事情做說明 那有一些意見我們後續可以怎麼來嚴處那我們也跟各位先進報告一下 我想還是分成"},{"start":8980.093,"end":9007.739,"text":"依照今天的提纲大概分成几块第二部分还是大家最关心的在调查的部分那在调查部分其实关心的大概是两块一个是那个人员人员的一个专业性那事实上根据目前教育部的规定我们对于专业调查人员的人才库我们是有一些定期跟不定期的检核方式的比如说如果是"},{"start":9009.079,"end":9024.545,"text":"基本上他要加入我們的人才庫我們有75個小時初階進階到高階的課程而且我們是每三年我們三年內會去看他有沒有定期的有一些回流的訓練"},{"start":9025.385,"end":9045.231,"text":"那五年內如果他都沒有參與過任何的調查或申付程序基本上都會被剔除那這個剔除的動作是每年我們會兩次不是等三年是我們每年會去檢視我們人才庫裡面三年有沒有回訊五年他有沒有參與調查我想這是定期的一個檢核那在"},{"start":9046.351,"end":9064.745,"text":"不定期的部分當然就是說針對個別委員他有一些不客觀然後不專業不適任的情形那我們就會及時的來做一些剔除我想這個所謂的一個調整機制交易部目前是在做而且是都有定期在做但比較"},{"start":9065.666,"end":9091.88,"text":"可能會有一點困擾因為剛剛我聽了剛剛幾位先生提出來可能有些是在地方政府的部分是不是有同樣的一個定期跟不定期的檢核方式我想這塊可能就是我們要進一步的去做確認那這一點我想教育部我們會後我也會跟我們國教署一起來合作來協助地方是不是也針對在調查人員的一個"},{"start":9093.641,"end":9110.495,"text":"定期的一個檢核機制這個部分也要做一些落實的規定我想這第一個部分是在人員的部分至於說在調查的一個程序他所需要"},{"start":9111.115,"end":9124.851,"text":"的一些培訓剛剛各位也赤教了很多那我想這也是教育部其實一樣在中其實他有分中央跟地方在中央的部分包括我們的大專校園跟部署的"},{"start":9126.532,"end":9154.911,"text":"國立高中跟私立的學校事實上教育部我們是有培訓課程剛剛羅昌諺老師也特別有提到其實我們最近也在做一些課程的調整會特別去強調怎麼樣來啟動調查怎麼樣去做詢問怎麼樣去寫報告這些都是我們後續會來做處理的那當然這樣的課程我們都有提供給地方那由地方來做參考但是地方這個部分是不是一樣"},{"start":9156.893,"end":9175.695,"text":"這個課程的一個調整或是他落實的情形我想這也是會後我們會來跟地方一起來協力那當然在剛剛其實提到了另外一個重點我覺得這是我們教育部應該先來處理的應該來承擔起來就是性評會本身的部分"},{"start":9176.315,"end":9190.321,"text":"調查小組其實現在我們抓的還算至少在中央部分教育部是抓很緊的可是在各級學校的性評會這一塊是不是從性評會的委員甚至說學校的參與的人員"},{"start":9192.302,"end":9212.736,"text":"除了外部的委員之外專業調查小組學校參與的人員是不是有足夠的性平的意志能夠避免剛剛請很多問題我覺得大概就在性平會針對性平會的組成這些成員是不是有相當的一個性平的意識對於我們性平的程序夠不夠了解他們能不能有一些支持"},{"start":9214.196,"end":9235.527,"text":"讓他們遇到困難的時候可以詢問有人可以引導他那這一塊我剛剛不好意思各位在討論的時候我也一直有在跟我們同仁詢問這塊我想在會後我也會特別針對性評會委員性評會的運作這一塊怎麼樣有一個更好的一個支持我想這塊是教育部我們之後會緊述來處理"},{"start":9237.649,"end":9256.67,"text":"再來第三個就是通報也是各位先進提到很多量的問題其實我們綜合起來看雖然有24000件最後實際調查大概是6000件正式呈案的大概是2000多件其實可以看得出來"},{"start":9257.651,"end":9285.95,"text":"某種程度它是一層一層下來真的會拖到四個月兩個月四個月大概都是比較重大不容易去釐清的案子基於雙方當事人比較慎重但基本上是已經有一些分期的做一些剔除來避免造成現場太大的負荷但是老實講這還是對行政來講是個好損其實對交易部的同仁也是個好損我們同仁每天電話跟處理的案件數"},{"start":9287.711,"end":9309.899,"text":"所以這一塊怎麼樣在這個過程多給學校處理的人有一些支持剛剛各位先進提到的一些建議我想這個部分下一步我們也會來做但是我還是強調以目前的通報機制來講還是有它的意義啦某種程度這也是學生對於自己性平意識的提高"},{"start":9310.619,"end":9338.472,"text":"只要我们搭配好的一些老师的研习或是处理程序我想或许将来这会慢慢有一个平衡的情况可以出现我想这是在通报的部分第四个大概就是提到大家关心的在保密义务的处理我很赞同我们很多先进提到说在保密义务处理目前的一个处理好像"},{"start":9339.272,"end":9358.27,"text":"针对于不同的对象确实没有一个比较清楚的参考事实上我们现在的机制据我目前的了解我的认识是说参与的人员他一定是在性贫法这边已经有非常严格的限制"},{"start":9359.271,"end":9383.265,"text":"但是他底下剛剛其實有先進幫我們分類了那校園內的其他人員呢校園內的其他人員教職人員行政人員最比較容易接觸到的他的保密優惠在哪裡那再往下一層可能是學校的其他的師生或是外圍的鄉民們這個部分怎麼處理是不是有一些可以來提醒"},{"start":9384.065,"end":9403.745,"text":"那這個部分以教育部目前處理來講當然參與人員一定受憲憑法的一個約束那至於其他的人員他在面對這種憲憑案件去做一些不當的傳播當然自然會有各執法跟一些相關民刑事的責任他要負起法律責任但是"},{"start":9404.706,"end":9429.544,"text":"教育部為啥也可以來做的就是說我們能不能把這樣的東西整理出來去告訴學校的行政人員甚至我們某種程度跟同學去做宣傳不要去在這個部分你有不同的一個保密的責任那你也有相關的義務相關可能會被追究責任我們把它講清楚教育部定一個有一個好的一個指引或是一個參考"},{"start":9430.525,"end":9455.838,"text":"然后我们透过这个部分去告诉大家你应该要留意的部分避免自己落入各支法或是其他民刑事甚至可能最后触犯到性平法我想这个是教育部我们接下来在保密义务这个部分可以来做处理第五个部分是在课程教育的部分我想各位都提到蛮多这就是最根本的"},{"start":9456.978,"end":9477.088,"text":"一個處理那課程教學大概有兩塊大家今天關心的是在命題的這一塊那命題的這一塊其實是我們有目前有特別其實不管是在大專或是高中以下中小學我們都嘗試定一些命題你要注意的一些參考的指引"},{"start":9478.388,"end":9501.574,"text":"但是因為你不可能在命題之前就請別人來看因為這有題目保密的問題所以怎麼樣讓老師能夠自我去檢核我的命題是不是適當這塊我們也有在做相關的自我檢核表我想透過事前的一個參考資料讓老師可以參考以及在命題它在那個當下它有個自我檢核表"},{"start":9502.234,"end":9519.244,"text":"甚至我們一些大型的考試會後我們考試完都還有再做一些要求我想做一些審那個題目的一個評估要求作為我們命題單位精進的目標這個我們都有在處理在教學課程這個部分各位提到"},{"start":9519.824,"end":9545.054,"text":"老師其實是關鍵那這個部分怎麼在課程融入這邊其實教育部我們確實都有在做相關的研習但這個研習是不是有落實是不是能夠搭配老師的時間讓老師比較願意來我想這邊我們都還有在經濟的部分那最後幾個個案的說明我也跟各位報告如果以剛剛其實特別提到對不起第六個還有一個在"},{"start":9545.814,"end":9562.564,"text":"性別的這種偏見或歧視部分的處理其實目前的調查機制確實像我們有先進提到已經可以處理了以京城國中的案子或是像名傳大學問卷的案子事實上它都是屬於"},{"start":9564.125,"end":9581.503,"text":"在我們目前性平法第三條或是學校他本來在十三四五條他在課程發現有問題學校本來就可以依職權去調查只要認為有問題他都可以送性平費所以京城國中這個案子剛剛其實陳培委也提到了學校已經解聘然後四年不予任用"},{"start":9582.043,"end":9605.135,"text":"那名傳大學這個案子有關問卷案子也進入學校在校評會做討論對不起 那個性評會在討論那更早之前像政大老師發言的問題學校也啟動性評會去做處理了所以這一塊其實會放進去所以我想這個部分在性評其實不能跟各位做說明"},{"start":9605.555,"end":9635.135,"text":"那现场包括我们很多委员提出了包括我们心理师工会这边说将来有机会是可以来协助我们做调查非常乐意那我们回会后或许我们再跟心理师工会看看可以怎么样来做协助那最后还是谢谢各位也谢谢委员办今天的公订会让部里面其实可以有更多的面向可以把未来在性别事件的处理可以让它更周到更完善好 谢谢大家"},{"start":9637.597,"end":9659.618,"text":"謝謝那個朱次長非常詳細的回應那如同剛剛我們有委員提到這是我們教育文化委員會本屆第二次辦這個性別評點教育法的公聽會那為什麼第二次辦因為上次辦完之後又發生了非常多的事像剛剛委員都有提到的京城國中案然後名傳案"},{"start":9660.158,"end":9682.885,"text":"還有台大案那特別是台大案那大家可能都知道就是社會各界包含我們的教文委員對於教育部的處理方式其實有非常不一樣的看法那也希望教育部能夠更積極的釐清社會各界覺得有不同的想法是不是這個機制出了問題或是法規的解釋那整理一下"},{"start":9683.405,"end":9712.413,"text":"因為如果一旦走向性平事件調查的時候那處理的方式不管是教師的不滿受害人的不滿或者是當事人的不滿或者是社會的不滿其實那個傷害會更大因為他已經勇敢的站出來所以人才酷的專業度今天各界討論很多我覺得這個專業各界有提到的是不是性平專業兒少專業還有對教學脈絡的理解看起來就是客方"},{"start":9712.853,"end":9731.685,"text":"都並不滿意還有那個調查法律相關的專業那保密原則剛剛次長也都有回應了就是分層處理讓尤其是性平事件的處理行政的人員跟個校那他還是要回到保密的原則的目的是什麼"},{"start":9732.185,"end":9749.496,"text":"我想這部分蠻需要處理還有教師有提到就是濫訴誣告然後之後教師權益的彌補這部分也是一個重點那最後呢就是預防勝於治療我們是性別平等教育法不能變成性平事件處理法"},{"start":9750.436,"end":9766.642,"text":"教育的部分沒有好好做的話不管是教師本身不知道然後行政人員不知道或者是社會大眾家長這個部分真的要加強那各校到底有沒有在執行性別平等教育那學生剛有提到師大附中"},{"start":9767.802,"end":9784.943,"text":"請學生代表表達意見可能可以讓學校的性平教育做得更好我覺得這個部分真的是預防勝於治療如果大家都了解然後界限處理得宜的話那才不會變成就是說好像這個性平教育法製造了更多的爭議"},{"start":9786.624,"end":9812.324,"text":"謝謝大家我們會繼續監督依照立法院職權刑事法第58條規定委員會應於公聽會終結後10日內依出席者所提供之正反意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者做參考第59條規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案之參考所以我們會把各位的發言意見"},{"start":9813.004,"end":9816.366,"text":"及所有的书面资料综合归纳会编陈册"},{"start":9842.964,"end":9843.146,"text":"謝謝大家 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166576","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166576","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d103898009cac6a912ce0f200d91c7a5d8c83f2c9a52355be4d236a6179980499944d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"12:55:12 - 13:03:03","影片長度":"00:07:51","會議時間":"2025-12-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長、衛生福利部部長、交通部部長、警政署署長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局局長、法務部部長就計畫性攻擊事件進行「社會治安維護之檢討與精進」專題報告並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-22","start_time":"2025-12-22T12:55:12+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-22T13:03:03+08:00","duration":471,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-17"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.91221875,"end":3.9290937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.9290937500000003,"end":3.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.94596875,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.949718750000001,"end":7.995968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.982218750000001,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.488468750000003,"end":53.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.19971875,"end":55.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.24596875,"end":60.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.98346875,"end":73.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.84221875,"end":93.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.67034375,"end":99.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.64409375000001,"end":102.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.12471875,"end":106.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.27159375000001,"end":134.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.14909375000002,"end":139.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.45596875,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.35784375,"end":149.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.40846875,"end":149.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.72909375,"end":149.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.74596875,"end":149.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.71534375000002,"end":175.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.75034375,"end":180.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.18846875,"end":181.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.29784375,"end":199.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.68784375,"end":198.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.23596875,"end":202.14284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.31159375000001,"end":223.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.79346875000002,"end":230.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.31159375000001,"end":233.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.45471875,"end":233.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.22659375,"end":233.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.26034375,"end":234.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.34034375000002,"end":237.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.31034375000002,"end":237.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.71534375000002,"end":238.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.98534375000003,"end":246.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.89221875,"end":241.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.37221875,"end":246.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.52409375000002,"end":246.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.59159375000002,"end":250.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.81034375000002,"end":256.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.34534375000004,"end":261.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.81284375,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.95596875,"end":267.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.16221875,"end":273.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.17909375,"end":268.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.38909375000003,"end":286.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.70784375,"end":294.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.73221875,"end":291.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.74909375000004,"end":292.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.87534375,"end":294.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.48284375000003,"end":298.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.54971875,"end":298.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.98846875000004,"end":325.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.00534375,"end":299.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.02221875000004,"end":299.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.32471875000005,"end":307.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.50159375000004,"end":309.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.85096875,"end":314.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.05346875000004,"end":315.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.71409375,"end":327.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.37159375000005,"end":331.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.92846875000004,"end":361.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.30784375,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我們台北車站發生了重大人為危安事件我們警政署無辭定調那就在上個禮拜五在北車也就是在我的選區台北市的中正區那首先我要非常的感謝我們第一線的警察同仁還有我們北捷高鐵的迅速的應變"},{"start":35.16,"end":45.368,"text":"同時我們也看到很多的民眾一起起身勇敢的來協助組黨包括不幸過世的瑜伽廠先生他破壞了行兇者的計畫這拯救了很多人的一命那包括了我們北車星巴克的店員趕緊拉下鐵門百貨公司的員工也協助來撤離等等的這是非常的感謝但是我們同樣要檢討的是能不能夠更好的預防"},{"start":61.024,"end":63.305,"text":"那因為台北車站他是一個多鐵共購的場域所以我在總質詢的時候也請拜託我們院長還有部長在我們台北車站我們的跟台鐵跟北捷高鐵好多個單位之間我們的協同勤務這個一定要務必要來加強"},{"start":82.196,"end":86.66,"text":"我們看一下這個就不只是一個單位或一個場所的風險它其實構成是場域風險像這一次這個歹徒他從台北車站到中山站是透過地下街在移動的那麼我們地下街其實可以連接台鐵高鐵跟機捷代表這個風險都是相同的"},{"start":102.213,"end":112.804,"text":"那再來呢這兩天北捷跟高鐵也收到了這個恐嚇的訊息所以呢我要請教的是因為在今年的10月台北車站發生性侵事件之後大家就在討論是我們台北車站聯合防災中心這一個聯合的機制2019年的時候就成立了"},{"start":122.193,"end":139.433,"text":"那麼我在這個SOP當中看到我們當然每一季演練一次那麼在演練的情境當中也包括了無差別攻擊這樣子的演練上一次我們台北車站聯合防災中心針對無差別攻擊進行演練是什麼時候"},{"start":142.709,"end":160.743,"text":"報告委員就台北車站的我們有公購車站的聯合防災會議那上一次針對那個無差別的演練應該是在三年前詳細時間我會再提供我看到的資料上一次針對無差別攻擊演練也就在2019年"},{"start":162.424,"end":188.063,"text":"當然我們台鐵自己本來每一年就針對恐攻有做演練但是我剛強調台北車站它是一個多鐵共購的場域那麼請問這一次聯合防災中心在這一次案件當中它發揮了什麼作用例如說第一個這個訊息是從哪裡來收到的是 我跟委員報告我想剛提到聯合防災中心因為整個大台北車站包括很多四鐵 台鐵 高鐵"},{"start":189.904,"end":211.599,"text":"陶傑北傑那另外一個四街就是四個地下街的一個業者另外一個微風大概總共九個單位所以這九個單位成立一個所謂的台北車站的聯合防災中心那平常是有人在監看的那有發生事情的時候這個的指揮官律定是台北車站的站長台北車站的站長"},{"start":212.506,"end":230.854,"text":"那這個在這次上禮拜五的這個情況發生以後啊馬上第一時間就通知不管是110也好或者是台北市消防局還有119接著一樣通知這九個業者全部都要進駐到每個單位要派一名人員進駐我們在什麼時間進駐"},{"start":234.755,"end":255.343,"text":"這邊看到的應該是在28分就通知了好所以我們是確實有啟動的我也有看到那我請教一下因為這一次後來發現北街有傳出監視器故障但是我們在這個聯合防災中心我們各個單位的監視器本來就是有整合借街的嘛那之前我們有沒有收貨通報呢照理說這故障應該不會是當下即時發生的不知道什麼時候故障有沒有收貨通報"},{"start":262.786,"end":280.314,"text":"這個沒有 那我們在SOP裡面有沒有訂定相關的程序因為他剛剛講裡面總共有九個單位所以他監視器非常非常的多沒有辦法全部一次都有那當然未來我們可以要求剛剛講這九個單位必須如果你有這樣的監視器的問題應該要通報"},{"start":282.995,"end":287.118,"text":"也會未來在聯合防災中心這部我們來加是沒錯這就要拜託交通部了因為我們剛剛講到這一個台北車站他牽涉到單位很多各個場域之間風險是相通的這有可能這個風險有可能跑到我們基捷去這台灣的國門啊所以呢要拜託一下像監視器故障這個照理說每個單位平常都有例行性在巡查的"},{"start":305.33,"end":308.092,"text":"有問題有故障就要報休不是災害發生了才發現故障所以要請你們在這個你們聯合的單位當中請各個單位大家要來配合務必要盡量把治安的死角降到最低謝謝市長慶輝那最後請給我兩分鐘我要請內政部部長有請劉部長"},{"start":332.022,"end":340.869,"text":"部長好這一次的事件令人相當的遺憾但是全民也開始重視其實民防他很重要因為我們在不知道什麼時候要發生但我們平時可以來做準備所以我們台灣全民安全指引因為像我自己就有收到我們李明打電話來問我說要去哪裡領什麼時候可以收得到因為裡面他包含了例如說面對有毒物質要怎麼應變如果旁邊有這個大量出血的傷患的話我們怎麼樣來協助目前我們什麼時候全民安全指引全國可以發放完畢"},{"start":361.605,"end":379.506,"text":"現在台北市已經全部發放完畢那目前全台灣發送的比例是86.6是 那我們預計是在什麼時候會發放完畢呢在農曆年前可以發放完畢因為我們是國防部在印的時候它是分四個階段在印所以它一印完我們就馬上請這個村裡辦公室為主來發放"},{"start":380.367,"end":396.398,"text":"是有沒有規劃做社區對民眾面對面的宣傳說明會報告委員我們現在因為我們認為說在非六都的16個縣市都會到這個大型群眾聚集的地方尤其是宮廟所以我們現在安排大概已經有六七場了"},{"start":396.958,"end":418.028,"text":"我們非常支持我們認為要多推廣民眾民防相關的知識但是呢我們也支持要給足相關的預算我們這次大家都希望說公務同仁要給他足夠的糧草民防也是請問我們今年的全民全社會防衛任性的預算有在年度預算裡面有沒有被刪除"},{"start":419.775,"end":422.22,"text":"我看到的是我們被刪除了2900萬那後來呢針對全身衛防衛任性的訓練我們有沒有內政部有沒有來辦理追加預算"},{"start":429.704,"end":447.832,"text":"追加預算沒有後來就是把這個被刪除的地方在那個再回復後面有再回復我看到了我們在這個追加預算審查的時候跟這個民房相關的預算還有在被刪除甚至還有被凍結的那凍結的預算是什麼時候解凍的"},{"start":451.323,"end":469.263,"text":"好像到上個月11月底才來解凍今年已經快過完了來不及了所以再一次的我要拜託因為很多民眾來跟我們要求也提醒希望我們把民防相關的這些知識跟嘗試可以多加來推廣我們要拜託立法院所有的同仁大家共同來支持預算謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"166574","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166574","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d1038f177c10095994d14f200d91c7a5d8c83f2c9a52355be4d236a6179980499944d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"12:37:45 - 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縱火的是知道是縱火但是縱火不知道他會去做隨機殺人因為他不同區域在中山那縱火的狀況中山就在追就是縱火之後知道他是民而且到台灣去追好那第一個他去做北捷5點23分"},{"start":126.778,"end":129.04,"text":"對我要說這個時間裡面對這個時間軸裡面因為這個時間軸裡面5點23分到到這個18點11分這個有影像出來才連結到說這個是去縱火的所以這個是兩件事情所以兩件那我們當然案件的發生就是跟這個身份跟時間在做賽跑這個是一個"},{"start":150.64,"end":168.293,"text":"是個通緝犯 還有一個可以切入的地點就是說它是2024年11月25號教育召集令沒有到然後可是隔了8個月才發通緝也就是今年的7月11號那7月11號到現在大概也有幾個月的時間我是覺得說可能在這個通緝或者是說"},{"start":169.494,"end":187.379,"text":"找這個人的這個我覺得努力不夠所以我說可能你們有講一些你們的檢討報告比如說你們要從訓練從裝備從演習可是這個部分我覺得應該也要去把它強化是不是這個通氣的時間那麼長段時間裡面你們沒有掌握它的行蹤"},{"start":189,"end":203.272,"text":"剛剛我們法部委就是對於他通緝了發布的狀況那未來這個部分我們會再去做強化就是也就是他因為通緝我們當然是會去做查補那通緝的狀況就是他的居住手"},{"start":204.433,"end":217.141,"text":"這一定是會去做查補不過這個人已經跟家裡這個斷了大概兩年以上的時間沒有住在他的這個資料的一個這個地方所以他是一個不定時的需要一點時間去做查補謝謝署長那我們請衛福部次長跟羅一鈞局長還有署長"},{"start":233.165,"end":255.063,"text":"市長那個我看你們的報告就是大概都針對我們社安網也就是說你們看我們可以預期說你們接下來要多800多億的一個社安的2.0不過這個裡面什麼脆弱家庭保護措施加害人處境沒有這個針對我們這個類似這個邊緣人的這個部分所以是不是可以掌握"},{"start":255.643,"end":277.859,"text":"以後這樣子的一個 比如說酒駕太促然後他是高度封閉他是不是在那個時候在酒駕太促的時候就應該介入他的輔導機制在裡面不然你完全沒有就醫記錄你是不是那個時候他空軍在離開的時候他應該就要輔導他去做心理諮商或者是說精神科的一個診治不然你就沒有辦法接觸到這個人"},{"start":278.599,"end":294.734,"text":"是非常感謝委員的一個的一個槌尋我剛剛你在回答的時候也也說就是說我們過去我也必須要跟委員報告全世界的社安網基本上主要真的都是在集中在有關於貧窮家暴兒虐身心障礙藥酒飲以及精神疾病是"},{"start":295.194,"end":316.491,"text":"那這個我們現在目前這個我們我們現在面臨一個新興的一個整個風險的形態這個我其實主要大概這一次的案案個案呈現出兩個案例兩個特色第一個就是說他是一個成人孤立另外第二個就是說他是一個失聯的一個風險群那這那他的原因包括我們現在目前知道"},{"start":319.513,"end":331.724,"text":"我現在目前就是說我剛也在這一個我們出來三個月之內那個召集專家那個國內有關這方面最好的學者專家學者我們會研擬這個新的風險的好不好好謝謝那局長羅一鈞局長那個關於這個AIDS的這個部分風險就是說這個有沒有所謂的"},{"start":342.393,"end":362.245,"text":"各自的一個疑慮或者是說你現在到目前為止你的預期可以掌握的可以公告就是說給大家知道說這個是安全的這個時間點你有做預估嗎就是在事件發生後72小時之內必須要完成投藥才可以把這個感染的機率降到零"},{"start":362.765,"end":381.164,"text":"所以就已經住院的這個個案部分我們都有個別透過公衛系統跟醫療系統去傳達跟做評估所以在醫療系統這邊已經在住院的有需要投藥的這個傷患的話是已經完成投藥如果不幸有人確診那國家有沒有賠償的機制"},{"start":383.106,"end":404.483,"text":"應該是這樣子講 就是說完成投藥 而且他完成投藥這位應該是說相關的這個需要投藥的都在七次療癒的時候是不會有感染的情形如果真的有發生感染的話因為這個艾滋的治療都是公費在提供 後續也有健保會支持所以我想就那個治療醫療的部分都是會由我們政府跟健保這邊來處理"},{"start":405.504,"end":422.19,"text":"只是說就這個責任的部分呢可能是牽涉到說砍傷之後造成後續連續感染這些的責任賠償的話那個我們會再請教相關的專家來就如果真的有發生不過要強調就是說我們認為只要完成投藥是不會有這個感染的情形發生就麻煩局長再多追蹤謝謝你謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166573","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166573","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d10388731ff96abc3cef1f200d91c7a5d8c83f2c9a52355be4d23544e1c7167db85fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"12:27:11 - 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張署長委員好部長和署長我首先要感謝我們今天的司法法制委員會我們做成的提案就是對於這個余家廠先生他在第一時間他可以說捨命抵禦歹徒那怎麼樣"},{"start":28.143,"end":38.954,"text":"內政委員會對不起對內政委員我講錯了不好意思趕快更正對內政委員會做成提案讓這個瑜伽廠先生可以入寺終列祠我覺得這是今天我們非常好的一個提案"},{"start":44.58,"end":67.392,"text":"那我有注意到部長在面對媒體的時候也有肯定那所以非常感謝這個內政部那我想今天我們內政委員會變更議程針對這個社會重大事件一起國內外的矚目的事件做這個專題報告大家可以看到就是我們各位委員其實關心的層面非常非常廣"},{"start":68.152,"end":72.177,"text":"包含剛才的那個地學中委員也關心到我們社會層面的這個心理還有社區的關懷所以他絕對不是一個今天是為了政治性或者是為了護航蔣萬安市長而辦的這個專題報告我想這個是非常非常清楚的"},{"start":85.194,"end":100.249,"text":"那我也希望在這個社會承受一個這麼重大的創傷之後尤其政治人物真的應該要有所節制真的應該要有所節制不要動不動就用政治去解讀好我們先看放一張影片"},{"start":116.616,"end":118.998,"text":"也有時間的關係那我們就看圖片我想這個事件發生之後那麼昨天我們也看到我們中山分局的這個所長耿業的就是在講到其實我們的員警已經盡力那也看到我們很多這個我們在轄區內的員警其實他們是在休假當中那麼他接到這個通知之後立刻就"},{"start":145.977,"end":160.598,"text":"機車就停下來就立刻去執勤那當然大家看到這個攻堅的畫面也就是當張文提逃到頂樓之後那麼我們七個警察衝到第一線的時候那很多人就看到說"},{"start":162.02,"end":166.204,"text":"面對這樣的一個兇殘而且有這種致命性的這個他的兇器的這個兇嫌在逮捕的時候沒有配槍沒有配槍那如果你相對最近不是也發生在AIT有一個可疑的題材那個是防暴小組出動可以看到這樣的裝備他是一個防暴小組的出動"},{"start":187.763,"end":204.091,"text":"所以我想請問一下署長因為你們把這整個時間序也把它交代得非常清楚我看那個報告那麼警政署是什麼時候知道在捷運站裡面有這個重大的攻擊事件請問一下署長警政署什麼時候知道的"},{"start":206.132,"end":213.478,"text":"我們案件發生之後就馬上就知道了大概什麼時間大概就是大概6點鐘左右就知道6點鐘左右所以我要請教的是因為當天現場我想包含這個轄區內的警察"},{"start":221.944,"end":227.247,"text":"就是派出所一定在調配他的人力所以剛才發生就是員警在休假中趕快接到這個通知立刻他連去領這個配備都來不及所以這個會出現說沒有配槍然後好像裝備都不足只是拿了這個警棍而已"},{"start":241.016,"end":259.17,"text":"好那我想請問一下如果警政署得到這個訊息因為當天他是有丟煙幕彈有煙幕彈而且在台北火車站台北車站的時候已經有攻擊事件那個那個瑜伽場就已經攻擊他他當他最後是死亡嗎"},{"start":260.228,"end":287.544,"text":"所以當天現場有沒有派防暴小組出動報言這個部分不是屬於類似這一種爆裂物是它是煙霧它是煙霧所以跟這個AID的狀況是不同的所以這個是消防的給我們的這個訊息所以這個兩件事應該不同的類型也就是資訊要正確今天如果是一個爆裂物我們當然會出動這個防暴小組來處理"},{"start":289.133,"end":296.615,"text":"這個AAT處理用防暴小組來處理因為當時沒有人認認的一個不是炸 是一個提袋裡面是眼鏡但是當時擔心它是爆裂物可是當天現場其實已經有煙霧彈但是後來事實上它還有汽油彈它只是當天沒有拿住汽油彈所以我在這邊特別要講的就是說"},{"start":314.861,"end":322.284,"text":"像這個攻擊事件他從下午開始縱火一直到大概在下午在5點多鐘的時候已經在台北車站已經出現丟煙霧彈而且有攻擊他那個已經有人受傷死亡"},{"start":331.067,"end":333.811,"text":"我認為啊對我們警察的時候警察他的配備還有你們的所有的通報調度我還是會認為讓警察會暴露在第一線如果當時他是跳樓他跳樓當時凶嫌跳樓死亡"},{"start":347.828,"end":367.829,"text":"如果因為當天天色已晚那這幾位警察他沒有 他也沒有配槍然後你知道其中有一個死亡的就是他這一個箭就是他這個刀一弄下去就立刻封喉欸就是死亡者有個立刻封喉的真的是非常非常倒楣真的是悲劇所以我的意思"},{"start":368.55,"end":375.053,"text":"警察在第一線我們幸好這一次在警察沒有發生憾事可是如果我們看到這個第一線的畫面我會為警察捏一把冷汗所以就是說當時我們接獲通報然後他們接獲這個指示但是他們事實上當時身上的配備是不足的所以我必須講其實很多事情不管中央也好地方也好"},{"start":396.164,"end":400.047,"text":"我們應該感謝的我們感謝我們應該包養的要包養但是該檢討的也要檢討我更認為是說真的我們要防止下一個悲劇給我一點點時間因為呢我們今年全國有44場的跨年活動你們也有算包含廟會包含很多的這個耶誕活動"},{"start":420.239,"end":434.877,"text":"今年有137場以台北市 昨天的台北馬它的出動的遠景超過原來部署的一倍對 這是原來的兩倍嘛 增加一倍之多"},{"start":435.898,"end":446.121,"text":"所以我想請問一下台北市宣布說在跨年活動時候要有保安警力要派駐霹靂小組要有防暴車要有偵報犬要設置車主而且這次要有細胞簡訊這個是在台北市礦打派議員他們的建議之下蔣文安市長他同意未來要發細胞簡訊同樣的事件"},{"start":464.341,"end":483.934,"text":"發生在北車也有可能發生在桃園也可能發生在新北也可能發生在高雄所以我想請問請問署長或者部長可以回答像這些在馬上面臨的這個全國這麼多的跨年活動或者耶誕活動都是人潮聚集"},{"start":484.614,"end":488.575,"text":"那這幾個我剛才講的台北市說他們要做那請問一下全國是不是也會同樣的規格各位報告我們從禮拜六禮拜天集合22個縣市的局長由部長跟我對於未來到不管是到跨年或是耶誕或是過年盤點總共137場的重大活動那我們都會依照活動的這個性質做最高規格的維安的部署"},{"start":514.66,"end":520.983,"text":"包括裡面不管是怎樣的一個措施我們都會做這樣的一個 這些措施都會都會做嗎 都會把它納入這樣的考慮就是除了這個警力之外我們還有加入這些民力因為有些警力是不足的我知道 這些民力包括一警一家民防或者是保全或者是地方不足的中央也會去做支援 我看到你們報告你們是準備動用一萬七千多人嗎對 包含民力啦 包含民力"},{"start":542.113,"end":566.595,"text":"那所以其實員警會非常辛苦喔尤其在這個整個的未來跨年活動或甚至一直要延長到春節那另外我請教一下或者部長來回答我一下就這一次呢其實非常確定的是台北市未來要用細胞簡訊也就是比如說你在北側其實我們有去旅遊韓國旅遊也是一樣他們連哪個地方發生通緝犯"},{"start":569.216,"end":590.602,"text":"連旅客都會收到簡訊旅客也會收到簡訊所以他們這次台北市會採取跨黨辦議員的建議就是這次北車它發生了這樣的一個攻擊事件那立刻在它附近的不管是商圈也好就是附近的居民"},{"start":590.982,"end":608.771,"text":"都會接到細胞簡訊讓他們知道這附近就是發生發生這樣的一個暴力事件或攻擊事件讓大家提高警覺否則的話那個兇嫌他在他在那個馬路上在那邊丟汽油彈還有人以為是在拍電影"},{"start":609.591,"end":621.144,"text":"所以那個部長是不是能把這裡面這幾個最後把它規格化也就是說除了台北市之外其他的縣市有這樣大型跨年活動也會有這樣的一個規格來做防範報告委員"},{"start":624.788,"end":651.329,"text":"如果地方政府依照現在行政院災防辦他們只做疏散撤離那可以跟行政院的災防辦來申請但是申請的時候有一些要件譬如說這些群眾有沒有被教育到否則你發了一個疏散撤離沒有把明確的文字寫清楚的話疏散到東南西北邊或者疏散到上峰處或下峰處反而會造成恐慌"},{"start":651.889,"end":666.944,"text":"所以呢台北市政府要申請這樣的程序我們並不反對但是我希望可以跟行政院的災防辦能夠說清楚把這個訊息非常明確的規範出來那同時參與的因為這些大型活動都是不確定的人潮"},{"start":667.965,"end":691.488,"text":"所以呢他必須要能夠接受到這個相關的訊息的時候那他知道他自己怎麼做否則會引起恐慌其實我們都知道包括大型的賽事世界上其他大型的賽事活動甚至大型的演藝活動如果你沒有做好這方面的資訊上的告知的話引起不必要的恐慌甚至會產生其他第二次的災害反而會造成大家的困擾"},{"start":692.148,"end":705.8,"text":"所以我建議說這是一個很好的方向但是要界定清楚譬如說我們哪個地方發生地震四級的時候至少國客會告訴我們地震的震災的中央要往外擴幾公里那我們就發細胞簡訊"},{"start":707.321,"end":737.081,"text":"我想每個人在過去的訊息期間都有收到包括颱風啊警報等等這些但是這次是因為有這個維安的訊息那維安的訊息是要快那既然要快的話到底在哪裡那這次的這個嫌犯呢他從這個林森北路的縱火的地方到北車再到中山站再到南溪這麼長一串下來這個時間點如果你發送不對的話反而會造成權限可能是上好幾十萬人會覺得不曉得要做什麼事"},{"start":738.042,"end":742.045,"text":"這一點呢可能我還是要一再提醒我們不反對但是呢還是要能夠做精確的預估其實部長這樣講我是能同意所以是不是未來醫院比如說我們這個地震的這個細胞檢區大家都也很熟悉了可是呢有這樣的暴力攻擊或甚至未來"},{"start":756.778,"end":777.964,"text":"真的也不排除有恐攻的狀況的時候那這個細胞簡訊該怎麼發那或許是各縣市要跟災防辦要做一個甚至要做一個演練但是我真的覺得這個事件我們付出相當的代價但是我們要用這個事件裡面從好幾個面向其實該去補強的就去補強該去檢討的就去檢討不要迴避好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166571","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166571","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d1038a2781acc51cf359af200d91c7a5d8c83f2c9a52355be4d23b7913e8a5730d50f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"12:02:39 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喂 您好我聽到情況我們發生這個遺憾的這個嚴重的事件在這裡要簽署我們有保證我們將對國內風地這種類似恐攻的反應機制我們有這種回味"},{"start":30.043,"end":45.275,"text":"這個案件還沒有說是恐攻案件 現在看起來應該是有計劃的隨機的一個襲擊事件但是我們的恐攻事件 我們是有這個機制在做編組"},{"start":47.056,"end":51.16,"text":"專備訓練我們有這個技術在做尤其是在我們的維安特勤隊對於恐攻的這個狀況是有做這樣的編組跟訓練而且目前都正在實施在做訓練當中我們看到這個感覺起來是一定是有一個結尾聲"},{"start":69.418,"end":81.526,"text":"這個人看起來是戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的這個人是戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有戒衛生的?