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那今天的會議開始"},{"start":2029.588,"end":2056.249,"text":"那今天協商的主題是本院委員游浩等37人凝聚政黨及其附隨組織不當取得財產處理條例第4條及第34條條文修正草案本案於114年12月2日本院第11屆第4會期第11次會議決議自委員會抽出進付二讀並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商原安排於本次會議進行黨團協商"},{"start":2058.351,"end":2084.693,"text":"我們先介紹在場委員那首先范雲委員陳培鈺委員張雅玲委員鍾嘉斌委員游皓委員張祺凱委員那再介紹本市協商主題各相關機關列席代表黨產會主任委員林峰正主委"},{"start":2085.694,"end":2114.101,"text":"然后财政部国产署接收保管组游家宇组长内政部合作及人民团体师叶昭宏专门委员交通部观光署黄和廷副署长国防部政治作战局文宣新战处严瑞宏科长教育部秘书处戴玉平专门委员终身教育师王亚林科长"},{"start":2115.376,"end":2140.802,"text":"法務部謝志明參事司法院民事廳廖佩玲法官那為立協商進度那我們就由各黨團直接針對條文分別表示意見那如果機關補充意見的話再行說明那我們接下來我們就先針對第4條我們開始來討論那我們先請提案委員先說明 謝謝"},{"start":2143.392,"end":2159.399,"text":"OK 謝謝強哥那本期等37人提案政黨及附屬組織不當取得財產處理條例第4條及第30條條文修正草案來做說明那現在第4條的部分那在這條的修法的重點就是"},{"start":2160.299,"end":2179.827,"text":"因為救火團是公益組織它也是笑死但是問題是救火團公益組織是大家心中的一個既定的事實那它不僅是救災防疫的起先鋒也是模範生那同樣的在這一條的部分必須要在這裡提出修正因為黨產條例不當條例它的這個定義過寬導致行政機關的不當擴權還侵害到救火團等公益團體"},{"start":2186.409,"end":2214.66,"text":"所以主張修正讓法律回歸到法治精神因此修正的第四條停止無限擴大附屬於組織的定義要還給民間團體公益團體的公道所以在這裡的話修法重點排除國家定定稱隸屬於國家則不在此限尤其是在當然條例的立法目的在處理政黨財產不應該混淆國家及政黨財產所以在這個部分修法重點是還引以來定一個更明確的內容"},{"start":2216.991,"end":2233.761,"text":"好 那我們現在就開放來表示意見我們就按照黨團的順序好了就是輪流來 先請鍾嘉賓委員好 謝謝主席其實以前的救國團在我們那個年代叫做中國反共青年救國團"},{"start":2235.376,"end":2262.03,"text":"曾幾何時這個反共不見了但是還有叫中國但是現在大家講的也不叫做中國救國團如果你在現在台灣社會說我是中國救國團的活動成員人家懷疑說你是不是來這邊兩岸交流的現在簡稱叫做救國團但是事實上它的本質從它當年中國青年反共救國團中國青年反共救國團"},{"start":2263.891,"end":2292.019,"text":"這幾個字就是它的設置的本體這跟中國國民黨叫做中國一樣都有個中國到現在中國國民黨還是要中國啊中國國民黨有跟中國青年反共救國團一樣把中國拿掉 把反共拿掉嗎現在只敢說青年救國團啊但是我們問題不在於它的名稱而已這個團體在當年整個學校青年還是被限制"},{"start":2292.964,"end":2298.39,"text":"沒有辦法參加課外活動的時候只有他獨佔可以提供青年在課堂以外的其他我們現在認為各種的戶外啊體驗啊什麼戰鬥營啊西壓縱軸啦這些"},{"start":2310.785,"end":2335.035,"text":"都是在當時威權統治時期中國國民黨作為一個統治的一個集團它對於校園青年的一個控制手段當然隨著時代的變遷救國團應該用全稱中國青年反共救國團它存在著的 它使用的房舍這個我很清楚啊我曾經在屏東縣政府任職當副縣長"},{"start":2336.926,"end":2354.699,"text":"我們屏東縣的屏東公園範圍內就一座當時的中國青年反共救國團的膚色我看過它的土地房屋的登記上面就很清楚的寫著在當年就是登記給中國青年反共救國團"},{"start":2356.141,"end":2367.055,"text":"屏東縣政府費盡了九牛二虎之力才把他要回來而且還跟救國團還要跟他討論一個條件讓他有充裕的時間另外密地興建"},{"start":2368.567,"end":2397.363,"text":"當然這些年來的變化曾經參與過這個組織的青年現在大概都已經有的是已經退休了也在從本身很多我都認識他都在從事社會公益所以我這邊呢要對剛剛有委員的表達我做一點點的小小的做一個修正參與這個組織的很多人都在從事公益但是這個組織不是公益組織我再強調一次"},{"start":2399.853,"end":2419.792,"text":"參與這個組織的很多青年後來都有持續在從事公益但是從事公益的是這些熱血青年不是這個中國青年反共救國團他後來這些成員參與的公益活動不能改變這個組織在威權統治時期不法侵佔國家的資產的事實"},{"start":2421.343,"end":2448.297,"text":"而且直到了解嚴前還持續的包括在屏東縣我們墾丁地區國家公園範圍內都有辦法取得土地興建所謂的青年活動中心這個在威權時期啊能夠在國家公園範圍內能夠蓋出那樣建築物的啊大概除了中國青年反共救國團大概不做他人第二想啊"},{"start":2449.048,"end":2472.836,"text":"所以呢歷史也證明這個組織他就是國民黨的一個覆水組織那今天要透過修法的方式想把他這個組織過去曾經侵占的國家資產抹煞證明這是沒有用的我們特別要提醒一下我知道油耗委員對於這個組織有一份很深刻的情感"},{"start":2473.786,"end":2502.469,"text":"我何嘗不是我們在我們的學生時期能夠參加的戶外的 課外的活動就只有他辦的我們才能參加其他的沒有機會參加甚至我們出了社會還會去參加他辦的不管是語言 插花 生活的這種各種各式各樣的才藝的課程很多社會青年都有在參加但這些仍然不能抹煞他曾經是威權政黨中國國民黨的附隨組織"},{"start":2503.53,"end":2525.981,"text":"我們今天看條文他寫著本來的條文是寫什麼覆水組織只獨立存在而由政黨實質控制其人事財務或業務經營的法人或是由曾由政黨實質控制其人事財務或業務經營這裡面用的是或"},{"start":2526.801,"end":2550.237,"text":"在法律上 貨的意思是說不管是人事啊 財務啊 或者業務啊只要其中一項是由政黨實質控制或影響的就構成了它的覆水組織這個要件相當的 相對是較寬廣的不然問問看 中國青年反共救國團歷任的主任是由誰來指派他的人事辦拿到中國國民黨的黨務會議去決定"},{"start":2552.912,"end":2578.948,"text":"答案都很清楚過去我們的這個相關的政府呢在做這樣的一個不讓黨產組織的時候呢都已經清查過了今天這個修正條文呢把它改成集那以後要證明他是附屬於組織啊就必須是人事財務及業務都受政黨控制的才算數那這樣的話誰會跑掉不是只有救國團啦婦聯會也跑掉啦"},{"start":2580.031,"end":2608.558,"text":"拿掉的把這個貨改成集其實影響的不是侵佔16億的中國青年反共救團影響的是包括了婦聯會他300多億的資產以後都不用歸還給國家所以可能油耗委員以為在幫救國團做善事啊他在幫婦聯會解套啊所以我們要請你看一看這個文字的修改一字之格只改了兩個字他的效果這麼宏大"},{"start":2609.505,"end":2625.582,"text":"或許提案委員認為說但曾隸屬於國家者不在此縣這不就自證其罪嗎什麼叫做曾經隸屬於國家者你曾經隸屬的國家當年是黨國不分的"},{"start":2626.57,"end":2655.579,"text":"那你說你是隸屬於國家卻不是政黨的覆水組織這剛好自證其有謬誤嘛你如果是附著於黨國一體的國家體制你就是當時黨國一體中國國民黨的覆水組織這還用說嗎所以加這個文字啊不要說是話蛇添足啊剛好是自證己罪啊所以呢我在這裡奉勸提案委員看清楚你所要做的你所要幫的跟你實際上達成的完全是兩碼子事"},{"start":2656.539,"end":2678.102,"text":"而且它的一個附帶的外溢效果還幫婦聯會300多億欠國家的資產不用規範我想這一點是非常的明確請提案委員好好想一想您的青春熱血我們都肯定救國團這個組織曾經參與過的青年或者現在的中年或老年他們所從事的公益我們絕不抹煞"},{"start":2679.161,"end":2699.336,"text":"我過去擔任副縣長期間也曾經被中國青年反共救國團聘為榮譽顧問因為他們這些成員在社會上很多在從事公益但是我要強調的成員從事社會公益不能抹煞這個組織本身就是一個威權政黨的覆水組織"},{"start":2700.177,"end":2710.888,"text":"也不能改變他們目前很多的資產是受當年是國家的資產用一個不當的手段平白無故的移轉給這個覆水組織以上說明我們請民眾黨團"},{"start":2716.846,"end":2734.478,"text":"救國團應該是很多台灣民眾非常甜美的回憶包括剛剛嘉賓也講我們年輕都參加過非常多的這個活動嘉賓剛才也承認去參加救國團的成員很多人現在都在做公益我跟他進一步講救國團本身也是做公益"},{"start":2736.676,"end":2760.727,"text":"最有名的在疫情發生的這個期間救火團幫各個縣市 這個沒有什麼藍綠之北你像那時候的台北市政府 台北市政府救火團幫了非常多的忙 包括建壇活動中心那時候就變成台北市的防疫旅館另外最近這一兩年的這個風災 我了解的光是丹納斯造成的這個嘉義跟台南那麼大的災情"},{"start":2762.052,"end":2782.628,"text":"揪團都有去幫忙 花蓮大地震他們都有去 他們本身就是一個公益團體他辦了非常多的活動 跟公益也有關係我要強調 轉型正義不應該是勝利者的正義更不要變成是報復或者是清算真正的轉型正義"},{"start":2784.778,"end":2789.42,"text":"這個組織當然不會屬於任何這個政黨包括你剛講不屬於國民黨以後也不會變成是民進黨的附屬的這個組織對於過去有任何貢獻有公益的這個團體跟組織不只是救國團"},{"start":2799.661,"end":2822.608,"text":"這個歷史是不能夠去抹滅的台灣民眾黨非常清楚我們認為要正義的轉型要符合三個條件三個條件第一個他要符合社會公義第二個他要轉型為非營利第三個就很重要也是民進黨一直在提的他應該以後不屬於任何政黨不屬於國民黨也不屬於民進黨不屬於任何的政黨"},{"start":2823.598,"end":2850.292,"text":"我們就要提醒的是黨產條例實施以來是不是有衍生了一些行政機關不當的擴權甚至侵賴到某些機關他本來做的這個公益反而被緊縮了這對台灣不是一件好事情你像救國團確實我們剛剛這樣一路談下來他也確實做了很多很多的公益可是這段時間確實他在推動跟對人民有利的跟公益跟活動上面今天風箏也在現場"},{"start":2852.12,"end":2871.454,"text":"當場委員會對他們嚴格的規範實際上你很清楚看得出來很多那種公益的推動上是受到很大影響的所以今天台灣民眾黨非常明確的表達對於救國團只要它符合剛剛講的那三個條件它如果是可以符合社會公益的轉型為非營利不屬於任何政黨我們就會支持 謝謝好 六號委員"},{"start":2877.54,"end":2899.558,"text":"那我先講謝謝那謝謝民眾黨黨團的對於救國團的一個就是支持同樣的在這裡的話也要回復一下這個提案的部分那當然我知道鍾嘉斌幹事長跟鍾江斌委員對於這個部分救國團的提案來講的話也是有矛盾複雜的情緒"},{"start":2900.999,"end":2917.475,"text":"因為在宗家兵幹事長必須要講的這個部分還明明就是清算但是他必須要說救國團他不是公益組織那大家來做公益但是宗家兵委員在屏東救國團也擔任多年的指導委員跟副主任委員"},{"start":2918.235,"end":2938.683,"text":"所以說現在又轉為顧問了所以說在地方上要跟救國團密切的結合但是在台北當幹事長卻必須要說救國團不是公益組織但是救國團過去在防疫期間救災期間還其實在整個公益的形象其實在現在的救國團的各鄉鎮委員會的會長"},{"start":2940.724,"end":2963.082,"text":"早就已經有藍有綠那所以就是一個公益組織就是一個社團法人那剛才有提到其實甚至在不當黨產會的發言人現在的監察委員施警方過去也曾擔任救火團墾丁七年活動中心的主任委員那所以說今天在認定一個公益團體那在這個政黨及其附會組織的這個當場條例來講"},{"start":2965.6,"end":2990.114,"text":"那如果說他在所謂的在人事財務及業務還有這個部分三項兼具那才能夠證明他是一個完全緊密那其實今天來講這個部分現行的貨那其實就已經是非常的無限擴大他的定義跟他的權利所以今天來講在法條的處理上必須要嚴謹"},{"start":2991.215,"end":3007.051,"text":"所以說今天來講這個文字上的糾正文字上的修正是應該不僅是還給舊國團公道更是還給民間團體公道那同樣的在現在我們在看舊國團他其實他本來就是一個公益組織公益團體沒錯"},{"start":3008.212,"end":3024.611,"text":"不管許多的民進黨的委員其實也都非常的認同救國團不管是許智傑委員也擔任高雄市的指導委員多年包括林黛華委員也擔任指導委員多年包括基隆市的童子委議長也擔任基隆市的指導委員多年"},{"start":3025.111,"end":3043.407,"text":"在今年救火團的團慶其實包括周春米、黃偉哲還有高雄市的康育成議長還有澎湖縣的陳光復還有縣長還有包括台中市想要選台中市的何新淳、立委其實也都向救火團表達祝賀"},{"start":3044.608,"end":3064.527,"text":"那其實在今天來講我們回歸到一個社會現實今天一個公益組織公益團體硬是要扣上他的這個黨產之名甚至今天在處理救國團的法案今天一下要加個婦聯會改天要再加一個還有各個組織的時候那其實那其實是在模糊焦點所以說還是回頭來講"},{"start":3066.409,"end":3095.607,"text":"當然嘉賓幹事長嘉賓兄有複雜的情緒因為幹事長跟立委的身份當然還是有點衝突但是回頭來講救國團的組織在公益的形象以及要回歸他的一個正義跟正當性其實公益不能等那所以才提案這個部分其實也希望民進黨的委員在這裡拋下意識形態其實大家也都知道救國團過去對社會的付出其實一起來支持那也才是還公益團體一個公道"},{"start":3098.2,"end":3104.184,"text":"那請主管機關說明我先表達基本立場 我反對整個修法的提案"},{"start":3121.94,"end":3151.086,"text":"我認為說這個案子因為牽涉到大法官釋字793號所認同的轉型正義的重要的憲政的價值這樣的修法的提案會顛覆這樣的重要的社會公義跟憲政的價值所以這樣的提案應該要回到委員會去讓更多的人可以來參與討論讓社會更多人能夠了解到這個修法的提案會影響到什麼"},{"start":3152.251,"end":3181.41,"text":"這才是正辦 而不是說就近乎二讀然後我們連討論的機會都沒有各個委員會完全都沒有插手的餘地大家稀里糊塗就把它表決過了人多就是贏我想不是 很多道理不是說去用表決就可以表決出來接下來我想表達一下舊國團其實是中國國民黨來台灣以後在中改會時期很早期成立的在黨內成立的一個組織它所有的組織的過程通通是黨決定的"},{"start":3182.694,"end":3196.702,"text":"那他要做的工作都是黨來指導那所需要的財務通通由國家來支應所以錢都是國家的那他從事什麼工作呢表面上好像從事青年活動實質上大家都知道他在國內"},{"start":3198.331,"end":3223.576,"text":"學校裡面從事政治偵訪許多現在還是立法院委員們也都曾經被偵訪過都有這個歷史而且檔案我們都已經現在都揭露了都看到了不只是國內還有國外的部分也是繼續從事這樣的工作所以明的是一套 暗的是一套那他現在的問題出在於說好 你說他曾經隸屬於國家那請問一下隸屬於國家他離開國家以後"},{"start":3226.684,"end":3242.268,"text":"他的財務沒有交回來沒有清算沒有交回來繼續還是救國人在用那隸屬於國家那不是更應該是國家的嗎這財務不是國家譬如說黨產會是這個正式成立的法定的機關如果有一天黨產會關門了那這個財產黨產會的主委可以帶走嗎"},{"start":3246.923,"end":3265.892,"text":"當然不可以啊當然財務要留下來留給國家嘛結果呢狀況最嚴重的就是這個他說他曾經隸屬於國家對他在成立到民國58年之前隸屬於國防部我們先不說這個隸屬是不是黑機關先不討論這個那他的財務就是國家的嘛58年以後他離開國家"},{"start":3268.257,"end":3275.884,"text":"可是他才會沒有交回來我們現在在做的就是這件事情我們在七年前認定救國團是國民黨的覆水組織"},{"start":3277.446,"end":3306.113,"text":"行政法院在去年8月1號它其實審得非常久審得超過6年它判我們贏也就是說我們認定的事實適用的法律都沒有問題那當然現在救火團上訴到最高行政法院難道不能等最高行政法院給一個判決嗎在急什麼讓法院有一個獨立審判的空間不好嗎那後面的這個不當取得財產要交回來國家這一段我們也充分的舉證"},{"start":3307.677,"end":3329.533,"text":"我們也做出處分我們也願意接受法院的審判如果現在用這樣的修法的方式來躲避公正的法院的審判我覺得這個沒有辦法跟全民交代所以我反對這全部這一條的修法以上 謝謝好 那請第二輪派培育憲嗎你剛剛先舉手"},{"start":3331.997,"end":3356.073,"text":"好 我認為剛剛尤浩委員私自揣測本黨團幹事長的心理小劇場實在是有點太過分了我真的認為你應該要公開道歉那至於救國團到底跟國民黨有什麼關係如果國民黨現在要公開說救國團是別人做的事情跟我都沒關係那你們就公開說 大方的說 好好的說告訴全台灣人民"},{"start":3356.934,"end":3368.803,"text":"救國團跟你們國民黨沒有關係有好你敢不敢講如果你敢講出來我們就相信你不是為了特定政黨你不是為了國民黨自己的利益你更不是為了照顧李乾隆給你的指示李乾隆說什麼他說啊拜會你們國民黨團他說"},{"start":3374.688,"end":3385.556,"text":"針對這個連署社會的罰則也就是這個郭台銘條款助理費除罪 陳玉珍提了 牛許廷也提了再來黨產條例要排除適用救國團等議案中國時報你們愛好的報紙說的12月2號有這個新聞如果他跟你們國民黨一點都沒有關係為什麼李乾隆要對你們下達這個指令"},{"start":3394.062,"end":3405.359,"text":"他甚至還說了來游浩文念給你聽你很乖啦都有聽你們的那個副主席交代啦他說啊一旦救國團解套對你們藍軍後續在陸空戰會有助益這一講欸這令中國時報嚇欸"},{"start":3408.752,"end":3428.974,"text":"那你現在就大大方方的告訴大家沒有沒有我要反對我們副主席說的救國團跟我們國民黨沒有關係他不是我們國民黨的附隨組織你甚至敢不敢講你們救國團在過去黨國一家的年代有沒有拿來前置思想控制言論監管所有大學生中學生"},{"start":3429.835,"end":3448.582,"text":"有沒有幫你們黨服務拿的錢是不是國家的錢人事是不是你們安排的你都不敢正面回應啊你對於相關的修法你看都不看你坐在這裡你真的好意思講你還要好意思說你是公益救國團真圖利假公益啦你好意思說那我再告訴大家剛剛嘉賓幹事長講了400億怎麼來大家不要只有以為只有救國團"},{"start":3453.624,"end":3474.308,"text":"婦聯會的錢會一併回來耶 400億可以做多少事情你們不是要扶國立民嗎 各位兩位在野黨的朋友什麼叫扶國立民 就是造福你國民黨 遊歷你民眾黨啦 400億可以做什麼熱的營養午餐 跪黨的黃國昌說要給小孩吃熱的還有生育補助 育兒津貼 T pass 假牙補助 婚育宅 學費補助這些都可以拿錢 你們本來應該要吐出來的錢"},{"start":3477.37,"end":3492.672,"text":"剛剛行政機關已經講得很清楚了為什麼不能再等法院判決呢為什麼這麼無恥要反改革這件事情我真的不知道你是不是聽了李乾隆的話聽了鄭麗文的話所以你們就必須要做這個事情所以由郵號你來提案我完全不知道正當性是什麼"},{"start":3493.192,"end":3497.736,"text":"所以我就期待你們國民黨民眾黨有人敢公開說救國團不是你們國民黨的附隨組織你們拋棄了你們曾經做過的壞事你們忘卻了國民黨做過對台灣人壓迫的歷史你們228不肯記戒嚴不肯記現在連救國團你們都要拋棄了我真的很佩服你們的歷史觀果然非常了不起與眾不同"},{"start":3516.539,"end":3538.939,"text":"我們今天在談的是黨產條例的修正今天連鋒鄭林主委在這邊你代表是不當黨產處理委員委員會的主委嘛 對不對你剛也承認啊舊國團在民國41年成立的時候他是隸屬在國防部啊那這個屬於讓國防部 那這政府來處理為什麼是黨產會來處理這個事呢第二個也很重要 你是名律師耶"},{"start":3540.06,"end":3560.695,"text":"他救火團他上最高行政法院訴訟當然他可以窮盡所有的方法去爭取他繼續做公益啊這個沒有沒有沒有衝突啊更重要的我剛講過台灣民眾黨的三大主張裡面第三個很重要就是他以後不只是非營業營利化他最重要的就是以後不要屬於任何這個政黨嘛"},{"start":3561.596,"end":3576.785,"text":"而且以後政府還是可以監督他啊他如果真的以後屬於任何政黨例如說都是在幫國民黨或是在幫民進黨人民會有意見啊所以台灣民眾黨的態度非常清楚落實三大原則他一定不能屬於任何政黨而且加強監督 謝謝"},{"start":3580.529,"end":3595.422,"text":"就政黨歌一次嘛對不對對好 政黨歌一次那當然說那個我也滿佩服剛才陳培委員所提到的但是他可能沒有做好功課都不好意思所以說宗教兵委員先迴避了"},{"start":3595.882,"end":3623.235,"text":"所以因為我這是113年6月5號對啊 那個幹事長沒關係 因為我113年6月5號所提的一個提案那他呢 兩個月前的報導還來說我是受了李乾隆那個副主席的指示所以這個時工措置這個相差一年多對 對 對那所以說這是2024年6月5號提的提案喔所以說你可能要看清楚提案日期喔"},{"start":3623.795,"end":3639.948,"text":"所以說今天來講但是我還是體諒啦沒關係啦那個什麼那剛才主委有提的因為主委畢竟有他的立場在啦那我們必須還是要講可是今天來講在這個救國團的清算的部分那這個是他已經成為民間團體的這30年"},{"start":3642.27,"end":3662.401,"text":"那這些的財產為什麼他們辦活動這些救火團不管是志工大家投入的捐獻辦活動所剩下的剩餘的部分但是現在通通都要受到一個不當會的一個充公所以說在這樣子的一個過程中我相信全民都看得很清楚"},{"start":3663.081,"end":3676.621,"text":"救護團他的形象他的角色他現在的功能以及包括他在這30年來他所存到的不管是各縣市團委會他所剩下的盈餘現在全部都要受到這個黨場會這邊來去管控甚至這30年來"},{"start":3679.945,"end":3704.7,"text":"還都要受到這樣子的財產的限制甚至沒收所以說今天來講剛才陳委員也一直在提到我也不知道過去是因為你沒有參加到救國團還是到底是什麼樣的一個印象但是其實在現在這十幾二十年來不管是鍾嘉斌委員還有包括剛才說許志業委員也包括林楚英委員蔡思英委員其實許多的委員他們其實在救國團的參與上"},{"start":3706.361,"end":3726.833,"text":"我們指定了宗家兵委員當副組委國民黨指定了宗家兵幹事長當屏東縣黨部的指導委員如果說今天來講舊國團他不是一個公益團體 備受認同為什麼連台中市的何新存委員都要跟他表達祝賀呢"},{"start":3727.353,"end":3754.244,"text":"所以其實大家都很清楚那我覺得今天要還救國團一個公道本來就是應該的那在接下來拉哩拉扎再加上了許多的各個團體啊還都要把他說這個法案通過一下說復聯一下說救總一下是不是連總統你們都要說進來所以我是覺得啊就事論事今天我們處理救國團就應該回歸問題甚至就不要再做其他的前途謝謝"},{"start":3757.25,"end":3777.9,"text":"請范雲委員那個我想那個國民黨這邊一直還有那個民眾黨一直說他是公益團體今天早上我已經講了請告訴我哪一個公益團體就是從國家可以取得這麼大量的土地"},{"start":3778.68,"end":3807.515,"text":"根據就是資訊他有61筆土地及建物我如果作為記錄要念給大家聽的話光我這邊找到的就是宜蘭縣金六節土地金門青年活動中心台北市中山區大池街土地桃園市團委會然後今天早上念的日月潭青年活動中心阿里山青年活動中心以下都是青年活動中心有復興園林曾文梅山墾丁台東天翔澎湖"},{"start":3808.135,"end":3833.771,"text":"花蓮學院 圓山莊 八菱山莊前面還有彰化縣團委會 嘉義團委會南投縣團委會 金山青年活動中心還有桃園眷舍苗栗縣團委會台北市張老師文化門市我要講的是做公益當然可以我這裡在婦女新知基金會也做過公益他做了非常多事性別工作平等法 很多法都他推的他到現在還在租房子"},{"start":3834.911,"end":3848.959,"text":"所以為什麼這個組織就是可以有這麼多的土地你要回來講歷史嘛他哪一年轉型成教育公益團體的1989年尤浩你可能年紀比較年輕那時候國會全面改選了沒有"},{"start":3849.899,"end":3868.599,"text":"還沒有嗎國會是1992年改選還沒有民主化的時候是用動員勘斷實習人民團體組織法他率先就把自己漂白變成教育公益團體財團法人可是我們今天要問的是黨產條例就是要處理這歷史的不正義那剛剛主委已經講了"},{"start":3872.482,"end":3890.535,"text":"複隨組織就看人事跟財務由浩跟主席羅志強讀一下歷史他什麼時候成立是蔣介石總統在1952年3月29號發表一個青年書然後當年要成立中國青年反共救國團"},{"start":3891.215,"end":3903.83,"text":"他指定誰他的兒子蔣經國作為第一任主任你說他隸屬於國防部他是隸屬於國防部政治部同時也在國民黨知識青年黨部組織之下"},{"start":3905.157,"end":3927.295,"text":"所以這個是人事還有財務都是就是黨國一家黨跟國指定的那他在學校裡面校長是常務委員訓導主任是秘書所以當我們要講校園民主化的時候講的是黨政軍團退出校園因為你要當校長就得當他的常務委員"},{"start":3927.995,"end":3942.591,"text":"那你說他現在已經跟他無關了請問游浩知道現在的主任是誰嗎葛永光葛永光的背景你知道嗎我當年在台大的時候他就專門就是在做國民黨的北支清書記長"},{"start":3944.744,"end":3970.584,"text":"兼台大國發所的教授所以這個人那他的老婆是誰是你們國民黨2020年的不分區所以你要告訴我說他今天回歸民間宗嘉賓只是他在地方工作做個指導你們那他就算你要說宗嘉賓得到什麼好處他不就是為了國家這些好處他也不要嗎所以我的意思是說我們當年在念高中的時候"},{"start":3971.665,"end":3999.608,"text":"全國只有舊國團一個可以進入高中讓大家參加旅遊活動所以我高中的時候的確也參加這些地方我大概一半都去了中橫我也走了就是那個什麼東海岸也走過戰鬥營也參加過因為你是唯一壟斷性讓青年參加活動的組織嘛如果不參加舊國團的活動沒有辦法去住那些山莊那都是在全國最好的高山顯見的景點那今天這些東西難道不是應該國家的嗎"},{"start":4000.549,"end":4029.749,"text":"你這個團你有本事你自己做公益嗎我們婦女薪資基金會有哪塊土地是國家給的嗎沒有嘛那你今天如果是黑熊來說我為大家做公益民進黨修法讓他有這個不被罵死了對不對他也是在為國家那你今天憑什麼擁有這些國家的土地建物你就黨產這個就是要你歸還你說要和解要有真相不要再享受特權"},{"start":4030.889,"end":4059.625,"text":"那未來你們要讓葛永光繼續當主任那是你們的事情可是他就應該要歸還所以不要把台灣沒有民主化前1989年自己去漂白的教育公益團體來騙我們大家我們這些人可能張雅玲陳培沒有參加過救國團我們當年都知道救國團怎麼一回事他就是壟斷性的做政治工作然後讓青年上山下海儘管去就是"},{"start":4061.446,"end":4075.422,"text":"就是不要來反國民黨是最好的活動那教官這些大家關係都非常的好那所以我想今天轉型正義就是講的是不要有特權給真相請大家不要呼嚨不要拿地方的哪個委員"},{"start":4076.323,"end":4100.362,"text":"就是在你們的請求下那他就是協助一下或是擔任一個掛名的指導來講那今天更證明民進黨並沒有要為自己的好處這是國家的那請大家告訴大家就是不要再有特權而且你這句話非常的可怕曾經隸屬於國家者就不在此縣耶那請問你這有沒有包含婦聯會"},{"start":4101.883,"end":4126.699,"text":"那前面講的就是附隨組織的定義後面只要有一天曾經屬於國家的那些都不算了曾經是就是是黨國一體的時候拿到的土地就是控制的人士都不算數那我們這整個轉型正義都被你因為多數翻了你如果能辯論為什麼不去委員會好好辯論清楚要這樣子近乎二讀那選在這個"},{"start":4128.46,"end":4152.995,"text":"過年的前一天送給全國青年的大禮嗎就是繼續霸佔國家的財產以上那真的沒有辦法接受就是國民黨在還有那個也應該問一下黃國昌黃國昌就是說我們這個主委根本也不是民進黨的對不對是時代力量認識黃國昌時代力量所不是一起要轉型正義嗎"},{"start":4154.837,"end":4170.192,"text":"黃國昌作為代理主席今天不敢自己親自過來違背自己曾經支持過的理念那在這邊既然大家就是直播我們要在這裡表達一個就是黃國昌不敢參加今天的協商以上"},{"start":4176.567,"end":4205.746,"text":"好謝謝主席喔那我想這幾天社群上面的關鍵字就是特權就是我們要回行一下我每個現在就是大家在流行一下我怎麼去反省我是不是一個有特權的的一個資產的一個人那其實呢救國團救國團就是一個徹徹底底享受特權的團體就像剛剛范委員說的婦女薪資到現在還在租房子那我所創辦的特工盟到現在我們也還在租所以那為什麼救國團做公益可以做到有這麼多的資產"},{"start":4207.248,"end":4233.688,"text":"這就是一個非常荒謬因為就是在當年蔣中正他自己說的舊國團是黨內重要的親運機構需要接受黨的領導這都是完全真真實實的歷史事件所以這也就說明了國民黨使用的就是公有地拿的就是國家的經費去發展那這就是不公不義強占資產把這些錢還給民眾天經地義"},{"start":4235.169,"end":4257.225,"text":"而且這些錢本來就是希望可以來做這個400億這400億可以來做很多的福利像是剛剛陳培宇委員剛剛都有講的我們學生所需要的我們人民所需要的我們年輕人所需要的還有我們年輕家庭還有我們長輩所需要的東西都可以透過這個400億有更好的一個支持同時我也想要再來反駁第二點就是說"},{"start":4259.907,"end":4287.245,"text":"剛剛永浩委員從頭到尾都在講救國團一個全民公益的形象是所有人都可以認同的那既然如此為什麼要禁服惡毒就把他送進委員會裡面好好討論他到底是不是全民所認同的公益形象就是講清楚講攤開來講不要用這種偷偷摸摸的手法禁服惡毒然後選在今天來做協商趁大家都不注意的時候偷偷來協商"},{"start":4288.326,"end":4302.205,"text":"再來還有這個油耗委員上面寫的一些提案的理由齁我真的覺得現在就是完全都違背了憲法法庭的這個7934字號的一個判一個說明齁一個解釋"},{"start":4304.252,"end":4331.161,"text":"像這個尤浩偉裡面說呢這個在案有裡面就是說這個黨產鑑於政黨及附隨組織不當取得財產處理條例呢至行政機關不當擴權嚴重侵害侵害公益團體除妨礙其正常運作亦損及社會和諧然後呢而且為了促進民主政治良心發展保障人民依法享有之憲法基本權所以來做了這一次的修法"},{"start":4331.821,"end":4346.068,"text":"可是在憲法法庭其實已經在793號解釋了這整個過程黨產條例處理的過程中是合憲的而且也維持了這個權利分立的原則而且也符合了平等原則所以這個裡面其實"},{"start":4347.348,"end":4369.278,"text":"憲法法庭已經說了處理的過程是合法合憲的可是現在有一個立法委員要用這一個法案來推翻憲法法庭所做的四字號的一個解釋那說明的是什麼是現在立法委員最大就跟你們的翁大法官一樣所有的解釋都是以國民黨的解釋來為準"},{"start":4370.839,"end":4391.262,"text":"好那再來我覺得還有最後一個很重要的重點就是說憲法法庭其實裡面有講到之所以能國民國團之所以能夠取得這些財產都是因為他當時的一個威權的地位那這次呢要處理的目的呢都是要恢復政黨公平競爭來保護自由民主憲政的秩序都是一個"},{"start":4393.324,"end":4404.912,"text":"體現正當重大的一個憲法價值這是台灣恢復法治國家本該有的一個秩序所以呢所有的處置都是為了要讓政黨可以有公平競爭"},{"start":4407.413,"end":4430.974,"text":"今天12月2號國民黨的李乾隆表示這些救國團的錢拿回去不管是救國團或是婦聯會這些黨產拿回去的錢都是要來為自己的空戰 怒戰會有助益所以這完全說明了國民黨這次提的這些修法"},{"start":4431.394,"end":4449.891,"text":"都只是為了自己的選舉為了自己的利益考量心中完全沒有人民所以我在想這個2026年國民黨的新年新希望就是把錢拿回家就是把錢拿回家人民擺一邊這就是國民黨的中心思想謝謝"},{"start":4452.923,"end":4469.831,"text":"請油耗委員剛剛提到這個報導我還是要特別提就是在不管許多的一些法案的通過那其實並不是說實際上有任何的經費可以幫助任何的政黨在空戰入戰"},{"start":4470.991,"end":4491.049,"text":"而是在為復國立民的法案來提出的時候那如果民眾認同的話那同樣那就是可以讓那所以說今天來講再講這個400億不管是今天你要無限擴大到各種的組織但是今天討論的是救國團那但是回頭來講"},{"start":4493.411,"end":4509.946,"text":"400億或者是一兆2500億等等相關我們其實看到的是其實如果今天通過法律的這些預算包括軍人加薪包括公教的部分包括警校的部分能夠早點編列"},{"start":4511.187,"end":4540.747,"text":"那我相信民眾想要看的一個憲政跟民主社會的台灣應該是要看到通過的法律該給人民的權益都能夠在立法院的通過之下來去在預算來去執行所以今天的這個黨場會那個救國團的錢沒有辦法去影響到是否會讓人民會讓我們百姓在2026年那是不是包括什麼生育津貼等等啊所以我覺得這個完全是兩個不同概念"},{"start":4541.307,"end":4555.872,"text":"那同樣剛才在范雲委員所提到的就是婦女薪資我相信也為了我們婦女權益做了許多那其實今天拿婦女薪資比照救國團沒有任何人會說婦女薪資是任何政黨的附隨組織"},{"start":4557.012,"end":4579.529,"text":"那所以說今天來講任何的一個社會團體他們為了各種權益在努力為了公義在努力我相信這個部分應該是要被認同跟支持那所以說今天來講救國團過去他所應該是要由國家來去認定的一路以來都有這個法治社會下都有相關在進行而今天來講"},{"start":4580.55,"end":4607.57,"text":"還是回頭來講不應該是由黨場會來直接更是不應該是由民進黨黨團直接幫公益團體來做主張今天一個公益團體他都有辦法還來去對了一個我們公益轉體來去做一個清算的話那將來更多的公益組織公益團體也都同樣的還會受到一樣的一個待遇跟下場那所以說本席還是在這裡再強調"},{"start":4609.171,"end":4630.311,"text":"剛才一直舉手的陳委員他一直在提著我在2024年6月5號的提案在拿兩個月前的報導還來去做一個一個提出的時候其實時間上就已經挫折了那所以還是要再次的表達其實今天這案就算是沒有共識但是也無法去抹滅還有救國團他的一個裡面"},{"start":4633.013,"end":4654.403,"text":"有各個政黨擔任同委會的委員、指導委員跟會長這個公益團體為社會的付出不應該在這30年來這些所謂的每位志工他們所累積一點一滴在救國團使用的經費還今天在黨場會來講要受到限制回到條文的內容"},{"start":4655.023,"end":4674.18,"text":"那在所謂的人事財務或業務改成集的部分那這樣子才是真正的可以做一個實際認定而不是太過於的一個無限擴大還要帶他們定義所謂的覆水組織所以今天還給民間團體公道公益不能等"},{"start":4674.66,"end":4694.676,"text":"所以在這裡也是希望這個沒有辦法說偷偷摸摸因為今天光明正大在這邊的直播三位委員在這裡堅守著針對著救護團那我相信回頭來講那這東西是公開社會可受公平的那也希望說其實像范委員也有參加救護團的活動過去也都說救護團其實不錯"},{"start":4695.997,"end":4706.945,"text":"那其實回頭來講那不然怎麼好那你沒有說救國團不錯高中的時候對收回收回但是你那時候高中也積極參與我收回但是你高中積極參與救國團的活動對"},{"start":4710.988,"end":4738.237,"text":"那再來救國團也沒有辦法去要求中嘉賓委員他要不要擔任指導委員或是副主委那是中嘉賓委員也是幹事長是心甘情願的來擔任救國團的職務那所以其實啊還在議題歸議題回到地方大家認同救國團那也在地方上希望能夠獲得救國團的支持我相信這個沒有錯"},{"start":4738.997,"end":4764.848,"text":"那所以今天救火團本來就不分藍綠不分顏色的一個公益組織那回頭來講在立院的這議事堂應該是要還給公益組織一個公道那所以回頭來講我會是希望民進黨的委員過去有參與過救火團的委員可以回歸一起來支持一個公益團體還撇開意識形態的一個局限 謝謝"},{"start":4767.591,"end":4793.872,"text":"主席我們最後一次發言好不好好 那最後一次發言好 謝謝主席尤浩回答我幾個問題就好不要說我們牽拖來 有沒有婦聯會很簡單尤浩你一定不知道什麼叫轉型正義你可能也不知道這個為什麼要這樣寫那我跟你說因為你的寫法呢是放在第四條第二款叫做附隨組織那我們就要來看看你口口聲聲只敢講救國團救國團當然目前已經是被認證的附隨組織那婦聯會你敢不敢講"},{"start":4796.974,"end":4803.797,"text":"所以不要問A答B你就承認吧附隨組織裡面就有含復聯會跟救國團這個是我要拜託你去看一下當時轉型正義人們在談的到底是什麼可是呢身為極權的捍衛者你是來自一個極權的政黨你可能不敢去看自己過往你們的政黨如何壓榨欺負殺害台灣人民所以你不想去碰我可以理解可是我就提醒你你此時此刻坐在這裡"},{"start":4824.384,"end":4837.433,"text":"附隨組織不是只有救國團還有韓富聯會所以400億理所當然請不要忘記了相關的報告裡面都有提出第二個不要再消費所有民進黨團參與過救國團活動的人"},{"start":4839.855,"end":4866.808,"text":"不要忘記了當時你們國民黨就壟斷了整個市場你們只准特定的組織特定的人辦特定的活動就只是為了洗腦前置相關言論在所有的青年還有青少年包含大學跟高中生這些歷史拜託去檔案局翻一翻看一看對於過去你們自己做過歷史不敢承認沒關係回到家偷偷看如何欺負台灣人民很清楚再來我要說的是"},{"start":4869.901,"end":4889.811,"text":"討論為什麼要禁負二讀呢大家等一下都要去看跨年煙火對不對而我們大家你在看跨年煙火國民黨在偷全民福利如果這麼光明磊落如果要為公益團體說話為什麼不敢交付委員會討論為什麼要禁負二讀甚至急著要在禮拜五可能就要表決處理了"},{"start":4892.073,"end":4912.723,"text":"很會啊利用大家看著跨年煙火的時候就躲閃過去啊等到禮拜五大家突然想到啊這件事情就要處理完了我就提醒大家這就是現在國民黨公開的偷偷摸摸公開的用禁負二讀的方法然後禮拜五快速表決不討論不讓我們發言我在這裡公開呼籲"},{"start":4914.163,"end":4929.315,"text":"國民黨跟民眾黨如果真的好意思繼續對著台灣人民說這不是為了圖利特定政黨這不是為了自肥你們國民黨所謂的自肥一條龍包含助理費的法案包含總統連署的法案那你就不要在禮拜五處理啊"},{"start":4930.196,"end":4930.956,"text":"那我也最後一次發言好了"},{"start":4957.083,"end":4973.761,"text":"那不然友浩講完主委回應我們就今天結束可以嗎OK好那請友浩好那今天來講剛才有提到的我不知道到底禮拜五是哪裡得罪了陳委員但是如果其他時間願意排協商我相信我們都配合"},{"start":4974.381,"end":4991.387,"text":"那再來的話就是今天來講的話我們也看到我們全民今天這兩天都在關注的應該是軍演下的國防安全你腦袋不清楚啊 主席我要抗議喔協商不是民進黨團排的這麼不公不義的法案排的協商是國民黨團國民黨團排的換煙煙火前他在拋全民的福利我要正中抗議你要不要回答我 婦聯會是不是附隨組織"},{"start":5003.772,"end":5029.208,"text":"今天來講任何被不當會黨場會認定的附水組織我相信非常多的樣態 黨場會有沒有正當性不是你尤浩一個人說了算 那沒關係給全民去認定所以還是請尊重發言好不好那所以說我坦白講不管是排在禮拜幾那至少是排在今天那我相信全民在關注的是軍演校的國防安全但是我看今天民進黨黨團是非常用心的關注救國團"},{"start":5030.169,"end":5033.57,"text":"那所以說回頭來講請尊重發言吧請尊重發言"},{"start":5061.124,"end":5067.475,"text":"等你們在造謠嗨你們在造謠嗨回頭來講說我們造謠那回頭來講"},{"start":5071.667,"end":5072.127,"text":"所以說今天來講還是回頭來講剛才其實都說得很清楚公益團體就是公益團體"},{"start":5091.366,"end":5106.443,"text":"那你一直在拿過去的時間在講現在的委員那我相信其實在這十幾二十年前在這十幾二十年沒有人有辦法去逼著宗家兵委員也沒有辦法有人去逼著包括童子偉議長"},{"start":5107.424,"end":5129.839,"text":"所以說我坦白講拿著過去那個那個范委員你在參加習阿仲走時期的時間再來看你要講我高中的時候對那再來講現在的時候高三的時候教官來我們班上罵我們全班一小時說為什麼本班是北一女中沒有唯一一個沒有國民黨員的班級請尊重一下發言委員好嗎其實我覺得時間挫制這個部分我也覺得也沒什麼要再討論了"},{"start":5135.623,"end":5161.143,"text":"那我在想其實大家公益團體的形象跟今天所提的循環公益團體的公道這個其實大家都很清楚那所以說所以說今天我在想這也沒有什麼共識那今天這個都是以意識形態意識形態來針對救國團其實社會各界都看在眼裡啦對啊所以說回頭來講大致上就"},{"start":5166.814,"end":5183.121,"text":"這是你們黨團文宣吧不是耶 這黨產會做出來的你要不要去團點一下你好意思講喔這是你們國民黨救國團救國團的地址在公開網站上都找得到救國團的網站找得到救國團網站找得到"},{"start":5189.389,"end":5199.979,"text":"所以啊 不要再追殺公益團體這些許多的活動中心許多的委員 你們也都去住過對 日月團是南投的救國團的所以說 救國團不適用的公益"},{"start":5209.068,"end":5221.098,"text":"你可能沒有仔細看這個提案陳委員今天的提案討論救國團你一直在提其他的組織再次重申 請尊重發言委員我們尊重主席 謝謝我們請那個林峰正主委謝謝主席"},{"start":5235.05,"end":5251.468,"text":"我要揭露一些事實也許委員不是真的那麼清楚救國團他離開政府控管的時候他沒有把使用的財產交回來這是焦點嘛至於以後誰去過那個地方並不能證明說那個地方"},{"start":5252.749,"end":5263.796,"text":"來取得了正當性啊誰參加那個團體並不能去解決他當時侵佔公產沒有交還這個事實啊你不能解決這個問題啊就連現在所謂這個公益團體他有超過50億的資產很有錢"},{"start":5271.209,"end":5290.07,"text":"那現在每年的營收20幾億那也不是一般的公益團體可以達到的境地然後我再揭露一個事實是舊軟曾經在民眾黨的柯文哲市長任內的時候他們自知理虧建壇青年活動中心那個建物原來是登記舊軟的"},{"start":5293.186,"end":5316.128,"text":"當時台北市府柯文哲市長領導台北市政府跟舊國團達成一個協議舊國團用贈語的方式把登記在舊國團名下的建壇活動中心的建物贈語給台北市政府但是要求再用8年也就是在2024年的去年年底要交還無條件交還點交清楚"},{"start":5318.359,"end":5345.471,"text":"如果舊武團覺得他沒有理虧那個財產是他做公益 他努力賺來的他為什麼要把那麼 既然清泉洪中心大家都經過吧沒有去過也經過吧 就在這邊不遠啊為什麼他願意把那麼大幾千坪的建物交還給台北市政府結果呢去年底時間到了 偷偷拉登記了點交沒有 交還沒有 沒有耶"},{"start":5347.947,"end":5363.841,"text":"台北市政府居然說讓他暫時再使用今年已經2025年12月31號過了一年了說要給他暫用暫時使用結果他沒有離開耶他每年幾億的收入在健談健康中心幾億的收入在收"},{"start":5367.477,"end":5381.13,"text":"那這個事實不應該處理嗎這個特權是現在進行式不只是過去式還是現在進行式為什麼現在還不處理呢那我們認定是負稅組織之後經過了六年法院判了我們贏"},{"start":5382.864,"end":5403.336,"text":"法院認證說救護團就是國民黨的負責組織好那你救護團上訴我們都尊重啊那等最高行政法院判嘛為什麼這麼急在這個時候修法迴避掉讓法院審判的空間都不肯都不肯讓法院好好判那後面講的所謂我們拿要求他的財產收歸國有我每一件都舉證"},{"start":5405.209,"end":5426.438,"text":"為什麼這個財產要交回來因為當初是哪一筆錢哪一筆錢去買那個土地去建的那個建物我們都是有憑有據我們才處分所以我們處分只有一些不動產還有16億啊我剛講的救援資產超過50億我們沒有全部拿耶當然我們還要再繼續調查因為這裡面千絲萬縷"},{"start":5427.899,"end":5452.676,"text":"所以我再強調的是 法院已經判了嘛法院在審判 為什麼連讓法院判都不願意 都不敢好 那你說要修法 也可以那你回到委員會 我們好好來談嘛為什麼要禁錮二讀這個是不能接受的 謝謝好 我來宣布協商結論本日協商未取得共識 送請院會處理 以上今天散會 謝謝"},{"start":5459.844,"end":5471.611,"text":"是誰啊 國民黨啊不公公義 國民黨咋子當場不屁啊 國民黨不屁啊假公義 真圖利 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邱淑芬金管會保險局副組長王啟華好那"},{"start":2968.513,"end":2988.152,"text":"本案提報院會並案審查報告保留者為法案名稱及第一條條文今天進行方式是請勞動部先說明再請各位委員提出意見最後會縱協商結論請各黨團簽名現在進行法案名稱討論請先請勞動部說明"},{"start":2999.485,"end":3015.836,"text":"然后还有今天各党的委员大家好那我们今天要进行这个外送专法的在委员会的协商那我想从在12月的时候我们"},{"start":3018.317,"end":3042.105,"text":"12月初12月3号当时在这个两天的审查那出委员会以后那现在剩下一个一个是法案的名称跟第一条的部分那我想还是想跟各位委员说明那我们为什么会对于目前的这个法案的名称我们还是会我们还是会有一些比较觉得"},{"start":3043.726,"end":3058.714,"text":"不能够去放弃的一些意见我还是想跟委员说明其实这个法在蛮长的时间其实今天在坐满几位委员也都在之前就有提案"},{"start":3059.674,"end":3074.91,"text":"蛮长的时间在行政部门之间之所以当时对于立法的框架或者是立法的路径还很难取得一个共识的一个很大的原因就是因为"},{"start":3076.491,"end":3096.461,"text":"很多委员的提案把这个案子是提在未还委员会那指定的主管机关这个法的主管机关指定是劳动部可是当我们审到这边其实我想很多委员也清楚这个法涉及的面向尤其是外送平台的管理的面向真的不是不仅只是劳动部而已"},{"start":3097.748,"end":3112.424,"text":"那后来其实我跟委员说明我记在今年的上半年应该是上半年的时候我们跟我们的同仁在讨论我后来我其实是我们愿意我们下了一个决定把这个法的主管机关给"},{"start":3113.465,"end":3136.292,"text":"扛下来一个很大的原因是因为我们确实看到了很多国家的相关的立法的出发点都是从外送员的权益保障来出发的因为我很清楚看到我请我们的同仁把各个国家做外送立法相关的法律给拿出来绝大多数都是从"},{"start":3137.612,"end":3157.121,"text":"几乎所有都是从外送员的权益的角度出发的当我看到这件事情以后我就很清楚如果我们比照国际或参考国际的经验的话的确在这个立法里面是从这个地方出发我想劳动部对相关的责任是我们是很难回避跟闪避的"},{"start":3157.541,"end":3172.869,"text":"也因为这样所以我们毅然决然的当初在上半年我们就不再去坚持到底这个法是要给目的事业主管机关管还是劳动部这边管我们就决定好我们愿意把这件事情给扛下来这个法的管理给扛下来"},{"start":3173.729,"end":3202.705,"text":"可是如果是从把这个法的管理给扛下来这件事情来说的话我们也希望在法规的名称上面可以名副其实也就是我劳动部之所以愿意把这个法的主管机关给扛下来的原因就是因为我知道的确外送员的保障是在这里面的重中之重是最重要的一个切入点之一所以在法案的名称上面"},{"start":3204.13,"end":3222.51,"text":"我就希望能够名副其实尤其是如果大家来检视这个条文的内容的时候的确大多数蛮多的条文是在处理这个外送员的权益的问题所以这是为什么我们希望在法案法规的名称上面一定希望能够把外送员的权益保障给凸显出来很重要的原因"},{"start":3223.735,"end":3249.702,"text":"那可是当然这里面也牵涉到平台产业的管理所以平台的管理我们也可以发我们也认为可以放在里面可是如果今天在这个立法的名称上面他第一个要把所有的利害相关方全部都放到这个法案名称这真的过去可能我不知道可以问一下立法院真的应该也不太早找不太到这样子的立法的案例要把所有的利害相关方都放到一个法规的名称上面"},{"start":3250.762,"end":3275.302,"text":"我是没有什么印象哪一个法是把所有的利害相关方都放到法规名称上比如说船员法我们也不会说船员与船东与船公司与船长怎么说我们不会我们也不会把法规名称这样去处理确实它也涉及到很多方的关系可是我们不会这样去处理那在这个逻辑上我们就希望能够把外送员是凸显出来可是要放"},{"start":3276.463,"end":3303.994,"text":"外送平台的管理我们这当然OK因为里面这个法里面有很多部分是这样我们是基于这样的想法上面所以我知道委员们可能有两种想法一种是希望能够尽量把所有的利害相关方都放上来可是真的在立法的过去的案例里面真的是没有看过这样子的例子另外一种是如果他叫做外送平台管理法可是我说实话今天如果这个法叫外送平台管理法的话那他其实就应该是交通部主管"},{"start":3305.458,"end":3335.198,"text":"他就不应该是劳动部主管所以这是为什么我们还是比较希望在这种种种的想法下还是比较希望是说是在立法的法案名称上面把外送员的权益保障跟平台管理这两件事情还是这两件事情这两件事情为法案名称的最主要的主体我们就会觉得比较适切这样子好那先请洪梦凯委员发言接下来请黄建豪委员发言"},{"start":3335.714,"end":3361.125,"text":"好 感謝肯定召委再次排案協商希望在2025年的最後一天我們有好的結果部長剛剛講了那麼多其實部長我覺得2350萬人或是我們15萬的外送員真的不care說你到底是外送平台放前面還是外送員放前面我覺得沒那麼care重點在於是要外送專訪出來這個是我們對於民眾的承諾"},{"start":3364.406,"end":3388.674,"text":"這也是行政部門不管過去部長擔任立法委員或是現在擔任部長其實很大的一個主張我記得2024年5月1號我們一起你那時候還是立法委員的時候我們一起在樓下的時候也有針對勞團我們也講是說外送專法要趕快過所以統稱都叫外送專法他就是要外送平台的管理外送員的保障消費者的保障餐廳的保障"},{"start":3389.574,"end":3413.165,"text":"然後讓劣幣不要驅逐良幣讓良幣可以留下來所以我覺得比較簡單大家看一下討論第21我們所有委員的版本以及還有黨團的版本它其實就是外送平台管理要放前面還是外送員權益保障要放前面但實際上都一樣"},{"start":3414.105,"end":3428.023,"text":"那我觉得请劳动部告诉我们说你的院版到底那个时候你们是怎么定因为其实就只有两个有总共有十几个快二十个提案但其实就是两个版本"},{"start":3429.444,"end":3454.552,"text":"所以如果说我们已经简化成这样了那就二则一的话重点是概念不变核心精神不变保障外送员的权益不变管理平台精神不变我觉得我没有坚持虽然我的版本是外送平台管理即从业人员权益保障法但我没有坚持我要的是实质顶多一个部分请大家讨论到底平台的台是写"},{"start":3455.572,"end":3477.822,"text":"比較簡單的台還是那個比較對因為這個我比較不確定為什麼有人寫那個台有人寫這個台那等一下請是不是法務部門或者說相關部門告訴我們平台台要哪一個台那其他到底是外送員放前面外送平台放前面我沒有堅持因為這個是外送專法我們讓他有實質的推進比什麼都重要以上謝謝"},{"start":3479.79,"end":3502.1,"text":"好请黄建豪委员发言好谢谢我想因为我的版本本来也是所谓的外送平台管理及从业人员权益保障法这个草案但是因为上次其实上次讨论的时候已经提到说不要放从业人员从业人员可能包含的暴露暴露万象他所有的后台什么等等的都属于这个范畴里面所以第一个当然我听进去有说我想有尊重部长意见的说外送员就好"},{"start":3502.66,"end":3529.938,"text":"好 那其實我也沒有一定要堅持平台或外送員放前面啦坦白說真的是這樣因為其實這個法案內容比較重要那名稱上因為部長剛才說了吧就是我們今天做這個法案的目的是希望保障外送員所以外送員可能是這個法的主體那當然我覺得如果名稱上要讓外送員放在前面我也沒有反對意見但是我覺得外送平台還是應該把它放在法案名字上面以上 謝謝好 請林岳勤委員發言"},{"start":3531.676,"end":3552.418,"text":"也謝謝剛剛前面兩位委員發言 看起來大家就比較有共識 為什麼 因為我覺得今天過去為什麼要去訂這個法無非也是勞動權益真的尤其事實上是不管是兼職全職 過去一直事實上沒有明定他們跟平台之間的關係的話 那他尤為事實上是比較弱勢 而且加上我們這法條幾乎"},{"start":3553.578,"end":3579.675,"text":"非常高的比例那都是在針對於外送員的權益啦所以我認為我還是會覺得應該我的版本事實上本來就是把外送員權益保障也是我們對這一群人這麼勞苦功高在台灣這樣子在COVID-19的時機帶動之下已經這麼多人投入的話對這15萬人也有所一些交代所以我認為還是放在前面如果剛剛兩位都沒有堅持我覺得這是一個好"},{"start":3580.575,"end":3598.326,"text":"那只是後邊我的是有加外送平台管理法那我的台大致上是比較國資那個台所以到時候待會真的再看到要用什麼樣的台那其他我覺得今天如果第一條能夠走能夠把它走完的話那是更好加大有共識以上"},{"start":3599.8,"end":3617.18,"text":"請陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席雖然我們本黨是第一個提出這一部法案的這個草案的黨團那但是我想我們這過去兩天的曾經的討論事實上把我們要的精神跟共識都已經取得了包括這個最低薪資的保障"},{"start":3617.74,"end":3646.112,"text":"包括他申訴管道的一個確實性然後他所要受到的應該有的這個紙災保險或等等這三個主要的精神我們都已經做到也有公示所以最後這個對於名詞的處理方式我們民眾黨沒有開放就是說尊重大家的討論那剛剛部長提的部分我們覺得也是聽得下去就可以接受我們就沒有堅持要我們自己的版本謝謝"},{"start":3647.83,"end":3677.21,"text":"好請部長補充我覺得這樣討論是我們可以讓很多事情可以想得更周全因為在當時在12月初的時候討論我記得那個名詞後來稍微保留一個原因是因為大家也覺得要在這裡面怎麼樣子去讓消費者或者是商家也覺得他是在這裡面被關切或者是被照顧的其中一份其實這個利益我是可以"},{"start":3677.99,"end":3698.645,"text":"理解的而且我其實也是同意的那我想要說的事情說因為我們之前在12月初當時的委員會的審議的時候其實我覺得對於商家跟消費者在這個法律裡面的幫助或照顧或協助其實我認為我們是可以論述的更清楚的"},{"start":3701.091,"end":3726.674,"text":"這個法絕對不是只保障外送員不是這個法對於店家對消費者也有幫助我想說明一下對店家跟消費者的幫助第一個比方說對於商家來說我們接下來可以透過這個契約的範本那在裡面把應記載跟不得記載的事項放進去舉例來說可能可以出一些問題包括"},{"start":3727.535,"end":3755.564,"text":"争议处理的机制可以未来在这些缺犯本里面就把它明定来避免平台可能单方面的不一定合理的条款这是可以对于商家合作的商家有一定权利的保障那有一个很重要的部分是我们透过这个法要求平台必须要保存货款的计算交易的往来跟争议处理的记录这个data必须保存下来"},{"start":3756.164,"end":3777.188,"text":"所以等到出问题的时候如果有什么争执的时候可以把这个data调出来来去处理相关的争议而不会遇到可能过去就是说这个店家手上都没有资料或者是找不到而无从追究或无从救济申诉的问题他也必须把这保留下来对消费者其实也是"},{"start":3779.079,"end":3806.157,"text":"有这个法以后可以避免平台在一些状况他会不会免责或者是模糊责任甚至他会去限制退费的范围等等会损害消费者权益的状况也可以比较避免平台单方面的去制定可能对消费者不一定有利的条款这个透过我们这次的修法里面也可以保障到这件事情也包括刚刚讲到这个交易的data的保存也可以保留下来"},{"start":3806.497,"end":3830.985,"text":"所以今天要做任何的申诉的时候也可以把这些可能过去的这些消费的资料给调出来来去做佐证来去做印证来去做厘清这都是对于消费者的权益很重要的一个部分所以我要说的事情说其实我们我在媒体上面说过蛮多次这个外送的专法如果用刚才红木卡委员说好假设简称叫外送专法他确实他处理的是四方关系"},{"start":3831.772,"end":3840.612,"text":"但这四方关系还是必须有一个认识的前提是在修法以前这四方关系里面平台是在权力里面相对优势的"},{"start":3841.929,"end":3867.503,"text":"外送员是在这四方关系里面相对弱势的因为他担负了安全的问题风险的问题甚至包括可能自己要担负一堆机车的成本油耗的成本维修的成本他在相对弱势的所以这是一个四方关系可是里面还是有强弱也因为有强弱所以我们会特别需要帮助在这关系里面相对比较弱的那一环支撑起他的基本权益我们这个法处理的是"},{"start":3868.664,"end":3886.23,"text":"保障基本权益的部分我们不是要帮他加到多高的薪水不是是基本权益的概念好所以如果从这个角度我还是想重申一些这个事情那所以我自己是比较建议还是比较建议说是不是可以就像刚刚两位委员说我们在法的名称里面看是"},{"start":3888.038,"end":3915.784,"text":"外送呃外送人权益跟平台保障好那就留这两个元素就留这两个元素但是要哪一个先哪一个后我觉得我们可以讨论可是希望留这两个元素可是如果把所有厉害情况放下来这真的太长了或者如果只有平台管理的话那真的也太不像劳动部我们所有的劳动部主管的法规里面当然没有任何一个法规是产业管理法我们的我们的问题是这样子的对"},{"start":3917.421,"end":3945.171,"text":"好謝謝勞動部長說明補充說明其實就是這兩條就今天要討論的名稱跟第一條就是基本上就是涵蓋剛剛所有的討論最核心的討論那要首先感謝所有委員同仁然後還有勞動部真的很努力還有現在在線上的這個外送員工會們還有外送員們其實他們也是扮演這個推動很大的角色因為過去像部長說的事實上各國的立法"},{"start":3945.891,"end":3971.693,"text":"包含現在台灣的也是先從外送源因為發現他們太弱勢了太弱勢了在演算法下面太弱勢了所以從他們出發然後開始來推動立這個法所以本席認為這個元素是絕對要有沒有錯然後外送平台管理的元素也要有沒有錯那當然從上一次討論到今天其實討論越深之後其實所有的法條裡面也牽扯到各個跨部會"},{"start":3972.794,"end":3999.505,"text":"包含剛剛說的四方關係所以包含這個消費者還有合作商家那也可以發現這段時間呢也有平台業者開始在做可能針對商家或甚至是針對消費者在做各種的問卷或甚至是一些一些相關的宣傳那所以也開始延伸說那開始也發現很多外送員商有很多外送商合作商家也覺得自己權益過去"},{"start":4000.325,"end":4027.802,"text":"有很多的不滿就是很多的缺失的部分甚至還有這個消費者的部分也是所以今天在討論這個部分的時候本席是認為這個是很重要的一個觀念和觀點所以我覺得名稱當然這兩個元素沒有問題但是實質上面要對於接下來的商家合作商家以及消費者的這個權益的保障可能要"},{"start":4028.742,"end":4053.068,"text":"說的更就是未來在訂定的時候也要把他們訂的更明確一點好那我們當然希望的最好是大家都共贏共好好產業也因此也會就是大家都各方權益都可以顧及的情況之下可以穩健的發展我想這是今天這個法很重要的一個部分啊好所以本席是認為那名稱的名稱順序各位委員有沒有什麼建議還是說把平台"},{"start":4054.164,"end":4079.566,"text":"外送平臺管理暨外送員權益保障法這樣子好不好外送平臺管理暨外送員權益保障法好請林月秦委員我認為還是把既然我們的主體事實上是外送員所以我覺得把外送員權益所以能不能還是把外送員權益放在前面後面再有那個外送平臺的管理這樣"},{"start":4082.514,"end":4106.648,"text":"請問請問其他委員有什麼其他的意見沒有沒有意見好OK那我覺得本期那這裡就要強調等一下第一條因為我認為這件事情就是在第一條的時候也要把另外的利害關心人包含外送商這個合作商家以及"},{"start":4111.623,"end":4136.734,"text":"主席不好意思因為很多委員用記但是剛剛我們法務部其實提醒說現在其實應該在法律處理名稱的處理上應該是要用集比記來得好所以可能要用集所以我們還是希望用集所以是這個外送員權益集權益保障集"},{"start":4138.311,"end":4164.721,"text":"外送平台管理辦法管理法管理法所以是外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法好不好那是不是要寫一下我們要有需要因為現在是要好像要書面了請勞動部提出確定文字請勞動部提出確定文字然後還有台到底是簡寫還是還是反寫的"},{"start":4168.406,"end":4192.268,"text":"對就是好那我剛想要表達就是說第一條的部分希望勞動部是不是也修正把上次那個上次上次有有爭議的部分也就是說把其他的利害關係人把寫進去我們在審查的過程中也發現其他的利害關係人也都很有有他們需要被保障的地方好不好好"},{"start":4194.966,"end":4215.863,"text":"那我们现在针对第一条吼那第一条有有两项嘛吼那我们其实也考虑了我们的期待那我们的所以我们的想法是这样吼就是说我们是不是可以在第一条我念一下我们现在的想法第一个是说未保障外送员顿耗"},{"start":4217.044,"end":4240.419,"text":"管理外送平台业者盾号维护消费者及合作商家权益斗号然后加上一句以横评各方权利义务关系斗号特制定本法这是在第一项也就是在倒数第二句的就是在特制定本法前加上一个以横评各方权利义务关系"},{"start":4241.68,"end":4252.948,"text":"這個加在前面來部長是不是可以請你們先提供文字給各個委員先發下來然後然後我們先把剛剛的名稱最後你們看到名稱的定案"},{"start":4255.114,"end":4282.026,"text":"名稱的部分有沒有有沒有問題如果名稱沒問題我們就是依照剛剛修正上來的版本好我再講我再念一次你們那個名稱跟第一條也都都一併給委員看好了就是外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法請問其他委員有沒有名稱也給他們好那名稱沒有問題我們是不是名稱就"},{"start":4284.54,"end":4309.361,"text":"好 召委我想大家既然都是三方三個黨團都在這邊跟行政部門我們也做出很大一個善意跟讓步那我們也不堅持那這個就一定是三方的一個共識就是未還委員會的共識因為本席不禁注意到感覺行政部門很堅持的就是某黨團的版本的名稱"},{"start":4310.402,"end":4320.398,"text":"那我不多做揣測但我說這就一定就會是我們三方的一個共識未還委員會把所有的版本都納進去然後一起送出好不好以上"},{"start":4321.01,"end":4342.56,"text":"其實就是仲裁各位委員的意見然後通過的這個法因為畢竟也有修正文字所以這是仲裁各位委員的意見因為其實各位委員都有提到也都有關注其他的利害關係方好不好這是一個很很很好的民生法案所以沒有問題那再來第一條的部分大家看一下請那個建豪委員"},{"start":4343.598,"end":4365.695,"text":"好谢谢赵伟那个我想要请部长说明一下就是因为第一条部分你们特别放进了这几个文字就是以横评各方权利义务关系就是因为这个过去之前没有没有特别讲到事情说我们放了这个文字的用意放跟不放的差别他的特定的目的是什么可不可以请行政部门说明一下谢谢"},{"start":4366.874,"end":4388.68,"text":"好我说我先说明因为其实当初之所以第一条保留的原因是因为我们在审议的时候当初应该是王玉明委员那看到觉得我们的说明栏写得很好所以他觉得应该要把说明栏整个变成是第一条的内容"},{"start":4389.66,"end":4416.208,"text":"可是我们原本的说明很坦白说那里面有一些我们在检视他也有时候有些叙述也有一点最所以我们也仲裁大家的意见如果觉得我们原本的第一条写的太简化的话那把一些重要的概念我们再把它放到第一条的第一项跟第二项里面所以我们选择把这个第一项里面就放入这个以横评各方权利义无关系"},{"start":4417.148,"end":4443.993,"text":"那把这个关键字把它放到第一条的条文这个第一项的第一条第一项的条文里面去凸显我们花了很多心力都在想的是横评各方权利无关系这件事情那就会比原本我们的第一条第一项再来的这个讯息的量再多一点再丰富一点再完整一点那我们把这放进来这是我们把它第一项这样放的原因"},{"start":4444.873,"end":4460.343,"text":"那第二项呢原本我们是写说外送员权益保障及外送平台业者管理那就像刚刚包括赵伟各个委员说的大家都很重视包括合作商家跟消费者之间所以我们在"},{"start":4461.804,"end":4477.999,"text":"第二项的第一行我们就把它再加上外送员逗号顿号外送员顿号合作商家顿号消费者之权利保障就把其他两个大家也很在意的"},{"start":4478.88,"end":4505.869,"text":"这个合作商家跟消费者也摆到我们第二项里面来那更凸显大家其实一直在这个很关注的或者很很悉心在在修订的是针对这四方的关系的权利义务这样子所以我们这是我们修订第一条的第一项跟第二项的原因以上跟各位委员报告好请陈昭之委员发言"},{"start":4507.284,"end":4528.974,"text":"主席基本上當然這些說法是ok的但是在那個部長在邏輯上因為你加了一個橫評各方權利義務這個好像就是四個是相當當然我們心裡有數是最弱者相對是最弱者是外送員但是到第二到第二項的時候你那個次序"},{"start":4530.274,"end":4545.006,"text":"就外送員合作商家消費者的權益保障這三個是權益保障但是外送平台的重點是要管理他們那當然精神上或許如此可是這樣的話就跟你的第一項"},{"start":4546.753,"end":4567.248,"text":"為了橫平各方權利義務關係那樣講法好像又有一點好像看起來四平八穩但事實上兩項有一點邏輯相同沒有誤你到底是保障三方管一方還是大家真的是一個橫平關係"},{"start":4568.661,"end":4589.418,"text":"就請你再拿捏一下然後這個合作廠商外送員合作廠商消費者當然我不知道次序剛剛我們對前面題目的次序那麼在意那這個地方的這個次序呢對還是因為其實第一項跟第二項的那個順序對不對也要對稱一下可能要調整一下順序就是你第一項跟第二項是不是順序上或者是邏輯上要對稱"},{"start":4599.878,"end":4629.202,"text":"這外送員第一都沒有問題可是你第一項是先外送員然後管理平台然後消費者和商家可是到了第二項的時候又跳到外送員合作商家消費者在最後是平台這個部分有沒有需要調整那如果這樣的話我們可不可以一個想法的調整就是說因為的確是外送員跟消費者跟合作商家他比較是他的權益他比較是權益就動詞上應該是他的權益權益的維護或權益的保障就是這三者"},{"start":4629.882,"end":4645.408,"text":"那对平台因为他就是我们来讲四方里面相对比较优势的那一方他手上有这些数位工数位技术跟演算法所以他是一个我们应该对他是一个管理的的动词所以如果这样的话把第一项是不是变为保障外送员"},{"start":4646.488,"end":4668.366,"text":"消费者及合作商家权益然后后面在并管理外送呗就是一样都是把我就我们的顺序上都是外送员就是我们就明确外送员合作商家消费者然后后面就是平台管理我们的顺序上就把它逻辑一致化这样这也是可以然后对我来请孟凯委员"},{"start":4669.557,"end":4695.869,"text":"其实这样看起来大家手上都有拿到这个就是说我觉得第一段跟第二段开头其实有点重复跟赘语当然我不知道说这样子设计有没有什么特殊的目的但如果说这样看起来其实你就是我从第二段开始就是保障外送员盾号合作商家盾号消费者之权益及外送平台业者管理"},{"start":4696.869,"end":4717.657,"text":"那横评各方权益义务之关系特定定本法那依本法之规定那这样是不是可以把第一段跟第二段可以中整起来也许会更精简但核心精神不变我想刚刚部长也说明了就说其实外送员合作商家消费者是比较多的是权益的保障"},{"start":4718.317,"end":4742.237,"text":"那外送平台业者是管理那但是在这中间这四方都有权利义务的关系所以你必须要横平所以这个文字其实差不多立法精神我们都可以认同但是文字的部分能不能更精简一点我想这个就有赖说这个幕僚作业不然我现在看起来是第一段跟第二段其实有一点点"},{"start":4743.968,"end":4760.127,"text":"醉有沒有有點醉字其實就是把那個第一項的後面兩句話放到第二項對你的意思是這樣然後把它變成一項沒錯 趙偉你接收到我的point"},{"start":4760.427,"end":4781.346,"text":"所以我想说就是横评各方权益义务关系我觉得要保留这一句话横评各方权益义务关系要保留是因为确实啊也有我们之前一直在讲就是说如果真的很不良肃清不良的外送员也要有淘汰机制退场机制所以要横评各方权益义务关系那把它保留但是看怎么样这两段变成一段"},{"start":4781.926,"end":4808.16,"text":"也許更精簡但是又不會說像剛剛有陳創作委員提到就是說可能有重複或說那個矛盾衝突的狀況能不能我們不是以往都有電腦嗎能不能電腦如果還是今天跨年沒有加班是不是學生沒有電腦OK學生沒有電腦好那我交通委員會怎麼印象中有好沒關係"},{"start":4811.281,"end":4834.269,"text":"我们是这样想就是说我懂洪委员的意思就是说不要有些话这么重复那四个不用一讲再讲这样子然后这部分可以精简一点可是我认为在第一项他有个特制定本法这是蛮重要的因为这是一个立法的例子里面常常都有这你你是要来做什么的"},{"start":4835.189,"end":4847.433,"text":"我不知道可不可以請求主席可以休息個也許5到10分鐘我們這邊把那個這個條文再中整一下好不好然後再給大家來休息5分鐘好不好 好休息5分鐘餵飽"},{"start":4885.158,"end":4899.687,"text":"衛保障外送員如果參加消費者的權益衛保障外送員或民台消費者的權益及外送民台業者的管理以恆平各方關係 特定立法那依本法的規定"},{"start":4901.669,"end":4907.913,"text":"變成兩端變一貫兩端變一向對 兩端變一向這個要問一下"},{"start":4919.136,"end":4934.727,"text":"看一下看一下"},{"start":5109.221,"end":5109.562,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5247.745,"end":5252.126,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5282.901,"end":5282.921,"text":"有問題嗎"},{"start":5446.274,"end":5459.714,"text":"那就開始吧好為了節省大家的時間那我們就開始囉那勞動部已經把這個最後修正的版本送出來那我們要不要請這個後委司長來念一遍"},{"start":5465.718,"end":5489.765,"text":"第一條為保障外送員動號 消費者動號 合作商家之權益及管理外送平台業者逗點以橫屏各方權利義務關係特制定本法全項鎖定權益保障及管理依本法之規定那 以下就沒有修改了好 我們就OK好 那各位委員有沒有意見好 沒有意見"},{"start":5490.936,"end":5504.444,"text":"趙志偉沒有 洪峰凱委員沒有意見那行政部門也沒有意見那我們就這樣子通過請行政機關修正提供相關立法說明那現在宣告以下協商結論"},{"start":5506.19,"end":5532.988,"text":"法案名稱仲裁各位委員的意見法案名稱為外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法第一條條文也仲裁各位的意見照協商結果通過如附件含立法說明第三其餘均照審查會審查結果通過請問大家有無意見沒有意見請各黨團簽名"},{"start":5535.168,"end":5535.689,"text":"然後散會"}]}},{"id":"17164","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17164","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d1053bf0f00000d757dcced848bcac9d0fd00d8c029a2fce542e0220741408cff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-31T14:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院委員羅智強、許宇甄等24人擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-31","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-31T13:31:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-31T14:53:00+08:00","duration":4864,"影片長度":"01:21:04","委員發言時間":"13:31:56 - 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我們現在協商時間已到我們現在開始黨團協商會議本日協商本院委員羅志強 徐宇甄等24人你據國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案"},{"start":1992.441,"end":2017.408,"text":"今114年12月2日第11屆第4次會期第11次院會決定自外交集國防委員會抽出進覆二讀並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商今天由本席代表國民黨黨團來主持這次的協商會議在協商進行之前我們先介紹到場的委員首先介紹羅志強委員還有"},{"start":2024.501,"end":2029.463,"text":"陳俊宇委員以及沈博洋委員林義軍委員接下來介紹機關的與會代表首先介紹我們國防部副部長徐思簡徐副部長石文龍石參事政治作戰局張維新張副局長"},{"start":2054.841,"end":2069.154,"text":"政治作戰局軍眷服務處 胡定明 胡副處長法律事務司法規訴願處 邱貞慧 邱處長主計局特種基金處 林貴平 林處長"},{"start":2073.922,"end":2086.073,"text":"以及法務部參事廖江縣廖參事行政院主計總處吳明修吳專門委員行政院主計總處戴群芳戴專門委員"},{"start":2090.455,"end":2107.879,"text":"我們現在開始進行協商本院委員羅志強徐宇甄等24人擬拒國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案修正的重點是在放寬現行關於老舊眷村的定義請各位參閱議案關係文書以及"},{"start":2110.04,"end":2124.617,"text":"修正草案对照表与会委员如有修正动议或机关有建议内容请提出书面印发现场进行讨论现在请提案委员说明首先请罗志强委员"},{"start":2126.436,"end":2153.032,"text":"主席 各位委員以及列席官員大家好這個國軍老舊眷稱改建條例的這一次本席的提的修法版本實際上要特別強調它不是重啟眷改政策它是要已經把走到尾聲的眷改制度在我的版本裡面把不公平的地方收尾處理好那還給這批住戶就是慈恩巴春這批住戶應有的權利"},{"start":2154.173,"end":2180.194,"text":"事实上国防部在民国在85年度就已经规划将慈仁八村原眷户迁到台北市万隆营区的改建基地当时就已经把保留慈仁八村眷户迁购及规划列入计算并不是凭空便出的这一个所谓的需要事实上省纪部他也督促全责机关应该要积极的"},{"start":2181.335,"end":2204.268,"text":"來研擬具體對策加速去化卷改的餘戶才能夠提升財務效能所以審計部報告也指出在105及106年間研擬卷改條例修正草案呈韓報大院審議就是要保留台北市萬隆營區改建戶50戶給慈仁八村的原卷戶"},{"start":2205.569,"end":2220.466,"text":"那本来当时是说无需修法要以事实认定但是呢事实上到113年8月底子并没有针对慈恩八村原眷户的后续处置有一些适切的作为所以"},{"start":2221.247,"end":2248.595,"text":"反而原来眷改保留户及部分待处理余户的长期空置无法去化跟运用每年要负担管理费达一千两百余万也容易影响屋况这是为什么今天本席要提出来老旧眷村的改建条例这部分的修法它就是我在强调不是要创造一个新的眷村眷改的政策"},{"start":2249.275,"end":2266.323,"text":"那之前我们在跟国防部协调的时候国防部也知道这个修法的影响范围并不广泛后续也没有再要新建那这是面对一个旧制度留下已经被看见的不公平问题所以修法是为了指针收尾让制度完整落幕"},{"start":2266.903,"end":2290.283,"text":"那放在那边让这慈恩八村的住户放在那边等于是完全不管坦白讲我觉得对这个借用户其实也是非常的不公平也不是一个负责任的选项以上所以希望我们能够今天能够来把这个遗留的问题本来国防部就该做的事情今天把它好好的把它做足以上"},{"start":2294.079,"end":2304.194,"text":"好 接下來請出席的黨團代表表示意見我們各黨團輪流發言每位委員發言時間五分鐘請沈伯陽委員"},{"start":2309.569,"end":2323.93,"text":"謝謝主席那這一件事情因為這個是近乎二讀啦所以呢這個我覺得因為畢竟他能夠影響的這個金額還是蠻廣泛的如果說他只是以慈仁八村這個案件為例的話大概是影響到4億嘛"},{"start":2325.351,"end":2349.906,"text":"如果是按照修法的版本它是說指本條例公佈施行前且有改建必要這個如果都納進去的話雖然剛剛提案的委員有說明說它不是一個新的卷改的政策但是它就會有不是只有針對慈仁八村而是可能會有其他的會被納入的情況這個資益有可能會到30多億"},{"start":2350.966,"end":2370.676,"text":"畢竟我覺得這個也是一個大數字所以其實如果能夠在委員會討論當然最好我先講一下就是說因為慈仁八村這一個案例我自己也知道我覺得個案要怎麼討論這個是可以再說但如果要用修法來處理的話會有幾個疑問第一個疑問當然就是說因為原本是說民國69年對不對"},{"start":2373.237,"end":2379.199,"text":"那因為慈仁八村是78年興建完成其實差得蠻多的所以他一開始其實就完全不在原本的民國69年這個範圍裡面那為什麼他也會跟這個其他的一起進行呢也是因為國防部當時是有疏失的所以這個呢明明他沒有符合結果卻把他送去做這一個把他造冊然後進入到改建總冊所以這個有疏失這個疏失其實也被處罰了"},{"start":2401.747,"end":2427.335,"text":"所以我会认为说我们把这几个事情把它分类清楚捐改这件事情它会有受益者也会有受害者受害者就是说之前在捐改条例的时候其实条件定的其实是有一些疑问所以我记得那时候监察院有出一些报告有一些伪造强迫他们要能够签下同意书它其实是有受害者的"},{"start":2428.315,"end":2444.049,"text":"當然也有受益者就是說在過去對於在眷村這些居住的以及婦聯會捐款興建的什麼等等之類的它會有受益的受益的又分兩類一部分它是合法"},{"start":2444.349,"end":2458.997,"text":"因為畢竟條文就在那邊說明國69年12月31號以後新建完成的軍眷住宅所以它是在條文它是合法的授意但也會有剛剛講的那個情形就是因為行政的問題所以它是違法的授意"},{"start":2460.097,"end":2479.765,"text":"如果我們今天在修法的時候是把違法的授意把它納入到法條裡面的話這其實就是有點在主張違法平等我看資料裡面我就可以看到就是說因為慈仁八尊他是有提起訴願提起訴願之後他也有進入到高等行政法院跟最高行政法院的判決"},{"start":2481.005,"end":2499.857,"text":"最後也是去要審後來是沒有辦法又再提出大法官的釋憲後來決議是不受理所以他其實在司法程序其實已經是解決了如果說我們今天在司法程序上不能夠解決的都要來修法的話這個司法程序就變得沒有什麼太大的意義"},{"start":2501.237,"end":2523.187,"text":"但是我是說這一個個案畢竟在當時國防部在做的時候有出現這樣的一個疏失這個疏失是有被懲處沒有錯這個個案是否能不能夠再討論或許等一下國防部可以再說明但如果說我們要用修法的方式去違背了不管是司法的判決還是說現行條文本身的規定因為是民國69年你現在是民國78年要納進去這個年份差得有點久"},{"start":2527.569,"end":2544.9,"text":"而且现在大安区因为慈仁八村在大安区这一个大安区的平均屋龄大概是41年慈仁八村78年到现在36 37年左右也就是说它跟大安区其他的住宅比起来"},{"start":2545.78,"end":2563.167,"text":"它的屋齡也很難就是說你說它就是一個老舊那如果說又把這一個呢因為個案呢把它變成一個通案型的修法那以後其他的這些比如說內政部相關的這些條文跟修改無關的他們也會講說那我們是不是也要能夠放在裡面我也要有這個改建必要"},{"start":2563.627,"end":2581.523,"text":"那这个1234款是不是要出现这个第五款我觉得这个对后续的这个法律的稳定性可能并不是那么的适当那所以呢待会看这个国防部是不是针对这个个案有一些相对应的意见那我们再来看说这个通案性的修法是否有必要以上说明"},{"start":2585.646,"end":2604.131,"text":"我們現在請民眾黨 林玉君 林委員謝謝主席我想《眷改條例》當初的立法確實就是比較不周延導致有一些非國防部管理的眷村因為沒有被列入照冊反而就被排除整個眷改的權益"},{"start":2605.291,"end":2608.894,"text":"當然我們台灣民眾黨當然是支持政府落實照顧軍艦生活的公平還有一致性但是國防部和國安局也不應該互踢皮球政府應該要解決人民的問題而不是讓我們人民都整個都求數無門"},{"start":2620.763,"end":2623.365,"text":"我是想請問國防部就是前部長李潔有針對國安六村提報納入卷改的名冊行政院和國防部也曾經說過要補正整個程序還有監察院2018年有要求國防部要配合國安局的整個修法那國防部到現在到底是做了沒"},{"start":2640.416,"end":2663.485,"text":"还有目前捐改基金的裁员状况到底是如何有完整的财务影响评估报告与捐出改建的进度吗我想国安部似乎都没有提出整个完整的财务的影响的整个评估的报告还有一个就是最主要的就是捐改的条例和各县市的都跟的进度的进合问题到底是怎样所以想要了解一下"},{"start":2679.383,"end":2679.984,"text":"有嗎那先請國防部機關代表說明"},{"start":2699.011,"end":2720.729,"text":"主席各位委員先進我是國防部政戰局軍眷服務處副處長胡定明上校捐改條例自85年間適期期間國防部始終秉持照顧軍眷的一個立場那今天就針對捐改條例第三條條文修正的協商感謝各位委員對國防部推動老舊眷村改建的工作的關心與指導"},{"start":2721.71,"end":2739.2,"text":"那國防部針對剛剛所提的意見首先有三點上代克服的因素分數如何第一點就是針對條文中有改建之必要一詞認定基準不明確恐衍生爭議的部分委員提案修正條文中增加且有改建之必要 等為認定"},{"start":2740.721,"end":2752.493,"text":"國軍老舊捐贈的要件為有改建之必要因屬不確定的法律概念其認定基準為何即可能因基準差異或個人主觀的認定衍生爭議"},{"start":2754.455,"end":2770.691,"text":"本治委員修法您納入改建之慈仁八村目前屋齡為36年相較同行行政區屋齡如將慈仁八村認定為老舊而有改建之必要是否符合社會通念或國民共識反而衍生其他社會的爭議"},{"start":2772.172,"end":2799.969,"text":"應有再行省佐的空間第二點就是增加倔改基金的財務負擔倔改基金截至114年的11月底子累積短處達1050億餘元且尚有不適用營地的周轉金529億餘元待歸還國庫當本次修法通過後慈仁八村千萬榮營區尚需增加基金4億餘元會有可能使其他原本不符"},{"start":2801.443,"end":2823.633,"text":"享有建改條例的對象 因比較政策待遇的差異產生相對的剝奪效應 進而引發經由修法以爭取權益的情形以台北市劉凡散戶等512戶不辦理改建眷村堂營每戶1500元的房屋建造成本估算基金上需支應這個30億餘萬元恐無力的負擔"},{"start":2826.653,"end":2846.368,"text":"第三 在憲法之平等的原則為合法之平等憲法的平等原則並非賦予人民要求行政機關重複錯誤的權利本部雖有作業疏失勿將不符法定要建之軍眷住宅納入改建範圍維持人八村能無從依此要求比照辦理"},{"start":2847.648,"end":2873.868,"text":"補充我剛剛所提的國安六村的這個修正的部分我在110年10月21日有呈報行政院修正這個第三條第五條以及第五條之一等條文草案逐條審查那目前111年的2月20日審訊是完成院會程序修正法院即可送這個立法院審議那在第11屆的第一會期"},{"start":2877.095,"end":2901.435,"text":"針對這個法案的部分於113年6月26日的第29次全體委員會併案審議後決議令擇期繼續審查結語在此衷心感謝委員提案照顧眷婦之美意為本案卻有上述困難待客服解決建議能維持現行條文為宜以上報告敬請各位先進參考指教謝謝"},{"start":2911.613,"end":2938.319,"text":"那他們還要在第二階段我想有些問題還是就教一下因為在我們歷次協商當中那基本上我們先把問題的範圍把它釐定清楚那首先我覺得剛剛也謝謝沈委員還有國防部你們也承認你們認為說之前是有把所謂的慈恩八村納進納進這個台北市萬隆林區的改建"},{"start":2939.139,"end":2959.893,"text":"基地嘛那也因此产生了后面的所谓的保留持人八村眷户签购跟规划都列入计算这是本来是在国防部的一个计划当中但你用所谓的这叫行政疏失为由那就牵涉到第一件事情大家知道政府也是有信赖保护原则的适用的"},{"start":2960.453,"end":2978.185,"text":"那這個所謂是行政疏失還是你當時的認定的標準跟後來認定標準產生變異這個我不做判斷可是基本上第一個要確定的東西就是既然國防部過去曾經有這個規劃那你慈恩巴春也有這個需求"},{"start":2978.985,"end":2994.962,"text":"那接下来是什么呢接下来说你们讲到说修法里面有改建的必要这一次叫做不确定的法律概念会形成争议那我就要想请教就以这一次本席的修法版本来说除了慈仁八村这50户"},{"start":2995.953,"end":3024.653,"text":"会被你回到你的原计划该做的这个部分以外有哪一些具体的因为它是讲这个公布施行后的这个前的新建完成军建宅然后才有第二个条件叫有改建的必要所以它是有划一个时间限制它不是一个漫无时间限制的一个所谓的开放式的条文那所以因此那国防部就告诉我那有哪些就是在这个本法施行"},{"start":3026.192,"end":3045.034,"text":"前興建完成的軍卷會有10人8吋一樣的情形所以你要確定問題的範圍就我在過去跟國防部協調過程當中似乎國防部也沒跟我講說有其他還有其他10人8吋以外的卷設有這個情況的適用如果沒有的話這個修法有什麼比較不確定呢"},{"start":3046.232,"end":3070.332,"text":"還是過去國防部跟我溝通你們的資訊給我也是錯的你們自己也告訴我說對啦 這個就是只有影響慈恩八村這50戶啊可是今天你的理由跟我講說因為你不確定該有別的軍艦戶改建會受到影響那告訴我是哪些嘛對不對 告訴我是哪些啊那再來你那邊舉一個例子叫台北市流反散戶512戶不辦改建眷村為例你說要多31億"},{"start":3072.096,"end":3091.117,"text":"可是你前面就自己講這還得要經由修法來去爭取權益換言之也不在本版的法律的修正的範圍之內該不該做我沒有意見我們可以另外詳細討論就還有其他的眷色有沒有相同的問題需要解決我們可以討論但是今天的修法版本我覺得要確定範圍嘛"},{"start":3092.719,"end":3118.91,"text":"那国防部告诉我按照这个法律版本跟我过去跟国防部沟通的结果到底有十人八村五十户以外这五十户还是你们曾经列进去连省纪部都叫你们要去处理然后免得你今天这个所谓眷管户这个保留户号余户长期空置影响屋况省纪部都这样讲了所以在沟通的过程当中我抱歉我得到的讯息是"},{"start":3120.03,"end":3148.039,"text":"這個部分其實是把這一個遺留的問題收尾那當然我也必須講這個卷改這個問題不同委員有不同版本有的處理問題是比較大範圍比較多可是比較大比較多的範圍是牽涉到比如說不同單位間國安會 國安局還是國防部之間但這個就是國防部本身的問題而已它沒有牽涉到其他的地方所以因此今天我們先解決我的出發點是先解決能解決的問題"},{"start":3149.434,"end":3154.77,"text":"那这能解决问题透过这次修法把该不要让十人八村这些眷户"},{"start":3155.865,"end":3178.041,"text":"本來被你規劃進去他現在在這個地方原地徘徊不但他原地徘徊他得不到他的權益同時造成你今天眷改保留戶長期空置的去化問題那你把這問題解決那至於其他問題要不要解決我們都還可以再來討論還有一些修法上很多的討論可以繼續進行可是不要說因為因為還有很多修法問題要討論所以這個已經是相對單純的問題我們講的就不要討論了"},{"start":3182.284,"end":3207.343,"text":"我覺得這邏輯上本席覺得可能要再商榷一下以上 謝謝好 那我們現在請陳俊宇委員發言 謝謝好 謝謝主席那剛剛聽了我們羅委員還有我們其他委員的這個針對四人八村的這個部分勸改的部分的意見其實"},{"start":3209.572,"end":3231.233,"text":"說實在這確實是一個問題確實是一個問題可是我們要回溯到之前回溯到之前在85年到99年之間有27處的眷村提出要改建當時好像有26村已經在這個期間已經改善完成了"},{"start":3233.672,"end":3250.832,"text":"我們現在在討論的慈仁八村它可能在行政程序上時間上沒有辦法掌握所以導致後來它沒有能夠完成如果嚴格來講這也算是歷史工業的一個問題可是"},{"start":3253.226,"end":3275.852,"text":"我是認為說我們羅委員他提出的他這個要改建的部分我覺得利益良善那他要照顧我們所有軍眷的美意我相信大家是可以肯定但是如果用修法的方式來做這個案子的檢討跟處理的話我覺得比較不妥適"},{"start":3277.655,"end":3296.478,"text":"遷移法動全身那可能也會導致其他這個經費龐大的這個國防部要去支出的問題甚至也會導致這個骨牌效應那是不是說針對我們這個慈恩八村的部分他到底"},{"start":3297.395,"end":3326.125,"text":"是我們行政程序的瑕疵或是其他人為因素的問題還是說因為在當時的情況之下沒有辦法及時來做改建的部分公安部應該要有一套比較完善的一個說法那我在此我想我建議是不是 羅委員我們針對這個部分不要去把那個時間把它拿掉因為時間69年的這個時間點如果拿掉的話可能會導致其他這些眷村"},{"start":3327.567,"end":3347.645,"text":"這個相應的要求國防部也要去提出這個改建那當時已經提出這個改建的一個這個時間序的話是不是一樣照這個時間序走那我個人的認為是希望國防部針對職人八村的部分能夠提出一個這個完善的一個專案這個研擬的報告"},{"start":3351.248,"end":3372.062,"text":"針對慈恩八村看要怎麼解決是不是可以由我們相關單位對於這個案子提出一個比較詳細的說明一樣來解決這個問題不要去把那個時間改掉刪掉甚至把那個增加那個改建之必要的文字的話"},{"start":3373.151,"end":3396.103,"text":"可能會怕未來可能寒蟬效應導致國防部龐大的這些改建經費現在我們的這個基金的部分我們的眷改基金的部分已經是負債了那如果再增加這個的話恐怕會對國防部來講會更加的有沉重的壓力那這部分是請我們國防部等一下再做簡單的說明一下"},{"start":3399.967,"end":3402.798,"text":"接下來我們請民眾黨 我們請林益君委員"},{"start":3404.291,"end":3410.214,"text":"謝謝主席我想剛才大家這樣討論之後我覺得國防部還是應該要積極來面對這個十人八村的這整個問題還想說要看要怎麼樣去解決這樣這整個問題但是我們民眾黨黨團當然比較注重的就是財政紀律還有居住正義這一個部分所以我想這個都是要考量在裡面然後要看大家怎麼樣溝通讓這個事情能夠進展的順利這樣"},{"start":3436.991,"end":3459.147,"text":"好 羅委員我覺得其實剛剛溝通我覺得還是有共識點就大家基本上也認為慈恩八尊問題要解決但我也跟各位委員報告這個我們協調了快兩年的時間如果不是說因為不用修法找不到解決的辦法的話今天國防部也遲遲沒拿出辦法來解決所以我今天也只好"},{"start":3459.847,"end":3489.31,"text":"以修法的方式来解决问题那当然委员们concern问题我就要问国防部因为至少在跟我协调过程当中你们给我的讯息是这个修法的版本出去之后就是那50户啊 十人八成那你现在跟我讲说不止那你就要告诉我不止还有哪些因为期限为什么要把它明确化期限明确化就是要用于是我可以明确化说知道到底影响范围多大那如果我没有期限的话当然影响范围就不可期不确定嘛"},{"start":3489.85,"end":3518.793,"text":"它既然有一個期限在那個地方的話所以國防部待會兒跟我回答一下好不好就是說除了說慈恩八村以外到底還有哪些是在這個所謂的修法這個版本之下會適用的然後它影響經費的層面有多廣那這個可能國防部還是要給大家一個說明那不要跟我講說這個法律修了以後會有別的人也要想要修法來去變成是類似一個相應的適用"},{"start":3519.614,"end":3543.912,"text":"别的眷村如果有要修法他就要看他的正当性他有没有像慈恩八村一样的正当性慈恩八村刚刚他也讲是国防部坦白讲历史工业的一部分我觉得不能够去让慈恩八村的住户即便他不多50户而已可是不应该让他去承担这历史工业政府是有责任多少年下你没解决他的问题他今天才过来"},{"start":3544.992,"end":3565.567,"text":"希望我能解決那也抱歉我是擔案區的立委那我當然有一份責任把我的選民受到不公平的待遇要能夠加以解決如果國防部能解決問題當然就沒有今天修法問題可是顯然這麼多年下來對不對國防部並沒有拿出所謂修法以外的解決方案那最後還是特定的問題"},{"start":3567.045,"end":3590.524,"text":"那你告訴我按照這個版本之外十人八村五十戶以外到底還有哪些眷村是有一樣的情形會被含設在裡面需要我們的眷改基金來挹注的不要跟我講說還要再修法就可能有些批的 別的但坦白那叫多餘的話因為本來你修法有新的一個所謂授意或是一個補償或是"},{"start":3592.686,"end":3600.744,"text":"一個補正的一個範圍那是必然的事情但是我只要跟你講這個版本下到底持人8吋以外還有哪些是適用的以上 謝謝"},{"start":3603.376,"end":3605.277,"text":"就我們剛剛各黨團委員代表發言以後在這裡也提出幾個問題因為其實這個在過程當中我們每次在審基金的時候國防部都跟我們說我們的財務狀況已經達到水平並沒有告訴我們說這個是會缺錢"},{"start":3625.051,"end":3628.494,"text":"而且你現在甚至有些出租的部分還是用那種成本價在出租所以跟我們說你現在提出說這個基金會有短促的部分或者會有很多錢周轉金不足我覺得這個理由在我們在審基金的時候是矛盾背道而馳的這是第一點第二個捲改條例落日以後因為"},{"start":3651.835,"end":3663.001,"text":"剛剛國防部也特別提到我們當時為什麼要有眷改條例主要就是要照顧我們所有的軍眷因為我們體恤國軍的辛勞所以我們對於這樣的一個老舊眷村的一個改善或者我們在因為這個已經都是末端比較難處理的今天如果說這一些可以有一個具體的一個處理做我相信這個跟憲法公不公平不要老是拿這個出來講"},{"start":3680.529,"end":3684.052,"text":"而是應該要怎麼樣落實照顧我們所有的軍眷那有沒有一個更好的方式來解決這樣的問題剛剛提到眷改條例如果落日以後我們現在是硬撐一直在拖延時間如果說他落日以後那這些軍眷要怎麼辦這是第一點第二個當初幫他們蓋的房子在景美萬隆營區其實50戶空在那裡已經空幾年了"},{"start":3708.691,"end":3711.955,"text":"那些房子一直大概擺在那裡也會損害如果說這一次可以透過這樣的一個解決的方案他們這50戶就可以解決因為房子早就幫他蓋好在那裡了他們要遷過去的遷過去如果沒有其實他的現金補償也是低的那是按照以前的年限算的根本不像現在提出來的這樣子的一個說法"},{"start":3733.135,"end":3736.737,"text":"所以在很多次的協調的過程當中為什麼國防部都沒有提出這些的問題那現在又有這些尤其看起來不是很具體的而且好像似是而非所以等一下國防部也一併說明好不好謝謝 