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電梯比較慢要開我就讓你們開一個比較好來報告委員會 出席委員10人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會"},{"start":1837.197,"end":1855.445,"text":"來 我們現在開會現在進行報告事項宣讀上次會議的議事錄立法院第十一屆第四會期司法及法制委員會第十六次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年十二月三十一日星期三上午九十二分至十二時四十九分"},{"start":1856.165,"end":1877.023,"text":"地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員黃國昌委員等12人列席委員盧憲一委員等6人列席官員考試院秘書長劉建興等人主席翁昭吉委員小林報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二邀請法務部部長率所屬相關單位司法院副秘書長內政部警政署"},{"start":1877.523,"end":1892.342,"text":"行政院國土安全辦公室就無差別攻擊犯罪事件之防制與量刑檢討進行專題報告並被質詢決定報告及詢答完畢討論事項並按審查委員翁曉琳等18人領據政務人員法草案等二案"},{"start":1893.063,"end":1893.423,"text":"請問各位上次會議的議事錄"},{"start":1925.629,"end":1946.254,"text":"我們接著介紹到場的委員跟應邀列席的官員先介紹在場委員 這是我的基本條約 王毅川委員我們接著介紹應邀列席的人員運動部政務次長黃啟王 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市場媒合與跨域整合"},{"start":2119.725,"end":2146.768,"text":"这类的工作并不以公权力行使为核心而是高度专业与创新导向的公共事务因此采行行政法人的模式并不是要取代部会而是透过较具弹性的人事制度与财务机制来完成政策执行的与产业服务在制度分工上非常的清楚运动部将会持续的负责政策的规划"},{"start":2147.589,"end":2157.467,"text":"法制的建構與跨部會的協調而運動產業發展中心則依政策的方向推動產業服務並回饋政策建議"},{"start":2160.829,"end":2186.465,"text":"它的三个功能的定位有三个一 运动部的政策方向协助推动全民运动 赛事产业化跨域创新与运动产业人才培育强化政策弱地的效果第二 办理运动产业调查统计与趋势的研究提供运动部作为政策研拟修正与评估之餐具"},{"start":2187.205,"end":2196.232,"text":"第三 扮演政府與產業之間的橋樑整合人才 資金與市場的需求促進公司協力與產業整合的發展"},{"start":2199.942,"end":2218.92,"text":"運動產業需要的專業包含了科技、賽事經營、品牌行銷、法務與國際事務而這些專業本來就不完全是來自於文官的體系因此多元的人力設計是為了補足產業的專業需求而不是要取代公務人員"},{"start":2220.302,"end":2243.133,"text":"本部所督導的國家運動訓練中心、國家運科中心、國家運動產業發展中心三大法人,分別執行培育國際賽事優秀的運動人才、運動科技研發以及加持應用、運動產業服務與市場拓展營運等極具高度專業的重要任務。"},{"start":2244.173,"end":2264.99,"text":"唯有透過業界的染財 禁用兼具專業資能協調 溝通 問題分析能力的人才才能達成提升我國整體的運動競技能力整體來看 三大行政法人中心是在既有的法治架構之下會以常設編制為核心"},{"start":2265.771,"end":2284.838,"text":"透過多元人力的補充各領域的專業在不涉及政策決策與公權力的前提之下協助運動部把政策做得更好促進國家運動業務健全的發展以上的報告 謝謝 敬請指教好 謝謝黃次長接下來請考選部劉鴻齊劉部長來報告"},{"start":2294.864,"end":2323.152,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生大家好感謝大院委員歷年來對考選部的支持使本部各項業務順利推展今天的專題報告本部緊究業管部分體育行政類科進行說明首先本部每年配合機關用人需求辦理相應類科考試公務人員高考三級地特三等級原住民三等特考設有體育行政類科近年提卻單位為教育部體育署縣委運動部及地方政府體育教育或運動局處"},{"start":2324.753,"end":2340.391,"text":"接下来介绍近年来高考三级体育行政类科专业科目修正情形第13年以前列考六科考量职主职系大幅整并以及为了符合机关用人需求本部"},{"start":2341.172,"end":2355.098,"text":"主部規劃檢討專業科目書籍內涵所以自2011年起檢考一科列考五科是本部於2011年起進行高普考試專業科目彈性多元調整方案經過函詢各機關意見並開會決議刪除體育原理一科從2013年高普考試開始試用"},{"start":2361.261,"end":2376.509,"text":"一一五年