對,有"},{"start":97.273,"end":102.775,"text":"這個案件 當我們未來 未來我們這個演習我們競爭單位演習當中 未來將會配合到我們這個車場捷運跟這個人口密集度的這些範圍內來進行這個演習我們醫療會來做這方面的這個演練叫那個訓練這是一個重大仁安的事件"},{"start":125.565,"end":147.225,"text":"這樣的話,我們是要替我們警察銀行來講話我們才看到我們的署長,透過很多網絡來指責他們指責說他們執勤到位,逮捕嫌犯的速度最慢其實我們都會了解,我們警察收到通告"},{"start":148.186,"end":155.814,"text":"他們有時在外面睡覺他們在外面要睡覺,快點去捏鬆筋捏鬆筋,捏鬆筋,捏到睡覺這有可能在這時候時間延誤,會去傷到更多人我們警察,要明心切第一時間趕快去現場,已經把現犯"},{"start":168.005,"end":181.095,"text":"繼續在一個陰暗處我們叫警察說 從這個陰暗處去逮捕那些刑犯我們跟郭靖這個警察比例有辦法安全出來當然是要等 要等到說我們的支援部隊的狗我們才可以去逮捕 像這樣所以"},{"start":191.083,"end":203.675,"text":"我們有時候發生到社會事件不是我們要害不是我們要害發生社會事件也不可以將所有這個體涉給我們的警察的動力我們貴姓 大家因應措施這個國分可能要請我們補充我們要來研議研議一套"},{"start":214.525,"end":223.668,"text":"研議一套的歷來將對這個隨機殺人的這個應應百姓的應應措施如何自訪 遇到我們就覺得比較可惜的一個勇敢的貴姓去做事結果他是第一個去向台灣台時的這個我們覺得比較晚時他們如果再讓自己"},{"start":241.957,"end":253.105,"text":"因爲比較好的狀況,又讓自己先離開離開現場,換有人受傷但就看另外的人來,來抵抗這個狀況現場沒有人去受傷所以,我們如果說你今天,你有去練清雅你有練優德,你有練抵抗你有一身的智慧的能力也不一定有辦法去練手技、胸肌的狀況、那個能力"},{"start":270.777,"end":289.352,"text":"因為他走到鄉市,那是健身瘋狂事的亂砍我們年輕,我們師弟母知道,你看我演過舞蹈,你看我看過大軍我們就是都有正式的一套年輕的方式,在訓練無情的訓,先放這樣走到台灣,走到歐國來,歐國台所以,我要建議一項,我們現在全國的經歷,想要都謙虛"},{"start":299.78,"end":308.543,"text":"警力是否欠缺?警力是目前有些是欠缺的欠缺,我們都知道但是警力,警察也是要休息的我們如果有一千個警察,有可能當這個時間是更加的休息我們警力欠缺的情況下,我們還有一個第二組織"},{"start":320.686,"end":330.071,"text":"第二組織的會鄉民,我們衛生公司,譬如我們捷運站,我們國體公司,我們鐵路公司,他們都有請一個給我們保護住的"},{"start":332.495,"end":350.302,"text":"保全,我們要看如何把這個擱穿的零元,跟他們訓練,可以做專業的防範犯罪,還是核實犯罪的零元,定義是做我們警察的地理固定。"},{"start":350.982,"end":354.865,"text":"我們可以讓他們開機,他們現在開機是什麼?一支警棍,應該是一支警棍,他們的護衛,我們可以感恩他們,因為我們使用電磁槍,使用電磁棍,用這個比較加強性的防禦的武器,來讓他們隨身攜帶,他們可以來代替警察,來做第一算的這個防禦的這個行為,這個國防事務,"},{"start":380.743,"end":395.256,"text":"把我們輸掉跟補掉 給你們分用一下 給你們建議一下這個國運 您想可以考慮一下 委員你這個建議很好 我前跟前天我跟補掉就是給"},{"start":397.037,"end":399.839,"text":"22縣市的警察局長對警力有一些部署都是要用民力來一起參與所以這次未來就是這個應援事務機關對於這個保全的這一些的人力的增加跟裝備的這個充實"},{"start":414.105,"end":437.535,"text":"我覺得這是一個很好的方式因為每年的訓練可能會退休可能有一些不足能夠協計能夠加入這些的民力進來對未來的社會的安全的保障是更加一層的保護可能要麻煩我們輸掉我們補掉我請你先休息一下我請我們的衛福部次長我們的衛福部次長"},{"start":446.978,"end":474.179,"text":"市長 我們這次的隨機殺人事件顯示在醫院已經有失聯行為偏差的徵兆但這次的事件對著今晚的社政和心理衛生的體系建立高風險個案的機制有什麼可以改善的方法"},{"start":475.3,"end":480.062,"text":"非常感謝委員對我們這個問題的關心就像剛才委員所說的我簡單來講我們過去的社會安全網最主要所針對的風險我叫做救風險這個救風險最主要的就是 委員你剛才所說的可能有10%的"},{"start":494.449,"end":501.054,"text":"吃藥 精神疾病 兒女的身心 還吃飽 硬硬吃但是這 我老實說 這有一點比較屬於我們傳統其實我們這裡 其實我們要來綁這個也已經 也已經很努力但是現在這次所表現的就是說 有一種新興的風險我們分析起來有兩個重點 第一就是說"},{"start":517.927,"end":532.377,"text":"他就是 都會說叫成人孤立他已經大人大賤 但是問題是他內心他可能受到外面的一些挫折自己也不怎麼說 我如果委員報告其實我們的藥測的時候過去兩年他完全沒領好這個就醫的紀錄也沒有來做這個精神疾病所以像這種 他就是說 第二個要件就是說"},{"start":542.904,"end":562.284,"text":"他四年嘛 跟社會完全都隔離 但是他每天可能會做一些想念海裡的事情所以我們現在就是說 我剛才也有跟委員報告說我們三個月以來 我們就是跟我們一些 請教一些專家尤其我們警察大學 我有很多公共安全的部份 有很多專家 我們要請教"},{"start":564.887,"end":568.569,"text":"這個新興的風險 我想必須我們來面對我們這次我也有委員報告 我們是很危險但是我們一家政府就是有義務我們有責任 要來處理這個問題三個月以來 我來提出這個報告來用委員報告感謝市長"},{"start":583.795,"end":599.076,"text":"當我們分明後衛黨電視上就有發生一個事就是暗示軍心 他的心理狀況有問題但是這個這段時間可能有用演技去恐嚇到出名的家庭但是"},{"start":600.277,"end":614.964,"text":"因為警察來,他是一個有心理的疾病的一個傢伙,警察有辦法把他拘留還是怎樣,結果放他回來之後,發生了遺憾的事情,"},{"start":616.184,"end":622.791,"text":"就是他要趕時間 趕到鹿洋中 所有東西都要出台了所以起來全都 全對這個心理輔導的這個高風險群組的輔導機制希望說 我們政府要再強化一下"},{"start":633.203,"end":641.291,"text":"感謝 我簡單講一下 我們現在也已經在安全網裡面有一個我們現在第二期要來升職 我們社區的心理衛生中心到目前為止 我們是幾位要來全國一百控一署到明年 我們議制要來升職 七來一署相關的議程也拜託議員給我們支持 感謝麻煩我們次長 好 感謝我們丁立文 謝謝謝謝丁"}]}},{"id":"166570","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166570","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/540097afd73d103875a79d478cf7e11ff200d91c7a5d8c83f2c9a52355be4d23b7913e8a5730d50f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"11:55:15 - 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我請署長有請張署長委員好保證你們聽一下 因為這是你的業務啦署長 我前一陣子在台南辦活動 聖誕節的活動我看到很多東林 亞東青 蓋比"},{"start":30.258,"end":40.807,"text":"就是為了這個事件 是你有統領全國 國管制還是只有台南我統領全國 全國嘛 全國 不是說一個台北市而已全國 你是我同胞的這就是一個 米霧丟米霧啦 是好聽的一些給來而已當然 也會責勝全台灣 大家都很緊張嘛"},{"start":56.874,"end":73.408,"text":"我們的提案過去 合情在世界裏面算提案很好我們的國家但是我看你今天你的報告跟說明裏面就是說不斷去提起這個是模仿的作案模仿的作案大概就是模仿這個政界如果這樣你判斷"},{"start":86.616,"end":91.86,"text":"他最後跳樓這個是要遭遭遭遭 要主宰這個保安應該還要調查啦 因為他當年辦案的經驗"},{"start":100.646,"end":112.93,"text":"我看他如果要去上樓 要去上樓 總共他就是 跳下去就是 可能要結束他的生命我看他要跳下去的機率比較大"},{"start":119.648,"end":129.572,"text":"如果這樣過去說這個地方掉下去這個地方都是災害在那裡是不是有屬性 你說的它有價位 還有有沒有 又怕沒方那麼如果是 那間公司說的那個地方都是災害災害這就是一個翻窗"},{"start":144.605,"end":163.416,"text":"你不能擺脫喔委員 這我都會去做調查啦就是說有一些都是都是這一套 我覺得很多東西就是要靠前期啦所以 這我怎麼會去做了解因為我們今天要了解這個人去的競技啊我們就要要了解他是什麼競技啦因為他所謂模仿 都是模仿這個政界政界是破私刑啊那既然破私刑 他何必跳牢呢"},{"start":174.867,"end":200.916,"text":"所以你說他跳牢就是準備要主宰有比較矛盾我個人的感覺就是說因為我們現在大法官釋憲之後就已經是實質的匯讀施行台灣做生意實質的匯讀施行讓這個台獨呢他在作案的時候他感覺說他現在不會判施行所以我用了政節作案的方法"},{"start":202.373,"end":210.858,"text":"甚至殺傷幾個人 造成幾個人失望 永遠不會發生死刑是不是因為這樣 這地方你有考慮了嗎委員 我們各種可能性 我都會納入來做偵查的方向那這樣 在這個社會 你覺得說修分的言論 不斷藉著修分跟對立"},{"start":233.015,"end":236.756,"text":"累輸的案件 我個人感覺會越來越多非常不同的尤其台北省的政體領域有的比較不積極的 少數部分不小的政體領域還在挑法什麼北部是什麼人 可能是怎麼做這種事情我們沒有辦法做不及承諾"},{"start":262.202,"end":263.403,"text":"要輪椅的伯母 像她在說的腰底清醒 曲身不小之離 高射水彎 歡聲待好之助不用這樣在製造社會生活那麼對著這件案件 本縣領委說"},{"start":286.178,"end":294.28,"text":"在全國 你也要通靈說 全國 當地 留下的所在 集會 認定這個所在 要來加強改變請委員 我們台南市經歷不足 你知道嗎對 好 來在不足的情形下 譬如說 國管署有經歷不足的情形下那這樣在國管署的 譬如說 國體站 會車站 專運站"},{"start":314.355,"end":321.458,"text":"這裡是臨調很多觀光站的那個所在區的分局可以針對這六區的分局 六點到六區的分局的經歷 盡量去充足 變好教育"},{"start":333.118,"end":342.893,"text":"這我會來做檢討 所以我這兩天 拜六禮拜有幾乎十六個 二十二個 官司局長就在那裡研討說要這方面的處理 也來議論議題啦不中這例 有人要注意的就是說"},{"start":348.797,"end":356.124,"text":"對在經歷不足的既成狀況下他要叫你一時補職也不可能嘛如果這樣在調配在國管制裡面的國分局的經歷調配是不是可以優先讓這個裂口裂店"},{"start":368.653,"end":375.817,"text":"會分局 跨界不要亂借 變成跨界的中間他如果欠10% 他這邊可以欠5%這樣呢 伊比不惜其輸啦 你認為如何這委員的這說法我支持 就是第一層直接要去處理這個緊急事件 民眾的報案這第一層的經歷要有做啦 我同意啦"},{"start":396.107,"end":405.514,"text":"京豐很辛苦啦 但是這個辦案的過程 也不會對你得受苛責啦 不管在事件發生之後 把所有的課室列為會處的檢討啦那麼隨時有可能會 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國安局掌握到有沒有"},{"start":131.645,"end":152.746,"text":"目前個案還在偵查當中都沒有到目前為止沒有看到這個嗎沒有署長要不要解釋一下就目前有沒有看到他是一個主持犯罪有人指導有人指使以目前現在偵查到目前的進入是還沒有發現到這樣的一個狀況所以對於這個因為他死了嘛所以對於他犯案的"},{"start":153.246,"end":171.432,"text":"有沒有共犯跟動機還在全面深深的偵查那不過我們現在初步可以看得到掌握的物證其實我們要看要看物證他是一個模仿的一個行為而且是一個這樣的一個跡象而且他是一個類似這些的一個地點"},{"start":172.975,"end":192.407,"text":"是一個計劃性的行為是一個隨機但是這一點都在他的計劃的一個一個行為在這種情況之下這個你可以看到這個剛才又有人又有冒出來說昨天又有人講今天下午一點半要在北捷放炸彈"},{"start":193.398,"end":214.463,"text":"這個模仿的部分我們都第一時間會去做查處而且去做偵查而且速度會很快我也利用很多的場合像從開始的案件到目前為止我們現在有發現22件那以前有查核事情都依法來一送正辦我們一定要讓民眾的心安二指這樣的一個模仿的一個行為"},{"start":215.103,"end":231.198,"text":"其實在台灣我們的治安在全世界是一等一的治安是非常好的啦所以老百姓來講習慣了你知道治安非常好所以大家也不會有那種警覺性拍到這個事情老實講一般的普遍老百姓不知道如何因應不太會"},{"start":232.159,"end":258.317,"text":"所以你覺得要不要或者是部長跟我們解釋一下你的消局書裡面要不要特別加強一下我們碰到這樣的事情隨機殺人老百姓的怎麼做或者我們要不要演練要不要演習我們下次會把委員的意見加進去不管是我們城鎮任性演習或是精華演習就是在大量群眾的疏散撤離這一塊通常都是用桌上兵推來處理"},{"start":259.298,"end":286.517,"text":"那下次我們在演習的時候會把這種無腳本式的已經是牽涉到事實的案件把它加進裡面還有小局書的部分其實我們在114年的7月我們的警政署有發布這種類似暴力啦或者是搶劫等等這些但是這是小局書認為因為機率不高沒有列進去下次我們會把它列進去裡面有些內容人家有些醫生打槍你說你們CPI不見得寫得那麼的精準不過這不是我要問的來"},{"start":289.11,"end":315.627,"text":"這個請教署長我們要不要把煙霧霧彈跟信號彈要不要管制這個目前的煙霧彈跟信號彈是這個煙霧彈是不是管制要沒有管制啊信號彈也沒有管制啊那我覺得這個要嚴厲啦其實從源頭來做一個處理嚴厲看看是不是是不是讓他實名制我覺得就最少實名制可以嗎什麼時候可以實施"},{"start":316.614,"end":342.9,"text":"我們來嚴厲啦 就是委員這個我看我們是不是用一個月的時間來一個月的時間因為這個可能牽涉到有一些相關的可能有一些是厭惡但是要去做求救的什麼這一類的一個狀況所以還有一些可能像生存遊戲的這一些的一個相關的這個狀況我們是不是就是說像這些不能來用犯罪的一個狀況"},{"start":343.88,"end":355.407,"text":"那我們是不是怎麼來做一個管制至少實名制啦實名制就沒有問題啦我們這部分來嚴厲好不好好最後一位你們請回我請一下那個衛福部的市長好不好請請請有請理事長理事長我就問你一個很簡單的問題他這個張行啊張文啊他算不算社會的邊緣人"},{"start":374.209,"end":395.676,"text":"包委我們現在我們社安網的服務對象主要大概是在貧窮家暴 惡虐 逍遙飲 精神疾病還有藥毒防疫 它都不是啊包委 那因為在所謂的邊緣人 我想這個需要嚴格定義啦我們現在目前政府做事我們現在目前基本上還是要有一定的一個整個判斷的標準"},{"start":396.656,"end":418.978,"text":"那成如剛剛跟委員也在大院裡面有報告我們社安網裡面主要是針對有家暴、惡虐、身心障礙、藥酒飲以及精神疾病你不能加一個進來就是說對於這樣子的一個無差別攻擊或者是在公共場合大規模的隨機殺人要不要放進來"},{"start":419.819,"end":428.844,"text":"包委我們現在就是這個案例我想他凸顯了兩個問題就是說有一種游泳人他屬於所謂成人孤立另外第二個他是失聯的風險群"},{"start":430.222,"end":450.293,"text":"那這個我想是新興的張文都是啊 你這兩個張文都是啊所以我們也我們現在目前也會來我也承諾在三個月之內我們趕快會來針對這一類新興的這個部分邀集專家來做你再把他叫進來吧你們原來沒有這一類群的啦沒錯好 謝謝感謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17140","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17140","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbc22d0fafdfecfd60b59bb4d1c2baa0f23fa04411479d882af014ea3ec5905b415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查： \n(一)\t本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查：\n(五)\t行政院函請審議「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員邱議瑩等18人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員林俊憲等21人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳俊宇等20人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員王美惠等22人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員劉建國等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t本院委員許宇甄等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等25人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十四)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第九條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)\t本院委員黃秀芳等22人擬具「農民退休儲金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十六)\t本院委員郭國文等21人擬具「農民退休儲金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十八)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(逐條審查)\n第(五)案至第(十八)案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-22T08:32:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-22T09:57:00+08:00","duration":5077,"影片長度":"01:24:37","委員發言時間":"08:32:23 - 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請組密報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員5人 以組法定人數現在開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1844.761,"end":1866.645,"text":"立法院第11屆第4會期經紀委員會第16次全體委員會議示錄時間114年12月15日星期一9時至12時39分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員林黛樺等14人列席委員黃國昌等9人列席人員農業部部長陳俊記環境部常務次長沈志修等主席楊昭紀委員瓊英報告事項宣讀上次會議示錄決定確定"},{"start":1869.366,"end":1889.842,"text":"邀請農業部部長及環境部首長就2027年全面禁止廚藝養豬進行報告並備諮詢農業部部長陳俊濟及環境部常務次長沈志修報告後委員林大化等19人提出諮詢均由農業部部長陳俊濟及環境部常務次長沈志修等及其答覆決定以登記發言委員除不在場者外區域均與發言完畢 詢答結束"},{"start":1891.044,"end":1902.856,"text":"2 委員陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄 刊登公報3 書面質詢和未及答覆部分 請相關單位於一週內與書面答覆並複製本會委員 另有要求期限者從期鎖定 上會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1910.042,"end":1919.49,"text":"因為現在我們的委員已經組我們的這個可以確定的議事錄人數我們先確定上次會議議事錄OK嗎OK嗎議事錄"},{"start":1930.581,"end":1954.08,"text":"謝謝我們通過本日議程所列討論事項第五案至第十八案因為仍在復議期所以目前尚未接獲院會交付審查的議事處的來文所以今日的會議不予審查我們今天只有審查我們一到四案的部分我們繼續進行討論事項請一併宣讀"},{"start":1959.231,"end":1979.421,"text":"討論事項 繼續審查1 本院委員謝依鳳等16人委員郭國文等17人 分別擬據農民退休儲金條例第7條條文修正草案等二案2 本院委員蔡宇等20人委員陳亭飛等19人 分別擬據農民退休儲金條例第2條及第7條條文修正草案等二案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1982.945,"end":1998.174,"text":"我們先介紹一下在場委員還有列席的官員有楊瓊英委員 蔡議員 賴銳龍委員還有我們的陳俊敬部長所代理我們所有的同仁大家辛苦了那我們現在"},{"start":2002.572,"end":2018.581,"text":"因为本日议程所列讨论事项已于12月8日询答完毕现在进行主条讨论我们请议事人员宣读所有条文若有修正动义及附带决议请一并宣读宣读完毕后我们来进行协商请宣读"},{"start":2019.401,"end":2044.798,"text":"農民退休儲金條例修正草案委員蔡易瑜等二十人提案第二條本條例之主管機關為農業部委員陳廷飛等十九人提案第二條同委員蔡易瑜等提案委員謝一鳳等十六人提案第七條除第三項墨具修正為按月提繳一點五倍金額其餘同縣刑條文委員郭國文等十七人提案第七條同委員謝一鳳等提案"},{"start":2045.518,"end":2072.379,"text":"委員蔡易宇等二十人提案第七條第一項至第三項除第三項莫具修正為按月提繳相對應金額其餘同現行條文增訂第四項前項農民及主管機關依第三條第一項共同提繳之金額應合幣計算為提繳總額由主管機關與農民依百分之六十與百分之四十之比例分擔之現行條文第四項一列為第五項"},{"start":2073.16,"end":2083.345,"text":"委員陳亭飛等19人提案第7條 同委員蔡依如等提案委員楊瓊英等3人所提修正動議第7條同委員蔡依如等提案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2096.881,"end":2111.988,"text":"好 我們跟大家報告我們要開始進行協商之前我先跟我們所有的委員做一下報告讓大家也知道我們後續的處理因為原本5到18案"},{"start":2113.008,"end":2128.557,"text":"我们已经有希望各党团来签署所谓的不复议的部分可是有党团还没签出所以目前相关的资料讨论四项五到八案"},{"start":2129.377,"end":2153.554,"text":"5到18案都还在复一期要到12月30号所以我们待会我们讨论完我们会让他出委员会然后并所有后面5到18案然后并案我们再来进行协商我们不要再等了我们一样就是这个都是对农民好不论是对我们"},{"start":2154.659,"end":2182.43,"text":"整個退休的儲金農民的發展他後面的生活有保障包括我們青農的未來也是很重要所以我覺得時間很重要所以今天待會一到四案我們針對一到四案討論完五到十八案我們一樣就是併到我們協商來做協商的處理那我們現在進行協商"},{"start":2186.367,"end":2213.298,"text":"來我們請農業部說明我們第二條應該這沒有問題吧對啊第二條最主要是把我們的原來的那個行政院農業委員會改成農業部這個部分我想我們主席第二條沒意見第二條沒意見來第七條來那個部長說明第七條的部分那基本上"},{"start":2214.398,"end":2233.928,"text":"那個兩位委員的版本是由提成那個就是1.5倍1比1.5倍這樣子那相對的我們送到那個立法院的版本雖然說還沒有送到委員會來討論我們是用4比6的方式來處理的部分"},{"start":2234.508,"end":2252.066,"text":"那這個部分跟蔡議員委員跟陳廷輝委員還有楊瓊瑩委員三個領銜的版本是一致的但是文字可能要做一些修改那是不是我這邊可以念我們行政院送到立法院的一個版本的一個說明"},{"start":2254.726,"end":2272.378,"text":"那最主要就是因為原來的部分是第一個部分就是現在已經沒有所謂的那個基本工資現在是用那個最低工資的部分這是第一個可能要做調整的那第二個部分就是我們現在所設計的是"},{"start":2274.321,"end":2290.247,"text":"基本工資的那個最低工資的兩倍當做一個母數那這個母數裡面政府出60%那農民出40%用這種方式那因為原來的部分他的原來的條文的寫法是"},{"start":2291.127,"end":2319.648,"text":"用那個最低工資然後最低工資只講農民他是針對最低工資的百分之最高百分之十然後第二段在寫說政府要對等的去做提撥但是現在用用總數天花板不變的情況之下那個政府跟農民的比例是是6比4的部分所以我是建議就是用我們原來現在送到上禮拜五送到立法院的一個版本我可不可以念一下"},{"start":2321.696,"end":2342.771,"text":"好 就是第七條 農民與主管機關依第三條第一項規定按月共同提繳之總金額然後依每月最低工資乘以提繳比例之兩倍計算那農民負擔總金額之40%主管機關負擔總金額之60%就是這裡做改變 那後面是一樣的"},{"start":2351.328,"end":2372.541,"text":"好 那個部長報告完了因為行政院的版本一樣是在這個12月30號才會有這個通過複製期然後原本我們是希望說可以不複製但是因為有黨還沒簽所以這個是農業部所提出的他的條文其實方向是一致的"},{"start":2373.061,"end":2395.903,"text":"就是政府负担60%农民负担40%只是他们依照他们可以的相关单位汇商出来的文字结果希望用行政院版的方式下去做论述所以方向没有改变大概是这个状况那我们请这个赖瑞龙委员"},{"start":2397.668,"end":2423.943,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長我想大方向上我同意農業部這樣一個方向的來修改但是我也提出來 但是因為還沒有過戶預期我是主張因為其實在農民退休儲金的部分其實都還是相對偏低包括農民的也是相對的偏低包括體撥的這個部分那我希望給予更多的一些支持所以上次在質詢的時候我也提到"},{"start":2424.763,"end":2448.517,"text":"布林麵包思考用7比3的一個這樣的思考的方式給予農民更多的支持跟照顧同時間也更加的鼓勵大家因為現在農民的包括不管是現在的親農要回去的回鄉返鄉服務的部分其實相對於還是困難難度還是很高的而且我是希望說能夠有更多完善的這些制度我覺得這一段時間以來從"},{"start":2451.159,"end":2465.61,"text":"這八九年來其實我們推出了這些相關的這些制度面其實對於農民有多了很多的保障但如果說在這方面我們能夠更進一步完善的話是有機會讓農民的退休這一塊能夠做得更好了那相較於"},{"start":2466.611,"end":2491.212,"text":"其他的部分我覺得農民跟勞工都還有很大的空間我希望農民這一塊能夠再加一把勁部長是不是思考看看就是3比7的部分這樣的思考70比30的方式來給政府再多出一點點然後再給農民少一點點然後希望更多農民加入到這個制度裡面來然後為他們未來的退休增加更多的保障部長好 謝謝我們請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":2495.175,"end":2520.691,"text":"非常感謝本席所提的修正動議跟提案也是在等待進來那也謝謝主席以後我們就是併案去討論那一個重點就是在我們農民依照第一項的規定提繳農民退休儲金之後主管機關依農民提繳之農民退休儲金"},{"start":2522.012,"end":2536.169,"text":"按月提繳相對金額因為以往我們的條例是按月提繳相同金額所以這個相同跟相對那就是等於是隨時應變滾動式去"},{"start":2540.113,"end":2568.893,"text":"當時的一個情境所以針對於相同跟相對本席的提案希望能夠得到行政部門以及我們同仁的一個支持那第二個也就是在針對於我們農民及主管機關單位第三條第一項共同提繳的金額因何並計算為提繳總額由主管機關單位與農民依實際上本席的提案是6比4的一個提案"},{"start":2570.053,"end":2583.928,"text":"的一個比例分擔那為什麼會這麼提因為我們原來所通過的大家努力通過的這個5比5的比例呢在整個執行過程當中它的落實度並"},{"start":2585.229,"end":2606.42,"text":"達不到我們的滿意度而且它的普遍性也不夠所以本席才會提出6比4的一個比例當然剛剛行政部門農業部長也提出你們的版本也是6比4那也有委員同仁希望7比3我想我們共同的目標也就是希望能夠真正的讓農民"},{"start":2607.481,"end":2629.326,"text":"有一個安定感那同時這個安定感也鼓勵我們的青龍能夠加入這個行列所以以上是本席所提議 謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員 請蔡議員主席我剛好舉手我在蔡議員之前沒有他很早就來我剛才在他前面蔡議員他比較早 對啊"},{"start":2635.193,"end":2654.778,"text":"那個部長我想你今天這個比例4比6的這個方式其實有呼應本席當初所提的那個草案那時候草案的比例上是有呼應因為當初本席是說提撥跟相對提撥率是1比1比5的概念所以比例上是有符合"},{"start":2655.498,"end":2679.377,"text":"但是在所得替代率當中是不符合的也就是說你只是減少提撥被保險人的一個成本負擔但是沒有增加這個以後的給付金額也就是你剛剛你在報告當中所謂天花板不變的一個情況底下可是今天我們還要回到當初草案當中我們技術委會提出修正的最原始的本意"},{"start":2680.057,"end":2696.849,"text":"最原始的本意就是說我們在農民儲物金實施如此多年的情況底下覆蓋率還是如此之低也就是說不到三成不到三成我們在制度上的誘因不足但制度上的誘因有兩種一種是提撥的這個給付金額另外一種是"},{"start":2700.171,"end":2727.363,"text":"整個提撥金額另外一個是給付的金額也就是所得替代率好 今天你是用想要用提撥的金額的成本的負擔的降低來提高這個覆蓋率不是嗎那另外一個方式是把這個給付的金額提高的增加覆蓋率好 你現在已經把比例上呼應本息但是本息還是認為不足還是不夠應該還是要在這一個覆蓋率的提高還有一個重要的誘因其實是在給付的部分"},{"start":2728.223,"end":2751.82,"text":"就是政府相對提撥的幾乎的部分的倍數的成長也是剛剛所謂的天花板的部分要予以打破我認為這優因才夠可是你今天多數的委員都已經提出這樣的版本我畢竟說是一步的進展但是我認為還不夠但是我認為這個部分呢你要去思考如果我說你今天所提的降低了這個提撥的這個成本之後數年之後"},{"start":2752.62,"end":2757.131,"text":"我們的這個覆蓋率還是沒有提高的話那就顯然你的政策判斷有問題嘛 部長"},{"start":2759.15,"end":2784.542,"text":"所以我待會兒會提一個附帶決議案我跟蔡議委員提一個附帶決議案這個附帶決議案的問題我給你三年的時間每年因為現在不到三成附加率不到三成我們目標最起碼要五成以上一年給你7%的一個目標值三年之內你如果沒有達到50%的話那我們應該重新來思考把這個天花板給打開"},{"start":2785.743,"end":2809.04,"text":"把這個天花板打開才有意義嘛 對不對否則的話一個農民儲金的推動always在那邊低檔回旋不夠三成 那要看清楚那要看清楚 農民你撒出來的菜我們沒人要吃嘛 你的菜色不夠豐富嘛所以部長 你要好好思考這個問題啊你只是片面的修改 你沒有完全的修改啊"},{"start":2809.56,"end":2834.291,"text":"你一邊修改 另外一邊沒有修改你把地板 幾戶的地板壓低把提撥的地板壓低但是沒有把幾戶的天花板提高啦我認為最大的誘因其實是在所得替代率啦所有的所得替代率在最關鍵啦目前的所有的農民津貼再加上我們農民儲金的所得那個總金額是所有職業別當中最低的加起來一般就沒有"},{"start":2838.34,"end":2858.352,"text":"連最低生活標準的查聽得懂對不對 部長我們修改這個 用意是在這邊嘛我們要建構整個農民的一個社會安全網嘛老年的一個退休生活嘛關鍵是這裡也不中麻煩你縮刻一下啦這才是重點啦我給你三檔的時間 醫生"},{"start":2861.709,"end":2882.679,"text":"那个报告一下因为易宇他是第一个到我们经济委员会的所以我很公正的所以我问我讲一下预防待会大家会有争议蔡易宇委员外就是谢凤来陈超明这个部分我们都有记录不好意思谢谢我们请蔡易宇委员好"},{"start":2888.189,"end":2914.419,"text":"我想跟部長來反映農民退休儲金基本上就是為了讓農民有一個退休制度那這樣的一個退休制度我相信如果我們這次把它改成4比6基本上這個方向是朝向更好的方向可是我一直想要跟部長來反映一件事就是說我們農業部所管的這樣的應該是包括農林漁牧"},{"start":2915.259,"end":2934.999,"text":"那我就一直在思考因為在我的選區有農民也有漁民那漁民他們是投保的都是投保在漁會就是所謂的漁保的部分漁保的部分你來想像他是政府他如果是甲類漁民就是沒有一定雇主的特地做漁民他是自己負擔20%政府負擔80%這是漁民的部分"},{"start":2939.083,"end":2954.756,"text":"所以你看到很多事實上它又屬於農又屬於魚的它會趨之若鶩的讓自己去變成魚保的為什麼它會這樣那就是因為2比8所以大家很多人都說我想辦法要變魚保"},{"start":2957.478,"end":2980.029,"text":"那為什麼會有這樣就是這個制度的差異所以我在想農業部你們應該制度方向要朝向說未來呼籲這些漁民都回來參加我們的所謂的農保這樣才是比較健康的概念不然你說這樣的話沒有一定雇主的漁民他就是要變成在投保就變成漁保就是漁保就是變相的老保"},{"start":2980.849,"end":3004.7,"text":"那如果我們可以讓整個農民的退休包括漁民的退休制度是大於現在所謂在這些漁民他們在投保勞保的一個方向的話這樣的話會讓這些人回歸正常所以我們這是4比6沒有錯可是跟現在漁民在講的漁保還是有差距那我覺得說"},{"start":3007.722,"end":3032.217,"text":"我們農業不管的就是農林漁牧啊那為什麼要把農跟漁做這樣的一個落差那這樣一個落差變成說讓這一些一樣他們是從事著我們的這個糧食生產的工作可是他們的保險卻有很大的不一樣然後兩邊的不同身份的人就會互相比較事實上這樣的比較對政府都是不方便而且很容易被造成批判就是說"},{"start":3032.837,"end":3050.676,"text":"好像现在哪一个制度提高了然后另外一边的制度就说那我也要跟着提高这样对你们来说都是很辛苦所以我是觉得你们应该整体从农民荧幕的太阳然后好好去思考这件事情好 谢谢好 谢谢蔡宇委员我们现在请谢一封委员资讯讯的"},{"start":3052.551,"end":3078.326,"text":"其实我认为我们今天在讲这个是希望说能够增加它的这个覆盖率就是提高这个覆盖率那我不晓得而且就是说按照现在是就是说我觉得农业部都没有提出一个试算的这个就是试算表然后来告诉我们说这样子提拨然后最后农民可以拿到多少钱的"},{"start":3078.746,"end":3105.526,"text":"那還有就是在過往的就是說最近來講到底就是說這幾年來農業部對於推廣這個就是我們農民退休儲金到底推動的績效是如何的因為我們看到就是說我們一直希望說政府能提高給予農民的這樣子的就是退休儲金的那個的保障嘛那"},{"start":3106.326,"end":3122.303,"text":"但是好像目前农民端都没有就是说相关的反应以及相关的回馈那我们会认为说这样子今天在这里谈法条我们当然是说希望以提高就是政府"},{"start":3123.024,"end":3142.651,"text":"那个农业部的那个提拨来来增加这个覆盖率但是我觉得是不是农业部在这几天就是也是给我们一个试算的就是给委员会一个试算的表让我们了解说这个情况是如何的那我们比较清楚的知道说现在未来我们"},{"start":3143.231,"end":3164.139,"text":"如果不行的時候怎麼樣子再繼續的往前推動那我覺得這是比較重要的那也希望說最後我們這個農民退休儲金的通過能夠增加對於農民退休以後的保障那對整體的這個政策有幫助那這是我們希望的方向 謝謝"},{"start":3167.396,"end":3188.462,"text":"那個部長我那天報告說你好像有一個試算你把它弄給大家看一下你有一個試算表對啊有他有個試算表有四位委員是不是要先回應還是全部結束沒有你先試算因為有東西就是先讓大家看一下"},{"start":3196.136,"end":3205.433,"text":"對 你們準備一下那個試算表準備一下部長你先回應先回應那個 謝謝剛才那個四位委員包括那個"},{"start":3207.907,"end":3223.262,"text":"郭委員 蔡委員還有謝委員還有賴委員的一些提案那你等一下好了還有陳昌明委員要發言那個陳昌明委員謝謝主席我以為縣市長或許能講完了就要做結論報告報告部長"},{"start":3229.256,"end":3243.473,"text":"那個農民退休時期是照顧跟支持農民也是建立農民社會的安全網非常重要其實今天由立委提出來農民負擔事實政府負擔"},{"start":3245.935,"end":3259.1,"text":"60% 我覺得要像郭國文立委這樣所講 覆蓋力要提高 要快速的提高那我建議少買幾顆飛彈就有所以我建議是由農民負擔30%政府負擔70%少買幾顆就夠了考慮一下 考慮一下 多多照顧農民曾天才委員"},{"start":3272.552,"end":3280.025,"text":"這個覆蓋力很重要尤其是原住民的這個比例更低了更低所以在"},{"start":3283.055,"end":3301.484,"text":"除了今天等一下會有試算表之外怎麼樣能夠去解決這個覆蓋率能不能會後也提供相關的這些說明會比較下次在協商的時候會更明確以上謝謝好我們先宣讀一下附帶決議"},{"start":3305.458,"end":3325.868,"text":"附帶決議定案 針對農民退休儲金第七條修正有鑒於農業部所提版本為調整農民與主管機關共同提繳金額比例農民與主管機關按月共同提繳之總金額依每月最低工資乘以提繳比率之二倍計算農民負擔總金額40%主管機關負擔總金額60%然考量目前提繳農退人數高達94%"},{"start":3335.733,"end":3363.337,"text":"選擇提繳最高上限10%以及目前投入農退制度之農民及青農長期無法突破30%門檻請農業部於修法通過後農退覆蓋率以一年成長7%三年為21%為目標若兩年無法成長10%則檢討農退儲金制度並改以提高相對提撥為1比2為方向提案人賴瑞榮"},{"start":3364.057,"end":3385.59,"text":"蔡宇宇 陳亭飛 劉建國 郭國文 連署人謝一鳳 宣讀完畢好 我們把附帶決議一併納入討論那我們還有幾位委員還沒發因為大家方向其實都一致是不是有委員還在發言 易營或建國劉建國 然後再邱易營 劉建國"},{"start":3391.336,"end":3409.595,"text":"我接續 部長我接續剛剛蔡議員所講的我也講一個實際案例我昨天到雲林縣的口衛鄉就是就是海濱就對了要吃苦辣的 抹啊抹啊 昆油啊 凍 肥膳很多其實大家都很清楚"},{"start":3411.257,"end":3435.951,"text":"這漁保其實就是勞保 並不是農保所以當時我們在疫情的時候有做這相關的補貼其實就分作兩個處理的方式農保的部分是農保的部分漁保的部分 其實我們講漁保實際上他是在講勞保的處理方式我是要跟部長講一個昨天晚上我們剛好有一個聚會那個聚會有差不多100多人"},{"start":3437.403,"end":3460.299,"text":"我用台語說的 我說現場有開始叫農民、土金的人請走一百多個沒有一個人舉手但我是必須跟部長很坦白講說一百多個當然年紀大的比例佔差不多七成那當然還有三、四十歲、五十來歲的應該差不多有兩成多"},{"start":3461.243,"end":3481.083,"text":"那我們上三個禮拜開始在講農民儲金新聞都有出來 黨團也有開記者會你看喔還有人到現在不曉得農民儲金是什麼也就是說他根本連起心動念要去了解 要去繳都沒有了"},{"start":3482.563,"end":3496.453,"text":"所以這個是蠻嚴重的問題啦那另外一個當然有另外一個因素就是因為他去補啊 他是留補啊所以他沒有這個資格嘛他不是留補的時候 他沒有這個資格當然他想要知道他也覺得沒必要啊"},{"start":3497.381,"end":3508.467,"text":"但是這樣就不對了這個事情應該是在在那個疫情的時候我們就已經開始做這個相關的分別的補貼的時候其實就有討論到漁民這一塊我們應該怎麼處理那時候我記得"},{"start":3513.07,"end":3532.101,"text":"我們農業部也有提出一些意見就是朝向簡單讓他一次化農林雲木農林雲木大家都要說但是這個國家辦的保險竟然就是不一樣當然我知道過去的歷史背景不過我們是在那一次的時候我們確實是有討論說要怎麼樣趨於一致"},{"start":3533.501,"end":3554.694,"text":"所以這個還是會牽涉到我們今天在退農民儲金遇到了這樣的一個瓶頸一個障礙所以這個給部長做一個思考謝謝我想我們是不是第一輪發言完先讓我們部長所有回應我們再進行第二輪我們請邱議員委員第一輪我們請部長"},{"start":3557.547,"end":3573.405,"text":"我想謝謝剛才所有的委員的一些建議跟提議那我這邊分幾個部分來做說明就是我們要保障我們農民退休的部分大概分為兩個區塊一個就是農民退休儲金然後另外一個是"},{"start":3574.326,"end":3601.688,"text":"那么老农津贴一个是老农津贴一个是农民退休储金它是一个堆叠的部分那老农津贴这个部分包括额度包括牌付的部分其实我们都有在处理那因为在时间的关系就是还没有办法进到立法院来那这一块的部分当做一个基底然后退休储金的部分是从他开始从农的时候开始就做这样的一个设计去投保让他"},{"start":3602.769,"end":3622.328,"text":"農民退休以後我們試算的是他至少不會比老保的那個老年給付還低我們的絕對我想農民一定有尊嚴的不可能比農民還低這是我們的一個設計第一個原則那第二個部分就是回到這個退休儲金本身的一個設計來講那根據我們的所有的問卷那現在"},{"start":3626.272,"end":3647.93,"text":"這些特別是剛才郭國文委員的30%那是應該是青年農民的部分如果以整體來講把可以投保的人來當母宿的時候已經超過49%多快50%了是整體但是年輕人年輕人大概只有百分之二十幾到三十左右"},{"start":3648.47,"end":3667.71,"text":"那這個區塊我們在歷次的座談會裡面他們提到說當我30歲我不會太在意65歲以後領多少我現在在意的是我現在可不可以少繳一點所以因為這個關係所以我們在設計的時候就是用政府多負擔一點"},{"start":3668.451,"end":3694.335,"text":"然後農民少繳一點他的保障不變的一個前提之下那我基本上我也非常認同郭委員所提到的就是我們有一段時間去檢討這個覆蓋率如果拉高特別是年輕人覆蓋率拉高的時候那表示說我們這個部分是有意義的那另外我也要跟委員報告上次在專案報告的時候我也說明其實我要用另外一個方式去激勵他們的覆蓋率"},{"start":3695.035,"end":3702.223,"text":"就是只要你有投農民退休保險的話我的政府的相關的政策的補助我都加碼"},{"start":3703.206,"end":3732.059,"text":"那這個部分的加碼會遠比你每個月這個多少繳的部分還高一點那我希望用這兩個方式就是你退休儲金我讓你少繳然後第二個你只要保了這個農民退休儲金我的所有的政策的加碼這個加碼下去可能都是5%至少5%左右這是第一個我想特別是剛才郭委員所提到的那另外剛剛包括蔡委員提到的包括那個"},{"start":3734.021,"end":3737.614,"text":"劉委員提到的還有謝一芳委員提到的就是"},{"start":3738.925,"end":3764.841,"text":"有一部分的人農民分農民跟漁民的部分那漁民在過去的設計都是勞保或是甲類會員就是無一定雇主的部分那其實我們也考慮到這一塊但是因為時間上在送進行政院的時候比較慢的時候那如果說再退回來再重新審查會變得很慢所以我也非常認同委員所提到的就是想辦法"},{"start":3765.802,"end":3794.78,"text":"把這些曾經是保勞保的無一定雇主的就是我們的漁業的部分我們能夠把他納入我把它稱為斜槓人生就是他雖然繳勞保但是他實際從事農業的行為就像漁業他實際從事農業的行為的話我們也認同委員所提的版本就是也開放讓他加入退休儲金那他未來就怎樣他的"},{"start":3795.68,"end":3823.033,"text":"老保的部分就是老年給付但是他的退休儲金就是農民的退休儲金那這樣子的話跟我們現在目前的那個農糧的部分是保障是一樣的所以我想雖然說我們的行政院版本沒有這個版本但是我們絕對以農業部的立場我們絕對支持這樣的一個版本這是一個部分那剛才第三個謝委員特別提到的那個績效的部分我想我們等一下會"},{"start":3824.293,"end":3851.646,"text":"會有提到還有一個試算的部分我這邊先稍微說明一下如果經過試試算的部分我們現在的版本是如果說是2950那如果是以政府的版本是變成他掃腳就變成2360那如果是以4比6的版本的時候那就是我看4比6版本就23602360那以郭委員的版本因為"},{"start":3853.058,"end":3879.952,"text":"那個除了4比6以外最後的那個天空板也打開嘛那那個部分他領的錢會更多啦最後領的錢會更多那我是不是可以請求委員就是我們先處理這個4比6然後再配合處理農民老農津貼那未來三年以後如果說覺得這個部分包括當時的狀況的時候是不是打開天空板那時候再來處理那我想我們會尊重委員的一些意見"},{"start":3881.672,"end":3887.536,"text":"好 