請國防部說明"},{"start":3763.416,"end":3791.782,"text":"主席委員首先針對如果是本條例確實就是只有慈仁八村他這個會受到一個影響那第二點針對這個跟基金背道而馳的部分其實眷改基金確實就是他是負債那我們平常現有的這個現金是透過在我們土地活化什麼還是巡管維護還有這個拆違件等等還是確實有現金支應的必要但是整個資產"},{"start":3793.722,"end":3819.1,"text":"確實是負債的那針對像如果不辦理改建圈村或是現在這個500多戶的部分最後的部分只能依照我軍券業務處理做為要點就是原券戶他如果亡戶之後由配偶來繼續住那到二代子女之後成年我們券社還是要典還回來這是軍券業務處理要點賦予他的一個權益以上說明"},{"start":3825.236,"end":3850.164,"text":"主席各位委員好我先就這個有關那個剛剛講的就是為什麼有些他已經完成改建的不法平等這個部分就判決部分來講以慈恩八村來講85年之後85年之後在99年的時候那時候國防部有收到一個檢舉就是說就慈恩八村的這個他這個改建案呢他有不法的嫌疑就是是不是有"},{"start":3851.064,"end":3868.714,"text":"有現役的這個公務員或軍人他有圖利的嫌疑所以才開始偵辦所以那時候國防部101年的時候才處分因為依照慈恩八村他是78年興建的他不符合眷改條例必須要在就是69年以前完成的所以這個"},{"start":3870.074,"end":3886.741,"text":"這個做成這樣處分經過法院的一個判決也確定了那當然18村有提到說也有相較一樣是69年以後興建的房子為什麼他們都可以完成改建以當時的這些案子來看的話這些眷戶他其實在當時他雖然"},{"start":3888.521,"end":3909.135,"text":"就是國防部他就是在作業疏失上把他納進去可是他們都已經完成簽件了他已經簽到新的房子或者是在原地重建這些眷舍他已經居住他已經沒有原來的房子住可是慈仁八村不一樣慈仁八村跟這些眷戶不太一樣的是他還在慈仁八村住他還沒有搬到萬隆"},{"start":3909.875,"end":3935.239,"text":"他只有完成所謂的這個說明會這些可是法院認為這是事情行為所以他不能比照言語說也要按照說要完成最後的改建程序這是在信賴保護上的一個適用那第二個就是我們一開始有提到說有改建的必要他是不是一個不確定的法律概念是的因為如果從改建的概念從建築法的概念他是指你原地的建築物"},{"start":3936.44,"end":3953.723,"text":"拆掉一部分原地重建你不可以超過原來的高度那大法官解釋也有講到說房子的改建他說第一個你要看除了要看這個房子的狀況第二個你要看他是不是可以配合整個都市的這個狀況更新狀況以七仁八村來講他位處在所謂的這個靈光站旁邊的所謂的這個"},{"start":3961.545,"end":3986.396,"text":"復陽生態公園旁邊從整個環境的外觀來看他其實跟旁邊的環境其實是沒有違和感那在相較以慈恩八村附近的公寓來看他的屋況從外觀來看是ok的他並沒有這樣的老舊所以我們剛剛講說有沒有改建的必要這樣以慈恩八村來看的話對他可能符合之後委員提案放寬的所謂的"},{"start":3987.516,"end":4015.375,"text":"85年2月以前可是他有沒有改建的必要可能還要再實際審査第一個要看他現在房屋的狀況他一直看起來是被維持很好的從外觀來看因為我不是住裡面第二個是他整個在整個富陽生態公園他是一個被保留的一個所謂的以前居民留下來的一個生態區他就剛好貼在他旁邊在整個台北市的規劃裡面他有沒有被改建有沒有要配合去改這是也是一個問題以上說明"},{"start":4022.035,"end":4046.403,"text":"請沈 沈博洋委員好因為剛剛俊宇委員我其實講得蠻好的就是說大家都知道說這個因為是當時的一個違法認定的方式所以這個問題必須要被解決這個我覺得大家是應該是沒什麼問題那但是就是我覺得還是兩件事第一件事情就是因為畢竟它是當時違法的認定因為它就是不符合圈改條例"},{"start":4047.043,"end":4063.215,"text":"所以他不符合他被納進去那我們現在要等於是就地把當時錯誤的認定就地合法我覺得這還是我疑義就是法律的穩定性的問題我們比較不應該做這個事而且第二個我反而比較擔心的就是因為我也知道這個羅委員就是在大安區"},{"start":4064.417,"end":4078.977,"text":"所以這也是一個重要的澄清案但因為你現在這樣修就是說公佈實行前所以它的時間可以納進去後面你不是寫且有改建之必要因為改建之必要這個認定可能它又是回到主管機關"},{"start":4079.938,"end":4095.155,"text":"那回到主管機關就像剛剛講的如果主管機關認定在這邊沒有認為改建必要的話那可能還不一定會納進去所以我反而是擔心這一點就是說我們大家都覺得說這個問題因為它法院現在也判了當時因為違法認定所以出現一個問題要解決但我有怕說"},{"start":4096.056,"end":4112.403,"text":"如果這個樣子的話他到時候可能也沒有辦法持續把這個問題搞定那是不是就是剛剛將軍委員提議的就是說國防部是不是能夠有什麼樣的方法或者說一個報告等等之類的就是或許等一下國防部可以再來說明一下這兩點意見好 羅委員我覺得謝謝國防部剛剛的說明我覺得問題就開始明確化那當然我覺得剛剛那個沈委員講的也有他的道理"},{"start":4125.734,"end":4152.537,"text":"可是我們今天回到我們的修法其實它是兩個條件要同時存在一個是本條例公佈施行前興建完成之軍艦駐載那它就有一個日期的限制那第二個且有改建之必要這兩項加進去那剛剛國防部的第一個代表上去回答就很明確告訴大家按照這一個條文的版本就只有磁輪8吋這50戶適用所以今天的討論其他我覺得是不必了這50戶"},{"start":4154.52,"end":4177.058,"text":"那第二个我要讲什么第二个我要讲的是说事实上你会发现说当然说过去他有一个疏失刚刚也提到嘛有处分可是大家也知道基本上你处分的是国防部内的疏失人员但是你不能让这个责任变成是十人八村这些住户要承担这么久这是第二个问题"},{"start":4177.839,"end":4204.031,"text":"第三個問題是什麼其實你有沒有發現一件事情如果放棄掉今天很多我們講說有一些我們自己設計的條條框框18歲的訴求有沒有正當性它有正當性剛剛我們大家已經有一個初步共識那國防部能不能解決這個問題國防部是能解決這個問題這個法律條文下去才能解決這個問題那更重要的是解決這個問題之後你也發現目前就有一個很荒謬的現象其實是蓋好了"},{"start":4205.185,"end":4215.826,"text":"那50戶是蓋好放在那個地方然後就長期讓他那邊閒置然後那邊餵蚊子然後讓他屋礦越來越壞你還有維修保護費在那個地方"},{"start":4216.874,"end":4243.556,"text":"我这难怪省纪部都有意见我觉得你国家财产你没有你都已经弄好了然后你有疏失的是国防部又不是十人八村的这些民众有疏失那你为什么不让他进去今天国防部如果你能够把这历史共悦你能够之前用非修法方式解决今天就不会有这个修法案在里面但是很抱歉也确实我们研究过他要走到这一步原因是因为国防部都没做嘛"},{"start":4244.52,"end":4263.767,"text":"那你只能走到這一步那回頭還是一件事情我覺得其他什麼有沒有改建必要會不會含設更多的軍艦這個話題我就結束因為你們剛剛第一位代表說沒有只有慈倫八村五十戶然後再講到說其他的什麼台北市流反散戶這些其他可能衍生他可能衍生都還要經過一個關卡要再修法"},{"start":4264.932,"end":4279.765,"text":"所以也不應該放在這個條文裡面去討論那既然慈仁八尊是要解決修法就是一個解決而這個修法是一個非常限縮性的修法它也沒有延伸到其他的所謂的君宅的一些眷色的類別的時候本席認為就是說"},{"start":4281.266,"end":4302.643,"text":"我可以有一個提案主張今天大家如果真的沒有共識我們就保留保留的話我們hold一下請國防部來跟我報告你有修法以外的方式來解決這個問題因為抱歉我要的也不是修法不是嗎我要的是解決這些眷戶常年在那邊得不到公平對待的問題"},{"start":4304.557,"end":4327.027,"text":"我也要解決的是今天明明蓋好50戶空在那邊餵蚊子的問題這兩個問題都解決掉你能夠不修法解決這兩個問題今天就沒有這個修法的討論我們可以等一下我可以先不送出去我們可以先把它放一下但是如果國防部你真的拿不出辦法那我也只能用修法方式解決我到目前為止認為我的出發點合情合理"},{"start":4327.887,"end":4351.204,"text":"合情合理那我也希望國防部能夠多一點柔軟的身段那我也給一點時間我們今天保留出去也還沒有進到二讀三讀那請國防部你再來跟我溝通你們既然也認為慈仁八村問題要解決那你告訴我你怎麼解決那就不用走到修法這條路人人都只覺得不曉得慈仁八村問題非得修法那我們就修法就是修一條而且你們也講只限於慈仁八村這50戶以上 謝謝陳俊宇委員"},{"start":4357.56,"end":4386.1,"text":"好 謝謝主席我有幾個問題我想請教一下國防部因為我這樣聽下來我覺得有一點這個滿奇怪的地方就剛剛羅委員跟我們那個召委都講到萬隆這個營區改建的部分已經完成了那為什麼不能夠讓他們入住這是第一個問題那第二個問題就是說我還是我還是主張就是盡量盡可能就不要去動到修法因為"},{"start":4387.741,"end":4408.924,"text":"這個修法下去的話未來如果說其他的這個一些民眾他對於案件他個人的這個案件如果有產生疑慮的話他可能都會找立委就是看能不能朝向這個修法的方式來解決那這個可能會沒完沒了而且會衍生很多不必要的問題"},{"start":4412.123,"end":4425.875,"text":"其實就像禁法補助禁法補助現在變成一般的民眾也在問為什麼原住民的這個林地他們可以申請這個補助一般的民眾就沒辦法"},{"start":4427.196,"end":4455.031,"text":"我覺得這會產生很多矛盾點我想還是針對這個問題為什麼我們已經改建好的萬隆營區的部分不能讓我們十人八村的這些住戶直接搬過去這第一個問題第二個問題就是請我們國安部是不是可以提出一個專案解決這個問題的一個辦法好不好 以上兩個問題"},{"start":4460.177,"end":4461.739,"text":"在國防部說明之前我再詢問一下因為剛剛蘇研處講說法是錯的因為我們這個土地如果收回以後它就是收歸國有它不會再改建沒有改建的問題"},{"start":4475.157,"end":4481.4,"text":"他現在如果他搬出去他就是搬到原來在景美那個萬隆營區已經幫他蓋好50戶空在那裡好幾年的那50戶因為這些軍眷相信其實他們的資格都符合所以當時我們也幫他蓋了只是因為他當眷改條例裡面定的年限就是69年那那此人此人"},{"start":4500.45,"end":4504.191,"text":"八村這個是因為他78年蓋好所以其實後來被糾正的原因或者進入司法程序也是因為這個原因可是事實上那些人是必須要被照顧的那是我們國防部自己在行政上面自己的疏失跟慈恩八村的這些眷戶其實沒有關係所以如果說他們這些50戶你都已經幫他蓋好了"},{"start":4526.115,"end":4528.576,"text":"審計單位也希望說可以解決這樣的問題那大概是用什麼方法去解決而已你要不要修法或者你有什麼更好的方法國防部必須要提出來不然你落日條款剛剛你們沒有回答這個問題如果他落日以後我們要怎麼樣照顧這50戶你們必須要有做法"},{"start":4546.707,"end":4553.757,"text":"你明明房子空在那裡你也不給他住他們搬出去以後他不能在原來的房子改建說又要回來那裡住不是所以剛剛的說法是錯誤的就這個部分我想等一下國防部也一併的說明清楚好不好"},{"start":4564.466,"end":4587.877,"text":"主席委員好我是熱戰局副局長首先剛剛針對陳委員所說的萬農那邊都已經蓋好了又保留了50戶那為什麼慈恩八村的不能做遷入那當初委員那邊也知道我們總共當初在69年以後所呈現慈智貝的村子大概27村其中26村他剛剛我們法規處的處長也報告過了這是因為"},{"start":4592.318,"end":4611.294,"text":"他本身就在那個那個所有我們26村他相關的產權都已經完成法律的程序法律程序就是法院他那時候的認定是我們就不能我們就不能違反信賴保護原則必須要"},{"start":4612.435,"end":4639.188,"text":"慈仁八村市因為他還沒完成這些程序當初99年被檢舉之後我們也必須要納案來做一個處理後來述出行政訴訟判決我們必須要按照眷改條例來做一個執行那後續一直有相關的一些大概眷戶的相關一個陳情債那我們這50戶我們也不敢初步來講我們也不敢做其他的運用債其他運用債說還保留在那裡"},{"start":4641.31,"end":4661.365,"text":"這第二點的就是說有關於提出狀案我想這一部分後續後續我這邊也跟委員做報告我們就回去我們再做一個相關的研議看看看是不是還有相關可以釋出的一個方式包含剛剛主席所講的落實條款那這些落實條款之後"},{"start":4662.766,"end":4672.342,"text":"以及有政策以及未來照顧眷戶的這些權益上面我們應該怎麼做我們再提出來這邊初步的做一個說明報告"},{"start":4693.56,"end":4721.548,"text":"跟羅委員跟趙偉跟其他各位委員因為我也到任第四個禮拜那這個案子我也聽過幾次比起我第一次聽到報告後來發覺越來越複雜這個他有他的歷史那麼怎麼剛才羅委員您的這個您的這個大量說願意再給我們一點時間"},{"start":4723.396,"end":4735.566,"text":"那因為我剛到任這個問題我還沒有深入坦白講那秉承剛才其他委員的善意以及各位委員共通的一個共識有一個重要的點就是這裡面有歷史工業要處理但鮑羅委員這不是法"},{"start":4744.437,"end":4767.294,"text":"在法上面因為我們有法院的判決必須遵守這個我們不能違背也請您諒解所以我們可能要用另外一個角度來處理這個事情但是感謝您給我們點時間那我會來督導各位同仁來處理這個案件以上各位委員已經照顧報告"},{"start":4770.246,"end":4785.02,"text":"我的建議是就是反正如果這邊暫時沒有共識先保留但請國防部來跟我們好好來協商一下好不好 後續處理如果真的你們拿得出可以解決這個問題的方式的話這版本就也不一定要送到二讀三讀"},{"start":4786.367,"end":4805.158,"text":"所以我還是就我們很歡迎國防部我們再來協商因為今天我覺得滿好的討論至少大家有共識你不能把責任歸咎在十人八村這些眷戶身上再怎麼行政疏失也是國防部的疏失你連房子都蓋了這才是個問題所以我覺得我的建議是這樣 以上"},{"start":4807.452,"end":4834.511,"text":"好那其他委員跟國防部那我們本日協商的過程公開而且發言內容均予以記錄經各黨團代表發言討論仍無法取得共識所以本案保留後續依立法院職權行使法第12章相關規定辦理我們今天今天謝謝各黨團代表以及機關的官員本日協商會議到此結束謝謝 散會"}]}},{"id":"166743","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166743","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb152b04628f4b55909b1ecef7239bdfb16c47a344ae2d12b24a5d303fbad1cac0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:44:33 - 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謝謝主席 那先我想先說好了 主席 我就先不請相關部會主席今天排這個案子其實主要是主席想要談自己想要修的這個政務人員基準法草案 還有政務人員法草案可是我想要提出一個問題太好了 吳宗憲委員你到場了我記得吳宗憲委員也有提案可是我在今天的排案當中一 我沒有看到吳委員的提案 我也不知道為什麼"},{"start":45.306,"end":60.061,"text":"再來如果我們看現在排在委員會裡面的羅志強等人還有翁小玲等人的相關法案我必須要說它是一個大雜匯雜到其實有非常多前後矛盾的地方可能連兩位委員的辦公室的助理都沒有發現還是說"},{"start":61.903,"end":76.474,"text":"刻意的要把它變成一個完全沒有章法完全沒有辦法有行政配套也完全沒有辦法讓相關機關好好執行的大雜匯的法案導致如果這個法在在野黨強力表決通過之下"},{"start":77.435,"end":99.164,"text":"那之後所有現在坐在這邊的行政機關都會非常的頭痛所以我今天一大早來看了所有相關部會的報告我也非常的納悶而且相關部會其實都已經指出今天在委員會裡面想要討論這兩個法案大雜燴到什麼程度呢一看起來這個法案來自於非常多現行的很多法案包含第一個"},{"start":99.784,"end":127.103,"text":"公務人員行政中立法第二個公務員服務法第三個公職人員選舉罷免法甚至我們還有相關的請假規則啊選罷法相關的事情可是看起來翁委員或者是羅志強委員就看到影子就開槍他覺得只要跟公務人員有關跟政務人員有關跟他們想要攻擊的特定政務人員有關他們就拿起來放在相關的法令裡頭所以我要說我感到非常非常的遺憾"},{"start":128.208,"end":142.496,"text":"自詡為法律專家法律學者教授的主席竟然安排像這樣的法案甚至自己也提了相關的法案喔我想身為司法法治的委員我在這邊快要一年了我要說每一個主題大家都可以花力氣討論"},{"start":143.476,"end":161.232,"text":"每一個在意的個案也有機會變成通案的考量來讓所有的國人對所有的政務人員更有信心而且大家不要忘記了政務人員不是只有來自中央政府有政務人員地方縣市首長一旦新上任之後他也有非常多政務人員需要派任"},{"start":161.892,"end":183.544,"text":"所以你以為你可以攻擊到誰你以為你可以打擊到誰但不要忘記了這個法一旦施行他所適用的不是只有中央政府機關他還有地方政府機關喔所以我還是要再一次嚴正的表達我的遺憾我真的不知道自詡為法學教授的主席為什麼要拼湊出一個大雜燴荒謬無旦"},{"start":185.945,"end":207.95,"text":"荒謬至極而且我認為所有的行政機關再次強調不是只有中央所有地方政府也會非常難以實施我等一下會根據這個部分再跟相關部會討論但是在開始這個專題報告的質詢之前我要先提出這個嚴正的抗議我要拜託主席拜託召委不要浪費自己召委排案的機會非常非常的可惜"},{"start":208.703,"end":225.85,"text":"那我想我還是要針對無差別攻擊事件喔做出一些我個人的討論第一個我想要相關的事者至上撫慰的心情我要說哀悼謝謝我罵人罵得太生氣了好"},{"start":227.25,"end":249.783,"text":"我真的看到這個主題我真的看到這個主題非常的排暗的部分好所有關於這些事情我想國人都希望不要再發生但是我要講的是主席很希望談所謂的量刑這件事情我知道相關的輿論跟新聞也有很多的國人在關心可是我們光就今天這個個案來看因為這個人他現在已經死亡了"},{"start":250.363,"end":261.751,"text":"所以那他已經死了所以我想相關量刑很難討論可是大家可能接下來會關心的是那未來假設還有相關無差別攻擊事件我們會怎麼討論量刑那這個部分是不是可以請相關機關法務部來討論一下好不好來"},{"start":272.677,"end":291.148,"text":"好部長您辛苦了部長我如果沒有記錯的話在相關事件之後由政委已經召開跨部會的會議那我想法務部應該也參與其中那關於現在國人關心量刑的部分不知道法務部這邊有什麼看法跟主張關於這個無差別社會攻擊我們就聽一聽部長這邊的看法"},{"start":293.009,"end":311.563,"text":"這個的確是我們在第一時間我們就成立的專案小組那另外我們也非常就是注意會不會有擴散的一個效果所以我們除了台高檢有組那個一個獨島小組各地檢有那個一個應變的一個小組加強查緝那目前我們是採的態度就是"},{"start":313.664,"end":328.534,"text":"即時的發現機器查辦快速的一個偵辦那目前我們已經起訴了已經有5件了那另外已經有羈押了13人了據保9件那有相關的案件有37件被告有35名"},{"start":329.835,"end":351.495,"text":"那這部分我們是有依據就是我們為了預防這種的一個案件我們有督導那個調查局這部分要跟那個警政署來做一個加強這個行收另外我們網路的巡邏的一個機制避免這個產生魔網的一個效應那另外這部分檢查這部分我剛才已經報告過了"},{"start":353.757,"end":381.093,"text":"那這個就求刑的這部分這的確要具體的一個求刑這個是惡性犯罪嚴重違反社會治安的案件我們會依照相關的一個我們頒布的一些行政法規包括那個提示檢查運用求刑的應行注意事項檢查機關辦理刑事訴訟案件應行注意事項以及檢查機關辦理重大刑案的注意事項來具體來求重刑我們非常擔心壓制這種的這些的行為"},{"start":381.733,"end":408.418,"text":"是 而且包含還有模仿犯的部分剛剛法務部長這邊也提到了所以我想國人在關心的部分法務部應該已經注意到了那我們就期待你們除了收集社會輿情之外也在相關合理的法規範當中我們讓這些模仿犯也好或者是我們都希望後續不要再發生相關案件來 謝謝法務部接下來有請內政部應該是民政司吧我們要來談一下關於小局書的問題來 謝謝"},{"start":411.078,"end":432.672,"text":"在第一時間我們看到劉部長他已經說未來在小局處的內容會進行改版就是增加對於暴力的襲擊事件或是關於恐怖攻擊事件的指引必須要予以肯定那我這個部分非常感謝內政部做出非常快速跟及時的回應那同時我們要提醒其實在相關的新聞事件當中我們看到例如說像那個地下街的相關咖啡店"},{"start":433.132,"end":455.763,"text":"他們就第一時間把門拉下來但是我想應該是這個個別的工作人員他有意識到這件事情他可能本來就有這個嘗試有這個能力做出這個應變但是不是其他的公共區域的商家店家或者是一般我們在公共場域當中的路人去逛街的人去在外面公共場域的人他們也有這個意識那我想後續小局處在改版的部分你們是不是也會再增加這個部分"},{"start":456.343,"end":465.958,"text":"因為小局書的整個製作內容是屬於權動署的業務是那這個部分我們會幫忙跟權動署做反映好OK可是所以不跟你們內政部有關"},{"start":466.881,"end":489.993,"text":"內政部當然有做一些協助的部分包括發放然後還有宣講的部分那就拜託如果在我們還來不及改版內容之前因為我知道內政部即將開啟全台灣的巡迴講座對嗎好關於這個小局數的部分那是不是就拜託內政部在相關的活動現場做講座的時候也把這個部分先放進來然後後續內容改版的部分我們也會再持續追蹤好嗎我們納入演繹"},{"start":491.294,"end":497.158,"text":"好 謝謝 那接下來看一下警政署 來 警政署辛苦了 警政署有來嗎有喔 好 謝謝"},{"start":502.782,"end":526.952,"text":"你就邊走我邊說好了我們節省時間警政署的部分我想其實國人都會關心關於警察的設備尤其第一時間有很多人在說提高見警率尤其是今天開始今天下午開始很多年輕人可能不只年輕人很多人都要到跨年的現場全台灣有30幾場相關的跨年活動對嗎你們這邊警力部署的狀況可不可以跟大家報告一下目前現在就是"},{"start":530.274,"end":552.362,"text":"包括今天的跨年跟明天的元旦總共大概目前比較大型的有37場那這部分我們有各縣市的我們警察局包括我們的同仁還有會運用民力來協助協勤那相關的勤務的部署大概都在進行"},{"start":552.85,"end":568.362,"text":"那我們也有警政署也派高層去到各個檢查局去做督情那務必要把這個請問的進行能夠部署能夠嚴密來確保整個活動進行的一個安全好 我想這邊還是要想"},{"start":569.082,"end":582.077,"text":"先向所有在這兩天要出勤的不管是基層員警或是剛剛您說的高層的警官到現場去協助督導確保相關業務可以順利然後確保人民的安全我想這邊要先向所有的警務人員說聲謝謝因為"},{"start":583.899,"end":613.315,"text":"大家在歡樂大家在放假大家在跟家人朋友相聚的時候是你們先犧牲了假期你們先犧牲了自己的歡樂時間先為國人貢獻這個部分要先感謝喔但我想後續一定有很多人一定跟你們提到了關於警察人力的問題關於警察設備啊服裝啊相關的問題或者是見警率要提高之後那其他的警務工作有非常多平常就在進行的瑣碎警務工作後續的調配應該也會是你們很頭痛的部分可不可以關於這個部分簡單的回答一下"},{"start":613.775,"end":631.386,"text":"包委員這個部分我們有在從事件發生以後有陸陸續續在進行包括一個勤務現場的處置然後後來的人力的一個禁用還有包括裝備的一個採購這個部分我們也一直在做一個"},{"start":633.488,"end":656.006,"text":"在做整備上的一個檢討然後這個已經在推動好 這個相關的報告再麻煩給我們辦公室一份關於人力的部分關於設備或者是相關服勤的班次的規劃因為其實也有很多來自警界退休的人其實也提出一些建議提高見景率可能只能安定民心可是就與維持治安來說可能還會有不同的反效果但因為時間有限我們可以之後再來討論我們會再跟你們要相關報告好嗎是"},{"start":660.453,"end":663.121,"text":"好 謝謝接下來這個部分就先跳過好了"},{"start":664.922,"end":691.938,"text":"這個部分先跳過我想要講一個很重要的事情我們看到事發之後第一時間台北市新北市諮商跟臨床心理師公會他們就發了一個聯合安心指引希望讓民眾在看到相關的新聞如果要避免自己的焦慮到底可以做哪些事情除了少看新聞之外停止傳播安心生活指南還有彼此關心的安定力量這個部分是來自民間專業社團的協助我們要再次感謝所有心理師給國人的協助"},{"start":692.358,"end":719.368,"text":"接下來要看很可惜今天主席沒有請到他們就是衛福部其實第一時間政委開啟緊急會議的時候衛福部第一時間被邀請進到跨部會的專業會議當中衛福部在第一時間就說要提供給三次免費心理諮商不管國人你當時有沒有在現場只要你因為覺得你自己受到這個新聞事件的傳播所受到影響影響你自己的心理穩定性那"},{"start":720.481,"end":749.118,"text":"就開始提供三次的免費心理諮商可能很少人注意到這個事情然後就連我們的主席都沒有邀請到衛福部來很可惜但我想沒有關係我們還是要再次提醒國人而且這個是不限年紀不限有沒有在場都要持續提供三次的免費心理諮商這個部分我也想要藉由今天的質詢再次感謝衛福部雖然他們沒有來我們也呼籲國人如果你在相關事件感受到焦慮感受到不安都可以用這個衛福部的相關免費心理諮商好"},{"start":749.958,"end":753.652,"text":"那最後我想要談今天的法案這邊就要有請考試院辛苦了來謝謝祕書長"},{"start":758.6,"end":784.475,"text":"好 祕書長 我想要就三個問題跟您請教 我就一併問你再一併回答好嗎好來 我剛一剛開始我就已經破題了關於今天要修這個政務人員法 或者是羅自強委員提案的版本喔我都說它是一個大雜燴 怎麼說呢關於主管機關的部分 我記得之前行政院就有表示過 如果有政務人員相關的辦法 專法要修法的時候主管機關不應該是考試院喔 行政院有表達過相關立場 應該要是行政院所以"},{"start":784.935,"end":813.714,"text":"但是現在的版本還是寫考試院我等一下想要請您表達意見第二個在第八條當中有提到這個寫法我覺得非常的特殊他說政務人員提名或者是任命之前各個機關要辦理品德跟忠誠的查核必要的時候呢應恰請有關機關協助辦理涉及國安或重大利益的時候還要辦理特殊查核好我就先不要問查核的辦法我就問一個基本邏輯就好了秘書長你聽聽看"},{"start":814.975,"end":829.112,"text":"明年2026即將有地方大選各個縣市大家都卯足了勁很多候選人就開始努力了可是地方上的縣市首長要輪替了例如說台中的盧秀燕市長她即將要卸任了換新的市長假設現在"},{"start":830.453,"end":845.299,"text":"整個台中市已經確定提名的是何新淳我就以何新淳委員舉例假設何新淳委員他選上了當台中市長那他就要選任一批政務人員陪他進到市府裡面開始為台中市民服務 對嗎可是如果按照這個辦法 這個寫法"},{"start":846.539,"end":872.598,"text":"那難道何新淳委員 何新淳市長他未來要提名的政務人員的名單要交給盧秀燕市長去做審核嗎做品德查核嗎 做忠誠查核嗎這個很奇怪又或者是新北市侯友宜市長即將卸任現在只有提名確定的蘇巧慧委員他的政務人員的名單一樣要交給侯友宜嗎因為主管機關到時候就只剩下前任的縣市長了不是嗎"},{"start":873.319,"end":897.853,"text":"他更不可能交到中央來這就是我剛剛破題的時候所說的翁委員或是羅委員在提案的時候完全沒有意識到他們可能本來只想針對特地人員特定案件但他完全沒有想到相關的配套或是當中央跟地方各自分工各自有業務要執行的時候就會遇到了困難所以我剛剛舉的是兩個非常荒謬的例子當然你可以再告訴我其他例子可是我要說從這兩個荒謬例子才可以凸顯我剛剛說這兩個法現在大雜燴之荒謬之混亂的狀況"},{"start":902.876,"end":919.184,"text":"第三個第18條關於關於辭職的部分其實剛黃國昌委員也講了因離病至無法執行職務逾六個月我認為這是非常針對性的寫法明明在相關的公務人員辦法裡面請假辦法裡面就已經有相關的辦法為什麼還要在這裡多寫上一條"},{"start":919.824,"end":932.672,"text":"我光是就這其中三條關於主管機關關於品德跟忠誠的查核還是還有關於離病的這個部分影響了非常多相關政務人員的權利我覺得非常非常的荒謬這邊以上請秘書長一起回答 謝謝"},{"start":933.8,"end":950.511,"text":"好 謝謝 我就簡短中後回答就是說 委員剛剛舉的那個例子現實上是有可能發生的政治實務上因為很多任命或者是宣布任命常常是在就職前那這個就是政治屬性在政務官層是政治屬性上會發生的事那這個條文的原"},{"start":951.671,"end":978.417,"text":"原來的應該是來自於我們任用法那它因為它本來是對文官的規範那在對文官任用之前進行相關查核這個比較不是執行上比較沒有問題但是如果是對政務人員的部分的話它比較就會有委員剛剛講那個例子那現實上的確會有這個這樣的類似的狀況不管地方或中央那所以這個也就是回答委員第一個問題就是說考試院本來任用法是文官的法制"},{"start":978.877,"end":1001.414,"text":"那這個相關的部分如果把它應用在政務人員身上的話因為它的屬性就會差別很大才會有剛剛委員舉例的那樣的狀況所以它的確不太適合有考試院來主管因為考試院是比較文官法制屬性的一個機關那政務官的確是高度的政治性尤其這裡面還包含了民選政治首長還有所有民選政治首長任命的政務人員"},{"start":1002.375,"end":1025.684,"text":"那你講那個第三個部分這部分我覺得可能會變成是說有些法條如果不是那麼的明確的話最後也會出現各說各話比如說責任歸屬啦是不是有達到所謂廢止職務或者是誰在廢止職務的一些權限爭議的問題這個也有可能會變成可能是不一定在限制上有辦法去做明確的認定以上"},{"start":1026.363,"end":1042.425,"text":"好我想最後我就再做一個結論不管是我剛剛隨便舉出來這三條多麼的荒謬我要再次拜託主席拜託羅志強委員我剛羅志強委員你剛還沒有來我就再講一次所有這些你們現在提案的版本根本就是一個大雜燴在相關的辦法裡面其實都已經有了"},{"start":1042.725,"end":1066.214,"text":"那各自的規範如果委員們覺得有不足其實關於部分條文都可以去修正就好了而不是在立出一個荒謬期非常荒謬的專法而且我剛說是大雜燴到底是適用於文官還是適用於政務人員可能委員們自己都還沒有想得很清楚就只是想要針對個案去做攻擊所以我最後一個荒謬的例子再請秘書長告訴我對不對就像當年馬英九總統要卸任的時候是小英總統要接棒"},{"start":1066.974,"end":1070.036,"text":"那難道小英總統的政務官派任相關的查核要交給馬英九政府來決定嗎這非常非常的荒謬所以拜託所有的委員請踩下煞車 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謝謝有請我們委員長請委員長好 委員長早 還好吧陳委員早安"},{"start":11.254,"end":33.712,"text":"好 那我想就這個僑民的異難這個新制上路後的執行狀況跟委員長您做一個討論那先前有其他的委員也曾經跟您詢問過為了讓不同身份的這個異難在伏兵役的義務更加公平也避免這個假僑民徵逃兵的狀況"},{"start":34.833,"end":54.838,"text":"有關僑民一覽的這個新規定從9月8號開始實施到現在已經超過三個月了包括新制的申請流程和所需的這個文件或是出境後四個月內要補交相關的文件等配套措施那實際上它的操作方式以及審核的這個期程"},{"start":55.698,"end":70.604,"text":"會不會過於冗長那這些複雜的手續和不確定性可能都會造成年輕僑民不安進而減少他們回到台灣的意願也由於這個政策上路時較為倉促引發僑民很多的疑慮"},{"start":74.806,"end":101.253,"text":"這個新的政策雖然有我們僑委會整理好的懶人包協助理解但是對於中文程度相對弱勢的僑民來說可能還是不好理解甚至在這個申請出境文件審查的這個平台上也是以中文為主那這個部分是不是有我們僑委會擬定什麼樣的一個改善的空間 有沒有"},{"start":102.318,"end":121.784,"text":"謝謝陳委員的關心事實上我們在11月開始我們就已經製作所有英文版的懶人包以及所有的表格文件資料我們林貴的辦理也都有中英文的協助所以如果不是華語程度很好的人"},{"start":122.364,"end":125.407,"text":"來一樣可以沒有溝通障礙我們會用英文跟他們協助這是第一點那第二點我們也在這將近三個多月的時間當中逐步的觀察就是謝謝很多"},{"start":138.761,"end":157.627,"text":"海外僑民還是願意配合我們這些相關的政策隨著第一個月確實有很多因為心智上路的不熟悉不了解或者是沒有資訊造成很多錯誤的理解隨著我們在這兩個月當中密集的去做很多溝通跟宣傳以後"},{"start":158.627,"end":177.071,"text":"那現在各種負面不理解的錯誤資訊呢就下降很多然後來辦理的速度也快很多那我們也要一次持續的動態檢討就是說看明年度開始我們可不可以做一些改變首先第一個改變是我們明年1月2號起我們會增加多一個據點在高雄就是所有的跟我們"},{"start":186.074,"end":202.991,"text":"僑委會有關的證件的辦理呢在高雄也可以遞件 當然就包括華僑 議政用的華僑身份證明書那我們也是有鑑於說僑民一覽會返國最多的人數呢 大約都會是落在農曆年前的這個半個月當中 所以我們"},{"start":206.834,"end":211.779,"text":"就明年的1月下旬開始我們會更加強做這一方面的這個協助所以我們現在是北高2點那如果高雄這個據點的量也有相當的幅度我們也在預算允許的狀況下我們願意再評估中部地區是不是再多增設一個點這樣子不過跟委員說明是因為我們每多增設一個點我們的人力的成本"},{"start":232.056,"end":234.977,"text":"跟我們的負擔確實都是相當大那在我們沒有增加新的預算結構之下我們現在其實都是雲芝我們原來既有的人力拜託同仁辛苦一點我們多派一位同仁下去做這樣子的業務而且我們也拜託我們在南部辦公室"},{"start":251.844,"end":256.107,"text":"特別給我們一個空間來提供我們做這樣的變名服務那所幸我們行政院南部辦公室也都給我們很好的協助所以我們明年1月2號開始呢也就是這個禮拜五我們就開始啟用我們的南部辦公室讓他們可以來遞送案件那除此之外我們也考慮到在下個年度我們議政用的這個華僑身份證明書我們也要把它改為"},{"start":281.322,"end":290.029,"text":"可以用數位的領取方式那這樣就更便利我們這些僑民就是說他來送件的時候是因為護照無論是中華民國護照或他國護照我們還是要驗證正本那但是之後的他就不用他可以就離開送完件就可以離開我們在審核半天之後可以用數位版的模式傳給他那這個數位版會有我們的數位認證計畫讓議政司讓"},{"start":310.644,"end":321.214,"text":"移民署他們都可以追蹤這個我們的數位編號所以這個也會有助於讓我們的這個申請者呢更加的便利也節省時間好委員長剛剛您說就是我們會增加一個高雄的據點是那"},{"start":328.351,"end":353.956,"text":"後續可能還會沿你中部的一個據點可是我好像沒有看到沒有聽到你說東部的據點這個有沒有可能委員我們會評估就是說我們移民的人數的分佈當然如果說我們預算夠充足我們當然希望北中南東都各有一個據點來方便就近服務這個是我們當然長遠來想我們希望這樣做這部分要拜託委員長"},{"start":355.096,"end":372.615,"text":"對 所以我也希望說就我現在先以拓一點高雄的據點南部來先試試看一年的辦理有多少案件量那如果案件量有相當的比例我們就會繼續擴增到中部那中部也有大的飽和量我們也會持續思考"},{"start":372.995,"end":390.793,"text":"是不是再進行到東部所以我們是一點一點穩健的來擴增那因為也是有鑑於國家預算整體是有限的所以我們總是在思考說怎麼樣一方面能變明然後一方面能提高我們的這個服務效率再加上說我們的預算不用花費很多"},{"start":391.994,"end":406.862,"text":"那針對這個華僑身份證明書的有效期目前是只有一年那有些僑民他們常常在反映他們回來的回國的次數也不是很多是不是在這個證明書的有效期有沒有可能做"},{"start":407.502,"end":412.525,"text":"這個延長的調整這個我們可能還要再研究法規因為這個是跟法規綁在一起的目前我們的華僑身份證明書是本來都是提供給一些僑胞他們要返國去做財產繼承啦土地買賣啦或是投資啦去給其他各部會驗證用的所以我們其實都是比照國內的這個相關證件的邏輯你看一般互證事務所是以半年為效期就你申請這案件到你辦這個文件"},{"start":436.616,"end":452.018,"text":"只有半年效期那我們是以說因為在海外所以我們是一年效期那所以因為每一個人都是在變動中的狀態他可能今年是在這個國家明年可能換到另外一個國家所以如果我們現在提供過長其實也不一定是一個合理的狀態"},{"start":453.376,"end":474.95,"text":"那再來是對於這個出境時候需要上傳可證明的四個月內居住於僑居地的這個文件這個部分那我想因為這個部分有一些僑居地實際生活地的這個與實際生活地的不同的僑民會因為在取得這個證明文件上的一個困難"},{"start":476.252,"end":492.65,"text":"比如說他是在亞洲工作可是在亞洲工作或是在這裡讀書或是在這裡旅行可是他實際居住地是在美國那你為了要取得這個證明文件他還得飛往美國去取得證明文件之後再飛回我們台灣"},{"start":493.371,"end":510.886,"text":"那針對這個部分我們有沒有可能有一個調整或是變動的一個方式有 我們也在評估當中看怎麼樣事實上其實是這樣四個月是往前推也往後推就是說它四個月內所以你一年當中有八個月的時間你至少有機會回去一次你的僑居地嘛"},{"start":511.806,"end":537.881,"text":"只要你在那一次有進去無論是你的護照上面有蓋一個章或者是你有一張這個入出境的這個boarding pass任何其實都可以當作一個證明書所以不必然就是說比方說你回來時間是4月那你往前推就是前一年的12月開始的資料你都可以去看哪一次你有進入到你原來就是你持有來申請文件的那個國"},{"start":539.162,"end":563.183,"text":"的護照或是永久居留證或是你四月之後的四個月一直到七月底你也可以去看你有沒有回到你自己的那個護照國的那個地點這個八個月的儲談信息其實是有的現在是因為大家還不了解這個談信息的概念那同時也可能不知道這個文件哪些東西是算有效跟無效那我們會加強再進一步宣導讓大家多了解"},{"start":565.805,"end":585.596,"text":"好 那就針對這個部分我想還是請我們僑委會能夠對於在整個流程或是審查的過程裡面能夠更加的辨明避免讓民眾認為說我們好像是在這個刻意提高相關的審查門檻要來讓民眾不方便"},{"start":587.036,"end":607.564,"text":"門檻確實是有提高一些但是就是為了預防這個有弊端那所以造成有一些人變成成本要提高這個是當然是很不得已的我們也是擔心說我們把門檻提高反而讓僑民認為我們好像是要讓他們越離我們越離越遠其實並沒有並沒有並沒有好 以上謝謝陳委員"}]}},{"id":"166740","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166740","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb1f67063ba8c17b100b1ecef7239bdfb16fb1c3064c91a0f45f6fa5687ff727cf65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:26:10 - 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去年12月就開始請了嘛他會把士兵價什麼都先扣掉嘛"},{"start":186.796,"end":205.148,"text":"所以還要繼續然後特休也要把它放進去嗎不是啊我是一個法律人我聽到這個我已經聽不下去了我為什麼聽不下去病假就病假試假就試假休假就休假"},{"start":206.493,"end":218.728,"text":"我跟委員報告 他是之前先請他的休假先請他的病假所以他一開始去住院的時候是用市假的名義去住院嗎是嗎具體的細節我不知道來 請監察院的代表假是怎麼請的"},{"start":225.033,"end":252.823,"text":"報告委員根據公務人員請假規則的規則然後如果是說因為重大傷病非短期間所能治癒的部分的話他其實是在依規定可以在合給的病假試假及休假均請閉之後是總共加起來幾天兩年內可以就是請不得超過一年然後總共加起來的部分的話因為我們院長其實他公職資歷比較長所以他的那個休假的部分有30天所以總共加起來可以請幾天"},{"start":254.167,"end":280.944,"text":"如果是試駕並駕休假的部分的話一年原則上應該是可以先請65天所以他現在是一年加65天還要再等兩個月就對了是嗎因為去年他應該是12月請假嘛是吧去年12月底的時候因為這個新聞上都有去年12月底開始請假但是我們如果在114年的時候從1月開始的部分的話可以先請完他的試駕並駕休假之後"},{"start":282.955,"end":309.024,"text":"才會再請延長病假對 所以延長病假可以請到什麼時候全體國人很關心嘛我們台灣是法治國家嘛不要因人設事嘛全體國人很關心啊當然啦你如果說從政務人員自我要求的角度來講擔任這麼重要的政務人員超過一年沒有辦法上班還是決定不辭職"},{"start":310.768,"end":335.843,"text":"其實也是讓大家看了覺得不曉得該怎麼形容沒有關係每一個人有每一個人的政治選擇因為現在沒有政務人員法嘛你如果按照2012年那一版的政務人員法的話這個就構成了必須要請辭的事由了嘛但我們現在沒有政務人員法就沒有辦法嘛每一個政務人員自己選擇自己去注意社會上面的觀感嘛"},{"start":337.554,"end":346.01,"text":"大家現在看不懂的是監察院反正是肥貓院也沒有什麼關係有沒有院長也沒有什麼差別"},{"start":348.087,"end":370.198,"text":"所以呢我們在規範這麼重要的問題竟然是回到了公務人員請假規則公務人員請假規則明明生病是病假但沒有關係我們從寬認定試假也可以其他假也可以全部假全部都累積起來沒有關係所以全部的假累積起來什麼時候會期滿現在沒有辦法回答沒有關係會後書面回覆可以嗎"},{"start":378.354,"end":397.125,"text":"這個我們可以回覆說我們都是依規定會讓就是說就是都是依規定請假的部分啊所以說我們今年度基本上市併休請完明年也是會是市併休請完之後然後在兩年內不得延長一年的狀況之下然後請沒有啦依法不就一年嗎怎麼聽你現在講起來要請兩年喔"},{"start":403.644,"end":417.993,"text":"這個部分的話因為我們其實是都是依照請假規則的規定在做請假公務人員也都是這樣子沒有關係啊你們是不是有按照規則大家看在眼裡啊我們繼續往下看現在陳菊請假嘛黃士卓出任監察院秘書長誰挑選決定的誰決定的"},{"start":427.592,"end":456.158,"text":"這個是我們院有經過那個知情總統同意對啊誰就是誰決定的是總統決定的還是現在代理院長決定的這個你沒辦法回答好啊監察院另外一位代表有辦法回答嗎直接由總統決定嗎所以是你們簽公文上去嗎你們完全沒有簽公文上去"},{"start":459.621,"end":474.253,"text":"不好意思你們兩個現在回答不太一致你們有簽公文給總統說要請黃士卓出任監察院秘書長嗎有嗎所以給總統的那個建請的那個之文任命黃士卓是誰蓋章的本院 代理院長嗎"},{"start":488.39,"end":516.471,"text":"依照監察院組織法的規定秘書長由誰挑選決定依照監察院組織法的規定秘書長由誰挑選決定就特任人員的部分就是陳院長致命處理事務啊所以這個部分你們回去看一下法規嚴格啦我實在真的是大開眼界"},{"start":517.734,"end":543.513,"text":"自己對自己組織法裡面主管的法規可以不收成這個樣子沒有關係不為難你們你們都是專業優秀的事務官我為什麼會提這個問題出來找一個發表不實言論抹黑人家被判刑有罪確定的人我先不管他黨派色彩夠不夠找一個被判有罪確定的人"},{"start":544.813,"end":568.563,"text":"然後要長監察院的秘書長要整治關真他先整治他自己的關真吧他先整治他自己的關真吧任用這麼重要的位置現在已經是沒有標準了啦也不用考慮社會觀感院長請假超過一年沒有關係"},{"start":570.543,"end":598.221,"text":"找一個被判刑有罪確定的人來當秘書長也沒有關係因為這個地方社會對他已經沒有期待這個地方社會對他已經沒有期待要養什麼人 塞什麼人 當政治疏紅到就是現在監察院存在的目的李靜怡 林玉榮 蘇利窮 王榮章違法濫用公務車"},{"start":601.229,"end":628.196,"text":"去年六月移送紀律委員會用最快的速度處理到九月的時候沒有處理那時候監察院來找我 拜託我支持他們的預算 給他們一點錢能夠做一些活動我那個時候 扛著政治壓力 我點頭了我說好好做 好好做你們的複密跟我說 九月份會處理"},{"start":630.337,"end":658.926,"text":"處理到現在10月的時候紀律委員會完成調查報告10月份會審議審議的結果為後續的處理審議完了沒有審議完了沒有報告委員現在已經送到院會審議現在在審議程序中還要審議多久報告委員院會審議這個是秘密的會議所以這個程序我們並不了解沒有關係啊所以就要攤開來給社會大眾看嘛"},{"start":661.631,"end":689.89,"text":"讓全台灣人看一看嘛什麼叫做官官相護嘛什麼叫官官相護嘛回去轉告代理院長以及副秘書長我這個人可以被你騙一次但我絕對不會被騙第二次今年九月的時候在這邊協商你們的追加預算的時候"},{"start":691.274,"end":718.545,"text":"你們的副秘書長是怎麼跟我拍胸脯保證的9月一定會處理處理到現在12月啦處理到現在12月啦錢騙到了以後能拖就拖 能混就混上下交鄉賊 大家一起胡搞瞎搞這個國家還有什麼關鍵啊"},{"start":720.923,"end":744.725,"text":"這國家還有什麼關鍾啊來 請考試院我上一次說齁我成立了國發基金調查委員會的時候我是很認真在做調查我還寫了大概是本院少有的國發基金調查委員會的調查報告書那份調查報告書我寫了非常的久"},{"start":745.902,"end":768.178,"text":"以前成立什麼調閱小組大概都虎頭蛇尾連一個調閱報告都沒有我花了很久的時間寫調查報告書其中有一段是這個國發基金自己的執行長執行秘書在掌理這麼重要的國發基金要投資哪一家公司這麼重要的事情"},{"start":769.489,"end":792.45,"text":"結果自己退休了以後跑去他決定要投資的那家公司當董事這是什麼跟什麼啊這明確的違反了公務員服務法第16條的規定當我說明確違反公務員服務法第16條規定的時候啊國發基金 國發會很會趕快幫忙找黨建牌"},{"start":793.911,"end":819.094,"text":"法條的文藝如此的明確公務員與其離職後三年內不可以擔任與其離職前五年內職務直接相關的盈利事業董事國發基金的執行秘書參與審議決定要投資那家公司結果離職後馬上去那家公司當董事公務員服務法白紙黑字寫得這麼清楚"},{"start":820.885,"end":842.541,"text":"你不用用什麼目的解釋 體系解釋 歷史解釋不用用那麼複雜的法律解釋的方法我一解釋看就知道了當然是違反公務員服務法16條結果我們的國發基金膽子好大趕快幫忙脫罪脫罪的方法是什麼 找你們懸序部以前的一個韓式"},{"start":845.856,"end":867.084,"text":"說國發基金投資完全不是用公務員服務法旋轉門的條款我上一次質詢的時候我也跟你們解釋過你們過去的那個函式有多荒謬有多荒謬 按照你們那個函式你們那個考試院的函式現在荒謬成什麼 變成公務員服務法16條的後門條款"},{"start":870.287,"end":889.917,"text":"用一個絕對錯誤的函式來架空公務員服務法16條的規定我請你們回去承諾檢討那你們檢討完了也回來給我不過你們寫得很好你們是補充說明 是吧不是更正 是補充說明所以是更正還是補充說明"},{"start":895.775,"end":912.002,"text":"應該是更正喔所以在你們更正前那就沒有辦法啦就被他逃掉啦是這個態度嗎來來來 你們選區部的函發的是什麼再補充如說明你們告訴我的是補充嘛那現在看起來到底是補充還是更正"},{"start":925.248,"end":939.603,"text":"我想我們部裡的態度就是我們本來有一個舊的韓式不夠完整 也謝謝委員的指教所以我們就把它再召開各機關來討論所以你認為你們過去所謂不完整的韓式到時候"},{"start":940.544,"end":955.613,"text":"有人去告發他違反公務員服務法16條你認不認為你們那個不完整的韓式會拿來被犯罪嫌疑人作為抗辯的室友所以我就按照考試院的韓式啊考試院的韓式說這樣做沒有問題啊"},{"start":956.847,"end":965.336,"text":"我想跟委員報告 我想任何的訴訟最後都是法院會去做裁判那法院會不會幫新的一個...對啊 但問題是為什麼會出來這個東西為什麼會出現這個問題這個問題一開始就不應該出現嘛"},{"start":974.441,"end":1003.457,"text":"為什麼在追溯違反公務員服務法16條的道路上會出現了一個在規範上面本來根本就不應該存在的障礙事由不就是你們考試院創造出來的嗎我想跟委員發言因為那時候我雖然不在部聯不過我可以理解那時候因為對政府可能對投資這個部分還沒有很多的這一方面那時候是在採購跟跟營價為主所以我想當初的當初的背景所以呢"},{"start":1004.005,"end":1029.398,"text":"所以我們因為新的一個發展形勢變更 謝委員的指正新的發展形勢 你講的好像是2025年我們政府才開始投資一樣從舊的韓式 到現在考試院有停止運作過嗎全序部有停止運作過嗎沒有啊沒有啊你說要因應時代的需要對啊"},{"start":1030.39,"end":1059.412,"text":"你們就你們所長的業務有因應時代的需要嗎有切合現實的需要嗎因為你們這個韓式幫這種可恥的行為創造了法規上的障礙這個就是我今天要講的當然是法院最後認定嘛那法官想說啊 人家就按照選區部的韓式啊國發基金也幫他脫罪啊怎麼會有問題"},{"start":1063.374,"end":1087.873,"text":"結果選區部幹的不是好好的在貫徹公務員服務法16條應該要求的標準是在幫忙開後門讓人大開眼界大開眼界這個案子最後進入了司法程序以後會怎麼處理我們拭目以待看我今天在這邊預測的你們幫這種可恥的行為開了後門我講的對還不對"}]}},{"id":"166739","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166739","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb1a0b16607070185ca29097fae15897403fb1c3064c91a0f45a3b85e23f7c4a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:39:11 - 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委員長早辛苦了那本席呢最近呢有看了一些省紀部的一些資料想要跟委員長來聊一聊我們這個愛喬卡那省紀部他的這個報告裡面有提到就是說截到今年的六月份呢愛喬卡發行了九萬七千八百九十張因為那是六月份的這個數據我想了解就是說今年已經是二零二五年的"},{"start":38.385,"end":42.307,"text":"最後一天這半年來我們這個i喬卡的這個發行量有沒有在增加有我們到這個禮拜為止呢已經接近12萬張了11萬6千將近7千張將近12萬張因為為什麼本席會議這麼問是因為在去年的時候去年3月份的時候喬卡會的這個業務報告裡提到說三年內呢要衝20萬張的這個目標那其實"},{"start":66.961,"end":69.822,"text":"三年應該是指111年發行到現在的所謂的三年嗎還是說你從去年開始算起三年因為我不曉得這個目標只是從什麼時候來算起這個問題當時是因為楊瓊英委員關心所以他希望我們能夠多加努力"},{"start":87.41,"end":104.733,"text":"那我當時也有跟委員答應說我們盡量在三年內能夠充到二十萬張那事實上不是從因為111年是年底才開始的是九月份嘛對所以我們原則上是希望明年可以達到一樣二十萬張的目標"},{"start":105.874,"end":109.155,"text":"有信心嗎對當然有很大的挑戰不過我們事實上在愛喬卡已經沒有編列任何的行銷預算主要的還是只剩下這個網站很少很少的維運費而已那當時發行這個愛喬卡是把它從實體卡轉為數位卡的一個概念然後也希望說能夠擴大使用的一些範圍"},{"start":133.099,"end":157.216,"text":"那我們確實在這幾年當中也非常積極的在海外進行行銷那目前12萬張接近的這個數字並不是非常好但是我們也有非常的同仁非常的努力在沒有這個特殊預算的狀況下還是大家就各盡其職的在宣傳說愛喬卡的幾個功能除了我們"},{"start":158.737,"end":166.842,"text":"一些特約商店像在機場或者在海外的一些特約商店之外我們也跟國內的100多家醫療院所有簽了這個MOU希望說鼓勵我們的僑胞朋友"},{"start":173.967,"end":178.632,"text":"可以在健檢或者是說他在返國做一些醫療的時候他可以用我們的這個按小卡可以事先的預約括號那這樣會有助於他們安排一些他們的旅程"},{"start":189.142,"end":201.669,"text":"那這個我也很謝謝我們這些醫療院所他們跟我們簽訂的這些MOU提供我們海外僑胞這樣的一個便利性那除此之外愛僑卡確實有發揮一點功能是這幾年只要有愛僑卡的這個僑胞他們在辦理報名各項的業務的時候就會非常快速他只要填上他卡號他就不用再填其他資料馬上這個資料就可以匯進來"},{"start":214.495,"end":217.036,"text":"那所以我們透過這個愛喬卡提供各種的資訊讓主動的提供他們資訊讓他們知道說最新的一些政策是什麼還有僑務工作是什麼那這幾項功能呢這幾年還是持續的維持在這樣的一個運作狀態那也持續都還有僑胞每個禮拜一千多張的這個速度在辦所以"},{"start":241.363,"end":257.42,"text":"我們現在平均大概一年占到這個速度就是五萬五千張左右所以我當時會這樣子估算還是有一個基礎的所以現在愛喬卡其實本身就已經推展其實就不是那麼的順利再加上現在的這個因為宣傳費"},{"start":259.042,"end":262.645,"text":"是因為這個沒有著落嗎我們現在是宣傳費被卡的意思嗎所以沒有辦法來做推廣吧我們也認為說愛小卡這種它並不是類似像信用卡這樣的性質所以它本身一開始就是一個認同卡的概念而已那是前委員長希望把它從這個實體轉為數位化我們才開始做這樣子的一個改變跟行銷"},{"start":286.545,"end":311.643,"text":"不過既然已經辦了我們還是盡可能要讓他發揮最大的功能那當時也有答應就是說我們後面就只有維持一定的量能不再加碼也不再編列預算來執行擴大愛喬卡的業務大致上是這樣因為在還有講到這個功能的部分剛剛委員長有提到其實愛喬卡其實不是只是一個很多人想說可能就是一個優惠卡"},{"start":312.604,"end":327.742,"text":"它是兼具了服務卡跟類似卡的功能像之前的話我一樣也是看到審計部的報告他有提到他們有做過訪談雖然受訪的人數我看是不多就58位的受訪者可是呢愛喬卡的裡面有45位"},{"start":332.107,"end":342.437,"text":"58位這個台僑包其實裡面就有45位持有可是這45位只有20其實有23個人還是沒有用過這個愛僑卡比如說我們有什麼的特約商店可以消費他們是沒有去消費那45個人當中又有41個人不知道愛僑卡可以綁定像這個僑物電子"},{"start":355.71,"end":367.477,"text":"LINE官方帳號等等也就是說其實有很多人其實他擁有這個愛喬卡可是他卻不知道如何使用是不是連這個部分的話我們其實也要去做加強"},{"start":368.827,"end":384.681,"text":"對 我們在各種業務推動的時候每個現場我們大概都會做這個Banner應該說那個Banner就是萬年Banner我們都拿出來再解釋一下幫助一些可能比較年長的他們不太知道我們這麼多功能怎麼使用的人"},{"start":385.462,"end":390.003,"text":"那大部分如果是年輕人他們都比較知道怎麼使用這個數位卡的模式因為各家的特約商店提供的一些優惠會一直改變的所以如果要知道最新的方案還是都需要去看我們的那個網站上面update的新資料那我們也都拜託同仁無論是在國內的或在海外的同仁"},{"start":411.209,"end":415.711,"text":"只要我們特約商店有什麼異動的時候都要隨時來聯絡讓我們可以更新我們的網站以便提供足夠的資訊那事實上以喬委會現在的狀況來說我們愛喬卡這個業務事實上是已經沒有在下個年度起就沒有編列業務費用了"},{"start":430.857,"end":434.7,"text":"當初編連的預算其實是以20萬張作為目標當時並沒有定目標當時並沒有定目標以我們現在在海外的所謂台橋的人數來說208萬左右"},{"start":449.992,"end":465.363,"text":"那這個我們現在目前是發行接近12萬張那當時我會以20萬張當作一個這個target的概念是因為我認為說至少應該有十分之一的人要持有這個卡"},{"start":466.184,"end":482.156,"text":"那才會有相對比較好的運用意義所以以當時這個計畫來說最初最最初開始的時候並沒有設定一個人數的這個目標值直到委員來詢問的時候我們才提出說我們願意以這個10%的台橋人數來當作是一個目標來做這樣的努力是"},{"start":490.942,"end":505.879,"text":"是所以這邊說到年底為止有沒有將近12萬張的愛喬卡也就是說到明年為止我們就不再發新的卡出去的這個意思了嗎因為是數位的還是可以持續一直做可是就是沒有不會就是網站我們不再編列業務費的意思就是說沒有特別的行銷或promote的方法"},{"start":509.943,"end":538.057,"text":"要申請的話大家還是都可以照常就是不會像過去這樣子是很積極在推推展以前會有方案推推現在的話就是因為沒有編列預算我們沒有編列預算所以就沒有特殊方案推但是我們就是搭配我們業務有人來申請就就就合併這樣子可是就是說要怎麼使用的話可能這部分功能我們還是一樣加強用網站上面的一些行銷的模式減少這個預算的這個沒有的狀況之下的一種宣傳OK了解好以上謝謝"},{"start":538.758,"end":538.778,"text":"謝謝國務委員 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謝謝主席那這個請委員長很謝謝請委員長"},{"start":11.488,"end":39.775,"text":"三位委員長好 委員長好要不要先喘口氣不好意思可以的 可以的 感謝您那這個就是因為這一次這個夜報裡面其實有提到就是要連結這個海外橋台商跟台灣產業的這個共同發展那裡面呢其實呢尤其是第一點就是說這一個加強這個台灣的優勢跟布局韌性的供應鏈因為現在呢有兩條軸線第一個軸線就是美國在主導的這一個所謂的非紅供應鏈"},{"start":40.815,"end":55.929,"text":"但另外一個就是我們台灣自己剛好也面對就是跟美國這個關稅現在也大概可能快要定案了那很多的這個在海外的這些商人有我們的台商多少一定會有一些策略佈局的一些影響那不知道僑委會現在在這個連結這個台商跟我們的產業在這兩條軸線上面有什麼經濟的一些作為"},{"start":62.494,"end":87.726,"text":"剛剛我們的報告當中當然是近年來因為這個國際局勢的劇烈變化所以產業的穩定安全性以及這種韌性的需求就隨著越來越受到重視那我們一方面也看到我們國內產業基於在拓展的過程當中要向海外去投資所以我們是利用在這一年多的時間裡面"},{"start":89.247,"end":92.449,"text":"鼓勵我們在海外的這些世界台商會的系統他們可以加強來辦理無論是他們的所在國或者是在台灣會先辦理一些這個這個講座座談那我們也會派國內的一些產學研的代表去擔任他們的講師然後跟他們形成座談這樣的模式那我自己親自去參加這些他們一年一度的理監事大會的時候"},{"start":118.843,"end":125.027,"text":"也都會安排類似的這種課程或是講座然後大家做一些交流跟這個對話那這樣的話我們可以掌握每一個地區或國家他們的這個關稅發展趨勢或當地國的經濟模式那以便輔導我們的廠商盡量的往一些更有韌性的方向去移動那也讓他們知道說"},{"start":144.139,"end":165.612,"text":"其他國他們會採取什麼樣的對應措施甚至也積極的建議他們如何對當地國的政府去進行一些遊說的工作那尤其我舉個例子來說我們在東南亞的這些台商來說他們有些比較早進軍第一波南向的時候已經都突破30年了"},{"start":166.312,"end":187.111,"text":"那第二波雖然是在新南向政策不到十年的時間但是最近我們已經接受到非常多新的這個財商的反應就是表示說他們認為我們在第二波新南向的一個方向是很對他有利的他們現在大部分企業規模越來越好的都會把接單研發跟設計把他總公司設在台灣"},{"start":192.516,"end":208.841,"text":"那在他們所在的這個國家呢就當作是市場的這個規模有相當的基礎的他就把它設廠在當地而且就會分散投資的模式所以即便是在東南亞國家有的會同時投資三國越南馬來西亞"},{"start":210.962,"end":219.152,"text":"印尼那透過這種分散的投資模式他不會把所有的雞蛋都放在同一個籃子的模式即使是增加他們的一些這個韌性那因為各國也有不同的這個關稅的這個結構那所以在這樣的狀況之下"},{"start":228.043,"end":236.607,"text":"不可諱言的現在東南亞有些傳統產業製造業他們也感受到一些新的壓力了因為有些國家是想要升級的所以他們的一些環保標準或者他們的法律規範都逐年在提升當中"},{"start":245.191,"end":251.714,"text":"尤其像以越南來說越南一直很想發展這個科技產業所以他已經大幅度的在往科技產業這個路徑在移動的時候他對傳統產業的要求就開始逐年在提升所以類似這樣的狀況我們當然有不少在海外的這種台商"},{"start":265.76,"end":270.321,"text":"他也會感受到這種傳統產業的壓力所以我們在輔導他的過程當中也有不斷提醒說要適度的用淨零碳排用自動化生產來進行升級也看到不少例子已經確實往這個方向走而且有相當的成績所以這個過程當中我們一方面是讓國內的產官學員來協輔我們海外的台商"},{"start":293.268,"end":296.849,"text":"另外一方面海外的台商他們也加強跟我們從國內出去海外投資的這些台灣的跨國廠商也開始產生多一點的對接然後彼此形成供應鏈的模式"},{"start":309.694,"end":313.397,"text":"那這個也是我們目前比較積極在努力的目標就是讓國內的企業對海外的投資的時候無論他去北美洲的美國或者是到東南亞的其他國家都能夠有一個比較好的基礎讓他的產業鏈比較安全那這個部分呢確實是這一年多來我們很加強在努力的目標"},{"start":332.894,"end":359.155,"text":"對 因為我覺得這很重要就是因為在幾年前我有在這個立陶宛那時候遇到你那時候我還沒有在立院其實在那一個時候我們對立陶宛的投資就已經有這個雛形的存在這個是對外就是說因為我們剛剛講到那時候在跟很多的這個台灣的這些商人在講說這個因為國際現在軍購案也特別多但台灣有時候我們自己的市場不夠大所以它如果只為了我們台灣自己的市場要去開模要幹嘛它不一定願意"},{"start":359.835,"end":384.042,"text":"大家如果跟海外的來做合作因為海外也有在這個市場它等於公司在這一邊然後在其他又跟比如說在跟捷克或是跟其他的國家的這一些廠商合作它也去吃海外的市場這個時候巧合會其實扮演非常重要的功能所以這個我是覺得剛剛藉由這個機會因為葉報只能講一些比較抽象的東西但是剛剛幾個具體的例子我是覺得有必要讓國人知道但我現在想倒過來問就是說因為我們剛剛講的是我們對外"},{"start":388.263,"end":406.421,"text":"那我們隊內就是說我們有這一個我想問一下我們這一個這個防衛任性的我們之前問過了我想問這一個我們的產學攜手合作這個僑生專班就是說我們僑生專班現在一年收個這一個我們一年可能有五千 六千人應該都有但因為"},{"start":407.082,"end":421.438,"text":"我看到這一個我們最右下角這一塊這個1130年度我們要增加招收服務類科的僑生因應需求但我們現在服務類科的只有600個名額因為我們畢竟台灣服務業也是"},{"start":422.179,"end":438.816,"text":"也是蠻壯大的所以這一點是否可以跟國人說明就是說我們這一點是我們是因為跟其他的產業來做平衡我們有一個相關的這樣的一個政策還是說我們以後會針對服務業會稍微擴張還是我們會停留在這裡這個政策是否跟國人說明一下"},{"start":438.936,"end":459.085,"text":"是跟委員報告一下因為我們在111年112年的時候在政策方向上一度有說停止招收服務那一科那後來經過我們積極在反映業界需求以後呢113年重新恢復所以這個600人是那一年恢復的時候的額度那事實上今年我們已經擴增到1750人了那這樣合理多了"},{"start":461.926,"end":466.747,"text":"合理多了已經比例達到21%然後明年會持續到1900多人接近2000人所以這個人數我們還是有在放寬當中那就是說因應我們是滾動式的檢討因應著國內的各種人才的需求來做一些類科的分類招生那所以服務類科目前是從21%會到23%這樣子的一個比例來進行這個招募"},{"start":490.414,"end":513.296,"text":"OK那最後因為時間只剩一點點我還是想問一下因為我們這個總預算一直沒有審所以呢 就是行星計畫還有像這一個延續性計畫會受到影響那我稍微看了一下就是跟喬委會有關的雖然現在預算就沒辦法審但我們還是很認真在看這個預算就是說看來這個延續性的計畫其中這個回國升學這個部分呢影響的數額我看蠻大的看起來有3億多"},{"start":517.178,"end":529.622,"text":"確實我們如果是延續性的這種預算還是可以在前半段先執行但是下學期比方說我們僑生馬上3月份開始他們的這個學費呢我們要全額去補助的時候我們確實因為這個預算還沒有全額通過"},{"start":540.825,"end":555.424,"text":"那所以我們今年跟去年有一個差別應該說今年114跟明年115有個差別是過往我們的學費當中呢三分之二是我們編列預算三分之一是由"},{"start":556.704,"end":582.075,"text":"教育部來編列預算一起支應我們當時已經答應說我們從明年開始我們就要全部支應所以這個預算都會增加不少所以我們如果下學期開始我們要全額支應的時候我們是可以先把下半年的錢偷來上半年用暫時支應沒錯但是終究我們因為學生人數的增加我們一定會遇到很大虧"},{"start":582.795,"end":586.939,"text":"這個下半年就會受到影響因為它也包含健保包含學習付出金這個都包含在裡面我們一定都會受到影響因為我們因為這個量體一方面是擴大再來是金額的增加的數額所以我們如果說只運用今年的額度那過了上半學期之後確實一定是會不夠的"},{"start":602.273,"end":622.8,"text":"那這個當然是我們的這個希望說國會還是可以盡速來通過我們的這個115年度的預算案讓我們無論上學期或下學期都可以如期的來運作而且回到剛剛前面如果是我們在海外針對這些台商要去做一些輔助的時候這個海外信用保證基金應該也算很重要這也是個新興計畫"},{"start":624.08,"end":653.087,"text":"對 我們107年開始就已經說已經通過行政院的這個增資計畫多20億結果這8年來的都就是因為要有民間4成公務基金才能補助6成那我們前幾年因為疫情狀況都很不穩定的時候其實所有的台灣行庫幾乎就沒有再捐錢了直到今年我覺得這樣子不是個辦法所以又再度的走訪所有的銀行"},{"start":653.647,"end":677.009,"text":"那所有的公司銀行大家都很幫忙所以我們今年已經確定又募到了一筆款所以我們才對等編列這個公務款項那為什麼今年會這麼急的原因是因為今年對等關稅要實施很多人需要資金的流通所以我們希望把這個基金規模趕快到位這樣我受信額度就提高那我今年9月已經公布說我要從200萬"},{"start":678.45,"end":694.784,"text":"美金的額度要提高到300萬美金的額度所以我一定要努力的把我這個基金的規模可以做到30億那目前我只有22億而已對好 這個確實影響很大那因為時間的因素我其他的就可能在下次有機會的時候我再來問好 謝謝委員長謝謝沈委員 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"166737","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166737","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb1a1828bcea3b8a843b1ecef7239bdfb16fb1c3064c91a0f4510497944ed0372c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:05:47 - 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各位委員 以及列席的官員民進黨從發起大罷免開始大家可以去看看有多少的部會"},{"start":20.279,"end":36.877,"text":"是為了配合大罷免利用行政資源造謠洗地下鄉宣講像是續產會的董事長蘇志芬頻繁的回到雲林去支持大罷免勞動部部長洪森漢"},{"start":38.232,"end":55.288,"text":"發文推動大罵免時間是11點44分的上班時間然後在11點49分被發布在勞動部的媒體群組引發社會爭議然後他說那是叫請假 他有請假"},{"start":56.38,"end":78.778,"text":"那這些模糊地帶之所以發生就是因為我國對於政務人員的行為沒有像公務人員一樣建立明確而有拘束力的規範導致部分的政務官服務的對象不是國家跟人民而是披著行政外衣實則替特定政長作戰的政治打手"},{"start":79.915,"end":104.314,"text":"政務人員是基於政治信任而受任掌握政策形成規劃跟決策的核心位置對人事預算跟行政方向具有重大的影響正因為政務人員的權力重大影響深遠所以更應該有清楚的行為準繩與法律邊界但是現行的法制對政務人員行為規範仍相當不足所以"},{"start":105.114,"end":123.713,"text":"本席不是第一個提出政務人員行為基準法的立委事實上過去在民國84年98年101年考試院也曾經提出相關的草案顯見各界都認同當政務官掌握行政權力預算資源的時候"},{"start":124.454,"end":141.131,"text":"如果没有相对应的义务规范就容易将行政资源政治化让国家治理被选举算计取代让人民对政府公信力产生怀疑所以我们这次修法我的草案有三大方向"},{"start":141.912,"end":156.893,"text":"第一个就是明确政务人员行为边界要求在职务执行上必须维持公正与依法行政禁止政务人员滥用职权与行政资源介入政治活动不得影响他人的政治行为"},{"start":157.734,"end":178.756,"text":"不得在办公室时间替政党或候选人动员或助选第三个是命定责任与罚则机制确保法律具有实质拘束力本校重申行政机关应该是要服务人民而不是服务某个政党政务人员应该要守的是宪法跟法律不是政治任务清单"},{"start":179.477,"end":189.516,"text":"而政務人員行為基準法是保障國家治理不被政治濫用保障專業行政不被政黨挾持更保障人民對政府的信任以上 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那麼除了我們待會會講到的政務人員的屈指撫恤條例好 那麼事實上立法院早在民國84年的時候當時就做成附帶決議要求考試院要將政務官要政務人員法要函送立法院審查"},{"start":90.606,"end":113.943,"text":"那么最近一次的政务人员法的这个法案呢是在101年的时候送到立法院审议但是呢13年过去了我们看到这群权力庞大的决策者依然没有一部专门的法律来规范他们的行为以及任免本心认为这是很奇怪的拥有巨大权力庞大权力"},{"start":115.124,"end":135.35,"text":"還有分配資源的政務官卻沒有一部專法來規範我們目前對於政務官的權利義務的規範是相當自力破碎的而且是欠缺法源依據的那麼有關政務人員的任用薪水保障的規定大部分都是散落在不同的法規當中甚至有些只是行政命令法律效力未接不足像是這個政務人員的這個給予表"},{"start":141.252,"end":156.956,"text":"那其實它就是依照行政命令的位階來適用全國軍公教員工待遇知己要點那目前唯一的一部專屬正規人員的法典竟然是規定這些正規人員在退休之後怎麼領錢正規人員的退職撫恤條例像這種只管"},{"start":161.477,"end":181.337,"text":"退場領錢不管在場表現的法制漏洞不僅不利於政府的運作也難以回應公眾對於政務官紀律的期待尤其是近年來我們看到社會上屢次發生政務官行政不中立政治不中立甚至利用職權向大眾散佈不實"},{"start":182.778,"end":203.52,"text":"訊息的爭議那麼如果我們繼續任由這種制度的缺漏不僅會傷害文官體系的專業性更會動搖民主政治的根基那麼為了完備國家的法治落實責任政治所以本席在此特別提出這部政務人員法的草案那這部法的草案呢"},{"start":204.758,"end":225.927,"text":"本期基本上是參考這個過去考試院曾經向立法院提出的版本學者的建議以及現行相關的法規範的發展大致上分為四大重點第一個就是我們明確定義誰是政務官只要是總統任命立法院同意任命然後特調特派的人員以及民選地方行政首長等等都應該受到適度的規範第二個"},{"start":227.208,"end":252.026,"text":"就是建立嚴謹的退場以及考核機制只要是政務官表現不佳除了自行請辭往往只能靠政治責任下台所以本草案明確規定政務官未來如果有違法失職因案被羈押起訴或是因病無法執行職務超過半年類似像是陳菊院長這樣情況那麼上級機關就該予以免職此外為了杜絕利輸送我們也"},{"start":252.446,"end":269.199,"text":"增設了嚴格的消極資格譬如說曾經犯貪污內亂等等這些犯罪形態或是違反選罷法經過判刑確定的話就不能夠擔任政務官等規定第三點我們就是強化行政中立以及行為的紀律禁止"},{"start":269.639,"end":291.935,"text":"政務官罷工待職利用職權圖利特定的人士動用行政資源來編發宣傳品散佈不實的資訊或干預選舉以及選轉門條款等等這些規定第四法則透明化而且未來要監察與把關法律不能只是裝飾品所以本草案規定政務官如果違反兼職的"},{"start":292.856,"end":310.171,"text":"禁止行政中立或者是禁止行為未來將處罰兩萬到二十萬元等等不等的罰還那這些行政罰呢都同意由監察院來處罰並且公開於網路那麼讓公眾檢驗那麼在民主國家當中我們知道政務官譬如上市部長委員會還有這個大法官考監委員等等都扮演"},{"start":314.815,"end":334.015,"text":"至关重要的角色协助总统带领国家前进的方向所以手中的决策是会直接影响到全民的权利以及国家的未来发展那么建立制定政务人员法非不能也而是不为也所以本席认为说这部法必须要尽速的通过我们要让"},{"start":336.06,"end":351.996,"text":"這個所有的權力的行使者都能夠在法制的軌道上面運行要給建立一條清晰的紅線規定那草案的內容許多都可以建築在相關的這個法律規範之中所以在此也請各位委員還有社會大眾能夠支持好 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:1842.492,"end":1859.858,"text":"報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請法務部部長率所屬相關單位司法院副秘書長 經濟部 環境部國家發展委員會 臺灣電力股份有限公司就綠能弊案速貪成效 綠能發展之法制策進與防弊進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1861.338,"end":1886.652,"text":"三 邀請總統府秘書長 行政院秘書長 司法院法務部就立法院三讀通過之法律 經行政院依中華民國憲法增修條文第三條第二項 以請立法院附議經全體委員 經全體立法委員二分之一以上決議維持原案 行政院院長不依法附屬總統不依法公佈施行對我國憲政民主及法治之強害及相關法律責任之追究進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1888.353,"end":1889.174,"text":"請問各位 上次會議的議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":1911.613,"end":1935.046,"text":"好 如果沒有的話那麼我們議事錄就確定那接下來我先介紹到場的委員以及應邀列席的人員首先先介紹黃國昌委員還有羅志強委員那麼接著我介紹應邀列席的官員今天有考試院的劉建興秘書長權敘部的施能傑部長"},{"start":1936.536,"end":1962.007,"text":"法務部的正部長鄭明天正部長還有行政院人事行政總處的蘇仁市長謝謝那其餘未及介紹的列席代表就請參閱名單不再逐一的介紹並且列入公報記錄那麼本次的議程分別排定的是專題報告無差別攻擊犯罪事件的防治與良心檢討那以及"},{"start":1962.946,"end":1987.897,"text":"兩部法案 政務人員法草案等等兩部法案那麼會議進行的方式我們就採一併的報告然後綜合的詢答好 那麼現在我們就先進行提案說明及報告那首先進行提案的說明發言時間是三分鐘那這次提案的有翁曉琳委員還有羅志強委員分別進行提案說明"},{"start":1988.413,"end":2013.005,"text":"那麼我們是先請羅志強委員先請提案說明 謝謝主席 然後我們各位委員以及列席的官員民進黨從發起大罷免開始大家可以去看看有多少的部會"},{"start":2014.255,"end":2030.86,"text":"是為了配合大罷免利用行政資源造謠 洗地 下鄉宣講像是續產會的董事長蘇志芬頻繁的回到雲林去支持大罷免勞動部部長洪森漢"},{"start":2032.206,"end":2049.265,"text":"發文推動大罷免時間是11點44分的上班時間然後在11點49分被發布在勞動部的媒體群組引發社會爭議然後他說那是叫請假 他有請假"},{"start":2050.376,"end":2072.751,"text":"那這些模糊地帶之所以發生就是因為我國對於政務人員的行為沒有像公務人員一樣建立明確而有拘束力的規範導致部分的政務官服務的對象不是國家跟人民而是披著行政外衣實則替特定政長作戰的政治打手"},{"start":2073.888,"end":2098.287,"text":"政務人員是基於政治信任而受任掌握政策形成規劃跟決策的核心位置對人事預算跟行政方向具有重大的影響正因為政務人員的權力重大影響深遠所以更應該有清楚的行為準繩與法律邊界但是現行的法制對政務人員行為規範仍相當不足所以"},{"start":2099.088,"end":2112.99,"text":"本席不是第一個提出政務人員行為基準法的立委事實上過去在民國84年 98年 101年考試院也曾經提出相關的草案顯見各界都認同"},{"start":2114.552,"end":2130.321,"text":"當政務官掌握行政權力預算資源的時候如果沒有相對應的義務規範就容易將行政資源政治化讓國家治理被選舉算計取代讓人民對政府公信力產生懷疑"},{"start":2131.141,"end":2150.67,"text":"所以我們這次修法我的草案有三大方向第一個就是明確政務人員行為邊界要求在職務執行上必須維持公正與依法行政禁止政務人員濫用職權與行政資源介入政治活動不得影響他人的政治行為"},{"start":2151.71,"end":2167.922,"text":"不得在办公室时间替政党或候选人动员或助选第三个是命定责任与罚则机制确保法律具有实质拘束力本校重申行政机关应该是要服务人民不是服务某个政党"},{"start":2168.562,"end":2183.489,"text":"政務人員應該要守的是憲法跟法律不是政治任務清單而政務人員行為基準法是保障國家治理不被政治濫用保障專業行政不被政黨挾持更保障人民對政府的信任以上 謝謝"},{"start":2197.503,"end":2201.646,"text":"好 我們現在請提案人汪小玲委員提案說明各位委員 各位同仁大家早安"},{"start":2210.229,"end":2230.16,"text":"我國是針對不同的身份職業的人基本上都會頒布許多相關的法令包括行為規範倫理準則處罰規定懲戒法規等等譬如說我們像勞工有勞動基準法勞災法還有勞資增益處理法性別平等工作法等等"},{"start":2230.7,"end":2253.2,"text":"那公務人員呢他是代表國家行使公權力也受到嚴格的法律義務的約束相關的規定的更是不勝美舉像是我們有公務員服務法公務員懲戒法考機法保障法公務員行政中立法到公務人員的相關的任用條例等等那麼教師呢我們也有教師法還有這個教育人員任用條例"},{"start":2253.94,"end":2258.963,"text":"警察也有警察法也有警察人員認識條例那麼軍人則有陸海空軍刑法懲罰法還有軍人的這個任用條例等等那麼但是政務人員呢我們到目前為止我們沒有一部專法是去規範"},{"start":2270.851,"end":2290.188,"text":"政務人員的那麼除了我們待會會講到的政務人員的去職輔助條例好 那麼事實上立法院早在民國84年的時候當時就做成附帶決議要求考試院要將政務官要政務人員法要函送立法院審查那麼最近一次的政務人員"},{"start":2291.229,"end":2297.096,"text":"法案是在101年的時候送到立法院審議但是13年過去了我們看到這群權力龐大的決策者依然沒有一部專門的法律來規範他們的行為以及任免本心認為這是很奇怪的擁有巨大權力 龐大權力"},{"start":2313.093,"end":2333.32,"text":"還有分配資源的政務官卻沒有一部專法來規範我們目前對於政務官的權利義務的規範是相當自力破碎的而且是欠缺法源依據的那麼有關政務人員的任用薪水保障的規定大部分都是散落在不同的法規當中甚至有些只是行政命令法律效力未接不足像是這個政務人員的這個給予表"},{"start":2339.222,"end":2354.947,"text":"那其實它就是依照行政命令的位階來適用全國軍公教員工待遇知己要點那目前唯一的一部專屬正規人員的法典竟然是規定這些正規人員在退休之後怎麼領錢正規人員的退職撫恤條例像這種只管"},{"start":2359.409,"end":2379.286,"text":"退場領錢不管在場表現的法制漏洞不僅不利於政府的運作也難以回應公眾對於政務官紀律的期待尤其是近年來我們看到社會上屢次發生政務官行政不中立政治不中立甚至利用職權向大眾散佈不實"},{"start":2380.747,"end":2401.484,"text":"訊息的爭議那麼如果我們繼續任由這種制度的缺漏不僅會傷害文官體系的專業性更會動搖民主政治的根基那麼為了完備國家的法治落實責任政治所以本席在此呢特別提出這部政務人員法的草案那這部法的草案呢"},{"start":2402.728,"end":2423.679,"text":"本期基本上是參考這個過去考試院曾經向立法院提出的版本學者的建議以及現行相關的法規範的發展大致上分為四大重點第一個就是我們明確定義誰是政務官只要是總統任命立法院同意任命然後特調特派的人員以及民選地方行政首長等等都應該受到適度的規範第二個"},{"start":2425.18,"end":2449.996,"text":"就是建立嚴謹的退場以及考核機制只要是政務官表現不佳除了自行請辭往往只能靠政治責任下台所以本草案明確規定政務官未來如果有違法失職因案被羈押起訴或是因病無法執行職務超過半年類似像是陳菊院長這樣情況那麼上級機關就該予以免職此外為了杜絕利輸送我們也"},{"start":2450.416,"end":2467.165,"text":"增設了嚴格的消極資格譬如說曾經犯貪污內亂等等這些犯罪形態或是違反選罷法經過判刑確定的話就不能夠擔任政務官等規定第三點我們這是強化行政中立以及行為的紀律禁止"},{"start":2467.625,"end":2489.891,"text":"政務官罷工待職利用職權圖利特定的人士動用行政資源來編發宣傳品散佈不實的資訊或干預選舉以及選轉門條款等等這些規定第四法則透明化而且未來要監察與把關法律不能只是裝飾品所以本草案規定政務官如果違反兼職的"},{"start":2490.831,"end":2508.142,"text":"禁止行政中立或者是禁止行為未來將處罰兩萬到二十萬元等等不等的罰還那這些行政法呢都同意由監察院來處罰並且公開於網路那麼讓公眾檢驗那麼在民主國家當中我們知道政務官譬如像是部長委員會還有這個大法官考監委員等等都扮演"},{"start":2512.785,"end":2531.984,"text":"至关重要的角色协助总统带领国家前进的方向所以手中的决策是会直接影响到全民的权利以及国家的未来发展那么建立制定政务人员法非不能也而是不为也所以本席认为说这部法必须要尽速的通过我们要让"},{"start":2534.029,"end":2550.3,"text":"所有的权力的行使者都能够在法制的轨道上面运行要建立一条清晰的红线规定草案的内容许多都可以建筑在相关的法律规范之中所以在此也请各位委员还有社会大众能够支持好 谢谢"},{"start":2563.718,"end":2573.72,"text":"目前提案委員都已經說明完畢了那麼接下來我們就請機關代表報告那每位發言時間三分鐘首先我們先請考試院的劉晉熙秘書長報告"},{"start":2578.957,"end":2607.322,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安很榮幸今天在列席貴委員會就翁昭偉所拟據的政務人員法草案還有羅委員等拟據的政務人員行為基準法草案提出報告我想就如剛剛兩位委員所做的提案說明就這個我們政務人員法制的這個部分在過去這幾十年來有經過不同的階段跟一些轉折那的確一開始就是在民國84年的時候是在立法院在審查中央政府總預算的時候做出了一個附帶決議就要求考試院在"},{"start":2608.482,"end":2624.121,"text":"一年之內把政務官法送到立法院來審查所以考試院後來的確也在87年到101年的十多年當中五度把這個草案送到立法院來審議但是都沒有完成立法程序近年來大概在考試院第13屆跟14屆討論"},{"start":2625.623,"end":2654.045,"text":"是不是要繼續推動這個相關法案的時候就牽涉到跟行政院之間的權限爭議行政院也有表達說像這樣的草案是不是應該屬於考試院的權責還是應該是行政院的權責這的確我們在討論過程中有輔助這樣的議題那考試院就基於現在我們政務人員法制的事項雖然沒有一部專法但是它也散見在各相關法律當中也大致有所規範並不是完全沒有規範而且也執行起來也並沒有摯愛"},{"start":2655.186,"end":2681.844,"text":"那再加上本案的全責歸屬確實有爭論所以我們就請全序部暫緩推動來持續繼續持續跟這個相關機關來協調那這是有關這部法過去的討論的過程那今天會議即將討論幾份由這個委員所提出的草案呢那主要是希望來制定一部專法那就把現行散建在各其他法令當中的相關權利義務或行為分際的規範做一個整合和這個再精進"},{"start":2684.085,"end":2710.154,"text":"這個部分就規定的內容跟必要性我想我們會尊重貴委員會的討論但是對於說本法案要不要將考試院名定為本法的主管機關這個部分我想多做幾點說明第一個就是說其實多數的行政多數政務人員都是屬於行政體系不管中央或地方他的任命也大多數都有高度的政治性他跟考試院主管文官體制的權責的性質確實有相當的差別"},{"start":2711.054,"end":2735.867,"text":"第二個部分就是其實政務委員適用的相關法律像財產申報法或是利沖法等等其實也都並沒有明定主管機關這樣的條文第三就是目前草案當中其實有諸多的規定它分別要由行政院或考試院或監察院來分別主責法案內容涉及了不同院級機關的權責同時它也跟各院主管的相關法律有所連動跟重疊"},{"start":2736.707,"end":2750.134,"text":"所以本法是否應該明定考試員為主管機關有必要再請各位委員再多加斟酌那以上報告敬請委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝劉秘書長那我們接下來請群敘部的施部長報告 謝謝"},{"start":2757.109,"end":2783.209,"text":"主席各位很早我想部裡面對翁委員跟羅委員這個要新訂有關政務人員相關的法律一個看法剛剛我們秘書長大概大致上表達本部的一個立場我想主要還是要講是說有關政務人員目前從84年以後其實我們有很多新的法制也出現了包括中立法本來服務法要做一些修訂然後我們請假規則各式各樣都有修訂所以"},{"start":2783.829,"end":2809.581,"text":"相關的政務人員各式各樣的行為規範是擅見在不同的法律也包括剛剛講的財產申報法各式各樣的一個狀況所以確實是沒有一個把它彙整成一個專法所以有沒有制定這個專法的必要性這當然有見仁見智的一個看法那這部分我想委員有提案我們部裡面是尊重委員的一個提案那第二件事情主要還是要講是說即使是要定上這個專法"},{"start":2811.042,"end":2830.931,"text":"我想本部的立場是認為本部不是我想包括這個考試院不適合擔任這個法律的主管機關這個主要還是要講整個政務人員的概念政務人員基本上就是受民選行政首長的任命所以他是個高度政治性的職位進退是誰在民主政治的國家進退是誰"},{"start":2832.051,"end":2850.504,"text":"民選行政首長來自由任命所以這個部分並不是典型公務人員所以考試院根據憲法的執掌並不涉及政務人員所以我們並不認為這個適合由考試院來負責這樣一個事情當然最後我想還是要"},{"start":2852.526,"end":2865.782,"text":"任何涉及要新訂任何這些法律的特別是政務人員法律相關事宜的事情本部的資料會提出這個說明是說目前在台灣所有所謂政務人員的人數"},{"start":2867.143,"end":2889.013,"text":"他不是只有在中央政府其實地方政府所任命的那個政務人員的人數是遠高於中央政府那至於這個法律任何定一個法律條文到底是不是可行或者要怎麼務實我想地方的民選行政首長可能對這個法律如果可以提供給更多意見我想對法律是比較有幫忙的事情我想本部做以上一個建議 謝謝"},{"start":2891.906,"end":2897.179,"text":"好 謝謝施副部長那接下來我們請房屋部政部長報告"},{"start":2904.646,"end":2930.334,"text":"主席 各位委員今天奉邀就無差別攻擊犯罪事件防制其良形檢討及證務人員法草案證務人員行為基準法草案向各位委員報告首先就無差別攻擊事件防制以良形檢討專題報告部分那關於本案的一個處置案發後北檢立即指派檢查官成立專案小組指揮警察收證鑑識釐清犯罪動機等事項犯罪被害人保護協會在第一時間啟動即時關懷"},{"start":2932.734,"end":2951.463,"text":"的機制對死者家屬重傷被害人已經提供法律協助跟心理支持協助申請犯罪被害補償金後續將持續這類的一個相關的支持管理防治方面本部指示調查局加強行收強化網路巡查對網路出現的供給預告及時介入調查"},{"start":2952.603,"end":2973.861,"text":"本案發生後出現謀反的行為本部要求檢察機關採取即時發現積極偵辦快速偵辦的原則已經有14個地檢署偵辦此類案件並依法採取生壓暫時安置起訴的作為那台高建水成立督導的一個小組綜合全國偵辦的能量只要出現謀反行為一律重演從事的追"},{"start":2976.942,"end":2999.249,"text":"偵辦並發布新聞說明遏制危害公眾工企的事件因應歲末大型活動人潮聚集本部也則有聯政署政府體系全力配合各機關強化維安 確保公共安全無差別工企新聞惡性重大請抬高監督督導各地檢署就新法57條首例的犯罪動機目的等情況"},{"start":3000.109,"end":3027.06,"text":"提出具體的良心意見 如個案有良心不當依法提起上述究竟其實就政務人員法草案 政務人員行為基礎法草案審查部分管理政務人員適用的定義跟範圍那委員所提草案未排除司法人員大法官 最高法院院長最高行政法院院長 懲戒法院院長及最高檢察署檢察總長等司法人員但上次司法人員分別具有法官檢察官的身份"},{"start":3027.72,"end":3044.687,"text":"以國家職務關係 因受憲法直接規範的特別保障與政務人員與國家職務不同所以兩者不適合一體施用相同的規範又因憲法 法官法及相關法令已經對上次司法人員涉有特別的規範是否應將司法人員排除 嘗試換位 見請再酌"},{"start":3047.889,"end":3072.368,"text":"那文委員版以刑法跟刑事法同類第四條第二項這部分是否有體力的一個相符建請在座另外政治限刑法第28條就類似狀況已有行者規定且證物人員收受賄賂已有貪污自費條可之處罰未必免法律使用跌床只要建請審查事法能有重覆規定的一個必要"},{"start":3073.089,"end":3087.785,"text":"那其他草案的規定不能尊重相關主管機關的專利意見及大院的審理的結果以上報告請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝曾部長那我們接下來請人事行政總處的蘇俊榮市長報告 謝謝"},{"start":3099.095,"end":3113.469,"text":"今天本總署應邀列席貴委員會深感榮幸以下請就病案審查召集委員翁曉琳等人提及的政務人員法草案及羅志強委員提及的政務人員行為基準法草案進行檢驗報告"},{"start":3114.99,"end":3130.856,"text":"請各位委員指教考試院之前曾以八十七至一百零一年間五度會選行政院索尼的政務人員法草案橫送大院審議因為藉其不審議未完成立法最後前序部以一百零八年"},{"start":3131.996,"end":3154.783,"text":"再將手擬的政務人員法案函報考試院審查因考試院及行政院就政務人員法治事項尚需進一步討論又現行政務人員的任免行為規範潛力義務等相關事項已以公務人員任用法行政中立法及護法等定有相關規定實務運作尚無自礙所以會沒有再繼續推動"},{"start":3156.365,"end":3174.956,"text":"有關翁召偉及樓委員所提的草案版本本總署以原體書面報告 敬請各位委員參考至於各草案的條文內容本總署將以直條審查委員遵循意見時提供以上報告謝謝大家好謝謝董事長"},{"start":3180.578,"end":3207.656,"text":"那麼其餘提出的書面報告機關有沒有要口頭進行補充的或說明好 那麼沒有的話那麼我們機關代表的報告完畢那麼相關的書面內容請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄那麼接下來我們就開始進行詢答那本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時候得延長2分鐘那非本會委員詢答的時間為5分鐘並不再延長那上午10點半"},{"start":3208.823,"end":3213.888,"text":"截止發言登記那麼我們首先先請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席麻煩有請考試院秘書長法務部部長監察院今天的代表"},{"start":3236.966,"end":3262.145,"text":"麻煩幾位機關代表請到前面謝謝委員長針對今天所排審有關於翁曉琳委員跟羅志強委員所提出的政務人員法我先請代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團表達支持理由非常的簡單"},{"start":3263.556,"end":3290.025,"text":"過去在扁政府時期到馬政府時期兩度都曾經提出過政務人員法但是或許當初因為改革的決心不足或許對於一些政務人員相關的規範不想要用法律規範自己的行為導致沒有完成立法其實在立法院"},{"start":3291.484,"end":3296.616,"text":"觀察立法院裡面的運作就知道當你反對一部法律的時候"},{"start":3297.833,"end":3321.662,"text":"最好的方式從來都不是說我反對最好的方式就是說要再研議 再討論 再商量能拖就拖 能混就混時間過了就沒有關係現在有非常多的問題都反映出來為什麼這個政務人員法有必要我先從第一件事情開始請教一下考試院"},{"start":3323.46,"end":3348.338,"text":"陳菊院長從2024年12月請假她生病請假這個我覺得人之常情希望她能夠早日康復但是國家必須要有制度在國家的制度下我們目前的政務官請病假最長可以請多久現在是依照這個公務人請假的規定來處理但這個詳細的狀況"},{"start":3351.451,"end":3378.91,"text":"要部長還是要人事長誰法規比較熟誰上來回答根據請假規則應該這樣講他可以先把休假什麼請完以後然後兩年裡面最多可以就是說他可以先請他可以有兩應該這樣講兩年裡面可以有請到一年可以請到一年嘛那目前陳菊院長請假超過一年沒有"},{"start":3379.774,"end":3400.948,"text":"我的了解因為他是分年嘛因為今年還有明年今年應該還沒有那再叫明年那實際的個案要捐責案才具體的了解沒有啊 今年今年你講的是2025年嗎今年還沒有 還沒有他的今天幾號今年12月31號嘛今天12月31號去年12月就開始請了嘛他會把士兵價什麼都先扣掉嘛"},{"start":3402.755,"end":3421.107,"text":"所以還要繼續然後特休也要把它放進去嗎不是啊我是一個法律人我聽到這個我已經聽不下去了我為什麼聽不下去病假就病假試假就試假休假就休假"},{"start":3422.466,"end":3434.673,"text":"我跟委員報告他是之前先請他的休假先請他的病假所以他一開始去住院的時候是用釋假的名義去住院嗎是嗎具體的細節我不知道來 請監察院的代表假是怎麼請的"},{"start":3440.989,"end":3468.779,"text":"報告委員根據公務人員請假規則的規定是然後如果是說因為重大傷病非短期間所能治癒的部分的話他其實是在依規定可以在合給的病假試假及休假均請閉之後是總共加起來幾天兩年內可以就是請不得超過一年然後總共加起來的部分的話因為我們院長其實他工職資歷比較長所以他的那個休假的部分有30天所以總共加起來可以請幾天"},{"start":3470.103,"end":3496.897,"text":"如果是試駕並駕休假的部分的話一年原則上應該是可以先請65天所以他現在是一年加65天還要再等兩個月就對了是嗎因為去年他應該是12月請假嘛是吧去年12月底的時候因為這個新聞上都有去年12月底開始請假但是我們如果在114年的時候從1月開始的部分的話可以先請完他的試駕並駕休假之後"},{"start":3498.894,"end":3524.959,"text":"才會再請延長病假對 所以延長病假可以請到什麼時候全體國人很關心嘛我們台灣是法治國家嘛不要因人設事嘛全體國人很關心啊當然啦你如果說從政務人員自我要求的角度來講擔任這麼重要的政務人員超過一年沒有辦法上班還是決定不辭職"},{"start":3526.724,"end":3551.359,"text":"其實也是讓大家看了覺得不曉得該怎麼形容沒有關係每一個人有每一個人的政治選擇因為現在沒有政務人員法你如果按照2012年那一版的政務人員法的話這個就構成了必須要請辭的事由了但我們現在沒有政務人員法就沒有辦法每一個政務人員自己選擇自己去注意社會上面的觀感"},{"start":3553.51,"end":3561.965,"text":"大家現在看不懂的是監察院反正是肥貓院也沒有什麼關係有沒有院長也沒有什麼差別"},{"start":3564.042,"end":3586.156,"text":"所以呢我們在規範這麼重要的問題竟然是回到了公務人員請假規則公務人員請假規則明明生病是病假但沒有關係我們從寬認定試假也可以其他假也可以全部假全部都累積起來沒有關係所以全部的假累積起來什麼時候會期滿現在沒有辦法回答沒有關係會後書面回覆可以嗎"},{"start":3594.293,"end":3613.079,"text":"這個我們可以回覆說我們都是依規定會讓就是說就是都是依規定請假的部分所以說我們今年度基本上市併休請完明年也是會是市併休請完之後然後在兩年內不得延長一年的狀況之下然後請沒有啦依法不就一年嗎怎麼聽你現在講起來要請兩年喔"},{"start":3619.6,"end":3633.949,"text":"這個部分的話因為我們其實是都是依照請假規則的規定在做請假公務人員也都是這樣子沒有關係啊你們是不是有按照規則大家看在眼裡啊我們繼續往下看現在陳菊請假嘛黃士卓出任監察院秘書長誰挑選決定的誰決定的"},{"start":3643.551,"end":3672.114,"text":"這個是我們院有經過那個知情總統同意對啊誰就是誰決定的是總統決定的還是現在代理院長決定的這個你沒辦法回答好啊監察院另外一位代表有辦法回答嗎直接由總統決定嗎所以是你們簽公文上去嗎你們完全沒有簽公文上去"},{"start":3675.573,"end":3687.483,"text":"不好意思你們兩個現在回答不太一致你們有簽公文給總統說要請黃士卓出任監察院秘書長嗎有嗎所以給總統的那個建請的那個之文任命黃士卓是誰蓋章的本院代理院長嗎"},{"start":3704.346,"end":3732.427,"text":"依照監察院組織法的規定祕書長由誰挑選決定依照監察院組織法的規定祕書長由誰挑選決定你們回去看一下法規嚴格啦我實在真的是大開眼界"},{"start":3733.689,"end":3759.471,"text":"自己對自己組織法裡面主管的法規可以不熟成這個樣子沒有關係不為難你們你們都是專業優秀的事務官我為什麼會提這個問題出來找一個發表不實言論抹黑人家被判刑有罪確定的人我先不管他黨派色彩夠不夠找一個被判有罪確定的人"},{"start":3760.768,"end":3784.519,"text":"然後要長監察院的秘書長要整治關真他先整治他自己的關真吧他先整治他自己的關真吧任用這麼重要的位置現在已經是沒有標準了啦也不用考慮社會觀感院長請假超過一年沒有關係"},{"start":3786.502,"end":3814.157,"text":"找一個被判刑有罪確定的人來當秘書長也沒有關係因為這個地方社會對他已經沒有期待這個地方社會對他已經沒有期待要養什麼人 塞什麼人 當政治疏洪道就是現在監察院存在的目的李敬義 林玉榮 蘇利窮 王榮章違法濫用公務車"},{"start":3817.165,"end":3844.165,"text":"去年六月移送紀律委員會用最快的速度處理到九月的時候沒有處理那時候監察院來找我拜託我支持他們的預算給他們一點錢能夠做一些活動我那個時候扛著政治壓力我點頭了我說好好做好好做你們的覆密跟我說九月份會處理"},{"start":3846.292,"end":3855.696,"text":"處理到現在10月的時候紀律委員會完成調查報告10月份會審議審議的結果為後續的處理審議完了沒有審議完了沒有還要審議多久沒有關係啊所以就要攤開來給社會大眾看嘛"},{"start":3877.586,"end":3905.848,"text":"讓全台灣人看一看嘛什麼叫做官官相護嘛什麼叫官官相護嘛回去轉告代理院長以及副秘書長我這個人可以被你騙一次但我絕對不會被騙第二次今年九月的時候在這邊協商你們的追加預算的時候"},{"start":3907.23,"end":3934.601,"text":"你們的副秘書長是怎麼跟我拍胸脯保證的9月一定會處理處理到現在12月啦處理到現在12月啦錢騙到了以後能拖就拖 能混就混上下交鄉賊 大家一起胡搞瞎搞這個國家還有什麼關鍵啊"},{"start":3936.879,"end":3960.68,"text":"這國家還有什麼關鍾啊來 請考試院我上一次說我成立了國發基金調查委員會的時候我是很認真在做調查我還寫了大概是本院少有的國發基金調查委員會的調查報告書那份調查報告書我寫了非常的久"},{"start":3961.857,"end":3990.657,"text":"以前成立什麼調閱小組大概都虎頭蛇尾連一個調閱報告都沒有我花了很久的時間寫調查報告書其中有一段是這個國發基金自己的執行長執行秘書在掌理這麼重要的國發基金要投資哪一家公司這麼重要的事情結果自己退休了以後跑去他決定要投資的那家公司當董事"},{"start":3991.653,"end":4020.018,"text":"這是什麼跟什麼明確的違反了公務員服務法第16條的規定當我說明確違反公務員服務法第16條規定的時候國發基金 國發會很會趕快幫忙找黨建牌法條的文藝如此的明確公務員與其離職後三年內不可以擔任與其離職前五年內職務直接相關的盈利事業董事"},{"start":4021.664,"end":4038.89,"text":"國發基金的執行秘書參與審議決定要投資那家公司結果離職後馬上去那家公司當董事公務員服務法白紙黑字寫得這麼清楚你不用用什麼目的解釋體系解釋 歷史解釋"},{"start":4041.155,"end":4058.497,"text":"不用用那麼複雜的法律解釋的方法我一解釋看就知道了當然是違反公務員服務法16條結果我們的國發基金膽子好大趕快幫忙脫罪脫罪的方法是什麼找你們選區部以前的一個韓式"},{"start":4061.812,"end":4082.877,"text":"說國發基金投資完全不是用公務員服務法旋轉門的條款我上一次質詢的時候我也跟你們解釋過你們過去的那個函式有多荒謬有多荒謬 按照你們那個函式你們那個考試院的函式現在荒謬成什麼變成公務員服務法16條的後門條款"},{"start":4086.226,"end":4106.774,"text":"用一個絕對錯誤的函式來架空公務員服務法16條的規定我請你們回去承諾檢討那你們檢討完了也回來給我不過你們寫得很好你們是補充說明 是吧不是更正 是補充說明所以是更正還是補充說明"},{"start":4111.731,"end":4127.959,"text":"應該是更正喔所以在你們更正前那就沒有辦法啦就被他逃掉啦是是這個態度嗎來來來你們選區部的函發的是什麼再補充如說明你們告訴我的是補充嘛那現在看起來到底是補充還是更正"},{"start":4141.204,"end":4155.559,"text":"我想我們部裡的態度就是我們本來有一個舊的韓式不夠完整 也謝謝委員的指教所以我們就把它再召開各機關來討論所以你認為你們過去所謂不完整的韓式到時候"},{"start":4156.5,"end":4171.191,"text":"有人去告發他違反公務員服務法16條你認不認為你們那個不完整的韓式會拿來被犯罪嫌疑人作為抗辯的室友所以我就按照考試院的韓式啊考試院的韓式說這樣做沒有問題啊"},{"start":4172.802,"end":4181.494,"text":"我想跟委員報告 我想任何的訴訟最後都是法院會去做裁判那法院會不會幫新的一個...