起列考四科這是因為一一三年以後高考三級大多數類科專業科目已減為四科為了再精進調整本部再次請用人機關檢視及提出修正建議並再次邀請相關機關開會討論決議是維持列考行政法"},{"start":2379.951,"end":2404.819,"text":"運動自然科學體育行政與管理等三科合併世界體育史與運動社會學為一科共計四科從2015年高普考試開始試用最後有關公務人員考試如要新增類科依規定行政院及其所屬科機關應由行政院人事行政總署合轉本部審核如果要修正應試科目標準流程就是由機關依用人需求向本部提出"},{"start":2405.499,"end":2429.304,"text":"本部后续就会依法制程序办理修正考试规则等作业当然为应付应考人权利不论是新增类科应试科目修正或简列等相关作业集成与考试开始适用时间点通常希望能够维持10个月到半年以上的适度弹性以上报告更详细的内容请参议院书院报告那进行各位委员指教谢谢"},{"start":2432.833,"end":2440.502,"text":"好 謝謝劉部長 那機關代表報告完畢 相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄"},{"start":2443.171,"end":2464.913,"text":"現在我們開始來進行詢答本會委員詢答時間6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘就6加2非本會委員詢答時間4分鐘並不再延長我們上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位王逸川委員來做詢答"},{"start":2476.738,"end":2489.269,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請運動部黃次長請黃次長國訓中心的鞏執行長還有運動產業發展中心的鄭董事長 謝謝請上台好 請問三位今天我們討論的第一題是考試請問現在考試的這些科目"},{"start":2504.537,"end":2532.191,"text":"大學的體育系都有教嗎都有 都有教 好第二個運動部裡頭的公務員是大學體育科系畢業的比例大概多少比例我不知道欸 很抱歉因為我們多數有不同類型的公務人員進來包含了一般行政 教育行政類的那當然也有體育高考進來的好 我要問這一題的原因是我們這個大學體育科系的學生"},{"start":2533.174,"end":2552.615,"text":"因為最後都大部分花的時間在當運動員你要叫他來科技難度比較高那一定會有一些不是運動體育科系畢業的他考上體育行政比運動員還容易次長你認同我的說法嗎"},{"start":2554.31,"end":2575.798,"text":"部分認同因為其實讀體育系的人不是不讀書我是說不是讀體育系的考這些科目是不是外行的來跑進來考他搞不好會考得比較好從考試的本身來說在考試的能力的鑑別度上面他們如果具備體育的素養他們就可以通過考試這個是"},{"start":2577.335,"end":2602.272,"text":"第一個我關心的課題說有可能外界觀看這些運動部的組成公務員的組成或各縣市的體育局運動局的組成會有這樣的疑慮這第一個就是說我關心這些大學體育科系畢業的學生他們未來的就業現在體育系畢業以後大部分來做什麼"},{"start":2603.038,"end":2625.079,"text":"做的非常的多個人工作是不少比如說個人指導教練現在在業界個人工作指導這個地方的收入非常非常的高這一類是居多的當然也有一些其他從商去了去開健身房的去做個別指導的都有好 那這個運動部我建議你們要跟各大學提議區的"},{"start":2625.649,"end":2643.076,"text":"去做他們後來直矮的追蹤的時候再確認一下因為其實蠻多學校的體育系後來又加了休閒兩個字對因為從市場的需求上面這一類的人才是必要有的休閒之後就跑去當領隊導遊"},{"start":2645.941,"end":2668.435,"text":"有這樣子的發展 各式各樣跑去飯店那這很可惜就是說國家有規劃這樣的一個科系然後這樣的一個訓練後來沒當到運動沒當這個國家的運動員那如果再從事包括剛剛講譬如說去做健身教練去做體適能教練各式各樣的這個都是好事但是"},{"start":2669.275,"end":2677.758,"text":"建議還是要去追蹤一下這些體育科系畢業學生他們後來的發展 是的第二個我請教這個龔執行長長啊 我剛才回到一個家庭兩年前他跟我說有一個孩子去國訓中心全中運的金牌就對了去國訓中心之後說去訓練一兩年之後受傷了拉傷了 什麼受傷了"},{"start":2698.422,"end":2704.726,"text":"就離開了 離開後我就問他現在在做什麼他說現在是十字的工地 在做工人這裡面兩個課題 第一個課題是說這個國家訓練中心訓練完成或者是被退訓被退訓以後 你如果去追蹤說他現在在做什麼或是退訓後 長江好人推前浪阿表哥跟年輕人一起退訓後你們就不一樣了"},{"start":2728.801,"end":2752.311,"text":"委員好 跟委員報告一下我們國家運動訓練中心是針對運動部這邊的政策執行的一個單位所以他領選一些優秀的選手到我們這邊做長期的一個培訓當培訓結束以後呢選手他有個人個別的一個生涯的發展跟規劃那原則上我們在部裡面有訂一個優秀運動選手的就業輔導跟協助辦法"},{"start":2753.732,"end":2765.742,"text":"那他必須要達到一定的程度以上的選手我們就會給他後面的一個協助那如果他沒有到達那樣的程度的話可能就是依他個人的一個生涯規劃自行發展我是建議這樣啦因為這家長也說很無奈啦他說去訓練本來也很開心啊"},{"start":2774.011,"end":2778.735,"text":"全中運金牌 