謝謝部長等一下 二次發言先舉手是郭國文委員再來楊瓊英委員"},{"start":3889.977,"end":3915.39,"text":"謝謝部長剛剛的回應我有幾點第一點就是說剛剛所謂的擴大被保險人的投保這我基本上我也表示認同因為不管是議議委員剛剛提到的或者是建國委員說提到的把漁民納保還有把一些無一定僱主職業公會的投保人有實際農作的還有一種你不要忘記還有一種是國保"},{"start":3916.19,"end":3937.532,"text":"他即便是國保有實際農作也應該還有一次是軍人退休之後他沒有請領其他的退休給付的一個軍人退職之後實際從事這個農作的這也應該納入啦也就是說把這一個被保險人多元化來提高另外一種覆蓋率的可能這是政策上應該去思考的問題"},{"start":3938.593,"end":3955.027,"text":"那第二個你剛剛提到說你會用其他的制度的誘因是在農民津貼的部分這個你如果有的話我建議說你把這一個辦法把它明確化你要怎麼樣會多增加這個誘因這個才有說服力"},{"start":3955.687,"end":3974.103,"text":"第三 你剛剛提到就是說你如果把這個所謂的1比1.5倍的部分在天花板沒有變的情況底下降低它所謂的給付是你們田野調查或民調的結果好 這個我尊重可是當你們訂這個的時候你們有沒有去推估說那我的涵蓋率會多少"},{"start":3975.337,"end":3995.168,"text":"涵蓋率剛剛本席所提的這個部分的30%當中大部分的人提撥 足足而提撥的就是說10%的是高了4%的人提撥10%就是超過9成的人根本不在乎不在乎你這一個所謂的提撥的金額"},{"start":3995.908,"end":4023.379,"text":"所以你提破經的降低的情況底下本席就有一點質疑你為什麼降這邊你沒有提高這邊所以本席的質疑是有他的道理的存在所以你這個部分有沒有可能你做一個政策推估你這個有辦法你要有自信你既然是做這樣的決定你要有自信要講出來對不對否則的話你就真的要明確的去思考滾動式的檢討是不是應該把天花板提高這是本席的一個主要的一個看法"},{"start":4024.318,"end":4049.278,"text":"我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝 我想我們的目標都一致要怎麼樣幫助農民 覆蓋率要高那剛剛部長所談到的兩件重點第一個 你的誘因 照目前為止我們所討論聽到的你認就希望 4比6的一個比例 這一個"},{"start":4050.88,"end":4073.98,"text":"但是我們也希望能夠再高所以你的方式是希望有其他的誘因甚至你剛才說在各項的補助協助方面只要你納保進來那你就有這個優先權在整個補助您剛才籠統的是說各項的補助大概會到5%以上"},{"start":4074.9,"end":4092.395,"text":"各項的補助到底是什麼現在我們都不知道所以你要趁這個時間到時候我們併案協商的時候要把它表格化出來讓大家都能夠更清楚那也的確現在目前台灣有很多第二村的工作"},{"start":4093.175,"end":4108.449,"text":"甚至有很多他財經類的可是他就是很喜歡來做我們的農作回到家鄉來做農作這是很快樂的一件事情這也是我們希望更多人加入我們的農作很重要的一環"},{"start":4109.55,"end":4138.109,"text":"我想這一點很重要這些人要怎麼樣讓他也能夠加入我們的這個農作的團隊裡頭讓他們在各項的納保或者是補助方案能夠讓他們有所誘因而且願意來參與來落實這個就是我們今天所討論的這個法案最重要的一環我也希望在並案協商的時候將大家所提供的意見本席所提供的意見能夠"},{"start":4139.63,"end":4154.018,"text":"比較明確式的來說明這樣子才能夠達到各方所討論的法案的一個最後凝聚力的一個有效能的法案產生本席具體要求 具體建議 謝謝"},{"start":4156.239,"end":4171.265,"text":"謝謝楊瓊委員我想跟部長提示一下因為在5到18案現在立法院院會裡面還沒有這個通過夫妻期的部分其中其實最重要的就是我們能夠把"},{"start":4172.265,"end":4192.405,"text":"我們這個資格的問題也就是他本身有軍保有勞保有工保如果在這當中他轉換在短期進入到我們這個農民的生活的當中那他在從事農業工作那這個部分是不是"},{"start":4193.126,"end":4219.994,"text":"能够在还没有保农保的时候也可以享受到我们的一个农民这个退休处境的部分大概很多的这个提案都在5到18岁是在针对资格的部分这也是另外一个游营也就是现在我们了解很多青农他本身前面可能他有老保的资格那你叫他"},{"start":4220.774,"end":4244.884,"text":"去為了保農保要加入農退然後去放棄勞保他不可能所以我們現在這個重點是讓他有選擇也就是說當他勞保的時候他如果進入到農民生活農業生活他是可以選擇不用保農保就可以保農退"},{"start":4245.804,"end":4271.685,"text":"这个也是很重要的一个诱因这是在我们5到18案里面很多的委员都有提案的部分所以这个也是很重要所以比如说刚刚很多委员所说的你的诱因在哪里你要把它调列示出来我鼓励你来保农退那我有什么诱因相对的诱因在哪里希望调列示出来我们请刘建国委员"},{"start":4274.521,"end":4292.042,"text":"那一天在巡討的時候部長特別提到了就剛剛楊委員所講的黑5%黑5%是什麼 不會低於5%只要你加入農民儲金我們相關的這些支持配套就不會低於5%那講得很廣泛"},{"start":4292.703,"end":4308.873,"text":"但是完全很難聚焦到底是哪幾項你只要加入農民儲金我農業部就支持你然後相關的補助就不會低於5%這個到現在沒有明確化這第一點那第二點剛剛郭公園所講的我其實心裡也有這樣感受因為"},{"start":4309.773,"end":4328.322,"text":"因為我們日本人說明按照統一大公佈的基本工資的十分之一你只要繳這個十分之一現在是兩萬八千九百五千嘛二百五九啦五百九十塊啦所以現在有教育的人是自己繳到前鋒啦嘛二百五九嘛"},{"start":4329.195,"end":4341.94,"text":"沒有一個要繳兩千塊的他連美索也要繳到九千塊所以他嫁給那些人他們說他不去查一件事我不是去提倡人你們是要給嫁給賣的人檢一件事我們就不給負擔一件事嘛要用這樣做誘因給附近的人提款嘛但是我在主張我是希望活動民負擔35%都要補負擔65%"},{"start":4356.585,"end":4376.742,"text":"這咱來對照其他政府收盤的保險來說也是其他有志啊這樣是不是才可以加強誘因當然國安委員他是希望說農業部從前面來從前段來思考那後端未來的這樣的可以領到的保障也要一併來做調整這也是絕對一條正確的處理的方向了"},{"start":4377.122,"end":4397.735,"text":"那我這邊是強調說那我依照農業部的思考裡面讓加入農民的可以減少一成的這樣的負擔農業部來多增加一成來做這樣的支持那為什麼這比例比例是算10%比例所有算一成為什麼它不是更多一點"},{"start":4399.767,"end":4410.625,"text":"因為就誠如剛剛郭委員所講的你們提供出來的數據現在有你叫的其實他們都叫我前鋒對不對都是按照阿美尼多病2萬95我相信有你叫的人他就叫2950看我"},{"start":4415.077,"end":4442.687,"text":"所以可以叫人 根本他不會說那個差幾百塊對他來說不是嘛 他也認同嘛所以我是希望說真的今天要擴大這個覆蓋率那最後剛剛趙偉特別強調其實那個退伍軍人只要他退完之後他沒有領什麼那個退休奉啦 月退奉來講而且他有持續的從事農務工作這我們都要勾勒他"},{"start":4444.518,"end":4453.501,"text":"這都來過了二百啊這我們有在修正條文的第三條之一啦當然還有很多條文不過這次就是沒辦法見到一併討論嘛謝謝謝謝我們謝一鋒委員然後再來蔡議員"},{"start":4462.867,"end":4478.238,"text":"我認為就是我們剛才已經討論很多那當然從部長已經回覆的部分就是對於你們對農民的就是一些調查所呈現的是他們希望說現在少繳一點"},{"start":4479.719,"end":4497.458,"text":"那这个部分那当然有很多委员认为说是不是因为就是未来的这个试算的结果那到底领的时候能不能提高还有就是相关的我们未来可以加保的"},{"start":4497.958,"end":4525.582,"text":"各類的這個可是我也認為說我們是不是應該也要跟其他的保險做一個相對的比較那我們才能了解說怎麼樣子提高這個就是農退的相關的這個覆蓋率嗎那我覺得這個部分是不是在下一次協商前我們都會有一個初步的相關的那個報告那我們大概比較好能夠就是說下一次法條的討論的時候能夠進入比較實質的協商好不好"},{"start":4528.886,"end":4555.733,"text":"謝謝 我們請蔡議員我這也是要符合一個建國剛才說的例子因為事實上我最近在海口的照很多漁民是在跟我反映說最近好像老農津貼是不是有在討論要提高那這一些老漁民就是在84年之後才退休的漁民就說我們都沒有老農津貼可以領"},{"start":4556.773,"end":4577.239,"text":"一直叫做老余津貼啦他們就是說因為這個是有一個落差那我就反問他一句話說那我問你喔這樣你會想要把你的肥寶變成這個農民退休租金嗎他沒辦法他說他也是沒辦法我就說對啊所以這樣你就知道基本上漁保還是比農保好啊"},{"start":4578.494,"end":4601.368,"text":"所以他们心里很清楚只是他们看到别的制度在调整的时候他们心里会有这个觉得相对剥夺感可是他还是知道余宝比农保好那我要跟农业部呼吁的就是说那余宝比农保好他除了说他的退休制度是比照老保之外他还有政府的提拨跟他的负担额就是2比8"},{"start":4602.469,"end":4630.011,"text":"所以我们在整个制度思考的时候我希望农业部你们应该还是要站在怎样去整病让这一些属于农业部应该要纳管的这一些农林渔牧这一些人民让他们可以在同样一个保险同样一个退休制度享受同样的福利而不是说让他们在很多这个退休保险的选择上他们在那边逼狗"},{"start":4630.95,"end":4658.832,"text":"一有比較基本上對政府都不是好事所以我還是在呼籲然後剛剛有講的事實上包括這些軍人退休一次退那甚至也有陸續有聽到一些勞工他當年是領一次退的他在一次退之後他現在是沒有辦法有任何保險縱使他從事農業他還是沒辦法進入這個農業的這個投保事實上我覺得農業部還是把這整塊"},{"start":4659.472,"end":4684.706,"text":"都來思考一下是比較的妥善來 二次發言還有沒有我們的委員我想我先來做以下的一個宣告就是說因為我們的5案至18案目前還在復一期所以我們要在12月30號才會通過復一期"},{"start":4685.586,"end":4712.135,"text":"我們在這一次我們就把所有的案子將第7條還有附帶決議保留送黨團協商然後5案至18案我們並案一起協商那我們預定在1月2號早上9點進行協商我為什麼會先定時間因為剛剛有委員有要求我們要把相關的"},{"start":4713.123,"end":4732.634,"text":"这些所谓诱因把它调列示出来然后包括这个天花板这个天花板也就是农业部一直强调的天花板那目前所有的农民来处理这个农退的部分他们几乎都已经保到最高了"},{"start":4733.414,"end":4745.099,"text":"那当天外版没打开他们的退休保障会在哪里所以我觉得这个都是希望你们把所有你们现在了解的田园调查的资料"},{"start":4746.181,"end":4775.664,"text":"能够很清楚在1月2号我们协商的时候把它调列式出来然后方便我们整个协商的进行所以我们的目标就是要增加覆盖率这个目标很清楚保障农民的生活又可以增加覆盖率这是我们的目标所以我们今天的这个会议结论就这样子好来邱颖委员"},{"start":4778.066,"end":4803.998,"text":"主席不好意思這個謝謝您剛剛的裁示但我想請教一下在程序上面我們現在就今天的案子是保留要等待這個5到18案送進來之後就一起併案所以很顯然看得出來12月31號以前是來不及完成所有的協商程序那如果程序上是這樣的話明年1月沒有辦法"},{"start":4805.014,"end":4827.811,"text":"明年1月沒有辦法開始執行新的所謂的農退儲金制度嗎原來我想行政院的就是我們到時候我們最後結論的時候我們說追溯沒有提最後一條這個是我才要請教的這個程序上面的問題因為"},{"start":4829.997,"end":4850.675,"text":"我們到時候協商結論可以做結論就是說我們是不是回溯到這個從1月1號開始所以主席這個是我的主張我希望如果今年的12月31號以前來不及完成的話在我們到最後的協商的時候我們希望能夠附帶一個回溯條款能夠回溯到"},{"start":4851.596,"end":4865.538,"text":"從明年的1月1號開始起算因為我跟委員報告因為在條例裡面的第33條裡面本條例實行日期由行政院定之所以後面就由行政院這邊來定就可以了"},{"start":4868.687,"end":4890.559,"text":"我們就是用今天我們會做我們就是到時候我們在協商1月2號協商的時候我們今天整個案子都會出委員會送協商然後之後5案到18案一起並進來之後1月2號進行協商然後我們在協商的時候我們因為第33條30幾條"},{"start":4895.963,"end":4914.319,"text":"33條本條例實行日期由行政院定之33條實行的部分是由這日期是由行政院農業部行政院定之所以在我們所有委員的要求之下我們希望在我們1月2號通過協商然後可以回溯從1月1號開始這樣有沒有問題"},{"start":4921.528,"end":4932.472,"text":"我们就协商的时候做结论我们就协商的时候做结论只是说我今天跟我们所有的委员会做这样的报告那我们请宣读协商结论"},{"start":4934.352,"end":4951.082,"text":"宣讀協商結論第二條 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那麼一些現行做法這樣已經有了好那個警政署署長所以看起來就是主要是你們嘛"},{"start":219.977,"end":246.136,"text":"主要是警察 他不逃犯也是我們警察任務之一 對所以在這樣一個情形之下警察很忙啊真的很忙他也很難 他除非說碰到這個人了之後然後他去查他是不是通緝犯基本上是這樣 對不對碰到那個人"},{"start":247.362,"end":270.996,"text":"比如說他違規怎麼樣然後拿了他的身份證資料然後你們警察就去查他是不是通緝犯大概基本上是這樣所以我認為要加兩個機關要協調怎麼樣去精進最起碼人都要生活嘛"},{"start":272.327,"end":300.617,"text":"對不對人都要生活嘛最起碼這個金流對不對他要生活他要工作他最起碼是生活生活一定要錢嘛對不對所以這樣的一個情形之下要不要通報金融機構他要提款啊對不對那個保護部次長可以增加這個嗎"},{"start":302.102,"end":319.435,"text":"你不能全部讓警察去跟委員報告事實上我剛跟委員報告我們現在公開的查詢系統其實任何人他是公開的系統任何人他都可以去查詢那個金融機構的人不會主動不會主動去看嘛"},{"start":320.68,"end":347.842,"text":"是這樣啊 所以這個部分是一個是要去檢討精進的是 那這部分如果要包括旅館啊 民宿業之類的那可能要 刑訴送法要做一個特別的規範所以這個部分你們去檢討加強啦好 那個次長請回座警察同仁真的非常辛苦這個內政部"},{"start":349.821,"end":374.247,"text":"這個署長你要去欠你要去拜託部長去拜託請部長拜託左院長這個警察人員相關的預算要編列剛才你也提到要支持預算警察的預算就是要編列 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end":241.556,"text":"讓人家覺得說如果真的有衝突的時候其實他跟那個刀的長度是差不多的那我們也看到國外也有一些案例不管是日本美國日本或是歐洲等等的有用較長的這一些防範性的武器或者是制止的武器"},{"start":242.777,"end":259.674,"text":"我們有沒有考慮類似的這樣子的經濟這個是有我想就是要在第一次因為很多委員都問了就是說那個狀況是一個緊急而且是一個跟時間賽跑所以當時是路口有一個交通港"},{"start":260.654,"end":282.449,"text":"交通港是沒有佩戴槍支那一發這個訊息就通報那通報到線上去都是有帶槍的派出所是有要下班的也趕過去我覺得就是當然是這是我們這個是一個警察的這個第一時間的反應到未來可能要更加精進他應該是要領用裝備再去"},{"start":283.61,"end":297.806,"text":"那我覺得就是說很多的這個時間都是跟時間在做賽跑那當然領後專輩的時間會應該會延遲領後專輩大概超過兩三分鐘去可能他又犯了"},{"start":298.607,"end":312.218,"text":"你看那個時間他可能就本期現在提醒的是說我們你講的所謂領用裝備他可能是指的是槍支嘛那槍支就會在派出所或是在分局嘛是但本期現在講的是說我們不要到最後就陷入是說警察能不能領了槍支然後能不能在現場用槍因為這個可能又有更深像網路上這兩天也有在討論就是說為什麼警察到最後不敢用槍因為可能用槍之後如果說因為今天這個兇嫌"},{"start":323.106,"end":330.762,"text":"不會說不敢用槍啦對我知道我說如果說他今天真的用槍還要寫報告等等部分後續有一些反鎖但是請容許本席"},{"start":332.011,"end":356.751,"text":"提醒我們也看到有國外有很多這種重大的公共運輸場域的暴力攻擊衝突等等他其實是用譬如說比較長的武器包括說那個繩索等等的把他給制止或是說把他給絆倒讓他失去行動能力那其實兩三個人來配合兩三位有訓練有所有員警配合不要是一個單打獨鬥"},{"start":357.592,"end":376.312,"text":"那這樣子就可以拉開距離並且保護我們遠景的安全也可以迅速的制止那這一些裝備跟武器它就不也許就不僅是只能儲存在派出所或是分局它也許是重大的一些地方或是說甚至警車上面等等的它就可以有配置"},{"start":377.233,"end":403.79,"text":"那未來有沒有針對這部分能夠再做進一步的討論這個我們來嚴厲啦就是說對於可能就是比較密集或者人潮聚集的場所這一些的這個我們的警力配屬單位再加上這個配備上的一個配置因為我們希望讓遠景可以有安全的情況今天是真的沒事發生那如果說他是做困獸之鬥假設遠景在圍牆上就是在頂樓的時候他做困獸之鬥來攻擊遠景"},{"start":405.902,"end":432.704,"text":"以手電筒等等來講的話其實跟他距離是沒有優勢的本席是要提出這一句手電筒是當時在做照明的那我是說他員警手上的武器是沒有優勢跟他的距離是沒有優勢的本席還是在強調是說如果說有較長的武器能夠把他給絆倒把他給圍捕的話員警才會有優勢那最後還是一樣我想一分鐘再確認一下因為案件在"},{"start":434.209,"end":454.187,"text":"5點23分就已經有一位余先生他到時候不幸身亡那其實已經發生了命案了但到了6點34分這一個兇嫌才跑到這所謂的中山站跟這個南溪成品這邊那其實距離也算近他還是在那一個生活圈範圍裡面捷運站一兩站的一個距離"},{"start":454.907,"end":482.672,"text":"那本席想要講的是說其實不只是細胞簡訊因為5.23分已經發生可是我們還沒有掌握兇嫌等於說兇嫌是在逃他等於是逃犯那如果說我們有一個機制能夠讓周邊的民眾了解就是說有這樣的一個在潮的危險人物那會不會讓當6點34分當民眾看到他在馬路上有異樣的時候大家就多一份警覺"},{"start":483.86,"end":493.156,"text":"不然其實很多人都講到是說當6點34分在那個中山站南溪成品前面的馬路上他在丟擲煙霧彈的時候有人以為是拍電影"},{"start":497.569,"end":525.386,"text":"對不對可是5點23分已經發生命案了如果說沒有5點23分的命案的話那也許大家不知道他是突然出現但本席現在提到的是說5點23分已經發生命案那如果說那周邊的民眾有辦法知道說現在有一個極端危險的人正在逃脫請大家密切注意互相提醒周邊發生可疑的人事物請一定馬上通報警方那是不是可能在6點34分"},{"start":526.927,"end":544.534,"text":"當他再出現在中山捷運站的時候民眾看到可能會多一份警覺就不會以為他是拍電影而是就會自然聯想到說是不是有可能這就是兇險這一個部分未來可以做什麼樣的加強那我們對於這個部分如果有更正確的信息應該可以嚴厲來辦理"},{"start":547.27,"end":572.33,"text":"署長因為本席要提醒的是當天本席在新北市跑行程也是看變成是說看社群看這些推播的新聞但是都沒有辦法了解事實的全貌而且到底他有沒有被逮捕或說現在情況怎麼樣不明但如果說在那周邊的民眾能夠有更警覺的一個訊息那也許大家會多一份警覺你可以同意嗎"},{"start":574.034,"end":584.89,"text":"我想就是說未來在訊息的這個部分要更正確讓我們更省心嚴厲來做一個處理好 感謝本席三個提問 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17139","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17139","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685c22d0fafdfecfd60bdae56b7a60aa52c3fa04411479d882a15022a2c586e59645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：壹、繼續審查\n一、行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二、委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n四、委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n五、委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n六、委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n七、委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n八、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n九、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十、委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十一、委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十二、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十三、委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十四、委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十五、委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十六、委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十七、委員游顥等17人擬具「兒童托育多元服務法草案」案。\n十八、委員范雲等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十九、委員李彥秀等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十一、委員張雅琳等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十二、委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等26人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十四、委員陳菁徽等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十五、委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十六、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十七、委員劉建國等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十八、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十九、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n貳、審查\n一、委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n【第貳一案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-22T08:31:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-22T17:35:00+08:00","duration":32633,"影片長度":"09:03:53","委員發言時間":"08:31:07 - 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出席委員人數5人 已組法定人數請主席宣布開會"},{"start":1804.448,"end":1829.99,"text":"現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第四會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十七次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一十四年十二月十八日星期四九時三分至十一時二十五分地點群憲樓八零一會議室出席委員盧委員憲一等十五人列席委員郭委員國文等八人列席官員勞動部部長洪森漢等相關人員主席廖兆吉委員韋祥"},{"start":1830.75,"end":1849.977,"text":"報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項審查及繼續審查勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案共計三十八案本次會議經委員林月琴 王振旭及郭國文說明提案指去並進行廣泛討論委員陳金輝發言暨有委員提出修正動議三案決議"},{"start":1851.818,"end":1859.023,"text":"勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案等38案審查完均內容如審查結果並按你據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論時由廖兆及委員委想補充說明不需交黨團協商審查結果第69條照行政院提案通過"},{"start":1869.17,"end":1892.218,"text":"第二十九條 照委員劉建國 王振旭等三人所提修正動議通過 第六十六條 照行政院提案及委員林月琴 王振旭 廖偉祥 蘇清泉 林淑芬王育敏 陳昭之及羅廷維等八人所提修正動議修正通過維持現行條文第三十條 第五十八條 第五十九條 第六十三條 第六十七條及第七十四條之二通過附帶決議二項 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1896.704,"end":1911.255,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處主席有關上次這次會議記錄裡面有關於立法說明的部分並沒有明列在這邊是不是請主席追加宣布將立法說明也能夠載入謝謝補充宣告有關勞動部提供的立法說明委員們如果有意見我們就放入審查報告列入公報記錄"},{"start":1928.966,"end":1946.811,"text":"那本日會議議程為繼續審查行政院函請審議委員分別凝聚的兒童托育服務法草案等二十九案審查委員張家俊等十九人凝聚兒童托育服務法草草案首先我們介紹在場委員陳昭之委員王振旭委員"},{"start":1959.474,"end":1985.877,"text":"以及列席官員 衛生福利部石崇良部長社會及家庭署周道軍署長法規會陳信成參事保護服務師張靖倫專委醫治師李巧林科長國民健康署婦幼健康組張英純檢任激政"},{"start":1987.942,"end":2013.029,"text":"內政部護政司蘇志萌檢論視察警政署防治署王育俊專員消防署救災救護署簡育淳專委國土管理署建築管理署葉先鋒專員"},{"start":2015.758,"end":2041.349,"text":"財政部國有財產署張翠芳副組長教育部國民及學前教育署郭姿穎副組長法務部汪南軍參事經濟部人事處鄧惠怡專委勞動部勞動扶植退休師李娟鳳專委"},{"start":2045.315,"end":2071.408,"text":"勞動條件及就業平等師楊怡婷科長勞動關係師許瓊月專員金融監督管理委員會保險局王啟華副組長援助民族委員會社會福利處洪林副處長行政院人事行政總處給予福利處謝艾倫專委"},{"start":2076.178,"end":2093.835,"text":"個人資料保護委員會籌備處法制事務組陳錦怡科長先做以下說明本委員會先前已就兒童托育服務法草案等29案進行第二輪審查到39條經決議尚未審查完略令則其繼續審查"},{"start":2098.721,"end":2107.257,"text":"現在就第二輪上位審查之保留條文接續審查每條條文先請行政單位說明接著再請委員表示意見而托法"},{"start":2111.038,"end":2134.938,"text":"第二輪上次審查即已通過含不予採納二十二條章次乃續保留者九條 九條次等本日繼續第二輪審查至第四十二條開始審查四十二全部念"},{"start":2137.937,"end":2160.902,"text":"有形政院委員林月琴 委員何欣淳 委員黃潔 委員蔡玉怡委員李坤澄 委員張雅玲 委員吳麗華 委員王玉敏委員邱若驊 委員郭玉琴 委員鄭天才 委員王美惠委員吳啟明 委員劉建國 委員陳培宇 委員陳樹悅"},{"start":2162.262,"end":2165.103,"text":"等版本先請衛福部先做說明"},{"start":2191.886,"end":2215.577,"text":"行政院版第42條主要是規範針對原來第39條這個有所謂不得任用的托育人員不得任用的情形的部分那這個我們是搭配相關的條文原來我們在做層次化的處理一個是終身不得僱用那另外一個則是在本條則是規範1到4年他不可以去做任用這樣的規範"},{"start":2216.938,"end":2237.04,"text":"目前跟各委員中間的差異主要是林委員的提案的部分有提到是不是可以將它修正為一年到十年我們初步延期的建議是我們建議是否有可能照行政院原來的版本來做思考"},{"start":2237.941,"end":2261.398,"text":"那主要的理由大概有兩個第一個是參考跟現在幼兒教育法的部分立法結構可以比較一致那第二個是大概在一般社會民眾的通念上如果到時候可以五年到七年或者八年不得任用其實大概社會觀念上認為是非常嚴重的大概民眾的接受度可能也會有相關的顧慮我們建議是否可以維持現在行政院版的條文以上"},{"start":2265.576,"end":2284.384,"text":"而針對我的版本這部分前面有先行好溝通那我本人是同意維持就是我們行政院版本一到十年其他委員有沒有意見沒有那就按照行政院提案通過那接下來43條"},{"start":2291.229,"end":2292.451,"text":"抱歉接下來是45條請那個衛福部說明"},{"start":2297.234,"end":2323.801,"text":"接下來第45條的部分是針對托育機構的負責人有相關的這個違規的情勢的時候直轄室署管機關可以廢止這個托育機構的設立的規定那這個部分的話各委員的版本的部分主要是在差異的部分在於一個是黃捷委員有提案對於先前有提到在南部有縣市有一些比較這個"},{"start":2325.281,"end":2337.392,"text":"利用關西人的部分去設立的個案那可能有這個比較嚴重的可能有利用人頭去設立的這樣子的情況那我們也建議這個部分的話另外"},{"start":2340.982,"end":2362.19,"text":"林淑芬委員和陳培宇委員的部分則是對於我們現在在於這個違規的行為在處罰的懲處的部分除了可以去做廢止之外那是可以並可以訓練其交叉更換縣市的負責人那就這個部分的話我們就有一個建議的版本的條文那主要的建議是"},{"start":2365.171,"end":2375.357,"text":"已經有提供給委員並且有投影在現在的投影幕上那我們會建議這個部分是不是可以用到第一個是"},{"start":2380.441,"end":2407.925,"text":"他在處理的部分的話我們會建議是不是可以去第一個是在有一個最嚴重的情形的話就是分層次的是第一項我們會建議開廢止他的設立許可第二項稍微這個有一定的情況的時候則是限期令他更換負責人那另外也參考那個林淑芬委員和陳培鈺委員的提案的版本我們在第三項把"},{"start":2408.425,"end":2432.279,"text":"居家托育服務中心相關的人員也一併納入規範以上說明委員沒有意見沒有意見這個原因就是因為那個居多服務中心簽契約的時候都是跟這個受委辦單位訂定勞動契約所以只是把他講的法律上講得更清楚而已好可以那其他委員"},{"start":2437.045,"end":2445.803,"text":"沒有的話 我們就依行政院林淑芬委員提案修正通過那接續46條 請衛福部說明"},{"start":2448.663,"end":2476.062,"text":"行政院版草案第46條的部分和委員主要的不同在於第一個是林淑芬委員和陳佩玉委員的部分是建議規範的對象是否能夠增列居家托育服務中心的工作人員一併納入規範那第二個是在於46條的第一項的部分在發生違規案件的時候行政院版原來的條文是在兩個工作日內進行處理那這個部分的話"},{"start":2479.284,"end":2493.273,"text":"各委員的部分有的委員在是不是兩天內進行處理的文字是否夠清跟是否夠清楚那我們現在也有一個建議的文字那主要的是第一個是將林淑芬委員的這個"},{"start":2494.534,"end":2510.602,"text":"建議的部分將托育服務中心已經納入規範了那第二個在第一項最後我們還是建議是否可以用這個兩個工作日內進行處理這樣子的文字我們就來做來提供委員討論以上"},{"start":2513.332,"end":2537.302,"text":"委員有沒有意見我再說明一下就是本來就是說因為兩天內就馬上啟動調查其實在實務上是不可能的因為你還要去找調查委員光是兩天去找都不夠所以應該是進行就兩天以內馬上就進行處理那這個當然要只要找好調查委員以後才能夠正式調查嘛那進行處理是可以接受的"},{"start":2537.842,"end":2546.69,"text":"那我們還有一個修正建議就是說我們希望這些地方主管機關為了審議前項違法事件之調查的時候應該是設審議小組那我們是希望審議小組如有必要應該把一些相關的人放進來譬如說要包含"},{"start":2562.865,"end":2587.535,"text":"主管機關代表幼兒保育或兒童福利專家法律專家托育服務團體代表勞工權益促進團體代表居托人員代表托育人員代表家長代表婦女團體代表就是其審議小組的組成調查小組的組成成員的資格限制這個我們在授權給地方政府但是我們在法裡面要明定這些代表"},{"start":2588.115,"end":2605.748,"text":"是因為我們希望至少要有這一些人來代表這樣子再來就是說這個審議小組如果必要時得邀請其他相關學者專家或專科醫師醫事人員提供專業意見這樣應該也要放進來比較具體"},{"start":2609.971,"end":2623.783,"text":"第一個就是說要有專業人員的專業意見要放要得邀請他們來提供那另外審議小組的成員代表應該要有我剛才所念的那一些代表這樣子是不是再增加這兩個概念進來法理面明定"},{"start":2635.595,"end":2662.65,"text":"那孫委員已經講完因為審議小組的成員是重要的核心事項應該要以法律定制我們不要再像以前就說我們就交給他們去決定成員的代表性要放誰我們是希望可以放進來那得邀請專業專科醫師學者專家醫事人員提供專業意見這個能也放進來"},{"start":2665.253,"end":2679.784,"text":"代表我們對於他們的這個這個重視因為這個是很核心的得啦沈亦時如果必要得邀請這樣子也是有彈性的我們的版本裡面應該有請是不是能夠請大家最後兩項的文字參採我們的"},{"start":2700.1,"end":2705.773,"text":"對啊就是這個這個就是我們的版本那我這邊先那個因為"},{"start":2706.914,"end":2728.027,"text":"之前台北市發生了幾個案子事實上是所以你這邊寫直接派員我有點有疑慮要去調查有時候為什麼不成案你派的那個人非常的重要因為曾經有派過那個才到職的約聘僱才兩個月的人要去作為去認定說要不要去啟動調查這是有風險的所以才會有"},{"start":2729.687,"end":2744.636,"text":"培洛米達案到第二年發生這麼嚴重那為什麼你這邊還是直接派員 或者我就不知道派誰 或者又一個貨組成調查小組我不知道就是說 今天當然過去事實上是有人 可是你現在採刑的事實上當初這個"},{"start":2747.958,"end":2770.729,"text":"本來就本來是希望說比照幼照法那樣子的一個方式可是重點是現在人家已經發生疑慮的時候你們還是用這種方式因為我認為直接派員調查這個資格跟誰或者是一些認定應該要有授權執法這是第一項第二個是針對於審議小組的組成的我認為後邊不是只有組成應該"},{"start":2771.829,"end":2792.101,"text":"比照我的版本是有寫資格頓耗人數及其他相關事項的辦法來授權可是我不要不贊成你前面寫的就是直接派那個派誰我就說就已經是在前年發生的就直接派約評估影響這麼多孩子的權益怎麼可能還在允許說"},{"start":2792.622,"end":2802.139,"text":"我們直接派員讓地方政府這樣子做所以這個我是完全不能接受不能統一所以我請衛福部做說明 針對我跟淑芬委員的意見"},{"start":2804,"end":2827.883,"text":"跟兩位委員的意見我們大概做一個簡單的說明為什麼我們現在在第二項的部分是不是還是維持一個是直接派員或組成調查小組畢竟在這個受理到調查受理到違法事件的時候其實在受理的第一時間的時候其實對於案情的嚴重程度"},{"start":2828.403,"end":2849.702,"text":"其實在判斷上面有的時候其實並不是沒有辦法馬上知道案情也許是很輕也許到非常重那事實上檢舉進來這類違法案件的時候也有一些其實是非常輕微不見得到一定需要每一個案子都需要啟動調查所以在第二項的時候其實我們是留給縣市政府一個這樣子的空間其實原意只是這樣子"},{"start":2850.882,"end":2877.247,"text":"當然絕對印象概念上並不是希望說嚴重的案子但是可以用比較輕的方式去調查我們在立法上面也沒有這樣的意思那第二個是針對這個調查小組的成員的部分我們是覺得說確實是大家都會很關心這個調查成員的組成那如果是這樣子的話我們會建議在這個條我們覺得是可以在這個"},{"start":2878.968,"end":2893.265,"text":"條文的倒數第二項的部分因為現行的倒數第二項直轄市縣市主管機關要去因涉審議小組那我們是不是可以在這邊這個後面就甄列一項"},{"start":2894.546,"end":2909.894,"text":"那這個前項的這個小組的時候就應該要委員這個委員就應該要包括主管機關代表托育或兒童福利相關團體代表法律專家托育專業"},{"start":2911.074,"end":2940.394,"text":"服務或其他代表其他服務人員代表家長團體代表及相關領域專家學者我們就把這個範圍的部分框出來那最後一項就參照林耀勤委員的提案提議我們就在最後包括授權的事項包括人數組成及其他相關事項把人數的部分也一併納進來先做以上的說明"},{"start":2942.856,"end":2962.955,"text":"你還是沒有解決我剛剛講的問題的確有時候有些案子是輕案有些事實上是重案可是我說當初找一個約聘僱才來到職兩個月他過去沒有這樣的經驗去做調查那你讓地方這樣做不是就是誤判嗎才會隔年造成這麼多孩子傷害現在就是說"},{"start":2964.016,"end":2988.803,"text":"我覺得要去防堵已經有發生過的事情那你怎麼現在我還在跟你講這件事情你還是覺得說對有些親愛可是今天你坐任讓地方政府因為直接派員就有可能引發這樣的狀況就是說我直接派員我派閱評顧那你對我能怎麼辦那最後呢影響的是誰今天是39個孩子受害一本來可以處理的好好的話不會有隔年39個孩子人家幼兒園幼照房那邊已經出現這樣問題我們還直接這樣做"},{"start":2991.024,"end":3007.72,"text":"我覺得依法都講不過去這不會是保護孩子最佳利益所以我講的是這個所以我要請你們這邊是要去處理因為我版本沒有寫這個你們要直接否則就是還有一種就是說我從神醫小組裡邊去派神醫小組裡邊的其中一個成員"},{"start":3008.419,"end":3027.766,"text":"因為不用大陣仗的開會可是不會是去派一個約聘僱才倒子兩個月的人去做這樣子這麼嚴重的調查案他本來就當初爸爸去報案的時候就是已經是那種定時上是有性侵之餘的結果最後是派一個約聘僱這個怎麼會讓社會能接受呢委員我來說明一下"},{"start":3029.4,"end":3056.559,"text":"這個確實委員會擔心說這些人的經驗不足會造成的倒不是說他是什麼約聘顧或什麼我覺得我們是不是把它調整應指派專責人員就表示他是長期負責這個工作的他比較有經驗而不是隨便大家用輪的隨便指派用指派專責人員或組成調查小組是不是改成文字用這樣"},{"start":3060.051,"end":3082.386,"text":"部長 這專責人員也要來看過往 過去的確在各縣市政府的執行狀況根本就是一個很大的問題今天以台北市來講12個行政區 12個社福中心12個社福中心比一個社福中心如果三個人 36個人36個人他到底有沒有經驗他有時候可能會被"},{"start":3083.166,"end":3102.059,"text":"我今天是這個社福中心我可能到半年甚至四五年從來都沒派過案可是今天剛好在我士林區那我被派案我算不算專責人員我有沒有這個能力我有沒有受過這個訓練所以為什麼過去我們自己在看那時候我們在民間團體常常看為什麼常常不懲案"},{"start":3103.34,"end":3131.934,"text":"我覺得起心動念的那個人非常的重要因為他決定了懲不懲案過去憲憑大概幾乎只要有風吹草動都懲案可是不當對待的時候不見得有那更何況各地方政府做的方式事實上是不一樣的因為過去社福中心這樣做的確家內的不當對待比較多可是當家外越來越多的時候你再用這種方式有時候就是還是妨礙到兒少的權益所在所以這個有沒有去考慮到因為"},{"start":3134.017,"end":3147.878,"text":"我只是很粗淺的用台北市這樣算就有36個人更何況不是只有一個社福中心只有三個人那各縣市的做法是不太一樣的那你到底這個專責人員到底又是誰"},{"start":3149.885,"end":3173.962,"text":"這樣 委員是不是這樣就是大家關心的當然這個人員的能力啦 經驗啦那是不是我們把它寫在授權法規裡面應受的訓練或是資格要件我們寫在授權法規來授權讓我們來討論這樣前面就是他要專責人員啦至於說這個專責人員是什麼樣的人那在我們後面最後一項的授權法規一併去訂"},{"start":3176.55,"end":3185.268,"text":"一項不是只有審議小組 包含專職人員那個 王振旭委員"},{"start":3192.51,"end":3207.725,"text":"根據剛剛的討論我看那個第二項有關於要直接指派專責人員或組成調查小組進行調查這個其實是月群委員一直很關心因為如果你有貨的話那這個機制怎麼啟動"},{"start":3212.214,"end":3230.522,"text":"看起來兩個都可以可是可是如果是不同的程度的時候誰來決定這個複雜程度或者是嚴重程度是由誰來決定這部分可能要再說明不然的話到時候結果另外人又不同的意見以上"},{"start":3237.035,"end":3264.823,"text":"先林淑芬委員之後再陳昭芝委員好剛才這個署長還是沒有處理到我們的部分就是說前向的審議小組剛剛講了你們講的是不是就我們的版本你們覺得哪個不用這樣講否則的話我也覺得說為什麼拿掉我們的婦女團體代表那或者是說為什麼這個勞工權益促進團體代表不需要"},{"start":3266.584,"end":3284.693,"text":"這樣子 