{"total":{"value":97,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2025-12-24"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"17147","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17147","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6856f793b294c435070ac003cba48680cf83fa04411479d882a566ab4756c7faf075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-24T08:36:35+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T15:00:00+08:00","duration":23005,"影片長度":"06:23:25","委員發言時間":"08:36:35 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主計處所統計的必要生活支出大幅上升光是民國108年到112年年間重要的民生物資CPI累積漲幅就已經高達13%"},{"start":1599.443,"end":1622.239,"text":"津貼調整幅度遠遠無法緩解老農承受的生活壓力每四年才檢討一次的津貼顯然是緩不及急第二本席主張提高津貼金額落實對老農的基本保障去年3月本席所提的修法就是本屆第一個主張將老農津貼調整式"},{"start":1625.141,"end":1640.38,"text":"調整至每個月一萬兩千元目的就是把過去多年未漲未能反應物價上漲的部分還給農民真正落實最基本的生活保障第三調整過時的排付條款"},{"start":1643.183,"end":1654.148,"text":"避免錯殺需要被照顧的老農 現行的排付條款自民國100年訂定後 十多年來未隨物價房價變動調整 期間土地與房屋等不動產指數大幅上漲 既無法真實反映實際財富狀況 也讓過時的門檻"},{"start":1666.174,"end":1690.392,"text":"製造了新的制度性不公最後老農津貼已經實施了近30年不應該再以暫行之名照顧農民老年農民福利津貼自民國84年實行至今早已成為我國重要且穩定的社會福利制度條例名稱不應該繼續使用暫行兩字"},{"start":1691.753,"end":1708.843,"text":"制度的定位必須回歸正軌各位同仁本席要再次強調修正老農制度老農津貼制度修正老農津貼制度是補救一個已經不符合現況的制度立法院有責任"},{"start":1710.731,"end":1724.644,"text":"立法院有責任確保長年為台灣農業付出一生的長輩那在物價高漲的今天能不能保有最基本也最有尊嚴的生活敬請各位同仁支持本案 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請徐議政委員來做提案說明"},{"start":1744.89,"end":1760.635,"text":"主席還有各位官員各位同仁大家早今天其實站在這裡心情是非常沉重的因為我們常說農為國之本台灣有今天這樣經濟發展事實上靠的就是農業但是目前我們給的老農今天一個月是新台幣8110元各位"},{"start":1763.817,"end":1776.744,"text":"8,110元現在能做些什麼現在隨便一個便當都要100多塊而8,110元平均下來一天只有270塊可以用所以可以說是農民簡直在吃土這不是進行式而是現在的一個慘況"},{"start":1779.625,"end":1804.064,"text":"那我們回頭看看這些數據這幾年來物價像做火箭一樣衝上去但是我們的老農今天卻像是釘在地板上動彈不得依據衛福部公告的標準今年的台灣的最低生活費是15515元可是我們給的老農今天竟然只是最低生活費的一半這不僅是不夠更是羞辱我們辛苦一輩子的老農民"},{"start":1804.944,"end":1818.468,"text":"雖然我們這份提案的原始版本我本來是先希望調到一萬元但是看到這陣子物價失控的程度以及國民黨團大家共同的決心所以我們現在要告訴行政部門為了讓農民能夠活得有尊嚴不能在貧窮線下掙扎我們主張應該要一步到位直接比照最低生活費的標準將老農津貼調漲到每個月一萬五千元"},{"start":1831.492,"end":1858.045,"text":"這不是漫天喊價而是讓老農能夠活下去的救命錢除了金額太少現在的制度更是僵化到令人憤怒因為老農今天每四年才能檢討一次而現在的物價指數每天都在飆漲所以本席也主張這次修法要把調整週期縮短改為每兩年就要檢討一次而且如果消費者物價指數年成長率超過3%就要立刻啟動調整"},{"start":1860.286,"end":1874.765,"text":"還有一個問題就是排富條款目前我們的排富門檻已經整整超過14年沒有調整了那這些老農住在祖傳的房子裡雖然帳面的價值變高但他們的口袋根本沒有錢結果變成假富人真貧窮"},{"start":1875.766,"end":1891.17,"text":"所以本席也主張要放寬排付條款將土地房屋價值的門檻調高把那些無辜被排除在外的乾坤狼重新納入照顧的範圍請大家一起來照顧我們這些辛苦的勞農 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳哲輝委員代表台灣民眾黨團來做提案說明沒有"},{"start":1905.831,"end":1908.416,"text":"好 接下來請呂毅霖委員來做提案說明"},{"start":1916.378,"end":1943.259,"text":"謝謝主席本席是針對老農福利津貼暫行條例的第4條修正草案本席跟其他的委員17人考量通貨膨脹 物價上揚對於退休農民的生活已經形成了巨大的壓力然而老農津貼每4年才會參照消費者物價指數的成長率進行調整現行的調整週期恐怕難以反映到當前的經濟現實"},{"start":1945.26,"end":1958.346,"text":"所以在第四條的部分為了反映實際的社會經濟的情勢應該改為兩年檢討一次以利於維繫農民的福利同時這個津貼的基數也應該從現行的8,110元調整為1萬元"},{"start":1963.709,"end":1984.581,"text":"而且現在的物價指數也一直都通貨膨脹的提高所以也應該要照成長率來提高所以才這樣子的話才可以落實了保障農民老年退休的生活的初衷謝謝好接下來請丁學忠委員來做提案說明"},{"start":1996.579,"end":2020.066,"text":"感謝教育我們各位農民 大家好修正老年農民獲利 緊貼條例生害農民應該有的款領跟正義 均促修正這是為了飛營貴企向低估的膨脹現實也是兌現政府照顧農民承諾的 必要行動第一"},{"start":2020.586,"end":2023.967,"text":"現行勞動緊張調整的機制已經明顯對越到有上漲的速度今天受到通訪影響租界主所通過的紀律、心話、技術大幅上升"},{"start":2041.089,"end":2046.872,"text":"好像民國10多年 中央那邊政府給市區的內地政府就已經大概13%經濟調整的程度不夠就解放我們勞動生死的生活的壓力我們4年才撿到這塊經濟"},{"start":2066.893,"end":2075.762,"text":"顯現固執環及自治在軍事所主張的體育經濟經驗落實對勞動機構的構想古年三月軍事提出的手法是更改第一項主張勞動經濟條件更規劃一萬兩千塊的體額"},{"start":2090.316,"end":2104.849,"text":"我就是要把過去兩年未邀的婚姻舞伎上場的過分先害給農民,真的就是最之前的身外過程第三,調整過去的開戶門檻,撤戶撤殺"},{"start":2111.195,"end":2117.117,"text":"需要供照顧的牢籠現行的開戶條款主任過三年訂好寫了後十幾年來無所謂就無法溝通廣給建棟調遷期間土地甲鋼瓦頂骨董山基層大幅上漲我真的歡迎到世界這個財富的總統也給貴士的門檻"},{"start":2138.683,"end":2149.672,"text":"婚禮造成到我們製造性的無功夫所以老農今天是已經三十年不應該以戰行之名照顧我們這個農民老農農民"},{"start":2154.392,"end":2172.603,"text":"福利今天 自民國94年實施到這陣子 早已經成為我們中華民國重要和穩定社會福利的這個制度到了明年 國民改革 繼續使用暫行兩億的這個制度定位繼續要來回歸正軌"},{"start":2177.006,"end":2179.31,"text":"各位總理 軍事決戰所叫做修正牢籠緊貼的制度是構造一個已經和復合成功的制度你看他有幾年來合作"},{"start":2191.055,"end":2198.101,"text":"我們這個市長為臺灣農業付出一生的長輩當這個有給高漲的今天日能夠是最極限也最有尊嚴的這個生活拜託我們各位總理來支持我們感謝"},{"start":2213.305,"end":2227.95,"text":"好 謝謝丁委員的提案說明那麼等一下請部長來做這個說明那在部長說明的中間如果有提案委員有到現場還是會給各位提案委員來做說明但是如果見到選黨我們就這個提案說明就結束"},{"start":2229.951,"end":2257.939,"text":"在這邊委員會做這樣的宣告那我想跟各位同仁報告今天針對這個老農老年農民的福利津貼戰刑條例來提出相關的行動草案我們把它排審那最主要核心目標只有一個就是讓老農的津貼可以跟得上這個物價讓國家照顧要跟得上這個時代政府法律從84年時到現在走了快30年戰刑這兩個字真的是非常不合時宜那我們主張三處確立國家"},{"start":2258.919,"end":2286.459,"text":"對農民永久的這樣的一個責任所以這次的修法我們也設出了這三支建那來解決老農的困境第一支建就是整個津貼的金額務必要提高物價表大家都非常清楚所以應該也做快速來做因應跟調整那這個部分也跟行政單位有做相關的這樣的溝通然後做很多這樣的一個調查所以提高津貼"},{"start":2287.219,"end":2312.72,"text":"也要顧及到這個行政單位的財政狀況那所以我們諸多委員在經過與行政單位的整個的衡量農民福利與各方面的財政狀況進行試算了以後我們主張應該就是要調高來給予給老人最這個直接的經濟上的一個支持那第二支鍵就是加速現在的法律是4年來檢討一次物價調整這個進貼這個太慢了所以"},{"start":2315.803,"end":2341.89,"text":"等到調整時農民的荷包早就已經縮水所以我們在提案就是改為每年來做調整物價漲今天就要跟著漲反應要及時我想這部分還是請我們諸多委員來共同支持那最後就是公道很多老農在鄉下房子地皮沒賣手上也沒有什麼現金但是因為政府調漲公告地價導致他們站面資產增加"},{"start":2342.83,"end":2355.787,"text":"結果就被排污條款刷掉 領不到津貼我想這非常的冤枉所以我們這次也依照房價指數將排污門檻從500萬提高到1225萬那唯一飛龍社的自住房屋門檻也從400萬"},{"start":2357.489,"end":2384.926,"text":"那再度來調高希望可以保障真正需要幫助到的老農那我想這個部分簡單做這樣的一個說明最主要還是農民年輕的時候顧國家也顧大家肚子那他年老的時候國家也要顧他過個好日子所以也請各位委員不分黨派大家共同支持來讓這樣的一個法律可以修正到保障更多的我們的農民那現在我再請陳廷輝委員來做提案說明"},{"start":2395.763,"end":2421.758,"text":"謝謝昭偉我想我們對於老農津貼的一個暫行條例其實我們都希望說他可以把它變成是一個正式的條例而不是暫行條例那第二個部分是我們現在一直強調的排富在排富的部分我們已經超過15年並沒有去修整我們裡面的排富條款所以導致在我們整個"},{"start":2423.359,"end":2438.17,"text":"我們重點的一個房子土地的價格都往上提升而且這個提升的幅度之高完全是對於老農是非常不公平的幾乎只要有自己一間房子"},{"start":2439.512,"end":2455.547,"text":"單純的居住而已它就可能被排附掉所以我們也希望說在這個如果是自己居住的房子證明它就只有這個房子也應該在這個所謂的計算的範圍之外"},{"start":2457.268,"end":2477.343,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分是我們現在一直強調的我們要給老農他後面的生活是有依靠的然後呢在我們整個所謂的檢討機制當中現在是以CPI四年檢討一次可是大家知道我們的"},{"start":2479.085,"end":2491.885,"text":"這個物價指數的調漲每年的速度飛快而且它的速度完全已經不符合現在生活的一個基本支出所以我們認為在我們現在"},{"start":2493.968,"end":2522.666,"text":"所提到的最低生活費都需要是一萬五千五百一十五可是我們目前雖然有調整了四年CPI調整一次那目前也只有調漲到八千多這八千多跟一萬五千多的差距實在太遠了所以我們希望農業部要一次能夠把它調漲在生活費的生活支出的基準"},{"start":2523.366,"end":2544.068,"text":"能夠討論一個基礎之後我們要求每年都要以CPI滾動式檢討這才能符合我們照顧老農的一個方向跟目標謝謝好 謝謝陳委員提案說明 謝謝那我們接下來就請農業部陳俊基部長來做說明"},{"start":2559.862,"end":2574.671,"text":"主席各位委員大家早那今天大院未還經濟及內政聯席會議審查有關於老農福利津貼的一個修正那我想首先還是"},{"start":2575.652,"end":2597.377,"text":"代表農業部及所有的農民感謝我們所有的委員來支持我們農民的相關的一個退休後的一個生活的一個保障那以下我就用簡報的方式來說明本部針對委員的提案的一些回饋跟後續工討論的一個一個方向下一頁"},{"start":2604.298,"end":2624.462,"text":"那簡報大綱大概封合五點請參閱下一頁目前我們現在福利津貼在發放的時候是每四年依據消費者物價指數就是CPI的成本來調整而且是調升不調降然後目前我想每個月每人每個月是8,110塊"},{"start":2626.903,"end":2646.129,"text":"在現行的規定裡面有所謂的排付的一個規定但是這個排付的規定是在102年就開始實施以後就沒有調整過那相關的排付大概有三個部分一個部分是相關的所得的部分是達到50萬就不能領取老農津貼那"},{"start":2646.949,"end":2661.421,"text":"土地跟房屋價值如果合計500萬那如果沒有農舍 唯一自住房子的話可以扣除400萬那目前發放的情形是大概全年發放了大概54.7萬人那全年發放的金額是502億下一頁"},{"start":2667.762,"end":2678.475,"text":"包括委員在提這些提案的時候其實農業部也一直關心的老農福利津貼的一個調整情形那我們從這張表可以看得到其實我們的物價指數從102年"},{"start":2680.862,"end":2703.027,"text":"起開始去計算的時候到目前為止已經大概15.96%但是更重要就是公告的土地的限值從102年開始到現在已經提高了64.78%但是我們在過往的時候針對排富的這些財產的部分並沒有去做調整大概就只有針對額度的部分"},{"start":2703.847,"end":2718.168,"text":"那113年排富不合格的人數大概是14500人左右所以我們在思考的時候大概也會從這樣的一個數據來思考說後續要怎麼去做相關的一個調整下一頁"},{"start":2720.646,"end":2735.792,"text":"那我們先分析一下目前所有的委員所提送的版本那大概我分為三類第一類的部分是額度的調整的部分那額度的調整的部分有從不需要調一直到調一萬兩千元"},{"start":2736.272,"end":2761.434,"text":"那當然在上個禮拜有很多委員也希望提的更高不過我們是依據送到委員會這邊來的版本大概一萬兩千元那調整的週期有些是依照我們現在的那也有希望說一年的或者是一年到兩年之間就要去做調整的那調整的門檻有3%有5%的部分那最主要就是大概用這樣的下一頁"},{"start":2763.407,"end":2788.568,"text":"那第二個部分是排富的所得的部分那所得的部分現在是50萬那委員的提案中大概有55萬一直到65萬那甚至於有一些委員希望說取消排富的一個條件那至於土地房屋的調整的額度的部分那有從750萬一直到1200萬的部分那也當然有委員是希望取消排富"},{"start":2789.769,"end":2807.04,"text":"至於說唯一自住房扣除的一個額度的調整現在是400萬委員有提案是從600萬一直到790萬不等當然也有委員提議說乾脆取消排付下一頁"},{"start":2808.874,"end":2827.053,"text":"所以根據剛才很多委員所提到的部分包括額度包括排付的條件那其實農業部也針對委員的一些意見也經過很仔細的討論然後也送到行政院去做相關的討論那基本上"},{"start":2828.995,"end":2849.26,"text":"農業部的立場是在政府財政可負擔的情況之下是可以朝著額度方向提升的一個方向去做但是很重要就是我們必須考慮到我們的經費的一個可行性至於說過去是每四年根據CPI調整我們也知道"},{"start":2850.8,"end":2878.641,"text":"最近幾年的CPI指數的一個提升可能根據上一次到現在已經達到3.9%左右所以我們也同意說在這個四年的期間之內我們可以定一個期中檢討的門檻就是舉個例子就是說我們每兩年檢討一次那檢討的時候如果說它有一個觸發的機制就是說它的CPI達到某一個程度"},{"start":2879.441,"end":2900.58,"text":"我們都來調整如果沒有達到那個程度我們就不調整就是其中的一個檢討的機制檢討的機制以本部的立場我想根據過往的CPI的一個成長我們建議是3%到5%之間如果它觸發了CPI達到這個值的時候是可以啟動一個適度的調整"},{"start":2901.781,"end":2917.389,"text":"那至於排富的部分因為剛才已經講了排富的部分我們從102年大概到現在已經都沒有調整那的確是應該調整的部分所以我們是朝著可以放寬排富的標那個方向來處理那"},{"start":2918.55,"end":2940.126,"text":"至於說排富的所得的部分是根據CPI這個比較沒有問題但是財產的部分我們是根據土地公告限值就是COV的部分那剛才我有秀出一張圖跟各位講從102年到113年我們的土地公告限值已經提高了64.78%其實相當大的一個幅度"},{"start":2940.826,"end":2969.322,"text":"所以我們希望說第一個所得可以針對CPI去重新調整去提高那第二個部分是針對土地的公告限值我們希望說也可以朝著這個排富的一個放寬的部分那我們也試算過了就是大概受益人數大概是3000人到7500人左右但是剛才也提到了各個委員的這些額度也好排富的這些金額也好並沒有"},{"start":2970.844,"end":2974.137,"text":"一些很一致的一個共識 下一頁"},{"start":2976.65,"end":3003.702,"text":"那我們也曾經試算過如果說以現行的八千一百一十塊我提高到那個九千一萬一萬五的時候相關的額外的經費我都也算出來那簡單的說現在目前的領取人數如果是以五十三萬人來說的話那相對的我每提高一千塊就需要五十需要應該是五十三億不只應該是"},{"start":3005.647,"end":3034.927,"text":"增加63億因為12個月一年12個月所以相對的就是說每提高1000塊的話要將近64億左右所以我以農業部的立場未來在討論這個額度的時候當然我們都希望說越高越好對農民越有保障但是考慮到很多跟其他的社會福利基金的制度的一個橫平性那當然農業部當然會以農民為優先的考量但是也必須考量到其他的一個社會福利"},{"start":3036.047,"end":3057.499,"text":"制度的一個很明信那更重要就是要考量我們的財政的一個能力那後續的部分我想這個就是由委員這邊來討論那我相信行政院的版本會盡快的送到立法院來因為行政院的內部的一個審查已經結束了那結束了以後只要通過院會就可以送到立法院來那希望下一頁"},{"start":3059.581,"end":3077.614,"text":"希望大家一起來跟委員一起的討論那再次重申本部持適當的一個額度的調整排幅的放寬來提供農民失智的一個幫助然後同時建立定期檢討決調整機制以合理適時的反映物價的一個波動"},{"start":3078.234,"end":3105.445,"text":"那整個大致上是跟委員提案的一個精神是一致的那後續我想再一起來努力我們朝一個比較有共識的方向來著手 以上好 謝謝部長 謝謝部長的說明接下來請進行詢問那做一下宣告"},{"start":3106.765,"end":3132.635,"text":"本會委員 本聯席會委員選擇時間為6加2分鐘那列席委員4分鐘4點半截止發言登記那委員如有書面質詢請於上月前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝來做發言"},{"start":3136.977,"end":3139.999,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩陳部長來 請部長好 部長早 部長這個是提案要提高老農津貼的委員的名單我知道剛剛由 到剛剛為止也有很多的更新就是各黨派都有 但其中還是以執政黨的這個委員最多 那我想請教部長 部長老農津貼暫行條例是法律案還是預算案是法律案"},{"start":3165.922,"end":3193.842,"text":"是法律案應該是法律案那部長修法提高老農津貼會不會增加政府的支出當然會當然會那立法委員有沒有權利提出提高老農津貼的修法呢我基本上我想建議可以修這個法是沒有問題的但是相對的我剛才說的那個額度的部分額度的部分從行政單位去提因為行政單位會考慮到議委有沒有權利提修法"},{"start":3194.002,"end":3221.736,"text":"我還是說嘛就是針對額度的部分應該是尊重行政院所提的因為這個部分是牽涉到預算的部分那委員是可以提高要提高但是如果指定一個金額的話那就是等於說相對的我這樣問的理由我想請你先看個影片我們先來確定一件事你們的第一點理由說違反憲法權利分立原則侵害行政權憲法規定本院提出預算"},{"start":3228.122,"end":3228.143,"text":"請時間請暫停"},{"start":3233.584,"end":3261.843,"text":"好 那就好 那不然我直接講 那像說行政院秘書長張東涵在司法法制委會說以財化法為例 他說是法律案包裝的預算案 影響到行政院編列預算的權益 所以是違憲的那我請教部長 按照行政院對財化法的邏輯 會影響行政院編列預算的法案就可能違憲 那麼假設我們最後通過劉昭偉的版本 劉靜活教委的版本 假設假設把老農經濟提高到每月1萬元 這樣有違憲嗎"},{"start":3264.105,"end":3269.052,"text":"我想如果各委員都支持行政院版本然後由行政院版本通過就沒有違憲"},{"start":3270.831,"end":3298.371,"text":"我剛剛提到的就是事實上你剛剛才說正在準備嘛所以我剛才說就是支持行政院的版本就絕對沒有問題沒有違憲的問題那立法委員你剛剛也有權利修法啊對 修法可以說提高我們支持委員提高但是額度的部分額度部分如果尊重立法行政院總統會不會不附屬不公佈呢如果沒有按照你所謂行政院的版本呢"},{"start":3299.768,"end":3314.994,"text":"我想農民福利的津貼是很多委員的一個共識那我希望支持行政院的版本因為行政院的版本後續會針對我們的經費我這樣說的理由是因為到目前為止只有立法院的版本立委版本那農業部"},{"start":3315.414,"end":3325.959,"text":"我們今天是備詢今天並不是在處理相關的一個法案的條文我為什麼這樣問後續的部分等行政院送出來了以後我們就會來一起來併審請尊重我的質詢在發出普發先進特別條例的時候執政黨一場違憲結果大罷免大失敗就行政院又說從善如虜才提出這個版本這時候又有這個執政黨立委改口說這是行政院幫立法院解套"},{"start":3339.105,"end":3354.767,"text":"那按照這位執政黨立委的邏輯我們今天審查老農津貼暫行條例沒有農業部的版本沒有行政院版本那怎麼解套呢我個人非常肯定我跟委員說明今天是整個的備詢的部分後續的部分如果說行政院的版本送進來以後就可以合併來審查"},{"start":3355.708,"end":3364.375,"text":"我們看過這樣的太多例子了這個行政整個怠惰我個人非常肯定召委今天排審我希望立法院包括委員能夠支持現在的總預算趕快進審因為審查總預算是立法院的一個權責我希望說這個"},{"start":3371.121,"end":3394.969,"text":"整個的預算趕快審對農民我們後續的支持才會有我進來這兩年我看到太被動了啦反正都是立法院委員先提出版本然後這個可是相對的我還是希望委員能夠支持整個總預算趕快送審因為總預算卡住了以後對農民的很多基礎建設都沒辦法要執行立法院三讀通過的這個條例好嗎可是相對的立法院的總執行更重要立法院的總執行更重要"},{"start":3396.21,"end":3414.688,"text":"11月租資禁運禁載期間 禁運禁載期間農業部說會擴大積壓額的這個供應量但事實上屠宰量是受影響的因為過去被拿來當廚餘餵養的這個動物性廢渣 下繳料也就是雞爪 雞脖子等等因為沒有辦法拿去餵豬了所以影響屠宰量 目前有報導指出未來全面禁止廚餘養豬的時候那積壓型等這個下繳料 要額外"},{"start":3419.472,"end":3446.775,"text":"額外清運處理的話每隻雞至少會上漲10塊錢以上請問農業部有掌握這個價格嗎還是已經都上漲了我們當然有掌握這個價格以現在的租價來講我們基本上大概是90塊 91塊最低不到89塊左右那其他的物料還是一致性在那邊的我還是跟委員強調所有的這些防疫是以非洲豬瘟的防疫是以防疫為重點"},{"start":3447.415,"end":3468.887,"text":"那現在中央應變中心並沒有解散所以中央應變中心就是為了讓這個非洲豬能夠很明確的是限住在台東市我們非常清楚因為現在的邊境管制跟這個海關的管制沒有辦法完全杜絕所以只好從這個廚餘下手不是 我們有三道防線第一道是邊境 第二道是後市場第三道才是養豬場"},{"start":3469.787,"end":3490.518,"text":"但是我剛剛只是請教部長就是說你做出這個處於這個就禁用在未租的這個情況下那有很多的這個成本清運處理成本還有這個當然我今天不提到這個所謂這個廢棄物的這個等等處理的量能等等我剛剛就是請教說你有沒有去了解這個掌握這個可能漲價的情況"},{"start":3491.058,"end":3509.742,"text":"我們所有的所有的這些養豬的這些飼料相關的成本我們都隨時在掌握我也跟委員講現在目前是禁止廚藝養豬那所有的東西都是用飼料的部分就沒有所謂說在這些飼料會漲價會降價因為這些物料都不能進來的我剛剛是美食記憶因為他後面的這個肺渣這個下腳肉他要重新去清運處理所以他的成本他的成本會上漲10塊錢你沒有好好聽清楚"},{"start":3520.384,"end":3529.169,"text":"沒有 相對的處理費的部分是由環境部會有經費去支應的好 推給環境部 好 我想說我不是推喔沒有 相關的這些處理費是環境部會編列經費的我再換一個問題這個分埔泥雞蛋事件三個月爆發了現在已經台灣第三次了這個問題一直存在表示說你沒有辦法好好處理那我們就必須回頭檢視台灣這個雞隻飼養的根本問題"},{"start":3546.218,"end":3552.321,"text":"因為芬芙尼是環境用藥它不是用在雞身上它必須是用在雞舍清空以後的消毒使用但是台灣的飼養環境很難執行了因為目前還是以格子龍為主根本就無法說清空這個雞舍那去年年初有個機構叫做"},{"start":3566.088,"end":3570.11,"text":"讓基於展示國際聯盟他針對亞洲還有紐西蘭大概有十幾個國家 總共十幾個國家做評比那檢視各國推動這個淡基產業轉型就非農飼養的政策結果滿分是140分你看看部長我們台灣剛剛得到29分這個慘不忍睹也蠻丟臉的"},{"start":3587.417,"end":3612.793,"text":"非農飼養不是只有動保的議題他會減少這個降低這個這個食安的風險跟感染風險雖然農業部你有訂定這個雞蛋友善生產系統的定義指南提供所謂的友善蛋農第一例貸款以及友善生產系統的標示但都停留在鼓勵的性質我完全沒有政策的這個有效的去執行所以你看看這個有掛鈴的地方就是這個廢除蛋積蛋積那個"},{"start":3615.474,"end":3638.041,"text":"融資的進度我們是零掛零分的我想請問部長你有沒有打算往廢除戰機融資用融資來飼養這個政策方向去做呢我跟你講我們政策上還是會去朝向一個合理的一個友善的一個飼養但是以現在目前台灣的這些養殖現況那基本上我們還是用鼓勵的方式去處理所以"},{"start":3640.402,"end":3659.039,"text":"委員所看到的 你看飛龍四陽的轉型措施我們是蠻高分的我們是比其他國家還高差不了多少 但是廢除的部分是比較慢慢廢除的部分是比較低但是我們國家最主要是一個希望由"},{"start":3660.4,"end":3683.797,"text":"業者自行的轉型 而不是用強制性的方式去處理那你現在還有這麼多理由 還在留在鼓勵那鼓勵也沒有結果啊 掛零的你也不講16分也很高嗎16分是倒數第二名啊當然都是我們一個非常執政上面或政策設計上的一個非常好的一個建議那我們會朝友善的方式來處理"},{"start":3685.796,"end":3703.9,"text":"那請農業多努力包括今天老農今天你們這個版本每次都是這樣子看到立法院提案要審查你們才跟進今天我們根本沒有這個農業部或行政院的版本可以討論沒有我剛才說今天只是備群大家交換意見後續行政院的版本送進來的話我會併案來審查總是看著辦這樣不好啦請多加油謝謝好謝謝陳委謝謝部長接下來請陳庭惠委來做訊答"},{"start":3717.121,"end":3743.78,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長來 請陳部長委員好部長 我想本來立法跟行政它的角色的不一樣是立法院 立法委員可以有建議權然後把這些建議權匯集之後由我們行政院依照我們可行的而且可以對農民最好的"},{"start":3744.54,"end":3767.697,"text":"版本我們提出最適當的然後再送到立法院來然後再去做雙向然後這個通過之後如果行政院版本通過那麼就是我們已經整合了包括我們的立法院委員的意見我們農民的意見還有我們現在整個財主單位的一個看法"},{"start":3768.257,"end":3785.18,"text":"用一個最能夠執行的方向我想這是我們一直以來行政立法分工合作最重要的依據所以我們也一直在要求就是說確實我們所有的立委"},{"start":3785.8,"end":3802.274,"text":"對於老農今天我們已經提過了很久的一個狀況而且我們討論數次在我們的經濟委員會當中其實我們已經討論很久很久很久了所以在這個部分大家認為時間到了"},{"start":3804.673,"end":3819.77,"text":"尤其排富居然已經超過15年沒有去做調整可是當我們整個物價跟房屋不斷的在調整它的地價指數還有我們的一個房屋"},{"start":3821.471,"end":3848.137,"text":"這個數字已經超乎了老農他可以維持可以承擔的方向所以我認為時間到了所以為什麼現在我們的召委要排是因為時間到了而且我們也看到我們目前所有中央曾經衛福部有公告的就是我們低收入戶最低生活費的一個公告基準就是15515"},{"start":3852.13,"end":3875.115,"text":"可是我們雖然老農今天我們當時候有修法一次就是把它依照4年的CPI去做調整可是調整到現在也只有到8,110元這跟我們的實質生活費的一個看法是有實質的落差所以我們才認為說時間到了"},{"start":3877.967,"end":3895.953,"text":"一定要趕快對於在老農津貼的一個檢討機制我們要調整就是CPI每年一定要做檢討不能四年啦 四年太久了每一年他叫我們CPI的指數去做調整"},{"start":3898.097,"end":3919.953,"text":"這樣人民會覺得政府跟他們站在一起不然你不給資助一直在去我們的生活經驗一直沒改變所以大家也認為時間到了所以我們認為說現在我們行政院責無旁貸 不能再拖"},{"start":3921.348,"end":3944.831,"text":"我們的版本這麼多 尤其你若不站出來講大家好好講甚至是農民的想法 農會是最直接的什麼一個基準讓人民能夠接受 讓農民能夠接受到底是多少數額 一萬或是有人漫天海 現在已經海到一萬五了"},{"start":3946.454,"end":3968.928,"text":"這些都是在我們整個建議案立委的建議案裡面我們曾經看到的可是最後的主導權是行政院你要去弄出一套我們可以做的而不是每一次弄出來讓大家漫天喊價之後這個跟我過去說真的我從政27年了"},{"start":3971.221,"end":3986.293,"text":"過去大家跟我們講說省預算就是不能增加預算可以刪預算 不能增預算可是現在大家是在漫天寒假然後搞了一堆政府根本無法執行的案子當然你明天會很慘"},{"start":3988.257,"end":4010.998,"text":"但是當你沒辦法執行的時候不是更糟糕嗎不是又把人民的權利跟義務又把它往回拉了嗎這跟我們民意代表在所謂第一線為人民發聲的一個阻止跟目標是不一樣的所以我會講那麼多是我認為時間到了"},{"start":4013.715,"end":4036.772,"text":"不論是從我們檢討每年CPI要檢討一次然後我們要一次把所謂的現在是調整到8118這是不夠的我們要怎麼拿到哪一個一次到的數額然後再每年檢討一次依照CPI然後再做排富的一個放寬"},{"start":4039.1,"end":4051.589,"text":"這個才是農民要的部長你認為呢我想非常謝謝委員的一番一席話那我非常認同那基本上從過往的這邊這些數據顯示是時候到了應該去做調整"},{"start":4055.271,"end":4078.888,"text":"那剛才在我的報告裡面我也非常正面的回應各位的意見那我要說明的一點就是說所有的法律案牽涉到經費的部分如果有充分的經過討論不管是各黨各派來討論的時候那得到的一個共識而且是經過行政院特別如果以農業部看的話是確認可行的話那那個法律案通過就絕對沒有問題"},{"start":4079.969,"end":4087.379,"text":"那我們最擔心的就是說完全沒有討論直接進到表決那樣子未來就可能牽扯到一些財政上的支出的問題"},{"start":4088.385,"end":4113.345,"text":"所以你認為時間到了所以你們行政院你農業部自己其實也有版本了對不對所以我覺得就像我們退休儲金一樣退休儲金我當時候也是認為時間到了那既然我們就要趕快讓老農 讓農民有感讓青農有感不要每次我們都這裡討錢然後都被掛在外面"},{"start":4116.687,"end":4135.101,"text":"所以我當時候就說我們退休儲金時間到了所以你看我們現在我們行政院的版本也已經都送到退休儲金已經送到立法院了現在就是因為那個復一期嘛12月30復一期過我已經排定了1月7號我們要來協商一樣"},{"start":4138.343,"end":4148.601,"text":"老農今天這個部分我們也希望行政院趕快通過院會然後送到立法院來你認為多久"},{"start":4150.219,"end":4173.686,"text":"我相信在一兩個禮拜之內應該就會送出來一兩個禮拜因為這個禮拜四這個禮拜四剛好那個放假嘛對那我不知道會不會加開那下禮拜我們希望說盡快我會跟行政院溝通盡快可不可以在下禮拜因為相關的程序都審完了只要經過院會通過就可以送到立法院來我們期待下禮拜看看會爭取排進去"},{"start":4173.746,"end":4200.538,"text":"我們拜託下個禮拜行政院會要排進那排進之後只要通過就可以送立法院來這樣我們老農才有感啊尤其我必須說的我們農業部我們替我們農民做活在這裡從蔡英文總統開始我們的三寶一金耶那是我們民進黨政府從一開始老農今天是誰是陳水扁總統"},{"start":4202.199,"end":4222.036,"text":"然後三寶一金是誰是蔡英文總統就是要讓我們老農有保障對於我們的農業保險對於我們的農民健康保險對於我們的職災跟我們的農民退休儲金這個部分都是讓我們的農民有保障因為都是看天吃飯"},{"start":4223.397,"end":4238.302,"text":"所以這個部分我們不能把這個對老農那麼好的一個方向然後似乎要去掛鍋子要做我們就做到好該檢討的就檢討不適宜的就把它做調整"},{"start":4239.102,"end":4266.618,"text":"這就是我們共同的方向我們期待下個禮拜行政院院會通過然後馬上送到立法院來我相信我們可以用最快的速度我們的召委就可以讓我們老農今天快速通過依照一個可以執行的方向然後農民又可以接受又可以讓我們老農有保障的這才是我們共同的期待謝謝好 謝謝委員支持 謝謝"},{"start":4269.141,"end":4285.115,"text":"好 謝謝省委 謝謝部長接下來請林月請委員來做選擇麻煩我們的農業部部長來請部長"},{"start":4291.798,"end":4318.761,"text":"委員好 部長早剛我要謝謝我們在野黨的陳委員幫我們釐清了違憲的真正原因是因為藍白根本不採行政院的意見要政院違法舉債5000億這才是問題對吧部長我想所有的法律案一定經過充分的討論而最後完成了一個法律的程序以後那這樣子的話所有的行政的系統才能夠執行"},{"start":4320.654,"end":4343.647,"text":"對 部長今天我主要在思考的是老人農民福利津貼這個議題時我認為保障農民生活是要讓農民有尊嚴工作有前景藉此我很希望我們的青年願意投入我想你也是一樣會期待青年投入那這不是福利加碼這是我們守住糧食安全的最基本也是最根本的基礎之一"},{"start":4344.287,"end":4370.753,"text":"那部長 糧食要安全就要有足夠的人才那有青年願意投入農業我的本業是社工所以長期關注青少年的職癌輔導這會期也在和勞動部一起改善青少年的職癌跟就業我知道有很多青年返鄉勿農的成功案例但我要跟第一線的社工說農業是可被推薦的人生的一個選項我們得先把現實輪廓釐清所以想來跟部長請益"},{"start":4371.873,"end":4394.603,"text":"首先農業部說青年農民經營準備金是給新進農民18歲就能申請18到24歲而且還特別規劃相關科系成績優異的畢業生可能有價高的準備金支持那就請問部長18到24歲實際申請的比例高不高"},{"start":4395.424,"end":4414.536,"text":"我基本上大概是如果說現在有資格的大概是900多人然後現在申請大概300多人大概三分之一吧 將近四成那你們有沒有統計跟背景分析依據申請的規則這個年紀要申請計劃的話就必須具備農業經營場域還有符合產業條件部長對於剛畢業的青少年來講這個實務上難不難我覺得"},{"start":4425.185,"end":4452.917,"text":"要有自己有地比較困難但是用租地的方式是一個可行的因為我們的從農準備金一年一個月給他是3萬可是部長這要有經營場域就是說你要有農業經營場域對 你可以租地但是擁有地是比較困難的是 可是我說對啊我說那如果對這18到24歲的這樣子的狀況裡面這些程度上難不難"},{"start":4454.54,"end":4477.417,"text":"我想第一個部分就是你要實際重新農業你必須要有技術那你如果沒有地你租地所以為什麼我們在從農準備金裡面一年給他36萬那給他36萬其中有一部分也是希望他付租金能夠實際去從農部長我覺得這政策是很好可是如同我跟勞動部要求的就是我認為一個要照顧到青少年的政策就要去檢視"},{"start":4478.497,"end":4496.313,"text":"這個年齡層的申請比例才能知道而且這個方案到底有沒有接觸到青少年如果接不到就要調整做出更符合這個年齡階段的設計甚至看怎麼去扶植他部長我會這樣子問就是因為我在做青少年輔導的時候看得非常清楚"},{"start":4497.193,"end":4514.178,"text":"18到24歲的職癌選擇非常關鍵而你們的方案的核心就是要讓新進農民站穩腳步這是非常好的事情所以我要接下來問的是不是有沒有進來是有沒有留下來不是只有進來有沒有留下來能不能穩定在農業職癌當中"},{"start":4516.098,"end":4543.345,"text":"所以以你們的數據 農業部106年就定下了10年培育3萬名的新農民的目標到113年已經累積培養了24659人我理解這裡面可能應該也包含準備經計劃的人數那我就請教部長直接回答幾個數字就是說這24659人裡面整體來看的話真正在農業站完腳步的比例有多少"},{"start":4544.458,"end":4555.183,"text":"我第一個先更新一下數字24000多現在已經是27000左右那流農的比例大概是九成90%流用比例就是經過我們這樣子的一個方案繼續留在農業經營的話有九成"},{"start":4560.365,"end":4587.062,"text":"不會是用什麼樣的方法讓他們今天有這麼高的數據我跟各位 我跟委員說明基本上除了這些流農的準備經驗以外我們很多基礎建設然後很多他從事那個從事農業的時候我們有一些陪伴的系統包括我們試驗改良廠的陪伴系統包括我們農民學院那陪伴系統能夠讓他快速的經驗成長"},{"start":4587.762,"end":4607.347,"text":"然後有些基礎設施像溫室設備的補助我們也補助了將近五成那最近也是拉到八成讓他們減輕這個經濟負擔所以很多作為讓他們願意留下來那部長進一步問一下剛你的兩萬七千多人裡面全職務農的比例有多少和兼職的又有多少這個"},{"start":4611.361,"end":4636.858,"text":"這個我想我們可能還要再細部的去再提供給您 再麻煩農業部再給我們資料部長 農業部自己做統計農業所得平均每戶不到30萬元我想請教的更直接一點30歲以下的青農的收入 部內有沒有更細緻的收入統計因為他們要成家立業 未來還要養小孩那部長你掌握數據 你覺得這樣夠不夠就是他們有多少 然後你覺得這樣子夠不夠"},{"start":4637.978,"end":4663.966,"text":"我想委員你剛才問的那個家戶所得的部分特別是青農的部分這個部分我現在手中沒資料但是我們基本上在歷次的統計我們有分大專業農還有一些一般的農家的部分那大專業農我如果沒有記錯的話他的年所得已經超過200萬以上專業農戶的話更高但是您要的18到24歲這個族群那可不可以容我後續如果了解以後再提供給委員"},{"start":4665.126,"end":4690.574,"text":"部長再麻煩因為如果好的政策我真的覺得要讓我們的社福領域的社工在輔導的時候更知道農業也是一種選項讓他們找到他們想要追求的目標再來根據報導部長也說過退儲金的覆蓋率比較低的是青年的一個農民你們掌握的狀況是青年農民面臨收入不穩農業設施跟機具的投入要貸款"},{"start":4691.554,"end":4718.651,"text":"20多歲到35歲之間只有24%我想請部長解讀一下媒體引述這句話不知道到底是什麼意思青年農民不在乎最後是否能多領一點他比較在乎的是是否能掃腳一點這句話的意思是什麼這是不是正反應青農的困境青農不是不想存退休而是現在根本就是快撐不住這樣的理解正確嗎"},{"start":4720.097,"end":4737.807,"text":"這句話應該是我講的基本上我們也實際問個跟青年座談的部分因為退休除菌要到65歲領以青年來講可能30年以後的事情那30年以後能領多少他們在乎的會是現在是不是能夠"},{"start":4738.928,"end":4754.62,"text":"依他們現在的所得能夠繼續生存下去然後他們現在目前因為我剛才說的他們的貸款因為他們從事農業需要一些貸款那這個貸款的金額我如果沒有記錯的話可能大概是3000多塊左右一個月"},{"start":4755.1,"end":4775.549,"text":"一個月3000多塊那有的是借的少2000多塊怎樣所以他們要付貸款然後相對的他們吃住不要講了以後如果說再付這樣子的一個退休儲金的話因為他們要繳都希望繳到滿繳到10%繳1%沒意義所以他們覺得說那是不是可以少繳一點政府多出一點所以我們才會設計這個4比6的制度"},{"start":4778.13,"end":4798.175,"text":"那部長從你們數據上來看2018到2025的那個青農的人口一路攀升這一路攀升的青年人口裡面大概幾歲是投入的高峰因為我覺得要有數據才能掌握到未來你的政策裡面能夠做什麼回應部長你認為為什麼會集中到這個年齡段也就是哪一個年齡段是比較"},{"start":4798.835,"end":4827.75,"text":"我如果没有记错了我们讲实际从农走大概48.5万那45岁以下大概11万左右45岁到55岁也大概10万多大概这几个都是比较高峰的都是比较高峰的然后55岁以上都是已经很成熟有经验的农民嘛所以我们的重点就是放在45岁以下但是我们有一个政策我们发现说过完我们支持的青农他就超过45岁了"},{"start":4828.73,"end":4839.507,"text":"所以我们现在把我们的所有的政策往上延伸到纵容就是到55岁我们希望说到55岁以下的这个东西都是受到我们能够政策可以鼓励跟支持的"},{"start":4839.912,"end":4860.185,"text":"那想問一下你們114年後還會持續做個案輔導嗎包含技術 通路 行銷 財務那我就想問說你們有沒有做過後續追蹤然後離開的人原因是什麼然後甚至最常見的卡關的因素是什麼因為要知道問題我們以後才能夠去做一些突破"},{"start":4861.035,"end":4875.155,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問我覺得農民的一個再教育的系統我們有一個農民學院從初級班到中級班到高級班然後特別是現在目前我們發現農業缺乏的是一個CEO"},{"start":4877.518,"end":4893.399,"text":"就是他有經驗了以後他想要擴大經營的時候他的管理能力不足所以我們在農業的這種高級班的部分我們就投入更多的跨領域的資源來協助他 來陪伴他這個部分我想我們農業部門做的一定遠比其他部門還多"},{"start":4894.78,"end":4923.014,"text":"部長再麻煩你前面的資料到時候再提供給我可是我想今天聽你說明我理解台灣農業挑戰非常的多也有很多發展的好的機會那最後我想用一個比較具體的情境請你回答如果你今天跟我一樣是在做青少年職癌輔導的一個社工或是一個長輩你要去跟高中生或剛大學畢業的年輕人說農業是值得當你的職癌選擇的時候你會講哪三個理由請部長盡量以我們青少年聽得懂的話來說"},{"start":4924.475,"end":4942.31,"text":"我想我如果鼓勵我們的青少年從農的部分我覺得要去強化他的一個使命我覺得最重要的啦那相對的他進來的時候他是有很好的被照顧到所以他未來的農民的福利制度"},{"start":4942.87,"end":4958.247,"text":"因為我想任何一個人進到職場他會對於他的整個的後續的生涯規劃的一個福利制度我會強調我們三保一新的福利制度是讓農民是有尊嚴的一個產業第二個部分我會讓他們了解說農業的經營不是單打獨鬥農業的經營是一個"},{"start":4962.031,"end":4985.111,"text":"一個集團合作的一個趨勢我不會讓你一個人獨自奮鬥我們有很好的相關的支持系統讓你繼續從事這個農業在從事等於說從農的最後一陸由我們來陪伴用這種方式來鼓勵他們好 謝謝部長也謝謝部長剛剛的回應未來我去跟青少年福福團體跟社工分享的時候也會把你剛才講的帶上"},{"start":4987.052,"end":5014.685,"text":"可以让更多孩子们认识这样的一个行业投入这个行业不过我也要提醒的是像国防部常常会进到学校也会到社福机构做揽柴说明那我也知道农业部有在做那我建议部长是不是也可以积极跟学校跟社福团体合作会 我们绝对会我们还有开公费专班好 谢谢部长 谢谢好 谢谢不好意思 今天是联席很多很多出席农业时间上就麻烦大家来 接下来请张家俊委员"},{"start":5024.147,"end":5026.649,"text":"主席我想請陳部長部長早那我想呢老農今天不是今天才今天才提出來的問題那我們也希望說在今天能夠充分的討論解決這個長期以來的心頭之痛那在去年3月本席就已經"},{"start":5046.784,"end":5068.463,"text":"提出修法是本屆第一位提出調高老農津貼金額至一萬兩千元的立法委員那現在呢跨黨派的委員包括民進黨包括民眾黨跟國民黨都已經逐漸形成一個共識那現在只剩下一個問題農業部目前的願不願意跟上"},{"start":5069.724,"end":5094.494,"text":"我第一個部分我剛才在報告已經講得很清楚的不管是額度或是排付條款的放寬我們都支持委員的方向那至於說額度要達到多高那可能經過討論以後然後看看我們的經費的一個財政的一個情況那原則上我們希望提高但是也不可能提的太高因為提的太高那其實太高是多少"},{"start":5096.094,"end":5120.665,"text":"你心裡面的太高是多少 我告訴你一萬二一萬五我覺得都太高了啦希望部長可以如您所說支持完善老農津貼的權益不要阻擋也不要跟農民作對那我想要請教您一個很簡單的問題你剛才說一萬二或一萬五太高了我想要知道說以現在的物價成本生活成本來看"},{"start":5121.585,"end":5143.479,"text":"您覺得每個月8,110元足夠維持老農的最基本的生活開銷嗎沒有 我跟委員報告因為從事農業並沒有退休制度他在65歲甚至於我們也發現你現在是在鼓勵大家不要從事農業嗎不是 不是我現在是跟你講說現在從事農業的他沒有一個說像一般勞工65歲就退休所以65歲以上"},{"start":5147.501,"end":5160.732,"text":"你的意思是說他可以做到老做到死就是他能做就盡量還是上田去做是這個意思嗎我們今天不要自上談兵我覺得你錯誤的解讀 我跟委員報告你錯誤的解讀喔你的心態這樣一講我就知道了那我現在在這裡算給你聽喔8100元"},{"start":5169.864,"end":5198.212,"text":"我不曉得你有沒有注意家中的生活開銷你覺得一個月的水電要不要1000塊假設1000塊好了我們就先抽掉一張然後農村現在大部分是用瓦斯用瓦斯一個月他要燒水煮飯洗澡全部都要用瓦斯20斤一桶的大概是700多那再抽一張你那個是假鈔是不是假鈔啦"},{"start":5200.874,"end":5224.099,"text":"那假操都可以隨便傻玩具操玩具操然後呢手機網路要不要錢他雖然也許不會上網但他一定要繳手機錢嘛然後再加個第四台差不多網路最便宜要400手機要400吧第四台再五六百差不多還要再1000塊"},{"start":5225.734,"end":5231.992,"text":"就水電 瓦斯 網路 地絲材這些雜誌就已經扣掉差不多兩千七三千了"},{"start":5233.072,"end":5255.146,"text":"所以抽掉三張那接下來你知道農民平常長期彎腰風吹日曬雨淋搬種是他的常態所以慢性病職業傷害是他的生活常態不是例外所以掛號費藥費護具一個月省省的話"},{"start":5256.772,"end":5263.116,"text":"我們有健保 我們有農營職業災害保險都可以去支應他們的一些部分他也是要掛號費吧 1000塊再來交通費 機車 油費然後機車換車油 維修然後強制險等等包括搭乘大眾運輸工具你覺得再抽掉1000塊合理嗎如果他要加油啊 好不好我們就抽1000塊"},{"start":5283.63,"end":5306.929,"text":"那這樣子已經算非常節省了喔本席都還沒有算上他的紅白帖算上他的勞污修善算上他的電器淘汰或者有康復的費用等等的生活雜資這樣存多少存三千一百塊那三千一百元你一個月換算下去假設用三十天下去算"},{"start":5308.547,"end":5331.818,"text":"一天吃飯真是多少平均每餐一天假設吃三餐好了平均每餐只剩下不到34塊不到35元那我不曉得部長你今天吃早餐吃什麼你有吃早餐我沒有吃你沒有吃好吧那你先省起來那我想要請問部長那你知道現在一顆饅頭一顆饅頭要多少錢嗎"},{"start":5336.038,"end":5338.841,"text":"一個饅頭看什麼樣的饅頭是全麥饅頭還是一般白饅頭大概15塊差不多15塊那所以假設34塊5買了一顆饅頭15塊剩下就是要買菜脯"},{"start":5354.375,"end":5380.816,"text":"要減農賠饅頭你知道嗎你知道這就是我們現在老農的生活水平我很難過的告訴你說我們現在每天得以溫飽就是這些老農民每天努力生產給我們得以溫飽能夠吃的好吃的營養結果這些提供我們食物的老農民反而不得溫飽"},{"start":5384.269,"end":5398.615,"text":"情何以堪啊情何以堪 我真的學得非常的難過每天能夠提供我們豐衣足食這些好的食物來源的老年農民反而不得溫飽"},{"start":5400.27,"end":5425.376,"text":"你覺得這合理嗎我跟委員報告你可以接受嗎相對的所有的農民的福利制度就是在照顧最重要是照顧我們年紀長老的農民但是從數據來看65歲以上還在持續從事農業的人口有將近30萬人所以你現在在意思說他不需要提高是嗎"},{"start":5425.956,"end":5446.673,"text":"我有說他要適度的提高我一直強調你現在一直在說明的意思是說老農過著非常好的生活我沒有說我沒有這樣說我沒有這樣說是你說的你把老農當作一個悲情的工具在操作是不是你把老農當作一個非常悲情的工具在操作我再問你一個問題你知道假設"},{"start":5449.375,"end":5454.756,"text":"老龍絕對沒有要操作老龍絕對不是一個悲劇的操作人我沒有要操作我只是覺得他們應有的權益你應該要支持你不應該拿任何的 excuse來告訴大家說好像他過得非常好的生活一個月發十萬塊那是不是很好"},{"start":5468.769,"end":5480.12,"text":"我現在是在跟你說average我現在不是在跟你講情緒性的事情你不要上頭啦你不要情緒上頭好不好你支持我需要你支持好講的這句話我接受這句話我接受我再問你一個問題我就問你一個問題嘛"},{"start":5484.404,"end":5502.764,"text":"你現在是怎樣 你現在是情緒上頭 你要一個月發十萬我想我們也很高興啊川普也說他一個月 他也要每個國民發十萬啊所以我現在就要跟你講金額我問你 現在每個月的平均支出是多少 你知道嗎"},{"start":5504.858,"end":5521.952,"text":"你講什麼平均支出是什麼就是每個人平均支出啊 不同的地區都不一樣那以雲林縣為例 主計處統計假設是去年好了 前年2023年平均支出是多少你知道嗎 我不知道"},{"start":5525.599,"end":5533.609,"text":"2356元然後2011年我相信你更不會知道了2011年的average是多少13696元你知道從2011年到2023年"},{"start":5540.615,"end":5555.153,"text":"增加了幾倍嗎1.48倍1.48倍我告訴你你不能把老農看作什麼政治操弄的工具那是你心中所想我告訴你你每次都是用老農你都把老農當作一個政治操作的工具"},{"start":5559.037,"end":5564.838,"text":"你這樣子是汙衊 你這樣子是汙衊我告訴你 你在現場隨便汙衊這是對嗎老農是一個有尊嚴的 我也希望幫他們爭取尊嚴啊但是你講的 你講的是有尊嚴嗎你講的是有尊嚴 我現在拿數據問你嘛我現在拿數據問你 你認為跟2011年相比"},{"start":5582.307,"end":5597.285,"text":"現在的物價是不是有比較高我們物價每年的CPI都有在統計是 那所以是不是比較高對啊 有高啊所以我們過去老農基金在4年CPI調整一次4年你覺得 來得及嗎但是我們覺得那個基數太低所以我也同意說 同意"},{"start":5598.466,"end":5603.33,"text":"低數太低 基數過低每一次就只調整一點點根本追不上快速上升的物價跟生活成本嘛我覺得你的心態真的讓我很質疑說怎麼會你是農業反對部部長吧怎麼會要照顧農民的我們提案我們提案你就覺得說我們在操縱什麼悲情"},{"start":5620.905,"end":5626.768,"text":"我說你剛才的發言不是提案我們的提案是針對現在的物價指數來說我覺得你這樣子污蔑我是非常的不應該你站在這個質詢台上你沒有為老農著想我已經覺得你不應該了所以我現在問你所以你覺得一萬二是太高嗎"},{"start":5645.999,"end":5669.732,"text":"我說這個東西要看財政負擔財政負擔的部分那排富呢排富他明明沒有多賺錢他也明明沒有多房子他就是我告訴你並不是所有的老農都是靠8110塊的生活我先問你嘛我先問你支不支持排富嘛你支不支持排富我也支持適當的排富啊我都支持啊那所以你支持的內容是怎麼樣你覺得說"},{"start":5672.193,"end":5690.151,"text":"牌付是多少才合理呢我支持第一個我支持額度適度的提高第二個牌付我支持所得適當的提高要根據CPI去提高過去都沒有第三個自住房財產的部分我也覺得應該根據土地公告限值去提高"},{"start":5691.152,"end":5711.586,"text":"很單純我都支持好非常好我想今天有非常多的版本排富的版本其實大家都大同小異但是大家都是支持排富那我也很高興聽到部長說你願意支持排富因為其實剛才我看林月琴委員他在講他也在呼籲說年輕人你要呼籲年輕人從事農業你如果沒有告訴他說這個農業是有可能讓他有一個好的遠景的怎麼會有人願意呢"},{"start":5721.032,"end":5723.975,"text":"農作的意願就會降低啊所以我在這裡呼籲部長您身為掌管農業機關最高的首長應該要理解老農制度的調整跟是攸關整個農業人力世代交替跟產業永續的必要修法那我也在這裡提醒部長"},{"start":5742.035,"end":5765.16,"text":"農為國本這個基本價值是跨黨派委員都支持的基本社會照顧農民一生看天吃飯擔起台灣的糧食安全這就是本次修法最核心也最單純的目標請你在這裡要擺正你的想法 謝謝我的想法非常正我還是支持所有的委員的一個提案好 謝謝"},{"start":5771.749,"end":5782.018,"text":"這個要為農民爭取提高行政權益我想農業部陳部長也一直很積極然後各位委員也都很積極對啦 大家都很積極 所以就理性討論好 謝謝接下來請張志倫委員來做選擇"},{"start":5789.079,"end":5815.937,"text":"那個農業部有很多出席的官員都沒有寫在裡面等一下等一下補充一下給你們補充介紹不然你來這邊就坐的有點渺茫來謝謝好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員好有請農業部這個陳部長以及勞動部以及那個原住民組委員會洪副處長洪副處長"},{"start":5818.368,"end":5834.344,"text":"來 委員好好 謝謝部長那首先今天這個是我們這個未還跟內政委員會等等的聯席所以今天本席特別到現場針對老農的相關的津貼就由部長來就請教那我想要先請這個"},{"start":5835.945,"end":5853.838,"text":"原住民組委員會的代表就是你們先可不可以講一下說根據這次的修法針對50那個原住民從55歲起請領津貼其實你們今天在報告裡面寫到特別有寫到因為原住民的平均壽命比全體國民大概少了7.54"},{"start":5856.24,"end":5874.032,"text":"稅這是一個殘酷的科學的現實所以代表原住民原住民的農民在身體上能領取津貼的時間比一般農民少了7年之多這是你們今天在報告裡面明確去寫的可是你們今天的報告被這個農業部打臉他說可是雖然你們講的很對啊可是"},{"start":5876.164,"end":5901.2,"text":"這個農業部的報告裡面寫說老農今天屬於職業屬性不應該針對特定族群有特別規範那也違反你們今天裡面報告裡面寫的這個原住民基本法的部分應該對原住民族的這個社會福利事項應該要積極的辦理補助所以這邊是不是先請這個原住民委員會的處長你要堅定你的想法是不是可以請你表達幾句"},{"start":5903.16,"end":5926.006,"text":"是 謝謝委員那根據我們就是委託那個國家衛生研究院的那個研究最近一切的113年的報告的確就是原住民的那個平均餘命的部分跟非原住民的朋友們大概是相差7.54歲那這個部分的話就在因為"},{"start":5927.686,"end":5944.715,"text":"不要緊張不要緊張幫忙原住民朋友講出來就本位的立場來看就是因為這個有關於老農的那個政策的一個規劃雖然是原住民老農也是很重要啊對雖然是農業部在規劃但是這是一種集體權的一種保障"},{"start":5951.579,"end":5967.185,"text":"那我的意思也就是說如果說假設對於那個老農經貼的那個那個年紀年齡對年齡的如果是放在65歲的話那也就表示說其實大部分的針對這個"},{"start":5968.345,"end":5997.545,"text":"原住民對 老農的今天的政策規劃原住民農民是領不到的嗎對 原住民的農民是沒有辦法領到的好 謝謝再基於就是我們的委託研究的部分我們還是認為說可以支持好 謝謝洪處長好 那洪部長謝謝 那我們請部長部長你有沒有聽到這個原住民族委員會的心聲是不是請你你是不是你這個報告裡面就是用一句話就寫說就把這個把他們的這個"},{"start":5998.845,"end":6014.077,"text":"修法把他給整個給這個不同意啊我跟委員報告是不是你們可以想個比較好的方式我先跟委員提供一個數據剛才原民會這邊提到是一個全體原住民的年齡嘛平均的年齡嘛"},{"start":6014.838,"end":6034.384,"text":"那我們是針對有清零老農津貼的這些原住民他的平均餘命是82.7比全國的零老農津貼的還高所以他從事農業的這一群你說的是什麼數字從事農業的這一群原住民退休的平均餘命是82.7歲"},{"start":6036.365,"end":6046.776,"text":"比全國的這些人齡80.8歲還高所以我們老農津貼關心的是從事農業的這一群原住民他的年齡"},{"start":6047.95,"end":6073.937,"text":"不會比較低 不會比全國的低反而比全國的還高所以我們是從這個角度去建議說還是維持65歲那我不是說原委會的資料是錯的他是用全部的原住民不管你是從事任何行業的所以這兩個基準不一樣可是以農業部來講我們處理的是老農津貼所以我們會看零老農津貼的餘命是多少是82.7歲 比一般的還高"},{"start":6074.636,"end":6103.542,"text":"可是我要跟部長講你這樣你這個數字是剛剛你提出來的那我覺得你這樣提出來的話如果照你的數字來講是正確那當然我覺得大家是可以討論不過你在裡面就是直接就是裡面就是強調說就是不能因為不同族群而有特別規範你直接這句話去回覆我認為是不太恰當的就像你剛才解釋如果是真的數字的話其實我相信不曉得原住民族委員會的代表能不能認同你認同嗎"},{"start":6105.851,"end":6130.678,"text":"有沒有再解釋一下是 我們是認為說就是因為我相信剛剛部長的那個數據應該是是依照他們去調查的數據那就我們這邊的立場我們是認為說就像剛剛我所講的這個部分是一個集體政策的一個規劃所以我認為說既然我們在我們通過"},{"start":6132.779,"end":6152.75,"text":"委託國家衛生研究院的那個報告是這樣出來的話我們還是認為就是你整個政策居然是要造福所有的那個那個這個族群的話應該就要讓他有接受到這個政府政策的那個規劃的可能性那我們自己也也有稍微去也是依據農業部這邊的資料那其實"},{"start":6156.932,"end":6184.794,"text":"原住民55歲以上未滿65歲的頭保的農保人數在7500多人那從110年的時候是8000多人那到111年的時候是7500多人所以其實人數都是在大概是呈現500到600之間的那個削減所以我認為說如果說假設要照顧這個呃農民的老年的生活的話我認為"},{"start":6187.164,"end":6204.396,"text":"應該還是能夠我們還是建議可以張照55歲比照國民年金給付的方式去去做那個農民的給付但是這個部分的話我也跟委員報告我們很希望就是說可以降低原住民勤領津貼的那個年紀不過我們也"},{"start":6208.686,"end":6229.14,"text":"也會尊重這次農業部對整個農民生活的一個政策的規劃好謝謝副處長有請部長那就是說這件事情就是說因為剛剛我們副處長有特別講其實原住民依照勞基法他的這個原住民給付的年齡也是調整"},{"start":6229.36,"end":6240.539,"text":"到55歲所以這未來再好好檢討一下多跟其他部會大家多溝通聽聽其他部會的聲音那另外一個其他我要跟你請教就是今天最大家最討論最多的這個"},{"start":6242.748,"end":6269.649,"text":"導入今天的戰刑條例這次的修法是第二條 第四條跟第七條重點在第四條就是有關於年金給付的金額到底是多少就本席所了解你們8月7號已經將戰刑條例的修正案送給行政院現在已經過了四個多月為什麼行政院的版本到底在哪裡我們有懷疑這像是不是牛布化的行政效率"},{"start":6270.149,"end":6288.722,"text":"既然你想要調整那為什麼現在政府行政院為什麼都沒有提出版本那這樣到底有沒有我們感受到好像照顧農民的那個心不是是不是就是口號那我想要請教說現在的草案的問題到底是卡在哪裡那你們是不是可以簡單來跟大家講一下"},{"start":6290.784,"end":6305.473,"text":"我跟委員報告就是從部的角度來講我們可以針對農業的相關的這些法律案或是相關的政策我們可以做一個很好的規劃送到行政院的時候那基本上行政院考慮的不只是這個法"},{"start":6306.454,"end":6335.339,"text":"他會考慮到跟這個法有關的其他的社福基金的一個橫平性跟一致性所以在這個過程中也考慮到我們的物價指數也逐漸的提高了也考慮到排富的這些土地公告協定來變動所以我們也是在行政院不是等待審查是在討論非常多次的過程中不斷的去精進我們的版本所以我們這一次剛才報告的過程中其實也大致上符合委員的版本"},{"start":6335.999,"end":6360.079,"text":"就是額度是朝提高的方向我們有適當的排付這個東西都已經符合委員的期待只是那個額度到底要多少這個就是到時候我們再來看怎麼樣的去討論找到一個平衡點我先有看到你們農業部有一個有針對各委員提高的版本你們有做一個統爭表那請問一下部長你有沒有哪一個版本你是看起來覺得你比較人認同的"},{"start":6360.359,"end":6384.829,"text":"我剛才說的這個還是要去尊重委員的版本那我只針對這個現在這裡面的部分那我剛才說的我把這裡面的經費你的意見 你本身的意見咧我的經驗就是要看我們的財政的負擔我們要看財政的負擔那現在有很多版哪一個金額是你比較認同我們的金額會落在這裡面就是說你8000到12000都考慮只是說都考慮"},{"start":6385.836,"end":6389.999,"text":"我們都有考慮都有試算那我們最後的建議板會落在這個之間落在這之間"},{"start":6394.101,"end":6420.363,"text":"對因為很抱歉因為行政院並沒有核定我沒有辦法所以意思就是說這四版那我再講一下今天所以這四個版本你認為都不會未來只要發布三讀通過都可以實行就對了你的意思是這樣子嗎對我剛才一個強調就是說因為我們行政院在設計經費的時候一定考慮到我們的財政的一個負擔所以在這個財政的負擔我才會有一個分析表就是從那個"},{"start":6421.264,"end":6447.443,"text":"九千塊一直到一萬五的財政部長所以政府都是有能力負擔的不管是九千塊到一萬一萬二你們都有討論過我們提出來的是我們覺得你剛剛是說部長不是說你的版本所有版本都能接受落在這個之間包含嗎包含一萬二到八千我說落在這個之間不代表就是這個之間都可以這兩個不同的意思喔那你"},{"start":6448.413,"end":6476.153,"text":"你不回答到底你的想法是什麼你回答一個很廣泛的就是落在這個之間這個聽不太懂啦那最後就要跟這個部長拜託為什麼有這麼多不同的版本剛剛張家俊委員也說有一萬二的版本其實就是考慮到老農他的生活的等等相關的負擔而且以及我們大家最常講的就是這個有關於這個他們的一般的這個"},{"start":6479.623,"end":6494.696,"text":"這個生活的基本生活費等等的都是他們在參考的一個重點所以還是要拜託部長在這邊的時候盡量可以針對接近他們的基本生活費就像剛剛張家俊委員講的不然他們生活其實是相對來講比較辛苦在這拜託部長幫忙 謝謝好 謝謝張委員"},{"start":6499.261,"end":6526.996,"text":"那委會在這邊公告我們到呂毅霖委員宣達結束之後我們休息十分鐘那這邊再補充介紹一下我們列席的官員榮良署姚思源署長還有約署王茂成署長還有榮春花展及水土保持署蘇茂祥副署長謝謝還有榮田水利署朱孝恩主任秘書謝謝接下來請鄭前委員來做宣達"},{"start":6536.076,"end":6537.839,"text":"謝主席 我想請一下農業部陳俊濟陳部長蔣維好"},{"start":6544.051,"end":6571.216,"text":"部長好也謝謝主席今天特別安排老農津貼暫停條例的一個相關修法的一個質詢我想說因為今天我們排審老農津貼條例的修正案很多委員都非常的關心因為光是版本就高達39個就表示這個在委員當中其實是一個非常關心的部分我們相信農業部應該也關心這事情所以4個多月前就已經提到行政院會去"},{"start":6572.336,"end":6589.779,"text":"我想針對這個部分我想特別針對排富的部分跟農業部這邊做一個討論老農今天實施到今天排富的門檻是不是過低一直都有一些爭議很多農民因為今年土地公告限制和房價上漲即使生活很勤儉"},{"start":6590.62,"end":6602.805,"text":"那也都超過門檻而是失去資格那被認為有一些不公平跟不符合現實那我想請教部長我想你一定知道說我們目前整個排富的一個門檻是怎麼樣子對不對"},{"start":6604.449,"end":6626.226,"text":"對 我了解大概分兩個部分一個是所得的部分 一個是財產的部分另外一個是沒有有自住房 就是有自住的這個部分是 那最簡單來講的時候我就說我們的排富門檻就是你剛剛所得的部分跟那個資產的部分土地跟房屋的價值合計多少元以下就會被排除掉500萬500萬嘛 那有幾年沒有調整從102年到現在都沒調整"},{"start":6631.249,"end":6660.083,"text":"102年到現在都沒有調整已經14年了嘛那14年都沒有調整的時候我想說我稍微查了一下就是土地這邊我不講啦我光是全國的一個住宅的一個狀態這個14年來的時候大概全國的平均漲幅大概超過四成五左右大概是我看內政部的一個住宅統計資料那因為我們這個排富的狀態是土地連住宅一起併入進去所以我比較好奇就是說"},{"start":6662.285,"end":6673.677,"text":"過去這14年來 農業部有沒有統計過有多少農民因為我們的土地房屋價格上漲而失去清令 老農津貼的數字有多少"},{"start":6675.368,"end":6690.206,"text":"對不起我現在一時沒辦法回1萬4千人現在是排除的排除嘛對不對那排除當中就是說過去這四年當中的時候因為土地跟"},{"start":6691.227,"end":6717.996,"text":"房屋價值的一個上漲然後他們被排除被排除在那個新寧老農今天之外有一萬四千人嘛對不對應該這麼講我們現在所有的排富的話是排掉一萬四千人但是這個排的包括裡面有不同的原因我理解所以我問的是針對土地跟房屋價值上漲超過五百萬之後被排除的有多少量這個可能後續要做切割到1.2萬"},{"start":6719.794,"end":6735.024,"text":"1.2萬人那我想說這個都是一個必須要被特別關注到的因為14年沒有去調整可是我們發現有1萬2千人因為這個原因而被排除在這個老人今天的範圍當中所以我想說"},{"start":6735.985,"end":6759.924,"text":"针对这排富条件的时候我们肯定是要特别去关注而且其实除了这一万两千人之外我们在农业区当中我们还碰到一个现象很多农民为了要争取到老农津贴他们就提早把房产过户给小孩然后这样的情况又衍生很多后续的一个家庭问题就是部长知不知道这个状态"},{"start":6760.953,"end":6783.47,"text":"我了解了解嘛所以說有很多老農他們還沒有離開農業還沒有離農他們就已經先被迫離房所以我覺得這個其實有一點違背我們訂定這個暫行條例的初衷所以針對這個排富的狀態的時候目前大概有兩種的取向一個是提高"},{"start":6784.11,"end":6803.255,"text":"土地加房屋的一個總額對不對 一個是這樣的狀態另外一個邏輯是排除到唯一自住房屋的這個部分那我不知道部長覺得怎麼樣的解決方案比較適合目前台灣的一個環境然後也是農業部有接下來會繼續去推的部分"},{"start":6804.065,"end":6825.22,"text":"我第一個跟委員報告就是有些農民他把財產移轉給他的子女我覺得不見得百分之百都是為了領老農經理解當然是這樣子不是有一些這樣子的一個案例嗎第二個我個人一直認為也包括農業部的立場也一直認為其實我們農民在年輕的時候辛辛苦苦的耕種"},{"start":6826.281,"end":6844.052,"text":"然後得到一些收入收入好不容易買一個房子那那個房子本身他也不會輕易去賣他啦所以當他的房子因為土地公告限制一直拉高的時候那造成他可能達到某一個門檻就被排掉了我認為是不合理的啦"},{"start":6844.852,"end":6870.18,"text":"所以这是一万两千人嘛我们数字出来有一万两千人所以我们会针对这个土地公告限值的部分去做一些处理那所得的部分过去虽然说我们的额度是根据四年CPI调一次但是所得都没有动都没有根据CPI所以我们也希望说这一次一并把过去十几年来没调的一次到位根据这个CPI累计的CPI去做一个调整"},{"start":6870.993,"end":6897.656,"text":"所以其實我們很多國民黨籍的委員都主張一萬二調整到一萬二到一萬五之間那目前就是農業部這邊有沒有覺得一個具體的一個數字大概是多少我剛才說的我在報告裡面有提到就是每增加一千塊大概就要六十多億那我們在考慮這個額度的時候一定要考慮到我們的那個經費是否可負擔得了第二個考慮到"},{"start":6899.057,"end":6915.397,"text":"雖然說我是農業部的但是在整個政策上我也必須考慮到所有的八大社福基金的橫平性我覺得這是一定要去搞以行政團隊來講是議題的一定要討論所以我是希望說它適度的提高但不能拉得太高因為拉得太高的話會造成社會的對立"},{"start":6916.038,"end":6933.423,"text":"多少叫太高農業部覺得多少叫太高我認為現在委員版本的從以現在版本我們不講說還沒進來的版本以這邊的版本最高是一萬二嘛最低是不調嘛那我們的一個金額是位在這個之間"},{"start":6934.491,"end":6956.947,"text":"位在這個之間所以如果說後續有別的委員提出了表達1萬5的版本的時候那中間的時候可能會在1萬2變這樣一個邏輯嗎我不希望這是用喊價的部分我們一定會充分的說明其實我剛才說的每剩下1萬塊是他的財政負擔然後一個非常重要的剛才我跟張家健委員他沒有去注意去聽我講的我們的"},{"start":6959.308,"end":6976.449,"text":"農民不是65歲是強制退休我們還會有工作根據我們現在的資訊大概有30萬還在工作所以老農今天不是他唯一的生物理據所以這個部分我們也會考慮到這個部分然後我們也會考慮到國保也會考慮到農保 勞保有沒有這個部分"},{"start":6977.21,"end":6998.038,"text":"理解我在想說其實政府對於農民的一個支持肯定是需要的所以我特別提到就是多少的金額這個部分的時候因為新竹市坦白說農民對這部分其實不一定有非常大的一個強烈的要求可是很多農業縣的一個委員確實有這樣的一個主張那我針對這個"},{"start":7000.439,"end":7022.117,"text":"公平正義的排富這個部分特別的關心所以我們希望在這部分能夠做一個非常清楚的一個規定像你們剛剛提到一個具體一萬兩千這個數字在過去十幾年當中因為土地跟房屋的一個爭執而被排除在外就是很需要我們去解決的一個問題好不好我想我們後續提出來的排富"},{"start":7023.709,"end":7046.219,"text":"我蠻確信應該可以符合委員的期待OK 好那我想說接下來我想問一個狀態就是就是昨天的時候我就是有一個獨家新聞出來表示說農業部會提供續保就是農業商業保險的加額補助5%保備5%這個部分請問這個政策已經確定了嗎這應該是確定其實"},{"start":7052.462,"end":7074.198,"text":"我上任以來我覺得農業保險過去28個品項44個保單我們過去有點說有人願意要我們開我們就開可是那個保單可能只有十幾個二十幾個甚至三十幾個人在保而已所以我希望是重視保單的品質這第一個第二個就是我希望保險是變成農民的一個習慣因為"},{"start":7076.929,"end":7092.252,"text":"極端天候天然災害很難預測那不是說我今年遇到很多災害明年就保險那今年沒有遇到災害明年就不保險所以我們針對持續加保的人我們給他一些誘因讓他持續的來加保"},{"start":7092.332,"end":7107.06,"text":"理解 部長基本上我支持這樣的一個狀態用那個農業商業保險的部分去cover很多我們原本很多的一個政策補助的狀態那我現在想特別去了解的狀態因為目前的時候114年我們相關的一個預算是編列是11.3億那麼115年的預算是估到11.8億那我想說這個部分"},{"start":7118.547,"end":7143.81,"text":"部分針對這個農業保險計畫這個預算當中的時候有把這個5%的這個大概1500萬要增加1500萬所以這個在經費上是可以處理的只增加1500萬是不是對不過講到這個我還是拜託委員就是總預算要趕快審我們後面很多農民總預算審的部分的時候我想行政院要尊重立法院修法過之後的狀態修成一個"},{"start":7144.491,"end":7172.281,"text":"更符合立法院立法通過之後的版本再送進來我想這沒有問題喔只要是行政院有尊重立法院的時候我想說我們立法院一定會秉持我們的一個職責去做最好的一個預算的一個審查我想行政院要尊重立法院這是整個憲政體制當中很重要的一個原則那行政院不可能要當行政院不可能要當皇帝想要專制想要獨裁然後又要當"},{"start":7172.881,"end":7198.543,"text":"要把立法院當成橡皮圖章 我覺得這是不可能的事情好不好謝謝部長好 謝謝曾委員 謝謝部長委員會重新公告待陳勤務委員尋討結束之後 我們再休息10分鐘接下來請呂毅林委員謝謝主席 請陳部長來 請部長"},{"start":7205.134,"end":7226.047,"text":"部長 老農今天行之有年尤其是高齡的農民退休之後的基本生活就是我們要來做對他們做了一些保障所以跟農民的退休儲金這個制度我們雙雙都希望完善的農民的福利最重要的這個措施但是隨著物價的攀升還有現行的農民的"},{"start":7227.087,"end":7251.348,"text":"這個津貼的給付這個相關的金額的規定我們今天才會特別來排審這個老農津貼希望能夠符合他們生活上的需要那但是現在社會上很質疑的就是因為物價的高漲而我們的暫行條例這邊一直都沒有調漲所以希望我們能夠尊重我們的農民對他們做最好的照料那尤其是這個老農津貼在2012年的7000元"},{"start":7254.11,"end":7281.846,"text":"一直到現在的8,110元我們是有調整但是不符合現在的這個通貨膨脹的嚴重跟物價上漲的情形所以我們希望能夠符合他們生活需要的一個重要非常沉重的一個負擔所以今天也請教部長在這個8,110元這個一次要拉高到現在很多委員的版本那本席的提案是1萬元那有可能在至少1萬元以上嗎"},{"start":7283.204,"end":7306.356,"text":"我剛才說了基本上農業部是支持這樣子額度的調高因為他的基數過往的基數比較低了一點但是調高的過程中我們在試算我們每增加1000塊所需要的經費這是第一個第二個就是說這個增幅的比例也是要能夠跟其他的八大政府基金物價指數啊物價指數的成長率嘛作為依據嘛"},{"start":7308.177,"end":7332.78,"text":"沒有 物價指數一定會動只是再把這個額度的基數再把它拉高那這個部分我想我們方向是一致的是 部長所以講到這基數的拉高跟物價指數可以做調整的話我們也必須要有依據那尤其是我們的調整有設限在4年一次這個調整的這個週期可不可以改成2年一次或者1年一次的週期呢"},{"start":7333.28,"end":7349.382,"text":"我想我們支持有一個期中檢討就大概是兩年來檢討一次那檢討有一個標準就是它的CPI如果大達某一個百分比就觸動這個調整那我們現在初步的一個想法就是3%到5%"},{"start":7351.445,"end":7375.176,"text":"好 那這樣很好可是在調整中我們也要注意到一件事情剛剛也都提到排富條款有它的門檻就是農業以外他們的收入超過50萬的話還有第二個就是說除了他們的房子跟土地扣掉我們的農地或者是說他們的農舍以外超過500萬的話都會喪失了這個老農津貼 是不是"},{"start":7379.398,"end":7396.343,"text":"那現在又因為土地會增值啊這個14年沒有改的這個門檻土地增值剛剛講的被排除在外的有一萬四一萬二這些人就是這樣子的喪失所以我們制度要與時俱進的做調整部長說是不是"},{"start":7397.186,"end":7425.426,"text":"絕對同意就是我們也是朝這個方向就是土地公告限制這麼多年來從102年到現在一直都沒有調那沒有調的話我們希望說它可以根據土地公告限制一步到位的把它調調到符合現在的一個基準那第二個部分就是我們的所得雖然說所得是跟CPI比較有關但是我們所得也沒有跟著當初跟著額度一起調我們一直都不動所以這一次的排富我們不只是在所得上面我們會拉高"},{"start":7425.646,"end":7453.812,"text":"所有的配套都要配進去不要單一這樣調整這樣子不合公平尤其現在的生活經濟的狀況跟我們的整個通膨物價高漲的情形通通要把計算進去所以我也跟委員報告其實委員提了39個版本我們都非常認真的去分析然後我們也設計了一個這樣的一個方案所以今天在這個報告其實我已經蠻正面的回應了那因為行政院現在還沒有通過院會"},{"start":7455.663,"end":7472.31,"text":"不適當馬上講我們的數值不過我想盡快的我希望能夠爭取行政院下個禮拜可是部長我們送進行政院已經四個月了那你也特別說到你有跟行政院做專案報告那專案報告到現在為什麼沒送出來"},{"start":7472.93,"end":7500.747,"text":"是什么原因我跟委员报告我跟包括院长包括政委那边报告版本是一次比一次好所以他为什么还不送出来一次比一次好那我们看看会不会更好更好那你不能一次到位的提出来我才会说我期待期待什么时候出来你一定会出来我想因为愿贵不是我决定的但是我会跟行政院争取看看你报告几次了看看你一次一次比一次好你报告几次了"},{"start":7501.167,"end":7517.241,"text":"我至少報告三次以上三次了所以行政院版本應該要出來了嘛然後我現在已經訂案了訂案了就進到院會所以應該是年底就會進來我是期待我會再跟行政院爭取已經訂案就應該出來了嘛"},{"start":7517.401,"end":7534.431,"text":"沒有 行政院因為行政院院會排的案子很多我們希望說排進行政院院會的報告因為行政院是希望說跟其他八項社會福利的這個一起做調整才一起進來但是我們希望把這個農民的老農津貼這部分先行進來好不好"},{"start":7535.491,"end":7558.239,"text":"我想院長也有曾經這樣的一個想法農民的今天也許可以先行但是考慮的時候一定要同步考慮到其他的八大社會基金但是在同步考慮的情況之下那老農今天是不是可以先行一直等到越等越久你都報告三次了也要尊重我們部長好不好"},{"start":7559.739,"end":7582.334,"text":"我們一直努力的讓這個案子能夠讓我們的老農做得更好那你們還沒修 已經定案了但是我們本期還是要提一下因為老農他們彎著腰 守著土地在耕作 從年輕到老我們他的生活 高齡的老農的生活我們要給他一個有尊嚴的耕好好的照料跟保障"},{"start":7582.974,"end":7606.311,"text":"但是現在如果我們依一般的物價指數的成長率的話現在物價指數的成長率有分一般性的跟高齡的為什麼說高齡的 因為年紀比較大的他們的食物 醫療上他們的負擔會比較重比較大 對不對所以可不可以依照高齡的部分來對我們的高齡老農的津貼的部分來做調整我以這個為依據"},{"start":7607.865,"end":7618.41,"text":"我跟委員報告你用這樣的方式又會把很多的指數搞亂那移老農我也在那個座談會我也聽到因為農民在從事"},{"start":7619.868,"end":7647.577,"text":"從事農業的時候它的所有的消費是不大一樣的跟一般的不大一樣的所以也有人認為說應該去調查農民農村的一個所得消費的一個形態那樣子可能會造成不同的版本所以我們目前還是依據就是主計處這邊的一個一般的這個CPI的方式來調整所以本席提供給你這個標準跟一般的消費跟高齡的這個家庭的消費是不一樣的指數"},{"start":7648.637,"end":7661.466,"text":"這個表格都看得到對而且你要調查農村的消費是不一樣的本席提醒你是他們的食物跟醫療不一樣是跟他們生活是不同的是不是"},{"start":7662.332,"end":7677.683,"text":"沒有 我講國營那個我覺得因為65歲以上那65歲以上真正的還能夠就是非常健壯在天理工作的人其實還不少啦那相對的可能他在80幾歲70幾歲"},{"start":7679.884,"end":7700.941,"text":"我可以發現說參加農保的人他的平均移民比一般的還高一些所以不同的年齡層又不一樣了那就很難切啦所以還是請委員支持我們現在先用一般的CPI那如果說我們後續的這些其他的CPI的依據如果更精準的時候我們再來討論"},{"start":7701.581,"end":7715.691,"text":"是 我們希望我們的修法能夠更完善每個層級每個狀況都要考慮進去這樣的配套修出來法才會讓大家都能夠覺得對他們有能夠幫助好不好最重要保障我們農民的生活謝謝接下來請陳秦威委員來做詢問"},{"start":7727.552,"end":7733.541,"text":"非常感謝主席我會遵守時間先請勞保局陳白局長白局長"},{"start":7742.488,"end":7765.126,"text":"謝謝 局長上週五我們在新聞上有看到1219中山區的隨機傷人事件對全台灣人來說都是非常大的衝擊也非常的疼痛那這次的隨機傷人事件我去調查了一下時間是發生在下午的5點左右當時剛好是準備下班的時間那我希望勞保局可以針對這些受害者"},{"start":7765.666,"end":7783.36,"text":"還有他們的家屬提供必要的協助包含勞保勤領的行政流程我們是不是可以加速或者是你用專案的方式來處理一同來整理這些所有相關的相關的受害者還有家屬等等請問這個您做得到嗎"},{"start":7784.446,"end":7810.59,"text":"是跟委員這邊做報告委員剛才所提的這個我們一定遵照辦理那也做一個補充就是我們已經有跟台北市政府消防局這邊取得了受傷者傷亡的一個名單那他們的家保狀況目前都有掌握後續我們也會積極跟他們的家屬來做聯繫那提供一個在行政流程上面的一個協助好那可以一週內跟您要這個報告嗎委員就我們就後續的一個處理情形我們再跟委員這邊做報告好大概多久以內"},{"start":7811.682,"end":7833.626,"text":"因為這個我們要跟我們先就後續他們的權益因為這個會涉及個案部分那是不是給我們一個作業時間大概我們先就一個他們涉及的權益部分一周內先跟委員這邊做說明那可能個案的一個狀況因為他是保險給付的申請所以會涉及他們在給付上面申請的一個相關流程那這可能不見得是一個禮拜可以完成"},{"start":7834.588,"end":7841.021,"text":"好那我們大概兩個禮拜再跟局長要這個答覆好嗎是好謝謝局長局長請回那接下來請陳俊記部長"},{"start":7848.239,"end":7871.961,"text":"部長我們看這個新聞是有說美國的國務院官員有來台灣那據我私底下的了解也確實有部會接觸報載是說他見了好多的官員其中就包含農業部那我是想請問您有沒有辦法對這件事情給全國人民一個消息您是不是有見到有或是沒有還是您是沒有辦法沒有"},{"start":7872.842,"end":7894.484,"text":"你沒有見到我沒有見到他們沒有來拜會應該不是我們沒有見到應該他們沒來拜會那最後這幾次因為上次距離談判關稅的質詢已經是好幾個月之前了當時我們還認為我們是在前面的名單可是很顯然我們現在可能已經是全球倒數的談判名單但是幾乎是快談完了是嗎"},{"start":7895.748,"end":7910.036,"text":"我想後面一點不代表不好啦因為有更多的這些細節現在大概都已經確定了那我們應該可以樂觀以對的去針對因為我想我們的談判團隊 農業部是參與有參與這個談判"},{"start":7912.657,"end":7930.799,"text":"我們有派人 農業部有派人我們有參與我們有參與所有的談判過程那我們也一直堅守的我們當初對國人所說的我們在確保糧食安全的情況之下我們一定會讓我們的產業永續發展維持我們的競爭力那這個前提之下我們持續去爭取我們應該有的這些"},{"start":7931.6,"end":7952.566,"text":"但還是有很多農民有擔心啦因為比如說像這張圖就是許多農民顯示他們的心境嘛他擔心美國的大米進口台灣的好米會失去競爭力那我想知道說部長你應該也有看過這本嗎這本是美國對全世界各國的貿易作出報告以及包括對台灣的指教這個你應該知道嗎"},{"start":7953.966,"end":7975.909,"text":"這個我知道所以您要不要說說看在2025年美國的這本貿易報告裡面關於台灣的部分提到哪些跟您跟農產品比較有關係的事物呢我想第一個部分有關於這邊提到台灣稻米的這個價格的上限機制我覺得他講的是一個底價的一個機制"},{"start":7976.65,"end":8001.222,"text":"但是相對的因為我們國家有我們國家的一個對外的採購有沒有採購的一個機制那分兩個一個是最低的底價往上加價高的得一個是越低越好有兩個不同的機制那過往其實這個議題在台美雙邊的諮商的時候都一直談過然後我們也讓他們充分了解我們的定價的一個機制所以在這個部分大概沒有什麼特別問題"},{"start":8002.122,"end":8017.541,"text":"那以基改跟非基改的部分那基本上我們相關的基改食品一定經過衛福部的一個安全檢查但是以農業部的立場我們到目前為止還沒有同意任何一個基改產品在台灣的田裡種植這個政策是不會變的"},{"start":8018.843,"end":8039.869,"text":"然後有關於美豬美牛的部分那基本上產地標示就是原來的產地標示那這個部分是屬於衛福部的一個全責的部分那我想衛福部應該會有一個比較好的一個對外的一個說明特別是不管是萊克多巴胺也好我們現在目前公告的這個MRL的值都是符合安全標準的"},{"start":8040.356,"end":8054.376,"text":"好那我做一個統整第一你有談判到大米嗎對吧沒有聽起來你有應該所有的農產品都有談所有的農產品不是只有大米所有的農產品然後對於標示這部分剛剛你所說的你是不會退讓對吧"},{"start":8055.558,"end":8077.464,"text":"你還是會繼續標示我說標示的部分是衛福部的全責因為我們農業部是負責產地的部分好那關於萊劑跟以行受體素的管制這個你也說是衛福部的全責對嗎對那我剛才只強調說現在目前我們公告的萊劑跟相關的這個標準都是符合食品安全規範的部分"},{"start":8078.866,"end":8087.782,"text":"因为像美牛的部分也是很多燃气的部分这本书里面他还提到关于农药的残留的允许值这一点你们有谈到吗"},{"start":8088.294,"end":8112.823,"text":"我想我剛才說的我們在談判的過程中包括了關稅的議題也包括非關稅的議題嘛然後他們談該面都非常非常非常多元這本書裡面講的大部分都是非關稅的貿易壁壘所以我剛提的都是非關稅的貿易壁壘所以那個農藥的部分其實在平常的雙邊的會議就一直會在談這個議題所以它不是一個突然跑出來的議題"},{"start":8113.902,"end":8119.4,"text":"好但是這本裡面都是要求你們要放寬等等的所以我要問的是這個"},{"start":8121.024,"end":8143.823,"text":"我不了解因為我沒有很實際的去逐筆的逐頁去看這本報告裡面但是我所了解就是所有的這些農藥的殘留我們有我們的標準所以進口是依照我們的標準去處理的所以你的標準會不會有改變這個是你要告訴我們針對農藥的部分我所了解應該是沒有"},{"start":8144.755,"end":8164.323,"text":"好那再來呢這個就是大家對於你們出去談判可能覺得會有很大的影響的你覺得最大的影響會是什麼我想我們因為在整個談判結果最後沒有公佈之前我想我們只能說我們還是捍衛著我們的糧食安全"},{"start":8166.365,"end":8189.885,"text":"那我跟你說現在當然第一擔心的是稻米嘛第二再來是豬肉第三是雞肉的畜牧業也是緊張的不得了那為什麼本席今天需要跟你討論是因為我上次在這邊質詢的時候我是問衛福部的官員那當然現在他已經卸任了可是他當時答應我的是會以國人的安全為最高的指導原則因為您剛有提到他們是負責去做茶場的嘛"},{"start":8191.066,"end":8215.003,"text":"那為什麼要講這些呢是因為我們每次都是從新聞看到可是比如說之前的石破茂他在每次談判的前後都會跟國人開記者會包括談什麼回來跟國會報告並且他上節目NHK就說到食安的問題是不可以妥協的啊等等的那我們會希望說而不是一個突襲式的宣布這點你可以同意嗎"},{"start":8215.799,"end":8236.907,"text":"波向所有的談判沒有人在談判過程中隨時去洩露我們的底線那我想我們在談判的一個最大原則一定是保護農民權益確保我們糧食安全跟我們的產業永續這個絕對不會變的所以你剛才講的不管是大米不管是豬肉不管是雞肉我想我們應該對臺灣的農產品要有更多的信心"},{"start":8237.467,"end":8255.435,"text":"我們曾經在WTO的時候也擔心了好一陣子可是從上次加入WTO到現在我們的整個農業的GDP也提高了非常多部長我們就是希望你不要突然的宣布對農民的一個改變好不好然後接下來要問就剛剛有很多人提到這個"},{"start":8256.816,"end":8277.284,"text":"老年農民福利津貼暫行條例本期現在是要跟你討論他的名稱啦因為這個制度早就已經不是暫時的安排他已經實行超過30年並且他給付的對象啊資格啊行政流程都非常的穩定之前法律名稱用暫時只是因為只是因為當時制度尚未成熟條件還沒有明確那"},{"start":8278.864,"end":8296.867,"text":"現在呢農民他需要的是一個穩定可以預期的生活保障而不是在一個名稱上暗示隨時有可能結束的法律那也有很多學者提到是不是可以來定位他改變他的名稱在這邊想要問部長有沒有想過要改名刪除戰刑這兩個字"},{"start":8297.898,"end":8323.203,"text":"不過我想我們會配合國家的年金改革委員會的一些相關的一個決議因為暫行其實多這兩個字不會因為這兩個字就對農民就不照顧了那是在法律的位階上面來講那我想這個部分我想因為國家有個年金改革委員會的部分我想會充分的討論然後如果說他需要改革我覺得我們也樂意配合好那你可以一個月給我們一個書面答覆嗎"},{"start":8325.148,"end":8344.757,"text":"這個因為責任 不是就是我們沒辦法說決定說要改或不改因為這是牽涉到整個社福基金的國進改革的一個委員會裡面的一個決議那如果說有適當的決議或者是其他的部分但是我們也支持把這個戰情拿掉啦好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8379.011,"end":8387.858,"text":"對,你怎麼知道?"},{"start":8407.376,"end":8408.841,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9084.534,"end":9086.496,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來請張宏祿委員來做詢問我請陳部長來 部長"},{"start":9110.382,"end":9133.735,"text":"來 部長今天大家在討論老農津貼但我想先請問一下我們農民退休儲金現在它的普及率高不高如果以實際可以參加的22萬多人的話現在普及率大概4成那如果包括曾經領過的話已經高達5成了"},{"start":9136.314,"end":9160.137,"text":"但是最重要的是年輕的人他的比例比較低所以這是我們退休儲金修改的時候的一個重點希望說能夠提高一些誘因讓年輕的這些農民能夠參加退休儲金那現在現行的退休儲金是不是每個月繳每個月繳但是可以六個月之內可以補繳"},{"start":9162.798,"end":9189.505,"text":"六個月之內可以補繳當你的規定還是每個月繳吧對基本上是每個月繳對嘛你講的是六個月內補繳嘛那是補繳嘛對不對部長我們以前念書都有說春耕秋收東藏我們種田的人有每個月有收入嗎"},{"start":9191.943,"end":9209.041,"text":"要看你種什麼作物欸 種什麼作物每個月有收入蔬菜蔬菜 蔬菜一個月以上吧沒有 蔬菜有的快的話三個禮拜到四個禮拜你是說空心菜吧沒有 所以我說蔬菜類嘛短期葉菜類 應該是短期葉菜類好 那種蔬菜的占多少人"},{"start":9210.599,"end":9229.012,"text":"這個我可能要查一下而且種蔬菜的他每個月如果這個月遇到有水患 水災或什麼他有沒有收成所以我們才會再設計說如果說你沒有辦法每個月繳的話你六個月之內的話你可以補繳有這樣的一個機制沒有"},{"start":9232.926,"end":9241.613,"text":"你說有這個機制 六個月補繳我覺得 我一開始就覺得每個月都要繳我不一定有錢繳"},{"start":9244.821,"end":9262.809,"text":"你有沒有覺得這個是這個不普及一個很大的原因不過其實我們在座談會倒是沒有農民提出這個因為我們有設計一個六個月也可以繳的情況之下他們大概對這個議題比較沒有太大的一個反應如果六個月他還是沒錢繳"},{"start":9264.366,"end":9275.83,"text":"那就沒了嘛就中斷對啊那種田的啦比如說我種水果的我可能一年才一收是不是啊"},{"start":9280.188,"end":9306.6,"text":"不過我問你要種水果是不是一年一收我想這個邏輯不大必須釐清不是不對 必須釐清因為他不可能說他一年收了以後但一年收了以後他收到一筆錢他可以每個月分配到他的生活費什麼不可能說他收了一次一天就花光所以他一年一收但是他所收的這些利潤他可以維持他一年之中的一個生活"},{"start":9308.582,"end":9337.654,"text":"他一定這一年一定有收嗎如果颱風來他有得收嗎這要看那個颱風的情況啦你就回答我嘛種水果是不是一年一收嘛對 一年一收啊 對嘛我小時候我們都在種水果的啊我們在種奶汁的啊如果剛好八年多 我跟你講那年年少就沒了 要去跟人家借錢你知道嗎借錢過一季你知道嗎"},{"start":9341.892,"end":9361.192,"text":"我了解很多農民會遇到這種情況我跟委員報告其實農業的經營量也非常多然後特別是有這種多年生的果樹的部分一年一收但是他收完以後的收入他會做一年度的分配他不可能完全不分配我跟你講分配是一件事"},{"start":9364.042,"end":9378.385,"text":"以前 古早時代 我就沒有了 我要先去跟人家寫去集會店 去店裡 先寫 我修成了 我就行李了有沒有這種情況"},{"start":9379.71,"end":9398.073,"text":"以前啦以前有現在是沒得記帳啦但可能要跟親朋好友啊沒有 現在的部分也有一些特別是像肥料的部分他們也是特別是有器做的部分他們也是你不要講器做啦"},{"start":9399.144,"end":9418.445,"text":"我現在就跟你講會不會有我說的這些問題但是那個比例不高有沒有有嘛你也承認有嘛對不對那你如果承認有的情況之下你說我六個月了我沒有腳就沒有了"},{"start":9419.326,"end":9448.687,"text":"很多人會因為這樣而卻步那我們呢你看喔我們比如說勞工保險他也可以申請他幾個月三個月或六個月或怎樣繳一次對不對那我們對於這些農民我們可不可以也讓他不要每個月我們也可以放寬他也可以申請他比如說半年繳一次或是一年繳一次"},{"start":9450.185,"end":9463.558,"text":"也沒有思考過這個方向不過委員的建議我想我們可以很仔細的去思考就是讓他一段時間繳一次但是也不能無限的啦當然啦我沒有要求我剛講的沒有無限"},{"start":9466.621,"end":9488.352,"text":"我願意回來請我們的同仁去做一個規劃看看可不可以除了現在每個月繳可以延半年以外是不是可以說你可以申請或者是三個月六個月然後最多一年之內一定要繳用這樣的方式我願意請同仁來做一個更仔細的評估我覺得需要這樣子啦"},{"start":9488.872,"end":9514.439,"text":"就我所理解的很多人是為了每個月繳他卻不 有哪兩種人一個比較年輕的 我才要剛回來我才要剛開始做我每個月 這我他其他的生活負擔也有那有的是比較年紀大的他本來對這個就不了解他又想說我每個月又沒有固定的收入我每個月固定要繳"},{"start":9516.494,"end":9540.68,"text":"這個讓大家有一些就是不敢就去做因為它變成它每個月有一些負擔當然以政府的立場來講我政府也幫你出這個是一個很好的政策但一個很好的政策我覺得我們要實際上真正務農人他的收入情況我們要去考量尤其如果有遇到紮開或什麼他那一年搞不好還賠錢"},{"start":9542.588,"end":9562.558,"text":"不過總結一句只要能夠提高他們的覆蓋率的任何的方法農業部會一定盡可能的去做調整這個部分我想我可以這樣子的承諾好 所以我說的你如果可以不要每個月繳讓他們可以申請什麼的你們會回去研究"},{"start":9563.078,"end":9585.097,"text":"對 我們一定會回去研究如果可行的話我們就會來做我覺得一定可行你們去研究看看這個其他的保險其他的什麼也都有這樣做了不是憑空而來的我們為了我們的農民我覺得應該要這樣子做你們回去好好的評估一下可以好 謝謝委員"},{"start":9590.831,"end":9600.415,"text":"好謝謝接下來請盧縣議委來做詢問謝謝有請部長有請陳部長"},{"start":9606.614,"end":9626.733,"text":"喂部長辛苦了因為今天一直在重複同樣的問題那我還是想從我們的八千一百一十塊這個基數來談我們從民國八十四年開始三千塊一直到現在的八千一百一十塊那你覺得在世界的水準是大概是多少全世界的水準你在看的時候"},{"start":9627.287,"end":9655.252,"text":"我想全世界水準本身就要看看說它的國家有沒有像類似這樣的一個福利的制度我剛剛查了一下美國大概目前是19000塊可是他們的制度不是 那個瑞士最高19000塊 美國大概是10000塊當然我們是優於日韓我在看的時候可是剛才你現在有一點點口誤就是說每增加1000塊的話應該是如果現行是54萬人的話應該是5.4億沒有 一年12個月OK 一年12個月"},{"start":9656.502,"end":9661.782,"text":"那我們再看的話 有最低的生活費大概在全台灣是多少錢 知道嗎"},{"start":9663.55,"end":9687.968,"text":"根據剛才委員好像是一萬五千多台北市的話是兩萬所以八千一百一十塊我看如果是老人家的話一天的餐費大概就差不多了更不用說他要去做高鐵或是付水電費這些的費用我是覺得說這個八千一百一十塊確實是有需要調整你覺得到多少你覺得比較合理"},{"start":9688.228,"end":9711.523,"text":"不過我想我們在考慮這個額度的調整有幾個因素第一個因素就是說我們也認同現在的基數比較低跟現在的事業生活的一個水平是有一些差距但是我們也考慮到就是因為農業的經營比較特殊他不是65歲是完全沒工作像以農保的85萬裡面那將近有60萬將近有60萬是65歲以上的"},{"start":9714.525,"end":9731.692,"text":"那實際從農者也大概有30萬將近30萬是超過65歲的所以表示說他不只是單純這個8110塊當作他的唯一的一個生活的支出他也可以自己再從事相關的農業去得到他的這個所得"},{"start":9731.852,"end":9759.355,"text":"那個也是我們考慮的那我們再看那個就是最近在比較是勞農津貼跟那個勞退的那個金我是覺得一直很不公平就是說為什麼要拿三十年後的一個金額跟現在的勞工領了三萬三來做比較你覺得你有沒有在做一個詮釋或者是解釋的部分三十年後才會領到三萬八千四百七十九塊那為什麼一直在現在輿論以上都是在比三萬八跟現在的三萬三"},{"start":9760.615,"end":9788.01,"text":"不過我要跟委員報告就是我們對農民的退休後的生活的保障大概用我們的老農津貼當作基底然後我們也提出了一個農民退休儲金的部分去做一個堆疊式的我的意思是說這個38000是30年後對不對對 30年後這個老保的3300030年後誰知道是不是33000是不是更高不是 我們都是用同樣的推估來算的"},{"start":9789.844,"end":9813.991,"text":"那他們會認為說老農領的比較多不過你應該是要比的話應該是自體的儲金的比例對 應該是退休歸退休然後津貼歸津貼但是津貼的部分像勞保的部分的老年給付他每個月所繳的金額跟農民所繳的78塊他也有差那國民年金的話他一個月也繳了1250塊左右所以基本上這些給付"},{"start":9814.631,"end":9836.826,"text":"也要去檢視他的每個月的就是繳的這個金額來計算那現在的覆蓋率是41%左右然後年輕人是30%那我看到你們的那個計畫就說你們對農業的經營的準備金有給他們兩年大概72萬左右對 一年36萬對 那有多少人來申請這個錢那誘因是怎麼樣 為什麼不能提高"},{"start":9837.591,"end":9864.177,"text":"不過我想我們為了這是我想農業從事農業的唯一的沒有一個行業說他退休以後只要從事那個行業就一個月相當於一個月有3萬塊這是只有農業從事農的部分那這個部分現在目前大概覆蓋率可以領到大概900多人然後已經在領的大概來申請這個方案的話大概是39%左右大概將近4成"},{"start":9864.797,"end":9878.46,"text":"所以說也有增加的一個比例對那我們再看說國民黨的版本是一萬五民進黨是一萬二那你覺得合理的大概是多少錢不過我剛才說的就是我考慮的第一個因素就是"},{"start":9879.813,"end":9907.831,"text":"本身基數跟現在的物價指數這是一個關係第二個就是說我們也考慮他過往的提繳的金額嘛跟其他的因為最重要的是以行政的團隊一體的角度來講我們考慮農民老農經貞的時候也會同時考慮你們說版本差不多已經確定了嗎對確定了大概是落在我們是落在所有的委員的上下線中間所以不知道你還不能公佈答案"},{"start":9908.257,"end":9937.166,"text":"因為政院沒有核定沒有通過院會我們是不能對外說明的那我們是期待然後能夠把這個弱勢就是說能夠反映我們的物價指數那現在的外食的那個比例又這麼高我們現在的消費指數又這麼高我是覺得當然如果折衷一萬三一萬四當然是樂見那我們再看我們原住民的部分我想知道排富你剛才說排富到一萬兩千一萬兩千人左右那原住民有沒有被排富的"},{"start":9938.45,"end":9961.249,"text":"原住民有沒有被排富的沒有沒有統計這個部分是沒有統計還是不知道沒有統計我們沒有把它分我是希望知道有一個這個我想我們可以來了解那一直在排富的話就是大概我們現在是500萬嘛那麼現在的房子很容易就超過500萬我們現在大部分的委員是鐵道800萬以上到1000萬你覺得合理的數字大概是多少"},{"start":9962.385,"end":9981.523,"text":"我相信我們後續提出來的版本應該在委員會應該可以被接受OK好那我們現在有個提到一個重點就是原住民的部分能不能降低到55歲的情侶就是因為我們的平均移民的問題可是每次提到這樣的一個公平性的時候會覺得說很像不能用族群來看那你認為呢"},{"start":9983.004,"end":9998.653,"text":"不過我想我們在考慮特別是剛才我也了解原住民委員會在他們的報告裡面有講到他們有統計到原住民的全體的愚民比全國還低可是當我在處理老農津貼的時候我的族群是以"},{"start":9999.614,"end":10021.594,"text":"从事农业这些老农津贴的人的余命这个余命是比较高的可以更细致一点比如说他确实是从事农业然后他的男性的比例平均是82岁那我的意思是说可以就更细致来细分的时候我是觉得从实际的那个年龄的差距去算这样可以更"},{"start":10022.514,"end":10044.442,"text":"可以更說服國人說我們原住民的平均愚民在農人的時候是大概是多少我們才可以更精緻來算說大概是幾歲可以提前這樣子對 我跟委員稍微說明我們現在目前統計的就是我沒有分男女的部分就是65歲零老農津貼的這些人的平均愚民是82.7歲他比全國的80.8歲還高"},{"start":10046.703,"end":10071.964,"text":"所以我也謝謝委員的提醒我們後續會去更細分男的女的還有從65歲可能每5年每10年當作一個層級去做這樣的資訊讓我們的所有的原住民朋友們了解我們並沒有歧視他們我們只是用比較全國性的一致的標準去處理那謝謝部長用更細緻的方式來計算我們平均與命那謝謝你的努力 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10078.57,"end":10081.032,"text":"謝謝 接下來請王育敏委員來做詢答謝謝主席 我們是不是有請陳部長來 請部長委員好"},{"start":10096.755,"end":10122.63,"text":"部長好 我想今天呢跨黨派的委員大家都關心老農福利津貼要調整還有排附這個議題主要是我覺得大家已經看見了就是說農民在台灣他們其實他們的工作我只能講相對辛苦像我最近比較常跑這個嘉義縣我看到很多的這個老人家為什麼他這麼辛苦他年紀這麼大他還需要繼續從農"},{"start":10124.051,"end":10140.104,"text":"因為他需要靠從農再多增加收入他才可以維持他的生活像最近這個高麗菜我自己也去認購了三千顆高麗菜因為產區他的高麗菜他種一顆就是可能沒有辦法十塊錢這樣的價格"},{"start":10141.465,"end":10157.103,"text":"甚至他連這個去請人家來這個收割然後這個工錢都賣了所以就是說從容的人我覺得他們的這個收入是呈現在一個不穩定有可能有好的時候但是呢壞的時候你看像這個高麗菜"},{"start":10158.564,"end":10180.434,"text":"這個整個就是大家血本無歸啊就是那個不敷成本啊那另外不要講說天災這次的丹納斯風災在整個嘉義地區也造成重創我們看到的就是從農的人真的是奇產無比有的是即使是溫室的你種這個哈密瓜溫室的那個整個"},{"start":10181.374,"end":10195.881,"text":"全部也掀翻你溫室種蔬菜的也掀翻然後漁民的損失也是然後你即使是種植蘭花我看了很心疼我們有那個是青農他很用心的栽培蘭花結果他整個這個整個颱風這麼大他說他種植的蘭花"},{"start":10201.523,"end":10222.285,"text":"血本無歸啊整個都把他掀掉了他那一些遇災的那些場所通通都被摧毀了所以今天為什麼是跨黨派大家在這邊呢就是持續要幫這些老農來爭取因為他們的這個工作的環境他所面臨到天然災害的挑戰坦白講他比老公"},{"start":10222.765,"end":10237.32,"text":"比軍公教是高很多他真的就是看天在吃飯所以一個風災來可能會讓他這個損失非常大這個也是為什麼我看到我們現在雖然政府有很多的獎勵措施我們在鼓勵青年返鄉從農"},{"start":10238.661,"end":10261.622,"text":"但是坦白講那個速度跟這個老農已經老化沒有回來的速度這個是沒有辦法接上你從你自己這個領這個老農津貼的人數其實就可以看到我們老農津貼領的人數2007年還有六七點八萬人口但是你是呈現逐年下降最新的是一月的你們的數字是五十萬兩千人"},{"start":10262.683,"end":10290.926,"text":"等於說這個林老農今天的人口從2007年到現在呢他少了兩成五也就是你沒有一直補上來就是沒有一直補上來這個是我們看到的一個現況那這個就是今天為什麼要討論就剛剛我有聽到部長在講當然從政府的角度你會從這個公平性去橫評會去考量到其他的類別但是我要提醒部長是除了公平性之外你也要看到這個行業的特殊性"},{"start":10291.772,"end":10301.798,"text":"那我們國家的政策就是我們到底需不希望台灣的農業持續發展我想應該是希望吧做一個農業部部長應該希望吧永續的發展對不對"},{"start":10304.663,"end":10328.221,"text":"對 所以要永續發展你就必須有持續的這個青年人願意投入這個行業那你要讓他投入這個行業你就要讓他知道說投入這個行業雖然他過程是辛苦的 風險性也高但是政府在相關制度的設計上我會讓你在65歲退休的時候是可以得到一個相對安穩的保障的"},{"start":10328.601,"end":10352.686,"text":"如果政府有這樣的一個誘因我覺得也可以讓年輕人看到一些希望不會說我會擔心我在從農的過程當中我可能起起伏伏最後如果我可能總結下來我沒有剩餘但是至少政府會照顧我政府所累加起來的你們現在的雙重疊加的這個制度會讓我得到基本的保障"},{"start":10353.126,"end":10378.86,"text":"我覺得這個是我們應該要去追求的從這邊來討論就是看到它的特殊性還有我們整體政策我們希望永續農業所以有一些政府一定要出的比較多這個的合理性就會出來但是如果這些撇開不看就是直接去比較勞工當然大家就會覺得說為什麼是這樣但是大家沒有看到農民他承擔的風險比其他的職業其實來得更高而且他是要自行吸收"},{"start":10381.2,"end":10406.745,"text":"然後又兼勞工然後迎虧自負就是這樣子然後受到天氣變化的這個程度又很高所以我們今天討論這個我覺得那個背景其實可能要再看得更清晰一點那現在我擔心的就是你們現在推的這個農退儲金覆蓋率其實整體加起來不到三成這樣一個情況他其實就是在反映為什麼年輕人不太願意他猶豫"},{"start":10407.725,"end":10435.896,"text":"因為他不確定他要不要從農到老他可能會有那個猶豫對不對不過我跟委員修正一個資訊就是目前的退休儲金達到多少已經將近42%那如果連包括已經領過的已經將近五成了但是年輕的部分大概就是二十幾到三十左右這也是我們要努力的目標這個就是我要跟你講的年輕人如果你讓他覺得說好你從農然後你65歲"},{"start":10437.236,"end":10456.531,"text":"就是可以做到65歲退休的時候政府給你的保障是讓他看起來覺得是很安穩的我覺得會鼓勵他們的信心所以這個剛剛我也聽到你有在提到說這個農退儲金只要可以去提高他的這個參與率你們都會往這個方向前進"},{"start":10457.412,"end":10481.859,"text":"甚至於我會設計你只要參加退休儲金我的所有農業政策的補貼可以加碼因為我們也看到了他們過往都有很多都是為了他的基礎設施包括溫室包括一些系統都要自己付錢所以我把這個提高的時候他對他們的誘因更大所以除了鼓勵他們任何的一個方式我們都願意來做"},{"start":10482.839,"end":10509.597,"text":"好我覺得這個部分的確是應該要去增加的然後你們提到的這個所以第一個就是說那個津貼的金額也應該要增加因為如果我們農民他是一個比較特殊的工作的話這個我要跟你討論的就是到底我們現在的這個暫行條例今天在未還委員會審結果都是我們農業部部長在回答大家沒有覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":10511.845,"end":10523.525,"text":"他的属性是什么我现在要问你也就是说老年农民福利津贴他是社会福利还是应该是他退休金补充的一环是社会福利"},{"start":10524.389,"end":10541.075,"text":"是社會福利 對是社會福利喔但是其實在你們今天的報告裡面你們第一頁自己就提到了就是說農保沒有老年給付項目所以政府為了照顧農民晚年生活增進農民福祉才搬行的這個暫行條例"},{"start":10542.495,"end":10555.007,"text":"你提到的是沒有老年那是84年的時候還沒有這個條例的時候是沒有所以我們才會設計一個這樣的一個條例來類似其實我覺得到現在真的到了檢討的時候了當時用了一個暫行這兩個字一施行從民國84年到現在就是30年我想沒有任何一個暫行可以實施這麼久"},{"start":10567.658,"end":10591.608,"text":"暫行就是一個落日條款他是要一個接軌制度的但是現在如果以農業部告訴大家的到最後一頁到農業部告訴大家的我們是一個疊加的概念事實上你這個老農福利津貼他是第一層你要往上加的是農民退休儲金他是第二層那如果是在這樣的一個疊加的概念底下你這一層不能拿掉啊"},{"start":10592.108,"end":10615.911,"text":"你應該是常態化的施行 沒有暫行這兩個字津貼應該就變成是你的第一層它是要持續性穩定的發放才對 是不是同意所以我第一個建議就是老年農民津貼沒有暫行這兩個字暫行應該就直接拿掉它必須是個永久性的措施才會符合你們的1加1這樣的一個概念"},{"start":10616.531,"end":10641.461,"text":"第二個他到底是退休金的補充還是是一個福利津貼我覺得要重新定義如果以這個農業部你們自己對外講的你們畫的這個圖事實上他就是個退休金的補充他是1加1的概念就是你有第一層最穩定的保障然後再加上退休儲金看繳多少繳多久再加上來應該是這樣的概念"},{"start":10642.161,"end":10667.049,"text":"所以這個如果一直用福利這樣的一個概念我覺得會跟其他的過去我們在談這個都說八大社福津貼大家是連動的所以你才用四年的CPI但是我個人認為應該是脫鉤他其實跟八大社福津貼的屬性又不太一樣而今天其實我們也看到了整場委員會的質詢衛福部部長有在嗎沒在啊次長也不在啊"},{"start":10667.589,"end":10685.755,"text":"最關鍵的事實上還是農業部因為就是這些農民是你主要要服務的對象農保然後加上這個退休儲金也是你們現在在規劃所以我認為這整個屬性大家應該要從頭來思考了當時可能是用一個比較緊"},{"start":10687.276,"end":10710.331,"text":"就是說當時的立委是比較快速的提出來然後他也只是真的只是一個很短暫的3000塊的就是很少的真的是一個福利津貼性質但是到現在大家在討論的他必須能因應他的老年生活他必須能滿足就是他基本的開銷部長你是不是應該回去重新檢討思考他還是只是一個福利津貼性質嗎"},{"start":10711.191,"end":10739.271,"text":"我第一個跟委員報告就是我們堆疊式的設計是為了確保農民退休後的生活保障是所以是退休後的生活保障對那一個部分是用福利的制度去處理一個部分是用退休金的方式去處理的部分所以你可以看到84年開始的一個基數那時候都還沒有CPI都是在歷次的立法委員這邊的爭取之下來提高的部分"},{"start":10739.651,"end":10767.864,"text":"那後來在100年開始我們才導入一個比較正式的一個CPI的指數那我也願意就是說像我會問法治一下因為暫行拿掉跟不拿掉它的法律效益到底差在哪邊那如果能夠當作一個正式的條例當然以我農業部旅長當然是最好那我必須考慮到法治面是不是可以這樣直接拿掉這個我想容我後續我的建議就是正式化因為你寫暫行兩個字農民就想說哪一天"},{"start":10768.784,"end":10788.673,"text":"不實施了 暫停就是這個意思嘛如果要常態實施的 我想就沒有暫停不過我想我們再從法律的位階來講不會說今天就不玩了我知道 但是名稱就是名實相符嘛我的立場是如果能夠拿掉如果在法制上沒有什麼特別問題的話我也願意我想他應該就要變成是一個常態性的措施了好 謝謝好 謝謝翁議員 謝謝部長接下來請鄭天才委員來做選擇"},{"start":10808.912,"end":10830.422,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長來 請陳部長館長好部長好這個有關老農津貼暫行條例事實上這個實施已經30年了到今年正好是30年了等一下"},{"start":10838.959,"end":10859.148,"text":"不好意思好這個30年所以本席在去年3月13號去年3月13號就提出來要把這個暫行"},{"start":10861.517,"end":10882.956,"text":"這兩個字既然已經實施40年了到去年是39了到今年正好是30年所以這個部分這個一定要拿掉這是第一個第二個在法制面沒有問題法制面沒有問題當初之所以加戰刑就是暫時的"},{"start":10885.484,"end":10909.947,"text":"十十幾年就可以不要了採用暫行那現在既然已經要繼續實施了也不會停了除非廢止除非廢止所以這個在法制面沒有問題所以大家有這個共識好我們看這個原住民原住民的這個"},{"start":10911.912,"end":10940.301,"text":"年齡 刚才部长也做了一些回应事实上如果我们从其他的法例国民年金法年住民就是55岁然后呢公务人员退休之前府系法公务人员年住民年住民55岁55岁这个公立学校教职员退休之前府系条例"},{"start":10941.4,"end":10967.826,"text":"原住民也是55岁之所以会这样子定就是因为原住民与非原住民的这个平均移民有真的很有确实有这个确实有这个落差所以当然部长又会用上次回应的刚才你也回应了就说这个事实上"},{"start":10969.276,"end":10988.173,"text":"从事农业的基本上它的余命比较高所以因为我们在处理老农津贴所以一定要用这个族群来看这个我知道你有讲过事实上如果仔细分析其实不是这样我们可以另外在主条的时候再讨论好 我们看这个老农津贴啊"},{"start":10989.028,"end":11015.39,"text":"他這個基於職業屬性的一個福利基金 你們說這個不宜再針對不同族群而有不同的一個規範這個而延民會今天的報告就說這個提案反對原住民族權利有提升者本會 就是延民會競表贊同這個部分"},{"start":11017.261,"end":11034.591,"text":"這個我剛有講如果從我們的平均移民確實有這個落差剛才那個表是三地原住民跟平地原住民平均的一個表如果是三地原住民那個差距更大"},{"start":11036.352,"end":11063.734,"text":"這是以全部的原住民當作統計的母數那我剛才說的如果是以從事農業領老農津貼的這個當作母數的話它是比全國的漁民還高不是 那個你這樣的一個計算是因為 不是 不是那個部長 你要去計算的話你要先從不是從老農津貼因為老農津貼幾歲開始"},{"start":11065.44,"end":11090.609,"text":"65岁啊对嘛是因为65岁计算的时候可以老农金农民退出租金的但是如果你从这个年轻的时候开始算农民年轻的时候你永远不知道他什么时候过往对就是所以从事农业的部分只能说从事农业的已经在领老农津贴的这个族群去算"},{"start":11093.212,"end":11117.039,"text":"這個如果你從農民農民整個原住民的農民跟全國的農民的平均移民你去比較的話你就不會你就會改變你的想法不然的話為什麼國民年金法會這樣子制定為什麼這個公務人員的教職員的"},{"start":11118.997,"end":11134.194,"text":"確實是這樣 確實是如此所以這個部分就是有很多繳了之後以公務人員來講他每個月繳提撥儲金結果他還沒有55歲還沒有65歲他就離開了"},{"start":11140.345,"end":11165.561,"text":"所以才會去降低才會有這樣的一個規劃我不瞭解其他的其他的那些條文裡面55歲的部分的立法的原因啦不知道以農業部來講我們還是用從事農業的這個族群去計算所以當然所以他的餘命是比較高的所以要以從事農業然後要以所有的族群非原住民從事農業他幾歲開始"},{"start":11168.305,"end":11185.211,"text":"然後到整個 對啊 我們就是這樣因為從事農業你有領老農 表示你有加農保然後有領老農津貼的部分他的餘命就是82點多歲嘛好 這個部分這個園民會一直想要說明要說明嗎好 請來 副組長"},{"start":11197.965,"end":11213.64,"text":"我説明一下就是這個其實也是衛福部在112年提出的說法就是因為針對老農津貼的部分行政院跟都有邀請各部會來討論過我們剛剛部長所講的部分是從112年的報告來看的話"},{"start":11220.407,"end":11249.118,"text":"那個衛福部的原住民勤領那個老農津貼的部分是82.9歲然後剛剛部長意思就是說那個是高於那個非原民的勤領的部分其實從報告上來看衛福部講的是他是82原住民勤領的平均年齡82.9歲是高於全體國人的"},{"start":11249.798,"end":11265.271,"text":"平均餘命也就是他並不是跟非原名的老農來去做比較如果我們用那個老農來比較的話65歲以下的那個原名的秦嶺的平均餘命跟"},{"start":11266.092,"end":11281.404,"text":"跟非原民的老農來比較的話其實原民的老農是平均餘命是低於3.3歲那如果我們是就所有的農保的那個投保人數來算的話那那個"},{"start":11284.367,"end":11305.725,"text":"原民的老農的那個平均原命是跟非原民的差到5.5歲這是111年的一個數據好 再把這個書面的資料再提供給我好不好這個部分我們希望能夠做非常明確的一個處理"},{"start":11307.469,"end":11318.033,"text":"好 因為時間的關係 因為我還要去財政委員會去質詢 就到這邊好 謝謝 謝謝政委 謝謝部長好 接下來請丁學忠委來做詢問好"},{"start":11335.702,"end":11339.363,"text":"好 謝謝部長好 感謝教委 感謝我們黨國教學委員好"},{"start":11352.129,"end":11359.996,"text":"請問我們知道70幾年以來台灣的物價上漲基本生活上的改善越來越大因為整個勞農津貼的制度有對付到現實生活身分的問題身分的問題跟我們現在處理的勞農津貼不是完全對等的關係"},{"start":11380.878,"end":11383.44,"text":"好 沒關係來 我們這個勞動金條已經開罐了我們就在十幾年前我們開學有假的基礎有調整過這個機制九五前去到大概假期一百多塊不已經一百十塊假期一百十塊當這十四年來租假種植的消費者有假的基礎已經累積上漲將近兩成"},{"start":11411.355,"end":11431.788,"text":"請問我們這個國庭 先有先人 現行的經貼經驗已經過發到幾乎老農最基金的這個生活 我說幾千幾百十個我跟委員報告 我們的福利制度裡面所提出來的八千一百一十塊絕對不是讓老農就可以去"},{"start":11433.379,"end":11462.003,"text":"完全去做過很好的生活它只是一個福利制度裡面一個政府對老農的一個照顧那第二個部分就是說我們農民沒有65歲就退休了有非常非常多的將近30萬的農民65歲還繼續工作所以他可以繼續從事農業的這些所得再加上政府對農民的一個照顧這樣的話就能夠讓他的退休以後的生活特別是我們現在又推動退休儲金嘛"},{"start":11462.824,"end":11468.904,"text":"那未來的年輕人他退休以後可以領到應該三萬九千多塊好 南中啊"},{"start":11470.117,"end":11478.844,"text":"將對我們老人經常號稱有貴額物價指數的挑戰的世界但實際上十四年來只有三個條件以前每個條件的幅度只有幾百塊對於沒有其他退休年金也沒有穩定的修律的老人來說這樣的經濟將要求喪失"},{"start":11497.684,"end":11520.528,"text":"我跟委員報告 你剛才說的說我們現在的物價一直漲高嘛我們的物價的標漲會反映在我們的CPI所以我們過去80年開始 應該100年開始那個調整都是根據CPI下去調整的所以這個物價的上漲大概可以用CPI去處理現在比較大的問題就是我們的基數比較低"},{"start":11521.668,"end":11538.459,"text":"我們的基數比較低的時候造成我們現在剩下一百十塊而已所以農業部也是希望說可以把這個基數再往上調一些那至於調多少會根據我們的財政的負擔會去做估計"},{"start":11539.428,"end":11543.43,"text":"在這裡跟國庭學校講講我們這裡的牢籠年紀怎麼那麼大拖累、衰退當沒辦法去做事這裡後一年也沒有老人地方來做事中國的護照廟做事也沒有其他修理這裡的牢籠是越來越多我們都被公共調查"},{"start":11564.801,"end":11574.617,"text":"當這尿流氓菌條裡面有多少人是因為這尿流氓菌條裏面做外殼的位置或是主要的生物的來源"},{"start":11575.717,"end":11603.727,"text":"我們現在沒有這個調查因為基本上我剛才說的農民退休以後政府給他一些厚利的金錢他本身他也有一些人他繼續在做農業有些人他如果沒有做的時候他的後代、他的屍髓也會來奉養所以基本上不是唯一靠這個8110來生存的"},{"start":11604.888,"end":11610.314,"text":"我還要再告訴你們一件事當我生在我們墳林海上我們五姓以上的徒弟都在做事我經常去到我們增開的地方經常看到是大人、野怪"},{"start":11621.492,"end":11631.916,"text":"兩隻腳的骨輪都去換人工的還有一隻四腳骨要去送那副養宿載我在問他們為什麼會受傷這樣他們說這就是從小做事做到老所帶來的傷痕所以我們世界我們這些農民他們的辛苦付出"},{"start":11648.543,"end":11659.888,"text":"這是第一次我們來臨黨我在這裡跟國長各個請說我們要求提出勞動警察提為今過程一百二十個一屆提告到委員會一萬兩千個國長希望你要理解你要理解這不是嫁給我的福林是一次性反映這十幾年來累積"},{"start":11678.004,"end":11689.751,"text":"其實通訪的基要性的這個條件其實這是等於制度人群照顧基群生活的水準這樣 看你有沒有認同"},{"start":11691.576,"end":11711.517,"text":"我基本上 我剛才在去報告就說了就是說我們的農農經濟裡面有兩部分一部分就是我們的額度的提高嘛一部分是排富的部分嘛那額度的提高我們也認為它的基數比較低所以可以適度的提高不過藉著拿到外面來看我們的財政的一個負擔"},{"start":11712.558,"end":11719.223,"text":"再來剛才我們國庭有去講到這個開戶啦所來我會跟國庭有請教我們這個開戶的條件現時是流浪金鐵的土地跟港澳開戶的門檻停留當民國一百年所定的五個月十四年來完全沒有調整過但是經濟我們來講過住宅價格的指數這種期間基礎已經為一百年的七十個"},{"start":11742.261,"end":11748.685,"text":"我們的資料是從100年開始到現在到73年我們的土地的公告限值已經提高了64.7%"},{"start":11758.479,"end":11764.264,"text":"所以我們這個排富的標準已經拖過這個世界的總共15萬所以在這裡我會報告也說針對排富的部分我們也認為過往這些排富都沒有去調整是是必須在這一次在修法的過程中我們一併來調整"},{"start":11782.541,"end":11793.923,"text":"所以我們後續的牌覆的設計也會根據這個土地的公告限值的增值的部分把它納入我們的增加提高我們的牌覆表格這樣就對了 這樣就對了國情啦 很多人都好像住在一間大型的老房子所以因為我們這個房價 地價的上漲讓林田資產過高"},{"start":11806.246,"end":11809.389,"text":"而喪失這個津貼的資格這樣結構成為頂端用通貨跟房價上漲經濟弱勢的牢籠去解讀所以我認同我們剛才國庭說的這個國分需要來檢討這個國分需要來檢討要讓我們牢籠"},{"start":11828.829,"end":11843.632,"text":"給一個比較好的一個高中這樣可以啦我想我們的風雲都大方向都一樣那後續我想我們的版本進到立法院以後我們會做一個更實質的一個我們的版本是憲政院的版本"},{"start":11844.564,"end":11855.456,"text":"對 因為我們的版本就要上到行政院討論以後然後合訂以後要進到院會院會通過再出來我們盡快的請示行政院我們只能這樣講因為院會不是我們的白的我們也是要幫你順利一點"},{"start":11864.545,"end":11868.987,"text":"一輩子為台灣牛市安全付出的農民若在退休後 制度沒有恢復 而且生活困難政府照顧技術不夠就沒辦法了這些農民辛苦 辛苦做一輩子政府既然有這個退休金的金條 國條銀就應該有更好的機制"},{"start":11889.856,"end":11891.979,"text":"來規劃現時的總統來調整這個國分 國長有可能你來比較用心一點比較用心 讓我們的農民實在體會到我們政府是真真正正在照顧他們"},{"start":11906.519,"end":11927.299,"text":"我跟委員報告 委員提出來的39個版本我們每一個版本都把它做了分析然後我們也做了一些研議那大致上的方向都跟委員的版本是一樣的就是那個額度的部分要適度的提高然後排富的部分一定要納入相關的這些土地的公告限值的這個計算的標準"},{"start":11927.739,"end":11946.99,"text":"所以方向都是一致的 只是說在額度方面的部分一定要考慮到財政的部分嘛 那後續我想我們的版本進到立法院以後 我們會再跟我們的委員做一些溝通跟說明有好的溝通就有好的結果啦這樣麻煩我們搞定 感謝教委 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":11953.312,"end":11971.576,"text":"委員會這邊公告我們現在處理開會時間 中午我們就不休息但是12點半還是要讓各位這個出列席者要休息 上個廁所一下現在大家也可以來進行用餐接下來請賴瑞榮委員來做詢問好 謝謝召委 請陳部長來 部長"},{"start":11984.502,"end":12006.7,"text":"部長這個提高老農津貼的這個方向部裡面應該是支持啦對 我剛才說了就是說不管在額度或是在排富的部分那什麼時候會把這個版本提出來我想我們現在的版本現在在行政院那我們會去爭取盡快有沒有問過院裡面什麼時候會把它提到因為院會的"},{"start":12007.08,"end":12029.633,"text":"排院會的部分有很多不同的法案都在排隊嘛那我想我們會再去爭取部長有提到好像今年5月有提到年底前希望送到院裡面來送我們的目標是這樣子啦但是因為最後的那個立法院排進去我們還會再跟行政院希望加快速度好不好大家都也有共識的嘛這立委們也有共識包括布林報院也有共識提高"},{"start":12030.513,"end":12057.33,"text":"這個老龍津貼的部分因應相關的物價跟相關的整個通膨的部分給予合理的一個調整好那我再來問一下部長那金額的部分會到多少部裡面提出來我剛才說的就是說雖然說我們在110年100年開始我們的那個額度的部分每4年有根據CPI調整但是因為當時的基數比較低所以你調了這麼多年來才到8110塊"},{"start":12059.651,"end":12083.841,"text":"那很顯然這個基數太低我們覺得這個基數是可以適度的提高部長我直接問問會不會超過1萬元我沒有辦法現在完全的說明但是部長你支不支持超過1萬元我基本上我們在看任何的金額的部分一定會去看我們的財政的負擔對 所以如果財政負擔可以撞向你支持超過1萬元"},{"start":12085.407,"end":12110.535,"text":"我們也要看比例啦這個部分我覺得我現在沒辦法很明確的說明多少錢不過你的版本已經送到院會了不是嗎我基本上希望說我們的條的幅度是有一個那你送到院會的版本有沒有超過我想我們因為院裡面沒有核定我們沒辦法在這邊但是應該是朝這個方向對不對對就是會提高這個是確定的提高確定的然後朝向1萬元以上的這樣方向"},{"start":12113.817,"end":12137.441,"text":"好沒關係不勉強部長了好不好我們朝努力因為我希望還是現在其實不管是老農甚至於青農甚至很多的其實我覺得對農民的照顧還是要持續的增加讓我們的農村讓我們的農民有更多人願意在那邊做努力好不好那我一樣的問題這個大家也提到暫行的部分部長應該同意把這個暫行拿掉了吧"},{"start":12138.226,"end":12162.574,"text":"對 我剛才也特別說了就是當初立法的時候我不在場我不知道當初以暫行條例的這個暫行放下去的立法的原因不過以現在這個制度來講已經推行了這麼久那我們更應該把它制度化變成一個財力如果在法制上沒有特別問題然後再因為這個要調整可能要經過年金改革委員會來討論那我們也會支持部長"},{"start":12164.895,"end":12189.488,"text":"最早的是民國84年的老年農民福利金暫行條例超過30年了30年也都在發放了那一個事情暫行了30年我想可以不用再暫行了這已經是一個固定的制度那現在走向兩套制度並用的方向也都確定了所以我認為這個暫行應該是可以拿掉了就是朝向整個部長應該同意這樣的方向吧"},{"start":12189.708,"end":12206.708,"text":"對 如果說在法制上面如果沒有特別的問題的時候我們覺得因為它的製度部長 法制上有什麼特別的問題這件事情內部應該有機會因為我不瞭解所以我說如果法制上沒有任何問題的時候我們也支持用暫行可以拿掉農業部的幕僚單位有跟你做過報告嗎這個部分暫行的部分是可以刪除的"},{"start":12209.81,"end":12237.518,"text":"OK 我們法制說暫停的部分如果說因為制度一直在執行是可以刪除的對 法務的意見給你是可以刪除的那部長你支持把它拿掉我個人覺得說它的制度應該是一個連續性的如果是連續性的一個政策法務上沒有問題法制上沒有問題的話你支持把它拿掉好 謝謝我們的看法是一樣的我認為就是把它拿掉讓大家知道我們這一套退休的制度是穩固的"},{"start":12238.058,"end":12261.329,"text":"特別是已經過30年了 也已經過30年了好 那再來我也請教一下這個因為部長剛剛也提到了就是說本來是年底前 今天12月24的那接下來送到委員會來運作的時候送到院會來 立法院院會來處理完畢的時候這個的回推會回到今年來會溯及既往嗎 還是會將來來整個"},{"start":12263.711,"end":12268.001,"text":"通過的時候再來整個試用還是會溯及到明年的1月1號開始"},{"start":12269.861,"end":12295.991,"text":"這要看後續這個法案通過了以後的時間點那如果說在法規上面的一個可以追溯的話就會追溯到1月要看法規本身部長 照你的精神上面你希望在今年5月的時候你希望在今年年底前完成我們希望在這個會期我們希望明年1月1號已經可以有新的在這個會期我們盡量那我們朝這個努力啦 方向努力大家也認為應該給予這些老人基金提高的話"},{"start":12296.551,"end":12317.141,"text":"那不管通過時間點也許是因為會期延伸延到明年的1月底我相信明年1月底前應該會完成這個修法我們也期待這樣子對 那如果完成修法的話是不是我們就溯及到1月1號來發房那這樣的話我想我們也希望是朝這個方向好不好對 朝這個方向我們朝這個方向來做明年1月 我相信朝野的立委都會支持不管最後的金額增加多少"},{"start":12317.921,"end":12346.777,"text":"回溯到1月1號來正式發放應該是大家願意給農民的一個支持那部長也支持這個方向 謝謝再來關心的是台幅的部分因為現在因為當時設定了500萬的這樣的一個條款那事實上現在的農地的價格也都很多都上來的其實有時候稍微就超過了有時候可能一分地就超過了其實並沒有很大可能不到300坪的面積可能就超過了這個台幅的條款農地不算"},{"start":12347.957,"end":12366.015,"text":"好 農地不算在那個計算裡面所以可以不用農地是不算的好 OK那如果這樣的話其實一個對 但是其他的部分會被排除掉嘛是不是對那這個部分排富的部分部長這邊會不會做整體的思考我想排富的部分我剛才也說了第一個部分就是所得的排富的部分"},{"start":12366.676,"end":12390.527,"text":"那過去也都沒有跟著CPI調整所以這次我們也希望說他跟著CPI來調整然後第二個部分是財產的部分那財產的部分特別是土地的部分如果排除了農地以外的其他的土地的部分那這個部分土地公告限值在過去從100年到現在已經提高了60%多了64.78%左右所以我們也希望說"},{"start":12390.967,"end":12408.449,"text":"他可能因為家裡有一個自住的住宅的房子那個房子價格如果超過了500的話他就沒辦法領到所以我們也會把他根據我們的土地公告限值去做相關的所以這個也會拉高啦會拉高比如說如果他是自有的住宅自己的總是老人家他有一個老"},{"start":12408.889,"end":12429.905,"text":"老房子 然後居住的那因為現在價格拉高了以後可能超過500萬了 對不管是土地 不管是房子對 我們都希望拉高因為我一直認為農民一輩子辛苦買來的房子他不會因為輕易的賣掉啦那他的這些地價上漲也不是他當然他最後可能會得利"},{"start":12430.425,"end":12454.338,"text":"但是他不可能為了這個得利馬上賣房子通常老農民不會願意去輕易的賣掉自己的房子所以我們希望說適度的提高這個排富的門檻不要因為這些而影響到他領進去老人我們在設計的時候是這樣設計的好不好 那我們希望這個部分盡快的提出來那適度的調高讓這些老農們他們一輩子務農一輩子付出這個部分他能夠領得到他該有的一些津貼好不好"},{"start":12454.898,"end":12472.547,"text":"那再來我也請教一下其實我覺得老農的部分不只是發現金包括甚至青農因為我前陣子剛也到東高雄去美農旗山很多的綠色的照顧服務其實也做得相當好我也希望很多的老人家其實他到了"},{"start":12474.148,"end":12489.865,"text":"社區關懷劇院去了其實不只是做一些他有時候做一些綠色的職財是他很多有過去的一些農作的經驗老人家很多有農作的經驗那他們其實來做的話其實那也是非常療癒的過程通常也非常有我是希望能夠大力的支持我希望農業部能夠大力的支持在各個"},{"start":12490.986,"end":12511.754,"text":"農村或各個地方的社區的一些站點的時候有更多的這樣的推廣讓更多的老人家走出他的家庭走出他的到社區來同時間做的事情不是只做原來既有的他同時間也可以做更多的這些農業的或者做一些植栽的或做一些的綠色照顧的等等這些我認為對他們都是一個非常好的方向"},{"start":12511.974,"end":12536.034,"text":"我謝謝委員 我還是跟委員說明就是從我個人在政策上的一個方向就是農村不再是一個生產的一個基地農村應該有更多的那個支持系統去導入特別是針對農村的老人本身的綠色造物我們有綠飲食 綠陪伴 綠療癒那這等等的部分就是為了能夠讓我們的"},{"start":12537.555,"end":12560.79,"text":"年紀長者在農村的年紀長者能夠得到一個應有的照顧這個我希望擴大來加大來舉辦好不好我們會這樣擴大來辦理最後一個就是像最近高雄的南瓜生產過剩那很多其實可以作為冷凍的蔬菜我也希望這一塊請營養農業部持續的注意如果有些我們的農產品生產過剩的時候冷凍蔬菜其實是未來一個也是重要的一個趨勢方向能夠協助好嗎"},{"start":12561.07,"end":12585.836,"text":"對 有一些特定的可以冷凍的蔬菜我們會在產銷調節的過程中去協助農民去做一些冷凍然後先凍存以後再做加工好 謝謝 希望維持他們的價格然後也希望在農產品發揮最好的效果這是我們應該要做的好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝二位 謝謝部長這剛剛應該是姚署長要答覆才對才不會不虛實行接下來請徐委員"},{"start":12595.594,"end":12598.715,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請農業部陳部長來 請部長委員好部長好部長我們今天在討論這個老農津貼的提高那我知道其實您是最關心農民的部長所以針對這部分剛剛我有聽到很多委員在質詢您您說一定會提高但提高的額度你還沒經過政院所以沒有辦法在這邊回覆"},{"start":12622.882,"end":12636.478,"text":"那我剛剛有看到您有做了一個報告就是各版本的財務評比的比較表就是如果一個月提高到8,550的話大概增加27.93億元增加到9,000大概是56.50億元然後如果增加到1萬的話大概是將近120億元"},{"start":12643.266,"end":12667.055,"text":"那如果有的委員版本是一萬二就兩百四十六億元那有的委員版本我們黨團的版本是一萬五千所以大概要四百三七點三八億元那請問部長針對你們現在所做的財務評估還有就是您知道農業部的整個的預算的配比那比較有可能的是怎麼樣的這個提高到哪個金額你們才能夠負擔"},{"start":12667.967,"end":12689.182,"text":"不過我想針對因為我們在送院的總預算裡面並沒有納入這個經費因為照原來這是四年調一次那我們在內部評估也覺得說應該啟動這個修法配合這些委員的一些意見所以不管他調多少我們都必須要去做額外的經費的爭取以現在來講就是說"},{"start":12692.765,"end":12719.242,"text":"每1000塊的話 將近64億 63.5億左右那這個部分我們就會考量到就是說在現在委員提的版本 39個版本裡面最高是12000最低是沒有調的部分那我們設計是在這個之間是我們在經濟的負擔上是可以負擔的我要跟委員報告 農業部的預算裡面有將近800萬是依法律義務支出的"},{"start":12719.582,"end":12731.756,"text":"然後特別是在農保還有一些相關的這些農業經濟的部分一年就花了大概四五百萬五百億去的所以當我的一個財政結構太多是福利支出的時候對我們現在的農業經營是有影響的"},{"start":12734.799,"end":12763.572,"text":"所以我想後續會再跟委員討論對 我剛剛也有再提出說到底多少是你覺得不會有排擠效應的問題那所以目前看起來的話就是因為院白沒過可是你在這邊可能沒有辦法說出來但是你們的主張是希望調高那就是本席在這邊也跟部長來說明一下為什麼我們會主張說要調高是因為那個部長知不知道衛福部公告今年的最低生活費是多少了解 要一萬多一萬五"},{"start":12765.053,"end":12782.674,"text":"那是最低生活費那我們目前是8,110元也就是大概只有一半而已那請問一下以現在這個物價高漲的部分如果我今天我老農我退休之後我只有8,110元那請問部長我該怎麼樣來生活呢因為事實上我一天大概只有270元要三餐"},{"start":12784.736,"end":12807.313,"text":"然後還要這個我的生活費還有另外就是說我的什麼水電啊相關的支出還有醫藥費年紀大了嘛很多醫藥的支出那請問270要怎麼過一天的生活我跟委員很簡單的幾個說明第一個說明就是說這個8110塊是一個我們政務體恤老農退休以後的一個福利的一個津貼給他那"},{"start":12808.374,"end":12834.877,"text":"第二個部分就是因為農業的這個職業他跟其他行業不一樣他沒有強制65歲一定退休那以現在的資訊來講65歲以上將近30萬人還在持續農業所以他也可以得到一些持續農業的所得那您關心的就是說如果他是一個孤獨的老人的部分這麼少的話那我相信還有其他的社會的福利制度包括醫療的包括其他的制度是可以來協助他的"},{"start":12835.417,"end":12849.945,"text":"對 但我剛提到嘛就以最低生活費就是270而已剛剛我講的這些他可能三餐都不能溫飽尤其您提到說他還有百分之還有30萬的人還在從事農業支出會不會是因為他如果不繼續從事農業他根本就沒有辦法溫飽"},{"start":12851.426,"end":12869.505,"text":"我跟委員報告從事農業他有他的一個使命感跟他的熱誠度所以其實有很多年紀大的這些農民願意持續農業他還是喜歡農業甚至有一些剛才有委員講的他每天會去尋那個田那個是他本身當然我們現在講你現在"},{"start":12871.067,"end":12899.664,"text":"部長講的是一個他自己主動願意的但我現在講的是說如果他是因為沒有辦法溫飽才8100億我如果再不務農的話我繼續做的話可能沒有辦法做到尤其是現在美國關稅因為在談判的過程中也希望說我們能夠也許會朝著零關稅這樣子的一部分去談如果是這樣的狀況之下可以說是雪上加霜他們可能就更難求得溫飽尤其是這還會影響什麼其實不是老農而已而是親農願不願意"},{"start":12901.224,"end":12927.055,"text":"因為他會發覺我老了之後結果我這麼一點的老容今天我可能沒有辦法溫飽所以我還不如現在就趕快轉業或者是做別的事情所以這對我們的糧食的自給率有很大的一個問題所以針對這個部分是不是能夠請農業部這邊可以算出一套我們要怎麼樣來去面對關稅的相關的問題"},{"start":12929.434,"end":12957.524,"text":"不過我想關稅的部分那現在因為已經接近到最後的部分那我還是確定我們農業部的立場在過去的談判過程中我們第一個確保糧食安全然後確保農民的受益這個我們是一定是堅守的部分再去談相關的這些議題所以關稅的部分我想等關稅所以部長在這邊會具體的承諾說絕對不會犧牲農民的權益我們不會犧牲農民權益是 所以說那如果真的要求零關稅怎麼辦"},{"start":12959.305,"end":12985.844,"text":"我覺得零關稅並不可怕有些零關稅是對我們產業反而有降低成本的部分然後有些零關稅可能是會做進口國的一些替代那不可否認的如果有一些產業受到一些短時間的衝擊的時候我們一定有支持系統但是我要跟委員報告我們在加入WTO的那一年也是大量的開放這個部分但是我想我們要對臺灣的農業是有信心的"},{"start":12986.144,"end":13006.236,"text":"我想不管是農業或是漁業啦其實針對這樣子的關稅到現在還沒有談定會不會零關稅這個部分其實大家都很憂慮啦所以我覺得農業部的保證跟農業部的作為是不是在真正來保護農民對於這個我們農民是很大的一個對 很大的一個信心這是我們的責任所以我們一定會去請部長一定要堅守喔"},{"start":13006.596,"end":13020.303,"text":"然後另外就是這次的這個提案本席有提到這個排付條款那剛剛也聽到部長說原則上您也會同意那請問一下就是自住屋的部分您大概同意大概會調升多少"},{"start":13021.021,"end":13046.625,"text":"不過我想基本上我們會用土地的公告限制當作一個參考我剛才也一直強調農民一輩子辛辛苦苦賺的錢去買一棟房子他不會輕易的把它賣掉因為他是要自住的他也不會賣掉他不會去賣掉他不會為了生活而賣掉去租房子所以我們一定要想辦法讓這些排骨的條款拉高他們現在坐在這個祖傳的房子裡"},{"start":13047.485,"end":13063.357,"text":"結果因為他價值變高結果他就沒有辦法就取消他的老農津貼所以讓他變成他是假富人但真貧窮那這個問題其實有蠻大的我相信我們未來提到立法院的版本應該可以讓委員們滿意"},{"start":13065.078,"end":13080.766,"text":"所以部長是針對這個部分你們已經把這個牌付的部分拉高到應該是大家的版本裡面大概都可以就幾乎大家的版本大概都可以涵蓋在裡面是嗎我們是朝這個方向啦我想部長就是您是守護這個我們農民農漁民的這個守護者還是希望說部長在所有的考量裡面要以農漁民來做這個最大的考量"},{"start":13092.071,"end":13117.947,"text":"那當然有很多的問題包括說包括說剛這個我們的題目就是我們的現在的法案的這個暫行條例也是希望說因為放著暫行就會讓人家覺得好像隨時會取消所以針對這個部分也是希望部長能夠就是我們經過剛剛法制也已經說明了嘛不會有問題所以也希望說把這個暫行的部分我也跟委員報告從今天的報告我其實已經非常正面的回應委員的回應而不是用呼嚨的方式"},{"start":13118.607,"end":13136.035,"text":"去談所以我們一直希望說大家一起努力把這樣子的一個對老農老農的照顧考慮到各種不同面向的一個和平性以後做一個最好的一個決定好謝謝謝謝部長好謝謝接下來請楊耀文來做選擇謝謝主席主席請一下"},{"start":13150.548,"end":13178.249,"text":"保險局局長保險局白局長局長好 局長我們今天雖然是修老人福利津貼暫行條例不過就是提高老人津貼這個本席是贊成的我有"},{"start":13180.306,"end":13204.992,"text":"因為這個問題所以所以講到我們的勞保問題還是非常嚴重那你現在是勞保局局長之前是保險司的司長所以大概相關的問題你也都了解那我這樣子講假如說假如到最後是定案把老農津貼增加到每個月一萬五千元"},{"start":13207.434,"end":13222.374,"text":"我先講就是增加到多少本席都沒有意見可是我們用這個一萬五千元來對比一下勞工勞退的部分"},{"start":13223.669,"end":13249.457,"text":"就是說113年底的資料呢勞保裡面的年金給付每個月領一萬五的人其實是超過五十萬那勞王今天現在領的人大概也差不多四五十萬啦就是多少五十三啊對 那就差不多啦就是說"},{"start":13251.037,"end":13271.097,"text":"而且这50个人呢平均的投保年资大概超过22年那一个是政府纯粹给的津贴一个是社会保险的给付这个对于很多劳工会不会很不公平局长你讲一下你的看法"},{"start":13277.085,"end":13301.81,"text":"是 報告委員喔勞工保險像委員剛才提它是一個社會保險所以在我們勞保的老年年金的金額它主要計算的取決標準是在它的投保年資還有平均投保薪資那當然年資越長投保薪資越長可以領的金額也會越高我知道 我現在是說你要不要就你的立場表態一下津貼的問題就是說"},{"start":13304.958,"end":13328.394,"text":"我有在講喔就是說勞保年金它本身是受給負責它是自己繳保費國家成立的一個社會保險我繳保費繳了22年可是呢我月領1500元以下的超過50萬"},{"start":13330.336,"end":13349.329,"text":"那津貼呢是政府的給予的福利給付那它的人數也大概超過五十萬那都是一萬五你有沒有什麼看法你覺得公不公平我直接這樣子問好了"},{"start":13350.86,"end":13376.708,"text":"那個 報告委員 勞保局我們這邊受託辦理老農津貼的一個發放那從老農津貼 剛才部長也有提到從照顧農民的角度以及兼具財政上面的一個可行性上面會就老農津貼的金額上面去做一些大家整體的考量那從局這邊 因為我們在受託業務上面我們會尊重農業部在相關金額上面不是 你當然要尊重 我現在不是在問這個問題我是說你會不會覺得勞工領得太少"},{"start":13378.734,"end":13397.448,"text":"對我們勞動體系來講其實能夠給勞工更好的照顧一定是我們勞動部會往這個方向去努力的那我看這個方向你們已經努力了十年啦你從保險師到現在你覺得有什麼可以努力的還是撥補就是你們唯一的努力"},{"start":13399.904,"end":13409.219,"text":"報告委員也非常謝謝委員會在上個禮拜我們審查通過了勞保條例六十六條跟六十九條那也謝謝委員因為委員非常重視我們勞保財務"},{"start":13410.185,"end":13438.218,"text":"在政府付最終支付責任委員也有提案還有將我們政府要撥補的這個都入法明定那另外也在條文上個禮拜也有特別提到要有定期的財務檢討機制外我們在委員會特別通過一個附帶決議就是委員所關心的除了撥補之外我們參考各國在年金改革的一個經驗他是多管旗下的一個開源節流的一個措施所以相關的措施部分的話局長你直接你直接跟我講"},{"start":13439.298,"end":13446.821,"text":"在國際上多館旗下的其中哪一館你覺得台灣是可以先行來做的"},{"start":13447.883,"end":13476.569,"text":"跟委員報告那一天的附帶決議其實裡面有提到我們長期勞動部這邊希望能夠再促進勞工能夠再續留職場或者是說可能那天有提到在附帶決議裡面希望我們能夠炒我們在相關的基金投資收益率或者是說在我們勞保局審核面有關納保面或給付面等等 我想他的面相非常的廣闊 續留職場是不是 續留職場是含蓄的講白話是不是就是延長退休年限"},{"start":13477.799,"end":13501.091,"text":"我們在之前有通過中高齡的就業專法中高齡 促進中高齡就業專法那我們會往那個角度其實這幾年勞動部在這一方面的努力我們也一直在往這邊做相關的一個我現在問的是法定退休年齡延後這可能就是因為委員這邊關心說國外的各種改革的方式那國外的方式其實都有很多種它不管是從納保層面的"},{"start":13502.015,"end":13526.934,"text":"或者是從給付層面的確都有那之前在國內我們也討論了非常的有一段時間大家在做交集那因為從不同的不管是從勞工層面或者從資方層面或者從政府財政上面或者是說不同的年齡層大家其實都還有不同的意見所以這部分大家也希望能夠在改革的過程中能夠確保勞工的生活保障可以不要受到影響之下那能夠大家再做一些及時廣益"},{"start":13527.679,"end":13555.167,"text":"就是一定會受到影響因為老容津貼已經提高到這樣子了那勞保一直改革沒有進度當然我們上個禮拜委員會把政府撥補的責任入法然後把最終責任給負責任入法那這個都不是改革的本身就是說老容津貼比較快因為他是國家直接"},{"start":13557.423,"end":13579.888,"text":"直接給付所以比較快就是透過修法就可以增加老農的收入保障他的生活老保不一樣老保你們假如說一直還是停留在這裡那遲早因為其實"},{"start":13582.821,"end":13601.321,"text":"坦白說這幾年的通貨膨脹真的非常嚴重領一萬五千元的勞工這麼少這麼多這個到底怎麼生活你們回去要看一看我今天並不想為難你我只是說藉由這個"},{"start":13605.686,"end":13612.976,"text":"這個法案然後連結過來讓你們知道勞工有多慘這樣子而已了解非常謝謝韋爺關心好 局長請回我再請一下農業部長部長我簡單跟你討論一個問題"},{"start":13622.573,"end":13649.591,"text":"部長好部長我剛剛有聽到你一直在說有關老王今天排布條款的修改問題那我們現在的條件有不動產的價值然後有個人所得的問題嗎有三個部分一個是所得的部分一個是土地跟房屋的一個價值的部分然後另外還有一個唯一自住房的一個扣除額的部分三個部分"},{"start":13650.251,"end":13679.078,"text":"那我就綜合所得總額不得超過50萬這個你們有沒有可能會改我剛才提到了就是我們所會來會提到送到立法院的版本裡面包括所得的部分包括排付財產的部分所得的部分你們會怎麼改因為所得的部分基本上過去都沒有根據CPI調整我們這一次會把它導入一次根據過去沒有累積的這些CPI一次到位"},{"start":13680.339,"end":13693.099,"text":"我簡單建議一下就是綜合所得的部分我們是不是要區分區分被動收入跟主動收入就是說因為"},{"start":13695.578,"end":13717.926,"text":"台灣邁入中高齡社會嘛那勞動部也一直在鼓勵中高齡再投入就業市場所以假如說可以把他的勞力所得扣除在外可能一方面也公平嘛另外一方面也可以提高他的就業意願"},{"start":13719.721,"end":13731.671,"text":"避免他為了要領津貼然後原本可以投入再投入職場的機會反而就沒有了對於個人跟國家都是一種損失"},{"start":13732.776,"end":13750.512,"text":"我跟委員報告我第一個要先說明這邊的所得的部分是指非農業的所得農業的所得都不會去處理都不會排掉非農業的所得的部分就是他有從事農業以外的兼職的工作對但是你的兼職的工作如果太多的話這等於說"},{"start":13751.775,"end":13781.163,"text":"那個本業跟兼業變成顛倒了啦但是我們在考慮這個部分的時候我們是用所有的所得嘛去做處理如果再分一些主動的被動的那那個變成更複雜變成個人中二所得的這個是個人中二所得嗎我是提供提供你們做參考啦我覺得就是他假如願意願意再再投入職場我們應該要鼓勵啦好好謝謝主席"},{"start":13781.843,"end":13786.504,"text":"好謝謝是不是請我們陳部長上臺委員好"},{"start":13810.851,"end":13831.977,"text":"部長事實上113年度的審計部總決算審核報告裡面也有談到這件事就是說事實上老農今天的制度本來是在尚未建立完整農民退休制度以前的過渡性措施不過大家都知道立法的債刑條例這個立法的初衷到現在這麼多年來"},{"start":13832.737,"end":13858.465,"text":"社會普遍的認知和期許都不再是這個樣子了那在這種狀況裡面我們都知道老農今天以逐漸的有補充性的支持轉變為大家期許他事而且事實現實上也是多數農民退休後的主要經濟依據那使得這個制度的角色跟功能產生了結構性的變化"},{"start":13859.085,"end":13871.174,"text":"可是事實上整個制度的設計都跟不上社會的期許和這個社會的認知的需要那在這種狀況裡面會發生幾件事當然這個審計部的這個報告裡面講到是說113年度相關的經費已經佔了這個就是老農津貼的給付已經佔了農業部將近四成的"},{"start":13883.624,"end":13898.358,"text":"這個支出了所以在這種狀況裡面未來50年的給付責任還要高達8111億顯示對政府中長期的財政已經形成了不可忽視的壓力但是呢我們現實來講它既然已經成為"},{"start":13901.481,"end":13921.247,"text":"這個多數農民實質的老年的經濟依靠的話在這種狀況裡面每個月8110元他的給付水準顯然是低於最低的生活費的標準那整個制度設計它不是保險制它是一個福利津貼所以沒有辦法符合"},{"start":13921.787,"end":13948.471,"text":"这个老年农民生活还有降低贫困风险的效果的期待更难以回应高龄化社会下农民实际的生活需求那我们知道说你们作为这个还有这个未来本来想要过度的这个退休除金制度要作为第二层嘛那要去逐步的承接老农津贴的功能但是我们都知道你们参与率太低了"},{"start":13949.935,"end":13968.349,"text":"具有資格的六成具資格的農民根本沒有納入這個體系所以導致你的制度沒有辦法銜接最終仍然還是要仰賴這個老農津貼的單一制度才承擔的退休保障的責任但是我們也知道現在青農 青農誰要領這個津貼青農都去參加職業工會吧"},{"start":13974.639,"end":13990.637,"text":"金融現在也不能領因為要65歲才能領我知道但他們現在要早一點去參加職業公會因為年資跟給付的問題投保金額的問題青龍不會把自己未來65歲以後的老年經濟安全寄放於8000多元或是未來12000或15000因為"},{"start":13993.22,"end":14021.042,"text":"在勞保裡面再怎麼算大家想方設法就是要去保勞保所以我們現在問題就是說其實就勞保今天跟農民退休這個儲金的制度來講說其實很明確的它的功能定位社會的期許社會的希望和認知跟你現在給付的結構和政策上落差太大了所以大家講的都很有道理可是大家都沒有要釐清它"},{"start":14021.502,"end":14046.392,"text":"他現在整個制度的設計到底是什麼屬性我覺得今天整個早上諮詢都是沒有去談說這個津貼他到底是什麼屬性不是嗎所以我跟委員報告就是在整個農民老農津貼的部分我們的定位是在一個福利的一個津貼的一個給付的一個作為但是不要忘了他社會的期待他已經不再是這樣子的"},{"start":14049.241,"end":14069.003,"text":"因為公務預算就是這麼有限然後能給的就這麼少可是社會對他依賴的程度老農對他依賴的程度對他的期待所以才會有大家不斷的要加碼然後一方面砍中央的預算到地方去啊但一方面又要你幾戶更多啊"},{"start":14070.287,"end":14092.53,"text":"所以我其實我是講說制度其實應該要好好的討論但是我知道制度無法變革啦制度一變革就牽扯到選票啦選票就牽扯到這個每個政黨的政黨利益還有個別候選人的利益所以我就不談了但我現在跟你討論的是我要希望你看的是農民職業病啦"},{"start":14093.17,"end":14116.005,"text":"農民職業病這個問題可能會更大我們希望很務實的來討論因為2023年國衛院曾經有一個研究指出從勞保和健保資料庫中去篩選出667種可能跟農民職業相關的傷害和疾病再將參加農民健康保險農民跟一般民眾去進行分析"},{"start":14116.906,"end":14139.632,"text":"藉此去找出農民比較顯著的經常罹患的疾病的類型那研究的結果顯示一共有13種疾病在農民族群中具有比較高的發生率那相關成果也給你們參考了那其實你們在植栽農民的植栽保險制度裡面你們的第9條也列了相關的一些很明顯就直接認定是"},{"start":14141.353,"end":14155.207,"text":"農業植栽的疾病在裡面的比如說已經很確定的農業行為跟致病的機制跟罹病的結果之關聯已經有高度的相關而且可能是因果的包括黴菌型角膜潰瘍 農藥中毒這個溝端螺旋體病這個都很清楚了"},{"start":14163.095,"end":14188.567,"text":"但是還有需要進一步釐清但高度疑似跟農業相關的疾病但是難以直接判定直接相關和因果但是可以從農業環境和工作型態中來推論其風險的高低的比如說人畜共通傳染病斑診三行熱還有角膜結膜炎大概是有這一方面的問題"},{"start":14189.827,"end":14218.831,"text":"但是還有一種像是肌肉骨骼跟關節疾病肌肉骨骼跟關節疾病它高盛行率在你們投保的這些農民裡面高盛行率但是鑑定困難但是研究也有顯示農民較一般人更容易罹患膝關節炎 髖關節炎病骨前滑囊炎但是"},{"start":14220.882,"end":14243.683,"text":"骨骼跟結地組織的疾病常跟自然老化交織職業成因鑑定是相對困難所以對此研究資料已經交給中華民國環境職業醫學會後續將希望由專科醫師進行分析逐步的去建立農民職業病災害的判斷指引"},{"start":14244.844,"end":14269.593,"text":"那另外一項就是這個農藥的暴露風險跟癌症風險這個自然不在話下你們第九條裡面有一些也是農藥致癌的那當然最明顯是皮膚癌但是農民在工作中長期暴露於多項致癌因子包括高溫暗紫外線農機具的柴油跟廢氣土壤中的結晶型的二氧化矽還有農藥那大家都知道"},{"start":14270.433,"end":14286.185,"text":"紫外線跟柴油廢棄還有結晶型二氧化矽都被IARC列為一級致癌物一級致癌物但是我們比較近10年農民跟一般民眾的罹癌的資料後已經發現了"},{"start":14287.728,"end":14306.092,"text":"不分性別 農民罹患非黑色素皮膚癌的機率明顯高男性農民常出現口腔癌 食道癌 肝癌這個可能跟生活習慣也有相關可是生活習慣也有可能是因為他的經濟行為導致的需求或是減壓來的"},{"start":14311.073,"end":14334.97,"text":"那農民罹患淋巴性白血病和非合結菌是淋巴流的機率也比較高但是治病的基準還需要去研究但是我們是希望你們從作物類型出發的田野調查釐清真正的疾病的來源去進一步的確認疾病跟農業行為的關係在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":14339.514,"end":14352.971,"text":"國衛院 我們衛福部國衛院已經展開了下鄉調查在提供健康檢查跟衛教服務的同時我們國衛院要去蒐集第一手的疾病跟暴露的資料"},{"start":14354.092,"end":14378.919,"text":"初期他們也鎖定栽培面積比較大的稻米和果樹的產區而且屏東的萬丹、枋寮地區針對芒果、蓮霧、紅豆的作物去深入的探討生產方式跟農民離病的關聯性研究也已經初步的確認了農民在多項疾病上具有顯著的職業風險"},{"start":14381.3,"end":14404.305,"text":"但是呢還需要結合大多數更多的數據的大數據分析還有實地的田野調查才能夠釐清作物然後用藥曝露疾病之間的因果關係才能夠完善你農民職業病認定的還有這個預防政策的科學基礎啦所以我要問你部長"},{"start":14406.348,"end":14411.783,"text":"112年我們國衛院做了這一份報告以後你們後續有什麼作為"},{"start":14414.658,"end":14436.426,"text":"我跟委員報告我們在做職業災害處理因為農業的人的操作跟疾病如果有直接關係的話我們就直接正面表列對啊你第9條有啦然後另外有一個非常重要的就是沒有列在正面表列的我們就是用那個專業醫師的檢定如果認為他是跟這個職業是有關的我們直接就可以處理了"},{"start":14437.066,"end":14460.434,"text":"然後您剛才講的國衛院的相關資料我們收集了以後如果能夠確認的我們就擺入我們的正面像您剛才講的有一些關節囊的部分我們就擺入了那我告訴你一個數據根據統計近三年農民依據你們已經正面表列了叫做第九條嘛請領職業案件前三名第一名是中暑熱季暖暗熱說來節嘛"},{"start":14462.194,"end":14474.322,"text":"14件第二名樣蟲病10件第三名溝端螺旋病體7件第四名農藥中毒7件近三年加起來37件好結果還需要職業這個災病"},{"start":14477.704,"end":14505.838,"text":"专科医师去认定的就是适用第九支医条的腰椎 椎间盘突出等腰椎患者12件板肌指 身肌腱断裂碗隧道症候群的12件肩部旋转肌肌腱破裂旋转肌袖症症候群5件膝关节 骨关节炎还有其他关节炎的5件眼睛疾病2件脑心血管疾病1件肺引球菌病1件三年一共38件"},{"start":14507.099,"end":14531.858,"text":"我現在要說的是需要再進一步去還要認定英國的38件你們正面表列的只有37件我們的意思是說這樣子好了我先講了在農業現場的健康檢查的時候我們都知道其實老農跟青農不一樣老農其實對於保健知識職業病的預防他顯然他的專業還有專注"},{"start":14534.84,"end":14557.917,"text":"知識 智能其實相對是比青農不如的在這種狀況裡面可是我們都知道說農民植栽保險開辦以來到110年為止傷病幾副案件達到4832件為歷年最高在這種狀況裡面各種職業病的案件怎麼分布不僅關係到制度的檢討還攸關到未來的預防"},{"start":14560.319,"end":14586.009,"text":"我們都知道降低職災始終是預防更勝於給付和補償但是你必須要透過了解農業環境工作型態作物類型或地區差異去進行分析還更需要大量的數據去支持才能更精準更有效的預防和宣導但是你剛剛講的這三年裡面農民職業災害保險當中職業傷病跟職業病的核定率"},{"start":14586.994,"end":14592.217,"text":"可能不是很高然後對於這個核定的結果跟你們去檢視現行的審查標準跟實務運作有沒有存在著審查的這個嚴格影響農民實際的保障情形第一個第二個就是我剛才講的"},{"start":14603.763,"end":14624.402,"text":"九之一條就是不是在正面表列的還需要去認定的都已經大過於第九條了已經有沒有可能是沒有辦法實質的完整的去反映農民實際的健康風險的也就是說你正面表列的項目已經不足以不夠了"},{"start":14626.068,"end":14647.724,"text":"我們知道健康檢查能夠及早發現疾病但對高齡的老農來講尤其很重要但大多數的老農也沒有定期健檢的習慣我們應該要比照老保你知道老保的僱主在剛開始一進入職場前都必須去做基礎的體格檢查"},{"start":14648.544,"end":14665.74,"text":"那我們需不需要對老農的健康把關建立一個農民健康資料庫使農民在長時間勞動後如果罹患了慢性疾病仍然有發病前的健康資料作為佐證來有利於職業病的鑑定他沒有健檢的習慣當它發生的時候難以判斷因果"},{"start":14668.843,"end":14673.765,"text":"然後在這種狀況裡面你難以證明因果的時候你其實也沒有大數據通通都沒有有沒有可能我們會妨礙因為缺少這個機制會妨礙後續的職業病的認定和診斷有沒有可能做對農民有基礎的健康的檢查納入農民職災保險的配套措施或是獎勵措施建立一個全國農民的健康基礎資料庫有沒有可能應該要這麼做"},{"start":14698.175,"end":14698.816,"text":"如果你要做職業傷病的預防的確是需要這樣子"},{"start":14704.066,"end":14729.076,"text":"我想非常謝謝委員的一個建議跟提醒那很簡單的說明第一個部分就是正面表列的部分大概大概51然後個別去個案去處理的這個部分大概48%那我們現在的處理方式就是把沒有列入正面表列的但是已經在這個個別的處理發現說他有正相關的我們就會滾動到正面表列的部分在第一個部分我們會去加強"},{"start":14729.724,"end":14755.286,"text":"第二個部分就是 正相關就要滾動進去第九條那很不錯喔但是你沒有基礎檢查了那個比較了基礎第二個部分就是我也曾經跟同仁討論就是說要不要開辦一個我們農民的健康健康檢查的一個制度那後來我深入了解以後那個知識體大容我很多細部在牽扯到後面的經費的支出"},{"start":14755.766,"end":14764.509,"text":"沒有沒有 我們健保署已經把幾歲以上的基礎檢查都有cover掉了我們要排掉我是說整合進來你們應該編列一筆給青農他從農以前進入職場前的基礎體這個健康檢查從農的 然後可能在10年以後再一個但是比照健保署40歲50歲以後你的檢查項目不一樣那整合健保署的補助"},{"start":14783.776,"end":14796.221,"text":"健保署已經有了基礎檢查那我們在加強職業傷病的預防上再加含哪些項目再放進去那需要多少錢要估進去有了這一些基礎數據你才能夠確認說我是因為從容而發生的職業傷病"},{"start":14801.347,"end":14816.971,"text":"我想非常謝謝委員的建議那我們也曾經設也應該後續會去處理就是說只要你加入退休儲物金在年輕的部分我就有一個健康檢查的一個系統然後不同的年紀他的檢查項目可能會不一樣那這個部分我想我們再會設計因為這現在經費的編列"},{"start":14819.292,"end":14846.318,"text":"你去想一下因為我們希望避免老農誤以為說我生理的病痛就是年紀大了嘛所以並不是沒有想過是職業病大家就覺得理所當然我年紀大了生理耗損是應該的可是如果我們真的要做農民的職業傷病的給付這個要保險那麼我們就給他做好好好的做完整的做配套都要進來我的意思是這樣子我知道了解了解謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":14848.058,"end":14875.638,"text":"那接下來請蘇清泉委員那委員會這邊通告蘇清泉委員巡打結束之後休息十分鐘謝謝謝謝主席那我請部長來 請部長各位老保局局長來 白局長柏中辛苦啦你小到年輕 讚"},{"start":14877.697,"end":14886.523,"text":"你說什麼 我說真的 我問你三個問題來 第一個問題就是有農民的觀念說他現在產殼病有三問題 四問題 五問題要做親農 做完之後是不是有災害災害就親農去申請這樣他這個地主這個老農"},{"start":14904.825,"end":14914.07,"text":"農保都要沒了 農保的65歲以上應該不會這樣子嘛有啊 他們就沒有了清朝就把他幹掉啦"},{"start":14921.382,"end":14950.502,"text":"這如果這樣 你這樣搶你青草我看這農保聯會不會被你割走我現在沒有在處理這個區塊你也知道這個區塊是過去這些農民他退休一遙然後他把這個低租給農民這是我們鼓勵的部分你就是在鼓勵這個農民只要土地出租的話他的農民退休途徑是可以維持的嘛這個就被你們清掉囉農保的是我們沒有去清啦"},{"start":14952.304,"end":14964.738,"text":"65歲以上沒有 所謂審計部要求我們清的我們才會去處理啦另外土地給做建光墊建光墊之後 那塊塊就不是農地了嘛"},{"start":14966.994,"end":14982.128,"text":"他的農民生活也破掉了不是 種光電的部分你如果說農地變更從農地變為非農地的時候那當然他沒有農地就是會處理但是你如果農許的話有沒有 都沒有問題啊再來就是他的土地現在本來要工業區裡面變工業區的地 他也沒有因為他的地幕已經改了嘛"},{"start":14992.085,"end":15008.952,"text":"所以這你們在清查的時候要很小心我們非常小心你們農保的老農老漁領津貼的現在本來從七八十萬現在已經掉到剩下五十來萬不是 那個是因為年紀大了 凋零往生 凋零再來就是這個青農他們"},{"start":15013.989,"end":15022.032,"text":"不太敢說寄望於65歲以後捏這個老農津貼捏這個就我們死了所以大家都去做第二套路所以大家都有勞保的身份嘛所以你們這裡的負擔會越來越少你們這裡的人會越來越少我想前陣子就比40幾萬、30幾萬跟我的反省部不一樣就有"},{"start":15035.782,"end":15052.674,"text":"不會啦 我跟委員報告特別是在農民退休儲金很多委員的建議就是說我們一些勞保的固定雇主的部分我們也開放他可以領退休儲金那這樣的方式的話能夠鼓勵這些他來繼續從事農業"},{"start":15054.855,"end":15075.374,"text":"你說的農保的儲金這是另外一個意思嗎不是農保的儲金是他現在加老保他是用一定僱主的這些老保的這些家保人他如果有從事農業的行為的時候我們可以讓他申請我們的農退儲金這樣的話他退休照樣有保障"},{"start":15077.228,"end":15083.461,"text":"會請你們的人來我辦公室大家就收拾一下這個是委員提出來的建議啦你這個齁 你這個都亂說一年了我說你沒亂說這是委員建議我們也認同的喔"},{"start":15088.576,"end":15098.442,"text":"九龍尾啊 九龍尾啊一定僱主的老寶老龍 老魚 金 鐵 爪 壁 木 木 碗的都被你衝到後面去了這要很誠實的我們在這裡不會把原來的今天拿掉我們來討論一下我也要跟盧副局討論一下我們都衝衝我一定要去我們這裡都不用第二個問題"},{"start":15109.355,"end":15119.864,"text":"現在農民 像去年 山蘇有颱風 再來是丹納斯颱風 再來洋流颱風 接著接著接著就像我們部長說的 極端氣候所以這些農民 都頭頭雪扁烏龜都在吃頭農 老農 老漁的津貼 是在幫他們補填嘛這就是想去嘛"},{"start":15133.815,"end":15139.041,"text":"農業的收入這邊就沒有了你現在這是最起碼讓他們可以支撐你忘記說每天可以看餐桌看餐盒我們家現在還在收拾我們家現在還有水瓶還有 還有 還有香蕉有很多但是我們如果"},{"start":15152.498,"end":15159.803,"text":"有老農津貼要九十多個月過去我們現在說沒辦法 都在做事喔我們家也要做事 但是都沒家人領 也沒領所以我跟我說農業部不錯喔你這樣一直衝 一直衝到最後都一樣在做事但是沒辦法 老農津貼的越來越多"},{"start":15173.613,"end":15195.692,"text":"所以你在講的那個財政負擔我看這是沒那麼嚴重反省越來越少了我了解但是我們現在我跟你講這一陣子這幾年來農業的人口結構剛好在轉型老農的退的速度大概一年大概1萬5左右1萬4 1萬5左右然後新進的話還不到1萬"},{"start":15199.535,"end":15215.159,"text":"進的比較少啦 退的比較多啦但是他最後會達到一個平衡點所以我們怎麼樣去鼓勵年輕人趕快進來去做一個比較有效的平衡啦所以不會說進來 你以後那個金錢在那邊輸多少錢你是要叫他 叫他怕死喔我們現在設計的這個農民退休儲金他如果補30年跟勞保一樣補30年他的領的會比勞保的還多"},{"start":15227.979,"end":15240.03,"text":"我這邊有資料啦就是後續就是領三萬如果三十年三萬九千三百六十年我上次在大院會總質詢有跟你報告的就是你現在的榮損都用成本的20%來當榮損當補助嘛這你也相信你說要調整"},{"start":15244.494,"end":15265.241,"text":"那是要調整嗎我們有調嘛 有調啦有調對 明年就公佈了調兩百塊調五百塊這樣喔我們不是用錢花的我們會精算它的成本然後另外重複受一年重複受影響的多年級作物我們有加碼"},{"start":15266.345,"end":15282.791,"text":"這剛才你有說 你說他高雷去保養保生的保險 保產險有27個樣品嘛 44個產品嘛28個品項 四張保單保的 保了個位數的紅來的啦 什麼都不可以保嘛不貴也不可以保是誘因不夠 補助不夠 還是保一保到不夠不完這個保養公司 一個比一個還要多一億啦產險公司這要多一億啦"},{"start":15295.223,"end":15300.544,"text":"所以我前幾天跟卓院長說你那些農金屬這麼用這麼好這麼有錢就幫你補就好了這些農民是你的子民不然你會有300萬人在從事農藝務這些人他們在做的工作是假的像我們屏東是假的 你是假的你也給他保險讓他遇到災害的時候不要血本無歸真的是會一剎頭 跳牢"},{"start":15324.108,"end":15325.349,"text":"總預算先審我們就很多事情都能夠處理啦所以"},{"start":15347.882,"end":15372.852,"text":"再來前面的題目 要講了我們生活上 你說台北 台中 屏東都15000元一條 最少所以我拿的版本 15000元你就會覺得 喔 給1000元 給幾億 多幾億我想 到時候會領的人會越來越少沒有像你講的那麼多 而且"},{"start":15374.356,"end":15397.975,"text":"你要講的不是菜市場在化假我們八千、一萬、萬千,我們在化所以你連那個老鵝、老鵬、老蝙蝠的就要安定的時候都七萬五千、四萬所以保證你們做好好的考量,好好的研究以這個為目標啦那大家可以來協商,這樣好不好"},{"start":15401.75,"end":15426.259,"text":"我想額度提高是大家的共識那提高到多少錢一定是看我們的財政負擔那也不會像委員說的以後我們的負擔會越來越少相對的就是說我們很努力讓年輕人進來透過退休儲金去保障他的退休保障那這個部分我想最後還會看到他的橫平性那另外8110如果拉到15000的話"},{"start":15427.959,"end":15444.489,"text":"那將近拉了快一倍啦那這個考慮到其他的公平性的問題這個我想我們都要去考量因為我們當然沒有說我農業部一定是希望農民津貼是一個很好的一個制度但是從行政院的角度從行政團隊的角度我們要考慮其他的社福屋"},{"start":15445.93,"end":15468.486,"text":"53萬人8100多是差不多490幾億如果用1萬5的話差不多就將近900億而且他最低所得利用最低所得的省但是老農他退休以後還有將近30萬人是在從事農業他有其他的所得嘛然後他也有同他的子女在照顧嘛他不是唯一透過這811來生活的你這樣說是倒過話什麼他要他還"},{"start":15472.449,"end":15494.643,"text":"七十個八十個 還要去求求看那些老闆在那裡做農那是國福里莊 他們不夠生活你還要動作說他還在那裡減財我都生病了我想我們這一期一個基本的政府提供給農民退休以後的一個福利的一個津貼嘛那相對的這個部分我想我們一起努力啦看看怎麼樣去處理好 部長 農糧署的來研究一下好不好"},{"start":15504.419,"end":15519.083,"text":"等一下私底下找書委員報到一下不過要跟書委員講一下這個我們通過之後如果預算你們還不審的話新增的是不能動的提醒一下 好休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":16206.55,"end":16213.834,"text":"好 我們會議繼續 接下來請邱志偉委員來做詢問好 謝謝農業部陳部長"},{"start":16238.917,"end":16266.516,"text":"報告我都想誰看我想這個今天做調整他是有他的必要性也有他的急迫性你覺得怎麼樣必要性跟急迫性就是因為有必要性跟他的急迫性所以在這次看委員的版本其實我們也把我們的版本送到行政院審核了是那現在待院會通過就可以 針對第二條第四條跟第七條大多數委員都是針對這三條做調整這也是修改的重點"},{"start":16267.516,"end":16288.044,"text":"就是說你的額度要怎麼去調整包括你牌覆要怎麼牌覆門檻要怎麼調整這是大概是今天討論的重點那我先請教一下部長那行政院審議中對不對最快什麼時候會送到立法院呢我想這個法案啊應當是有行政院版本做併案審查才會比較客觀嘛"},{"start":16289.324,"end":16304.352,"text":"大概什麼時候會送立法院我想整個行政院在法制作業大概也完成了現在就是再通過院會以後就能夠送到立法院來我想我們會盡快的跟行政院建議就是說盡快的排入院會"},{"start":16305.433,"end":16333.932,"text":"但今天不可能的嘛這個就是我回去還是跟行政院溝通希望能夠盡快因為院會本身 院會本身的排定因為還有很多很多議案嘛所以我想是不是我們在跟行政院溝通都還沒有覆尾啊對所以可見的是大概這個會期你這個從今天法律上調整因為你院本還沒進來對所以相關的討論大概會等到下個會期嘛最快"},{"start":16334.812,"end":16353.205,"text":"我們是希望在這個會期能夠處理不過不管怎麼樣就算通過了以後如果總預算沒有進到進到討論跟決定的時候就算通過也沒錢相對應的預算這個規模已經確定了嗎因為今天這個法律還沒有調整還沒有訂單那你預算規模是多少你還不知道啊"},{"start":16353.305,"end":16374.67,"text":"所以現在沒有 現在目前本身的規模的部分我們都要用爭取其他的額外的經費那整個總預算如果沒有過的話所有的預備金什麼東西都不能動所以這個部分 預備金 災害準備金都不能動新興計畫如果可以 新興計畫也不能動那你要報立法院同意可以"},{"start":16375.925,"end":16389.91,"text":"新計畫的暴利法院同意對 那基本上本質上我們還是希望說總預算能夠經常費用他是沒有辦法你是按照去年的額度對所以你這個應該是用新興計畫新興計畫的部分 然後"},{"start":16391.911,"end":16409.582,"text":"這個計畫是可以報立法院同意這個是原來的計畫但是經費增加嘛經費增加的話 增加的經費也不能動嘛然後你如果要向行政院提出額外的經費傾徵的時候那總預算沒過的話什麼都不能談啊所以我們還是希望立法院所以這看起來不像是這個新興計畫嘛"},{"start":16410.743,"end":16428.778,"text":"就是說延續性的計畫延續的經費增加增加額度嘛也不能動也不能動之增加額度也只能針對這個去年度的額度對 去年度的額度嘛所以我們還是希望說在討論這個的時候也希望說這關係到這個全國農民的權益啊為什麼我很難想像為什麼重要的"},{"start":16430.105,"end":16456.692,"text":"這從來沒有那麼晚復違過而且院長還沒有來報告過對這是十幾年來我在立法院從來沒看過這種狀況對 這也是我剛才跟很多委員講我們一方面在討論說希望能夠有更多的經費支持農民但是另一方面預算都不省的時候我們很多東西是不能做的是啊 那這個你立法通過這個預算沒有辦法省沒有辦法通過你也只能用去對 也是用舊的部分"},{"start":16461.305,"end":16479.577,"text":"這個狀況我覺得很憂心這種對國家的制度完全是漠視甚至是破壞我覺得是非常對國家的制度的破壞對人民福祉的傷害我想這個是不可我認為是不可原諒"},{"start":16481.264,"end":16506.725,"text":"不可原諒因為這些錢都是用在這個人民身上就是國家建設上面對 以農業部的立場我們的經費如果委員有任何意見我們都很樂意去進行討論跟溝通但是連這個機會都沒有是 所以我們這個針對今天主要的兩個針點就是說你這個額度的調整額度的調整就一定要按照這個在現行的調整機制之下看看這個其中的檢討時間點放在哪裡"},{"start":16510.208,"end":16530.69,"text":"檢討的依據是什麼這個部分這個部裡面的看法是怎麼樣我們這樣子因為現在本來是每四年的CPI調整一次但是我們考量到這幾年來的CPI的浮動性蠻不確定性蠻高的所以我們建議說就是四年裡面有一個其中的一個檢討機制大概定在兩年就去檢視一次"},{"start":16531.21,"end":16553.345,"text":"然後檢視的時候看這個CPI如果CPI如果達到一個3到5%的時候我們就應該馬上啟動因為3%是大家可以忍受的如果超過3%以上可能對於整個的一個穩定生活的穩定有影響那如果我換個角度來看你不要設期中你就把整個檢討時程把四年縮成兩年"},{"start":16555.807,"end":16583.157,"text":"我想我們原來的設計還是四年然後另外如果說兩年的時候又要一個門檻的時候那很有可能一個情形如果他四年是4%然後前面兩年是3%調了嘛那後面1%以現在我們設計還可以調但是以後就不能調了如果說沒兩年就不能調那你期中檢考的這個依據是什麼大概CPICPI我們是期待3%到5%然後到時候在委員這邊看怎麼討論達到一個比較好的"},{"start":16585.726,"end":16609.447,"text":"所以這個抱怨的版本是大概3%到5%對那另外這個牌付的部分也是大家所關心的那怎麼樣來調整這個牌付的相關的規定牌付的部分分為三個部分第一個部分是所得的部分現在是50萬那因為過去沒有隨著CPI調整所以我們這次希望一次到位大概有將近16%可以調整"},{"start":16610.908,"end":16638.308,"text":"那這樣的話第一個把所得就處理了那另外一個是財產的部分那財產這部分大部分是根據土地公告限制那過去從100年開始也一直都沒有100年都沒有調整那現在已經累積了大概百分之六十幾的部分那我們也希望說他一併能夠調整包括我們的自用住宅的部分那如果按照你這樣說明我了解如果這個按照國民黨提案到一萬五你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":16639.406,"end":16668.317,"text":"我覺得以財政負擔以公平性還有以其他的社福基金的橫平性來講還有他調高的一次性調高的那個比例我都覺得不太適合最重要的是財政負擔的部分大概每條1000塊就會增加63億所以你如果到15000現行是8550那現行是大概一年經費大概不到30億那你如果按照這個國民黨版本是要15000要增加到多少"},{"start":16668.777,"end":16672.528,"text":"大概437億 哇增加幾倍多囉"},{"start":16675.089,"end":16699.816,"text":"那你再增加你如果按照今年度的這個老農今天的這個我們現在目前發的老農今天就502億了我們現在一年大概就是500多億了如果再增加到15000的時候又增加了400多億那加起來就將近900億那整個農業部的預算裡面現在目前依法律義務支出的將近有800億一定排擠這一定排擠所以"},{"start":16701.576,"end":16722.65,"text":"做這個東西我們還有很多配套的作為調的機制要建立起來建立起來要有一個公平性對 這個也是我們希望說設計一個比較長久的一個製作性的部分建築到公平性 對不是漫天喊價漫天喊價我覺得太不科學也太不理性對 所以我們希望說有一個比較好的一個制度我非常準時的謝謝"},{"start":16725.41,"end":16726.131,"text":"謝謝邱委員的準時 謝謝部長"},{"start":16745.231,"end":16768.54,"text":"感謝主席 那我們在場的委員先進 業協政府機關市長 官員會長 共和夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們農業部陳部長衛福部社保司的陳副司長勞動部勞工局的勞保局的白局長以及主計總署的邱專維主計總署邱專維委員好保證你好"},{"start":16769.142,"end":16775.167,"text":"今天我們看到這個勞動電廠我們看一下我現在下概清楚了勞動電廠的配合應該符合現況而且我們部分職業不管是勞工一般的國民還是我們的農民都要加強退休保養請問在庭市委都聽到有贊成都支持嗎我剛剛講的這個標題好像你們還沒進入狀況我說我們部分職業應該全面強化退休保養你們都認同嗎"},{"start":16794.324,"end":16809.305,"text":"認同嘛 也支持啦農業的部分我們就在處理啦對對對 所以我說一千年以模範生嘛往下看 來這個我們老農今天大家都問假啦目前啦 咱以生活必須啊我想前面很多委員都說別人不要講啦 就是台灣性來講"},{"start":16809.966,"end":16829.615,"text":"一萬五千歐這是一個一個人的生活所需所以現在農業部針對我們老農電廠實在是不要說不可以去啦不可以去也去很多啊所以是不是這個條件考慮到跟我們相關的相關費都要保有這個保存考慮在內嗎我們我們有參考這樣子一個一個比例對"},{"start":16831.299,"end":16859.826,"text":"所以你們也思考到這個點不是只有考量物價接下來我們國保年金我們衛福部是不是目前我們沒有參加各種職業保險的民眾他就選擇國民年金是這樣嗎但是要跟部長和局長說其實很多農民他參加很久的農保但是到了接近晚年的時候他的農地就沒有了所以他就被農保排除所以他就跑到國保來了部長知道有這個情況嗎"},{"start":16861.485,"end":16878.112,"text":"了解喔 有時候知道有這個很多是農民結果招來國保的好 國保現在有到月齡有不到4000了嗎有 如果我們也把它考慮到這些部分有機會有能力有沒有人把樓地板的往上調你支持嗎"},{"start":16880.017,"end":16902.613,"text":"如果我們政府的財政負擔是可以的話那原則上以這些弱勢的民眾來講我大概初估私下了解一下如果老農今天8000到10000大概要編103億差不多吧如果國保年金要通通拉到樓地板拉到5000的話聽說要大概250億差不多吧好來大家聽好"},{"start":16908.258,"end":16928.843,"text":"農民如果要提到1萬國保要提到5000這都很基本的總共加起來103加254357億我的算數沒有錯那請教部長你知不知道這一次國眾主導的年金反年金改革公教退休人員未來10年國家可能要增加3600億是不是有聽說這個數字"},{"start":16930.586,"end":16943.794,"text":"有喔 平均一年要三百六十億啦委員長不夠五十萬的退休公告領完我們政府未來十年一年要給三百六十億我想說這三百五十七億拿來照顧農民 照顧我們的國保部長你支持不支持"},{"start":16944.795,"end":16965.077,"text":"拿357億來照顧國保年金跟老農津貼不過我想我們針對農民津貼的部分我想我們會根據我們希望提高的額度跟所有的經費我希望是受到政府的支持是 所以你也不反對其他人也增加農民要提款 其他也要提款有支持嗎不是說包括比農民還要少"},{"start":16966.699,"end":16987.538,"text":"我想以農業部的立場就是要考慮到跟八大社福基金的和民性嘛是的 所以呢因為比老農今天還少的就是國保年金我們希望最弱勢的往上提包括我們農民該行後往下看所以我們來問陳部長所以其實目前我們的排富呢其實都是算這個五百萬其實你知道在農村地區啊"},{"start":16988.398,"end":17002.503,"text":"農地是不說該多少但是如果說農船所在的建地其實它的地價會調整所以其實有些老人家退了他還是務農但是因為他的地價上漲被排除 有沒有這種情況有那我們希望把它合理調整 支持嗎"},{"start":17003.806,"end":17021.162,"text":"我們現在剛剛的報告也是朝這個方向在做很好謝謝好那我們今天的訴求大概到這裡往下看來那所以如果說部長按照如果我們今天老農津貼這些條例按照農業部報行政院送來這裡通過明年來得及實施嗎"},{"start":17023.311,"end":17042.289,"text":"明年要不要實施有沒有預算一個前提就是我們的總預算要進到實質審查以後總預算通過以後然後我們再根據相關的規定去做請證照說啦其實就算今年修法通過明年應該來不及因為後年嘛"},{"start":17042.389,"end":17067.01,"text":"因為要在會計年度前四個月前提出嘛所以說如果我們這個統計要賺什麼也是要後年賺的每年拿出來嘛是不是這樣我們是期待用向行政院爭取那個專案的一個請證的一個那要立法院同意嘛不過這個沒有這個基本上就是預算如果如果通過因為預算沒有通過的時候那相對的所有的這些二倍金或是災害準備金來我們請一下邱專委邱專委來得及嗎"},{"start":17068.379,"end":17092.08,"text":"今年我們通過這個條例如果有調升的話明年預算現在連審都還沒審是不是後年才來得及報告委員其實115年度的預算因為目前還沒有真正付為討論所以可以來得及所以我們明年再審這個年度預算反而比較好你是這個意思嗎"},{"start":17093.897,"end":17111.392,"text":"還是說我們這個通過了後年可以編入後年度的預算還是說連今年都 連明年都還沒審後年都不用想了到底是哪一種其實應該要搭配法案它到底是什麼時候生效那如果法案審過了明年生效什麼時候可以開始實施"},{"start":17113.174,"end":17127.97,"text":"明年生效的話因為好了我好像問錯人了請休息往下一頁所以我還是覺得贊成陳部長的我們今年審明年度如果可以趕快審過才有機會不然的話連明年度不要說了連後年度都很難"},{"start":17128.55,"end":17149.171,"text":"對我簡單的講就是我們大家都有共識通過這個法案會增加的時候所需的經費如果總預算不通過的話什麼都不用談很好就這句話總預算不通過什麼都不用講來最後我們請教一下我們的那個一點點時間請教一下我們那個社保師社保師你的名字很好台語又很厲害不是K高 曾惠好那個曾惠副市長來"},{"start":17151.113,"end":17172.184,"text":"就是我們的勞保年是救治勞退勞退的救治是不是有人已經超15年加上15年已經拿到45個基數現在還沒退休的那請問這些人這個是問對人的嘛應該是問我是問剛剛是問什麼我是問勞保局吧我叫錯人了對不起應該因為你的名字太好記了應該問白局長 抱歉"},{"start":17176.584,"end":17202.834,"text":"這個這樣的話是不是我們應該這樣的人有沒有還在職場上有他接下來的到退休之前他的領的薪水想要增加有沒有可能他已經救治啦都放在雇主那裡啊退休的時候把雇主的這些結清而已嘛可不可以他現在跟雇主商量好願意讓他帶到我們新制然後他在新制可以每個月存6%自體有沒有覺得這樣可以考慮"},{"start":17204.417,"end":17219.561,"text":"那個委員剛才提到的就是提高勞工的一個退休保障我想這個是大家都想努力的方向勞動部也會往這樣的方向來演繹那委員提的這個建議我會待會去請我們勞動部這邊來做你覺得如果擴大勞退自體的部分有沒有幫助我們勞工的退休保障增加"},{"start":17220.241,"end":17245.269,"text":"擴大勞工自體對勞工的生活保障是會有幫助好所以我最後結論主席站起來了所以是不是請研議救治勞退基數以滿為尚未退休的勞工他的救治勞退結清經僱主同意協議後全數轉入新制的大水庫剩餘的工作年資得以自體勞退增加其自修保障這個部分是不是可以一個月內跟我們勞動部回去一下提出一個報告是好可以謝謝部長謝謝局長謝謝副市長謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝"},{"start":17250.762,"end":17264.11,"text":"好 各位請回 謝謝接下來請黃修煌委員來做詢問謝謝主席 我們請部長來 有請陳部長"},{"start":17272.832,"end":17290.747,"text":"部長好部長辛苦了那部長我先就我們現在的這個老農津貼每個月發放的這個差不多8,110元那其實從開辦到現在從1995年我們那時候一開始是差不多3,000"},{"start":17292.748,"end":17307.364,"text":"那一直到現在8000多那其實農民一直在反映就是說整個物價的上漲那土地的增值那變成說如果說老農今天沒有調漲的話其實要照顧農民的這個退休生活其實是有一些困難的"},{"start":17308.445,"end":17334.323,"text":"所以今天會有這麼多的委員針對我們老農津貼的部分希望能夠調高民進黨黨團這邊是希望能夠有這個很多委員有提到就是希望能夠一萬至一萬二那國民黨那邊是說一萬五那我想請教部長針對這個老農津貼的部分那我知道未來會有一個願板"},{"start":17335.203,"end":17357.788,"text":"那像你們現在目前大約是差不多可以多少我第一個跟委員報告現在已經送到委員會這邊來的39個版本裡面最高就是一萬二啦那一萬五是上個禮拜在記者會提出來的那我們在設計這個東西的時候我們認同就是說現在的基數太低了"},{"start":17358.468,"end":17378.994,"text":"他從100年開始用7000塊加CPI的4年調整一次嘛所以那個基數如果沒有提高的時候你透過CPI調整那個增幅的速度會非常慢所以我們希望也認同就是委員所提到的就是基數可以提高那提高我們現在要考慮到我們的財政支出的部分我們初步的設計是在這個範圍之內的某一個數值是在12000"},{"start":17384.995,"end":17410.706,"text":"之內的某一個數值那我們希望就是說其實農民碰到很多問題我剛剛聽了早上很多委員都有特別提到就是說土地增值那我們有那個排富其實如果說還要再排富的話其實我覺得這個部分可能要列入一個考慮因為很多農民是因為有排富然後這個老農今天他是領不到的大概14000人左右"},{"start":17412.386,"end":17436.519,"text":"所以我覺得這部分應該也要再去做一個調整我想排富的部分分三個部分所得的部分因為過去從100年開始也都沒調過那我們也希望說他能夠透過CPI一次把它到位從100年開始計算大概16%以上的另外一個財產的部分那財產的部分過去的土地公告限值到目前從100年到現在已經大概67%左右了"},{"start":17438.14,"end":17458.989,"text":"然後也都沒有調過所以像這類的我們也是希望一步到位把它調高然後還有針對自用住宅的部分所以我們整個的一個政策方向也是符合委員所提到的版本只是說那個額度的部分還要經過等院版的部分進來以後併案再來討論我們也會向委員說明我們設計的一個原因"},{"start":17459.769,"end":17477.603,"text":"那部長還有一種狀況就是剛剛有委員也特別提到就是說他可能從年輕他就開始繳這個農保可是到他可能到60幾歲即將要開始領這個老農津貼的時候那這個土地"},{"start":17478.123,"end":17501.556,"text":"可能小孩或者是怎樣需要用錢還是就把土地給賣掉了那賣掉之後他就會變成就只有加入這個國民年金就加入國保那他領的就是國民年金那因為最近因為我們一直在提到這個老農津貼可能會提高的這個問題所以基層有很多農民他們有碰到這樣的一個狀況那他是說可不可以他"},{"start":17502.176,"end":17517.126,"text":"可能他一輩子就是從農嘛那到了他即將可以領的時候這個土地就可能因為需要錢那可能就賣掉那有沒有可能朝著一個方向就是說他在這個按照他投保的這個比例年資比例"},{"start":17517.606,"end":17538.627,"text":"然後來領這個我們的老農津貼有沒有可能是這樣我也曾經想過這個問題但是限於現在的一個規定就是說當你要領老農津貼的65歲的時候會進行所有的查核嘛那查核就是你一定要有從事農業的行為才能夠去做可是當下你如果沒有農地就會被認為沒有從事農業的行為"},{"start":17540.669,"end":17556.77,"text":"那至于说往前追的部分就是说他符合资格的那段时间是不是可以去做情领那以现在的法规是没有办法做的那有没有可能朝着这个方向去做一个讨论然后未来是可以的"},{"start":17557.87,"end":17577.795,"text":"這個我想我們內部針對那個老農經財這個部分這牽涉到也牽涉到農保的資格我們可以來做一個專案的一個評估但是在評估過程中我們也會去了解其他的八大社福基金的設計因為牽涉到很多社會福利制度本身的橫平性的部分我想我們可以來看看後面怎麼去處理"},{"start":17578.995,"end":17594.674,"text":"另外就是說你們到即將要開始可以清理腦膿津貼的時候你們差不多是63歲差不多63歲左右就會開始做清查對不對對 本來是64歲的時候我那時候交代同仁說應該更早"},{"start":17595.494,"end":17621.582,"text":"我們不是清查就是去檢視那如果農民沒有合格的時候趕快去補相關的資料所以我希望就是說這個是不是可以再提早就有的農民他真的一件事也不知道可是他可能也搞不清楚可是等他農會跟他通知他沒有資格的時候他就很慘了不過我本來是希望說提到60歲同仁跟我講"},{"start":17622.932,"end":17643.441,"text":"有些農民就是你查過了以後他又賣掉了或什麼的會被人多次的查核但是我從鼓勵的角度去檢視協助他們以協助他們檢視的部分可以再往前可以再往前去看看沒有如果不符合資格趕快去調整這個我想我們還是以照顧農民的一個心態去處理"},{"start":17644.241,"end":17670.401,"text":"所以我是觉得应该再往前再去做一个查核要不然等他即将要领的时候然后是没有资格我们不要用查核因为查核就要处理我们是用协助他去检视他有没有符合这个资格如果不符合资格哪一些该改正的所以你们现在是请农会就是请农会协助那如果时间再往前提的话会有什么样的困难吗我想"},{"start":17671.081,"end":17691.166,"text":"困難是沒有啦只是說怕他們查完了以後農民又不知道又變成違規的怕因為時間拉太長的時候他們馬上又有違規的所以這個部分我想我們後續會再跟農會討論一下我們把這個協助他檢核的這個時間點可以往前然後也要告訴農民"},{"start":17692.406,"end":17714.121,"text":"部長我一個建議就是說剛剛講的也許在60歲左右你們可以先請農會這邊協助請農民自己檢視一下是不是他是有符合資格那如果沒有符合資格的話實際上他確實也是從農我們現在不是也可以他去承租土地農地然後"},{"start":17715.342,"end":17733.741,"text":"就是只要有證明實際耕作就可以嘛對不對所以我是覺得說也許就剛剛部長講的從60歲的時候可以我們先第一次的去做一個檢視那也許在到了64歲的時候我已經60歲已經跟你講過了你就是要有資格嘛你到64歲你還沒資格那就抱歉了"},{"start":17739.066,"end":17751.878,"text":"我想認同委員的這樣一個建議我們可以更提前的去協助農民來檢視那這個部分我想我們後續要看怎麼規劃再跟委員報告所以我今天兩個重點一個就是把農民的資格是不是可以再往前另外就是說如果他一直從以前到62歲63歲都是從農那可能"},{"start":17763.709,"end":17788.313,"text":"需要這個錢然後就土地就沒了那這樣可能這個資格就不見了那其實是不是有可能把它原本它有投保的這個部分也可以這個按照比例可以計算下去我是覺得這個是不是可以我剛才說的就是說我們會來去討論它的一個法制上面還有它現在的釋法性會去做一個規劃規劃或討論然後再把結果跟委員報告好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":17794.744,"end":17822.734,"text":"接下來請謝問委員來做詢問謝謝主席 我想要請陳部長來 請部長部長好 現在調高是不是已經是可行了對不對 調高嘛適度的調高也是我們農業部的立場對啊 那到底暫行條例要不要拿掉"},{"start":17823.499,"end":17840.41,"text":"战情条例如果根据刚才我们的法治说战情条例已经实行了这么多年已经变成一个常态了那我个人的立场也是希望说如果拿掉没有影响的话除非说拿掉以后很多法律的条例要重修那就比较麻烦"},{"start":17841.29,"end":17865.567,"text":"暫行條例拿掉會重修嗎我不知道因為有暫行條例跟沒有暫行條例本身的法律的這些條文看需要不需要調整如果不需要調整那相對單純如果還需要調整的時候那就比較麻煩所以原則上我也希望能拿掉就可以拿掉所以只要不要調整或者是把調整的內容就是也是拿出來再修過嘛那就可以把暫行條例"},{"start":17866.167,"end":17887.879,"text":"對 我想如果沒有特別影響在法律規範是可以的話我希望是可以把它拿掉第一個我們未來老農今天就是要把基數先拉高嘛 是不是把他的基數 對基數先拉高嘛雖然說大家現在還有一些就是說到底拉多高這個大家都至少是1萬塊以上嘛 對不對"},{"start":17889.693,"end":17908.512,"text":"靠我們的財政是不是就一萬塊以上靠我們的財政是不是那到底未來CPI你剛才也講的就是說有一點就是回答前面我以為有點模糊到底CPI的這個調整的機制是兩年或者是四年"},{"start":17908.732,"end":17923.734,"text":"我這樣講我們在設計的過程裡面就額度的部分第一個部分把基底拉高一點第二個部分就是現在是每四年根據CPI調整一次那我們希望說每四年還是維持著"},{"start":17924.255,"end":17942.691,"text":"但是两年我就做其中检讨那这个其中检讨如果他的CPI达到某一个触发点就是3%或5%的时候那我们就当年度就开始调整可是四年到了还是会去确定他会调超过3%不用"},{"start":17943.945,"end":17960.159,"text":"假設說四年是4%好了然後兩年的時候是3%那以現在的制度一定要等到四年才會調嘛然後新的機制我們的設計是兩年就只有減四它如果超過3%假設那我就調了可是後面兩年只剩下一%嘛"},{"start":17961.3,"end":17985.556,"text":"我照调所以我维持四年一次的一个循环的时候是对您最有利的等于就是说你按照原本的四年调整一次但是如果两年超过了四年那个幅度的时候你们就调了不是 超过一个3%到5%只要超过那个出发门槛我就调整那后面的两年不管多少我还是会调"},{"start":17985.976,"end":18002.096,"text":"那最近幾年來就是說你們今年大概是3.59吧是不是3年多少3.9所以如果按照你的機制今年就如果大院這邊大家討論的話是3%的話就可以調如果是5%就不能調"},{"start":18002.901,"end":18029.673,"text":"所以如果就是說未來是3%調整就是觸及3%就調整一次的話那今年就等於明年就要開始調了對不對是 如果是最後的法律的規範是這樣的話就可以調整對 那即便總預算不通過的情況下我們經常門還是會進行嗎總預算不過的話什麼都不用談我是說經常門咧不是 我們"},{"start":18031.435,"end":18047.356,"text":"總預算沒過的話新興計劃是不能動第二個延續性計劃你新增加的經費也不能動那個老農津貼本身是一個老農津貼本來就有了但是因為你提高的話你新增加的經費是不能動的"},{"start":18048.738,"end":18068.107,"text":"可是我們必須要給國人知道台灣的預算的制度跟美國不一樣美國是總預算不通過什麼都不能動可是台灣不是只有新興計畫還有延續性的新增計畫就是今天如果要增強延續性的計畫新增的經費也不能動"},{"start":18069.848,"end":18086.104,"text":"舉個例子我今天通過了總預算不過的話我還是只能領8110因為這個經費可是如果我們通過的施行日期是按照就是說就是即時即刻 一樣啊你總預算不給什麼都不用說啊我知道 但是未來你可以再追溯嘛對不對沒有"},{"start":18087.952,"end":18111.17,"text":"未來可以追溯嘛 但總預算通過了就可以追溯啦 對不對沒有 追溯是另外一件事情但是我們還是希望說年度的預算能夠希望委員的支持趕快省啦那有一些東西我也是希望說趕快省啦 不過還有有的地方卡地卡地人都不可以搬嘛 對不對"},{"start":18113.825,"end":18134.535,"text":"還有有的部分都要按照法律來編嘛我非常感謝委員對農業這個議題本身的一個對農民的一些照顧跟希望能夠照顧他們的福利但是我剛才講的我們都很願意像我今天的版本都很正面的回應那回應完了以後需要的經費那一定要總預算通過啦"},{"start":18134.815,"end":18161.938,"text":"我知道啦 所以拜託一下我是說即便是我們先按照原本的但是未來總預算通過的時候我們就可以農民就無感啦 因為變成說賣掉啦賣掉啦那這樣的話我們的計畫也不用那麼快送委員會啦因為送委員會也不能執行嘛你就是用一個卡我們一個沒有沒有 這個是我們很認真的去什麼時候可以來老王津貼"},{"start":18162.779,"end":18179.134,"text":"我想我們盡快的跟行政院溝通看看會不會排入院會啦排入院會完了以後就能夠立刻的再請召委安排相關的一個逐條審查的部分所以牌婦也會都會一起處理啦也會進行調整嘛那進行調整的情況是如何"},{"start":18179.634,"end":18206.614,"text":"我想排富的部分第一個部分就是所得的部分我們會根據CPI一次到位就是現在目前CPI已經累積到16%從100年然後財產的部分是根據土地公告限值那土地公告限值現在目前的一個一個增幅大概是64.78那我也希望能夠根據土地公告限值來提高然後包括自用住宅的部分也有一定位來提高"},{"start":18207.334,"end":18224.572,"text":"那我相信我們那自用住宅會分區嗎也會來處理那我相信分區處理吧因為不同縣分區會比較麻煩會根據土地公告限制的部分不過我想我們提出來的版本針對排富的部分我相信一定會讓委員滿意"},{"start":18226.434,"end":18251.805,"text":"好那我最後再問一個就是說農民商業保險的部分我就是說農業部是不是預計就是2026年開始提供續保的農民額外5%的保費補助我們當初這個設計就是我們不希望農民就是用賭天跟天對賭的方式就是好像有天災了才去保沒有天災就不保"},{"start":18252.225,"end":18272.766,"text":"那我們希望它是一個常態性的所以我們利用這個5%希望說它能夠持續保這樣的話投保人越多的時候相對的大家共同分擔那個風險的機會越大因為現在你們農民商業保險的推動除了一些政策型的大部分都是商業保險然後好像都其他的保險推動的"},{"start":18273.686,"end":18297.578,"text":"還不夠有利所以我才會說農業保險在我的立場一定要重視品質比重視數量也是你們很重視的一個一個就是新型態的保險過去我們現在辦的保單大概28個品項44張保單但是我覺得有些保單投保人數太低我不想再衝那個量我希望說重視那個品質每一張保單都有很多人來投保"},{"start":18298.218,"end":18321.917,"text":"所以我們會設計更大的一些誘因然後我也把很多天氣參數放進去就是天氣參數達到了就啟動不要在那邊勘栽太麻煩的方式這個我想我們一起來努力好那就麻煩了好不好那希望說未來可以提供農民以及我們所有的農業的產業有一個更好的保障會謝謝那也希望委員能夠能夠讓總預算趕快審謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":18329.424,"end":18351.434,"text":"謝謝 接下來請郭國文委員來做詢問謝謝主席 有請我們農業部陳部長好 請部長不過可以拿來備詢台或是詢台也可以"},{"start":18355.225,"end":18372.534,"text":"時間扣掉了 我只是拉勒而已我只有四分鐘好 部長今天討論這個老容津貼大家都非常清楚當初老容津貼的基本的額度是從三千到十千到五千 到六千 到七千經過四次的調整到了七千元"},{"start":18373.374,"end":18402.954,"text":"但事實上之前最早都是在額度上的調整設定了7000以後又加了兩道門鎖一個就是所謂的調升四年的調升條款另外一個就是所謂的排付條款以至於現在要處理老農經貼的時候就要用三道門檻我們共同來面對為什麼會這樣子因為歷經了14年就是從7000的當年馬英九時代的7000到現在你看歷經了14年我們調了多少"},{"start":18407.896,"end":18422.283,"text":"14年喔 1101所以當初7000卡了這兩道門檻一個公式的機制換算一個排戶的門檻的一個設定這兩個就是代表什麼代表民生暗降"},{"start":18423.163,"end":18443.792,"text":"它根本在限制你老農津貼的這種發放的機制看起來好像對農民好其實對農民真的很不好為什麼會有到這麼多的立委會紛紛提案就是它有很大的檢討的空間嘛14年的這個排付條款的時候我在上一屆的立委的時候我就已經提出來了"},{"start":18444.252,"end":18462.52,"text":"那時候我們就跟八大的社福指標掛鉤在一起我說那是沒道理的事情第二個我本席也提出所謂的機制的調整這個CPI的部分從年份的部分調整我當然贊同從CPI的部分的調整你也應該參考高齡的這個CPI高齡的CPI跟CPI不一樣那主席處已經定義出來了那個對"},{"start":18464.941,"end":18487.036,"text":"老農來說是相對而言是有幫助的所以與時俱進的一種公式調整方式是第一個我們要去面對的問題第二個 排付條款的鬆綁更是我們要積極要去處理的問題有些房屋是老農自住我看數字給你聽你剛剛講說經過一段時間之後這一個徵服美工請的公告定價徵服已經高達64.98"},{"start":18495.381,"end":18517.099,"text":"到2024的時候呢增幅已經高達77%了所以制定的這個額外的所得50萬還是14年前的我是跟你講我們雖然農業部做了很多但是呢被罵了也不少我覺得農民今天就是被罵的源頭所以我是希望部長趁這個時候是不是能夠將門檻的問題面對"},{"start":18523.344,"end":18545.07,"text":"把這個公司機制的面對把這個排付條款的問題來面對部長三大關鍵一起處理有沒有可能部長我們現在就是朝這個方向排付的部分就成如委員剛才講的我們在從100年開始都沒有處理過包括所得的部分所以他累積了大概將近應該是"},{"start":18547.482,"end":18574.537,"text":"應該是多少那個16%左右CPI 16%所以所得的部分我們會一次到位我們希望說一次到位把它調到跟CPI的帳戶然後財產的部分土地公告限值從100年到現在已經增加了64.87%了那我們也希望一次到位把它調起來然後包括自用住宅的部分然後我另外特別想要提的就是說我一直認為農民很辛苦的賺錢"},{"start":18577.339,"end":18595.824,"text":"買一個房子他不會去賣的部分我們也考慮很多自住的部分要怎麼處理這個我想我們在院的時候都有一些規劃跟報告所以這個部分等院版通過院會以後到時候我會再跟委員做一個說明"},{"start":18596.144,"end":18610.539,"text":"那整個調高金額的這個整個參數當中你要不要考慮一下把CPI的這個參數裡頭做一個調整把它弄成一個高點CPI的可能性對老農會比較有幫助一點點我想這個部分在當下現在比較困難因為"},{"start":18611.42,"end":18638.899,"text":"因為我們其他的八大社福基金都是65歲以上的如果說純粹只是老農津貼本身去用採用高齡的CPI的話那你就問一下主基礎為什麼要用一個高齡的CPI如果要調了你也可以率先先調啊讓他其他一起調是其他沒有調是其他落後不是你不是你進步啊不是 整體的部分我們希望行政院能夠讓我們農民津貼可以先走那我們額度也是做一些調整然後CPI我也做了調整就是兩年額度先走嘛"},{"start":18639.199,"end":18655.746,"text":"但是參數的部分也可以做調整你一併送啦不要以後再來調啦也許改天人家八大社府已經調了你才一定要跟人家後面為什麼一定要跟著後面走我就說你現在的送案子你就這樣送那差不太多啦那是一個生意啦"},{"start":18657.327,"end":18673.315,"text":"部長你回去研究一下啦我們可以來研究啦因為我想我們會再跟行政院這邊了解一下其他的八大社福基金現在的情況是啊 調整一下啦台北社福基金基本上門檻都太高而且金額太少了啦基本上要與時俱進那調高額度的部分你們有考慮嗎"},{"start":18674.716,"end":18698.07,"text":"有額度的部分我們也認為現在的那個基礎從最後一次調整的7000塊所以你看嘛調了那麼多次才100多塊而已因為它只有處理CPI沒有處理基線所以基線我們覺得它太低了應該做適度的提高但是提高的過程中我們會精算我們的財富的一個負擔所以我說這是民生安降啊"},{"start":18699.071,"end":18720.893,"text":"當然高明的手法所以這個三個都要一起面對最後我還是要提醒你一點前天我們在討論的時候有關於這一個青農覆蓋率的部分除菌的部分老實講 那個勞保局我去問過覆蓋率真的就不到30你也不要把以前灌進來啦我們就老實的面對這制度裡頭覆蓋率不足的問題啦才能真正設計好一個制度出來好不好"},{"start":18721.954,"end":18745.825,"text":"你只要寫有農保三十萬沒錯可是要扣掉資格有疑慮的大概有八九萬人他不可能來參加的啦所以實際才要二十二萬人啦你用實際數啊實際上他就有投農報啊因為參加的八萬人他不可能來投因為他資格可能有問題他不敢現身啦主席站起來我不要站太久他會生啦先到這邊我們改天還有資格再討論啦謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":18750.816,"end":18766.53,"text":"接下來請陳毅委員來做詢問好 謝謝主席 那麻煩請我們農業部長來 部長"},{"start":18773.073,"end":18790.169,"text":"委員好部長好 辛苦了今天質詢委員特別多我想是這樣我們政府一直在說我們要照顧老農我想照顧老農絕對不是只有口號而已有關於老農今天目前排富的規定在我們之前那天開記者會"},{"start":18792.341,"end":18811.857,"text":"大概好多好多的委員參加那在目前這個排富的規定退休農民這個房土財產的這個總計超過這個500萬元不含農地的部分就會被排富那這個規定就當然我們在100年修法之後就不曾再調整過"},{"start":18813.418,"end":18831.909,"text":"那內政部呢對於這個住宅價格的統計只有六都還有這個全國平均那並沒有針對我們台東縣但是我們可以參考一下就是不動產估價師工會整理的資料在101年的時候呢台東房屋的平均每坪價格"},{"start":18832.97,"end":18860.951,"text":"大約在6.3萬元在111年的時候我們台東房屋的平均每坪價格已經漲到14.4萬了這個整幅是整整超過一倍如果說我們跟全國各縣市來比較台東的漲幅是全國第十名但是如果說排除六都之後其實我們是全國的第四名"},{"start":18861.671,"end":18885.019,"text":"換句話說呢10年前呢他的房子可能只有200多萬那他符合這個老農津貼的規定可是10年之後呢這個房子已經都變成500多萬元那就被排富了所以也就無法領取這個老農津貼了我想我們這些農民辛苦了一輩子那老的就剩下一個安身立命的一個非常老舊的房子了那卻因為這個房價的這個上漲被拒於這個門外"},{"start":18889.6,"end":18910.876,"text":"那我想這樣的排富設計是完全偏離老農津貼的一個照顧基本農民的這個初衷所以我希望這個部分可以徹底的檢討那部長對於這一點您的具體回應我跟委員報告其實我們在內部的討論其中有一個討論就是說這個土地公告限制可能在各地會不一樣"},{"start":18911.976,"end":18939.855,"text":"就你剛才講的分區可是當你去看這個分區的話你都會遇到一個隔一條街隔一條巷子有沒有就不同區域的部分會這樣枯裂所以我那時候就思考說如果大家再去看這個不同區域的時候那總是會有一些不一樣的差異甚至於同一區裡面的不同的行政轄區又會不一樣所以我們還是傾向用全國一致性的但是我在排富的這個拉力的部分"},{"start":18940.775,"end":18947.685,"text":"我希望說能夠更高一點讓大家就不用擔心說它的土地的增值會有不同區域的一個限制"},{"start":18948.767,"end":18973.159,"text":"部長這樣子講其實我還是會有一點擔心因為你如果說有一個比較具體的這個案例是你怎麼樣的計算我舉個例子因為我們所有的送到行政院的版本因為還沒有獲得最後的行政院的一個核定我不方便把細節說出來但是我舉這個例子就是說土地公告限制以全國的平均是64.78"},{"start":18975.7,"end":18994.189,"text":"那我们可不可以设计一个全数能够再多一点让它去覆盖这些不同区域的误差就是所有全台湾的这些老农民他们怎么样自己住的那一栋都不会达到那个标准我的意思是说可能有的是"},{"start":18995.686,"end":19006.6,"text":"以平均是64.78的增幅有人增幅40有人增幅100那我乾脆想辦法讓這個排富的門檻拉到大家就不用擔心"},{"start":19007.751,"end":19029.358,"text":"是這也是我剛剛所提的意思這個部分我想我們會用另外一個方式來設計因為當你考慮到區域的話你畫縣畫縣市那縣市不同的區域又會不一樣哦讓大家都會很亂啊所以我乾脆一勞永逸的我在土地公告縣市那邊去做一個設計讓大家都不用擔心說有的區域會比較高有的區域會比較低"},{"start":19030.024,"end":19050.044,"text":"所以最起碼就是說原先他們自住的這些老房子不會因為這個我們是朝這個目的現在大概有一萬四千人那其中一萬兩千人是因為財產的關係被排掉那以我們目前的一個設計我們會把這個不能領的這些被排掉的人數大幅的降低"},{"start":19051.844,"end":19073.252,"text":"這個部分也要麻煩部長可以替大家多多把關我們一起努力不是把關 我們會去支持今天還有很多委員提到都是希望提高老農津貼的金額雖然老農津貼當初的設計已經納入了消費者物價指數的概念"},{"start":19073.692,"end":19096.131,"text":"但是他的基期太低了只有7000元所以經過幾十年的調整也才增加1100元而已我們同時讓部長看一下其他評估社會底層經濟情況的標準除了基本工資以外通常低收入戶的計算基礎就是最低生活費的標準101年到114年的基本工資增加到"},{"start":19097.012,"end":19113.563,"text":"增加了10720元那台東的最低生活指標的這個標準就是13年間也增加了5271元但老農津貼的部分只增加大約1000元而已所以要讓老農津貼可以實際反映這個"},{"start":19115.505,"end":19129.08,"text":"我們反映物價變化的話呢必須要提高原本的這個計算基數也就是提高這個7000元的這個基期金額那我想這個是我們大家目前的共識啦也希望部長在這個部分"},{"start":19130.081,"end":19149.642,"text":"對 這個也是剛才我講的就是說現在的基底一個是基底一個是CBI的調整的年度那個年度嘛那基底太低的話你靠CBI去拉你拉的每一次拉的都是幾百塊而已所以我們這一次希望說這個基底能夠拉高一點往上拉那往上拉當然也不可能完全看這個最低生活匯因為"},{"start":19150.836,"end":19178.712,"text":"我們給老農的退休保障是有兩塊一個是一個是老農津貼一個是退休儲金那我們設計說以後這兩個加起來一定會比老保的還多所以在短時間之內我們希望說能夠適度的反應提高但是沒有辦法說完全比照這種所謂的生活費的方式因為很多農民他在65歲以上還是有一些工作所得所以我們希望說這是一個福利的一個津貼我們希望說至少"},{"start":19179.412,"end":19199.441,"text":"表現出政府願意照顧農民的一個決心但是我們會提高但是提高的額度對 金額的部分也務必就是說我們大家要精算一定會提高 對因為目前農民經濟的金額隨著我們CPI的調整機制是四年檢討一次我知道很多的社會福利的制度都是四年檢討一次"},{"start":19200.581,"end":19228.292,"text":"那但是呢我們政府很多向民眾收取規費的這個制度呢是三年檢討一次就是給民眾錢的時候四年檢討一次但是要跟民眾收錢的時候就三年檢討一次那這個部分呢我們就是說也希望就是說這個整個檢討的這個規定是不是就是說往下修好那因為畢竟我們像我們去年通過的這個原住民的這個禁法補償條例"},{"start":19229.592,"end":19258.792,"text":"對於整個CPI的指數的調整機制是兩年檢討一次所以不是沒有潛力可以修那這個部分也可以就是說也請你們做參考就是說才可以隨時即時反映給政府這個退休農民的協助我也跟委員報告就是原來的四年調整一次我們會一直不變但是我們增加了一個其中的檢討兩年就檢視那檢視它如果CPI超過某個額度我們就調整"},{"start":19259.532,"end":19286.328,"text":"有類似的這樣的一個設計在裡面好 那最後快速問一下就是說因為過去我們不斷推動這個原住民老人各項福利政策那在這個年齡規定的這個要下修為55歲 應下修55歲那主要是因為原住民跟這個全體國民的平均餘命有將近10歲的差距那對於這個行政單位呢過去也用同樣很多的理由就是說"},{"start":19287.648,"end":19304.474,"text":"他們有一個特定的理由都是來拒絕這樣子的提案那我不太清楚部長知不知道這個就是說到底什麼樣的我大概了解我想應該有兩個數據一個數據就是用所有的原住民當作分母去算"},{"start":19305.094,"end":19322.935,"text":"那另外一個數據是針對從事農業領取老農津貼的這個族群去算如果以因為我們今天在處理老農津貼所以我們在算領取老農津貼的這些原住民他的平均餘命是82.7歲他比全國的餘命還高所以我們才認同認為就是說應該維持65歲"},{"start":19325.745,"end":19354.211,"text":"不好意思您是指就是說全部務農的原住民的年齡嗎對 領取老農津貼的平均餘命是82.7他比全國的80點多還高好 那我想分母不一樣一個是全體的原住民我想那個部分也麻煩部長把你們參考依據的那個好 我再把我們的數據再提供給委員但因為我這邊的這個數據也提供給你們參考原住民檢疫生意表"},{"start":19354.771,"end":19375.178,"text":"生命表的這個提要分析那因為就是說我們就是原住民跟全國平均的全國國民的這個平均與移民的差距是成這個縮小的趨勢所以他們就是會覺得說不同意來修改這個原住民老人福利的年齡規定"},{"start":19376.118,"end":19402.402,"text":"但是我們給部長看這個圖因為這是上個月內政部公佈的原住民檢疫生命表分析那原住民的這個跟這個全體國民平均餘命縮小趨勢因為在這三年就已經存在了那為什麼這三年原住民的平均餘命跟全體國民的這個差距是拉大的因為我也不太清楚你們的那個資料到底是幾年到幾年"},{"start":19402.802,"end":19412.913,"text":"我想這個背後其實應該都有一些複雜的原因需要再去探究所以這個部分我也希望說你們也不要一下子就完全"},{"start":19413.755,"end":19440.627,"text":"去打翻我們的這些 我知道我也非常謝謝委員對原住民朋友的這些考慮那我想後續我們會提供一些數據給委員因為我提到也不是說這55歲就永遠55歲我們也是按照這個狀況來調整然後每5年依這個狀況來調整一次年齡的規定逐步調高65這樣子好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請蔡議員委員來做詢問"},{"start":19450.193,"end":19477.548,"text":"謝謝主席 是不是請這個農業部 陳部長來 請部長餵好部長 今天柯克倫這個老農津貼的暫行條例怎麼這樣 上午這樣聽起來您對暫行這兩天拿掉看起來農業部是認為是支持的這樣嗎對 如果說在法制上面如果沒有什麼特別問題然後條文不需要重新"},{"start":19478.348,"end":19498.299,"text":"重寫的話那相對的單純我想整個大概只有條文名稱戰刑事實上條文的架構本身基本上都很完整了所以只是這個戰刑這兩字的移動因為已經一直持續一直持續在政策一直持續在走的事實上這樣的一個老農津貼大概就是說對農民的照顧他未來"},{"start":19499.299,"end":19523.589,"text":"除非到了這個農民的一個退休儲金這一個制度者的更完善了不然老農今天的制度我想是會一直持續下去的這是沒有問題的吧對 因為戰刑有時候我也聽到很多農民講說這個戰刑這兩個字會讓人家覺得說隨時都有可能拿掉所以這個部分從這個角度來考量的話我是覺得如果在法制上沒問題的話我是支持把它拿掉打退掉"},{"start":19524.369,"end":19543.068,"text":"再來就是這個勞動基金協會討論這個金額啦事實上我自己就有提案啦我提案是調高到一萬兩千塊啦那部長如果你可以你們現在有辦法稍微試算一下嗎如果是調高到一萬塊的話大概會增加多少"},{"start":19543.729,"end":19561.369,"text":"如果是調高到一萬塊的話要增加一百二一將近一百二十億一百二十億對那如果是一萬二的話要增加兩百四十七啦兩百四十七億簡單的講每提高一千塊的話一年要增加大概六十三點五億啦"},{"start":19562.669,"end":19582.739,"text":"對 可是這中間事實上我們等一下又要討論牌付條款嘛如果牌付的門檻適度的爬半塊那金額也會再拉上去啦所以可以想像的就是說要到一萬塊要一百二十億要到一萬二十億就要兩百多億的預算啦我們很期待說可以這樣一年期讓它到一萬二十億啦我是有看過國民黨"},{"start":19588.181,"end":19595.844,"text":"所以我剛才講說說我們都同意額度提高但是在額度的提高的設計上應該去考慮到我們的財政的支出當然我們農業部本身大概1692億今年來講1682億其中有800億是依法律義務支出的"},{"start":19612.33,"end":19626.865,"text":"如果810再加上這些錢的話那相對的會排擠掉我們農業部的一個本預算的部分所以我們會考慮到那當然這中間的一個很重要關鍵的其實是這個總預算那總預算的部分"},{"start":19627.586,"end":19655.572,"text":"事實上我覺得在這個議題上像剛才謝玉鳳在說我們也覺得要鼓勵他事實上我們民進黨我們有提出行政院有提出這個財化法的再修那這個再修基本上對於農業線才是有利的一個方向他把所謂農民的產值納入所謂人口的指標然後把農地的價值用加權的方式讓土地的價值要在農地上面再做加值"},{"start":19656.332,"end":19673.705,"text":"所以這一個才化法我覺得是明明是對農業線更好的啊所以我覺得在現在在討論老農今天然後就要討論到接下來明年的總預算啊要到底多少錢可以來增加我們的老農金錢對農民的照顧那這中間"},{"start":19675.447,"end":19689.809,"text":"採劃法為什麼國民黨農業縣的國民黨我看農業館的早上也有很多人都來講這個議題啊你都有跟他說事實上問題出一種預算嗎我都有說啦 我說我覺得謝宇峰有斷定喔他要集起來喔"},{"start":19690.35,"end":19711.148,"text":"大家都希望趕快實施但是趕快實施的一個前提要有經費嘛那有經費的話預算一定要審完以後我們才能夠選相關的程序去請證預算嘛因為這個東西並沒有在我們年度預算的編列嘛所以我們會向行政院請證但是如果總預算不過的話很多行政院本身的災害準備金額二倍金額什麼都不能動"},{"start":19711.889,"end":19728.811,"text":"包括新增的計畫因為腦通經驗是延續的但是延續經費的部分如果有新增經費的部分那那個經費是不能動的所以就算我通過了以後我還是只能領8110沒有錯嘛那就是延續新增的部分就沒辦法縱使我們修法"},{"start":19729.111,"end":19744.229,"text":"過了還是沒有辦法所以我們才一直期待就是說所以這綜藝省現在要緊了綜藝省應該趕快所以我們在這裡就是說國民黨既然他對老農今天這個議題上他也要事實上他也某些程度也有呼應我們我們說至少一萬口給你"},{"start":19745.85,"end":19772.37,"text":"這就要增加綜藝省嘛所以國民黨我們就要告訴大家就不要六月掛彩給五星嘛既然有要支持農業要支持農民擴大對農民的照顧綜藝省給然後金額來提高像我的提案是寫到了一萬二這需要兩百五十億的一個支出那當然這對部長來說你們好好斟酌一下可是關鍵點總預算"},{"start":19774.851,"end":19793.447,"text":"請國民黨的農業縣立委大家一起來正式對 我也跟委員報告如果總議院不過的話其實審這個法案審過根本審不過其實意義就不大了意義不大啦 變這樣啦好 再來就是我事實上早上很多人都在講啦這一個排富的部分部長我還是呼籲啦我們現在排富的門檻"},{"start":19794.568,"end":19810.776,"text":"除了做所的然後土地跟房屋的價值然後土地房屋價值中可以來扣除一個叫做唯一自住那唯一自住的扣除大概目前規定是400萬那我要跟部長講啦事實上你來 你可以想像啦這個農民 他就住這間房子"},{"start":19813.757,"end":19820.207,"text":"這間房子的價值可能會隨著說旁邊開樓我這間房子旁邊有開樓或是說旁邊有什麼樣的發展這間房子的價值就會增加房子的價值增加 它的金錢就沒了"},{"start":19829.2,"end":19846.18,"text":"對他而言,他為了要繼續領津貼,我一定要賣房子,要不然這間房子就要過去孩子的名,過去孩子的名又會造成有時候還是會產生新的社會問題啊,如果孩子把房子賣掉了,這些老人說,為了這個津貼,我只要賺一間房子就沒辦法大,我賺大的地方就不去。"