去訓練 訓練後受傷 現在在做工程這聽起來很辛酸 就是說國家本地 加上一位人才 國家本能訓練當然 他是沒有在問這個運動員為什麼去那邊弄個一兩年 出來就受傷啦這個事情可能後面的這些追蹤 我建議啦這個國家 人家在訓練的單位"},{"start":2801.794,"end":2809.097,"text":"這部分後面還是追蹤一下 不能說他的個人意願要不要去做綱領都不知道 這個聽起來都不好可能我們訓練的能量其實也有限我們也不可能說教過一輩子但是這個後面的追蹤 我建議還是要進行好 第三位 我們請鄭董事長"},{"start":2827.733,"end":2845.664,"text":"政董事長你是從公園院過來那顯然這個卓院長或者是李洋部長希望你從這個產業的角度進來這個政董事長你現在來這邊也沒多久他會不會跟這個體育界格格不入"},{"start":2846.617,"end":2868.227,"text":"跟委員報告原來在我工業院的業務就是從事運動科技的研發所以對於運動產業相關的業者還有生態有一些熟識當然對運動員稍微有一點距離但是經過這兩個月還有包含像前上個禮拜中華奧運主席的交接都結識了蠻多的運動專業的領袖還有運動員"},{"start":2873.715,"end":2882.762,"text":"接下來我請問這個次長我們這三大中心他們的預算現在夠不夠目前運作起來是可以的來 龔執行長 你錢有夠嗎次長說可以啊 你有夠嗎"},{"start":2894.058,"end":2921.839,"text":"目前來講是就是說我們每年都要會因應那個培訓的選手的多掛會有所調整好 我是建議次長這樣啦就是三大中心包括運動部的預算這個金融邊啦國家不會省這個錢是你們運動部跟三大中心的錢送到立法院我看也沒有人敢動你們的預算謝謝委員的支持這大家都支持的事情都是好事情"},{"start":2922.694,"end":2938.136,"text":"我最後請教一個問題我們的這個運動員啊很大部分來自我們花東地區對不對有一部分是有沒有考慮啊我們的國家訓練中心啊部分的運動項目啊把它設在花東"},{"start":2938.916,"end":2965.848,"text":"目前是有一些訓練的基地是放在台東跟花蓮還有宜蘭我們的水上的有划船的項目就是在宜蘭我是建議就是說還是做一下這些選手的原來他在青春 國小 國中 高中或是在高雄一隊做一下分析跟運動的項目不要我們大部分人都集運動員某些項目集中在花東"},{"start":2966.653,"end":2986.451,"text":"叫整間都召去國家信念中心召去中營 沒錯啦整間都召來其實他就帶他的故鄉最好就整間又召來這個我覺得在以後的配置上這部分也去委託做個研究就是說我們歷年的國家代表隊或國訓中心的成員"},{"start":2987.771,"end":3003.03,"text":"大部分这个选手来自什么地方有没有必要哪一些运动的项目刚好花莲跟台东环境也适合用地也没有什么困难那大家这样成本都低埃及要混点料"},{"start":3004.115,"end":3011.477,"text":"我們國家的訓練在那裡之後搞不好那個項目的運動產業就會留在那裡是的 沒錯這個人口 運動的這個人口就不會外流 它就在地嘛是訓練後自己的故鄉這塊我是建議運動部也啟動相關的分析是的看有沒有哪一些項目可以移到花蓮縣跟台東縣然後去做這樣的一個規劃好 以上 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":3033.24,"end":3048.737,"text":"好 謝謝王逸川委員那議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢了 尚未確定我們現在先確定議事錄請問各位 上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤跟遺漏沒有的話 我們議事錄就確定接下來請林倩琦委員來做選答"},{"start":3063.358,"end":3067.082,"text":"謝謝我們主席莊昭偉我請我們次長還有運產中心的董事長 劉董事長可以嗎來 請上台"},{"start":3080.543,"end":3093.173,"text":"好 次長還是再次感謝我們在11月12號在本席的媒合下我們在運動科技人才的培育上針對原住民的部分還有一般選手擴大的培訓的部分"},{"start":3097.657,"end":3122.11,"text":"的實質溝通之後你們這邊的一個正面的也很支持性的一個回應本席這邊也很感謝你們把本席的這個建議納入在後續的整個規劃跟支持當中本席也非常的感佩這個建議是一個起點所以本席今天要談的是說不只是在運動科學這個面向而是我們希望把視角放得更高然後更遠"},{"start":3122.97,"end":3138.893,"text":"當然在去年的11月我們這個運動產業中心已經開始運作最重要的是要建立這一整個生態系讓整個台灣在運動產業的部分加進來之後我們整個不僅產值提高然後人才也有一些去處"},{"start":3139.834,"end":3160.131,"text":"所以在這個整個藍圖之中我還是滿關心原住民的這