那另外就是說我們一直在講說省議室如有必要得邀請學者專家或專科醫師醫事人員提供專業意見這個一定要入法他才依法有據否則他沒有入法的時候他去邀請來了那他的專業意見他要能夠成為這個調查證據嗎或者調查過程當中一定會被參採嗎"},{"start":3293.698,"end":3318.055,"text":"所以我的意思是說其實我們法律裡面明定了要邀請必要時得邀請他們來參加提供專業的意見那他們提供的專業意見理所當然就成為這個審議的時候或是調查的時候最重要的核心所以這一個東西是不能免的那我就這兩個問題其他我就沒意見"},{"start":3319.878,"end":3329.686,"text":"好那請陳昭志委主席謝謝主席主席這個我有一個名詞就是說因於兩個工作之內進行處理那請問進行處理這個清楚嗎就進行處理什麼時候再算是進行處理"},{"start":3336.272,"end":3359.152,"text":"因為我看到說明是有寫一個程序那也許這個地方進行處理第二個這個剛剛部長談的這個專責人員那這個因為專責人員他應該只是去蒐集資料因為後面有審議小組這個非常類似那個譬如說藥害救濟的他們的做法要有這個工作人員先去找應該要具備的資料然後最後交由審議小組來判斷評定"},{"start":3362.495,"end":3377.406,"text":"那所以這個專責人員的話他就是說不管在執法什麼地方規定這個專責人員他必須要收集到哪些資料就是他開始做那後面那個如果大家擔心我覺得那個貨就是改成病"},{"start":3378.266,"end":3405.223,"text":"就是專責人員他開始去收集資料因為審議人員未必要到現場去收集資料那審議人員他就會根據或是要求更多的資料他是同時可以是同時進行的有人去做然後這個組已經開始動了開始就是折成這個專責人員他需要補足哪些資料謝謝就說我有一個處理那個定義清不清楚那專責人員要做哪些事情其實可以去明定他要做但第三個就可以把貨改成病謝謝"},{"start":3406.704,"end":3433.614,"text":"好請那個黃秀芳委員其實剛剛那個月勤委員有特別提到就是說這一個直接派員我覺得應該也是要再寫得更清楚一點就是說像這樣的一個調查應該是讓比較有經驗的人來處理那另外就是說我們看到這個審議小組就是審議時有必要得邀請"},{"start":3434.974,"end":3461.236,"text":"剛剛淑芬委員有特別提到就是說學者專家或專科醫師或醫事人員提供專業意見那因為這只是一個得邀請不一定是必要所以對所以有彈性我覺得說應該把它列進去應該也不會有什麼樣的有什麼樣的影響因為畢竟孩子的事情我覺得我們應該要更謹慎好謝謝林淑芬委員"},{"start":3463.806,"end":3488.381,"text":"這個專責人員可能會有一點還需要很明確的定義要講清楚在這裡因為個縣市對於不當對待的行為人這個誰是專責人員不當對待的行為人是誰他的專責人員是不一樣的譬如說家長打小孩台北市是社福中心"},{"start":3489.201,"end":3516.732,"text":"那保姆打小孩是婦幼科這個是台北市所以你在專責人員上面可能各地方政府管理的規範的可能不是很一樣事權並沒有那麼統一所以你們可能還要再想一想專責人員要怎麼定義要怎麼寫清楚啦要怎麼寫清楚每一管制排出來都不一樣"},{"start":3518.994,"end":3545.457,"text":"所以衛福部要不要說明不過在講之前所以剛剛所任委員也在問你們那個人是誰就是所謂的審議小組可是我雖然只寫資格頓耗人數可是事實上人數當然未來如果我們授權執法我覺得應該去還要考慮到一個比例現在幼照法走在前面已經有很多問題發生他們有在做去調整"},{"start":3545.937,"end":3570.379,"text":"可是現在如果這邊又還是如果我們寫人數沒有講到比例的話又讓地方政府自己亂做為什麼我這樣講因為幼照法下來之後像認定委員會怎麼會是七個都是政府部門那五個是幼教單位然後呢兒少團體兒少的福利的代表是零人"},{"start":3571.36,"end":3595.195,"text":"那難怪幾乎都不會成案那台北呢事實上是七個都是幼教然後呢主席是不是照我們的看到有什麼困難沒有困難的話所以我的意思是說你如果沒有去看那個比例的話未來也是一個問題你們訂了一個大原則最後呢地方政府執行的時候最後還是讓地方政府影響到孩子的一個權益因為"},{"start":3596.364,"end":3621.843,"text":"這個比例上就不對等 我覺得應該是說今天主張老師權益的 主張孩子權益的都應該要各辦 而不是忽略掉孩子權益 幾乎我們去 那時候我們去看六都就會有這種狀況 所以等於也是請你們也來回應說 那如果這樣的問題是要用人數比例嗎 就先定資格然後人數比例 還是說你們真的要執法 執法那到時候執法又不見得通過這邊"},{"start":3623.137,"end":3646.818,"text":"那所以請衛福部一併回答我們剛剛這幾位委員但是我不贊成放在執法我們就是要在這裡明定法律明定因為他他的核心這個是審議小組不是調查小組這已經是調查完以後的審議了對 任定委員會右照法任定委員會也就是審議小組的功能所在所以我們很在意因為他最後決定要不要裁處"},{"start":3647.574,"end":3672.669,"text":"因為我過去參與就很常事實上因為這樣比例下根本就不裁處因為會投票 投票的結果因為今天只有兩個兒少團體的代表然後七個事實上是幼教的那當然比例上 甚至政府部門有五個怎麼會投票會成功呢其實換個角度來想 這個人一小組的話你全部都是官方代表 行政代表你要扛起所有的責任也不見得對行政部門是好的啊那我們把各個領域的人代表"},{"start":3673.169,"end":3698.477,"text":"其實連托育人員代表也都要放進來因為會試射到他們的勞動權益所以你讓托育人員的代表出來家長代表婦女團體代表居托人員的代表這些人都進來的話事實上比較多元然後比較關照得到你也不用扛起全部的責任然後他在審議的時候也比較持平一點可以各個領域都關照得到的看待請會府部做說明"},{"start":3704.353,"end":3724.967,"text":"各委員剛才所提到的部分我們大概第一個是針對這個未來人員的部分的話如果照我們剛才的建議我們會建議說是否可能因為他對於將來這些即使是專責人員的資格然後我們也會把他放到授權的事項裡面"},{"start":3726.008,"end":3753.329,"text":"所以各縣市的部分他將來這一類的人員當然就是根據這樣的資格然後去做相關的訓練所以他是可以被列管的所以他的資格可以有一定程度的要求那這邊先做一個說明所以第二個是剛才淑芬委員所提到的就是確實是現在對於一些這種對如果是虐兒的事件家內跟家外現在多數的縣市政府"},{"start":3753.889,"end":3777.962,"text":"其實處理的機制如果是家外大概比較會在家房中心家內的話大概會在兒少大概會在婦幼科或者是兒少科大概會有這樣子的一個處理所以確實現在會有相關的不同但是因為托育的機構將來都會統一在家外其實各縣市目前大概在處理上它的處理機制大體上都已經有一定程度的固定"},{"start":3778.743,"end":3792.78,"text":"第三個就是對於未來這個不管叫做調查小組還是審議小組他的成員的部分我們現在建議的條文裡面大體上絕大多數的成員都參照了林淑芬委員的這個建議"},{"start":3794.262,"end":3814.005,"text":"我們現在主要是針對勞權跟副團的部分我們現在沒有特別去納進來主要的思考是第一個因為未來是各縣市通通都要訂所以除了本島的縣市包括離島的縣市都要訂所以在籌組委員的時候我們也考慮到每個縣市在籌組的難易度"},{"start":3815.226,"end":3843.681,"text":"那第二個是我們也是覺得是不是在這個因為他審議的基本上都是一些主要都是針對這個違法的事件所以尤其是針對適不適合去擔任工作人員的事件我們會建議是不是把這樣成員的資格就比較聚焦在這個兒童的安全的比較偏向兒童安全的部分去做這樣的思考那這個是這樣的一個建議那最後一個是淑芬委員有提到的是"},{"start":3844.441,"end":3870.542,"text":"有關是不是在審議的時候納進專家學者或者是相關的專科醫師這個概念我們是完全認同的只是因為我們是看到說我們現在的條文在最後一項的調查程序跟審議相關的辦法在裡面那這個部分我們原來是覺得這個部分因為它是一個比較偏向一個列席跟提供專業意見的性質我們會覺得這個是不是在未來授權的辦法裡面來做統一的規範"},{"start":3871.443,"end":3897.371,"text":"但是這個概念基本上我們是完全認同的以上說明署長這邊你好像還是沒有講清楚有一個剛剛署分委員提的一個很重要的點因為過去幼兒園的確它的一個大概就是教育局 責成教育局去做可是現在如果說你的保母跟托嬰中心是分屬兩軌不同的一個是以後未來統一是"},{"start":3897.984,"end":3909.953,"text":"兒托科來做處理嗎 否則過去的話家內的的確事實上是家防中心 可是家外的真的是保母是在我們的兒托 可是在於"},{"start":3911.3,"end":3933.582,"text":"機構的話就變成到社福中心會不會有 有的縣市真的是執行兩軌的那種狀態裡面那你這個專責人員就會很多元那你是未來一定會整併到全部整併到兒托科嗎因為這部分 剛剛淑芬我也有講那個現況可是我沒有聽到你有回來是以後未來會直接整併到兒托科當然我們就覺得這個專責人員就比較沒有疑慮"},{"start":3934.878,"end":3949.79,"text":"因為教育局他就是直接就是教育局的人只是我說那時候我說派一個完全沒有經驗只有兩個月的一個月聘顧問完全沒有經驗的人那現在可是現在你分屬不同的單位的時候這以後也會訓練這樣的專責人員嗎想問的是這個"},{"start":3954.017,"end":3967.357,"text":"跟我們報告其實現在對於在托育機構的管理其實各縣市他的這個在縣市政府層級律定的管理機關其實每個縣市稍微會有一些不一樣確實是這樣"},{"start":3969.219,"end":3993.312,"text":"但是我們這個部分因為有地方制度法的關係基本上我們會尊重地方制度法對於權限的設計但是在這個在兒童法這個條文設計之後地方政府只要是處理這一類事件的人我們不會管他是在地方政府的哪一個部門工作而是將他只要負責這項調查工作的人我們會將他來做調訓來做列管"},{"start":3993.792,"end":4020.971,"text":"所以我們會聚焦在工作人員的資格和經驗以及能力的訓練那但是在這邊其實確實是必須跟委員說明的是地方政府的部分他其實每一個縣市政府不管是在兒少或者是在長照或者其他的社福領域部分目前各縣市他們的這個機關的設計其實在多元性上面其實慢慢都會有地方政府自己的一些規範跟想法"},{"start":4021.431,"end":4050.175,"text":"那在地方制度法的架構底下其實一定的程度我們大概沒有辦法要求地方政府一定必須怎麼設但是我們會對人員的資格的部分我們會來做比較嚴格的管理大概先做這樣的說明 謝謝想還是要就教因為我覺得這題要討論清楚因為已經是在幼照法之後再修然後引發了這麼多的問題我們一定要在那個兒托法再去避免因為這事實上是一個法律上要去保障孩子的最佳利益"},{"start":4050.515,"end":4063.565,"text":"的時候要去考量的為什麼這樣講因為你你如果跟他提這樣子的話還是沒有解決說對沒有錯假設這個人受過訓我三年前受過訓為什麼三年前我"},{"start":4064.679,"end":4086.106,"text":"今天36個人不見得我每一個區剛好發生這種不當對待那我三年受過訓有沒有符合你們的資格可是我很多東西我沒有處理的經驗我去判讀所以過去我們看家內家外的時候為什麼家外不會成案因為過去如果社工一直在看家內的時候他的確會以家內的標準去看家外的"},{"start":4086.485,"end":4105.238,"text":"那樣的一個狀態所以後來我們才會建議說家外家內的應該要分流不要併在一起那現在好家外要分流可是如果人還是用我們的社福中心的人然後另外一個他不見得每一次大概會碰到家外他搞不好五年才碰到一次那因為"},{"start":4106.331,"end":4133.273,"text":"這個我這個區就是剛好我五年才碰到一次甚至裡面有這麼多人輪的話你怎麼去解決這個問題所以我覺得把它討論清楚以防堵未來的那個狀況我們不能再向過去一直不斷的讓悲劇發生所以才會希望說你們要不要充分的去確定各縣市的狀況然後你們要寫出比較符合我們現在至少我不知道能不能反而百分之百可是已經有發生過的事情不可以讓它再發生"},{"start":4135.034,"end":4155.479,"text":"那個淑芬委員剛剛這樣子我在講這個審議小組的成員的代表性好了因為我們要有婦女團體不然的話遇到有性別事件的時候我們是希望要有性別的觀點這個是很重要的另外"},{"start":4156.659,"end":4177.168,"text":"勞工權益促進團體代表或許大家聽起來有點奇怪可是我也不堅持是因為其實有時候不當對待跟那個他的勞動條件或者是照顧比例或者是說工時可能也會有一點相關在這種狀況裡面我們這裡有托育人員代表居托人員代表"},{"start":4178.009,"end":4195.11,"text":"勉强是可以这个代表因为这个就他们关系自己的劳动权益上的从劳动权益观点去关照到整个事件的发生这样子或许可以但是妇女团体代表我是坚持一定要放进去了"},{"start":4196.775,"end":4225.667,"text":"因為會有差異的是有的是性別事件加上不當對待就變成說授訓裡面要有性別事件相關的這個不是我是說要婦女團體代表要有婦女團體代表我覺得放上去應該沒有問題至少應該要有那因為有拘托人員代表按托育人員代表所以我們勞工權益促進這個代表我就不堅持"},{"start":4242.615,"end":4259.942,"text":"在機關回應之前我想問一下托育或兒童福利相關團體代表這是什麼因為後面又有托育專業服務那意思是說今天那兒童權益的這部分是誰來把關"},{"start":4261.397,"end":4277.143,"text":"因為托育或兒童福利代表然後托育專業服務那幾乎都是現場的或者是托育的專業或是托育的團體或者是托育相關科系的老師那兒童福利呢"},{"start":4278.806,"end":4308.426,"text":"我覺得幾乎都不見了這樣的寫法反而是 托育可能寫的太多次了是不是主管機關代表兒童福利相關團體代表法律專家托育專業服務或其他服務家長團體代表其實為什麼我們的不行呢所以我是說我們勞工權益代表可以拿掉照我們的版本居托人員代表托育人員代表家長代表兒童福利或是幼兒保育的福利的代表"},{"start":4309.226,"end":4328.955,"text":"幼兒保育或兒童福利為什麼不能照我們的老實說我們的就是這樣行政代表嘛幼兒保育或者是兒童福利的專家代表法律專家再來就是托育服務團體代表居托人員托育人員代表家長代表婦女團體代表托育的專家也是要的啦"},{"start":4338.047,"end":4352.778,"text":"好我們請王玉敏委員發言可不可以請主管機關說明一下因為如果按照原來46條這邊要去處理的這個審議小組是要處理疑似已經就是不適任或違法的事件對不對"},{"start":4353.619,"end":4376.267,"text":"所以這個可能大家要先釐清就是說這個小組的它的功能跟目的性在哪裡它並不是權益事件的審議它是一個違法已經涉及到不適合或違法事件那我覺得我們應該仔細去看就是說現行各縣市的處理針對這樣的一個違法事件它一定要的成員"},{"start":4377.327,"end":4405.738,"text":"就是說如果從不同角度一定要的成員是什麼因為如果按照原來蘇芬委員這個修正動議的寫法這個委員會的組成他的規模到底要有多大那現行的運作是不是有辦法做到這樣子另外一個就是他是不是應該要有這個實效性就每一個縣市的確有差異那現在的列舉是一定要有還是就是這些範圍之內可以去"},{"start":4406.498,"end":4426.663,"text":"你可能没有了解到我们的概念我们的概念是调查结果报告处调查结果出来了那可能要有审议这个结果的小组我们不是调查小组我们的架构是所以我说要理清嘛你是我们的架构我们的条文有写就是说"},{"start":4427.443,"end":4451.86,"text":"你去調查的時候你在兩天以內就要進行處理就要開始處理你要直接派員或是組成這個小組去進行調查那你的調查結果出來的時候要設一個審議小組去審查這個調查那我們說我們在講說那這個已經不是第一線的第一時間的調查了這個是審查調查結果的審議這樣子"},{"start":4454.85,"end":4469.766,"text":"所以调查跟审议的小组是不一样的我们这个是后面的阶段的所以应该不是时效性的问题了而是代表性而是说关照各种观点"},{"start":4471.576,"end":4494.635,"text":"是不是調查小組關照的觀點是不是足夠的那這樣的看法有沒有偏頗的偏頗在托育人員的有沒有偏頗到行政人員的還是偏頗到只看到兒童的沒有看到其他的因為可能會牽扯到工作權的剝奪可能會牽扯到行者可能會牽扯到其他的這個責任所以我們才是希望說你當然"},{"start":4495.834,"end":4507.2,"text":"就是要有一些代表性的人進去所以我才說這個誰是代表是核心的問題所以要不能夠授權給他們我們要放在法律裡面明定"},{"start":4510.97,"end":4534.807,"text":"那主管機關要不要說明一下就是他是第二層的就是調查報告出來之後再再架設一個審議小組然後再審議那這個在事務上的運作他大概要多久然後他的他是不是是在這個調查小組之上我覺得這個整個層級架構要理清清楚因為過去是調查小組那現在多了一個"},{"start":4535.828,"end":4553.369,"text":"審議小組到底他的成績到哪裡那他是不是可以推翻調查小組的規定然後他的那個並不是推翻調查小組的規定的調查我們是要決議這個個案的這個懲處是不是成立他的停止要幾年等等"},{"start":4554.19,"end":4580.724,"text":"就他處分要多重啊是這樣子我要講一下幼照法的確他前面先行調查調查之後呢當然調查小組因為他根據訪談跟影片看然後整個狀況裡面會形成一個建議是像最後會是到認定委員會去做認定那我們現在不叫做認定我們叫做審議小組那審議小組大概就是幼照法裡面的認定委員會的一個功能所在"},{"start":4581.916,"end":4609.551,"text":"那只是我不知道衛福部要不要去針對於剛剛淑芬委員還有我剛剛提的那個做說明是跟各位委員報告那目前在條文設計上面其實院版和各委員的版本在那個整個調查機制流程上設計是相近的也就是他是經過調查"},{"start":4611.352,"end":4639.919,"text":"調查完之後再送到審議小組審議所以他兩層機制確實是有分開但是對於這個審議小組的委員是要設計到多大或者要到多廣的範圍那淑恩委員這邊確實是有這個跟我們的建議這個範圍團體範圍是這個範圍寬窄有一些列出來的部分會有些不同那我們會我們原來的想法是比較單純就是確實是如同剛才像王委員所提到的"},{"start":4640.379,"end":4660.555,"text":"即使是在審議的階段是不是也是可以考慮要不要就是聚焦在處理違法事件的這樣的一個角度去設計這個審議小組的成員那淑芬委員的部分則是覺得說因為審議的部分是不是在審議階段需要納進更寬更多元的觀點來做這樣子的設計"},{"start":4662.957,"end":4679.409,"text":"我們當時會覺得是不是要聚焦其實如同剛才所報告的確實是我們也考慮到有一些地方政府的縣市因為這個將來都是地方政府要去組成但是每一個地方政府當地的資源確實是不是能夠"},{"start":4681.01,"end":4697.624,"text":"確實的組成到包含到這麼多類別的委員的部分其實尤其是在離島的地區的時候我們確實是有一些思考所以我們會建議我們原來會做這樣的一個我們會做這樣子的建議那也請委員來做參考以上"},{"start":4703.062,"end":4718.093,"text":"你講的後半段我不知道就是說我們講的居托人員的代表啦托育人員的代表啦你說這個是比較偏鄉或是我們這個不是以縣市為單位的嗎每一個縣市會找不到這樣的代表嗎第一個第二個"},{"start":4718.914,"end":4737.893,"text":"我們這不是在聚焦處理違法事件就是因為聚焦在處理你剛剛講說我們聚焦在處理違法事件所以我們讓他代表單純一點我們就處理違法事件可是什麼叫做處理違法事件處理違法事件你就是要去關照照整個違法的責任"},{"start":4738.973,"end":4766.407,"text":"他的责任是怎么造成他的成因怎么导致这个果所以你要关照的面向很多要有女性的观点的要有劳动的观点的要有儿童福利的观点的要有儿童权益家长的观点的所以我们才讲说这个东西很重要当然也有时候就是还必须要医事人员提供的专业的意见进来让大家参考所以在这种状况里面当然也要法律专家"},{"start":4767.367,"end":4792.633,"text":"那你們就說怕說組不起來我真的覺得以縣市為單位的話你會找不到幼兒保育或兒童福利專家嗎幼兒保育或兒童福利專家的話你全國性的去找來我想你可以開放這個要件沒有地方限於說台東縣政府只能請我台東縣的兒童福利專家沒有嘛法律專家也一定找得到嘛托育服務團體代表台東會找不到托育服務團體代表嗎"},{"start":4795.874,"end":4810.901,"text":"那再來就居托人員代表托育人員代表這個在台東會找不到嗎家長代表這個台東也一定有嗎那婦女團體代表你說會找不到或者是你可以找你可以開放找全國性的會是怎麼樣的呢"},{"start":4813.382,"end":4827,"text":"我了解 剛剛衛福部提的為什麼這樣講因為過去為什麼地方政府不找因為還是欠債經費如果要找到其他縣市的話他就要給付交通費有些縣市就是會乾脆不找我不是說這樣子 交通費會很多嗎"},{"start":4829.282,"end":4856.693,"text":"你開有時候案子多的話他交通費這些他考慮他可能會考慮到這個我倒是覺得當然我們還是以維護孩子權益該要列的人就是列不過我認為我是不是可是事實上沒有人是願意說我願意來服務的而不計較這些那個的嗎會找不到嗎真的說一定要交通費我才要去嗎不是交通費還有一個是時間如果是你說今天"},{"start":4857.893,"end":4879.716,"text":"台北跑到屏東去或是跑到台東這個我說我是在提到過去地方政府的困難不代表說地方政府可以說今天如果定下來不去做我只是提到有這個那我建議這一條是不是保留為什麼因為我認為如果沒有解決掉因為這個東西非常重要因為他"},{"start":4880.356,"end":4895.535,"text":"自為關鍵所以我覺得今天社交署應該去看教育部他們後來修改修改為什麼再去修改甚至後來認定委員會都要受訓才可以放到資料庫裡面人才資料庫為什麼因為過去沒有訓練的狀況即便律師"},{"start":4898.138,"end":4925.45,"text":"都不見得站在孩子權益上去思考這些因為過去律師他打官司的時候看問題看得非常的嚴重都會認為這還好就不會被認定所以後來為什麼教育部都要求認定委員會都要受訓在這樣狀況底下如果衛福部沒有充分掌握現在過往已經先起跑的幼照法產生了這麼多問題而且著著實實在這幾年也影響了孩子的權益這麼"},{"start":4926.95,"end":4952.266,"text":"嚴重那我認為應該不要在這時候討論你要想清楚是說去問然後還有根據我們剛剛提的東西去做解決這樣會比較完備因為修了法就是定下來當初就像教育部當初我們一直在跟他講說不要這樣修不要這樣修了最後呢這三年來到底孩子受到什麼影響很大的影響就跟之前就已經在修法的時候就已經警告不要這樣子調整"},{"start":4952.867,"end":4975.912,"text":"所以我還是不希望說今天如果我們又有這樣子沒有去根據過去往的狀況然後去修然後修出來的東西是不是妨害孩子的權利那所以我們的代表性是應該優先被考量的而不是說擔心不能沒有經費不能諮詢而且台灣的兒女案件真的有多到說你會不足以支付這個交通費嗎有案才開會"},{"start":4977.192,"end":4996.143,"text":"這個我是在講過去地方政府他們會這樣做而且人做選擇的時候他有些人不選擇所以我說為什麼執法非常重要如果竹分委員說要訂到前面我們當然也同意說把資格要件放進來可是這個要件就像我們不會講婦女團體我們會比較在意的是性平等"},{"start":4996.503,"end":5025.049,"text":"人事上是在裡面的因為如果要處理性的問題她畢竟有受過訓練性別議題所以婦女團體婦女團體當然很多元但我們假設的性別議題性別觀點其實就是婦女團體當然婦女團體地方政府可能是找一個可是也不見得有受過訓練因為我們覺得有受過性別議題我們想像的婦女團體跟最後地方政府去找的婦女團體可能會不一樣這個就是牽扯到主政者的"},{"start":5026.329,"end":5036.156,"text":"包括那個社政人員可能自己本身都有問題啦那些社會行政考進來的公務員搞不好他都要先去受專業的訓練一下否則他們根本也毫無性別觀點同不同意這題先保留 幫幫他 李卿我覺得這樣子對孩子的權益會比較有保障"},{"start":5047.864,"end":5075.361,"text":"這個保留我也同意但是我也希望主管機關這件事情你也要跟地方政府就是去討論就是在委員會裡面委員提出希望是擴大有這麼多那他們實行上面到底有什麼樣的困難另外一個你現在是兩層架構你也是要你調查完之後你的審議也不能太慢你這件事也不能拖就是說你要在一定的期限你的SOP到底是什麼希望下次討論的時候你們自己的想法就是說從調查到審議委員會"},{"start":5077.282,"end":5093.919,"text":"他的組成到開會到定案你這個也不能拖太久吧你不能為了找一個專家然後就是只是為了那個人沒有到位然後去去影響那個開會的時效這個恐怕也不妥這個中央主管機關就可以列明冊以後就叫他們從這個資料庫裡面去找我的意思就是要足夠"},{"start":5094.679,"end":5120.251,"text":"所以你們這個通牌都要考量還有剛剛月秦委員說要授訊如果再加上要授訊的名單然後怎麼樣是可以比較周延的才有可能實施我覺得你們就做一個通牌考量因為委員拋了很多不同面向的好不好謝謝這樣他就不要白給我們就好了他可以再白賣什麼"},{"start":5123.171,"end":5124.772,"text":"所以各位還是針對4.6條要保留"},{"start":5150.66,"end":5167.959,"text":"好那就4條的保留那我們繼續審查第47條修正冬季有林玉琴委員所提的第一案還有劉建國、范雲等4人提的修正冬季第12案"},{"start":5172.269,"end":5194.679,"text":"來 請行政機關表示意見是 針對第47條的部分那先前跟各位委員比較有跟院版有出入的地方我們大概已經做了一些調整跟盡可能我們去把它納進來那第一個是先前應該是有委員建議在調查報告的部分要能夠通知給"},{"start":5196.38,"end":5213.595,"text":"這個事件的所涉及的兒童的法定代理人或實際照顧的兒童之人那這個部分我們會參採我們也把它把條文先納進來了那第二個是對於這個調查的結果調查審議的結果如果是有不符的部分是不是可以去提起相關的救濟"},{"start":5214.355,"end":5240.276,"text":"那在前一次審查的時候就這個部分也曾經討論過那我們在這邊我們會建議做一個比較小幅的調整那因為未來在調查事件的時候他可能是針對對於兒少本身有一些不當的對待也可能有一些可能是單純行政上的部分所以我們建議在第二項的部分我們文字建議做一個微調把它稍微聚焦在"},{"start":5241.316,"end":5268.314,"text":"兒童的法定代理人或實際照顧之人行為人對於他是違反第36條的調查結果就是針對對兒少的這個就是針對被受託兒童的一些不當對待或者是有這個這樣的問題的部分他的調查結果有不符的時候他可以來議法提起訴願那甚至接下來那個針對調查結果的摘要我們會去做公開的動作 以上"},{"start":5271.581,"end":5299.887,"text":"好來請林淑媛我有一個疑問因為限15天以內要把這個調查報告通知這個法定代理人或實際照顧兒童的人那聯同調查報告這個調查報告就是經過審議小組審議過的是不是是在執行面上會不會"},{"start":5301.87,"end":5321.726,"text":"執行面15天這邊在講調查結果應該是針對審議的部分因為後端要提起他後端是要提起可以提起救濟所以應該是針對最後所以這個是審議結束的15天內而不是事件發生的15天內"},{"start":5323.959,"end":5353.383,"text":"因為這個餘15天什麼的15天是事件發生後的15天還是審議結束之後的15天這不對應該是審議結束以後完成審議那完成審議四個字應該放進去吧這是要出的這是要給外卸者"},{"start":5355.165,"end":5373.821,"text":"故意餵家瑜餵家瑜保密跟故意想不講在行為範圍說這個是要加重的你怎麼可能跟人家放在這一塊你要放這個OK但是不是放在這邊他現在是說如果我們要這樣的時候的話"},{"start":5377.939,"end":5405.292,"text":"跟委員報告 因為現在46條現在是保留那現在我們建議的草案文是在46條的第三項他講的是說對於事件的調查結果應涉審議小組那審議小組其實審議的最後我們是不是要用審議的因為在46條並沒有特別去解 叫做審議的結果或審議的結論"},{"start":5406.713,"end":5432.793,"text":"那這個部分的話我們會建議在現在審議的47條的部分我們是不是在這個條文的說明欄去把它講清楚那這個如果是文字需要更明確的話我們是不是用第三甚至用第三項我們必須要非常清楚的界定15天是從什麼時候開始的15天那如果是這樣我們建議47條的第一項"},{"start":5435.395,"end":5449.783,"text":"這個是將這個後面的調查結果載明事實理由我們是不是直接把它修正成第三項那這樣的話就直接可以對應到它是經過審議小組去審議完成是不是可以這樣子做"},{"start":5451.729,"end":5465.037,"text":"至少立法說明欄應該要講清楚方向上我們是支持這樣子但是就是說要怎麼寫才會清楚可能要寫一下"},{"start":5479.684,"end":5490.145,"text":"對"},{"start":5493.499,"end":5515.621,"text":"应该是这样跟委员说明但前条是不是第三项应该是第三项而且那个到底我们给的是审议结果还是调查报告因为有可能审议的结果会对调查报告进行修改修正对所以应该是调查报告应该是审议结果不是调查报告"},{"start":5517.681,"end":5538.95,"text":"因为审议的委员可能会有不同意见所以最重要定的是审议结果所以他应该改的是直辖市县市主管机关应将前条第三项之审议结果以书面载明事实及理由于15日内通知应该是这样的意思的"},{"start":5539.95,"end":5559.053,"text":"调查报告有可能就跟审议结果会不同所以他应该是根据那个审议结果调查报告只是一个事件的过程那审议结果是对于事件的调查的处分他已经载明了四十几理由"},{"start":5560.942,"end":5584.429,"text":"就是說把調查報告裡面認為這個審議結果審議小組認為是但我怕只有審議結果沒有調查報告在裡面所以要不要把調查報告和審議結果同時兩個兩個都放進去調查報告的內容是核心調查報告是做成最後決定的程序但是你審議結果要把調查報告放在裡面對啊"},{"start":5587.25,"end":5602.763,"text":"调查报告及审议结果如果两边有不一致的时候没有 调查报告调查报告就事实调查那审议结果就是审议结果你两个都放进来"},{"start":5604.585,"end":5628.002,"text":"所以结果要调查的事实就像我们做依旧鉴定一样最后有个鉴定小组所以那个鉴定的意思它有初步的鉴定意见可是最后是由鉴定小组做成的共同决定共同共事做决定所以不会把前面的那个前置作业的内部文件作为你最终的"},{"start":5629.063,"end":5649.33,"text":"報告內容所以他應該是以那個審議結果然後要在明事實理由好 我再講為什麼我們重視這一個東西是因為當事人如果不服是要訴願的如果要訴願的時候他一定要了解到就是說事實是怎麼認定的"},{"start":5650.393,"end":5671.739,"text":"那你們事實是怎麼認定的你要讓家長知道那他要採取救濟手段的時候才會知道要怎麼救濟啊對 所以我不能只有審議結果也應該要有調查報告的內容沒有 這個審議結果就包含宰民事實及理由了"},{"start":5674.149,"end":5674.971,"text":"我們應該是以調查報告為主然後把"},{"start":5682.052,"end":5709.54,"text":"這個審議結果也告訴家長其實家長需要知道是調查報告因為他要知道真相再來就是說他要法律救濟他要法律救濟你的審議結果我不服啊就這個真相我對於你的審議結果我不服啊我要救濟那如果你沒有告訴我真相調查報告我怎麼提出我的救濟的這個防衛的手段內容"},{"start":5712.076,"end":5735.857,"text":"就是审议结果好OK你讲审议结果也可以但审议结果要包含调查报告中的事实对对对我们现在的文字上就这样写就是把那个打上去就看得很清楚了这审议结果以书面载明事实及理由不是只有说成案或不成案的结果它是包含了事实及理由"},{"start":5737.793,"end":5766.785,"text":"好 我們請王委員 之後再請陳委員好 謝謝主席 針對於這個像是裡面兒童是法定代理人或實際照顧兒童是行為行為人對前項調查結果是決定不符則得依法提出 提起溯源這個就是蘇文委員一直在強調到底如果他將來要依法提起溯源的時候他是要根據調查報告還是要根據審議結果還是兩個都要同時"},{"start":5767.905,"end":5795.213,"text":"讓他們有機會去溯源 這部分可能還要再釐清或者是定的清楚一點還是那個王參事不曉也可不可以提供意見來 那個陳昭志委員先表示意見 因為相關的我也先表達一下意見那個調查的動作他實在是收集一些他們看得到的 就第一時刻或是說反正就兩天內啟動嘛 看到但是這個資料判斷"},{"start":5796.353,"end":5813.729,"text":"這個做判斷 很多委員會太多的行政機關都是有這樣的前段作業跟後段然後大家才坐下來用各種觀點和各種角度討論這個證據本身的強度然後我們最後的判斷的一個過程所以當然我相信這樣的審議大家嚴謹的這個組成的這個審議小組他做的東西絕對不會是通過通過他是性侵或性騷等等不會是這麼簡明的"},{"start":5821.575,"end":5833.424,"text":"一就是根據他們所說的去做說明這個任何一個包括你那個衛福部的資料衛福部專家會議啊健保都是一樣的所以你如果用調查的原始的資料給他那是還沒有經過專家判斷會造成很大的問題很大的問題所以最重要是審議小組的資料怎麼寫"},{"start":5841.209,"end":5868.977,"text":"怎麼寫最重要而不是一個就是交代的很清楚你的rational是什麼所以我支持審議只能看一份資料不然不得了這糾紛不斷了謝謝好謝謝來請陳醫師最後我們就同意你們的這個修正可以啦因為他有寫要展明事實及理由好謝謝謝謝委員所以最後他那個訴願的對象就是審議結果不會是針對調查報告進行訴願"},{"start":5871.618,"end":5888.134,"text":"不是啦 夙愿对审议结果夙愿但是对对审议结果夙愿一定要牵扯到这个事实是什么所以我对审议结果不服嘛所以我们在审议结果一定会有书面去在你不可以说夙愿只是对于审议结果对啊"},{"start":5891.865,"end":5918.41,"text":"來 王委員 來如果對事實調查不符呢對於事實調查不符調查報告還是有它的重要性所以這邊可以先保留好 謝謝來 王委員主張先保留因為他 王委員還是希望把那個調查報告放進去調查報告跟審議結果如果能需要並列的時候因為我們不知道這個兩個之間的落差會差異性多少"},{"start":5920.311,"end":5944.562,"text":"這個汪城市請你出面吧汪城市我們如果對這個調查的報告完整的事實的調查如果不符呢是跟那個主席跟委員報告因為我們這一條的重點好像是希望能夠讓家長或法定代言人或實際照顧兒童的人他們知道這個結果可以有一些如果不符他的決定可以提救濟"},{"start":5945.342,"end":5964.756,"text":"那其實這個救濟依照我們的相關規定應該試試看他是不是可以提訴願那我們訴願法的第一條第二條規定其實是要針對行政處分認為不法違法不當或者是對於依法申請的案件機關有不作為情事的時候是得提起訴願所以這個前提就是這個"},{"start":5966.457,"end":5989.543,"text":"一定要是行政處分才可以但是現在如果我們是調查結果這個調查報告其實應該看起來是我們屬於內部機關的一個處理一個調查的一個過程所以好的是這個審議小組做的依照這個調查報告大家再做一個比較仔細的審議之後做成的結果這個就可能會有處分會有懲處這個才叫做行政處分這個來對他做救濟才會符合我們的"},{"start":5996.024,"end":6017.728,"text":"所以我們在這裡要確認一件事情就是說這個調查報告都是建議性質的他會適時的調查還有包括建議的處理的方式這個是建議屬性的那只有審議結果才是才能做成這個行政上的處分的這個法律性對以上會比較是我們所謂的行政處分好那王委員還要保留嗎"},{"start":6027.251,"end":6052.803,"text":"這樣我瞭解那個王三世所提供的這些法律見解以上 王三世講你就瞭解了好謝謝好那我們第47條就依照行政院提案林月琴委員修正動議林淑雯委員所提案來修正通過好繼續處理保留第49條"},{"start":6057.142,"end":6084.279,"text":"來 請行政機關表示意見第49條當時在保留的主要的原因是第一個是林淑彭委員有提案希望能夠針對居托服務中心的相關工作人員然後第二個是當時也有討論到文字的部分到底用委辦還是委託那這個部分我們大概文字都已經做了相關的文字的整理"},{"start":6084.779,"end":6110.004,"text":"那我們大概統一第一個是居住中心我們把它納進來第二個是在前後整個草案條文我們大概就現在全部條文一併整理全部用委託的文字那大概都有整理完成那請各位委員參考好 各位委員針對保留條文第49條行政機關也在做文字上的調整請各位過目之後表示意見"},{"start":6115.067,"end":6115.451,"text":"來 請林淑穎委員"},{"start":6120.057,"end":6147.29,"text":"抱歉我不曉得我們有沒有提修正動議我也搞不清楚就是說有執行面的問題有一點要說明就是說托育機構在聘僱主管人員托育機構托育人員工作人員或居家托育服務中心聘僱工作人員前應該要檢測就是前僱主"},{"start":6149.594,"end":6176.129,"text":"微退系統還有短期內如單日代理人員如何事先核准執行面的這個問題因為我們這個是要求他必須要直接現在還有這個單日育嬰留職停薪要受託這種問題這種都臨時性的"},{"start":6179.485,"end":6189.591,"text":"這個會不會在你們系統要進要退要進如何事先核准短期的要如何事先核准執行面會不會"},{"start":6194.353,"end":6219.545,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分的話在只要是聘僱之前他會需要去對他的38條 39條 40條主要是針對他的消極資格要去做定期的查詢那目前的話其實針對在依照兒童法本來就已經開始有固定期的在不管是任職前或者是任職中都已經定期有在做那我們只是這個因為"},{"start":6220.405,"end":6236.978,"text":"而托把单独立法的关系我们把它拉进来这个部分我们都会持续的来操作那而至于现在因为劳工法令的部分有容许这些员工可能在请假的部分有弹性那但是如果他的请假的内容不会影响到他干"},{"start":6238.518,"end":6259.023,"text":"应该是雇佣者中间的牢固关系没有雇佣关系的改变单纯的请假的话这个部分应该不会发生额外需要再去做资格查证第二个是这一类人员因为有请假的时候现在在管理的规定上面本来就有要求机构要准备有相关的备用人力"},{"start":6259.543,"end":6283.386,"text":"所以即使是这个因为工作人员会有这样请假的情况那这个机构的雇主端他是要备妥这个适当的这些备用人力然后去保障这些这个尤其是机构这些受照顾的小朋友的权利我记得好像有个案有个案是这样说的就是说他已经不在那个机构服务了"},{"start":6283.919,"end":6301.378,"text":"他的前雇主还没有把他退出就是他好像都还没有退出他们那个系统类似这样子如果他的劳雇关系确定已经解除个案的部分我们将来我们来协助他处理"},{"start":6302.512,"end":6326.162,"text":"所以就是个案处理既然雇佣关系已经解除那就没有理由因为登记的部分是雇主的雇主有其他的原因然后这个没有办法让他到下一个下一个雇主的地方去工作这我们个案来处理那我现在讲就临时的单日的短期的代理的人员要怎么事先核准"},{"start":6329.542,"end":6349.549,"text":"臨時可以來代理你知道這個勞動條件不太好機構會有機構的備用的人力的部分其實是事前性的處理這個通常我們就我們以往在行政管理的經驗是機構會事先處理而不是等到同仁請假才臨時找人代理"},{"start":6350.029,"end":6376.577,"text":"那这个部分如果说确实执行面有现在真的是很难说现在很多人民今天就说老板我不想再做了然后就直接不来了那你真的是要去找人来单日代理或者是短期代理那单日留庭啊或短期代理没有人力就是要去找这种临时来的否则也是另一种违规啊那要怎么处理"},{"start":6380.888,"end":6403.492,"text":"確實是現在要求我們現在是有要求機構本來就是因為有照顧比例的關係因為你們都要事先核准所以為了維持這個比例本來就有要求機構要有儲備的備用人力那這個備用人力的資格或者是管理本來是機構的雇主是應該要來處理那如果是一旦備用人力這個規範有法則嗎"},{"start":6409.335,"end":6417.609,"text":"有有明定嗎沒有的話他沒有弄他到時候就是必須要因為我們都要事先核准我現在問的是執行面問題這樣子"},{"start":6419.255,"end":6442.068,"text":"所以如果他没有足够的如果他没有足够的人力那就是他的人力达不到设置的标准所以我们就会要求但是就临时就跟你讲现在年轻人真的很多你想象不到的老板我不做了然后今天今天下班跟你讲我不做明天他就不来了真的很普遍"},{"start":6445.658,"end":6464.885,"text":"厨工像厨工也會厨工也是說廚師說我明天在外面做很累所以我的意思是說真的是現在的勞動力市場因為勞動力短缺的非常嚴重我們想像不到的問題都會發生都會找臨時 需要臨時來那臨時來的這種部分要怎麼處理"},{"start":6482.51,"end":6504.833,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在在管理上面目前這個托育的機構絕大多數那都有跟政府簽準公共化托育的契約私立的部分我們現在對於這個準公的部分因為有給他比較額外的協助所以他的人力比本來就有提高"},{"start":6505.613,"end":6529.776,"text":"就比要求对于准工的部分透过补助协助机构把他的照顾人力比提高所以一旦如果在只要他的同不要同时离职的同仁发生非常多的话一般来讲机构并不会马上就碰触到所谓违反设置标准的人力比例的问题"},{"start":6530.296,"end":6552.092,"text":"你讲的是理论的我现在就是这样你现在的那个人力比是多少现在设置标准是1比5法规的1比5但是他跟政府签准公共契约是1比41比4到1比5之间的这个部分是政府有补助有奖励补助给企业机构"},{"start":6552.713,"end":6563.188,"text":"所以基站他达不到1比4的时候我们中间会有一个缓冲收拖30个是不是要1比4达到公托要5个"},{"start":6566.005,"end":6590.735,"text":"5个保姆吗如果30个的话除以4应该7.5那这算整数要8个那如果1比5要6个8个那他会多两个他少一个的话他少一个的话变7个那7个有符合吗7个的话他会不符合准公共但是还达得到设置标准所以你说如果不要太多人离子只要一个离子就不符合了所以他还不会达到违反设置标准"},{"start":6591.275,"end":6620.492,"text":"在降到准工以下之前我们就本来就可以要求他去有他等于就是实质上的一个缓冲那他有一定的期限感会把人力补足我是要提醒你说有时候是不是类似这种临时人家就是辞职的如果可以证明是这种状况的那你可以允许他是不是你不要你都叫人家事先核准嘛那可不可以当日当天核准临时的并不是固定成年都这样子"},{"start":6621.512,"end":6643.418,"text":"類似這種情境能不能有一點彈性我的意思是只要這樣子而不是說我們反對跟委員報告這個執行面的部分的話是不是容我們這個找先是大家一起來討論在執行的做法的部分我們來試試看盡量給這個在執行上面保留出相關的彈性出來讓"},{"start":6644.478,"end":6664.957,"text":"不管是业者或者是地方政府在操作上面能够相关谈论这个部分我们是不是可以对啦刚才的30个那他要6个嘛他少掉一个就连那个设置条例都不行他如果是6个当到5个以下的时候他确实没有没有不要讲当到5个以下少一个就离只一个就发生问题了"},{"start":6665.598,"end":6683.363,"text":"可是真的真的這種狀況很普遍那這種狀況你你允許他就是說你可以證明他是臨時的然後真的是剛到的那當天一定要當天一定要這個處理好了你們去你們去想想辦法"},{"start":6689.824,"end":6702.769,"text":"要怎么样处理这种有一点点行政上的弹性这个行政上的那个处理我是要告诉你说你把他弄死下去真的现代大家都违规违法的很多我不便宜了解"},{"start":6708.008,"end":6735.738,"text":"這個部分我們會這個部分我們會找縣市來做討論但是文字的部分我們跟委員拜託是不是可以有可以一定先維持現在第這個49條現在的文字因為他其實主要他還是在設置標準的執行的部分其實跟49條還稍微有一點點距離那但是委員所提示的部分我們會另外另案來處理但是因為你還是有一個前一個字啊所以這個是不是也是"},{"start":6739.222,"end":6763.354,"text":"你這個聘僱錢這個字還留著嗎現在已經是這樣現行在兒少法的時候規定已經是這樣可以我有第三輪嗎沒關係 現在是要依照你的版本要通過你叫我的版本通過沒有啦 其實沒有叫我的版本因為它有一個前置"},{"start":6765.151,"end":6789.08,"text":"前次你們兩個看我怎麼欺負了很多好啦 隨便你們啦沒有意見啦 反正到時候大家都是把頭埋在沙子裡面啦其實真正執行面不可能大家都違規啦變成大家都違規啦因為一個離子他媽想去欺負一個要錢但是你把錢拿掉有道德壓力啊我也不行啊 我也不堅持啦"},{"start":6790.342,"end":6801.071,"text":"把錢拿掉是有道德壓力的啦我也不堅持啦但是我告訴你是大家都大家都違法違規啦只是有沒有查到會變成這種狀況要維持原狀就維持原狀我們意見你們要不要再宣傳一次"},{"start":6817.971,"end":6839.309,"text":"我們會建議是不是在這一條的部分在第49條的第一項我們是托育相關人員或居家托育服務中心工作人員就把這個居托整列進去然後在第三項的部分就是托育機構聘僱主管人員機構托育人員工作人員或"},{"start":6840.029,"end":6855.601,"text":"居家托育服務中心或受托單位聘僱工作人員前應查詢其有第38條第39條或第40條第一項規定情形以聘僱者應定期查詢"},{"start":6856.101,"end":6884.763,"text":"然後第四項一樣也是針列就是托育機構於聘僱主管人員托育機構人員工作人員或居家托育服務中心受委托單位聘僱工作人員前應檢據相關文件以下跟條文相同好 各位委員針對這樣文字的修正有沒有其他意見好 如果沒有我們就依行政院提案林書文委員提案"},{"start":6885.779,"end":6888.649,"text":"修正通過繼續審查保留條文第50條"},{"start":6894.644,"end":6922.555,"text":"草案第五十條的部分各委員的版本大概都是針對違法事件的時候是不是要做暫停收拖的規定我們大概都有參採進來那另外也參考了這個張雅玲委員的修正動議我們在第一項的最後一段那因為我們原來現在是做加強輔導暫停新收拖那也參考張雅玲委員的意見"},{"start":6923.155,"end":6937.825,"text":"那是不是在情節重大的時候可以暫停整個托育服務不是只有新托的連現有收托的都全部暫時停托那我們就把這個按照情節程度的輕重我們把它甄列進來律師會議員我想我自己在修正就是說"},{"start":6951.789,"end":6967.381,"text":"要拉到情節重大才暫停嗎有時候是是狀況有一些上代釐清那我有一些事實還在釐清期間我們是不是也授權給行政部門仍有先暫停托育服務的這一個權利"},{"start":6971.618,"end":6992.106,"text":"就是說不必要等到情節重大因為情節重大可能是一個結果調查結果出來了但如果還在現況還在釐清當中的我們就仍擁有這個先暫停托育要求他暫停托育服務的這一個權利"},{"start":6995.514,"end":7019.646,"text":"就是必要時把這個權利授權給行政部門去判定不要等到調查結果以後情節重大啦把情節重大拿掉啦或必要時得令其暫停新託兒童或暫停托育服務這樣是更更好的"},{"start":7021.198,"end":7030.587,"text":"彈性更大而且可能這樣子是符合需求暫停你也可以暫停他一個月到時候到時候看調查狀況出來繼續暫停還是什麼的可以喔"},{"start":7041.796,"end":7066.573,"text":"那第五十條的部分那我們就建議第一項的部分做文字的修正那我先直接先整個第一項直轄市縣市主管機關之息托育機構所屬托育相關人員居家托育人員及與其共同居住之人設有第46條第一項所定違法事件時應及通知受托兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人並於行政調查 