對啊 但問題是為什麼會出來這個東西為什麼會出現這個問題這個問題一開始就不應該出現嘛"},{"start":4190.396,"end":4219.401,"text":"為什麼在追溯違反公務員服務法16條的道路上會出現了一個在規範上面本來根本就不應該存在的障礙事由不就是你們考試院創造出來的嗎我想各位明白因為那時候我雖然不在部聯不過我可以理解那時候因為對政府可能對投資這個部分還沒有很多的這一方面那時候是在採購跟營價為主所以我想當初有一個背景所以呢"},{"start":4219.96,"end":4245.359,"text":"所以我們因為新的一個發展形勢變更 謝委員的指正新的發展形勢 你講的好像是2025年我們政府才開始投資一樣從舊的韓式 到現在考試院有停止運作過嗎?全序部有停止運作過嗎?沒有啊沒有啊你說要因應時代的需要對啊"},{"start":4246.345,"end":4275.272,"text":"你們就你們所長的業務有因應時代的需要嗎有切合現實的需要嗎因為你們這個韓式幫這種可恥的行為創造了法規上的障礙這個就是我今天要講的當然是法院最後認定嘛那法官想說人家就按照選區部的韓式啊國發基金也幫他脫罪啊怎麼會有問題"},{"start":4279.329,"end":4303.813,"text":"結果選區部幹的不是好好的在貫徹公務員服務法16條應該要求的標準是在幫忙開後門讓人大開眼界大開眼界這個案子最後進入了司法程序以後會怎麼處理我們拭目以待看我今天在這邊預測的你們幫這種可恥的行為開了後門我講的對還不對"},{"start":4314.571,"end":4315.896,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員那麼接下來我們請陳培芸委員發言"},{"start":4335.916,"end":4364.554,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那先我想先說好了 主席我就先不請相關部會主席今天排的這個案子其實主要是主席想要談自己想要修的這個政務人員基準法草案還有政務人員法草案可是我想要提出一個問題太好了 吳宗憲委員你到場了我記得吳宗憲委員也有提案可是我在今天的排案當中一 我沒有看到吳委員的提案我也不知道為什麼"},{"start":4365.254,"end":4380.045,"text":"再來如果我們看現在排在委員會裡面的羅志強等人還有翁小玲等人的相關法案我必須要說它是一個大雜匯雜到其實有非常多前後矛盾的地方可能連兩位委員的辦公室的助理都沒有發現還是說"},{"start":4381.846,"end":4396.403,"text":"刻意的要把它變成一個完全沒有章法完全沒有辦法有行政配套也完全沒有辦法讓相關機關好好執行的大雜匯的法案導致如果這個法在在野黨強力表決通過之下"},{"start":4397.384,"end":4421.347,"text":"那之後所有現在坐在這邊的行政機關都會非常的頭痛所以我今天一大早來看了所有相關部會的報告我也非常的納悶而且相關部會其實都已經指出今天在委員會裡面想要討論這兩個法案大雜燴到什麼程度呢一看起來這個法案來自於非常多現行的很多法案包含第一個公務人員行政中立法"},{"start":4421.707,"end":4447.069,"text":"第二個公務員服務法第三個公職人員選舉罷免法甚至我們還有相關的請假規則選罷法相關的事情可是看起來翁委員或者是羅志強委員就看到影子就開槍他覺得只要跟公務人員有關跟政務人員有關跟他們想要攻擊的特定政務人員有關他們就拿起來放在相關的法令裡頭所以我要說我感到非常非常的遺憾"},{"start":4448.177,"end":4462.445,"text":"自詡為法律專家法律學者教授的主席竟然安排像這樣的法案甚至自己也提了相關的法案我想身為司法法治的委員我在這邊快要一年了我要說每一個主題大家都可以花力氣討論"},{"start":4463.445,"end":4481.188,"text":"每一個在意的個案也有機會變成通案的考量來讓所有的國人對所有的政務人員更有信心而且大家不要忘記了政務人員不是只有來自中央政府有政務人員地方縣市首長一旦新上任之後他也有非常多政務人員需要派任"},{"start":4481.829,"end":4503.496,"text":"所以你以為你可以攻擊到誰你以為你可以打擊到誰但不要忘記了這個法一旦施行它所適用的不是只有中央政府機關它還有地方政府機關所以我還是要再一次嚴正的表達我的遺憾我真的不知道自詡為法學教授的主席為什麼要拼湊出一個大雜燴荒謬無旦"},{"start":4505.897,"end":4527.913,"text":"荒謬至極而且我認為所有的行政機關再次強調不是只有中央所有地方政府也會非常難以實施我等一下會根據這個部分再跟相關部會討論但是在開始這個專題報告的質詢之前我要先提出這個嚴正的抗議我要拜託主席拜託召委不要浪費自己召委排案的機會非常非常的可惜"},{"start":4528.653,"end":4549.769,"text":"那我想我還是要針對無差別攻擊事件喔做出一些我個人的討論第一個 我想要相關的適者至上撫慰的心情我要說哀悼 謝謝我罵人罵得太生氣了 好我真的看到這個主題 我真的看到這個主題非常的排暗的部分 好"},{"start":4552.771,"end":4569.746,"text":"所有關於這些事情我想國人都希望不要再發生但是我要講的是朱熹很希望談所謂的量刑這件事情我知道相關的輿論跟新聞也有很多的國人在關心可是我們光就今天這個個案來看因為這個人他現在已經死亡了"},{"start":4570.326,"end":4581.758,"text":"所以那他已經死了所以我想相關量刑很難討論可是大家可能接下來會關心的是那未來假設還有相關無差別攻擊事件我們會怎麼討論量刑那這個部分是不是可以請相關機關法務部來討論一下好不好來"},{"start":4592.625,"end":4611.114,"text":"好部長您辛苦了部長我如果沒有記錯的話在相關事件之後由政委已經召開跨部會的會議那我想法務部應該也參與其中那關於現在國人關心量刑的部分不知道法務部這邊有什麼看法跟主張關於這個無差別社會攻擊我們就聽一聽部長這邊的看法"},{"start":4612.978,"end":4631.512,"text":"這個的確是我們在第一時間我們就成立的專案小組 是那另外我們也非常就是注意會不會有擴散的一個效果所以我們除了台高檢有組那個一個獨島小組各地檢有那個一個應變的一個小組加強查緝那目前我們是採的態度就是"},{"start":4633.633,"end":4648.443,"text":"即時的發現機器查辦快速的一個偵辦那目前我們已經起訴了已經有五件了那另外已經有羈押了13人了據保9件那有相關的案件有37件 被告有35名"},{"start":4649.784,"end":4671.464,"text":"那這部分我們是有依據就是我們為了預防這一種的一個案件我們有督導那個調查局這部分要跟警政署來做一個加強的一個行收另外我們網路的巡邏的一個機制避免產生魔網的一個效應那另外這部分檢查這部分我剛才已經報告過了"},{"start":4673.706,"end":4701.061,"text":"那這個就求刑的這部分這的確要具體的一個求刑這個是惡性狀這嚴重違反社會治安的案件我們會依照相關的一個我們頒布的一些行政法規包括那個提示檢查運用求刑的引起注意事項檢查機關辦理刑事訴訟案件引起注意事項以及檢查機關辦理重大刑案的注意事項來具體來求重刑我們非常擔心壓制這一種的這些的行為"},{"start":4701.681,"end":4728.388,"text":"是而且包含還有模仿犯的部分剛剛法務部長這邊也提到了所以我想國人在關心的部分法務部應該已經注意到了那我們就期待你們除了收集社會輿情之外也在相關合理的法規範當中我們讓這些模仿犯也好或者是我們都希望後續不要再發生相關案件來謝謝法務部接下來有請內政部應該是民政司吧我們要來談一下關於小局書的問題來謝謝"},{"start":4731.029,"end":4758.968,"text":"在第一時間我們看到劉部長他已經說未來在小局處的內容會進行改版就是增加對於暴力的襲擊事件或是關於恐怖攻擊事件的指引必須要予以肯定那我這個部分非常感謝內政部做出非常快速跟及時的回應那同時我們要提醒其實在相關的新聞事件當中我們看到例如說像那個地下街的相關咖啡店他們就第一時間把門拉下來但是我想應該是這個個別的工作人員他有意識到這件事情他可能本來就有這個嘗試"},{"start":4760.129,"end":4786.048,"text":"有这个能力做出这个应变但是是不是其他的公共区域的商家店家或者是一般我们在公共场域当中的路人去逛街的人去在外面公共场域的人他们也有这个意识那我想后续小局书在改版的部分你们是不是也会再增加这个部分因为小局书的整个制作内容是属于全动数的业务那这个部分我们会帮忙跟全动数做反映好OK可是所以不跟你们内政部有关"},{"start":4786.83,"end":4809.942,"text":"內政部當然有做一些協助的部分包括發放然後還有宣講的部分那就拜託如果在我們還來不及改版內容之前因為我知道內政部即將開啟全台灣的巡迴講座對嗎關於這個小局數的部分那是不是就拜託內政部在相關的活動現場做講座的時候也把這個部分先放進來然後後續內容改版的部分我們也會再持續追蹤好嗎我們納入演繹"},{"start":4811.243,"end":4817.138,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來看一下警政署 來 警政署辛苦了警政署有來嗎有喔 好 謝謝"},{"start":4822.731,"end":4846.901,"text":"你就邊走 我邊說好了我們節省時間警政署的部分我想其實國人都會關心關於警察的設備尤其第一時間有很多人在說提高見警率尤其是今天開始今天下午開始很多年輕人可能不只年輕人很多人都要到跨年的現場全台灣有三十幾場相關的跨年活動 對嗎你們這邊警力部署的狀況可不可以跟大家報告一下目前現在就是"},{"start":4850.243,"end":4872.311,"text":"包括今天的跨年跟明天的延長總共大概目前比較大型的有37場那這部分我們有各縣市的我們警察局包括我們的同仁還有會運用民力來協助協請那相關的勤務的部署大概都在進行"},{"start":4872.799,"end":4888.314,"text":"那我們也有警政署也派高層去到各個警察局去做督情務必要把這個請問的進行能夠部署能夠嚴密來確保整個活動進行的一個安全好 我想這邊還是要想"},{"start":4889.034,"end":4902.029,"text":"先向所有在這兩天要出勤的不管是基層員警或是剛剛您說的高層的警官到現場去協助督導確保相關業務可以順利然後確保人民的安全我想這邊要先向所有的警務人員說聲謝謝因為"},{"start":4903.991,"end":4933.283,"text":"在歡樂大家在放假大家在跟家人朋友相聚的時候是你們先犧牲了假期你們先犧牲了自己的歡樂時間先為國人貢獻這個部分要先感謝但我想後續一定有很多人一定跟你們提到了關於警察人力的問題關於警察設備服裝相關的問題或者是見警率要提高之後那其他的警務工作有非常多平常就在進行的瑣碎警務工作後續的調配應該也會是你們很頭痛的部分可不可以關於這個部分簡單的回答一下"},{"start":4933.723,"end":4951.329,"text":"包委員 這個部分我們有在從事件發生以後有陸陸續續在進行包括一個勤務現場的處置然後後來的人力的一個禁用還有包括裝備的一個採購這個部分我們也一直在做一個"},{"start":4953.437,"end":4975.975,"text":"在做整備上的一個檢討這個已經在推動好 這個相關的報告再麻煩給我們辦公室一份關於人力的部分關於設備或者是相關服勤的班次的規劃因為其實也有很多來自警戒退休的人其實也提出一些建議提高監警率可能只能安定民心可是就於維持治安來說可能還會有不同的反效果但因為時間有限我們可以之後再來討論我們會再跟你們要相關報告好嗎是"},{"start":4980.4,"end":4983.065,"text":"好 謝謝接下來這個部分就先跳過好了"},{"start":4984.871,"end":5010.907,"text":"這個部分先跳過我想要講一個很重要的事情我們看到事發之後第一時間台北市新北市諮商跟臨床心理師公會他們就發了一個聯合安心指引希望讓民眾在看到相關的新聞如果要避免自己的焦慮到底可以做哪些事情除了少看新聞之外停止傳播安心生活指南還有彼此關心的安定力量這個部分是來自民間專業社團的協助我們要再次感謝所有心理師給國人的協助"},{"start":5012.328,"end":5039.349,"text":"接下來要看很可惜今天主席沒有請到他們就是衛福部其實第一時間政委開啟緊急會議的時候衛福部第一時間被邀請進到跨部會的專業會議當中衛福部在第一時間就說要提供給三次免費心理諮商不管國人你當時有沒有在現場只要你因為覺得你自己受到這個新聞事件的傳播所受到影響影響你自己的心理穩定性那"},{"start":5040.43,"end":5069.09,"text":"就開始提供三次的免費心理諮商可能很少人注意到這個事情然後就連我們的主席都沒有邀請到衛福部來很可惜但我想沒有關係我們還是要再次提醒國人而且這個是不限年紀不限有沒有在場都要持續提供三次的免費心理諮商這個部分我也想要藉由今天的質詢再次感謝衛福部雖然他們沒有來我們也呼籲國人如果你在相關事件感受到焦慮感受到不安都可以用這個衛福部的相關免費心理諮商好"},{"start":5069.91,"end":5073.602,"text":"那最後我想要談今天的法案這邊就要有請考試院辛苦了來謝謝祕書長"},{"start":5078.548,"end":5104.45,"text":"好 民主黨我想要就三個問題跟您請教我就一併問你再一併回答好嗎好來我剛一剛開始我就已經破題了關於今天要修這個政務人員法或者是羅自強委員提案的版本我都說它是一個大雜燴怎麼說呢關於主管機關的部分我記得之前行政院就有表示過如果有政務人員相關的辦法專法要修法的時候主管機關不應該是考試院行政院有表達過相關立場應該要是行政院所以"},{"start":5104.89,"end":5134.33,"text":"但是现在的版本还是写考试院我等一下想要请您表达意见第二个在第八条当中有提到这个写法我觉得非常的特殊他说政务人员提名或者是任命之前各个机关要办理品德跟忠诚的查核必要的时候呢应恰请有关机关协助办理涉及国安或重大利益的时候还要办理特殊查核我就先不要问查核的办法我就问一个基本逻辑就好了秘书长你听听看"},{"start":5134.93,"end":5149.058,"text":"明年2026即將有地方大選各個縣市大家都卯足了勁很多候選人就開始努力了可是地方上的縣市首長要輪替了例如說台中的盧秀燕市長她即將要卸任了換新的市長假設現在"},{"start":5150.419,"end":5165.247,"text":"整個台中市已經確定提名的是何新淳我就以何新淳委員舉例假設何新淳委員他選上了當台中市長那他就要選任一批政務人員陪他進到市府裡面開始為台中市民服務 對嗎可是如果按照這個辦法 這個寫法"},{"start":5166.488,"end":5192.534,"text":"那難道何新淳委員何新淳市長他未來要提名的政務人員的名單要交給盧秀燕市長去做審核嗎做品德查核嗎做忠誠查核嗎這個很奇怪又或者是新北市侯友宜市長即將卸任現在只有提名確定的蘇巧慧委員他的政務人員的名單一樣要交給侯友宜嗎因為主管機關到時候就只剩下前任的縣市長了不是嗎"},{"start":5193.274,"end":5215.625,"text":"他更不可能交到中央來這就是我剛剛破題的時候所說的翁委員或是羅委員在提案的時候完全沒有意識到他們可能本來只想針對特地人員特定案件但他完全沒有想到相關的配套或是當中央跟地方各自分工各自有業務要執行的時候就會遇到了困難所以我剛剛舉的是兩個非常荒謬的例子當然你可以再告訴我其他例子可是我要說從這兩個荒謬例子才可以凸顯我剛剛說這兩個法現在大雜燴之荒謬之混亂的狀況"},{"start":5222.828,"end":5239.149,"text":"第三個第18條關於關於辭職的部分其實剛黃國昌委員也講了因離病致無法執行職務逾六個月我認為這是非常針對性的寫法明明在相關的公務人員辦法裡面請假辦法裡面就已經有相關的辦法為什麼還要在這裡多寫上一條"},{"start":5239.77,"end":5252.638,"text":"我光是就這其中三條關於主管機關關於品德跟忠誠的查核還是還有關於離病的這個部分影響了非常多相關政務人員的權利我覺得非常非常的荒謬這邊以上請秘書長一起回答謝謝"},{"start":5254.206,"end":5270.459,"text":"謝謝 我就簡短中後回答就是說我剛剛舉的那個例子現實上是有可能發生的政治實務上因為很多任命或者是宣布任命常常是在就職前這個就是政治屬性在政務官層是政治屬性上會發生的事這個條文的原"},{"start":5271.62,"end":5298.366,"text":"原來的應該是來自於我們任用法那它因為它本來是對文官的規範那在對文官任用之前進行相關查核這個比較不是執行上比較沒有問題但是如果是對政務人員的部分的話它比較就會有委員剛剛講那個例子那現實上的確會有這樣的類似的狀況不管地方或中央那所以這個也就是回答委員第一個問題就是說考試院本來任用法是文官的法制"},{"start":5299.887,"end":5321.583,"text":"這個相關的部分如果把它應用在政務人員身上的話因為它的屬性就會差別很大才會有剛剛委員舉例的那樣的狀況所以它的確不太適合有考試院來主管因為考試院是比較文官法制屬性的一個機關政務官的確是高度的政治性尤其這裡面還包含了民選政治首長還有所有民選政治首長任命的政務人員"},{"start":5322.844,"end":5345.635,"text":"你講那個第三個部分這部分我覺得可能會變成是說有些法條如果不是那麼的明確的話最後也會出現各說各話比如說責任歸屬是不是有達到所謂廢持職務或者是誰在廢持職務的一些權限爭議的問題這個也有可能會變成可能是不一定在限制上有辦法去做明確的認定以上"},{"start":5346.311,"end":5362.394,"text":"好我想最後我就再做一個結論不管是我剛剛隨便舉出來這三條多麼的荒謬我要再次拜託主席拜託羅志強委員我剛羅志強委員你剛還沒有來我就再講一次所有這些你們現在提案的版本根本就是一個大雜燴在相關的辦法裡面其實都已經有了"},{"start":5362.674,"end":5386.163,"text":"那各自的規範如果委員們覺得有不足其實關於部分條文都可以去修正就好了而不是在立出一個荒謬期非常荒謬的專法而且我剛說是大雜燴到底是適用於文官還是適用於政務人員可能委員們自己都還沒有想得很清楚就只是想要針對個案去做攻擊所以我最後一個荒謬的例子再請秘書長告訴我對不對就像當年馬英九總統要卸任的時候是小英總統要接棒"},{"start":5386.923,"end":5396.97,"text":"那難道小英總統的政務官派任相關的查核要交給馬英九政府來決定嗎這非常非常的荒謬所以拜託所有的委員請踩下煞車 以上謝謝謝謝祕書長接下來我們請那個吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":5419.426,"end":5442.023,"text":"麻煩部長還有理聽長請部長還有聽長兩個部長是鄭部長嗎還是對 鄭部長兩位早安我想今天還是依據我們的今天的主題來去討論我想"},{"start":5445.916,"end":5462.941,"text":"今天到底社會安全網是哪裡破了一個洞讓風險一直流到高人流群的這個地方我先引用一個警察他有一個在網路上面一個貼文他說每次出事高層震怒媒體追打基層背鍋"},{"start":5465.041,"end":5490.173,"text":"那警察變成是這個每次行政漏洞或政治公關的止痛藥每次警察都是這樣這我很能夠理解因為以前我也看過都是這樣出事就推給警察但是我還是蠻希望說法務部在治安上面你們還是要做一個整合跨部會的整合從制度面著手因為我國目前不是雙偵查主體我國目前是單一偵查主體所以警察官"},{"start":5491.013,"end":5491.113,"text":"這部分"},{"start":5517.871,"end":5546.007,"text":"這部分我們有責請那個因為這個獄警的話我想我們自治法警察就有調查局我們跟那個警政署做一個聯訪做一個聯訪的一個機制來加強一個刑事的一個說法跟分析當然這些我們會做一個網路的一個巡查的一個機制如果說有網路或社群媒體有發現有這種此類的當然我們要趕緊去好 謝謝部長這個我在你們報告對 杜王志報告裡面是這樣講但是"},{"start":5546.787,"end":5569.425,"text":"現在還有一個問題就是說北車這次的張文或是之前的鄭捷其實他們都是社交孤立的人他們的個性他不會在Thread或是Facebook上面去寫說我要殺人讓你抓所以我們今天花了大筆人力譬如說吊牙站的人力傻去網路上面抓人但是會不會反而放任的炸彈客在社區遊蕩"},{"start":5570.986,"end":5591.914,"text":"這個其實有一點是像在路燈底下找鑰匙就是哪邊比較亮就比較好交差但是真正的核心問題並沒有處理到所以這是我第一個我要跟部長說明的你們的報告裡面提到說這個網路預警系統這個要做沒錯但是這個不會是很主軸因為你看張文你看鄭捷這兩個轟動社會的這兩個人"},{"start":5594.875,"end":5619.408,"text":"其實他們的社交他不會去做這些事所以你只著重在網路這是一個很大的問題所以我今天的訴求很簡單就是我希望說怎麼樣整合警政跟衛福部的資訊來把這個社會安全網把它建立起來你們的報告午夜我看了半天其實我還是沒有看到怎麼去接住社會的這些被漏接的這群人所以防務部你想如果今天我們的家人"},{"start":5620.528,"end":5643.924,"text":"每天要搭捷運去通勤那你會不會很害怕會不會又有這種事情發生會不會又有模仿犯發生還有提高見景率我覺得這個東西這個是行政院這句話其實是沒有任何意義的話這只是短時間讓人民安心事實上它對於預防犯罪的用處其實沒有那麼大更何況你社區或是定點的巡邏"},{"start":5644.804,"end":5662.59,"text":"那這個要做壞事的人就避開你就好你走過去之後我再幹就好了而且增加見景率它會排擠掉其他辦案的人力一樣你會導致其他的問題發生會不會因此而導致一個家暴案件的法案就這樣漏失掉這也是我們擔心所以我要跟部長說明一個"},{"start":5663.67,"end":5681.632,"text":"我這邊有一份106年法務部司法官學院花了109萬的納稅錢9年前他有做了一份報告陌生者兼隨機殺人犯罪特性防治對策他有說明到一個點而且引用非常多國外的案例他說得很清楚"},{"start":5682.593,"end":5698.406,"text":"兇手大多不是精神病患而且前科紀錄表命中率高達73%這是法務部的報告我想部長您很忙應該沒有時間但是我這邊跟你直接把一些重點講出來他們是針對221名在監殺人犯去做研究在針對其中15名屬於隨機殺人犯"},{"start":5701.656,"end":5720.367,"text":"的資料跟政府的四大資料庫比對包括第一個有沒有讀書這跟教育系統有關第二個有沒有看精神科這跟衛政系統有關第三個是不是高風險家庭這跟社政系統有關第四個有沒有錢哥這跟司法系統有關所以哪一個最能夠提前抓到這些人我們看到你們的報告裡面寫"},{"start":5722.031,"end":5751.14,"text":"最高的是刑事前科命中率高達73%連那個精神科就醫記錄只有60%的兇手有記錄但是刑事前科有73%的人在裡面都查得到也就是說四個隨機殺人犯裡面有三個在殺人之前其實早就有前科記錄了也就是躺在櫃部的資料庫裡面前科表就有部長您對這部分你有什麼想法這邊我們再來瞭解"},{"start":5752.02,"end":5777.066,"text":"好吧 那副部長之前不知道這個是你們9年前就已經做出來的報告所以我要跟你們說明一下刑事政策是法務部在管我們是單一偵查主體那民國94年法務部自己就已經說完成刑事資料智慧查詢系統提升檢察官辦案效能所以這個東西你們不能再推責任那這次我還看了一下那個國土安全部的那個報告也很不及格"},{"start":5777.426,"end":5797.697,"text":"他說要加強國人的防衛意識我覺得這句話等於把問題丟給國人還是說我要加強國人的防衛意識所以我要再印小局書2.0版去要預算是不是這樣所以國土安全部的國土安全辦公室的這份報告等於是沒有報告"},{"start":5799.798,"end":5825.84,"text":"我還是跟部長說明一下就像我剛說的你們的報告已經說明了73%的隨機殺人的人犯裡面他已經有刑事前科的紀錄也就是說這些資料是躺在你們那裡的那你們是不是可以用這份資料去勾結其他譬如說衛福部譬如說教育部等等的資料去弄清楚誰是高風險的犯者不然你不能說"},{"start":5827.081,"end":5845.417,"text":"這個刑事資料庫你在掌握你有GPS結果你還在路邊瞎子摸象搞不清楚狀況是怎麼樣部長能夠從前科表就能夠去預防很多事情包括像其他那些隨機殺人犯部長對這部分你有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":5846.097,"end":5873.571,"text":"我想這個是前科範一定是現在進入到更生的階段或保護管束的一個階段甚至是已經都結束了那這邊我們會請檢察機關在執行反起訴或者是保護管束的階段顯化關乎人跟司法保護職工對高風險個案的一個認識跟輔導做心理一個輔導我們希望在輔導這些的更生朋友或者這些的反起訴的這些的一個一個被告或者這些保護管束這些的"},{"start":5875.132,"end":5880.882,"text":"更生人這部分能夠跟社會的安全環境做一個銜接然後就輔導他們做一個更生這樣啦 我跟你講"},{"start":5886.534,"end":5913.37,"text":"雖然張文他不是那種重大前科的前科犯但是他是通緝犯對不對他是通緝犯嘛他是拿來兵役通緝犯對 他是通緝犯那我們看刑事訴訟法87條甚至通緝犯檢察官是可以抓的對不對刑事訴訟法87條嘛這個訴訟法有規定是司法警察當然檢察如果說甚至有利害關係也可以逮捕"},{"start":5915.598,"end":5941.691,"text":"好啦 那個 反正部長你去看一下新宿送87條其實通緝犯是檢察官以及司法警察都可以去逮捕的人所以你不能說跟檢方沒有關跟法務部沒有關我再跟你講張文雖然他是那個防衛兵役的前科不是那種什麼暴力犯罪等等的那種但是他至少他是個通緝犯他並不是說你沒有辦法去勾結出來他可能是有高危險犯罪的這個問題"},{"start":5943.012,"end":5968.385,"text":"更何況我也覺得很奇怪他還可以在外面租房子他還可以去住旅館這個都需要登記的結果後來都沒有人發現他這其實讓我滿匪夷所思的一個問題而且其實我國通緝犯滿街爬爬照但我也不知道為什麼就是抓不到當然什麼時候最會抓就村安的時候因為積分高 警察都在那個時候抓村安以外不是特別的時候根本都沒有人在抓"},{"start":5969.545,"end":5993.221,"text":"這也是很多檢察官都反映過我想部長一定很清楚這個我再說張文雖然他的前科看起來算乾淨可是過往我們有非常多的案子他們是有很多奇怪的前科在譬如說今年10月在苗栗有一個當街吵小朋友去砍人的那個案子他就有很多次吸毒傷害人的前科"},{"start":5993.661,"end":6012.057,"text":"像這個的話它就符合106年你們的報告裡面說73%的前科族群裡面所以去從前科表去勾基然後再配合一些社會安全網等等這個確實是有機會預警到這個就是你們的報告內容部長 這個報告你們要不要去把它拿出來"},{"start":6013.158,"end":6034.212,"text":"重新再審視一下你們花了一百多萬去做了這份報告結果你不能沒有做啊但是這九年下來你們就是沒有做啊部長這我們來努力好那這部分你自己承諾你要努力我們來努力雖然我們知道食物上面殺人大部分都是有恩怨"},{"start":6035.769,"end":6058.366,"text":"隨機殺人其實大概是5%但是每一次發生它都是讓社會重大的震驚所以我還是拜託部長你能夠把這個高風險的這個前科名單跟社安網警政署的一些資料去做一些勾擊至少可以攔截掉七成以上的悲劇還有一個就是因為廳長也在我就要跟廳長報告"},{"start":6059.898,"end":6085.66,"text":"部長你們這些資料配合衛福部的資料警政署的資料如果能夠再搭配過往的刑事判決其實你們是可以做出分析的哪些人他將來是屬於高風險的那這個時候是不是我們公權力就要稍微介入去關懷持續的關心去降低他這種恐怖攻擊隨機殺人這個狀況發生部長我不知道你認不認同這個建議"},{"start":6087.661,"end":6109.178,"text":"這部分我們來努力我想這部分防治這種全民有責那我們法務部會關注這個問題部長那個不能說只有努力兩個字好不好因為解套的方式就在那裡那我剛講的也不是我個人幻想出來的而是貴部在106年的報告自己做出這樣的建議好不好我們當作一個重要的參考"},{"start":6110.599,"end":6134.234,"text":"還有高檢署這次有搞了一個督導小組那這個是完整的嗎他能夠指揮衛福部教育部然後調動警政署的資料嗎他能這樣做嗎這個督導小組本來就是一個辦案的任務的編組那這部分是直接是在一個追究就是有一些的模仿效應的部長但是我很怕你所謂的任務編組搞到最後都是應付立法院沒有 這個我們有"},{"start":6135.555,"end":6163.355,"text":"那我再跟你说那个106年报告第32也有提到设置社会安全团队执行长那个人来跨部会去统合拜托你们是不是可以思考像行政院做出这样的建议依据你们106年报告第32也要设一个这种跨部会的执行长否则到之后法务部没办法指挥卫福部啊然后大家又开始到之后横向联系又出问题了各部会这边要有行政院的一个高度但是你要去建议啊我们法务部是属于"},{"start":6164.156,"end":6183.337,"text":"屬於那個一個辦案的一個我知道啦 部長你不用跟我講這個還有一個犯罪被害人不是 部長那你可以跟行政院講你是行政院裡面最高最懂法律的人所以也最懂治安的人那你是不是要跟行政院做這樣的在全國我們必須要尊重內政部的這是你們的刑事政策吧"},{"start":6183.897,"end":6206.169,"text":"當然這個是我們會做一個跨部會的原來我們社會治安就是卡在這個是行政院的事不是法務部的事是這樣嗎不是 這個是你說是行政院決定的或法務部沒辦法我只是拜託你法務部是不是可以跟行政院建議去做一個跨部會的這個指揮而且這也是你們106年的那份報告裡面做出來的"},{"start":6207.35,"end":6232.209,"text":"當然我們可以提供一些的意見來過跨部會那你至少你是不是可以跟行政院做出這樣的要求這樣的建議或是把你那份研究報告給行政院看不然你那花了一百多萬去做的那份報告不就沒有任何意義了嗎好不好你很多時候去勾結他的就醫紀錄行蹤紀錄等等的不會發現不了就像張文他被通緝了那難道他這半年沒有看醫生沒有用健保沒有經過入口監視器嗎"},{"start":6233.65,"end":6253.246,"text":"其實這都是我們懷疑他也新聞報他還去住旅館住旅館你是要登記身分的就完全都沒有勾結到就讓這個人在外面趴趴照那我提出一些解方我提出一些質疑點我不是找貴部麻煩而是希望你們能夠思考一下怎麼解決然後怎麼跟行政院那邊去溝通不能說"},{"start":6254.423,"end":6279.233,"text":"只有被害人沒有人權被告人權滿檔不能這樣子你法務部不能再用實質廢死再餵養下一個殺人犯我跟你講今天有一個另外一個主題是法官怎麼判刑我跟你講民國98年的時候有一個凶嫌黃富康因為心情不好他就隨機殺人他把房東也殺了他還要想殺他的老婆還要砍他老婆小孩結果呢"},{"start":6280.387,"end":6309.383,"text":"他在監獄裡面關了十幾年最後病死在監獄裡面所以他等不到槍決他被判死刑定驗了但等不到槍決就病死在牢裡面那司法院的報告這次司法院報告這次你們也引用先判八說要最嚴密的正當法律程序然後講的也是新聞在講的那八大關卡所以我們今天我們這中華民國變成是要判死跟登天一樣難要執行死刑那更困難所以就都不用了嘛"},{"start":6310.043,"end":6334.035,"text":"我國現在犯罪成本超級低部長 我知道你聽了中言逆耳聽了你可能不爽但是我還是必須告訴你我們現在我們的司法系統我們的法務部以及司法院聯合努力之下讓我們這個國家犯罪的成本壓到很低我今天台灣人民看到的是什麼"},{"start":6335.287,"end":6356.478,"text":"一個毫無悔意隨機獵殺房東殺妻兒的死刑犯國家用納稅錢養他養了一輩子而且不依法執行死刑犯在台灣變成民存死亡這就是實質廢死所以殺人犯就覺得反正我只要拖得夠久國家就不敢殺你如果我們讓死刑犯有這種感覺部長對不對 是不是這樣"},{"start":6359.762,"end":6387.102,"text":"部長你們都不執行嘛我有執行過啊對我知道謝謝你所以這個就是本來應該要做的嘛我們不是人民對政府的最卑微的期待不是就是依法行政依法行政拜託依法行政這不是人民最卑微的期待嗎那請問其他34名死刑犯呢這些都死刑定驗的為什麼還要繼續拖你是不是還要讓外界覺得反正多年以後還是可以逃過死刑所以這34名呢部長"},{"start":6389.659,"end":6391.409,"text":"这还有34名你们怎么处理"},{"start":6394.295,"end":6422.243,"text":"這部分現在最高檢在一先判的意思在主案的審查是我要提非常上訴那我想我們就那沒有提的呢沒有提的你是不是要執行了這部分最高檢要審核他審核如果說沒有非常上訴的或其他的一些申請再審的一個室友沒有我跟你講你們真的是佛心來的對被告超級好被國家關到死都不用執行我跟你講"},{"start":6423.345,"end":6449.237,"text":"苗栗那個暴力前科犯出獄之後根本沒有完整的追蹤跟剿制在街頭再犯這代表什麼我們國家的刑事政策根本兩頭空要嘛對犯下極端惡行的人你就猶豫不決然後搞他實質廢死要嘛對於有再犯風險的前科犯你也缺乏追蹤人放回社會就不管了我們看到的是這樣人民看到的是這樣你技術性的"},{"start":6450.357,"end":6464.291,"text":"阻擋死刑其實在凌遲那些被害人家屬然後我再跟你說2019年10月4號有一個中華警政研究學會他有一個議題從隨機殺人案件談社會安全網的建制他會議紀錄第12到第14頁當時那個"},{"start":6470.277,"end":6493.579,"text":"著作者他也去提到兩個案例第一個湯姆雄殺人案的那個兇手還有第二個北投國小割喉案湯姆雄那殺人案的兇手怎麼樣他說犯案前我有上網查過判決在台灣殺一兩個人不會被判死刑那我在牢裡關一輩子就好所以他殺了一個10歲而已10歲而已的小朋友"},{"start":6494.639,"end":6507.609,"text":"然後這個人在上網前查判決他發現精算過犯罪成本超級低連法務部跟司法院聯手搞實質廢死把判死刑跟執行死刑的門檻搞得跟天一樣高"},{"start":6508.82,"end":6530.402,"text":"那你不就告訴全國的這些潛在的罪犯你放心殺就算你殺小孩只要不要殺太多個都沒事國家會養你一輩子國家國立養生村讓你在裡面住一輩子更慘的是2016年這個人果然如他所願判無期徒刑所以沒有判死刑他的預言成真"},{"start":6531.638,"end":6557.732,"text":"所以最快25年後也可以出來這就是一個悲哀那北投國小那個割喉案那個殺的是8歲的女童他說我想自殺但是沒有勇氣也許住到監獄裡面我的幻聽就會不見了所以他是換一個地方養老就我剛講的國立養生村請問一下貴院 貴部你們是在獎勵犯罪者嗎你們為什麼要實質的去推動這個"},{"start":6559.353,"end":6586.443,"text":"廢除死刑我們是執行死刑現在宣判113年宣判八次的那個也是所以我剛講的三四名死刑犯都沒有到現在也都沒有執行已經過了那麼久了還是一樣所以是不是我有時候氣到講不下去2017年無期徒刑定讞國家就是養他們一輩子所以到最後最可怕的是"},{"start":6587.711,"end":6614.186,"text":"他們殺人之前上網去查 查完之後認為成本很低去殺了一個不認識的小朋友 毫無恩怨的小朋友殺完之後如願所長 法務部司法院變成許願池許願判無期徒刑 果然無期徒刑好 進去關 爽了25年之後申請假釋就有可能出來這是我們現在看到的社會問題啊這個一二審法院都是有判 最近的憲判發作法院也是有判死刑的案例啊"},{"start":6615.006,"end":6619.949,"text":"我知道 但是所以我没有说废除死刑我是说你们实质废死"},{"start":6622.581,"end":6648.82,"text":"這34個人也是判死刑定讞但是貴部連執行都不敢執行不是就這樣嗎對你有執行一個謝謝你但是依法行政不是最基本的嗎對不對還有34個沒有執行我跟國人說我已經執行一個了所以我有執行是這樣子嗎更不要講當時社會輿論說這個人根本被殺就是拿來記其用的是當時社會發生的問題拿來記其用的"},{"start":6649.961,"end":6668.629,"text":"我想最後我跟部長報告一件事情你不能做到整天在搞提升健舉率什麼加強什麼我還沒講完捷運暫停的守望因為這會怎麼樣這會讓警察累死 法務部裝死"},{"start":6669.656,"end":6698.191,"text":"我看到的是這樣警察類似法務部裝死法務部沒有裝死我如果說裝死的話這句話我居然沒有公知我沒有裝死你怎麼可以直接就講法務部裝死我又受不了法務部長了報告主席我又受不了法務部長了法務部長可不可以請我講完話之後再請你論述你的委屈好不好部長當警察在寒風中站崗的時候櫃部在幹嘛在辦公室冷氣房裡面在想怎麼幫死刑犯逃死"},{"start":6699.311,"end":6700.232,"text":"我剛有說了我講完之後 請部長論述可不可以 部長"},{"start":6722.893,"end":6736.923,"text":"麻煩部長我講完之後再請部長論述部長我剛講了警察在韓風東執行站崗的時候我們法務部在辦公室想怎麼幫這些被告逃避死刑我們今天看到的是這個樣子"},{"start":6738.024,"end":6754.405,"text":"你要研究怎麼樣讓死刑更難執行所以我一直覺得當國家沒有辦法保障人民不被殺死卻可以保障殺人犯在殺人之後不被判死這是我現在看到我憂心國家的一個問題所以我對法務部有兩點"},{"start":6755.626,"end":6770.445,"text":"要求 最後這兩點我說第一個啟動73他的這個前科名單就剛你們貴部106年的那個報告第二個 儘速公開交代除了微死刑的那兩個殺人犯之外其他的殺人犯目前處理"},{"start":6771.526,"end":6788.451,"text":"處理的進度這跟偵查不公開無關請公佈讓我們國人都知道我跟你講我剛剛講那兩個隨意殺人的那個殺小孩的那個只是想吃老飯但是呢他卻利用貴部的一些想法那他們現在就是很開心的在他的國立養生村裡面去過"},{"start":6789.571,"end":6798.234,"text":"爽爽的在那邊過日子而且不要再用這個什麼督導小組這種虛設的這個單位來騙社會等一下等我講完部長我會讓你講這種虛設單位來騙社會這個沒有意義這是拿來騙立法院拜託法務部坐有遠見部長你不是來吵架的我跟你講完之後讓你講部長部長可不可以我講完之後我讓你講嘛部長"},{"start":6816.687,"end":6837.285,"text":"部長我講完之後我一直在一再的說我講完之後讓你講嘛那我剛提的那兩個建議嘛制度上面有建議因為我覺得法務部不是在處理一個單一個案而是在為國家的有做一些有遠見做一些制度性改革的事好 部長 讓部長講他如果喜歡講讓他講麻煩部長最後一分鐘然後之後因為今天時間已經超過很多了"},{"start":6838.862,"end":6849.165,"text":"我對吳委員你講說檢察官在裝死在辦公室吹冷氣這部分我嚴正的駁斥你當過檢察官你也知道檢察官非常的辛苦像今天這個1.2.1.9的隨機殺人事件檢察官在第一時間主任檢察官帶檢察官直接趕回現場了我們第一時間也責負了請要求的整個台高檢察成立的一個督導小組然後給檢察官然後每一個地檢署都動起來就是應變小組"},{"start":6866.289,"end":6885.234,"text":"那這段時間就為一個網路的巡邏也查緝了那麼多的案件也押了14個人辦了37個案件另外還有緊職安置1人那這個也起訴了5人了那這部分怎麼會在辦公室吹冷氣然後你跟我講說委員你有講說你有證據說我們檢察官在幫被告"},{"start":6886.595,"end":6908.449,"text":"在免除他的那個死刑我們就是嚴正的對惡性重大的最嚴重影響社會治安的這下面我們就具體嚴重的一個這個具體的求重刑你怎麼會去講你當過檢查部長怎麼會講這種話部長我在講東你在講西我剛講的是在實質廢死的部分你在這邊跟我講社會個案我從來沒有說社會個案的檢查官沒有認真我也沒有說警察沒有認真但是我們看到的就是你不敢執行死刑"},{"start":6916.134,"end":6930.311,"text":"我看到是這個點所以我從頭到尾我講的是實質廢死的部分你要去扯到個案不用來騙我們我邏輯能力沒有那麼差可以這樣講嗎可以這樣講說我們檢查在辦公室吹冷氣在那邊幫被告那個那個實質廢死就是這樣沒有沒有這回事啦"},{"start":6931.152,"end":6955.814,"text":"你關在裡面那麼久為什麼不敢執行部長你為什麼憲判八出來之前有多少人關了十幾年為什麼你不敢執行如果你說憲判八出來之後我無話可說憲判八出來之前為什麼部長你不敢執行憲判八出來之前部長我再三講了為什麼憲判八出來之前你已經當部長了為什麼你不敢執行好謝謝好謝謝好請回座"},{"start":6962.571,"end":6964.179,"text":"好 接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言"},{"start":6973.649,"end":6995.735,"text":"好 謝謝昭緯非常感謝昭緯今天排這個主題那也就是針對我們這次無差別的這個攻擊犯罪事件那我們在這邊討論如何防治還有這個量刑相關的一個議題那我想現在在這麼多元的社會我們會碰到這一類的事件事實上是會越來越多"},{"start":6997.416,"end":7014.609,"text":"但是這次我們大概就先針對這個事件發生以後我們要整個國家是不是有足備的能力來針對假訊息還有陰謀論來做一些處理跟因應那麼這整個事件裡面很重要的就是網路跟盛情平台"},{"start":7015.484,"end":7022.751,"text":"也是針對網路跟社群平台一些沒有查證的訊息這些陰謀論的相關指控會刻意來渲染"},{"start":7036.043,"end":7058.96,"text":"犯者的家世背景 國籍 親屬身份結果還散播了相關的境外勢力的滲透還有特定族群來製造恐攻等等的說法這些內容在當時其實是沒有經過警方的證實而且還被很多專業人士已經談到是造謠所以本席在這邊要指出來的是"},{"start":7059.56,"end":7084.403,"text":"整個資訊戰會從失控的言論資訊趁虛而入那往往是透過重大的公安事件來利用恐懼不安跟憤怒來放大社會的內部矛盾然後刻意挑動大家平常在關心的這個政黨族群身份跟地域的一個對立那重點就是會讓整個社會的互信來削弱"},{"start":7085.043,"end":7095.869,"text":"也會攤販了集體的理性跟決策的能力所以本席現在來請教警政署今天警政署是王組長還有廖政傑是保安組的副組長 王副組長"},{"start":7107.984,"end":7119.295,"text":"那剛才本席已經把背景大概交代了一下所以重點就在於事件發生的這個同時那可能"},{"start":7119.855,"end":7147.467,"text":"在這個多元事件裡面整個比較多元的社會裡面現在我們會面對很多沒有辦法預期的狀態所以警政署在這個部分在事情發生以後網路上的大量流傳的也沒有經過查證嫌犯背景陰謀論跟仇恨性的一些言論那警察局是不是已經有刑事警察局是不是有系統性的收集掌握跟分析了呢"},{"start":7147.967,"end":7174.248,"text":"那第二個部分是假設訊息明顯的涉及許多不實的資訊然後惡意煽動相關的對立那警政機關目前的因應作為是什麼是只能在事後澄清呢還是及時可以通報跨部會的聯防與追查那是不是可以請警政署這邊做一個回應謝謝委員那因為這個部分是我們巡視局的業務我們請巡視局來幫忙"},{"start":7176.148,"end":7200.58,"text":"那這邊跟委員做一個報告就是這個專案成立之後那我們警政室有成立一個專案的小組而且他每天都會回報在當時嗎 就是當時馬上對 馬上就成立了 對那我們現在每天都會統計這個網路上面有一些恐怖攻擊的這些或是不死的這些言論那目前有收集到了118件那已經有查緝了23件還有22個人"},{"start":7203.981,"end":7230.166,"text":"對 我們每天都會做一個管制而且會通報各縣市警察局要聯合來做一個查緝好的 這個是針對本席的第一個問題你們針對這個事件大概有一些系統性的整理是第二個部分如果在同時間很快的就有人同時在散佈這些言論的話你們是不是只能在散播之後然後有一些回報的時候才有一些回應呢還是即時就可以跨部會的一個處理跟追查"},{"start":7231.012,"end":7253.675,"text":"這個部分我們會通報各縣市警察局他們有一個科技犯罪偵查像這次的事件就在台北市然後各縣市警察局這個可能又更久了我們本期是在談事件處理的事件發生的當下你們的整個處理有沒有在即時性的部分大概在怎麼樣子的誤差呢對一個比較重大的一些事件我們會立即通報相關的一些部會"},{"start":7254.417,"end":7269.485,"text":"好啦 這個是你們講的這個通報你剛才講到各縣市有相關的部會其實本席這邊比較關心的是說那如果面對這些這個可能跟事件相關直接相關或間接相關或者是沒有相關的這些資訊那其實它有的時候會"},{"start":7270.906,"end":7285.063,"text":"誤導成另外一個事件的發生那這個部分你們如何因應跟處理好 那你剛才其實也沒有直接回應到這些問題是不是可以把你們在這件事情的一個作為上給本席送一個報告好不好是"},{"start":7285.703,"end":7312.543,"text":"所以剛才本席講的這個部分最主要就是說在事件發生的時候很多的謠言陰謀論跟仇恨的敘事都會在社會當中發酵那這會產生國安問題但這個國安問題不是事件的本身而是可能平常就有一些有一些東西在發酵所以其實這次的個案可以讓我們看到整體性的整個社會安全或國安問題該怎麼去處理因為很多"},{"start":7313.564,"end":7342.476,"text":"在這個事件裡面搞不好跟國安沒關的那它就會導引成一個國安的一個狀事件跟狀態然後把真正要處理問題的這個焦點導到別的地方所以那新聞又尤其是會這個樣子把一些陰謀論然後推波助瀾又成為另外一種幫兇所以這個部分我覺得你們應該要在這次事件裡面做一個整理然後聚焦在如何不要讓事件擴大成為其他不相干的一些問題"},{"start":7344.016,"end":7367.712,"text":"第二個部分 這個部分我們要請教法務部跟國土安全辦公室是不是請相關的代表所以本席剛才講到陰謀論跟仇恨的敘事在社會中會發酵有的時候不是只有在輿論的層次有的時候就會產生一些集體暴力的模仿跟再現這一次我們知道法務部這邊有相關的一些處理"},{"start":7368.673,"end":7374.382,"text":"但是這次重大的隨機殺人事件有假訊息也有陰謀論的擴散以外還出現了一些恐嚇的言論攻擊的預告跟仿效的訊息這也是一個仿效效應的警訊所以"},{"start":7383.655,"end":7403.709,"text":"法務部有對外表示你們要全面啟動應變作為目前高等檢察署有成立督導的應變小組也要求各地方的檢察署來成立反放恐怖的攻擊應變小組要強化網路的巡查這個是法務部目前已做的本席這邊要強調幾點剛才部長這邊有提到在這個事件"},{"start":7410.354,"end":7414.658,"text":"發生之後呢剪刀機關目前辦了14個人然後37個這個案件嗎這個部分是不是可以請您我是剛才聽到委員在質詢的時候那您有這個數據的一個回應那因為是本席的問題"},{"start":7426.531,"end":7449.335,"text":"所以可不可以請您在這個部分再更深入一點的回應就是說這個案件我們這個是一個多禮拜到十天左右我們到昨天為止那個已經我們辦了已經四十個案件了那有被告三十八名那五個人已經起訴了那另外我們生下十八件那有羈押的是三人 拒保九人那暫時案子有一人"},{"start":7449.895,"end":7479.415,"text":"那這部分這個是這個督導小組的確跟那個應變小組的確是專組才專組專者檢查辦案的不是內警是專者來辦案的那跟警方做一個聯繫的傳口跟調查局所以我們這只會調查警方跟調查局來全力來查起這些的模仿的這些效應那因為這個民眾會恐慌所以我們是全力的壓制那所以這部分我們這邊是一個成果就實際上的一個作為"},{"start":7480.075,"end":7506.961,"text":"那另外那個對那個被害人那部分我們事實上也採取一些的關懷的一個機制在第一時間其實上我們都已經進入到跟被害人來做一個聯繫那我們啟動一路相伴的好的謝謝部長那所以本席剛才的問題您的這邊的回應那本席可能需要您後續在整個案件已經偵辦完成的這個部分給本席一個簡單的就是內容上的主旨上的一個回應好不好"},{"start":7507.521,"end":7536.457,"text":"那你們目前的作為已經針對這個恐嚇維安的這個言論已經做了一些處理那本席這邊也要請教的這應該跟國土安全這個比較關係是那在這個部分如果尚未構成一些犯罪而且但是是有一些高度風險的一個象徵那辦公室是不是有確保暢通的跨部會的前端介入機制本席這邊談的是一個模仿效應的前端防治的一個問題比如說風險的通報評估或中央"},{"start":7537.598,"end":7564.68,"text":"機關地方政府設服校園體系的一個協作來提前降低後續極端行為發生的一個可能法務部國土部署都可以做一個回應國土安全部這邊主席委員好針對這個部分後續我們也會依照院長還有兩位政委的指示督導相關內政部警政署交通部還有法務部衛福部針對相關的部分"},{"start":7565.661,"end":7586.362,"text":"還有相關的預警的機制做相關的測驚作為以上所以本席這邊要談的是你們一些制度性跟跨體系的一些預防措施如何來真正的遏止這個模仿效應那這是我們從這次事件裡面看到的我們可以透過這一點來守住社會安全跟法治的一個底線但是同樣的也對於這個國安問題和"},{"start":7588.964,"end":7610.055,"text":"衛福社政教育體系的一個聯動我覺得都在這個事件裡面應該再做一個更縝密的一個處理那後續你們如果有相關的這個結果也是不是可以把報告然後回應給本席的辦公室那部長你這邊好像有要補充的就是說我們就遵照那個委員的一些的指示我們也會做一些的書面的一個報告"},{"start":7611.336,"end":7630.028,"text":"好 謝謝最主要是我們現在很難去完全杜絕我們沒有辦法預測的一些事件跟行為最重要就是每一個個案我們如何去做處理跟因應當然有很大的系統性的問題是我們整個社會要去面對的"},{"start":7630.828,"end":7655.284,"text":"所以像我借用媒體的一句話一個人在社會中徹底斷裂又失去與他人連結的時候他常常會透過毀滅性的暴力來強迫社會看到他的存在所以這次事件發生的時候本席還蠻欣賞蔣萬安市長的一個回應他說他不願意去提這個人的名字因為他"},{"start":7656.825,"end":7676.69,"text":"這樣子會讓他成為這樣子的悲劇英雄我想在2019年紐西蘭發生的殺人事件也是同樣的道理當時紐西蘭的總理也不願意去提犯罪者的名字但是我們社會就很習慣的就把這些名字一直記然後一直講然後一直在散發相關的恐懼"},{"start":7677.31,"end":7704.628,"text":"那我想相關的單位我們都應該透過這幾個事件除了在法律跟犯罪還有刑責上的一個處理以外呢那跨部會我們或許要知道我們到底哪一些東西是在這裡面完全欠缺跟漏死掉的好嗎好 謝謝那最後我是不是很短的時間謝謝兩位請教一下司法院那司法院今天是是我們刑事廳廳長嘛"},{"start":7708.153,"end":7736.915,"text":"還有人事是處長我想兩個正好跟這些事情尤其是人事這個部分感謝昭緯在禮拜一排了一個司法院的考察我們辦公室有人代表我們去針對司法院的相關的一些業務做一些了解其中有一項也是本席經常長時期在關注的也就是司法體系是不是有足夠的工具跟量能來因應目前案件量"},{"start":7737.996,"end":7754.718,"text":"跟降低人力的一個負擔案件量變多但是人力負擔也變大那本席在這個委員會裡面經常在談這個人力的這個問題那我們知道在刑事案件已經用打擊詐欺因為打擊詐欺很多所以暴增那所以"},{"start":7755.979,"end":7774.565,"text":"本期這邊就針對你們過去曾經對外公布的一個試驗性的政策也就是AI司法裁判草稿的系統你們在民國112年有發布新聞稿來指出為了減輕法官的工作量提升審判的效能"},{"start":7775.945,"end":7796.178,"text":"不能安全駕駛幫助詐欺等犯罪的量刑智慧分析系統基礎上那裡面發展的深層是AI用於撰寫裁判草稿來供法官參考但是你們也有強調認定事實跟適用法律與量刑的一些核心事項還是可以由法官來完全自行決定"},{"start":7796.818,"end":7822.097,"text":"那麼新聞稿你們這邊也提到說系統已經開發完成那也規劃了試辦那麼毒品罪裁判草稿系統也在111年發包然後原定113年規劃擴及民事交通事故消債更生清算等事件但是在113年應該是同一年那個的10月你們的報導相關的計畫就暫緩了所以在考察的時候我們其實也"},{"start":7822.537,"end":7844.965,"text":"也問過這樣一個問題所以我想請教一下你們目前AI導入司法流程並不涉及判決書草稿的部分過去也有同樣的模型的開發但是好像也沒有一些著墨所以本席要請教的是在112年新聞稿提及的這幾項不能安全駕駛幫助詐欺的這些生成系統目前的狀態是如何"},{"start":7849.187,"end":7872.34,"text":"那是已經完成沒有上限還是你們事辦了以後終止還是你們的政策方向有了調整然後毒品罪的一個裁判草稿系統跟後續民事裁定的這個草稿AI的開發案那是不是也還在原先的規劃內那如果是已經暫停或有調整方向是不是有正式的一些政策評估的報告或風險檢討的一個結論"},{"start":7874.861,"end":7892.439,"text":"那這個部分是不是可以先做一個回應本席再接下去談是 跟國員報告一下因為這個不是我行事廳的業務不過在112年10月份我們有發一個新聞稿我們暫停暫緩相關的AI生成的一些裁判書的草稿"},{"start":7892.919,"end":7919.88,"text":"是因為有碰到什麼困難因為我們當時還沒有所謂的人工智慧相關的指引一直到今年的三月份相關的司法院引用人工智慧的指引才出來現在整個制度還有設計的推展是由我們資訊處還有司法執行廳在負責所以這邊也許是我們會後再跟委員做進一步的報告"},{"start":7921.269,"end":7945.104,"text":"好的那如果您這邊不是太清楚的話那會後可能相關的你們從一開始然後到底我剛才問的是說是有事辦了還是你們政策調整了或是您這邊說因為有一些指引出來了那是接續在處理呢或者接續還在推呢這個部分是不是可以給我比較清楚的一個回應所以我們不太會後再提供書面給委員好"},{"start":7947.165,"end":7967.358,"text":"那另外我在本席這邊再了解一下我不知道你們是認為目前AI不太適用在裁判草稿的一個輔助呢還是說你們對AI有另外一些想法那除了您剛才講的這個指引不曉得您對這個部分的就是院裡面這樣一個看法"},{"start":7968.658,"end":7993.857,"text":"基本上我們對裁判書不會是使用生成式的AI來製作這個是一個審判核心的東西必須要由人來決定裁判書這個部分大概我們的AI現在怎樣的是運用上大概比較偏向於資料的整理但是這個都還在研議中而已本席剛才有提到就是你們原先是想要這樣走"},{"start":7994.537,"end":8022.706,"text":"然後現在你說是這個裁判處的朝你這部分現在是沒有我們所知道好像新聞稿那時候是想說有朝這樣一個方向去走所以其實第一線的司法人員也會有這些期待那所以你們新聞稿這樣子發布然後他們可能有這些期待但是呢後續也沒有一些結果所以你們是不是更確定的讓大家知道以避免大家對於這個好像你們想要推動數位減輕負擔的方向那目前的做法或"},{"start":8023.126,"end":8047.12,"text":"有可能的一個推動狀況那產生一些期待的落差那是不是可以讓大家更清楚要不然你們112年講的這個方向大家有很多的期待可是現在可能中間有一些困難或過程或者是有沒有一些這個方向上的調整那這個部分是不是可以再更清楚讓第一線的司法人員去做了解"},{"start":8047.56,"end":8063.931,"text":"跟委員報告一下事實上我們的代理院長對新科技的使用在司法上非常有興趣而且非常有大力的在支持那事實上現在有推有組成一個科技司法的推動小組每兩個禮拜會開一次會那怎樣來就相關的AI的引進引進的程度跟風險的評估哪些是可以用哪些是不可以用這部分有逐步在每個兩週再做一次的討論"},{"start":8076.279,"end":8099.07,"text":"所以本席這邊的重點就是說你們先前有公告那如果就我的了解就有一些可能有一些format你們就會follow這樣子的做法但是或許你們在過程當中覺得還是要以人來做這個處理但是可能很多人在第一次就聽到你們的這個新聞的發布就有一些期待那目前好像有一些落差是不是也可以載明"},{"start":8099.85,"end":8122.269,"text":"那最重要的是本席這長期關心的就是司法人員過勞的這個問題那當然你們有找出很多方式想要來推動但是推動的成效 結果或者是方 政策如果有調整那這個可能及時的讓大家知道以免期待落差太大 好不好好 那相關的報告也就麻煩你們送到本席辦公室 好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":8125.282,"end":8135.325,"text":"好謝謝林倩琦委員那我們接下來先做會議程序的宣告待會在羅志強委員發言詢答完畢之後呢我們就休息五分鐘接下來請吳思揚委員發言謝謝主席先請正部長還有內政部警政署的代表有請正部長"},{"start":8154.75,"end":8178.543,"text":"委員好大家辛苦了我現在進行今天第一個議題無差別的攻擊全社會都要戒備慎防下一頁我要請教一下警政署的代表我實在是不堪其擾又來了冒用吳斯堯的信箱威脅要發動無差別的攻擊從12月22號到12月29號"},{"start":8181.224,"end":8205.993,"text":"六次包括昨天夜間我每一次被冒名用我的信箱寄信到警政署威脅說要攻擊101威脅說要攻擊松山機場威脅說要攻擊總統府不管是丟汽油彈或是要砍人我是不勝其擾那照程序每一次我都必須跑一趟北投分局"},{"start":8207.213,"end":8212.702,"text":"你想看看我這六天跑了六次北投分局有沒有查到什麼誰知道嗎報告委員 這個部分我們再做個查證"},{"start":8219.406,"end":8248.107,"text":"還在查證中這不是第一次這是第二波的六次下一頁前一次前一波是在國慶日的時候冒用吳思瑤的信箱總共10月9號到16次8次的揚言要發動恐怖攻擊你們警政署也已經知道不是吳思瑤可是我還是每一次都要跑一趟北投分局去報案"},{"start":8249.068,"end":8267.136,"text":"那這八次查的怎麼樣也是 會不會再做個了解再跟委員報告是 好像都沒有辦法查到一個具體的因為我們也都心知肚明這可能就是惡作劇或者是刻意的要去滋擾立法委員下一次 下一頁"},{"start":8270.959,"end":8285.345,"text":"那張文的捷運北捷攻擊案北投屈我的選區倒是真的成為一個被指名要在12月31號也就是今天要北投砍死100人你們查出IP在越南嗎"},{"start":8286.585,"end":8305.323,"text":"這段時間冒名的這種重大網路風險訊息應該是22件立案偵辦的應當是4件這是我上週一質詢張署長的時候獲得的資訊請問北投這個案子有沒有進一步的查到什麼因為我們北投都在部署都在戒備有沒有進一步的消息"},{"start":8308.961,"end":8328.816,"text":"所以你們今天來的代表好像就是不是很清楚這個辦案我要說就是無論如何這種網路的仿效的效應就是造成社會的恐慌甚至造成我被盜用帳號冒名的當事人的不堪其擾"},{"start":8331.872,"end":8346.806,"text":"這種網路的查查偵辦無論如何我請警政署要能夠有所作為我不曉得我今天質詢完又要是不是又被冒名了我又要再跑分局報警一次真的不要再亂了啦"},{"start":8350.681,"end":8369.797,"text":"這些滋事分子滋事擾事的分子不要再亂了下一頁那我很感謝警政署我週一去內政委員會針對這個張文的模仿犯要在北投砍100人的事件我向張署長提出質詢之後我提出幾個要求"},{"start":8370.377,"end":8393.275,"text":"就是應當在北投市林我服務的選區召開地方的緊急治安會議要落實官民協防我們的民防疫警社區巡守隊動起來然後加強巡邏提高見景率我那天江署長告訴我好像第一步是支援台北市警力中央支援好像80多人現在是不是又增加了應當是人力物力都來"},{"start":8394.932,"end":8400.066,"text":"目前還是維持在這個人數但是今天那個跨年活動會比較"},{"start":8401.583,"end":8427.985,"text":"對 跨年活動絕對要滴水不漏那當然增進公民的宣導對人民的危機意識要深化這就是我上週一質詢我謝謝署長我質詢完兩個小時內我就接到北投分局長的電話他跟我說 四邀委員謝謝你的關心我們週三就召開緊急治安會議我也親自去出席這就是讓大家都能夠守望相助 人人有責下一頁"},{"start":8428.928,"end":8440.311,"text":"那我要肯定一下北投分局就是他們自己做的一個文宣啊您知道捷運站碰到恐怖攻擊要如何自保嗎有四字訣 您知道嗎"},{"start":8442.54,"end":8464.071,"text":"警政署代表不知道這應該是我們北投分局自己的同仁很用心的製作跑 躲 擋 報第一個 能跑就跑第二個 不能跑就躲第三個 躲不了就擋 要找掩護最後呢 如果你安全了就報警跑 躲 擋 報"},{"start":8466.172,"end":8482.402,"text":"我真的很謝謝北投分局這一次全面的總動員這樣子的資訊我覺得非常有利於你們在各地分享給更多的民防社區的系統好嗎那另外你們知道這本小局書全台灣發放的狀況如何這國安國安在發的你們你們有收集嗎跟各地的縣市政府鄰里系統在合作的"},{"start":8492.848,"end":8503.435,"text":"包委員因為這一個部分是內政部在主導就好你們今天找警政署好像都一萬三不知可能代表不一樣了OK"},{"start":8504.795,"end":8529.98,"text":"我自己的轄區我服務的是林北投幾乎都收到了但是可能最後九成多還有一些last mile最後一些社區你們絕對要全力趕快把這個重要的人民強化民防的資訊全百分之百都要下放好嗎好 謝謝辛苦你們好 下一個進入今天的另一個主題就政務人員的專訪那個部長"},{"start":8532.902,"end":8538.412,"text":"當時我就提出了這是要誰啊你們行政院跟考試院好考試院好"},{"start":8541.122,"end":8562.242,"text":"我就提出專法的必要性因為如同美國、加拿大、英國、德國、日本等等民主國家都沒有立這種政務人員專法也沒有禁止政務人員參與政治活動因為政治活動這憲法賦予人民的權利嘛而主管機關到底是行政院還考試院現在還莫衷一試"},{"start":8563.922,"end":8588.168,"text":"那適用對象我看到三個版本羅志強委員翁小林委員吳宗憲委員適用對象不一翁委員的版本好像是適用比較大的把大法官法官都含納進去了那當然規範的行為包山包海也莫衷一事這些爭點你們認為現在有正向的結論可以進行立法了嗎你們誰要回答連主管機關考試院認了嗎"},{"start":8596.12,"end":8620.281,"text":"主管監察部分我剛剛有說明就是說這個法律裡面規範的有些部分行政院要處理那有些部分應該是監察院的工作好像有一部分跟考試院有關那牽涉到相關法律跟既有法律重疊的部分有考試院的法律沒有錯但也有行政院很多行政院相關法律所以也站在這個規範的對象因為高度政治性來講所以不太適合由主管管法制的考試院來處理"},{"start":8620.902,"end":8639.444,"text":"您的回答其實跟我們上一次就這個主題也是一致你們倒是蠻一致的好下頁所以有這些爭點這是我8月28號召委排案的時候我就提出來的建議如果有院版不管是考試院版或行政院版政府的版本有會比較好"},{"start":8640.445,"end":8669.214,"text":"當然要不要立這個專法是值得商榷第二個我也提出建議呼籲主席這個課題要邀請學者專家中央地方政府因為很多是規範地方政府應當有公聽會再來處理這也是我今天的建議當然相關的法規配套不管是公務人員行政中立法公務員服務法公務員懲戒法或是刑法121條都要一併的檢視我依舊8月28對於委員會提出來的呼籲"},{"start":8670.214,"end":8698.467,"text":"跟今天12月31號我依舊建議不要為快而快不要倉促立法這依舊是我今天的一些主張好 下一頁我倒是覺得非常的遺憾這也不是要問考試院那就鄭部長您上來代表一下好了立法委員自己不守法反定專法要去管別人"},{"start":8699.915,"end":8728.215,"text":"只准立委放火不准政務人員點燈喔譬如說今天要立政務人員行為基準法這一屆的立法院的立法委員們自己都不遵守立法委員行為法了左邊是我們宣誓的時候的誓詞啊於是以至誠客尊憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使權利"},{"start":8729.987,"end":8750.214,"text":"這是我們每一個人就任的時候對著國旗對著國父遺像所宣示的最重要的就是克尊憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使權利但是我們這一屆的立法委員自己都不克尊憲法自己都不效忠國家自己都不依法"},{"start":8752.174,"end":8764.051,"text":"來行使代表人民行使職權我看到翁曉琳委員的版本第18條第二項救護人員如果有違法廢除職務之事就要予以免職"},{"start":8765.816,"end":8786.812,"text":"那就怪啦立法委員自己違法立法委員自己廢除職務到今天12月31號了中央政府總預算第一頁第一筆預算都還沒開始審查這不就達到了自己廢除職務違法的就是立法委員啊立法委員要不要自己免職啊"},{"start":8788.564,"end":8803.819,"text":"翁曉林委員的提案第14條他說如果政務人員利用職務之便然後去收受賄賂等等收受金錢契約或其他利益之捐助就要有罰則那怪啦"},{"start":8804.74,"end":8831.368,"text":"國民黨的委員提出立法院組織法要把助理費納為立法委員的合法的補助費立委可以自肥立法委員自己貪獨自己把要給助理的錢變成自己的錢那自己立法委員憑什麼去管政務人員行為基準啊自己真的我委員自己的提案去想想發生在立法院的情景吧"},{"start":8832.526,"end":8844.782,"text":"不要立委自己不守法反定專法去管別人還包山包海管到海邊去連大法官法官都要管很奇怪下一頁"},{"start":8846.553,"end":8868.669,"text":"立委提案推翻憲判 這是我們上週五立法院院會晉覆二讀 譴責大法官而且立院用決議來宣判憲判無效而且不是只有這個憲法訴訟法的憲判無效喔我看國民黨團的這個提案甚至耳後啊 耳後啊"},{"start":8869.309,"end":8886.174,"text":"大法官援引此判決以人數未達憲法訴訟法所定的這個門檻的話一切的憲法宣判均屬無效不生效力應該是司法院的代表應該上來這樣一個憲判無效案用立法院的決議可以推翻憲判"},{"start":8888.457,"end":8916.523,"text":"這就違反憲法78條違反憲法訴訟法38條違反釋字185號的解釋嘛立法院自己廢除職務違法還違憲要不要自己免職自己啊還敢訂政務人員專法下一個翁委員呢昨天提出一個要修公投法可以用公民投票來覆決包括憲法法庭的判決"},{"start":8918.719,"end":8944.4,"text":"憲法增修條文第12條如果你要公投你就去修憲公投吧公投法第二條也規範了所謂的全國性公投依憲法規定依憲法規定要依憲法規定你現在要用公投法又去推翻大法官的憲法判決自己又推違憲法案不只沒有客尊憲法不只違法還違憲還廢除職務不審預算"},{"start":8947.603,"end":8968.662,"text":"那這個標準立法委員自己要不要免職啊來 廳長您最棒您那天的很多答覆我覺得非常的公允立法委員可以用立法院的決議推翻憲判嗎立法委員可以修公投法啟用公投來推翻憲判嗎 您簡要回答"},{"start":8970.579,"end":8996.366,"text":"委員針對這個事項分兩個部分一個部分就是有關於立法院決議譴責那個大法官的憲判這個部分那這個部分就是之前有說明就是按照憲法訴訟法規定憲法法庭的判決本來就是有拘束全國機關跟人民的效力這是第一點我就是要再度澄清的然後再來有關於這是最新的昨天要修公投法"},{"start":8998.047,"end":9016.597,"text":"這個部分公投法將憲判納為公投的標的因為公投法其實是透過直接民權去補充代議民主的制度的不足在性質上面將一個司法的決定納為公投的標的會有意義"},{"start":9018.658,"end":9034.221,"text":"那就這個部分我先做一個簡短補充是 謝謝廳長我幫您翻譯為白話文如果任何一個司法的判決有委員不服以後就用立法院的院會決議來推翻司法的判決本來有罪的便無罪可以這樣嗎"},{"start":9036.226,"end":9048.738,"text":"或者是在野黨的委員不滿某一個司法的判決然後呢就發動勞民傷財全國性公投用全民公投來推翻司法的宣判可以這樣嗎 鄭部長可以這樣嗎不行嘛"},{"start":9053.317,"end":9074.011,"text":"翻譯白話文就是這樣嘛如果這樣依剛剛窩小林委員提的政務人員專法違法廢除職務的就要免職政務人員這些違法又違憲又廢除職務不成預算的立委不是自我免職自我了斷嗎最後來下一頁過去到現在阿扁執政時期135個釋憲案"},{"start":9076.856,"end":9081.182,"text":"馬英九總統執政時期95個釋憲案蔡英文總統時期120個釋憲案賴清德總統上任到現在8個釋憲案我要再次強調釋憲案98%都是人民權利不是"},{"start":9091.741,"end":9113.429,"text":"府院憲政機關的爭議98%都是人民權利如果國民黨所提的這一個推翻而後所有的憲判天啊天下大亂立法院最大又來了立法院最大又來了自己要不要先廢除職務先自我了斷自我免職啊下一頁"},{"start":9114.309,"end":9136.497,"text":"所以過去幾個經驗585號釋字在2004年的時候當時是陳水扁任命的大法官但是國會多數是國民黨因為大法官的宣判國民黨國會多數依舊通過了徵調會的條例的三讀修正依據大法官的視線去立法院作出回應"},{"start":9137.877,"end":9155.96,"text":"來做出一個合憲的修法這是針調會條例下一頁釋字613號是在2006年7月宣判的當時一樣是陳水扁總統執政沒有錯他任命的大法官但是國會多數是國民黨當時的國民黨還不敢這樣違憲國民黨也很快的在5個月後來完成NCC組織法被宣判違憲的組織法的修法他們改回來了"},{"start":9165.943,"end":9193.862,"text":"讓違憲成為合憲再看大家印象最深的是字748號下一頁就是同婚法案同婚法案大法官宣判之後2017年國會非常的慎重國會的各黨派在2019年花了兩年的時間我們通過了亞洲第一個同婚條例合憲一憲行憲就是國會不分黨派憲法沒有顏色大法官沒有顏色"},{"start":9194.842,"end":9221.843,"text":"為什麼這一屆的立法委員要一再的挑戰憲法要不要依你們所提的政務人員專法自我了斷自我免職呢所以刮刮別人的鬍子之前先刮刮自己政務人員專法我再次回到我的要求要有公聽會因為它適用的範圍很廣它規範的內容很廣然後它主管機關不明"},{"start":9222.984,"end":9245.899,"text":"然後他所有法律的競合要一併思考我再一次提醒昭緯我們要做合法 合憲的立法委員因為我宣誓的時候吳思瑤對著憲法說我事已制成 恪遵憲法我相信翁曉琳委員也是這樣宣誓的不要心口不一 謝謝好 那麼接下來我們就請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":9265.376,"end":9276.84,"text":"主席有請法務部長然後司法院刑事廳理聽長還有內政部警政署好 麻煩請幾位長官列席好 謝謝部長好在12月19號"},{"start":9290.188,"end":9310.774,"text":"捷運台北車站然後中山站發生隨機殺人事件3小時內造成兇手在內4人死亡11人輕重傷令大眾非常的震驚那也造成重大的傷亡我想要請教一下部長"},{"start":9312.281,"end":9340.444,"text":"如果這位凶嫌他活著的話按照現在我們的憲法判決憲判8號之後的整個的判決標準凶嫌會被三審判死嗎跟委員報告這個會不會判死刑這個是法院的審判非常好 我知道你怎麼回答不為難你來 我想請教一下我們的李廳長"},{"start":9342.771,"end":9364.319,"text":"委員好你覺得兇嫌會被三審判死嗎這個個案的預測我不做判斷不過我跟委員報告在憲判八以後法院還是有做兩次兩個案件有宣判三次的宣判死刑案件非常好來我再想請教一下剛剛李廳長已經講了對不對在憲判八後對不對"},{"start":9365.447,"end":9392.993,"text":"有三次的判決死刑的案件對不對包括像去年5月三重滅門案今年9月一審判決就是死刑對不對是一審判決而且是國民法官的案件一審判決之後就會執行死刑嗎 廳長要必須等判決確定之後才可以當然不會要等判決確定都不一定執行死刑對不對 廳長沒錯吧"},{"start":9395.078,"end":9424.154,"text":"執行是法務部這邊來執行對嘛 也不一定嘛現在還有多少的死刑犯還沒執行三省定驗的目前是36位36位嘛所以我要請教部長我今天還是很嚴肅的跟你講因為我剛剛看到吳宗憲委員每次跟你質詢你的火氣就比較大一點點尤其講到死刑的問題我覺得部長不需要今天又不是憲法憲判8號又不是你做出來的"},{"start":9425.27,"end":9448.899,"text":"我們只是就事論事來告訴大家憲判8號之後我就問部長判決死刑有沒有變得比較困難有沒有我們先從小的開始說起他這部分判決死刑這邊有沒有比較困難這個是個案的一個應該是司法院的審判的一個程序跟結果有比較困難嗎"},{"start":9450.083,"end":9478.249,"text":"如果是對最嚴重之罪來講他應該判決死刑那是罪責相當的問題那自己說相關的一些程序的保障我覺得由個案來判斷是好 不意外的回答但是也尊重你們因為確實不是你們的職權可是我今天就要告訴大家為什麼社會大眾認為是實質判死實質廢死的判決我從幾個具體的事情來告訴大家我們先回到今天"},{"start":9479.674,"end":9500.226,"text":"12月19號這一齣兇殺案類似的情況跟鄭捷的狀況有類似吧 廳長對不對 也是隨機殺人案就目前知道的狀況是蠻類似的請問鄭捷被判了什麼判死刑 而且已經執行了對 三審判死刑執行在現判八之前還是之後"},{"start":9501.499,"end":9526.666,"text":"在現判八之前非常好這就是一個重要準據現判八之前像鄭捷這種案子他會被判死刑而且會被執行但是現在因為那個凶犯已經死了所以不知道這是未來是不知道可是我再想請教一下廳長也順便請教一下部長台版柬埔災案廳長知道吧"},{"start":9528.796,"end":9554.365,"text":"我來舉重民眾我先不比較哪一個案件凶殘這個12月19號的案件凶殘還是台版柬埔案的案件凶殘我來問一些具體事實請問台版柬埔案案件當中死了多少人死了幾個人來 部長知道嗎 不知道應該是三位三位 我告訴你今年初發現多一位"},{"start":9555.31,"end":9584.37,"text":"所以你的資訊已經落後了今年發現多一位案發時三位被虐待死亡我想請教被拘禁凌虐多少人多少人六十幾人六十一人詐騙金額多少四億多少被詐騙的受害人兩百六十六位"},{"start":9585.848,"end":9606.903,"text":"我要問最後問這個案件有沒有令人髮指部長拘禁毒打然後禁食然後未毒不從就打虐待到死關61個人詐騙4億是不是令人髮指部長"},{"start":9614.131,"end":9634.7,"text":"的確是非常可惡非常可惡 廷長是不是令人髮指我認同我直接跟廷長跟部長說簡直叫聞所未聞我真的說實在話我還真難找到比這個更凶殘的案件台灣發生過關61個人的案件嗎 請問廷長"},{"start":9638.137,"end":9661.566,"text":"拘禁六十一個人凌虐的案件台灣發生過嗎有沒有發生過有沒有發生過我的印象中是沒有答案就是沒有還虐待四個人死亡有沒有發生過廳長沒有發生過夠凶殘吧夠可惡吧夠令人髮指吧來請教今年十月三層定宴判決什麼"},{"start":9665.94,"end":9691.018,"text":"無極徒刑主嫌免死確判 逃死確定殺了4個人 官虐61個人詐騙4億 266人受害如此罪行滔天 令人罰則案件 現判8號出來以後免死確判了這第一個喔 我是用個案先來做比較喔那我在問"},{"start":9694.977,"end":9723.599,"text":"那回到今天的1219的案子人家人民心裡怎麼想好當然了個案未必能夠完全比負對不對 廷長對不對那個個案的情節不是完全一致對啦這部分他事情居然致死的部分對沒關係對 這我也認同了兇殺1219兇犯就已經死掉了然後我再請教部長"},{"start":9724.246,"end":9752.504,"text":"那我從另外一個我不從個案來講因為部長我告訴你我跟你質詢很多次了我剛剛看吳宗憲跟你質詢你們一直講的一點說沒有實質廢死原因很簡單就是剛剛廳長講的有三件事情有被判死刑對不對是三省定業嗎不是嗎被執行了嗎會被執行嗎目前不會因為三省都還沒定業根本沒到執行的階段更何況部長還有多少已經三省定業的還沒執行的"},{"start":9754.86,"end":9777.724,"text":"36個啊36個對嘛那我再拉回來喔我想請教一下你知道2000年到2015年就是民進黨執政之前你知道每年平均有多少位殺人犯三審判死多少位部長知道嗎這邊我沒有統計資料警長知道嗎不知道我告訴你3.25位三個多啦三審判死"},{"start":9784.005,"end":9810.724,"text":"那我想請教兩位喔現判八號是去年九月二十三號做出來嘛 對不對到現在一年三個月了一年三個月了請問多少三審判死的案件 多少庭長多少三審判死多少現在沒有 沒有嘛零嘛現在還在最高法院的有 還在你等到判了出來再告訴我就是零嘛就是零嘛"},{"start":9813.43,"end":9834.339,"text":"之前3.25位 當時政黨輪替 政黨輪替後也就掉到0.25也很低了 就民進黨執政之後也很低了可是很低也是0.25一年0.25位 現在一年三個月0所以今天我要跟部長說 我舉個例子"},{"start":9839.036,"end":9863.912,"text":"2022年新竹市正義輪胎案發生縱火死了多少人8個人這個兇嫌他欠債跟家庭吵架買汽油返家縱火母親妹妹七小大嫂子女喪生火海Eason判決的是什麼"},{"start":9866.052,"end":9891.907,"text":"一審判什麼死刑嘛 對不對好 來啦你知道高院在審理的時候他改判什麼改判什麼無期徒刑啦高院是改判無期徒刑高院的理由是什麼他是有自首的問題其中一個理由他引述了憲判八號限縮死刑範圍的這個判決"},{"start":9894.775,"end":9921.138,"text":"他直接引用憲判八號耶在憲判八號沒有出來的時候還沒這個理由改判當然可能有別的理由啦剛剛部長也有講可是他直接又用了憲判八號作為改判免死的理由到了最高法院今年二月六號最後請問這位凶嫌的判決定讞的結果是什麼無期徒刑啦"},{"start":9923.168,"end":9952.577,"text":"免死確判嘛 對不對免死確判所以我回頭要告訴部長也告訴廳長實質廢死這件事情他講的是今天剝離了今天受害者的冤屈剝離了被害者家屬受的冤屈大幅的提高了死刑判決尤其是三審判死的難度我都還沒算執行耶我都還沒算執行耶"},{"start":9954.266,"end":9982.602,"text":"所以才稱之為實質廢實判決所以我真的拜託部長也拜託廳長人民的聲音為什麼那麼憤怒就是因為我們看到這個現在的我們的刑事司法體系尤其在大法官做出憲法8號判決之後非常嚴重的傾斜向加害者對加害者保護無微不至啊但是呢有看到受害者"},{"start":9983.786,"end":10000.799,"text":"今天在地下枉死的冤苦嗎今天我看到受害者家屬日日夜夜走不出傷痛的悲區嗎所以我還是拜託部長因為剛剛看到您跟吳宗憲委員尤其針對實質廢止這個題目"},{"start":10003.622,"end":10020.234,"text":"我覺得你蠻生氣的啦我不是針對十指會死喔他是說檢察官是幫被告求免死這一點我是非常的這個每一件都是檢案求死刑後來當然未必那個後來的結果沒有合乎到我們的一個求死刑的一個理念"},{"start":10022.875,"end":10046.406,"text":"那個不一樣 剛才是說我們檢察是在辦公室吹冷氣警察在外賣命 檢察在吹冷氣檢察在幫被告求名詞這種我一定要嚴正的一個駁斥這個我必須要做一個聲明部長 我分兩段講你跟他兩段交鋒你後面是更生氣 看得出來前面講到實質廢死的時候你是表達強烈不認同 沒錯吧"},{"start":10048.191,"end":10076.189,"text":"这个本来就是没有失职的会死的问题所以我在跟你讲我没有 我们要否定如果说有失职会死的话那我们为什么检到求死刑没见 这个没见的都是求死刑我没有说那一二审的法官也是在判死刑有三件不是 你就说真的有时候我都觉得你的角色搞得不太清楚我又不是在指责你我从头到尾都指责你吗不是嘛你检察官针对一些凶残的案件求出死刑我没有否定你啊"},{"start":10077.895,"end":10104.524,"text":"我沒有否定你啊但是我講的是不是事實廳長都想到現在為止一審判三個死刑嘛三個嘛沒錯吧一審二審一審二審加起來三個嘛那個高雄有兩件嘛一審二審加剛剛廳長講三個啊有多嗎三件三件嘛三件嘛所以沒有所以法院好像是要判一二審他國民法官也是判死刑沒關係啊我跟部長說交給社會公平嘛"},{"start":10105.967,"end":10128.459,"text":"我就跟你講2000年到2015年三審定驗判死就是3.25個啊以現判方法到現在一年三個月就是0個啊你跟我講一審二審判決 天堂都講了啊判了以後會執行嗎 不可能嘛沒有三審判之前都不可能執行嘛三審判了之後也不一定執行嘛"},{"start":10130.253,"end":10158.406,"text":"这一点部长你总不否认吧我想是事实问题没错吧没有不执行这个就还有一些救济程序在处理中就36个还没执行我也没否定你你执行了一个我跟你讲部长我今天在这边我够温和了没错吧为什么因为我也不想跟你再做很多的争执因为我只是要把具体事实平平静静的清清白白的清清楚楚的把它呈现出来就像社会公爵几个重点"},{"start":10159.451,"end":10182.956,"text":"第一個 憲判八號之前像鄭捷這個案子就會判死並執行第二個重點今天到現在為止確實憲判八號有宣判死刑就一審二審三個案子這三個案子都還沒到三審定讞第三個事實三審定讞憲判八號之後就是一個都沒有第四個事實2000年到2015年每年3.25個"},{"start":10187.017,"end":10213.646,"text":"三省判死現在這過去一年三個月零個這第四個事實第五個事實現在有36個人死囚在年任內還沒執行這些都是鐵針針的事實叫不叫實質廢死判決不用羅志強說我想也不完全需要部長來說社會大眾來去公判啊讓我們的受害者家屬去想一想啊我們有沒有嚴重的傾向加害者謝謝"},{"start":10216.508,"end":10221.256,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員我們就依照剛剛會議的程序我們現在先休息五分鐘"},{"start":10536.771,"end":10541.954,"text":"謝謝美麗的主席來有請我們法務部政部長司法院廳長現在高昇了嗎還沒快點了還要離廳長"},{"start":10562.76,"end":10588.5,"text":"委員好我想首先要來就教政部長還有我們議廳長就是說上一次本席在這個地方質詢就有關於整個兄弟姊妹這個特留份要不要廢除這樣的一個問題那最近我看藝人的部分潮汐品的部分社會上也討論得沸沸揚揚那上次我本席在質詢的時候也一直在提出一個所謂的是對這個被繼承人"},{"start":10593.266,"end":10619.597,"text":"還沒死亡以前對他有特殊貢獻的部分當初的質詢我是認為說如果全部都按照血緣那現行制度這個繼承人他的一個因紀份他的特留份這個部分如果要去做一個廢除的話可能要去做更多的一個學者跟專家來做一個討論我看今天媒體好像說已經這個研究報告已經出來了嘛 部長對"},{"start":10621.097,"end":10632.246,"text":"報告出來以後可不可以請你講一下方向未來我們準備可能我們法務部或者司法院這個地方大家認為說怎麼樣的一個制度那對我們整個台灣社會可能這個現行制度的一個變革"},{"start":10639.531,"end":10668.586,"text":"可能未來這個社會比較能夠接受請問您的看法謝謝委員這個研究報告我還沒看過那個法律事務司他應該有這個資料那我想這個的確是剛才委員有關心到這個特留份 應濟份等等一些有關繼承的這個問題兄弟姊妹是不是貢獻度等等的這些的研究包括在日本或者其他的或者把特留份降低或者是廢止的這部分那我們現在就再研究"},{"start":10669.506,"end":10690.876,"text":"那司法院這司法院我請教您的看我的想法就很簡單我的想法說本來大家都是靠血緣都是血緣 宅散 老伯 貴姓 孩子 配偶這看起來這是整個社會裡面的一個組成裡面大家覺得好像是言之成理那你把兄弟姊妹的特留份把它給廢除掉"},{"start":10691.997,"end":10696.202,"text":"那我們如果再去創設非繼承人 非繼承人就是都一堆喔非繼承人到時候 如果有留一堆英籍財產在那個地方那很多人會講說 我也跟他很好耶 在新義正我都陪他走路 跟他在那裡泡茶"},{"start":10710.42,"end":10737.221,"text":"生日穿得不好的時候我都這樣穿一件衣服我都穿去公園運動到時候如果碰到一個類似像這樣的案件的話會不會有好多人來做這樣的一個主張制度的一個變革本來就是要好好的去做一個思考而且本席上次還有一點擔心就是說如果把兄弟姐妹的特留份把它給廢除掉的話"},{"start":10738.717,"end":10761.403,"text":"好像是宣告過去家庭的一個組成裡面兄弟姊妹這樣的一個緊密的一個結合的一個關係本來就疏離那好像是在對外宣示兄弟姊妹其實在整個家庭的一個組成裡面它變成那麼的不重要這也是本行當初擔心的一個地方那現在委託學者專家的一個研究報告出來我不曉得司法院這邊的看法"},{"start":10763.936,"end":10783.142,"text":"委員很抱歉 因為我是刑事廳 所以民事的部分都通啦 刑事廳這條沒通法律都一通百通我只能根據之前我們司法院出具的書面報告認為說民團在倡議兄弟姐妹的特留份的部分我們司法院是沒有不同的意見"},{"start":10784.102,"end":10787.726,"text":"你們沒有不同的意見所以不然我們現在如果修法的時候你要看我知道你們內部還會再去做一個討論這個問題本來就是可以討論這個問題也沒有什麼在這個地方會吵架大家好像攻防得很劇烈 不會只是說社會各個層面裡面要去關注"},{"start":10804.704,"end":10825.582,"text":"百年的一個制度的一個變革本來對社會會有衝擊你要用一套制度去把社會每一個個案去把它給含設進來確實是不容易但是我本席的一個建議就是說我比較擔心的是說一個家的一個組成那如果去把兄弟姊妹的特留份"},{"start":10825.942,"end":10840.016,"text":"你說把它給完全都給廢除掉的話是不是會動搖整個一個家庭的一個概念也許有些人覺得這個不重要的這也沒關係這個社會本來就是社會會不斷地去演變但只是說一個制度的一個變革裡面應該是更細緻再來你們就一定要提出版本你會提出來這個謝謝委員他那個事實上他那個研究"},{"start":10850.098,"end":10864.447,"text":"報告是有七大的修法的一個建議啦當然有包括委員關心的那一部分那其實七大建議包括配合居住權貢獻分的這部分還有特留份遺產分割前金錢存款債權的行使死後認領印記份價額請求權"},{"start":10866.568,"end":10890.121,"text":"等等還有自書遺囑那這部分我們剛收到這個研究的一個成果報告那我想我們會把它當作納入我們一個修法的一個重要的一個參考那明年明年初應該會過這個年漸漸十二月再幾天就明年就會盡快的啟動修法的程序對啦因為最後的過年的最後的一天本席到也認為說創設這樣的一個"},{"start":10892.682,"end":10907.529,"text":"有對於被繼承人他的一個特殊的一個貢獻那因為這樣子而取得部分的一個遺產這個我也認為合理啦那另外那個司法院請回我要再來今天那個范寶協會的執行長有來"},{"start":10908.749,"end":10928.529,"text":"我想要特別來請教一下部長的就是說前陣子我看這個無差別的一個攻擊的一個悲劇也換取個人很大的一個這個一個危機的一個意識但是其實要說關注的新聞在草上的都只是兇手但是受害者跟他的家屬"},{"start":10929.31,"end":10943.657,"text":"是在悲劇發生的時候他們最痛我們更應該去聚焦的是說國家的手到底有沒有伸進來那國家其實他也有溫度的一面啦環保協會在第一線第一時間去介入像譬如說一路相伴專員保護的志工那及時時間的一個救援在第一時間裡面還有很多專業的培行像律師同步去投入那還有實質的一些補償協助申請遺囑"},{"start":10959.546,"end":10985.888,"text":"補償金180萬那我要問的就是說要問的就是說那其實這在中央來看的話好像是我們剛好有行政院這個院裡面中央會去做一個督導嘛那各地方裡面我就比較擔心了我就比較擔心我們這個其實這個這個制度這個制度我們也看到了中央的決心我們看見了但比較擔心的是地方就是說"},{"start":10986.889,"end":11003.625,"text":"本法第18條要求地方政府去召開聯繫會議共同來推動業務我請執行長上來的意思就是說你們在地方上有沒有碰到什麼樣的一個困難需要部長跟你們幫忙協助的地方"},{"start":11006.095,"end":11011.736,"text":"謝謝委員的推詢那跟委員報告所以我們現在已經依法每年會定期召開的聯繫會議那在未來呢我們也會提高這個會議的頻率來透過會議對於案件的一個處遇的一個機制以及服務的模式來進行延伸那同時呢我們也會加強我們同仁對於這個地方政府可以提供的資源的一個熟悉度讓這個資源能夠更及時的對接"},{"start":11035.302,"end":11042.191,"text":"然後有效的運用我們也會努力建立這個更完善、更成熟的一個跨單位橫向聯繫的工作模式"},{"start":11043.177,"end":11072.003,"text":"我比較擔心的就是說我為什麼在講說地方的部分我們比較擔心就是說地方政府現在認為他只是協助的角色他認為你會感受到就是說這個會不會是我們一個地方單位對服務的一個不熟悉缺乏這樣保護的一個經驗就是說他的權責是一個模糊的他認為我只是一個協助的角色態度會不一樣那你這個位階不對等"},{"start":11072.663,"end":11075.305,"text":"就是你範保分會的位階會比較低你很難去有效的整合地方的一個局處像比如說開個會他認為我派個志工來那我到了整個議場裡面他們能夠扮演發揮的角色"},{"start":11089.449,"end":11112.776,"text":"我會覺得地方這樣子就比較可惜有沒有可能我們法務部就是我們法務部這個地方你就從中央帶頭你打通地方執行的最後一體路你像譬如法務部跟各目的世界主管機關應該主動建立一個合作的機制由上而下去下達指令給縣市應對的譬如說衛生局 勞動局跟社會局"},{"start":11114.571,"end":11122.184,"text":"你的指令如果不明確 地方分要怎麼進去我來我就 地方政府也覺得是 也覺得是協助而已執行長難道你們沒有發現這樣的一個現象嗎"},{"start":11129.321,"end":11146.32,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上現在不是列席現在我們在法務部有督導犯保協會訂定犯罪被害人權益保障業務聯繫會議實際要點有保留四個常委常任委員的席次在各分會裡面有設證"},{"start":11147.601,"end":11169.228,"text":"警政 衛政 勞政那個都是他們就由地方政府這四個單位派他們的主管過來參與這個聯繫會議的一個開會那這個也是結合社會安全網的一個重要的機制那另外事實上我們其實除了這樣我們在檢查體系我們在峰會那個地檢署都會"},{"start":11171.148,"end":11196.881,"text":"會參與檢察長或者是聯席會議的一個主持會做這樣法務部當然委員的關心這部分其實法務部是當他們最後的一個後盾這包括預算人力或者是法規這部分有什麼問題我們會再做隨時的一個檢討再加強這些犯保的分會的再服務這些犯罪被害人的這些的能量"},{"start":11197.481,"end":11225.636,"text":"部長 其實我的主要的一個目的焦點就一個我們修法以後地方政府的角色已經不一樣了對 的確是不一樣我們更應該讓地方政府來共同承擔這樣的一個責任這個必須要我們保護部我們再來加強好不好主席 不好意思最後我要再請教一下我看這一次這一次的一個無差別攻擊的事件大家在討論"},{"start":11226.716,"end":11228.417,"text":"說這個細胞簡訊要怎麼發的一個問題那這個其實涉及到一方你說細胞簡訊要不要發當然要謹慎兩難你隨便發大家覺得說反而會造成恐慌"},{"start":11242.288,"end":11247.573,"text":"可是呢 你過度謹慎又變成拖延那也許去擔心你說發佈簡訊就引起恐慌那我們更擔心的是說 民眾如果都是狀況外那才是真的叫做恐慌啊我看台北市政府他現在也那個指引也做出來了嘛那26號也送我們那個內政部了劉正博有來嗎 你們有來嗎"},{"start":11264.147,"end":11278.635,"text":"一般我們天然災害當然都是消防署那現在剛好你的法令還不夠齊全的時候那當然地方政府他就要創設一些指引那我想可能就因應這個跨年來的跨年你接下來還有一些像譬如說運動賽事你還有春節"},{"start":11281.616,"end":11298.45,"text":"很多啊 五花八門啊那我比較擔心的是說我們全國有沒有辦法制定一個標準這就是法務部我叫不定站在這裡比較不好意思部長先請回警政署都沒有派人嗎今天今天不是在談這個嗎今天有警政署是吧 好不好一分鐘我都主席都已經同意我了我的簡單的因為這個"},{"start":11302.967,"end":11305.968,"text":"中央如果沒有一個全國的一個指引外界會認為說你的卡車有夠慢人家地方政府都動起來了全國的標準我是覺得很重要尤其你看這個雙北甚至到那個季節你說一個兇手在捷運裡面他可能犯案的地點可能在新北"},{"start":11327.396,"end":11346.13,"text":"一下子三十幾分鐘以後就跑到台北市來了你說這個地方到底要不要發你說跑掉就好了不是如果是在萬一又是在捷運上你總不可能台北發新北沒發問題是你還沒有去掌握他到底人在什麼地方的時候這個部分會造成恐慌那跨區的部分我們如何"},{"start":11350.433,"end":11359.155,"text":"你內政部跟警政署去負起責任制定一個國家級的一個方案你總要整合出一個全國性的一個跨區發布的指引好不好 請說明謝謝委員那這個有關那個告警細胞這個部分它是要報到那個災防一個科技中心來做一個在整合那這個部分我們有在做反應可能會就它的一個"},{"start":11378.9,"end":11385.704,"text":"發佈的一個時間 地點 相關的條件再做一個審慎的一個我現在意思就是台北市人家已經送了這算積極嘛 捕獲王嘛 這是好事嘛那你總要有一個全國性的啊各縣市都有可能我們不談各縣 談六都就好啦近近而已啊 很有可能啊像在陶川很有可能啊那你怎麼樣有一個讓老百姓覺得說我就有政府在 我在怕什麼"},{"start":11408.738,"end":11425.149,"text":"如果是地方政府的首長那我要請問你的指引是什麼台北市有啦新北市要不要有 桃園市要不要有你總是要去設定一個比較國家級的方案你像譬如說那個標準到底是什麼你現在說有立即危險的趕快發什麼叫立即危險"},{"start":11429.502,"end":11451.021,"text":"你不可以只求 你要想一下好不好 我們態度也不要讓人家感覺是拖延啦 這樣也不好的這個 我認為這個時間確實很難定 我都很清楚那就是因為很難定那地方政府把你問題丟出來啦中央你總是要做一個統合嘛那整合出一個全國性的跨區域的這樣的一個支援我覺得很合理 趕快 好不好"},{"start":11452.236,"end":11474.244,"text":"包圍 因為這一個部分行政院已經有在做研議了相關部會都有在討論今天下午也會開會針對這個問題有做討論OK 那就盡數了好不好這個是國人的一個保障他的一個安全尤其是碰到這樣的一個緊急大家覺得危險的時候心裡頭比較安心好不好好 謝謝謝委員是 謝謝莊委員"},{"start":11485.629,"end":11488.014,"text":"好 我們現在請翁曉琳委員質詢好 謝謝主席這邊首先先有請司法院的李廳長還有書記廳的廳長"},{"start":11505.972,"end":11527.647,"text":"好 李廷長好這次大法官作出五人判決我想也引起了全社會的嘩然我首先想請教因為廷長你之前本來就是刑事庭的法官我想請問一下在一般你們做你們在合議庭裡面如果說法官有人拒絕評議的時候你們會怎麼處理"},{"start":11530.444,"end":11548.514,"text":"根據我們的經驗沒有發生這樣的事情如果有人拒絕評議你們會怎麼樣案子會一直擱著嗎是不是案子會被擱著等到有法官或者說是在換另外一個法官的時候加入評議你們才會開始審議"},{"start":11551.519,"end":11575.388,"text":"我們一直沒有這樣的經驗從來沒有過這樣的經驗是民聽法官也沒有應該是這個全中是您是民聽法官嗎我之前是辦理民視事務那也跟委員說明在我的審判經驗中我沒有遇過和議庭的法官拒絕參與評議的情形所以在你們規則裡面沒有沒有針對如果說有法官拒絕評議的時候怎麼處理嗎"},{"start":11581.376,"end":11603.895,"text":"因為在一般的法院裡面其實我們會有因為一般的法院的法官人員會比較充裕假設 