一塊是在一個什麼樣子的定位下過去我們知道原民在競技運動員的角色上扮演得非常好國際賽事也非常亮眼但是當然退役之後能夠順利銜接到運動產業體系的比例卻不高"},{"start":3161.451,"end":3177.182,"text":"在賽事的營運上還有運動的服務上跟產業管理還有基層教練甚至在運動行政上還有地方運動的發展都還是不太足所以本席認為這整個制度的設計沒有把原住民納入運動產業人才供給端的一個通盤的規劃"},{"start":3181.064,"end":3202.754,"text":"所以在過去產生這樣一個情形所以本席想要請教三個問題第一個是當運動部在推動運動產業發展中心跟相關人才培育政策時原住民是不是也可以像運動科學我們先前討論的這樣子把它納入運動產業人才很重要一個來源然後最重要的就是說在培訓實習還有產學合作上"},{"start":3203.234,"end":3221.568,"text":"跟職癌的銜接機制可不可以有更具體的原名的部分的一個參與跟設計第二個部分我們先前在11月12號的一個會議裡面運科人才你們這邊有承諾但是未來是不是不要只限於運科而是進一步擴大到運動產業需要的各個專業項目"},{"start":3223.79,"end":3248.584,"text":"比如說運產中心的人事規章可不可以參照比照運科人才的一個方式來處理例如像賽事場館的營運還有運動的服務跟地方產業發展的面向讓原住民不是只有選手的來源而是在整個生態系當中可以變成一個專業的參與者第三個部分是針對原鄉跟原住民地區的原住民族地區本身的一個運動產業的發展"},{"start":3250.825,"end":3279.925,"text":"運動部是不是有思考如果透過人才培育與制度的設計讓原住民能夠在地建立一些運動相關產業的服務而不是被迫離開家鄉才能進入到運動產業的體系本席這邊也可能提醒一下部裡面應該之前在教育部其實有一些法規的更改讓原鄉的運動人才流失得更快也就是這種挖角的機制讓我們原鄉的很多優秀的運動人才"},{"start":3280.425,"end":3296.461,"text":"那就流失了從原鄉流失但是在都會呢他可能還會碰到未來發展的一個問題所以然後等到可能我們沒有去注意到他可能就在這個都會的部落空間裡面或者是非部落空間他就變成流散了"},{"start":3297.021,"end":3320.708,"text":"又變成一個人才的一個虛耗跟浪費所以本席還蠻關注這一點本席未來可能要針對法規之前的一個調整而導致這樣的情形再跟你們做探討但是先是不是可以就本席在剛才的三個問題上請次長先做一個回應或者是董事長這邊如果有一些補充那也息聽"},{"start":3321.408,"end":3345.254,"text":"您的一些見解謝謝委員的指導我們對於原住民人才的產業人才的培養其實會跟運動科學這一類是類似的首先我們會先去定義出來到底產業人才的需求在哪裡也就是說我們可能會委請我們的產業中心把不同產業的能力指標也就是它的職能基準先列出來之後我們必須要回到大學端去"},{"start":3345.834,"end":3370.781,"text":"也是大學在那個地方做初步的人才培養然後我們會想辦法去媒合產學合作這件事情因為在學校訓練出來的人如果沒有經過一段時間的現場的這種訓練跟培養他是不太容易去跟市場做對接的因此產業中心的任務之一其實就是要做這種人才對接的一個任務因此他們會先把職能基準訂出來如果職能基準可以通過"},{"start":3372.301,"end":3392.192,"text":"勞動部的職能基準的檢查那是另外一個證照的考試這也是我們發展的方向所以在職能基準上面我們是一定要往那邊走的而在原住民這個地方的人才留在我們的原鄉裡面這其實是運動部一直以來在做的事情我們希望能夠去發展原鄉在運動上面的人力的需求"},{"start":3392.992,"end":3415.246,"text":"目前我們有在規劃去培養一些原鄉的原住民接受訓練然後回到原鄉去工作也是我們蠻期待的這一類受過我們訓練的人可以回到原鄉去進行運動指導健康促進也就是讓我們原鄉的發展因為有運動的元素而存在讓他們的民眾可以更健康"},{"start":3415.726,"end":3442.843,"text":"是 謝謝次長那這個在實務性的操作本席其實先前也一直很關心我們也談到說某一些這個培訓的這個據點能夠在這個本席因為來自花東啦所以在台東跟花蓮都是本席非常關注的那園鄉也在這個地方其實數量是特別多的那先前本席跟這個台東的立委那個黃建斌委員也有在談說是不是有一些專業的訓練中心可以設在這個台東花蓮"},{"start":3443.783,"end":3462.293,"text":"那剛才我又聽到王逸川委員這邊也有這樣一個想法所以我也呼應一下啦所以有一些項目那是不是您剛才說宜蘭有這個划船了嘛那花蓮或台東是不是因地制宜適合的項目或過去已經在歷史上有發展的一些項目可不可以在這個部分再多做一些考量"},{"start":3462.993,"end":3480.504,"text":"本席當然在全民運動的部分還有水域運動其實在花東也一直在推動但是就本席剛才所講的專業的訓練中心當然我們現在很多項目都是在左訓就是國訓中心是不是未來可以考量在花東甚至因為要有這樣的平台您剛才講的"},{"start":3481.685,"end":3497.117,"text":"這些項目才有可能成就這個是跟空間有直接的關係然後運動產業或許在這裡面可以透過不管是國際賽事或者是訓練中心跟國際間的連結比如說像現在我們知道在京津台東的京津那衝浪的"},{"start":