},{"start":19848.943,"end":19871.177,"text":"我覺得我們既然這個今天是站在照顧農民的一個立場齁我認為啦這個在討論牌幅的時候就把唯一自住的房子齁不要說扣除額扣多少啦唯一自住的房子就都不要去計算了啦齁阿剩下的部分再看這個牌幅要拉到多高齁阿不就是唯一自住的我們就把它排除這樣好不好"},{"start":19872.987,"end":19889.082,"text":"我有一件報告我剛才在說就是說我們農民一輩子拼命去買一間房子對不對而且是自住的部分然後他的增值也不是他想要增值的是因為其他的因素的造成他也不會去賣的時候不要因為為了領農農津貼然後因為"},{"start":19891.744,"end":19912.199,"text":"不是他所能控制的因素而造成所以我們也非常嚴肅的去考慮將這個唯一自住的這些房屋的扣除額用另外一個方式來處理但是詳細的情形我必須等到院板通過以後好 那我們期待說保定至少在院板在溝通的時候你可以等一會兒我會 院板出來以後"},{"start":19912.979,"end":19929.69,"text":"多站在支持的一個立場去跟院方來做一個溝通我覺得我們排富已經對農民想得非常周全當然還有檢討的空間不過我們提出來以後應該會讓委員相對滿意我們會讓委員也會跟委員溝通我們的當初的設計而且我們設計是有我們的依據"},{"start":19937.395,"end":19948.087,"text":"好那我再講一個議題就好就是說現在我們那個雜糧區有在跟我反映今年的這個硬質玉米因為主要為丹納斯風災料就是0728料"},{"start":19951.155,"end":19978.35,"text":"料比較開始進油米啦阿做油米整個料 哇都沒好一支好就沒了 真厲害所以你來看喔我有一個統計數據以今年的降雨量跟跟去年的降雨量你看90、11來說去到去年的時候可能都每個月可能都還有一點點的降雨量啦大概說30厘米啦 或20厘米啦今年從11、12月"},{"start":19982.08,"end":20008.653,"text":"10月是零 3月是3厘米 12月是2厘米所以降雨量非常的少因為降雨量少的關係就影響到了硬質玉米的一個發展所以今年硬質玉米收成非常的差看起來連一半都沒有所以部長是不是可以先所以我先跟您反映這個狀況可能部長有時間還是農糧署這邊可以抱一個人來產區來看一下今年硬質玉米的收成狀況是確實是不好"},{"start":20010.034,"end":20034.255,"text":"那這部分是不是也請農業部來給我們家的農民來倒三天的我想我在立法院如果沒有特別的一個專案報告我也很希望到產區去看這第一個第二個部分就是說玉米的部分它不能完全看雨量因為它有灌牌系統所以我們要去了解它當地的灌牌系統是不是沒問題如果當地有灌牌系統那變成說你不灌對啦 我就灌給他那看要怎麼處理"},{"start":20036.918,"end":20054.773,"text":"會公會反映的大概就是沒有水源我們會去看啦 好不好我們會去了解好 那就請部長再關心我們一下好 謝謝好 謝謝蔡委員 謝謝部長接下來請林思敏委員 林思敏委員林思敏委員不在 請劉徐廷委員來做懸答謝謝主席 農業部長有請來 有請陳部長"},{"start":20067.492,"end":20095.358,"text":"委員好 部長午安這個剛剛有委員在談這個事你們在政策對話的過程中本席在那邊聽說談到了一個很重要的問題就是說大家今天除了討論修法的內容到底是一萬二一萬五排富的門檻要怎麼做處理之外真正我覺得比較值得大家思考一下的問題是修法過了之後到底拿不拿得到對不對 按照陳部長剛剛的說法修法過了拿不到是因為到目前為止115年的中央政府總預算還沒有進入附會審查的這個階段"},{"start":20096.518,"end":20120.112,"text":"那部長知道為什麼總預算到現在沒辦法復違嗎我想總預算在這個會期應該是在審預算的一個情況那審預算裡面就算我個人認為就算委員有一些不同的意見但是還是要讓總預算進行實質的審查跟討論那討論的過程中我想各部會一定會提出他的說明以農業部來講我們的預算已經準備在那邊了"},{"start":20120.472,"end":20138.025,"text":"好 你講啦其實跟你農業部沒有什麼關係啦總預算之所以到現在沒有辦法付為審查是因為軍人加薪的這筆錢該編的時候沒有編嘛警察消防 你先聽我講完嘛警察跟消防人員的退休的這個停侃或者是說重新調整退休金這部分你該編入公務預算沒有編嘛"},{"start":20139.506,"end":20161.014,"text":"這個就是橫平性的問題喔因為一般立法院在審計算的時候不能增加預算因為預算如果說以今天農民...是啊那我要問你啊居然待遇條例是法律案還是預算案我告訴你這個部分我就用農民津貼一樣農民津貼也有經費的問題但是這個津貼如果經過討論行政單位如果認可的話那就是行政單位會編預算嘛"},{"start":20161.954,"end":20182.555,"text":"所以行政單位還要認可 請問現在今天版本有願版嗎 沒有對不對那今天民進黨稍微排審了條文今天只是質詢跟備詢 並沒有進到實質的討論那實質討論的時候願版的一定會進來我告訴你啊 按照正常的邏輯這個立法院審查大概法律案就是法律案預算案就是預算案 對不對"},{"start":20183.115,"end":20197.632,"text":"今天的這個但是法律案如果裡面有簽約到預算的絕對數目的時候那就必須要經得我們行政院的同意所以你的意思是說我們在審理任何的法案之後我們還要一定要經得你的同意也就是說未來我們在這個場合不管討論出來要經過討論 聽我講完嘛要經過討論嘛你先聽我講完嘛"},{"start":20200.495,"end":20214.654,"text":"不管這個委員會討論出了什麼樣的結果只要你不同意所以你就可以後面可以不執行意思就這樣子囉不是 我的意思是說我們一定要進到委員會做充分的討論甚至在院會經過充分的討論但是沒有經過充分的討論之下"},{"start":20215.855,"end":20231.256,"text":"像農民年金如果今天有人喊到兩萬塊然後不經過討論也不讓我們表達意見的時候部長我現在很擔心啦我剛剛講啊正常邏輯法律案就是法律案條例就是條例預算就是預算這不一樣喔因為法律案裡面有一些是含有預算我們當然都知道你聽我講完嘛"},{"start":20231.836,"end":20250.175,"text":"我們當然都知道預算案我們不能主動提增加這就是我剛剛回答你第一個問回答剛剛大家討論第一個問題為什麼總預算沒辦法付為因為沒有辦法在付為的時候把軍人該加的薪水加回來沒辦法把警消人員該有退休金討回來沒辦法因為我們尊重預算案的性質嘛不能因為這樣子而擋了總預算進到審查但是問題就是你法律不執行嘛對不對"},{"start":20250.896,"end":20267.562,"text":"好 那現在法律案裡面如果包了預算的金額的部分你們自己的行政院都自己可以創設規則也就是說如果法律案包括預算案就一定要經過行政院的同意那請問我們還要立法院幹什麼我說一定要經過行政院的一起來討論那討論會找到一個共識嘛我請問你啊 我是內政委員會啦我們當初審原住民進房補償條例的時候有沒有討論有討論嘛 沒有共識而已對不對"},{"start":20276.505,"end":20283.477,"text":"那沒有共識是不是要按照立法院的規矩按照議事的程序經過投票表決來做最後的結果對不對"},{"start":20285.118,"end":20310.144,"text":"你怎麼能夠期待一個全世界哪有一個國會所有的案子都是無一一通過對不對哪有這樣子的所以是要討論嘛對嘛經過討論之後沒有結果所以才表決啊現在總預算連進到討論的機會都沒有嘛我現在講的是前面的法律案包含進法補償條例包含軍人待遇條例包含警察人員人事條例是不是都經過討論沒有共識才表決對我農業部來講我現在關心的就是總預算有沒有付為"},{"start":20311.184,"end":20331.885,"text":"所以今天討論這個老農年福利今天也是一樣經過討論之後民進黨現在有民進黨版本你院裡面的版本到現在沒有出來國民黨有國民黨的版本大家的版本不一樣很有可能到了最後也沒有共識要經過要經過表決的程序做出最後的決定現在你剛剛的意思是說只要這個決定出來的東西你不滿意你就可以不執行是嗎我沒這樣說喔你沒有這樣講我沒這樣講啊"},{"start":20334.147,"end":20355.701,"text":"所以你說大家要討論然後最好能夠朝一個共識然後在共識的過程中你剛剛跟我講說這個行政院要同意才行啊你剛剛沒有這樣講嗎我說協商以後要同意我們認同協商以後要同意那不就是要同意嗎那萬一沒有結果呢萬一沒有結果呢過去的很多法律案的部分沒有共識的話就會先放在那邊找到有共識的嘛"},{"start":20356.061,"end":20374.885,"text":"法律案沒有法律案如果沒有共識要做決定就要表決嘛那不然幹嘛設計表決的機制呢法律案的部分我們農業部非常多的法律案看起來扯到非常多的利害關係人家的關係都沒有共識的時候看起來陳部長是蠻想當立法委員的這我尊重啦好不好但是我現在很擔心啦我是一點都沒有興趣當立法委員"},{"start":20376.247,"end":20389.647,"text":"我們現在擔心的地方是今天我們在討論老年農民的福利津貼如果到最後沒有讓民進黨吃自助餐的話那是不是到了最後你會不會執行 我先問如果最後表決結果通過的是一萬五千塊的版本你會不會執行"},{"start":20390.731,"end":20415.174,"text":"如果啦我不做這樣的預期你不做這樣的預期而且我相信我們的版本提出來的話我能夠說服所有的委員你要說服所有的委員只會說委員是不講理的直接經過討論的程序在立法院三讀通過最後結果如果是一萬五千塊你要不要執行嗎我不考慮假設性的問題你現在又不考慮假設性的問題我不回答這種假設性的問題因為我不認為委員最好你這個沒有說實話啦我告訴你我告訴你現在的委員是喊"},{"start":20416.635,"end":20435.182,"text":"我寧願聽到你講真話你講真話講說你沒有辦法做主這我就接受為什麼當初在審計碼補償條例的時候原民會也講說我們很支持這樣的東西增加但到最後也不是他說的算我沒有這樣講喔我沒有這樣講一萬五我說過一萬五我是不支持的啊我舉個例子給你聽嘛對不對那到最後是行政院可以片面的決定要或不要嘛"},{"start":20435.842,"end":20452.792,"text":"那我們到底今天在審查什麼東西呢對不對今天是在背詢是在做討論做意見的溝通我們不同的立場有不同的設計的方法我們現在在做溝通我們就有直指問題的核心今天在場的請問哪一位官員有把握就是說今天到最後經過完整的討論程序最後三讀通過的法令一定會被執行"},{"start":20453.729,"end":20467.531,"text":"你可以掛保證被執行嗎我告訴你這個部分就是你剛剛都以農業部長的身分去講說我不能回答假設性的問題你為什麼不能回答一個經過完整立法程序三讀通過的法案為什麼不能執行"},{"start":20468.462,"end":20495.403,"text":"那要看那個法律所設計的這些這些內容是不是在行政行政單位有執行困難的地方如果執行有有障礙的地方的話當然不能執行啊所以你剛才講的假設性問題像一萬五我已經表態一萬五是是做不到的因為從財政支出來講是做不到的更更何況是總預算是沒有通過的我現在就很擔心這種吃自助餐的狀況嚴重影響了大家立法院審查法案的公信力跟狀況"},{"start":20496.724,"end":20524.562,"text":"對不對按照過去的時候當初老年金從第一開始立法我們決定要發的時候如果當初的行政單位就是這種態度的話那我恐怕今天大家也不會有老中經貼的不是嗎我跟你講我也不是今年才站在這個立法院的在過去的立法過程中我們都是盡量的大家找到一個包括行政單位跟立法單位都找到一個共同的一個目標跟共識然後再去落實這個法律案根據憲法權力分立的原則立法是立法院的憲政權利這你應該不會反對吧"},{"start":20525.582,"end":20545.198,"text":"這當然是嘛對不對如果立法院我們當然要徵詢行政機關的意見大家要經過一個完整的討論程序這個大家都不反對這個事情對不對但是問題是如果我們都經歷了這樣完整程序完備之後然後你都還沒有辦法掛保證說這樣子的一個對於老農是好的法案你可以順利執行的話那有沒有違反權力分立的概念"},{"start":20546.661,"end":20572.176,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說如果今天在農民津貼委員過去老農津貼在OK的但是你說提高到多少錢老農津貼過去在增加的過程之中農業部也好或是過去的農委會曾經都提過不同的意見但只要在立法院經過了完整的三讀程序他就會執行你可以比照這樣子的精神嗎你沒看到在委員會討論的時候是大家都有那個共識的"},{"start":20574.725,"end":20590.313,"text":"什麼討論的什麼共同我講的是立法院的程序決定嘛你該走完 該有行政人員通過的法律他就應該要執行嘛你可以要求提高但是你不能說要提高到多少錢因為講到經費就牽扯到我們行政人員必須要去編這相關的預算這個才是重點"},{"start":20592.694,"end":20607.592,"text":"反正所以今天花了這麼長的時間你回答的時候你也沒有辦法保證你一定會執行就對了我們簡單一點我告訴你我們現在目前的一個共識是朝這個方向在走那至於說法案提出來以後我們會再跟我委員會溝通嘛朝這個共識去走哪一個共識"},{"start":20608.453,"end":20635.952,"text":"就是額度提高我現在不同的不同的政黨版本就有不同的共識啊額度會提高提高多少提高是共識誰說了算最後最後大家會有一共沒有說誰說了算我們是以農業部的立場我們會盡量跟委員說明提高一定的金額是大家都可以接受的這是我們的目標嘛我是很擔心這個案子到最後走完了所有的程序三讀通過之後又來個不附屬不執行我告訴你我更擔心的是總預算不執行的話我們審這個案子是一點意義都沒有"},{"start":20636.252,"end":20663.222,"text":"如果這些僵局沒有辦法解決的話總預算怎麼會有好結果呢好啦 這樣講下去也沒有變啦總預算是牽扯到所有的農民的基礎設施的建設喔你辛苦了啦但是如果你們的心態沒有做任何的調整的話朝野的僵局也絕對不會解開的啦我的心態非常正確喔我就希望說預算趕快審有問題我們趕快執行好 謝謝接下來請麥育貞委員 麥育貞委員麥育貞委員不在請王正旭委員來做選擇"},{"start":20673.345,"end":20677.57,"text":"好 謝謝主席還是再請陳部長部長"},{"start":20683.888,"end":20692.274,"text":"喂 部長 實在是很感謝我們政府保證我們登記對我們的農民是很照顧 也是盡量來清楚我們對農民的權益當然請你討論 要繼續拍片我們會繼續溝通"},{"start":20705.324,"end":20717.855,"text":"一開始在有聽保庭做報告之前我們的趙薇來擺今天這個行程因為她親愛的用意趙薇講得非常的清楚針對這個"},{"start":20720.217,"end":20743.176,"text":"法律的部分的修正他講得很好笑等一下這裡有他後來他會向你請教很多事情所以這部分我就簡單給這個部長請教三個問題第一個問題就是老農津貼合理調整的額度跟模式這是第一點第二點就是說之前也有關心可分解的農模跟這個蔬果貼紙"},{"start":20745.317,"end":20764.917,"text":"目前在推動的進行第三部分就是說我們的氣候變遷對農業的行政影響也很明顯我們目前有什麼樣的發表的方向今天有這三點要跟部長來請教一下因為我們今天的主題就是老農心的合理調整的額度跟模式嘛"},{"start":20765.698,"end":20783.443,"text":"差不多所有委員都向你請教過了不過也要注意因為我們到113年目前勞動津貼給付的人數51萬我也是農村子弟嘛包括我們台南現在有67000故鄉52000中華63000 芬林48000我自己來的 我自己有45000的鄉親 屏東51000的"},{"start":20792.186,"end":20803.495,"text":"每一個月都領的是八千一百十塊我們知道這是一定要調整這個調整是怎樣最好這就是我們今天大家互相討論不僅是說我們對農民要有交代意願當然我們也要了解政府到底有多少企業可以使用當然每一個委員都不一樣的想法我們就是照程序來做就是要怎樣做"},{"start":20819.515,"end":20844.035,"text":"所以針對我們這問題 合理的額度 調整模式還有這個排富機制 還有裁員規劃可以不妨簡單說明一下嗎我簡單說一句 兩部分 一個部分是額度 一個部分是排富那額度的部分分作兩個 一個是它的基礎 太低第二個就是說 它的調整的那個機制"},{"start":20847.478,"end":20870.651,"text":"那額度的部分我們希望說能夠拉高現在是從上一次開始起算的那個7000塊然後加每4年的CPI那我們希望說這次能夠做適度的額度的提高然後調整的時間點現在是4年一次我們希望2年下來檢討2年的CPI超過3%或5%的時候就啟動那個調整的機制那剩下的2年看"},{"start":20876.954,"end":20890.622,"text":"CPI成長多少我們繼續調這是額度的部分排富的部分因為過去都沒在處理那個所得跟財產的十幾年都沒處理所以這邊我們一次把它到位的處理就是說"},{"start":20892.463,"end":20910.539,"text":"那個所得的部分會針對過去累積的CPI差不多16%都做成條財產的部分過去累積的大概百分之六十幾%我們也會一併的來調整那希望說這樣的一個調整能夠讓更多的農民能夠領到這些農民退休儲金"},{"start":20910.879,"end":20932.86,"text":"是 所以聽起來是很合理希望大家能夠合理地來討論要趕快讓這個好的發展可以通過這是第一部分感謝博鳳這方面的說明再來就是這個可分解的農謀跟這個蔬果標籤推動的狀況因為我們也知道這個可分解的有機農謀對我們將來農業有一個很重要的所在"},{"start":20935.843,"end":20943.889,"text":"之前有請教過農業部的書面報告裡面有說到一些有機農業進行的過程裡面我家裡也要再進行水稻所以推廣這個有機水稻的部分要怎麼處理比較好我們也知道要進水稻一定要守草"},{"start":20959.661,"end":20979.217,"text":"過去那樣鄉親實在是很辛苦像這邊在外的過程裡面 手操兩遍三遍可以臨時分委員也請教手操過程工作的過程裡面很多都是腰不好 膝蓋不好等等一些職業病都會造出來"},{"start":20979.677,"end":21000.245,"text":"我們現在知道有一種叫做紫緻的薏草錫那就是說現在有機嘛盡量就不要用農藥去除草嘛所以有很好的作用在日本開發出來我們台灣目前也有兩間的公司在做包括中華紫江跟政農"},{"start":21001.025,"end":21016.85,"text":"所以到底我們現在台灣有多少屬於有機水稻他使用這樣的這個材質的百分比不知道 差不多有多少你現在要怎麼推廣這部分是不是 麻煩保長來說明一下我跟委員報告就是說現在我們做有機的水稻的時候最困難的就是說"},{"start":21022.503,"end":21044.361,"text":"不然補下去以後有些雜草嘛所以現在我們試驗改良商所跟日本的合作就有一些就是溢草石有的補溫就是能夠跟經濟水中的經濟跟這個紫質的溢草石coating在一起補下去以後變成直播的方式它改變了我們現在的水中的模式"},{"start":21045.202,"end":21074.681,"text":"所以現在目前我們還是用示範的方式在協助推廣因為大面具去做的時候還要精算它的成本因為這紙質現在目前不普遍不普遍的時候那價值比較貴價值貴的話農民就比較不想用所以這個部分我們會持續請我們街上團隊來合作特別是加一些以前有在生產的有沒有這個公司來合作來做這是我們希望來做到的"},{"start":21074.901,"end":21084.971,"text":"所以都有一些示範方案示範方案現在在處理好 因為感覺起來這是對我們的有機農業未來長期來講是比較好對我們所有的環境也很好所以如果可以這樣做應該是對農民有很大的幫助對我們的農業好 這個麻煩董事長繼續來處理"},{"start":21095.582,"end":21111.145,"text":"第二點就是之前也有說過這個蔬果貼紙我們知道蔬果基本上有兩部分一部分是我們自己種的要由外國進口一部分是由外國進口我們對外國的東西當然那些貼紙我們比較難要求外國要求是最好不過起碼我們本土的這個貼紙部分目前不知道有比較分解材質的推進狀況還是沒有一部分要怎麼把它落實到產業"},{"start":21123.827,"end":21146.383,"text":"我向委員報告現在農業部的農產品有在做貼紙就是我們的產銷履歷及優基那當然有其他的標章可能是其他的部會我們現在先對我們的產銷履歷及優基的標章我也覺得說如果用一些可分解的這些材質的話對環境是比較好的"},{"start":21147.083,"end":21171.372,"text":"我們現在也有跟一些鄉鄉在討論看有沒有辦法做中央也是介紹 新聞跟介紹的部分所以這個部分我們阿邦要塞的時候可能會先對有機的來塞有機的因為本身對環境比較好你用的一些資材也是有機的我也希望說它的標籤也是有比較可分解的材質這個部分我們來努力的"},{"start":21172.132,"end":21183.837,"text":"對啊 也讓我們的社會才知道大家為了我們的環境給一些介紹大家是不是可以大家一起來分擔嘛這些麻煩農業部多宣傳好 最後一個問題就是這個氣候變遷這個氣候變遷大家都跑不去農業影響也不是那麼大"},{"start":21194.381,"end":21223.861,"text":"我們最近有去嘉義大學去了解過知道嘉義大學跟台南的龍改廠研發一些耐旱的水稻叫做嘉大台南二號深珠米吃那個米的感覺其實口味很好還可以做酒黃文宜教授很用心不只可以抗旱他們這些東西出來可以解水還可以減少碳排放"},{"start":21224.661,"end":21238.308,"text":"這部分中來是很需要台灣有更多的這些方面的推廣這部分目前不知道農業部針對於這個相對的因應氣候變遷帶來的衝擊有什麼比較新的目標可以讓我們國人知道我們面對的氣候變遷本身第一點的部分就是說我們的拼盡有辦法去"},{"start":21247.412,"end":21266.097,"text":"比較耐熱的 比較節水的部分這個部分我們的研究團隊就是我們的工廠一直有好好在合作包括你剛剛說的九二大項在合作希望說我們有比較多的不同地區的這些品種可以適合地區來種這是第一個第二點就是說"},{"start":21267.617,"end":21281.942,"text":"我們的天氣裡面本身的監控的系統我們要比較好的就是說我們的預測的監控的系統如果比較好的話可以讓農民早一點去做預防是 今天長老紅胎比較有時間去預防"},{"start":21283.082,"end":21299.731,"text":"第三點就是說因為一些天氣我們沒辦法預測的時候我們希望說我們會推廣我們的一些設施栽培你如果要溫泉裡面的時候你就比較不怕外面的風和雨嘛所以這個保溫農業部的一些政策的措施都有在協助啦這最美的一點就是說"},{"start":21302.292,"end":21324.76,"text":"農業部的相關的研究不只是我們該農場的部分有跟學校去合作我們希望能成立一個比較跨域的一個合作團隊來處理是是是這個跨部會的部分嘛不然就會對於我們這個因應氣候變遷造成很大的辛苦的部分那這個麻煩博定謝謝 感謝委員 支持農業部謝謝 感謝博定 感謝主席謝謝"},{"start":21330.582,"end":21351.819,"text":"要不要休息五分鐘你不用別人不認愛 不能讓別人遭不住你有沒有不理我們剛剛休息十二點四幾分現在過兩個鐘頭了是不是要上個廁所 需要去休息五分鐘休息五分鐘"},{"start":21669.403,"end":21674.247,"text":"好 我們繼續開會下一位麻煩劉建國召委來發言好 謝謝主席部長你先坐著 沒關係 你休息一下我知道你很堅強也很有耐性 也很堅忍"},{"start":21691.158,"end":21719.8,"text":"那對華麗的本質上你也非常清楚因為你是一步一步上來的那剛剛在整個你接受很多不分朝野的委員催選過程裡面我覺得我多數都是同意贊成但是有一點我不太贊成這個是這樣講今天排審當然我們是尋答我們當然是期待院板要趕快進來那院板可能我先要提醒兩件事情第一個禮拜四就是有院會"},{"start":21721.77,"end":21748.791,"text":"對嘛 就放假嘛 對不對好 再來又會遇到下下個禮拜的院會又放假啦所以這個是不是要建議這個院會要加開啦還是改日 改日開嘛這樣才會 會承諾部長所講的這個會期我們才有辦法把這個這個勞動津貼整個相關料處理的面向都可以處理在這個會期去完成啦好 這是第一件事情主席請問一下"},{"start":21749.691,"end":21768.991,"text":"沒關係啦 你吃多了 不好意思 你吃多了第二件事情是這樣就是說剛剛特別提到這個其實也是在前幾天開記者會的時候我特別提出來今天部分草野的委員都期待要將老農津貼這個相關的這樣的一個的金額去提高"},{"start":21769.711,"end":21783.383,"text":"這大家都肯定也正面然後第二件事情還要針對這個整個檢討不應該在四年來做處理甚至要縮短這個期程那第三個我們就是要鬆綁這個排戶也是說讓這個情靈者的這個資格在排戶這個過程裡面我們可以更寬鬆的這樣的一個認定還有這個"},{"start":21793.518,"end":21806.725,"text":"自用住宅的免扣除額可以再提高我想法條裡面大致上有涵蓋這三個面向唯獨總預算如果沒有審查沒有通過牽涉的是第一項"},{"start":21808.07,"end":21831.352,"text":"牽涉是第一項但是我們第二項第三項基本上還是不會因為總預算未過不能處理啦所以這部分我知道這部分跟部長的看法有所不一樣啦但應該我講的也應該算是比較正確那第三件事情是這樣我就覺得很奇怪啦今天既然大家都希望把這個對老龍的照顧"},{"start":21832.373,"end":21852.485,"text":"要往這個更高的這樣的一個津貼的金額去做提高那應該基本上目標都一致啊做法也應該應該要趨之一致嘛怎麼會怎麼會總預算案到現在都不審查然後來漫天喊價的說老農今天要增加多少增加多少"},{"start":21853.325,"end":21865.914,"text":"這個其實到頭來自相矛盾,到頭來社會包含老農,我們的老農民其實都很清楚的,都很了解,老農津貼是怎樣有的,是對當時開始的,多個金額開始的,當當時就對了,是怎麼變七清,是怎麼變四當檢討七敗,"},{"start":21877.39,"end":21886.51,"text":"這大家來留感回想一下或許有些人的記憶是比較容易當萬的但是多數人的記憶還是會刻骨銘心因為過去沒有"},{"start":21887.751,"end":21908.5,"text":"後來有嘛後來有的時候3000一直提升到7000嘛對不對到最後為什麼會是你要檢討一次按照CPI有增加我們這個相對的這樣的一個間貼就會提高這是下降是沒有跟著調降的嘛那個時候就是不希望遇到選舉"},{"start":21910.349,"end":21939.078,"text":"大家在那邊漫天喊假嘛所以才會把這樣的華率定成這個樣子就四年檢討一次嘛那我們今天就是要解決我們不只要把津貼提高我們要解決這個四年才檢討一次的這樣的制度所以這個是大家大家必須要去充分討論嘛那當然很多人用一般縣市的最低生活費最低生活費來對比現在的這個老農津貼這其實有一點"},{"start":21939.978,"end":21968.617,"text":"坦白講這是很奇怪的比喻方式我必須這麼說我剛來立委員的時候在這個委員會我最早排審的就是這個社會救助法那社會救助法就牽涉有三個面向有三類人第一個就是低收入戶第二個叫中低收入戶那第三個就是金融補助以前叫特殊婦女金融補助那最低社會在這個法律裡面是講什麼東西是在講說"},{"start":21970.218,"end":21998.826,"text":"有符合低收入戶跟中低收入資格者我們先講低收入戶你按照你的家庭人口數每一個人 每一個人他的收入沒有超過當年度公告最低生活費的1.5倍條件一啦條件一啦生活費是拿來做這樣的一個條件資格的比喻不是把最低生活費拿來做補助的啦金額啦"},{"start":21999.767,"end":22011.108,"text":"所以要用比喻 大家要講得清楚 大家要對這件事了解怎麼會說一般先是最低生活費已經來到一萬五所以老農今天就應該怎麼樣"},{"start":22012.611,"end":22032.132,"text":"你如果真的今天有心要去幫這些農民幫這些老農可以在他65歲退休之後得到應該政府有更多這樣的照顧那我想這個法律裡面有很多部分我們必須去了解然後去做相關的一些討論之後然後去做調整嘛"},{"start":22033.093,"end":22055.513,"text":"而不是用這樣來去做這樣的對比這是第一件事情那第二件事情我在處理第二個大幅的修正就是生權法那個時候修正的弧度超過這個法律的三分之一我們還用了會前會還從這個下午兩點然後把各部位找了因為相關的設計層面太多了"},{"start":22056.133,"end":22084.461,"text":"有交通的有經濟的有公共空間的有內政部的等等等我們是從兩點開到晚上十點是主條的大家取得有共識不分草不分野因為大家要幫助身心障礙者的朋友那身心障礙者也有所謂的中低收入戶身心障礙者常這樣生活津貼等他的依據剛剛我講的第二條件還是以這個戶籍裡面的人每一個人平均算起來"},{"start":22084.921,"end":22103.886,"text":"他没有超过最低生活费的1.5倍就是有低收入低的资格2.5倍就是中低收入的这个申请资格所以我要表达说你用这个来对比老龙津贴那基本上是不对的第三件事情是这样"},{"start":22104.758,"end":22125.146,"text":"我真的是不清楚 今天如果國民黨籍的所有的委員真的希望老榮津貼 在本會期成為部長所講的 我們要力拚這個會期把津貼的金額去提高提高多少 姑且先不談 就是要提高那你怎麼會總預算 到現在還不審查"},{"start":22129.797,"end":22148.682,"text":"那你一定想說這個新的計畫還是延續性的新增機會只要送來立法院經過審查後通過不再實現你當然也可以講這些話我沒有異議不過我要特別提醒如果是可以這樣"},{"start":22149.822,"end":22163.073,"text":"國家在審查預算然後在面對相關法律過程裡面然後有牽涉到法律通過之後有牽涉到任何的預算的增加與否都必須要用這種方式來做處理這個國家是會亂掉啦"},{"start":22165.019,"end":22192.477,"text":"然後農民也不希望有看到這樣的局面然後也讓農民覺得你不就真的抱起林花園你就要跟他同歸如果不跟他抱你不就繼續剩下的就對了所以我想我用一點點比較長的時間來提醒這件事情我今天敢排審下去我坦白講啦不好意思 坦白講我今天敢排下去也當然是跟"},{"start":22193.777,"end":22203.624,"text":"農業部跟陳部長跟相關的官員有討論過也跟很多的委員有討論過即便願版來不及提出來我們還是一樣可以審啦"},{"start":22205.1,"end":22229.226,"text":"我們還是一樣可以審啦 怎麼不能審重點重點就是要提高多少金額當然要行政單位去衡量財政狀況嘛然後你們也可以認可的這樣的一個經費是裡面可以去支應的嘛然後可以可長可久的嘛我不是現在這次會期通過之後不到半年不到一年說經費缺少了還是說沒有經費嘛"},{"start":22230.166,"end":22256.218,"text":"那所以我只是要把今天為什麼要把老農津貼趕快排審因為我們希望與時俱進我們也希望這個物價指數然後相關的這些波動當然對老農的這一個老農津貼來講有一點有一點銜接不上對不上啦對不上這個不給基礎的標準所以我們才會趕快的在這個會期來排審然後不只這樣我們還是要顧青龍所以這個"},{"start":22258.962,"end":22282.958,"text":"這個禮拜一的時候在經濟委員會也針對農民除菁的相關的法律修正案那大家也有共識然後也出了委員會所以對青農的照顧經濟委會已經在處理這由陳廷輝委員 陳廷輝召委來排審那對老農津貼的部分就在 主責在未還那當然我就趕快來排審我們對青農要照顧我們對老農也一樣照顧對青農照顧 而後青農也會變成老農"},{"start":22285.58,"end":22306.398,"text":"所以這一塊要顧 這一塊要顧兩個都要顧起來才讓從農的所有的這些我們的專業的農民有得到更好的這樣的一個保障也看得到更美好的這樣的未來然後才不會讓我們的從農的人口持續從108年一直到現在已經幾乎每年是跌破"},{"start":22307.659,"end":22331.097,"text":"是減少了快1萬人到現在這個資料就很清楚嘛從以前的1084將近56萬現在去年年底的統計是已經跌破40萬了那當然農業部剛剛有提出很多這個相關的一些鼓勵的還有要這個讓從農的人數要增加漁火的這個計畫但是那個KPI我不曉得"},{"start":22331.803,"end":22355.89,"text":"我是訓練完的你們把這個人數算進去但是實際上做到一半了哪是做不到半年了就已經在尼龍的那個有沒有扣起來我相信沒有扣掉啦所以再一來一往這裡就半斤六萬五你到現在這裡處理差不多三萬筒喔應該是不到三萬啦現在累積嘛兩萬四耶你再怎麼銜接都銜接不起來"},{"start":22358.454,"end":22384.62,"text":"也補不足啦也補不快啦然後台灣的人口的快速結構的應變不只是農業嘛很多的產業面向的人口結構都很快速的在轉變在這個過程裡面坦白講很多的政策我們必須要用很快速的做這樣的一個積極的因應還有很多我們必須要下門要就像為什麼以前叫農委會為什麼我們要把農委會提升變成農業部"},{"start":22386.807,"end":22410.623,"text":"為什麼為什麼農業就必須要有個部會來整個掌舵為什麼我們要預算以前一千多億一千出億慢慢的然後佔了老農青年老農青年就已經佔了一半以上為什麼我們要逐年去把這個農業部的預算一直往上提升農業已經委屈太久了農業已經委屈太久了所以今天由部長掌政的情況之下就必須適時的來幫農民幫我們的農業來跟行政院來做這樣的一個"},{"start":22417.528,"end":22441.91,"text":"這樣堅定的然後積極的訴求很多的事情我們可能要用最快的速度來做這樣的處理所以我們才會快速的把這個老農津貼排成到我們的委員會來所以希望今天可以透過充分的討論然後盡快的讓這個會期可以通過甚至於未來的預算都沒有問題可以追溯到明年1月以後就開始來實施這是最好不過的嘛"},{"start":22442.31,"end":22457.872,"text":"我相信大家如果願意朝這個目標來打拚來朝這個目標來做努力我想朝野的委員這個反對到現在不審預算的委員應該是要被要被說服的要被提醒的也希望他們可以"},{"start":22458.212,"end":22481.285,"text":"加入我們要購農民的兼顧青農老農的行列趕快去溝通是不是這個種植專案趕快來做這個相關的審查才是真正的在為老農今天要提高要放寬這個排入條款相關的這個免扣出口都可以得到更寬鬆的認定那才是真正在幫農民不然今天在這邊講的"},{"start":22482.586,"end":22496.021,"text":"沒有照這樣的一個步調在做其實基本上都是假的啦那是在騙農民啦農民不是看不到啦我相信今天這樣的一個委員會很多的委員都已經有表達相關的意見那我只是在這邊做這樣的一個補充啦謝謝"},{"start":22498.533,"end":22513.322,"text":"好謝謝劉建國在為匆匆容容的發言下一位請圖宣基委員圖宣基委員圖宣基委員不在下一位請張七凱委員張七凱委員張七凱委員不在下一位請陳冠廷委員發言謝謝委員我們請部長好又請陳部長"},{"start":22529.665,"end":22539.376,"text":"喂 部長好部長我們剛剛看到這個劉委員有提到我們現在的從容人口那已經從108年的56萬人降到40萬人"},{"start":22540.578,"end":22564.013,"text":"那我們提出來的這個腦農津貼相關的這些法案我們是希望說把這個糧食安全土地地利維護那長期間低利潤但對國家高產值的這些從業人口那在他們走到晚年老年的時候他有一個津貼那可以鼓勵更多的人在這一個農業上面來去努力"},{"start":22564.693,"end":22580.65,"text":"那我這是跟蔡委員我們稍早他也有做資訊他的修法版本的主軸就是希望說調整為每個月是一萬兩千元那過去從今天依照物價週期剛才部長也有提到從四年改為兩年一次"},{"start":22581.471,"end":22605.008,"text":"那排富的這個門檻是希望能夠做取消那我必須要特別提到那從2016年我們的這個國民的這個應該是說不要想國民所得我們講政府的總預算他已經從1.8兆那到去年大概是3.15兆左右所以說我們可以看到這一個提升的幅度是很大的那我們過去所擔心的"},{"start":22605.988,"end":22631.643,"text":"會不會排擠掉其他的公務預算隨著我們國家的經濟成長跟國家預算的成長我認為是有條件來做相應的處理把這個我們的津貼從過去的這種數字來從七千二零二四年是七千五百五那提高到未來的一萬兩千塊錢那我們也知道說剛才部長有提到如果說做這樣子的調整的話"},{"start":22632.483,"end":22639.428,"text":"那大概是會多了120億左右是不是247億左右那以部長你們考量現在的財政247億是能夠做調整的嗎"},{"start":22652.182,"end":22675.616,"text":"不過我跟委員報告我們現在農業部的預算年度的預算如果以今年來講是1682億包括追加減以後那其中大概有800億已經是在做所謂的那個議法律義務支出的這些經費那如果再增加的這個200將近250億左右的話那相對的我們整個議法律義務支出就會高達1000億以上"},{"start":22677.637,"end":22694.659,"text":"那以整個農業部的一個預算來講如果說你的依法律支出的這些相關的這些經費如果超過五成以上的話我覺得它的財政結構就會被扭曲因為我們要花更多的這些經費去協助現在目前從事農業的這些基礎措施"},{"start":22696.021,"end":22712.082,"text":"那部長其實我們剛剛提到從這個國民黨的他們直接提到一萬五嘛到我們提到的說是希望說從四年一次改為兩年一次那或者是有的委員們提到每月一萬二那有的是說"},{"start":22713.914,"end":22733.181,"text":"1萬那各種不同的數字我們應該都有做過評估那你認為說在各種不同的數字再去做一個權衡之後1萬元的提高是不是有可能做到的我想我們在初步規劃我覺得我們現在目前是在現在委員的版本的一個中間我想1萬元應該是有那個機會"},{"start":22734.561,"end":22753.895,"text":"謝謝部長因為我還是要再強調他是針對這個農業的從業人員那所以他不僅僅是所謂的這個是屬於社會福利的部分不是喔他不僅如此而已他因為是因為我們一直提到現在的農業的從業人口是在4.6%的人口那隨著這幾次的風災下去越來越多的離農"},{"start":22754.776,"end":22773.793,"text":"那如果說未來我們還不能夠給他一些基礎的保障的話那我會非常擔心那所以為什麼我們提出來跟行政院也好跟農業部也好把這些數字先做一個統整就是希望說不要再排擠其他公務運算的條件之下還是也可以給這些農民朋友們一個最基礎的保障"},{"start":22774.133,"end":22793.002,"text":"所以我們是這樣子的考量之下所以不是說我們滿天開價一萬五兩萬這樣子是因為我們相信說已經跟農業部跟行政院我們共同討論下來可以走到一個兩方都能夠接觸的一個底線所以今天看到部長有稍微提到如果在這樣子的財政允許之下一萬元基本上是還有機會課金的"},{"start":22794.086,"end":22813.042,"text":"對 這個就是我剛才一直在強調的就是說我們行政院有行政院的版本那委員 不同的委員有不同的版本那我們應該找到一個大家都能夠有共識的這個方向而且是對我們農民好的部分那當然很多東西不可能一步到位嘛那我們有設計更多的一個誘因的時候我都希望爭取委員的支持"},{"start":22813.622,"end":22840.498,"text":"其實包含像公糧收購也好或者是這個津貼也好我們都不希望說一次超過我們政府的權限跟政府的能力那到時候什麼都沒有既沒有辦法替農民爭取到權益那也沒有辦法進步那我會覺得很可惜所以我們這個從老農津貼到公糧收購公糧收購已經增加到1.5塊錢每公頃多2萬元到現在的老農津貼未來可能會增加到1萬元我想這是我們會對農業部的肯定也希望說"},{"start":22841.378,"end":22867.695,"text":"部長再努力啊如果總預算盡快排成之後我們希望這個1萬塊可以盡快的來給我們這些農民朋友來一個幫助謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝陳冠廷委員的發言謝謝部長的答詢下一位請徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈委員不在下一位請王美惠王美惠王美惠委員不在"},{"start":22869.525,"end":22896.441,"text":"下一位請連寬恆連寬恆連寬恆連寬恆委員不在下一位李柏毅李柏毅李柏毅委員不在下一位請葉元之葉元之葉元之委員不在下一位請黃潔黃潔黃潔委員不在下一位請陳素月陳素月陳素月委員不在我們我們趙委員在我會在我會在"},{"start":22904.383,"end":22922.876,"text":"好 本日會議詢討全部結束那委員有楊瓊英 廖偉翔 李柏毅 圖全吉 邱振軍 邱益穎 蘇巧慧 徐欣穎 陳素月 王美惠所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在作為下決議第一說明及詢討完畢"},{"start":22923.917,"end":22950.732,"text":"第二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關以兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定第三老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條第三條及第四條條文修正草案既有三十九案另則其繼續審查我這邊還是要拜託部長可能行政院那邊還是要溝通一下不然如果兩個兩次都放假就真的會"},{"start":22952.094,"end":22956.749,"text":"會拖到時間 這邊再問部長好 那本次會議到此結束 現在散會"}]}},{"id":"166676","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166676","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60cafd3db16697a6b88f4e93bf07b6087f1e7720c7178afcf338f9d5c79002bdd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"14:52:00 - 14:57:44","影片長度":"00:05:44","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T14:52:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T14:57:44+08:00","duration":344,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.970343750000001,"end":11.438468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.792843750000003,"end":12.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.51346875,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.566593750000003,"end":29.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.629718750000002,"end":33.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.21971875,"end":69.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.37034375,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.34159375,"end":93.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.80534375,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.12096875,"end":127.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.17784375000002,"end":182.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.89034375,"end":144.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.09221875,"end":148.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.01909375000002,"end":190.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.81971875000002,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.28221875000003,"end":213.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.75846875000002,"end":205.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.36471875,"end":222.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.20721875,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.84784375,"end":226.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.64096875,"end":301.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.53659375,"end":337.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.39596875,"end":310.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.68284375,"end":338.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.79221875,"end":343.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.95596875,"end":346.03596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.429,"end":27.414,"text":"請陳冠廷委員發言謝謝委員 我們請部長好 又請陳部長喂 部長好部長我們剛剛看到這個劉委員有提到我們現在的從容人口那已經從108年的56萬人降到40萬人"},{"start":28.635,"end":44.152,"text":"那我們提出來的這個腦農津貼相關的這些法案我們是希望說把這個糧食安全土地地利維護那長期間低利潤但對國家高產值的這些從業人口那在他們"},{"start":44.853,"end":68.688,"text":"走到晚年老年的時候他有一個津貼讓他可以鼓勵更多的人在這一個農業上面來去努力那我這是跟蔡委員我們稍早他也有做資訊他的修法版本的主軸就是希望說調整為每個月是一萬兩千元那過去從津貼依照物價週期剛才部長也有提到從四年改為兩年一次"},{"start":69.528,"end":93.065,"text":"那排富的這個門檻是希望能夠做取消那我必須要特別提到那從2016年我們的這個國民的這個應該是說不要想國民所得我們講政府的總預算他已經從1.8兆那到去年大概是3.15兆左右所以說我們可以看到這一個提升的幅度是很大的那我們過去所擔心的"},{"start":94.046,"end":119.701,"text":"會不會排擠掉其他的公務預算隨著我們國家的經濟成長跟國家預算的成長我認為是有條件來做相應的處理把這一個我們的津貼從過去的這種數字來從七千二零二四年是七千五百五那提高到未來的一萬兩千塊錢那我們也知道說剛才部長有提到如果說做這樣子調整的話"},{"start":120.521,"end":127.443,"text":"那大概是會多了120億左右是不是247億左右那以部長你們考量現在的財政247億是能夠做調整的嗎"},{"start":140.239,"end":155.898,"text":"不過我跟委員報告我們現在農業部的預算年度的預算如果以今年來講是1682億包括追加減以後那其中大概有800億已經是在做所謂的那個議法律義務支出的這些經費那如果再增加的這個200"},{"start":157.639,"end":182.694,"text":"將近250億左右的話那相對的我們整個議法律義務支出就會高達1000億以上那以整個農業部的一個預算來講如果說你的議法律義務支出的這些相關的這些經費如果超過五成以上的話我覺得他的財政結構就會被扭曲因為我們要花更多的這些經費去協助現在目前從事農業的這些基礎措施"},{"start":184.079,"end":200.137,"text":"那部長其實我們剛剛提到從這個國民黨的他們直接提到一萬五嘛到我們提到的說是希望說從四年一次改為兩年一次那或者是有的委員們提到每月一萬二那有的是說"},{"start":201.971,"end":220.737,"text":"1萬那各種不同的數字我們應該都有做過評估那你認為說在各種不同的數字再去做一個權衡之後1萬元的提高是不是有可能做到的我想我們在初步規劃我覺得我們現在目前是在現在委員的版本的一個中間我想1萬元應該是有那個機會好"},{"start":222.618,"end":241.956,"text":"謝謝部長因為我還是要再強調他是針對這個農業的從業人員所以他不僅僅是所謂的這個是屬於社會福利的部分不是喔他不僅如此而已他因為是因為我們一直提到現在的農業的從業人口是在4.6%的人口那隨著這幾次的風災下去越來越多的離農"},{"start":242.817,"end":261.808,"text":"那如果說未來我們還不能夠給他一些基礎的保障的話那我會非常擔心那所以為什麼我們提出來跟行政院也好跟農業部也好把這些數字先做一個統整就是希望說不要再排擠其他公務運算的條件之下還是也可以給這些農民朋友們一個最基礎的保障"},{"start":262.188,"end":280.497,"text":"所以我們是這樣子的考量之下所以不是說我們滿天開價一萬五兩萬這樣子是因為我們相信說已經跟農業部跟行政院我們共同討論下來可以走到一個兩方都能夠接觸的一個底線所以今天看到部長有稍微提到如果在這樣子的財政允許之下一萬元基本上是還有機會課金的"},{"start":282.141,"end":301.096,"text":"對 這個就是我剛才一直在強調的就是說我們行政院有行政院的版本那委員 不同的委員有不同的版本那我們應該找到一個大家都能夠有共識的這個方向而且是對我們農民好的部分那當然很多東西不可能一步到位嘛那我們有設計更多的一個誘因的時候我都希望爭取委員的支持"},{"start":301.656,"end":328.562,"text":"其實包含像公糧收購也好或者是這個津貼也好我們都不希望說一次超過我們政府的權限跟政府的能力那到時候什麼都沒有既沒有辦法替農民爭取到權益那也沒有辦法進步那我會覺得很可惜所以我們這個從老農津貼到公糧收購公糧收購已經增加到1.5塊錢每公頃多2萬元到現在的老農津貼未來可能會增加到1萬元我想這是我們會對農業部的肯定也希望說"},{"start":329.423,"end":345.391,"text":"部長再努力啊如果總預算盡快排成之後我們希望這個1萬塊可以盡快的來給我們這些農民朋友來一個幫助謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝陳坤甯委員的發言謝謝部長的答詢下一位請"}]}},{"id":"166675","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166675","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60ad0cfedc30e8f8a28f4e93bf07b6087f1e7720c7178afcf3f4546a15fbe44a3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"14:38:00 - 14:51:52","影片長度":"00:13:52","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T14:38:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T14:51:52+08:00","duration":832,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.19409375,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.320343750000003,"end":15.606593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.62346875,"end":48.664718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.643468750000004,"end":55.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.853468750000005,"end":135.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.79034375,"end":167.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.15659375,"end":190.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.59596875000003,"end":197.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.48096875000002,"end":201.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.67034375,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.23096875000002,"end":214.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.55846875,"end":216.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.11096875,"end":237.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.86721875,"end":297.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.11096875000004,"end":302.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.15659375,"end":315.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.72846875000005,"end":316.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.56784375,"end":325.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.37659375000004,"end":327.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.67596875000004,"end":339.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.55159375,"end":360.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.86909375000005,"end":391.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.88534375,"end":405.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.40221875000003,"end":442.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.66221875,"end":445.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.64909375,"end":449.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.78346875000005,"end":450.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.25159375000004,"end":451.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.90971875,"end":456.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.36034375,"end":489.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.30034375,"end":491.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.61221875,"end":493.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.02971875000003,"end":496.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.78034375000004,"end":498.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.05846875000003,"end":499.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.44659375000003,"end":527.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.74596875,"end":528.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.0959687500001,"end":530.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.7665937500001,"end":532.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.0615937499999,"end":535.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.81221875,"end":585.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.86346875,"end":670.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.76159375,"end":677.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.7140937500001,"end":681.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.2703437499999,"end":684.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.81846875,"end":685.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.1515937500001,"end":687.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.0078437500001,"end":689.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.77971875,"end":709.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.4053437500002,"end":713.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.65346875,"end":733.04721875},{"speaker":"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謝謝主席部長你先坐著 沒關係 你休息一下我知道你很堅強也很有耐性 也很堅忍對華麗的本質上你也非常清楚因為你是一步一步上來的"},{"start":25.163,"end":47.812,"text":"那剛剛在整個你接受很多不分朝野的委員催選過程裡面我覺得我多數都是同意贊成但是有一點我不太贊成這個是這樣講今天排審當然我們是尋答我們當然是期待院板要趕快進來那院板可能我先要提醒兩件事情第一個禮拜四就是有院會"},{"start":49.81,"end":76.812,"text":"對嘛 就放假嘛 對不對好 再來又會遇到下下個禮拜的院會又放假啦所以這個是不是要建議這個院會要加開啦還是改日開嘛這樣才會承諾部長所講的這個會期我們才有辦法把這個勞動津貼整個相關料處理的面向都可以處理在這個會期去完成啦好 這是第一件事情主席請問一下"},{"start":77.712,"end":102.107,"text":"沒關係 你吃多了 不好意思 你吃多了第二件事情是這樣就是說剛剛特別提到這個其實也是在前幾天開記者會的時候我特別提出來今天部分草野的委員都期待要將老農津貼這個相關的這樣的一個的金額去提高這個大家都肯定 也正面嘛然後第二件事情還要針對這個整個檢討不應該再四年"},{"start":105.248,"end":111.393,"text":"來做處理 甚至要縮短這個期程那第三個我們就是要鬆綁這個排戶也是說讓這個情靈者的這個資格在排戶這個過程裡面我們可以更寬鬆的這樣的一個認定還有這個"},{"start":121.56,"end":134.781,"text":"自用住宅的免扣出額可以再提高我想法條裡面大致上有涵蓋這三個面向唯獨總預算如果沒有審查沒有通過牽涉的是第一項"},{"start":136.088,"end":164.554,"text":"牽涉是第一項 但是我們第二項 第三項基本上還是不會因為總預算未過 不能處理所以這部分 我覺得這部分跟部長的看法有所不一樣但應該我講的也應該算是比較正確那第三件事情是這樣 我就覺得很奇怪今天既然大家都希望把這個對老人的照顧要往這個更高的這樣的一個今天的金額去做提高"},{"start":165.254,"end":190.719,"text":"那應該基本上目標都一致啊做法也應該要趨之一致嘛怎麼會總預算案到現在都不審查然後來漫天喊價的說老農今天要增加多少增加多少這個其實到頭來自相矛盾到頭來社會包含老農我們的老農民其實想都很清楚的啦"},{"start":191.67,"end":214.526,"text":"都很了解 流氓津貼是怎樣有的是對當時開始的 多少金額開始的當當時就對了 為什麼會變七千為什麼會變四年檢討一百這大家來了解 回想一下或許有些人的記憶是比較容易彈彎的但是多數人的記憶還是會刻骨銘心因為過去沒有"},{"start":215.789,"end":236.523,"text":"後來有嘛後來有的時候3千一直提升到7千嘛對不對到最後為什麼會4.1要檢討一次按照CPI有增加我們這個相對的這樣的一個間貼就會提高這是下降是沒有跟著調降的嘛那個時候就是不希望遇到選舉"},{"start":238.37,"end":252.757,"text":"大家在那邊漫天喊假嘛所以才會把這樣的華率定成這個樣子就四年檢討一次嘛那我們今天就是要解決我們不只要把津貼提高我們要解決這個四年才檢討一次的這樣的制度"},{"start":253.377,"end":279.694,"text":"所以這個是大家必須要去充分討論嘛那當然很多人用一般縣市的最低生活費來對比現在的這個老容津貼這其實有一點坦白講這是很奇怪的比喻方式啦我必須這麼說我剛來立委員的時候在這個委員會我最早排審的就是這個社會救助法"},{"start":280.234,"end":302.293,"text":"那社會救助法就牽涉有三個面向有三類人第一個就是低收入戶第二個叫中低收入戶那第三個就是金融補助以前叫特殊婦女金融補助那最低生活費在這個法律裡面是講什麼東西是在講說有符合低收入戶跟中低收入資格者我們先講低收入戶"},{"start":303.234,"end":326.691,"text":"你按照你的家庭人口數每一個人他的收入沒有超過當年度公告最低生活費的1.5倍條件一啦條件一啦生活費是拿來做這樣的一個條件資格的比喻不是把最低生活費拿來做補助的啦金額啦"},{"start":327.788,"end":339.153,"text":"所以要用比喻 大家要講清楚啦大家要對這個就是了解怎麼會說一般先是最低生活費已經來到一萬五所以老農今天就應該怎麼樣"},{"start":340.632,"end":360.155,"text":"你如果真的今天有心要去幫這些農民幫這些老農可以在他65歲退休之後得到應該政府有更多這樣的照顧那我想這個法律裡面有很多部分我們必須去了解然後去做相關的一些討論之後然後去做調整嘛"},{"start":361.116,"end":383.536,"text":"而不是用這樣來去做這樣的對比這是第一件事情那第二件事情我在處理第二個大幅的修正就是生權法那個時候修正的幅度超過這個法律的三分之一我們還用了會前會還從這個下午兩點然後把各部位找了因為相關的涉及的層面太多了"},{"start":384.156,"end":390.686,"text":"有交通的 有經濟的 有公共空間的有內政部的等等等我們是從兩點開到晚上十點"},{"start":392.12,"end":414.079,"text":"是主條的大家取得有共識不分草不分野因為大家要幫助身心障礙者的朋友那身心障礙者也有所謂的中低收入戶身心障礙者常常生活津貼等他的依據剛剛我講的第二條件還是以這個戶籍裡面的人每一個人平均算起來他沒有超過最低生活匯"},{"start":415.039,"end":431.673,"text":"的1.5倍就是有低收入低的資格2.5倍就是中低收入戶的這個申請資格所以我要表達說你用這個來對比老農津貼那基本上是不對的啦是不對的那第三件事情是這樣"},{"start":432.774,"end":453.178,"text":"我真的是不清楚 今天如果國民黨籍的所有的委員真的希望老榮津貼 在本會期成為部長所講的 我們要力拚這個會期把津貼的金額去提高提高多少 姑且先不談就是要提高那你怎麼會總預算 到現在還不審查"},{"start":457.818,"end":476.703,"text":"那你一定想說這個新的計畫還是延續性的新增機會只要送來立法院經過審查後通過不再實現你當然也可以講這些話我沒有異議不過我要特別提醒如果是可以這樣"},{"start":477.843,"end":495.87,"text":"國家在審查預算然後在面對相關法律過程裡面然後有牽涉到法律通過之後有牽涉到任何的預算的增加與否都必須要用這種方式來做處理這個國家是不是亂掉了然後農民也不希望有看到這樣的局面"},{"start":497.283,"end":520.497,"text":"然後也讓農民覺得你不就真的補去林花園 你就要跟他同歸如果不跟他們補 你不就繼續剩下的就對了所以我想我用一點點比較長的時間來提醒這件事情我今天敢排審下去 我坦白講啦不好意思 坦白講 我今天敢排下去 也當然是跟"},{"start":521.798,"end":531.626,"text":"農業部跟陳部長跟相關的官員有討論過也跟很多的委員有討論過即便願版來不及提出來我們還是一樣可以審啦"},{"start":533.12,"end":557.256,"text":"我們還是一樣可以審啦 怎麼不能審重點 重點就是要提高多少金額當然要行政單位去衡量財政狀況嘛然後你們也可以認可的 這樣的一個經費是你們可以去支應的嘛 然後可以可長可久的嘛而不是現在這次會期通過之後不到半年不到一年說經費缺少了 還是說沒有經費嘛"},{"start":558.197,"end":584.252,"text":"那所以我只是要把今天為什麼要把老農津貼趕快排審因為我們希望與時俱進我們也希望這個物價指數然後相關的這些波動當然對老農的這個老農津貼來講有一點有一點銜接不上對不上啦對不上這個不給基礎的標準所以我們才會趕快的在這個會期來排審然後不只這樣我們還是要顧青龍所以這個"},{"start":586.583,"end":603.555,"text":"這個禮拜一的時候在經濟委員會也針對農民除菁的相關的法律修正案那大家也有共識然後也出了委員會所以對青龍的照顧經濟委會已經在處理這由陳立功會委員陳立功會召委來排審那對老農津貼的部分就在"},{"start":604.816,"end":611.821,"text":"組織在位環 那當然我就趕快來排審我們對青龍要照顧 我們對老龍也一樣照顧對青龍照顧 青龍也會變成老龍所以這一塊要顧 這一塊要顧 兩個都要顧起來才讓從農的所有的這些我們的專業的農民有得到更好的這樣的一個保障也看得到更美好的這樣的未來然後才不會讓我們的從農的人口"},{"start":630.356,"end":658.233,"text":"持續從108年一直到現在已經幾乎每年是跌破是減少了快1萬人到現在這個資料就很清楚嘛從以前的108是將近56萬現在去年年底的統計是已經跌破40萬了那當然農業部剛剛有提出很多這個相關的一些鼓勵的還有要這個讓從農的人數要增加漁火的這個計畫但是那個KPI我不曉得"},{"start":659.824,"end":683.944,"text":"我是訓練完的你們把這個人數算進去但是實際上做到一半了哪是做不到半年了就已經在尼龍的那個有沒有扣起來我相信沒有扣掉啦所以再一來一往這裡就半件六萬五你到現在一十年這裡處理差不多三萬筒喔應該是不到三萬啦現在累積嘛兩萬四耶你再怎麼銜接都銜接不起來"},{"start":686.815,"end":712.651,"text":"補不足啦 也補不快啦然後台灣的人口的快速結構的應變不只是農業嘛 很多的產業面向的人口結構都很快速的在轉變在這個過程裡面 坦白講很多的政策我們必須要用很快速的做這樣的一個積極的因應啦還有很多我們必須要下門要就像為什麼以前叫農委會為什麼我們要把農委會提升變成農業部"},{"start":714.847,"end":744.111,"text":"為什麼為什麼農業就必須要有個部會來整個掌舵為什麼我們要預算以前一千多億一千出億慢慢的然後佔了老農青年老農青年就已經佔了一半以上為什麼我們要逐年去把這個農業部的預算一直往上提升農業已經委屈太久了農業已經委屈太久了所以今天由部長掌政的情況之下就必須適時的來幫農民幫我們的農業來跟行政院來做這樣的一個"},{"start":745.56,"end":769.916,"text":"這樣堅定的然後積極的訴求很多的事情我們可能要用最快的速度來做這樣的處理所以我們才會快速的把這個老農津貼排審到我們的委員會來所以希望今天可以透過充分的討論然後盡快的讓這個會計可以通過甚至以未來的預算都沒有問題可以追溯到明年1月以後就開始來實施這是最好不過的嘛"},{"start":770.336,"end":787.749,"text":"我相信大家如果願意朝這個目標來打拚啦來朝這個目標來做努力我想朝野的委員這個反對到現在不審預算的委員應該是要被說服的啦要被提醒的也希望他們可以加入我們要夠農民的"},{"start":788.93,"end":809.325,"text":"兼顧青農老農的行列趕快去溝通是不是這個總預算案趕快來做這個相關的審查才是真正的在為老農今天要提高要放寬這個排油條款相關的這個免扣出口都可以得到更寬鬆的認定那才是真正在幫農民不然今天在這邊講的"},{"start":810.626,"end":833.358,"text":"沒有照這樣的一個步調在做其實基本上都是假的啦那是在騙農民啦農民不是看不到啦我相信今天這樣的一個委員會很多的委員都已經有表達相關的意見那我只是在這邊做這樣的一個補充啦謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝劉建國稍微匆匆忙忙的發言大家我們下一位請圖謙基委員"}]}},{"id":"166678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d600985976518697c4b8f4e93bf07b6087f3e5e1c1e9a86b368252cafd17ebecc6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:26:25 - 12:44:03","影片長度":"00:17:38","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T12:26:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T12:44:03+08:00","duration":1058,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.47221875,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.247218750000002,"end":20.719718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.90534375,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.06971875,"end":158.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.97221875,"end":181.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.96034375000002,"end":183.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.69409375,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.75284375,"end":242.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.40159375000002,"end":193.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.50159375,"end":201.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.01409375000003,"end":243.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.94221875000002,"end":252.73409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.48096875000002,"end":256.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.30284375,"end":269.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.38971875000004,"end":271.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.03909375,"end":279.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.34159375,"end":399.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.86721875,"end":429.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.93409375000005,"end":497.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.77596875,"end":533.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.1965937500001,"end":602.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.56971875,"end":623.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.23721875,"end":634.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.9909687500001,"end":635.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.3115937499999,"end":658.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.72596875,"end":656.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.46846875,"end":659.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.77596875,"end":718.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.24284375,"end":696.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.8215937500001,"end":748.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.53846875,"end":796.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":796.9865937500001,"end":835.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":835.9172187500001,"end":836.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.9678437500002,"end":838.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":838.83659375,"end":841.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":838.8872187500001,"end":849.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":849.78846875,"end":913.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":909.59346875,"end":909.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":913.7109687500001,"end":920.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":913.9640937500001,"end":914.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":921.08534375,"end":922.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":922.75596875,"end":928.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":928.93221875,"end":931.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":931.8515937500001,"end":932.5772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":933.06659375,"end":940.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":940.4240937500001,"end":946.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":941.8584687500002,"end":942.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":942.4153437500001,"end":943.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":946.39784375,"end":946.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":946.6340937500001,"end":951.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":946.66784375,"end":947.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":949.587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謝謝是不是請我們陳部長上台委員好"},{"start":20.936,"end":36.165,"text":"部長事實上113年度的審計部總決算審核報告裡面也有談到這件事就是說事實上老農今天的制度本來是在尚未建立完整農民退休制度以前的過渡性措施"},{"start":37.145,"end":62.623,"text":"不過大家都知道立法的債刑條例的這個立法的初衷到現在這麼多年來社會普遍的認知和期許都不再是這個樣子了那在這種狀況裡面我們都知道老農今天以逐漸的有補充性的支持轉變為大家期許他是而且事實現實上也是多數農民退休後的主要經濟依據"},{"start":64.824,"end":80.79,"text":"使得這個制度的角色跟功能產生了結構性的變化可是事實上整個制度的設計都跟不上社會的期許和這個社會的認知的需要那在這種狀況裡面會發生幾件事當然這個審計部的這個報告裡面講到說113年度相關的經費已經佔了這個就老農津貼的給付已經佔了農業部將近四成的"},{"start":93.715,"end":110.489,"text":"這個支出了所以在這種狀況裡面未來50年的給付責任還要高達8111億顯示對政府中長期的財政已經形成了不可忽視的壓力但是呢我們現實來講他既然已經成為"},{"start":111.329,"end":131.347,"text":"这个多数农民实质的老年的经济依靠的话在这种状况里面每个月八千一百一十元他的给付水准显然是很低于最低的生活费的标准那整个制度设计它不是保险制它是一个福利津贴所以没有办法符合"},{"start":132.187,"end":158.553,"text":"這個老年農民生活還有降低貧困風險的效果的期待更難以回應高齡化社會下農民實際的生活需求那我們知道說你們作為這個還有這個未來本來想要過度的這個退休儲金制度要作為第二層嘛那要去逐步的承接老農津貼的功能但是我們都知道你們參與率太低了"},{"start":160.017,"end":179.552,"text":"具有資格的六成具資格的農民根本沒有納入這個體系所以導致你的制度沒有辦法銜接最終仍然還是要仰賴這個老農津貼的單一制度才承擔的退休保障的責任但是我們也知道現在青農 青農誰要領這個津貼青農都去參加職業工會吧"},{"start":184.741,"end":200.69,"text":"青龍現在也不能領因為要65歲才能領我知道但他們現在要早一點去參加職業公會因為年資跟給付的問題投保金額的問題青龍不會把自己未來65歲以後的老年經濟安全寄放於8000多元或是未來12000或15000因為"},{"start":203.311,"end":231.147,"text":"在勞保裡面再怎麼算大家想方設法就是要去保勞保所以我們現在要問的就是說其實就勞保今天跟農民退休這個儲金的制度來講說其實很明確的它的功能定位社會的期許社會的希望和認知跟你現在給付的結構和政策上落差太大了所以大家講的都很有道理可是大家都沒有要釐清它"},{"start":231.607,"end":256.474,"text":"他現在整個制度的設計到底是什麼屬性我覺得今天整個早上諮詢都是沒有去談說這個津貼他到底是什麼屬性不是嗎所以我跟委員報告就是在整個農民老農津貼的部分我們的定位是在一個福利的一個津貼的一個給付的一個作為但是不要忘了他社會的期待他已經不再是這樣子的"},{"start":259.322,"end":279.07,"text":"因為公務預算就是這麼有限然後能給的就這麼少可是社會對他依賴的程度老農對他依賴的程度對他的期待所以才會有大家不斷的要加碼然後一方面砍中央的預算到地方去啊但一方面又要你幾戶更多啊"},{"start":280.39,"end":301.497,"text":"所以其實我是講說 制度其實應該要好好的討論但是我知道制度無法變革 制度一變革就牽扯到選票選票就牽扯到每個政黨的政黨利益還有個別候選人的利益 所以我就不談了但我現在要跟你討論的是 我要希望你看的是農民職業病"},{"start":303.258,"end":326.106,"text":"農民職業病這個問題可能會更大我們希望很務實的來討論因為2023年國衛院曾經有一個研究指出從勞保和健保資料庫中去篩選出667種可能跟農民職業相關的傷害和疾病再將參加農民健康保險農民跟一般民眾去進行分析"},{"start":327.006,"end":349.737,"text":"藉此去找出農民比較顯著的經常罹患的疾病的類型那研究的結果顯示一共有13種疾病在農民族群中具有比較高的發生率那相關成果也給你們參考了那其實你們在植栽農民的植栽保險制度裡面你們的第9條也列了相關的一些很明顯就直接認定是"},{"start":351.458,"end":365.31,"text":"農業植栽的疾病在裡面的比如說已經很確定的農業行為跟致病的機制跟罹病的結果之關聯已經有高度的相關而且可能是因果的包括黴菌型角膜潰瘍 農藥中毒這個高端螺旋體病這個都很清楚了"},{"start":373.197,"end":398.669,"text":"但是還有需要進一步釐清但高度疑似跟農業相關的疾病但是呢難以直接判定直接相關的因果但是可以從農業環境和工作型態中來推論其風險的高低的比如說人畜共通傳染病斑診三行熱還有角膜結膜炎大概是有這一方面的問題"},{"start":399.91,"end":428.897,"text":"但是還有一種像是肌肉骨骼跟關節疾病肌肉骨骼跟關節疾病它高盛行率在你們投保的這些農民裡面高盛行率但是鑑定困難但是研究也有顯示農民較一般人更容易罹患膝關節炎 髖關節炎病骨前滑囊炎但是"},{"start":430.987,"end":453.768,"text":"骨骼跟結締組織的疾病常跟自然老化交織職業成因鑑定是相對困難所以對此研究資料已經交給中華民國環境職業醫學會後續將希望由專科醫師進行分析逐步的去建立農民職業病災害的判斷指引"},{"start":454.93,"end":479.711,"text":"那另外一項就是這個農藥的暴露風險跟癌症風險這個自然不在話下你們第九條裡面有一些也是農藥致癌的那當然最明顯是皮膚癌但是農民在工作中長期暴露於多項致癌因子包括高溫暗紫外線農機具的柴油跟廢氣土壤中的結晶型的二氧化矽還有農藥那大家都知道"},{"start":480.532,"end":496.258,"text":"紫外線跟柴油廢棄還有結晶型的二氧化矽都被IARC列為一級致癌物一級致癌物但是我們比較近10年農民跟一般民眾的罹癌的資料後已經發現了"},{"start":497.83,"end":504.396,"text":"不分性別 農民罹患非黑色素皮膚癌的機率明顯高男性農民常出現口腔癌 食道癌 肝癌這個可能跟生活習慣有相關可是生活習慣有可能是因為他的經濟行為導致的需求或是減壓來的"},{"start":521.152,"end":545.052,"text":"那農民罹患淋巴性白血病和非合結菌是淋巴流的機率也比較高但是治病的基準還需要去研究但是我們是希望你們從作物類型出發的田野調查釐清真正的疾病的來源去進一步的確認疾病跟農業行為的關係在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":549.616,"end":563.068,"text":"國衛院 我們衛福部國衛院已經展開了下鄉調查在提供健康檢查跟衛教服務的同時我們國衛院要去蒐集第一手的疾病跟暴露的資料"},{"start":564.189,"end":589.022,"text":"初期他們也鎖定栽培面積比較大的稻米和果樹的產區而且屏東的萬丹、枋寮地區針對芒果、蓮霧、紅豆的作物去深入的探討生產方式跟農民離病的關聯性研究也已經初步的確認了農民在多項疾病上具有顯著的職業風險"},{"start":591.403,"end":614.426,"text":"但是呢還需要結合大多數更多的數據的大數據分析還有實地的田野調查才能夠釐清作物然後用藥曝露疾病之間的因果關係才能夠完善你農民職業病認定的還有這個預防政策的科學基礎啦所以我要問你部長"},{"start":616.45,"end":621.885,"text":"112年我們國衛院做了這一份報告以後你們後續有什麼作為"},{"start":624.761,"end":646.154,"text":"我跟委員報告我們在做職業災害處理因為農業人的操作跟疾病如果有直接關係的話我們就直接正面表列對啊你第九條有啊另外有一個非常重要的就是沒有列在正面表列的我們就是用那個專業醫師的檢定如果認為他是跟這個職業是有關的我們直接就可以處理了"},{"start":647.174,"end":659.097,"text":"然後您剛才講的國衛院的這個相關資料我們收集了以後如果能夠確認的我們就擺入我們的正面像您剛才講的有一些關節囊的部分我們就擺入了那我告訴你一個數據根據統計近三年農民依據你們已經正面表列了叫做第九條嘛請領職業案件前三名第一名是中暑熱季暖暗熱說來節嘛"},{"start":672.28,"end":691.178,"text":"14件第二名樣蟲病10件第三名溝端螺旋病體7件第四名農藥中毒7件近三年加起來37件好 結果還需要職業這個災病的專科醫師去認定的就是適用第九支醫條的"},{"start":692.239,"end":718.121,"text":"腰椎 椎間盤突出等腰椎患者12件板肌指 身肌腱斷裂碗隧道症候群的12件肩部旋轉肌肌腱破裂旋轉肌袖症症候群5件膝關節 骨關節炎還有其他關節炎的5件眼睛疾病2件腦心血管疾病1件肺引球菌病1件3年一共38件我現在要說的是"},{"start":719.042,"end":747.349,"text":"需要再進一步去還要認定英國的38件你們正面表列的只有37件我們的意思是說這樣子好了我先講我先講了在農業現場的健康檢查的時候我們都知道其實老農跟青農不一樣老農其實對於保健知識職業病的預防他顯然他的專業還有這個專注知識 智能其實相對是比青農不"},{"start":748.949,"end":758.371,"text":"不如的在這種狀況裡面可是我們都知道說農民職災保險開辦以來到110年為止傷病給付案件達到4832件為歷年最高在這種狀況裡面各種職業病的案件怎麼分布不僅關係到制度的檢討還攸關到未來的預防我們都知道降低職災始終是預防更勝於給付和補償"},{"start":775.954,"end":796.116,"text":"但是你必須要透過了解農業環境工作型態作物類型或地區差異去進行分析更需要大量的數據去支持才能更精準更有效的預防和宣導但是你剛剛講的這三年裡面農民職業災害保險當中職業傷病跟職業病的核定率"},{"start":797.079,"end":804.946,"text":"可能不是很高然後對於這個核定的結果跟你們有沒有去檢視現行的審查標準跟實務運作有沒有存在著審查的這個嚴格影響農民實際的保障情形第一個第二個就是我剛才講的九之一條就是不是在正面表列的還需要去這個認定的"},{"start":820.441,"end":834.481,"text":"都已經大過於第九條了已經有沒有可能是沒有辦法實質的完整的去反映農民實際的健康風險的也就是說你正面表列的項目已經不足以不夠了"},{"start":835.973,"end":857.83,"text":"那我們知道健康檢查能夠及早發現疾病但對高齡的老農來講尤其很重要但大多數的老農也沒有健檢定期健檢的習慣那我們應該要比照老保你知道老保的僱主在剛開始一進入職場前都必須去做基礎的體格檢查"},{"start":858.63,"end":875.865,"text":"那我們需不需要對老農的健康把關建立一個農民健康資料庫使農民在長時間勞動後如果罹患了慢性疾病仍然有發病前的健康資料作為佐證來有利於職業病的鑑定他沒有健檢的習慣當它發生的時候難以判斷因果"},{"start":878.948,"end":883.851,"text":"然後在這種狀況裡面你難以證明因果的時候你其實也沒有大數據通通都沒有有沒有可能啊我們會妨礙因為缺少這個機制會妨礙後續的職業病的認定案診斷有沒有可能做對農民有基礎的健康的檢查納入農民職災保險的配套措施或是獎勵措施建立一個全國農民的健康基礎資料庫有沒有可能應該要這麼做"},{"start":908.264,"end":909.891,"text":"如果你要做職業傷病的預防的確是需要這樣子啊"},{"start":914.152,"end":939.175,"text":"我想非常謝謝委員的一個建議跟提醒那很簡單的說明第一個部分就是正面表列的部分大概大概51然後個別去個案去處理的這個部分大概48%那我們現在的處理方式就是把沒有列入正面表列的但是已經在這個個別的處理發現說他有正相關的我們就會滾動到正面表列的部分在第一個部分我們會去加強"},{"start":939.815,"end":965.551,"text":"第二個部分就是 正相關就要滾動進去第九條那很不錯喔但是你沒有基礎檢查了那個比較了基礎你怎麼會有一個第二個部分就是我也曾經跟同仁討論就是說要不要開辦一個我們農民的健康健康檢查的一個制度啦那後來我深入了解以後那個知識體大容我很多細部在牽扯到後面的經費的支出嘛"},{"start":965.851,"end":974.564,"text":"沒有 沒有 我們健保署已經把幾歲以上的基礎檢查都有cover掉了我們要排掉我是說整合進來你們應該編列一筆給青龍他從農以前進入職場前的基礎體這個健康檢查"},{"start":983.175,"end":1009.625,"text":"從容的然後可能在10年以後再一個那但是比照健保署40歲50歲以後你的檢查項目不一樣那整合健保署的補助健保署已經有了基礎檢查那我們在加強職業傷病的預防上再加含哪些項目再放進去那需要多少錢要估進去有了這一些基礎數據你才能夠確認說我是因為從容而發生的職業傷病"},{"start":1011.452,"end":1027.091,"text":"我想非常謝謝委員的建議那我們也曾經設也應該後續會去處理就是說只要你加入退休儲物金在年輕的部分我就有一個健康檢查的一個系統然後不同的年紀他的檢查項目可能會不一樣那這個部分我想我們再會設計因為這現在要經費的編列"},{"start":1029.414,"end":1056.425,"text":"你去想一下因為我們希望避免老農誤以為說我生理的病痛就是年紀大了嘛所以並不是沒有想過是職業病大家就覺得理所當然我年紀大了生理耗損是應該的可是如果我們真的要做農民的職業傷病的給付這個要保險那麼我們就給他做好好好的做完整的做配套都要進來我的意思是這樣子好謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166679","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166679","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d605177c661420519878f4e93bf07b6087f3e5e1c1e9a86b368252cafd17ebecc6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"12:44:10 - 12:55:13","影片長度":"00:11:03","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T12:44:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T12:55:13+08:00","duration":663,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.414093750000001,"end":8.603468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.77221875,"end":9.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.801593750000002,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.35409375,"end":11.910968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.480343750000003,"end":14.340968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.24346875,"end":18.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.62284375,"end":20.922218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.69409375,"end":23.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.672843750000002,"end":25.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.31409375,"end":24.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.33909375,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.76909375,"end":30.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.64221875,"end":37.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.20221875,"end":47.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.29346875,"end":48.799718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.626593750000005,"end":55.549718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.14034375000001,"end":59.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.88659375,"end":59.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.96159375,"end":71.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.46284375,"end":83.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.87471875,"end":82.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.47784375,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.54534375,"end":83.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.59596875000001,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.71409375,"end":89.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.23721875000001,"end":87.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.27846875,"end":90.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.44721875,"end":90.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.90284375,"end":92.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.39221875000001,"end":94.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.55659375,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.77159375000001,"end":95.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.69096875000001,"end":97.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.72471875000001,"end":99.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.90596875,"end":98.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.28534375000001,"end":102.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.79534375,"end":104.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.04409375,"end":111.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.03034375,"end":114.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.20721875000001,"end":127.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.47721875,"end":114.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.60159375,"end":132.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.92159375,"end":133.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.22534375,"end":135.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.10284375,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.08971875,"end":142.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.92034375,"end":142.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.27034375,"end":150.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.26909375,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.31096875,"end":153.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.45846875,"end":153.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.54284375,"end":156.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.20471875,"end":157.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.82471875000002,"end":158.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00",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那我請部長來 請部長各位勞保局局長白局長部長辛苦啦你小到年輕 讚"},{"start":22.779,"end":41.912,"text":"你說什麼 我說真的 我問你三個問題來 第一個問題就是有農民的觀念說他現在產殼病有三問題 四問題 五問題要做親農 但是做完之後是不是有災害 災害就親農去申請這樣他這個地主這個老農"},{"start":49.907,"end":59.173,"text":"農保都沒了 農保的65歲以上應該不會這樣子嘛有啊 他們就沒有了清朝就把他幹掉啦"},{"start":66.748,"end":95.587,"text":"這如果這樣你們這樣搶你青草我看這農博聯會就給你結束了我現在沒有在處理這個區塊你也知道這個區塊是過去這些農民有沒有他退休醫療然後他把這個低租給農民這是我們鼓勵的部分嘛他就在鼓勵這個小地主大電農嘛農民只要土地出租的話他的農民退休途徑是可以維持的嘛這個就被你們清掉囉農保的事我們沒有去清啦"},{"start":97.389,"end":109.248,"text":"65歲以上沒有 所謂審計部要求我們清的我們才會去處理啦另外土地做建光墊建光墊那裡就不是農地了嘛"},{"start":112.096,"end":127.21,"text":"他的農民身份也補去了不是 種光電的部分你如果說農地變更從農地變為非農地的時候那當然他沒有農地就是會處理但是你如果農許的話有沒有 都沒問題啊再來就是他的土地現在放在工業區裡面變工業區的地 他也沒有因為他的地目已經改了嘛"},{"start":137.168,"end":154.055,"text":"所以這你們在清查的時候要很細緻啦我這樣看你們農保的老農老漁領津貼的現在本來從七八十萬現在已經掉到剩下五十來萬了不是 那個是因為年紀大了 亡生 凋零再來就是這個青農 他們"},{"start":159.074,"end":168.679,"text":"不太敢說寄望於65歲以後捏這個老農津貼捏這個就我們死了所以大家都會做另外一套路所以大家都有勞保的身份嘛所以你們這裡的負擔會越來越少你們這裡的人會越來越少我想前陣子就比40幾萬、30幾萬高位反省沒辦法就有"},{"start":180.868,"end":197.757,"text":"不會啦 我跟委員報告特別是在農民退休儲金很多委員的建議就是說我們一些勞保的固定雇主的這部分我們也開放他可以領退休儲金那這樣子的方式的話能夠鼓勵這些他來繼續從事農業"},{"start":199.938,"end":220.456,"text":"你說的農保的儲金這是另外一個issue嗎不是農保儲金是他現在跟老保他是用一定雇主的這些老保的這些家保人他如果有從事農業的行為的時候我們可以讓他申請我們的農退儲金這樣的話他退休照樣有保障"},{"start":221.69,"end":225.633,"text":"會請你們的人來來我辦公室大家一起收拾這個是委員提出來的建議啦你這個齁 你這個都亂說一條我告訴你你沒亂說這是委員建議我們也認同的喔"},{"start":233.659,"end":237.28,"text":"九龍尾 九龍尾 一定雇主的老榮 老榮 老榮 老榮 老榮 老榮 老榮 老榮 老榮 老榮"},{"start":254.441,"end":263.307,"text":"現在農民 像去年山珠河颱風 再來丹納斯颱風 再來楊柳颱風 接著接著接著就像我們部長說的 極端氣候所以這些農民 都頭頭雪扁烏龜都在吃頭農農農農 今天的津貼是在幫他們補償這就是想去嘛"},{"start":278.917,"end":288.323,"text":"農業的收入這邊就沒有了你現在這是上去嘛 讓人家可以支撐你忘記說每天可以看餐桌 看餐盒我們家現在還在做事我們家現在還有水餃 還有 還有 還有香蕉有很多 但是我們如果"},{"start":297.589,"end":305.553,"text":"有老農津貼要九十多個月過去我們到現在說沒辦法 都在做事喔我們家也要做事 但是都沒家人捏 也沒捏所以我跟我說農業部不錯喔你這樣一直衝 一直衝到最後都一樣在做事但是我到現在老農津貼的路還在做"},{"start":318.719,"end":340.777,"text":"所以你在講的那個財政負擔我看這是沒那麼嚴重反省越來越少了我了解但是我們現在這一陣子這幾年來農業的人口結構剛好在轉型老農的退的速度大概一年到1萬5左右1萬4 1萬5左右然後新進的話還不到1萬"},{"start":344.64,"end":364.95,"text":"進的比較少啦 退的比較多啦但是他最後會達到一個平衡點所以我們怎麼樣去鼓勵年輕人趕快進來去做一個比較有效的平衡啦所以不會說進來 你以後的錢在那邊收什麼錢你是不是要給他一支一支給他怕死啊我們現在設計的農民退休儲金他如果補30年跟勞保一樣補30年他的領的會比勞保的還多"},{"start":373.065,"end":388.199,"text":"我這邊有資料啦就是後續就是領三萬如果三十年三萬九千三百六十年我上次在大院會總質詢有跟你報告的就是你現在的榮損都用成本的二十Percent來當榮損當補助嘛這你也相信你說要調整"},{"start":389.58,"end":410.339,"text":"那是要調整嗎我們有調嘛 有調啦有調對 明年就公佈調兩百塊調五百塊這樣喔我們不是用錢花的我們會精算它的成本然後另外重複受一年重複受影響的多年級作物我們有加碼"},{"start":411.451,"end":426.996,"text":"這剛才你有說 你說他高雷去保養保生的保險 保產險有27個樣品嘛 24個商品嘛28個品項 四張保單保的 保了個位數的翁來的啦什麼都不可以保嘛 木櫃也不可以保是誘因不夠 補助不夠 還是保一保到不夠不完這保養公司 每一個比一個還要一億錢啦產險公司這要一億錢啦"},{"start":440.325,"end":447.829,"text":"所以我前幾天跟卓院長說你那些農金屬這麼多要用這麼好這裡要有錢你自己補就好了這些農民是你的子民不然你會有300萬人在從事農藝部這些人他們在做的工作企業像我們屏東企業你也給保安給他遇到災害的時候不要學本有過真的是會期待吃土 跳牢"},{"start":469.199,"end":472.201,"text":"總預算先審我們就很多事情都能夠處理好 這我們來努力做真的是總預算沒審我們真的什麼都不能動啊"},{"start":492.964,"end":516.462,"text":"再來前面的題目要講我們生活上你說台北 台中 屏東都15000元起跳 最少所以我拿的版本 15000元你就會覺得 喔 給1000元 給幾億 多幾億我想 到時候會領得人會越來越少沒有像你講的那麼多 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部長你們農糧署的來研究一下好不好"},{"start":649.516,"end":662.647,"text":"等一下找蘇委員報導一下跟蘇委員講一下這個我們通過之後如果預算你們還不審的話新增的是不能動的提醒一下"}]}},{"id":"166677","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166677","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d609af3afc5b6bb6a328f4e93bf07b6087f3e5e1c1e9a86b368252cafd17ebecc6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:15:33 - 12:26:22","影片長度":"00:10:49","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T12:15:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T12:26:22+08:00","duration":649,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.32971875,"end":7.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.384093750000002,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.84346875,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.860343750000002,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.180968750000002,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.952843750000003,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.00346875,"end":14.273468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.273468750000003,"end":14.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.492843750000002,"end":15.707843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.977843750000002,"end":17.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.84971875,"end":40.784093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.391593750000006,"end":44.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.59784375,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.08284375,"end":81.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.85784375,"end":84.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.67159375,"end":87.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.69659375,"end":91.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.78034375,"end":92.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.24846875,"end":98.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.89721875000001,"end":106.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.00159375000001,"end":111.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.30034375000001,"end":118.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.23596875000001,"end":122.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.76284375,"end":124.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.57659375000001,"end":127.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.80846875,"end":130.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.16659375,"end":133.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.11471875,"end":157.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.48846875,"end":151.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.15909375,"end":153.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.68596875,"end":160.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.27159375000002,"end":162.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.41471875000002,"end":164.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.04721875,"end":168.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.59534375,"end":171.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.63284375,"end":172.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.84784375,"end":175.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.98221875000002,"end":180.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.11659375000002,"end":183.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.32284375,"end":185.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.79096875000002,"end":189.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.34721875000002,"end":191.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.38909375,"end":195.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.62909375,"end":196.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.63721875000002,"end":200.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.57346875000002,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.13346875000002,"end":211.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.60534375,"end":233.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.15909375,"end":236.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.34846875000002,"end":238.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.80784375000002,"end":246.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.94596875000002,"end":250.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.8903437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主席請一下保險局局長保險局白局長"},{"start":26.025,"end":40.3,"text":"局長我們今天雖然是修老紅福利津貼暫行條例不過就是提高老紅津貼這個本席是贊成的我有"},{"start":42.389,"end":67.084,"text":"因為這個問題所以所以講到我們的勞保問題還是非常嚴重那你現在是勞保局局長之前是保險司的司長所以大概相關的問題你也都了解那我這樣子講假如說假如到最後是定案把老農津貼增加到每個月一萬五千元"},{"start":69.526,"end":80.95,"text":"我先講就是增加到多少本席都沒有意見可是我們用這個一萬五千元來對比一下勞工勞退的部分"},{"start":85.748,"end":111.536,"text":"就是說113年底的資料呢勞保裡面的年金給付每個月領一萬五的人其實是超過五十萬那老王今天現在領的人大概也也差不多四五十萬啦就是多少五十三啊對 那就差不多啦就是說"},{"start":113.116,"end":133.176,"text":"而且这50个人呢平均的投保年资大概超过22年那一个是政府纯粹给的津贴一个是社会保险的给付这个对于很多劳工会不会很不公平局长你讲一下你的看法"},{"start":139.167,"end":163.9,"text":"是 報告委員喔勞工保險像委員剛才提它是一個社會保險所以在我們勞保的老年年金的金額它主要計算的取決標準是在它的投保年資還有平均投保薪資那當然年資越長投保薪資越長可以領的金額也會越高我知道 我現在是說你要不要就你的立場表態一下津貼的問題就是說"},{"start":166.84,"end":190.471,"text":"我有在講喔就是說勞保年金它本身是受給負責它是自己繳保費國家成立的一個社會保險我繳保費繳了22年可是呢我月領1500元以下的超過50萬"},{"start":192.418,"end":211.408,"text":"那津貼呢 是政府的給予的福利給付那它的人數也大概超過五十萬那都是一萬五 你有沒有什麼看法你覺得公不公平 我直接這樣子問好了"},{"start":212.939,"end":238.809,"text":"那個報告委員 勞保局我們這邊受託辦理老農津貼的一個發法那從老農津貼 剛才部長也有提到從照顧農民的角度以及兼具財政上面的一個可行性上面會就老農津貼的金額上面去做一些大家整體的考量那從局這邊 因為我們在受託業務上面我們會尊重農業部在相關金額上面不是 你當然要尊重 我現在不是在問這個問題我是說你會不會覺得勞工領得太少"},{"start":240.816,"end":259.527,"text":"對我們勞動體系來講其實能夠給勞工更好的照顧一定是我們勞動部會往這個方向去努力的那我看這個方向你們已經努力了十年啦你從保險師到現在你覺得有什麼可以努力的還是撥補就是你們唯一的努力"},{"start":261.986,"end":271.301,"text":"報告委員也非常謝謝委員會在上個禮拜我們審查通過了勞保條例六十六條跟六十九條那也謝謝委員因為委員非常重視我們勞保財務"},{"start":272.267,"end":299.419,"text":"在政府付最終支付責任委員也有提案還有將我們政府要撥補的這個都入法明訂那另外也在條文上個禮拜也有特別提到要有定期的財務檢討機制外我們在委員會有特別通過一個附帶決議就是委員所關心的除了撥補之外我們參考各國在年金改革的一個經驗他是多管旗下的一個開源節流的一個措施所以相關的措施部分的話局長你直接跟我講"},{"start":301.38,"end":308.903,"text":"在國際上多館旗下的其中哪一館你覺得台灣是可以先行來做的"},{"start":309.965,"end":338.664,"text":"跟委員報告那一天的附帶決議其實裡面也有提到我們長期勞動部這邊希望能夠再促進勞工能夠再續留職場或者是說可能那天也有提到在附帶決議裡面希望我們能夠炒我們在相關的基金投資收益率或者是說在我們勞保局審核面有關納保面或給付面等等我想他的面相非常的廣闊續留職場是不是續留職場是含蓄的講白話是不是就是延長退休年限"},{"start":339.865,"end":363.173,"text":"我們在之前有通過中高齡的就業專法中高齡 促進中高齡就業專法那我們會往那個角度其實這幾年勞動部在這一方面的努力我們也一直在往這邊做相關的一個我現在問的是法定退休年齡延後這可能就是因為委員這邊關心說國外的各種改革的方式那國外的方式其實都有很多種它不管是從納保層面的"},{"start":364.097,"end":389.016,"text":"或者是從給付層面的確都有那之前在國內我們也討論了非常的有一段時間大家在做交集那因為從不同的不管是從勞工層面或者從資方層面或者從政府財政上面或者是說不同的年齡層大家其實都還有不同的意見所以這部分大家也希望能夠在改革的過程中能夠確保勞工的生活保障可以不要受到影響之下那能夠大家再做一些及時廣益"},{"start":389.761,"end":417.255,"text":"就是一定會受到影響因為老容津貼已經提高到這樣子了那勞保一直改革沒有進度當然我們上個禮拜委員會把政府撥補的責任入法然後把最終責任給負責任入法那這個都不是改革的本身就是說老容津貼比較快因為他是國家直接"},{"start":419.502,"end":439.126,"text":"直接給付所以比較快就是透過修法就可以增加老農的收入保障他的生活老保不一樣老保你們假如說一直還是停留在這裡那遲早因為其實"},{"start":444.482,"end":463.775,"text":"坦白說這幾年的通貨膨脹真的非常嚴重領一萬五千元的勞工這麼少這麼多這個到底怎麼生活你們回去要看一看我今天並不想為難你我只是說藉由提這個"},{"start":467.766,"end":477.95,"text":"這個法案然後連結過來讓你們知道勞工有多慘這樣子而已 瞭解非常謝謝韋爺的關心 我再請一下農業部部長 部長我簡單跟你討論一個問題部長好 部長我剛剛有聽到你你一直在說有關老王今天排布條款的"},{"start":491.175,"end":518.884,"text":"的修改問題那我們現在的條件有不動產的價值然後有個人所得的問題嗎有三個部分一個是所得的部分一個是土地跟房屋的一個價值的部分然後另外還有個唯一自住房的一個扣除額的部分三個部分那我就中額所得總額不得超過50萬這個你們有沒有可能會改"},{"start":520.109,"end":541.177,"text":"我剛才提到了就是我們所會來會提到送到立法院的版本裡面包括所得的部分包括排付財產的部分所得的部分你們會怎麼改因為所得的部分基本上過去都沒有根據CPI調整我們這一次會把它導入一次根據過去沒有累積的CPI一次到位"},{"start":542.437,"end":555.183,"text":"我簡單建議一下就是綜合所得的部分我們是不是要區分區分被動收入跟主動收入就是說因為"},{"start":557.659,"end":580.018,"text":"台灣邁入中高齡社會嘛那勞動部也一直在鼓勵中高齡再投入就業市場所以假如說可以把他的勞力所得扣除在外可能一方面也公平嘛另外一方面也可以提高他的就業意願"},{"start":581.803,"end":593.731,"text":"避免他為了要領津貼然後原本可以再投入職場的機會反而就沒有了對於個人跟國家都是一種損失"},{"start":594.838,"end":612.588,"text":"我跟委員報告我第一個要先說明這邊的所得的部分是指非農業的所得當然農業的所得都不會去處理都不會排掉那非農業的所得的部分就是他有從事農業以外的兼職的工作對但是你的兼職的工作如果太多的話這等於說"},{"start":613.857,"end":643.222,"text":"那個本業跟兼業變成顛倒了啦但是我們在考慮這個部分的時候我們是用所有的所得嘛去做處理如果再分一些主動的被動的那那個變成更複雜變成個人中二所得的這個是個人中二所得嗎我是提供提供你們做參考啦我覺得就是他假如願意願意再再投入職場我們應該要鼓勵啦好謝謝主席"},{"start":643.865,"end":649.002,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"166674","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166674","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d605d3ba0511ac461a28f4e93bf07b6087f1e7720c7178afcf35eb32057a8da52ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"14:21:10 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Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T14:21:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T14:32:17+08:00","duration":667,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.329093750000002,"end":10.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.29909375,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.67034375,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.982218750000001,"end":15.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.89284375,"end":111.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.65534375,"end":28.785968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.134718750000005,"end":39.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.75284375000001,"end":79.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.25034375,"end":81.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.18784375000001,"end":103.60971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.91221875000001,"end":168.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.73471875000001,"end":114.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.53346875,"end":132.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.90471875,"end":132.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.01409375,"end":135.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.28346875,"end":139.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.10409375,"end":153.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.85721875000002,"end":167.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.95409375,"end":178.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.28721875000002,"end":169.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.76346875000002,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.98284375,"end":173.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.36596875,"end":186.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.22971875000002,"end":212.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.41409375,"end":194.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.77221875,"end":198.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.23096875000002,"end":205.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.51784375000003,"end":205.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.82471875000002,"end":227.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.88346875000002,"end":215.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.16909375,"end":223.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.31659375,"end":225.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.11784375000002,"end":227.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.40034375000002,"end":246.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.68659375000001,"end":233.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.73284375000003,"end":234.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.39034375000003,"end":238.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.38159375,"end":240.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.82784375000003,"end":282.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.45159375000003,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.92409375000003,"end":252.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.43471875,"end":278.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.70846875,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.56909375000004,"end":282.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.87284375,"end":294.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.98909375,"end":350.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.24221875,"end":295.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.29284375000003,"end":295.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.28409375,"end":297.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.83971875000003,"end":305.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.34096875,"end":311.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.72471875,"end":313.73721875},{"speak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部長 實在是很感謝我們政府保證登記對我們的農民是很照顧 也是盡量來盡出我們對農民的權益嘛當然請你討論 要繼續拍片啦我們要繼續溝通"},{"start":41.351,"end":53.88,"text":"一開始在聽保庭做報告之前 趙薇來擺今天這個行程 因為她親愛的用意趙薇講得非常的清楚 針對這個"},{"start":56.241,"end":79.2,"text":"法律的部門的修正他講得很好笑你等了這麼久他以後他會再跟你請教很多事情所以這部分我就簡單給這個部長請教三個問題第一個問題就是老人津貼合理調整的額度跟模式這是第一點第二點就是說之前也有關心可分解的絨模跟這個蔬果貼紙"},{"start":81.361,"end":100.781,"text":"目前在推動的進行第三部分就是說我們的氣候變遷對農業的行政影響也很明顯我們目前有什麼樣的發表的方向今天有這三點要跟部長來請教一下因為我們今天的主題就是老農心的合理調整的額度跟模式"},{"start":101.742,"end":119.477,"text":"差不多所有委員都跟你請教過了不過也是要注意因為我們到113年目前勞動津貼給付的人數51萬我也是農村子弟嘛包括說我們台南現在有67000故鄉52000中華63000 芬林48000我自己來的 我自己有45000的鄉親 屏東51000的"},{"start":128.224,"end":144.071,"text":"每一個月都領的是八千一百十塊我們知道這是一定要調整這個調整是怎樣最好這就是我們今天大家互相來討論不僅是說我們對農民要有交代意外當然我們也要了解政府到底有多少可以使用當然每一個月都不一樣的生活我們就是照程序來做就是要怎樣做"},{"start":155.539,"end":180.077,"text":"所以針對我們這個問題這個合理的額度調整模式還有這個排富機制還有裁員規劃可以麻煩保長簡單再說明一下嗎我簡單一個說兩部分 一個部分是額度 一個部分是排富那額度的部分分作兩個一個是它的基礎 太低第二個就是說它的調整的那個機制"},{"start":183.519,"end":206.774,"text":"那額度的部分我們希望說能夠拉高現在是從上一次開始起算的那個7000塊然後加每4年的CPI那我們希望說這次能夠做適度的額度的提高然後調整的時間點現在是4年一次我們希望2年下來檢討2年的CPI超過3%或5%的時候就啟動那個調整的機制那剩下的2年看"},{"start":212.978,"end":226.646,"text":"CPI成長多少我們繼續調這是額度的部分排富的部分因為過去都沒在處理那個所得跟財產的十幾年都沒處理所以這邊我們一次把它到位的處理就是說"},{"start":228.487,"end":246.554,"text":"那個所得的部分會針對過去累積的CPI差不多16%都做成條財產的部分過去累積的大概百分之六十幾%我們也會一併的來調整那希望說這樣的一個調整能夠讓讓更多的農民能夠領到這些農民退休儲金"},{"start":246.894,"end":271.09,"text":"是 所以聽起來是很合理希望大家能夠合理地來討論 更快地讓這個好的發展可以通過這是第一部分 感謝部長這方面的說明再來就是這個可分解的農謀跟這個蔬果標籤推動的狀況因為我們知道這個可分解的有機農謀對我們種來的農業有很重要的所在"},{"start":271.87,"end":279.918,"text":"之前有請教過農業部的書面報告裡面有說到一些有機農業進行的過程裡面我家裡也要進行水稻所以推廣這個有機水稻的部分要怎麼處理比較好我們也知道要進水稻一定要守草"},{"start":295.691,"end":315.218,"text":"過去的鄉親實在是很辛苦 像這邊在外的過程裡面 所操兩遍三遍可以臨時分委也請教 所操過程工作的過程裡面很多都是腰不好 膝蓋不好等等 職業病都會照出來"},{"start":315.718,"end":336.269,"text":"我們現在知道有一種叫做紫緻的薏草錫那就是說現在有機嘛盡量就不要用農藥去除草嘛所以有很好的作用在日本開發出來我們台灣目前也有兩間的公司有在做包括中華紫江跟政榮"},{"start":337.049,"end":352.874,"text":"所以到底我們現在台灣有多少屬於有機水稻他使用這樣的這個材質的百分比不知道 差不多有多少你現在要怎麼推廣這部分是不是 麻煩保長來說明一下我跟委員報告就是說現在我們做有機的水稻的時候最困難的就是說"},{"start":358.527,"end":380.385,"text":"不然補下去以後有些雜草嘛所以現在我們試驗改良商所跟日本的合作就有一些就是溢潮石有的補溫就是連經濟水中的經濟跟這個紫質的溢潮石Coding在一起補下去以後變成直播的方式它改變了我們現在的水中的模式"},{"start":381.226,"end":397.436,"text":"所以現在目前我們還是用示範的方式在協助推廣因為大面具去做的時候還要精算它的成本因為這紙質現在目前不普遍不普遍的時候那價值比較貴價值貴的話農民就比較不想用所以這個部分我們會持續請我們街上團隊來合作特別是跟一些以前有在生產的有沒有這個公司來合作來做這是我們希望來做到的"},{"start":410.925,"end":421.052,"text":"所以都有一些示範方案示範方案現在在處理好 因為感覺起來這是對我們的有機農業未來長期來講是比較好對我們所有的環境也很好所以如果可以這樣做應該是對農民有很大的幫助對我們的農業好 這個麻煩部長繼續來處理"},{"start":431.82,"end":445.265,"text":"第二點就是之前也有說過這個蔬果貼紙我們知道蔬果基本上有兩部分一部分是我們自己種的不然外國再種一部分是外國生產的我們對外國的東西當然那些貼紙我們比較難要求外國要求是最好不過起碼我們本土的這個貼紙部分目前不知道有比較分解材質的推進狀況還是沒有一部分要怎麼把它落實到產業"},{"start":459.851,"end":482.407,"text":"我向委員報告現在農業部的農產品有在做貼紙就是我們的產銷履歷及優基那當然一些有其他的標章可能是其他的部會我們現在先對我們的產銷履歷及優基的標章我也覺得說你如果用一些可分解的這些材質的話對環境是比較好的"},{"start":483.107,"end":507.395,"text":"我們現在也有跟一些鄉鄉在討論看有沒有辦法做中間也是介紹 新聞跟介紹的部分所以這個部分我們阿邦要塞就是可能會對新對有機的來塞有機的因為本身對環境比較好你用的一些資材也是有機的我也希望說它的標籤也是有比較可分解的材質這個部分我們來努力的"},{"start":508.015,"end":519.859,"text":"也讓我們的社會才知道大家為了我們的環境給一點介紹大家是不是可以大家一起來分擔這些麻煩農業部多宣傳好 最後一個問題就是這個氣候變遷這個氣候變遷大家都跑不去農業影響也不是那麼大"},{"start":530.402,"end":559.905,"text":"我們最近去嘉義大學去了解過知道嘉義大學跟台南的農改廠研發一些耐旱的水稻叫做嘉大台南二號那些珍珠米吃那個米的感覺其實口味很好還可以做酒黃文宇教授還是很用心不只可以抗旱他們這些東西出來可以解水還可以減少碳排放"},{"start":560.685,"end":574.332,"text":"這部分從來是很需要台灣有更多的這些方面的推廣這部分目前不知道農業部針對於這個相對的因應氣候變遷帶來的衝擊有什麼比較新的目標可以讓我們國人知道我們面對氣候變遷本身第一點的部分就是說我們的拼盡有辦法去"},{"start":583.436,"end":602.121,"text":"比較耐熱的 比較節水的部分這個部分我們的研究團隊就是我們的街中廠一直有跟好好在合作包括你剛剛說的九二大行在合作希望說我們有比較多不同地區的這些品種可以適合地區來種這是第一個第二點就是說"},{"start":603.641,"end":623.869,"text":"我們的天氣裡面本身的監控的系統我們要比較好的就是說我們的預測的監控的系統如果比較好的話可以讓農民早一點去做預防是 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2.881,"end":243.406,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":1650.255,"end":1660.483,"text":"不好意思 因為我們今天各部會在場人數比較多所以我們也特別開放了802會議室然後可以讓這個在現場如果沒有位置坐的官員我們可以到802會議室我們那邊應該可以看到我們九樓開會的一個狀況那是不是先請我們在場"},{"start":1674.335,"end":1689.357,"text":"還沒有位置坐的我們的官員先到802會議室先到802會議室那不然這個雖然九樓會議室已經蠻大了那但是呢這個大家在討論的聲音呢"},{"start":1689.958,"end":1692.74,"text":"等一下可能會蓋過不論是官員或是委員討論的聲音所以我在這邊再次邀請到目前為止還沒有位置坐的我們的官員"},{"start":1706.187,"end":1735.51,"text":"那是不是能够到802会议室到802会议室我们那边也有准备会议室供各位来做这个不论是做休息或是说了解今天的会议的一个进度我们请主任秘书报告出席委员人数报告委员会出席委员与主法定人数现在开始开会请议事人员宣读上次会议议事录"},{"start":1736.993,"end":1763.221,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期財政委員會第十三次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年十二月十七日星期三九十至十一時五十七分地點群旋樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林德福委員等十四人列席委員黃國昌委員等五人列席官員財政部部長莊翠雲及其所屬單位代表經濟部農業部法務部等單位代表"},{"start":1763.801,"end":1785.969,"text":"主席林昭吉委員思明宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定討論事項審查海關進口稅責5案本院委員徐富奎等17人委員黃建豪等22人委員徐富奎等16人委員陳金輝等16人委員林思明等16人分別擬據海關進口稅責部分稅責修正草案等5案經委員"},{"start":1787.009,"end":1798.293,"text":"徐富奎 黃建豪 林思明說明提案要旨財政部長 莊翠雲 回應委員提案後紀委員 林德福等14人提出質詢軍軍財政部莊部長 農業部農糧署陳副署長經濟部產發署翁組長及相關人員以說明及答覆"},{"start":1803.935,"end":1826.131,"text":"決議一 說明及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三 委員黃珊珊 陳玉珍所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆四 海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案等五案另則其繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":1830.762,"end":1840.019,"text":"好 因為在場委員未足法定人數我們議事錄等一下再來做確認接下來請議事人員宣讀今日議程"},{"start":1841.294,"end":1865.917,"text":"邀請行政院主計總署陳主計長淑芝財政部莊部長翠雲金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金融國家發展委員會副主任委員內政部次長外交部次長國防部副部長教育部次長法務部次長經濟部次長交通部次長勞動部次長農業部次長衛生福利部次長運動部次長環境部次長文化部次長數位發展部次長"},{"start":1867.178,"end":1894.064,"text":"僑務委員會副委員長國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員海洋委員會副主任委員國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會副主任委員人事行政總處副人事長國立故宮博物院副院長援助民主委員會副主任委員客家委員會副主任委員中央選舉委員會副主任委員核能安全委員會副主任委員公平交易委員會副主任委員國家通訊傳播委員會副主任委員大陸委員會"},{"start":1895.584,"end":1911.656,"text":"副主任委員 公共工程委員會副主任委員就115年度中央政府總預算案至今尚未審查近3000億元之新興新增計畫將無法推動對國家整體發展的影響進行專題報告並被質詢宣讀完畢好 謝謝我先來介紹我們在場的與會的官員行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝好 謝謝財政部部長莊翠雲"},{"start":1925.393,"end":1938.577,"text":"金融監督管理委員會副主任委員 陳彥良國家發展委員會副主任委員 高仙貴內政部政務次長 董建宏外交部政務次長 陳明齊國防部副部長 徐思簡教育部常務次長 朱俊彰法務部政務次長 徐錫祥"},{"start":1957.005,"end":1961.807,"text":"經濟部政務次長何敬昌交通部政務次長吳勝源謝謝勞動部常務次長陳明仁農業部政務次長黃昭清衛生福利部政務次長林靜怡運動部政務次長鄭世忠環境部政務次長葉俊宏文化部常務次長徐怡君"},{"start":1989.498,"end":2014.97,"text":"數位發展部政務司長侯怡秀僑務委員會副委員長李延慧國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員蘇政剛海洋委員會副主任委員黃向文國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會副主任委員陳敬廣人事行政總署副人事長沈德然"},{"start":2017.64,"end":2042.845,"text":"國立故宮博物院政務副院長黃永泰原住民族委員會常務副主任委員杜章梅莊客家委員會政務副主任委員邱新威中央學局委員會主任秘書謝美玲核能安全委員會主任秘書王崇德"},{"start":2044.977,"end":2074.435,"text":"公平交易委員會製造業競爭處處長胡光宇國家通訊傳播委員會綜合規劃處處長溫俊瑜大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑公共工程委員會副主任委員陳維祥歡迎 謝謝我也介紹我們現在在場的與會的委員林德福委員"},{"start":2079.295,"end":2089.268,"text":"還有吳秉瑞委員好那請問各位委員對於上次的議事錄有無異議好 議事錄確定"},{"start":2091.965,"end":2109.856,"text":"我們今天是就115年度中央政府總預算案至今尚未審查於3000億元之新興新增計畫將無法推動對國家整體發展之影響進行專題報告我們現在先請行政院主席總署陳主席長進行專題報告"},{"start":2118.599,"end":2140.134,"text":"主席長 就簡短報告就可以了我知道內容很多是 主席 各位委員 女士先生今天很榮幸應邀列席就115年度中央政府總預算案資金會審查然後近3000億元的新興新增等計畫無法推動對國家整體發展的影響"},{"start":2141.095,"end":2158.295,"text":"那依照預算法規定預算案應該在會計年度開始前一個月由立法院來議決然後會計年度開始15天由總統公佈那所以這我們總預算案如果不能一線完成各機關預算案的執行依預算法執行"},{"start":2159.295,"end":2181.34,"text":"預算法第54條還有中央政府總預算案未能一線完成的執行補充規定辦理一新興計劃新增計劃必須要等預算完成審議程序才可以動之但經立法院同意者不在此限第二個法定義務支出何時動之但經常性經費和延續性經費等於上年度執行範圍內動之"},{"start":2183.12,"end":2212.108,"text":"那第三第一第二預備金和災害準備金必須預算完成審定之後才能動之所以一百一十五年度會完成通過審議通過不得動之計有兩千九百九十二億元那新興計劃的部分是有一千零一十七億元那屬於中央置辦的部分是三百八十億元地方受益部分主要是六百三十七億元那影響如下"},{"start":2212.688,"end":2235.103,"text":"第一個直轄市和縣市政府均衡補助321億元中央將無法協助整體貨配金額低於114年度的地方政府影響地方財政調度能力那第二個縣市河川和排水整治一個計畫將嚴重衝擊地方災害調適量冷和增加淹水風險那三是AI新十大建設102億元"},{"start":2237.304,"end":2261.744,"text":"那这个影响企业和公共服务导入AI的一个速度是TPAS行政院通勤月票执行计划75亿元将影响全国每个月约98万余人的一个通勤组的一个权益是卫生福利部健康台湾70亿元将把全面监测疫情发展然后强化我国疫苗研发的一个能量"},{"start":2262.324,"end":2283.801,"text":"六 新材料循環產業園區申請設置60億元將影響大林埔1.1萬戶的一個千村那7生育幾戶差好補助41億元將影響12萬胎新生兒家庭無法勤領補助八 補助校舍和排水將影響足足苗的一個國立大專院校"},{"start":2284.301,"end":2297.458,"text":"它整個一個老舊建物和污水下水道工程進行的一個改善九 部件公共化拖曳設施14億元將無法及時補助彰化縣等13個地方政府部件優化49個公共化拖曳設施"},{"start":2301.784,"end":2323.909,"text":"使台灣品牌賽事競選計畫8億元各種賽事活動恐無法如期推動經常性延續計畫115年所編列競會比114年高的部分總共有1805億元也是不能動之會影響整個一個施政計畫的推動那在國防部的部分"},{"start":2324.549,"end":2340.844,"text":"計有725億元將影響各型基建站站甲砲車等的一個維修和彈藥油料的一個補充那交通部超過248億元那會影響鐵路地下化相關的一個"},{"start":2341.685,"end":2369.09,"text":"工程的進行三 經濟部超過148億元將影響先進半導體和新興通訊相關技術研發的一個進程那外交部超過108億元將援護我國與友邦合作的一個項目的一個執行那衛福部超過103億元將影響整個國家醫療整備的一個任期還有第一第二預備金和再號準備金"},{"start":2370.631,"end":2398.013,"text":"170億元將無法動之那面對災害就無法執行所以整體115年度總計有2992億元必須要等預算通過使得執行所以總預算是關國家的一個發展人民的一個民生利益攸關希望大院能夠盡速審議使有關國家長遠發展和人民福祉得以如期執行以上報告敬請各位女士先生指教謝謝"},{"start":2400.322,"end":2420.775,"text":"好 謝謝陳主席長由於受到影響的部會相當的多但是因為時間有限所以接下來我只請財政部還有國發會來做專題的報告其餘各部會的資料請我們所有各位委員用書面資料來做參考接下來我們請財政部中央部長進行專題報告"},{"start":2427.728,"end":2456.221,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好今天貴委員會邀請本部等相關機關進行專題報告並被質詢僅就一百一十五年度中央政府總預算案的稅務編列情形還有未審查的影響簡要說明如下首先就是一百一十五年度中央政府總預算案稅務的編列情形我們在這個總預算案裡面稅務編列的是兩兆八千六百二十三億元比一百一十四年度的預算案減少了三千零二十五億元負成長"},{"start":2458.842,"end":2461.444,"text":"9.6%其中說客收入編列2兆4807億元比114年度的預算數減少了3038億元那麼"},{"start":2467.725,"end":2485.243,"text":"是負成長10.9%主要是因為才化法的修正那麼中央地方稅客收入的劃分比例使中央的稅客收入減少那麼其中營業稅就減少了3534億元另外非稅客收入的編列是3816億元比114年度的預算數增加了13億成長0.3%"},{"start":2491.269,"end":2496.211,"text":"沒有審查115年度中央政府總預算案的影響根據預算法第54條以及中央政府總預算案沒有能夠一線完成時的執行補充規定總預算案的審議如果不能依同法第51條期限完成的話各機關預算的執行收入部分像賦稅 規費等是屬於強制性的收入那麼當然依照法律的規定徵收那其餘就按照實際發生數來執行"},{"start":2518.362,"end":2537.728,"text":"另外因應收支調度需要的債務舉借依同法第54條第4款的規定 核實辦理至於115年度新興資本支出以及新增計劃總預算案沒有能夠依法完成審議的程序那是不能動之 會影響政府的施政以上的報告 敬請各位委員會議指教 謝謝好 謝謝周部長接下來邀請國發會高副主任委員進行專題報告"},{"start":2553.315,"end":2573.79,"text":"主席 各位委員 新晉 大家好今天承蒙國務委員會交期本會列席我們就115年中央總預算為人審查對國家發展的影響進行報告我想第一就是總預算如果未審查的話會延誕政府的預算的執行我想剛剛主席長已經說過了我們整體的影響會達到2992億元其中新增資本支出跟新增計畫會到1017億元"},{"start":2582.877,"end":2589.019,"text":"我想根據行政院主席總書最新的估計我們今年的經濟成長率可以達到7.37是創15年來的新高展望明年我們考量台灣仍然面對AI成長動人美國關稅後續的進展以及主要國家貨幣政策的調整還有中國大陸產能外溢等風險為了推動國家的穩步發展急需要堅強的政府預算支出來支持"},{"start":2611.585,"end":2638.982,"text":"第二个是总预算如果未能审查将冲击国家整体的施政我想行政院卓院长在今年9月向大院提出的施政报告里面具体揭示了我们115年的中央总预算的案是以AI新十大建设跟国立新十大建设的双金字塔计划为主轴希望能强化产业的领先优势扩大内需动人确保经济成长的全民共享"},{"start":2639.802,"end":2655.847,"text":"首先就AI新十大建設推遲的影響我想AI是驅動台我國下一階段經濟成長的關鍵引擎AI新十大建設以智慧運用關鍵技術跟數位基盤三大主軸希望推動台灣成為智慧科技島"},{"start":2656.607,"end":2662.031,"text":"115年中央總預算已經編列相關經費311億元其中受影響的達到102億元如果為人通過的話我們在智慧應用普及的方面有關智慧雨林的創新生態系等協助百工百業跟中小企業導入AI的措施將面臨推動的困難第二個是關鍵技術政府聚焦在矽光子 量子 科技及智慧機器人等前瞻技術"},{"start":2686.727,"end":2710.763,"text":"如果預算延遲的話將會影響關鍵技術研發的時程跟產業鏈的成型第三個是數位基盤那其中智慧政府資料治理政府AI適用場域及智慧防災等計畫都高度仰賴中央政府總預算的支持如果推動延遲也會直接影響到公共服務的品質跟治理的效能"},{"start":2711.603,"end":2737.519,"text":"第二個是有關於國立新十大動人推遲的影響我想國立新十大的計畫涵蓋產業升級、世代照顧跟國立基盤三大主軸總預算如果不能順利通過的話在產業升級方面我們相關計畫無法執行可能會削弱無人載具國防產業的自主研發能量影響政府的數位、韌性及偏鄉的這些"},{"start":2738.379,"end":2756.354,"text":"通訊同時呢我們有擴大內需的兩大主軸有關於這個官官產業也會受到影響然後也會衝擊到地方經濟的發展但是到是在照顧方面我們生育給給付差額如果沒有辦法落實會影響12萬個"},{"start":2758.516,"end":2764.159,"text":"新生兒家庭的權益然後公共托育的這些設施延誕也會影響托育的這個樣人那健康計畫受阻的話也會招落國家整體藥物整備還有這個疫苗自主研發的能力在國力基盤方面我想很重要的就是因應氣候變遷核專管的計畫剛才主席長已經有報告過了"},{"start":2782.068,"end":2808.551,"text":"好 那我想最後呢我想115年度呢中央政府總預算所建構的雙金字塔計劃是我國邁向智慧科技島跟落實均衡台灣的核心戰略我想請恳請大院支持115年度中央政府總預算緊速完成審議讓政府得以依法施政確保國家的穩健發展回應全民的期待以上報告 進行指教"},{"start":2809.77,"end":2832.371,"text":"好 谢谢高副主任委员的报告现在开始询答先做一下宣告一 每位出席委员发言时间八分钟必要时的延长两分钟每位列席委员发言时间五分钟第二 今日上午十点截止发言登记三 现已登记顺序请登记第一位的林德福委员进行质询"},{"start":2842.272,"end":2845.254,"text":"謝謝主席是請陳主計長還有莊部長請陳主計長 莊部長"},{"start":2853.359,"end":2876.256,"text":"委員好主席長你好主席長因為卓院長上個禮拜接受專訪的時候表示根據統計明年度新興計畫中有超過兩千億元受影響沒有辦法來推動那卓院長指責在野黨就是要讓執政團隊沒有政績阻礙整個國家的前進那主席長"},{"start":2877.637,"end":2886.742,"text":"足跡總數預估明年GDP成長率只有3.54%那請問這項統計預估有沒有加入卓院長所說的新興計畫2000億受影響的因素嗎 有沒有"},{"start":2893.68,"end":2899.024,"text":"還沒有加入每100億會影響0.05%對 要是沒有的話那請問你認為2000億的新興計畫一估影響多少的經濟成長率一估多少我跟委員報告每100億會影響0.05%的一個百分比那換句話說會影響到1%嗎是不是是"},{"start":2920.582,"end":2937.356,"text":"這個國會不能亂講話還是有可能變成負經濟成長反過來說如果有從經濟成長率來看卓院長對在野的指責是不是太過武斷因為你沒有把它納進去你現在說這個要加這2000億然後經濟成長率差了1%你說原來我們3.54意思就是說加進去變成4.54是不是"},{"start":2948.581,"end":2966.405,"text":"是不是百分之4.54這一個部分呢它大概就針對業務費和設備費它會影響每100億大概0.05個百分點這是我們預估的那你也不是也不是說在推動這個因為你它有兩項嘛經常門跟資本門嘛你這個並不是租資本門啊你怎麼可以這樣講呢"},{"start":2976.087,"end":2981.294,"text":"也有資本能資本能可能部分啦但是你還沒有納進去你怎麼可以說這個是在野黨對不對除外我們整個執政團隊讓執政團隊沒有政績這等於是亂講話嘛對不對那個如果沒有"},{"start":2990.706,"end":3015.154,"text":"你身為主席長難道你不應該跟院長建議嗎不能這樣講啊 對不對那個主席長 左院長指責立法院通過的裁判法絕對影響你就是少嘛你本來就是估計3.54嘛你加這個就變成4.54嘛剛剛你有講啊 對不對那你現在 主席長左院長指責立法院通過的裁判法再修正版"},{"start":3015.874,"end":3031.68,"text":"有其明顯違憲之處所以他不附屬這項立院三讀通過的法律案主席長行政院送立法院的預算案經過立法院三讀通過行政院是不是也有附屬權"},{"start":3035.305,"end":3056.966,"text":"行政院長是不是也有戶屬權如果115年度 三千億新興計畫立院也三讀全三那你認為行政院到底是要欣然接受接受總統公布的結果還是他可以如同最近財化法修正一樣實行不戶屬讓三讀通過的總預算案沒有辦法公布"},{"start":3057.739,"end":3075,"text":"因為這個部分通過的部分我們執行確定確實是有困難因為如果說我們要照編的話那絕對超過公債法一個部分2646億超過我們公債法的一個規定所以這個執行是有困難主席長"},{"start":3076.401,"end":3098.955,"text":"財化法修正版立院已經刪讀行政院長不附屬製造憲政爭議為了115年度預算案又拿新興計畫3000億可能造成國家整個前景的受阻企圖來抹黑在野黨的立委請問主席長到底是應該無條件尊重立法院多數"},{"start":3101.446,"end":3115.192,"text":"多數決後的預算審查結果還是沒有條件來支持行政院長獨斷否決立法院多數決下的一個附屬權請你做你的看法"},{"start":3115.762,"end":3142.128,"text":"坦白說我們是希望能夠盡量來執行但是執行確實是有困難所以才會沒有辦法我跟你講 主席長從你上任主席長到現在什麼都是困難包括去年多少讓你自己去調30%多少你也說有困難 歷任都沒有困難這裡很多財委會的委員包括很多官員都在場只有你有困難 其他都沒有困難我認為你真的不盡職"},{"start":3143.328,"end":3144.69,"text":"那是真的是有困難而且如果說要對於那個那個一些管制的項目來刪減的話那是真的有困難主席長 以本席的看法行政機關對立法機關多數決"},{"start":3160.142,"end":3185.619,"text":"這個開啟不戶屬權的先例未來立法機關只要出現嘲笑野大的局面行政院都可以依其好惡行使戶屬權那請問主席長戶屬權大於民意機關多數決的結果是不是會讓立法委員連預算審查到最後都可能只留於行政院的橡皮圖章"},{"start":3187,"end":3204.747,"text":"的地位 試問這是大家所期待的結果嗎大家所期待的結果嗎我們大家都不願意看到這樣的一個情況我們是代表人民來監督政府我們實際上執行是有困難你什麼都有困難啦 講實在話你是非常不盡責 那個部長來我請問你 莊部長"},{"start":3211.488,"end":3230.808,"text":"上個禮拜四 央行李監事公布最新經濟預測除了今年的經濟成長率上修到7.31%也同步預估明年成長率3.67%不漲那你身為央行理事請問你對明年經濟成長率比今年低有什麼看法"},{"start":3232.015,"end":3254.159,"text":"我想在有關經濟成長率的估測不管我們主計總署也好 央行也好都是參著了國內外整體的經濟情勢所做的一個估測的結果部長 明年財政部主導稅收預估你認為對比今年的預算數與時增數的落差到底是變小還是變大"},{"start":3256.021,"end":3279.17,"text":"跟委員報告明年的我們的稅客收入在報告裡面我們事實上是比今年的預算數來得少那主要是因為有稅收短徵不是稅收短徵是因為財化法的修正那在撥給地方的部分要增加到4000多億所以中央的稅客收入就比今年的預算數來得少主要是這個原因"},{"start":3280.427,"end":3307.764,"text":"那個羊毛都出在羊身上過去你撥給多少你們當然就本身不會再列預算給他們了那其實那個部長蘇建榮在任部長的時候曾說稅收超增是整體經濟擴張所帶來的自然現象並非違法超增而當時的經濟成長也是超於預期所以稅收和經濟成長能夠成正比"},{"start":3308.864,"end":3314.647,"text":"對照今年整個經濟成長超過7%的超乎預期主計總數預估達到7.37%但稅收卻短增外界在質疑整個國內財政轉換你認為"},{"start":3326.673,"end":3352.566,"text":"你卻說這是預算數和時增數的數字落差 部長稅收預算數少於時增數就好比原本預計要賺10萬結果到最後只賺9萬那我請問部長收入變少如果不是景氣變差所導致難道政府機關的預算會像乞丐許大院一樣最後拿到多少都認為是天意嗎"},{"start":3354.253,"end":3369.466,"text":"跟委員報告114年的說客收入的預算在編列比10增數就比去年的10增數就增加了947億而今年呢我們認為到12月底為止我們全年的專案的說客收入可以達到98%到99%"},{"start":3371.628,"end":3397.203,"text":"其实基本上是非常接近了预算数而税客收入的影响的因素相当的多经济成长只是一个而且部分的税务因为今年的经济成长它的税客收入的实现数会在明年比如说所得税是克明年是克今年的不管是个人所得也好或者是盈利事业的获利都会在明年呈现所以这个部分各个税务情况是有不同的跟委员说明是"},{"start":3397.363,"end":3416.198,"text":"部長 今年稅收短徵你強調不是財政轉壞或財政不好截至到11月底 今年稅入時增數為兩兆6350億元比去年同期時增數還高出539億元按照今年整個預估經濟成長率和2024年經濟成長率的4.59% 時增數啊"},{"start":3420.941,"end":3442.047,"text":"陳正比增加應該合乎邏輯那我請問部長如果時增數合乎邏輯為何預算數會不合乎邏輯呢這本席感覺很奇怪剛剛本席曾以蘇建榮前部長所說明的稅收超增是整體經濟擴張所帶來的自然現象那今年稅收短增"},{"start":3443.767,"end":3450.749,"text":"如果不是財政轉換或不加所帶來特定的稅收經濟萎縮難道經濟擴張還會帶來超自然現象嗎我們的預算數今年114年的稅客收入預算數比113年的時增數增加到947億就接近1000億了所以這個部分我們現在的時增數跟預算數之間的差距大概1%"},{"start":3470.695,"end":3472.656,"text":"一定是會小於2%所以我們可以達到98%到99%其實非常接近的預算數了所以沒有所謂的財政轉換這樣的一個情況跟委員說明 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝林委員接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":3501.294,"end":3523.493,"text":"主席麻煩請財政部莊部長請莊部長我也好我延續剛剛的話題因為我覺得問的人跟你回答的你回答的他好像沒有聽懂所以我再讓你再說得更清楚"},{"start":3524.639,"end":3538.153,"text":"因為所謂的徵收的比例是跟預算數來比民國114年就是這個年度的預算數跟去年相比已經提高很多了"},{"start":3539.468,"end":3550.299,"text":"你剛剛講是不是已經提高了很多了是跟去年的時增數而不是跟去年的預算數是跟去年時增數已經高出我知道了我是說那預算數提高多少已經高出947億預算數不是時增數113年的預算跟114年的預算數差距是多少"},{"start":3556.141,"end":3560.482,"text":"那如果說這樣的話 那接近將近有好幾千億因為我們去年比預算數 時增數比預算數就高出了3757億事實上我的預算數還比這個時增數更高我們一項一項來好不好 你把兩個東西混在一談難怪他聽不懂嘛我現在就是一項一項幫你撥清楚嘛"},{"start":3580.927,"end":3608.325,"text":"113年的稅入的預算關於稅收徵收的部分跟114年度的稅入預算稅收徵收部分就增加了3000多億對不對你剛剛講是不是又增加了3000多億預算數先講預算數那所以這個預算數多了3000多億也就是說如果大家都是收百分之百的時候你的實收數113年度跟114年度你就要多3000多億對不對"},{"start":3611.844,"end":3625.797,"text":"再來再進到時增數那當然113年的時增數時增很多所以他們才要求那個要發一人發一萬的兩千兩千三百多億啊對不對那就是因為我以前一直在這邊跟你講說你們的預算"},{"start":3628.941,"end":3648.122,"text":"這個稅入的部分編的太保守估計的太保守使得真正徵收到的數額高於這個預算數很多嘛那你們今年114年從善如流把預算數提高了3000多億所以今年的時增數就不會高於預算數那麼多到目前為止"},{"start":3649.063,"end":3664.188,"text":"還差一點點其實還有一個原因你還沒有講到就是因為台灣跟美國在關稅談判所以你們今年年終的時候有宣布今年的那個站腳稅款什麼東西都可以延後對不對那一部分差多少"},{"start":3664.488,"end":3681.198,"text":"那個部分就差不多要600多億了所以如果把這個600多億歷年來都沒有這種讓他們可以環繳可以分期繳的這個東西再加進來今年的實增數原則上本來還是要高於預算數但是大概只有高四五百億啦"},{"start":3681.963,"end":3702.173,"text":"如果照剛剛的算數這樣算下來因為你現在說會達到98或是99嘛你的估計那我們現在還離年底還有10幾天嘛還不到10天但是你實際的收入我這樣給你算一算假設你沒有讓因為台美的關稅談判使得它延緩跟站腳今年的實收數"},{"start":3703.459,"end":3713.192,"text":"很可能是比今年的預算數會多收四五百億因為你暫緩了五六百億所以最後你只能夠達到98% 99%我這樣說對不對是的 謝謝委員確實是如此如果這樣是對的話"},{"start":3720.001,"end":3746.575,"text":"就代表我們的經濟成長率在稅收上面也是會展現當然稅收是會有遞延效果就像你講的營所稅跟眾所稅分別遞延一年跟兩年嘛因為明年上市櫃公司的公司發股利給股東股東明年拿到股利他是後年繳個人綜合所得稅那公司竟然賺錢的營利事業所得稅是明年繳嘛所以分別遞延一年跟兩年這個七年"},{"start":3749.056,"end":3774.467,"text":"多的經濟成長率是不得了的成績但是會在明年後年顯現出來你的困難是在哪裡是因為他們把統籌分配稅款把所有的營業稅幾乎都撥到地方去就把你挖掉三四千億所以你今年的稅入的總預算那一部分扣掉本來是成長因為那部分扣掉所以等於是從三兆一千億退為兩兆八千億"},{"start":3775.527,"end":3788.812,"text":"今年度的這個預算要編來立法院的預算我這樣說對不對完全是的就115年度的預算但是你的回答因為他也沒有要認真聽你的回答因為他就是活在他自己已經編好的故事裡面好你請回座 請主計長謝謝請主計長"},{"start":3797.932,"end":3815.924,"text":"委員好剛剛的對話有聽到現在一個最大的問題我跟你說我真的這樣認為今年的預算不可能會省今天是12月24號到現在預算還沒有付尾昨天在程序委員會還是給你擋掉"},{"start":3818.383,"end":3831.069,"text":"我們的召委很認真排這個題目就是讓你講清楚為什麼因為他要讓國人知道說這個會對國家造成什麼樣的損害那你認為他不給你省預算最大的理由是什麼你有沒有聽過就是那個那個軍人的一個因為立法院用他的法律案搶奪了行政院的行政權"},{"start":3847.399,"end":3849.47,"text":"行政權的核心是人事跟經費"},{"start":3851.041,"end":3879.444,"text":"就是說他規定每個職業經理人他都要給你每個月加薪三萬塊本來其實總統跟行政院原來就已經有加了加了一些戰鬥價值等等已經加了大概我如果沒有記錯大概加了一萬多塊錢然後他這個之外他還要每個月還要再加三萬塊然後要指責說你行政院沒有編入預算裡面所以他不給你省這個預算破壞整個人事制度"},{"start":3880.545,"end":3900.785,"text":"對啦那其實我就認為這個違憲啦那當然他們過去為了怕被宣告違憲就把憲法法庭的這個用憲訴法把整個職權剝奪掉嘛把整個國家的制度全部都弄壞掉了嘛好那現在五個大法官他們出來做了這個憲法的判決說憲訴法違憲"},{"start":3903.208,"end":3924.873,"text":"所以如果依照目前中華民國的憲法體制現在是可以申請違憲的審查了就可以申請憲法的判決那條路有恢復出來了那問題是他們現在又說這五個大法官的判決違法但還是不要讓憲法法庭走啊所以我是跟你講這群人是不會讓你省預算的啦"},{"start":3926.72,"end":3944.192,"text":"12月24號不會審1月24號也不會審啦到下個會期如果沒有特別的事件發生也不會審但是我要問你一個我最憂慮的問題剛剛的報告裡面說第一預備金第二預備金跟災害準備金總共有170億都沒有辦法動資啊是"},{"start":3947.588,"end":3969.447,"text":"台灣過去有句話叫多難興邦因為台灣這個海島剛好在太平洋的前沿在整個太平洋的颶風就是說我們每一年颱風幾乎都有啦有的從南部來 有的從北部來但是很難有那個年度說整年都沒有颱風全台灣都沒有受到風災的那現在又強降雨水災的機會也很多"},{"start":3971.055,"end":3979.566,"text":"我要請教說那你的第一預備金第二預備金跟災害準備金都沒有辦法動之的狀況下發生天然災害怎麼辦"},{"start":3981.989,"end":4010.548,"text":"是 這個部分所以我們這個部分就是會遭遇到困難的一個部分我知道啦 我現在就是說我們也在面對這個困難嘛我很想讓台灣能夠正常運作台灣的國民遇到天然災害的時候我們中央政府可以跟他救助我們中央政府可以給予各種救災各種災難的整頓啊那他現在不給你省這個預算所以依照你的報告第一預備金 第二預備金加災害準備金總共170億"},{"start":4012.81,"end":4031.302,"text":"明年的災害準備是50億那一倍跟二倍是120億本來如果災害準備金不夠的時候行政院還可以專案簽准用預備金來用嘛所以當台灣遇到天然災害除了地方政府要救災之外中央政府救災主要就是要靠這一筆錢嘛"},{"start":4032.984,"end":4042.57,"text":"那他現在不給你過你讓國人知道說這個沒有過的話將來中華民國遇到天然災害中央政府沒有一毛錢可以花大聲的講給國民聽啊"},{"start":4045.836,"end":4070.207,"text":"是 這個部分災害準備金的確是一個困難那如果說地方他災情慘重的話那自己的災害準備金不夠資益那就必須要仰賴中央來做資助那到時候中央就是沒有經費可以調整到說天然災害發生的時候他們就會講另外一套說詞他不會講說他們不通過預算所以你沒有錢他講說中央麻木不仁對國人的災害視而不見"},{"start":4072.554,"end":4075.416,"text":"他們將來就會換成這種言詞囉所以你要了解我們今天主席為什麼我認為這是我揣測的為什麼這麼辛苦排這個議案請了這麼多的政府官員來就是要讓你們說出沒有這個通過之後國人會受到什麼樣的災害你都講話都很客氣講說我們就有困難國人聽不懂什麼叫我們就有困難"},{"start":4099.731,"end":4105.034,"text":"你要跟他講 這個沒有過明年任何的災害 中央政府一毛錢都沒辦法補助國內是不是要共同承擔這個苦難他是影響災害的一個救助啦對啦 我的意思是說 我這個人我偷懶啦 我比較激動啦我要把這個困難告訴全民聽我們的行政官員就不痛不癢我們就遇到困難了"},{"start":4125.046,"end":4126.809,"text":"如果這樣我們台北住宿今天派這個議員要給你選名"},{"start":4131.55,"end":4153.681,"text":"我意思是說 你如果真的很痛 要大聲哀啦你這麼說我們有困難 那個不痛不癢好像不太重要啊我的感覺是這樣子啦我是說我用情緒的角度來揣測會不會有這樣的誤解這樣如果造成這樣誤解就很遺憾希望你能夠很認真 大聲疾呼這不過是國家的災難謝謝喔 加油謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":4158.334,"end":4161.155,"text":"謝謝委員接下來我們請賴世保委員謝謝主席以及各位先進節省時間等一下要問的幾位長官一起財政部長 主席長"},{"start":4184.759,"end":4205.571,"text":"還有這個經濟部的何次長還有衛福部的林次長還有陸委會的梁副主委交通部的次長好不好一起上來 委員好好 那請那個剛剛委員所點到的官員我們依序上台陸委會和梁副主任委員"},{"start":4213.899,"end":4227.104,"text":"好 各位長官好我先問一下主計長今天派這個題目招委當然有權利派任何題目這個題目老實講就是很簡單啦剛才你也講了你們不依法編列"},{"start":4231.585,"end":4242.652,"text":"是立法權如物啊 掏空立法權啊我們三讀通過的法案給軍人加薪 買武器一堆國防預算九千多億然後加任性一千多億 加一兆"},{"start":4248.162,"end":4251.604,"text":"兩千五百億如果通過的話那整個兩兆多難道不應該給那個軍人志願役的加薪嗎就通過了這個加完薪跟世界比也沒有特別高啊你們不編列然後警校退休的要提升為八成看到最近張文事件代表警察很辛苦啊我們要特別的這個要照顧他們"},{"start":4275.413,"end":4289.999,"text":"更多人願意來當警察 因為退休保障就這麼簡單的事情這兩個你依法編列 可以審為什麼不能審 為什麼不要審總預算當然要審啦 你不依法編列怎麼可以講說你說違憲就違憲 請再公告咧你是大法官啦 你怎麼敢講我們通過了就違憲你又不是大法官怎麼講違憲 所以來 我題目很多 你不要講一堆喔我就問你 來來來 沒有 你不要走就問你 就問你"},{"start":4304.344,"end":4327.866,"text":"你要不要公開承諾審總預算的時候 審完馬上追加預算這兩筆追加預算我們就馬上審 就這樣可以承諾嗎 要承諾其他不要講就講這個我要跟委員報告 第一個就是說你這個你本身我們以前從114年我也有追加那個G的第一份要不要承諾啦"},{"start":4329.407,"end":4333.049,"text":"這不是我承諾的問題我們本身第一個要先籌措裁員依照我們那個財政紀律法要先籌措裁員那這個部分如果有籌措裁員有相關的裁員那這個部分才能夠來辦理追加就這麼簡單的事情你只要答應說我們省完預算馬上追加那很簡單啦我們三兆裡面我們300億砍了一耙300億就可以有啦怎麼沒有錢呢"},{"start":4358.186,"end":4362.21,"text":"錢在那裡啊 就這麼簡單的事情我們沒有提醒市縣啊 那我們按照市縣基礎來辦理你不要講違憲 因為你沒有權利講違憲你不是大法官 不要亂講一通更何況大法官現在啊 憲政的庫斯拉"},{"start":4376.224,"end":4394.498,"text":"庫斯拉 憲政怪獸 一個叫賴清德 一個叫卓榮泰現在加五個 游伯祥 鄧 五位大法官 高派那些大小大家都知道公民課 我們開會的時候要法定人數法定人數按照級別 按照舊的憲法 要六個 他五個"},{"start":4397.06,"end":4411.344,"text":"就可以了以後我們想辦法說彈耳賴清耳的時候趁民進黨立委不在的時候不在的統統不算我就統統通過了不可以啦主席長好你下去喔來我請教財政部長財政部長委員好我看到你們發布消息啊說啊網紅要課稅有沒有這回事啊"},{"start":4425.468,"end":4444.277,"text":"跟委員報告對有關稅的話有所得我們就會有課稅的這個議題怎麼課啊 課多少啊有關網紅課稅的部分在我們這次已經訂了相關的規範課幾% 你跟我講課幾%並不是所得稅是不是就是境內的網紅當然有我們的所得稅的中所稅"},{"start":4445.357,"end":4468.269,"text":"對 用中鎖稅來扣好 境外呢境外的話就是境外如果是境外的話是從國內的來源鎖的是我們國內的話那它就是用扣繳20%的稅20%這當作外籍人士扣什麼時候開始生效什麼時候開始生效立即就生效但是我們有立即生效所以有輔導期到明年的6月底"},{"start":4468.749,"end":4497.103,"text":"明年6月以後就課稅你們都掌握了嗎我們現在就開始課請問那你告訴我全部網紅有多少被你課到的全部網紅的數量我看是不是請複稅署說明一下有沒有數量來來趕快因為時間有限趕快多少報告委員掌握的多少我們現在正在輔導當中陸續在發輔導函多少人啊你告訴我目前手上還沒有確切的數字等我們輔導結束就是一段時間以後再跟委員報告所以要辦名你接受你輔導啊"},{"start":4498.483,"end":4509.028,"text":"我們有去爬書一些資料來做輔導你一定要爬 爬書大概多少人啊而且我手上沒有最後的數字因為他們還沒回報好 請你回去請經濟部的市長委員好年底的台美關稅能不能搞定"},{"start":4518.532,"end":4544.191,"text":"因為剩下沒幾天了那美國這邊應該有聖誕節的假期我想可能年底沒辦法搞定農曆節能不能搞定我想這個應該還會牽涉到保保保我就告訴你現在等於川普跟八成要見習近平見面之前都不會搞定啦這才是悲哀啦還有他們要求我們營業500億以上去美國投資有沒有這回事"},{"start":4545.533,"end":4563.066,"text":"目前 有沒有這回事告訴我因為這個我不清楚這個部分這個東西他們講的我們毫無招架能力真的還不是貴美而已貴美甜美完全的就是他講什麼你看拖這麼久我們剛開始談的時候我們還是前四大前五大開始跟美國談結果到現在為止都沒有"},{"start":4573.558,"end":4577.64,"text":"要買武器也買了 買了不來啊一兩百億美金的武器也不來我們要的F35也不給我們對不對 結果到現在為止你都沒有答案好 請你回來 我請教那個衛福部的委員長 次長啊你也當過立委當次長喔你是醫生啦"},{"start":4599.906,"end":4612.871,"text":"日內瓦宣言 醫生日內瓦宣言不得因為宗教 國籍 種族 還有政治有所差別結果現在賴清德總統在2023年選舉總統的時候說你們要給他洗啊 洗久一點啊以前10分鐘就洗20分鐘洗腦他支持賴清德啊"},{"start":4622.374,"end":4644.796,"text":"連病人都不放過啊要洗腦還說要告訴門診的醫生說判到像我們這樣災害黨的利誤說要審總預算怎麼會叫醫生來干預政治呢連病人都不放過怎麼會這樣子呢第一個事情醫師這邊當然不會因為病人的宗教種族等等地位而對他的治療有所猜疑但是我還是要拜託一下委員在預算非常的重要因為"},{"start":4645.356,"end":4660.711,"text":"我們在公務預算裡面我們對於護理師的決議都放在公務預算裡面這一次的新增的計畫裡面包含了藥品任性以及我們很多的智慧醫療的部分都在新興預算裡面拜託委員支持我們的預算"},{"start":4661.171,"end":4688.654,"text":"真的再一次強調委員所關心我們非常多藥品任性的部分國內的藥品能夠自主化都在這次的計畫都在新興計畫裡面拜託委員能夠支持我們的預算讓我們能夠來進行這個部分大家都非常關心我們整個醫療的健全都在公務預算我們的健檢也在這裡面啊我在跟委員報告委員時間很少我一定要跟你們報告預算裡面這麼多重要的部分拜託讓我們能夠執行"},{"start":4690.863,"end":4698.127,"text":"軍人加薪更重要買這麼多武器 要軍人妳請回 妳請回我當然支持預算但是請你們支持軍人加薪"},{"start":4705.912,"end":4717.099,"text":"請你們支持憲政 中華民國是民主國家依法行政這麼困難嗎為什麼我們通過的你不編可見不及嘛你說今天影響三千億 影響兩千億 影響四千億你們不及啊而且不要忘了這個政府沒有因為這樣停擺沒有像美國說關門"},{"start":4733.17,"end":4734.013,"text":"沒有像美國這樣關門繼續運作然後我請教陸委會的副主委"},{"start":4740.663,"end":4764.88,"text":"委員好有人說吳鳳山被請辭是因為謝昌廷因為謝昌廷現在沒有位子要給他台日關係協會所以把他擠掉把蘇嘉全擠掉 徐嘉全來做這個吳鳳山的位子這個事情你要不要澄清一下是不是如此關於人事的部分就是由總統府在作業之中作業完畢之後我們會再跟大家報告他確定被請辭不是嗎吳鳳山被請辭了"},{"start":4770.75,"end":4774.273,"text":"吳鳳山董事長是辭職了 沒有錯對啊 他被請辭 他自己講的被請辭啊人事的部分是由總統府在做作業所以你也不知道 你不敢講來 我們就看到來 交通部你看到今年的觀光利差1500億喔1500億喔 其實只要路客來的話通通結局的"},{"start":4793.271,"end":4815.99,"text":"那個 副主委要不要講一下你為什麼不開放入客 讓入客來多一點這個就達到達標 你們要達一千萬的目標現在都達不到啊各位報告我想我們這個考慮這個開放入客我想這部分還是要必須考慮到我們國內的整個情境啦那現在大陸 陸委會的關係啦副主委講一下啦 副主委要講一下啦副主委講一下啦"},{"start":4820.874,"end":4830.016,"text":"我們已經有去函對岸 請他們能夠回函給我們然後我們啟動觀光小兩會的對談最近不是你們也辦一個團在北京辦一個北京來報導的一個Enter會是你們辦的啊那個是我們的台旅會辦的所以我們對觀光的態度一向是很open只是對面遲遲沒有給我們正式的回覆"},{"start":4847.574,"end":4861.562,"text":"你們可以更open一點你從那個五黃山被換成蘇嘉軒就知道你們兩岸的關係就希望讓他繼續惡化嘛就是惡化才符合你們的政治利益嘛我們絕對沒有希望要惡化我們希望兩岸關係穩定沒有 如果這樣搞的話老實講啊這個陸委會都可以拆掉了啦這個陸委會不交流委員會啊實在是好 謝謝 謝謝賴委員接下來我們請賴會員委員"},{"start":4883.572,"end":4903.316,"text":"謝謝主席 有請主記長還有國化會 國科會主委經濟部次長 交通部次長委員好國科會副主委交通部經濟部國發會還有國科會各位早安"},{"start":4911.141,"end":4936.852,"text":"我也是賴委員那其實我們財政委員會向來我們的傳統跟文化大家其實基本上都是溫和的那今天有很多委員會的那個其他委員會的官員到這個地方來我希望就是讓我們所有的財政委員會的委員還有信賴的委員都可以真的是大家互相信賴可以真正的把這個"},{"start":4937.952,"end":4953.883,"text":"我們在預算審查裡頭的憲政僵局是不是試著試著可以有機會來打破那我們大家都知道說距離那個本會計年度的結束只剩下七八天了那令人遺憾就是說民眾黨跟國民黨兩黨"},{"start":4956.004,"end":4984.922,"text":"他就是把115年度的總預算現在還卡在程序委員會沒有辦法進到委員會來實質的一個審查那我相信在座的各位也非常的清楚立法院不可能在剩餘的幾天把所有的預算審查完畢可是這個不僅是程序的問題也是行政效能的問題那在這裡本席要代表我們基層群眾的一個焦慮是不是這個僵局有沒有辦法"},{"start":4985.862,"end":5014.581,"text":"那個打開那對老百姓的一個衝擊有多大主席我想在這裡請教你這個115年度3000億的新興計劃那他的會影響他的內容會影響到哪一個部會是最嚴重的會不會像美國一樣就是說預算沒過我們的公務人員有有沒有辦法繼續領薪水有沒有辦法繼續領薪水會不會像美國政府一樣關門停板"},{"start":5016.082,"end":5036.387,"text":"主委長依照規定他那個法定的一個支出是可以支出的啦但是他就是新興的計畫就受到限制那這裡面呢主要就是說對直轄市和縣市的一個補助這個會影響因為會衝擊地方的一個整個的"},{"start":5036.787,"end":5051.88,"text":"一個調度然後裡面重點還有一些是屬於相關縣市管河川的一個治理和整治那這個影響到將來災害來的時候這個部分我們必須在提前來作為所以這個部分"},{"start":5052.02,"end":5072.905,"text":"就會有影響到很大那重點還有一個就是TPAS因為TPAS之前它是編載那個前瞻計畫所以在115年它是視為新增計畫那會影響到將近98萬的一個通勤組的一個權益那再來還有一個就是健康台灣70億的部分那會強調我整個一個"},{"start":5077.026,"end":5105.192,"text":"疫苗研發的一個能量還有藥品這樣聽起來是每一個部會都會受到很大的一個影響那公務人員我比較關心的是公務人員領得到薪水嗎薪水是可以領到薪水是可以領得到的沒有問題所以說在未來就是說在地方政府的一個新興計畫還是中央政府的新興計畫顯然是沒有辦法推動的"},{"start":5106.704,"end":5131.672,"text":"對 新興計畫還有一個就是原來經常性的支出或者是原系性的計畫比去年還多出的這個部分這個部分有將近1805億那裡面有主要是國防部的一些相關的油料 彈藥的供給還有一個就是交通部的相關那個所謂的鐵路地下化相關的一個機會好 主席長 我知道"},{"start":5132.892,"end":5158.655,"text":"這個就是所有的部會都會受到很大的一個影響那中央政府會不會關門應該不會啦應該不會啦所以預算有沒有過沒有關係只是會影響到很多基層就是我們這些民眾他所有就是說不管是日常生活十一住行裡頭每一樣都會受到影響或多或少"},{"start":5159.668,"end":5175.401,"text":"是 當然薪水是不會影響但是整個國家的一個相關的一個建設人民的一個權益都會受到影響所以可以不可以這樣講說國家陷入高度的一個不確定性我可以這樣說嗎好 謝謝主計長請回那接著國防會副主委我想請教你一個就是說在機器人"},{"start":5184.288,"end":5203.751,"text":"這個智慧機器人的一個聚落會不會淪為空頭支票因為他就是在本席本席的一個選區裡頭不管是他的一個六甲的那個機器人的那個研發中心還是說在柳營那個機器人的第三期的一個聚落的一個行程會不會受影響"},{"start":5204.752,"end":5220.839,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們這一次的新計劃裡面AI新時代裡面有明天編的311元然後我們大概會受影響的有107億元委員關心你會受影響有多少會受影響有多少有107億"},{"start":5222.359,"end":5227.904,"text":"107億的話你顯然就是說像我們在地方一直就是幫你們招商這個會不會導致廠商對地方政府失去信心顯然你也會延宕到地方的一個發展主委我想大家都面臨到這樣的一個困難所以就是說"},{"start":5244.618,"end":5259.949,"text":"我覺得你們可能就是說兩位副主委你們對於智慧機器人這個產業聚落在未來的一個研發可能在因為它是一個起步那我們也知道全世界就是機器人這個產業其實是非常競爭的"},{"start":5262.791,"end":5280.972,"text":"那我們有這麼好的一個AI的一個機器人的一個聚落那如果因為就是經費沒有辦法到位的時候顯然會造成地方很大的影響你們要去準備配套的一個措施所以我們會希望大院儘快的通過我們總預算的審查讓相關的計畫可以持續的推動"},{"start":5281.806,"end":5297.595,"text":"那個我也是希望啊不然我在這裡來請教那個經濟部這個民生的一個治水我想這個盲目的一個杯葛讓我們其實在整個台南西北的鄉親的生命的財產受到很大的一個影響那"},{"start":5302.747,"end":5327.94,"text":"這個在我們看到了就是說那個在之前提出來的因應氣候的一個變遷強化就是黃紅的一個韌性那我們有很多治水的一個預算那顯然就是說在我們台南後壁這個清寮抽水站的改建工程本來已經核定他3.1億的那現在有辦法推動嗎"},{"start":5329.441,"end":5351.748,"text":"跟委員報告這個可能還是要經過我們這一大院的這個預算的審查過之後我們才可以來動之因為那這個部分影響的台南的部分大概有十億左右的預算那這些都是非常重要的治水預算再包括像後壁還有精療排水抽水站的興建的這個部分"},{"start":5352.694,"end":5375.581,"text":"所以次長我知道你是台南人你也是西北你的故鄉也在西北那顯然就是說這樣的一個淹水如果政府已經看到年年淹水年年沒有辦法改善為什麼呢其實這個水液裡頭跟村子裡頭它同時存在了可是這個時間太久了水液沒有達到這個輸菌的一個效果"},{"start":5376.361,"end":5394.807,"text":"變成每次落雨 每次淹水淹一百都是到層頭結果所有在層頭裡頭的人就在看待你的政府就是說你是不是可以花大錢幫我們來做這種輸菌跟滯洪的工程顯然就是卡住了"},{"start":5395.367,"end":5415.334,"text":"是卡住了所以這個這個也是我們也希望就是說應該應該就是說大家大家要齊心同理因為這個政治上的一個攻防是必須必須要的可是如果就是兩黨的一個對立這麼嚴重的話甚至還影響到就是說通情的一個"},{"start":5416.074,"end":5432.113,"text":"危機這個也是交通部你來做一個補充你看喔顯然這個T-PICE這個南高屏的生活圈的一個斷吹的一個風險他呈現在馬上就呈現在這裡面了明年的1月1號你這個通勤就是受影響了那該怎麼辦"},{"start":5433.706,"end":5460.758,"text":"所以我跟委員報告剛講這TPAS主席長也有提到說影響大概98萬人我想要跟委員做一個更新最新的資料其實它已經變成到102也就是說TPAS其實受國人的通行的需求非常的大是 它是一個成功的一個政策一個成功的社會福利那現在沒有錢的話你有沒有什麼應變的方式呢"},{"start":5461.298,"end":5489.736,"text":"現在因為沒有辦法 依照這個規定他沒有審大約如果沒有審的話我這個預算是沒有辦法來動之的那就是到明年1月1號就斷催了對 我就沒有錢可以支付那怎麼辦 那如果我是通行組的話我的業票不能使用變成我自己要掏錢去買這些業票嗎所以希望大約盡快把這個預算審過所以會陷入到1月1號就會陷入到這樣的一個困境就是沒有錢可以支應"},{"start":5491.393,"end":5509.243,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝次長再來運動部的一個改制後的一個斷吹的一個危機那顯然這個是不是這個總預算談在立法院那這個運動部也一樣他只能就是沿用體育署的一個經費所以這個運動部顯然就是"},{"start":5510.163,"end":5531.939,"text":"他沒有錢也做不了事情所以我想這個呈現出來的都是困境所以我在這裡我還是要跟各位再做一個那個報告就是說主計長我說的一個斷吹這個是不是行政運作的一個斷吹還是國家政策的一個斷吹這個"},{"start":5534.341,"end":5547.907,"text":"都會讓國家受到很大很大的一個傷害那如果我們拿民生來當政治的一個籌碼的話我相信這個就是大家都輸人民也輸 政府也輸大家都輸"},{"start":5548.647,"end":5576.583,"text":"那本席在這裡具體要求就一週內提出緊急應變的一個報告計畫到我的辦公室那請主計總處跟相關部會針對的受影響的一個新興計畫不管是治水產業還是TPAS這些計畫就涵蓋在裡面盤點預算卡關的一個衝擊跟補救的一個措施我們盡量讓國人的權益不受政治僵局的一個損害謝謝大家 謝謝主席"},{"start":5577.864,"end":5580.225,"text":"好 謝謝賴委員接下來我們請郭國文委員謝謝主席首先先請主計長請陳主計長委員好"},{"start":5598.325,"end":5617.743,"text":"主席長 我稍微統計一下此次的這個總預算的覆違應該是史無前例當中最晚覆違的紀錄那從陳水扁總統到馬英九總統蔡英文總統至今那審裁預算本來就是立法院的權利但同時也是義務但過去 過去從來但是從憲法的這個規定當中"},{"start":5624.73,"end":5642.39,"text":"這個總預算應該是在11月30號要預決但是從2000年到現在25個年度沒有一年是11月底審完的那甚至只有三個年度是12月底之前刪讀它是因為要選舉那今年呢是更誇張到現在還沒有復為這是創紀錄"},{"start":5645.424,"end":5660.911,"text":"那就如同在野黨的那個團體說在批評在野黨它不應該是據審而應該是延審那要看到的是如果回想一下我們這個會期的時候藍白立委口口聲聲都要服國立民都要推動這個民生法案"},{"start":5661.671,"end":5678.677,"text":"但是後來就推動政治法案甚至連總預算都不審這哪來的福國利民這哪來的注重民生結果跑去中國之後回來又接受了新的任務又開始背個1.25兆的國防特別預算可是我們要去問的是說現在這邊這個問題這麼嚴重將來不是115年度 116年度 117年度可能都會變常態化"},{"start":5688.089,"end":5716.841,"text":"如果都常態化的情況底下一來我們稅收非常的增加那二來呢我們的新興計畫卻不能進行新興計畫是一個投資性的一個國家未來這種情況底下只有鬥爭沒有民生只想內耗卻不顧未來主席長你有沒有什麼樣的好的方法來面對這個問題在面對政治困境當中你身為一個主席長你也是一個政務任命你當然去思考這個政治問題要怎麼去面對主席長請"},{"start":5718.126,"end":5735.403,"text":"是 我們還是希望說大院能夠儘速來審議總預算因為這攸關到人民的一個相關的權益還有整個國家的一個發展尤其現在我們的這時刻那包括我們的那個相關的國防的一個預算也請大院能夠支持"},{"start":5736.344,"end":5762.765,"text":"對 除了大院支持之外你還沒有什麼其他的方法譬如講 你未來預算的當中你就盡量不用新興計畫用過去的預計劃當中來做延續把新興的可能性來做延續有沒有可能這種方式但是延續的計畫如果超過上年度的一樣還是被管制到所以我們今年超過上年度的有1805億然後新興的是1017億這樣子"},{"start":5766.627,"end":5794.42,"text":"對 金額上待會我們還會再做討論而不只是新興計畫連一般性的計畫都可能受到影響甚至是這個救災的相關的預算可是我的問題是說在政治上的一個效應當中它最後的結果就是讓現有的這個新興計畫一般新興計畫是有政見的落實就是一個總統的政見的落實讓你總統的政見不能落實到時候批說你這個政見跳票會不會造成這樣的結果"},{"start":5795.874,"end":5823.299,"text":"有可能那因為像114年度有很多的一個經費是被刪減的譬如說像有一些相關的經常性的業務經費那像院裡頭的一個那個新聞服務的業務那幾乎被刪減那幾乎沒有經費可以維持那你如果照這樣來講它整個是經常的一個維持是有困難的又比照去年的一個額度來執行它整個是遭遇到比較大的一個"},{"start":5823.659,"end":5840.649,"text":"所以我們來換算整個金額就如同你今天所報告新興計畫的部分的經費是高達1017億1017億的情況底下可是你經常性的支出跟延續性的計畫又不能超過前一年"},{"start":5841.69,"end":5866.919,"text":"这边的经费就高达1805亿然后如果再加上预备金 灾防准备金170亿不能动的话加起来是2992亿这也就是为什么今天招偶会排这一个3000亿的这一个不能动制预算所以说它包括的层面不只是新兴计划还有包括其他那现在就所有的这一个内容当中就列举这些内容这个内容都是一些民生法案"},{"start":5867.959,"end":5872.521,"text":"甚至小朋友未来一起养的部分这个300亿也会受到影响吗也会受到影响还有一些未来投资AI的部分也会受到影响最近的天灾又不断AI建设是102亿受到影响AI的部分是102亿受到影响那小朋友呢"},{"start":5893.919,"end":5909.006,"text":"小朋友0到6岁一起养的部分这个部分是主要是说我们有一个生育补助将近41亿元那会影响到12万新生儿的一个其实新生儿的金额大概多少41亿41亿"},{"start":5914.236,"end":5933.473,"text":"這些都說 更何況最近天災不斷連這個災害準備金都會受到影響對 災害準備金50億它也是會受到影響好 那我接下來請經濟部的這個次長經濟部的次長還有文化部的次長請上來一下 請何次長還有文化部的次長委員好"},{"start":5937.469,"end":5958.75,"text":"市長 剛剛救災的部分我們至少還有提到說當然是颱風有一個特別預算但是它是在災休搶休的預算我們分配到大概13.11在台南市的部分但是你如果最後一個未來的強韌性的一個部分的話那很可能需要的是一個新興計畫來去強化"},{"start":5961.943,"end":5986.92,"text":"我記得三個月行政院有拍板定案一個1000億的治水預算這治水預算算新興計畫嗎是 算新興計畫四年要編定650億四年是1000億然後目前這個部分的盤點很多在台南的部分都已經納入其中了是那接下來這些計畫不都停擺了嗎對所以還是想請大院趕快審查通過這個預算"},{"start":5990.95,"end":6007.903,"text":"不是大院請藍白接下來你如果這個預算都沒有辦法的話你還沒有其他的部分可以做一個稍微補救或補強目前應該是沒有相關的預算可以來運賜那個次長現在聽起來是很無奈都完全沒有爭取了半天就預算都卡關文化部"},{"start":6023.602,"end":6040.92,"text":"文化部那個李赤李赤最近我們有一筆經費是再造歷史現場的計畫這個總是舊的一個計畫了吧這不會被卡關吧高雅委員再造歷史現場是新興計畫所以這個三億多預算會受到影響所以"},{"start":6042.401,"end":6061.33,"text":"115年當中我們選區當中有一個重要的文化資產跟古蹟的修復在我的選區當中就有八案外加金潭店的部分九案的這個部分本來10月已經再度召開協調會在11月的時候你們說會有一個出審的結果不知道這出審的結果目前的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":6063.331,"end":6081.199,"text":"目前還在審議中月底我們大概12月底到1月應該會把它完成12月底完成可是我們在追問的過程當中你們還要等待主席總署那個主席長還有一個直轄市各縣市財力分期表還沒有出來"},{"start":6082.279,"end":6097.334,"text":"主席又卡到这一关 怎么一回事是 我们最近因为那个345亿重新分配以后它的财力它的财力级距又做变更所以我们最近又再签一次给院长是因为财务法第一次修法的版本的调整吗"},{"start":6097.694,"end":6121.38,"text":"调整之后第二次又345亿又重新分配的第二次不附属啦不是 那个是另外一个是对 第三次对 它有好几次的一个修正那你这一个财务分级表也会影响到整个未来这个整个中央相关部会因为你这个分级表来做一个资源的配置也会影响到也会影响那你这个什么时候出来"},{"start":6122.34,"end":6150.588,"text":"不是 那第一个县市的一个财力分级我们会先签办出来那第二个就是签办出来之后就会给部会去让他去做对 那什么时候出来我问你就是分级表什么时候出我们已经签给院长了已经签给院长了是麻烦跟院长再讲一下不然各部会无所适从新姓的不行 延续姓的不行全部都卡在那边这天灾不断有一些修复成本只会越来越高不会越来越少好 那主席长请回好 最后再请教一家交通部交通部"},{"start":6153.274,"end":6153.679,"text":"消防部次長來 請吳次長"},{"start":6165.82,"end":6184.93,"text":"五次台南市有相當多的一些新興的軌道計畫當中除了鐵路地下化我現在一個一個問好鐵路地下化會不會受到影響預算鐵路地下化它是原系性的就比較不會影響那個藍線的部分還是不能超過三個年度的就不能超過之前的一個平均那個藍線的部分"},{"start":6188.396,"end":6205.158,"text":"他是欣欣所以欣欣就很困難沒有辦法就沒有辦法 完全動不了譬如台南市政府要動的話台南市政府要自己想辦法中央的錢沒有辦法到位沒有辦法到那你最近一個最新的微笑南灣計畫呢微笑南灣也沒辦法因為是屬於欣欣的"},{"start":6206.414,"end":6224.926,"text":"韋孝南彎也沒辦法 對那能不能先行規劃有沒有可能規劃當然 計劃會有沒有可能現在就是剛剛講的因為他總共的經費他在這一次審議他完全沒辦法下來的話我就沒辦法動連計劃會都不行對 沒辦法 因為這是新型計劃但是完全沒有辦法執行 對好 謝謝好 謝謝郭委員接下來我們請中央嘉賓委員"},{"start":6249.489,"end":6272.756,"text":"主席 參訪委員先進列席的任務監事長 官員 會長 公眾夥伴媒體 記者 女士先生那麼因為今天要問的問題很分散我先預告一下有哪些部門先準備包括主計總處經濟部 交通部 勞動部 衛福部但是不用一下都上來我會先預告那有下一題會問到的時候再會請還有教育部跟運動部好"},{"start":6275.757,"end":6303.18,"text":"那麼首先請主席總處陳主席長然後衛福部請準備好 那剛剛這個郭委員這個中委員有點到名的就依序上台準備好 來 先看一下剛剛郭委員說得好不是本院 不是大院是國民黨民眾黨造成的那我們早來收爛攤子來 這邊說到因為衛經審議不得動之的影響到這麼多那這裡面包括一背經 二背經"},{"start":6303.868,"end":6324.626,"text":"那現在我們看到了你們的報告寫的主計長整體貨配財源低於今年度的排名第一的就是屏東縣對不對那你的說法是什麼那這種情況之下怎麼辦要他舉債因應嘛你是不是叫我們要舉債因應我們屏東已經夠財力夠差了要舉債除了舉債有沒有其他的方法"},{"start":6326.192,"end":6336.16,"text":"因為屏東它整個是負28你說多少 負28對 第一個它會碰到的一個年關的調度年關調度 新人能不能發得出來"},{"start":6339.679,"end":6362.065,"text":"就是年關調數就是所謂的薪水包括年關獎金那我問一下因為題目很多我先問一下我們除了借錢之外我們有沒有辦法像過去人家說窮人家的孩子懂得上進因為沒有錢補習會特別自己K輸我們以前都是靠競爭型計畫請問我們明年還有競爭型計畫可以去努力來補這些缺口嗎"},{"start":6363.12,"end":6387.909,"text":"不是 競爭型計畫也是要看當然啦 我們如果不夠好也是沒有嘛那請問競爭型計畫明年有變少嗎是有少啦對嘛 所以你看我們除了舉債想靠自己努力去參加競爭型競賽競爭型計畫看我們表現好一點可以多拿到結果整體的競爭型計畫也縮水嘛好 來下一個 我們請衛福部"},{"start":6391.298,"end":6414.673,"text":"來 市長很高興看到你可是我們心情很難過社安網2.0我們看到這些經費少了多少本來是預併400億我們本來今年要明年要增加819億對不對我們新增的現在這樣子現在都沒有了嘛還能只能400億嘛我們去年我們這些從事的社區的人員他們是不是需要加薪"},{"start":6415.922,"end":6439.535,"text":"需要啊 我們這個擴充的經費年資升了 專業提高了要給他加薪嘛 人事要提高嘛我們的拓點 這些社區的點我們覺得很好 要拓點有辦法拓嗎如果沒有新增預算我們沒有辦法增額沒有辦法拓嘛 增額本來名額有限我們在排床位 在等名額結果呢 你們明年要擴充一倍以上現在沒了 我們是不是增額也沒了"},{"start":6440.12,"end":6465.917,"text":"報告委員就是說如果真的預算沒有審查的話那我們就是照原來今年度我們不能超過所以要新增的要擴增的沒有辦法做所以我們要新增的服務對象獨居老人新手父母近貧人口受影響侵害的暴力者這些我們都沒有辦法照顧新增的會沒有辦法做原來的我們寄望原來的人他可以加薪他可以拓展他可以增加名額也都沒了他要增加的我們只能照原來現有的除了這個以外還有下一個影響醫療跟健康"},{"start":6469.048,"end":6484.643,"text":"我們去年我們要這邊本來要做的是什麼五大核心要強化藥品原料生產製造儲存及智慧調控能力就是要怎樣藥物韌性是因為我們自己國內的藥品供應是相對脆弱的是的今年有一些缺藥的問題對不對對明年有辦法改善"},{"start":6485.504,"end":6490.168,"text":"我們想辦法但是其實整個體質上就是藥品供應鏈的整個體質還有我們自己國產藥品甚至還有我們整個Peer Center就是整個供應的這個我們有一個供應中心這個部分都在新興計劃裡面所以如果沒有審如果沒有審我們就沒有辦法做可能缺藥惡夢會再出現囉"},{"start":6502.037,"end":6526.08,"text":"我們當然盡量想辦法能夠維持我們的供應可是也報告委員我們很多自己國產藥我們必須要去輔導我們自己來自己做不然全部靠國外的話廠商一不給我們就沒有了所以很重要要省不省可能今年遇到的事情明年會繼續發生好 那麼勞動部請準備我接著再報告委員這是非常重要的一個我們的藥品供應韌性體質的改變真的拜託大院支持好 衛福部還有一題來往下看好"},{"start":6527.481,"end":6539.074,"text":"我說今年考上明年入學無望健康台灣是我們賴總統的深耕計畫第一階段今年這些單位 屏隆 屏機 衡旅"},{"start":6540.103,"end":6567.725,"text":"不平 安泰 福音 訪療醫院 保健這些物理治療師公會他們都在今年被你們評審通過了明年可以參加這個計畫對不對那如果錢沒有省明年他們可以參加嗎有錢可以給他們嗎我們生根計畫的話因為它是四年它也是一個延續但是我們大概就不能再擴增那也不敢確定說能夠持續原來的一個案子可以繼續做所以我們看到這個計畫我們就很開心我們要去考"},{"start":6568.485,"end":6593.584,"text":"結果榜單公佈說我們考上了明年可以入學可能明年的預算額不夠分配是不是這樣我們會擔心接下來沒有辦法延續今年考上明年入學無望謝謝次長我們現在看勞動部部長你還有一題沒關係來先問勞動部來生育補助10萬新生兒的公托沒了嗎我們請教兩個部這些對象12萬胎的新生兒的家庭本來要補足到10萬的勞動部"},{"start":6595.834,"end":6615.182,"text":"有辦法嗎你們勞保的部分是最少的不是說人數最少是人數最多但是相對金額是比較不足10萬的我們大概有快31的經費31的經費就沒有辦法執行所以這10萬人的勞工朋友他們就辦法補到10萬衛護部你們哪些要照顧"},{"start":6616.605,"end":6637.739,"text":"國保我們就是對這邊就是國保或原來國保沒有辦法納進去的我們希望說他在生育補助全部都拉到拉到10萬那因為這是新興計劃所以如果這次預算沒有省這個部分沒有過的話我們沒有辦法做這個好那另外你們補助地方政府的公共托育對屏東縣本來有三個公托是不是也沒了我們這邊公托的預算如果是這樣的話也會受到影響大概有40億"},{"start":6639.221,"end":6645.573,"text":"OK 好 我們很心酸經濟部接下來問經濟部還有後面交通部再來是教育部來 經濟部請教一下我繼續講你們一邊聽 次長"},{"start":6648.188,"end":6673.604,"text":"我們看到了我們看到原來的這些明年的年度的業務預算本來是在特別預算當中的八年八百億後來製水預算結束後你們把它轉成常態性的業務經費但是也是屬於新增的所以如果說今年沒有省這些原來在已經結束的製水預算要回歸到我們業務單位來編的是不是就受到影響"},{"start":6675.427,"end":6703.412,"text":"是不是這個115年度因為你們這些就是把原來延續原來治水計劃那這個還有沒有那個是屬於新興計劃所以還是要請院裡面通過之後所以除了特別預算原來在我們的8年的前瞻計劃我們要把它長年度的業務計劃結果它是新興所以也沒了我們牛浦溪排水中林排水治理今年淹水的明年是不是命定要繼續淹"},{"start":6705.633,"end":6726.644,"text":"我們還是要趕快來通過這筆預算我們趕快來做治理的工作所以我們看到中央政府在過去的前瞻八年的前瞻計畫當中到去年結束後明年要轉入到我們的年度計畫但是也是屬於新型計畫如果預算沒有省 明年這些錢沒有我們屏東的鄉親要繼續淹水是不是很可憐"},{"start":6728.587,"end":6741.811,"text":"是好 我們往下看來 交通部高屏2塊來 TPUS我就不用講了很多人講了南高屏我們的通行有805萬人受影響11億那這個東西像第二塊"},{"start":6746.352,"end":6773.53,"text":"我們本來預計明天要動工了沒辦法執行沒辦法執行了沒有 沒辦法執行市長再講一次我要讓屏東鄉親知道如果說屏東籍出身的國民黨的立法委員包括部分區的民眾的立法委員如果蘇清泉 如果林國成他們不省今年的預算明年 屏東東西江二塊就沒有了是不是這樣子來 我跟委員報告高屏東二塊它屬於新生計畫所以如果大園這邊沒有審議通過我經費沒辦法動資"},{"start":6776.592,"end":6795.207,"text":"所以說我們不曉得何年何月但是一定會延宕至少延宕一年以上一定延宕如果這樣一定會延宕好 謝謝我們繼續看我們教育部跟運動部來有一個廣告這個市長是你有沒有看過Uber的廣告有"},{"start":6796.653,"end":6823.289,"text":"有的點得到 有的點不到眼藥水點得到 眼淚點不到我最近常看的廣告我看看我們現在如果這樣不省預算的話薪水領得到 但是校舍修不到是不是這樣子你們國立大學的耐震補強15億高級中學 國立的高中的這些3億我們屏東有沒有國立大學有沒有國立中學有那如果這些預算不省 薪水有沒有照領但是校舍有沒有辦法修"},{"start":6824.264,"end":6853.109,"text":"沒有辦法 因為這是我們新興計畫我們預計五年內要來完成150來 運動部 次長在嗎來 次長 辛苦你了來 我們很關注運動賽事我們努力的屏東在打造一個運動大線如果說運動部長明天的薪水領得到 領不到那不是新興計畫運動部雖然是新的部會但是部長的薪水是照領但是這些賽事能辦嗎"},{"start":6854.547,"end":6868.773,"text":"報告委員 那個部分當然就很可惜所以說啊 薪水領得到 校色秀不到運動比賽辦不出來 好 再往下看來 經濟部 對不起又讓你們上來了 經濟部來 最後一項 時間關係來 本席在上週才成立一個台灣與亞太國會無人載具聯盟"},{"start":6879.229,"end":6903.22,"text":"目的就是說這幾年來我們看到無人載具新興發展我們政府也積極在推動對不對無人載具不是軍事國防才用得到各行業都用得到是不是是那現在如果這些計畫受到影響那我們是不是無人機到處用得到買不到 會不會這樣也沒辦法控制這一筆預算所以說今天我很沉痛的剛剛請了幾個部會來我要跟我們屏東的鄉親全體的國人說明"},{"start":6908.615,"end":6918.818,"text":"如果立法院 國民黨跟民眾黨堅持不省預算明年我們國民的待遇就是這麼慘謝謝謝謝總委員接下來我們請羅明財委員主席 各位出列習慣的主席 請主席長好 請陳主席長"},{"start":6942.106,"end":6958.152,"text":"陳主席長委員好你好你上任多久了一年多一年多了朱哲銘你認不認識是 他我們前主席長這三四十年以來從來也沒有說什麼"},{"start":6959.315,"end":6980.483,"text":"那個會出現總預算案然後未審要排這個三千多億然後要叫各部會來這邊然後演出一場戲就是說都不審都不審會出現什麼狀況那陳主計長我請問你以前有沒有出過狀況以前也是有你對這個事情急不急"},{"start":6987.114,"end":7009.787,"text":"當然急啊 因為預算沒有等於通過那請問你急的話你為什麼不找方法來處理呢你們以前說罵那個朱哲銘罵罵罵他有哪一次出現問題有需要這樣勞斯動眾然後來演出一個二頭殺三四的一個議會嗎"},{"start":7012.199,"end":7039.38,"text":"這演給誰看啊每個還點名每個縣市然後把所有的事項一一排列出來這為了什麼一看就知道有一些人要選縣長有一些人要選市長在安排什麼大內宣 是不是政治提前開打開玩笑啊立法院這裡又不是第一天演出這個什麼戲啊"},{"start":7041.031,"end":7066.817,"text":"所以我們還是肯定委員能夠來促成審查你說急不急 急那我在立法院30年每一個主計長 立任的部長有問題要溝通嘛你有沒有請教過朱哲銘怎麼溝通本辦公室你有沒有來過你什麼時候來過有嗎 你上一次是什麼時候來的"},{"start":7071.241,"end":7093.499,"text":"你集立法院不過113個立委你為什麼不多花一點時間去溝通一下你集在哪裡呢我今年一年度從來沒看到你來跟我講過什麼啊以前歷任的朱哲銘歷任的主計長那你有沒有去跟韓院長請教過有嗎"},{"start":7097.392,"end":7118.152,"text":"上次是什麼時候幾年前對 幾個月之前各位親愛的文武百官各位親愛的鄉親都聽到了"},{"start":7122.927,"end":7152.112,"text":"不要演戲了演這個什麼雜戲雜報的戲你就是三千億嘛那我再問一下現在可以各縣市的情況連關將至有沒有哪一個縣市因為薪水發不出來會倒的 有沒有因為他目前連關要求調度的部分將近一千多億啦對 有沒有哪一個縣市政府會倒的"},{"start":7154.821,"end":7177.155,"text":"你回答我嘛有沒有哪一個縣市政府會倒的這個要看他整個一個一個能夠舉借額度的一個情形不要講那個喔我也不敢說你是內行人外行人講外行話中華民國在這裡沒有一個縣市倒過嘛你手上都有資金可以用啊"},{"start":7182.369,"end":7200.276,"text":"你知道你上面所講的114年度 115年度你的稅率變多少稅率的部分是不是請財政部來說明這個你自己寫的2兆8000多億2兆8623億那我請問你10年前的時候稅率是多少"},{"start":7214.164,"end":7238.063,"text":"一兆多嘛所以主席長你已經多了一兆多然後每天在那邊哭窮然後那邊喊說快倒了這邊衛生紙買不出來了總統府連那個燈都打沒有電可以開連衛生紙 上廁所都沒有衛生紙連普渡要拜拜的時候乖乖都買不起好可憐喔"},{"start":7239.366,"end":7252.084,"text":"主席長好可憐喔好 那問妳現在國防預算一次要提一兆兩千億是不是一兆兩千五百億那要不要讓他過"},{"start":7253.672,"end":7281.9,"text":"希望大院能夠支持希望委員支持我也支持啊 那個一次過右手一過就是一兆兩千五百億你今天三千億把各部會叫過來然後我好窮 我好可憐那個一兆兩千五百億是分八年對 有分不管啦就是那麼大的一筆數字你每次來這邊就是要錢要錢你能不能哪一次來是講一個不要錢的事"},{"start":7283.669,"end":7291.291,"text":"然後要錢你又不溝通然後我們不同意好像我們是不是罪魁禍首都是問題出在我們那你要問問你們編的合不合理還有你有沒有來溝通過"},{"start":7301.284,"end":7314.012,"text":"你從來沒有來溝通過那我問你為什麼在王金平王院長的時代這個是風調雨順 國泰民安什麼事情都會圓滿解決你們有沒有嘗試溝通過"},{"start":7316.778,"end":7343.479,"text":"沒有 都沒溝通過然後每次來這邊演給大家看我們好可憐 我們不行你不行的話你明天 今天你隨時可以去委員那邊溝通了解清楚不是像今天所有的委員喊來喊去 不行的話長照會怎麼樣小朋友會怎麼樣念書都是語帶威脅的方式來挖坑給立委跳"},{"start":7345.444,"end":7368.901,"text":"省預算不是這樣子的吧主委長 是明年的經濟成長率是多少我們預估是7.37以上啦會往上走啦另外一個單位說3點多啦好 今年的今年是7點多啦今年年初的時候你講多少"},{"start":7371.914,"end":7378.639,"text":"今年的話就是去年去年的時候妳告訴我們經濟成長率是多少預估是多少妳講3點多變5點多"},{"start":7391.086,"end":7412.574,"text":"那今年經濟成長率也7.3多了嘛其實要給大家一個概念就是國庫其實是兵強馬壯國家是很有錢的你們不要說騙不懂的老百姓說什麼要做到3000億剛剛我隨便一講你不是講一兆2500億嗎"},{"start":7416.485,"end":7429.75,"text":"1兆2500億是分8年所以1年才1600多億是對 你要想10年前我們的稅出也才1兆8000億現在你們稅出的預算是多少3兆多1兆8變到3兆多"},{"start":7437.145,"end":7448.305,"text":"各位啊 多了一兆五千億你還說什麼事情都動之不了什麼事情都非常的拮据這聽不進去啊"},{"start":7449.181,"end":7476.893,"text":"不是 我們是以國家要發展建設的一個相關的需要還有人民福祉的一個需求所以我們是希望說這個預算能夠盡量來審查然後能夠來使用這樣主委長 是在現在可以說是國家財源非常豐沛的時候我們的負債 現在負債有多少負債是財政部負責的但是我們目前大概兩兆"},{"start":7481.348,"end":7492.06,"text":"那國債中的情況現在是怎麼樣你這樣什麼事情都要問財政部那你限財政部於不仁不義喔"},{"start":7493.211,"end":7513.324,"text":"所以財政部在他大樓外面寫的國債中的數字你們通通不去看喔連組計長這個事情都不知道那全台灣有誰會知道所以國債中的部分連國家負債多少你都不知道目前是你這預算怎麼編啊"},{"start":7515.066,"end":7523.953,"text":"但是我們中央的國債中這是含地方的部分啦所以這個部分是本身我請那個部長講給你聽總部長他都推給你啊那你要講兩句話嘛 對不對中華民國財政的情況好不好會不會破產現在的國債中是往下還是往上"},{"start":7544.336,"end":7551.401,"text":"委員對於債務的控管財政部一直都是非常的謹慎在做那國債中根據12月19號是253,000他是含長短債都算在內"},{"start":7558.82,"end":7564.104,"text":"那是屬於可控的範圍我們對於債務的控管都非常嚴謹因為我們一定要遵守公債法那國家的財務狀況好還是不好國家的財務狀況在我們在相關的嚴謹的控制之下我們的財務狀況是應該在國際上是受到肯定的而且是獲得非常好的評價我就覺得你做都是賺很多錢"},{"start":7584.198,"end":7612.709,"text":"而且稅收非常的充沛但是問題是委員你看嘛 連續八年來稅收每年超增大概超過八千多億通通都是有錢的但是稅收好同時我們也要多做建設然後對於民眾照顧所以在稅出的部分也希望大院能夠緊述審議那對於新興計畫 新增計畫都能夠執行而且對於115年的預算數超過14年的執行數也才能夠執行謝謝委員"},{"start":7613.269,"end":7630.174,"text":"所以現在一整天討論下來大家都知道結論了就是要溝通嘛 對不對你執政的現在國會是少數就是40%即便是陳水扁的時代也是兩個字啊溝通再溝通"},{"start":7632.11,"end":7656.738,"text":"沒有事情解決不了問題你連溝通都不溝通連立法院113個立委的辦公室幾年去一次半年去一次多久見到韓院長半年才溝通這個不是正確的行為嗎好 謝謝好不好 多多請教一下上一任朱哲銘人家是怎麼做的啦好不好 謝謝"},{"start":7658.117,"end":7670.827,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員今天這一個報告專題很嚴肅這不是在演戲那如果要溝通的話也希望能夠赴會之後來做溝通接下來我們請林思明召委謝謝主席我先請國防部徐副部長還有內政部董事長請徐副部長 請任一個董事長"},{"start":7690.25,"end":7718.892,"text":"副部長還有次長我先請問兩位戰不贊成軍警的加薪戰不贊成要編入預算委員好我們國防部已經給志願役跟戰鬥部隊加起今年以來不是我說你戰不贊成這一次我們立法院三讀通過的這個公布的這個相關的法律對於軍人加薪這個法案你戰不贊成"},{"start":7719.502,"end":7729.001,"text":"我們跟行政院的立場是一樣 一樣好 那個內政部你贊不贊成我們這一次透過的我們跟警察人士條例的相關的修法"},{"start":7729.569,"end":7753.963,"text":"要跟委員報告警察人事條例的加薪的部分我們立場跟院是一致的而且要跟委員說明所有的加薪必須要一體適用而不是針對特別的地項所以這樣子特別特定地項都會造成整個公務體系跟運作上面的不公平也就是說你們不贊成是不是我們立場跟行政院一樣立場跟行政院一樣好 兩位請回接下來我們請主席長請主席長"},{"start":7760.578,"end":7770.888,"text":"委員好 處理長我請教你啦這個立法院以三讀通過且公佈的法律案還有預算提案是否屬於必須編列的預算"},{"start":7771.986,"end":7793.193,"text":"是 我們原則上是希望盡量來編列但是因為它本身它以那個財政紀律法有違它必須要先籌措裁員 相關的裁員那第二個所以我們對於它執行的一個部分有滋生疑義所以我們申請釋憲所以這個部分我們以後就是等釋憲的一個結果我們來釋憲請醒來編列"},{"start":7796.078,"end":7805.094,"text":"是那個 署長我要告訴你其實立法院三讀通過的軍人待遇條例警察人員人事條例這些修正案在114年4月25號就已經總統公佈"},{"start":7809.454,"end":7832.209,"text":"也就是說這相關的法律已正式公佈生效對於已經正式公佈生效的法律行政院主計總處在預算編列算你還有選擇執行的權利嗎這是你的義務喔你可以選擇執行嗎對於立法院三讀通過的法律你可以違背這樣的一個憲政的義務嗎"},{"start":7833.643,"end":7854.701,"text":"我們還是一樣遵從醫院的一個指示那整個一個他對於整個的一個公務和包括所謂的各種公務人員的一個整個一個體制是破壞的所以這個部分呢在人種部分他會做整體的一個考量這個部分我們就會來遵循以上那個署長你的說法根本是違憲"},{"start":7857.372,"end":7877.405,"text":"你這樣的說法當然跟行政院的說法如出一策當然包含國防部或者內政部對於軍人加薪我想他們心理上的基本態度應該是支持的但是由於行政院不執行所以你們現在又附和說對於這樣的不執行你們說行政院的態度這樣是違憲但違憲不是你們說的算"},{"start":7881.548,"end":7907.729,"text":"違憲要經過大法官來解釋目前大法官也沒有作成暫時處分所以你們就有依法來執行這部法律的一個義務所以對於這相關的預算的編列上你根本沒有選擇執行的權利你就是要依法編列 依法行政將我們法律所生的支出需求如實的反映在我們的一個總預算的編列上"},{"start":7908.897,"end":7936.665,"text":"所以你這樣的說法根本是違憲我們是遵照院的一個指示那本身的部分這個也是會是整個一個釋憲的一個結果來做一個辦理在釋憲未有結果前我想行政院的做法已經超越大法官了我想我們依照憲法增修條文第三條第二項第二款規定附議案如今立法院維持原決議的情況下行政院就應該接受該決議"},{"start":7939.126,"end":7964.028,"text":"這個不是政治宣示 而是高度拘束的憲政義務這是憲政義務我想所有讀憲法的人都懂這樣的一個道理我不相信院長不懂所以主席長 副議被否決後在立法院維持原決議的情況之下是不是只能討論要如何執行而不能選擇是否要不要執行"},{"start":7965.277,"end":7988.854,"text":"那這個部分整個是不是要執行其實院裡面包括院長就是只能討論如何執行而不是說選擇說我要不要執行要討論如何來做院裡面針對這個憲法沒有賦予你說你可以不執行的一個義務我想這樣的說法我想我們不能接受根本就是違憲的一個說法"},{"start":7990.356,"end":8007.576,"text":"我想預算的編列權不可以成為實質否決立法院已通過法律的工具如果按照你們這樣的運作模式已經使立法權淪為形式存在不編列預算已經構成對立法權的實質架空立法院在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":8008.337,"end":8024.531,"text":"是配破審查一份未完全依法編列的預算這樣的預算程序完全不符合憲政體制以及我們民主責任的一個政治的一個體制最後我想我也要告訴國防部還有內政部"},{"start":8025.532,"end":8040.809,"text":"还有主席长立法院通过我们军警人员的待遇退休福利的相关修法目的很清楚就是在于稳定国家的安全人力保障基层人员的基本生活在法律以民定权利内容的情况下"},{"start":8041.63,"end":8067.693,"text":"行政院卻未在115年的預算中反映相關的支出以造成制度上有法規且有預算的結構性風險所以不依法編列預算根本就是顯示政府你說要提升國防任性的同時卻對所有軍警人員的努力付出根本是投下不信任票所以我想我還是要呼籲你們依法來編列相關的預算"},{"start":8069.534,"end":8076.553,"text":"好 署長你請回現在我請教育部還有運動部來 請教育部次長 運動部次長"},{"start":8085.279,"end":8099.066,"text":"兩位市長我想上週一也就是12月15號財政委員會前往新竹縣竹北市考察國小體育設施與教育建設的實際狀況同時也同步檢視我們中央教育預算的執行落差"},{"start":8100.026,"end":8125.908,"text":"目前我國面臨嚴重的高齡化 少子化的狀況但是本席的選區新竹縣卻是逆勢成長上週以我們走訪竹北新社國小 博愛國小中正國小 興隆國小 東興國小共五間小學走進校園以後我們實際看到各學校提出的都不是豪華的建設而是最基本的體育與教學改善空間"},{"start":8126.849,"end":8153.069,"text":"因為這些學校的操場 運動場 籃球場使用超過年限都有達到10到20年早已經超過使用年限必須以太舊換新我想如果繼續使用不免會增加孩子運動的風險我們的孩子每天在跑跳使用的這些空間不能因為場地的老舊維護不易而增加他們受傷的風險這個絕對是零容忍所以我請教"},{"start":8157.752,"end":8185.18,"text":"教育部 運動部關於補助國中小學體育設施過去是否都是編列在我們教育部體育署向下更為報告如果是屬於基礎的運動設施是編在教育部如果是一些專業運經濟型的會在所以現在你們有做很明確的預算的一個分工是所以現在這幾所學校的相關預算是編列在教育部的國教署嗎還是體育部也有相關的預算"},{"start":8186.325,"end":8215.855,"text":"我們每年都會受理學校來提出有關於基礎運動設施的申請對 我知道我是說現在 剛才你講你現在這個運動部可能都是對於全民運動或者專業運動的設施的一個補助那這些對於國中小相關的體育設施的補助是現在是會編列在教育部國教署教育部國教署是不是 市長請回答一下是的 一般體育教學用的是編在國教署"},{"start":8216.556,"end":8242.957,"text":"所以說如果我想了解如果說這一次我看到總預算會看到你們的報告如果說這一次總預算沒有省是否會影響我剛才所提的國中小他的教育設施的相關設備設施的一個補助會不會因為這個部分是歷年來都有是屬於延續性延續性跟經常性的一個設備的支出所以不受影響"},{"start":8244.918,"end":8272.538,"text":"如果說我們有要增加預算的話就會受影響是 