刑事偵查或法院審理期間"},{"start":7067.493,"end":7093.971,"text":"協助托育機構及居家托育人員依法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人意願轉介收托之兒童並加強訪視輔導必要時得令其暫停新收托兒童或暫停托育服務好可以但我現在在這裡講一下我們的版本本來就沒有情節重大這四個字是我們這一個新修正就照我們的版本了OK"},{"start":7097.97,"end":7115.847,"text":"我是要講情節重大那個不是我們的概念不是脫蒙的概念沒有那個是張雅玲委員提的啦好沒關係那各位沒有意見了齁那我們就依照行政會提案修正通過繼續審查第52案"},{"start":7120.676,"end":7149.375,"text":"原來保留第52條是針對托育人員每年應受的訓練課程那在上一次審議的時候委員大概對於應該上訓練的課程裡面覺得需要處理的議題包括了一個是性別平等課程那第二個是有關事故預防傷害以及相關是不是甚至對於這類是不是要做演練尤其是演練的部分希望能夠是有一個定期舉行的機制"},{"start":7149.995,"end":7166.263,"text":"所以我們這次52條在文字上面我們做了一個處理那第52條第一項的部分我們就把它要求每兩年所應該接受的聯席要包括性別平等的課程那托育專業第二項那托育專業人員在受"},{"start":7168.364,"end":7185.98,"text":"應該在他提供受托育服務前兩年內或者是開始提供托育服務三個月內完成八小時以上的兒童基本救命術訓練而且每兩年要再完成八小時的這樣的一個基本救命術訓練"},{"start":7186.821,"end":7211.525,"text":"以及三小時以上事故傷害預防及處理的演練所以這個是就是每兩年都必須要訓練那直轄市縣市主管機關為了要完成這些訓練我們在增訂了第三項所以直轄市縣市主管機關要自行或委託相關機關來做這些訓練跟辦理演練的動作那托育機構跟居家托育服務中心都要能夠一起來協助以上好"},{"start":7219.093,"end":7223.397,"text":"那各位針對行政計畫的說明有其他意見來請王一鳴委員"},{"start":7227.096,"end":7253.889,"text":"這個是上次大家有討論比較多的基本上這一個事故傷害還有那個基本救命術的訓練跟演練這個是蠻重要的那另外你們提到說縣市主管機關每季要辦理相關的訓練課程演習英語協助每季的話那個頻率你們有跟地方政府討論過嗎就是說各地方政府的量能"},{"start":7254.77,"end":7261.103,"text":"以美季的方式去開辦相關的課程有沒有辦法做到有沒有去討論過"},{"start":7266.385,"end":7293.033,"text":"這個部分的話因為它是每季要去辦理那縣市是可以透過自行來辦理或者是委託相關的專業團體來訓練所以這個如果有外有外面公司協力的機制的話每季來辦我們推我們的這個整體的研判應該縣市在執行上面應該還可以做得到有討論過沒有單獨額外跟縣市討論但是我們大概評估各個縣市的量能"},{"start":7293.533,"end":7312.81,"text":"他如果是可以找到民間的協力單位的話這個部分應該是可以來處理對 這個是我的提醒因為不能只是中央立法地方你要考量到各縣市的那個量因為你講的美劑如果他做不到那怎麼辦就是因為這樣寫進去是相對比較沒有彈性而且是至少美劑"},{"start":7314.191,"end":7333.842,"text":"所以等於一年要有四次喔我是不太知道每個地方政府量能怎麼樣但是其實各縣市的資源差距是有落差的我不知道你們這個計是 概念是怎麼來這個可能要比較審慎一點 這個是我的提醒可能要真的好好評估一下那請立書委員"},{"start":7336.789,"end":7363.301,"text":"好在第二項裡面的課程名稱就是說倒數我不曉得倒數因為我的這個編排不一定是倒數第幾行OK來第二項就是說要受每一年內要再完成8小時以上的兒童基本救命術的訓練3小時以上的嬰兒事故傷害我建議再加個預防就是"},{"start":7364.281,"end":7371.366,"text":"嬰兒事故傷害預防及處理訓練因為這就是課程名稱加一個預防兩個字上去有了我們提供給委員的建議文字我們會把預防留到電台現在有一個疑問就是說我們已經這個基本救命術那他這裡的處理演練是要處理演練什麼內容"},{"start":7394.151,"end":7417.081,"text":"是要在教室裡面訓練還是還是怎樣就是要訓練什麼要講清楚一下然後那個睡眠我們上一次討論好像是講到說說明欄的時候要把睡眠安全的職能要放進去有放進去嗎有嗎睡眠因為睡眠促使的"},{"start":7419.232,"end":7433.691,"text":"我們好像是說要在說明嵐裡面要增加為了避免嬰幼兒因事故傷害死亡托嬰中心事故傷害課程也包含要強化睡眠安全職能如趴睡或是睡眠環境不安全導致兒童窒息死亡"},{"start":7434.732,"end":7461.2,"text":"這個要放到立法說明欄裡面要把那個上課的內容涵蓋進去睡眠的部分的話因為大概概念上它是包在事故傷害事故的部分底下那我們那個會遵照委員的要求我們在那個立法的說明欄裡面把睡眠的相關的部分我們把它拉進來 謝謝那那個處理訓練有救命術以外你基本救命術那你還要訓練什麼也要讓大家知道啊"},{"start":7463.51,"end":7463.591,"text":"來 歡迎你的請願"},{"start":7466.976,"end":7493.684,"text":"我針對那個後邊的就是三小時以上事故傷害預防及處理就好了因為後邊就有一個與一次以上的緊急救護的情境演練所以我不知道你這邊還有什麼處理演練就把演練兩個字刪掉另外一個你的課程這些到底有沒有訂一些實質為什麼我這樣問因為過去曾經有上居家安全"},{"start":7494.864,"end":7515.605,"text":"找了一個全部都在上消防今天居家安全不是消防居家安全義務梗塞居家安全利弊今天孩子跌落傷害居家事實上是最高結果怎麼都在上消防如果沒有明定課程大綱跟我們的師資甚至上課師資還有在講風水流年的今天風水流年的"},{"start":7516.286,"end":7535.115,"text":"搞得好就不會不會有居家安全的事故嗎不是這樣就是我的意思是因為過去有些保姆團體真的就是由他理監事來上課那這些理監事受過什麼訓練沒有啊那為什麼理監事可以大量這樣上課上的課的內容有時候我去聽我都覺得怎麼會是上這些"},{"start":7535.755,"end":7549.711,"text":"所以我認為資格要求應該要在哪邊去授權去訂會比較好一點否則的話你只管控上課上課背後的私資沒有被要求的話我覺得也是一大問題"},{"start":7553.33,"end":7577.387,"text":"這個在第二項月薪委員這個提示的處理演練那個演練拿掉我們配合辦理那那個師資的部分對不起 因為也許是投影的那個螢幕的不夠寬我們在最後一項 麻煩同仁拉一下就是現在在最後一項授權的部分其實對於這個辦理單位師資時數核給的部分這個原來在條文裡面我們大概都有建議有相關的訓練"},{"start":7578.428,"end":7602.831,"text":"那委員的這個提示我們也會把要訓練的內容跟施肢的部分未來在執行面我們可以來做處理要確定要課程大綱為什麼這樣講因為那時候我們去報案考核的時候就講幼童專用車的安全怎麼通通在地震跟火災幼童專用車我們講的事實上是孩子接送安全"},{"start":7603.892,"end":7631.679,"text":"我們看簡報通通在上地震跟火災又不是上幼童專用車地震火災就上在建物的地震火災跟幼童專用車有什麼關係類似這種問題那過去我們去看保姆也是有這種問題所以你不是只有講說那個項目實施方式可能你的課程內容跟大綱有沒有被要求否則的話科目它的標都寫幼童專用車接送安全可是裡面的簡報通通寫的根本跟那個完全沒有關係"},{"start":7632.879,"end":7661.572,"text":"表示施肢跟因為現在有有一個什麼叫安全雜誌什麼協會到處都在上課安全好像大家都可以上可是安全是對孩子講自為關鍵自為重要那所以我希望說你在訂執法的時候要把這些東西都訂進去以上來 謝謝林孫委員我是在請教一下就是說我們要8小時的兒童基本救命術的訓練嘛那這8小時是不是包含在每年的18個小時裡面內涵了"},{"start":7666.303,"end":7687.652,"text":"内涵内涵了目前是内涵这样内涵是不是会占掉非常多的死数18小时就8小时10小时他的某些知能我不知道就第一次拿到证照之后因为证照大概两如果是拿证的话实际上是两年那个证才要换"},{"start":7688.412,"end":7715.619,"text":"所以過去的做法會有說隔年只要上四小時如果他前面有拿這樣子才不會每年佔掉時數太多反而會不利於我們其他專業科目要去推動的像托育如果相關兒少全法有修改的時候那要用什麼時間現在又被要求要上性評那很多專業課程甚至他們照顧孩子專業倫理這些東西可能有時候都沒有辦法再再三的去強調有沒有考慮就是說這種技能訓練出來像過去"},{"start":7718.119,"end":7744.042,"text":"紅十字會拿到的它事實上是正式兩年的那我不知道說過去社家署在做這個的時候你們的因應是什麼否則上八小時的話每年都要上的話會變成是你佔掉很大的時數可能有些專業訓練就沒辦法進去有沒有考慮到說今年八小時完整上完的時候隔年上四小時這個可能要去考慮因為真的那個每年訓練"},{"start":7745.92,"end":7774.397,"text":"可是勤進研練要做 每一年勤進研練要做勤進研練跟8小時的訓練因為你事實上上太多課保姆也是很負擔人他這是每兩年那還好OK嗎OK喔那就照這樣"},{"start":7775.256,"end":7784.169,"text":"的文字喔好各位沒有意見的話那我們就依照行政院提案那委員提案來修正通過繼續怎樣"},{"start":7790.649,"end":7809.222,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個我們現在同仁在在上那個螢幕上面在處理文字那個現在框起來黃底的處理雨應該要拿掉處理沒問題你們這樣的速度真的是在讓我雨要留著對不起你只要把演練拿掉沒問題"},{"start":7815.024,"end":7823.831,"text":"確定一下 那個文字當然沒問題你這樣處理的速度讓我感覺到非常的惶恐跟汗顏所以我們休息五分鐘 謝謝我們剛才講的那個內涵可是你的條文裡面不是看得很清楚我們在立法說明欄是不是也要放進去就是說兩年的八小時都其實是"},{"start":7843.069,"end":7844.83,"text":"就是要含在一年18小時裡面"},{"start":7876.462,"end":7897.212,"text":"我們後面那個47樓最後一項那個有沒有改文字我剛看有沒有聽到第一項審議小組的什麼結果還是要公開嗎所以第三項要不要文字有修嗎"},{"start":7903.894,"end":7904.716,"text":"是調查結果嗎 審議小組的審議結果"},{"start":7946.264,"end":7955.811,"text":"法院的最後判決書是一樣的"},{"start":7972.087,"end":7981.237,"text":"就是等到 所謂審議調查的時候他有的身處 以前是完全因為為什麼我這樣講"},{"start":8005.351,"end":8008.475,"text":"你們的調查報告會給示威人嗎"},{"start":8011.317,"end":8022.784,"text":"那是審議以後吧,審議以後採月券,不會在調查的時候。那什麼行為人士當時沒看?不是,那是審議結果以後,不是在調查的時候。調查結果,調查結果,調查結果。"},{"start":8041.007,"end":8052.873,"text":"因為你知道為什麼家長這麼在意這個東西因為他們後來 當然我覺得這不是很好說然後透過預言拿到 裡面寫的 你訪談我的內容都不是這樣"},{"start":8061.72,"end":8078.15,"text":"那為什麼 比如你要我看過嘛比如我寫 我講的我又亂寫 我要看過可是你知道 那是因為 我知道我們整個論定結果不成立之後後來它是透過這個拿到來叫做連來調查報告跟我講來一次"},{"start":8094.422,"end":8102.992,"text":"兩照當死人的照片看如果可以拿來看國平的現在的情況進行嗎"},{"start":8108.471,"end":8130.495,"text":"教育局都不理睬你如果不相信的話我告訴你地方政府也是不可以給他看結果我看到事實跟我講的話完全不可以看剛才那個債券要拿掉那個資本救命是不是洗兩天對 我就要講那個債券那個債券要拿掉因為債券的話就外資"},{"start":8132.055,"end":8139.361,"text":"那個債就是要18加8所以你要內涵的話那個債字要拿掉你要拿掉否則會像外加的而不是內涵的"},{"start":8156.614,"end":8166.323,"text":"你自己看一下你要拿掉那個字啊沒有的話你要把那個再字拿掉"},{"start":8178.414,"end":8197.36,"text":"那你要立法"},{"start":8206.702,"end":8217.228,"text":"兒童基本救命術再訓練是4小時"},{"start":8235.592,"end":8253.92,"text":"對…那個是4小時第一次是8小時我們有renew code第一次是8小時過過之後再renew"},{"start":8277.547,"end":8278.729,"text":"副市長"},{"start":8295.557,"end":8295.997,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":8373.794,"end":8376.336,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8412.818,"end":8419.267,"text":"原來他想要的是要查報告可以去看可是我定在這個地方就怪怪的"},{"start":8437.66,"end":8440.884,"text":"可是自從我實驗的這個回覆已經不是一個確定的結果了"},{"start":8490.028,"end":8493.995,"text":"中間的過程就開始在這裡 對不對"},{"start":8513.241,"end":8525.777,"text":"來 我們繼續開會對 我知道來 我們剛剛處理到第52條嘛那請行政機關再針對52條的文字再確認"},{"start":8536.051,"end":8558.679,"text":"52條的部分的話我們再檢視了一下那基本上結構不變但是這個剛才我們的我們法治的部分大概有給我們有一個小的建議希望在文字上能夠寫到比較完整主要在第三項的部分就是直轄市縣市主管機關應自行或委託相關機關購團體專業學者每季至少辦理"},{"start":8565.563,"end":8570.716,"text":"前向相關訓練因為這樣才會跟相關的條文連在一起需要加兩個字"},{"start":8574.542,"end":8598.565,"text":"然後第四項在授權事項的部分那個也回應剛才月勤委員所提到的就是有關這些事故傷害預防處理的部分我們覺得文字把它納到授權事項裡面去所以會在現在的第三條文的第二行螢幕上投影的第二行第四項第二行最後面"},{"start":8603.638,"end":8630.155,"text":"基本救命術訓練的後面增列事故傷害預防及處理頓號這樣的話這個訓練的內容就可以跟前面的部分都搭在一起再加幾個字以上"},{"start":8633.059,"end":8662.231,"text":"來 各位委員針對文字的修正有沒有其他意見好 如果沒有話那我們就我剛剛講說補充一下就是說那個兩年八小時的救命數是內涵請在那個立法說明欄裡面講清楚一下沒有問題我們配合修說明欄內好那我們針對52條條文就依照行政院的提案委員您所問的提案來修正通過"},{"start":8664.574,"end":8687.976,"text":"好繼續審查保留條文第55條第55條這個先前在審議的時候那主要是針對這個有服務上面有爭議的部分來要進行做相關的調處那我們在這一次也爭這個依照各委員相關的提案的內容我們重新去做一個釐清跟整理"},{"start":8688.596,"end":8714.612,"text":"那主要的内容是第一个是所有这一类的事件我们统一把名称通通修正为叫做照顾的争议那这样的话可以让适用的范围到最宽那只要是有争议的时候通通都可以调除调除的结果不成立的话也可以再跟主管机关来做申请再次的调除那"},{"start":8716.744,"end":8732.759,"text":"如果是对于儿童在第二项的部分只是针对如果针对这一类照顾争议造成对儿童有损害他的权益的话也可以来声明异议声明异议的时候如果在次日内"},{"start":8736,"end":8754.114,"text":"如果跟主要的意義是可以跟這個托育機構來先做意義對於意義的結果如果不認同那也可以進入到調處的程序讓托育機構在進入調處之前能夠讓家長跟機構端能夠先有一次協調的機會"},{"start":8755.655,"end":8778.358,"text":"那第三項的話就是相關配套的文字的處理那我們也增訂了最後一項那直轄市縣市署管機關在這樣一個調查處理過程中發現有這一類我如果說在處理調查或者是調處過程中有發現違反事項的話那都可以去依照依法去做相關的這個違法事件的處理以上"},{"start":8780.7,"end":8805.043,"text":"可以让我们再看一下吗你从那个修正前面开始照顾争议不成立申请再次调除照顾争议好我们现在就是说这个照顾争议还是不知道它是什么就是它不是不当对待也不是消费争议那还有什么是照顾争议这样子"},{"start":8806.583,"end":8829.606,"text":"跟委員報告這類的爭議我們現在之所以改用這樣的爭議的文字我們就是希望把一個這個在能夠處理的範圍稍微把它做一些擴大那只要不是如果原則上家長或者是照顧者在第一時間的時候我們並不會要求家長去認定這到底違法不違法"},{"start":8830.487,"end":8846.38,"text":"那他都可以來申請做一個調處那大到他覺得小朋友是不是在機構裡面受到不當的對待那或者輕到可能只是小朋友今天帶到機構裡面可能是玩具被其他人拿走那或者是這個"},{"start":8848.602,"end":8873.427,"text":"这个老师在处理的时候是不是或者甚至被蚊子咬等等这种比较轻微的单纯轻微的事项那都可以那到这个是不是有争议的部分都可以进到程序里面来当然大到如果可能像收费不当对待也都可以那所以我们才会增列最后一项是说如果涉及到有违规的话"},{"start":8874.167,"end":8894.733,"text":"那主管機關還是本於全責就違規的部分要去納進來處理那就是這個調處的部分讓機構能夠有第一個是家長可以直接跟主管機關來申請調處那第二項是家長如果在第一時間有的其實跟機構如果互信良好"},{"start":8895.293,"end":8924.262,"text":"那就可以先跟機構來做一次協調的動作那在這邊我們把這個協調的名稱把它叫做異議就做這樣的處理那對於異議的結果如果大家就覺得不滿意那當然還是可以到主管機關進入調處我們大概把這個整個結構就做這樣的一個調整以上說明好 各位沒有意見吧"},{"start":8925.149,"end":8952.202,"text":"還有其他意見來 請王一鳴委員 王一鳴委員再換林書文委員這邊因為原來委員提的那個版本都是講審計兒童的權益那你現在是把它直接都改成是照顧爭議那原來委員的版本都是他一樣是走一個審議的程序你現在是叫調處那所謂的調處就是由行政機關就是自行受理"},{"start":8952.962,"end":8981.704,"text":"然後你的調處是什麼這部分可不可以再因為感覺那個整個處理的方式其實差異蠻大的原來民間版本大家提出來的就是說前面是違法那這邊是損及權益那他一樣是走一個流程但是你現在把它變成是行政化就是說這樣的一個爭議你就是直接就是用調處的方式那你那個的為什麼是轉變成這樣子那個的"},{"start":8984.046,"end":9001.088,"text":"為什麼是做這樣的調整可不可以再講清楚一點因為照顧爭議調處那調處這個是回到你的整個行政的處理的辦法嗎因為這個以下也都沒有做任何的相關的規範這部分可能請署長再說明一下"},{"start":9002.028,"end":9026.164,"text":"跟委員報告 這個如果說我們最後處理看到那個行為的樣態他就是一個例如說違規 例如說收費違反規定或者是有不當的對待那職權上他就應該主管機關有職權要來做相關的甚至後面調查甚至要處分那如果是在這個沒有到這種程度的時候那他的樣態可能就會非常多元"},{"start":9026.804,"end":9054.943,"text":"那我們現在就這樣55條修正的目的我們是想說讓因為這條發動者大概都在家長端或者照顧者端我們覺得不用讓這些家長端去負那麼沉重的說我要去區分他到底違法還是不違法所以他都可以第一時間他都可以找主管機關來申請或者是他覺得在事情的也許比較輕微比較單純的事項他就可以照第二項的規定直接找托育機構來做一個協調"},{"start":9057.124,"end":9080.207,"text":"那協調不成或者他直接找到主管機關主管機關就可以來做一個這樣調處的動作那他的定位基本上也是偏向於一個等於是協助家長和機構端能夠去把這樣爭議的部分做一個解決一個比較接近類似協調的機制那只是在這個協調過程如果發現了他是違法的"},{"start":9080.928,"end":9093.044,"text":"主管機關還是要基於主管機關的權責拿去做相關的處罰或者懲處或者是調查那只是做這樣就整個結構我們是做這樣的一個設計那跟委員做這樣說明來 林書文委員"},{"start":9101.567,"end":9127.279,"text":"因為在法律架構上我們本來是說只要疑似不當對待就要走通報了但是署長這個講法是說家長你不可能他是在這個不當對待的前階段也可以走這一條路或者是灰色地帶也可以走這條路我聽起來像是這樣子但我比較擔心的就是說因為疑似不當對待就要走通報"},{"start":9131.082,"end":9151.662,"text":"這個機構或者是中心就要通報了你現在叫他們會不會避重就輕走完這條路反而就是案子就被戳掉了戳掉了公委報告我們其實是多提供家長一個管道不是就是說我們允不允許在前階段就是"},{"start":9153.677,"end":9172.551,"text":"認定之前或是家長不一定有意識那就找走這一個調處調處就把真正的不當對待給戳掉了我是擔心這樣會不會所以跟委員報告所以我們在這個條文我們的最後一項"},{"start":9174.312,"end":9201.086,"text":"我們加了一個文字就是如果他發現在調查過程中知道有這些違反規定的時候這就是可以主管機關義務主管機關就是要把這個過程就是涉及到違法的情況來處理在這個過程裡面他可能在調處還沒到那個主管機關去的申請"},{"start":9203.612,"end":9211.535,"text":"他可能在拘托中心就申請調處了調處就成立了都沒有辦法到主管機關去啊"},{"start":9214.558,"end":9240.465,"text":"就是對於文化資本比較弱勢的家長而言有沒有這種可能因為他的認知上比較沒那麼強那如果這個機構經常都有這樣的狀況然後每個個案都這樣子處理掉有沒有可能我是在想想像我的想像但是你講的說是不是有時候也是需要有這一條存在"},{"start":9245.088,"end":9256.517,"text":"公務員報告就是我們的想法就是不用讓家長覺得這件事情也許是一定是當作檢舉還是認為說一定是已經到違法的程度"},{"start":9257.017,"end":9276.705,"text":"这个判断的这个工作不用放到家长的身上去所以我们额外提供一个管道只要家长觉得有疑虑这个判断的工作要交给谁所以到了主管机关来在调处的过程中主管机关的责任发现就应该要处理"},{"start":9277.225,"end":9297.45,"text":"那當然如果家長覺得他一開始就覺得可能涉及到不當對待沒有沒有 你聽我說你不是交給主管機關你第一道防線是交給拘托中心喔拘托中心那拘托中心調處成功了就OK了但拘托中心這條的罰則是怎麼處罰因為你這裡只問責這個"},{"start":9302.092,"end":9320.613,"text":"對 最後一項是說主管機關如果發現他有違反本法規定要應依本法規定處理不可以調除可是那也沒有罰則然後第一線是居托中心居托中心"},{"start":9321.494,"end":9349.225,"text":"也沒有刻以他通報的責任嘛那也沒有罰則嘛所以我講的意思是說案子可能都會在居托中心和主管機關那裡因為也沒有罰則大家都通通就直接就戳掉了就是有可能其實是涉及違反本法的事情然後因為有這一個允許他私底下調處然後就案子都戳掉了"},{"start":9352.267,"end":9379.113,"text":"就是這一條應該要跟前面的16條而且你這個東西就是說像小孩身上有瘀青啊保姆說不清楚啊那家長擔心小孩被打那他可能就跟居托中心申訴那一般的話我們就可能會會有一些調查程序16條那這樣子要不要按照48條去通報"},{"start":9383.598,"end":9397.827,"text":"不是那他要調處他就可能也不知道是自己小孩自己搞的還是那個機構裡面的人搞的那那這樣子的話你把責任弄到居住中心居住中心的人要不要按照48條通報"},{"start":9400.563,"end":9421.089,"text":"居托中心會需要通報那居托中心在這一次兒托法的訂立的過程裡面我們就把他定位成他是等於是受主管機關的委託來行使相關的類似行使公權力的位道所以他的責任就會所以居托中心的角度會更高對待嗎"},{"start":9425.646,"end":9440.963,"text":"你這一條照顧爭議在法律裡面要不要明文寫要排除疑似不當對待你沒有排除的話因為你剛才署長講法好像是疑似不當對待的前"},{"start":9443.996,"end":9472.911,"text":"前階段不管有沒有這樣的疑問都可以這樣提出但你可能會包含到不當對待這個時候就是居托中心在第一時間如果懷疑他可能涉及到有不當對待的話居托中心當然就應該要通報了通報以後就要進行調查了那還要繼續調處嗎所以這個時候就不需要再但是中間"},{"start":9473.931,"end":9480.026,"text":"不是如果你有通報的狀況是不是就要暫停調處因為我們要講清楚喔"},{"start":9483.764,"end":9510.869,"text":"應該是說你這一條是不是明顯直指涉及不法的就是有其他照顧上面的爭議的那這一類我剛剛問的就是說那就是由行政主管機關你們會先進行調處但是一旦涉及到違法事項你講的理論我們都知道但實務面不是實務面有可能是說他是不當對待到疑似而已那家長不清楚可以申請調處"},{"start":9512.429,"end":9540.767,"text":"那调处就可以戳掉了但是就是说如果我们去通报的话就不能继续调处因为如果去通报的话是不是就要调查这个时候居托中心判断会如果涉及到不当对待那么居托中心当然就应该要通报到主管如果他不通报呢那这个时候他们就调处完成了呢这个时候居托就是会有就会被处罚人家就调处完成了呢还是"},{"start":9543.689,"end":9570.437,"text":"今天能够在调处的部分不可能会涉及到行政机关的裁罚权限可以调处那么争议在做协助双家长和居家托育人员的调处的部分主要还是会聚焦在除了行政上面有违法以外的部分那只是这个通道给"},{"start":9571.737,"end":9599.123,"text":"給家長更方便的我知道你講的是理論上但我的意思是說你在這一條條文上設計上通報跟調除這兩個是不是要互斥如果你通報了還要繼續調除嗎通報就是要調查不當對待了那還要繼續調除嗎要不要互斥或者說你這個照顧爭議要不要明定要排除疑似不當對待"},{"start":9602.686,"end":9614.482,"text":"我擔心的意思是說其實很容易就是觸法行為然後在調處過在調處過程就戳掉了對"},{"start":9621.577,"end":9636.779,"text":"因為署長的講法的確好像是允許報委員這個是兩個事件第一個就是說我們現在我們現在這裡沒有規定我們托育人員或托育機構他有很多他要做的依法要做的義務他在依違反的所以行政機關去調查"},{"start":9637.6,"end":9651.221,"text":"你講的沒錯但是我的意思是說因為你有照顧爭議可以調處所以他還可以用這個來免責自己啊不會不會那個免責一定不會免責所以如果你照顧爭議可以讓他們免責了所以我們叫照顧爭議裡面要明"},{"start":9652.335,"end":9674.606,"text":"有這個調處的功能要明定啊我們在這裡立法要明定要排除一事不當這個對待啊是不是然後我們是不是要明定在這個我們是要在照顧爭議調處這個機制裡面要定清楚然後免得他們去免責了自己的應該的盡的法律的責任"},{"start":9678.092,"end":9688.639,"text":"就是說有兒童身心虐待體罰霸凌性騷擾不當管教及其他對兒童身心暴力或不當對待的行為這種疑似案件不得調處要不要明定上去"},{"start":9689.996,"end":9710.311,"text":"我跟委員報告如果是擔心這個部分我們建議是不是在我們現在提出來建議的文字的最後一項因為原來是寫說直轄市縣市主管機關對於調查過程那這個部分我們是不是把居托中心也納進來就是直轄市縣市主管機關及"},{"start":9713.353,"end":9739.464,"text":"居家托育服務中心這個在在處理 知悉居家托育人員或托育機構有涉及違反本法規定者應依本法規定通報或處理那這個時候就是在這一條等於是在這個爭議處理的這個過程裡面那這一條有處分的機制嗎"},{"start":9741.715,"end":9770.654,"text":"他如果是違反這一項有處罰的機制嗎這邊如果是提示了他要去通報因為前面已經有居家托育人員就有違反知悉有違反就有通報義務在前面就已經有條文了這邊等於是有一個更明顯的提醒的機制他會違反到前面的通報的義務所以他是可以處罰這裡是克責他要通報那他沒有通報在前面的條文就已經有處分"},{"start":9773.235,"end":9795.403,"text":"來 王振興委員是 謝謝主席 我想這個照顧正義這四個字的確有像林書偉所提到的 我會認同林委員的看法就是照顧正義本來就是兩端嘛有的可能是家長 那另外可能是另外一端照顧者認為這個照顧正義本身跟他沒有直接關係"},{"start":9796.443,"end":9811.15,"text":"所以除了這樣的加強以外那在立法說明能不能把照顧正義相關的這個可能的問題也在裡面多所琢磨讓大家未來對這個照顧正義本身帶來的影響是可以充分認知的以上來請林業勤委員"},{"start":9819.797,"end":9846.636,"text":"我就請威福不是要講清楚那個照顧爭議過去照顧爭議我認為我孩子事實上是在你這受傷那然後那到底是事故傷害還是事實上我任力而略如果你又說不當對待已經拿掉那到底這照顧爭議是什麼所以我不知道如果沒有講清楚的話會不會跟前面這些我們前面要處理的這些東西又混雜在一起"},{"start":9847.896,"end":9871.75,"text":"這個照顧真的事實上如果定義是傷害以外的契約像消費啊玩具這些相關照顧的問題那我們就可以同意可是如果不是的話那我就會跟前面要去處理當對待的時候混雜在一起的話又會亂掉所以可不可以清楚的做說明以上謝謝來先請黃修翁委員之後再請林淑文委員"},{"start":9875.176,"end":9889.364,"text":"謝謝因為照顧爭議這個詞在之前都沒有有時候我們寫下去之後在地方政府可能縣市政府他們的認定又不太一樣所以我希望就是說照顧爭議是不是能夠寫清楚謝謝"},{"start":9892.973,"end":9908.963,"text":"最後我就想說第三項最後因應本法通報或處理還要再加上一句話應該是講說不得進行調處因應本法規定通報處理然後逗點不得進行調處"},{"start":9913.639,"end":9925.373,"text":"對有違反本法了就不能調處這樣子要規定的清清楚楚的讓這一些要進行調處的居托服務中心的人或者是地方主管機關知道這件事"},{"start":9931.077,"end":9960.036,"text":"跟各位委員報告各位委員所提示的部分照顧爭議的這個概念確實是因為在這次審議過程中我們就草案的內容做一些調整未來立法通過我們會來跟地方政府就能夠調處的架構跟處理的方式來做一個相關的不管是協調或者是訓練或者是說明這個部分我們都會積極的來做相關的處理"},{"start":9961.616,"end":9985.543,"text":"但是在處理的流程的裡面我們會跟最後一項的文字的部分因為配合要考慮到就是它就是只要知悉到有違規的狀況就要依法去處理的話我們會建議第三項的文字可能最後 對不起最後一項的文字可能要稍微著作一點處理"},{"start":9986.323,"end":10002.351,"text":"等一下我們統統把它修改好可能再投影出來請各位委員指正那至於最後一項是不是要提到就是只要依法處理就不能夠調處的部分我們是會建議啦"},{"start":10003.111,"end":10018.662,"text":"因為這個如果真的是列進去我們也會遵照不過但是有一些比較輕微的不當對待它本來就是這個後面如果要去走民事或者是所謂告訴乃論罪的話這個縱使不走條處"},{"start":10022.625,"end":10043.791,"text":"它其實還是可以不妨礙民事或者是形式上訴訟外的做和解的動作所以這邊我們去寫其實是沒有問題不過家長如果本身是家長有意願其實這個可能性還是有有這樣的可能是不是一定要排除我們是覺得要不要在法律的部分保留這樣的機會給"},{"start":10046.112,"end":10058.765,"text":"把這樣的可能性因為它的可能會非常的多元那是不是一定要立刻就排除掉那我們是建議也許可以再審酌看看這個大概以上的說明"},{"start":10063.632,"end":10086.023,"text":"請說明來請回應我也順便再問一下就是說輕微的不當對待不是要回到條文裡面的調查變成怎麼署長一講就變成說給家長機會讓他們可以調處跟委員報告就是主管機關在行政上不管怎麼調查"},{"start":10087.645,"end":10106.103,"text":"家長都可能會有相關的民刑事請求或者訴訟上的權利那我們今天只要把這個不得調處一寫進去那他就只能去走訴訟他可能要去走鄉鎮事調解可能去走訴訟"},{"start":10107.324,"end":10131.869,"text":"那我们要不要因为其实我们这边不写要不要一次就把它全部都断掉我们只是考虑这一点而已这个停下来主管机关的权利一定都还是要去处理他的民事权利刑事权利都还在因为人家司法机构也有调处的机制并不是没有的"},{"start":10132.589,"end":10154.354,"text":"現在我的疑問是說不當對待還可以走條處不當對待已經違反本法你還允許他走條處我的意思是說那你們不是在擴大這個爭議的範圍嗎你們會把這個所有的這個法就都可以那什麼叫輕微的不當的對待"},{"start":10155.695,"end":10176.934,"text":"甚至中重度的不當對待也可以被認定為輕微然後就走條處了這個法律就架空了這個法律還要存在嗎所以你這樣是橫生更多的爭議目前幼照法的做法是輕微的不當對待也是直接的派員去調查"},{"start":10178.155,"end":10197.775,"text":"你们现在是说都不要调查了家长也说我亲属属性啊不要乱说我们大家合格后就好了合格合格我们儿童法要做什么大家也合格因为第四项的存在主管机关不管家长怎么谈主管机关都要依法处理"},{"start":10199.397,"end":10219.779,"text":"依法這裡就允許依你的法你這一條就允許調處了還依法處理如果你這一條存在連不當對待都可以調處和解了那他也是依法處理啊所以你這一條如果這樣子你照你這樣子講整部法律都垮掉了"},{"start":10223.183,"end":10248.567,"text":"不是嗎 保證你自己想看這螺絲 我主管機關我都依法但是我依的是兒托法的第55條可以照顧爭議 可以調處那我們允許不當的對待也可以調處所以人家都戳掉和解掉了那我們前面訂那麼多條文 訂得那麼仔細要幹嘛"},{"start":10249.881,"end":10255.434,"text":"這句話你說出來你連不當對待都可以調處所以我們一開始就講照顧"},{"start":10258.064,"end":10279.859,"text":"這個所謂的照顧爭議要不要先排除不當對待消費爭議也要排除因為你們自己說你們有定型化契約可以規範你這個照顧爭議首先我們一直問你什麼叫照顧爭議你要排除不當對待排除消費爭議所以我們也問你說那排除這兩個有可能的照顧爭議是什麼"},{"start":10281.52,"end":10293.605,"text":"你現在又告訴我 微型的輕微的不當對待可以走調處輕微的不當對待可以走調處這樣走回頭路 連幼照法都不敢這麼說那個 要不要請調處跟調查絕對是互斥的你講話不讓人家查 你也給人家講一下好不好 你不要這麼激動那個參事要不要簡單說明一下 對"},{"start":10311.4,"end":10338.3,"text":"因為林委員講的我清楚啦就是說不當對待的不理會什麼情味的跟痛的嘛你要給我這樣調處好像我們法律讓這樣的修訂還餘有那個空間是不對啦那照署長講的他應該是有一個先後處理的機制在那個地方但是一個是要直接就把它否決掉了"},{"start":10338.92,"end":10363.348,"text":"只要有不當對待沒有什麼叫輕微不輕微的還是輕重反正就直接直接調取就不能用就對了這樣的情況請說明一下是跟主席跟委員報告因為這一條一開始我們這樣陪著這個法案一直過來好像一開始也不是這樣的設計但是因為好像在討論的過程中有委員有提到"},{"start":10364.588,"end":10387.144,"text":"有一點那個定義不是那麼清楚因為我們這個馬案主要是怕很嚴重的情況這個要處理可是卻沒有處理那可是我們也就是怕小案怕大案被小辦但是我們這一條出來這個照顧爭議就是希望如果也可能也會有一種一些狀況是小案"},{"start":10388.564,"end":10415.659,"text":"這個大半那如果是這樣的話有一個平衡的機制才會有這個55條照顧爭議的情形定下來那因為也的確是有淑芬委員剛剛講的可能性有可能有可能就是很嚴重的狀況會被調處給戳掉因為調處本身是這個第三方協助雙方當事人用非送的方式來協商解決而且他主要是要協調和解為核心的"},{"start":10417.74,"end":10435.259,"text":"那這個部分的這個法律效果其實就比較像是民事在解決要達成和解方案的一個機制那如果說因為我們前面的46 47的判斷就是會有一個先如果有爭議的話會先到"},{"start":10438.002,"end":10450.719,"text":"縣市政府那邊會先做一個處理然後那個其實還不到受理的階段如果是小案的情形他就會在兩日內可能就可以做一個什麼簽結是不是應該是這樣的設計然後如果"},{"start":10452.681,"end":10471.402,"text":"兩日後決定要受理他就會派直接派員或者有一個調查小組來處理那這樣的話是不是可以在那個過程中處理這個可能要再討論一下但是基本上這個條文當初是怕很多的那種就是應該是說"},{"start":10475.405,"end":10495.871,"text":"爭議但是其實是小小的細微的那那種太多案件卻沒有一個機制處理所以才會有55條那要怎麼解決要不要把它分開這個可能還需要再討論一下因為這個也是我們最近才看到的這個條文所以我們也尊重那個委員的審議結果"},{"start":10500.131,"end":10503.514,"text":"好 我第一件聽你說的題目是什麼來 請你委員我再說一下 我跟你說兒童的權益絕對不是讓雙方大人去戳掉的如果我是機構的負責人不當的對待如果可以調處我就給錢"},{"start":10519.529,"end":10521.95,"text":"要不然整個機構都要被關掉了要停託啦所以呢這個什麼叫輕重什麼叫大案什麼叫小案誰決定誰說了算在哪裡說所以我一直在講說調處的範圍要有限制調處跟調查怎麼可能會並存呢當你要調查他的輕重"},{"start":10542.944,"end":10566.354,"text":"大小的時候你還允許他去調處那審議的結果如果屬於輕微的話調查完然後審議結果如果變成輕微那也是處分啊那如果這樣整個機制也可以廢掉幹嘛如果審議結果是輕微的話那當初為什麼要處分人家因為當初就應該走調處啦給人家賠錢了事啊"},{"start":10570.416,"end":10584.291,"text":"所以我意思是說你知識體大沒有講清楚你範圍沒有界定清楚整部法律都被架空了整部法在這裡審這麼久都沒好啊這樣都叫認真討論誰嘛來"},{"start":10601.861,"end":10613.77,"text":"這個我們討論還是應該要慎重的處理所以是不是因依本法規定通報或處理並因停止調處"},{"start":10616.441,"end":10639.779,"text":"就是不進行調處嘛因為這個一定是先受理調處才有調查嘛他前面的過程是這個調查是指說調處過程得為必要是調查嘛所以等於是為了要做調處進行調查結果調查的過程之西有違反本法的規定的那他就要轉成這個本法的規定處理所以要停止調處啦"},{"start":10641.721,"end":10662.001,"text":"只是我在想的是說因為這個裡面有兩個叫做再次調處所以如果前面的調處已經有成立的因為這個如果有不符就可以申請再次調處那如果是這樣那如果前面調處已經成立的是不是應該要視為不成立"},{"start":10664.932,"end":10691.717,"text":"他才能夠進行後面的程序還沒有做成調組結果就停止調組對 所以這個保留讓他們稍微去想怎麼樣的協法才是比較完善的如果是第一次調組結果應該也不成立的問題他們有時候是條件談不攏或者是那個只要沒有涉及不當對待的都可以繼續繼續去調處但如果凡是涉及到不當對待的應該就要調查就不應該繼續調處"},{"start":10694.915,"end":10718.589,"text":"那所以是不是用這樣的文字大家看一下就停止調處我想是不是不要這麼急著決定你剛剛講的前面的那一些要不要再想一下就前面再調處再往上再調處這個東西也是可以在你們去想有沒有有可能程序上會進行上會有什麼問題方向上我覺得原則上是這樣子沒有錯"},{"start":10720.034,"end":10731.343,"text":"如果有違反本法的話就不要繼續再調除但是那個整個整部條整條55條到底這樣寫有沒有需要再修正的讓你們稍微想一下啦主席先保留我知道啦我們這項一定是保留啦但是我還是要"},{"start":10742.744,"end":10764.611,"text":"我對剛剛這個參事的說明有一點不太清楚是這樣如果不當對待不分什麼輕重反正就是有涉及到刑責基本上是這樣那調處不能把調處這樣的字眼變成形容為戳掉"},{"start":10765.816,"end":10777.023,"text":"我覺得這個 可能大家要講清楚那而後 只要講到調除就好像 不管你是換什麼案就是要去抽掉我不會說完的我不會說完的不是啦 我不會扣帽子啊我如果給你扣帽子 你剛才怎麼說啊我講的是不當對待"},{"start":10780.945,"end":10787.293,"text":"不當對待的條署才是脫掉因為你就抹黑扣我帽子啊因為只有不當對待的條署不當對待的條署才是脫掉啊"},{"start":10797.646,"end":10814.391,"text":"誰講的 涉及不當對待的條署那我就是講涉及不當對待的條署我對這個法條 我有意見我要表達 不可以嗎你不能聽我講完嗎你不能聽我講完嗎那你現在是講話的時候你現在是講話的時候你現在是講話的時候你每次講 我就是跟你插話"},{"start":10818.292,"end":10828.284,"text":"沒關係 但你不能夠抹黑我我就不能夠忍受你抹黑我吧我們講的是涉及不當對待的條署就是戳掉同事間 連一個基本尊重都做不到"},{"start":10837.287,"end":10853.559,"text":"自以為很會修法莫名其妙不要抹黑人家才是尊重啊不是抹黑人家才是尊重啊尊重就不要抹黑人家啦你知道人家在講什麼還要抹黑你要講什麼東西啊你要講什麼東西審查法案大家理性討論"},{"start":10864.226,"end":10888.107,"text":"我是剛剛有聽到有人用這樣的字眼去形容我覺得不太恰當我有講你嗎我有在講你嗎然後你講的我還覺得說你講的是有其道理因為你擔心那個不當對待你還要進行調處是不是要直接排除掉在這個講話之前我還講這樣的話"},{"start":10890.011,"end":10906.467,"text":"你上次給我插什麼話 誰在抹黑你你要自己對他入座 那是你的事情那我只是說請行政單位再好好思考你們整個法條的先後的順序甚至以是不是可以在說明欄裡面做比較強化的補充哪有主席在說這個事情你自己跳進來說人家給你抹黑"},{"start":10927.421,"end":10948.447,"text":"戳掉就是你講的 那就是你有講啊那我講這有什麼錯對 你要把調處直接講說 叫做戳掉你前面有一個不當的對待那我只是說在法律用詞上調處不叫做戳掉我的意思是這個樣子 我講這樣什麼叫做對你抹黑什麼叫對你抹黑不當對待的調處就是戳掉"},{"start":10954.673,"end":10959.434,"text":"而且署長就是承認輕微的不當對待可以調處署長就是這樣講他當時就是這樣講署長這麼講我也沒有認同署長這樣講就是戳掉嘛我是請行政機關在法條上的針對調處這兩個字眼法律的定義要非常清楚啦"},{"start":10986.768,"end":11008.807,"text":"好 繼續審查保留條項第56條行政院碼第56條是針對主管機關在相關業務執行跟調查或者處理期間有需要和各包括警政戶政財政教育相關機關去調閱"},{"start":11010.729,"end":11029.577,"text":"要請求協助然後跟調閱資料的時候那需要來調相關的資料那先前審查的時候主要是考慮到說財政的部分是不是有相關的需求那我們是考慮到說未來這個因為這個托育的部分其實還是會有政府的"},{"start":11030.237,"end":11051.586,"text":"不排除政府在這個對於幼兒的照顧的部分可能會有一些相關額外的協助等等在資料的蒐集上面可能還是會有相關的需要所以我們會建議是不是第56條的部分當時在考慮主要是財政的部分我們建議這個部分的文字可以保留也就是能夠依照行政院版的條文來做一個審查以上請你出言"},{"start":11057.438,"end":11072.307,"text":"抱歉我看錯了我不是56條我是下一條抱歉來其他委員有沒有其他意見56條如果沒有其他意見56條我們就要行政院的版本來通過繼續審查保留條文是這個嗎陳培韻委員就審討領取公委員63條"},{"start":11089.406,"end":11097.181,"text":"繼續審查表流條文增揹委員是第61條 林署委員是第63條然後還有修正動議第7案"},{"start":11100.089,"end":11119.021,"text":"是 呃 請請進機關說明是 那 呃 針對呃 林淑雯委員陳培鈺委員的提案以及呃 昭緯的這個修正的動議那我們是 呃 覺得基本上是可以來做相關意見的參採怎麼樣讓呃 托育的居家托育的人員在托育的時候要去做一個專心托育的動作"},{"start":11120.001,"end":11136.057,"text":"所以我們在這個專心托育的行為裡面我們也整理了綜合的各委員所列出來的內容我們綜合了四個態樣第一個是收託期間如果要兼任其他職務不可以去兼任其他職務第二個是"},{"start":11137.719,"end":11157.051,"text":"不可以使六歲以下或者需要特別看護的收託兒童那獨處或者是有不適當的人員來照顧那第三個托育時間內如果要托育不應該離開托育的處所除非是有緊急的一些除非有特別緊急的事件那第四個是有其他的這個在前面三款所沒有列舉到的事項"},{"start":11158.451,"end":11174.596,"text":"那這邊同時也增加規定的是如果說在有前面第三款的時候這個居家托育的人會離開托育場所的時候他必須要能夠去要通知居家托育服務中心來做一個協助安排受托兒童的照顧以上報告來 