3498.558,"end":3514.229,"text":"這個國際性賽事的原地沒有經過國家的一個推動但事實上它就自然形成那我們可以藉這個機會然後把這個產業中心跟訓練基地的平台給建置起來那另外還有本席很關心的風帆類不管你是在這個台東或者是"},{"start":3515.649,"end":3541.263,"text":"我們還是希望在台東因為我們有看過地形目前台東還是比較恰當的那花蓮如果有那當然也是那宜蘭本來就已經有一些設施了所以我們也希望說能夠透過這樣一個機會給予一個專業訓練中心的平台在花東然後另外產業中心可以透過跟國際間的連結直接嫁接那我想這應該是相得益彰本席這邊先做一個這樣比較實質的建議那也希望我們這個董事長"},{"start":3542.023,"end":3559.555,"text":"這邊也把它考量進去那我記得應該是鄭委員鄭天才委員他在這個有關於運動產業還有這個運動科學他應該都有一些附帶決議希望你們把原住民這個部分給直接考慮進去一定會執行 是的是…所以本席這邊就做一個建議當然也會追這個樣一個進度"},{"start":3561.937,"end":3579.761,"text":"那最後呢是針對今天在運動這個體育人才項目的一個考科體育行政人才運動行政人才本席這邊有一個關注一件事應該在考選部對不起那現在是不是可以請考選部這邊謝謝謝謝次長跟董事長委員好"},{"start":3585.913,"end":3606.263,"text":"部長您好在目前體育行政人才的高等考試考科好像你們將原本獨立的運動社會學跟世界體育史要合併成為一個單一的考試科目本席這邊有一些看法本席過去也出過文化行政相關的一個考題"},{"start":3607.043,"end":3635.401,"text":"所以覺得這個每一個考科他的思維跟訓練是很重要的一個在這個考科裡面的核心價值所以運動社會學不是體育行政的一些附屬學科他探討的是運動跟社會族群文化性別的一個互動關係然後是理解運動政策如何形成那會怎麼樣影響社會還有這整個社會接受的一個核心的分析學門那這個實質的效果不是只有整合"},{"start":3636.461,"end":3661.894,"text":"你們把運動社會學跟世界體育史放在一起它會有點弱化公務體系對運動政策社會脈絡的一個理解能力所以運動社會學其實是很重要一個社會脈絡的核心世界體育史當然是一些整個對國際的一個知識層面兩個其實核心概念是不太一樣的所以以後的運動治理現在就已經遇到了不是只有賽事跟行政包括性別 平權社會參與跟族群的議題"},{"start":3664.235,"end":3678.091,"text":"那另外當然還有運動外交那當然運動外交你要當然對這個國際的一些運動史體育史要有一些了解但本質上都是很高度依賴社會學跟人文學科的這個分析能力所以本席請教一下"},{"start":3679.252,"end":3696.139,"text":"第一個考選部在評估這個考科合併的時候有沒有檢視這有沒有可能你們這樣合併會不會削弱未來體育行政人才在社會分析跟公共政策上反思的一個能力然後第二個部分是運動部成立之後那個國家運動治理也"},{"start":3696.699,"end":3714.988,"text":"納入一個新的邁向新的階段但是考選部是不是應該更強化而不是淡化運動社會學的整個地位因為這畢竟還是有一些擇司那你在整個體育行政上如果沒有一些核心價值跟社會脈絡的理解我想會滿糟糕的所以這個本席還滿關心"},{"start":3716.61,"end":3737.732,"text":"另外還是建議運動社會學是不是可以還是獨立這樣確保國家在選拔體育人才的時候不是只有管理很重要的就是一個社會的公共價值您的看法跟委員報告這次主要的病科主要是說因為現在絕大部分的高考三級其實專業科目都是四科"},{"start":3738.412,"end":3755.858,"text":"那體育行政還有五課 這意味著考生必須多考一天那對他們來講的話你們是成本考量還是什麼不是 那個因為現在本來就是說本來這應該說在我們前一波113年的時候本來的那時候的基金政策就是專業科目都是減為四課減併為四課 那普考減併為三課"},{"start":3759.699,"end":3785.119,"text":"那還保留一個五科到六科的我們是在這一波裡面就是希望這些要來一致那目前來講的話其實運動社會學跟事業體育史它的命題大綱並沒有變動所以其實它大概改變了比較基本上它就會被這個condense濃縮了之後有些東西會被稀釋掉跟委員報告那這一個是經過運動部跟運動部還有就幾個地方的行政機關這是有開會過的"},{"start":3786.52,"end":3808.688,"text":"其實也是具體他們的建議本席是比較關心我不希望這些運動行政相關的人才沒有一些擇司然後就只是變成操作性的工具人如果只有在行政跟管理的一個層面我想整個國家的運動的思維高度可能會有所疑慮本席是針對這個部分跟委員報告有考就會讀這個大概是這樣這個是很明顯的其實"},{"start":3814.75,"end":3824.193,"text":"以及是增值說這個配分要重大其實老實說它的配分在整個你要錄取還是很重要的一塊所以我想這個考生還是會重視這件事情"},{"start":3824.745,"end":3847.24,"text":"所以對這幾顆本席對於所謂專業價值的制度性的宣示的部分也是蠻重視的至於行政實務的一個操作這個比例上還是不應該至少五十五十至少好不好所以是不是也請你們做一些考量我們會再跟運動部確認一下基本上應該是這樣的配分謝謝林倩琦委員"},{"start":3852.952,"end":3857.114,"text":"我們接下來請翁曉琳召委來做宣達一大早消息息謝謝召委首先先有請運動部跟考選部運動部的黃次長和考選部的劉部長請劉部長跟黃次長"},{"start":3884.932,"end":3907.522,"text":"好 