但是目前看來這些都是延續性 經常性的所以對於這個教育部你也講一下因為現在這個經費好像是編在教育部對不對在國教署但是我們另外有3.3億是要來補助足足秒地區的一個高中的校舍興建這就會受影響這是新興的資助項目這我了解"},{"start":8273.479,"end":8287.392,"text":"所以我在這邊是對於說我們這次考察所爭取的這幾所學校的必要的運動設施的改善經費包括竹北博愛國小爭取270萬新社國小爭取560萬中正國小爭取596萬新隆國小644萬東興國小爭取1373萬"},{"start":8297.12,"end":8314.182,"text":"這些都是很明確有急迫性的這些整件操場跑道與相關的籃球場還有跳遠場的相關的一個設施是否可以納入優先補助名單如果學校有提案的話我們會依程序來審查"},{"start":8315.185,"end":8342.268,"text":"好 謝謝我想教育不能等待也不能打折扣的一個投資面對新竹縣逆少子化帶來的結構性挑戰本席會持續站在第一線為新竹縣教育來打拼嚴格把關預算爭取資源我們希望教育部能夠會議補助讓每一分教育經費都用在我們真正孩子需要的身上好不好 體育部也一樣好 以上 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8343.957,"end":8344.808,"text":"好 謝謝林思敏 到位"},{"start":8363.925,"end":8391.233,"text":"接下來我們請李坤澄召委質詢好 謝謝主席我要質詢的這個部會有點多所以我就先念然後等一下相關主題的時候再依序上來請主席邀請我們包含主計處財政部 交通部 勞動部衛福部 運動部 教育部好 請相關被點名的部會會員直接就到前面來"},{"start":8392.213,"end":8411.26,"text":"來 主席長 先請教一下這個總預算到現在都還沒有附違喔不是還沒有審查 連附違都沒有附違然後這個就您所知的話以前有這個中央政府的總預算到現在都還沒有附違的情況嗎大概沒有沒有"},{"start":8412.199,"end":8429.628,"text":"我們去年已經拖了很久了去年至少到11月的時候有附委然後審查到今年的大概1月20幾號吧至少有審查 至少有附委今年是連附委都還沒有附委我看這個在野黨大概也不會讓他附委審查了"},{"start":8430.268,"end":8456.007,"text":"所以我剛剛聽到這個我們林思明召委在幫他的選區來爭取這個地區訓練預算我心裡也感觸滿多的啦我們委員都希望能夠在中央爭取預算回到我們自己的選區但是如果連中央政府的總預算都沒辦法通過的話那怎麼可能說我在中央在擋預算然後在地方在爭取預算嘛這是矛盾的嘛那剛剛教育部是講得很含蓄"},{"start":8458.231,"end":8482.9,"text":"這個在新竹市的部分的話新竹市 新竹縣 苗栗縣我們還特別針對了竹竹苗這個高級中等學校校舍補助有3億耶這是新的計畫嘛對不對 次長是是新的計畫啊新的計畫你要大聲說出來新的計畫3億元就受阻啦這就是在竹竹苗啊是對不對"},{"start":8485.051,"end":8512.716,"text":"今天讓各個部會來跟全民來講到底你們這些總預算新興的計畫還有包含延續計畫裡面的新增計畫裡面通過的問題在哪裡會影響有多少人特地安排了這一個專報就是要讓你們講出來那像市長你也沒有講出來啊你租住苗就是有3億元耶新增的計畫你就是沒辦法處理啊對不對"},{"start":8514.437,"end":8524.646,"text":"剛剛也特別跟林委員報告說新竹市1.5億 新竹縣1.2億苗栗縣0.3億影響了580間新建教室會受到影響影響到2000名的學生權益這你們要當聲說出來啊完全沒有說出來那請問一下現在地方的這個總預算是不是應該都已經審查完均了"},{"start":8542.178,"end":8558.14,"text":"大部分如果審查的話一定是有中央補助的預算如果中央補助的預算中央現在總預算沒辦法過對於地方的總預算影響會有多大"},{"start":8560.089,"end":8587.533,"text":"補助地方的部分有507億元左右那這個部分受到影響就是在新興計畫的部分那這個部分他就會沒有辦法動之那他地方比較遭遇首先遭遇到的大概就是年關的一個調度那年關的調度就需要我們中央來對他來做一個協助那這個協助的部分我們也是希望能夠大院能夠趕快審查預算我們也盡量來協助地方來解決"},{"start":8587.833,"end":8596.818,"text":"所以我們補助地方的507億那這個地方預算他們搞不好已經通過啦就在等中央總預算通過嘛"},{"start":8598.326,"end":8621.665,"text":"這個部分他們是列在稅入 稅入的部分這樣子對啊 那如果沒有補助的話 稅入就沒有沒有稅入的話怎麼有稅數咧因為我們會影響到了就是說我們在一般性補助裡面有一個321億對地方補助的差額補助那就是比較財力比較不好的一個縣市的一個補助這個部分會影響比較大這321億也沒有啊對 也沒有嘛"},{"start":8623.502,"end":8650.668,"text":"所以還有507億是直接補助的地方還有中央自辦地方受益的還有130億對所以總共有637億是然後呢 這個經常性的這個費用但是我們是比114年新增加的部分1805億是這也含地方的嘛這個部分也有含地方但這個部分因為拆解比較困難所以這個部分我們沒有目前沒有拆解出來這樣子"},{"start":8651.636,"end":8681.016,"text":"好 我再請教一下交通部剛剛有提到這個TPASTPAS在我們這個新北 雙北這個北北陶基其實使用的人數高達52.8萬我們補助的金額是高達37億就是光是這個北北基陶全部啦全國的話是補助地方59億嘛那補助地方如果說這個總預算沒有通過的話給地方的補助就沒有了嘛"},{"start":8681.778,"end":8703.5,"text":"包圍員 沒有那沒有 如果說地方要維持這個TPAS的話他們自己要付錢目前如果看起來是這樣因為中央要錢沒有辦法到位對啊 因為我們是這個補助這等於是補助59億給地方那下次他們要跟這個中央要補助是哪個時候"},{"start":8705.554,"end":8732.906,"text":"如果說明年剛講一開始當然就明年1月1號開始他就會有影響 整個的影響會有所以如果說要維持TPAS能夠繼續運作的話地方政府要自己出錢可以這麼說我們沒有錢給補助了我們目前沒有辦法錢給他好 那個請運動部運動部是新興的部會這唯一新興的部會當然這個受到影響也是蠻大的那你們基本上是從體育署延續過來的"},{"start":8735.046,"end":8749.504,"text":"那你們預算受到影響有38.8億那其中有30億是說補助地方政府辦理興建運動場館還有場地設施是不是包圍人士那這個大概是哪些設施勒"},{"start":8750.485,"end":8779.019,"text":"包委員他主要是在全民運動推廣所需要一些設施還有一些專項的訓練場地檢疫運動場館等等其實是不少對於因為我們這一次主要的預算所以地方都報上來了嗎地方是有報上來的地方有報上來的那新北有沒有報新北有報新北報了什麼包委員那個整個清單我這邊目前你再給我所以也30億沒辦法補助到地方去了對"},{"start":8780.575,"end":8803.666,"text":"好 那我再問一下這個勞動部跟衛福部我們有一個政策 生育給付差額補助都給他提到10萬塊那就是說 因為這個我們對象比如說勞保 國保 公教人員 農保跟軍人這個我們本來有撥補要撥補41.2億"},{"start":8807.32,"end":8834.389,"text":"給這些對象大概有超過12萬人好 那請問一下這個不是每個對象都可以拿到10萬塊比如說勞保生育給付平均是7萬塊所以如果這個10萬塊沒有過就少了3萬塊所以他明年一樣領7萬塊那影響多少人 影響10.2萬人那國保的部分"},{"start":8836.141,"end":8856.44,"text":"報告委員國保的話因為國保它其實就像委員這邊的資料國保這邊其實給的比較更少那尤其是國保的它很多基本上它是自己本身沒有在工作所以我們事實上這次編列的大概719就是希望能夠把這個國保這邊也補上來能夠讓它是10萬塊的補助所以它大概少領了6.1萬嗎是 主要這邊影響最多"},{"start":8857.472,"end":8867.069,"text":"對啊 如果這10萬塊補下去的話我們的勞保的話可以多拿3萬平均來講啦我們的國保的話可以多拿6.1萬"},{"start":8868.41,"end":8887.225,"text":"主要就是希望說願意生育的女性她都能夠齊一的拿到這樣子10萬那沒有這10萬塊就沒有這些補助了嘛都還是維持原來的國保就維持原來的那主卸處知道嗎那公教人員咧是不是知道這個數字會少領著多少跟10萬塊的差額農保 軍人有這個數字嗎"},{"start":8890.421,"end":8910.664,"text":"沒有這個數字等一下會後再提供給我就是說我們要補到10萬塊至少我手邊資料就是說勞保就少了3萬國保就少了6.1萬那這個是多少家庭他們在期待的就是說至少說今年過後我如果有生小孩的話我至少都可以領到這些的補助"},{"start":8911.752,"end":8928.011,"text":"那現在沒有這些預算啊沒有這些預算的話那都受到影響啊然後包含這一個我們也有補助這個地方政府我自己新北市也有設立這一個公用公托嘛這些也都受到影響所以報告委員我們這邊其實在少子語化對策計畫2.0我們要做那個"},{"start":8932.176,"end":8956.005,"text":"公共化的托育設施這一邊我們編了13億明年度那這個部分如果沒有新興計畫沒有過的話這13億沒有辦法下去那地方上面大家我想我們對於生育這邊除了剛剛講到的補助之外最重要的事情就是公托公幼公托這一塊那公托這一塊我知道我想委員也很關心大家都非常關心那大家也很需求這一塊的補助如果沒有新興計畫沒有過的話我們這塊補助沒有辦法出來那所以地方政府就自己出"},{"start":8956.943,"end":8981.358,"text":"如果地方政府那就會是地方政府的財力跟地方政府的預算的狀況那沒辦法出這個公幼公托大家攜手爸媽都很期待說能夠增加公幼公托的名額我看這個大概這個機會也沒有了所以其實前面有委員提到說我們在喊窮喊可憐不是我們窮跟可憐是國家明明有錢但是我們應該要讓民眾人民能夠得到他需求的滿足而且我們照顧的是所有我們需要照顧的人民"},{"start":8982.096,"end":9003.303,"text":"可憐的是人民啊官員照臉薪水可憐是人民你財政有 經費也有但是你撥不出去那請問一下這個主席總署新北市受到的這一個補助總共有多少會受到影響算了一下應該有15億啦"},{"start":9006.493,"end":9010.617,"text":"15億 包含T-PASS10.26 排水整治3.53還有無人載具0.57這些等等這個T-PASS影響到10億運動品牌賽事5000萬然後河川的整治3億5000萬"},{"start":9025.071,"end":9029.594,"text":"然後教育部補助高中採購無人機還有課程4300萬文化部補助再造歷史現場1455萬內政部消防署補助無人機450萬這些加起來超過15億"},{"start":9045.186,"end":9067.235,"text":"這是我新北市部分而已那我也希望說這個新北市的立委 不分黨派共同來支持那地方的議員也一直希望說我們中央的預算能夠通過那不然中央預算是沒辦法通過中央的補助就是零 就是落空對於每個縣市不是只有新北市的所有的計畫都會受到影響"},{"start":9068.075,"end":9093.784,"text":"所以今天特別邀請所有受到影響的各個部會一起來參與這個專報就是要把你們所遇到的困難遇到的問題要跟全民來講有些新興的計畫你立法院沒有通過就是沒辦法用延續計畫可以新興計畫你超過快三千億就是沒辦法用藍白沒有點頭就是沒辦法用要把這個困境把它說出來謝謝"},{"start":9096.632,"end":9101.416,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝李坤臣召委接下來請顏寬恆委員質詢主席 各位練習官員大家早主席有請我們主席長秦城主席長"},{"start":9127.867,"end":9150.245,"text":"委員好主席長早今天這個題目現在已經變成是一個政治問題了現在民進黨又開始從TPAS生育補助 疫苗接種防疫整備等等還有河川治水等議題來恐嚇民眾2025年已經要結束了今天是12月24號"},{"start":9154.707,"end":9182.683,"text":"民眾都已經看破手腳了我在這邊已經可以預見說行政院的說辭一定是又是什麼租屋補貼這個發不出來還有買不到iPhone18還有可能速發部也會跳出來說沒有辦法買車票沒有辦法手機報稅實際上已經要2026了上面這些問題在去年一整年這個所有敘述的那個樣子好像是要世界末日一樣"},{"start":9184.259,"end":9206.527,"text":"但是民眾一樣看到這一些假訊息假圖卡感覺說怎麼又來了 超級沒誠意這個說法也不會換一套我在這邊想要我只是想要說行政院能夠如實地去編列總預算那總預算馬上就可以付為審查馬上就可以付為審查"},{"start":9208.537,"end":9219.765,"text":"應該要反過來回去問行政院為什麼沒有編列軍人加薪預算不編列警消海巡弟兄的退伏金主席講為什麼"},{"start":9221.363,"end":9250.663,"text":"因为均衡预算的部分其实我们行政院这方面是非常重视的那我们也这几年一直都在加薪那但是因为它整个一个增加了将近加薪的部分将近300亿左右那这个部分呢按照财政纪律法应该要先从措财那第二个它对于整个一个包括所有的各项的公教人员的一个整个的一个均衡制度是有很大的一个影响这个你们刚刚都说过了"},{"start":9252.363,"end":9277.115,"text":"剛剛都說過很多委員都有問所以都是同樣的一個答覆我想要知道說為了全民任性 國防任性你們可以錢可以拿去印公校有待觀察的國防手冊然後也可以一波又一波的把錢送到美國但是我們的飛機我們的軍備拿到了嗎"},{"start":9280.496,"end":9307.554,"text":"為了我們國家人民生命財產的安全這個國防部被當作是提款機啦被當作提款機你們不願意把真正把這些錢投注在保家衛國的軍人身上好有這些軍備武器很重要沒有錯但是你們未來如果一旦發生什麼樣的一個戰爭狀態第一線投入的就是這些軍人就是我們的這些軍人同胞那"},{"start":9310.442,"end":9337.705,"text":"這樣子的情況之下你們我們現在這些被忽略的軍人我們現在各單位都缺兵包括我們的邊線比都很低其實大家知道為什麼會這麼缺第一個薪水不夠嘛待遇不足嘛風險又高嘛對不對軍人的尊嚴不被尊重嘛是不是所以這些都不能夠成為加入國軍的一個動機啦所以為什麼我們立法院三讀通過了"},{"start":9339.796,"end":9344.287,"text":"這個軍人加薪的部分還有錦霄 海巡的這些退服金你們就是不編了"},{"start":9345.782,"end":9368.138,"text":"對不對 你們就是不編嘛這個部分它是有它的考量因為整個的一個包括所有公教包括軍警相關的一個平衡性所以人種它會對整個做一個整個均衡的考量那我們目前也請市縣中那按照請示的結合來做主席長 剛剛都講過了請回 謝謝主席有請我們國防部徐副部長請徐副部長"},{"start":9383.636,"end":9402.4,"text":"國防預算屢創新高我們這個軍備案都可以隨便發發給這些經銷商 經銷皮鞋 運動鞋的公司還有一些裝修公司這些都看不出來說他們跟軍備軍購有什麼樣的關係"},{"start":9405.601,"end":9431.144,"text":"我剛剛提到的說我們的預算錢可以拿去印製一些不知道有待觀察的這些全民國防手冊也好或者是我們把我們的預算錢都付給了美國但是我們拿不到我們的飛機拿不到我們的軍備但是一旦發生兩岸發生什麼樣的情況一個戰爭的狀態沒有人希望發生但一旦發生在第一線"},{"start":9432.492,"end":9459.608,"text":"衝鋒陷陣的就是我們這些國軍那我們立法院單獨通過的這些軍人預算為什麼我們國防部不願意表態支持對不對我知道你心裡可能不是這麼想但是你們剛剛在回答這個委員的的質詢上面都說跟行政院態度一樣但是事實上你們有沒有想過缺兵的問題"},{"start":9461.295,"end":9487.244,"text":"到底是怎麼樣要怎麼樣根本去解決軍人的待遇不足風險那麼高兵凶戰危再來軍人的尊嚴到底有沒有被尊重要從軍要從軍你連這樣一個吸引他的動機都沒有沒有人希望說戰爭會發生啦但是一旦發生之後就是軍人在第一線報告委員可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":9490.133,"end":9516.193,"text":"謝謝114年就是今年我們已經向行政院爭取五種加級包括志願役的加級戰鬥部隊的加級又分第一類型第二類型第一類型加的比較多網路戰加級電偵加級戰航管加級所以我們國防部也已經有這個加級尤其是基層的官兵加級額度特別高譬如說如果一個上位他是第一類型的話他總共可以加到一萬二"},{"start":9517.074,"end":9541.54,"text":"所以我們不是沒有假我跟你講 我接到的電話我接到電話 我們台中市一位民眾打電話過來他原來是在 他是大學剛畢業一年他原來是在我們這四大會計師事務所其中一間上班那因為這個事務所加班很晚然後待遇又不高所以他不如他的預期所以他的姐姐 他的姐姐是軍人他的姐姐是軍人 所以就"},{"start":9542.64,"end":9565.527,"text":"告訴他說現在政府要幫國軍加薪問他要不要考慮投入國軍那他思考過後覺得說確實如果按照軍人加薪之後這個待遇他是可以接受的那他也願意加入成為一個軍人所以他就從會計師事務所辭職了但最近他打電話來告訴我們說為什麼行政院沒有履行承諾"},{"start":9567.576,"end":9576.295,"text":"立法院三讀通過的法律案為什麼行政院可以不執行他以為他相信政府會給軍人好的待遇所以他準備加入但是"},{"start":9577.689,"end":9597.714,"text":"這樣子 欸 軍人加薪不是說只是不只是體恤國軍弟兄的辛勞也是要吸引更多專業的人才加入但是就像我剛剛說的這一位民眾打電話給我這一位民眾因為行政院不願意履行承諾不願意認同國軍弟兄的辛勞所以他也就"},{"start":9600.168,"end":9616.393,"text":"又回到他原來的崗位所以現在我們針對專業是有加期的我剛剛講過我們正在全面的提升所以我們三讀通過的法律案行政院不執行但是你們國防部怎麼可以不為我們國軍弟兄著想我有為國軍弟兄著想不為你們 佔了你們的立場"},{"start":9617.173,"end":9644.255,"text":"我們絕對有 我們針對專業都有佳績對於戰鬥部隊尤其是基層的戰鬥部隊我們特別加得多 特別多好 副部長國軍招募的口號是加入迷彩人生精彩對不對 對不對是 是嘛但現在網友他卻說什麼實際上他說人生可以黑白但是不能夠迷彩如果要翻轉這種形象副部長你有什麼具體的想法如何翻轉"},{"start":9646.491,"end":9666.401,"text":"山路人才啊 對不對我說你們是加入迷彩人生精彩但實際上被反諷就是說人生可以黑白但是不能迷彩就是說現在對於民眾對於原來有意願從軍的"},{"start":9667.967,"end":9689.033,"text":"的這些人他們對於我們這樣子國防部對於處理招募軍人以及對於軍人的一個保障這樣子的態度是這樣子所以他們整個現象就是說不願意從軍所以你現在招不到人就招不到人缺兵這是事實要如何翻轉"},{"start":9690.817,"end":9719.026,"text":"當然還是在這個軍人待遇是沒有錯我們也做了剛跟委員報告但是如果整體來看你還是要從軍公教整體的人事薪資結構來考量所以不是只有我們國防部的問題這整個政府的事情我跟你講其實你們回去勸一下左院長只要一邊列三讀通過的我們這些法案總算一定可以付為審查"},{"start":9720.602,"end":9739.859,"text":"總預算一定可以付為審查所以請你回去跟主委院長跟主委院長溝通 勸他請行政院把國軍弟兄放在心上好不好 可不可以國軍弟兄在我們的心上好 可以 那次長請回副部長請回 謝謝因為時間不夠了 那我想那個"},{"start":9746.673,"end":9750.995,"text":"我們財政部莊部長我想請教一個就是我們手機報稅的部分很簡單很短的時間不好意思你可不可以告訴我手機報稅是手機報稅明年一樣可以使用嗎對不對當然當然嘛對不對不會因為剛剛我們又提到了什麼TPAS不行了什麼樣這些今天全部因為總預算沒過所以這些全部都不能做了手機報稅可以嘛對不對"},{"start":9775.047,"end":9790.839,"text":"跟委員報告因為它是一個延續性的工作可以但它在執行的金額上是不能超過114年的當然 這我們都知道另外一個再提一下就是說你們有提一個新的政策就是為了防詐所以推出ATM領錢要露臉的這個政策對不對"},{"start":9792.108,"end":9796.251,"text":"就是金管會以及警方內政部認為應該要這樣子做這個支持然後也可以對車手產生這個組合的效果但是我要告訴你就是說因為民眾會擔心會擔心說這個造成隱私權的問題"},{"start":9807.259,"end":9826.69,"text":"也會怕說因為機械把他們臉部的部分記錄下來之後被政府記錄或者是拿去用在其他的地方就連超過300BPI的照片都能夠辨識出一些私人的這種隱私訊息所以部長因為我們的這個請問一下各支保護委員會成立了嗎"},{"start":9827.726,"end":9837.394,"text":"跟委員報告因為車手或詐團常常運用車手然後把臉部都遮起來去ATM去領取所以這個部分很重要就是說那另外現在ATM其實都有一個錄影的鏡頭在那邊並不因為我們未來對於遮眼臉的部分"},{"start":9849.164,"end":9872.438,"text":"我知道我支持打詐 堵詐 防詐但是就是說因為我們的各自保委委員會還沒有成立然後這個政策疑慮非常大甚至於根本搞不清楚在如何在打詐的同時保障民眾的隱私權這個部分不是只有金管會討論速發部的研擬這部分要更全面好不好"},{"start":9873.338,"end":9879,"text":"當然委員所顧慮的事情在我研議過程當中一定也會把它放進去來討論謝謝委員 謝謝顏匡衡委員質詢結束現在我們請李彥秀委員質詢"},{"start":9900.372,"end":9903.395,"text":"謝謝主席 我可不可以邀請陳主席長請陳主席長"},{"start":9909.588,"end":9932.684,"text":"委員好主席長好 午安主席長你是優秀的公務人員你從基層幹起你的資歷也非常的豐富完整從在台北縣服務到省政府到台南市政府到中央部會那整個歷練過程你是會計出身也是在政治經濟科班的出身所以"},{"start":9933.683,"end":9957.343,"text":"我認為你個人對於預算法總預算如果沒有辦法如期審訊完成我們到底有哪些補救辦法跟措施在法規上或在過去的前例上我認為你應該是都有做過相關的功課你都應該知道有哪些辦法"},{"start":9958.044,"end":9979.705,"text":"我先說明過去也不是第一次嘲笑野大87年前我們預算如果沒有審訊的話有立法院議定補救的辦法有一個我們所謂的補救辦法你點頭你非常清楚87年之後我們用法律明定"},{"start":9980.766,"end":9989.713,"text":"有延續性的支出過去有 去年有 前年有 大前年有我們可以運用 如果預算沒有審訊完畢我們仍舊可以先行動之我想這個你也非常清楚 你也點頭有延續性的預算這個到目前為止 我所說的你都認同"},{"start":10004.825,"end":10028.24,"text":"所以也沒有 我先打斷到這裡也沒有去年在大罷免期間的廁所沒有衛生紙沒有預算沒有辦法省衛生紙中午開會沒有便當都沒有這些事情所以也有補助的辦法也有處理的方式在89年之後 政黨輪替之後因為也同樣有"},{"start":10030.461,"end":10055.311,"text":"嘲笑野大的預算的問題所以我們要在預算法當中真定新興的資本門的支出即便是新的計劃在資本門支出的部分如果經過立法院的同意有一些挑出來即便是新的計劃跟民眾有關係有緊急需求甚至在國防部裡面的預算有一些部分新興計劃"},{"start":10057.185,"end":10070.537,"text":"有緊急需求仍舊可以挑出來只要立法院同意一樣可以先行動之有這個法碼第54條預算法第54條有這個法碼好 我說到目前為止"},{"start":10071.627,"end":10097.279,"text":"其實我要強調的是就目前預算的僵局沒有辦法省的原因這是另外一個政治層面的因素但是就明年度的預算無論是延續性的預算或者是新的預算都有可以解套的方法跟方式當然我從新聞上有看到目前新增的預算舊的延續性的預算沒有問題我先請問在現場所有的官員"},{"start":10100.717,"end":10115.083,"text":"延續性的預算明年如果預算沒有省有知愛難行的地方沒有辦法處理的你們舉手一下延續性的預算人事的 過去有的"},{"start":10116.516,"end":10144.632,"text":"有沒有問題 沒有問題主席講 我先講完我的時間我先講完也就是舊的延續性的預算大家都可以先行動之新的預算只要送上來經過立法院挑出來大家有共識仍舊可以處理有法可以處理而且這是預算法54條所以就目前看來我們是有解套的方法"},{"start":10145.7,"end":10174.338,"text":"但是真正的政治原因就是主席長你也非常清楚現在立院跟行政的僵局在於你是公務人員出身你也這麼資歷這麼完整該編的預算無論是軍人的三萬塊的加薪無論是公教人員的停侃年金其實照理說立法院三讀通過其實就是要依法守法來去做處理"},{"start":10175.117,"end":10199.502,"text":"你前一陣子回答其他委員也是同樣的狀況公務人員依法行政不可以不編即便你認為軍人不可以一致的只有加三萬可能也要依不同的階級來做處理那你就提出不同的版本但是現在的僵局是你不提出你新的版本你要不編列你就叫違法所以主席長"},{"start":10201.092,"end":10222.833,"text":"行政院已經有整理出有沒有整理出哪些是新增計劃我有看到你們有整理出來我有看到今天的預算書你們也有討論過但是行政院長卓榮泰接受媒體攻擊在野黨的方式我是沒有辦法接受到目前為止我相信許多辦公室的同仁委員"},{"start":10224.212,"end":10251.098,"text":"都不清楚你新政計畫到底面對於現在今年度今年已經12月23號了新政24號新政預算到底有哪些你希望面對現在行政立法的僵局那1000億哪些你希望趕快出來行政院挑出來我們立法院先審各個辦公室至少我知道的國民黨團所有的委員不知道"},{"start":10252.83,"end":10272.149,"text":"你們就在那邊等著行政立法僵局繼續僵住卓榮泰所講的一千億的立法院行政院新增預算哪些是新的有緊急性的必要先處理的我們立委不知道只有從新聞裡面看到"},{"start":10273.368,"end":10287.574,"text":"所以說你們有真的想處理嗎我覺得沒有面對現在行政立法院的僵局你們沒有打算要處理你這不編列軍人的加薪公教人員所得替代率的停砍你又不處理"},{"start":10290.395,"end":10315.781,"text":"現在的僵局真的有緊急需要的你又不送出來立法院審也不拿進來溝通談判這就是現在我覺得你們擺爛不管持續的按照過去大罷免的方式抹黑在野黨這就是你們處理的原則好 所以我現在其實都有法可以依據無論是舊的延續性的預算或新的延續性54條都有解決的方案另外"},{"start":10316.841,"end":10341.416,"text":"主席長我要請問你除了預算法的規定之外我十月份我有問你我有跟您質詢過就是說針對於直轄縣市的補助辦法補助款的補助辦法沒有修正過沒有修正過的預告的問題當時主席長你回答我說縣市政府的補助辦法"},{"start":10342.276,"end":10351.645,"text":"要不要預告你說因為這是涉及細節性技術性這是屬於行政規則所以不需要預告你還記得你當時回答我的對不對"},{"start":10354.368,"end":10374.741,"text":"補助辦法對於各縣市的補助辦法你的認知是行政規則你回答我這是屬於細節性技術性的事項我現在不需要跟你吵架但是你現在看你們自己的同仁對於各縣市的補助辦法他就是一個命令他當然做預告"},{"start":10377.162,"end":10402.873,"text":"他當然就要預告對於各縣市的補助辦法涉及到各縣市經費的執行 預算的執行這當然關係到人民的權益怎麼會是只有細節性 技術性的事情當然有 當然有你們自己直接寫這是命令喔好 幫我看下一張朱澤民主席長當時在民國106年的時候"},{"start":10405.222,"end":10430.407,"text":"他也是一個命令 他也有預告怎麼會你的認知跟朱澤民差這麼多涉及到地方各縣市的補助款的部分可以不要預告我剛一開始我就說你歷練非常完整你也是當時公務人員高考過的非常優秀 行政資歷非常完整"},{"start":10431.909,"end":10459.25,"text":"怎麼會是行政規則呢它當然就是一個命令當然要預告 當然要公告啊因為它本身是屬於對於內部的一個行為沒有對外發生它相關的一個法律效果所以這個部分的一個法規命令它可以不用預告 是這樣妳的同仁就直接打妳臉它就是一個命令 它當然要預告啊妳再看前一張 妳的同仁就直接寫要它是屬於命令啊"},{"start":10461.719,"end":10489.175,"text":"114年8月29號行政院令修正直轄市縣市的補助辦它就是一個命令它就是要預告啊對 它是屬於法規命令但是它不是說對於不特定的人民的一個所生的一個所設的事項所以這一個部分不是屬於非公告的一個事項是這樣子主席長你的同仁跟朱澤民年代很多應該都是重疊都是一樣的第一"},{"start":10490.549,"end":10509.15,"text":"怎麼會對法規的認知有這麼大的差異我剛都說你是從基層人員出來依法行政照理說你應該非常清楚什麼是要預告什麼是行政規則什麼是有涉及到人民的權益這當然有涉及到人民權益怎麼會出責任當時的組計長都認為說這有涉及到人民權益所以要預告你認為不用預告"},{"start":10511.112,"end":10535.425,"text":"怎麼會是兩個標準你們底下公務人員主席處裡面底下都是一樣的同仁怎麼會有不同認知的標準我覺得主席長我認為你是優秀的公務人員不要因為換了一個政府之後就對應對著幹因為公務人員應該要依法守法這是我要提醒你的地方以上謝謝李委員接下來我們請王世堅委員"},{"start":10553.077,"end":10572.713,"text":"謝謝主席我請財政部莊部長請莊部長委員好莊部長辛苦了我們在對於不動產的放款集中度的部分"},{"start":10573.757,"end":10585.09,"text":"去年6月我們統計當時我們本國所有39家銀行平均對不動產放款佔它總放款的37.6%37.61%這是非常高的一個額度所以當時"},{"start":10595.119,"end":10618.847,"text":"當時我們財委會就要求財政部也要求經管會就是要針對放款給不動產這個額度要降低當時定的目標額度是35%那結果經過了去年9月調查一次額度已有降大概降到36.71"},{"start":10621.496,"end":10648.369,"text":"那今年12月就是這個月又降了0.01%到36.7%那突然間上個禮拜中央銀行就放寬啦他就說這個放寬集中度就交由各銀行自己自己去監管去控管那我想請問部長就是說"},{"start":10651.125,"end":10665.138,"text":"這跟新青安有關嗎是不是我們財政部因為要推動新青安2.0所以就跟中央銀行報告就要求應該放寬是這樣子嗎"},{"start":10667.932,"end":10671.395,"text":"跟委員不是這樣子央行認為不動產的集中度也就是銀行的貸款額度過度集中在不動產事實上會對金融體系來說事實上不是很好同時也會排擠到其他產業需要融資的資源既然是這樣"},{"start":10687.29,"end":10707.097,"text":"那對 那跟委員這個報告這個畫面上可以看出來不動產的集中度有下降但是央行這次理事會並不是說就不管這個集中度而是回到各銀行你自己要去控管而且我印象中還有每一個月必須要把這個情況報給央行好 各銀行自己控管那我今天為什麼找你上來我不是找金管會你知道嗎因為我們公營行庫這八大行庫"},{"start":10715.393,"end":10735.638,"text":"就是由你管的啊董事長總經理都你派的他們的政策作為你要負全責啊我光是講我們八大行庫好了從去年六月我們本來有要求之下那麼它對於不動產貸款的集中度反而增加了0.84%"},{"start":10739.646,"end":10765.537,"text":"這個增加了5,006億在不動產的販款然後這個反而民營航庫民營航庫還多少聽點話民營航庫去年我們要求以後它降了0.77%八大公營航庫增加0.84%那只有民營航庫有在聽話"},{"start":10766.963,"end":10777.115,"text":"那我並不是說新清安怎麼不好新清安利益良善如果真的訂好規則沒有例外情況的話本來是好但是"},{"start":10779.895,"end":10800.716,"text":"我們過去的行情案就是這三步沒有限年齡 也沒有限首購更沒有限他們收入所以這另外還有一個大的問題就是大量的被人頭來使用所以當然行情案2.0要去改善可是"},{"start":10802.128,"end":10822.808,"text":"可是在改善的同時我們也必須注意對於不動產過度集中放款這個風險比方說我舉例啦這裡面公營航庫光是台營跟土營喔台營土營兩家放款給不動產的額度就高達三兆"},{"start":10824.751,"end":10840.271,"text":"佔我們全國公民營銀行39家銀行的兩成台銀跟土銀過度集中在不動產的放款這一個部分負險過高負險這麼高"},{"start":10844.654,"end":10864.276,"text":"風險不是只有他擔 是我們全體2300萬民眾大家辛苦的血汗錢 存款戶的血汗錢所以這風險度過高那我們如果 部長 如果你一再縱放八大公營行戶 尤其台銀 土銀"},{"start":10865.717,"end":10892.253,"text":"如果一再縱放他們去過度集中的話現在民營銀行他們也來有樣學樣有樣學樣甚至不只民營銀行像華太銀行台中商銀 星光銀行你看它這一年裡面他們對不動產放款的集中度大幅的增高"},{"start":10893.483,"end":10899.746,"text":"那民營銀行有樣學樣連外商銀行啊他們也來推波助瀾分一杯羹你看渣打銀行匯豐銀行這兩家銀行啊他們放款不動產竟然超過50%超過50%耶天啊"},{"start":10919.96,"end":10934.959,"text":"那簡單講就是受到我們政府這樣子政策跟管理上這個部分的空間所以他們就受到另一種變相的鼓舞"},{"start":10936.178,"end":10964.175,"text":"所以這個部分我希望你能夠所以我認為說我為什麼這麼在乎這一點因為新清安我剛剛講利益是良善可是實施以來我們大家看一看它對房價對房價飆漲的這個幅度它是非常正面的幫助了房價的高漲"},{"start":10966.055,"end":10989.003,"text":"我們看一下在疫情這四年2016到2020裡面房價指數的漲幅5.4%那疫情這三年半房價指數漲24.9%但是新青安新青安喔上路的一年內一年就漲了12.3%一年就漲12.3%"},{"start":10993.516,"end":11001.92,"text":"你看看喔過去疫情前喔前四年漲5.4新興安一年就漲12.3那房價所得比它的漲幅佔這個比例的升高從1.4到新興安的時候9.7所以我覺得這個太可怕了所以我要問你的第二個問題就是說"},{"start":11023.953,"end":11034.6,"text":"部長 你認為如何來避免我們台灣的房價繼續高度的成長 你的看法呢"},{"start":11035.781,"end":11039.064,"text":"先跟委員報告新青安這個貸款額度並沒有從那個不動產貸款集中度裡面去排除所以它仍然算在不動產的貸款的額度裡面那第二個部分有關新青安的部分會到明年的7月31號就告截止那這個後續有關的一些調整要不要做調整跟檢討財政部會持續邀同相關機關以及公股航庫一起來做討論"},{"start":11063.18,"end":11079.856,"text":"那在這個親親案的執行過程當中我們也不斷的精進包含醫生只能帶一次親親案另外就是說對於有人頭或出租就利用這種親親案而不是做自助使用的部分其實我們也做大力的追查那其實追回的有關"},{"start":11081.317,"end":11086.859,"text":"利息的補貼已經超過1億5千萬那追回的戶數也超過7千多件這個部分我們持續在精進那後續我們會持續的檢討來做一些調 看要怎麼樣的政策面上要做怎麼樣的因應你說有追回的 不當的新興安的這個比方說人頭比方說沒有現收入這些你說有追回7千多件我們都有 持續在做7千多件"},{"start":11110.489,"end":11123.38,"text":"有嗎 金額多少 追圍多少現在已經是達到8600件了8600件 金額也超過1億5000萬以上1億5000萬對 那個利息補貼 利息補助的部分你總金額再算給我好不好利息補貼你說是1億嘛但是我們花在新青安的利息補貼是數以數是億計啦"},{"start":11140.253,"end":11156.87,"text":"是因為就是我們當時新西安是為了要協助沒有自住房屋的青年朋友們可以有一點自住我們協助青年朋友尤其是剛入社會或者剛創業 剛結婚這個都正確但是不要"},{"start":11158.141,"end":11179.753,"text":"陷入被人頭跟房仲公司跟建商他們勾結好的嗎因為先前你看嘛光查到就查了8000多件啊還有高收入的他也來新清安他不是首購的他也來新清安所以我是要那個部長我今天問你這些問題我就是希望說"},{"start":11181.95,"end":11210.993,"text":"對於房屋對不動產放管的集中度要去降低尤其對公營航庫也就是說財政部跟公營銀行不要帶頭不要再去火上加油讓我們國內的房價一而再再而上推高你看根據這三大房價指數內政部的住宅價格指數國泰的房價指數信義的房價指數在這些指數上面"},{"start":11211.673,"end":11227.742,"text":"那麼這個上漲的趨勢是非常明顯而且是從新青安不當的新青安開始的所以我希望新青安2.0如果要做我們就要做的徹底要幫到真正需要的青年朋友們"},{"start":11229.302,"end":11246.601,"text":"這個收入低的青年朋友們創業的青年朋友們新婚的青年朋友需要幫助的青年朋友們這樣我們這個政策來自於我們全民對青年朋友們的利息補助這才是值得的嘛"},{"start":11247.366,"end":11269.356,"text":"好不好委員這意見我們一定會在制定的時候一定會納入的是 謝謝委員好 台銀 土銀的特別盯一盯他們啦我看他們這兩家好像都是脫薑泥嘛好像他們董事長 總經理好像都不太聽你的話不會啦因為土銀是不動產系統的專業銀行你認命的我只能找你好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝王委員"},{"start":11274.504,"end":11280.808,"text":"接下來我們請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在場下一位我們請黃國昌委員謝謝主席麻煩有請行政院主計總署主計長內政部政務次長以及農業部政務次長請陳主計長董事長還有農業部次長"},{"start":11314.412,"end":11336.559,"text":"三位好 時間的關係不一一問候首先先請教一下內政部次長因為我們在今年三度通過警察人員人事條例給退休的警校提高所得替代率考試院全序部在我的要求之下他們也完成了整個電腦系統重新的更正然後在前幾天已經把新的更正函"},{"start":11338.583,"end":11358.136,"text":"發給退休的警囂這個新的審定函它所代表的意義就是一個行政處分它使得退休的警囂取得公法上面的金錢給付警求權這個審定函對於目前所短掃的差額也很清楚的把它列出來譬如說警政二階每個月短掃了5,326元"},{"start":11360.638,"end":11382.379,"text":"而在全序部所發出去的函裡面寫得非常的清楚說這個差額要由服務機關依規定發起我今天在事發法制委員會的時候請教了全序部全序部說這裡所講的由服務機關依規定發起現在這個主管機關就是內政部請問內政部打算什麼時候給"},{"start":11384.041,"end":11411.104,"text":"報告委員那內政部的立場跟行政院一樣我們現在正在提釋憲所以行政院如何指示所以只要提釋憲就造成了公法上面金錢起伏請求權的中斷嗎這個是行政院的法律見解嗎我們現在依行政院的指示來辦理所以你的意思是說內政部現在申報有幾次依行政院的指示辦理就對了我們的立場跟行政院一致OK你們可以立場跟行政院一致啊到底要講清楚啊"},{"start":11412.335,"end":11440.188,"text":"因為這不是只有一般公民會看有很多法律系的學生也會看我們的行政院現在創了獨步全球的法學理論只要行政院說違憲行政院申請釋憲就構成了馬上可以暫停給付的法律事由這樣子的法律見解行政法院會不會接受那我們就等著看因為我今天已經在社會法治委員會宣布了我接下來"},{"start":11442.585,"end":11467.254,"text":"會義務的幫這些警消提起團體訴訟剩下的事情我們到行政法院再說就好了接下來來請教一下主計長行政院一直提出一個非常怪異的法律理論他說立法院通過的法律案如果涉及到經費的增加的時候沒有行政院的同意就是違憲的"},{"start":11468.973,"end":11493.482,"text":"那這個獨步全球的法律間接啊我之前也請教了賴清德所提名上一位司法院的院長蔡秋明蔡秋明講得非常的清楚啊法律案法律案包括了像老龍津貼包括了像禁法補償涉及修正法律案因此造成經費的增加這個跟憲法"},{"start":11495.353,"end":11513.668,"text":"立法院禁止增加預算這是兩件本質完全不同的事情老龍津貼的部分根本就沒有違憲這樣子的法律看法這樣子的法律見解顯然連賴清德所提名的司法院院長都不認同行政院現在的看法"},{"start":11514.389,"end":11537.038,"text":"那行政院還要繼續的固執下去可能行政院覺得說那五位綠色司法獨夫都我們控制的我們叫他們怎麼做 他們就怎麼做誰敢這麼囂張但這件事情沒有這麼簡單為什麼這件事情沒有這麼簡單因為此時此刻現在八樓未還委員會正在審老龍津貼"},{"start":11538.812,"end":11567.047,"text":"暫行條例要進一步的提升老農津貼給付的數額請問一下行政院主席總署認不認為目前由民主進步黨這些立委所提出來的老農津貼暫行條例要提高給付金額這件事情是違憲的所以這個部分就是按照預算法91條還有財政紀律法裡面的規定是所提的話"},{"start":11568.129,"end":11594.571,"text":"奇怪你們主張的是違憲啊怎麼我現在聽到的不是憲法的條文是預算法跟財政紀律法違法跟違憲是兩個不同的層次吧所以我就請教你嘛現在由民進黨的立委所提出來的老農津貼暫行條例要提高給我們退休老農給付的金額民進黨那些立委所提出來的法案是不是違憲的是還是不是"},{"start":11596.092,"end":11603.219,"text":"民進黨要提這個案子以前有跟行政院溝通嗎所以你們現在理論就更奇特了問過行政院 行政院點頭不違憲如果行政院不點頭就違憲"},{"start":11619.693,"end":11628.704,"text":"我國的算法理論已經進入了一個奇幻的世界一切是行政權說了算來 農業部的是不是有來來 我先請教一下農業部部長不好意思 您是次長嘛"},{"start":11640.529,"end":11665.843,"text":"老農津貼啊經過好幾屆的立委慢慢把它調高嘛照顧退休老農的生活我們大家都支持啦但是道理要講清楚啊當初老農津貼在2005年從4000元調升到5000元是誰提案了知不知道自己的業務不熟"},{"start":11668.772,"end":11691.561,"text":"2005年的時候4000元調到5000元的時候提案的啊是民主進步黨立法院黨團提案人包括了柯建民跟賴清德現在大家就完全看不懂啦當初賴清德自己當立法委員的時候提高老農津貼給付的數額是立法委員提案喔沒有違憲"},{"start":11693.032,"end":11705.866,"text":"那但是呢等到他自己掌控了行政權了以後立委只要提高透過修正法律提高給特定的族群給付的金額就違憲"},{"start":11707.909,"end":11735.639,"text":"這種瀑布全球的理論讓人家完全沒有辦法理解沒有關係主席說時間到了但是道理要說清楚謝謝黃委員這個主席長要講清楚不是說跟行政院報告就可以是要跟行政院講說這個裁員到底在哪裡才行而且我記得民進黨委員提案裡面沒有說要提高金額到多少"},{"start":11740.075,"end":11758.49,"text":"接下來下一位我們請鄭天才委員主席有請主計長還有內政部"},{"start":11764.065,"end":11785.858,"text":"內政部的代表 次長還有國防部 許副部長 董事長我們先談警消海巡本席質詢過很多次"},{"start":11787.901,"end":11812.915,"text":"質詢誰呢 我曾經也質詢過現在的考試院院長當時他是前序部的部長因為錦霄還有海巡的退休的規定是跟公務員放在一起事實上工作完全不一樣"},{"start":11814.387,"end":11840.208,"text":"如果我們以這次北捷的隨機殺人案現在如果我每天做捷運現在捷運都增加警力了所以在這樣的情形下工作不一樣所以我當初就要求質詢希望把警消"},{"start":11841.92,"end":11870.02,"text":"海巡的退休要放在警察人員人事條例要脫離這個公務人員的部分所以一直沒有做現在考試院院長當前西部部長的時候他是支持的但是要內政部要提出來行政院要提出來所以好不容易這個警察人員人事條例做了修正把這些警消"},{"start":11871.274,"end":11899.691,"text":"海巡的退休的規定移到警察人員人事條例這個結果行政院提出覆議按照中華民國憲法徵修條文第三條第二項的規定第二款行政院對立法院的決議法律案可以提覆議如果認為有自愛難行可以提覆議"},{"start":11901.365,"end":11927.356,"text":"所以也提了復議立法院也做了決議復議不通過那按照中華民國憲法徵修條文第三項第二項的規定復議時如今全體立法委員二分之一以上決議維持延按行政院院長應即接受該決議"},{"start":11929.968,"end":11957.47,"text":"這個條文夠清楚了 應即接受該決議不只是接受了 還附屬了呢院長的名字 內政部部長的名字都有了公佈按照中央法規標準法就生效了生效之後就施行了政府機關依法行政是最基本的 最起碼的"},{"start":11959.13,"end":11975.486,"text":"所以要請這個主席長 要請內政部要去跟這個行政院院長就編預算這個事實嘛 事實是不一樣嘛 對不對"},{"start":11979.793,"end":11997.636,"text":"我們這個會等到說釋憲我們有申請釋憲然後等到釋憲的一個結果我們就來根本就不應該釋憲那第二個就是說因為他本身還要合作相關的裁員還有什麼釋憲好 你提到這個釋憲主席長我來說好花東地區發展條例民國101年"},{"start":12008.433,"end":12032.712,"text":"民國一百年公佈施行一百零一年開始編列預算花東第七發展條例要編列四百億的基金沒有行政院的版本沒有行政院的版本立法院的提案三讀通過當時馬英九總統執政"},{"start":12038.362,"end":12064.458,"text":"也沒有去提復議就照樣編一算因為確實花東地區的發展均衡發展這符合憲法均衡發展所以立法院審查通過的法例案百分之九十以上都會跟什麼會跟預算有關係"},{"start":12067.955,"end":12089.387,"text":"90%除了那個基本法之外基本法也會規定多少錢還是會有所以這個部分我們看這個軍人待遇條例也是一樣這麼辛苦的軍人對不對然後職業軍人越來越少職業軍人又越來越少不是2027年打仗了嗎既然2027年打仗了"},{"start":12096.994,"end":12117.414,"text":"對不對 就能 大意要提升所以這個部分因為主席已經站起來了所以這個部分要請國防部 請組紀長要去跟行政院院長講要編譯算 要編譯算 要編譯算以上 謝謝好 謝謝鄭委員接下來我們請"},{"start":12122.829,"end":12140.5,"text":"黃婕委員黃婕委員黃婕委員不在下一位吳思瑤委員吳思瑤委員吳思瑤委員不在場下一位蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在場下一位邱志偉委員"},{"start":12151.308,"end":12174.148,"text":"謝謝主席 是不是先請行政院主席總書 陳主席長請陳主席長經濟部代表 然後交通部代表委員好來 請經濟部何次長 交通部次長農業部代表農業部次長 黃次長這個 主席長先請教您是這是近十年來最晚婦委的一次是"},{"start":12175.782,"end":12188.6,"text":"那還沒有附委院長還沒報告嘛那這個會期就剩下幾天那可能研會到這個1月底同樣的狀況我想還是持續延續他不會讓你附委也不會讓你報告"},{"start":12189.983,"end":12214.903,"text":"所以你今天的報告內容是針對說第一法院完全沒有針對中央政府總預算在任何審查狀況之下也沒有刪除情況之下我們只能按照過去年度的經常經常們的這個預算來指引增加的部分不能動新興計劃也不能動這是最壞的狀況嘛所以最壞的狀況影響三千億這種情況會不會 有沒有可能發生"},{"start":12216.367,"end":12238.325,"text":"第一個部分就是新增的部分但是新增的部分就是1017億但是他這裡面有一附到一個條件針對新增的部分你如果確實有需要可以報立法院來同意另外一個就是比去年經常新的支出還有資本門的延續性的計畫比去年還多的部分這個部分包括是1800多億"},{"start":12240.486,"end":12255.855,"text":"也不能暴力法院同意再來就是說我們第一預備金第二預備金還有災害準備金都不能動也沒有經過暴力法院同意之後可以通知的只有新興計畫可以對不對所以最壞最壞的狀況他都沒有跟你信他都沒有贊助他沒有給你報告"},{"start":12260.638,"end":12272.617,"text":"那影響最大的就是大概就是這個一般的計畫跟這個災害整備金跟第一第二預備金新增的部分新增計畫它也不見得會讓你過對不對"},{"start":12274.983,"end":12291.146,"text":"所以阿倫赤崎最嚴重的後果就是三千億國家有什麼不可以用在國家建設不可以用在這個為人民的福祉為國家的建設是所以如果要這樣它不需要福利委員會不需要三途政是禍國殃民"},{"start":12293.084,"end":12320.222,"text":"這影響國家的建設 國家的發展 人民福祉很大指正黨可以為國家造福 為人民服務 對不對南加五省都經過詳細的計畫 詳細的編列然後用在人民的身上 用在國家的建設如果這三星沒有過 所有受害的都是台灣人民影響是國家建設停頓 影響很大 對不對"},{"start":12321.348,"end":12350.721,"text":"主要是有比如說我們對縣市的一個補助這裡面有321億那主要是因為我們要希望增加那個地方的一個調度能力這個我都知道各部會的這個各部會所說的影響我都看過了所以我今天為什麼請這個主席主席主要是針對這個整體的狀況做一些的分析跟評估是很嚴峻如果真的沒經過是非常嚴峻對國家建設對人民福祉是造成很嚴重的傷害"},{"start":12352.782,"end":12363.685,"text":"這是真是禍國殃民 倒行逆施這是對不起台灣人民好 大家針對建設個別部分的部分我先請教一下經濟部"},{"start":12369.433,"end":12386.343,"text":"對南部 南部當然是這個過去這個治水防洪是這個南部包括高雄是重大的這個建設好 如果今年總計上沒有通過對高雄治水防洪水利建設會造成哪些影響"},{"start":12387.972,"end":12409.931,"text":"我們這一次編列明年度的這個治水預算用在高雄大概有14.5億是新興計畫的部分會受到影響那加上長年計畫用在高雄的年度計畫也大概超過30億了就是這個治水部分就是這個部分然後補助給這個高雄市政府在經濟發展方面的部分呢"},{"start":12411.217,"end":12426.047,"text":"這個部分並沒有任何其他相關的補助自選防洪直接影響到這個高雄河川城市跟自選防洪就影響將近15億對 15億謝謝何市長好 下一位請這個交通部代表是 委員好謝謝這個市長是對高雄的交通建設"},{"start":12435.768,"end":12455.257,"text":"如果今年預算沒辦法審新計劃沒辦法動之啊因為將會影響多少預算規模對高雄市的建設交通建設現在高雄市的新興建設目前像比如說像子縣那其他還在規劃還沒有完成所以他不算是新興計劃你講一個數字你來這邊報告應該很詳細你這影響"},{"start":12460.299,"end":12475.965,"text":"我這邊大概幾個捷運的部分因為原來列前三嘛列前三的部分如果以高雄岡山的路子的部分大概是總共是518沒辦法執行啊5800萬對不起5800萬沒辦法執行多少就捷運多少5800萬那另外黃線的部分呢黃線它屬於延續性的"},{"start":12482.033,"end":12496.32,"text":"所以對交通建設我希望你再提供一個詳細資料給我對高雄市交通建設的影響主席再給我這個40秒農業部這個黃市長對高雄包括農協議各項建設這個預算中間總預算沒辦法通過新計劃沒辦法執行會影響多少預算規模"},{"start":12504.683,"end":12529.459,"text":"就整個的部分我們在防洪治水的這個部分大概還有這些林保的部分我們會有總共大概有74億的這樣的一個影響74億 包括這個農業的這個建設我們包括那個治山防洪還有這個農水路的這些的維修整建還有這些林保的這個部分的維護"},{"start":12530.659,"end":12548.146,"text":"拜託這三個部會經濟部跟交通部還有農業部是不是對高雄建設的影響有一個比較詳細完整的清單跟資料再提供給我好 謝謝給你謝謝邱委員接下來我們請陳冠廷委員"},{"start":12562.469,"end":12590.167,"text":"你好 我們請國科會副主委來 我們請國科會副主委委員好副主委好副主委在進入此舉前我還是想跟大家強調我們115年度的總預算到現在還沒有開始審議那根據預算法的規定新興計劃的預算是要審議通過才能夠動之"},{"start":12591.448,"end":12617.116,"text":"那這會讓我們一些計劃沒有辦法如期的去推動那這3000億裡面的新興計劃我個人特別重視特別是AI的算力中心還有我們的次世代的科技量子的科技還有電力建設這些都是攸關於我們國家競爭力的關鍵投資也就是說今天如果不做那明天會後悔今年不做明年後年可能也追不上所以我今天要請教各個部會如果這些計劃被卡住"},{"start":12617.816,"end":12641.682,"text":"它的發展對國家發展的影響各自有多大跟你們未來的備案是什麼首先副主委這3000億的新興進化裡面AI算力中心是重中之重特別是它是現在我們目前的強項我想請教目前的這種高階的GPU像NVIDIA的GP200全球交期大概是要多久"},{"start":12643.795,"end":12669.797,"text":"這個部分因為看所有的訂單的狀況那當然目前因為是賣方的市場所以都要稍微等一段時間但我們都會預先去做預訂大概就是要預先就是我們大概知道說可能要等一段時間那我們自己去做一些簡單的情報的搜尋大概GPU的全球供貨吃緊如果是這種等級的交期大概是要一年左右"},{"start":12670.714,"end":12685.245,"text":"一年 所以說如果我們明年的預算這一個沒有辦法通過沒有辦法下訂那等了預算過後再訂交又再等一年那這樣算起來我們的算力建設大概會落後多久一年半還是兩年"},{"start":12686.055,"end":12700.975,"text":"因為算力建設主要是逐步來提升所以這個確實會對整個算力提升的影響會造成影響其實主要在AI新十大建設裡面最主要影響到的在國科會的預算裡面主要有三大部分"},{"start":12701.656,"end":12716.563,"text":"第一個部分是剛剛委員所提到的算力第二個部分大概是矽光子的發展第三個部分是智慧機器人的發展尤其是智慧機器人的發展是AI在落地應用上面受到影響最大的部分所以我們也期待盡快的通過預算能夠讓這部分能夠執行"},{"start":12717.583,"end":12742.606,"text":"所以說等於是一環扣著一環當我們沒有辦法得到這一些最先進的這種重要的零組件原料我們就把它假設成原料你就沒有辦法製成我們想要的物品貨品或者是服務現在如果阻斷了這個東西的話等於是一連串我們國家的進步特別是在這一種運算上面就會落後我們現在講的是現在的科技接下來我們講的是未來"},{"start":12743.146,"end":12762.524,"text":"次世代的我們可能未來要面對的挑戰我們也是未來可以努力的展望量子的計算這個量子計算115年的量子科技的計畫裡面我看到裡面有包含興建實驗大樓還有採購一些關鍵設備譬如說西式冷凍機這種核心設備全球交期大概多久"},{"start":12763.805,"end":12774.886,"text":"這個部分我們可能要查詢一下再跟沒關係 我們直接來去因為我們有先做研修所以我們先跟你說明一下這些精密設計交期是18到24個月"},{"start":12776.26,"end":12805.328,"text":"所以說如果18到24個月今年預算卡關的話明年沒辦法下單那我們等四倍就是2028年那我為什麼一直要強調這個量子計算因為我們現在所得到的這些半導體的紅利那是過去十幾年前二十年前三十幾年前一代一代的人把它累積起來的量子計算也是我們如果要在未來還能夠持續穩定的在算力也好在高科技產業領先的話那我們現在就必須投資未來今天就必須投資明天的東西"},{"start":12806.088,"end":12823.184,"text":"現在我們跟這些日本也好美國也好的國會議員都有談到他們都非常重視在量子人才的設備人才的投資所以我們已經看到未來了如果我們現在沒有做相應的準備的話這個影響是非常大的所以"},{"start":12823.664,"end":12852.917,"text":"我在這邊也是要呼籲我們這個在野黨的同仁這些東西跟我們主要的爭點可能不見得有直接相關我知道在野黨的這一些同仁們可能重視的是對國防上面看法不同等等的但是我們現在講的是我們有共同的一個議題就是在我們的高科技產業大家都重視台灣的半導體產業大家都重視我們下世代的產業如果都重視這個東西的話至少在科技上面"},{"start":12853.617,"end":12869.934,"text":"國科會上面也好甚至還有剛才我們其實今天沒有辦法談及的這些太空產業也好今天不做明天就會後悔那如果過去這一個十大建設的時候有一些比較年長的這些我們立法院的同仁有經歷過的話那就知道說"},{"start":12870.875,"end":12895.973,"text":"現在的十大建設也是為了明年 十年 二十年所以還是在這邊誠摯的來跟我們立院的同仁來去希望能夠盡快的把這些重要的對台灣科技重要的盡快進入審議 謝謝謝謝委謝謝陳委員接下來我們請蔡義瑜委員蔡義瑜委員蔡義瑜委員好 不在場"},{"start":12897.25,"end":12911.729,"text":"今日登记发言委员均已询答完毕本次会议桌如下决定一 报告及询答完毕二 委员执行未及答复或请补充资料请相关部会于一周内以书面答复委员另要求期限者从即锁定"},{"start":12912.29,"end":12931.841,"text":"三 委员陈玉珍林楚英吴思瑶所提书面质询均列入记录刊登公报并请相关部会以书面答复四 本次会议议程已经行完毕堂友不在场委员补题书面质询一并列入记录刊登公报并请议事人员协助处理好 我们先不散会祝福大家圣诞佳节平安"}]}},{"id":"166673","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166673","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60809acea8ab8bff828f4e93bf07b6087f1e7720c7178afcf33dc5b1e4eb39a2a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"14:11:02 - 14:21:02","影片長度":"00:10:00","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T14:11:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T14:21:02+08:00","duration":600,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.042843750000001,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.480343750000003,"end":41.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.509718750000005,"end":41.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.454718750000005,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.150343750000005,"end":47.297843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.344093750000006,"end":66.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.617843750000006,"end":52.056593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.46784375,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.92221875,"end":75.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.77721875,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.79409375,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.97096875000001,"end":108.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.10596875,"end":87.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.30409375,"end":90.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.89784375,"end":96.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.89596875000001,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.31721875000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.29971875000001,"end":117.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.03721875000001,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.04034375,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.73221875000002,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.30159375,"end":131.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.14096875,"end":134.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.02659375000002,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.57409375,"end":144.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.96909375,"end":161.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.65971875,"end":168.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.15659375,"end":192.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.43846875,"end":175.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.42971875,"end":176.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.54971875,"end":196.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.36346875,"end":195.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.11846875,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.96221875,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.02971875,"end":199.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.28284375,"end":202.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.57346875000002,"end":210.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.25971875000002,"end":213.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.57159375,"end":224.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.30971875,"end":214.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.09284375000001,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.71221875,"end":230.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.72909375,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.74596875,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.03284375,"end":236.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.10034375,"end":234.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.65221875,"end":239.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.06971875000002,"end":238.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.97659375,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.02721875,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.97221875000002,"end":244.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.24221875,"end":242.76096875000002},{"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農業部長有請來 有請陳部長部長午安"},{"start":16.731,"end":41.388,"text":"這個剛剛有委員在談這個事你們在政策對話的過程中本席在那邊聽說談到了一個很重要的問題就是說大家今天除了討論修法的內容到底是一萬二一萬五牌幅的門檻要怎麼做處理之外真正我覺得比較值得大家思考一下的問題是修法過了之後到底拿不拿得到對不對按照陳部長剛剛的說法修法過了拿不到是因為到目前為止115年的中央政府總預算還沒有進入附會審查的這個階段"},{"start":42.548,"end":66.136,"text":"那部長知道為什麼總預算到現在沒辦法復違嗎我想總預算在這個會期應該是在審預算的一個情況那審預算裡面就算我個人認為就算委員有一些不同的意見但是還是要讓總預算進行實質的審查跟討論那討論的過程中我想各部會一定會提出他的說明以農業部來講我們的預算已經準備在那邊了"},{"start":66.496,"end":84.049,"text":"好 你講啦 跟你農業部沒有什麼關係啦總預算之所以到現在沒有辦法付為審查是因為軍人加薪的這筆錢該編的時候沒有編嘛警察消防 你先聽我講完嘛警察跟消防人員的退休的這個停侃或者是說重新調整退休金這部分你該編入公務預算沒有編嘛"},{"start":85.55,"end":100.676,"text":"這個就是橫平性的問題因為一般立法院在申請預算的時候不能增加預算因為預算如果說以今天農民...是啊 那我要問你啊居然待遇條例是法律案還是預算案我告訴你這個部分我就用農民經貸一樣農民經貸也有經費的問題但是這個經貸如果經過討論"},{"start":104.717,"end":131.086,"text":"行政單位如果認可的話那就是行政單位會編預算嘛所以行政單位還要認可請問現在今天版本有院版嗎沒有對不對那今天民進黨的召委排審的條文今天只是質詢跟備詢並沒有進到實質的討論那實質討論的時候院版的一定會進來我告訴你啊按照正常的邏輯這個立法院審查大概法律案就是法律案預算案就是預算案對不對今天的但是法律案如果裡面有"},{"start":131.706,"end":158.004,"text":"簽約到預算的絕對數目的時候那就必須要經得我們行政院的同意所以你的意思是說我們在審理任何的法案之後我們還要一定要經得你的同意也就是說未來我們在這個場合不管討論出來要經過討論嘛你先聽我講完嘛不管這個委員會討論出了什麼樣的結果只要你不同意所以你就可以後面可以不執行意思就這樣子囉不是我的意思是說我們一定要進到委員會做充分的討論甚至在院會經過充分的討論但是沒有經過充分的討論的之下"},{"start":161.887,"end":176.738,"text":"像農民年金如果今天有人喊到兩萬塊然後不經過討論也不讓我們表達意見的時候部長 我現在很擔心啦我剛剛講啊 正常邏輯法律案就是法律案條例就是條例 預算就是預算這不一樣喔我們當然都知道法律案裡面有一些是含有預算我們當然都知道 聽我講完嘛"},{"start":177.859,"end":196.199,"text":"我們當然都知道預算案我們不能主動提增加這就是我剛剛回答你第一個問回答剛剛大家討論第一個問題為什麼總預算沒辦法付為因為沒有辦法在付為的時候把軍人該加的薪水加回來沒辦法把警消人員該有的退休金討回來沒辦法因為我們尊重預算案的性質嘛不能因為這樣子而擋了總預算進到審查但是問題就是你法律不執行嘛對不對"},{"start":196.92,"end":213.666,"text":"好 那現在法律案裡面如果包了預算的金額的部分你們自己的行政院都自己可以創設規則也就是說如果法律案包括預算案就一定要經過行政院的同意那請問我們還要立法院幹什麼我說一定要經過行政院的一起來討論那討論會找到一個共識嘛我請問你啊 我是內政委員會啦我們當初審原住民進房補償條例的時候有沒有討論有討論嘛 沒有共識而已對不對"},{"start":222.529,"end":229.498,"text":"那沒有共識是不是要按照立法院的規矩按照議事的程序 經過投票表決來做最後的結果 對不對"},{"start":231.159,"end":252.627,"text":"你怎麼能夠期待一個全世界哪有一個國會所有的案子都是無一一通過對不對哪有這樣子的所以是要討論嘛對嘛經過討論之後沒有結果所以才表決啊現在總預算連進到討論的機會都沒有我現在講的是前面的法律案包含進法補償條例包含軍人待遇條例包含警察人員人事條例是不是都經過討論沒有共識才表決對我農業部來講我現在關心的就是總預算有沒有覆違"},{"start":257.213,"end":277.909,"text":"所以今天討論這個老農年福利今天也是一樣經過討論之後民進黨現在有民進黨版本你院裡面的版本到現在沒有出來國民黨有國民黨的版本大家的版本不一樣很有可能到了最後也沒有共識要經過要經過表決的程序做出最後的決定現在你剛剛的意思是說只要這個決定出來的東西你不滿意你就可以不執行是嗎我沒這樣說喔你沒有這樣講我沒這樣講啊"},{"start":280.171,"end":301.745,"text":"所以我說大家要討論然後最好能夠朝著一個共識然後在共識的過程中你剛剛跟我講說這個行政院要同意才行啊你剛剛沒有這樣講嗎我說協商以後要同意我們認同協商以後要同意那不就是要同意嗎那萬一沒有結果呢萬一沒有結果呢過去的很多法律案的部分沒有共識的話就會先放在那邊找到有共識的嘛"},{"start":302.105,"end":320.875,"text":"法律案沒有...法律案如果沒有共識要做決定就要表決嘛那不然幹嘛設計表決的機制呢法律案的部分我們農業部非常多的法律案扯到非常多的利害關係人看起來陳部長是蠻想當立法委員的這我尊重啦好不好但是我現在很擔心啦我是一點都沒有興趣當立法委員"},{"start":321.395,"end":335.684,"text":"現在我們現在擔心的地方是今天我們在討論老年農民的福利津貼如果到最後沒有讓民進黨吃自助餐的話那是不是到了最後你會不會執行 我先問如果最後表決結果通過的是一萬五千塊的版本你會不會執行"},{"start":336.755,"end":361.189,"text":"如果啦 我不做這樣的預期你不做這樣的預期而且我相信我們的版本提出來的話我能夠說服所有的委員你要說服所有的委員只會說委員是不講理的直接經過討論的程序在立法院刪除通過最後結果如果是一萬五千塊你要不要執行嗎我不考慮假設性的問題你現在又不考慮假設性的問題我不回答這種假設性的問題因為我不認為委員最好你這個沒有說實話啦我告訴你我告訴你現在的委員是喊"},{"start":362.671,"end":381.231,"text":"我寧願聽到你講真話你講真話講說你沒有辦法做主這我就接受 為什麼當初在審計碼補償條例的時候原民會也講說我們很支持這樣的東西增加但到最後也不是他說的算我沒有這樣講喔 我沒有這樣講我說過一萬五我是不支持的啊我舉個例子給你聽嘛 對不對那到最後是行政院可以片面的決定要或不要嘛"},{"start":381.872,"end":398.946,"text":"那我們到底今天在審查什麼東西呢 對不對今天是在 備詢是在做討論做意見的溝通我們不同的立場有不同的設計的方法我們現在在做溝通我們就有直指問題的核心今天在場的 請問哪一位官員有把握就是說今天到最後經過完整的討論程序最後三讀通過的法令一定會被執行"},{"start":399.927,"end":413.553,"text":"你可以掛保證被執行嗎我告訴你這個部分就是你剛剛都以農業部長的身份去講說我不能回答假設性的問題你為什麼不能回答一個經過完整立法程序三讀通過的法案為什麼不能執行"},{"start":414.505,"end":441.424,"text":"那要看那個法律所設計的這些這些內容是不是在行政行政單位有執行困難的地方如果執行有有障礙的地方的話當然不能執行啊所以你剛才講的假設性問題像15000我已經表態15000是是做不到的因為從財政支出來講是做不到的更更何況是總預算是沒有通過的我現在就很擔心這種吃自助餐的狀況嚴重影響了大家立法院審查法案的公信力跟狀況"},{"start":442.765,"end":470.583,"text":"對不對 按照過去的時候當初老年金從第一開始立法我們決定要發的時候如果當初的行政單位就是這種態度的話那我恐怕今天大家也不會有老中心貼的不是嗎我跟委員講我也不是今年才站在這個立法院的在過去的立法過程中我們都是盡量的大家找到一個包括行政單位跟立法單位都找到一個共同的一個目標跟共識然後再去落實這個法律案根據憲法權力分立的原則立法是立法院的憲政權利這你應該不會反對吧"},{"start":471.603,"end":491.218,"text":"這當然是嘛對不對如果立法院我們當然要徵詢行政機關的意見大家要經過一個完整的討論程序這個大家都不反對這個事情對不對但是問題是如果我們都經歷了這樣完整程序完備之後然後你都還沒有辦法掛保證說這樣子的一個對於老農是好的的法案你可以順利執行的話那有沒有違反權力分立的概念"},{"start":492.685,"end":518.197,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說如果今天在農民津貼委員過去老農津貼在OK的但是你說提高到多少錢老農津貼過去在增加的過程之中農業部也好或是過去的農委會曾經都提過不同的意見但只要在立法院經過了完整的三讀程序他就會執行你可以比照這樣子的精神嗎你沒看到在委員會討論的時候是大家都有那個共識的"},{"start":520.769,"end":536.356,"text":"什麼討論的什麼公共立法院我講的是立法院的程序決定嘛你該走完該走行政程序相對的立法院的法律案裡面你可以要求提高但是你不能說要提高到多少錢因為講到經費就牽扯到我們行政權必須要去編這相關的預算這個才是重點"},{"start":538.717,"end":553.616,"text":"反正所以今天花了這麼長的時間你回答的時候你也沒有辦法保證你一定會執行就對了我們簡單一點我告訴你我們現在目前的一個共識是朝這個方向在走那至於說法案提出來以後我們會再跟我委員會溝通嘛朝這個共識去走哪一個共識"},{"start":554.477,"end":581.976,"text":"就是額度提高我現在不同的政黨版本就有不同的共識啊額度會提高 提高多少提高是共識但是最後大家會有一共識沒有說誰說了算我們是以農業部的立場我們會盡量跟委員說明提高一定的金額是大家都可以接受的這是我們的目標嘛我是很擔心這個案子到最後走完了所有的程序三讀通過之後又來一個不附屬不執行我告訴你我更擔心的是總預算不執行的話我們審這個案子是一點意義都沒有"},{"start":582.276,"end":598.894,"text":"如果這些僵局沒有辦法解決的話總預算怎麼會有好結果呢好啦 這樣講下去也沒有變啦總預算是牽扯到所有的農民的基礎設施的建設喔你辛苦了啦但是如果你們的心態沒有做任何的調整的話朝野的僵局也絕對不會解開啦我的心態非常正確喔我就希望說預算趕快審有問題我們趕快執行"}]}},{"id":"166672","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166672","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60370b6ec9ac3287fe8f4e93bf07b6087f1e7720c7178afcf33af37138b611437b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"14:00:52 - 14:10:55","影片長度":"00:10:03","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T14:00:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T14:10:55+08:00","duration":603,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.6759687500000005,"end":7.388468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.287218750000001,"end":8.114093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.36221875,"end":26.828468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.098468750000002,"end":31.941593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.27909375,"end":34.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.94534375,"end":46.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.48409375,"end":43.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.00721875,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.213468750000004,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.609718750000006,"end":49.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.11409375,"end":62.502218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.59909375,"end":63.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.61596875,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.70034375,"end":71.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.04096875,"end":71.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.32784375,"end":77.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.81221875,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.24659375,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.97221875000001,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.70346875,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.62659375000001,"end":108.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.78596875000001,"end":111.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.97471875000001,"end":141.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.38346875,"end":120.72096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.18909375000001,"end":126.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.73971875,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.54971875,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.08471875,"end":145.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.19846875000002,"end":174.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.26096875000002,"end":148.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.02034375000002,"end":149.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.31096875,"end":152.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.41159375,"end":156.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.31846875000002,"end":158.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.14846875,"end":166.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.78034375000001,"end":228.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.07471875000002,"end":179.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.59596875000003,"end":192.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.69221875000002,"end":197.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.97409375,"end":234.17159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.20534375000003,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.94284375,"end":242.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.06471875000003,"end":278.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.54409375000003,"end":254.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.80659375,"end":275.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.80596875000003,"end":282.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.78471875,"end":280.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.91096875,"end":282.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.73784375,"end":282.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.78846875,"end":285.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.48034375000003,"end":285.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.48846875000004,"end":331.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.4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是不是請這個農業部 陳部長請部長喂吼柏中吼 今天柯克倫這個老農津貼的暫行條例怎麼這樣 上午這樣聽起來您對暫行這兩天拿掉看起來農業部是認為是支持的這樣嗎對 如果說在法制上面如果沒有什麼特別問題然後條文不需要重新"},{"start":32.395,"end":52.324,"text":"重寫的話那相對的單純我想整個大概只有條文名稱戰刑事實上條文的架構本身基本上都很完整所以只是這個戰刑這兩字的移動因為已經一直持續一直持續在政策一直持續在走的事實上這樣的一個老農津貼大概就是說對農民的照顧他未來"},{"start":53.324,"end":77.794,"text":"除非到了這個農民的一個退休儲金這一個制度者的更完善了不然老農今天的制度我想是會一直持續下去的這是沒有問題的吧對 因為戰刑有時候我也聽到很多農民講說這個戰刑這兩個字會讓人家覺得說隨時都有可能拿掉啦所以這個部分從這個角度來考量的話我是覺得如果在法制上沒問題的話我是支持把它拿掉就打退掉啦"},{"start":78.394,"end":97.116,"text":"再來就是這個勞動基金協會討論這個金額啦事實上我自己就有提案啦我提案是調高到一萬兩千塊啦那部長如果你可以你們現在有辦法稍微試算一下嗎如果是調高到一萬塊的話大概會增加多少"},{"start":97.757,"end":114.815,"text":"如果是調高到一萬塊的話要增加一百二一 將近一百二十億一百二十億對那如果是一萬兩千塊 如果一萬二的話要增加大概就是兩百五十億喔兩百四十七啦兩百四十七億 簡單的講每提高一千塊的話一年要增加大概六十三點五億啦"},{"start":116.696,"end":127.9,"text":"對 可是這中間事實上我們等一下又要討論排富條款嘛如果排富的門檻適度的爬半塊那金額也會再拉上去啦所以可以想像的就是說要到一萬塊要一百二十億要到一萬二十億就要兩百多億的預算啦我們很期待說可以這樣一個月讓他到一萬二十億啦我是有看過國民黨"},{"start":142.194,"end":160.849,"text":"花要15000 這樣15000可能要500億喔437億所以我剛才講說說我們都同意額度提高但是在額度的提高的設計上應該去考慮到我們的財政的支出當然一旦去看農業部喔我們農業部本身大概1692億今年來講1682億其中有800億是醫法律醫務支出的喔"},{"start":166.353,"end":180.889,"text":"如果800億再加上這些錢的話那相對的會排擠掉我們農業部的一個本預算的部分啦所以我們會考慮到那當然這中間的一個很重要關鍵的其實是這個總預算嘛那總預算的部分"},{"start":181.61,"end":209.617,"text":"事實上我覺得在這個議題上像剛才謝玉鳳在講我們也覺得要鼓勵他事實上我們民進黨我們有提出行政院有提出這個財化法的再修那這個再修基本上對於農業線才是有利的一個方向他把所謂農民的產值納入所謂人口的指標然後把農地的價值用加權的方式讓土地的價值要在農地上面再做加值"},{"start":210.357,"end":230.555,"text":"所以這個才化法 我覺得明明是對農業縣更好的啊所以我覺得現在在討論老農津貼 然後就要討論到接下來明年的總預算 到底我要多少錢可以來增加我們的老農津貼對農民的照顧 那這中間才化法為什麼國民黨 農業縣的 國民黨我看"},{"start":234.618,"end":253.418,"text":"早上也有很多人都來講這個議題啊你都有跟他說事實上我們得出一種預算嗎我都有說啦 我覺得現在預算有賺到就要集起來大家都希望趕快實施但是趕快實施的一個前提要有經費嘛那有經費的話預算一定要審完以後我們才能夠選相關的程序去請證預算嘛"},{"start":254.439,"end":277.226,"text":"這個東西並沒有在我們年度預算的編列所以我們會向行政院請證但是如果總預算不過的話很多行政院本身的災害準備金額二倍金額什麼都不能動包括新增的計畫因為老同經濟是延續的但是延續經費的部分如果有新增經費的部分那那個經費是不能動的所以就算我通過了以後我還是只能領8110"},{"start":278.966,"end":298.411,"text":"沒有錯嘛 那就是延續 新增的部分就沒辦法縱使我們修法過了還是沒有辦法所以我們才一直期待就是說所以這終於省下要緊啦所以我們在這裡就是說 國民黨既然他對老榮今天這個議題上他也要 事實上他也某些程度也有呼應我們 我們說 至少一萬口給他"},{"start":299.891,"end":326.378,"text":"這就要增加綜藝省嘛所以國民黨我們就要告訴大家就不要六月掛彩給五星嘛既然有要支持農業要支持農民擴大對農民的照顧綜藝省給然後金額來提高像我的提案是寫到的一萬二這需要兩百五十億的一個支出那當然這對部長來說你們好好斟酌一下可是關鍵點總預算"},{"start":328.879,"end":347.489,"text":"請國民黨的農業縣立委大家一起來正式對 我也跟委員報告如果總議院不過的話其實審這個法案審過根本審不過其實意義就不大了意義不大啦 會變這樣啦好 再來就是我事實上早上很多人都在講啦這一個排富的部分部長我還是呼籲啦我們現在排富的門檻"},{"start":348.59,"end":365.463,"text":"除了做所得 然後土地跟房屋的價值然後土地房屋價值中可以來扣除一個叫做唯一自住那唯一自住的扣除大概目前規定是400萬那我要跟部長講啦 事實上你來 你可以想像啦這個農民 他就住這間房子"},{"start":367.785,"end":373.39,"text":"這間房子的價值可能會隨著說旁邊開樓 我這間房子旁邊有開樓或是說旁邊有什麼樣的發電我這間房子的價值就要增加去房子的價值增加 他的金錢就沒了"},{"start":383.219,"end":400.086,"text":"對他而言 他為了要繼續領津貼 我一定要賣房子或是說不然這間房子多貴給小朋友貴給小朋友又會造成有時候還是會產生新的社會問題啊如果孩子把房子賣掉了這些老人家說 為了這間房子我只要賺一間房子就沒辦法大了我賺大的地方就沒了"},{"start":402.967,"end":425.201,"text":"我覺得我們既然這個今天是站在照顧農民的一個立場齁我認為啦這個在討論牌幅的時候就把唯一自住的房子齁不要說扣除了扣多少啦唯一自住的房子就都不要去計算了啦齁阿剩下的部分再看這個牌幅要拉到多高齁阿不就是唯一自住的我們就把它排除這樣好不好"},{"start":427.014,"end":443.109,"text":"我有一件報告我剛才在說就是說我們農民一輩子拼命去買一間房子對不對而且是自住的部分然後他的增值也不是他想要增值的是因為其他的因素的造成他也不會去賣的時候不要因為為了領農農津貼然後因為"},{"start":445.771,"end":464.974,"text":"不是他所能控制的因素而造成所以我們也非常嚴肅的去考慮將這個唯一自住的這些房屋的扣除額用另外一個方式來處理但是詳細的情形我必須等到院版通過以後好 那就期待過保定至少在院版在溝通的時候"},{"start":465.574,"end":484.078,"text":"我會願滿出來以後多站在支持的一個立場去跟院方來做一個溝通特別是我剛才講的我覺得我們排富已經對農民想得非常周全當然還有檢討的空間不過我們提出來以後應該會讓委員相對滿意我們也會讓委員也會跟委員溝通我們的當初的設計而且我們設計是有我們的依據好那我再講一個議題就好就是說"},{"start":494.64,"end":502.128,"text":"現在我們那個雜糧區有在跟我反映今年的這個硬質玉米因為主要為丹納斯風災料就是0728料"},{"start":505.302,"end":532.117,"text":"料比較開始進油米啦阿做油米整個料 哇都沒好一滴好就沒了 真厲害所以你來看喔我有一個統計數據以今年的降雨量跟跟去年的降雨量你看90 11來說去到去年的時候可能都每個月可能都還有一點點的降雨量大概說30厘米啦 或20厘米啦今年從11 12月"},{"start":536.105,"end":563.645,"text":"10月是零 3月是3厘米 12月是2厘米所以降雨量非常的少因為降雨量少的關係就影響到了硬質玉米的一個發展所以今年硬質玉米收成非常的差看起來連一半都沒有所以部長是不是可以先所以我先跟你反映這個狀況可能部長有時間還是農糧署這邊可以抱一下工來產區來看一下今年硬質玉米的收成狀況是確實是不好"},{"start":564.065,"end":588.285,"text":"那這部分是不是也請農業部來給我們家的農民來倒三缸的我想我在立法院如果沒有特別的一個專案報告我也很希望到產區去看這第一個第二個部分就是說玉米的部分它不能完全看雨量因為它有灌排系統所以我們要去了解它當地的灌排系統是不是沒問題如果當地有灌排系統那變成說你不灌對啦 我就灌給他那看要怎麼處理"},{"start":590.948,"end":597.019,"text":"會公開反映的大概就是沒有水源我們會去看 好不好我們會去了解好 那就請部長再關心我們一下好 謝謝好 謝謝蔡委員 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"166671","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166671","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d604e2c6c8ffcb27f958f4e93bf07b6087f1e7720c7178afcf37bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:49:23 - 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Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T13:49:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T14:00:49+08:00","duration":686,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.82284375,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.164093750000003,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.48409375,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.074718750000002,"end":35.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.81971875,"end":29.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.05596875,"end":29.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.17409375,"end":29.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.29534375,"end":44.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.525968750000004,"end":56.460968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.16971875,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.97034375000001,"end":146.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.80971875,"end":191.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.55096875,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.52409375000002,"end":196.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.70909375000002,"end":199.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.91534375,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.79659375,"end":218.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.81346875000003,"end":204.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.35221875000002,"end":212.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.11909375000002,"end":219.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.11909375000002,"end":223.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.67534375000002,"end":224.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.85659375,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.22346875000002,"end":228.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.61971875,"end":236.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.31159375000001,"end":229.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.28596875000002,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.64409375000002,"end":238.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.58846875,"end":245.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.14034375000003,"end":245.17409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.17409375000003,"end":245.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.19096875000002,"end":251.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.72159375,"end":254.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.18971875000003,"end":258.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.70784375,"end":259.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.17596875000004,"end":263.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.39909375,"end":263.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.77034375,"end":265.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.06971875,"end":265.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.37346875000003,"end":273.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.82784375,"end":280.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.36721875,"end":278.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.68346875000003,"end":294.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.89409375,"end":282.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.49971875,"end":300.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.92909375,"end":301.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.02596875,"end":304.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.04284375000003,"end":302.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.64596875,"end":306.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.24471875,"end":306.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.91971875,"end":373.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.08159375,"end":324.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.58221875000004,"e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領取老農津貼的平均餘命是82.7他比全國的80點多還高好 那我想分母不一樣一個是全體的原住民我想那個部分也麻煩部長把你們參考依據的那個好 我再把我們的數據再提供給委員但因為我這邊的這個數據也提供給你們參考原住民檢疫生意表"},{"start":598.798,"end":619.221,"text":"生命表的這個提要分析那因為就是說我們就是原住民跟全國平均的全國國民的這個平均餘命的差距是成這個縮小的趨勢所以就他們就是會覺得說不同意來修改這個原住民老人福利的年齡規定"},{"start":620.162,"end":646.446,"text":"但是我們給部長看這個圖因為這是上個月內政部公佈的原住民檢疫生命表分析那原住民的這個跟這個全體國民平均餘命縮小趨勢因為在這三年就已經存在了那為什麼這三年原住民的平均餘命跟全體國民的這個差距是拉大的因為我也不太清楚你們的那個資料到底是幾年到幾年"},{"start":646.846,"end":656.962,"text":"我想這個背後其實應該都有一些複雜的原因需要再去探究所以這個部分我也希望說你們也不要一下子就完全"},{"start":657.802,"end":684.671,"text":"去打翻我們的這些 我也非常謝謝委員對原住民朋友的這些考慮那我想後續我們會提供一些數據給委員我提到也不是說這55歲就永遠55歲我們也是按照這個狀況來調整然後每5年依這個狀況來調整一次年齡的規定逐步調高65這樣子好 謝謝好 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遺失度確定繼續進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":2544.617,"end":2563.446,"text":"继续审查委员郭玉琴等17人 委员黄建豪等16人分别拟居住宅法第4条条文修正草案委员徐巧心等20人拟居住宅法第23条条文修正草案委员林黛花等17人拟居住宅法第25条条文修正草案委员赖世宝等17人拟居住宅法第15条及第23条条文修正草案"},{"start":2563.866,"end":2585.2,"text":"委員牛許廷等16人女居住宅法第10條及第57條之一條文修正草案委員翁曉琳等16人女居住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員李燕秀等17人女居住宅法第15條及第23條條文修正草案委員羅志強等16人女居住宅法第25條條文修正草案委員台灣民眾黨黨團女居住宅法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2585.62,"end":2606.5,"text":"委員蘇巧慧等17人離居住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員牛許廷等17人離居住宅法增訂第21條之1條文修正草案委員林思明等21人離居住宅法部分條文修正草案委員李昆城等24人離居住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員徐欣盈等26人離居住宅法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2607.18,"end":2622.374,"text":"委員馬文君等19人 擬居住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員高金素梅等27人 擬居住宅法部分條文修正草案委員鄭天才等18人 擬居住宅法第2條條文修正草案委員吳佩義等17人 擬居住宅法第22條及第23條條文修正草案"},{"start":2623.115,"end":2651.301,"text":"委員林倩琦等23人女居住宅法部分條文修正查案委員王紅薇等20人委員陳素月等17人委員陳金輝等18人分別女居住宅法第4條條文修正查案委員徐宇甄等20人委員范雲等17人委員林月琴等19人分別女居住宅法部分條文修正查案委員楊耀等22人女居住宅法第25條條文修正查案委員羅廷偉等17人女居住宅法第4條第15條及第23條條文修正查案"},{"start":2651.801,"end":2668.239,"text":"委員王美惠等17人委員邱正軍等19人分別擬具住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員蘇巧惠等17人擬具住宅法部分條文修正草案委員羅明釵等16人擬具住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員李博義等16人擬具住宅法增訂第4條之1條文草案"},{"start":2668.699,"end":2693.579,"text":"委員王玉敏等17人擬拒住宅法第4條第19條及第20條條文修正草案委員楊瓊英等21人委員游浩等17人分別擬拒住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員羅志強等16人擬拒住宅法第40條及第43條條文修正草案委員葉元芝等19人委員蘇清泉等18人委員許智傑等42人分別擬拒住宅法第4條條文修正草案"},{"start":2694.299,"end":2707.925,"text":"審查委員黃傑等19人擬居住宅法部分條文修正查案委員何欣淳等19人擬居住宅法第4條條文修正查案委員盧憲一等16人擬居住宅法第4條第9條及第39條條文修正查案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2711.031,"end":2735.794,"text":"討論事項之第一案至第40案 業經本會於114年8月14日第11屆第三會期第33次全體委員會會議決議暫行保留條文及討論事項其餘個案均另定期繼續審查從此本次會議繼續進行審查現在介紹在場的委員及列席的官員"},{"start":2738.949,"end":2764.17,"text":"首先介紹我們網美會召委黃婕委員蘇喬惠委員李柏毅委員牛許廷委員張志倫委員徐宇貞委員"},{"start":2769.244,"end":2794.21,"text":"現在介紹我們列席的官員有內政部長劉時芳地政司林家政司長國土管理署吳興修副司長民主委員會公共建設處周錫衛副處長保護部李子綺檢察官"},{"start":2797.939,"end":2821.153,"text":"財政部國有財產署張翠芳副署長副稅署倪立新副署長教育部高等教育師吳志偉專門委員衛生福利部社會救助及社公司林春彥檢認視察"},{"start":2825.046,"end":2843.891,"text":"社會及家庭署莊金珠代理處長就本日議程新增之審查法案請提案委員說明提案要旨我們請黃婕委員提案說明"},{"start":2852.438,"end":2879.942,"text":"好 謝謝主席所有的同事大家早安那我說明一下我的提案的內容的幾個重點那因為居住權其實是我國憲法保障的基本人權那跟我們國人就學就業婚姻養老各方面的生活面向都有關係那但是呢現在要怎麼用合理的租金來租到一間舒適的房子我認為是現在很重要的一件事情那我自己也是長期的租屋族"},{"start":2880.402,"end":2904.749,"text":"所以我希望就我遇到跟我聽到的這些困境來提出一些修正草案第一個是租屋市場還是要努力的透明化那當然這個我也跟我們內政部溝通過很多次我希望說政府接下來還是可以定期公佈租金市場的一些物件的資訊如果沒有辦法到每一間的話至少說要有一個區間包括說哪一個區位他的"},{"start":2905.169,"end":2927.339,"text":"大概的房型的配比呀然後他的屋齡等等基本的這些資訊提供之後可以告訴大家在這樣子的物件這樣子類型這樣的區段大概他的市場的價格大概就是落在什麼地方那大家才可以知道說這樣這個租屋市場是可以有一個穩定的作用那也可以讓租屋族來進行參考"},{"start":2928.699,"end":2949.098,"text":"那第二個是設宅的需求應該要有個登記的平台這個其實我們從很久之前就已經不斷的在提了就是這個設宅需求的登記平台登記之後可以讓民眾知道說他如果重複登記的話是不是也可以優先的選擇哪裡也可以掌握說這附近設宅的需求大概就是長這樣"},{"start":2950.279,"end":2972.986,"text":"那我們政府方跟社宅的需求方大家才可以有一個媒合的共識那第三個是社宅應該要導入社福資源因為長輩跟身心障礙的家庭其實常常會受到租屋市長的歧視我這邊也說過好幾案是一些身心障礙的朋友他們要租社宅的時候或者是說他們在包租代管底下"},{"start":2974.327,"end":2993.007,"text":"即便都已經是政府保障的體制了可是他們想要進行抽籤或者是他們在這個市場上就是常常會遇到一些不平等的待遇所以要怎麼解決這些弱勢族群他們的租屋困境就是我認為這些社福資源應該要放入社宅裡面很重要接下來應該要去討論的事情"},{"start":2994.969,"end":3017.433,"text":"那第四個是社宅的租金應該要滾動的調整來符合經濟可負擔的原則那因為其實成豬社宅的人當然就是因為他有這樣的需求可能他的收入還不足以穩定生活或者是說他的財產可能現在還沒有辦法讓他可以進到買房的市場所以他才會來申請這個社宅嘛很多都是青年朋友"},{"start":3017.873,"end":3038.206,"text":"一些昏郁的年輕家庭甚至是有一些是弱勢所以這個社宅的租金就變得很重要不能說一味地導向市場的機制讓這一些他已經是有社宅需求的結果你還跟他說我要符合這個市場的機制他又沒有辦法租這個社宅了"},{"start":3038.826,"end":3058.747,"text":"那第五個是希望這個鼓勵公益的出租人降低租屋族申請租金補貼的障礙那這個也是我不斷在提醒內政部的就是我們現在希望這個租屋市場的量一定要拉起來那所以其實你會希望讓更多的公益出租人可以投入到租屋的市場裡面"},{"start":3059.367,"end":3083.221,"text":"可是現在其實這樣的意願這樣的誘因都還不足夠所以希望我們政府可以要定一些更多的讓房東可以轉型為公益出租人的誘因包括說他的免稅額度是不是可以再拉大等等那以上是我的住宅法裡面有提到的幾個部分希望等一下實質審查的時候大家可以就這些意見來凝聚共識來讓租屋的市場更好 謝謝"},{"start":3090.412,"end":3113.885,"text":"謝謝黃婕委員的說明 補充介紹到場的有麥玉成委員那列席機關準備之書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報報告委員會現在宣讀新整體案討論事項第41至43案之條文請宣讀"},{"start":3115.953,"end":3141.09,"text":"第四條委員黃婕等19人提案第1項後段修正為另提供一定比率為涉及於當地且在該地區就學就業青年婚姻家庭有居住需求者第2項第7款修正為其身心障礙者或欲有未成年身心障礙家屬者其餘同線型條文委員何新淳等19人提案第1項後段修正為另提供一定比率婚姻家庭及為涉及於當地且在該地區就學就業有居住需求者"},{"start":3141.61,"end":3167.558,"text":"增訂第二項第三項前項婚姻青年家庭只符合下列規定之一者亦欲有12歲以下子女或胎兒二具登記申請日前二年內登記結婚且婚姻關係程序中符合前項第一款規定者不受本法第25條續租期限制限制租期合計得至子女年滿18歲指依本法及主管機關公告而據稱租資格且符合前項第一款規定者適用之"},{"start":3168.078,"end":3188.699,"text":"原第二項一列第三項並著作文字修正其餘同線型條文委員盧憲一等16人提案增訂第三項主管機關及民間新辦之社會住宅與非原住民族地區新辦者至少應按該指轄市縣市轄區內原住民族地區外之原住民人口數佔全國原住民總人口數之比例分配並"},{"start":3189.62,"end":3208.372,"text":"保障原住民入住社會住宅其保障比率不低於前三年度該地區原住民人口數佔全國原住民總人口數平均比例其餘同線型條文第九條為盧憲英等16人提案第二項後段增訂中央及直轄市縣市主管機關於辦理前項補貼時若涉及原住民族申請時應會同"},{"start":3209.893,"end":3236.558,"text":"原住民族事務主管機關主動提供具文化敏感度之諮詢協助或媒合等服務以力度匯區原住民家庭取得適足居住資源資訊其餘同線性條文第15條委員黃婕等19人提案第一項末段修正為但每屋每月租金收入免稅額度應參考房屋所在地之住宅相關指標制定應參考住宅相關指標由主管機關定之其餘同線性條文"},{"start":3237.378,"end":3259.651,"text":"第18條委員黃婕等19人提案第18條中央主管機關應建制社會住宅需求登記平台供全國符合本法第25條地下資格民眾登記並定期統計分析及其需求資訊以作為社會住宅新辦戶數供給區委方形配比社會福利服務及公共設施提供之依據納入住宅計畫及財務計畫"},{"start":3261.232,"end":3278.087,"text":"第25條文黃婕等19人提案第二項中段增訂租金調整文字第三項修正為社會住宅成租者之租金計算中央主管機關依家戶所得與財產計算可負擔能力訂定分期收費原則並定期檢討之其餘同現行條文"},{"start":3278.587,"end":3298.408,"text":"第34條文黃婕等19人提案增訂第二項中央主管機關應會同社會福利目的事業主管機關針對第19條第一項第六款新辦之社會住宅採成租民間住宅並轉租及代為管理方法之成租者提供必要之社會福利服務原第二項一列第三項並著作文字修正其餘同現行條文"},{"start":3299.028,"end":3320.786,"text":"第39條委員盧憲一等16人提案第一項修正為直轄市縣市主管機關或相關目的事業主管機關為營造住宅景觀及風貌得補助或獎勵興建增建改建修建或修繕具有地方特色原住民族特色或歷史原貌之住宅新辦社會住宅時因適度徵詢符合入住資格及原住民族意願及"},{"start":3321.787,"end":3348.003,"text":"文化生活需求納入規劃設計考量並得准用相關補助或獎勵規定第二項同線型條文第47條委員黃婕等19人提案刪除第一項第一款前段之租賃與文字增訂第一項第二款二租賃住宅市場不同物件形態區位房型配比屋領之每坪坪均數與中位數價格資訊其中屬本法第9條第一項第三款第19條第一項第6款之物件應優先辦理"},{"start":3349.405,"end":3353.139,"text":"原地2、3、4款 款次第1 其餘同現行條文"},{"start":3355.58,"end":3381.701,"text":"附帶決議二社會住宅系政府保障人民居住權協助弱勢族群穩定生活之重要政策工具而未成年身心障礙者及其照顧者應償其照顧需求醫療與復健支出較高居住穩定性對其身心發展及家庭支持體系尤為關鍵現行社會住宅經濟或社會弱勢者身分認定制度對於未成年身心障礙者本人及其主要照顧者之居住需求尚有檢討與強化之空間"},{"start":3382.781,"end":3410.258,"text":"為落實身心障礙者權利保障精神並減輕其家庭之居住與照顧負擔原建請內政部緊速研議修正社會住宅相關申請規定將為成年身心障礙者納入社會住宅經濟或社會弱勢者身份適用對象以確保其享有穩定安全及適宜之居住環境必充分發揮社會住宅輔助弱勢促進居住公平之政策功能提案人委員蘇巧慧等"},{"start":3411.485,"end":3417.573,"text":"宣讀完畢我們現在進行主條協商"},{"start":3508.027,"end":3519.757,"text":"那個上一次我們是一二條都已經維持現行條文了那我們現在從上次宣告是第四條保留到這次會期來審議我們就從第四條開始來審查OK"},{"start":3528.226,"end":3543.405,"text":"主席 我們前面講到現在第四條的開始跟我們前面在八月十四委員會有審查的結論就是說出租給弱勢的比例不能夠40%沒變嘛"},{"start":3548.607,"end":3554.272,"text":"現在我就是說我們都會說青年婚姻財要設限於比例15%啦但是現在這個15%我就是說有時候我們當地的需求不一定是這樣你如果限制在15%的時候"},{"start":3573.65,"end":3577.833,"text":"是不是有一點點在當地去 現在很有氣概你這樣來35% 未來當地的SQ會不一樣對 因為每一個地方的SQ不一樣我們若是有40%在那裡"},{"start":3601.259,"end":3609.564,"text":"那時候有這個問題啦 我想問署長你們未來去了解跟有提案提供的人你們覺得現在的做法是怎樣 以上今天其他委員有 保育 保育委員"},{"start":3625.976,"end":3630.447,"text":"好 謝謝對於這個社宅的身份認定方面我對於"},{"start":3632.657,"end":3656.377,"text":"欲有未成年身心障礙者一人以上我是支持但是我對於我們接下來的婚育宅其實我也認為必須要有一定比例來鼓勵現在少子化來解決現在少子化的這些問題確實住宅也是造成少子化很重要的因素之一"},{"start":3657.357,"end":3673.741,"text":"另外我有提出四之一條的這個甄列再次說明一下在1960年代在左營的杯仔頭農場也就是蓮池潭旁邊它就有一些只有取得建物卻沒有土地的問題另外"},{"start":3675.882,"end":3700.751,"text":"在許多眷村改建的地方也有這個問題還有中油宿舍區也就是在高雄煉油廠區旁邊也有一大群中油宿舍牢宅的問題這些都是沒有土地而只有建物那我希望如果未來在進行督耕的時候或者是這裡有蓋一定的社宅的時候我們可以入法沒有辦法獲得"},{"start":3705.492,"end":3729.837,"text":"把沒有辦法獲得因為政策變遷的因素導致原規劃補償安置不可能實現那主管機關得提供社會租財供其入住而且我們加了一點就是說如果因為這個獲得核定者他入住的資格不得轉讓繼承那也希望各位委員會各位同仁可以討論支持謝謝"},{"start":3734.012,"end":3761.494,"text":"謝謝李博弈委員那接下來請黃婕委員發言對 現在第四條那因為這一條其實很多委員都有版本啦所以我是希望我們等一下針對這個比例確實要有一個精確的數字來討論那裡面包括多少比例是要有給這個婚育家庭的那在我的版本裡面我也是覺得一定要放入婚育家庭因為其實婚育家庭會是社宅非常主要要支持的對象"},{"start":3762.014,"end":3788.288,"text":"那這個對很多就是新手爸媽來說他們剛好經濟上要打拼然後薪資也都還在努力的階段那現在就必須要承擔這個育兒的家庭重擔所以上有老下有小啦所以我覺得這個時候把這個婚姻家庭放入是非常重要的但是比例我覺得大家可以有一個討論的共識到底什麼樣比例或是可以談心一點因為各縣市可能需求不一樣"},{"start":3788.908,"end":3813.923,"text":"那大家 我是希望大家可以有一個共識但是一定要有婚育宅這樣的文字好 謝謝接下來請舒喬委員發言好 一樣就像大家都聚焦在這兩條當中那我先講我第四條的部分的話我再次的提到我這裡的話一樣是對於社會住宅經濟及社會弱勢戶的認定希望是能夠更全面"},{"start":3814.583,"end":3819.267,"text":"所以呢我們其實在6月19日主條審查的時候針對這個第4條就已經有跟內政部交換意見那吳署長其實你上次也承諾會回去將未成年身心障礙者納入所以等一下麻煩回答一下就是說那研究的結果如何"},{"start":3831.798,"end":3850.45,"text":"那在這裡的話我們還是要強調家長要養育未成年的身心障礙者所付出的時間成本 財力 勞 成本和心力都比正常家庭高上許多所以如果未成年的身心障礙者沒有被列入我覺得是非常非常可惜的"},{"start":3851.05,"end":3867.239,"text":"那所以這邊 雖然內政部這邊是已經有表示過一次說其實這不需要修法 韓市級可以處理所以我們也因此提了一個附帶決議不過我還是就是梧桐剛剛所說的我希望等一下吳署長這邊透過這個我們在討論的過程正式留下會議記錄 所以還是請您解釋但我的附帶決議也已經先提出了 這是第一個部分"},{"start":3877.165,"end":3895.005,"text":"第二部分大家剛剛討論了非常多的婚育宅的部分我也是非常支持也是堅持婚育宅應該還不但要納入而且是應該要能夠提升但至於怎麼個彈性調整法還有提升比例多少我想大家都已經表示很多意見我們就不再贅述但等一下希望可以做充分的討論"},{"start":3897.274,"end":3917.741,"text":"沒關係 待會兒我們先請徐政委發言謝謝主席其實針對第四條的修正因為我們都知道在114年房租的指數已經是109.67%已經卸下歷史新高所以上次我們在討論的時候是希望要至少提供40%以上的比例出租給經濟或社會弱勢"},{"start":3919.742,"end":3929.587,"text":"可是事實上這40%事實上還是稍嫌少了一點所以本期還是希望說是不是能夠提高到50%那當時內政部是有提到說把這個弱勢宅比例從40%提到50%會被標籤化但是我想如果說難道40%的時候就不會被標籤化嗎所以我想應該是不會有這樣的一個問題"},{"start":3943.394,"end":3960.889,"text":"那當然我們在上一次的這個修正的條文裡面就有希望能夠加入青年婚育宅那青年婚育宅的部分我想也是現在對於現在少子化很多的年輕人不婚不生的原因就是因為他們很怕就是結了婚之後要生小孩他們根本養不起"},{"start":3961.79,"end":3972.955,"text":"所以希望就是如果可以有青年婚姻宅讓他們再有一個安定的環境那他們可能就會有想要生子的一個這樣子的一個動機那也可以提升我們這個少子化的一個狀況的一個減免"},{"start":3977.777,"end":3994.146,"text":"那當然在這邊也希望說我們今天的這個針對住宅法第四條大家也能夠讓大家感受到就是如果大家能夠在這樣的一個環境中讓這個育兒家庭在社會制度中可以感受到國家的支持 謝謝好 那個黃婕穩要補充說明"},{"start":4000.026,"end":4018.383,"text":"好 不好意思我補充一下剛剛提到的這個未成年身心障礙家屬的部分我也有放在裡面那我也覺得這個是之前漏掉的應該要被補足那尤其是現在租屋市場我有強調說其實租屋市場對身障的家庭其實很不友善這個我自己就接過很多個案"},{"start":4019.144,"end":4034.792,"text":"他們真的就是會遇到一些阻礙包括說沒有無障礙設施然後包括說房東看到可能是身心障礙的家庭他們出租的意願就降低了這是真的所以我希望說這個未成年身心障礙家屬的這個條款一定要放進去謝謝"},{"start":4038.024,"end":4053.01,"text":"那個請 好 接下來請你去提委員發言謝謝 這個當初國民黨這邊大部分的委員提案都是希望說育有未成年子女的家庭可以優先入住社宅嘛基本上是第四條的修正方向"},{"start":4053.91,"end":4080.99,"text":"我們上次上個會議討論的時候後來內政部內部溝通的時候有講希望是放寬變成只要有結婚就可以優先入住社宅我想這樣的大方向大家都不會反對但是比例上的問題我是覺得要把話說清楚因為本來我們自己提案的版本像黃建豪委員提案的版本有未成年之女有50%就是一個非常大的優惠程度但內政部有講說這實際上有的不見得會有這麼多可能會造成社宅空置的狀況"},{"start":4081.75,"end":4110.917,"text":"但你現在既然放寬成變成結婚就變成這個範圍的人變得更多了所以比例上我希望有一個明確的數字而且不要太低我們初步討論我是按照你們自己青年婚育租屋協助因為今年年初你們就有做不是年初就今年下半年的時候你們就有做政策宣示就是說要做婚育宅而且你們自己講說要留20%20%做婚育宅既然政府已經做了這樣的明確宣示我們就是乾脆把20%婚育宅寫進法條看一看大家的意見好不好"},{"start":4112.276,"end":4114.718,"text":"好 接下來我們請徐姓委員發言好 謝謝本席也有針對第四條做修正那我們看到了內政部的回應內政部擔心放寬欲有一名未成年子女會排擠弱勢戶"},{"start":4134.853,"end":4151.302,"text":"但是本席要在这里特别强调根据统计我国只生育一胎的比率已经逐年提升到53.43%如果政府不能在租屋市场提供实质的诱因年轻家庭更不敢生育"},{"start":4152.122,"end":4180.878,"text":"那社会住宅呢不仅应该是救济更应该是支持育儿的基石所以行政院既然推动少子化的一个应对政策那法律的未接的修正更要能够给予民众长期的心理安定感所以希望因应少子化将社会住宅优先户的资格由育有未成年子女二人以上放宽为一人以上以上谢谢"},{"start":4181.938,"end":4183.559,"text":"接著請麥玉珍委員發言好謝謝主席我們針對大家都有講過這條我們不限不跟內政部的糾纏這個比例願意維持就是住宅至少40%提供給弱勢不變但是先把"},{"start":4203.146,"end":4221.621,"text":"低收入戶生性障礙者基本保障守住但是要補上制度的切口在一般戶60%中明確保留一定的比例給育兒家庭不限小孩人數"},{"start":4223.542,"end":4236.26,"text":"回應中央的推動就是婚姻仔的政策方向讓小孩家庭有小孩的家庭真正的租得起房租我們是這樣子的一個目標以上謝謝謝謝接下來請張宏路委員發言"},{"start":4246.774,"end":4257.142,"text":"這個大家的意見什麼的我覺得都不錯然後也有很多都可以列入參考但其實我們也要去仔細想了一下"},{"start":4259.404,"end":4287.426,"text":"比如说有的人有提案要育有未成年之女两人以上有的比如说65岁以上老人等等的这些我只想请问国土署如果我们照这个法令都通过他们办不办得到你的社会在你有这么多吗我们如果有的还把比例给放进去如果你们做不到你们就违法了"},{"start":4288.8,"end":4317.194,"text":"那我觉得我们这些都应该要被照顾很多应该被照顾那如果你入法的比例把它入法我很担心这个是做不到你做不到反而会造成很多的困扰还是说国土署他们可以有自己的我们的施行办法或什么的我们写在那边我们要达到的目标是什么什么的这个我觉得大家可以要考虑一下"},{"start":4321.759,"end":4322.891,"text":"接著我們請張志榮發言"},{"start":4324.949,"end":4352.22,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位觀言長那我覺得這個住宅法第4條的修正非常重要就是在於有涉宅的這個入住部分到底未來入住的這個人他的身分到底是一般戶還是弱勢戶那現在就現行的法條來講我們當然希望的是說就是一般的這個人抽籤的大概是60%弱勢的大概是40%那弱勢的比例裡面當然大家有很多不同的意見"},{"start":4353.22,"end":4376.062,"text":"那在一般戶裡面我們想要增加就是有關於未成年子女他可以佔百分之有預有未成年子女可以佔15%那我想要請教這個內政部的就是說因為大家在討論這些內容的時候到底能做還是不能做就是有過去的一些例子說現在入住社宅裡面的人大概就這些裡面的比例到底是多少是不是提可以提供相關數據不然"},{"start":4377.123,"end":4396.201,"text":"只是說能做不能做那或者是說所以也給我們立法院去做參考是不是過去就是說以這些比例我們現在規定的這些符合相關規定裡面的比例大概是多少我們才知道說如果你調整哪裡哪裡可以加強哪裡不能加強我覺得這樣討論大家會比較聚焦以上謝謝"},{"start":4399.312,"end":4401.934,"text":"那個吳啟明委員 請吳局長發言好 我們部長因為目前我們的社會住宅因為都存在說很多弱勢跟我們的青少年尤其那個年輕的家庭他們要抽的比例還是過低本身是覺得說弱勢跟我們的年輕家庭是不是說這個比例可以提高"},{"start":4426.933,"end":4433.037,"text":"這可以說是落實我們社宅的推動也能夠確保我們年輕人因為我們現在的社宅是非常熱門所以在我們都會區內大家都非常希望能夠抽到所以在這部分我也要求內政部是不是可以提高這才是我能夠確保我們落實和年輕人這是本省的建議 謝謝"},{"start":4455.45,"end":4460.255,"text":"好 我們現在請內政部來同意來回覆一下 內政部署長要講什麼"},{"start":4464.656,"end":4488.053,"text":"好 感謝各位委員的建議因為其實上次大概其實有針對這個弱勢的部分大概有做說明也就是說以現在來講40%的部分其實在我們目前跟地方政府統計出來的社宅裡面它的身份比例大概大概只有大概就佔46.7%實務上是已經超過 為什麼因為它也可以抽一般戶"},{"start":4493.016,"end":4509.41,"text":"所以基本上弱勢戶他是有兩支籤他是有兩支籤所以實務上已經是46.7那我們就擔心你如果把它定50實務上應該會超過60%也就是說你的社宅基本上會變成超過60%都是弱勢家庭在居住"},{"start":4509.97,"end":4528.317,"text":"那第一個標籤化的問題以外第二個就是說一般戶的數量來抽籤的數量其實是三倍弱勢戶的三倍也就是你讓一般戶的中籤率變得非常低因為現行來講弱勢戶的中籤率已經是一般戶的2.5倍了"},{"start":4530.058,"end":4556.549,"text":"它中簽率其實已經非常高在現在數量不夠多的狀況下那可能一般戶所面臨的這個不滿可能會更高這是第一個那我們是把一般戶裡面的婚姻家庭把它抽出來去定它一個比例這也是因應少子化的現象因為根據這個行政院這個少子化的政策的規劃裡面他們的委託報告裡面"},{"start":4558.63,"end":4577.626,"text":"大概就職業環境跟居住環境是他們的兩大議題最重要的兩大課題所以我們才因應這個院的這個指示去提出這個婚育宅的部分那這個婚育宅的部分我們現在的做法是我們中央先來做一個以現有的事先來做一個示範先來提"},{"start":4580.749,"end":4598.602,"text":"但是我們在提的過程當中現在也發現一個議題就是說我們如果把它延伸到比較中南部也就是說年輕人口沒有那麼高的地方的時候那有可能這個20%會它的種籤率會高得異常也就是說當地的年輕人口或許"},{"start":4599.443,"end":4615.48,"text":"有需要的或許不到那麼高那這個因為我們的社宅是全國都有各縣市都有雖然我們也是挑比較精華的地區但是我們在很多地方蓋的戶數多相對的來講它的中間率會變得非常高所以我們在這一點也在考慮"},{"start":4616.501,"end":4637.014,"text":"城鄉之間的差距所以我們才會建議就是說我們去訂但是先不要訂太高也要考慮到一般縣市那我們講最極端的例子就是連江連江跟金門或許昆玉仔的數量可能就不是到那麼高"},{"start":4637.774,"end":4655.336,"text":"那這就是我們要很慎重去考慮的因為他們很多是工作人口他不一定是戶籍那所以這個部分來講對他們來講壓力是就是說對其他一般戶壓力會很大所以我們也會建議是這樣的一個方式那育有未成年子女是這樣我們上次的建議是說"},{"start":4656.497,"end":4670.815,"text":"因為我們現在的社宅都是通用設計也就是它基本上是符合無障礙的設計但是育有未成年子女他在室內他很可能要再增加一些設施那我們現在分兩個部分第一個是我們在包租代管裡面"},{"start":4671.596,"end":4693.844,"text":"我們有給房東跟房客所以現在房東跟房客都會給他一些補助去改善他的室內環境去讓他能夠盡量去符合無障礙的一個條件第二個在社宅的興建的部分我們是去修改我們在社宅的設計如果到時候這個家庭是有育有未成年子女的"},{"start":4694.364,"end":4715.013,"text":"那相關的室內的一個無障礙的設計必須要再強化的部分那這個部分就是我們會跟就是跟衛福部再去檢討我們再去增加哪些項目這樣的話不用去特地去修改規定而是在我們的社宅的設計跟裝修上我們去增加這些項目讓它去符合這個育兒會成年子女的家庭環境"},{"start":4716.133,"end":4742.598,"text":"去做所以我才特別再去講就是說這樣的一個部分不一定去要經過修法但是透過設宅的一個設計的要求去做那我們去以我們的之前的林口設宅大致上都是遵照這個方式就是說入住的家庭你有特殊的需求都可以先來反映那我們會在室內的裝修上給予他一些比較特別的一個設計讓他能夠穩定的住在裡面我想這是我們在"},{"start":4744.619,"end":4761.788,"text":"這個育兒會成年子女的部分的這個設計那婚育宅的部分的確是當時的政策是婚或育因為我們的確去研就依照這個依照我們社宅的做了住戶調查還有這一個少子化的調查裡面大概都證明其實兩個還是有一些正相關"},{"start":4762.848,"end":4779.832,"text":"那所以其實關鍵是當時是為了鼓勵少子化才會去鼓勵解決少子化的政策那所以我們才會去提出來是婚禍育那就希望能夠更廣為吸納這一些年輕人最終是鼓勵他們來生育做以上的補充 謝謝那個李博議員市長那個我四字一條新政那個你說明一下"},{"start":4795.256,"end":4812.154,"text":"再說明一下這條其實是給地方政府它有相關的很多這些卡在這邊沒有辦法推行的這些都更的政策給地方政府一定的武器還是部長要說因為我說明一下好了其實是我們之前的狀況是這樣就是說"},{"start":4813.715,"end":4838.523,"text":"我們現在不管是都更或是屈增的計畫照土增條例的規定或照都更現行的計畫審查都會有所謂的現住戶的一個安置計畫都會有現住戶的安置計畫那這個安置計畫裡面會比較多元包含有租金補貼也包含可以優先吸納介紹到包租貸款的家庭那涉財的部分當時大家討論是不敢是因為往往時間對不起來"},{"start":4840.684,"end":4855.964,"text":"往往時間是對不起來那對於社宅現在數量相對少的狀態下又要去保留的話其實他會有一定的困難但是如果說就租金補貼租金補貼正常來講土增條例他用的是自己的開發經費開發計畫的經費"},{"start":4858.727,"end":4881.681,"text":"都更安置計畫裡面用的是開發計畫自己本身要去提供因為他有一個安置的一個義務他必須有安置的一個義務所以這兩點我覺得在現行的計畫裡面都已經有執行了那所以比較不適宜還要另外動用社會的資源再去協助他當時我想今天不管在土增或都更其實大家都是同樣的概念"},{"start":4882.782,"end":4906.25,"text":"用這樣的方式那至於有沒有其他的專案的可侵我們是認為你除非是要符合社宅本身的資格社宅本身的資格也就是它的承租戶還是要一具有一定的資格那這樣會比較妥適要不然可能會擔心把整個社宅的政策又重新做了一個不同的定義是這樣子市長你講的我聽得懂啦但是在實務上的操作"},{"start":4907.455,"end":4919.061,"text":"它不會是這一個區塊這個部長會最了解比如說蓮池潭畔離我們現在的崇石安居它大概離一公里那它是不是同一個都更它不是同一個都更"},{"start":4919.98,"end":4946.812,"text":"但是你要處理地方政府要處理臨時談判他的空間就在重慈安居啊那你沒有先有這個武器給地方政府的話我們這個農場應該是永遠無法解決當你端出來說這個我們未來會有租金補貼這些人一定跟你抗爭嘛所以這個地方永遠都沒有辦法解決所以是不是我們再先把它擱置然後我們在後續再做一些比較"},{"start":4947.432,"end":4953.701,"text":"跟地方讓地方政府有機會來解決這一些都更的問題的這個方案出來謝謝這樣緊張站會員補充"},{"start":4964.578,"end":4981.256,"text":"剛剛署長講的那些就是我剛剛所說的問題但是我們今天要來修法但署長你剛剛所說的問題我們都知道但那麼多立委在這邊那你們的具體解決方法"},{"start":4981.936,"end":5002.531,"text":"就像我剛說的嘛如果不入法 你們如何去解決那你可能這個部分要跟所有委員說一下這個也要說服大家 對不對不然你講一講如果你講一講那現在大家又要堅持入法這一個一直在循環我覺得就一直在這邊打轉蘇強衛委員"},{"start":5008.866,"end":5023.344,"text":"署長不好意思我剛剛不曉得是不是有聽漏掉還是麻煩你再稍微解釋因為我們要求的我要求的是希望這個有未成年身心障礙者子女的人等於是有兩支籤的意思"},{"start":5024.912,"end":5043.6,"text":"等於是我們過去沒有把這個有未成年身心障礙未成年這樣的子女的人納入裡面所以我們修法要把它放進去對啊 那你現在剛剛回答的好像剛剛聽到的是室內設計在入住之前可以做什麼做什麼你本來是跟我們說你可以用韓式就好"},{"start":5045.641,"end":5064.563,"text":"所以我們才會把它說好因為上次有跟委員大家做報告我們基本上是涵是也就是那個身心障礙者是涵欲有就是欲有未成年身心障礙者我們上現在都是已經是這樣本來就是這樣子做另外一個就是說我們有在要求在相關的設計上"},{"start":5065.584,"end":5076.49,"text":"如果你確實預有的話那你室內的裝修我也不用去修我就直接去做一些處理那這樣他不但有多的錢而且他還可以有更好的居住環境"},{"start":5077.335,"end":5105.733,"text":"好那你現在的意思是說你們本來就有這樣做可是如果你們本來就這樣做那我們為什麼會接到這麼多陳情對那所以是不是大家不夠明確的知悉還是怎麼樣所以我們才會說那好那如果不用用修法的話那是不是有一個解釋公告也讓大家安心這沒有問題對對對所以我們才說好那我們就不修法嘛但是我們也提了一個附帶決議這個我們就會到時候就發起示範給各縣市政府嘛好那這樣我們才同意嘛好那謝謝你的說明謝謝好"},{"start":5110.376,"end":5136.556,"text":"還有沒有意見請內政部長這邊統一來再回應一次謝謝各位委員對於住宅法修正大家的立場都差不多也非常敬佩我們總共提出43案以上大概99%全部是集中帶第4條也表示說各位委員都對於包括要幫助弱勢包括婚育宅包括經濟弱勢都有提供自己的看法"},{"start":5137.516,"end":5163.353,"text":"但是我想站在我們的立場上面要跟各位報告一下我剛有去查一下衛福部他們的定義裡面的經濟弱勢的人口在全台灣是2%如果是身心障礙者在全台灣是5%也就是有120萬人你如果是老年人口的話是20%有480萬人這些都要放在住宅法裡面的百分比裡面"},{"start":5164.534,"end":5178.842,"text":"那所以呢目前我們現在在處理的興建當中或是興建完成的就是社會住宅全新的社會住宅要能夠應付這麼多的這樣子的一個需求真的是杯水車薪"},{"start":5180.623,"end":5207.277,"text":"那既然是杯水車薪的時候呢在過去一段時間啊那謝謝各位委員的協助我們把這個包租代管或者是租金補貼也納入我們的這個百萬戶的租屋家庭裡面也就是說它是一個滾動的一個方式希望能夠用比較這個大家可以接受的一個的政策來處理有關住宅法的這個修正的部分而不是全部"},{"start":5208.257,"end":5229.799,"text":"把它放到所谓的这个新建或者是新兴建的社会住宅里面那所以呢在行政院所抛出来的就是青年婚育宅的租屋协助里面是有提到20%那那个20%呢我们不是只有现成的这个社会住宅而是我们把包租贷款也放进去"},{"start":5230.519,"end":5250.532,"text":"所謂的包租代管就是用現在的空餘屋經過包租代管這樣的仲介的程序之後因為我們會認為婚育宅必須要做所謂的無障礙空間這個的比例比較低所以婚育宅可能會受到年輕人或者因為他的一個地段是在比較淡黃區或者是他的生活區域裡面"},{"start":5251.833,"end":5267.515,"text":"所以申請的人會相當的多但是我們現在看出來其實還是屬於杯水車薪我昨天有去拜訪桃園市政府桃園市政府他們也會認同就是說必須要加蓋比較多的社會住宅但是畢竟速度沒有那麼快"},{"start":5268.616,"end":5290.748,"text":"那再以北三都為主的話呢目前的台北市跟新北市呢雖然仍然有社會住宅這個興建的空間但是呢需要在財務槓桿還有土地上面取得的部分呢要能夠完成這樣的程序確實是慢所以會有時間上的壓力那既然有時間上的壓力呢目前如果把所有的委員的提案"},{"start":5292.412,"end":5306.496,"text":"全部放到第四條裡面的話中央跟地方政府呢確實沒有辦法有這個能力處理這一塊那又是入法那既然入法的話就會造成困擾所以我們希望說能夠取得各位委員的這個認同"},{"start":5308.357,"end":5332.807,"text":"就是第一個維持原來的這個弱勢的比例呢就是經濟跟弱勢社會弱勢的比例是40%但是因為我們要處理就是所謂的少子化的問題的時候呢提供10%的這個婚姻家庭呢能夠給我們一點空間剛剛我有特別提到這個婚姻家庭呢並不是每個縣市平均都是一樣的我們也去查了一下"},{"start":5333.667,"end":5344.251,"text":"如果婚育家庭假設以新北市來看遇有未成年兩人以上戶數跟遇有未成年一人以上戶數的婚育家庭一差就差10萬戶那台北市差5萬戶桃園市也差5萬戶"},{"start":5349.233,"end":5365.804,"text":"台中市差5萬戶那那個高雄市也差5萬戶那其他的大概就1萬2萬之間那如果用這樣的方式的話我們可能會希望能夠稍微做一下區域性的調整也就是說如果是10%的這個出租的這個婚姻家庭的話第一個"},{"start":5368.946,"end":5391.645,"text":"能夠保留彈性讓包租代管也可以放到這一塊裡面然後這樣子對於婚姻家庭上面的尤其是他們可能是比較年輕在經濟跟社會上面的是未來大概不是弱勢但是現在是弱勢的狀況之下能夠予以協助所以我們想說修正條文可不可以就是說40%的比例給經濟跟社會弱勢不要變"},{"start":5396.188,"end":5414.423,"text":"提供至少10%比率出租與婚育家庭把它放到裡面去我們也願意每一年到立法院的內政委員會來提出就是現在社會住宅給予弱勢的比例有多高讓中央跟地方在不管是蓋"},{"start":5415.663,"end":5429.187,"text":"社會住宅或者是包租代管方面能夠趕快把這個數目字拉到我們法律的修正案裡面能夠通過的部分要不然我們真的是沒有辦法做到各位委員像我們為什麼會沒有辦法提議到說"},{"start":5432.948,"end":5456.841,"text":"委員裡面的這個好與不好確實在數目之上沒有辦法達到這樣子的標準那你入法過後你六個月裡面就要達到這個也不太可能所以看看各位委員是不是可以這樣處理那還有就是婚育家庭如果按照有些委員提到20%這是我剛所提到20%你一下子拉高的時候就會產生其他的排擠"},{"start":5457.581,"end":5463.57,"text":"我現在所說的排擠不是排擠一般一般去抽籤社會住宅的一般戶可能會排擠到弱勢戶會排擠到弱勢戶數量真的是不夠不是我們不願意數量真的不夠"},{"start":5472.964,"end":5491.669,"text":"那這個部分我們會再繼續跟尤其是以六都為主的這些城市再繼續跟他們加油包括土地的釋放財務的槓桿或是其他包租貸款業者的部分那可能我們這樣子的說法沒有辦法讓每一位委員的提案都能夠完全納進來但是也請委員能夠了解一下現在我們的狀況是這樣子"},{"start":5497.671,"end":5520.086,"text":"那再來有關剛剛那個蘇巧惠委員所提到的就是說未成年身心障礙者的部分我們也希望說第一個就是有關符合下列規定的部分呢是屬於這個身心障礙者但是蘇委員跟很多委員特別要照顧未成年身心障礙者的話我們容或用說明的方式或是有這個附帶決議的方式"},{"start":5520.566,"end":5538.059,"text":"把它放到裡面去因為身心障礙者如果要入住社會住宅或者是未來的包租代管的話他必須要更多來自衛生福利或是社會或是這個地方政府上面在無障礙空間或者是說在衛福比例上面的"},{"start":5539.019,"end":5558.047,"text":"資助方面的大的協助那這個要有更完整的條件否則就是抽籤抽到了身心障礙的人抽籤到社會住宅然後後續的衛生福利的照顧或者是社會福利的照顧沒有到位的話那不管是成年或未成年就沒有辦法達到照顧他們的一個美意"},{"start":5560.968,"end":5577.951,"text":"那這個部分是不是我們也可以用這個附帶的方式來回應剛剛那個蘇委員跟幾位委員所提到的這個部分那有關於那個弱勢的部分的認定的話那因為我們衛福部的這個同仁有在現場也許委員可以請教他們的意見以上謝謝"},{"start":5581.179,"end":5595.631,"text":"請你又去聽人發言我是覺得啦因為你們自己中央宣誓就是要20%做婚姻啦你如果只做宣誓宣傳都說20%好像很漂亮你修法的時候又說我只要死就好這很奇怪啦"},{"start":5597.952,"end":5623.442,"text":"沒有啊你就寫保留20%嘛那我的意思是說你政策宣傳你就不能這樣做嘛你如果講10%你就10%那我覺得那還我覺得還可以理解那不然這樣因為剛剛不管是部長或署長的顧慮是這樣就是說萬一有些地方比如說你剛剛講的舉例比如廉江或者是什麼地方他不見得有這麼多的需求的時候怎麼辦那不然我們這樣子啊就一樣我們寫20%保留給婚育嘛但是申請時婚育家庭數量未達時保留比率者剩餘部分不是在實現嗎"},{"start":5626.314,"end":5635.361,"text":"也就是說你申請的時候沒有滿的時候你再釋出回一般戶嘛但你這樣是不是有政策目標但是某一些層面可以這樣做處理來討論一下我覺得剛剛既然"},{"start":5642.89,"end":5656.828,"text":"應該是說其實他在一開始的時候他就有說其實等於是這些被列出來的人都這些列出來的種類啦不好意思這樣講項目反正這些身分別都會等於是有兩支籤所以"},{"start":5657.449,"end":5685.468,"text":"如果變成是我們今天把這個婚姻宅的部分比較青年婚姻宅的部分再加上去寫成至少10%的話那至少10%再加上原來他就可能抽到或者是一般一般戶裡面他也去抽的我覺得就很有可能就是其實就達到20%其實是有的而且這才比較接近20%甚至是30%因為大部分去抽一般戶的還是是這一個年紀的人對 那所以我會覺得"},{"start":5687.869,"end":5711.595,"text":"所以我才會說等於是婚育的人是有兩支籤所以在這邊有一個強制保留至少10%再加上一般戶裡面被抽到的機遇這樣就會達到政策目標的20我另外擔心他中籤率過高在中南部萬一過高的話那又是另外一個主席我可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":5714.008,"end":5727.134,"text":"麥政委 請問一下好 不好意思他可不可以坐這邊一起一起比較快的我想說他們來來去去太滿了等一下就對不對因為黃婕還有其他人等一下對啊就太滿怕沒位子坐好"},{"start":5729.909,"end":5750.802,"text":"對 好 我想說我們明確我們民眾黨這邊想要說明確保留一定的比例給育兒家庭不限小孩的人數就是也是回應剛才大家在講我們部長也有講說社會主宰 包租代管 其他我們是不是把這些不管是署長還是部長還有我們要求的"},{"start":5753.323,"end":5776.604,"text":"放在那個法條的說明這樣子的話就是15%還是10%或者還是20%就是說明他們如果達到每一個縣市的是不是這樣子的一個比例說明這樣是不是大家就會更有彈性了不是嗎對不對我們不是要定在我們的法裡面在我們的說明裡面就讓他們可以說不同的縣市"},{"start":5777.645,"end":5790.527,"text":"他們的可以到百分之幾但是我們最高的要求是這樣但是他不同的縣市有不同的做法放在我們的說明裡面這樣是不是會更清楚以上謝謝部裡面這邊有沒有要補充說明的針對剛才我提到"},{"start":5807.898,"end":5835.994,"text":"數字是多少的問題對那個跟麥委員報告一下我剛講了就10%是至少那我們每一年會有滾動式的跟大家報告就是說明年譬如說明年是12或13後年是15這樣慢慢往上增加因為你現在訂了20就表示說我們明年的下半年就開始做到20%這樣我們做不到而且呢我剛為什麼特別提到包租代管業者包租代管業者最喜歡租給婚禦宅"},{"start":5842.353,"end":5844.695,"text":"這個重點是要放在說明裡面在說明裡面寫清楚不是 但是他剛又講到有10% 15% 20%"},{"start":5850.071,"end":5867.004,"text":"說明欄導師我不會特別因為剛才署長他不是說因為不打到這樣子的話他就是內在說明其他我們是也可以內在說明如果有一些的不同縣市的生育率或者婚姻關係的比較少"},{"start":5868.945,"end":5873.126,"text":"就可以再說我們再說哪一個縣市比較少哪一個縣市比較多我們是可以在裡面說達到這樣就不用因為你們一直強調說不要列入法嘛是不是要列入我們的法後面的那個說明這樣子是不是大家會更清楚這樣子的意思你們也有彈性去作業這樣"},{"start":5890.882,"end":5919.979,"text":"不是署長我覺得會不會其實你從剛剛到現在應該是換一個說法因為你一直變成是說做不到什麼但是其實這樣聽你的話在抽絲剝繭下來其實你的話應該不是這樣我們的政策目標是婚育宅要有20%我們以20%的婚育宅為政策目標而經過這幾年的實務運行狀況就是在一般宅當中一般戶當中也有相當高比例的婚育家庭重簽率"},{"start":5920.919,"end":5938.991,"text":"所以根據過往的實務經驗之後我們現在行政院提出的條文也綜合各位委員意見就是要保留一定比例的我們行政院提出了一個綜合版本就是至少10%以上的婚育保留宅"},{"start":5939.611,"end":5963.836,"text":"因為這樣加上依過去經驗得到的一般戶的重簽率一般戶當中的婚育青年的重簽率就會達成目標20%以上啊這樣子的說法的話我們其實應該是大部分的人都可以接受因為就達到了我們大家都想要的所有裡面最後的結果這棟房子 這棟社宅裡面20%是婚育家庭嘛"},{"start":5964.816,"end":5977.036,"text":"對不對那你這樣子我們也可以跟大家講說其實我們真的很努力爭取但是因為過往的經驗實務考量和現在政策的需要說法應該是是這樣啊"},{"start":5981.158,"end":6005.373,"text":"你這樣聽起來負面的我們會覺得好像是做不到但不是其實不是 是根據那個是不是剛剛蘇小慧委員提到的就是說可能在食物上剛剛講的加上婚姻災跟一般戶的那可能剛剛講說有可能就已經達到本來你們的這個數據就20%以上那針對這個部分是不是有真正的數據可以請蘇長說明一下我們以目前統計的"},{"start":6010.307,"end":6038.498,"text":"我們以目前統計的就是說現在來講大概北桃中台北是桃園台中大概育有未成年子女就是說有婚姻家庭大概就占了四成總數應該是說他現在有可能有兩支籤的狀態下他已經占了這麼高"},{"start":6043.09,"end":6070.445,"text":"但是我剛也在說明嘛所以我才會說所以我才會說北桃中可能是北北桃中啦所以我的意思是說第一個越往南越往南其實問題會越大越往南問題越大第二個當然對他來講他一樣會保有如果我們單獨列出一個其實最好的狀況是他會有三支籤最差的狀況他也有兩支籤"},{"start":6072.339,"end":6090.009,"text":"所以我們是希望說不要因為你一旦入了法我臉直接興建的社宅通通都要單獨列通通都要單獨列所以我們才會說我們現在為什麼一邊做一邊試一邊做一邊試那為什麼先喊餓死就是我們先來測試看看現在狀況實務上的狀況可以做到什麼樣那"},{"start":6095.315,"end":6106.434,"text":"我們以那個現在裡面來講大概最明顯大概是萬華NG萬華NG的登記婚姻宅的比例就明顯低於其他的為什麼 因為那就是一個社區的關係"},{"start":6108.396,"end":6126.147,"text":"所以我可不可以再好 那我再想一下我再確認一下所有的委員不分黨派都非常關心國家少子化的問題也希望幫青年人口爭取更多的這個夢想權益所以我們都認為應該要有婚育宅好 這是我們大家共同的理想"},{"start":6126.707,"end":6151.241,"text":"可是食物上來講目前最會去抽社宅的其實就是差不多這個年紀左右的家庭也好 青年也好所以食物上有高比例的社宅地區本來就已經有四成以上的婚育家庭了那我們今天把婚育這件事情入法一是態度 二是保障萬一將來有時候食物上面沒有到10% 20%的時候我也強制你一定要"},{"start":6155.023,"end":6161.69,"text":"放進去 我保障你這是地板我們今天設一個地板我們把這件事情表明了國家的態度立法委員的態度而且有一個地板的保障但是實務上如果我們把這個地板的保障再加上第三支籤的權利放進去萬一過高的話其實你整個也會打亂的狀況"},{"start":6176.545,"end":6184.369,"text":"所以我們同意現在我們試著 我沒有代表你們同意我們試著同意行政院的這個版本變成是說至少10%因為這樣還是其實確實是已經達到政策目標20%以上也是各黨派本來在講的這個20%以上我覺得是符合每一個大家目前的狀態不曉得大家這樣解釋同不同意對啊"},{"start":6203.84,"end":6228.021,"text":"對 因為這種寫法也讓你有地區性的彈性啦政策的彈性啦那請教一下那個部長和署長就是那除了北桃中剛剛講是佔四成嘛北北桃中剛剛是說佔四成了嘛那表示如果是百分之二十大概也沒有問題嘛那如果是其他呢其他的剛剛講的對 我知道我說其他的目前大概是多少"},{"start":6230.646,"end":6247.872,"text":"因為你剛剛提到說南部因為我們一定就是全國所以我們才會建議說至少10%就在考慮因為就像我們已經蓋到連離島外島都有了所以我們也要考慮這些狀況所以你剛剛提到說南部可能比較沒辦法達成對 南部還有離島外島應該比較難對啊"},{"start":6252.965,"end":6276.116,"text":"也不能說比較沒有需求啦對所以現在有這個數據嗎南部的大概是還沒有 因為我們往南部的是明年才會開始我們大概已經從一般的人口的調查狀況就是說以老齡化的指數來講老齡化還有年輕占的比例來講你們調查的預估大概會是多少所以也不太敢確定因為為什麼 因為"},{"start":6277.516,"end":6302.667,"text":"因為我們譬如說像我們蓋到了像潮州萬丹那個人口都只有5萬那個人口都只有5萬左右那種就是很明顯是農業鄉鎮所以我才會說我們要考慮的是像這一塊那甚至到了連江連江市戶籍人口都是老人居多"},{"start":6304.608,"end":6330.547,"text":"那現有的工作人口是基本上戶口大部分都不在那裡所以才會說這個問題才值得大家去慎重所以我才會建議是說保留變成至少10%這樣會比較穩定啦台東應該也很難我們盡量加油啦所以我來講 大家保留一個機會 要祭祀十"},{"start":6333.576,"end":6349.404,"text":"而且我們台東一口氣蓋了三個一口氣蓋了三個總共五百多戶因為台東的問題又是很長那個鄉鎮又距離又很遠那個其他委員有沒有要補充意見"},{"start":6352.486,"end":6367.335,"text":"因為現在有兩個層面的問題嘛一個是有沒有因為三支籤的問題所以排擠一般戶的問題這一個然後另外一個是有些地方不見得碰得到這個標準的問題嘛那我是覺得如果你都這樣講的話"},{"start":6369.758,"end":6387.173,"text":"我們還是回到之所以要寫這個政策的初衷嘛無非就是鼓勵當初最早國民黨這邊提案的版本就是鼓勵生小孩嘛所以一開始我們只講育嘛沒有講婚嘛對啊 你現在不講婚但是你比例都很低嘛因為我還再次強調我們本來設定的比例是50%"},{"start":6388.374,"end":6415.229,"text":"是一般戶的一半要留給有小孩的人這是當初大家期望達到的政策目標那當然嘛就是這目標理想是很高的但你一下子又放寬了資格變成結婚了也可以進來不見得是保障有小孩的人然後一下子又把比例從50%一路降到10%我覺得這落差有點大要不然這樣子好了因為今天條文很多啦這條先我們消化一下好不好我們走後面的條文然後再回過頭來討論這樣好不好我覺得是這樣子啦我們思考一下"},{"start":6415.953,"end":6423.735,"text":"好啦好啦這條我們先暫時先保留我們繼續熬一個啦好啦來下一條下一條"},{"start":6428.82,"end":6432.221,"text":"我剛剛有說過我會再找地方政府跟國土署這邊再做溝通謝謝"},{"start":6451.92,"end":6480.186,"text":"那第五條所以你不會問這邊是不予增訂嘛對不對你不會問先保留先保留先保留OK好那第五條那第五條部分沒底的沒底的沒處理的沒底的沒處理的沒底的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理"},{"start":6482.645,"end":6502.162,"text":"如果沒有在好 來 阿傑第十條來吧尤其是你委員請翻譯這個這一條也是一樣啦就是租市場透明化啦"},{"start":6503.001,"end":6520.118,"text":"因為這個我們也是跟內政部也溝通很久了啦因為現在看起來本來是說期待說看一下租賃專法有沒有進度嘛但是到目前為止租賃專法好像也還沒草案什麼都還沒有進到立法院所以那到底我們要怎麼來做處理我這邊再一次聽一聽內政部的意見啦"},{"start":6520.718,"end":6537.46,"text":"我們這邊就認為說因為你現在你內政部現在預期要提出的租賃專法裡面甚至都非常嚴格你要有甚至有進到什麼租期限制等等的深水區本來就引發很多社會爭議但是我覺得各方都可以先接受的平衡點是租屋市場的改革裡面一定要先做透明化嘛"},{"start":6538.061,"end":6552.458,"text":"那我們現在透明化的程度要做在哪裡要修在哪一個法條怎麼樣處理 時間表是什麼我覺得要很明確啦所以當初是因為這東西行政院這邊的節奏並不是特別明確所以我們那時候也要提租賃專法那時候提的是包租代管的的實價登錄嘛"},{"start":6553.459,"end":6566.446,"text":"然後這邊是在住宅法裡面也做同步修正但到最後你你都是不是匯流就是整合嗎但是我們要先清楚知道他的他的tempo是什麼他的內容是什麼他的內涵是什麼他的強度在哪裡所以我覺得今天還是花點時間討論一下好不好請內政部這邊做一下說明"},{"start":6571.312,"end":6592.744,"text":"那個地政司司長跟委員報告一下因為這一條主要是要把租補的一個交易資訊直接轉成實價登錄對外揭示那可能在執行上面會有幾個問題第一個可能會影響房東的出租意願那第二個就是現在租補都是房科申報的資料所以那個資料可能會有一些比較有問題所以那個可能也會造成一個市場資訊的一個不實"},{"start":6594.045,"end":6620.651,"text":"所以我們現在大概整個一個推動的方向第一個就有關於透明化第一個有關於仲介跟轉租約的部分我們現在已經要求就已經實價登錄了所以那個部分現在都可以查詢那第二個對於租補的一個相關資料我們現在是以去識別化的方式用統計的資訊來每半年對外提供所以這樣一樣是可以讓民眾來做一個租屋或是房東房客的一個租屋的參考那以上跟委員報告一下"},{"start":6622.674,"end":6646.349,"text":"那所以我們是建議這一條如果直接把朱博的資料轉為類似實價登錄直接個案提供的話可能會對於市場的影響會更大這樣謝謝市長那個狄漢文這邊還沒有意見你們要再補充說明嗎沒有我對因為我"},{"start":6649.079,"end":6670.659,"text":"比較我們為什麼會定一個區間或是一個範圍其實嚴格來講就是怕定毛效應因為定毛效應其實是滿危險的一件事所以我們才會一直是用區間然後定期公佈的概念去做其實就是這個概念所以我們才會建議在整個市場不是很穩定其實這個東西一直在變"},{"start":6671.5,"end":6693.985,"text":"但是我們現在的幸運是以我們現在租金補貼的狀態因為它的房屋 屋領都是偏舊所以它現在還相對穩定所以我們也不希望說用那種太細的公布去就怕現在包租公 包租婆去搞這種定毛效應出來的時候我們就很擔心整個會往上拉這樣反而造成租金補貼對民眾的一個衝擊會新的衝擊會造成"},{"start":6702.389,"end":6705.883,"text":"我們其他委員有意見嗎我先問一下大家好了 反正博弈委員"},{"start":6711.354,"end":6740.075,"text":"其實牛委員這個用意是好的啦但是這個可能時間還是要繼續拉長讓整個租屋市場的這個穩定度可以在我們的所有的包含社宅包含所有這些包租代管的業者的量大的時候那可能才慢慢的來揭露這些長期來講當然會是好的但是短期來講我會比較傾向害怕這個內政部現在擔心的租屋市場的這些穩定度"},{"start":6740.995,"end":6759.07,"text":"會造成這些包租公包租婆他可能會認為說我怎麼租房子價格比較便宜我怎麼租的比這一條路上的其他的人還便宜但是房屋老舊還是有它的一定的這個差別所以我比較傾向說利益是好的但是我們可能要拉長時間來處理這個問題謝謝"},{"start":6763.207,"end":6781.517,"text":"這條我建議我們一樣先保留一下一樣消化一下好不好因為47條也有談到相關的事啦主要是因為這次修法版本實在太多啦然後有些每個概念分散在不同的法條啦所以我覺得hold一下好不好這樣也不要耽誤大家時間OK那這樣這條我們保留齁那我們接下來下一條第15條第15條是15條15條亂世保"},{"start":6789.986,"end":6793.289,"text":"主席布袋內又不免了啦訓政委員黃婕有"},{"start":6800.265,"end":6803.566,"text":"針對第15條的修正現在因為目前的免稅額每個月僅1.5萬元那在2025的物價跟租金水準之下明顯的已經過時了所以本席是提出將免稅額度調升至2.5萬元就是希望讓這項政策能夠更貼近市場的設計的需求"},{"start":6821.514,"end":6844.571,"text":"那尤其是我們看到就說依內政部的統計目前適用公益出租人的戶數大概36萬財政估計損失大概是5.86億元而超過1萬5千元租金是公益出租人建樹僅6萬5千戶所以如果將免稅額提高到新台幣2萬5千元它的這個稅水應不至於過拒"},{"start":6845.131,"end":6869.246,"text":"而且因為事實上現在我們蓋社宅的進度是嚴重的落後所以如果能夠把這個免稅額提高到2.5萬元也是鼓勵全國各地的房東願意透明化那他們也願意進入這個社宅體系公民租用所以我想以這樣的一個方式把全國的這個閒置空屋轉化為社會資源這才是真正的立國立民 謝謝黃先生有什麼發言"},{"start":6874.295,"end":6895.056,"text":"好那我這條有提案就是希望這個公益出租人的租金收入的免稅額度可以用改為區域的住宅指標那我覺得因地制宜非常重要是因為這個額度其實對於各區的房東來說誘因的差距非常大就例如說雙北啊其實看一下租金的中位數其實都已經超過1.5萬的門檻"},{"start":6896.698,"end":6904.861,"text":"那對他們來說就是如果他們的租金中位數都已經是可能在1.8然後甚至超過甚至在雙北有一些租整戶的還超過3萬塊那這個免稅額度對他來說真的幫助不大那以我的選區來說我的選區在高雄也算是蠻精華地段的那中位數其實也都超過15000的這樣的免稅門檻了"},{"start":6919.165,"end":6934.418,"text":"所以這樣子租金最貴的物件都集中在我選區的話就會就會覺得你這個免稅額度真的有辦法鼓勵公益出租人嗎所以是不是各區改成一些各區的住宅指標或者是可以做到因地制宜你才真的可以讓這一些"},{"start":6935.399,"end":6955.318,"text":"租金最貴的精華地段的房東他們真的願意把空屋來釋出所以我覺得這樣其實也才可以真的幫助到租屋主啦你租的市場真的物件變多了嘛大家才會真的讓這一些空屋可以有更好的利用然後房東也才真的願意把這一些他過去他可能寧願都閒置在那邊耶以我的選區來說這些房東寧願房子就是放著"},{"start":6959.66,"end":6965.13,"text":"那你們要鼓勵他們出來出租啊那拜託可以多給一點誘因那要不要改一下指標好 謝謝那個財政部這邊委員的意見回應一下"},{"start":6979.536,"end":6995.926,"text":"跟我跟委員報告目前這個房東的租金這個免稅額度1.5萬就是全年18萬那我們房客也有免稅額度房客他可以報租金扣除了目前我們所得稅法規定也是18萬所以房東房客目前都18萬是很平的"},{"start":6996.326,"end":7014.438,"text":"那因為其實房東還是經濟比較優勢的族群那如果房東的免稅額度拉高比房客再高的話那我們覺得可能會有公平性的問題畢竟房東是比較經濟優勢而且他是收租金的人這是第一個考量"},{"start":7015.058,"end":7035.157,"text":"那第二個考量是說目前1.5萬我們有去統計他報稅的情形其實1.5萬其實對於大多數的房東是足夠適用的我們去統計這個租金沒有超過這個包括公益出租人跟這個社宅的這個房東他的租金沒有超過1.5萬的比例高達71%也就是71%的房東"},{"start":7040.242,"end":7058.536,"text":"的这个租金收入是在这个1.5万以下的所以这个免税额度是完全够用他都扣掉了那纵使房东他的租金收入有超过1.5万那另外他还可以减除费用又可以减除一个额度那这个费用可以减除至少43%或是再减除60%剩下的57%或者是40%才是他的"},{"start":7065.542,"end":7073.368,"text":"這個租金的所得那另外他報稅的時候又可以再減除他自己的免稅額跟相關扣除額所以層層減下來其實房東的稅負其實已經其實相對很輕了啦相對我們一般薪資所得者這個房東的租金收入已經很輕了所以我們建議說這個額度是不是為止"},{"start":7086.718,"end":7101.569,"text":"因為而且房東其實他的減免不只這個所得稅他還有房屋稅地價稅他也都可以按照自住的稅率最優惠的稅率來來適用房屋稅跟地價稅所以其實房東的租稅優惠其實項目還蠻多的以上說明我要跟那個徐政委員"},{"start":7108.986,"end":7131.065,"text":"其實剛剛我想財政部這邊的說明事實上我覺得你就是看著數字在說話而已而不是真正在實務市場為什麼現在很多房東不願意把他的房子做為公益的這個活動就是因為你的稅賦的減免只有1.5萬對他來說他就乾脆直接租人他能夠受到的經濟效益反而比較多所以你剛剛說雖然他是經濟弱勢可我們現在討論的是"},{"start":7134.248,"end":7139.311,"text":"這個實務面啦所以如果房屋參與這個公寓出租或包租貸款是要承擔房屋折舊跟管理風險所以如果免稅額度跟不上它現在真實的市場它當然不願意拿出來作為包租貸款所以針對這個部分我們是認為其實這個1.5萬其實從跟2025年的物價跟租賃水準已經是過時了所以本席才會提出說希望能夠提高到2.5萬"},{"start":7158.624,"end":7178.228,"text":"那當然這個金額是可以討論啦但是重點是我是覺得我們必須要去了解現在實務上為什麼很多房東不願意拿出來就是因為他只是想直接租給一般的人的話他不用承擔那麼多那他還可以這個賺得更多那為什麼他要作為這個包租貸款的一個公益債謝謝那個博文先生黃學文先生"},{"start":7186.903,"end":7212.057,"text":"好那我的意見也是覺得說那不能因為說已經給房東很優惠了所以我們就停在這裡那我們到底要怎麼往下走呢因為我們的目標還是希望更多房東願意把房子拿出來租嘛希望大家當公益出租人那你誘因不夠怎麼辦很明顯你說1.5萬已經要已經對房東很優惠了但事實上他誘因就是不夠嘛"},{"start":7213.138,"end":7228.031,"text":"他就是不願意拿出來那所以我除了請教財政部之外我也想問一下內政部有沒有更好的方式如果你們覺得免稅額度已經緊繃了那有沒有其他的做法願意讓房東把房子拿出來嗎"},{"start":7229.472,"end":7243.509,"text":"可不可以告訴我們幾個你們在做的對在做的方式如果這一條我們提的解方你們覺得不好那什麼東西更好你們提一個決議或者是接下來的政策方向那不然這一條我們一樣還是的只能保留啊"},{"start":7248.023,"end":7260.387,"text":"謝謝主席 來剛剛我對參政部提出來這個什麼目前有70%它的租金是在1.5萬以下我覺得這嚴重的跟現實社會狀況不符"},{"start":7262.068,"end":7288.736,"text":"那為什麼會嚴重的跟現實狀況不符不是財政部你的資料有問題而是就是有大量的超過1.5萬的人不願意來這邊申報這個是問題所在所以為什麼今天黃婕委員為什麼今天我們很多不分黨派委員都有提案希望財政部可以來檢討這個1.5萬的免稅額度就是問題就是在這裡"},{"start":7290.156,"end":7314.342,"text":"我想問一下財政部這個1.5萬已經施行多久了多久沒有做調整了這個也可以跟委員會報告一下我們希望這一個也不是說內政部就可以決定希望財政部可以具體的提出的免稅額度包含跟房客的免稅額度來做一個討論我覺得還是要提高不然跟台灣現實的社會狀況確實不符謝謝內政部長好"},{"start":7322.777,"end":7351.428,"text":"跟各位說明一下因為我們上次修法是在110年那時候是提高到這個1.5萬那但是呢我印象原來是1萬1萬那我說明這第一個啦第二個就是說我們當時也有條文就是說我們這第23條的第二項第二款它裡面有寫就是說出租期間的租金所得必要的損耗減除是可以提出來的"},{"start":7352.668,"end":7376.1,"text":"那如果沒有的話就是照租金的收入的60%計算也就是說我今天超出的部分還可以再扣下一切超出的部分還可以扣下一切這是第一個要跟他說明就是並不是我超出的部分通通都算不是本來條例裡面就有考慮到房東他有一些必要性的支出這是第一個要跟他說明第二個就是說"},{"start":7376.92,"end":7403.775,"text":"我們在當時在討論這個提案的時候第二個關鍵點是當時所引用的資料的確今天是社會住宅今天能租得起租金補貼然後租金補貼符合他的所得跟身分筆記都有一定的限制尤其是所得這件事情那我們以現在租屋的所得租屋佔所得平均大概是25%到30%來算我如果是1萬5那我可能是收入已經是4萬5到6萬之間"},{"start":7406.796,"end":7427.955,"text":"四萬五到六萬之間那就單一房間喔 單一房間在算所以當時是用這樣的概念也就是說這些四萬五到六萬之間在一般縣市我們所列出來符合所得的那個租金符合申請租金補貼來講它就是差不多剛好到那個數字也就差不多剛好到那個那我今天如果提高到兩萬五好了"},{"start":7430.851,"end":7447.606,"text":"也就相對來講我的所得區間是不是也要跟著拉高也就是說我如果用25%算那我收入10萬以下的通通都可以申請租金補貼他反過來就會回推這個概念都會回推這個概念所以這中間是他相對之間是有一個聯動關係的"},{"start":7449.434,"end":7475.872,"text":"當然就是相對之有連動關係我們現在租金補貼台北市是5萬7月所得是5萬7那一般縣市是4萬5到5萬之間所以跟各位報告他其實當然相對應就是說這個免稅跟相對之間是有連動我覺得我如果去提高的話會不會改天又是另外一個議題來了你這個都提高到這樣那你現在租金所得比"},{"start":7477.453,"end":7494.698,"text":"符合住的人的資格我是不是所得要再提高那這樣其實相對來講就整個社會的關懷那其實又是另外一個議題所以我才會跟大家報告因為我們今天是做社會住宅當然基本的定義是會跟他的所得會有一些連動所以才會跟大家做這樣的一個報告"},{"start":7496.799,"end":7512.93,"text":"這其實也跟財政部持續有在討論另外一種就是說我們是希望如果說後續要鼓勵釋出空屋或是鼓勵房東釋出更多的話其實現在目前在研究的是擁有第三房的稅率"},{"start":7514.672,"end":7532.848,"text":"就是說你如果有第三房的或者是你是想轉的那我可不可以相關的這一個條件能夠去刺激他鼓勵更多的空屋來釋出所以我是建議說我們是今天用負債決議的方式去要求我們來做持續做檢討第二個就是說去鼓勵更多釋出的話"},{"start":7537.913,"end":7545.936,"text":"是反而是在其他的稅務來講能夠去充分做檢討那這樣的話來鼓勵更多房東來釋出就這樣說明這個說明之後那個提案委員"},{"start":7557.117,"end":7582.566,"text":"那對啊 那是不是你我們一個附帶決議就是說要定期檢討這個租金區間的市場價格指標對 然後來訂定這個滾動式調整免稅額度以及就是研擬更多鼓勵公益出租人的誘因把這兩件事情都放進去這邊也OK啦 沒人見徐政委"},{"start":7585.788,"end":7611.062,"text":"我想剛剛署長有提到的大概是現行的一個狀況我們提到的其實就是實務上面對的一個問題既然現在社會住宅事實上它興建的進度其實是嚴重的落後所以其實還有很多的房源是需要公益的出租代管的這些房東願意來釋出當然就是說我想最主要的目的是這樣剛剛署長已經有提到說可以有一些替代的方案"},{"start":7611.622,"end":7622.83,"text":"所以我也同意從由附帶決議這邊來去好不好那這樣我們15條就按照現行條文啊就後面用個附帶決議來好 可是那我們接下來當然來賓不容許16條欸 喬惠惠沒在沒在 這樣下一條16條沒有18條18條是"},{"start":7641.485,"end":7641.906,"text":"黃學委員"},{"start":7655.1,"end":7673.663,"text":"好 這一條我有提案那我在提案說明的時候其實有講其實就是輪候制輪候制我們已經講很久了那當然一開始是跟我說因為存量不足的時候輪候制沒有意義但是我是覺得這個平台遲早要建立的早建立晚建立都要讓大家來登記"},{"start":7674.904,"end":7703.707,"text":"因為不管怎麼樣你們都要先抓一下市場到底有多少需求嘛然後大家的房型大家要的區段在哪裡這個你們一定都有這個平台的話對你們來說也比較好掌握到底設宅的存量要到怎麼樣才足夠然後哪邊要的是哪一類的房型然後大概的家庭的模式是真的是婚育的青年家庭居多還是其實單身者的需求居多這個你們也會比較好掌握所以我很希望說這個登記平台我們就把它建立"},{"start":7704.267,"end":7710.112,"text":"未來可以施行輪候制的時候也用得到好那接下來那個麥政委員主席我們現在內政部用的就是"},{"start":7719.42,"end":7739.077,"text":"租金補租的問卷來評估就是社會租宅的需求樣本我們覺得這樣子是不對的因為回收率只有22.4%這不是掌握需求這是拿就是市政的資料決定需求蓋多少或者蓋在哪裡"},{"start":7739.817,"end":7743.839,"text":"蓋什麼房型所以住宅法這18條早就寫得很清楚就是主管機關應評估住宅需求總量區位還有餘新班戶數但到現在都沒有真正的落實所以等於就是違背立法的本意所以我們這邊內政部有說就是說成豬資格"},{"start":7768.648,"end":7775.675,"text":"資料 界界平台但我們只看到的就是房子蓋好後處理申請的名單不是先掌握要不要蓋或者蓋了多少 蓋在哪裡這根本就是我們看的資料就是答非所問啦"},{"start":7787.285,"end":7789.486,"text":"所以我們主張建議全國統一住宅需求的登記平台讓有需求的民眾先登記一次真正的才能依據真實需求來規劃住宅技術不是問題因為我們看到台北市已經在做了修法只是為了全國統一也補齊資料"},{"start":7812.518,"end":7820.784,"text":"借阶的法律的授权这个就是我们民众党的一个说明谢谢好谢谢那现在请张志伦委员"},{"start":7822.352,"end":7849.307,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位同仁本席這邊也支持住宅法第18條的修正就是主宰機該應建制重點是社會住宅需求登記平台當時我記得我有質詢過署長署長當時也同意說應該整個社會住宅應該要設立一個平台不管是統計整個社宅的數量然後整個登記的一個狀況才知道說哪邊的社宅的需求比較大"},{"start":7849.827,"end":7866.153,"text":"那雖然內政部現在是有這個自衛住宅的需求調查可是是抽樣不是不定期辦理所以跟實際的這個資訊跟實際常常會有落差所以我還是要拜託就是說因為這個社宅有分中央跟地方唯有用一個整個的規劃系統"},{"start":7868.273,"end":7893.419,"text":"讓這個全國有需要的民眾及時登記然後提供必要的資料讓政府可以掌控總量以及到底是要哪個區位以及戶型等等以及公共設施的需求讓資源的配置可以更完整以及未來大家有很多民眾重複登記或是登記完了以後等待遙遙無期然後讓大家未來不需要再重複登記節省民眾的時間跟行政成本等等狀況所以我覺得這條的修正"},{"start":7894.679,"end":7909.625,"text":"是可以提高行政效率而且可以增加社宅的公平性到社宅的规划跟民众的需求才可以真正的接轨以上谢谢谢谢我们请黄建豪委员发言好谢谢黄建斌召委的这个我是黄建豪"},{"start":7911.468,"end":7927.991,"text":"那個我是要針對第18條的部分我是有跟徐新委員共同提案談這個所謂取得輪候制的部分我是要跟這個部長也跟我們署長來分享我的觀念因為剛剛前面第4條我們有參與到因為比較晚到但是包含第4條的時候大家討論說到底是"},{"start":7928.792,"end":7951.611,"text":"北三都到台中桃園台北的狀況到底哪些人需要做婚育宅哪些人需要有婚生子女需要住這種社會住宅然後哪些屬於其他的其他縣市的部分他們比較小的縣市他們可能沒有這麼多需求所以光是我們剛剛光是在討論第10條的時候我看直播的時候我們在10% 20%的部分在爭論不休但原因就是因為我們沒有第18條這個東西我們不知道說"},{"start":7952.412,"end":7977.504,"text":"到底現在各城市有哪些的需求那因為現在社宅部分除了中央興建之外有些地方政府興建那包含之前也提到說未來也希望鼓勵民間來幫忙興辦所謂社會住宅各種政策可能還在提出來所以如果我們沒辦法掌握到各城市它的區位上有什麼不一樣各城市的真正需求那包含說內政部也好或各地方政府也好甚至未來想要進場的民間興辦社宅的部分也好"},{"start":7978.024,"end":7998.585,"text":"他們都我們都沒有一個很全面性的圖像知道說到底哪裡哪裡還真的需要哪裡已經不需要那已經蓋太多了我覺得現在大家都用感覺的用體感的然後包含說就包含抽樣的因為這裡我覺得這裡不是民調這個跟民調不太一樣這是實際上有這個需求的這個人人在哪裡這個是我覺得政府在掌握數據上應該更明確一點因為包含說"},{"start":7999.266,"end":8022.74,"text":"每次我們在提很相關質詢的時候我們看到的數據都是內政部後來提供給我們但是我們在事前並沒有辦法確實掌握各地方政府或各地方各城市他需要的人數長怎麼樣那還是要回到剛剛的問題就是包含說我們在第10條修正的時候40%是屬於保障弱勢這個我們沒有問題但是剩下的多少比例用來做婚育宅或各城市他可能他各城市的婚生比例其實也都不太一樣也有地方"},{"start":8023.18,"end":8050.039,"text":"他發展很快有好的就業機會所以他可能婚生的這個比例會高一點但是如果沒有的部分那可能他需要婚生婚姻宅的這個比例又相當低一點所以在每個城市的部分的調整也都狀況不一樣所以我覺得如果能夠把18條入法讓他輪候制讓大家能夠確實的去了解自己的讓政府掌握到各地的需求的話我覺得這對整個法案的這個社會住宅的這個政策才有這邊的幫助以上 謝謝謝謝 那麼請王美惠召委"},{"start":8051.624,"end":8054.467,"text":"就是在這十八條 我覺得每一個縣市去的完成的時間不一樣因為我覺得 你們如果在每一個縣市的完成的半年"},{"start":8067.978,"end":8073.866,"text":"來調查可能會更加清楚、更加實在啦不然你說一句話變成這樣你們兩黨情他寫的一定記的兩黨奧我們對他們的完成跟一定記的不一定一樣啦"},{"start":8084.191,"end":8095.959,"text":"大家說實在的 我們去這裡的社會主宰就是說真的會到位啦 不是隨便說的去多少雖然不夠的選擇 也要讓當地的人了解說我們的當地現在要去多少有多少可以來登記 它清楚合理了啦 以上"},{"start":8108.267,"end":8135.974,"text":"感謝我們會招委我們這邊來回應一下其實這個議題這也是好多年其實它最早是從輪候制這個概念出來輪候制這個概念然後後來要去提到需求登記平台但是需求登記平台在我們來看因為各地的完成時間都不一樣但是對一個人來講譬如說我現在在台北念書那我一定是可能北北我都去登記了"},{"start":8136.954,"end":8164.09,"text":"可是如果這個是兩年後不管啊因為兩年後可能你去去台中我畢業了我去台中工作我去哪裡工作可是你登記在上面了原來奧爾茲這樣你登記了你就要去處理那你登記了結果你人根本就跑到台中去了你跑到台中去了那這個就變一個超大的許願值然後你變成每天都在處理這些那他也可能我預想我也要在那裡工作我就通通把你登記了"},{"start":8165.154,"end":8193.56,"text":"那你這個數量就會變暴增數量其實是暴增而且變成整個不管是中央或地方政府的主管機關都疲於奔命在處理這些事情因為每個人的對自己的規劃的願景是不一樣也有可能實務上就差距很大所以我才建議說但是怎麼樣提早讓更多民眾知道這件事是有好處的所以我是建議是說是應該我們要提早來公告"},{"start":8194.717,"end":8215.703,"text":"那我們現在的做法都是拿到死照才敢去公告我們現在做法是拿到死照才敢去公告那時候也是為了怕怕這個就是說時間不夠那所以或者是說時間不夠準確才但是我是覺得對很多民眾來講提早讓他知道其實是蠻重要的"},{"start":8216.523,"end":8233.388,"text":"提早讓他知道 是嗎雖然說我們現在在網路上都可以查得到但是很多民眾不一定會認真去查這件事情那怎麼樣提早讓民眾知道第二個建立輪候制現在各縣市政府現在推的都有輪候制只是大家輪候制的方式不太一樣而已"},{"start":8234.168,"end":8248.28,"text":"所以我覺得輪候制這個事情可以寫但是不要去說一定要限制是哪個輪候制或者是說應該要把應該也不是寫輪候制就是說它的候補的方式應該要有清楚的一個定義"},{"start":8250.522,"end":8271.616,"text":"我來補充一下署長他考慮到的是實務面但是各個委員所提到的部分我是覺得說我傾向同意但是要修正文字修正什麼文字就是說第一個如果有提出假性需求的話對於中央政府在評估譬如說每個人都是要兩年五年之後但是他已經有到別的地方去了"},{"start":8272.356,"end":8300.975,"text":"那這個會變成假性需求的話會造成包括中央跟地方政府在財務評估或是社會住宅評估太膨脹這反而會造成我們非常大的困擾但是因為他的社會需求社宅的需求的登記平台他是希望能夠統一化雖然我們現在只有跟台北市有有討論過但是其他都沒有討論過會剛剛署長跟組長他們所碰到的問題會碰到第一個我們未來可不可以借接他的財稅資料"},{"start":8302.957,"end":8323.116,"text":"因為他如果沒有借財稅資料是不是符合社會住宅登記的資格那第一關就要先刷掉但是現在中央的財稅資料是不可能跟那個地方政府做嫁接的這是一個戶籍因為是內政部主管我們跟地方上我們可以自己內部來處理這是我們碰到比較大的困擾"},{"start":8323.777,"end":8351.602,"text":"那還有一個就是剛剛所提到的這個假性需求過多的狀況之下所以我們可不可以把文字再做修正不要講成說你只要有樹木支出來然後你兩年後你要設宅就要蓋出來我覺得這個太簡單跟這個對但是這樣的一個需求登記的平台在合法合規的狀況之下譬如說這個人他已經兩年之後他的戶籍譬如說本來在台中市念書他兩年後已經不在台中市"},{"start":8352.202,"end":8369.996,"text":"可能我們在做這個update的時候他資料可能就被wave掉了就是被刪除掉了他已經不可能在台中申請社宅了所以這個部分的實際上的做法讓我們有點時間去處理那不要太詳盡因為越詳盡就是把行政機關綁得越死"},{"start":8374.261,"end":8394.511,"text":"地方上就是做不到我要跟各位報告我們每一條條文國土署很認真他都會跟每個縣市尤其是六都都會討論不是說我們在那邊隨便講的討論過了以後他們確實困難度非常大那只不過我們是一起來提出來而已提供給各位參考好嗎各位的想法怎麼樣那個林徐庭委員"},{"start":8396.574,"end":8422.235,"text":"我覺得蠻好部長至少明確宣示因為我覺得這一條大概是大家都覺得要過就是說目標上當然要朝向輪候制當然你輪候制的前提是我們涉財總量要足夠他才會整個政策效果才會長出來既然現在大家都往這個方向去我是覺得就同步進行文字要修正大概需要多少的時間還是我們這一條一樣大家也要來消化一下順便產生一下新的文字還是現在已經長出來了就大家來討論張榮路委員請發言"},{"start":8427.41,"end":8440.608,"text":"我覺得大家思考的角度也是對的內政部他們說難處理也是對的實際上也是這樣不過我覺得讓民眾如果"},{"start":8442.83,"end":8460.503,"text":"我們現行條文是主管機關應評估總量怎樣但這都是你們評估沒有納入民眾的需求的資訊沒有納入民眾需求的資訊如果這18條我們把登記拿掉"},{"start":8461.704,"end":8475.052,"text":"把登記拿掉就比如說主管機關應建置社會住宅需求平台然後並定期統計分析其需求資訊等等的就是把登記的部分拿掉"},{"start":8476.428,"end":8491.929,"text":"我不知道這樣子我覺得比較符合所有委員的想法內政部也可以去處理那也不會說你們所設計的社會宅全部你們沒有考慮到市場的需求"},{"start":8493.01,"end":8520.076,"text":"就是自己想 自己做你會全國都一樣但如果你有更多的資訊大家的需求你如果有這個需求平台可能北部的他需要的可能是小坪數或什麼的南部需要大坪數你們可以借這個也去統計資料你們的未來在設計社會宅的這個你們會有更明確的數字我的建議是這樣"},{"start":8522.373,"end":8548.903,"text":"黃江委員補充說明好 謝謝趙偉我還是要回應一下我們署長跟內政部剛剛提的因為你們剛剛提到比較像是說我蓋好之後讓大家來輪候讓大家來登記來掌握需求但是我們其實我當初我們訂這個18條的目的跟希望是說真的是要讓中央政府讓整體掌握說各地不同的狀況就像我講六都裡面就即便是台中跟台北甚至跟高雄它的狀況一定是不太一樣的"},{"start":8549.663,"end":8564.208,"text":"所以我也想問說就是像包含內政部現在要怎麼樣去知道說各地要蓋多少社宅這個數字你們怎麼來的那如果今天有這個平台的話你們是不是就比較有明確的方向能夠知道所以就是我覺得我們的方向是這樣希望能夠往這個方向走以上 謝謝"},{"start":8565.868,"end":8590.921,"text":"我可不可以再回應一下就是說是不是讓我們修正一下文字因為這個在規範中央的內政部其實也會對縣市地方政府有壓力那縣市地方政府的壓力就是在於說如果那邊突然暴增很多的話那縣市地方政府他的興建設宅的速度又不夠快那其實他需要有其他的一個備變措施或其他的這個援助的方案來幫忙處理"},{"start":8592.282,"end":8617.67,"text":"那但是呢如果寫得非常的細區位房型社會福利公共設施這些其實就又恢復到原來的部分所以是不是把它再簡化一些就是第一個讓社會住宅的登記是一個透明化讓大家知道這個方向是多少譬如說北北桃中或是南高雄等等這些合在一起是多少戶讓大家有個概念也比較好"},{"start":8618.61,"end":8636.472,"text":"那我們同時呢也經過一個實名制的一個登記或者實名制的需求的方式的話可以刪除就是到處去登記啦也有人到處去登記你現在是因為是申請現在是申請但是他在"},{"start":8638.613,"end":8657.28,"text":"對啊對啊對啊我們來設計我們來設計他不能到處去登記那個那個我補充一下啦剛剛意思就是說因為你剛剛有講嘛大概從資料嫁接兩部分一個是戶籍資料一個是稅務資料嘛那這個東西只要大家能夠講好為什麼要修在住宅法裡面就是要有專案來抓種嘛你才有機會去處理這個事嘛"},{"start":8658.28,"end":8685.227,"text":"那你如果戶籍資料包含實名制登記等等都有那你所謂的假性需求你就可以做大我不敢講百分之百的判斷但你可以做大方向的判斷嘛比如說有一個人他登記了20處涉宅需求但他就是20個你如果設計實名制登記的話他就是你就知道這20個需求其實是一個需求嘛所以你的假性需求的問題是可以被處理的嘛我認為技術上都是可以被處理的那既然現在大家講文字的修正跟濃縮嘛"},{"start":8686.974,"end":8707.063,"text":"對啊所以我是覺得這個登記平台無論如何是要做啦我覺得我們立場是非常清楚啦那但是保留一些文字調整的空間大家商量一下看有沒有辦法達成共識這一點我也是OK的啦對我們保留一下好不好我們先保留然後看文字怎麼修正就說不然要什麼時候時間先可以馬上提供嗎還是"},{"start":8707.563,"end":8721.578,"text":"因為每個人等一下 我要說一下你們有好幾個人的條文不是 我要說一下我們第18條本來原來的條文裡面就沒有到登記"},{"start":8724.281,"end":8745.221,"text":"18條的條文本來就沒有登記這個你看現行條文本來就沒有所以我才會說你把登記拿掉你把登記拿掉然後你有很多的讓需求讓民眾可以去表達你就解決了所有大家所說的問題這樣子就可以解決18條大家在爭論的問題了"},{"start":8748.279,"end":8756.195,"text":"好啦 謝謝張錄影大家都有意見然後內政部這邊也會再提出文字修正不然這個我們也先保留我們去往下一個地方走那接下來下一個"},{"start":8761.292,"end":8762.012,"text":"19條 民眾黨蔓延"},{"start":8782.748,"end":8800.927,"text":"謝謝主席第19條這邊我們看到的就是說我們賴政府含就是13萬戶的社宅但卡關最大的問題就是沒有地沒辦法蓋剛才一直在講的就是地區不一樣所以呢去"},{"start":8803.849,"end":8817.936,"text":"那個去斷的徵收還有四地重劃本來就是政府最重要的土地來源卻長期只拿去就是飆售或者是六都"},{"start":8820.287,"end":8835.335,"text":"六都都是整開了賺了就是1976億但卻沒有地蓋設宅所以行政院呢在13年也是說專案讓讓售就是要"},{"start":8836.235,"end":8842.663,"text":"中央花800億跟地方買地但是行政院又說嫌財政負擔太重證明這一條就是根本走不通也不合理所以呢我們要回到制度面來解決把社宅用地"},{"start":8855.658,"end":8883.14,"text":"列為整體開發必要公用措施社福用地由內政部定標準 依人口的需求彈性流射不是一刀切 而是把土地留住這樣就是說我們的社宅為必要的公共設施這個就是我們的提案說明 謝謝"},{"start":8886.161,"end":8899.495,"text":"內政部這邊來回應其實非常感謝委員大家的提案其實大家都希望為社宅爭取土地我們現在用的是用方案來進行是因為我們會考慮地方真實的需求"},{"start":8900.635,"end":8919.944,"text":"因為你入了法以後他就會變成是必要的手段那我舉例我們前一陣子才剛處理的那個也是昭緯所在的那個台東他有一個新開發區在太馬里那他依照規定他我們幫他算出來他要需要留快3公頃的社宅土地大概可以1500戶"},{"start":8921.604,"end":8937.6,"text":"那我們其實那時候連委員連都會委員都很尷尬因為我們都知道在泰馬里人口還在衰退結果他依照規定他新開發區就要去留這個其實可能對台東縣政府的壓力真的太沉重了因為做了他要去做啦"},{"start":8938.18,"end":8956.026,"text":"那所以我們後來才會就是我們其實在擬定的過程當中有考慮這件事情那所以才會建議就是說它是一個德啦 而且是一個橫左的概念這樣我們可以因應地方的真實需求那我們現在為什麼去取這個就是大概針對北北 陶中"},{"start":8957.106,"end":8975.088,"text":"這些最稀缺的位置那我們來跟地方政府來談那其實北北 桃中目前大致上也都願意做配合啦他們其實大家都願意那因為台南 高雄其實之前已經出過很多這種土地了那其實他們量也充了很快但是他們也願意都配合願意都配合那我們所以才會建議說"},{"start":8976.509,"end":9004.098,"text":"非常感激委員但是我建議是在後面我們去補充做一個條文去橫著當地的需求再去要求就好了是做這件事情不要去再現在19條那昭緯剛剛也有一個意見是說要不要統一放在後面的一個條文去寫橫著地方的狀況來做處理那這樣就可以避免在差異比較大的地方他不一定要他去留這件事情"},{"start":9006.431,"end":9021.701,"text":"好 我們一直都說我們一直就說就是修法就是要給人民有方便也給我們的弱勢族群有更好的租屋但是你現在"},{"start":9022.561,"end":9043.671,"text":"都說北北 陶宗人的需求比較多但是呢你現在都拿少數的來去說這樣子的一個問題所以沒有留地蓋住宅是我們現在是你們要推出的法案你們又一直拿少數的人來去講這個我們不是解決問題啦所以還有說我們希望的就是"},{"start":9050.074,"end":9054.595,"text":"不是彈性 也不是浪費機會 我們是說的不是一刀切 剛才我們也講清楚但現在就是10公斤以上的強制規定才叫做一刀切修法就是要授權內政部定辦法嘛就看人口的需求來去調比例公平又彈性反而不是更就是硬地於之"},{"start":9078.84,"end":9100.085,"text":"就是因那個地方來自治一個方便嘛所以我們希望就是當然是我們修法以需求來去修法不是說你一直在講的就是少數的人口啊少數的地啊 留更多沒有人住我們真的是要真的有多少人跟我們反映"},{"start":9100.465,"end":9104.648,"text":"有需求我們講的你們也覺得說各個地方的需求還有蓋的也不是說我們需求就馬上就蓋好啊但是有很多人的需求你還沒蓋啊這個不需求有可能你蓋好這個就是也沒有百分之百全部每一個地方你都蓋好沒有吧對不對所以我們就是希望收權以你們怎麼去定我們沒有說"},{"start":9126.304,"end":9129.446,"text":"一定全國嘛 這個就是我們的說明 謝謝有沒有其他問題"},{"start":9139.454,"end":9159.765,"text":"我覺得這樣子啦因為我剛有講嘛就住宅法這一次因為提案條文非常多然後大家用不同的條文去解決同一件事情所以跟召委報告一下我們19 20還有我自己提的21條之一我是用陣列的方式處理其實都是處理同一件事嘛也就是說做都市計畫的時候那個底廢地要不要明列就是用一定的比例要留給社宅嘛"},{"start":9160.585,"end":9184.219,"text":"然後那中間這個東西的機制要怎麼樣來做優化是不是這三條其實可以一起處理啦一起處理那我的想法是這樣啦就是說因為大家寫的差別其實就是強度差別嘛有些寫非常清楚就是說你要把你要留甚至留百分之多少一定要留給社宅嘛那有一些是有一些是比較範圍比較大那我們先聽一聽這個行政機關的這樣子的一個意見然後我們看看有沒有辦法找到一個平衡點因為"},{"start":9186.46,"end":9205.847,"text":"呃實務就我了解啦實務上來講你們在要求都市計畫的時候本來就會要求要做一些那個社宅嘛對不對所以說其實這個也並沒有背離現在中央政府推動的政策方向那只是怎麼樣讓他明確化然後那個甜蜜點在哪裡平衡點在哪裡好那我們大家討論一下以上所以我就覺得19 20 21之一可以一起啦大家對於這些條件有意見的時候可以一起來做處理好不好"},{"start":9206.226,"end":9225.245,"text":"那徐政委呢本期是提出第20條的修正案那剛剛那個我們牛委員有特別提到其實跟19、20、20之一是也是相關的那當然本期提出的修正是希望將區段徵收取得之可這個建築用地跟市地重劃取得之底廢地明確的納入可以採"},{"start":9225.865,"end":9251.112,"text":"核建分屋興辦社宅的方式那當然核建分屋的優點是政府不必一次投入全部的興建資金而且透過民間合作加速的供給也分回房屋作為社宅讓土地公用的利益最大化而且也可以避免整體開發的成果被市場化吞沒所以本席是主張就是說應該是要用這樣的一個方式來去落實土地正義的具體行動謝謝"},{"start":9254.694,"end":9282.216,"text":"我們還有沒有其他委員的意見不然我們就請內政部來就剛剛兩位委員提到的意見來回應好 其實就內政部來講其實是會實務上來講就是保留的確要因應各縣市政府的這個未來要擬定或者是要變更都市計畫的時候保留一些就是我們會要求他但是也會有一個因地制宜的一個考慮"},{"start":9283.277,"end":9297.579,"text":"所以我會比較贊成是在也是在跟紐委員大概有講是在21條之一去來處理這一個事情但是可以把它清楚的定義出來是說那要優先可以優先用哪些方式來"},{"start":9298.7,"end":9325.431,"text":"做解決所以也是儲備土地的時候可以優先把屈安徵收勢力重劃的這一個去辦但是真實的方法就不要再太明略因為真實的方法的時候有時候反而讓縣市政府在處理的時候就綁手綁腳就是所以這件事情會變成說讓他有一個原則性的定義就好不要有清楚的數字比例這樣的話反而可以讓地方政府比較有做事上比較有彈性"},{"start":9326.807,"end":9342.267,"text":"所以署長的意思就是說同意用這樣的一個方式但是不要明定的太清楚的比例是這樣的意思嗎那這樣縣市政府會比較好對 那條文的部分的話署長是認為應該用什麼樣的方式我是會比較贊成在21條之一看看大家來討論同一個寫法"},{"start":9345.231,"end":9348.674,"text":"同一個寫法那是不是寫法我們來斟酌一下來修一下看這樣會比較好那同意是不是請署長這邊可以有一個寫法來去我們再來討論我們現在的確都是看案子來處理就是說有些的確比較偏鄉的我們就不太講說請這樣馬上去留他那這樣反而會造成執行上的"},{"start":9368.391,"end":9382.23,"text":"呃有現在就是剛剛那個太慢了就是有啊但是面積又很大結果一塊就應該就沒辦法沒錯反而造成就是縣政委也抓留那一塊地還不知道能做什麼因為被卡住了他也不能動"},{"start":9385.373,"end":9396.501,"text":"好 那個內政部補充說明之後這個19 20我們就19條跟20條就是先維持現行條文那牛委員的建議是在2121-1啦 21-1來一併來修啦好 有沒有各位意見"},{"start":9405.086,"end":9420.395,"text":"21-1我剛剛講嘛21-1我是這樣寫的啦就是說應該要先會商相關的這個東西也就是說應該要做這件事啦也就是說做每個都市計畫的時候你都要去評估有沒有空間來做社會住宅嘛然後當然也配合這個各都市計畫的差異嘛你像這種"},{"start":9422.076,"end":9437.311,"text":"人口密集的都市計畫區他一定會有附近有捷運等等他一定會有社會住宅需求你當然就應該要預留嘛所以那我們後面這一道這個寫的比較詳細的是如何去儲備設宅的土地是用如果你用區段增收或者是市地存活辦理都市計畫的開發對不對如果"},{"start":9440.083,"end":9461.953,"text":"就是說前面你如果有預留你當然就預留如果前面沒有預留或怎麼樣但是你達到了財務的平衡的時候你就應該要多蓋一些社會住宅這樣子的條文的設計我想聽一聽內政部的意見我再次強調說除以依前項規定辦理者外與開發財務損益平衡時僅僅保留一定比例"},{"start":9462.933,"end":9479.923,"text":"其餘可供建築或折價抵付共同負擔之住宅區的土地也就是說如果這個都市計畫不管它是市計重劃或者是區案徵收你已經達成財務平衡的時候你剩下的抵費地或者是配餘地你就要保留一部分給社宅或者是可負擔住宅等等的方式來做處理"},{"start":9480.823,"end":9503.531,"text":"用這樣的前提條件能不能解決剛剛署長講嘛署長比如說你剛剛講台東泰馬里就是顯然就是那個那個就是不見得有需求嘛但我剛剛也問了嘛你說不見得有需求他會不會損益平衡他不會損益平衡的嘛因為他開發的量能沒有這麼大需求沒有這麼大那不會損益平衡的時候就不用留土地給社宅嘛但你到了損益平衡的時候你就留這樣的機制是否可行大家是可以商量一下好不好國土組說明一下"},{"start":9510.495,"end":9535.986,"text":"我剛剛會謝謝委員的提供這個草案那我剛剛為什麼說我們來修正也就是說我也建議有一些細節因為開發損益平衡這件事情是在他去送那個報告的時候才會出來尤其是重劃尤其是重劃因為前面都是粗估前面都是粗估那對我們來講我們會是先在都計劃的階段先把它做一個試算"},{"start":9537.266,"end":9565.974,"text":"那對縣市政委也是一個初步評估那所以我才會建議就是說開發損益平衡這件事不一定要寫因為我們其實在現行的都市計畫在評估的時候就兩個就會我們一定在都市計畫的時候就會先讓它平衡只是說這個平衡在後面的屈斷針頭15的時候那個數字會變動所以我才說這部分是不是容我們再把它做一些修正大致上文字架構是這樣沒有說但我們再來做一些細節的修正"},{"start":9569.004,"end":9592.991,"text":"剛有講說19、20不要修那放在20條之一啦21條之一但是那個牛委員的提案的部分我建議可以再做一個概括性的描述我們現在碰到的問題是這樣子這個市地重劃如果說給我們地方政府有太大的空間的話他會每一塊的市地重劃都劃得很小所以根本沒有開發設展的空間"},{"start":9593.991,"end":9613.728,"text":"那如果是大面積的話呢他又要考慮到說3%或5%的話他的財務損益平衡又不夠而且我們現在在都市計畫的時候通常都會有這個容積獎勵譬如說如果你是以這個要蓋捷運的話會有TOD那這些有很多條件呢都會因地"},{"start":9614.389,"end":9635.398,"text":"因時或是因都市計畫而改變所以是不是剛剛那個署長說的部分把它變成是一個比較概括性的政策上的宣示的話那我們會跟地方政府來處理怎麼樣把有一些用地放出來蓋那個公共 蓋那個社會住宅可能會比較好"},{"start":9636.238,"end":9651.24,"text":"因為你把這個財務損益平衡放進去裡面的話大概沒有縣市政府可以達到這一點通常蓋社宅都是虧損只是說他要用未來的其他的我跟部長報告一下他這個損益平衡是整個都市計畫的損益平衡"},{"start":9651.761,"end":9679.98,"text":"就是說我要先區單徵收或什麼我要投入成本嘛然後我底費賣掉之後這個的大計劃的損益平衡但是我剛有講到時間啦如果你整個都市計畫或整個市地重劃是20年損益平衡那你覺得他也會delay嘛我理解不要啊對啊好沒關係一樣嘛因為看起來文字上要做一下有一些意見嘛那我們就一樣hold一下消化一下嘛那這一題這一條2121之一我們也是先保留啦齁那接下來接下來繼續"},{"start":9684.403,"end":9685.783,"text":"19之一還有19之一第19之一民政黨"},{"start":9697.672,"end":9712.329,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們在包租比例弱勢的機制這邊我們是弱勢租屋最常備就是巨租包租就是一個解方但現在就是包租占"},{"start":9713.51,"end":9719.734,"text":"只佔32%明顯的失衡不是房東不想幫是制度沒有優惑所以呢就是幽陰所以包租風險高還有責任重遇到弱勢房客就這生活照顧比較有一些糾紛的問題所以房東最怕沒人接手所以淡補租缺乏代管"},{"start":9739.767,"end":9757.757,"text":"的比例差不多所以業者當然選擇輕鬆一點的修法的重點很簡單就是說包租要有明確比例的目標優先照顧我們的弱勢並由內政部會同衛福部建立"},{"start":9758.797,"end":9764.16,"text":"後端知識與轉介的機制把照顧與協調的責任從房東的身上拿走降低就是餘力否則就是包租永遠做不到也做不大弱勢也永遠就是被拒租這是我們的提案說明是要說我們要把就是包租這個部分要有一些誘因讓他們房東"},{"start":9787.695,"end":9800.371,"text":"願意讓包租不是貸款 以上謝謝那內政部這邊 保生署這邊來回應一下好 我這邊說明一下其實我們也都很希望包租能夠拉高啦那事實上這就是房東意願的養成"},{"start":9806.028,"end":9828.607,"text":"現在其實我們這幾年下來租金補貼下來慢慢在養成房東願意慢慢轉成公益出准甚至慢慢願意提高這樣的一個心態但是以包租代管來講的確現在的成熟已經接近40%但是你說一下要把它50%我們當然是反而嚇跑了房東反而嚇跑了房東現在房東老實說都在養成階段"},{"start":9829.848,"end":9846.323,"text":"所以我們建議這個是慢慢一步一步來要慢慢提高他們但是你現在限制他要50看很多房東直接就嚇跑了所以這樣對我們現在業者好不容易在辛苦培養的可能也會有壓力我們現在都是慢慢"},{"start":9847.063,"end":9872.598,"text":"他一下子不願意包租我們就鼓勵他從代管代管了兩三年問他願不願意調那有些就會願意調出來那我們在這樣的制度慢慢就成熟所以我會建議這個部分是不是這一次修法先不列那等我們時機慢慢能夠越來越穩健比較接近的時候再來那我們每年都可以提出這樣的一個相關的一個進度的報告給各位委員來做了解"},{"start":9877.999,"end":9879.661,"text":"謝謝國土署這邊的署長回應我們這不是輔導不輔導或者是說養育的問題是感覺是制度是制度把包租的跟代管是給一樣的好處一樣的管理"},{"start":9900.05,"end":9917.78,"text":"現在看起來是是我們等一下再去談的就是我們的稅務啦都一樣1.5所以呢市場當然是風險比較低我們就當然是代管比較好所以你們說就是彈性希望就是但是因為現在包租只佔32%"},{"start":9919.881,"end":9924.484,"text":"代表制度根本就是推不動嘛所以我們若是被拒絕也是常態啊所以包租的解方就是沒有目標就永遠就是也做不大嘛所以呢我們可以寫的目標分年達成不一定一次到位但方向一定要入法"},{"start":9942.596,"end":9946.88,"text":"不要說我們一直每次我們質詢也都是這麼說嘛所以現在我們是說沒有說要一次到位但是我們一定要有一個機制讓我們弱勢就是優先還有建立一些協助的機制你們來訂嘛我們沒有邀請說一次到位但是你們一定要讓"},{"start":9964.213,"end":9991.102,"text":"房東他們願意包租這樣子的話 讓真正的照顧到弱勢啦我們的目標是這樣 以上 謝謝其他委員有意見還是 蘇議員有意見我再做說明啦 其實第一個要跟各位說明啦其實我們對包租跟代管我們不管是提供相關的開發費包管費 煤合費通通都比代管"},{"start":9991.622,"end":10014.531,"text":"還要高現在真的單純是意願的問題啦單純是意願的問題那第二個我們連修繕補助也是比較高所以才會變成說我們是希望是說這過程的確慢慢要去讓房東卸下 主年卸下我們大概都是他可能代管個兩年接著我們的業者就會問他願不願意轉"},{"start":10016.041,"end":10040.669,"text":"因為他就是建立一個建立對政府的信任一個跟業者建立信任關係那他才會慢慢慢慢這樣把這個戶數調出來那其實擔心說一下把限制一定要這樣的時候一下要找到那麼多的的這個包租真的很難這樣反而你降低了貸款那其實變成說總戶數會一起降下來其實這樣可能兩邊不是很好的處理"},{"start":10041.289,"end":10067.693,"text":"那至於就是說跟弱勢預儲的這個儲域的一個協助是不是當然現行已經有了現行本來就已經有了我們現在跟衛福部從從一開始的這個林口設宅的時候都已經有都已經有做這樣的協助那甚至後來把長照2.0 3.0的我們都列入跟業者的一個必要的一個協助項目所以做這樣的報告那今天衛福部是不是也有同仁過來來衛福部我們從說明下"},{"start":10075.18,"end":10092.708,"text":"謝謝跟委員報告的確我們現在內政部都已經按照我們住宅法的第33條在我們的社宅裡面都提供保留的社會福利設施那各縣市也都配合來推動目前都還可行以上報告感謝內政部跟衛福部的說明那拜委員這邊"},{"start":10101.69,"end":10121.871,"text":"我們是保留啦 我覺得是說差很大啦 妳說書記差在哪裡妳說代管差在哪裡 報住在哪裡 差在哪裡嘛所以因為很多人跟我們反映就是住不到房子 就是剩於說我們新住民他們去住還有帶著公公婆婆 他們就代管了就說這個"},{"start":10124.494,"end":10129.696,"text":"不給你所以我們遇到很多啦所以我覺得就是包租的話就變成是他們是可以就是包租的管理的人他可以決定不是房東還有房東他們真的也是要去看人來租啊因為代管他也要看到他也要去做啊所以這個部分我們遇到很多啦所以才說這個是真的是有差異啦不是沒有差異"},{"start":10152.904,"end":10161.309,"text":"好 謝謝麥先生委員再次說明那這條確實都還是有各自的意見所以我們是不是也就保留繼續往下一條繼續前進好 下一條22條22條22條"},{"start":10175.636,"end":10184.138,"text":"好 喬惠文沒提民眾黨有民眾黨有沒有民眾黨沒有如果沒有的話我們就繼續下一個23條23條好就是"},{"start":10204.981,"end":10209.283,"text":"請問財政委員23條23條這邊我們民眾黨這邊要說明包租現在吸引力不夠因為跟上面一樣剛才就是說了房東覺得就是租的租期長還有麻煩多多跑去做代管導致包租只佔32%我們堅持把包租的免稅額提高到每月3萬"},{"start":10232.873,"end":10236.756,"text":"代管的是1.5萬這樣的房東會覺得會划算會合啦願意把房子拿出來租給弱勢我們內政部這邊有說1.5萬稅就夠了但是57%的包租房子的租金超過"},{"start":10253.451,"end":10256.333,"text":"免稅額 房東要多繳稅當然不愛包租所以修法紮高免稅額也能讓更多的房東加入穩定就是肉市的租屋這個是我們希望就是我們的內政部這邊就是認同我們的版本以上 謝謝"},{"start":10285.922,"end":10287.227,"text":"那個財政部說明一下"},{"start":10290.965,"end":10315.058,"text":"承振部報告因為當初是認為說不管公益出租人或者是包租代管其實它的公益性都很高所以是給予相同的額度那這邊如果包租的額度比較高的話那不曉得會不會有一個示範效果認為包租可以租租金可以高一點因為房東可以免稅額度高一點就不曉得會不會有這種因為它的差異性那這個我們要考量"},{"start":10315.638,"end":10331.181,"text":"那還有剛剛我們是說那房客他的免稅額度也只有一個月1.5萬那房東他的免稅額度就高於房客這個也有這個這個這個公平性的顧慮啦那這個部分是不是建議說因為我們剛剛在"},{"start":10332.802,"end":10357.881,"text":"19条公益出租人的那个免税额度已经有说附带决议有主管机关就是我们定期滚动来检讨那是不是这一条也可以并那个19条一样都是免税额度那是不是整体再来评估这样子因为这整个都是整个设宅的政策的一环那是不是说整体再来评估是不是要有差别的免税额度还是说"},{"start":10358.861,"end":10365.148,"text":"還是說免稅額度要不要隨著時間再來定期滾動檢討的問題是謝謝財政部的回應 談判委員"},{"start":10374.285,"end":10386.61,"text":"我們是免稅不是給房東的福利是給我們就是要用包租的能量就是讓弱勢租得到房我們希望的是這樣所以我們希望是說這邊的稅金跟剛才講的那個是應該是不一樣啦不一樣 所以我們是希望說把"},{"start":10398.776,"end":10411.905,"text":"可限制說你可以可以就是定制說包租且轉租弱勢可以把這個文字也可以放進來才適用所以要提高"},{"start":10413.752,"end":10429.771,"text":"真的那個誘因啦 如果是稅比較這樣子高的話真的那個報租才會真正的提高為什麼我實際堅持這樣子的一個很多我們租房子"},{"start":10430.572,"end":10455.985,"text":"房東就是不願意讓我們去登記戶頭因為他們會稅比較高所以我們是為什麼要用這樣子的他們就會願意因為有很多新住民他們離婚了他們沒有戶籍他們要去租房子的部分所以房東都說如果你要登記戶籍"},{"start":10457.608,"end":10480.148,"text":"我就不給你住所以變成他要稅要提高所以我們如果用這樣子的包租要給他們免這樣的稅給他就是說這樣他們就會願意讓別人在一起管別人這樣子的話才能達到我們的精神希望就是包租提高啦"},{"start":10481.967,"end":10502.358,"text":"只要直接講的我之前就有租過 我知道了因為我為止就是單親所以我就 我都租過我也很多新住民有這樣子租過所以我真的是我親身體驗的所以我才會提出說這個是有必要"},{"start":10503.218,"end":10525.339,"text":"這樣子來去限制還有要求這個房東他們真的是願意每次提出來只要登記戶籍房東就會有這樣的問題所以我們是包租如果是來做包租比較高的話這樣子的話房東很願意給別人再去租還可以登戶籍這樣子這個就是我們的說明還需求 謝謝"},{"start":10530.095,"end":10533.458,"text":"謝謝麥正偉的補充說明那這邊我想補充說明這個財政部再說明一下這個就是給房東的租稅優惠啦那就是"},{"start":10545.467,"end":10566.51,"text":"这是给房租租金那我们是说因为这个整个整个包租贷款这整个租税是不是整体考量因为现在要把这个做差异化的免税额度是不是在住宅政策上是否妥适那会不会让人家觉得说包租的房东租金就可以设的高一点这样子"},{"start":10567.732,"end":10577.48,"text":"對 那所以我們是建議說是不是併食9條就是全部都是針對於房東的免稅額度的部分併食9條就是在有主管機關定期來檢討 滾動檢討這樣"},{"start":10583.016,"end":10594.922,"text":"謝謝陳正波這邊的再說明我想這個是不是就照併到我們19條一起來討論因為都是相類似的東西1919-119-1的部分我想說直幾條不一樣這都類似的東西是不是我們就併在一起再來討論"},{"start":10603.737,"end":10618.691,"text":"好 所以我們先保留因為我們真的是要有很大的誘引才能真正的提高啦不然也沒辦法提高啊沒有辦法提高就沒有辦法提高好 那我們這條保留啦畢竟到15條來一起討論15條"},{"start":10626.338,"end":10652.927,"text":"就是用附帶決議處理19也是啊也是都是啊因為剛才劉許廷講那個三個房子太快的啊因為15是講稅嘛19是講包租包租的我們就併到相我們就併到相關的一起來討論的好不好那這邊補充宣告我們第22條因為我們不擔負於採納維持現行條文那好接下來下一個"},{"start":10654.676,"end":10659.879,"text":"24條24條不在我們不予審議我們繼續維持維持現行條文我們繼續25條25條我們這邊請民眾黨說明提案說明"},{"start":10678.464,"end":10686.71,"text":"好谢谢主席我们在25条这边租债租金过去为明确的法治化确实引发争议因此才有修法的讨论不过目前中央已公告涉载分级租金的原则也明确纳入就是依家户所得分级的计算"},{"start":10708.455,"end":10725.443,"text":"但是這個就是可負擔的概念啦但是實際上已回到租宅法以照顧弱勢為核心的立法精神因此我們本條不再堅持入法處理後續可通過行政規則"},{"start":10726.683,"end":10747.654,"text":"持續檢討於今今即可避免重複立法會引發不必要的爭議這個就是我們民眾黨的說明 謝謝謝謝民眾黨這邊的提案說明所以這條二十五條我們就是維持現行條文那也依照他們的建議來內政部這邊主管機關來著辦"},{"start":10753.117,"end":10755.359,"text":"25條就不予修正ok那接下來我們第33條"},{"start":10768.01,"end":10791.456,"text":"不在不在 沒提好第三條不在我們現在維持現行條文34條34條也沒提那34條不在我們也維持現行的條文35條不在我們維持現行條文39條39條不在我們現在維持現行條文不修正第40條40條"},{"start":10801.727,"end":10818.933,"text":"我們第40條就是關於就是居住水準清查的確實重要但目前問題不在於就是有沒有修法而是在於就是基礎資料都還"},{"start":10820.413,"end":10827.061,"text":"沒有完整所以現在各縣市清查結果人未完全出爐所以中央也無法掌握全國的總量類型分布自租或租賃比率的關鍵數據在這個情況下直接入法要求"},{"start":10841.157,"end":10859.713,"text":"繼續改善的措施反而容易變成就是空轉因此我們本黨主張應先要求內政部完成資料重整與分析提出具體改善對策與政策工具後再來討論"},{"start":10861.695,"end":10866.5,"text":"是否以及如何修法在數據未明確之前先談修法好像容易就是形成就是修法的目標所以現在這個階段我們民眾黨就選擇就是不以貿然推動謝謝"},{"start":10882.776,"end":10905.109,"text":"好謝謝麥正委員的說明所以這個部分我們也就維持我們現行的條文那不予修正那接下來我們接下來是第43條43條就是好43條提案委員不知道我們維持現行的條文不予修正接下來第47條"},{"start":10908.93,"end":10909.651,"text":"第三事項來說明"},{"start":10924.315,"end":10950.818,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為那個租金統計的部分我們現在其實就每季會發布兩期每年會發布兩次那等於是每半年發布一次不過我們現在的部分的話是發布總價的一個中位數資料裡面還有加跟那個屋齡來做一個比對那現在委員修正的都是單價的部分那因為我們只有考量到幾個部分因為單價的部分我們現在租屋市場大家的考量是我的總價是多少是負擔多少"},{"start":10951.318,"end":10967.8,"text":"所以一般我們像租屋的行情或是現在在外面的一個平台其實都不會去揭露去分析那個單價的資料那第二個部分的話因為單價的部分因為每一個房每一個物件它的一個有沒有裝潢有沒有設備其實就會影響到它的價格"},{"start":10968.601,"end":10990.093,"text":"那如果一旦統計到單價可能就會有追價的一個影響價格的部分所以對於單價這幾個提案的話單價的資料的公佈的部分我們是會比較覺得 比較不宜因為可能會對於租屋市場會有一些影響那我們現在可能還是建議我們回來精進我們現在一個總價的一個計算方式的部分讓民眾更好參考好 謝謝市長的說明那白政委員"},{"start":10995.833,"end":11012.581,"text":"好謝謝主席我們民眾黨這邊有在有提這個所以租宅法是剛才你們有說在47條早就要求了但是政府應定期收集但是分析並沒有就是公佈租賃與買賣市場的共定"},{"start":11016.623,"end":11021.484,"text":"供給需求所以教育的價格但立法多年實際有沒有明顯就不足沒有落實所以直到113年8月我們內政部才建立一個就是租金統計資訊網的專區但目前公布的內容對政府政策判斷"},{"start":11040.208,"end":11061.722,"text":"也對租屋市場雙方幾乎就是沒有實質參考的價值特別是對政府已經投入大量預算的補助與包租代管的物件更是資訊不足 政府一年花了就是百億元來在租金補貼包租代管還有就是連補"},{"start":11066.085,"end":11086.184,"text":"補貼的物件的型態 屋齡單憑租金都不清楚這不只是無法檢驗的政策結果也無法協助租客避開黑市與不合理的租金因此本條主張不是增加負擔而是要求補貼相關物件"},{"start":11091.048,"end":11095.433,"text":"就是應優先完整 揭露關鍵租屋的信息讓市長透明 政策可檢驗剛才你有說 因為我們一年兩次但是我們現在不是增加你們的工作 是法律交代的事情"},{"start":11113.51,"end":11133.285,"text":"一直沒有做到還有說是分就是數位只能寫在報告豬就是沒有能看到的筆價還有壁壘嘛這信息所以是黑市還是存在這些是花政府的錢來去做這樣子的補貼市場但是政府就是最要有責任先透明還有不然的話補貼效果"},{"start":11141.051,"end":11143.454,"text":"都沒辦法去檢驗因為我們沒有看到所以政府補貼的就是說你們一定要會說你們補助這些錢你一定要去看說他們怎麼花合帳啊撥款啊說他們有沒有是有效果給你們你們才要給吧不能只是說我們有做兩次但是"},{"start":11161.454,"end":11173.104,"text":"沒辦法做到至少要把就是形態物理還有單品的租金或中威數寫進來這樣子的話的細節這樣子用我們的行政方法才能去補齊讓更多人知道說我們政府花錢要做這個但是沒有透明讓大家也找不到你們有沒有去真正的去管理所以我們是看到的問題是在這裡以上謝謝謝謝麥議貞委員"},{"start":11193.311,"end":11209.341,"text":"那47條基本上因為現在內政部也開始做了他當然比較粗略一點但總是好的開始那我覺得我大概看一下各委員提案版本其實也跟內政部現在做的並沒有差很多那就乾脆把它寫進去就單價的部分因為單價的部分現在我們都是用總價"},{"start":11211.103,"end":11234.199,"text":"因為大家的單價你講的單價意思是每坪平均數的意思是吧對每坪單價那文字上看看要怎麼來做修我覺得可以商量但我覺得當然啦這個就是透明化的程度到哪裡但我覺得也是要一步一步往前走包含怎麼樣去規範比如說包租代管等等先來做處理這些公益出租的人先來做一些揭露然後再來一步一步的去增進租屋市場透明我是覺得這次修法"},{"start":11234.739,"end":11254.701,"text":"租屋市場透明是非常非常重要的一個關鍵也是你後面租賃專法那邊有公信歷史關鍵所以我覺得這個條文是一定要做調整的那內容上怎麼來做修正大家可以再保留一點商量的空間以上跟委員說明一下委員剛才提到那個租金補貼的資料能不能做更好的運用我們現在每半年公佈一次就是用租金補貼的資料60幾萬筆的資料來做分析"},{"start":11257.543,"end":11281.331,"text":"這個跟委員報告一下而且現在學校的部分很多學校也反映大學生反映跟我們說那個東西對於他很有幫助這個部分先跟委員報告剛才劉委員有提到的話我們就把我們現行的做法就是有關於用租金補貼的資料做中位數相關的分析以達到租金的資訊的透明的部分我們把它改成文字的部分把它放進來"},{"start":11282.751,"end":11304.227,"text":"那可能那個包租代管的那一個資料跟租補的資料data其實不同的課程所以我們現在也有研究過我們現在是覺得你要研究就一起研究啦因為其實我們那時候租賃專法就有提嘛我們現在把我們現在做的部分就是要透明化嘛拿到文字裡面在這個說明之後我們這些提示也保留然後再做一個文字修正OK 我們接下來那五十五十二條"},{"start":11313.513,"end":11339.85,"text":"五十五十二跟二十三跟那個是一包的五十二也保留啦齁一起討論這保留OK然後增訂五張之一這個部分後面就沒了沒來沒來好那不予增訂五十二支五十二條之一這是誰"},{"start":11350.272,"end":11361.918,"text":"52之1沒有嗎 人不在 不予增訂好 53之1不在 那我們也不予增訂57之1"},{"start":11367.301,"end":11383.839,"text":"我們50要低那這個也一起保留來這跟第10條掛鉤的第10條如果要57就是罰則好不好一起保留一起保留OK好我們休息一下順便整理一下順便整理一下OK先休息"},{"start":11389.703,"end":11390.524,"text":"你們要接著再審嗎"},{"start":11404.36,"end":11424.83,"text":"我建議是這樣啦因為我們目標是這個位置要大一點那因為預期一定會有沒有公平的地方所以就要有我這樣點了以後 這些保障都錯了 都要回就競爭都錯了我們做法也是不像他們的意思你們覺得怎麼樣 再把握一下沒有沒有 今天沒有啊還有十個標文對阿 你現在對其他地料了嘛"},{"start":11433.619,"end":11462.806,"text":"現在剩下10秒如果要解鎖我們就直接送我們就送解鎖解鎖解鎖解鎖解鎖"},{"start":11485.039,"end":11487.601,"text":"你們再排一次,你們就再下個禮拜"},{"start":11489.478,"end":11498.541,"text":"我們回去整理再個別找委員討論一下下次來比較容易有共識學到協商 學到協商很多不能這麼細的討論啊"},{"start":11532.247,"end":11557.153,"text":"我沒有換白衣服好嗎 平常都穿著穿著戴好就好那你好 文字要完整啦不要錯過對啦欸 跟你有問題沒關係 找的找的心情多多白衣有辦法嗎 白衣有辦法嗎要先確認大家人事上沒有太大問題白衣有辦法嗎"},{"start":11559.28,"end":11583.67,"text":"本來禮拜一跟禮拜三是要一起開的"},{"start":11587.914,"end":11612.861,"text":"禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦"},{"start":11617.6,"end":11637.635,"text":"是不是春夏跟溝通如果可以說得好慢慢協商在這裡出委員會就好啊春十條你們有辦法溝通嗎"},{"start":11648.821,"end":11673.52,"text":"有一點偏執啦,偏執啦好啦,我是覺得,在這裡是他們現在藍白合作,跟他們講啊藍白合作,跟他們講,對北西海有利的看什麼人啊"},{"start":11677.965,"end":11691.596,"text":"現在他們有差不多兩三條他們那些不一樣他們那些是題材不一樣的根本不一致根本不一致我告訴你他要做什麼 我想說他先下去他們的問題先下去我們再說這樣好不好"},{"start":11708.24,"end":11712.621,"text":"我覺得這樣很快,不然你又要自己說,又要自己說,很惡劣。因為他們現在,他們有三個女孩,有五個男孩,"},{"start":11736.817,"end":11763.515,"text":"因為他們的事不一樣,他們去共同判斷。他們的事不一樣,他們去共同判斷。因為他們的事不一樣,他們去共同判斷。因為他們的事不一樣,他們去共同判斷。"},{"start":11767.538,"end":11772.143,"text":"這麼多錢,他們不敢來聽,拜託別這樣"},{"start":11786.834,"end":11813.791,"text":"那個不斷說是說他們沒錢的,他們不懂法的,才能夠擺明正常的,才可以服役的,公共的,就不用一個月啊。"},{"start":11820.589,"end":11846.917,"text":"我說他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵"},{"start":11848.558,"end":11871.675,"text":"我們黃柵就是大家有問題可以跟他溝通的對啊"},{"start":11872.255,"end":11883.861,"text":"我那邊去討論了,我不是去洗手間啊,對啦,這樣,你如果說不去討論,就不用等一個月啦,不要煩惱啦。"},{"start":11900.55,"end":11912.496,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":11924.667,"end":11934.485,"text":"谢谢大家谢谢"},{"start":11964.515,"end":11992.102,"text":"對啊,他很想回去啊你叫啦"},{"start":11992.811,"end":12002.678,"text":"趕快去趟廁所啦,去到客廳吃菜啦,不然咱的鼻子會忘記啦,你趕快去,我那邊不想去啦,拜託啦。"},{"start":12029.162,"end":12038.829,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12055.794,"end":12078.114,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12085.081,"end":12085.101,"text":"我..."