我說假設如果真的遇到有法官持續的拒絕參與評議那可能在必要的情形下會去變動相關的事物分配或者是依照代理表"},{"start":11604.695,"end":11621.003,"text":"換別的法官來參與評議嘛對不對也就是你們還是要達到全部的法官都要這個一起參與評議才可以做成裁判才可以做成判決對不對按照你們現在的做法不就是這樣嗎"},{"start":11622.958,"end":11641.102,"text":"委員在一般的法院法官緣額充足的情形但是憲法法庭沒有這樣子的狀況憲法法庭的大法官沒有其他沒有代理的問題所以要等到他補足了之後才開始審議這是最簡單不過的道理"},{"start":11648.53,"end":11674.673,"text":"今天五位大法官做出的判決它就是明顯違反了不管是舊制或新制的限訴法的規定它就是一個違法的組成然後又做成了這個判決請問這兩位法官就是如果在一般的實務法事務上這個裁判如果說是違反這個法定的組織程序這個裁判是怎麼樣是不是自恥當仁無效"},{"start":11677.145,"end":11689.832,"text":"我們去講一般的法理如果是在一般法院部分是不會發生這樣的事情沒有啦 如果發生了呢這叫組織不合法的問題那可能就被上訴審就撤銷掉了啦"},{"start":11693.496,"end":11708.746,"text":"所以撤銷就代表什麼 就還是違法違法無效的判決才會被撤銷因為組織不合法而被撤銷接下來我想請問針對大法官組織不合法所作成的判決誰來約束 誰來制衡違憲違法的大法官現在我們有沒有這個機制不太適合回答這個是憲法法庭的獨立的運作現在我們有沒有這個規定"},{"start":11725.643,"end":11754.878,"text":"我們憲法訴訟法裡面有沒有這樣規定針對違法違憲大法官違反這個組織法定程序所做出來的判決我們現在有沒有任何究竟程序我想跟您說明現在沒有一個大法官解釋或是憲法法庭的判決是組織不合法好很好也所以從我們行憲我們大法官會議組成以來到現在從來沒有出現過任何一例的五人判決對不對"},{"start":11756.343,"end":11771.212,"text":"我沒說錯吧從來沒有過在過去我們的大法官會議甚至還要達到四分之三或是三分之二的門檻才可以這個開始這個會議組成到開始評議所以提高大法官人數的門檻這個並沒有違法也沒有違憲在過去就是這麼做而且實施了非常長的一段時間"},{"start":11786.653,"end":11812.513,"text":"今天這五位大法官真的很勇敢很有勇氣他創了舉世無雙的案例我們現在看到從來沒有一個什麼憲法法院的會出現有在大法官明顯不足的情況之下讓自己跳下來做判決而且還可以說這個拒絕評議拒絕參與評議的法官他們不合群"},{"start":11813.334,"end":11832.813,"text":"所以排除异己我们五个人自己做就好了接下来这五个大法官如果说有两个人认为说我今天这个参与我也不想参与平抑或是我持反对意见好没关系我也排除这样三个大法官然后过半数一个大法官就可以做成判决了我在这里想要告诉大家的是"},{"start":11838.902,"end":11862.076,"text":"我們中華民國的憲法法庭真的是鬧了全世界最大的笑話做了最荒謬的事情我都不知道未來其他的憲法法院德國 日本 法國等等這些憲法法庭或他們憲法委員會來台灣參訪的時候你們要怎麼去講這個事情丟臉至極好 請回 兩位請回"},{"start":11864.96,"end":11890.978,"text":"那麼今天吳士堯委員在他質詢的時候又躍提 跳題然後在批評我們今天所提出的《政務人員法》草案還有批評我提的《公投法》的修法以及昨天才提案的修憲案有關於要恢復人民有權可以提案罷免總統"},{"start":11893.376,"end":11916.887,"text":"我時常懷疑就是我們這群民進黨的委員們他們到底了不了解什麼叫權力分立立法委員的職權它的功能在哪裡是要去制衡行政權就要去監督行政部門今天我們的立法院裡面我們看到民進黨委員"},{"start":11918.171,"end":11939.705,"text":"他們不僅沒有好好的去監督行政院為什麼不依法編列預算為什麼不依法執行反而處處在包庇行政權這是我感到非常遺憾而且也不齒的地方到底誰不事任"},{"start":11941.854,"end":11956.505,"text":"大家看得很清楚民進黨的委員到現在為止他們有沒有針對我們的相關的法案有提出對岸行政機關也是消極完全不提對岸接下來我要請全序部還有考試院是"},{"start":11965.868,"end":11991.291,"text":"秘書長在你們的報告裡面也講得很清楚從民國84年立法院作出決議要求考試院要提出相關的政務人員法草案之後從87年到101年你們曾經五度提案108年的時候其實權敘部自己也有再提了一次案只是說到了考試院然後後來也許找了行政院一起會商之後就沒有再提出了"},{"start":11992.738,"end":12012.408,"text":"過去認為政務人員法的主管機關考試院很有GAS擔當下來依據憲法的規定就是由考試院可以來作為政務人員法的主管機關政務人員的退府條例也是你們定的是什麼原因造成你們現在的立場大轉彎"},{"start":12014.402,"end":12030.701,"text":"各位報告其實過去您講那個以前那一段立法院的決議是大概30年前民國84年蠻久一段時間以前那當時考試院應該是尊重立法院的這個決議所以就開始進行這個工作那108年呢"},{"start":12032.643,"end":12044.694,"text":"那108年的部分當然就是說我們內部在討論以前有這個提案後來沒有一直沒有審過那所以全區部這邊要不要續推這個工作那在院裡面討論的時候因為我們一定要徵求行政院的意見"},{"start":12045.768,"end":12065.234,"text":"那这个时候跟行政院这边就开始出现权权上的区分请问一下当时行政院的意见是谁的意见当时代表是谁 行政院主要是人事总署人事总署当时人事长是谁人事长是就是现在的师部长所以师部长你当时在108年的时候你反对全序部的提案那你现在当全序部长的时候你当然自然而然也反对这个提案"},{"start":12066.614,"end":12078.038,"text":"變成說整個政務人員法沒有辦法推進看起來關鍵也是在施部長您身上也不只這樣因為你從之前你就反對到現在你也反對好 那接下來請教一下我想請那個蘇人事長好 人事長那個施部長認為考試院不適合擔任政務人員法的主管機關所以人事總處要扛下這個責任嗎"},{"start":12096.411,"end":12122.819,"text":"事實上 施部長也不是說他不適合沒有 我現在只問你你要不要扛下這個責任因為這個 因為人事行政總處願不願意擔任政務人員法的主管機關我們一切尊重大院的決定啊好 很好好 謝謝任市長好本期要強調的是這個法勢在必行我們現在有三個委員分明提出來了就像我剛剛之前一開始在"},{"start":12124.486,"end":12148.084,"text":"這個法案大體說明的時候有講我們現在各行各業都有專法唯獨政務人員法沒有專法政務官掌握多少的行政資源擁有多大的權利他的行為竟然可以不受規範更何況在我本席所提的政務人員法草案裡面我不是只有去約束限制政務官的行為我甚至還保障他的權利這些難道不應該定嗎"},{"start":12153.186,"end":12177.079,"text":"今天權序部失職人事行政總處也是怠惰看到我們這些法案早就提出來了吳委員的法案吳宗憲委員的法案在今年的6月就已經審查過到現在為止你們沒有任何動作沒有提出任何的對案之後我們通過了然後你們又說這都是立法委員提的案然後你們再去申請釋憲嗎"},{"start":12180.319,"end":12193.588,"text":"我真的很看不下去現在我們行政機關的這樣一個態度尤其是考試院請你們回去想想當時五權分立的國父創立五權憲法對考試院有多大的期待"},{"start":12199.329,"end":12221.708,"text":"結果你們現在完全鬆手一攤完全就是不管只管文官 事務官對於真正擁有權力的政務人員你們卻擺爛各位很棒 條件憲法實現上的確設計還是作為文官法庭的主管接下來我要再請教監察院的兩位部長可以請回請教監察院的"},{"start":12226.893,"end":12255.956,"text":"請問現在公職人員利益衝突迴避法裡面誰是主管機關哪個機關是主管機關公職人員利益公務人員利益衝突迴避法本院財產承包處是主政的機關財法負責財法簡單來說可能就是事件草原跟法務部反正你們當時推來推去那麼現在的這個利益衝突法有沒有處罰罰款的規定有有吧然後有沒有彈劾的規定可以送懲戒的規定"},{"start":12257.148,"end":12285.022,"text":"对 如果认为说有缺失有吗 所以在一个法律里面同时出现有行政法 有惩戒法这并不冲突嘛不过要跟委员报告就是说因为在执行的层面上面我们常常会主管机关的解释跟我们在裁罚执行的时候常常会有一些争议所以我们才会在书面意见表达说如果可以的话这个部分其实是由主管机关来负责行政调查之后做出裁罚这样的可能权责相符会是比较好的"},{"start":12286.494,"end":12310.61,"text":"這個部分我們之後可以再討論但是我只是要講就是說是在現行的法規裡面並不是說沒有這樣子的一個情況最後我可能最後一個問題我想請教法務部有關於隨機殺人的問題因為今天其實在之前的委員都已經有提到了所以我在這裡我就不重複我現在只是想要請教法務部的就是說有關於隨機殺人"},{"start":12313.308,"end":12317.029,"text":"殺人罪我們殺人罪有多久沒有修了殺人罪最近有修增加那個虐殺幼童的那一部分"},{"start":12334.349,"end":12354.105,"text":"除了越炸越痛之外對於像這種隨機殺人的犯罪行為過去到現在法務部從來沒有研擬要怎麼樣來規範相關的犯罪行為嗎我們要不要修殺人罪或者是說在殘害人群自罪條例裡面是不是也應該要修法"},{"start":12355.179,"end":12375.994,"text":"這個有關你委員關心這個有殘害人群自罪條例有相關的規定那另外但是它有針對像這種只是因為它是個殘害人群它是針對特定的團體但是對於不特定的多數人呢它這部分其實可以用刑法57條來做良形的一個重要的所以只是良形但是回到我剛剛講的犯罪構成要件的部分其實也要檢討"},{"start":12377.95,"end":12404.564,"text":"我們看到德國法國等等這些國家他們其實對於殺人罪的犯罪構成要件甚至把這種對於不特定的多數人以危險的方式去殺害殺人的這樣的這個犯罪構成要件他們都寫定在明定在這個殺人罪裡面所以本期的建議就是說希望你們能夠去好好的研議檢討隨機殺人就無差別殺人要不要"},{"start":12405.584,"end":12432.758,"text":"定定獨立的犯罪的罪名或者是說我們現在修正殺人罪或者是殘害人群治罪條例裡面的部分的這些這個犯罪的這個犯罪過程要件其實是可以再去針對我們剛剛講的無差別殺人的這樣的行為類型去做更具體的規範我覺得我們法務部不要怠惰好不好你們每年的立法計畫"},{"start":12434.819,"end":12457.128,"text":"應該把這些都要納入我們期待看到你們下個會期的立法計畫可以把這個相關的殺人罪還有剛剛講差案人權治罪條例等等的規定都可以併入考量積極的去提出相關的這個修法不要每次都是跑在我們立法委員後面好嗎請你們要去進行檢討以上謝謝"},{"start":12462.506,"end":12463.887,"text":"好 謝謝翁曉琳委員我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間就繼續進行到所有登記發言委員都詢答結束為止接下來我們請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":12489.881,"end":12504.12,"text":"好謝謝主席我先請法務部長還有我們警政署今天有保安組副組長以及我們國土安全辦公室代表請警衛官員到備詢台"},{"start":12508.202,"end":12514.506,"text":"我先請教部長有關於這次北捷殺人事件現在檢調在偵辦中在電腦硬碟現在要把它解密的部分現在是不是碰到非常大的一個困難"},{"start":12526.494,"end":12549.081,"text":"好像這個根據媒體報導到目前為止這個嫌犯張文他的電腦硬碟到現在都解不開是不是碰到這樣的一個瓶頸這部分是警方在做一個處理那這邊我想這個是技術性的問題那技術性是不是可以請警政署來那要不要請警政署來說明一下那個報告委員這個部分我們刑局還在做努力"},{"start":12554.759,"end":12581.662,"text":"還在做努力因為根據媒體的報導說這個硬碟因為它的這個而且連微軟都好像幫不上忙所以如果要解開甚至有說要到100年所以我想請教的是如果它到現在為止電腦硬碟都一直解不開的話會不會對我們接下來整個的這個偵辦造成了什麼樣的困難部長還是我們"},{"start":12583.405,"end":12595.386,"text":"那我想這個是一個當然我們希望能夠解開但是因為屬於這個數位的一個設備這部分的確有它的相當高的一個技術的門檻那這邊我想在整個一個"},{"start":12596.915,"end":12615.496,"text":"把它解開這部分當然可以充實一些的譬如說購買一些軟體設備那這部分屬於技術性基本上我們都是由警方或刑事局在做一個不過這個部分我想可能未來它甚至未來我們包含打炸還有一些那種重大犯罪恐怕也會碰到"},{"start":12616.096,"end":12636.806,"text":"那另外我請教一下警政署因為有張文他跳下來他死亡大家一直在猜測他到底是失足還是跳樓到目前為止我們可以確定嗎他到底是失足還是跳樓因為嫌犯已經死亡所以這個動機的部分還要做一個查證還是沒有辦法確定"},{"start":12638.214,"end":12652.665,"text":"所以也是不排除如果他今天其實他並不是要這個自殺的行為而是屍主死亡的話那如果他人還活著也不排除有更進一步的這些恐怖的攻擊對不對這個部分我們沒辦法做臆測"},{"start":12657.5,"end":12674.505,"text":"其實到底他的動機我覺得應該還是要把它搞清楚另外我請教一下剛剛莊瑞雄委員也特別提到因為今天就是跨年我們整個的全國的警力達到上萬人要怕"},{"start":12677.266,"end":12698.471,"text":"維持相關的治安剛才特別提到細胞簡訊的部分台北市已經確定今天會發出細胞簡訊當然我的意思說它不一定一定會發它有兩個狀況第一個狀況就是出現重大治安事件譬如說像北捷這個事件"},{"start":12699.171,"end":12727.45,"text":"那第二个他这次再增加了一个就是如果人潮特别拥挤也就是如果他出现子暴的现象因为在过去国外也有发生像那个前几年韩国有理财院的踩踏事件所以他今天呢已经确定说如果发生这两个状况的话他们会发出细胞简讯那我想请问一下到目前为止我们所警政署或者我们那个"},{"start":12729.872,"end":12741.138,"text":"國土安全辦公室所掌握的是只有台北市已經有這樣的準備還是說其他縣市也有跟我們做申請"},{"start":12743.564,"end":12767.502,"text":"有人能回答嗎包委員 目前我們這邊了解是台北市有提出一個申請書到災防科技中心去準備除了台北市還有沒有其他縣市目前我了解是台北市只有台北市但是今年晚上很多縣市都會有跨年活動"},{"start":12768.383,"end":12795.355,"text":"那么我有注意到虽然我们的内政部长我们刘士芳针对细胞检讯他有所保留可是我们的政务委员纪连城他肯定就是说他认为如果有细胞检讯可以降低可能发生的这些伤亡这些后果那所以我想请问一下我们内政部现在态度到底是怎样如果说"},{"start":12796.655,"end":12823.091,"text":"劉士芳的意思就好像說他還擔心會造成什麼什麼的後遺症但是紀連城政務委員又肯定所以現在不是劉士芳跟蔣萬安不同調現在變成劉士芳跟紀連城也不同調那我請問一下根據你們的專業或是你們的研判這個細胞簡訊到底可不可以讓各縣市政府或中央來做一個統一性的規範呢"},{"start":12825.103,"end":12844.845,"text":"包委員 那個目前的規定來說的話各縣市政府它是可以提出申請書核備以後它就可以應用這個目前規定是這樣但是就是要跟災防的一個科技中心去做備查去做申請 對自己怎麼應用 應用的條件如何這個可能要再思考這樣"},{"start":12845.953,"end":12867.222,"text":"我覺得你們要盡快啦其實最 就是今天晚上如果要做的話就是今天晚上其實你們已經一直在拖一直拖可能下一次的機會可能就是在那個就是在燈會啦 對不對所以我覺得我們還是有很多大型的活動我覺得這個動作要快好 那接下來我想請教一下部長"},{"start":12869.233,"end":12888.631,"text":"因為最近呢這個行政院送出了社違法的修法這裡面特別強調了如果有仇恨性的言論這裡面甚至包含這個網路上還要求這個網站要給他下架那當然很多的這些網站的經營者會"},{"start":12889.972,"end":12897.316,"text":"很困擾什麼樣叫做仇恨性言論我現在整理出這幾個這一陣子以來譬如說昨天中國的軍演我們就看到網紅一個網紅徐碧她就發文說希望砲彈可以不小心打到桃園的中國國民黨黨部讓他解釋一下為何他們阻擋軍購案"},{"start":12917.928,"end":12936.987,"text":"像這樣子 夠不夠成仇恨式的言論跟委員報告齁 因為這個仇恨 所謂這部分的修法的這部分齁那個這個不是 這是內政部主管的話對那這我沒辦法幫 我是尊重內政部的修法的提案啦"},{"start":12937.578,"end":12946.1,"text":"所以在行政院的時候你們包含你們根本都完全沒有任何的質疑說這樣子的修法它有什麼樣的問題有沒有限制言論自由問題或者難以執行的問題而且社會法過去本來就已經受到很多的質疑了"},{"start":12960.154,"end":12975.741,"text":"所以你們法務部完全沒有意見我這邊看到有這麼多這麼多的言論或者是這樣的貼文什麼叫做仇恨性言論好 譬如說這個我們常常提到那個檢察官的照片紮上絕痕你們立刻檢察官立刻偵辦所以認為這個是仇恨性的言論貼文訊息那同樣的把我們國民黨所有的立委來放一個靈堂"},{"start":12988.915,"end":12991.899,"text":"這樣子一個粉專放沒事啊這樣就沒事啊所以"},{"start":12993.502,"end":13020.676,"text":"法务部不觉得这样的修法有问题这个刚才委员有提到就是仇视检察官那一部分事实上他还是用恐吓的已经达到恐吓的一个要件所以这部分就依法来处理那至于仇恨性的言论这部分那这部分因为这个是属于立法内政部的一个修法提案那这部分还没有相关的内政部正好保安组也在这里来我要讲就是"},{"start":13021.916,"end":13048.761,"text":"這次這個社違法的提出來有很多人是認為就是當時的這個就是有關於網路仲介法的一個這個借師還魂因為針對就是說只要是你們認為是有這個仇恨式的言論影響國人之團結 你看到沒有這麼這麼泛泛 這麼就是形而上的一個"},{"start":13049.946,"end":13067.442,"text":"一個文字 什麼恐怖主義啦境外勢力的不當訴求對國安影響甚巨的話 什麼叭啦叭啦一大堆就可以要求在這個網路上要求他們把它這樣的言論給下架所以有很多人認為這是不是一種網路的箝制這種是一個網路言論的一個箝制什麼叫做仇恨性言論 我剛才舉了很多啦"},{"start":13076.05,"end":13100.203,"text":"同樣類似的事情對檢察官他認為造成恐嚇那對於這個幫這個民意代表立法委員擺靈堂這不叫恐嚇我們會不會心生恐懼對不對一般人你給他擺一個這樣子放在那邊 靈堂在那邊他會不會心生恐懼所以立法委員不應該心生恐懼這種都很多的就是這個標準"},{"start":13101.844,"end":13131.444,"text":"非常非常的我覺得非常的抽象另外我們也注意到包含了時代力量時代力量他絕對不是藍白陣營時代力量他也認為說你仇恨跟骨髓戰爭的言論是要管但是用社為法來管就是很不適當另外我們台灣警察工作潛意推動協會也認為社為法這樣子的修法事實上是很粗糙的"},{"start":13132.124,"end":13150.332,"text":"那我在這邊要特別提出來其實過去我要特別講因為社委法沒有錯剛才那個部長講的它不經過法院我們如果羈押現在我們來講我們其實在司法法制委員會談了很多次羈押的條件"},{"start":13151.152,"end":13164.848,"text":"可是呢現在的社委法不需要經過法院就直接給你拘獄三天讓你關三天或者讓你罰三萬所以這些部分會不會"},{"start":13166.369,"end":13183.697,"text":"變成一個行政上的濫權我提出一個統計資料因為我們在涉違法其實以過去幾年來警察機關的移送警察機關認為他違反涉違法"},{"start":13184.777,"end":13200.091,"text":"然後移送到法院但是法院不罰的比例事實上是非常非常的高的我們如果根據過去幾年來這樣子包含今年不罰的比例達到八成"},{"start":13202.072,"end":13216.842,"text":"達到八成過去監察委員也特別針對那個案子就是針對當時的這個台大的教授蘇鴻達的案件就是你們去把他移送移送到這個法院"},{"start":13220.128,"end":13231.346,"text":"當時監察委員也提出就是有關於這個以所謂的散佈謠言就基於涉違法的散佈謠言去移送事實上也有這個"},{"start":13234.602,"end":13250.089,"text":"違反人權以及沒有保障言論自由所以社會法沒有去檢討去做修正反而繼續的擴權在這次行政院送過來的其實是繼續的擴權而這樣的擴權你們現在才惡補你們現在才在惡補嗎"},{"start":13261.745,"end":13274.374,"text":"這麼重大的案子不管是保安組也不清楚嗎麻煩您大聲一點這個部分是由我們刑事局來主政的所以我們請刑事局來做說明"},{"start":13285.028,"end":13302.562,"text":"那個社會法的部分還是要經過那個行政法院麻煩您 因為您可能戴口罩 請您稍微戴沒有關係那個社會法的部分還是要經過那個行政法院經過法院好 經過法院 但是布法的比例很高啊 我剛剛不講嗎是不是很高"},{"start":13307.768,"end":13315.893,"text":"那到底是我們前端大家在白忙一場還是法院它的那個判決有問題"},{"start":13317.557,"end":13340.382,"text":"到底是前面的移送太腐爛還是法院的判決有問題在我前面第一個就特別講到今天早上也有討論到就是有在網路上詢問到我們的監察院長陳菊有事嗎 一樣被移送被移送之後法院認為這根本沒有違法的問題是不是"},{"start":13343.925,"end":13373.452,"text":"那我想請問一下那你這個拘役是需要通過法院嗎才能夠拘役嗎拘役有拘留是不是需要拘留所以如果你們要處三日以下之拘留或者新台幣三萬以下的罰還是不是要經過法院的判決拘役的需要 罰還的不用"},{"start":13375.556,"end":13402.506,"text":"對不起 你大聲一點居易的需要要經過行政法院居易的這個部分就是居易的部分 那罰款呢這個不需要罰款不需要嘛 對不對所以我個人認為因為當然這個是行政院送出那其實最近已經引起非常多的質疑有很多 我要講的是在這個部分其實我看到已經不是只是你說什麼"},{"start":13404.587,"end":13427.985,"text":"這個藍白陣營或者什麼綠的陣營其實包含綠的陣營也已經有人去提出這些種種的相關的疑慮所以到時候在當然立法院的部分我們會嚴格的審查所以我覺得內政部也應該採納雅言我覺得為什麼會行政院可以這樣的莫名其妙匆匆忙忙的就送出這樣的這個設違法的修正我個人也覺得有點不可思議好不好"},{"start":13432.928,"end":13441.573,"text":"但是我覺得這一部分既然引起大家的疑慮還有很多的討論那我們就應該去好好的去嚴格的審查以上好 謝謝王紅衛委員接下來我們請陳冠廷委員發言"},{"start":13464.747,"end":13465.77,"text":"最先我們先請部長 阿烏部部長請鄭部長"},{"start":13474.119,"end":13497.474,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長這一次我們從1219的這個張文的案件來去檢視雖然說張嫻已經死亡 那已經進入相關的程序不過這個案件讓我們思考到一個良形架構上面的問題所以想請教部長 在我們的刑法或者是良形的實務上法官他們在良形的時候會參考他的犯罪動機"},{"start":13498.695,"end":13521.605,"text":"但是會有一個弔詭的現象如果是因為仇殺 如果是因為情殺或者是因為財務的關係有一個明確的可非難的動機的話那這時候良心他可能會被認為是惡性重大來去加重可是如果在無差別殺人的話因為被害人是隨機的動機甚至可能是模糊的還不確定"},{"start":13522.825,"end":13548.442,"text":"甚至可能會用精神不穩或沒有針對性而導致有可能判決比較輕換句話說現在現行的架構之下有一種可能就是他如果去謀殺一個有仇恨的人可能會比殺害一個素不相似的路人判得更重有這樣的可能性可能這個部分在一般民眾的這種情感上比較沒有辦法去認同"},{"start":13550.123,"end":13574.171,"text":"韓國的大法院的兩行委員會它的做法是不太一樣的我請部長可以參考一下他們把殺人罪依據動機它分五種類型其中第三類的類型就是我們剛才提到因受譴責動機之殺人所以就是我們剛才提到的仇殺 情殺或者是未裁殺人另外有第五種類型就是極端漠視人命之殺人專門針對"},{"start":13576.152,"end":13594.974,"text":"無差別攻擊這種不特定多數人的下手的犯罪所以第五類型的良型的區分跟第三類型是把它分開的而且同樣屬於最嚴重的等級五個類型我們簡單講就是第一個就是情有可原 可動盡殺人例如長期受虐的反應"},{"start":13595.555,"end":13621.088,"text":"第二種類型是一般動機之殺人例如家庭糾紛 嫉妒第三類型是因受譴責動機之殺人例如剛才提到的為財 為組織利益第四類型是結合其他重罪之殺人跟我提到的第五類型極端漠視人民之殺人所以韓國的制度設計是認為說針對不特定多數人的攻擊本身就是一個極惡的理由"},{"start":13621.528,"end":13641.187,"text":"光是這種漠視人民的態度本身就足夠成為加重量刑的理由所以想請問部長針對這個部分你的看法是什麼樣就是這個問題我們法務部是不是有相關的研究或者說我們現行的架構之下無差別殺人會不會因為缺乏明確的可非難動機在量刑上面沒有得到適當的評價"},{"start":13642.565,"end":13659.964,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想這個量刑是屬於司法院的職長因為它是判決的量刑法務部當然我們會要求檢察官依照相關的規定譬如說我們有一個提示檢查運用求刑 因刑注意四項檢察機關辦理刑事訴訟法因刑注意四項第101條第二項"},{"start":13661.405,"end":13687.913,"text":"第125條以及檢察機關辦理重大刑事案件注意事項第7條的規定 具體求刑我想這個是針對像委員關心的像那些惡性重大或者嚴重妨礙社會治安的像這種隨機殺人這種案件我想這部分我們會再檢討在這些求刑的這部分來做更加的細緻的劃分這部分剛才委員有提到說到底隨機殺人比較可惡還是仇殺比較可惡"},{"start":13689.173,"end":13701.221,"text":"這個可能要見解不同我們但是以製造社會的恐慌的這邊來講那個隨機殺人的確是會引起比較大的嚴重危害影響社會治安這部分我們會更精緻的來做一個檢討"},{"start":13702.405,"end":13726.377,"text":"謝謝部長因為部長我們剛才講到的都是一個是行為樣態那跟動機樣態不太一樣那韓國的方法當然是會把動機的樣態放進去那當然這一部分可能跟這個法務部或者是跟司法院當然各自有各自執掌的範圍那剛才部長是說在你們可以直屬的這種檢查體系下面來去具體求選那在司法院的部分我們是希望"},{"start":13726.997,"end":13736.217,"text":"司法院能夠來去考量到韓國的司法院今天有來不好意思 今天有來不好意思 麻煩也請司法院 對不起"},{"start":13741.009,"end":13766.393,"text":"廷長剛才部長有就他們的體系部分在求刑方面我們是希望說可以從行為樣態考量到動機類型在法務部之外 司法院的看法是怎麼樣在司法院有關於辦理刑事案件量刑的審酌事項裡面我們已經把被害人的多寡被害人的損害程度或是對治安有重大影響部分當成一個重重量刑的因子"},{"start":13766.833,"end":13793.699,"text":"那我再可以舉一個例子在憲判八裡面的理由裡面曾經提到一個歷史什麼叫做情節罪 嚴重之罪它包括了無差別性的殺人它就歷史的這個就是一個沒有動機的無差別性的殺人這一個是屬於最嚴重情節最嚴重之罪的一個歷史情形所以他剛剛委員所指教的說因為仇殺 那當然是一個謀殺那個當然是情節嚴重但是如果是無差別性他也是把它當成一個情節嚴重之罪你知道嗎"},{"start":13795.06,"end":13799.67,"text":"謝謝 謝謝廷長那接下來我們請這個警政署我們簡單的快速來針對異常犯罪的統計的政策規劃我們快速來請教"},{"start":13813.002,"end":13829.522,"text":"主長好主長我們針對這個韓國的刑事政策研究院他們在2004年初2023年底他有發了一個研究報告他是針對異常動機犯罪進行這個類型化的分析一樣他分成三類型第一個是社會不滿型占16.7%"},{"start":13831.204,"end":13855.035,"text":"犯罪者是對社會是有敵意憂鬱的狀態第二種是持續憤怒型是46%但是犯罪者容易誤解他人在憤怒中犯案其中40%有6次以上的前科所以這是數字從數字上面來去做政策的研擬第三種是精神障礙大概是37.5%這個分類的意思就是說我們不同類型需要不同的預防的策略"},{"start":13856.736,"end":13871.214,"text":"如果像是社會不滿行我們可能就要用資源政策透過社區外展把這些人拉回社會持續Funding就是有犯罪前科要參考英國的多機關公共保護安排我想請教一下我們現在的相關的統計數據是怎麼樣有這樣類似的區分嗎"},{"start":13876.745,"end":13905.479,"text":"報告委員這個相關的數據我們可能回去要再做一個統計我沒有要數據我是要有沒有相關的區分因為說如果我們的統計數據都沒有這樣的區分的話那我們政策工具就很難去執行也就是說現在警政系統有沒有針對無差別攻擊或異常動機犯罪有沒有獨立的統計分類還是之後被歸類為一般傷害罪一般的傷害罪裡面我想這個要有一個統計的數據就是說我們依刑法罪的分類裡面有沒有獨立的無差別攻擊的類別"},{"start":13907.116,"end":13927.033,"text":"我們在做犯罪紀錄的時候都會做一個分類犯罪紀錄包括犯罪動機的類型的有沒有備註去欄位我剛剛提到這些因為是比較細部的犯罪就是我剛剛提到至少有三種不同的類型我們希望說除了說無差別攻擊這些之外我們更細部裡面要把它的犯罪類型"},{"start":13927.734,"end":13952.935,"text":"把它做一個更細部的統整我們才知道說以後不是只有警政署的工作哪些是跟衛福部相關哪些跟社會相關的局處相關什麼是縣市政府能夠幫助的什麼可以關乎的我們才可以把它統整起來這樣做有效的要有工具有政策的工具我們才可以做全方位的來去防治好不好再麻煩可不可以給我一點書面就是現在的分類的狀況跟一些數據如同韓國這樣子好不好 謝謝"},{"start":13957.059,"end":13961.481,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員那接下來我們請賴氏寶委員發言謝謝主席以及各位親戚有請法務部的政務部長好 請政務部長法務部政務部長還有我們警政署的長官"},{"start":13987.489,"end":14012.639,"text":"還有司法院的長官好不好司法院長官 李廳長是吧對 司法院是李廳長那內政部的話是組長跟執政監先請教這個應該警聖署吧社委法方面社委法方面你們要修一個東西變成說善不仇恨的言論關三天罰三萬罰三萬關三天"},{"start":14017.331,"end":14042.511,"text":"這個外界對這個很有意見結論是要不要講一下外界對這個很有意見就變成你們行政權無限擴大到什麼叫仇恨式的言論你這個界定就不清楚這個來講的話就變成是行政的一個裁量權他認為你散佈仇恨你就散佈仇恨怕三萬就關三天"},{"start":14043.937,"end":14054.968,"text":"會不會這個以後變成這樣子只要罵到你們長官有人批評你們就要被關3天跑3萬好不好講一下可以嗎報告委員 修法的這些法律用語可以做各方面的廣泛的一個討論可以做更精準的定位"},{"start":14066.749,"end":14093.381,"text":"不是啊 你們不清不楚啊來 請華為部的市長那個 要 鄭部長 鄭部長你講一下 他這個立法你們會不會覺得這個行政權太大了這個行政裁量權太大了而且還可以直接有網路上有這樣的言語馬上把它移掉就變成數位中介法的這個護屁變成直接管網路不要忘了全世界敢去管網路"},{"start":14094.221,"end":14107.393,"text":"的平台只有共產國家看管我們什麼時候數位中介法在立法院沒辦法給你們通過你們就散佈在別的地方現在等於賴17條賴清德17條所謂的國安17條一條一條的一個落實下來啊那這個地方是行政權獨大我就請教政部長這個用字會不會太太粗糙不夠精緻會不會"},{"start":14118.184,"end":14143.082,"text":"這個是法制上的一個問題那因為這個法是屬於內政部主管法規我們是尊重內政部的一個立法你們法務部要有一件嗎那這是屬於那個法制上的一個用字遣詞的問題剛才有委員提到了是不是可以請那個這個是要因為我沒辦法去幫內政部去回答這個問題內政部長官沒有在做 警政署警政署"},{"start":14144.045,"end":14148.308,"text":"請律師再回來 你現在怎麼樣 你答案是不是沒有答案是不是這個以後還可以再做一個討論我現在跟你們講 幾位長官聽好了你們這樣這麼籠統的仇恨式言論這幾個字我就告訴你們這個就是思想犯言論犯思想犯"},{"start":14170.192,"end":14185.908,"text":"訴諸於文字的話就被文字獄了仇恨什麼叫仇恨罵官員就仇恨啊以後你把戒毒 我的戒毒就是仇恨的言論就是罵民進黨的官員就仇恨要罰三萬灌三天就變這樣子啊"},{"start":14189.41,"end":14212.224,"text":"這幾位長官你們聽好 這個東西這麼的一個擴權這個叫行政擴權 而且網路管理的擴權就管網路 管人民的言論 基本上都一樣的意思我覺得很悲哀 何啟何死 陳啟何死我們已經變成一個 快要變成一個真的是獨裁國家行政權要獨大 立法局統統沒有你要真的講 認真講 一定要很明確"},{"start":14215.424,"end":14238.737,"text":"部長我請教你是不是有個叫罪刑法定主義對不對罪刑法是屬於刑法這個是屬於行政法這個跟罪刑法定沒有關係這個是另外一個範疇的問題那另外這部分應該不是法務部我知道啦那就因為它裡面這個要請內政部的來做一個不然罪刑法定主義這部分應該司法院來講一下好不好司法官講一下司法院聽長講一下你聽長要講一下"},{"start":14244.117,"end":14266.892,"text":"這個可能涉及到處罰的明確性原則的問題他不明確嘛對不對這個我們可能在什麼叫我問你仇恨誓言論什麼叫仇恨誓言論你告訴我這個主責機關是應該是我們內政部主責但是我們那你法院啊你判啊不是嗎那是刑審廳的問題我們刑事審計廳的問題而且這個不需要經過審判直接可以罰直接可以關"},{"start":14274.757,"end":14287.902,"text":"對 那個是行政法院那邊的行政庭處理的跟我們刑事庭可能比較沒有關係所以大家就推一跳牌舞了內政部的主責機關主責機關內政部的代專委內政部代專委有沒有內政部你們要管這個事啊"},{"start":14296.004,"end":14321.424,"text":"你們管這個法條沒有報告委員 我們是內政務民政司所以沒有管這個 對 是好吧 就誤捕到了 今天誤捕到這個東西來 我就看喔 那個其他長官請回喔 那個政部長其他長官都請回 我就留政部長下來其他長官可以回去喔你看喔 我們看過去的數字其他長官請回 就剩政部長"},{"start":14325.533,"end":14346.53,"text":"歷屆總統 陳水扁當總統執行槍決的實行32人馬英九的時候執行33人蔡英文執行2個賴清德總統現在 ongoing 他只執行1個這一個是不是你執行的 鄭部長是不是"},{"start":14348.104,"end":14375.987,"text":"是今年1月份今年1月是你執行的嗎1月份你為什麼那時候敢執行你的什麼條件以下執行這部分有經過那個最高檢察署的一個審核之後認為這件沒有其他救濟的一個法定救濟的一個好 我們現在就來談這個問題喔大家都了解民進黨有廢死黨綱啊他的行動綱領第26條明明白白講言喻廢死可信性我們再看下一頁"},{"start":14378.439,"end":14385.414,"text":"所以你們在配合了這個去年的九月份的時候這個這個"},{"start":14389.649,"end":14415.795,"text":"憲法法庭8號的解釋已經實施廢止了我們都知道究竟的有非常上述在審憲法法庭是不是這三個都走完了你才會執行槍決是不是這樣子看那個死刑犯他有沒有提出這些的救濟機會每一個都在提 怎麼沒有他那個一定會提所以這部分的確是要走完這些的程序現在還有幾個沒有執行的"},{"start":14419.036,"end":14433.567,"text":"36 36位沒有執行大家都還在做這個嗎這部分我們也希望就是說司法院這部分能夠在程序上這部分能夠因為有些都要跟司法院做一個救濟那個高院或者是最高法院或者是憲法法庭"},{"start":14434.648,"end":14453.919,"text":"那這部分如果說走完的話有做一些的程序走完那當然我們這部分就會合乎到整個一個執行的一個我們就會執行我請教你那個要執行是不是法務部長簽字就可以執行是不是那個他經過很多的審核那要層層的審核嘛也不要聽總統的指示這個跟總統沒關係就你執行這個執行要經過"},{"start":14461.864,"end":14471.987,"text":"如果所以這樣講起來的話應該他有救濟的機會他當然會程序上來我告訴你啦民進黨執政就不可能就是這個樣子啦整個賴清德執行今年執行那個一個人槍決一鼠比鼠鳥啦你看好了因為黨綱寫這麼清楚行動綱領第26條"},{"start":14480.629,"end":14483.452,"text":"而且民進黨都在搞廢死基本上就是他黨綱裡面就有廢死所以他不是兩個神主牌以前說兩個神主牌一個是非核 一個是台獨另外加一個廢死三個 第三張的或者兩個半的神主牌"},{"start":14495.982,"end":14520.301,"text":"清清楚楚看得到但是社會上是很反感的社會上反費時高達八成以上那對於治亂適用重點其實社會上還是滿期待的然後我們看最後一題我就一小題而已就在昨天菲律賓正式生效不是 那個新加坡對不起 講錯了新加坡正式生效詐騙犯強制編刑6到24下"},{"start":14525.56,"end":14544.436,"text":"它裡面 cover 的程度是什麼cover 是核心成員或者招募者 車手這些只要有關的 或者提供假帳戶的這些人通通要編刑6到24下 這個最有效這個最有效這個因為我已經提出來了這個詐騙犯了 就給他編刑你們法務部看到這樣"},{"start":14548.17,"end":14569.438,"text":"這部分跟委員報告這部分有納入刑法修正會議來做一個討論那這邊當然不是法務部要怎麼做就怎麼做這還要邀請學者專家跟檢審便等專家學者來做一個嚴厲討論那這部分其實還要再廣大社會意見那目前我們是在評估它那個可行性"},{"start":14570.259,"end":14574.743,"text":"大概要多久時間可以出來半年半年可以嗎半年可以嗎開幾次公聽會 開幾次研討會就夠了啊對不對 這個事情你就去好好的去新加坡昨天生效的以前邊警不是針對這個跟其他人正式針對詐騙案"},{"start":14592.139,"end":14610.508,"text":"它的核心 它的外圍 它的旁邊的一些全部納進來 要邊形6到24下很可怕的大概3下就開花了 屁股就開花了它6到24下 這個東西這個社會知識度其實很高的這個詐騙犯給邊形"},{"start":14614.728,"end":14632.838,"text":"事後高達七成的台灣老百姓是支持的因為我們什麼打詐打了半天打了半天我們一年還是一千億的詐騙金額而且就警政署我開了公聽會我都好難過每次我影在這個宿舍看著"},{"start":14633.698,"end":14648.395,"text":"退休的老夫妻兩個把老本全部被騙走2000萬被騙走2000萬另外一對1000萬都被騙了然後警政署的長官說這個喔要追回來大概一年以上追回來多少 10%"},{"start":14650.905,"end":14663.568,"text":"最多10%所以大概就沒有了一片就是沒有了因為它馬上轉到國外去了大家對這個生物痛覺這個炸片飯生物痛覺然後你們現在搞得搞得雞背狗跳搞得現在"},{"start":14665.43,"end":14678.304,"text":"銀行今天金管會的長官沒有在這裡對銀行來講我這句話講完就下來對銀行他明明金管會規定50萬就要問你來源問你什麼結果現在20萬就問了問東問西 問東問西這樣問了大家"},{"start":14682.128,"end":14684.63,"text":"有人就給我反應了我的帳的錢轉到另外我的帳的錢也要被問了30分鐘轉20萬新台幣也要20分鐘因為這個是跟委員報告的確是因為我們是聯防的機制因為的確是銀行他們也就是說"},{"start":14701.039,"end":14712.222,"text":"對民眾保護他的財產多問啦多提醒我自己轉到我自己帳戶也要問 奇怪咧從這個帳轉到另外一個帳 也要問30分鐘因為這個其實可以幫民眾攔阻了很多的轉到我的帳戶去攔阻什麼後來因為委員你應該有如願的去做一些的不是我的錢啦"},{"start":14723.864,"end":14749.637,"text":"那個朋友的話因為我想包括長輩都會碰到這種問題甚至我們本身都會碰到這種問題我強調的重點是在於我要強調的重點就是我們對詐騙犯太寬鬆了然後因為要反詐打詐引起很多的不便都拉把心情吸收社會成本太高了跑步這方面認真去研究啦邊行進入好啦進入好啦好好去研究啦謝謝委員好 謝謝賴委員"},{"start":14754.051,"end":14757.232,"text":"那接下来我们请谢一凤委员发言好谢谢主席我想请法务部的政部长跟司法院里厅长好再有请法政部长里厅长"},{"start":14781.28,"end":14795.256,"text":"委員好早安我想要了解的是無差別的攻擊這樣子就是當然我知道說定刑度的是法務部然後就是判刑的是司法院但是在"},{"start":14796.457,"end":14815.264,"text":"第一个就是说对于犯罪的发生有很多民众都认为说就是刑度太低的问题那就这一起案件来说如果今天这个张文被抓到那他所判的刑度是什么沈部长"},{"start":14815.882,"end":14829.362,"text":"他那個是會觸犯271條他那個是殺人者處死刑無期徒刑或4年以上有期徒刑他可以處死刑可以處死刑是不是那司法院會怎麼判"},{"start":14830.417,"end":14858.425,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們有統計從109年到現在大概有十件無差別的攻擊案件大概我們有六件是判處死刑有人死掉的有人死掉有六件是有人死掉的那有兩件是判處死刑有四件是判無期徒刑那這樣子如果造成了非常多的人員的傷亡那在於就是審理的過程當中會不會更快速"},{"start":14862.889,"end":14872.56,"text":"是不是因為說從過去以來這樣子無差別的攻擊在省度的時候因為"},{"start":14874.002,"end":14888.548,"text":"沒有很快的有一個判刑的決定以及即便是判處死刑之後那都有這麼多就是說救濟的管道導致執行的期間又更長"},{"start":14890.028,"end":14907.026,"text":"那對於民眾而言會不會啟而效之模仿或者是造成一些無辜的受害者像一般的民眾所遭受到的這樣子一個危險跟風險更高呢"},{"start":14911.566,"end":14932.88,"text":"這個問題我們這個其實非常可惡那這個遇到這種隨機殺人把人殺死的這一種我們一定會求死刑那這一種的話那我們會整個因為監督法院在這個案件的那個我們會會極力這個除了死刑之外我們認為是沒辦法原諒的因為其實"},{"start":14935.162,"end":14954.378,"text":"為什麼要就教於兩位就是現在有非常多的罪犯他們認為就如同剛才前面有委員提到的詐騙那他們認為刑度以及法院的審理那是不是對於這個犯罪沒有辦法有效的嚇阻那"},{"start":14955.759,"end":14965.664,"text":"對於說如果像詐騙那新加坡現在提出邊行我們除了邊行還有沒有什麼其他更好的方式"},{"start":14967.846,"end":14987.783,"text":"這部分像那個詐騙這部分跟委員報告那部分因為整個民眾是有就是要重判那這部分我們有一個良心的一個標準這個我都要求各地檢署各檢察檢察長對這一種的顯然判決的行動不合乎我們社會的期待要上訴那另外還有定執行就是說"},{"start":14988.584,"end":15011.299,"text":"不要說騙越多次變成定情形越輕就一件判一年兩年就判兩件就加一個月那這種的這種如果說判決有這種的情形我們都會要求檢查這樣再要審查要上訴這一定要讓回復到民眾的期待而且讓這些詐騙詐騙這些嫌犯這些被告讓他划不來"},{"start":15016.102,"end":15030.279,"text":"那些詐騙你也享受不到那這些你也划不到那你覺得新加坡現在採取邊形我說他採取邊形對犯罪有沒有效惡主那因為現在其實詐騙案這麼多對於"},{"start":15036.346,"end":15056.604,"text":"所有的檢察官也好法官也好造成了非常多工作的壓力那對於社會大眾也是啊還有對於檢警調等等都是這樣子的那請問一下你認為新加坡的邊行對於這樣子的詐騙的嚇阻"},{"start":15058.724,"end":15074.31,"text":"這邊還要再做一個觀察因為新加坡被騙的金額也是蠻多的也是蠻多他新加坡詐騙也是很嚴重那因為我想這個邊形這個還要再做一個討論因為這兩公會這是不是有問事完他一定會有講說這是一個酷刑的疑慮"},{"start":15075.49,"end":15099.3,"text":"那这部分我想我们的手段都很多我们现在修法有加重这样的一个处罚那另外在落实个案这部分我们现在要求一定要从中度型去求刑去求刑让他把他关在牢里关在牢里然后我们再来做一个教化那在假释这部分我们是严审假释那个其他比较其他的犯罪的假释的这部分我们比这些"},{"start":15100.22,"end":15112.126,"text":"最嚴重而且他一定要跟被害人做一個調和解賠償那個損害嘛那不會賠償損害這部分我們就在就不會那你覺得這樣子的方式有沒有辦法減輕整個我是認為現在根本包括現在整個有下降的趨勢這些人起訴現在法院也開始判重了那我們給他生壓現在我們剛剛委員會關心像我們那個監所那個都超縮就是因為"},{"start":15129.4,"end":15152.55,"text":"我們都是因為法院的支持所以看搜索這邊真的是都有嚴重的超收我想這邊如果判決速度快一點的話可以到監獄去關起來我想最高峰現在已經有下降的一個趨勢了我想判決判中一點然後在整個一個假釋的審查這邊我們更加的有嚴格"},{"start":15153.11,"end":15175.543,"text":"看他有沒有去賠償被害人的損害如果被害人的損失有賠償的話這部分我們才會比較考慮給他做一個假釋的門檻那需要多久的時間才能看到效果目前是有看到效果因為對於整體的案件要大幅度的下降那因為才能夠紓解第一個民眾的受害的機會還有"},{"start":15176.603,"end":15202.063,"text":"就是說希望能夠讓所有都不會因為這個案件減緊掉都是工作壓力加重其他的東西都沒有辦法做現在委員會很關心很了解這個問題很專業但是請委員放心現在我們今年11月份跟去年11月份的比較受理件數已經減了四分之一了另外財損金額也降了52%了"},{"start":15204.085,"end":15221.503,"text":"那我想這個趨勢是一個反轉的趨勢已經在下降了那我想明年我們今天是最後一天明年我相信這個我們可以看到這個趨勢應該一直在降低那經過這次的努力的一個打造我相信成果是有呈現出來那我跟委員補充我們其實剛才那個"},{"start":15223.825,"end":15236.674,"text":"賴委員有提到銀行端像我們跟銀行端有一個預警的機制像我們台北地檢署辦一件那個斬金專案那件也是從銀行端提供的那些可疑賬戶我們去發展的案件那一件"},{"start":15238.195,"end":15256.486,"text":"被告被告我們那個被害人我們抓到了我們被害人我們查到有幾千人那財損金的高達200億那台中有一件神說集團那一件被害金的四字姬我們扣到了多少扣到了三十幾億所以這部分有反轉的跡象所以委員如果說有信我們可以提供更詳細的"},{"start":15256.886,"end":15271.801,"text":"我知道說當然我們希望說不要有這樣的案件發生還有就是說因為就是一般的民眾因為這樣子相關的偵查那大家在銀行轉帳上面的確都會遭遇到這樣子的問題"},{"start":15272.802,"end":15293.138,"text":"就是說很多民眾都不翻其說那當然為了要保護這些被詐騙就是不要有人再被詐騙當然這是銀行需要提供的這個我們希望銀行可以提供這樣子的一個稽查的方式那當然最後我再問剛好鄭部長在這裡就是說我們彰化縣的那個調查站"},{"start":15294.56,"end":15319.063,"text":"你不知道有沒有去看過有去看過 那個很危險喔對啊 在那個八卦山的那個有點傾斜了那籃球上都傾斜了因為底下的民眾也會擔心說這個調查站如果往下滑的時候會造成民眾的相關的安全的這樣的問題那是不是因為他們已經計畫搬到彰化市了是不是可以給予他們預算的協助"},{"start":15319.603,"end":15339.561,"text":"這部分是不是說我們預算因為它只有中長期的一個預算計畫所以我們也希望說預算能夠趕緊審過或者的話不然會停下來好 那先編嘛 對不對先編 它那個有編它那個是算我們法務部第一優先的排第一名的那個很危險的真的是謝謝委員關心好 謝謝好 謝謝謝委員"},{"start":15345.981,"end":15362.754,"text":"好 那接下來我們再請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在沈發慧委員 沈發慧委員沈發慧委員不在楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在好 那今天所有登記發言"},{"start":15364.349,"end":15384.469,"text":"的委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束那委員質詢的時候要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者也請相關機關盡速送交個別委員以及本會那麼許新穎審發會跟林慶祺委員所提的書面質詢都列入記錄並且刊登公報"},{"start":15385.728,"end":15398.241,"text":"也請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議我們就進行到此討論事項就做如下的決議另定期繼續審查我們現在散會謝謝各位官員還有各位委員"}]}},{"id":"166761","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166761","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb12be46332e07a849ab1ecef7239bdfb16d53fbbf289ff3135be8a7296b23f08fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:25:17 - 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請正部長法務部正部長還有我們警政署的長官還有司法院的長官好不好司法院長官李廳長是吧對 司法院是李廳長那內政部的話是組長跟警政監先請教"},{"start":39.985,"end":52.26,"text":"這個應該謹慎 社維法方面社維法方面你們要修一個東西變成說善不仇恨的言論關三天罰三萬罰三萬關三天這個外界對這個很有意見"},{"start":59.459,"end":84.872,"text":"檢證所要不要講一下 外界對這個很有意見就變你們行政權無限擴大到什麼叫仇恨式的言論你這個界定就不清楚啦這個來講的話就變成是行政的一個裁量權他認為你散播仇恨你就散播仇恨怕三萬就關三天會不會這個以後變成這樣子只要罵到"},{"start":86.257,"end":92.984,"text":"你們長官有人批評你們就要被關三天跑上萬好不好 請教書報告委員 修法的這些法律用語可以做各方面的廣泛的一個討論可以做更精準的定位"},{"start":104.77,"end":122.066,"text":"不是啊 你們不清不楚啊來 請華為部的市長 欸 那個 鄭部長 鄭部長你講一下 他這個立法 你們會不會覺得這個行政權太大了 這個行政裁量權太大了而且還可以直接 網路上有這樣的言語馬上把它移掉"},{"start":123.087,"end":138.631,"text":"就變成數位終界法的這個護屁變成直接管網路不要忘了全世界敢去管網路的平台只有共產國家能管我們什麼時候數位終界法在立法院"},{"start":139.151,"end":145.376,"text":"沒辦法給你們通過 你們就散佈在別的地方現在等於賴17條 賴清德17條所謂的國安17條一條一條的一個落實下來啊那這個地方是行政權獨大 我就請教政部長這個用字會不會太粗糙 不夠精緻會不會"},{"start":156.203,"end":181.089,"text":"這個是法制上的一個問題那因為這個法是屬於內政部主管法規我們是尊重內政部的一個立法你們法務部要有一件嗎那這是屬於那個法制上的一個用字請辭的問題剛才有委員提到了是不是可以請那個 這個是要因為我沒辦法去幫內政部去回答這個問題內政部專管沒有在做 警政署 警政署"},{"start":182.185,"end":205.22,"text":"請律師再回來 你現在怎麼樣 你答案是不是沒有答案是不是這個以後還可以再做一個討論我現在跟你們講啦幾位長官聽好啦你們這樣這麼籠統的仇恨式言論這幾個字啊我就告訴你們這個就是思想犯啦言論犯思想犯"},{"start":208.215,"end":223.926,"text":"諸諸於文字的話就變文字獄了仇恨什麼叫仇恨罵官員就仇恨啊以後你把戒毒我都戒毒就是仇恨的言論就是罵民進黨的官員就仇恨要爬山灣灌三天就變這樣子啊"},{"start":227.433,"end":250.458,"text":"這幾位長官你們聽好 這個東西這麼的一個擴權這個叫行政擴權 而且網路管理的擴權就管網路 管人民的言論 基本上都一樣的意思我覺得很悲哀 何啟何死 陳啟何死我們已經變成一個 快要變成一個真的是獨裁國家行政權要獨大 立法局統統沒有你要真的講 認真講 一定要很明確"},{"start":253.444,"end":276.757,"text":"不知道我請教你是不是有個叫罪刑法定主義對不對罪刑法是屬於刑法這個是屬於行政法這個跟罪刑法定沒有關係這個是另外一個範疇的問題那另外這部分應該不是法務部我知道啦那就因為它裡面這個要請內政部的來做一個不然罪刑法定主義這部分應該司法院來講一下好不好來 司法官講一下司法院聽長講一下你聽長要講一下"},{"start":282.134,"end":300.707,"text":"這個可能涉及到處罰的明確性原則的問題他不明確嘛對不對這個我們可能在什麼叫我問你仇恨誓言論什麼叫仇恨誓言論你告訴我這個主責機關是應該是我們內政部主責但是我們那你法院啊你判啊不是嗎那是刑審廳的問題我們刑事審計廳的問題而且這個不需要經過審判直接可以罰直接可以關"},{"start":312.775,"end":325.763,"text":"對 那個是行政法院那邊的 行政庭處理的跟我們刑事庭可能比較沒有關係所以大家就推一特派服了齁內政部的 主責聽 主責 主政機關內政部的代專委內政部代專委有沒有內政部 你們要管這個事啊"},{"start":334.025,"end":359.447,"text":"你們有管這個法條沒有報告委員 我們是內政務民政司所以沒有管這個 對 是好吧 就誤捕到了 今天誤捕到這個東西來 我就看喔 那個其他長官請回喔 那個正部長其他長官都請回 我就留正部長下來其他長官可以回去喔你看喔 我們看過去的數字其他長官請回 就剩正部長"},{"start":363.553,"end":384.748,"text":"歷屆總統 陳水扁當總統執行槍決的實行32人馬英九的時候執行33人蔡英文執行2個賴清德總統現在 ongoing 他只執行1個這一個是不是你執行的 鄭部長是不是"},{"start":386.123,"end":414.068,"text":"是今年一月 今年一月是你執行的嗎一月份你為什麼那時候敢執行 你的什麼條件下執行這部分有經過那個最高檢察署的一個審核之後認為這件沒有其他救濟的一個法定救濟的一個好 我們現在就來談這個問題喔大家都了解 民進黨有廢死檔綱啊他的行動綱領第26條明明白白講 延避廢死可行性我們再看下一頁"},{"start":416.46,"end":423.437,"text":"所以你們在配合了這個去年的九月份的時候這個這個"},{"start":427.669,"end":453.827,"text":"憲法法庭8號的機制已經實施廢止了那我們都知道究竟的有非常上述在審憲法法庭是不是這三個都走完了你才會執行槍決就要看那個死刑犯他有沒有提出這些的救濟機會每一個都在提啊 怎麼沒有呢他那個一定會提嘛所以這部分的確是要走完這些的程序現在還有幾個沒有執行的"},{"start":457.136,"end":482.623,"text":"36 36位沒有執行大家都還在做這個嗎這部分我們也希望就是說司法院這部分能夠在程序上這部分能夠因為有些都要跟司法院做一個救濟嘛那個高院或者是最高法院或者是憲法法庭那這部分如果說走完的話有做一些的程序走完那當然我們這部分就會合乎到整個一個執行的一個我們就會執行"},{"start":483.403,"end":493.813,"text":"我請教你 那個要執行是不是法務部長簽字就可以執行 是不是那個他經過很多的審核 那要層層的審核嘛也不要聽總統的指示這個跟總統沒關係 就你執行這個執行要經過 如果這樣講起來的話應該他有救濟的機會 他當然會程序上來我告訴你啦"},{"start":506.764,"end":525.418,"text":"民進黨執政就不可能 就是這個樣子啦這個賴清德執行 今年執行那個一個人槍決一鼠比鼠娘啦你看好了因為黨綱寫這麼清楚行動綱領第26條而且民進黨都在搞廢死基本上就是他黨綱裡面就有廢死啊所以他不是兩個神主牌以前說兩個神主牌一個是"},{"start":527.319,"end":545.206,"text":"非核一個是台獨另外加一個FACE三個第三張的或者兩個半的神豬牌清清楚楚看得到但是社會上是很反感的社會上反FACE高達八成以上那對於治亂適用重點其實社會上還是蠻期待的然後我們看最後一題我就一小題而已"},{"start":550.968,"end":559.123,"text":"就在昨天 菲律賓正式生效不是 那個新加坡 對不起 講錯了新加坡正式生效詐騙犯強制鞭刑6到24下"},{"start":563.581,"end":582.625,"text":"它裡面 Cover 的程度是什麼Cover 是核心成員或者招募者 車手這些只要有關的 或者提供假帳戶的這些人通通要編刑6 到 24 下 這個最有效這個最有效這個我已經提出來了這個詐騙犯了 就給他編刑你們法務部看出怎樣"},{"start":586.191,"end":607.49,"text":"這部分跟委員報告這部分有納入刑法修正會議來做一個討論那這邊當然不是法務部要怎麼做就怎麼做這還要邀請學者專家跟檢審便等專家學者來做一個嚴厲討論那這部分其實還要再廣大社會意見那目前我們是在評估它那個可行性"},{"start":608.29,"end":612.752,"text":"大概要多久時間可以出來 半年半年可以嗎 半年可以嗎開幾次公聽會 開幾次研討會就夠了啊對不對 這事情你就去 好好去新加坡昨天生效的 以前邊警不是針對這個跟其他人正式針對詐騙案"},{"start":630.16,"end":648.549,"text":"它的核心 它的外圍 它的旁邊的一些全部納進來 要邊形6到24下很可怕的大概3下就開花了 屁股就開花了它6到24下 這東西這個這個社會知識度其實很高的這個詐騙犯給邊形"},{"start":652.748,"end":670.858,"text":"事後高達七成的台灣老百姓是支持的因為我們什麼打炸打了半天啊打了半天我們一年還是一千億的詐騙金額而且就警政署我開了公聽會啊我都好難過每次我影在這個宿舍啊看著"},{"start":671.718,"end":686.42,"text":"退休的老夫妻兩個把老本全部一樣被騙走2000萬被騙走2000萬另外一對1000萬都被騙了然後警政署的長官說這個喔要追回來大概一年以上追回來多少 10%"},{"start":688.925,"end":701.341,"text":"最多10%所以大概就沒有了一片就是沒有了因為他馬上轉到國外去了大家對這個生物痛覺啊這個炸片飯生物痛覺然後你們現在搞得搞得雞背狗跳搞得現在"},{"start":703.451,"end":719.225,"text":"銀行今天金管會的長官沒有在這裡對銀行來講我這句話講完就下來喔對銀行他明明金管會規定五十萬就要問你來源問你什麼結果現在二十萬就問了問東問西 問東問西這樣問了大家"},{"start":720.146,"end":722.408,"text":"有人就給我做什麼反應了我的帳的錢轉到另外我的帳的錢也要被問了30分鐘耶轉20萬新台幣也要20分鐘因為這個是跟委員報告的確是因為我們是聯防的機制啦因為的確是銀行他們也就是說"},{"start":739.061,"end":750.252,"text":"對民眾保護他的財產多問啦多提醒我自己轉到我自己帳戶也要問 奇怪咧從這個帳轉到另外一個帳 也要問30分鐘這個其實可以幫民眾攔阻了很多的轉到我的帳戶去攔阻什麼後來因為委員你應該有如願的去做一些的不是我的錢啦"},{"start":761.884,"end":787.681,"text":"那個朋友的話 因為我想包括長輩都會碰到這種問題甚至我們本身都會碰到這種問題因為他都被當作洗錢的我要強調的重點就是我們對詐騙犯太寬鬆了然後因為要反詐打詐引起很多的不便都拉把心情吸收 社會成本太高了跑步這方面 認真去研究啦邊行進入好啦 進入好啦 好好去研究啦好 謝謝委員好 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農業的部分我們看還有電子商務我們就這幾個來看我們看到"},{"start":300.52,"end":303.143,"text":"這個除了服務類科他的達成率比較高以外我們的製造業我們開的班數是也非常高因為他在對於我們國內的需求量其實是非常的必要可是我們開這麼多"},{"start":317.915,"end":321.217,"text":"我們的達成率應該也還沒達到標準大概只有78%我們希望就這個部分它的問題點在哪裡也應該再去做考量另外比較嚴重的部分就營造業跟長照看護的部分雖然我們這麼欠缺可是我們卻都只"},{"start":336.744,"end":352.967,"text":"只有一校或者兩校可是都只開一班在我們這麼欠缺的情況之下為什麼這麼多的學校我們卻只開一班那還有農業的部分這個看起來也還符合我們的需求那就這些我們"},{"start":354.388,"end":378.536,"text":"要請委員長看看因為看護的部分招生達成率其實只有31%那怎麼樣解讀這個職業類別的這個招生狀況為什麼他的開班率的這麼低的原因跟委員報告在營造業的部分因為願意開的學校是很少就是說在過往我們"},{"start":381.697,"end":396.647,"text":"這個技高端的學校開營造業的比例確實是不多然後所以有意願要開營造業班的目前確實是只有一校一班那這個結構我就不用多說那有關於長照的這個部分有關於機構看護我們確實是希望能夠廣設"},{"start":400.47,"end":414.325,"text":"所以現在這個在技高端偏少但是在技專端就逐漸在增加也就是這些科技型大學的比較多由於機構看護是一個比較跟人密切接觸的訓練所以學生的這個"},{"start":418.61,"end":423.374,"text":"我們在招募的過程當中現在目前的兩校都沒有得到非常好的成績我們也在跟他們討論他們是說海外學生對這個領域比較不感興趣所以"},{"start":435.345,"end":439.166,"text":"委員長我們發現問題就在這裡其實我們給學校他們在招生上面其實是很欠缺的因為我們如果說有些學校他不願意配合甚至我們也可以考慮到其他學校我們不能學校提什麼我們就讓他只是給學生填什麼"},{"start":453.15,"end":457.892,"text":"因為這樣還是限縮我們原來制定這樣子的一個僑生教育的一個主要的宗旨還有對我們國內可能產業相輔相成這樣的一個目標方向所以就這個部分我們希望可以有儘速一個調整的一個方案出來因為我們看到這個另外就是在勞動部的政策上面它對於外國中階技術人力的技術條件其實它是可以長期留下來的"},{"start":479.518,"end":496.193,"text":"所以就这个部分我们可以看到因为包括像社福类的还有这个产业类的我们现在说我们很欠缺可是我们希望在学校里面就可以让他们很清楚的知道尤其是在他们的国家里面我们要去招生的时候很清楚让他知道如果他可以得到"},{"start":499.716,"end":519.171,"text":"相關的證照他的薪資可以達到多少甚至可以留在我們國內做比較長期的一個服務我相信這樣對於一些招生的誘因也會比較高這顯然我們好像沒有看到學校對於這一方面證照的輔導有做這樣子的一個努力這個部分是不是可以再強化"},{"start":519.96,"end":524.643,"text":"好謝謝委員的建議我也覺得這個是很好的方向我們也會加強甚至補助學校說學生要考證照我們都可以給學生補助那個證照考試來強化他們的誘因對希望可以讓他們有時間去取得證照因為要拿證照其實還是要有實務的經驗還有在學理上面就是可能這方面都要平均的有增長的一個機會不要說像大家指引的大概來會變成是打工的性質"},{"start":550.12,"end":569.004,"text":"這也不是我們樂見的那這個部分我們希望他可以儘速的可以做一個調整或者方案再提供給我們委員會參考另外就一點點時間因為我們上一次之前也都有提過中國大陸之前開孔子學院那因為有政治的考量所以很多歐美國家其實就已經排除"},{"start":572.045,"end":576.969,"text":"不希望他做這樣的一個設置可是他們改成魯班工坊來接棒那這個對於他們有什麼樣的好處其實我們可以看到他的成果好像已經顯現出來了就這個部分因為他在魯班工坊的這個"},{"start":592.583,"end":612.459,"text":"藉這個名義除了打著技能培訓還有肩負文化交流的任務還有建立海外職業教育的平台我們看到他在近年其實可以看到透過這樣技能教育深化人文的理解塑造他學技能懂中國的合作型模式他已經幫中國"},{"start":616.209,"end":638.475,"text":"整個國家比如說像輸出設備比如說像它的標準規格的訂定或者形成技術及教育鏈的這個雙輸出也加深這些國家其實在技術體系上對於大陸的依賴這個已經越來越明顯甚至在歐洲地區比如說葡萄牙跟英國也建立了融入當地職業教育體系的根據地所以顯然我們在這一部分我們的努力"},{"start":644.517,"end":652.926,"text":"看到很多我們也有一些可能出去做一些交流可是我們看到我們雖然很熱鬧可是我們沒有辦法把我們的規格標準甚至我們的人文可以很有效的把它留在當地或者我們可以做什麼樣有效的輸出或者更把當地的"},{"start":664.138,"end":665.72,"text":"中低階的這樣一個人才可以引進國內我想這個可能也是我們必須要在這個競爭的狀態底下怎麼樣去做努力的一個方向這個部分也請提出比較具體的做法在明年好 謝謝"},{"start":679.435,"end":684.12,"text":"謝謝委員提供這個訊息那魯班工坊我的了解主要是在這個東南亞國家而且他成立的時間其實是比我們晚很多反而是我們的技職教育在海外可能在某些國家已經達到某一些口碑了所以他們也意識到說這個是一個可以發展的方向"},{"start":701.298,"end":715.383,"text":"那事實上孔子學院是在做高等教育大學裡面那魯班工坊是在做技職教育部分那所以由於我們的技職專班在海外有一點已經有一點市場跟名號所以他們近年來也想要模仿類似的模式不過委員剛剛提醒的這件事情我們會加強來了解進一步來改善因為既然是技職像我們剛剛講的他的設備的輸出還有很多的平台還有人才的培育"},{"start":729.148,"end":730.771,"text":"其實這個在在都已經開始在生根在茁壯所以這個部分我們看應該要做怎麼樣的平衡有一個具體的做法 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"166749","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166749","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb1e1097dc0bde0233fb1ecef7239bdfb16c47a344ae2d12b24455f0fb71571eecb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:28:49 - 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王副組長"},{"start":136.793,"end":143.36,"text":"剛才本席已經把背景大概交代了一下 所以重點就在於事件發生的這個同時 那可能"},{"start":143.9,"end":171.514,"text":"在這個多元事件裡面整個比較多元的社會裡面現在我們會面對很多沒有辦法預期的狀態所以警政署在這個部分在事情發生以後網路上大量流傳的也沒有經過查證嫌犯背景陰謀論跟仇恨性的一些言論那警察局是不是已經有刑事警察局是不是有系統性的收集掌握跟分析了呢"},{"start":172.014,"end":198.278,"text":"那第二個部分是假設訊息明顯的涉及許多不實的資訊然後惡意煽動相關的對立那警政機關目前的因應作為是什麼是只能在事後澄清呢還是及時可以通報跨部會的聯防與追查那是不是可以請警政署這邊做一個回應謝謝委員那因為這個部分是我們巡視局的業務我們請巡視局來幫忙"},{"start":200.192,"end":224.624,"text":"那這邊跟委員做一個報告就是這個專案成立之後那我們警政署有成立一個專案的小組他每天都會回報在當時嗎 就是當時馬上對 馬上就成立了 對那我們現在每天都會統計這個網路上面有一些恐怖攻擊的這些或是不死的這些言論那目前有收集到了118件那已經有查緝了23件還有22個人"},{"start":228.025,"end":254.228,"text":"我們每天都會做一個管制而且會通報各縣市警察局要聯合來做一個查緝好的 這個是針對本席的第一個問題你們針對這個事件大概有一些系統性的整理那第二個部分如果在同時間很快的就有人同時在散佈這些言論的話那你們是不是只能在散播之後然後有一些回報的時候才有一些回應呢還是即時就可以跨部會的處理跟追查"},{"start":255.076,"end":277.72,"text":"這個部分我們會通報各縣市警察局他們有一個科技犯罪偵查像這次的事件就在台北市然後各縣市警察局這個可能又更久了我們本期是在談事件處理的事件發生的當下你們的整個處理有沒有在即時性的部分大概在怎麼樣子的誤差呢對一個比較重大的一些事件我們會立即通報相關的一些部會"},{"start":278.462,"end":293.528,"text":"好啦 這個是你們講的這個通報 你剛才講到各縣市有相關部會 其實本席這邊比較關心的是說那如果面對這些這個可能跟事件相關直接相關或間接相關或者是沒有相關的這些資訊那其實他有的時候會"},{"start":294.948,"end":308.884,"text":"變成另外誤導成另外一個事件的發生那這個部分你們如何因應跟處理好那你剛才其實也沒有直接回應到這些問題是不是可以把你們在這件事情的一個作為上給本席送一個報告好不好"},{"start":309.565,"end":336.588,"text":"好所以剛才本席講的這個部分最主要就是說在事件發生的時候很多的謠言陰謀論跟仇恨的敘事都會在社會當中發酵那這會產生國安問題但這個國安問題不是事件的本身而是可能平常就有一些有一些東西在發酵那所以這個其實這次的個案可以讓我們看到整體性的整個社會安全或國安問題該怎麼去處理因為很多"},{"start":337.629,"end":366.518,"text":"在這個事件裡面搞不好跟國安沒關的那他就會導引成一個國安的一個事件跟狀態然後把真正要處理問題的這個焦點導到別的地方所以那新聞又尤其是會這個樣子把一些陰謀論然後推波助瀾又成為另外一種幫兇所以這個部分我覺得你們應該要在這次事件裡面做一個整理然後聚焦在如何不要讓事件擴大成為其他不相干的一些問題"},{"start":367.818,"end":391.917,"text":"好 那第二個部分 這個部分我們要請教法務部跟國土安全辦公室那是不是請這個相關的這個代表所以本席剛才講到這個陰謀論跟仇恨的敘事在社會中會發酵那有的時候不是只有在輿論的層次有的時候就會產生一些集體暴力的模仿跟再現那這一次呢 我們知道這個法務部這邊有相關的一些處理啦"},{"start":392.717,"end":398.419,"text":"但是這次重大的隨機殺人事件有假訊息也有陰謀論的擴散以外還出現了一些恐嚇的言論攻擊的預告跟仿效的訊息這也是一個仿效效應的警訊所以"},{"start":407.702,"end":427.894,"text":"法務部有對外表示你們要全面啟動應變作為目前高等檢察署有成立督導的應變小組也要求各地方的檢察署來成立反放恐怖的攻擊應變小組要強化網路的巡查這個是法務部目前已做的本席這邊要強調幾點剛才部長這邊有提到在這個事件"},{"start":434.398,"end":438.641,"text":"發生之後呢剪刀機關目前辦了14個人然後37個這個案件嗎這個部分是不是可以請您我是剛才聽到委員在質詢的時候那您有這個數據的一個回應那因為是本席的問題"},{"start":450.572,"end":473.374,"text":"所以可不可以請您在這個部分再更深入一點的回應就是說這個案件我們這個是一個多禮拜到10天左右我們到昨天為止那個已經我們辦了已經40個案件了那有被告38名那5個人已經起訴了那另外我們生下18件那有羈押的是3人 拒保9人那暫時安置有1人"},{"start":473.954,"end":503.474,"text":"那這部分這個是這個督導小組的確跟那個應變小組的確是專組才專組專者檢查辦案的不是內勤是專者來辦案的那跟警方做一個聯繫的傳口跟調查局所以我們這只會調查警方跟調查局來學歷來查起這些的模仿的這些效應那因為這個民眾會恐慌所以我們是全力的壓制那所以這部分我們這邊是一個成果就實際上的一個作為"},{"start":504.114,"end":531.023,"text":"那另外那個對那個被害人那部分我們事實上也採取一些的關懷的一個機制在第一時間其實上我們都已經進入到到跟被害人來做一個聯繫那我們啟動一路相伴的好的謝謝部長那所以本席剛才的問題您的這邊的回應那本席可能需要您後續在整個案件已經偵辦完成的這個部分給本席一個簡單的就是內容上的主旨上的一個回應好不好"},{"start":531.743,"end":560.501,"text":"你们目前的作为已经针对恐吓维安的言论已经做了一些处理本席这边也要请教的这应该跟国土安全比较关系在这个部分如果尚未构成一些犯罪而且但是是有一些高度风险的一个象征办公室是不是有确保畅通的跨部会的前端介入机制本席这边谈的是一个模仿效应的前端防治的一个问题比如说风险的通报评估或中央"},{"start":561.641,"end":588.721,"text":"機關地方政府設服校園體系的一個協作來提前降低後續極端行為發生的一個可能法務部國土部署都可以做一個回應國土安全部這邊主席委員好針對這個部分後續我們也會依照院長還有兩位政委的指示督導相關內政部警政署交通部還有法務部衛福部針對相關的部分"},{"start":589.702,"end":610.393,"text":"還有相關的預警的機制做相關的測驚作為以上所以本席這邊要談的是你們一些制度性跟跨體系的一些預防措施如何來真正的遏止這個模仿效應那這是我們從這次事件裡面看到的我們可以透過這一點來守住社會安全跟法治的一個底線但是同樣的也對於這個國安問題和"},{"start":613.014,"end":634.116,"text":"衛福、社政、教育體系的一個聯動我覺得都在這個事件裡面應該再做一個更縝密的處理那後續你們如果有相關的這個結果是不是可以把報告然後回應給本席的辦公室那部長你這邊好像有要補充的就是說我們就遵照委員的一些的指示我們會做一些的書面的一個報告"},{"start":635.377,"end":654.173,"text":"好 謝謝 最主要是我們現在很難去完全杜絕我們沒有辦法預測的一些事件跟行為最重要的就是每一個個案我們如何去做處理跟因應當然有很大的系統性的問題是我們整個社會要去面對的"},{"start":654.881,"end":679.812,"text":"所以像我借用媒體的一句話一個人在社會中徹底斷裂又失去與他人連結的時候他常常會透過毀滅性的暴力來強迫社會看到他的存在所以這次事件發生的時候本席還蠻欣賞蔣萬安市長的一個回應他說他不願意去提這個人的名字因為他"},{"start":680.872,"end":700.731,"text":"這樣子會讓他成為這樣子的悲劇英雄那我想在2019年紐西蘭發生的那個殺人事件也是同樣的道理當時紐西蘭的總理也不願意去提這個犯罪者的名字那但是我們社會呢就很習慣的就把這些名字一直記然後一直講然後一直在散發相關的這個恐懼"},{"start":701.351,"end":728.677,"text":"那我想相關的單位我們都應該透過這幾個事件除了在法律跟犯罪還有刑責上的一個處理以外呢那跨部會我們或許要知道我們到底哪一些東西是在這裡面完全欠缺跟Lost掉的好嗎好謝謝那最後我是不是很短的時間謝謝兩位請教一下司法院那司法院今天是是我們刑事廳廳長嘛"},{"start":732.194,"end":760.953,"text":"還有人是處長我想兩個正好跟這些事情尤其是人事這個部分感謝昭偉在禮拜一排了一個司法院的考察我們辦公室有人代表我們去針對司法院的相關的一些業務做一些了解其中有一項也是本席經常長時期在關注的也就是司法體系是不是有足夠的工具跟量能來因應目前案件量"},{"start":762.054,"end":778.756,"text":"跟降低人力的一個負擔案件量變多但是人力負擔也變大那本席在這個委員會裡面經常在談這個人力的這個問題那我們知道在刑事案件已經用打擊詐欺因為打擊詐欺很多所以暴增那所以"},{"start":780.017,"end":798.608,"text":"本期這邊就針對你們過去曾經對外公布的一個試驗性的政策也就是AI司法裁判草稿的這個系統那你們在民國112年有發布新聞稿來指出為了減輕法官的工作量提升審判的效能"},{"start":799.989,"end":820.225,"text":"不能安全駕駛幫助詐欺等犯罪的量刑智慧分析系統基礎上那裡面發展的深層是AI那用於撰寫裁判草稿來供法官參考但是呢你們也有強調認定事實跟適用法律與量刑的一些核心事項還是可以由法官來完全自行決定"},{"start":820.865,"end":846.161,"text":"那麼新聞稿你們這邊也提到說系統已經開發完成那也規劃了試辦那麼毒品罪裁判草稿系統也在111年發包然後原定113年規劃擴及民事交通事故消債更生清算等事件但是在113年應該是同一年那個的10月你們的報導相關的計劃就暫緩了所以在考察的時候我們其實有"},{"start":846.581,"end":869.009,"text":"也問過這樣一個問題所以我想請教一下你們目前AI導入司法流程並不涉及判決書草稿的這個部分過去也有同樣的模型的開發但是好像也沒有一些著墨所以本席要請教的是在112年新聞稿提及的這幾項不能安全駕駛幫助詐欺的這些生成系統目前的狀態是如何"},{"start":873.251,"end":896.505,"text":"那是已經完成沒有上限還是你們事辦了以後終止還是你們的政策方向有了調整然後毒品罪的一個裁判草稿系統跟後續民事裁定的這個草稿AI的開發案那是不是也還在原先的規劃內那如果是已經暫停或有調整方向是不是有正式的一些政策評估的報告或風險檢討的一個結論"},{"start":898.906,"end":916.483,"text":"那這個部分是不是可以先做一個回應本席再接下去談跟國員報告一下因為這個不是我行事廳的業務不過在112年10月份我們有發一個新聞稿暫停暫緩相關的AI生成的一些裁判書的草稿"},{"start":916.963,"end":943.945,"text":"是因為有碰到什麼困難因為我們當時還沒有所謂的人工智慧相關的指引一直到今年的三月份相關的司法院引用人工智慧的指引才出來那現在整個整個制度還有這個設計的推展那是由我們資訊處還有司法執行廳在負責所以這邊也許是我們會後再跟委員做進一步的報告"},{"start":945.294,"end":966.649,"text":"好的那如果您這邊不是太清楚的話那會後可能相關的你們從一開始然後到底我剛才問的是說是有事辦了還是你們政策調整了或是您這邊說因為有一些指引出來了那是接續在處理呢或是接續還在推呢這個部分是不是可以給我比較清楚的一個回應所以我們不太會後再提供書面給委員好"},{"start":971.212,"end":991.405,"text":"那另外我在本席這邊再了解一下那我不知道你們是認為目前AI不太適用在裁判草稿的一個輔助呢還是說你們對AI有另外一些想法那除了您剛才講的這個指引不曉得您對這個部分的就是院裡面這樣一個看法"},{"start":992.705,"end":1017.884,"text":"基本上我們對裁判書不會是使用生成式的AI來製作這個是一個審判核心的東西必須要由人來決定裁判書這個部分大概我們的AI現在怎樣的是運用上大概比較偏向於資料的整理但是這個都還在研議中而已本席剛才有提到就是你們原先是想要這樣走"},{"start":1018.584,"end":1046.768,"text":"然後現在你說是這個資訊整理談判書的朝你這部分現在是沒有我們所知道的好像新聞稿那時候是想說有朝這樣一個方向去走所以其實第一線的司法人員也會有這些期待那所以你們新聞稿這樣子發布然後他們可能有這些期待但是呢後續也沒有一些結果所以你們是不是更確定的讓大家知道以避免大家對於這個好像你們想要推動數位減輕負擔的方向那目前的做法或"},{"start":1047.188,"end":1062.616,"text":"有可能的一個推動狀況那產生一些期待的落差那是不是可以讓大家更清楚要不然你們112年講的這個方向大家有很多的期待可是現在可能中間有一些困難或過程或者是有沒有一些這個"},{"start":1064.497,"end":1081.538,"text":"方向上的調整那這個部分是不是可以再更清楚讓第一線的司法人員去做了解跟委員報告一下事實上我們的代理院長對新科技的使用在司法上非常有興趣而且非常有大力的在支持"},{"start":1082.199,"end":1085.823,"text":"那市長現在有推有組成一個科技司法的推動小組每兩個禮拜會開一次會那怎樣來就相關的AI的引進引進的程度跟風險的評估哪些是可以用哪些是不可以用這部分有逐步在每個兩週再做一次的討論"},{"start":1100.32,"end":1113.023,"text":"所以本席這邊的重點就是說你們先前有公告那如果就我的了解就有一些可能有一些format你們就會follow這樣子的做法但是或許你們在過程當中覺得還是要以人來做這個處理但是可能很多人在第一次就聽到你們的這個新聞的發布就有一些期待那目前好像有一些落差是不是也可以載明"},{"start":1123.906,"end":1146.312,"text":"那最重要的是本席這長期關心的就是司法人員過勞的這個問題那當然你們有找出很多方式想要來推動但是推動的成效結果或者是方 政策如果有調整那這個可能及時的讓大家知道以免期待落差太大 好不好好 那相關的報告也就麻煩你們送到本席的辦公室好嗎 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166751","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166751","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb1bf6500e4c8218fd5b1ecef7239bdfb16c0748ef97bdf76601257d1c12132fb9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:48:09 - 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下一頁"},{"start":136.98,"end":151.368,"text":"那張文的捷運北捷攻擊案北投屈我的選區倒是真的成為一個被指名要在12月31號也就是今天要北投砍死100人你們查出IP在越南嗎"},{"start":152.609,"end":171.364,"text":"這段時間冒名的這種重大網路風險訊息應該是22件立案偵辦的應當是4件這是我上週一質詢張署長的時候獲得的資訊請問北投這個案子有沒有進一步的查到什麼因為我們北投都在部署都在戒備有沒有進一步的消息"},{"start":174.985,"end":194.842,"text":"所以你們今天來的代表好像就是不是很清楚這個辦案我要說就是無論如何這種網路的仿效的效應就是造成社會的恐慌甚至造成我被盜用帳號冒名的當事人的不堪其擾"},{"start":197.896,"end":215.351,"text":"這種網路的查查偵辦無論如何我請警政署要能夠有所作為我不曉得我今天質詢完又要是不是又被冒名了我又要再跑分局報警一次真的不要再亂了啦"},{"start":216.725,"end":233.684,"text":"這些滋事分子滋事擾事的分子不要再亂了下一頁那我很感謝警政署我週一去內政委員會針對這個張文的模仿犯要在北投砍100人的事件我向張署長提出質詢之後"},{"start":234.665,"end":259.3,"text":"我提出幾個要求就是應當在北投市林我服務的選區召開地方的緊急治安會議要落實官民協防我們的民防疫警社區巡守隊動起來然後加強巡邏提高見景率我那天江處長告訴我好像第一步是支援台北市警力中央支援好像八十多人現在是不是又增加了應當是人力物力都來"},{"start":261.194,"end":266.007,"text":"目前還是維持在這個人數但是今天那個跨年活動會"},{"start":267.607,"end":293.964,"text":"對 跨年活動絕對要滴水不漏那當然增進公民的宣導對人民的危機意識要深化這就是我上週一質詢我謝謝署長我質詢完兩個小時內我就接到北投分局長的電話他跟我說 司要委員謝謝你的關心我們週三就召開緊急治安會議我也親自去出席這就是讓大家都能夠守望相助 人人有責下一頁"},{"start":294.952,"end":306.355,"text":"那我要肯定一下北投分局喔 就是他們自己做的一個文宣啊您知道捷運站碰到恐怖攻擊要如何自保嗎有四字訣 您知道嗎"},{"start":308.564,"end":330.732,"text":"警政署代表不知道 這應該是我們北投分局自己的同仁很用心的製作跑 躲 擋 報第一個 能跑就跑第二個 不能跑就躲第三個 躲不了就擋 要找掩護最後呢 如果你安全了就報警跑 躲 擋 報"},{"start":332.193,"end":348.443,"text":"我真的很謝謝北投分局這一次全面的總動員這樣子的資訊我覺得非常有利於你們在各地分享給更多的民防社區的系統好嗎那另外你們知道這本小局書全台灣發放的狀況如何這國安國安在發的你們你們有收集嗎跟各地的縣市政府鄰里系統在合作的"},{"start":358.873,"end":369.472,"text":"包委員因為這一個部分是內政部在主導就好你們今天找警政署好像都一萬三不知可能代表不一樣了OK"},{"start":370.819,"end":392.701,"text":"我自己的轄區我服務的是林北投幾乎都收到了但是可能最後九成多還有一些last mile最後一些社區你們絕對要全力趕快把這個重要的人民強化民防的資訊全百分之百都要下放好嗎好謝謝辛苦你們好下一個"},{"start":393.682,"end":404.453,"text":"進入今天的另一個主題就政務人員的專訪那個部長當時我就提出了這是要誰啊你們行政院跟考試院好考試院好"},{"start":407.143,"end":428.25,"text":"我就提出專法的必要性因為如同美國、加拿大、英國、德國、日本等等民主國家都沒有立這種政務人員專法也沒有禁止政務人員參與政治活動因為政治活動是憲法賦予人民的權利嘛而主管機關到底是行政院還考試院現在還莫衷一試"},{"start":429.963,"end":454.213,"text":"那適用對象我看到三個版本羅志強委員翁小林委員吳宗憲委員適用對象不一翁委員的版本好像是適用比較大的把大法官法官都含納進去了那當然規範的行為包山包海也莫衷一事這些爭點你們認為現在有正向的結論可以進行立法了嗎你們誰要回答連主管機關考試院認了嗎"},{"start":462.144,"end":486.305,"text":"主管監察部分我剛剛有說明就是說這個法律裡面規範的有些部分行政院要處理那有些部分該是監察院的工作好像有一部分跟考試院有關那牽涉到相關法律跟既有法律重疊的部分有考試院的法律沒有錯但也有行政院很多行政院相關法律所以也站在這個規範的對象因為高度政治性來講所以不太適合由主管管法制的考試院來處理"},{"start":486.926,"end":505.485,"text":"您的回答其實跟我們上一次就這個主題也是一致你們倒是蠻一致的好下頁所以有這些爭點這是我8月28號召委排案的時候我就提出來的建議如果有院版不管是考試院版或行政院版政府的版本有會比較好"},{"start":506.466,"end":530.473,"text":"當然要不要立這個專法是值得商榷第二個我也提出建議呼籲主席這個課題要邀請學者專家中央地方政府因為很多是規範地方政府應當有公聽會再來處理這也是我今天的建議當然相關的法規配套不管是公務人員行政中立法公務員服務法公務員懲戒法或是刑法121條都要一併的檢視我依舊8月28對於委員會提出來的呼籲"},{"start":536.235,"end":564.511,"text":"跟今天12月31號我依舊建議不要為快而快不要倉促立法這依舊是我今天的一些主張好 下一頁我倒是覺得非常的遺憾這也不是要問考試院那就鄭部長您上來代表一下好了立法委員自己不守法反定專法要去管別人"},{"start":565.936,"end":594.199,"text":"只准立委放火不准政務人員點燈喔譬如說今天要立政務人員行為基準法這一屆的立法院的立法委員們自己都不遵守立法委員行為法了左邊是我們宣誓的時候的誓詞啊於是以至存於是以至成客尊憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使權利"},{"start":596.008,"end":616.241,"text":"這是我們每一個人就任的時候對著國旗對著國父遺像所宣示的最重要的就是克尊憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使權利但是我們這一屆的立法委員自己都不克尊憲法自己都不效忠國家自己都不依法"},{"start":618.198,"end":630.092,"text":"來行使代表人民行使職權我看到汪小林委員的版本第18條第二項建屋人員如果有違法廢除職務之事就要予以免職"},{"start":631.84,"end":652.856,"text":"那就怪啦立法委員自己違法立法委員自己廢除職務到今天12月31號了中央政府總預算第一頁第一筆預算都還沒開始審查這不就達到了自己廢除職務違法的就是立法委員啊立法委員要不要自己免職啊"},{"start":654.588,"end":669.845,"text":"翁曉林委員的提案第14條他說如果政務人員利用職務之便然後去收受賄賂等等收受金錢契約或其他利益之捐助就要有罰則那怪啦"},{"start":670.766,"end":697.395,"text":"國民黨的委員提出立法院組織法要把助理費納為立法委員的合法的補助費立委可以自肥立法委員自己貪獨自己把要給助理的錢變成自己的錢那自己立法委員憑什麼去管政務人員行為基準啊自己真的我委員自己的提案去想想發生在立法院的情景吧"},{"start":698.567,"end":710.795,"text":"不要立委自己不守法反定專法去管別人還包山包海管到海邊去連大法官法官都要管很奇怪下一頁"},{"start":712.577,"end":734.706,"text":"立委提案推翻憲判這是我們上週五立法院院會晉覆二讀譴責大法官而且立院用決議來宣判憲判無效而且不是只有這個憲法訴訟法的憲判無效喔我看國民黨團的這個提案甚至耳後啊耳後啊"},{"start":735.346,"end":752.194,"text":"大法官援引此判決以人數未達憲法訴訟法所定的這個門檻的話一切的憲法宣判均屬無效不生效力應該是司法院的代表應該上來這樣一個憲判無效案用立法院的決議可以推翻憲判"},{"start":754.481,"end":782.547,"text":"這就違反憲法78條違反憲法訴訟法38條違反釋字185號的解釋嘛立法院自己廢除職務違法還違憲要不要自己免職自己啊還敢訂政務人員專法下一個翁委員呢昨天提出一個要修公投法可以用公民投票來覆決包括憲法法庭的判決"},{"start":784.742,"end":810.442,"text":"憲法增修條文第12條如果你要公投你就去修憲公投吧公投法第二條也規範了所謂的全國性公投依憲法規定依憲法規定要依憲法規定你現在要用公投法又去推翻大法官的憲法判決自己又推違憲法案不只沒有客尊憲法不只違法還違憲還廢除職務不審預算"},{"start":813.624,"end":834.706,"text":"那這個標準立法委員自己要不要免職啊來 廳長您最棒您那天的很多答覆我覺得非常的公允立法委員可以用立法院的決議推翻憲判嗎立法委員可以修公投法啟用公投來推翻憲判嗎 您簡要回答"},{"start":836.603,"end":862.427,"text":"委員針對這個事項分兩個部分一個部分就是有關於立法院決議譴責那個大法官的憲判這個部分那這個部分就是之前有說明就是按照憲法訴訟法規定憲法法庭的判決本來就是有拘束全國機關跟人民的效力這是第一點我就是要再度澄清的然後再來有關於這是最新的昨天要修公投法"},{"start":864.088,"end":882.618,"text":"這個部分公投法將憲判納為公投的標的因為公投法其實是透過直接民權去補充代議民主的制度的不足在性質上面將一個司法的決定納為公投的標的會有意義"},{"start":884.699,"end":900.246,"text":"那就這個部分我先做一個簡短的補充是 謝謝廷長我幫您翻譯為白話文如果任何一個司法的判決有委員不服以後就用立法院的院會決議來推翻司法的判決本來有罪的便無罪可以這樣嗎"},{"start":902.25,"end":914.755,"text":"或者是在野黨的委員不滿某一個司法的判決然後呢 就發動勞民傷財 全國性公投 用全民公投來推翻司法的宣判 會這樣嗎 鄭部長 會這樣嗎不會吧"},{"start":919.341,"end":940.057,"text":"翻譯白話文就是這樣嘛如果這樣依剛剛窩小林委員提的政務人員專法違法廢除職務的就要免職政務人員這些違法又違憲又廢除職務不成預算的立委不是自我免職自我了斷嗎最後來下一頁過去到現在阿扁執政時期135個釋憲案"},{"start":942.877,"end":947.2,"text":"馬英九總統執政時期95個釋憲案蔡英文總統時期120個釋憲案賴清德總統上任到現在8個釋憲案我要再次強調釋憲案98%都是人民權利不是"},{"start":957.788,"end":979.453,"text":"府院憲政機關的爭議98%都是人民權利如果國民黨所提的這一個推翻而後所有的憲判天啊天下大亂立法院最大又來了立法院最大又來了自己要不要先廢除職務先自我了斷自我免職啊下一頁"},{"start":980.333,"end":1002.538,"text":"所以過去幾個經驗585號釋字在2004年的時候當時是陳水扁任命的大法官但是國會多數是國民黨因為大法官的宣判國民黨國會多數依舊通過了徵調會的條例的三讀修正依據大法官的視線去立法院作出回應"},{"start":1003.898,"end":1030.706,"text":"來做出一個合憲的修法這是針調會條例下一頁釋字613號是在2006年7月宣判的當時一樣是陳水扁總統執政沒有錯他任命的大法官但是國會多數是國民黨當時的國民黨還不敢這樣違憲國民黨也很快的在五個月後來完成NCC組織法被宣判違憲的組織法的修法他們改回來了"},{"start":1031.966,"end":1053.073,"text":"讓違憲成為合憲再看大家印象最深的是字748號下一頁就是同婚法案同婚法案大法官宣判之後2017年國會非常的慎重國會的各黨派在2019年花了兩年的時間我們通過了亞洲第一個同婚條例合憲一憲行憲"},{"start":1055.114,"end":1067.164,"text":"就是國會不分黨派憲法沒有顏色大法官沒有顏色為什麼這一屆的立法委員要一再的挑戰憲法要不要依你們所提的政務人員"},{"start":1069.123,"end":1087.853,"text":"專法自我了斷自我免職呢所以刮刮別人的鬍子之前先刮刮自己政務人員專法我再次回到我的要求要有公聽會因為他適用的範圍很廣他規範的內容很廣然後他主管機關不明"},{"start":1089.014,"end":1111.147,"text":"然後他所有法律的競合要一併思考我再一次提醒招委我們要做合法合憲的立法委員因為我宣誓的時候吳思瑤對著憲法說我事已制成 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我們僑委會在報告中有提到這幾年通過海外僑團 商會 青商培育以及就是產業交流邀訪的活動來連結海外僑台商與台灣的產業發展這些努力本身給予很高也高度的肯定 因為我們有一起過"},{"start":42.164,"end":55.902,"text":"所以呢但是我想要請教一下除了辦活動後續的制度有沒有真正的鏈接起來橋委會邀請海外的橋台商來台參訪AI"},{"start":58.567,"end":82.12,"text":"智慧科技製造還有就是醫療等產業這些安排和國內各單位交流也媒合很棒也很有意義但是活動結束後呢有沒有後續的追蹤是否真正的促成合作注意台灣產業走向"},{"start":83.4,"end":99.969,"text":"國際的市場或有哪一些具體可就是持續的效果 另外報告裡面也要說配合產業發展與供應鏈調整來推動橋台商的連結 請教一下"},{"start":101.25,"end":119.194,"text":"我們是否有和經濟部 國發會等的部會固定合作把橋台商的力量納入整體發展 產業的發展還是各做各的 橋委會有沒有把我們的橋台商的產業供應鏈平台"},{"start":124.375,"end":128.197,"text":"建立起來在哪裡因為我們裡面沒看到委員我們在世界台商總會的系統裡面有六大州那六大州下面都有各國那事實上我們就是跟這些各國各州的總會長定期都會有群組在討論那我們組成這些不論是參訪團或者是這個"},{"start":147.626,"end":155.612,"text":"理監事大會開會我們一定也都讓邀請國發會經濟部外交部等相關單位都會來參與同時我們也會安排他們去拜會經濟部國發會外交部教育部等相關單位這個是一個整體的配套所以政府並不是只有一個僑委會作為窗口事實上僑委會只是在這個當中作為一個平台來連結"},{"start":174.184,"end":189.233,"text":"各實際的部會那實際上的部會才是真的在執行這些業務的單位所以我們的橋台商都很清楚就是說他們回來的話我們都會依著他們發展的需求來幫他們介紹比方說有"},{"start":191.514,"end":194.255,"text":"不少的這個泰國台商他們就認為說我們的這個研究能量很強的公研院他們覺得公研院值得去拜會那我們就幫泰國的台商總會組一個團然後介紹他們認識以後他們自己去簽MOU簽完MOU以後他這個泰國總會下面他還有十幾個分會跟會員他就可以憑著這個MOU"},{"start":216.68,"end":220.143,"text":"他有個案要去委託的時候他可以去簽約委託基本上我們的MOU都是先提供初步的諮詢諮詢的話不用費用但是如果你要個案的委託的時候我舉一個例子來講我們過去幾年有好多個橋台商他們在不同的國家比方說他們在工研院他們需要某些技術上的協助"},{"start":239.841,"end":247.448,"text":"是因為我們知道說辦很多活動你我也參加很多所以活動之外我們也有在追蹤這個說明的是說是否長期有效的一個平台的一個制度因為我們希望說僑商資源就不停留在就是活動交流"},{"start":262.142,"end":267.447,"text":"我們希望就是說台灣的產業國際化還有永續發展的重要的平台我們要的是這樣子的一個可追蹤就是大家可以不要說每次辦活動我會經營就是說我促進多少多少我們不是要這樣子的數據我們要真正的實際的平台"},{"start":283.401,"end":288.704,"text":"對 而且我們也會就是在這個MOU簽完後我們會去詢問說有沒有多少個案例我們反過來 比方說我們就去問公園院說那這一年簽完MOU以後有沒有哪幾個國家的人來跟他們簽我希望的是有可追蹤的一個真正的平衡有書記追蹤不是只是說我這個活動辦完了"},{"start":307.052,"end":326.262,"text":"不過委員其實是這樣子因為像工研院他是屬於經濟部的這個管轄權所以我才說有沒有跟其他的部隊爭爭的是一個供應鏈的平台不只是各做各的啦好接下來呢我想要再請教一下說我們我上次有質詢勞動部長他就說僑委會僑生歸僑委會"},{"start":337.344,"end":360.771,"text":"實習歸教育部 