部長好 次長好那麼今天因為主要是來討論就是有關於未來公務人員在體育類別的考科的做更動那麼剛剛慶祺委員比較關注的是有關於世界體育史跟運動社會學兩科就合併那麼我在這裡我想請教的就是說因為看到"},{"start":3908.842,"end":3930.227,"text":"運動部本來希望能夠將現在的運動自然科學的科目調整為運動科技學可是為什麼後來在考選部的你們可能是不是有召開什麼諮詢會議等等之類的然後最後變成還是沒有要做更動本期比較好奇的就是說當時為什麼"},{"start":3932.487,"end":3951.688,"text":"體育部會有這樣的想法希望把運動自然科學改成運動科技學但是最後在考選部這裡定調的時候又說又不改這原因是什麼公務員報告那我們考選部不是不改等一下我會再因為我們跟黃次長有討論過我先說第一個就是說因為更改科目需要一年"},{"start":3952.817,"end":3973.411,"text":"我們目前為止115那是來不及了所以如果要更改的話因為它必須要通過第一個要三科目 真科目然後命題大綱要重新訂然後跟著要過考試規則那也就是要在明年1月前完成所以基本上我們會在今年來啟動相關的一個討論流程"},{"start":3975.234,"end":3983.628,"text":"不過至於說是不是要這樣那我們一定還是尊重運動部這位意見那這邊是不是請黃執掌來做說明是"},{"start":3985.393,"end":4004.812,"text":"委員你好運動科技這個元素希望能夠放進來考科是因為在整個運動產業的發展當中接下來從現在開始其實科技的元素必須要有所以我們同仁們的建議才會是說應該要把運動科技的元素放進來至於要不要把它真正改成一個考科"},{"start":4005.232,"end":4018.309,"text":"這一件事情其實還有待還有一些空間去做調整但是最重要的一個元素是我們是希望能夠把科技的元素放到未來的考科裡面的一個項目裡面而不是一下子就把整個考科給改掉"},{"start":4019.02,"end":4037.25,"text":"好 了解了那么所以看起来一个是有关于就是说我们这个考科的改变因为它涉及到考生的权益所以必须要有个过渡时间那么但是就是就这个方向来讲未来还是也许就在下个年度就有可能将运动自然科学然后改为运动科技"},{"start":4038.09,"end":4066.532,"text":"學的意思對不對跟委員報告這一點我會跟運動部再來確認不過目前為止我們跟黃市長討論是說他們對於說需不需要去更動這個科目名稱其實運動部自己內部還在做最後確認那另外一個做法是檢視目前運動自然科學既有的命題大綱都要做修正這也可以請教一下如果說就命題大綱做修正的話還必須要再修改規則嗎還是說你們自己內部就可以做了"},{"start":4067.173,"end":4072.469,"text":"他還是一樣要從運動部提過來因為我們基本上提到考選部 考選部還要在送立法院"},{"start":4073.223,"end":4096.56,"text":"不用 就只是調整命題的內涵的核心項目但是還是要跟考生做一個公佈所以我們的標準作業流程是希望是當我們會事先會商然後運動部提一個命題大綱草案過來然後我們就會來召開專家會議還有用人機關的會議來進行確認一旦確認以後其實就可以進行調整"},{"start":4097.321,"end":4107.562,"text":"好的 那麼基本上因為本席就是比較好奇為什麼後來沒有改不過就是本席也很同意就是剛剛次長和部長的說法那運動自然科學的確可以就是擴大它的"},{"start":4109.412,"end":4127.278,"text":"核心的考科的內容然後涵蓋就是最新的一些科技的項目那麼但是至於就是說是要不要去更動那個考科的科名的部分的話就本席在這邊也尊重部長跟次長這裡的看法好 那接下來我想就是有只是詢問有關運動部"},{"start":4129.439,"end":4156.115,"text":"這個議題就可以請部長先回座首先本席想要詢問的就是說其實運動部在之前曾經有推動過青春動資券當時是希望能夠鼓勵16歲以上到22歲的族群可以多多去運動所以有發放青春動資券可是看起來現在運動部準備要把青春動資券讓它轉型變成一個全民的運動幣"},{"start":4157.416,"end":4178.363,"text":"是的那麼就像16歲以上所有的國民都可以去抽籤來取得這個運動幣可是本席在這邊就是比較就政策的方向我想請教次長就是說因為原來青春鬥志軍的目的是希望多鼓勵年輕人去運動可是你現在改為運動這個"},{"start":4180.836,"end":4198.172,"text":"改為運動幣之後會不會可能會排擠掉原本來要鼓勵專款就是要給年輕人所使用的這樣的一個運動幣從機制上來看事實上是有可能沒有錯但是就過去兩年的執行"},{"start":4198.852,"end":4217.293,"text":"青春動資券它的動資率大概只有大概到66%左右也就是說有30%左右的費用是沒有被兌現出來的而運動部在這件事情上面是我們希望擴大因為有這樣子政策上的引導吸引更多的人需要運動的不是只有16歲到22歲的人"},{"start":4218.915,"end":4243.805,"text":"而事實上是全民我們是希望透過這樣政策的引導可以增加22歲以上的人也因為有這樣的刺激讓他們可以多一點點運動的動機是的 