各位請表示意見前一項"},{"start":11191.329,"end":11209.111,"text":"這樣子也可以啦 我本來我的意思是說本來本來精簡成居家托育人員如依前項第三款但書規定離開托育處所於離開托育處所前於離開托育處所前應通報這樣子也可以啊你們條款也可以好"},{"start":11213.638,"end":11234.772,"text":"主席可以講話嗎可以啊 因為請問 請說那個現在改的就是我不知道就是你的第三款什麼叫做緊急事件者不在此限如果沒有定義又讓人家擔心以後怎麼去認定所以可不可以請我們的社交組做一下說明"},{"start":11236.092,"end":11265.018,"text":"就第三款緊急事件者不在此先這個緊急事件者前面有什麼定義嗎可以讓我們釐清嗎否則的話到時候認定上會認為他的外出沒有問題可是事實上因為沒專心在照顧小孩就孩子受傷或死亡因為過去常有這樣子的死亡你說我出去我個人出去聯合收偷那我個人出去說我家燈泡壞了我出去那我認不認定就孩子在家裡死掉了"},{"start":11265.678,"end":11272.853,"text":"就那個緊急事件到底是什麼可不可以能夠是在哪邊可以做說明或是你們有沒有前面有清楚的定義以上"},{"start":11274.492,"end":11295.94,"text":"這個在我們現在沒有特別去目前是沒有特別去做這個所謂的緊急事件不過一般在社會的通念底下大概常見的幾種樣態大概都是屬於這個是屬於居家托育的人員他必須要趕快去離開而且要親自要去處理從這樣的一個概念下去衍生"},{"start":11296.56,"end":11320.438,"text":"那一般最常遇到的通常是如果這個居托人員他同時有帶兩個小孩其中有一個有緊急要送醫的需求的時候這種大概是我們最常見到這樣的情形那第二種就是可能是這個居家托育人員他自己的家人突然發生非常重大的事故緊急不得不要他去處理"},{"start":11322.019,"end":11342.942,"text":"例如說可能是家人有這個什麼例如可能類似車禍或者其他緊急意外的事故那他需要找人來幫忙做處理大概這個在我們實務上看到最多的是屬於偏重這一類的太陽那在解釋這個緊急事件的時候當然這個在認定上面他還是要有一定的正當性跟足夠的緊急性"},{"start":11343.502,"end":11351.716,"text":"那原則上我們會是以他的緊急的程度是以當事人他必須 社會的觀念上他必須自己要去處理為這樣的原則來去認定"},{"start":11353.817,"end":11373.263,"text":"那可不可以在立法說明還是要稍微去做一些比較清楚的概述就像剛才署長這樣講的不可以一點字都沒有寫否則的話每一個人你講通念是這樣可是我如果我個人認知或地方政府認知那就搞不好有很大的落差因為我們過去不是沒有看到這樣子的狀況就是說"},{"start":11375.044,"end":11397.499,"text":"如果他小孩假設在學校認為是生病可是有沒有急到這個程度到要馬上如果他他如果到時候去接他的小孩假設這裡家裡的孩子死亡的話那你怎麼去認定這個優劣的那個狀態裡面所以我覺得還是要把他在那邊說明清楚以上"},{"start":11398.54,"end":11413.371,"text":"謝謝委員指正那個部分我們在文字的部分我們會在說明欄裡面做一個基本的一個要求這邊其實我們也為了避免這個會發生解釋上面可能有一些脫漏其實第二項目的也是希望說"},{"start":11414.351,"end":11429.176,"text":"這個居家托育員如果離開的時候他還是要離開之前他一定要有一個相關的處理不是一走了之所以我們在第二項也有整理一些文字那希望能夠跟當他離開的時候能夠有一個配套以上那檢定書員"},{"start":11434.228,"end":11460.736,"text":"這個其實好像文字上還是有一點點意思上我是想說是不是應該是加但書兩個字因為本來前一項所講的四款是講說都不可以離開前面那一項講的都不可以有下列行為但是有第三款的但書者"},{"start":11462.082,"end":11479.233,"text":"才可以嘛所以我在講說居家托育人員如依前項第三款但書的規定去離開應該這樣講法義上比較清楚啦所以應該是這樣想是不是居家托育人員如依前項第三款但書離開但書的規定離開托育處所前"},{"start":11486.798,"end":11504.746,"text":"應通知居托服務中心協助安排這個等等等等這樣子語意才是順的啦來 請問議員那個我覺得那個特別的這個緊急事件不在此限你把它放在第三款"},{"start":11506.671,"end":11529.804,"text":"他應該放比較後面吧就是因為這一條主要是不得出現下列的行為啊所以你原來在第四款足以影響脫羽安全的這一些這個還是比較重要123應該都是去講他不得的行為你這種例外例外要去開放的為什麼要反而放在比較前面他應該放在比較後面吧你們當時的邏輯是什麼"},{"start":11535.798,"end":11553.908,"text":"你這一條其實主要是不得有下列行為你例外的應該是是令我的意思就是說你這個是要處理他不應該出現的情況那你的這個第三款是是要給他例外的原則不是嗎你插在這邊感覺快"},{"start":11555.148,"end":11576.856,"text":"兩位委員剛才所提問的部分那第一個是第二項的文字的部分我們可以來做一個處理那王委員所提示的部分我們當時只有把但書放在第三款就是因為第一個是第一款其實它這個在一般的概念上面兼職的部分我們不太可能"},{"start":11577.336,"end":11602.578,"text":"一般來說不太可能會發生所謂緊急事件要緊急事件可以去找人來協助啦因為基本上就不太應該去做兼職我們都比較希望居家托育人員專職那第二款的話是六歲以下去要特別看護人獨處那這一類的話其實本來就是這個如果他是會獨處那就是一定是緊急事件所以他就是會離開托育處所"},{"start":11603.559,"end":11625.794,"text":"就是他本來就不應該所以我們就擺在第三款就是他只有在緊急離開只有在緊急事件離開托育處所的時候他原則上不可以離開例外緊急事故可以離開但是離開的時候就到第二項他要請這個居家托育服務中心來做一個協助"},{"start":11627.125,"end":11644.755,"text":"對啊所以你還是不能讓孩子獨處啊你懂我意思嗎所以你這一個你寫在這邊你本來你是要呼應第二款但那個是沒有意義的因為第二款它是一個鐵律你就是不能讓孩子獨處你是說他可以離開那個場所但是你還是要其他另外的適當的大人去照顧他嗎"},{"start":11645.916,"end":11675.456,"text":"所以你你這個我是覺得那個邏輯上面怪怪的啦就是說最高的原則你就是不能讓六歲以下的孩子獨處嗎其實他發生緊急狀況還是不行他的前提是你下面自己提到了他要事先去找到人來照顧這個孩子他才可以離開他不是馬上說我的事情很緊急一個六歲以下他他兩歲的孩子就在現場獨留還是不行啊這個還是是最高原則不是嗎他不會打破這個鐵律啊"},{"start":11676.756,"end":11700.903,"text":"那你下面再補充講的都是即使他個人發生緊急狀況你都應該要找到適當的人你才可以離開不是這樣子嗎你怎麼可能說我處理一個狀況然後讓一個兩歲的孩子自己就在家裡面所以你在你把托育時間離開托育宿舍緊急事件不再實現這個擺在第三款我覺得是沒有必要的"},{"start":11702.335,"end":11707.266,"text":"他即使再怎麼緊急他還是不能讓孩子一個人在家如果他說都是兩歲的可以嗎對啊"},{"start":11711.861,"end":11739.532,"text":"他應該要他要在那個前言那邊寫不是啦這整條條文就是在講怕掛萬肉依就不可以怎樣不可以怎樣總而言之就是第一個要專職第二個不能獨留六歲以下不能獨留第三個就是因為我們一直在講實務面是說保母認為我沒有獨留家人都還在所以我出去逛街逛一逛反正我兒子我女兒幫我照顧他我們也不允許"},{"start":11739.932,"end":11759.873,"text":"那其實還有很多種狀況那我們怕掛萬肉衣所以才有第四款所有的法律的最後一款就是怕掛萬肉衣怕舉不完有extra的什麼什麼狀況一大堆這樣子所以才有其他足以影響這個托育服務自損兒童安全的行為是這樣子啦就是說"},{"start":11761.234,"end":11776.743,"text":"這個並不是說哪一個比較重要放在前面的問題而是不可以那不可以1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8總是還會有多出來的所以我們就怕掛萬肉依所以才把第四款變成其他的放在這個第四款就是說"},{"start":11786.007,"end":11813.978,"text":"托育時間內都不能離開他沒有毒瘤他還是有其他人留著照顧小孩他先生 他孩子但是我們不允許這樣子可是第三款我覺得主要也還是要去解決就是如果有個孩子受傷保姆送孩子去的時候我是主要照顧者那我帶著孩子去緊急就醫那當然還有一定會有人照顧因為第二款已經受限制一定要有人照顧所以我覺得第三款我認為是要去解決那個問題"},{"start":11814.998,"end":11829.702,"text":"就是要解決所以我們第二項才放一個說你也不可以丟小孩在家你一定要通報這個居托中心派人來所以我們允許他有但書緊急狀況可以但是還是要派人來是這樣子"},{"start":11836.093,"end":11863.246,"text":"欸那個抱歉我有提那個修正東營看一下因為我還是覺得你們把那個彈流緊急事件者不在此限放在法條裡面是很奇怪一件事情如果要放那是不是要有相關的一些一些辦法中文局問你要定出辦法出來不然這也很奇怪我有修正東營第七案"},{"start":11864.991,"end":11865.992,"text":"你要把它放進去"},{"start":11894.949,"end":11918.782,"text":"一個SOP還是什麼樣的辦法去定制不然你直接寫這樣我知道了不一定要照我的修正動議老師現在提醒說你們把這個如果有緊急事件不在此限"},{"start":11926.911,"end":11948.466,"text":"你那個例外的,應該是例外在這邊,不得的列一齊,然後例外的例外在這邊,直接寫到後面你知道,猜書啦,沒有寫歷史的寫法,就沒有辦法寫,因為現在這個已經在發生了"},{"start":11950.569,"end":11967.835,"text":"你第一項已經戴發折了但是他沒有緊急事件的時候變成我如果採訪後面去的我發折了第二項本來是沒有戴發折的對啊你第二項沒有戴發折"},{"start":11969.952,"end":11998.487,"text":"有啊 第二項你也有法則嘛第二項也有法則啊第二項應該有法則 他說他沒有通知 協助有啦 都有啦有啦 一定有的啦第二項沒有 對啊所以我如果把那個打開的話就會第二項要有法則啊他是緊急事件離開 但是他沒有通知安排那個 那也是要罰啊"},{"start":12002.002,"end":12011.486,"text":"還是這條要保留還是怎樣我這邊建議若有緊急事件須離開脫衣處所者則應主管機關所定製辦法為之"},{"start":12015.981,"end":12041.819,"text":"你都沒有跟自己說政治事件要先去定義你自己定一個辦法出來嘛可以吧跟召委報告我們建議是不是朝這個方向去修因為這個如同剛才王委員所提示的這個不可以離開托育儲物所應該是也是一個基本的原則啦所以我們是不是可以朝這個方向我們再去做一個文字的整理就是"},{"start":12043.58,"end":12065.429,"text":"這個序文的第一項序文就是應該在托育時間在托育處所專心托育不得有下列行為然後現我們現在修正的建議的文字第一款跟第二款都先維持那第三款的部分我們就先把它拿掉那改到第二項裡面"},{"start":12068.391,"end":12083.228,"text":"居家人員因緊急事件要離開托育服務處所前應該通知居家托育服務中心協助"},{"start":12085.072,"end":12111.349,"text":"受託兒童之照顧事宜那他就因為緊急的事件那我們就可以在第一個在說明欄的裡面把這個緊急事件的處理的部分大概一個觀念的定義我們就放在條文的說明欄裡面我們大概朝這樣的方式去做一個整理如果可以的話我們就趕快來做文字的調整以上"},{"start":12115.28,"end":12115.441,"text":"主席"},{"start":12130.412,"end":12157.227,"text":"來 請連行員我覺得寫這個有沒有有一種狀況是因為你現在變成是說本來是說如果他找不到人照顧的話他必須要請居福中心來做協助可是現在變成說好像他一定因為是因通知通知而且要協助一定要協助可是我跟他的距離今天每一個行政區只有一個甚至我想雲林好像也只有一個"},{"start":12158.288,"end":12172.645,"text":"居托中心還是兩個而已那服務員這麼廣大我怎麼可以到的了保母家除非他找不到人那比如說他帶到醫院的時候我趕快去醫院幫他帶小孩因為車程的關係還是要緊急救護如果我們等著"},{"start":12173.786,"end":12198.689,"text":"那個來照顧的我才可以帶孩子去就醫或送救護車我覺得這有一點時間差的矛盾會存在如果要寫當然一定要通知可是講說他一定要去協助照顧小孩他才可以離開的話這會有疑慮因為我們是搶命比較重要其他的要維護其他孩子安全可是搶命是我們第一要務可能要去考慮"},{"start":12203.26,"end":12218.906,"text":"可以先保留嗎 主席因為我覺得這還是有很多要討論因為我覺得事關孩子重大權益的都不應該倉促決定 以上剛剛就建議他們保留 他們就不會再說"},{"start":12222.472,"end":12237.762,"text":"好 委員會跟各位徵詢一下因為因為我們下面全部要處理的是華者的部分要不要給行政機關再去做對照我們之前通過的相關的一些一些法條然後我們對 下午兩點我們再繼續開始好不好還是怎樣 還是跟各位還是要繼續"},{"start":12252.625,"end":12262.509,"text":"好 那我們這一條一樣保留然後過去下午兩點繼續來做審查 那請行政機關就針對這個華澤跟對照沒有通過的法條 應該做一些調整吧下午兩點我們繼續開會 謝謝"},{"start":15915.174,"end":15917.019,"text":"MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":20767.959,"end":20785.607,"text":"好 我們下午繼續開會現在開始審查法則保留條文字57條開始審查那有院版還有這個相關的詳細詳簡表給各位做參考是不是我們針對第57條"},{"start":20795.004,"end":20820.482,"text":"請行政單位先做說明是第57條的部分那這個有配合前面的審查的部分跟配合第36條有甄列居托中心的工作人員那我們在這個在57條的部分我們也配合文字做甄列那這個建議就是依照我們有建議的文字那現在在有投影請各位委員可以參考"},{"start":20821.343,"end":20844.794,"text":"那罰則的部分的話那個處罰的程度的部分大概就都各委員的版本基本上都一樣那兩位委員看一下好不好第57條對螢幕上也有好 沒有意見喔"},{"start":20849.615,"end":20850.336,"text":"維穩第36條第一項6萬到60萬審訊虐待警戒重大可以嗎 林議員"},{"start":20874.929,"end":20888.203,"text":"可以喔 OK 好那 57 條我們依照行政院提案及委員署內提案修正通過繼續審查條文保留條文第 58 條然後修正動議是第一案"},{"start":20889.617,"end":20890.998,"text":"請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":20919.677,"end":20946.169,"text":"那其他的部分我們現在是沒有調整那在修正跟委員的版本差異的部分那主要是和林玉琴林委員的版本在這個處罰額度的金額的部分那我們是建議是不是有可能還是先維持這個照行政院版的平衡維持在六萬到三十萬的罰款以上好 國務院可是意見那請林玉琴"},{"start":20948.971,"end":20962.824,"text":"我這邊同意 因為之前有先溝通過好那第58條我們就依照行政院提案修正通過繼續審查保留條文第60條請行政機關做說明第59條"},{"start":20972.376,"end":20999.396,"text":"第59條的部分那這個部分也是先前因為要配合這個11條44條45條50條的條文那當時是因為第50條是保留的那剛才在早上的時候第50條已經修正完成那主要在所以我們配合第50條我們建議文字有一個調整就是在第4款的最後"},{"start":21000.097,"end":21020.454,"text":"我們會建議甄列幾個文字就是暫停托育服務這個早上在審查的時候因為有那個要配合是不是本來是規定是只要求有院版的條文只要求暫停新收那早上審查的時候是有配合要到暫停托育服務"},{"start":21021.295,"end":21046.696,"text":"那我們就配合這個文字的部分處理和做一個甄列那其他的部分大概就跟原版原來的文字相同那其他前面涉及的條文大概都已經審查通過以上好兩位委員有沒有其他意見沒有好那我們就第五十九條就是依照行政院提案來修正通過繼續審查條保留條文第六十條"},{"start":21049.778,"end":21064.577,"text":"而第60條因為涉及到第38條和39條目前的那個前面的條還在保留我們建議這條是不是暫時先保留 以上好 兩位有沒有其他意見先保留繼續審查"},{"start":21067.93,"end":21097.419,"text":"保留條文第61條然後修正動議是第9案請行政機關做說明第61條的話是針對違反第30條所定的相關的包括了19條29條30條49條相關對應的罰則那其中現在主要是因為第30條現在還在保留狀態所以我們建議是不是這個第61條其實也暫時先保留先保留 各位沒見沒有 我們就保留"},{"start":21098.177,"end":21098.478,"text":"繼續審查條文第62條"},{"start":21111.28,"end":21137.706,"text":"而第62條的部分那也是一樣有因為是涉及到違反第30條51條和54條的規定那因為第30條目前還是在保留我們建議是不是先維持保留以上第62條有沒有其他意見沒有第62條就先行保留我們繼續來處理"},{"start":21141.035,"end":21170.135,"text":"保留條文第六十三條修正東醫師第十三案請行政機關做說明第六十三條的部分先前是因為有涉及到違反第十一條的部分的處罰那第十一條的部分早先前討論已經通過那我們配合審議已經通過的第十一條的文字我們在第六十三條的第二項我們有配合做一些增訂的文字也現在有現在先投影出來請各位可以一併參考"},{"start":21171.116,"end":21198.951,"text":"就是我們會甄列現在有甄列了紅字的部分或依第十一條第二項規定向主管機關申請暫停收拖登記期間提供居家服務者就是把那個行為的太樣配合第十一條第二項的文字我們做一個甄列以上那其他的部分就沒有做修正那我們請委員參考來 請問委員有沒有其他意見"},{"start":21201.055,"end":21206.571,"text":"你這個修正就是說停止收拖期間結果他還在違法收拖嘛對不對是"},{"start":21210.453,"end":21235.893,"text":"那你們的我看一下我們有個修正就是說這一條要處理是這兩種狀況沒有托育人員資格也沒有登記或者是有托育人員資格沒有登記所以關鍵是他有沒有托育人員這個資格而不是居家托育人員資格所以第一項第二項的主詞應該是說不具托育專業人員資格"},{"start":21239.156,"end":21258.648,"text":"第二項應該也是具托業專業人員資格而不是居家兩個字托育專業重點應該是不具托育專業人員資格你的居家托育四個字應該是用托育專業字換掉吧"},{"start":21265.035,"end":21292.151,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們之所以沒有再去調整把居家托育人員的這個文字調整托育專業人員那主要是因為居家托育人員他在提供服務的時候他資格的部分確實和機構托育人員現在的資格是一樣的但是在登記的時候那居家托育人員和在機構的登記的流程是分開"},{"start":21293.312,"end":21314.22,"text":"所以我們會建議這邊在文字上面的話是不是可以維持用居家托育人員效果還是會一樣這個是不會有問題但是因為這個在登記管理的在行政登記管理實務上的時候它最後都是用居家托育人員的這個方式去做登記和管理"},{"start":21314.88,"end":21329.552,"text":"跟機構的托育人員是分軌來做不同的登記所以我們會建議是不是文字可以還是使用居家托育人員這樣的文字 以上不是 居家托育人員資格是指他有登記嗎你們的這個"},{"start":21332.514,"end":21349.986,"text":"第二項 具居家投獄人員資格他後面就是為第二項的話就是沒有依照第11條去辦理登記所以他是有資格沒登記那第一項就是沒資格也沒登 章案也無從登記那都會要去處罰"},{"start":21351.027,"end":21374.539,"text":"第一項是沒有資格也沒有登記第二項是有資格沒登記這個資格不就是所謂托育專業人員的資格嗎為什麼叫做居家托育人員資格是什麼意思我們的名詞是叫托育專業人員我們的名詞是叫做居家托育人員資格嗎"},{"start":21385.781,"end":21397.315,"text":"具資格應該是具托育專業人員我們在名詞定義上不是都講托育專業人員資格我們這裡講的是這個名詞的統一"},{"start":21418.891,"end":21419.953,"text":"因為你們的居家貴人是只有荷花的人"},{"start":21437.409,"end":21459.176,"text":"那請行政官說明就是居家托育人員資格是什麼意思這個因為主要是因為考慮到在先前的時候有參照這個委員版的條文已經在這個現在這個條文還沒有編條次但是位置在第44條之前"},{"start":21460.956,"end":21489.129,"text":"已經單獨有列一個條文就是居家托育人員及機構托育人員因成年並具備下列資格之一所以他的資格現在是兩種人員分開並列雖然內容是一樣但是他的條文現在是寫在一起所以我們會建議是說是不是有可能因為這個部分要再處理的時候而且未來在登記實務上的時候也是這樣子去分開來做登記是 是喔"},{"start":21497.796,"end":21498.078,"text":"政治內容不一樣"},{"start":21505.713,"end":21533.309,"text":"我們43條就是在講最後一項就是講托育專業人員及居家托育服務中心工作人員的資格這相關事項給你們辦嘛所以我們講是托育專業人員居家托育人員及機構托育人員所以不包含主管"},{"start":21534.258,"end":21552.675,"text":"不包含主管是這個意思嗎是不包含主管居家的話不會有主管居家的話托育人員也不會有主管寫托育專業人員也是啊就是說"},{"start":21555.441,"end":21568.884,"text":"托育專業人員照現在第二條的定義會包含到好啦我知道用行政院的建議版本啦否則用專業人員又涵蓋太多了反正這樣子不要聚焦啦好 有沒有其他意見"},{"start":21578.117,"end":21606.129,"text":"如果沒有我們第63條就依照另外跟主席還有各位委員報告一下這個我們剛才我們法治我們承擔是跟我們提醒了一下在文字的部分有一個地方似乎有罪制就是在第一項裡面他條文定義違反第11條第一項規定後面未辦理登記好像需要刪掉因為這類人沒有資格其實是無從登記"},{"start":21607.009,"end":21618.218,"text":"所以他一定就是未具資格提供服務所以未辦理登記這幾個字是需要刪除因為不具資格不具資格更不用登記第一項"},{"start":21620.802,"end":21642.183,"text":"所以未辦理登記而六個字需要刪除對對對對這邊我想就教一下因為過往我知道到底怎麼採取如果保姆收五個以上你們是採取用托育機構托育中心採取那三個用保姆嗎我先釐清一下因為五個以上就是機構了嘛"},{"start":21643.038,"end":21662.472,"text":"因為她是在住家裡邊所以我想釐清一下這樣子才會很清楚我的地方真的採儲是依著這樣的採儲嗎因為已經是變機構機構的法則非常重那已經一個人帶了這麼多小孩她一個保母她事實上是可是她的空間沒有審核過她一定是居家"},{"start":21663.634,"end":21688.045,"text":"不管怎麼樣他還是帶了這麼多小孩已經是用托嬰中心的規模甚至我們過去還看到帶八個小孩的那你是用機構財主比較重一點怎麼一個人帶八個小孩照理講一個人帶四個可是他本來就是不合格的保姆又是不合格的場地然後也沒去登記所以你們是用什麼財主五以下我個人認為是要用保姆OK"},{"start":21689.666,"end":21701.218,"text":"因為那個裁罰比較低如果他在五個以上的話應該就是要因為他們有時候他們會聘人進來可是他就是用居家的規模可是不對啊你已經做成是機構啦"},{"start":21702.526,"end":21725.31,"text":"是 如同委員提示那他如果我們現在因為機構的分野就是用超五個人打五個人的時候他就是要做機構的立案所以不管是有沒有資格所以居家保姆我們現在規定也是只能收到四所以只要超過五就是用未立案機構處罰在哪一條有寫"},{"start":21729.253,"end":21740.488,"text":"在剛才通過的59條特別去訓練是不是我們有把它分別出來"},{"start":21745.886,"end":21769.78,"text":"好那這樣我就很放心所以就是5以上就是用未立案機構5以下超過保姆可收容人數例如說一位保姆收到4個也許全天那就是用保姆超收好5以上是含苦還是沒有含可以吧"},{"start":21771.451,"end":21789.447,"text":"不好意思主席讓我問一個問題我想問一個就是說保姆有時候他小小的違規然後他乾脆停掉因為停掉海闊天空因為你們就不會再去來看我了反而我要怎麼操作我要怎麼樣都可以因為沒有後續追蹤"},{"start":21790.928,"end":21810.761,"text":"那所以過往實務經驗會覺得說你停止我更好那我乾脆我自己就出來停歇業我不要再持續領你們的登記證然後因為後續地方政府都沒追蹤那這樣子的話除非他有一天就被抓到說他又是沒有登記的"},{"start":21812.563,"end":21826.036,"text":"他具有資格他沒有登記可是他一直在收託小孩因為他有一些違規的狀態後來被你們有逮到後來他就說那我乾脆也不要了反正我就停停辦停辦這個那停辦真的是更好耶"},{"start":21827.29,"end":21850.95,"text":"所以我不知道說這你們條文有沒有搭配是說如果停辦之後我大概就會抽查還是停辦之後反正他就跟我say bye bye然後呢他從此海闊天空政府也不會來干擾他他也不用接受一年四例房還是五例房還六例房更不需要反正他照樣收小孩因為他一直口碑很好帶的小孩很多可是常常"},{"start":21852.913,"end":21878.27,"text":"小錯呢不斷大錯呢可能沒犯可是有的大錯呢他操作很嚴重反正又抓不到他所以我不知道你們這個後端的有特別去做搭配的處理嗎跟委員報告目前我們現在有大概有幾個機制對於這樣的行為來做一些處理那第一個就是目前我們本來就有一個系統讓民眾來查詢這個保姆的狀況"},{"start":21879.691,"end":21898.404,"text":"所以民眾只要有需要就可以在我們現在的那個網站上面資訊系統讓民眾去查詢他現在找到的是不是有經過登記的合格保姆這個部分服務是已經有提供的民眾可以來做查詢那第二個是因為現在有這個"},{"start":21899.545,"end":21925.908,"text":"有托育補助的制度的設計所以如果說這個家庭裡面是有在領取托育補助的那托育補助的時候那這個家裡領托育補助他的小朋友是放在哪裡給哪一個是托育機構還是保姆來托育我們在系統上都是要登記勾結的所以這個部分在如果他是同時有托育補助的部分這邊我們是可以勾結得到"},{"start":21926.528,"end":21952.795,"text":"那當然也不排除就是會有一些比較極端的狀況那這個部分我們會跟地方政府來做一個合作盡量的來加強這個相關沒有做登記的部分的查查以上好還有其他問題嗎那如果沒有我們六三條就依照行政院提案來修正通過繼續審查保留條文第六四條"},{"start":21954.715,"end":21977.135,"text":"請行政機關做說明第64條的條文主要原來是因為配合第36條有保留所以文字有當時是先沒有審那第36條主要是需要增列居家托育服務中心相關的文字那這個部分我們對於文字都已經整理完畢"},{"start":21978.036,"end":22002.817,"text":"那而配合36條條整我們同時有稍微修幾個字就是因為36條的相次的關係有針列對受託兒童有第36條第一項鎖定的等等行為我們有把文字配合第36通過的文字做一個整理所以目前是大概前端行政作用的部分條文已經沒有保留的狀況公務員參考"},{"start":22006.421,"end":22027.034,"text":"一點小小的問題而已 63條那邊可不可以把逗號刪掉 這樣子會比較完整不具居家托育人員資格逗號違反第11條第一項規定而提供把那個逗號跟未辦理登記都刪掉而不會有加逗號 有一點怪謝謝主席"},{"start":22040.787,"end":22045.629,"text":"可以啦 沒見到那個舊蚊子就是那個痘痘要再修掉了這請行政機關醫事組再修一下 等一下再再來處理我們針對64條"},{"start":22074.169,"end":22090.584,"text":"對 請說剛才有說明因為第36條後來有增訂第二項的文字所以我們在後面第一個是配合修正有增列一個變成36條第一項那就因為處罰的對象有增列到居家托育服務中心的工作人員所以我們文字也配合整理進去"},{"start":22092.489,"end":22111.638,"text":"對 我要講就是說我們這個處罰分成兩種一種就是情節重大一個就是非屬情節重大但是因為幼照法的經驗他們在教保人員條例裡面就是因為沒有列入非情節重大和情節重大之外他們沒有列入情節輕微時的處理規範"},{"start":22115.6,"end":22132.85,"text":"我們情節輕微並不是說去調處而是還是要懲處但是這裡講的是要不要公佈姓名在幼照法裡面講的是導致一些個案實際上真的是情節輕微但是只有非屬情節重大案情節重大案兩種狀況所以"},{"start":22134.971,"end":22156.252,"text":"即便用非屬情節重大的狀況去處理還是公佈姓名所以大家也覺得說會不會過重就是因為借鏡到幼照法的經驗所以我們脫蒙裡面脫蒙主張就是說我們是不是考量到這個違法情節相對輕微則不是相對輕微則就是輕微則"},{"start":22158.234,"end":22169.684,"text":"他在法律面我們這部法裡面要求行為人要接受兒童輔導管教等相關課程其實他的處分勤解輕微他的處分就叫他去上課那不予裁處罰還這一種的沒有罰他錢"},{"start":22176.59,"end":22198.128,"text":"然後叫他去上課的這一種我們是不是在於這個違反第45條規定身心虐待以外的行為那經地方政府地方主管機關認為其情節輕微為以前項規定處罰者得依46條規定為必要的處置就是說就是得依這個第16條的規定去處置"},{"start":22209.905,"end":22233.053,"text":"其實也是為了要因為他情節輕微所以會鼓勵負責人和知悉托育相關人員對兒童有尚非情節重大的違法行為的時候因為他可能不會公佈然後只是上課然後沒有罰沒有罰還所以主動讓這些人其實第一線的人看到可以主動的通報主管機關這樣子"},{"start":22235.394,"end":22253.346,"text":"也主動通報然後因為你本來就情節輕微就上課和不罰錢所以在這種狀況我們是不是允許他可以採取第46條規定的這個必要處置就是托盟的版本我們的版本的第二項放上去"},{"start":22257.577,"end":22283.864,"text":"跟委員報告抱歉是院版的第37我們的46但是院版跟委員報告因為現在其實在院版的37這個已經通過了條文我們是針對這些情節輕微的比較輕微的部分它就是已經有一個處置的方式包括受相關的教育訓練或者其他相關的措施"},{"start":22285.084,"end":22312.798,"text":"我的意思是說對我們如果犯這一條的能不能就是說不公佈沒有沒有這個不會公佈沒有抱歉是違反第45條規定我們的版本是違反第45條規定身心虐待以外的行為經執行事先是主管機關任期勤解輕微為以前向規定處罰者得依46條規定為必要的處置"},{"start":22314.039,"end":22319.74,"text":"可以让他这个137条的规定处置而不是用这一条啦因为如果没有这样写的话就变成非情节重大和情节重大然后就是这样子但是如果违反第第45条的37还是45院版第"},{"start":22342.274,"end":22357.187,"text":"跟委員報告因為也許是院版和委員版本的那個結構稍微會定的結構稍微有一點點不一樣的地方所以如果依照從院版的角度結構的角度來看的話如果對應到委員版的"},{"start":22357.687,"end":22382.995,"text":"36和37抱歉我現在搞清楚36和37那對應到委員版的那個條文的話其實我們在設計上這類的個案其實它本來因為它不會被定位為64條所謂的有這個違反第36條的狀況所以它自然就不會有公佈姓名的問題所以這個部分的話應該最後的效果應該會跟委員版的這個效果應該會相當"},{"start":22384.854,"end":22390.921,"text":"違反第36條的罰則不是落在現在這一個64條嗎然後這裡不就只有非情節重大和情節重大"},{"start":22399.523,"end":22415.912,"text":"你们假如说如果到时候罚上课所以因为如果是在院版的话他的行为就是属于第37条再对应到院版的话就是委本到37条所以他后面的这个相关的处置那就是"},{"start":22418.163,"end":22426.211,"text":"直接效果我們就寫在37條裡面就是他要去上課要去做相關的輔導我看一下37條37條來 請裡面請委員"},{"start":22432.304,"end":22458.213,"text":"剛剛這邊講說非情節重大就不會去公佈該機構名稱幼少法還是會公佈只是時效會比較短因為它畢竟還是牽扯到體罰 霸凌 性騷不當管教即便行為輕可是我覺得家長還是有知識的權利他到底要不要送進去所以只是說他公佈的時間會比較短"},{"start":22460.294,"end":22489.604,"text":"所以我不認為說不公佈耶因為他畢竟還是犯了這個問題啊所以可是你們這邊就說不公佈機構的名稱可是幼照法是公佈啊不予公佈該機構名稱啊負責人主動通報他還是有一些管理上的問題為什麼可以不通那個因為我覺得他還是四射管理上的所以幼照法還是公佈的"},{"start":22506.449,"end":22522.533,"text":"跟委員說明那我們那個第64條後面的但書當時候是為了希望負責人不要隱匿通報所以才會有這個但書規定那在這之前的文字都是要公佈行為人姓名跟所屬機構的名字名稱"},{"start":22524.595,"end":22540.294,"text":"那只是補充去說明說如果他是主動通報的話就不予公告該機構的名稱那以上說話再說回來本來你的專業人員本來每一個人就責任通報人為什麼還要說你獎勵獎勵他他本來就是"},{"start":22540.834,"end":22564.71,"text":"一個責任通報人不是嗎不是獎勵是說怕他隱匿不通報可是他所有的老師在裡邊的人每一個人都要通報連負責人都是營造做這樣的工作的人他就應該要通報可能用這樣的理由說因為他通報那如果說我今天通報什麼東西我通報我自己打孩子的話那就我就不用受到任何罰則"},{"start":22568.231,"end":22574.757,"text":"所以我覺得說如果比照幼照法它事實上是要公佈的只是說時間上比較短而已來 林委員"},{"start":22580.987,"end":22606.595,"text":"我現在來回頭來看36條36條是講說這個托育相關人員不得對兒童有身心虐待體罰這些不當對待的行為嘛36條就只是講這樣子37條也講說你有犯36條的狀況的時候我要希望你這個接受這個教育或者課程或其他符合教育或輔導目的的措施就是說要處分"},{"start":22607.884,"end":22622.384,"text":"但是情節認定終身不得擔任托育人員的處分就不能適用這個那我們現在講的就是說如果犯有36條裡面的你64條是講說情節不重大的話要罰錢"},{"start":22624.446,"end":22651.361,"text":"然後要公布這個機構的名稱但是這個主管機關知悉前你就通報我就不公告你的名稱現在是這樣講那我的意思是說那你現在狀況整個處罰的機制就只有情節不重大然後就是罰錢然後公布然後情節重大當然處分得更嚴格啦但我的意思是說有一種情節輕微"},{"start":22653.769,"end":22673.72,"text":"然後甚至是不予裁處罰錢的然後你也要給他我們意思是說不要公佈名稱然後鼓勵負責人和這個相關人員通報這樣子否則他們一定就是盈利嘛"},{"start":22680.925,"end":22694.735,"text":"所以現在就只有情節非重大和情節重大都沒有寫到情節輕微的啦我的意思是說我們是不是要在這個裡面再有一個就是情節輕微的我們就用這個37條處理就好了就不要再到64條"},{"start":22714.284,"end":22719.507,"text":"就是情節輕微我們認定就是說他可能被罰要上課但是沒有被罰錢那我們就用37條的上課的這樣就處理了否則的話通通都要跑情節輕微通通要跑到64條來情節輕微也是要跑到64條來"},{"start":22743.939,"end":22751.757,"text":"因為現在沒有定義說情節輕微就用原來的37條罰他上課就好了"},{"start":22769.71,"end":22776.218,"text":"因為37條講的就是違反第36條然後要處以輔導管教上課這一些的其實你們認為只要上課的這種情況會是情節重大或非屬重大嗎"},{"start":22791.107,"end":22815.479,"text":"如果只是要罰他上課這就不是情節重大但是還有一種叫非屬情節重大就是因為幼照法裡面實際上發生的就是情節輕微但也不是就非屬情節重大更不是情節重大處分起來就覺得過重是因為幼照法有這一種問題"},{"start":22825.031,"end":22831.222,"text":"因為教育部在幼照法那邊就是認為說只是要他去上課的都是情節輕微的"},{"start":22838.335,"end":22862.236,"text":"跟委員報告其實在立法的策略上面大概原來的構想確實是我們認為如果他的違法違規情節是比較輕微那我們也確實也是傾向於不需要把他的這個行為去做公佈以上課等等的方式來處理所以我們當時的想法是說如果他是屬於他是可以依照用37條的方式"},{"start":22864.017,"end":22888.449,"text":"他就去上課所以這個部分是不是在文字上面如果需要的話我們是不是有可能在第64條的文字稍微再去做一點處理把它和37條就是已經依照37條去上過課的這樣的一個概念在第64條裡面去把它加進來"},{"start":22889.629,"end":22911.354,"text":"有可能或者是到37條裡面去加或者是到64條不過因為37條先前已經討論通過啦所以可能在目前在64條這個部分直接就加條文的這個處罰的限制上面可能是比較可以那是不是容我們把文字做一點處理我們稍後再來跟委員再討論先保留好了ok好好64條保留那接下來66條"},{"start":22920.025,"end":22920.88,"text":"为父母请说明"},{"start":22925.622,"end":22952.757,"text":"65條在前一次會議就在先前審查已經有通過那第66條的部分因為它其中的罰則有涉及到一個是第16條還有一個是先前還有一個條文是在討論的時候會增列的一個條文就是剛才在罰則前最後一條那個專心托育的條文那那個條文現在這兩個條文都還在保留"},{"start":22953.337,"end":22957.574,"text":"所以我們建議66條是不是可以先行保留以上"},{"start":22963.624,"end":22983.482,"text":"好 66條保留 那接下來去審67條 惟副武警說明好 67條的部分那主要先前保留的條文大概都已經審查通過了那但是我們在文字的部分有做一些配合前面審查的結果做些審理 那有"},{"start":22984.282,"end":22992.409,"text":"現在我們文字有投影在這個螢幕上那第一個是第一款的部分那要配合條次的整理從20條的19條20條第5項要修正成20條第6項"},{"start":22999.515,"end":23021.364,"text":"第二个是第四款的部分36条因为有增列项次所以需要明定为36条第一项文字需要增列第三个是第46款有关违反第48条原来第二项也配合条次项次的调整需要修正为第三项"},{"start":23022.564,"end":23051.383,"text":"最后一个是我们在这条有增订一项文字那就是针对居家托育服务中心如果在受委托的时候有相关的情形包括他的人员没有做通报或者是在聘雇人员没有去做查询以及聘雇的异动没有报请主管机关备查这三种样态"},{"start":23051.963,"end":23070.477,"text":"那因為先前並沒有列到相關罰則的處罰的規定我們在這邊我們也去把這個罰則的規定就甄列在本條所以甄列一個第二項那罰罰還的額度那也是跟第一項一樣維持在一萬元以上一萬五萬元以下以上報告"},{"start":23081.021,"end":23083.322,"text":"我們的意見是這樣子的就是說"},{"start":23106.894,"end":23129.904,"text":"要新增第一項裡面第二款好不好就是說違反第18條第4項規定未經主管機關核准招收其他兒童的是不是能夠新增進去就是說我們這個原條文沒有處罰沒有經主管機關核准就自行招收其他幼兒的這個是不是放進去有嗎18條第4項"},{"start":23137.56,"end":23138.483,"text":"沒有放進去嗎好你看一下然後第二個呢就是說"},{"start":23145.785,"end":23166.334,"text":"好像沒有放進去第二個就是說實務上曾經發生過地方政府承辦阻止居家多域服務中心的通報那在講說未來如果要發生也發生類似的事情那第二項規定要怎麼處理也要罰中心嗎所以我們"},{"start":23169.215,"end":23188.739,"text":"也參照一下就建議參照教育部當時韓式的這個經驗規範如果中心已經擅近督導管理職責的話就不予處罰就是說在這個新增的裡面然後紅字的裡面的第一款第一款是不是"},{"start":23190.356,"end":23200.165,"text":"第一款的通報的後面再加上但居家托育服務中心以善盡督導管理之責而不予處罰因為曾經發生過他們通報但是社會局的承辦阻止他們通報"},{"start":23216.351,"end":23241.767,"text":"這個放在這邊好像不太因為這邊講的是要處罰哪些情況下要處罰你現在又在講的是免處罰因為他已經實務上發生就是他有通報但人家叫他不要通報他就已經有督導有通報了但是是上面的縣市政府的承辦曾經阻止過"},{"start":23242.486,"end":23244.13,"text":"要不要再別調處理因為這調處理的話有點"},{"start":23246.775,"end":23271.65,"text":"就是說而且不能用那個字眼叫未三進那個督導責任上方等於事實上是社會局是他頂頭上司那他會變說我是下方我是一個督導又不是我督導員工我已經三進跟我督導員工講可是督導員工講話你還是有法定責任他事實上通報是法定責任這個實務上是說法定責任他通報但上面的"},{"start":23272.751,"end":23295.179,"text":"不讓他通報他這個責任是誰因為這個是參採教育部的韓式的經驗要不要等我一下我找一下是不是教育部的韓式看能不能找出來給大家看一下就是他的規範就是如中心已經善盡督導管理之責然後也通報的話你應該是還要處罰他嗎"},{"start":23302.093,"end":23322.237,"text":"通報就不需要那個沒有完成因為上面的人不讓他繼續那個到最後那個案件沒有列案那他應該去通報社會局這個人社會局不讓他那個所以我在講你等我一下我叫他們找韓市出來一下看一下教育部因為教育部的有這個那個韓市"},{"start":23330.936,"end":23356.476,"text":"那等淑芬委員再找我們就保留一下好了這個先說明一下剛才淑芬委員所提到的在第一項的第二款是不是要增列這個所謂叫做未經主管機關核准招收其他兒童那這個基本上是針對這個機關的這種機關互助式托育或者是"},{"start":23357.856,"end":23374.364,"text":"因為他是對應到院版的條應該在第十應該在第十八條第四項那十八條第四項的話是有規範到這個政府去設立的托嬰中心有相關的這個招收的順序"},{"start":23376.127,"end":23386.723,"text":"那這個部分的話如果有有違反這個順序的話是要不要去做是不是要去處罰這個機構啊那我們目前是並沒有"},{"start":23389.828,"end":23411.639,"text":"那没有处分的话我们订这个18条第4项要干嘛因为这个部分因为他是属于政府机关自己本来自己就公立的设立所以通常而且通常这一类的话大概在招收的时候大概也都会是以"},{"start":23412.419,"end":23431.478,"text":"以这个像条文里面所列到的包括员工的被亲属需要协助或者是托婴中心自己的员工子女大概都几乎都是以这样的一个概念我的意思是说我们在法律里面明定了这个收托的优先顺序"},{"start":23432.759,"end":23459.06,"text":"对不对那如果你没有罚则那这个这一条18条这个收托的优先顺序定这个法优先顺序不好啊这个等于参考用的参考用的我们干嘛定那我们18条那个应该是也不用放进去的因为只是参考用的变成道德劝说的"},{"start":23461.584,"end":23488.219,"text":"因為他事實上那時候我先把我們自己的這個員工的全部都招滿了或者是長官的全部都先收了你不知道現在這個我們立法院這個一個月兩千那如果像台大的脫英他們台大的員工台大的學生一個月五百品質又好然後又近然後大家都爭著要去"},{"start":23491.223,"end":23511,"text":"比如说是这样子结果你们说我们要优先什么什么结果里面都优先长官的或是其他的你们想一下因为这样子没有放上去的话没有处分的话我们的第18条好像形同虚定了"},{"start":23513.649,"end":23533.36,"text":"而且不是只有政府機關設定也包含一般的民間企業也是一樣我們講說違法違法又怎麼樣違法又沒有罰則就是不是只有政府而且包括法人也就是有一些公司如果設定企業托育結果去收非員工的子女也沒有罰則但是他違法違法沒有罰則"},{"start":23543.211,"end":23563.119,"text":"法人以外民間企業也是啊但是這個18條他原來這邊是針對政府機關他不是民間法人針對政府機關他設立了拖音中心然後政府設立的他第一個他的員工這個沒有問題嗎"},{"start":23564.195,"end":23571,"text":"沒有這裡並不是只有公立的他是講說你看第18條是講說第一個是政府機關過得設立托嬰中心"},{"start":23577.863,"end":23594.011,"text":"但是一般人設立托嬰中心的話要取得主管機關許可但是你講的順序它是寫在政府機關購政府機關購裡面如果說的話有優先順序但這裡面最後一項第四項是講學校法人"},{"start":23594.911,"end":23614.286,"text":"醫院或商業商業機構一般民間企業依性供法去訂的也算喔所以最後一項並不是只有政府機關構最後一項第四項講的是連一般企業一般企業民間企業也包含在裡面"},{"start":23620.718,"end":23636.059,"text":"我們跟委員報告一下如果是這樣子的話我們建議是不是就聚焦在第18條第3項政府機關構去設立的拖延重點沒有啦 