這責任不是這樣子就切開了但學生的生活與權益不能這樣子切我們今天關心的不是誰管因為僑生也好 外籍生也好來台灣都是大家互相分工 不是誰管而制度有沒有真正的保護這些孩子"},{"start":361.491,"end":385.396,"text":"因為這些孩子都是媽媽的心目中的寶貝因為依據報導在2024年10月長期調查的僑委會志2014年推動就是三家市的產學攜手合作僑生專班10年已經超過2萬人來台名義上是學習"},{"start":386.576,"end":395.933,"text":"但是實際上是實習並行所以當這個食物現場很多僑生就是逐漸當成就是"},{"start":397.728,"end":406.811,"text":"人力的充分所以呢沒有好好的培育人才所以我想請教三個關鍵問題第一 僑委會在核准高中職實習型的那個專班時有沒有定有明確的原則確保實習內容還有時數與教育的目的不會偏離就是以學習為本 第二"},{"start":427.056,"end":449.468,"text":"對承辦專班的學校 僑委會是否持續掌握實習的實際狀況而且不是招生名額多少有沒有就是檢核這些學校有沒有符合原本的核准的培育的目標 第三當僑生在學習"},{"start":453.689,"end":473.275,"text":"與實習的之間出現明顯的落差的時候他們還沒有18歲就來台灣當同工的樣子甚至影響適應的保障草委會是否已經及時列入還是呢等發生的時候再來解決問題"},{"start":474.465,"end":502.016,"text":"好謝謝委員的三個問題那個內容很多我後隨後也會提供書面資料給你參考我先簡單講一下我們的喬生之所以叫喬生他就是來學習的所以我們不是把他當作移工我們也不是把他當作勞動力來思考我們是來培養這些人才將來希望他有機會成為台灣的一部分這個是我們的前提那我們按照教育部的規範就是"},{"start":503.957,"end":514.482,"text":"這些產學合作專班就是建校合作是有他的法定依據的條例這個都是我們立法院通過的那在這個條例的標準之下呢我們現在的高職專班就是他的學習時數不得低於全部的50%這是基本原則所以他就算是要去實習 實習的時數也不可以超過他在學校的時數"},{"start":528.228,"end":536.733,"text":"這是基本原則然後我們當然也會看各個學校的這個師生比例他的師資夠不夠他的校舍設備夠不夠他的住宿環境好不好這幾年我們把標準定的越來越嚴格是希望說台灣過去作為技職教育非常評價高的學校在現在我們培養其他海外學生的時候也能夠繼續保有以前的這個"},{"start":556.403,"end":570.109,"text":"助紙那這些孩子們來到台灣我們當然有責任要保護他所以每一個跟我們先約承辦的學校我們都有定期以及不定期的檢查包括去實習企業也會檢查因為時間有限我知道你們是剛才你說後續要給我"},{"start":576.192,"end":590.597,"text":"一份書面資料因為我本身我家的小孩來台灣所以我才會提出這個問題很多我們台灣的小孩來台灣越南小孩來台灣應該是超過其他國家的人"},{"start":596.679,"end":610.314,"text":"目前是最多但是近年來可能已經在高峰點要下來了沒錯為什麼要下來呢因為僑生不是外來的勞動力是國家用制度邀請的人才但是制度如果只顧"},{"start":612.728,"end":622.831,"text":"有來的人就好沒有照顧到是被照顧後續的所以就會是我們政府的責任我們為什麼要提出因為希望我們草委會要跨部會整合"},{"start":630.653,"end":636.439,"text":"主責制度讓這個制度上是否建立委員喬森確實還是我們負責的還有調整制度還有監督學校有沒有按照這樣子我們也都提供24小時多語系的電話給喬森會申訴很多的家長跟我們反映"},{"start":650.712,"end":655.395,"text":"是委員可不可以直接給我們資訊變成童工所以他們覺得說孩子來台灣高中生來台灣你的孩子如果高中生就是實習變成打工的樣子不會我們現在不會允許這個狀態除非學生自己一直說他要打工我們了解的狀況是這樣這個報導有很多是過去很久以前的錯誤訊息"},{"start":676.63,"end":694.799,"text":"不是現在的狀態了我最後的要求就是希望今天我們執行的重點只有一個就是把制度補齊不論是海外的橋台商的鏈結還是僑生的實習的制度不只能"},{"start":696.161,"end":710.852,"text":"停留在辦活動給名額也必須走向可追蹤可評估可調整有人負責的機制平台我們要求就是建立制度要留得住"},{"start":711.412,"end":726.237,"text":"還有用得上讓台商 僑委會讓我們的台商們還有僑委會的僑商他們來台灣真正的被照顧及安心還有讓我們的僑生的父母"},{"start":726.917,"end":751.862,"text":"在海外安心放心把孩子交給台灣也讓我們的僑生在發展求職的路徑讓海外的人才留下來也促進我們的台商的產業連接國際的接軌有制度永續發展實質的平台不要浪費我們的人民的納稅錢讓真正的制度發"},{"start":756.124,"end":758.107,"text":"這個就是我今天來要求的謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166747","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166747","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb133c069c23ab22af229097fae15897403c47a344ae2d12b244cf22a73b69dd6195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:27:58 - 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委員長你好今天最主要是有三個問題要問你那我剛剛看了這個專案報告書裡面我們說特別在台灣在高科技半導體資訊跟醫療生技方面沒有提到的是我們的農業那我想說最近我們跟工研院跟技術師在我們雲鄉地區有做一些智慧農業的部分比如說導入了一些智慧的灌溉系統比如說我們的段木香菇用機械化"},{"start":37.726,"end":47.416,"text":"類似半自動這樣的一個科技在裡面我想說我們跟台紐、台澳比較重視農業的國家還有加拿大是不是有可能把我們的智慧農業傳遞到那邊去"},{"start":50.186,"end":54.49,"text":"謝謝盧委員的關心確實我們在2021年2022年的時候我們確實有把台灣的智慧農業介紹給我們海外的橋台商因此就有我們成立了兩個觀摩團跟研習班其中一個比方說在剛剛你提到的加拿大我們有一位在加拿大做農業非常成功的一個案例他因為回來台灣"},{"start":80.03,"end":104.642,"text":"參加了我們這個農業觀摩團以後因此他就積極的把台灣的這個系統就引去引到加拿大去發展那使得他的這個事業規模也越做越好那所以我們確實這幾年在對加拿大或者是紐西蘭澳洲這幾個特別重視原住民的政策的國家呢我們也都有配套的在"},{"start":105.222,"end":126.875,"text":"鼓勵大家說有沒有可能繼續往這個方向 提到這個部分是希望能夠藉由我們僑委會這邊能夠媒合我們比較優秀的我們的原住民的農業青年 是 能夠去那邊比如說就業啦或者是一些技術的一個轉移或者是指導 是 參與那方面那邊的一個產業的活動 是 第二個就是我們的智慧醫療的部分"},{"start":128.015,"end":137.957,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們明年2026年的9月份我們會再辦理一班叫做智慧農業研習班那屆時如果說我們有原住民的一些青農他們有一些好的這個發展的我們也會去跟他們做交流或者邀請他們來參加這個研習班來做分享這個是我們可以安排的麻煩委員到時候再推薦給我"},{"start":154.16,"end":178.618,"text":"原民會來一起討論好的那2024年我有參加在澳洲舉行的一個所謂的Pride 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鄭部長兩位早安我想今天還是依據我們的今天的主題來去討論我想"},{"start":37.964,"end":55.005,"text":"今天到底社會安全網是哪裡破了一個洞讓風險一直流到高人流群的這個地方我先引用一個警察他有一個在網路上面一個貼文他說每次出事高層震怒媒體追打基層背鍋"},{"start":57.085,"end":82.221,"text":"那警察變成是這個每次行政漏洞或政治公關的止痛藥每次警察都是這樣這我很能夠理解啦因為以前我也看過都是這樣出事就推給警察但是呢我還是蠻希望說法務部在治安上面你們還是要做一個整合跨部會的整合從制度面著手因為我國目前不是雙偵查主體我國目前是單一偵查主體所以檢察官"},{"start":83.061,"end":83.161,"text":"這部分"},{"start":109.918,"end":132.921,"text":"這部分我們有責請那個因為這個獄警的話我想我們自司法警察最後調查局我們跟那個警政署做一個聯訪做一個聯訪的一個機制來加強一個刑事的一個說法跟分析當然這些我們會做一個網路的一個一個巡查的一個機制如果說有網路或社群媒體有發現有這種此類的當然我們要趕緊去好 謝謝部長"},{"start":134.682,"end":161.471,"text":"這個我在你們報告報告裡面是這樣講但是現在還有一個問題就是說北車這次的張文或是之前的鄭捷其實他們都是社交孤立的人他們的個性他不會在Thread或是Facebook上面去寫說我要殺人讓你抓所以我們今天花了大筆人力譬如說吊牙站的人力傻去網路上面抓人但是會不會反而放任的炸彈客在社區遊蕩"},{"start":163.031,"end":183.839,"text":"這個其實有一點是像在路燈底下找鑰匙就是哪邊比較亮就比較好交差但是真正的核心問題並沒有處理到所以這是我第一個我要跟部長說明的你們的報告裡面提到說這個網路預警系統這個要做沒錯但是這個不會是很主軸因為你看張文你看鄭捷這兩個轟動社會的這兩個人"},{"start":186.92,"end":211.456,"text":"其實他們的社交他不會去做這些事所以你只著重在網路這是一個很大的問題所以我今天的訴求很簡單就是我希望說怎麼樣整合警政跟衛福部的資訊來把這個社會安全網盤建立起來你們的報告午夜我看了半天其實我還是沒有看到怎麼去接住社會的這些被漏接的這群人所以防務部你想嘛如果今天我們的家人"},{"start":212.576,"end":235.972,"text":"每天要搭捷運去通勤那你會不會很害怕會不會又有這種事情發生會不會又有模仿犯發生還有提高見景率我覺得這個東西這個是行政院這句話其實是沒有任何意義的話這只是短時間讓人民安心事實上它對於預防犯罪的用處其實沒有那麼大更何況你社區或是定點的巡邏"},{"start":236.852,"end":254.638,"text":"那這個要做壞事的人就避開你就好你走過去之後我再幹就好啦而且增加見警率他會排擠掉其他辦案的人力一樣你會導致其他的問題發生會不會因此而導致一個家暴案件的法案就這樣漏失掉這也是我們擔心所以我要跟部長說明一個"},{"start":255.718,"end":273.68,"text":"我這邊有一份106年法務部司法官學院花了109萬的納稅錢9年前他有做了一份報告陌生者兼隨機殺人犯罪特性防治對策他有說明到一個點而且引用非常多國外的案例他說得很清楚"},{"start":274.641,"end":290.45,"text":"兇手大多不是精神病患而且前科紀錄表命中率高達73%這是法務部的報告我想部長您很忙應該沒有時間但是我這邊跟你直接把一些重點講出來他們是針對221名在監殺人犯去做研究在針對其中15名屬於隨機殺人犯"},{"start":293.703,"end":312.415,"text":"的資料跟政府的四大資料庫比對包括第一個有沒有讀書這跟教育系統有關第二個有沒有看精神科這跟衛政系統有關第三個是不是高風險家庭這跟社政系統有關第四個有沒有錢哥這跟司法系統有關所以哪一個最能夠提前抓到這些人我們看到你們的報告裡面寫"},{"start":314.079,"end":343.188,"text":"最高的是刑事前科命中率高達73%連那個精神科就醫記錄只有60%的兇手有記錄但是刑事前科有73%的人在裡面都查得到也就是說四個隨機殺人犯裡面有三個在殺人之前其實早就有前科記錄了也就是躺在櫃部的資料庫裡面前科表就有部長您對這部分有什麼想法這邊我們再來瞭解"},{"start":344.068,"end":369.131,"text":"好吧 那副部長之前不知道這個是你們九年前就已經做出來的報告所以我要跟你們說明一下 刑事政策是法務部在管我們是單一偵查主體那民國94年法務部自己就已經說完成刑事資料智慧查詢系統提升檢察官辦案效能嘛所以這個東西你們不能再推責任那這次我還看了一下那個國土安全部的那個報告也很不及格"},{"start":369.471,"end":389.745,"text":"他說要加強國人的防衛意識我覺得這句話等於把問題丟給國人還是說我要加強國人的防衛意識所以我要再印小局書2.0版去要預算是不是這樣所以國土安全部的國土安全辦公室的這份報告等於是沒有報告"},{"start":391.846,"end":417.865,"text":"我還是跟部長說明一下就像我剛說的你們的報告已經說明了73%的隨機殺人的人犯裡面他已經有刑事前科的紀錄也就是說這些資料是躺在你們那裡的那你們是不是可以用這份資料去勾結其他譬如說衛福部譬如說教育部等等的資料去弄清楚誰是高風險的犯者不然你不能說"},{"start":419.146,"end":437.465,"text":"這個刑事資料庫你在掌握你有GPS結果你還在路邊瞎子摸象搞不清楚狀況是怎麼樣部長能夠從前科表就能夠去預防很多事情包括像其他那些隨機殺人犯部長對這部分你有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":438.145,"end":466.677,"text":"我想這個是前科範一定是現在進入到更生的階段或保護管束的一個階段甚至是已經都結束了那這邊我們會請檢察機關在執行反起訴啦或者是保護管束的階段顯化關乎人跟司法保護職工對高風險個案的一個認識跟輔導做心理一個輔導我們希望在輔導這些的更生朋友或者這些的反起訴的這些的一個一個被告或者這些保護管束這些的這些的"},{"start":467.178,"end":472.93,"text":"更生人這部分能夠跟社會的安全環境做一個銜接然後就輔導他們做一個更生這樣啦 我跟你講"},{"start":478.582,"end":505.421,"text":"雖然張文他不是那種重大前科的前科犯但是他是通緝犯對不對他是通緝犯嘛他是馬來兵役通緝犯對 他是通緝犯那我們看刑事訴訟法87條甚至通緝犯檢押官是可以抓的欸對不對 刑事訴訟法87條嘛這個訴訟法有規定是司法警察當然檢察如果說甚至有利害官信也可以逮捕"},{"start":507.625,"end":533.739,"text":"好啦 那個 反正部長你去看一下新宿送87條其實通緝犯是檢察官以及司法警察都可以去逮捕的人所以你不能說跟檢方沒有關 跟法務部沒有關我在跟你講 張文雖然他是那個防衛兵役的前科不是那種什麼暴力犯罪等等的那種但是他至少他是個通緝犯他並不是說你沒有辦法去勾結出來他可能是有高危險犯罪的這個問題"},{"start":535.06,"end":560.441,"text":"更何況我也覺得很奇怪他還可以在外面租房子他還可以去住旅館這個都需要登記的結果後來都沒有人發現他這其實讓我滿匪夷所思的一個問題而且其實我國通緝犯滿街爬爬照但我也不知道為什麼就是抓不到當然啦 什麼時候最會抓就村安的時候啦因為積分高嘛 警察都在那個時候抓村安以外不是特別的時候根本都沒有人在抓"},{"start":561.601,"end":585.246,"text":"這也是很多檢察官都反映過我想部長一定很清楚這個那我再說張文雖然他的前科看起來算乾淨可是過往我們有非常多的案子他們是有很多奇怪的前科在譬如說今年10月在苗栗有一個當街吵小朋友去砍人的那個案子他就有很多次吸毒傷害人的前科"},{"start":585.706,"end":604.108,"text":"像這個的話它就符合106年你們的報告裡面說73%的前科族群裡面所以去從前科表去勾基然後再配合一些社會安全網等等這個確實是有機會預警到這個就是你們的報告內容部長 這個報告你們要不要去把它拿出來"},{"start":605.189,"end":626.263,"text":"重新再審視一下你們花了一百多萬去做了這份報告結果你不能沒有做啊但是這九年下來你們就是沒有做啊部長這我們來努力好那這部分你自己承諾你要努力因為我們那個我們來努力雖然我們知道食物上面殺人大部分都是有恩怨"},{"start":627.817,"end":650.42,"text":"隨機殺人其實大概是5%但是每一次發生它都是讓社會重大的震驚所以我還是拜託部長你能夠把這個高風險的這個前科名單跟社安網警政署的一些資料去做一些勾擊至少可以攔截掉七成以上的悲劇還有一個就是因為廳長也在我就要跟廳長報告"},{"start":651.946,"end":674.985,"text":"部長你們這些資料配合衛福部的資料警政署的資料如果能夠再搭配過往的刑事判決其實你們是可以做出分析的哪些人他將來是屬於高風險的那這個時候是不是我們公權力就要稍微介入去關懷持續的關心去降低他這種恐怖攻擊隨機殺人這個狀況發生部長我不知道你認不認同這個建議"},{"start":679.709,"end":701.226,"text":"這部分我們來努力 我想這部分防治這種全民有責那我們法務部會關注這個問題部長那個不能說只有努力兩個字啦好不好因為解套的方式就在那裡那我剛講的也不是我個人幻想出來的而是貴部在106年的報告自己做出這樣的建議好不好我們當作一個重要的參考"},{"start":701.966,"end":726.804,"text":"那還有高檢署這次有搞了一個督導小組那這個是完整的嗎他能夠指揮衛福部教育部然後調動警政署的資料嗎他能這樣做嗎這個督導小組本來就是一個辦案的任務的編組那這部分是直接是在一個追究就是有一些的模仿效應的部長但是我很怕你所謂的任務編組搞到最後都是應付立法院沒有沒有這個我們有"},{"start":727.785,"end":755.139,"text":"我再跟你說那個106年報告第32也有提到設置社會安全團隊執行長那個人來跨部會去統合拜託你們是不是可以思考像行政院做出這樣的建議依據你們106年報告第32也要設一個這種跨部會的執行長否則到之後法務部沒辦法指揮衛福部啊然後大家又開始到最後橫向聯繫又出問題了各部會這邊要有行政院的一個高度但是你要去建議啊我們法務部是屬於"},{"start":756.199,"end":775.365,"text":"屬於那個一個辦案的一個我知道啦 部長你不用跟我講這個不是 部長那你可以跟行政院講你是行政院裡面最高 最懂法律的人所以也最懂治安的人那你是不是要跟行政院做這樣的這是你們的刑事政策吧"},{"start":775.945,"end":798.295,"text":"當然這個是我們會做一個跨部會的原來我們社會治安就是卡在這個是行政院的事不是法務部的事是這樣嗎不是 這個是你說是行政院決定的或法務部沒辦法我只是拜託你法務部是不是可以跟行政院建議去做一個跨部會的這個指揮而且這也是你們106年的那份報告裡面做出來的決定"},{"start":799.395,"end":824.254,"text":"當然我們可以提供一些的意見來過跨部會那你至少是不是可以跟行政院做出這樣的要求這樣的建議嘛或是把你那份研究報告給行政院看不然你那花了一百多萬去做的那份報告不就沒有任何意義了嗎好不好你很多時候去勾結他的就醫紀錄行蹤紀錄等等的不會發現不了就像張文他被通緝了那難道他這半年沒有看醫生沒有用健保沒有經過入口監視器嗎"},{"start":825.675,"end":845.294,"text":"其實這都是我們懷疑新聞報他還去住旅館耶住旅館你是要登記身份的就完全都沒有勾結到就讓這個人在外面趴趴照那我提出一些解方我提出一些質疑點我不是找貴婦麻煩而是希望你們能夠思考一下怎麼解決然後怎麼跟行政院那邊去溝通不能說"},{"start":846.471,"end":871.292,"text":"只有被害人沒有人權 被告人權滿檔啊 不能這樣子啦你法務部不能再用實質廢死在餵養下一個殺人犯 我跟你講今天齁 有一個 另外一個主題是法官怎麼判刑我跟你講 民國98年的時候有一個兇嫌黃富康 因為心情不好 他就隨機殺人他把房東也殺了 他還要想殺他的老...還要砍他老婆小孩 結果呢"},{"start":872.435,"end":901.431,"text":"他在監獄裡面關了十幾年最後病死在監獄裡面所以他等不到槍決他被判死刑定驗了但等不到槍決就病死在牢裡面那司法院的報告這次啊司法院報告這次你們也引用先判八說要最嚴密的正當法律程序然後講的也是新聞在講的那八大關卡所以我們今天我們這中華民國變成是要判死跟登天一樣難要執行死刑那更困難所以就都不用了嘛"},{"start":902.091,"end":926.086,"text":"我國現在犯罪成本超級低啊 部長我知道你聽了中言蜜語啦 聽了你可能不爽但是我還是必須告訴你 我們現在我們的司法系統我們的法務部以及司法院 聯合努力之下讓我們這個國家 犯罪的成本壓到很低那我今天 台灣人民看到的是什麼"},{"start":927.335,"end":948.526,"text":"一個毫無悔意隨機獵殺房東殺妻兒的這個死刑犯國家用納稅錢養他養了一輩子而且不依法執行死刑犯在台灣變成民存死亡這就是實質廢死所以殺人犯就覺得反正我只要拖得夠久國家就不敢殺你如果我們讓死刑犯有這種感覺部長對不對 是不是這樣"},{"start":951.93,"end":979.15,"text":"部長你們都不執行嘛我有執行過啊對我知道謝謝你所以這個就是本來應該要做的嘛我們不是人民對政府的最卑微的期待不是就是依法行政依法行政拜託依法行政這不是人民最卑微的期待嗎那請問其他34名死刑犯呢這些都死刑定驗的為什麼還要繼續拖你是不是還要讓外界覺得反正多年以後還是可以逃過死刑所以這34名呢部長"},{"start":981.707,"end":983.454,"text":"这还有34名你们怎么处理"},{"start":986.343,"end":1014.271,"text":"這部分現在最高檢在依刑判的意思在主案的審查是我要提非常上訴那我想我們就那沒有提的呢沒有提的你是不是要執行了這部分最高檢要審核他審核如果說沒有非常上訴的或其他的一些申請再審的一個室友沒有我跟你講你們真的是佛心來的對被告超級好被國家關到死都不用執行我跟你講"},{"start":1015.393,"end":1041.288,"text":"苗栗那個齁暴力前科犯出獄之後根本沒有完整的追蹤跟剿制在街頭再犯這代表什麼我們國家的刑事政策根本兩頭空嘛要嘛對犯下極端惡行的人你就猶豫不決然後搞他實質廢死要嘛對於有再犯風險的前科犯你也缺乏追蹤啊人放回社會就不管了嘛我們看到的是這樣人民看到的是這樣你技術性的"},{"start":1042.408,"end":1056.282,"text":"阻擋死刑其實在凌遲那些被害人家屬啦然後我再跟你說2019年10月4號有一個中華警政研究學會他有一個議題從隨機殺人案件談社會安全網的建制他會議紀錄第12到第14頁當時那個"},{"start":1062.325,"end":1085.621,"text":"著作者他也去提到兩個案例第一個湯姆雄殺人案的那個兇手還有第二個北投國小割喉案湯姆雄那殺人案的兇手怎麼樣他說犯案前我有上網查過判決在台灣殺一兩個人不會被判死刑那我在牢裡關一輩子就好所以他殺了一個10歲而已10歲而已的小朋友"},{"start":1086.687,"end":1099.64,"text":"然後這個人在上網前查判決他發現精算過犯罪成本超級低連法務部跟司法院聯手搞實質廢死把判死刑跟執行死刑的門檻搞得跟天一樣高"},{"start":1100.868,"end":1122.63,"text":"那你不就告訴全國的這些潛在的罪犯你放心殺就算你殺小孩只要不要殺太多個都沒事國家會養你一輩子國家國立養生村讓你在裡面住一輩子更慘的是2016年這個人果然如他所願判無期徒刑所以沒有判死刑啊他的預言成真啊"},{"start":1123.686,"end":1149.78,"text":"所以最快25年後也可以出來這就是一個悲哀那北投國小那個割喉案那個殺的是8歲的女童他說我想自殺但是沒有勇氣也許住到監獄裡面我的幻聽就會不見了所以他是換一個地方養老就我剛講的國立養生村請問一下貴院貴部你們是在獎勵犯罪者嗎你們為什麼要實質的去推動這個"},{"start":1151.401,"end":1178.486,"text":"廢除死刑我們是執行死刑現在宣判113年 宣判8次的那個也是所以我剛講的三四名死刑犯到現在也都沒有執行啊已經過了那麼久了 還是一樣嘛所以是不是我有時候氣到講不下去啦2017年無期徒刑定讞國家就是養他們一輩子所以到最後最可怕的是"},{"start":1179.758,"end":1206.234,"text":"他們殺人之前上網去查 查完之後認為成本很低去殺了一個不認識的小朋友 毫無恩怨的小朋友殺完之後如願所長 法務部司法院變成許願池許願判無期徒刑 果然無期徒刑好 進去關 爽了25年之後 申請假釋就有可能出來這是我們現在看到的社會問題啊這個一二審法院都是有判 最近的憲判發作法院也是有判死刑的案例啊"},{"start":1207.054,"end":1211.991,"text":"我知道但是所以我没有说废除死刑我是说你们实质废死"},{"start":1214.629,"end":1239.227,"text":"這34個人也是判死刑定讞但是貴部連執行都不敢執行嘛不是就這樣嗎不是不敢執行啊 有執行啊對 你有執行一個嘛 謝謝你但是依法行政不是最基本的嗎對不對 還有34個沒有執行喔我跟國人說 我已經執行一個了所以我有執行 是這樣子嗎更不要講當時社會輿論說這個人根本被殺就是拿來記其用的是當時社會發生的問題 拿來記其用的"},{"start":1242.009,"end":1260.687,"text":"我想喔 最後我跟部長報告一件事情你不能做到齁 整天在搞提升健舉運什麼加強什麼我還沒講完齁 捷運暫停的守望 因為這會怎麼樣這會讓警察累死 法務部裝死"},{"start":1261.707,"end":1290.239,"text":"我看到的是這樣 警察類似法務部莊職法務部沒有莊職 如果說有莊職的話這件事我確定要公知 我沒有莊職你怎麼可以直接就講法務部莊職我又受不了法務部長了我又受不了法務部長了法務部長 可不可以請我講完話之後再請你論述你的委屈好不好部長 當警察在寒風中站崗的時候櫃部在幹嘛 在辦公室冷氣房裡面在想怎麼幫死刑犯逃死"},{"start":1291.339,"end":1292.9,"text":"我剛有說了 我講完之後 請部長論述嘛可不可以 部長"},{"start":1314.941,"end":1328.97,"text":"麻煩部長我講完之後再請部長論述部長我剛講了警察在韓風中執行站崗的時候我們法務部在辦公室想怎麼幫這些被告逃避死刑我們今天看到的是這個樣子"},{"start":1330.071,"end":1346.45,"text":"你要研究怎麼樣讓死刑更難執行所以我一直覺得當國家沒有辦法保障人民不被殺死卻可以保障殺人犯在殺人之後不被判死這是我現在看到我憂心國家的一個問題所以我對法務部有兩點"},{"start":1347.671,"end":1362.487,"text":"要求 最後這兩點 我說第一個啟動73他的這個前科名單就剛你們貴部106年的那個報告第二個 儘速公開交代除了微死刑的那兩個殺人犯之外其他的殺人犯目前處理"},{"start":1363.573,"end":1380.499,"text":"處理的進度 這跟偵查不公開無關請公佈讓我們國人都知道我跟你講我剛剛講的那兩個隨意殺人的那個殺小孩的那個只是想吃老飯但是呢他卻利用貴部的一些想法那他們現在就是很開心的在他的國立養生村裡面去過"},{"start":1381.619,"end":1390.282,"text":"爽爽的在那邊過日子齁而且不要再用這個什麼督導小組這種虛設的這個單位來騙社會等一下等我講完部長我讓你講齁這種虛設單位來騙社會這個沒有意義這是拿來騙立法院齁拜託法務部做有遠見部長你不是來吵架的我跟你講完之後讓你講部長 部長可不可以我講完之後我讓你講嘛部長"},{"start":1408.715,"end":1429.512,"text":"部長我講完之後我一直在一再的說我講完之後讓你講嘛那我剛剛提的那兩個建議嘛制度上面有建議因為我覺得法務部不是在處理一個單一個案而是在為國家的有做一些有遠見做一些制度性改革的事好 部長 讓部長講他如果喜歡講讓他講好 麻煩部長最後一分鐘然後之後因為今天時間已經超過很多了 不打斷你讓你講"},{"start":1430.469,"end":1435.492,"text":"我對吳委員你講說檢察官在裝死在辦公室吹冷氣這部分我嚴正的駁斥你當過檢察官你也知道檢察官非常的辛苦像今天這個1.2.1.9的隨機殺人事件檢察官在第一時間主任檢察官帶檢察官直接趕回現場了"},{"start":1448.3,"end":1477.298,"text":"那我們第一時間也責負了請要求的那個那個整個台高有成立的一個督導小組然後給檢察官然後每一個地檢署都動起來就是應變小組那這段時間沒做為一個網路的巡邏也查緝了那麼多的案件也壓了14個人辦了37個案件辦了另外還有緊職安置1人那這個也起訴了5件了5人了那這部分怎麼會在在吹在辦公室吹冷氣然後你你跟我講說我也你有講說你有證據說我們檢察官在幫被告"},{"start":1477.978,"end":1503.975,"text":"在免除他的那個死刑我們就是嚴正的對惡性重大的最嚴重影響社會治安的這下我們就具體嚴重的一個這個具體的求重刑你怎麼會去講 你當過檢察會怎麼講這種話部長 我在講東你在講西我剛講的是在實質廢死的部分你在那邊跟我講社會個案我從來沒有說社會個案的檢察官沒有認真我也沒有說警察沒有認真但是我們看到的就是你不敢執行死刑"},{"start":1508.178,"end":1522.359,"text":"我看到的是這個點所以我從頭到尾我講的是實質廢死的部分你要去扯到個案不用來騙我們 我邏輯能力沒有那麼差可以這樣講嗎 可以這樣講說我們檢查在辦公室吹冷氣在那邊幫被告那個那個實質廢死就是這樣沒有 沒有這回事啦"},{"start":1523.2,"end":1547.846,"text":"你關在裡面那麼久為什麼不敢執行部長你為什麼憲判八出來之前有多少人關了十幾年為什麼你不敢執行如果你說憲判八出來之後我無話可說憲判八出來之前為什麼部長你不敢執行憲判八出來之前部長我再三講了為什麼憲判八出來之前你已經當部長了為什麼你不敢執行好謝謝好謝謝好請回座"},{"start":1554.619,"end":1556.589,"text":"好 接下来我们请林庆祺委员发言"}]}},{"id":"166753","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166753","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb122872b22f45a237529097fae15897403c0748ef97bdf76601c8d1a4ee289610d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:10:45 - 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請委員長"},{"start":9.088,"end":35.868,"text":"謝委員你好委員長我看到了僑委會就是說你們相關的就是海外就是僑商就是間接的這個成果但我想要了解我知道僑委會一定了解就是僑商是我國非常重要的一個海外鏈接的一個就是說我們主力"},{"start":37.089,"end":54.742,"text":"對然後不管是在生產不管是在商業的鏈結以及未來人才的培養上面都非常重要那對於在經濟的部分我想要請問我們是不是能夠在"},{"start":56.463,"end":75.096,"text":"藉由橋商這樣子的平台在海外也能夠發展永續的這樣子一個就是說不管是碳灰的基地也好或者是有沒有這樣子的一個規劃據你了解委員我不是很了解你的內容是"},{"start":76.457,"end":99.762,"text":"因為就是說我們海外的僑界他們所居住的僑居地其實他們的土地都比台灣還要大部分都大大很多所以在不管是碳匯或者是就是說種樹或者是用不同的方式當然現在也有很多是藻類或者是什麼等等的"},{"start":100.262,"end":122.819,"text":"那来作为一个能够成为碳交易平台以及能够让台湾的厂商有相关的这样子一个就是说寻找这种碳交易的这种碳或碳中和的这样子一个是不是乔委会未来也可以做相关的"},{"start":125.534,"end":146.955,"text":"這樣我了解了那個跟委員報告就是因為過去這三年中我們都一直在不斷的希望協助海外橋台上能夠升級那除了在數位化的智慧生產方面升級以外我們當然很重視ESG所以在ESG上面我們過去這幾年無論在北美洲或是在亞洲"},{"start":148.255,"end":152.438,"text":"或者在歐洲甚至後來我們鼓勵那個世界台商總會去成立一個ESG的委員會專門來各國做各項的這個除了論壇然後這個實際的交流以外那麼近年來呢我們在亞洲地區確實也有成立了一些具體的"},{"start":169.406,"end":170.567,"text":"叫做碳中和協會那碳中和協會現在在東南亞國家他們逐漸越來越擴張從泰國開始到越南那麼我們也具體有從113年開始就協服我們海外的台商在溫室氣體的盤查輔導計畫"},{"start":191.261,"end":195.104,"text":"那這個計畫呢我們去年是選了兩家台商因為我們相對給他補助他也要自己出一部分的資金然後我們給他這個企業做企業診斷讓他知道他要怎麼改善以便可以符合未來這個淨零碳排RE100如果他的這個產品未來是要銷往歐洲"},{"start":214.338,"end":218.479,"text":"那它要符合這個RE100的時候那它需要做哪些廠區的這個生產設備的改善或者它的整體的這個能源的運用或是它的原料的來源等等那這一部分我們從去年開始事實上確實有在應該說112年開始在先做一個民意調查調查完以後我們是去年開始做具體的輔導計畫"},{"start":238.686,"end":243.128,"text":"那就由廠商來申請以後我們選出兩家做試驗型的計畫那到今年呢我們更進一步就加強這個企業淨零碳排的計畫當中呢我們有辦了三場的這個成果分享會也說這兩家已經被我們這個做企業診斷完以後輔導完以後我們請他來分享他如何去改善"},{"start":260.134,"end":264.176,"text":"那擴張他的市場那同時我們也跟亞洲台商總會一起合作在他們的這個年會當中呢辦理這個溫室氣體盤查的計畫成果的分享會那今年呢我們也有辦這個淨零碳排的種子培訓營那有來自泰國美國菲律賓韓國印尼越南巴西等七個國家那這些國家的這個參與者我們同時也"},{"start":289.266,"end":318.184,"text":"除了他們回來台灣參加我們也有派人出去在各國去做演講所以這部分是雙向的有在長期的進行好這個部分是我們橋委會協助橋商在做這個碳的這個ESG相關的發展嗎那但是因為你剛才提到就是說你也間接了就是海外的橋商來參與參訪工研院那我知道說工研院也有非常多相關的減碳的技術等等那"},{"start":319.445,"end":337.742,"text":"就是有礙於說台灣的土地就是不夠大或者是規模不夠大那如果橋商願意協助台灣在海外發展相關的技術那對於整體的碳排也有相關的減排那甚至能夠協助國內的"},{"start":340.065,"end":351.104,"text":"廠商做相關的探交易或是相關的合作的時候我認為未來這也是應該僑委會可以去協助間接的一個方向"},{"start":351.65,"end":354.992,"text":"對委員所提的這個事實上就叫做綠色產業的概念那過去20年德國是非常積極在發展這一方面的產業規模那近年來台灣也小有成績那麼所以我們的一些研究單位新興的一些技術如果廠商願意去做一些試用他們可以進行簽約那他的技術上就會派人去專家指導"},{"start":380.808,"end":392.566,"text":"那這個部分確實是有的我們有在鼓勵我們的海外台商說他們如果未來的市場端是到歐美市場的話那他們一定要逐步的達到這個RE100的目標"},{"start":395.811,"end":400.815,"text":"那因此他們的各項的生產技術他們就要符合這些相關的標準所以這幾年我們已經連續三年都有請國內的專家學者出去海外做巡迴的演講之外還有座談會以及就是說就個案進行輔導作業我們每一次座談會完我們也會做民意調查"},{"start":419.608,"end":436.877,"text":"就是回收看看大家的需求是哪一些然後也會分門別類因為每一個產業別他的需求會有點不一樣那可見的未來是歐盟的市場他對於碳中和跟碳交易這件事情已經是明年就即將上路要實施了那所以國內的這個主導單位應當是我沒有了解錯的話應該是經濟部與環境部那經濟部與環境部他們也有密切在"},{"start":447.802,"end":468.215,"text":"交流所以我們帶我們的這個橋台商到國內如果進行參訪的話基本上也會去辦會這些相關的單位好那還有就是說我知道說橋委會也有一個就是海外的就是台灣青年的海外搭橋的計畫搭橋計畫對那已經辦理了多年那我必須要"},{"start":473.599,"end":489.66,"text":"提醒僑委會就是說必須希望說僑委會能夠就是說多多延攬像就是說彰化或者是相關偏鄉的就是優秀的青年到海外去做這樣子相關的大橋計劃因為畢竟"},{"start":492.863,"end":512.77,"text":"從語言的這個就是說資源來說像彰化或者當然就不及六都等這種都會區的學校但是如果青年有意就是去從事相關的工作的時候我覺得僑委會應該要給予他們特別的支持"},{"start":513.53,"end":531.213,"text":"因為畢竟就是說有礙於相關的就是學習上面就是對於語言學習上面支援的這個障礙那如果當我們彰化的青年有這樣子的一個需求的時候那是不是希望僑委會能夠大力的支持"},{"start":531.937,"end":536.82,"text":"謝謝委員關注我們這個計畫確實我們這個計畫在國內也很受到大學生的歡迎計畫我們都是在網路公開的徵求但標準其實就是兩個第一個就是說他們要有一個申請的計畫就是他們參加我們搭橋的方案以後他們要怎麼promote台灣第二個當然語言能力是很重要"},{"start":559.136,"end":579.902,"text":"今年以今年到目前為止我們都是以英語為主但明年開始我們我們打算開辦新的模式就是我們分七條路線在不同的國家那不同的國家有不同的語系比方說有一條路線要去越南那我們這個時候就是要求的是有多越南語的能力這個就優先的"},{"start":581.542,"end":598.61,"text":"比較好的資格過去我們單純以英文的時候都是C1級的因為來的學生老實說跟委員報告非常優秀所以他們語言能力基本上沒有到C1級的幾乎就已經被排除掉了所以我們在過程當中我們也"},{"start":601.751,"end":610.793,"text":"嘗試用一些新的計畫希望能夠廣納不同的學生也讓新住民學生也多一點機會所以我們現在就是說藉著我們路線不一樣的國度那如果有多一種語言我們就在英文之外再加一個本土當地語言的這個這個條件然後讓他增加多一點不同的機會以上報告"},{"start":625.097,"end":651.203,"text":"能夠考量到就是說一些偏向因為北中南我知道這個南部的委員也都關心這個問題對不同的這個是但中部以北的大學確實人數比較多啦所以來報名的人數會集中在北部那當然也會在台北讀大學啦但是他們先天上就是說我們從也有很多彰化的學子有來參加我們計畫有有有他們考上北部的學校的對對對好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好"}]}},{"id":"166744","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166744","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb1e9c6294ca454a70929097fae15897403c47a344ae2d12b243a5392e6bceeeece5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:10:49 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我們明年也會到越南 泰國 菲律賓事實上包括北美洲 美洲縣不管是北美洲或中南美就是我們僑胞比較聚集的 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謝謝主席 麻煩委員長前委員長王委員長 委員長 老趙你今天比較辛苦一點不會不會好 那個我第一個問題是跟中國剛執行的不正義沒有使命的軍演有關係啦他們很會取名字就是拿軍事力量威脅別的國家叫做"},{"start":28.297,"end":57.176,"text":"正義使命這個就是黑白顛倒獎但是合謀是他們的權利那中國軍事常態化在台灣周邊在日本旁邊在渤海灣黃海韓國旁邊南海菲律賓旁邊甚至於今年二月份跑到澳洲的外海進行實彈軍演所以中國這種軍演威脅區域和平穩定台灣當然首當其衝但台灣絕對不是唯一啦那這跟你們僑委會有什麼關係呢"},{"start":58.457,"end":81.333,"text":"我要請教就是說我們海外的僑界支持中華民國台灣的僑界或者過去傳統像蝶敏月那邊有一些反共的僑界對於這些軍演我們僑委會有做了哪些努力或者有哪些聲音以國際盟友來講縱使沒有正式的邦交關係歐盟歐盟發表的談話叫做"},{"start":82.553,"end":103.659,"text":"中國軍演加劇了這個區域的緊張危及了國際的和平穩定歐盟還說歐盟的發言人正式出來說台海是一個非常重要地方牽涉到國際的安全跟繁榮的戰略重要性這個是歐盟那我再舉個例子英國外相說"},{"start":105.419,"end":131.52,"text":"反對 他一樣 他認為中國的軍演影響到區域的和平穩定反對這種片面的去影響現狀影響和平穩定的一些作為呼籲用對話來取代軍演日本 日本直接透過共同社表達他們外交單位有向中國表達中國軍演對這個區域形成區域緊張的影響"},{"start":132.864,"end":148.759,"text":"那川普總統呢很有意思川普總統他直接講中國不敢啦中國不敢啦不會啦他的口氣也是 我沒辦法模仿他啦那美國的台灣連線的主席這Craig"},{"start":149.605,"end":176.625,"text":"他表達說中國這個軍演影響了區域的和平穩定他們給予譴責並且呼籲加速提供台灣必要的自衛能力另外共和黨的軍事委員會在軍事委員會的主席Wicker他訪問過台灣Wicker也表達了跟台灣連線共同的看法我還可以念法國的啦菲律賓都有啦這一些聲明有一個共同的特色"},{"start":177.779,"end":206.782,"text":"就是誰在鬧事?中國它所有的共同特色就是中國的軍演破壞了這個區域的和平穩定製造了區域的緊張呼籲什麼?呼籲中國不要單方面改變和平現狀不要單方面改變海峽現狀這大概就是共同的政治的呼籲我比較遺憾的台灣竟然有在台灣的政黨直接是講台灣犯錯所以中國才軍演"},{"start":207.623,"end":234.058,"text":"那個軍演要準備數週數月的沒有一件事情隔夜就能軍演的那給合理化威脅者合理化他的藉口然後對內部呢拿著中共的槍桿子對內部進行威脅什麼可以主張什麼不能主張這個是政治問題你當政務官不適合回答我現在要問的就是各國的國際盟友都在"},{"start":235.632,"end":250.332,"text":"指著中國說你製造區域緊張希望和平穩定而破壞和平穩定的是中國就目前僑委會我不知道你們這幾天有沒有聯絡全球的僑界目前僑界支持中華民國台灣的僑界的聲音是什麼"},{"start":251.17,"end":279.285,"text":"第一個我們當然把這個重大訊息讓我們180位在海外的僑務委員要優先知道這個事情那由於我們今年的僑務委員會議已經在進行全社會防衛任性的一個演練所以台灣任何的這個無論是天災或是有任何的緊急事故的變動那我們海外的僑界呢都是24小時密切"},{"start":279.845,"end":296.006,"text":"僑界有沒有聲音有沒有組織化的聲音因為他們都在各僑居國嘛他們當地國的政治領袖都在譴責這樣的軍演聲援和平穩定聲援台灣那我們的僑界有沒有比較具體的聲音出來"},{"start":297.706,"end":323.425,"text":"目前僑界當然僑務委員他們是彼此都在互相的聯繫然後討論或者是去表達這個給他們在地的國會議員希望能夠大家維持兩岸的這個區域穩定跟和平的狀態但是沒有僑界具體的活動我更具體來講我們僑委會每年我們編這些預算在服務僑界"},{"start":324.345,"end":340.394,"text":"在國家面對威脅的時候僑會應該更進一步我們透過僑界的影響力去影響當地的國會議員地方政要該國對台灣對中華民國給予更大的支援這個是我剛才講的是收集有沒有相關的訊息"},{"start":340.994,"end":356.422,"text":"我現在更進一步我們能不能讓喬介在對他自己的故國台灣做多一點的貢獻那對於有一些他根本不是我們國家的人我講的滇緬月喬他們是長期反共支持中華民國的可以發揮他的影響力你們目前有沒有這個工作的計畫"},{"start":357.89,"end":380.959,"text":"我們是希望未來要朝向這個方向沒有錯所以是為什麼我們今年開始做這個防衛任性的演練也就是說讓海外的僑界可以做跨國性的跨區域的一些組織的脈絡一旦有任何狀況的時候看起來你們目前還是在被動的收集資訊那我期待因為中國對台灣的威脅過去幾十年越來越緊迫了從歷史的長河來看台灣不管誰執政"},{"start":385.501,"end":401.996,"text":"中國對台的軍演沒有少過那把它規則於誰執政就怎麼樣不僅是歷史的文盲而且是附和了中共的論調委員我們在還沒有成立在野黨就是不能說在野黨"},{"start":403.738,"end":426.25,"text":"未解嚴前只有一個政黨的時代就已經受到中共非常大的威脅從來沒有停過Google也有就是說從台灣本身的政治更迭來上來講他要侵略併吞台灣不會因為誰執政停止從地緣政治來看威脅的也不是只有台灣難道菲律賓是民進黨執政日本是民進黨當首相澳洲現在首相是民進黨執政"},{"start":426.63,"end":446.605,"text":"即便同為共產國家的越南也經常受到對 沒有錯從客觀的國際現實從台灣內部的政治更迭這件事情是國際麻煩製造者中國的野心跟台灣的政治局勢其實是無關但我很遺憾國內有這樣做所以我剛才問就是說我們僑委會從收集資訊到主動"},{"start":450.228,"end":462.464,"text":"營造僑界做出有我的行動以外我現在問的另外一個就是那如果有因為僑務委員是政府的職務啊他也是一個榮譽職當然我們還有僑務的榮譽職我們有僑務委員榮譽的僑務職不管什麼樣的職務"},{"start":466.53,"end":481.397,"text":"但僑務委員是總統聘任的有法源依據的總是這些頭銜是來自我國的法源依據我們政府的一級機關給予授權嘛如果有僑務委員去附和中國的說法認為是台灣挑釁認為是委員這個以前有發生過"},{"start":490.203,"end":504.516,"text":"馬總統時期因此開除了兩個僑務委員所以當時馬政府也開除僑務委員嘛是沒錯所以我說這個一致的這個沒有分誰執政我的意思說現在如果我們僑務委員中國的軍演中國的軍演結果附和中共的論調"},{"start":505.845,"end":532.092,"text":"指台灣挑釁這有點像色狼意圖對女性不軌你不去檢討色狼檢討女性的穿著一樣荒謬我們要講什麼主張什麼是一個自由民主開放社會的權利不管叫總統或者是菜市場做生意的都有主張的權利沒有人可以拿槍桿子來威脅一個自由民主國家你可以主張什麼你不能主張什麼主張那個造成別人拿槍威脅你就是我們自己不對"},{"start":532.992,"end":538.276,"text":"我們自己國內有人這樣主張那是國人沒辦法開除這個人啊但是如果有僑務委員做這樣的主張的話我會要求僑務委員過去馬政府也開除過兩個對你們應該要去看有沒有會 我們會來了解如果他們有在群組或公開做這些狀況我這邊不公開點名啦我有資料我會給你啦好的我認為這個是"},{"start":555.67,"end":570.684,"text":"黨派是民主競爭OK國家存亡是共同利益沒有黨派之分如果有人拿軍拿軍事力量拿著槍指著我們國人的腦袋還在附和他的話"},{"start":572.082,"end":594.286,"text":"哪有一丁點資格跟臉皮拿我們國家榮譽紙這個就要處理所以這一個部分我認為我們僑委會可以從收集資訊進一步影響僑界做出對台灣有利的事情到進一步我們要看看哪一些人其實是拿著中華民國國旗反中華民國這個應該要做處理請委員提供資訊謝謝委員長謝謝王委員"}]}},{"id":"166745","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166745","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb1eca95c0124d2d1cd29097fae15897403c47a344ae2d12b2456a65096fc31f86f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:19:11 - 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主席有請徐委員長請委員長林委員長安委員長好 一切都好嗎我很好"},{"start":15.661,"end":32.34,"text":"我們來看一個我想這個部分其實我已經在發現的時候就跟僑委會聯絡過了那麼也了解了過程但是我認為還是有必要提出來質詢那是因為我們來看喔這個在台灣國內當然面對這種所謂錯假訊息假帳號的狀況"},{"start":33.621,"end":44.804,"text":"其實國人是非常了解的但是到了海外之後我認為其實很多海外的朋友可能也不知道當我第一時間看到這個所謂鴻門志工總堂的時候我感到非常的驚訝因為在橋界我想委員長也知道這個志工堂是一個在橋界非常有威望而且有影響力的一個所謂華僑組織喔"},{"start":57.788,"end":73.843,"text":"但是他們居然會發布這樣的一個訊息要求要提供所謂軍人的照片來反戰那麼我想第一時間我也就覺得非常的奇怪那麼僑委會在查證之後的過程是不是發現這是一個假的帳號那麼這樣的狀況多嗎還是說這只是一個單純的偶發事件因為"},{"start":80.109,"end":83.112,"text":"通常詐騙放在網路上說實話這種假的帳號假的訊息都是為了詐騙啦就是為了騙財喔那麼但是他居然要求的是一個要軍裝的照片這背後就讓人覺得似乎不單純"},{"start":96.866,"end":113.365,"text":"尤其是搭配這幾天剛好有這個中國的不正義軍演那麼整體來說會覺得是不是中國在形塑這個所謂文攻武嚇甚至於在僑界也發動了這樣的一個所謂認知作戰"},{"start":115.862,"end":130.295,"text":"謝謝林委員的垂詢我的了解無煙消的戰爭是不斷的持續著早就開打但是這種我先講鴻門志工堂是一個反共的組織"},{"start":131.636,"end":156.592,"text":"他們長期是以美國作為他們發展的這個主要的國度那已經有150年的歷史了但是我這幾年也發現就是說鴻門志工堂事實上在美國以外的地區在中國及台灣都還有一樣在設立可是其實是完全是同樣名稱但是完全不同的組織因為他所登記的地點是不一樣的國度"},{"start":159.514,"end":173.854,"text":"所以鴻門志工堂在美國他們是在當地有登記的社團組織那可是這個在海外其他沒有登記的國家呢就有另外的由中共扶植的單位在登記這個組織所以會造成這個混淆"},{"start":176.737,"end":193.986,"text":"借名借殼上市的味道因為像我現在找到的這個它甚至於是中國的信箱所以言下之意就是把人家的名字拿來用然後企圖榆木混珠其實就是這樣如果我們都知道說現在是大家智慧財產權跟商標權很重視的一個時代"},{"start":197.248,"end":221.161,"text":"那如果你沒有在該國有這個登記其他人就可以把你登記去登記完以後這個就變成是他可以用的了所以真正的原來的鴻門志工堂他現在就不能在台灣登記他也不能在中國登記因為這個名字被其他的人拿去登記了那事實上他們是完全不同的組織所以乍看之下很多人都不理解說這個鴻門志工堂不是反共的嗎怎麼會做出這種動作呢"},{"start":223.362,"end":238.383,"text":"那至今呢在美國的鴻門志工堂還是堅定支持中華民國台灣的自由民主那對於這個錯假帳號的狀況事實上這一個在我看來就是在中國登記的這個鴻門志工堂他們最早是從香港開始的"},{"start":240.085,"end":268.02,"text":"那他們登記之後當然他們我不知道這個是他們刻意要去影響這個做統戰的一種策略或者亦或是在幫中共收集什麼樣的情資所以不單純只是假帳號的概念而已事實上是遺用別人的名稱在不同國度登記之後然後來進行相關的工作那因為鴻門志工堂的人是這樣他們也真的很有情有義的"},{"start":268.76,"end":273.624,"text":"早期很多人就是說為了保護鄉里或者自己在這個Trinatown裡面做生意的安全治安問題因此他們去成立了鴻門志工是為了維護當地的治安需求結果沒想到經過這一百多年的歷史演變現在變成在中國的地區呢甚至在台灣呢也有登記那這個社團呢變成是"},{"start":293.582,"end":316.579,"text":"中共的某種統戰的組織之一了所以對於他們做出這種做法來騙取穿軍服的人我覺得確實是非常不單純的一個做法那當然我們一方面除了要了解說是不是有錯假訊息另外一方面我們當然也基於保護國人的安全跟個資的問題我們一定會努力的跟大家來說明說個人的這個資料還是"},{"start":323.044,"end":346.132,"text":"可能的不要隨便提供給他人因為這個在僑界當中一定會有許多人誤會尤其是他所要求的不單純他要我的竟然是著軍裝那麼言下之意他就是要求可能我們的國軍弟兄那麼像這樣的一個運用就是其實已經是進入了就像你講的吳妍瀟的作戰那麼也是認知作戰的一環"},{"start":346.732,"end":351.716,"text":"那麼在這個部分喬介有沒有發散或者是當遇到類似這種所謂的藉口然後上市甚至於以一種以假亂真的方式在進行協助中國做統戰的時候那麼我們在喬介的部分訊息的澄清或者是訊息的了解的擴散有沒有這樣的一個組織性或者是說我們有這樣的一個SOP來做處理呢"},{"start":373.496,"end":378.598,"text":"有 我們對於這種錯假訊息或者是認知作戰過去這兩年確實有強化提供我們同仁訓練同時也要求同仁在最短時間內要把一些資訊就散到我們僑界的各種群組裡面來提醒那目前這一個以這個案例來講委員所提供的這個案例並沒有到美國去看起來它是鎖定在台灣而已"},{"start":403.405,"end":407.347,"text":"所以他等於是一種所謂外銷轉內銷直接他其實想要詐騙的反而是國內甚至於我們的國軍同胞是尤其是退伍軍人因為退伍軍人他們過去在服役的時候還是有一些同袍或者上司或者有一些關係那他們希望透過這種關係的建立來達到什麼樣的一個目的我們不知道但是確實以特定的人士"},{"start":432.959,"end":437.782,"text":"著軍裝這樣子的一個徵尋照片的做法確實是有很大的這個問題存在不過這個目前沒有在我們海外的僑社產生什麼影響反而我這個拿去跟我們舊金山的總堂確認的時候他們還很吃驚說怎麼會有這種東西百分百不是他們的他們早就沒有不可能做這種事情而且這個事情做出來對他講沒有意義"},{"start":458.976,"end":465.009,"text":"沒有意義真的沒有意義那可見得就是我後來也去了解就是說這個基本上是"},{"start":466.298,"end":471.04,"text":"掛的好像是美國舊金山這個什麼什麼什麼事實上就是他其實是假的他是要騙國內不知情的第三者在這個過程當中會不會因著這個獎金或者說因為他是海外的然後取得信任以至於他就去參加了這個活動那這種的話我想他都是一種惡意的做法因為我們已經有跟總堂確實認證過這件事情"},{"start":492.99,"end":507.58,"text":"而且這個其實就是一種想要以假亂真甚至於就像剛剛這個您所提到的他希望營造說原來這樣的一個堅定反共的社團其實現在也不反共了甚至於要要求和平那麼好那謝謝這個徐委員長的回覆那麼謝謝謝謝林委員"}]}},{"id":"17160","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17160","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db1053bf0f00000d752a224d5448421715fd00d8c029a2fce593a286194af506ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查：\n本院委員林宜瑾等22人、委員劉建國等16人、委員徐巧芯等17人、委員李坤城等22人、委員廖先翔等19人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等18人、委員郭昱晴等16人、委員林思銘等18人、委員洪孟楷等16人、蘇巧慧等17人、委員吳琪銘等17人、委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員張智倫等16人、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」、委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」、委員鄭天財Sra 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討論事項所列第五案至第十八案尚餘附一期且未接獲院會交付審查之意思處來文故不予審查二 審查通過條文相關法制用以授權主席及議事人員整理散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1620.796,"end":1626.699,"text":"好 那麼我們現在繼續進行討論事項並一併宣讀討論事項 繼續審查依本院委員林益錦等22人委員劉建國等16人委員徐巧欣等17人委員李坤澄等22人委員廖仙翔等19人台灣民眾黨黨團委員郭益勤等16人委員羅廷維等18人委員林思敏等18人委員洪孟凱等16人委員蘇巧慧等17人"},{"start":1648.249,"end":1671.723,"text":"委員吳清明等17人 委員陳廷飛等16人 分別擬據動物保護法部分條件修正草案等13案2 本院委員呂毅霖等16人 委員張志倫等16人 委員葉元芝等17人 分別擬據動物保護法第10條條件修正草案等3案3 本院委員呂毅霖等16人 委員張宏祿等17人 委員郭玉琴等16人 委員楊雄英等21人 分別擬據動物保護法第25條及第25條之1條件修正草案等4案"},{"start":1672.493,"end":1691.751,"text":"4.本院台湾民众党党团委员叶元之等17人分别拟据《动物保护法》第25条之二条文修正草案等2案5.本院委员林黛华等21人拟据《动物保护法》第14条之1第14条之2及第30条条文修正草案6.本院委员郑天才等16人拟据《动物保护法》第2条及第10条条文修正草案"},{"start":1692.473,"end":1721.125,"text":"7.本院委員陳廷飛等18人擬拒《動物保護法》第5條、第20條及第25條條文修正廠案8.本院委員台灣民眾黨黨團擬拒《動物保護法》第2條及第5條條文修正廠案9.本院委員葉元之等17人、委員郭玉琴等21人分別擬拒《動物保護法》增訂第14條之3條文修正廠案等2案10.本院委員葉元之等17人、委員吳佩儀等16人分別擬拒《動物保護法》第25條條文修正廠案等2案11.本院委員游皓等23人擬拒《動物保護法》第25條之1條文修正廠"},{"start":1722.585,"end":1749.37,"text":"12 本院委員吳輝等17人擬拒《東吳保護法》第22條之4條人修正草案13 本院委員賴若隆等17人擬拒《東吳保護法》第2條及第6條之2條人修正草案14 本院委員鄭振淺等19人擬拒《東吳保護法》第32條條人修正草案15 本院委員羅志強等16人擬拒《東吳保護法》第23條條人修正草案16 本院委員郭益勤等19人擬拒《東吳保護法》第25條之2及第33條之2條人修正草案"},{"start":1750.33,"end":1770.715,"text":"17 本院委員邱若驊等16人拟據《動物保護法》第25條之二、第33條之二及第33條之三條件修正查案18 本院委員賴瑞榮等16人拟據《動物保護法》第3條及第5條條件修正查案宣讀完畢好 我們現在介紹在場的官員首先介紹農業部陳俊記陳部長"},{"start":1774.695,"end":1791.536,"text":"謝謝接下來我們動植物防疫檢疫署署我們杜署長大家回來林業級自然保育署我們的林署長謝謝漁業署林副署長"},{"start":1794.338,"end":1819.489,"text":"環境部化學物資管理署副組長盧副組長 謝謝接下來內政部警政署人事室副主任劉副主任 謝謝以及經濟部商業發展署簡副組長 謝謝法務部參事廖參事 謝謝教育部資訊及科技教育師廖專門委員 謝謝以及國科"},{"start":1820.749,"end":1845.94,"text":"國科會生命科學研究發展處李研究員 謝謝接下來衛生福利部心理健康師洪專門委員 謝謝速發部法治處的吳副處長 謝謝接下來國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處蔡專門委員以及原住民委員會經濟發展處王處長"},{"start":1850.23,"end":1873.034,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們本日的議程是審查動物保護法部分條文修正草案已經在本會期12月3號詢答完畢現在進行逐條討論請議事組人員宣讀所有的條文若有修正動議及附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢後再進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":1878.168,"end":1903.351,"text":"委員郭益勤等人提案第一條 除第二項劇中增列並以維持動物生存於原棲地之自然態樣及需求為原則等文字外區均同現行法條文委員羅定偉等人提案第一條 動物具有感知能力 其生命尊嚴應予以尊重並受法律特別保護 為促進動物福利特制定本法 動物之保護 除其他法律有特別保護之規定者適用本法之規定委員蘇喬惠等人提案第一條"},{"start":1904.272,"end":1928.022,"text":"第一項 動物為具感知能力之生命 為尊重動物生命及保護動物 增進動物福利並實現人與動物共生之目的 特制定本法第二項 動物為財產權之客體時 準用動產之規定現行法條文第二項 改列至第三項 為零一警等人提案第二條 除第一項 守具修正為本法所稱主管機關 在中央為農業部外及均同現行法條文"},{"start":1928.584,"end":1947.242,"text":"委員鄭天才等人 委員林思銘等人 臺灣民眾黨黨團 委員羅廷惟等人 委員洪孟楷等人 委員賴日榮等人 委員吳清明等人 委員陳廷飛等人提案第二條 軍統委員林益錦等人提案 委員蘇巧月等人提案第二條 出征訂第三項 為保護動物特設置動物保護警察外區軍統委員林益錦等人提案"},{"start":1948.683,"end":1976.67,"text":"委員徐曉清等人提案 第3條第一款至第5款於劇中飼養前增加繁殖等至其與均同現行法條文台南民眾黨黨團提案 第3條序文及第1款均同現行法條文第2款至第13款 同委員徐曉清等人提案增訂第14款 動物安養長期照顧 指動物身體失能給予照顧及相關之義務服務 使動物能受到安寧及中牢照護委員蘇巧慧等人提案 第3條 除第1款修正為"},{"start":1977.41,"end":2000.688,"text":"動物指脊椎動物及其他經中央主管機關指定之非脊椎動物 第二款修正為經濟利用 只會取得皮毛肉用乳用 義用或其他經濟目的而利用動物之行為 第四款修正為寵物指供伴侶之目的 經中央主管機關公告或許可得飼養或管理之動物 第八款修正為寵物食品業者指經營寵物食品之製造 加工 分裝 批發 販賣 運送 組存"},{"start":2003.69,"end":2028.485,"text":"輸入或輸出之業者第九款修正為虐待只因作為或不作為之動物遭受不必要之痛苦或使其無法維持正常生理或心理狀態者及現行法條文第四條改列為第三款第四款改列為第三款第六款至第八款改列為第五款至第七款第十一款至第十三款改列為第十款至第十二款外區域均同現行法條文"},{"start":2029.554,"end":2055.274,"text":"文國疫情等人提案第三條除第一款修正為動物指人為飼養或管理之脊椎動物或經主管機關指定適用本法之非脊椎動物第二款修正為寵物用品指為供應經中央主管機關指定之寵物均衡營養或促進健康成長之食料補充品及其他物質第十款修正為虐待對寵物生理或心理造成傷害痛苦緊迫或恐懼之作為或不作為合法之動物利用且為過當者不在指限外"},{"start":2055.854,"end":2079.122,"text":"區域精通現行法條文 委內瑞隆等16年提案第3條 屬增訂第14款寵物用品只為滿足寵物日常生活健康安全娛樂及飼主照護需求而設計製造或販售之各類物品區域精通各類物品外區域精通現行法條文委員 郭益勤等人提案 增訂第4條之二各級政府為積極促進動物保護 動物救傷與醫療"},{"start":2080.754,"end":2109.423,"text":"收容所友善環境之發展及第4條第1項之動物福利教育等事項應跨列動物保護預算保障專管專用委員蘇小愛等人提案 增訂第4條之二 中央儲管機關應成立動物保護基金基金來源如下 依政府循預算程序之撥款 二違反本法所處之法環 三民間經證 四本基金之期收入 五其他收入前一項基金專攻動物保護之用 其資用項目如下 依受虐受傷動物之救治醫療與照護"},{"start":2110.703,"end":2139.326,"text":"二 動物收容環境之改善 三 遊蕩動物之安置與保護四 其他經中央主管機關核定有關動物保護之優先事項前項基金運用及監督運用及管理監督辦法由中央主管機關定之委員林益勤等人提案第五條足增訂第二項第五款 事主應提供寵物符合其習性之適宜環境前述適宜環境依主管機關或經主管機關認可之機構團體所公告為準外及其以下款式依序調整"},{"start":2140.206,"end":2154.66,"text":"並增訂第三項依據前項各款自主於飼養管理動物前因審慎評估自身所能提供於與動物之條件是否符合及現行條文第三項改列至第四項外其余均同現行法條文委員羅廷輝等人提案第五條"},{"start":2155.2,"end":2176.921,"text":"除第2項第5款修正為以籠子飼養寵物者 其籠內空間應足供寵物充分伸展及轉生並應提供充分之籠外活動時間第7款修正為不得以汽車 機車 電動輔助 自行車及微型電動二輪車牽引寵物第10款修正為不得為寵物佩戴電擊橡圈第11款修正為提供其他符合動物習性之妥占"},{"start":2177.702,"end":2193.262,"text":"照顧原第11款改例為第12款 第三項修正為施主飼養之動物不得棄養但符合中央主管機關所定要件及程序者得送交動物收容處所或直轄市縣市主管機關指定之場所收容處理 增訂第4項依前項單數規定送交動物"},{"start":2196.225,"end":2207.707,"text":"衛福中央主管機關公告之要件及程序者視為棄養動物 增訂第5項第3項送交動物收容處所或指定場所之要件程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法 由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":2208.26,"end":2235.336,"text":"及增訂第6項 施養於第19條規定應辦理登記之寵物遺失時 應於遺失事實發生後5日內向直轄市縣市主管機關登記 吳政安理由為辦理登記 推定為棄養外 需均衡現行法條文 文憲運動等3項所提修正動議第5條 除第2項第7款修正為不得以汽車 機車 電動輔助 自行車及微型電動二輪車牽引寵物 增訂第10款不得為寵物佩戴電擊橡圈"},{"start":2236.437,"end":2262.204,"text":"原第11款至第10款至第11款改列為第11款至第12款及增進第4項施主欲提供飼養之動物殯葬服務中央主管機關應訂定定型化契約範本及其應記載及不得記載事項規範動物寵物殯葬服務業其所提供之商品或服務品質以保障施主權意外其精通現行法條文為料先詳等提案第5條除刪除現行法第3"},{"start":2264,"end":2286.261,"text":"縣刑法條文第三項外區金銅縣刑法條文文規警等人提案第五條除第五款修正為提供其他符合動物習性之妥善照顧刪除第六款至第十一款第三項修正為飼主飼養之動物不得棄養但符合中央主管機關鎖定要件程序者得交送動物收容處所或直轄市縣市主管機關指定之場所收容處理並增訂第四項"},{"start":2286.761,"end":2310.439,"text":"位於前項單書規定送交動物者視為棄養動物第五項施主施養這動物遺失時因遺失事實發生後五日內向直轄市縣市主管機關登記無正當理由不為辦理登記者視為棄養其第二項第三項送交動物收容處所或指定場所之要件程序其其他應遵循事項之規定而中央主管機關公告之外其余均同現行法條文"},{"start":2311.482,"end":2333.056,"text":"文陳定非等人提案第5條 除第2項第5款修正為以籠子飼養寵物者 其籠內空間因足弓寵物充分伸展及轉生並應安排適當活動第6款默劇修正為並應安排適當活動第7款修正為不得以動力交通工具牽引寵物 並增訂第12款不得為寵物佩戴電擊項圈外 其金銅線型法條文"},{"start":2333.536,"end":2348.896,"text":"委員書小蕙等人提案第五條除第二項第五款修正為以籠子或圈養設施飼養寵物者其籠內或設施空間依照寵物習性及身形足供寵物充分生長活動並提供充分之籠外或設施外活動"},{"start":2349.639,"end":2378.373,"text":"第七款修正為不得已動力交通工具牽引寵物並增進第四項飼主飼養之動物遺失者於知悉遺失時期72小時內為向遺失地警察機關直轄市縣市主管機關或動物收容處所重報者適合棄養外區金銅縣刑法條文為洪孟凱等人提案第五條同委員羅廷偉等人提案為吳清明等人提案第五條除第一項默劇修正為以其法定代理人兼務人或實際照顧之人為飼主外區金銅委員羅廷偉等人提案"},{"start":2379.333,"end":2406.006,"text":"委員賴銳雄等人提案第5條除第2項第10款修正為提供安全性寵物用品並給予妥善之照顧外區均等現行法條文台灣民眾黨黨團提案第5條除第2項第7款修正為不得以動力交通工具自行車與個人行動器具遷移動物外區均等現行法條文委員劉建國等人提案第6條任何人不得對動物有嚴重或重複之騷擾虐待或傷害等行為委員郭義行等人提案第6條任何人不得虐待或傷害動物"},{"start":2407.133,"end":2436.633,"text":"委員賴銳榮等人提案第6條之二除居中政業醫療保險4制及默劇修正委由中央主管機關會同相關目的事業主管機關定之外及金融現行法條文委員呂玉玲等人提案第10條除第3款修正委以直接間接賭博促銷遊戲宣傳娛樂或其他不當目的進行動物交換或證以外及金融現行法條文委員張志榮等16人提案第10條除第3款修正委以直接間接賭博娛樂遊戲宣傳或其他不當目不當目的進行動物交換或"},{"start":2437.213,"end":2454.392,"text":"正與外區均同現行法條文委員許曉欣等人提案第10條除第3款修正委直接間接賭博遊戲娛樂遊戲營業宣傳或其他不當目的進行動物交換或正與外區均同現行法條文委員郭益勤等人提案第10條除第1款手續修正委與賭博營業"},{"start":2456.906,"end":2483.176,"text":"娛樂營業宣傳為目的第二款刪除直接間接等文字第三款修正以賭博娛樂遊戲營業宣傳或其他不當目的進行動物交換或贈與但經中央主管機關公告之類型條件方式或場所者不在此限第四款劇中針列不當綑綁動物等文字第五款刪除手具與屠宰場內等文字針列第六款無正當理由放置或散布藥劑毒物或其他可能對動物造成傷害或危險物品"},{"start":2483.576,"end":2501.242,"text":"及原第六款改列為第七款外區均同現行法條文委員羅廷惠等人提案第十條同委員徐曉鑫等人提案委員岳元之等人提案第十條除第三款劇中陣列色性性遊戲等文之外區均同現行法條文委員蘇喬娜等人提案第十條除第五款與屠宰場內經濟動物等文"},{"start":2503.376,"end":2522.972,"text":"文字修正為對經濟利用之動物增訂第六款非經主管機關許可義無正當理由不得使用含有毒物金屬或其他易危害動物生命身體健康之食物或裝置餵食防範或驅趕動物及第六款改列為第七款外區金銅線刑法條文為林思敏等人提案第十條除第一款及第二款均三"},{"start":2524.333,"end":2538.73,"text":"經刪除劇中直接間接等文字第三款手續修正為與賭博娛樂營業宣傳或其他不當目的第四款劇中陣列不當管制或捆綁動物等文字第五款刪除手續與屠宰場內等文字"},{"start":2539.744,"end":2559.62,"text":"增列第六款無正當理由放置丟棄或散佈藥劑毒物或其他可能對動物造成傷害之危險物品及原第六款改列第七款外區域均衡現行法條文委員李坤誠等人提案第十條除第一款手續修正為以賭博娛樂營業宣傳為目的第二款刪除劇中直接間接等文字及第三款修正為以賭博娛樂遊戲"},{"start":2561.081,"end":2579.219,"text":"有营业宣传为目的进行动物交换或赠予但经中央主管机关公告之类型条件方式或场所者不在此线外区均同现行法条文文正天才等人提案第十条除第三款剧中争列娱乐游戏广告宣传等文字外区均同现行法条文文宏孟凯等人提案除第三款修正为"},{"start":2580.14,"end":2596.209,"text":"給中央主管機關公告之類型、條件、方式或場所進行動物交換或贈與第四款拍賣修正為銷售第五款修正為除醫療目的外對經濟動物予以灌水、灌食及捆綁增列第六款對經濟動物予以托育"},{"start":2597.465,"end":2617.399,"text":"拋頭或丟職 但對行動不便之經濟動物有異動之必要時使用適當輔助設備予以拖曳不在此限 增訂第7款經濟動物未經人道置婚予以割血及放血及第6款改列為第8款外區域均同現行法條文文許曉欣等人提案第12條除第1項第2款修正為"},{"start":2618.399,"end":2644.899,"text":"為科學應用目的並經實現動物照護及使用委員會或小組審議審查同意外區均衡現行法條文文讀聽會等人提案第12條除第1項第7款修正為收容於動物收容處所或直轄市縣市主管機關指定之場所經受醫師檢查有限的情形之一1 患有法定動物傳染病2 身體狀態已達無法自行進食飲水或排泄之程度3 嚴重影響動物或人員之健康安全及刪除"},{"start":2645.954,"end":2668.519,"text":"縣刑法第四項第五項外區均衡縣刑法條文台灣民眾黨黨門提案第十二條同委員徐巧欣等人提案委員蘇巧慧等人提案第十二條除第一項序文修正為宰殺動物以下類事項為縣外區均衡縣刑法條文委員洪孟凱等人委員陳廷輝等人提案第十二條均衡委員羅廷偉等人提案委員郭益勤等人提案第十二條除第一項"},{"start":2669.284,"end":2693.321,"text":"第7款居中增列該場所動物工作人員之健康或安全等文之外區均同現行法條文臺灣民眾黨黨法案提案第14條除第1項續文默劇修正為收容長期照顧及處理下列動物增訂第1項第5款需要安養長期照顧之動物及增列第6項第1項第5款所指需要安養長期照顧之動物及相關事項綜合主管機關定之外區均同現行法條文"},{"start":2694.537,"end":2709.743,"text":"文國疫情等人提案第十四項第十四條除第二項劇中者修正為且無正當理由者視為棄養甄列莫二句收容動物經收養經認養後原始主不得要求領回甄列第三項依前項規定准許領回認養之動物"},{"start":2710.563,"end":2723.556,"text":"不包括依第八條公告禁止飼養或輸入之動物到公告前以飼養或輸入並依第36條第一項辦理登記者準由原事主領為原第三項至第五項改列為第四項至第六項增訂第七項第一項動物收容處所或"},{"start":2728.683,"end":2751.012,"text":"指定場所 中央主管機關應定期進行查核與評鑑 並公佈評鑑結果外區金銅線性法條文文料先詳等人提案第14條 俗增訂第4項 中央主管機關應整合各直轄市縣市主管機關所屬警政 動保等相關機關辦理下列事項1提供24小時電話專線服務 2提供24小時協助緊急救援協助診療"},{"start":2753.054,"end":2759.282,"text":"驗傷財政及緊急安置舉言第四項及第五項改列為第五項至第二項外其餘精通現行法條文"},{"start":2760.646,"end":2784.333,"text":"委員羅廷惠等人提案第14條除第二項默契增加收容動物精正養後原始主不得要求領回等文字增訂第三項依前項規定通知後原始主無正當理由為一線領回者推定為棄養動物第四項依第二項規定准許領回被養之動物不得為第八條公告禁止飼養或輸入之動物但有效率情形之虞者不在此限依原始主為公告前以飼養或"},{"start":2785.593,"end":2802.266,"text":"輸入並依第36條第1項辦理登記者准許其領為2認養人完成直轄市縣市主管機關或其委託之個人機關或團體辦理之訓練並經評估具飼養能力者准許其認養原第3項改列為第5項並著作文字修正原第4項第5項改列為第6項及第7項"},{"start":2805.953,"end":2833.219,"text":"增訂第八項第一項動物收容處所或指定場所中央主管機關應定期進行評鑑並公佈評鑑結果外區均同現行法條文文書小二等人提案第十四條除第一項序文第二句起修正為與各該直轄市縣市規劃動物緊急救援業務及設置動物收容處所或委託民間機構團體辦理動物緊急救援業務或設置動物收容所或指定場所救援收容及處理消費動物及第四項修正為中央主管機關應訂定民間機構團體動物"},{"start":2835.84,"end":2844.256,"text":"收容處所設置標準及管理 獎勵辦法外基於金銅現行法條文委員洪孟楷等人 委員陳廷輝等人提案第14條"},{"start":2845.29,"end":2870.07,"text":"均同委員羅廷惠等人提案委員林黛化等人提案第十四條之一增訂第一項第七款含金屬材質之彈簧蓄壓式套索陷阱及原第七款改列為第八款外期均同現行法條文委員徐曉鑫等人提案第十四條之一除增訂第三項第一項第一款第二款第四款第六款第七款等規定事項狩獵與農牧管理外區均同委員林黛化等人提案委員李坤誠等人提案委員謝業孟等"},{"start":2870.971,"end":2885.732,"text":"三人所提修正同意第14條之一均同委員領導要等人提案委員領導要等人提案第14條之二非經中央主管機關許可任何人不得製造販賣陳列持有廣告教學或輸出入售假含金屬材質之"},{"start":2887.112,"end":2911.225,"text":"彈簧蓄壓式套索陷阱及提條零組件電擊項圈及其他經中央主管機關公告這物品廣告刊登者網際網路平台提供者及網際網路應用服務提供者應限制瀏覽或移除販賣前項物品之違法網頁資料委員多聽會等人提案第14條之二除末段修正為及其他經中央主管機關公告禁止使用於捕捉動物之物品外區均同現行法條文"},{"start":2911.755,"end":2928.066,"text":"委員 郭益勤等人提案第14條 適合廢監中央主管機關許可任何人不得製造販賣 陳列 持有或輸出入售甲及其他中央主管機關公告禁止使用捕捉動物之物品廣告刊登者 網際網路平台提供者及網際網路應用服務提供者應限制流覽或移除販賣前項物品之違法"},{"start":2931.144,"end":2957.103,"text":"違法網頁資料且保存相關資料並於主管機關要求提供時不得規避妨礙或拒絕前相應保存資料之內容範圍及期限而中央主管機關公告之委員謝業奉等三人所提修正同意第十四條之二除第二項第二具具所增加不得刊登或等文字及精通委員林大俄等人提案委員李坤誠等人提案第十四條之二非經中央主管機關許可任何人不得製造販賣陳列或輸出入售假含金屬材質之同"},{"start":2958.213,"end":2983.446,"text":"癱瘓 蓄壓式 套索 陷阱 電擊 向前及其他經中央主管機關公告之物品廣告刊登者 網際網路平台提供者及網際網路應用服務提供者 因限制瀏覽或依圖販賣前項物品之違法網頁資料委員洪孟凱等人 委員陳廷輝等人提案第14條之二 金同委員羅廷輝等人提案委員徐曉金等人提案第14條之二 非經中央主管機關許可 任何人不得製造販賣陳列或售出"},{"start":2983.911,"end":3013.116,"text":"輸出售假含金屬材質塵壓彈簧蓄壓式套索陷阱及其他經中央主管機關公告禁止使用捕捉動物之物品網路刊登者網路平台網際網路平台提供者及網際網路應用服務提供者應限制瀏覽或移除前販賣前項物品之違法網頁資料且保存相關資料並於主管機關要求提供時不得規避妨礙或拒絕前項應保存資料之內容範圍及其限要中央主管機關公告之"},{"start":3013.649,"end":3035.971,"text":"委員 李光誠等人提案 增訂第14條之3非營利為目的飼養犬貓 打中央主管機關指定之一定規模者 應向犬貓飼養所在地直轄市縣市主管機關申請非營利性犬貓飼養登記 經核准登記者發給非營利性犬貓飼養登記證前項申請非營利性犬貓飼養登記之條件程序 應檢附文件"},{"start":3036.391,"end":3061.312,"text":"期限與換證撤銷或廢止犬貓飼養照護登記事項變更及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央儲管機關定之本法中央民國某年某月某日修正施行前飼養犬貓達第一項規模以上者應自前項辦法施行自日期一年內向犬貓飼養所在地直轄市或縣市儲管機關申請登記藉其為申請或申請為獲核准者處新台幣5萬元以上25萬元以下罰還"},{"start":3062.984,"end":3083.2,"text":"並得公佈其姓名照片及違法事實或限期令其改善經限期令其改善藉其為改善者得按次處罰之穩定宣講等提案增訂第14條之三主管機關人員警察人員消防人員未免除動物生命之急迫危險對人民之土地建築物車輛及其他物品非進入使用損壞或限制其使用不能打警及"},{"start":3084.352,"end":3101.113,"text":"緊急救護及搶救之目的時得進入使用破壞或限制其使用人民依全向土地建築物車輛或其他物品之使用損壞或限制使用至其財產遭受特別犧牲之損失時得請求補償但應可歸則於市主之適有者不予補償有財產受損害者向市主求償"},{"start":3102.915,"end":3121.463,"text":"委託定位等人提案 增訂第14條之三 網際網路平台提供者或網際網路應用服務提供者 以下並稱為網路業者金屬網際官通知網頁設有下列情形之一者 應先行限制瀏覽移除違法網頁資料或採取其他必要之處置 依三不播放播送販賣或其他或以他法功能"},{"start":3122.023,"end":3138.444,"text":"观赏听闻违反第6条第10条或第12条第一项是文字图画声音影像电池记录或其他物品但未公学术研究或公用途者不在此限而违反前条规定售卖贩卖售假或其他经中央主管机关公告禁止使用捕捉动物质物品"},{"start":3139.125,"end":3163.331,"text":"三違反第22條第一項規定未經許可擅自經營特定寵物之繁殖買賣或寄養或擅自販賣特定寵物嫌障違法網頁資料與行為人之個人資料及網路使用記錄資料因此保留至少60日以提供主管機關調查違反第一項規定經本法規定處罰者主管機關應通知其限期改善藉其為改善者主管機關得通知網際網路接取服務者"},{"start":3164.071,"end":3191.526,"text":"服务提供者于技术可行下限制接取网络业者于主管机关要求提供第二项违法网页资料与行为人资个人资料及网路使用记录资料时不得规避妨碍或拒绝委员员之等人提案增订第十四条之三民间机构或团体自行设置动物收容处所者印象直辖是限制政府主管动物保护之单位申请核发设置许可并依许可内容设置前项"},{"start":3192.677,"end":3207.815,"text":"经前项申请许可之民间收容处所应受直辖市县市政府主管动物保护之单位定期查核其管理奖励补助与评检办法方法由各直辖市县市政府定之伟红孟海等人提案增订第十四条之三同委罗定恩等人提案"},{"start":3208.277,"end":3226.428,"text":"文規請等人提案增訂第十四條之三為提升收容動物福祉動物收容處場所之設置及營運因應下列規定辦理一收容場所類型一公立收容場所由地方主管機關設置及營運二民間團體機構或團體費營利目的設置犬貓收容場所"},{"start":3227.523,"end":3249.618,"text":"且飼養數量達中央主管機關公告規模以上者應向所在地直轄市縣市主管機關申請登記經核准後發給登記證並依核准內容設置與營運二 設施與管理標準中央主管機關應訂定收容場所設施人員配置 照護管理動物福利等最低基準並建立評鑑與公開資訊制度供捐助認養及志工參與參考"},{"start":3250.979,"end":3271.951,"text":"三 任務規範一 任務應具備動物照護與行為相關基礎知識並完成主管機關認可之交易訓練二 中央主管機關應訂定任用資格交易訓練定期評鑑工作倫理申訴及懲處等管理辦法三 地方主管機關應定期辦理在職訓練與心理支持並設置申訴及調查機制到任務員經查有虐待或不當對待動物情勢者應依法懲處"},{"start":3273.292,"end":3286.575,"text":"並不得再擔任照護工作是民間收容場所之輔導與管理依地方主管機關應建立登記查核與評鑑制度並限期輔導為登記者改善限期為改善者則限制收容量勒令停業或公告列管"},{"start":3287.728,"end":3305.584,"text":"二有虐待死亡率異常或其他重大違規情勢者應及時查處並依本法處罰三中央主管機關應於本條施行後一年內公告全國收容場所輔導期程地方主管機關應於公告後六個月內完成清查與出品提供必要協助輔導期間最長不得逾一年逾二年"},{"start":3306.952,"end":3328.904,"text":"5 支援支持與公司協力 依諸國機關應建置輔導平台 結合獸醫動保團體動物行為專家及志工支援辦理培訓與參與機制2 經評估合格之民間場所 得申請為示範場所優先獲得資源補助與媒合資源3 中央地方主管機關應優先支援偏鄉及資源不足地區 提供絕育疫苗飼料醫療等"},{"start":3329.444,"end":3358.493,"text":"支援並設置區域型中介中繼或輔介轉介中心委員徐曉欣等人提案第15條除第一項劇中修正為應優先非與動物之替代方法為之及第二項修正為實驗動物之造物及使用指引由中央主管機關定之外區域精通現行法條文委員郭益勤等人提案第15條除第一項劇中修正為應優先非與動物之替代方法為之外區域精通現行法條文委員徐曉欣等人提案增訂第15條之一除了科學證明或無其他替代方式且取得中央主管機關同意外"},{"start":3359.173,"end":3367.986,"text":"科學應用之動物不得源於野外捕捉除動物用藥臨床試驗目的外科學應用動物之繁殖買賣需求的中央主管機關許可"},{"start":3369.161,"end":3392.199,"text":"繁殖买卖科学应用动物之许可以三点为限届时需申请展言前项申请科学应用动物繁殖买卖许可应具备之条件设施程序期限展言换证撤销或废止许可之条件动物繁殖作业查核平建及其他应遵循事项的办法由中央主管机关定之文许晓鑫等提案第十六条第一项修正为动物科学应用机构应设置动物"},{"start":3393.279,"end":3411.771,"text":"實驗動物招募及使用委員會或小組並經主管機關許可 使得進行動物科學應用及原第二項改略第二項外區金銅線性碼條文委員許曉金等人提案增訂第16條之一進行動物科學應用者應事先向機構之實驗動物招募委員會或小組提出申請並經審查"},{"start":3413.152,"end":3439.607,"text":"核准使得进行经核可知内容变更时一同先动物照顾及使用委员会或小组于审核前项申请时应评估动物科学应用计划之预期成果效益及对动物之伤害第一项申请之内容至少应包含下列事项一计划名称二计划主持人三动物种类来源品种品性品系性别年龄及数量四计划之预期成果效益五一本法"},{"start":3440.444,"end":3448.85,"text":"第15条第一项规定所进行之替代减量及精致化之评估说明即无其他可达到相同目的成果或效益之非动物替代方法之证明"},{"start":3450.323,"end":3452.685,"text":"6.实验设计动物使用数量之合理性7."},{"start":3452.685,"end":3456.967,"text":"实验操作程序及实验造成动物痛苦程度之评估8."},{"start":3456.967,"end":3458.148,"text":"执行期限9."},{"start":3458.148,"end":3463.571,"text":"执行应用程序或操作人之动物科学应用相关学经历名册10."},{"start":3463.571,"end":3473.697,"text":"其他中央主管机关所公告的事项动物科学应用有违反本法规定者实验动物造物及使用委员会或小组的命令计划组织人停止科学应用之全部或部位内容"},{"start":3474.697,"end":3500.326,"text":"並限期最長於六個月內改善有下一類事項者實驗動物照護及使用委員會或小組則終止其科學應用一 違反第四項限期改善之要求二 科學應用計畫之執行違反動物保護或保育法令且情節重大三 科學應用計畫之執行違反其他法令情節重大且經行政機關或司法機關判決確定實驗動物照護及使用委員會或小組之組成任務及管理辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":3501.146,"end":3529.916,"text":"猿猴犬猫实验计划应由实验动物照护及使用委员或小组送入中央主管机关审查同意及审查程序成员运作及其他应遵循事项中央主管机关定之文区小青等人提案增订第16条之二科学应用机构应依中央主管机关指定格式保留5年内计划审查内部查核监督改善争议处理等文件备查中央主管机关应定其公开科学应用机构利用动物现况及外部查核记录及"},{"start":3530.656,"end":3556.061,"text":"實踐動物繁殖買賣業者生產供應淘汰資訊資訊收集公開應追尋事項中央主管機關公告之委員許曉欣等人提案增訂第16條之三中央主管機關應涉動物科學應用倫理與爭議事件處理小組或委員會受以全國科學應用機構違反本法相關規定之動物科學應用規定之爭議或檢舉事件中央主管機關應提供檢舉管道並對於檢舉人身份及檢舉內容確實保密"},{"start":3557.741,"end":3582.91,"text":"檢舉人之保護與免責準用證人保護法之規定動物科學應用倫理與爭議事件處理小組或委員會由中央主管機關鄰闢學者專家相關機關及另一支民間動物保護團體代表其中至少應含實驗動物獸醫師及民間動物保護團體代表各一人動物科學應用倫理與爭議事件處理小組或委員會之組成任務及管理之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":3584.332,"end":3611.155,"text":"委員許曉欣等人提案增訂第16條之事進行動物科學應用之機構應主動公佈法規要求及政府補助研究之動物實驗資訊包括實驗計畫計畫審查紀錄計畫審查通過後之監督紀錄等但其他法律有特別規定保密之必要者不在此限前項法規要求動物實驗或測試資訊動物科學應用之機構應每年定期公開第一項由政府補助進行之動物實驗之資訊應於研究成果發表後或研究計畫結束之日起3年內公佈"},{"start":3611.936,"end":3620.538,"text":"动物科学应用机构主动公开动物实验资讯应列入中央主管机关定期监督及管理事项应公开动物实验资讯由中央主管机关公告"},{"start":3621.806,"end":3642.253,"text":"文區小區等人提案第十七條 足第一項第二句修正為應立即由獸醫師檢視實驗動物之狀況及第二項句中修正為應經獸醫師評估之必要性及對動物累積之影響累積之疼痛程度外須以均衡現行法條文文區小區等人提案增訂第十七條之一動物科學應用機構應設置實驗動物獸醫師參與計劃審查計劃審查後之監督及動物之照顧與處置實驗動物獸醫師之教育養成"},{"start":3648.875,"end":3662.331,"text":"实习 训练 振造 执掌等由中央主管机关定制委员区小新等人提案第18条利用动物进行教育训练以高等教育或会提高专业知识技能之训练为限"},{"start":3662.867,"end":3680.393,"text":"高級中等以下學校及其他補習教育進修教育機構不得進行足以使動物受傷害或死亡之動物科學實驗委員羅廷惠等人提案第十八條促進修正委員或其他補習教育進修教育等機構外區盡同現行法條文委員洪孟凱等人提案第十八條同委員羅廷惠等人提案"},{"start":3681.65,"end":3699.214,"text":"委員許曉清等人提案增訂第18條之一高級中等以下學校參加科學展覽會競賽活動涉及動物科學應用時需經中央目的事業主管機關審查同意時得為之並遵守本法第15條第2項指引之規定委員李光誠等人提案增訂第19條之一中央主管機關得依動物寵物"},{"start":3699.814,"end":3715.243,"text":"物種之生物學特性及管理需求分類的寵物飼主飼養或販賣之寵物屬中央主管機關指定應申請許可或登記被查之物種應向直轄市縣市主管機關提出申請經許可或同意登記後使得為之第一項寵物分類前項飼主飼養或販賣寵物應具備之資格條件飼養"},{"start":3718.894,"end":3733.679,"text":"招募或販賣方式 市場設施應申報資訊 申請許可或登記被查之程序 期限與換證 撤銷或廢止許可或登記之條件及其其他應遵行事項之辦法 中央主管機關定之委員 郭益勤 等人提案"},{"start":3734.775,"end":3759.832,"text":"增订第19条之一 事主对其管理之宠物除因符合第二章动物之一般保护规定外并因一下列规定办理一 农族或圈养设施饰养动物者其农类或设施内空间因足供宠物充分伸展转生或活动并因依照动物习性及利用动物之方式农族或圈养设施之大小事实安排适当活动二 以神或恋圈"},{"start":3761.093,"end":3768.145,"text":"以神货链圈数动物者其神货链因常于动物身形且足够动物充分伸展"},{"start":3769.144,"end":3798.716,"text":"活動使用安全舒適透氣及保持適當鬆緊度之項圈並依照動物騎行及利用動物之方式安排適當活動三不得以動力交通工具牽引動物四不得為寵物佩戴電擊圈電擊項圈有發生危害之餘使應將動物移至安全處並給予逃生之機會六不得長時間將動物留置密閉空間內並應開啟對流孔洞供給呼吸七除決意外不得對動物施以非必要或不具醫療目的之手術委員會定位等人提案"},{"start":3799.256,"end":3821.341,"text":"增订第19条之一中央主管机关得以宠物物种之生物学特性饰养照顾需求及公共安全考量分类动物并采取分级管理措施前向分类方式及分级管理措施事主应具备之资格条件饰养照顾方式设施及其他应遵循事项的办法中央主管机关定之文宏孟凯等人文陈廷辉等人提案"},{"start":3821.792,"end":3850.863,"text":"增訂第19條之一 同委員羅廷偉等人提案委員林森敏等人提案第20條除第一項據中增列可進入之等文字第二項據所增列大型貨及據中增列可進入之等文之外 其余均同現行法條文委員陳廷偉等人提案第20條 除第一項修正為寵物出入公共場所或公共的出入之場所 嬰兒7歲以上之人伴同並使用戀神相容或採取其他居中主管機關公告之適當防護措施但符合下列規定之一則不在此限"},{"start":3852.028,"end":3875.133,"text":"以中央主管機關一物種管理需求公告之條件二直轄市會限制主管機關公告之區域或條件外區域均同現行法條文委員謝一鳳等三人所提修正同意第二十條第一項同委員陳廷輝等人提案第一項第二項同委員林志明等人提案第二項及第三項區中陣列大型或等文之外區域均同現行法條文委員羅廷輝等人提案第二十一條足第一項據所陣列依第十九條規定等文字"},{"start":3875.578,"end":3893.802,"text":"第二項默劇修正為依第十二條至第十四條規定處理第三項增列法定動物等文字並刪除第四項外區均衡現行法條文委員規定等人提案第二十一條除第二項修正為前項動物有身份標示者應儘速通知事主內行外區均衡現行法條文"},{"start":3894.246,"end":3911.724,"text":"委員陳廷輝等人提案第二十一條同委員羅廷輝等人提案委員廖先祥等人提案增訂第二十一條之一適足飼養之動物不得棄養但符合中央主管機關所定要件程序者得送交動物收容處所或直轄市縣市主管機關指定之場所收容處理未遇前項但書規定送交動物者視為棄養動物"},{"start":3912.925,"end":3930.841,"text":"市主飼養之動物遺失時因於遺失事實發生後5日內向直轄市縣市主管機關登記無爭端理由未辦理登記者視為棄養第三項送交動物收容處所或指定場所之要件程序及其難應遵行事項之規定由中央主管機關公告之委員落定會等人提案第22條"},{"start":3933.649,"end":3959.018,"text":"任何人不得贩卖中央主管机关指定种类之宠物以下简称特定宠物但申请经直辖市限制主管机关许可得经营特定宠物之繁殖买卖或寄养业并应于许可之营业场所内为之许可期间以三年为限前向特定宠物之种类繁殖场买卖或寄养业者应具备之条件设施专业人员配置申请许可之程序期限与换证撤销或废止许可之条件经营管理"},{"start":3959.522,"end":3985.576,"text":"繁殖及买卖业者应遵循之宠物登记管理繁殖买卖作业及其他应遵循事项之办法而中央主管机关定之第一项业者以外之事主应自特定宠物出生或取得后一定期限内为其结与但事主提出繁殖管理计划并申请经直辖市县市主管机关许可者得于许可期限内免结与其有繁殖需求应按次项直辖市县市主管机关提出申请并经许可而使得为之"},{"start":3986.977,"end":3990.181,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關的要求前向經許可免節一致"},{"start":3991.124,"end":4018.396,"text":"免绝育之事主提供宠物饰养现况及受转让事主资料第三项应为绝育之期限免绝育或繁殖需求之申请条件程序应减负文件许可期限撤销或废止许可之条件繁殖管理及其他应遵循事项办法由中央主管间定之本法中央民国某年某月某日修正事情前事主已申报免绝育之特定宠物无需依第三项规定申请免绝育但有繁殖需求者仍应依第三项规定办理"},{"start":4019.249,"end":4037.632,"text":"文依规定等人提案第22条经营宠物业者应自专任人员或专门技术人员全每年接受主管机关或经主管机关认可之机构团体所办理之在职教育训练经营中央主管机关指定宠物种类以下减轻特定宠物物质业者除应依下列规定办理外并依符合下列规定"},{"start":4039.349,"end":4053.852,"text":"一任何人不得販賣特定寵物但申請經直轄市縣市主管機關許可得經營特定寵物之繁殖買賣或寄養者寄養業二經營特定寵物之訓練或其他經中央主管機關指定之服務業者應向直轄市縣市主管機關申請並經"},{"start":4055.12,"end":4081.01,"text":"并经准以登记后使得经营第一项宠物业类别及业务内容专任人员或专门技术人员之资格条件职责前项特定宠物之种类业者应具备之设施条件人员配置申请许可或登记之程序期限与换证撤销或废止许可或登记之条件经营管理繁殖及买卖业者应遵循之宠物登记管理繁殖买卖作业及其他应遵循事项之办法由中央主管机关定之"},{"start":4082.349,"end":4111.423,"text":"地下专任人员或专门技术人员应接受之训练课程内容训练机构或团体之认可资格程序费值认可条件收费费额及其他应遵循事项遵循事项之办法中央主管机关定之委员洪凤凯等人委员陈廷飞等人提案第22条同委员罗定德罗定德等人提案委员徐晓欣等人提案第22条之二经特定宠物之繁殖或买卖业者其宠物应有合法输入之来源会有取得许可证之特定宠物繁殖或买卖业者供应之"},{"start":4112.776,"end":4142.259,"text":"特定宠物繁殖或买卖业者及特定宠物应于完成晶片植入并办理宠物登记后使得买卖或转让他人进行特定宠物买卖交易或转让应于特定宠物交付前先完成宠物变更登记并将登载宠物相关资讯之文件提供于购买者或收让者进行特定宠物繁殖买卖或寄养业者于电子平面电信网络及其他媒体进行广告行销宣传时应标示正确之许可证字号且不得将其许可证"},{"start":4142.719,"end":4168.469,"text":"租借他人使用 委員郭益勤等人提案第22條之二 同委員徐曉新等人提案委員羅廷惠等人提案第22條之二 第一項及第二項同委員徐曉新等人提案 第三項至第二項分別修正為特定寵物買賣交易或轉讓 應於特定寵物交付前先完成寵物變更登記並將登載寵物相關資訊之文件提供於購買者或收讓者特定寵物繁殖買賣或寄養者以下並稱特定寵物者"},{"start":4169.449,"end":4193.114,"text":"特定宠物业者于电子平面电信网络及其他媒体进行广告行销宣传使应标示其许可证字号非特定宠物业者不得甚至使用特定宠物业之许可证字号进行前线广告行销宣传特定宠物业者不得将其许可证提供或租借他人委员洪茉凯等人委员陈廷飞等人提案第22条之二军统委员罗定伟等人提案委员罗定伟"},{"start":4193.769,"end":4218.988,"text":"等人提案第二十二条之四除第一项增订第五款变质腐败或含有义务第二款其他经中央主管机关指定不得使用这物质第二项其中及修正为宇及增列其不得使用物之外其进通现行法条文文贵情等人提案第二十二条之四除增订第一项第五款还有经中央主管机关公告不得使用这物质及第三项宠物食品容器包装的下列情形之一者不得制造贩卖"},{"start":4220.239,"end":4228.509,"text":"输入输出或使用一有毒二医生不良化学作用三其他足以危害健康外其他需金融献金法条文"},{"start":4229.45,"end":4256.551,"text":"委員吳佩儀等人提案第二十二條之事增進第一項第五款變質或腐敗及第六款參委或假冒外區精通現行法條文委員洪孟凱等人委員陳廷輝等人提案第二十二條之事軍統委員羅廷維等人提案委員謝英峰等三人所提修正同意第二十二條之事除增進第一項第五款變質或腐敗第六款有毒或含有害寵物健康之物質或義務及第七款參委或假冒外區精通現行法條文"},{"start":4257.984,"end":4280.032,"text":"文國疫情等人提案第二十二條支五除第一項序文手機修正為寵物食品之容器外包裝或說明書第一項第三款修正為原料或添加物質名稱其為二種以上混合物質因依其含量多寡由高至低分別標示之含基因改造原料者因應標明第四款修正為營養標示第五款手機修正為製造廠商或國內負責廠商"},{"start":4281.172,"end":4308.115,"text":"第二項修正為前項第三款應標示之內容及方式第四款標示之應遵行事項由中央主管機關公告之及第三項修正為對於寵物食品所謂之標示宣傳或廣告不得有不實誇張或一身誤解之情形其不實誇張或一身誤解之認定基準宣傳或廣告之內容方式及其他應遵行事項之準則由中央主管機關定之外區域均衡現行法條文文林議員等人提案"},{"start":4309.349,"end":4336.557,"text":"增订第22条之六经营宠物业或中央主管机关指定宠物种类之业者与其营业场所应至专任人员或专门技术人员请每年接受主管机关或经主管机关认可之机构团体所办理之在籍教育训练请向专任人员或专门技术人员之资格条件职责及其应接受之训练课者内容训练团体或训练机构或团体之认可资格程序废止认可条件收费额及其他应遵循事项的办法由中央主管机关定之"},{"start":4337.037,"end":4362.539,"text":"委員國疫情等人提案增訂第22條之六是主因自寵物出生或取得後一定期限內成為未寵物絕育但有下列情形之一者依下列各款規定辦理依第25條規定經許可或同意登記販賣寵物會第32條規定經許可之特定寵物繁殖或買賣業者得免絕育二 向直轄市縣市主管機關申報並提出繁殖管理說明者"},{"start":4362.919,"end":4387.069,"text":"得以一定期限内免绝育 如有繁殖需求亦应申报前项宠物种类及因为绝育之期限由综合主管机关定之公告之持较市县市主管机关得要求第一项第二款申报事主提供宠物饲养现况及受转让事主资料第一项第二款免绝育与繁殖需求申报之程序限制期限及其难以遵循事项办法由综合主管机关定之"},{"start":4387.729,"end":4411.747,"text":"委书小二等人提案增订第22条之六经营动物贩卖之业者应向购买动物之类依动物之种类及习性就适当之饲养或管理方法图为说明其他说明应使购买者能理解之方法为之第一项业者应使动物购买者得实际见到动物之现状并以书面电子记录等方式提供该动物之饲养或管理方法出生日期生理及心理状况繁殖来源等其他必要情报"},{"start":4413.223,"end":4442.059,"text":"委員李坤誠等人提案 增訂第22條資料廣告刊登者 網際網路平台提供者及網際網路應用服務提供者之需或經主管機關通知網頁設有違反本法規定者應限制瀏覽或移除違法網頁資料且保存相關資料至少60日並於主管機關要求提供時不得規避 妨礙或拒絕網際網路接取服務提供者於技術可行下應依主管機關通知限制接取違法之網頁資料或其他必要之處置"},{"start":4443.646,"end":4470.988,"text":"第一項相關資料至少應包括廣告刊登者之姓名或名稱國民身份證統一編號公司3號法人或團體之設立登記文件號碼居住居所或事務所營業所電話及網路使用紀錄委員李坤誠等人提案增訂第22條之七會管理寵物食品之衛生安全維護寵物之生命及健康寵物食品安全管理管理法令與法律定制"},{"start":4472.345,"end":4494.238,"text":"委員劉建國提案第二三條除第一項同現行法條文外第二項至第八項分別修正為為避免動物遭虐待或傷害直轄市縣市主管機關得派相關專業人員出入動物比賽宰殺繁殖買賣寄養展園或其他營業場所訓練動物科學應用場所或動物所在之為避免動物遭虐待或傷害"},{"start":4496.291,"end":4523.463,"text":"公司場所採取必要之強制措施 稽查取締違反本法規定之有關事項 前項之稽查及取締直轄市縣市主管機關得委任委託或委辦其他機關構法人團體或個人辦理相關專業人員於執行職務使應出示有關執行職務之證明文件或顯示逐字辨別標誌必要時得請警察人員協助對第二項稽查取締及時強制措施或依前項所謂檢視或要求提供"},{"start":4523.983,"end":4546.498,"text":"資料不得規避妨礙或拒絕動物保護檢查員或相關專業人員執行職務使應出示有關執行職務之證明文件或顯示足之辨別之標誌必要時得請警察人員協助實際上是縣市政府警察局協助相關職業人員專業人員執行本法有關動物保護工作應經相關專業訓練為其本法之有向實施主管機關應逐年編列預算推動遊蕩權"},{"start":4548.444,"end":4567.692,"text":"除群控制、多元創新性認領群工作群、校園群計劃及確保收容管理品質等動物保護有關工作。