},{"start":12120.251,"end":12139.766,"text":"對 對 對 還好 是海賊"},{"start":12161.323,"end":12180.35,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12187.849,"end":12203.521,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12228.024,"end":12243.197,"text":"好我們現在已經究竟這個各位我們現在已經接近中午時間我們先休息那午餐過後我們下午兩點半繼續開會那請那個國務組這邊資料先整理一下繼續整理"},{"start":12250.835,"end":12266.668,"text":"張維林不要下下禮拜協商就直接送了不用一個月兩棟起嗎對啊 我們不會為難啦因為他沒有辦法去整理啦"},{"start":12305.118,"end":12308.06,"text":"沒有啦 參雙節也有這年最大"},{"start":12316.178,"end":12344.558,"text":"他沒有公司怎麼辦他在這裡討論會比協商還好嗎那他們就說讓他們一個時間討論但是現在就是說他回去下一個回去落一個"},{"start":12346.778,"end":12347.4,"text":"對啦,都下來了"},{"start":12379.514,"end":12398.288,"text":"你們都在這裡 都不可能說人家的完美完結不要說了 說到結束了都不能參詳 不能協調一下有這麼多人都有意見就不行了"},{"start":12405.915,"end":12425.732,"text":"大家都可以說一聲 氣氛要改善可以討論的東西 大家都要拼了知道到現在 我們真的都沒有對被審好 對做主的人好 控訴的人也好"},{"start":12430.714,"end":12431.114,"text":"也就輸輪輸金"},{"start":12484.084,"end":12484.444,"text":"我們禮拜一"},{"start":12510.797,"end":12514.019,"text":"禮拜一"},{"start":12529.086,"end":12535.368,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12568.206,"end":12574.429,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12612.466,"end":12616.168,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12653.599,"end":12655.32,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12669.073,"end":12670.673,"text":"跟這邊說話 我還沒討論被寫了沒多討論"},{"start":12679.834,"end":12681.476,"text":"誒 五十二歲了 說好啊 八歲了"},{"start":12698.933,"end":12720.998,"text":"謝謝,謝謝。"},{"start":12742.776,"end":12746.519,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12757.066,"end":12778.734,"text":"我說後禮拜的都給他們啦,這樣就好了還要再加班啦,聖誕節最好的禮物啦明天再加班授錢給他了啦,下個禮拜一定換了啦沒有啦"},{"start":12786.084,"end":12791.745,"text":"他宣告啦因為下禮拜公關啦確定了啦下個禮拜都換了啦下個禮拜"},{"start":12816.916,"end":12816.936,"text":"好嗎?"},{"start":12839.151,"end":12852.882,"text":"主席重新宣告討論事項所列議案軍令12月29日星期一繼續審查那本次的會議到此結束我們現在散會"},{"start":12875.029,"end":12883.599,"text":"我看他"},{"start":12904.358,"end":12924.398,"text":"你們禮拜一拜託 市長你們禮拜一拜託"},{"start":12933.763,"end":12936.507,"text":"谢谢观看"}]}},{"id":"166668","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166668","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d602f856301d59880e08f4e93bf07b6087f40144ed783f343309efc6948ee7c12d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"13:24:24 - 13:33:21","影片長度":"00:08:57","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T13:24:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T13:33:21+08:00","duration":537,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.75159375,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.995968750000001,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.34909375,"end":16.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.90596875,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.45159375,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.532218750000006,"end":85.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.82346875,"end":97.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.81846875000001,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.98284375,"end":92.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.22721875,"end":94.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.28596875000001,"end":96.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.88909375,"end":122.59409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.10784375,"end":102.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.59971875000001,"end":113.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.88096875000001,"end":124.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.45034375,"end":124.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.48409375000001,"end":124.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.88909375,"end":126.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.57659375000001,"end":127.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.62284375,"end":130.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.92221875,"end":130.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.96409375000002,"end":144.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.38846875000002,"end":142.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.54034375,"end":142.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.59909375,"end":154.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.44159375,"end":154.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.28534375,"end":155.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.88846875000002,"end":159.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.73596875,"end":203.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.49034375000002,"end":165.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.67971875,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.43471875,"end":170.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.65659375,"end":182.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.29346875000002,"end":183.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.17471875,"end":187.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.55409375000002,"end":190.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.85284375,"end":195.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.57721875000001,"end":203.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.67846875,"end":265.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.94284375,"end":213.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.80909375000002,"end":232.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.74909375000004,"end":275.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.80784375,"end":267.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.86596875000004,"end":273.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.21159375,"end":275.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.39721875000004,"end":295.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.37534375,"end":280.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.07096875,"end":284.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.76596875,"end":291.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.42784375,"end":300.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.59596875,"end":299.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.21596875,"end":322.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.32471875000005,"end":307.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.6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那部長還有一種狀況就是剛剛有委員也特別提到就是說他可能從年輕他就開始繳這個農保他就開始繳農保可是到他可能到60幾歲即將要開始領這個老農津貼的時候那這個土地"},{"start":222.148,"end":245.587,"text":"可能小孩或者是怎樣需要用錢還是就把土地給賣掉了那賣掉之後他就會變就只有加入這個國民年金就加入國保那他領的就是國民年金那因為最近因為我們一直在提到這個老農津貼可能會提高的這個問題所以基層有很多農民他們有碰到這樣的一個狀況那他是說可不可以他"},{"start":246.207,"end":261.134,"text":"可能他一輩子就是從農嘛那到了他即將可以領的時候這個土地就可能因為需要錢那可能就賣掉那有沒有可能朝著一個方向就是說他在這個按照他投保的這個比例年資比例"},{"start":261.634,"end":283.095,"text":"然後來領這個我們的老農津貼有沒有可能是這樣我也曾經想過這個問題但是限於現在的一個規定就是說當你要領老農津貼的65歲的時候會進行所有的查核嘛那查核就是你一定要有從事農業的行為才能夠去做可是當下你如果沒有農地就會被認為沒有從事農業的行為"},{"start":284.916,"end":300.781,"text":"至於說往前追的部分就是說他符合資格的那段時間是不是可以去做情領以現在的法規是沒有辦法做的有沒有可能朝著這個方向去做一個討論然後未來是可以的"},{"start":301.902,"end":321.821,"text":"這個我想我們內部針對老農經濟這個部分這牽涉到也牽涉到農保的資格我們可以來做一個專案的一個評估但是在評估過程中我們也會去了解其他的八大社福基金的設計因為牽涉到很多社會福利制度本身的橫平性的部分我想我們可以來看看後面怎麼去處理"},{"start":322.822,"end":345.636,"text":"那另外就是說你們到即將要開始可以清理這個腦農津貼的時候你們差不多是63歲差不多63歲左右就會開始做清查嘛對不對本來是64歲的時候那我那時候交代同仁說應該更早我們不是清查就是去檢視那如果農民沒有合格的時候趕快去等相關的資料"},{"start":346.996,"end":360.708,"text":"所以我希望就是說這個是不是可以再提早就有的農民他真的他根本也不知道可是他可能也搞不清楚可是等他農會跟他通知他沒有資格的時候他就很慘了不過我本來是希望說提到60歲同仁跟我講"},{"start":366.96,"end":388.051,"text":"有些农民就是你查过了以后他又卖掉了或什么的会被人多次的查核但是我从鼓励的角度去检视协助他们以协助他们检视的部分可以再往前可以再往前去看看没有如果不符合资格赶快去调整我想我们还是以照顾农民的一个心态去处理"},{"start":388.251,"end":409.91,"text":"所以我是覺得應該再往前再去做一個查核要不然等他即將要領的時候然後是沒有資格我們不要用查核啦因為查核就要處理啦我們是用協助他去檢視他有沒有符合這個資格如果不符合資格哪一些該改正的所以你們現在是請農會就是請農會協助嘛那如果時間再往前提的話會有什麼樣的困難嗎我想"},{"start":415.094,"end":435.596,"text":"困難是沒有啦只是說怕他們查完了以後農民又不知道又變成違規的怕因為時間拉太長的時候他們馬上又有違規的所以這個部分我想我們後續會再跟農會討論一下我們把這個協助他檢核的這個時間點可以往前然後也要告訴農民"},{"start":436.436,"end":457.194,"text":"部長我一個建議就是說剛剛講的也許在60歲左右你們可以先請農會這邊協助請農民自己檢視一下是不是他是不是有符合資格那如果沒有符合資格的話實際上他確實也是從農我們現在不是也可以他去承租"},{"start":457.674,"end":477.77,"text":"土地 農地然後就是只要有證明實際耕作就可以嘛對不對所以我是覺得說也許就剛剛部長講的從60歲的時候可以我們先第一次的去做一個檢視那也許再到了64歲的時候我已經60歲已經跟你講過了你就是要有資格嘛你到64歲你又沒資格那就抱歉了"},{"start":483.094,"end":503.128,"text":"我想認同委員的這樣一個建議我們可以更提前的去協助農民來檢視那這個部分我想我們後續要看怎麼規劃再跟委員報告所以我今天兩個重點一個就是把農民的資格是不是可以再往前另外就是說如果他一直從以前到62歲63歲都是從農那可能"},{"start":507.731,"end":532.589,"text":"需要這個錢然後就土地就沒了那這樣可能這個資格就不見了那其實是不是有可能把它原本它有投保的這個部分也可以這個按照比例可以計算下去我是覺得這個是不是可以我剛才說的就是說我們會來去討論它的一個法制上面還有它現在的司法性會去做一個規劃規劃或討論然後再把結果跟委員報告好 謝謝好 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我們現在開會請議事人員宣讀上一次的會議議事錄"},{"start":1344.062,"end":1364.916,"text":"立法院第11屆第四會期外交及國防委員會第22次群體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年12月17日星期三上午9時至13時13分地點紅樓301會議室出席委員黃仁等11人列席委員賴世保等10人列席人員國家安全局局長蔡明彥及所屬人員"},{"start":1365.874,"end":1387.11,"text":"國防部部長顧立雄及所屬人員、主席、馬州級委員文君報告事項一宣讀上次會議思路決定確定二、邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、國防部部長顧立雄報告台海與周邊潛在軍事衝突熱點情勢分析與國軍戰備應備整備情形並備質詢國家安全局局長蔡明彥"},{"start":1387.99,"end":1413.304,"text":"國防部部長顧立雄作戰及計畫參謀次長是次長連志威報告委員羅美玲等16人質詢軍有國家安全局局長蔡明彥國防部部長顧立雄主計局局長謝啟賢通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長謝俊山海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮及國家中生科學研究院院長李士強等即席答覆決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束"},{"start":1415.485,"end":1431.174,"text":"二委員黃仁所提書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報三委員所提書面及口頭諮詢未及答覆或要求提供之資訊請相關機關與二周內已書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從期鎖定通過臨時提案二案宣讀完畢因為在場人數還不足好我們議事錄待會再來確定先請議事人員宣讀今天的報告事項"},{"start":1441.104,"end":1469.818,"text":"報告事項 邀請國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會報告退輔會首屬農場經營策略與產品行銷推廣精進作為並被質詢 宣讀完畢好 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我們台北榮總院長陳維銘台中榮總院長傅雲慶高榮總院的院長陳金順屏隆總院的王瑞祥院長榮民榮眷基金會秘書長李世國"},{"start":1605.819,"end":1611.964,"text":"清境農場廠長王仁柱福壽山農場廠長林齊輝武陵農場廠長陳順如彰化農場廠長胡發濤台東農場廠長高國書"},{"start":1629.984,"end":1658.081,"text":"我們今天要進行的專報是退府會所屬農場經營策略與產品行銷推廣精進作為今天訂這個專報主要是我們的農場其實都很認真在經營但是績效如何我們委員會想要了解這個是屬於監督的部分另外一方面我們在坊間也常看到我們各農場推出的產品確實頗受好評透過你們今天的業務報告"},{"start":1659.182,"end":1683.891,"text":"也讓本會的立委同仁還有透過媒體好友能夠讓在歲末年終的時候讓我們的消費者了解我們退府會相關農場的產品有哪一些不錯的東西可以讓納稅人了解我們在做什麼也可以讓消費者知道我們有什麼這是今天專報的目的所以待會除了我們副主委專報以外也會留時間給各位廠長"},{"start":1685.171,"end":1713.086,"text":"好好專報當然我們這是立法院直播沒辦法像那個線上採購一樣還會這邊加一加一我們沒辦法但是請各位待會好好報告你們相關的業務跟產品內容如果在歲月年中對消費者有什麼好的打折優惠待會請一併報告我們現場有很多媒體同仁媒體朋友嗷嗷待哺希望你們好好再做一下說明好我們現在請副主委副政城上台進行專報"},{"start":1725.615,"end":1736.821,"text":"主席 各位委員 先進 大家好感謝大院邀請本會報告退虎會所屬農場經營車類與產品行銷推廣精進作為承蒙各位委員先進對與本會所屬農場經營之指導與支持謹誌最誠摯之敬意與謝誠"},{"start":1748.607,"end":1768.455,"text":"本會首屬農場有武陵、清淨、福壽山等三所高山農場及彰化、台東兩所平地農場,系為國軍退出役官兵、安置基金、預算單位,以觀光旅宿、農業生產與土地委託經營為主要業務。"},{"start":1770.987,"end":1794.838,"text":"各農場透過自營或與委營廠商合作持續開發具在地特色之農特產品至今 山高山農場已成為國內著名之觀光及生態旅遊場所提供遊客友善永續之旅遊環境與品質優良之農特產品"},{"start":1795.618,"end":1803.264,"text":"接續由本會事業管理處董處長為各位委員報告農場經營策略與進行作為主席各位委員先進大家好事業管理處長董兆明報告目錄及前言等事項予續報告"},{"start":1819.568,"end":1846.29,"text":"一 前言本會議國經退除一官兵福島條例福島退除一官兵從事農業產銷並推展觀光遊戲事業而設立農場開創之初以安置福島退除一官兵從事農林漁業生產以改善取等生活因應經濟快速發展生活方式轉變國內旅遊市場需求及維護自然資源農場逐步朝向多元化經營以達永續目標"},{"start":1848.191,"end":1876.621,"text":"本會所屬農場為安置基因下財務獨立自負盈虧之單位除執行觀光旅遊與農業生產業務外透過自行開發與廠商合作持續開發豐富具在地特色之農特產品並配合本會所屬機構相關活動及國內旅展進行展售予以勝於益助本會安置基金作為輔導退除役官兵就學就業所需經費服務退除役官兵"},{"start":1877.461,"end":1895.928,"text":"二 農業經營及推廣策略五零 清淨 福州山 三所高山農場以自營為主要經營模式朝發展觀光遊戲事業 並維護生態保育努力農業則採有善環境方式運作為提高土地利用 引進民間資源 辦理委託經營 增加農場收益"},{"start":1899.989,"end":1915.72,"text":"台東與彰化兩所平地農場儘管土地分散於東西半部以永續經營為目標配合在地特性及市場需求拓展土地多元化利用或鼓勵友善耕作提升土地價值"},{"start":1916.741,"end":1934.554,"text":"山高山農場群山環抱 視野遼闊 四季景緻各具風貌以為我國重要的生態旅遊場所然近期因疫情後 國人旅遊型態轉變國旅觀光旅遊人數呈現下滑113年 114年 能夠吸引約120萬人次到訪為活絡國內旅遊市場動能及提升農場整體效益各農場經營及推廣策略 說明如後"},{"start":1945.842,"end":1965.936,"text":"一 推广优质活动积极行销 多元行销为推广三高山农场自由系活动本会结合各项特色活动并透过多元管道强化行销提升整体旅游吸引力就国内外行销 官方推广以及农场特色文宣等说明如下"},{"start":1967.203,"end":1994.614,"text":"國務一國內行銷各農場參與北中南地區旅展及ITF台北國際旅展全面行銷油氣資源及農特產品其中ITF台北國際旅展國人探索增量增加營業額較去年成長4倍令農場意拜會旅行業者學校及機關團體洽談合作拓展團體與多元族群客源提升旅遊量能國務二"},{"start":1995.729,"end":2013.818,"text":"國外行銷 依觀光組推動深化日韓及拓展東南亞市場計畫本會配合參與觀光組組團赴新加坡、馬來西亞、泰國及韓國參加國際旅展共同行銷我國高山農場特色提升國際旅遊市場能見度"},{"start":2015.964,"end":2036.637,"text":"觀光推廣本會三高山農場及台東農場中年別館今年參加觀光署第二屆觀光亮點獎皆入選台灣觀光100亮點並分別榮獲最佳人氣獎、十大觀光亮點及最佳國旅創新獎等顯示國人對本會各農場具高度認同與支持"},{"start":2037.498,"end":2050.517,"text":"二 近兩年受疫情後旅遊型態轉變及地震 極端氣候影響國內山林旅遊人次明顯下滑山高山農場為提振旅遊推出多項優質主題活動如下"},{"start":2051.994,"end":2076.567,"text":"光屋一 武嶺農場 既有高山音樂會 櫻花器 以日花農採菊樂等光屋二 清淨農場 既有 奔陽節 雲林奔陽會 牧羊人體驗 高山電影院等光屋三 福壽山農場 既有 千英圓櫻花器 星空導覽夏樂 高山福壽有義式 福壽山莊啟用 並結合梨山 耶穌堂 公益 耶誕晚會等"},{"start":2077.347,"end":2094.485,"text":"三 為維持農場曝光與話題熱度本會跨域合作規劃多元宣傳活動分別與101大樓經營團隊合作與89樓舉辦高山農場雲端四季特展東森新聞氣象主播王竹立小姐於福山農場楓葉季期間播報氣象"},{"start":2097.048,"end":2108.068,"text":"台南石鼓集樂團赴最高海拔露營區演出並配合旅行社、媒體及記者進行採線訪問增加農場亮點深度提升旅遊吸引力"},{"start":2109.201,"end":2138.521,"text":"四、為感念現役軍人保家衛國之奉獻以及本會所屬員工與醫護人員長期照顧農民之辛勞推出軍人及軍校生及會屬員工比照農民之優惠方案並對軍人、農民、本會各級農民醫院及農家醫師、護理師與技術人員等分別於軍人節、農民節、醫師節及國際護師節前一日提供入住客房免費等多項優惠措施"},{"start":2139.601,"end":2158.55,"text":"關五是農場特色文宣品邀請著名攝影師拍攝農場雲海花海生態等獨有景色印製農場特色閱歷114年閱歷主題沐浴農林農獲網路聲量十大自然生態系閱歷第三名提高農場四季風貌能見度"},{"start":2160.287,"end":2186.083,"text":"二 引進民間資源提升服務量能為汲取民間企業經營管理職能創意及資源提升農場觀光油氣服務品質本會一 促進民間參與公共建設法與民間合作經營觀光旅宿及油氣場所旅業階段四案 招商階段兩案 說明如下公務一 旅業階段五里農場第二賓館七蘭及民慈森林遊樂區"},{"start":2187.509,"end":2205.928,"text":"宜蘭站農民文化暨觀光遊戲興建及彰化農場淡水度假休閒旅館等四項其中宜蘭站促餐案表現卓越獲財政部頒發招商特別獎名餐卓越獎促餐卓越獎及簽約獎勵金等四項大獎"},{"start":2206.969,"end":2234.299,"text":"官務二招商階段武嶺農場西蘭及民慈森林遊樂區OT案於114年12月18日完成評審會議並選出最優申請人預計115年2月下行簽約彰化農場嘉義分廠ROT案因應地方需求朝觀光發展辦理公告招商預計115年1月22日截止收件公告期間持續積極邀商"},{"start":2236.294,"end":2251.902,"text":"三 推動友善農業 提高土地利用為改良生產 提高土地利用效率農場辦理土地委託經營 增加收益有機種植面積逐年成長截至114年11月底委託經營共計2,306案總面積共計2,905公頃委託權利金收入共計1億5千餘萬元其中1,179公頃為有機種植較110年成長136%"},{"start":2266.17,"end":2288.566,"text":"四 強化對外合作 推廣產品行銷 為增加農業生產效益及收益農場依環境條件 製產農特產品 並與廠商開發合作商品及聯名商品除以各農場販售及網路行銷外 亦配合本會所屬單位活動期間辦理產品展售 增加收益 產品開發說明如下"},{"start":2290.563,"end":2313.861,"text":"自產農特產品高山農場位處海拔1750公尺以上地區因應氣候特性種植高山茶葉及溫帶水果以增加收益及產品豐富度持續開發相關產品依武陵農場既有長青茶長紅茶桃蘋果近年亦推出君仙青糖茶杭菊冰淇淋等產品因君仙茶糖"},{"start":2315.102,"end":2323.167,"text":"熱銷工筆硬球 114年新增長紅茶糖產品二 清櫻農場既有蘇霧茶 綠櫻紅茶 奇異果114年新增綠櫻紅茶 綠掛茶包金圈烏龍茶 綠掛茶包等兩項產品"},{"start":2330.231,"end":2349.62,"text":"三 福州山農場具有烏龍 鐵觀音 五一 蘋果 桃 梨 奇異果 西瓜梨114年新增紅茶 水蜜桃康普茶 茶酒 蘋果紅茶雞尾酒 蜜桃烏龍雞尾酒 西瓜梨酒 西瓜梨醋 五一茶冰淇淋 油桃果乾等9項產品"},{"start":2351.633,"end":2370.979,"text":"關於二 合作開發商品一 彰化農場 系以土地委外經營為主 透過委營戶合作生產推出鳳梨 木瓜等國品與益生菌 鳳梨酥 潔性限定禮盒等產品114年新增堅果食品 鹽炒花生 帶殼花生 二代益生菌等四項產品"},{"start":2372.287,"end":2393.792,"text":"二 台東農場自營生產茶樹精油亦透過委營戶合作生產有機花園香米 原選在地農產品如銀川米 鹿河皂米 鹿河黑米 洛神花蜜餞 洛神花果醬汁等產品一百一十四年新增納木剝皮辣椒 蒲草原茶樹精油 境界黃霧茶樹 嘉士益等三項產品"},{"start":2394.952,"end":2407.566,"text":"三 青銀農場除自產農特產品外運用綿羊元素與廠商合作開發綿羊油保養品及羊乳相關產品114年新增羊鋪QQ可樂丸一項產品"},{"start":2409.195,"end":2433.043,"text":"光屋山聯名商品114年世逢故宮博物院百年願慶本會與故宮跨界合作推出農場原選計畫結合五大農場特色產品進行品牌授權推出茶倉 茶堂 米底盒 肉鬆 冷凍 紅燒肉清潔用品 保養品 香檳片等共22項聯名商品"},{"start":2433.723,"end":2446.631,"text":"故宮於12月24日歲末媒體查序中展示本會農場原選商品並以彰化農場肉鬆作為伴手禮之一有助農場產品曝光度與品牌價值五 精進農場設施"},{"start":2448.393,"end":2473.485,"text":"提升遊戲品質為優化遊戲設施環境提升旅遊服務品質三高山農場近年投入近10億元辦理客房整修遊戲設施更新 環境優化重要成果如下關五一武陵農場 既有第二賓館及風鈴木屋整修錄影器環境及設施修繕關五二青陰農場 既有青陰草原遊客中心外牆馬術秀場場地"},{"start":2476.616,"end":2486.881,"text":"牧區圍籬及關山牧區公廁整修關武山福州山農場具有新建國民賓館重莊及豐林雅圖客房整修福州山莊運營區環境優化"},{"start":2490.011,"end":2511.299,"text":"3.工作展望及精進作為農場今年雖受疫情後旅遊型態轉變以及地震、極端氣候等因素影響國內旅客人數逐年減少未來能持續透過跨域合作推動觀光旅遊並陸續開發生態資源及農特產品增加收益工作展望及精進作為說明如下"},{"start":2512.119,"end":2534.112,"text":"一 拓展多元觀光發展 優化遊戲品質服務 為強化農場整體觀光行銷成效本會致國內外市場同步著手 透過旅展參與 跨域合作 遊程開發及品牌形象構建等多項策略全面提升農場能見度與市場競爭力 相關重點工作如下國澳一國內行銷"},{"start":2535.393,"end":2550.994,"text":"除持續參與北、中、南地區旅展及ITF台灣國際旅展外現積極辦理與跨域業者洽談合作推出套裝形成與特色商品增加農場新亮點提升行銷效益與營收成果"},{"start":2552.075,"end":2572.689,"text":"國務二 國外行銷115年配合觀光組組團計畫赴新加坡、馬來西亞、泰國、韓國等地參加國際旅展同時拜會當地旅行業者洽談合作結合國內旅行社推出套裝遊程提升旅遊便利與可及性以擴大境外客源市場"},{"start":2573.834,"end":2586.915,"text":"福澳五山觀光推廣一與熊市旅行社合作高山農場旅遊行程於115年第一季推出武陵福壽山農場三天兩夜五福陵門套裝遊程包含入住全新升級的雙農場賓館與"},{"start":2589.218,"end":2605.01,"text":"深境之旅串聯森林療癒結合高山茶品名及在地食材料理及高山觀新提供優質山林旅遊體驗後續將納入青藝農場共同推廣強化行銷退伍會觀光圈 人體品牌"},{"start":2605.771,"end":2631.105,"text":"二 為生化旅客對農場品牌記憶 三高山農場於115年持續推出優質的主體活動如後 光午一 五體農場 既有高山音樂會 美好旋律音樂會 櫻花季 油鹽巴士生態導覽採行局體驗等 光午二 青藝農場 既有元旦生儀典禮 奔陽節 河灣山杜鵑季 牧羊人體驗 高山電影院 雲林奔陽會等"},{"start":2632.779,"end":2660.785,"text":"關五三福州山農場既有千英園櫻花季千英園野餐與品名體驗矢谷菊樂團表演豐平季品名及關心導覽等二強化公司協力合作串聯資源帶動發展本會將持續推動各農場畜産作業藉由招商引資設施整建與區域合作強化遊戲功能並提升整體觀光量能重點工作如下關五一宜蘭站"},{"start":2662.541,"end":2677.237,"text":"農民文化暨觀光遊戲興建出產案分兩階段開發場域廠商預計投入143億元第一階段預計118年10月完成全國首座以農民文化為主題的農民文化館及國際觀光"},{"start":2678.778,"end":2695.24,"text":"飯店第二階段以健康台灣示範園區為發展主軸推動智慧醫療及健康休閒服務預計123年完成目前各項執行進度依規劃期程推動本會持續落實履約管理確保計畫如期如質完成"},{"start":2696.401,"end":2709.17,"text":"關五二武林七蘭及明池遊樂區出產案115年執行新規約後將進行旅住及步道遊戲設施整建以提供國人更優質煥然一新的環境教育局"},{"start":2710.236,"end":2725.904,"text":"旅遊景點 高五山彰化農場嘉義分廠出產案預計115年完成委外經營後續以觀光為主 農業為輔經營模式推動發展即結合經濟部與嘉義縣政府推動大埔藍色公路油氣廊帶計畫串聯周邊景點帶動區域觀光量能與產業火化"},{"start":2730.686,"end":2748.696,"text":"三 加強土地利用規劃深化農作產品質量為提升土地利用效能農場更需落實委營案履約管理並依土地使用規範妥適規劃新增委託經營案件涉及委營經營效益者訂定全棟便利金集聚增加農場收益為維護農場農作產品"},{"start":2752.333,"end":2778.108,"text":"產量及品質 除持續改良農業生產環境依環境條件 置地 市作外並持續開發合作商品或聯名商品建立退伍會農場品牌形象 增加收益四 佔用生態環境資源 孵育高端稀有物種農業部野生動物保護法公告將台灣寬緯鳳蝶列入保育類動物名錄中名列第一級平均絕種"},{"start":2779.588,"end":2796.768,"text":"野生動物本會武林農場為其棲息環境之一後續為孵育平民絕種生物武林農場並與雪壩國家公園合作種植茶樹以利寬圍鳳蝶棲息共生藉開發高山農場生態資源增加休息觀光誘因五"},{"start":2798.414,"end":2818.822,"text":"優化農場場域設施提升安全服務品質為提升遊戲服務品質與場域設施安全持續辦理客房整修及環境設施優化重要工作如下關五一武嶺農場具有國民賓館餐廳增建步道系統改善關五二青藝農場具有國民賓館第二期整修"},{"start":2819.864,"end":2843.955,"text":"草原木棧道及木區圍籬修站、光湖山、福州山農場暨有自查場興建、中爐客房整修、旅遊服務中心迎賓區域改善4、節雨本會首組農場雖受疫情後國旅型態改變地震、強降雨及颱風天然災害等因素影響致國人多往國外旅遊及農產品產量減少能積極辦理觀光行銷與產品推廣"},{"start":2847.889,"end":2870.064,"text":"減低影響 展望未來各農場將持續配合觀光署政策深化國內外行銷佈局透過參與旅展 開發套裝旅遊遊程跨域合作 自營或外方式擴展產品項目並推動出攤案與設施改善提升遊戲品質 強化市場競爭力並吸引更多國內外旅客到訪"},{"start":2870.925,"end":2896.214,"text":"此外本會持續推動品牌生化與產品升級包括美系主題活動各農場與民間及故宮合作開發在地特色產品及聯名商品提升農場品牌辨識度與產品曝光度未來亦將強化營造友善永續的旅遊環境達到兼具自然協調生態保育與在地文化特色的觀光場域全面提升農場整體經營效能報告完畢恭請指導"},{"start":2898.081,"end":2926.284,"text":"我們另外也要請農場的廠長做一些報告那個陳冠廷委員剛到場我們今天請退府會相關的農場事業單位來做專報我們要看看營業績效的橫向比較年度比較強弱項還有需要精進的地方那因為你們有帶著產品來是不是廠長依序精簡時間來報告一下你們的產品如果你需要站在你們產品前面拿那個手持麥封也可以"},{"start":2927.441,"end":2931.722,"text":"前面有三位那個負責監督的委員拜爾好來請開始好周委好委員好那我是清淨農場廠長王仁柱那眾所周知清淨農場最主要的就是以這個綿羊為主那所以我們開發了很多的這個綿羊的一些"},{"start":2957.952,"end":2973.63,"text":"這個不管是玩具也好布偶也好然後這個小朋友都非常喜歡那我們有一個我們也自有農產品那就是我們的有機茶因為我們必須要把羊放進去裡面吃草所以這個"},{"start":2975.131,"end":3000.354,"text":"我们必须要是纯有机的所以我们的茶是非常安全的那我们也开发了相关的跟故宫合作开发了很多很多的像这个郁香膏等等那这些都是跟羊有关系的化妆品的或是保养品的一些系列的部分那也非常欢迎各位来这边那我们当也有一些"},{"start":3001.235,"end":3030.678,"text":"我們一些小零嘴那最主要就是讓很多的這個遊客到了農場的以後可以來享受除了非常美麗的風景以外那也可以滿足他在這個吃的上面的一些滿足以上報告謝謝大家請進嘛是可不可以各位也補充報告一下你們的定價策略或者主力商品的定價不是 定價策略因為我發現你們各農場的營收差異太大你們的定價策略"},{"start":3031.96,"end":3058.601,"text":"在我們的住宿裡面我們的定價策略是以平民化的部分所以我們兩人房大約會是在3300而已我們還會給青青草原的門票還會給小瑞士的門票還有天空步道的折價券在我們的相關的產品裡面因為"},{"start":3060.014,"end":3079.277,"text":"我們最主要的還是希望可以讓遊客能夠增加他的提待率所以我們的產品大約都會落在這個200塊到500塊之間那這樣子的話可以走向一個更多的平民化的部分好 OK 謝謝接下來是福壽山林祺輝林廠長"},{"start":3080.851,"end":3105.01,"text":"稍微好各位委員大家好我是福州山農場廠長林齊輝福州山農場的廠區位在海拔2200公尺到2600公尺之間是真正的高山農場我們的農場的農事產品主要有兩大類一個是茶葉一個是果樹之類的產品以下我先報告我們茶葉的部分我們茶葉福州山農場"},{"start":3105.791,"end":3131.806,"text":"最有名的就是福壽長春場的烏龍茶那我們除了烏龍以外還有觀音跟舞儀那為了提高口味我們還有再製作精緻的這個舞儀跟精緻的烏龍茶那另外在今年我們為了配合我們福壽山農場的特有飲茶文化我們在今年也結合我們福壽山農場的六大特色花系也就是蘋果花 梨花 櫻花"},{"start":3132.927,"end":3153.96,"text":"梅花還有秀球花還有魯冰花來製作茶具希望大家能夠用我們的茶具來喝我們的茶另外除了茶葉以外我們還會在製造過程當中一些茶末我們也拿來再去加工製作做成茶包做成"},{"start":3154.961,"end":3180.696,"text":"茶墨 冰淇淋這兩項產品都非常的促銷而且也限量因為有多少茶 多少茶墨它是定量的它不能夠無限地產另外我們福壽山的茶是一年兩期不像其他地區的茶有三期 甚至到四期東南亞還有五期的我們就只有兩期當然也可以概分為純茶跟冬茶但是我們原則上還是以一期茶跟二期茶為主但是我們今年為了"},{"start":3181.616,"end":3200.441,"text":"掌握跟觀察茶樹的生長我們會配合季節以及茶樹生長實際狀況採用適當的季節採用茶青來製作紅茶跟茶餅這樣能夠提高我們在茶樹的運用另外結合一般的消費產品我們也會製作"},{"start":3201.738,"end":3226.009,"text":"利用五一茶的茶末來製作一般口味的爆米花在茶類的產品最後要跟大家報告就是如同剛剛我們退伍會所報告的今年 明年我們預判推出一斤的跟故宮聯名的茶商來提高我們福壽山農場福壽長春茶的國際能見度以上是茶品的報告接著在果實的部分我們的果實主要有"},{"start":3227.029,"end":3252.568,"text":"蘋果 桃子 梨子 還有這個 猕猴桃那在這邊 我不多做一一介紹因為書面報告裡面很多那我們大概推出的產品有酒類系列 低濃度的水果酒系列果醋系列 還有果凍系列那另外當然 我們也結合我們的旅宿我們有利用我們的茶路來推出手工香皂 洗髮露跟液態皂等"},{"start":3253.688,"end":3278.849,"text":"這個個人清潔用品那最後按照召委所指示我們的定價策略我們一般的因為我們是真正的高山烏龍茶而且你這樣講旁邊四個都假的就對了不是 我們是真正的高山烏龍茶他們四個比我們低一點這樣子所以價格也比我們低一點我們的烏龍茶還有做產銷履歷也有做這個防偽標籤"},{"start":3280.543,"end":3293.958,"text":"我們價格最高一斤正常的烏龍茶我們賣八千那精緻烏龍茶賣一萬二我們的少量紅茶一萬四但是我們不會要大家一次買一斤我們有一兩樁 二兩樁"},{"start":3296.178,"end":3317.634,"text":"我們是小部分裝那促銷策略如果各位到福州山農場親自來買我們的這個茶葉的話我們會提供相關的促銷活動但是在這邊因為沒有公告我就不方便多大說明只能跟大家報告來一定會有折價那也會有一次購買比較量多的話我們會有這個產品的促銷那最後報告我們福州山農場"},{"start":3318.655,"end":3335.451,"text":"有全新的國民賓館 風鈴雅筑還有這個宋莊等新的旅宿大樓希望所有的來賓 委員跟召委能夠帶對來那最後我要推銷的是這一款你們住宿的定價多少後面會報告"},{"start":3339.161,"end":3365.772,"text":"喝不起茶葉沒有關係但是我們可以喝茶包這個茶包真的是茶莫做出來的或許不耐泡但是香氣非常足而且今年已經賣完了那我們的現在策略我們一般的兩人房定價六千但是榮民我們可以打五折那平日打六折那目前我們這個一般旅客是打八折那價值的話是榮民八折那我們目前也在跟會裡面協調針對明年的國旅的策略會"},{"start":3366.992,"end":3389.535,"text":"稍微在平價值的部分會做一些放寬的建議後續希望大家都能夠支持我們國內的農場旅遊 謝謝好 謝謝林廠長你的意思就是陳永康去就是三千塊那陳柏楊去就四千八嘛沒有好 OK不然這個嘉惠因為我們是退府會嘉惠農民是應該的好 接下來下一位我們請武林農場陳順如"},{"start":3391.843,"end":3412.895,"text":"早委各位好我是武林農場廠長陳順如接著就我們農場的產品區分兩個部分一個是農產品的部分待會針對住宿的部分區分兩個部分來實施報告在農產品的部分武林農場是位在雪巴國家公園裡面所以我們相關的農產品除了依照農業部的規定之外必須要有相關的產銷履歷以及送SGS檢驗之外我們所有的產品"},{"start":3414.716,"end":3429.308,"text":"都是無檢出那因為我在學霸會裡面所以我相關的養殖或是種植還要受到國家供應法的規定所以我們的產品都是沒有問題的這邊要先跟召委及各位委員做報告那我們產品的話主要也是以茶類為主我們茶區分兩種種植兩種茶一個是"},{"start":3431.69,"end":3447.885,"text":"金萱茶金萱就是所謂的柴塔12號以及我的烏龍茶也就是清新烏龍茶那在這兩個茶的部分來講我們也另外開發了所謂的清新烏龍跟烏龍紅茶這兩個部分那我們的農場高度就像剛才學長講我們是兄弟廠它2200"},{"start":3449.566,"end":3474.976,"text":"一千七到兩千一兄弟茶不要隨便用這個名詞是專有名詞謝謝召委提醒因為在農場的話我們今年的高山行渠產出產量非常的好因為今年的苗種跟土地有做調整的話今年的行渠品質非常好同樣也是我們送檢365項檢驗都是無檢出的部分這個部分可以跟委員參考"},{"start":3475.566,"end":3504.351,"text":"那在售價的部分來講在這個所有茶葉的部分各位台上看到的沒有一樣超過1500塊所以我們是比較平價無實的那在茶糖的部分這麼大一包只有200塊而已所以我們是走平民路線在農產品的部分主要在報告這邊那在住宿的部分有一點也必須跟昭偉跟委員報告所有的一般其他系列的這些住宿旅宿業它建紅或者是逢假日它都是價格會提高的可是我們退幅會的所有"},{"start":3505.259,"end":3534.381,"text":"全年都是單一價格不會因為說碰到所謂的即便我們農場最夯的櫻花季我們的價格還是一樣該有的折扣也沒有少這個部分是我們跟其他那個飯店系列不同最大部分是我們為了推展國民旅遊在會裡面的指導之下所以我們所有的農場在住宿部分不會因為假日或者是特別假日價錢有提高同樣該有的折扣也都不會少這邊跟大家做報告那在我們農場的部分以兩人房的部分依據"},{"start":3535.262,"end":3561.856,"text":"房型的不同依據房型大概是三千塊到五千塊而且是一泊二十是一泊二十這部分跟各位委員做報告那歡迎各位委員有空因為我們海拔比較高天氣比較冷所以歡迎各位委員能夠上山凍齡一下因為天氣很冷大家我們上山一起凍齡一下謝謝各位委員好謝謝武林農場城長長不過你們剛才你剛才講的軍醫價其實你跟隔壁那一個你們折扣就不一樣了"},{"start":3562.956,"end":3576.587,"text":"對啊他的價他的價折扣八折什麼折你們的台價是固定的但是折扣會因為見紅不一樣他平常沒有打折你平常有打八折嗎OKOK好那我們下一位是彰化農場胡廠長"},{"start":3578.964,"end":3603.625,"text":"趙薇好 我也好我是彰化農場胡發超廠長我跟大家介紹彰化農場是一個平地農場就是中央山脈以西大概從淡水一直到屏東所以我們的物產其實算豐饒的然後嚴格講我們大概抓幾個大的重點第一個是肉系列我們的肉其實是在這個彰化西州長本部這邊大概有中華民國第一個拿到產銷履歷認證的它是以這個陽光豬養豬人家在這個"},{"start":3604.606,"end":3618.197,"text":"专业的畜牧业是打上一片天而且有获得十大神农奖的肯定而且他很早大概在15年前左右很早就是用专业的配方饲料不吃厨余的猪所以我们的猪肉品质是非常好而且是整合"},{"start":3620.018,"end":3631.763,"text":"上中下游他從這個養殖一直到做成肉鬆我們跟故宮聯名的肉鬆還有一些這個東坡肉阿嬤的紅燒肉整個系列而且有拿到農業部的這個銀髮食品的認證拿到銀牌獎這是非常適合給未來台灣高齡化的這個"},{"start":3639.146,"end":3665.889,"text":"這個好朋友們來吃這是所謂的豬肉系列另外我們很多鮮果像我們今天帶來的這個是屏東科技大學剛剛用AI合作用AI種出來的木瓜是省水結碳的木瓜是符合ESG SDGS這個對地球環保它是用那個AI去控制用低灌的設施而且它的拿去屏東有一個雙瓜節得到銀牌獎第一次參加就拿到銀牌獎這個是非常適合的然後這邊有美濃的"},{"start":3666.431,"end":3691.028,"text":"美濃的這個陳蜜香的這個在地的特產的小番茄然後特別介紹我們還有另外一個神農獎是鳳梨的部分我們有個和平洋和平洋的偉銀的廠商他研究出高端的這個鳳梨然後也外銷日本然後所以因為他外銷日本的關係所以我們農場的土地跟它偉銀獲得雙贏所以我們的營運的部分是相當的正常而且良好除了這個以外我們還有一個秘密商品就是前面看小小貫的這個"},{"start":3692.029,"end":3701.48,"text":"我們是個三合一的這個益生菌我們是跟屏東科技大學副教授施文林教授合作生育劑的而且我們有特別去執行我後面的榮總的尤其屏東榮總的專業的醫生去幫我們試吃然後比如說糖分還有酸度效果"},{"start":3706.886,"end":3725.143,"text":"然後其實都獲得認證而且它是用12種益生菌這是我們一個低調的隱形產品其實賣得非常好尤其像我最近就見到很多台灣銀行合作金庫土銀的上班族的女性都一直回購這個其實他們是說針對運動比較缺乏的上班族還有老人家然後以後上廁所就比較可以輕輕鬆鬆"},{"start":3726.744,"end":3753.153,"text":"沖沖融融然後就可以愉快達陣順利順利心情愉快然後這是特別的隱藏版在此跟各位報告而且我們有推出剛剛講的這些禮盒包有健康的堅果我們的花果茶有機的有機產教綠花果茶而且我們所有的產品都經過SGS認證保證沒有問題而且根據食品安全法我們都有投一千五百萬以上的這個這個食品安全的這個這個意外保險完全沒有問題符合消費者的相關的權益以上報告"},{"start":3753.735,"end":3761.955,"text":"那個陳永康委員說他聽完你講說那我要來吃吃看不錯那你說明算成功好最後一位我們台東農場的高國書"},{"start":3763.983,"end":3790.944,"text":"稍微好 委員好我是台東農場長台東農場的部分土地是佔有大概全台灣的千分之一是3373公頃我們委員土地大概有1700多公頃剛剛我們處長有提到我們的有機委員到今年年底到了700公頃左右台東農場是非常重視糧食安全的地方所以應該講說糧食安全仍然有著我今天帶來的產品是從香米 白米 燉米"},{"start":3792.369,"end":3799.274,"text":"黑米 糙米 跟友善米 跟米麵條 以及米穀樂我是希望說讓我們農民能夠賺到錢透過我們的委員的土地讓在地的農民可以透過耕作能夠賺到錢這是我們台東農場對於這個土地的回饋那第二個部分我也把我們台東的這個在地的那個洛神花在地的產品把它製作一個禮盒的部分我是希望說能夠讓在地花東的商品能夠打出來那謝謝各位委員"},{"start":3821.971,"end":3849.065,"text":"好 那廠長報告結束了來 請回我們現在開始進行詢答那各位廠長也不要被剛才歡樂的氣氛所騙我們還是要嚴格監督因為你們的營業績效落差真的還蠻大的好 今天詢答的時間本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點半截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請在10點半以前提出"},{"start":3849.565,"end":3875.405,"text":"本席會試狀況在11點左右進行處理現在首先請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝趙偉 我們有請副主委副主委早"},{"start":3877.527,"end":3906.522,"text":"好 今天的這個議程比較輕鬆一點那一開場我們看到我們真的是商品琳瑯滿目從食品飲品然後到這個美容化妝品那還有一些甚至比較這個高規格的這個有機產品那當然這些產品也都是我們退伍會所轄管的這些五大農場所這個生產或是聯名的商品"},{"start":3907.282,"end":3925.325,"text":"那也深獲這個廣大的消費者喜愛那我想我們退伍會所經營的這些農場不但是作為我們國內重要的一個觀光油氣和這個農業生產單位那在收益上也關乎到照顧我們退出去官兵的一個量能"},{"start":3925.885,"end":3940.14,"text":"那今天專報的內容來看從農特產品的推廣到旅遊設施的提升各大農場都有相當明確的一個規劃我想就這些特色產品的開發和成果來和副主委來做討論"},{"start":3941.84,"end":3970.595,"text":"根據我們報告的內容我們退伍會目前所採取的是自營生產還有合作開發雙軌並行並且因應氣候的特色我們高山農場和平地農場的依據不同特性發展不同的類型產品當中也列舉我們各大農場今年所推出的新產品非常的多我們剛剛看到應該有超過近百項以上的產品"},{"start":3971.676,"end":3993.776,"text":"我剛剛來簽到報告的內容是這個可能只有一部分而已商品的部分可能比這個更多好幾倍我想請教副主委我們目前對於商品開發的策略是怎麼樣有沒有可能我們的商品因為品項太多造成我們自家農產互打的情形"},{"start":3995.993,"end":4011.912,"text":"謝委員 謝委員的關心稱陸委員所講的我們產品種類很多所以說一般都不大了解今天才會有來這邊做一個給大家做個介紹那我們產品的策略上一共分的三種一個是自產農的產品"},{"start":4013.934,"end":4043.454,"text":"那另外一個是委營農民合作開發的商品還有一個是聯名的商品那這三種產品其實都我們都會經過一些產銷的驗證跟像SGS的驗證實際上的合格那也像台東農場剛剛就有特別介紹因為那邊其實有機種植友善土地是非常非常獎勵的而且成效也都非常的好"},{"start":4044.214,"end":4059.76,"text":"那我们各个农场呢其实有各个农场的特色像亲近农场呢它的特色就是以绵羊、马绣跟一些相关产品的开发"},{"start":4060.64,"end":4081.252,"text":"那福壽山農場呢其實它是屬於2300公尺以上的高山所以說它的茶葉跟蘋果就是其他的農場沒有的那武陵農場它的行菊行菊是完全是有機種植那它的櫻花也好或是周邊的茶糖其實我們有把它區分開來"},{"start":4083.533,"end":4104.048,"text":"嘉義嘉化農場跟台農農場是平地農場都是跟委員會相關的一些十大神農也好啦在地特色也好都結合地方的特色所以說基本上都有各個農場的在地特色化不會互相說只會一起買啦不會分別競價不會因為商品這個性質相"},{"start":4110.692,"end":4132.724,"text":"相同然後造成不老的情形因為它的那個品項的高低也差異性也都有讓它出來好那在這個農特產品的這個銷售通路上我們看到目前還是以這個農場實體的這個販賣部還有我們各自在網路上的一個商城為主"},{"start":4133.584,"end":4149.741,"text":"那但是我們現在現有的這個通路在能見度和便利性上我想還是有需要再加強的部分尤其是這些農場大多不是位處在這個交通易達的一個地方那我想請教副主委我們對於這個都會地區的"},{"start":4152.664,"end":4181.397,"text":"這個受眾有沒有可能拓展其他的這個通路的這個規劃讓我們這些優質的農特產品能夠讓更多的民眾方便觸及方便購買謝偉其實這也是我們一直要開發的地方那我們除了網路平台然後結合新興百貨公司我們自己的產銷公司然後另外也在旅展中我們也都有展覽那最近呢"},{"start":4181.997,"end":4202.05,"text":"我們也聯名跟故宮百年的開發合作22個商品這些商品也陸續會在故宮的地方來販賣透過故宮的經銷來開發當然我們也會有跟一些學校像屏東科技大學"},{"start":4202.97,"end":4221.351,"text":"還有一些一些戰地的一些委員戶我們也都會會跟他合作然後用他用互相的平台來做一些一些一些經銷那如果再更細的話看看那個我們處長會不會再做一個一個一個說明跟委員報告"},{"start":4222.872,"end":4247.699,"text":"我們目前除了剛剛副主委報告的項目之外我們到各單位的活動我們都有去涉灘第二個是我們目前在跟國軍的福利總部在洽談未來會在他們平台上面去鋪路這個是我們目前在規劃的部分最近是在跟各農院在洽談是說後續會在各農院涉灘來做產品促銷以上做說明"},{"start":4248.379,"end":4272.841,"text":"好 那剛剛那個副主委也談到了我們跟故宮聯名的部分那我想就這個部分先請教我們副主委我們今年這個事逢故宮百週年的這個願慶那我們退伍會跟故宮跨界合作結合這個五大農場的相關特色產品透過品牌的這個授權推出22項的聯名商品"},{"start":4274.362,"end":4293.987,"text":"這樣的這個聯名確實也讓民眾耳目一新但是在今年十月份我們退伍會的這個夜報當中有提到預計從十月份開始會陸續推出聯名的商品但截至目前為止我剛剛大概看了一下我們現場的產品應該是沒有超過五項是跟故宮聯名的這個商品"},{"start":4297.648,"end":4319.833,"text":"那其他的商品呢是請教一下我們副主委這個退伍會跟故宮聯名的這些商品我們推出的情形是不是有delay還是說這次聯名的計畫有什麼問題那會持續多久我們這個聯名的計畫會持續多久那明年是否還會規劃其他的聯名活動謝委員關心"},{"start":4320.493,"end":4346.066,"text":"因為目前我們故宮合作22項裡面目前只有一部分的商品是在販售的那其餘的商品要等到明年115年1月份由故宮來審議通過之後才會陸續來上市那年底的商品除了在農場跟故宮之外我們其實我們也陸陸續續會再開發其他的商品也會跟其他的"},{"start":4346.846,"end":4369.677,"text":"那些那個合作來做其他的聯名的商品來開發所以就是還沒有全部都推出預計22項所以現在就是陸續推出是好那我們從這個報告當中也看到目前這個我們彰化台東清淨農場還有都有跟這些廠商來合作開發許多的商品"},{"start":4372.518,"end":4395.299,"text":"現場看到的包括當然就是益生菌有機米還有綿羊油保養品等等相信都是受到民眾喜愛的商品那廠商會這個大量的生產並且掛上我們的這個品牌消網市場那我想這部分我要請教副主委就是目前針對這些合作開發的商品我們是否有落實"},{"start":4396.28,"end":4424.898,"text":"品質的這個管控避免發生因為廠商的疏失而對我們農場品牌造成打擊的情形是 我們其實每個商品的不管是開發商品還是聯名的商品我們都是通過第三方驗證的機構像剛剛農場也有報告就SGS的檢驗這完全符合食安法的規定好 那我想我們退伍會是一個"},{"start":4426.68,"end":4451.859,"text":"政府機關我們的商品都是經過層層的把關我想對於未來推出的商品還是要由我們退伍會旗下五大農場甚至我們這些協力的廠商要做最高規格的品質管控才能夠繼續讓我們這個品牌在這個業界擦亮擦光"},{"start":4452.74,"end":4472.854,"text":"那退伍會不管是開發或是行銷商品的這個腳步都有在加快當中那從廠商合作到故宮聯名甚至未來我們也可能跟其他的這個知名的這些機關或是廠商在做聯名也展現我們在推廣特色商品的一個決心"},{"start":4473.695,"end":4500.169,"text":"但是這個五大農場的這個品牌價值應該是在於這個優良的品質這個前提之下我想請我們退伍會我們相關單位的各位主管務必建立嚴格的這個品質監控的一個機制持續加強行銷推廣的一個工作不但讓我們退伍會優質的這些農特產品能夠受到國人更多的支持也要讓我們退伍會"},{"start":4501.029,"end":4509.791,"text":"農場的這個品牌更有這個辨識度是好 以上的質疑是 謝委員 謝委員各位請回號接下來進行尋答的委員是羅美妮委員謝謝主席有請傅政成副主委來 副主委喂好"},{"start":4528.787,"end":4546.367,"text":"副主委 早安今天早上我們真的是外交國防委員會真的難得如此的輕鬆滿桌都是退府會高山農場所帶來的農產品不管是用的 吃的 喝的 茶的 抹的全部都有"},{"start":4546.747,"end":4555.87,"text":"而且我看起來因為早上我就要來稍微觀察了一下真的品質是非常的優質而且我們還跟故宮聯名所以有些產品它的包裝其實是非常的精美的可是我發現真的就是剛剛我們陳俊文所提到的因為這些產品"},{"start":4565.513,"end":4590.985,"text":"真的很多都是我們第一次在這裡看到那平常呢如果說沒有見到我們的銷售的這個網站或是到這個農場去的話或是到新興百貨去的話我們真的在平常的一些商場是幾乎沒有看到這些產品的這個蹤跡真的是比較可惜所以我們比較建議就是說以後這個銷售的管道呢可以更加的這個多元化讓一般的民眾平常都能夠容易去做這個觸及"},{"start":4594.126,"end":4605.229,"text":"這是我們這邊看到的這個產品如此的優質我想不管是自用送禮其實都是非常的適合尤其是國際友人我覺得要送給國際友人當這個伴手禮我想這個都是非常適合的所以我在想這個銷售跟這個觸及這個部分我想應該要更加來做這個多元"},{"start":4615.091,"end":4628.975,"text":"那當然剛剛有提到就是說可能未來我們會到跟這個國軍的平台或者是榮運的來做這個結合可是我覺得不應該只有這樣那有辦法到其他的賣場去做鋪畫嗎這部分 請問副主委"},{"start":4630.155,"end":4651.63,"text":"我們再多開發一些管路跟平台對 我是覺得如果品質很好像我剛才看的青青農場的產品你看它這個女性的朋友應該會非常的喜歡它有綿羊油 面膜然後包裝也都非常的柔性可是我今天真的是第一次在這裡看到我覺得這個應該要多多來做行銷"},{"start":4655.032,"end":4677.724,"text":"OK 好 那再來我要針對我們三所高山農場也就是武陵清淨福壽山的經營行銷跟觀光的推廣我想剛剛也說了很多的說明可是這三所高山農場的遊客數一年不如一年我想這都是不爭的事實那我們看清淨農場"},{"start":4679.105,"end":4700.977,"text":"到目前為止 去年 今年真的都還沒有回到像疫情之前的遊客數像青林農場幾乎都是腰斬的那武陵也是 武陵過去的話其實我看都還有三四十萬的人數可是去年就不行了 就不到三十萬今年也是一樣所以像這個部分的話 到底出了什麼狀況"},{"start":4702.458,"end":4709.824,"text":"那不是單單只有就是說因為有風災啦有這個地震的關係應該有很多的這個因素我在想很多這個"},{"start":4711.588,"end":4739.621,"text":"資源沒有辦法整合我想這是一個很大的這個原因因為我們看到這親近商圈今年出現很明顯的一些骨牌式的這個撤出像這個大院子 莫凡比餐廳薰衣草森林 歐都納等等這些大品牌都相繼的退出了尤其是這個我們以前都說我們要到全台海拔最高的這星巴克來喝一杯咖啡它已經經營20年了可是今年的7月它就正式歇業了"},{"start":4739.961,"end":4746.144,"text":"我真的覺得非常的可惜像清淨農場的知名的文創據點清淨紙香王創業園區它也經營了17年今年的11月也歇業了那清淨農場本來它的養牛事業其實過去的話其實也是非常的蓬勃"},{"start":4757.729,"end":4781.964,"text":"也結束營業所以青青農場不可能我們只有羊妹妹或是青青草原我今天會特別想要講青青農場是因為過去我去過青青農場非常多次10年前跟10年後真的是感覺上真的落差很大就像台語所形容的現在真的嬉比很多以前過去10年前我們到青青農場可能還會擔心像假日會有塞車的問題"},{"start":4785.146,"end":4790.388,"text":"像現在連假日去的話我都覺得說交通順暢很多了那是為什麼因為遊客減少了車輛減少了所以我在想這個部分應該是要來徹底檢討的這個部分我們不能指控有這個優質的產品這遊客"},{"start":4802.552,"end":4821.446,"text":"我們要如何讓它回流那像前幾天我也看到一些網友在討論清淨農場你看他在形容什麼說沿路民宿雜亂無章空租店面充斥那很多的這個知名品牌都撤出了所以我們不能說只有自己自營的部分"},{"start":4822.347,"end":4845.305,"text":"我們去做這個修繕那我有看到就是說我們像我們的這個我們好像國賓的那個飯店我們有去做修繕等等可是這個只是自營的部分那我們要如何跟周遭的周邊的商圈來做合作我覺得這個合作的機制可能不足因為我有看到前陣子"},{"start":4845.945,"end":4872.23,"text":"也有一些退出的業者他提出了很多的問題我想這個部分應該是補導會跟清淨農場要特別來做留意的部分這個部分我們副主委有沒有要說明的部分因為我今天特別想要強調的是清淨農場因為我覺得好可惜一個這麼風景宜人的地區居然造成旅客慢慢的不來了這個部分真的很需要做檢討"},{"start":4873.436,"end":4892.996,"text":"是 谢委员 谢委员清津农场的关系要我一个一个跟委员做报告那确实在疫情之后呢这两年呢我们的农场高山农场的游客有减少那主要是受到地震台风那个强下雨那交通有一些很多的管制措施"},{"start":4893.917,"end":4909.242,"text":"那當然降低了我們國人規劃到山林旅遊的一些意願所以說有些下降但我們也有很多的一些措施像剛剛委員所講的清新農場周邊的一些商圈"},{"start":4910.362,"end":4933.604,"text":"那我們統一是由統一超商來一個統一來經營那因為他的一個一個招商的策略的改變所以說結束了這些那個星巴克的這個營運但他已經改由本土的咖啡品牌TGC來進駐那上線的營運基本上在我們這個農場的部分是正常的"},{"start":4934.545,"end":4957.032,"text":"那第三個就是有關商圈的一些結合我們也在想辦法推出跟部落特色的商品以及原住民烘味餐那未來我們也會跟偉銀商偉銀的廠商來洽談合作整合行銷辦理比較特色的活動"},{"start":4958.653,"end":4981.275,"text":"串联各个商圈来提升整体的观光的吸引力像我们有奔阳节也好或者是燕尾节、长街宴云南的滇缅的这些活动我们跟博望新村的一些合作把这些滇缅义包这些特色把它给"},{"start":4982.336,"end":5009.051,"text":"發展出來那麼這我們慢慢會按照委員的這個指導我們一步一步來來做一個商圈的結合謝謝副主委剛才所提到其實都是現在進行時只是說如何去做加強你剛才講的滇緬餐什麼這些其實這意思都有因為我過去一直常常上京津農場這些其實我們都有嘗試過剛剛副主委您有提到的因為地震跟颱風所以造成一些道路的損害跟封閉"},{"start":5009.591,"end":5022.265,"text":"所以有一些人會覺得就直接就貼上一個標籤說清淨 農場不安全所以甚至到遇到颱風就馬上取消這個就馬上退房了所以造成可是問題是"},{"start":5023.772,"end":5050.121,"text":"我們總會有修復嘛 總會有災後修復嘛現在就有業者在反映就是說在災情的時候 當然媒體會大肆的報導讓民眾覺得說 親近農場很不安全可是災後修復之後 其實我們並沒有做到就是說其實我們已經做修復了我們很歡迎大家回到山上來可是這一點 真的是業者有在反映這個部分我們後續這個部分沒有做加強 沒有去做宣導"},{"start":5051.521,"end":5053.602,"text":"那再來還有就是說說實在的一整年下來我們真的看不到親近農場有什麼大型的活動除了就是說這個比如說剛剛有提到的就是說跨年晚會可是跨年的這個晚會他們也覺得說都已經是非常老舊了"},{"start":5071.247,"end":5075.812,"text":"不夠新鮮 所以很多年輕人 剛開始覺得很新鮮到鄉上去 到親近農場去跨年可是現在很多人可能也不去可是你總不能一整年 親近農場只靠跨年那一場吧全年來講的話 幾乎沒有什麼大型的活動吸引不了人潮所以這是那時候 我們又整理了一些葉子他們的反應的一些事情他們希望說 像交通也是一樣"},{"start":5094.21,"end":5107.605,"text":"那希望就是說能達到這個可達性跟可被看見性其實清淨農場真的是我真的說真的是沒落啦跟早期我們去跟現在這看起來真的是還蠻難過的所以這部分真的很需要大家來做加強所以那當然這個"},{"start":5115.194,"end":5133.873,"text":"剛剛副主委有提到說招商的方式改變其實像星巴克他們真的覺得說真的是遊客數不足他們經營不下去了真的就撤出很大的原因因為現在不是只有星巴克有這麼多的品牌這個廠商都已經撤出了這其實就是一個很大的警訊"},{"start":5135.414,"end":5149.422,"text":"這部分當然要討論的有很多那今天我是特別針對清淨農場這個需要做檢討我們真的希望就是說清淨農場可以回到過去的這個榮景我想需要努力的地方真的是非常非常的多"},{"start":5150.602,"end":5165.666,"text":"是我們讓委員的指導我們把交通的可見性跟大型活動我們我們來研究然後讓他更吸引更多的遊客進來OK好大家加油謝謝羅文林委員好各位請回接下來進行巡達委員沈伯陽委員謝謝主席有請副主委謝謝副主委請"},{"start":5185.291,"end":5199.636,"text":"會議好好 副主委好這個其實因為今天因為退福會難得所以我是想說還是想要針對就業媒合來詢問不過在這個之前我還是先問一下今天這些農場因為今天畢竟有那麼多的這些產品擺在這邊"},{"start":5201.477,"end":5215.712,"text":"那我會認為因為我們立法委員的責任除了這個修法以外蠻重要的就是要守護預算但是退伍會這邊很特別因為這是一個非常重要的收入那這個收入其實以立委來講我們就簡單來說可以有很多的建議"},{"start":5216.833,"end":5233.642,"text":"但這個建議其實這個分際也不好拿捏但總之希望有更多的收入這是一定的我在聽這個夜報的時候我的感覺是這樣就是我們的產品其實非常的優秀而且這產品很多是我自己都有購買所以我覺得產品本身反而不是最大的問題"},{"start":5234.642,"end":5258.463,"text":"那就是剛剛這個美玲委員其實也有提到比如說像農場外面的這個觀光的聚落這個聚落要怎麼生成這個其實我在看日本的時候他們都會有一些計畫這個計畫就是它不是只有我今天自己這邊的計畫而是我周邊的這個整個聚落的計畫是什麼這其實蠻重要的比如說你希望怎樣的商家在附近進駐然後你希望他們要做什麼樣的行銷"},{"start":5259.364,"end":5288.864,"text":"這其實都會有就是類似像日本它可能會有類似商店街什麼等等之類的大家會互相合作因為我的感覺就是說其實人民對於我們這些農場的印象普遍來講都是很不錯的但是在這幾次天然災害的時候只要幾則新聞的報導大家就可能會覺得說那最近是不是不要過去剛剛倒過來講其實重要的事情就是我們有沒有一樣的力度因為災難的時候大家都在看新聞所以看到這一個說現在沒有辦法過去的人多"},{"start":5289.604,"end":5304.13,"text":"但你要強調說現在不但是非常的安全而且又很好玩適合親子等等之類的那個的力度可能要更大才有辦法讓等量的人都看到所以我覺得在宣傳跟這一個所謂的行銷這一個方面"},{"start":5305.45,"end":5333.699,"text":"我是不會說什麼兩個禮拜內提出計畫因為這個畢竟就這個不是我覺得因為我們畢竟比較多還是在守護預算但是這個畢竟是跟收入有關但我的建議就是這種比較通盤性 全盤性的跟觀光聚落有關的計畫如果能夠更周延的話看是不是能夠讓來的人提升這件事情收入提升對退伏會一定是好事因為退伏會其實我在這一次在這個就業撫養在這邊看的時候其實還是需要很多的預算"},{"start":5334.139,"end":5363.178,"text":"那更不要講說其實在未來我知道這個預算今年預算還沒有省所以有一些新興的有一些增加的沒有辦法使用的狀況之下其實退幅匯的收入我認為反而就顯得更為重要所以這邊就只是建議而已這邊我就不多說接下來我想問的就是跟就業媒合因為前陣子我們有到這一個北榮這一邊我們有去特別去看就是說整體的運作的狀況在這個之前我先想問一下就是說"},{"start":5364.239,"end":5381.708,"text":"以現在退幅會來講因為預算法第54條講的是說新興資本跟新增的計畫要預算完成審議後使得動之那因為今年預算還沒有審所以會有一些新興計畫沒有辦法持續那針對這個新興的計畫現在會遇到困難的有哪些"},{"start":5382.872,"end":5404.398,"text":"縣委我們115年的稅數預算一共有1300多億6000多萬那依照這個預算法跟行政院的補充規定受到影響的呢應該是有4億6000多萬那這當中呢新興資本支出跟新增計畫有9000多萬"},{"start":5406.699,"end":5434.558,"text":"這大概是 這次準備我們在辦理北農新醫院區的前置作業那其他人呢 新增支出有三億七千多萬那這個都是新增農家的委外 造福員啊那個護理啊 廚工啊 這些人的薪資大概三億七百多萬那也補助農業的發展社區性的健康造物兩千六百多萬"},{"start":5435.399,"end":5458.939,"text":"那這邊還有一個是龍湖處要徵聘那個服務組長300多萬大概是這些的經費都會受到影響那第一我逐步來看剛剛第一個你提到的這個9000多萬的這一個是因為要興建然後呢要讓這一個比如說是宿舍的人移過去然後讓那一個土地可以讓這一個北龍所利用是否可以再詳細說明一下"},{"start":5460.781,"end":5483.716,"text":"這個因為在行政院今年的8月11號有核定台北榮總心醫院區的興建計畫那就是主計畫但是計畫基地就包含了松德的宿舍跟松德的停車場那這些都是現在我們同仁在這邊的一些使用的地方"},{"start":5484.625,"end":5499.188,"text":"那這些我們必須要在其他地方做整修北樓技術大樓跟松伯新村把整修完之後呢這個地方才有辦法移開來所以說這個是預算就放在這個地方"},{"start":5499.989,"end":5519.155,"text":"我覺得這個是至關重要因為我們之前也常提到比如說醫療量能的問題然後以及說真的現在我們跟其他國家的合作也變得越來越多在軍事方面所以我們相關的這些醫療的量能是不是逐步也能夠提升尤其是跟國家有關的這個是重要的如果這個"},{"start":5519.955,"end":5537.974,"text":"地是沒有辦法出來的話因為你如果宿舍沒有辦法興建完成你就沒有辦法移動沒有辦法移動的話這個會連帶影響我覺得這個要讓國人知道因為我覺得這個對我們來講這也是屬於國家安全的一環我覺得這個非常的重要剛剛提到另外這個3億這一個的項目呢是跟照護員有關嗎榮民安養吉養護嘛 對不對"},{"start":5542.146,"end":5565.936,"text":"對 它是在這個我們在各農家我們各農家依據老人福利機構的設立標準都有固定的人力配比那這些配比所需要的照護人力還有都是按照各農家的戰船率來配置人力所以說一定有一個實際上的需求那麼因為"},{"start":5568.399,"end":5588.284,"text":"那個預算呢這個預算如果沒有審查通過呢那就會影響到我們委外的照護員還有護工和儲工的薪資保障和權益的 還有勞動的權益當然也會影響到我們實際照護的配比人力啦品質都會受到一些挑戰"},{"start":5589.785,"end":5610.363,"text":"這個聽起來也是嚴重的影響因為我之前在這一個看這一個相關照護員的一些影片的時候我就發現因為其實畢竟需要被照護的這個量其實是多的我有看到有AI系統的一些眼鏡就是說可能裝設一些它如果肯裝設的話比如說它跌倒可能會有通知等等之類的我有看到這一套系統"},{"start":5611.584,"end":5639.957,"text":"這個的確有辦法稍微緩解一下人力但我認為基本上還是不夠用這個你1對10 1對7對我來講這個其實都是太高了所以如果說這個照護的人力如果出現斷層的話這個對我們對榮民的照護這是極大的影響極大的影響所以當然我們是希望預算趕快審因為如果這一個部分我覺得這個影響是立即的是1月1號就可能會有影響所以這個也必須要讓國人知道"},{"start":5640.797,"end":5656.348,"text":"好那接下來我想問的就是這個就好不容易問到了就是就業媒合就是那個居民這個專長轉弦因為之前在夜報的時候就已經有提到AI模擬面試那一天我們去的時候也現場看了這個AI模擬面試看起來是非常的不錯跟這個桃園有這個他們的系統有整合然後看起來這個問題的題庫還有他的判讀等等之類這看起來是非常好"},{"start":5665.974,"end":5689.047,"text":"那裡面有提到幾件事情今天的這個前陣子的報告也有講就是說因為我們居民專長轉型的那個對照非常的多然後是逐步要完成然後呢之前完成了100多項然後看起來說12月我記得是20號吧就是剛過沒多久是12月20另外有300項預計要完成是不是可以稍微報告一下這個相關的進度請我們持樹王來報告沒問題 謝謝"},{"start":5691.926,"end":5695.83,"text":"委員好 首先非常感謝委員長期關心我們居民專長轉嫌這個案子其實我們總共均值的專長753項我們到12月20號已經完成401項到明年5月底我還有300多項一定可以如期如質完成 沒有問題"},{"start":5711.967,"end":5729.747,"text":"因為這個滿需要這個也是需要跟跨部會的合作所以這件事情其實特別的重要因為越快的完成那個系統資料才會夠豐富就像我這邊有特別把你們這個弄出來比如說你是機槍領導士你適合什麼樣的職業然後缺什麼樣的證照這件事情非常重要我是希望能夠盡快再來就是"},{"start":5732.31,"end":5754.592,"text":"我們現在告訴我們的國軍說如果你今天退伍之後你可以有什麼樣的工作你可能可以做這個A類的事 B類的然後你可能需要什麼樣的證照之前就有人會質疑說你這樣來做的話這樣大家都覺得說那我趕快退伍等等之類的但看起來結果是相反的對不對是不是可以跟國人說明一下"},{"start":5754.912,"end":5784.051,"text":"是 謝謝委員其實我們現在做了這個軍民專長的轉嫌以後真的是有助於他在軍中希望他能夠安定的安身立命在軍中好好長留久用那退下來以後由我們這邊這一套藉由這樣的一個軍職專長來可以順利幫他介紹到民間的職場我們長期以來一直跟國防部做這方面的溝通那現在國防部的長官都非常的認同這對於他的人才招募是有正面注意"},{"start":5784.731,"end":5804.759,"text":"我們會持續跟大眾來報告這是一個很正面循環幫助我們退伍軍人退後持續發揮人力資源很重要的一個管道謝謝因為我們在問我們的國軍的時候他們也有發現當他們如果呢他們知道要哪些證照才會好找那他也知道了以後呢他反而留在軍中更久然後呢把這個證照考到之後然後才去"},{"start":5806.32,"end":5827.673,"text":"做退伍等等之類的我覺得這個對我們來講因為他很多的人生他會有各式各樣的選擇讓他可以知道他在軍中的時候他的信心然後他對於這個以後可能會被送到照顧這件事情他心裡越覺得安定其實對國軍是一個非常正面的注意那就最後還是再提醒兩件事情就是第一個就是因為這個滿意度看起來是非常高但是我們還是希望參與的人"},{"start":5828.773,"end":5854.018,"text":"越來越多越好因為有些人他不會參與他可能家裡本來就有就有工作或什麼的但是越多人能夠參與才可以進入到這一個滿意然後進入到這個系統裡面第二個就是我們不斷提醒的這個資安的問題一定要特別注意但是那天我們現場有看過看起來是OK但是一定要持續注意資安的因為這對中國來講是非常Valuable的資料是 謝謝委員指導謝謝謝謝副總委謝謝處長謝謝主席國安委員各位請回"},{"start":5868.673,"end":5882.491,"text":"現在有請王定宇 趙文上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩副主委有請副主委"},{"start":5885.216,"end":5912.446,"text":"那各業管單位要上來補充協助的都可以執行上來好 副主委我們今天特別請了各農場廠長還有我們事業處的單位來報告相關的營運績效還有他一些產品的介紹當然這個都蠻不錯的但我們還是我們如果把全民當作退輔會的股東因為我們是國家的單位那我們就要來看經營的狀況基本上我把它"},{"start":5913.953,"end":5928.581,"text":"簡單合併分成三個領域第一個就是說這個農場的經營績效好或不好呢我會橫向的比較就我們都是農場我們橫向比較績效有高有低低的為什麼高的為什麼找出原因"},{"start":5929.321,"end":5944.881,"text":"第二個呢年度的縱向的比較我今年跟去年比或者這三年來比比較一下這個趨勢到底經營上有沒有出問題或者有沒有值得強化的地方這個是比較的部分那比較的範疇呢大概就是"},{"start":5945.862,"end":5960.817,"text":"有時候兩個來比八百十八歲大小很不一樣嘛就是條件的差異有的是地理位置有的是天然條件有的是交通的便利性這個是我們沒辦法改變的這是條件的比較第二個是經營內容的差異"},{"start":5964.761,"end":5984.87,"text":"我賣的產品每一個單價就比較高我另外一個經營的產品單價比較低我賣一萬件還不如他賣一件這種產品服務的內容的差異第三個比較的範疇是就來到我們經營者經營管理的差異行銷啦"},{"start":5986.05,"end":6001.635,"text":"人力啦成本控制啦定價的策略啦這三個範疇加上自我比較跟橫向比較我們就來找問題了我大概這個方式先讓副主委還有我們處長先了解所以我們來看我整列幾個表"},{"start":6002.995,"end":6023.738,"text":"武林農場這5年來的營運績效我們可以看到他的17%投報率來看我先抓投報率啦那一直到2025年11月為止這個橫向比較跟其他農場來比呢不差 坦白講屬於中前段"},{"start":6025.1,"end":6053.239,"text":"但是如果你特別注意到今年來看他是往下下滑如果這兩年來看呢跟2023年來看的話我們的遊客人數呢減了差不多35%到40喔這個可以說相當顯著那我們再來看清淨農場清淨農場是我最想問的清淨農場其實知名度最高可是清淨農場的橫向2025年的橫向的比較呢坦白說不佳是4.22%的投報率"},{"start":6055.54,"end":6069.092,"text":"那你如果仔細看他的旅客人數從2023年的13%到2025年的4%多其實旅客的人數下降了大概20%左右"},{"start":6071.113,"end":6088.568,"text":"人數下滑 年度大幅下滑從十多趴掉到四趴喔而且那個很特別就是人數少了二十萬從八十六萬掉到六十一萬可是我的營業績下滑的比例比人數高很多"},{"start":6089.707,"end":6112.481,"text":"就表示說來的人沒有減少那麼多但是我的營收減少比較大這到底為什麼如果再看福壽山農場呢橫向比較今年5%多而已坦白說不佳那年度來看從去年20%掉到今年只剩5%多大幅下降台東農場是我另外一個最想問的他為什麼"},{"start":6113.909,"end":6138.038,"text":"績效這麼好 是基期太低還是怎麼樣就是他的投報率 都190幾 140幾 148%這經營的奇才啊那要不然就是他的基期的計算可能跟別人不一樣否則不可能好這麼多那年度也大幅上升所以台東農場如果計算方式跟大家都一樣這個廠長應該要拉上來當處長"},{"start":6142.321,"end":6165.325,"text":"就是他經營績效這麼好啊都破百但是他遊客人次沒有統計給我我沒辦法獲知這個是為什麼那彰化農場呢他的橫向比較中等那彰化農場我知道他可能還要監管其他地方的土地啊什麼的他經營績效橫向比每年都是8% 5% 7%這樣子大概算中等"},{"start":6165.865,"end":6175.291,"text":"那今年度跟去年度比也上揚了好我現在摘要說明完了請教副主委就你了解為什麼有的下滑這麼嚴重"},{"start":6177.301,"end":6195.815,"text":"你們有沒有研究或者處長這邊先為我先講完然後再請處長做補充那確實我們三個高山農場的旅遊人數都有下滑那下滑的原因當然也就是這兩年呢其實是受到強降雨"},{"start":6196.636,"end":6223.108,"text":"還有颱風的這些影響那個不管你從宜蘭上去還是從台中往台14號上去其實交通是經常被管制的那管制交通確實造成我們有很多的一些讓大家沒有不願意上山去做高山的一個旅遊這是一個很重要的因素那當然我們在這個"},{"start":6227.15,"end":6250.887,"text":"這個清淨農場的營收下來的部分呢我們過去呢比較靠門票的收入啦那這個我們要改進這個地方我們必須要再去開發其他的其實你這樣回答我可以理解颱風啊交通中斷但你沒有回答我的問題因為我有橫的比較跟縱向的比較你說清淨靠門票"},{"start":6252.088,"end":6272.982,"text":"他每年都靠門票啊那為什麼這五年你如果仔細看他的下滑度他整個掉下來的速率其實很顯著為什麼這年營收特別有問題除了客觀條件你說颱風就好了台東那裡也有颱風啊可是台東營收爆表到百分之一百九十幾他那裡也有颱風也有道路中斷啊"},{"start":6274.298,"end":6296.338,"text":"所以為什麼有沒有什麼是我們可以改善的因素有沒有房舍老舊啦或者經營方針出問題啦造成我們這五大農場其實有三個它的營業是往下掉的你們有沒有抓出真正的原因如果我還要再細分的話我應該按季來分因為颱風季節好發在第二季第三季嘛"},{"start":6297.159,"end":6309.734,"text":"我如果按計來分就可以抓出新的問題所以那個處長這裡有處長這邊有沒有研究一下你手下這五個農場為什麼這兩年營業額都往下掉委員跟委員報告有關"},{"start":6312.758,"end":6341.033,"text":"三高山農場整個人數下滑是一個確實的狀況那我們確實也去了解說為什麼人數下滑其實這兩年從去年0403地震之後道路的中斷跟管制其實從台14甲去年的道路中斷到今年台7甲的修路其實路一直在修那我請問現在道路修復了沒目前道路都是通暢的那目前就台8的部分從大禹嶺到福州站這段還在修路"},{"start":6341.613,"end":6358.315,"text":"道路都已經恢復通常是幾月份恢復的因為都是斷斷續續所以說如果已經來看的話如果是7月份是完整可以通車所以理論上我從今年的8月到明年的7月底"},{"start":6358.976,"end":6377.288,"text":"我們的營收應該要回到交通因素不存在喔你們很多是調到只剩4%原來22% 13%的投報率調到3% 4%那我接受你剛才講的因素但那個因素在今年7月以後不存在的時候那明年我來看這個幾個季度的營收的話"},{"start":6378.089,"end":6402.458,"text":"你要回到十三二十幾是第二個跟委員報告就是說因為今年的颱風影響像福壽山原本去年就有稍微影響從原來17萬斤的果到去年10萬斤那今年更受影響因為八月份的洋流颱風加上今年三月份山上下雪四月份強降雨其實整個授粉狀況跟弱果的狀況其實造成"},{"start":6403.038,"end":6425.659,"text":"我們今年的果品少收9萬斤其實9萬斤的話我們換算一公斤一斤的話是200塊這樣就將近1800萬所以說整體營收果的少收其實對我們影響很大第二個氣候的影響像福州山農場今年的茶葉兩期茶各少收1000斤所以我少收2000斤所以說對農場的在農作物的影響方面非常甚去"},{"start":6426.26,"end":6445.88,"text":"那陳路主委講的其實我們在旅客數雖然是減少但是我們的住宿狀況其實是有維持的所以那個處長或是副主委這邊我希望以後這個報表的呈現可以更精準比方說按季然後這個季發生了什麼重大下雪"},{"start":6446.661,"end":6467.375,"text":"所以我造成這個弱果或營收減少多少斤那我就知道減少的原因是天然災害那相對的有沒有取得農業部的農災災損的補償因為你們不列入啊所有的災損補償從COVID到現在你們都不歸他們管所以補助金你們都領不到你可以把它載民否則我現在分析不出來你為什麼掉下來那我最後幾十秒"},{"start":6468.976,"end":6481.05,"text":"可是你剛才講的那些因素我希望在明年我看這個報表除非有新的道路中斷否則這個數據就變不及格囉明年就要拉回來嘛但是你剛才講的那些因素都存在那為什麼台東農場192%欸"},{"start":6483.953,"end":6510.979,"text":"為什麼他們特別好因為他們最主要是尾營的狀況還有他們欠收款有收回來還有他們利息調整沒有 你每一年都190幾 180幾你每年都在有欠收款那是菅營討債公司那為什麼每一年都欠收款我可以說明一下台東農場為什麼表現這麼優異最主要原因 原本他們自營的譬如說東河 譬如說池上他們現在都是尾營出去的原本我們在自營的時候那兩個地方都是虧錢的"},{"start":6512.119,"end":6522.736,"text":"一年大概虧五六百萬現在委營出去我抓了五年的數據都199他只有兩個原因第一個計算基礎偏低要調高啦"},{"start":6524.603,"end":6551.481,"text":"他營業項目你以前這些米啊 尾銀的虧損我現在收回來 收回來那麼多年了每年都190幾%的營收我坦白講這個如果要發那種鼓勵啊 配東的股東大會人家就說你造假因為你基期偏低 大家都10% 20%就超級好了有的3% 4% 他都190幾%所以是不是計算的基準應該要調整另外一個情形就是我們廠長是不是出了人才啊 應該拉上來當副主委啊"},{"start":6553.092,"end":6563.495,"text":"農曉他經營技巧這麼好啊就是說你這個東西在統計學上叫做離差嘛那這離差我要找到原因好不好那因為時間關係我們後續會再追蹤你們經營的狀況好 謝謝各位好 謝謝委員好 接下來進行詢答的委員賴世保委員"},{"start":6585.551,"end":6591.654,"text":"謝謝主席 請各位先進有請退伏會的副副主委副主委請來喂好"},{"start":6598.618,"end":6618.004,"text":"副主委你好這個我看前幾天你們有一個都要announce說你們要修退府條例第32條對於退役的官兵有傷害國家尊嚴要停止領受退休金有這回事吧我們有在那個胡桃條例裡面有做修訂什麼時候可以送到立法院審查"},{"start":6630.866,"end":6656.101,"text":"上個禮拜行政院院會通過之後應該是送立法院審查所以下個禮拜行政院會通過院會上週通過好 現在上禮拜院會有通過也開過記者會院會通過了對不對對 也開過記者會所以下禮拜可以送立法院送的時間我不清楚因為這是好 那你這樣來講傷害國家尊嚴怎麼定義就是傷害國家尊嚴"},{"start":6657.541,"end":6669.945,"text":"跟委員報告我們退伍條例三十二條的規定其實我們是執行單位啦就是說兩岸關係條例裡面有定的相同的所以你針對兩岸針對兩岸那韓國對我們講一個什麼China 台灣有沒有傷害國家尊嚴啊請問你啊有沒有"},{"start":6682.148,"end":6684.229,"text":"要不要扣退休金跟委員報告我們輔導條例第32條第二項原來就有規定就是他只要是依法律喪失了退出給予的你沒有回答我的問題我是說是什麼叫傷害國家尊嚴你要講清楚這個到底是什麼樣你界定誰來界定"},{"start":6706.936,"end":6713.539,"text":"因為我們的法律的規定這個部分我們是依照其他法律鎖定的什麼叫其他法律包括服役條例兩岸條例國安法等等只要它在依照其他法律規定所以只針對中國大陸嗎沒有針對有退休的這些的退伍的這些農民去大陸的一些言行老實講這裡面來講的話"},{"start":6735.029,"end":6749.316,"text":"這個你包山包海這裡面到時候行政權獨大這很嚴重跟委員報告其實我們的條文的規定其實就是綁在其他主管機關的法令例如國安法它違反國安法被剝奪了它的"},{"start":6752.238,"end":6770.811,"text":"停送之後我們這邊當然就喪失本條例所定的權益我們輔導條例只規定的是輔導條例所定的權益至於其他的這個他的一些罪責所以他的退休金全部扣就對了全部沒收那個是依照其他法律性沒有退休金的話還要被關是不是"},{"start":6772.552,"end":6789.38,"text":"那是其他法律規定的我們輔導條例只規定的是停止我們榮民的權益啦所以它這個是兩個部分是兩個不一樣的區塊你們要處理好喔這個東西處理到大家大家很容易觸法喔你現在來講的話現在一個極端喔現在一個極端喔你看海基會董事長都換人了這兩岸來講是越來越惡化喔說不定你以後去大陸回來就是被停停停喔"},{"start":6800.769,"end":6826.762,"text":"這個傷害國家尊嚴喔去大陸傷害國家尊嚴喔會不會啊那個副主委會不會我們就是做預告的讓他不要去觸法啦而不是讓他違法我們是預告通知讓他不要去來 我們來看今天的題目啊你針對武林農場 清淨農場福壽山 還有彰化 泰東等等的我看了一下勒"},{"start":6828.274,"end":6840.778,"text":"你們基本上都有獲利啦比如說武林獲利可是105年到109年過去平均超過2億最近都是7000多萬清淨農場逐年下降111年7000多萬112年4000多萬福壽山都是逐年下降有賺錢 但逐年下降怎麼辦啦 這個胡主委"},{"start":6850.609,"end":6854.75,"text":"我們剛剛都有做很多的檢討我們的產品很多產品很多我們盡量把我們的產品透過不同的平台把它發出去有一個基本的基本的條件你們的專業經理人太少了你們基本上當然我們是退輔會輔導輔導這個要退休的但是基本上來講你要引進一些"},{"start":6877.196,"end":6882.717,"text":"多元化要引進一些專業經理人才能夠把績效提升你現在看到這幾個今天主席排的這幾個都逐年下降跟委員幫我們農場是自營的一個場域其實都有聘有專業的經理跟婦理的專業人員你們有沒有考慮過乾脆以後VOT算了委外來經營"},{"start":6899.943,"end":6908.036,"text":"那委外有委外的場域你們有沒有考慮到這幾個農場要委外有沒有績效可能更好這幾個都非常好的地方績效來講逐年下降那就是大家吃大鍋飯這個樣子"},{"start":6917.746,"end":6925.789,"text":"我們委外有委外的地方啦像副業也是委外啊委外啦這個專業經理人要增加啦這個再怎麼樣雖然是照顧農民但是對於這些農民其實可以給他訓練嘛去外面上課啊增加經營管理的人力啊這個都有幫助嘛 對不對否則的話你只是說我要照顧可是事實上不要忘了"},{"start":6942.366,"end":6968.691,"text":"公司 企業就是企業 企業就是盈利為目的啦要賺錢啦 你不要看了一副你像那個歐興啊 榮工啊 現在都已經清算了嘛對不對 這都很清楚 清楚來看你們還是要有一套的機制啦好不好 還有特別是董監方面 高層方面不一定只有軍方嘛 這個東西讓人家感覺可以引進一些外部人士嘛 你同意嗎"},{"start":6971.471,"end":6976.075,"text":"謝謝賴世寶委員各位請回接下來進行巡達的委員徐曉新委員謝謝主席那我們是不是有請副主委來副主委請委員好"},{"start":6996.054,"end":7022.72,"text":"副主委你好我想今天大家都非常關心雖然我們看到其實我們退輔會的各項經營產品都非常的優秀我也一直都已經很支持但是大家今天都有提到各個農場遊客數減少的問題我們可以看到112年跟113年去做比較退輔會的農場遊客的人次統計表遊客數是大幅降低的"},{"start":7023.2,"end":7044.998,"text":"那再看到114年也就是今年喔那我們現在只統計到11月但是相較前兩年我們的入園人數仍然都在減少當中喔那我想副主委剛剛有談過這個原因很多跟我們的這個天災啊風災有關係嘛但是呢除此之外我們還有沒有其他的一些解決辦法"},{"start":7046.661,"end":7060.068,"text":"我們現在針對剛剛其他委員也有指導就是我們颱風也好強降雨也好之後我們對於道路安全的狀態我們會"},{"start":7062.449,"end":7091.429,"text":"在不同的平台裡面來跟大家做一個說明我問一下因為我們如果只依賴台灣的旅客前來觀光的話肯定跟其他的景點來說是不夠的我想先問一下就是說你們有沒有統計過我們一年以來不管你要用114年也是到現在的資料或者是說113年都可以任選你拿哪一個年度的數字出來"},{"start":7092.049,"end":7103.202,"text":"我想要問一下你們這個有沒有統計過日本韓國分別來到我們的所屬農場的遊客人次統計是多少"},{"start":7104.797,"end":7132.433,"text":"國外的旅客最近都慢慢增加我要問實際的數據當然我們能夠統計的都是住宿率住宿率因為住宿才有辦法登記他是國內外那旅客住宿我們有統計的資料是在110年的時候只有27間但是到今年114年到目前為止有700多間的住宿率所以他一直在提升的"},{"start":7133.086,"end":7148.36,"text":"那我問就是113年就我今天想跟你討論就是112 113跟114嘛你不要拿這麼久以前的資料來跟我們去討論不然我拿這個民國初年的然後告訴你說都沒有人來過那沒有意思啊"},{"start":7149.491,"end":7177.43,"text":"去年跟今年都在700的邊緣所以都在700的邊緣沒有顯著的提升但我在這邊要特別跟您說明像以台北市來說的話其實像是韓國的觀光旅客數來得非常多也就是說其實我們在台灣來講雖然現在我們也當然很希望能夠恢復整體的路客觀光但在政府整體施政的狀況之下沒有辦法做到我們在日韓旅客上面"},{"start":7179.531,"end":7197.759,"text":"觀光的人數那如果您講到的這個連續幾年大概都是在700多左右的話那顯然在這方面的成效來說呢是很不足的我們來看一下下一張的這個投影片裡面我們有提到我們並不是沒有參加國內外的旅展喔113年的時候我們在9月這個我們有"},{"start":7200.74,"end":7228.576,"text":"这个日本旅展的观光活动然后呢这个韩国新加坡马来西亚跟泰国我们也都有推广活动那所以我想要问一下我们编列了不少的行销预算来执行这一些我们的这个旅展无论国内外那尤其是邻近的东南亚国家那我想问这些农场是否有因为我们参展让旅客数的这个数量有所增加呢"},{"start":7229.349,"end":7247.022,"text":"我們有國外旅客的吸引有大概有兩個地方一個是剛剛委員講的就是旅展的部分我們都去參加第二個就是101大樓我們也有一年的我知道 這上次我已經問過了那我現在問的是說我重新問一下好不好114年"},{"start":7251.065,"end":7261.615,"text":"我們有韓國、新加坡、馬來西亞、泰國這四場的旅展我們的行銷推廣費用總共是多少錢總金額我們的預算數"},{"start":7269.478,"end":7296.355,"text":"統計完再跟委員報告好不好因為我們都有參加啦廢話 你有行銷預算你也不去參加那不就堵職了嗎所以你一定是有去的嘛那我現在想要知道的事情是說我們既然積極的參加很多的旅展那到底有沒有成效我們要看到的是成效因為我剛剛強調了一件事情如果我們只把視野鎖定在台灣的觀光旅客的話那顯然是極其有限的"},{"start":7296.975,"end":7316.816,"text":"既然我們也規劃了行銷預算這些行銷預算也都有通過也就代表說我們立法院都支持我們在這些農場上面能夠吸引更多的國際旅客我們也想知道東南亞國家是否有因為我們的參展讓外國旅客的數量提升你們回應的部分有幾點"},{"start":7317.637,"end":7341.369,"text":"那第一個是彰化農場跟台東農場沒有收取門票所以沒有入園的人數跟資料以及本會各農場沒有區分外籍客的票種所以沒有辦法統計遊客數字這兩個部分我希望你們可以改善就是說第一個沒有收取門票不代表沒有辦法統計就是來者是否為外國人士"},{"start":7341.869,"end":7370.103,"text":"我舉例來講如果今天是外國人他來到我們的農場我們可以給予外國民眾的這個優惠券可能是10塊20塊這個都金額不是問題重點是我們透過這樣的方式我們可以掌握到底每年來到我們園區裡面有多少的是外國旅客然後他有沒有增長的趨勢所以不見得你一定要收取門票才能去統計"},{"start":7371.224,"end":7400.664,"text":"第二個沒有區分外籍遊客的票種所以沒有辦法統計相關的數字這也是一樣的其實我們去很多國家旅遊我們都會知道我比方說好了如果你今天去泰國的百貨公司消費你是外籍的旅客你可以憑著你自己的護照到他的這個服務櫃台裡面他會送你專門的小禮物他就是一個很簡單的可能成本沒有多少錢的一個小錢包而已"},{"start":7401.224,"end":7424.491,"text":"可是它就因為你的這個領取贈品的舉動那它就可以統計那你是來自於哪一個國家然後每年有沒有增加所以這個部分我希望退服會可以用心在這個事情上面就是說我們要統計效益除了台灣的觀光人數之外外國的旅客我們希望它增加"},{"start":7425.071,"end":7441.299,"text":"所以我們必須要有一個相關的方式能夠吸引他們主動的讓我們知道他們是外國的旅客而且我們可以登記相關的數據所以這個部分希望你們可以回去研議有沒有可能透過一些比如說簡單的小贈品或是簡單的折價券然後可以提醒這些國外的旅客如果你是外國來的那我們歡迎你台灣人也會很認同"},{"start":7451.944,"end":7480.263,"text":"歡迎你來歡迎你來到台灣歡迎來到我們的所屬農場那我們有小禮物可以送給你但是當然他就是要去做登記嘛在登記的過程當中我就可以非常清楚知道他來自於哪個國家他什麼時候來的那這樣我們每年所收集的這個數據就會非常的珍貴未來你們去做旅展的時候你們才更知道說要去哪一個國家作為我們著重主力的一個發展對象來請回應"},{"start":7483.125,"end":7507.918,"text":"委員知道我們會這滿好的一個方法好 那麻煩你們這個去做一個規劃那接下來比較嚴肅的事情就是關於清淨農場我們發現你們在清淨農場上面有非常多的這個缺額似乎都有補不齊的現象比如說這個觀光行政組的行政助理兩萬九到四萬一西餐三廚 然後櫃台服務員"},{"start":7509.179,"end":7535.949,"text":"然後你可以看還有我表演助理也是有缺人這個缺額蠻多的所以我們看一下你們提供的本會各農場員工的編制表裡面可以看到的狀況事情是說退輔會其實有針對低薪的問題去做調整我覺得這個是要給予一個鼓勵的就是我們在質詢的內容你們是有聽進去低薪的部分確實有做調整"},{"start":7536.869,"end":7556.028,"text":"但是呢這個我們在這個除了彰化農場的部分是滿園以外其他各個農場都有長期缺額的問題像是武陵農場啊清淨農場啊福壽山等等的那請問一下這些長期的缺額的職缺額的具體原因應該要怎麼來改善啊"},{"start":7557.037,"end":7578.238,"text":"跟委員報告那切合部分我們都會用短期值待的方式來做補充那因為農場很多地方都是比較偏僻那我們也會慢慢的都在把員工的宿舍做個整修然後有關餐飲提供餐食"},{"start":7578.959,"end":7593.813,"text":"然後提供餐飲的那個彈性休假當然我也我們也都有發放營運獎金跟特別績效獎金的福利措施那這些都是希望能夠把這些這些員工給留下來好那我們希望這部分可以再接再厘農場的缺額那有這個補齊然後可能有代理"},{"start":7597.817,"end":7616.425,"text":"可是另外一件事情我覺得涉及到交通安全主席再給我一點點的時間因為這個議題比較嚴肅就是關於我們有轉投資的新興客運的問題我們現在的客運當然不只是新興客運但都出現工時長風險高公車客運駕駛嚴重短缺的問題"},{"start":7617.385,"end":7639.591,"text":"我們轉投資的新興客運缺額的情形也非常的嚴重我們可以看一下從112年113年到114年裡面其實原編額應該要列567人但是平均下市人數是494都400多左右缺額大概就是70萬去年就比較多一些那113年比較多到90"},{"start":7640.791,"end":7661.714,"text":"那114年因為只統計到10月而已也是有70幾所以我們這三年的屈額人數都在70以上那是否關於新聞有講到勞動條件的部分導致徵人困難他是針對全台北市的這個公車司機來做說明那我想要請問一下就是新興客運當然是我們這個推不會轉投資的事業"},{"start":7662.515,"end":7684.497,"text":"那在這個部分有缺額它會影響到的有可能會是市民朋友的安全因為當人數不夠那他可能勞動條件他可能在這個工時上面壓力等等的比較大的時候我們都不希望哪一天出現比如說新興客運然後可能有撞到人等等這樣的一個事情所以我想最後問一下副主委"},{"start":7685.117,"end":7699.491,"text":"在新興客運駕駛缺額一直以來都有70到90人的這個部分我們有怎麼樣的一個改善的機制那我們有沒有一個計畫比如說明年我們可以改善多少請詹要回答"},{"start":7700.611,"end":7727.882,"text":"我們公司其實都有按照台北市政府的要求把不管數位化也好啦或是排班精準的排班或者提升人力的運用或是彈性的來招聘臨時補充的人力那對駕駛的輪班工時其實都按照法規在走那這個我們會請公司針對剛剛委員所講的再提出更精進的做法把他的確認數一直收到百分之十以內"},{"start":7728.702,"end":7749.444,"text":"希望百分之十作為一個目標那希望明年齁那在這個時候可以達到你的目標好不好謝謝謝謝許曉清委員各位請回接下來進行詢問委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在下一個進行詢問委員陳冠廷委員"},{"start":7758.41,"end":7775.328,"text":"你好 我們請副主委副主委請副主委好我想要請教一下嘉峪分廠的進度所以說如果有其他的負責的同仁都可以一併上來接受諮詢"},{"start":7777.778,"end":7800.919,"text":"不准我们在嘉义大补乡的嘉义分厂他从去年的6月到前阵子我上次在咨询的时候总共已经办理了四次招商目前为止虽然都没有厂商投标不过好像有后续有一些厂商表达要去投标的意愿但还没有做这件事情目前办理的第五次投标是不是已经有相关的厂商送件"},{"start":7802.103,"end":7818.228,"text":"跟委員報告 委員一直很關心那個嘉義分廠的這個ROT案那因為我想那邊的狀況 委員應該也很清楚就是它是水源保護區 地方也比較偏遠交通也比較不方便"},{"start":7820.189,"end":7843.762,"text":"是比較招商降低了很多廠商的投資意願當然我們在這幾次的招標過程當中我們也做了很多的調整為了提高廠商的意願我們也陸續調整了招商的條件包含調降投資金額延長興建的時間不收取"},{"start":7845.163,"end":7864.968,"text":"固定的潛力金那也調整了履約的保證金從一千五百萬調到一千萬那也降低了一些投資的門檻就是希望能夠提高這個招商的意願但招商意願我們第四次的招商期間確實是有廠商反映他們資料來不及整備"},{"start":7866.068,"end":7880.437,"text":"所以說我們也農場也按照第四次的招商的一個公告的條件辦理第五次的公告那我們也積極在請能夠在明年的1月22號截止收件前能夠請廠商能夠把那個投資單送過來"},{"start":7887.489,"end":7904.244,"text":"好謝謝部署我們希望說在1月底之前它可以順利完成那我們這個嘉義分產有一個新的規劃那你剛說其實距離比較遠等等的我們大阿里山地區它其實離這個嘉義市也好或者主要的都市區它的距離也是很遠"},{"start":7904.764,"end":7933.572,"text":"但是我們最近都發覺到說隨著這一個觀光鐵道的這一個重新的運營之後那越來越多的外國遊客那全部都來去散散來去觀光然後再去使用當地的這些設備設施那所以我們知道說只要有相關的配套那一定有辦法把這一個地方經營起來所以我想請教一下那目前假設嘉義分廠它未來的這一個合作計畫它開始之後"},{"start":7934.232,"end":7959.191,"text":"目前有沒有聽到他們針對大埔的藍色公路有相關的包含停靠碼頭啊門票搭船等等優惠因為我們必須要有足夠的誘因才能夠吸引到廠商進駐來去經營嘛那誘因裡面有很多種一種就是跟整個我們大埔鄉他的水庫來去共生共榮藍色公路現在這個我之前在上週的交通委員會我邀請觀光署的時候"},{"start":7959.932,"end":7976.6,"text":"我們有提到南社公路南社公路是我們嘉義分廠旁邊的正溫水庫先前觀光署也有更新有更新它的碼頭跟觀光設施所以利用這樣子的基礎設施跟我們退股費的嘉義分廠招商之後提供更多的協助目前有沒有聽到相關的做法"},{"start":7977.806,"end":7996.141,"text":"謝謝委員因為其實我們在這個場域是配合地方推動大埔藍色公路油氣帶的計畫那當然深水庫的風景跟周邊的一些天然景象其實是蠻有誘因的也讓大家都很喜歡"},{"start":7998.223,"end":8002.626,"text":"那個地方其實我們都不陌生我們都經常會很關照那個周邊的一些環境那優惠這個因為還沒有跟廠商簽訂合約這優惠山應該是還沒有到細部的希望裡面我們的說法是什麼就是說我們在吸引各個廠商的時候"},{"start":8018.499,"end":8038.136,"text":"委員這個指導告訴他們說未來會我們已經有這些基礎設施了都已經都有小程包含生態旅遊 賞櫻等等的叫他們更勇敢的來去投資我們大埔鄉盡量把這個訊息廣傳出去因為這一定是有機會不管是營利然後又帶動觀光"},{"start":8039.591,"end":8063.453,"text":"因為我看旁邊的規劃已經以前是沒有 現在都有了遊湖 賞櫻 那些生態旅遊生態旅遊都起來我最近也看到很多甚至是遠從南非過來的釣客來到這個真魂水庫然後來去介紹透過YouTube透過這個社群的媒體來去介紹真魂水庫怎麼遊湖 怎麼賞櫻怎麼在那個秘境裡面遊玩"},{"start":8064.574,"end":8085.322,"text":"那這些結合起來我覺得對未來參與的廠商都很有幫助對大埔鄉民也很有幫助那不是只有週末才有人來其實平日就是一個很好的祕境所以還是希望這個副主委能夠強力的來去鼓勵更多人來去參與那再來這個副主委我們來討論一下農場績效"},{"start":8087.843,"end":8112.072,"text":"我想之前我們的幾個委員都有提到三個高山農場都是我們國旅的熱門景點不管是奔陽節 櫻花季 楓葉季都有很多遊客可是我們在農場的住宿服務是不是成本太高就是說看起來這五年來的住宿成本都還是大於收入"},{"start":8114.008,"end":8127.928,"text":"住宿成本不斷增加的原因是怎麼樣那我知道說退伍會我們提出的住宿優惠那一定要針對軍人 農民甚至過去疫情時間這個辛苦的勞苦功高的這些醫護人員來去回饋那我們是不是有辦法把它差異化針對一般的"},{"start":8129.19,"end":8154.38,"text":"觀光客 一般的國外旅客那我們做出價格的差異化讓我們最需要被服務到的這些軍人 農民過去的這些衣物我們一方面可以得到優惠但另外一方面成本上面可以有所管控特別是國外觀光客我們來到這些我們這些這麼好的這些旅宿的服務那我們也是希望說這些國外觀光客他們的觀光才能夠進入"},{"start":8156.1,"end":8182.555,"text":"而不是只是就是像說旅遊然後造成這個生態上面的一些成本沒有付出相應的代價所以我是把它分開來的針對軍人這些農民或者是農民的眷屬甚至是過去義務人員我們給予優惠但另外一部分國外的旅客必須要付出相應的成本來去享受我們的觀光資源這個部分想請教一下副主委怎麼看"},{"start":8183.876,"end":8201.921,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們對現役軍人還有農民的優惠是一樣的等同的因為現在的軍人就是以後的農民現在的農民就是以前的軍人所以說他們 我們軍人跟農民到我們農場去其實平日都是對折的"},{"start":8202.941,"end":8218.379,"text":"而且也很多優惠 那假日都是打八折啦其實門票幾乎都是收得很低 深圳沒有門票都免費的門票那當然我們碰到像軍人節啊 像農民節啊 像護士節啊"},{"start":8222.363,"end":8248.47,"text":"這醫生節我們也會有免費的住宿的一個時間來提供這些勞苦功高對社會貢獻比較多的一些人當然我們也做了很多公益活動包含一些對一些比較弱勢的團體我們也都會有給他優惠跟活動來幫助他們那針對國外的旅客國外旅客我們會在"},{"start":8251.432,"end":8264.023,"text":"開闊一些更多的管道跟平台來推廣希望能夠吸引更多的國外旅客到我們的農場來參觀"},{"start":8266.485,"end":8291.069,"text":"對 我剛剛提到的就是說我們看到現在越來越多的背包客外國旅客都來到台灣的很多著名的景點因為隨著我們國際地位提高那很多外國旅客現在都在增加當中那我剛剛講的是差異化的定價就是針對農民 軍人我們當然是要給優惠這是一定要的針對一般的外國旅客我們就要讓他付"},{"start":8292.202,"end":8306.707,"text":"享受觀光的成果之時也要付出相應的成本你就懂我的意思就是價格的差異化我想這是我們應該要注意的這樣才可以確保說我們的這些農場相關的設施都可以永續經營當然當你"},{"start":8308.388,"end":8337.968,"text":"做出來的品質越來越好的時候隨著你的性價比當然也會越來越高嘛你的價格也會越高你價格提供的越高的時候你就可以把我們的這些房市修繕的越好那你就可以成了一個正面的循環那就是消費性的循環那不是就是降低的這個價格然後來去這個不利多消沒有我們不用這樣子我們把價格做出來把品質也做出來那這是我認為國旅這是未來的一個必要性那我們能夠吸引到外國官方也是這樣的目的"},{"start":8338.768,"end":8356.238,"text":"這一次我看到有故宮百年的這個院慶的特別計畫我想除了我們是希望說我只是再補充一點因為我們來自嘉義故宮南院所以不是包裝上面有故宮展品之外我們可以把故事或者是特色結合比方說我們故宮南院它本身的建築物"},{"start":8357.138,"end":8371.968,"text":"當初從我們爭取的時代到現在它本身的建築物就是一個有藝術價格價值的一個我覺得是一個非常本身建築物就是一個可以作為這個意象的部分特別是故宮南院的特工版"},{"start":8372.628,"end":8395.166,"text":"我是很希望說未來有辦法做出來就除了以文物為導向甚至是可以故宮南院以這個嘉義整體的這一個故宮南院為他的意象來去做一個分享那就是商品的特色化在地化都可以出來也可以在我們故宮南院直接來去展售都是可以的就是我們希望"},{"start":8395.606,"end":8413.314,"text":"未來強強相加嘛就是這個互相這個拉抬把這個生意把這個生活把這個在地化的特色化做出來是 感謝 感謝謝謝委員 知道是好 謝謝陳冠廷委員各位請回接下來進行巡禮委員馬文君委員謝謝主席 麻煩請副主委副主委請"},{"start":8430.034,"end":8456.287,"text":"委員好副主委好副主委今天我們除了農場經營還有相關的這些產品行銷推廣精進作為以外我們還是很關切我們所有退府會相關的一些業務那我想請教一下退府會它所屬的八德等六所有彰化板橋 八德雲林 高雄跟馬蘭這些農家辦理"},{"start":8458.908,"end":8482.961,"text":"提升失智照顾量能长照望我园区中层计划它原来的期程是109年到112年总经费原来是10亿1000余万然后现在在111年底修正计划以后延长到114年然后从112到14总经费也调增到16亿8000余万"},{"start":8484.198,"end":8508.942,"text":"增加了大概6億多那本案在這個六所容家裡面除了彰化容家在111年已經完工以外現在到年底只剩下一週的時間我想請教因為十月份的業務報告裡面有特別說明雲林馬蘭及高雄容家可以如期在今年完工目前情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":8513.086,"end":8532.847,"text":"委員好 我是教養護署的副署長 由我來說明首先感謝委員關心 我們這個中城計畫當初在規劃的時候在初期因為預算編列不足 後來進行合訂經費都補足 目前高雄雲林還有馬蘭農家都已經完工"},{"start":8533.968,"end":8558.864,"text":"那個尤其是馬蘭跟雲林農開始收住了那收住的初期人員是比較少目前大概10床那高雄農家預計沒有關係 現在已經開始有收住的狀況就這三個農家高雄在過年前會開始收住對 這三個農家現在確定完工的是彰化跟高雄嘛還有馬蘭是不是還有馬蘭"},{"start":8561.966,"end":8566.911,"text":"是那板橋跟巴德榮家必須要延宕到明年的原因是什麼因為他的工程量體比較大那巴德預計明年五月那個跟量體沒有關係啊你這個從109年就已經開始規劃所以他延宕的原因是什麼因為你經費也增加了啊那目前延宕的原因比較具體的"},{"start":8584.426,"end":8608.756,"text":"當初招標之後因為當初編列預算比較不足補足之後招標的期程就是五個農家同步開始走其中板橋因為四層樓八德是兩層樓所以說他量體比較大所以他供期會比較晚大概半年到一年左右他什麼時候再招標出去我說板橋跟八德後來他什麼時候招標的"},{"start":8612.322,"end":8629.952,"text":"他招標時間大概是113年下半年左右113是是是現在到115預計明年什麼時候可以完成巴德是明年5月板橋上明年7月這兩家他們增加多少預算"},{"start":8632.725,"end":8646.242,"text":"沒關係會後再提供相關的資料好了我現在還要再請教的是這六所農家因為其實我們在整個十字園區還有相關的這些他的"},{"start":8647.372,"end":8666.052,"text":"整個建案其實可能都已經有延宕的情形可是我們更關切的是這六所容家他長照望我園區完成以後作業量能也會增加他相關的護理人員跟照護員他這邊的情形跟招募情形現在目前可以做什麼樣的說明嗎"},{"start":8668.457,"end":8690.738,"text":"謝謝委員對長期對我們護理人力還有照顧人力的關心那這三所農家完工之後在115年會增加240床的十字床位那我們的護理人力是長期在國內各領域都是比較吃緊的我們這幾年不斷的加薪在115年之後我們會改成約用人力那每一個"},{"start":8691.879,"end":8707.213,"text":"現在的委外都可以轉為這個 約用的造福員薪資大會調升大概五六千塊那目前呢 我們常態性的能力大概兩百五十個委外造福員都已經全數轉為約用能力在一百一十五年一月一號會上線"},{"start":8708.305,"end":8727.146,"text":"可是我們現在有看到一個問題就是我們本來核定的338元的護理人員還有像退補費近年在公務預算來看我們主要照護人力是照服員跟護理人員我們的需求是逐年增加"},{"start":8727.927,"end":8730.549,"text":"可是我們的造福人力從109年到114年度增幅是19.2可是我們人力缺口數是從259人擴大到374人它的缺口高達44%"},{"start":8747.165,"end":8751.467,"text":"你的人力需求增加19.2%可是你的缺口數卻高達44%其實這個你的拉鋸越大我們現在目前我們是用委外的那我們委外現在缺員的狀況為什麼會發生"},{"start":8763.092,"end":8779.397,"text":"因為你委外照顧不管是護理師還是照顧員他都有相關的配比規定我們容家又不能關床我們不像一般的醫療院所不像其他的單位私人的單位所以你在為什麼我們委外還有缺員這樣的狀況你都已經標出去了他可以缺員嗎不用照顧"},{"start":8785.183,"end":8801.186,"text":"我們標出去委外造福源標出去之後那個廠家他當然一定會廠商一定會積極來招募啦那原則上他招募不足的時候我們會用加班來補足我們需要的人力那我們也會按約來計罰那這是一個互相的一個"},{"start":8801.767,"end":8814.942,"text":"他計法的條件是什麼計法如果說譬如說他沒有到一定的比例他提供我的人力沒有到八成或八成五我就開始計法那因為我們也知道廠商在招募這些委外人力的不容易啦所以我們會互相來體諒當他來"},{"start":8817.104,"end":8838.512,"text":"我們招標的時候他就已經知道我們的要求你不能去設想他招標不易那你以後不是更嚴重你現在的床位你現在的需求一直在增加你又有實質園區又安寧未來還有其他的要照顧的你的農家的病床數就是這麼高你現在委外都已經缺員那以後怎麼辦你自行約用的時候怎麼辦不用照顧"},{"start":8842.233,"end":8860.792,"text":"或者本來一個人要照顧兩個或三個那以後要照顧五個六個是這樣嗎跟委員報告所以像我們護理的核心能力我們把它改回約用那希望它能夠穩定那委外照服員呢我們會持續提升他的薪水這兩年我們的薪資大概都提升兩千到三千提供兩次那目前的話"},{"start":8862.333,"end":8866.758,"text":"我們會持續來關注這個市場我們也謝謝委員的關心跟指導我們會朝這方面努力這不是我們用關心因為你明年就已經碰到了你明年馬上就要做而且很多你像現在是要自行約用可能他這個狀況會更加的嚴重你的應變計畫現在就已經要出來了因為很多人可能在2月明年過年嘛"},{"start":8885.157,"end":8886.841,"text":"那你在1月就大家可以領完那個年終獎金以後大概這個狀況就會發生了你的應變計畫是什麼"},{"start":8895.585,"end":8912.814,"text":"跟委員說明一般我們在你把提供書面好了因為你現在剛剛提到的就是說你要增加他的薪資薪資要提高到多少或者你要用什麼樣你不可能都用加班所有的你的薪資又比外面的少然後現在委外你都已經達不到這樣的標準你以後說要用加班的那更離譜因為他本身你在缺員的狀況之下他已經要照顧很多人那不是加班的問題"},{"start":8921.118,"end":8926.5,"text":"那不是量的問題而是你一次要照顧的人數就這麼多他24小時就是有這麼多人他就是需要被照顧那你怎麼有辦法說用加班去解決這樣的問題那是不對的所以我們希望可以提書面資料要有具體的做法我們希望有具體的做法應該要怎麼樣去改善這樣因為你在你有相關的這些社會責任"},{"start":8944.665,"end":8969.918,"text":"因為我們看到現在你16個容家只有4個滿編有12個都是缺員的狀況那未來會更加嚴重你像我們是委外的他照服員人數不足你說依照罰則老實說那個罰則可能對廠商罰的不太可能對他不太有辦法罰的到吧現在有罰過嗎有 有罰罰多少那個詳細的數字我們在提供有些會罰到幾十萬那我們"},{"start":8972.95,"end":8996.499,"text":"也會要求廠商把這個人力用加班方式來補足廠商成本也會增加其實我們看如果說廠商的用加班的方式對我們來說我們要的並不是這樣所以你在列有很多相關的一些合約或者這些法則我覺得可能都有很大的問題這個部分在書面資料也希望一併可以提供好不好"},{"start":8997.419,"end":9022.174,"text":"那另外就是我們現在的這個榮民榮券基金會我們最早其實他主要成立的是由王顧的榮民他的遺產去捐助設置的他主要目的跟業務是針對王顧榮民大陸地區繼承人申請遺產之核發第二個是榮民重大災害救助第三是侵含榮民子女教育"},{"start":9023.195,"end":9048.365,"text":"教育獎助學金第四個是榮民榮券福利跟服務事項這個可能主要會用到的大概現在比較多的可能是重大災害救助跟一般的福利服務事項我們現在想要請教的因為現在我們教育部其實為了要拉高就是要把拉平我們公司立學校所以他的獎助學金一學期大概都學雜費不好意思"},{"start":9049.465,"end":9067.348,"text":"主席我們用一點點時間因為他大概有一萬七千五百塊一學期所以兩個學期其實他大概加起來甚至就比我們的這個獎助學金還要高所以其實我們看到我們所有相關的這個資料111年還有4855個人申請到113年只剩他的那個實立學校只剩下一個"},{"start":9077.27,"end":9079.453,"text":"只剩下一個申請 原來實地學校有2600多個那你到113年只剩下一個 那今年0因為你17500跟10000 當然大家去領17500可是我們當初設置這個墓地主要是對於清寒"},{"start":9094.113,"end":9097.016,"text":"因為教育部給的是一致性的就所有的學生都有可是我們主要這個成立的目的而且是人家的遺產捐出來設置的我們可以用什麼樣變通的方式因為你現在可能有通膨有各方面我們可不可以用其他的營養金或者什麼其他的書籍的補助"},{"start":9113.832,"end":9116.233,"text":"可以讓我們的榮民榮券可以有這樣子的一個尊榮感因為他想要學習可是我們不要說這個錢通沒有用你們現在都拿來拍為電影以後我們在這裡強烈建議以後用公務預算不要再用這個基金因為這個基金的"},{"start":9133.703,"end":9148.571,"text":"這個數額其實並不多我們希望他就是真正落實照顧我們農民榮眷尤其在他生活產生重大變故或者像這些學生的一個照顧這樣子這個可不可以立即做修正因為這只要我們董事會決定就好了"},{"start":9149.331,"end":9170.345,"text":"來 請回答我們請秘書長來回答來 齋藥回答委員好非常感謝您關注我們照顧我們的榮民眷人跟子女事實上就是說因應沒有錯是因應政府的公私利拉基金的配套方案它是每年 每學年3萬5我們是2萬實際上是中間的確是有落差的而且它大於我們所以"},{"start":9170.925,"end":9183.864,"text":"施力來申請我們的人數減少那我們也曾經去考慮過如果說我們也跟政府一樣調到三萬五甚至優於來維持這些一些發放但從評估下來他一年的預算"},{"start":9185.066,"end":9188.488,"text":"要九千萬我剛剛有建議就是說你政府已經有這樣子的一個補助項目你可以另外因為我們這個只給親韓的學生所以你是不是可以另外給親韓的學生你比如說五千一萬他可能用不同的名目因為這個只要你們通過就可以了你不要把那些錢拿來用在別的地方這個可以立即做一些修正跟討論嗎"},{"start":9209.159,"end":9224.379,"text":"好 班委員我們按照委員的指導我們下去研究看看再跟您回報好了回去研議啦對啊 因為我們希望他的錢真的落實可以照顧到他是因為教育部是所有的學生都可以可是你變成我們所有榮民現在是領耶今年沒有人領耶"},{"start":9225.1,"end":9230.026,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望其實可以去落實到因為我們像我們基金會111年到115年度辦理的這個菁英圓夢計畫它國外的不管是到高中大學碩士博士我們都有補助"},{"start":9240.137,"end":9262.877,"text":"可是我們國內的也沒有這個也一併去考量 好不好就是大家有心學習你基金要用在對的地方好 謝謝謝謝委員馬文君委員那退會回去研議 盡速回報好 謝謝好 我們接下來進行詢問委員林倩琪委員 林倩琪委員 林倩琪委員不在林益君委員 林益君委員 林益君委員不在接下來進行詢問委員 林楚瑩委員"},{"start":9274.166,"end":9299.014,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請退府會副主委副主委請其他如果詢問到業務相關的出席委員好再請自行上台 早安好剛剛其實 昭偉在一開始的時候讓農場的這些商品可以有機會透過我們的國會頻道被全民了解我覺得是 本期是非常支持的 因為"},{"start":9299.895,"end":9313.494,"text":"我知道其實我們在農場的經營上面也都希望是能夠儘量的各自有獲利因為這個都是挹注到接下來我們的安置基金當中讓我們的這些退下來的這些"},{"start":9314.876,"end":9333.694,"text":"榮民朋友不論是就學或就醫上面非常重要的基金喔那麼但是在這個委員會在召開的同時在財政委員會其實現在也正在討論就是因為距離這個2026年只剩下十幾天不到這個不到十天那麼馬上新的年度就來了"},{"start":9334.375,"end":9360.705,"text":"那麼我們知道就是還有一些新增的預算如果2026年的預算沒有通過的話那麼這些新計劃就不能實施那這個部分本席也認為就是一方面我們要讓這個退役的弟兄榮民朋友們能夠有好的就業就學或是其他就醫的基金之外其實包括像很多東西也不是只是榮民朋友包括"},{"start":9361.765,"end":9379.446,"text":"這個全民也會受到影響的像這個北榮的新大樓這個是全民都在也需要使用到的這個部分其實我也希望利用今天委員會的時間也要讓關注這個議題的朋友也要知道就是其實這個退府會"},{"start":9381.008,"end":9402.988,"text":"尤其是像今天我們看到的這些農場啦雖然他是盈虧自負但是其實很多裡面涵蓋的東西也跟全民相關所以預算被卡住雖然可以依照2025年的計畫來做實行跟執行但是新的計畫就無法來實施這個影響到的其實不是只有榮民朋友是全民都有那另外一個其實"},{"start":9404.97,"end":9422.92,"text":"本席要提醒的就是像這個部分如果新的計畫無法實施的時候造成哪些影響我也希望退伏會要對外的讓民眾知道不然有的時候會認為說怎麼該做承諾要做沒有做那這個部分的話我希望退伏會副主委這裡要多來做說明不然的話這個鍋就變成是你們要杯"},{"start":9429.204,"end":9449.6,"text":"好那麼因為剛剛沈博洋委員已經問了那我就來詢問另外一個問題就是我知道我們退輔會全台有19所的榮民服務處那麼16間榮民國民之家榮譽國民之家那這些機構當然職員跟志工是長期在服務榮民那付出心血本席是肯定的但是"},{"start":9450.72,"end":9473.967,"text":"這種所謂的內部人員造成的所謂一顆老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥的這個狀況那就是在這些輔導員或者是甚至於是堂主堂長或者是志工隊的隊長然後堂長自己就類似監守自盜這樣的狀況其實是一直都發生的本席特別整理了從1993年"},{"start":9475.928,"end":9498.365,"text":"到現在2024年其實在不一樣的地方都有發生但是我們知道其實在相關的管理辦法當中就有針對榮民重要財務的作業原則那麼說如果超過一定的數額是需要奉長官簽核那因為時間有限我就就板橋榮家輔導員這個案子照理說"},{"start":9502.108,"end":9507.532,"text":"存摺 硬件 密碼應該是要分開來的但是為什麼這一個輔導員兼團長可以擅自針對三個榮民的存款然後來提出349萬元那麼問題到底是發生在什麼地方"},{"start":9524.227,"end":9533.42,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們主委也非常重視這個問題也親自開了一些檢討會那這個原因我要請那個業管處處理跟你報告"},{"start":9536.124,"end":9552.42,"text":"委員好,我叫我副處長跟委員說明就板橋這個案子這個輔導員他本身是一個專業設公司那我們是主動發掘因為在我們的集合過程中在交接的過程他因為執法犯法他利用這個下系來做這個"},{"start":9555.283,"end":9570.017,"text":"這個不道德的動作啦所以我們直接當時了解之後就把他約談他本來不承認後來我們跟他小禹大議之後他承認之後我們就移送這個這個廉政署那這個案子我們"},{"start":9571.417,"end":9600.872,"text":"發生之後我們就直接檢討我們大概在保管機和各方面那重新做了一個檢討在這些下系的部分已經做了一個補強把這些管理的機制這個監督方跟執行方把它區分那確實板橋農家在這裡面有一些在執行的時候沒有這麼落實因為他們在第一線的時候有時候執行就便衣行事我們會裡面除了召開這個教育訓練之外"},{"start":9601.372,"end":9605.793,"text":"我們每一個單位都在不斷的自我檢討每個月都會來查核這個事故我們希望以後不會再發生這樣的事情所以處長的意思就是說其實本來存單也就是存摺 硬件 密碼是應該分開的但是是因為這個板橋榮家本身他們就是有所謂的便宜形式的狀況其他的榮家沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":9628.757,"end":9632.739,"text":"那麼像這樣的狀況其實照理說應該是每年都至少要集合一次嘛那麼所以說你們是集合的時候發現的嗎那麼其他的容價會不會也出現同樣的狀況因為這個一旦這個事件發生是因為包括銀行的行員也覺得奇怪對不對然後回來通報嘛"},{"start":9648.948,"end":9659.975,"text":"那麼有沒有說同樣的狀況因為沒有特別去集合所以發現為了方便所以就把硬件存摺兩個放在一起現在其他的農家也都是分開的嗎"},{"start":9660.987,"end":9683.189,"text":"都是分開的那這個案子是我們當初在兩個單位在交界的時候主動發現的那我們會裡面的規定每年至少集合一次發生這個事情我們救養處也檢討對各農家我們要求在三個月內全部清查把所有的案子全部看一遍那目前來看的話缺失是有但是沒有這些弊端以後我們還會持續的來加強"},{"start":9685.387,"end":9711.992,"text":"好 那麼最後因為時間有限我只想問一個問題就是我特別去研究這個案子我為什麼只拿這個案子除了這個案子是發生在比較接近的時間點就是發生在2024年也就是去年的時候另外一個我覺得非常奇怪的地方是你們發現了之後那麼因為對檢方來講他認為他是同樣一個犯嫌但是他把這樣的一個犯刑"},{"start":9713.512,"end":9732.526,"text":"就等於是在好幾個我們的榮民身上來實施這個犯罪行為所以本來檢方是要求院方要處以重刑的但是因為他去自首所以反而變成了可以檢刑我想請問的是為什麼是讓他去自首然後而得以可以檢刑"},{"start":9740.576,"end":9766.582,"text":"這個不是一個我覺得在我們處理上面應該要好好來面對的犯罪行為嗎那這個過程當中有沒有問題照理說你們祖國主動發現主動移送他為什麼會變成自首因為我們知道我們在法律上面如果自首是可以予以減刑的那這個過程當中沒有上下交鄉賊嗎沒有想要袒護他嗎"},{"start":9771.84,"end":9799.407,"text":"跟主委報告 我是政務部處處長是那因為這個案子我們發現了以後我們就會說先做一個行政調查在還沒行政調查之前我們不知道到底事情怎麼樣因為在行政調查中我們在約談他的時候他就已經主動承認所以當然這個主動承認的部分我們當然就會詢問他你是不是願意自首那他也願意自首所以我們就帶著他到廉政署去自首那也是這個動作讓他有減刑的機會"},{"start":9800.367,"end":9807.344,"text":"那基本上就是因為我們在做行政審查他就已經承認了那既然已經承認的話當然就是按照有的步驟去做處理"},{"start":9809.113,"end":9832.399,"text":"我本席在這個部分我覺得他是一個錯誤的示範當然你們為了方便查案所以說好就跟他詢問然後呢就讓他自首但是我為什麼說是個錯誤的示範那會變成是教導這些未來想要犯罪的人我查到了我竟然被抓到了我就自首然後退府會會帶著他去自首他原本是應該檢方基本上本來認為說這個"},{"start":9838.035,"end":9850.331,"text":"范嫻她是屬於想像競合犯就是一個犯罪行為觸犯數個罪名但是因為帶著去自首反而最後呢是踐請減輕其刑"},{"start":9853.393,"end":9870.105,"text":"那我自己個人認為啦在這個質詢台上我把這個點出來是我當然知道退府會站在你們希望能夠結案或者是說把讓他認罪的狀況底下你們認為他已經認了罪但是我相信他也是證據確鑿在這個部分我認為不應該讓他以自首來做處理"},{"start":9876.573,"end":9903.693,"text":"是吧跟主委報告他並不是自己真的主動跟委員報告他並不是真的自己主動說我有錯了其實還是被退府會有揪出來了嘛是吧是 在剛開始調查的時候其實我們不能確認他是不是真的有犯罪啦所以在調查過程中他願意承認基本上就應該給他機會這也是廉政署一直要求我們要做的如果他願意主動承認基本上這是新華上面一個標準的程序好啦 反正我自己認為來自這個過程當中喔"},{"start":9905.694,"end":9913.483,"text":"再來還有就是我最後一個因為主席站起來了我是最後一位所以說我也希望這個會議趕快結束第一我認為在這樣的處事的過程當中你們給他自首你們等於就是也認為他在最後一刻翻然回物"},{"start":9920.851,"end":9938.335,"text":"但是他其實是一錯再錯三錯我們認為應該如此處理當然這個判刑的部分就要由院方來做決定這個自首是不是真自首我們尊重法院的判決第二個我詢問的是他被發現之後是停職嗎因為後來114年才免職嘛對不對對他發現之後我們就把他記大過就把他那個免職了"},{"start":9945.001,"end":9961.716,"text":"所以就是免職了那這個部分我認為未來你們在處理類似的案件的時候還是要審慎的斟酌到底是不是真自首好嗎謝謝林楚瑩委員退府會跟我們針鋒師要了解自首有一個要件"},{"start":9963.368,"end":9977.136,"text":"不要預約那個要件如果是你們調查查資那叫移送那如果我們手上沒有證據在誘導他他願意用自首的方式那其實也不用正方式查了直接帶去相關檢調了"},{"start":9978.277,"end":9997.369,"text":"所以如果在過程當中把一個經過陣風機制查出來的人轉成去尋求自首我相信檢察官如果看了我們今天詢答他也會回去審視那一段有沒有私相授受不要為了人情自己踩到法律的線這個提醒各位好 請回 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Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T13:07:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T13:15:31+08:00","duration":507,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.92534375,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.56659375,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":2.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.236593750000001,"end":9.447218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.278468750000002,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.290968750000001,"end":13.919093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.10471875,"end":14.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.67846875,"end":15.066593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.06596875,"end":25.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.254718750000002,"end":31.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.11909375,"end":30.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.75596875,"end":41.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.602843750000005,"end":52.140968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.875968750000006,"end":47.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.680968750000005,"end":60.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.477218750000006,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.721593750000004,"end":63.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.49284375,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.43346875,"end":70.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.80471875,"end":72.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.93096875,"end":87.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.37596875,"end":88.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.42659375000001,"end":87.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.96221875,"end":101.34846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.40471875,"end":93.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.18409375,"end":102.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.58034375000001,"end":102.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.93471875,"end":102.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.95159375,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.96846875,"end":103.00221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.03596875000001,"end":103.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.06971875,"end":111.86159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.86159375000001,"end":112.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.68846875000001,"end":116.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.38409375,"end":125.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.54721875000001,"end":127.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.56409375000001,"end":135.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.61784375000002,"end":132.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.26721875,"end":147.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.56471875,"end":149.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.78409375,"end":156.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.74159375000002,"end":151.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.59346875,"end":155.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.87971875000002,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.46596875,"end":162.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.56721875000002,"end":159.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.68909375,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.70596875,"end":163.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.60846875000001,"end":166.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.53659375,"end":166.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.60409375,"end":166.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.46471875,"end":168.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.18596875,"end":171.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.25346875000002,"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什麼都不能談啊所以我們還是希望立法院所以這看起來不像是這個新新計畫嘛"},{"start":192.754,"end":210.795,"text":"就是說延續性的計畫延續的經費增加增加額度也不能動增加額度也只能針對這個去年度的額度對 去年度的額度所以我們還是希望說在討論這個的時候也希望說整個總預算這關係到這個全國農民的權益為什麼我很難想像為什麼重要的"},{"start":212.116,"end":238.739,"text":"從來沒有那麼晚復違過而且院長還沒有來報告過對這是十幾年來我在立法院從來沒看過這種狀況對 這也是我剛才跟很多委員講我們一方面在討論說希望能夠有更多的經費支持農民但是另一方面預算都不省的時候我們很多東西是不能做的是啊 那是你立法通過這個預算沒有辦法省沒有辦法通過你也只能用對 也是用舊的部分"},{"start":243.319,"end":261.588,"text":"這個狀況我覺得很憂心這種對國家的制度完全是漠視甚至是破壞我覺得是非常對國家的制度的破壞對人民福祉傷害我想這個是不可我認為是不可原諒"},{"start":263.277,"end":289.904,"text":"不可原諒因為這些錢都是用在這個人民身上又有國家建設上面對 以農業部的立場我們的經費如果委員有任何意見我們都很樂意去進行討論跟溝通啦但是連那個機會都沒有是所以我們這個針對今天主要的兩個針點就是說你這個額度的調整額度調整就一定要按照這個在現行的調整機制之下看看這個其中的檢討時間點放在哪裡那"},{"start":292.245,"end":312.447,"text":"檢討的依據是什麼這個部分這個部裡面的看法是怎麼樣我們這樣子因為現在本來是每四年的CPI調整一次但是我們考量到這幾年來的CPI的浮動性蠻不確定性蠻高的所以我們建議說就是四年裡面有一個其中的一個檢討機制大概定在兩年就去檢視一次"},{"start":313.228,"end":335.358,"text":"然後檢視的時候看這個CPI如果CPI如果達到一個3到5%的時候我們就應該馬上啟動因為3%是大家可以忍受的如果超過3%以上可能對於整個的一個穩定生活的穩定有影響那如果我換個角度來看你不要設期中你就把整個檢討時程把四年縮成兩年"},{"start":337.818,"end":366.432,"text":"我想我們原來的設計還是四年然後另外如果說兩年的時候又要一個門檻的時候那很有可能一個情形如果他四年是4%然後前面兩年是3%調了嘛那後面1%以現在我們設計還可以調但是以後就不能調了如果說沒兩年就不能調那你期中檢考的這個依據是什麼大概CPICPI我們是期待3%到5%然後到時候在委員這邊看怎麼討論達到一個比較好的"},{"start":367.759,"end":391.458,"text":"所以這個抱怨的版本是大概3%到5%對那另外這個排富的部分也是大家所關心的那怎麼樣來調整這個排富的相關的規定排富的部分分為三個部分第一個部分是所得的部分現在是50萬嘛那因為過去沒有隨著CPI調整所以我們這次希望一次到位大概有將近16%可以調整"},{"start":392.919,"end":420.331,"text":"那這樣的話第一個把所得就處理了那另外一個是財產的部分那財產這部分大部分是根據土地公告限制那過去從100年開始也一直都沒有100年都沒有調整那現在已經累積了大概百分之六十幾的部分那我們也希望說他一併能夠調整包括我們的自用住宅的部分那如果按照你這樣說明我了解如果這個按照國民黨提案到一萬五你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":421.437,"end":450.331,"text":"我覺得以財政負擔以公平性還有以其他的社福基金的橫平性來講還有他調高的一次性調高的那個比例我都覺得不太適合最重要的是財政負擔的部分大概每條1000塊就會增加63億所以你如果到15000現行是8550對那現行是大概一年經費大概不到30億那你如果按照這個國民黨版本是要15000要增加到多少"},{"start":450.791,"end":454.542,"text":"大概437億 哇 增加幾倍多囉"},{"start":457.102,"end":480.332,"text":"那你再增加你如果按照今年度的這個老農今天的這個我們現在目前發的老農今天就502億了我們現在一年大概就是500多億了如果再增加到15000的時候又增加了400多億那加起來就將近900億那整個農業部的預算裡面現在目前依法律支出將近有800億一定排擠這一定排擠所以"},{"start":483.593,"end":505.718,"text":"做这个东西我们还有很多配套的作为调的机制要建立起来建立起来要有一个公平性对这个也是我们希望说设计一个比较长久的一个制度性的部分建立一个公平性不是漫天喊价漫天喊价我觉得太不科学也太不理性所以我们希望说有一个比较好的制度我非常准时的谢谢"}]}},{"id":"17149","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17149","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd6f793b294c435070ef019ba90975c37a3fa04411479d882ae173f420e06da8555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會及國家通訊傳播委員會就「社群平台打詐成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【12月22日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-24T08:39:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T12:09:00+08:00","duration":12595,"影片長度":"03:29:55","委員發言時間":"08:39:05 - 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我們持續推動政府專屬短碼簡訊截至114年11月累計已發送超過9千萬則簡訊透過科技的手段逐步建立完善的阻詐機制"},{"start":1478.871,"end":1490.933,"text":"在商业面我们透过制度设计将业者的房价作为与品牌信任连结许多业者已经加入我们的好人队行列例如Meta主动运用AI科技"},{"start":1492.7,"end":1518.699,"text":"目前已經主動移除了超過780萬則針對臺灣的詐騙廣告以及訊息此外LINE與本部合作推出政府LINE官方帳號認證機制民眾只要認明藍色盾牌標誌以及完整標示的公務人員職稱與姓名就能快速辨識公務帳號的GENUI同時也新增再次登錄的功能當帳號遭到詐騙集團盜用時"},{"start":1521.221,"end":1543.736,"text":"可协助用户很快的取回账户的控制权在游戏点数方面我们的防诈措施包含OTP验证 异常监控 限额与警语 客服支援从112年至114年游戏点数诈骗案件下降已经有70%拦阻的金额超过2.9亿元"},{"start":1545.424,"end":1562.677,"text":"再來在第三方支付方面我們採跨部會聯防銀行與超商雙向控管為登錄不得營運並建置虛擬賬號查詢平台查核覆蓋率百分之百裁罰與廢止登錄案件以排除高風險的業者"},{"start":1565.017,"end":1582.893,"text":"社群平台是民眾接觸詐騙的主要管道之一速發部將持續從法律科技與商業三管齊下要求平台落實責任持續強化跨部會合作與公司協力降低民眾受害的機率守護國人的財產安全以上報告"},{"start":1592.264,"end":1612.481,"text":"好我們再請行政院打擊詐騙指揮中心王崇盛執行秘書來報告主席及各位委員各位先進大家早安"},{"start":1613.328,"end":1642.487,"text":"行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心就社群平台打詐成效提出專案報告 請各位不失指教有鑒於民眾誤信網路投資廣告燒炸的情形嚴重為了從源頭遏止政府於112年6月有修正了《證券投資信託及顧問法》第70條之一要求網路投資廣告要採實名制並規範平台業者應要落實事前審查及事後下架的義務"},{"start":1643.648,"end":1668.346,"text":"政府進一步於113年7月三讀通過炸氣犯罪危害防治條例納管了網路廣告平台並將網路廣告的防炸作為列入新世代打擊炸氣策略行動綱領的核心並於綱領2.0版中新增了防炸面向強化數位經濟產業治理期望能透過法規修訂與政策引導雙管齊下從原初阻斷炸氣資訊的流竄"},{"start":1670.845,"end":1699.572,"text":"那個相關數據已走勢詐欺犯罪防治條例自一一三年八月十四至今詐欺案件的發生數與財損數已有逐步下降的趨勢金桶計與網路廣告相關連最高的假投資詐騙案件從去年八月與到今年十月比較發生件數減少了百分之六十七財損數下降到百分之七十一顯見針對詐騙廣告進行源頭壓制已有初步成效"},{"start":1701.294,"end":1726.307,"text":"在有關於平台業者的推動措施以及執行成效部分那數位發展部就法律面 科技面及商業面三館旗下持續推動反詐作為因為相關內容剛剛林部長已經有報告請各位長官參閱執行成效部分網路詐騙通報查詢網截至本年的11月30日總計受理通報47萬余者疑似詐騙訊息其中23萬余者確認為詐騙狂"},{"start":1731.194,"end":1751.8,"text":"詐騙訊息然後進行通報下架內政部警政署刑事警察局從去年8月至本年11月已經通報Meta社紮廣告11萬余折Google社紮廣告4千余折及LINE的社紮帳戶9萬余筆平台業者均依法規定配合下架有效減少民眾接觸詐騙風險"},{"start":1753.681,"end":1780.964,"text":"金融建築管理委員會督導臺灣證券交易所等單位主動於網路上收報 涉詐假投資廣告從12年4月起至今年12月19日後總計收報下架了涉詐廣告共10萬余折有效減少民眾接觸詐騙資訊的機會至於打造經濟作為部分生化平台業者公司協力落實源頭管理"},{"start":1781.803,"end":1809.963,"text":"本院打炸中心於今年召集平台業者召開三次會議針對廣告防禦機制高風險戰後處置自律防炸策略及普發現金施炸宣導的議題深入研商後續我們將持續的督促業者配合風險調整政策精進辨識詐欺手法局演變樣態落實數位產業源頭反堵以守護國民財產安全政府與平台高層會面"},{"start":1811.058,"end":1835.481,"text":"今年META與LINE公司的高層也分別來訪本院溝通打詐策略 共享資安情報以及增進防制詐騙機制等本院也鼓勵平台業者高層持續定期參與研商第三 公告詐騙被害人所接觸的網路廣告平台業者本院內政部預定於明年1月起於每月在165打擊"},{"start":1836.789,"end":1857.015,"text":"把165打在儀表板中去公告詐騙被害人所接觸到的平台希望能透過數據統計讓民眾能瞭解哪些平台具有高風險需提高警戒性並促進業者建築更安全的網路平台環境協議打在沒有終點還有無數的挑戰等著我們"},{"start":1857.728,"end":1860.033,"text":"面對詐團技術上的不斷演變政府會持續地針對各種詐騙手法及涉詐廣告樣態進行滾動檢討並協同平台業者共同精準"},{"start":1868.311,"end":1890.518,"text":"精進各項防詐措施 積極防治詐騙並將協助民眾及時掌握詐騙的正確資訊辨識可疑詐騙行為共同提升全民罰債一致以自我保護免疫力希望能透過政府與社會的共同努力有效遏止詐欺犯罪營造一個安全安心的社會以上報告請各位委員指教"},{"start":1898.834,"end":1925.195,"text":"好 謝謝 那其餘機關所送書面報告皆列入記錄 刊登公報我們現在開始進行詢答 先宣告以下事項 1 詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘 列席委員4分鐘 2 委員發言登記於10點30分截止 3 各委員如有臨時提案 請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診 4 暫定10點30分休息10分鐘"},{"start":1942.742,"end":1966.24,"text":"好 現在我們先進行巡打先登記第一位的洪孟楷召委執行好 主席謝謝 麻煩請我們速發部林部長好 速發部林部長"},{"start":1972.912,"end":2000.851,"text":"部長好委員早安部長詐騙以及數位平台的一個治理跟讓國人安心我想這都是非常重要的事情是我們先想請教一下上個禮拜五其實在國內發生1219這個無差別的暴力攻擊事件是也造成人心惶惶是其中這一個凶嫌1219這個凶嫌他去購買了相關的不管是煙霧彈不管是這個瓦斯噴槍等等的東西他都是透過網路購物"},{"start":2003.533,"end":2012.932,"text":"現在警方也去做一個通盤的釐清發覺是說這一些網路購物基本上都是依法可以販售但是也衍生了一些問題就是說有些"},{"start":2013.886,"end":2042.321,"text":"正常的生存遊戲玩家或者說軍用品店它其實賣煙霧彈它並不是要造成恐慌而是真的可能野外求生需要使用那大家會覺得是說如果說在網路平台上面可以任意購買那它捏造一個理由就可以來購買到其實無形當中也怕後續會有模仿效應等等所以有人提倡是說是不是要通盤的來檢討甚至說在網路上販售這一些相關產品也需要有實名制"},{"start":2043.201,"end":2069.344,"text":"部長你認為呢是 關於這個實名制這件事情當然是說如果我們在網路上實施實名制像中國大陸他們的做法那的確是可以有效的嚇阻犯罪但是另外一方面也會有隱私的問題因為我們台灣是一個自由民主法治的國家我們對於這種議題我們比較精神歐美國家怎麼做歐美的話據我了解譬如說我在美國購買什麼東西都不用在Amazon上面都不用但歐美的槍支"},{"start":2070.285,"end":2088.024,"text":"他就是完全殖民 一定要有license才可以但是槍枝的部分其他的部分就是說這一些像煙霧彈我們以前沒有想過煙霧彈它會造成這種恐怖攻擊恐慌嘛想說是應該生存遊戲玩家等等但目前現在已經看到它就真實發生在上個禮拜五"},{"start":2088.524,"end":2102.681,"text":"是 那我們現在速發部打算是第一個就是說對於特殊的這些品項就是有這個安全疑慮的品項我們會跟各個部會譬如說跟內政部跟衛福部我們跟他合作第一個就是說可能有些品項我們會"},{"start":2103.622,"end":2128.505,"text":"真的是会采取实名制的方式然后在领货的时候因为我们现在速发部推出一个数位凭证皮夹那我们可以在网路上认证你的身份然后再譬如说你如果到超商去领货的话那也是可以在超商利用这个数位凭证皮夹的功能去认证这个身份这个事情我们有在讨论所以部长刚刚讲到两点第一就是说本企业不是无条件的所有网路购物都要实名制是没错"},{"start":2129.745,"end":2149.699,"text":"該給國人基本的消費者的權利或者是說你購買的隱私證本期覺得尊重但是就是您剛有提到現在是先政府部門先討論有哪些品項可能它會確實有一些風險以及危險性存在還有就是說它應該是在特殊管道譬如說生存遊戲玩家他一次買個兩個四個煙霧彈"},{"start":2152.06,"end":2177.119,"text":"這沒有問題但如果說他一次買一箱兩箱然後他沒有辦法說明理由他也不是幫團隊買的那可能我們就會懷疑是說你一次買一箱兩箱囤貨你要幹嘛對不對完全同意委員的看法是 所以說我們會檢討什麼樣的一個品項再來就是說針對跟社群平台業者拍賣平台業者也來討論是說那我們怎麼樣來加強這個實名制甚至您剛剛有提到就是速發部最近提到的數位憑證皮夾來做一個連結"},{"start":2180.242,"end":2189.55,"text":"什麼時候這些會進行因為我知道內政委員會在禮拜一的時候也有開會也有說要討論這個實名制的一個部分那所以什麼時候會確認哪一些品項要"},{"start":2190.475,"end":2215.732,"text":"一個list因為這個品項應該是各個主管機關譬如說那個槍支可能是我了解是內政部內政部然後藥品的話其實現在最大的問題是在藥品這個是衛福部那我們找他們開會那另外我們訴發部這邊主要是所以訴發部我們比較積極主動負責一點因為網路上是一個現在很多人就會匿名買到東西或是說他假冒他的身分買東西"},{"start":2216.593,"end":2240.437,"text":"事實上跟委員報告就是在禮拜一我們已經找了台灣的幾個主要的網路平台我們已經跟他開會那其實在會議中我們也談到這些事情那幾個國內本土的電商都非常的積極主動他們也主動提到這件事情他們希望說由我們速發部這邊來主責然後他們願意全力配合好 所以速發部可以在多久時間內把這件事情確認一個月內是不是"},{"start":2241.413,"end":2266.179,"text":"一個月內當然是說我們這個只能是一個規劃就是當然要實施的話可能還要牽涉到立法但是一個月內找相關部會先把list列出來然後也找平台因為你講說禮拜一本席肯定你的作為因為禮拜五 1219發生這個事情禮拜一我們速發部就找相關的平台來去先做初步的討論那怎麼樣把它媒合起來讓"},{"start":2269.411,"end":2282.058,"text":"99%我想要買東西的都可以在網路上順暢無虞但是我們也利用這個機會把有心人士故意你買這個東西來是要製造恐慌的我們把它給阻絕掉至少多"},{"start":2283.238,"end":2312.078,"text":"障碍多一個成本讓他在購買的時候就會想說很不容易購買而增加他的一些困難度是不是 沒錯事實上這個有分成兩個部分第一個就是說有些品項我們是希望說在購買的時候就限制你必須先證明了身分你才能去買那另外就是說有些品項我們是希望說你購買了以後我們留下足夠的那個機證到時候出事的話我們警政機關可以把你這個人找到"},{"start":2312.518,"end":2328.755,"text":"那這樣的話也是可以阻絕一些犯罪好 所以說這些品項的一個清單以及因為你剛剛講說有些品項如果說還需要有身分認證的話那可能說不定還牽涉到修法或者是說可能是經濟部等相關部會的一些夜館所以訴發部主動來找相關部會來開會把它釐清"},{"start":2330.877,"end":2358.085,"text":"一個月內至少有個方向出來讓國人可以知道後續要怎麼走好嗎好 沒問題 謝謝再來另外第二個部分就是在這一次發生這個1.219的隨機殺人事件之後其實網路上有很多模仿的訊息是我完全沒有辦法接受本期完全沒有辦法接受你是用什麼開玩笑 算命 夢到來去散播這樣子的一個謠言這個不應該是在這個時候造成社會的恐慌是"},{"start":2359.145,"end":2385.87,"text":"我想請教在這一個部分裡面速發部有沒有什麼樣的一個因應未來如果說造成一個重大社會事件的時候來去散佈這樣的謠言我們能夠怎麼做跟譬如說網路平台我不是要做言論的審查跟控管可是當已經出現模仿效應或錯誤威脅的資訊的散播的時候能不能跟社群平台來溝通至少短時間內它的觸及這樣子類似"},{"start":2389.071,"end":2413.241,"text":"的惡意的訊息要觸及要先降低來做一個查證來 部長非常同意委員的看法處理這類的訊息我們有兩個層面第一個在法律的層面如果說這個訊息本身它就已經觸法了各個主管機關就會通知我們訴發部或者是由我們訴發部就會通知各個平台他們就有責任有法律的責任必須下架"},{"start":2413.681,"end":2431.107,"text":"那另外一個是各個平台都有他們的社群守則像是Meta Facebook他們就有他們的社群守則那社群守則因為這是商業行為那我們會第一個我們會跟他們商討確定他們的社群守則裡面要盡到他們的社會責任把這些下架那他因為"},{"start":2431.727,"end":2449.131,"text":"如果是透過社群守則的話他們通常會用AI的方式然後也會用自動化的方式先一旦偵測到有疑似這種製造恐慌或者是不當的言論他們就會降低觸及或甚至直接先本席為什麼會提這一點因為本席記得應該是兩三年前是"},{"start":2449.771,"end":2469.721,"text":"國外發生校園的槍擊事件當時的兇嫌還用直播的方式所以當直播的方式看到的時候社群媒體平台馬上把那個直播第一封閉第二降低觸及因為他看到的是血腥的畫面直播他不可能讓一樣很多人馬上進來觀賞"},{"start":2471.022,"end":2499.793,"text":"對不對所以一樣這一次1.2.1.9這個兇嫌他可能他犯案的時候沒有開直播但是相關的畫面以及後續本席要強調的是後續造成什麼在捷運上有什麼供給的預告在高鐵上有什麼供給預告徒增社會的動盪跟不安以及這完全錯誤的訊息我們都應該要由司法單位來去做研辦並且也應該要跟社群媒體平台溝通就像您剛所講的對不對"},{"start":2500.473,"end":2526.553,"text":"好來最後我也再一分鐘的時間現在小紅書當然我實在話講每一個社群平台我都要一樣的標準沒有任何我不允許任何人用社群媒體平台來去做詐騙的工具但也一樣我們要對症下藥就不是說只是意識形態但是沒有對症下藥我請教什麼時候小紅書我們現在要求說要把他APP給關掉"},{"start":2527.888,"end":2556.843,"text":"目前並沒有說要把APP關掉這個不然我們之前討論都是討論不是內政部不是講說小紅書要求他要下架要關掉然後不能讓國人來看是這件事情是由內政部決定然後執行的機關是TWNICTWNIC是一個法人機構那監管機關是出發布那我們就是既然那據我們的了解就是"},{"start":2557.843,"end":2574.318,"text":"就是內政部發文給TWNIC要求的是封阻一個網域一個Domainnet那並沒有要求TWNIC把那個小紅書的APP下架那詳細的情況可能要問內政部因為我們現在看到說實在要問內政部今天的官員是誰"},{"start":2576.471,"end":2599.225,"text":"內政部是我們詐欺犯罪防治中心的主任我不知道說您了不了解沒關係來部長我還是強調我們過去到現在因為馬上上12月初很多國人就在討論就是說速發部自己做的打詐通報平台90% 80%都來自於同一個媒體同一個集團對不對"},{"start":2600.706,"end":2621.117,"text":"那結果你不去動百分之八十九十的這一個打詐騙的一個管道你反而動一個你們在速發的通報平台裡面沒有選項的小紅書讓國人就覺得奇怪你是大炮打小鳥還是你只是選擇性的辦案還是你政治意識形態這是第一個第二個本席要問"},{"start":2621.917,"end":2648.653,"text":"那從12月5號開始內政部說要把這個網域給關掉那到目前為止我們打詐的成效快一個月了我沒有看到有具體的數據啊我們有很明顯的顯著的因為我們政府把小黃書關掉把小黃書讓他不能用打詐的名義讓他不能使用之後我們的詐騙通報的數量有大幅下降嗎你有沒有看打詐儀表版"},{"start":2649.805,"end":2674.046,"text":"這個禮拜 上個禮拜二是 也是內政部嘛但是速發部有沒有統計你們自己的通報有沒有減少有沒有減少這一個月有沒有突然間大幅的減少在我們網站通報查詢網上面的統計還是以Meta它的那個Facebook還有Thread它最大宗那至於那個是嘛 你自己也承認他們是最大宗嘛"},{"start":2676.588,"end":2690.803,"text":"結果我們去一個遮蔽一個在你的通報平台裡面通報系統裡面完全沒有選項的小紅書不覺得很本末倒置嗎那再來打在儀表板上個禮拜一15號2億6千多萬被詐騙禮拜二"},{"start":2699.219,"end":2721.044,"text":"一億八千多萬被詐騙我講最近的這個禮拜一一億四千多萬內政部來部長我不是要洗你臉你放心我只是要讓你知道這個事情的荒謬內政部那個負責的然後這個小紅書這個決定也是內政部政府不是應該一致嗎來 部長好 部長我只最後一句話讓你知道"},{"start":2721.684,"end":2743.35,"text":"本席還是開宗明義強調你放心 我今天不是讓你在這邊就是蒙受不白之冤但是政府是一體的數位發展部有數位發展部的功能國內也對數位發展部有所期待所以如果說當真正打詐本席為什麼今天會列社群媒體平台打詐成效的時候我希望是所有政府部門一起動起來"},{"start":2744.73,"end":2765.061,"text":"要求 強力要求社群媒體平台真的不能再有詐騙廣告在上面有 你們就是幫兇就是這麼簡單感謝部長好 謝謝我們洪孟楷召委的執行現在請我們李坤澤召委執行"},{"start":2773.257,"end":2777.163,"text":"謝謝趙委 請一下林部長來 林部長請 謝謝"},{"start":2783.541,"end":2810.948,"text":"委員長 部長好完善社群平台的防詐措施保障人民的財產安全是我們共同的基本責任那依照詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第三節就是數位經濟的防詐措施在數位經濟的防詐措施裡面蘇發部是扮演重要的角色那當然要落實這種平台的防詐"},{"start":2812.089,"end":2815.586,"text":"平坦的落地跟平坦的納管是一個重要的一個"},{"start":2816.739,"end":2844.873,"text":"我們目前對於平台落地跟平台落管蘇華部所掌握的狀況以及處置的情形來簡單說明一下目前就是像我們已經納管的基本上有四家公司 七個平台這四家公司分別是Meta Google Line以及TikTok它這個平台包含Thread Facebook"},{"start":2845.613,"end":2856.011,"text":"還有META那基本上這個都已經在台灣都已經有設立法律代表了那這是我們目前辦理的狀況"},{"start":2857.242,"end":2886.234,"text":"那相關的業者如果依照詐欺犯罪危害防治條例相關的業者他們也有相關的責任那這些相關的責任是什麼目前執行的狀況呢主要在法律上的責任他們必須實施廣告實名制然後再來就是我們發現有這個涉及詐欺的廣告或者訊息的時候我們通知他們他們必須在24小時之內下架如果他們沒有確實執行的話我們就會對他們進行處罰部長目前當然法律已經有基本的規範了"},{"start":2887.414,"end":2908.096,"text":"平台有防詐的責任包括風險的分析評估廣告的驗證最重要就是下架詐騙的資訊以及提供相關的資料部長說明一下目前各社群平台這種詐騙訊息下架的狀況是如何來說明一下"},{"start":2908.376,"end":2923.032,"text":"OK 我們現在都是透過電子化自動化的方式通知這些平台那我們在打炸專法剛實施的時候他們下架的速度都還比較慢一點但是目前的狀況是說我們通知Facebook如果是設炸的廣告"},{"start":2924.513,"end":2946.338,"text":"目前都在四個平均在四個小時之內我們通知他有四個小時之內就會下架這是平均數另外就是非廣告是一般的訊息的話是在八個小時左右平均八個小時左右他會把它下架那我們是希望他們持續改善因為這個都是做自動化的處理只是說他們在這個"},{"start":2948.178,"end":2974.176,"text":"非廣告而是那個個人訊息方面他們會做人工的最後查驗那這個部分會稍微比較慢一點所以他需要8個小時這都是基本的規範但實際執行的狀況是不好的如果說目前我們看警政署的統計這種詐騙的訊息還是非常猖獗如果以Meta來講Meta的詐騙廣告其實是非常的嚴重那也顯示Meta的這種廣告的"},{"start":2975.237,"end":3000.478,"text":"服務管理系統它是有嚴重的缺失那數位部如何去要求Meta呢各位委員報告我們網站通報查詢網自從去年9月14到現在以來我們已經通知Meta下架了超過24萬則廣告還有那個訊息這24萬則的廣告或者訊息我們就交給MetaMeta就回去訓練他們的AI模型告訴他們的AI模型說台灣的詐騙大概是長什麼樣子"},{"start":3002.279,"end":3026.871,"text":"然後利用這種機制那個Meta現在已經下架了針對台灣780萬則的詐騙廣告或訊息所以其實依照我們的統計我們的那個巡查報告以及民眾的感覺我們現在我想現在應該很少看到有仿冒謝金河或者是仿冒黃仁勳的這種那個名人那個仿冒詐騙已經在Facebook上已經大幅下降了"},{"start":3027.051,"end":3048.678,"text":"部長我要提醒你目前這種下架的速度是趕不上詐騙的速度罰款過低是否是有收到效果嗎是沒有效果嗎如果我們看警政署的資料來看今年1月到9月下架7萬多則網路平台詐騙的廣告"},{"start":3050.399,"end":3073.21,"text":"但是依據蘇發部的網路通報詐騙平台每個月就有兩萬三千多則的詐騙訊息有一萬多則的高風險的訊息那問題的根源並不是平台業者沒有進到這些相關防詐條例的規定沒有做到網路廣告平台"},{"start":3074.661,"end":3097.799,"text":"這種防詐的義務那相關的罰款是不是過低來說明一下OK 跟委員報告目前我們開罰的部分我們是對於Meta已經開罰1850萬台幣那我們這個開罰的目的並不是為了報復最重要我們是希望它改變行為的模式就如同我剛才跟委員報告的他們已經利用AI的方式主動攔阻這個780萬則這個涉及詐騙的訊息這個都"},{"start":3102.362,"end":3120.188,"text":"這些詐騙訊息不是說上架以後再放下來很多都是在上架之前Meta就利用AI的方式部長我再一次提醒你你現在這種金額雖然創下財閥的一個新高但是跟平台的廣告收益來相比"},{"start":3121.394,"end":3139.188,"text":"还是不成比例如果说我们按照欧盟的数位服务法就是DSA它是以全球营收的百分比作为罚款的一个上限那书画部应该来作为一个参考来研究修法的可能性来说明一下"},{"start":3139.708,"end":3157.307,"text":"是 跟委員報告歐盟它是因為它用它這個營收的百分比來裁罰這個在歐盟跟美國之間產生了非常大的貿易紛爭我們也知道說現在美國對各國祭出所謂的"},{"start":3160.47,"end":3184.261,"text":"那個關稅那這個事情事實上是相當有爭議的因為照理說我們財閥應該是針對你犯了什麼錯跟你財閥什麼事情而不是針對對你說你的營業額是多少我抽一個百分之多少的一個財閥這個基本上是一種數位稅美國政府認為是一種數位稅我們不是完全贊同美國的方法如果以全球營收的這種百分比來它具有一個"},{"start":3185.021,"end":3202.402,"text":"争议的一个空间但是目前的罚款过低也是一个不争的事实如果跟他的广告收入来相比的话是差距太大了是这个我们也都完全了解那如同我刚才跟委员所报告我们最重要的目的是希望Meta改变他的行为"},{"start":3202.942,"end":3230.627,"text":"那那個之前我想委員一定講的就是說之前有一個新聞說那個Meta他有很大的10%的收入廣告收入是來自於詐騙集團這個事實上就是一年多以前Meta他自己內部的分析報告他們的檢討報告那我們知道這個事情以後我們也非常認為說非常的不合理所以我們就要求Meta一定改變他的行為他們以前認為說在打詐這件事情上他們只是一個旁觀者他只是一個bystander我們現在要求他加入我們"},{"start":3231.147,"end":3254.207,"text":"加入我們這個好人隊一起做打詐的行為部長 目前詐騙集團是大量的利用第三方支付的平台申請虛擬帳號來進行相關的洗錢那速發部當然有推動第三方支付能量的這種登錄的機制但是第三方支付仍然是詐騙跟洗錢的一個溫床"},{"start":3255.988,"end":3272.903,"text":"相關的蘇華部有什麼更具體的措施嗎在第一個就是說第三方支付原來台灣是採取登記制你只要登記就可以做這件事情那總共有一萬多家的廠商登記那我們自從實施這個能量登錄以後事實上真正"},{"start":3273.784,"end":3296.307,"text":"申請能量登錄大概有80幾家然後通過的目前有53家然後我們在今年廢止了4家又新增了4家廢止了4家就是我們去做實地查核以後我們發覺說它這個營業是有問題的它可能是涉及第三方支付的洗錢部長我還是要提醒你詐騙集團利用第三方支付來作為一個工具"},{"start":3296.86,"end":3309.911,"text":"它進行這種代收轉付導致這種金流的追蹤是極度的困難那財閥跟納管的強度還是有待提升我們看目前多數的財閥法"},{"start":3311.881,"end":3320.012,"text":"目前多數的財閥都是依據洗錢防治法那其實它的花款只有15萬至30萬之間那對於動輒金手這種數億金流的這種業者來說是不夠相關的"},{"start":3329.925,"end":3342.881,"text":"鄭哲利 這個是必須要檢討的最後讓你說明是 我們事實上速發部這邊速產署非常的主動我們今年就是主動發現透過能量登錄我們主動發現像說台灣里"},{"start":3350.501,"end":3371.035,"text":"我們針對這個第三方支付的部分我們其實是百分之百的去做行政查核那一旦我們在發現他的狀況有問題的時候我們就會提供情資給我們的相關的檢調單位跟法務部所以因為這樣其實我們這一次的台灣里的破獲其實事實上是跟法務部一起共同來破獲這樣子的一個集團"},{"start":3372.256,"end":3394.246,"text":"部長最後我提醒你相關的數位經濟的防詐措施數位部有基本的對策跟做法但成效還是不髒有基本的規範這個要繼續努力我們會努力但是不至於成效不髒我們剛才那個報告也看到其實我們最近應該是做出一些成績出來了成效不髒這不是我在交通委員會的質詢"},{"start":3395.669,"end":3423.621,"text":"這是全民對於政府對於打詐的努力雖然有看到努力但是成效還是要繼續努力我們會努力我們絕對會努力但是也給我們的同仁一些鼓勵吧我想我們這個下架了這麼多的那個詐騙訊息然後我們就是因為這個詐騙有線上線下鼓勵要有督促也要有那對於防詐是我們的一個基本責任保障人民的財產安全也是我們重要的責任以上謝謝"},{"start":3426.397,"end":3455.2,"text":"好 謝謝來 部長請回接下來再請林國成委員 繼續謝謝主席請我們數位部林部長來 林部長請來 內政部我們張主任林部長還有行政院指揮中心的王子密來 主任 子密請"},{"start":3459.192,"end":3483.755,"text":"委員長好部長我想你變彩無礙但是到了立法院我要建議你多做少變我沒有很多你還說沒有我現在在講我的對你的建言你開始就要變了你還沒有"},{"start":3484.727,"end":3501.936,"text":"所以我跟你講沒有事實你可以變因為政務官捍衛你的政策這是理所當然但是不要一提到你的夜館的東西跟議題你就開始要變我們知道你很認真啊"},{"start":3502.876,"end":3520.175,"text":"你從政治的時候 起來當部長的時候 你也很認真啊可是問題 所看到 民意代表所看到的東西根本打詐就沒有進步嘛越打越詐 那是一個事實嘛所以 部長"},{"start":3521.681,"end":3536.695,"text":"你也知道我長期在我們交通委員會我對你這些為什麼要給你建言說實在的 真的探討問題不是用辯的就可以解決因為現在數位部"},{"start":3539.497,"end":3561.368,"text":"慢慢進入狀況這是事實慢慢去改進也是事實可是不要忘了立法委員在給你的建言有時候用狡辯的方式我是不認同這種做法這特別我要提醒你來那個小紅書剛才召委已經談過了這個議題也吵了很大來"},{"start":3565.711,"end":3583.251,"text":"部長你認定小紅書它是平台還是網頁小紅書它有網站事實上它有網站也有APP它本身是一個平台好來張主任請問"},{"start":3588.174,"end":3610.672,"text":"到底是行政院詐騙指揮中心要你們進或者你們要進的請問一下報告委員首先先跟委員報告其實在打詐的策略東西我知道我知道是你們主動要進的或者行政院"},{"start":3611.86,"end":3629.987,"text":"那個打炸中心要你們進的我要的是這個答案班委員我們針對這個四大業者七個平台以及這個小紅書衛納館的平台其實我們一直都會去做搜報及受理包案所以本身我們就會去做你給我講那麼多張主任是張主任我問你是誰進的吧"},{"start":3631.508,"end":3651.204,"text":"因為現在不是我們數位部主動禁是內政部上來的東西那有沒有受行政院之指示說這個要禁因為你們持有的理由就是詐騙金額非常高是嗎 是你們主動的或者上面指示的"},{"start":3652.227,"end":3671.198,"text":"鮑威我們是有開會做很多的討論平台討論這個張主任你不要在那邊拐彎抹角我問你是你們決定的或者行政院決定的或者我們數位部自己決定我敢保證我們數位部沒有你們的申請他不會做這個事嘛"},{"start":3672.785,"end":3698.193,"text":"是你們對不對內政部那個不要閃啦你們部長自己本身都在講啦所以這個我跟你講張主任是我想你們這個很辛苦啦但是不要在那邊拐彎抹角那沒意思啦那沒意思好來那個部長那我要請教一下依照你們的數據到底Meta或者卻"},{"start":3701.857,"end":3705.264,"text":"到底小紅書的詐騙案件多或者"},{"start":3707.423,"end":3732.388,"text":"小紅書多來 那個張主任你們有數據到底確Meta哪一個詐騙的多哪一個報言確實比例上是Meta多因為我們受理報案的部分是不要再講那為什麼先進小紅書呢小紅書的內容你們有沒有查過他多前國的女性在有關美妝的部分"},{"start":3733.652,"end":3758.446,"text":"你哪一件說他用美妝去做詐欺的動作那金額當然有因為現在不管是平台也好網站也好確實詐騙大家科技時代大家都在這裡打賺所以每一次林部長都被我們罵東倒西歪可是你們地點你們是第一線的人在這個部分"},{"start":3759.506,"end":3781.228,"text":"數位部是配合你們你們只要依法有紀的東西我就把它停掉問題在這裡所以我剛才為什麼要問你們是內政部或者我們數位部主動進那我也剛才跟你以我個人的經驗我們數位部不會直接進嘛一定依法有紀你們申報上來他才去做這個事嘛"},{"start":3782.383,"end":3808.312,"text":"不是這樣嗎所以你現在也講出Meta他的詐騙事情比較多但是我在這裡有一個理由也特別部長你也了解一下也就是小紅書本來就傅尼最喜愛的這些有關他們美妝跟美容等等這些主要但是詐騙當然是有"},{"start":3810.509,"end":3835.388,"text":"那有你要個案那現在來部長我要請教一下我他有平台那我們是不是依照我們的法令也就是我們的24條社群平台跟依照27條之規定要先納管再來處理可是我們現在沒有納管啊"},{"start":3836.567,"end":3846.4,"text":"你有蠟管嗎沒有對那為什麼要去用用那個27條去馬上把它停掉因為我們的步驟不是用27條是42條你用42條對啦就是內重部用42條不是束髮部用42條"},{"start":3851.607,"end":3872.5,"text":"他就是詐欺剛才我已經問出來了那個Meta當然詐欺那個詐的案件跟金額是比多了好幾倍可是為什麼他不停那為什麼小紅書要停你是在欺負這些我們全國的婦女朋友最需要的美妝的有關知性嗎"},{"start":3874.443,"end":3894.27,"text":"已經跟委員報告過了這個是內政部第四條做的決定然後通知TWNIC然後由TWNIC執行進行DNSRPZ的封阻那這個事情我們速發布是TWNIC的監管機關但是這個決定的部分還是要請教內政部是啦"},{"start":3895.07,"end":3915.844,"text":"所以我剛才一直都沒有問你嘛我也講說這個決定不是你在決定嘛你是要依照他們開會的決定移送來你來執行嘛所以對不對所以我剛才已經跟你講我保證不是你們主動嘛是內政部嘛所以我們說實在我希望呼籲你"},{"start":3916.664,"end":3941.044,"text":"在執行任何事情要有公平性不要兩種標準該停的就停違法的就停不配合還是繼續在打詐那配合打詐不注重政府的法令該停的就停不是因為小紅書是對岸的因為Meta就是美國的"},{"start":3942.065,"end":3963.447,"text":"你們就不敢停就是只有停對岸的這個是直滑不能雙重標準這是我今天要提醒打炸這個部分要特別小心的好不好來 接下來我要特別再請問部長花絕到整個不滑最近 下張"},{"start":3966.451,"end":3992.196,"text":"最近有詐騙升級又第二次詐騙可是這個詐騙手法過去他是用什麼投資等等這些現在更厲害的是變成用司法假冒利是破壞司法的信任請問一下來張主任你們現在有沒有針對這個問題去做追查有沒有"},{"start":3996.601,"end":4010.729,"text":"A班委員我們這個部分是持續都在追查而且一直在想方設法可是現在是非常猖獗張主任帶回去是比照這個就是所謂的二次詐騙跟委員報告其實我們都有在注意"},{"start":4011.365,"end":4028.889,"text":"有注意但是非常猖狂啦你有時候平台跟那個進去看一看為什麼本席要提出這些謝委員是二次詐騙是非常嚴重第二個利用律師破壞司法的信任那更嚴重"},{"start":4029.289,"end":4048.416,"text":"是 所以包括委員所以我們一直在強一直在大力的推動潛在被害人的制度就是希望各相關部會獲得這個我們已經撈出的潛在被害人希望包括二次詐騙的希望各相關部會能夠配合去辦理那實際上各部會都非常的積極在努力包括公司協力好啦 那個張主任我希望啊"},{"start":4049.116,"end":4072.33,"text":"我希望你們要去注重這些正式跟你們檢舉用專案去做這些這個跟生病一樣發現病狀在哪邊我們要馬上醫治該切除的要切除該吃藥的要吃藥所以現在這個是非常嚴重的所以張主任你要把資料把它帶回去那我也希望"},{"start":4072.99,"end":4100.913,"text":"我們林部長這裡如果依照這些因為我們有自己的主管司所以希望他們也可以去發解問題不需要因為內政部也不需要任何一個單位發現不華發現是詐騙那當然我們要主動出擊這一點我要勉勵我們數位部林部長跟我們各司還有另外張主任要把這個問題"},{"start":4102.054,"end":4125.872,"text":"把他專案帶回去這非常嚴重是 謝委員非常嚴重所以這個本席在這裡要拜託部長還有拜託我們主任這個部分要把他當成一為是這是詐騙的溫床盡快解決破滑失滑的信任這非常之嚴重的好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝林國森委員來 謝謝我們官員請回好"},{"start":4131.229,"end":4158.248,"text":"接下來請陳樹越委員謝謝主席請主席邀請肅發部林部長林部長請還有我們內政務刑事局詐欺犯罪防制中心張主任張主任請委員早安部長早部長麥克風開一下"},{"start":4161.653,"end":4186.587,"text":"部長早還有主任早我們知道其實現在詐騙非常猖獗也是國人深惡痛絕的所以不管朝野大家都對這個議題非常的關心也都是一致要求我們政府一定要展現這個打詐的這個決心跟魄力我們看到在這個165打詐儀表板專網上線之後"},{"start":4188.508,"end":4202.197,"text":"所公布的這個就是財損的數字還有這個受理的數字在113年8月份我們是剛開始公告公開就是揭露這樣子的一個資訊那時候的財損這個數字高達138.3億那件數的話是"},{"start":4211.227,"end":4238.565,"text":"21,244件那我們看到截至目前為止就是我們11月份就是今年的11月份整個件數就是已經就是下降到13,559件然後財損的數字也下降到59.91億就數字來看我們是有下降的一個趨勢可是對國人的感受來說部長跟主任你們覺得呢"},{"start":4240.266,"end":4264.467,"text":"我們速發部這邊負責的是網路上面的詐騙訊息現在網路詐騙訊息經過我們成立網詐通報查詢網然後再來就是請Meta還有Line加入我們打詐行列以後網路上的詐騙訊息應該已經是減少了但是現在有很多網路詐騙已經轉為其他的方式譬如說直接用手機打電話甚至於登門"},{"start":4265.508,"end":4293.19,"text":"造訪等等那這些事情我們還是會持續跟內政部密切合作因為他們在詐騙的過程中多少還是會運用到像LINE這樣的那個那個網路通訊媒體等等那我們還是會持續想辦法繼續讓這個數字往下降就是說就打架表板所揭露的這個數字就是受理數字跟財損數字都有呈現下降的趨勢這個本席當然予以肯定那我們要感謝我們所有"},{"start":4293.823,"end":4313.138,"text":"相關的這個單位通力的一個合作可是我們也看到現在整個詐騙的一個結構犯罪結構也正在轉變其中一項很明顯的就是這個外籍詐騙車手人數的急劇攀升這個也是我們從警政署這邊調閱的統計資料可以看得出來的"},{"start":4313.823,"end":4335.56,"text":"就是從110年到今年114年涉案的外籍車手的人數真的是暴增所以就這個部分我們要怎樣去就是有什麼樣的實質的作為來針對防止外籍移工淪為詐騙的車手"},{"start":4337.481,"end":4354.378,"text":"是謝謝委員 先跟委員致謝事實上這個我先跟各委員報告說其實我投身在打仗的時間大概已經二十六七年了事實上我跟大家報告其實在最近這幾年事實上真的相關的包括所有委員的督促"},{"start":4354.778,"end":4375.243,"text":"然後鼓勵我們真的在最近這兩三年真的已經是大幅下降尤其從去年到今年這個真的已經發揮功效所以實際上要讓這個詐騙你說絕跡減少到很少很少這不是一蹴可擊但是實際上真的減少到59%我們有看到這個是真的是相關部為他合作的成果"},{"start":4375.723,"end":4402.105,"text":"那再來其實針對有關這一個外籍車友這個事情實際上在今年1月呢其實在行政院打壓中心包括我們部長署長局長其實都已經一直在要求外籍車友他會高發的原因事實上從去年12月我們就已經有注意到包括國籍他轉變到某一個國籍因為我現在不能說是哪一個國籍他的外籍暴增其實這個會暴增的原因其實就是因為跟我們的打炸策略有關因為我們強力的包括像關懷"},{"start":4403.486,"end":4432.429,"text":"林桂關懷銀行非常的幫忙所以他們轉向就用現場去提款車手那因為我們對於車手的刑責加重所以他們就會去找少年找外籍那外籍會增加原因是因為他們會利用短期簽證進來的一個原因然後甚至包括戴口罩所以這個部分呢其實我們也在想方設法包括跟移民署還有跟這一個我們的那個集政署國際我們都有在想說如何透過廉政中心包括"},{"start":4433.369,"end":4451.404,"text":"移民的單位把這個身份辨識出來所以這個部分跟委員報告其實這個部分我們目前包括最近都開了好幾次的會議希望說能夠間接相關的系統包括我們在全國的刑事工作會報州局長其實就有預定我們要整合一個平台讓各縣市"},{"start":4452.105,"end":4472.362,"text":"的這一個從熱點車手發現到的車手戴口罩的影像如果是外籍的話如何間接到移民署的系統立刻辨識出來在他出境前來進行攔截謝謝就如同張主任剛說的因為我們打炸就是有成效所以致使這個在聘集團他們真的也就是"},{"start":4473.963,"end":4493.383,"text":"會變形就是這個結構就在改變那我們也看到有這個打詐專主的檢察官有指出就是我們為了防堵詐騙所以各銀行加強這個管控轉帳機制還有降低額度所以這個詐團線上取款的門路就受阻了所以就是增加這個面交的這樣子的一個車手需要這個大量的這樣的車手"},{"start":4494.484,"end":4517.691,"text":"所以進而就是吸引更多的外籍人士跟移工來就是從事這樣子的一個非法的一個行為那因為這個移工的涉案的部分我們又可以從他們的涉案的一個身分別依這個合法移工非法移工外籍學生以及持觀光簽證入境的這樣子的分類我們可以看到非法移工跟持觀光簽證的"},{"start":4520.132,"end":4539.382,"text":"這個件數是非常的高那剛剛主任有提到就是說他們會利用這個觀光簽證短期入境然後來從事這樣子的一個非法行為那他們就是說就這樣子的一個身份別的一個結構來看他們要能夠說在這樣子一個短期的時間進來然後"},{"start":4540.823,"end":4567.002,"text":"可以受到指揮他們應該就是透過社群平台透過網路那這部分我們要怎樣去加強比如說包括我們要怎樣透過這個網路平台去宣導讓這些外籍移工要提醒他們不要去從事這個非法行為那另外一方面就是說要怎樣從這個社群平台去就是可以去就是注意到這一些非法的移工的行為那個"},{"start":4569.896,"end":4596.222,"text":"OK 我們會朝著那個委員所建議和指導的方向我們去進行那此外也跟委員報告因為現在我們已經跟台灣幾家比較大的金融機構合作就是說如果有人去提款的時候戴著口罩或甚至於戴著那個機車安全帽的話那這個ATM那個自動提款機就會要求他脫下他的口罩否則就不會吐款給他像這種科技的手段我們會持續進行"},{"start":4600.125,"end":4621.603,"text":"剛剛委員會有很多委員在關心小紅書的部分我們知道社群平台也真的變成是詐騙集團的一個溫床跟管道目前相關的平台業者有沒有配合我們打詐的政策"},{"start":4623.367,"end":4647.911,"text":"有 在目前配合的狀況像是Google它配合的狀況一向都很好然後那個Meta原來大概一年多以前它配合狀況比較不好那現在已經好很多了那如同我之前報告的它現在就是利用我們送給它的24萬多筆的詐騙資料他們訓練他們的AI模型結果主動下架了超過780萬則針對台灣的詐騙訊息那LINE也都還好"},{"start":4651.912,"end":4658.597,"text":"是 那有配合的當然我們也要感謝他們那對不配合的我們怎麼處理"},{"start":4659.915,"end":4686.706,"text":"所以跟委員報告就是我們依據可以配合的就是必須要用29跟39來去做管理那實際上確確實實這一兩年來確實相關的七個平台他們都有在進步那我們在針對小紅樹部分因為實在是聯繫請他們去做相關的配套措施他們都確實沒有理所以我們包括其實在打詐欺表辦裡面我們針對各種類型的詐騙不管你是很高的或者是很少我們都會想方設法當然我們會有權重哪一個是優先"},{"start":4689.167,"end":4705.954,"text":"那針對你這個無法管的我們就只好採取就是依照42條在依法行政的方法之下給他停止解析跟限制接取所以這個部分其實我們是還是必須要想方設法不管是哪一種的詐騙類型我們都會盡量去做一個防堵以上"},{"start":4706.613,"end":4733.937,"text":"是 就是其實就是小紅書因為他對我們政府的這個詐騙的這個政策就是我們要求他的部分他就是不配合嘛 對不對就是以讀不回嘛然後包括他在台灣也沒有這個代理人沒有法人代表所以就是說對於他們沒有遵守我們的這個法律當然我們也有權利來要求他就是我們跟他停止解析嘛也不是禁止嘛 是不是那是不一樣的 對不對"},{"start":4734.758,"end":4760.205,"text":"我們是針對它的詐欺網站那因為詐欺網站它的Domain下面的那一個就是APP那個當然它有時候會可能相同但是也會有不同的狀況所以我們實際上是針對它的詐欺網址下面的Domain的那一個網域是 所以張主任你要講清楚針對它詐欺的網頁不然剛剛有委員在關心說有女性朋友沒有辦法得到美容資訊事實上這個美容資訊"},{"start":4761.065,"end":4781.818,"text":"包括Meta Google其實都很多不一定說一定要靠這個小紅書才能夠得到這樣子的一個資訊其實我們也從國家安全局所揭露的資料來看我們可以看到說國家安全局最近他有表示就是說針對中國製的應用程式進行資安檢測"},{"start":4783.24,"end":4798.035,"text":"供給檢測包括違反個資權限等15項指標小紅書APP全數不合格所以對這樣的嚴重的問題就是事實上就是說對於小紅書市井的第一個市井的反而是中國"},{"start":4799.535,"end":4820.474,"text":"中華人民共和國這個張主任知道嗎部長知道嗎 包委員我知道他們在去年吧還是前年我忘了確實有揭露啦那其實好像是今年小紅書其實有針對他們的部分也有做立刻的改善我記得也確實是有這一個新聞的揭露以上"},{"start":4820.894,"end":4849.316,"text":"是 就是说其实有时候这个他们就是会利用就是民众消费者他们就是对某项商品的一个兴趣就是透过这样子的方式来获得他们的个资所以这个也是一个非常严重的一个问题所以事实上我们就是说对于政府打仗的一个策略跟政策我们都是予以支持的那我们也希望就是这个在野党的立委不要一边"},{"start":4850.057,"end":4875.044,"text":"要求還是一邊批評說政府打詐沒有成效那一邊又對於政府的這個就是相關的一個手段又予以就是這個就是批評這樣子好謝謝非常感謝委員的支持與指教謝謝好謝謝陳水委員來部長請回好接下來再請何新成委員"},{"start":4881.698,"end":4908.971,"text":"謝謝召委孟凱我們是不是請我們數位發展部我們林部長林宜靜部長請蘇委員早安部長早在進入我今天專案報告的防詐騙的主題之前我想大家都很關心因為今天一早就發現應該是說一早從媒體我們知道"},{"start":4910.251,"end":4939.291,"text":"張文的這個孤狼式的犯罪他籌劃了很久他連續購買了13把長短刀全部靠網購我們在談詐騙的時候就是在所謂的網路社群平台的一個交易行為我們要設斷點希望能夠教民眾市詐 防詐 阻詐但是我們現在又出現了一個議題就是原來我們可以看到"},{"start":4940.772,"end":4959.973,"text":"這個張文孤郎市的一個犯案他的所有的一個犯罪工具都來自於網購是部長你對這一個事情你的第一個看法是那我們要應該跟網路平台第一個你說下禮拜一要喝咖啡要談要談什麼"},{"start":4960.573,"end":4986.364,"text":"第二個我們是不是應該檢討我們現在這個所有的平行輸入或者是小包裹輸入的一個機制政府該不該來好好的來檢討為什麼我們沒有辦法第一時間即時性的察覺原來有這些危險物品是透過網路 透過海關透過這樣子的一個交易行為"},{"start":4988.31,"end":5004.061,"text":"這個SOP到底政府能不能有效的去預防跟嚇子是 非常同意委員的看法不過跟委員報告我不是下個禮拜一要跟他們談我是上個禮拜一前天已經跟他們談過了可是上個禮拜一談的時候這個禮拜一 上次的那個禮拜一來個禮拜一不重要重要的是談論的議題是什麼有談出什麼結果"},{"start":5017.129,"end":5033.846,"text":"對 OK 我正要跟委員報告那就是說基本上我們網路上購買一些物品有些是管制品管制品通常是不能直接購買但是有些就是介於這種有風險的譬如說刀子這種產品那我們現在的方向是說第一個"},{"start":5034.486,"end":5046.733,"text":"就是說我們應該把這些產品分類有些產品是應該是用實名制或者是類實名制才能購買我們現在剛好速發部推出一個數位憑證皮夾的機構這個可以用來認證購買者的身分就是說到底是誰購買了這個產品老師部長我現在要提的這個我當然願意支持"},{"start":5058.219,"end":5085.682,"text":"但是呢所謂的這個品項的認定除了數位發展部跟其他部會要跨部會的來認定什麼叫做類危險或者是需要類管理的這樣子的品項我剛剛講的張文他透過網購買了13把長短刀那他的時間長達一年多那如果按照我們現在國人的安全跟防衛心理"},{"start":5086.164,"end":5100.495,"text":"是期待政府能夠提出有效的因應方法來防止有下一次的這樣子的一個網購13把短刀的個案出現是 這個可以從三個方面來處理"},{"start":5101.776,"end":5129.556,"text":"清楚的講清楚是 我們現在跟他講我們有三個方式來處理第一個就是說在對於這個比較危險的這些物品我們那個應該是說在購買的時候他如果沒有做出身份證明的話我就不讓他購買這是一種方式那另外一種方式是說他可以購買但是他必須留下他的身份證明資料那到時候如果發生事情呢發生了事情我們的警政單位還可以去搜查那另外一點就是"},{"start":5131.664,"end":5158.592,"text":"當然沒有人會希望發生事情然後另外一個就是說他如果購買的數量不合常理的話那我們可以利用AI的方式或者是資料匯流的機制我們去查說一般人不會買13把刀這個是一個異常的狀況那我們就可以去主動去偵查那這個事情當然是說是內政部警政署這邊他們主責但是我們事務發布作為一個技術的機關我們一定會全力配合然後主動去找出方法來解決這些問題"},{"start":5159.172,"end":5184.392,"text":"那這件事要花多久的時間來研擬這個事情如果說技術上的話那我們當然是說馬上就去做的話快的話是半年慢的話是一年但是跟委員報告我是來自於科技界我是來自於產業界這個事情我沒辦法說我下個禮拜就可以就給你這個真是沒有辦法但是我的意思是說你要跟內政部其他跨部會的會議最近一次要什麼時候開會"},{"start":5185.748,"end":5191.96,"text":"OK我想這個一個月之內我們找他開會絕對沒有問題我們非常主動的第一個我建議禁訴"},{"start":5193.105,"end":5220.399,"text":"是一个月对我们而言对国人而言还太慢了是没问题尽数是早来开会是把你刚刚讲的需要类管理的品项有哪些是需要实名制或者是你的数位皮夹制的一个推动是你刚刚讲的三个方式要有马上有一个结论来告诉国人让国人可以安心是政府是有效的有积极的作为希望能够防止因应"},{"start":5221.039,"end":5228.186,"text":"是非常同意委員的看法非常同意所以不要一個月趕快等一下離開這個會場就趕快跟內政部約談怎麼樣來研擬這個防治的機制好不好好沒問題好那接著詐騙是"},{"start":5238.123,"end":5254.474,"text":"行動支付有九成人在使用的這個是支撐會的報告那我簡短行動支付分兩種第三方支付跟電子支付第三方支付誰監管我們速發部監管就是你嘛好我今天就要談第三方支付的事情那下一頁"},{"start":5256.232,"end":5268.819,"text":"涉及洗錢的事你也知道嗎這個我根據媒體講的最近這幾年來光是就有1234世家的一個第三方支付的平台洗錢的案例協助詐團不罰業者洗錢超過800億"},{"start":5271.821,"end":5284.765,"text":"但是我要根據你們訴發部提供給本席的資料你說你們針對第三方支付涉有洗錢都有在積查本年度共裁罰10家業者裁罰金額總計280萬元這兩個數字看起來差很大第三方支付協助詐團不罰業者洗錢超過800億"},{"start":5297.389,"end":5298.412,"text":"結果我們訴發部說我們有在做事我們有在稽查我裁罰了10家業者我裁罰的是283萬"},{"start":5306.966,"end":5318.073,"text":"跟委員報告這幾家就是我們主動集合查出來的是我們主動發現的所以這個事實上就是義配 旺佩大還有台灣禮這幾家這幾家已經停業了嘛對不對對對對 都是我們主動發現的不是我們事後發現第一個我要建議你主動發現了那你要讓國人知道這是政府積極作為主動發現"},{"start":5329.62,"end":5350.715,"text":"我跟你讲你没讲没人知道这是你们主动发现的第二个我们有召开记者会召开记者会还不够召开记者会还不够第二个你们财阀的金额相对的少"},{"start":5352.4,"end":5360.265,"text":"這讓人家看起來一個是被民眾被詐團被不法業者洗錢的這個金額超過800億我們10家業者的裁罰283萬元是"},{"start":5364.935,"end":5389.668,"text":"我覺得這個不符合比例當然我不知道你們的行政裁量權是如何我是建議你們第一個主動的發現第三方支付涉及洗錢是你們主動通報那這個除了記者會之外應該要用各式各樣的方式讓國人知道政府是積極的在打擊不法第二個我覺得裁法的行政的一個基準是不是應該調整這個你們去研議下一頁"},{"start":5392.629,"end":5410.884,"text":"但是我還是要提醒在你們給我的報告說2024年完成了百分之百針對第三方支付的查核但是你看根據媒體根據檢調的查案合法的第三方支付還是替詐團博弈洗錢80億"},{"start":5414.844,"end":5431.966,"text":"跟委員報告有關這一件就是國生的這一塊其實事實上他在最早112年9月的時候做這個能量登錄之後其實事實上我們有進行過三次的這個行政檢查每次所以是只有行政檢查你的這一句話告訴我們只有行政檢查然後我們把"},{"start":5433.387,"end":5460.247,"text":"對我們其實是進行要求他的一些限期改善並且把相關的資訊會提供給檢調單位去做一個這個查核然後另外呢這家公司就是因為他後來發現說他這個部分他其實不符合相關的規定他也已經沒有辦法依照我們的限期來做改善他自己來申請廢止這個能量登錄所以他在二月已經廢止能量登錄他就不能提供就是他不能提供虛擬帳號"},{"start":5461.708,"end":5472.677,"text":"來進行他第三方支付這樣的一個業務然後之後再讓這個檢警調來將他這整個的所以是你們移送了嗎我們有做情資的一些交換你有做情資的交換對交換給對"},{"start":5475.39,"end":5498.075,"text":"已经交给好了那你就讲说是你的情职提供给减掉那我们现在要讲是合法的第三方支付涉及洗钱涉及博弈那这些涉及不法的我觉得我们要勇于举发他原来是合法他如果做了不该不合法的事情就已经不是合法所以国人会对这个产生信任的问题我最后一个就是要告诉"},{"start":5499.035,"end":5522.333,"text":"速發部事實上很多的這個信任的對第三方支付不信任或者是常發生一些問題我覺得在正面的這個積極的讓消費者知道說他如何自保權益這部分速發部也應該要廣大的宣傳跟教導現在第三方支付他們也成立了一個協會那他們這些"},{"start":5524.054,"end":5549.57,"text":"優良的廠商 正派的廠商他們也非常的積極在宣傳這件事情因為他們就是希望跟那些不良的不法的廠商把它切割 區隔出來所以我們現在努力跟那個第三方支付的協會合作擴大宣導好 以上 會後再給我剛剛要的資料好不好 謝謝好 謝謝何新成委員來 官員請回好 接下來再請黃捷委員質詢"},{"start":5559.147,"end":5587.025,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請林部長來 林怡靜部長請報告委員早安部長早 我看副署長也在旁邊上禮拜其實我們省打炸專法的時候有跟副署長有達成一個協議就是接下來要請速發部來加強這些大型平台的網路透明化的程度那當然希望這個我們要努力的監管他們好嗎先請部長承諾"},{"start":5587.825,"end":5595.367,"text":"沒問題啊這本來就是我們的職責好 這個要拜託你們持續的追蹤那我今天要跟部長討論的是另外一件事情因為最近這個路透社有報導說Meta為了要維持來自中國的詐騙的廣告商的營收每年高達數十億美元可能是近千億的台幣這樣的營收然後呢他們實施了一個白名單的制度就是說你付錢給Meta然後你就被加入那個名單加入這個名單之後呢他就"},{"start":5616.532,"end":5631.582,"text":"可以這些廣告商就即便他的廣告被AI判定為有可能是有潛在風險或是可能是詐騙訊息但是沒關係他幫你人工審查這就是我們看到的當然我們不確定說這樣的制度是只有在中國還是只有在哪裡"},{"start":5632.842,"end":5651.031,"text":"當然我們看到會恐慌說這樣的白名單制度Meta是不是在全球各國可能連台灣是不是都有這樣的制度在施行所以我要在這邊拜託部長的是第一個其實在歐洲他們的數位服務法裡面我之前也跟副署長討論過很多次就是他們34條35條都很明確說超大型平台你們自己要有系統的風險評估"},{"start":5656.974,"end":5667.34,"text":"那這個風險評估包括什麼就是你自己認定說有可能哪幾類是有風險的訊息那你自己要做基本的控管嘛然後包括說很明顯是非法的內容你要確保說這些非法的內容他們不會透過你的平台產生營收"},{"start":5674.824,"end":5694.626,"text":"那這些其實都是數位服務法裡面定的非常清楚的所以我是第一個希望的是我們台灣是不是也可以比較歐洲的數位服務法來跟超大型平台來談說他們可不可以自己做到系統性的風險評估第二個要確保在台灣不會有所謂的白名單制度"},{"start":5695.246,"end":5711.982,"text":"跟委員報告那個委員剛剛所提到那個路透社的那則新聞是最近揭露的可是它裡面講的是說一份那個META在去年2024年年初的一個報告內部的報告那事實上它自己檢討的報告那裡面所描述的那些行為我們絕對"},{"start":5713.223,"end":5741.745,"text":"不同意而且我們不允許他那些事情發生那在去年520我上任以後那我們也是積極的跟那個Meta一直做溝通協調那我們都是叫跟他明確的講說這些事情都不能再發生所以在我們的努力之下現在Meta他的做法應該都已經改善就是說您提到那幾件事情應該據我了解應該是沒有再發生然後他們現在也積極配合我們我們用網站通報查詢網"},{"start":5742.686,"end":5756.827,"text":"通報他們超過24萬則的詐騙訊息他們都是在24小時之內下架絕大部分當然還有幾件被我們裁罰的另外他們自己也主動利用AI的方式下架了780"},{"start":5758.129,"end":5784.924,"text":"其实我有看到部长的脸书发文就是说你们跟他们很努力的合作平台下架23万折的诈骗讯息然后也跟他们一起训练AI拦阻了430万折针对台湾的诈骗现在数字最新的数字已经是780万折了OK好这个当然我们在台湾很努力的在做可是我们看到的是Meta一面在台湾说要阻挡诈骗广告结果在中国一面在收钱放诈骗广告"},{"start":5786.305,"end":5801.18,"text":"我不知道說Meta在全球是這樣子兩面手法還是怎麼樣因為我們都知道說中國的詐騙廣告其實算是很努力的詐騙的廣告輸出國全台灣在臉書上廣告很多詐騙訊息幾乎都是來自中國嘛這個是他們自己的統計數據啊"},{"start":5802.982,"end":5822.524,"text":"那怎么会让他们继续玩这种两面手法委员既然看过我的脸书贴文你也知道我们这个事情我们是希望扩大好人对那我们也是跟美国政府那边有沟通然后请他们的协助然后现在柬埔寨的诈骗园区发现是城市的太子集团"},{"start":5823.365,"end":5835.906,"text":"我們一直都有來做這個事情然後我們也透過美國的這些外交管道就是對META表達我們的關切就是對他們施加一些壓力這個事情我們都持續在做"},{"start":5836.274,"end":5856.14,"text":"好所以拜託部長我剛講兩件事超大型平台像Meta這個他們自己該做的系統性風險評估竟然在歐洲能做在台灣也能做第二個台灣絕對不可以讓他們有所謂的白名單制度不可以說你收了廣告商的錢就讓他們用人工審查的方式刻意的"},{"start":5856.96,"end":5874.634,"text":"讓他們持續洩露這一些非法的訊息在網路上然後我要跟部長報告你現在你打臉請各位你現在就上臉書搜尋說全台收卡搜尋說真做業員然後一個月有十幾萬二十萬甚至上達五六十萬的收入"},{"start":5875.555,"end":5881.177,"text":"你就大概知道這是在幹嘛了這個應該是詐騙訊息如果有人看到的話麻煩幫我們做宣傳利用我們網站通報查詢網馬上通報我們就會馬上通知所以臉書還是上面還是有很多的詐騙訊息嗎在買人頭賬戶的 在徵車手的這些訊息都很多啦"},{"start":5895.962,"end":5917.323,"text":"是 所以我們就是利用那個第一個我們用那個希望民眾看到的就是再次講一次利用我們網站通報查詢網那個舉手治老把這個網把這個網址貼到我們這個查詢網之後我們就自動分案自動確認找那個確認這個應該是監管會要做確認然後接下來我們就自動通知Meta或者是Google或者是"},{"start":5918.084,"end":5938.315,"text":"YouTube這些平台要他馬上下架那這個都是法律上有規定他在接到我們通知之後必須在24小時之內下架如果沒有下架我們就會開罰好這個拜託請大家現在收是不是很多全台收卡還在買人頭賬戶的廣告超多拜託馬上下架謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝來接下來請黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":5948.161,"end":5960.045,"text":"本席宣告一下我們在蔡其昌委員質詢結束之後我們休息十分鐘謝謝好 謝謝趙偉我們一樣請數位部林部長來 林部長請"},{"start":5969.389,"end":5991.024,"text":"國賢早安部長早部長我們今天針對當然是針對詐騙的問題那當然其實第一個我想大家很關心說過去這段時間Meta的這個詐騙的通報的數量非常非常的高啊這樣的比例那你看其實我們看Meta的營收在這個整個12月預估的話它全年的營收會有161美金在台灣的部分因為台幣大概4957億元這樣的狀況是"},{"start":5993.166,"end":5996.048,"text":"那過去這段時間我們從2025年因為我知道數位部很認真確實有在開罰但是我們看數字2025年5月的時候罰100萬那2025年6月的時候罰1500萬那這2025年8月罰250萬總計罰1850萬那這個數字"},{"start":6011.172,"end":6033.538,"text":"如果只是單一個人是很高啦但是你針對Meta這個大公司1850萬大概還不超過他一小時廣告投放的這個收入所以我想這個這樣子的裁罰的這個金額其實我覺得對Meta可能是無關痛癢坦白說那另外一個問題就想我請教一下到底當初就是2025年5月罰100萬然後2025年8月罰250萬但是6月的時候要罰1500萬中間的過程是什麼是"},{"start":6039.747,"end":6046.16,"text":"檢舉數量變多還是你們裁罰的標準怎麼改變或是怎麼樣才能夠提升說要能夠把這個真的詐騙廣告來把它撤除掉"},{"start":6046.863,"end":6075.424,"text":"OK 跟委員報告因為我們認為說我們技術這個財閥這個金額的確對Meta這樣的公司來講不是一筆很大的數字但是我們財閥的主要目的不是為了報復不是說我們缺錢又跟他要錢我們最重要是希望他改變他的行為那我們希望說他不能在這件事情上他作為一個旁觀者他以前收這些錢不管是詐騙集團或者是正常的人投放廣告他都收我們要求他加入我們所謂的好人隊一起"},{"start":6076.405,"end":6098.313,"text":"做這個詐騙的工作這個是我們的目標在這裡那效果看起來有限到目前為止第一個我們透過書發部的網站通報查詢網從去年9月到現在已經跟他們通報超過24萬則的詐騙訊息那他們都請他們下架了然後接下來他們就用這24萬則訊息去訓練他們的AI系統告訴他們AI系統說這個台灣的詐騙到底長什麼樣子"},{"start":6105.396,"end":6132.069,"text":"然後他們自己主動用AI的方式已經下架超過780萬則針對台灣的詐騙訊息部長 其實你剛剛在回應其他委員的時候提到一個很關鍵的重點我也想這邊再提出來其實這兩天不是 今天金港會發了一個新聞講說我們全台灣這個社群的詐騙的金額下降但我想實際上就其實是部長你剛剛提到其實我們是透過真的要透過外交的方式包含說你就製造跟美國這樣子的國家去反映這件事情"},{"start":6132.789,"end":6153.19,"text":"我想最近大家看到國際新聞知道說包含泰國軍方包含各國軍方對這個柬埔寨動手所以他是把整個園區抄掉了包含說他的金流包含他這個基房包含人員等等的所以當然你把整個他的基地這個抄掉之後當然我們整體金額會下降所以我覺得這個可能才是真正能夠把這個園頭阻炸把它打斷不然其實我們"},{"start":6153.991,"end":6170.725,"text":"速發部我們每天在檢舉每天在AI在那邊搜尋到底有多少廣告但如果能夠從源頭把這個核心的問題把它解決掉的話那可能一勞永逸會比較效果會更加明確所以我覺得部長剛剛講的美術系真的需要透過外交的手段或透過這種外交溝通的方式讓"},{"start":6172.381,"end":6188.532,"text":"Meta的母公司Meta公司的母國知道他們在世界各地有發生這樣的事情那這些來源到底來自於哪裡這部分我覺得是不是數位部能夠把相關的這個的數據做成這個記錄讓AIT也好或是其他的單位知道這個事情"},{"start":6188.996,"end":6203.983,"text":"是 這些事情我們其實都有密切的跟AIT還有Meta我們都有些交流尤其是MetaMeta我們一直要求說它一定要必須把這些事情做好然後因為Meta這家公司"},{"start":6205.043,"end":6227.462,"text":"那個事實上他的行為應該是有改變那在最近就是我們看到一些作為已經比較積極了那在宣傳方面他們之前他們宣傳可能覺得說多一事不如少一事不要那我們也是跟他們講說你們做了什麼事情你們為了你們公司的商譽要不然就是這樣我們今天這個質詢很多的委員大家都覺得說台灣人對Meta的觀感很不好"},{"start":6227.802,"end":6250.911,"text":"那我在這邊也要再次呼籲Meta就是說要趕快把這些事情要做而且要做好宣傳這樣子對你們的商業也是會有正面影響的部長這再麻煩你了再來就是其實一樣是相關的納管平台的問題其實之前前段時間大家也爭議過這件事情那包含今天的你們的書面報告裡面你們納管對象範圍公布了四家業者七個平台是"},{"start":6252.233,"end":6267.018,"text":"但是裡面還是沒有小紅書所以小紅書到底是不是說你們要規範要納管要公告的平台之一OK 我們這個納管的那個平台我們是依照打炸專法的"},{"start":6268.078,"end":6285.634,"text":"第27條那我們就是在台灣它因為規模超過一定的規模的平台我們才會納管那因為小紅書算是近年來才比較竄起的一個平台那它還沒達到我們速發部納管的標準那從27條到"},{"start":6288.537,"end":6302.278,"text":"炸防條例從27條到33條都是規範我們速發部如何去納管那個網路廣告平台那這次小紅書是內政部依照第42條那是走另外一條途徑就是在"},{"start":6303.079,"end":6321.657,"text":"有緊急案件的時候內政部可以直接要求對一些詐欺網站進行停止解析或限制接取的限制內政部就詢問給TWNIC然後TWNIC就去執行我們速發部是TWNIC的監督機關但是關於這個決策的過程可能還是要請教內政部"},{"start":6325.14,"end":6336.145,"text":"沒關係啦 這個上次也在電視部大家都問過我只是說你們這個行政部門這個步驟你們的腳步不能不一致啦你們是所謂的數位平台的這個監管機關結果呢"},{"start":6338.786,"end":6365.993,"text":"在公文裡面或在相關的這個警告這個規範裡面沒有提到這個平台那結果這個平台突然中間有一段時間突然有其他單位說它是這個詐騙網站你就把它封掉了所以我覺得這個是比例原則的問題就之前NCCC也講過今天小紅書這個平台就像Meta一樣Meta是個大平台它裡面有詐騙所以我們是把詐騙的那個網頁或是那個帳號把它這個撤掉不是把整個網站把它封掉"},{"start":6366.713,"end":6381.979,"text":"理論上應該是這樣才有小紅書當然裡面可能會有詐騙或是有的沒有的所以你是把那個平台不是把整個平台把它禁掉應該是把裡面的某些帳號禁掉而已當然Telegram也是一樣因為Telegram也沒有在裡面所謂的納管業者他也不會 他也不可能落地啦坦白說"},{"start":6382.879,"end":6403.999,"text":"那Telegram裡面也有很多什麼洗錢的有的沒有的像是之前我們那個兒少相關問題的你們也只是用相關技術不是把Telegram裡面某些頻道把它封掉你不是全台灣人上不了沒辦法使用Telegram所以我覺得這個邏輯在這種網絡社群上面我覺得你們秉持你們的專業你們應該要去跟所謂的主管機關就是隔壁的內政部講說"},{"start":6405.16,"end":6421.569,"text":"我今天要做這件事情 我不是要把小紅書封掉是我把小紅書裡面涉及詐騙的這個帳號封掉才對啊好不好 你們可不可以去堅持一下這個專業是 我會鼓勵 謝謝謝謝委員這個部長請回 部長先請回那我們先請那個法務部檢察司司長 張司長張司長請"},{"start":6433.3,"end":6447.889,"text":"市長好市長好我想針對實務上討論其實今年1到8月我們青少年的嫌疑犯有4.5萬人涉嫌這個詐欺這個案件在案事程裡面我想是最多的另外就是說包含說我們詐欺罪都是受刑人兩年內的再犯罪情形"},{"start":6448.669,"end":6474.631,"text":"因為要兩年內所以100從如果比較完整的數據111年我們再犯率這個2581人裡面有599人再犯所以比例高達23.2%那你看112年一年而已他再犯率大概10%左右所以他比例也快要到兩成了所以第一個我想問說就是到底我們整個法務部我們整個這個檢查機關對於這種受刑人有沒有什麼樣系統性的檢討他們到底為什麼第一個是那麼多這麼多年輕人去犯這個罪那他們是"},{"start":6475.532,"end":6493.445,"text":"因為18歲以下嘛所以他們可能他們的薪他們薪責也相對比較輕那是不是有集團他們是針對年輕人這部分在招收 在招募讓他們去做這個事情以及這種再販率的部分你們到底要怎麼處理要不然每次抓一抓大家第一線警察很辛苦然後把人抓了然後警察官扮演扮演很辛苦把人家抓了"},{"start":6493.965,"end":6522.301,"text":"進去之後就出來出來之後就去騙包含說這兩天包含說我們去了解說整個監所的狀況監所現在可能很多地方它的這個比例超收非常嚴重但很多的問題就是因為這幾年詐騙犯在整個監所裡面所佔的比例也很高所以實務上來講可能法官他也不想要再把人送進去因為送進去也沒有位置放所以我想問一下到底整個法國部隊對於這種詐騙的不管是年輕人犯罪也好還是再犯罪也好你們有什麼樣的對策還是就這樣擺著反正法官判一判"},{"start":6523.161,"end":6546.781,"text":"進去之後出來再造然後他們又提升他們詐騙的技術會不會有這個問題謝謝委員的詢問有關青少年犯詐欺罪的部分因為少年犯的部分是由司法院來主責因為我們對於成少共犯的這種查緝也希望能夠強化查緝利用少年幕後的集團"},{"start":6547.761,"end":6569.315,"text":"對 那因此針對這個成少共犯的這個情形我們也則由台高檢署要求各地檢署必須要跟這個轄區的這個法院這邊那對於少年跟成年人可能共同犯罪這樣子的一個相關的證據的聯繫機制必須要有所建立那他們對於這樣子的一個"},{"start":6570.876,"end":6582.445,"text":"承受共犯的犯罪情節要共同的來做一個幕後的這個溯源查緝的這個強化的工作那針對這個再犯的這種情形那詐為條例裡面那針對那個詐欺犯罪已經有提高這個假釋門檻那我們的矯正署呢也會強化這個在監所內的一個矯正的這個相關的一個機制以上"},{"start":6594.554,"end":6618.875,"text":"我想這個剛剛因為提到說這個包含說我們對於未成年部分他後面有沒有整個集團共犯部分我希望說能夠有比較具體的檢討的數據啦就到底掌握多少還是說是個人個人個人的把他在車手抓了但是到底後面利用他們的這個集團是哪些幫派也好或是哪些這個組織也好這個是不是能夠請你們有明確掌握之後提供報告給北本席給我們委員會的委員"},{"start":6619.435,"end":6638.156,"text":"是好那針對那個陳紹共犯數據的話我們再補充給委員這邊來參考好謝謝市長謝謝好謝謝黃建豪委員來官員請回好接下來再請魯明哲委員質詢那剛剛本席有宣告就我們質詢到蔡其昌委員結束之後我們休息10分鐘謝謝"},{"start":6646.058,"end":6655.136,"text":"好謝謝主席有請我們數位部林部長以及我們內政部警政署今天來的我們張主任來張主任請"},{"start":6658.366,"end":6685.371,"text":"委員早安早這個因為今天在談相關的一些議題但我首先問你因為從我們之前黃部長一直在推我們看到你這樣的這個網路詐騙通報查詢網我們在上幾個會期我們也有問到相關的一些問題當然我們希望花了錢能夠更有效率那我這個部分我們看到你這兩年都編了不少的一個預算那也正式正式在今年的五月份"},{"start":6686.631,"end":6710.252,"text":"上路了我也特別看到你們的報告目前下載的人數大概4萬6千多人我是在這邊溫馨提示一下就是說真的現在因為詐騙的不分年齡我們希望說你有這樣的一個反應的工具它並不是保護自己它反應出來之後它可以幫忙很多人不管他是幾歲的所以我們統計一下"},{"start":6710.973,"end":6720.253,"text":"我們全國15歲以上人口2061萬人他的占比現在是千分之二大概未來有什麼計畫再讓他推廣你有什麼想法"},{"start":6721.399,"end":6746.046,"text":"非常謝謝委員的鼓勵的確我們現在這個我們網站通報查詢網算是得到不錯的成效因為現在經過這個機制已經下架了超過24萬則的詐騙訊息但是使用人數還是太少所以現在使用的人大部分都是一些很熱心的民眾一些熱心的民眾單一的人我上次知道就是說他通報的件數就是超過2000件是不是"},{"start":6747.307,"end":6763.002,"text":"一個人就通報超過2000件可是這些都是熱心民眾但是一般的民眾他應該也可以即使不通報他上去也應該做查詢所以我們會加強我們的宣導我們過去的宣導可能是太保守了一些"},{"start":6764.083,"end":6789.557,"text":"我是建議說你們特別去了解一下當他這個上網之後APP一年之後你研究一下可能是固定年齡層的人使用者通報的人熱心人是比較多但有些可能相關的一些年齡他可能沒有什麼人但是不同年齡層他有時候受到不同的詐騙訊息是不一樣的第二個問題我想問警政署今天張主任張主任請教一下"},{"start":6790.678,"end":6817.346,"text":"我接下来谈一下我认为说这个诈骗案诈骗本身是真的是应该要好好把它找出来舍不舍平台当然也有责任所以你说对任何平台做什么样一个处理我个人是没有意见但是你要注意一件事它政策的公平性跟一致性这个是非常非常重要的所以我今天跟你讨论这个因为在小红书这个封锁的一个"},{"start":6818.226,"end":6839.379,"text":"事件裡面我們聽到了這個看到你們的一個新聞稿就感覺說事實上我們警政署在辦這個案子有這個急迫性然後也很緊急的去做了一個處理但是呢這個小紅書公司他已讀不回嘛也就是說我們感覺我們窮盡了一些一切方法但是他沒辦法所以最後才有直接"},{"start":6840.723,"end":6867.829,"text":"直接在我們這個所有的法律特別為了網路有一個專章總共16個條文其中有15個條文是想說家大業大像Meta 像Google它對社會影響一定比較大就讓你們也承認它現在詐騙金額還是最大的所以我們其中有15個條文很綿密的去規範這個對台灣社會影響最大的現在規定5%以上的就沒想到我們留了一條"},{"start":6868.869,"end":6886.596,"text":"留一條就是說你不夠大你就大概就唯一死刑的概念所以你到底是不是窮盡一切我想請教一下這個張主任是這是你們的通知嘛你確認一下好不好你們的通知稿裡面新聞稿特別講你們有通知小紅書應該自行針對平台內不法內容"},{"start":6887.536,"end":6901.746,"text":"進行有效管理影響比較小的方式你們主要內容是這個要求他你這有詐騙內容不法內容你要進行有效的管理這是你們的一個新聞稿最後是小紅書他沒有回應"},{"start":6903.223,"end":6918.137,"text":"對不對是包委員 這個是你們新聞稿對 我們新聞稿那就是說它的前提的原先的部分是行政院打壓中心這邊有針對這一個小紅書先通知他們要做有效管理那因為沒有回應"},{"start":6920.023,"end":6942.164,"text":"很好 那我就請問一下因為我們想有一些法律因為這個境外的網路所有在世界各地都有都有有時候也許阿拉伯的軟體我們目前沒有用但是未來有可能用在境外的像這種平台是非常多的我請問你的一致性因為現在網路包括一堆人在說的主要的原因主要原因就是它沒有落地"},{"start":6942.825,"end":6969.881,"text":"主要在外面論述包括政論節目包括某黨的po文第一個就是因為我們叫他他不落地那當然待會問數位部嘛因為數位部你沒有依法公告他是一定規模的所以他當然就沒有落地的一個所以你在講這個到底是你要求他管理還是因為他沒有落地就你警政署是因為他沒有落地嗎所以把他封鎖一年是不是因為他沒有落地是還是不是"},{"start":6971.182,"end":6998.524,"text":"幫委員這個當然因為他沒有納管所以沒有因為他沒有落地所以當然沒有納管那我這邊跟委員報告其實很謝謝委員這邊的指導現在其實跟您報告其實我這邊講一個數據其實大概委員們也都知道其實現在七個平台跟小紅樹的話數據的部分其實我跟大家報告其實確確實實在詐騙的數據大家看到因為他的用戶多所以Meta用戶多相對他會招詐的人數也會比較多不是 是不是他沒有落地你剛剛那個邏輯錯了"},{"start":7000.205,"end":7024.236,"text":"因為他沒有落地 所以沒有納管那個法條就規定先要把他公告5%以上或者一定規模以上他才按照第28條裡面他有一些權益義務才出來報委員他的27條規定是這樣就是說他每一個月獨立的訪客數我知道 數位部在後面數位部的公文公告就沒有小紅書所以他會到達那個規模"},{"start":7025.356,"end":7053.551,"text":"沒有到達規模所以跟他落不落地因為法律沒有要求他落地所以不是這個原因坊間很多亂傳也不是你們要求是因為他沒有落地第二個請問一下因為這個送達通知很重要你們尤其我們警政署檢調在辦案都很重要就是說我通知一定要通知到你不然到時候你可以講說你是當事人所以你們現在不斷說我透過陸委會透過海基會然後就"},{"start":7054.531,"end":7082.173,"text":"就通知了嗎難道你不知道海軍會陸委會已經已讀不回已經很多年了嗎我就請教你如果你的公文書在其他人手上沒有送到你的我是法人也好我是個人沒有送到我送達通知或者到我的派出所做一個寄存送達通知我們台灣的法令嘛對不對你的意思就是說你推定小紅數位回應但我就請教一下"},{"start":7083.376,"end":7091.539,"text":"海基會有沒有跟你說已經把這個公文對方已經透過海協會送給當事人簽章的公文有沒有回給你嗎"},{"start":7094.086,"end":7117.702,"text":"報告委員因為我們是在跨部會討論的時候那有受上級這個打到中間這邊有開會所以沒有嘛所以就是說我丟出去了即使是中間人那也不管我不管可是你這樣去推定一家法人不好意思因為你收到的通知不作為其實我是覺得在法理上是有問題的再來現在明明就是網路嘛"},{"start":7118.542,"end":7129.605,"text":"那就請問一下你們辦案的那種精神有沒有透過他的網路網站或者他直接透過網路直接跟這家法人小黃叔聯絡有沒有"},{"start":7131.571,"end":7152.349,"text":"因為我們這個偵查面的部分就是沒有一個窗口可以去掉所以你這麼緊急的事你用42條是非常緊急對我們人民非常危害所以你一通電話也不願意打給當事人你一個網路也不願意給他的話然後你就說做這樣推論那我就第三個請教你的專業"},{"start":7154.059,"end":7175.092,"text":"你們12月6號才你們刑事局才公布而且不要誤會兩岸共打好好的一切非常好那就請問一下你們公告一切非常好的在小紅書事件上面你們要交換情資相關的打擊犯罪不管是這個平台業者是提供犯罪的一個場所他都是你們兩岸共打的可以交換情資"},{"start":7176.253,"end":7203.935,"text":"請問一下小紅蘇這件事情在封網之前你有沒有透過兩岸共打要求他傳遞訊息或者提供情資 有還是沒有幫委員 那個跟您報告其實在各類重大案件的部分如果外勤大隊有查到嫌犯在大陸那邊都會透過兩岸共打由我們的刑事局 兩岸科不是啊 那你這個這麼好的管道你透過它因為各案 因為七項今年1到4月是756件沒有我跟你講"},{"start":7204.816,"end":7232.657,"text":"我想因為時間已經快到了我只是說啊未來換了一家在美國在韓國在哪裡的我覺得你們沒有道理這個信記了不管有沒有就是我送他他不回應你們這樣去推理怪怪的第二個呢也不要省力他有電話那麼緊急的事情你為什麼不打他有email"},{"start":7233.317,"end":7258.555,"text":"他有Homepage你不聯絡就是我什麼能做都不做不好意思就是他不理我我覺得這很離譜那就請問一下警政署再請教一下請問一下你們未達5%的你看右下角未達5%的小紅數字排第二詐騙的件數目前你們打詐一標版警政署公布的他第二名447件那就請問一下第一名Telegram"},{"start":7260.557,"end":7279.257,"text":"2254件 那目前你們是警政組怎麼弄 危害很小他危害比較小就 我不講Meta好不好就是5%以下未公告的這一群弄在一起你們打造一標標板 Telegram你目前做什麼處理嘛 我講說處理一致性就好啦你們做什麼處理 請說明"},{"start":7280.595,"end":7300.85,"text":"包委員這個部分我們會回去會再去做檢討所以每一個部分是 你掛在那一標板掛了快大半年因為我們一標板它的數據會一直更新的每天都更新可能昨天是2248件你不講這個是很無聊我在問你們你們警政署辦這個案我講我支持平台這詐騙本來當然就有責任"},{"start":7302.992,"end":7317.511,"text":"他應該要回應嘛我只第一個問題說你們該去做的事情 該通知的你真的有沒有把它當作一件詐騙人民受損這麼危急的事件一個E-mail也不願意傳一個電話也不願意打我就覺得有點莫名其妙Telegram"},{"start":7319.195,"end":7338.369,"text":"你們現在沒有處理嗎來你們有沒有處理Telegram第一名所以你現在就人家在問這個問題好不好你不要講公告的那四家七個平台那我就講這第一名你們意思說第一名沒有處理第一名有 有沒有通知包委員這個部分我回去再了解再跟你講我的天啊"},{"start":7340.086,"end":7358.751,"text":"你有沒有通知你要通知他我們在案件裡面偵查裡面基本上只要是有涉及到我們都會也都會聯繫你答不出來我就懂的所以實際上email也會發你是誰啊你是誰 