因為就像您剛剛說的就是原來的青春度資券看起來它的使用率也許只有六成左右運動部應該是不是要去思考到為什麼只有六成的年輕的學生族群們他們會去使用然後剩下的"},{"start":4245.226,"end":4261.901,"text":"40%就浪费了那么可是看起来你们现在的做法是说那算了那40%的这个没有领到的那我们就把它整个扩大然后连那原来的60%的学生可能他可以一定可以领到的那之后他可能就被稀释掉了"},{"start":4262.741,"end":4283.026,"text":"對 那這個部分的話是不是未來應該也要就是說還是要有一定的配額是要給這些年輕的學生他如果說在一定的時間譬如說到了年終或三分之二的時間沒有來申請的話就可以再回到給一般的民眾去使用這樣的話也能夠確保就是鼓勵年輕人多多的運動"},{"start":4284.026,"end":4311.078,"text":"謝謝委員的建議其實過去青春動資圈領用相對的少其實我們看在區域上面來看都會區其實是還好是那些非都會區的領用的情況沒有比較好因此我們現在要做的一件事情除了現在現行的方法要走之外我們要去增加非都會區的廠商願意進來去接受動資或運動幣的這件事情也就是我們希望能夠觸及更多的人來進行運動"},{"start":4312.999,"end":4317.201,"text":"總之本席提出了這樣的一個議題我也觀察到有這樣的情況希望市長這裡可以回去再思考未來如何讓運動幣還是能夠維持它原來的好意就是要鼓勵年輕人多運動接下來我要請教的就是說因為現在運動部已經成立了三個中心"},{"start":4338.351,"end":4349.359,"text":"到三中心但是你們辦公的場所到目前為止看起來也都還是一直是用租用的你們原來的有些場地確實都提供給全國性的體育團體來租用事實上就是說從我們預算書裡面可以看到你們原來的編列的租金的收入大概都是1700萬"},{"start":4360.828,"end":4378.682,"text":"但是實際上到決算的時候只有1452萬那麼依照過去的新聞報導有講說實質上有些少數的協會還會接欠房租那不知道運動部對於這樣的一個狀況是怎麼樣處理呢到底是哪些協會有欠租"},{"start":4380.819,"end":4405.953,"text":"我們基本上我們都理解單向運動協會在經營上面有他們的一個長時間的一個困難我們在運動部成立之後如果一下子就把他們請他們離開體育大樓對他們的運作上面來說會產生非常非常大的一個困擾因此當時在成立運動部之前的規劃的時候就並沒有也不太敢說請他們離開那因為我們現在那你們現在的規劃是怎麼樣呢如果說他還繼續欠繳"},{"start":4410.114,"end":4422.803,"text":"欠繳的部分我們一定會去追回來的可是按照你們自己的作業規定欠繳三個月以上就可以終止契約了所以你剛剛講的那些欠繳的協會到底欠繳的情形有多嚴重有沒有哪些協會是超過一年兩年都不繳房租的"},{"start":4426.687,"end":4433.333,"text":"抱歉委員這一部分的資料現在我手上沒有可不可以容許我回去查完之後再交給好那就麻煩次長那就請你提供給我相關的這個協會有積欠房租的情形好不好讓我們了解那當然就是說是我們可以知道你們其實原來是好意就是提供這個便宜的"},{"start":4445.923,"end":4459.469,"text":"租金而且提供很多的空間去給這些體育團體但是問題是說你們自己現在運動部每年還要燒掉千萬的租金去向別的大樓像冠德大樓去租辦公室目前是"},{"start":4460.519,"end":4477.219,"text":"對那這樣的情況你們有沒有應該要檢討就是未來有些部分的辦公場地你們要收回然後來作為你們自己運動部的場地使用否則的話就是說你們租金的收入也不好但是你們另外又花了更多的錢去到外面去付房租"},{"start":4478.539,"end":4498.281,"text":"這個是現階段的挑戰其實基本上如果我們即便把整個出租的空間全部收回來也不足以讓我們的全民署跟兩個中心共同來使用因此我們目前正積極在尋找另外一個建築的空地看看有沒有可能去蓋一個大樓來讓我們自己來使用"},{"start":4499.633,"end":4509.97,"text":"好 那這個議題也是很重要因為都涉及到人民的公帑而且看起來你們這個115年度的預算光是租用辦公室三層就要花1472萬"},{"start":4513.339,"end":4534.913,"text":"就像我说的如果说你们原来出租出去能够达到的租金的收入可以去cover你们现在的所要付的房租的话那或许还情有可原还可以体谅但是如果说你们自己连租给别人的租金都收不到都收不起然后还要花更多的钱去租其他的办公大楼"},{"start":4535.393,"end":4550.717,"text":"那我認為說運動部這個部分的話就要好好的去思考而且對於欠繳房租的協會一定要趕快積極的去吹繳 好吧好的好 那就這樣 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝洪小林召委接下來我們請王洪威委員來做宣達好 謝謝主席我請那個運動部次長王次長"},{"start":4567.435,"end":4593.193,"text":"委員你好好 