主管機關對違反本法刑事規定的行為得為告註。為紅包牌等提案第二三條之下,是縣市主管機關應設置應職動物保護檢查員專職動物保護檢查工作並得徵選義務動物保護員協助之。"},{"start":4572.666,"end":4596.332,"text":"動物保護檢查員得進入動物比賽宰殺繁殖買賣寄養展演及其他營業場所訓練動物科學應用場所稽查取締違反本法規定之有關事項直轄市縣市主管機關發現或受理違反第五條第二項或第六條規定今年辦令任有必要者得指派動物保護檢查員進入動物所在之公司場所進行稽查取締"},{"start":4598.596,"end":4625.052,"text":"執行第二項稽查及取締之人員於執行職務時得請相關人員提供動物以供檢視或提供動物相關資料對第二項第三項稽查取締或依前項所為檢視或要求提供資料事主所在場所所在所有人使用人或管理人不得規避妨礙或拒絕原第四項改列為第六項並著作文字修正原第五項改列為第七項手續修正為第四項人員於執行職務時原第六項一列第八項"},{"start":4626.212,"end":4653.66,"text":"著作文字修正 原第7項改列為第9項具中流浪犬修正為流浪犬區域均同現行法條文台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二三條第一項同現行法條文第二項修正為池霞市縣市主管機關得出入動物比賽宰殺繁殖買賣寄養展演及其他營業場所訓練動物科學應用及其他動物所在之公司場所稽查取締違反本法規定之有關事項原第4項改列為第3項著作文字修正第4項至第6項為"},{"start":4656.365,"end":4677.103,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關進行第二項之稽查或取締為阻止對動物犯罪危害之發生或避免急迫危險任有及時處置之必要時的指派動物保護檢查員採取下列及時強制措施之一一對動物或物質扣留處置或限制其使用二其他依法定職權所為之必要處置執行稽查取締或及時"},{"start":4678.337,"end":4702.587,"text":"強制措施之人員於執行職務時得請相關人員相關之人提供動物以供檢視或提供動物相關資料對第二項稽查取締第四項即時強制措施或依前項所謂檢視或要求提供資料不得規避妨礙或拒絕原第五項及第二項改六第七項及第八項並著作文字修正原第七項改六第九項並將劇中流浪犬修正為流浪犬"},{"start":4703.547,"end":4721.276,"text":"委員羅廷輝等人委員陳廷輝等人提案第二三條同委員洪孟靜童委員洪孟凱等人提案委員郭玉琴等人提案第二三條第一項同現行法條文第二項前項動物保護檢察員執行犯罪調查犯罪調查職務時視同刑事訴訟法第229條是司法檢察官"},{"start":4722.879,"end":4747.683,"text":"應需經司法警察專長訓練 使得服刑執法 其訓練機構課程 退訓 考核證書及其他相關事項辦法 農業部 營運政部 警政署定資動物保護檢查員 得出入動物比賽 宰殺 繁殖 買賣 寄養 展演及其他營業場所訓練動物科學應用場所 稽查 取締違反本法規定就有關事項動物保護檢查員 為避免動物遭虐待或傷害 得進入動物"},{"start":4748.789,"end":4761.443,"text":"所在处所采取必要之强制措施原第三项之第七项改例为第四项之第八项增订第九项主管机关对违反本法刑事规定之行为得为告诉"},{"start":4762.711,"end":4786.04,"text":"委員羅志強等16人提案第二三條除第五項默劇修正委得請動物保護警動物保護警察協助及第六項修正委直轄市縣市政府警察局應設置專任動物保護警察偵查動物保護相關犯罪及協助動物保護檢查員執行其他本法有關動物保護之工作相關設置執行與訓練辦法內政部會同農會部定之外區域均衡縣刑法條文"},{"start":4787.165,"end":4810.376,"text":"委員羅廷維等人提案第二三條之二寵物食品經檢查或檢驗確認含有異物含有或超過第一第二四二十二條之四第二項所定標準中有關病原為生物不得使用物質種類或有害寵物健康物質安全容許量者直轄市縣市主管機關應通知寵物食品業者限期回收銷毀或為其他適當之處置"},{"start":4812.037,"end":4830.924,"text":"委員胡孟凱等人委員陳廷飛等人提案第二十三條之二均同委員羅廷維等人提案委員羅廷維等人提案第二十三條之三直轄市縣市主管機關為阻止對於動物危害之發生或避免急迫危險任由及時處置之必要時得採取下列措施"},{"start":4832.165,"end":4853.64,"text":"一對於動物獲物得予以扣留使用處置或限制其使用二對於動物之生命身體健康有迫切之危害非進入不能救護者得進入第二三條第二項及第三項所定之場所三其他依法定職權所為之必要處置對於前項措施措施相對人事主"},{"start":4854.74,"end":4881.46,"text":"場所所有人使用人或管理人不得規避妨害或拒絕直轄市縣市主管機關執行第一項措施時準用第二三條第七項規定直轄市縣市主管機關執行第一項措施時措施相對人或利害關係人任有侵害其利益之情事得當場陳述理由表示其意義經直轄市縣市主管機關任有理由者"},{"start":4882.361,"end":4895.253,"text":"因立即停止或更正執行採取之措施認為無理由者得繼續執行經措施相對人或利害關係人請求時應將異議之理由製作記錄交付之"},{"start":4896.57,"end":4913.619,"text":"人民因直轄市縣市主管機關依法實施第一項之措施致其生命身體或財產遭受特別損失時得請求補償但應可歸則於該人民之室友者不在此縣前項損失補償應以金錢為之並以補償"},{"start":4915.9,"end":4937.777,"text":"实际所受之特别损失为限对于直辖市县市主管机关所为损失补偿之决定不符者得依法提起诉议及行政诉讼损失补偿应于只有损失后二年内向执行机关请求之但自损失发生后经过五年者不得为之委员郭玉琴等人提案"},{"start":4939.056,"end":4966.326,"text":"第二三條之三 動物保護主管機關與警察及其他相關機關應密切協調聯繫 關於協助執行事項 並通知有關主管機關會同處理 前項協調聯繫辦法由農業部會同有關機關定之 委員洪孟凱等人 委員陳婷菲等人提案第二三條之三 軍統委員羅廷維等人提案委員許曉新等人提案第二四條刪除"},{"start":4967.486,"end":4977.886,"text":"委員羅廷維等人提案第二四條直轄市或縣市主管機關對於違反下列情勢之一之機構學校應先通知限期改善或為必要之處置"},{"start":4978.888,"end":4998.866,"text":"一违反第十五条第一项第十七条或第十八条规定二违反第十六条第三项锁定办法有关实验动物照护及使用委员会或小组之任务或管理之规定委员洪梦凯等人委员陈婷飞等人提案第二四条军统委员罗廷伟等人提案委员林一锦等人提案"},{"start":4999.827,"end":5020.175,"text":"第25條增訂第二項經直轄市縣市衛生主管機關或法院評估認定本法所指行為人有接受輔導諮商或心理治療之必要者直轄市縣市衛生主管機關應提供相關資源予以協助其餘同縣刑條文委員呂玉玲等人提案"},{"start":5020.775,"end":5043.402,"text":"第25條 續文刑罰及罰金修正為處3年以下有期徒刑或拘役並科新台幣50萬元以上200萬元以下罰金其餘同線型條文委員李昆城等人提案第25條第一項續文刑責及罰金修正為處6月以上5年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣20萬元以上500萬元以下罰金"},{"start":5044.082,"end":5070.278,"text":"第一項莫具增加或死亡等字其餘同現行條文第一項第二項及第三項使用藥物槍械犯前項各款之罪致複數動物死亡情節重大者加重其刑至二分之一前二項之行為人所飼養之動物直轄市縣市主管機關得沒入之經緩起訴或有罪判決確定者主管機關並得公布其姓名照片及違法事實"},{"start":5071.857,"end":5099.851,"text":"委員廖先祥等人提案第二十五條有下列情勢之一者處二年以下有期徒刑或拘役並科興臺幣二十萬元以上二百萬元以下罰金依違反第五條第二項第一款至第十款規定未達動物受傷狀況經限期令其改善藉其能為改善二違反第六條騷擾虐待傷害動物不聽勸阻三過失傷害或使動物遭受傷害致動物肢體嚴重殘缺重要器官"},{"start":5101.007,"end":5129.601,"text":"功能喪失或死亡有下列刑事之一者處六月六個月以上三年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣二十萬元以上二百萬元以下罰金一傷害動物二過失致複數動物重傷或死亡情節重大者三違反第一項之罪而於五年內再犯四違反第十二條第二項或第三項第一款規定宰殺宰殺犬貓或金裝主管機關公告禁止宰殺之動物"},{"start":5131.021,"end":5152.311,"text":"委員羅廷維等人提案第二十五條 罰則修正為處六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣三十萬元以上三百萬元以下罰金第一款第二句修正為宰殺故意傷害動物或使動物遭受傷害取同現行條文委員洪孟海等人提案第二十五條同委員羅廷維等人提案"},{"start":5153.479,"end":5182.695,"text":"委員楊瓊英等人提案第二十五條罰則修正為處三年以下有期徒刑或拘役並科新台幣三十萬元以上三百萬元以下罰金第一款墨具修正為致動物肢體或器官功能損傷其餘通線型條文委員陳廷飛等人提案第二十五條罰則修正為處一年以上五年以下有期徒刑或拘役並科新台幣五十萬元以上三百萬元以下罰金第一款墨具增加或死亡等文字"},{"start":5183.348,"end":5210.48,"text":"其餘同線型條文 委員葉元之等人提案第二十五條 罰則修正為除五年以下有期徒刑或拘役並科新台幣五十萬元以上二百萬元以下罰金 第一款默劇後增加或對動物施以凌虐致死等文字 增訂第二項違反前項第一款規定 經有罪判決執行完畢後 五年內再犯第一項第一款規定者加重其刑二分之一"},{"start":5211.178,"end":5232.105,"text":"其餘同現行條文委員蘇巧慧等人提案第25條有下列情勢之一者處一年以下有期徒刑或拘役並科新臺幣20萬元以下罰金一虐待動物不聽勸阻二過失致複數動物重傷或死亡情節重大者有下列情勢之一者處六個月以上三年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":5232.745,"end":5250.84,"text":"并科新台币20万元以上200万元以下罚金1.伤害动物2.使动物遭受伤害3.违反第一项之罪而于5年内再犯4.违反第12条第二项或第三项第一款规定宰杀犬猫或经中央主管机关公告禁止宰杀之动物"},{"start":5252.202,"end":5276.043,"text":"重傷或殺害動物或使動物遭受傷害致重傷或死亡處一年上七年下有期徒刑並科新台幣三十萬元以上五百萬元以下罰金輸入未經檢疫動物致動物被銷毀一同犯第二項與第三項之罪而傷害或殺害複數動物加重其刑至二分之一第二項和第三項之未遂犯罰之"},{"start":5277.344,"end":5304.506,"text":"委員張宏祿等人提案第25條罰則修正為除5年以下有期徒刑或拘役並科新台幣50萬元以上500萬元以下罰金其餘同現行條文第1項前項情形使用藥物槍械致富庶動物死亡情節重大者加重其刑二分之一有前二項情形之一者之狹是縣市主管機關德目錄行為人所飼養之動物經有罪判決確定者主管機關德"},{"start":5305.649,"end":5330.601,"text":"公布其姓名照片及違法事實委員吳清明等人提案第25條罰則修正為處6月以上5年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣30萬元以上300萬元以下罰金其餘同線型條文委員郭玉琴等人提案第25條罰則修正為處3年以下有期徒刑或拘役並科新台幣30萬元以上300萬元以下罰金其餘同線型條文"},{"start":5332.219,"end":5360.804,"text":"委員吳佩儀等16人提案第25條發責修正為處7年以下有期徒刑或拘役並科新台幣20萬元以上200萬元以下罰金其餘同現行條文委員林思敏等人提案第25條發責修正為處6個月以上5年以下有期徒刑或拘役並科新台幣50萬元以上300萬元以下罰金第一款墓具修正為致動物肢體損傷器官功能喪屍或死亡其餘同現行條文委員呂玉琳"},{"start":5361.636,"end":5363.559,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":5376.007,"end":5400.022,"text":"委員楊瓊英等人提案第25條之一第一項第二具修正為使用藥物槍械暴力或施以其他凌虐方式其餘同線型條文委員廖先祥等人提案第25條之一重傷或傷害動物或使動物遭受傷害致重傷或死亡處一年以上五年以下有期徒刑並科欺台幣五十萬元以上五百萬元以下罰金"},{"start":5400.783,"end":5414.263,"text":"输入未经检疫动物至动物被销毁一同犯前条与本条之罪而伤害或杀害复述动物加重其刑至二分之一主管机关得公布其姓名照片及违法事实"},{"start":5415.526,"end":5445.187,"text":"第一項之未遂犯罰之委員羅廷維等人提案第25條之一使用藥物槍械暴力或施以其他凝略方式犯前條各款之罪致複數動物死亡情節重大者加重其刑至二分之一有前條或前項之情形之一者經評估任有施以治療輔導之必要者得命其接受身心治療或輔導教育且經判決判刑確定者主管機關得公"},{"start":5446.068,"end":5471.781,"text":"其姓名照片及違法事實前項評估治療及輔導辦法由中央主管機關會商相關機關定之委員洪孟凱等人提案第25條之一同委員羅廷維等人提案委員游浩等人提案第25條之一第二項後段增加情節重大之累犯經評估任有施以治療輔導之必要者得命其接受身心治療或輔導教育等文字"},{"start":5472.813,"end":5492.466,"text":"第三項 前項治療輔導辦法由中央主管機關會同相關機關定制委員林思明等人提案第25條之一除第一項罰金修正為併科新台幣100萬元以上500萬元以下罰金其餘同委員呂玉玲等人提案委員吳齊明等人提案"},{"start":5493.789,"end":5504.749,"text":"第25條之一使用藥物槍械暴力或施以其他凝略方式犯前條各款之罪致複數動物死亡情節重大者加重其刑至二分之一"},{"start":5505.546,"end":5533.978,"text":"有前條或前項情形之一 經有罪判決確定者 主管機關得公布其姓名照片及違法事實委員郭育晴等人提案第25條之一違反第5條第2項第6條第12條第1項第2項第3項第1款規定致複數動物死亡情節重大者處1年以上5年以下有期徒刑並科新臺幣50萬元以上500萬元以下罰金有下列情形之一者加重其刑至二分之一"},{"start":5535.424,"end":5559.754,"text":"一 以凌虐或其他殘忍手法為之 二 對多數動物或特定種類動物為之 三 以幫派集團或其他組織性犯罪方式為之 四 利用網路傳播媒體或其他公開方式散佈或展示為之有前條或前二項情形之一者 主管機關得公佈其姓名照片及違法事實委員陳亭飛等人提案第25條之一"},{"start":5561.094,"end":5588.003,"text":"使用药物枪械暴力或施以其他凌虐方式犯前条各款之罪致复述动物死亡情节重大者加重其刑至二分之一有前条或前项情形之一经有罪判决确定者主管机关得公布其姓名照片及违法事实台湾民众党党员提案第25条之二处罚还修正为处心台币100万元以上300万元以下罚还其余同性行条文"},{"start":5588.752,"end":5614.558,"text":"委員郭玉琴等人提案第25條之二 處罰還修正委處新臺幣50萬元以上300萬元以下罰還其餘同現行條文委員羅廷維等人提案第25條之二違反第22條第一項規定未經直轄市或縣市主管機關許可擅自經營特定寵物之繁殖買賣或寄養者依下列規定處罰並命其停止營業拒不停止營業者按次處罰之"},{"start":5616.559,"end":5638.605,"text":"1 擅自經營特定寵物繁殖或買賣者處新臺幣30萬元以上300萬元以下罰還2 擅自經營特定寵物寄養者處新臺幣5萬元以上25萬元以下罰還前項特定寵物繁殖或買賣場所內之特定寵物不問屬於何人所有直轄市縣市主管機關得目錄之"},{"start":5639.997,"end":5667.928,"text":"委員侯孟楷等人提案第25條之二同委員羅廷維等人提案委員葉元智等人提案第25條之二同台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員邱若驊等人提案第25條之二第一項目據修正為得連續處罰至遵行為止其餘同現行條文委員吳祁銘等人委員陳廷飛等人提案第25條之二同委員羅廷維等人提案委員羅廷維等人提案第25條之三"},{"start":5669.562,"end":5693.654,"text":"事主違反第五條第三項第四項第六項第十四條第三項規定棄養動物者儲新臺幣十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還委員陳廷飛等人提案第25條之三處罰還修正委儲新臺幣二十萬元以上二百萬元以下罰還其餘同委員羅廷維等人提案臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第25條之三經議第25條第25條之一"},{"start":5697.659,"end":5700.98,"text":"委员和孟凯等人委员吴其明等人"},{"start":5725.475,"end":5746.221,"text":"提案第二十五条之三同委员罗廷伟等人提案委员罗廷伟等人提案第二十六条有下列情形之一者处新台币五万元以上二十五万元以下罚还依违反第八条规定饲养输出或输入经中央主管机关指定公告禁止饲养输出或输入之动物"},{"start":5747.54,"end":5762.388,"text":"二違反第22條第一項規定未經許可擅自販賣特定寵物 前項第二款供販賣之特定寵物不問屬於何人所有 直轄市縣市主管機關得目錄之委員廖先祥等人提案第26條"},{"start":5763.479,"end":5786.047,"text":"有下列情形之一者處新臺幣5萬元以上25萬元以下罰還依違反第五條第二項第一款至第十款各款之一或第六條規定故意傷害或使動物遭受傷害而未達動物肢體嚴重殘缺重要器官功能喪屍或死亡或過失傷害或使動物遭受傷害至動物"},{"start":5786.847,"end":5815.449,"text":"肢体严重残缺中药器官功能丧失或死亡二违反第五条第二项第十一款规定宠物除绝育目的外给予非必要或不具医疗目的之手术行为三违反第六条第一第六条之一第一项规定以动物进行展演四违反第八条规定饲养输出或输入经中央主管机关指定公告禁止饲养输出或输入之动物"},{"start":5816.021,"end":5836.444,"text":"五 違反第十一條第一項規定對於受傷或離病動物 四 為給予必要之醫療經營直轄市或縣市主管機關通知限期改善 借期未改善六 違反第二三條第三項規定 規避妨礙或拒絕動物保護檢查員依法執行職務七 違反第二三條之一第四項規定"},{"start":5837.666,"end":5862.115,"text":"規避妨礙或拒絕檢查人員之檢查或抽樣檢驗前項第三款所設動物不問屬於何人所有之下是縣市主管機關的目錄之委員洪孟凱等人委員陳廷輝等人提案第26條同委員羅廷輝等人提案委員徐曉新等人提案第二七條第四款修正違違反第十條第三款規定"},{"start":5862.662,"end":5868.895,"text":"以直接間接賭博 娛樂 遊戲 營業 宣傳或其他不當目的進行動物交換證"},{"start":5871.038,"end":5899.662,"text":"正訂第六款違反第十二條第一項第二款規定未經實驗動物照護及使用委員會或小組審查同意以動物進行科學應用現行第六款一列第七款發第十五條之一第二項第三項未經主管機關許可凡值買賣中央主管機關指定之實驗動物九違反第十六條之一第七項未經中央主管機關同意使用猿猴犬貓進行科學應用"},{"start":5901.463,"end":5916.49,"text":"10違反第18條第二項高級中等以下學校及其他補習教育進修教育等機構進行使動物受傷害或死亡之動物科學應用11違反第18條之一規定參加科學展覽會競賽活動"},{"start":5919.051,"end":5942.857,"text":"未經中央目的事業主管機關同意使用動物動物受傷害或死亡現行條文第8至第10款一列第12至第14款其餘同現行條文委員林思明等人提案第二期條序文罰則修正為處心臺幣10萬元以上50萬元以下罰還第4款修正為違反第10條第"},{"start":5944.19,"end":5969.279,"text":"三款規定 以賭博 娛樂 營業 宣傳或其他不當目的有虐待動物之情勢或進行動物交換與贈與其餘同線型條文 臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第二十七條 增訂第六款違反第十二條第一項第二款規定 未經實驗動物照護及使用委員會或小組審查同意 以動物進行科學應用 第七款以下款次調整其餘同線型條文"},{"start":5969.98,"end":5997.835,"text":"委員郭玉琴等人提案第二七條第三款修正違違反第十條第二款規定以賭博娛樂遊戲營業宣傳為目的利用動物進行禁忌其餘同線型條文委員蘇巧慧等人提案第二七條第五款修正違違反第十條第六款規定未經主管機關許可利用有害動物之食物或裝置餵食防範或驅趕動物第六款修正違違反第十條第七款規定"},{"start":5998.522,"end":6009.12,"text":"其他有害社會善良風俗之利用動物行為現行條文第六款至第十款已列第七款至第十一款其餘同現行條文"},{"start":6009.795,"end":6029.302,"text":"委員羅廷偉等人提案第二七條第一項序文第三句修正為並得公佈其姓名或名稱照片及違法事實第一款修正為違反第六條之一第一項規定以動物進行展演現行條文第一至第六款一列第二至第七款八違反第二十二條第三項規定"},{"start":6031.065,"end":6054.506,"text":"未為特定寵物絕育 且未向直轄市縣市主管機關申請免絕育 經限期改善藉其能為依第22條第三項規定辦理9 違反第22條第三項規定 未經許可擅自繁殖特定寵物 使違反中央主管機關依第22條第5項鎖定辦法中有關繁殖管理及其他應遵行事項之規定"},{"start":6055.825,"end":6070.474,"text":"十一違反第22條之四第一項規定製造加工分裝批發販賣輸入輸出贈予或意圖販賣而公開陳列有同項第一款第二款或第二款情形之一之寵物食品"},{"start":6077.344,"end":6102.675,"text":"十二違反第23條之二規定位於直轄市或縣市主管機關所定期限內回收銷毀或為其他適當處置前項第一款所設動物不問屬於何人所有直轄市或縣市主管機關得目錄之違反第一項第八款或第九款規定而受處分者直轄市縣市主管機關應通之次主限其為特定寵物絕育藉其為辦理絕育者"},{"start":6103.355,"end":6129.686,"text":"儲新臺幣5萬元以上25萬元以下罰款並得按次處罰之委員陳廷飛等人提案第二七條同委員羅廷維等人提案委員洪孟凱等人提案第二七條第一項續文是第五款同委員羅廷維等人提案六違反第十條第四項規定與運輸拍賣細流等過程中使用暴力不當電擊等方式驅趕動物或以傷害性方式標記七違反第十條第五款規定"},{"start":6130.259,"end":6133.483,"text":"除醫療目的外 對經濟動物與灌水 灌食及綑綁"},{"start":6134.881,"end":6161.611,"text":"八違反第十條第六款規定對經濟動物予以拋頭或丟職或未使用適當輔助設備拖曳經濟動物九違反第十條第七款規定經濟動物未經人道制婚予以切割或急放血十違反第十條第八款規定其他有害社會善良風俗之利用動物行為十一違反第十二條第三項規定販賣購買食用或持有犬貓之土體內臟"},{"start":6163.004,"end":6192.26,"text":"或含有其成分之食品或販賣經中央主管機關公告禁止宰殺動物之土體十二違反第十八條高級中等以下學校及其他補習教育進修教育等機構進行使動物受傷害或死亡之動物科學應用十三違反第二十二條第三項規定未為特定寵物絕育且未向直轄市縣市主管機關申請免絕育經限期改善藉其能為依第二十二條第三項規定辦理"},{"start":6194.437,"end":6223.057,"text":"十四违反第22条第三项规定未经许可擅自繁殖特定宠物十五违反中央主管机关一第22条第五项锁定办法中有关繁殖管理及其他应遵行四项之规定十六违反第22条之四第一项规定制造加工分装批发贩卖输入输出赠予或意图贩卖而公开陈列有同项第一款第二款或第六款情形之一之宠物食品"},{"start":6223.587,"end":6245.396,"text":"十七違反第二三條之二規定位於直轄市縣市主管機關鎖定其縣內回收銷毀或為其他適當處置第二項同委員羅廷維等人提案第三項著作款次修正其餘同委員羅廷維等人提案委員徐曉新等人第二提案第二七條之一增訂第二項"},{"start":6246.673,"end":6274.143,"text":"前項所涉及之文字圖畫聲音影像電磁記錄或其他物品網路內容防護機構主管機關應要求刊登者網際網路平臺提供者及網際網路應用服務提供者限制瀏覽或移除違法內容且保存相關資料並於主管機關要求時提供規避妨礙或拒絕配合者處限臺幣三萬元以上數萬元以下罰款並得限期"},{"start":6275.183,"end":6291.898,"text":"令其改善 借其為改善者的案次處罰之其餘同現行條文 臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第二七條之一 同委員徐巧欣等人提案 委員郭育晴等人提案第二七條之一 第二項第二句 聚首刪除網路內容防護機構等字 其餘同委員"},{"start":6292.597,"end":6314.328,"text":"許曉欣等人提案 委員許曉欣等人提案第二十八條有下列情勢之一者處心臺幣五萬元以上二十五萬元以下罰款被指其許可並得公布其姓名名稱照片及違法事實依特定寵物繁殖業者違反中央主管機關一第二十二條第二項鎖定辦法中有關寵物繁殖作業之規定"},{"start":6315.598,"end":6341.464,"text":"二 特定寵物繁殖或買賣業者違反第22條之二第一項規定 其特定寵物來源為非法輸入之來源或由未取得許可證之特定寵物繁殖場或買賣業者供應之三 特定寵物繁殖或買賣業者違反第22條之二第二項規定 未完成晶片植入或未辦理寵物登記及進行買賣或轉讓他人"},{"start":6343.456,"end":6352.464,"text":"四 特定寵物繁殖買賣或寄養業者違反第二條之二 第四項規定將其許可證租借他人使用"},{"start":6354.025,"end":6376.881,"text":"委員羅廷維等人提案第十八條有下列刑事之一者處信臺幣四萬元以上二十萬元以下罰還及廢止其許可並得公佈其姓名或名稱照片及違法事實一特定寵物繁殖業者違反中央主管機關一第二十二條第二項鎖定辦法中有關寵物繁殖作業之規定二特定寵物繁殖或買賣業者"},{"start":6378.622,"end":6399.874,"text":"違反第22條之二第一項規定其特定寵物未有合法輸入之來源或未由或由未取得許可證至特定寵物繁殖場或買賣業者供應之三特定寵物繁殖或買賣業者違反第22條之二第二項規定未完成晶片植入或未辦理寵物登記機進行買賣或轉讓他人"},{"start":6402.695,"end":6426.319,"text":"特定宠物业者违反第二色条之二第六项规定将许可证提供或租借他人使用特定宠物业者违反中央主管机关一第二色条第二项锁定办法中有关业者应具备之条件设施专任人员人员配置经营管理繁殖或买卖业者应遵循之宠物登记管理或买卖作业之规定"},{"start":6427.098,"end":6436.015,"text":"處新臺幣4萬元以上20萬元以下罰還並得獻期改善金獻期改善借期未改善者得按次處罰之"},{"start":6437.603,"end":6458.443,"text":"委员黄梦凯等人委员陈廷飞等人提案第28条同委员罗廷威等人提案委员徐巧兴等人提案第28条之一有下列情势之一者处心态必4万元以上20万元以下罚还并得现期令其改善经现期令其改善借其未改善者得按次处罚之"},{"start":6459.062,"end":6486.303,"text":"一 特定寵物之繁殖買賣或寄養業者違反中央主管機關一第二十二條第二項鎖定辦法中有關特定寵物繁殖場買賣或寄養業者應具備之條件設施專任人員之規定二 違反第二十二條之二第三項規定進行特定寵物買賣交易或轉讓時未完成寵物變更登記即將特定寵物交付他人委員徐巧欣等人提案第二九條第一項第三款修正為"},{"start":6487.174,"end":6506.267,"text":"違反第15條 第15條之一第一項 第16條第一項第16條之二第一項 第17條之一第一項其餘同現行條文委員羅廷維等人提案第29條有下列請示之一者處新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰還現行條文第一項第二款 疑列第一款"},{"start":6507.13,"end":6533.888,"text":"二違反第十四條之一第二項不得規避妨礙或拒絕之規定三違反第十六條第一項規定未組成實驗動物照護及使用委員會或小組三四違反第二十條第二項規定無成年人伴同或未採取適當防護措施使具攻擊性寵物出入於公共場所或公眾得出入之場所"},{"start":6535.731,"end":6560.187,"text":"五違反第22條之二第五項規定非特定寵物業者擅自使用特定寵物業之許可證字號進行廣告行銷宣傳六違反第22條之四第一項規定製造加工分裝批發販賣輸入輸出贈予或意圖販賣而公開陳列有同項第三款或第五款情形之一之寵物食品"},{"start":6563.7,"end":6579.375,"text":"7.違反第22條之4第1項第4款規定製造、加工、分裝、批發、販賣、輸入、輸出、贈與或意圖販賣而公開陳列有未標示情形之寵物食品8.違反第22條之4第1項第4款規定"},{"start":6583.443,"end":6610.268,"text":"製造 加工 分裝 批販賣 輸入輸出 贈餘或意圖販賣而公開陳列有標示不明或標示不全情形之寵物食品經執轄市縣市主管機關通知限期改善 借期未改善九 違反第22條支五第一項規定 為依規定標示經限期改善 借期未改善時違反第22條支五第二項有關標示 宣傳或廣告"},{"start":6611.704,"end":6635.388,"text":"不得有不實誇張或使人產生誤解之規定十一違反第22條之五第三項規定製造販賣輸入輸出或使用有同項各款情形之一之寵物食品容器或包裝十二違反第23條第五項規定規避妨礙或拒絕執行稽查取締之人員依法執行之務"},{"start":6636.266,"end":6658.201,"text":"十三違反第二三條之一第四項規定規避妨礙或拒絕檢查的人之檢查或抽樣檢驗十四違反第二三條之三第二項規定規避妨礙或拒絕之瑕疵縣市主管機關所採取之措施十五違反第二四條第一款使用動物進行科學應用或教育訓練之規定為一線改善或為必要之處置"},{"start":6659.122,"end":6681.7,"text":"十六 違反第二四條第二款實驗動物照護及使用委員會或小組之任務或管理之規定為一線改善或為必要之處置前項第一款或第十五款所設動物不問屬於何人所有此下是縣市主管機關德目錄之委員廖先祥等提案第二九條現行條文第一項"},{"start":6683.294,"end":6701.806,"text":"第一項第二至第五款 以列自第一款至第四款 第五款修正為違反第二十一條之一規定棄養動物 現行條文第七至第十款 以列第六至第九款 第二項守據修正為前項第一款或第二款所設動物其餘同現行條文 臺灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":6704.207,"end":6719.827,"text":"提案第29條第1項第6款修正委違反第23條第2項至第5項規定規避妨礙或拒絕直轄市縣市主管機關或委任委託或委辦之其他機關構法人團體或個人依法執行職務"},{"start":6721.048,"end":6737.478,"text":"其餘同現行條文 委員蘇巧慧等人提案第二十九條第一款修正委違反第五條第三項或第四項規定棄養動物會位於實縣內通報者其餘同現行條文 委員吳祁銘等人提案第二十九條現行條文第二款 以列之第一款"},{"start":6739.437,"end":6760.142,"text":"修正第二款違反第十四條之一第二項不得規避妨礙或拒絕之規定其餘同現行條文第一項第二項款次著作修正委員洪孟凱委員陳婷菲等人提案第二九條同委員羅廷維等人提案委員林黛樺等人提案第三十條第一項第八款修正為"},{"start":6761.545,"end":6779.149,"text":"違反第十四條之二規定為經中央主管機關許可製造販賣承諾持有或輸出出入售甲含金屬材質之彈簧虛壓式套索陷阱電擊項圈及其他經中央主管機關公告之物品"},{"start":6779.71,"end":6803.505,"text":"增訂第九款違反第十四條之二第二項規定廣告刊登者網際網路平臺提供者或網際網路應用服務提供者未限制瀏覽或移除同條第一項物品之違法網頁資料現行條文第九至第十款一列至第十至十一款第二項中款次主作修正其餘同現行條文"},{"start":6804.125,"end":6819.361,"text":"委員許巧欣等人提案第30條第1項第8至第13款修正違8違反第14條之2第1項規定未經中央主管機關許可製造販賣陳列持有或輸出入售甲含金屬材質之"},{"start":6820.101,"end":6846.709,"text":"谈防需要是套索陷阱及其他金庄主管机关公告之物品9.违反第14条之二第二项规定刊登者网际网路平台提供者或网际网路应用服务提供者未限制浏览或移除同条第一项物品之违法网页资料或拒绝提供资料10.违反第16条之四第一项未主动公布法规要求或政府补助之动物实验资讯"},{"start":6847.869,"end":6872.791,"text":"11違反第17條規定12違反第22條之二第三項規定特定寵物繁殖或買賣業者於特定寵物買賣交易或轉讓時未提供購買者或收讓者有關寵物資訊之文件13違反第22條之二第四項標示不實未標示或標示錯誤之許可證字號但屬未標示或標示錯誤之許可證字號者"},{"start":6873.351,"end":6886.164,"text":"金職辖市縣市主管機關通知縣企改善借其未改善者處罰之其餘同縣刑條文委員廖先祥等提案第30條第一項第一及第二款修正委"},{"start":6886.926,"end":6911.635,"text":"一違反第五條第二項第一款至第十款規定未達動物受傷狀況經限期令其改善 藉其能為改善二違反第五條第二項第一款至第十款及第六條規定過失傷害或使動物遭受傷害而未達動物肢體嚴重殘缺重要器官功能喪失或死亡 現行條文第四至第八款"},{"start":6912.515,"end":6931.899,"text":"一列第3款至第7款第8款修正為違反第22條第4項不提供其特定寵物飼養狀現況及獸轉讓飼主資料經限期令其改善藉其人位改善其餘同現行條文第1項刪除現行條文第2項委員郭玉琴等人提案第30條第1項第8"},{"start":6934.44,"end":6957.134,"text":"第九款修正違違反第十四條之二第一項規定為金裝主管機關許可製造販賣陳列或輸出入售夾及其他金裝主管機關公告之物品第九款違反第十四條之二第二項規定攤登者網際網路平臺提供者或網際網路應用服務提供者為限制瀏覽或移除同條第一項"},{"start":6958.035,"end":6967.173,"text":"物品之違法網頁資料或拒絕提供資料現行條文第九款第十款一列十一款其餘同現行條文臺灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":6971.107,"end":6997.187,"text":"第30條第二項第二具修正為經裁罰處分確定之日期莫具修正為處三年下有歧途刑其餘同線刑條文委員羅廷偉等人提案第30條第一項第8款至第16款修正為8違反第14條之二規定為金裝主管機關許可製造販賣陳列輸出錄售假或其他金裝主管機關公告禁止使用與捕捉動物之物品"},{"start":6997.907,"end":7007.079,"text":"就違反第十四條之三第一項規定經主管機關通知後未限制瀏覽移除違法網頁資料或採取其他必要之處置"},{"start":7008.132,"end":7026.7,"text":"十違反第十四條之三第二項規定未保留違法網頁資料行為人之個人資料或網路使用記錄資料十一違反第十四條之三第四項規定規避妨礙或拒絕提供違法網頁資料行為人之個人資料或網路使用記錄資料"},{"start":7029.136,"end":7044.88,"text":"十二違反中央主管機關第十九條之一第二項鎖定辦法中之分級管理措施或有關事主應具備之資格條件飼養照護方式設施及其他應遵行事項之規定是"},{"start":7046.203,"end":7068.961,"text":"13.違反第22条之二第三项规定进行特定宠物买卖交易或转让时未完成宠物变更登记即将特定宠物交付他人14.违反第22条之二第三项规定特定宠物繁殖或买卖业者于特定宠物买卖交易或转让时未提供购买者或售让者有关宠物资讯之文件"},{"start":7069.702,"end":7096.32,"text":"十五 違反第二十二條之二第四項規定特定寵物業者進行廣告行銷宣傳時未標示或標示錯誤之許可證字號經執轄市或縣市主管機關通知限其改善 借其未改善十六 違反第二十二條之二第六項規定借用他人之許可證字號其餘同現行條文委員洪孟凱等人 委員陳婷菲等人提案第三十條 同委員羅廷維等人提案"},{"start":7097.864,"end":7113.187,"text":"委員謝一鳳等三人所提修正動議第30條第一項第8至第9款修正違法違反第14條之二規定未經中央主管機關許可製造販賣成業持有或輸出入售甲含金屬材質之談判需要事"},{"start":7113.737,"end":7131.308,"text":"套索、陷阱、惦记项圈及其他经中央主管机关公告之物品9.违反第14条之二第二项规定广告刊登者、网际网路平台提供者或网际网路应用服务提供者未限制浏览或移除同条第一项物品之违法网页资料"},{"start":7132.468,"end":7155.219,"text":"現行條文第九第十款一列十十一款其餘同現行條文第一項第二項後段修正為五年內故意再次違反前項第一款至第九款規定之一者處六個月以上二年以下有期徒刑其餘同現行條文委員侯孟海等人提案第三十條之一第一項手續修正第一款手續修正為"},{"start":7156.079,"end":7174.894,"text":"四 違反第五條第二項第一款至第十一款各款之一或第六條規定第二款手續修正違違反第五條第二項第一款至第十一款各款之一或第六條規定取同現行條文委員廖先祥等人提案第三十條之一刪除"},{"start":7175.663,"end":7204.484,"text":"委員羅廷維等人提案委員陳廷飛等人提案第30條之一同委員洪孟海等人提案委員劉建國等人提案第32條第一項第一款默劇修正為使動物生命健康有受危害之餘增進第三款任何人違反第6條規定使動物生命或健康有受重大危害之餘行為人非動物飼主時應通知飼主飼主無法通知時不在此限"},{"start":7206.17,"end":7235.67,"text":"現行條文第三款至第五款 以列第四至第六款增訂第七款及第八款 其違反第十條第一款至第三款規定之一所利用之動物八 四組違反第十二條第一項 第二項或第三項規定其餘同現行條文委員廖先祥等人提案第三十二條現行條文第三至第五款 以列第二至第四款增訂第五款 違反第二十一條之一規定"},{"start":7237.388,"end":7254.024,"text":"經飼主棄養之動物其餘同現行條文委員郭玉琴等人提案第32條第一項第一款修正為飼主違反第5條第二項規定使其飼養之動物遭受虐待惡意傷害其餘同現行條文"},{"start":7254.813,"end":7281.238,"text":"委員偵證前等人提案第32條第一項第一款墨具修正為情節重大其餘同線性條文委員羅廷維等人提案第32條第一項第一及第二款修正為一四組違反第五條第二項或第六條規定使其管理動物之生命或健康有受重大危害之餘二違反第五條第三項第四項第六項第十四條第三項規定經四組棄養之動物"},{"start":7283.138,"end":7293.74,"text":"增訂第六款至第九款六違反第十條各款規定之一所利用之動物七 四如違反第十二條第一項第二項第三項第一款規定之一"},{"start":7294.997,"end":7321.412,"text":"八 適如違反第22條第三項規定未經許可擅自繁殖之特定寵物九 有第25條或第25條之一第一項鎖定行為之行為人所飼養之動物三除現行條文第二項其餘同現行條文委員侯孟凱等人委員陳婷菲等人提案第32條同委員羅廷維等人提案委員劉建國等人提案第33條第一項第一款修正為"},{"start":7322.132,"end":7339.963,"text":"违反第五条第二项或第六条规定饲养照护不善或使动物遭受恶意或无故之骚扰虐待或伤害第二项修正为违反前条或前项各款规定之四主直辖市县市主管机关得禁止其任养"},{"start":7340.669,"end":7358.099,"text":"自直轄市縣市主管及管轄之動物收容處所之動物及不許可其申請經營特定寵物繁殖買賣或寄養其餘通縣刑條文委員郭玉琴等人提案第33條刪除縣刑條文第一項第一款"},{"start":7358.851,"end":7383.529,"text":"款式调整其余同性型条文委员罗廷伟等人提案第33条第一项序文第三具体修正为直辖市县市主管机关应通知四组献其改善借其为改善者的进行没入其动物第一款修正为违反第五条第二项或第六条规定饲养照顾不善或使其管理动物遭受骚扰虐待或伤害"},{"start":7384.489,"end":7403.8,"text":"現行條文第三及第四款一列為第二及第三款第二項修正為違反前條或前項各款規定之四主直轄市縣市主管機關等禁止其任養直轄市縣市主管機關管轄之動物收容處所之動物及不許可其申請經營特定寵物"},{"start":7406.013,"end":7431.302,"text":"繁殖 買賣或寄養 委員洪孟凱等人 委員陳亭飛等人提案第33條 同委員羅廷維等人提案委員劉建國等人提案第33條之一第一項序文修正為有下列情勢之一者之下是縣市主管機關得令其不得飼養違規行為所涉同物種之寵物且不得認養一第14條第一項收容之動物第二款修正為無正當理由將"},{"start":7433.255,"end":7461.792,"text":"將不擬繼續飼養之動物送交動物收容處所第三四六款墓具增加且情節重大等文字第二項修正違違反前項規定在飼養寵物或認養動物者處心臺幣三千元以上一萬五千元以下罰還直轄市縣市主管機關並得沒入期在飼養之寵物或動物增訂第四項經依第二十五條第二十五條之一條判決"},{"start":7462.765,"end":7486.713,"text":"有罪还起诉或处罚经者法院得尽命行为人接受认知教育辅导暴力防治辅导及其他辅导并得命行为人接受有无必要施以其他处遇计划之鉴定自辖市县市主管机关得于法定裁定前对处遇计划之实施方式提出异议其余同现行条文"},{"start":7487.193,"end":7500.462,"text":"委員廖先祥等人提案第33條之一第一項序文修正為有下列情勢之一者不得飼養第三條第一項第五款規定之寵物及認養一第十四條第一項收容之動物"},{"start":7501.693,"end":7527.078,"text":"其餘同線型條文 委員羅廷維等人提案第33條之一 第一項序文修正為有下列情勢之一經受處分者之瑕疵或縣市主管機關得令行為人不得飼養違規行為所涉同物種之寵物或依第19條第一項應辦理登記之寵物且不得認養依第14條第一項收容之動物第二款修正為無正當理由將目擬"},{"start":7528.482,"end":7547.58,"text":"继续饲养之动物送交动物收容处所第二项同委员刘建国等人提案第二项其余同现行条文委员郭玉琴等人提案第33条之一第一项序文修正为有下列情事之一者不得饲养动物增订第四项文字同委员刘建国等人提案第四项其余同现行条文"},{"start":7548.18,"end":7574.517,"text":"委員洪孟凱等人委員陳婷菲等人提案第三十三條之一同委員羅廷維等人提案委員郭玉琴等人提案第三十三條之二第三項莫居修正委並應給予獎勵增訂第四項前項應給予之獎勵其最低額度發放條件對象程序及其他相關事項之全國一致性檢舉獎勵辦法由中央主管機關定之取與同現行條文"},{"start":7575.526,"end":7595.671,"text":"委員邱若驊等人提案第33條之二刪除現行條文第三項其餘同現行條文委員邱若驊等人提案第33條之三對於違反本法之行為民眾得續明事實或檢據證據資料項所在地執行機關或主管機關檢舉主管機關或執行機關對於前項檢舉經查證屬實並處以罰還者其罰還金額達一定數額時"},{"start":7605.086,"end":7622.1,"text":"得以實收罰款總金額收入之一定比例提供檢舉獎金與檢舉人前項檢舉及獎勵辦法由直轄市縣市主管機關定之主管機關或執行機關為前項查證時對檢舉人之身份應予保密"},{"start":7625.262,"end":7642.729,"text":"修正動議第二案委員陳昌明等人所提修正動議第三條修正第十款時虐待執以暴力不當使用藥品器物不作為或其他方法致傷害動物或使其無法維持正常生理狀態"},{"start":7644.329,"end":7670.692,"text":"或违反物种天性或有具体事实可推断动物遭受痛苦或严重压迫之行为其余同现行条文第15条科学应用应优先以非动物或非活体动物之替代方法为之如有使用动物之必要时应以最少数目为之并以使动物产生最少痛苦及伤害之方式为之"},{"start":7671.272,"end":7675.22,"text":"中央主管機關因應動物之種類訂定實驗動物之來源適用範圍及管理辦法第16條第一項"},{"start":7685.336,"end":7715.156,"text":"第十六条之一第一项进行动物科学应用者应事先向机构之实验动物照护委员会或小组提出申请并经审查同意使得进行变更时一同第四项第一款依违反第三项限期改善之要求第五项中央主管机关应定实验动物照护及使用使用使用委员会或小组审查评估动物科学应用计划之"},{"start":7715.997,"end":7735.612,"text":"準則其餘同委員徐小青等人提案第十六條之二科學應用機構因依中央主管機關指定格式保留十年內計畫審查內部查核監督改善爭議處理等文件被查"},{"start":7737.202,"end":7765.78,"text":"中央主管機關應每年公開科學應用機構之動物實驗資訊包含實驗機構類別與數量研究計畫類型與領域動物種類動物來源使用數量使用次數動物疼痛程度動物死亡數量與方式重活動物之後續處理及其他相關科學應用之項目第十六條之三刪除"},{"start":7767.369,"end":7792.789,"text":"第十六條之四進行動物科學應用制機構應主動公佈法規要求及政府補助研究之動物實驗資訊但其他法律有特別規定保留保密之必要者不在此限前項法規要求動物實驗或測試之資訊動物科學應用制機構應每年定期公開"},{"start":7794.96,"end":7802.068,"text":"第一項應公開動物實驗資訊由中央主管機關公告之第十七條刪除委員書巧惠委員提案"},{"start":7813.004,"end":7835.765,"text":"第十七條之一 動物實驗應用機構應設置實驗動物獸醫師參與計畫審查計畫核定後之監督動物之照護與處置及其他中央主管機關公告事項第十八條 各級學校如需進行動物科學應用應經實驗動物照護及使用委員會或小組審查同意"},{"start":7836.909,"end":7855.849,"text":"高級中等以下學校國民補習教育學校高級中學附屬進修教育學校進行科學應用之範圍僅限於教育主管機關鎖定之課程綱要短期補習班不得進行動物科學應用中央主管機關得指定公告"},{"start":7856.85,"end":7880.022,"text":"優良科學應用機構協助審查輔導各級學校或小型機構之動物科學應用其協助輔導辦法由中央主管機關定之第18條之一高級中等以下學校學生參加科學展覽會或競賽活動涉及動物科學應用時不得進行足以使動物受傷害或死亡之教學或實驗"},{"start":7881.463,"end":7900.631,"text":"且應經實驗動物照護及使用委員會或小組審查同意時得為之第二四條直轄市或縣市主管機關對於違反第15條第一項第16條之二第一項第16條之四第一項規定之機構學校行為人應先通知縣級改善或為必要之處置"},{"start":7902.284,"end":7928.919,"text":"第29條第一項第三款修正為違反第15條第一項 唯一第24條規定限期改善或為必要之處置第二項修正為前項第二款或第四款所設動物不問屬於何人所有直轄市或縣市主管機關得目錄之其餘同線型條文第30條修正第一項第8款"},{"start":7930.211,"end":7957.566,"text":"違反第十四條之二第一項規定未經中央主管機關許可製造販賣成業持有或輸出入售甲含金屬材質之彈簧需要式套索陷阱及其他經中央主管機關公告之物品增訂第九款違反第十四條之二第二項規定刊登者網際網路平臺提供者或網際網路應用服務提供者未限制瀏覽或移除同條第一項物品之違法網頁"},{"start":7959.377,"end":7964.704,"text":"或拒絕提供資料第十款違反第十五條第二項實驗動物來源"},{"start":7969.528,"end":7998.056,"text":"适用范围及管理规定十一违反第十六条之一第一项进行科学应用未经实验动物照护及使用委员会或小组审查同意十二违反第十七条第一项科学应用后动物已失去部分肢体器官或能持续承受痛苦足以影响生存品质未以最少痛苦方式宰杀十三违反第十七条第二项科学应用后动物未待"},{"start":7999.076,"end":8004.008,"text":"其恢復生理功能及進行科學應用14違反第17條之一第一項"},{"start":8005.558,"end":8033.3,"text":"未設置實驗動物獸醫師15違反第18條第一項學校進行動物科學應用未經實驗動物照護及使用委員會或小組審查同意16違反第18條第二項規定高級中等以下學校國民補習教育學校高級中學附設進修教育學校進行非屬主管教育行政機關所定制課程綱要所包含之科學應用"},{"start":8034.28,"end":8063.036,"text":"17.違反第18條第三項規定短期補習班利用動物進行科學應用18.違反第18條之一規定科學展覽會或競賽活動涉及動物科學應用未經實驗動物照護及使用委員會或小組審查同意19.違反第22條之二第二項規定寵物繁殖或買賣業者與寵物買賣交易時據未提供購買者有關寵物資訊之文件"},{"start":8065.267,"end":8093.256,"text":"二十違反第二十二條之二第三項規定寵物繁殖買賣或接養業者於電子平面電信網路及其他媒體進行廣告行銷宣傳時未標示其許可證字號修正第二項違反前項第一款至第十二款規定之一經裁罰處分送達至日期五年內故意再次違反前項第一款至第八款規定之一者處二年以下有期徒刑第一項第十款至第十八款"},{"start":8094.176,"end":8114.999,"text":"所涉動物不問屬於何人所有 此下是縣市主管機關的默錄之其餘同線型條文第三十條之一有下列情勢之一者處薪台幣三千元以上一萬五千元以下罰還並得按次處罰之一違反第五條第二項第一款至第十款規定未達動物受傷狀況"},{"start":8116.7,"end":8130.695,"text":"經限期令其改善 借其能為改善 二違反第五條第二項第一款至第十款及第六條規定過失傷害或使動物遭受傷害而未達動物肢體嚴重殘缺重要器官功能喪失或死亡"},{"start":8131.656,"end":8146.193,"text":"三 違反第16條之二第一項科學應用機構未依保留五年內計畫審查內部查核監督改善爭議處理之文件被查未依第24條規定限期改善或為必要之處置"},{"start":8148.803,"end":8162.2,"text":"第四款違反第十六條之四第一項動物科學應用機構未公布法規要求及政府補助研究之動物實驗資訊唯一第二四條規定限期改善會為必要之處置"},{"start":8164.827,"end":8191.76,"text":"第三款一列為第五款新增第二項違反前項第一至第五款規定者經財法處分送達之日起五年內再次違反前項第一至第五款規定之一者處以一萬五千元罰還委員林黛樺 郭玉琴等四人所提修正動議第三條第一款除劇中陣列犬貓及其他等文字外須依均同現行法條文"},{"start":8193.976,"end":8218.434,"text":"其餘金童委員郭議員等16人提案第三條第十款第三條第一款第十款虐待質疑暴力不當使用藥品器物不作為或其他方法自傷害動物或使其無法維持正常身體狀態或違反物種天性或有具體事實可推斷對動物遭受痛苦或嚴重壓迫之行為外其餘金童委員郭議員等16人提案第三條"},{"start":8221.087,"end":8240.731,"text":"委員郭益勤委員林大華郭益勤等4人所提修正動議增訂第22條之6除刪除出生或等3之外 區域均衡委員郭益勤等16人提案增訂第22條之6委員蔡宇張雅玲等4人所提修正動議第3條"},{"start":8243.348,"end":8266.503,"text":"除增訂第13款衝突熱區指主管機關分析研究遊蕩動物與民眾衝突侵擾經濟動物攻擊野生動物等案件經科學研究程序確認距離化射後由主管機關公告至特定區域外 區域均同區域均同委員書小二等持期限提案第13條第14條"},{"start":8272.799,"end":8295.212,"text":"除增訂第6款主管機關1本法第3條第1項第13款公告之衝突熱區及任何人不得於區域內進行下列行為一餵食遊蕩動物二吃飯供遊蕩動物或野生動物取食之飼料或設置餵食器具三以其他方式誘引遊蕩動物外區域均同委員出橋等17人提案第14條第22條之二"},{"start":8299.113,"end":8323.73,"text":"除第二項修訂為特定寵物繁殖或買賣業者其特定寵物應以完成晶片植入或完成其他可辨識方式之標示並辦理寵物登記後 使得買賣貨物轉讓他人外區域均衡 委員過疫情等16人提案第二十二條之二第三十條之一除增訂第一項除增訂"},{"start":8324.605,"end":8337.818,"text":"第三款違反第14條第6項規定之禁止行為及第三款改例第4款外區域均同為洪孟凱等16人提案第30條之一附帶決議"},{"start":8339.468,"end":8368.906,"text":"有關本法第3條第1項第13款鎖定之衝突熱區 其公告內容應明確採明區域範圍保護目標及相關管制事項並應以公告之衝突熱區內之明顯處所設置清除異變之警示標誌以提示民眾區域內應遵守之相關限制必令民眾事前自息並配合遵循前一項全數衝突熱區之公告內容警示標誌之設置原則樣式及相關執行事項應由中央主管機關統一訂定以確保制度執行之一致性與明確性"},{"start":8369.566,"end":8386.861,"text":"上述相關依循準則或辦法 主管機關應於本法公佈三個月內完成相關法制作業委員差異於林大化 陳晴菲 張雅玲提案宣讀完畢補充修正動議第四案"},{"start":8389.406,"end":8414.132,"text":"委員 蔡育宇 林黛樺 陳廷飛 張雅琳提案第三條修正新增第13款衝突熱區阻止主管機關分析研究延宕動物與民眾衝突滋擾經濟動物攻擊野生動物等案件經科學研究確認發射後由主管機關公告之特定區域區域同宿角會提案你念過了"},{"start":8417.522,"end":8444.785,"text":"補充宣讀完畢好我們特別感謝議事組人員我們運用了將近兩個鐘頭的時間將38位委員所提案以及修正動議都已經由議事組人員宣讀完畢那我們現在先休息"},{"start":8931.209,"end":8948.604,"text":"好 各位謝謝我們現在請問各位同仁上次的會議議事錄有沒有問題有沒有錯誤 來印一下那個曾天才委員上次會議議事錄 有無錯誤好 謝謝 那麼我們議事錄確認"},{"start":8952.659,"end":8968.371,"text":"接下來我們現在進行協商動物保護法部份條文修正草案我們共計有38位委員提案版本那委員所提的修正動議並同審查我們先從第一條開始討論請農業部部長說明"},{"start":8979.35,"end":9003.56,"text":"主席 各位委員 那有關於動保法第一條的部分 那最主要的委員的一些版本裡面 我們歸納最主要是很多委員都希望將感知能力 就動物具有感知能力 這個感知能力把它放到條文裡面去 那基本上我們農業部是支持的但是就立法的一些"},{"start":9004.46,"end":9019.79,"text":"技術上面來講也許這感知能力可以放在第三條裡面的一些第一環裡面的定義去把它做一個處理這是第一點那第二點的部分就是有關於特別提到的動產的部分"},{"start":9022.031,"end":9043.401,"text":"那動產的部分特別是蘇巧慧版本裡面涉及到一些相關的動產那因為動產跟法規的一些民法跟刑法的一些體制上面來講那是不是可以請相關的法務部他們提供一個比較具體的一個意見有沒有說明一下應該跟委員說明就是說"},{"start":9046.778,"end":9066.395,"text":"動物本身在民法目前的限制上目前的認定上就是一個動產就是個動產那的確它有些時候跟桌子車子是不一樣的因為它具有感知能力但是如果為了保障這些犬貓這些動物具有感知能力的動物如果我們想要更"},{"start":9066.915,"end":9083.882,"text":"周全的保障它有别于民法的规定的话我们建议是在相关的法律比如动保法或比如其他相关的法规去明定怎样去保护这些动物而你今天如果只是单纯写准用动产那这是一个只是一个概念"},{"start":9084.542,"end":9106.068,"text":"那到底怎么具体保护他还是不知道到时候还是主管就要去界定他说什么东西装装下不适用但是能不能更周全的保护这个犬猫我们是建议是说如果有什么措施我们是想要具体保护他是具体具体纳入我们的动保法或其他相关的法律而不是用一个通则的方式去明定这以上"},{"start":9107.674,"end":9128.778,"text":"我首先 郭同仁 我先请教一下因为今天我们等了很久我们这个在12月3号询答的时候我们等了很久也就是希望行政院版要赶快进来那我首先大家都想知道行政院版到底什么时候会进来现在行政院版的进度是怎么样"},{"start":9129.398,"end":9153.977,"text":"我跟委員報告就是有關於動物保護法本身在行政院基本上在整個條例的一個審查都已經完成了那就是差最後的一步就是要通過院會以後才能夠送到立法院來那現在我們正積極的協商看行政院這邊可不可以盡快的排入院會的一個議程裡面然後再通過以後再送到立法院來"},{"start":9154.639,"end":9167.588,"text":"部長有沒有具體的時程因為12月3號我們在詢答的時候大家都關鍵給予你們時間趕快去跟行政院既然你們都審查過那行政院到底什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":9168.639,"end":9197.127,"text":"因為行政院在排那個院會的並不是農業部門可以去完全去掌握的那我們一直向行政院建議說是不是可以儘快的排錄到那現在到底有沒有比較具體的時間因為比如剛剛你說的動採動採的部分呢那如果是只有寫民法你希望在動動動物保護法裡面可以將具體的作為納入那在你們行政在你們農業部所提出的版本裡頭有沒有納入"},{"start":9198.274,"end":9220.476,"text":"我們在原來的版本是沒有沒有去處理這一條那對啊那你的版本都沒有處理這一條然後你現在所回答說必須要這麼做那不是很奇怪嗎照理講你今天我們透過了那麼久時間在我們113位委員有38位委員提案表示大家都很關心"},{"start":9221.617,"end":9245.97,"text":"那為什麼說從12月3號我們詢答到現在希望你們版本第一個還沒出來第二個你今天所做的回答應該是在你們農業部審查出去的版本你才會有說明啊那你今天口頭說明說必須要怎麼納可是在你的版本你仍舊沒有這個內容那這個到底要聽哪一個部分請再說說明"},{"start":9247.441,"end":9274.474,"text":"我跟委員報告因為我們動保法送到行政院審查的時候是去年就送進去了那在這個過程中當然委員有非常非常多的版本所以委員有提到的一些新的這些版本裡面的內容是沒有辦法在行政院那邊我們當初送出去裡面因為如果說再把委員不同時間送進來的版本的一些內涵再放進去的話那會變成整個又退回來又重新送"},{"start":9275.334,"end":9300.627,"text":"所以我們第一個就是說我們動保法本身在送的時候是去年就送進去了去年就已經送到行政院行政院去審核了那在這段時間裡面委員有提出的不同版本那變成在這不同的版本裡面如果說在我們委員會這邊如果大家取得一個共識的時候就可以把它納進去那相對的我們也希望說到時候行政院版本如果進來的話能夠並到這個整個的版本一起來審查"},{"start":9302.594,"end":9308.883,"text":"謝謝部長的說明第一個 去年已經送進去到行政院 到現在"},{"start":9310.186,"end":9329.278,"text":"已經一年多的時間行政院還沒有辦法出來問題出在哪裡我們希望因為立法院有38位的委員提案所有的社團團體都非常的關心所以我們也希望就是說大家關心的時事議題我們願意用這樣子的時間好好來討論我也請各位同仁我們"},{"start":9336.582,"end":9360.989,"text":"我也請行政部門將這38位委員以及修正動議的部分你們要詳實的去檢視然後也請行政院盡快出來送到立法院來這是我們最基本的一個要求沒有一個法案一年多到行政院到現在還沒有辦法出來到底是要還是不要"},{"start":9364.09,"end":9385.326,"text":"這個可能農業部再加油好 那各位同仁我們現在請針對第一條的部分來 哪一位哪一位先哪一個先郭議員然後陳昌明委員然後再來你幫他登記一下 好來 郭議員好 你幫我登記一下"},{"start":9386.648,"end":9405.131,"text":"我想這個第一條應該是一個基本的一個原則啦那剛剛其實有特別說明就是我們的民法的部分還是把動物當物嘛那這個其實之前我有在另外一個座談會當中有特別講這個民法應該要修啦就是動物應該要賦予不是要賦予他人格權"},{"start":9405.832,"end":9429.224,"text":"但是動物他有感知有生命所以這個部分可能我們連同民法的部分會動那我講一下我的這個第一條的版本因為我看到第一條的我自己目前的版本是因為我特別把這個動物保護不是只有在居家的一些寵物的定義而已那另外包含這個維持原棲地自然樣態為原則"},{"start":9430.925,"end":9458.869,"text":"就強調這個生態的系統跟個體的生命的一個連結所以在我的版本當中我有特別把這樣子的一個樣態跟需求把它放進去好 以上好 謝謝 接下來哪一位鄭天才委員陳昌明委員我看這個條文非常多行政院的版本也沒有出來請部長趕快去跟行政院溝通那我的建議是"},{"start":9459.981,"end":9469.766,"text":"行政院的版本進來以後我們再來討論關於動物保護法的部分條文的修正 這樣會比較完整"},{"start":9470.976,"end":9493.367,"text":"好 謝謝陳昌明委員 我們現在針對第一條 來接下來張雅玲委員好 謝謝主席那我想我自己是沒有提第一條但是我自己的想法是說因為如果要讓法條好短好執行的話 建議避免未來有出現太多的爭議 那我建議這一條先維持現行的版本 因為現在的修法上面陳儒剛剛部長的一個"},{"start":9496.924,"end":9521.484,"text":"建議 就是說因為它涉及到民法的一個修正那我是覺得說 因為這一條牽涉 這一類的牽涉範圍比較廣是不是可以配合整體制度然後一起來檢討 不是塞進那個單一的條文 那另外就是說還有針對於有委員提出來的這個要符合原汽地的概念的話 我會認為這個實際的影響可能不是只有寵物可能連經濟動物或其他的動物都有可能會被算進來"},{"start":9523.037,"end":9550.329,"text":"對那這樣子會不會反而讓食物上面很難去判斷飼主到底有沒有違規例如可能讓犬貓或者是現在常常講的這個特寵爬蟲類的動物在外活動的時候到底算不算符合他們的需求那這件事情可能就會產生很大的一個爭議好謝謝 接下來哪一位還有沒有 蔡宇友言好謝謝昭偉那第一條這個基本上是一個"},{"start":9551.634,"end":9578.632,"text":"比較開宗明義的一個條款他是那蘇巧惠的委員的版本他們認為說動物做財產權的課題的時候准用動產那這個概念上基本上就是所謂動物權的概念就已經比所謂動物保護又高出一層了那所以我想要請教的是說法務部這邊現在外國的立法例裡面有沒有把動物權直接"},{"start":9579.872,"end":9608.624,"text":"在他們的民法裡面民法大概就是分為人嘛人就是自然人跟法人那以及物那動物過去過去當然定義的就是在物就是屬於物權的一個部分那如果他用這樣一個立法例就是說准用准用關於動產的規定的話那他的整個跳出來變成動物權那動物權跟所謂的現在民法的概念裡面他並沒有這樣的"},{"start":9609.656,"end":9639.105,"text":"的這樣的一個用字用語那如果他這樣的話權力到底是什麼那外國的立法例如果有動物權存在的話這個動物權的架構定義是怎樣這個是不是請法務部可以給我們一個方向好我們統一等一下統一委員完在相關單位回覆還沒其他沒有我們請單位來說明我第一個先說明那個郭益勤委員所提到的這個"},{"start":9640.61,"end":9656.445,"text":"跟那個原棲地自然的樣態跟需求那因為我們現在針對動物的部分有野保法跟動保法這兩個部分那因為扯到棲地的時候就可能會跟野保法這邊會有一些競合的部分所以我們是建議說維持現在的一個條文那當然我們在"},{"start":9662.331,"end":9675.611,"text":"业保法那边如果说针对7D的部分能够需要再加强的话未来在业保法那边还可以再去加重跟7D有关的这些保护的部分那至于说那个动产的部分是不是可以请保护这边好 请保护"},{"start":9678.173,"end":9704.041,"text":"主席各位那目前關於動物它在法律上的定性目前傳統上是認為是屬於民法的物裡面的動產不過近年來也有新興的見解認為說動物它因為它是有生命體它有它的特殊性應該要有別於傳統的動產另外一個領域去保護那"},{"start":9706.328,"end":9728.308,"text":"我们委员的苏委员的第二项这个版本他是用准用动产制规定那这样的设计就变准用的话法律上的准用就是性质相近的时候再适用那如果性质判断这件事情的性质跟动产的不相容的话那就不适用也就是说"},{"start":9728.968,"end":9755.054,"text":"将来这个条文的设计这个准用变成是由主管机关这一边就个案的性质去判断它是不是要去适用比如说民法动产的相关规定或其他法律动产的相关规定它产生的效果会变成由主管机关针对个案的性质去做这个判断这是第一个那第二个就是说"},{"start":9757.452,"end":9785.599,"text":"刚刚蔡委员提的外国关于动物权的保护它的法制到底是放在民法还是放在其他的因为这个部分我目前没有这方面的资讯不过因为涉及到动物保护的领域我想农业部这边应该是会比较专业这个部分如果他们后面有掌握资讯的话是不是由农业部这边来补充至于说这样的"},{"start":9786.567,"end":9802.029,"text":"第二項是不是妥適因為它涉及將來如果它成為立法的話因為它的准用領域必須要由個案由主管機關這邊再來判斷就多出一個空間就對了那這個部分將來"},{"start":9803.591,"end":9827.395,"text":"農業部這邊在執行上是不是有自然難行的地方這個當然我得尊重農業部的意見那剛剛我聽農業部大概初步的一個說明是他們有關動物的保護會讓他們脫離傳統的動產這個概念也不反對只是說他們的方式是放在"},{"start":9828.929,"end":9847.349,"text":"動物保護法以下這些個別的條文個別的條文去保護牠而不是透過一個抽象的這個條文他們是放在以下的這些個別的條文裡面去讓牠有異於物的保護我的理解是這樣"},{"start":9848.83,"end":9877.448,"text":"謝謝好謝謝我們可不可以再請那個那麼我們最後再請郭育群委員好我補充一下為什麼我特別會在第一條這樣寫當初我們這樣訂的原因是因為現在其實還有很多的包含爬蟲類跟異蟲所以我們講的不是只有犬貓的問題而已其實還有爬蟲類跟異蟲其實都跟所謂的這個動物生存的相關所以我特別把這樣子的一個樣態寫進去所以這是我寫第一條的原因好"},{"start":9878.328,"end":9898.996,"text":"好 那這個各位同仁與行政部門因為我們等了一年多的行政院辦還沒有進來但是我們38位委員以及修正動議的委員大家都非常的關心所以我們仍舊希望要有進度那我們今天針對第一條大家聽聽看我們充分去討論之後"},{"start":9900.296,"end":9915.536,"text":"那原則上行政部門也認為有這個感知能力的他似乎是可以脫離在這個民法裡頭看有什麼專責的空間可以去制定那第二個也就在於"},{"start":9916.036,"end":9943.607,"text":"自然生態以及這個原棲地的這個認定那經過法務部以及農業部呢單位的一個說明以及委員的提議我認為請行政部門還是回歸在剛剛我們要開會以前具體討論以前本席所提出的請行政部門將委員所提案的38位以及修正動議那麼你們在一年多前"},{"start":9945.067,"end":9958.176,"text":"每一個環境時空都在變化請你們詳實地把這38位委員所提案的以及修正動議你們好好地跟你自己本身的版本去聯繫去討論"},{"start":9960.157,"end":9981.858,"text":"也跟38位委員以及修正動議的委員趕快做詳實的一個溝通這也非常重要所以至少在第一條我們已經有一個方向也就是大家對於動保法的部分修正條文是必要的所以第一條的部分我們經過充分討論包括的這個感知能力之後"},{"start":9982.818,"end":10004.03,"text":"動產要怎麼樣去處理請行政部門跟法務部這邊你們好好去研議研議出來有一個重點也就是即使那個空間出來之後要能夠讓你這個農業部在執行的時候能夠執行我覺得這個才是三贏的一個政策那麼至於棲地的部分因為有很多不一樣的樣態那也請這個行政部門"},{"start":10007.873,"end":10024.429,"text":"跟委员好好相识去讨论那第一条的部分我们经过充分讨论我们先保留好不好谢谢来我们继续第二条第二条请行政部门"},{"start":10025.302,"end":10038.807,"text":"好 那個第二條的部分那最主要是有關於相關的主管機關的一個認定那基本上整個的一個整個一個動保法的主管機關是農業部但是因為在那個"},{"start":10040.259,"end":10055.477,"text":"原條文裡面那個蘇曉慧委員裡面有特別提到一個跟那個凍保警察有關的就是明確設置凍保警察那因為如果說你明確的設置的凍保警察死的時候你的主管機關又會"},{"start":10056.778,"end":10084.564,"text":"又會有不一樣的一個改變所以在這個部分我們是建議因為動保警察本身要不要設置那牽涉到內政部我們過去跟內政部做了很多溝通那相關的這些警察本身他的業務的類別已經非常多了如果再設立一個動保警察對於整個內政部的警察人力來講會有一些困擾那這個部分也許等一下內政部也許會做一個補充所以我們是建議說這個動保警察的這個部分先不要納入"},{"start":10085.744,"end":10099.593,"text":"這個第二條裡面 那第二條裡面還是維持由我們農業部當作一個全職主管機關好 請教各位同仁有沒有哪一位 來雅琳 雅琳委員好 謝謝主席"},{"start":10100.049,"end":10125.272,"text":"那我想就是這部分我也想要請教就是說因為我們現在其實是有動保檢查員嘛那只是說現在大家認為是說這個他的公權力不足啦所以無法制止所以是希望有這個動保檢查但是因為也剛剛部長也有提到說這個可能跟我們現在在內政部警政署來說已經人力吃緊的狀況之下可能有一定的難度所以我也是想要請警政署說明一下你們的看法是什麼那再來就是說"},{"start":10126.213,"end":10142.603,"text":"如果說我們要增加的話 到底有沒有去試算過需要增加多少的人力然後如果不增加的話 那農業部打算要怎麼來去彌補我們現在一個現實食物上面的一個輸肉去解決現場的一個問題好 謝謝 那郭益勤委員"},{"start":10149.005,"end":10166.683,"text":"好我想這個動保警察的議題已經講了至少有10年以上了那雖然第二條我是沒有提版本但是我記得是在第一會期第二會期其實我就不管是在大院的總諮詢其實我有提到就是動保警察的部分"},{"start":10167.148,"end":10196.04,"text":"那當初其實農業部這邊部長也有特別承諾就是說我們要賦予動檢員他們更多的執法的權利就是往這樣子的一個正向去走那因為內政部警政署他們那邊其實還有人力配置的問題所以我們是可以朝這方面去再進行但是我想賦予動檢員更多的執法的權利我想這是一個比較完整的一個方向就是不要把這個動保警察的編制寫在條文裡頭可能會比較有彈性好 以上"},{"start":10196.82,"end":10199.423,"text":"好 謝謝 其他委員還沒有沒有 我們請那個"},{"start":10201.438,"end":10228.144,"text":"特別謝謝兩位委員的一個建議那特別是剛才那個委員所提到的人力的部分那因為這一次我在非洲豬瘟防疫的過程中第一線的時候有防疫人員跟相關的環保人員那防疫人員現在目前各縣市除了屏東縣以外他有把這些動保本身有跟防疫分開那其他縣市動保跟防疫人員是合在一起的"},{"start":10228.864,"end":10254.526,"text":"所以我在中央應變中心在後期在前面上兩個禮拜我就很仔細的請各地方政府提出我是希望說防疫歸防疫 動保歸動保你如果混在一起的時候他們的專業不一樣嘛所以他們現在陸陸續續也提供了各縣市人力配置的一些需求那有一部分是因為職缺不容易補到因為"},{"start":10255.387,"end":10282.717,"text":"不管是動保或是防疫的人員他在縣市政府他的工作是相對比較多的所以他們的缺都一直補不足但是不管缺有沒有補足我們希望說重新整體的考量我個人是希望說防疫跟動保之間的人力是可以做一個適當的切割然後相對的他們最新的版本提出來大概全全國大概有70多位想要新增70多位的相關的防疫跟"},{"start":10283.377,"end":10310.897,"text":"跟動保的這些人員那這個部分也不是農業部能夠直接核定的這個部分我想我們會收集這些人力的配置然後提交給人事總署那人事總署那邊我也跟人事長講過他也願意說在適當的時間可以召開一些就是座談會然後真正的讓人事總署那邊真正的了解我們第一線的防疫跟動保人員的一些困境然後我們也"},{"start":10311.617,"end":10335.452,"text":"我們農業部一定會積極的去協助他們做這個人力的一個爭取那第二個部分就是動保檢察員的部分我之前也曾經說過動保檢察員在我們的版本裡面有賦予他一些相關的一個的權利就是但是我也希望另外可能有機會的話可以設置一個動保官動保官的部分就類似消保官的部分就是當你有"},{"start":10336.132,"end":10359.799,"text":"有一些正義的時候可以在動保官的那個層級去做一些協商這樣的話也能夠加強第一線的動保檢查人員在執行的時候遇到一些跟其他的業務有一些漢格的時候需要協商的時候有一個動保官來執行這樣的一個協商那也可以取代一些現在目前的一個動保警察的一些執法的一個權利以上"},{"start":10360.575,"end":10384.877,"text":"好 謝謝各位同仁 針對於這個洪孟愷委員 洪孟愷委員翻譯完我們就來做第二條的一個議決 謝謝不是啦 主席 那如果說照我想部長今天要講話發言我們就是要大家一起往前邁進動保警察第十屆的時候本席也有提出來當時不分朝野大家都有講那結果內政部也一直講是說當然警察人力很吃緊 這個我們也尊重跟同意 因為"},{"start":10385.495,"end":10411.113,"text":"各行各業 現在警察的人力是確實非常辛苦那可是動保的議題 我們還是希望持續的關注那今天最大癥結點 剛好我聽到我們委員坐下來講是說行政院我們農委會部也沒有相關版本那如果說剛剛趙部長講是說你不要用動保警察那但是要加強動保員的這個權利或說這個溝通 那要動保官那你們的規劃做法在哪裡還沒有"},{"start":10412.23,"end":10422.455,"text":"沒有 就你今天跟我講了一遍就你自己有想法了然後結果你今天講了那結果你也沒有版本然後你今天說這個什麼時候要落實"},{"start":10424.192,"end":10450.895,"text":"我覺得如果說因為本席也有提這個版本那本席這次沒有把動保警察放進去是因為我也跟內政部也跟相關單位溝通我知道是說現在放進去真的不容易我不喜歡做虛的事我喜歡做實的事可是你今天既然你們有這樣的一個想法不要說看到執政黨委員提案你就特別的重視那在野黨委員提案就是一句話說沒能力就把他給打發這樣就沒意思了"},{"start":10451.823,"end":10473.142,"text":"那如果說今天既然我就follow剛剛部長講的我也希望說我們不分朝野大家就是為了動保來努力所以部長剛剛講的要落實那我們是不是能夠折騰看是三個月內提出動保官的相關的規劃時程你們的人力配置你們的方向那我們把它變成是附帶決議"},{"start":10474.908,"end":10500.817,"text":"來第二條這邊通過那我覺得這樣子可以往前一步因為是剛剛部長承諾的啊看起來部長也跟我們農業部相關的同仁都已經討論過這樣沒有問題吧部長我先跟委員回應一下我第一個跟他很抱歉就是在委員會審查這個版本的時候行政院的版本沒有進來那行政版本從去年進去以後那行政院會審這麼久其實在"},{"start":10501.417,"end":10527.842,"text":"我們去年送出去的時候也有非常多的委員的版本那就是因為版本裡面太過分歧那以行政院的立場來講就是希望找到一個有共識的法而且後續能夠執行的所以才會在行政院內部裡面就針對當時的很多委員的版本裡面去討論那一些有共識的部分才會放在我們新的一個條文裡面那如果說還沒有達到共識的時候才會再擱置或者是再去溝通"},{"start":10529.282,"end":10554.88,"text":"所以這也是為什麼行政院沒有問題嘛 部長那本席剛剛是對於您提出來動保官的部分我覺得我是有共識的你某種程度上可以說服我是因為我覺得是往前邁進一步就是說還沒有動保警察之前但我們要加強動保員的一個溝通協調能力以及如果說發生什麼事情的話可以跟警察來一起努力嘛是所以我現在就具體建議您既然也講到就是說已經送了"},{"start":10555.779,"end":10581.088,"text":"一年給行政院 那行政院一直遲遲不出院版所以農業部好像很無奈 那沒有問題啊那我們現在就通過第二條我們沒有我們還是以大多數委員的意見就是把農委會改成農業部但是至少說在這個附帶決議的時候把部長剛剛講出來的我們動保官的一個設置看我們要用怎麼樣的一個三個月內把它給提出來讓農業部可以更積極的往前作為嘛"},{"start":10581.608,"end":10606.24,"text":"第一個部分就是賦予動保檢查人員的更多的這些職權的執法的一個權利在我們送到行政院的版本已經討論也同意了啦那至於說動保官的部分我當初提出來是因應大家希望有動保警察那動保官的設計我想我們會另外有一些基本的設計也許在下次繼續討論的時候我們可以把它提出來去彌補這個部分"},{"start":10609.741,"end":10629.554,"text":"我們請林代化委我們第二條就來做一個意見我簡單兩點第一個就是我認為也不需要等到行政院的版本我都一直認為國會要自律我擔任七屆的立委我都認為我們的立法院永遠都是行政院的立法局"},{"start":10630.154,"end":10650.837,"text":"我們沒有真正的把國會自律自主而且充分反映民意去做成國會的自己的決議這件事情我認為我身為一個資深的國會議員我是非常的心有戚戚意為什麼都一定要等到要有行政院版本"},{"start":10652.138,"end":10670.473,"text":"當一個議題是藍綠白任何稱之無黨籍的立委高度的重視的時候而且每一個立委他所的發言都是代表他背後的民意當一個議題那麼有高度的民意共識幾乎沒有"},{"start":10671.193,"end":10699.593,"text":"任何的党派的国会议员反对的时候唯一反对的叫做行政院我讲的不管是国民党执政或民进党执政所以我一直强调请主席或者是我们在座的朝野的委员们不分党派如果真的尊重生命捍卫人捍卫动物权这个是我们希望提升在宪法层次的话"},{"start":10700.566,"end":10726.508,"text":"希望他能夠憲法層次雖然還沒有動物權直接入憲法但是我們你我都用願意已經有這樣高度重視在動物權入憲法的這樣的高度的這樣的一個概念的主張情況之下這邊就是一個動物權是一個生命的問題了所以就無非什麼叫做行政院版本"},{"start":10727.128,"end":10742.255,"text":"就只有民意的版本只有台灣人民的版本所以這是第一個我認為但是我還是尊重主席的決議啦這個我都還是尊重畢竟立法院不管資深或剛進來其實都是一個共識區"},{"start":10743.195,"end":10769.077,"text":"每一个人都是一样大每一个人的意见都是一样的重视这是第一个那第二个呢我认为我呼应洪梦凯委员了我认为不是只有三个月我限说在一个月而且你要做出现在的洞检员你的洞保警察以及你所谓提出来这是你第一次提出来的洞保官这三个的执掌"},{"start":10770.178,"end":10796.414,"text":"以及他的官他的這個職長以及他所屬的位階以及他所賦予的公權力我們最在意的這差很多官警察跟員哇 這個所行使的公權力差太多了你要逮捕誰可以逮捕誰可以搜索警察官可以嗎員更不可行誰可以發財罰單"},{"start":10799.229,"end":10820.26,"text":"官可以发吗员可以发裁罚单吗警察绝对可以开查罚单这个事关重大我觉得就我们大家我非常粗浅非常浅薄的一个公共政策的一个尝试来讲请你很严肃的提出这一个月来提出这三种的"},{"start":10821.02,"end":10832.854,"text":"这个三个职务希望能够调解在现场在动保当中所产生的争议这样这个人员的设置那是以上两点谢谢"},{"start":10835.228,"end":10862.402,"text":"非常感謝大家越來越有共識郭玉琴委員完謝一鳳委員我們就要做第二條的這個決議 謝謝好 那這個第二條其實剛剛有提到就是要賦予這個凍檢員他們有更多的這個司法執法的一個權利那這個部分其實我是放在第23條那我帶23條其實就是賦予凍檢員他們有這樣子的一個權利的同時把他們需要經過的不管是這個訓練的課程然後推訓 然後證書核可"},{"start":10862.802,"end":10874.978,"text":"等等這些條件我都是寫在23條所以如果等一下順利可以再往下繼續走的話其實我們也可以到23條去看一下我的版本那因為我的版本也特別再增訂了一個23-1那這個2323-3抱歉"},{"start":10879.624,"end":10899.46,"text":"23-3也是要去做橫向的包含就是我們的動保的主管機關然後跟我們的這個警察機關還有相關的其他的一個機關的協調跟聯繫的一個橫向的一個這樣子的一個機制我有特別加了23-3這個等一下其實我們如果順著走其實可以謝謝大家越來越有共識謝謝來謝一芬委員"},{"start":10902.694,"end":10917.634,"text":"谢谢主席其实我也认同刚才林黛华委员所说的其实如果这一条大家有共识不用等到行政院的版本进来我们就可以做一个议决因为"},{"start":10917.834,"end":10942.29,"text":"其實條文很簡單只是說在於現在共同的版本裡面當然我們當然希望說以保護動物為就是大家的共同目標希望設立動保警察但是以目前的確警力沒有辦法有足夠的人力的情況之下是不是能夠以現行的這個動保的人員"},{"start":10945.492,"end":10971.522,"text":"那提高他的位階然後增加他的這個權責等等的是不是有這樣子一個共同的方向如果有這樣一個共同的方向的時候我們是不是也可以在委員會來通過這樣子的一個這個條文也不用等到就是行政院進來喔那就是麻煩主席來做相關的裁決"},{"start":10975.199,"end":10989.633,"text":"好 來那各位同仁我們真的要謝謝38位我們的同仁不分藍綠白大家提出還有修正動議所以我們今天光光念宣讀條文我們就運用了兩個"},{"start":10991.795,"end":11005.768,"text":"消失的时间所以立法院经济委员会我们的立法院所有的同仁是以非常负责任的态度在讨论这个条文所以在刚刚所第二条的部分"},{"start":11007.453,"end":11030.97,"text":"農業部也還是希望回歸在單一單位就農業部這個大家有答案共識但是也就是動物警察或者是動物保護官現在暫定的說法是如此那大家有共識也就在執行方面要怎麼樣協助不管是剛剛部長所說的在你防疫的時候"},{"start":11031.93,"end":11047.495,"text":"各件事你統合出來怎麼樣把它切割開來那你基本上你預計要有70幾位的人力那怎麼樣去跟人事單位怎麼去處理這些我們都給予尊重但是立法院本身的最重要的價值"},{"start":11048.735,"end":11075.376,"text":"精神就在於我們要怎麼樣去落實動物保護法能夠落實而且大家經過討論達成共識所以各位同仁針對第二條的部分因為我們從第一條開始不管是這個感知能力或者是動保動財要怎麼樣加入到民法或者是在一個空間當中那跟現在我們雖然除了尊重行政院送到這個"},{"start":11078.479,"end":11088.393,"text":"農業部送到行政院的這個版本是在一年多前所以經過了一年多後行政院仍舊不出來我們真的覺得很"},{"start":11089.98,"end":11114.67,"text":"很离谱第二个也就是说那你农业部也必须要相对的尊重所有38位委员的提案以及修正动议就诚如刚才郭玉琴委员的我们在洪梦凯委员的动物警察以及郭玉琴委员的在第23条之3都有相对所以在条文方面的调次"},{"start":11115.912,"end":11121.268,"text":"我具体主席来这样建立我们所有的委员是不是我们请"},{"start":11122.729,"end":11149.362,"text":"農業部你運用兩個禮拜的時間將38位委員的這個提案以及修正動議你們在兩個禮拜內提出你們的建議版本就是農業部的建議版本送交這個立法院經濟委員會然後我們下一次具體我們不用等行政院你也趕快去追你的行政院行政院沒有出來的時候請你們兩個禮拜內具體的建議"},{"start":11152.083,"end":11176.352,"text":"按條序等把它理清楚我們下次會議直接再討論來 請教 國務卿委我Echo一下主席我覺得就是因為條文很多那每個委員其實都很希望動保法不要再被中斷了因為這是很多人的期待那其實就是像剛剛主席說的是不是先由布版"},{"start":11177.152,"end":11195.192,"text":"先把我們的整合就是把我們的條次稍微整合然後就是協同先出布板我們如果有布板我們直接就來下一次我們就可以來除條我覺得這樣子可能會把大家的條次都會比較有系統性的整合先有布板可以嗎以上"},{"start":11198.019,"end":11226.256,"text":"我先跟委員報告就是下一次懲罰的時候我想農業部送行政院的版本我們所了解的版本我們可以當參考因為我們沒有辦法因為正式的這些法案一定是由行政院送到立法院的所以農業部所到時候提出來的這些版本是當作參考當作委員討論的參考這第一點第二點就是說我們也會把這個38位委員的版本去做一個全部重新去釐定"},{"start":11226.976,"end":11245.89,"text":"然後有一些在原來並沒有提到行政院的版本但是我們也覺得因為時間的也經過嘛覺得說覺得也應該可以納入的那我們也會在那個版本裡面去做一些修正包括您剛才所提到的動產的部分還有一些相關的動檢"},{"start":11247.051,"end":11271.216,"text":"那個凍檢能源的部分凍檢能源的部分那凍檢能源我們之前因為郭委員那時候之前就提了嘛所以在我們的修正版本裡面同樣在23條也有那到時候我們的布板當作參考去審查的時候那相對的可能會比較清楚的了解到整個我們農業部當初在設計這個版本的一個邏輯因為我們考量的不是"},{"start":11272.476,"end":11283.062,"text":"還要有一個可以執行啦最重要是我們一個立法以後如果可以執行的時候是最好的那我們擔心的就是有時候立法下去以後再執行很困難的時候我們就會跟委員來說明"},{"start":11284.572,"end":11311.555,"text":"謝謝各位同仁剛剛我們跟行政部門以及各位委員所提的方向主席台所做成的決議本期再說明一次因為我們的的確確希望目前社會所需動保法的條文修正是勢在必行有38位的委員提案以及修正動議那麼我們責請行政部門也就是農業部在兩個禮拜之內"},{"start":11313.456,"end":11335.18,"text":"将我们所提案的以及修正的版本那么你们做出所有的整理做出你们的预计方向提出你们的版本出来那我们下一次在审议的时候就可以直接来做讨论那请教各位同仁本席所做的决议"},{"start":11336.254,"end":11343.759,"text":"有没有意见那你们一定要做到哦两个礼拜那同时我们今天的进度有第一条做保留"},{"start":11366.354,"end":11390.053,"text":"怎麼樣的名動保檢查人員跟動保官動保官跟動保檢查人員你也務必在下一次兩個禮拜內提出一定要提出來那這個是以上第一條跟我們今天第一條跟第二條進度我們做保留也做剛剛所必須務必在討論當中要提出的方案出來好"},{"start":11391.534,"end":11408.79,"text":"那各位大家沒有寶貴的意見呢那就容許主席台做今天會議的這個結論那麼我們針對討論事項所列的議案動物保護法部分條文修正草案我們定期繼續審查現在散會 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陳處長"},{"start":3219.555,"end":3245.461,"text":"喬教處林紀榮林處長喬商處游凱權游處長喬生處張文華張處長主計是柯淑玲柯主任通訊社吳小竹吳社長財團法人海外信用保證基金侯立揚侯董事長財團法人海華文教基金會陳柏秦陳執行長"},{"start":3251.277,"end":3260.133,"text":"本日會議邀請喬委員會報告鏈結海外橋台商與台灣產業共同發展之成果並被質詢現在請喬委會副委員長上台報告"},{"start":3277.782,"end":3299.949,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好今天請代表徐委員長請就鏈結海外橋台商以台灣產業共同發展之成果進行專題報告敬請各位委員先進會議指導"},{"start":3302.833,"end":3329.574,"text":"我們橋台商在橋區國都具有豐富的政經基礎跟人脈資源是我們深化台灣跟各國經貿合作促進台灣產業在全球佈局的重要推手是我國國力在海外的延伸特別是台灣在高科技半導體資通訊以及醫療生技"},{"start":3332.83,"end":3360.564,"text":"等眾多的產業領域都具有國際的競爭優勢台灣的研發技術能量可以支持海外橋材商事業持續茁壯發展本於這一項趨勢跟發展的條件所以橋委會長年扮演整合橋接平台協乎海內外產業 團體以及人才等多方面"},{"start":3361.96,"end":3384.971,"text":"面向交流合作促進資訊資源共享一方面善用台灣優勢協助橋台商轉型升級提升事業競爭力同時結合橋台商網絡協助台灣走向世界也讓世界走向台灣深化橋台商及台灣產業在全球的影響力"},{"start":3386.152,"end":3407.125,"text":"拓展臺灣國際能見度協助海內外產業攜手共創互惠雙贏並且已經獲至相當的成效以下請就僑委會近年推動鏈結海外調帶商跟臺灣產業共同發展的相關具體策略以及成果向大院委員會來報告說明"},{"start":3410.506,"end":3437.228,"text":"我們海外僑貸商遍布世界各地在本會及經濟部的共同輔導下已經成立了地區性國家級六大洲以及世界性的商會體系是服務我們僑貸商企業的重要的民間團體同時也是協助台灣產業前往當地國投資佈局的重要助力本會及所屬各地駐外單位"},{"start":3438.049,"end":3439.553,"text":"除了積極協服商會推展會晤並鼓勵商會發揮經貿專業功能辦理各項經貿論壇"},{"start":3447.554,"end":3474.549,"text":"投資經驗分享商機交流以及主題博覽會等敦促美促海內外連結合作創花更多的商機例如我們在114年的上半年已經協會世界台商會北美洲台商會以及亞洲台商總會共同辦理台美亞洲新供應鏈商機的交流論壇邀請了北美洲 亞洲 台灣"},{"start":3475.589,"end":3482.579,"text":"產學界的這個代表串聯市場端跟製造端深入探討全球供應鏈的最新趨勢這些"},{"start":3485.182,"end":3508.287,"text":"活動可以推動更多的台美企業跟人才的交流合作協助台灣廠商跟其他調帶商了解到美國投資法規以及相關的經營實務有助於我們台灣的企業海外擴展佈局我們也協乎歐洲的台商總會辦理歐洲經貿論壇來促進台歐產業鏈的鏈結"},{"start":3513.368,"end":3541.32,"text":"以及合作 機會協服世界台商總會在年會辦理各項全球台商經濟論壇及台灣優勢產業暨品牌展協助橋台商和台灣企業了解重點產業趨勢以及全球佈局策略增益海外各國橋台商與台灣企業跨境合作及投資機會共同拓展全球的經貿市場那第二"},{"start":3542.113,"end":3570.898,"text":"我們選拔福島優秀的橋台商深化跟台灣的鏈結為了協助海外橋台商跟青商的事業發展表揚傑出海外橋台商及青商深化海內外產業的連結合作所以本會跟經濟部外貿協會駐外管處橋台商組織及國內的工商團體通力來合作推動包括海外台商精品全球青商潛力之心"},{"start":3571.798,"end":3585.895,"text":"以及海外創業楷模獎海外台商磐石獎品牌金箔獎海外橋帶商組及華冠獎等等獎項迄今已經累計選拔出42件"},{"start":3588.452,"end":3613.225,"text":"獲獎的台商精品100位優秀青商241位創業楷模161位海外磐石獎18位金箔獎100位華冠獎得主共同挖掘全球超過600位卓業橋台商及青商那除了給他們辦理相關的公開表揚並且提供包括信保基金以及台灣的專業機構以及企業顧問"},{"start":3616.957,"end":3635.942,"text":"業師等等專業的資訊跟多元的資源透過對橋太商的優勢協助橋太商企業成長轉型升級我們希望透過這樣的方式每一處海內外企業互補對接互相壯大加深橋太商及青商與台灣人才技術與服務的鏈結"},{"start":3638.864,"end":3664.68,"text":"開創雙向發展的新契機第三我們強化全球調達商跟台灣的產官學員的對接那我們台灣擁有豐沛的研發技術以及產學合作能量所以本會持續跟國內的14所研發機構及39所大學院校合作推動全球調達商產業升級技術服務方案以及全球調達商產學合作方案來"},{"start":3666.201,"end":3691.553,"text":"串聯國內的研發單位 大學 院校 工協會工商團體 工商部門等交流合作串聯海內外資源共享協助橋台商擴大海內外事業版圖第四 我們提升橋台商經營實力搭建產業交流平台本會每年配合國家整體的經貿政策以及橋台商的需求在國內辦理橋台商事業經營"},{"start":3694.014,"end":3717.092,"text":"專業職能以及產業商機交流的培訓活動來提升台商事業的競爭力今年我們配合了六大核心戰略產業以及五大信賴產業推動方案以及國內大型的產業主題的會展辦理包括智慧安控、數位行銷、低碳減刑、智慧自動化、航太及無人機循環經濟及國際醫療等各項邀訪"},{"start":3720.194,"end":3729.797,"text":"培訓的這個活動並且安排參觀國內的相關的這個包括台北國際安全科技應用博覽會台北國際電腦展等等的專業展覽的這個活動來協服橋台商連結台灣產業優勢共同創發3G加速"},{"start":3741.32,"end":3759.509,"text":"企業全球策略的佈局第五 我們結合橋材商網絡資源行銷台灣軟實力美食跟觀光是我們的我國軟實力的重點項目為了推升行銷台灣效益以及協服台商事業發展所以本會歷年配合橋界的需求"},{"start":3760.937,"end":3779.67,"text":"結合商會、僑團辦理台灣美食及經貿專題等巡迴講座臨派國內專家前往海外來做相關的諮商、輔導跟教學我們114年台灣國際美食巡迴展辦理了5條路線巡迴全球18國47個地區總計有109場的活動觸及的人數達到6萬人並且結合台灣日、台灣夜市珍珠節、珍珠奶茶節"},{"start":3791.178,"end":3804.154,"text":"以及相關的這個活動跟當地的當地國的主流媒體觀光部門網紅以及餐飲學校通力來合作強化對主流社會的推廣深度跟廣度"},{"start":3805.689,"end":3825.404,"text":"也深受我們橋界的一個肯定第六 我們善用台灣的研發技術協助橋台商淨零轉型為因應淨零排碳以及環保永續的全球氣勢所以海外橋台商面臨的各項產業升級的轉型挑戰所以本會也協助橋台商企業永續發展"},{"start":3826.405,"end":3846.492,"text":"那辦理各項的這種輔助的這個活動包括我們在112年的完整的台商企業的溫室氣體盤查114年根據盤查的回饋意見辦理海外橋材商企業淨零排碳概念的強化計畫透過協輔橋材商企業培訓淨零排碳的種子人員"},{"start":3853.428,"end":3864.8,"text":"來提升橋材商淨零排炭相關的專業資能強化橋材商企業培育培養自主的盤查能力希望能夠透過相關的協助以因應2050年淨零轉型的挑戰"},{"start":3868.373,"end":3894.753,"text":"第三 我們未來的策略及精進作為 這裡我們提出了三點 第一點就是我們鏈結橋太山跟台灣的優勢加強佈局的韌性供應鏈面對全球地緣政治的挑戰風險以及關稅壁壘的以及極端氣候的多重挑戰供應鏈的重整已經成為產業策略佈局的重要課題各國積極建構韌性供應鏈所以我們台灣的"},{"start":3895.853,"end":3923.65,"text":"在橋友會我們也結合了國內的相關的部會來協助因應全球經貿趨勢以及產業發展的政策串聯海外橋待商與台灣各領域互補對接 緊密合作來拓展台灣與友好國家的多元合作網路壯大橋待商在各國的發展第二 我們強化培育青年世代後職新生代的有我力量海外的第二三代的專業青年"},{"start":3924.671,"end":3952.354,"text":"都是具有跨文化語言能力在地主流經驗跟國際化的專業成為僑界我們未來的新興的重要的力量所以本會將持續推動我們Move to Next Generation的政策透過交流培訓組織選拔輔導 見習 實習 國際參與等等方式來結合僑親的資源來提升他們的事業競爭力同時促進海內外跨域的交流合作"},{"start":3953.553,"end":3967.257,"text":"注意一方面注意商會僑團的永續傳承也拓展國際社會認識台灣的力量那第三我們要結合台商新興的投資佈局來拓展僑務工作觸角隨著國際情勢的變遷跟整個經產業的變動所以台灣的科技大廠"},{"start":3972.418,"end":3990.213,"text":"以及相關的供應商都紛紛前往東南亞中美洲 