張主任我很尊重你你是專門負責這個詐欺方面的你是專業的你是這個人的主任"},{"start":7359.671,"end":7387.976,"text":"你對這麼大的一個平台業者你居然答不出來我覺得真的是我覺得是這個事情就有點悲哀了但是Telegram你要通知誰是要通知他我們目前實務上面確實也都無法通知你要通知他俄羅斯的原創者還要通知他英國的公司還要通知他杜拜的開發團隊你要通知誰我告訴你根本沒有通知我的意思就是說你們怎麼在處理這個我就2,250事件是加注在我們人民的詐騙案件"},{"start":7389.016,"end":7396.046,"text":"你痛不痛 你不痛你不會痛嘛那看到別的覺得很痛我是希望這個處理的一致性最後一個問題請教"},{"start":7398.57,"end":7419.877,"text":"請教那個數位是NCC上來一下好不好其他我就不用問這個法律我就不問了最後一個問題請教一下剛剛講了這麼多到底譬如說像小紅書這類的不管是平台網路廣告業者到底屬於誰管啊我兩邊問來問去啊那個我先請問蘇部長蘇衛部部長是"},{"start":7421.177,"end":7444.027,"text":"這個是到昨天為止你們這個產業署署長特別還親自跟我確認他認為小紅書屬於UGC下面有說明就使用者生成的內容他認為類似現在NCC管理的PGC專業生成內容他認為是一樣的所以這個事情應該是NCC管你認不認同署長這樣說的"},{"start":7447.128,"end":7472.595,"text":"因為小紅書它有三個特性它一個是網路短影音的社群平台所以第一個是平台然後短跟影音然後影音的話是NCC來管可是社群平台實際上是我書發部在管的所以這個地方會有一些疑義會在這個地方所以說人家用影音被騙了就去找NCC沒有"},{"start":7474.635,"end":7492.57,"text":"網路被騙找你是什麼意思這個地方我在努力在你們再協調一下好不好我會努力協調雙方說法完全不一樣該是我們要管的我們就應該管因為社群平台這個是我們在管的然後如果說不是社團社群平台形式的短影音的話像那個"},{"start":7493.911,"end":7521.513,"text":"像那個Netflix那些是NCC在管這個部長我覺得你們要協調好因為我要幫這個警政署講個話他們業務這個到底針對是誰到底怎麼樣去做是最精準最快不要轉說抱歉這是影音所以給找他這是我我覺得這樣不行那NCC陳處長嗎你講一下你們今天的報告你們認為這個是主管機關就是數位部嘛表明說是數位部嘛NCC只是幫忙的協力嘛是不是"},{"start":7522.513,"end":7539.883,"text":"跟委員報告其實網路內容的處理在行政院有訂了一個網際網路內容處理及分工原則裡面有相關的部會有相關分工給誰你覺得這個網路的內容裡面這個影音的部分在那個分工原則裡面有規有規範在裡面給誰"},{"start":7542.322,"end":7559.185,"text":"目前是看他的內容是屬於哪一部分就剛剛我真的很佩服你們最後一句話大家都期待我們打造的團隊在第一線全職還搞不太清楚很多的一些問題像Telegram你怎麼會"},{"start":7561.274,"end":7585.653,"text":"抓中間的然後去忽略到對我們危害最大的然後你新聞稿口口聲聲說這已經對我們我們的人民危害非常嚴重400多件嚴重不得了我支持 平台要負責然後200多件還沒處理我是希望說幾個單位拜託能夠待會去參考好不好我們會盡快釐清這個權責我們也很希望把這個權責劃分清楚這樣我們才好辦事好的 謝謝"},{"start":7588.598,"end":7613.14,"text":"好這次感謝盧明哲委員質詢不過謝謝 官員請回不過我也提醒官員拜託不要已經有公告的所謂的網際網路分工原則委員都已經詢問得那麼的清楚了連回答都不能回答是還要委員回去看資料是不是如果是這樣的話那我們官員每一個上來回答都說網路上有寫自己去看"},{"start":7614.524,"end":7636.383,"text":"這不是一個回應民意的正確態度委員在這邊代表民眾來跟官員質詢就教請官員把詳細的資料清楚明白具體回應好 接下來再請蔡啟昌委員質詢謝謝那蔡啟昌委員質詢完畢之後我們休息10分鐘謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":7644.537,"end":7668.508,"text":"請林部長來 林部長請黃執行秘書跟張主任黃執行 張主任請委員好部長好 大家好痞還沒有繃緊我不是說你啦我說團隊痞還沒有繃緊這算還加沒硬"},{"start":7671.581,"end":7698.566,"text":"我想部長知道其他的各位長官本席在這裡我講過只要抒發不來我就只問詐騙謝謝主席今天特別排社群平台的這個打詐打詐是要國家隊每天把林部長罵到臭頭沒有啦也沒辦法也沒辦法啦還好啦一定要是一個團隊那本席做法很簡單小紅書"},{"start":7701.414,"end":7730.196,"text":"不管他來自哪裡啦他叫什麼小白書 小綠書都一樣只要他在社群平台是國人喜歡用國人有一定比例在使用的你們就要一致性的處理啦譬如說沒落地的你們應該直接法規規定嘛這涉及到我國家都用國家打炸隊要來處理的為什麼我們不能夠去規定"},{"start":7731.417,"end":7756.209,"text":"我在處理打詐我在處理犯罪偵查那國家的態度在法規上我講過很多遍你需要立法院立法的我們一定支持哪一個立委敢不支持打詐哪一個政黨不支持打詐第二個你們不需要在立法院立法你們透過你們的行政手段行政命令可以處理的要有一個整體性"},{"start":7757.523,"end":7785.388,"text":"不能讓委員在這裡問你們還答得讓大家覺得好像你們自己也搞不清楚誰要處理什麼所以很簡單嘛第一個沒有落地的已讀不回的我就規定你什麼叫已讀不回你在包庇詐騙我都還要求你知道說我現在正在處理你不是但我們做一個法治國家程序就是要講清楚"},{"start":7787.403,"end":7814.577,"text":"程序就是譬如說我就是透過email送達我就是透過什麼樣的方式你留的什麼位置我幫你送達你接不接我們國人涉及到法院通知他依照法院的程序把它做完了然後你去法院說不好意思我出國沒收到你覺得這個理由可以嗎也不行因為我們程序還是照這樣在走是不是這樣子"},{"start":7815.771,"end":7828.236,"text":"市長跟委員報告一下有關於小黃素的部分因為他為什麼會這次會針對這部分因為其實比如說像剛剛委員講Telegram其實Telegram他比較接近通訊軟體他的"},{"start":7830.613,"end":7855.096,"text":"帳部範圍通常都是一對一的部分然後至於可以在公開的場合裡面會貼文會有不特定能看到的部分除了這四大業者之外再來的最多就是小紅書因為前面四大業者的詐騙訊息雖然多可是他已經有被列管了然後再因為再來說對於沒有被納管的部分可是我們又不能期待說那沒有納管我們不能理他"},{"start":7855.816,"end":7882.764,"text":"然後我們也確實的透過海基會發文給想要出入的不是啦 你還是誤解我的意思啦我要你的是一個標準啦譬如說我管你是社群軟體還是怎樣你在網路上有一定的社群有社群平台的意義你定義好就好嘛你把它定義好說你是網路上的社群平台或者有一定程度作為群組通訊軟體使用"},{"start":7884.693,"end":7906.077,"text":"你自己定義嘛不會定義叫抒發部定義嘛那我這些我一律納管那我納管完之後我告訴你不管你人在美國在英國在俄羅斯在中國不管我的告知程序就是什麼你沒有按照我的告知程序我就辦你法制的基礎在於一套標準大家都適用"},{"start":7907.807,"end":7931.631,"text":"不會因為他是中國啦 不是因為他叫小紅書這裡面有涉及到什麼統戰啊一大堆 沒有 我就是在打詐嘛所以我的法律程序完備 我告訴你程序是什麼我管你是Telegram 我管你是什麼臉書什麼一大堆的譬如說我舉例 部長沒有落地的有多少家社群平台沒有落地"},{"start":7932.837,"end":7947.055,"text":"因為落地並不是一個精準的法律名詞所以分成兩個方面來講第一個就是他在台灣有沒有設立子公司或分公司這是一種所謂的落地另外一種是設立法律代表那依照我們現在的炸房條例其實講的兩者都沒有的有多少家"},{"start":7949.209,"end":7977.221,"text":"太多了啦這個因為全世界我現在講說我們一定程度比例它叫做社群平台是這樣的社群平台有多少家在你們認知這樣不管叫大中小是因為我們就是依照我們納管那我們現在納管有四家公司七個平台那四家公司七個平台他們在台灣都是設立法律代表那我們要求他他才會來設立法律代表那小紅書有沒有設立法律代表沒有對嘛所以我的意思就是你們要把"},{"start":7978.203,"end":7981.86,"text":"要件都把它說清楚嗎你們到底在規範人家什麼"},{"start":7984.193,"end":8009.17,"text":"你列管的假設你列管叫做不管他大中小你們列管叫20家好了在20家裡面只要被你列管他一定要有什麼樣的程序譬如說他一定要有法律代表他一定要有子公司你們去把規定規定好讓所有在台灣經商不管他哪一國人來台灣要做生意要做網路的生意社群平台的生意他清楚知道我們的要件是什麼"},{"start":8010.18,"end":8033.669,"text":"那你不符合要件我就處理你嘛因為我在打詐你還不配合我就處理你我就在打詐裡面就相關組就把它規定好嘛是部長你現在懂我的意思嗎因為我們現在造訪條例第27條就是規定我們納管然後第29條就是規定納管以後他必須設立法律代表這在我們造訪條例裡面其實都有清楚的規定所以很簡單嘛解釋小紅書就是他沒有"},{"start":8034.329,"end":8053.64,"text":"他被納管然後他沒有設立任何在台灣連法律代表都沒有因為他現在還達不到我們納管的標準所以目前小紅書都在我們納管所以你要清楚知道說那你要不要納管他那你不納管你的要件是什麼你的對象是誰"},{"start":8054.801,"end":8070.345,"text":"是 跟委員說明一下因為第27條到造訪條例27條到33條都是規範說我們數位發展部要如何去納管這些網路廣告平台但是這次內政部發出的這個文它是依照第42條並不是依照第27條到33條對 那依照27條它的要件是什麼"},{"start":8075.667,"end":8098.624,"text":"請副署長說明報告委員127條我們在這個113年的9月的時候有做了一個公佈就是說什麼樣叫做達到一定規模的標準它有兩個要件第一個要件就是說如果經過165這邊來通報的高風險然後同時呢對 那小紅書符不符合因為我們沒有接到這個部分的通報然後另外一個條件是那小紅書你們依照第幾條"},{"start":8100.566,"end":8102.713,"text":"小紅書內政部依照第42條第42條裡面的要件是什麼要請內政部說明"},{"start":8111.605,"end":8134.459,"text":"報告委員我們的要件基本上就是為了要及時防治讓人民在持續去接觸這個詐欺網站所以我們要針對他的要件就是說因為他為了要防治詐欺那怕這網站持續在那邊讓很多人持續去接觸之後遭到受害那因為他本身就是規範在這一個只要是沒有納管的平台業者我們都會想方設法去用這條來去做處理"},{"start":8136.258,"end":8151.567,"text":"對那你為什麼不把明確的達到一個什麼標準就符合42條他的標準就是委員就是前面講27條他沒到達他的獨立訪客數會到達我國人口的百分之四對他未到達放到未到達的37未到達的42對不對"},{"start":8155.399,"end":8178.376,"text":"不是不是基本上那個27條到這個有兩條路就是說我們作為那個做出處置一個是說從27條到33條就抒發部走一條路但是第41條裡面有42條裡面有規定就是說那個司法警察機關可以在緊急狀緊急案件的時候直接要求那個停止血清或限制"},{"start":8179.577,"end":8195.63,"text":"接取所以這是兩條路那我們剛才委員問我們這邊的我們是那個速發部走的這條路那另外一條路從42條這個就是因為內政部警政署也是屬於司法警察機關的那個一部分所以根據42條你們要怎麼通知他"},{"start":8198.978,"end":8222.12,"text":"邦委員因為他本身就是在我們台灣沒有法律代表所以我們在通知就無法通知那之前的部分在打壓中心這邊其實就是有先針對這個部分先行文去透過海基會帶轉所以我就跟你們講為什麼要這樣子為什麼不把42條弄明白為什麼不明確告訴你在符合4條我的要件就是什麼"},{"start":8223.697,"end":8241.64,"text":"你不能等詐欺的人他都一直不接受通知那你要怎麼辦繼續被罵做一個民主法治的國家就是我很清楚告訴你你來我這裡我的法律對你要求的要件是什麼清清楚楚明明白白"},{"start":8242.762,"end":8270.562,"text":"所以你用一個緊急一下去處理我很贊成我講過嘛打炸我是沒有在管這個的啦我就是堅持我覺得人民在打炸上受害很嚴重所以你們要去處理但是你們為什麼不把你怎麼知道未來還有一個有沒有可能小白書小綠書小藍書都有可能所以就是剛剛蘇發佈有講說這個還有其他沒有納管的很多因為他未來網路世界會增加那你為什麼不達到一個比例你就進入納管為什麼"},{"start":8272.398,"end":8282.2,"text":"所以比例是定在那個百分之五對 那為什麼你覺得小紅書都已經很嚴重了他雖然會打百分之三很嚴重你為什麼不把標準往下調 為什麼所以我們事實上其實是用一個概括性的就是說針對無法納管的做概括性的一個那你們就是很簡單你的無法納管的你們又自己用很緊急的狀況去處理然後緊急的狀況去處理程序是什麼又不清楚"},{"start":8302.54,"end":8324.66,"text":"你現在懂我在講什麼嗎 我的意思是說 你們家不安就是這樣嘛你們覺得很重要要處理了你們覺得5%的規範根本就遏制不了打炸那你們就應該調啊為什麼不把法律完備呢讓社會質疑呢讓很多委員同仁在這裡不斷的挑戰你們呢"},{"start":8326.421,"end":8352.684,"text":"本席就已經講過嘛 打詐沒有分藍綠嘛打詐也沒有分國籍 你在我中華民國在這裡你作為打詐集團的幫兇 作為他們的工具讓台灣人受害 我就是要處理你嘛是 謝委員 我們回去會做研究這個部分你們應該趕快把要件說清楚我中華民國的法令就是如此我對打詐就是深惡痛絕 這是台灣人最痛恨的事情"},{"start":8354.04,"end":8377.273,"text":"為什麼這麼痛恨的事情你們不把他當一回事 尬給他 把他頂到清廁你要來我台灣做生意 我就是這樣要求你我讓你沒有模糊空間啊是誰會反對嗎 台灣人現在對你們要打詐嚴格大家是怎樣 社會輿論覺得不行 大家應該容忍打詐沒有嘛 大家很希望你拿出辦法來嘛"},{"start":8379.036,"end":8406.272,"text":"行政院也成立了是詐欺的 打詐的指揮中心警政署也有打詐的NCC也在打詐各部會都在打詐連本席說那個WBC的票我們去檢舉有人在網路上賣那個根本就是假的我看我們那個平台也轉到運動部請運動部查證這個平台是不是假的 是不是詐騙所以運動部也要打詐"},{"start":8407.472,"end":8425.615,"text":"所以叫國家隊嘛國家在打詐都已經用國家力量在處理囉為什麼在法規的明確跟程序上還要在那邊緊急來緊急去呢我管你幾% 5% 5%沒辦法處理那些3%的我就降為3%為什麼不能降為3%"},{"start":8428.077,"end":8455.709,"text":"3%再不行2%很嚴重都發生在這2%我就降了2%然後我就告訴你來我這裡做生意只要你這裡有幾%我就告訴你要件是什麼你已讀不回你在這裡沒有法律的代理人我就直接處理你甚至我規定你一定要有代理人這個就是我們要國家要做打詐我們要有辦法要嚴厲的手段嘛為什麼不行呢為什麼不做呢"},{"start":8458.072,"end":8485.991,"text":"懂了吧 懂 謝委員 本時今天只要講這個 是是 家不安啦 要再創 這樣不通啦是 謝委員 台灣人民不能接受我們每天隨機殺人 人民很恐慌啊但是隨機殺人的機率跟打炸他幾乎每天可以可以接觸到歹徒耶他每天在面對打炸的時候他幾乎每天面對歹徒耶很嚴重啦 好不好是 謝謝委員 是"},{"start":8487.915,"end":8489.416,"text":"交通委員會現在休息10分鐘 10分鐘之後繼續開會"},{"start":8520.811,"end":8547.108,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9101.533,"end":9117.392,"text":"好感謝現在交通委員會繼續開會我們請邱洛華委員質詢謝謝好謝謝主席主席先請速發部林部長來林部長請"},{"start":9124.838,"end":9147.376,"text":"邱委員早安部長早今天的專題報告幾個類型的機關像是速發部還有NCC法務部還有行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心都提出了大量的數據都表示已經有成效了那民眾真的想問還有他們在意的並不是說你們做了多少事為什麼政府說詐騙在下降可是每天打開手機還是有民眾收片"},{"start":9147.936,"end":9174.085,"text":"那也有就是還是會在平台上面看到詐騙的廣告那我今天要提問的問題全部來自你們書面報告中的內容那我們先看到根據行政院打詐指揮中心的報告今年11月詐騙的財損約59億那較去年同期下降53%那假投資還有詐騙的案件還有財損也分別下降67%然後還有71%那我肯定跨部會的努力合作嘛那也是也要請教部長"},{"start":9174.585,"end":9184.204,"text":"那這些數字是不是已經有排除詐騙的手法從私訊然後轉移到封閉的社群然後還有他們換帳號然後再投放的可能性呢"},{"start":9184.964,"end":9206.15,"text":"是 這個部分坦白講我們並沒有很精確的數字因為在封閉性的社群裡面或者是用網路通訊軟體部長沒關係 雖然您現在說沒有掌握到數字碼那有沒有這個排除的可能性還是我們只是把詐騙從A管道轉到B管道從一個平台轉換到另外一個平台呢"},{"start":9207.191,"end":9227.132,"text":"是 事實上委員講到這個問題我們必須很正 必須去正視因為如同我之前常常講的是詐騙是打詐是好人跟壞人之間不斷的攻防我們現在把很多的詐騙管道把它堵住了但是詐騙集團會尋找新的詐騙的那個破洞所以這個它不斷在變形"},{"start":9227.772,"end":9242.922,"text":"它雖然不斷在變形不知道我們有沒有一個跨平台還有跨樣態尤其是跨樣態的整體風險追蹤指標而不是只是單一的同胞像蘇發部有這個打債APP還有不只是單一的同胞然後還有下架的數量"},{"start":9244.821,"end":9266.691,"text":"整個打詐的工作事實上是跨部會在進行的主要的負責是內政部他們那邊成立的打詐指揮中心我們速發部這邊負責的就是網路上面的詐騙我們要想辦法遏止網路上的詐騙目前我們觀察到的情形的確是網路上譬如說在Facebook上"},{"start":9266.991,"end":9294.785,"text":"因為速發部一直在網路上面做努力你們有建置了網路詐騙通報的查詢網也有通報Meta還有Google像Line大量涉詐的內容那也有對Meta進行裁罰我看到是1850萬那我想請教主要的一個問題那是否我們現在看到是不是都是集中在我們下架了多少就只是數字上面那有沒有一個指標它可以衡量在民眾接觸之前我們就已經成功的阻斷了這個詐騙的比例"},{"start":9295.965,"end":9323.722,"text":"有 這個就是我們把我們的通報跟Meta已經通報了超過24萬則的詐騙訊息然後Meta它去訓練它的AI平台那它已經阻斷了針對台灣的詐騙訊息超過780萬則這個就是在 部長您一直都有提到已經下架了已經確認這些詐騙訊息是超過23萬 24萬則就表示這些內容在通報之前它已經成功地投放過了"},{"start":9324.082,"end":9344.68,"text":"他也成功的曝光然后民众也接收到了所以我们在讲的在要讨论的是事情这样我理解委员律师没错我们要尽量缩短这个他上架的时间所以我们一直朝这个方面努力那现在我们通报给Facebook的那个诈骗广告他们平均应该是3.5个小时"},{"start":9346.361,"end":9367.891,"text":"3.5個小時就會下架然後如果是一般的訊息非廣告的那個一般的詐騙訊息的話是平均是8個小時他們會下架我們在報告中裡面也看到說Meta現在是最大宗嘛那對Facebook他們來說廣告他們這廣告組只要他們付得起他們就可以投放廣告然後系統也會進行推送這些廣告嘛所以對他們來說這些就跟一般的"},{"start":9368.631,"end":9387.347,"text":"廣告組是一樣的他們不會去分辨這是不是詐騙的廣告沒有錯吧等一下這個就是我剛才講的我們就是要求Meta跟我們合作讓他們主動下封組了780萬則這個大部分這些廣告或者訊息就是連上架都還沒有上架他們偵測到就把它封組掉了就把它封組掉"},{"start":9388.548,"end":9407.97,"text":"因為目前還是時時刻刻也還是有詐騙廣告在Facebook上面嘛那我也不是我不是要求主管機關要介入他們的演算法那要請教蘇發布我們是不是可以再跟平台共同合作然後提出防詐計畫的時候就要求平台說明這些詐騙的內容然後還有是否因應推薦還有"},{"start":9408.951,"end":9422.405,"text":"推播這些廣告而被放大因為這個是有關他們的觸及率嘛是 沒錯 那我們有沒有一個制度性的措施來降低這種被放大的風險是 就是如同我們剛才講的還有就是委員現在那個"},{"start":9424.475,"end":9440.84,"text":"這個做出來那個投影片上面上面有寫洪志去年也有官員到美國跟平台高層高通那時候就是我主要是想請蘇柏副部長說我們不是要介入他們的演算法那我們是不是可以請平台就是他們提出他們是不是可以針對這些詐騙內容來避免被放大的情形"},{"start":9441.34,"end":9457.27,"text":"是 那個就是我們談的內容就是這樣而且我們要求各個平台出透明度報告裡面也都必須有這些制度性的作為那我們是不是請我們素產署黃副署長補充說明 謝謝是 謝謝委員"},{"start":9458.19,"end":9477.082,"text":"我們因為對於納管的網路廣告平台業者會要求他們要提供防炸計畫書這個防炸計畫書裡面就會有去做他的風險的一個評估那到了年底的時候在每年年底之前要出具他的透明度報告書所以他有沒有依照他的防炸計畫書去執行這個部分他必須要去做"},{"start":9477.982,"end":9498.167,"text":"宣誓請問部長我們對Meta裁罰了1850萬那您認為他們有改善的動機嗎還是這只是一個誘因因為對於他們來說他們95%的收入都是來自於廣告剛剛也有委員提到他們的是非常可觀的那他們不改那只會他們繼續去繼續做這件事然後他們還是繼續賺錢嘛那對於這樣的裁罰設計對平台你認為來說這是對他們來說是可預期的嗎"},{"start":9506.39,"end":9530.33,"text":"的確對於像Meta這樣的國際型大公司來講我們之前給他裁罰1850萬對他們來講並不是一筆很大的錢但是最重要的就是我們這個裁罰不是為了報復也不是因為我們缺錢政府缺這1850萬最重要我們是希望他改變他的行為希望他們加入我們打炸的行列加入我們所謂的好人隊這邊而且必須做系統性的去改善"},{"start":9530.35,"end":9549.706,"text":"那我們也要注意到如果這個裁罰對他們的行為沒有辦法改變的話那只是問題還是存在那再多的通報再多的下架那還是把問題往後延那這邊再請NCC是 有 他們應該是有改善雖然我們還是不是完全滿意但是那個Meta有在朝好的方向進展謝謝"},{"start":9553.849,"end":9573.696,"text":"委員長處長好 處長我直接就問一個問題門號是NCC管的沒有錯嘛是那NCC可以管門號也管得了門號那為什麼帳號還是滿天飛嘛因為這些帳號都是要透過門號去做註冊嘛像Facebook還是Line還是Google那NCC的報告也有指出以停話或限進將近1.6萬的門號也攔阻了5000萬的境外通話也攔阻了20萬個詐騙的網域那"},{"start":9580.098,"end":9600.76,"text":"請問這些被停化還有限制的門號有多少是造成實際詐騙之前就你們就已經意識到了還是民眾受害之後被停化之後然後你們才掌握到跟委員報告那個停化的部分我們配合台高檢的一個平台我們有把停化的資料送給台高檢然後送給一些那個平台這邊來清理所以"},{"start":9601.721,"end":9630.426,"text":"之前在整個政府的座位裡面已經有把停話的資料送給平台這邊然後有停了斷話的那個帳號把它停掉的措施村長因為這個詐騙的流程它是要有門號然後在平台上面去辦理註冊然後再透過廣告或是私訊詐騙民眾那你會不會覺得這些門話被停話之前那詐騙的任務他們都已經達成了那你們NCC這邊還能不能就是說就是從源頭我們都說要從源頭來落實賭占你們這邊可以再做到什麼樣的因應"},{"start":9631.446,"end":9648.862,"text":"所以跟委員報告就是在整個打詐的作為裡面通傳會這邊有把這個已經有人有知道這個門號拿來做詐騙的部分的這個停話之後把這個門號的資料送給平台這邊因為那個是帳號"},{"start":9650.624,"end":9668.261,"text":"不管是金管會還是說社群平台的那把那些帳號可能還沒有我這邊因為時間的關係我這邊再請教部長一個問題我們都討論要實名制那實名制會不會變成就民眾彷彿因為看到有實名制他們反而放心了因為有經過實名制嘛是 部長"},{"start":9669.923,"end":9685.214,"text":"我們不會應該不會做完全的實名制因為這個實名制會有侵犯到民眾隱私的狀況所以除了中國以外其他主要國家應該都沒有做在網路上完全實施實名制我們是希望做類實名制就是"},{"start":9685.974,"end":9715.141,"text":"譬如說購買一些比較敏感的產品的時候那必須做實名的認證還有就是說我們會希望透過數位憑證皮夾這種技術就是主動揭露譬如說你這個帳戶的擁有者是不是台灣人還是外國人這個地方我們希望這些平台能做而且部長因為民眾最在意的還是就是他們不會被詐騙然後也不會誤信這些詐騙然後最重要是他們畢生的積蓄不會因為詐騙然後一夕之間全沒了那再請NCC還有書發部還有相關的各部會一起共同"},{"start":9715.501,"end":9724.326,"text":"是 我們會努力 謝謝委員的指教 謝謝謝謝邱陸華委員 官員請回好 接下來再請葛盧軍委員質詢"},{"start":9742.923,"end":9757.748,"text":"好謝謝主席有請行政院打詐指揮中心執密王崇盛王執密請委員早"},{"start":9758.806,"end":9774.845,"text":"紫密早這個依據行政院打詐指揮中心設置要點這個中心人員組成設置指揮官一人是由內政部的馬事員次長兼任你應該很明確知道那我們今天會議的議程也有邀請內政部"},{"start":9777.145,"end":9797.66,"text":"好 這個是 這個好 這個待會再還我幾秒謝謝那這個還是馬次長這個馬次長也是內政部的次長但是馬次長卻選擇要缺席今天的會議我想所有質詢的委員或者在線上收看的民眾可能都會非常失望那本席在此要表達不解與深刻的遺憾"},{"start":9798.28,"end":9816.815,"text":"那不要浪費我們召委用心的安排一個這麼重要的角色結果在今天竟然沒有出席這一點希望幫忙轉達一下這個未來我們希望能夠跟他有更多的互動那依據這個打架中心的設置要點指揮中心的任務包括統籌五國打擊 詐欺犯罪還有協調跨部會的"},{"start":9818.416,"end":9842.513,"text":"詐欺打詐的這個犯罪的這個打詐犯罪的防治的分工那想請問一下紫密您知道目前就這個詐欺犯罪防治危害條例這個第32第33條有關詐騙廣告詐騙訊息跟涉詐帳號的通報下架作業在政府部門端有哪幾個主要的管道"},{"start":9844.95,"end":9862.595,"text":"先跟委員報告一下其實在32條跟33條的部分其實在政府不能端最主要是第一個就是由數位部有建立的長大通報查詢網其實第二個部分其實各個業者都有跟警政署或司法機關做CPC的一個管道"},{"start":9863.095,"end":9880.424,"text":"好 很好事實上您提供的這個答案就明確說明了我們兩大體系一個是速發部剛剛我們都聽到很多打造通茶網或其他的機制還有一個是警政系統在中央是透過警政署的刑事警察局在地方則是各縣市政府的警察局"},{"start":9881.404,"end":9897.895,"text":"根據我們了解甚至小到派出所都可以透過警政系統建立的平台來請平台業者封鎖疑似的帳號我們得到一些數字說今年統計到11月為止Meta 色詐的廣告 貼文粉專帳號下架達14.8萬多件"},{"start":9900.376,"end":9924.395,"text":"這是我們的政府宣稱的一個打詐成效然而我們今天各部會所提供的報告大部分或幾乎全部都沒有提到被錯誤下架的民眾該如何申訴民眾又如何保障您從警政系統出來我們警察抓壞人可以隨便傷及無辜嗎是不行 不可以 很好您回答得很好在這裡我要這個肯定"},{"start":9924.955,"end":9945.914,"text":"金管會的部分就有一頁講了人工輔助AI要減少誤判沒錯 因為我們不能傷及無辜前一陣子發生好多起經營已久的粉專去遭到政府通報網路平台業者封鎖下架累積超過18萬粉絲的專業一夕之間被封鎖了"},{"start":9946.695,"end":9963.196,"text":"裡面提到他說是刑事警察局他聯絡了以後Meta說不知道是哪一個刑事單位用了非常長的時間當然最後我們還是要肯定我們的警政單位跟我們的Meta還是協助他恢復了"},{"start":9963.616,"end":9983.656,"text":"但這還是18萬帳號的粉絲我們幾百個帳號錯殺的陳情者可能沒有這樣子的一個能力跟運氣他們只是看到一個這個刑事警察局相關的這個單位結果他可能家庭照片工作往來 營生的工具社群經營的成果這個帳號"},{"start":9985.518,"end":10003.5,"text":"就這樣可能被一個地方警局可能是誤解或誤會按下一個鈕整個數位世界的人生被下架刪除還不能知道是哪個政府機關做的要怎麼做的那我想啊這個他們的自己的數位賬號也是他的人權"},{"start":10004.161,"end":10019.304,"text":"也有權利要拿回來它像這些行政機關申訴那本席爭取了很久好不容易我們理解到Meta在上週跟警政系統的通報封鎖下架的頁面做了修改本來是一律寫刑事警察局"},{"start":10020.245,"end":10047.766,"text":"改成實際通報的警局這一點我們要謝謝刑事警察局不斷向Meta提出改善建議平台也配合但是這樣還是不夠的我們希望能夠逐步的要求整個通報下架帳號以及民眾無辜民眾的申訴流程和數據要更加透明公開請教執密您知道近三個月來警政通報系統多少民眾的申訴案件嗎當中又有多少確定是誤報而復權的案件 您知道嗎"},{"start":10048.246,"end":10074.918,"text":"不好意思我們手上沒有這個資訊我回去了解之後跟你回報沒錯 事實上我們也確認了這些數據連警政署都沒有掌握還要進一步的去跟地方警局來調資料更何況行政院您在打炸中心更難得知為什麼會這樣問因為執迷您代表行政院來我們就希望很沉重的來告訴你這不是一個使用者個別的抱怨因為這是影響到人的數位人權"},{"start":10075.638,"end":10100.476,"text":"而且這除了是數位人權的侵害以外還可能影響到實體人權為什麼12月15號開始美國宣布申請五種簽證入境的人要公開社群帳號如果我要入境美國結果突然被打詐誤刪誤打誤下架我就沒辦法申請了我沒辦法申請這些簽證這甚至會侵害到憲法賦予的人權"},{"start":10101.357,"end":10131.157,"text":"居住 遷徙那台灣對於人權的侵害不能延伸到數位的世界來我們相信每一位通報下架社群帳號的員警都是本於全責想要打擊犯罪但是實際上能和Meta或平台業者直接溝通開會的其實只有中央的刑事警察局可是社群守則會一直變動通報下架的流程規範可能也會改變但是如果只有完整資訊的人只有刑事警察局"},{"start":10131.617,"end":10154.531,"text":"那各縣市的警局啊 派出所有權限 但沒有同步到很可能就不小心 我想他們也不是惡意的但很可能不小心就誤傷了民眾的數位帳號所以這一點 執密我想要跟您這個分享交流既然您代表打沙中心前來練習啦那我們今天的訴求也非常簡單現場也有刑事警察局的代表"},{"start":10155.171,"end":10182.625,"text":"本席在此具體提出三點要求第一 未來的縣市警察局分局以及派出所除了每月將通報下架的資料彙整到中央以外能不能也需要將申訴案件數賦權案件數一併彙整到中央以公開透明為原則定期向外公佈相關數據以立各界瞭解真正的打詐成效不然你全部都打錯了我數字還可以再成長 對吧"},{"start":10183.345,"end":10204.623,"text":"第二點 為使基層警員能夠熟知數位人權的保障事項了解最新的運作規則能不能請刑事警察局跟META進行協調每年至少舉行一次每年一次我知道大家都非常忙每年至少一次通報下架作業原則數位人權相關流程的線上會議那也開放"},{"start":10205.023,"end":10225.073,"text":"各地的警局派出所員警可以來參加這第二點這個主席我爭取一點時間很快第三點刑事警察局與META的定期會議如果有涉及到通報下架的流程相關的作業能不能請刑事警察局將會議記錄的韓文地方警局還有分局還有派出所"},{"start":10225.713,"end":10251.054,"text":"讓所有基層員警隨時可以知道最新的打詐資訊以及防護的做法以上三點要求能不能請打詐中心兩個月內將後續辦理情況以書面答覆本席辦公室可以嗎我想這個打詐不是只有數字也要危害人權我們不能容忍詐騙集團但是我們也不能容忍政府帶頭去侵害到數位人權甚至"},{"start":10251.834,"end":10274.293,"text":"實體的人權請執迷將我們的意見民眾的意見帶回去轉資給督導相關業務的林明星政委跟馬思源執行官我們跟各部會一起努力捍衛數位人權當然也絕對一起打詐 防詐可以嗎謝謝委員好 謝謝好 謝謝葛如燊委員接下來再請賴思邦委員質詢"},{"start":10289.386,"end":10312.414,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請速發部的林部長以及內政部的這個要打造中心的黃執密行政院行政院是執密執密內政部是主任內政部張主任兩位都請一起上來 謝謝代委員好"},{"start":10315.308,"end":10328.167,"text":"幾位長官 我就請教很簡單的問題現在你說小紅書被禁是因為沒有落地那沒有落地的平台多了要不要要同樣標準 統統禁"},{"start":10331.139,"end":10354.76,"text":"是那個因為小紅書之前是內政部就是依照罩房條例第42條然後發文給那個TWNIC請TWNIC做那個DNS RPZ的封組那我們抒發不是那個TWNIC的監管機關但是因為這個決定就是是內政部那個做的那是不是請內政部長講一下"},{"start":10355.561,"end":10380.046,"text":"其他的要不要像Telegram沒有落地要不要請你講班委員就是剛剛有再解釋一下Telegram它是一個通訊的軟體有關委員所提的我們回去會研究就是說當然我們還是依照先後順序因為其實在統計七個合法納管的其實小紅書它大概是第八名我們其實會有這個數據所以這個部分"},{"start":10380.746,"end":10400.831,"text":"它根本這個詐欺的廣告排行榜很低啊你看第二頁裡面來講的話根本就派不上啊這個東西像FB啊 Google什麼的小紅書排在很後面啊這個禁的 完全大家都知道嘛大家這個不用講假話明顯的不要講假話就是意識形態嘛"},{"start":10401.551,"end":10411.338,"text":"就是就是就是賴清德政府要要對抗中共嘛 就這樣子而已啊小紅書的這個受眾 請問現在是不是已經進了"},{"start":10415.43,"end":10442.816,"text":"進了沒有 已經進了沒有目前那個因為內政部發的那個文是要求封鎖一個那個網域就是domainname小紅書.com所以我們的確現在如果是直接要連上這個網站是沒辦法連上但是因為內政部給那個TWNIC的公文並沒有要求那個封鎖那個APP事實上那個也不是TWNIC的職責所以現在在APP事實上還是可以使用的所以現在的也沒有進一樣"},{"start":10445.665,"end":10466.865,"text":"是不是這個意思我所知道的現在是座機座機有進但是手機沒有進手機還是可以看手機如果是網頁的話用網路瀏覽器去直接去聯絡還是會被封鎖對 我知道了但是基本上你有APP就沒有問題是這個意思嗎是這都說假的你要真的講這是假的"},{"start":10468.807,"end":10482.92,"text":"對不對 這個來講的話就是意思一下意思一下這個對內心的交代而已就是要修理修理大陸的還是修理一半也不用翻牆也不用什麼VPN都不用 直接就一樣手機一樣可以看"},{"start":10487.504,"end":10505.611,"text":"對吧 我想講對吧是依照那個造訪條例第42條這個主要是針對那個詐欺網站其實我們都知道真的詐騙的是內容啦不是平台啦你們針對這個平台就是因為數位仲介法要要護火一樣啊所以回答一下是不是這個主要就是主要就是我們都知道詐騙是內容嘛不是平台嘛你封平台什麼意義呢"},{"start":10516.8,"end":10525.445,"text":"跟委員報告豐平台就是什麼全世界感激豐平台的就是共產國家啊社會中介法要復活啊這個樣子啊 人都不是嗎"},{"start":10528.686,"end":10528.866,"text":"這根本"},{"start":10551.514,"end":10563.641,"text":"禁小紅書跟詐欺一點關係都沒有啦跟詐騙一點關係也沒有啦跟意識形態有關係啦跟這個我們的政府有關係啦這個東西是這樣啦來 我再請教這個林部長這個明天就是聖誕節要不要給大家一個禮物啊低軌衛星什麼時候可以上路啊"},{"start":10574.87,"end":10576.953,"text":"OK 低軌衛星號因為你最近開個會要多偉大 多偉大什麼空的 陸的什麼之類最近你是昨天的事情是 沒錯這裡面就提到低軌衛星的事情我們現在低軌衛星號什麼時候可以"},{"start":10591.4,"end":10619.773,"text":"我們目前已經有OneWeb的低軌衛星已經在運作了已經運作一年多了我們目前在跟Amazon Leo他們在談Amazon Leo是預計在明年他會推出我們明年會陸續進行部署我們跟他們目前就是談判相當的協商你昨天的開會的重點這一部分有沒有放了一個很重要的位置有沒有"},{"start":10621.134,"end":10627.577,"text":"很重要的比重就是談低軌衛星因為我們電然現在來講到萬一怎麼樣的話就靠低軌衛星了 難道不是嗎是 當然所以我們非常積極的跟Amazon Leo在談什麼時候我們可以期待說低軌衛星全部的普遍化"},{"start":10640.725,"end":10659.68,"text":"現在不是卡在我們這邊是因為那個Amazon Leo他現在也在陸續在發射衛星他們現在在發射了幾百個他們的目標是總共要發射7300個這個要好幾年那陸續會推出那只要那個美國基本上就是美國那邊上市可以開始使用我們台灣這邊應該也就可以同步開始使用了"},{"start":10660.726,"end":10679.078,"text":"現在這樣子你們社群平台沒有預警的下架網紅的頻道在上一任的黃部長都說這是不應該的現在我們辦公室跟你們反映20天沒有回顧已經反映了20天"},{"start":10681.179,"end":10682.7,"text":"社群平台無預警的下架網紅頻道"},{"start":10704.969,"end":10719.222,"text":"因為這個會發生這個事情的原因是因為現在那個像META它基本上是採用幾個方式第一個是那個他們會設他們的那個社群守則那社群守則是在美國的總部在Washington DC那邊設的"},{"start":10720.243,"end":10745.774,"text":"然後接下來他會找一些人他依照這個社群守則在那個去做人工審查然後接下來他用這個人工審查的結果去訓練他的AI系統然後由AI去做那個下架那這個因為AI系統會有錯誤那一旦發生這個錯誤的時候我們會要求我們已經要求MECA做緊急改善主席站起來你要去處理這個事嗎有有我們已經在處理了謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝關於請回"},{"start":10749.997,"end":10773.222,"text":"好再來請王洪威委員質詢好謝謝主席我請速發部林部長還有行政院我們的王執密以及法務部的張司長法務部張司長麻煩你"},{"start":10778.8,"end":10803.223,"text":"王委員你好我想請問一下就說自從這個太子集團事件發生之後我們認為其實在台灣也變成一個全世界詐騙供應鏈之一真的是覺得有夠丟臉那我想請問你們知不知道最近金融時報有一個紀錄片也是在談詐騙的紀錄片這裡面三度提到台灣"},{"start":10804.318,"end":10808.915,"text":"部長知道嗎抱歉我還沒看過這個影片還沒看過好請問一下我們的執迷看過嗎"},{"start":10811.366,"end":10834.678,"text":"也還沒看過我們請問一下我們的法務部張師長看過嗎都沒有看過你看問題來了我要告訴你們其實趕快回去看這個紀錄片裡面三度提到台灣是詐騙相關的據點這裡面來看下一頁他提到"},{"start":10835.638,"end":10848.451,"text":"台灣有涉及硬體轉印站的一些設備的寄送這個是挪威警方在調查他們自己本身內部他們本來是以為是間諜案後來發現是一個詐騙案說這個設備從台灣寄往文萊測試"},{"start":10855.177,"end":10871.676,"text":"另外也提到詐騙套件的活躍買家與記據點他講到除了中國南方沿海、上海、福建等地台灣也是密集的購買與操作據點另外也提到伺服器的架設所在地"},{"start":10872.436,"end":10894.464,"text":"這是聯合國的毒品和犯罪問題辦公室指出顯示很多線上詐欺的伺服器高度流動性都可能設在台灣然後提到台灣是網路基礎建設的中繼站為什麼要提到金融時報"},{"start":10895.524,"end":10906.032,"text":"事實上早在今年初今年初我也曾經在質詢質詢提到就是聯合國的毒品"},{"start":10907.452,"end":10925.368,"text":"和犯罪問題辦公室當時他們就提出報告當時我也問了法務部長當時法務部長說他也不知道聯合國的報告後來調查局竟然還對外說這個調查報告是偏頗的 可信度低"},{"start":10926.549,"end":10953.088,"text":"結果沒有幾個月大概三個月不到吧就發生了太子集團事件就發生太子集團事件有夠丟臉的聯合國的報告在今年4月的時候提到台灣裡面非常的仔細結果我們法務部沒有看到沒有看到我們經過質詢後來調查局竟然說這個報告的可信度很低"},{"start":10954.489,"end":10971.528,"text":"結果太子集團事件就發生了所以現在金融時報的詐騙紀錄片又三度提到了台灣我希望你們趕快去了解不要讓所謂的世界看到台灣看到台灣的詐騙有夠丟臉另外請教一下法務部"},{"start":10973.589,"end":10992.414,"text":"這個我們都知道在東南亞 特別是柬埔寨有詐騙園區那麼今年 就最近喔最近我們的台灣日本關係協會的副秘書長林玉慧特別提到了台灣人現在對東南亞的詐騙提高警覺"},{"start":10993.234,"end":11010.947,"text":"但是他說日本最近的案件也在直線上升他說甚至台灣人在日本涉及詐騙案件的人數比去年還暴增了十倍之多那我想請問一下這個部分我們法務部有了解嗎"},{"start":11012.996,"end":11032.343,"text":"跟委員報告那相關的訊息本部的所屬機關都會有所掌握那也會去進一步的了解那防免相關的這個犯罪情勢的發生所以看起來你們又在狀況外這個是我們台灣日本關係協會的副秘書長他所提出來的警訊"},{"start":11033.223,"end":11055.22,"text":"他說因為現在對東南亞我們國人有警覺但是他也提醒日本的部分詐騙也越來越多所以他希望我們也要有一些警覺所以請拜託我們不希望再有這種詐騙園區然後我們國人不知道而上當另外我要特別講一下"},{"start":11056.121,"end":11077.399,"text":"就是其實偉茂這個帳號我們過去在臉書包含我個人還有我們這個立法院內很多的委員通通都有被這個假帳號還有很多的名人最近非常多的我得到很多的回報是偉茂像我自己本身"},{"start":11077.839,"end":11095.538,"text":"就在LINE上面被偽冒帳號那很多的民眾搞不清楚以為在跟我對話我最近我的這個辦公就是我們地方的主任還來問我說他說委員你下午有沒有跟哪一個人這樣子什麼一共交談了半個多小時我說什麼交談半個多小時"},{"start":11097.64,"end":11120.609,"text":"因為那個是我們的支持者他看到之後他好高興喔他說今天我跟你們委員在這個LINE就講了半個多小時他想說怎麼可能委員怎麼會跟你講半個多小時果然是假帳號我們立刻去報案那最近又來了因為現在AI連語音影像都可以那變成呢"},{"start":11122.189,"end":11140.664,"text":"語音通話 我跟他語音通話他覺得這聲音就是我的所以這個部分我們有沒有什麼其實我們抒發部跟LINE都有些合作就是保護一些公眾人物那委員您當然是公眾人物那請趕快跟我們聯絡我們會去找那個LINE我已經報案了"},{"start":11141.745,"end":11162.791,"text":"除了那個報案那是內政部警政系統那我們訴發部這邊的話就是包含就是委員您的那個圖像他們用AI的方式去檢查如果說有人看起來是用委員您的名字又用您的那個影像去開帳號的話他們會有一些方式去攔阻的好那這樣子其實我相信絕對不會是只有我一個人"},{"start":11163.671,"end":11192.234,"text":"絕對不會只有我一個人那當然現在因為通常我們的做法一定是先去跟警方報案所以如果書發部也有什麼窗口嗎那如果有人也類似像這種不管是帳號或者是有假冒AI的語音通話這個你們也有有 我們都有我們馬上跟委員的辦公室聯絡沒有 我希望你們能夠公開你懂我意思嗎不是只有我因為這個是針對公眾人物因為那個"},{"start":11193.275,"end":11211.029,"text":"這個是一定是從公眾人物那你們趕快告訴因為公眾人物太多了太多絕對不是只有只有這個政治人物太多的公眾人物都非常有可能你們要趕快讓大家知道不除了你報警之外也要跟我們庶發部來做聯絡好不好好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝王宏威委員"},{"start":11216.96,"end":11245.491,"text":"大家不要誤信這個莫名的LINE的訊息 沒有錯好 謝謝來 再來請廖先祥委員質詢謝謝主席 那麻煩邀請我們速發部林部長 林部長請寶藏指揮中心王執密 王執密請 還有內政部這個詐欺長官 張主任"},{"start":11247.49,"end":11271.395,"text":"來 張主任請廖偉文你好大家午安喔 抱歉喔我想說剛剛原本想說要不要直接消失一下大家就下課了開玩笑那這個跟大家請教一下這兩三個禮拜很多國際的新聞就是東南亞的新聞就可能泰國 緬甸或柬埔寨一下是自己的軍隊去打這個KK園區一下是這個F16去轟炸園區對不對我想確認一下"},{"start":11274.816,"end":11303.025,"text":"那最近的相關的詐騙的一些各項統計數據有沒有因此變少包括你們網域的封鎖就是一些詐騙的網址或者是實際上有報案的案件是不曉得各單位依照我們速發部我們速發部這邊主要是針對網路上的一些那個偽冒訊息的防堵依照我們的統計那個事實上過去這一年多來都穩定在下降跟一年多比起來最近炸完之後有沒有再更明顯的下降"},{"start":11304.145,"end":11316.45,"text":"這個詐玩以後可能我不知道有沒有最新的一部分是您的網域的嘛與網域的封鎖的提報譬如我們之前那個APP啊不是也都有民眾在上傳一些詐騙網站的可疑網址嗎這些數量有沒有因此而減少"},{"start":11318.962,"end":11343.879,"text":"這個數量 坦白講就是說增加跟減少不一定就代表詐騙的數量減少因為我們一直在推廣網站通報查詢網我們希望更多人使用 更多人詐近期發生這麼多事件有沒有因此減少我個人的感覺好像是有減少但是我那個就是實際統計可能手上沒有資料好 那沒關係 那其他單位還是要補充 你要幫書發部補充"},{"start":11349.666,"end":11359.198,"text":"我們這邊的話是有那個針對那個網址的這個停職解析的部分那今年到目前為止的11月底的話是有停職解析的4萬5千件的這個網址"},{"start":11361.923,"end":11385.12,"text":"好 沒關係 我是想說了解最近這個詐騙園區這源頭啦 現在了解一下大家都以為在東南亞那實際上詐完之後有沒有減少我覺得這個要先釐清一下非常謝謝委員這個部分其實我們也一直在思考到底哪一個策略奏效那實際上跟委員報告其實事實上詐欺的數據不管是在發生受理報案書跟財損其實從今年的6月很明顯的逐步的下降"},{"start":11385.68,"end":11414.269,"text":"那尤其他下架的最高峰大概就是在我們是希望持續會再下下去那11月像我們每天關注大概就1萬2萬如果看到3萬我們就好緊張那實際上就像委員您所指示的就是說最近減碳這個打仗的問題他大概也是最近大概這一個月到半個月之間但是實際上我們在看其實12月有點怕怕的因為12月感覺上好像有一點點有時候到3萬"},{"start":11415.569,"end":11431.437,"text":"然後就是感覺上每天看那個數據不如11月來的安心所以實際上就是委員你所講說這個他們戰爭這個部分到底是不是有影響其實我們目前還在觀察當中還沒有很明確的指標好 那我們這個"},{"start":11433.098,"end":11453.714,"text":"達拉中心呢有要補充了嗎還是你手上沒有數據跟委員報告就是其實詐欺在醫學上其實它是一種慢性病它不會因為一種藥方就會好了這樣其實就是其他就是它就漸漸好是因為它有任何的相關措施作為然後以那個最近東南亞的部分因為其實整個詐騙雖然"},{"start":11454.991,"end":11469.071,"text":"很多大宗司放在柬埔寨可是柬埔寨也很大然後現在被打擊的是跟泰國交界的部分所以說它是占其中的一部分當然我們是希望因為那邊打仗剩下的人會怕然後趕快跑這樣來減少這個數字"},{"start":11471.114,"end":11485.868,"text":"不過假如以詐欺而言你假如是機房被抄的話他不會立即下降他會先升再降原因是為什麼因為他可能詐騙是長期的在騙你一個月兩個月突然他被炸掉他就我怎麼"},{"start":11486.488,"end":11510.521,"text":"很多人就本來有在定期聯繫的總算沒有聯繫的我擔心一下發生什麼事趕快去報案我就覺得我們可以利用這個指標來確認一下因為我們過去都說這個犯罪的中心或者他們一個集團化都是在東南亞這些緬甸或者是柬埔寨那實際上如果說發生戰爭或者一些軍事的行動在攻擊的話那一定是會影響到他們的一個作業如果說"},{"start":11511.582,"end":11533.15,"text":"照常理來判斷有供給的話那相關的後續可能或許會有這個延遲性的一個時間但是一定會對數量或是相關的一些訊息的散布一定會有影響如果沒有影響的話就代表說我們過去的一些判斷那是不是會有一些失準我們以為我們的大宗的詐騙來源都是來自那一邊但實際上被炒完了之後如果說沒有變的話"},{"start":11534.59,"end":11558.926,"text":"那怎麼會這樣 一定是我們當初的判斷可能有一些問題後續可以以這個指標來做一下我們一些源頭的部分的一些釐清跟我們怎麼來做防範以上那另外要再請教一下我們蘇發部長 林部長剛剛有特別提到這個小紅書有提到說現在TWNIC有封鎖網域那APP的部分沒有嗎"},{"start":11559.226,"end":11576.437,"text":"我想確認一下APP的部分沒有就我今天也先不跟你們討論說這個意識形態還怎麼樣啦這個我指控你們也不會你們也不會承認嘛我們就是討論客觀的事我們現在封小紅書的話網域封鎖那APP沒有進是因為進不了還是沒有去執行"},{"start":11578.352,"end":11599.511,"text":"第一個就是因為我們疏發部是那個事實上並不是那個決策機關那因為這件事情是對不起那個內政部依照炸防條例第42條然後發文給TWNIC請TWNIC用那個DNSRPC那就你的專業如果說要進APP的話做得到嗎"},{"start":11600.8,"end":11613.879,"text":"坦白講因為Internet的特性就是說完全禁止那個封組是很難的即使在中國中國他有網路長程但是中國人也是會利用但至少形式上制度上面的一個封做得到嗎"},{"start":11615.335,"end":11630.106,"text":"制度上的封因為技術上還是制度上技術上現在就是一個普遍的譬如說你說TWIC你禁但是我是還是可以用跳板那個是另外的一個手段嘛對不對當然當然我們不做另外的手段的正常操作使用下面禁的禁的了嗎"},{"start":11631.076,"end":11653.391,"text":"跟委員補充說明喔因為APP的方式的話它其實是一個以多網域多服務的架構所以它一個APP可能會連到好幾個網域另外一個的話就是說它的多服務架構它可能有一些有一些服務是更寄生在這個CDN裡面喔所以這個的話就變成說你很難如果你要全封的話你可能不能精準打擊"},{"start":11654.312,"end":11680.234,"text":"所以這個在技術上有它的一個限制就是說你擋一個網域的話可能APP還是可以work那但是你全部擋掉的話你可能會變成會傷及無殺那我再確認一下內政部有辦法或者是打到指揮中心有辦法說明一下為什麼當初只有發給TWN IC而沒有針對APP的部分去執行是做不到技術上面還是說我們沒有要做這樣子"},{"start":11680.814,"end":11709.773,"text":"因為在造房條例的第42條部分只有情資解析意圖他沒有辦法請App Store或者Google Play也把那個就禁止下架所以說這段時間大家可能以為是不是民意的反彈讓我們的政府是不是意識到我們民意就是採納民意的方式不要去禁小紅書但實際上我們政府沒有辦法把小紅書的APP禁掉並不是因為我們你們"},{"start":11711.237,"end":11713.694,"text":"政府不想進而是技術上做不到是這樣子是不是"},{"start":11716.731,"end":11743.363,"text":"就是技術上是有困境所以是技術上做不到所以說之前院長說什麼一年的一個時間對不對那一年的時間到了之後你們應該是做不到所以是一個虛張真實我們是希望藉由這次來再跟小紅書請他再要提供相關的聯繫管道至少再停止再下架跟那就是院長講的這一年假設院長講的這一年的時間到了那他們一樣沒有落地的話那能有什麼作為"},{"start":11747.057,"end":11772.286,"text":"現行的機制好像辦不到嘛對不對好不好那我當然啦我個人是當然是非常不贊成這個封小紅書的這一項決策啦畢竟你知道我們要跟你爭你的認同但是你也知道我們普遍社會上面大家的一個認知都是認為說就是一個意識形態的一個操作啦那也希望說當然你們都是專業的幕僚單位啦那也希望說你們未來都能夠站在"},{"start":11773.346,"end":11795.319,"text":"民眾的立場來提供一些這個中央政府的一些決策的一些建議那未來如果說這個小紅書的問題這個看起來好像就是這樣啦你未來不可能再多進了嗎好對我只要確認一下這件事情而已所以說大部分的使用者應該是可以放心啦我應該可以這樣子理解啦以上好謝謝所以我也知道"},{"start":11797.833,"end":11817.458,"text":"好 謝謝廖線上委員來 官員請回不過剛剛官員答詢裡面其中來 官員請回其中有提到就是我們12月份的詐騙金額本席剛剛一天一天的去把它給加總起來截至內政部打在儀表板的數據到12月22號12月已經被詐騙了49.29億元"},{"start":11824.74,"end":11831.747,"text":"49.29億元10月是60億被詐騙11月是59.9億被詐騙截至到12月22號12月已經被詐了49.29億元還有9天的時間12月才會過完換言之現在看起來會突破12月被詐騙的金額會突破10月跟11月這是客觀的事實"},{"start":11849.082,"end":11875.107,"text":"所以詐騙還是嚴峻我想用客觀的數據講出來還是希望我們所有出席的行政官員們都要謹記打詐這條路真的我們永遠不可能鬆懈也永遠不能鬆懈好 再來請張雅玲委員發言張雅玲 張雅玲委員不在鍾嘉斌委員發言鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請徐富奎委員發言"},{"start":11885.3,"end":11887.376,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們林部長來 林部長請"},{"start":11893.209,"end":11918.86,"text":"學委員午安部長午安部長我想數位部在近年對於這個數位治理的這個制度建構我想我們給予高度的肯定謝謝那所以今天在這個報告當然是有提到這個社群平台防詐這個議題但我想我們最近推動這個SEMI的E187這個半導體的一個設備治安的認證的一個制度我想這個呈現一個很重要的一個核心的一個精神"},{"start":11919.6,"end":11941.901,"text":"那未來我們不是要求一個口號式的一個資安的一個宣示而是應該把高度複雜的一個供應鏈的風險轉化成一個有標準有驗證有責任歸屬的一個制度設計讓我們所有的業者應該知道做到哪裡才算合格那我想這個東西也是攸關到我們政府治理要求的一個"},{"start":11942.821,"end":11965.669,"text":"具體可落實跟可被驗證的一個目標那我想數位部在這個防詐政策上面當然我們要從法律面科技面還有商業面的面向來處理我想部長針對這樣的一個治理計畫未來有沒有可能去做一個複製然後把這樣的一個可擴散的一個政策方式能夠往回推動到我們各個不一樣的面向"},{"start":11966.129,"end":11992.45,"text":"是 跟委員報告首先要感謝委員的支持那的確Semi-1187這件事情對我們來講意義非常大不但能保護我們台灣產業鏈尤其是這個IC產業鏈的資安而且它能帶來很大的商機所以我們當然是希望能複製這種方式在別的領域製造類似的狀況這個是就是那個Win Win Win大家都是獲利了"},{"start":11993.05,"end":12013.925,"text":"在這個CMI187有一個很特別的地方就是在於說它本身是一個很大的商業利益因為現在世界各國都會要求我們的台灣台積電為首的半導體產業去他們那邊設廠是他們來求我們等於說他們來拜託我們那我們就要求他們說你如果想要加入台積電的供應鏈的話你必須通過這個標準"},{"start":12015.206,"end":12037.826,"text":"然後再通過這個標準的話我們這個台積電才可以相信說它跟你合作使用你的機台設備不會有木馬藏在你的機台設備裡面是 所以這個是很好的但是要馬上再複製那個我們可能還要再努力一下因為在其他領域我們並沒有像一個台積電這麼大的一家公司作為我們等於說商業上的一個後盾"},{"start":12038.641,"end":12066.935,"text":"不過部長當然台積電是我們的護國神山但是我覺得未來在我們整個這個科技發展的領域裡面我想我們也期待更多的這個台積電的護國神山出現所以我想未來怎麼樣針對這樣一個制度治理的核心原則針對我們未來包含AI也好 聲威也好甚至治安的一個政策上面這些屬於高風險的一個數位議題的部分能不能來做一個比較全方位的一個推動的處理的一個模式"},{"start":12067.785,"end":12087.461,"text":"是 我们会朝这个方向发展那我们就希望说第一个我们要制定各种规范然后另外一个这件事情很大的意义在于说善用民间的力量因为我们知道那个Semi-187这个标准会带来三种商机第一个是说认证本身就是一种生意再来就是说辅导"},{"start":12088.281,"end":12116.94,"text":"廠商通過認證又是一種生意再來是說提供資安的軟硬體設備去通過驗證又是一種生意所以台灣的資安產業對於這個CMI187非常的期待那同樣我們在打炸的作為上面我們也希望說我們讓這個打炸這個本身就變成一種生意就是你打炸還可以賺到錢那當然除了說服務政府以外還有服務民眾這個我們都希望說形成一個健康的產業生態系"},{"start":12118.662,"end":12122.865,"text":"我想回歸到今天的我們的專題報告那當然我想我們在"},{"start":12124.028,"end":12151.767,"text":"各部會的努力之下當然我們期待這個社群平台打詐的一個成效能夠持續的努力讓我們的鄉親不被受到影響但是我們現在從數據上來看這個光是高風險的金融投資詐騙廣告從113年單週最高高達7萬7千多件到114年11月當然平均已經降到了不到3千件但是我看到其實這個"},{"start":12152.628,"end":12172.308,"text":"Meta他們也努力在台灣移除了高達780萬則的一個詐騙廣告是我跟你講這個整個從官方也好從這個商業面也好我想我們應該是做這樣的一個最大的努力但是因為現在我們看到從網路詐騙的一個通報查詢網也累積通報了超過50萬則的可疑的一個訊息"},{"start":12173.376,"end":12201.326,"text":"那這些數字都可以證明當然我們政府介入之後平台已經動起來但是目前這樣的成效到底是屬於一個專案型的或是一個行政的一個推動成效還是被納入了一個只是一個可追蹤或者是一個比較型的一個指標我想我們不是看到一個數字的這個下降我們應該是期待說我們未來怎麼樣去隨時檢討修正我們一個未來一個治理的一個方向部長有沒有做一個這樣的一個檢討規劃"},{"start":12202.486,"end":12228.772,"text":"是 首先我們在應該這樣講我們現在抒發部在打詐我們是從三個方面著手第一個是法律面再來是科技面然後再來是商業面在法律面上面我們非常感謝立法院在去年通過了詐房條例那詐房條例通過以後我們就可以要求這些網路平台他第一個要做到廣告實名制然後再來是我們通知他有些詐騙訊息他必須在24小時之內下架"},{"start":12229.412,"end":12250.61,"text":"在科技面的话我们就是利用网站通报查询网以及DNSRPG等等技术我们就是利用民间的力量由民间来通报我们也用AI的方式来通报来巡查找到所有可疑的讯息然后用自动分案让当事人譬如说仿冒谢金河的讯息就找谢金河来确认等等"},{"start":12251.431,"end":12270.349,"text":"然后再来就是商业面商业面的话我们就是去跟这些大型平台去跟他们劝说说你们不能做一个旁观者你们必须加入我们打炸的行列这在商业上对你们的商业商誉是有帮助的你们商誉好的话你们才有更长久的生意所以这个是我们的整体的策略以上报告"},{"start":12271.629,"end":12295.099,"text":"老實講這個詐騙手法日新月異沒錯上有政策 下有對策所以我們現行的這個治理工具到底能不能去適應每一樣的一個狀況你們推出一個政策還沒有實施之前人家就已經玩新的花樣了是 沒錯尤其我們在政科我們很多的長輩也好 年輕人也好真的很容易受到這些網路的一個詐騙的行為"},{"start":12296.38,"end":12320.692,"text":"那所以我想尤其現在我們看到包含透過這個假贈品假合作釣魚連結甚至投資的一些管道讓我們的民眾一步步掉入陷阱我想我們也是期待這樣的一個公開廣告型的一個詐騙的處理手段我想我們應該要加強一個質疑的力道那針對這樣廣告型跟私訊型的詐騙我想我們有掌握相關的資訊嗎"},{"start":12323.374,"end":12348.711,"text":"首先就是說委員講的完全沒錯因為打詐我常常講就是好人跟壞人之間不斷的攻防我們好人我們政府一直把各種詐騙管道給堵住了但是這個詐騙集團會變招他會找新的詐騙的方式他一直在變所以我們一定要加快我們的反應速度另外一個委員剛剛也提到就是說應該是通訊像說LINE這樣的通訊軟體在LINE的這個通訊軟體因為我們沒辦法"},{"start":12352.413,"end":12373.744,"text":"沒辦法去看個人通訊的內容因為我們是自由民主法治的國家但是我們會要求就是說一旦民眾開始報案我們會要求LINE盡快讓我們可以找到對方的帳號到底是誰之前在一年多以前我們去內政部警政署去要求去跟LINE調資料"},{"start":12375.205,"end":12399.461,"text":"平均要八個禮拜那現在我們已經縮短到三天那我們的期待是說以後呢縮短到一天以下這樣我們可以很快的把壞人抓到部長這個很重要啦是不能因為這樣子用三天的時間這三天不知道還要六天對啊對啊這個沒錯那我們也看到這個馬來西亞有跟進澳洲這個社群禁令研議把平臺導入身份驗證我們有沒有可能研究這個方案"},{"start":12399.961,"end":12427.43,"text":"我們現在有在跟那個平台正在討論就是我們現在蘇發布有一個數位憑證皮夾有個數位憑證皮夾的技術那事實上我們可以利用這種方式來那個驗證使用者的身分那這當然就是說因為我們台灣這個是一個非常自由民主的國家那可能我們首先就是要凝聚那個大家的共識如果說大家有共識認為說可以做實名制或類實名制的話"},{"start":12427.99,"end":12453.962,"text":"或者是在某一做某些行為的時候必須有那個實名制譬如說我購買一些比較危險的物品或者是這個我們會利用數位憑證提交的機制來設法來驗證使用者的身份我想就最近這個北捷這個事情我想能夠做這樣怎麼樣嚴密的一個針對一個實名登記登錄的部分能夠做一個查證那我想這個打仗跟這個防堵這個暴力行為絕對不是只有公務部門"},{"start":12454.462,"end":12469.814,"text":"是沒錯 平台業者也要有責任是 不能只賺幾年了我們應該要有這個蘿蔔跟棍子的這個力道一起去處理這件事情 是好不好 我們會嚴格要求非常謝謝委員的指導 謝謝好 謝謝學富魁委員來 官員請回"},{"start":12471.909,"end":12500.516,"text":"接下來請沈博洋 沈博洋 沈博洋委員 指詢沈博洋委員不在王美惠 王美惠 王美惠委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在林德福 林德福 林德福委員不在鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在陳冠廷 陳冠廷 陳冠廷委員不在邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在林月琴 林月琴 林月琴委員不在"},{"start":12500.996,"end":12517.598,"text":"徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員不在劉浩 劉浩 劉浩委員不在林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在"},{"start":12519.909,"end":12540.312,"text":"登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員尤浩 林俊憲 林德福徐欣盈 林楚英 王美惠委員所提書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分"},{"start":12541.209,"end":12556.205,"text":"請數位發展部及相關機關競速以書面答覆今天是聖誕夜 夜誕夜 平安夜祝福全國國人以及我們交通委員會所有的同仁大家都平安健康本日會議結束 散會"}]}},{"id":"166670","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166670","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d603c897452bd3e821d8f4e93bf07b6087f1e7720c7178afcf3741bf18dc6c7e1075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"13:42:19 - 13:49:19","影片長度":"00:07:00","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T13:42:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T13:49:19+08:00","duration":420,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.24534375,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.957843750000002,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.93659375,"end":10.712843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.52221875,"end":20.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.137843750000002,"end":19.184093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.559093750000002,"end":27.722843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.668468750000002,"end":25.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.043468750000002,"end":40.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.17721875,"end":36.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.37534375,"end":37.814093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.307218750000004,"end":71.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.31909375000001,"end":74.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.37784375000001,"end":90.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.03784375000001,"end":162.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.29659375,"end":174.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.95721875,"end":184.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.93034375000002,"end":186.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.97221875000002,"end":189.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.43159375000002,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.97034375,"end":199.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.37534375,"end":199.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.51034375,"end":208.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.43409375000002,"end":201.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.92659375000002,"end":213.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.96034375000002,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.15346875,"end":240.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.69096875000002,"end":231.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.91034375,"end":231.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.88471875000002,"end":234.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.05659375000002,"end":243.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.02221875,"end":264.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.28659375,"end":254.45534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.09096875,"end":274.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.77284375,"end":276.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.57846875,"end":276.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.61221875,"end":278.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.32909375,"end":287.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.44596875,"end":291.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.91409375,"end":291.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.85034375000004,"end":291.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.90096875,"end":292.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.71096875,"end":293.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.79534375000003,"end":296.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.75284375,"end":305.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.46846875,"end":324.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.48534375,"end":306.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.20659375,"end":307.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.29659375,"end":326.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.56221875,"end":332.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.79409375,"end":328.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.64596875,"end":330.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.21534375000005,"end":342.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.67784375,"end":345.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.78284375000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有請我們農業部陳部長好 請部長不過也可以拿來備薰苔或是薰苔也可以"},{"start":22.588,"end":40.554,"text":"沒有 時間扣掉了我只是拉勒而已我只有四分鐘好 部長今天討論這個老容津貼大家都非常清楚當初老容津貼的基本的額度是從三千到十千到五千到六千到七千經過適時的調整到了七千元"},{"start":41.394,"end":70.977,"text":"但事實上之前最早都是在額度上的調整設定了7000以後又加了兩道門鎖一個就是所謂的調升四年的調升條款另外一個就是所謂的排付條款以至於現在要處理老農經貼的時候就要用三道門檻我們共同來面對為什麼會這樣子因為歷經了14年就是從7000的當年馬英九時代的7000到現在你看歷經了14年我們調了多少"},{"start":71.957,"end":90.564,"text":"除了1101啊14年哦1101所以當初7000卡了這兩道門檻一個公式的機制換算一個排戶的門檻的一個設定這兩個就是代表什麼代表民生暗降啊"},{"start":91.184,"end":111.813,"text":"它根本在限制你老農津貼的這種發放的機制看起來好像對農民好其實對農民真的很不好為什麼會有到這麼多的立委會紛紛提案就是它有很大的檢討的空間嘛14年的這個排富條款的時候我在上一屆的立委的時候我就已經提出來了"},{"start":112.273,"end":136.294,"text":"那時候我們就跟八大的社福指標掛鉤在一起我說那是沒道理的事情第二個我本席也提出所謂的機制的調整這個CPI的部分從年份的部分調整我當然贊同從CPI的部分的調整你也應該參考高齡的這個CPI高齡的CPI跟CPI不一樣那主席處已經定義出來了那個對老農來說是相對而言是有幫助的"},{"start":136.934,"end":156.64,"text":"所以與時俱進的一種公式調整方式是第一個我們要去面對的問題第二個 排付條款的鬆綁更是我們要去處理的問題有些房屋是老農自住我看數字給你聽你剛剛講說經過一段時間之後這一個徵服美工請的公告定價徵服已經高達64.98步"},{"start":163.382,"end":187.511,"text":"到2024的時候呢增幅已經高達77%了所以制定的這個額外的所得50萬還是14年前的我是跟你講我們雖然農業部做了很多啊但是呢被罵了也不少我覺得農民今天就是被罵的源頭所以我是希望部長啊趁這個時候是不是能夠將門檻的問題面對"},{"start":191.349,"end":212.73,"text":"把這個公式機制的面對把這個排富條款的問題來面對部長三大關鍵一起處理有沒有可能部長我們現在就是朝這個方向排富的部分就成如委員剛才講的我們在從100年開始都沒有處理過包括所得的部分所以他累積了大概將近應該是"},{"start":215.482,"end":242.538,"text":"應該是多少那個16%左右CPI 16%所以所得的部分我們會一次到位我們希望說一次到位把它調到跟CPI的帳戶然後財產的部分土地公告限值從100年到現在已經增加了64.87%的那我們也希望一次到位把它調起來然後包括自用住宅的部分然後我另外特別想要提的就是說我一直認為農民很辛苦的賺錢"},{"start":245.36,"end":263.847,"text":"買一個房子他不會去賣的部分我們也考慮很多自住的部分要怎麼處理這個我想我們在院的時候都有一些規劃跟報告所以這個部分等院版通過院會以後到時候我會再跟委員做一個說明"},{"start":264.147,"end":278.539,"text":"那整個調高金額的這個整個參數當中你要不要考慮一下把CPI的這個參數裡頭做一個調整把它弄成一個高點CPI的可能性對老農會比較有幫助一點點我想這個部分在當下現在比較困難因為"},{"start":279.42,"end":306.885,"text":"因為我們其他的八大社福基金都是65歲以上的如果說純粹只是老農津貼本身去用採用高齡的CPI的話那你就問一下主基礎為什麼要用一個高齡的CPI啊你也可以率先先調啊讓他其他一起調啊是其他沒有調是其他落後不是你不是你進步啊我們希望行政院能夠能夠讓我們農民津貼可以先走那我們額度也是做一些調整然後CPI我也做了調整額度先走嘛"},{"start":307.205,"end":323.785,"text":"但是參數的部分也可以做調整你一併送啦不要以後再來調啦也許改天人家八大社府已經調了你才一定要跟人家後面為什麼一定要跟著後面走我就說你現在的送案子你就這樣送那差不太多啦那是一個生意啦"},{"start":325.327,"end":344.354,"text":"部長你回去研究一下啦我們可以來研究啦因為我想我們會再跟行政院這邊了解一下其他的八大社福基金現在的情況是啊調整一下啦台北社福基金基本上門檻都太高而且金額太少了啦基本上要與時俱進那調高額度的部分你們有考慮嗎有額度的部分我們也認為現在的"},{"start":345.954,"end":366.09,"text":"那個基礎從最後一次調整的7000塊所以你看嘛調了那麼多次才100多塊而已因為它只有處理CPI沒有處理基線所以基線我們覺得它太低了應該做適度的提高但是提高的過程中我們會精算我們的財富的一個負擔所以我說這是民生安降啊"},{"start":367.09,"end":388.895,"text":"當然高明的手法所以這個三個都要一起面對最後我還是要提醒你一點前天我們在討論的時候有關於這一個青農覆蓋率的部分除菁的部分老師講那個勞保局我去問過覆蓋率真的就不到30你也不要把以前灌進來啦我們就老實的面對這制度裡頭覆蓋率不足的問題啦才能真正設計好一個制度出來好不好"},{"start":389.975,"end":413.7,"text":"你吃蟹有農保三十萬沒錯可是要扣掉資格有疑慮的大概有八九萬人他不可能來參加的啦所以實際才要二十二萬人用實際數啊實際上他就有投農報啊因為參加的八萬人他不可能來投因為他資格可能有問題他不敢現身啦主席站起來我不要站太久他會生啦先到這邊我們改天還有機會再討論謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":418.942,"end":420.564,"text":"接下來請陳毅委員來作詢"}]}},{"id":"17152","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17152","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc6f793b294c435070d3331cd6756a1fe43fa04411479d882a1f10923da24beb605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員李昆澤等19人擬具「交通部航港局組織法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員李昆澤等19人擬具「交通部高速公路局組織法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員李昆澤等18人擬具「交通部公路局組織法第七條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-24T08:33:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T11:16:00+08:00","duration":9730,"影片長度":"02:42:10","委員發言時間":"08:33:50 - 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各位委員今天應邀列席貴委員會就李昆澤委員等19位委員你據的這個交通部航港局紙之法第6條條文修正草案交通部高速公路局組織法"},{"start":1805.288,"end":1824.374,"text":"第七條修正草案及李坤澤等18位委員女巨的交通部公路局組織法第七條條文修正草案來提出本部的處理意見來供各委員參考首先就委員提案的部分李委員等就本部三個"},{"start":1826.735,"end":1847.565,"text":"三個局現行的組織法有關限制交通自衛制人員自限期屆滿日也就是航港局大概是111年的9月15號高速公路局是111年3月69日起留任原續訂的自衛同序列或交易序列的職務至離職為止"},{"start":1851.307,"end":1875.469,"text":"此這樣的一個規定不得升遷的一個規定除影響了相關人員的權益以外也影響了機關的彈性用人用人的一個機制不利於機關組織的一個運作所以刪除相關限制升遷的規定明定這些人員能夠繼續適用原法令的一個規定"},{"start":1877.551,"end":1895.593,"text":"或所屬機關的其他職務這樣的一個修法的一個方向本部深恩表敬佩並表達謝意而且樂見其成我們說明如下也就是本部的處理意見第一個是剛才提案委員李委員大概"},{"start":1896.453,"end":1915.562,"text":"也说明过了本来这几个机关里面有关不管是滋味人员或是派用人员他们是有一致的一个相关的规范也就是在一定的期限内他是不得调任其他机关的但是这样的一个规定尤其是派用人员的留任的规定"},{"start":1916.202,"end":1942.59,"text":"在114年8月1號經總統公佈修正放寬派用人員與派用時能夠適用現行的一個派用的調任規定也就是予以鬆綁我們考量這樣的一個有關自衛人員他其實是經過國家考試及及格後分發至交通事業機構派用人員是依照主要的一個學歷跟工作的經驗來任用的一個方式"},{"start":1944.151,"end":1965.664,"text":"雖然有所不同但是前者卻受到一個調任的限制我們覺得會影響自衛人員的一個相關的一個生涯的一個規劃跟相關的一個權益所以這一次修法能夠兼顧本部所屬這個現行的交通自衛制的人員也就是目前在公路局"},{"start":1966.324,"end":1991.632,"text":"有416人在高工局有17人航港局有108人總共有581人整體上還有官務人員的8人這些人的權益能夠跟派用人員權益橫平而且能夠強化人才的調任跟培訓所以我們很樂見這樣的修法能夠儘速完成立法程序以提升本部相關施政的效能"},{"start":1992.092,"end":2013.614,"text":"最後還是再次的謝謝李昆澤等9位委員的提案並請各位委員能夠支持 儘速完成立法程序來解除有關限制不得升遷的一個規定以上 謝謝好 謝謝城市長的機關說明那基於提出書面報告的機關有沒有口頭的補充"},{"start":2015.031,"end":2041.778,"text":"沒有補充報告的話我們機關代表就報告完畢相關的書面內容請各位參考並列入公報記錄提案說明跟機關報告已進行完畢我們現在開始來進行詢答今天本日因為跟司法法制跟交通委員會聯席今天我看親民的來詢答的委員也"},{"start":2042.518,"end":2069.804,"text":"人數也非常多那我們兩個委員會聯席尋答人數比較多那我們對討論條文的時候還是有很多機會來充分的表達意見所以我們今天尋答的時間本委員會就5分鐘非本聯席委員會3分鐘我們均不再做延長那上午10點30分我們截止發言登記現在我們請登記第一位黃國昌委員來做尋答"},{"start":2076.189,"end":2103.511,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩有請交通部的政事還有權序部的代表請交通部還有我們權序部兩位好我在這邊我要先公開的肯定權序部為什麼公開肯定權序部兩件事情"},{"start":2104.622,"end":2131.999,"text":"依法行政說到做到什麼意思立法院三讀通過警察人員人事條例為了要照顧我們辛苦的警校他們退休以後的所得替代率有著以提升我之前請教權序部說這個法律三讀生效了"},{"start":2133.161,"end":2158.511,"text":"全序部給退休的景銷有關於退休金的審定函是依照新法做還是依照舊法做你們說因為電腦系統有轉換你們會按照新法做而且在年底以前會做完這個是在司法法治委員會大概兩三次詢答的內容我得到全序部的回覆"},{"start":2159.754,"end":2182.131,"text":"這件事情我既然開始追蹤要捍衛我們警消的權利還有國會立法的尊嚴我就一定會追下去最近我從警察同仁那邊我拿到了選區部發的新的審定函這個新的審定函請選區部的代表看一下"},{"start":2184.059,"end":2202.299,"text":"在螢幕上面通通都有右手邊當然各自的部分我一定要把人家塗掉114年12月16號也就是在年底以前他們說新的審定函會發給全國的警校第一個問題這個新的審定函現在發完了嗎"},{"start":2205.615,"end":2229.858,"text":"報告委員部分的比較特殊性質的部分的話我們是需要用人工來計算所以有些大概2000多個人是需要人工計算你們現在已經發出去的含有幾份這個部分數字的部分要回去再詳查那會後可以提供給你們會後提供好不好總共發出去的幾份有多少人收到你們現在有一個大致的數字嗎"},{"start":2232.426,"end":2260.404,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個數字的部分的話因為可能要你們發出去有一萬人嗎應該就是我所知道的是大概有幾千人是要人工計算的那其他的已經發出去的就像我現在貼在上面的審定函一樣嗎現在兩個部分嘛第一個如果是按照本來公務人員退休撫恤法的規定那個錢是由基金給"},{"start":2261.952,"end":2274.555,"text":"如果是警察人員人事條例提高的所得替代率你們上面的函是說這個差額要另由服務機關依規定發給這個原服務機關指的是哪裡內政部嗎這個部分的話應該是內政部要應該是內政部沒有 因為要講清楚因為台灣是法治國家"},{"start":2287.706,"end":2308.624,"text":"雖然最近這一個禮拜發生的事情讓很多法律人開始在懷疑台灣還是不是法治國家我為什麼肯定權序部啊立法院三讀通過總統公佈的法律你們依照法律的規定所發給退休警消的審定函當然是依照新法嘛"},{"start":2309.895,"end":2337.803,"text":"這是為什麼你們會在12月底的時候把所有退休警銷他們必須要重新審定的審定函發出去的理由嘛我的理解沒有錯吧是嗎好 第二個這些退休的警銷拿到審定函了以後你看左手邊的 大概一個月啦差了人家五千塊左右我如果是用警政二階一級"},{"start":2338.837,"end":2360.895,"text":"年功奉575來看的話一個月大概少了人家5000塊我們國家對退休的景銷一個月少給人家5000塊這個帳還賴著那這個帳要賴到什麼時候啊全序部有沒有資訊"},{"start":2365.137,"end":2384.883,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分的話可能就是要再洽那個內政部那邊確認欠錢的是內政部嗎 是嗎應該講說是服務機關依規定發給那這個部分的一個作業的部分的話是因為內政部是主管機關所以必須由內政部那邊作業對嘛 所以我說欠錢的是內政部沒有錯嗎是嗎編列預算的部分是由內政部 謝謝"},{"start":2392.205,"end":2412.917,"text":"欠這些警銷的啦其實是中華民國中華民國他是法人嘛內政部是主管機關嘛現在政府沒有編預算讓這些警銷一個月少拿了五千塊我的問題是啊公法上面的請求權發生了沒有警權序部"},{"start":2416.287,"end":2441.263,"text":"拿到權序審定函之後 當事人就具有請求權他拿到權序審定函以後 他就具有請求權說得很好我們中華民國的文官 就是有水準嘛念過行政法嘛 知道依法行政的ABC嘛當然是拿到審定函了以後 我為什麼一直跟你們追審定函"},{"start":2442.472,"end":2461.125,"text":"就是要早日的確定他們公法上面請求權的數額嘛算出來了以後才知道國家欠他們多少錢嘛下一個問題他拿到審定函了以後發生了公法上面的請求權可以依照這個行政處分直接申請行政執行嗎請回答"},{"start":2465.902,"end":2491.568,"text":"不要怪我再考你行政法啦這個是很基本的行政法的原理原則每一個公務員考過高考的都有這個水準啦來跟委員報告如果是當事人對於這個群職審定函有不符或者是他想要依據這個群職審定函來請求相關的權益的話那可以依照規定來請求救濟你講得太抽象了啦"},{"start":2493.905,"end":2516.482,"text":"我再跟你講明白一點行政處分如果那個權利是國家的國家就可以直接拿行政處分去申請行政執行對不對對吧好但是這個行政處分它如果發生的權利是給人民的人民是沒有辦法直接拿行政處分去申請行政執行對不對是嗎"},{"start":2521.497,"end":2540.377,"text":"對嘛 這個是行政法的ABC我是覺得很痛苦那這個時候人民該怎麼辦人民只能夠依照這個行政處分所給他公法上面的請求權所產生的請求權基礎依照行政訴訟法的規定提起給付之訴"},{"start":2541.238,"end":2570.371,"text":"提起幾付之數 拿到幾付判決了以後就可以當作執行民意 申請強制執行所有中華民國的財產全部都是強制執行的標的 對不對可以申請強制執行是嗎 好 那現在來啦我的政府賴著不給錢公法上面的請求權拒不給付 那沒有辦法人民啊 只有一條路"},{"start":2571.755,"end":2592.115,"text":"就是對國家提起公法上面給付之訴透過給付之訴取得執行名義申請強制執行我是想利用這一場質詢喚起喚起這些掌握權力的人法治國依法行政的ABC"},{"start":2593.561,"end":2610.555,"text":"同時讓所有的警消同仁藉由這一場質詢聽到他們接下來該怎麼辦他們可能沒有那個勞力時間費用不願意花那個勞力時間費用去打官司沒有關係明年1月1號以後如果內政部還是繼續賴著不還欠錢不給的話"},{"start":2620.168,"end":2642.584,"text":"我會幫他們提起團體訴訟我會幫他們提起團體訴訟所有退休的景銷依照行政訴訟要提起給付之數所有團體訴訟的程序成本我會幫他們承擔好 謝謝好 謝謝黃國昌委員那我們接下來請陳培宇委員宣導"},{"start":2654.673,"end":2657.64,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請交通部 謝謝請陳次"},{"start":2663.089,"end":2687.163,"text":"陳次早安我想直接跟你談關於拒絕排審總預算藍白現在正在做的事情因為今天是交通部我們就來談一談交通建設有哪一些會停擺當然這是我們辦公室的整理也想聽聽看你們的看法跟你們目前掌握到的數字我們來看一下如果總體預算明年度新增加支出的整個行政院有2900多億"},{"start":2688.644,"end":2717.381,"text":"那這2900多億呢有中央有地方但是我們看到如果連災害準備金都被卡住明年有任何的災情任何災損不管是像颱風或像花蓮光復香這種災難可能都會影響到人民生命安全我們來看下一張第一個TPAS人民很有感的對不對市長是好 你可不可以說一下就你們交通部蒐集到的輿情或者是人民的反應給你們哪些正向的回饋"},{"start":2718.536,"end":2742.205,"text":"我想TPAS的一個推動委員上頭有講到大概是每個月到目前為止大概不只是98.2萬到目前為止已經超過百萬了所以到目前為止超過百萬而且我們相關實施了以後也有做過相關民意調查也是獲得多數通勤組的支持"},{"start":2742.645,"end":2764.662,"text":"所以這樣的一個政策我們認為是有必要繼續延續的好 繼續延續 可是關鍵來囉 次長我們看到的資訊是這樣本來的計畫是112到114對不對也就是到了115它對你們來說就是新計畫是不是這樣說是 我們從115以後研擬了一個四年期的到118年的新計畫"},{"start":2765.983,"end":2783.088,"text":"而且他變成公務預算對不對所以如果在這個邏輯底下總預算沒有辦法排審那因為他又是新計劃115到118所以TPAS我可以這樣說嗎到明年的1月1號今天已經20幾號了到明年1月1號會發生什麼事情"},{"start":2784.595,"end":2805.851,"text":"我想因為他是屬於新興的一個計畫所以依照相關的一個預算的程序或規定可能明年大概這一筆的預算就無法通知好下一張我們來看一下這個時候呢很愛收割的蔣萬安很愛收割假裝講好話的侯友宜他們就開始說中央不出我們地方來買單如果他這樣說你怎麼辦"},{"start":2809.478,"end":2824.049,"text":"我想我們還是一樣因為TPAS是由地方政府來研擬出來的地方政府研擬可是你們中央有出錢吧我們中央有相關的一個經費所以如果中央政府的相關的預算無法通過的話我們大概就無法遲疑"},{"start":2824.429,"end":2848.359,"text":"好 我們來看到這個新聞蔣恩甚至說她曾經大力稱讚TPAS的成效她還說她嚴領台北市政府自己的方案我就不知道她有沒有問過侯友宜有沒有問過謝國良北北基一日生活圈非常重要更有很多民眾直接在社群網站上表達他們的不滿也就是說如果總預算沒有辦法排審沒有辦法往下做TPAS就受到影響"},{"start":2849.039,"end":2860.662,"text":"那我就要問 所有這些各縣市的立委尤其在北北基 我們來看一下有誰王弘威 徐巧欣 賴世寶 羅志強 李彥秀他們如果擺爛 不審總預算你蔣萬安要買單嗎接下來 洪孟凱 葉元之 張志倫 廖先祥 林德福 羅明才一樣繼續在立法院擺爛侯友宜要買單嗎再來 牛許廷 萬美玲 魯明哲 呂育玲 圖全吉 邱若驊"},{"start":2877.707,"end":2885.484,"text":"這些是桃園的立委請問桃園市長張善政你要買單嗎最後基隆的立委林佩祥"},{"start":2886.776,"end":2912.946,"text":"這些人口口聲聲說要服國立民光是一個上班族通勤的TPAS他們難道不知道這是新計劃嗎他們難道不知道這影響到已經超過百萬人嗎而且是每個月但是不省就是不省擺爛就是擺爛我真的不知道這些擺爛的藍白立委他們的縣市首長未來如果出來收割說他們要自行買單"},{"start":2914.306,"end":2943.474,"text":"然後一邊又讓傅坤祺在立法院對交通部咆哮叫交通部掏錢你們怎麼辦我想跟委員報告有關這個TPAS的一個政策剛才我已經特別說過這是一個部裡頭要執行的政策但是有關相關預算的一個動之或之用還是要依照相關的程序所以在明年如果相關的立法院的預算沒有通過的話我想這部分我們交通部是無法支應的"},{"start":2943.894,"end":2973.074,"text":"沒關係我們的網民就說沒有Tpass我就改開車而已啊讓台北市整天大塞車蔣萬安你聽到了嗎侯友宜你聽到了嗎張善政你們聽到了嗎謝國良你們聽到了嗎北北雞討一日生活圈以後就開始大塞車一日生活圈了來謝謝次長下一題一樣是跟次長有關再幫大家複習一次這些都是沒有辦法動之的預算的新增資本支出新增計劃不管是中央來自地方錢都會受到影響好來看下一張"},{"start":2974.114,"end":2997.02,"text":"第二個是跟交通部有關治水的相關預算對不對這些治水的預算呢像是今年零七二八中南部的好大雨還有丹納斯颱風都造成中南部非常大的災情跟損害台南的地方也說啊爭取經費來整治甚至呢民眾黨的張啟凱口口聲聲都說我們沒有在關心治水我們沒有在關心我們就來看一下"},{"start":2997.6,"end":3017.592,"text":"治水計畫受到影響台南 高雄 嘉義 雲林我不知道這些縣市的立委是不是跟我們的縣民有仇還是跟地方政府有仇可是很奇怪這裡面就有藍白執政的縣市他們到底是跟誰有仇我就說他們其實是在跟這些縣民跟台灣人有仇來看下一張"},{"start":3018.613,"end":3025.357,"text":"包含即將宣布參選 我們看到記者會張啟凱說你要選嘉義我就不知道你要怎麼對嘉義鄉親交代還有口口聲聲說要選台南市長的謝龍介我也不知道他要怎麼面對這個治水預算一樣是新計畫沒有辦法排審 沒有辦法使用市長你怎麼看"},{"start":3036.963,"end":3049.92,"text":"我想因為這是治水的預算跟交通部在相關的交通工程或道路工程那也是一樣如果是屬於新興計畫的話大概我們後續的推動都會出現問題好 看下一張"},{"start":3052.023,"end":3065.332,"text":"高雄市長柯之恩我現在呼喚你拜託你排審下總預算吧還有雲林縣長張立善你也很會跟中央喊話叫中央補助受災農民我也很想問張立善你叫得動哪些立委要不要趕快呼喚他們一下所以最後我要提醒"},{"start":3067.393,"end":3090.679,"text":"藍白立委回頭試案不要只會去中國領旨辦事拜託你們盡快排審總預算讓交通跟地方基礎建設及早上路而不是在災害發生之後就只會罵中央跟中央要錢然後坐在這裡一整排就說福國利民福國利民我真的不知道福給了誰利給了誰所以如果總預算沒有過地方建設會停擺災害風險會升高我想最後這個結果就請藍白立委自行承擔"},{"start":3095.72,"end":3110.809,"text":"以上謝謝次長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳佩玉委員來 接下來請林國誠委員林國誠委員不在林國誠委員 林國誠來 沒來王逸川委員來做詢問我今天穿得好 又穿水褲"},{"start":3121.687,"end":3149.374,"text":"好謝謝 早晚我們請次長交通部請交通部陳次長委員早今天跟這一個李坤哲委員的這個提案看到各部會現在看起來大家應該沒有人反對那因為這也是牽扯到交通部相關同仁的權益那這個人數也不會再增加只會越來越少所以這個"},{"start":3150.748,"end":3169.408,"text":"也謝謝你們的支持啦好謝謝委員的支持剛剛這個陳培毅委員的這個問題啊我再釐清一下這1月1號開始這個T pass會繼續用嗎對不對呃民眾的話繼續加持的話當然就是繼續用好那是誰受影響呃"},{"start":3172.825,"end":3201.664,"text":"業者嘛業者也會影響最主要是業者嘛因為最後的經費的補助因為民眾付的錢不夠就是政府補貼嘛所以交通部編了這個預算來補貼最後補貼補貼到業者的身上所以就會變成說這個預算什麼時候通過你們才能動之補助那補助原則上先給縣市政府轉給業者嘛對程序上是這樣嗎是OK好所以這個"},{"start":3203.205,"end":3231.795,"text":"明年開始的這個TPAS大家還是會繼續用票還是會繼續賣就是倒楣的是所有的公共運輸相關的業者他們比較晚拿到錢對相關的業者可能會在對或補助的機會的期間會可能會延後延後延後好第二個最近這個公共運輸包括鐵路或捷運的這些危害安全的事情"},{"start":3232.745,"end":3251.889,"text":"我知道民航法有對於這些包括謊報 恐嚇這些有相關的規定民航法規定的很嚴格鐵路法我查完之後只有破壞或竊取鐵路相關的設施有相關的刑罰上的罰則那鐵路法對恐嚇恐嚇高鐵 恐嚇台鐵的這些人"},{"start":3262.106,"end":3289.548,"text":"現在交通部的看法怎麼樣有沒有必要去修鐵路法來處理這些課題我想委員特別提到有關台鐵或高鐵接獲恐嚇那在目前相關鐵路法沒有相關的一個機制那這部分我們會請鐵道局再去通盤檢討必要的時候儘速提出相關的一個修法對 我建議是這樣就是說因為民航法規定得非常清楚"},{"start":3290.609,"end":3299.333,"text":"那其他的大概都是用這個社會秩序維護法所以這個法則相對民航法刑法這比較輕所以我是建議包括鐵路法還有這個大眾捷運法因為鐵路法裡面是有相關法則你們在68條"},{"start":3310.999,"end":3334.698,"text":"後來加了之一 之二 之三這些都是相關的法則不過都還是在因為去破壞了這些跟鐵路有關的設施然後才會受到包括刑法所以我是建議在68條的前後有沒有機會再補進去關於這個部分 這鐵路法大眾捷運法大眾捷運法的部分"},{"start":3337.779,"end":3358.844,"text":"我看完應該是相關破壞或者是運送運送類似危險的這些物品所以如果這些事情要修法大眾協運法也順便檢討我們會通盤就有關委員剛才特別也提到的有關鐵路 捷運軌道相關的一個法令會一定來做修正然後還有一個是公共運輸場站"},{"start":3360.621,"end":3384.85,"text":"因為我們高鐵台鐵的這個軌道的廠站這個明顯就是一個站體那我們現在因為台灣非常多的轉運站那有些轉運站的規模其實也夠大那進出的公路客運市區公車也都人數都很頻繁那對於這一些公共運輸的這個客運的轉運站這些廠站"},{"start":3385.632,"end":3392.075,"text":"看在哪一些法規裡頭啊也要進行相關的規範因為他也可能恐嚇這一個公共運輸的場站客運的公路客運的場站市區公車的場站這些都有可能那我想這一塊也請交通部啊"},{"start":3402.389,"end":3429.332,"text":"在這個部分盡快來研議來進行相關的修法這樣可以嗎可以 我們謝謝委員的建議我想公共運輸我們會整體來看除了恐嚇或者是攻擊等等的看有沒有相關的法令還有缺乳的我們一併把它補上最後一個是台北車站下面有一個防災聯合防災中心我今天早上確認了以後次長你知道那個防災中心平場裡面有幾個人嗎"},{"start":3432.506,"end":3455.585,"text":"我知道他是長期開設 裡面幾個人我告訴你好不好整個高鐵 台鐵 北捷 桃捷 地下街所有的廣場 設了一個聯合防災中心平常進駐人數兩人一個主任 一個承辦同仁"},{"start":3457.642,"end":3470.209,"text":"所以那個地方啊每次在檢報的時候非常風光啊螢幕一百多個一堆人去參觀過 對吧平常我現在比我現在講話那裡就是兩個人那你說那兩個人是什麼單位的嗎市長不知道齁我告訴你那兩個是台鐵北捷 高鐵 桃捷通通沒有人進駐"},{"start":3487.162,"end":3490.465,"text":"後來知道事情發生了 次長你知道他沒有什麼聯絡嗎那兩位同仁怎麼聯絡北捷 聯絡高鐵 聯絡陶捷嗎用耐啦 用耐群組啦 這樣怎麼會服啦次長 早一天再去看一下這些相關的"},{"start":3506.704,"end":3516.53,"text":"管理單位啊 包括警政單位 大家也去看一下改進一下啦不然那個地方 我今天聽到說兩個人在這裡進駐 我實在是卡不認了這以後怎麼聯合防災啦我好 委員報告一下事件發生之後 我們鐵道局大概第一個會去做有關跟相關的單位會去檢討剛才委員特別提到那個聯合應變中心他有一個應變的機制我知道啦 你們有分三級嘛"},{"start":3533.519,"end":3539.504,"text":"但是平常就是兩位那升到二級的時候就變幾位升到一級你們的防護團的團長就要進來總幹就要進來但是這個其他單位好像跟他們沒有關係好像就是交通部的台鐵在管那裡可是那整個車站不是只有台鐵好不好 時間的關係再請你們"},{"start":3554.496,"end":3567.524,"text":"把那個防災中心啊 一個聯合防災中心 裡面兩個人還沒看但是他的收尾系統有Q到議員來我知道啦 就接進來啦 問題是現場監控的人員太少了這個我們一併來檢討好 謝謝原委員要加強啦 謝謝阿川委員的提醒好 來 也謝謝次長接下來有請許富奎委員 謝謝"},{"start":3585.047,"end":3588.608,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們陳次長好 次長有請 謝謝我也好次長 我想現在這個藍白的立委就忙著政治鬥爭尤其他們關心什麼要彈劾賴總統而已真的完全不顧我們台灣的這個民生還有我們這個整個這個明年總預算的一個執行要癱瘓我們這個中央政府跟地方政府"},{"start":3611.554,"end":3629.532,"text":"當然我想我們要關切的還是在於說今天已經是12月24號 還有一星期就進入一個新的年度剛剛我們 包含我們培育委員也好我們幾位委員在關心的是未來這樣總預算沒有省我們的中央政府跟地方政府執行的上面"},{"start":3630.052,"end":3656.392,"text":"尤其我們關心的這個交通建設也好很多這個百姓的這個踢趴式的權益也好當然我想行政院包含我們交通部我想面對後面這個明年新的這個年度到底要怎麼樣對大眾去強調說這個未來對百姓權益受影響的部分市長我想是不是有一個比較明確的一個說法能夠讓大眾知道他們未來面臨的這個壓力跟損害的部分能不能做一個說明"},{"start":3657.285,"end":3676.36,"text":"我想跟委員報告因為所有的交通的施政大概都是會從預算上來表達所以剛才有特別提到如果年度的預算如果沒有排審來通過以後雖然有既有的預算機制可以去動用既有的計畫可以來推動但是對於新興的一個計畫可能會受到影響"},{"start":3677.12,"end":3704.321,"text":"我們也都曉得很多的計畫就是因為與時俱進所以才會推出所有的新興的計畫當然在這樣的情況下那個就會受到影響所以大家比較關切的跟很多民眾有關的像TPAS這樣的一個政策就會受到影響所以這部分我想我們會跟社會大眾在廣泛的一個說明說如果預算沒有通過對於交通部相關施政上的一個影響會是怎樣"},{"start":3705.262,"end":3723.581,"text":"同樣的也會說明對他們的影響會是怎樣對 我想這個必須要講清楚說明白誰造的因 解的果我想要讓百姓非常清楚的知道尤其我們屏東有個國民黨的委員都死去亂講說他幫屏東要了一百多億看了幾天"},{"start":3724.662,"end":3749.799,"text":"他只有講到增加那一塊沒有講到我們一般統籌性補助計畫性補助減少了一百多億我們總共這樣子算一算我們少了四十六億這真的要怎麼亂說我想這個對百姓真的要講清楚說明白我想我們今天的重點在於說這個我們前幾天很不幸發生這樣的一個無差別的一個攻擊事件那我想我過去好幾次在委員會也特別提到"},{"start":3750.659,"end":3770.608,"text":"這個對於我們整個這個交通場域的一個安全性包含一個警力的配置保全人員的配置我想針對這部分市長我們有沒有針對這樣的一個事件會造成因為國際媒體都大幅報導這樣的一個問題會不會造成我們國外遊客對於台灣這個旅遊環境的一個負面印象我們有沒有做一個掌握的一個狀況"},{"start":3771.758,"end":3779.684,"text":"我想事件的一個發生當然是在國際間產生了一個很大的報導但是隨著我們後續的一個處理我相信相關的一個掌控掌握應該是對整個事件的一個發生是有達到一個災害控管的一個效果當然對於國際旅客來這一部分我們觀光署大概也會透過外館或外交部我相信"},{"start":3797.757,"end":3815.778,"text":"也會對外說明整個事件的處理跟對於整個國家整個社會安全而往的一個影響那我想影響的一個程度應該是有限的我們會繼續來加大力道來做相關的一個宣導不要讓它影響這個國外旅客來台旅遊"},{"start":3816.936,"end":3842.185,"text":"市長 我想我們交通部的職責是在於這個對於陸海空的一個場域的一個安全性那當然我們會有搭配一些保全人力的一個搭配但是我覺得最重要還是一個建井率的一個要求那這部分我想我也要求了警政署針對我們包含我們這個尤其像屏東來講我們一些這個公路 鐵路這些的一個建井率的一個負擔但是因為警政署也面臨到他們現有的井率不足"},{"start":3842.665,"end":3865.397,"text":"那加上有些遠景的年紀比較大這個行動力上面無力負擔那真的這個部分我想交通部也應該要一個跨部位的一個整合機制市長我們有沒有可能在我們相關的交通場域設置一個所謂的一個緊急包圍的一個按鈕我想讓我們的百姓如果一旦發生狀況可以有一個救援的一個機制有沒有可能做這樣的一個規劃跟設計"},{"start":3866.929,"end":3881.281,"text":"我想委員有關緊急按鈕的這樣的一個規劃設計我想我們會去跟相關的一個廠站或各運具的主管機關大家共同來討論看這樣設置有沒有可行如果可行的話應該是怎麼樣來設置"},{"start":3882.702,"end":3902.576,"text":"因為我們現在也看到當然我們這個場域裡面都有一個監視的一個系統但是我們也發現包含來講我們的警力的配置保全人員配置我們一個整個整合的一個系統還是有出現一些的狀況那這部分我想交通部怎麼樣來做一個全國性的一個通報系統的一個整合有沒有後續能不能盡快來做這樣一個規劃處理"},{"start":3904.798,"end":3920.898,"text":"那委員剛才特別提到那個見景率其實還有保全所以是我的了解事件發生之後其實就軌道的部分已經都透過像見景率要提高巡查的點也要增加等等的"},{"start":3921.358,"end":3936.826,"text":"這些他們大概都有積極的作為那至於說是不是有緊急案例等等的這樣的一個我想我們再來通盤的檢討那這個一個月之內給我們一份書面報告好不好好那最後我想我還是要求這個航港局跟高工局的部分"},{"start":3937.626,"end":3961.887,"text":"航港局每年都會進行一個演練那因為我們的演練項目主要是針對船隻被挾持或者是企圖登陸台灣的一個演練模式並沒有針對港口設施或是郵輪碼頭這樣的一個涉及一個恐攻或是放火的一些事件我想這個航港局能不能做一個規劃把這個部分納進去局長這部分能不能是 謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":3962.867,"end":3987.624,"text":"跟委員報告 依照上綱法以及國際標準的規定我們上綱裡面每一年都必須要進行防恐相關的保全演習應該強化這樣的項目是 針對委員提醒的這個項目我們也會針對這一次這麼重大的共濟事件會納入未來我們每一年的演習的重要科目"},{"start":3988.404,"end":4006.132,"text":"那另外高工舉部分因為我們這個我們的服務區現在都湧進很多的遊客那尤其明年有九個至少有九個連續假期我想這個連續假期遊客量更大那我們也擔心這個有人會故意在這個服務區裡面會製造一些危急的一個狀況那是不是高工舉應該針對這個演練部分也應該強化"},{"start":4007.392,"end":4027.185,"text":"是跟委員報告服務區的部分我們已經跟國道公路警察局還有這一個我們委外的廠商還有保全人員都已經有做相關的一個這個聯繫跟這個緊急應變事件的一個規劃那演習的部分我們也會加強應該強化一個密度跟次數好不好好謝謝好謝謝許副委員謝謝市長李坤澤委員謝謝"},{"start":4041.319,"end":4050.423,"text":"謝謝主席 請一下陳彥博次長好 次長有請 謝謝葉協榮局長 陳文睿局長林福山局長次長好推動自衛制的一個修法其實是要有利於公部門的流產跟攬產目前各單位自衛制人員的一個統計公路局 高工局 航港局"},{"start":4070.911,"end":4091.903,"text":"他們平均年資都大概22年23年24年也大概都跟我到交通委員會的時間差不多在這樣一個狀況裡面其實我們看到他們的平均年齡也大概跟我們也都差不多其實我們"},{"start":4093.24,"end":4107.599,"text":"面對這種狀況最主要是要討論說近年來交通跟土木工程的這種面臨人才的缺乏其實問題是非常嚴重那也影響到公務機關那出現不少的公務人員"},{"start":4108.98,"end":4133.463,"text":"轉任民間 甚至是考取公務人員的資格之後他仍然前往民間就業的狀況其實是非常嚴重的提升待遇 改善同仁的業務環境確保待遇的一個平等我想是成為流財 攬財的一個重要的關鍵同時在公路局 高工局跟航港局"},{"start":4134.608,"end":4156.497,"text":"高階公務人員逐漸的一個退休那他們經驗豐富而且經歷完整的這種中下層的職位制人員他們面臨什麼上面的退休但是中下層這些優秀人員他沒有辦法晉升那導致這一種"},{"start":4158.223,"end":4183.364,"text":"他們平時就晉升無門所以變成他們也難以禁用就是說新進的公務人員也難以禁用因為你上面的沒有動中下階層沒辦法升那新進人員更不用說啦那這種大量的資位制人員不管是公路局高工局或航港局啊他們平均年資都超過20年那"},{"start":4185.322,"end":4211.772,"text":"目前相關人員的數量跟連資情況部長你 次長你清楚嗎簡單說明一下我想相關的人數大概就如剛才委員就如簡報這裡所說明的大概公路局這裡頭是416人高工局大概57人然後航港局大概有108人其實委員剛才特別提到自衛制其實就是希望這幾個機關"},{"start":4213.593,"end":4241.768,"text":"包含了很多重大工程或者是航港的相關的工程也都是一樣都希望他們是久任而且能夠把他們的專業留下來所以自衛制本身是這樣的一個設計所以如果把這樣的自衛制它無法轉任就是剛才委員特別提到的有的是上不去有的是既然你上不去下面就補不來那整個機關裡頭就產生一個斷層的一個現象一個斷層 一個僵化的體制那如果這樣繼續下去可能不利於機關的用人"},{"start":4242.788,"end":4268.663,"text":"中下階層 經驗豐富的人他上不去那新進的更沒有機會那如果像更高階的他其實可以賦予他更重要的責任他其實也可以再上去或者是到其他機關去服務這個是我第二次針對職位制人員的人事制度來提出提案的一個修法是 我們很謝謝委員更早以前其實職位制人員如果"},{"start":4269.403,"end":4287.083,"text":"他沒辦法轉任他只是留任原職就是撐這種原序定植物離職時為止那這所造成的結果就是機關用人必要時候他連調降都沒有辦法"},{"start":4288.896,"end":4310.683,"text":"過去我提出相關的修正它最主要就是說將原本留任原子稱原序定之位之植物至離子時為止修正為將留任原序定之位同序列或較低序列之植物至離子時為止給予用人單位的這種調降的可能"},{"start":4311.443,"end":4314.204,"text":"那這一次在針對自衛制來進行討論就是說如果派控人員已經全面的鬆綁那自衛制人員應該做出相對應的一個調整來 次長說明一下是 我們非常認同這個委員的一個看法跟提案說明"},{"start":4328.308,"end":4350.846,"text":"因為其實就自衛制的同仁來講他其實還是某種程度有經過國家的一個考試所以就權益的保障其實他應該更要受到整個國家的保障或信賴的一個保護所以如果派用已經有做一些調整我覺得自衛制同仁更應該來比照這樣的方式來做處理我是看修法後的這種自衛制人員的晉升雖然獲得開放"},{"start":4353.615,"end":4370.766,"text":"但是仍然還要有相應的考訓的一個制度過去資位制人員他是經過深知考來進行調整未來修法通過之後針對資位制人員的一個調升預計要進行怎樣的一個辦理"},{"start":4372.748,"end":4392.868,"text":"我覺得它現在有一個增資升省所以它會經過一個你要確保這種任用的公平性對 它會經過一個增省然後也會經過一個訓練訓練合格以後才有可能有晉升的一個機會相對應的考訓的一個制度仍然要快速的建立起來這是修法又有一個重要的方向"},{"start":4393.627,"end":4417.303,"text":"是 這我們會來注意 謝謝委員好 謝謝李坤澤委員接下來請陳樹岳委員陳樹岳委員陳樹岳委員沒在來 何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在沈發慧委員沈發慧委員沈發慧委員不在接下來我們請最美麗的烏斯亞委員來做詢答這樣對嗎 要聽"},{"start":4423.157,"end":4423.978,"text":"就是要聽這句謝謝最帥氣最專業的教委莊教委 謝謝有請我們次長有請交通部陳次長委員好"},{"start":4440.806,"end":4461.392,"text":"支持國家的交通建設不管是人力或是預算都缺一不可所以我今天會聚焦在今天要修的三個法我支持自衛制的人員鬆綁人事晉升的規定為國家有助於流財攬財但是我也要呼籲總預算未審我們的交通發展是重災戶下一頁"},{"start":4463.533,"end":4479.95,"text":"首先呢在我們努力的打拼之下台灣的交通建設大躍進不只是跨時代的規劃更是世界級的一個提升首先淡江大橋在小英總統2017年任內來推動"},{"start":4483.033,"end":4498.571,"text":"賴清德擔任行政院長的時候核定這一個真的是創世紀也就是大家說工法非常的困難由普利茲克獎的建築得主Zadar Hadi他所設計的所以呢我們都看到了讓國人驕傲"},{"start":4500.352,"end":4525.428,"text":"這麼困難的工程我們做到了2026年就要5月正式通車而對本席更重要的就是可以紓解淡水的交通藉由淡江大橋的分流不會造成未來我真的很擔心淡北道路快速的一夕之間把大量的交通流量"},{"start":4526.068,"end":4551.628,"text":"来带到北投造成北投的交通瓶颈所以说我期待淡江大桥可以扮演这样重要的一个交通舒缓的分流的一个实质的效果肯定你们也感谢交通部同仁所以我支持你们的人员要松绑下页第二个呢淘机三航下明天北廊厅是不是要正式启用"},{"start":4552.738,"end":4575.264,"text":"明天下午這也是跨世紀我們同樣邀請到普利茲克建築得主英國的Richard Rogers真的是不容易在困難的交通工程我們都克服了困境明天是北郎廳正式啟用第三航廈預計2027年完工目前進度如何正朝這個方向積極地來轉改"},{"start":4579.198,"end":4593.315,"text":"所以說北郎廳八個大型登機門明天啟用可以擴大服務580萬人次一年第三航廈的整體工程呢更可以提升讓淘機的服務人次要升到8200萬我支持"},{"start":4595.758,"end":4624.145,"text":"所以有好表現在人事上給予鬆綁我支持夏業所以今天的三個法比照派用人員鬆綁自衛制人員與官務人員的調任升遷的規定有利於強化人才的輪調跟培育來鼓勵交通部門人員的士氣我都支持也呼籲跨黨派的委員一起來支持所以在人力的鬆綁我們一起來促成夏業"},{"start":4625.225,"end":4643.246,"text":"但是總預算沒有審查這件事情就不是執政黨一黨能夠來左右的真的要懇請在野黨的委員行行好預算就是民生預算沒有顏色"},{"start":4644.247,"end":4659.305,"text":"倒數八天審預算的期限就要到了但是今年是連審都沒有審就像是一個學生要畢業了連第一本課本的第一頁都還沒有翻開"},{"start":4660.646,"end":4677.163,"text":"怎麼會有這樣子的國會呢那交通部是重災戶TPAS的部分75億美丁美當還有交通部的經常性的延續性計畫新增也高達248億我要就教於次長下一頁"},{"start":4678.044,"end":4698.371,"text":"TPAS的部分我們提升了2.0對於公運的常客的回饋甚至今年12月啟用的91條中長程國道客運路線當月搭兩次就可以享回扣這就是提升我們公共運輸的量能鼓勵大家嘛"},{"start":4699.091,"end":4715.568,"text":"但是呢TPAS的預算這樣受到影響Total 364億裡頭是75億受到總預算未審查的影響嘛 對不對 下一頁可不可以清楚的告訴我們受影響最多的是哪一些區域的乘客權益呢"},{"start":4717.436,"end":4730.199,"text":"我想就是委員特別這個畫面上所呈現的就是北北基桃的這個通勤的人數會受到影響最大的影響所以TPAS如果總預算新興計畫的預算2992億裡頭98.2萬通勤族的權益受影響受影響最多的就是北北基桃"},{"start":4740.021,"end":4764.061,"text":"的通勤族高達52.8萬人我們在場有自強委員我們同樣是台北市的立委是不是能夠來為通勤族發聲如果TPAS的預算75億受到影響那台北市恐怕要先用市政府的預算來支應是這樣嗎"},{"start":4765.402,"end":4791.457,"text":"否則你第三應該是第一季之後應該是四月以後就斷吹了嗎相關的預算因為沒有通過他又是屬於新興的一個預算所以這部分的交通部相關的一個補助環大概就沒辦法支應的所以沒有辦法支應的話除非市政府願意來是就是地方政府可能要來做相關的處理所以如果羅志強不支持總預算審查可能要講話買單了"},{"start":4794.321,"end":4814.026,"text":"所以我们希望我们呼吁预算就是民生我呼吁我们各个县市的当然也不止首都圈啦不好意思至少我用我特别看到您进来是因为北北鸡桃在Tplus的通勤族受害的人数是最多的好下一页另外在交通部门"},{"start":4815.066,"end":4828.491,"text":"如果總預算繼續不審查對於經常性的經費當中延續性資本的支出Total也有248億受影響對不對哪些重大的交通建設新增的預算就下不去了"},{"start":4831.904,"end":4844.737,"text":"這裡頭委員特別提到的很多的不管是鐵路尤其是鐵路公路當然也有啦鐵路的桃園鐵路地下化54億新增預算沒有辦法執行花東地區鐵路雙軌電氣化新增28億預算沒有辦法到位嘉義市區鐵路高架化新增20億沒有辦法支用台南市"},{"start":4855.407,"end":4867.402,"text":"的鐵路地下化21億也會受到影響還有包括針對國旅加碼補助Total 35億都會受到影響我這樣的羅列是不是正確"},{"start":4868.439,"end":4883.414,"text":"像委員特別提到的這個觀光的國旅補助確實它是一個是全民嘛對不對它是一個新興的計畫那另外還有的是公路上還有所謂的高頻二快的那也是一個新興的計畫高頻二快也受影響所以從桃園張善政市長要關心了54億如果沒有辦法補貼到位那桃園的交通建設怎麼辦"},{"start":4892.142,"end":4920.394,"text":"花東地區我們的立委們副官及總召門也要關心到鐵路雙軌電企劃新增的預算如果總預算未審沒有辦法到位那花東的市民們他們的權益就會受到影響好最後來淡北道路的衝擊會嚴重影響北投的交通我擔任立委我從議員到立委一路的來監督沒有辦法阻擋得了"},{"start":4921.374,"end":4948.933,"text":"但是我們至少配套要做好我想您過去也到思瑤的辦公室我們討論過無數次好淡北道路已經給了補助下一頁現在新北我們給了59億佔57%中央來協助新北市進行淡北道路我再次講我站在北投區立委的立場我是非常非常的質疑因為配套沒有到位那"},{"start":4951.277,"end":4973.057,"text":"沒辦法我只好想方設法我擋不下淡北道路我只能夠從中央來幫助雙北市政府至少要做好配套至少要做好配套才不會讓淡北道路未來上路之後真的造成北投區交通的噩夢那今天跟你們相關因為公路局也在這"},{"start":4974.438,"end":4990.624,"text":"對於思瑤爭取中央可以出資18億補助新北市興建關渡新橋因為我們認為這是一個能夠來排解淡北道路衝擊大渡路交通的一個方案現在進度如何"},{"start":4994.035,"end":5006.399,"text":"現在正由台北新北市政府在做相關規劃我要跟市長報告您的了解也是我的了解可是你們是交通部的"},{"start":5007.843,"end":5034.491,"text":"長官你們有專業你們有power中央給了59億協助新北蓋淡北道路我拜託配套去盯緊一點侯友宜不要拿了錢騎馬的配套承諾給北投居民的侯友宜市長也好蔣萬安市長也好承諾要改善淡北道路的後續交通配套的說到要做到我們要超前部署"},{"start":5035.371,"end":5050.657,"text":"新北市確實還在評估可行性評估有四個方案評估了N年了這一個關渡新橋誰爭取的不是侯友宜不是蔣萬安是吳思瑤在地的立委中央也願意出錢買單了那麼不要再讓新北繼續慢半拍我們督促督促看他的評估如何好嗎"},{"start":5060.731,"end":5076.195,"text":"好委員的建議我們會積極的責請公路局來加入他們的我請次長跟局長我們也是會後來安排來到本席我們私下來討論這件事情好嗎我們到委員辦公室好謝謝謝謝教委謝謝大家謝謝吳思堯委員接下來請洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員不在來再來召委翁曉琳委員來做詢答"},{"start":5092.805,"end":5103.434,"text":"是 謝謝主席這邊有請陳次長請交通部陳次長待會還請那個群術部的蕭專委來 群術部專委有來了今天是法規師嘛今天問到的你還是機關的代表人問到的如果不是當你回答回去跟你們部裡面長官來做一個說明"},{"start":5123.527,"end":5152.809,"text":"好這個謝謝那麼首先我想請教次長的就是因為本席看到你們這次的提案針對航港航港局的組織法修正高工局組織法修正等等那麼最重要就是說想要把這個所謂的自衛制的人員未來讓他們可以這個轉任到公務人員就是一般的所謂的健檢委制的這個"},{"start":5154.451,"end":5169.845,"text":"軌道那麼但是呢事實上就是你們這次的提案已經有跟其他的部會有進行過相關這個有進行過仔細的溝通討論了嗎因為我看起來全區部基本上是反對你們這麼做的"},{"start":5173.878,"end":5197.39,"text":"對 可以請次長先談是 我想這一個制度上在提案這是提案委員的一個提出來當然我們很支持這是對於交通部尤其是這三個機關的用人是更為彈性那最主要其實在這之前已經有派用人員他已經有類似的一個規定而且也做了一個"},{"start":5198.23,"end":5216.688,"text":"相關的一個鬆綁所以我們認為這樣的一個制度其實那還有一個是自衛的人員那如果在一個機關裡面一個有做處理一個沒做處理其實對整個機關的一個同仁的一個不管是士氣也好或者是相關人員的禁用也好大概都會受到影響"},{"start":5217.349,"end":5233.231,"text":"因為事實上在先前的法規裡面有給他們六年的時間去做轉換讓他們去選擇但是這六年期間裡面看起來交通部也沒有任何的提案你們有主動的說要進行相關的修法還是純粹就是立法委員們自己提的提案"},{"start":5234.202,"end":5262.76,"text":"其實在這個過程裡頭其實同仁都有一直有所建議所以有沒有交通部有主動提案當然到了這個所謂的派用人員就是有關公路人員派用人員的任用的就是公路人員任用法相關修正之後這樣的聲音更大其實我們交通部內部大概各局大概都有所建議我們也都有在研擬相關的一個修法的一個建議"},{"start":5263.52,"end":5271.582,"text":"現在我看起來今天你們的報告書裡面這個法如果說通過的話大概會影響差不多大概590個同仁的權益讓他們可能未來可以就是軌道轉換但是本席更"},{"start":5280.405,"end":5306.96,"text":"在乎的就是全序部的報告書裡面所談的那麼事實上他們對於這樣子的這次的修法並不認同而且非常擔心就是說未來如果說這個條文通過的話可能會造成就是有後此不比的一個情況那麼可不可以請全序部再講一下為什麼你們這次的書面報告裡面你們基本上是不贊同這個法律的修正"},{"start":5309.707,"end":5335.387,"text":"根文報告基本上這三間機關從交通事業機構轉成為行政機關之後歷來考試院的政策對於具有工人任用資格的人是要轉任的轉任為警戒委制那位具任用資格人的話基本上是用原本的適用的資格也就是說他是職位那就是職位任用官務就是官務任用以保障當事人的權益"},{"start":5336.127,"end":5355.08,"text":"那在前次修法的時候呢基本上已經有設定一個過渡期那在這個過渡期間使自衛制的人員可以就是說自行選擇那選定之後呢就不可以再改變那這期間已經保障了那基本上我們部裡面的意見只是承襲就是說考試院的一個相關的一個決定"},{"start":5356.361,"end":5363.883,"text":"我們只是表達說因為內部的人員種類過多之後呢相關的權益呢就會失衡那在管理上會導致一個問題那如果在了解是對所以謝謝這個我想更進一步了解就是說如果說我們這個法通過那未來其他事業單位會不會也會比照也會比照辦理而且他可能會影響到的人員是有多少不知道權稅部這邊有沒有這個相關的"},{"start":5388.729,"end":5400.538,"text":"數據統計跟委員報告最後一個交通事業機構是台鐵台鐵已經轉公司了那未來已經沒有交通事業機構那現在都是已經改成行政機關的體制但是像是經濟部他們之前他們也有類似像這樣事業機構對不對我的意思說如果說之後其他的部會也比較辦理然後鬆綁他們的組織法它的影響層面會不會很廣"},{"start":5410.534,"end":5427.888,"text":"應該是這麼說委員所提的比方說經濟部的機關它以後改制之後如果未具任用資格人將來要選擇這樣子的方式處理的話那就要看相關的組織法規有沒有要做一個設定如果沒有的話那就回到它所授權奠定的辦法去做規範"},{"start":5428.729,"end":5437.23,"text":"所以我本席認為說這一次的修法它其實影響層面是非常廣的是不是為了交通部可能那五百多位同仁讓他們可以從自衛制轉換成為公務員的建委任職它不僅不是只是與交通部有關而且它可能未來會影響到全台灣的其他的部會事業單位可能都會有這樣的做法而且它也可能會提高"},{"start":5458.494,"end":5465.757,"text":"整個的政府的預算那麼更何況就是當時在法規上面已經有給這些人做選擇嘛像譬如說剛剛講的交通的事業單位它是給他6年的時間做選擇那麼既然已經選擇選定了那就不應該要再做任何的改變如果說今天是滋味制上面的人員認為說它無法升等我覺得應該是要去檢討那個滋味制裡面是不是還有可能"},{"start":5487.965,"end":5512.657,"text":"有更合理的一個升遷的制度管道而不是說讓他整個去轉到這個公務人員的健委任職這是本席的看法好 那麼除此之外就說本席因為馬上就放連假了這個今年的因為聖誕就行刑紀念日的假期還有元旦的假期那麼所以就讓本席很擔心就是說不知道現在交通部對於就是"},{"start":5514.398,"end":5525.416,"text":"廉價期間那麼可能國道又會大塞車你們現在目前有什麼樣的因應方案嗎規劃嗎我還記得我在去年的時候光是從台北開到雲林就開了6個半小時"},{"start":5527.438,"end":5547.334,"text":"我想跟委員報告有關即將到來的春節的這樣的一個其實春節完了以後他其實放假四天以後又是這個應該是228的廉價所以像這樣的一個有關廉價輸運的一個規劃其實在上個禮拜也是我本人大概有跟"},{"start":5548.435,"end":5569.973,"text":"屬的相關機關都有探討就是明年延續假期的相關的配套措施高工局因為這次的連假它是比較長的所以它會有一些放假回去的時候它會有一個分流的效果當然不會員的在出山是一個不管是南來北往不管是高速公路也好或是軌道運輸也好"},{"start":5570.313,"end":5597.085,"text":"都是這個最尖峰的一個時間那這一部分呢我們已經責請我們部署機關做相關的一個因應的作為本席希望說你們這次的對於這個放廉價的這個幾個大廉價這個國道的輸運的部分一定要特別的注意要想一個比較更好的方式避免在國道上面大塞車然後呢還有一個問題就是有關於這個行人"},{"start":5598.989,"end":5603.804,"text":"地域的問題那麼我們知道其實現在台灣每年"},{"start":5605.799,"end":5623.697,"text":"因為行人穿越斑馬線而發生的交通事故是逐年的攀高那麼之前欣恩還說台灣是行人地獄可是沒想到我們的政府又說台灣不是行人地獄 這個泰國才是然後又硬是把泰國拉下來墊背但是我認為說這樣子的比喻並不是很好"},{"start":5629.483,"end":5645.072,"text":"那麼重點就是說我們現在都在推廣這個汽機車要禮讓行人的運動那麼也知道現在交通部針對就是汽機車如果說沒有禮讓行人的話又加重罰則可是我們看到更多的情況是很多的汽機車的駕駛人對於我們現在的行人"},{"start":5648.934,"end":5666.967,"text":"走斑馬線 牛步或在裡面拍照然後慢慢的看手機邊滑手機所以這其實也會影響到交通那麼對於這個部分不知道交通部有沒有更積極的做法現在依照交通管理處罰條例第78條的規定行人的違規只罰500塊現在是汽機車駕駛人的違規是罰6000"},{"start":5673.892,"end":5684.007,"text":"這似乎是對於違規的行為的處罰程度是完全不同你們沒有聽到很多的騎機車駕駛人的抱怨嗎"},{"start":5685.095,"end":5705.643,"text":"我想跟委員報告有關行人的一個或者整個應該是講說整體的交通安全我先跟委員一個大致上的輪廓其實經過大家共同縣市政府跟中央大家共同努力其實所有的交通事故是朝著降低的趨勢在發展我們也發現經過大家強力的宣導"},{"start":5708.084,"end":5730.804,"text":"在入口的里让等等的我们也发现在入口发生交通事故的死亡人数是减少的在路段上有很多的是这里头特别提到的行人在穿越马路不依标志标线规定或号字来行走等等的所以有关行人如何确保行人的用路安全的这一部分我想"},{"start":5731.765,"end":5735.527,"text":"也是在我們每一個月的這個盜安記者會裡頭我們大概都對外來說明我們會不會加強這方面的一個宣導好 是我希望次長回去之後可以針對有關於行人違規的部分要再進行檢討因為確實現在我們看到的狀況是很多的這個行人"},{"start":5751.079,"end":5776.091,"text":"他們自己不自律然後在行人道的時候故意慢慢的走或者是說有一些違規的行為那這些話基本上都是值得交通部看看有沒有做更多的宣導或者是說我們修法把罰金再往上面提高是 我想交通安全是要所有用路人來共同維持那這部分我們會來加強宣導那就請你們再回去檢討 謝謝"},{"start":5778.373,"end":5784.896,"text":"謝謝翁曉琳召委 接下來請羅志強委員來做詢答王一川委員主席有請我們陳次長有請交通部陳次長"},{"start":5795.084,"end":5814.49,"text":"委員好市長好這次台北車站台北發生了無差別的暴力攻擊造成了重大傷亡明天就是聖誕節下週就是跨年元旦更是大眾運輸跟各大觀光景點人潮聚集的高峰"},{"start":5815.538,"end":5841.618,"text":"因為交通部他轄管全國各大交通場站包括國道休息區 鐵道 港口 航空站 重要觀光景區等等我想請問次長交通部對於突發公共安全事件的應變以及守護公共運輸以及保障用路人跟旅客安全針對這一次重大的所謂的無差別的暴力攻擊交通部有沒有什麼特別的因應跟精進的作為"},{"start":5842.543,"end":5848.186,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下所有各個運輸場站或者是運具車站等等的其實我們平常就定有相關的因應整體的安全的災害或者是防恐的應變計畫而且在應變計畫裡面也大概都會有相關的演練所以這樣的機制是有的"},{"start":5867.254,"end":5891.888,"text":"但是因為有這樣的一次的一個應該是一個事件發生之後所以我們布里頭鐵道局大概就是第一個因為是很多的軌道廠站所以要求相關的一個軌道廠站不管是台鐵 高鐵或是各地方的捷運系統都要加強相關的一個防恐或人員安全維護的一個作業好"},{"start":5893.929,"end":5918.047,"text":"另外他也會回過頭來去檢討我剛才特別提到的他們有相關的應變的計畫他平常會有災害應變的計畫那也會因應這種防恐也有防恐的計畫他也會去相關的一個檢討那剛才有委員特別提到的聯合應變中心的相關的運作的機制他也會一併來做一個檢討來確保相關的一個用路人的安全"},{"start":5919.815,"end":5946.596,"text":"我想請教一下因為台北車站是全台第一大站它包含高鐵 台鐵 北捷 桃捷四鐵還有四條地下街跟微風廣場每天有50萬人進出交通部請台鐵局在2019年在台北車站東側U1層設置聯合防災中心我想請問次長知道台北車站聯合防災中心的功能是什麼"},{"start":5947.575,"end":5973.137,"text":"我想台北聯合防災應變中心就是剛才委員特別提到因為在那裡頭出入的人員很多相關的機關很多相關聯防機制是怎麼處理的所以他們就有訂定一個特定區的防災應變的一個計畫在那個計畫裡頭就會成立那個中心由那個中心來統籌該地區就是台北特定區的相關維安的一個計畫好"},{"start":5976.339,"end":6003.003,"text":"就本席這邊的資料聯合防災中心在整合台北車站各個單位CCTV監控救災無線電及消防火警訊號等防救災設備他設定所謂的緊急應變標準作業程序他在2019年曾經針對廣告燈箱起火置物櫃行李箱起火無差別暴力攻擊事件未爆彈處置以及毒化物"},{"start":6003.564,"end":6015.079,"text":"等五項情境進行演習那我想請教次長2019年之後聯合防災中心還有沒有曾經針對這種類似的無差別暴力事件來進行演習"},{"start":6018.959,"end":6043.276,"text":"後續如果我可以提供他們演習的一個資料給委員但是我的了解像這樣的一個中心它非常的一個重要所以每一年它都一定會定有一個防災演練的一個計畫甚至在整個不管是交通部也好或整個行政院也好有時候都會指定台北車站做一個演練的一個場所我跟次長說因為我本席這邊"},{"start":6045.337,"end":6071.683,"text":"會問這個問題就是2019年之後我沒有看到資料顯現就是說第一個當然如果有的話資料不給我如果沒有也顯現說今天就你知道2019年做的那個演習就很重要可見就很重要那等於是對於這一次的事件可以做一些預先的防範那請交通部來去確認像這個演習是不是在什麼樣頻率之下應該要進行可以嗎"},{"start":6072.703,"end":6100.015,"text":"我們也來如果有必要檢討它的一個頻率或一個方式也一併做檢討好那這次攻擊事件凶犯是由台北捷運M8入口進入M7連通道他用煙霧彈持刀攻擊民眾在走中山地下街到大同區的旅館那照理說聯合防災中心應該可以在監控螢幕上及時發現凶犯的犯案狀況立即因應那這一次有發生什麼實際的作用"},{"start":6102.54,"end":6127.604,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下它這裡頭我手頭上的一個資料聯合防災應變中心大概在當天的下午5點27分就接獲北捷的通報民眾有在M7的這個放置疑似的煙霧彈其實它就依照相關的程序立即啟動二級的緊急應變機制在7點28分就會通知了"},{"start":6131.025,"end":6153.472,"text":"四鐵四接一微風也就是有九個單位進駐的單位讓他們能夠立即知道這件事情然後立即採取相關的一個應變的機制然後在55分的時候他就因為他聯合應變中心他要有一個指揮官他指揮官就進駐了我有看到一個在台北車站內工作的民眾他有在吹哨留言給陳士凱部長"},{"start":6156.294,"end":6179.945,"text":"他說過去聯合防災中心常常在發布火警訊息之後又發布以上訊息為誤報的全戰廣播那這一次的攻擊事件聯合防災中心卻沒有發布火警訊息雖然北捷有廣播了一次說M1出口有民眾施放燃燒物但也沒有進一步警示戰內民眾的危險性那還有很多人認為是過去的誤報"},{"start":6181.346,"end":6208.135,"text":"這位民眾說防災中心的螢幕也沒有出現任何的功能定格在請往出口移動他說他不想指責聯合防災中心慢半拍但是希望災害發生時我們能夠確保他持續提供正確的資訊給站內工作者市長我想請教你這位在台北車站工作民眾的建議有沒有道理那聯合防災中心的應變有沒有需要檢討的地方"},{"start":6209.261,"end":6235.441,"text":"跟委員報告有關這一次的事件之後其實我們第一時間鐵道局就開始要求台鐵因為剛才特別提到它有一個聯合應變的計畫那個計畫是不是要做檢討當然這一部分還有計畫執行裡頭一定有一個通知然後如果讓訊息做一個傳播這一部分是不是在這一次不夠落實我想都會納為這次檢討的一個範圍"},{"start":6239.324,"end":6258.92,"text":"麻煩那個次長因為事實上災害發生像你們我覺得鄭民眾講得很好如果過去你的警報不夠精確經常誤報的話就產生攔來的效應事實上這次警報反而沒有說事實發揮功能這是對大家造成影響我也跟次長分享"},{"start":6260.157,"end":6282.347,"text":"剛好M8出口到中山地下街因為我平常有時候會有走路一萬步的習慣所以有時候中午我就會到台北市站吃個飯走路過去然後再走中山地下街走一小段就是從M8出口到中山地下街所以我非常能夠體會就是說民眾在走的過程當中那種不安全感"},{"start":6282.967,"end":6311.446,"text":"就是這個事件發生之後很多人都覺得自己暴露在一個重大風險當中所以我希望各個政府機關能夠精進相關的作為因為像這樣的一個所謂的無差別暴力攻擊它奪走不只是許多人的生命也破壞很多家庭的幸福那也剝奪了今天我們講用路人他在路上行走的一個安全這個拜託相關部門尤其交通部門能夠多加的一個檢討跟改進"},{"start":6313.414,"end":6338.11,"text":"謝謝委員這部分我們會來做一個通盤的一個檢討好謝謝好謝謝 謝謝委員好謝謝羅志強委員接下來請魯明哲委員魯明哲委員不在魯明哲委員現在請魯明哲委員好魯明哲委員不在我們下一位請蔡其昌委員蔡其昌委員"},{"start":6339.859,"end":6343.061,"text":"蔡奇昌委員不在 下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員謝謝主席 有請我們交通部陳彥博城次長還有我們公路局林福山林局長"},{"start":6362.324,"end":6385.759,"text":"次長跟局長我來請教我針對於整個觀光旺季跟大型賽事如何來共存這件事情我想來跟兩位來就教就是花蓮跟台東歷經去年的地震跟風災水患我相信觀光產業受到很大的一個重創"},{"start":6387.64,"end":6400.586,"text":"我們交通部這個地方也對於花東整個觀光如何去做一個振興也花了不少的一個心力那在立法院裡面不分黨派也不斷要求我們行政院投入資源來讓花東儘快來做一個復甦"},{"start":6403.627,"end":6420.998,"text":"本席在過去也多次的主張就是整個運動的觀光運動的觀光帶動地方的經濟火車的之一譬如說透過大型的路跑或自行車賽事的一個辦理帶來選手家屬或者運動賽事的追星組的一個消費的經濟我想請教的就是說"},{"start":6424.38,"end":6451.398,"text":"這個觀光旺季跟大型賽事共存的問題在今年九月有一個自由車協會原定在九月底舉辦跨越花東的一個自由車的一個賽事但是最後就因為我們公路局內部的路權審核的問題整個賽事就停辦了這就凸顯了我們目前路權管理上似乎還缺乏一套更科學跟一致的一個標準也就是說大家都怕人買"},{"start":6453.76,"end":6458.103,"text":"怕說廉價的時候,賺下去之後,地方造成民怨、塞車,大家就幹掉了。到最後呢,停辦了以後,我是覺得非常的一個可惜。那我想請教的就是說,你行政流程,你們有沒有看到行政院人事總署,在今年5到6月的時候就已經公告了。"},{"start":6476.798,"end":6497.404,"text":"公告了新版的行事曆對一天報價對一天廉價這個早都已經確定了那我們主辦單位其實人家在八月初九月要辦八月來之後協調如果說我們自己的公路局的分局在當時會議中能夠明確明確是告知說廉價期間我都可以"},{"start":6498.72,"end":6522.179,"text":"你如果憤怯地說廉價我都不愛都不愛這樣主辦單位還有應變的一個空間可是你等到九月活動當月要被告知說因為廉價的關係還要我賣不賺錢對於一場國家級跟有很多國手來參與的一個賽事來講你剩下這麼短的一個時間實在是幾乎沒有延期或調整的一個空間這影響到的是什麼"},{"start":6524.08,"end":6538.408,"text":"該報名的報名了啦 該訂房的也訂房了啦那你這個通通都早就辦好了那我們這種突襲式的把它否決掉的話你不僅去影響到選手的權益啊也損及到我們推動運動觀光的一個誠意啊那對他來講"},{"start":6540.869,"end":6564.853,"text":"这次长你就很清楚了对次长来讲的话对旅宿业者来讲的话是二次的一个伤害原来的一个房间就要空出来没有新客人去做一个地补的话那未来我们是不是有办法来更主动更提早的预警让我们在准备程序上的一个保护现在的一个保护避免类似的情况来做发生简单来做一个回应好不好"},{"start":6566.651,"end":6587.566,"text":"跟委員報告就是講到這個案子的一個部分的話基本上大概前置程序大家有一點這個誤解因為第一個部分的話就是說入權申請我們有一個入權申請的一個規定那我想這個案子所衍生出來的一個部分的話我們後續也請我們各分局去做一個檢討"},{"start":6588.587,"end":6616.506,"text":"然後也很明確跟各個所在地的這些相關體育協會有關於連續假期辦賽事這個部分的話我們這個就是很明確說明這些主要幹道都是輸運的這個部分的話在連續假期的過程當中原則上我們是不提供這個路線的我想把這樣子的一個訊息明確化之後那未來大家就比較不容易產生這個誤解"},{"start":6619.227,"end":6646.956,"text":"2026年剩下六天要跨年跨新一個年度了你去看我這我這手機一把它打開以後啊2020年有九大連假啦不關喜勞動節端午節中秋節光復節行縣紀念日這些都連假的那如果像我們今年這樣的處理的一個方式的話這個對地方衝擊會很大啦我也知道說溝通很重要但是你觀光旺季跟大型賽事你如何去做一個共存的問題"},{"start":6648.191,"end":6665.402,"text":"我們要把它否決掉就很簡單 怕人嫖我就說不要住你就好了但這個就可惜了你去看看 你去看日本你去看新加坡你看日本沖繩環自行車賽它也是秋天旅遊忘記去辦的他們的路也比我們大一點"},{"start":6666.656,"end":6681.375,"text":"人家判明有辦法做到啊比如說他算準了車隊幾分道車隊來了裁縫路車隊一過馬上放行對交通的影響他就把它壓縮到最小我們現在不是我們現在怕麻煩怕他車乾脆說全部都不準"},{"start":6682.342,"end":6701.537,"text":"這不好另外你去看新加坡你去看倫敦他們嚴格的去執行路段的一個管理那主辦單位承諾幾點幾分將道路歸還給城市選手在規定時間沒有完賽的話必須要搭上收容車確保道路準時開放給一般的民眾回頭過來看我們自己"},{"start":6702.625,"end":6724.685,"text":"可惜啦 由於對發動這樣 你這樣不行啦新加坡 日本 沖繩 你如果去過去 找時間你自己去走走看看人家就是這樣搬啊 人家做得到 我們如果做不夠 路就沒必要我們比較大條啊最輕鬆的方式就是我們去把它禁止 不能只有禁止啦高通柏林部到要下海 運動觀光 振興地方 市長不是嗎 20秒給你"},{"start":6732.176,"end":6755.293,"text":"因為還是光光我們要兼顧但是這幾個案子其實如何兼顧這個我們再來想想看因為他剛才特別提到輸運就是輸運的尖峰的路段是在哪裡可能會影響除此之外是不是可以在連續的假期如何配合來辦理等等這個我們再來想想看"},{"start":6756.053,"end":6775.001,"text":"我也知道說準備好之後大家我也知道公路局要顧安全啦警察跟公務段的同仁都很辛苦啦大家又扛責任 這我們都懂啦但是如何用比較科學化的還有去管理的一個方式來做一個兼顧啦 好不好最後我要請教一個問題就是說我給你看一下 來 你看你這個這你知道嗎"},{"start":6781.482,"end":6789.209,"text":"這個隔熱紙的這個幾%你知道嗎 黑色色的這個給你看幾%10% 這個10%這個幾% 比較清楚了喔這個20%越來越清楚了 怎麼煙光濕了 這個幾%30%這個幾%50% 越來越清楚了嘛"},{"start":6810.151,"end":6825.239,"text":"我真的有做功課這幾%70%我的意思就是說我們現在很多的業者我們要修法就是說整個隔熱紙的透光度跟安全的一個問題"},{"start":6828.241,"end":6842.836,"text":"為了隱私或者為了怕熱民眾很多人就去加裝這個隔熱紙那重點就是說我們很擔心的就是整個交通的一個安全我看去年發生在台中台中這樣的一個案例"},{"start":6844.396,"end":6848.318,"text":"台中港計程車墜海的一個事件就是說夜間大雨低能見度搞不定造成車內四個人死亡調查的結果就是擋風玻璃隔熱時可見透光率只有47.5"},{"start":6859.443,"end":6886.883,"text":"那我們交通部這個地方我們也看到這樣的一個問題但是隔日子這樣的一個漏洞我們是從2026年起才要針對新車來入法來做一個納管來做一個納管但是我比較擔心的就是說五檔不可以檢查一件而已你2026年以後新法上路日出可是這個可能看起來你們也不會去溯及回溯嘛"},{"start":6888.243,"end":6891.245,"text":"也不會回溯啊你像這樣這個美意啊你說前面的不回溯好那我們也告訴民眾說你盡量不要打到黑色色對你的安全真的是很危險的宣導我們要做啦但是新法上路以後啊你這段時間你如果沒有提出一個行政措施比較強力去做一個選擇"},{"start":6909.776,"end":6913.198,"text":"我也有些人像現在有些人賣新車就跟你說了快賭 賭五十十或是我就鹹車鹹水了鹹水 我怎麼開始來賭你以後要怎麼處理"},{"start":6925.89,"end":6949.978,"text":"跟委員報告就是說在這個今年6月30號這個公務局那個指引出來之後那確實我們了解有一些地區性的經銷商有這樣的部分但是在同時我們各區建立所我請我們各區建立所同時拜訪在地的經銷商去跟他們講這樣的觀念所以現行各廠牌的經銷商基本上大概都配合交通部的一個這個政策"},{"start":6950.698,"end":6955.762,"text":"在其實現行法規還沒有強制實施之前在這個因為很多新車都是透過業帶這樣子幫忙裝那他們在競銷體系裡面就是透過這個業帶都這個提供給民眾說以後前檔應該要裝70然後提供合格就是說目前有這樣子產品讓他們來做安裝我聽你的詢問我就知道你也已經發現到這樣的一個問題"},{"start":6975.296,"end":6979.74,"text":"那既然發現問題以後,我希望我們公路總局這個地方,我們交通部這個地方,政府還是多做一點啦,也是要跟他們說,我這個真的是為了安全,你進來這裡,你不要傻傻的去做你的行銷的一個借口啦,"},{"start":6991.889,"end":6998.995,"text":"加強去給他宣導甚至於你們應該有更多的官方的一個說明啊或者業者的一個教育啊的一個措施出來你也要跟經銷商來做一個合作啊大家做回來啊如果沒有啊我都很擔心你說一般民眾"},{"start":7008.382,"end":7028.243,"text":"我走路我穿得比較好隔熱的一個效果會更好我為了隱私我為什麼要戴好鞋子你剛發布這樣的一個我們修訂這樣的一個法令以後以後你那個整個檢查或者去取締的能量又少就會把這個美意打折"},{"start":7030.488,"end":7042.515,"text":"圖選到的人 你如果不先做這個算命 民怨又起來啦所以這一點我希望我們交通部 我們公共組織有更多的一個作為 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝莊瑞雄委員接下來我們請圖全級委員"},{"start":7057.162,"end":7083.657,"text":"好 謝謝主席那先請我們高工局我們陳文瑞局長陳局長請是 委員好局長 我想跟你討論一下那我們國道一號休息站啟用三年以來其實也發生多起的死亡車禍那今年年初還發生一件很嚴重造成四死四重傷那針對這一部分"},{"start":7084.577,"end":7111.845,"text":"外界一直質疑說設計不良不知道我們局長針對這部分內容有什麼說明跟委員報告就是說原來的設計我們有去檢核過是符合公路路線的設計規範那不過就是說因為它確實就是說在陽梅休息站因為它剛好在五陽高架的末端就是說我們這個五陽高架在最後下來以後那它大概就是說在那個地方它的線型包括"},{"start":7112.245,"end":7138.99,"text":"平面跟高度坡度都有做一些變化所以我們大概就是說請那個進入到休息站那個要減速的其實有一些的車輛確實是並沒有減速所以我們大概就是說也做過一些這個整個請相關的專家學者運安會有給我們一些建議所以我們大概做了一些修正那目前在12月10號我們已經在這個陽梅休息站的整個的一個線型我們已經修正完畢了"},{"start":7141.109,"end":7166.187,"text":"對 因為你們現在有去做動線的調整可是現在反而動線調整之後我不知道局長知不知道現在已經造成我們那個路段下校前路那邊整個回堵造成大塞車我有去看跟委員報告因為那個地方其實它剛好就是這一個五陽高架的末端五陽高架就是說高架段是兩個車道然後主線是三個車道"},{"start":7167.368,"end":7194.569,"text":"我們現在高速公路局正在做的這個是楊頭段 楊梅道頭份也是從楊梅休息站是起點所以它目前就是說它其實本來就是從高架的兩車道跟主線的三車道最後要併入主線的三車道所以那個地方本來其實就是會有點塞我們現在因為就是說我們的楊頭段目前已經在進行設計跟發包作業了所以交違的部分要做一些調整"},{"start":7194.989,"end":7212.191,"text":"可是之前當然因為國道1號你們要去解決國道1號現在之前常常發生車禍的問題做一些動線的調整可是你為了解決那個問題做動線調整之後反而造成我們地方這個大賽車沒有別的方法你這個變成"},{"start":7213.833,"end":7238.126,"text":"為了解決一個問題然後造成另外一個問題是跟委員報告我們也有做一些相關的調整因為其實以前大概就是說這個車流的部分大家覺得說就是那一段的車流量特別的高那現在做一些調整的話其實我們大概在中壢的轉接道那個地方其實對於就是說下游的主線跟楊梅這個舞陽高架楊梅那一段"},{"start":7239.266,"end":7265.92,"text":"車流的擁塞的狀況我們會做一個資訊的發佈也就是說讓民眾知道說它從中壢轉接道到底是要走平面的三個車道還是高架的兩個車道比較快另外也跟委員報告我們已經有做一些開放路間的這一個時段有提早開放因為它的尖峰的時段其實它擁塞就是稍微有提早所以我們把這一個譬如說陽梅休息站到湖口"},{"start":7267.021,"end":7285.622,"text":"路肩的開放時段從早上7點提早到6點目前的擁塞的狀況其實委員有提到是譬如說我們剛開始動線調整的時候它的擁塞長度比較長最近已經在縮了已經有在縮了這一個我們會持續觀察如果說能夠再做一些改善的我們會再做改善"},{"start":7285.922,"end":7307.895,"text":"我是建議我們還是要去做一個會刊不然這個問題其實本來一直都沒有這個嚴重塞車的問題因為你們動線去調整現在地方民眾都怨聲載道所以我覺得我們應該要去做個會刊不然你針對路肩開放只是針對尖峰時段大量車流的時候做一個疏解那畢竟不是一個常態"},{"start":7308.695,"end":7323.583,"text":"是不是應該要有更好的一個解決的方法委員如果辦會堪我們再跟委員做一個現場的一個說明因為有做相關的一個改善目前的擁塞的這個情形有改善因為前面的車流大家可能比較就是說不習慣就是說這個動線的調整"},{"start":7327.144,"end":7349.609,"text":"我們經過一段時間的宣導應該會做一些改變我們希望透過會刊來找一個真正能夠長遠解決的辦法不然你為了解決國道一號休息室案造成我們其他民眾上下班嚴重的困擾是好 這部分我們在會刊來協調解決沒問題 謝謝委員好 謝謝主席好 謝謝圖宣吉委員接下來我們請王宏威委員"},{"start":7358.072,"end":7363.904,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請一下陳次長交通部陳次長"},{"start":7369.774,"end":7392.646,"text":"委員好好 次長早剛才有特別講到有關於就是我看到民進黨的吳思堯委員講到有關於總預算的審查那麼另外就是還有我們這一次就是我們立法院有修正財化法那次長知道我們為什麼要再次的修正財化法嗎"},{"start":7395.935,"end":7419.981,"text":"我想那個裁判的話大概就是市長 我特別要告訴你因為我們自己身為區域的委員我自己也曾經當過多年的台北市議員我深知就是尤其在地方的交通建設非常非常重要我們剛才圖全集委員也特別談到有關於地方的交通問題"},{"start":7421.221,"end":7441.441,"text":"而我們在這一次就是說之前修正財化法之後那麼各縣市尤其都會區的這個補助款特別是這計畫型補助款尤其是捷運的部分受到極大極大的衝擊我相信次長應該心知肚明"},{"start":7442.122,"end":7460.192,"text":"因為在這個第一次的財化法修正之後行政院用一紙公文就直接把非常多的縣市的捷運的補助款一下子大砍特砍比如說我們台北市我們台北市一下子總共砍了650億的捷運補助款它的刪減幅度高達75%"},{"start":7467.936,"end":7491.236,"text":"新北市也是刪減了90億元刪減幅度達到72%台中市最離譜台中市捷運藍線要開工了竟然突然告訴他們由原來合定的42億元的補助款一下子只剩下2億只剩下零頭"},{"start":7493.238,"end":7500.263,"text":"刪減幅度高達96%同樣的高雄不是只有藍營執政縣市高雄的捷運也被刪除了103億元之多幅度也高達75%就是在桃園也是一樣軌道建設也刪減了69億元就是因為我們在整個的這個補助款的部分在"},{"start":7521.741,"end":7544.082,"text":"行政院在完全沒有尊重地方也沒有跟地方討論之下一下子大山特山所以這就是為什麼我們要二次的去修正才化法這個跟地方的建設有極度的相關我們都知道這個尤其這個捷運實際上各個都會區都在發展所以我覺得"},{"start":7545.163,"end":7570.809,"text":"作為一個區域的委員我們沒有辦法看到以我來講我台北市的委員我怎麼能看到一下子一紙公文就把我台北市的捷運的補助款砍掉650億我相信其他縣市也是如此好 那今天我想跟那個市長就教一件事前一陣子發生一個非常悲劇同樣的我們一直希望防堵酒駕"},{"start":7572.009,"end":7580.305,"text":"但是呢 在前一陣子台南發生了一個把是少女 是一個女清潔隊員被酒駕撞死"},{"start":7581.636,"end":7600.994,"text":"酒駕的問題事實上我們從1999年開始修法把酒駕入法之後其實我們一直不停的提高它的刑度也把一些累犯的認定把它做放寬可是你可以看到就在前不久前又有一個女清潔隊員"},{"start":7604.079,"end":7614.025,"text":"被酒駕撞死 真的讓人很難過而我們現在看到的就是取締的酒駕累犯的件數居高不下"},{"start":7615.188,"end":7641.906,"text":"比例也是一直都很高啊還是年年在創新高所以我們到底有沒有窮盡一切的辦法去防毒酒駕特別是防毒這些酒駕的累犯我們在修法 我剛剛講我們現在也把這個酒駕這個致死最高可以判處無期徒刑這刑度其實也拉高了好 那我現在要跟次長再討論一件事情"},{"start":7643.247,"end":7664.219,"text":"過去 這個最早是從我們台北市開始討論就是因為很多的人喝完酒之後心存僥倖那我們現在行度也提高了但是可能對很多人無感他也沒有感受所以在最早是我們台北市開始提出來我記得當時還是何志偉當議員的時候他說這個酒駕就讓他去洗大體"},{"start":7671.225,"end":7698.06,"text":"就讓他去洗大庭讓他看了之後他可以心生畏懼不要再心存僥倖不要再成為酒駕的累犯所以我想市長我想請教一下我們在各縣市有一些縣市其實這看這個檢察官檢察官有些真的就讓他去有的就讓他去看大庭有的讓他去洗大庭"},{"start":7699.685,"end":7726.93,"text":"當然有些這種社會服務勞動我覺得不足以讓他感覺到畏懼他去尊重一個生命讓他知道他如果在這樣子一個心存僥倖然後喝酒有的喝一夜你可能就是撞死撞死一個少女撞死一個家裡負擔所有大大小小老老少少家計的一個父親一個母親都可能"},{"start":7728.143,"end":7756.503,"text":"所以我們怎麼樣能夠讓這個酒駕累犯不要再增加了我們看到這個數字觸目驚心所以市長在這個部分酒駕的部分我們還有沒有可以精進的地方我想跟委員報告有關酒駕這件事情其實是各界都一直很痛心而且認為應該要具體改善酒駕的一個處罰其實剛才委員特別提到其實它分兩塊一個是刑法一個是行政法"},{"start":7757.023,"end":7768.972,"text":"委員特別提到說刑法的部分是不是會太輕等等的這是刑法上但是就行政法上來講的話如果委員可以去看它是所有處罰條例裡頭罰款最高而且是無上限的一個罰款"},{"start":7772.715,"end":7799.277,"text":"至於說累犯的這部分我們在累犯他要重考的時候我們也要經過一定的一個酒駕毒飲防治之後受過相關的訓練然後要裝酒精鎖以後他才可以去重考才可以取得駕照所以有關這樣的我們大概就是窮境行政機關的相關的作為我剛才講說我們就把它變成不要說各縣市或各地檢署不同的他們的方式"},{"start":7802.279,"end":7812.055,"text":"就真的就是讓這些酒駕有些累犯真的就讓他去洗大體讓他感受到他對生命要有一定的尊重我覺得酒駕累犯實在是"},{"start":7815.779,"end":7837.584,"text":"我跟委員報告一下有關刑法的部分當然我們可以跟法務部再來協調請他們看如何來有比較具體而且讓民眾有強烈感受的部分但是有關在酒駕要做道安講習的部分我們其實有些監理機關也是在殯儀館上來舉行的來辦理的放到殯儀館我覺得道安講習其實已經講都講破嘴了"},{"start":7844.765,"end":7857.312,"text":"但是我們三不五時還是會發生這種悲劇只是說我們讓我們這個社會能不能大家有這個意識好不好好 這個我們再繼續來加強好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝王宏威委員接下來我們請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員"},{"start":7871.671,"end":7891.562,"text":"鄭正全委員不在我們下一位請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在我們下一位請游皓委員游皓委員游皓委員不在下一位我們請林倩琦委員"},{"start":7901.075,"end":7907.578,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們先請一下交通部次長好 次長 陳次長 請謝謝 本席今天針對有關於海洋的還有高瓴的部分想要跟次長這邊來就教有一些基本的資訊我簡單講一下近幾年我們這個向海致敬的政策在遊艇的船舶停位目前要提升到"},{"start":7929.507,"end":7947.98,"text":"這個要提升到1600席大概成長幅度是4成本席也非常的支持在這個過程當中跟航港局局長這邊也都有一些update也很感謝所以整個中央預算也不少3.27億地方預算大概有一些配合款2億2400萬"},{"start":7953.763,"end":7974.251,"text":"這個期程從2012年到今年我想就目前這個最新的訊息跟次長這邊請教截至去年10月28號我們的船舶停位大概有1225個距離我們今年1600席的政策目標有一些差距我想了解一下因為這個是我們針對網路上的一個訊息"},{"start":7975.211,"end":8002.579,"text":"那不知道說目前我們在1600個這樣的一個今年的目標我們目前的達成率或者是達成的博位目前大概是多少我簡單跟委員報告以後然後詳細的情形再請葉局長來做說明就我手頭上的資料大概今年114年底大概會增加到1437席然後1437然後到了115年大概會增加到1537席"},{"start":8004.825,"end":8030.552,"text":"所以是原本今年要達到一千六嗎還是說什麼時候要達到一千六那個一千六是公委員報告一千六並不是這一期的計畫的目標所以我們到一四到一四三七已經達到原來本期本期就到一五年剛剛次長報告的一五年會到一五三七已經達到原來原來原核定計畫預定設定的目標"},{"start":8033.213,"end":8052.704,"text":"那如果是會達到目標可能你們網站上幫我們更新跟確認一下因為我們看到1600然後看到現在大概1200多那我們有比較關心說對不對那個落差跟或許你們有期程上的一些細節那可以在網站上再做一下確認這樣我們就不用常常要麻煩局長來跟我們確認目前最新的一個訊息"},{"start":8053.504,"end":8057.829,"text":"好那接下來這個先前有跟局長這邊來討論那局長這邊應該也是很正面的這個支持也就是說我們目前在這個全國的專屬博區全國的遊艇的專屬博區目前大概會要提升到24個那"},{"start":8070.683,"end":8089.717,"text":"目前大概有20個可是目前已有的東部是零所以我也有跟局長這邊來討論過那麼次長在東部我們說向海致敬那真正那個洋大概是海的最大的一個量體所以在東部我們靠近太平洋可是靠近太平洋的地方這樣子博位的缺席"},{"start":8090.217,"end":8105.618,"text":"似乎對城鄉的發展還有對原鄉的一個匱乏還是有一點欠缺是不是市長這邊我們在東部專屬博味這邊是不是也可以跟我們一些承諾讓我們在東部真的也可以有這樣一個博味的開發專屬遊艇的這個博味"},{"start":8109.545,"end":8134.257,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下這一部分我們大概因為剛才委員像東部所以像台東縣我們大概有補助他做一些整體的一個規劃然後後續也會補助該府在金樽漁港個別來辦理是不是有可行的一個研究那研究了以後如果可行我們再看後續如何來予以協助"},{"start":8135.836,"end":8158.264,"text":"這個部分是不是可以請你們主動積極的來做一些推動因為整個東部都沒有也是還蠻匱乏的其實在洋區裡面跑的船也是很多其實像我們在南島語族的話很多時候他們來的時候都是在東部所以可能東部這邊我們要更積極的來促進地方政府在專屬博位這邊請你們積極協助好不好"},{"start":8161.386,"end":8180.184,"text":"接下來還是遊艇跟整個基本設施的一個問題因為本席也常常參加船賽親身都感受到遊艇基本設施的匱乏基礎資訊我在這邊不多說了可是我們講高雄好了前一陣子我也在高雄比賽目前有的200多個博位大部"},{"start":8182.566,"end":8201.326,"text":"公有的大概都滿薄私有的大概也接近了七成民營的接近七成可是有一個很大的問題就是柴油柴油的供給沒有辦法在遊艇的停靠處真正的來支援你知道很多包括遊艇或者是非動力的船它在進港出港的時候碼頭這邊都需要柴油"},{"start":8204.75,"end":8232.148,"text":"那柴油的這個加擠站的這個不足大家常常都要進市區去買柴油然後再回來加這個其實是也有一點危險那真的對於我們整個觀光發展也是不足的那目前呢這個柴油沒有然後汽油站的規劃也很匱乏那麼地方政府是有評估在中雲跟柯子寮漁港這邊增設一些條件那不知道你們這個部分是不是可以協助這個柴油的這個補給跟汽油補給站的一個增加"},{"start":8235.611,"end":8256.112,"text":"是 報告委員 針對高雄這邊這個港區因為全國都要處理啦 只是說因為我住在高雄所以會 自己也都在那邊參加比賽所以很直接的會碰觸到這個基本設施不足的這個問題是的 是的 那各位報告 的確如同委員所垂詢的高雄的博味也是現在南部的重點"},{"start":8257.473,"end":8273.26,"text":"我想針對委員這邊提醒的部分我們會盡快的深入去了解現在包括幾個重要的博區在加油的服務上我們怎麼樣能夠滿足遊艇業者還有玩家他們使用的需求"},{"start":8274.52,"end":8292.286,"text":"對 這個很直接的啦因為不是每因為你們有規定在碼頭內一定要用動力嘛那那個油就很重要所以汽油站的這個增設然後柴油的這個設施麻煩你們在做這個基本設施的時候也要考量好的然後另外就是那個盥洗跟這個維修等等的設施也應該考量進去啦"},{"start":8293.146,"end":8314.677,"text":"那在這個國外的大部分這樣的遊艇碼頭或者是博味它其實都會有岸上的這個基礎盥洗的這個設施那在台灣目前基本上都沒有那你不可能要求我們都去向那個很貴很貴的某一些碼頭裡面去成為會員這一般民眾不可能嘛所以這個部分是不是也應該考量進去那這對於未來不僅是在國內或者是國際間"},{"start":8317.859,"end":8333.871,"text":"那它應該是最基本的一個條件這邊先直接做一個建議就是維修還有盥洗的設施這在我們基礎設施上應該做一個處理接下來是個高齡我簡單提一下去年因為三峽發生了這個重大車禍這車禍引起社會關注"},{"start":8337.193,"end":8355.335,"text":"但是後來我們這個政府的一個回應就是那請高齡者現在不要開車然後你們就有一些什麼無障礙公車、幸福巴士、US計程車然後現在還在研議高齡的TPAS但是這些措施都是很好的但是很重要就是說高齡者會選擇自己開車重點是點到點"},{"start":8358.118,"end":8382.18,"text":"還有即時性跟移動的自由度因為我們也漸漸步入高齡了然後如果我沒有辦法達到我上面所講的這些要求或民眾達不到這些要求我想對大家的一個方便性其實還是距離蠻遠的所以是不是你們在考量這個部分說要收回那個駕照我們剛才講的點到點即時性還有移動自由度在你們考量的這幾個政策"},{"start":8384.202,"end":8407.374,"text":"內容當中你們是不是可以把這個細緻的部分再考量進去這個部分我跟委員報告一下有關於就是說如果說這個未來70歲以上自動腳圍駕駛執照那我們會提供這個公共運輸搭乘回饋的那個部分那這個運輸上各種運具都可以使用那委員這邊有提到就是說計程車補助的部分"},{"start":8407.774,"end":8433.801,"text":"我的重點就是點到點還有移動的自由度它畢竟沒有像我們自己開車的那麼自由嘛那你們現在考量這個東西你現在把大家私有的東西收回要大家都做公共交通工具可是呢私有跟公共交通工具中間的一個落差那我剛才指出的這個點到點即時性跟移動自由度那個是不是在你們的政策目標方向也要把它考量進去而不是說發生了一個個案結果你們這個全體"},{"start":8435.101,"end":8452.409,"text":"本來沒有問題的人到最後大家通常要一起來應對你們針對個案所處理的一些手段但是卻失去了我剛才講的對高齡人口來講有一點歧視的沒辦法達到我剛才講的那三個重點這個部分我跟委員報告一下這個高齡換照並不是要禁止高齡者駕車原則上體格 身體機能OK的都可以繼續開車"},{"start":8462.794,"end":8478.071,"text":"那如果說因為本身的這個因素沒辦法開車或是自動繳為這個叫做不想開車的那這個部分我們分都會區還有比較偏向的部分我們大概有兩套這個公共運輸的系統因為在都會區原則上公共運輸比較發達比較沒有問題"},{"start":8479.853,"end":8493.463,"text":"那在偏鄉那個部分的話那我們現在在193個這個鄉鎮然後總共也有495條這個幸福巴士那這個幸福巴士基本上就是可以預約就是一個提供點到點這樣子的一個服務那針對這個部分的話我們會跟各縣市地方政府會再持續來做這個"},{"start":8498.306,"end":8519.917,"text":"對 本席還是要幫偏鄉跟原鄉說幾句話啦我們知道有一些公車路線其實有一些地方大概一天只有一班或者是兩天只有一班有的時候更有勝者會這樣子那未來像這樣子的如果有更多的長者透過公共交通工具要來搭乘的話那我想這個部分尤其在偏鄉跟原鄉請你們多做一些考量好不好就我講那三個點好"},{"start":8522.338,"end":8534.864,"text":"謝謝最後一個很簡單應該是高速公路局這是一個個案很小的事情但是我想說這邊也跟你們請命本席都會去參加一些運動的活動上一次到南邊我們這樣講好了你們有一個"},{"start":8540.346,"end":8568.08,"text":"鐵人你們常常會用到國道我想各地方政府有一些山鐵或者是跑步他會用到國道是不是可以麻煩你們要封路的時候你們可不可以在前面找一點的地方讓大家知道說接下來下一個交流道就是要封路了要不然你們一封好幾個一直封我看那天有好多的本行因為也是被封道了後面的那些沒有住在當地他要去比賽的人他被你們這樣一封他會趕不上那個比賽"},{"start":8568.82,"end":8586.39,"text":"所以這邊請命一下是不是碰到這樣的情形除了我相信在網路上你們會有公告那但是呢不是每個人都是參賽者或者是不是每個參賽者都有注意到這個部分所以當我們開到要交流到你直接封下來然後一封後面全部都封大家沒有地方跑就是那個"},{"start":8587.19,"end":8601.342,"text":"可能指路的能量也不是大家都做得起來所以是不是請你們這邊在高工局封路的時候做一些考量看怎麼樣讓大家能夠及時的到達賽場然後也不會造成太多的困擾好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":8605.748,"end":8608.469,"text":"好 謝謝林倩琦委員的詢答接下來這剩剛剛我們司法跟交通聯席的全部都是暖身而已啦現在重量級的壓軸來 蔡議員委員來做詢答"},{"start":8631.721,"end":8638.607,"text":"好 感謝教委那我們是不是有請我們交通部陳次長請交通部陳次長"},{"start":8643.114,"end":8648.718,"text":"市長 想說用這個機會跟你討論一下現在就是交通部有一個北迴之巔的計畫那這個計畫當然就是針對北迴歸線北迴歸線整個觀光的一個軸帶"},{"start":8661.846,"end":8676.774,"text":"那事實上以這個觀光軸帶來說阿里山就是在我們北回歸線有經過的地方所以未來整個北回之間的一個觀光的一個計畫阿館處會扮演一個很重要的角色你也知道說這次丹納斯颱風再來0728事實上是讓整個大阿里山區的觀光"},{"start":8683.357,"end":8684.158,"text":"後來阿館處有辦了一個省旅行的計畫"},{"start":8700.437,"end":8701.458,"text":"阿里山小火車"},{"start":8721.207,"end":8748.058,"text":"接下來阿貫住有一個很重要的使命因為我們知道林鐵處農業部林鐵處他會在他的阿里山小火車他要開發區間車所以這個區間車以後阿里山火車不用一直在外面跟其他企業一起去阿里山因為那些車次就比較少區間車有可能會在里山或是在鐵甲山直接到阿里山的本基歐山這樣的話比較頻繁地跑"},{"start":8749.959,"end":8767.412,"text":"可以創造說大阿里山區點對點的一個旅遊所以我要跟市長說就是說在發展這樣的一個區間車的時候阿館阿館處應該要積極的配合把這些區間車然後他所帶來的一個效益阿館處應該把它發揮到最大"},{"start":8768.795,"end":8784.417,"text":"這個沒有問題吧是 我想沒有問題我想委員關切的我們會轉達給阿館處請他積極的配合這個林鐵來做相關的一個行銷把它包裝起來讓更多人使用這個曲線車然後在阿里山沿線做相關的觀光旅遊好"},{"start":8784.958,"end":8804.792,"text":"那接下來就是說因為北回支店嘛一百億要推動觀光喔一百億喔四年來執行那我覺得阿館處現在就是有一個使命就是說整個大阿里山區的一個觀光我覺得告示牌的部分就是說那一些跟大家介紹的部分事實上"},{"start":8805.532,"end":8827.366,"text":"外國語言不足所以這也要大家關注講一下為了要拓展國際的觀光路線尤其現在本紀是很多國外的觀光客背包客會來本紀但是他來的時候是基本上他們看到的一些告示還是存在中文 少少的英文"},{"start":8828.146,"end":8840.746,"text":"那我認為如果大阿里山區要來發展這個國際觀光要開拓國際觀光的話至少要仿造日本嘛 四國語言哪四國 中文 英文 日文 韓文"},{"start":8842.458,"end":8862.809,"text":"至少這四國語言的一個告示這是要具備的 好不好好 再來 既然我剛才有說嘛大阿里山區的北圍之巔這100個事實上我們在這一次我看到啦嘉義的部分就只放在阿館處可是嘉義大阿里山區要有大坡 專門水庫喔專門水庫耶 還有像中坡"},{"start":8866.253,"end":8873.633,"text":"這叫做希拉雅風景管理處但是希拉雅風景管理處在北迴之巔計畫看起來都放在台南"},{"start":8875.334,"end":8899.842,"text":"抓這部分沒放在街上喔我們知道整個征溫水庫這個大埔的一個觀光也是很重要啊那都是大理山窟啊都是北回歸線直接經過的地方所以事實上我要跟次長說啦斯拉雅這個風景管理處還是要在北回之巔裡面對於推廣中埔大埔的觀光還是要肩負它的一個任務在"},{"start":8901.342,"end":8918.813,"text":"縱使在北回之間的計畫裡面現在看起來已經沒有在裡面那至少在本預算的部分我也希望交通部要支持他們尤其中埔現在正在做溫泉的開發那溫泉的開發現在也已經跟中友來溝通由中友來協助做專探基本上"},{"start":8919.733,"end":8936.228,"text":"目前看起來都非常的樂觀那如果這一個中埔的溫泉開發完成哇 這不得了耶這會是台灣距離市區最近的一個溫泉的一個風景區它才這樣 由於我們現在我們現在目標的分數這裡去介紹我來說15分之一以下"},{"start":8941.775,"end":8950.347,"text":"去嘉義市所以以後嘉義市的人如果週末要泡溫泉以後嘉義市出發到中坡15分鐘以來九這是真的有夠好的地方所以這部分還是請市長"},{"start":8957.015,"end":8984.798,"text":"今天 但是拜託兩件事一個阿館處 一個斯拉雅風景管理處這兩個寶肥 你都要向他交代不管他有沒有在北回之巔的計畫裡面我們都希望交通部這邊好好的來推廣我們整個大阿里山區的一個觀光好不好好啊 委員報告我的北回之巔當然就是在預算裡頭如果沒有的話其實他們也有相關的公務預算或基金我會來交代他們要一併來做考量"},{"start":8986.47,"end":9002.695,"text":"好 所以市長這要記得喔要給我們大力推動一下好不好整個現在觀光我們整個阿里山湖觀光現在回來了所以現在高中部這記得喔這現在你們在錄的啦稅有好過的啦稅有好過的建設就是趕快趕快趕快做是是是好 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":9007.356,"end":9024.691,"text":"好 謝謝蔡議委員覺得準備好準備要做管定完我想這個對於地方尤其是我們交通部發展觀光確實也非常重要我們請次長也謝謝次長這樣的一個很明確的去答覆"},{"start":9026.593,"end":9028.315,"text":"其實你現在自己叫做農業工商大縣後來讓農業科技變觀光大縣這個大家都樂於期待來 我們今天的"},{"start":9043.142,"end":9068.176,"text":"詢答 所有登記委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢的時候要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本聯席會委員林俊憲 游皓 蔡其昌 程樹悅黃建豪 魯明哲所提書面質詢均列入記錄 刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來做答覆"},{"start":9071.838,"end":9097.232,"text":"那現在我們進行討論事項請議事人員一併宣讀討論事項三案的提案條文如果有收到修正動議請一併來做宣讀宣讀以後我們要來主案進行討論那為利於討論我們審查法案的時候就請我們主要列席的機關代表一致主席來正前方首長席的位置就座我們現在請宣讀條文"},{"start":9099.364,"end":9122.794,"text":"請參閱本次聯席會關係文書討論事項第一案交通部航港局組織法第六條第一項序文未修正第一款第二款分別修正如下一以交通事業人員任用條例審定有案之佐計以上限職人員於中華民國一百十八年九月十四日前得准用交通事業人員與交通行政人員相互轉任資格及年資提取辦法"},{"start":9123.694,"end":9127.336,"text":"2.以交通事業人員任用條例審定有案之性質事及人員得依原適用法令規定獲取的高一資位之資格調任本局其他職務第二項第三項分別修正如下"},{"start":9145.586,"end":9164.105,"text":"本法修正實行前置交通事業港務人員身資考試自中華民國117年9月15日以後不再辦理第一項是用原法令規定人員得參加交通事業港務人員身資考試改掉本局其他職務時與中華民國118年9月14日前準用二類人員轉任辦法規定辦理"},{"start":9165.846,"end":9193.511,"text":"第四項第五項未修正第六項修正如下本法實行前原交通部港港局依官務人員人事條例審定有案之限職官務人員於中華民國一百十八年九月十四日前得依原經審定有案之官等職等官稱官階縫及換續公務人員相當官職等縫及至其退休撫恤事項處以公務人員退休自檢撫恤法規定辦理外另得於則依之領之原則下"},{"start":9194.691,"end":9208.849,"text":"一 原適用規定加發退休金及撫恤金自期限界滿地日起繼續適用原法令規定者得調任本局其他職務討論事項第二案交通部高速公路局高速公路局組織法第七條"},{"start":9211.082,"end":9237.643,"text":"第一項 第一款 第二款分別修正如下一 以交通事業人員任用條例審理有案之所及以上限職人員於中華民國一百十三年六月十八日前 得准用交通事業人員與交通行政人員相互轉任資格及年資提取辦法 括弧以下簡稱二列人員轉任辦法 辦理轉任或繼續使用原法令規定 自其限界滿地日期繼續使用原法令規定者得貂任本局及所屬機關其他職務"},{"start":9238.604,"end":9252.905,"text":"二 以交通事業人員任用條例審定有案之限職事蹟人員得依原適用法令規定或依取得高一自衛之資格調任本局及所屬機關其他職務第三款未修正其餘各項同先行條文"},{"start":9254.209,"end":9274.775,"text":"考論事項第三案交通部公路局組織法第七條除第一項第一款及第二款分別修正如下一 以交通事業人員任用條例審定有案之所及以上現職人員於中華民國一百十三年六月十八日前得准用交通事業人員與交通行政人員相互轉任資格及年資提取辦法"},{"start":9275.735,"end":9298.799,"text":"以下簡稱二類人員轉任辦法辦理轉任或繼續使用原法令規定自其現屆滿例日期繼續使用原法令者的貂刃本局及其他及所屬機關購其他職務二 以交通事業人員任用條例審定有案之限職市級人員得依原使用法令規定獲取的高一次位之資格貂刃本局及所屬機關購其他職務其餘各項同現行條文"},{"start":9303.511,"end":9316.101,"text":"繼續宣讀修正動議部分共一件討論事項第二案修正動議一第七條立法說明修正文字檢參閱書面資料提案人李坤澤等三人宣讀完畢"},{"start":9320.473,"end":9338.604,"text":"我們條文及修正動議已經宣讀完畢我們現在來進行討論討論事項第一案就是審查李昆哲委員等19人凝聚的交通部航港局組織法第6條的條文修正草案"},{"start":9339.964,"end":9351.012,"text":"因為今天只一條而已,是不是我們今天省略掉大體討論就直接進入主條來審查我們在場委員大家都同意第六條就是"},{"start":9360.785,"end":9382.203,"text":"我們現在繼續來逐條討論本案的修正案,只有一條而已。第六條的部分,為了一致性,我們也將立法說明中的生簽來修正。那個生,就一個生,全部把它改掉了,都是改成那裡邊那裡。"},{"start":9384.085,"end":9392.447,"text":"耳朵大家看一下它一個聲底下一個圖全部說明裡面我們文字性就把它改的一致那請問各位委員有沒有要發言來表示意見那各位委員就條文的部分有沒有要來做補充提案委員有沒有要補充說明"},{"start":9415.899,"end":9424.003,"text":"如果沒有意見 機關這邊有沒有要補充說明我相信今天都溝通得很完整機關也沒有意見那我們就照案通過我們第六條條文修正草案我們就照案通過"},{"start":9439.496,"end":9452.314,"text":"本案的主條我們都已處理完畢來做以下的宣告本案審查完略拟據審查報告提請院會來公決本案是不是要是否交由黨團來協商"},{"start":9454.775,"end":9458.458,"text":"本案就不需交由党团协商那院会讨论的时候"},{"start":9484.775,"end":9484.935,"text":"本案修正"},{"start":9502.322,"end":9523.023,"text":"是修正案 只有一條那李昆澤委員三人所提的修正案那是不是我們就條文照案通過然後立法說明的修正照委員李昆澤等三人所提修正案通過沒意見的話沒意見我們就通過"},{"start":9526.325,"end":9547.228,"text":"那本案的逐條均已處理完畢來做以下的宣告本案審查完略領據審查報告提醒院會公決那本案是否交由黨團協商那就本案就不須交由黨團協商那院會討論的時候由莊昭及委員瑞雄出席做說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語"},{"start":9547.628,"end":9567.912,"text":"致用於授權主席跟議事人員來做整理那討論事項第三案審查委員李昆澤等18年領據交通部公路局組織法第7條條文修正草案那請問在場委員因為條文只有一條我們就省略大提討論直接進入主條審查OK 好OK 可以"},{"start":9578.624,"end":9591.688,"text":"我們審查李昆澤等委員等18人 凝聚的交通部公路局組織法第7條的條文修正案在場委員 我們請翁昭偉來發言"},{"start":9596.789,"end":9625.817,"text":"好 謝謝主席其實本席對於這次交通部所提出的三個法條的修正案我沒有意見但是我還是希望就是說交通部能夠講得更清楚因為在我們之前讀你們的相關條文的時候其實本來就有產生一個誤會認為說這是不是可以准許未來讓滋味制的同仁可以轉任到公務人員的健檢委任制對 那這部分是不是可以請你們再清楚表達應該不是吧"},{"start":9626.637,"end":9643.838,"text":"不是 然後同時呢這未來是等於說仍然是在自衛制的這個制度底下然後讓他們可以去調到不同的單位不同的職位 對就仍然是維持在自衛制裡面所以不會影響到其他公務人員的"},{"start":9645.059,"end":9659.364,"text":"權益 對 我只是想說就是讓大家就是在確認這件事情然後避免以後造成誤會好 那以上我們有好 謝謝翁小玲召委詢問說明的機關說明非常清楚"},{"start":9659.884,"end":9664.771,"text":"那我們第七條就為了一致性將立法說明中的升遷我們全部都把它修正為升遷不要一次一次升 其他一次不一樣就全部均修正為升遷我們就照案通過"},{"start":9680.289,"end":9707.87,"text":"本案主條均已處理完畢 作以下宣告本案審查完畢 擬拒審查報告提請院會公決本案是不是交由黨團協商本案就不需要交由黨團協商院會討論的時候由莊召集委員瑞雄出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席跟議事人員來做整理"},{"start":9713.147,"end":9734.665,"text":"我在場收到我們審發會委員的質詢我們就列入公報記錄那我們議程所列的事項都已經處理完畢我們本次的會議就到此結束還有聯席還要多加快來 上會 謝謝大家謝謝委員 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"17148","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17148","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d6f793b294c43507070dac74ff5911ae03fa04411479d882a058ead7e0c2e17b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二）委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五）委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八）委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九）委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一）委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二）委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三）委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六）委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七）委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八）委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九）委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二）委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（二十四）委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二十五）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（二十六）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（二十七）委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（二十八）委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（二十九）委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（三十）委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（三十一）委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（三十二）委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（三十三）委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（三十四）委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（三十五）委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案\n二、審查\n（一）委員顏寬恒等18人擬具「校園飲食均衡及健康促進法草案」案。\n（二）委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-24T08:37:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T10:39:00+08:00","duration":7313,"影片長度":"02:01:53","委員發言時間":"08:37:07 - 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宣讀上次會議一事錄決定一事錄確定二 國家科學及技術委員會政務副主任委員林法正列席就從福衛八號成功升空我國太空產業發展科研推動與人才培育策略進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1560.339,"end":1587.811,"text":"本次議程有柯志溫委員等17人提出質詢均經國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員林法正教育部高等教育師副司長曾欣源經濟部產業發展部署長周宇勳及相關人員及其答夥說明另有委員林沛翔林倩琦徐欣穎提出書面質詢決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員所提書面質詢後相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報三"},{"start":1588.452,"end":1594.327,"text":"對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關建樹以順便答覆宣讀完畢"},{"start":1596.227,"end":1620.543,"text":"请问各位委员上次会议议事录有无错误或遗漏之处没有好那议事录确定今天的议程是继续审查学校公参法草案相关草案共35案包括的由半域委员等16人拟据的案子委员马文君等17人拟据案子委员鲁明哲等24人拟据案子"},{"start":1621.483,"end":1648.415,"text":"委員王玉明等17人擬聚委員洪孟侃等20人擬聚委員黃建豪等20人委員楊瓊英等21人委員林倩琦等21人委員鍾嘉斌等17人委員郭玉琴等16人委員張雅玲等17人委員柯志恩等21人委員陳培宇等26人台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":1650.316,"end":1667.494,"text":"委員王宏威等20人委員葉元芝等20人委員陳秀寶等20人委員林依菁等33人委員劉建國等17人委員徐巧欣等19人委員邱振軍等25人委員羅廷瑋等20人委員萬美玲等19人"},{"start":1671.678,"end":1688.939,"text":"委員葛如君等17人委員吳佩奕等20人委員陳亭飛等16人委員王美惠等19人委員陳金輝等22人委員徐玉珍等23人委員張家俊等19人"},{"start":1690.04,"end":1711.647,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人委員鄭天才等17人委員伍麗華等18人委員林月琴等29人委員游皓等17人擬拒了相關的營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法等草案今天又繼續的有提供了"},{"start":1714.222,"end":1740.956,"text":"顏寬恆委員等18人擬聚的還有吳思瑤等17人擬聚的相關草案將進行逐條的審查那我們首先介紹在場的委員陳秀寶召委柯志恩委員萬美玲委員林怡瑾委員"},{"start":1743.752,"end":1770.228,"text":"郭育琴委員謝榮介委員吳佩奕委員其次介紹今天與會的官員首先是教育部部長鄭英耀 鄭部長好 政務次長張料萬堅國民及學權教育署署長彭復原"},{"start":1774.059,"end":1799.72,"text":"還有介紹第一次來的官員運動部競技運動司科長藍嘉萍環境部化學物質管理署科組長林松錦環境部環境管理署科長陳振昌"},{"start":1802.9,"end":1830.697,"text":"農業部農糧署副署長陳啟榮農業部畜牧師檢任計政馮一月農業部漁業署檢任計政鄭淑雯衛生福利部國民健康署組長劉嘉秀衛生福利部食品藥物管理署檢任計政廖姿婷"},{"start":1833.123,"end":1836.191,"text":"保護部參事汪南君好 謝謝"},{"start":1843.241,"end":1870.696,"text":"本案已於114年3月20日詢答完畢並於上個月11月27日開始審查本次新增委員顏寬恆等兩個提案草案版本不再進行詢答並入本次共同的審查委員如有臨時提案請於10時30分前提出處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例就不予處理"},{"start":1873.576,"end":1897.413,"text":"現在審查學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案相關草案進行逐條審查請議事人員宣讀所新增提案條文內容並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增修正動議請議事人員一併的宣讀那我們現在就到台下大家一起來進行審查"},{"start":1923.629,"end":1932.86,"text":"官僚們盡量封鎖綠茶館資訊項目行銷項目以下的項目下層選項項目在高度展覽的三個項目中選項目選項目在高度展覽的三個項目在高度展覽的三個項目"},{"start":1946.561,"end":1969.119,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":1974.027,"end":1977.875,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1989.96,"end":2002.233,"text":"好各位委員還有行政官員我們先就上次的一個決議部分來做一個說明讓大家在"},{"start":2003.294,"end":2029.209,"text":"進入到後續的審查當中可以以接著前面的一些已經有的成果來繼續的或是這些指引來繼續來做審查那我們上次是在11月27號所做的第一次的逐條審查那我們已經達成了下面的一個決議就是法案名稱是"},{"start":2032.892,"end":2058.751,"text":"是以學校等一下學校午餐及飲食教育條例是確定的這個版本是以柯思恩還有陳培鈺等幾人所提案的名稱來去通過的我們另外第二個決議是各張張明軍部採納所以這邊也是一個重點"},{"start":2060.652,"end":2084.289,"text":"另外呢我們有把第二條那第一條因為是保留保留那我們等一下也可以等一下來討論不然是我們先就已經有修正有共識的部分是在第二條第二條呢大家可以看一下第二條是本條例所稱主管機關在中央為教育部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市"},{"start":2086.051,"end":2108.993,"text":"為縣市政府 以下就稱地方主管機關那主管機關掌理學校午餐及飲食教育之規劃推動及監督等事項本條例所定的事項涉及到中央各目的事業主管機關等執掌者那這個部分現在大家應該有一個這個分條就是各條的這個對照表好 還是需要再念完嗎 怎麼樣"},{"start":2110.598,"end":2128.188,"text":"我在先說因為這第二條是我們當初已經做修正的我建議我們後來第三條就是因為它有涉及到第一條的對象就是營養午餐要實施的對象所以第三條也是因為這個原因"},{"start":2129.349,"end":2141.961,"text":"所以沒有審那我在想說我們是不是回到把第一條就那個保留的部分就一起開始來審就確定那內容那現在我就做完一個說明請大家不好意思 昭薇我現在可以發言嗎"},{"start":2144.272,"end":2159.182,"text":"因为我觉得在审这个案子之前我还是觉得需要教育部来做几个厘清真的是因为我们当然希望所有的法案通过完之后听过三途之后就能够确实来做执行那从上一次上一次是11月几号"},{"start":2161.031,"end":2184.395,"text":"几乎一个月的时间这三十天当中我现在不晓得当然我们当然没有收到教育部来个别来沟通所以我也不晓得教育部现在目前对这部法的态度到底是如何那最重要的原因就是我们现在教育部的意见到底等不等于行政院的意见因为我们行政院没有版本这个东西对我们过去来说你不要说像AI或者是说学特别是学辅法我比较说"},{"start":2184.915,"end":2203.221,"text":"學輔法那時候根本就已經在行政院在路上了已經在路上了所以我當招委的時候讓學輔法可以這樣子大家來去做可是這一部法目前為止我只要問一個行政院的文字各方面是不是等於行政院的版本一個多月行政院沒有任何動作教部沒有任何動作我不希望我們坐在這邊是審個心酸的"},{"start":2205.362,"end":2223.817,"text":"因为还有一个很切实的问题我也知道营养师还给我们非常多非常多的想法我们也都会在等一下的条文当中会有一些但是一个最根本的一个问题到底这个实施完之后目前的营养午餐的这个补助到底会发生一些的一个变动那现在已经搞到"},{"start":2224.537,"end":2251.983,"text":"我们这个已经太多太多太多三读之后已经不够已经没有办法去执行的然后最重要是这些我们通过完之后等一下会有很多外加的这些的金额那到底这些金额来说的话现在才划法要用哪一个版本我自己都搞糊了然后呢中央跟地方怎么分配我觉得这些东西如果没有厘清最重要是没有行政院出来这个版本我们就这样子在这边审然后到最后结果"},{"start":2252.603,"end":2276.612,"text":"完全是不一樣的話我會覺得我們現在這個時間點上面是有一些的浪費啦所以我覺得這個上次到這邊我覺得我以為這一個月當中會有一個突破起碼行政院那邊的態度或者是我們這邊的部分還是沒有嘛所以我就覺得我們自己關起門來在這邊自己審開心的這個東西還是一個非常重要我覺得需要教育部來做一個釐清啦否則的話真的是要想一個心聲的啦我不知道是怎樣啦這個還是需要來做一個說明啦"},{"start":2279.608,"end":2303.339,"text":"好 謝謝柯志文委員的一個在正式進入到第二次的審查所提供的意見那這邊因為有過去聽到彭署長的一個意見不過我還是請行政部門或是說請部長來直接講因為他本身事實上目前據我所知是他本來就已經是"},{"start":2305.14,"end":2328.642,"text":"有政府部分就是讓大部分都補助起來啦雖然他權限是屬於地方的但是大部分的時候如果地方不夠大部分都是政府中央政府在補啦不過我還是想因為我是從聽聞的但是我想說有行政部門來主動的來去做一個正式的說明是正中央他包括這個版本但沒有行政院版本的時候代表什麼意義這個是部分好就這樣子那請彭署長就說明對對對"},{"start":2329.363,"end":2355.783,"text":"好 謝謝召委剛剛柯委員所問的這個問題真的是這個本法在推動過程中會有非常重大的要因可能以後的裁員要一起考慮那現行柯委員所關注到的已經執行的74億那一個錢在114年就是中央政府補現在"},{"start":2358.206,"end":2363.543,"text":"明年這74億就劃歸請地方政府能夠編列"},{"start":2365.859,"end":2394.96,"text":"再來如果這個法過的話還要約略有44所以還要再增加44所以整體而言地方政府他在115的時候會有74如果再外加這今天過的可能會外加44億會達到118億那這個中央付多少因為在那個財化法的那個劃分上"},{"start":2396.021,"end":2417.29,"text":"就已經初步釋權是地方自治的部分所以會有這樣的一個考慮但其中國立學校的部分那個少額會由教育部來負擔所以地方自治的部分剛才講的將近110億左右110多億總額是118億可能扣掉國立學校的高中的部分"},{"start":2419.494,"end":2440.628,"text":"這個118目前都是地方所以可能委員也可以考慮一下這一個情形所以我們有一種情況是這裡可不可以如果今天一直審大家其實對於福國立民未來孩子的健康也都非常的照顧重視可以審他的比較國家方向的部分"},{"start":2441.388,"end":2455.482,"text":"比較具體涉及到甚至經費以及過於操作面的部分是不是容地方跟我們再談一下因為這個地方自治的情況蠻明顯的例如現行就有十個縣市"},{"start":2456.503,"end":2479.231,"text":"是餐費自己處理所以如果我們談到了後面條文有涉及到餐費如果現在才化法情形再加上地方又已經是自己處理餐費那對那10個縣市它是外我們今天講的118億分擔到他身上他又要再外加一筆等於是他自行的餐費之外他還要再外加"},{"start":2480.131,"end":2505.379,"text":"所以整體而言我覺得地方要賦能的同時經費也給了可能還是要滿尊重這個原屬於地方就非常認真在執行的法制這是第一點行政院這部分的經費情形跟現行地方的情形做個綜合說明謝謝委員 謝謝所以我們才需要行政院的版本"},{"start":2506.892,"end":2534.008,"text":"妳沒有版本我們現在在這邊討論妳也不可能讓她等一下再問一下那個謝榮介委員再說明一下因為現在等一下另外一個問題是在於說現在布版跟行政院可能會有什麼差距嗎這部分再講其實沒有版本等一下那就先請謝榮介委員先說因為在這個租屋補助內政部一尊國土屬意就是它今年年初就有發文"},{"start":2535.185,"end":2556.763,"text":"那上半年就下半年要進入的時候他就發文給各縣市說這個補助就改成地方縣市政府要補貼多少就是基本上他就是接受在野黨的財化法的版本所以他才發這個文嘛那現在變成行政院經駐了這財化法不動"},{"start":2558.072,"end":2581.481,"text":"所以我們現在變成這44億他也不敢給我們承諾那將來這個是全部歸由這個中央來處理或是說按照新版的財劃法不管最後通過誰的版本實施誰的版本那這些錢就是基本上就是地方要自籌然後整個財政劃分劃下去的像台南市"},{"start":2582.521,"end":2608.512,"text":"他把這個國立的高中職現在六度大概只有台南市是國立的那當時就是賴總統當賴市長的時候他說台南市財政困難就叫你們教育部中辦拿回去辦所以變成這個錢就是由中央在處理那財化法通過以後跟這個共產費還有包括這些補大概他就是全部要歸到地方政府他們現在不敢說"},{"start":2609.853,"end":2630.732,"text":"他不敢說啊 對不對他如果說就等於說 財劃法就是準備要做啊所以他們不敢有版本 他們要怎麼有版本呢你不就要說得清楚你一去說得清楚 總來就是這樣啊那只是財劃法各縣市能拿多少 現在不知道而已嘛沒有那個答案 所以現在大家都不敢說啊"},{"start":2632.179,"end":2653.245,"text":"好 這內容上面好像是行政院他們本本因為在財化法上的爭議不過我們也知道如果現在它是因為沒有公告了但是我們也知道行政院它自己說如果它的版本被列入到沒有 沒有 我現在是說的是行政院的財化法"},{"start":2653.965,"end":2671.9,"text":"行政復原的財化法如果被來審的話它是說他們是對地方的補助是最多的比像現在我們在野黨的版本等等的是這樣的情況所以應該用而且它已經有做一些相關的調整等等的那現在的一個意涵是"},{"start":2674.639,"end":2701.769,"text":"我們 我想去問一下教育部長部長 請問一下那你現在的這個布板跟現在我可以講的就是因為你們沒有跑過程序課事實上彭署長他們有經過你們有通過的就是這樣一個建議版本因為沒有沒有真的聽過到布板但是用文字是用建議文字那這個所代表的意義跟你們有考慮到像你們自己所提出的那種有跑過考慮到說財化財政方面的處理嗎"},{"start":2703.352,"end":2718.211,"text":"跟這個主席報告還有我們各位委員報告陳如我之前在這個營養午餐第一次在審查的時候我也跟各位委員報告過以目前來講中央跟地方是合作的"},{"start":2719.333,"end":2742.111,"text":"我們怎麼樣去確保學生的飲食能夠安全健康我想那是教育部一定一直來的一個立場也感謝委員對我們學生中小學生的飲食的一些關心以目前來講我們現在譬如說大家所關心的"},{"start":2743.072,"end":2761.994,"text":"学校的营养午餐是不是用这个国产的食材可溯源的这个机制我们基本上都掌握了也就是说我们透过成大协助开发的这个食材的一个机制的登录还有所有的我们的减和目前国产可溯源已经达到99%"},{"start":2764.136,"end":2785.587,"text":"然後我們這個系統上也提供我們各縣市包含偏鄉在營養午餐他們一個菜單的一個設計各項這個菜單設計裡面的營養成分我想這個還是要跟委員做這個報告那第二個就是說我們目前地方裡面跟中央還是有一些這個"},{"start":2788.41,"end":2814.344,"text":"大家都關心那譬如說我們目前所看到已經有十個縣市他們本以這一個各縣市的一個財源跟縣市首長他們對營養午餐的許多的一些這個政策上的一個推動已經有十個縣市他們自己營養午餐已經提供免費的一個營養午餐我想這是第二個補述那第三個以目前來講"},{"start":2815.365,"end":2828.495,"text":"我們確實國教署每年都編有74億用來支持經濟弱勢的國小學生的營養午餐然後包括三張EQ的一些經費還有偏鄉"},{"start":2831.436,"end":2857.261,"text":"這些營養午餐所需要的人力等等事實上以國教署還不止這樣的一個補助但是我們確實剛才委員所提的我們現在因為屬於地方自治的一個前線這個在整個中央跟地方在經費上它確實有剛才委員特別提到才化法它所形成的在未來裡邊的這一個部分也許"},{"start":2858.041,"end":2882.629,"text":"在國教署我們教育部的一個立場對這些經濟弱勢或者偏鄉的我們怎麼樣去給予協助但是其他我們也鼓勵各地方縣市政府他本以他的一個財政跟對協同的一個照顧我相信這一個部分由我們教育部以現在的一個未來想像的一個機會我們確實已經"},{"start":2885.829,"end":2912.106,"text":"會有一些力有未待我們也期待地方承擔更大的一些責任所以也感謝委員的關心事實上我上任這一年半來彭署長一直在跟地方22個地方縣市做許多的地方的座談溝通但是目前一直確實都沒有還沒有共識包含我們這個提供這個午餐的一些業者包含"},{"start":2912.566,"end":2938.436,"text":"各地方縣市它確實還沒有共識所以也因為這樣我們很難在行行政程序裡面提出一個驗版的這樣的一個營養午餐我想議題大家要關心但是怎麼樣給學生吃得更健康 更安全能夠讚用我們在地新鮮的食材給學童有一個更好的照顧我想我們立場都是一致的就這樣補充說明 謝謝"},{"start":2941.971,"end":2963.68,"text":"我先回應一下我這邊跟大家講一下因為這邊其實柯市政委員他們所關心的部分當然是裁員的問題可是一個很重要的原則是我們並不是在訴求免費的營養午餐這是重點因為營養午餐只是他提供了這樣子一個"},{"start":2965.42,"end":2983.732,"text":"國家去保證它的食材包括它甚至飲食教育還有經費上面對於這樣弱勢偏強的輔助最重要的原則是使用者付費大家應該清楚是使用者付費那使用者付費的情況看到全縣的處理的話看到它本身是地方政府為主的"},{"start":2984.312,"end":2998.327,"text":"那因此目前22縣市當中有10個縣市有10個縣市它已經說它財政夠了它就自己把它全部都是免費的那有些不是免費的部分呢就是其實上很重要就是使用者付費就是說"},{"start":2999.485,"end":3027.733,"text":"你如果本身的部分是在正常情況下是說就是使用者包括自己從學校或是從家長裡面他都要讓孩子來去提供這些午餐這是一個重要的原則那我們並不是要訴求我們這個營養午餐法通過之後並不是就是免費的營養午餐法類似像這個狀況所以因此這個裁員部分應該是我的理解是這樣子的那這一部分我就提供的是那包括經濟弱勢跟偏鄉是基本上"},{"start":3028.633,"end":3048.733,"text":"教育部都有在做相关的补助的那我就提供这样的资讯好 谢谢那现在刚才的有现在回应吗那个我只是想说因为我们还没有实时讨论第一个没有人一直强调这是免费营养午餐法也没有人一直强调这是使用者付费啊因为这样子可能会造成误解我想先理清因为我们根本还没有进来审啊对不对"},{"start":3049.353,"end":3065.378,"text":"也許那個召委的版本是使用者付費但是我至少沒有聽過因為已經就像您講的有那麼多的縣市目前是免費的我們目前沒有針對經費有一個看法跟共識我先釐清一下"},{"start":3067.915,"end":3083.244,"text":"好 陳秀寶委員謝謝學姐當然營養午餐法非常地重要這個有關我們的孩子在學校用餐的一些相關的食安但是剛才其實我們的部長也有報告過以目前來講在我們營養午餐法還沒有定下來之前"},{"start":3083.624,"end":3107.957,"text":"我們在公餐的食物裡面我們透過午餐契約的方式廠商必須提供我們在地的三張EQ的產品相關的法則我們都訂得很清楚然後對於就是我們這個混沖還是假冒的產品這些我們都有一個很重的法則的規定在那我們有豬肉儀表板來確保我們的學童在學校吃的肉品的安全"},{"start":3109.225,"end":3125.699,"text":"剛才講到一個很重要的重點說為什麼沒有院版是因為現在才劃法還沒有版本還沒有很確認那好中央跟地方的這個裁員的分配沒有確定之前那我們在執行這個營養午餐的時候相關的經費事權也沒有很明確"},{"start":3126.42,"end":3128.982,"text":"所以署長這邊有一直召開地方在做這些相關的討論但是大家還沒有共識我們的五川專法訂下來之後我們裡面的規定補助這些相關的執行的方面其實跟經費是息息相關"},{"start":3142.253,"end":3167.846,"text":"那如果說我們不管是之前的這個74億或者是新增加的44億的部分我們都應該讓教育部跟地方是有充分的討論有這樣的共識之後我們來討論這個營養午餐法的時候才會根據說事實是這樣子做事權是這樣子做分配之後那剛好跟我們的午餐法是契合起來的那我想你現在很急著要審視因為我們覺得營養午餐法很重要"},{"start":3168.266,"end":3184.523,"text":"但是如果沒有願版的一個來跟我們自己的版本大家去做討論的話我覺得說這樣子將來我們就是對於補助對於財務的分擔對於整個的執行面都沒有共識其實也不符合現在的現況以上"},{"start":3190.509,"end":3212.689,"text":"我还是要特别强调从11月27号到现在这一个月当中我们都在蓄神阴阳午餐可是这个月里面当中我没有收到任何行政部门来跟我们做沟通所以我不晓得这一个月摆在这个地方到底有没有更积极的一个做法但是我针对刚刚部长所提到的当然我相信很多的十个县市里面还有非常多人教育部也跟这个各县市里面该提供补助的都是有"},{"start":3213.169,"end":3230.155,"text":"但是這個營養午餐說實在的周偉也是我覺得最大的部分還是應該在於營養師專業的把關這個才是整個營養午餐法非常重要的所以專業的把關當中那我們未來等下提出的很多版本為什麼說跟裁員有很大的一個關聯因為這樣我們就認為在很多地方恐怕營養午餐不是至少一人我都覺得可能要兩人"},{"start":3236.317,"end":3259.968,"text":"这个数字等等之类还有这个所谓的营养师到底要做什么样的一个专业的工作我们如何确保他们的专业能够在学校能够得到发挥这是整部营养午餐法非常重要的一个精神但是如果这样的部分里面我们可能会因此增加很多的这些的裁员然后这个裁员当中如果没有办法得到一个行政院他们考量"},{"start":3260.948,"end":3276.109,"text":"中央地方而且在這個所謂的這個裁員分配完之後所做的更加可以往後執行的層面的面向那我們大家每個立委都在這邊根據自己的想法裡面把它說出一個我們認為很合適的一個數字"},{"start":3277.791,"end":3301.148,"text":"而这个数字当中政府又做不到因为我们没有这个院版所以这才是我最担心的为什么是说要有一些的确定然后最重要一个大的确定就是行政院的这个部分而且你刚刚已经分得很清楚了有关于中央的部分宣示性的部分里面我们当然很好可是宣示性的部分不是我们要的我们要的是真的是在地方裁员下放到地方之后每一个营养午餐"},{"start":3302.269,"end":3308.174,"text":"包括你補助給這個學校學校再轉給廠商還有包括偏遠地區營養師的這個問題還有廚餘的問題現在很多地方都完全拒收廚餘這些都是一個地方真正在執行面上裡面所面臨的困難這才是我們今天坐在這邊修營養午餐法裡面最大的目標就是幫地方幫助養然後給我們孩子可是我們如果今天坐在這個地方很多先前的問題沒有辦法得到一個釐清的話我們要坐在這邊審審出一個很漂亮的數字"},{"start":3331.832,"end":3344.441,"text":"沒有辦法執行還是沒有用嘛最重要還是一句話願版什麼時候給我們出來那願的態度到底是怎麼樣不然我們真的還是覺得我坐在這邊是省心酸的 真的是真的是在心酸啊願的沒有給我們裁員然後到底這個部分那到底要怎麼樣處理我覺得這個還是要給我們一個更明確的說法啦好 外媒林委員"},{"start":3354.099,"end":3379.751,"text":"好 不要嘆氣我想我去綜合一下我們在教文去審這個營養午餐專法其實我想從上一屆再或者是更之前大家都非常關心我們有志一同關心這個議題無非就是希望透過專法的設立讓我們的營養午餐能夠吃得好吃得安心 吃得營養去為孩子的健康來把關這個共識都有但是我覺得剛才聽到這樣子我覺得我把它做一個結論就是說"},{"start":3381.011,"end":3401.571,"text":"我們剛剛也跟部長也溝通過我們今天在這裡審每個委員其實都非常地認真也很細緻在看但是按照這麼多的版本我們把它整合好就算能夠跟著現在教育部的建議版把它審查完了但是第一個我們要看可以被執行率有多高"},{"start":3402.171,"end":3421.376,"text":"可執行性有多高現在都是攸關到不管是中央的態度院版沒有出來地方上各縣市縣行的狀況不一然後縣市的裁員的狀況現在也不明這樣的情況之下我們就算在這裡審到時候到底被執行率跟可執行性有多少我覺得這都是一個問題"},{"start":3422.356,"end":3451.422,"text":"那又我們今天審查完了那各縣市現在的狀況是不同的那如何去因應我們審完的版本然後以及他們可運用的經費能夠達到我們去審議的這個我們想要得到的結果我覺得這個可能我們都要去審慎的去思考要審大家所有的時間在這個地方而且我們的版本也都有了可是現在審查出來我想教育部也有教育部現在的看法那院版看起來我覺得院版到現在為止這麼多的時間給它完全都不出來"},{"start":3452.242,"end":3462.873,"text":"我覺得這個願板的態度其實也願板其實行政院我覺得態度也很可異所以如果我們今天要在這裡這樣子審那意義是怎麼樣我覺得召委可以再考量一下主席"},{"start":3471.094,"end":3490.812,"text":"在這裡還是跟大家講一下喔這個昨天12月23號我們在程序委員會其實我們的才化法的修正案已經被否決了第五次了啦我想這個部分還是要還是要跟大家說一下已經被否決了第五次就是連副委的我想主席您也是舉手否決的其中之一喔"},{"start":3491.352,"end":3512.779,"text":"我想這個才化法在修法之前其實國中小的營養午餐其實本來就是地方自治的一個事項中央本來就是應該透過一般性的補助款給予縣市政府但是現在直接又要加在所謂的我覺得可能大家又跌床架屋的又要要求中央"},{"start":3513.819,"end":3536.469,"text":"我個人是認為剛剛其實部長也有講目前已經有10個縣市他們是自行補助包含桃園市宜蘭縣新竹縣市彰化縣南投縣花蓮縣澎湖縣金門跟連江我想這個已經證明在地方他們在營養午餐的政策上面的確他們也是有能力有財源"},{"start":3538.05,"end":3567.125,"text":"但是現在大家好像上一次我們討論到第二點那現在好像又回到了大體討論那我真的覺得在大家在要求所謂的院版或者是講到才化法那我剛剛再提到一個重點就是才化法的修正案昨天在程序委員會上已經被否決了第五次就是這樣所以其實討論了這麼多我也不知道大家要怎麼繼續下去今天我們的這個這個部分以上"},{"start":3568.716,"end":3596.098,"text":"吳佩儀委員這個我同意剛剛前面委員說的真的坐在這邊好幾次都覺得好心酸喔因為我也不知道我們在審查什麼我們要審查的重點剛剛都有提到第一個要有裁員第二個要可執行要知道怎麼執行但是重點是這個行政院主計處8月29號就把總預算送到我們立法院來了今天已經12月24號了我們到現在總預算沒有審查"},{"start":3597.679,"end":3609.75,"text":"那大家都知道你沒有審查你新增計畫新增裁員要怎麼使用我們今天在討論的這個法上次我們都有發言我也支持我有版本啊那新增裁員在哪裡呢什麼時候要審查總預算呢已經12月24號了我很心酸的再次請教我們要趕快負起責任來啊"},{"start":3622.776,"end":3635.571,"text":"不能 新增預算 新增計畫我們都不通過然後一直在講說我們未來還要增加什麼增加業務就要增加裁員裁員在哪裡請在討論的時候要負責任的說清楚還有委員會發言嗎業源之外"},{"start":3644.096,"end":3669.821,"text":"對啊 我也是覺得蠻心酸的所以希望行政院趕快來溝通啦然後依法趕快按照立法院通過的三讀的法案來變預算不然大家卡在這邊也不是辦法所以希望行政院可以負起責任但我覺得我們修法最主要就是要解決一些現狀的問題嘛譬如說現在到底學生吃得夠不夠營養還有譬如說五蜜他們的行政工作有沒有其他人可以來分擔等等有很多現狀"},{"start":3671.141,"end":3692.218,"text":"急迫的問題需要解決所以我覺得雖然說現在行政院一直不來溝通害得總預算沒辦法省但是該做的事情還是要做大家還是要思考一下怎麼透過修法的方式把問題來解決那裁員部分另外法律法過了之後大家還可以來溝通跟他討論啦我覺得我是認為還是要積極往前走啦 謝謝"},{"start":3694.619,"end":3712.548,"text":"好 現在還沒有委員要發言如果沒有的話我現在要請剛才委員們所提出來的問題我想要請教教育部第一個部分是說請彭署長就針對目前我們總共22縣市那10個縣市是免費的那還有其他縣市他們是採用什麼樣的"},{"start":3718.452,"end":3723.836,"text":"收費或是怎麼樣的財源來源是請說明一下然後那平均一個營養午餐大概是多少錢這平均如果那個數字出來然後第二個部分就是針對像教育部你們也提出來的一個這個建議版本那這個建議版本你們的當初的立法目的是什麼是不是已經有針對現狀的問題"},{"start":3747.747,"end":3771.14,"text":"現狀的問題 來去做的處理 那你們先也請把現狀的問題 來做一個提出 在這部分然後 第三個呢 就是針對像就是 人家說營養師 或加上這次的執行秘書這部分 那你們預計 如果到這個部分 就是大概是44億要外加進去的部分 那這部分是22縣市嘛 等於說 你平均每一個"},{"start":3771.96,"end":3776.102,"text":"平均每個縣市大概是多2億多2億的情況那這個是不是怎麼樣的一個分配是就你們看到是各縣市的財政負擔可能目前以舊的財政發放法來救的話能不能引起然後第4個問題是針對廚餘的問題廚餘的問題這一部分因為我因為本黨有一些就是也是請教了"},{"start":3800.65,"end":3809.552,"text":"國教署 那這一部分呢 似乎是跟他們跟環境部這邊呢 跟農業部有一個比較更近期 更進步的在做法 因為就在因應今年年底跟12 到1月明年的1月1號的新的做法 那應該是有個方向 據說是下禮拜一就要開一個會 就是有環境部去做廚餘 因為廚餘的最終的責任是在 是在環境部 那我們 我就先做這邊 那是就"},{"start":3826.156,"end":3851.552,"text":"國教署這邊能夠已經知道的部分是不是可以跟大家來透露一下剛才四個問題好不好謝謝昭惠剛剛六位委員所提我一併跟大家做個報告首先委員所提現在10件事免費其他22件事大概怎麼處理基本上有一些情況大部分的情況都還是向家長收費有一些情況他會局部補助"},{"start":3852.432,"end":3866.142,"text":"他沒權額都由政府負擔譬如說他一餐40塊全部由政府負擔這是一種剛剛那時的縣市那有一些縣市他會負擔少部分譬如說補貼你5塊10塊"},{"start":3868.823,"end":3883.309,"text":"所以剛剛講的有三種全免或是全有家長出或是第三種家長會幫忙抱歉 地方政府會出一點沒有全幫安眠第二個問題是現在平均餐費各縣市"},{"start":3884.409,"end":3896.193,"text":"不太相同 我們蒐集之後發現大部分就是45到60好不好各位委員 因為現在彭署長在講的非常重要的問題我想大家就先靜一靜聽一聽好嗎這是講到裁員的這個情況現在的狀況是什麼 先繼續一下"},{"start":3901.396,"end":3918.037,"text":"剛剛講那個時限是之外的另外兩種情況也說明了平均餐費目前大概是45塊到60塊之間那另外第三個問題是這個立法時那我們也一直在研究委員的版本跟我們自己也在解決現場跟地方政府一起努力"},{"start":3919.539,"end":3925.307,"text":"這個版本目前委員提的或是我們中整的會解決什麼現況問題嗎基本上現況的問題其實在108年的時候我們發現最嚴重的是城鄉問題"},{"start":3935.409,"end":3956.136,"text":"第一個是城鄉問題就盛傳哪邊吃20多塊的餐哪邊已經吃到了60多塊的餐諸如此類所以我們用三年的時間設了100多個廚房幫忙花了60多億去發現可以解決所以專法當時才比較有信心說"},{"start":3957.156,"end":3978.996,"text":"偏鄉那個很獨特台灣的狀況我們有方法了但是不是只有靠錢可能包含設廚房人力還有相關的運送部會合作還有線上的一些系統來看餐有沒有是熱騰騰大概都解決我們就比較有信心繼續再往下收集一些第二個就是可能的食安問題"},{"start":3980.097,"end":4004.794,"text":"所以食安問題這其實不是郵交部獨立能解決行政院有一個食安半廈的各食安五環計畫跟所有今天被點名在這上面的四大部會都在裡面我們是用非常系統用系統再去處理食安問題也就是說你今天吃了一道菜你要能夠被溯源溯源前那個已經被檢測諸如此類"},{"start":4007.196,"end":4024.717,"text":"当时106的时候才60多70多的比例现在已经到达快99了那类似这样因为有努力所以说专法有很多其实是就我们觉得可行才敢放换言之那些可行现在已经在做"},{"start":4026.158,"end":4042.207,"text":"所以有一些急迫性的是在這多年來已經用措施在配合委員給我們的經費解決了所以為什麼行政院現在在處理的過程中他在處理是因為整體那個才化的劃分過後"},{"start":4043.288,"end":4070.113,"text":"是那個的問題否則以現在來講在113年年底以前所有委員關心的是我們是盡量用院的角度整合力量 實案問題用部的所有經費資源跟地方合作處理營養師問題甚至偏鄉的營養師怎麼樣讓他可以有營養師的類似的人力去協助如果他不上山但我們也還是有方法禁用了100多位類似這樣最後一點是"},{"start":4071.033,"end":4089.914,"text":"可能大家会关切说那这整个有没有可以在精进的地方会让本法变成有一个更往前的精神我们有时候会去对照日本韩国的几十法这一些会发现说营养师的比例有没有可以再做什么处理事实上国内跟"},{"start":4091.558,"end":4114.782,"text":"大家的國情不一樣我們有1200位的健康老師他在營養教育上我們已經有獨特在課綱以來的教育所以營養師在國內的營養師專法裡面有他的角色所以這不一定那麼的一定跟國外但是我們也很吸取經驗甚至也在這一個月我也個人去比較"},{"start":4116.192,"end":4140.075,"text":"也看看他們吃什麼他們幾菜幾湯我們吃得怎麼樣最後我要特別歸納說我們在現況上能夠處理的其實現況上的各法跟相關措施跟委員中間歷來歷屆召委一直排這些會議其實已經一直有改良跟增進現場的提升跟食安的控制最後一點是"},{"start":4141.857,"end":4148.401,"text":"那個營養師的部分其實剛剛講的44億是有六項其中一項是營養師不是44億都營養師所以剛剛謝謝委員也給我這一個說明的機會營養師我們的方法可能會增加236人我們現在算了算吧會再增加200部的建議版本如果照有一些委員建議的可能會多達到300人"},{"start":4172.617,"end":4195.668,"text":"因為大家看到的問題上所以那個不會佔到44億啦老實講但是有一些是參考一些國家到底是用人算是用班算大概有這一些顧慮而已其他的人數大概我們有算了一下那最後一點廚育的問題目前環境部也是很努力在處理有分三階段在年底前一段明年一段116年以後一段那就在116年以後"},{"start":4199.75,"end":4216.251,"text":"整個國家對廚餘的怎麼樣一個去化政策下來規劃這三段政策所以大概環境部在處理之後完成修法或法規的訂定之後我想各部會包含教育部都會全力來配合以上趙偉所提的四點問題跟您做個回報 謝謝"},{"start":4221.214,"end":4242.733,"text":"因為就照順序好不好就照這個順序那就陳秀拔委員柯之恩委員范雲委員好 謝謝謝謝主席我還是要再講一下其實剛剛剛剛署長這邊在補充報告的時候我又想到一件真的剛剛其實大家都有提到關於這個新增的44億裡面有一部分是我們營養室要增加員額就是236元到300人"},{"start":4246.796,"end":4267.472,"text":"那增加是一定要的因為對於營養師對學校對營養主餐來講我們營養師的他的相關的參與是非常重要我自己也提了一個修正動議就是在我們的飲食教育政策學校飲食教育政策裡面要增加限職營養學校營養師代表來參與"},{"start":4270.854,"end":4295.928,"text":"但是我們現在有個很大的問題就是說我們的預算都還沒有審我們新增的部分都沒有那這些營養師要如何增加員額進來要如何來分配這些工作包括我剛剛提的我新增了這個修正動議就是希望說現實的學校營養師代表要來參與這些政策會那你完全沒有這個費用完全沒有這個經費完全沒有著落那新增根本不可能啊"},{"start":4297.069,"end":4320.428,"text":"接下來我們所討論的這一些是討論也是空的對 心酸的我剛綜合不管是部長或是署長所提到的很顯然你們的想法是認為我們今天審這些營養午餐說實在的有一大半部分的部分你們透過過去的努力其實都已經達到了好像很顯然是這樣的意思 對不對"},{"start":4321.269,"end":4348.406,"text":"你们已经做了非常多的努力了也考量各方的裁员了所以营养午餐的这个我们所提出来的你们都已经做了那么多的努力就是要告诉我们他们都已经百分之七八十都可以达到了而且目前裁员还未定的状况之下面很多事情很难再更进一步的去去做一个划分没有错所以就可能要思考一下我们今天坐在这边讨论这一步法的一个原则可是我还是必须要强调"},{"start":4349.386,"end":4372.135,"text":"即使你們有達到了包括3Q3張EQ的補助費用你們撥給學校學校撥給廠商那當然有很高的比率是給廠商啦那個性是都有差異啦那學校其實也沒有拿到這些部分你們都有考慮過了同意但是這一步裡面其實我們要透過這一步法來修的我說實在無非就是有非常多的營養師還有剛剛袁氏所提到的這個"},{"start":4372.895,"end":4391.854,"text":"做这个除工的问题专密的问题这三个人等的这个问题是在食材之外你们比较少去琢磨的那如果是这个样子的话我们今天讨论的这个东西百分之八十你们都认为达到了然后呢我们那三项的人员"},{"start":4392.655,"end":4419.826,"text":"显然在这一次的征法当中我们可能会我们每一个委员条例当中都会给他们非常多的这个确定其实是最重要是在他们全责上面的一个确定不要让他们去做太多太多额外行政的一个琐事那我们就必须要厘定清楚嘛那你审证不法当中有很多你们已经做到的但是有很多这个所谓原额上面的一个确认还有这个职权上面的这个确定当中"},{"start":4420.606,"end":4442.175,"text":"那我们怎么达到这个目标吗我觉得我们现在最大的目标就是希望能够让整个的体制能够更加的完善嘛那如果这一步法透过这样的一个讨论把文章都修出来然后裁员没有确定又没有办法那我们是不是大家应该来思考一下解决刚刚那个问题那很显然愿不愿意提出愿版可能是"},{"start":4443.035,"end":4471.176,"text":"是不是部长可不可以承认就是因为愿觉得已经做得够好了所以不想去做提出这个愿板然后呢还是因为什么样的理由所以迟迟都等不到一定要把你们的问题说出来嘛你们刚刚讲那么多丰功伟业我同意啊但是到底但是我们这边所有一排的委员也希望把三个职称的这样子的一个他们的工作也给他确认我们是把彼此做一个妥协我们才知道该省怎么整不法嘛大家各取自己所重视的这个范围嘛否则"},{"start":4471.756,"end":4484.436,"text":"花很多时间然后省一些你们已经做到的然后呢没有花时间在一个我们大家所重视的那这个不是我们坐在这个地方把这个整个的营养午餐制度把它变得更完善的一个方式吧我们是不是可以做一个更有效率的方式"},{"start":4485.489,"end":4504.466,"text":"好不好 部長謝謝委員我想確實它就是因為財化法的一個關係讓我們在整個經費上的一個調配它確實是面臨到挑戰也就是說剛才委員所提的營養師國教署本來就有編一些對偏鄉的一些特別的照顧"},{"start":4505.166,"end":4533.105,"text":"但是屬於地方的錢者如果才會把這些所有的錢到地方的時候我們也期待地方能夠承擔更大的一個責任這也是為什麼彭署長在地方裡邊在折衝裡邊確實一直都沒有供應比如我們講營養師專密儲供那以後的三張EQ事實上已經到從政府來階段性已經到99%了地方也都可以做這個錢也到地方了那地方還是希望說這個還是"},{"start":4535.826,"end":4548.891,"text":"要中央來補助嗎整體來講就是說中央不可能有一個無上限的經費所以他才會就在那裡我想做這樣一個補充說明 謝謝"},{"start":4555.617,"end":4578.376,"text":"應該是順序人到您再由部長說我也先呼應剛剛吳佩儀委員講的因為其實我們這個會期是預算會期到現在依法應該12月15號前要審完現在已經都沒有審了我們再審一個JOY部我們沒有院版的營養午餐法"},{"start":4579.977,"end":4592.905,"text":"因為之前我問教育部一些法案的進度教育部都說這個會期在忙著預算所以但是現在我們沒有審預算問這個但我想我們既然要審我也問一個跟財政相關的關鍵問題雖然剛剛朝偉說是什麼自負是不是"},{"start":4600.258,"end":4627.6,"text":"使用者付費我是不是那麼的認同那我也提醒昭偉昭偉我們不是小學生因為你上一次管我們就是有人走來走去然後今天又管我們說剛剛張亞玲委員來其實我們是在討論法案的審查的議題然後你就我們不可以講話因為署長在講話署長用麥克風大家都聽得到耶我們是很小聲耶所以昭偉未來不要把我們當小學生好吧您教的是大學也不是小學嘛對不對您好"},{"start":4630.042,"end":4657.6,"text":"回来讲关于营养午餐法我觉得有一个关键的东西就是刚刚秀宝委员提到的营养师不是要进入细节虽然就是关于餐费到底是自付谁付目前还不清楚大家的共识可是营养师的部分我们来看一下我的版本是如果要自办的话1000人以上未满者跨校民众党版是500人以上一人那500人以上一人"},{"start":4658.701,"end":4677.155,"text":"我們辦公室去要來的資料如果照民眾黨版的話全國營養師公會有4909人依照民眾黨版的話需要的國中小跟高中要3196名幾乎所有的營養師公會都要下去了"},{"start":4677.515,"end":4699.898,"text":"那這些人的經費是蠻龐大的一個經費我不知道教育部有沒有試算過先不管這個錢是中央出還是地方出因為你要提升品質先不要講食材的錢提升品質營養師設置應該是大家的配置式那這個人事費"},{"start":4700.959,"end":4726.79,"text":"是誰買單到底是地方政府然後還是教育部他是約聘僱還是公務員這個錢我也想問問看教育部有沒有試算過多少錢我知道之前教育部因為我要提一下上一屆就是我最早提了這個法然後我還提了兩個版本一個是跟民團的推動的團體一起提的一個是我個人的版本所以"},{"start":4728.51,"end":4748.747,"text":"當時教育部說有跟地方政府討論所以不知道教育部這邊有沒有跟地方政府討論關於這個營養師配置的這個要花多少錢然後地方政府有沒有意願來負擔因為如果照教育的法規的話教育是地方事務應該是要地方負擔那這個錢是數十億嗎 這個人事費"},{"start":4751.969,"end":4778.72,"text":"還是多少是不是可以請教育部如果依照民眾黨版的500人這個高標準我覺得非常棒如果我們負擔得起的話但是財政上到底是多少先等一下我本集我現在先解除一下我也是委員之一我也是可以發言好 我就回答一下剛才范議員的部分提到本黨提到說500人以上就設置1名至少設置1名"},{"start":4779.58,"end":4797.775,"text":"教育部本的話就是自辦午餐也是學生能助打550人以上那差額就大概就50人就一個學校來講的話那這個本版我提出來的當然是一個以目前的學校的規模來講的是一個可能是合理的打但是這個跟"},{"start":4797.995,"end":4827.355,"text":"因為目前布板其實差異也沒有到太多我的重點是錢如果做得到我很支持但是我跟大家講剛才教育部已經說了是236人如果是教育部的版本的話大概就是增加236人那個數據是非常清楚的那我就說到這邊另外的有關於我現在回覆到我的主席位置現在就請署長是不是就剛才委員們的一些回應"},{"start":4828.075,"end":4851.81,"text":"那這邊的話可能特別要針對像營養師啦 廚工我綜合一下就是說營養師專密跟廚工這邊的確是本就是這次修法當中有看到部的建議文字當中的一個特色你們本來也有喔 對不對你們也是有喔然後另外一個本次如果要進行的修法當中還有一個就是大家在"},{"start":4852.831,"end":4879.037,"text":"法案名稱上面出現的一個重要名稱是叫做飲食教育就是飲食教育那我這部分就提供了這個一些那就請署長這邊 召委不好意思我發言一下好嗎我這樣想喔如果我們現在已經要開始討論到這麼細喔那我知道你們剛剛在討論那個營養師那個部分已經在很後面的法條了所以我們現在是要開始這樣子嗎那剛剛其實柯真委員也有提到一個大方向的部分是不是我們要先就大方向確定下來"},{"start":4879.697,"end":4897.836,"text":"那否則其實你剛要談營養師我們可能每個人都要都有營養師的部分要發言啊所以先把大方向先確立下來這樣會不會比較好因為現在還在詢問階段那等一下就請不是 現在如果要詢問我們好多問題要問喔對 就沒有 我說詢問是說就剛才大家說那個裁員嘛沒有沒有 你要先處理柯子恩委員他講的是大方向嘛是是是"},{"start":4898.937,"end":4920.292,"text":"大方向就是裁員還包括說這部法當中有沒有其他的部分在於說還有我們先那個昭瑩不好意思妳先聽我說好不好我覺得因為剛剛每個委員都有發言那我之所以沒有發言是因為我們現在在裡面每一個條文像我自己也都有版本如果我們現在就要細緻去討論什麼五百五十人 一千一百人然後裁員 營養師這樣子那我們就等於要開始討論了"},{"start":4923.374,"end":4938.693,"text":"那但我們現在還處於覺得這樣子的這一步伐的這個目前的可執行性 必要性 大方向所以是不是先處理一下看柯志文委員的這個提議好不好對好 那現在還沒有委員要發言好 那個張雅琳委員"},{"start":4940.291,"end":4967.599,"text":"這一點我也是呼籲萬美玲委員啦就是我想因為如果你今天要到10級的細節的話那我們就可以開始就等於是進入實質的審查了但是我們現在是基本的大方向上面都還沒有確定到底要不要進入這些細節所以我也認為我們不應該進入這些細節的討論這樣子好 謝謝各位委員目前在針對我們現在在繼續審查的一個意見那我現在說明的部分在於說"},{"start":4970.709,"end":4987.889,"text":"剛才回應到柯志文委員的一個意見是在於說因為部長已經說了我們或是署長已經說了我們這一部目前教育部對於他們經過108年以來到現在就是非常努力的在完成了大部分都已經完成了那個食材的部分"},{"start":4991.025,"end":5006.672,"text":"但是在人力的部分 包括像營養師專密跟這個儲供這部分是一個新的這個是一個重點那另外我想要再 剛才我說要補充的是說這部法其實也是跟教育部講你們在所謂的飲食教育這邊"},{"start":5008.273,"end":5036.605,"text":"應該還沒有很落實所以這個是本法當中目前有時是在題目法案名稱上面就也是加入這些部分那我現在就提出來說這個地方如果把它真的有訂入專法就這兩個部分是可以應該是作為一個過去如果我們這部法都不審就是說我們這部法不審然後就是現在反正就像這樣教育部的目前的這個現狀制度就繼續的去這樣進行也是可以啦"},{"start":5037.145,"end":5055.685,"text":"那我剛才提出來就是要釐清這兩點那這兩點部分大家當然可以考論到那是不是也請署長或是部長部長或署長這邊呢就提供像剛才的在營養師這邊我在說你們有這個內容上面也有放進來嘛這是現在過去的可能比較沒有特別"},{"start":5057.203,"end":5068.768,"text":"講到的 那飲食教育這部分也是沒有的 那你講完之後我們就來可能要討論一下 我們是不是要繼續再審我的程序這樣處理 大家覺得可以嗎好 那現在就請署長或是部長來說明一下 謝謝"},{"start":5073.393,"end":5088.758,"text":"其實大方向上我們覺得可能還是要照本委員會的決議剛剛有請委員要我說一兩點不算細節但是可能會供委員做決策用的譬如說現在全台灣3400個國中小裡面有快要1200個是六班"},{"start":5093.7,"end":5112.706,"text":"以下的學校如果每個學校都設營養師那就是3400個營養師現況有780位左右所以這樣減下來還有2000多位如果像有一種版本要2000多位另外多要設那就要增加20多億就不是2億"},{"start":5114.837,"end":5136.076,"text":"就是有一种版本是要增加到两千就是三千四百刚刚那个范云文有一个意思是说有有有一个版本希望能够尽量每个学校都有最多的时候是这个样子这个是细节了回到刚刚委员讲的"},{"start":5136.997,"end":5155.391,"text":"人力這件事有三種人力如果我們像以前這樣用措施型來處理那才化法或是我們的預算審議如果也有進展的話或是按照預算法當沒有審的時候怎麼處理等等"},{"start":5156.372,"end":5175.574,"text":"我們有沒有辦法用措施像以前委員會要求我們的繼續努力那我們下一步來努力人力這方面的跟地方一起再來研究有沒有一定要修到法裡面才能做要來等嗎那這也是以前委員會覺得說那有些事情我們就來努力"},{"start":5176.415,"end":5185.885,"text":"那我們就不用等來努力措施也好 計畫也好有跟地方一起來協調這也是一個方向如以前的三四種計畫我們也逐步完成了國產食材 用國產豬我們用登錄的情況它那一錶板也是百分之百四年來都是這個樣子"},{"start":5194.955,"end":5215.419,"text":"好用契約來控制諸如此類也就是說大方向上的努力方向可不可以就委員指導的有要努力的這三種情形這三種人力我們用本委員會繼續來給我們指導我們繼續來努力有沒有現在有一些有困難之下就要在專法上要"},{"start":5215.839,"end":5232.239,"text":"花委員們這個時間而不定要花時間在討論的話也可以參酌以往經驗採措施行以上建議 謝謝請問一下剛才的那個飲食教育試試目前已經也在實施了"},{"start":5235.131,"end":5261.208,"text":"署長 要不說是次長飲食教育目前是不是也在實施了我跟委員報告一下其實現在學校衛生法的第16條因為我們現在所採用的很多文字避免跟學校衛生法做過多的衝擊所以有一些是兩法互相參照換言之現在學校衛生法本來就在推飲食教育我們是努力在推那現在更融入課綱變成素養"},{"start":5262.709,"end":5284.959,"text":"所以委員剛剛有擔心說那這樣會不會飲食教育就沒有辦法有根基其實我們一直在推那如果要透過委員的提醒像今天委員裡面有很多文字我們抓取出來再繼續用一些措施跟地方政府的重要的會議局處長會議或是一些專案會議其實都可以往前走不用等我覺得都還是可以繼續走"},{"start":5289.808,"end":5312.368,"text":"這樣看起來謝謝署長的說明這樣看起來我匯整一下是說目前包括的這個三種人力這部的特色那目前我們可能會如果法上面要大家可能都還要吸收不同的意見而且他可能要階段性的逐步的這樣去完成的情況那這樣子"},{"start":5314.89,"end":5333.727,"text":"再裁員或是說大家還要再討論尤其是說沒有院版的情況之下那是不是這個就可能用但是我們可能要做一些什麼決議的方式這邊先等一下再說但是我們先如果我們方向會往那邊就這樣進行那第二個部分呢就也確定是飲食教育現在在所謂的學校衛生法也是已經有在推動嘛對不對好"},{"start":5335.208,"end":5344.456,"text":"那 大家如果確定這這樣的事情的話是不是 當然就會出現到說 欸 現在變成說 另一部專法好像也沒有那麼的必要性了會不會出現到這個問題嗎 還是"},{"start":5347.578,"end":5365.188,"text":"還是說我們就暫時擱置是時機不合這樣的情況時機還不宜專法是有保障那現在是剛剛眾委員還有剛剛我們也就做個補充說可能有一些包含財化法的那個還要還要一點時間但是我們有一些重要的事情其實也可以不用等"},{"start":5365.908,"end":5394.017,"text":"我們用一些措施像以前各委員會各召委給我們的要求我們就逐步努力也今天做出了一些局面是不是人力今天有提醒那大家也有版本我們再繼續把我們今天收集到的各版本跟地方政府去可以續談我們就不用通罰好像每個地方要增加到那麼多錢但是就人力部分我相信地方政府也會覺得有迫切感我們來跟他談往那方面來努力"},{"start":5394.617,"end":5410.342,"text":"好 這個是一個方向那現在請林議員然後再來就是郭玉琴委員發言好 謝謝主席我想重上不管是教育部或者是我們很多委員的發言重上所述"},{"start":5410.882,"end":5438.864,"text":"我覺得這一案真的牽涉到中央跟地方財源跟市權很多的劃分的問題地方有沒有一致的共識我看這個還需要很多的協調跟評估所以我想特別是財化法如果問題獲得解決我想再來排審可能是一個最好的方式所以我是不是在這裡具體建議我們今天就"},{"start":5439.665,"end":5465.524,"text":"不宜審查 我具體建議是不是今天就不要審查我提這個建議等一下請主席來處理 謝謝好 我呼應一下剛剛這個宜菁委員講的喔因為我在想剛剛其實說這個我們的營養午餐法到底有沒有必要性我想有必要性但沒有急迫性沒有急迫性是因為我們還有很多的部分可能要跟地方也要達成"},{"start":5466.565,"end":5484.001,"text":"部分的一些公司在裁划法的还没有确定的一个状况之下释权的部分那当然其实中央有更清楚的一个角色针对这样子的一部专法那不管是食安资讯的揭露或者食材教育等等这是属于全国一致性这个我们同意在我们的这个营养午餐"},{"start":5484.922,"end":5506.016,"text":"專法當中我們可以大體上來做更進一步的討論是沒有錯但是問題是今天如果是卡在包含剛剛提到的原額也好營養師也好人力的配置也好這些都是跟財源相關但是在財源相關目前我剛剛就講了昨天在程序委員會上我們的財化法的修法已經被擋了第五次了"},{"start":5506.776,"end":5527.728,"text":"連副委都沒有辦法這個部分我就想說我們都沒有辦法有一個聚焦的焦點今天就要來審查這個部分我想真的大家又在原地踏步以上呼籲一下這個移情委員我是覺得今天是不是等一下就是我覺得是可以再緩一緩以上好 柯森委員"},{"start":5529.767,"end":5549.279,"text":"我觉得不是不审我觉得是需要更多很确切的一个讯息因为毕竟这一部法从我第九届当立法委员开始就已经开始提出来然后这个过程当中我还是要回应一下教育部其实也在实财还有在学生的所谓的"},{"start":5549.859,"end":5561.764,"text":"飲食安全 安全層面其實做了一些的努力這一點無庸置疑但是我們還是強調這一步伐不是只有食材的部分我們延伸出還有非常多特別是對於營養師的層面我還是大膽的講一個你們告訴我未來可能要新增260人"},{"start":5569.643,"end":5590.383,"text":"36然后你说要2.8亿那这样算起来一个人要100万这不太可能啦怎么可能你今年约聘都是约你今年聘的都是约聘你几乎是全国四分之二是约聘每月营养师大概是56万一年那有经验可能到70万了所以不可能多聘一位就要100我觉得这个数字上面我是有一些的疑"},{"start":5591.345,"end":5604.825,"text":"我沒有說怎麼樣我只是說數字上面以這樣細算來看會有一些的疑義還有包括裡面很多委員我覺得是不是很重要的因為我們剛剛說的食材的部分我們覺得是"},{"start":5605.854,"end":5634.8,"text":"做了很多的努力了饮食教育照位所在乎的饮食教育里面的特别的确切的部分我们大家提出了非常多的这些的修法的部分显然你们在第四条部分里面应该可以再做更细致上面的一个推演我刚刚只是提出万一我们今天不省我们要再一次省的时候教育部在这个过程里面要做出哪一些的努力我觉得这样才有用嘛对不对否则不会说第九届要提的第十一届还要提表示我们很希望说在我们刚刚所在乎的这些"},{"start":5635.6,"end":5660.939,"text":"这些的部分里面是不是可以在周围在下一次排审的时候能够增加更多这样子的一个讯息而且我强烈的推荐就是说全国的这个营养师协会里面的这一些他们是对于他们在学校当中有非常多的看法我真的觉得这个署长可以多花时间跟他们了解一下他们现在所需因为他们的整个目标也就是希望孩子能够吃得很好"},{"start":5661.559,"end":5680.301,"text":"然后呢我觉得是是否可以说再一次排审的这个空档的时间能够再多做这些努力我还是要强调蓝绿在这边对于这部法大家都有一个共识但是只要扯到这个才华法大家就意见分歧对我们的立场来说三读通过的这个条文"},{"start":5680.802,"end":5702.987,"text":"把三毒通过的条文的经费放进去总预算我们大家就可以好好来审不是不审这一次如果硬要扯上总预算的话我们还是要再次表明我们的立场但是撇开这些回到我们自己就我们的专业当中的话如果周围做的决议是还可以再利用时间再去排审的话那我的建议是对于每位营养师要增加这些钱"},{"start":5703.747,"end":5720.869,"text":"是不是更精准的一个算法对饮食教育的这个每个所调列的项目还有营养师未来所要做的这些东西可以让我们更精致化这样才会让我们在有机会下次排成时候大家的版本上面会更聚焦来做一个确切的讨论好不好"},{"start":5721.892,"end":5742.404,"text":"好 外媒民委員好 謝謝昭葦我想後續到底要不要繼續排審這個我覺得我尊重昭葦的處理不過我覺得幾個點要講第一個點是我覺得教育部在這幾年當中也許有署長在這個營養午餐食材的部分或者飲食教育的部分的確其實滿用心一直在做"},{"start":5743.144,"end":5764.478,"text":"我們透過其實在質詢也好這個議題的交換意見也好還有看到教育部跟地方的溝通這幾年也有在做不過我們回到教育部今天也知道的我們所有委員所關切就是很多人力是不是應該要專職來把它補充進去讓大家都能夠在自己的專職上面顧好營養午餐所以這是一個重點"},{"start":5765.459,"end":5790.263,"text":"所以剛剛提到的不管是營養師 不管是廚工 不管是午餐的殖密等等我是一個建議啦 就是說當然我還是在強調要不要續審這件事情讓召委去決定不過我覺得假設我們認為這個專法一定是必要的而且是重要的但是它有沒有那麼急迫性而且這個急迫性是建立在有很多的條件都還沒有成立"},{"start":5790.663,"end":5819.613,"text":"然後呢可能地方中央的溝通財源經費等等還有就大家今天都關心的這個財化法的部分那財化法部分我覺得這個部裡面其實如果在經費上面其實也是很關注嘛那就應該要跟行政院講啊就是說以後啊立法院三讀通過的預算就是好好依法編列那我們趕快依法審查然後呢大家就都有錢可以用了所以呢我想我們回到這個主題來看就是我們希望啊是不是啊後續喔其實我有一個建議啦"},{"start":5820.333,"end":5847.771,"text":"教育部是不是可以针对我们现在未尽之处营养物材未尽之处就是在人力包括我们大家很重视的营养食等等或许可以其实提一个专报或是看教委这边再排一下我们可以把这些问题都把它提出来我想在国教署或者部长这个地方或许有一些是在我们修法完成之前立即其实就可以下去做或者立即就可以下去跟这个地方沟通的或许这样子会更快一些"},{"start":5848.331,"end":5852.459,"text":"所以以上那個要不要繼續審查這個交委再做決定吧"},{"start":5853.328,"end":5875.232,"text":"好 我提供一個建議啦因為今天的審查其實跟財化法這部分當然會有一些影響但是我覺得影響的部分我們先把它先先放這些財務這部分等一下我覺得重點今天是我們可能也可以透過這個機會來做一個就請現在利用這個機會大家都委員的同時在這個會議"},{"start":5884.211,"end":5904.83,"text":"這個場地齁 這個地方事實上蠻難得的我在想說 我們是不是包括營養師其實不是一個 剛剛是一個重點是營養師在整個營養午餐或是學校公餐裡面的扮演的角色我們是不是現在就可以請就是先做 我們是不是先爭取一個意見在於說 我們現在做一個也許我們現在就 也許說暫時的"},{"start":5906.371,"end":5919.213,"text":"先 我先想 大家先休息一下吧我的一個意見方向 我跟大家可以溝通一下就在於說 因為機會很難得我們這個地方喔 可以就是說做一個意見上面的一個溝通的一個機會"},{"start":5921.69,"end":5937.123,"text":"今天就說剛好利用這個機會但是我們把它轉成例如說是一個大體討論的一個部分就是透過這個地方來講但是我們的省人部分就暫停到這裡主席休15分鐘我們先等一下15分鐘我們先看看後面怎麼進行好不好先講完話可以再休息嗎"},{"start":5938.625,"end":5950.633,"text":"主席我們是立法院委員會不是學術研討會所以不是大型溝通無明確目的的討論會剛剛萬美玲委員建議的專報我覺得很有道理針對專報把財務各種狀況分工教育部的溝通狀況營養午餐你們認為應該要改善人力配置等等做一個仔細的專報"},{"start":5967.984,"end":5987.354,"text":"然後大家就各自每個人的觀點來質詢嘛譬如說我的有勝實啊等等喔這個部分那再來審查會不會更有共識譬如說那個召委認為說使用者付費有人認為說應該不同的做法那這個都可以透過質詢讓教育部回答他們的評估啊好 那"},{"start":5988.014,"end":6015.95,"text":"那個張雅琳委員在講完我們就準備就先再做後面的處理好不好那先張雅琳委員謝謝我想就是說我也提供另外一個方向大家可以起來討論啦就是說因為我想大家今天都非常在乎我們小孩有沒有辦法吃得好嘛那營養有沒有均衡嘛還有我們的飲食教育我想這是不分藍綠跨黨派的共識那大家也都非常希望可以積極的進入有前進的感覺嘛有進度所以我想說我們是可以透過一個臨時提案把今天大家的一些要求我們可以把它寫下來"},{"start":6016.63,"end":6028.225,"text":"然後透過這個提案來要求教育部持續的去更新跟這些相關的進度這樣子好 謝謝張阿玲委員我自己現在回復到一般的委員的身分就是說因為這個機會這個機會有一個難得在於說剛才"},{"start":6034.033,"end":6062.718,"text":"大家如果用專報也很好但是我們是委員會我們如果做過大家在這次的一個逐條審查的委員會的程序當中我們做成一個共識就是說我們等一下呢是針對要用也許像措施法就是暫停審查但是說措施法的部分措施的部分呢給一個像張愛玲委員所說的到底是哪些方向的部分因為真的這麼多委員現在都說這個很難得 至少在上午時間我們來提供了一個一些想法"},{"start":6063.498,"end":6084.165,"text":"就是他怎麼去改 包括他下次要提出來的時候 又更有具體方向我覺得甚至 等一下也是馬上可以做一些詢問是蠻好的啦 但是我們現在就現在我的意見也發表完了 那我們是不是就暫時休息休息10分鐘 好不好休息10分鐘 那個秀巴韋你們有活動是不是10分鐘差不多 還可以嗎 還是太早了要休息30分鐘不行 不行 不行 不行 會散掉"},{"start":6094.264,"end":6114.322,"text":"那現在我們繼續再討論一下不然現在做結論好不好如果我們今天大家都有共識就是說我們這個先不續審不繼續審這個法案的話那是不是就請昭緯就馬上做個結論那再來要做專報我們再請昭緯來排嘛好不好等一下好這個部分"},{"start":6115.849,"end":6131.185,"text":"這個部分我先跟大家講喔專報跟專報的情況之下大家是質詢其實在場沒有這麼多人你可以把意見彙整起來我是想說今天剛好變成說我們有個談話交換會我覺得張雅妮委員的意見非常好"},{"start":6132.495,"end":6146.359,"text":"沒有 我就說這些部分意見大家如果有一個共識是往這方面去進行或是我們休息一下我們休息一下至少休息十分鐘我們再看看怎麼處理好不好"},{"start":6160.974,"end":6184.416,"text":"你們誰誰開的青年基本法?