你聽不懂我說的就是我們就是要規範民間可能"},{"start":23637.921,"end":23653.519,"text":"第四項才是更那個第四項是說你設立了企業裡面的托嬰中心以招收其所屬員工與其簽訂契約辦理聯合托育者所屬員工的直系血清杯清數為主"},{"start":23654.827,"end":23674.558,"text":"那如果你招收外面收的錢更多你如果說立法院收兩千那你收到外面收五千八千或是說台大裡面的收五百那台大外面的收五千他有可能就是說我先收錢比較收的比較多收入比較多的啊那但是違規的話沒有罰則啊他有可能違規的話沒有罰則啊就違反這個兒童法"},{"start":23686.567,"end":23711.301,"text":"他本来是我们希望鼓励性工法里面在企业里面办托育是希望他收托自己员工的子女但是有可能他说我对外收的费用比较多自己员工收的比较少但是我要优先去收这个非员工的子女我要以前收的多的为主那你要怎么处分没有得处分"},{"start":23713.76,"end":23722.813,"text":"所以我們才說我們這裡談的是說違反第18條第4項未經主管機關核准而遭受其他兒童"},{"start":23724.228,"end":23744.651,"text":"微博部可以解釋一下你們的企託這個到底是不是本來就是要收他裡邊的人是有什麼條件才會去開放外邊不會本末倒置剛剛淑芬委員擔心我記得事實上是本來就有條件條件一定是內部的人到什麼條件還要經過你們允許才可以收外邊的不是嗎"},{"start":23745.354,"end":23767.84,"text":"跟兩位委員報告跟委員報告這個第18條第三項第四項它本來就是設定的目的就是一個偏鼓勵性的措施那就是本來不一定會到本來一般的這個拖曳機構拖曳機構就是民間自己來設立所以它可能自己要找場地可能要找地方"},{"start":23768.42,"end":23794.342,"text":"所以在政府部門學校法人醫院或商業他可以去有一些如果他要服務照顧自己的同仁或者有一些相關的那可以用這樣的場地來做那在這個他基本上是一個比較偏鼓勵的性質但是既然是鼓勵那麼他原來的目的就是能夠照顧包括像自己的員工包括像一些需要協助的兒童那而在先前審議的時候"},{"start":23795.763,"end":23822.305,"text":"也包括了就是因为在这个托婴中心里面工作的员工的子女然后去稳定这个托婴中心的呃工作人员的流动那大概从这样几个角度去做思考那所以如果说今天我们在这个认为因为这些情那当然因为这样的管理的关系所以他去设立的他就是要经过主管机都是需要经过主管机关的核准"},{"start":23822.885,"end":23851.033,"text":"那他离这个托婴中心的内容他的设立的标准其实和民间基本上是几乎是相当的那这个如果说因为是这些鼓励去设立的机构那他在收托的顺序上面比外面还要因为如果是外面一般的私托他就随这个只要是只要是这个孩童他通通可以收就比较没有顺序的部分那这个"},{"start":23852.433,"end":23867.08,"text":"相較起來的話等於是對這些不管是像醫院或者商業他本來可能會使用自己空間來去設立托育機構這樣鼓勵的效果我們是比較怕說是不是會有一點折扣"},{"start":23867.68,"end":23891.585,"text":"那政府部门的话因为毕竟是政府还是有一个这个带头跟表率性的作用我们建议是不是在如果要处罚的话是不是就先针对第18条第三项没有你一直都听不懂我们讲的话你现在讲说我一直在讲说外面的这个商业的民间企业的你还说他们要核准才能收拖"},{"start":23892.265,"end":23911.189,"text":"我們一直鼓勵企業在自己的公司內部辦理收拖然後穩定員工的這個心情啊讓人家可敬性高一點嘛而且還要核准才能收拖可是你核准才能收拖然後沒有罰則這樣對不對我核准你了要以這個員工啦或者是這個保母的小孩為優先然後但是呢我核准你這樣子了結果你沒有罰則"},{"start":23922.052,"end":23941.668,"text":"這個就形同虛定了再來就是說你到最後變成說本末倒置本來是要就近要鼓勵的結果變成說到最後他覺得這個就是一個賠錢不賺錢的地方所以我要收外面的小孩比收自己員工的數量還要多的時候他有可能到最後會變成這樣子如果沒有罰則的話"},{"start":23944.732,"end":23961.333,"text":"這個我有不一樣的意見就是說剛剛主管機關有講我們現在其實真的是需要去鼓勵更多的政府機關或者是企業他投入來附設這樣的一個托嬰中心這個其實是對於員工很好的福利政策"},{"start":23961.914,"end":23981.148,"text":"那这样的一个政策我个人也比较倾向是要从奖励的角度包括化学劳动部都应该要更奖励就是跟卫福部这边来合作就是去设那如果基于奖励的性质在隔脱专法去很严格的然后说要定"},{"start":23981.989,"end":24009.161,"text":"法則對像是這一些我們鼓勵政府機關跟企業願意自行再去設這一些拖曳設施的單位的話我覺得這樣在政策面可能會有就是你不僅沒有辦法去推展反而大家想說會動輒的就那算了就是不想設我覺得這個要考量這個政策的後座力跟效果那至於剛剛淑芬委員一直在講說有一些"},{"start":24009.901,"end":24031.888,"text":"可能他就沒有辦法達到那個比例原則既然他是企業所設立的當然是企業員工優先嗎就是實務上你們現在有發現是企業設的然後他魚目混珠去大量招收外面反而禁止員工的子女或者是百般阻擾不讓他們加入這個設施嗎實務上有沒有發現"},{"start":24036.018,"end":24049.095,"text":"我想這個過去推企託就是非常難非常難因為企業通常不會要去設企託為什麼因為我今年員工有十個人懷孕生小孩明年呢是零後年也是零的時候"},{"start":24050.157,"end":24064.255,"text":"會過往很難推動就是我沒有辦法預估說我人又聘進來了聘進來之後我不能隨時叫他說那你可能就會失業所以為什麼企圖所以我們上次看到數據大概都是說我給你錢貼補你"},{"start":24065.777,"end":24094.479,"text":"可是我自己比較涉因為企業有社會責任說他可以採取好幾種方式那勞動部那邊數據大概比較多的呈現的是還是給補助所以我個人也是比較不贊成因為而且企託我記得是有明文規定說一定要收自己的然後如果有真的是那我完全收不到我自己內部的孩子的時候還要請求要去做一些申請才可以收外邊的才有辦法所以大家也比較不會發生"},{"start":24096.28,"end":24115.15,"text":"剛剛蘇貞委員提的那種狀況啦因為真的企託我們知道他沒有辦法預估他每一年的孩子生的量所以他勢必有時候真的是這樣量沒有的時候他為了人這邊我聘的工作人員他畢竟還是在的話那他就必須要收外邊可是要經過政府核准蘇貞委員好那我們訂18條第4項要幹什麼"},{"start":24122.15,"end":24142.793,"text":"因为我们第18条第4项就是告诉大家说你就是要严优先收拖我们的员工的直系血清杯清暑为主然后得收拖人数有余的时候才报请主管机关同意再死的招收其他的孩子那为什么企业里面要办这个是因为职场互助嘛"},{"start":24143.314,"end":24160.245,"text":"而且企业在办这个的时候企业的场地条件也比较宽松在幼儿园的部分都已经发生了并不是没有幼儿园里面已经发生了业者去承办企业员工幼儿园其实企业没有办法办其实都委托业者去办"},{"start":24161.326,"end":24183.685,"text":"那其實你都不要覺得說這個會企業自己辦他一定是委託出去他委託出去而且他企業的場地條件是寬鬆的所以業者經營起來其實成本也是比較低的他的承辦業者去承辦企業的員工幼兒園結果去收其他的小孩所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":24188.142,"end":24203.27,"text":"勞動部有補助如果到最後都沒有自己的小孩那還要補助他們嗎就是你補助他們錢貼補他們去辦這個職場收托可是如果這裡面都沒有自己員工的小孩我們還要補助他們嗎所以"},{"start":24206.212,"end":24230.874,"text":"我們訂第18條第4項到底是要幹什麼因為如果我們覺得企業拖音中心不用管收拖是不是外面的人那也不用罰那我們也不用核准我們幹嘛要訂這第4項如果第4項還要核准還要你核准你要確認他優先先收拖了然後有餘額才核准他出去外面"},{"start":24232.625,"end":24258.608,"text":"招收其他的小孩那這樣子我們這一條都沒有法則我們從這條是要從這樣第四項可以拿掉這宣誓性的條文然後這個我要再講一次就幼兒園在職場互助上都已經發生過這種案例了真的就是這樣子雖然是鼓勵的措施但是這個都不是企業去承辦的都是委託業者去辦理的"},{"start":24259.469,"end":24283.285,"text":"那因为没有法则所以对业者来讲他优先想到的绝对不是职场互助他优先想到的应该是获利的多少不要跟我说业者没有获利他会想要去承办那如果这里面都没有该企业的员工的小孩或是企业员工的小孩只有一层九成都是外面的小孩的话我们劳动部还要再补助这一种托儿托育"},{"start":24284.105,"end":24311.233,"text":"还要再给他们宽松的场地的管理这业者经营这个太好赚了老实说了如果是真的没有任何规范的话我抱歉我再说回他们并不是太好赚了不见得太好赚因为的确是少子化小孩很少我知道收托很不容易但是如果要像大家讲的那样子的话我们18条第4项应该也可以删除了因为"},{"start":24311.843,"end":24334.347,"text":"也不用核准了啊干嘛要核准都是鼓励的啊我们干嘛硬性规定人家商业企业照这个性供罚收的托婴中心还要你政府核准什么照你照鼓励性措施来讲的话都都已经人家有设就不错了设个样子给你政府看的"},{"start":24337.354,"end":24363.027,"text":"剛才那個韓氏有找到了我想這個議題我們也討論非常久因為我覺得第18條本來過去為什麼我相信當時為什麼要這樣訂事實上是第三項過去一直以來政府機關辦的都沒有先讓員工因為他自己的孩子他要大老遠送到別的地方又來這邊上班所以為了解決這個問題才有這一項可是第四項"},{"start":24363.854,"end":24390.313,"text":"要去解決的是如果說燒脫的人數有餘額的時候的確真的要讓他同意去收外邊的孩子所以有這樣的一個考慮點所以我說如果這樣的話第一個是請法務部做說明否則就是我們先如果溝通不了那我們就先休息然後讓衛福部去跟委員們溝通之後我們再開那我們先請法務部先做這個說明好不好"},{"start":24397.512,"end":24407.632,"text":"主席 請問是要說明哪一個部分因為你今天講 釐清一下這18條因為我覺得18條本來個別我自己在看"},{"start":24409.793,"end":24430.6,"text":"因為就像淑芬委員講那實務上的確也是如果他整個商業或學校做不下去的時候他的確就是要對外收碼這是第四項第三項是政府部門過去很多時候事實上是政府部門辦的他都不先讓員工的孩子進來"},{"start":24432.02,"end":24450.077,"text":"那就會變成是說那他員工的孩子就像學校我如果小學的話我老師的孩子我事實上可以優先來就讀這學校跟隨同我來這邊可變成不隨同所以第三項才會有這樣子的規定所在那可是現在主任委員覺得說如果這樣的話應該要在我們的67條裡面"},{"start":24453.757,"end":24470.282,"text":"給予說那是不是因為這樣子的話應該要有些限制要有些處罰罰則如果說他不先收自己的小孩就去收外邊可是這個法條本來寫的是說如果你自己收了孩子之後有餘額的話才是去外邊收"},{"start":24470.862,"end":24489.775,"text":"那他担心食物上我们第四项已经有弹性了我们第四项并不是没有弹性第四项弹性说我的员工都没有小孩了我当然还要收外面我们也允许也核准但如果员工还有小孩你不让员工优先来你先收外面我们才要处罚"},{"start":24491.036,"end":24508.661,"text":"我們處罰的是你員工有小孩要送托你不收然後你先收外面的如果這樣子這通常都是檢舉案啦我認為啦來我們先休息這已經有彈性了衛福部跟我們的署分委員先溝通一下我們先休息十分鐘"},{"start":24635.28,"end":24641.946,"text":"這樣好了我們就持處分那個沒有核准就收外面的就好了沒有核准就收外面的啦因為我們就處分那個沒有核准因為要經核准才能收外面吧我們就只處分我們就只處分沒有他要經主管機關同意"},{"start":24659.588,"end":24682.364,"text":"我們就只處分我們限縮在只處分沒有報主管機關就自己收外面這樣子啦這樣就簡單多了對啦可以我們就只處分沒有報主管機關就自行收外面這樣就好了沒有啦他有報主管機關的我們就不處分了"},{"start":24688.069,"end":24711.044,"text":"不是啊 那你給人家核准你給人家核准那個程序 可是你沒有罰則那你核准就定義當免啦其實本來就是用這種 用輔導的比較好 鼓勵跟輔導這邊用罰則 這是對啊 但現在問題是 它都歪色 明色圖圓中心那是要跟一般的圖圓中心不是您說的資產互助 資產互助是"},{"start":25719.76,"end":25724.142,"text":"好來我們繼續開會我們後面還有 華澤還有將近10條現在處理到第67條那柯委員對67條有沒有什麼其他意見"},{"start":25738.01,"end":25760.603,"text":"67條我們剛才已經講了兩個問題一個就是說第18條第4項如果你們建議不要處分的話那我們是不是回頭你給人家還要地方主管機關核准那你乾脆廢掉你的第18條第4項要不然你增了那一條沒有罰則我覺得是怪怪的所以這個我也是保留"},{"start":25761.303,"end":25789.998,"text":"那再來就是說教育部的韓式經驗我剛才有傳給你們是不是有傳給大家要放給大家看嗎就是說曾經發生過縣市政府承辦阻止居托服務中心通報結果都沒有通報那這種狀況因為我們要處罰嘛那也允不允許比照這個參照教育部的韓式就如果中心已經善盡督導管理職責也通報但是最後沒有沒有通報完成"},{"start":25791.411,"end":25799.315,"text":"是不是就不予處罰這樣子啦大家把這一個把這一個公文拿出來看一下你要不要先說明"},{"start":25823.936,"end":25842.643,"text":"有關第67條是不是針對18條的第3項跟第4項的部分去處罰我們確實是我們覺得這個以台灣目前托育資源其實還是需要持續來去鼓勵大家設置的角度來看的時候"},{"start":25843.383,"end":25861.793,"text":"而且目前政府機關對於鼓勵大家去設立這樣托嬰的機構其實不管是衛福部我不知道勞動部這邊是不是可能我不確定是不是有衛福部這邊其實不管是民間或者是公部門有設立公托的我們大家都盡可能在一定的範圍內透過計畫來給予獎勵"},{"start":25864.674,"end":25879.291,"text":"所以在這邊我們會建議是說基於是這個先怎麼樣先去充實充足這樣的一個育兒的託嬰的量能的角度那如果在第67條要去徵定罰則的話尤其是針對"},{"start":25882.855,"end":25908.542,"text":"這個托育的對象如果跟原來的目的會有一些這個差距的話我們會建議是不是有可能就是參考原來委員的林委員的版本的78條的第二款那就是聚焦在這個我們現在院版18條的第三項就是公托的部分公立的托嬰中心的部分"},{"start":25909.122,"end":25929.473,"text":"如果他的收拖的對象優先收拖的時候有違反這樣的範圍那我們把他納進來做一個處罰那至於其他學校法人或者等等去設立的部分是不是有機會那這個從鼓勵的角度那就暫時先不要把他納進來處罰那個以上跟委員做一個報告這個我們先保留好不好"},{"start":25936.369,"end":25962.128,"text":"這個要想一下我在這裡也是很難說我們是不是就這樣子因為事實上勞動部在這個補助上面每年最高補助50萬設立的時候補助500萬其實就是要希望建立一個職場友善然後大家優先希望鼓勵可以讓員工可以安心的生育這樣子的"},{"start":25962.828,"end":25981.723,"text":"那我們一直不要講是說公立的不會有這個問題我們也沒有要處罰第三項因為公立的事實上這樣子訂的話公立的要違反這個規定的可能性太低了公托我們也不管但是我們在講就是說如果你拿了政府的補助然後拿了這樣的一個錢然後你18條第四項是這樣子訂"},{"start":25988.909,"end":26010.824,"text":"然后你结果没有任何的处分这样的立法的这样子立法我自己觉得我是觉得太怪了所以我们是不是这个部分先保留那另外我们在讲说教育部在幼照法的执行面上面讲的那一些问题"},{"start":26016.243,"end":26019.406,"text":"這個也保留好了啦這個也是可以保留大家看一下來請陳教授委員非公立的非公立的這個推中那個推中心既然這個"},{"start":26033.611,"end":26062.151,"text":"這衛福部這邊都一直說 現在就是要鼓勵現在沒有人要做 要鼓勵但我主張是先有 先求有再求好一下子就把罰則放進去那這樣的話是每一個我們每一個法條只要有個因我們就要有個對應的這個處罰但是這一個目的是政策鼓勵現在就是沒有人要做 我們要鼓勵他所以我覺得是先讓 先也許就遵照這個尊重院版"},{"start":26063.206,"end":26087.944,"text":"然後這未來也不是不能再修正這個一開始就就要求你說是滿分嗎也這也不叫這未必叫滿分這未必叫滿分那至於補助每年再繼續補助可以看看這個行政機關可以看看我給你補助然後你你沒有按照我建議的方式去做那也不是一個罰則或是一個這個"},{"start":26090.101,"end":26110.102,"text":"這個還有應該還有其他的方式可以處理我們也可以看看後來的數字怎麼樣因為現在大家都不知道會長成什麼樣子所以我不知道現在大家都在假設而且要求完美這個已經很多年了現在就是沒有這個是非公立的這已經很多年了並不是沒有做過"},{"start":26112.172,"end":26135.348,"text":"就是說我還是主張先求有再求好啦一個法剛開始出來你不可能面面俱到說不定面面俱到結果就反而反而很多事情就出更多的狀況沒有這個法但是本來也有很多管理的規則在啦但是就是說為了鼓勵企業建立友善的育兒職場環境其實勞動部他本來就依據性平性別平等工作法的第23條規定他就訂定了"},{"start":26135.828,"end":26141.072,"text":"補給乳市還有托兒設施設置標準及經費補助辦法他提供了企業去辦理托兒設施及措施經費補助每年分兩期受理申請那這個該補助的辦法原先是規定"},{"start":26151.358,"end":26165.887,"text":"企業新興建托兒壽司最高補助是300萬那為了擴大鼓勵企業附設托兒壽設施恆佐當前物價水準還有等等所以他對於企業新興建的托兒壽設施最高"},{"start":26166.867,"end":26188.346,"text":"補助金額提高到500萬算之後如果有補助改善或更新每年最高補助50萬好 我現在要說了我的意思是說勞動部這一個東西如果沒有任何規範的話大家會不會有業者起始傾向就是說這是唯一政府補助最多的而且是錢可以拿得最多的那大家就"},{"start":26189.728,"end":26195.774,"text":"跟企業合作說我企業得名我得利我來經營我去申請補助補助歸我的所以業者的經營成本是下降的但他會變成不平等競爭那不拿到跟企業合作的人拿不到這個步驟"},{"start":26207.765,"end":26222.276,"text":"大家就變相來找企業合作企業大家就衝量反正這個我們都有設你看我們都有設但裡面收的優先收的不是員工的子女他收的可能就跟一般經營幼兒園跟一般經營這個托嬰中心是一樣的只是甲階企業的名字企業也有一個好名字然後在裡面經營然後又可以拿到勞動部500萬和50萬的補助何樂而不為呢"},{"start":26236.086,"end":26248.551,"text":"這樣子的量很多啦這樣子的量也很多啊可是這樣的量就是好的嗎而且這個東西已經是很多年了這麼多年它就是沒有但是如果我們不納管的話"},{"start":26250.029,"end":26261.078,"text":"他有可能 他也有可能的話就是業者說這是一個好途徑我可以拿到這麼多補助就有一些比較聰明的或是比較有辦法的跟企業 我也說好了我就去企業裡面申請然後來做比外面做 比外面自己做一個托營中心如果沒有補助也沒有500萬也沒有50萬 每年50萬都沒有"},{"start":26274.289,"end":26291.387,"text":"這樣 我要去企業裡面做企業說你看我有辦我企業內部的拖曳中心你看我裡面的拖曳中心設立了大家說你看我也有你看我也有其實是業者來經營的然後業者還可以拿500萬然後收的跟在外面收的一樣所以我的意思是說"},{"start":26297.375,"end":26307.181,"text":"如果我們第18條第4項要這樣子留著我們這裡沒有處分我已經講很多遍了我還是不要講了就是說我們是不是先保留了這個跟公托無關因為公托大概不太會有這種狀況機關裡面的應該我想也不會有這種狀況那我們這恰巧這裡就是要管理的就是民間企業這樣子"},{"start":26323.51,"end":26334.637,"text":"如果你們不要管理那你就把因為第18條第4項變成擺著放著而已你如果沒有任何處分不想管理那也可以拿掉啊"},{"start":26336.127,"end":26339.428,"text":"我個人是不主張我認為是應該18條第4項留著然後違反這個規定的因為我們沒有要處分他其他的我們只處分說你企業的員工收拖料之後還有餘額你是要報地方政府主管機關"},{"start":26355.433,"end":26372.5,"text":"同意你就可以收拖外面了那我們只是要處分你連報地方政府同意就可以收拖外面你都不願意報我們只處分你沒有報地方政府就自己收拖外面的所以我們的管理強度是不高的"},{"start":26373.48,"end":26382.089,"text":"只是你第18條第4項叫人家說要報主管機關同意你就可以收脫你連第18條第4項連報都沒報我們當然要處分是處分沒有報地方政府的時候才處分"},{"start":26391.951,"end":26412.732,"text":"我認為現在才一開始立法然後棍子跟蘿蔔兩個一起大大的都站在那個地方明明我們就是要給蘿蔔鼓勵大家來做那我們先把大家所有人都當壞人你給他的蘿蔔在哪裡就是鼓勵他們你說可以領補助那個是勞動部的又不是這部法"},{"start":26413.755,"end":26429.973,"text":"那勞動部那個行之太多年了那另外一個我想說每一條法如果有個因在裡面那都要對應台灣的每一條法律都這樣嗎都要對應到一個罰則嗎每一個因都對應一個罰則嗎如果你的一個因沒有罰則那我們因什麼因這裡已經寫了很多的次序已經寫了次序有餘額的時候"},{"start":26431.734,"end":26458.225,"text":"經主管核准所以你是認為說他們不需要經過主管機關核准就可以收外面不是員工的小孩我也沒意見因為這一條就是說你員工的子女收拖以外還有餘額你報地方主管機關同意你就可以收拖非員工的子女那你認為說不用報地方主管機關同意就直接可以收外面的人的子女你如果認為這樣子的話"},{"start":26459.825,"end":26476.489,"text":"我也是可以佩服你啊因為我就認為應該要報主管機關同意啊這個也可以接受檢舉然後看看去查查看是不是這樣我們就不能假設每個人都是這樣子做不是啊檢舉要幹嘛檢舉又沒有罰則檢舉幹嘛根本都不需要檢舉了因為檢舉完也沒有罰則要檢舉幹嘛好王玉敏委員"},{"start":26482.535,"end":26508.09,"text":"我想這一條剛剛去討論很多我覺得每一個立法的目的或者是我們的政策都是要去思考他要達到什麼樣的效果那基本上如果看這第18條的話事實上他在原來的這個第三項裡面第三項裡面他本來就他可以收拖只是"},{"start":26509.594,"end":26532.837,"text":"血清杯清署需要協助兒童托孕中心員工的子女還有其他的兒童所以我們本來就是沒有去嚴格限制他不得去收拖其他的兒童你的第三項講的只有政府機關啦你看清楚我們在講第四項第四項才有涵蓋到民間企業所以就不要再講第三項了"},{"start":26533.718,"end":26557.707,"text":"那民間企業一樣可以啊民間企業就只有第四項規定只是說你要收非員工的小孩你就報地方主管機關同意就好了那我要處分的所以本來就是他可以啊可以啊所以彈性很大那這個為什麼要懲罰呢我們要處分的就是他連報地方主管機關都不願意就自己收外面的小孩本來他就可以收外面的小孩"},{"start":26557.947,"end":26566.858,"text":"沒有你的第四項是要報主管機關同意才可以收你現在你現在一直"},{"start":26568.154,"end":26593.388,"text":"就是就我就是說糾結要報地方主管機關同意才能收外面的你連報都不願意報我真的覺得我們今天討論這個法要從更大的我們現在的狀況跟政策的面向來討論那本來我們現在就是鼓勵政府機關跟企業你應該要去我們根據我們的性平反我們就希望鼓勵他去增設這樣的一個拖音機構"},{"start":26594.509,"end":26619.328,"text":"如果你的政策目的是要去鼓勵的話然後再去加罰則我覺得這個基本上在政策的旨意上面是有所衝突的所以如果我們是獎勵應該就是鼓勵他去申請那主管機關要不要有行政的裁量權現行的行政院的版本他這樣寫沒有什麼錯就是說他在提報他告訴主管機關我覺得這樣就可以了"},{"start":26620.709,"end":26645.96,"text":"一定要去增設閥者真的要去考慮我剛剛已經講過了如果是這樣的立法他會造成的效果是什麼會不會導致想生設的人他看到閥者他又猶豫了那這個我覺得是我們要去考量的那我覺得實務上剛剛淑芬我一直在舉例說有人會去佔用政府的資源設了之後都去大量招收外面反而員工沒有"},{"start":26647.099,"end":26670.226,"text":"我剛剛也叫主管機關要回應一下就現在實務上是不是有這一種這是一個推論還是現況的確有如果現況的確有這一種你們行政又沒有辦法去管理他那的確就需要設法則但是如果不是我覺得是不是先讓法先上路然後有有必要的時候再加嚴因為這一條真的討論很久了"},{"start":26673.334,"end":26687.993,"text":"我們等一下是不是請勞動部講一下因為就是說這一整部法請大家記住這裡不是在鼓勵設置這裡整部法都在講管理管理這裡不是基本法"},{"start":26688.933,"end":26715.458,"text":"這裡不是在鼓勵什麼政策這裡講的是要管理這一些機關還有從業人員要怎麼管理那我們現在講的鼓勵也不是放任鼓勵也不是放任所以在這裡我們要有效的立法當然是要有對應的法則否則你規定因他查到了沒有法則我們的因就等於淪於百事莊事無效的立法嘛"},{"start":26716.078,"end":26745.004,"text":"那我們你要叫勞動部來講一下說他們這樣他們鼓勵因為他們是性供法他們是性供法性供法基本上是宣示基本政策的態度但是我們這裡是管理法管理這是不同的概念的法律所以除非你們把第18條第4項拿掉要不然它本來有效的立法就對應本來就是要有罰則"},{"start":26747.133,"end":26763.978,"text":"而且我們就是我跟你講18條第4項就是已經是彈性了你本來就可以收外面的小孩了只要你報我縣市政府同意就好了你連報縣市政府同意都不願意做就直接去收外面的小孩這樣是對的我們在這裡說我們不要一樣讓他去他要做的很不簡單都做假的他還是做假的"},{"start":26772.418,"end":26798.665,"text":"現在都以收拖外面為主自己員工為輔能自己員工還送到外面去因為價格絕對不一樣來 行政黨員要不要再回應如果再回應沒有辦法就保留快點不確定勞動部這邊如果有相關實務運作的經驗是不是可以一併幫忙做一些說明勞動部"},{"start":26803.209,"end":26803.37,"text":"來 請到麥克風"},{"start":26807.114,"end":26833.331,"text":"我們對於企業托育的措施設施都是採獎勵鼓勵的所以他一定要員工的子女那我們在審核補助的時候才會提供補助如果沒有員工子女就不會補助了這是我們負責的地方其他管理層面的話可能我們就比較沒有辦法員工子女要幾個%的比例有沒有限制一個也算是有員工子女資格上至少"},{"start":26833.951,"end":26859.129,"text":"至少有一個就叫有員工子女就可以補助了是吧就一定要有啦一定要有就一個也是有啊但不要忘了性工法是基本法而兒童兒童托育這裡是專業的管理法這裡是兒童托育服務法是管理作用法不是政策宣示的好"},{"start":26867.115,"end":26884.167,"text":"我最後再講一次當時在這個新評法裡面去修這個是我當時提出來的法案然後我當時的目的就是希望這個企業多多去設置這樣的一個托育的相關的機構"},{"start":26885.948,"end":26901.845,"text":"那因為這個真的是對員工是最便利的一個模式但是推展到現在坦白講我之前諮詢勞動部也覺得這個成效都不好就是說推進的速度其實太慢那我們這邊這個是托育專法"},{"start":26902.946,"end":26924.995,"text":"勞動部那邊是要求一定規模比例的企業他應該要去設置這兩個法完全沒有關係他當然有關係因為你是這邊設置的越嚴格他那邊推動就越不易嘛那兩個是產生聯動的那如果主管就會回去討論一下如果你們的行政管理措施都可以去確保他在審查過程當中以員工子女為優先"},{"start":26926.916,"end":26954.232,"text":"這個是你們在審查的要件之一的話那我的立場就是這邊就可以不用再去設法了就透過行政管理的模式況且實務上就我知道現在比較大型真的有去設置的包括這一些幼兒園譬如說橘子或者是台積電他們當然是以自己的員工為優先我目前是還沒有知道說是有點掛羊頭賣狗肉就企業設了然後專收別人的目前這樣"},{"start":26955.573,"end":26964.757,"text":"我是不知道勞動部有沒有去查但是實況是企業運輸社就已經很少了那有設的我知道的是以員工子女為優先好啦 保留啦 好不好好啦 保留 因為你如果沒有保住也沒有處長好像一個書長在政策上他也沒有在場拍板來 繼續審查所以我們要怎麼討論媽媽看過連個次長都沒有的繼續審查 保留條文第68條請行政機關說明"},{"start":26989.813,"end":27015.391,"text":"第68條當時保留是因為要配合第11條在討論過程中先前是有保留的那第6 11條的部分已經討論通過了所以第68條的部分我們建議是可以依照行政院版本的條文來做審查 以上報告委員針對第68條有沒有其他意見"},{"start":27046.82,"end":27058.09,"text":"好各位如果第68條沒有意見我們就照行政院的版本來通過好謝謝然後繼續來審查保留條文第69條"},{"start":27060.169,"end":27087.847,"text":"第69 修正東西是第9條 第9案第69條的部分那這個因為裡面處罰的構成要件的部分有涉及到第30條以及第34條那這兩個條目前都還在保留我們建議第69條是不是先請一併保留以上好 謝謝各位沒有意見我們就先行保留繼續審查保留條款第70條"},{"start":27091.309,"end":27117.72,"text":"第70條的部分 先前是因為涉及到草案第8條和第52條先行保留不過這兩個條文在現在審查的部分都已經通過了那我們建議在這個條文的部分是可以來進行審查不過因為52條是今天上午才剛剛審查完畢那我們在條文的文字上面有配合建議會做一些調整的地方"},{"start":27118.32,"end":27138.359,"text":"那主要的調整的部分包括在第一項文字我們調文的文字現在建議修正的文字有放在有公佈出來有放在那個螢幕上面那我們從第一款的部分主款來做一個說明那第一款的部分有做一些文配合第八條"},{"start":27139.46,"end":27161.216,"text":"配合第8條文字有做一些簡單整理把那個變成實施文字有做一些整理那第二款的部分那只是文字有做一個比較大幅度的配合第15條跟第28條的文字那我們把它修正為居家托育人員或托育機構訂定書面契約內容是有違反"},{"start":27162.057,"end":27190.025,"text":"中央主管機關依第15條第二項或第28條第二項鎖定的定型化契約範本與其應記載及不得記載事項那這個部分是配合第15條跟第28條部分去把它做一個比較明文的規定然後這款是做相關的甄列那第三款的部分我們在文字上面有做甄列那配合那個第52條的文字我們增加前段兩個字然後"},{"start":27193.482,"end":27213.215,"text":"第四款的部分那也是文字會做一個調整就是專業人員的這個訓練跟服務的部分是要在前兩年或在提供服務三個月內完成相關的救命術訓練這也是跟配合第52條的文字做比較清楚的描述那第五款"},{"start":27213.775,"end":27242.654,"text":"的文字也是配合第52條那我們把文字再做一個整理我們會把它修正為每兩年內在完成8小時以上兒童基本救命術訓練3小時以上事故傷害預防及處理或一次以上急救緊急救護情境演練這個配合早上所審議的文字我們來做一個調整好 各位有沒有其他意見"},{"start":27244.836,"end":27272.168,"text":"來 請聽書委員各位就是說因為我們是希望違反書面契約的就照這一條違反地形化契約範本的就照這一條這樣子處理就是居家托育人員但是我們希望托育機構不要這樣子托育機構刪除原因是說托育中心或托育機構他已經是一個業者了"},{"start":27272.668,"end":27292.897,"text":"那相對業者家長是相對弱勢的那相對保母的話保母這跟家長的地位是相對是相對於平等的那而且業者經營一個機構跟一個保母照顧小孩的收入兩者不可同日而語所以業對業者來講應該有更強大的比較更"},{"start":27297.239,"end":27324.547,"text":"比較高強度一點的責任所以我們希望把業者的這個責任是直接適用消保法的規定那居家保姆考量他的收入啊能力啊所以我們才說適用這一款所以我們希望第二款是托育機構要適用消保法的規定而居家保姆才適用這一款因為這一款是財閥"},{"start":27326.687,"end":27344.282,"text":"多少多少錢因為這個消保法是罰3萬到50萬消保法是罰3萬到50萬如果一個機構跟一個在居家保姆你都一樣都罰6千到3萬這個我覺得好像"},{"start":27348.752,"end":27360.915,"text":"比例原則不是很對你對居家保姆罰這樣OK可是對業者是不是應該照消保法五十六之一條消保法五十六之一條他可以直接裁罰三萬到五十萬就是保姆跟一個托嬰中心應該是裁罰的強度要不一樣"},{"start":27373.444,"end":27379.751,"text":"因為收入也不成比例啊家長跟經營者的關係也不對等啦 老實說來 請到委員有意見嗎如果沒有就請行政機關再回應"},{"start":27392.101,"end":27412.263,"text":"我們確實是覺得這個在如果它同樣都是違反一個定型化契約的要求因為現行的規定我們都是對於脫英的部分主要是有一個契約的範本但是並不是沒有現行的狀況沒有到消保法的定型化契約的程度"},{"start":27412.964,"end":27427.543,"text":"那未來在這個托育服務法通過之後就全部要去適用托育服務法他就要去訂相關的定型化契約規定那這個既然是我們的想法是不管是個人或者是機構"},{"start":27428.564,"end":27454.403,"text":"那他的違規的樣態其實就是沒有遵照沒有依照定型化契約的行為那要去來做處罰那至於這個對於不管是居家托育的保姆或者是托嬰中心這樣的托育機構那他的違規行為的樣態其實應該是一樣的就是他就是違反這樣定型化契約"},{"start":27455.203,"end":27473.529,"text":"那我們未來在訂定定型化契約的時候也都會針對這個兩個不同的這個服務樣態去分別去做規範那我們會建議是不是有可能還是就是針對它同樣都是違反定型化契約的部分那通通就是全部用依照這個規定來做一個處理"},{"start":27477.813,"end":27493.269,"text":"第一種人士用托育服務法處罰第二種用消保法去做處理這個在法規適用上面的話其實那你前面其他條款包括林月琴委員講的條款你怎麼托育人員居家保姆處分的跟這個機構處分的會不一樣"},{"start":27495.618,"end":27520.778,"text":"前幾個小時前才這樣子分等級處理了在這裡你又說都違反一樣的事情應該要一樣的處分不是啦 這不是一樣的事情你要想想看一個機構他收托30名收入是多少一個保姆收托一兩名他收入是多少這有對等嗎那你在這個定型化契約你違反裡面你的獲利你的獲利的狀況會一樣嗎"},{"start":27523.32,"end":27545.531,"text":"那一個機構的把關的要件不是應該要比也是要相當嚴格因為他動輒影響的是數十個小孩一個保姆可能帶一個兩個影響一兩個小孩所以這個是分級管理的概念怎麼會是說違反的事情都一樣所以處分都一樣"},{"start":27547.779,"end":27555.227,"text":"剛才林月琴委員剛才哪一條她不是說這個機構應該處分高強度高一點這樣你們剛才怎麼同意哪一條月琴的她不是剛才在說她認為機構處分應該要強度高一點那居家保姆處分強度低一點要分級"},{"start":27573.477,"end":27595.304,"text":"這裡就不是違反的東西一樣的問題一個機構違法影響的孩子是多少啊一個保姆違反這個地形化契約影響了小孩是幾個影響層面不一樣獲利的數金額也不一樣他所應該要承擔的責任也不一樣不是嗎請說明"},{"start":27602.537,"end":27606.921,"text":"一個是人在照顧小孩一個是機構跟委員報告其實我們在這個寫的時候我們心裡面預設的一個情境是說如果有一個托育機構那他對於他所托育的對象通通都是用違反這個"},{"start":27627.387,"end":27651.321,"text":"對啊他如果都違反這個定型化契約的話他其實就是每簽一個月就是有一個違規的行為啦其實我們原來在我們原來在訂這樣的條文在做這樣條文整理的時候我現在問你你用了這一條是不是阻卻了人家從消保法裡面的所賦予他的權利是不是阻卻了消保法第56-1條"},{"start":27656.499,"end":27662.54,"text":"本來沒有訂這個特別法以前我普遍就是適用五十六支一條啊你訂了這個特別法結果特別法的處分是比五十六支一還要輕的本來是三萬結果你是變六千這機構應該是還蠻爽的吧六千他獲利就不止那些六千了按人頭人家消保法也可以"},{"start":27688.444,"end":27697.759,"text":"而且他會變成消保法是普通法他這裡是特別法要適用這裡欸消保法的特別法就是要優先適用70條欸要先罰6千不可以先罰3萬欸"},{"start":27704.952,"end":27723.96,"text":"所以我們在講說其實是保姆這樣子是適當因為他行為人是一個人可是如果一個機構你阻卻了他從透過消保法裡面所賦予他的權利的保障消費者的保障結果你讓他特別法其實是重放的那我們可以請法務部表示一下意見那請參事"},{"start":27731.57,"end":27736.211,"text":"應該是說沒次長沒部長大姐我們都保留比較多保留啦那請說明啦是 主席跟各位委員報告一下因為看那個消保法56條之一的確那個企業經營者使用定型化的契約如果有違反17條就是消保法的17條"},{"start":27754.156,"end":27780.647,"text":"公告的應記載不記載事項除非法律另有處罰規定那可能我們如果兒托法在這裡可能就是像消保法的處法律另有處罰規定外那個主管機關令其限期改正而借其不改正的確是3萬到30萬的罰還看起來是比我們現在兒托法的草案第70條的第一項第一款第二款罰則是比較重"},{"start":27781.808,"end":27802.35,"text":"那也的確是兒托法在這裡應該算是比較是一個比較特別相較於消保法是特別的規範那會有優先以這個兒托法的規定來處理那會不會有這個處罰對象不同而不相當"},{"start":27804.132,"end":27829.228,"text":"這樣的一個處理可能就涉及到政策的考量那這個部分可能得請主管機關再仔細的評估我們在這裡念茲再茲所有這個對管理這個兒童就是兒童福利兒童權利兒童安全我們都要在這個法律裡面面面周到面面俱到結果你在他違反定型化契約的時候結果讓他逃脫了這個消保法基本法的"},{"start":27830.749,"end":27839.335,"text":"這個管理和處分你要讓他特別的可以逃脫那個責任保姆我認為是因為保姆是一個自然人是應該給他一個就他的資歷上資歷跟一個機構的資歷是不一樣保姆是應該適用這樣沒有錯可是一個機構你都是一個商業盈利的機構了一樣是商業盈利的機構你讓他跟保姆是一樣的這樣子是適當的嗎"},{"start":27857.701,"end":27884.959,"text":"剛剛那個署長有特別提到說你們你們當時的想法是如果是機構的話他跟A家長簽就是罰一個嘛ABCD就是一個家長就是一罰嘛對不對那一般的托嬰機構少說也有10個20個嘛那如果10個就是6萬20個是這樣子嗎你們當時的行政是這樣應該講清楚如果是這樣可能會比消保法更重"},{"start":27894.863,"end":27916.752,"text":"我是秉持一個合理性來討論這件事情我們有特別政黨的意思你現在都支持衛福部的做法了所以證明衛福部是理性中道的我支持合理的他們提的合理我也支持因為這個是兒托法跟政治無關跟政黨有關所以政府這個政策都是理性中道的所以我要他們說明書長請說明"},{"start":27923.032,"end":27937.472,"text":"當初在這個對於這一類的人員違反定型化契約的部分的時候我們在選擇要處罰的時候我們確實是覺得這個不管是居托或者是機構"},{"start":27938.573,"end":27959.717,"text":"那原則上他的行為太樣一樣那就應該要用一樣的方式來處理所以我們當初在條文設計的時候比較沒有去考慮說這個要不然就全部走消保法要不然就全部走兒托法去訂立法則那如果說是個人居托的部分去走兒托法"},{"start":27961.478,"end":27984.56,"text":"這個機構的部分去走消防法的話在試用上確實是這個在試用上面一方面是也比較容易不太容易不一定能夠分清楚那第二個是也會變成是不一樣的這個在試用的時候對於不管是民眾端或者是政府機關在處罰端都不是都會比較容易會有困擾"},{"start":27985.28,"end":28010.295,"text":"所以那如果說當然我們現在的選我們現在的建議是通通都在兒童法這邊來做處罰那這個處罰的額度的部分那我們現在是定在六千到三萬那如果是傾向於要用這個消保法的話那我們會建議是是不是就是保姆和這個機構就統一通通都用消保法來做一個處理"},{"start":28011.155,"end":28026.721,"text":"那我们就至少是因为这个同样的违规太阳用同样的条文去处罚我们也尽可能能够这样子会比较一致不是啦你不知道你到底在讲什么自然人跟法人会一样吗我们这里讲的就是说你"},{"start":28027.801,"end":28047.526,"text":"從消保法違反定型化契約你的法人就適用消保法那你自然人你做一個保姆居家保姆我們就給你特別因為你的財產收入你的收託的對象你一年的收入多少所以這個資歷上差這麼多所以我用特別法給你從六千起跳"},{"start":28048.499,"end":28075.96,"text":"這是自然人法人法人就適用消保法這個在適用上怎麼會分不清楚呢機構還有立案耶拜託而且這個盈利事業機構盈利事業機關他們怎麼會不知道呢這個會有適用上有什麼問題法務部可以說嗎所以我說沒有次長沒有部長在這裡署長腦袋搞不清楚我們要找誰啊根本就不需要再寫也保留啦"},{"start":28077.626,"end":28106.429,"text":"對不對在這裡沒有次長沒有部長署長腦袋他能夠講什麼他敢講什麼就一個自然人一個法人你怎麼會說自然人要用跟法人一樣的處分的強度呢你怎麼說一個保姆要跟一個公司一個退營中心處罰都一樣從三萬起跳呢怎麼會怎麼會這樣子呢剛剛早上林耀前委員在這裡你說哪裡要處分的比較重"},{"start":28107.981,"end":28135.445,"text":"然後他還同意然後那時候怎麼不說保姆處分比較輕機構中心處分的比較重你怎麼不說不同意現在你在這裡就說你不能同意李月琴委員早上在講的時候你就同意因為自相矛盾嘛重點不是在這裡重點是他沒有長官政策上他要把這個架構他不敢決定啦他不敢決定我們在這裡討論保留就好了"},{"start":28140.121,"end":28140.912,"text":"那署長就不要再回應"},{"start":28143.899,"end":28168.174,"text":"剛才所有的說明基本上大概都跟委員報告一下我們對於這個處罰的行為的樣態的結構那是不是要這個對於同樣的行為用同樣的條文的結構來做處理那當然如果最後委員輪大家的覺得這個對於托育機構要用比較重的罰則來處罰那麼我們會"},{"start":28173.877,"end":28188.956,"text":"我們有兩個建議的方我們有兩個建議的方式那第一個是是不是要把這個對於因為對於違法處罰條文那只要不管是個人或者是機構"},{"start":28190.919,"end":28206.822,"text":"能夠在同一個法律裡面來做處理那如果機構要處罰比較重那我們是建議是不是可能把這個條文把機構的部分拆出來放到前面罰還額度比較高的條文裡面去做處理"},{"start":28207.743,"end":28222.15,"text":"但是至少它都是在這個條文在這個托育服務法裡面比較不會發生說一種行為樣態在托育服務法另外一種樣態在消費者保護法裡面"},{"start":28223.99,"end":28247.839,"text":"那這個是一個建議啦那是不是有可能有這樣的空間能夠讓我們來去看一下這個相對應的條文那我們來查一下這個消保法現在的這個罰環大概的條文那大概以他最低的罰環的額度來做這個做相對應的對照我們來配合看看把它放到哪一個先剛才的已經保留條文裡面以上"},{"start":28248.579,"end":28269.494,"text":"好 謝謝那就這樣就建議保留嘛因為早上我提的應該就是說今天如果5以下就用居家罰如果5以上他已經是機構的話就是要用機構罰因為他罰比較重啊因為這兩個層次不一樣那的確居家托育人員單一跟那個托這是兩種行為太一樣了"},{"start":28272.256,"end":28289.597,"text":"然後那個我覺得淑芬委員提的有一個東西對啦因為機構你這麼大機構在運作你為什麼會對於定型化契約在怎麼會應該記載不得記載的東西你會有一些反而還會去觸犯你是一個"},{"start":28290.546,"end":28317.707,"text":"有組織有規模和一個居家托育服務人員我覺得層次上真的是有不一樣可是你們現在放在一起罰的東西一樣的話好像對於托育機構的那種他這麼有規模結果他犯的問題怎麼會跟一個居家托育服務中心一樣呢所以如果那就先保留你們再去看處理到哪一條以上好 就先行保留"},{"start":28320.308,"end":28340.287,"text":"繼續審查條文第71條那不好意思如果要保留的話只是讓我講一句話就是在第5個我剛剛不知道有沒有第5第5款好你們又把那個訓練拿掉那兩個字好那沒事有配合早上的審議我們文字有在做整理"},{"start":28343.37,"end":28369.299,"text":"然後第七十一條 保留條文第七十一條請說明 請機關說明第七十一條他這個原來是因為處罰是針對違反第五十六條的罰則那當時是保留那五十六條早上上午的部分已經審查通過那而各委員的版本基本上這個處罰的構成要件基本上都相當所以我們建議七十一條可以通過以上"},{"start":28372.025,"end":28390.134,"text":"好 各位人針對保留挑文第七條有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就照行政院提案通過繼續審查保留挑文這個修正動議 對不起 陳培永是八十一條這個咧這還沒有處理"},{"start":28399.793,"end":28418.688,"text":"繼續審查保留條文 成比委員是81條 