北美或印度等地投資佈局成為產業發展趨勢帶動新一波的台灣移民所以本會將持續透過五島新興地區的成立橋界的社群強化該地區的橋站商的聯繫並運用相關的橋區 橋屋的服務能量"},{"start":3995.217,"end":4011.659,"text":"結合當地或鄰近的僑務榮譽子僑團僑校以上位加速協助我們新進台商台籍員工以及建屬融入當地生活深化台資企業新移民跟僑社的連結協助他們茁壯發展成為台灣的延伸力量"},{"start":4013.37,"end":4038.948,"text":"台灣及橋台商在全球經貿發展以及國際供應鏈分工當中扮演幾足輕重的角色橋友會將持續強化橋務政策以及橋台商的聯繫服務工作引領全球橋台商與台灣各領域對接合作串聯海內外優勢帶動台灣產業走向國際促進投資攜手橋台商及台灣共創下一波橋台商及台灣經濟成長動向以上報告"},{"start":4041.71,"end":4044.531,"text":"敬請大院委員不吝指教及支持謝謝謝謝我們現在開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘主委臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":4073.815,"end":4074.979,"text":"謝謝召委有請委員長請委員長"},{"start":4083.26,"end":4108.845,"text":"羅委員長委員長 早 辛苦了本席最近有看了一些審計部的一些資料想要跟委員長來聊一聊我們埃喬卡審計部它的報告裡面有提到就是說截到今年的6月份埃喬卡發行了97,890張因為那是6月份的數據我想了解就是說今年已經是2025年的"},{"start":4110.365,"end":4113.887,"text":"最後一天這半年來我們這個i喬卡的這個發行量有沒有在增加有我們到這個禮拜為止呢已經接近12萬張了11萬6千將近7千張將近12萬張因為為什麼本席會這麼問是因為在去年的時候去年3月份的時候喬卡會的這個業務報告裡提到說三年內呢要衝20萬張的這個目標那其實"},{"start":4138.94,"end":4143.603,"text":"三年應該是指111年發行到現在的所謂的三年嗎還是說你從去年開始算起三年因為我不曉得這個目標只是從什麼時候來算起這個問題當時是因為楊瓊英委員關心所以他希望我們能夠多加努力"},{"start":4159.393,"end":4176.715,"text":"那我當時也有跟委員答應說我們盡量在三年內能夠充到二十萬張那事實上不是從因為111年是年底才開始的是九月份嘛對所以我們原則上是希望明年可以達到一樣二十萬張的目標"},{"start":4177.756,"end":4180.997,"text":"有信心嗎對當然有很大的挑戰不過我們事實上在愛喬卡已經沒有編列任何的行銷預算主要的還是只剩下這個網站很少很少的維運費而已那當時發行這個愛喬卡是把它從實體卡轉為數位卡的一個概念然後也希望說能夠擴大使用的一些範圍"},{"start":4205.062,"end":4229.175,"text":"那我們確實在這幾年當中也非常積極的在海外進行行銷那目前12萬張接近的這個數字並不是非常好但是我們也有非常的同仁非常的努力在沒有這個特殊預算的狀況下還是大家就各盡其職的在宣傳說愛喬卡的幾個功能除了我們"},{"start":4230.696,"end":4233.077,"text":"一些特約商店像在機場或者在海外的一些特約商店之外我們也跟國內的100多家醫療院所有簽了這個MOU希望說鼓勵我們的僑胞朋友呢可以"},{"start":4246.887,"end":4250.83,"text":"在健檢或者是說他在返國做一些醫療的時候他可以用我們的這個愛喬卡可以事先的預約括號那這樣會有助於他們安排一些他們的旅程那這個我也很謝謝我們這些醫療院所他們跟我們簽訂的這些MOU提供我們海外僑胞這樣的一個便利性"},{"start":4269.281,"end":4273.646,"text":"那除此之外愛喬卡確實有發揮一點功能是這幾年只要有愛喬卡的這個僑胞他們在辦理報名各項的業務的時候就會非常快速他只要填上他卡號他就不用再填其他資料馬上這個資料就可以匯進來"},{"start":4286.458,"end":4288.999,"text":"那所以我們透過這個愛喬卡提供各種的資訊讓主動的提供他們資訊讓他們知道說最新的一些政策是什麼還有僑務工作是什麼那這幾項功能呢這幾年還是持續的維持在這樣的一個運作狀態那也持續都還有僑胞每個禮拜一千多張的這個速度在辦所以"},{"start":4313.346,"end":4327.539,"text":"我們現在平均大概一年占到這個速度就是五萬五千張左右所以我當時會這樣子估算還是有一個基礎的是 所以現在愛喬卡其實本身就已經推展其實就不是那麼的順利再加上現在的這個因為宣傳費"},{"start":4331.022,"end":4334.767,"text":"是因為這個現在沒有著落我們現在是宣傳費現在是被卡的意思所以沒有辦法來做推廣我們也認為說愛喬卡這種它並不是類似像信用卡這樣的性質所以它本身一開始就是一個認同卡的概念而已"},{"start":4349.466,"end":4372.262,"text":"那是前委員長希望把他從這個實體轉為數位化我們才開始做這樣子的一個改變跟行銷不過既然已經辦了我們還是盡可能要讓他發揮最大的功能那當時也有答應就是說我們後面呢就只有維持一定的量能不再加碼也不再編列預算來執行擴大愛喬卡的業務"},{"start":4373.903,"end":4401.405,"text":"大致上是這樣因為在還有講到這個功能的部分剛剛委員長有提到其實愛喬卡其實不是只是一個很多人想說可能就是一個優惠卡實際上它是兼具了服務卡跟類似卡的這個功能像之前的話我一樣也是看到審計部的這個報告他有提到後面有做過這個訪談他說那雖然受訪的人數我看是不多啦就58位的受訪者可是呢愛喬卡的裡面有45位"},{"start":4404.087,"end":4414.175,"text":"58位這個台橋包其實裡面就有45位持有可是這45位只有20其實有23個人是還是沒有用過這個愛橋卡比如說我們有什麼的特約商店可以消費他們是沒有去消費那45個人當中又有41個人不知道愛橋卡"},{"start":4424.543,"end":4439.695,"text":"可以绑定像这个乔物电子报LINE官方账号等等也就是说其实有很多人其实他拥有这个爱乔卡可是他却不知道如何使用是不是连这个部分的话我们其实也要去做加强"},{"start":4440.796,"end":4453.082,"text":"對 我們在各種業務推動的時候每個現場我們大概都會做這個Banner應該說那個Banner就是萬年Banner我們都拿出來再解釋一下幫助一些可能比較年長的他們不太知道我們這麼多功能怎麼使用的人"},{"start":4457.444,"end":4473.867,"text":"那大部分如果是年輕人他們都比較知道怎麼使用這個數位卡的模式那因為各家的特約商店提供的一些優惠會一直改變的所以如果要知道最新的方案還是都需要去看我們的那個網站上面update的新資料那我們也都拜託同仁無論是在國內的或在海外的同仁"},{"start":4483.189,"end":4487.153,"text":"只要我們特約商店有什麼異動的時候都要隨時來聯絡讓我們可以更新我們的網站以便提供足夠的資訊那事實上以喬委會現在的狀況來說我們愛喬卡這個業務事實上是已經沒有在下個年度起就沒有編列業務費用"},{"start":4502.489,"end":4506.674,"text":"我們當初編連的預算其實是以20萬張作為目標當時並沒有定目標當時並沒有定目標以我們現在在海外的所謂台橋的人數來說208萬左右"},{"start":4521.972,"end":4537.618,"text":"那這個我們現在目前是發行接近12萬張那當時我會以20萬張當作一個這個target的概念是因為我認為說至少應該有十分之一的人要持有這個卡"},{"start":4538.158,"end":4542.499,"text":"那才會有相對比較好的運用意義所以以當時這個計劃來說最初最最初開始的時候並沒有設定一個人數的這個目標值直到委員來詢問的時候我們才提出說我們願意以這個10%的台橋人數來當作是一個目標來做這樣的努力"},{"start":4563.106,"end":4577.377,"text":"所以這邊說到年底為止有沒有將近12萬張的愛喬卡也就是說到明年為止我們就不再發新的卡出去的這個意思因為是數位的還是可以持續一直做可是就是沒有不會就是網站我們不再編列業務費的意思就是說沒有特別的行銷或promote的方法"},{"start":4581.92,"end":4610.159,"text":"要申請的話大家還是都可以照常就是不會像過去這樣子是很積極在推推展以前會有方案推推現在的話就是因為沒有編列預算我們沒有編列預算所以就沒有特殊方案推但是我們就是搭配我們業務有人來申請就就就合併這樣子可是就是說要怎麼使用的話可能這部分功能要做加強我們還是一樣加強用網站上面的一些行銷的模式減少這個預算的這個沒有的狀況之下的一種宣傳OK 了解好 以上謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":4612.921,"end":4613.881,"text":"謝謝接下來請沈伯陽委員上台質詢謝謝主席那這個請委員長很謝謝請委員長"},{"start":4641.474,"end":4669.741,"text":"三位委員長好 委員長好要不要先喘口氣 不好意思可以的 可以的 感謝您那這個就是因為這一次這個夜報裡面其實有提到就是要連結這個海外橋台商跟台灣產業的這個共同發展那裡面其實尤其是第一點就是說這一個加強這個台灣的優勢跟布局韌性的供應鏈因為現在有兩條軸線第一個軸線就是美國在主導的這一個所謂的非紅供應鏈"},{"start":4670.801,"end":4685.917,"text":"但另外一個就是我們台灣自己剛好也面對就是跟美國這個關稅現在也大概可能快要定案了那很多的這個在海外的這些商人我們的台商多少一定會有一些策略佈局的一些影響那不知道僑委會現在在這個連結這個台商跟我們的產業在這兩條軸線上面有什麼精進的一些作為"},{"start":4692.46,"end":4717.698,"text":"剛剛我們的報告當中當然是近年來因為這個國際局勢的劇烈變化所以產業的穩定安全性以及這種韌性的需求就隨著越來越受到重視那我們一方面也看到我們國內產業基於在拓展的過程當中要向海外去投資所以我們是利用在這一年多的時間裡面"},{"start":4719.219,"end":4722.4,"text":"鼓勵我們在海外的這些世界台商會的系統他們可以加強來辦理無論是他們的所在國或者是在台灣會先辦理一些這個這個講座座談那我們也會派國內的一些產學研的代表去擔任他們的講師然後跟他們形成座談這樣的模式那我自己親自去參加這些他們一年一度的理監事大會的時候"},{"start":4748.806,"end":4759.099,"text":"也都會安排類似的這種課程或是講座然後大家做一些交流跟這個對話那這樣的話我們可以掌握每一個地區或國家他們這個關稅發展趨勢或當地國的經濟模式那以便"},{"start":4766.088,"end":4769.23,"text":"輔導我們的廠商盡量的往一些更有韌性的方向去移動那也讓他們知道說其他國他們會採取什麼樣的對應措施甚至也積極的建議他們如何對當地國的政府去進行一些遊說的工作"},{"start":4784.878,"end":4812.888,"text":"那尤其我舉個例子來說我們在東南亞的這些台商來說他們有些比較早進軍第一波南向的時候已經都突破30年了那第二波雖然是在新南向政策不到10年的時間但是最近我們已經接受到非常多新的這個台商的反應就是表示說他們認為我們在第二波新南向的一個方向是很對他有利的他們現在大部分"},{"start":4813.989,"end":4817.051,"text":"企業規模越來越好的都會把接單研發跟設計把他總公司設在台灣那在他們所在的這個國家呢就當作是市場的這個規模有相當的基礎的他就把他設廠在當地而且就會分散投資的模式所以"},{"start":4834.745,"end":4853.822,"text":"即便是在東南亞國家有的會同時投資三國越南 馬來西亞 印尼那透過這種分散的投資模式他不會把所有的雞蛋都放在同一個籃子的模式其實是增加了他們的一些這個韌性那因為各國也有不同的這個關稅的這個結構那所以在這樣的狀況之下"},{"start":4858.006,"end":4860.707,"text":"不可諱言的現在東南亞有些傳統產業製造業他們也感受到一些新的壓力了因為有些國家是想要升級的所以他們的一些環保標準或者他們的法律規範都逐年在提升當中"},{"start":4875.157,"end":4881.904,"text":"尤其像以越南來說越南一直很想發展這個科技產業所以他已經大幅度的在往科技產業這個路徑在移動的時候他對傳統產業的要求就開始逐年在提升所以類似這樣的狀況我們當然有不少在海外的這種台商他也會感受到這種傳統產業"},{"start":4898.341,"end":4913.309,"text":"的壓力所以我們在輔導他的過程當中也有不斷提醒說要適度的用淨零碳排用自動化生產來進行升級那也看到不少例子已經確實往這個方向走而且有相當的成績那所以這個過程當中我們一方面是讓國內的產官學員來協輔我們海外的台商另外一方面呢"},{"start":4924.594,"end":4926.977,"text":"海外的台商呢他們也加強跟我們從國內出去海外投資的這些台灣的跨國廠商也開始產生多一點的對接然後彼此形成那個供應鏈的模式"},{"start":4939.651,"end":4945.633,"text":"那這個也是我們目前比較積極在努力的目標就是讓國內的企業對海外的投資的時候無論他去北美洲的美國或者是到東南亞的其他國家都能夠有一個比較好的基礎讓他的產業鏈比較安全那這個部分呢確實是這一年多來我們很加強在努力的目標"},{"start":4962.859,"end":4989.141,"text":"對 因為我覺得這很重要就是因為在幾年前我有在這個立陶宛那時候遇到你那時候我還沒有在立議院其實在那一個時候我們對立陶宛的投資就已經有這個雛形的存在那這個是對外就是說因為我們剛剛講到那時候在跟很多的這個台灣的這些商人在講說這個因為國際現在軍購案也特別多但台灣有時候我們自己的市場不夠大所以它如果只為了我們台灣自己的市場要去開模要幹嘛它不一定願意"},{"start":4989.801,"end":5014.207,"text":"大家如果跟海外的來做合作因為海外也有在這個市場它等於公司在這一邊然後在其他又跟比如說在跟捷克或是跟其他的國家的這一些廠商合作它也去吃海外的市場這個時候巧合會其實扮演非常重要的功能所以這個我是覺得說剛剛藉由這個機會因為葉報只能講一些比較抽象的東西但是剛剛幾個具體的例子我是覺得有必要讓國人知道但我現在想倒過來問就是說因為我們剛剛講的是我們對外"},{"start":5018.228,"end":5026.537,"text":"我們對內就是說我們有這一個我想問一下我們這一個這個防衛任性的我們之前問過了我想問這一個我們的產學攜手合作這個僑生專班就是說我們僑生專班現在一年收個這一個我們說我們一年可能有5000 6000人應該都有但因為"},{"start":5037.048,"end":5051.401,"text":"我看到這一個我們最右下角這一塊這個1130年度我們要增加招收服務類科的僑生因應需求但我們現在服務類科的只有600個名額因為我們畢竟台灣服務業也是"},{"start":5052.142,"end":5068.802,"text":"也是滿壯大的所以這一點是不是我可以跟國人說明就是說我們這一點是我們是因為跟其他的產業來做平衡我們有一個相關的一個這樣的一個政策還是說我們以後會針對服務業會稍微擴張還是我們會停留在這裡這個政策是不是我跟國人說明一下"},{"start":5068.902,"end":5088.848,"text":"是跟委員報告一下因為我們在111年 112年的時候在政策方向上一度有說停止招收服務那一科那後來經過我們積極在反映業界需求以後呢113年重新恢復所以這個600人是那一年恢復的時候的額度那事實上今年我們已經擴增到1750人了"},{"start":5091.109,"end":5096.711,"text":"那這樣合理多了合理多了已經比例達到21%對然後明年會持續到1900多人接近2000人所以這個人數我們還是有在放寬當中那就是說因應我們是滾動式的檢討因應著國內的各種人才的需求來做一些類科的分類招生那所以服務類科目前是從21%會到23%這樣子的一個比例來進行這個招募"},{"start":5120.377,"end":5143.242,"text":"OK那最後因為時間只剩一點點我還是想問一下因為我們這個總預算一直沒有審所以就是行星計畫還有像這一個延續性計畫會受到影響那我稍微看了一下就是跟喬爾會有關的雖然現在預算就沒辦法審但我們還是很認真在看這個預算就是說看來這個延續性的計畫其中這個回國升學這個部分影響的數額我看滿大的看起來有3億多"},{"start":5147.143,"end":5159.585,"text":"確實我們如果是延續性的這種預算還是可以在前半段先執行但是下學期比方說我們僑生馬上3月份開始他們的這個學費呢我們要全額去補助的時候我們確實因為這個預算還沒有全額通過"},{"start":5170.808,"end":5185.377,"text":"那所以我們今年跟去年有一個差別應該說今年114跟明年115有個差別是過往我們的學費當中呢三分之二是我們編列預算三分之一是由"},{"start":5186.67,"end":5212.326,"text":"教育部來編列預算一起支應那我們當時已經答應說我們從明年開始我們就要全部支應那所以這個預算都會增加不少那所以我們如果下學期開始我們要全額支應的時候我們是可以先把下半年的錢偷來上半年用暫時支應沒錯但是終究我們因為學生人數的增加我們一定會遇到很大困難"},{"start":5212.746,"end":5231.007,"text":"這個下半年就會受到影響因為它也包含健保包含學習付出金這個都包含在裡面我們一定都會受到影響因為我們因為這個量體一方面是擴大再來是金額的增加的數額所以我們如果說只運用今年的額度那過了上半學期之後確實一定是會不夠的"},{"start":5232.248,"end":5236.972,"text":"那這個當然是我們的這個希望說國會還是可以盡速來通過我們的這個115年度的預算案讓我們無論上學期或下學期都可以如期的來運作而且回到剛剛前面如果說我們在海外針對這些台商要去做一些輔助的時候這一個海外信用保證基金應該也算很重要這也是個新興計畫"},{"start":5254.066,"end":5283.056,"text":"對 我們107年開始就已經說已經通過行政院的這個增資計畫多20億結果這8年來的都就是因為要有民間4成公務基金才能補助6成那我們前幾年因為疫情狀況都很不穩定的時候其實所有的台灣行庫幾乎就沒有再捐錢了直到今年我覺得這樣子不是個辦法所以又再度的走訪所有的銀行"},{"start":5283.616,"end":5306.97,"text":"那所有的公司銀行大家都很幫忙所以我們今年已經確定又募到了一筆款所以我們才對等編列這個公務款項那為什麼今年會這麼急的原因是因為今年對等關稅要實施很多人需要資金的流通所以我們希望把這個基金規模趕快到位這樣我受信額度就提高那我今年9月已經公布說我要從200萬"},{"start":5308.411,"end":5326.958,"text":"美金的額度要提高到300萬美金的額度所以我一定要努力的把我這個基金的規模可以做到30億那目前我只有22億而已對好 這個確實影響很大那因為時間的因素我其他的就可能在下次有機會的時候我再來問好 謝謝委員長謝謝沈委員謝謝主席好 謝謝接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":5343.476,"end":5346.582,"text":"好 謝謝召委 有請我們委員長請委員長好 委員長早 還好吧陳委員早安"},{"start":5353.234,"end":5375.691,"text":"好 那我想就這個僑民的異難這個新制上路後的執行狀況跟委員長您做一個討論那先前有其他的委員也曾經跟您詢問過為了讓不同身份的異難在伏兵役的義務更加公平也避免這個假僑民徵逃兵的狀況"},{"start":5376.812,"end":5405.371,"text":"有關僑民一覽的這個新規定從9月8號開始實施到現在已經超過三個月了包括新制的申請流程和所需的這個文件或是出境後四個月內要補交相關的文件等配套措施那實際上它的操作方式以及審核的這個期程會不會過於冗長那這些複雜的手續和不確定性可能都會造成年輕僑民不安"},{"start":5406.071,"end":5430.013,"text":"進而減少他們回到台灣的意願也由於這個政策上路時較為倉促引發僑民很多的疑慮這個新的政策雖然有我們僑委會整理好的懶人包協助理解但是對於中文程度相對弱勢的僑民來說可能還是不好理解"},{"start":5430.493,"end":5443.25,"text":"甚至在這個申請出境文件審查的這個平台上也是以中文為主那這個部分是不是有我們僑委會擬定什麼樣的一個改善的一個空間 有沒有"},{"start":5444.315,"end":5463.784,"text":"謝謝陳委員的關心事實上我們在11月開始我們就已經製作所有英文版的懶人包以及所有的表格文件資料我們林貴的辦理也都有中英文的協助所以如果不是華語程度很好的人"},{"start":5464.364,"end":5467.387,"text":"來一樣可以沒有溝通障礙我們會用英文跟他們協助這是第一點那第二點我們也在這將近三個多月的時間當中逐步的觀察就是謝謝很多"},{"start":5480.758,"end":5499.643,"text":"海外僑民還是願意配合我們這些相關的政策隨著第一個月確實有很多因為心智上路的不熟悉不了解或者是沒有資訊造成很多錯誤的理解隨著我們在這兩個月當中密集的去做很多溝通跟宣傳以後"},{"start":5500.623,"end":5519.049,"text":"那現在各種負面不理解的錯誤資訊呢就下降很多然後來辦理的速度也快很多那我們也要一次持續的動態檢討就是說看明年度開始我們可不可以做一些改變首先第一個改變是我們明年1月2號起我們會增加多一個據點在高雄就是所有的跟我們"},{"start":5528.073,"end":5538.54,"text":"僑委會有關的證件的辦理呢在高雄也可以遞件當然就包括華僑議政用的華僑身份證明書那我們也是有鑑於說僑民一覽會返國最多的人數呢大約都會是落在農曆年前的這個半個月當中所以我們就明年的1月下旬開始我們會更加強做這一方面的這個協助所以我們"},{"start":5555.211,"end":5559.195,"text":"現在是北高兩點那如果高雄這個據點的量也有相當的幅度我們也在預算允許的狀況下我們願意再評估中部地區是不是再多增設一個點這樣子不過跟委員說明是因為我們每多增設一個點我們的人力的成本跟我們的負擔確實都是相當大"},{"start":5577.575,"end":5581.617,"text":"那在我們沒有增加新的預算結構之下我們現在其實都是雲芝我們原來既有的人力拜託同仁辛苦一點我們多派一位同仁下去做這樣子的業務而且我們也拜託我們在南部辦公室"},{"start":5593.843,"end":5598.105,"text":"特別給我們一個空間來提供我們做這樣的變名服務那所幸我們行政院南部辦公室也都給我們很好的協助所以我們明年1月2號開始呢也就是這個禮拜五我們就開始啟用我們的南部辦公室讓他們可以來遞送案件那除此之外我們也考慮到在下個年度我們議政用的這個華僑身份證明書我們也要把它改為"},{"start":5623.315,"end":5630.821,"text":"可以用數位的領取方式那這樣就更便利我們這些僑民就是說他來送件的時候是因為護照無論是中華民國護照或他國護照我們還是要驗證正本那但是之後的他就不用他可以就離開送完件就可以離開我們在審核半天之後可以用數位版的模式傳給他"},{"start":5646.414,"end":5649.616,"text":"那這個數位版會有我們的數位認證計畫讓議政司讓移民署他們都可以追蹤這個我們的數位編號所以這個也會有助於讓我們的這個申請者呢更加的便利也節省時間好好委員長剛剛您說就是我們會增加一個高雄的據點是那"},{"start":5670.325,"end":5695.936,"text":"後續可能還會沿你中部的一個據點可是我好像沒有看到沒有聽到你說東部的據點這個有沒有可能委員我們會評估就是說我們移民的人數的分佈當然如果說我們預算夠充足我們當然希望北中南東都各有一個據點來方便就近服務這個是我們當然長遠來想我們希望這樣做這部分要拜託委員長"},{"start":5697.096,"end":5723.852,"text":"對所以我也希望說就我現在先以拓一點高雄的據點南部來先試試看一年的這個辦理有多少案件量那如果案件量有相當的比例我們就會繼續擴增到中部那中部也有大的飽和量我們也會持續思考是不是再進行到東部所以我們是一點一點穩健的來擴增那因為也是有鑑於國家預算整體是有限的所以我們"},{"start":5724.852,"end":5748.838,"text":"總是在思考說怎麼樣一方面能變名然後一方面能提高我們的這個服務效率再加上說我們的預算不用花費很多那針對這個華僑身份證明書的有效期目前是只有一年那有些僑民他們常常在反映他們回來的回國的次數也不是很多是不是在這個證明書的有效期有沒有可能做"},{"start":5749.458,"end":5752.22,"text":"這個延長的調整這個我們可能還要再研究法規因為這個是跟法規綁在一起的目前我們的華僑身份證明書是本來都是提供給一些僑胞他們要返國去做財產繼承土地買賣或是投資去給其他各部會驗證用的所以我們其實都是比照國內的這個相關證件的邏輯你看一般互證事務所是以半年為效期就你申請這案件到你辦這個文件"},{"start":5778.613,"end":5794.004,"text":"只有半年效期那我們是以說因為在海外所以我們是一年效期那所以因為每一個人都是在變動中的狀態他可能今年是在這個國家明年可能換到另外一個國家所以如果我們現在提供過長其實也不一定是一個合理的狀態"},{"start":5795.925,"end":5816.95,"text":"再來是對於這個出境時候需要上傳可證明的四個月內居住於僑居地的這個文件這個部分那我想因為這個部分有一些僑居地實際生活地的這個與實際生活地的不同的僑民會因為在取得這個證明文件上的一個困難"},{"start":5818.251,"end":5834.629,"text":"比如說他是在亞洲工作可是在亞洲工作或是在這裡讀書或是在這裡旅行可是他實際居住地是在美國那你為了要取得這個證明文件他還得飛往美國去取得證明文件之後再飛回我們台灣"},{"start":5835.37,"end":5852.886,"text":"那針對這個部分我們有沒有可能有一個調整或是變動的一個方式有 我們也在評估當中看怎麼樣事實上其實是這樣四個月是往前推也往後推就是說它四個月內所以你一年當中有八個月的時間你至少有機會回去一次你的僑居地嘛"},{"start":5853.806,"end":5879.857,"text":"只要你在那一次有進去無論是你的護照上面有蓋一個章或者是你有一張這個入出境的這個boarding pass任何其實都可以當作一個證明書所以不必然就是說比方說你回來時間是4月那你往前推就是前一年的12月開始的資料你都可以去看哪一次你有進入到你原來就是你持有來申請文件的那個國"},{"start":5881.137,"end":5907.425,"text":"的護照或是永久居留證或是你四月之後的四個月一直到七月底你也可以去看你有沒有回到你自己的那個護照國的那個地點這個八個月的談信息其實是有的現在是因為大家還不了解這個談信息的概念那同時也可能不知道這個文件哪些東西是算有效跟無效那我們會加強再進一步宣導讓大家多了解"},{"start":5907.785,"end":5927.592,"text":"好 那就針對這個部分我想還是請我們僑委會能夠對於在整個流程或是審查的過程裡面能夠更加的便民避免讓民眾認為說我們好像是在這個刻意提高相關的審查門檻要來讓民眾不方便"},{"start":5929.032,"end":5949.596,"text":"門檻確實是有提高一些但是為了預防這個有弊端所以造成有一些人變成成本要提高這個是當然是很不得已的我們也是擔心說我們把門檻提高反而讓僑民認為我們好像是要讓他們越離我們越離越遠其實並沒有並沒有並沒有好 以上謝謝陳委員好 謝謝"},{"start":5956.304,"end":5962.387,"text":"接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢你好我們請委員長請委員長陳委員長安"},{"start":5981.431,"end":6000.021,"text":"委員長早安委員長我們先肯定這個僑委會在海外經貿巡迴活動中看到一些新式的課程包含那路AI的應用內容那我認為這個是對協助這些僑報理解對經營決策有幫助那用科技助商這個方向是正確的"},{"start":6001.722,"end":6014.311,"text":"我想进一步谈的是说AI课程是不是未来不要留在单场的讲座那是变成一种系统性的赔利甚至是把国内的厂商带出国的合作"},{"start":6016.522,"end":6032.441,"text":"謝謝陳委員的這個關心確實我們有這個想法所以我們今年規劃的時候有把明年115年新的這個一些巡迴的講座以及我們歷來有一些觀摩團或者是研習營"},{"start":6033.662,"end":6038.264,"text":"會把它以AI作為主題納入那畢竟未來的這個全球化發展當中AI確實是在經濟頂域裡面非常重要的一股動能所以我們也要協服這個海外的橋台商"},{"start":6050.33,"end":6068.983,"text":"回来台湾了解台湾的AI发展的趋势跟优势是什么以便他也可以带出去他所居住的国家在当地的发展投资上面可以去做衔接这个计划我们桥商处目前确实有规划当中"},{"start":6069.653,"end":6080.026,"text":"那我目前看到主要是集中在馬來西亞跟新加坡總共是馬來西亞4場新加坡1場那未來有沒有擴及其他國家甚至是歐美僑區的規劃"},{"start":6082.09,"end":6095.9,"text":"有的 我們明年也會到越南 泰國 菲律賓事實上包括北美洲 美洲縣不管是北美洲或中南美就是我們僑胞比較聚集的 僑商比較多的區我們也都會輔助或鼓勵他們"},{"start":6102.144,"end":6107.747,"text":"來跟當地有這些的這種商業機制的AI產業去進行交流或者是做一些座談對話那以便彼此知道說不同國之間他們的一些規範是什麼然後也把我們國內AI的專家希望能夠邀請出去讓他們在國際做一些巡迴的講座那事實上去年如果我沒有記錯就是不是去年 今年五月"},{"start":6130.197,"end":6133.781,"text":"今年五月的歐洲歐總的時候呢在葡萄牙當時我們就已經有派這個我們國內的駐位的這個專家呢去到葡萄牙那麼跟葡萄牙當地政府的這個官方代表"},{"start":6145.194,"end":6150.438,"text":"也辦了一個座談那這個論壇也滿滿成功的就是拉近了彼此之間的這個合作那過去我們對葡萄牙沒有那麼熟悉事實上葡萄牙的新創產業也是非常強的那人口雖然不是很多但是他們很重國家很重視這個新創產業這一部分所以因為今年五月在葡萄牙辦的這個歐總幫助我們了解了我們帶了這個"},{"start":6172.312,"end":6176.454,"text":"這個歐洲其他20幾個國家的台商就去到這個葡萄牙的時候做了一場這樣子的活動那未來類似的活動我們也會持續辦在六大洲馬上3月就會有世界台商總會在澳洲的雪梨所以在澳洲雪梨的時候我們也是會搭配類似尤其這一次我們的市總總會長本身就是在做這個數位產業的"},{"start":6198.562,"end":6224.961,"text":"那他已经在去年上市柜在澳洲那我们认为说这样的发展趋势他也善用台湾的AI优势希望能够带到不同的市场谢谢委员长那委员长另外针对另外一个跟媒体比较相关的就是海外华文媒体的报道大奖那教育会他是持续会举办相关的这种奖项那有新增短言音的奖项是Yes Taiwan"},{"start":6225.501,"end":6252.713,"text":"所以要吸引更多年輕族群跟其他的華文工作者來去參與我認為它當然是有效可以增加我們的報導台灣的力量讓其他僑胞可以在國際舞台上替我們台灣發聲但是如何確保說我們這個是宣傳方式符合民主社會的新聞自由的精神我想我們可以來討論一下因為2001年的時候陳水扁總統他"},{"start":6253.453,"end":6268.845,"text":"所以這邊的政府他是決定要廢除這些官方的新聞獎他是用成立卓越新聞獎的基金會由民間企業來去支持來去確保新聞跟獎項的公正性跟媒體的獨立性然後講這麼多的意思是說有些資源我們是不是可以"},{"start":6269.525,"end":6293.555,"text":"讨论是不是能让更多的与其说是我们设奖项由政府去颁发新闻奖项会不会有的时候像外交部来邀请更多的这种海外的这种媒体人士来访问让他们自由去做判断会不会这样的资源的配置会比较有效益而且又符合我们这一个国家的民主社会的特性"},{"start":6295.41,"end":6303.674,"text":"確實陳委員講的我也非常同意我們之所以辦理這個海外華文媒體報導大獎的原因是"},{"start":6306.277,"end":6325.695,"text":"因為海外的華文媒體一直在萎縮當中除了他一直萎縮最重要的因素也是全球化的這個新興社群媒體的崛起使得傳統的華文媒體的空間事實上是越來越小那加上中共在"},{"start":6326.656,"end":6330.718,"text":"海外對於各種華文媒體的威脅或者是收買的狀況越行惡化所以我們為了要鼓勵海外這些華文媒體仍然能夠保有自己獨立寫作新聞報導自由的這種發展因此才在2001年的時候"},{"start":6351.79,"end":6369.66,"text":"2021年的時候首度的舉辦了這個海外華文媒體報導大獎那截至目前為止事實上海外媒體都希望我們要持續辦下去雖然我們預算很少所以我們給他的獎金也是很少但是這種鼓勵的意義跟性質事實上是相對的大"},{"start":6370.62,"end":6386.221,"text":"那除此之外我們因為媒體報導大獎改為本來是一年一次後來改為兩年一次的隔年的原因就是說我們希望一年是用他們來參訪的模式所以確實我們是一年安排海外的華文媒體"},{"start":6387.102,"end":6390.105,"text":"他們在台灣進行一些媒體的參訪報或者說是交流透過這樣子的模式來幫助彼此之間了解媒體的生態以及產業的發展的趨勢所以"},{"start":6404.501,"end":6414.716,"text":"過去在海外的這些華文媒體比較是傳統的紙媒或者是頂多就是網路媒體所以還有少部分的廣播跟應該說是"},{"start":6422.306,"end":6444.321,"text":"電視所以我們這幾年隨著也安排他們在台灣做參訪他們發現說我們在這方面的進步性確實是在國際上排名很前面的所以我們也呈現出來台灣在新聞自由度跟相關的出版言論自由度都是他們認為很肯定的地方所以我們是一年以頒獎這樣獎項為鼓勵另外一年就是用參訪的模式如同剛剛委員所關注的這樣"},{"start":6451.185,"end":6460.847,"text":"好 謝謝委員長謝謝 謝謝陳委員好 謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請徐委員長請委員長"},{"start":6482.287,"end":6506.987,"text":"林委員長委員長好一切都好嗎我很好我們來看一個我想這個部分其實我已經在發現的時候就跟僑委會聯絡過了那麼也了解了過程但是我認為還是有必要提出來質詢那是因為我們來看喔這個在台灣國內當然面對這種所謂錯假訊息假帳號的狀況其實國人是非常了解的"},{"start":6507.327,"end":6516.615,"text":"但是到了海外之後我認為其實很多海外的朋友可能也不知道當我第一時間看到這個所謂鴻門志工總堂的時候我感到非常的驚訝因為在僑界我想委員長也知道這個志工堂是一個在僑界非常有威望而且有影響力的一個所謂華僑組織喔"},{"start":6529.767,"end":6545.812,"text":"但是他們居然會發布這樣的一個訊息要求要提供所謂軍人的照片來反戰那麼我想第一時間我也就覺得非常的奇怪那麼僑委會在查證之後的過程是不是發現這是一個假的帳號那麼這樣的狀況多嗎還是說這只是一個單純的偶發事件因為"},{"start":6552.074,"end":6555.077,"text":"通常詐騙放在網路上說實話這種假的帳號假的訊息都是為了詐騙啦就是為了騙財但是他居然要求的是一個要軍裝的照片這背後就讓人覺得似乎不單純"},{"start":6568.849,"end":6585.343,"text":"尤其是搭配這幾天剛好有這個中國的不正義軍演那麼整體來說會覺得是不是中國在形塑這個所謂文攻武嚇甚至於在僑界也發動了這樣的一個所謂認知作戰"},{"start":6587.824,"end":6602.257,"text":"謝謝林委員的垂詢我的了解無煙消的戰爭是不斷的持續著早就開打但是這種我先講鴻門志工堂是一個反共的組織"},{"start":6603.618,"end":6628.552,"text":"他們長期是以美國作為他們發展的這個主要的國度那已經有150年的歷史了但是我這幾年也發現就是說鴻門志工堂事實上在美國以外的地區在中國及台灣都還有一樣在設立可是其實是完全是同樣名稱但是完全不同的組織因為他所登記的地點是不一樣的國度"},{"start":6631.474,"end":6645.954,"text":"所以鴻門志工堂在美國他們是在當地有登記的社團組織那可是這個在海外其他沒有登記的國家呢就有另外的由中共扶植的單位在登記這個組織所以會造成這個混淆"},{"start":6648.697,"end":6665.953,"text":"借名借殼上市的味道因為像我現在找到的這個它甚至於是中國的信箱所以言下之意就是把人家的名字拿來用然後企圖榆木混珠其實就是這樣如果我們都知道說現在是大家智慧財產權跟商標權很重視的一個時代"},{"start":6669.216,"end":6692.626,"text":"那如果你沒有在該國有這個登記其他人就可以把你登記去登記完以後這個就變成是他可以用的了所以真正的原來的鴻門志工堂他現在就不能在台灣登記他也不能在中國登記因為這個名字被其他的人拿去登記了那事實上他們是完全不同的組織所以乍看之下很多人都不理解說這個鴻門志工堂不是反共的嗎怎麼會做出這種動作呢"},{"start":6695.327,"end":6710.366,"text":"那至今呢在美國的鴻門志工堂還是堅定支持中華民國台灣的自由民主那對於這個錯假帳號的狀況事實上這個在我看來就是在中國登記的這個鴻門志工堂他們最早是從香港開始的"},{"start":6712.047,"end":6717.17,"text":"那他們登記之後當然他們我不知道這個是他們刻意要去影響這個做統戰的一種策略或者亦或是在幫中共收集什麼樣的情資所以不單純只是假帳號的概念而已事實上是遺用別人的名稱在不同國度登記之後然後來進行相關的工作那因為鴻門志工堂的人是這樣他們也真的很有情有義的"},{"start":6740.74,"end":6745.324,"text":"早期很多人就是說為了保護鄉里或者自己在這個Trinatown裡面做生意的安全治安問題因此他們去成立了鴻門志工是為了維護當地的治安需求結果沒想到經過這一百多年的歷史演變現在變成在中國的地區呢甚至在台灣呢也有登記那這個社團呢變成是"},{"start":6765.562,"end":6791.502,"text":"中共的某種統戰的組織之一了所以對於他們做出這種做法來騙取穿軍服的人我覺得確實是非常不單純的一個做法那當然我們一方面除了要了解說是不是有錯假訊息另外一方面我們當然也基於保護國人的安全跟個資的問題我們一定會努力的跟大家來說明說個人的這個資料還是"},{"start":6795.004,"end":6818.092,"text":"可能的不要隨便提供給他人因為這個在僑界當中一定會有許多人誤會尤其是他所要求的不單純他要我的竟然是著軍裝那麼言下之意他就是要求可能我們的國軍弟兄那麼像這樣的一個運用就是其實已經是進入了就你講的吳妍瀟的作戰那麼也是認知作戰的一環"},{"start":6818.712,"end":6823.837,"text":"那麼在這個部分喬介有沒有發散或者是當遇到類似這種所謂的藉口然後上市甚至於以一種以假亂真的方式在進行協助中國做統戰的時候那麼我們在喬介的部分訊息的澄清或者是訊息的了解的擴散有沒有這樣的一個組織性或者是說我們有這樣的一個SOP來做處理呢"},{"start":6845.456,"end":6850.478,"text":"有 我們對於這種錯假訊息或者是認知作戰過去這兩年確實有強化提供我們同仁訓練同時也要求同仁在最短時間內要把一些資訊就散到我們僑界的各種群組裡面來提醒那目前這一個以這個案例來講委員所提供的這個案例並沒有到美國去看起來它是鎖定在台灣而已"},{"start":6875.367,"end":6879.869,"text":"所以他等於是一種所謂外銷轉內銷直接他其實想要詐騙的反而是國內甚至於我們的國軍同胞是尤其是退伍軍人因為退伍軍人他們過去在服役的時候還是有一些同袍或者上司或者有一些關係那他們希望透過這種關係的建立來達到什麼樣的一個目的我們不知道但是確實以特定的人士"},{"start":6904.942,"end":6911.086,"text":"著軍裝這樣子的一個徵尋照片的做法確實是有很大的這個問題存在不過這個目前沒有在我們海外的僑社產生什麼影響反而我這個拿去跟我們舊金山的總堂確認的時候他們還很吃驚說怎麼會有這種東西百分百不是他們的他們早就沒有不可能做這種事情而且這個事情做出來對他講沒有意義"},{"start":6930.959,"end":6937,"text":"沒有意義 真的沒有意義那可見得就是我後來也去了解就是說這個基本上是"},{"start":6938.258,"end":6944.504,"text":"掛的好像是美國舊金山這個什麼什麼什麼事實上就是他其實是假的他是要騙國內不知情的第三者在這個過程當中會不會因著這個獎金或者說因為他是海外的然後取得信任以至於他就去參加了這個活動那這種的話我想他都是一種惡意的做法因為我們已經有跟總堂確實"},{"start":6964.12,"end":6983.365,"text":"認證過這件事情而且這個其實就是一種想要以假亂真甚至於就像剛剛這個您所提到的他希望營造說原來這樣的一個堅定反共的社團其實現在也不反共了甚至於要要求和平那麼好那謝謝這個徐委員長的回覆那麼謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝接下來請盧憲一委員上台質詢"},{"start":7000.577,"end":7000.899,"text":"有請委員長請委員長"},{"start":7008.582,"end":7036.47,"text":"盧委員早安委員長你好今天最主要是有三個問題要問你那我剛看了這個專案報告書裡面我們說特別在台灣在高科技半導體資訊跟醫療生技方面沒有提到的是我們的農業那我想說最近我們跟工研院跟技術師在我們雲鄉地區有做一些智慧農業的部分比如說導入了一些智慧的灌溉系統比如說我們的段木香菇用機械化"},{"start":7037.711,"end":7047.404,"text":"類似半自動這樣的一個科技在裡面我想說我們跟台紐、台澳這個比較重視農業的國家還有加拿大是不是有可能把我們的智慧農業傳遞到那邊去"},{"start":7049.932,"end":7054.455,"text":"謝謝盧委員的關心確實我們在2021年2022年的時候我們確實有把台灣的智慧農業介紹給我們海外的橋台商因此就有我們成立了兩個觀摩團跟研習班其中一個比方說在剛剛你提到的加拿大我們有一位在加拿大做農業非常成功的一個案例他因為回來台灣"},{"start":7080.013,"end":7104.625,"text":"參加了我們這個農業觀摩團以後因此他就積極的把台灣的這個系統就引去引到加拿大去發展那使得他的這個事業規模也越做越好那所以我們確實這幾年在對加拿大或者是紐西蘭澳洲這幾個特別重視原住民的政策的國家呢我們也都有配套的在"},{"start":7105.185,"end":7126.858,"text":"鼓勵大家說有沒有可能繼續往這個方向提到這個部分是希望能夠藉由我們僑委會這邊能夠媒合我們比較優秀的我們的原住民的農業青年能夠去那邊比如說就業啦或者是一些技術的一個轉移或者是指導要參與那方面那邊的一個產業的活動第二個就是我們的智慧醫療的部分"},{"start":7127.338,"end":7131.46,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們明年2026年的9月份我們會再辦理一班叫做智慧農業研習班那屆時如果說我們有原住民的一些青農他們有一些好的這個發展的我們也會去跟他們做交流或者邀請他們來參加這個研習班來做分享這個是我們可以安排的麻煩委員到時候再推薦給我們"},{"start":7153.592,"end":7178.589,"text":"我們原民會來一起討論好的那2024年我有參加在澳洲舉行的一個所謂的Pride Act也就是我們泛太平洋地區的一個醫學的醫護人員的一個探討會那這2026年他會在台灣舉辦那是在這次是北伊來主導那我希望就是說我們的南島與西國家比如說我們這次的比較"},{"start":7180.39,"end":7207.031,"text":"在裡面比如夏威夷 我們的帛琉還有馬紹爾這些國家這是我們的邦交國的話我希望這些我們南島語系的國家可以去推廣他們來參加這樣的一個會議因為這個我們雖然可能僑胞不多可是藉由我們的智慧醫療或者是說我們因為基因的關係可能疾病類型會相同所以就這方面的努力我想說應該是多來促進我們"},{"start":7208.772,"end":7213.775,"text":"各個南島有區國家的一個所謂的醫療的一個會議謝謝盧委員的這個關心我們會請外交部跟我會轉達給外交部跟我們衛福部在明年2026年的這個大會裡面"},{"start":7225.503,"end":7227.744,"text":"能夠協助邀請讓我們的三個邦交國Massoud 群島 Plough還有就是夏威夷以及 Tuvalu就是我們南島語系國家其實這個也沒有設限一定要是邦交國"},{"start":7249.878,"end":7264.605,"text":"那我們還是會把訊息跟外交部還有就是衛福部來提供因為我們確實在這幾個國家裡面只有在PLAOPLAO是稍微有一點點僑民其他幾國幾乎沒有僑民"},{"start":7266.926,"end":7295.461,"text":"好 那最後一個問題就是關於我們COP30剛剛結束在巴西貝倫舉行的一個熱帶氣候會議那有一個這個永續的基金它計畫募集大概1250億美金的這個規模那德國已經首先響應說捐了10億美金那我想說我們的綠領人才我們的探足機 探會這些我們可能還在開始那我們確實這個部分是跟原住民的議題是非常相關的"},{"start":7296.181,"end":7311.927,"text":"所以以後在有這方面的一些國際性的一些探討或者是培養人才的時候也希望能夠加上我們原住民的一個參與好的跟盧委員報告今年的在巴西北部的巴倫舉行這個氣候峰會就是說中華民國台灣還是有派我們部會首長去參加那基本上這個權責單位是在環境部"},{"start":7321.67,"end":7330.573,"text":"所以彭部長這邊這個相關訊息我們也會來提供給他希望說未來在原鄉地區的這個專業人才我們可以多邀請一起來關注我們的這個相關的環境的這個維護跟發展好 謝謝謝謝陸委員好 謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":7355.717,"end":7381.398,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩委員長前委員長王委員早安 委員長老趙 你今天比較辛苦一點不會不會好 那個我第一個問題是跟中國剛執行的不正義沒有使命的軍演有關係啦 他們很會取名字就是拿軍事力量威脅別的國家叫做"},{"start":7382.279,"end":7411.158,"text":"正義使命這個就是黑白顛倒獎但是合謀是他們的權利那中國軍事常態化在台灣周邊在日本旁邊在渤海灣黃海韓國旁邊南海菲律賓旁邊甚至於今年二月份跑到澳洲的外海進行實彈軍演所以中國這種軍演威脅區域和平穩定台灣當然首當其衝但台灣絕對不是唯一啦那這跟你們僑委會有什麼關係呢"},{"start":7412.439,"end":7435.309,"text":"我要請教就是說我們海外的僑界支持中華民國台灣的僑界或者過去傳統像蝶敏月那邊有一些反共的僑界對於這些軍演我們僑委會有做了哪些努力或者有哪些聲音以國際盟友來講縱使沒有正式的邦交關係歐盟歐盟發表的談話叫做"},{"start":7436.529,"end":7457.65,"text":"中國軍演加劇了這個區域的緊張危及了國際的和平穩定歐盟還說歐盟的發言人正式出來說台海是一個非常重要地方牽涉到國際的安全跟繁榮的戰略重要性這個是歐盟那我再舉個例子英國外相說"},{"start":7459.412,"end":7485.49,"text":"反對 他一樣 他認為中國的軍演影響到區域的和平穩定反對這種片面的去影響現狀影響和平穩定的一些作為呼籲用對話來取代軍演日本 日本直接透過共同社表達他們外交單位有向中國表達中國軍演對這個區域形成區域緊張的影響"},{"start":7486.86,"end":7502.475,"text":"那川普總統呢很有意思川普總統他直接講中國不敢啦中國不敢啦不會啦他的口氣也是 我沒辦法模仿他啦那美國的台灣連線的主席這Craig"},{"start":7503.581,"end":7532.024,"text":"他表達說中國這個軍演影響了區域的和平穩定他們給予譴責並且呼籲加速提供台灣必要的自衛能力另外共和黨的軍事委員會在軍事委員會的主席Wicker他訪問過台灣Wicker也表達了跟台灣連線共同的看法我還可以念法國的啦菲律賓都有啦這些聲明有一個共同的特色就是"},{"start":7532.928,"end":7560.736,"text":"誰在鬧事 中國它所有的共同特色就是中國的軍演破壞了這個區域的和平穩定製造了區域的緊張呼籲什麼呼籲中國不要單方面改變和平現狀不要單方面改變海峽現狀這大概就是共同的政治的呼籲那我比較遺憾的台灣竟然有在台灣的政黨直接是講是台灣犯錯所以中國才軍演"},{"start":7561.596,"end":7588.049,"text":"那個軍演要準備數週數月的沒有一件事情隔夜就能軍演的那給合理化威脅者合理化他的藉口然後對內部呢拿著中共的槍桿子對內部進行威脅什麼可以主張什麼不能主張這個是政治問題你當政務官不適合回答我現在要問的就是各國的國際盟友都在"},{"start":7589.608,"end":7604.308,"text":"指著中國說你製造區域緊張希望和平穩定而破壞和平穩定的是中國就目前僑委會我不知道你們這幾天有沒有聯絡全球的僑界目前僑界支持中華民國台灣的僑界的聲音是什麼"},{"start":7605.146,"end":7633.267,"text":"第一個我們當然把這個重大訊息讓我們180位在海外的僑務委員要優先知道這個事情那由於我們今年的僑務委員會議已經在進行全社會防衛任性的一個演練所以台灣任何的這個無論是天災或是有任何的緊急事故的變動那我們海外的僑界呢都是24小時密切"},{"start":7633.587,"end":7649.978,"text":"那僑界有沒有聲音有沒有組織化的聲音因為他們都在各僑局國嘛他們當地國的政治領袖都在譴責這樣的軍演聲援和平穩定聲援台灣那我們的僑界有沒有比較具體的聲音出來"},{"start":7651.699,"end":7677.297,"text":"目前僑界當然僑務委員他們是彼此都在互相的聯繫然後討論或者是去表達這個給他們在地的國會議員希望能夠大家維持兩岸的這個區域穩定跟和平的狀態但是沒有僑界具體的活動我更具體來講我們僑委會每年我們編這些預算在服務僑界"},{"start":7678.318,"end":7694.389,"text":"在國家面對威脅的時候僑會應該更進一步我們透過僑界的影響力去影響當地的國會議員地方政要該國對台灣對中華民國給予更大的支援這個是我剛才講的是收集有沒有相關的訊息"},{"start":7694.989,"end":7710.398,"text":"我現在更進一步我們能不能讓僑界在對他自己的故國台灣做多一點的貢獻那對於有一些他根本不是我們國家的人我講的滇緬月僑他們是長期反共支持中華民國的可以發揮他的影響力你們目前有沒有這個工作的計畫"},{"start":7711.863,"end":7733.118,"text":"我們是希望未來要朝向這個方向沒有錯就是所以是為什麼我們今年開始做這個防衛任性的演練也就是說讓海外的僑界可以做跨國性的跨區域的一些組織的脈絡一旦有任何狀況的時候看起來你們目前還是在被動的收集資訊那我期待因為中國對台灣的威脅過去幾十年越來越緊迫了從歷史的長河來看台灣不管誰執政啊"},{"start":7739.482,"end":7755.97,"text":"中國對台的軍演沒有少過那把它規則於誰執政就怎麼樣不僅是歷史的文盲而且是附和了中共的論調委員我們在還沒有成立在野黨就是不能說在野黨"},{"start":7757.711,"end":7781.121,"text":"未解嚴前只有一個政黨的時代就已經受到中共非常大的威脅從來沒有停過Google也有就是說從台灣本身的政治更迭來上來講他要侵略併吞台灣不會因為誰執政停止從地緣政治來看威脅的也不是只有台灣難道菲律賓是民進黨執政日本是民進黨當首相澳洲現在首相是民進黨即便同為共產國家的"},{"start":7784.102,"end":7811.509,"text":"越南也經常受到對 沒有錯客觀的國際現實從台灣內部的政治更迭這件事情是國際麻煩製造者中國的野心跟台灣的政治局勢其實是無關但我很遺憾國內有這樣做所以我剛才問就是說我們僑委會從收集資訊到主動營造僑界做出有我的行動以外我現在要問的另外一個就是那如果有因為僑務委員是政府的職務"},{"start":7813.315,"end":7834.254,"text":"他也是一个荣誉职当然我们还有乔物的荣誉职我们有乔物委员荣誉的乔物职不管怎么样的职务但乔物委员是总统聘任的有法源依据的总是这些头衔是来自于我国的法源依据我们政府的一级机关给予授权如果有乔物委员去附和中国的说法"},{"start":7834.995,"end":7841.9,"text":"認為是台灣挑釁認為是委員這個以前有發生過曾經在馬總統時期因此開除了兩個僑務委員當時馬政府也開除僑務委員所以我說這個一致的這個沒有分誰執政我的意思說現在如果我們僑務委員中國的軍演結果附和中共的論調"},{"start":7859.818,"end":7886.066,"text":"指台灣挑釁這有點像色狼意圖對女性不軌你不去檢討色狼檢討女性的穿著一樣荒謬我們要講什麼主張什麼是一個自由民主開放社會的權利不管叫總統或者是菜市場做生意的都有主張的權利沒有人可以拿槍桿子來威脅一個自由民主國家你可以主張什麼你不能主張什麼主張那個造成別人拿槍威脅你就是我們自己不對"},{"start":7886.986,"end":7892.248,"text":"我們自己國內有人這樣主張那是國人沒辦法開除這個人但是如果有僑務委員做這樣的主張的話我會要求僑務委員過去馬政府也開除過兩個對你們應該要去看有沒有會 我們會來了解如果他們有在群組或公開做這些狀況我這邊不公開點名我有資料我會給你好的我認為這個是"},{"start":7909.653,"end":7924.654,"text":"黨派是民主競爭OK國家存亡是共同利益沒有黨派之分如果有人拿軍拿軍事力量拿著槍指著我們國人的腦袋還在附和他的話"},{"start":7926.058,"end":7950.709,"text":"哪有一丁點資格跟臉皮拿我們國家榮譽紙這個就要處理所以這一個部分我認為我們僑委會可以從收集資訊進一步影響僑界做出對台灣有利的事情到進一步我們要看看哪一些人其實是拿著中華民國國旗反中華民國這個應該要做處理請委員提供資訊謝謝委員長謝謝王委員"},{"start":7956.308,"end":7959.309,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請麥玉珍委員上台質詢現在主席有請我們僑委會的委員長好 請委員長麥委員早安"},{"start":7985.855,"end":8012.871,"text":"委員長好 我們僑委會在報告中有提到這幾年通過海外僑團商會親商培育以及就是產業交流邀訪的活動來連結海外僑台商與台灣的產業發展這些努力本席給予很高也高度的肯定 因為我們有一起過"},{"start":8014.112,"end":8027.863,"text":"所以呢但是我想要請教一下除了辦活動後續的制度有沒有真正的連結起來橋委會邀請海外的橋台商來台參訪AI"},{"start":8030.529,"end":8054.085,"text":"智慧科技製造還有就是醫療等產業這些安排和國內各單位交流也媒合很棒也很有意義但是活動結束後呢有沒有後續的追蹤是否真正的促成合作注意台灣產業走向"},{"start":8055.365,"end":8071.932,"text":"國際的市場或有哪一些具體可就是持續的效果 另外報告裡面也要說配合產業發展與供應鏈調整來推動橋台商的連結 請教一下"},{"start":8073.232,"end":8092.86,"text":"我們是否有和經濟部 國發會等的部會固定合作把橋台商的力量納入整體發展 產業的發展還是各做各的 橋委會有沒有把我們的橋台商的產業供應鏈"},{"start":8094.961,"end":8100.163,"text":"平台建立起來在哪裡因為我們裡面沒看到委員我們在世界台商總會的系統裡面有六大洲那六大洲下面都有各國那事實上我們就是跟這些各國各州的總會長定期都會有群組在討論那我們組成這些不論是參訪團或者是這個"},{"start":8119.588,"end":8144.906,"text":"理監事大會開會我們一定也都讓邀請國發會經濟部外交部等相關單位都會來參與同時我們也會安排他們去拜會經濟部國發會外交部教育部等相關單位這個是一個整體的配套所以政府並不是只有一個僑委會作為窗口事實上僑委會只是在這個當中作為一個平台來連結"},{"start":8146.147,"end":8153.969,"text":"各實際的部會那實際上的部會才是真的在執行這些業務的單位所以我們的橋台商都很清楚就是說他們回來的話我們都會依著他們發展的需求來幫他們介紹比方說有不少的這個泰國台商他們就認為說"},{"start":8167.132,"end":8169.595,"text":"我們的這個研究能量很強的公研院他們覺得公研院值得去拜會那我們就幫泰國的台商總會組一個團然後介紹他們認識以後他們自己去簽MOU簽完MOU以後他這個泰國總會下面他還有十幾個分會跟會員他就可以憑著這個MOU"},{"start":8188.633,"end":8195.297,"text":"他有個案要去委託的時候他可以去簽約委託基本上我們的MOU都是先提供初步的諮詢諮詢的話不用費用但是如果你要個案的委託的時候我舉一個例子來講我們過去幾年有好多個橋台商他們在不同的國家比方說他們在工研院他們需要某些技術上的協助"},{"start":8211.807,"end":8221.256,"text":"是因為我們知道說辦很多活動你我也參加很多所以活動之外我們也有在追蹤這個說明的是說是否長期有效的一個平台的一個制度因為我們希望說僑商資源就不停留在就是活動啊交流啊"},{"start":8234.108,"end":8239.412,"text":"我們希望就是說台灣的產業國際化還有永續發展的重要的平台我們要的是這樣子的一個可追蹤就是大家可以不要說每次辦活動我會緊密就是說我促進多少多少我們不是要這樣子的數據我們要真正的實際的平台"},{"start":8255.364,"end":8260.565,"text":"對而且我們也會就是在這個MOU簽完後我們會去詢問說有沒有多少個案例我們反過來比方說我們就去問公園院說那這一年簽完MOU以後有沒有哪幾個國家的人來跟他們簽我希望的是有可追蹤的一個真正的平台有數據追蹤不是只是說我這個活動辦"},{"start":8279.009,"end":8298.222,"text":"不過委員 其實是這樣子因為像工研院他是屬於經濟部的這個管轄權所以我才說有沒有跟其他的部委爭爭的是一個供應鏈的平台不只是各做各的啦好 接下來呢 我想要再請教一下說我們 我上次有質詢勞動部長他就說 僑生歸僑委會"},{"start":8309.31,"end":8332.752,"text":"實習歸教育部 這責任不是這樣子就切開了但學生的生活與權益不能這樣子切我們今天關心的不是誰管因為僑生也好 外籍生也好來台灣都是大家互相分工 不是誰管而制度有沒有真正的保護這些孩子"},{"start":8333.453,"end":8357.359,"text":"因為這些孩子都是媽媽的心目中的寶貝因為依據報導在2024年10月長期調查的僑委會志2014年推動就是三家市的產學攜手合作僑生專班10年已經超過2萬人來台名義上是學習"},{"start":8358.539,"end":8367.896,"text":"但是實際上是實習並行所以但這個食物現場很多僑生就是逐漸當成就是"},{"start":8369.69,"end":8379.073,"text":"人力的充分所以呢沒有好好的培育人才所以我想請教三個關鍵問題第一 僑委會在核准高中職實習型的那個專班時有沒有定有明確的原則確保實習內容還有時數與教育的目的不會偏離就是以學習為本 第二"},{"start":8399.018,"end":8421.45,"text":"對承辦專班的學校 僑委會是否持續掌握實習的實際狀況而且不是招生名額多少有沒有就是檢核這些學校有沒有符合原本的核准的培育的目標 第三當僑生在學習"},{"start":8425.652,"end":8445.15,"text":"與實習的之間出現明顯的落差的時候他們還沒有18歲就來台灣當同工的樣子甚至影響適應的保障僑委會是否已經及時列入還是呢等發生的時候再來解決問題"},{"start":8446.428,"end":8473.908,"text":"好謝謝委員的三個問題那個內容很多我後隨後也會提供書面資料給你參考我先簡單講一下我們的喬生之所以叫喬生他就是來學習的所以我們不是把他當作移工我們也不是把他當作勞動力來思考我們是來培養這些人才將來希望他有機會成為台灣的一部分這個是我們的前提那我們按照教育部的規範就是"},{"start":8475.925,"end":8483.907,"text":"這些產學合作專班就是建校合作是有他的法定依據的條例這個都是我們立法院通過的那在這個條例的標準之下呢我們現在的高職專班就是他的學習時數不得低於全部的50%這是基本原則所以他就算是要去實習 實習的時數也不可以超過他在學校的時數"},{"start":8500.191,"end":8508.693,"text":"這是基本原則然後我們當然也會看各個學校的這個師生比例他的師資夠不夠他的校舍設備夠不夠他的住宿環境好不好這幾年我們把標準定的越來越嚴格是希望說台灣過去作為技職教育非常評價高的學校在現在我們培養其他海外學生的時候也能夠繼續保有以前的這個"},{"start":8528.396,"end":8542.189,"text":"助紙那這些孩子們來到台灣我們當然有責任要保護他所以每一個跟我們先約承辦的學校我們都有定期以及不定期的檢查包括去實習企業也會檢查因為時間有限我知道你們是剛才你說後續要給我"},{"start":8548.155,"end":8562.564,"text":"一份書面資料因為我本身我家的小孩來台灣所以我才會提出這個問題很多我們台灣的小孩來台灣越南小孩來台灣應該是超過其他國家的人"},{"start":8568.647,"end":8582.279,"text":"目前是最多但是近年來可能已經在高峰點要下來了沒錯為什麼要下來呢因為僑生不是外來的勞動力是國家用制度邀請的人才但是制度如果只顧"},{"start":8584.69,"end":8595.143,"text":"有來的人就好沒有照顧到是被照顧後續的所以就會是我們政府的責任我們為什麼要提出因為希望我們草委會要跨部會整合"},{"start":8602.973,"end":8609.819,"text":"主責制度讓就是這個制度上是否建立就是 委員喬森確實還是我們負責的還有調整制度還有監督學校有沒有按照這樣子我們也都提供24小時多語系的電話給喬森可以申訴很多很多的家長跟我們反映"},{"start":8622.911,"end":8627.413,"text":"委員可不可以直接給我們資訊變成同工所以他們覺得說孩子來台灣高中生來台灣你的孩子如果高中生就是實習變成打工的樣子我們不會允許這個狀態除非學生自己一直說他要打工我們了解的狀況是這樣這個報導有很多是過去很久以前的錯誤訊息已經不是現在的狀態了"},{"start":8651.164,"end":8666.758,"text":"我最後的要求就是希望今天我們執行的重點只有一個就是把制度補齊不論是海外的橋台商的鏈結還是僑生的實習的制度不只能"},{"start":8668.123,"end":8682.846,"text":"停留在辦活動給名額也必須走向可追蹤可評估可調整有人負責的機制平台我們要求就是建立制度要留得住"},{"start":8683.386,"end":8698.219,"text":"還有用得上讓台商 僑委會讓我們的台商們還有僑委會的僑商他們來台灣真正的被照顧及安心還有讓我們的僑生的父母"},{"start":8698.88,"end":8723.829,"text":"在海外安心放心把孩子交給台灣也讓我們的僑生在發展求職的路徑讓海外的人才留下來也促進我們的台商的產業連接國際的接軌有制度永續發展實質的平台不要浪費我們的人民的納稅錢讓真正的制度發"},{"start":8728.082,"end":8731.463,"text":"這個就是我今天來要求的謝謝接下來我們有請我們馬文金召委質詢"},{"start":8755.777,"end":8759.958,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請委員長有請委員長馬造委辛苦了委員長辛苦希望可以早日康復謝謝今天我們特別安排這樣的一個就是橋台商跟台灣產業共同發展成果的這樣一個專報"},{"start":8782.364,"end":8785.685,"text":"其實很重要的希望在已經經過一年的時間那我們在整個政策的推動還有預算的運用上面我們達到什麼樣的成果因為近年其實可能也已經很長的時間少子化跟人才的短缺一直是國內一個非常重要的一個問題"},{"start":8801.73,"end":8804.872,"text":"那有很多政府的政策面還有很多經費的運用其實也都希望可以跟這些可能的欠缺有相關的連結或者是考量那我們在這個整個僑生教育的這個部分我們也希望他可以符合我們很多國內因為不管在教育上面我們很多學校其實也招不到人"},{"start":8826.625,"end":8828.026,"text":"那如何在這樣子產業的人才的欠缺還有我們很多教育的學習上面可以彌補上來這個在很多留用僑生中長期的計畫是我們非常重要的一個目標方向"},{"start":8844.6,"end":8846.502,"text":"我們看到僑委會在本會期之前的業務報告裡面有特別提到我們今年辦理的僑生就業博覽會它雖然招生的成果很亮麗可是社會各界也期待在整個後續當中其實可以有精進辦學的品質"},{"start":8866.441,"end":8869.505,"text":"這個原因到底是什麼因為我們看起來好像我們成果都說很好可是在業界或社會各界其實他也覺得我們應該在半血的品質上面可以更精進所以喬生教育他的成果跟國內產業界的期待這樣子的落差到底是什麼"},{"start":8885.862,"end":8889.303,"text":"是謝謝馬昭偉的垂詢確實馬昭偉觀察非常細微我們業界的反應我們也很密切在關注第一個就是我們有意識到早期的這個僑生剛剛來的時候可能語言能力還沒有到位所以有時候他們在這個實習的現場因為語言溝通上不是很好"},{"start":8910.712,"end":8919.815,"text":"那會造成他們在實習上面有一些障礙或者學習情況不佳那由於這兩年我們已經密切觀察到這樣子的一個趨勢發展我們也跟教育部開了好幾次會最後是決定說從今年開始今年的九月份的這個新的學期114學年度我們就有開始其實是前一年我們僑委會先開始然後今年是教育部同時一起開始就是說我們提高了"},{"start":8940.123,"end":8942.544,"text":"喬生第一年來到台灣的時候他的華語學習時數必須在216小時整個學習時間內華語課程要佔96小時以上也就是說他們要上密集的華語班那麼他們剛進來的時候第一一開始我們會先跟他們做程度分級委員長我想"},{"start":8965.993,"end":8977.447,"text":"因為時間的關係我們要的是他主要的問題點在哪裡第一個語言第二個是第二個呢是就是有些時候學生可能他在適應上面他對於這個產業的狀況有些"},{"start":8983.234,"end":8985.836,"text":"陌生那這個陌生的狀況會使得他有適應不良的情形這個我們也有接到一些廠商有類似的反應所以基本上僑委會其實是有掌握他的問題出在哪裡那如果就這個問題產生的這些條件我們也希望在未來不管是明年以後或者在這個部分如何強化我們希望可以有更具體的作為"},{"start":9009.195,"end":9012.338,"text":"因為我們來看看我們就是在113學年度這個產息專班技高端成班的這個結構表裡面我們可以看到其實我們看這個服務類科的這個開的班數可能也不少"},{"start":9026.61,"end":9031.051,"text":"那他的招生達成率也很高這可能在需求端跟來學習的這樣子的雙重條件其實是比較平衡一點可是我們看到製造業營造業還有看護因為看護可能也是我們目前國家非常欠缺還有營造業這兩類其實是我們非常欠缺人才的還有農業的部分我們看還有電子商務我們就這幾個來看我們看到"},{"start":9053.899,"end":9055.701,"text":"這個除了服務類科它的達成率比較高以外我們的製造業我們開的班數是也非常高因為它在對於我們國內的需求量其實是非常的"},{"start":9069.235,"end":9073.456,"text":"必要可是我們開這麼多我們的達成率應該也還沒達到標準大概只有78%我們希望就這個部分他的問題點在哪裡也應該再去做考量另外比較嚴重的部分就營造業跟長照看護的部分雖然我們這麼欠缺可是我們卻都只"},{"start":9090.7,"end":9106.909,"text":"只有一校或者兩校可是都只開一班在我們這麼欠缺的情況之下為什麼這麼多的學校我們卻只開一班那還有農業的部分這個看起來也還符合我們的需求那就這些我們"},{"start":9108.35,"end":9132.495,"text":"要請委員長看看因為看護的部分招生達成率其實只有31%那怎麼樣解讀這個職業類別的這個招生狀況為什麼他的開班率的這麼低的原因跟委員報告在營造業的部分因為願意開的學校是很少就是說在過往我們"},{"start":9135.656,"end":9141.4,"text":"這個技高端的學校開營造業的比例確實是不多然後所以有意願要開營造業班的目前確實是只有一校一班那這個結構我就不用多說那有關於長照的這個部分有關於機構看護我們確實是希望能夠廣設"},{"start":9154.429,"end":9170.945,"text":"所以現在這個在技高端偏少但是在技專端就逐漸在增加也就是這些科技型大學的比較多那由於機構看護是一個比較跟人密切接觸的訓練那所以學生的這個"},{"start":9172.566,"end":9183.077,"text":"我們在招募的過程當中現在目前的兩校都沒有得到非常好的成績我們也在跟他們討論他們是說海外學生對這個領域比較不感興趣所以"},{"start":9189.304,"end":9193.126,"text":"委員長我們發現問題就在這裡其實我們給學校他們在招生上面其實是很欠缺的因為我們如果說有些學校他不願意配合甚至我們也可以考慮到其他學校我們不能學校提什麼我們就讓他只是給學生填什麼"},{"start":9207.112,"end":9211.853,"text":"因為這樣還是限縮我們原來制定這樣子的一個僑生教育的一個主要的宗旨還有對我們國內可能產業相輔相成這樣的一個目標方向所以就這個部分我們希望可以有儘速一個調整的一個方案出來因為我們看到這個另外就是在勞動部的政策上面它對於外國中階技術人力的技術條件其實它是可以長期留下來的"},{"start":9233.297,"end":9237.601,"text":"所以就這個部分我們可以看到因為包括像社福類的還有這個產業類的我們現在說我們很欠缺可是我們希望在學校裡面就可以讓他們很清楚的知道尤其是在他們的國家裡面我們要去招生的時候很清楚讓他知道如果他可以得到"},{"start":9253.675,"end":9263.463,"text":"相關的證照他的薪資可以達到多少甚至可以留在我們國內做比較長期的一個服務我相信這樣對於一些招生的誘因也會比較高這顯然我們好像沒有看到學校對於這一方面證照的輔導有做這樣子的一個努力這個部分是不是可以再強化"},{"start":9273.919,"end":9280.404,"text":"好謝謝委員的建議我也覺得這個是很好的方向我們也會加強甚至補助學校說學生要考證照我們都可以給學生補助那個證照考試來強化他們的誘因對希望可以讓他們有時間去取得證照因為要拿證照其實還是要有實務的經驗"},{"start":9292.754,"end":9300.358,"text":"還有在學理上面就是可能這方面都要平均的有增長的一個機會不要說像大家質疑的大概來會變成是打工的性質這也不是我們樂見的那這個部分我們希望他可以儘速的可以做一個調整或者方案再提供給我們委員會參考另外就一點點時間因為我們上一次之前也都有提過中國大陸之前開孔子學院"},{"start":9319.648,"end":9323.109,"text":"那因為有政治的考量所以很多歐美國家其實就已經排除不希望他做這樣的一個設置可是他們改成魯班工坊來接棒那這個對於他們有什麼樣的好處其實我們可以看到他的成果好像已經顯現出來了就這個部分因為他在魯班工坊的這個"},{"start":9346.539,"end":9366.41,"text":"藉這個名義除了打著技能培訓還有肩負文化交流的任務還有建立海外職業教育的平台我們看到他在近年其實可以看到透過這樣技能教育深化人文的理解塑造他學技能懂中國的合作型模式他已經幫中國"},{"start":9370.168,"end":9392.279,"text":"整個國家比如說像輸出設備比如說像它的標準規格的訂定或者形成技術及教育鏈的雙輸出也加深這些國家其實在技術體系上對於大陸的依賴這個已經越來越明顯甚至在歐洲地區比如說葡萄牙跟英國也建立了融入當地職業教育體系的根據地所以顯然我們在這一部分我們的努力"},{"start":9398.442,"end":9406.708,"text":"我們看到很多我們也有一些可能出去做一些交流可是我們看到我們雖然很熱鬧可是我們沒有辦法把我們的規格標準甚至我們的人文可以很有效的把它留在當地或者我們可以做什麼樣有效的輸出"},{"start":9416.295,"end":9419.678,"text":"或者更把當地的中低階的這樣一個人才可以引進國內我想這個可能也是我們必須要在這個競爭的狀態底下怎麼樣去做努力的一個方向這個部分也請提出比較具體的做法在明年"},{"start":9432.671,"end":9435.013,"text":"謝謝委員提供這個訊息那魯班工坊我的了解主要是在這個東南亞國家而且他成立的時間其實是比我們晚很多反而是我們的技職教育在海外可能在某些國家已經達到某一些口碑了所以他們也意識到說這個是一個可以發展的方向"},{"start":9455.251,"end":9469.339,"text":"那事實上孔子學院是在做高等教育大學裡面那魯班工坊是在做技職教育部分那所以由於我們的技職專班在海外有一點已經有一點市場跟名號所以他們近年來也想要模仿類似的模式不過委員剛剛提醒的這件事情我們會加強來了解進一步來改善因為既然是技職像我們剛剛講的他的設備的輸出還有很多的平台還有人才的培育"},{"start":9483.107,"end":9493.519,"text":"其實這個在在都已經開始在生根在茁壯所以這個部分我們看應該要做怎麼樣的平衡有一個具體的做法謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝召委"},{"start":9500.002,"end":9504.807,"text":"謝謝委員我從一個建議看我們希望說第一個就是有很多建議就是我們草委會要不要給僑生讀一年的華語這樣子的話因為不管公司也好還是說那個也好就變成是這個僑生"},{"start":9520.022,"end":9539.454,"text":"對還有就是說我也希望說我們用勞動部的85萬的移工他們怎麼樣開放讓我們可以就剛才的缺工的補足就缺那個學生的那個就是對我覺得是要跨部會合作謝謝"},{"start":9550.639,"end":9555.542,"text":"接下來請林倩琦委員林倩琦林倩琦委員不在請謝依鳳委員上台質詢謝謝主席我想要請我們委員長請委員長"},{"start":9577.06,"end":9603.817,"text":"謝委員你好委員長我看到了僑委會就是說你們相關的就是海外就是僑商就是間接的這個成果但我想要了解我知道僑委會一定了解就是僑商是我國非常重要的一個海外鏈接的一個就是說我們主力"},{"start":9605.038,"end":9622.714,"text":"對然後不管是在生產不管是在商業的鏈結以及未來人才的培養上面都非常重要那對於在經濟的部分我想要請問我們是不是能夠在"},{"start":9624.415,"end":9643.045,"text":"藉由橋商這樣子的平台在海外也能夠發展永續的這樣子一個就是說不管是碳灰的基地也好或者是有沒有這樣子的一個規劃據你了解委員我不是很了解你的內容是"},{"start":9644.426,"end":9667.74,"text":"因為就是說我們海外的僑界他們所居住的僑居地其實他們的土地都比台灣還要大部分都大大很多所以在不管是碳匯或者是就是說種樹或者是用不同的方式當然現在也有很多是藻類或者是什麼等等的"},{"start":9669.181,"end":9690.774,"text":"來作為一個能夠成為碳交易平台以及能夠讓台灣的廠商有相關的這樣子一個就是說尋找這種碳交易的這種碳或碳中和的這樣子一個是不是僑委會未來也可以做相關的"},{"start":9693.483,"end":9715.084,"text":"這樣我了解了那個跟委員報告就是因為過去這三年中我們都一直在不斷的希望協助海外橋台上能夠升級那除了在數位化的智慧生產方面升級以外我們當然很重視ESG所以在ESG上面我們過去這幾年無論在北美洲或是在亞洲"},{"start":9716.205,"end":9720.387,"text":"或者在歐洲甚至後來我們鼓勵那個世界台商總會去成立一個ESG的委員會專門來各國做各項的這個除了論壇然後這個實際的交流以外那麼近年來呢我們在亞洲地區確實也有成立了一些具體的"},{"start":9737.358,"end":9739.939,"text":"叫做碳中和協會那碳中和協會現在在東南亞國家他們逐漸越來越擴張從泰國開始到越南那麼我們也具體有從113年開始就協服我們海外的台商在溫室氣體的盤查輔導計畫那這個計畫我們去年是選了兩家"},{"start":9763.823,"end":9771.589,"text":"台商因為我們相對給他補助他也要自己出一部分的資金然後我們給他這個企業做企業診斷讓他知道他要怎麼改善以便可以符合未來這個淨零碳排RE100如果他的這個產品未來是要銷往歐洲"},{"start":9782.296,"end":9786.437,"text":"那它要符合這個RE100的時候那它需要做哪些廠區的這個生產設備的改善或者它的整體的這個能源的運用或是它的原料的來源等等那這一部分我們從去年開始事實上確實有在應該說112年開始在先做一個民意調查調查完以後我們是去年開始做具體的輔導計畫"},{"start":9806.621,"end":9811.422,"text":"那就由廠商來申請以後我們選出兩家做試驗型的計畫那到今年呢我們更進一步就加強這個企業淨零碳排的計畫當中呢我們有辦了三場的這個成果分享會也就是說這兩家已經被我們這個做企業診斷完以後輔導完以後我們請他來分享他如何去改善"},{"start":9828.086,"end":9832.128,"text":"那擴張他的市場那同時我們也跟亞洲台商總會一起合作在他們的這個年會當中呢辦理這個溫室氣體盤查的計畫成果的分享會那今年呢我們也有辦這個淨零碳排的種子培訓營那有來自泰國美國菲律賓韓國印尼越南巴西等七個國家那這些國家的這個參與者我們同時也"},{"start":9857.222,"end":9885.696,"text":"除了他們回來台灣參加我們也有派人出去在各國去做演講所以這部分是雙向的有在長期的進行好 這個部分是我們僑委會協助僑商在做這個碳的這個ESG相關的發展但是因為你剛才提到就是說你也間接了就是海外的僑商來參訪工研院那我知道說工研院也有非常多相關的減碳的技術等等"},{"start":9887.397,"end":9905.635,"text":"就是有礙於說台灣的土地就是不夠大或者是規模不夠大那如果橋商願意協助台灣在海外發展相關的技術那對於整體的碳排也有相關的減排那甚至能夠協助國內的"},{"start":9908.018,"end":9919.033,"text":"廠商做相關的探交易或是相關的合作的時候我認為未來這也是應該僑委會可以去協助間接的一個方向"},{"start":9919.582,"end":9922.924,"text":"對委員所提的這個事實上就叫做綠色產業的概念那過去20年德國是非常積極在發展這一方面的產業規模那近年來台灣也小有成績那麼所以我們的一些研究單位新興的一些技術如果廠商願意去做一些試用他們可以進行簽約那他的技術上就會派人去專家指導"},{"start":9948.764,"end":9960.537,"text":"那這個部分確實是有的我們有在鼓勵我們的海外台商說他們如果未來的市場端是到歐美市場的話那他們一定要逐步的達到這個RE100的目標"},{"start":9963.76,"end":9968.765,"text":"那因此他們的這個各項的生產技術他們就要符合這些相關的標準所以這幾年我們已經連續三年都有請國內的這個專家學者出去海外做巡迴的演講之外還有座談會以及呢就是說就個案進行輔導作業我們每一次座談會完我們也會做民意調查"},{"start":9987.563,"end":10010.912,"text":"就是回收看看大家的需求是哪一些然後也會分門別類因為每一個產業別他的需求會有點不一樣那可見的未來是歐盟的市場他對於碳中和跟碳交易這件事情已經是明年就即將上路要實施了那所以國內的這個主導單位應當是我沒有了解錯的話應該是經濟部與環境部那經濟部與環境部他們也有密切在"},{"start":10015.754,"end":10034.666,"text":"交流所以我們帶我們的這個橋台商到國內如果進行參訪的話基本上也會去辦會這些相關的單位好那還有就是說我知道說橋委會也有一個就是海外的就是台灣青年的海外搭橋的計畫搭橋計畫對那已經辦理了多年了那我必須要"},{"start":10041.551,"end":10057.263,"text":"提醒僑委會就是說必須希望說僑委會能夠就是說多多延攬像就是說彰化或者是相關偏鄉的就是優秀的青年到海外去做這樣子相關的大橋計劃因為畢竟從與"},{"start":10060.806,"end":10080.737,"text":"語言的這個就是說資源來說像彰化或者當然就不及六都等這種都會區的學校但是如果青年有意就是去從事相關的工作的時候我覺得僑委會應該要給予他們特別的支持"},{"start":10081.477,"end":10099.122,"text":"因為畢竟就是說有礙於相關的就是學習上面就是對於語言學習上面支援的這個障礙那如果當我們彰化的青年有這樣子的一個需求的時候那是不是希望僑委會能夠大力的支持"},{"start":10099.909,"end":10104.772,"text":"好謝謝委員關注我們這個計畫確實我們這個計畫在國內也很受到大學生的歡迎那計畫我們都是在網路這個公開的徵求但標準其實就是兩個第一個就是說他們要有一個申請的計畫就是他們參加這個我們的搭橋的方案以後他們要怎麼promote台灣那第二個當然語言能力是很重要"},{"start":10127.085,"end":10149.046,"text":"今年以今年到目前為止我們都是以英語為主但明年開始我們我們打算開辦新的模式就是我們分七條路線在不同的國家那不同的國家有不同的語系比方說有一條路線要去越南那我們這個時候就是要求的是有多越南語的能力這個就有優先的"},{"start":10149.486,"end":10166.504,"text":"比較好的這個資格那過去我們單純以英文的時候都是C1級的那因為來的學生老實說跟委員報告非常優秀所以他們語言能力基本上沒有到C1級的幾乎就已經被排除掉了所以我們在過程當中我們也"},{"start":10169.707,"end":10187.642,"text":"嘗試用一些新的計畫希望能夠廣納不同的學生也讓新住民學生也多一點機會所以我們現在就是說藉著我們路線不一樣的國度那如果有多一種語言我們就在英文之外再加一個本土當地語言的這個這個條件然後讓他增加多一點不同的機會以上報告"},{"start":10193.047,"end":10218.727,"text":"能夠考量到就是說一些偏鄉因為北中南我知道這個南部的委員也都關心這個問題對不同的這個是但中部以北的大學確實人數比較多啦所以來報名的人數會集中在北部那當然也會在台北讀大學啦但是他們先天上就是說我們從也有很多彰化的學子有來參加我們計畫有有有他們考上北部的學校的對對對好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":10225.508,"end":10239.96,"text":"接下來請吳思瑤 吳思瑤委員不在請楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在 請林黛樺林黛樺 林黛樺委員不在 請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請林益君委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請委員長請委員長"},{"start":10259.011,"end":10270.921,"text":"林委員你好委員長好委員長上一次上個月的時候我在這邊曾經向您就教有關僑委會海外信保基金的問題是因為上一次的時間比較來不及詢問完整所以我想說依照這一個再來詢問相關的問題委員長相信你一定非常清楚海外的信保基金是僑委會協助海外發展給具有潛力還有欠缺擔保品的僑台商提供的一個信用保證"},{"start":10288.395,"end":10309.201,"text":"幫他們順利的取得銀行的融資但是問題是這六年來海外信保基金的業績卻一直在嚴重的下滑雖然目前的淨值額仍然是充足的照我看本院的預算的中心報告資料裡面有發現如果海外信保基金用113年底的淨值額"},{"start":10311.181,"end":10314.743,"text":"24億元來換算表示這個基金可負荷的保證金已達240億了如果再用114年7月底可負荷的保證金餘額來算的話來看這樣目前這個基金其實還有78億的淨值"},{"start":10328.61,"end":10340.103,"text":"可以使用而且也是就等於是高出113年底的三倍之多所以上一次我在業務報告的時候也是有詢問過委員長說你們是否考慮對海外信保基金減資避免成為錢坑但委員長你的答覆是說因為114年的績效不佳"},{"start":10348.453,"end":10352.936,"text":"因為那個時候美國川普對等關稅的影響才會讓這個企業都不願意增加投資然後也導致了整個信保基金乘坐上面的案件的績效非常的差這樣所以我在想說因為美國川普總統實施的對等關稅讓這些橋台包到現在都還在觀望"},{"start":10366.485,"end":10373.867,"text":"那是不是意味著川普的對等關稅的措施確實讓我們海外的橋台商這些經濟投資的發展的情況真的是不好呢否則今年已經是今年是最後一天了嘛那從橋委會今天的報告來看的話完全看不出橋台商的產業發展的情況那我想請問一下橋委會的海外信保基金今年最後總共到底是成做了多少件事整體的業績"},{"start":10395.071,"end":10416.678,"text":"我請我們侯董事長來跟您說明來請委員好那這邊跟委員報告就是我們事實上今年的話到11月底是總共承保了317件那整個銀行收入金額是2億3千4百多萬那相較去年的話去年的話整個全年度是348件2億5千多萬"},{"start":10417.358,"end":10434.573,"text":"那我們預計到年底的話應該會比去年會稍微再成長一些那基本上是業務上應該是沒問題那至於說剛剛委員提到說倍數問題那事實上以過去來看的話大概依照今年到11月底的話我們整個那個保證倍數大概3.18倍啦"},{"start":10436.114,"end":10451.991,"text":"雖然說我們所謂的上限到10倍可是如果假設是以這個10倍來算的話因為剛剛我也提到我們大概進行到24億變成說我們整個要保證到所謂的大概差不多到242億這樣的一個金額的話因為我們現在貸償率大概是1.4%"},{"start":10453.513,"end":10474.141,"text":"所以假設這個待場率全部都是我們要去待場的話那事實上我們大概每年可能就是要去待場達到3.39億的這樣一個金額那事實上這樣一個金額可能會造成我們這個季節虧損所以因為這樣的狀況所以我們事實上整個那個保證倍數我們上次逐步來增加可是也要去考量我們整個這個一個待放能量跟這個一個壽性品質以上"},{"start":10475.342,"end":10482.147,"text":"因為今年的10月初其實才發生了川普對等關稅的經貿的問題到現在也是還沒有解決但是因為我們美國對台的這個部分因為他還沒有完全公佈完今天當然是2025年的最後一天我們也一直都知道說他已經要公佈但是要選擇公佈是美方我們也不能push他說你要趕快公佈"},{"start":10499.56,"end":10505.284,"text":"但是到目前為止我們曾做的案件確實在海外到目前為止有314件委員你這個資料因為是7月底而已7月底才190件所以到目前為止是確實11月底有300多件已經上來了"},{"start":10516.591,"end":10520.553,"text":"承作的概念是說委員是這樣子我們沒有什麼減不減資的問題我們跟一般的銀行不一樣因為我們是在做信用保證而已所以是用這一筆基金來作為信用保證的基礎所以如果我信用的保證基金額度過低那銀行就不想跟我玩了"},{"start":10536.141,"end":10540.225,"text":"他說你就沒有能力啊你沒有待長能力的時候我還讓你做寶那不是做假的嗎所以這是為什麼我們在2017年會有那個增資計畫原來我們的基金不到10億後來在2017年為了要提高這個額度"},{"start":10553.556,"end":10556.018,"text":"貸款的這個受信額度當時配合新南向因此行政院通過了20億增資計劃那這20億增資計劃到現在8年了我們事實上只有增到22億就停止就沒有再增加"},{"start":10568.607,"end":10574.433,"text":"所以我一直看說這樣也不是辦法所以我今年就確定說要親自出馬去遊說我們這些民間的這個公股跟民股的行庫他們因為要捐款捐到4成我政府才能有這個相對6成的公務預算撥補所以今年我好不容易已經募到7000多萬了"},{"start":10591.108,"end":10608.043,"text":"這個確實我們公股行庫也好我們的民營行庫也好今年又給我們捐了一筆錢那所以我才能對等編了一億零五百萬不過到現在因為立法院沒有審查通過所以如果沒有過我這個錢就不能這個撥補所以我的基金規模就變成只有停在23億而已"},{"start":10610.016,"end":10615.781,"text":"我針對就是說當然海外信保基金最主要是要協助僑民還有僑台上取得資金這是大家都知道的但是代償的餘額一直在上升這樣有沒有什麼就是你們有沒有研議怎麼追償的這些機制以減少損失有沒有什麼策略"},{"start":10627.972,"end":10651.704,"text":"有 我們是全中華民國唯一一個這個追群這個就是說代償的企業是終身的因為其他的銀行 行庫他們就只有20年20年沒有他們就打為代帳但是呢 信保基金 海外信保基金我們不是 我們是終身所以只要他的個人的這個帳戶裡面有出現錢我們就會馬上去把他扣回來"},{"start":10655.146,"end":10658.347,"text":"或者還有任何資產我們就會終生把它追究那事實上我們的代償的比例其實是沒有增加的是總金額看起來有增加原因是因為我們案件量越來越多嘛因為幾十年來累積的嘛"},{"start":10671.873,"end":10693.439,"text":"所以那個累積如果每年有多一件那一件就會持續一直加上去但是我們也有繼續追回來一些錢這不是沒有但是來回之間這是為什麼我基金規模要有一定的額度我才能得到這個信任感讓大家覺得說我這個信保基金是有能力不會做到一半我自己就垮掉的"},{"start":10693.919,"end":10709.386,"text":"原因在這裡但是我們現在對於案件的審核機制我們有更好的模式讓他變成呆帳的機會就越來越少了這部分我們有在努力當中謝謝那我再問一個問題就是僑委會在111年的時候有委託一個中經院做了一個僑商參與台灣場合合作的意向的調查分析然後這個報告是在112年的時候有公佈針對了全球的六大洲"},{"start":10722.151,"end":10727.814,"text":"橋台商對於台灣的產業的產學合作的意向所以當然我知道橋友會是要透過這個調查來了解台商企業的營運的趨勢還有動態還有只要是說看怎麼樣去連結海外的橋台商的跟與台灣的產業的共同的發展但是我看了這個報告內容有指出有五成的受調的亞洲橋台都認為需要培訓人才"},{"start":10747.105,"end":10751.829,"text":"然後有五成的北美的他希望透過技術移轉提升產品的價值然後有六成的歐洲橋台商他是希望期待新創企業的對接的合作平台然後四成的非洲橋台商他是希望能夠提供學生建教的實習的機會還有授課演講與經驗的分享那我只是想請教一下委員長就是明年明天就是等於115年了"},{"start":10774.027,"end":10779.788,"text":"這三年來本席有發現僑委會都沒有再更新最新的資料請問一下你們還有持續在做這個調查嗎還有研究嗎然後在現在國際情勢和經貿都是如此的競爭的情況下那你知道現在海外僑台商最新的意見究竟是什麼呢還有我剛剛提到這四個項目請問一下政府到底做了哪些"},{"start":10797.772,"end":10821.326,"text":"跟委員報告在111年就是2022年的那一次研究報告案事實上我們是跟中經院合作委託的案子所以那一次完了以後我們得到這個基本的database我們當然是要來執行一些事情那事實上六大洲的發展趨勢都很不一樣你以非洲跟歐洲來講雖然在同一個時區可是他的產業的形態"},{"start":10823.327,"end":10831.491,"text":"規模跟我們的僑民人數又差距很大過去曾經在非洲南非有7萬的僑民台商現在只剩下不到7000、6000多個人而已所以結構上是真的一直在變化當中所以這幾年我們也是一直配合國際的趨勢以及台灣的優勢在協助我們海外台商去調整他們的結構那這個幾年下來確實有一些進展"},{"start":10850.36,"end":10874.505,"text":"現在我們就沒有再委託做這麼大型的研究案了我們也沒有編那麼多的錢也沒有那個錢基本上是這樣講這個是前委員長時代他喜歡了解全球變化我們現在是轉換另外一種模式不花大錢但是一樣可以達到目標的就是我們跟各大州的州總會合作因為在他們下面會有一些"},{"start":10875.365,"end":10881.587,"text":"會員國跟會員所以我們是透過州總會我們還是有定期的比方說今年是因為對等關稅我們就透過這個系統來調查我們自己製造這個問卷然後透過州總會下放到所有他的這個各國總會以及會員然後再請他們回收回來我們來進行自己分析就沒有委託外面的學術團體去做這個大型的"},{"start":10903.335,"end":10913.722,"text":"這個研究案那不過這樣子做下來我們也覺得對於各州務實的了解其實還是有幫助所以做法上是不一樣但是持續有在做謝謝委員謝謝接下來請蔡易瑜委員上台質詢"},{"start":10937.155,"end":10940.217,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們是不是有請委員長有請委員長葉委員你好 蔡委員你好 不好意思委員長 老趙 這是今年的最後一天明年就是2026年我想要跟委員長來請委員長來協助一件事"},{"start":10962.106,"end":10972.375,"text":"就是事實上委員長也知道這個阿里山的火車他非常的有很具有價值觀光價值對他被紐約時報是獲選是2025年全球最值得去的52個一個觀光的勝地所以阿里山的火車包括二顏平步道小火車日出這個都是非常"},{"start":10986.687,"end":11009.754,"text":"然後整個歐美客也紐約時報直接說他是搭乘古早的車廂進入艙域的一個高商所以這個古早的車廂這個字眼是有意義的阿里山火車基本上是日本人興建當時日本人是為了要拿到阿里山的Hinoki把這些Hinoki運到日本"},{"start":11010.154,"end":11025.551,"text":"所以包括日本過去他們明治神功的大鳥居他後來是因為遭到雷擊有換新的所以他最原始的大鳥居就是阿里山的Kinoki包括現在日本他的國寶法隆寺"},{"start":11026.372,"end":11053.57,"text":"法隆寺裡面它的佛堂也是用阿里山的Hinoki所以當年可以看到日本很多珍貴的照片都是台灣的Hinoki然後花這些這樣再運送到日本去所以當年有這樣的一個阿里山火車那只是說日本當時留下的這個阿里山火車在現在我們台灣我們把整個發揚光大整個阿里山的一個火車的一個沿線每一個景點都是充滿特色的地方所以"},{"start":11056.432,"end":11075.757,"text":"我要跟委員長講的就是說阿里山火車絕對有資格變成世界的文化遺產絕對是有這樣的一個資格但是要進入世界的文化遺產就很遺憾的在聯合國的教科文組織裡面他們是沒有辦法讓台灣獨自來申請因為他們並不讓台灣當作聯合"},{"start":11079.698,"end":11095.204,"text":"聯合國的成員國我們不是這樣的一個會員國裡面縱使我們有這麼好世界的一個文化遺產的一個潛力這樣的一個地方而且阿里山鐵路我們知道它是從平地然後一直到高山3000公尺對 它在行經的過程還有所謂知識型的設計知識型的設計然後就挖卡車路對"},{"start":11105.748,"end":11132.315,"text":"所以這一些設計都可以看出說早年從日本人在設計這個鐵路的時候就充滿著他們的巧思所以我告訴委員長我們可以來拍片就是說我們應該是可以透過很多我們台灣在日本的這一些台僑們跟日本這邊的國會議員多接觸然後由日本跟台灣我們可以一起來申請所謂叫做跨國的世界文化遺產"},{"start":11133.135,"end":11153.831,"text":"這個idea很好跨國的意思就是說他是跨越國家那當然阿里山鐵路就是跨越日本跟台灣過去日本興建阿里山鐵路日本把台灣的Hinoki運送到日本讓現在日本的很多世界文化遺產基本上他都是用阿里山的Hinoki"},{"start":11154.571,"end":11158.994,"text":"我剛才說的法隆寺就是這個文化遺產所以這個代表一個整個木材這個木材串聯著兩個國家民族的感情串聯著兩個國家經濟的交流就是透過這條鐵路所以這個鐵路跟日本的木材的這一些種種的後續的這一些建築體內它本身就是一個構思"},{"start":11182.43,"end":11202.455,"text":"然後這個也有先例在世界的跨國文化遺產中有一個例子叫做絲綢之路絲綢之路這個當然是由中國然後他去串聯哈薩克跟吉爾吉斯這三個國家在2014年他們成功的跟聯合國申報了所謂絲綢之路就是從"},{"start":11203.456,"end":11219.811,"text":"長安然後一直跨到所謂天山南道這整個部位跨越好幾個國家然後這樣的一個路徑的一個網路就是過去我們在讀書的叫做思路嘛我們以前讀書就叫思路那這個就是全國首個跨國文化遺產"},{"start":11220.832,"end":11225.337,"text":"那現在這個這一個文化遺產他說他跨越了33個遺產點所以他就看出說他整體的文化保存的一個價值就在這裡那我認為是說既然我剛剛講了阿里山鐵路他帶有台灣跟日本兩個國家的歷史他們的共同的記憶點"},{"start":11239.71,"end":11255.691,"text":"以及現在各自發展的不同的一個差異點但是如果把這些東西融合起來由日本來日本是聯合國的會員國嘛由他來申請我們台灣就是跟著日本走那我們也一起來拼這條阿里山鐵路成為"},{"start":11256.472,"end":11267.246,"text":"台日之間跨國的世界文化遺產我覺得委員長這件事畢竟你常年可能都會在國外也會在日本我覺得如果你可以跟更多台橋一起來訴諸這樣的理念讓更多的日本國會議員也願意串聯起來來做這件事情我覺得是很有意義的"},{"start":11275.37,"end":11279.271,"text":"謝謝蔡委員你這個非常有創意的這個提議因為確實世仇之路他是以跨國的模式來進行申請的一個前例那有這樣的前例現在是不是阿里山這條具有歷史觀光文化產業價值的這個特殊的這個鐵路也有機會成為世界文化遺產我們"},{"start":11302.796,"end":11308.019,"text":"會進一步來努力看看是不是可以跨國的先合作我知道有日本非常多的鐵道迷還有鐵道相關的研究協會他們經常會來研究台灣的這個阿里山自治型的鐵路因為現在全世界還保有這種鐵路的這個架構還有建築的已經非常非常少了那以高山鐵路阿里山鐵路也是全國三大的高山鐵路"},{"start":11329.35,"end":11339.376,"text":"對真的是他有具獨特性他整個獨特性是夠的現在整個完全就卡住因為我們台灣不是聯合國的會員國我們無法申請所以我覺得這部分如果由日本來申請我們台灣這個是很有意義因為當時確實在日治時期是日本的這個政府去興建的這個鐵路然後"},{"start":11351.483,"end":11357.386,"text":"後來台灣也把它台灣的我們是把它發揚光大我們把它發揚光大把它台鐵也維護得很好現在當然是變成是觀光價值所以日本客人也很多人喜歡去阿里山我知道我們包括我們僑胞也很喜歡去阿里山大家都喜歡坐著日行的火車去到祝山然後去看日出這個確實是有列入世界文化遺產的價值我們會持續來跟外交部跟外交部"},{"start":11380.959,"end":11390.448,"text":"跟經濟部我們一起來合作要合作是要從日本發動你需要更多說服的力量我們會重力加速度來進行感謝謝謝蔡委員謝謝"},{"start":11399.799,"end":11425.346,"text":"以登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林大華委員陳永康委員黃仁委員徐巧欣委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請小委會以書面於兩周內答覆本日會議到此結束散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"166758","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166758","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb15678e6a7f7d73a44b1ecef7239bdfb16d53fbbf289ff3135d7dcd980b23cef445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:44:02 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謝謝主席這邊首先先有請司法院的李廳長還有書記廳的廳長"},{"start":18.319,"end":39.684,"text":"李聽長好這次大法官做出五人判決我想也引起了全社會的嘩然我首先想請教聽長你之前本來就是刑事庭的法官我想請問一下在一般你們做你們在合議庭裡面如果說法官有人拒絕評議的時候你們會怎麼處理"},{"start":42.492,"end":60.562,"text":"根據我們的經驗沒有發生這樣的事情如果有人拒絕評議你們會怎麼樣案子會一直擱著嘛是不是案子會被擱著等到有法官或是說是在換另外一個法官的時候加入評議你們才會開始審議"},{"start":63.547,"end":87.593,"text":"我們一直沒有這樣的經驗從來沒有過這樣的經驗民聽法官也沒有應該是您是民聽法官嗎我之前是辦理民視事務那也跟委員說明在我的審判經驗中我沒有遇過和議庭的法官拒絕參與評議的情形所以在你們規則裡面沒有針對如果說有法官拒絕評議的時候怎麼處理嗎"},{"start":93.665,"end":106.282,"text":"因為在一般的法院裡面其實我們會有因為一般的法院的法官人員會比較充裕假設 我說假設如果真的遇到有法官持續的拒絕參與評議"},{"start":107.904,"end":133.051,"text":"那可能在必要的情形下會去變動相關的事物分配那或者是就換別的法官來參與評議嘛對不對也就是你們還是要達到全部的法官都要這個一起參與評議才可以做成裁判才可以做成判決對不對按照你們現在做法不就是這樣嗎"},{"start":135.006,"end":153.162,"text":"委員在一般的法院法官緣而充足的情形但是憲法法庭沒有這樣子的狀況憲法法庭的大法官沒有其他沒有代理的問題所以要等到他補足了之後才開始審議嘛這是最簡單不過的道理"},{"start":160.578,"end":186.721,"text":"今天五人五位大法官做出的判決他就是明顯違反了不管是舊制或新制的限訴法的規定他就是一個違法的組成然後又做成了這個判決請問這兩位法官就是如果在一般的實務法事務上這個裁判如果說是違反這個法定的組織程序這個裁判是怎麼樣是不是自恥當仁無效"},{"start":189.192,"end":201.877,"text":"我們去講一般的法理如果是在一般法院部分是不會發生這樣的事情沒有啦 如果發生了呢這叫組織不合法的問題那可能就被上訴審就撤銷掉了啦"},{"start":205.404,"end":225.115,"text":"好 所以撤銷 所以就代表什麼 就還是違法嘛對不對 違法無效的判決才會被撤銷會因為組織不合法而被撤銷對 因為組織不合法而被撤銷好 那接下來我想請問針對大法官組織不合法所作成的判決誰來約束 誰來制衡違憲違法的大法官這個部分可能我們不太適合回答這個是憲法法庭的獨立的運作那可能我們現在我們有沒有這個規定嘛"},{"start":237.691,"end":266.405,"text":"我們憲法訴訟法裡面有沒有這樣規定針對違法違憲大法官違反這個組織法定程序所做出來的判決我們現在有沒有任何究竟程序我想跟您說明現在沒有一個大法官解釋或是憲法法庭的判決是組織不合法好很好也所以從我們行憲我們大法官會議組成以來到現在從來沒有出現過任何一例的五人判決對不對"},{"start":268.39,"end":283.258,"text":"我沒說錯吧 從來沒有過在過去 我們的大法官會議甚至還要達到四分之三或是三分之二的門檻才可以這個開始 這個會議組成到開始評議所以 提高大法官人數的門檻這個並沒有違法 也沒有違憲在過去就是這麼做 而且實施了非常長的一段時間"},{"start":298.7,"end":324.558,"text":"今天這五位大法官真的很勇敢很有勇氣他創了舉世無雙的案例我們現在看到從來沒有一個什麼憲法法院的會出現有在大法官明顯不足的情況之下讓自己跳下來做判決而且還可以說這個拒絕評議拒絕參與評議的法官他們不合群"},{"start":325.379,"end":344.858,"text":"所以排除一級我們五個人自己做就好了接下來這五個大法官如果說有兩個人認為說我今天這個參與我也不想參與評議或是我持反對意見好沒關係我也排除像三個大法官然後過半數一個大法官就可以做成判決了我在這裡想要告訴大家的是"},{"start":350.95,"end":374.119,"text":"我們中華民國的憲法法庭真的是鬧了全世界最大的笑話做了最荒謬的事情我都不知道未來其他的憲法法院德國 日本 法國等等這些憲法法庭或他們的憲法委員會來台灣參訪的時候你們要怎麼去講這個事情丟臉至極好 請回 兩位請回"},{"start":377.008,"end":403.026,"text":"那麼今天吳斯堯委員在他質詢的時候又躍提 跳題然後在批評我們今天所提出的這個《政務人員法》草案還有批評我提的《公投法》的修法以及昨天才提案的修憲案有關於要恢復人民有權可以提案罷免總統"},{"start":405.427,"end":428.915,"text":"我時常懷疑就是 我們這群民進黨的委員們他們到底了不了解什麼叫權力分立立法委員的職權 他的功能在哪裡是要去制衡行政權 卻要去監督行政部門今天我們的立法院裡面 我們看到民進黨委員"},{"start":430.219,"end":451.753,"text":"他們不僅沒有好好的去監督行政院為什麼不依法編列預算為什麼不依法執行反而處處在包庇行政權這是我感到非常遺憾而且也不齒的地方到底誰不事任"},{"start":453.885,"end":468.552,"text":"大家看得很清楚啊 民進黨的委員到現在為止 他們有沒有針對我們的這個相關的法案有提出對岸行政機關也是消極 完全不提對岸好 那接下來我要請全序部還有考試院是"},{"start":477.915,"end":503.322,"text":"秘書長在你們的報告裡面也講得很清楚從民國84年立法院作出決議要求考試院要提出相關的政務人員法草案之後從87年到101年你們曾經五度提案108年的時候其實權敘部自己也有再提了一次案只是說到了考試院然後後來也許找了行政院一起會商之後就沒有再提出了"},{"start":504.785,"end":524.456,"text":"過去認為政務人員法的主管機關考試院很有GAS擔當下來依據憲法的規定就是由考試院可以來作為政務人員法的這個主管機關政務人員的退府條例也是你們定的是什麼原因造成你們現在的立場大轉彎"},{"start":527.07,"end":542.749,"text":"其實過去你講那個以前那一段立法院的決議是大概30年前民國84年蠻久一段時間以前那當時考試院應該是尊重立法院的這個決議所以就開始進行這個工作那108年呢"},{"start":544.691,"end":556.741,"text":"那108年的部分當然就是說我們內部在討論以前有這個提案後來沒有一直沒有審過那所以全區部這邊要不要續推這個工作那在院裡面討論的時候因為我們一定要徵求行政院的意見"},{"start":557.916,"end":567.798,"text":"那這個時候跟行政院這邊就開始出現選擇上的區分 請問一下當時行政院的意見是誰的意見當時代表是誰 行政院主要是人事總署人事總署當時人事長是誰 人事長是就是現在的市部長所以市部長你當時在108年的時候你反對權敘部的提案那你現在當權敘部長的時候你當然自然而然也反對這個提案"},{"start":578.642,"end":590.086,"text":"變成說整個政務人員法沒有辦法推進看起來關鍵也是在施部長您身上也不只這樣因為你從之前你就反對到現在你也反對好 那接下來請教一下我想請那個蘇人事長好 人事長那個施部長認為考試院不適合擔任政務人員法的主管機關所以人事總處要扛下這個責任嗎"},{"start":608.459,"end":624.464,"text":"事實上 施部長也不是說他不適合沒有 我現在只問你你要不要扛下這個責任因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為"},{"start":636.534,"end":660.112,"text":"這個法案大體說明的時候有講我們現在各行各業都有專法唯獨政務人員法沒有專法政務官掌握多少的行政資源擁有多大的權利他的行為竟然可以不受規範更何況在我本席所提的政務人員法草案裡面我不是只有去約束限制政務官的行為我甚至還保障他的權利這些難道不應該定嗎"},{"start":665.236,"end":689.127,"text":"今天權序部失職人事行政總處也是怠惰看到我們這些法案早就提出來了吳委員的法案吳宗憲委員的法案在今年的六月就已經審查過到現在為止你們沒有任何動作沒有提出任何的對案之後我們通過了然後你們又說這都是立法委員提的案然後你們再去申請釋憲嗎"},{"start":692.366,"end":705.636,"text":"我真的很看不下去現在我們行政機關的這樣一個態度尤其是考試院請你們回去想想當時五權分立的這個國父創立五權憲法對考試院有多大的期待"},{"start":711.377,"end":733.758,"text":"結果你們現在完全鬆手一攤 完全就是不管只管文官 事務官對於真正擁有權力的政務人員 你們卻擺爛各位很棒 條件憲法實現上的確設計還是作為文官法庭接下來我要再請教監察院的兩位部長可以請回 請教監察院的"},{"start":738.944,"end":768.184,"text":"請問現在公職人員利益衝突迴避法裡面誰是主管機關哪一個機關是主管機關公務人員利益衝突迴避法本院財產承包處是主政的機關財法負責財法簡單來說可能就是監察院跟法務部反正你們當時推來推去那麼現在的這個利益衝突法有沒有處罰 罰款的規定有有吧然後有沒有彈劾的規定可以送懲戒的規定"},{"start":769.355,"end":797.069,"text":"對 如果認為說有缺失有嗎 所以在一個法律裡面同時出現有行政法 有懲戒法這並不衝突嘛不過要跟委員報告就是說因為在執行的層面上面我們常常會主管機關的解釋跟我們在裁罰執行的時候常常會有一些爭議所以我們才會在書面意見表達說如果可以的話這個部分其實是由主管機關來負責行政調查之後做出裁罰這樣的可能權責相符會是比較好的"},{"start":798.542,"end":822.662,"text":"這個部分我們之後可以再討論但是我只是要講就是說是在現行的法規裡面並不是說沒有這樣子的一個情況好那最後我可能最後一個問題我想請教法務部有關於隨機殺人的問題因為今天其實在之前的委員都已經有提到了所以我在這裡我就不重複我現在只是想要請教法務部的就是說有關於隨機殺人"},{"start":825.756,"end":829.117,"text":"殺人罪我們殺人罪有多久沒有修了殺人罪最近有修增加那個虐殺幼童的那一部分"},{"start":846.397,"end":866.15,"text":"除了越炸越痛之外對於像這種隨機殺人的犯罪行為過去到現在法務部從來沒有研擬要怎麼樣來規範相關的犯罪行為嗎我們要不要修殺人罪或者是說在殘害人群自罪條例裡面是不是也應該要修法"},{"start":867.23,"end":888.242,"text":"這個有關你委員關心這個有殘害人群自罪條例有相關的規定那另外但是它有針對像這種只是因為它是個殘害人群它是針對特定的團體但是對於不特定的多數人呢它這部分其實可以用刑法五四七條來做良形的一個重要的所以只是良形但是回到我剛剛講的犯罪構成要件的部分其實也要檢討啊"},{"start":889.997,"end":916.612,"text":"我們看到德國法國等等這些國家他們其實對於殺人罪的犯罪構成要件甚至把這種對於不特定的多數人以危險的方式去殺害殺人的這樣的這個犯罪構成要件他們都寫定在明定在這個殺人罪裡面所以本席的建議就是說希望你們能夠去好好的研議檢討隨機殺人就無差別殺人要不要"},{"start":917.632,"end":944.808,"text":"定定獨立的犯罪的罪名或者是說我們現在修正殺人罪或者是殘害人群治罪條例裡面的部分的這些這個犯罪的這個犯罪過程要件其實是可以再去針對我們剛剛講的無差別殺人的這樣的行為類型去做更具體的規範我覺得我們法務部不要怠惰好不好你們每年的立法計畫"},{"start":946.87,"end":972.409,"text":"應該把這些都要納入我們看那個外國立法一直這麼規定的會期的立法計畫可以把這個相關的殺人罪還有剛剛講差案人權之罪條例等等的規定都可以併入考量積極的去提出相關的這個修法不要每次都是跑在我們立法委員後面好嗎我們作為那個請你們要去進行檢討是好 以上謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166757","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166757","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb10d5762987ee5b970b1ecef7239bdfb16c0748ef97bdf766007496cb2378364c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:28:20 - 11:43:49","影片長度":"00:15:29","會議時間":"2025-12-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請法務部部長率所屬相關單位、司法院副秘書長、內政部警政署、行政院國土安全辦公室就「無差別攻擊犯罪事件之防治與量刑檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n(一)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「政務人員法草案」案。