全部聯邦?我跟你講全部是我們民進黨還是聯合國民黨?沒有人?我有青年基本法,誰邀的都沒邀我。"},{"start":6187.038,"end":6190.861,"text":"一個版本裡面有人是五百五百五百五百"},{"start":6215.197,"end":6231.693,"text":"所以他加入食材的部分裡面反而是在正規法當中的食材裡面第一點就是大家都已經在做了所以我覺得把他出群傳用的賬號的方法來做這點一定會滿足記下不足的很多問題"},{"start":6237.078,"end":6256.617,"text":"就是我去專報完的完之後,然後我們也要求他就像我剛剛說的,236.2208,應該這個數字要認識一下,然後呢,再去對財富的影響效率那個範圍,這個部分也會用這個方法來去控制,這個很重要,然後可能在專報的過程中,"},{"start":6258.259,"end":6259.379,"text":"是不是要來"},{"start":6273.829,"end":6297.925,"text":"不用討論了 等一下 你們一定要出來做我的意見因為你的很重要的提供是 大家如果是用專報在這個會議宣布的 等一下你們要去我市長的辦公室那是辦公室裡面的照碼 我要走了 我要走了我講完 我稍微再講完 你們會不會再講一遍"},{"start":6306.261,"end":6323.808,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳主要是為了提供餐廳的餐飲。餐廳主要是為了提供餐飲。"},{"start":6325.469,"end":6342.063,"text":"就是有時候可以寫臉書 身照片可以用對 有時候可以用 因為你要跟人家解釋說為什麼要看一個報紙或是報紙等到那個報紙 等到比較激烈的時候才去這邊總要有十幾個博士"},{"start":6352.577,"end":6356.601,"text":"等一下外界不知道說為什麼你們不審要解釋一下"},{"start":6370.976,"end":6373.419,"text":"有一條說通常是補助學校"},{"start":6389.356,"end":6390.778,"text":"那是你之前"},{"start":6408.879,"end":6415.965,"text":"因為他們考察的時候 他們都已經說了我覺得一般人會做不完善的意見 但是你也不能對親的類似這樣"},{"start":6428.575,"end":6440.646,"text":"對 沒有錯你要靠團山業者做 團山業者看到效果以前剛剛宋琴說你要靠團山 依賴團山業者很明顯但是你不能夠變成福利或是收賄"},{"start":6452.257,"end":6472.092,"text":"但是你們現在討論新北市是新北市要嗎?不是,新北市是那個有啊,那是中美無線的時代啊對啊,對啊新北市現在的界線是向對面如果真的要討論,如果真的是透明的規則就要透明的規則,反正是要透明的規則然後全國各國都要去討論"},{"start":6479.077,"end":6482.96,"text":"那你寫在條文裡面你會不會變成合法 合法給"},{"start":6508.797,"end":6510.818,"text":"專貨的方法專貨的方法專貨的方法"},{"start":6536.125,"end":6551.096,"text":"我們這個就是在審那在審的時候裡面的東西就有很多東西這樣就比較有效率這樣比較有效率對 音樂 音樂的時候就有在進行好 好 好"},{"start":6560.316,"end":6567.978,"text":"謝謝,謝謝"},{"start":6571.007,"end":6573.229,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":6600.862,"end":6622.244,"text":"對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對。"},{"start":6630.021,"end":6654.376,"text":"我們先宣告先宣告先宣告先宣告先宣告先宣告先宣告"},{"start":6657.507,"end":6659.429,"text":"我們希望有進度,而不是只要限量。"},{"start":6684.657,"end":6684.677,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":6699.669,"end":6700.89,"text":"因為這裡面還是"},{"start":6724.168,"end":6727.229,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":6776.698,"end":6777.819,"text":"那我們現在呢"},{"start":6779.366,"end":6795.922,"text":"現在開始開會我們先針對剛才休息時間所做的討論今天是因為大家謝謝各位委員跟教育部的官員有坦誠的交換意見然後也提出來說我們知道了現在"},{"start":6797.943,"end":6812.153,"text":"教育部呢 大概實施營養午餐法跟飲食教育呢 他們都已經大概就我們目前如果是完善的一個制度規劃的話 大概已經完成了七八成但是在很重要的是有的"},{"start":6812.913,"end":6838.092,"text":"三個專業的這個人力上面三類的專業人力上面還有包括的是它相對應的在決策體系當中的這些內容因為如果沒有這些實際上面的落實其實只增加人力但是它並沒有在決策裡面發生重要角色還包括的是其他的怎麼樣賦予他們的責任這是這個法裡面最重要的"},{"start":6839.033,"end":6865.163,"text":"因為大家發覺要更多的一個還有可能跟營養師公會啦 雖然我們本辦可能大家都已經有先跟委員們都有接觸嘛那個團善業者啊等等事實上跟大家都有接觸事實上我覺得他們也很認真在做這些事情包括還有要處理的部分那實際上看起來好像是教育部這邊稍微比較對營養師稍微比較弱了一些都有嘛 如果大家都有啊對啊 你說想要天天都有在延續"},{"start":6870.185,"end":6896.021,"text":"其實我真的覺得如果我們等一下真的我是先說在這裡面的內容當中教育部他們也有看出他們的用心因為他有把營養是放在一個部分但是他是其他的像更重要的團善業者那個都沒有放進去如果大家有看這個法的情況你就知道其實他們已經有做了蠻多努力的那如果做了蠻多努力的話"},{"start":6897.482,"end":6915.661,"text":"有機會再把那個財政這部分因為你不管怎麼樣手心手背中央跟地方通通都是要做的我事實上大家要給大家一個一個提醒或是說一個建議是這個把如果再把這邊部分完備的話真的是"},{"start":6916.673,"end":6944.021,"text":"我們教育文化委員會還包括立法院甚至連同的是跟教育部很大的一個很大的一個功德啦或是很大的一個建樹是對我們的學校的學生跟師生都有幫助的這邊但是很蠻有點現在遇到的情況是大家認為說這些部分好像需要更多的在討論甚至用專報那我覺得我也從善如流因為"},{"start":6945.458,"end":6973.917,"text":"大家沒有大家的參與這部分的話大家就可能也沒辦法也沒辦法繼續下去但是我想今天很高興有超過大概已經有十一二位的委員都還留在現在這個這個場合上面來我們表示大家對的看重也是跟大家表示謝意那我們繼續我們現在就做成一個一個決議就是我們因為還需要有更多的在請教育部做相關的釐清尤其在三種人力上面的在"},{"start":6975.418,"end":6975.667,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":6976.648,"end":7004.885,"text":"實施決策在實施上面的一個角色必須更大的釐清那還有包括在這個實施費用上面他們的來源他們的裁員這部分那這邊請特別要注意之裁員如果裁劃法等等的這個其實也不是大問題不過好啦就是這樣講裁員不能就提供意見那就這樣子我可能目前就先提供這樣的兩個意見那因為這個可能需要的互助等等互溝通資訊等等的我們就先"},{"start":7005.885,"end":7013.488,"text":"今天就 這個法案審查呢 就 就就暫時齁 就暫時告一個段落好 那我們 啊 怎麼樣現在是 你要程序問題 你要程序問題才可以打斷我不然我沒辦法被你接受 沒辦法接受你的發言耶你要做程序發言嗎"},{"start":7037.16,"end":7049.11,"text":"會議詢問 會議詢問可以吧好 那會議詢問那現在什麼狀況 那請你說一下趙偉有點嚴肅捏齁就 大家多一點探討嘛 可以嗎"},{"start":7051.034,"end":7077.427,"text":"我知道因為您剛剛闡述理念闡述的非常的多那我也都知道你利益良善希望能夠趕快修這個法我也認為這是有必要的那我也答應你如果我有機會當召委我會緊接著繼續做但是現在剛剛在討論到所以我們的這個專報到底是1月什麼時候我想好奇問一下就這樣而已一個詢問但我覺得好像就我一個舉手好像召委離我越來越遠"},{"start":7079.377,"end":7106.019,"text":"好像覺得我要否定你稍微我是支持你的我是在問程序問題我只是想要詢問一下就是說1月的專報大概排在什麼時候因為剛剛你有討論嘛1月什麼幾號到幾號但是我想更確切的問透過這一個麥克風可能收音來讓大家了解一下我們專報什麼時候會進行讓下一個關注詞法的人可以更了解我們是有要持續推進的並不是"},{"start":7106.519,"end":7126.07,"text":"我相信今天所有的 包括民進黨的立委他們也都很關注專報的進行因為大家都希望通過這個法對吧 范雲委員對當然柯志恩委員跟萬美林委員特別交代就是說這個東西一定要持續推進但是是廣納意見而且能夠收集到更多有力的方式的時候再來進行所以這個部分麻煩您可不可以回應一下"},{"start":7127.304,"end":7143.261,"text":"好 因為教育部的法案是我這個會期的排案範圍那下一次再排案的話就會排在一月份了 才排在一月份了"},{"start":7143.962,"end":7163.897,"text":"好 那1月份呢大概就是5號那一週的禮拜一開始578或者是再多一點就192122這樣的時間那這個部分因為是專報我會依據時間上面的需求跟國教署這邊跟教育部再多協調就這樣子"},{"start":7166.539,"end":7182.929,"text":"大概就是這兩個週的時間點就這樣子那我們當然是有希望說這個後續還有機會再把它真的是因為有專報之後後面有這個審查再繼續在這樣的狀況因為大家就已經花了蠻多時間去做充分溝通我覺得這段是順利的去"},{"start":7184.864,"end":7200.68,"text":"我往前進都是好事情我現在也不要求多但是往前進都是好事情好 那就我們就今天就做成的是說我們就暫這一個圖條審查就先暫停那我們下次會排一個專報來作指"},{"start":7205.117,"end":7226.145,"text":"保留在委員會當中啊是保留在委員會當中保留在委員會當中在這個會議記錄做一下就是保留在委員會當中繼續的在持續的在做審查好那今天呢關於會議做如下的決議我們有很多的討論"},{"start":7228.052,"end":7254.983,"text":"就是剛才的各個委員有相關的一些提問等等的再請教育部國教署這邊就是提供相關的資料個別的或是做整體的答覆那我們當然最重要是在下次的專報當中去做出來回應那另外的呢就我們學校五三級飲食教育條例草案就另期的這個繼續來去做審查"},{"start":7257.898,"end":7264.586,"text":"好 那就報告委員會啦今天的議程就處理完畢那現在散會 謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"166669","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166669","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d6017e7812e5cf5b9888f4e93bf07b6087f40144ed783f343301e7a2a83f9da65db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"13:33:24 - 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Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T13:33:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T13:42:13+08:00","duration":529,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.4990937500000001,"end":4.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.418468750000001,"end":5.262218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.054718750000003,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.712843750000001,"end":14.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.695343750000003,"end":17.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.074718750000002,"end":20.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.02346875,"end":25.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.461593750000002,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.47784375,"end":43.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.13971875,"end":33.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.15659375,"end":33.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.04534375,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.91846875,"end":60.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.36471875,"end":51.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.38159375,"end":51.837218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.33471875,"end":54.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.53721875,"end":54.992843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.992843750000006,"end":55.009718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.540968750000005,"end":57.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.56596875,"end":69.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.50159375,"end":66.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.00346875000001,"end":73.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.82596875,"end":69.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.18409375,"end":79.39409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.39409375000001,"end":79.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.54596875,"end":80.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.87909375000001,"end":89.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.00971875,"end":82.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.49846875,"end":87.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.72159375000001,"end":90.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.67909375,"end":94.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.99534375,"end":95.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.59409375,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.52221875000001,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.72034375000001,"end":99.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.16721875,"end":106.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.74846875,"end":110.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.61284375000001,"end":143.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.52409375,"end":111.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.09284375000001,"end":117.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.77971875,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.13409375,"end":123.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.20534375000001,"end":126.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.87159375000002,"end":129.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.23346875000001,"end":135.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.65534375000001,"end":135.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.70971875,"end":139.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.35471875000002,"end":144.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.87346875,"end":144.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.49784375000002,"end":145.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.49346875,"end":145.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.84784375,"end":148.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.41284375,"end":148.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.42971875,"end"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那到底暫行條例要不要拿掉"},{"start":25.529,"end":42.444,"text":"战情条例如果根据刚才我们的法治说战情条例已经实行了这么多年已经变成一个常态了那我个人的立场也是希望说如果拿掉没有影响的话除非说拿掉以后很多法律的条例要重修那就比较麻烦"},{"start":43.324,"end":67.923,"text":"暫行條例拿掉會重修嗎我不知道因為有暫行條例跟沒有暫行條例本身的法律的這些條文看需要不需要調整如果不需要調整那相對單純如果還需要調整的時候那就比較麻煩所以原則上我也希望能拿掉就可以拿掉所以只要不要調整或者是把調整的內容就是也是拿出來再修過那就可以把暫行條例就"},{"start":68.203,"end":89.904,"text":"對我現在如果沒有特別影響在法律規範是可以的話我希望是可以把它拿掉第一個我們未來老農今天就是要把基數先拉高嘛是不是把他的基數對基數先拉高嘛雖然說大家現在還有一些就是說到底拉多高這個大家都至少是一萬塊以上嘛對不對"},{"start":91.741,"end":105.637,"text":"抗我們的財政是不是就一萬塊以上是不是那到底未來CPI你剛才也講的就是說有一點就是回答前面我以為有點模糊到底CPI的這個"},{"start":107.398,"end":122.386,"text":"調整的機制是兩年或者是四年我這樣講我們在設計的過程裡面就額度的部分第一個部分把那個基底拉高一點第二個部分就是現在是每四年根據CPI調整一次"},{"start":123.266,"end":144.725,"text":"那我们希望说每四年还是维持着但是两年我就做其中检讨那这个其中检讨如果他的CPI达到某一个触发点就是3%或5%的时候那我们就当年度就开始调整可是四年到了还是会去确定他会调超过3%不用"},{"start":145.976,"end":162.19,"text":"假设说4年是4%好了然后两年的时候是3%那以现在的制度一定要等到4年才会调嘛然后新的机制我们的设计是两年就只有减4%它如果超过3%假设那我就调了可是后面两年只剩下一%嘛"},{"start":163.331,"end":187.587,"text":"我照调所以我维持4年一次的一个循环的时候是对您最有利的等于就是说你按照原本的4年调整一次但是如果两年超过了4年那个幅度的时候你们就调了不是 超过一个3%到5%只要超过那个出发门槛我就调整那后面的两年不管多少我还是会调"},{"start":187.987,"end":204.126,"text":"那最近幾年來就是說你們今年大概是3.59吧 是3年多少3.9所以如果按照你的機制今年就如果大院這邊大家討論的話是3%的話就可以調如果是5%就不能調"},{"start":204.932,"end":231.684,"text":"所以如果就是說未來是3%調整就是觸及3%就調整一次的話那今年就等於明年就要開始調了對不對是 如果是最後的法律的規範是這樣的話就可以調整對 那即便總預算不通過的情況下我們經常門還是會進行嗎總預算不過的話什麼都不用談我是說經常門咧不是 我們"},{"start":233.466,"end":249.968,"text":"總預算沒過的話新興計劃是不能動第二個延續性計劃你新增加的經費也不能動那個老農津貼本身是一個老農津貼本來就有了但是因為你提高的話你新增加的經費是不能動的"},{"start":250.769,"end":270.138,"text":"可是我們必須要給國人知道台灣的預算的制度跟美國不一樣美國是總預算不通過什麼都不能動可是台灣不是只有新興計畫還有延續性的新增計畫就是今天如果要增強延續性的計畫新增的經費也不能動"},{"start":271.88,"end":288.14,"text":"舉個例子我今天通過了總預算不過的話我還是只能領8110因為這個經費可是如果我們通過的施行日期是按照就是說就是即時即刻 一樣啊你總預算不給什麼都不用說啊我知道啊 不過未來你可以再追溯嘛對不對沒有"},{"start":289.983,"end":313.201,"text":"未來可以追溯嘛 但總預算通過了就可以追溯啦 對不對沒有 追溯是另外一件事情但是我們還是希望說年度的預算能夠希望委員的支持趕快省啦那有一些東西我也是希望說趕快省啦 不過還有有的地方卡地卡地人都不可以搬嘛 對不對"},{"start":315.835,"end":336.563,"text":"還有有的部份都要按照法律來編嘛我非常感謝委員對農業這個議題本身的一個對農民的一些照顧跟希望能夠照顧他們的福利但是我剛才講的我們都很願意像我今天的版本都很正面的回應那回應完了以後需要的經費那一定要總預算通過啦"},{"start":336.843,"end":363.95,"text":"我知道啦 所以拜託一下我是說即便是我們先按照原本的但是未來總預算通過的時候我們就可以農民就無感啦 因為變成說慢了啦慢了啦那這樣的話我們的計畫也不用那麼快送委員會啦因為送委員會也不能執行嘛喔 你就是用一個卡我們一個沒有沒有 這個是我們很認真的去什麼時候可以來老王津貼"},{"start":364.81,"end":381.165,"text":"我想我們盡快的跟行政院溝通看看會不會排入院會啦排入院會完了以後就能夠立刻的再請召委安排相關的一個逐條審查的部分所以牌婦也會都會一起處理啦也會進行調整嘛那進行調整的情況是如何"},{"start":381.665,"end":408.642,"text":"我想排富的部分第一個部分就是所得的部分我們會根據CPI一次到位就是現在目前CPI已經累積到16%從100年然後財產的部分是根據土地公告限值那土地公告限值現在目前的一個一個增幅大概是64.78那我也希望能夠根據土地公告限值來提高然後包括自用住宅的部分也有一定位來提高"},{"start":409.362,"end":426.743,"text":"那我相信我們那自用住宅會分區嗎也會來處理那我相信分區處理吧因為不同縣分區會比較麻煩會根據土地公告限制的部分不過我想我們提出來的版本針對排富的部分我相信一定會讓委員滿意啊"},{"start":428.467,"end":453.832,"text":"好那我最後再問一個就是說農民商業保險的部分我就是說農業部是不是預計就是2026年開始提供續保的農民額外5%的保費補助我們當初這個設計就是我們不希望農民就是用堵天跟天對堵的方式就是好像有天災的才去保沒有天災的就不保"},{"start":454.252,"end":476.319,"text":"那我們希望它是一個常態性的所以我們利用這個5%希望說它能夠持續保這樣的話投保人越多的時候相對的大家共同分擔那個風險的機會越大因為現在你們農民商業保險的推動除了一些政策型的大部分都是商業保險然後好像都其他的保險推動的還不夠有力"},{"start":476.699,"end":499.586,"text":"所以我才會說農業保險在我的立場一定要重視品質比重視數量這也是你們很重視的一個新型態的保險過去我們現在辦的保單大概28個品項44張保單但是我覺得有些保單投保人數太低我不想再衝那個量我希望說重視那個品質每一張保單都有很多人來投保"},{"start":500.246,"end":523.944,"text":"所以我們會設計更大的一些誘因然後我也把很多天氣參數放進去就是天氣參數達到了就啟動不要在那邊勘栽太麻煩的方式這個我想我們一起來努力好那就麻煩了好不好那希望說未來可以提供農民以及我們所有的農業的產業有一個更好的保障會謝謝那也希望委員能夠能夠讓總預算趕快審謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166665","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166665","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d605146209c341e65f08f4e93bf07b6087f53d00c89e76a212fef5a74ead98971cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"12:06:33 - 12:15:41","影片長度":"00:09:08","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T12:06:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T12:15:41+08:00","duration":548,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.19971875,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.14346875,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.231593750000002,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.344718750000002,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.85096875,"end":81.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.05909375,"end":36.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.533468750000004,"end":51.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.66284375,"end":60.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.12221875,"end":64.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.94221875000001,"end":151.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.06284375,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.26534375,"end":93.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.11284375000001,"end":97.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.08221875000001,"end":104.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.98409375000001,"end":111.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.23596875000001,"end":120.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.90659375000001,"end":121.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.63034375,"end":133.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.31284375,"end":141.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.58159375,"end":210.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.98596875,"end":153.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.25159375,"end":155.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.55471875,"end":159.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.40659375,"end":161.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.73534375,"end":164.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.02034375000002,"end":178.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.70346875,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.12471875,"end":221.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.24096875,"end":249.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.85409375,"end":241.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.46159375000002,"end":243.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.92034375000003,"end":264.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.58221875,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.36596875000004,"end":259.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.91784375000003,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.70409375,"end":342.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.42534375,"end":284.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.41221875,"end":288.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.18846875,"end":315.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.40346875,"end":349.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.44034375,"end":364.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.68284375,"end":368.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.81721875000005,"end":370.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.85096875000005,"end":369.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.69471875000005,"end":372.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.46221875000003,"end":400.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.93471875,"end":417.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.31409375000004,"end":402.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.30471875,"end":408.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.34596875000005,"end":418.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.78409375,"end":434.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.38221875000005,"end":425.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.98409375000006,"e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我們請農業部陳部長"},{"start":18.05,"end":33.809,"text":"部長好 部長我們今天在討論這個老農津貼的提高那我知道其實您是最關心農民的部長所以針對這部分剛剛我有聽到很多委員在質詢您您說一定會提高但提高的額度你還沒經過證願所以沒有辦法在這邊回覆"},{"start":36.912,"end":50.508,"text":"那我剛剛有看到您有做了一個報告就是各版本的財務評比的比較表就是如果一個月提高到8,550的話大概增加27.93億元增加到9,000大概是56.50億元然後如果增加到1萬的話大概是將近120億元"},{"start":57.276,"end":81.063,"text":"那如果有的委員版本是一萬二就兩百四十六億元那有的委員版本我們黨團的版本是一萬五千所以大概要四百三七點三八億元那請問部長針對你們現在所做的財務評估還有就是您知道農業部的整個的預算的配比那比較有可能的是怎麼樣的這個提高到哪個金額你們才能夠負擔"},{"start":81.983,"end":103.213,"text":"不過我想針對因為我們在送院的總預算裡面並沒有納入這個經費因為照原來這是四年調一次那我們在內部評估也覺得說應該啟動這個修法配合這些委員的一些意見所以不管他調多少我們都必須要去做額外的經費的爭取以現在來講就是說"},{"start":106.775,"end":133.249,"text":"每1000塊的話將近64億63.5億左右那這個部分我們就會考量到就是說在現在委員提的版本39個版本裡面最高是12000最低是沒有調的部分那我們設計是在這個之間是我們在經濟的負擔上是可以負擔的我要跟委員報告農業部的預算裡面有將近800萬是依法律義務支出的"},{"start":133.689,"end":145.783,"text":"然後特別是在農保還有一些相關的這些農業經濟的部分一年就花了大概四五百萬五百億去所以當我的一個財政結構太多是福利支出的時候對我們現在的農業經營是有影響的"},{"start":148.826,"end":177.423,"text":"所以我想後續會再跟委員討論我剛也在提出說到底多少是你覺得會有排擠效應的問題所以目前看起來的話就是因為院白沒過可是你在這邊可能沒有辦法說出來但是你們的主張是希望調高就是本期在這邊也跟部長來說明一下為什麼我們會主張說要調高是因為部長知不知道衛福部公告今年的最低生活費是多少1萬5"},{"start":179.065,"end":198.283,"text":"那是最低生活費那我們目前是八千一百一也就是大概只有一半而已那請問一下以現在這個物價高漲的部分如果我今天我老農我退休之後我只有八千一百一十元那請問部長我該怎麼樣來生活呢因為事實上我一天大概只有兩百七十要三餐"},{"start":198.763,"end":221.344,"text":"然後還要這個我的生活費還有另外就是說我的什麼水電啊相關的支出還有醫藥費年紀大了嘛就是很多醫藥的支出那請問270要怎麼過一天的生活我跟委員很簡單的幾個說明第一個說明就是說這個8110塊是一個我們政務體恤老農退休以後的一個福利的一個津貼給他那"},{"start":222.385,"end":248.888,"text":"第二個部分就是因為農業的這個職業他跟其他行業不一樣他沒有強制65歲一定退休那以現在的資訊來講65歲以上將近30萬人還在持續農業所以他也可以得到一些持續農業的所得那您關心的就是說如果他是一個孤獨的老人的部分這麼少的話那我相信還有其他的社會的福利制度包括醫療的包括其他的制度是可以來協助他的"},{"start":249.429,"end":263.969,"text":"對 但我剛提到嘛就以最低生活費就是兩百七而已剛剛我講的這些他可能三餐都不能溫飽尤其您提到說他還有百分之還有三十萬的人還在從事農業之處會不會是因為他如果不繼續從事農業他根本就沒有辦法溫飽"},{"start":265.451,"end":283.532,"text":"我跟委員報告從事農業它有它的一個使命感跟它的熱誠度所以其實有很多年紀大的這些農民願意持續農業他還是喜歡農業甚至有一些剛才有委員講的他每天會去尋那個田那個是他本身當然我們現在講你現在對"},{"start":285.074,"end":295.178,"text":"部長講的是一個他自己主動願意的但我現在講的是說如果他是因為沒有辦法溫飽才8100億我如果再不務農的話我繼續做的話可能沒有辦法做到尤其是現在美國關稅因為在談判的過程中也希望說我們能夠也許會朝著零關稅這樣子的一部分去談如果是這樣的狀況之下可以說是雪上加霜他們可能就更難求得溫飽"},{"start":310.024,"end":326.869,"text":"尤其是這還會影響什麼其實不是老農而已而是青農願不願意投入因為他會發覺我老了之後結果我這麼一點的老農今天我可能沒有辦法溫飽所以我還不如現在就趕快轉業或者是做別的事情所以這對我們的糧食的自給率有很大的一個問題所以針對這個部分是不是能夠請"},{"start":336.134,"end":349.009,"text":"農業部這邊可以算出一套就是我們要怎麼樣來去面對這個關稅的相關的問題不過我想關稅的部分那現在因為已經接近到最後的部分那我還是"},{"start":350.772,"end":371.571,"text":"確定我們農業部的立場在過去的談判過程中我們第一個確保糧食安全然後確保農民的受益這個我們是一定是堅守的部分再去談相關的這些議題所以關稅的部分我想等關稅所以部長在這邊會具體的承諾說絕對不會犧牲農民的權益我們不會犧牲農民權益是 所以說那如果真的要求零關稅怎麼辦"},{"start":373.313,"end":399.851,"text":"我覺得零關稅並不可怕有些零關稅是對我們產業反而有降低成本的部分然後有些零關稅可能是會做進口國的一些替代那不可否認的如果有一些產業受到一些短時間的衝擊的時候我們一定有支持系統但是我要跟委員報告我們在加入WTO的那一年也是大量的開放這個部分但是我想我們要對臺灣的農業是有信心的"},{"start":400.151,"end":417.081,"text":"我想不管是農業或是漁業啦其實針對這樣子的關稅到現在還沒有談定會不會零關稅這個部分其實大家都很憂慮啦所以我覺得農業部的保證跟農業部的作為是不是在真正來保護農民對於這個我們農民是很大的一個對 很大的一個信心請部長一定要堅守喔"},{"start":420.603,"end":434.346,"text":"然後另外就是這次的這個提案本席有提到這個排付條款那剛剛也聽到部長說這個原則上您也會同意那請問一下就是自住屋的部分您大概同意大概會調升多少"},{"start":435.049,"end":454.725,"text":"不過我想基本上我們會用土地的公告限制當作一個參考我剛才也一直強調農民一輩子辛辛苦苦賺的錢去買一棟房子他不會輕易的把它賣掉因為他是要自租的他也不會賣掉他不會去賣掉他不會為了生活而賣掉去租房子"},{"start":455.245,"end":477.408,"text":"所以我們一定要想辦法讓這些排富人條款拉高他們現在坐在這個祖傳的房子裡結果因為他價值變高結果他就沒有辦法就取消他的老農津貼所以讓他變成他是假富人但真貧窮那這個問題其實有蠻大的我相信我們未來提到立法院的版本應該可以讓委員們滿意"},{"start":479.109,"end":493.676,"text":"所以部長是針對這個部分你們已經把這個牌付的部分拉高到應該是大家的版本裡面大概都可以就幾乎大家的版本大概都可以涵蓋在裡面是嗎我們是朝這個方向啦我想部長就是您是守護這個我們農民農漁民的這個守護者還是希望說部長在所有的考量裡面要以農漁民來做這個最大的考量"},{"start":506.101,"end":531.951,"text":"那當然有很多的問題包括說包括說剛這個我們的題目就是我們現在的法案的這個暫行條例喔也是希望說因為放著暫行就會讓人家覺得好像隨時會取消所以針對這個部分也是希望部長能夠就是我們經過剛剛法制也已經說明了嘛不會有問題所以也希望說把這個暫行的部分我也跟委員報告從今天的報告我其實已經非常正面的回應委員的回應而不是用呼嚨的方式"},{"start":532.611,"end":543.705,"text":"去談所以我們一直希望說大家一起努力把這樣子的一個對老農老農的照顧考慮到各種不同面向的一個和平性以後做一個最好的一個決定好謝謝謝謝部長好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166664","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166664","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60abcde9d2fd50442663a8c7f6258665b253d00c89e76a212f50af9c3d7560ef6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:02:01 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裡面我看到裡面有包含興建實驗大樓還有採購一些關鍵設備譬如說西式冷凍機這種核心設備全球交集大概多久"},{"start":203.855,"end":214.921,"text":"這個部分我們可能要查詢一下再跟沒關係 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所以這個是很好的但是要馬上再複製那個我們可能還要再努力一下因為在其他領域我們並沒有像一個台積電這麼大的一家公司作為我們等於說商業上的一個後盾"},{"start":156.661,"end":184.952,"text":"不過部長當然台積電是我們的護國神山是但是我覺得未來在我們整個這個科技發展的領域裡面我想也我們也期待更多的這個台積電的護國神山出現是那所以我想未來怎麼樣針對這樣一個制度治理的核心原則針對我們未來包含AI也好 聲威也好甚至治安的一個政策上面這些屬於高風險的一個數位議題的部分能不能來做一個比較全方位的一個推動的處理的一個模式"},{"start":185.805,"end":204.629,"text":"是 我们会朝这个方向发展那我们就希望说第一个我们要制定各种规范然后另外一个这件事情很大的意义在于说善用民间的力量因为我们知道那个Semi-187这个标准会带来三种商机第一个是说认证本身就是一种生意再来就是说"},{"start":206.31,"end":232.727,"text":"輔導廠商通過認證又是一種生意再來是說提供資安的軟硬體設備去通過驗證又是一種生意所以台灣的資安產業對於這個CMI187非常的期待那同樣我們在打炸的作為上面我們也希望說我們讓這個打炸這個本身就變成一種生意就是你打炸還可以賺到錢那當然除了說服務政府以外還有服務民眾這個我們都希望說"},{"start":235.069,"end":253.608,"text":"生態系我想回歸到今天的我們的專題報告那當然我想我們在各部會的努力之下當然我們期待這個社群平台打造的一個成效能夠持續的努力讓我們的鄉親不被受到影響但是我們現在從數據上來看"},{"start":255.75,"end":272.65,"text":"光是高风险的金融投资诈骗广告从113年单周最高高达7万7千多件到114年11月当然平均已经降到了不到3000件但是我看到其实Meta他们也努力在台湾移除了"},{"start":273.15,"end":290.35,"text":"高達780萬則的一個詐騙廣告這個整個從官方也好從這個商業面也好我想我們應該是做這樣的一個最大的努力但是因為現在我們看到從網路詐騙的一個通報查詢網也累積通報了超過50萬則的可疑的一個訊息"},{"start":291.397,"end":319.347,"text":"那這些數字都可以證明當然我們政府介入之後平台已經動起來但是目前這樣的成效到底是屬於一個專案型的或是一個行政的一個推動成效還是被納入了一個只是一個可追蹤或者是一個比較型的一個指標我想我們不是看到一個數字的這個下降我們應該是期待說我們未來怎麼樣去隨時檢討修正我們一個未來一個治理的一個方向部長有沒有做一個這樣的一個檢討規劃"},{"start":320.507,"end":346.81,"text":"是 首先我們在應該這樣講我們現在抒發部在打詐我們是從三個方面著手第一個是法律面再來是科技面然後再來是商業面在法律面上面我們非常感謝立法院在去年通過了詐房條例那詐房條例通過以後我們就可以要求這些網路平台他第一個要做到廣告實名制然後再來是我們通知他有些詐騙訊息他必須在24小時之內下架"},{"start":347.45,"end":368.631,"text":"在科技面的話 我們就是利用網站通報查詢網以及DNSRPG等等這個技術我們就是利用民間的力量 由民間來通報我們也用AI的方式來通報 來巡查找到所有可疑的訊息 然後用自動分案讓那個當事人 譬如說仿冒謝金河的訊息就找謝金河來確認等等"},{"start":369.452,"end":388.366,"text":"然后再来就是商业面商业面的话我们就是去跟这些大型平台去跟他们劝说说你们不能做一个旁观者你们必须加入我们打炸的行列这在商业上对你们的商业商誉是有帮助你们商誉好的话你们才有更长久的生意所以这个是我们的整体的策略以上报告"},{"start":389.647,"end":413.122,"text":"老實講這個詐騙手法日新月異沒錯上有政策 下有對策所以我們現行的這個治理工具到底能不能去適應每一樣的一個狀況你們推出一個政策還沒有實施之前人家就已經玩新的花樣了是 沒錯尤其我們在政科我們很多的長輩也好 年輕人也好真的很容易受到這些網路的一個詐騙的行為"},{"start":414.403,"end":438.715,"text":"那所以我想尤其現在我們看到包含透過這個假贈品假合作釣魚連結甚至投資的一些管道讓我們的民眾一步步掉入陷阱我想我們也是期待這樣的一個公開廣告型的一個詐騙的處理手段我想我們應該要加強一個質疑的力道那針對這樣廣告型跟私訊型的詐騙我想我們有掌握相關的資訊嗎"},{"start":440.536,"end":466.734,"text":"那個首先就是說委員講的完全沒錯因為打詐我常常講就是好人跟壞人之間不斷的攻防我們好人我們政府一直把各種詐騙管道給堵住了但是這個詐騙集團會變招他會找新的那個詐騙的那個方式他一直在一直在變所以我們一定要加快我們的反應速度那另外一個委員剛剛也提到就是說那個應該是通訊那個像說LINE這樣的通訊軟體那在LINE的這個通訊軟體因為我們沒辦法"},{"start":470.436,"end":492.386,"text":"沒辦法去看個人通訊的內容因為我們是自由民主法治的國家但是我們會要求就是說一旦民眾開始報案我們會要求LINE盡快讓我們可以找到對方的帳號到底是誰之前在一年多以前我們去內政部警政署去要求去跟LINE調資料"},{"start":493.226,"end":517.482,"text":"平均要八個禮拜那現在我們已經縮短到三天那我們的期待是說以後呢縮短到一天以下這樣我們可以很快的把壞人抓到部長這個很重要啦是不能因為這樣子用三天的時間啊這三天不知道還要六天對啊對啊這個沒錯那我們也看到這個馬來西亞有跟進澳洲這個社群禁令研議把平台導入身份驗證我們有沒有可能研究這個方案"},{"start":517.982,"end":539.339,"text":"我們現在有在跟那個平台正在討論就是我們現在蘇發布有一個數位憑證皮夾有個數位憑證皮夾的技術事實上我們可以利用這種方式來驗證使用者的身分這當然就是說因為我們台灣這個是一個非常自由民主的國家可能我們首先就是要凝聚"},{"start":540.74,"end":557.868,"text":"大家的共識如果說大家有共識認為說可以做實名制或類實名制的話或者是在某一做某些行為的時候必須有那個實名制譬如說我購買一些比較危險的物品或者是這個我們會利用數位憑證評價的機制來設法來驗證使用者的身份"},{"start":558.348,"end":583.878,"text":"對 我想就最近這個北捷這個事情一樣嘛我想能夠做這樣怎麼樣嚴密的一個針對一個市民登記登錄的部分能夠做一個查證那我想這個打詐跟這個防堵這個暴力行為絕對不是只有公務部門是 沒錯平台業者也要有責任是 不能讓他賺幾年啦我們應該要有這個蘿蔔跟棍子的這個力道一起去處理這件事情好不好我們會嚴格要求非常謝謝委員的指導 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166667","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166667","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d603c07d6376ce4c4f18f4e93bf07b6087f40144ed783f34330d6c50673e5555f625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"13:15:42 - 13:24:18","影片長度":"00:08:36","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T13:15:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T13:24:18+08:00","duration":516,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.04221875,"end":27.452843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.10409375,"end":18.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.37784375,"end":21.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.090343750000002,"end":25.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.094093750000003,"end":29.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.878468750000003,"end":31.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.009093750000005,"end":40.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.986593750000004,"end":57.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.13159375,"end":59.954093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.70096875,"end":61.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.69221875,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.20221875,"end":90.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.13909375,"end":94.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.97409375000001,"end":94.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.90221875,"end":98.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.24346875,"end":98.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.42909375,"end":98.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.56409375000001,"end":109.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.65096875,"end":122.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.73534375000001,"end":109.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.80284375000001,"end":109.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.81971875,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.39346875000001,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.16784375,"end":124.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.46284375,"end":131.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.45346875,"end":134.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":135.40221875,"end":135.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.75659375,"end":137.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.37221875,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":143.51909375,"end":150.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.66159375,"end":149.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.76284375,"end":149.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.06659375,"end":157.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.96409375000002,"end":159.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.36909375000002,"end":185.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.06096875,"end":193.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.51534375,"end":208.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.77471875,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.96409375000002,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.03159375,"end":212.25096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.25096875000003,"end":212.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.30159375000002,"end":212.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.62221875,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.02596875,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.52659375000002,"end":235.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.20159375,"end":231.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.74096875,"end":264.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.56346875,"end":264.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.58034375,"end":264.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.95159375000003,"end":266.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.78659375,"end":268.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.50784375,"end":272.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.43159375,"end":285.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.32784375,"end":287.96909375},{"speaker":"SP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照顧我們的國保部長你支持不支持"},{"start":208.84,"end":229.122,"text":"拿357億來照顧國保年金跟老農津貼不過我想我們針對農民津貼的部分我想我們會根據我們希望提高的額度跟所有的經費我希望是受到政府的支持是 所以你也不反對其他人也增加農民要提款 其他也要提款 有支持嗎不是說包括比農民還要少"},{"start":230.743,"end":250.853,"text":"我想以農業部的立場就是要考慮到跟八大社福基金的和民性嘛是的 所以呢 因為比老農金還少的就是國保年金我們希望最弱勢的往上提 包括我們農民該行後往下看所以我們來問陳部長 其實目前我們的排富呢 其實都是算這個五百萬其實你知道在農村地區啊 農地是不說該多少"},{"start":254.295,"end":266.567,"text":"但是如果說農產所在建地其實他的地價會調整所以其實有些老人家退了他還是務農但是呢他的因為他的地價上漲被排除 有沒有這種情況有那我們希望把他合理調整 支持嗎"},{"start":267.85,"end":285.196,"text":"我們現在剛剛的報告也是朝這個方向在做很好謝謝好那我們今天的訴求大概到這裡往下看來那所以如果說部長按照如果我們今天老農津貼這些條例按照農業部報行政院送來這裡通過明年來得及實施嗎"},{"start":287.338,"end":306.334,"text":"明年要不要實施有沒有預算一個前提就是我們的總預算要進到實質審查以後總預算通過以後然後我們再根據相關的規定去做請證照說啦其實就算今年修法通過明年應該來不及因為後年嘛"},{"start":306.414,"end":331.053,"text":"因為要在會計年度前四個月前提出嘛所以說你如果說這個統計要賺什麼也是要後年賺的每年拿出來嘛是不是這樣我們是期待用向行政院爭取那個專案的一個請證的一個經過那要立法院同意嘛不過這個沒有這個基本上就是預算如果如果通過因為預算沒有通過的時候那相對的所有的這些二倍金或是災害準備金來我們請一下邱專委邱專委來得及嗎"},{"start":332.421,"end":356.124,"text":"今年我們通過這個條例如果有調升的話明年預算現在連審都還沒審是不是後年才來得及報告委員其實115年度的預算因為目前還沒有真正付為討論所以可以來得及所以我們明年再審這個年度預算反而比較好你是這個意思嗎"},{"start":357.942,"end":375.436,"text":"還是說我們這個通過了後年可以編入後年度的預算還是說連今年都 連明年都還沒審後年都不用想了到底是哪一種其實應該要搭配法案它到底是什麼時候生效那如果法案審過了明年生效什麼時候可以開始實施"},{"start":377.219,"end":392.032,"text":"明年生效的話因為好了我好像問錯人了請休息往下一頁所以我還是覺得贊成陳部長的我們今年審明年度如果可以趕快審過才有機會不然的話連明年度不要說了連後年度都很難"},{"start":392.592,"end":413.197,"text":"對我簡單的講就是我們大家都有共識通過這個法案會增加的時候所需的經費如果總預算不通過的話什麼都不用談很好就這句話總預算不通過什麼都不用講來最後我們請教一下我們的那個一點點時間請教一下我們那個社保師社保師你的名字很好台語叫曾慧不是慧 曾慧好那個曾慧副市長來"},{"start":415.137,"end":437.798,"text":"就是我們的勞保年是救治勞退勞退的救治是不是有人已經超15年加上15年已經拿到45個基數現在還沒退休的那請問這些人這個是問對人的嘛應該是問我是問剛剛是問什麼我是問勞保局吧我叫錯人了對不起應該因為你的名字太好記了應該問白局長 抱歉"},{"start":440.628,"end":466.875,"text":"這個這樣的話是不是我們應該這樣的人有沒有還在職場上有他接下來的到退休之前他的領的薪水想要增加有沒有可能他已經救治啦都放在雇主那裡啊退休的時候把雇主的這些結清而已嘛可不可以他現在跟雇主商量好願意讓他帶到我們新制然後他在新制可以每個月存6%自體有沒有覺得這樣可以考慮"},{"start":468.482,"end":483.605,"text":"那個委員剛才提到的就是提高勞工的一個特休保障我想這個是大家都想努力的方向勞動部也會往這樣的方向來演繹那委員提的這個建議我會待會去請我們勞動部這邊來做你覺得如果擴大勞退自體的部分有沒有幫助我們勞工的退休保障增加"},{"start":484.285,"end":509.135,"text":"擴大勞工自體對勞工的生活保障是會有幫助好所以我最後結論主席站起來了所以是不是請研議救治勞退基數以滿為尚未退休的勞工他的救治勞退結清經僱主同意協議後全數轉入新制的大水庫剩餘的工作年資得以自體勞退增加其自修保障這個部分是不是可以一個月內跟我們勞動部回去一下提出一個報告是好可以謝謝部長謝謝局長謝謝副市長謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝"},{"start":515.506,"end":515.527,"text":"好"}]}},{"id":"166592","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166592","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d6098f7982e969b84608f4e93bf07b6087fb335d4796f3eb88dc7f22cfed140dbaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"09:08:35 - 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Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T09:08:35+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T09:09:48+08:00","duration":73,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6215937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.16096875,"end":5.262218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.709093750000001,"end":68.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.88471875,"end":72.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.79596875,"end":73.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.18409375,"end":73.72409375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.09,"end":0.437,"text":"天生命"},{"start":8.409,"end":35.289,"text":"謝謝主席喔本席是針對老農福利津貼暫行條例的第4條修正草案本席跟其他的委員17人考量通貨膨脹物價上揚對於退休農民的生活已經形成了巨大的壓力然而老農津貼每4年才會參照消費者物價指數的成長率進行調整現行的調整週期恐怕難以反映到當前的經濟現實"},{"start":37.29,"end":43.712,"text":"所以在第四條的部分為了反映實際的社會經濟的情勢應該改為兩年檢討一次以利於維繫農民的福利同時這個津貼的基數也應該從現行的8,110元調整為1萬元"},{"start":55.757,"end":68.129,"text":"而且現在的物價指數也一直都通貨膨脹的提高所以也應該要照成長率來提高所以這樣子的話才可以落實了保障農民老年退休的生活的初衷謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166594","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166594","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60c08f9701b41b78b4edbd2ae366782b1ab335d4796f3eb88d4c93c959780201415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:01:36 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請主席邀請訴法部林部長林部長請還有我們內政務刑事局詐欺犯罪防制中心張主任張主任請委員早安部長早部長麥克風開一下部長早 還有主任早"},{"start":24.985,"end":52.928,"text":"我們知道其實現在詐騙非常猖獗也是國人深惡痛絕的所以不管朝野大家都對這個議題非常的關心也都是一致要求我們政府一定要展現這個打詐的這個決心跟魄力那我們看到在這個165打詐儀表版專網上線之後所公布的這個就是財損的數字還有這個受理的數字"},{"start":54.07,"end":62.219,"text":"在113年8月份我們是剛開始公告公開就是揭露這樣子的一個資訊那時候的財損這個數字高達138.3億那件數的話是"},{"start":71.227,"end":95.937,"text":"21,244件那我們看到截至目前為止就是我們11月份就是今年的11月份整個件數就是已經就是下降到13,559件然後財損的數字也下降到59.91億就數字來看我們是有下降的一個趨勢可是對國人的感受來說"},{"start":97.157,"end":124.465,"text":"部長跟主任你們覺得呢我們訴發部這邊負責的是那個網路上面的詐騙訊息那現在那個網路詐騙訊息經過我們成立那個網詐通報查詢網然後再來就是請那個Meta還有Line加入我們打詐行列以後網路上的詐騙訊息應該已經是減少了但是現在有很多網路詐騙已經轉為其他的方式譬如說用直接用手機那個打電話甚至於登門"},{"start":125.525,"end":153.204,"text":"造訪等等那這些事情我們還是會持續跟內政部密切合作因為他們在詐騙的過程中多少還是會運用到像LINE這樣的那個那個網路通訊媒體等等那我們還是會持續想辦法繼續讓這個數字往下降就是說就打架表板所揭露的這個數字就是受理數字跟財損數字都有呈現下降的趨勢這個本席當然予以肯定那我們要感謝我們所有"},{"start":153.843,"end":170.491,"text":"相關的這個單位通力的一個合作可是我們也看到現在整個詐騙的一個結構犯罪結構也正在轉變其中一項很明顯的就是這個外籍詐騙車手人數的急劇攀升這個也是我們從警政署這邊調閱的統計資料可以看得出來的"},{"start":173.84,"end":195.574,"text":"就是從110年到今年114年涉案的外籍車手的人數真的是暴增所以就這個部分我們要怎樣去就是說有什麼樣的實質的作為來針對防止外籍移工淪為詐騙的車手"},{"start":197.495,"end":214.398,"text":"是謝謝委員 先跟委員致謝事實上這個我先跟各委員報告說其實我投身在打仗的時間大概已經二十六七年了事實上我跟大家報告其實在最近這幾年事實上真的相關的包括所有委員的督促"},{"start":214.798,"end":235.28,"text":"然後鼓勵我們真的在最近這兩三年真的已經是大幅下降尤其從去年到今年這個真的已經發揮功效所以實際上要讓這個詐騙你說絕跡減少到很少很少這不是一蹴可擊但是實際上真的減少到59%我們有看到這個是真的是相關部會大家合作的成果"},{"start":235.72,"end":262.122,"text":"那再來其實針對有關這一個外籍測核這個事情實際上在今年1月呢其實在行政院打壓中心包括我們部長署長局長其實都已經一直在要求外籍測核它會高發的原因事實上從去年12月我們就已經有注意到包括國籍它轉變到某一個國籍因為我現在不能說是哪一個國籍它的外籍暴增其實這個會暴增的原因其實就是因為跟我們的打炸策略有關因為我們強力的包括像關懷"},{"start":264.464,"end":292.446,"text":"臨櫃關懷銀行非常的幫忙所以他們轉向就用現場去提款車手那因為我們對於車手的刑責加重所以他們就會去找少年找外籍那外籍會增加原因是因為他們會利用短期簽證進來的一個原因然後甚至包括戴口罩所以這個部分其實我們也在想方設法包括跟移民署還有跟這一個我們的警政署國際我們都有在想說如何透過廉政中心包括"},{"start":293.386,"end":321.469,"text":"移民的單位把這個身份辨識出來所以這個部分跟委員報告其實這個部分我們目前包括最近都開了好幾次的會議希望說能夠間接相關的系統包括我們在全國的行事工作會報州局長其實就有預定我們要整合一個平台讓各縣市的這一個從熱點車手發現到的車手戴口罩的影像如果是外籍的話如何間接到移民署的系統立刻辨識出來在他出境前"},{"start":322.289,"end":344.708,"text":"來進行攔截 謝謝就如同張主任剛剛說的因為我們打詐就是有成效所以致使這個詐騙集團他們真的也就是會變形就是這個結構就在改變那我們也看到有這個打詐專組的檢察官有指出就是我們為了防堵詐騙所以各銀行加強這個管控轉帳機制還有降低額度"},{"start":346.289,"end":368.377,"text":"所以這個詐團線上取款的門路就受阻了所以就是增加這個面交的這樣子的一個車手需要這個大量的這樣的車手所以進而就是吸引更多的外籍人士跟移工來就是從事這樣子的一個非法的一個行為那因為這個移工的涉案的部分我們又可以從他們的涉案的一個身分別"},{"start":369.057,"end":392.697,"text":"依這個合法移工非法移工外籍學生以及持觀光簽證入境的這樣子的分類我們可以看到非法移工跟持觀光簽證的這個件數是非常的高那剛剛主任有提到就是說他們會利用這個觀光簽證短期入境然後來從事這樣子的一個非法行為那他們就是說就這樣子的一個"},{"start":393.877,"end":422.477,"text":"身份別的一個結構來看他們要能夠說在這樣子一個短期的時間進來然後可以受到指揮他們應該就是透過社群平台透過網路那這部分我們要怎樣去加強比如說包括我們要怎樣透過這個網路平台去宣導讓這些外籍移工提醒他們不要去從事這個非法行為那另外一方面就說要怎樣從這個社群平台去就是可以去就是"},{"start":423.538,"end":426.888,"text":"注意到這些非法的移工的行為"},{"start":429.913,"end":456.239,"text":"OK 我們會朝著那個委員所建議和指導的方向我們去進行那此外也跟委員報告現在我們已經跟台灣幾家比較大的金融機構合作就是說如果有人去提款的時候戴著口罩或甚至於戴著那個機車安全帽的話那這個ATM那個自動提款機就會要求他脫下他的口罩否則就不會吐款給他像這種科技的手段我們會持續進行"},{"start":457.219,"end":481.617,"text":"是好那我们刚刚委员会有很多委员在关心这个小红书的这个部分那我们知道就是说这个社群平台也真的是变成是诈骗集团的一个温床跟管道所以我们就是目前就是相关的这个平台业者有没有配合我们这个打诈的这个政策"},{"start":484.504,"end":507.928,"text":"在目前配合的狀況像是Google它配合的狀況一向都很好然後Meta 原來大概一年多以前它配合狀況比較不好那現在已經好很多了那如同我之前報告的它現在就是利用我們送給它的24萬多筆的詐騙資料他們訓練他們的AI模型結果主動下架了超過780萬則針對台灣的詐騙訊息那LINE也都還好"},{"start":511.849,"end":538.918,"text":"是那有配合的當然我們也要就是感謝他們那對不配合的我們怎麼處理所以跟委員報告就是我們依據可以配合的就是必須要用29跟39來去做管理那實際上確確實實這一兩年來確實相關的七個平台他們都有在進步那我們在針對小紅樹部分因為實在是聯繫請他們去做相關的配套措施他們都確實沒有理所以"},{"start":539.298,"end":565.974,"text":"我們包括其實在打詐欺表白裡面我們針對各種類型的詐騙不管你是很高的或者是很少我們都會想方設法當然我們會有權重哪一個是優先那針對你這個無法管的我們就只好採取就是依照42條在依法行政的方法之下給他停止解析跟限制接取所以這個部分其實我們是還是必須要想方設法不管是哪一種的詐騙類型我們都會盡量去做一個防堵以上"},{"start":566.627,"end":593.934,"text":"是就是其實就是小紅書因為他對我們政府的這個詐騙的這個政策就是我們要求他的部分他就是不配合嘛對不對就是已讀不回嘛然後包括他在台灣也沒有這個代理人沒有法人代表所以就是說對他們沒有遵守我們的這個法律當然我們也有權利來要求他就是我們跟他停止解析嘛也不是禁止嘛是不是那是不一樣的對不對"},{"start":594.775,"end":620.222,"text":"我們是針對他的詐欺網站那因為詐欺網站他的Domain下面的那一個就是App那個當然他有時候會可能相同但是也會有不同的狀況所以我們實際上是針對他的詐欺網址下面的Domain的那一個網域是所以張主任你要講清楚針對他詐欺的網頁不然剛剛有委員在關心說有女性朋友沒有辦法得到美容資訊事實上這個美容資訊"},{"start":621.082,"end":649.082,"text":"包括Meta Google其實都很多啦不一定說一定要靠這個小紅書才能夠得到這樣子的一個資訊那其實我們也從就是國家安全局所這個揭露的資料來看我們可以看到說國家安全局最近他有表示就是說針對中國製的應用程式進行資安檢測共計檢測包括違反各自權限等15項指標小紅書APP全數不合格"},{"start":649.822,"end":658.03,"text":"所以對這樣的嚴重的問題就是事實上就是說對於小紅書示警的反而第一個示警的反而是中國"},{"start":659.552,"end":680.491,"text":"中華人民共和國這個張主任知道嗎部長知道嗎 包委員我知道他們在去年吧還是前年我忘了確實有揭露啦那其實好像是今年小紅書其實有針對他們的部分也有做立刻的改善我記得也確實是有這一個新聞的揭露以上"},{"start":680.911,"end":709.198,"text":"是好就是說其實有時候這個他們就是會利用就是民眾消費者他們就是對某項商品的一個興趣就來就是透過這樣子的方式來獲得他們的個資所以這個也是一個非常嚴重的一個問題所以事實上我們就是說對於政府打炸的一個策略跟政策我們都是予以支持的那我們也希望就是這個在野黨的立委不要一邊"},{"start":710.058,"end":726.278,"text":"要求還是一邊批評說政府打詐沒有成效那一邊又對於政府的這個就是相關的一個手段又予以就是批評這樣子謝謝非常感謝委員的支持與指教 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166614","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166614","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60a179188f0969df791d90d5b7b1a8c99991760b03f9a190b7e2ce94d99c1cf0755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:36:41 - 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林部長請來內政部我們張主任林部長還有行政院指揮中心的王子密來 主任 子密請委員長好部長是"},{"start":27.133,"end":45.768,"text":"我想你變才無礙 但是到了立法院 我要建議你多做 少變你還說沒有 我現在在講我的對你的建言 你開始就要變了 你還沒有"},{"start":46.741,"end":63.95,"text":"所以我跟你講沒有事實你可以變因為政務官捍衛你的政策這是理所當然但是不要一提到你的夜館的東西跟議題你就開始要變我們知道你很認真啊"},{"start":64.89,"end":82.189,"text":"你從政治的時候 起來當部長的時候 你也很認真啊可是問題 所看到 民意代表所看到的東西根本打詐就沒有進步嘛越打越詐 那是一個事實嘛所以 部長"},{"start":83.695,"end":98.709,"text":"你也知道我長期在我們交通委員會我對你這些為什麼要給你建言說實在的真的探討問題不是用辯的就可以解決因為現在數位部"},{"start":101.511,"end":123.385,"text":"慢慢進入狀況這是事實慢慢去改進也是事實可是不要忘了立法委員在給你的建言有時候用狡辯的方式我是不認同這種做法這特別我要提醒你來那個小紅書剛才召委已經談過了這個議題也吵了很大來"},{"start":127.725,"end":147.742,"text":"部長你認定小紅書它是平台還是網頁小紅書它有網站事實上它有網站也有APP它本身是一個平台好 那個來張主任請問"},{"start":150.188,"end":172.679,"text":"到底是行政院詐騙指揮中心要你們進或者你們要進的請問一下報告委員首先先跟委員報告其實在打詐的策略東西我知道啦是你們主動要進的或者行政院"},{"start":173.854,"end":188.38,"text":"那個打炸中心要你們進的我要的是這個答案幫委員我們針對這個四大業的七個平台以及這個小紅書衛納館的平台其實我們一直都會去做搜報及受理包案所以本身我們就會去做是張主任我問你是誰進的吧"},{"start":193.522,"end":213.218,"text":"因為現在不是我們數位部主動禁嘛是內政部上來的東西那有沒有受行政院之指示說這個要禁 因為你們持有的理由就是詐騙金額非常高嘛是嗎 是你們主動的 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接下來我要特別再請問部長花絕到整個不滑最近 下張"},{"start":528.444,"end":557.974,"text":"最近有詐騙升級又第二次詐騙可是這個詐騙手法過去他是用什麼投資等等這些現在更厲害的是變成用司法假冒利是破壞司法的信任請問一下來張主任你們現在有沒有針對這個問題去做去做這個追查有沒有"},{"start":558.615,"end":572.756,"text":"A班委員我們這個部分是持續都在追查而且一直在想方設法可是現在是非常猖獗張主任帶回去是比照這個就是所謂的二次詐騙跟委員報告其實我們都有在注意"},{"start":573.362,"end":590.906,"text":"有注意但是非常猖狂啦你有時候平台跟那個進去看一看為什麼本席要提出這些謝委員是二次詐騙是非常嚴重第二個利用律師破壞司法的信任那更嚴重"},{"start":591.306,"end":610.428,"text":"是 所以包括委員所以我們一直在強一直在大力的推動潛在被害人的制度就是希望各相關部會獲得這個我們已經撈出的潛在被害人希望包括二次詐騙的希望各相關部會能夠配合去辦理那實際上各部會都非常的積極在努力包括公司協議好啦 那個張主任我希望啊"},{"start":611.129,"end":634.34,"text":"我希望你們要去注重這些正式跟你們檢舉用專案去做這些這個跟生病一樣發現病狀在哪邊我們要馬上醫治該切除的要切除該吃藥的要吃藥所以現在這個是非常嚴重的喔所以張主任你要把資料把它帶回去那我也希望"},{"start":635,"end":662.911,"text":"我們林部長這裡如果依照這些因為我們有自己的主管司所以希望他們也可以去發解問題不需要因為內政部也不需要任何一個單位發現不華發現是詐騙那當然我們要主動出擊這一點我要勉勵我們數位部林部長跟我們各司還有另外張主任要把這個問題"},{"start":664.071,"end":684.542,"text":"把他專案帶回去這非常嚴重是 謝委員非常嚴重所以這個本席在這裡要拜託部長還有拜託我們主任這個部分要把他當成一回事這是詐騙的溫床盡快解決破滑失滑的信任這非常之嚴重的好不好好 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我們事實上速發部這邊速產署非常的主動我們今年就是主動發現透過能量登錄我們主動發現像說台灣里"},{"start":578.266,"end":603.085,"text":"可不可以說明一下 我們請副署長說明一下好 是 委員我們針對這個第三方支付的部分我們其實是百分之百的去做行政查核那一旦我們在發現它的狀況有問題的時候我們就會提供情資給我們的相關的檢調單位跟法務部所以因為這樣其實我們這一次的台灣禮的破獲其實事實上是跟法務部一起共同來破獲這樣子的一個集團"},{"start":604.306,"end":626.302,"text":"部長最後我提醒你相關的數位經濟的防詐措施數位部有基本的對策跟做法但成效還是不髒有基本的規範這個要繼續努力啦我們會努力啦但是不至於成效不髒啦我們剛才那個報告也看到其實我們最近應該是做出一些成績出來了成效不髒這不是我在交通委員會的質詢"},{"start":627.717,"end":655.176,"text":"這是全民對於政府對於打詐的努力雖然有看到努力但是成效還是要繼續我們會努力我們絕對會努力但是也給我們的同仁一些鼓勵吧我想我們這個下架了這麼多的那個詐騙訊息然後我們就是因為這個詐騙有線上線下鼓勵要有督促也要有當然對於防詐是我們的一個基本責任保障人民的財產安全也是我們重要的責任當然謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166612","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166612","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60005c7310d31a11241d90d5b7b1a8c99991760b03f9a190b731f66945a42017395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:12:00 - 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主席謝謝 麻煩請我們速發部林部長好 速發部林部長部長好委員早安好 部長詐騙以及數位平台的一個治理跟讓國人安心我想這都是非常重要的事情是我們先想請教一下上個禮拜五其實在國內發生一二一九這一個無差別的暴力攻擊事件是也造成人心惶惶"},{"start":34.891,"end":56.965,"text":"其中這一個凶嫌 1219這個凶嫌他去購買了相關的不管是煙霧彈不管是瓦斯噴槍等等的東西他都是透過網路購物當然現在警方也去做一個通盤的釐清發覺是說這一些網路購物基本上都是依法可以販售但是也衍生了一些問題就是說有些"},{"start":57.913,"end":86.349,"text":"正常的生存遊戲玩家或者說軍用品店他其實賣煙霧彈他並不是要造成恐慌而是真的可能野外求生需要使用那大家會覺得是說如果說在網路平台上面可以任意購買那他捏造一個理由就可以來購買到其實無形當中也怕後續會有模仿效應等等所以有人提倡是說是不是要通盤的來檢討甚至說在網路上販售這一些相關產品也需要有實名制"},{"start":87.249,"end":113.328,"text":"部長你認為呢是關於這個實名制這件事情當然是說如果我們在網路上實習實名制像中國大陸他們的做法那的確是可以有效的嚇阻犯罪但是另外一方面也會有隱私的問題因為我們台灣是一個自由民主法治的國家我們對於這種議題我們比較歐美國家怎麼做歐美的話具有了解譬如說我在美國購買什麼東西都不用在Amazon上面歐美的槍支"},{"start":114.329,"end":132.049,"text":"他就是完全殖民你要有license才可以但是槍刺的部分其他的部分就是說這一些像煙霧彈我們以前沒有想過煙霧彈他會造成這種恐怖攻擊恐慌他想說是應該生存遊戲玩家等等但目前現在已經看到他就真實發生在上個禮拜五"},{"start":132.569,"end":155.758,"text":"是 那我们现在抒发部打算是第一个就是说对于特殊的这些品项就是有这个安全疑虑的品项我们会跟各个部会比如说跟内政部跟卫福部我们跟他合作第一个就是说可能有些品项我们会真的是会采取实名制的方式然后在领货的时候因为我们现在抒发部推出一个数位凭证皮夹那我们可以在网路上认证你的身份"},{"start":156.418,"end":176.446,"text":"然後再譬如說你如果到超商去領貨的話那也是可以在超商利用這個數位憑證皮夾的功能去認證這個身份這個事情我們有在討論所以部長剛剛講到兩點第一就是說本企業不是無條件的所有網路購物都要實名制是沒錯該給國人基本的消費者的權利或者是說你購買的隱私證"},{"start":178.127,"end":204.773,"text":"本期覺得尊重但是就是您剛有提到現在是先政府部門先討論有哪些品項可能他會確實有一些風險以及危險性存在還有就是說他應該是在特殊管道譬如說生存遊戲玩家他一次買個兩個四個煙霧彈這沒有問題但如果說他一次買一箱兩箱然後他沒有辦法說明理由他也不是幫團隊買的那可能我們就會懷疑是說你一次買一箱兩箱囤貨你要幹嘛"},{"start":206.653,"end":233.578,"text":"完全同意委員的看法所以說我們會檢討什麼樣的一個品項再來就是說針對跟社群平台業者拍賣平台業者也來討論是說那我們怎麼樣來加強這個實名制甚至您剛剛有提到就是速發部最近提到的數位憑證皮夾來做一個連結什麼時候這一些會進行因為我知道內政委員會在禮拜一的時候也有開會也有說要討論這個實名制的一個部分那所以什麼時候會確認哪一些品項要"},{"start":234.502,"end":259.759,"text":"一個list因為這個品項應該是各個主管機關譬如說那個槍支可能是我了解是內政部內政部然後藥品的話其實現在最大的問題是在藥品這個是衛福部那我們找他們開會那另外我們訴發部這邊主要是所以訴發部我們比較積極主動負責一點因為網路上是一個現在很多人就會匿名買到東西或是說他假冒他的身份買東西"},{"start":260.62,"end":284.481,"text":"事實上跟委員報告就是在禮拜一我們已經找了台灣的幾個主要的網路平台我們已經跟他開會那其實在會議中我們也談到這件事情那幾個國內本土的電商都非常的積極主動他們也主動提到這件事情他們希望說由我們速發部這邊來主責然後他們願意全力配合所以速發部可以在多久時間內把這件事情確認一個月內是不是"},{"start":285.437,"end":310.224,"text":"一個月內當然是說我們這個只能是一個規劃就是當然要實施的話那個可能還會牽涉到立法但是一個月內找相關部會先把list列出來然後也找平台因為你講說禮拜一本席肯定你的作為喔禮拜五1219發生這個事情禮拜一我們速發部就會找相關的平台來去先做初步的討論那怎麼樣把它媒合起來讓"},{"start":313.455,"end":326.079,"text":"99%我想要買東西的都可以在網路上順暢無虞但是我們也利用這個機會把有心人士故意你買這個東西來是要製造恐慌的我們把它給阻絕掉至少多"},{"start":327.279,"end":356.106,"text":"障礙多一個成本讓他在購買的時候就會想說很不容易購買而增加他的一些困難度 是不是事實上這個有分成兩個部分第一個就是說有些品項我們是希望說在購買的時候就限制你必須先證明了身份你才能去買那另外就是說有些品項我們是希望說你購買了以後我們留下足夠的那個機證到時候出事的話我們警政機關可以把你這個人找到"},{"start":357.046,"end":372.674,"text":"也是可以阻絕一些犯罪好所以說這些品項的一個清單以及因為你剛剛講說有些品項如果說還需要有身份認證的話那可能說不定還牽涉到修法或是說可能是經濟部等相關部會的一些夜館所以訴發部主動來找相關部會來開會把釐清"},{"start":374.535,"end":402.137,"text":"那一個月內至少有個方向出來讓國人可以知道後續要怎麼走好嗎好沒問題來再來另外第二個部分喔就是在這一次發生這個1219的隨機殺人事件之後其實網路上有很多模仿的訊息是我完全沒有辦法接受本期完全沒有辦法接受你是用什麼開玩笑啦算命啦夢到啦來去散播這樣子的一個謠言這個不應該是在這個時候造成社會的恐慌那"},{"start":403.178,"end":429.936,"text":"我想請教在這一個部分裡面速發部有沒有什麼樣的一個因應未來如果說造成一個重大社會事件的時候來去散佈這樣的謠言我們能夠怎麼做跟譬如說網路平台我不是要做言論的審查跟控管可是當已經出現模仿效應或錯誤威脅的資訊的散播的時候能不能跟社群平台來溝通至少短時間內它的觸及這樣子類似"},{"start":433.098,"end":457.265,"text":"的惡意的訊息要觸及要先降低來做一個查證來 部長非常同意委員的看法那處理這類的訊息我們有兩個層面第一個在法律的層面如果說這個訊息本身它就已經觸法了那各個主管機關就會通知我們訴發部或者是由我們訴發部就會通知那個各個那個平台那他們就有責任有法律的責任必須下架"},{"start":457.705,"end":475.394,"text":"那另外一个是各个平台都有他们的社群守则像是Meta Facebook他们就有他们的社群守则那社群守则因为这是商业行为那我们会第一个我们会跟他们商讨确定他们的社群守则里面要尽到他们的社会责任把这些下架那他因为"},{"start":475.774,"end":493.159,"text":"如果是透過社群守則的話他們通常會用AI的方式然後也會用自動化的方式先一旦偵測到有疑似這種製造恐慌或者是不當的言論他們就會降低觸及或甚至直接先本席為什麼會提這一點因為本席記得應該是兩三年前是"},{"start":493.819,"end":513.628,"text":"國外發生校園的槍擊事件當時的兇嫌還用直播的方式所以當直播的方式看到的時候社群媒體平台馬上把那個直播第一封閉第二降低觸及因為他看到的是血腥的畫面直播他不可能讓一樣很多人馬上進來觀賞嘛"},{"start":515.049,"end":543.817,"text":"對不對 所以一樣這一次1.2.1.9這個兇嫌他可能他犯案的時候沒有開直播但是相關的畫面以及後續本席要強調的是後續造成什麼在捷運上有什麼攻擊的預告在高鐵上有什麼攻擊的預告徒增社會的動盪跟不安以及這完全錯誤的訊息我們都應該要由司法單位來去做研辦並且也應該要跟社群媒體平台來溝通就像您剛剛所講的 對不對"},{"start":544.497,"end":570.937,"text":"好 来最后我也在一分钟的时间现在小红书当然我实在话讲每一个社群平台我都要一样的标准没有任何我不允许任何人用社群媒体平台来去做诈骗的工具但也一样我们要对症下药就不是说只是意识形态但是没有对症下药我请教什么时候小红书我们现在要求说要把它APP给关掉"},{"start":571.933,"end":600.867,"text":"目前並沒有說要把APP關掉這個那不然我們之前討論都是討論不是 內政部不是講說小紅書要求他要下架要關掉然後不能讓國人來看是 這件事情是由內政部決定然後執行的機關是TWNICTWNIC是一個法人機構那監管機關是出發布那我們就是既然那據我們的了解就是"},{"start":601.887,"end":618.363,"text":"就是內政部發文給TWNIC要求的是封阻一個網域一個Domain name那並沒有要求TWNIC把那個小紅書的APP下架那詳細的情況可能要問內政部因為我們現在看到說實在要問內政部內政部今天的官員是誰"},{"start":620.516,"end":643.189,"text":"內政部是我們詐欺犯罪防治中心的主任我不知道說您了不了解沒關係來部長我還是強調我們過去到現在因為馬上上12月初很多國人就在討論就是說速發部自己做的打詐通報平台90% 80%都來自於同一個媒體同一個集團對不對"},{"start":644.73,"end":665.147,"text":"那結果你不去動百分之八十九十的這一個打詐騙的一個管道你反而動一個你們在速發的通報平台裡面沒有選項的小紅書讓國人就覺得奇怪你是大炮打小鳥還是你只是選擇性的辦案還是你政治意識形態這是第一個第二個本席要問"},{"start":665.948,"end":692.678,"text":"那從12月5號開始內政部說要把這個網域給關掉那到目前為止我們打詐成效快一個月了我沒有看到有具體的數據啊我們有很明顯的顯著的因為我們政府把小黃書關掉把小黃書讓他不能用打詐的名義讓他不能使用之後我們的詐騙通報的數量有大幅下降嗎你有沒有看打詐儀表版"},{"start":694.529,"end":718.055,"text":"這個禮拜 上個禮拜二是 也是內政部嘛但是速發部有沒有統計你們自己的通報有沒有減少有沒有減少這一個月有沒有突然間大幅減少在我們網站通報查詢網上面的統計還是以Meta他的Facebook還有Thread最大宗那至於那個是嘛 你自己也承認他們最大宗嘛"},{"start":720.616,"end":735.629,"text":"結果我們去我們去一個遮蔽一個在你的通報平台裡面通報系統裡面完全沒有選項的小紅書不覺得很本末倒置嗎那再來打在一表板這個禮拜上個禮拜一15號2億6千多萬被詐騙禮拜二"},{"start":743.243,"end":764.309,"text":"一億八千多萬被詐騙我講最近的這個禮拜一一億四千多萬內政部來部長我不是要洗你臉你放心我只是要讓你知道這個事情的荒謬內政部那個負責的然後這個小紅書這個決定也是內政部政府不是應該一致嗎來 部長好 部長我只最後一句話讓你知道"},{"start":765.729,"end":787.397,"text":"本席還是開宗明義強調你放心我今天不是讓你在這邊就是謀受不白之怨但是政府是一體的數位發展部有數位發展部的功能國內也對數位發展部有所期待所以如果說當真正打詐本席為什麼今天會列社群媒體平台打詐成效的時候我希望是所有政府部門一起動起來"},{"start":788.777,"end":795.501,"text":"要求 強力要求社群媒體平台真的不能再有詐騙廣告在上面有 你們就是幫兇就是這麼簡單感謝部長"}]}},{"id":"166611","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166611","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60668d088a640a665aedbd2ae366782b1a91760b03f9a190b7970626aac8e0cc315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:58:46 - 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是 謝謝主席這邊有請陳次長請交通部陳次長好 待會還請那個群敘部的校專委來 群敘部專委有來了"},{"start":24.434,"end":52.612,"text":"今天是法規師嘛 今天問到的還是機關的代表人問到的如果不是當你回答回去跟你們部長官來做一個說明好 謝謝首先我想請教次長的就是因為本席看到你們這次的提案針對航港局的組織法修正高工局"},{"start":53.792,"end":80.021,"text":"組織法修正等等那麼最重要就是說想要把這個所謂的自衛制的人員未來讓他們可以這個轉任到公務人員就是一般的所謂的健檢委制的這個軌道那麼但是呢事實上就是你們這次的提案已經有跟其他的部會有進行過相關這個有進行過仔細的溝通討論了嗎"},{"start":81.587,"end":83.834,"text":"因為我看起來循序部基本上是反對你們這麼做的"},{"start":87.888,"end":111.403,"text":"對 可以請次長先談是 我想這一個制度上在提案這是提案委員的一個提出來當然我們很支持這是對於交通部尤其是這三個機關的用人是更為彈性那最主要其實在這之前已經有派用人員他已經有類似的一個規定而且也做了一個"},{"start":112.243,"end":130.679,"text":"相關的一個鬆綁所以我們認為這樣的一個制度其實那還有一個是自衛的人員那如果在一個機關裡面一個有做處理一個沒做處理其實對整個機關的一個同仁的一個不管是士氣也好或者是相關人員的禁用也好大概都會受到影響"},{"start":131.36,"end":147.205,"text":"因為事實上在先前的法規裡面有給他們六年的時間去做轉換 讓他們去選擇但是這六年期間裡面看起來交通部也沒有任何的提案你們有主動的說要進行相關的修法還是純粹就是立法委員們自己提的提案"},{"start":148.212,"end":176.77,"text":"其實在這個過程裡頭其實同仁都有一直有所建議啦所以有沒有交通部有主動提案那當然到了這個所謂的派用人員就是有關公路人員派用人員的任用的就是公路人員任用法相關修正之後呢這樣的聲音更大那其實我們交通部內部呢大概各局大概都有所建議那我們也都有在研擬相關的一個修法的一個建議"},{"start":177.53,"end":185.592,"text":"現在我看起來今天你們的報告書裡面這個法如果說通過的話大概會影響差不多大概590個同仁的權益讓他們可能未來可以就是軌道轉換但是本席更"},{"start":194.415,"end":220.97,"text":"在乎的就是全序部的報告書裡面所談的那麼事實上他們對於這樣子的這次的修法並不認同而且非常擔心就是說未來如果說這個條文通過的話可能會造成就是有後此不比的一個情況那麼可不可以請全序部再講一下為什麼你們這次的書面報告裡面你們基本上是不贊同這個法律的修正"},{"start":223.717,"end":249.386,"text":"根文報告 基本上這三間機關從交通事業機構轉成為行政機關之後那歷來考試院的政策對於具有公人任用資格的人是要轉任的 轉任為警戒委制那位具任用資格人的話 基本上是用原本的適用的資格也就是說 他是職位 那就是職位任用官務 就是官務任用 以保障當事人的權益"},{"start":250.126,"end":269.865,"text":"那在前次修法的時候呢基本上已經有設定一個過渡期那在這個過渡期間使自衛制的人員可以就是說自行選擇那選定之後呢就不可以再改變那這期間已經保障了那基本上我們部裡面的意見只是承襲就是說考試院的一個相關的一個決定那"},{"start":270.365,"end":277.886,"text":"我們只是表達說因為內部的人員種類過多之後呢相關的權益呢就會失衡那在管理上會導致一個問題那如果了解是對所以謝謝這個我想更進一步了解就是說如果說我們這個法通過那未來其他事業單位會不會也會比照也會比照辦理而且他可能會影響到的人員是有多少不知道詮釋部這邊有沒有這個相關的"},{"start":302.752,"end":314.604,"text":"數據統計跟委員報告最後一個交通事業機構是台鐵台鐵已經轉公司了那未來已經沒有交通事業機構那現在都是已經改成行政機關的體制那像是經濟部他們之前他們也有類似像這樣事業機構對不對我的意思是說如果說之後其他的部會也比較辦理然後鬆綁他們的組織法他的影響層面會不會很廣"},{"start":324.547,"end":341.878,"text":"應該是這麼說委員所提的比方說經濟部的機關那他以後改制之後如果未具任用資格人將來要選擇這樣子的方式處理的話那就要看相關的就是組織法規有沒有要做一個設定如果沒有的話那就回到他所授權訂定的辦法去做規範"},{"start":342.739,"end":346.162,"text":"所以我本席認為說這一次的修法它其實影響層面是非常廣的是不是為了交通部可能那五百多位同仁讓他們可以從自衛制轉換成為公務員的建委任職"},{"start":359.912,"end":380.127,"text":"他不僅不是只是與交通部有關而且他可能未來會影響到這個全台灣的其他的這個部會事業單位可能都會有這樣的做法而且他也可能會提高這個整個的政府的預算那麼更何況就是當時在法規上面已經有給這些人做"},{"start":381.288,"end":388.072,"text":"做選擇嘛像譬如說剛剛講的交通的事業單位還是給他6年的時間做選擇那麼既然已經選擇選定了那就不應該要再做任何的改變如果說今天是滋味制上面的人員認為說他無法升等我覺得應該是要去檢討那個滋味制裡面是不是還有可能"},{"start":401.959,"end":426.665,"text":"有更合理的一個升遷的制度管道而不是說讓他整個去轉到這個公務人員的建委任職這是本席的看法好 那麼除此之外就說本席因為馬上就放連假了這個今年的因為聖誕就行刑紀念日的假期還有元旦的假期那麼所以就讓本席很擔心就是說不知道現在交通部對於就是"},{"start":428.626,"end":439.426,"text":"連假期間 那麼可能國道又會大塞車你們現在目前有什麼樣的因應方案嗎規劃嗎 我還記得我在去年的時候光是從台北開到雲林就開了6個半小時"},{"start":441.448,"end":470.788,"text":"我想跟委員報告有關即將到來的春節的這樣的一個其實春節完了以後他其實放假四天以後又是這個應該是228的廉價所以像這樣的一個有關廉價輸運的一個規劃其實在上個禮拜也是我本人大概有跟部署的相關機關都有探討就是明年延續假期的相關的配套措施那高工局因為這次的廉價它是比較長"},{"start":471.889,"end":493.548,"text":"所以他會有一些放假回去的時候他會有一個分流的一個效果當然不會員的在出山呢是一個不管是南來北往不管是高速公路也好或是軌道運輸也好都是這個最尖峰的一個時間那這一部分呢我們已經責請我們部署機關做相關的一個因應的作為本市希望說你們這次的對於這個放年假的"},{"start":497.171,"end":517.817,"text":"這個幾個大連架這個國道的疏運的部分一定要特別的注意要想一個比較更好的方式避免在國道上面大塞車然後呢還有一個問題就是有關於這個行人地域的問題那麼我們知道其實現在台灣每年"},{"start":519.81,"end":535.505,"text":"因為行人穿越斑馬線而發生的交通事故是逐年的攀高那麼之前欣恩還說台灣是行人地獄可是沒想到我們的政府又說台灣不是行人地獄 這個泰國才是然後又硬是把泰國拉下來墊背但是我認為說這樣子的比喻並不是很好"},{"start":543.493,"end":559.102,"text":"那麼重點就是說我們現在都在推廣這個汽機車要禮讓行人的運動那麼也知道現在交通部針對就是汽機車如果說沒有禮讓行人的話又加重罰則可是我們看到更多的情況是很多的汽機車的駕駛人對於我們現在的行人"},{"start":562.944,"end":580.457,"text":"走斑馬線 牛步或在裡面拍照啦然後慢慢的看手機 一邊是滑手機所以這其實也會影響到交通那麼對於這個部分不知道交通部有沒有更積極的做法現在依照交通管理處罰條例第78條的規定行人的違規只罰500塊現在是汽機車駕駛人的違規是罰6000"},{"start":587.902,"end":598.017,"text":"這似乎是對於違規的行為的處罰程度是完全不同你們沒有聽到很多的騎機車駕駛人的抱怨嗎"},{"start":599.105,"end":619.653,"text":"我想跟委員報告有關這個行人的一個或者整個應該是講說整體的交通安全我先跟委員一個大致上的一個輪廓其實經過大家共同各縣市政府跟中央大家共同努力其實所有的這個交通事故是朝著這個降低的一個趨勢在發展那我們也發現了經過大家強力的這個宣導"},{"start":622.094,"end":636.954,"text":"在入口的里让等等的我们也发现在入口发生交通事故的死亡人数是减少的在路段上有很多的是这里头特别提到的行人在穿越马路不依标志标线规定"},{"start":637.455,"end":649.322,"text":"或耗資來行走啊等等的所以呢有關行人如何確保行人的用路安全的這部分呢我想也是在我們每一個月的這個道安記者會裡頭我們大概都對外來說明我會加強這方面的一個宣導我希望次長回去之後可以針對有關於行人違規的部分要再進行檢討因為確實現在我們看到的狀況是很多的這個行人"},{"start":665.092,"end":690.082,"text":"他們自己不自律然後在走行人道的時候故意慢慢的走或者是說有一些違規的行為那這些話基本上都是值得這個交通部看看有沒有做更多的宣導或者是說我們修法把這個罰金再往上面提高是 我想交通安全是要所有用路人來共同維持那這部分我們會來加強宣導那就請你們再回去檢討 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國科會主委經濟部次長 交通部次長委員好國科會副主委交通部經濟部國化會還有國科會各位早安"},{"start":27.182,"end":52.895,"text":"我也是賴委員那其實我們財政委員會向來我們的傳統跟文化大家其實基本上都是溫和的那今天有很多委員會的那個其他委員會的官員到這個地方來我希望就是讓我們所有的財政委員會的委員還有信賴的委員都可以真的是大家互相信賴可以真正的把這個"},{"start":53.996,"end":78.383,"text":"我們在預算審查裡頭的憲政僵局是不是試著試著可以有機會來打破那我們大家都知道說距離那個本會計年度的結束只剩下七八天了那令人遺憾就是說民眾黨跟國民黨兩黨他就是把115年度的總預算現在還卡在程序委員會沒有辦法進到委員會來實質的一個審查"},{"start":81.084,"end":100.959,"text":"那我相信在座的各位也非常的清楚立法院不可能在剩餘的幾天把所有的預算審查完畢可是這個不僅是程序的問題也是行政效能的問題那在這裡本席要代表我們基層群眾的一個焦慮是不是這個僵局有沒有辦法"},{"start":101.9,"end":130.599,"text":"那個打開那對老百姓的一個衝擊有多大主席長我想在這裡請教你這個115年度3000億的新興計劃那他的會影響他的內容會影響到哪一個部會是最嚴重的會不會像美國一樣就是說預算沒過我們的公務人員有有沒有辦法繼續領薪水有沒有辦法繼續領薪水會不會像美國政府一樣關門停板"},{"start":132.12,"end":148.244,"text":"主委長依照規定他那個法定的一個支出是可以支出的啦但是他就是新興的計畫就受到限制那這裡面呢主要就是說對直轄市和縣市的一個補助這個會影響因為會衝擊地方的一個整個的"},{"start":152.825,"end":166.81,"text":"一個調度然後裡面重點還有一些是屬於相關縣市管河川的一個治理和整治那這個影響到將來災害來的時候這個部分我們必須在提前來作為"},{"start":168.05,"end":189.104,"text":"就會有影響到很大那重點還有一個就是TPAS因為TPAS之前它是編載那個前瞻計畫所以在115年它是視為新增計畫那會影響到將近98萬的一個通勤組的一個權益那再來還有一個就是健康台灣70億的部分那會強調我整個一個一個"},{"start":193.067,"end":221.236,"text":"疫苗研發的一個能量還有藥品這樣聽起來是每一個部會都會受到很大的一個影響那公務人員我比較關心的是公務人員領得到薪水嗎薪水是可以領到薪水是可以領得到的沒有問題所以說在未來就是說在地方政府的一個新興計畫還是中央政府的新興計畫顯然是沒有辦法推動的"},{"start":222.725,"end":247.693,"text":"對 新興計畫還有一個就是原來經常性的支出或者是原系新的計畫比去年還多出的這個部分這個部分有將近一千八百零五億那裡面有主要是國防部的一些相關的油料啊彈藥的一個供給啊還有一個就是交通部的相關那個所謂的鐵路地下化相關的一個好 主席長我知道"},{"start":248.933,"end":274.679,"text":"這個就是所有的部會都會受到很大的一個影響那中央政府會不會關門應該不會啦應該不會啦所以預算有沒有過沒有關係只是會影響到很多基層就是我們這些民眾他所有就是說不管是日常生活11住行裡頭每一樣都會受到影響或多或少"},{"start":275.689,"end":291.121,"text":"是當然薪水是不會影響但是整個國家的一個相關的一個建設人民的一個權益都會受到影響所以可以不可以這樣講說國家陷入高度的一個不確定性我可以這樣說嗎好謝謝那個主計長請回那接著國防會副主委我想"},{"start":296.885,"end":319.776,"text":"請教你一個就是說在機器人這個智慧機器人的一個聚落會不會淪為空頭支票因為他就是在本席本席的一個選區裡頭不管是他的一個六甲的那個機器人的那個研發中心還是說在柳營那個機器人的第三期的一個聚落的一個行程會不會受影響"},{"start":320.777,"end":335.376,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們這一次的新計劃裡面AI新時代裡面有明天編的311億元然後我們大概會受影響的有107億元委員關心的機器人會受影響有多少有107億"},{"start":338.36,"end":343.945,"text":"對 那107億的話你顯然就是說像我們在地方一直就是幫你們招商這個會不會導致廠商對地方政府失去信心啊顯然你也會延宕到地方的一個發展好 主委我想大家都面臨到這樣的一個困難所以就是說"},{"start":361.26,"end":376.197,"text":"我覺得你們可能就是說兩位副主委你們對於智慧機器人這個產業聚落在未來的一個研發可能在因為它是一個起步那我們也知道全世界就是機器人這個產業其實是非常競爭的"},{"start":378.82,"end":397.017,"text":"那我們有這麼好的一個AI的一個機器人的一個聚落那如果因為就是經費沒有辦法到位的時候顯然會造成地方很大的影響你們要去準備配套的一個措施所以我們會希望大院儘快的通過我們總預算的審查讓相關的計畫可以持續的推動"},{"start":397.847,"end":413.556,"text":"那個我也是希望啊不然我在這裡來請教那個經濟部這個民生的一個治水我想這個盲目的一個杯葛讓我們其實在整個台南西北的鄉親的生命的財產受到很大的一個影響那"},{"start":418.788,"end":443.975,"text":"這個在我們看到了就是說那個在之前提出來的因應氣候的一個變遷強化就是黃紅的一個韌性那我們有很多治水的一個預算那顯然就是說在我們台南後壁這個清寮抽水站的改建工程本來已經核定他3.1億的那現在有辦法推動嗎"},{"start":445.482,"end":467.791,"text":"跟委員報告這個可能還是要經過我們這一大院的這個預算的審查過之後我們才可以來動之因為那這個部分影響的台南的部分大概有十億左右的預算那這些都是非常重要的治水預算在包括像後壁還有精療排水抽水站的興建的這個部分"},{"start":468.717,"end":491.639,"text":"所以次長我知道你是台南人你也是西北你的故鄉也在西北那顯然就是說這樣的一個淹水如果政府已經看到年年淹水年年沒有辦法改善為什麼呢其實這個水液裡頭跟村子裡頭它同時存在了可是這個時間太久了水液沒有達到這個輸菌的一個效果"},{"start":492.399,"end":510.848,"text":"變成每次落雨 每次淹水淹一百都是到層頭結果所有在層頭裡頭的人就在看待你的政府就是說你是不是可以花大錢幫我們來做這種輸菌跟滯洪的工程顯然就是卡住了"},{"start":511.408,"end":531.377,"text":"是卡住了所以這個這個也是我們也希望就是說應該應該就是說大家大家要齊心同理因為這個政治上的一個攻防是必須必須要的可是如果就是兩黨的一個對立這麼嚴重的話甚至還影響到就是說通情的一個"},{"start":532.097,"end":548.134,"text":"危機 這個也是交通部你來做一個補充你看喔 顯然這個TBUS這個南高屏的生活圈的一個斷吹的一個風險它呈現在 馬上就呈現在這裡面了明年的1月1號你這個通勤就是受影響了那該怎麼辦"},{"start":549.747,"end":576.799,"text":"所以我跟委員報告 剛剛講這TPAS 主席長也有提到說影響大概98萬人我想要跟委員做一個更新 最新的資料其實它已經變成到102 也就是說TPAS其實受國人的通行的需求非常的大是 它是一個成功的政策嘛 一個成功的社會福利嘛那現在沒有錢的話 你有沒有什麼應變的方式呢"},{"start":577.439,"end":605.777,"text":"現在因為沒有辦法 依照這個規定他沒有審大約如果沒有審的話我這個預算是沒有辦法來動之的那就是到明年1月1號就斷催了對 我就沒有錢可以支付那怎麼辦 那我如果是通勤組的話我就是我的業票不能使用變成我自己要掏錢去買這些業票嗎所以希望那個大約盡快把這個預算把它審過所以會陷入到1月1號就會陷入到這樣的一個困境就是沒有錢可以支應"},{"start":606.533,"end":625.284,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝次長好再來運動部的一個改制後的一個斷吹的一個危機那顯然那個這個是不是這個總預算談在立法院那這個運動部也一樣啊他只能就是沿用體育署的一個經費所以這個運動部顯然就是"},{"start":626.204,"end":647.7,"text":"他沒有錢也做不了事情所以我想這個呈現出來的都是困境所以我在這裡我還是要跟各位再做一個那個報告就是說主計長我說的一個斷吹這個是不是行政運作的一個斷吹還是國家政策的一個斷吹這個"},{"start":650.382,"end":663.956,"text":"都會讓國家受到很大很大的一個傷害那如果我們拿民生來當政治的一個籌碼的話我相信這個就是大家都輸人民也輸 政府也輸大家都輸"},{"start":664.697,"end":692.607,"text":"那本席在這裡具體要求就一週內提出緊急應變的一個報告計畫到我的辦公室那請主計總署跟相關部會針對的受影響的一個新興計畫不管是治水產業還是TPAS這些計畫就涵蓋在裡面盤點預算卡關的一個衝擊跟補救的一個措施我們盡量讓國人的權益不受政治僵局的一個損害謝謝大家 謝謝主席"},{"start":693.007,"end":696.164,"text":"好 謝謝賴委員接下來我們請郭國文委員"}]}},{"id":"166605","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166605","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60751f2a39f46af6cf8f4e93bf07b6087fb335d4796f3eb88d7e067b1efe2647ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:38:44 - 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Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T09:38:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T09:47:58+08:00","duration":554,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.5372187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.6215937500000001,"end":1.4990937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.11034375,"end":5.650343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.105968750000001,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.96221875,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.442843750000002,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.56471875,"end":16.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.53471875,"end":26.085968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.81596875,"end":26.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.28846875,"end":64.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.009093750000005,"end":32.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.430968750000005,"end":32.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.52034375,"end":54.807218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.81409375,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.17846875000001,"end":85.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.61659375,"end":87.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.56159375,"end":88.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.84409375,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.51846875000001,"end":102.14159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.76596875000001,"end":109.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.78596875000001,"end":111.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.24971875000001,"end":116.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.05909375,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.90659375000001,"end":132.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.10284375,"end":134.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.38534375,"end":139.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.24534375000002,"end":149.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.35346875000002,"end":156.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.10784375,"end":156.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.52971875,"end":158.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.93846875,"end":164.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.20346875,"end":166.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.04284375,"end":170.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.32909375,"end":173.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.60284375,"end":178.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.53034375000001,"end":184.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.79534375,"end":186.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.22534375,"end":187.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.65971875000002,"end":191.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.18659375000001,"end":194.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.94971875000002,"end":197.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.56971875000002,"end":201.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.28221875000003,"end":202.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.32409375,"end":204.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.23096875000002,"end":206.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.35721875000002,"end":208.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.34846875000002,"end":214.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.78221875000003,"end":216.45284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.04346875000002,"end":219.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.16096875000002,"end":222.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.98346875000001,"end":223.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.23221875000002,"end":226.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.26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請陳副總部長我想 本來立法跟行政它的角色不一樣是立法院立法委員可以有建議權然後把這些建議權匯集之後由我們行政院依照我們可行的而且可以對農民最好的"},{"start":26.57,"end":43.997,"text":"版本我們提出最適當的然後再送到立法院來然後再去做雙向然後這個通過之後如果行政院版本通過那麼就是我們已經整合了包括我們的立法院委員的意見"},{"start":44.777,"end":64.023,"text":"我們農民的意見還有我們現在整個財主單位的一個看法用一個最能夠執行的方向我想這是我們一直以來行政立法分工合作最重要的依據所以我們也一直在要求就是說"},{"start":65.804,"end":84.542,"text":"確實我們所有的立委對於老農今天我們已經提過了很久的一個狀況而且我們討論數次在我們的經濟委員會當中其實我們已經討論很久很久很久了所以在這個部分大家認為時間到了"},{"start":86.724,"end":101.801,"text":"尤其排富居然已經超過15年沒有去做調整可是當我們整個物價跟房屋不斷的在調整他的地價指數還有我們的一個房屋"},{"start":103.502,"end":130.168,"text":"這個數字已經超乎了老農他可以維持可以承擔的方向所以我認為時間到了所以為什麼現在我們的召委要排是因為時間到了而且我們也看到我們目前所有中央曾經衛福部有公告的就是我們低收入戶最低生活費的一個公告基準就是15515"},{"start":134.161,"end":157.151,"text":"可是我們雖然老農今天我們當時候有修法一次就是把它依照4年的CPI去做調整可是調整到現在也只有到8,110元這跟我們的實質生活費的一個看法是有實質的落差所以我們才認為說時間到了"},{"start":159.997,"end":178,"text":"一定要趕快對於在老農津貼的一個檢討機制我們要調整就是CPI每年一定要做檢討不能四年啦 四年太久了每一年他叫我們CPI的指數去做調整"},{"start":180.145,"end":201.974,"text":"這樣人民 農民 才會覺得我們的政府跟他們站在一起不然你不給資助一直在去 我們的生活經驗一直沒改變所以大家也認為時間到了所以我們認為說 現在我們行政院責無旁貸 不能再拖"},{"start":203.379,"end":226.845,"text":"我們的版本這麼多尤其你若不站出來講大家好好講甚至是農民的想法農會是最直接的什麼一個基準讓人民能夠接受讓農民能夠接受到底是多少數額一萬或是有人漫天海家已經海到一萬五了"},{"start":228.485,"end":250.955,"text":"這些都是在我們整個建議案立委的建議案裡面我們曾經看到的可是最後的主導權是行政院你要去弄出一套我們可以做的而不是每一次弄出來讓大家漫天喊價之後這個跟我過去說真的我從政27年了"},{"start":253.252,"end":268.317,"text":"過去大家跟我們講說省預算就是不能增加預算可以刪預算不能增預算可是現在大家是在漫天寒假然後搞了一堆政府根本無法執行的案子當然你明天會很慘"},{"start":270.287,"end":293.028,"text":"但是當你沒辦法執行的時候不是更糟糕嗎不是又把人民的權利跟義務又把它往回拉了嗎這跟我們民意代表在所謂第一線為人民發聲的一個阻止跟目標是不一樣的所以我會講那麼多是我認為時間到了"},{"start":295.745,"end":318.797,"text":"不論是從我們檢討每年CPI要檢討一次然後我們要一次把所謂的現在是調整到8118這是不夠的我們要怎麼拿到哪一個一次到的數額然後再每年檢討一次依照CPI然後再做排富的一個放寬"},{"start":321.131,"end":341.425,"text":"這個才是農民要的部長你認為呢我想非常謝謝委員的一番一席話那我非常認同那基本上從過往的這邊這些數據顯示是時候到了應該去做調整那剛才在我的報告裡面我也非常正面的回應各位的意見"},{"start":342.185,"end":369.496,"text":"那我要說明的一點就是說所有的法律案牽涉到經費的部分如果有充分的經過討論不管是各黨各派來討論的時候那得到的一個共識而且是經過行政院特別如果以農業部看的話是確認可行的話那那個法律案通過就沒有問題那我們最擔心的就是說完全沒有討論直接進到表決那樣子未來就可能就牽涉到一些財政上的一個支出的一個問題"},{"start":370.413,"end":397.501,"text":"所以你認為時間到了所以你們行政院你農業部自己其實也有版本了對不對所以我覺得就像我們退休儲金一樣退休儲金我當時候也是認為時間到了那既然我們就要趕快讓老農讓農民有感讓青農有感不要每次我們都這裡淘錢然後都被掛在外面"},{"start":398.721,"end":417.129,"text":"所以我當時候就說我們退休儲金時間到了所以你看我們現在我們行政院的版本也已經都送到退休儲金已經送到立法院了現在就是因為那個復一期嘛12月30復一期過我已經排定了1月7號我們要來協商一樣"},{"start":420.35,"end":430.631,"text":"老農今天這個部分我們也希望行政院趕快通過院會然後送到立法院來你認為多久"},{"start":432.25,"end":455.539,"text":"我相信在一兩個禮拜之內應該就會送出來一兩個禮拜因為這個禮拜四這個禮拜四剛好那個放假嘛對那我不知道會不會加開那下禮拜我們希望說盡快我會跟行政院溝通盡快可不可以在下禮拜因為相關的程序都審完了只要經過院會通過就可以送到立法院來我們期待下禮拜看看會爭取排進去"},{"start":455.759,"end":482.566,"text":"我們拜託下個禮拜行政院會要排進那排進之後只要通過就可以送立法院來這樣我們老農才有感啊尤其我必須說的我們農業部我們替我們農民做活在這裡從蔡英文總統開始我們的三寶一金耶那是我們民進黨政府從一開始老農今天是誰是陳水扁總統"},{"start":484.229,"end":504.066,"text":"然後三寶一金是誰是蔡英文總統就是要讓我們老農有保障對於我們的農業保險對於我們的農民健康保險對於我們的職災跟我們的農民退休儲金這個部分都是讓我們的農民有保障因為都是看天吃飯"},{"start":505.427,"end":520.339,"text":"所以這個部分我們不能把這個對老農那麼好的一個方向然後似乎要去掛鍊子要做我們就做到好該檢討的就檢討不適宜的就把它做調整"},{"start":521.119,"end":548.653,"text":"這就是我們共同的方向我們期待下個禮拜行政院院會通過然後馬上送到立法院來我相信我們可以用最快的速度我們的召委就可以讓我們老農今天快速通過依照一個可以執行的方向然後農民又可以接受又可以讓我們老農有保障的這才是我們共同的期待謝謝好 謝謝委員的支持 謝謝"},{"start":551.453,"end":552.157,"text":"好 謝謝省委 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"166604","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166604","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60429a5daf5549a2578f4e93bf07b6087fb335d4796f3eb88d7e067b1efe2647ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:28:59 - 09:38:38","影片長度":"00:09:39","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T09:28:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T09:38:38+08:00","duration":579,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":0.8240937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.992218750000001,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.25346875,"end":7.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.72096875,"end":30.827843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.751593750000005,"end":33.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.84846875,"end":34.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.67534375,"end":35.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.384093750000005,"end":39.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.024718750000005,"end":40.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.69971875,"end":46.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.70721875,"end":59.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.11471875,"end":62.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.962218750000005,"end":76.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.24409375,"end":67.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.88846875,"end":75.79971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.23846875000001,"end":79.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.16596875,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.54096875,"end":89.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.98221875,"end":97.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.51721875000001,"end":131.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.07784375,"end":137.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.79409375,"end":144.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.97909375,"end":148.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.42971875,"end":156.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.36596875,"end":161.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.53346875,"end":163.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.34284375000001,"end":166.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.56596875000002,"end":178.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.55221875,"end":176.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.50971875000002,"end":184.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.19221875000002,"end":193.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.90471875,"end":189.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.06034375000002,"end":194.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.98784375000002,"end":215.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.84971875000002,"end":216.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.19534375,"end":223.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.59096875,"end":228.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.67471875,"end":238.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.70409375000003,"end":230.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.93159375000002,"end":232.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.04846875,"end":242.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.54596875000001,"end":250.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.41846875000002,"end":256.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.16846875000002,"end":294.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.79221875,"end":263.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.59409375,"end":287.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.22534375000004,"end":324.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.17034375000003,"end":332.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.96221875000003,"end":337.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.75034375,"end":350.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.96346875,"end":359.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.02971875000003,"end":377.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.38409375000003,"e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麻煩陳部長請部長"},{"start":12.782,"end":30.595,"text":"好部長早部長這個是提案要提高老農津貼的委員的名單我知道剛剛由到剛剛為止也有很多的更新就是各黨派都有但其中還是以執政黨的這個委員最多那我想請教部長部長老農津貼暫行條例是法律案還是預算案是法律案"},{"start":33.925,"end":61.842,"text":"是法律案應該是法律案嘛那部長修法提高老農津貼會不會增加政府的支出當然會那立法委員有沒有權利提出提高老農津貼的修法呢我基本上我想建議可以修這個法是沒有問題的但是相對的我剛才說的那個額度的部分額度的部分從行政單位去提因為行政單位會考慮到我只是問議委有沒有權利提修法"},{"start":62.022,"end":89.754,"text":"我還是說嘛 就是針對額度的部分應該是尊重行政院所提的因為這個部分是牽涉到預算的部分那委員是可以提高 要提高但是如果指定一個金額的話那就是等於說相對的我這樣問的理由齁 我想請你先看個影片齁我們先來確定一件事齁你們的第一點理由說違反憲法權利分立原則侵害行政權憲法規定本院提出預算"},{"start":96.146,"end":96.166,"text":"請時間請暫停"},{"start":101.584,"end":129.806,"text":"好 那就好 那不然我直接講那像說行政院秘書長張東涵在司法法制委會說以財化法為例他說是法律案包裝的預算案影響到行政院編列預算的權益所以是違憲的那我請教部長按照行政院對財化法的邏輯會影響行政院編列預算的法案就可能違憲那麼假設我們最後通過劉昭偉的版本劉靜和的版本假設假設把老農經濟提高到每月1萬元這樣有違憲嗎"},{"start":132.128,"end":137.052,"text":"我想如果各委員都支持行政院版本然後由行政院版本通過就沒有違憲"},{"start":138.854,"end":166.377,"text":"我剛剛提到的就是事實上你剛剛才說正在準備嘛所以我剛才說就是支持行政院的版本就絕對沒有問題沒有違憲的問題立法委員你剛剛也有權利修法啊對 修法可以說提高我們支持委員提高但是額度的部分額度部分如果尊重立法行政院總統會不會不附屬不公佈呢如果沒有按照你所謂行政院的版本呢"},{"start":167.788,"end":183.014,"text":"我想農民福利的津貼是很多委員的一個共識那我希望支持行政院的版本因為行政院的版本後續會針對我們的軍費到目前為止只有立法院的版本立委版本那農業部"},{"start":183.434,"end":193.98,"text":"我們今天是備詢 今天並不是在處理相關的一個法案的條文我為什麼這樣問後續的部分等行政院送出來了以後我們就會來一起來併審請尊重我的質詢在發出普發先進特別條例的時候 執政黨一場違憲結果大罷免大失敗就行政院又說從善如虜才提出這個版本這時候又有這個執政黨立委改口說這是行政院幫立法院解套"},{"start":207.108,"end":222.791,"text":"那按照這位執政黨立委的邏輯我們今天審查老農津貼暫行條例沒有農業部的版本沒有行政院版本那怎麼解套呢我跟委員說明今天是整個的備詢的部分後續的部分如果說行政院的版本送進來以後就可以合併來審查"},{"start":223.712,"end":229.377,"text":"我們看過這樣的太多例子了 這個行政整個怠惰我個人非常肯定 召委今天排審這個照顧農民 能夠支持現在的總預算 趕快進審因為審查總預算是立法院的一個權責我希望說這個"},{"start":239.145,"end":262.979,"text":"整個的預算趕快審對農民我們後續的支持才會有我進來這兩年我看到太被動了啦反正都是立法委員先提出版本然後這個可是相對的我還是希望委員能夠支持整個總預算趕快送審因為總預算卡住了以後對農民的很多基礎建設都沒辦法那就要執行立法院三讀通過的這個條例好嗎可是相對的立法院的總執行更重要立法院的總執行更重要"},{"start":264.22,"end":285.095,"text":"11月豬隻禁運禁載期間融業部說會擴大羈養額的供應量但事實上屠宰量是受影響的因為過去被拿來當餵養的動物性廢渣下繳料也就是雞爪雞脖子等等因為沒有辦法拿去餵豬了所以影響屠宰量目前又報導指出未來全面禁止屠魚養豬的時候那羈養群等下繳料要額外"},{"start":287.476,"end":314.796,"text":"額外清運處理的話每隻雞至少會上漲10塊錢以上請問農業部有掌握這個價格嗎還是已經都上漲了我們當然有掌握這個價格以現在的租價來講我們基本上大概是90塊 91塊最低不到89塊左右那其他的物料還是一致性在那邊的我還是跟委員強調所有的這些防疫是以非洲豬瘟的防疫是以防疫為重點"},{"start":315.436,"end":336.887,"text":"那現在中央應變中心並沒有解散所以中央應變中心就是為了讓這個非洲豬能夠很明確的陷入在台中市我們非常清楚因為現在的邊境管制跟這個海關的管制沒有辦法完全杜絕所以只好從這個廚餘下手不是 我們有三道防線第一道是邊境 第二道是後市場 第三道才是養豬場"},{"start":337.807,"end":358.539,"text":"但是我剛剛只是請教部長就是說你做出這個處於這個就禁用在未租的這個情況下那有很多的這個成本清運處理成本還有這個當然我今天不提到這個所謂這個廢棄物的這個等等處理的量能等等我剛剛就是請教說你有沒有去了解這個掌握這個可能漲價的情況"},{"start":359.079,"end":373.748,"text":"我們所有的所有的這些養豬的這些飼料相關的成本我們都隨時在掌握我也跟委員講現在目前是禁止廚藝養豬那所有的東西都是用飼料的部分就沒有所謂的這些飼料會漲價會降價因為這些物料都不能進來的"},{"start":377.21,"end":382.093,"text":"因為它後面的這個廢紮這個下腳踏它要重新去清運處理所以它的成本它的成本會上漲10塊錢你沒有好好聽清楚我們的話沒有 相對的處理費的部分是由環境部會有經費去支應的好 推給環境部好 我想說我不是推喔"},{"start":396.562,"end":401.047,"text":"稍微講過嘛沒有 相關的就是處理費是環境部會編列經費的我來換一個問題這個芬普尼雞蛋事件三個月爆發了現在已經台灣第三次了這個問題一直存在表示說你沒有辦法好好處理那我們就必須回頭檢視台灣這個雞隻飼養的根本問題"},{"start":414.241,"end":422.264,"text":"因為分埔泥是環境用藥它不是用在雞身上喔它必須是用在雞舍清空以後的消毒使用但是台灣的飼養環境很難執行啦因為目前還是以格子龍為主根本就無法說清空這個雞舍那去年年初有個機構叫做"},{"start":434.109,"end":443.094,"text":"讓基於展示國際聯盟他針對亞洲還有紐西蘭大概有十幾個國家總共十幾個國家做評比那檢視各國推動這個淡基產業轉型就非農飼養的政策結果滿分是140分你看看部長我們台灣剛剛得到29分"},{"start":452.218,"end":479.065,"text":"這個慘不忍睹也蠻丟臉的不講 非農次養不是只有動保的議題他會減少這個降低這個食安的風險跟感染風險雖然農業部你有訂定這個雞蛋友善生產系統的定義指南提供所謂的友善蛋農第一例貸款以及友善生產系統的標示但都停留在鼓勵的性質我完全沒有政策的這個有效的去執行所以你看看這個有掛鈴的地方就是"},{"start":480.225,"end":506.899,"text":"這個廢除蛋積 蛋積是那個融資的進度我們是零欸 掛零分的我想請問部長你有沒有打算往這個廢除蛋積 融資用融資來飼養這個政策方向去做呢我想我們政策上還是會去朝向一個合理的一個友善的一個飼養但是以現在目前台灣的這些養殖現況那基本上我們還是用鼓勵的方式去處理又來決定自然難行嗎"},{"start":508.4,"end":527.063,"text":"委員所看到的 你看嘛 非農飼養的轉型措施我們是蠻高分的喔我們是比其他國家還高差不了多少 但是廢除的部分是比較麻煩廢除的部分啦 廢除的部分是比較低但是我們國家最主要是一個希望由"},{"start":528.404,"end":551.873,"text":"業者自行的轉型 而不是用強制性的方式去處理那你現在還有這麼多理由 還在留在鼓勵那鼓勵也沒有結果啊 掛零的你也不講16分也很高嗎我跟委員報告 您所提的這些資訊當然都是我們一個非常執政上面或政策設計上一個非常好的一個建議那我們會朝友善的方式來處理"},{"start":553.821,"end":571.92,"text":"那請農業多努力 包括今天老農今天你們這個版本每次都是這樣子看到立法院提案要審查你們才跟進今天我們根本沒有這個農業部或行政院的版本可以討論啊沒有 我剛才說今天只是備群大家交換意見嘛後續行政院的版本送進來的話反正行政機關部門總是看著辦啦 這樣不好啦請多加油 好 謝謝好 謝謝陳偉 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請一下陳彥博次長好 次長有請 謝謝葉協榮局長 陳文睿局長 林福山局長"},{"start":20.49,"end":46.82,"text":"市長好 推動自衛制的一個修法其實是要有利於公部門的流產跟攬產那目前各單位自衛制人員的一個統計公路局 高工局 航港局他們平均年資都大概22年 23年 24年也大概都跟我到交通委員會的時間差不多 都算港鐵"},{"start":48.2,"end":73.64,"text":"那在這樣一個狀況裡面其實我們看到他們的平均年齡也大概跟我們也都差不多啦那其實我們面對這種狀況最主要是要討論說近年來交通跟土木工程的這種面臨人才的缺乏其實問題是非常嚴重那也影響到公務機關那出現不少的公務人員"},{"start":75.021,"end":99.49,"text":"轉任民間那甚至甚至是考取公務人員的資格之後啊他仍然前往民間就業狀況其實是非常嚴重的那提升待遇改善同仁的業務環境確保待遇的一個平等我想是成為流財攬財的一個重要的關鍵那同時在公路局高工局跟航港局"},{"start":100.646,"end":122.535,"text":"高階公務人員逐漸的一個退休那他們經驗豐富而且經歷也完整的這種中下層的職位制人員他們面臨什麼上面的退休但是中下層這些優秀人員他沒有辦法晉升那導致這一種"},{"start":124.264,"end":149.489,"text":"他們平時就晉升無門所以變成他們也難以禁用就是說新進的公務人員也難以禁用因為你上面的沒有動中下階層沒辦法升那新進人員更不用說啦那這種大量的資位制人員不管是公路局高工局或航港局啊他們平均年資都超過20年那"},{"start":151.363,"end":177.811,"text":"目前相關人員的數量跟連資情況來部長你次長你清楚嗎簡單說明一下我想相關的這個人數大概就如剛才委員就如這個簡報這裡所說明的大概公路局這裡頭是416人高工局大概57人然後航港局大概有108人那其實委員剛才特別提到自衛制其實就是希望這幾個機關"},{"start":179.631,"end":207.797,"text":"包含了很多重大工程或者是航港的相關的工程也都是一樣都希望他們是久任而且能夠把他們的專業留下來所以自衛制本身是這樣的一個設計所以如果把這樣的自衛制它無法轉任就是剛才委員特別提到的有的是上不去有的是既然你上不去下面就補不來那整個機關裡頭就產生一個斷層的現象一個斷層 一個僵化的體制如果這樣繼續下去可能不利於機關的誘人"},{"start":208.837,"end":234.704,"text":"中下階層 經驗豐富的人他上不去那新進的更沒有機會啦那如果像更高階的他其實可以賦予他更重要的責任他其實也可以再上去或者是到其他機關去服務啦這個是我第二次針對職位制人員啦的人事制度來提出提案的一個修法是 我們很謝謝委員更早以前啦其實職位制人員如果"},{"start":235.444,"end":253.121,"text":"他沒辦法轉任他只是留任原職就是撐這種原序定植物離職時為止那這所造成的結果就是機關用人必要時候他連調降都沒有辦法"},{"start":253.837,"end":276.74,"text":"那過去我提出相關的修正它最主要就是說將原本留任原子稱原序定之位之植物至離子時為止修正為將留任原序定之位同序列或較低序列之植物至離子時為止給予用人單位的這種調降的可能"},{"start":277.481,"end":280.242,"text":"那這一次在針對自衛制來進行討論就是說如果派控人員已經全面的鬆綁那自衛制人員應該做出相對應的一個調整來次長說明一下是我們非常認同這個委員的一個看法跟提案說明"},{"start":294.349,"end":316.874,"text":"因為其實就自衛制的同仁來講他其實還是某種程度有經過國家的一個考試所以就權益的保障其實他應該更要受到整個國家的保障或信賴的一個保護所以如果派用已經有做一些調整我覺得自衛制同仁更應該來比照這樣的方式來做處理我是看修法後的這種自衛制人員的晉升雖然獲得開放"},{"start":319.656,"end":336.727,"text":"但是仍然還要有相應的考訓的一個制度那過去智慧制人員他是經過深知考來進行調整那未來修法通過之後針對智慧制人員的一個調升預計要進行怎樣的一個辦理"},{"start":338.788,"end":360.5,"text":"我覺得他現在有一個真知真神所以他會經過一個對 他會經過一個真神然後也會經過一個訓練訓練合格以後才有可能有晉升的一個機會相對應的考訓的一個制度仍然要快速的建立起來這是修法又有一個重要的方向是 這我們會來注意 謝謝委員好 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有請我們陳次長好 次長有請 謝謝我也好次長 我想現在這個藍白的立委這忙著政治鬥爭尤其他們關心什麼要彈劾賴總統而已真的完全不顧我們台灣的這個民生還有我們這個整個這個明年總預算的一個執行要癱瘓我們這個中央政府跟地方政府"},{"start":35.49,"end":53.565,"text":"那當然我想我們要關切的還是在於說今天已經是12月24號 還有一星期就進入一個新的年度那剛剛我們 包含我們培育委員也好我們幾位委員在關心的是未來這樣總預算沒有省那我們的中央政府跟地方政府執行的上面"},{"start":54.085,"end":80.399,"text":"尤其我們關心的這個交通建設也好很多這個百姓的這個T-pass的權益也好當然我想行政院包含我們交通部我想面對後面這個明年新的這個年度到底要怎麼樣對大眾去強調說這個未來對百姓權益受影響的部分市長我想是不是有一個比較明確的一個說法能夠讓大眾知道他們未來面臨的這個壓力跟損害的部分能不能做一個說明"},{"start":81.312,"end":100.384,"text":"我想跟委員報告因為所有的交通的施政大概都是會從預算上來表達所以剛才有特別提到如果年度的預算如果沒有排審來通過以後那雖然有既有的預算機制可以去動用既有的計畫可以來推動但是對於新興的一個計畫可能會受到影響"},{"start":101.144,"end":128.345,"text":"我們也都曉得很多的計畫就是因為與時俱進所以才會推出所有的新興的計畫當然在這樣的情況下那個就會受到影響所以大家比較關切的跟很多民眾有關的像TPAS這樣的一個政策就會受到影響所以這部分我想我們會跟社會大眾在廣泛的一個說明說如果預算沒有通過對於交通部相關施政上的一個影響會是怎樣"},{"start":129.286,"end":147.488,"text":"同樣的也會說明對他們的影響會是怎樣對 我想這個必須要講清楚說明白誰造的因 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謝謝主席是請陳主計長還有莊部長好 請陳主計長 莊部長"},{"start":17.386,"end":40.3,"text":"委員好主席長你好主席長因為卓院長上個禮拜接受專訪的時候表示根據統計明年度新興計畫中有超過兩千億元受影響沒有辦法來推動那卓院長指責在野黨就是要讓執政團隊沒有政績阻礙整個國家的前進那主席長"},{"start":41.661,"end":50.766,"text":"主計總數預估明年GDP成長率只有3.54%那請問這項統計預估有沒有加入卓院長所說的新興計畫2000億受影響的因素嗎 有沒有"},{"start":57.825,"end":72.932,"text":"還沒有加入那如果沒有對 要是沒有的話那請問你認為2000億的新興計畫一估影響多少的經濟成長率一估多少我跟委員報告每100億會影響0.05%的一個百分比那換句話說會影響到1%嗎是不是"},{"start":84.61,"end":111.369,"text":"這個國會不能亂講話還是有可能變成負經濟成長反過來說如果有從經濟成長率來看卓院長對在野的指責是不是太過武斷因為你沒有把他納進去你現在說這個要加這兩千億然後經濟成長率差了百分之一你說原來我們三年五四意思就是說加進去變成四年五四是不是"},{"start":112.628,"end":129.822,"text":"是不是 百分之4.54這一個部分呢 它大概就針對業務費和設備費它會影響每100億大概0.05個百分點這是我們預估的那你也不是 也不是說在推動這個 因為你它有兩項嘛 經常門跟資本門嘛你這個並不是租資本門啊你怎麼可以這樣講呢"},{"start":140.115,"end":146.043,"text":"也有資本能資本能可能部分啦但是你還沒有納進去你怎麼可以說這個是在野黨對不對除外我們整個執政團隊讓執政團隊沒有政績這等於是亂講話嘛對不對如果沒有"},{"start":154.734,"end":164.483,"text":"你身為主席長難道你不應該跟院長建議嗎不能這樣講啊 對不對那個主席長 左院長指責立法院通過的裁劃法絕對會影響你就是少嘛 你本來就是估計3.54嘛你加這個就變成4.54嘛 剛剛你有講啊 對不對那你現在 主席長 左院長指責立法院通過的裁劃法再修正版"},{"start":179.918,"end":195.724,"text":"有其明顯違憲之處所以他不附屬這項立院三讀通過的法律案主席長行政院送立法院的預算案經過立法院三讀通過行政院是不是也有附屬權"},{"start":199.349,"end":220.982,"text":"行政院長是不是也有戶屬權如果115年度三千億新興計畫立院也三讀全三那你認為行政院到底是要欣然接受接受總統公布的結果還是他可以如同最近財化法修正一樣實行不戶屬讓三讀通過的總預算案沒有辦法公布"},{"start":221.843,"end":239.008,"text":"因為這個通過的部分我們執行確定確實是有困難因為如果說我們要照編的話那絕對超過公債法一個部分2646億超過我們公債法的一個規定所以這個執行是有困難主席長"},{"start":240.448,"end":262.983,"text":"財化法修正版立院已經刪讀行政院長不附屬製造憲政爭議為了115年度預算案又拿新興計畫3000億可能造成國家整個前景的受阻企圖來抹黑在野黨的立委請問主席長到底是應該無條件尊重立法院多數"},{"start":265.494,"end":279.219,"text":"多數決後的預算審查結果還是沒有條件來支持行政院長獨斷否決立法院多數決下的一個附屬權請您做您的看法"},{"start":279.79,"end":306.331,"text":"坦白說我們是希望能夠盡量來執行但是執行確實是有困難所以才會沒有辦法我跟你講啦 主計長從你上任主計長到現在什麼都是困難啦包括去年多少讓你自己去調30%多少你也說有困難 歷任都沒有困難這裡很多財委會的委員包括很多官員都在場只有你有困難 其他都沒有困難我認為你真的不盡職啦"},{"start":307.592,"end":310.856,"text":"那是真的是有困難而且如果說要對於那個那個一些管制的項目來刪減的話那是真的有困難"},{"start":324.187,"end":349.644,"text":"這個開啟不護署權的先例未來立法機關只要出現嘲笑野大的局面行政院都可以依其好惡行使護署權那請問主席長護署權大於民意機關多數覺得結果是不是會讓立法委員連預算審查到最後都可能只留於行政院的橡皮圖章"},{"start":351.024,"end":369.712,"text":"的地位 試問這是大家所期待的結果嗎大家所期待的結果嗎我們大家都不願意看到這樣的一個情況我們是代表人民來監督政府的但是問題就是說我們實際上執行是有困難你什麼都有困難啦 講實在話你是非常不盡責 那個部長來我請問你 莊部長"},{"start":375.535,"end":394.833,"text":"上個禮拜四 央行李監事公布最新經濟預測除了今年的經濟成長率上修到7.31%也同步預估明年成長率3.67%不漲那你身為央行理事請問你對明年經濟成長率比今年低有什麼看法"},{"start":396.062,"end":418.203,"text":"我想在有關經濟成長率的估測不管我們主計總署也好 央行也好都是參著了國內外整體的經濟情勢所做的一個估測的結果部長 明年財政部主導稅收預估你認為對比今年的預算數與時增數的落差到底是變小還是變大"},{"start":420.049,"end":443.215,"text":"跟委員報告明年的我們的稅客收入在報告裡面我們事實上是比今年的預算數來得少那主要是因為有稅收短徵是不是不是稅收短徵是因為財化法的修正那在撥給地方的部分要增加到4000多億所以中央的稅客收入就比今年的預算數來得少主要是這個原因"},{"start":444.471,"end":471.812,"text":"那個羊毛都出在羊身上啦過去你撥給多少你們當然就本身不會再列預算給他們了那其實齁那個部長蘇建榮在任部長的時候曾說稅收超增是整體經濟擴張所帶來的自然現象並非違法超增而當時的經濟成長也是超於預期所以稅收和經濟成長能夠成正比"},{"start":472.912,"end":478.634,"text":"對照今年整個經濟成長超過7%的超乎預期主計總數預估達到7.37%但稅收卻短增外界在質疑整個國內財政轉換你認為"},{"start":490.717,"end":516.593,"text":"你卻說這是預算數和時增數的數字落差 部長稅收預算數少於時增數就好比原本預計要賺10萬那結果到最後只賺9萬那我請問部長收入變少如果不是景氣變差所導致難道政府機關的預算會像乞丐許大院一樣最後拿到多少都認為是天意嗎"},{"start":518.28,"end":537.582,"text":"跟委員報告114年的稅客收入的預算在編列比去年的時增數就增加了947億而今年我們認為到12月底為止我們全年的專案的稅客收入可以達到98%到99%其實基本上是非常接近了預算數"},{"start":538.323,"end":561.228,"text":"而稅客收入的影響的因素相當的多經濟成長只是一個而且部分的稅務因為今年的經濟成長他的稅客收入的實現數會在明年譬如上所得稅是課明年是課今年的不管是個人所得也好或者是盈利事業的獲利都會在明年呈現所以這個部分各個稅務情況是有不同的跟委員說明是"},{"start":561.408,"end":571.737,"text":"副部長 今年稅收短徵你強調不是財政轉壞或財政不好截至到11月底今年稅入實徵數為兩兆6350億元比去年同期實徵數還高出539億元按照今年整個預估經濟成長率和2024年經濟成長率的4.59%實徵數啊"},{"start":584.968,"end":606.095,"text":"陳正比增加應該合乎邏輯那我請問部長如果時增數合乎邏輯為何預算數會不合乎邏輯呢這本席很奇怪 感覺很奇怪剛剛本席曾以蘇建榮前部長所說明的稅收超增是整體經濟擴張所帶來的自然現象那今年稅收短增"},{"start":607.795,"end":614.099,"text":"如果不是財政轉換或不加所帶來特定的稅收經濟萎縮難道經濟擴張還會帶來超自然現象嗎我們的預算數今年114年的稅客收入預算數比113年的實增數增加到947億就接近1000億了"},{"start":628.486,"end":650.866,"text":"所以这个部分我们现在的时增数跟预算数之间的差距大概1%一定是会小于2%所以我们可以达到98%到99%其实非常接近的预算数了所以没有所谓的财政转坏这样的一个情况跟委员说明谢谢委员谢谢林委员接下来我们请吴秉瑞委员"}]}},{"id":"166595","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166595","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d6021507287eab262d0edbd2ae366782b1ab335d4796f3eb88d31c2673164c3cee95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:08:30 - 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Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T09:09:54+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T09:13:40+08:00","duration":226,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.764093750000001,"end":7.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.586593750000002,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.029093750000001,"end":15.657218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.011593750000003,"end":18.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.30221875,"end":20.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.80409375,"end":40.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.290343750000005,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.58971875,"end":45.188468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.76221875,"end":49.322843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.91346875,"end":51.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.06909375,"end":54.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.908468750000004,"end":58.469093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.73909375,"end":61.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.99596875,"end":62.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.27846875,"end":66.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.65346875,"end":68.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.06659375000001,"end":74.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.95596875000001,"end":77.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.02721875,"end":81.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.60471875,"end":88.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.41784375,"end":90.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.66659375,"end":91.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.35409375,"end":97.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.65284375,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.27284375,"end":101.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.27659375,"end":104.67284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.80784375,"end":110.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.27534375,"end":115.21971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.57409375,"end":117.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.61596875000001,"end":118.61159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.03346875000001,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.07534375,"end":122.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.08346875000001,"end":125.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.95221875000001,"end":129.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.90096875,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.78971875000002,"end":142.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.13096875000002,"end":147.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.70409375,"end":149.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.65721875,"end":162.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.80721875,"end":164.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.08534375000002,"end":165.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.18221875,"end":172.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.67909375000002,"end":173.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.97846875000002,"end":179.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.58096875,"end":182.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.48346875000001,"end":185.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.79096875000002,"end":188.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.94659375,"end":197.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.19409375,"end":199.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.64534375000002,"end":202.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.02034375000002,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.10034375,"end":211.39034375},{"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大家好修正老年農民獲利 緊貼條例是海洋農民應該有的權利跟正義君主修正 這是為了飛營貴企向低估的膨脹現實也是兌現政府照顧農民承諾的必要行動第一"},{"start":32.614,"end":35.075,"text":"現行勞動緊貼調整的機制已經明顯對於有機上漲的速度近來受到通膨影響主機處所通過的技藥、新化技術大幅上升"},{"start":53.12,"end":60.002,"text":"好像民國一段空間和一段十二年中央的民生物業實際上累積政府就已經大概13%經濟調整的負擔不如解放我們老人生死的生活的壓力我們四年才撿到這塊經濟"},{"start":78.924,"end":89.513,"text":"顯現固執環及自治在軍事所主張的提供緊張經驗落實對勞動機關的過程古年三月軍事提出的手法是更改第一項主張勞動緊張條件更規劃一萬兩千坑的提案"},{"start":102.965,"end":117.961,"text":"國際就是要把過去多年未邀的當歡迎武家上場的國分先害亡人民,真的就是最之前的身外故障第三,調整過去時的開戶門檻,撤戶撤殺"},{"start":123.226,"end":127.428,"text":"需要供照顧的勞動現行的開戶條款自民國一百年訂好寫了後十幾年來無所謂就無法溝通管家建棟調遷期間土地到公屋頂不動善基礎大幅上漲我真的歡迎到世界這個財富的總統也給過時的民間"},{"start":150.714,"end":161.701,"text":"婚禮造成到我們這套性的無功夫所以老農今天是已經三十年不應該以戰行之名照顧我們這個農民老農農民"},{"start":166.423,"end":187.853,"text":"福利今天自民國94年實施到這陣子早已經成為我們中華民國重要和穩定社會福利的這個制度到了年輕 歸因改改 繼續使用暫行兩億的這個制度定位繼續要來回歸正軌"},{"start":189.033,"end":194.116,"text":"各位總理 軍事決戰所叫做修正牢籠緊貼的制度是構造一個已經和復合成功的制度你看他有幾年來合作"},{"start":205.628,"end":219.979,"text":"我們這個市長為臺灣農業付出一生的長輩當這個有給高漲的今天日能夠是最極限 也最有尊嚴的這個生活拜託我們各位總理來支持軍人 感謝"}]}},{"id":"166591","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166591","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d6033aa1f19a8db419f8f4e93bf07b6087fb335d4796f3eb88dab647807d61d1a7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:05:44 - 09:08:21","影片長度":"00:02:37","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T09:05:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T09:08:21+08:00","duration":157,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.69659375,"end":39.