民主委員會提示82條有修正動議是張雅琳委員的第4案還有第14案是民主委員的修正動議請行政機關說明"},{"start":28421.597,"end":28444.873,"text":"針對林淑雯委員以及張海玲委員等提到的這個主要是針對祭典制的部分那針對祭典制的部分先前在討論的時候大方向上面大家是有覺得還是要把它放進來那我們也根據參考了委員的大概幾位委員的草案的版本我們把文字做了一些總體的整理我先把條文宣讀一下"},{"start":28445.433,"end":28463.693,"text":"那第一項我們在居家托育人員違反本法規定除依規定處罰要求限期改善或違其他必要之處之外者得依其對托育品質及兒童安全之違反程度即違規點數那居家托育人員違規點數達一定次數者"},{"start":28466.736,"end":28495.474,"text":"那主管機關應命其暫停一定期間之收託服務並視情節輕重公佈其姓名或廢紙登記證書及依家長意願協助轉託第三項前二項違規祭典之適用條件應祭典數停託期間通知程序及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之以上"},{"start":28498.187,"end":28522.819,"text":"各位看條文草案有什麼意見好這個修正動議我是想說我們怕有糾紛所以我們要不要我是建議應該再修正最後一項就是說依第四項規定廢止登記者自廢止起那是另外一件事那就是說達到"},{"start":28524.56,"end":28542.249,"text":"第一項後面前項情形以廢證者不予記違規點數你如果被廢證了就點數都不用再記了因為免得說我只是記幾點你都廢證了還記幾點就明文規定講清楚"},{"start":28543.516,"end":28559.586,"text":"那再來就是第一項的後面就是我們講說違規祭典嘛我們裡面一到三點要不要明定下去就是我們的法律上就是從一點到三點就是點數一到三點那前項請行以廢聖者不予祭違規點數"},{"start":28561.187,"end":28579.055,"text":"那另外就是說我剛剛講最後一項加一個依第四項規定廢紙登記者我們要不要限縮要明文規定他幾年內不得再辦理登記為居家托育人員就是如果你被廢紙登記了你幾年不可以再登記"},{"start":28582.881,"end":28594.25,"text":"那我們要明定因為你剝奪他的工作權那你要剝奪他幾年事實上要明定上去的法律一定要明文規定是一到四年嗎然後第二項居家托育人員違規點數達一定次數者點數違規點數"},{"start":28615.536,"end":28624.323,"text":"對有寫了一定次數者可以了吧不是違規次數應該是可以吧"},{"start":28629.148,"end":28643.967,"text":"這一條是你們後來去修的想救救你的第三項裡邊前兩項違規祭典之適用條款這個適用條款是什麼為什麼我這樣問"},{"start":28645.368,"end":28663.941,"text":"因為這祭典呢事實上是應該是最早是台北在執行那台北在執行的時候裡面寫的真的很多事實上是法條裡面法條裡面如果已經違反那些東西本來就應該事實上是搞不好是Get out的那或者是已經違反很嚴重那時候我們還講說那為什麼還寫在那邊讓它祭典"},{"start":28667.369,"end":28695.418,"text":"他已經超收為什麼還在祭典所以我在講說你說適用條款因為當初彭婉如那時候他們要弄是因為想要那個小錯不斷大錯不犯大錯就是那個已經違規的可是你現在講適用條款我就很擔心到時候這些條款是什麼條款會落入到這邊的條款基本上都已經是違法的了違反你這個規定的"},{"start":28698.02,"end":28723.736,"text":"那這樣子的話列出來你要祭典那我就很擔心那這樣子的話你還讓他祭典不是就應該事實上是開罰或者要去做什麼事情嗎或者是就是要把他停權所以我不知道就這幾個字可不可以請你們解釋一下你們真的要把之前的那個哪些條拿出來放嗎這有點風險費證的就不用再祭典了要費證"},{"start":28726.331,"end":28753.661,"text":"可是適用的條款裡面是不是這些條都是法條裡面有的所以我說可是法可是你現在你的文字寫這樣子是不是這個適用的條款裡面是不是會不會因為它是小錯的那部分根本沒在你的條款裡面那你也就是要去處理那個小錯然後累積到一定的程度的時候可是我說你這四個字可不可以解釋一下適用條款"},{"start":28755.766,"end":28783.885,"text":"兩位委員所這個提示的部分我做簡單的說明那這個條文的訂定確實就是希望能夠回應到幾位委員當時在提案裡面針對這個叫做小錯不斷大錯不犯的這樣這個目的確實是這樣那但是在先前在審查的過程中也面臨一個問題是到底什麼樣的行為應該記幾點因為這是一個全新的制度只有少數的縣市曾經去辦理過"},{"start":28784.665,"end":28810.684,"text":"那所以應該具體應該要怎麼訂的部分現在沒有辦法在法律條文裡面一次就把它講清楚所以我們在當時也在審查的時候是說是不是可能用一個授權的方式把它去訂出來所以未來在授權的這個訂定相關的辦法的時候我們會找廣邀各界對於違規的太陽的部分那應該怎麼樣去計點數的這個部分來做一個比較深入的討論"},{"start":28811.545,"end":28833.455,"text":"那大方向上這個我們一定會緊記委員大概所提示的這個小錯 針對小錯才有祭典的問題到了大錯 例如說本來就應該要進入這個例如說可能會要進入消極資格多久不得任職像這樣的行為基本上是不會進去因為他會跟這個祭典制度本身就有漢格"},{"start":28834.355,"end":28862.467,"text":"委員可以 這個我們一定不會放進去這個先跟委員做一個報告那第二個就是在條文字的細節的部分那個剛才淑芬委員有提到的就是這個費政的部分是不用記點的這個就不需要再記點的部分我想如果真的有需要我們把它列進來沒有問題那費政的效果的部分在先前我們審查的條文裡面有提到那它也是參考目前"},{"start":28863.147,"end":28885.064,"text":"而效法的規定原則上如果他廢止過證書的話他在一年之內是不可以再重新來申請登記那也就是說未來在訂這些所謂的祭典的時候如果他的行為違規樣態會比這個廢證還會比這個還要重的話他其實屬性上就不太適合拿到這邊來再做祭典"},{"start":28885.564,"end":28908.373,"text":"所以這個部分將來在設計那個祭典的行為樣態的時候我們會一併來做一個討論那以上報告那剛才有提到文字的部分第二項是用次數還是點數等等這個部分的話這個我們可以再做一些整理以上來 請您的請問署長你沒有回答我我講的是你的那四個字適用條款"},{"start":28909.471,"end":28935.71,"text":"就表示這邊的法條有的你才會寫可是小錯不會在你法條裡面我質疑的是這個第二個如果適用的條款的話如果是可以適用的話那表示就已經要裁除了或者事實上是不OK的狀態怎麼會是垃圾點呢那個已經就是大錯啦所以我才說你要不要講一下那個什麼適用條款有沒有其他取代字眼是要去處理小錯而不是"},{"start":28936.731,"end":28959.411,"text":"條款裡面有寫的那就已經是大錯了跟委員報告所以第一項裡面因為這個考慮到處罰構成要件法定這樣一個最基本的要求所以第一項裡面所以我們現在設定的就是除了依照規定處罰要求限期改善或為其他必要處之外它可以計違規點數所以它是處罰外再計點數"},{"start":28962.133,"end":28978.13,"text":"那如果沒有達到可以被處罰的條件目前在設計上我們確實因為考慮到處罰構成要件法定的因素我們現在可能比較確實會有一些困難有一些這種我們現在沒有辦法在這邊直接把"},{"start":28978.59,"end":28993.936,"text":"哪一個行為太陽要去記點的這個構成要件去把它寫在這邊所以我們現在未來會去記的點基本上就是已經會達到違法程度的行為只是它違法程度可能沒有到像消極資格程度這麼高"},{"start":28994.856,"end":29018.692,"text":"那這樣的一個條文設計的這個大概的基本設計的原則大概也和現在已經實務有在執行的這個違反道路交通安全管理處罰條例那它裡面的這個交通違規祭典也是一樣就是它除了處過罰款以外它會同時並行祭典大概是採取同樣的立法的一個概念大概先跟委員做個報告"},{"start":29019.537,"end":29046.883,"text":"可是我說我剛剛擔心的就是有些你就不能夠有沒有實務上你就已經沒辦法列進去的因為你先寫了適用條款那本來就沒有在你這裡邊的所以我不知道說有沒有去問過實務現場的工作人員他們甚至台北市有做的經驗裡邊有哪一些東西否則的話你一旦寫上去的話會不會到時候你在訂執法的時候你根本就訂不下去有些東西你就沒辦法列入因為你已經"},{"start":29047.763,"end":29063.558,"text":"把這個適用條款這四個字放進去所以我才說有沒有一些彈性程度讓你們去寫未來方便才比較好一點可是你自己也就是自己把自己框定在這四個字裡面以後是很難處理的我的意思是這樣對 可以先回答嗎"},{"start":29074.086,"end":29097.089,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個部分的話也有保留一些空間其實像在我們現在已經審過先前的在看到前面的條文在第八條的部分他的這個照顧的部分他會有一些相關照顧的基準對不起應該是文字應該是用實施準則在第八條已經通過的"},{"start":29099.011,"end":29115.002,"text":"這個托育服務內容的實施準則是由中央主管機關來訂那違反這個實施準則是有罰還的所以這個部分的話其實未來有一些規定其實是可以透過訂在實施準則內"},{"start":29116.483,"end":29134.312,"text":"他雖然不見得在罰則裡面哪個違反第幾條但是在實施準則內如果能夠把他放進去的話其實一定的程度可以回應到剛才委員所比較關心有一些這個照顧上的一些托育的行為這個比較細項的管理大概還是可以有機會可以放進來的以上"},{"start":29135.519,"end":29148.02,"text":"林巡委員不好意思因為你的第八條是你講的事實上是你們說推服因以什麼什麼為主體秉持的那個族群這一文化然後提供這些嗎"},{"start":29150.735,"end":29166.836,"text":"它後面有四款就是應該提供的相關等等等等所以前項的話就包括就總共有五款也就是第一項有五款的那些內容嗎所以將來的實施準則基本上是根據這五款去做一個發展"},{"start":29167.837,"end":29192.769,"text":"那去把那個準則去把它列出來好 謝謝好 我想再把我們的修正動議再講一下就是說我們是希望在第一項裡面講到的是說居家托育人員違反本法規定除一規定這個處罰要求改善或為其他必要之處之外得依其對托育品質及兒童安全之危害程度即違規點數一到三點"},{"start":29193.849,"end":29205.652,"text":"除非你們還有更多的規劃否則我們是不是可以這樣子修就是加1點到3點接下來就是說我們接下來這一項講的是說但他違反本法直接就要費證的前項情形以費證者不予紀違規點數"},{"start":29211.714,"end":29227.867,"text":"這個是他的違法行為直接被判定為廢證的就不計點數了那再來最後一項我們認為是要加一個依第四項規定廢紙登記者就是說因為這個不是違法行為直接就廢證而是因為計點"},{"start":29229.028,"end":29241.028,"text":"就是小錯不斷然後記點記到被人家費證的人我們要限制他不得要多久裡面不得辦理登記為居家托育人員"},{"start":29241.946,"end":29257.8,"text":"否則他肺症馬上就去再去申請再考再申請就又通過了這也沒有意義啊所以是要一年兩年或三年是不是也要明定上去所以這我們的具體建議就是小錯不斷但大錯"},{"start":29260.802,"end":29273.976,"text":"已經被廢證的人就不再記點數要明定上去但小錯不斷不斷到廢紙登記證的這個也要限定他在重新執業要有年數的要有時間的規定來處罰這樣子是不同層次的"},{"start":29282.219,"end":29305.83,"text":"有關委員所提到的部分我們只有建議是這個1到3點的部分因為這個都是全新的是不是可以給行政部門保留一點空間因為未來也許真的是這個因為最後連現在連多少總數要費政目前都還有保留出來這個部分是不是可以給行政部門保留一點空間那委員所提到的第二項"},{"start":29306.67,"end":29323.23,"text":"我們會建議這個委員的現在這個文字如果我們的目的是要針對已經要達到廢證就是依照相關的條文直接要廢止證書的他不得被列為可以去祭典的行為啦應該是這個意思啦"},{"start":29324.391,"end":29346.119,"text":"那這個部分的話我們可以參採我們也可以把文字去做一個調整把它拉進來這個部分沒有問題那最後一個就是這個廢紙證書那如果是因為我們剛才有提到在前面的罰則的條文66條對一般來廢紙證書的話它的原則就是它在一年之內是不可以重新登記的"},{"start":29346.619,"end":29360.503,"text":"那如果這邊要更明確的話那我們就是廢紙登記證書一年就是大概相對應的條文大概都有相同的處理我們在這邊把文字更清楚的把它列印出來你66條的廢紙證書是違規違害還是什麼 忘了因為一年好像有點短"},{"start":29372.518,"end":29391.226,"text":"現在我們講的是說限制他多久不得辦理是因為他小錯不斷然後一直累積然後講了再講講了再講結果你還一直在小錯不斷這樣子最後被廢證那你要限制他多久一年兩年我們建議是不是可以就參照剛才提到66條66條的是談的是什麼66條"},{"start":29397.267,"end":29418.091,"text":"他規避妨礙檢查或者是未依規定收拖時間專心托育或者是收費有違規這個這一種一年他不讓你檢查或者是跑出去自己跑去逛街把他留在家裡費正一年那這種小錯不斷的應該比他還要重吧不是嗎就是把小孩就在家裡然後自己跑出去費正一年"},{"start":29429.497,"end":29449.207,"text":"對但是因為是小錯不斷他累積起來未來就是他一年之內就是參照66條的精神我們就把他補起來就是原則上也是一年之內不可以再做登記我們應該是想說小錯不斷記點數記到被人家肺症到底是要比66條"},{"start":29451.822,"end":29468.834,"text":"再高一點管理的強度還是要跟他一樣就好了這是保留因為這個的確是可以思考這個到底是要比他更情節重大還是比他跟他一樣就好了這是你們自己的修正動議繼續我們來討論保留條文第72條然後修正動議是第4案黃正勳委員"},{"start":29480.757,"end":29485.76,"text":"主席72條有一個附帶決議 可不可以請大家再確認一下附帶決議等一下會處理"},{"start":29504.232,"end":29528.72,"text":"73條的部分那這個因為先前主要是因為有涉及到第11條當時還沒有討論完整所以當時是保留那這個第11條在前一次會議的時候大概已經討論完畢已經通過了所以我們建議這個第73條的部分是可以依照行政院的版本來通過 以上好 各位委員針對保留73條有沒有其他意見"},{"start":29530.083,"end":29539.133,"text":"沒有那我們就依照行政院提案來通過 謝謝繼續處理委員陳培宇84條 林淑穎85條來請行政機關說明"},{"start":29550.33,"end":29567.37,"text":"陳培宇委員和林淑芬委員的這個條文是針對他的那個相關擔任主管人員的資格的部分他是可以符合一定條在一定條件底下因為我們的這個資格調整過之後保障修正施行前的人"},{"start":29568.01,"end":29596.207,"text":"可以繼續擔任主管人員他會涉及到的這個主要的條文應該是在第44條但是44條先前決定一下44條的部分的話"},{"start":29599.284,"end":29599.704,"text":"也是保留"},{"start":29638.276,"end":29653.335,"text":"那這個是涉及到原來零屬公委員和零屬公委員版本的44條和陳培宇委員的42條那這個條文因為這個目前現在還在保留中那我們建議這個條文是不是一併先行保留"},{"start":29655.529,"end":29683.386,"text":"好那我們就先行保留好來繼續審查保留條文第74條請給行政機關說明第74條的部分是因為他原來有涉及到11條18條19條20條那這個部分的話文字這個這幾個條文先前審查都已經通過了那所以我們建議是可以依照行政院的版本通過以上好各位有沒有其他意見"},{"start":29685.851,"end":29705.501,"text":"第74條沒有那我們就依照行政會提案通過 謝謝那我們第二輪已經走完那現在要不要抱歉我們是不是有一個定點零拖服務管理條文定點零拖好像上次有討論到剛剛保留了"},{"start":29711.145,"end":29720.413,"text":"定點您都要含保留那個是在定義的條文後來我們有把它挪到第二條裡面去甄列定義第二條現在還是保留"},{"start":29723.7,"end":29742.386,"text":"這樣好不好 因為第二輪走完了我們是休息個五分鐘 還是十分鐘讓行政機關再跟各位再討論一下或許有些文字再調整可以來再進行嘛 來通過然後附帶決議要補就趕快補 因為等一下要宣讀好 謝謝 我們休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":29768.968,"end":29786.873,"text":"大概有三分之一到一半大概有五分之一"},{"start":29799.937,"end":29816.709,"text":"第五條應該可以了吧第五是可以了吧第五"},{"start":29823.968,"end":29842.512,"text":"就後面的那個那個促銜書館調整的那個條圍是不是也沒有問題定點靈活用的條圍定點靈活用的條圍大家覺得說六十六小孩要怎麼考驗然後我剛剛說的定點靈活在哪裡我們定點靈活你日報放在哪裡"},{"start":29855.576,"end":29863.085,"text":"第三條有定義然後我們要先申列一個定義第三條會先申列一個定義然後在第六條會申第六條後面申訂一個條文"},{"start":29875.724,"end":29886.394,"text":"因為我們本來是說"},{"start":29898.442,"end":29904.452,"text":"我們的版本是說地方主管機關則自行或委託非營利法人慢營利和離郭"},{"start":29928.024,"end":29928.649,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":29968.527,"end":29970.748,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":29999.531,"end":30026.794,"text":"我剛剛說可以去找我一個人"},{"start":30042.418,"end":30042.679,"text":"又來又沒來"},{"start":30071.365,"end":30084.795,"text":"謝謝大家收看。"},{"start":30090.579,"end":30102.498,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":30113.204,"end":30130.316,"text":"他們每一次都一本然後都把前面再整理所以我已經好幾本了每一本都不一樣每一本條紋都有一點不一樣你這是上次來什麼時候的這個是18號的這個是今天的對其實它前面也不一樣因為它有修後面後面都有不一樣"},{"start":30133.818,"end":30142.882,"text":"所以後來想一想我還是要拿回去交代一下你回去要再寫都會嗎要啊 都會要所以馬上真的聽一下是什麼東東"},{"start":30144.992,"end":30162.301,"text":"因為我們還有像剛剛那個其實是那個是其實是把我們那個稅務的那個部分他們是沒有證書他們其實是沒意見但是因為之前以前是他們業務所以那一點還是算我還是要聽到最後通過我好那回去要寫報告"},{"start":30165.963,"end":30179.891,"text":"像剛剛那個什麼小寶寶那個東西他們上次是這次才弄的對啊我就想說為什麼這次要把它弄進去就是變得拔得比較少因為小寶寶本來之前就想直接用小寶寶這次才把它"},{"start":30186.158,"end":30200.528,"text":"所以小寶寶好像是針對企業沒有 不是保姆也是裡面的企業經營者保姆也算因為它是提供服務的人都算因為我們在這個巡達的那一次就有討論過所以保姆也是在裡面原來"},{"start":30235.23,"end":30262.979,"text":"我們在講不是說人家本來不是用過吃藥的東西因為對人家不需要外保險"},{"start":30273.78,"end":30288.046,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":30305.97,"end":30309.034,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":30316.478,"end":30328.089,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":30332.608,"end":30333.028,"text":"上市"},{"start":30353.578,"end":30359.743,"text":"市長來了趕快來作證你們應該有人聽趕快去趕快趕過來反觀真是不容易對"},{"start":30388.905,"end":30389.905,"text":"然後下個會期是人工生產"},{"start":30412.045,"end":30412.405,"text":"趕快來作證這麼可愛聖誕禮物"},{"start":30429.337,"end":30441.78,"text":"有很多消保法 因為有定70條有多一個就說居家保姆這都是您的居家保姆跟那個什麼拖欲機構他們的處罰是不是要一樣因為如果違反那個什麼那個"},{"start":30451.443,"end":30472.719,"text":"定情化契約的規範那處罰要不要一樣那月效保法是三萬到三十萬但是我們現在法定了就只有三千到六萬然後他們覺得應該要分開可是你們現在定時罰都定在同樣一些比較少那他就覺得應該要分開一個是不是男人一個是女人那有可能是可以的還有一個是什麼還有一個是"},{"start":30508.311,"end":30514.335,"text":"對 還有一個 費正那個還好 那個圍堆最重的是18條片 私人企業"},{"start":30534.622,"end":30538.556,"text":"如果你放在桌上"},{"start":30552.574,"end":30570.5,"text":"市長還有一個18條第4項就是私人企業私人企業我們是要政策是要鼓勵他們弄脫而走但是現在就有一個條文就是說有優先要給員工的啊或者直系分清楚但是市長委員有說他們以前勞動部那邊他們鼓勵企業可是有發現說好像他們沒有"},{"start":30572.261,"end":30589.98,"text":"收自己的然後都讓外面的人進來然後他就有賺一些賭注他覺得這個部分要有罰則但是我們衛福部原來的立場就覺得應該要鼓勵現在都沒有人要設你還給他罰則這樣子更不可能鼓勵企業去設托兒所"},{"start":30591.806,"end":30605.991,"text":"那這個他的意思就是要有罰則因為他如果沒有對他絕對要有罰則但是很多委員還有包括衛福部原來就想說現在已經企業都不願意設了你還給他罰則他就更不可能設了"},{"start":30609.514,"end":30630.028,"text":"現在重點是說,那好,他的重點是說,那現在有的是這樣,他有規定,你們有規定說,有餘額的要經過直轄縣市主管機關核准才可以收,那如果他有餘額的,就是收不滿的,他才對外收嘛,但是萬一他收不滿的,他又沒有經過主管機關核准,他就自己收,他覺得這個要有發展,那你們覺得要嗎?"},{"start":30630.959,"end":30636.664,"text":"這個就是政策喔是可以罰 但是也可以不罰因為如果要鼓勵的話對啊 要不然你只要有罰的"},{"start":30657.982,"end":30660.884,"text":"不能夠 不能夠 不可執行"},{"start":30684.532,"end":30693.64,"text":"最後一哩路現在要順一下法條有很多就保留著再看看能不能再過幾條市長來就是可以做決定"},{"start":30730.102,"end":30736.885,"text":"因為你事情處理那麼多很動腦又耗體力剛剛在報告其實消耗腦力是最累的"},{"start":30755.285,"end":30758.091,"text":"我覺得衛福部的法案是比這個部會兩倍"},{"start":30765.237,"end":30784.402,"text":"我們協商的時候在討論啊因為你現在你不是委員會也是要花時間花時間繼續討論這個保留啊你到協商的時候也是要花時間討論這個保留"},{"start":30797.43,"end":30798.231,"text":"已經超過10分鐘了 還不尷尬"},{"start":30808.975,"end":30821.043,"text":"我們建議你們跟委員再討論一次然後稍微再排斥"},{"start":30833.101,"end":30836.563,"text":"那個有鼓勵嗎?有用到那個嗎?"},{"start":30854.988,"end":30871.476,"text":"這幾件差不多,中間趕快去溝通"},{"start":30886.574,"end":30915.387,"text":"報告委員會那本日開會時間延長至本法案審查完略再行散會請問各位委員有無異議有審查完略是什麼意思沒有啦那對我知道要送出去要審查完略但我們是那些我們自己想像的審查完略是保留的要取得共識還是保留的就保留出委員會"},{"start":30926.226,"end":30941.656,"text":"我建議一下因為我們已經是第二輪那第二輪其實我們保留條文剛剛說大概高達2222嘛對那保留比例那麼高我是建議這當中是不是讓衛福部再去跟再"},{"start":30942.516,"end":30956.803,"text":"這些條文裡面有保留意見的委員就是在先行溝通好不好就是加速我們委員會的成長在溝通完之後再麻煩召委再排斥那他們溝通完之後透過委員會至少比例不要那麼高吧22條條文真的很多耶"},{"start":30960.596,"end":30983.666,"text":"欸 要三分之一啦 我是覺得可以對啊 所以剛剛才會有休息的時間請行政機關跟組裝保留的那幾條條文保留的是不是有溝通的共識啦 共識之後可能就可以再說幾條嘛所以你們都不去溝通了你們都不去溝通了"},{"start":31003.293,"end":31007.414,"text":"有沒有 有幾條有溝通好的三條而已"},{"start":31014.457,"end":31038.98,"text":"三六十六啦 三十如果你們有跟委員有溝通 有共識 有四條是沒有問題的那就剩保留十八條嘛 對不對"},{"start":31040.351,"end":31054.029,"text":"應該是這麼說嘛18條就看各位委員要要送出委員會再來擇起協商還是一樣要保留在委員會裡面再擇起再審都沒有意見那我是不是先請宣讀這個互帶決議來請宣讀"},{"start":31057.95,"end":31080.969,"text":"第二案 請衛生福利部一 於六個月內完成兒童托育服務法相關執法修訂二 於兒童托育服務法第十九條授權訂定之執法中 研議賦予地方主管機關依法行政依據如有事實 主任對兒童權益有侵害之餘者 主管機關得駁回其申請強化事前把關機制提案人委員 陳瑩 黃秀芳 林月琴 林淑芬 黃潔"},{"start":31082.31,"end":31108.196,"text":"第二案 地方政府應定期公佈托育機構違規處分紀錄並檢討資訊介入機制將經裁處確定且法規定名須公佈名稱之托育機構違規處分紀錄定期公佈於指定資訊網站並訂定公告期限公佈內容應包含違規事由法規依據及裁罰結果提案人委員 林月琴 王振旭 黃秀芳 郭育琴第三案"},{"start":31110.007,"end":31138.466,"text":"第四案主管機關應積極辦理下列事項一 定期滾動式檢討監視錄影資料的保存期限並研議訂定統一的調閱標準作業程序此作業程序應明訂資料申請審核與調閱流程二 要求托育機構建立監視錄影設備故障或錄影中斷的及時通報與限期修復機制並將此機制落實情況納入地方主管機關查核項目"},{"start":31140.848,"end":31149.413,"text":"針對夜間托育機構研議紅外線攝影機的裝設需求與相關規範提案人 委員 林月琴 王振旭黃秀芳 郭育晴"},{"start":31153.156,"end":31174.459,"text":"第五案主管機關應邀集民間團體機構托育人員代表專家學者以及相關承辦托育服務之機構單位共同研商監視器管理之相關規範其規範內容應兼顧合理性公平性與時效性提案人委員 林月琴 林淑芬 王育敏 張雅玲第六案"},{"start":31175.649,"end":31202.792,"text":"托育機構之相關托育人員若有涉及本法第36條不得對兒童有身心虐待體罰霸凌性騷擾不當管教及其他對兒童之身心暴力或不當對待之行為直轄市縣市依本法第46條第一項規定於二個工作日內進行處理而依同條第二項規定進行調查時應負責保存相關涉入影音資料至調查或法律程序終結後三個月"},{"start":31203.533,"end":31226.079,"text":"提案人委員王正旭 連署人委員林月琴 林淑芬第七案 中央主管機關應訂定相關規定使兒童執法訂代理人如發現兒童於托育機構期間有異常傷痕行為改變或其他具體懷疑時得檢據相關資料向直轄市縣市主管機關申請調閱特定期間之涉入影音資料"},{"start":31226.619,"end":31251.559,"text":"中央主管機關訂定之相關規定應包含調閱之條件隱私保護合理使用與救濟機制提案人委員王正旭連署人委員林月琴林淑芬第八案授權中央主管機關建制違反兒童托育服務法查詢系統公布違反本法應公告之行為人姓名托育機構之名稱該機構負責人姓名及場所地址"},{"start":31252.239,"end":31265.738,"text":"因並公布其處分其日違反條文及罰還金額供社會大眾查詢提案人委員王振旭連署人委員林月琴 林淑芬第九案針對兒童托育服務法草案第30條第一項"},{"start":31268.161,"end":31284.755,"text":"托育機構應裝設監視錄影設備妥善管理攝錄影音資料至少保存30日並加以保密以及第30條第二項托育機構應將前項攝錄影音資料傳送至直轄市縣市主管機關建置之網際網路系統儲存"},{"start":31285.976,"end":31304.472,"text":"不得規避妨礙或拒絕 中央主管機關應訂定相關規定授權直轄市縣市主管機關定期追蹤檢查托育機構之攝錄攝錄設備運作錄影設備運作資料儲存以及上傳 提案人委員王振旭 聯署人委員林月琴楊耀"},{"start":31305.333,"end":31326.585,"text":"第十案 建請主管機關因參考幼照法第39條規定於本法三讀施行後邀請家長組織參與直轄市縣市主管機關對於托育服務評鑑之規劃提案人委員王玉敏 連署人委員陳昭芝 陳金輝第十一案 鑑於居家托育人員面臨老化危機"},{"start":31327.225,"end":31341.357,"text":"政府應解決托育服務供給方面所面臨之人才問題中央主管機關針對居家托育之發展及推動政策應每二年檢討修正提案人委員林淑芬 聯署人委員王振旭 林月琴"},{"start":31342.95,"end":31362.556,"text":"第十二案中央主管機關並應督導地方主管機關建立一致且具操作性的抽查原則查閱程序及記錄方式包含抽查比例時段選取異常通報流程及資訊安全管理等項目主管機關應避免抽查作業流於例行或反鎖"},{"start":31363.816,"end":31382.891,"text":"確保查閱內容具有實質性與代表性提案人委員林月琴 連署人委員王振旭 楊耀第十三案 中央主管機關因警守並落實居家托育為安置之補充性措施並督促直轄市縣市於五年內完備安置機構與寄養家庭之量能"},{"start":31383.471,"end":31398.805,"text":"提案人委員林淑芬 連署人委員王振旭 林月琴第十四案 請衛生福利部於本法三讀後三個月內提出下列配套規範一 建立兒童隱私分級保護研修兒童及少年福利與權益保障法實"},{"start":31400.306,"end":31418.736,"text":"評估研擬並公告兒童隱私分級保護機制二 資安管理與專責人力強化建立防備機制與內部存取控管規範三 托育從業人員心理健康與工作支持調查監管與政策對托育人員心理健康及流動率的影響"},{"start":31419.676,"end":31435.661,"text":"明確訂定設置監視錄影設備之合理範圍四 前端預防與資源配置研修兒童及少年福利與權益保障法時評估納入提升高風險家庭篩檢與社工支持以及輕職教育普及化程度"},{"start":31436.241,"end":31453.028,"text":"五 政策檢討與報告 應定期檢討地方政府整體落實情形並於每年度向立法院提出書面報告提案人委員林月晴 王正旭 林淑芬 郭育晴第十五案 要求行政主管機關於托育服務相關案件進入審議程序前"},{"start":31454.649,"end":31481.225,"text":"應保障與事件具直接利害關係之當事人或其法定代理人得依法申請調閱完整調查報告內容其涉及第三人個人資料或依法應保護事項者得依個人資料保護法及相關規定進行去識別化或適當遮蔽後提供不得以概括性理由拒絕提供主管機關並應檢討並建立托育服務案件調查報告之調閱程序與作業原則"},{"start":31483.146,"end":31508.902,"text":"提案人委員林月琴 連署人委員王振旭 黃秀芳第十六案 請衛生福利部會同地方主管機關研議建立退託後之追蹤管理機制就經依第六十三條處分之居家托育人員與其退託退場後持續追蹤一年掌握其後續是否在行從事未登記居家托育服務之情形並明確規範地方政府之追蹤"},{"start":31510.544,"end":31528.104,"text":"訪視及查核作業方式 提案人委員林月琴 連署人委員林淑芬 劉建國 宣讀完畢好 謝謝 現在處理附帶決議既有16案 那其中第一案已經在上個會期通過我們現在請自第二案起來做處理請問第二案 行政單位有意見"},{"start":31532.517,"end":31550.108,"text":"第二案的部分我們會儘量來訂不過因為其實照現在整個下來的話我們整個算了一下包括要授權訂立的授權法規跟相關的公告的事項大概已經超過20項而且因為配合這個在"},{"start":31552.309,"end":31579.68,"text":"現在的草案的最後一條它的公佈時間是由行政院來定那我們建議這個跟委員申請一下是不是爭取一下這個時間是不是可以給我們稍微長一點那如果可以的話是不是可以給我們到一年以上好 這個兩個提案委員都連署人是不是可以表示意見"},{"start":31581.622,"end":31582.083,"text":"現在處理第二案"},{"start":31620.157,"end":31625.691,"text":"DN可以嗎確定一下是本來是六個月要改成一年嗎對對對"},{"start":31630.839,"end":31653.316,"text":"這個執法通常是定例的時間是一年以內是跟委員報告如果說一般法律修正那他如果是修正後就公佈施行的話那確實我們的法規密配套的法規密你通常在六個月之內要配套做完成那不過因為兒童法的話整個條文數量非常大其實先前大概討論過的現在施行日期是由行政院來定"},{"start":31654.056,"end":31678.076,"text":"那而且因為考慮到要訂的授權法規明令真的量非常多大概二十幾個那參考先前立法院通過的那個精神衛生法的部分他大概是修二十八個他其實是花了兩年的時間齁那我們是建議我們也盡量我們願意盡量來趕那所以是不是有可能結果是給我們一年的時間齁 以上阿弥陀佛 好嗎OK 好"},{"start":31681.4,"end":31705.448,"text":"好那我們就修正通過繼續處理第三案請問行政機關有意見第三案這個這個我們可以遵照辦理遵照辦理委員沒有意見沒有我們就照案通過處理第四案請問行政機關有意見"},{"start":31712.418,"end":31727.596,"text":"我可不可以講一下因為現在這邊有點我那時候看就有點怪第一個就是在最後像有夜間你們有夜間托浴嗎沒有的話晚上還要用這些所以我不知道說你們自己沒有覺得這一些是有問題嗎"},{"start":31733.775,"end":31749.016,"text":"晚上就沒有小孩目前是幾乎都目前是幾乎沒有夜間托嬰所以我說你要同意這個嗎因為我覺得有點怪上次我看就有點所以我們會建議我們也確實是覺得建議在這邊是可以我們把它刪除"},{"start":31749.537,"end":31763.819,"text":"那未來當然如果配合托育需要未來發展這樣的服務的時候其實即使沒有附帶決議我們還是可以那個因為他是托育服務他在機構端的時候他本來就是還是要做一個就要有那個錄像保存的動作"},{"start":31765.72,"end":31792.745,"text":"還有這邊有寫說統一的調閱標準作業程序我們都沒有訂嗎這個在配合現在還在保留的第30條所以他本來就是會要在這個未來的授權的法規命令裡面來做統一的處理所以第一點的部分我們是可以遵照這個委員的附帶決議那未來在訂這個這個法規命令的時候我們去把相關的流程跟程序做一個比較清楚的規範"},{"start":31799.127,"end":31811.972,"text":"因為前面是保留條文"},{"start":31820.639,"end":31833.835,"text":"不是 我剛剛也有要做宣讀要處理 要徵詢大家的意見也不是我直接說要怎麼樣怎樣嘛因為剛剛後來決議他們前任黨員自己都有看過了啊我怎麼知道現在又看一半 又看這麼久"},{"start":31835.919,"end":31863.449,"text":"然後我是不是建議因為你看他30條他明顯就是30條就是保留的條文你這邊要馬上通過附帶決議這個在審理程序上是有點奇怪我是建議因為剛宣讀完了那是不是就是這些附帶決議我看他們也是臨時這樣一直在看就是回去再仔細看一下然後連同前面保留的條文然後再去溝通然後下一次就一併把它處理完我是建議啦"},{"start":31869.383,"end":31895.578,"text":"沒有剛剛這個休息之前休息的那個休息我已經有走過去那邊有看署長一直在看的有在有在趕快看你現在就跳到旁邊一直看看大家意見沒有意見"},{"start":31906.869,"end":31932.977,"text":"主席可不可以建議因為的確像殷敏委員提的那30條事實上的確那還沒有那可是其他條我覺得可以的話還是因為已經是第五次了因為我覺得還是外在還是對這個法有很高的期待所以是儘快所以我們是不是其他沒有保留的條文的附帶決議是不是可以就先行討論然後把它處理掉"},{"start":31934.557,"end":31957.305,"text":"就至少 至少減少掉一些量嘛像比如八 負債局那個第八案的話那是七十二條就不是三十條啊那還有二十三條啊 三十九條是不是先來把它做確認其他只要三十條有真的保留的我們就先不討論主席這樣可以嗎可以啊 怎麼不可以好 那 您講得很好啊"},{"start":31965.478,"end":31991.504,"text":"所以第3案先保留了好不好那現在第5案30條的是不是就先保留好就建立保留直接到第8條可以嗎第8案72條的所以第6案可以保留對不對對都是30條的都保留可以嗎第6案不是30條對第7案可以保留第8案"},{"start":31996.508,"end":32016.161,"text":"來第八案行政機關表示意見遵照辦理遵照辦理委員你有沒有其他意見沒有第九也是保留我們就照案通過第九案保留第十案可以討論來第十案要不要保留行政機關表示意見"},{"start":32020.322,"end":32044.785,"text":"可以遵照辦理第十可以遵照辦理那各位有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就召喚通過第十一案第十一的話我記得兩年檢討修正已經進到條文了所以這個部分我們遵照辦理行政機關遵照辦理各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就召喚通過"},{"start":32046.448,"end":32072.897,"text":"第12案也是保留啊13案行政機關表示意見第13案我們遵照辦理好遵照辦理 各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照案通過 繼續處理第14案請行政機關表示意見32條保留"},{"start":32075.308,"end":32099.113,"text":"好 繼續處理第15條第15案第15案的部分這個剛才在審議的過程其實有提到就是我們會建議在這個調查案件處理的時候是提供完整的調查報告那調查報告裡面就會含事實及理由那這個部分的話"},{"start":32104.922,"end":32124.337,"text":"這個應該是審議啦審議結果會有完會有充分的事實及理由那我們是建議這個部分的話文字是不是可以調查報告內容就是提供完整的審議結果那我們把這個文字做一個修正 以上來 底安委有沒有見"},{"start":32128.466,"end":32142.117,"text":"在哪邊可以在第委員的附帶決議在第二段的第四行第四行然後呢這個當事人獲取法定的德醫法申請調調閱完整的審議報審議結論審議結果"},{"start":32153.829,"end":32168.475,"text":"我為什麼不要是審議結果因為為什麼因為如果行為人可以看調查報告反而是受害者不能看調查報告過往事實上是那個那個對話的內容裡邊基本上有時候不是我講的內容主席因為這一條保留所以我們是第15案保留來繼續處理第16案"},{"start":32184.288,"end":32210.553,"text":"第十六案那剛才有跟月刑委員做一個報告那我們建議文字上做一個調整那就是各位委抱歉我們還來不及打成還來不及打出來那第六這個附帶決議主要是針對居家托育人員退場以後的一個追蹤管理那我們建議在第二段的第四行"},{"start":32212.355,"end":32216.033,"text":"那把後 這個與其退脫退場後"},{"start":32219.053,"end":32245.051,"text":"持續追蹤一年這六個字我們建議可以刪除但是要掌握但是後以下就還是接續到委員原來的決議文字就是掌握其後續是否再行從事未登記居家托育服務之情形然後也遵照剛才委員的提示就是並對經廢止設立許可的托育機構就是除了居家以外連機構也並納進來"},{"start":32246.952,"end":32272.535,"text":"然後掌握有無借民重新申請設立情勢然後接到原來的文字明確規範地方政府之追蹤訪視及查核作業方式以防度違法收拖之黑數發生我們再加一段文字可是我對於那個一年我同意刪除可是持續追蹤這四個字我不同意刪除這樣"},{"start":32277.563,"end":32301.578,"text":"其他的就按照你們的文字就只有那4個字怎樣可以嗎可以專稿辦理好那我們就依照行政單位剛剛建立的文字修正後通過好謝謝時間快到了那再請教各位是要要要出委員會還是要留在委員會"},{"start":32305.856,"end":32309.819,"text":"出委員會然後現在有多少條是保留目前22條嘛對不對22條"},{"start":32321.636,"end":32336.765,"text":"因為這個只是形式上而已啦事實上我們到協商出委員會以後還是要run的一次啊那還是要就把我們沒有共識的保留的條款還要繼續再討論那在委員會也是討論出委員會也是討論其實就是出委員會跟不出委員會程序上要跑的討論的都不會跑不掉只是說要放在委員會裡面"},{"start":32350.458,"end":32360.381,"text":"好像看起來進度還比較慢這樣子所以我個人是沒有意見要出跟不出都一樣其實都一樣的意思"},{"start":32367.446,"end":32386.781,"text":"因為我覺得這個會期已經是在剩下如果委員會一定到1月底了那如果我覺得我們委員會還是有很多事情要去處理如果是到協商的話是不是不占到委員會的時間我個人是比較支持再去做協商那看大家其他人的意見"},{"start":32388.891,"end":32397.676,"text":"我想到了因為出委員會以後有其他委員會的人有意見的話也可以趁那個機會趕快來大家整合的會比較快"},{"start":32399.812,"end":32427.51,"text":"沒有來的通通都是沒意見的如果你各個政黨或是其他的委員會因為這是我們衛黃委員會主審可是如果出了委員會就變成是院會協商了那院會協商的話其他黨其他委員會的委員有意見大家都一起來協商的時候一起一起討論必其功於一役不要在這裡討論好了出了委員會以後其他有意見了又到協商又來一次"},{"start":32428.09,"end":32456.066,"text":"那也是有一點麻煩啦出委員會以後還是召委排啊對啊召委要先排啊不是那個政黨喔還是召委先排他就是協商啦他還是協商啦我覺得主要是因為我們保留條文太多啦對啦通常協商其實不會但是我的意思是說出委員會以後即便是留召委他排但還是叫做協商而且還是叫做政黨協商"},{"start":32457.247,"end":32483.839,"text":"而現在在這裡就只是我們委員會的委員會的討論我們自己的事情但是到初委員會到政黨協商的時候就是正式的政黨協商委員會的召委排一次還沒有公示再到請我們的院長再請院長再協商一次所以對啦這個都一樣但是說他的權利其他委員會的委員來主張的權利"},{"start":32486.32,"end":32487.323,"text":"他的權利會不一樣"},{"start":32489.448,"end":32516.442,"text":"好了因為保留比例很高就尊重召委了看你你的時間怎麼樣如果你的時間其實在下下禮拜馬上就可以排一次那我覺得根本沒有差如果覺得下下禮拜以後有很多議案要排已經沒有時間然後下禮拜會運用我是很怕那個茶禮香來的人更少就是可能某個下午可能出席人更少我不知道那個對正式委員會來的可能還比例委員人數比較多"},{"start":32517.356,"end":32525.591,"text":"我想我再補充一下我們這幾個絕對不管留在委員會還是政黨協商大家都一樣要來"},{"start":32526.826,"end":32551.57,"text":"我們這幾個大家都要為頭顧到尾所以對我們來說都沒有影響而有影響的是其他非本委員會的委員還有其他政黨的代表的人其實他們就有影響了對他們來講參與在這裡他只有討論權他沒有表決權但如果到協商 出委員會去協商他們就有參與權了是這樣的差別好 趙薇妳再聽"},{"start":32560.244,"end":32562.731,"text":"問妳的意見 妳要跟我決定對 這樣就不要問我了 好"},{"start":32565.942,"end":32589.088,"text":"這樣啦因為因為保留22條基本上還是我們在這邊認真審查委員的諸多的跟行政單位不同的意見嘛那到時候協商還是還是我們這些委員會出席因為我們在這委員會審兒托的草案已經已經第六次了我們已經第六次了所以我們也希望讓大家有一個有有比較誠摯的空間所以"},{"start":32591.028,"end":32608.776,"text":"我們現在做一下決議啦 兒童托育服務法草案等30案審查完畢並按凝聚審查報告提報院會討論那院會討論本案時 由召集委員建國補充說明那請問本案是否需交由黨人協商要 好 那交由黨人協商 第二"},{"start":32610.546,"end":32627.676,"text":"本法案條次條文中原理條次及法次用語調整授權議事人員整理相關立法說明授權行政單位提供那有關於本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報好本日會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}