\n(二)委員羅智強等19人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案。\n【第（二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-31","start_time":"2025-12-31T11:28:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-31T11:43:49+08:00","duration":929,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-16"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1.81971875,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.7809687499999995,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8.35034375,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.40909375,"end":12.957218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.915343750000002,"end":13.598468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.602218750000002,"end":17.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.15909375,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":47.06159375,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.03284375000001,"end":122.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.42096875000001,"end":123.43784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":123.43784375000001,"end":132.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":132.51659375,"end":152.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":152.74971875,"end":153.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":154.16721875000002,"end":174.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":174.90659375,"end":177.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.78784375,"end":197.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":197.94096875000002,"end":215.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.39784375000002,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":221.56596875000002,"end":225.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.02096875,"end":226.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.62846875000002,"end":227.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.45534375000003,"end":237.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":238.08659375000002,"end":294.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.27534375000002,"end":245.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.40159375000002,"end":247.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":296.20409375,"end":298.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.02659375,"end":298.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":298.49909375000004,"end":299.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.73096875000005,"end":303.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":303.86534375,"end":340.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":340.29846875000004,"end":375.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":376.10721875,"end":376.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":377.40659375,"end":380.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":380.84909375,"end":414.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.33846875,"end":381.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":414.80159375000005,"end":415.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":415.52721875000003,"end":417.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":418.24409375000005,"end":421.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":421.87221875,"end":424.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":424.84221875000003,"end":440.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":440.82284375,"end":457.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.52034375000005,"end":459.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.99284375,"end":482.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.55471875,"end":486.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.38534375,"end":489.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.22034375000004,"end":491.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.93721875000006,"end":496.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":497.11784375,"end":507.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":507.59721875,"end":511.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":511.51221875000005,"end":515.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":515.4778437499999,"end":521.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":521.9072187500001,"end":522.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":522.95346875,"end":526.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":526.63221875,"end":539.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":540.2165937500001,"end":542.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":543.23721875,"end":545.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":545.31284375,"end":560.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":561.0065937500001,"end":568.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":568.56659375,"end":576.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":577.08846875,"end":578.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":578.4890937499999,"end":581.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":583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有請我們法務部 政部長司法院 廳長現在高升了嗎要不要快點 起來後就高升了"},{"start":17.344,"end":42.675,"text":"我想首先要來就教鄭部長還有我們李廷長就是說上一次本席在這個地方質詢就有關於整個兄弟姊妹這個特留份要不要廢除這樣的一個問題那最近我看藝人的部分潮汐平的部分社會上也討論得沸沸揚揚那上次我本席在質詢的時候也一直在提出一個所謂的這個被繼承人"},{"start":47.31,"end":73.643,"text":"還沒死亡以前對他有特殊貢獻的部分當初的質詢我是認為說如果全部都按照血緣那現行制度這個繼承人他的一個因紀份他的特留份這個部分如果要去做一個廢除的話可能要去做更多的一個學者跟專家來做一個討論我看今天媒體好像說已經這個研究報告已經出來了嘛 部長對"},{"start":75.144,"end":86.291,"text":"報告出來以後可不可以請你講一下方向未來我們準備可能我們法務部或者司法院這個地方大家認為說怎麼樣的一個制度那對我們整個台灣社會可能這個現行制度的一個變革"},{"start":93.576,"end":121.469,"text":"可能會未來這個社會比較能夠接受請問您的看法這個研究報告我還沒看過那個法律事務司他應該有這個資料那我想這個的確是剛才委員有關心到這個特留份 應濟份等等一些有關繼承的這個問題兄弟姊妹是不是貢獻度等等的這些的研究包括在日本或者其他的或者把特留份降低或者是廢止的這部分那我們現在就再嚴厲"},{"start":123.55,"end":130.956,"text":"那司法院這司法院我請教你們看我的想法就很簡單我的想法說本來大家都是靠血緣都是血緣 宅散"},{"start":133.112,"end":151.711,"text":"這個老伯貴新奇 還有小孩 配偶看起來這是整個社會裡面的一個組成裡面大家覺得好像是言之成理那你把兄弟姐妹的特留份把它給廢除掉啦那我們如果再去創設非繼承人非繼承人就是都一堆喔非繼承人告訴你們 我有留一堆"},{"start":154.233,"end":157.955,"text":"因濟財產在那個地方那很多人會講說 我也跟他很好耶他那個我都他在生意前喔我都陪他走路啦跟他在那裡泡茶啦啊生意成了不好的時候喔我就都這樣站在沙灘裡我都帶他去那個去公園那裡運動到時候如果碰到一個類似像這樣的案件的話會不會有"},{"start":178.857,"end":191.198,"text":"好多人來做這樣的一個主張制度的一個變革本來就是要好好的去做一個思考而且本席上次還有一點擔心就是說如果把兄弟姐妹的特留份把它給廢除掉的話"},{"start":192.762,"end":215.428,"text":"好像是宣告過去家庭的一個組成裡面兄弟姊妹這樣的一個緊密的一個結合的一個關係啊本來就疏離啊那好像是在外對外宣示兄弟姊妹其實在整個家庭的一個組成裡面他變成那麼的不重要這也是本行當初擔心的一個地方那現在委託學者專家的研究報告出來我不曉得司法院這邊的看法"},{"start":217.981,"end":237.186,"text":"委員很抱歉 因為我是刑事廳 所以民事的部分都通啦 刑事廳這條沒通 法理都一通百通我只能根據之前我們司法院出具的書面報告認為說民團在倡議兄弟姐妹的特留份的部分 我們司法院是沒有不同的意見"},{"start":238.146,"end":242.53,"text":"你們沒有不同的意見啊所以阿伯丁我們現在如果修法的時候你要看我知道你們內部還會再去做一個討論這個問題本來就是可以討論這個問題也沒有什麼在這個地方會吵架大家好像攻防的很劇烈不會只是說社會各個層面裡面要去關注要去關注"},{"start":258.744,"end":279.61,"text":"百年的一個制度的一個變革本來對社會會有衝擊你要用一套制度去把社會每一個個案去把它給含設進來確實是不容易但是我本席的一個建議就是說我比較擔心的是說一個家的一個組成那如果去把兄弟姊妹的特留份"},{"start":279.99,"end":292.216,"text":"你說把它給完全都給廢除掉的話是不是會動搖整個一個家庭的一個概念也許有些人覺得這個不重要的這也沒關係這個社會本來就是社會會不斷的去演變但只是說一個制度的一個變革裡面應該是更細緻啊"},{"start":296.603,"end":318.434,"text":"再來您就一定要提出版本你會提出來這個謝謝委員他那個事實上他那個研究報告是有七大的修法的一個建議啦當然有包括委員關心的那一部分其實七大建議包括配合居住權貢獻分的這部分還有特留份遺產分割前金錢存款債權的行使死後認領印記份價額請求權"},{"start":320.615,"end":344.168,"text":"等等還有自書遺囑那這部分我們剛收到這個研究的一個成果報告那我想我們會把它當作納入我們一個修法的一個重要的一個參考那明年明年初應該會過這個年漸漸十二月再幾天就明年就會盡快的啟動修法的程序對啦因為最後的過年的最後的一天本席到也認為說創設這樣的一個"},{"start":346.729,"end":353.694,"text":"有對於被繼承人他的一個特殊的一個貢獻那因為這樣子而取得部分的一個遺產這個我也認為合理啦那另外那個司法院請回我要再來今天那個范寶協會的執行長有來我想要特別來請教一下部長的就是說前陣子我看這個無差別的一個攻擊的一個悲劇也換取個人很大的一個這個一個危機的一個意識但是呢"},{"start":376.329,"end":390.262,"text":"其實要說關注的新聞在草上的都只是兇手但是受害者跟他的家屬是在悲劇發生的時候他們最痛我們更應該去聚焦的是說國家的手到底有沒有伸進來"},{"start":391.483,"end":397.685,"text":"那國家其實它也有溫度的一面 環保協會在第一線 第一時間去介入像譬如說一路相伴 專員 保護的志工即時的一個救援在第一時間裡面還有很多專業的培訓 像律師同步去投入那還有實質的一些補償 協助申請遺屬 補償金180萬"},{"start":415.629,"end":439.922,"text":"我要問的就是說那其實在中央來看的話好像是我們剛好有行政院這個院裡面中央會去做一個督導那各地方裡面我就比較擔心我們這個其實這個制度我們也看到了中央的決心我們看見了但比較擔心的是地方就是說"},{"start":440.919,"end":457.65,"text":"本法第18條要求地方政府去召開聯繫會議共同來推動業務我請執行長上來的意思就是說你們在地方上有沒有碰到什麼樣的一個困難需要部長跟你們幫忙協助的地方"},{"start":460.12,"end":465.762,"text":"謝謝委員的追尋那跟委員報告所以我們現在已經依法每年會定期召開的聯繫會議那在未來呢我們也會提高這個會議的頻率來透過會議對於案件的一個處遇的一個機制以及服務的模式來進行延伸那同時呢我們也會加強我們同仁對於這個地方政府可以提供的資源的一個熟悉度讓這個資源能夠更及時的對接"},{"start":489.329,"end":496.216,"text":"然後有效的運用我們也會努力建立這個更完善、更成熟的一個跨單位橫向聯繫的工作模式"},{"start":497.202,"end":526.038,"text":"我比較擔心的就是說我為什麼在講說地方的部分我們比較擔心就是說地方政府現在認為他只是協助的角色他認為你會感受到就是說這個會不會說我們一個地方單位對服務的一個不熟悉缺乏這樣保護的一個經驗就說明他的權責是一個模糊的他認為我只是一個協助的角色態度會不一樣那你這個位階不對等"},{"start":526.718,"end":529.36,"text":"就是你範保分會的位階會比較低啦你很難去有效的整合地方的一個局處啦像比如說開個會他認為我派個志工來那我到了整個議場裡面啊他們能夠扮演發揮的角色"},{"start":543.494,"end":566.829,"text":"我會覺得地方這樣子就比較可惜有沒有可能我們法務部就是我們法務部這個地方你就從中央帶頭你打通地方執行的最後一體路你像譬如法務部跟各目的世界主管機關應該主動建立一個合作的機制由上而下去下達指令給縣市應對的譬如說衛生局 勞動局跟社會局"},{"start":568.59,"end":580.578,"text":"你的指令如果不明確 地方分要怎麼進去我來我就 地方政府也覺得是 也覺得是協助的而已啊指令長難道你們沒有發現這樣的一個現象嗎"},{"start":583.346,"end":600.364,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上現在不是列席現在我們在法務部有督導犯保協會訂定犯罪被害人權益保障業務聯繫會議實際要點有保留四個常委常任委員的席次在各分會裡面有設證"},{"start":601.625,"end":623.275,"text":"警政 衛政 勞政那個都是他們就由地方政府這四個單位派他們的主管過來參與這個聯繫會議的一個開會那這個也是結合社會安全網的一個重要的機制那另外事實上我們其實除了這樣我們在檢查體系我們在峰會那個地檢署都會"},{"start":625.195,"end":650.908,"text":"會參與檢察長或者是聯席會議的一個主持會做這樣那法務部當然那個委員的關心這部分其實法務部是當他們的一個最後的一個後盾這包括預算人力啦或者是法規這部分有什麼問題我們會再做隨時的一個檢討來加強這些環保的分會的在服務這些犯罪被害人的這些的能量"},{"start":651.528,"end":679.528,"text":"部長其實我的主要的一個目的焦點就一個我們修法以後地方政府的角色已經不一樣了我們更應該讓地方政府來共同承擔這樣的一個責任這個必須要我們保護部我們再來加強好不好主席不好意思最後我要再請教一下我看這一次這一次的一個無差別攻擊的事件大家在討論"},{"start":680.769,"end":682.491,"text":"說這個細胞簡訊要怎麼發的一個問題那這個其實涉及到一方你說細胞簡訊要不要發當然要謹慎兩難你隨便發大家覺得說反而會造成恐慌"},{"start":696.326,"end":714.698,"text":"可是呢 你過度謹慎又變成拖延那尤其是擔心你說發佈簡訊會引起恐慌那我們更擔心的是說 民眾如果都是狀況外那才是真的叫做恐慌啊我看台北市政府他現在也那個指引也做出來了嘛那26號也送我們那個內政部了劉正博有來嗎 你們有來嗎"},{"start":718.201,"end":731.738,"text":"一般我們天然災害當然都是消防署那現在剛好你的法令還不夠齊全的時候那當然地方政府他就要創設一些指引那我想可能就因應這個跨年來的跨年你接下來還有一些像譬如說運動賽事你還有春節"},{"start":735.643,"end":752.47,"text":"很多啊 五花八門啊那我比較擔心的是說我們全國有沒有辦法制定一個標準這就被法務部我叫不定站在這裡比較沒意思部長先請回警政署都沒有派人嗎今天今天不是在談這個嗎今天有警政署是吧 好不好一分鐘我都主席都已經同意我了我的簡單的因為這個"},{"start":757.011,"end":759.992,"text":"中央如果沒有一個全國的一個指引外界會認為說你的卡車有夠慢人家地方政府都動起來了全國的標準我是覺得很重要尤其你看這個雙北甚至到那個季節你說一個兇手搞不好在捷運裡面他可能犯案的地點可能在新北"},{"start":781.44,"end":800.176,"text":"一下子三十幾分鐘以後就跑到台北市來了你說這個地方到底要不要發你說跑掉就好了 不是如果是在萬一又是在捷運上你總不可能台北發 新北沒發問題是你還沒有去掌握他到底人在什麼地方的時候這個部分會造成恐慌那跨區的部分我們如何"},{"start":804.48,"end":813.208,"text":"你內政部跟警政署去負起責任制定一個國家級的一個方案你總要整合出一個全國性的一個跨區發布的指引啊好不好 請說明謝謝委員那這個有關那個告警細胞這個部分他是要報到那個災防一個科技中心來做一個在整合那這個部分我們有在做反應可能會就他的一個"},{"start":833.524,"end":839.745,"text":"發布的一個時間 地點 相關的條件再做一個 做一個審慎的我現在意思就是台北市人家已經送了這算積極嘛 補破網嘛 這是好事嘛那你總要有一個全國性的啊各縣市都有可能我們不談各縣 談六都就好啦近近而已啊 很有可能啊 像在陶川很有可能啊那你怎麼樣有一個讓老百姓覺得說 我有政府在 我在怕什麼"},{"start":860.129,"end":879.195,"text":"除了這個建屋部內來幫他倒卡手好了 那我如果是地方政府的首長啊那我要請問啊 你的指引是什麼台北市有啦 新北市要不要有 桃園市要不要有你們總是要去制定一個比較國家級的方案你像譬如說那個標準 到底是什麼你現在說 有立即危險的 趕快發什麼叫立即危險"},{"start":883.507,"end":889.712,"text":"你不可以只是笑 你要想一下好不好 我們態度也不要讓人家感覺是拖延啦 這樣也不好的這個 我認為這個時間確實很難定 我都很清楚那就是因為很難定 那地方政府把你問題丟出來啦中央你總是要做一個統合嘛那整合出一個全國性的跨區域的這樣的一個資源我覺得很合理 趕快 好不好"},{"start":906.28,"end":927.131,"text":"包圍 因為這一個部分行政院已經有在做研議了相關部會都有在討論今天下午也會開會針對這個問題有做討論OK 那就盡數啦好不好這個是國人的一個保障他的一個安全尤其是碰到這樣的一個緊急大家覺得危險的時候心裡頭比較安心啦 好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166756","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166756","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb1958f96208ebcd09d29097fae15897403c0748ef97bdf766027a1751fd121cdf95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:33:34 - 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那我們是不是有請委員長有請委員長"},{"start":9.847,"end":34.512,"text":"葉委員你好 蔡委員你好 不好意思委員長 老趙這是今年的最後一天 明年就是2026年那我想要跟委員長來請委員長來協助一件事就是事實上委員長也知道這個阿里山的火車它非常的 很具有價值 觀光價值"},{"start":35.532,"end":63.231,"text":"他被紐約時報是獲選是2025年全球最值得去的52個一個觀光的勝地所以阿里山的火車包括二顏平步道小火車日出這個都是非常棒的地方然後整個歐美客也紐約時報直接說他是搭乘古早的車廂進入艙域的一個高商所以這個古早的車廂這個字眼是有意義的"},{"start":63.931,"end":81.231,"text":"阿里山火車基本上是日本人興建當時日本人是為了要木材運輸阿里山的Hinoki他把這些Hinoki運到日本所以包括日本過去他們明治神功的大鳥居那後來是因為遭到雷擊有換新的"},{"start":81.591,"end":98.75,"text":"所以它最原始的大鳥居就是阿里山的Hinoki包括現在日本它的國寶法隆寺法隆寺裡面它的佛堂也是用阿里山的Hinoki所以當年可以看到日本很多珍貴的照片都是台灣的Hinoki 這些"},{"start":101.552,"end":127.743,"text":"這樣再運送到日本去所以當年有這樣的一個阿里山火車那只是說日本當時留下的這個阿里山火車在現在我們台灣我們把整個發揚光大整個阿里山的一個火車的一個沿線每一個景點都是充滿特色的地方所以我要跟委員長講的就是說阿里山火車絕對有資格變成世界的文化遺產是"},{"start":129.885,"end":150.72,"text":"絕對是有這樣的一個資格但是要進入世界的文化遺產就很遺憾的在聯合國的教科文組織裡面他們是沒有辦法讓台灣獨自來申請因為他們並不讓台灣當作聯合國的成員國我們不是這樣的一個會員國裡面縱使我們有這麼好世界的一個文化遺產的一個潛力"},{"start":153.142,"end":169.213,"text":"這樣的一個地方 而且它阿里山鐵路我們知道它是從平地然後一直到高山三千公尺 對 它在行經的過程還有所謂姿勢型的設計姿勢型的設計 對然後就挖卡車 挖倒退路 這裡又站著對 對 對所以這一些設計都可以看出說早年從日本人在設計這個鐵路的時候就充滿著他們的巧思所以我告訴委員長 我們可以來拍名就是我們"},{"start":180.481,"end":196.342,"text":"應該是可以透過很多我們台灣在日本的這些台僑們跟日本這邊的國會議員多接觸然後由日本跟台灣我們可以一起來申請所謂叫做跨國的世界文化遺產"},{"start":197.163,"end":217.856,"text":"這個idea很好跨國的意思就是說它是跨越國家那當然阿里山鐵路就是跨越日本跟台灣從過去日本興建阿里山鐵路日本把台灣的Hinoki運送到了日本讓現在日本的很多世界文化遺產基本上它都是用阿里山的Hinoki"},{"start":218.456,"end":223.02,"text":"我剛才說的法隆寺就是這個文化遺產所以這個代表一個整個木材這個木材串聯著兩個國家民族的感情串聯著兩個國家經濟的交流就是透過這條鐵路所以這個鐵路跟日本的木材的這一些種種的後續的這一些建築體內它本身就是一個構思"},{"start":246.438,"end":254.98,"text":"然後這個也有先例在世界的跨國文化遺產中有一個例子叫做絲綢之路絲綢之路這個當然是由中國然後他去串聯哈薩克跟吉爾吉斯這三個國家在2014年他們成功的跟聯合國申報了所謂絲綢之路就是從"},{"start":267.464,"end":278.534,"text":"長安然後一直跨到所謂天山南道這整個部位跨越好幾個國家然後這樣的一個路徑的一個網路就是過去我們在讀書的叫做思路嘛我們以前讀書就叫思路那這個就是全國首個跨國文化遺產"},{"start":284.86,"end":311.992,"text":"那現在這個這一個文化遺產他說他跨越了33個遺產點所以他就可以看出說他整體的文化保存的一個價值就在這裡那我認為是說既然我剛剛講了阿里山鐵路他帶有台灣跟日本兩個國家的歷史他們的共同的記憶點以及現在各自發展的不同的一個差異點但是如果你把這些東西融合起來由日本來日本是聯合國的會員國嘛"},{"start":313.152,"end":338.981,"text":"由他來申請我們台灣就是跟著日本走那我們也一起來拼這條阿里山鐵路成為台日之間跨國的世界文化遺產我覺得委員長這件事畢竟你常年可能都會在國外也會在日本我覺得如果你可以跟更多台橋一起來訴諸這樣的理念讓更多的日本國會議員也願意串聯起來來做這件事情我覺得是很有意義的"},{"start":339.397,"end":343.298,"text":"謝謝蔡委員你這個非常有創意的這個提議因為確實世仇之路他是以跨國的模式來進行申請的一個前例那有這樣的前例現在是不是阿里山這條具有歷史觀光文化產業價值的這個特殊的這個鐵路也有機會成為世界文化遺產我們"},{"start":366.825,"end":371.288,"text":"會進一步來努力看看是不是可以跨國的先合作我知道有日本非常多的鐵道迷還有鐵道相關的研究協會他們經常會來研究台灣的這個阿里山自治型的鐵路因為現在全世界還保有這種鐵路的這個架構還有建築的已經非常非常少了"},{"start":388.201,"end":403.858,"text":"那以高山鐵路 阿里山鐵路也是全國三大的高山鐵路之一對 真的是 它有獨特性對 它整個獨特性是夠的現在整個完全就卡住因為我們台灣不是聯合國的會員國我們無法申請所以我覺得這部分"},{"start":404.378,"end":406.541,"text":"如果由日本來申請我們台灣跟在這個是很有意義因為當時確實在日治時期是日本的這個政府去興建的這個鐵路然後後來這個台灣也把它台灣的我們是把它發揚光大"},{"start":419.295,"end":439.183,"text":"我們把它發揚光 把它台鐵也維護得很好現在當然是變成觀光價值所以日本客人也很多人喜歡去阿里山我知道我們包括我們僑胞也很喜歡去阿里山大家都喜歡坐著日行的火車去到祝山然後去看日出這個確實是有列入世界文化遺產的價值我們會持續來跟外交部跟外交部"},{"start":444.986,"end":454.458,"text":"跟經濟部我們一起來合作要合作是要從日本發動需要更多說服的力量我們會重力加速度來進行感謝謝謝蔡委員"}]}},{"id":"166755","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166755","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb116940a5a24eaf8af29097fae15897403c0748ef97bdf76600853a9f02a015eae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"11:22:09 - 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有請委員長請委員長"},{"start":9.028,"end":20.757,"text":"林委員,你好委員長好委員長,上一次上個月的時候我在這邊曾經向你救教有關僑委會海外信保基金的問題是因為上一次的時間比較來不及詢問完整所以我想說依照這一個再來詢問相關的問題委員長,相信你一定非常清楚海外的信保基金是僑委會協助海外發展給具有潛力還有欠缺擔保品的僑台商提供的一個信用保證"},{"start":38.409,"end":59.22,"text":"幫他們順利的取得銀行的融資但是問題是這六年來海外信保基金的業績卻一直在嚴重的下滑雖然目前的淨值額仍然是充足的照我看本院的預算的中心報告資料裡面有發現如果海外信保基金用113年底的淨值額"},{"start":61.201,"end":64.643,"text":"24億元來換算表示這個基金可負荷的保證金已達240億了如果再用114年7月底可負荷的保證金餘額來算的話來看這樣目前這個基金其實還有78億的淨值可以使用"},{"start":80.09,"end":89.959,"text":"而且也是就等於是高出113年底的三倍之多所以上一次我在業務報告的時候也是有詢問過委員長說你們是否考慮對海外信保基金減資避免成為錢坑但委員長你的答覆是說因為114年的績效不佳"},{"start":98.467,"end":101.689,"text":"因為那個時候美國川普對等關稅的影響才會讓這個企業都不願意增加投資然後也導致了整個信保基金乘坐上面的案件的績效非常的差所以我在想說因為美國川普總統實施的對等關稅讓這些喬台胞到現在都還在觀望"},{"start":116.499,"end":123.902,"text":"那是不是意味著川普的對等關稅的措施確實讓我們海外的橋台商這些經濟投資的發展的情況真的是不好呢否則今年已經是今年是最後一天了嘛那從橋委會今天的報告來看的話完全看不出橋台商的產業發展的情況那我想請問一下橋委會的海外信保基金今年最後總共到底是乘坐了多少件數整體的業績"},{"start":145.089,"end":166.711,"text":"有沒有請我們侯董事長來跟您說明好來請委員好那這邊跟委員報告就是我們事實上今年的話到11月底是總共承保了317件那整個銀行收入金額是2億3千4百多萬那相較去年的話去年的話整個全年度是348件2億5千多萬"},{"start":167.372,"end":184.81,"text":"那我們預計到年底的話應該會比去年會稍微再成長一些那基本上是業務上應該是沒有問題那至於說剛剛委員提到說倍數問題那事實上以過去來看的話大概依照今年到11月底的話我們整個那個保證倍數大概3.18倍啦"},{"start":186.131,"end":202.008,"text":"雖然說我們那個所謂的上限到10倍可是如果假設是以這個10倍來算的話因為剛剛我們也提到我們大概進行到24億那變成說我們整個要保證到所謂的大概差不多到242億這樣的一個金額的話那因為我們現在貸償率大概是1.4%"},{"start":203.55,"end":224.161,"text":"所以假設這個待場率全部都是我們要去待場的話那事實上我們大概每年可能就是要去待場達到3.39億的這樣一個金額那事實上這樣一個金額可能會造成我們整個季節虧損所以因為這樣的狀況所以我們事實上整個那個保證倍數我們上次逐步來增加可是也要去考量我們整個這個一個待放能量跟這個一個壽性品質以上"},{"start":225.359,"end":231.562,"text":"因為今年的10月初其實才發生了川普對等關稅的經貿的問題到現在也是還沒有解決但是因為我們美國對台的這個部分因為他還沒有完全公佈完今天當然是2025年的最後一天我們也一直都知道說他已經要公佈但是要選擇公佈是美方我們也不能push他說你要趕快公佈"},{"start":249.431,"end":258.416,"text":"那但是到目前為止我們承作的案件確實在海外到目前為止有314件委員你這個資料因為是7月底而已7月底才190件嘛那所以到目前為止是確實11月底有300多件已經上來了那承作的概念是說委員是這樣子我們沒有什麼減不減資的問題我們跟一般的銀行不一樣因為我們是在做信用保證而已所以是用這一筆基金"},{"start":278.728,"end":285.272,"text":"來作為信用保證的基礎所以如果我信用的保證基金額度過低那銀行就不想跟我玩了他說你就沒有能力啊你沒有代償能力的時候我還讓你做保那不是做假的嗎所以這是為什麼我們在2017年會有那個增資計畫原來我們的基金不到10億後來在2017年為了要提高這個額度"},{"start":303.584,"end":305.106,"text":"貸款的這個受信額度當時配合新南向因此行政院通過了20億增資計畫那這20億增資計畫經過現在8年了我們事實上只有增到22億就停止就沒有再增加"},{"start":318.621,"end":323.804,"text":"所以我一直看說這樣也不是辦法所以我今年就確定說要親自出馬去遊說我們這些民間的這個公股跟民股的行庫他們因為要捐款捐到4成我政府才能有這個相對6成的公務預算撥補那所以今年我好不容易已經募到7000多萬了"},{"start":341.136,"end":358.005,"text":"這個確實我們公股行庫也好我們的民營行庫也好今年又給我們捐了一筆錢那所以我才能對等編了一億零五百萬不過到現在因為立法院沒有審查通過所以如果沒有過我這個錢就不能這個撥補所以我的基金規模就變成只有停在23億而已"},{"start":360.033,"end":365.799,"text":"我針對就是說當然海外信保基金最主要是要協助僑民還有僑台上取得資金這是大家都知道的但是代償的餘額一直在上升這樣有沒有什麼就是你們有沒有研議怎麼追償的這些機制以減少損失有沒有什麼策略"},{"start":377.99,"end":385.057,"text":"有 我們是全中華民國唯一一個這個追群這個就是說代償的企業是終身的因為其他的銀行 行庫他們就只有20年20年沒有他們就打為代賬但是呢 信保基金 海外信保基金我們不是 我們是終身所以只要他"},{"start":399.89,"end":403.233,"text":"的個人的這個帳戶裡面有出現錢我們就會馬上去把它扣回來或者它有任何資產我們就會終生把它追究那事實上我們的待藏的比例其實是沒有增加的"},{"start":415.285,"end":443.216,"text":"是總金額看起來有增加原因是因為我們案件量越來越多嘛因為幾十年來累積的嘛所以那個累積如果每年有多一件那一件就會持續一直加上去但是我們也有繼續追回來一些錢喔這不是沒有但是來回之間這是為什麼我基金規模要有一定的額度我才能得到這個信任感讓大家覺得說我這個信保基金是有能力不會做到一半我自己就垮掉的"},{"start":443.936,"end":459.403,"text":"原因在這裡但是我們現在對於案件的審核機制我們有更好的模式讓他變成呆帳的機會就越來越少了這部分我們有在努力當中謝謝那我再問一個問題就是僑委會在111年的時候有委託一個中經院做了一個僑商參與台灣場合合作的意向的調查分析然後這個報告是在112年的時候有公布針對了全球的六大洲"},{"start":472.168,"end":477.831,"text":"橋台商對於台灣的產業的產學合作的意向所以當然我知道橋友會是要透過這個調查來了解台商企業的營運的趨勢還有動態還有只要是說看怎麼樣去連結海外的橋台商的跟與台灣的產業的共同的發展但是我看了這個報告內容有指出有五成的受調的亞洲橋台都認為需要培訓人才"},{"start":497.239,"end":501.842,"text":"然後有五成的北美的他希望透過技術移轉提升產品的價值然後有六成的歐洲橋台商他是希望期待新創企業的對接的合作平台然後四成的非洲橋台商他是希望能夠提供"},{"start":512.768,"end":515.43,"text":"學生建教的實習的機會還有授課演講與經驗的分享那我只是想請教一下我園長就是明年明天就是等於115年了嘛這三年來本席有發現僑委會都沒有再更新最新的"},{"start":528.178,"end":530.7,"text":"這個整個資料請問一下你們還有持續在做這個調查嗎還有研究嗎然後在現在國際情勢和經貿都是如此的競爭的情況下那你知道現在海外橋台商最新的意見究竟是什麼呢還有我剛剛提到這四個項目請問一下政府到底做了哪些"},{"start":547.789,"end":571.343,"text":"跟委員報告在111年就是2022年的那一次研究報告案事實上我們是跟中經中經院合作委託的案子所以那一次完了以後我們得到這個基本的database我們當然是要來執行一些事情那事實上六大洲的發展趨勢都很不一樣你以非洲跟歐洲來講雖然在同一個時區可是他的產業的型態"},{"start":573.084,"end":576.965,"text":"規模跟我們的僑民人數又差距很大過去曾經在非洲南非有7萬的僑民台商現在只剩下不到7000、6000多個人而已所以結構上是真的一直在變化當中所以這幾年我們也是一直配合國際的趨勢以及台灣的優勢在協助我們海外台商去調整他們的結構"},{"start":595.552,"end":599.197,"text":"那這個幾年下來確實有一些進展那現在我們就沒有再委託做這麼大型的研究案了是我們也沒有編那麼多的錢也沒有那個錢基本上是這樣講那這是前委員長時代他喜歡"},{"start":612.215,"end":631.953,"text":"這個了解全球這個變化那我們現在是轉換另外一種模式不花大錢但是一樣可以達到目標的就是我們跟各大州的州總會合作因為在他們下面會有一些會員國跟會員所以我們是透過州總會我們還是有定期的比方說今年是因為對等關稅我們就透過這個系統來調查我們自己製造這個"},{"start":638.639,"end":662.027,"text":"問卷然後透過州總會下放到所有他的這個各國總會以及會員然後再請他們回收回來我們來進行自己分析就沒有委託外面的學術團體去做這個大型的這個研究案那不過這樣子做下來我們也覺得對於各州務實的了解其實還是有幫助所以做法上是不一樣但是持續有在做謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166754","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166754","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb16ef06590a853415eb1ecef7239bdfb16c0748ef97bdf7660210c2463ee6481985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:06:47 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憲判八號又不是你做出來的我們只是就事論事來告訴大家憲判八號之後我就問部長嘛判決死刑有沒有變得比較困難有沒有我們先從小的開始說起"},{"start":187.435,"end":214.928,"text":"他這部分判決死刑這邊有沒有比較困難這個是個案的一個...我也知道你會這麼回答應該是司法院的審判的一個程序跟結果有比較困難嗎如果是對嚴重之罪來講他應該判決死刑那是罪責相當的問題啦那自己說相關的一些程序的保障我覺得由個案來判斷啦是不意外的回答啦但是也尊重你們因為確實不是你們的職權啦"},{"start":216.363,"end":241.191,"text":"可是我今天就要告诉大家为什么社会大众认为是实质判死实质废死的判决我从几个具体的事情来告诉大家我们先回到今天12月19号的这一出凶杀案类似的情况跟政杰的状况有类似吧 厅长就目前知道的状况是蛮类似请问政杰被判了什么"},{"start":242.234,"end":266.977,"text":"判死刑 而且是執行了對 三審判死刑執行在現判八之前還是之後在現判八之前之前 非常好這就是一個重要的準據現判八之前像鄭捷這種案子他會被判死刑而且會被執行但是現在因為那個凶犯已經死了所以不知道這是未來是不知道"},{"start":267.83,"end":296.17,"text":"可是我再想請教一下廳長順便請教一下部長台版柬埔災案廳長知道吧我來舉重民眾我先不比較哪一個案件凶殘這個12月19號的案件凶殘還是台版柬埔災案的案件凶殘我來問一些具體事實請問台版柬埔災案案件當中死了多少人死了幾個人來 部長知道嗎 不知道"},{"start":298.693,"end":325.339,"text":"應該是三位三位 我告訴你今年初發現多一位所以你的資訊已經落後了今年發現多一位案發時三位被虐待死亡我想請教被拘禁凌虐多少人多少人六十幾人六十一人詐騙金額多少四億"},{"start":327.335,"end":350.466,"text":"多少被詐騙的受害人266位我要問最後問這個案件有沒有令人髮指部長拘禁毒打然後禁食然後未毒不從就打虐待到死關61個人詐騙4億"},{"start":358.01,"end":379.8,"text":"是不是令人髮指部長底下是非常可惡非常可惡 廷長是不是令人髮指我認同我直接跟廷長跟部長說簡直叫聞所未聞啦我真的說實在話我還真然找到比這個更凶殘的案件台灣發生過關61個人的案件嗎 請問廷長"},{"start":386.175,"end":409.583,"text":"拘禁61個人凌虐的案件台灣發生過嗎有沒有發生過有沒有發生過我的印象中是沒有答案就是沒有還虐待4個人死亡有沒有發生過廳長沒有發生過夠凶殘吧夠可惡吧夠令人髮指吧來請教今年10月三層定宴判決什麼"},{"start":413.98,"end":439.056,"text":"無極獨行 主嫌免死確判 逃死確定殺了四個人 官虐六十一個人詐騙四億 兩百六十六人受害如此罪行滔天 令人罰則案件 現判八號出來以後免死確判了這第一個喔 我是用個案先來做比較喔那我再問"},{"start":443.015,"end":471.637,"text":"那回到今天的1219的案子人家人民心裡怎麼想好 當然啦 個案未必能夠完全比負嘛 對不對 廷長對不對那個個案的情節不是完全一致啦對啦這部分他事情居然致死的部分對 沒關係對 這我也認同啦兇殺1219兇犯就已經死掉啦然後我再請教部長"},{"start":472.284,"end":500.542,"text":"那我從另外一個 我不從個案來講因為部長 我告訴你 我跟你質詢很多次了我剛剛看吳宗憲跟你質詢你們一直講的一點是說沒有實質廢死原因很簡單 就是剛剛廷長講的有三件事情有被判死刑嘛 對不對是三審定業嗎不是嘛被執行了嗎 會被執行嗎 目前不會嘛 因為三審都還沒定業根本沒到執行的階段更何況部長還有多少已經三審定業的還沒執行的"},{"start":502.915,"end":525.761,"text":"36個啊 36個 對嘛那我再拉回來喔我想請教一下 你知道2000年到2015年就是民進黨執政之前你知道每年平均有多少位殺人犯三審判死 多少位部長知道嗎 這邊我沒有統計資料警長知道嗎 不知道 我告訴你3.25位三個多啦 三審判死"},{"start":532.042,"end":558.761,"text":"那我想請教兩位喔現判八號是去年九月二十三號做出來嘛 對不對到現在一年三個月了一年三個月了請問多少三審判死的案件 多少庭長多少三審判死多少 現在沒有沒有嘛 零嘛現在還在最高法院的有 還在你等到判了出來再告訴我 就是零嘛就是零嘛"},{"start":561.468,"end":582.375,"text":"之前3.25位 當時政黨輪替 政黨輪替後也就掉到0.25也很低了啦 就民進黨執政之後也很低了可是很低也是0.25一年0.25位現在一年三個月0所以今天我要跟部長說 我舉個例子"},{"start":587.073,"end":611.946,"text":"2022年新竹市正義輪胎案發生縱火死了多少人死了多少人8個人這個兇嫌他欠債跟家庭吵架買汽油返家縱火母親妹妹七小大嫂子女喪生火海然後呢一審判決的是什麼"},{"start":614.093,"end":639.947,"text":"一審判什麼死刑嘛 對不對好 來啦你知道高院在審理的時候他改判什麼改判什麼無期徒刑啦高院是改判無期徒刑高院的理由是什麼他是有自首的問題其中一個理由他引述了憲判八號限縮死刑範圍的這個判決"},{"start":642.813,"end":669.175,"text":"他直接引用憲判8號耶在憲判8號沒有出來的時候還沒這個理由改判當然可能有別的理由啦 剛剛部長也有講可是他直接又用了憲判8號作為改判免死的理由到了最高法院今年2月6號最後請問這位凶嫌的判決定讞的結果是什麼無期徒刑啦"},{"start":671.206,"end":700.778,"text":"免死確判嘛對不對免死確判所以我回頭要告訴部長也告訴廳長實質廢死這件事情他講的是今天剝離了今天受害者的冤屈剝離了被害者家屬受的冤屈大幅的提高了死刑判決尤其是三審判死的難度我都還沒算執行耶我都還沒算執行耶"},{"start":702.324,"end":730.647,"text":"所以才稱之為實質廢實判決所以我真的拜託部長也拜託廳長人民的聲音為什麼那麼憤怒就是因為我們看到這個現在的我們的刑事司法體系尤其在大法官做出憲法8號判決之後非常嚴重的傾斜向加害者對加害者保護無微不至啊但是呢有看到受害者"},{"start":731.823,"end":748.838,"text":"今天在地下枉死的冤苦嗎今天我看到受害者家屬日日夜夜走不出傷痛的悲區嗎所以我還是拜託部長因為剛剛看到您跟吳宗憲委員尤其針對實質廢止這個題目"},{"start":751.66,"end":768.891,"text":"我覺得你蠻生氣的啦我不是針對十指會死喔他是說檢察官是幫被告求免死這一點我是非常的這個每一件都是檢案求死刑後來當然未必那個後來的結果沒有合到我們的一個求死刑的一個理念"},{"start":770.912,"end":794.437,"text":"那個不一樣 剛才是說我們檢察是在辦公室吹冷氣警察在外賣命 檢察在吹冷氣 檢察在幫被告求名詞這種我一定要嚴正的一個駁制喔 這個我必須要做一個聲明部長 我分兩段講 你跟他兩段交鋒啦你後面是更生氣啦 看得出來啦前面講到實質廢死的時候 你是表達強烈不認同啦"},{"start":795.083,"end":824.227,"text":"沒錯吧這個本來就是沒有實質的會死的問題所以我在跟你講嘛我沒有 我們要否定如果說有實質會死的話那我們為什麼檢到求死刑沒見 這個沒見的都是求死刑我沒有說一二審的法官也是在判死刑有三件部長 你就說真的有時候我都覺得你的角色搞得不太清楚我又不是在指責你我從頭到尾都指責你嗎不是嘛你檢察官針對一些凶殘的案件求出死刑我沒有否定你啊"},{"start":825.933,"end":852.561,"text":"我沒有否定你啊 但是我講的是不是事實廳長都想 到現在為止一審判三個死刑嘛 三個嘛 沒錯吧一審二審 一審二審加起來三個嘛一審二審加 剛剛廳長講三個啊 有多嗎三件嘛 三件嘛所以法院好像是要判一審 國民法官也是判死刑沒關係啊 我跟部長說 交給社會公平嘛"},{"start":854.005,"end":876.496,"text":"我就跟你講2000年到2015年三審定驗判死就是3.25個啊你現判到現在一年三個月就是0個啊你跟我講一審二審判決 天堂都講了啊判了以後會執行嗎 不可能嘛沒有三審判之前都不可能執行嘛三審判了之後也不一定執行嘛"},{"start":878.471,"end":905.886,"text":"這一點部長你總不否認吧我想是事實問題吧沒錯吧沒有不執行啊這個就還有一些救濟程序在處理中就36個還沒執行嘛我也沒否定你啊你執行了一個嘛我跟你講部長我今天在這邊我夠溫和了啦沒錯吧為什麼因為我也不想跟你再做很多的爭執因為我只是要把具體事實平平靜靜的清清白白清清楚楚的把它呈現出來就像社會公爵幾個重點"},{"start":907.489,"end":930.994,"text":"第一個 憲判八號之前像鄭捷這個案子就會判死並執行第二個重點今天到現在為止確實憲判八號有宣判死刑就一審二審三個案子這三個案子都還沒到三審定讞第三個事實三審定讞憲判八號之後就是一個都沒有第四個事實2000年到2015年每年3.25個"},{"start":935.035,"end":961.681,"text":"三省判死現在這過去一年三個月零個這第四個事實第五個事實現在有36個人死囚在年任內還沒執行這些都是鐵針針的事實叫不叫實質廢死判決不用羅志強說我想也不完全需要部長來說社會大眾來去公判啊讓我們的受害者家屬去想一想啊我們有沒有嚴重的傾向加害者 謝謝"},{"start":964.022,"end":964.225,"text":"好 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12:25:11","影片長度":"00:08:27","會議時間":"2025-12-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請法務部部長率所屬相關單位、司法院副秘書長、內政部警政署、行政院國土安全辦公室就「無差別攻擊犯罪事件之防治與量刑檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n(一)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「政務人員法草案」案。\n(二)委員羅智強等19人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案。\n【第（二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-31","start_time":"2025-12-31T12:16:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-31T12:25:11+08:00","duration":507,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-16"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.712218750000002,"end":16.079093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.21409375,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.15909375,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.925968750000003,"end":24.769718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.769718750000003,"end":34.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.32096875,"end":35.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.67096875,"end":64.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.15596875,"end":72.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.76221875,"end":76.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.52534375,"end":79.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.68096875,"end":83.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.30471875,"end":88.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.05096875000001,"end":88.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.08471875000001,"end":88.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.60346875,"end":90.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.08846875,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.18659375000001,"end":139.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.65471875,"end":192.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.15284375000002,"end":251.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.12659375,"end":272.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.29221875,"end":275.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.89971875000003,"end":286.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.23159375,"end":282.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.24846875000003,"end":285.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.61846875000003,"end":301.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.68596875000003,"end":291.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.55034375,"end":294.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.56721875,"end":295.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.45221875000004,"end":302.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.75159375000004,"end":309.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.94034375,"end":310.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.36221875,"end":344.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.06096875000003,"end":321.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.11221875,"end":352.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.03471875,"end":355.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.62409375000004,"end":366.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.53909375,"end":393.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.12971875000005,"end":406.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.61721875,"end":418.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.88534375,"end":424.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.46221875000003,"end":426.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.47909375,"end":455.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.90471875000003,"end":430.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.24221875,"end":430.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.10721875,"end":464.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.72721875,"end":458.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.96346875,"end":459.03096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.36346875000004,"end":497.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.34971875,"end":505.85909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.00659375000004,"end":507.52971875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.865,"end":16.711,"text":"這些我們先請部長 法務部部長請鄭部長"},{"start":24.136,"end":47.517,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長這一次我們從1219的這個張文的案件來去檢視雖然說張嫻已經死亡 那已經進入相關的程序不過這個案件讓我們思考到一個良形架構上面的問題所以想請教部長 在我們的刑法或者是良形的實務上法官他們在良形的時候會參考他的犯罪動機"},{"start":48.718,"end":71.641,"text":"但是會有一個弔詭的現象如果是因為仇殺如果是因為情殺或者是因為財務的關係有一個明確的可非難的動機的話那這時候良心他可能會被認為是惡性重大來去加重可是如果在無差別殺人的話因為被害人是隨機的動機甚至可能是模糊的還不確定"},{"start":72.862,"end":98.456,"text":"甚至可能會用精神不穩或沒有針對性而導致有可能判決比較輕換句話說在現行的架構之下有一種可能就是他如果去謀殺一個有仇恨的人可能會比殺害一個素不相似的路人判得更重有這樣的可能性可能這個部分在一般民眾的這種情感上比較沒有辦法去認同"},{"start":99.477,"end":124.828,"text":"那韓國的大法院的兩行委員會他的做法是不太一樣的請部長可以參考一下他們把殺人罪依據動機他分五種類型那其中第三類的類型就是我們剛才提到因受譴責動機之殺人所以就是我們剛才提到的仇殺情殺或者是未裁殺人另外有第五種類型就是極端漠視人命之殺人那專門針對"},{"start":126.189,"end":144.989,"text":"無差別攻擊這種不特定多數人的下手的犯罪所以第五類型的良型的區分跟第三類型是把它分開的而且同樣屬於最嚴重的等級五個類型我們簡單講就是第一個就是情有可原 可動盡殺人例如長期受虐的反應"},{"start":145.589,"end":171.105,"text":"第二種類型是一般動機之殺人例如家庭糾紛、嫉妒第三類型是因受譴責動機之殺人例如剛才提到的為財、為組織利益第四類型是結合其他重罪之殺人跟我提到的第五類型極端漠視人命之殺人所以韓國的制度設計是認為說針對不特定多數人的攻擊本身就是一個極惡的理由"},{"start":171.545,"end":191.201,"text":"光是這種漠視人民的態度本身就足夠成為加重量刑的理由所以想請問部長針對這個部分你的看法是什麼樣就是這個問題我們訪問部是不是有相關的研究或者說我們現行的這個架構之下無差別殺人會不會因為缺乏明確的可非難動機在量刑上面沒有得到適當的評價"},{"start":192.582,"end":209.97,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想這個量刑是屬於司法院的職長因為它是判決的量刑那法務部當然我們會要求檢察官依照相關的規定譬如說我們有一個提示檢查運用求刑應行注意四項檢察機關辦理刑事訴訟法應行注意四項第101條第二項"},{"start":211.411,"end":237.933,"text":"第125條以及檢察機關辦理重大刑事案件注意事項第7條的規定 具體求刑我想這個是針對像委員關心的像那些惡性重大或者嚴重妨礙社會治安的像這種隨機殺案的這種案件我想這部分我們會再檢討在這些求刑的這部分來做更加的細緻的劃分這部分剛才委員有提到說到底隨機殺案比較可惡還是仇殺比較可惡"},{"start":239.194,"end":251.255,"text":"這個可能要見解不同我們但是以製造社會恐慌的這邊來講那個隨機殺人的確是會引起比較大的嚴重危害影響社會治安這部分我們會更精緻的來做一個檢討"},{"start":252.422,"end":276.389,"text":"謝謝部長因為部長我們剛才講到的都是一個是行為樣態那跟動機樣態不太一樣那韓國的方法當然是會把動機的樣態放進去那當然這一部分可能跟這個法務部或者是跟司法院當然各自有各自執掌的範圍那剛才部長是說在你們可以直屬的這種檢查體系下面來去具體求刑那在司法院的部分我們是希望"},{"start":277.009,"end":286.218,"text":"司法院能夠來去考量到這個韓國的這個司法院今天有來不好意思今天有來不好意思 麻煩也請司法院 對不起"},{"start":292.467,"end":316.401,"text":"那剛才部長有就他們的體系部分在酋刑方面我們是希望說可以從行為樣態考量到動機類型那在法務部之外司法院的看法是怎麼樣在司法院有關於辦理刑事案件量刑的審酌事項裡面我們已經把被害人的被害人的多寡被害人的損害程度或是對治安有重大影響部分當成一個重重量刑的因子"},{"start":316.841,"end":343.719,"text":"那我再可以舉一個例子在憲判八裡面的理由裡面曾經提到一個歷史什麼叫做情節最嚴重之罪他包括了無差別性的殺人他就歷史的這個就是一個沒有動機的無差別性的殺人這一個是屬於最嚴重情節最嚴重之罪的一個歷史情形所以他剛剛委員所指教的說因為仇殺那當然是一個謀殺那個當然是情節嚴重但是如果是無差別性他也是把他當成一個情節嚴重之罪你知道嗎"},{"start":345.077,"end":349.687,"text":"謝謝 謝謝廷長那接下來我們請這個警政署我們簡單的快速來針對異常犯罪的統計的政策規劃我們快速來請教"},{"start":363.019,"end":379.539,"text":"主長好主長我們針對這個韓國的刑事政策研究院他們在2004年初2023年底他有發了一個研究報告他是針對異常動機犯罪進行這個類型化的分析一樣他分成三類型第一個是社會不滿型占16.7%"},{"start":381.241,"end":405.072,"text":"犯罪者是對社會是有敵意憂鬱的狀態第二種是持續憤怒型是46%但是犯罪者容易誤解他人在憤怒中犯案其中40%有6次以上的前科所以這是數字從數字上面來去做政策的研擬第三種是精神障礙大概是37.5%這個分類的意思就是說我們不同類型需要不同的預防的策略"},{"start":406.753,"end":421.231,"text":"如果像是社會不滿行我們可能就要用資源政策透過社區外展把這些人拉回社會持續分入刑就是有犯罪前科要參考英國的多機關公共保護安排我想請教一下我們現在的相關的統計數據是怎麼樣有這樣類似的區分嗎"},{"start":426.762,"end":454.814,"text":"報告委員這個相關的數據我們可能回去要再做一個統計我沒有要數據我是要有沒有相關的區分因為說如果我們的統計數據都沒有這樣的區分的話那我們政策工具就很難去執行比如說現在警政系統有沒有針對無差別攻擊或異常動機犯罪有沒有獨立的統計分類還是都被歸類為一般傷害罪一般的傷害罪裡面我想這個要有一個統計的數據就是說我們依刑法罪的分類裡面有沒有獨立的無差別攻擊的類別"},{"start":457.133,"end":477.07,"text":"我們在做犯罪紀錄的時候都會做一個分類包括犯罪動機的類型的有沒有備註去欄位我剛剛提到這些因為是比較細部的犯罪就是我剛剛提到至少有三種不同的類型我們希望說除了說無差別攻擊這些之外我們更細部裡面要把它的犯罪類型"},{"start":477.751,"end":503.061,"text":"把它做一個更細部的統整那我們才知道說以後不是只有警政署的工作哪些是跟衛福部相關哪些跟社會相關的局處相關什麼是縣市政府能夠幫助的什麼可以關乎的我們才可以把它統整起來這樣做有效的要有工具有政策的工具那我們才可以做全方位的來去防治好不好那再麻煩可不可以給我一點書面就是現在的分類的狀況跟一些數據如同韓國這樣子好不好謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"166759","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166759","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb14c0bb6bae0f62298b1ecef7239bdfb16d53fbbf289ff3135ddaafb66827a691f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:00:42 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刑事局在做一個不過這個部分我想可能未來它甚至未來我們包含打架還有一些那種重大犯罪恐怕也會碰到"},{"start":128.11,"end":148.841,"text":"那另外我請教一下警政署因為有張文他跳下來他死亡大家一直在猜測他到底是失足還是跳樓到目前為止我們可以確定嗎他到底是失足還是跳樓因為嫌犯已經死亡所以這個動機的部分還要做一個查證還是沒有辦法確定"},{"start":150.245,"end":164.818,"text":"所以也是不排除如果他今天其實他並不是要這個自殺的行為而是屍主死亡的話那如果他人還活著也不排除有更進一步的這些恐怖的攻擊對不對這個部分我們沒辦法做臆測"},{"start":168.934,"end":187.859,"text":"這個你們都其實到底他的動機我覺得應該還是要把它搞清楚那另外我請教一下剛剛莊瑞雄委員也特別提到因為今天就是跨年今天就跨年那我們整個的全國的警力達到這個上萬人要那個要怕"},{"start":189.299,"end":210.509,"text":"維持相關的治安那剛才他特別提到細胞簡訊的部分台北市已經確定今天會發出細胞簡訊當然我的意思說他不一定一定會發啦他有兩個狀況第一個狀況就是呢出現重大治安事件譬如說像北捷這個事件"},{"start":211.189,"end":239.348,"text":"那第二個他這次再增加了一個就是如果人潮特別擁擠也就是如果他出現止暴的現象因為在過去國外也有發生像那個前幾年韓國有離太遠的踩踏事件所以他今天呢已經確定說如果發生這兩個狀況的話他們會發出細胞簡訊那我想請問一下到目前為止我們所警政署或者我們那個"},{"start":241.41,"end":253.168,"text":"那個國土安全辦公室所掌握的是只有台北市已經有這樣的準備還是說其他縣市也有跟我們做申請"},{"start":255.595,"end":279.515,"text":"有人能回答嗎包委員 目前我們這邊了解是台北市有提出一個申請書到災防科技中心去做備查除了台北市還有沒有其他縣市目前我了解是台北市只有台北市但是今年晚上很多縣市都會有跨年活動"},{"start":280.416,"end":307.223,"text":"那麼我有注意到雖然我們的內政部長我們劉世芳針對細胞簡訊他有所保留可是我們的政務委員紀連成他肯定就是說他認為如果有細胞簡訊可以降低可能發生的這些傷亡這些後果那所以我想請問一下我們內政部現在態度到底是怎樣如果說"},{"start":308.683,"end":335.213,"text":"劉世芳的意思就好像說他還擔心會造成什麼什麼的後遺症但是紀連城政務委員又肯定所以現在不是劉世芳跟蔣萬安不同調現在變成劉世芳跟紀連城也不同調那我請問一下根據你們的專業或是你們的研判這個細胞簡訊到底可不可以讓各縣市政府或中央來做一個統一性的規範呢"},{"start":337.113,"end":356.86,"text":"包委員 那個目前的規定來說的話各縣市政府它是可以提出申請書核備以後它就可以應用這個目前規定是這樣但是就是要跟災防的一個科技中心去做備查去做申請 對自己怎麼應用 應用的條件如何這個可能要再思考"},{"start":357.987,"end":379.255,"text":"我覺得你們要盡快啦其實最就是今天晚上如果要做的話就是今天晚上其實你們已經一直在拖一直拖可能下一次的機會可能就是在那個就是在燈會啦對不對所以我覺得我們還是有很多大型的活動我覺得這個動作要快好那接下來我想請教一下部長"},{"start":381.264,"end":400.642,"text":"因為最近呢這個行政院送出了社委法的修法這裡面特別強調了如果有仇恨性的言論這裡面甚至包含這個網路上還要求這個網站要給他下架那當然很多的這些網站的經營者會"},{"start":402.003,"end":405.906,"text":"很困擾什麼樣叫做仇恨性言論我現在整理出這幾個這一陣子以來譬如說昨天中國的軍演我們就看到網紅一個網紅徐碧她就發文說希望砲彈可以不小心打到桃園的中國國民黨黨部讓 解釋一下為何他們阻擋軍購案"},{"start":429.962,"end":449.018,"text":"像這樣子 夠不夠成仇恨式的言論跟委員報告齁 因為這個仇恨 所謂這部分的修法的這部分齁那個這個不是 這是內政部主管的話對那這我沒辦法幫 我是尊重內政部的修法的提案啦"},{"start":449.588,"end":470.778,"text":"所以在行政院的時候你們包含你們根本都完全沒有任何的沒有任何的質疑說這樣子的這樣子的這個修法他有什麼樣的問題有沒有這個限制言論自由問題或者難以執行的問題而且社會法過去本來就已經受到很多的質疑了"},{"start":472.168,"end":487.236,"text":"所以你們法務部完全沒有意見我這邊看到有這麼多這麼多的言論或者是這樣的貼文什麼叫做仇恨性言論好 比如說這個我們常常提到嘛那個檢察官的照片紮上絕痕你們立刻 檢察官立刻偵辦嘛好 所以認為這個是那個仇恨性的這個言論貼文訊息那同樣的把我們這個國民黨所有的立委來放一個靈堂"},{"start":500.926,"end":503.931,"text":"這樣子一個粉專放沒事啊這樣就沒事啊所以"},{"start":505.532,"end":532.73,"text":"法务部不觉得这样的修法有问题这个刚才委员有提到就是仇视检察官那一部分事实上他还是用恐吓的已经达到恐吓的一个要件所以这部分就依法来处理那至于仇恨性的言论这部分那这部分因为这个是属于内政部的一个修法提案那这部分还没有相关的内政部正好保安组也在这里来来来我要讲就是"},{"start":533.93,"end":560.775,"text":"這次這個社違法的提出來有很多人是認為就是當時的這個這個就是有關於網路仲介法的一個這個借師還魂因為針對就是說只要是你們認為是有這個仇恨式的言論影響國人之團結你看到沒有這麼這麼泛泛這麼就是形而上的一個"},{"start":561.977,"end":569.964,"text":"一個文字 什麼恐怖主義啦境外勢力的不當訴求對國安影響甚巨的話 什麼叭啦叭啦一大堆就可以要求在這個網路上要求他們把他這樣的言論給下架所以有很多人認為這是不是一種網路的箝制這種是一個網路言論的一個箝制什麼叫做仇恨性言論 我剛才舉了很多啦"},{"start":588.081,"end":612.226,"text":"同樣類似的事情對檢察官他認為造成恐嚇那對於這個幫這個民意代表立法委員擺靈堂這不叫恐嚇我們會不會心生恐懼對不對一般人你給他擺一個這樣子放在那邊 靈堂在那邊他會不會心生恐懼所以立法委員不應該心生恐懼這種都很多的就是這個標準"},{"start":613.854,"end":643.454,"text":"非常非常的我覺得非常的抽象另外我們也注意到包含了時代力量時代力量他絕對不是藍白陣營時代力量他也認為說你仇恨跟骨髓戰爭的言論是要管但是用社為法來管就是很不適當另外我們台灣警察工作潛意推動協會也認為社為法這樣子的修法事實上是很粗糙的"},{"start":644.154,"end":661.908,"text":"那我在這邊要特別提出來其實過去我要特別講因為社委法沒有錯 剛才那個部長講的它不經過法院我們如果羈押 現在我們來講我們其實在司法法治委員會談了很多次羈押的條件"},{"start":663.169,"end":676.885,"text":"可是呢 現在的社違法不需要經過法院就直接給你拘獄三天讓你關三天 或者讓你罰三萬所以 這些部分會不會"},{"start":678.406,"end":695.727,"text":"變成一個行政上的濫權我提出一個統計資料因為我們在涉違法其實以過去幾年來警察機關的移送警察機關認為他違反涉違法"},{"start":696.808,"end":712.122,"text":"然後移送到法院但是法院不罰的比例事實上是非常非常的高的我們如果根據過去幾年來這樣子包含今年不罰的比例達到八成"},{"start":714.103,"end":728.868,"text":"達到八成過去監察委員也特別針對那個案子就是針對當時的這個台大的教授蘇鴻達的案件就是你們去把他移送移送到這個法院"},{"start":732.158,"end":749.618,"text":"當時監察委員也提出就是有關於以所謂的散佈謠言就基於涉違法的散佈謠言去移送事實上也有違反人權以及沒有保障言論自由"},{"start":750.481,"end":760.347,"text":"所以社會法沒有去檢討去做修正反而繼續的擴權在這次行政院送過來的其實是繼續的擴權而這樣的擴權你們現在才惡補喔你們現在才在惡補嗎這麼重大的案子不管是保安組也不清楚嗎"},{"start":781.175,"end":810.057,"text":"報告委員這個部份內政部的部份內政部講證者的部份是由刑事局主政麻煩您大聲一點這個部份是由我們刑事局來主政的所以我們請刑事局來做說明報告委員那個社會法的部份它還是要經過那個行政法院麻煩您因為您可能戴口罩請您稍微沒有關係那個社會法的部份還是要經過那個行政法院經過法院"},{"start":811.397,"end":827.927,"text":"好 經過法院 但是布法的比例很高啊 我剛剛不是講嗎是不是很高那到底是我們前端大家在在白忙一場還是法院他的那個判決有問題"},{"start":829.591,"end":852.857,"text":"到底是前面的移送太腐爛還是法院的判決有問題在我前面第一個就特別講到今天早上也有討論到就是有在網路上詢問到我們的監察院長陳菊有事嗎 一樣被移送被移送之後法院認為這根本沒有違法的問題"},{"start":854.474,"end":877.58,"text":"是不是那我想請問一下那你這個拘役是需要通過法院嗎才能夠拘役嗎拘留是不是需要拘留所以如果你們要處三日以下之拘留或者新台幣三萬以下的罰還"},{"start":879.269,"end":894.125,"text":"是不是要經過法院的判決那個拘役的需要 法管的不用對不起 大聲一點拘役的需要通通就要經過那行政法院拘役的這個部分"},{"start":894.798,"end":923.617,"text":"就是機遇的部分 那罰款呢這個不需要罰款不需要嘛 對不對所以我個人認為因為當然這個是行政院送出那其實最近已經引起非常多的質疑有很多 我要講的是在這個部分其實我看到已經不是只是你說什麼這個藍白陣營或者什麼綠的陣營其實包含綠的陣營也已經有人去提出這些種種的相關的疑慮"},{"start":924.898,"end":948.844,"text":"所以到時候在大人立法院的部分我們會我們會嚴格的審查所以我覺得內政部也應該採納雅言我覺得為什麼會行政院可以這樣的莫名其妙匆匆忙忙的就送出這樣的這個涉違法的修正我個人也覺得有點不可思議好不好那但是我覺得這部分既然引起大家的疑慮還有很多的討論那我們就應該去好好的去嚴格的審查"},{"start":956.504,"end":957.395,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員"}]}},{"id":"166762","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166762","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb19e6d6596cd24ea7db1ecef7239bdfb16d53fbbf289ff3135f6611687e07821165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"12:38:32 - 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謝謝主席我想請法務部的政部長跟司法院理聽長好 再有請政部長跟理聽長委員好早安我想要了解的是無差別的這個攻擊這樣子就是當然我知道說定刑度的是法務部然後就是判刑的是司法院但是在"},{"start":38.487,"end":57.309,"text":"第一个就是说对于犯罪的发生有很多民众都认为说就是刑度太低的问题那就这一起案件来说如果今天这个张文被抓到那他所判的刑度是什么沈部长"},{"start":57.895,"end":71.39,"text":"他那個是會觸犯271條他那個是殺人者出死刑無期徒刑或10年以上有期徒刑他可以出死刑可以出死刑是不是那司法院會怎麼判"},{"start":72.448,"end":100.46,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們有統計從109年到現在大概有十件無差別的宮崎案件大概我們有六件是判處死刑有人死掉的有人死掉有六件是有人死掉的那有兩件是判處死刑有四件是判無期徒刑已經確定了那這樣子如果造成了非常多的人員的傷亡那在於就是審理的過程當中會不會更快速"},{"start":101.92,"end":107.064,"text":"這個是國民法官的案件這是屬於國民法官的案件"},{"start":131.52,"end":149.06,"text":"那對於民眾而言會不會啟而效之模仿或者是造成一些無辜的受害者像一般的民眾所遭受到的這樣子一個危險跟風險更高呢"},{"start":153.597,"end":174.89,"text":"這個問題我們這個其實非常可惡那這個遇到這種隨機殺人把人殺死的這一種我們一定會求死刑那這一種的話那我們會整個因為監督法院在這個案件的那個我們會會極力這個除了死刑之外我認為是沒辦法原諒的因為其實"},{"start":177.192,"end":196.412,"text":"為什麼要就教於兩位就是現在有非常多的罪犯他們認為就如同剛才前面有委員提到的詐騙那他們認為刑度以及法院的審理那是不是對於這個犯罪沒有辦法有效的嚇阻那"},{"start":197.794,"end":207.703,"text":"對於說如果像詐騙那新加坡現在提出邊行我們除了邊行還有沒有什麼其他更好的方式"},{"start":209.877,"end":229.814,"text":"這部分像那個詐騙這部分跟委員報告那部分因為整個民眾是有就是要重判那這部分我們有一個良心的一個標準這個我都要求各地檢署各檢察檢察長對這一種的顯然判決的行動不合乎我們社會的期待要上訴那另外還有定執行就是說"},{"start":230.615,"end":257.054,"text":"不要說騙越多次變成定情形越輕就一件判一年兩年就判兩件就加一個月那這種的這種如果說判決有這種的情形我們都會要求檢查這樣再要審查要上訴這一定要讓回復到民眾的期待而且讓這些詐騙詐騙這些嫌犯這些被告讓他划不來"},{"start":258.115,"end":272.611,"text":"那些詐騙你也享受不到那這些你也划不到那你覺得新加坡現在採取邊形我說他採取邊形對犯罪有沒有效惡主那因為現在其實詐騙案這麼多對於"},{"start":278.377,"end":298.637,"text":"所有的檢察官也好法官也好造成了非常多工作的壓力那對於社會大眾也是啊還有對於檢警調等等都是這樣子的那請問一下你認為新加坡的邊行對於這樣子的詐騙的嚇阻"},{"start":300.394,"end":321.425,"text":"這部分還要再做一個觀察因為新加坡被騙的金額也是蠻多的也是蠻多他新加坡詐騙也是很嚴重那因為我想這個邊形這個還要再做一個討論因為這兩公會這是不是有問事完他一定會有講說這是一個酷刑的疑慮那這部分我想我們的手段都很多我們現在修法有加重這樣的一個處罰"},{"start":322.285,"end":350.987,"text":"那另外在落實個案這部分我們現在要求一定要從中渡刑去求刑去求刑讓他把他關在牢裡關在牢裡然後我們再來做一個教化那在假釋這部分我們是嚴審假釋那個其他比較輕其他的犯罪的假釋的這部分我們比這些最嚴重而且他一定要跟被害人做一個調和解賠償那個損害嘛那不賠償損害這部分我們就在就不會"},{"start":351.792,"end":363.722,"text":"那你覺得這樣子的方式有沒有辦法減輕整個我是認為現在根本包括現在整個有下降的趨勢這些人起訴現在法院也開始判重了那我們給他生壓現在我們剛剛委員會關心像我們那個監所那個都超縮就是因為"},{"start":371.431,"end":394.584,"text":"我們都是因為法院的支持啦所以那個看守所這邊真的是都有嚴重的超收啦那我想這邊如果判決速度快一點的話那可以到監獄去那關起來那我想最高峰現在已經有下降的一個趨勢了那我想判決判中一點然後然後在整個一個假釋的審查這邊我們更加的有嚴格"},{"start":395.144,"end":415.877,"text":"看他有沒有去賠償被害人的損害如果被害人的損失有賠償的話這部分我們才會比較考慮給他做一個假釋的門檻那需要多久的時間才能看到效果目前是有看到效果因為對於整體的案件要大幅度的下降那因為才能夠紓解第一個民眾受害的機會"},{"start":418.639,"end":444.074,"text":"就是說希望能夠讓所有都不會因為這個案件檢警掉都是工作壓力加重嘛其他的東西都沒有辦法做啊現在委員會很關心很了解這個問題很專業但是請委員放心現在我們今年11月份跟去年11月份的比較那個受理件數已經減了四分之一了那另外財損金額也降了52%了"},{"start":446.116,"end":463.531,"text":"那我想這個趨勢是一個反轉的趨勢已經在下降了那我想明年我們今天是最後一天了明年我相信這個我們可以看到這個趨勢應該一直在降低那經過這次的努力的一個打造我相信成果是有呈現出來那我跟委員補充我們其實剛才那個"},{"start":465.873,"end":478.705,"text":"賴委員有提到銀行端像我們跟銀行端有一種預警的機制像我們台北地檢署辦一件那個斬金專案那一件也是從銀行端提供的那些可疑賬戶我們去發展的案件那一件"},{"start":480.006,"end":480.587,"text":"我知道說當然"},{"start":500.387,"end":528.696,"text":"我們希望說不要有這樣的案件發生還有就是說因為就是一般的民眾因為這樣子相關的偵查那大家在銀行轉帳上面的確都會遭遇到這樣子的問題就是說很多民眾都不翻其說那當然為了要保護這些被詐騙就是不要有人再被詐騙當然這是銀行需要提供的這個我們希望銀行可以提供這樣子的一個稽查的方式"},{"start":529.836,"end":559.177,"text":"當然 最後我再問剛好鄭部長在這裡就是說我們彰化縣的那個調查站你不知道有沒有去看過有去看過 那個很危險喔對啊 在那個八卦山的那個有點傾斜了那個籃球場都傾斜了因為底下的民眾也會擔心說這個調查站如果往下滑的時候會造成民眾的相關的安全的這樣的問題那是不是因為他們已經計畫搬到那個彰化市了是不是可以給予"},{"start":559.697,"end":581.574,"text":"他們預算的協助這部分是不是說我們預算因為他這個中長期的一個預算計畫所以我們希望說預算能夠趕緊申過或者的話不然會停下來先編嘛對不對先編他那個是算我們法務部第一優先的排第一名的那個很危險真的是謝謝委員關心謝謝謝謝謝委員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}