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.77159375,"end":153.22221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.901,"end":22.369,"text":"主席還有各位官員各位同仁大家早今天其實站在這裡心情是非常沉重的因為我們常說農為國之本台灣有今天這樣經濟發展事實上靠的就是農業但是呢目前我們給的老農今天一個月是新台幣8110元各位"},{"start":25.851,"end":39.871,"text":"8110元現在能做些什麼現在隨便一個便當都要100多塊而8110元平均下來一天只有270塊可以用所以可以說是農民簡直在吃土這不是進行式而是現在的一個慘況"},{"start":41.653,"end":66.058,"text":"那我們回頭看看這些數據這幾年來物價像坐火箭一樣衝上去但是我們的老農今天卻像是釘在地板上動彈不得依據衛福部公告的標準今年的台灣的最低生活費是15515元可是我們給的老農今天竟然只是最低生活費的一半這不僅是不夠更是羞辱我們辛苦一輩子的老農民"},{"start":66.958,"end":80.502,"text":"雖然我們這份提案的原始版本我本來是先希望調到一萬元但是看到這陣子物價失控的程度以及國民黨團大家共同的決心所以我們現在要告訴行政部門為了讓農民能夠活得有尊嚴不能在貧窮線下掙扎我們主張應該要一步到位直接比照最低生活費的標準將老農津貼調漲到每個月一萬五千元"},{"start":93.506,"end":120.055,"text":"這不是漫天寒假而是讓老農能夠活下去的救命前除了金額太少現在的制度更是僵化到令人憤怒因為老農今天每四年才能檢討一次而現在的物價指數每天都在飆漲所以本席也主張這次修法要把調整週期縮短改為每兩年就要檢討一次而且如果消費者物價指數年成長率超過3%就要立刻啟動調整"},{"start":122.316,"end":136.798,"text":"還有一個問題就是排富條款目前我們的排富門檻已經整整超過14年沒有調整了那這些老農住在祖傳的房子裡雖然帳面的價值變高但他們的口袋根本沒有錢結果變成假富人真貧窮"},{"start":137.799,"end":152.355,"text":"所以本席也主張要放寬排付條款將土地房屋價值的門檻調高把那些無辜被排除在外的乾坤狼重新納入照顧的範圍請大家一起來照顧我們這些辛苦的老農謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166609","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166609","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60c591df63454a0da599d297ff50ba03de91760b03f9a190b7da6c27b9980abdb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:53:19 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有請傅政成副主委來 副主委喂 好副主委 早安今天早上我們真的是外交國防委會真的難得如此的輕鬆滿桌都是退府會高山農場所帶來的農產品不管是用的 吃的 喝的 茶的 抹的全部都有"},{"start":28.775,"end":37.899,"text":"而且我看起來因為早上我就要來來稍微觀察了一下真的品質是非常的優質而且我們還跟故宮聯名所以有些產品它的包裝其實是非常的精美的可是我發現真的就是剛剛我們陳俊文所提到的因為這些產品"},{"start":47.544,"end":73.015,"text":"真的很多都是我們第一次在這裡看到那平常呢如果說沒有見到我們的銷售的這個網站或是到這個農場去的話或是到新興百貨去的話我們真的在平常的一些商場是幾乎沒有看到這些產品的這個蹤跡真的是比較可惜所以我們比較建議就是說以後這個銷售的管道呢可以更加的這個多元化讓一般的民眾呢平常都能夠容易去做這個觸及"},{"start":76.156,"end":87.259,"text":"這是我們這邊看到的這個產品如此的優質我們想不管是自用送禮其實都是非常的適合尤其是國際友人我覺得要送給國際友人當這個伴手禮我想這個都是非常適合的所以我在想這個銷售跟這個觸及這個部分我想應該要更加來做這個多元"},{"start":97.122,"end":109.403,"text":"那當然剛剛有提到就是說可能未來我們會到跟這個國軍的平台或是榮運來做這個結合可是我覺得不應該只有這樣那有辦法到其他的賣場去做鋪畫嗎這部分請問副主委"},{"start":112.186,"end":133.663,"text":"我們再多開發一些管路跟平台對 我是覺得如果品質很好像我剛才看的青青農場的這個產品你看它這個女性的這個朋友應該會非常的喜歡它有這個綿羊油 面膜然後包裝也都非常的這個柔性可是我今天真的是第一次在這裡看到我覺得這個應該要多多來做這個來做行銷"},{"start":137.186,"end":159.908,"text":"OK好那再來呢我要針對這個我們三所高山農場也就是武陵清津福壽山的這個經營行銷跟這個觀光的推廣我想剛剛也說了很多的這個說明可是呢這三所高山農場的這個遊客數一年不如一年我想這都是不爭的這個事實那我們看清津農場"},{"start":161.129,"end":183.025,"text":"到目前為止 去年 今年真的都還沒有回到像疫情之前的遊客數那像今天農場幾乎都是腰斬的那武陵也是 武陵過去的話其實我看都還有三四十萬的人數可是去年就不行了 就不到三十萬 今年也是一樣所以像這個部分的話 到底出了什麼狀況"},{"start":184.486,"end":191.871,"text":"那不是單單只有就是說因為有風災啦有這個地震的關係應該有很多的這個因素我在想很多這個"},{"start":193.619,"end":221.652,"text":"資源沒有辦法整合我想這是一個很大的這個原因因為我們看到這親近商圈今年出現很明顯的一些骨牌式的這個撤出像這個大院子莫凡比餐廳薰衣草森林歐都那等等這些大品牌都相繼的退出了尤其是這個我們以前都說我們要到全台海拔最高的這星巴克來喝一杯咖啡它已經經營20年了可是今年的7月它就正式歇業了"},{"start":221.992,"end":230.115,"text":"我真的覺得非常的這個可惜喔像清境農場的這個知名的這個文創據點清境紙香王創業園區它也經營了17年今年的11月也歇業了那清境農場本來呢它的養牛事業其實過去的話其實也是非常的蓬勃"},{"start":239.039,"end":263.997,"text":"在2023年也結束營業所以青青農場不可能我們只有羊妹妹啦或者是青青草原啦我今天會特別想要講青青農場是因為過去我去過青青農場非常多次十年前跟十年後真的是感覺上真的落差很大就像台語所形容的就現在真的嬉比很多以前過去十年前我們到青青農場可能還會擔心像假日會有這個塞車的問題"},{"start":267.179,"end":272.426,"text":"像現在連假日去的話我都覺得說交通順暢很多了那是為什麼因為遊客減少了車輛減少了所以我在想這個部分應該是要來徹底檢討的這個部分我們不能指控有這個優質的產品這遊客"},{"start":284.582,"end":303.477,"text":"我們要如何讓它回流那像前幾天我也看到一些網友在討論清淨農場你看他在形容什麼說沿路民宿雜亂無章空租店面充斥那很多的這個知名品牌都撤出了所以我們不能說只有自己自營的部分"},{"start":304.378,"end":327.335,"text":"我們去做這個修繕那我有看到就是說我們像我們的這個我們好像國賓的那個飯店我們有去做修繕等等可是這個只是自營的部分那我們要如何跟周遭的周邊的商圈來做合作我覺得這個合作的機制可能不足因為我有看到前陣子"},{"start":327.975,"end":354.276,"text":"也有一些退出的業者他提出了很多的問題我想這個部分應該是補導會跟清淨農場要特別來做這個留意的部分這個部分我們副主委有沒有要說明的部分因為我今天特別想要強調的是清淨農場因為我覺得好可惜一個這麼優風景宜人的這個地區居然造成這個旅客慢慢的不來了這個部分真的很需要做檢討"},{"start":355.467,"end":375.024,"text":"是 谢委员 谢委员清津农场的关系要我一个一个跟委员做报告那确实在疫情之后呢这两年呢我们的农场高山农场的游客有减少那主要是受到地震台风那个强下雨那交通有一些很多的管制措施"},{"start":375.945,"end":391.272,"text":"那當然降低了我們國人規劃到山林旅遊的一些意願所以說有些下降但我們也有很多的一些措施像剛剛委員所講的清新農場周邊的一些商圈"},{"start":392.392,"end":415.635,"text":"那我們統一是由統一超商來一個統一來經營那因為他的一個一個招商的策略的改變所以說結束了這些那個星巴克的這個營運但他已經改由本土的咖啡品牌TGC來進駐那上線的營運基本上在我們這個農場的部分是正常的"},{"start":416.576,"end":439.079,"text":"那第三個就是有關商圈的一些結合我們也在想辦法推出跟部落特色的商品以及原住民烘味餐那未來我們也會跟偉銀商偉銀的廠商來洽談合作整合行銷辦理比較特色的活動"},{"start":440.68,"end":462.427,"text":"串連各個商圈來提升整體的觀光的吸引力像我們有奔陽節也好或者是燕尾節、長街宴雲南的滇緬的這些活動我們跟博望新村的一些合作把這些滇緬義包這些特色把它給"},{"start":464.367,"end":491.033,"text":"發展出來那麼這我們慢慢會按照委員的這個指導我們一步一步來來做一個商圈的結合謝謝副主委剛才所提到其實都是現在進行式只是說如何去做加強你剛才講的滇緬餐什麼這些其實這意思都有因為我過去一直常常上京津農場這些其實我們都有嘗試過剛剛副主委您有提到的因為地震跟颱風所以造成一些道路的損害跟封閉"},{"start":491.613,"end":510.715,"text":"所以有一些人會覺得就直接就貼上一個標籤說清淨農場不安全所以甚至到遇到颱風就馬上取消這個就馬上就退房了所以造成可是問題是我們總會有修復嘛總會有災後修復嘛現在就有業者在反映就是說"},{"start":512.236,"end":539.653,"text":"在災情的時候 當然媒體會大肆的報導讓民眾覺得說 清淨農場很不安全可是災後修復之後 其實我們並沒有做到就是說 其實我們已經做修復了我們很歡迎大家回到山上來可是這一點真的是業者有在反映這個部分我們後續這個部分沒有做加強 沒有去做宣導那再來還有就是說 OK 說實在的一整年下來 我們真的看不到清淨農場有什麼大型的活動"},{"start":540.513,"end":550.059,"text":"除了就是說這個比如說剛剛有提到的就是說跨年晚會可是跨年跨年的這個晚會他們也覺得說都已經是已經是非常老舊了不夠新鮮所以很多年輕人應該是覺得很新鮮到鄉上去到親戚農場去跨年可是現在很多人可能也不去可是你總不能一整年親戚農場只靠跨年那一場吧那全年來講的話幾乎沒有什麼大型的活動吸引不了人潮"},{"start":569.511,"end":582.875,"text":"所以這是那時我們又整理了一些業者他們的反應的一些事情他們希望說像交通也是一樣那希望就是說能達到這個可達性跟可被看見性其實清淨農場真的是我真的說真的是沒落啦跟早期我們去跟現在這看起來真的是還蠻難過的所以這部分真的很需要大家來做加強所以那當然這個"},{"start":597.219,"end":615.885,"text":"剛剛副主委有提到說要招商的方式改變其實像星巴克他們真的覺得說真的是遊客數不足他們經營不下去了真的就撤出很大的原因因為現在不是只有星巴克有這麼多的品牌這個廠商都已經撤出了這其實就是一個很大的警訊"},{"start":617.445,"end":644.027,"text":"這部分當然要討論的有很多那今天我是特別針對清淨農場這個需要做檢討我們真的希望就是說清淨農場可以回到過去的這個榮景我想需要努力的地方真的是非常非常的多雖然委員的指導我們把交通的可見性跟大型活動我們來研究然後讓它更吸引更多的遊客進來OK 好 大家加油 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也感謝交通部同仁所以我支持你們的人員要鬆綁下一頁"},{"start":128.547,"end":157.128,"text":"第二個呢 淘機三航廈明天北郎廳是不是要正式啟用明天下午這也是跨世紀啊我們同樣邀請到普利茲克建築得主英國的Richard Rogers那真的是不容易啊在困難的交通工程我們都克服了困境那明天是北郎廳正式啟用那第三航廈預計2027年完工目前進度如何"},{"start":158.376,"end":175.204,"text":"正朝這個方向積極的來轉改所以說北郎廳八個大型登機門明天啟用可以擴大服務580萬人次一年第三航廈的整體工程呢更可以提升讓淘機的服務人次要升到8200萬我支持"},{"start":177.785,"end":206.436,"text":"所以有好表現在人事上給予鬆綁我支持下一頁所以今天的三個法比較派用人員鬆綁自衛制人員與官務人員的調任升遷的規定有利於強化人才的輪調跟培育來鼓勵交通部門人員的士氣我都支持也呼籲跨黨派的委員一起來支持所以在人力的鬆綁我們一起來促成下一頁"},{"start":207.276,"end":225.274,"text":"但是總預算沒有審查這件事情就不是執政黨一黨能夠來左右的真的要懇請在野黨的委員行行好預算就是民生預算沒有顏色"},{"start":226.275,"end":241.35,"text":"倒數八天 審預算的期限就要到了 但是今年是連審都沒有審 就像是一個學生要畢業了 連第一本課本的第一頁都還沒有翻開"},{"start":242.691,"end":259.253,"text":"怎麼會有這樣子的國會呢那交通部是重災戶TPAS的部分75億每天每當還有交通部的經常性的延續性計畫新增也高達248億我要就教於次長下一頁"},{"start":260.094,"end":280.417,"text":"TPAS的部分我們提升了2.0對於公運的常客的回饋甚至今年12月啟用的91條中長程國道客運路線當月搭兩次就可以享回扣這就是提升我們公共運輸的量能鼓勵大家嘛"},{"start":281.118,"end":297.619,"text":"但是呢TPAS的預算這樣受到影響Total 364億裡頭是75億受到總預算未審查的影響嘛對不對下一頁可不可以清楚的告訴我們受影響最多的是哪一些區域的乘客權益呢"},{"start":299.484,"end":312.229,"text":"我想就是委員特別這個畫面上所呈現的就是北北基桃的這個通勤的人數會受到影響最大的影響所以TPAS如果總預算新興計畫的預算2992億裡頭98.2萬通勤族的權益受影響受影響最多的就是北北基桃"},{"start":322.072,"end":333.983,"text":"的通勤族高達52.8萬人我們在場有志強委員我們同樣是台北市的立委是不是能夠來為通勤族發聲"},{"start":337.907,"end":361.58,"text":"如果TPAS的預算75億受到影響那台北市恐怕要先用市政府的預算來支應是這樣嗎否則你第三應該是第一季之後應該是四月以後就斷吹了嗎相關的預算因為沒有通過它又是屬於新興的一個預算所以這部分的交通部相關的一個補助環大概就沒辦法支應"},{"start":362.458,"end":373.765,"text":"所以沒有辦法支應的話 除非市政府願意來是 就是地方政府可能要來做相關的處理所以如果羅志強不支持總預算審查可能要蔣萬安買單了"},{"start":376.368,"end":396.077,"text":"所以我们希望我们呼吁预算就是民生我呼吁我们各个县市的当然也不止首都圈啦不好意思是想我用我特别看到您进来是因为北北鸡桃在Tpass的通勤族受害的人数是最多的好下一页另外在交通部门"},{"start":397.097,"end":410.538,"text":"如果總預算繼續不審查對於經常性的經費當中延續性資本的支出Total也有248億受影響對不對哪些重大的交通建設新增的預算就下不去了"},{"start":413.955,"end":426.786,"text":"這裡頭委員特別提到的很多的不管是鐵路尤其是鐵路公路當然也有啦鐵路的桃園鐵路地下化54億新增預算沒有辦法執行花東地區鐵路雙軌電氣化新增28億預算沒有辦法到位嘉義市區鐵路高架化新增20億沒有辦法支用台南市"},{"start":437.455,"end":449.453,"text":"的鐵路地下化21億也會受到影響還有包括針對國旅加碼補助Total 35億都會受到影響我這樣的羅列是不是正確"},{"start":450.486,"end":465.441,"text":"像委員特別提到的這個觀光的這個國旅補助確實它是一個是全民嘛對不對它是一個新興的計畫那另外還有的是公路上還有所謂的高屏二快的那也是一個新興的計畫高屏二快也受影響所以從桃園張善政市長要關心了54億如果沒有辦法補貼到位那桃園的交通建設怎麼辦"},{"start":474.17,"end":502.422,"text":"花東地區呢 我們的立委們副官及總召門也要關心到鐵路雙軌電企劃新增的預算如果總預算未審沒有辦法到位那花東的市民們他們的權益就會受到影響好 最後 來淡北道路的衝擊會嚴重影響北投的交通我擔任立委 我從議員到立委一路的來監督沒有辦法阻擋得了"},{"start":503.422,"end":530.821,"text":"但是我們至少配套要做好我想您過去也到思瑤的辦公室我們討論過無數次好淡北道路已經給了補助下一頁現在新北我們給了59億佔57%中央來協助新北市進行淡北道路我再一次講我站在北投區立委的立場我是非常非常的質疑因為配套沒有到位那"},{"start":533.305,"end":555.088,"text":"沒辦法我只好想方設法我擋不下淡北道路我只能夠從中央來幫助雙北市政府至少要做好配套至少要做好配套才不會讓淡北道路未來上路之後真的造成北投區交通的噩夢那今天跟你們相關因為公路局也在這"},{"start":556.469,"end":572.675,"text":"對於思瑤爭取中央可以出資18億補助新北市興建關渡新橋因為我們認為這是一個能夠來排解淡北道路衝擊大渡路交通的一個方案現在進度如何"},{"start":576.084,"end":588.463,"text":"現在正由新北市政府在做相關規劃我要跟市長報告您的了解也是我的了解可是你們是交通部的"},{"start":589.871,"end":613.603,"text":"長官你們有專業你們有power中央給了59億協助新北蓋淡北道路我拜託配套去盯緊一點侯友宜不要拿了錢騎馬的配套承諾給北投居民的侯友宜市長也好蔣萬安市長也好承諾要改善淡北道路的後續交通配套的說到要做到我們要超前部署"},{"start":617.405,"end":632.799,"text":"新北市確實還在評估可行性評估有四個方案評估了N年了這一個關渡新橋誰爭取的不是侯友宜不是蔣萬安是吳思瑤在地的立委中央也願意出錢買單了那麼不要再讓新北繼續慢半拍我們督促督促看他的評估如何好嗎"},{"start":642.739,"end":655.679,"text":"好委員的建議我會積極的責請公路局來加入他們的我請次長跟局長我們也是會後來安排來到本席我們私下來討論這件事情好嗎我們到委員辦公室好謝謝謝謝教委謝謝大家謝謝吳思堯"}]}},{"id":"166607","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166607","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d607bfa19358ba2dcfc63a8c7f6258665b2b335d4796f3eb88daa518cd20a1dc6235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:42:12 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我等一下要問的幾位長官一起財政部長 主計長還有經濟部的何次長"},{"start":18.997,"end":34.947,"text":"還有衛福部的林次長還有陸委會的梁副主委交通部的次長好不好一起上來委員好好那請那個剛剛委員所點到的官員我們依序上台陸委會和梁副主任委員"},{"start":43.919,"end":54.772,"text":"好 各位長官好我先問一下主計長今天派這個題目 招委當然有權利派任何題目這個題目 老實講就是很簡單啦 剛才你也講了你們不依法編列啊"},{"start":61.62,"end":72.673,"text":"是立法權如物啊 掏空立法權啊我們三讀通過的法案給軍人加薪 買武器一堆國防預算九千多億然後加任性一千多億 加一兆"},{"start":78.378,"end":94.614,"text":"兩千五百億如果通過的話那整個兩兆多難道不應該給那個軍人志願役的加薪嗎就通過了這個加完薪跟世界比也沒有特別高啊你們不兵勒然後警校退休的"},{"start":95.555,"end":103.019,"text":"要提升為八成看到最近張文事件特別警察很辛苦啊我們要特別的這個要照顧他們讓更多人願意來當警察因為退休保障就這麼簡單的事情這兩個你一劃邊裂可以省"},{"start":112.723,"end":129.794,"text":"為什麼不能審 為什麼不要審總預算當然要審啦 你不依法編列怎麼可以講說你說違憲就違憲請再公告咧 你是大法官啦你怎麼敢講我們通過的叫違憲你又不是大法官怎麼講違憲所以 來 我題目很多 你不要講一堆喔我就問你 來來來 你不要走就問你 你要不要公開承諾"},{"start":137.804,"end":158.847,"text":"審總預算的時候審完馬上追加預算這兩筆追加預算我們就馬上審 就這樣可以承諾嗎可以承諾嗎 YES NO其他不要講就講這個我要跟委員報告齁這一個就是說你這一個你本身我們以前從114年我也有追加那個G的那一個要不要承諾啦 要不要承諾啦"},{"start":159.187,"end":162.969,"text":"這不是我承諾的問題喔 但是我們本身第一個要先籌措裁員依照我們那個財政紀律法要先籌措裁員那這個部分如果有籌措裁員有相關的裁員那這個部分才能夠來辦理追加就這麼簡單的事情你只要答應說我們省完預算馬上追加那很簡單啦我們3兆3兆裡面我們300億砍了一耙300億就可以有啦怎麼沒有錢呢"},{"start":188.22,"end":191.883,"text":"錢在那裡啊 就這麼簡單的事情我們沒有提起釋憲 那我們按照釋憲基礎來辦理你不要講違憲 因為你沒有權利講違憲你不是大法官 不要亂講一通更何況大法官 現在啊 憲政的庫斯拉"},{"start":206.238,"end":224.535,"text":"庫斯拉 憲政怪獸 一個叫賴清德 一個叫卓榮泰現在加五個 游伯祥 鄧 五位大法官 高派那些大小大家都知道公民課 我們開會的時候要法定人數法定人數按照級別 按照舊的憲法要六個 他五個"},{"start":227.077,"end":241.363,"text":"就可以了以後我們想辦法說彈耳賴清耳的時候趁民進黨立委不在的時候不在的統統不算 我就統統通過了變這樣啦 不可以啦主計長 好 你下去喔來 我請教財政部長財政部長委員好我看到你們發布消息啊說啊網紅要課稅有沒有這回事啊"},{"start":255.502,"end":274.291,"text":"跟委員報告對有關稅的話有所得我們就會有課稅的這個議題怎麼課啊 課多少啊有關網紅課稅的部分在我們這次已經訂了相關的規範課幾%你跟我講課幾%並不是所得稅是不是就是境內的網紅當然有我們的所得稅的中所稅"},{"start":275.391,"end":298.286,"text":"對 用中鎖稅來扣 好啊 境外呢境外的話就是境外如果是境外的話是從國內的來源鎖的是我們國內的話那它就是用扣繳百分之二十的數字百分之二十這當作外籍人士扣什麼時候開始生效什麼時候開始生效立即就生效但是我們有立即生效所以有輔導期到明年的六月底"},{"start":298.766,"end":327.214,"text":"明年6月以後就課稅你們都掌握了嗎現在開始課我們現在就開始課請問那你告訴我全部網紅有多少被你課到的全部網紅的數量我看是不是請複稅署說明一下有沒有數量來來趕快因為時間有限趕快多少報告委員掌握到多少我們現在正在輔導當中陸續在發輔導函多少人啊你告訴我目前手上還沒有確切的數字等我們輔導結就是一段時間以後再跟委員報告所以要辦名你接受你輔導啊"},{"start":328.434,"end":330.135,"text":"請經濟部的市長年底的台美關稅能不能搞定"},{"start":348.549,"end":374.208,"text":"因為剩下沒幾天了那美國這邊應該有聖誕節的假期我想可能年底沒辦法搞定農曆節能不能搞定我想這個應該還會牽涉到保保保我就告訴你現在等於川普跟八成要見習近平見面之前都不會搞定啦這才是悲哀啦還有他們要求我們營業500億以上去美國投資有沒有這回事"},{"start":375.549,"end":393.079,"text":"目前 有沒有這回事告訴我因為這個我不清楚這個部分這個東西他們講的我們毫無招架能力真的還不是怪美而已怪美甜美完全的就是他講什麼你看拖這麼久我們剛開始談的時候我們還是前四大前五大開始跟美國談結果到現在為止都沒有"},{"start":403.575,"end":407.657,"text":"要買武器也買了 買了不來啊一兩百億美金的武器也不來我們要的F35也不給我們對不對 結果到現在為止你都沒有答案好 請你回來 我請教那個衛福部的委員長 次長啊你也當過立委當次長喔你是醫生啦"},{"start":429.889,"end":442.902,"text":"日內瓦宣言 醫生日內瓦宣言不得因為宗教 國籍 種族 還有政治有所差別結果現在賴清德總統在2023年選舉總統的時候說你們要給他洗啊 洗久一點啊以前10分鐘就洗20分鐘洗腦他支持賴清德啊"},{"start":452.391,"end":474.796,"text":"連病人都不放過啊要洗腦 還說要告訴門診的醫生說碰到像我們這樣災害黨的利誤 說要省總預算怎麼會叫醫生來干預政治呢連病人都不放過 怎麼會這樣子呢第一個事情 醫師這邊當然不會因為病人的宗教種族等等地位而對他的治療有所猜疑 但是我還是要拜託一下委員在預算非常的重要 因為"},{"start":475.376,"end":490.714,"text":"我們的公務預算裡面我們對於護理師的決議都放在公務預算裡面這次的新增的計畫裡面包含了藥品任性以及我們很多的智慧醫療的部分都在新興預算裡面拜託委員支持我們的預算"},{"start":491.194,"end":502.242,"text":"真的再一次強調委員所關心我們非常多藥品任性的部分國內的藥品能夠自主化都在這次的計畫都在新興計畫裡面拜託委員能夠支持我們的預算讓我們能夠來進行這個部分大家都非常關心我們整個醫療的健全都在公務預算我們的健檢也在這裡面啊我再跟委員報告委員時間很少我一定要跟你們報告預算裡面這麼多重要的部分拜託讓我們能夠執行"},{"start":520.9,"end":528.291,"text":"軍人加薪更重要買這麼多武器 要軍人妳請回 妳請回我當然支持預算但是請你們支持軍人加薪"},{"start":533.787,"end":547.116,"text":"請你們支持憲政中華民國是民主國家依法行政這麼困難嗎這麼困難嗎 依法行政這麼困難嗎為什麼我們通過的你不編可見不起嘛你說今天影響三千億 影響兩千億 影響四千億你們不急啊而且不要讓這個政府沒有因為這樣停擺沒有像美國說關門"},{"start":563.186,"end":564.168,"text":"沒有像美國這樣關門繼續運作然後我請教陸委會的副主委"},{"start":570.68,"end":594.815,"text":"委員好有人說吳鳳山被請辭是因為謝昌廷因為謝昌廷現在沒有位子要給他台日關係協會所以把他擠掉把蘇嘉全擠掉 徐嘉全來做這個吳鳳山的位子這個事情你要不要澄清一下是不是如此關於人事的部分就是由總統府在作業之中作業完畢之後我們會再先跟大家報告確定被請辭不是嗎 吳鳳山被請辭"},{"start":600.766,"end":611.431,"text":"吳鳳山董事長是辭職了 沒有錯對啊 他被請辭 他自己講的被請辭啊人事的部分是由總統府在做作業所以你也不知道 你不敢講來 我們就看來 交通部你看喔 今年的觀光利差1500億喔"},{"start":618.786,"end":642.581,"text":"1500以後其實只要陸客來的話通通拒絕了那個 副主委要不要講一下你為什麼不開放陸客 讓陸客來多一點這個就達到達標 你們要達1000萬的目標 現在達不到啊各位報告 我想我們這個開放陸客我想這部分還是必須要考慮到我們國內的整個情境那現在大陸陸委會的關係啦"},{"start":643.982,"end":648.666,"text":"我們已經有去函對岸 請他們能夠回函給我們然後我們啟動觀光小兩會的對談最近不是你們也辦一個團在北京辦一個北京來報導的一個end away是你們辦的啊"},{"start":667.163,"end":676.793,"text":"那個是我們的台旅會辦的所以我們對觀光的態度一向是很open只是對面遲遲沒有給我們正式的回覆"},{"start":677.591,"end":692.216,"text":"你們可以更open一點 你從那個武皇山被換成蘇嘉軒就知道你們兩岸的關係就希望讓他繼續惡化嘛就是惡化才符合你們的政治利益嘛我們絕對沒有希望要惡化我們希望兩岸關係穩定沒有 如果這樣搞的話 老實講啊這個陸委會都可以拆掉了啦這個陸委會不交流委員會啊實在是好 謝謝 謝謝賴委員接下來我們請賴會議員委員"}]}},{"id":"166606","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166606","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60e856cef912d02aff99d297ff50ba03deb335d4796f3eb88d74d47481ca160e5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:42:27 - 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謝謝趙偉 我們有請我們副主委副主委早"},{"start":11.637,"end":40.524,"text":"好 今天的這個議程比較輕鬆一點那一開場我們看到我們真的是商品琳瑯滿目從食品 飲品 然後到這個美容 化妝品那還有一些甚至比較高規格的這個有機產品那當然這些產品也都是我們退伍會所轄管的這些五大農場所這個生產或是聯名的商品"},{"start":41.304,"end":59.344,"text":"那也深獲這個廣大的消費者喜愛那我想我們退伍會所經營的這些農場不但是作為我們國內重要的一個觀光油氣和這個農業生產單位那在收益上也關乎到照顧我們退出役官兵的一個量能"},{"start":59.904,"end":74.153,"text":"那今天專報的內容來看從農特產品的推廣到旅遊設施的提升各大農場都有相當明確的一個規劃我想就這些特色產品的開發和成果來和副主委來做討論"},{"start":75.848,"end":104.406,"text":"根據我們報告的這個內容我們退伍會目前所採取的是自營生產還有這個合作開發雙軌並行並且因應這個氣候的特色我們高山農場和平地農場的依據不同特性發展不同的這個類型產品當中也列舉我們各大農場所今天今年所推出的新產品非常的多我們剛剛看到應該有超過近百項以上的產品"},{"start":105.066,"end":127.783,"text":"那我剛剛來簽到說那個報告的內容是這個可能只有一部分而已那我們商品的部分可能比這個更多好幾倍那我想請教副主委就是我們目前對於這個商品開發的這個策略是怎麼樣那有沒有可能我們的商品因為品項太多造成我們自家農產互打的情形"},{"start":130.022,"end":145.919,"text":"謝委員 謝委員的關心稱陸委員所講的我們產品種類很多所以說一般都不大了解今天才會有來這邊做一個給大家做個介紹那我們產品的策略上一共分著三種一個是自產籠的產品"},{"start":147.941,"end":177.481,"text":"那另外一個是委營農民合作開發的商品還有一個是聯名的商品那這三種產品其實都我們都會經過一些產銷的驗證跟像SGS的驗證實際上的合格那也像台東農場剛剛就有特別介紹因為那邊其實有機種植友善土地是非常非常獎勵的而且成效也都非常的好"},{"start":178.221,"end":193.788,"text":"那我们各个农场呢其实有各个农场的特色像亲近农场呢它的特色就是以绵羊、马绣跟一些相关产品的开发"},{"start":194.648,"end":215.382,"text":"那福壽山農場呢其實他是屬於2300公尺以上的高山是所以說他的茶葉跟蘋果就是其他的農場沒有的那武陵農場他他的行局行局是完全是有機種植那他櫻花也好或是周邊的茶糖其實我們有把它區分開來那"},{"start":217.563,"end":235.075,"text":"嘉義嘉化農場跟台農農場是平地農場都是跟委員互相關的一些十大神農也好啦在地特色也好都結合地方的特色所以說基本上都有各個農場的在地特色化不會互相說只會一起買啦不會分別競價不會因為商品這個性質相"},{"start":244.702,"end":266.748,"text":"相同然後是不會有這種因為他的那個品品相的高低也中差差異性也都有拉出來好是謝委員那在這個農特產品的這個銷售通路上我們看到目前還是以這個農場實體的這個販販賣部還有我們各自在網路上的一個商城為主"},{"start":267.608,"end":283.733,"text":"那但是我們現在現有的這個通路在能見度和便利性上我想還是有需要再加強的部分尤其是這些農場大多不是位處在這個交通易達的一個地方那我想請教副主委我們對於這個都會地區的"},{"start":286.695,"end":297.772,"text":"這個受眾有沒有可能拓展其他的這個通路的這個規劃讓我們這些優質的農特產品能夠讓更多的民眾方便觸及方便購買"},{"start":299.133,"end":316.572,"text":"謝偉 其實這也是我們一直要開發的地方那我們除了網路平台然後結合新興百貨公司我們自己的產銷公司然後另外也在旅展中我們也都有展覽那最近呢我們也聯名跟故宮"},{"start":318.394,"end":335.976,"text":"百年的開發合作22個商品這些商品也陸續會在故宮的地方來販賣透過故宮的經銷來開發當然我們也會有跟一些學校像屏東科技大學"},{"start":336.977,"end":355.367,"text":"還有一些一些戰地的一些委員戶我們也都會會跟他合作然後用他用互相的平台來做一些一些一些經銷那如果再更細的話看看那個我們處長會不會再做一個一個一個說明跟委員報告"},{"start":356.888,"end":381.726,"text":"我們目前除了剛剛副主委報告的項目之外我們到各單位的活動我們都有去涉灘第二個是我們目前在跟國軍的福利總部在洽談未來會在他們平台上面去鋪路這個是我們目前在規劃的部分最近是在跟各農院在洽談是說後續會在各農院涉灘來做產品促銷以上做說明"},{"start":382.406,"end":406.848,"text":"好 那剛剛那個副主委也談到了我們跟故宮聯名的部分那我想就這個部分先請教我們副主委我們今年這個適逢故宮百週年的這個願慶那我們退伍會跟故宮跨界合作結合這個五大農場的相關特色產品透過品牌的這個授權推出22項的聯名商品"},{"start":408.369,"end":427.156,"text":"這樣的這個聯名確實也讓民眾耳目一新但是在今年十月份我們退伍會的這個夜報當中有提到預計從十月份開始會陸續推出聯名的商品但截至目前為止我剛剛大概看了一下我們現場的產品應該是沒有超過五項是跟故宮聯名的這個商品"},{"start":431.658,"end":438.392,"text":"那其他的商品呢是 請教一下我們副主委這個退伍會跟故宮聯名的這些商品"},{"start":439.264,"end":464.272,"text":"我們推出的情形是不是有delay還是說這次聯名的計畫有什麼問題那會持續多久我們這個聯名的計畫會持續多久那明年是否還會規劃其他的聯名活動謝謝委員關心因為目前我們沽公合作22項裡面目前只有一部分的商品是在販售的那其餘的商品要等到明年115年1月份"},{"start":466.773,"end":488.732,"text":"由故宮來審議通過之後才會陸續來上市聯名的商品除了在農場跟故宮之外其實我們也陸陸續續會再開發其他的商品也會跟其他的那些合作來做其他的聯名的商品來開發所以就是還沒有全部都推出預計22項所以現在就是陸續推出"},{"start":492.916,"end":515.797,"text":"是好那我們從這個報告當中也看到目前這個我們彰化台東清淨農場還有都有跟這些廠商來合作開發許多的商品現場看到的包括當然就是益生菌有機米還有綿羊油保養品等等相信都是受到民眾喜愛的商品那廠商會"},{"start":517.918,"end":536.729,"text":"這個大量的生產並且掛上我們的這個品牌消網市場那我想這部分我要請教副主委就是目前針對這些合作開發的商品我們是否有落實品質的這個管控避免發生因為廠商的疏失而對我們農場品牌造成打擊的情形"},{"start":537.469,"end":553.408,"text":"是我們其實每個商品的不管是開發商品還是聯名的商品我們都是通過第三方驗證的機構像剛剛農場又有報告就SGS的檢驗這完全符合食安法的規定好"},{"start":555.39,"end":571.345,"text":"那我想我們退伍會是一個政府機關我們的商品都是經過層層的把關那我想對於未來推出的商品"},{"start":572.166,"end":585.852,"text":"還是要由我們退伍會旗下五大農場甚至我們這些協力的廠商要做最高規格的品質管控才能夠繼續讓我們這個品牌在這個業界擦亮擦光"},{"start":587.333,"end":606.882,"text":"退伍會不管是開發或是行銷商品的這個腳步都有在加快當中那從廠商合作到故宮聯名甚至未來我們也可能跟其他的這個知名的這些機關或是廠商在做聯名也展現我們在推廣特色商品的一個決心"},{"start":607.702,"end":634.199,"text":"但是這個五大農場的這個品牌價值應該是在於這個優良的品質這個前提之下我想請我們退伍會我們相關單位的各位主管務必建立嚴格的這個品質監控的一個機制持續加強行銷推廣的一個工作不但讓我們退伍會優質的這些農特產品能夠受到國人更多的支持也要讓我們退伍會"},{"start":635.06,"end":640.856,"text":"農場的這個品牌更有這個辨識度是好 以上的質疑是 謝委員 謝委員 各位請回答"}]}},{"id":"166600","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166600","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d600946bbfe9425b12dedbd2ae366782b1ab335d4796f3eb88d6f56bf4e46f5f0685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:25:51 - 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你們的支持啦好謝謝委員的支持剛剛這個陳培毅委員的這個問題啊我再釐清一下這1月1號開始這個T 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台鐵的軌道的廠站這個很明顯就是一個站體那我們現在因為台灣非常多的轉運站"},{"start":257.952,"end":279.699,"text":"那有些轉運站的規模其實也夠大那進出的公路客運市區公車也都人數都很頻繁那對於這一些公共運輸的這個客運的轉運站這些場站看在哪一些法規裡頭也要進行相關的規範因為他也可能恐嚇"},{"start":280.706,"end":289.817,"text":"這一個公共運輸的場站客運的公路客運的場站市區公車的場站這些都有可能那我想這一塊也請交通部"},{"start":290.41,"end":317.347,"text":"在這個部分盡快來研議來進行相關的修法這樣可以嗎可以 我們謝謝委員的建議我想公共運輸我們會整體來看除了恐嚇或者是攻擊等等的看有沒有相關的法令還有缺乳的我們一併把它補上最後一個是台北車站下面有一個防災聯合防災中心我今天早上確認了以後次長你知道那個防災中心平場裡面有幾個人嗎"},{"start":320.543,"end":343.588,"text":"我知道他是長期開設裡面幾個人我告訴你好不好整個高鐵台鐵北捷桃捷地下街所有的廣場設了一個聯合防災中心平常進駐人數兩人一個主任一個承辦同仁"},{"start":345.663,"end":358.228,"text":"所以那個地方啊 每次在檢報的時候非常風光啊 螢幕一百多個一堆人去參觀過 對吧平常我現在比我現在講話 那裡就是兩個人那你說那兩個人是什麼單位的嗎市長不知道齁 我告訴你那兩個是台鐵北捷 高鐵 桃捷通通沒有人進駐"},{"start":375.182,"end":378.484,"text":"後來知道事情發生了 市長你知道他沒有什麼聯絡嗎那兩位同仁怎麼聯絡北捷 聯絡高鐵 聯絡陶捷嗎用耐啦 用耐群組啦 這樣怎麼會服啦市長 早一天再去看一下這些相關的"},{"start":394.724,"end":404.568,"text":"管理單位啊 包括警政單位 大家也去看一下改進一下啦 不然那個地方喔我今天聽到說兩個人在這裡進駐 我實在是卡不認了這以後怎麼聯合防災啦我委員報告一下 事件發生之後我們鐵道局大概第一個會去做有關跟相關的單位會去檢討剛才委員特別提到那個聯合應變中心他有一個應變的機制我知道啦 你們有分三級嘛"},{"start":421.536,"end":436.685,"text":"但是平常就是兩位嘛那升到二級的時候就變幾位嘛升到一級你們的防護團的團長就要進來總幹就要進來嘛但是這個齁其他單位好像跟他們沒有關係好像就是交通部的台鐵在管那裡"},{"start":437.285,"end":441.089,"text":"可是那整個車站不是只有台鐵啊好不好 時間的關係啊再請你們把那個防災中心啊一個聯合防災中心 裡面兩個人才會看的但是它那個收尾系統有Q當議員來的嗎不知道啦 就接進來啦問題是現場監控的人員太少啦這個我們一定來檢討好 謝謝人員要加強啦 謝謝啊"}]}},{"id":"166598","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166598","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60e683d17098af87a2edbd2ae366782b1ab335d4796f3eb88d0c085dc6951813ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:18:04 - 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謝謝主席有請交通部 謝謝請陳次"},{"start":19.11,"end":43.204,"text":"陳次早安我想直接跟你談關於拒絕排審總預算藍白現在正在做的事情喔那因為今天是交通部我們就來談一談交通建設有哪一些會停擺那當然這是我們辦公室的整理喔也想聽聽看你們的看法跟你們目前掌握到的數字我們來看一下如果總體預算明年度新增加支出的整個行政院有2900多億"},{"start":44.685,"end":73.405,"text":"那這2900多億呢有中央有地方但是我們看到如果連災害準備金都被卡住明年有任何的災情任何災損不管是像颱風或像花蓮光復香這種災難可能都會影響到人民生命安全我們來看下一張第一個TPAS人民很有感的對不對市長是好 你可不可以說一下就你們交通部蒐集到的輿情或者是人民的反應給你們哪些正向的回饋"},{"start":74.58,"end":98.226,"text":"我想TPAS的一個推動委員上頭有講到大概是每個月到目前為止大概不只是98.2萬到目前為止已經超過百萬了所以到目前為止超過百萬而且我們相關實施了以後也有做過相關民意調查也是獲得多數通勤組的支持"},{"start":98.686,"end":120.703,"text":"所以這樣的一個政策我們認為是有必要繼續延續的好 繼續延續 可是關鍵來囉 次長我們看到的資訊是這樣本來的計畫是112到114對不對也就是到了115它對你們來說就是新計畫是不是這樣說是 我們從115以後研擬了一個四年期的到118年的新計畫"},{"start":122.024,"end":139.109,"text":"而且他變成公務預算對不對所以如果在這個邏輯底下總預算沒有辦法排審那因為他又是新計劃115到118所以TPAS我可以這樣說嗎到明年的1月1號今天已經20幾號了到明年1月1號會發生什麼事情"},{"start":140.639,"end":161.892,"text":"我想因為他是屬於新興的一個計畫所以依照相關的一個預算的程序或規定可能明年大概這一筆的預算就無法通知好下一張我們來看一下這個時候呢很愛收割的蔣萬安很愛收割假裝講好話的侯友宜他們就開始說中央不出我們地方來買單如果他這樣說你怎麼辦"},{"start":165.519,"end":180.093,"text":"我想我們還是一樣因為TPAS是由地方政府來研擬出來的地方政府研擬可是你們中央有出錢吧我們中央有相關的一個經費所以如果中央政府的相關的預算無法通過的話我們大概就無法遲疑"},{"start":180.481,"end":204.399,"text":"好 我們來看到這個新聞蔣恩甚至說她曾經大力稱讚TPAS的成效她還說她要嚴領台北市政府自己的方案我就不知道她有沒有問過侯友宜有沒有問過謝國良北北基一日生活圈非常重要更有很多民眾直接在社群網站上表達他們的不滿也就是說如果總預算沒有辦法排審沒有辦法往下做TPAS就受到影響"},{"start":205.08,"end":217.269,"text":"那我就要問 所有這些各縣市的立委尤其在北北基 我們來看一下有誰王弘威 徐巧欣 賴世寶 羅志強 李彥秀他們如果擺爛 不審總預算 你蔣萬安要買單嗎接下來 洪孟凱 葉元之 張志倫 廖先祥 林德福 羅明才一樣繼續在立法院擺爛 侯友宜要買單嗎 再來"},{"start":228.658,"end":241.507,"text":"牛許廷 萬美玲 魯明哲 呂玉玲 圖全吉 邱若驊這些是桃園的立委請問桃園市長張善政 你要買單嗎最後基隆的立委 林佩祥"},{"start":242.817,"end":268.989,"text":"這些人口口聲聲說要服國立民光是一個上班族通勤的TPAS他們難道不知道這是新計畫嗎他們難道不知道這影響到已經超過百萬人嗎而且是每個月但是不省就是不省擺爛就是擺爛我真的不知道這些擺爛的藍白立委他們的縣市首長未來如果出來收割說他們要自行買單"},{"start":270.35,"end":299.518,"text":"然後一邊又讓傅坤祺在立法院對交通部咆哮叫交通部掏錢你們怎麼辦我想跟委員報告有關這個TPAS的一個政策剛才我已經特別說過這是一個部裡頭要執行的政策但是有關相關預算的一個動之或滋用還是要依照相關的程序所以在明年如果相關的立法院的預算沒有通過的話我想這部分我們交通部是無法支應的"},{"start":299.938,"end":328.497,"text":"沒關係我們的網民就說沒有Tpass我就改開車而已啊讓台北市整天大塞車蔣安安你聽到了嗎侯友宜你聽到了嗎張善政你們聽到了嗎謝國良你們聽到了嗎北北雞討一日生活圈以後就開始大塞車一日生活圈了來謝謝次長下一題一樣是跟次長有關再幫大家複習一次這些都是沒有辦法動之的預算的新增資本支出新增計劃不管是中央來自地方錢都會受到影響好來看下一張"},{"start":330.158,"end":353.044,"text":"第二個是跟交通部有關治水的相關預算對不對這些治水的預算呢像是今年零七二八中南部的好大雨還有丹納斯颱風都造成中南部非常大的災情跟損害台南的地方也說爭取經費來整治甚至呢民眾黨的張啟凱口口聲聲都說我們沒有在關心治水我們沒有在關心我們就來看一下"},{"start":353.644,"end":373.639,"text":"治水計畫受到影響台南高雄嘉義雲林我不知道這些縣市的立委是不是跟我們的縣民有仇還是跟地方政府有仇可是很奇怪啊這裡面就有藍白執政的縣市啊他們到底是跟誰有仇我就說他們其實是在跟這些縣民跟台灣人有仇來看下一張"},{"start":374.66,"end":381.462,"text":"包含即將宣布參選 我們看到記者會張啟凱說你要選嘉義我就不知道你要怎麼對嘉義鄉親交代還有口口聲聲說要選台南市長的謝龍介我也不知道他要怎麼面對這個治水預算 一樣是新計畫沒有辦法排審 沒有辦法使用 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有這些軍備武器很重要沒有錯但是你們未來如果一旦發生什麼樣的一個戰爭狀態第一線投入的就是這些軍人就是我們的這些軍人同胞"},{"start":195.162,"end":223.72,"text":"那這樣子的情況之下你們我們現在這些被忽略的軍人我們現在各單位都缺兵包括我們的邊線比都很低其實大家知道為什麼會這麼缺第一個薪水不夠嘛待遇不足嘛風險又高嘛對不對軍人的尊嚴不被尊重嘛是不是所以這些都不能夠成為加入國軍的一個動機啦所以為什麼我們立法院三讀通過了"},{"start":225.678,"end":250.588,"text":"這個均衡加薪的部分還有井消海巡的這些退伏金你們就是不編啊對不對 你們就是不編嘛這個部分他是有他的考量因為整個的一個包括所有公教包括軍警相關的一個平衡性所以人種呢他會對整個做一個整個均衡的考量那我們目前也請市縣中啦那按照請示的結合來"},{"start":252.473,"end":253.855,"text":"主席有請我們國防部徐副部長請徐副部長"},{"start":268.062,"end":287.814,"text":"國防預算屢創新高我們這個軍備案都可以隨便發發給這些經銷商 經銷皮鞋 運動鞋的公司還有一些裝修公司這些都看不出來說他們跟軍備軍購有什麼樣的關係"},{"start":291.636,"end":317.174,"text":"我剛剛提到的說我們的預算錢可以拿去印製一些不知道有待觀察的這些全民國防手冊也好或者是我們把我們的預算錢都付給了美國但是我們拿不到我們的飛機拿不到我們的軍備但是一旦發生兩岸發生什麼樣的情況一個戰爭的狀態沒有人希望發生但一旦發生在第一線"},{"start":318.496,"end":345.615,"text":"衝鋒陷陣的就是我們這些國軍那我們立法院單獨通過的這些軍人預算為什麼我們國防部不願意表態支持對不對 我知道你心裡可能不是這麼想但是你們剛剛在回答這個委員的的質詢上面都說跟行政院態度一樣但是事實上你們有沒有想過缺兵的問題"},{"start":347.322,"end":359.56,"text":"到底是怎麼樣要怎麼樣根本去解決軍人的待遇不足風險那麼高兵兇戰略再來軍人的尊嚴到底有沒有被尊重要從軍"},{"start":361.058,"end":387.349,"text":"要從軍你連這樣一個吸引他的動機都沒有沒有人希望說戰爭會發生啦但是一旦發生之後就是軍人在第一線報告委員可以說明一下嗎謝謝114年就是今年我們已經向行政院爭取五種加級包括志願役的加級戰鬥部隊的加級又分第一類型第二類型第一類型加的比較多網路戰加級 電偵加級"},{"start":389.69,"end":417.763,"text":"佔航管佳績所以我們國防部也已經有這個佳績尤其是基層的官兵佳績額度特別高譬如說如果一個上位他是第一類型的話他總共可以加到一萬二所以我們不是沒有加我跟你講我接到的電話啦我接到電話我們台中市一位民眾打電話過來他原來是在他是大學剛畢業一年他原來是在我們這四大會計師事務所其中一間上班那因為"},{"start":419.524,"end":441.986,"text":"這個事務所加班很晚然後待遇又不高所以他不如他的預期所以他的姐姐他姐姐是軍人他姐姐是軍人所以就告訴他說現在政府要幫國軍加薪要幫國軍加薪問他要不要考慮投入國軍那他思考過後覺得說確實如果按照軍人加薪之後這個待遇他是可以接受的那他"},{"start":443.26,"end":462.314,"text":"也願意加入成為一個軍人所以他就從會計師事務所辭職了但最近他打電話來告訴我們說為什麼為什麼行政院沒有履行承諾立法院三讀通過的法律案為什麼行政院可以不執行他以為他相信政府會給軍人好的待遇所以他準備加入但是"},{"start":463.713,"end":483.741,"text":"這樣子 欸 軍人加薪不是說只是不只是體恤國軍弟兄的辛勞也是要吸引更多專業的人才加入但是就像我剛剛說的這一位民眾打電話給我這一位民眾因為行政院不願意履行承諾不願意認同國軍弟兄的辛勞所以他也就"},{"start":486.192,"end":502.413,"text":"又回到他原來的崗位所以現在我們針對專業是有加期的我剛講過我們現在全面要提升啦所以我們三讀通過的法律案行政院不執行但是你們國防部怎麼可以不為我們國軍弟兄著想我有為國軍弟兄著想站穩你們的立場"},{"start":503.194,"end":530.259,"text":"我們絕對有 我們針對專業都有佳績對於戰鬥部隊 尤其是基層的戰鬥部隊我們特別加得多 特別多好 副部長國軍招募的口號是加入迷彩 人生精彩對不對對不對 是 是嘛但現在網友啊 他卻說什麼實際上他說 人生可以黑白啊但是不能夠迷彩啊如果要翻轉這種形象副部長 你有什麼具體的想法 如何翻轉"},{"start":532.515,"end":552.43,"text":"三度人才啊 對不對我說你們是加入迷彩人生精彩但是實際上被反諷就是說人生可以黑白但是不能迷彩就是說現在對於民眾對於原來有意願從軍的"},{"start":553.973,"end":573.194,"text":"的這些人他們對於我們這樣子國防部對於處理招募軍人以及對於軍人的一個保障這樣子的態度是這樣子所以他們整個現象就是說不願意從軍所以你現在招不到人就招不到人缺兵這事實要如何翻轉"},{"start":576.841,"end":605.05,"text":"當然還是在這個軍人待遇是沒有錯我們也做了 剛剛跟委員報告但是如果整體來看你還是要從軍公教整體的人事薪資結構來考量所以不是只有我們國防部的問題這整個政府的事情我跟你講其實你們回去勸一下左院長只要一邊列三讀通過的我們這些法案總算一定可以附會審查"},{"start":606.625,"end":625.856,"text":"總預算一定可以負為審查所以請你回去跟主委院長跟主委院長溝通 勸他請行政院把國軍弟兄放在心上好不好 可不可以國軍弟兄裡面永遠在我們的心上好 可以 那次長請回副部長請回 謝謝因為時間不夠了 那我想那個"},{"start":632.877,"end":660.414,"text":"我們財政部莊部長我想請教一個就是我們手機報稅的部分很簡單很短的時間不好意思你可不可以告訴我手機報稅是手機報稅明年一樣可以使用嘛對不對當然當然嘛對不對不會因為剛剛我們又提到了什麼TPAS不行了什麼樣這些今天全部因為總預算沒過所以這些全部都不能做了手機報稅可以嘛對不對"},{"start":661.074,"end":676.866,"text":"跟委員報告因為它是一個延續性的工作可以但它在執行的金額上是不能超過114年當然 這我們都知道另外一個再提一下就是說你們有提一個新的政策就是為了防詐所以推出ATM領錢要露臉的這個政策對不對"},{"start":678.214,"end":682.276,"text":"就是金管會以及警方內政部認為應該要這樣子做這個支持然後也可以對車手產生這個阻嚇的效果但是我要告訴你就是說因為民眾會擔心會擔心說這個造成隱私權的問題"},{"start":693.283,"end":707.973,"text":"也會怕說因為機械把他們臉部的部分記錄下來之後被政府記錄或者是拿去用在其他的地方就連超過300BPI的照片都能夠辨識出一些私人的這種隱私訊息所以部長因為我們的這個請問一下個資保護委員會成立了嗎"},{"start":713.75,"end":723.4,"text":"跟委員報告因為車手或詐團常常運用車手然後把臉部都遮起來去ATM去領取所以這個部分很重要另外現在ATM其實都有一個錄影的鏡頭在那邊並不因為我們未來對於遮眼臉的部分"},{"start":735.191,"end":755.398,"text":"我知道我支持打詐 堵詐 防詐但是就是說因為我們的各自保委委員會還沒有成立然後這個政策疑慮非常大甚至於根本搞不清楚在如何在打詐的同時保障民眾的隱私權這個部分不是只有金管會討論速發部的研擬這部分要更全面好不好"},{"start":759.365,"end":763.751,"text":"當然委員所顧慮的事情在我研議過程當中一定也會把它放進去來討論謝謝委員 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麻煩請副主委副主委請副主委好副主委今天我們"},{"start":13.812,"end":34.364,"text":"除了農場經營還有相關的這些產品行銷推廣精進作為以外我們還是很關切我們所有退府會相關的一些業務那我想請教一下退府會它所屬的八德等六所有彰化板橋八德雲林高雄跟馬蘭這些農家辦理"},{"start":36.946,"end":43.932,"text":"提升失智照顧量能長照望我園區中層計劃它原來的期程是109年到112年總經費原來是10億1000餘萬然後現在在111年底修正計劃以後延長到114年從112到14總經費也調增到16億8000餘萬"},{"start":62.228,"end":86.96,"text":"增加了大概6億多那本案在這個六所容家裡面除了彰化容家在111年已經完工以外現在到年底只剩下一週的時間我想請教因為十月份的業務報告裡面有特別說明雲林馬蘭及高雄容家可以如期在今年完工目前情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":91.124,"end":110.885,"text":"委員好 我是教養護署的副署長 由我來說明首先感謝委員關心 我們這個中城計畫當初在規劃的時候在初期因為預算編列不足 後來進行合訂經費都補足 目前高雄雲林還有馬蘭農家都已經完工"},{"start":112.006,"end":136.882,"text":"那個尤其是馬蘭跟雲林農開始收住了那收住的初期人員是比較少目前大概10床那高雄農家沒有關係現在已經開始有收住的狀況就這三個農家高雄在過年前會開始收住這三個農家現在確定完工的是彰化跟高雄嘛還有馬蘭是不是還有馬蘭"},{"start":140.004,"end":144.925,"text":"是那板橋跟八德榮家必須要延宕到明年的原因是什麼因為他的工程量體比較大那八德預計明年五月那個跟量體沒有關係啊你這個從109年就已經開始規劃所以他延宕的原因是什麼因為你經費也增加啦那目前延宕的原因比較具體的"},{"start":162.469,"end":186.794,"text":"當初招標之後 因為當初編列預算比較不足補足之後招標的期程就是五個農家同步開始走那其中那個板橋因為四層樓 八德是兩層樓所以說他量體比較大 所以他供期會比較晚大概半年到一年左右他什麼時候再招標出去我說板橋跟八德 後來他什麼時候招標的"},{"start":190.362,"end":207.975,"text":"他招標時間大概是113年下半年左右113是是是現在到115預計明年什麼時候可以完成巴德是明年5月板橋上明年7月這兩家他們增加多少預算"},{"start":210.745,"end":224.276,"text":"沒關係會後再提供相關的資料好了我現在還要再請教的是這六所農家因為其實我們在整個十字園區還有相關的這些他的"},{"start":225.393,"end":244.069,"text":"整個建案其實可能都已經有延宕的情形可是我們更關切的是這六所容家他長照望我園區完成以後作業量能也會增加他相關的護理人員跟照護員他這邊的情形跟招募情形現在目前可以做什麼樣的說明嗎"},{"start":246.494,"end":268.756,"text":"謝謝委員對長期對我們護理人力還有照顧人力的關心那這三所農家完工之後在115年會增加240床的實質床位那我們的護理人力是長期在國內各領域都是比較吃緊我們這幾年不斷的加薪在115年之後我們會改成約用人力那每一個"},{"start":269.917,"end":285.233,"text":"現在的委外都可以轉為這個 約用的造福員薪資大概會調升大概五六千塊那目前呢 我們常態性的能力大概兩百五十個委外造福員都已經全數轉為約用能力在一百一十五年一月一號會上線"},{"start":286.343,"end":287.905,"text":"可是我們現在有看到一個問題就是我們本來合訂的338元的護理人員還有像退輔會近年在公務預算來看我們主要照護人力是照服員跟護理人員我們的需求是逐年增加"},{"start":305.964,"end":308.585,"text":"可是我們的造福人力從109年到114年度增幅是19.2可是我們人力缺口數是從259人擴大到374人他的缺口高達44%"},{"start":325.185,"end":329.512,"text":"你的人力需求增加19.2%可是你的缺口數卻高達44%其實這個你的拉鋸越大我們現在目前我們是用委外的那我們委外現在缺員的狀況為什麼會發生"},{"start":341.109,"end":357.413,"text":"因為你委外照顧不管是護理師還是照顧員他都有相關的配比規定我們容家又不能關床我們不像一般的醫療院所不像其他的單位私人的單位所以你在為什麼我們委外還有缺員這樣的狀況你都已經標出去了他可以缺員嗎不用照顧"},{"start":363.22,"end":379.2,"text":"我們標出去委外造福源標出去之後那個廠家他當然一定會廠商已經會積極來招募了那原則上他招募不足的時候我們會用加班來補足我們需要的人力那我們也會按約來計罰那這是一個互相的一個"},{"start":379.801,"end":392.976,"text":"他計法的條件是什麼計法如果說譬如說他沒有到一定的比例他提供我的人力沒有到八成或八成五我就開始計法那因為我們也知道廠商在招募這些委外人力的不容易啦所以我們會互相來體諒當他來"},{"start":395.138,"end":416.552,"text":"我們招標的時候他就已經知道我們的要求你不能去設想他招標不易那你以後不是更嚴重你現在的床位你現在的需求一直在增加你又有實質園區又有安寧未來還有其他的要照顧的你的農家的病床數就是這麼高你現在委外都已經缺員那以後怎麼辦你自行約用的時候怎麼辦不用照顧"},{"start":420.274,"end":438.804,"text":"或者本來一個人要照顧兩個或三個那以後要照顧五個六個是這樣嗎跟委員報告所以像我們護理的核心人力我們把它改回約用那希望他能夠穩定那委外照服員呢我們會持續提升他的薪水這兩年我們的薪資齁大概都提升兩千到三千提供兩次那目前的話"},{"start":440.365,"end":447.508,"text":"我們會持續來關注這個市場我們也謝謝委員的關心跟指導我們會朝這方面努力這不是我們用關心因為你明年就已經碰到了你明年馬上就要做而且很多你像現在是要自行約用可能他這個狀況會更加的嚴重你的應變計畫現在就已經要出來了因為很多人可能在2月明年過年嘛"},{"start":463.194,"end":464.859,"text":"那你在1月就大家可以領完那個年終獎金以後大概這個狀況就會發生了你的應變計畫是什麼"},{"start":473.623,"end":486.813,"text":"跟委員說明一般我們在你把提供書面好了因為你現在剛剛提到的就是說你要增加他的薪資薪資要提高到多少或者你要用什麼樣你不可能都用加班啊所有的你的薪資又比外面的少然後現在委外你都已經達不到這樣的標準你以後說要用加班的哇那更離譜因為他本身你在缺員的狀況之下他已經要照顧很多人那不是加班的問題"},{"start":499.142,"end":504.126,"text":"那不是量的問題而是你一次要照顧的人數就這麼多他24小時就是有這麼多人他就是需要被照顧那你怎麼有辦法說用加班去解決這樣的問題那是不對的所以我們希望可以提書面資料要有具體的做法我們希望有具體的做法應該要怎麼樣去改善這樣因為你在你有相關的這些社會責任"},{"start":522.702,"end":547.927,"text":"因為我們看到現在你16個容家只有4個滿編有12個都是缺員的狀況那未來會更加嚴重你像我們是委外的他照服員人數不足你說依照罰則老實說那個罰則可能對廠商罰的不太可能對他不太有辦法罰的到吧現在有罰過嗎有 有罰罰多少那個詳細的數字我們在提供有些會罰到幾十萬那我們"},{"start":550.99,"end":574.516,"text":"也會要求廠商把這個人用加班方式來補足廠商成本也會增加其實我們看如果說廠商的用加班的方式對我們來說我們要的並不是這樣所以你在列有很多相關的一些合約或者這些罰則我覺得可能都有很大的問題這個部分在書面資料也希望一併可以提供好不好"},{"start":575.456,"end":579.999,"text":"那另外就是我們現在的這個榮民榮券基金會我們最早其實他主要成立的是由王顧的榮民他的遺產去捐助設置的他主要目的跟業務是針對王顧榮民大陸地區繼承人申請遺產之核發第二個是榮民重大災害救助第三是侵含榮民子女教育"},{"start":601.214,"end":607.176,"text":"教育獎助學金第四個是榮民榮券福利跟服務事項這個可能主要會用到的大概現在比較多的可能是重大災害救助跟一般的福利服務事項我們現在想要請教的因為現在我們教育部其實為了要拉高就是要把拉平我們公司立學校所以他的獎助學金一學期大概都學雜費不好意思"},{"start":627.503,"end":645.388,"text":"主席我們用一點點時間因為他大概有一萬七千五百塊一學期所以兩個學期其實他大概加起來甚至就比我們的這個獎助學金還要高所以其實我們看到我們所有相關的這個資料111年還有4855個人申請到113年只剩他的那個實力學校只剩下一個"},{"start":655.291,"end":657.474,"text":"只剩下一個申請原來實地學校有2600多個啦那你到113年只剩下一個那今年0因為你17500跟10000當然大家去領17500啊可是我們當初設置這個墓地主要是對於清寒"},{"start":672.15,"end":675.991,"text":"因為教育部給的是一致性的就所有的學生都有可是我們主要這個成立的目的而且是人家的遺產捐出來設置的我們可以用什麼樣變通的方式因為你現在可能有通膨有各方面我們可不可以用其他的營養金或者什麼其他的書籍的補助可以讓我們的榮民榮眷可以有這樣子的一個尊榮感因為"},{"start":697.279,"end":702.921,"text":"他想要學習可是我們不要說這個錢通通沒有用你們現在都拿來拍微電影啊微電影以後我們在這裡強烈建議以後用公務預算不要再用這個基金因為這個基金的這個數額其實並不多我們希望他就是真正落實照顧我們農民融券尤其在他生活產生重大變故或者像這些學生的一個照顧這樣子這個可不可以立即做修正因為這只要我們董事會決定就好了"},{"start":727.371,"end":748.36,"text":"來 請回答我們請秘書長來回答來 齋藥回答委員好非常感謝您關注我們照顧我們的榮民眷人跟子女事實上就是說因應沒有錯是因應政府的公私利拉基金的配套方案它是每年 每學年3萬5我們是2萬實際上是中間的確是有落差的而且它大於我們 所以"},{"start":748.96,"end":761.901,"text":"私立來申請我們的人數減少那我們也曾經去考慮過如果說我們也跟政府一樣調到三萬五算是優於來維持這些一些發放但從評估下來他一年的預算"},{"start":763.103,"end":766.725,"text":"要9000萬我剛剛有建議就是說你政府已經有這樣子的一個補助項目你可以另外因為我們這個只給親韓的學生所以你是不是可以另外給親韓的學生你比如說510000他可能用不同的名目因為這個只要你們通過就可以了你不要把那些錢拿來用在別的地方這個可以立即做一些修正跟討論嗎"},{"start":787.536,"end":802.384,"text":"好 幫委員我們按照委員的指導我們下去研究看看再跟您回報好了回去研議啦對啊 因為我們希望他的錢真的落實可以照顧到他是因為教育部是所有的學生都可以可是你變成我們所有的榮民現在是領耶 今年沒有人領耶"},{"start":803.144,"end":811.334,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望其實可以去落實到因為我們像我們基金會111年到115年度辦理的這個菁英圓夢計畫他國外的不管是到高中大學碩士博士我們都有補助可是我們國內的也沒有這個也一併去考量好不好就是大家有心學習你基金要用在對的地方謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166641","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166641","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d600fe398e5cb8d9315edbd2ae366782b1ad81c25c0c566a88a9aab6c45daf424f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"10:57:42 - 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感謝教委那我們是不是有請我們交通部陳次長請交通部陳次長"},{"start":21.458,"end":26.742,"text":"市長用這個機會跟你討論一下現在就是交通部有一個北迴之巔的計畫那這個計畫當然就是針對北迴歸線北迴歸線整個觀光的一個軸帶"},{"start":39.87,"end":54.775,"text":"那事實上以這個觀光族代來說阿里山就是在我們北回歸線有經過的地方所以未來整個北回之間的一個觀光的一個計畫阿館處會扮演一個很重要的角色你也知道說這次丹納斯颱風再來0728事實上是讓整個大阿里山區的觀光"},{"start":61.397,"end":87.714,"text":"收到很大的一個影響因為那個時候我們電鎖路變成大家最怕土石流就比較不要去鎖孤就是正好讓整個山區的觀光是受挫的那也感謝啦後來阿館處有辦了一個省旅行的計畫很辛苦的帶我們新港鳳天宮的媽祖坐著我們阿里山的小火車然後讓他到了阿里山然後在昨天晚上 前天晚上"},{"start":88.194,"end":109.42,"text":"正式結束了這個活動 那也讓整個山區因為媽祖稿 整個山區非常的熱鬧那我要跟次長講的就是說因為接下來阿管住有一個很重要的使命因為我們知道林鐵處 農業部林鐵處他會在他的阿里山小火車 他要開發區間車"},{"start":111.48,"end":131.605,"text":"所以這個驅遷車是說要阿里山火車不一定要為自己的伴忙坐去阿里山因為那些車次就比較少驅遷車有可能為12站或是為10站一車就可以到阿里山的本紀郵站這樣的話比較頻繁的跑可以創造說大阿里山區點對點的一個旅遊"},{"start":133.125,"end":145.436,"text":"所以我要跟市長說就是說在發展這樣的一個區間車的時候阿館阿館處應該要積極的配合把這些區間車然後他所帶來的一個效益阿館處應該把它發揮到最大"},{"start":146.796,"end":162.407,"text":"這個沒有問題吧是 我想沒有問題我想委員關切的我們會轉達給阿管處請他積極的配合這個林鐵來做相關的一個行銷把它包裝起來讓更多人使用這個曲線車然後在阿里山沿線做相關的觀光旅遊好"},{"start":162.967,"end":182.793,"text":"那接下來就是說因為北回支店嘛一百億要推動觀光喔一百億喔 四年來執行那我覺得阿館處現在就是有一個使命就是說整個大阿里山區的一個觀光我覺得告示牌的部分就是說那些跟大家介紹的部分 事實上"},{"start":183.553,"end":205.367,"text":"外國語言不足 外國語言不足所以這也要大家關注講一下為了要拓展國際的觀光路線尤其現在本紀是很多國外的觀光客背包客會來本紀但是他來的時候是基本上他們看到的一些告示還是存在中文 少少的英文"},{"start":206.167,"end":218.787,"text":"那我認為 如果大阿里山區要來發展這個國際觀光 要開拓國際觀光的話至少要仿造日本嘛 四國語言哪四國 中文 英文 日文 韓文"},{"start":220.461,"end":240.811,"text":"至少這四國語言的一個告示這是要具備的 好不好好 再來喔 既然我剛才有說嘛大阿里山區的北圍之巔這100億事實上我們在這一次我看到啦嘉義的部分就只放在阿館處可是嘉義大阿里山區要有大坡 10萬水庫喔10萬水庫捏 還有像中坡"},{"start":244.253,"end":251.633,"text":"這叫做希拉雅風景管理處但是希拉雅風景管理處在北迴之巔計畫看起來都放在台南"},{"start":253.338,"end":277.841,"text":"抓這部分沒有放在街上喔我們知道整個征溫水庫這個大埔的一個觀光也是很重要啊那都是大理山窟啊都是北回歸線直接經過的地方所以事實上我要跟次長說啦斯拉雅這個風景管理處還是要在北回之巔裡面對於推廣中埔大埔的觀光還是要肩負它的一個任務在"},{"start":279.362,"end":296.816,"text":"縱使在北肥之間的計畫裡面現在看起來已經沒有在裡面那至少在本預算的部分我也希望交通部要支持他們尤其中埔現在正在做溫泉的開發那溫泉的開發現在也已經跟中友來溝通由中友來協助做專探基本上"},{"start":297.737,"end":314.126,"text":"目前看起來都非常的樂觀那如果這一個中埔的溫泉開發完成哇 這不得了耶這會是台灣距離市區最近的一個溫泉的風景區因為我們現在目標的分水車去嘉義市我來說15分鐘以內會夠"},{"start":319.798,"end":328.37,"text":"去嘉義市 所以以後嘉義市的人要週末要泡一下溫泉以後嘉義市出發到中坡15分鐘以來九這是真的有夠好的地方所以這部分還是請市長"},{"start":335.038,"end":360.878,"text":"今天齁 但是拜託兩件事一個阿館處 一個斯拉雅風景管理處這兩個寶肥 你都要給交代不管他有沒有在北回之巔的計畫裡面我們都希望交通部這邊好好的來推廣我們整個大阿里山區的一個觀光 好不好好 我要問一件報告我的北回之巔當然就是在預算裡頭如果沒有的話其實他們也有相關的公務預算或基金啦我會來交代他們要一併來做考量"},{"start":364.491,"end":380.7,"text":"好 所以市長這要記得喔 要給我們大力推動一下好不好 是是是整個現在觀光 我們整個阿里山湖觀光現在回來了所以現在高中部 這記得喔這現在你們都錄了啦 水有好過的啦這有好過的建設就是快拚快拚快做是是是 好 謝謝好 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至少有附委今年是連附委都還沒有附委我看這個在野黨大概也不會讓他附委審查了"},{"start":60.299,"end":86.058,"text":"所以我剛剛聽到我們林思明召委在幫他的選區來爭取這個地區訓練預算我心裡的感觸蠻多的啦我們委員都希望能夠在中央爭取預算回到我們自己的選區但是如果連中央政府的總預算都沒辦法通過的話那怎麼可能說我在中央在擋預算然後在地方在爭取預算嘛這是矛盾的嘛那剛剛教育部是講得很含蓄"},{"start":88.282,"end":112.932,"text":"這個在新竹市的部分的話新竹市新竹縣苗栗縣我們還特別針對了竹竹苗這個高級就是高級中等學校校舍補助有3億耶這是新的計畫嘛對不對市長市長是是是這新的計畫啊新的計畫你要大聲說出來新的計畫3億元就受阻啦這就是在竹竹苗啊是對不對"},{"start":115.086,"end":142.659,"text":"今天讓各個部會來跟全民來講到底你們這些總預算新興的計畫還有包含延續計畫裡面的新增計畫裡面有沒有通過的問題在哪裡會影響有多少人特地安排了這一個專報就是要讓你們講出來那像那個市長你也沒有講出來啊你租住苗就是有3億元耶新增的計畫你就是沒辦法處理啊對不對"},{"start":144.219,"end":152.802,"text":"剛剛也特別跟林委員報告說新竹市1.5億新竹縣1.2億苗栗縣0.3億影響了580間新建教室會受到影響影響到2000名的學生權益這你們要大聲說出來啊完全沒有說出來那請問一下現在地方的這個總預算是不是應該都已經審查完均了"},{"start":172.223,"end":188.175,"text":"大部分啊那如果審查的話一定是有中央補助的預算嘛對不對那如果中央補助的預算中央現在總預算沒辦法過那對於地方的這個總預算影響會有多大"},{"start":190.126,"end":217.567,"text":"補助地方的部分有507億元左右那這個部分受到影響就是在新興計畫的部分那這個部分他就會沒有辦法動之那他地方比較遭遇首先遭遇到的大概就是年關的一個調度那年關的調度就需要我們中央來對他來做一個協助那這個協助的部分我們也是希望能夠大院能夠趕快審查預算我們也盡量來協助地方來解決"},{"start":217.887,"end":226.888,"text":"所以我們補助地方的507億那這個地方預算他們搞不好已經通過啦就在等中央總預算通過嘛"},{"start":227.922,"end":251.71,"text":"她這個部分他們是列在稅入啦稅入的部分這樣子那如果對啊那如果沒有補助的話稅入就沒有沒有稅入的話怎麼有稅數咧因為我們會影響到了就是說我們在一般性補助裡面有一個321億對地方補助的差額補助那就是比較財力比較不好的一個縣市的一個補助這個部分會影響比較大這321億也沒有啊對也沒有嘛"},{"start":253.536,"end":280.631,"text":"所以還有507億是直接補助的地方還有中央自辦地方受益的還有130億對所以總共有637億是然後呢 這個經常性的這個費用但是我們是比114年新增加的部分1805億是所以有含地方的嘛這個部分也有含地方但這個部分因為拆解比較困難所以這個部分我們沒有目前沒有拆解出來這樣子"},{"start":281.667,"end":311.036,"text":"好 我再請教一下交通部剛剛有提到這個T-passT-pass在我們這個新北 雙北這個北北桃機其實使用的人數高達52.8萬我們補助的金額是高達37億就是光是這個北北機桃全部啦 全國的話是補助地方59億嘛那補助地方如果說這個總預算沒有通過的話給地方的補助就沒有了嘛"},{"start":311.809,"end":333.528,"text":"包委員 沒有沒有那沒有如果說地方要維持這個TPAS的話他們自己要付錢目前如果看起來是這樣因為中央要錢沒有辦法到位對啊 因為我們是這個補助這等於是補助59億給地方嘛那下次他們要跟這個中央要補助是哪個時候"},{"start":335.586,"end":362.937,"text":"如果說明年剛講一開始當然就明年1月1號開始他就會有影響整個的影響會有啊所以如果說要維持TPAS能夠繼續運作的話地方政府要自己出錢可以這麼說我們沒有錢給補助了嘛目前沒有辦法錢給他好 那個請運動部運動部是新興的部會啦這唯一新興的部會當然這個受到影響也是蠻大的那你們基本上是從體育署延續過來的"},{"start":365.08,"end":379.538,"text":"那你們預算受到影響有38.8億那其中有30億是說補助地方政府辦理興建運動場館還有場地設施是不是包圍原室那這個大概是哪些設施勒"},{"start":380.539,"end":409.053,"text":"包委員他主要是在全民運動推廣所需要一些設施還有一些專項的訓練場地檢疫運動場館等等其實是不少對於因為我們這次主要的預算所以地方都報上來了嗎地方是有報上來地方有報上來了那新北有沒有報新北有報新北有報新北報了什麼包委員那個整個清單我這邊目前好你再給我所以也30億沒辦法補助到地方去了對"},{"start":411.229,"end":431.504,"text":"那我再問一下這個勞動部跟衛福部我們有一個政策生育幾戶差額補助都給他提到10萬塊那就是說因為這個我們對象比如說勞保 國保 公教人員 農保跟軍人這個我們本來要撥補41.2億"},{"start":437.374,"end":464.443,"text":"給這些對象這些對象大概有超過12萬人好 那請問一下這個不是每個對象都可以拿到10萬塊比如說勞保生育給付平均是7萬塊所以如果這個10萬塊沒有過就少了3萬塊所以他明年一樣領7萬塊那影響多少人 影響10.2萬人那國保的部分"},{"start":466.195,"end":467.516,"text":"所以他大概少領了6.1萬嗎主要這邊影響最多"},{"start":487.506,"end":497.12,"text":"對啊 如果這10萬塊補下去的話我們的勞保的話可以多拿3萬平均來講啦我們的國保的話可以多拿6.1萬"},{"start":498.444,"end":517.279,"text":"主要就是希望說願意生育的女性她都能夠齊一的拿到這樣子10萬那沒有這10萬塊就沒有這些補助了嘛還是維持原來的國保就維持原來的那主卸處知道嗎那公教人員咧知不知道這個數字會少領著多少跟10萬塊的差額農保 軍人有這個數字嗎"},{"start":520.475,"end":540.709,"text":"沒有這個數字等一下會後再提供給我就是說我們要補到10萬塊至少我手邊資料就是說勞保就少了3萬國保就少了6.1萬那這個是多少家庭他們在期待的就是說至少說今年過後我如果有生小孩的話我至少都可以領到這些的補助"},{"start":542.046,"end":559.867,"text":"那現在沒有這些沒有這些預算啊沒有這些預算的話那都受到影響啊然後包含這一個我們也有補助這個地方政府我自己新北市也有設立這一個公用公托嘛對這些也都受到影響所以報告委員我們這邊其實在少子化少子女化對策計畫2.0我們要做那個"},{"start":562.21,"end":586.056,"text":"公共化的托育設施這邊我們編了13億明年度那這個部分如果沒有新興計畫沒有過的話這13億沒有辦法下去那地方上面大家我想我們對於生育這邊除了剛剛講到的補助之外最重要的事情就是公托公幼公托這一塊那公托這一塊我知道我想委員也很關心大家都非常關心那大家也很需求這一塊的補助如果沒有新興計畫沒有過的話我們這塊補助沒有辦法出來那所以地方政府就自己出"},{"start":586.977,"end":611.4,"text":"如果地方政府那就會是地方政府的財力跟地方政府的預算的狀況那沒辦法出這個公幼公托大家新手爸媽都很期待說能夠增加公幼公托的名額我看這個大概這個機會也沒有了所以其實前面有委員提到說我們在喊窮喊可憐不是我們窮跟可憐是國家明明有錢但是我們應該要讓民眾人民能夠得到他需求的滿足而且我們照顧的是所有我們需要照顧的人民"},{"start":612.14,"end":633.356,"text":"可憐的是人民啊官員照臉薪水可憐是人民你財政有經費也有但是你撥不出去那請問一下這個主席總署新北市受到的這一個補助總共有多少會受到影響算了一下應該有15億啦"},{"start":636.527,"end":641.151,"text":"15億包含這個T-PASS10.26排水整治3.53還有無人載具0.57這些等等這個T-PASS影響到10億運動這個品牌賽事5000萬然後呢 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林部長請王執行秘書跟張主任王執行 張主任請委員好部長好 大家好皮還沒有繃緊我不是說你啦"},{"start":29.281,"end":47.622,"text":"我說團隊屁還沒有崩盡這算喔還加沒案我想部長知道其他的各位長官本席在這裡我講過只要抒發部來我就只問詐騙謝謝主席今天特別排社群平台的這個打詐"},{"start":49.986,"end":78.136,"text":"打詐是要國家隊每天把林部長罵到臭頭沒有啦 也沒辦法也沒辦法啦 還好啦一定要是一個團隊那本席的做法很簡單啦小紅書不管他來自哪裡啦他叫什麼小白書小綠書都一樣只要他在社群平台是國人喜歡用國人有一定比例在使用的"},{"start":79.468,"end":107.154,"text":"你們就要一致性的處理啦譬如說沒落地的你們應該直接法規規定嘛這涉及到我國家都用國家打炸打炸隊要來處理的為什麼我們不能夠去規定我在處理打炸我在處理犯罪偵查呢那國家的態度在法規上我講過很多遍你需要立法院立法的我們一定支持哪一個立委敢不支持打炸"},{"start":108.817,"end":136.33,"text":"哪一個政黨不支持打仗第二個你們不需要立法院立法你們透過你們的行政手段行政命令可以處理的要有一個整體性不能讓委員在這裡問你們還答得讓大家覺得好像你們自己也搞不清楚誰要處理什麼所以很簡單嘛第一個沒有落地的已讀不回的我就規定你什麼叫已讀不回"},{"start":138.177,"end":160.205,"text":"你 你在包庇詐騙我都還要求你知道說我現在正在處理你不是 但我們做一個法治國家程序就是要講清楚程序就是這樣 譬如說我就是透過email送達我就是透過什麼樣的方式你留的什麼位置我幫你送達你接不接"},{"start":162.332,"end":181.37,"text":"我們國人涉及到法院通知他依照法院的程序把它做完了然後你去法院說啊 抱歉我出國沒收到你覺得這個理由可以嗎也不行嘛因為我們程序還是照這樣在走嘛是不是這樣子這個跟委員報告一下"},{"start":182.096,"end":211.524,"text":"有關於小紅書的部分 因為他為什麼會這次會針對這部分 因為其實比如說像剛剛委員講Telegram其實Telegram他比較接近通訊軟體 他的占部範圍通常都是一對一的部分 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部長沒有落地的有多少家社群平台沒有落地"},{"start":296.86,"end":311.085,"text":"因為落地並不是一個精準的法律問題所以分成兩個方面來講第一個就是他在台灣有沒有設立子公司或分公司這是一種所謂的落地另外一種是設立法律代表那依照我們現在的炸房條例其實講的兩者都沒有的有多少家"},{"start":313.254,"end":341.266,"text":"太多了啦這個因為全世界我現在講說我們一定程度比例它叫做社群平台是這樣的社群平台有多少家在你們任職場不管叫大中小是因為我們就是依照我們納管那我們現在納管有四家公司七個平台那四家公司七個平台他們在台灣都是設立法律代表那我們要求他他才會來設立法律代表那巧鴻書有沒有設立法律代表沒有對嘛所以我的意思就是你們要把"},{"start":342.247,"end":345.892,"text":"要件都把它說清楚嘛你們到底在規範人家什麼"},{"start":347.557,"end":373.375,"text":"你列管的假設你列管叫做不管他大中小你們列管叫20家好了在20家裡面只要被你列管他一定要有什麼樣的程序譬如說他一定要有法律代表他一定要有子公司你們去把規定規定好讓所有在台灣經商不管他哪一國人來台灣要做生意要做網路的生意社群平台的生意他清楚知道我們的要件是什麼嘛"},{"start":374.208,"end":397.702,"text":"那你不符合要件我就處理你嘛因為我在打詐你還不配合我就處理你我就在打詐裡面就相關組就把它規定好嘛是部長你現在懂我的意思嗎因為我們現在造訪條例第27條就是規定我們納管然後第29條就是規定納管以後他必須設立法律代表這在我們造訪條例裡面其實都有清楚的規定所以很簡單嘛解釋小紅書就是他沒有"},{"start":398.382,"end":418.069,"text":"他被納管然後他沒有設立任何在台灣連法律代表都沒有因為他現在還達不到我們納管的標準所以目前小宏都不在我們要納管的所以你要清楚知道說那你要不要納管他嘛那你不納管你的要件是什麼你的對象是誰啦"},{"start":418.829,"end":435.062,"text":"是 跟委員說明一下因為第27條到造訪條例27條到33條都是規範說我們數位發展部要如何去納管這些網路廣告平台但是這次內政部發出的這個文它是依照第42條並不是依照第27條到33條那依照第27條它的要件是什麼"},{"start":439.686,"end":462.644,"text":"請副署長說明報告委員127條我們在這個113年的9月的時候有做了一個公佈就是說什麼樣叫做達到一定規模的標準它有兩個要件第一個要件就是說如果經過165這邊來通報的高風險然後同時呢對 那小紅書符不符合因為我們沒有接到這個部分的通報然後另外一個條件是那小紅書你們依照第幾條"},{"start":464.611,"end":467.3,"text":"小紅書內政部依照第42條裡面的要件是什麼"},{"start":475.65,"end":497.905,"text":"報告委員我們的要件基本上就是為了要及時防治讓人民在持續去接觸這個詐欺網站所以我們要針對他的要件就是說因為他為了要防治詐欺那怕這網站持續在那邊讓很多人持續去接觸之後遭到受害那因為他本身就是規範在這一個只要是沒有納管的平台業者我們都會想方設法去用這條來去做處理"},{"start":500.302,"end":514.909,"text":"對那你為什麼不把明確的達到一個什麼標準就符合42條他的標準就是委員就是前面講27條他沒到達他的獨立訪客數會到達我國人口的百分之五對他未到達放到未到達的37未到達的42對不對"},{"start":519.446,"end":542.413,"text":"不是不是基本上那個27條到這個有兩條路就是我們作為那個做出處置一個是說從27條到33條就書發部走一條路但是第41條裡面有42條裡面有規定就是說那個司法警察機關可以在緊急狀緊急案件的時候直接要求那個停止血清或限制"},{"start":543.613,"end":559.671,"text":"接取 所以這是兩條路 那我們剛才委員問我們這邊的我們是那個訴發部走的這一條路 那另外一條路從42條這個就是因為內政部警政署也是屬於司法警察機關的那個一部分所以他們用42條路好 那根據42條你們要怎麼通知他"},{"start":563.002,"end":586.147,"text":"邦委員因為他本身就是在我們台灣沒有法律代表所以我們在通知就無法通知那之前的部分在打壓中心這邊其實就是有先針對這個部分先行文去透過海基會帶轉所以我就跟你們講為什麼要這樣子為什麼不把42條弄明白為什麼不明確告訴你在符合4條我的要件就是什麼"},{"start":587.725,"end":605.667,"text":"你不能等詐欺的人他都一直不接受通知那你要怎麼辦繼續被罵做一個民主法治的國家就是我很清楚告訴你你來我這裡我的法律對你要求的要件是什麼清清楚楚明明白白"},{"start":606.809,"end":634.606,"text":"所以你用一個緊急一下去處理我很贊成我講過嘛打炸我是沒有在管這個的啦我就是堅持我覺得人民在打炸上受害很嚴重所以你們要去處理是但是你們為什麼不把你怎麼知道未來還有一個有沒有可能小白書小綠書小藍書所以報告委員所以就是剛剛書發部有講說這個還有其他沒有納管的很多因為他未來網路世界會增加是啦那你為什麼不達到一個比例你就進入納管為什麼"},{"start":636.425,"end":646.228,"text":"所以比例是定在那個百分之五啊對 那為什麼你覺得小紅書都已經很嚴重了他雖然會打百分之三很嚴重你為什麼不把標準往下調 為什麼所以我們事實上其實是用一個概括性的就是說針對無法納管的就概括性的一個那你們就是很簡單 你的無法納管的你們又自己用很緊急的狀況去處理然後緊急的狀況去處理 程序是什麼又不清楚"},{"start":666.584,"end":688.671,"text":"你現在懂我在講什麼嗎 我的意思是說 你們覺得很重要要處理了你們覺得5%的規範根本就遏制不了打炸那你們就應該調啊 為什麼不把法律完備呢讓社會質疑呢 讓很多委員同仁在這裡不斷的挑戰你們呢"},{"start":690.469,"end":716.695,"text":"本席就已經講過嘛 打詐沒有分藍綠嘛打詐也沒有分國籍 你在我中華民國在這裡你作為打詐集團的幫兇 作為他們的工具讓台灣人受害 我就是要處理你嘛是 謝委員 我們回去會做研究這個部分你們應該趕快把要件說清楚 我中華民國的法令就是如此我對打詐就是身惡痛絕 這是台灣人最痛恨的事情"},{"start":718.07,"end":741.297,"text":"為什麼這麼痛恨的事情你們不把他當一回事 尬給他 把他頂給清除你要來我台灣做生意 我就是這樣要求你我讓你沒有模糊空間啊是誰會反對嗎 台灣人現在對你們要打詐嚴格大家是怎樣 社會輿論覺得不行 大家應該容忍打詐沒有嘛 大家很希望你拿出辦法來嘛"},{"start":743.081,"end":770.304,"text":"行政院也成立了是 詐欺的 打詐的警政署也有打詐的NCC也在打詐 各部會都在打詐連本席啊 說那個WBC的票啊我們去檢舉有人啊 在網路上賣那個根本就是假的欸 我看我們那個平台也轉到運動部欸請運動部查證這個平台是不是假的 是不是詐騙所以運動部也要打詐欸"},{"start":771.499,"end":789.639,"text":"所以叫國家對嘛國家在打詐都已經用國家力量在處理囉為什麼在法規的明確跟程序上還要在那邊緊急來緊急去呢我管你幾% 5% 5%沒辦法處理那些3%的我就降為3% 為什麼不能降為3%"},{"start":792.101,"end":819.731,"text":"3%再不行2%很嚴重都發生在這2%我就降了2%然後我就告訴你來我這裡做生意只要你這裡有幾%我就告訴你要件是什麼你已讀不回你在這裡沒有法律的代理人我就直接處理你甚至我規定你一定要有代理人這個就是我們要國家要做打詐我們要有辦法要嚴厲的手段嘛為什麼不行呢為什麼不做呢"},{"start":822.139,"end":850.023,"text":"懂了吧 懂 謝委員 本是今天要講這個 是是 家無安啦 要再創 這樣不通啦是 謝委員 台灣人民不能接受我們每天隨機殺人 人民很恐慌啊但是隨機殺人的機率跟打炸 他幾乎每天可以可以接觸到歹徒耶 他每天在面對打炸的時候 他幾乎每天面對歹徒耶很嚴重啦 好不好是 謝謝委員 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舍不舍平台当然也有责任所以你说对任何平台做什么样的处理我个人是没有意见但是你要注意一件事它政策的公平性跟一致性这个是非常非常重要的所以我今天跟你讨论这个因为在小红书这个封锁的一个"},{"start":176.264,"end":197.419,"text":"事件裡面我們聽到了這個看到你們的一個新聞稿就感覺說事實上我們警政署在辦這個案子有這個急迫性然後也很緊急的去做了一個處理但是呢這個小紅書公司他已讀不回嘛也就是說我們感覺我們窮盡了一些一切方法但是他沒辦法所以最後才有直接"},{"start":198.76,"end":225.879,"text":"直接在我們這個所有的法律啊特別為了網路有一個專章總共16個條文其中有15個條文是想說哇 加大業大像Meta 像Google它對社會影響一定比較大就像你也承認它現在詐騙金額還是最大的所以我們其中有15個條文很綿密的去規範這個對台灣社會影響最大的現在規定5%以上的就沒想到我們留了一條"},{"start":227.04,"end":244.65,"text":"劉慧條就說你不夠大你就大概是唯一死刑的概念所以你到底是不是窮盡一切我想請教一下這個張主任是這是你們的通知嘛你確認一下好不好你們的通知稿裡面新聞稿特別講你們有通知小紅書應該自行針對平台內不法內容"},{"start":245.57,"end":260.06,"text":"進行有效管理影響比較小的方式你們主要內容是這個嘛要求他你這個有詐騙內容這不法內容你要進行有效的管理這是你們的一個新聞稿最後是小紅書他沒有回應嘛"},{"start":261.261,"end":276.172,"text":"對不對是 包委員 這個是你們新聞稿對 我們新聞稿那就是說它的前提的原先的部分是行政院打壓中心這邊有針對這一個小紅書先通知他們做個有效管理那因為沒有回應"},{"start":278.063,"end":300.199,"text":"很好 那我就請問一下因為我們想有一些法律因為這個境外的網路所有在世界各地都有都有有時候也許阿拉伯的軟體我們目前沒有用但是未來有可能用在境外的像這種平台是非常多的我請問你的一致性因為現在網路包括一堆人在說的主要的原因主要原因就是它沒有落地"},{"start":300.859,"end":327.916,"text":"主要在外面論述包括政論節目包括某黨的po文第一個就是因為我們叫他他不落地那當然待會問數位部嘛因為數位部你沒有依法公告他是一定規模的所以他當然就沒有落地的一個所以你在講這個到底是你要求他管理還是因為他沒有落地就你警政署是因為他沒有落地嗎所以把他封鎖一年是不是因為他沒有落地是還是不是"},{"start":329.097,"end":357.183,"text":"包委員這個當然因為他沒有納管所以沒有因為他沒有落地嘛所以當然沒有納管那我這邊跟委員報告其實很謝謝委員這邊的指導現在其實跟您報告其實我這邊講一個數據其實大概委員們也都知道啦其實現在七個平台跟小紅樹的話數據的部分其實我跟大家報告其實確確實實在詐騙的數據大家看到因為他的用戶多嘛所以沒有他用戶多相對他會招詐的人數也會比較多不是啦是不是他沒有落地啦你剛剛那個邏輯錯了啦"},{"start":358.243,"end":382.55,"text":"因為他沒有落地 所以沒有納管 那個法條就規定先要把他公告5%以上 或者一定規模以上他才按照第28條裡面他有一些權利義務才出來嘛報委員他的27條規定是這樣就是說他每一個月獨立的訪客數我知道 數位部在後面嘛數位部的公文公告就沒有小紅書所以他會到達那個規模啦"},{"start":383.41,"end":411.588,"text":"沒有到達規模所以跟他落不落地因為法律沒有要求他落地所以不是這個原因坊間很多亂傳也不是你們你們要求是因為他沒有落地第二個請問一下因為這個送達通知很重要你們尤其我們警政署檢調在辦案都很重要就是說我通知一定要通知到你不然到時候你可以講說你是當事人所以你們現在不斷說我透過陸委會透過海基會然後就"},{"start":412.569,"end":440.205,"text":"就通知了嗎難道你不知道海軍會陸委會已經已讀不回已經很多年了嗎我就請教你如果你的公文書在其他人手上沒有送到你的我是法人也好我是個人沒有送到我送達通知或者到我的派出所做一個寄存送達通知我們台灣的法令嘛對不對你的意思就是說你推定小紅數位回應但我就請教一下"},{"start":441.431,"end":449.573,"text":"海基會有沒有跟你說已經把這個公文對方已經透過海協會送給當事人簽章的公文有回給你嗎"},{"start":452.124,"end":475.739,"text":"報告委員因為我們是在跨部會討論的時候那有受上級這個黨派總統這邊有開會所以沒有嘛所以就是說我丟出去了即使是中間人那也不管我不管可是你這樣去推定一家法人不好意思因為你收到的通知不作為其實我是覺得在法理上是有問題的再來現在明明就是網路嘛"},{"start":476.579,"end":487.261,"text":"那就請問一下你們辦案的那種精神有沒有透過他的網路網站或者他直接透過網路直接跟這家法人小紅書聯絡有沒有"},{"start":489.625,"end":510.381,"text":"因為我們這個偵查面的部分就是沒有一個窗口可以去掉所以你這麼緊急的事耶你用42條是非常緊急對我們人民非常危害所以你一通電話也不願意打給當事人你一個網路也不願意給他的話然後你就說做這樣推論那我就第三個請教你的專業"},{"start":512.096,"end":533.228,"text":"你們12月6號才你們刑事局才公布而且不要誤會兩岸共打好好的一切非常好那我就請問一下你們公告一切非常好的在小紅書事件上面你們要交換情資相關的打擊犯罪不管是這個平台業者是提供犯罪的一個場所他都是你們兩岸共打的可以交換情資"},{"start":534.408,"end":556.793,"text":"請問一下小紅書這件事情在封網之前你有沒有透過兩岸共打要求他傳遞訊息或者提供情資 有還是沒有幫委員 那個 跟您報告其實在各類重大案件的部分如果外勤大隊有查到嫌犯在大陸那邊都會透過兩岸共打由我們的刑事局 兩岸科不是啦 那你這個這麼好的管道你透過它因為各案 因為7 像今年1到4月是756件沒有 我跟你講"},{"start":562.854,"end":590.694,"text":"我想因為時間已經快到了我只是說啊未來換了一家在美國在韓國在哪裡的我覺得你們沒有道理這個信記了不管有沒有就是我送達他不回應你又這樣去推理怪怪的第二個呢也不要省力他有電話那麼緊急的事情你為什麼不打他有email"},{"start":591.354,"end":616.593,"text":"他有Homepage你不聯絡就是我什麼能做都不做不好意思就是他不理我我覺得這很離譜那就請問一下警政署再請教一下那請問一下你們未達5%的你看右下角未達5%的小紅數字牌第二嘛詐騙的件數目前你們打詐一標板警政署公布的他第二名447件那就請問一下第一名Telegram"},{"start":618.594,"end":637.291,"text":"2254件 那目前你們是警政組怎麼弄 危害很小他危害比較小就 我不講Meta好不好就是5%以下未公告的這一群弄在一起你們打造一標版 Telegram 你目前做什麼處理嘛我講說 處理一致性就好啦你們做什麼處理 請說明"},{"start":638.63,"end":660.229,"text":"包委員這個部分我們會回去我會再去做檢討所以每一個部分是你掛在那一標板掛了快大半年耶因為我們一標板它的數據會一直更新的每天都會更新可能昨天是2248件你不講這個事這是很無聊我在問你們你們警政署辦這個案我講支持嘛平台這詐騙本來當然就有責任嘛"},{"start":661.03,"end":675.565,"text":"他應該要回應嘛 我指第一個問題說你們該去做的事情 該通知的你真的有沒有把他當作一件詐騙 人民受損 這麼危急的事件一個email也不願意傳 一個電話也不願意打我就覺得有點莫名其妙Telegram"},{"start":677.229,"end":696.423,"text":"你們現在沒有處理嗎來你們有沒有處理Telegram第一名所以你現在就人家在問這個問題好不好你不要講公告的那四家七個平台那我就講這第一名你們意思說第一名沒有處理第一名有沒有通知包委員這個部分我回去再了解我的天啊"},{"start":698.12,"end":716.788,"text":"你有沒有通知你要通知他我們在案件裡面偵查裡面基本上只要是我們都會也都會聯繫你答不出來我就懂的所以實際上email也會發你是誰啊你是誰張主任是是我很尊重你你是專門負責這個詐欺方面的你是專業的你是這個人的主任"},{"start":717.708,"end":746.014,"text":"你對這麼大的一個平台業者你居然答不出來我覺得真的是我覺得是這個事情就有點悲哀了但是Telegram你要通知誰啊是要通知他我們目前實務上面確實也都無法通知你要通知他俄羅斯的原創者還要通知他英國的公司還要通知他杜拜的開發團隊你要通知誰我告訴你根本沒有通知我的意思就是說你們怎麼在處理這個我就2,250事件是加注在我們人民的詐騙案件"},{"start":747.054,"end":754.101,"text":"你痛不痛 你不痛 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謝謝主席 那麻煩邀請我們速發部林部長 林部長請 寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶寶"},{"start":19.031,"end":39.471,"text":"大家無案喔 抱歉喔 我想說剛剛原本想說要不要直接消失一下 大家就下課了開玩笑 跟大家請教一下 這兩三個禮拜很多國際的新聞 東南亞的新聞 泰國 緬甸 柬埔寨一下是自己的軍隊去打KK園區 一下是F16去轟炸園區 對不對我想確認一下"},{"start":42.854,"end":71.083,"text":"那最近的相關的詐騙的一些各項統計數據有沒有因此變少包括你們網域的封鎖就是一些詐騙的網址或者是實際上有報案的案件是不曉得各單位依照我們速發部我們速發部這邊主要是針對網路上的一些那個偽冒訊息的防堵依照我們的統計那個事實上過去這一年多來都穩定在下降跟一年多比起來最近炸完之後有沒有在更明顯的下降"},{"start":72.004,"end":84.504,"text":"這個照完以後可能我不知道有沒有最新的數字一部分是您的網域的嘛與網域的封鎖的提報譬如我們之前那個APP啊不是也都有民眾在上傳一些詐騙網站的可疑網址嗎那這些數量有沒有因此而減少"},{"start":87.019,"end":111.913,"text":"這個數量 坦白講就是說增加跟減少不一定就代表詐騙的數量減少因為我們一直在推廣網站通報查詢網我們希望更多人使用 更多人詐近期發生這麼多事件有沒有因此減少我個人的感覺好像是有減少但是我那個就是實際統計可能手上沒有資料好 那沒關係 那其他單位還是要補充 你要幫書發部補充"},{"start":117.701,"end":127.255,"text":"我們這邊的話是有針對網址的停職解析的部分那今年到目前為止的11月底的話是有停職解析的4萬5千件的網址"},{"start":130.461,"end":153.175,"text":"好 沒關係 我是想說了解最近這個詐騙源區這源頭啦 現在了解一下大家都以為在東南亞那實際上詐完之後有沒有減少我覺得這個要先釐清一下非常謝謝委員這個部分其實我們也一直在思考到底哪一個策略奏效那實際上跟委員報告其實事實上詐欺的數據不管是在發生受理報案書跟財損其實從今年的6月很明顯的逐步的下降"},{"start":153.735,"end":182.309,"text":"那尤其他下架的最高峰大概就是在我們是希望持續會再下下去那11月像我們每天關注大概就1萬2萬如果看到3萬我們就好緊張那實際上就像委員您所指示的就是說最近減碳這個打仗的問題他大概也是最近大概這一個月到半個月之間但是實際上我們在看其實12月有點怕怕的因為12月感覺上好像有一點點有時候到3萬"},{"start":183.61,"end":199.504,"text":"然後就是感覺上每天看那個數據不如11月來的安心所以實際上就是委員你所講說這個他們戰爭這個部分到底是不是有影響其實我們目前還在觀察當中還沒有照明確的很明確的指標好 那我們這個"},{"start":201.045,"end":221.76,"text":"打壓中心呢有要補充了嗎還是你手上沒有數據跟委員報告就是其實詐欺在醫學上其實它是一種慢性病它不會因為一種藥方就會好了這樣其實就是其他就是它就漸漸好是因為它有任何的相關措施作為然後以那個最近東南亞的部分因為其實整個詐騙雖然"},{"start":223.041,"end":237.117,"text":"很多大宗司放在柬埔寨可是柬埔寨也很大然後現在被打擊的是跟泰國交界的部分所以說它是佔其中的一部分當然我們是希望因為那邊打仗 剩下的人會怕然後趕快跑這樣來減少這個數字"},{"start":239.159,"end":253.919,"text":"不過 假如以詐欺而言 你假如是機房被抄的話他不會立即下降 他會先升再降原因是為什麼 因為他可能詐騙是長期的在騙你一個月 兩個月突然他被詐掉 他就 我怎麼"},{"start":254.54,"end":278.419,"text":"很多人就本來有在定期聯繫的然後說總統突然沒有聯繫的我擔心一下發生什麼事趕快去報案我就覺得我們可以利用這個指標來確認一下因為我們過去都說這個犯罪的中心或者他們一個集團化都是在東南亞這些緬甸或者是柬埔寨那實際上如果說發生戰爭或者一些軍事的行動在攻擊的話那一定是會影響到他們的一個作業如果說"},{"start":279.62,"end":301.205,"text":"照常理來判斷有供給的話那相關的後續可能或許會有這個延遲性的一個時間但是一定會對數量或是相關的一些訊息的散布一定會有影響如果沒有影響的話就代表說我們過去的一些判斷那是不是會有一些失準我們以為我們的大宗的詐騙來源都是來自那一邊但實際上被抄完了之後如果說沒有變的話"},{"start":302.485,"end":320.879,"text":"那怎麼會這樣 一定是我們當初的判斷可能有一些問題後續可以以這個指標來做一下我們一些源頭的部分的一些釐清跟我們怎麼來做防範以上那另外要再請教一下我們蘇發部長 林部長剛剛有特別提到這個小紅書有提到說現在TWNIC有封鎖網域那APP的部分沒有嗎"},{"start":327.264,"end":344.495,"text":"我想確認一下APP的部分沒有就我今天也先不跟你們討論說這個意識形態還怎麼樣啦這個我指控你們也不會你們也不會承認嘛我們就討論客觀的事我們現在封小紅書的話網域封鎖那APP沒有進是因為進不了還是沒有去執行"},{"start":346.407,"end":367.549,"text":"第一個就是因為我們疏發部事實上並不是決策機關因為這件事情是內政部依照炸防條例第42條然後發文給TWNIC 請TWNIC用DNSRPG就你的專業如果說要進APP的話做得到嗎"},{"start":368.854,"end":381.913,"text":"坦白講因為internet的特性就是說完全進那個封組是很難的即使在中國中國他有網路長程但是中國人也是會利用但至少形式上制度上面的一個封做得到嗎"},{"start":383.37,"end":397.599,"text":"制度上的封因為是技術上還是制度上技術上現在就是一個普遍的譬如說你說TWIC你禁但是我是還是可以用跳板那是另外的一個手段嘛對不對譬如說我們不做另外的手段的正常操作使用下面禁得了嗎"},{"start":399.131,"end":421.687,"text":"跟我們補充說明喔因為App的方式的話它其實是一個以多網域多服務的架構所以它一個App可能會連到好幾個網域另外一個的話就是說它的多服務架構它可能有一些有一些服務是更寄生在這個CDN裡面喔所以這個的話就變成說你很難如果你要全封的話你可能不能精準打擊"},{"start":422.367,"end":448.286,"text":"所以這個在技術上有它的一個限制就是說你擋一個網域的話可能APP還是可以work那但是你全部擋掉的話你可能會變成傷及無辜那我再確認一下那個內政部有辦法或者是打到指揮中心有辦法說明一下為什麼當初只有發給TWN IC而沒有針對APP的部分去執行是做不到技術上面還是說我們沒有要做這樣子"},{"start":448.871,"end":463.927,"text":"因為在炸防條例的第42條部分只有情資解析意圖他沒有辦法請App Store或者Google Play也把那個就禁止下架所以說這段時間大家可能以為是不是民意的反彈"},{"start":465.189,"end":481.748,"text":"讓我們的政府是不是意識到我們民意就是採納民意的方式不要去禁小紅書但實際上我們政府沒有辦法把小紅書的APP禁掉並不是因為我們你們政府不想禁而是技術上做不到是這樣子是不是"},{"start":484.789,"end":511.4,"text":"就是技術上是有困境的所以是技術上做不到啦所以說之前院長說什麼一年的一個時間嘛對不對那一年的時間到了之後你們應該也是做不到啊所以是一個虛張真事我們是希望藉由這次來再跟小紅蘇請他再要提供相關的聯繫管道至少再停止再下架跟那就是院長講的這一年假設院長講的這一年的時間到了那他們一樣沒有落地的話那能有什麼作為"},{"start":515.112,"end":540.34,"text":"現行的機制好像辦不到嘛對不對好不好那我當然啦我個人是當然是非常不贊成這個封小紅書的這一項決策啦畢竟你知道我們要跟你爭你的認同但是你也知道我們普遍社會上面大家的一個認知都是認為說就是一個意識形態的一個操作啦那也希望說當然你們都是專業的幕僚單位啦那也希望說你們未來都能夠站在"},{"start":541.4,"end":562.957,"text":"民眾的立場來提供一些這個中央政府的一些決策的一些建議那未來如果說這個小紅書的問題這個看起來好像就是這樣啦你未來不可能再多進了嗎對我只要確認一下這件事情而已所以說大部分的使用者應該是可以放心啦我應該可以這樣子理解啦以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166661","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166661","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d6031081ac846d110d91d90d5b7b1a8c99953d00c89e76a212f2843dd09ca1b81945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:38:41 - 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什麼之類最近你是昨天的事情不是開個會啊這裡面就提到低軌衛星的事情我們現在低軌衛星號什麼時候可以"},{"start":309.42,"end":337.794,"text":"我們目前已經有OneWeb的第一軌衛星已經在運作了已經運作一年多了我們目前在跟Amazon Leo他們在談Amazon Leo是預計在明年他會推出我們明年會陸續進行部署我們跟他們目前相當的協商你昨天的開會的重點這一部分有沒有放了一個很重要的位置 有沒有"},{"start":339.154,"end":345.596,"text":"很重要的比重啊就是談低軌衛星因為我們電然電然現在來講到萬一怎麼樣的話就靠低軌衛星了難道不是嗎是啊當然所以我們非常積極的跟那個Amazon Leo在談什麼時候我們可以期待說低軌衛星全部的普遍化"},{"start":358.639,"end":377.738,"text":"现在不是卡在我们这边是因为那个Amazon Leo它现在也在陆续在发射卫星他们现在在发射了几百个他们的目标是总共要发射7300个这个要好几年那陆续会推出那只要那个美国基本上就是美国那边上市可以开始使用我们台湾这边应该也就可以同步开始使用了"},{"start":378.747,"end":397.094,"text":"現在這樣子喔你們社群平台喔沒有預警的下架網紅的頻道在上一任的黃部長都說這是不應該的現在我們辦公室跟你們反映20天沒有回顧已經反映了20天"},{"start":399.435,"end":401.657,"text":"社群平台無預警的下架網紅頻道"},{"start":422.984,"end":437.303,"text":"因為這個會發生這個事情的原因是因為現在那個像META他基本上是採用幾個方式第一個是那個他會設他們的那個社群守則那社群守則是在美國的總部在Washington 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這個待會兒再還我幾秒 謝謝這個還是馬次長這個馬次長也是內政部的次長但是馬次長卻選擇要缺席今天的會議我想所有質詢的委員或者在線上收看的民眾可能都會非常失望本席在此要表達不解與深刻的遺憾"},{"start":66.32,"end":84.833,"text":"那不要浪費我們召委用心的安排一個這麼重要的角色就在今天進來沒有出席這一點希望幫忙轉達一下這個未來我們希望能夠跟他有更多的互動那依據這個打架中心的設置要點指揮中心的任務包括統籌五國打擊 詐欺犯罪還有協調跨部會的"},{"start":86.454,"end":110.554,"text":"詐欺 打詐的這個犯罪的這個打詐犯罪的防治的分工那想請問一下祖密啊 子密啊您知道目前就這個詐欺犯罪防治危害條例這個第32 第33條有關詐騙廣告詐騙訊息跟涉詐帳號的通報下架作業在政府部門端有哪幾個主要的管道"},{"start":112.969,"end":130.631,"text":"先跟委員報告一下其實在32條跟33條的部分其實在政府不能端最主要是第一個就是由數位部有建立的長大通報查詢法其實第二個部分其實各個業者都有跟警政署或司法機關做CPC的一個管道"},{"start":131.112,"end":148.458,"text":"好 很好事實上您提供的這個答案就明確說明了我們兩大體系一個是速發部剛剛我們都聽到很多打造通茶網或其他的機制還有一個是警政系統在中央是透過警政署的刑事警察局在地方則是各縣市政府的警察局"},{"start":149.438,"end":165.372,"text":"根據我們了解甚至小到派出所都可以透過警政系統建立的平台來請平台業者封鎖疑似的帳號我們得到一些數字說今年統計到11月為止Meta 社詐的廣告 貼文 粉專帳號下架達14.8萬多件"},{"start":168.394,"end":192.432,"text":"這是我們的政府 宣稱的一個打詐成效然而我們今天各部會所提供的報告大部分或幾乎全部都沒有提到被錯誤下架的民眾該如何申訴 民眾又如何保障您從警政系統出來我們警察抓壞人可以隨便傷及無辜嗎不可以 很好 您回答得很好在這裡我要這個肯定"},{"start":192.992,"end":210.526,"text":"金管會的部分就有一頁講了人工輔助AI要減少誤判沒錯因為我們不能傷及無辜前一陣子發生好多起經營已久的粉專去遭到政府通報網路平台業者封鎖下架累積超過18萬粉絲的專業一夕之間被封鎖了"},{"start":214.73,"end":231.233,"text":"裡面提到他說是刑事警察局他聯絡了以後Meta說不知道是哪一個刑事單位用了非常長的時間當然最後我們還是要肯定我們的警政單位跟我們的Meta還是協助他恢復了"},{"start":231.653,"end":251.694,"text":"但這還是18萬帳號的粉絲啊我們幾百個帳號錯殺的陳情者可能沒有這樣子的一個能力跟運氣啊他們只是看到一個哇 這個這個刑事警察局相關的這個單位結果呢他可能家庭照片工作往來 營生的工具 社群經營的成果這個帳號"},{"start":253.536,"end":271.538,"text":"就這樣可能被一個地方警局可能是誤解或誤會按下一個鈕整個數位世界的人生被下架刪除還不能知道是哪個政府機關做的要怎麼做的那我想啊這個他們的自己的數位賬號也是他的人權"},{"start":272.199,"end":287.328,"text":"也有權利要拿回來他像這些行政機關申訴那本席爭取了很久啊好不容易我們理解到Meta在上週跟警政系統的通報封鎖下架的頁面做了修改本來是一律寫刑事警察局"},{"start":288.288,"end":315.78,"text":"改成實際通報的警局這一點我們要謝謝刑事警察局不斷向Meta提出改善建議平台也配合但是這樣還是不夠的我們希望能夠逐步的要求整個通報下架帳號以及民眾無辜民眾的申訴流程和數據要更加透明公開請教執密您知道近三個月來警政通報系統多少民眾的申訴案件嗎當中又有多少確定是誤報而復權的案件 您知道嗎"},{"start":316.28,"end":342.955,"text":"不好意思我們手上沒有這個資訊我會了解之後跟你回報沒錯 事實上我們也確認了這些數據連警政署都沒有掌握還要進一步的去跟地方警局來調資料更何況行政院您在打炸中心更難得知為什麼會這樣問因為執迷您代表行政院來我們就希望很沉重的來告訴你這不是一個使用者個別的抱怨因為這是影響到人的數位人權"},{"start":343.675,"end":368.514,"text":"而且這除了是數位人權的侵害以外還可能影響到實體人權為什麼 12月15號開始美國宣布申請五種簽證入境的人要公開社群帳號如果我要入境美國結果突然被打詐誤刪誤打誤下架我就沒辦法申請了我沒辦法申請這些簽證這甚至會侵害到憲法賦予的人權"},{"start":369.395,"end":399.181,"text":"居住 遷徙那台灣對於人權的侵害不能延伸到數位的世界來我們相信每一位通報下架社群帳號的員警都是本於全責想要打擊犯罪但是實際上能和Meta或平台業者直接溝通開會的其實只有中央的刑事警察局可是社群守則會一直變動通報下架的流程規範可能也會改變但是如果只有完整資訊的人只有刑事警察局"},{"start":399.641,"end":426.104,"text":"那各縣市的警局啊派出所有權限但沒有同步到很可能就不小心我想他們也不是惡意的但很可能不小心就誤傷了民眾的數位帳號所以這一點 執密我想要跟您這個分享交流既然您代表打壓中心前來列席啦那我們今天的訴求也非常簡單現場也有刑事警察局的代表本席在此具體提出三點要求第一"},{"start":426.784,"end":450.622,"text":"未來的縣市警察局分局以及派出所除了每月將通報下架的資料彙整到中央以外能不能也需要將申訴案件數 賦權案件數一併彙整到中央以公開透明為原則定期向外公佈相關數據以立各界了解真正的打詐成效不然你全部都打錯了我數字還可以再成長 對吧"},{"start":451.383,"end":472.664,"text":"第二點為使基層警員能夠熟知數位人權的保障事項了解最新的運作規則能不能請刑事警察局跟META進行協調每年至少舉行一次每年一次我知道大家都非常忙每年至少一次通報下架作業原則數位人權相關流程的線上會議那也開放"},{"start":473.064,"end":493.124,"text":"各地的警局派出所 員警可以來參加這第二點 這個主席我爭取一點時間很快第三點 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不知道我們有沒有一個跨平台還有跨樣態尤其是跨樣態的整體風險追蹤指標而不是只是單一的同胞像蘇巴布有這個打債APP那還有不只是這個單一的同胞然後還有下架的數量"},{"start":132.841,"end":154.069,"text":"整個打詐的工作事實上是跨部會在進行的主要負責是內政部他們那邊成立的打詐指揮中心我們抒發部這邊負責的就是網路上面的詐騙我們要想辦法遏止網路上的詐騙目前我們觀察到的情形的確是網路上譬如說在Facebook上"},{"start":155.009,"end":182.825,"text":"因為速發部一直在網路上面做努力嘛你們有建置了網路詐騙通報的查詢網也有通報Meta還有Google像Line大量涉詐的內容那也有對Meta進行裁罰我看到是1850萬喔那我想請教主要的一個問題喔那是否我們現在看到的是不是都是集中在我們下架了多少就只是數字上面那有沒有一個指標它可以衡量在民眾接觸之前我們就已經成功的阻斷了這個詐騙的比例"},{"start":184.006,"end":212.298,"text":"有這個就是我們把我們的那個這個通報了跟Meta已經通報了超過24萬則的詐騙訊息然後Meta他去訓練他的AI平台那他已經阻斷了那個針對台灣的詐騙訊息超過780萬則市長您一直都有提到已經下架了已經就是確認這些詐騙訊息是超過23萬24萬則那就表示這些內容在通報之前他已經成功的投放過了他也"},{"start":212.998,"end":229.758,"text":"成功的曝光然後民眾也接收到了嘛所以我們在講的在要討論的是事情OK這樣我理解委員律師啊那沒錯我們要盡量縮短這個他上架的時間所以我們一直朝這個方向努力那現在我們通報給Facebook的那個詐騙廣告他們平均應該是3.5個小時"},{"start":234.402,"end":255.911,"text":"3.5個小時就會下架然後如果是一般的訊息非廣告的那個一般的詐騙訊息的話是平均是8個小時他們會下架我們在報告中裡面也看到說Meta現在是最大宗嘛那對Facebook他們來說廣告他們這廣告組只要他們付得起他們就可以投放廣告然後系統也會進行推送這些廣告嘛所以對他們來說這些就跟一般的"},{"start":256.671,"end":275.364,"text":"廣告組是一樣的他們不會去分辨這是不是詐騙的廣告沒有錯吧等一下那個就是我剛才講的我們就是要求Meta跟我們合作讓他們主動下封組了780萬則這個大部分這些廣告或者訊息就是連上架都還沒有上架他們偵測到就把它封組掉了就把它封組掉"},{"start":276.564,"end":295.972,"text":"因為目前還是此時此刻也還是有詐騙廣告在Facebook上面嘛那我也不是我不是要求主管機關要介入他們的演算法那要請教蘇發布我們是不是可以再跟平台共同合作然後提出防詐計畫的時候就要求平台說明這些詐騙的內容然後還有是否因應推薦還有"},{"start":296.972,"end":305.898,"text":"推播這些廣告而被放大因為這個是有關他們的觸及率嘛是是是沒錯那我們有沒有一個制度性的措施來降低這種被放大的風險"},{"start":307.248,"end":328.861,"text":"是就是如同我們剛才講的還有就是委員現在那個這個做出來那個投影片上面上面有寫紅字嘛去年也有官員到美國跟平台高層高通那時候就是我要是想請書副部長說我們不是要介入他們的演算法那我們是不是可以請平台就是他們提出他們是不是可以針對這些詐騙內容來避免被放大的情形"},{"start":329.361,"end":344.909,"text":"是 那個就是我們談的內容就是這樣而且我們要求各個平台出透明度報告裡面也都必須有這些制度性的作為那我們是不是請我們素產署黃副署長補充說明 謝謝是 謝謝委員"},{"start":346.01,"end":365.103,"text":"委員我們因為對於納管的網路廣告平台業者會要求他們要提供防炸計畫書這個防炸計畫書裡面就會有去做他的風險的一個評估那到了年底的時候在每年年底之前要出具他的透明度報告書所以他有沒有依照他的防炸計畫書去執行這個部分他必須要去做"},{"start":368.104,"end":386.208,"text":"請問部長我們對Meta裁罰了1850萬那您認為他們有改善的動機嗎還是這只是一個誘因因為對於他們來說他們95%的收入都是來自於廣告剛剛也有委員提到他們的是非常可觀的那他們不改那只會他們繼續去繼續做這件事然後他們還是繼續賺錢嘛那對於這樣的裁罰設計對平台你認為來說這是對他們來說是可預期的嗎"},{"start":394.411,"end":418.319,"text":"的確對於像Meta這樣的國際型大公司來講我們之前給他裁罰1850萬對他們來講並不是一筆很大的錢但是最重要的就是我們這個裁罰不是為了報復也不是因為我們缺錢政府缺這1850萬最重要我們是希望他改變他的行為希望他們加入我們打炸的行列加入我們所謂的好人隊這邊而且必須做系統性的去改善"},{"start":418.359,"end":437.707,"text":"那我們也要注意到如果這個裁罰對他們的行為沒有辦法改變的話那只是問題還是存在那再多的通報再多的下架那還是把問題往後延嘛那這邊再請NCC是 有他們應該是有改善啦那個雖然我們還是不是完全滿意但是那個Meta有在朝好的方向進展謝謝"},{"start":441.89,"end":461.717,"text":"委員長 處長好 處長我直接就問一個問題門號是NCC管的沒有錯嘛 是那NCC可以管門號也管得了門號那為什麼帳號還是滿天飛嘛因為這些帳號都是要透過門號去做註冊嘛像Facebook還是Line還是Google那NCC的報告也有指出以停話或限進將近1.6萬的門號也攔阻了5000萬的境外通話也攔阻了20萬個詐騙的網域那"},{"start":468.119,"end":488.781,"text":"請問這些被停話還有限制的門號有多少是造成實際詐騙之前就你們就已經意識到了還是民眾受害之後被停話之後然後你們才掌握到跟我們報告那個停話的部分我們配合台高檢的一個平台我們有把停話的資料送給台高檢然後送給一些那個平台這邊來清理所以"},{"start":489.742,"end":518.481,"text":"之前在整個政府的座位裡面已經有把停話的資料送給平台這邊然後有停了斷話的那個帳號把它停掉的措施處長因為這個詐騙的流程它是要有門號嘛然後在平台上面去辦理註冊然後再透過廣告或是私訊詐騙民眾那你會不會覺得這些門話被停話之前那詐騙的任務他們都已經達成了那你們NCC這邊還能不能就是說就是從源頭我們都說要從源頭來落實賭占你們這邊可以再做到什麼樣的因應"},{"start":519.461,"end":542.346,"text":"所以跟委員報告就是在整個打詐的作為裡面通傳會這邊有把這個已經有人有知道這個門號拿來做詐騙的部分的這個停話之後把這個門號的資料送給平台這邊因為那個是帳號不管是金管會還是說社群平台的那把"},{"start":543.306,"end":566.273,"text":"那些帳號可能還沒有我這邊因為時間的關係我這邊再請教部長一個問題喔我們都討論要實名制那實名制會不會變成就民眾彷彿因為看到有實名制他們反而放心了因為有經過實名制嘛我們不會應該不會做完全的實名制因為這個實名制會有侵犯到民眾隱私的狀況所以除了中國以外"},{"start":567.193,"end":590.702,"text":"其他主要國家應該都沒有做在網路上完全實施實名制我們是希望做類實名制就是譬如說購買一些比較敏感的產品的時候那必須做實名的認證還有就是說我們會希望透過數位憑證皮夾這種技術就是主動揭露譬如說你這個帳戶的擁有者是不是台灣人還是外國人這個地方我們希望這些平台"},{"start":590.742,"end":605.74,"text":"而且部長因為民眾最在意的還是就是他們不會被詐騙然後也不會誤信這些詐騙然後最重要是他們的畢生的積蓄不會因為詐騙然後一夕之間全沒了那再請NCC還有抒發部還有相關的各部會一起共同是我們會努力謝謝委員的指教謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166657","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166657","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60d340b910a28037fd8f4e93bf07b6087f53d00c89e76a212fa4760fc26950f44b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:56:18 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Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T11:56:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T12:06:26+08:00","duration":608,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.8240937500000001,"end":2.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.17409375,"end":2.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.41346875,"end":9.531593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.30784375,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.509718750000001,"end":14.982218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.57284375,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.589718750000003,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.61846875,"end":24.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.06971875,"end":22.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.31409375,"end":24.870968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.191593750000003,"end":27.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.73971875,"end":33.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.392843750000004,"end":36.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.75534375,"end":44.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.28159375,"end":47.213468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.470968750000004,"end":54.570968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.73159375,"end":73.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.40846875,"end":68.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.77909375,"end":94.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.36659375,"end":95.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.68284375,"end":95.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.77534375,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.05784375,"end":102.78284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.79534375,"end":110.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.68034375,"end":110.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.73096875,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.38846875,"end":121.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.94034375000001,"end":123.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.62784375000001,"end":126.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.00284375000001,"end":128.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.22596875000002,"end":133.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.76971875,"end":135.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.01409375,"end":137.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.86596875,"end":141.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.82284375,"end":167.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.43659375000001,"end":158.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.10596875000002,"end":174.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.26096875000002,"end":194.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.04284375,"end":194.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.46471875,"end":194.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.80221875,"end":219.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.50659375,"end":197.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.35409375,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.19346875000002,"end":202.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.35284375,"end":208.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.62534375,"end":224.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.14784375000002,"end":227.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.31659375,"end":224.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.38409375,"end":224.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.45971875,"end":233.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.61909375000002,"end":236.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.55096875,"end":236.80409375000002},{"spea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謝謝召委請陳部長來 部長"},{"start":14.557,"end":36.737,"text":"部長這個提高老農津貼的這個方向部裡面應該是支持啦對 我剛才說了就是說不管在額度或是在排富的部分那什麼時候會把這個版本提出來我想我們現在的版本現在在行政院那我們會去爭取盡快的有沒有問過院裡面什麼時候會把它提到因為院會的"},{"start":37.117,"end":59.643,"text":"排院會的部分喔有很多不同的法案都在排隊嗎那我想我們會再去去爭取部長有提到好像今年5月有提到年底前希望送到我們我們的目標是這樣子但是因為最後的那個立法院排進去我們還會再跟行政院希望加快速度好不好大家都有共識的嘛這立委們也有共識包括布林報院也有共識提高"},{"start":60.363,"end":88.261,"text":"这个老龙津贴的部分因应相关的物价跟相关的整个通膨的部分给予合理的一个调整那我再问一下部长那金额的部分会到多少部里面提出来我刚才说的就是说虽然说我们在110年100年开始我们的那个额度的部分每4年有根据CPI调整但是因为当时的基数比较低所以你调了这么多年来才到8110块"},{"start":89.702,"end":113.875,"text":"那很顯然這個基數太低我們覺得這個基數是可以適度的提高會不會超過一萬元我沒有辦法現在完全的說明但是部長你支不支持超過一萬元我基本上我們在看任何的金額的部分一定會去看我們的財政的負擔對 所以如果財政負擔可以撞下你支持超過一萬元"},{"start":115.441,"end":140.569,"text":"我們也要看比例啦 這個部分我覺得我現在沒辦法很明確的說明多少錢不過你的把本已經送到院會了不是嗎我基本上希望說我們的條的幅度是有一個那你送到院會的把本有沒有超過我想我們因為院裡面沒有核定我們沒辦法在這邊說明但是應該是朝這個方向對不對對 就是會提高這個是確定的提高確定的 然後朝向1萬元以上的這樣方向"},{"start":143.851,"end":167.47,"text":"好沒關係不勉強部長了好不好我們朝努力啦因為我希望還是現在其實不管是老農甚至於青農啦甚至很多的其實我覺得對農民的照顧還是要持續的增加讓我們的農村讓我們的農民有更多人願意在那邊做努力好不好那我一樣的問題啦這個大家也提到暫行的部分部長應該同意把這個暫行拿掉了吧"},{"start":168.277,"end":192.629,"text":"對 我剛才也特別說了就是我當初立法的時候我不在場我不知道當初以暫行條例的這個暫行放下去的立法的原因不過以現在這個制度來講已經推行了這麼久那我們更應該把它制度化變成一個財力如果在法制上沒有特別問題然後再因為這個要調整可能要經過年金改革委員會來討論那我們也會支持部長"},{"start":194.93,"end":219.533,"text":"最早的是民國84年的老年農民福利金暫行條例超過30年了30年也都在發放了那一個事情暫行了30年我想可以不用再暫行了這已經是一個固定的制度那現在走向兩套制度並用的方向也都確定了所以我認為這個暫行應該是可以拿掉了就是朝向整個部長應該同意這樣的方向吧"},{"start":219.733,"end":236.751,"text":"對 如果說在法制上面如果沒有特別的問題的時候我們覺得因為他的製度不想法制上有什麼特別的問題這件事情應該內部應該有解所以我說如果法制上沒有任何問題的時候我們也支持用暫行暫行可以拿掉農業部的幕僚單位有跟你做過報告嗎這個部分暫行的部分是可以刪除的"},{"start":239.844,"end":267.572,"text":"OK 我們法制說暫停的部分如果說因為制度一直在執行是可以刪除的對 法務的意見給你是可以刪除的那部長你支持把他拿掉我個人覺得說他的制度應該是一個連續性的如果是連續性的一個政策法務上沒有問題法制上沒有問題的話你支持把他拿掉好 謝謝我們的看法是一樣的我認為就是把他拿掉讓大家知道我們這一套退休的制度是穩固的"},{"start":268.092,"end":291.72,"text":"特別是已經過30年了 也已經過30年了好 那再來我也請教一下這個因為部長剛剛也提到了就是說本來是年底前 今天12月24的那接下來送到委員會來運作的時候送到院會來 立法院院會來處理完畢的時候這個的回推會回到今年來會溯及既往嗎 還是將來來整個"},{"start":293.741,"end":317.632,"text":"通過的時候再來整個試用還是會溯及到明年的1月1號開始這要看後續這個法案通過了以後的時間點那如果說在法規上面的一個可以追溯的話就會追溯到1月要看法規本身 董事長照你的精神上面你希望在今年5月的時候你希望在今年年底前完成我們希望在這個會期"},{"start":318.852,"end":347.194,"text":"1月1號已經可以有新的在這個會期我們盡量那我們朝這個努力啦方向努力到將來認為應該給予這些老人基金提高的話那不管通過時間點也許是因為會期延伸延到明年的1月底我相信明年1月底前應該會完成這個修法我們也期待這樣子那如果完成修法的話是不是我們就溯及到1月1號來發房那這樣的話我想我們也希望是朝這個方向好嗎我們朝這個方向來做我相信朝野的立委都會支持不管最後的金額增加多少"},{"start":347.975,"end":377.011,"text":"回溯到1月1號來正式發放應該是大家願意給農民的一個支持啦好那部長也支持這個方向好 謝謝再來關心的是台富的部分因為現在因為當時設定了500萬的這樣一個條款那事實上現在的農地的價格也都很多都上來的其實有時候稍微就超過了有時候可能一分地就超過了其實並沒有很大可能不到300坪的面積可能就超過了這個台富的條款農地不算嘛農地不算喔"},{"start":377.992,"end":396.052,"text":"好 農地不算在那個計算裡面所以可以不用農地是不算的好 OK那如果這樣的話 農地也不算對 但是其他的部分會被排除掉嘛是不是對那這個部分 排富的部分部長這邊會不會做整體的思考我想排富的部分我剛才也說了第一個部分就是所得的排富的部分"},{"start":396.713,"end":420.578,"text":"那過去也都沒有跟著CPI調整所以這次我們也希望說他跟著CPI來調整然後第二個部分是財產的部分那財產的部分特別是土地的部分如果排除了農地以外的其他的土地的部分那這個部分土地公告限值在過去從100年到現在已經提高了60%多了64.78%左右所以我們也希望說"},{"start":421.018,"end":437.663,"text":"他可能因為家裡有一個自住的住宅的房子那個房子價格如果超過了500的話他就沒辦法領到所以我們也會把他根據我們的土地公告限職去做相關的所以這個也會拉高啦會拉高 比如說如果他是自有的住宅自己的總是老人家"},{"start":438.923,"end":459.956,"text":"老房子然後居住的那因為現在價格拉高了以後可能超過500萬了對不管是土地不管是房子我們都希望拉高因為我一直認為農民一輩子辛苦買來的房子他不會因為輕易的賣掉啦那他的這些這些地價上漲也不是他越當然他最後可能會得利"},{"start":460.456,"end":484.367,"text":"但是他不可能為了這個得利馬上賣房子通常老農民不會願意去輕易的賣掉自己的房子所以我們希望說適度的提高這個排富的門檻那不要因為這些而影響到他領進去老進貼的好不好那我們希望這個部分盡快的提出來那適度的調高讓這些老農們他們一輩子務農一輩子付出這個部分他能夠領得到他該有的一些進貼好不好"},{"start":484.947,"end":507.061,"text":"那再來我也請教一下其實我覺得老農的部分不只是發現金包括甚至青農因為我前陣子剛也到這個東高雄去美農旗山很多的這個綠色的照顧服務其實也做得相當好我也希望很多的老人家其實他到了社區關懷據點去了其實不只是做一些他有時候做一些綠色的職財"},{"start":508.522,"end":528.382,"text":"有過去的一些農作的經驗老人家很多有農作的經驗那他們其實來做的話其實那也是非常療癒的過程通常也非常有我是希望能夠大力的支持我希望農業部能夠大力的支持在各個農村或各個地方的社區的一些站點的時候有更多的這樣的推廣讓更多的老人家走出他的家庭走出他的"},{"start":528.962,"end":544.759,"text":"到社區來同時間做的事情不是只做原來既有的他同時間也可以做更多的這些農業的或者做一些植栽的或做一些的這個綠色照顧的等等這些我認為對他們都是一個非常好的一個方向我謝謝委員我還是跟委員說明就是"},{"start":545.88,"end":566.082,"text":"從我個人在政策上的一個方向就是農村不再是一個生產的一個基地農村應該有更多的那個支持系統去導入特別是針對農村的老人本身的綠色造物我們有綠飲食 綠陪伴 綠療癒那這等等的部分就是為了能夠讓我們的"},{"start":567.583,"end":590.3,"text":"年紀長者在農村的年紀長者能夠得到一個應有的照顧這個我希望擴大來加大來舉辦我們會這樣擴大來辦理最後一個就是像最近高雄的南瓜生產過剩那很多其實可以作為冷凍的蔬菜我也希望這一塊請營養農業部持續的注意如果有些我們的農產品生產過剩的時候冷凍蔬菜其實是未來一個也是重要的一個趨勢方向能夠協助好嗎"},{"start":591.101,"end":604.072,"text":"對 有一些特定的可以冷凍的蔬菜我們會在產銷調節的過程中去協助農民去做一些冷凍然後先凍存以後再做加工好 謝謝 希望維持他們的價格然後也希望農產品發揮最好的效果這是我們應該要做的好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝二維 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"166656","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166656","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d605bb20892fc1e2b0d8f4e93bf07b6087f53d00c89e76a212fa4760fc26950f44b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:45:31 - 11:56:03","影片長度":"00:10:32","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T11:45:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T11:56:03+08:00","duration":632,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.01346875,"end":4.2497187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.072218750000001,"end":6.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.51909375,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.93659375,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.25284375,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.070968750000002,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.70346875,"end":16.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.37784375,"end":22.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.250968750000002,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.625968750000002,"end":27.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.03096875,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.28409375,"end":27.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.85784375,"end":29.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.680343750000002,"end":45.846593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.10784375,"end":48.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.71534375,"end":55.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.42721875,"end":57.321593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.625343750000006,"end":61.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.77659375,"end":67.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.86846875,"end":84.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.38471875,"end":91.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.01659375000001,"end":98.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.76659375000001,"end":108.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.29659375000001,"end":129.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.12034375000002,"end":134.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.42346875,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.62534375,"end":140.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.59971875000002,"end":143.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.55284375000002,"end":143.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.99159375000002,"end":144.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.36284375,"end":145.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.08409375000002,"end":151.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.92284375,"end":160.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.17471875,"end":163.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.54971875,"end":170.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.05909375000002,"end":173.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.72534375,"end":179.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.39096875,"end":213.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.76971875,"end":214.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.40659375,"end":218.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.24159375000002,"end":219.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.09784375,"end":223.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.75971875000002,"end":234.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.82971875,"end":238.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.50409375,"end":239.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.22971875000002,"end":244.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.63409375,"end":251.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.65409375000002,"end":255.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.72096875000003,"end":280.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.12221875,"end":280.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.78034375000004,"end":283.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.20596875,"end":284.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.03284375000004,"end":296.50784375},{"sp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想知道說七十幾年以來台灣的物價上漲 基本生活上的開銷越來越大 想要說整個勞農津貼的制度有對比到現實生活 身分的這個問題身分的問題跟我們現在處理這個勞農津貼是不是完全對等的關係啦"},{"start":56.902,"end":67.067,"text":"好 沒關係來 我們這個勞動金條已經開罐那麼久在十幾年前我們科學企業的基礎調整過這個機制到以前大概一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一百一千一八一千一八一千一八一千一八一千一八一千一八一千一八一千一八一千一八一千一八一千一八一千一八一千一八一千一八一千"},{"start":87.359,"end":107.792,"text":"請問我們這個國庭 先有先人 現行的經貼經驗已經過發到幾乎老農最基金的這個生活 我說過程有幾十個我跟委員報告我們的福利制度裡面所提出來的八千一百一十塊絕對不是讓老農就可以去"},{"start":109.386,"end":137.998,"text":"完全去做過很好的生活他只是一個福利制度裡面一個政府對老農的一個照顧那第二個部分就是說我們農民沒那65歲就退休了有非常非常多的將近30萬的農民65歲還繼續工作所以他可以繼續從事農業的這些所得再加上政府對農民的一個照顧這樣的話就能夠讓他的退休以後的生活特別是我們現在又推動退休儲金嘛"},{"start":138.838,"end":150.161,"text":"那未來的年輕人他退休以後可以領到應該三萬九千多塊好 年輕人像我們老人經常號稱有貴啊 物價指數的挑戰的世界但是在這種十四年來只有三個的條件兩千多個條件的幅度只有幾百塊"},{"start":161.203,"end":164.727,"text":"我跟委員報告你剛才說的我們現在的物價一直漲高嘛我們的物價的"},{"start":180.467,"end":187.51,"text":"的標仗會反映在我們的CPI所以我們假期從80年開始應該100年開始在調整都是根據CPI下去調整的所以這個物價的上漲大概可以用CPI去處理現在比較大的問題就是我們的基數比較低"},{"start":197.675,"end":214.486,"text":"我們的基數比較低的時候造成我們現在才八百十塊八千一百十塊而已所以農業部也是希望說可以把這個基數再往上調一些那至於調多少會根據我們的財政的負擔會去做估計"},{"start":215.435,"end":218.077,"text":"在這裡跟我們國中也告告一下我們這裡的勞農年紀怎麼那麼大拖累、衰退當無法去做事這裡的後一代也沒有勞累地方來做事"},{"start":231.344,"end":237.69,"text":"中國的護照座室也沒有其他修律,這個牢籠是越來越多,我們都不敢調查,因為這個牢籠裡面,有多少人是因這個牢籠進去做外國的委員,或是主要的生活來源。"},{"start":251.744,"end":279.734,"text":"我們現在沒有這個調查因為基本上我剛才說的 農民退休以後政府有一些厚力的緊貼他本身他也有一些人他繼續在做農業有一些人他如果沒有做的時候他的後代 他的屍髓也來奉養所以基本上不是唯一靠這個8110來生存的"},{"start":280.895,"end":288.963,"text":"我還要再告訴你們哥哥一件事當我生在我們墳林海上我們五姓以上的徒弟都在做事我經常去到我們政客的地方經常看到是大人、野怪"},{"start":297.236,"end":305.439,"text":"兩支腳的骨輪都去換人工的還有一隻四腳骨要去送那個復養宿載我在問他們說你們為什麼會受傷這樣他們說這就是從小做事做到老所帶來的傷痕所以我們實際我們這些農民他們的辛苦付出"},{"start":324.566,"end":336.43,"text":"這是第一次我們來臨黨我在這裡跟各位說我們要求提出勞動警惕提為止過千、九十個一屆提告到委員會一萬兩千個希望你們要理解你們要理解這不是嫁給我的福林是一次性反映這十幾年來累積"},{"start":354.509,"end":365.4,"text":"這個通訪的紀律性的調整其實這是等於制度人群照顧疾群生活的水準這樣看得到嗎"},{"start":367.583,"end":387.53,"text":"我基本上我剛才在去報告就說了就是說我們的農農今天裡面有兩部分一部分就是我們的額度的提高嘛一部分是排富的部分嘛那額度的提高我們也認為他的基數比較低所以可以適度的提高不過藉著拿到多高來看我們的財政的一個負擔"},{"start":388.57,"end":395.254,"text":"再來剛才我們國庭有去講到這個開戶啦所來我會跟國庭有請教我們這個開戶的條件現時是勞動金條的土地到港澳開戶的門檻停留當民國一百年所定的五個月十四年來完全沒有調整過但是經濟我們來講過住宅價格的指數這種期間基礎已經為一百年的七十個"},{"start":418.268,"end":420.609,"text":"我們的資料是從100年開始到現在到13年我們的土地的公告限值已經提高了64.7%"},{"start":434.482,"end":437.003,"text":"所以我們這次修法的過程中我們一併來調整"},{"start":458.548,"end":471.36,"text":"所以我們後續的牌覆的設計也會根據這個土地的公告限值的增值的部分把它納入我們的增加提高我們的牌覆表格 這樣就對了 這樣就對了我請啦 這麼多人都好像坐在一四人大的一間老房子所以因為我們這個房價 地價的上漲給我們林田資產過高"},{"start":482.25,"end":484.971,"text":"而喪失這個津貼的資格這樣結構成為頂端用通貨跟房價上漲經濟弱勢的牢籠去解讀所以我認同我們剛才國庭說的這個國分需要來檢討這個國分需要來檢討要讓我們牢籠"},{"start":504.838,"end":519.639,"text":"給一個比較好的一個高中這樣可以啦我想我們的風雲都大方向都一樣後續我想我們的版本進到立法院以後我們會做一個更實質的一個我們的版本是憲政院的版本"},{"start":520.56,"end":531.447,"text":"對 因為我們的版本就要上到行政院討論以後然後合訂以後要進到院會院會通過再出來我們盡快的請示行政院我們只能這樣講因為院會不是我們的白人我們也是要跟你說明一下"},{"start":540.572,"end":544.993,"text":"一輩子為台灣牛市安全付出的農民若在退休後 制度沒有恢復 而且生活困難政府照顧技術不夠就沒辦法了這些農民辛苦 辛苦做一輩子 我們政府既然有這個退休金的金條 國條銀就應該有更好的機制"},{"start":565.64,"end":567.803,"text":"來規劃現時的總統來調整這個國分 國長有可能你來比較用心一點比較用心 讓我們的農民實在體會到我們政府是真真正正在照顧他們"},{"start":582.521,"end":603.312,"text":"我跟委員報告 委員提出來的39個版本我們每一個版本都把它做了分析然後我們也做了一些研議那大致上的方向都跟委員的版本是一樣的就是那個額度的部分要適度的提高然後排富的部分一定要納入相關的這些土地的公告限值的這個計算的標準"},{"start":603.752,"end":623.827,"text":"所以方向都是一致的 只是說在額度方面的部分一定要考慮到財政的部分那後續我想我們的版本進到立法院以後我們會再跟我們的委員做一些溝通跟說明有好的溝通就有好的結果啦這樣麻煩我們搞定 感謝教委 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝好 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全盤性的跟觀光聚落有關的計畫如果能夠更周延的話看是不是能夠讓來的人提升這件事情收入提升對退伏會一定是好事因為退伏會其實我在這一次在這個就業撫養在這邊看的時候其實還是需要很多的預算"},{"start":156.152,"end":185.191,"text":"那更不要講說其實在未來我知道這個預算今年預算還沒有審嘛所以有一些新興的有一些增加的沒有辦法使用的狀況之下其實退幅會的收入我認為反而就顯得更為重要所以這邊就只是建議而已這邊我就不多說那接下來我想問的就是跟就業媒合因為前陣子我們有到這一個北榮這一邊我們有去這個特別去看就是說整體的這個運作的這個狀況那在這個之前呢我先想問一下就是說"},{"start":186.252,"end":197.485,"text":"以現在退幅會來講因為預算法第54條講的是說新興資本跟新增的計劃要預算完成審議後使得動之因為今年預算還沒有審所以會有一些新興計劃沒有辦法持續針對這個新興的計劃現在會遇到困難的有哪些"},{"start":204.885,"end":225.312,"text":"謝委員我們115年的稅數預算一共有1300多億6000多萬那依照這個預算法跟行政院的補充規定受到影響的呢應該是有4億6000多萬那這當中呢新興資本支出跟新增計劃有9000多萬"},{"start":228.713,"end":256.569,"text":"這大概是這是準備我們在辦理北農新醫院區的前置作業那其他人呢新增支出呢有三億七千多萬那這個都是新增農家的委外照護員啊那個護理啊廚工啊這些人的薪資大概三億七百多萬那也補助農業的發展社區性的健康造物兩千六百多萬"},{"start":257.409,"end":280.97,"text":"那這邊還有一個是龍湖處要徵聘那個服務組長300多萬大概是這些的經費都會受到影響那第一 我逐步來看剛剛第一個你提到的這個9000多萬的這一個是因為要興建然後呢要讓這一個比如說是宿舍的人移過去然後讓那一個土地可以讓這一個北龍所利用是否可以再詳細說明一下"},{"start":282.792,"end":305.749,"text":"這個因為在行政院今年的8月11號有核定台北榮總心醫院區的興建計劃這個是主計劃但是計劃基地就包含了松德的宿舍跟松德的停車場這些都是現在我們同仁在這邊的一些使用的地方"},{"start":306.636,"end":321.203,"text":"那這些我們必須要在其他地方做整修北樓技術大樓跟松伯新村把整修完之後呢這個地方才有辦法移開來所以說這個是預算就放在這個地方"},{"start":322.003,"end":341.172,"text":"我覺得這個是至關重要因為我們之前也常提到比如說醫療量能的問題以及說真的現在我們跟其他國家的合作也變得越來越多在軍事方面所以我們相關的這些醫療的量能是不是逐步也能夠提升尤其是跟國家有關的這個是重要的如果這個"},{"start":341.972,"end":360.006,"text":"地是沒有辦法出來的話因為你如果宿舍沒有辦法興建完成你就沒有辦法移動沒有辦法移動的話這個會連帶影響我覺得這個要讓國人知道因為我覺得這個對我們來講這也是屬於國家安全的一環我覺得這個非常的重要剛剛提到另外這個3億這一個的項目呢是跟照護員有關嗎榮民安養及養護嘛 對不對"},{"start":364.159,"end":387.967,"text":"對 它是在這個我們在各農家我們各農家依據老人福利機構的設立標準都有固定的人力配比那這些配比所需要的照護人力還有都是按照各農家的戰船率來配置人力所以說一定有一個實際上的需求那麼因為"},{"start":392.868,"end":410.297,"text":"這個預算如果沒有審查通過就會影響到我們委外的造福員還有護工和儲工的薪資保障和勞動的權益當然也會影響到我們實際造屋的配比人力品質都會受到一些挑戰"},{"start":411.798,"end":432.396,"text":"這個聽起來也是嚴重的影響因為我之前在這一個看這一個相關照護員的一些影片的時候我就發現因為其實畢竟需要被照護的這個量其實是多的我有看到有AI系統的一些眼鏡就是說可能裝設一些它如果肯裝設的話比如說它跌倒可能會有通知等等之類的我有看到這一套系統"},{"start":433.597,"end":461.994,"text":"這個的確有辦法稍微緩解一下人力但我認為基本上還是不夠用這個你1對10 1對7對我來講這個其實都是太高了所以如果說這個照護的人力如果出現斷層的話這個對我們對榮民的照護這是極大的影響極大的影響所以當然我們是希望預算趕快審因為如果這一個部分我覺得這個影響是立即的是1月1號就可能會有影響所以這個也必須要讓國人知道"},{"start":462.834,"end":478.362,"text":"好那接下來我想問的就是這個就好不容易問到了就是就業媒合就是那個居民這個專長轉弦因為之前在夜報的時候就已經有提到AI模擬面試那一天我們去的時候也現場看了這個AI模擬面試看起來是非常的不錯跟這個桃園有這個他們的系統有整合然後看起來這個問題的題庫還有他的判讀等等之類這看起來是非常好"},{"start":488.247,"end":511.06,"text":"裡面有提到幾件事情前陣子的報告也有講就是說因為我們的居民專長轉嫌的那個對照非常的多然後是逐步要完成然後之前完成了100多項然後看起來說12月我記得是20號吧就是剛過沒多久是12月20另外有300項預計要完成是不是可以稍微報告一下這個相關的進度請我們池處長來報告沒問題 謝謝"},{"start":513.939,"end":517.642,"text":"委員好 首先非常感謝委員長期關心我們居民專長轉嫌這個案子那其實我們總共均值的專長753項我們到12月20號已經完成401項那到明年5月底我還有300多項一定可以如期如質完成 沒有問題"},{"start":533.997,"end":551.743,"text":"因為這個也是需要跟跨部會的合作所以這件事情其實特別的重要因為越快的完成那個系統資料才會夠豐富就像我這邊有特別把你們這個弄出來比如說你是機槍領導士你適合什麼樣的職業然後缺什麼樣的證照這件事情非常重要我是希望能夠盡快再來就是"},{"start":554.324,"end":576.583,"text":"我們現在告訴我們的國軍說如果你今天退伍之後你可以有什麼樣的工作你可能可以做A類的事 B類的你可能需要什麼樣的證照之前就有人會質疑說你這樣來做的話這樣大家都覺得說那我趕快退伍等等之類的但看起來結果是相反的是不是可以跟國人說明一下"},{"start":576.943,"end":593.047,"text":"是 謝謝委員其實我們現在做了這個軍民專長的轉嫌以後真的是有助於他在軍中希望他能夠安定的安身立命在軍中好好長留久用那退下來以後由我們這邊這一套藉由這樣的一個軍職專長來可以順利幫他介紹到民間的職場我們長期以來一直跟國防部做這方面的溝通那現在國防部的長官都非常的認同這對於他的人才招募是有正面注意"},{"start":606.751,"end":626.893,"text":"我們會持續跟大眾來報告這是一個很正面循環幫助我們退伍軍人退後持續發揮人力資源很重要的一個管道謝謝我們在問我們的國軍的時候他們也有發現當他們如果呢他們知道要哪些證照才會好找那他也知道了以後呢他反而留在軍中更久然後呢把這個證照考到之後然後才去"},{"start":628.334,"end":649.68,"text":"做這個退伍啊等等之類的我覺得這個對我們來講因為很多的人生他會有各式各樣的選擇讓他可以知道他在軍中的時候他的信心然後他對於這個以後可能會不會受到照顧這件事情呢他心裡越覺得安定其實對國軍是一個非常正面的注意那就最後還是再提醒兩件事情就是第一個就是因為這個滿意度看起來是非常高但是我們還是希望參與的人"},{"start":650.78,"end":670.011,"text":"越來越多越好因為有些人他不會參與他可能家裡本來就有工作或什麼的但是越多人能夠參與才可以進入到這一個滿意然後進入到這個系統裡面第二個就是我們不斷提醒的這個資安的問題一定要特別注意但是那天我們現場有看過看起來是OK但是一定要持續注意資安的因為這對中國來講是非常值得的資料是 謝謝委員指導謝謝謝謝副主委 謝謝處長"}]}},{"id":"166618","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166618","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60a7fe8508384747ce8f4e93bf07b6087f91760b03f9a190b7f142c201840b90755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:00:24 - 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Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T10:00:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T10:12:52+08:00","duration":748,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.114093750000002,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.586593750000002,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.071593750000002,"end":10.712843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.762843750000002,"end":15.437843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.62346875,"end":50.689718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.66846875,"end":52.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.76096875,"end":78.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.72346875000001,"end":78.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.00596875000001,"end":80.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.06909375000001,"end":81.90846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.72284375000001,"end":84.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.89534375000001,"end":85.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.24971875,"end":85.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.68846875,"end":113.31284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.31284375000001,"end":120.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.67471875000001,"end":122.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.25659375000001,"end":133.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.36909375000002,"end":152.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.45221875000001,"end":145.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.84659375,"end":159.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.55034375,"end":159.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.68096875,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.11534375000002,"end":165.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.45221875000001,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.15534375000001,"end":179.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.31096875,"end":180.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.61034375,"end":181.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.94346875000002,"end":182.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.77846875,"end":187.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.40284375000002,"end":190.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.11096875,"end":191.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.18659375000001,"end":199.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.08409375000002,"end":200.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.58159375000002,"end":208.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.71971875000003,"end":216.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.04346875000002,"end":235.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.50034375,"end":237.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.93471875,"end":238.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.62659375,"end":239.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.75284375,"end":247.24971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.32659375000003,"end":242.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.99284375000002,"end":248.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.42659375000002,"end":259.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.93534375,"end":263.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.46659375,"end":266.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.49971875,"end":283.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.02034375,"end":285.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.23096875000005,"end":291.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.54221875,"end":306.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.76346875,"end":308.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.89409375,"end":309.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.65346875,"end":312.97784375000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太高是多少"},{"start":80.12,"end":104.69,"text":"你心裡面的太高是多少 我告訴你一萬二一萬五我覺得都太高了啦希望部長可以如您所說支持完善老農津貼的權益不要阻擋也不要跟農民作對那我想要請教您一個很簡單的問題你剛才說一萬二或一萬五太高了我想要知道說以現在的物價成本生活成本來看"},{"start":105.61,"end":130.825,"text":"您覺得每個月8,110元足夠維持老農的最基本的生活是開銷嗎沒有 我跟委員報告因為從事農業並沒有退休制度他在65歲甚至於我們也發現非常你現在是在鼓勵大家不要從事農業嗎不是不是 我現在是跟你講說現在從事農業的他沒有一個說像一般勞工65歲就退休所以65歲以上"},{"start":131.345,"end":152.099,"text":"你的意思是說他可以做到老做到死就是他能做就盡量還是上田去做是這個意思嗎我們今天不要自上談兵我覺得你錯誤的解讀 我跟委員報告你錯誤的解讀喔你的心態喔 你的心態這樣一講我就知道了那我現在在這裡算給你聽喔8100元我不曉得你有沒有注意家中的生活開銷你覺得一個月的水 電"},{"start":160.697,"end":182.259,"text":"要不要1000塊假設1000塊好了我們就先抽掉一張然後農村現在大部分是用瓦斯用瓦斯一個月他要燒水煮飯洗澡全部都要用瓦斯20斤一桶的大概是700多那再抽一張你那個是假鈔是不是假鈔啦"},{"start":184.884,"end":208.112,"text":"那假操都可以隨便傻玩具操玩具操然後呢手機網路要不要錢他雖然也許不會上網但他一定要繳手機錢嘛然後再加個第四台差不多網路最便宜要400手機要400吧第四台在五六百差不多還要再1000塊"},{"start":209.761,"end":233.756,"text":"就水電 瓦斯 網路 第四財這些雜誌就已經扣掉差不多兩千七三千了所以抽掉三張 那接下來你知道農民平常長期彎腰風吹日曬雨淋 搬重是他的常態所以慢性病 職業傷害是他的生活常態 不是例外所以掛號費 藥費 護具一個月"},{"start":238.75,"end":247.134,"text":"省省的話我們有健保 我們有農營職業災害保險都可以去支應他們的一些負擔1000塊再來交通費 機車 油費然後機車換車油 維修然後強制險等等包括搭乘大眾運輸工具你覺得再抽掉1000塊合理嗎如果他要加油啊 好不好我們就抽1000塊"},{"start":267.657,"end":290.931,"text":"那這樣子已經算非常節省囉 本席都還沒有算上他的紅白帖 算上他的勞污修善 算上他的電器淘汰 或者有康復的費用等等的生活雜資 這樣存多少 存三千一百塊那3100元 你一個月換算下去 假設用30天下去算"},{"start":292.594,"end":315.827,"text":"一天吃飯真是多少平均每餐一天假設吃三餐好了平均每餐只剩下不到34塊不到35元那我不曉得部長你今天吃早餐吃什麼你有吃早餐我沒有吃你沒有吃好吧那你先省起來那我想要請問部長那你知道現在一顆饅頭一顆饅頭要多少錢嗎"},{"start":320.046,"end":327.211,"text":"一個饅頭看什麼樣的饅頭是全麥饅頭還是一般白饅頭大概15塊差不多15塊那所以假設34塊5買了一顆饅頭15塊剩下就是要買菜脯要買鹹蛋配饅頭你知道嗎你知道這就是我們現在老農的生活水平我很難過的告訴你說"},{"start":348.664,"end":365.422,"text":"我們現在每天得以溫飽就是這些老農民每天努力生產給我們得以溫飽能夠吃的好吃的營養結果這些提供我們食物的老農民反而不得溫飽請何以堪啊"},{"start":371.02,"end":382.656,"text":"請何以堪 我真的學得非常的難過每天能夠提供我們豐衣足食這些好的食物來源的老年農民反而不得溫飽"},{"start":384.298,"end":409.406,"text":"你覺得這合理嗎我跟委員報告相對的所有的農民的福利制度就是在照顧最重要是照顧我們年紀長老的農民但是從數據來看65歲以上還在持續從事農業的人口有將近30萬人所以你現在在意思說他不需要提高是嗎"},{"start":409.986,"end":430.221,"text":"我有說他要適度的提高你現在一直在說明的意思是說老農過著非常好的生活我沒有這樣說是你說的喔你把老農當作一個悲情的工具在操作喔你把老農當作一個非常悲情的工具在操作喔我知道假設"},{"start":433.403,"end":448.647,"text":"老龍絕對沒有操作老龍絕對不是一個悲劇的操作人我沒有要操作我只是覺得他們應有的權益你應該要支持你不應該拿任何的 excuse來告訴大家說好像他過得非常好的生活一個月發十萬塊那是不是很好"},{"start":452.796,"end":465.471,"text":"我現在是在跟你說average我現在不是在跟你講情緒性的事情你不要上頭啦你不要情緒上頭好不好你支持 我需要你支持好 講的這一句話我接受這一句話我接受我再問你一個問題我就問你一個問題嘛"},{"start":468.434,"end":486.792,"text":"你現在是怎樣 你現在是情緒上頭 你要一個月發十萬我想我們也很高興啊川普也說他一個月 他也要每個那個國民發十萬啊所以我現在就要跟你講金額我問你 現在每個月的平均支出是多少 你知道嗎"},{"start":488.869,"end":505.985,"text":"你講什麼平均支出是什麼就是每個人平均支出啊不同的地區都不一樣啊好那以雲林縣為例主計處統計假設是去年好了前年2023年平均支出是多少你知道嗎我不知道"},{"start":509.603,"end":517.628,"text":"2356元然後2011年我相信你更不會知道了2011年的average是多少13696元你知道從2011年到2023年"},{"start":524.642,"end":539.156,"text":"增加了幾倍嗎1.48倍1.48倍我告訴你你不能把老農看作什麼政治操弄的工具那是你心中所想我告訴你我們現在就拿數據我們每次就拿數據講你都把老農當作一個政治操作的工具"},{"start":543.059,"end":548.681,"text":"你這樣子是污衊 你這樣子是污衊我告訴你 你在現場隨便污衊這是對嗎老農是一個有尊嚴的我也希望幫他們爭取尊嚴啊但是你講的 你講的是有尊嚴嗎你講的是有尊嚴 我現在拿數據問你嘛我現在拿數據問你 你認為跟2011年相比現在的物價是不是有比較高我們物價每年的CPI都有在統計"},{"start":571.536,"end":585.302,"text":"是 那所以是不是比較高對啊 有高啊所以我們過去老農基金在4年CPI調整一次4年你覺得 來得及嗎但是我們覺得那個基數太低來得及嗎所以我也同意說同意基數太低基數過低每一次就只調整一點點根本追不上快速上升的物價跟生活成本嘛我覺得你的心態真的讓我很質疑說怎麼會 你是農業反對部部長吧怎麼會要照顧農民的我們提案"},{"start":600.789,"end":608.454,"text":"我們提案你就覺得說我們在操縱什麼悲情沒有我說你剛才的發言不是提案我們的提案是針對現在的物價指數來說我覺得你這樣子污蔑我是非常的不應該你站在這個質詢台上你沒有為老農著想我已經覺得你不應該了所以我現在問你我現在在問你所以你覺得一萬二是太高嗎"},{"start":630.026,"end":653.76,"text":"我說這個東西要看財政負擔好那我再問你那排富呢排富他明明沒有多賺錢他也明明沒有多房子他就是我告訴你並不是所有的老農都是靠8110塊的生活我先問你嘛我先問你支不支持排富嘛你支不支持排富我也支持適當的排富啊我都支持啊那所以你支持的內容是怎麼樣你覺得說"},{"start":656.201,"end":674.166,"text":"排富是多少才合理呢我支持第一個我支持額度適度的提高第二個排富我支持所得適當的提高要根據CPI去提高過去都沒有第三個自住房財產的部分我也覺得應該根據土地公告限值去提高"},{"start":675.186,"end":684.252,"text":"很單純 我都支持好 非常好我想今天有非常多個版本排富的版本其實大家都大同小異但是大家都是支持排富那我也很高興聽到部長說你願意支持排富因為其實剛才我看林岳勤委員他在講他也在呼籲說年輕人 你要呼籲年輕人從事農業你如果沒有告訴他說這個農業是有可能讓他有一個好的遠景的怎麼會有人願意呢"},{"start":705.066,"end":708.007,"text":"農作的意願就會降低啊所以我在這裡呼籲部長您身為掌管農業機關最高的首長應該要理解老農制度的調整跟是攸關整個農業人力世代交替跟產業永續的必要修法那我也在這裡提醒部長"},{"start":726.071,"end":734.593,"text":"農為國本這個基本價值是跨黨派委員都支持的基本社會照顧農民一生看天吃飯擔起台灣的糧食安全這就是本次修法最核心也最單純的目標請你在這裡要擺正你的想法 謝謝我的想法非常正我還是支持所有的委員的一個提案"}]}},{"id":"166617","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166617","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60a3523a0bfceff6288f4e93bf07b6087f91760b03f9a190b7f142c201840b90755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:48:03 - 10:00:19","影片長度":"00:12:16","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T09:48:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T10:00:19+08:00","duration":736,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.54034375,"end":9.599093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.599093750000002,"end":10.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.34909375,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.82159375,"end":17.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.00284375,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.10409375,"end":27.570968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.21721875,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.773468750000003,"end":31.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.22409375,"end":43.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.619093750000005,"end":44.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.17596875,"end":44.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.39534375,"end":105.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.93534375,"end":72.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.47534375000001,"end":72.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.11596875000001,"end":108.08159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.20409375000001,"end":118.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.40471875,"end":128.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.57284375,"end":124.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.55096875,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.46221875,"end":140.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.51534375,"end":141.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.69659375,"end":146.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.92784375000002,"end":147.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.73784375,"end":148.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.17221875,"end":158.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.99346875,"end":159.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.92159375,"end":164.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.47846875000002,"end":162.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.48221875000002,"end":167.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.94971875000002,"end":173.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.55659375000002,"end":173.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.69159375,"end":177.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.50096875,"end":193.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.66909375,"end":182.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.27659375000002,"end":183.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.47346875000002,"end":192.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.00909375,"end":213.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.17596875,"end":206.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.36909375000002,"end":214.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.98909375000002,"end":257.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.74409375000002,"end":216.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.33346875,"end":224.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.63659375,"end":229.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.45471875000004,"end":267.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.30971875,"end":275.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.73096875000005,"end":273.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.97096875,"end":284.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.70909375,"end":278.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.97471875,"end":279.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.00346875,"end":288.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.42471875,"end":324.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.79784375,"end":304.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.66159375,"end":311.98221875},{"spea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部長今天我主要在思考的是老人農民福利津貼這個議題時我認為保障農民生活是要讓農民有尊嚴工作有前景藉此我很希望我們的青年願意投入我想你也是一樣會期待青年投入那這不是福利加碼這是我們守住糧食安全的最基本也是最根本的基礎之一"},{"start":68.32,"end":93.041,"text":"那部長 糧食要安全就要有足夠的人才那有青年願意投入農業我的本業是社工所以長期關注青少年的職癌輔導這會期也在和勞動部一起改善青少年的職癌跟就業我知道有很多青年返鄉勿農的成功案例但我要跟第一線的社工說農業是可被推薦的人生的一個選項我們得先把現實輪廓釐清所以想來跟部長請益"},{"start":95.903,"end":118.63,"text":"首先農業部說青年農民經營準備金是給新進農民18歲就能申請18到24歲而且還特別規劃相關科系成績優異的畢業生可能有價高的準備金支持那就請問部長18到24歲實際申請的比例高不高"},{"start":119.448,"end":138.563,"text":"我基本上大概是如果說現在有資格的大概是900多人然後現在申請大概300多人大概三分之一吧 將近四成那你們有沒有統計跟背景分析依據申請的規則這個年紀要申請計劃的話就必須具備農業經營場域還有符合產業條件部長對於剛畢業的青少年來講這個實務上難不難我覺得"},{"start":149.232,"end":177.346,"text":"要有自己有地比較困難但是用租地的方式是一個可行的因為我們的從農準備金一年一個月給他是3萬可是部長這要有經營場域就是說你要有農業經營場域對 你可以租地但是擁有地是比較困難的是 可是我說對啊我說那如果對這18到24歲的這樣子的狀況裡面這些程度上難不難"},{"start":178.567,"end":192.429,"text":"我想第一個部分就是你要實際重新農業你必須要有技術那你如果沒有地你租地所以為什麼我們在從農準備金裡面一年給他36萬那給他36萬其中有一部分也是希望他付租金能夠實際去從農"},{"start":194.592,"end":213.653,"text":"部長我覺得這政策是很好可是如同我跟勞動部要求的就是我認為一個要照顧到青少年的政策就要去檢視這個年齡層的申請比例才能知道而且這個方案到底有沒有接觸到青少年如果接不到就要調整做出更符合這個年齡階段的設計非常謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":214.113,"end":238.225,"text":"甚至看怎麼去扶植他部長我會這樣子問就是因為我在做青少年輔導的時候看得非常清楚18到24歲的職癌選擇非常關鍵而你們的方案的核心就是要讓新進農民站穩腳步這是非常好的事情所以我要接下來問的是不是有沒有進來是有沒有留下來不是只有進來有沒有留下來能不能穩定在農業職癌當中"},{"start":240.146,"end":267.375,"text":"所以你們的數據農業部106年就定下了10年培育3萬名的新農民的目標到113年已經累積培養了24659人我理解這裡面可能應該也包含準備經計劃的人數那我就請教部長直接回答幾個數字這24659人裡面整體來看的話真正在農業站完腳步的比例有多少"},{"start":268.342,"end":279.207,"text":"我第一個先更新一下數字24000多現在已經是27000左右那流農的比例大概是九成百分之九十就是經過我們這樣子的一個方案繼續留在農業經營的話有九成"},{"start":284.409,"end":303.562,"text":"不會是用什麼樣的方法讓他們今天有這麼高的數據我跟委員說明基本上除了這些流農的準備金以外我們很多基礎建設然後很多他從事農業的時候我們有一些陪伴的系統"},{"start":304.603,"end":331.399,"text":"包括我們試驗改良廠的陪伴系統包括我們農民學院那陪伴系統能夠讓他快速的經驗成長然後有些基礎設施像溫室設備的補助我們也補助了將近五成那最近也是拉到八成讓他們減輕這個經濟負擔所以很多作為讓他們願意留下來那部長進一步問一下剛剛你的兩萬七千多人裡面全職務農的比例有多少和兼職的又有多少這個"},{"start":335.405,"end":360.902,"text":"這個我想我們可能還要再細部的去再提供給您 再麻煩農業部再給我們資料部長農業部自己做統計農業所得平均每戶不到30萬元我想請教的更直接一點30歲以下的青農的收入部內有沒有更細緻的收入統計因為他們要成家立業未來還要養小孩部長你掌握數據你覺得這樣夠不夠就是他們有多少然後你覺得這樣子夠不夠"},{"start":362.002,"end":388.01,"text":"我想委員你剛才問的那個家戶所得的部分特別是青農的部分這個部分我現在手中沒資料但是我們基本上在歷次的統計我們有分大專業農還有一些一般的農家的部分那大專業農我如果沒有記錯的話他的年所得已經超過200萬以上專業農戶的話更高但是您要的18到24歲這個族群那可不可以容我後續如果了解以後再提供給委員"},{"start":389.15,"end":414.611,"text":"部長再麻煩因為如果好的政策我真的覺得要讓我們社福領域的社工在輔導的時候更知道農業也是一種選項讓他們找到他們想要追求的目標再來根據報導部長也說過退儲金的覆蓋率比較低的是青年的農民你們掌握的狀況是青年農民面臨收入不穩農業設施跟機具的投入要貸款"},{"start":415.592,"end":442.695,"text":"20多歲到35歲之間只有24%我想請部長解讀一下媒體引述這句話不知道到底是什麼意思青年農民不在乎最後是否能多領一點他比較在乎的是是否能掃腳一點這句話的意思是什麼這是不是正反應青農的困境青農不是不想存退休而是現在根本就是快撐不住這樣的理解正確嗎"},{"start":444.121,"end":461.831,"text":"這句話應該是我講的基本上我們也實際問個跟青年座談的部分因為退休除菌要到65歲領以青年來講可能30年以後的事情那30年以後能領多少他們在乎的會是現在是不是能夠"},{"start":462.972,"end":478.644,"text":"依他們現在的所得能夠繼續生存下去然後他們現在目前因為我剛才說的他們的貸款因為他們從事農業需要一些貸款那這個貸款的金額我如果沒有記錯的話可能大概是3000多塊左右一個月"},{"start":479.144,"end":499.596,"text":"一個月3000多塊那有的是借了少2000多塊怎樣所以他們要付貸款然後相對的他們吃住不要講了以後如果說再付這樣子的一個退休儲金的話因為他們要繳都希望繳到滿繳到10%繳1%沒意義所以他們覺得說那是不是可以少繳一點政府多出一點所以我們才會設計這個4比6的制度"},{"start":502.157,"end":522.239,"text":"那部長從你們數據上來看2018到2025的那個青農的人口一路攀升這一路攀升的青年人口裡面大概幾歲是投入的高峰因為我覺得要有數據才能掌握到未來你的政策裡面能夠做什麼回應部長你認為為什麼會集中到這個年齡段也就是哪一個年齡段是比較"},{"start":522.879,"end":551.774,"text":"我如果没有记错了我们讲实际从龙走大概48.5万那45岁以下大概11万左右45岁到55岁也大概10万多大概这几个都是比较高峰的都是比较高峰的然后55岁以上都是已经很成熟有经验的农民嘛所以我们的重点就是放在45岁以下但是我们有一个政策我们发现说过完我们支持的青龙他就超过45岁了"},{"start":552.774,"end":563.54,"text":"所以我們現在把我們的所有的政策往上延伸到壯隆就是到55歲我們希望說到55歲以下的這個東西都是受到我們能夠政策可以鼓勵跟支持的"},{"start":563.956,"end":584.215,"text":"那想問一下你們114年後還會持續做個案輔導嗎包含技術啊 通路啊 行銷啊 財務啊那我就想問說你們有沒有做過後續追蹤然後離開的人原因是什麼然後甚至最常見的卡關的因素是什麼因為要知道問題我們以後才能夠去做一些突破"},{"start":585.083,"end":599.182,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問我覺得農民的一個再教育的系統我們有一個農民學院從初級班到中級班到高級班然後特別是現在目前我們發現農業缺乏的是一個CEO"},{"start":601.565,"end":617.423,"text":"就是他有經驗了以後他想要擴大經營的時候他的管理能力不足所以我們在農業的這種高級班的部分我們就投入更多的跨領域的資源來協助他來陪伴他這個部分我想我們農業部門做的一定遠比其他部門還多"},{"start":618.804,"end":647.521,"text":"部长再麻烦你前面的资料到时候再提供给我可是我想今天听你说明我理解台湾农业挑战非常的多也有很多发展的好的机会那最后我想用一个比较具体的情境请你回答如果你今天跟我一样是在做青少年职爱辅导的一个社工或是一个长辈你要去跟高中生或刚大学毕业的年轻人说农业是值得当你的职爱选择的时候你会讲哪三个理由请部长尽量以我们青少年听得懂的话来说"},{"start":648.501,"end":673.156,"text":"我想我如果鼓勵我們的青少年從農的部分我覺得要去強化他的一個使命我覺得最重要的啦那相對的他進來的時候他是有很好的被照顧到所以他未來的農民的福利制度因為我想任何一個人進到職場他會對於他的整個的後續的生涯規劃的一個福利制度我會強調我們"},{"start":674.617,"end":702.125,"text":"三保一新的福利制度是讓農民是有尊嚴的一個產業第二個部分我會讓他們了解說農業的經營不是單打獨鬥農業的經營是一個集團合作的一個趨勢我不會讓你一個人獨自奮鬥我們有很好的相關的支持系統讓你繼續從事這個農業在從事等於說從農的最後一路由我們來陪伴用這種方式來鼓勵他們"},{"start":702.685,"end":727.336,"text":"好謝謝部長也謝謝部長剛剛的回應未來我去跟青少年福福團體跟社工分享的時候也會把你剛才講的帶上可以讓更多孩子們認識這樣的一個行業投入這個行業不過我也要提醒的是像國防部常常會進到學校也會到社福機構做攬柴說明那我也知道農業部有在做那我建議部長是不是也可以積極跟學校跟社福團體合作"},{"start":727.977,"end":736.3,"text":"會 我們絕對會我們還有開公費專班好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝不好意思 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孟凱那我們是不是請我們數位發展部我們林部長林宜靜部長請蘇委員早安"},{"start":15.049,"end":42.631,"text":"部長早在進入我今天專案報告的防詐騙的主題之前我想大家都很關心因為今天一早就發現應該是說一早從媒體我們知道張文的孤狼式的犯罪他籌劃了很久他連續購買了13把長短刀全部靠網購"},{"start":44.092,"end":68.132,"text":"我們在談詐騙的時候就是在所謂的網路社群平台的一個交易行為我們要設斷點希望能夠教民眾市詐 防詐 阻詐但是我們現在又出現了一個議題就是原來我們可以看到張文孤郎市的一個犯案他的所有的一個犯罪工具都來自於網購"},{"start":70.134,"end":93.754,"text":"部長你對這個事情你的第一個看法是那我們要應該跟網路平台第一個你說下禮拜一要喝咖啡要談要談什麼第二個我們是不是應該檢討我們現在這個所有的平行輸入或者是呢小包裹輸入的一個機制政府該不該來好好的來檢討為什麼我們"},{"start":96.596,"end":114.728,"text":"沒有辦法第一時間即時性的察覺原來有這些危險物品是透過網路透過海關透過這樣子的一個交易行為這個SOP到底政府能不能有效的去預防跟嚇阻"},{"start":115.854,"end":123.658,"text":"是非常同意那個委員的看法不過跟委員報告我不是下個禮拜要跟他們談我是上個禮拜一前天已經跟他們談過了可是上個禮拜一談的時候這個禮拜一啦這個禮拜一啦部長你之前搞不清楚哪一個禮拜一不重要重要的是談論的議題是什麼有談出什麼結果"},{"start":139.146,"end":163.8,"text":"對 OK 我正要跟委員報告那就是說基本上我們網路上購買一些物品有些是管制品管制品通常是不能直接購買但是有些就是介於這種有風險的譬如說刀子這種產品那我們現在的方向是說第一個就是說我們應該把這些產品分類有些產品是應該是用實名制或者是類實名制才能購買"},{"start":164.74,"end":189.709,"text":"那我们现在刚好速发部推出一个数位凭证皮夹的机构这个可以用来认证那个购买者的身份就是说到底是谁购买了这个产品然后我现在要提到这个我当然愿意支持但是呢所谓的这个品相的认定除了数位发展部跟其他部会要跨部会的来认定什么叫做类危险或者是需要"},{"start":190.729,"end":207.687,"text":"类管理的这样子的品相我刚刚讲的张文他透过网购买了13把长短刀那他的时间长达一年多那如果按照我们现在国人的安全跟防卫心理"},{"start":208.167,"end":222.509,"text":"是期待政府能夠提出有效的因應方法來防止有下一次的這樣子的一個網購13把長短刀的個案出現是 這個可以從三個方面來處理"},{"start":223.75,"end":251.57,"text":"清楚的講清楚我們有三個方式來處理第一個就是說在對於這個比較危險的這些物品我們那個應該是說在購買的時候他如果沒有做出身份證明的話我就不讓他購買這是一種方式那另外一種方式是說他可以購買但是他必須留下他的那個身份證明資料那到時候如果發生事情呢發生了事情我們的警政單位還可以去搜查那另外一點就是"},{"start":253.158,"end":280.606,"text":"當然沒有人會希望發生事情然後另外一個就是說他如果購買的數量不合常理的話那我們可以利用AI的方式或者是資料匯流的機制我們去查說一般人不會買13把刀這個是一個異常的狀況那我們就可以去主動去偵查那這個事情當然是說是內政部警政署這邊他們主責但是我們事務發布作為一個技術的機關我們一定會全力配合然後主動去找出方法來解決這些問題"},{"start":281.186,"end":306.393,"text":"那這件事要花多久的時間來研擬這個事情如果說技術上的話那我們當然是說馬上就去做的話快的話是半年慢的話是一年但是跟委員報告我是來自於科技界我是來自於產業界這個事情我沒辦法說我下個禮拜就可以就給你這個真是沒有辦法但是我的意思是說你要跟內政部其他跨部會的會議最近一次要什麼時候開會"},{"start":307.762,"end":328.936,"text":"OK我想這個一個月之內我們找他開會絕對沒有問題我們非常主動的第一個我建議禁訴一個月對我們而言對國人而言還太慢了禁訴找來開會把你剛剛講的需要類管理的品項有哪些需要實名制或者是你的數位皮夾制的一個推動"},{"start":330.217,"end":357.693,"text":"你剛剛講的三個方式要馬上有一個結論來告訴國人讓國人可以安心是政府是有效的有積極的作為希望能夠防止因應是非常同意委員的看法非常同意所以不要一個月趕快等一下離開這個會場就趕快跟內政部約談怎麼樣來研擬這個防治的機制好不好好沒問題好那接著詐騙是"},{"start":360.137,"end":376.488,"text":"行動支付有九成人在使用的這個是支撐會的報告那我簡短行動支付分兩種第三方支付跟電子支付第三方支付誰監管我們抒發部監管就是你嘛好我今天就要談第三方支付的事情那下一頁"},{"start":378.228,"end":390.616,"text":"涉及洗錢的事你也知道嗎這個我根據媒體講的最近這幾年來光是就有12344家的一個第三方支付的平台洗錢的案例協助詐團不罰業者洗錢超過800億"},{"start":393.838,"end":406.485,"text":"但是我要根據你們訴發部提供給本席的資料你說你們針對第三方支付涉洗錢都有在積查本年度共裁罰10家業者裁罰金額總計280萬元這兩個數字看起來差很大第三方支付協助詐團不罰業者洗錢超過800億"},{"start":419.78,"end":423.184,"text":"結果我們速發部說我們有在做事我們有在稽查我裁罰了10家業者我裁罰的是283萬"},{"start":428.96,"end":440.087,"text":"跟委員報告這幾家就是我們主動集合查出來的是我們主動發現的所以這個事實上就是義配 旺配大還有台灣禮這幾家都是我們主動發現的不是我們事後發現第一個我要建議你主動發現了那你要讓國人知道這是政府積極作為主動發現"},{"start":451.633,"end":459.418,"text":"我跟你講你沒講沒人知道這是你們主動發現的第二個招開記者會還不夠招開記者會還不夠第二個你們裁罰的金額相對的少"},{"start":474.394,"end":482.288,"text":"這讓人家看起來一個是被民眾被詐團被不法業者洗錢的這個金額超過800億我們10家業者的裁罰283萬元是"},{"start":487.112,"end":511.681,"text":"我覺得這個不符合比例當然我不知道你們的行政裁量權是如何我是建議你們第一個主動的發現第三方支付涉及洗錢是你們主動通報那這個除了記者會之外應該要用各式各樣的方式讓國人知道政府是積極的在打擊不法第二個我覺得裁法的行政的一個基準是不是應該調整這個你們去研議下一頁"},{"start":514.642,"end":532.877,"text":"但是我還是要提醒在你們給我的報告說2024年完成了百分之百針對第三方支付的查核但是你看喔根據媒體根據檢調的查案合法的第三方支付還是替詐團博弈洗錢80億"},{"start":536.857,"end":553.964,"text":"跟委員報告有關這一件就是國生的這一塊其實事實上他在最早112年9月的時候做這個能量登錄之後其實事實上我們有進行過三次的這個行政檢查每次所以是只有行政檢查你的這一句話告訴我們只有行政檢查然後我們把"},{"start":555.404,"end":582.261,"text":"對我們其實是進行要求他的一些限期改善並且把相關的資訊會提供給檢調單位去做一個這個查核然後另外呢這家公司就是因為他後來發現說他這個部分他其實不符合相關的規定他也已經沒有辦法依照我們的限期來做改善他自己來申請廢止這個能量登錄所以他在二月已經廢止能量登錄他就不能提供就是他不能提供虛擬帳號"},{"start":583.722,"end":594.271,"text":"來進行他第三方支付這樣的一個業務然後之後再讓這個檢警調來將他這整個的我們有做情資的一些交換你有做情資的交換交換給"},{"start":597.483,"end":619.888,"text":"已經交給好了那你就講說是你的情資提供給減掉嘛那我們現在要講是合法的第三方支付呢涉及洗錢涉及博弈那這些呢涉及不法的我覺得我們要勇於舉發嘛對不對他原來是合法他如果做了不該不合法的事情就已經不是合法所以國人會對這個產生那個信任的問題啊我最後一個就是要告訴"},{"start":621.048,"end":639.682,"text":"速發部事實上很多的這個信任的對第三方支付不信任或者是常發生一些問題我覺得在正面的這個積極的讓消費者知道說他如何自保權益這部分速發部也應該要廣大的宣傳"},{"start":641.104,"end":663.728,"text":"沒錯 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那接近將近有好幾千億因為我們去年比預算數 時增數比預算數就高出了3757億事實上我的預算數還比這個時增數更高我們一項一項來好不好 你把兩個東西混在一談 難怪他聽不懂嘛我現在就是一項一項幫你撥清楚嘛"},{"start":84.954,"end":112.37,"text":"113年的稅入的預算關於稅收徵收的部分跟114年度的稅入預算稅收徵收部分就增加了3000多億對不對你剛剛講是不是又增加了3000多億預算數先講預算數那所以這個預算數多了3000多億也就是說如果大家都是收百分之百的時候你的實收數113年度跟114年度你就要多3000多億對不對"},{"start":115.352,"end":129.825,"text":"那再來再進到時增數那當然113年的時增數時增很多所以他們才要求那個要發一人發一萬的兩千兩千三百多億啊對不對那就是因為我以前一直在這邊跟你講說你們的預算"},{"start":132.968,"end":152.149,"text":"這個稅入的部分編的太保守估計的太保守使得真正徵收到的數額高於這個預算數很多嘛那你們今年114年從善如流把預算數提高了3000多億所以今年的時增數就不會高於預算數那麼多到目前為止"},{"start":153.09,"end":168.216,"text":"還差一點點其實還有一個原因你還沒有講到啦就是因為台灣跟美國在關稅談判所以你們今年年終的時候有宣布今年的那個站腳稅款什麼東西都可以延後嘛對不對那一部分差多少"},{"start":168.516,"end":185.228,"text":"那個部分就差不多要600多億了所以如果把這個600多億歷年來都沒有這種讓他們可以環繳可以分齊繳的這個東西再加進來今年的實增數原則上本來還是要高於預算數但是大概只有高四五百億啦"},{"start":185.99,"end":206.223,"text":"如果照剛剛的算數這樣算下來因為你現在說會達到98或是99嘛你的估計那我們現在離年底還有10幾天嘛還不到10天但是你實際的收入我這樣給你算一算假設你沒有讓因為台美的關稅談判使得它延緩跟站腳今年的實收數"},{"start":207.486,"end":217.157,"text":"很可能是比今年的預算數會多收四五百億那因為你暫緩了五六百億所以最後你只能夠達到98% 99%嘛我這樣說對不對是的 謝謝委員確實是如此那如果這樣是對的話"},{"start":224.025,"end":250.374,"text":"就代表我們的經濟成長率在稅收上面也是會展現當然稅收是會有遞延效果就像你講的營所稅跟眾所稅分別遞延一年跟兩年嘛因為明年上市櫃公司的公司發股利給股東 股東明年拿到股利他是後年繳個人綜合所得稅那公司竟然賺錢的營利事業所得稅是明年繳嘛所以分別遞延一年跟兩年這個七點"},{"start":253.086,"end":278.494,"text":"多的這個經濟成長率是不得了的成績啊但是會在明年後年顯現出來你的困難是在哪裡是因為他們把統籌分配稅款把所有的營業稅幾乎都撥到地方去就把你挖掉三四千億啦所以你今年的稅入的總預算那一部分扣掉本來是成長因為那部分扣掉所以等於是從三億三兆一千億退為兩兆八千億嘛"},{"start":279.554,"end":292.85,"text":"今年度的這個預算要編來立法院的預算 我這樣說對不對完全是的 就115年度的預算但是你的回答 因為他也沒有要認真聽你的回答啦因為他就是活在他自己已經編好的故事裡面嘛好 你請回座 請主計長謝謝好 請主計長"},{"start":302.1,"end":320.552,"text":"委員好剛剛的對話有聽到啦那現在一個最大的問題喔我跟你說我真的這樣認為今年的預算不可能會省啊今天是12月24號嘛到現在預算還沒有付尾昨天在程序委員會還是給你擋掉啊"},{"start":322.41,"end":335.096,"text":"我們的召委很認真排這個題目就是讓你講清楚為什麼因為他要讓國人知道說這個會對國家造成什麼樣的損害那你認為他不給你省預算最大的理由是什麼你有沒有聽過就是那個那個軍人的一個因為立法院喔用他的法律案搶奪了行政院的行政權"},{"start":351.425,"end":359.465,"text":"行政權的核心是人事跟經費是就是說他規定每個職業經理人他都要給你每個月加薪三萬塊對"},{"start":360.922,"end":386.698,"text":"本來其實總統跟行政院原來就已經有加了加了一些戰鬥價值等等已經加了大概我如果沒有記錯大概加了一萬多塊錢然後他這個之外他還要每個月還要再加三萬塊然後指責說你行政院沒有編入預算裡面所以他不給你省這個預算破壞整個人事制度對啦那其實我就認為這個違憲啦"},{"start":389.083,"end":404.795,"text":"那當然他們過去為了怕被宣告違憲就把憲法法庭的這個用憲訴法把整個職權剝奪掉嘛把整個國家的制度全部都弄壞掉了嘛好那現在五個大法官他們出來做了這個憲法的判決說憲訴法違憲"},{"start":407.236,"end":428.901,"text":"所以如果依照目前中華民國的憲法體制現在是可以申請違憲的審查了就可以申請憲法的判決那條路有恢復出來了那問題是他們現在又說這五個大法官的判決違法他還是不要讓憲法法庭走啊所以我是跟你講這群人是不會讓你審預算的啦"},{"start":430.727,"end":448.201,"text":"12月24號不會審1月24號也不會審啦到下個會期如果沒有特別事件發生也不會審但是我要問你一個我最憂慮的問題剛剛的報告裡面說第一預備金第二預備金跟災害準備金總共有170億都沒有辦法動資啊是"},{"start":451.616,"end":473.477,"text":"台灣過去有句話叫多難興邦因為台灣這個海島剛好在太平洋的前沿在整個太平洋的颶風就是說我們每一年颱風都幾乎都有啦有的從南部來有的從北部來但是很難有那個年度說整年都沒有颱風全台灣都沒有受到風災的那現在又強降雨水災的機會也很多"},{"start":475.083,"end":483.591,"text":"我要請教說那你的第一預備金第二預備金跟災害準備金都沒有辦法動之的狀況下發生天然災害怎麼辦"},{"start":486.016,"end":514.575,"text":"是這個部分所以我們這個部分就是會遭遇到困難的一個部分我知道啦我現在就是說我們也在面對這個困難嘛我很想讓台灣能夠正常運作台灣的國民遇到天然災害的時候我們中央政府可以跟他救助我們中央政府可以給予各種救災各種災難的整頓啊那他現在不給你省這個預算所以依照你的報告第一預備金第二預備金加災害準備金總共170億"},{"start":516.837,"end":535.089,"text":"明年的災害準備是50億那一倍跟二倍是120億本來如果災害準備金不夠的時候行政院還可以專案簽准用預備金來用嘛所以當台灣遇到天然災害除了地方政府要救災之外中央政府救災主要就是要靠這一筆錢嘛"},{"start":537.011,"end":564.054,"text":"那他現在不給你過你讓國人知道說這個沒有過的話將來中華民國遇到天然災害中央政府沒有一毛錢可以花大聲的講給國民聽啦是 這個部分災害準備金的確是一個困難那如果說地方他災情慘重的話那自己的災害準備金不夠資益那就必須要仰賴中央來做資助那到時候中央就是沒有經費可以調整"},{"start":564.815,"end":575.405,"text":"到說天然災害發生的時候他們就會講另外一套說詞喔他不會講說他們不通過預算所以你沒有錢喔他講說中央麻木不仁啦對國人的災害適合不見啦他們將來就會換成這種言詞囉"},{"start":580.464,"end":586.006,"text":"所以你要了解我們今天主席為什麼我認為這是我揣測的為什麼這麼辛苦排這個議案請了這麼多的政府官員來就是要讓你們說出沒有這個通過之後國人會受到什麼樣的災害你都講話都很客氣講說我們就有困難國人聽不懂什麼叫我們就有困難"},{"start":603.753,"end":608.858,"text":"你要跟他講 這個沒有過明年任何的災害 中央政府一毛錢都沒辦法補助國安是不是要共同承擔這個苦難他是影響災害的一個救助啦對啦 我的意思是說 我這個人我偷懶啦 我比較激動啦我要把這個困難講給全民聽我們鄉間國安就不痛不癢我們就遇到困難了 我們就遇到困難"},{"start":629.073,"end":631.336,"text":"如果這樣我們台肥主席今天擺這個議案要給你算命"},{"start":635.578,"end":657.708,"text":"我意思說 你如果真的很痛 要大聲哀啦你這麼說我們有困難 那個不痛不癢好像不太重要啊 我的感覺是這樣子我是說我用情緒的角度來揣測 會不會有這樣的誤解這樣如果造成這樣誤解就很遺憾希望你能夠很認真 大聲疾呼 這不過是國家的災難謝謝 加油 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":662.904,"end":665.2,"text":"謝謝委員接下來我們請賴世保委員"}]}},{"id":"166590","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166590","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d6042cc11c77ed2b9848f4e93bf07b6087fb335d4796f3eb88d574b4901b66d94185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:02:25 - 09:05:34","影片長度":"00:03:09","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra 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各位同仁 大家早修正老農福利津貼條例是還給農民應有的權益與正義本次修正正是為了回應過去被低估的通膨現實也是兌現政府照顧農民承諾的必要行動"},{"start":36.195,"end":59.373,"text":"那第一現行老農津貼的調整機制已明顯跟不上物價上漲的速度近年來受到通膨影響主計處所統計的必要生活支出大幅上升光是民國108年到112年年間重要的民生物資CPI累積漲幅就已經高達13%"},{"start":61.494,"end":83.994,"text":"津貼調整幅度遠遠無法緩解老農承受的生活壓力每4年才檢討一次的津貼顯然是緩不及急第二本席主張提高津貼金額落實對老農的基本保障去年3月本席所提的修法就是本屆第一個主張將老農津貼調整式"},{"start":87.177,"end":102.23,"text":"調整至每個月一萬兩千元目的就是把過去多年未漲未能反應物價上漲的部分還給農民真正落實最基本的生活保障第三 調整過時的排富條款"},{"start":105.253,"end":116.977,"text":"避免錯殺需要被照顧的老農現行的排付條款自民國100年訂定後10多年來未隨物價房價變動調整期間土地與房屋等不動產指數大幅上漲即無法真實反映實際財富狀況也讓過時的門檻"},{"start":128.201,"end":152.42,"text":"製造了新的制度性不公最後老農津貼已經實施了近30年不應該再以暫行之名照顧農民老年農民福利津貼自民國84年實行至今早已成為我國重要且穩定的社會福利制度條例名稱不應該繼續使用暫行兩字"},{"start":153.801,"end":170.888,"text":"制度的定位必須回歸正軌各位同仁本席要再次強調修正老農制度老農津貼制度修正老農津貼制度是補救一個已經不符合現況的制度立法院有責任"},{"start":172.762,"end":186.233,"text":"立法院有責任確保長年為台灣農業付出一生的長輩那在物價高漲的今天能不能保有最基本也最有尊嚴的生活敬請各位同仁支持本案 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謝謝趙偉我們一樣請數位部林部長來 林部長請"},{"start":15.427,"end":36.952,"text":"國賓早安 部長早 部長我們今天針對當然是針對詐騙的問題那當然其實第一個我想大家很關心說過去這段時間Meta的這個詐騙的通報的數量非常非常的高啊這樣的比例那你看其實我們看Meta的營收在這個整個12月預估的話它全年的營收會有161美金在台灣的部分因為台幣大概4957億元這樣的狀況"},{"start":39.352,"end":42.073,"text":"那過去這段時間我們從2025年因為我知道數位部很認真確實有在開罰但是我們看數字2025年5月的時候罰100萬那2025年6月的時候罰1500萬那這2025年8月罰250萬總計罰1850萬那這個數字"},{"start":57.216,"end":79.371,"text":"如果只是單一個人是很高啦但是你針對Meta的大公司1850萬大概還不超過他一小時廣告投放的這個收入所以我想這個這樣子的裁罰的這個金額其實我覺得對Meta可能是無關痛癢坦白說那另外一個問題我想我請教一下到底當初就是2025年5月罰100萬然後2025年8月罰250萬但是6月的時候要罰1500萬中間的過程是什麼是"},{"start":85.788,"end":92.201,"text":"檢舉數量變多還是你們裁罰的標準怎麼改變或是怎麼樣才能夠提升說要能夠把這個真的詐騙廣告來把它撤除掉"},{"start":92.904,"end":121.449,"text":"OK 跟委員報告因為我們認為說我們技術這個財閥這個金額的確對Meta這樣的公司來講不是一筆很大的數字但是我們財閥的主要目的不是為了報復不是說我們缺錢又跟他要錢我們最重要是希望他改變他的行為那我們希望說他不能在這件事情上他作為一個旁觀者他以前收這些錢不管是詐騙集團或者是正常的人他投放廣告他都收我們要求他加入我們所謂的好人隊一起"},{"start":122.449,"end":144.826,"text":"做這個詐騙的工作這個是我們的目標在這裡那效果看起來有限到目前為止第一個我們透過書發部的網詐通報查詢網從去年9月到現在已經跟他們通報超過24萬則的詐騙訊息那他們都請他們下架了然後接下來他們就用這24萬則訊息去訓練他們的AI系統告訴他們AI系統說這個台灣的詐騙到底長什麼樣子"},{"start":151.451,"end":178.13,"text":"然後他們自己主動用AI的方式已經下架超過780萬則針對台灣的詐騙訊息部長其實你剛剛在回應其他委員的時候提到一個很關鍵的重點我也想這邊再提出來其實這兩天不是今天金港會發了一個新聞講說我們全台灣這個社群的詐騙的金額下降但我想實際上就其實是部長你剛剛提到其實我們是透過真的要透過外交的方式啦包含說你就製造跟美國這樣子的國家去反映這件事情"},{"start":178.49,"end":199.231,"text":"是我想最近大家看國際新聞知道說包含泰國軍方包含各國軍方對這個柬埔寨動手是所以他是把整個園區抄掉了包含說這個金流包含他這個機房包含人員等等的所以當然你把這個他的基地這個抄掉之後當然我們整體金額會下降所以我覺得這個可能才是真正能夠把這個源頭阻炸把它打斷不然其實我們"},{"start":200.032,"end":216.766,"text":"速發部我們每天在檢舉每天在AI在那邊搜尋到底有多少廣告但如果能夠從源頭把這個核心的問題把它解決掉的話那可能一勞永逸會比較效果會更加明確所以我覺得部長剛剛講的美術系真的需要透過外交的手段或透過這種外交溝通的方式讓"},{"start":218.422,"end":234.57,"text":"Meta的母公司Meta公司的母國知道他們在世界各地有發生這樣的事情那這些來源到底來自於哪裡這部分我覺得是不是數位部能夠把相關的這個的數據做成這個記錄讓AIT也好或是其他的單位知道這個事情"},{"start":235.037,"end":250.044,"text":"是 這些事情我們其實都有密切的跟AIT還有Meta我們都有些交流尤其是MetaMeta我們一直要求說它一定要必須把這些事情做好然後因為Meta這家公司"},{"start":251.564,"end":273.489,"text":"事實上他的行為應該是有改變最近我們看到一些作為已經比較積極了在宣傳方面他們之前他們宣傳可能覺得說多一事不如少一事我們也是跟他們講說你們做了什麼事情你們為了你們公司的商譽要不然就是像我們今天質詢很多的委員大家都覺得說台灣人對Meta的觀感很不好"},{"start":273.849,"end":296.937,"text":"那我在這邊也要再次呼籲Meta就是說要趕快把這些事情要做而且要做好宣傳這樣子對你們的商業也是會有正面影響的好 部長這再麻煩你了再來就是其實一樣是相關的納管平台的問題其實之前前段時間大家也爭議過這件事情那包含今天的你們的書面報告裡面你們納管對象範圍公布了四家業者七個平台是"},{"start":298.274,"end":306.217,"text":"但是裡面還是沒有小紅書所以小紅書到底是不是說你們要規範要納管要公告的平台之一"},{"start":307.346,"end":331.432,"text":"我們這個納管的那個平台我們是依照打炸專法的第27條我們就是在台灣它因為規模超過一定的規模的平台我們才會納管因為小紅書算是近年來比較竄起的一個平台它還沒達到我們速發布納管的標準從27條到"},{"start":334.594,"end":357.985,"text":"炸防條例從27條到33條都是規範我們速發部如何去納管那個網路廣告平台那這次小紅書是內政部依照第42條那是走另外一條途徑就是在有緊急案件的時候內政部可以直接要求對一些詐欺網站進行停滯解析或限制接取的限制"},{"start":359.446,"end":382.203,"text":"內政部就行文給TWNIC然後TWNIC就去執行那我們速發部是TWNIC的那個監督機關但是顧安宇這個決策的過程可能還是要請教那個內政部沒關係啦這個上次也在內政部大家問過我只是說你們這個行政部門這個步驟你們的腳步不能不一致啦你們是所謂的數位平台的這個監管機關結果呢"},{"start":384.827,"end":412.034,"text":"在公文裡面或在相關的這個警告這個規範裡面沒有提到這個平台那結果這個平台突然中間有一段時間突然有其他單位說它是這個詐騙網站你就把它封掉了所以我覺得這個是比例原則的問題就之前NCCC也講過今天小紅書這個平台就像Meta一樣Meta是個大平台它裡面有詐騙所以我們是把詐騙的那個網頁或是那個帳號把它這個撤掉不是把整個網站把它封掉"},{"start":412.754,"end":441.882,"text":"理論上應該是這樣小紅書當然裡面可能會有詐騙或是有的沒有的所以你是把那個平台不是把整個平台把它禁掉應該是把裡面的某些帳號禁掉而已不然Telegram也是一樣因為Telegram也沒有在裡面所謂的納管業者它也不會它也不可能落地啦 坦白說那Telegram裡面也有很多什麼洗錢的有的沒有的像是之前我們那個兒少相關問題的你們也只是用相關技術不是把Telegram裡面某些頻道把它封掉你不是全台灣的上不了沒辦法使用Telegram嘛"},{"start":442.062,"end":467.528,"text":"所以我覺得這個邏輯在這種網絡社群上面我覺得你們秉持你們的專業你們應該要去跟所謂的主管機關就是隔壁的內政部講說我今天要做這件事情我不是要把小紅書封掉是我把小紅書裡面涉及詐騙的這個帳號封掉才對啊好不好 你們可不可以去堅持一下這個專業是 我會鼓勵 謝謝謝謝委員這個部長請回 部長先請回那我們先請那個法務部檢察司司長 張司長"},{"start":479.335,"end":493.952,"text":"市長好市長好我想針對實務上討論其實今年1到8月我們青少年的嫌疑犯有4.5萬人涉嫌這個詐欺這個案件在市城裡面我想是最多的那另外就是說報案說我們詐欺罪的受刑人兩年內的再犯罪情形"},{"start":494.713,"end":509.41,"text":"因為要兩年內所以100從如果比較完整的數據111年我們再販率這個2581人裡面有599人再販所以比例高達23.2%那你看112年一年而已它再販率大概10%左右所以它比例也快要到兩成了"},{"start":509.89,"end":526.073,"text":"所以第一個我想問說就是到底我們整個法務部我們整個這個檢查機關對於這種受刑人有沒有什麼樣系統性的檢討他們到底為什麼第一個是那麼多這麼多年輕人去犯這個罪那他們是因為18歲以下嘛所以他們可能他們的刑他們刑責也相對比較輕那是不是有集團"},{"start":527.034,"end":556.004,"text":"他們是針對年輕人這部分在招收在招募讓他們去做這個事情以及這種再犯率的部分我們到底要怎麼處理要不然每次抓一抓大家第一線警察很辛苦然後把人抓了然後警察官搬也搬很辛苦把人家抓了進去之後就出來出來之後就去騙包含說這兩天包含說我們去了解說整個監所的狀況監所現在可能很多地方它的這個比例超收非常嚴重但很多的問題就是因為這幾年詐騙犯在整個監所裡面所佔的比例也很高所以實務上來講"},{"start":556.704,"end":572.289,"text":"可能法官他也不想要再把人送進去 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會不會有這個問題"},{"start":574.876,"end":592.838,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問有關青少年犯詐欺罪的部分因為少年犯的部分是由司法院來主責因為我們對於成少共犯的這種查緝也希望能夠強化查緝利用少年幕後的集團"},{"start":593.799,"end":615.351,"text":"那因此針對這個成少共犯的這個情形我們也則由台高檢署要求各地檢署必須要跟這個轄區的這個法院這邊那對於少年跟成年人可能共同犯罪這樣子的一個相關的證據的聯繫機制必須要有所建立那他們對於這樣子的一個"},{"start":616.932,"end":639.998,"text":"承受共犯的犯罪情節要共同的來做一個幕後的這個溯源查緝的這個強化的工作那針對這個再犯的這種情形那詐為條例裡面那針對那個詐欺犯罪已經有提高這個假釋門檻那我們的矯正署呢也會強化這個在監所內的一個矯正的這個相關的一個機制以上"},{"start":640.595,"end":664.916,"text":"我想這個剛剛因為提到說這個包含說我們對於未成年部分他後面有沒有整個集團共犯部分我希望說能夠有比較具體的檢討的數據啦就到底掌握多少還是說是個人個人個人的把車手抓了但是到底後面利用他們的這個集團是哪些幫派也好或是哪些這個組織也好這個是不是能夠請你們有明確掌握之後提供報告給北本席給我們委員會的委員"},{"start":665.476,"end":667.943,"text":"是好那針對那個陳紹共犯數據的話我們再補充給委員這邊來參考好謝謝市長謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"166636","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166636","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60b57a5de9139b0b7d1d90d5b7b1a8c999d81c25c0c566a88a7c5064231c774fdb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:11:57 - 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謝謝主席 我們請林部長來 林怡靜部長請報告委員早安部長早 看副署長也在旁邊上禮拜其實我們省打炸專法的時候有跟副署長有達成一個協議就是接下來要請速發部來加強這些大型平台的網路透明化的程度那當然希望這個我們要努力的監管他們好嗎先請部長承諾"},{"start":33.86,"end":60.449,"text":"沒問題啊這本來就是我們的職責好這個要拜託你們持續的追蹤那我今天要跟部長討論的是另外一件事情喔因為最近這個路透社有報導說Meta為了要維持來自中國的詐騙的廣告商的營收每個每年高達數十億美元可能是近千億的台幣這樣的營收然後呢他們實施了一個白名單的制度就是說你付錢給Meta然後你就被加入那個名單加入這個名單之後呢他就"},{"start":62.57,"end":77.64,"text":"可以這些廣告商就即便他的廣告被AI判定為有可能是有潛在風險或是可能是詐騙訊息但是沒關係他幫你人工審查這就是我們看到的當然我們不確定說這樣的制度是只有在中國還是只有在哪裡"},{"start":78.28,"end":97.132,"text":"那當然我們看到會恐慌說哇這樣的白名單制度Meta是不是在全球各國可能連台灣是不是都有這樣的制度在施行所以我要在這邊拜託部長的是第一個其實在歐洲啊他們的數位服務法裡面我之前也跟副署長討論過很多次嘛就是他們34條35條都很明確說超大型平台你們自己要有系統的風險評估"},{"start":103.015,"end":113.383,"text":"那這個風險評估包括什麼就是你自己認定說有可能哪幾類是有風險的訊息那你自己要做基本的控管嘛然後包括說很明顯是非法的內容你要確保說這些非法的內容他們不會透過你的平台產生營收"},{"start":120.868,"end":140.667,"text":"那這些其實都是數位服務法裡面定的非常清楚的所以我是第一個希望的是我們台灣是不是也可以比較歐洲的數位服務法來跟超大型平台來談說他們可不可以自己做到系統性的風險評估第二個要確保在台灣不會有所謂的白名單制度"},{"start":141.287,"end":158.023,"text":"跟委員報告那個委員剛剛所提到那個路透社的那則新聞是最近揭露的可是他裡面講的是說一份那個META在去年2024年年初的一個報告內部的報告那事實上他自己檢討的報告那裡面所描述的那些行為我們絕對"},{"start":159.264,"end":188.09,"text":"不同意而且我们不允许他那些事情发生那在去年520我上任以后那我们也是积极的跟那个Meta一直做沟通协调那我们都是跟他明确的讲说这些事情都不能再发生所以在我们的努力之下现在Meta他的做法应该都已经改善了就是说您提到那几件事情应该据我了解应该是没有再发生然后他们现在也积极配合我们我们用网站通报查询网"},{"start":188.73,"end":202.866,"text":"通報他們超過24萬則的詐騙訊息他們都是在24小時之內下架絕大部分當然還有幾件被我們裁罰的另外他們自己也主動利用AI的方式下架了780"},{"start":204.267,"end":230.452,"text":"其實我有看到部長的臉書發文啦就是說你們跟他們很努力的合作嘛平台下架23萬折的詐騙訊息然後也跟他們一起訓練AI攔阻了430萬折針對台灣的詐騙訊息現在數字最新的數字已經是780萬折了OK 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感謝委員知道是好 謝謝陳冠廷委員"}]}},{"id":"166634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166634","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d602cfc7d9fa2cba2c9edbd2ae366782b1a91760b03f9a190b773c3e5e214b715b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:45:33 - 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接下來是個高齡我簡單提一下"},{"start":437.034,"end":458.628,"text":"去年因為三峽發生了這個重大車禍這車禍引起社會關注但是後來我們這個政府的一個回應就是那請高齡者現在不要開車然後你們就有一些什麼無障礙公車、幸福巴士、預約式計程車然後現在還在研議高齡的TPAS但是這些措施都是很好的"},{"start":458.988,"end":482.185,"text":"但是很重要就是說高齡者會選擇自己開車重點是點到點還有即時性跟移動的自由度因為我們也漸漸步入高齡了然後如果我沒有辦法達到我上面所講的這些要求或民眾達不到這些要求我想對大家的一個方便性其實還是距離蠻遠的所以是不是你們在考量這個部分說要收回"},{"start":483.226,"end":506.739,"text":"那個駕照我們剛才講的點到點即時性還有移動自由度在你們考量的這幾個政策內容當中你們是不是可以把這個細緻的部分再考量進去這個部分我跟委員報告一下有關於就是說如果說這個未來70歲以上自動腳圍駕駛執照那我們提供這個公共運輸搭乘回饋的那個部分"},{"start":508.62,"end":532.811,"text":"各種運具都可以使用委員這邊有提到計程車補助的部分我的重點就是點到點還有移動的自由度它畢竟沒有像我們自己開車的那麼自由你們現在考量這個東西你現在把大家私有的東西收回要大家都做公共交通工具可是私有跟公共交通工具中間的一個落差我剛才指出的點到點 即時性跟移動自由度"},{"start":533.351,"end":550.55,"text":"那個是不是在你們的政策目標方向也要把它考量進去而不是說發生了一個個案結果你們這個全體本來沒有問題的人到最後大家通通要一起來應對你們針對個案所處理的一些手段但是卻失去了我剛才講的對高齡人口來講有一點歧視的沒辦法"},{"start":554.875,"end":558.658,"text":"達到我剛才講的那三個重點這部分我跟委員報告一下高齡換照並不是要禁止高齡者駕車原則上體格 身體機能OK的都可以繼續開車如果說因為本身的因素沒辦法開車或是自動腳圍駕照不想開車的"},{"start":575.752,"end":599.492,"text":"那這個部分我們分都會區還有比較偏鄉的部分我們大概有兩套這個公共運輸的系統因為在都會區原則上公共運輸比較發達比較沒有問題那在偏鄉那個部分的話那我們現在在193個這個鄉鎮然後總共也有495條這個幸福巴士那這個幸福巴士基本上就是可以預約就是一個提供點到點這樣子的一個服務那針對這個部分的話我們會跟各縣市地方政府會再持續來做這個"},{"start":604.336,"end":625.947,"text":"本席還是要幫偏鄉跟原鄉說幾句話啦我們知道有一些公車路線其實有一些地方大概一天只有一班或是兩天只有一班有的時候更有勝者會這樣子那未來像這樣子的如果有更多的長者透過公共交通工具要來搭乘的話那我想這個部分尤其在偏鄉跟原鄉請你們多做一些考量好不好就我講那三個點好"},{"start":628.369,"end":640.903,"text":"謝謝 最後一個很簡單應該是高速公路局這是一個個案很小的事情但是我想說這邊也跟你們請命本席都會去參加一些運動的活動上一次到南邊我們這樣講好了你們有一個"},{"start":646.389,"end":674.101,"text":"鐵人你們常常會用到國道我想各地方政府有一些山鐵或者是跑步他會用到國道是不是可以麻煩你們要封路的時候你們可不可以在前面找一點的地方讓大家知道說接下來下一個交流道就是要封路了要不然你們一封好幾個一直封我看那天有好多的本行委員也是被封道了後面的那些沒有住在當地他要去比賽的人他被你們這樣一封他會趕不上那個比賽"},{"start":674.841,"end":692.411,"text":"所以這邊請命一下 是不是碰到這樣的情形除了我相信在網路上你們會有公告那但是呢 不是每個人都是參賽者或者是不是每個參賽者都有注意到這個部分所以當我們開到交流道 你直接封下來然後一封 後面全部都封大家沒有地方跑 就是那個"},{"start":693.211,"end":707.468,"text":"可能指路的能量也不是大家都做得起來所以是不是請你們這邊在高宮局封路的時候做一些考量看怎麼樣讓大家能夠及時的到達賽場然後也不會造成太多的困擾好不好 好好 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我們國防部已經給志願役跟戰鬥部隊加擠今年以來不是 我是問你你贊不贊成這一次我們立法院三讀通過的這個公布的這個相關的法律對於軍人加薪這個法案你贊不贊成我們跟行政院的立場是一樣一樣喔 好 那個內政部你贊不贊成我們這一次透過的我們跟警察人士條例的相關的修法"},{"start":51.583,"end":75.953,"text":"要跟委員報告 警察人事條例的加薪的部分我們立場跟院是一致的 而且要跟委員說明所有的加薪必須要一體適用 而不是針對特別的地項所以這樣子特別特定地項都會造成整個公務體系跟運作上面的不公平也就是說你們不贊成啦 是不是我們立場跟行政院一樣立場跟行政院一樣好 兩位請回接下來我們請主席長請主席長"},{"start":82.594,"end":92.905,"text":"委員好 主席長我請教你啦這個立法院以三讀通過且公佈的法律案還有預算提案是否屬於必須編列的預算"},{"start":93.999,"end":115.209,"text":"是我們原則上是希望盡量來編列但是因為他本身他以那個財政紀律法有違他必須要先籌措裁員相關的裁員那第二個所以我們對於他執行的一個部分有滋生疑義所以我們申請釋憲所以這個部分我們以後就是等釋憲的一個結果我們來釋憲請醒來編列"},{"start":120.296,"end":127.488,"text":"其實立法院三讀通過的軍人待遇條例警察人員人事條例這些修正案在114年4月25號就已經總統公佈"},{"start":131.468,"end":152.799,"text":"也就是說這相關的法律已正式公佈生效對於已經正式公佈生效的法律行政院主計總處在預算編列算你還有選擇執行的權利嗎這是你的義務喔你可以選擇執行嗎對於立法院三讀通過的法律你可以違背這樣的一個憲政的義務嗎"},{"start":155.657,"end":176.714,"text":"我們還是一樣遵從院的一個指示那整個一個他對於整個的一個公務和包括所謂的各種公務人員的一個整個一個體制是破壞的所以這個部分呢在人種部分他會做整體的一個考量這個部分我們就會來遵循以上那個署長你的說法根本是違憲"},{"start":179.386,"end":199.419,"text":"你這樣的說法當然跟行政院的說法如出一策當然包含國防部或者內政部對於軍人加薪我想他們心理上的基本態度應該是支持的但是由於行政院不執行所以你們現在又附和說對於這樣的不執行你們說行政院的態度這樣是違憲但違憲不是你們說的算"},{"start":203.561,"end":229.732,"text":"違憲要經過大法官來解釋目前大法官也沒有作成暫時處分所以你們就有依法來執行這部法律的一個義務所以對於這相關的預算的編列上你根本沒有選擇執行的權利你就是要依法編列 依法行政將我們法律所生的支出需求如實的反映在我們的一個總預算的編列上"},{"start":230.911,"end":258.144,"text":"所以你這樣的說法根本是違憲我們是遵照院的一個指示那本身的部分這個也是會是整個一個釋憲的一個結果來做一個辦理在釋憲未有結果前我想行政院的做法已經超越大法官了我想我們依照憲法增修條文第三條第二項第二款規定附議案如今立法院維持原決議的情況下行政院就應該接受該決議"},{"start":261.146,"end":286.045,"text":"這個不是政治宣示啊 而是高度拘束的憲政義務這是憲政義務啊我想所有讀憲法的人都懂這樣的一個道理我不相信院長不懂啊所以主席長 副議被否決後在立法院維持原決議的情況之下是不是只能討論要如何執行而不能選擇是否要不要執行"},{"start":291.248,"end":310.865,"text":"就是只能討論如何執行而不是說選擇說我要不要執行啊要討論如何來做啊憲法沒有賦予你說你可以不執行的一個義務啦我想這個這樣的說法我想我們不能接受根本就是違憲的一個說法"},{"start":312.369,"end":329.589,"text":"我想預算的編列權不可以成為實質否決立法院已通過法律的工具如果按照你們這樣的運作模式已經使立法權淪為形式存在不編列預算已經構成對立法權的實質架空立法院在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":330.35,"end":346.548,"text":"是被迫審查一份未完全依法編列的預算這樣的預算程序完全不符合憲政體制以及我們民主責任的一個政治的一個體制最後我想我也要告訴國防部還有內政部"},{"start":347.609,"end":362.803,"text":"還有主委長立法院通過我們軍警人員的待遇退休福利的相關修法目的很清楚就是在於穩定國家的安全人力保障基層人員的基本生活在法律以民定權利內容的情況下"},{"start":363.644,"end":389.691,"text":"行政院卻未在115年的預算中反映相關的支出以造成制度上有法規且有預算的結構性風險所以不依法編列預算根本就是顯示政府你說要提升國防任性的同時卻對所有軍警人員的努力付出根本是投下不信任票所以我想我還是要呼籲你們依法來編列相關的預算"},{"start":391.551,"end":399.341,"text":"好 署長你請回現在我請教育部還有運動部來 請教育部市長 運動部市長"},{"start":407.276,"end":421.08,"text":"兩位市長我想上週一也就是12月15號財政委員會前往新竹縣竹北市考察國小體育設施與教育建設的實際狀況同時也同步檢視我們中央教育預算的執行落差"},{"start":422.02,"end":447.906,"text":"目前我國面臨嚴重的高齡化少子化的狀況但是本席的選區新竹縣卻是逆勢成長上週以我們走訪竹北新社國小 博愛國小中正國小 興隆國小 東興國小共五間小學走進校園以後我們實際看到各學校提出的都不是豪華的建設而是最基本的體育與教學改善空間"},{"start":448.846,"end":474.891,"text":"因為這些學校的操場 運動場 籃球場使用超過年限都有達到10到20年早已經超過使用年限必須以太舊換新我想如果繼續使用不免會增加孩子運動的風險我們的孩子每天在跑跳使用的這些空間不能因為場地的老舊維護不易而增加他們受傷的風險這個絕對是零容忍所以我請教"},{"start":479.752,"end":507.2,"text":"教育部 運動部關於補助國中小學體育設施過去是否都是編列在我們教育部體育署向下更為報告如果是屬於基礎的運動設施是編在教育部那如果是一些專業運經濟型的會在所以現在你們有做很明確的預算的一個分工所以現在這幾所學校的相關預算是編列在教育部的國教署嗎還是體育部也有相關的預算"},{"start":508.322,"end":537.86,"text":"我們每年都會受理學校來提出有關於基礎運動設施的申請對我知道我是說現在剛才你講你現在這個運動部可能都是對於全民運動或者專業運動的設施的一個補助那這些對於國中小相關的體育設施的補助是現在是會編列在教育部國教署教育部國教署是不是市長請回答一下是的那個一般體育教學用的是編在國教署"},{"start":538.57,"end":564.968,"text":"所以說如果我想了解如果說這一次我看到總預算會看到你們的報告如果說這一次總預算沒有省是否會影響我剛才所提的國中小他的教育設施的相關設備設施的一個補助會不會因為這個部分是歷年來都有是屬於延續性延續性跟經常性的一個設備的一個支出所以不受影響"},{"start":566.912,"end":581.813,"text":"如果說我們有要增加預算的話就會受影響但是目前看來這些都是延續性經常性的所以對於這個那個教育部你也講一下因為現在像這個經費好像是編載教育部對不對"},{"start":582.554,"end":584.756,"text":"所以我在這邊是對於說我們這次考察所爭取的這幾所學校的必要的運動設施的改善經費"},{"start":605.478,"end":632.301,"text":"包括竹北博愛國小爭取270萬新社國小爭取560萬中正國小爭取596萬新隆國小644萬東興國小爭取1373萬這些都是很明確有急迫性的這些整建操場跑道與相關的一些籃球場還有跳遠場的相關的一個設施是否可以納入優先補助名單"},{"start":633.527,"end":636.152,"text":"如果學校有提案的話我們會依程序來審查"},{"start":637.162,"end":663.323,"text":"好 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這個連續幾年大概都是在700多左右的話那顯然在這方面的成效來說呢是很不足的我們來看一下下一張的這個投影片裡面我們有提到我們並不是沒有參加國內外的旅展喔113年的時候我們在9月這個我們有"},{"start":216.764,"end":244.594,"text":"这个日本旅展的观光活动然后呢这个韩国新加坡马来西亚跟泰国我们也都有推广活动那所以我想要问一下我们编列了不少的行销预算来执行这一些我们的这个旅展无论国内外那尤其是邻近的东南亚国家那我想问这些农场是否有因为我们参展让旅客数的这个数量有所增加呢"},{"start":245.513,"end":260.184,"text":"我們有國外旅客的吸引有大概有兩個地方一個是剛剛委員講的就是旅展的部分我們都去參加第二個就是101大樓我們也有一年的我知道 這上次我已經問過了那我現在問的是說我重新問一下好不好114年我們有韓國 新加坡 馬來西亞 泰國"},{"start":271.512,"end":277.638,"text":"這市場的旅展我們的行銷推廣費用總共是多少錢總金額我們的預算數"},{"start":285.505,"end":312.382,"text":"統計完再跟委員報告好不好 我們都有參加啦廢話 你有行銷預算你也不去參加 那不就堵職了嗎所以你一定是有去的嘛那我現在想要知道的事情是說我們既然積極的參加很多的旅展那到底有沒有成效我們要看到的是成效因為我剛剛強調了一件事情如果我們只把視野鎖定在台灣的觀光旅客的話那顯然是極其有限的"},{"start":313.002,"end":330.619,"text":"既然我們也規劃了行銷預算這些行銷預算也都有通過也就代表說我們立法院都支持我們在這些農場上面能夠吸引更多的國際旅客我們也想知道東南亞國家是否有因為我們的參展讓外國旅客的數量提升"},{"start":331.42,"end":357.393,"text":"你們回應的部分有幾點第一個是彰化農場跟台東農場沒有收取門票所以沒有入園的人數跟資料以及本會各農場沒有區分外籍客的票種所以沒有辦法統計遊客數字這兩個部分我希望你們可以改善就是說第一個沒有收取門票不代表沒有辦法統計就是來者是否為外國人士"},{"start":357.893,"end":386.129,"text":"我舉例來講如果今天是外國人他來到我們的農場我們可以給予外國民眾的這個優惠券可能是10塊20塊這個都金額不是問題重點是我們透過這樣的方式我們可以掌握到底每年來到我們園區裡面有多少的是外國旅客然後他有沒有增長的趨勢所以不見得你一定要收取門票才能去統計"},{"start":387.25,"end":416.69,"text":"第二個沒有區分外籍遊客的票種所以沒有辦法統計相關的數字這也是一樣的其實我們去很多國家旅遊我們都會知道我比方說好了如果你今天去泰國的百貨公司消費你是外籍的旅客你可以憑著你自己的護照到他的這個服務櫃台裡面他會送你專門的小禮物他就是一個很簡單的可能成本沒有多少錢的一個小錢包而已"},{"start":417.25,"end":440.515,"text":"可是他就因為你的這個領取贈品的舉動那他就可以統計那你是來自於哪一個國家然後每年有沒有增加所以這個部分我希望退卜會可以用心在這個事情上面就是說我們要統計效益除了台灣的觀光人數之外外國的旅客我們希望他增加"},{"start":441.095,"end":466.73,"text":"所以我們必須要有一個相關的方式能夠吸引他們主動的讓我們知道他們是外國的旅客而且我們可以登記相關的數據所以這個部分希望你們可以回去研議有沒有可能透過一些比如說簡單的小贈品或是簡單的折價券然後可以提醒這些國外的旅客如果你是外國來的那我們歡迎你台灣人也會很認同"},{"start":467.951,"end":496.293,"text":"歡迎你來歡迎你來到台灣歡迎來到我們的所屬農場那我們有小禮物可以送給你但是當然他就是要去做登記嘛在登記的過程當中我就可以非常清楚知道他來自於哪個國家他什麼時候來的那這樣我們每年所收集的這個數據就會非常的珍貴未來你們去做旅展的時候你們才更知道說要去哪一個國家作為我們著重主力的一個發展對象來請回應"},{"start":499.155,"end":523.948,"text":"委員知道我們會這滿好的一個方法好那麻煩你們這個去做一個規劃那接下來比較嚴肅的事情就是關於清淨農場我們發現你們在清淨農場上面有非常多的這個缺額似乎都有補不齊的現象比如說這個觀光行政組的行政助理兩萬九到四萬一西餐三熟然後櫃台服務員"},{"start":525.209,"end":551.976,"text":"然後呢你可以看還有我表演助理哇也是有缺人這個缺額蠻多的那所以我們看一下你們提供的這個本會各農場員工的編制表裡面可以看到的狀況事情是說那退輔會其實有針對低薪的問題去做調整那我覺得這個是要給予一個鼓勵的就是我們在質詢的內容你們是有聽進去低薪的部分確實有做調整"},{"start":552.896,"end":572.058,"text":"但是呢這個我們在這個除了彰化農場的部分是滿園以外其他各個農場都有長期缺額的問題像是武陵農場啊清淨農場啊福壽山等等的那請問一下這些長期的缺額的職缺額的具體原因應該要怎麼來改善啊"},{"start":573.061,"end":594.262,"text":"跟委員報告那切合部分我們都會用短期值待的方式來做補充那因為農場很多地方都是比較偏僻那我們也會慢慢的都在把員工的宿舍做個整修然後有關餐飲提供餐食"},{"start":594.983,"end":609.874,"text":"然後提供餐飲的那個彈性休假當然我也我們也都有發放營運獎金跟特別計較獎金的福利措施那這些都是希望能夠把這些這些員工給留下來好那我們希望這部分可以再接再厘農場的缺額那有這個補期然後可能有代理"},{"start":613.857,"end":632.442,"text":"可是另外一件事情我覺得涉及到交通安全主席再給我一點點的時間因為這個議題比較嚴肅就是關於我們有轉投資的新興客運的問題我們現在的客運當然不只是新興客運但都出現工時長風險高公車客運駕駛嚴重短缺的問題"},{"start":633.422,"end":655.637,"text":"我們轉投資的新興客運缺額的情形也非常的嚴重我們可以看一下從112年113年到114年裡面其實原編額應該要列567人但是平均下市人數是494都400多左右缺額大概就是70萬去年就比較多一些113年比較多到90"},{"start":656.818,"end":683.926,"text":"那114年因為只統計到10月而已也是有70幾所以我們這三年的缺額人數都在70以上那是否關於新聞有講到勞動條件的部分導致徵人困難他是針對全台北市的這個公車司機來做說明喔那我想要請問一下就是新興客運當然是我們這個推不會轉投資的事業那在這個部分有缺額他會影響到的有可能會是市民朋友的安全"},{"start":684.406,"end":700.521,"text":"因為當人數不夠那他可能勞動條件他可能在這個工時上面壓力等等的比較大的時候我們都不希望哪一天出現比如說新興客運然後可能有撞到人等等這樣的一個事情所以我想最後問一下副主委"},{"start":701.141,"end":715.512,"text":"在新興客運駕駛缺額一直以來都有70到90人的這個部分我們有怎麼樣的一個改善的機制那我們有沒有一個計畫比如說明年我們可以改善多少請詹要回答"},{"start":716.652,"end":742.653,"text":"我們公司其實都有按照台北市政府的要求把不管數位化也好啦或是排班精準的排班或是提升人力的運用或是彈性的來招聘臨時補充的人力那對駕駛的輪班工時其實都按照法規在走那這個我們會請公司針對剛剛委員所講的再提出更精進的做法把他的確認數一直收到10%"},{"start":743.894,"end":750.283,"text":"以內好希望10%作為一個目標那希望明年齁那在這個時候可以達到你的目標好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166625","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166625","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60d614ff8b553121b199d297ff50ba03de91760b03f9a190b70daa424a73b7f4fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:27:45 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該訂房的也訂房了啦那你這個通通都找人辦好了那我們這種突襲式的把它否決掉的話你不僅去影響到選手的權益啊也損及到我們推動運動觀光的一個誠意啊那對他來講"},{"start":196.893,"end":201.898,"text":"所以市長你就很清楚了對市長來講的話對旅宿業者來講的話是二次的一個傷害原來的一個房間就要空出來沒有新客人去做一個地補的話那未來我們是不是有辦法來更主動更提早的預警讓我們在進行程序上的一個保護現在的一個保護避免類似的情況來做發生簡單來做一個回應好不好"},{"start":222.675,"end":243.593,"text":"跟委員報告就是講到這個案子的一個部分的話基本上大概前置程序大家有一點這個誤解啦因為第一個部分的話就是說入權申請我們有一個入權申請的一個這個規定那我想這個案子所衍生出來的一個部分的話我們後續也請我們各分局去做一個檢討"},{"start":244.614,"end":272.104,"text":"然後也很明確跟各個所在地的這些相關體育協會有關於連續假期辦賽事這個部分的話我們這個就是很明確說明這些主要幹道都是輸運的這個部分的話在連續假期的過程當中原則上我們是不提供這個路權的我想把這樣子的一個訊息明確化之後那未來大家就比較不容易產生這個誤解"},{"start":273.124,"end":292.258,"text":"我要跟你說的是說,2026年剩下六天要跨年,跨新一個年度了你去看我這樣手機一把它打開以後,2020年有九大連假啦不管是勞動節、端午節、中秋節、光復節、行限紀念日,這些都連假耶那如果像我們今年這樣處理的一個方式的話,這個對地方衝擊會很大啦"},{"start":297.247,"end":321.502,"text":"我也知道說溝通很重要但是你觀光旺季跟大型賽事你如何去做一個共存的問題喔我們要把它否決掉就很簡單 怕人家驕傲我就都不要住你就好了但這個就可惜了你去看看喔 你去看日本你去看新加坡你看日本沖繩環自行車賽它也是秋天旅遊旺季去辦的他們的路也沒有比我們大一點"},{"start":322.699,"end":337.416,"text":"人家判明有辦法做到啊比如說他算準了車隊幾分道車隊來了裁縫路車隊一過馬上放行對交通的影響他就把它壓縮到最小我們現在不是我們現在怕麻煩怕他車乾脆說全部都不準"},{"start":338.357,"end":357.578,"text":"這不好另外你去看新加坡你去看倫敦他們嚴格的去執行路段的一個管理那主辦單位承諾幾點幾分將道路歸還給城市選手在規定時間沒有完賽的話必須要搭上收容車確保道路準時開放給一般的民眾回頭過來看我們自己"},{"start":358.649,"end":381.167,"text":"可惜啦 由於對發動這樣 你這樣不行啦新加坡 日本 沖繩 你如果去過去 找時間去走走看看人家就是這樣搬啊 人家做得到 我們做不到了路就沒必要我們比較大條啊最輕鬆的方式就是我們去把它禁止 不能只有禁止啦高通柏林部到要去海域 運動觀光 振興地方 市長不是嗎 20秒給你"},{"start":388.197,"end":411.316,"text":"因為還是光光我們要兼顧但是這幾個案子其實如何兼顧這個我們再來想想看因為他剛才特別提到輸運就是輸運的尖峰的路段是在哪裡可能會影響除此之外是不是可以在連續的假期如何配合來辦理等等這個我們再來想想看"},{"start":412.077,"end":427.945,"text":"我也知道說 準備好之後 大家我也知道公路局要顧安全啦警察跟公務段的同仁都很辛苦啦 大家又扛責任 這我們都懂啦但是如何用比較科學化的 還有去管理的一個方式來做一個兼顧啦 好不好最後我要請教一個問題 就是說我給你看一下 來 你看你這個"},{"start":436.042,"end":445.246,"text":"這個你知道嗎這個隔熱紙的這個幾%你知道嗎 黑色色的這個給你看幾%10%這個10%這個幾% 比較清楚了喔這個20%越來越清楚了 怎麼煙光濕了 這個幾%30%這個幾%50%越來越清楚了嘛"},{"start":466.172,"end":491.73,"text":"我真的有做功課這幾%70%我的意思就是說我們現在很多的業者我們要修法就是說這個整個隔熱紙的透光度跟安全的一個問題那為了隱私或者為了怕熱民眾很多人就去加裝這個隔熱紙那重點就是說"},{"start":492.31,"end":496.232,"text":"我們很擔心的就是整個交通的安全我看去年發生在台中這樣的一個案例台中港計程車墜海的一個事件就是說夜間大雨 低能見度搞不定造成車內四個人死亡調查的結果就是擋風玻璃隔熱時可見透光率只有47.5"},{"start":515.484,"end":542.907,"text":"那我們交通部這個地方啊我們也看到這樣的一個問題啦但是隔日子這樣的一個漏洞啊我們是從2026年起才要針對新車來 入法來做一個納管來做一個納管但是我比較擔心的就是說五檔五檔不知道檢查一概念咧你2026年以後新法上路日出可是這個可能看起來你們也不會去溯及回溯嘛"},{"start":544.266,"end":547.228,"text":"也不會回溯啊你像這樣 這個美意啊你說前面的不回溯好 那我們也告訴民眾說你盡量不要打到黑色色對你的安全真的是很危險的宣導我們要做啦但是新法上路以後啊你這段時間你如果沒有提出一個行政措施喔比較強力去做一個選擇喔"},{"start":565.799,"end":569.406,"text":"我也有些人像現在有些人賣新車就告訴你啊快賭 賭五十十喔或是我就 我就驗車驗刷之後驗刷 我怎麼開始來賭你以後要怎麼處理"},{"start":581.914,"end":605.072,"text":"跟委員報告就是說在這個今年6月30號這個公務局那個指引出來之後那確實我們了解有一些地區性的經銷商有這樣的部分但是在同時我們各區建立所我請我們各區建立所同時拜訪在地的經銷商去跟他們講這樣的觀念所以現行各廠牌的經銷商基本上大概都配合交通部"},{"start":605.532,"end":617.016,"text":"的一個這個政策在其實現行法規還沒有強制實施之前在於這個因為很多新車都是透過業帶這樣子幫忙裝那他們在經銷體系裡面就是透過這個業帶都這個提供給民眾說以後前檔應該要裝70然後提供合格就是說目前有這樣子產品讓他們來做安裝我聽你的詢問我就知道你也已經發現到這樣的一個問題了"},{"start":631.32,"end":636.184,"text":"那既然發現問題以後,我希望我們公路總局這個地方,我們交通部這個地方,政府還是多做一點啦,還是要跟他們說,說我這個真的是為了安全,你走這裡,你不要撒這個去做你的行銷的一個借口啦,你加強去給他宣導,甚至於你們應該有更多的官方的一個說明啊,或者業者的一個教育啊,的一個措施出來,"},{"start":656.101,"end":663.386,"text":"我們也要跟經銷商做一個合作大家做回來 要不然我都很擔心你說一般民眾 我走路我衝得比較歐格熱的一個效果會更好 我為了隱私我為什麼要跟他們歐索索你就要發布這樣的一個我們修訂這樣的一個法令以後以後你那個整個檢查或者去取締的能量又少就會把這個美意打折了"},{"start":686.512,"end":693.68,"text":"凸顯到的人 你如果不先做這個算命 民怨又起來啦所以這一點我希望我們交通部 我們公共總局有更多的一個作為 好不好好 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站長委員先進列席的總監事長官員會長公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼因為今天要問的問題很分散我先預告一下有哪些部門先準備包括主計總處經濟部 交通部 勞動部 衛福部但是不用一下都上來我會先預告那有下一題會問到的時候再會請還有教育部跟運動部好"},{"start":31.798,"end":51.633,"text":"那麼首先請主席總處陳主席長然後衛福部請準備好那剛剛這個郭委員這個中委員有點到名的就依序上台準備好來先看一下剛剛郭委員說的好不是本院不是大院是國民黨民眾黨造成的那我們早來收攬攤子來這邊說到"},{"start":54.161,"end":80.627,"text":"因為衛金審議部的動資的影響這麼多那這裡面呢包括一倍金二倍金那現在我們看到了你們的報告寫的主計長整體貨配財源低於今年度的排名第一的就是屏東縣對不對那你的說法是什麼那這種情況之下怎麼辦要他舉債因應嘛你是不是叫我們要舉債因應我們屏東已經夠財力夠差了要舉債除了舉債有沒有其他的方法"},{"start":82.213,"end":108.593,"text":"因為屏東它整個是負28啦妳說多少 負28嘛對 然後第一個它會碰到的一個年關的調度年關調度 薪水能不能發得出來就是年關調度就是所謂的薪水包括年關獎金那我問一下因為題目很多我先問一下我們除了借錢之外我們有沒有辦法像過去人家說窮人家的孩子懂得上進"},{"start":109.494,"end":125.406,"text":"因為沒有錢補習會特別自己K輸我們以前都是靠競爭型計畫請問我們明年還有競爭型計畫可以去努力來補這些缺口嗎不是 競爭型計畫也是要看當然啦 我們如果不夠好也是沒有嘛那請問競爭型計畫明年有變少嗎"},{"start":130.602,"end":144.449,"text":"是有少啦對嘛所以你看我們除了舉債想靠自己努力去參加競爭型競賽看競爭型計畫看我們表現好一點可以多拿到結果整體的競爭型計畫也縮水嘛好來下一個我們請衛福部來委員長市長是很高興看到你可是我們心情很難過社安網2.0我們看到這些經費少了多少本來是預併400億耶"},{"start":158.891,"end":181.999,"text":"我們本來今年要明年要增加819億對不對我們新增的現在這樣子現在都沒有了嘛還能只能400億嘛我們去年我們這些從事的社區的人員他們是不是需要加薪需要啊我們這個擴充的經費年資升了專業提高了要給他加薪嘛人事要提高嘛我們的拓點這些社區的點我們覺得很好要拓點"},{"start":183.137,"end":185.781,"text":"有辦法拓嗎沒有辦法拓嘛增額本來名額有限我們在排床位在等名額結果呢你們明年要擴充一倍以上現在沒了我們是不是增額也沒了"},{"start":196.164,"end":221.983,"text":"報告委員就是說如果真的預算沒有審查的話那我們就是照原來今年度我們不能超過所以要新增的要擴增的沒有辦法做所以我們要新增的服務對象獨居老人新手父母近貧人口受影響侵害的暴力者這些我們都沒有辦法照顧新增的會沒有辦法做原來的我們寄望原來的人他可以加薪他可以拓展他可以增加名額也都沒了他要增加的我們只能照原來現有的除了這個之外還有下一個影響醫療跟健康"},{"start":225.091,"end":240.687,"text":"我們去年我們要這邊本來要做的是什麼五大核心要強化藥品原料生產製造儲存及智慧調控能力就是要怎樣藥物韌性是因為我們自己國內的藥品供應是相對脆弱的是的今年有一些缺藥的問題對不對對明年有辦法改善"},{"start":241.548,"end":246.111,"text":"我們想辦法但是其實整個體質上就是藥品供應鏈的整個體質還有我們自己國產藥品甚至還有我們整個Peer Center就是整個供應的這個我們有一個供應中心這個部分都在新計劃裡面所以如果沒有審或沒有過我們就沒有辦法做我們的可能缺藥惡夢會再出現囉"},{"start":258.058,"end":281.76,"text":"我們當然盡量想辦法能夠維持我們的供應可是也報告委員我們很多自己國產藥我們必須要去輔導我們自己來自己做不然全部靠國外的話廠商一不給我們就沒有了所以很重要要省不省可能明年今年遇到的事情明年會繼續發生好 那麼勞動部請準備報告委員這是非常重要的一個我們的藥品供應韌性體質的改變真的拜託大院支持好 衛生部還有一題來往下看"},{"start":283.522,"end":295.123,"text":"我說今年考上明年入學無望啊健康台灣是我們賴總統的深耕計畫第一階段今年呢 這些單位 屏隆 屏機 衡旅"},{"start":296.144,"end":323.766,"text":"布平、安泰、福音、訪療醫院、保健這些物理治療師公會他們都在今年被你們評審通過了明年可以參加這個計畫對不對那如果錢沒有省明年他們可以參加嗎有錢可以給他們嗎我們生根計畫的話因為它是四年它也是一個延續但是我們大概就不能再擴增那也不敢確定說能夠持續原來的一個案子可以繼續做所以我們看到這個計畫我們很開心我們要去考"},{"start":324.526,"end":349.748,"text":"結果 榜單公佈說我們考上了 明年可以入學可能明年的預算額不夠分配 是不是這樣我們會擔心接下來沒有辦法延續今年考上 明年入學無望謝謝 次長 我們現在看勞動部部長 現在還有一題 沒關係來 先問勞動部 來生育補助 十萬新生兒的公托 沒了嗎我們請教兩個部這些對象 十二萬胎的新生兒的家庭本來要補足到十萬的勞動部"},{"start":351.874,"end":371.22,"text":"有辦法嗎你們勞保的部分是最少的不是說人數最少是人數最多但是相對金額是比較不足10萬的我們大概有快31的經費是沒有辦法執行所以這10萬人的勞工朋友他們就辦法補到10萬衛護部你們哪些要照顧"},{"start":372.649,"end":393.78,"text":"國保我們就是對這邊就是國保或原來國保沒有辦法納進去的我們希望說他在生育補助全部都拉到拉到10萬那因為這是新興計畫所以如果這次預算沒有省這個部分沒有過的話我們沒有辦法做這個好那另外你們補助地方政府的公共托育對屏東縣本來有三個公托是不是也沒了呃我們這邊公托的預算如果是這樣的話也會受到影響大概有40億"},{"start":395.262,"end":402.05,"text":"OK 好 我們很心酸經濟部接下來問經濟部還有後面交通部再來是教育部來 經濟部請教一下我繼續講你們一邊聽 次長"},{"start":404.229,"end":429.648,"text":"我們看到了我們看到原來的這些明年的年度的業務預算本來是在特別預算當中的8年800億後來治水預算結束後你們把它轉成常態性的業務經費但是也是屬於新增的所以如果說今年沒有省這些原來在已經結束的治水預算要回歸到我們業務單位來編的是不是就受到影響"},{"start":431.448,"end":459.453,"text":"是不是這個115年度因為你們這些就是把原來延續原來治水計劃嘛那這個還有沒有那個是屬於新興計劃所以還是要請院裡面通過之後所以嘛除了特別預算原來在我們的8年8年的那個前瞻計劃我們要把它長年度的業務計劃結果他是新興所以也沒了是我們牛浦溪排水中林排水治理今年淹水的明年是不是命定要繼續淹"},{"start":461.674,"end":482.826,"text":"我們還是要趕快來通過這筆預算我們趕快來做治理的工作所以我們看到中央政府在過去的前瞻八年的前瞻計畫當中到去年結束後明年要轉入到我們的年度計畫但是也是屬於新型計畫如果預算沒有省 明年這些錢沒有我們屏東的鄉親要繼續淹水是不是很可憐是"},{"start":485.404,"end":497.851,"text":"好 我們往下看來 交通部高屏二塊來 TPUS我就不用講了很多人講了南高屏我們的通行有8.5萬人受影響11億那這個東西像第二塊"},{"start":502.393,"end":529.411,"text":"我們本來預計明天要動工了沒辦法執行沒辦法執行了沒有 沒辦法執行市長再講一次我要讓屏東鄉親知道如果說屏東籍出身的國民黨的立法委員包括部分區的民眾的立法委員如果蘇清泉 如果林國成他們不省今年的預算明年 屏東東西江二塊就沒有了 是不是這樣子來 我跟委員報告高屏東二塊它屬於新生計畫所以如果大園這邊沒有審議通過我經費沒辦法動資"},{"start":532.634,"end":551.995,"text":"所以說我們不曉得何年何月但是一定會延宕至少延宕一年以上一定延宕如果這樣一定會延宕好 謝謝我們繼續看我們教育部跟運動部來有一個廣告這個市長是你有沒有看過烏柏的廣告有"},{"start":552.694,"end":579.31,"text":"有的點得到有的點不到眼藥水點得到眼淚點不到我最近常看的廣告我看看我們現在如果這樣不省預算的話薪水領得到但是校舍修不到是不是這樣子你們國立大學的耐震補強15億高級中學國立的高中的這些3億我們屏東有沒有國立大學有沒有國立中學有那如果這些預算不省薪水有沒有照領但是校舍有沒有辦法修"},{"start":580.305,"end":609.13,"text":"沒有辦法 因為這是我們新興計畫我們預計五年內要來完成150來 運動部市長在嗎 來 好 市長辛苦你啦來 我們很關注運動賽事我們努力的屏東在打造一個運動大線如果說運動部長明天的薪水領得到 領不到那不是新興計畫啦運動部雖然是新的部會但是部長的薪水是照領啦但是這些賽事能辦嗎"},{"start":610.591,"end":624.822,"text":"報告委員 那個部分當然就很可惜所以說啊 薪水領得到 校色秀不到運動 比賽 辦不出來好 再往下看來 經濟部 對不起又讓你們上來了經濟部來 最後一項了 時間關係來本席在上週才成立一個台灣與亞太國會無人載具聯盟"},{"start":635.273,"end":659.27,"text":"目的就是說這幾年來我們看到無人載具新興發展我們政府也積極在推動對不對無人載具不是軍事國防才用得到啊各行業都用得到啊 是不是是那現在如果這些計畫受到影響那我們是不是無人機到處用得到買不到 會不會這樣也沒辦法動吃這一筆預算所以說今天我很沉痛的剛剛請了幾個部會來我要跟我們屏東的鄉親全體的國人說明"},{"start":664.654,"end":670.617,"text":"如果立法院國民黨跟民眾黨堅持不省預算明年我們國民的待遇就是這麼慘謝謝謝謝鍾委員接下來我們請羅明才委員"}]}},{"id":"166622","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166622","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d6061db2051feb6f1c499d297ff50ba03de91760b03f9a190b766f832c32d1c01905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:15:59 - 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麻煩副主委"},{"start":7.247,"end":34.466,"text":"那各業管單位要上來補充協助的都可以執行上來好 副主委我們今天特別請了各農場廠長還有我們事業處的單位來報告相關的營運績效還有他一些產品的介紹當然這個都蠻不錯的但我們還是我們如果把全民當作退輔會的股東因為我們是國家的單位那我們就要來看經營的狀況基本上我把它"},{"start":35.98,"end":50.605,"text":"簡單合併分成三個領域第一個就是說這個農場的經營績效好或不好呢我會橫向的比較就我們都是農場我們橫向比較績效有高有低低的為什麼高的為什麼找出原因"},{"start":51.345,"end":66.913,"text":"第二個呢年度的縱向的比較我今年跟去年比或者這三年來比比較一下這個趨勢到底經營上有沒有出問題或者有沒有值得強化的地方這個是比較的部分那比較的範疇呢大概就是"},{"start":67.913,"end":83.646,"text":"有時候兩個來比 八百十八歲大小很不一樣嘛就是條件的差異 有的是地理位置有的是天然條件 有的是交通的便利性這個是我們沒辦法改變的 這是條件的比較第二個是經營內容的差異"},{"start":86.568,"end":101.897,"text":"我賣的產品每一個單價就比較高我另外一個經營的產品單價比較低我賣一萬件還不如他賣一件這種產品服務的內容的差異第三個比較的範疇是就來到我們經營者經營管理的差異行銷啦"},{"start":108.081,"end":134.538,"text":"人力啦成本控制啦定價的策略啦這三個範疇加上自我比較跟橫向比較我們就來找問題了我大概這個方式先讓副主委還有我們處長先了解所以我們來看我整列幾個表武林農場這五年來的營運績效我們可以看到他的17%投報率來看我先抓投報率啦那"},{"start":135.419,"end":145.772,"text":"一直到2025年11月為止這個橫向比較跟其他農場來比呢不差坦白講屬於中前段"},{"start":147.13,"end":175.269,"text":"但是如果你特別注意到今年來看它是往下下滑如果這兩年來看呢跟2023年來看的話我們的遊客人數呢減了差不多35%到40喔這個可以說相當顯著那我們再來看清淨農場清淨農場是我最想問的清淨農場其實知名度最高可是清淨農場的橫向2025年的橫向的比較呢坦白說不佳是4.22%的投報率"},{"start":177.59,"end":191.142,"text":"那你如果仔細看他的旅客人數從2023年的13%到2025年的4%多其實旅客的人數下降了大概20%左右"},{"start":193.144,"end":210.597,"text":"人數下滑 年度大幅下滑從十多趴掉到四趴喔而且那個很特別就是人數少了二十萬從八十六萬掉到六十一萬可是我的營業績下滑的比例比人數高很多"},{"start":211.738,"end":234.515,"text":"就表示說來的人沒有減少那麼多但是我的營收減少比較大這到底為什麼如果再看福壽山農場呢橫向比較今年5%多而已坦白說不佳那年度來看從去年20%掉到今年只剩5%多大幅下降台東農場是我另外一個最想問的他為什麼"},{"start":235.939,"end":260.076,"text":"績效這麼好 是基期太低還是怎麼樣 就是他的投報率喔 都190幾 140幾 148%這經營的奇才啊那要不然就是他的基期的計算可能跟別人不一樣否則不可能好這麼多那年度也大幅上升所以台東農場如果計算方式跟大家都一樣這個廠長應該要拉上來當處長"},{"start":264.352,"end":287.353,"text":"就是他經營績效這麼好啊都破百但是他遊客人次沒有統計給我我沒辦法獲知這個是為什麼那彰化農場呢他的橫向比較中等那彰化農場我知道他可能還要監管其他地方的土地啊什麼的他經營績效橫向比每年都是8% 5% 7%這樣子大概算中等"},{"start":287.893,"end":297.319,"text":"那今年度跟去年度比也上揚啦好我現在摘要說明完了請教副主委就你了解為什麼有的下滑這麼嚴重"},{"start":299.332,"end":317.844,"text":"你們有沒有研究或者處長這邊先為我先講完然後再請處長做補充那確實我們三個高山農場的旅遊人數都有下滑那下滑的原因當然也就是這兩年呢其實是受到強降雨"},{"start":318.664,"end":345.146,"text":"還有颱風的這些影響那個不管你從宜蘭上去還是從台中往台14號上去其實交通是經常被管制的那管制交通確實造成我們有很多的一些讓大家沒有不願意上山去做高山的一個旅遊這是一個很重要的因素那當然我們在這個"},{"start":349.168,"end":372.896,"text":"這個清淨農場的營收下來的部分呢我們過去呢比較靠門票的收入啦那這個我們要改進這個地方我們必須要再去開發其他的副主委其實你這樣回答我可以理解颱風啊交通中斷但你沒有回答我的問題因為我有橫的比較跟縱向的比較你說清淨靠門票"},{"start":374.116,"end":395.01,"text":"他每年都靠門票啊那為什麼這五年你如果仔細看他的下滑度齁他整個掉下來的速率其實很顯著為什麼這年營收特別有問題除了客觀條件你說颱風就好了台東那裡也有颱風啊可是台東營收爆表欸到百分之一百九十幾他那裡也有颱風也有道路中斷啊"},{"start":396.328,"end":418.369,"text":"所以為什麼 有沒有什麼是我們可以改善的因素有沒有房舍老舊啦 或者經營方針出問題啦造成我們這五大農場 其實有三個它的營業是往下掉的你們有沒有抓出真正的原因如果我還要再細分的話 我應該按季來分因為颱風季節好發在第二季第三季嘛"},{"start":419.19,"end":431.559,"text":"我如果按計來分就可以抓出新的問題所以那個處長這裡有處長這邊有沒有研究一下你手下這五個農場為什麼這兩年營業額都往下掉委員跟委員報告有關"},{"start":434.788,"end":463.058,"text":"三高山農場整個人數下滑是一個確實的狀況那我們確實也去了解說為什麼人數下滑其實這兩年從去年0403地震之後道路的中斷跟管制其實從台14甲去年的道路中斷到今年台7甲的修路其實路一直在修那我請問現在道路修復了沒目前道路都是通暢的那目前就台8的部分從大禹嶺到福州站這段還在修路"},{"start":463.558,"end":480.327,"text":"全部道路都已經恢復通暢嘛 是幾月份恢復的因為都是斷斷續續所以說如果已經來看的話 完整通車如果是7月份是完整可以通車今年7月份就完整通車了嘛所以理論上我從今年的8月到明年的7月底"},{"start":481.007,"end":499.319,"text":"我們的營收應該要回到交通因素不存在喔你們很多是調到只剩4%原來22% 13%的投報率調到3% 4%那我接受你剛才講的因素但那個因素在今年7月以後不存在的時候那明年我來看這個幾個季度的營收的話"},{"start":500.12,"end":524.489,"text":"你要回到十三二十幾了第二個跟委員報告就是說因為今年的颱風影響像福壽山原本去年就有稍受影響從原來17萬斤的果到去年10萬斤那今年更受影響因為八月份的洋流颱風加上今年三月份山上下雪四月份強降雨其實整個授粉狀況跟弱果的狀況其實造成"},{"start":525.069,"end":547.674,"text":"我們今年的果品少收9萬斤其實9萬斤的話我們換算一公斤一斤的話是200塊這樣就將近1800萬所以說整體營收果的少收其實對我們影響很大第二個氣候的影響像福州山農場今年的茶葉兩期茶各少收1000斤所以我少收2000斤所以說對農場的在農作物的影響方面非常甚去"},{"start":548.294,"end":564.682,"text":"那陳柱主委講的其實我們在旅客數雖然是減少但是我們的住宿狀況其實是有維持的所以那個處長或是副主委這邊我希望以後這個報表的呈現可以更精準比方說按計"},{"start":565.882,"end":589.207,"text":"然後這個季發生了什麼重大 下雪所以造成這個落果或營收減少多少斤那我就知道減少的原因是天然災害那相對的有沒有取得農業部的農災災損的補償因為你們不列入啊所有的災損補償從COVID到現在你們都不歸他們管所以補助金你們都領不到你可以把他載民 是否則我現在分析不出來你為什麼掉下來那我最後幾十秒"},{"start":591.007,"end":603.081,"text":"可是你剛才講的那些因素我希望在明年我看這個報表除非有新的道路中斷否則這個數據就變不及格囉明年就要拉回來嘛但是你剛才講的那些因素都存在那為什麼台東農場192%欸"},{"start":606.064,"end":633.013,"text":"為什麼他們特別好因為他們最主要是尾營的狀況還有他們欠收款有收回來還有他們利息調整沒有啊 你每一年都一百九十幾一百八十幾你每年都在有欠收款那是經營討債公司那為什麼每一年都有欠收款我可以說明一下台東農場為什麼表現這麼優異最主要原因 原本他們自營的譬如說東河 譬如說池上他們現在都是尾營出去的原本我們在自營的時候那兩個地方都是虧錢的"},{"start":634.153,"end":644.768,"text":"一年大概虧五六百萬現在委營出去 我跟你說我抓了五年的數據都199他只有兩個原因第一個 計算基礎偏低要調高啦"},{"start":646.634,"end":673.512,"text":"他營業項目 你以前這些米啊 尾銀的虧損我現在收回來 收回來那麼多年了每年都190幾%的營收 我坦白講這個如果要發那種鼓勵喔 配東的股東大會人家就說你造假因為你基期偏低 大家都10% 20%就超級好了有的3% 4% 他都190幾% 所以是不是計算的基準應該要調整另外一個情形就是 我們廠長是不是出了人才啊 應該拉上來當副主委啊"},{"start":675.224,"end":683.041,"text":"農曉他經營技巧這麼好啊就是說你這個東西在統計學上叫做離差嘛那這離差我要找到原因好不好那因為時間關係我們後續會再追蹤你們經營的狀況好 謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"166621","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166621","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60f1e9dde3c8c88ac5edbd2ae366782b1a91760b03f9a190b70cd442c3dfdba8065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:10:24 - 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次長好這次台北車站台北發生了無差別的暴力攻擊造成了重大傷亡"},{"start":21.653,"end":30.535,"text":"那明天就是聖誕節下週就是跨年元旦更是大眾運輸跟各大觀光景點人潮聚集的高峰"},{"start":31.562,"end":57.644,"text":"因為交通部他轄管全國各大交通場站包括國道休息區、鐵道、港口、航空站、重要觀光景區等等我想請問次長交通部對於突發公共安全事件的應變以及守護公共運輸以及保障用路人跟旅客安全針對這一次重大的所謂的無差別的暴力攻擊交通部有沒有什麼特別的因應跟精進的作為"},{"start":58.567,"end":64.21,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下所有各個運輸場站或是運具車站等等的其實我們平常就定有相關的因應整體的安全的災害或是防恐的應變計畫而且在那個應變計畫裡面也大概都會有相關的演練所以這樣的機制是有的"},{"start":83.278,"end":107.909,"text":"但是因為有這樣的一次的一個應該是一個事件發生之後所以我們布里頭鐵道局大概就是第一個因為是很多的軌道廠站所以要求相關的一個軌道廠站不管是台鐵 高鐵或是各地方的捷運系統都要加強相關的一個防恐或人員安全維護的一個作業好"},{"start":109.95,"end":134.093,"text":"另外他也會回過頭來去檢討我剛才特別提到的他們有相關的應變的計畫他平常會有災害應變的計畫那也會因應這種防恐也有防恐的計畫他也會去相關的一個檢討那剛才有委員特別提到的聯合應變中心的相關的運作的機制他也會一併來做一個檢討來確保相關的一個用路人的安全"},{"start":135.839,"end":162.614,"text":"我想請教一下因為台北車站是全台第一大站它包含高鐵、台鐵、北捷、桃捷四鐵還有四條地下街跟微風廣場每天有50萬人進出交通部請台鐵局在2019年在台北車站東側U1層設置聯合防災中心我想請問次長知道台北車站聯合防災中心的功能是什麼"},{"start":163.599,"end":189.158,"text":"我想台北聯合防災應變中心就是剛才委員特別提到因為在那裡頭出入的人員很多相關的機關很多相關聯防機制是怎麼處理的所以他們就有訂定一個特定區的防災應變的一個計畫在那個計畫裡頭就會成立那個中心由那個中心來統籌該地區就是台北特定區的相關維安的一個計畫好"},{"start":192.36,"end":219.005,"text":"就本席這邊的資料聯合防災中心在整合台北車站各個單位CCTV監控救災無線電及消防火警訊號等防救災設備他設定所謂的緊急應變標準作業程序他在2019年曾經針對廣告燈箱起火置物櫃行李箱起火無差別暴力攻擊事件未爆彈處置以及毒化物"},{"start":219.585,"end":231.097,"text":"等五項情境進行演習那我想請教次長2019年之後聯合防災中心還有沒有曾經針對這種類似的無差別暴力事件來進行演習"},{"start":234.762,"end":259.299,"text":"後續如果我可以提供他們演習的一個資料給委員但是我的了解像這樣的一個中心它非常的一個重要所以每一年它都一定會定有一個防災演練的一個計畫甚至在整個不管是交通部也好或整個行政院也好有時候都會指定台北車站做一個演練的一個場所我跟次長說因為我本席這邊"},{"start":261.501,"end":287.716,"text":"會問這個問題是2019年之後我沒有看到資料顯現就是說第一個當然如果有的話資料不給我如果沒有也顯現說今天就你知道2019年做的那個演習就很重要可見就很重要那等於是對於這一次的事件可以做一些預先的防範那請交通部來去確認像這個演習是不是在什麼樣頻率之下應該要進行可以嗎"},{"start":288.901,"end":316.059,"text":"我们也来如果有必要检讨他的一个频率或者一个方式也一并做检讨好那这次攻击事件凶犯是由台北捷运M8入口进入M7连通道他用烟雾弹持刀攻击民众在走中山地下街到大同区旅馆那照理说联合防灾中心应该可以在监控荧幕上及时发现凶犯的犯案状况立即因应那这一次有发生什么实际的作用"},{"start":318.561,"end":343.628,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下他這裡頭我手頭上的一個資料這個聯合防災應變中心大概在當天的下午5點27分就接獲北捷的通報民眾有在M7的這個放置疑似的煙霧彈那其實他就依照那個相關的程序立即啟動二級的緊急應變機制在7點28分就會通知了"},{"start":347.029,"end":370.169,"text":"四鐵四街一圍封也就是有九個單位進駐的單位讓他們能夠立即知道這件事情然後立即採取相關的一個應變的一個機制然後在這個55分的時候他就因為他那個聯合應變中心他要有一個指揮官他指揮官就進駐了我有看到一個在台北車站內工作的民眾他有在吹哨留言給那個陳士凱部長"},{"start":372.318,"end":396.447,"text":"他说过去联合防灾中心常常在发布火警讯息之后又发布以上讯息为误报的全站广播那这一次的攻击事件联合防灾中心却没有发布火警讯息虽然北捷有广播了一次说M1出口有民众释放燃烧物但也没有进一步警示在内民众的危险性那还有很多人认为是过去的误报"},{"start":397.367,"end":424.159,"text":"這位民眾說防災中心的螢幕也沒有出現任何的功能定格在請往出口移動他說他不想指責防災聯合防災中心慢半拍但是希望災害發生時我們能夠確保他持續提供正確的資訊給站內工作者市長我想請教這位在台北車站工作民眾的建議有沒有道理那聯合防災中心的應變有沒有需要檢討的地方"},{"start":425.285,"end":451.465,"text":"跟委員報告有關這一次的事件之後其實我們第一時間鐵道局就開始要求台鐵因為剛才特別提到它有一個聯合應變的計畫那個計畫是不是要做檢討那當然這一部分還有計畫執行裡頭一定有一個通知然後如果讓訊息做一個傳播那這一部分是不是在這一次不夠落實我想都會納為這次檢討的一個範圍"},{"start":455.347,"end":474.938,"text":"麻煩那個次長因為事實上災害發生像你們我覺得鄭民眾講得很好如果過去你的警報不夠精確經常誤報的話就產生攔來的效應事實上這次警報反而沒有說事實發揮功能這是對大家造成影響我也跟次長分享"},{"start":476.179,"end":496.407,"text":"剛好M8出口到中山地下街因為我平常有時候會有走路一萬步的習慣所以有時候中午我就會到台北市站吃個飯走路過去然後再走那個中山地下街走一小段就是從M8出口到中山地下街所以我非常能夠體會就是說民眾在走的過程當中那種"},{"start":497.307,"end":516.011,"text":"那種不安全感就是這個事件發生之後很多人都覺得自己暴露在一個重大風險當中所以我希望各個政府機關能夠精進相關的作為因為像這樣的一個所謂的無差別暴力攻擊他奪走不只是許多人的生命破壞很多家庭的"},{"start":516.812,"end":527.242,"text":"這個幸福那也剝奪了今天我們講用路人他在路上行走的一個安全這個拜託相關部門尤其交通部門能夠多加的一個檢討跟改進謝謝委員這部分我們會來做一個通盤的一個檢討好 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請陳組計長委員好"},{"start":6.345,"end":25.803,"text":"主席長 我稍微統計一下此次的這個總預算的覆違應該是史無前例當中最晚覆違的紀錄那從陳水扁總統到馬英九總統 蔡英文總統至今那審裁預算本來就是立法院的權利但同時也是義務但過去 過去從來但是從憲法的這個規定當中"},{"start":32.749,"end":50.576,"text":"這個總預算應該是在11月30號要預決但是從2000年到現在25個年度沒有一年是11月底審完的那甚至只有三個年度是12月底之前刪讀它是因為要選舉那今年呢是更誇張到現在還沒有復為這是創紀錄"},{"start":53.444,"end":68.966,"text":"那就如同在野黨的那個一些在那個團體說在批評在野黨他不應該是據審而應該是嚴審那要看到的是如果回想一下我們這個會期的時候藍白立委口口聲聲都要服國立民都要推動這個民生法案"},{"start":69.706,"end":86.472,"text":"但是後來就推動政治法案 甚至連總預算都不審這哪來復國立民 這哪來注重民生結果跑去中國之後回來又接受了新的任務又開始背個1.25兆的國防特別預算可是我們要去問的是說現在這邊這個問題這麼嚴重將來不是115年度 116年度 117年度可能都會變常態化"},{"start":96.107,"end":124.861,"text":"那如果都常態化的情況底下一來我們稅收非常的增加那二來呢我們的新興計畫卻不能進行新興計畫是一個投資性的一個國家未來這種情況底下只有鬥爭沒有民生只想內耗卻不顧未來主席長你有沒有什麼樣的好的方法來面對這個問題在面對政治困境當中你身為一個主席長你也是一個政務任命你當然去思考這個政治問題要怎麼去面對主席長請"},{"start":126.144,"end":143.413,"text":"是 我們還是希望說大院能夠儘速來審議總預算因為這攸關到人民的一個相關的權益還有整個國家的一個發展尤其現在我們的這時刻那包括我們的那個相關的國防的一個預算也請大院能夠支持"},{"start":144.374,"end":158.551,"text":"對 除了大院支持之外你還沒有什麼其他的方法譬如講 你未來預算的當中就盡量不用新興計畫用過去的計畫當中來做延續把新興的可能性來做延續有沒有可能這種方式"},{"start":158.971,"end":168.5,"text":"但是園區的計畫如果超過上年度的一樣還是被管制到所以我們今年超過上年度的有1805億然後新興的是1017億這樣子"},{"start":174.645,"end":202.44,"text":"對 金融上待會我們還會再做討論而不只是新興計畫連一般性的計畫都可能受到影響甚至是救災的相關的預算可是我的問題是說在政治上的一個效應當中它最後的結果就是讓現有的新興計畫一般新興計畫是有政見的落實就是一個總統的政見的落實讓你總統的政見不能落實到時候批說你這個政見跳票會不會造成這樣的結果"},{"start":203.895,"end":231.339,"text":"有可能那因為像114年度有很多的一個經費是被刪減的譬如說像有一些相關的經常性的業務經費那像院裡頭的一個那個生活服務的業務那幾乎被刪減那幾乎沒有經費可以維持那你如果照這樣來講它整個是經常的一個維持是有困難的又比照去年的一個額度來執行它整個是遭遇到比較大的一個"},{"start":231.699,"end":248.668,"text":"所以我們來換算整個金額就如同你今天所報告新興計畫的部分的經費是高達1017億1017億的情況底下可是你經常性的基礎跟延續性的計畫又不能超過前一年"},{"start":249.908,"end":274.936,"text":"這邊的經費就高達1805億然後如果再加上預備金 災防準備金170億不能動的話加起來是2992億這也就是為什麼今天招偶會排這一個3000億的這一個不能動的預算所以說它包括的層面不只是新興計畫還有包括其他那現在就所有的這一個內容當中就列舉這些內容這些內容都是一些民生法案"},{"start":275.976,"end":280.539,"text":"甚至小朋友未來一起養的部分這個300億會受到影響嗎也會受到影響還有一些未來投資AI的部分也會受到影響最近的天災又不斷AI建設是102億受到影響AI的部分是102億受到影響小朋友呢"},{"start":301.94,"end":316.024,"text":"小朋友0到6歲一起養的部分呢這個部分是主要是說我們有一個生育補助將近41億元那會影響到12萬新生兒的一個其實新生兒的金額大概多少41億41億"},{"start":322.256,"end":341.417,"text":"這些都說了 更何況最近天災不斷連這個災害準備預備金都會受到影響對 災害準備金50億它也是會受到影響好 那我接下來請經濟部的這個次長經濟部的次長 還有文化部的次長請上來一下 何市長還有文化部的次長"},{"start":343.002,"end":366.751,"text":"委員好 次長剛剛救災的部分我們至少還有提到說當然是颱風有一個特別預算但是他是在災休搶休的預算我們分配到大概13.11在台南市的部分但是你如果做一個未來的強韌性的一個部分的話那很可能需要的是一個新興計畫來去強化"},{"start":369.96,"end":394.157,"text":"我記得三個月行政院有拍板定案一個一千億的治水預算這治水預算算新興計畫嗎是 算新興計畫四年要編定六百五十億四年是一千億然後目前這一個部分的盤點很多在台南的部分都已經納入其中了嘛那接下來這些計畫不都停擺了嗎對 請大院趕快審查通過這個預算"},{"start":398.991,"end":415.924,"text":"不是大院請藍白接下來你如果這個預算都沒有辦法的話你還沒有其他的部分可以做一個稍微補救或補強目前應該是沒有相關的預算可以來運賜那個次長現在聽起來是很無奈都完全沒有爭取了半天就預算都卡關文化部"},{"start":431.619,"end":448.937,"text":"文化部那個李赤李赤最近我們有一筆經費是再造歷史現場的計畫這個總是舊的一個計畫了吧這不會被卡關吧高雅委員再造歷史現場是新興計畫所以這個三億多預算會受到影響所以"},{"start":450.438,"end":469.808,"text":"115年当中我们选区当中有一个重要的文化资产跟古迹的修复在我的选区当中就有8案外加金坛店的部分9案的这个部分本来10月已经再度召开协调会在11月的时候你们说会有一个出省的结果不知道这出省的结果目前的状况怎么样"},{"start":471.352,"end":489.235,"text":"目前還在審議中 月底我們大概12月底到1月應該會把它完成12月底完成 可是我們在追問的過程當中你們還要等待主計總署那個主委長 還有一個直轄市各縣市財力分歧表還沒有出來"},{"start":490.316,"end":504.853,"text":"主席長 又卡到這一關欸怎麼一回事我們最近因為那個345億重新分配以後它的財力它的財力局域又做變更所以我們最近又再簽一次給院長是因為財化法第一次修法的版本的調整嗎"},{"start":505.714,"end":529.569,"text":"调整之后第二次又345亿又重新分配的第二次不附属啦那个是另外一个是第三次对它有好几次的一个修正那你这个财务分级表也会影响到整个未来这个整个中央相关部会因为你这个分级表来做一个资源的配置也会影响到那你这个什么时候出来啊"},{"start":530.369,"end":558.629,"text":"不是那第一個縣市的一個財力分級我們會先簽辦出來那第二個就是簽辦出來之後就會給部會去讓他去做什麼時候出來我問你就是分級表我們已經簽給院長了已經簽給院長了是麻煩跟院長再講一下不然各部會無所適從新興的不行延續性的不行全部都卡在那邊這天災不斷有一些修復成本只會越來越高不會越來越少那個主席長請回最後再請教一家交通部交通部"},{"start":561.314,"end":561.696,"text":"相關部次長來 請吳次長"},{"start":573.201,"end":595.61,"text":"五次那個台南市有相當多的一些新興的軌道計畫當中除了鐵路地下化我先一個一個問好鐵路地下化會不會受到影響預算鐵路地下化它是原系性的就比較不會影響那個南線的部分還是不能超過三個年度的就不能超過之前的一個平均那個南線的部分呢"},{"start":596.415,"end":613.172,"text":"他是欣欣欣欣就很困難沒有辦法就沒有辦法 完全動不了譬如台南市政府要動的話台南市政府要自己想辦法中央的錢沒有辦法到位沒有辦法到位那你最近一個最新的微笑南灣計畫呢微笑南灣也沒辦法因為是屬於欣欣的"},{"start":614.435,"end":632.949,"text":"韋孝南彎也沒辦法那能不能先行規劃有沒有可能規劃當然計劃會有沒有可能現在就是剛剛講的因為他總共的經費他在這一次審議他完全沒辦法下來的話我就沒辦法動連計劃會都不行對 沒辦法那只有政策的決定但是完全沒有辦法執行對好 謝謝好 謝謝郭委員接下來我們請中央嘉賓委員"}]}},{"id":"166631","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166631","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60ce25b6138c6b18098f4e93bf07b6087f91760b03f9a190b7faaab92e9403bad85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:36:39 - 10:45:27","影片長度":"00:08:48","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T10:36:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T10:45:27+08:00","duration":528,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.32971875,"end":6.8990937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.08471875,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.125968750000002,"end":13.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.93596875,"end":14.374718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.087843750000001,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.98721875000001,"end":115.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.87534375000001,"end":105.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.09784375000001,"end":114.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.05096875000001,"end":116.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.13096875000001,"end":124.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.47659375,"end":118.81409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.10909375000001,"end":121.54784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.46721875,"end":141.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.13971875000001,"end":158.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.72971875000002,"end":147.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.94784375,"end":154.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.65596875,"end":158.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.41534375,"end":169.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.99596875,"end":172.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.13471875000002,"end":186.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.36034375,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.82846875,"end":190.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.42721875,"end":203.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.71221875,"end":204.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.91034375,"end":233.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.59784375,"end":247.24971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.76221875000002,"end":235.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.39471875,"end":237.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.39034375000003,"end":238.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.67596875,"end":262.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.63534375,"end":271.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.79034375000003,"end":280.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.08034375,"end":278.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.89846875,"end":288.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.36596875000004,"end":286.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.04909375,"end":290.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.34846875,"end":293.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.26784375,"end":293.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.28471875,"end":293.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.62221875,"end":296.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.54596875000004,"end":300.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.00534375,"end":300.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.97971875,"end":305.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.79346875000005,"end":308.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.14721875000004,"end":310.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.49721875,"end":313.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.20596875,"end":312.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.51784375,"end":315.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.81284375,"end":319.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.72409375,"end":317.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.49159375,"end":321.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.61784375,"end":324.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.82846875,"end":325.44846875},{"spe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請陳部長來 請部長部長 老農今天行之有年尤其是高齡的農民退休之後的基本生活就是我們要來對他們做了一些保障所以跟農民的退休儲金這個制度我們雙雙都希望完善了農民的福利最重要的這個措施"},{"start":31.056,"end":59.367,"text":"但是隨著物價的攀升還有現行的農民的這個津貼的給付這個相關的金額的規定我們今天才會特別來排審這個老農津貼希望能夠符合他們生活上的需要那但是現在社會上很質疑的就是因為物價的高漲而我們的暫行條例這邊一直都沒有調漲所以希望我們能夠尊重我們的農民對他們做最好的照料那尤其是這個老農津貼在2012年的"},{"start":60.828,"end":89.867,"text":"七千元一直到現在的八千一百一十元我們是有調整但是不符合現在的這個通貨膨脹的嚴重跟物價上漲的情形所以我們希望能夠符合他們生活需要的一個重要非常沉重的一個負擔所以今天也請教部長在這個八千一百一十元這個一次要拉高到現在很多委員的版本那本席的提案是一萬元那有可能在至少一萬元以上嗎"},{"start":91.021,"end":114.394,"text":"我剛才說了基本上農業部是支持這樣子額度的調高因為他的基數過往的基數比較低了一點但是調高的過程中我們在試算我們每增加一千塊所需要的經費這是第一個第二個就是說這個增幅的比例也是要能夠跟其他的八大政府基金物價指數成長率作為依據"},{"start":116.215,"end":140.797,"text":"沒有 物價指數一定會動只是再把這個額度的基數再把它拉高那這個部分我想我們方向是一致的是 部長所以講到這基數的拉高跟物價指數可以做調整的話我們也必須要有依據那尤其是我們的調整有設限在四年一次這個調整的這個週期可不可以改成兩年一次或者是一年一次的週期呢"},{"start":141.297,"end":157.406,"text":"我想我們支持有一個期中檢討就大概是兩年來檢討一次檢討有一個標準就是他的CPI如果大達某一個百分比就觸動這個調整那我們現在初步的一個想法就是3%到5%"},{"start":159.462,"end":183.218,"text":"好那這樣很好那可是這調整中我們也要注意到一件事情剛剛也都提到排富條款有它的門檻就是農業以外他們的收入超過50萬的話還有第二個就是說除了他們的房子跟土地這個扣掉我們的農地或者是說他們的農舍以外超過500萬的話都會喪失了這個老農津貼是不是"},{"start":187.421,"end":204.367,"text":"那現在又因為土地會增值啊這個14年沒有改的這個門檻土地增值剛剛講的被排除在外的有一萬四一萬二這些人就是這樣子的喪失所以我們制度要與時俱進的做調整部長說是不是"},{"start":205.223,"end":233.446,"text":"絕對同意就是我們也是朝這個方向就是土地公告限制這麼多年來從102年到現在一直都沒有調那沒有調的話我們希望說它可以根據土地公告限制一步到位的把它調調到符合現在的一個基準那第二個部分就是我們的所得雖然說所得是跟CPI比較有關但是我們所得也沒有跟著當初跟著額度一起調我們一直都不動所以這一次的排富我們不只是在所得上面我們會拉高"},{"start":233.666,"end":261.869,"text":"所有的配套都要配進去不要單一這樣調整這樣子不合公平尤其現在的生活經濟的狀況跟我們的整個通膨物價高漲的情形通通要把計算進去所以我也跟委員報告其實委員提了39個版本我們都非常認真的去分析然後我們也設計了一個這樣的一個方案所以今天在這個報告其實我已經蠻正面的回應了那因為行政院現在還沒有通過院會"},{"start":263.68,"end":280.328,"text":"不適當馬上講我們的數值不過我想盡快的我希望能夠爭取行政院下個禮拜可是部長我們送進行政院已經四個月了那你也特別說到你有跟行政院做專案報告那專案報告到現在為什麼沒送出來"},{"start":280.948,"end":308.787,"text":"是什么原因我跟委员报告我跟包括院长包括政委那边报告版本是一次比一次好所以他为什么还不送出来一次比一次好那我们看看会不会更好更好那你不能一次到位的提出来我才会说我期待期待什么时候出来你一定会出来我想因为愿贵不是我决定的但是我会跟行政院争取看看你报告几次了看看你一次一次比一次好你报告几次了"},{"start":309.187,"end":325.278,"text":"我至少報告三次以上三次了所以行政院版本應該要出來了嘛然後我現在已經定案了就要進到院會所以應該是年底就會進來我是期待我會再跟行政院爭取已經定案就應該出來了嘛"},{"start":325.418,"end":342.452,"text":"沒有 行政院因為行政院院會排的案子很多嘛我們希望說排進行政院院會的包括因為行政院是希望說跟其他八項社會福利的這個一起做調整才一起進來嘛但是我們希望把這個農民的老農津貼這部分先行進來好不好"},{"start":343.512,"end":366.26,"text":"我想院長也有曾經這樣的一個想法啦就是說農民的經驗也許可以先行啦但是考慮的時候一定要同步考慮到其他的八大社會基金啦但是在同步考慮的情況之下那老農經驗是不是可以先行一直等到越等越久啦你都報告三次了也要尊重我們部長好不好"},{"start":367.76,"end":390.357,"text":"我們一直努力的讓這個案子能夠讓我們的老農做得很好那你們還沒修 已經定案了但是我們本期還是要提一下因為老農他們彎著腰守著土地在耕作從年輕到老我們他的生活 高齡的老農的生活我們要給他一個有尊嚴的耕好好的照料跟保障"},{"start":390.797,"end":414.337,"text":"那但是現在如果我們依一般的物價指數的這個成長率的話現在物價指數的成長率有分一般性的跟高齡的為什麼說高齡的因為年紀比較大的他們的食物啊醫療上他們的負擔會比較重比較大對不對所以可不可以依照高齡的部分來對我們的高齡老農的津貼的部分來做調整我以這個為依據"},{"start":415.878,"end":424.667,"text":"我跟委員報告你用這樣的方式又會把很多的指數搞亂那以老農我也在那個座談會我也聽到因為農民在從事"},{"start":427.905,"end":455.614,"text":"從事農業的時候他的所有的消費是不大一樣的跟一般的不大一樣的所以也有人認為說應該去調查農民農村的一個所得消費的一個形態那樣子可能會造成不同的版本所以我們目前還是依據就是主計處這邊的一個一般的這個CPI的方式來調整所以本系提供給你這個標準跟一般的消費跟高齡的這個家庭的消費是不一樣的指數"},{"start":456.675,"end":469.498,"text":"這個表格都看得到對而且你要調查農村的消費是不一樣的本期提醒你是他們的食物跟醫療不一樣是跟他們生活是不同的是不是"},{"start":472.392,"end":486.464,"text":"我講國營那個我覺得因為65歲以上那65歲以上真正的還能夠就是非常健壯的在田裡工作的人其實還不少那相對的可能他在八十幾歲七十幾歲"},{"start":487.905,"end":508.982,"text":"我可以發現說參加農保的人他的平均餘命其實比一般的還高一些所以不同的年齡層又不一樣了那就很難切啦所以還是請委員支持我們現在先用一般的CPI那如果說我們後續的這些其他的CPI的依據如果更精準的時候我們再來討論"},{"start":509.842,"end":522.629,"text":"我們希望我們的修法能夠更完善每個層級每個狀況都要考慮進去這樣的配套修出來法才會讓大家都能夠覺得對他們有能夠幫助好不好最重要保障我們農民的生活謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166630","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166630","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60eac298cc98ca2e3d8f4e93bf07b6087f91760b03f9a190b7faaab92e9403bad85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:25:35 - 10:36:33","影片長度":"00:10:58","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T10:25:35+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T10:36:33+08:00","duration":658,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.19971875,"end":0.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.607843750000001,"end":10.915343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.032843750000001,"end":75.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.33971875,"end":85.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.04721875,"end":97.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.11284375000001,"end":97.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.65284375,"end":100.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.60596875,"end":102.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.63096875000001,"end":105.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.88784375,"end":133.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.96784375000001,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.86034375,"end":146.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.26534375,"end":149.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.71221875,"end":150.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.70784375000002,"end":151.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.00721875000002,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.41221875000002,"end":153.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.72409375,"end":156.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.39909375000002,"end":156.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.96846875,"end":157.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.12034375000002,"end":162.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.19534375,"end":171.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.68346875,"end":180.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.10096875000002,"end":173.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.64471875,"end":177.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.66971875000002,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.07346875000002,"end":189.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.00971875000002,"end":190.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.85346875000002,"end":190.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.05596875,"end":226.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.88159375,"end":232.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.95659375000002,"end":233.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.64846875,"end":255.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.10909375,"end":275.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.93721875,"end":286.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.52659375,"end":289.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.36159375,"end":297.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.27971875000003,"end":305.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.84034375000005,"end":301.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.05971875,"end":302.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.83971875000003,"end":316.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.87346875000003,"end":306.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.33596875,"end":316.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.77471875000003,"end":342.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.26409375000003,"end":320.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.26284375,"end":325.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.67971875,"end":331.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.70471875000004,"end":333.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.20659375,"end":334.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.20159375000003,"end":339.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.96471875000003,"end":354.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.64221875000004,"end":370.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.87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一個是這樣的狀態另外一個邏輯是排除到唯一自住房屋的這個部分那我不知道部長覺得怎麼樣的解決方案比較適合目前台灣的一個環境然後也是農業部有接下來會繼續去推的部分"},{"start":275.953,"end":297.265,"text":"我第一個跟委員報告就是有些農民他把財產移轉給他的子女我覺得不見得百分之百都是為了領老農經理解當然是這樣子不是有一些這樣子的一個案例嗎第二個我個人一直認為也包括農業部的立場也一直認為其實我們農民在年輕的時候辛辛苦苦的耕種"},{"start":298.346,"end":316.103,"text":"然後得到一些收入收入好不容易買一個房子那那個房子本身他也不會輕易去賣他啦所以當他的房子因為土地公告限制一直拉高的時候那造成他可能達到某一個門檻就被排掉了我認為是不合理的啦"},{"start":316.903,"end":342.245,"text":"所以这是一万两千人嘛我们数字出来有一万两千人所以我们会针对这个土地公告限值的部分去做一些处理那所得的部分过去虽然说我们的额度是根据四年CPI调一次但是所得都没有动都没有根据CPI所以我们也希望说这一次一并把过去十几年来没调的一次到位根据这个CPI累计的CPI去做一个调整"},{"start":343.041,"end":369.704,"text":"所以其實我們很多國民黨籍的委員都主張一萬二調整到一萬二到一萬五之間那目前就是農業部這邊有沒有覺得一個具體的一個數字大概是多少我剛才說的我在報告裡面有提到就是每增加一千塊大概就要六十多億那我們在考慮這個額度的時候一定要考慮到我們的那個經費是否可負擔得了第二個考慮到"},{"start":371.105,"end":387.445,"text":"雖然說我是農業部的但是在整個政策上我也必須考慮到所有的八大社福基金的橫平性我覺得這是一定要去搞以行政團隊來講是議題的一定要討論所以我是希望說它適度的提高但不能拉得太高因為拉得太高的話會造成社會的對立"},{"start":388.086,"end":405.471,"text":"多少叫太高農業部覺得多少叫太高我認為現在委員版本的從以現在版本我們不講說還沒進來的版本以這邊的版本最高是一萬二嘛最低是不調嘛那我們的一個金額是位在這個之間"},{"start":406.539,"end":428.994,"text":"位在這個之間所以如果說後續有別的委員提出了表達1萬5的版本的時候那中間的時候可能會在1萬2變這樣一個邏輯嗎我不希望這是用喊價的部分我們一定會充分的說明其實我剛才說的每剩下1萬塊是他的財政負擔然後一個非常重要的剛才我跟張家健委員他沒有去注意去聽我講的我們的"},{"start":431.135,"end":448.494,"text":"农民不是65岁是强制退休我们还会有工作根据我们现在的资讯大概有30万还在工作所以老农今天不是他唯一的生物理据所以这个部分我们也会考虑到这个部分然后我们也会考虑到国保也会考虑到农保老保这个部分"},{"start":449.255,"end":470.085,"text":"理解那個我在想說其實政府對於農民的一個支持肯定是需要的啦所以我特別提到就是多少的金額這個部分的時候因為新竹市坦白說農民對這部分其實不一定有非常大的一個強烈的要求可是很多農業縣的一個委員確實有這樣的一個主張那我針對這個"},{"start":472.486,"end":494.142,"text":"公平正義的排富這個部分特別的關心所以我們希望在這部分能夠做一個非常清楚的一個規定像你們剛剛提到一個具體一萬兩千這個數字在過去十幾年當中因為土地跟房屋的一個爭執而被排除在外就是很需要我們去解決的一個問題好不好我想我們後續提出來的排富"},{"start":495.437,"end":518.265,"text":"我蠻確信應該可以符合委員的期待OK好那我想說接下來我想問一個狀態就是就是昨天的時候我就是有一個獨家新聞出來表示說農業部會提供續保就是農業商業保險的加額補助5%寶貝5%這個部分請問這個政策已經確定了嗎這應該是確定其實"},{"start":524.507,"end":546.244,"text":"我上任以來我覺得農業保險過去28個品項44個保單我們過去有點說有人願意要我們開我們就開可是那個保單可能只有10幾個20幾個甚至30幾個人在保而已所以我希望是重視保單的品質這第一個第二個就是我希望保險是變成農民的一個習慣因為"},{"start":548.977,"end":564.283,"text":"極端天候天然災害很難預測那不是說我今年遇到很多災害明年就保險那今年沒有遇到災害明年就不保險所以我們針對持續加保的人我們給他一些誘因讓他持續的來加保"},{"start":564.383,"end":579.212,"text":"理解 部長基本上我支持這樣的一個狀態用那個農業商業保險的部分去cover很多我們原本很多的一個政策補助的狀態那我現在想特別去了解的狀態因為目前的時候114年我們相關的一個預算是編列是11.3億那麼115年的預算是估到11.8億那我想說這個"},{"start":590.598,"end":615.856,"text":"部分針對這個農業保險計畫這個預算當中的時候有把這個5%的這個大概1500萬要增加1500萬所以這個在經費上是可以處理的只增加1500萬是不是對不過講到這個我還是拜託委員就是總預算要趕快審我們後面很多農業總預算審的部分的時候我想行政院要尊重立法院修法過之後的狀態修成一個"},{"start":616.536,"end":644.306,"text":"更符合立法院立法通過之後的版本再送進來我想這沒有問題喔只要是行政院有尊重立法院的時候我想說我們立法院一定會秉持我們的職責去做最好的一個預算的一個審查我想行政院要尊重立法院這是整個憲政體制當中很重要的一個原則那行政院不可能要當行政院不可能要當皇帝想要專制想要獨裁然後又要當"},{"start":644.926,"end":658.563,"text":"要把立法院當成橡皮圖章 我覺得這是不可能的事情 好不好謝謝部長好 謝謝曾委員 謝謝部長委員會重新公告 待陳情委員宣導結束"}]}},{"id":"166629","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166629","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60bc608ab7d7d38c598f4e93bf07b6087f91760b03f9a190b7faaab92e9403bad85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:13:01 - 10:25:07","影片長度":"00:12:06","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T10:13:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T10:25:07+08:00","duration":726,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":8.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.379718750000002,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.35846875,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.032843750000001,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.30221875,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.16284375,"end":20.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.85471875,"end":23.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.976593750000003,"end":28.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.469093750000003,"end":32.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.51534375,"end":42.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.72471875,"end":43.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.159093750000004,"end":61.422218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.860968750000005,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.30096875000001,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.02784375,"end":119.42159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.59034375,"end":120.72096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.85596875,"end":122.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.69534375,"end":127.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.05721875,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.22534375,"end":143.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.26159375,"end":152.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.45846875,"end":155.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.52159375000002,"end":158.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.31846875000002,"end":164.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.37221875,"end":168.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.65034375000002,"end":169.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.28721875000002,"end":182.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.97284375,"end":185.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.75721875000002,"end":186.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.33096875,"end":187.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.80346875,"end":194.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.29596875000001,"end":195.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.98784375000002,"end":201.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.33784375000002,"end":197.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.95721875,"end":203.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.44659375,"end":209.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.45409375000003,"end":224.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.60346875000002,"end":226.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.28659375,"end":232.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.46784375000001,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.61096875,"end":231.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.02846875,"end":253.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.34034375000002,"end":234.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.63284375,"end":255.23159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.57346875000002,"end":273.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.91221875,"end":274.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.34659375,"end":300.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.62534375,"end":309.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.29471875,"end":314.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.88034375,"end":326.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.54096875000005,"end":330.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.86096875000004,"end":332.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.88596875,"end":336.99096875000004}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大家都很積極所以就理性討論好 謝謝接下來請張志倫委員來做詢問農業部有很多出席的官員都沒有寫在裡面等一下補充一下給你們補充介紹不然你來這邊就坐得有點渺茫來"},{"start":33.183,"end":35.104,"text":"謝謝主席 各位委員各位官員好有請農業部陳部長以及原住民組委員會洪副處長"},{"start":44.295,"end":60.352,"text":"來 我也好好 謝謝部長那首先今天這個是我們這個未還跟內政委員會等等的聯席所以今天本席特別到現場針對老農的相關的津貼就由部長來就請教那我想要先請這個"},{"start":61.954,"end":79.844,"text":"原住民組委員會的代表就是你們先可不可以講一下說根據這次的修法針對50那個原住民從55歲起請領津貼其實你們今天在報告裡面寫到特別有寫到因為原住民的平均壽命比全體國民大概少了7.54"},{"start":82.246,"end":100.056,"text":"稅這是一個殘酷的科學的現實所以代表原住民原住民的農民在身體上能領取津貼的時間比一般農民少了7年之多這是你們今天在報告裡面明確去寫的可是你們今天的報告被這個農業部打臉他說可是雖然你們講的很對啊可是"},{"start":102.17,"end":127.244,"text":"這個農業部的報告裡面寫說老農今天屬於職業屬性不應該針對特定族群有特別規範那也違反你們今天裡面報告裡面寫的這個原住民基本法的部分應該對原住民族的這個社會福利事項應該要積極的辦理補助所以這邊是不是先請這個原住民委員會的處長你要堅定你的想法是不是可以請你表達幾句"},{"start":129.167,"end":152.013,"text":"是謝謝委員那根據我們就是委託那個國家衛生研究院的那個研究最近113年的報告的確就是原住民的那個平均餘命的部分跟非原住民的朋友們大概是相差7.54歲那這個部分的話就在因為"},{"start":153.693,"end":170.902,"text":"不要緊張 不要緊張幫忙原住民朋友講出來就本位的立場來看就是因為這個有關於老農的那個政策的一個規劃雖然是原住民老農也是很重要對 雖然是農業部在規劃但是這是一種集體權的一種保障"},{"start":177.586,"end":193.207,"text":"那我的意思也就是說如果說假設對於那個老農經貼的那個那個年紀年齡對年齡的如果是放在65歲的話那也就表示說其實大部分的針對這個"},{"start":194.349,"end":222.288,"text":"原住民對老農的今天的政策規劃原住民農民是領不到的嗎對原住民的農民是沒有辦法領到的好謝謝再基於就是我們的委託研究的部分我們還是認為說可以支持好謝謝洪處長好那洪處長謝謝那請部長部長你有沒有聽到這個原住民族委員會的心聲是不是請你你是不是你這個報告裡面就是用一句話就寫說就把這個把他們的這個"},{"start":224.849,"end":250.154,"text":"修法把他給整個給這個不同意啊我跟委員報告是不是你們可以想個比較好的方式來解決我先跟委員提供一個數據剛才原民會這邊提到的是一個全體原住民的年齡嘛平均的年齡嘛那我們是針對有清零老農津貼的這些原住民他的平均餘命是82.7比全國的零老農津貼的還高"},{"start":250.894,"end":274.518,"text":"所以他從事農業的這一群什麼數字從事農業的這一群原住民退休的平均餘命是82.7歲比全國的這些人齡80.8歲還高所以我們老農津貼關心的是從事農業的這一群原住民他的年齡不會比較低"},{"start":275.69,"end":299.938,"text":"不會比全國的低反而比全國的還高所以我們是從這個角度去建議說還是維持65歲那我不是說原委會的資料是錯的他是用全部的原住民不管你是從事任何行業的所以這兩個基準不一樣可是以農業部來講我們處理的是老農津貼所以我們會看零老農津貼的餘命是多少是82.7歲比一般的還高"},{"start":300.66,"end":329.569,"text":"可是我要跟部長講你這樣你這個數字是剛剛你提出來的那我覺得你這樣提出來的話如果就像你的數字來講是正確那當然我覺得大家是可以討論不過你在裡面就是直接就是裡面就是強調說就是不能因為不同族群有特別規範你直接這句話去回覆我認為是不太恰當的就像你剛才解釋如果是真的數字的話其實我相信不曉得原住民族委員會的代表能不能認同你認同嗎"},{"start":331.877,"end":356.668,"text":"你要不要再解釋一下是 我們是認為說就是因為我相信剛剛部長的那個數據應該是是依照他們去調查的數據那就我們這邊的立場我們是認為說就像剛剛我所講的這個部分是一個集體政策的一個規劃所以我認為說既然我們在我們通過"},{"start":358.789,"end":378.754,"text":"委託國家衛生研究院的那個報告是這樣出來的話我們還是認為就是你整個政策居然是要造福所有的那個那個這個族群的話應該就要讓他有接受到這個政府政策的那個規劃的可能性那我們自己也也有稍微去也是依據農業部這邊的資料那其實"},{"start":382.935,"end":410.785,"text":"原住民55歲以上未滿65歲的頭保的農保人數在7500多人那從110年的時候是8000多人那到111年的時候是7500多人所以其實人數都是在大概是呈現500到600之間的那個削減所以我認為說如果說假設要照顧這個呃農民的老年的生活的話我認為"},{"start":413.168,"end":430.402,"text":"應該還是能夠我們還是建議可以張照55歲比照國民年金給付的方式去去做那個農民的給付但是這個部分的話我也跟委員報告我們很希望就是說可以降低原住民勤領津貼的那個年紀不過我們也"},{"start":434.693,"end":452.148,"text":"也尊重這次農業部對整個農民生活的一個政策的規劃好 謝謝副處長有請部長那就是說這件事情就是說因為剛剛我們副處長有特別講其實原住民依照勞基法"},{"start":452.728,"end":466.544,"text":"他的這個原住民給付的年齡也是調整到55歲所以這未來再好好檢討一下多跟其他部會大家多溝通聽聽其他部會的聲音那另外一個其他我要跟你請教就是今天最大家最討論最多的這個"},{"start":468.755,"end":487.015,"text":"導入今天的戰刑條例這次的修法是第二條 第四條跟第七條重點在第四條就是有關於年金給付的金額到底是多少就本席所了解你們8月7號已經將戰刑條例的修正案送給行政院"},{"start":487.535,"end":515.527,"text":"現在已經過了四個多月為什麼行政院的版本到底在哪裡我們有懷疑這像是不是牛布化的行政效率既然你想要調整那為什麼現在政府行政院為什麼都沒有提出版本那這樣到底有沒有我們感受到好像照顧農民的那個心不是是不是就是口號那我想要請教說現在的草案的問題到底是卡在哪裡那你們是不是可以簡單來跟大家講一下"},{"start":516.788,"end":531.48,"text":"我跟委員報告就是從部的角度來講我們可以針對農業的相關的這些法律案或是相關的政策我們可以做一個很好的規劃送到行政院的時候那基本上行政院考慮的不只是這個法"},{"start":532.461,"end":561.346,"text":"他會考慮到跟這個法有關的其他的社福基金的一個橫平性跟一致性所以在這個過程中也考慮到我們的物價指數也逐漸的提高了也考慮到排富的這些土地公告協定來變動所以我們也是在行政院不是等待審查是在討論非常多次的過程中不斷的去精進我們的版本所以我們這一次剛才報告的過程中其實也大致上符合委員的版本"},{"start":562.006,"end":585.525,"text":"就是額度是朝提高的方向我們有適當的排富這個東西都已經符合委員的期待只是那個額度到底要多少這個就是到時候我們再來看怎麼樣的去討論找到一個平衡點我先有看到你們農業部有一個有針對各委員提高的版本你們有做一個統整表那請問一下部長你有沒有哪一個版本你是看起來覺得你比較能認同的"},{"start":586.366,"end":610.858,"text":"我剛才說的齁這個還是要去尊重委員的版本齁那我只針對這個現在這裡面的部分齁那我剛才說的我把這裡面的經費 你本身的意見咧我的經驗就是要看我們的財政的負擔我們要看財政的負擔那現在有很多版哪一個金額是你比較認同我們的金額會落在這裡面就是說你八千到一萬二都考慮只是說都考慮"},{"start":611.843,"end":627.599,"text":"我們都有考慮都有試算那我們我們最後的建議版會落在這個之間就會在這之間對好因為很抱歉了因為行政並沒有核定我沒辦法所以意思就是說這四版那我在講今天呃所以這四個版本你認為"},{"start":628.925,"end":655.751,"text":"都不會 未來只要發布三讀通過都可以實行就對了你的意思是這樣子嗎對 我剛才一個強調就是說因為我們行政院在設計經費的時候一定考慮到我們的財政的一個負擔嘛所以在這個財政的負擔我才會有一個分析表就是從那個九千塊一直到一萬五的財政負擔所以政府都是有能力負擔的不管是九千塊到一萬二你們都有討論過我們提出來的是我們覺得"},{"start":658.312,"end":678.673,"text":"你剛剛是說部長不是說你的版本你所有版本都能接受落在這個之間包含嗎包含12000到8000我說落在這個之間不代表就是這個之間都可以這兩個不同的意思喔那你你不回答到底你的想法是什麼你回答一個很廣泛的就是落在這個之間"},{"start":683.21,"end":702.169,"text":"這個聽不太懂啦那最後就要跟這個部長拜託為什麼有這麼多不同的版本剛剛張家俊委員也說有一萬二的版本其實就是考慮到老農他的生活的等等相關的負擔而且以及我們大家最常講的就是這個這個有關於這個他們的一般的這個"},{"start":705.63,"end":726.298,"text":"這個生活的基本生活費等等的都是他們在參考的一個重點所以還是要拜託部長在這邊的時候盡量可以針對接近他們的基本生活費就像剛剛張家俊委員講的不然他們生活其實是相對來講比較辛苦在這拜託部長幫忙 謝謝好 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謝謝主席我請一下陳次長交通部陳次長"},{"start":17.794,"end":40.885,"text":"委員好好 次長早剛才有特別講到有關於就是我看到民進黨的吳斯堯委員講到有關於總預算的審查那麼另外就是還有我們這一次就是我們立法院有修正財化法那次長知道我們為什麼要再次的修正財化法嗎我想那個財化法大概就是"},{"start":49.92,"end":68.017,"text":"市長我特別要告訴你因為我們自己身為區域的委員我自己也曾經當過多年的台北市議員我深知尤其在地方的交通建設非常非常重要我們剛才圖全集委員也特別談到有關於地方的交通問題"},{"start":69.258,"end":89.443,"text":"而我們在這一次就是說之前修正財化法之後那麼各縣市尤其都會區的這個補助款特別是這計畫型補助款尤其是捷運的部分受到極大極大極大的衝擊我相信次長應該心知肚明"},{"start":90.143,"end":109.171,"text":"因為在這個第一次的財化法修正之後行政院用一紙公文就直接把非常多的縣市的捷運的補助款一下子大砍特砍比如說我們台北市我們台北市一下子total砍了650億的捷運補助款它的刪減幅度高達75%"},{"start":115.954,"end":139.257,"text":"新北市也是刪減了90億元刪減幅度達到72%台中市最離譜台中市捷運藍線要開工了竟然突然告訴他們由原來合定的42億元的補助款一下子只剩下2億只剩下零頭"},{"start":141.259,"end":148.284,"text":"刪減幅度高達96%同樣的高雄不是只有萊茵執政縣市高雄的捷運也被刪除了103億元之多幅度也高達75%就是在桃園也是一樣軌道建設也刪減了69億元就是因為我們在整個的這個補助款的部分在"},{"start":169.759,"end":192.102,"text":"行政院在完全沒有尊重地方也沒有跟地方討論之下一下子大山特山所以這就是為什麼我們要二次的去修正才化法這個跟地方的建設有極度的相關我們都知道這個尤其這個捷運實際上各個都會區都在發展所以我覺得"},{"start":193.183,"end":218.829,"text":"作為一個區域的委員我們沒有辦法看到以我來講我台北市的委員我怎麼能看到一下子一紙公文就把我台北市的捷運的補助款砍掉650億我相信其他縣市也是如此那今天我想跟那個市長就教一件事前一陣子發生一個非常悲劇同樣的我們一直希望防堵酒駕"},{"start":220.049,"end":228.322,"text":"但是呢 在前一陣子台南發生了一個把是少女 是一個女清潔隊員被酒駕撞死"},{"start":229.676,"end":249.006,"text":"酒駕的問題事實上我們從1999年開始修法把酒駕入法之後其實我們一直不停的提高它的刑度也把一些累犯的認定把它做放寬可是你可以看到就在前不久前又有一個女清潔隊員"},{"start":252.099,"end":262.071,"text":"被酒駕撞死 真的讓人很難過而我們現在看到的就是取締的酒駕累犯的件數居高不下"},{"start":263.226,"end":288.884,"text":"比例也是一直都很高啊還是年年在創新高所以我們到底有沒有窮盡一切的辦法去防毒酒駕特別是防毒這些酒駕的累犯我們在修法我剛剛講我們現在也把這個酒駕這個致死最高可以判處無期徒刑這刑度其實也拉高了好 那我現在要跟次長再討論一件事情"},{"start":291.245,"end":317.417,"text":"過去 這個最早是從我們台北市開始討論就是因為很多的人喝完酒之後心存僥倖那我們現在行度也提高了但是可能對很多人無感 他也沒有感受所以呢 在最早是我們台北市開始提出來我記得當時還是何志偉當議員的時候他說這個酒駕就讓他去洗大體"},{"start":319.265,"end":346.077,"text":"就讓他去洗大庭 讓他看了之後他可以心生畏懼不要再心存僥倖不要再成為酒駕的累犯所以我想 次長 我想請教一下我們在各縣市有一些縣市其實 這看這個檢察官啦 檢察官有些真的就讓他去 有的就讓他去看大庭有的讓他去洗大庭"},{"start":347.805,"end":374.95,"text":"當然有些這種社會服務勞動啊我覺得不足以讓他感覺到畏懼他去尊重一個生命讓他知道他如果在這樣子一個心存僥倖然後喝酒有的喝一夜你可能就是撞死撞死一個少女撞死一個家裡負擔所有大大小小老老少少家計的一個父親一個母親都可能"},{"start":376.164,"end":404.544,"text":"所以我們怎麼樣能夠讓這個酒駕累犯不要再增加了我們看到這個數字觸目驚心啊所以市長在這個部分酒駕的部分我們還有沒有可以精進的地方我想跟委員報告有關酒駕這件事情其實是各界都一直很痛心而且認為應該要具體改善那酒駕的一個處罰其實剛才委員特別提到其實它分兩塊一個是刑法一個是行政法"},{"start":405.044,"end":416.99,"text":"委員特別提到說刑法的部分是不是會太輕等等的這是刑法上但是就行政法上來講的話如果委員可以去看他是所有處罰條例裡頭罰款最高而且是無上限的一個罰款"},{"start":420.592,"end":447.278,"text":"那至於說累犯的這部分累犯的部分我們在累犯他要重考的時候我們也要經過一定的一個酒駕毒飲防治之後受過相關的訓練然後要裝酒精鎖以後他才可以去重考才可以取得駕照所以有關這樣的我們大概就是窮境行政機關的相關的作為那我剛才講說我們就把它變成不要說各縣市或各地檢署不同的這個他們的方式"},{"start":450.299,"end":460.076,"text":"就真的就是讓這些酒駕有些累犯真的就讓他去洗大體讓他感受到他對生命要有一定的尊重我覺得酒駕累犯實在是"},{"start":463.82,"end":485.617,"text":"我跟委員報告一下有關刑法的部分當然我們可以跟法務部再來協調請他們看如何來有比較具體而且讓民眾有強烈感受的部分但是有關在酒駕要做道安講習的部分我們其實有些監理機關也是在殯儀館上來舉行的來辦理的放到殯儀館我覺得道安講習其實已經講都講破嘴了"},{"start":492.782,"end":503.671,"text":"但是呢 我們三不五時還是會發生這些這種悲劇 只是說我們讓我們這個社會能不能大家有這個意識 好不好好 這個我們再繼續來加強 好 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有沒有哪一個縣市政府會倒的"},{"start":222.862,"end":245.173,"text":"你回答我嘛有沒有哪一個縣市政府會倒的這個要看他整個一個一個能夠舉借額度的一個情形不要講那個齁我也不敢說你是內行人外行人講外行話中華民國在這裡沒有一個縣市倒過嘛你手上都有資金可以用啊"},{"start":250.407,"end":277.839,"text":"你知道你上面所講的一百一十四年度一百一十五年度你的稅率變多少稅率的部分是不是請財政部來說明這個你自己寫的兩兆八千多億兩兆八千六百二十三億那我請問你十年前的時候稅率是多少應該是"},{"start":281.172,"end":306.084,"text":"一兆多嘛所以組長你已經多了一兆多然後每天在那邊哭窮然後那邊喊說快倒了這邊衛生紙買不出來了總統府連那個燈都打沒有電可以開連衛生紙 上廁所都沒有衛生紙連普渡要拜拜的時候乖乖都買不起好可憐喔"},{"start":307.403,"end":320.122,"text":"主席長好可憐喔好 那問你現在國防預算一次要提一兆兩千億是不是一兆兩千五百億那要不要讓他過"},{"start":321.707,"end":349.92,"text":"希望大院能夠支持希望委員支持我也支持啊那個一次過右手一過就是一兆2500億你今天3000億把各部會叫過來然後我好窮喔我好可憐喔那個一兆2500億是分8年對有分不管啦就是那麼大的一筆數字啊你每次來這邊就是要錢要錢你能不能哪一次來是講一個不要錢的事"},{"start":351.704,"end":359.331,"text":"然後要錢你又不溝通然後我們不同意好像我們是不是罪魁禍首都是問題出在我們那你要問問你們編的合不合理還有你有沒有來溝通過"},{"start":369.976,"end":382.009,"text":"從來沒有來溝通過那我問你為什麼在王金平 王院長的時代這個是風調雨順 國泰民安什麼事情都會圓滿解決你們有沒有嘗試溝通過"},{"start":384.809,"end":411.516,"text":"沒有 都沒溝通過啊每次來這邊演給大家看我們好可憐喔 我們不行啦你不行的話你明天 今天你隨時可以去委員那邊溝通了解清楚不是像今天所有的委員喊來喊去 不行的話長照會怎麼樣小朋友會怎麼念書都是語帶威脅的方式來挖坑給立委跳"},{"start":413.482,"end":414.923,"text":"省預算不是這樣子的吧明年的經濟成長率是多少另外一個單位說3點多今年年初的時候你講多少"},{"start":439.947,"end":446.671,"text":"今年的話就是去年啦去年的時候妳告訴我們經濟成長率是多少預估是多少妳講3點多變5點多"},{"start":459.123,"end":480.609,"text":"那今年經濟成長率也7.3多了嘛其實要給大家一個概念就是國庫其實是兵強馬壯國家是很有錢的啊你們不要說騙不懂的老百姓說什麼要做到3000億剛剛我隨便一講你不是講一兆2500億嗎"},{"start":484.523,"end":497.788,"text":"1兆2500億是分8年所以一年才1600多億你要想10年前我們的稅出也才1兆8000億現在你們稅出的預算是多少3兆多1兆8變到3兆多"},{"start":505.182,"end":529.056,"text":"各位啊 多了一兆五千億你還說什麼事情都動之不了什麼事情都非常的拮据這你聽不進去啊不是 我們是以國家要發展建設的一個相關的需要還人民福祉的一個需求所以我們是希望說這個預算能夠盡量來審查然後能夠來使用這樣"},{"start":530.433,"end":551.134,"text":"主委長 在現在可以說是國家財源非常豐沛的時候我們的負債 現在負債有多少負債是財政部負責的但是我們目前大概兩兆六千多吧國債中的情況現在是怎麼樣"},{"start":555.532,"end":581.359,"text":"你這樣什麼事情都要問財政部那你限財政部於不仁不義喔所以財政部在他大樓外面寫的國債中的數字你們通通不去看喔連主計長這個事情都不知道那全台灣有誰會知道所以國債中的部分連國家負債多少你都不知道目前是你這預算怎麼編啊"},{"start":583.123,"end":591.99,"text":"但是我們中央的國債中這是含地方的部分啦所以這個部分是本身好 那我請那個部長講給你聽總部長他都推給你啊那你要講兩句話嘛 對不對中華民國財政的情況好不好會不會破產現在的國債中是往下還是往上"},{"start":612.374,"end":619.44,"text":"委員對於債務的控管財政部一直都是非常的謹慎在做那國債中根據12月19號是253,000他是含長短債都算在內"},{"start":626.857,"end":632.141,"text":"那是屬於可控的範圍我們對於債務的控管都非常嚴謹是因為我們一定要遵守公債法那國家的財務狀況好還是不好國家的財務狀況在我們在相關的嚴謹的控制之下我們的財務狀況是應該在國際上是受到肯定的而且是獲得非常好的評價對啊我就覺得你做都是賺很多錢啊"},{"start":652.256,"end":680.723,"text":"而且稅收非常的充沛但是問題是委員你看嘛連續八年來稅收每年超徵大概超過八千多億通通都是有錢的但是稅收好同時我們也要多做建設然後對於民眾照顧所以在稅出的部分也希望大院能夠緊述審議那對於新興計畫新增計畫都能夠執行而且對於一一五年的預算數超過一四年的執行數也才能夠執行謝謝委員"},{"start":682.123,"end":698.213,"text":"現在一整天討論下來大家都知道結論了就是要溝通嘛對不對你執政的現在國會是少數就是40%即便是陳水扁的時代也是兩個字啊溝通再溝通"},{"start":700.148,"end":724.776,"text":"沒有事情解決不了問題你連溝通都不溝通連立法院113個立委的辦公室幾年去一次半年去一次多久見到韓院長半年才溝通這個不是正確的行為嗎多多請教一下上一任朱哲銘人家是怎麼做的啦好不好 謝謝"},{"start":726.155,"end":730.504,"text":"好 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謝謝主席那先請我們高工局 我們陳文瑞局長陳局長請是 委員好局長我想跟你討論一下那我們國道一號休息站啟用三年以來其實也發生多起的死亡車禍那今年年初還發生一件很嚴重造成四死四重傷那針對這一部分"},{"start":36.59,"end":63.882,"text":"外界一直質疑說設計不良不知道我們局長針對這部分內容有什麼說明跟委員報告就是說原來的設計我們有去檢核過是符合這個公路的路線的設計規範那不過就是說因為它確實就是說在陽梅休息站因為它剛好在這個舞陽高架的末端就是說我們這一個這個舞陽高架在最後下來以後那它大概就是說在那個地方它的線型包括"},{"start":64.282,"end":90.945,"text":"平面跟高度坡度都有做一些變化所以我們大概就是說請那個進入到休息站那個要減速的其實有一些的車輛確實是並沒有減速所以我們大概就是說也做過一些這個整個請相關的專家學者運安會有給我們一些建議所以我們大概做了一些修正那目前在12月10號我們已經在這個陽梅休息站的整個的一個現行我們已經修正完畢了"},{"start":93.12,"end":118.205,"text":"對 因為你們現在有去做動線的調整可是現在反而動線調整之後我不知道局長知不知道現在已經造成我們那個路段下孝前路那邊整個回堵造成大塞車我有去看跟委員報告因為那個地方其實它剛好就是這個舞陽高架的末端舞陽高架就是說高架段是兩個車道然後主線是三個車道"},{"start":119.045,"end":148.214,"text":"那我们现在高速公路局正在做的这一个是阳头段阳梅道头份那也是从阳梅休息站是起点所以它目前就是说它其实本来就是从高架的两车道跟主线的三车道最后要并入主线的三车道所以那个地方本来其实就是会有点筛那我们现在因为就是说我们的阳头段目前已经在进行设计跟发包作业了所以交围的部分要做一些调整可是之前"},{"start":149.054,"end":164.206,"text":"當然因為國道1號你們要去解決國道1號現在之前常常發生車禍的問題做一些動線的調整可是你為了解決那個問題做動線調整之後反而造成我們地方這個大賽車那沒有別的方法你這個變成"},{"start":165.867,"end":188.443,"text":"為了解決一個問題然後造成另外一個問題跟委員報告我們也有做一些相關的調整因為其實以前大概就是說這個車流的部分大家覺得說就是那一段的車流量特別的高那現在做一些調整的話其實我們大概在中壢的轉接道那個地方其實對於就是說下游的主線跟楊梅這個舞陽高架楊梅那一段"},{"start":191.265,"end":217.93,"text":"車流的擁塞的狀況我們會做一個資訊的發佈那也就是說讓民眾知道說他從中壢轉街道到底是要走平面的三個車道還是高架的兩個車道比較快另外也跟委員報告我們已經有做一些開放路間的這一個時段有提早開放因為他的尖峰的時段其實他擁塞就是稍微有提早所以我們把這個譬如說陽梅休息站到湖口"},{"start":218.51,"end":237.635,"text":"的路間的開放時段從早上7點提早到6點那目前的擁塞的狀況其實委員有提到是譬如說我們剛開始動線調整的時候他的擁塞長度比較長最近已經在縮了已經有在縮了那這一個我們會持續觀察那如果說能夠再做一些改善的我們會再做改善"},{"start":237.935,"end":259.903,"text":"我是建議我們還是要去做一個會刊不然這個問題其實本來一直都沒有這個嚴重塞車的問題因為你們動線去調整現在地方民眾都怨聲載道所以我覺得我們應該要去去做個會刊不然你針對路間開放只是針對尖峰時段大量車流的時候做一個疏解那畢竟不是一個常態"},{"start":260.723,"end":275.612,"text":"是不是應該要有更好的一個解決的方法委員如果辦會堪我們再跟委員做一個現場的一個說明因為有做相關的一個改善那目前的擁塞的這個情形有改善因為前面的車流大家可能比較就是說不習慣就是說這個動線的調整"},{"start":278.214,"end":294.441,"text":"好 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我可不可以邀請陳主席長請陳主席長"},{"start":13.615,"end":36.711,"text":"委員好主席長好 午安主席長你是優秀的公務人員你從基層幹起你的資歷也非常的豐富完整從在台北縣服務到省政府到台南市政府到中央部會那整個歷練過程你是會計出身也是在政治經濟科班的出身所以"},{"start":37.711,"end":61.373,"text":"我認為你個人對於預算法總預算如果沒有辦法如期審訊完成我們到底有哪些補救辦法跟措施在法規上或在過去的前例上我認為你應該是都有做過相關的功課你都應該知道有哪些辦法"},{"start":62.074,"end":83.732,"text":"我先說明過去也不是第一次嘲笑野大87年前我們預算如果沒有審訊的話有立法院議定補救的辦法有一個我們所謂的補救辦法你點頭你非常清楚87年之後我們用法律明定"},{"start":84.773,"end":101.081,"text":"有延續性的支出過去有去年有前年有大前年有我們可以運用如果預算沒有審訊完畢我們仍舊可以先行動之我想這個你也非常清楚你也點頭有延續性的預算這個到目前為止我所說的你都認同"},{"start":108.612,"end":132.288,"text":"好所以也沒有我先打斷到這裡也沒有去年在大罷免期間的廁所沒有衛生紙沒有預算沒有辦法省衛生紙中午開會沒有便當都沒有這些事情所以也有補助的辦法也有處理的方式好那在89年之後政黨輪替之後因為也同樣有"},{"start":134.489,"end":159.321,"text":"嘲笑野大的預算的問題所以我們要在預算法當中真定新興的資本門的支出即便是新的計劃在資本門支出的部分如果經過立法院的同意有一些挑出來即便是新的計劃跟民眾有關係有緊急需求甚至在國防部裡面的預算有一些部分新興計劃"},{"start":161.209,"end":174.567,"text":"有緊急需求仍舊可以挑出來只要立法院同意一樣可以先行動之有這個法碼第54條預算法第54條有這個法碼好我說到目前為止"},{"start":175.635,"end":200.244,"text":"其實我要強調的是就目前預算的僵局沒有辦法省的原因這是另外一個政治層面的因素但是就明年度的預算無論是延續性的預算或者是新的預算都有可以解套的方法跟方式當然我從新聞上有看到目前新增的預算舊的延續性的預算沒有問題我先請問在現場所有的官員"},{"start":204.744,"end":219.093,"text":"延續性的預算明年如果預算沒有省有吃愛難行的地方沒有辦法處理的你們舉手一下延續性的預算人事的 過去有的"},{"start":220.543,"end":248.648,"text":"有沒有問題沒有問題主席講我先講完我的時間我先講完也就是舊的延續性的預算大家都可以先行動之新的預算只要送上來經過立法院挑出來大家有共識仍舊可以處理有法可以處理而且這是預算法54條所以目前看來我們是有解套的方法"},{"start":249.707,"end":278.336,"text":"但是真正的政治原因就是主席長你也非常清楚現在立院跟行政的僵局在於你是公務人員出身你也這麼資歷這麼完整該編的預算無論是軍人的三萬塊的加薪無論是公教人員的停侃年金其實照理說立法院三讀通過其實就是要依法守法來去做處理"},{"start":279.144,"end":303.529,"text":"你前一陣子回答其他委員也是同樣的狀況公務人員依法行政不可以不編即便你認為軍人不可以一致的只有加三萬可能也要依不同的階級來做處理那你就提出不同的版本但是現在的僵局是你不提出你新的版本你要不編列你就叫違法所以主席長"},{"start":305.123,"end":326.843,"text":"行政院有沒有整理出哪些是新增計畫我有看到你們有整理出來我有看到今天的預算書你們也有討論過但是行政院長卓榮泰接受媒體攻擊在野黨的方式我是沒有辦法接受到目前為止我相信許多辦公室的同仁委員"},{"start":328.24,"end":355.14,"text":"都不清楚你新政計畫到底面對於現在今年度今年已經12月23號了新政24號新政預算到底有哪些你希望面對現在行政立法的僵局那1000億哪些你希望趕快出來行政院挑出來我們立法院先審各個辦公室至少我知道的國民黨團所有的委員不知道"},{"start":356.857,"end":376.173,"text":"你們就在那邊等著行政立法僵局繼續僵住卓榮泰所講的一千億的立法院行政院新增預算哪些是新的有緊急性的必要先處理的我們立委不知道只有從新聞裡面看到"},{"start":377.375,"end":391.606,"text":"所以說你們有真的想處理嗎我覺得沒有面對現在行政立法院的僵局你們沒有打算要處理你這不編列軍人的加薪公教人員所得替代率的停砍你又不處理"},{"start":394.408,"end":419.827,"text":"現在的僵局真的有緊急需要的你又不送出來立法院審也不拿進來溝通談判這就是現在我覺得你們擺爛不管持續的按照過去大罷免的方式抹黑在野黨這就是你們處理的原則所以我現在其實都有法可以依據無論是舊的延續性的預算或新的延續性54條都有解決的方案另外"},{"start":420.848,"end":438.017,"text":"主席長我要請問你除了預算法的規定之外我十月份我有問你我有跟您質詢過就是說針對於直轄縣市的補助辦法補助款的補助辦法沒有修正過沒有修正過的預告的問題當時主席長你回答我說"},{"start":444.181,"end":455.377,"text":"縣市政府的補助辦法要不要預告你說因為這是涉及細節性技術性這是屬於行政規則所以不需要預告你還記得你當時回答我的對不對"},{"start":458.399,"end":466.664,"text":"補助辦法對於各縣市的補助辦法你的認知是行政規則你回答我這是屬於細節性技術性的事項我現在不需要跟你吵架但是你現在看你們自己的同仁對於各縣市的補助辦法他就是一個命令他當然就要預告"},{"start":481.189,"end":495.787,"text":"他當然就要預告對於各縣市的補助辦法涉及到各縣市經費的執行 預算的執行這當然關係到人民的權益怎麼會是只有細節性 技術性的事情"},{"start":498.181,"end":523.408,"text":"當然有 當然有你們自己直接寫這是命令喔好 幫我看下一張 朱澤民主席長當時在民國106年的時候他也是一個命令 他也有預告他也有預告怎麼會你的認知跟朱澤民差這麼多涉及到地方各縣市的補助款的部分可以不要預告"},{"start":525.216,"end":541.776,"text":"我剛剛一開始我就說你歷練非常完整你也是當時公務人員高考過的非常優秀行政資歷非常完整怎麼會是行政規則呢他當然就是一個命令當然要預告當然要公告啊"},{"start":542.995,"end":563.26,"text":"因為它本身是屬於對於內部的一個行為沒有對外發生它相關的一個法律效果所以這個部分的一個法規命令它可以不用預告 是這樣妳的同仁就直接打妳臉它就是一個命令 它當然要預告啊妳再看前一張 妳的同仁就直接寫要它是屬於命令啊"},{"start":565.746,"end":593.191,"text":"114年8月29號行政院令修正直轄市縣市的補助辦它就是一個命令它就是要預告啊對 它是屬於法規命令但是它不是說對於不特定的人民的一個所生的一個所設的事項所以這個部分不是屬於非公告的一個事項是這樣子主席長你的同仁跟朱澤民年代很多應該都是重疊都是一樣的第一"},{"start":594.557,"end":613.178,"text":"怎麼會對法規的認知有這麼大的差異我剛都說你是從基層人員出來依法行政照理說你應該非常清楚什麼是要預告什麼是行政規則什麼是有涉及到人民的權益這當然有涉及到人民權益怎麼會朱哲銘當時的組計長都認為說這有涉及到人民權益所以要預告你認為不用預告"},{"start":615.14,"end":639.446,"text":"怎麼會是兩個標準啊你們底下公務人員主席處裡面底下都是一樣的同仁怎麼會有不同認知的標準我覺得主席長我認為你是優秀的公務人員不要因為換了一個政府之後就對應對著幹因為公務人員應該要依法守法這是我要提醒你的地方以上好謝謝李委員接下來我們請王世堅委員"}]}},{"id":"166648","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166648","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60cde6bd527c79224c5afbbbb5adc5c862d81c25c0c566a88a88b122b0778d429c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:18:50 - 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Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T11:16:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T11:24:44+08:00","duration":480,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.95846875,"end":6.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.40909375,"end":27.419093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.11096875,"end":28.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.21221875,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.95471875,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.97159375,"end":28.988468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.23284375,"end":37.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.27409375,"end":40.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.83471875,"end":55.954718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.85159375,"end":43.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.289718750000006,"end":45.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.141593750000006,"end":48.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.954718750000005,"end":60.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.65471875,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.44346875,"end":66.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.51409375,"end":70.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.53096875,"end":67.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.54346875,"end":68.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.58534375,"end":92.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.17471875000001,"end":79.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.20221875,"end":136.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.77346875,"end":158.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.92596875,"end":161.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.01409375,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.59596875,"end":164.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.62971875000002,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.66346875000002,"end":174.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.24846875,"end":180.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.40784375,"end":183.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.36096875,"end":184.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.56346875,"end":188.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.74409375000002,"end":193.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.46096875,"end":191.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.66346875000002,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.82346875000002,"end":199.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.69596875000002,"end":224.04659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.08034375000003,"end":236.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.30221875,"end":236.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.39909375000002,"end":241.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.57971875,"end":241.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.61346875,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.96784375000001,"end":242.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.42346875,"end":262.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.11221875,"end":268.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.47846875,"end":278.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.62159375000005,"end":271.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.95784375,"end":280.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.79721875,"end":282.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.75034375,"end":285.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.97784375000003,"end":293.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.11159375,"end":301.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.43971875,"end":304.21971875},{"speaker":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三十年後這個老保的三萬三三十年後誰知道是不是三萬三是不是更高不是 我們都是用同樣的推估來算的"},{"start":193.871,"end":218.001,"text":"那他們會認為說老農領的比較多不過應該是要比的話應該是自體的儲金的比例對 應該是退休歸退休然後津貼歸津貼但是津貼的部分像勞保的部分的老年給付他每個月所繳的金額跟農民所繳的78塊他也有差那國民年金的話他一個月也繳到1250塊左右所以基本上這些給付"},{"start":218.641,"end":240.837,"text":"也要去檢視他的每個月的就是繳的這個金額來計算那現在的覆蓋率是41%左右然後年輕人是30%那我看到你們的那個計畫就說你們對農業的經營的準備金有給他們兩年大概72萬左右對 一年36萬對 那有多少人來申請這個錢那誘因是怎麼樣 為什麼不能提高"},{"start":241.621,"end":268.19,"text":"不過我想我們為了這是我想農業從事農業的唯一的沒有一個行業說他退休以後只要從事那個行業就一個月相當於一個月有3萬塊這是只有農業從事農農的部分那這個部分現在目前大概覆蓋率可以領到大概900多人那然後已經在領的大概從來申請這個方案的話大概是3分39%左右大概將近4成"},{"start":268.81,"end":282.467,"text":"所以說也有增加的一個比例那我們再看說國民黨的版本是一萬五民進黨是一萬二你覺得合理的大概是多少錢不過我剛才說的就是我考慮的第一個因素就是"},{"start":283.82,"end":311.859,"text":"本身基數跟現在的物價指數這是一個關係第二個就是說我們也考慮他過往的提繳的金額嘛跟其他的因為最重要的就是以行政的團隊一體的角度來講我們考慮農民老農經濟的時候也會同時考慮到八大社會基金你說版本差不多已經確定了嗎對確定了大概是落在我們是落在所有的委員的上下線中間所以不知道你還不能公佈答案"},{"start":312.284,"end":341.17,"text":"因為政院沒有核定沒有通過院會我們是不能對外說明的那我們是期待能夠把這個落實就是說能夠反映我們的物價指數那現在的外食的那個比例又這麼高我們現在的消費指數又這麼高我是覺得當然如果折衷一萬三一萬四當然是樂見那我們再看我們原住民的部分我想知道排富你剛才說排富到一萬兩千人左右那原住民有沒有被排富的"},{"start":342.478,"end":365.276,"text":"原住民有沒有被排富的沒有沒有統計這個部分是沒有統計還是不知道沒有統計沒有統計我們沒有把它分我是希望知道有一個這個我想我們可以來了解那一直在排富的話就是大概我們現在是五百萬嘛那麼現在的房子很容易就超過五百萬我們現在大部分的委員是提到八百萬以上到一千萬你覺得合理的數字大概是多少"},{"start":366.415,"end":385.53,"text":"我相信我們後續提出來的版本應該在委員會應該可以被接受OK好那我們現在有一個提到一個重點就是原住民的部分能不能降低到55歲的情侶就是因為我們的平均移民的問題可是每次提到這樣的一個公平性的時候會覺得說很像不能用族群來看那你認為呢"},{"start":387.031,"end":402.666,"text":"不過我想我們在考慮特別是剛才我也了解原住民委員會在他們的報告裡面有講到他們有統計到原住民的全體的漁民比全國還低可是當我在處理老農津貼的時候我的族群是以"},{"start":403.907,"end":425.595,"text":"從事農業這些老農津貼的人的餘命然後這個餘命是比較高的是 可以更細緻一點比如說他確實是從事農業然後他的男性的比例平均是82歲那我的意思是說可以就更細緻來細分的時候我是覺得從實際的那個年齡的差距去算這樣可以更"},{"start":426.535,"end":448.474,"text":"可以更說服國人說我們原住民的平均餘命在農人的時候大概是多少我們才可以更精緻來算大概是幾歲可以提前這樣子對 我跟委員稍微說明我們現在目前統計的就是我沒有分男女的部分就是65歲零老農津貼的這些人的平均餘命是82.7歲他比全國的80.8歲還高"},{"start":450.716,"end":475.973,"text":"所以我也謝謝委員的提醒我們後續會去更細分男的女的還有從65歲可能每5年每10年當作一個層級去做這樣的資訊讓我們的所有的原住民朋友們了解我們並沒有歧視他們我們只是用比較全國性的一致的標準去處理那謝謝部長用更細緻的方式來計算我們平均餘命那謝謝你的努力 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166646","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166646","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d600e42b37c57300d2d8f4e93bf07b6087fd81c25c0c566a88afb776576558faad05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"11:08:21 - 11:16:38","影片長度":"00:08:17","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T11:08:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T11:16:38+08:00","duration":497,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.11846875,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.167843750000003,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.496593750000002,"end":28.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.91659375,"end":41.408468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.98221875,"end":55.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.579093750000006,"end":56.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.61284375,"end":56.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.62971875,"end":56.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.84909375,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.03471875,"end":57.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.06846875,"end":57.338468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.338468750000004,"end":57.962843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.962843750000005,"end":62.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.07596875,"end":66.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.69971875,"end":68.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.67846875000001,"end":73.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.48409375,"end":71.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.85909375,"end":74.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.02346875,"end":76.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.07409375,"end":75.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.03159375,"end":80.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.80784375,"end":78.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.79471875,"end":81.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.26721875,"end":84.27096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.36409375000001,"end":82.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.97971875,"end":91.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.76346875,"end":94.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.34534375000001,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.93971875000001,"end":102.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.91784375,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.02721875,"end":109.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.01409375,"end":110.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.75221875000001,"end":115.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.62096875,"end":113.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.25346875000001,"end":115.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.35034375000001,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.97471875000001,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.02346875,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.97596875000002,"end":136.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.44409375,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.31971875000002,"end":155.34846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.45471875,"end":150.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.34846875000002,"end":169.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.35034375,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.97471875000002,"end":171.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.91971875000002,"end":174.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.01221875000002,"end":174.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.31596875000002,"end":180.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.39096875,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.46221875,"end":184.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.16221875000002,"end":186.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.49971875,"end":186.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.87096875,"end":187.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPE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部長今天大家在討論老農津貼但我想先請問一下我們農民退休儲金現在它的普及率高不高"},{"start":29.966,"end":55.223,"text":"如果以實際可以參加的22萬多人的話現在普及率大概4成那如果包括曾經領過的話已經高達5成了但是最重要的是年輕的人他的比例比較低所以這是我們退休儲金修改的時候的一個重點希望說能夠提高一些誘因讓年輕的這些農民能夠參加退休儲金"},{"start":56.676,"end":80.25,"text":"那現在現行的退休儲金是不是每個月繳每個月繳但是可以六個月之內可以補繳六個月之內可以補繳當你的規定還是每個月繳吧對基本上是每個月繳對嘛你講的是六個月內補繳嘛那是補繳嘛對不對部長"},{"start":85.069,"end":95.548,"text":"我們以前念書都有說春耕秋收 冬場我們種田的人有每個月有收入嗎"},{"start":97.964,"end":115.052,"text":"要看你種什麼作物欸 種什麼作物每個月有收入蔬菜蔬菜 蔬菜一個月以上吧沒有 蔬菜有的快的話三個禮拜到四個禮拜你是說空心菜吧沒有 所以我說蔬菜類嘛短期葉菜類 應該是短期葉菜類好 那種蔬菜的占多少人"},{"start":116.62,"end":135.061,"text":"這個我可能要查一下這個可能我要查一下而且種蔬菜的他每個月如果這個月遇到有水患 水災或什麼他有沒有收成所以我們才會再設計說如果說你沒有辦法每個月繳的話你六個月之內的話你可以補繳有這樣的一個機制嗎沒有"},{"start":137.509,"end":147.657,"text":"你說有這個機制 六個月補繳我覺得 我一開始就覺得每個月都要繳我不一定有錢繳"},{"start":150.862,"end":168.848,"text":"你有沒有覺得這個是這個不普及一個很大的原因不過其實我們在座談會倒是沒有農民提出這個因為我們有設計一個六個月也可以繳的情況之下他們大概對這個議題比較沒有太大的一個反應如果六個月他還是沒錢繳"},{"start":170.387,"end":181.871,"text":"那就就沒了嗎就中斷啊對啊對啊好那種田的啦比如說我種水果的我可能一年才一收是不是啊"},{"start":186.212,"end":212.627,"text":"不過我覺得你要種水果是不是一年一收我想這個邏輯不大必須釐清不是不對 必須釐清因為他不可能說他一年收了以後他一年收了以後他收到一筆錢他可以每個月分配到他的生活費什麼不可能說他收了一次一天就花光所以他一年一收但是他所收的這些利潤他可以維持他一年之中的一個生活"},{"start":214.605,"end":243.698,"text":"他一定這一年一定有收嗎 如果颱風來他有得收嗎這要看颱風的情況啦你就回答我嘛 種水果是不是一年一收嘛對 一年一收啊 對嘛 我小時候我們都在種水果的啊我們在種奶汁的啊 如果剛好拍檸檬 我跟你講那年年少就沒了 要去跟人家借錢 你知道嗎借錢過一季 你知道嗎"},{"start":247.935,"end":267.216,"text":"我了解很多農民會遇到這種情況我跟委員報告其實農業的經營量也非常多然後特別是有這種多年生的果樹的部分一年一收但是他收完以後的收入他會做一年度的分配他不可能完全不分配我跟你講分配是一件事"},{"start":270.383,"end":284.39,"text":"還以前 古早時代啦我就沒有啦 我要先去跟人家寫啦去集會店嘛 去店嘛啦這先寫 我修成之後 我才行李啦有沒有這種情況"},{"start":285.731,"end":302.666,"text":"以前有 現在是沒得記帳但可能要跟親朋好友要先借錢現在的部分也有一些特別是像肥料的部分他們也是特別是有器做的部分他們也是你不要講器做"},{"start":305.188,"end":324.462,"text":"我現在就跟你講會不會有我說的這些問題但是那個比例不高有沒有有嘛有嘛你也承認有嘛對不對那你如果承認有的情況之下你說我六個月了我沒有腳就沒有了"},{"start":325.362,"end":354.731,"text":"很多人會因為這樣而卻步那我們呢 你看喔我們比如說勞工保險他也可以申請他幾個月 三個月或六個月或怎樣繳一次 對不對那我們對於這些農民我們可不可以也讓他不要每個月我們也可以放寬 他也可以申請他比如說半年繳一次或是一年繳一次"},{"start":356.209,"end":369.578,"text":"有沒有思考過這個方向不過委員的建議我想我們可以很仔細的去思考就是讓他一段時間繳一次但是也不能無限的啦當然啦我沒有要求我剛講的沒有無限"},{"start":372.66,"end":394.373,"text":"我願意回來請我們的同仁去做一個規劃看看可不可以除了現在每個月繳可以延半年以外是不是可以說你可以申請或者是三個月六個月然後最多一年之內一定要繳用這樣的方式我願意請同仁來做一個更仔細的評估我覺得需要這樣子啦"},{"start":394.893,"end":420.463,"text":"就我所理解的 很多人是為了每個月繳他卻不 有哪兩種人 一個比較年輕的我才要剛回來 我才要剛開始做我每個月 其他的生活負擔也有有的是比較年紀大的 他本來對這個就不了解他想說 我每個月又沒有固定的收入我每個月固定要繳"},{"start":422.515,"end":446.806,"text":"這個讓大家有一些就是不敢就去做因為它變成它每個月有一些負擔當然以政府的立場來講我政府也幫你出這個是一個很好的政策但一個很好的政策我覺得我們要實際上真正務農人他的收入情況我們要去考量尤其如果有遇到栽開或什麼他那一年搞不好還賠錢"},{"start":448.632,"end":468.616,"text":"不過總結一句只要能夠提高他們的覆蓋率的任何的方法農業部會一定盡可能的去做調整這個部分我想我可以這樣子的承諾好 所以我說的你如果可以不要每個月繳讓他們可以申請什麼的你們會回去研究"},{"start":469.096,"end":491.981,"text":"對 我們一定會回去研究如果可行的話我們就會來做我覺得一定可行你們去研究看看這個其他的保險其他的什麼也都有這樣做了不是憑空而來的我們為了我們的農民我覺得應該要這樣子做你們回去好好的評估一下可以好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166645","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166645","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d602cfc7d9fa2cba2c98f4e93bf07b6087fd81c25c0c566a88afb776576558faad05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"10:45:33 - 11:08:15","影片長度":"00:22:42","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T10:45:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T11:08:15+08:00","duration":1362,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4822187500000001,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.337843750000001,"end":8.012843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.434718750000002,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.965343750000002,"end":15.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.011593750000003,"end":53.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.744093750000005,"end":57.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.182218750000004,"end":76.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.85721875,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.51471875000001,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.750968750000006,"end":63.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.25534375000001,"end":78.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.36034375,"end":79.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.30534375,"end":83.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.73096875,"end":84.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.43534375,"end":87.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.95409375,"end":88.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.49409375,"end":92.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.97846875,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.02909375,"end":93.72096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.09221875,"end":107.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.74409375,"end":107.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.53721875000001,"end":116.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.29471875,"end":121.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.91909375,"end":130.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.33534375000002,"end":139.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.05971875,"end":146.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.95784375,"end":146.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.80971875,"end":148.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.31159375000001,"end":149.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.22284375,"end":149.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.66159375,"end":153.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.02846875,"end":151.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.34034375000002,"end":168.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.77409375000002,"end":158.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.74284375000002,"end":170.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.26159375,"end":177.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.28659375,"end":173.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.85971875,"end":178.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.07909375,"end":186.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.44909375,"end":189.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.49534375000002,"end":205.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.97784375,"end":205.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.36596875,"end":205.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.53471875000002,"end":227.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.79284375,"end":228.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.67034375,"end":240.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.31409375,"end":279.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.59909375,"end":313.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.69971875000005,"end":284.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.26846875,"end":289.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.39909375,"end":290.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.63534375,"end":290.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.31096875000003,"end":318.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3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當時剛好是準備下班的時間那我希望勞保局可以針對這些受害者"},{"start":39.66,"end":57.37,"text":"還有他們的家屬提供必要的協助包含勞保勤領的行政流程我們是不是可以加速或者是你用專案的方式來處理一同來整理這些所有相關的相關的受害者還有家屬等等請問這個您做得到嗎"},{"start":58.46,"end":84.597,"text":"是跟委員這邊做報告委員剛才所提的這個我們一定遵照辦理那也做一個補充就是我們已經有跟台北市政府消防局這邊取得了受傷者傷亡的一個名單那他們的家保狀況目前都有掌握後續我們也會積極跟他們的家屬來做聯繫那提供一個在行政流程上面的一個協助好那可以一週內跟您要這個報告嗎我們就後續的一個處理情形我們再跟委員這邊做報告好大概多久以內"},{"start":85.692,"end":107.63,"text":"因為這個我們要跟我們先就後續他們的權益因為這個會涉及個案部分那是不是給我們一個作業時間大概我們先就一個他們涉及的權益部分一周內先跟委員這邊做說明那可能個案的一個狀況因為他是保險給付的申請所以會涉及他們在給付上面申請的一個相關流程那這可能不見得是一個禮拜可以完成"},{"start":108.598,"end":115.029,"text":"好那我們大概兩個禮拜再跟局長要這個答覆好嗎是好謝謝局長局長請回那接下來請陳俊記部長"},{"start":122.249,"end":145.971,"text":"部長我們看這個新聞是有說美國的國務院官員有來台灣那據我私底下的了解也確實有部會接觸報載是說他見了好多的官員其中就包含農業部那我是想請問您有沒有辦法對這件事情給全國人民一個消息您是不是有見到有或是沒有還是您是沒有辦法沒有"},{"start":146.852,"end":168.628,"text":"你沒有見到我沒有見到他們沒有來拜會應該不是我們沒有見到應該他們沒來拜會那最後這幾次因為上次距離談判關稅的質詢已經是好幾個月之前了當時我們還認為我們是在前面的名單可是很顯然我們現在可能已經是全球倒數的談判名單但是幾乎是快談完了是嗎我想"},{"start":171.434,"end":184.045,"text":"後面一點不代表不好啦因為有更多的這些細節現在大概都已經確定了那我們應該可以樂觀以對的去針對因為我想我們的談判團隊農業部是參與有參與這個談判"},{"start":186.667,"end":205.084,"text":"我們有派人農業部有派人我們有參與我們有參與所有的談判過程那我們也一直堅守的我們當初對國人所說的我們在確保糧食安全的情況之下我們一定會讓我們的產業永續發展維持我們的競爭力那這個前提之下我們持續去爭取我們應該有的這些好"},{"start":205.604,"end":228.315,"text":"但還是有很多農民有擔心啦因為比如說像這張圖就是許多農民顯示他們的心境嘛他擔心美國的大米進口台灣的好米會失去競爭力那我想知道說部長你應該也有看過這本嗎這本是美國對全世界各國的貿易作出報告以及包括對台灣的指教這個你應該知道嗎這個我知道"},{"start":229.155,"end":257.401,"text":"所以你要不要说说看在2025年美国的这本贸易报告里面关于台湾的部分提到了哪些跟您跟农产品比较有关系的事物呢我想第一个部分有关于这边提到台湾稻米的这个价格的上限机制我觉得他讲的是一个底价的一个机制但是相对的因为我们国家有我们国家的一个对外的采购采购的一个机制那分两个一个是"},{"start":258.101,"end":275.232,"text":"最低的底價往上加 價高的得一個是越低越好有兩個不同的機制那過往其實這個議題在台美雙邊的諮商的時候都一直談過然後我們也讓他們充分了解我們的定價的一個機制所以在這個部分大概沒有什麼特別問題"},{"start":276.132,"end":291.542,"text":"那以基改跟非基改的部分那基本上我們相關的基改食品一定經過衛福部的一個安全檢查但是以農業部的立場我們到目前為止還沒有同意任何一個基改產品在台灣的田裡種植這個政策是不會變的"},{"start":292.863,"end":313.896,"text":"然後有關於美豬美牛的部分那基本上產地標示就是原來的產地標示那這個部分是屬於衛福部的一個全責的部分那我想衛福部應該會有一個比較好的一個對外的一個說明特別是不管是萊克多巴胺也好我們現在目前公告的這個MRL的值都是符合安全標準的"},{"start":314.366,"end":328.386,"text":"好那我做一個統整第一你有談判到大米嗎對吧沒有聽起來你有應該所有的農產品都有談所有的農產品不是只有大米所有的農產品然後對於標示這部分剛剛你所說的你是不會退讓對吧"},{"start":329.568,"end":351.491,"text":"你還是會繼續標示我說標示的部分是衛福部的全責因為我們農業部是負責產地的部分那關於萊劑跟以行受體素的管制這個你也說是衛福部的全責對嗎對 那我剛才只強調說現在目前我們公告的萊劑跟相關的這個標準都是符合食品安全規範的部分"},{"start":352.873,"end":361.789,"text":"因为像美牛的部分也是很多燃气的部分这本书里面他还提到关于农药的残留的允许值这一点你们有谈到吗"},{"start":362.304,"end":386.847,"text":"我想我剛才說的我們在談判的過程中包括了關稅的議題也包括非關稅的議題嘛然後他們談該面都非常非常非常多元這本書裡面講的大部分都是非關稅的貿易比例所以我剛提的都是非關稅的貿易比例所以那個農藥的部分其實在平常的雙邊的會議就一直會在談這個議題所以它不是一個突然跑出來的議題"},{"start":387.895,"end":393.407,"text":"好但是這本裡面都是要求你們要放寬等等的所以我要問的是這個"},{"start":395.034,"end":417.83,"text":"我不了解因為我沒有很實際的去逐筆逐頁去看這本報告裡面但是我所了解就是所有的這些農藥的殘留我們有我們的標準所以進口是依照我們的標準去處理的所以你的標準會不會有改變這個是你要告訴我們針對農藥的部分我所了解應該是沒有"},{"start":418.766,"end":438.313,"text":"好那再來呢這個就是大家對於你們出去談判可能覺得會有很大的影響的你覺得最大的影響會是什麼我想我們因為在整個談判結果最後沒有公佈之前我想我們只能說我們還是捍衛著我們的糧食安全"},{"start":440.376,"end":463.499,"text":"那我跟你說現在當然第一擔心的是稻米嘛第二再來是豬肉第三是雞肉的畜牧業也是緊張的不得了那為什麼本期今天需要跟你討論是因為我上次在這邊質詢的時候我是問衛福部的官員那當然現在他已經卸任了可是他當時答應我的是會以國人的安全為最高的指導原則因為您剛有提到他們是負責去做茶廠的嘛"},{"start":465.08,"end":489.013,"text":"那為什麼要講這些呢是因為我們每次都是從新聞看到可是比如說之前的石破茂他在每次談判的前後都會跟國人開記者會包括談什麼回來跟國會報告並且他上節目NHK就說到食安的問題是不可以妥協的啊等等的那我們會希望說而不是一個突襲式的宣布這點你可以同意嗎"},{"start":489.81,"end":510.917,"text":"波向所有的談判沒有人在談判過程中隨時去洩露我們的底線那我想我們在談判的一個最大原則一定是保護農民權益確保我們糧食安全跟我們的產業永續這個絕對不會變的所以你剛才講的不管是大米不管是豬肉不管是雞肉我想我們應該對台灣的農產品要有更多的信心"},{"start":511.477,"end":529.448,"text":"我們曾經在WTO的時候也擔心了好一陣子可是從上次加入WTO到現在我們的整個農業的GDP也提高了非常多部長我們就是希望你不要突然的宣布對農民的一個改變好不好然後接下來要問就剛剛有很多人提到這個"},{"start":530.809,"end":551.297,"text":"老年農民福利津貼暫行條例本期現在是要跟你討論他的名稱啦因為這個制度早就已經不是暫時的安排他已經實行超過30年並且他給付的對象啊資格啊行政流程都非常的穩定之前法律名稱用暫時只是因為只是因為當時制度尚未成熟條件還沒有明確那"},{"start":552.857,"end":570.877,"text":"現在呢農民他需要的是一個穩定可以預期的生活保障而不是在一個名稱上暗示隨時有可能結束的法律那也有很多學者提到是不是可以來定位他改變他的名稱在這邊想要問部長有沒有想過要改名刪除戰刑這兩個字"},{"start":571.909,"end":597.219,"text":"不過我想我們會配合國家的年金改革委員會的一些相關的一個決議因為暫行其實多這兩個字不會因為這兩個字就對農民就不照顧了那是在法律的位階上面來講那我想這個部分我想因為國家有個年金改革委員會的部分我想會充分的討論然後如果說他需要改革我覺得我們也樂意配合好那你可以一個月給我們一個書面答覆嗎"},{"start":599.158,"end":618.772,"text":"這個因為責任 不是就是我們沒辦法說決定說要改或不改因為這是牽涉到整個社福基金的國進改革的一個委員會裡面的一個決議那如果說有適當的決議或者是其他的部分但是我們也支持把這個戰情拿掉啦好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":636.849,"end":656.234,"text":"對,你怎麼知道?"},{"start":679.804,"end":683.78,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1358.581,"end":1360.172,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來請張宏祿委員來做詢問"}]}},{"id":"166644","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166644","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d6011d02b24e29932c499d297ff50ba03ded81c25c0c566a88a17b6f3aed10b788e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:12:34 - 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早安好剛剛其實 朝委在一開始的時候讓農場的這些商品可以有機會透過我們的國會頻道被全民了解我覺得是 本期是非常支持的 因為"},{"start":25.921,"end":35.595,"text":"我知道其實我們在農場的經營上面也都希望是能夠盡量的各自有獲利因為這個都是挹注到接下來我們的安置基金當中讓我們的這些退下來的這些"},{"start":40.903,"end":59.538,"text":"榮民朋友不論是就學或就醫上面非常重要的基金喔那麼但是在這個委員會在召開的同時在財政委員會其實現在也正在討論就是因為距離這個2026年只剩下十幾天不到這個不到10天那麼馬上新的年度就來了"},{"start":60.399,"end":86.709,"text":"那麼我們知道就是還有一些新增的預算如果2026年的預算沒有通過的話那麼這些新計劃就不能實施那這個部分本席也認為就是一方面我們要讓這個退役的弟兄榮民朋友們能夠有好的就業就學或是其他就醫的基金之外其實包括像很多東西也不是只是榮民朋友包括"},{"start":87.769,"end":105.468,"text":"這個全民也會受到影響的像這個北榮的新大樓這個是全民都在也需要使用到的這個部分其實我也希望利用今天委員會的時間也要讓關注這個議題的朋友也要知道就是其實這個退府會"},{"start":107.029,"end":129.01,"text":"尤其是像今天我們看到的這些農場啦雖然他是盈虧自負但是其實很多裡面涵蓋的東西也跟全民相關所以預算被卡住雖然可以依照2025年的計畫來做實行跟執行但是新的計畫就無法來實施這個影響到的其實不是只有榮民朋友是全民都有那另外一個其實"},{"start":130.992,"end":148.942,"text":"本席要提醒的就是像這個部分如果新的計畫無法實施的時候造成哪些影響我也希望退伏會要對外的讓民眾知道不然有的時候會認為說怎麼該做承諾要做沒有做那這個部分的話我希望退伏會副主委這裡要多來做說明不然的話這個鍋就變成是你們要杯"},{"start":155.225,"end":175.618,"text":"好 那因為剛剛沈博洋委員已經問了 那我就來詢問另外一個問題喔 就是我知道我們退輔會全台有19所的榮民服務處 那麼16間榮民國民之家榮譽國民之家 那這些機構當然職員跟志工是長期在服務榮民那付出心血 本席是肯定的 但是"},{"start":176.738,"end":199.991,"text":"這種所謂的內部人員造成的所謂一顆老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥的這個狀況那就是在這些輔導員或者是甚至於是堂主堂長或者是志工隊的隊長然後堂長自己就類似監守自盜這樣的狀況其實是一直都發生的本席特別整理了從1993年"},{"start":201.932,"end":224.392,"text":"到現在2024年其實在不一樣的地方都有發生但是我們知道其實在相關的管理辦法當中就有針對榮民重要財務的作業原則那麼說如果超過一定的數額是需要奉長官簽核那因為時間有限我就救板橋榮家輔導員這個案子照理說"},{"start":228.135,"end":245.551,"text":"存摺 硬件 密碼應該是要分開來的但是為什麼這一個輔導員兼團長可以擅自針對三個榮民的存款然後來提出349萬元那麼問題到底是發生在什麼地方"},{"start":250.251,"end":258.64,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們諸委也非常重視這個問題也親自開了一些檢討會那這個原因我要請那個業管處處理報告"},{"start":262.148,"end":279.225,"text":"委員好 我叫副處長跟委員說明舊板橋這個案子這個輔導員他本身是一個專業設公司那我們是主動發掘因為在我們的集合過程中在交接的過程他因為執法犯法他利用這個下系來做這個"},{"start":281.287,"end":296.036,"text":"這個不道德的動作啦所以我們直接當時了解之後就把他約談他本來不承認後來我們跟他小禹大議之後他承認之後我們就移送這個這個廉政署那這個案子我們"},{"start":297.441,"end":326.902,"text":"發生之後我們就直接檢討我們大概在保管機和各方面那重新做了一個檢討在這些下系的部分已經做了一個補強把這些管理的機制這個監督方跟執行方把它區分那確實板橋農家在這裡面有一些在執行的時候沒有這麼落實因為他們在第一線的時候有時候執行就便衣行事我們會裡面除了召開這個教育訓練之外"},{"start":327.402,"end":341.272,"text":"我們每一個單位都在不斷的自我檢討那每個月都會來查核這個事故我們希望以後不會再發生這樣的事情好 所以署長的意思就是說其實本來存單也就是存摺 硬件 密碼是應該分開的但是是因為這個板橋榮家本身他們就是有所謂的便宜形式的狀況其他的榮家沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":354.781,"end":358.763,"text":"那麼像這樣的狀況其實照理說應該是每年都至少要集合一次嘛那麼所以說你們是集合的時候發現的嗎那麼其他的融價會不會也出現同樣的狀況因為這個一旦這個事件發生是因為包括銀行的行員也覺得奇怪對不對然後回來通報嘛"},{"start":374.972,"end":385.999,"text":"那麼有沒有說同樣的狀況因為沒有特別去集合所以發現為了方便所以就把硬件存摺兩個放在一起現在其他的農家也都是分開的嗎"},{"start":387.011,"end":409.177,"text":"都是分開的那這個案子是我們當初在兩個單位在交界的時候主動發現的那我們會裡面的規定每年至少集合一次發生這個事情我們救養處也檢討對各農家我們要求在三個月內全部清查把所有的案子全部看一遍那目前來看的話確實是有但是沒有這些弊端以後我們還會持續的來加強"},{"start":411.391,"end":438.019,"text":"好 那麼最後因為時間有限我只想問一個問題就是我特別去研究這個案子我為什麼只拿這個案子除了這個案子是發生在比較接近的時間點就是發生在2024年也就是去年的時候另外一個我覺得非常奇怪的地方是你們發現了之後那麼因為對檢方來講他認為他是同樣一個犯嫌但是他把這樣的一個犯行"},{"start":439.539,"end":458.549,"text":"就等於是在好幾個我們的榮民身上所來實施這個犯罪行為所以本來檢方是要求院方要處以重刑的但是因為他去自首所以反而變成了可以檢刑我想請問的是為什麼是讓他去自首然後而得以可以檢刑"},{"start":466.603,"end":474.23,"text":"這個不是一個我覺得在我們處理上面應該要好好來面對的犯罪行為嗎那這個過程當中有沒有問題照理說你們祖國主動發現主動移送他為什麼會變成自首因為我們知道我們在法律上面如果自首是可以予以減刑的那這個過程當中沒有上下交鄉賊嗎沒有想要袒護他嗎"},{"start":497.867,"end":525.45,"text":"跟主委報告 我是政務部處處長是那因為這個案子我們發現了以後我們就會說先做一個行政調查在還沒行政調查之前我們不知道到底事情怎麼樣因為在行政調查中我們在約談他的時候他就已經主動承認所以當然這個主動承認的部分我們當然就會詢問他你是不是願意自首那他也願意自首所以我們就帶著他到廉政署去自首那也是這個動作讓他有減刑的機會"},{"start":526.391,"end":533.358,"text":"那基本上就是因為我們在做行政審查 他就已經承認了那既然已經承認的話 當然就是按照有的步驟去做處理"},{"start":535.137,"end":558.577,"text":"我本席在這個部分我覺得他是一個錯誤的示範當然你們為了方便查案所以說好就跟他詢問然後呢就讓他自首但是我為什麼說是個錯誤的示範那會變成是教導這些未來想要犯罪的人我查到了我竟然被抓到了我就自首然後退府會會帶著他去自首他原本是應該檢方基本上本來認為說這個"},{"start":564.059,"end":576.357,"text":"范嫻她是屬於想像競合犯就是一個犯罪行為觸犯數個罪名但是因為帶著去自首反而最後呢是踐請減輕其刑"},{"start":579.42,"end":597.328,"text":"那我自己個人認為啦在這個質詢台上我把這個點出來是我當然知道退府會站在你們希望能夠結案或者是說把讓他認罪的狀況底下你們認為他已經認了罪但是我相信他也是證據確鑿在這個部分我認為不應該讓他以自首來做處理"},{"start":602.574,"end":629.711,"text":"是吧 跟主委報告 他並不是自己真的主動跟委員報告 他並不是真的自己主動說我有錯了其實還是被退府會有揪出來了嘛 是吧是 在剛開始調查的時候其實我們不能確認他是不是真的有犯罪啦所以在調查過程中他願意承認基本上就應該給他機會這也是廉政署一直要求我們要做的如果他願意主動承認基本上這是新華上面一個標準的程序好啦 反正我自己認為來自這個過程當中喔"},{"start":631.732,"end":639.501,"text":"再來還有就是我最後一個因為主席站起來了我是最後一位所以說我也希望這個會議趕快結束第一我認為在這樣的處事的過程當中你們給他自首你們等於就是也認為他在最後一刻翻然回物"},{"start":646.869,"end":652.753,"text":"但是他其實是一錯再錯三錯我們認為應該如此處理當然這個判刑的部分就要由院方來做決定這個自首是不是真自首我們尊重法院的判決第二個我詢問的是他被發現之後是停職嗎因為後來114年才免職嘛對不對對他發現之後我們就把他記大過就把他那個免職了"},{"start":670.728,"end":687.747,"text":"好所以就是免職了好那這個部分齁我認為未來你們在處理類似的案件的時候還是要審慎的斟酌到底是不是真自首好嗎好謝謝林儲殷委員我退府會跟我們針鋒士要了解的話自首有一個要件"}]}},{"id":"166655","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166655","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d609f4926827b180f8163a8c7f6258665b253d00c89e76a212f4b478bc1db2a66645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:55:11 - 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用在為人民的福祉 為國家的建設所以如果這樣 不然福利部委 不然山圖真的是禍國殃民"},{"start":143.118,"end":170.262,"text":"這影響國家的建設 國家的發展 人民福祉很大的市政黨可以為國家照顧 為人民服務 對不對南加五省都經過詳細的計畫 詳細的編列然後用在人民的身上 用在國家的建設如果這三星沒有過 所有受害的都是台灣人民影響是國家建設停頓 影響很大 對不對"},{"start":171.363,"end":200.744,"text":"主要是有比如說我們對縣市的一個補助證裡面有321億那主要是因為我們要希望增加那個地方的一個調度能力這個我都知道各部會的這個各部會所說的影響我都看過了所以我今天為什麼請這個主席主席長主要是針對這個整體的狀況做一些的分析跟評估是很嚴峻如果真的沒經過是非常嚴峻對國家建設對人民福祉是造成很嚴重的傷害"},{"start":201.188,"end":201.209,"text":"是"},{"start":202.961,"end":231.391,"text":"這真是禍國殃民 倒行逆施這也是對不起台灣人民好 大家針對建設個別部會的部分我先請教一下經濟部經濟部今天是次長可是這個對南部南部當然是過去治水防洪是南部包括高雄是重大的建設好 如果今年總計照沒有通過"},{"start":233.275,"end":259.808,"text":"對高雄治水防洪水利建設會造成哪些影響我們這次編列明年度的這個治水預算用在高雄大概有14.5億是新興計畫的部分會受到影響那加上長年計畫用在高雄的年度計畫也大概超過30億了就是這個治水部分就是這個部分然後補助給這個高雄市政府在經濟發展方面的部分"},{"start":261.251,"end":276.094,"text":"這個部分並沒有任何其他相關的補助我們自選防洪直接影響到這個高雄河川城市跟自選防洪就影響將近15億對 15億 謝謝何市長好 下一位請這個交通部代表是 委員好謝謝 這個市長是對高雄的交通建設"},{"start":285.782,"end":305.288,"text":"如果今年預算沒辦法省 新計畫沒辦法動之啊這樣會影響多少預算規模 對高雄市的交通建設現在高雄市的新興建設 目前像紫縣其實都還在規劃 還沒有完成所以它不算是新興計畫你講一個數字 你來這邊報告應該很詳細你這影響"},{"start":310.35,"end":324.357,"text":"我這邊大概幾個捷運的部分因為原來列前三嘛列前三的部分如果以高雄岡山的路子的部分大概是總共是518沒辦法執行啊5800萬對不起 5800萬沒辦法執行多少 5800萬那另外黃線的部分呢黃線它屬於延續性的"},{"start":332.087,"end":346.352,"text":"所以對交通建設我希望你再提供一個詳細資料給我對高雄市交通建設的影響主席再給我40秒農業部這個黃市長對高雄包括農業各項建設這個預算中央總統預算沒辦法通過新計劃沒辦法執行會影響多少預算規模"},{"start":354.717,"end":379.475,"text":"就整個的部分我們在防洪治水的這個部分大概還有這些林保的部分我們會有總共大概有74億的這樣的一個影響74億 包括這個農業的這個建設我們包括那個治山防洪還有這個農水路的這些的維修整建還有這些林保的這個部分的維護"},{"start":380.676,"end":398.183,"text":"這個拜託這三個部會經濟部跟那個交通部還有農業部是不是對高雄建設的影響有一個比較詳細完整的清單跟資料要提供給我好謝謝給你謝謝邱委員接下來我們請陳冠廷委員"}]}},{"id":"166654","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166654","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60dab2d6b39382a50b63a8c7f6258665b2d81c25c0c566a88a059e63f136e9659f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:48:26 - 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那個你提到這個釋憲主席長我來說花東地區發展條例民國101年"},{"start":262.477,"end":286.751,"text":"民國一百年公佈施行一百零一年開始編列預算花東第七發展條例要編列四百億的基金沒有行政院的版本沒有行政院的版本立法院的提案三讀通過當時馬英九總統執政"},{"start":292.406,"end":318.583,"text":"也沒有去提復議啊就照樣編一算因為確實花東地區的發展均衡發展這符合憲法均衡發展所以立法院審查通過的法例案百分之九十以上都會跟什麼會跟預算有關係啊"},{"start":321.999,"end":349.759,"text":"90%除了那個基本法之外基本法也會規定多少錢還是會有所以這個部分我們看這個軍人待遇條例也是一樣這麼辛苦的軍人對不對然後職業軍人越來越少職業軍人又越來越少不是2027年打仗了嗎既然2027年打仗了"},{"start":351.021,"end":374.562,"text":"對不對 軍人當然大意要提升所以這個部分因為主席已經站起來了所以這個部分要請國防部 請組紀長要去跟行政院院長講要編譯算 要編譯算 要編譯算以上 謝謝好 謝謝鄭委員接下來我們請"},{"start":376.853,"end":381.18,"text":"黃婕委員黃婕委員黃婕委員不在下一位"}]}},{"id":"166653","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166653","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d6014408defaf4ebfd463a8c7f6258665b2d81c25c0c566a88a1a088aa3d2b9e73c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:40:53 - 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請陳主席長董事長還有農業部次長三位好 時間的關係不一一問候首先先請教一下內政部次長"},{"start":28.157,"end":44.568,"text":"因為我們在今年三度通過警察人員人事條例給退休的警校提高所得替代率考試院全序部在我的要求之下他們也完成了整個電腦系統重新的更正然後呢在前幾天已經把新的更正函"},{"start":46.585,"end":66.157,"text":"發給退休的警囂那這個新的審定函它所代表的意義就是一個行政處分它使得退休的警囂取得公法上面的金錢給付警求權那這個審定函對於目前所短掃的差額也很清楚的把它列出來譬如說警政二階每個月短掃了5,326元"},{"start":68.658,"end":90.387,"text":"而在全序部所發出去的函裡面寫得非常的清楚說這個差額要由服務機關依規定發起我今天在設法法制委員會的時候請教了全序部全序部說這裡所講的由服務機關依規定發起現在這個主管機關就是內政部請問內政部打算什麼時候給"},{"start":92.041,"end":119.125,"text":"報告委員那內政部的立場跟行政院一樣我們現在正在提釋憲所以行政院如何指示所以只要提釋憲就造成了公法上面金錢起伏請求權的中斷嗎這個是行政院的法律見解嗎我們現在依行政院的指示來辦理所以你的意思是說內政部現在申報有幾次依行政院的指示辦理就對了我們的立場跟行政院一致OK你們可以立場跟行政院一致啊到底要講清楚啊"},{"start":120.339,"end":148.211,"text":"因為這不是只有一般公民會看有很多法律系的學生也會看我們的行政院現在創了獨步全球的法學理論只要行政院說違憲行政院申請釋憲就構成了馬上可以暫停給付的法律事由這樣子的法律見解行政法院會不會接受那我們就等著看因為我今天已經在社會法治委員會宣布了我接下來"},{"start":150.59,"end":175.291,"text":"會義務的幫這些警消提起團體訴訟剩下的事情我們到行政法院再說就好了接下來來請教一下主計長行政院一直提出一個非常怪異的法律理論他說立法院通過的法律案如果涉及到經費的增加的時候沒有行政院的同意就是違憲的"},{"start":176.974,"end":201.483,"text":"那這個獨步全球的法律間接啊我之前也請教了賴清德所提名上一位司法院的院長蔡秋明蔡秋明講得非常的清楚啊法律案法律案包括了像老龍津貼包括了像禁法補償涉及修正法律案因此造成經費的增加這個跟憲法"},{"start":203.373,"end":221.691,"text":"立法院禁止增加預算這是兩件本質完全不同的事情老龍津貼的部分根本就沒有違憲那這樣子的法律看法這樣子的法律見解顯然連賴清德所提名的司法院院長都不認同行政院現在的看法"},{"start":222.412,"end":237.325,"text":"那行政院還要繼續的固執下去可能行政院覺得說那五位綠色司法獨夫都我們控制的我們叫他們怎麼做 他們就怎麼做誰敢這麼囂張但這件事情沒有這麼簡單為什麼這件事情沒有這麼簡單因為 此時此刻現在八樓 衛環委員會正在審老龍津貼"},{"start":246.816,"end":275.219,"text":"暫行條例要進一步的提升老農津貼給付的數額請問一下行政院主席總署認不認為目前由民主進步黨這些立委所提出來的老農津貼暫行條例要提高給付金額這件事情是違憲的所以這個部分就是按照預算法91條還有財政紀律法裡面的規定是所提的法"},{"start":276.129,"end":302.575,"text":"奇怪你們主張的是違憲啊怎麼我現在聽到的不是憲法的條文是預算法跟財政紀律法違法跟違憲是兩個不同的層次吧所以我就請教你嘛現在由民進黨的立委所提出來的老農津貼暫行條例要提高給我們退休老農給付的金額民進黨那些立委所提出來的法案是不是違憲的是還是不是"},{"start":303.929,"end":325.529,"text":"這個部分要先看他有沒有跟行政院先溝通所以呢 民進黨要提這個案子以前有跟行政院溝通嗎所以啊 你們現在啊 理論就更奇特了問過行政院 行政院點頭不違憲如果呢 行政院不點頭就違憲"},{"start":327.694,"end":336.72,"text":"我國的憲法理論已經進入了一個奇幻的世界一切是行政權說了算來 農業部的是不是有來來 我先請教一下農業部部長不好意思 您是次長嘛"},{"start":348.53,"end":373.866,"text":"老農津貼啊經過好幾屆的立委慢慢把它調高嘛照顧退休老農的生活我們大家都支持啦但是道理要講清楚啊當初老農津貼在2005年從4000元調升到5000元是誰提案的知不知道自己的業務不熟"},{"start":376.772,"end":399.579,"text":"2005年的時候4000元調到5000元的時候提案的啊是民主進步黨立法院黨團提案人包括了柯建民跟賴清德現在大家就完全看不懂啦當初賴清德自己當立法委員的時候提高老農津貼給付的數額是立法委員提案喔沒有違憲"},{"start":401.035,"end":413.869,"text":"那但是呢等到他自己掌控了行政權了以後立委只要提高透過修正法律提高給特定的族群給付的金額就違憲"},{"start":415.911,"end":437.015,"text":"這種無步全球的理論啊讓人家完全沒有辦法理解沒有關係主席說時間到了但是道理要說清楚謝謝黃委員這個主席長要講清楚啦不是說跟行政院報告就可以是要跟行政院講說這個財源到底在哪裡"}]}},{"id":"166652","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166652","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60b2715fe5a8022f238f4e93bf07b6087fd81c25c0c566a88ae8a977c2421e346e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:36:50 - 11:45:25","影片長度":"00:08:35","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T11:36:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T11:45:25+08:00","duration":515,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.764093750000001,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.273468750000003,"end":22.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.609718750000003,"end":28.667843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.000968750000002,"end":30.355343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.93659375,"end":38.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.82659375,"end":40.244093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.336593750000006,"end":42.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.13784375,"end":45.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.38659375,"end":52.562843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.59221875,"end":56.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.74784375,"end":58.182218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.789718750000006,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.173468750000005,"end":60.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.30409375000001,"end":63.531593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.10534375,"end":65.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.13034375000001,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.71221875,"end":69.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.99471875,"end":74.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.12471875,"end":75.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.57596875,"end":80.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.86221875000001,"end":81.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.26284375,"end":82.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.42721875000001,"end":86.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.68409375,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.59471875000001,"end":95.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.49284375,"end":96.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.14659375000001,"end":97.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.05784375,"end":104.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.33096875000001,"end":106.36034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.25471875000001,"end":108.72284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.88721875,"end":113.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.58284375000001,"end":116.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.29534375,"end":118.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.25284375000001,"end":119.64096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.84346875000001,"end":121.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.61096875000001,"end":123.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.06221875000001,"end":126.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.75784375,"end":128.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.82096875000002,"end":129.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.20471875,"end":131.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.02721875,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.06909375,"end":134.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.08159375,"end":138.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.38471875000002,"end":141.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.08471875,"end":143.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.09284375000001,"end":144.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.56096875,"end":145.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.33721875,"end":148.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.68284375000002,"end":149.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.01596875,"end":151.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.66971875000002,"end":154.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.79159375,"end":157.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.35659375,"end":166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各位委員 有請部長來 請陳部長委員好部長好這個有關老農津貼暫行條例事實上這個實施已經三十年了到今年正好是三十年了等一下"},{"start":36.997,"end":57.186,"text":"不好意思好這個30年所以本席在去年3月13號去年3月13號就提出來要把這個暫行"},{"start":59.555,"end":80.996,"text":"這兩個字既然已經實施40年了到去年是39了到今年正好是30年所以這個部分這個一定要拿掉這是第一個第二個在法制面沒有問題法制面沒有問題當初之所以加戰刑就是暫時的"},{"start":83.519,"end":107.998,"text":"十十幾年就可以不要了採用暫行那現在既然已經要繼續實施了也不會停了除非廢止除非廢止所以這個在法制面沒有問題所以大家有這個共識好我們看這個原住民原住民的這個"},{"start":109.949,"end":138.344,"text":"年齡的 剛才部長也做了一些回應事實上如果我們從其他的法例國民年金法年住民就是55歲然後呢公務人員退休之前撫恤法公務人員年住民年住民55歲55歲這個公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例"},{"start":139.457,"end":165.877,"text":"原住民也是55岁之所以会这样子定就是因为原住民与非原住民的这个平均移民有真的很有确实有这个确实有这个落差了所以当然部长又会用上次回应的刚才你也回应了就说这个事实上"},{"start":167.511,"end":181.479,"text":"從事農業的基本上他的餘命比較高所以因為我們在處理老農津貼所以一定要用這個族群來看這個東西我知道你有講過事實上如果仔細分析其實不是這樣我們可以另外在主條的時候再討論好我們看這個"},{"start":185.253,"end":213.436,"text":"老農今天他這個基於職業屬性的一個福利基金 你們說這個不宜再針對不同族群而有不同的一個規範這個 而延民會今天的報告就說這個提案反對原住民族權利有提升者本會 就是延民會競表贊同這個部分"},{"start":215.299,"end":232.631,"text":"這個我剛有講如果從我們的平均移民確實有這個落差剛才那個表是三地原住民跟平地原住民平均的一個表如果是三地原住民那個差距更大"},{"start":234.387,"end":261.769,"text":"這是以全部的原住民當作統計的母數那我剛才說的如果是以從事農業領老農津貼的這個當作母數的話它是比全國的漁民還高你這樣的一個計算是因為 不是不是那個部長你要去計算的話你要先從不是從老農津貼因為老農津貼幾歲開始"},{"start":263.477,"end":288.647,"text":"65岁啊对嘛是因为65岁去算的时候可以老农金农民退出租金的但是如果你从这个年轻的时候开始算农民年轻的时候你永远不知道他什么时候过往对就是所以从事农业的部分只能说从事农业的已经在领老农津贴的这个族群去算"},{"start":291.251,"end":315.093,"text":"這個如果你從從農民農民整個原住民的農民跟全國的農民的平均移民你去比較的話你就不會你就會改變你的想法不然的話為什麼國民年金法會這樣子制定為什麼這個公務人員的教職員的"},{"start":317.034,"end":332.23,"text":"確實是這樣 確實是如此所以這個部分就是有很多繳了之後以公務人員來講他每個月繳那個提撥儲金結果他還沒有55歲還沒有65歲他就離開了"},{"start":338.382,"end":363.598,"text":"所以才會去降低才會有這樣的一個規劃我不了解其他的其他的那些條文裡面55歲的部分的立法的原因不過以農業部來講我們還是用從事農業的這個族群去計算所以是當然所以他的餘命是比較高的所以要以從事農業然後要以所有的族群非原住民從事農業他幾歲開始"},{"start":366.36,"end":383.268,"text":"然後到整個 對啊我們我們就是這樣因為從事農業你有領老農 表示你有加農保然後有領老農津貼的部分他的餘命就是82點多歲嘛好 這個部分這個園民會一直想要說明要說明嗎好 好 請來 副組長"},{"start":396.302,"end":417.378,"text":"這個其實也是衛福部在112年提出的那個說法就是因為針對這個那個老農津貼的部分行政院跟都有邀請各部會來討論過了那我們剛剛部長所講的部分是從112年的那個報告來看的話"},{"start":418.439,"end":447.176,"text":"那個衛福部的原住民勤領那個老農津貼的部分是82.9歲然後剛剛部長意思就是說那個是高於那個非原民的勤領的部分其實從報告上來看衛福部講的是他是82原住民勤領的平均年齡82.9歲是高於全體國人的"},{"start":447.836,"end":463.312,"text":"平均余命也就是他并不是跟非原名的老农来去做比较如果我们用那个老农来比较的话65岁以下的那个原名的秦岭的平均余命跟"},{"start":464.133,"end":479.437,"text":"跟非原民的老農來比較的話其實原民的老農是平均餘命是低於3.3歲那如果我們是就所有的農保的那個投保人數來算的話那那個"},{"start":482.399,"end":503.817,"text":"原民的老農的那個平均原命是跟非原民的差到5.5歲這是111年的一個數據好 再把這個書面的資料再提供給我好不好這個部分我們希望能夠做非常明確的一個處理"},{"start":505.526,"end":515.986,"text":"好 因為時間的關係因為我還要去財政委員會去質詢就到這邊好 謝謝 謝謝政委 謝謝部長好 接下來請丁學忠委來做詢問"}]}},{"id":"166651","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166651","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60bb481664e95e53408f4e93bf07b6087fd81c25c0c566a88ae8a977c2421e346e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:24:49 - 11:36:44","影片長度":"00:11:55","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案\n(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。\n【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-24","start_time":"2025-12-24T11:24:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-24T11:36:44+08:00","duration":715,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.03846875,"end":8.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.907218750000002,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.78409375,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.762843750000002,"end":41.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.94846875,"end":55.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.90409375,"end":75.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.86721875,"end":99.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.22221875000001,"end":118.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.45534375000001,"end":172.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.84784375,"end":179.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.66096875000002,"end":186.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.09034375000002,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.73659375000003,"end":220.24971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.07221875000002,"end":301.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.23721875,"end":246.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.52409375000002,"end":246.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.59159375000002,"end":246.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.67159375,"end":328.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.31284375,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.03409375,"end":335.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.80159375,"end":334.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.96159375,"end":342.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.97846875000005,"end":336.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.74534375,"end":343.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.28534375000004,"end":349.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.62659375000004,"end":346.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.06096875000003,"end":354.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.16534375000003,"end":375.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.72971875,"end":362.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.29909375,"end":363.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.50846875,"end":374.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.90909375,"end":381.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.04721875,"end":400.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.38471875000005,"end":382.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.56034375,"end":393.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.82909375,"end":407.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.44409375000004,"end":417.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.40034375000005,"end":424.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.35284375000003,"end":428.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.14534375000005,"end":430.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.82034375,"end":431.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.64284375000005,"end":433.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.27971875000003,"end":434.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.43159375000005,"end":439.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.87346875000003,"end":441.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.35846875000004,"end":443.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.37534375,"end":443.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.69159375000004,"end":447.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.67409375000005,"end":463.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.57096875,"end":460.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.76034375,"end":472.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.72221875,"end":464.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.83159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我們是不是有請陳部長來 請部長喂好"},{"start":14.793,"end":40.667,"text":"部長好我想今天跨黨派的委員大家都關心老農福利津貼要調整還有排附這個議題主要是我覺得大家已經看見了就是說農民在台灣他們其實他們的工作我只能講相對辛苦像我最近比較常跑這個嘉義縣我看到很多的這個老人家為什麼他這麼辛苦他年紀這麼大他還需要繼續從農"},{"start":42.108,"end":58.144,"text":"因為他需要靠從農再多增加收入他才可以維持他的生活像最近這個高麗菜我自己也去認購了三千顆高麗菜因為產區他的高麗菜他種一顆就是可能沒有辦法十塊錢這樣的價格"},{"start":59.505,"end":75.158,"text":"甚至他連這個去請人家來這個收割然後這個工資都沒戶了所以就是說從農的人我覺得他們的這個收入是呈現在一個不穩定有可能有好的時候但是呢壞的時候你看像這個高麗菜"},{"start":76.599,"end":98.474,"text":"這個整個就是大家血本無歸啊就是那個不敷成本啊那另外不要講說天災這次的丹納斯風災在整個嘉義地區也造成重創我們看到的就是從農的人真的是奇產無比有的是即使是溫室的你種這個哈密瓜溫室的那個整個"},{"start":99.415,"end":113.919,"text":"全部也掀翻你溫室種蔬菜的也掀翻然後漁民的損失也是然後你即使是種植蘭花我看了很心疼我們有那個是青農他很用心的栽培蘭花結果他整個這個整個颱風這麼大他說他種植的蘭花"},{"start":119.58,"end":140.306,"text":"血本無歸整個都把他掀掉了他那一些遇災的那些場所通通都被摧毀了所以今天為什麼是跨黨派大家在這邊就是持續要幫這些老農來爭取因為他們的這個工作的環境他所面臨到天然災害的挑戰坦白講他比老公"},{"start":140.806,"end":155.357,"text":"比軍公教是高很多他真的就是看天在吃飯所以一個風災來可能會讓他這個損失非常大這個也是為什麼我看到我們現在雖然政府有很多的獎勵措施我們在鼓勵青年返鄉從農"},{"start":156.698,"end":179.574,"text":"但是坦白講那個速度跟這個老農已經老化沒有回來的速度這個是沒有辦法接上你從你自己這個領這個老農津貼的人數就可以看到我們老農津貼領的人數2007年還有六七點八萬人口但是你是呈現逐年下降最新的11月的你們的數字是五十萬兩千人"},{"start":180.715,"end":208.961,"text":"等於說這個領導農今天的人口從2007年到現在呢它少了兩成五也就是你沒有一直補上來就是沒有一直補上來這個是我們看到的一個現況那這個就是今天為什麼要討論就是剛剛我有聽到部長在講當然從政府的角度你會從這個公平性去橫評會去考量到其他的類別但是我要提醒部長的是除了公平性之外你也要看到這個行業的特殊性"},{"start":209.821,"end":219.832,"text":"那我們國家的政策就是我們到底需不希望台灣的農業持續發展我想應該是希望吧做一個農業部部長應該希望吧永續的發展對不對"},{"start":222.696,"end":246.253,"text":"對 所以要永續發展你就必須有持續的這個青年人願意投入這個行業那你要讓他投入這個行業你就要讓他知道說投入這個行業雖然他過程是辛苦的 風險性也高但是政府在相關制度的設計上我會讓你在65歲退休的時候是可以得到一個相對安穩的保障的"},{"start":246.653,"end":270.718,"text":"如果政府有這樣的一個誘因我覺得也可以讓年輕人看到一些希望不會說我會擔心我在蟲農的過程當中我可能起起伏伏最後如果我可能總結下來我沒有剩餘但是至少政府會照顧我政府所累加起來的你們現在的雙重疊加的這個制度會讓我得到基本的保障"},{"start":271.158,"end":296.921,"text":"我覺得這個是我們應該要去追求的從這邊來討論就是看到它的特殊性還有我們整體政策我們希望永續農業所以有一些政府就要出的比較多這個的合理性就會出來但是如果這些撇開不看就是直接去比較勞工當然大家就會覺得說為什麼是這樣但是大家沒有看到農民他承擔的風險比其他的職業其實來得更高而且他是要自行吸收"},{"start":299.243,"end":324.797,"text":"然後又兼勞工然後迎虧自負就是這樣子然後受到天氣變化的這個程度又很高所以我們今天討論這個我覺得那個背景其實可能要要再看得更清晰一點那現在我擔心的就是你們現在推的這個農退儲金覆蓋率其實整體加起來不到三成這樣一個情況他其實就是在反映為什麼年輕人不太願意他猶豫"},{"start":325.757,"end":353.932,"text":"因為他不確定他要不要從農到老他可能會有那個猶豫對不對不過我跟委員修正一個資訊就是目前的退休儲金達到多少已經將近42%那如果連包括已經領過的已經將近五成了但是年輕的部分大概就是二十幾到三十左右這也是我們要努力的目標這個就是我要跟你講的年輕人如果你讓他覺得說好你從農然後你65歲"},{"start":355.273,"end":374.569,"text":"就是可以做到65歲退休的時候政府給你的保障是讓他看起來覺得是很安穩的我覺得會鼓勵他們的信心嘛所以這個剛剛我也聽到你有在提到說這一個農退儲金只要可以去提高他的這個參與率你們都會往這個方向前進"},{"start":375.45,"end":400.291,"text":"甚至於我會設計你只要參加退休儲金我的所有農業政策的補貼可以加碼因為我們也看到了他們過往都有很多都是為了他的基礎設施包括溫室包括一些系統都要自己付錢所以我把這個提高的時候他對他們的誘因更大所以除了鼓勵他們任何的一個方式我們都願意來做"},{"start":400.871,"end":427.617,"text":"好我覺得這個部分的確是應該要去增加的然後你們提到的這個所以第一個就是說那個津貼的金額也應該要增加因為如果我們農民他是一個比較特殊的工作的話這個我要跟你討論的就是到底我們現在的這個暫行條例今天在未還委員會審結果都是我們農業部部長在回答大家沒有覺得奇怪嗎"},{"start":429.878,"end":441.564,"text":"他的屬性是什麼我現在要問你就是說老年農民福利津貼他是社會福利還是應該是他退休金補充的一環是社會福利"},{"start":442.443,"end":467.772,"text":"是社會福利但是其實在你們今天的報告裡面你們第一頁自己就提到了就是說農保沒有老年給付項目所以政府為了照顧農民晚年生活增進農民福祉才頒行的這個暫行條例你提到的是沒有老年給付項目那是84年的時候還沒有這個條例的時候是沒有所以我們才會設計一個這樣的一個條例來類似"},{"start":472.133,"end":493.262,"text":"其實我覺得到現在真的到了檢討的時候了當時用了一個暫行這兩個字一施行從民國84年到現在就是30年我想沒有任何一個暫行可以實施這麼久暫行就是一個落日條款它是要一個接軌制度的但是現在如果以農業部告訴大家的到最後一頁"},{"start":494.182,"end":520.298,"text":"到農業部告訴大家的我們是一個疊加的概念事實上你這個老農福利津貼它是第一層你要往上加的是農民退休儲金它是第二層那如果是在這樣的一個疊加的概念底下你這一層不能拿掉你應該是常態化的施行沒有暫行這兩個字津貼應該就變成是你的第一層它是要持續性穩定的發放才對是不是 同意"},{"start":520.618,"end":548.752,"text":"同意嗎好所以我第一個建議就是老年農民津貼沒有暫行這兩個字暫行應該就直接拿掉他必須是個永久性的措施才會符合你們的1加1這樣的一個概念第二個他到底是退休金的補充還是是一個福利津貼我覺得要重新定義如果以這個農業部你們自己對外講的你們畫的這個圖事實上他就是個退休金的補充"},{"start":549.272,"end":570.101,"text":"他是1加1的概念就是你有第一層最穩定的保障然後再加上退休儲金看繳多少繳多久再加上來應該是這樣的概念所以這個如果一直用福利這樣的一個概念我覺得會跟其他的過去我們在談這個都說八大社福今天大家是連動的所以你才用"},{"start":570.681,"end":585.118,"text":"4年的CPI但是我個人認為應該是脫鉤他其實跟八大社府今天的屬性又不太一樣而今天其實我們也看到了整場委員會的質詢衛福部部長有在嗎沒在啊次長也不在啊"},{"start":585.618,"end":603.809,"text":"最關鍵的事實上還是農業部因為就是這些農民是你主要要服務的對象農保然後加上這個退休儲金也是你們現在在規劃所以我認為這整個屬性大家應該要從頭來思考了當時可能是用一個比較緊"},{"start":605.31,"end":628.385,"text":"就是說當時的立委是比較快速的提出來然後他也只是真的只是一個很短暫的三千塊的就是很少的真的是一個福利津貼性質但是到現在大家在討論的他必須能因應他的老年生活他必須能滿足就是他基本的開銷部長你是不是應該回去重新檢討思考他還是只是一個福利津貼性質"},{"start":629.245,"end":657.305,"text":"我第一個跟委員報告就是我們堆疊式的設計是為了確保農民退休後的生活保障是所以是退休後的生活保障對那一個部分是用福利的制度去處理一個部分是用退休金的方式去處理的部分所以你可以看到84年開始的一個基數那時候都還沒有CPI都是在歷次的立法委員這邊的爭取之下來提高的部分"},{"start":657.685,"end":685.921,"text":"那後來在100年開始我們才導入一個比較正式的一個CPI的指數那我也願意就是說像我會問法治一下因為暫行拿掉跟不拿掉它的法律效益到底差在哪邊那如果能夠當作一個正式的條例當然以我農業部旅長當然是最好那我必須考慮到法治面是不是可以這樣直接拿掉這個我想容我後續我的建議就是正式化因為你寫暫行兩個字容你就想說哪一天"},{"start":686.821,"end":713.002,"text":"不實施了 暫停就是這個意思嘛如果要常態實施的 我想就沒有暫停不過我想我們再從法律的位階來講不會說今天就不玩了我知道 但是名稱就是名實相符嘛我們的立場是如果能夠拿掉如果在法制上沒有什麼特別問題的話我也願意我想他應該就要變成是一個常態性的措施了好 謝謝好 謝謝翁議員 謝謝部長接下來請鄭天才委員來做選擇"}]}},{"id":"166650","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166650","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60fb392a95dfaf0c2863a8c7f6258665b2d81c25c0c566a88ae76c662ebc5f4a645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:28:26 - 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既然是這樣"},{"start":141.34,"end":167.116,"text":"那對 那跟委員這個報告這個畫面上可以看出來不動產的集中度有下降但是央行這次理事會並不是說就不管這個集中度而是回到各銀行你自己要去控管而且我印象中還有每一個月必須要把這個情況報給央行好 各銀行自己控管那我今天為什麼找你上來我不是搞金管會你知道嗎因為我們公營行庫這八大行庫"},{"start":169.437,"end":189.648,"text":"就是由你管的啊董事長總經理都你派的他們的政策作為你要負全責啊我光是講我們八大行庫好了從去年六月我們本來有要求之下那麼他對於不動產貸款的集中度反而增加了0.84%"},{"start":193.687,"end":219.587,"text":"這個增加了五千零六億在不動產的放款喔在不動產的放款然後這個反而民營航庫民營航庫還多少聽點話民營航庫去年我們要求以後它降了0.77%八大公營航庫增加0.84%那只有民營航庫有在聽話"},{"start":221.007,"end":231.152,"text":"那我並不是說新清安怎麼不好新清安利益良善如果真的訂好規則沒有例外情況的話本來是好但是"},{"start":233.939,"end":254.727,"text":"我們過去的行情行就是這三步沒有限年齡也沒有限首購更沒有限他們收入所以這另外還有一個大的問題就是大量的被人頭來使用所以當然行情行2.0要去改善可是"},{"start":256.172,"end":276.852,"text":"可是在改善的同時我們也必須注意對於不動產過度集中放款這個風險比方說我舉例啦這裡面公營航庫光是台營跟土營喔台營土營兩家放款給不動產的額度就高達三兆"},{"start":278.799,"end":294.313,"text":"佔我們全國公民銀行39家銀行的兩成欸台銀跟土銀過度集中在不動產的放款這一個部分 曝險過高那 曝險這麼高"},{"start":298.677,"end":325.896,"text":"風險不是只有他擔是我們全體2300萬民眾大家辛苦的血汗錢存款戶的血汗錢所以這風險度過高那我們如果部長如果你一再縱放八大供應行戶尤其台銀、土銀如果一再縱放他們去過度集中的話現在民營銀行他們也來有樣學樣"},{"start":328.649,"end":355.305,"text":"有樣學樣 甚至不只民營銀行像華太銀行 台中商銀 星光銀行你看它這一年裡面 他們對不動產放款的集中度大幅的增高那民營銀行有樣學樣連外商銀行 他們也來推波助瀾 分一杯羹"},{"start":357.642,"end":372.295,"text":"你看渣打銀行 匯豐銀行這兩家銀行啊他們放款不動產竟然超過50%超過50%耶 天啊那簡單講就是受到我們政府這樣子政策跟管理上這個部分的空間"},{"start":385.07,"end":407.007,"text":"所以他們就受到另一種變相的鼓舞所以這個部分我希望你能夠所以我認為說我為什麼這麼在乎這一點因為新清安我剛剛講利益是良善可是實施以來我們大家看一看他對房價對房價"},{"start":411.609,"end":425.513,"text":"飆漲的這個幅度他是非常正面的幫助了房價的高漲我們看一下齁在疫情這四年2016到2020裡面房價指數的漲幅5.4%那疫情這三年半房價指數"},{"start":437.066,"end":455.145,"text":"漲24.9%但是新青安新青安喔上路的一年內一年就漲了12.3一年就漲12.3你看看喔過去疫情前喔前四年漲5.4新青安一年就漲12.3那"},{"start":458.345,"end":468.192,"text":"房價所得比他的漲幅佔這個比例的升高從1.4到新興安的時候9.7所以啊我覺得這個太可怕了所以我要問你的第二個問題就是說部長你認為如何"},{"start":481.957,"end":488.647,"text":"來避免我們台灣的房價繼續高度的成長你的看法呢"},{"start":490.045,"end":493.348,"text":"先跟委員報告新青安這個貸款額度並沒有從那個不動產貸款集中度裡面去排除所以他仍然算在不動產的貸款的額度裡面那第二個部分有關新青安的部分會到明年的7月31號就告截止那這個後續有關的一些調整要不要做調整跟檢討財政部會持續邀同相關機關以及公股航庫一起來做討論"},{"start":517.208,"end":520.31,"text":"那在這個親親案的執行過程當中呢我們也不斷的精進包含醫生只能帶一次親親案另外就是說對於有人頭或出租就利用這種親親案而不是做自助使用的部分其實我們也做大力的追查那其實追回的有關利息的補貼已經超過一億五千萬那追回的戶數也超過七千多件這個部分我們持續在精進那後續我們會持續的檢討來做一些調看要怎麼樣的"},{"start":547.21,"end":566.716,"text":"政策面上要做怎麼樣的因應 以上的報告你說有追圍的 不當的 新興安的這個比方說人頭 比方說沒有收入這些你說有追圍7000多件我們都有 持續在做7000多件 有嗎 金額多少 追圍多少"},{"start":568.59,"end":579.876,"text":"現在已經是達到八千六百件了那金額也超過一億五千萬以上一億五千萬那個利息補貼 利息補助的部分你總金額再算給我好不好 利息補貼你說是一億嘛但是我們花在新青安的利息補貼是數以數是億計啦"},{"start":594.298,"end":610.915,"text":"是因為就是我們當時新西安是為了要協助沒有自住房屋的青年朋友們可以有一點自住我們協助青年朋友尤其是剛入社會或者剛創業 剛結婚這個都正確但是不要"},{"start":612.165,"end":633.775,"text":"陷入被人頭跟房仲公司跟建商 他們勾結好了嗎對的不可以 因為先前你看嘛 光查到就查了8000多件啊還有高收入的他也來新清安 他不是首購的他也來新清安所以我是要 部長我今天問你這些問題 我就是希望說"},{"start":635.994,"end":665.02,"text":"對於房屋對不動產放管的集中度要去降低尤其對公營航庫也就是說財政部跟公營銀行不要帶頭不要再去火上加油讓我們國內的房價一而再再而上推高你看根據這三大房價指數內政部的住宅價格指數國泰的房價指數信義的房價指數在這些指數上面"},{"start":665.72,"end":681.788,"text":"那麼這個上漲的趨勢是非常明顯而且是從新清安不當的新清安開始的所以我希望新清安2.0如果要做我們就要做的徹底要幫到真正需要的青年朋友們"},{"start":683.347,"end":700.645,"text":"這個收入低的青年朋友們創業的青年朋友們新婚的青年朋友需要幫助的青年朋友們這樣我們這個政策來自於我們全民對青年朋友們的利息補助這才是值得的嘛"},{"start":701.411,"end":716.883,"text":"好不好 委員這意見我們一定會在制定的時候 一定會納入的是 謝謝委員好 台銀 土銀的特別 盯一盯他們啦我看他們這兩家好像都是脫薑泥嘛好像他們董事長 總經理好像都不太聽你的話不會啦 好 謝謝你認命的 我只能找你 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝 王委員"},{"start":728.552,"end":732.746,"text":"接下來我們請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}