市長先請教您就是2027年的世界盃籃球賽亞洲區的資格賽在今年陸續都會開打那這牽涉到就是我們會對上這個中華隊會對上中國隊那現在在3月份要確定本來應該是屬於我們主場的"},{"start":4593.973,"end":4612.881,"text":"因為通常主場就應該在我們的場地來打球現在在3月1號的中華隊對中國隊的賽事現在確定把它變成第三地到菲律賓這是確定了對不對是的"},{"start":4616.577,"end":4632.056,"text":"這個藍鞋表示說因為國際藍種回復說因為當前的地緣政治的背景的考量才決定以往第三地這個非常明顯是政治因素 對不對"},{"start":4633.223,"end":4656.792,"text":"看起來是好 這其實就是政治因素我個人非常反對政治來干預體育政治影響體育雖然在全球在兩岸常常政治都會干預到體育但是我個人是非常非常的反對那好 現在這個幾乎已經成為這個事實因為它是3月1號開打"},{"start":4658.593,"end":4686.382,"text":"但是另外一個就是中國隊以中國為主場的中國隊對上中華隊到目前地點還沒有確定我在這邊的建議和要求就是如果國際藍種因為所謂的地緣政治的關係把原來應該屬於在台灣主場的部分去移到第三地那麼就應該對等"},{"start":4688.14,"end":4710.507,"text":"那麼就應該對等那不要3月1號本來應該在我們這邊打球的把他移到菲律賓但是到了他就是好像7月6號7月6號他這個時間都定下來這個場地去移到中國去來打球的話那我們就絕對不能接受 是不是"},{"start":4711.187,"end":4732.987,"text":"我们一定会请篮球协会去函FIFA跟他说明清楚我们的立场既然要用这样的概念去换到第三地我们也希望在中国大陆比赛的场地也移到第三方的场地去办理这样才叫做互惠互等平等的一个对待的方式但是主办权是在FIFA的本身"},{"start":4734.031,"end":4761.409,"text":"是 沒有錯啦但是我覺得我這個部分我們要有嚴正的立場因為對我們很多球迷來講其實是已經很大的一個弱空而且基本上我是非常反對政治的這個因素去干擾到這個體育的賽事那所以既然要移到第三地那就通通都移到第三地不能夠厚此薄彼是的不然的話對我們的中華隊非常非常的不公平"},{"start":4761.829,"end":4787.511,"text":"我們一定會讓我們的對口我們的窗口一定要表達這個立場到國際籃球總會去好 這個我覺得這是一定要非常非常確定的那另外請教次長一件事情最近還有一個議題是比較熱烈討論的就是有關於體育班體育班要不要廢除的問題那這個其實討論的很多那麼包含這個"},{"start":4790.107,"end":4794.87,"text":"這個體育班過去張亮萬堅也曾經有講過說有研議有研議是先廢除國小的體育班所以我想請教一下次長以目前來說運動部成立我們對於體育班的存廢我們的目前的看法是什麼方向是什麼"},{"start":4816.46,"end":4828.311,"text":"是不是先是階段性廢除還是說先有研議廢除國小的體育班先保留包含中學的體育班現在是不是我們的方向是什麼"},{"start":4829.076,"end":4850.968,"text":"我們的方向其實是要經過一段時間去做轉型特別是國小體育班的部分它是透過轉型的方式而不是直接要把它廢掉尤其在短時間之內如果要把體育班廢掉會有另外一群人受到立刻的影響特別是從小孩子這個地方到教練就業這個地方都會有非常大的影響大概主要是基層教練的部分是的"},{"start":4851.388,"end":4880.615,"text":"不過我個人會認為教育教育它應該最基本的核心是誰學生我覺得我們在討論這個研議要不要存廢或者是轉型的考量裡面沒有錯 我想基層教練一定會擔心如果國小體育班廢除了那基層教練何去何從呢你要不要幫他轉型等等之類那應該要去做考量"},{"start":4881.095,"end":4903.849,"text":"但是這個核心應該仍然是學生的發展所以我覺得在我們整個的研議的過程裡面我還是會希望能夠以學生為主當然基層教練也要比如說你可以是循序漸進的方式先轉型 後備處都可以所以我們現在有在啟動這樣的一個研議方向"},{"start":4904.189,"end":4931.951,"text":"目前運動部跟教育部正密集的討論體育班未來要走的方向因為目前體育班的本身的業務是在教育部裡面所以我們是搭配著他們整個推動的進程持續的跟他們做溝通我們一定會關心到小孩子的發展事實上我個人認為小孩子尤其是小學生的體育班他應該是以發展個人的能力而不是以競賽為主的一種概念所以就是為什麼在比較詬病的地方"},{"start":4932.711,"end":4936.454,"text":"好 那我將剩下最後有兩分鐘我要特別跟我們次長來交換意見的就是我們過去過去我們最怕的就是在運動賽事裡面有任何的賭博介入運動賽事那真的是把我們好不容易苦心把它建立起來的這些職業賽事整個都毀滅了"},{"start":4961.515,"end":4982.516,"text":"最近就是叫做宇刷宇刷在運動賽事裡面非常有名過去他是差一點毀滅我們中職的男人這個是媒體給他的封號因為當時包含他讓張志嘉跟陳志遠都涉入了相關的賭博事件這位他曾經擔任過嘉義市的"},{"start":4986.86,"end":5010.339,"text":"民進黨的議員而且呢在我們賴總統的他當時的競選總部竟然也在設在他的這個就是是他的這個地點就是他的那個房子裡面所以當時連時代力量都曾經批評過時代力量都曾經批評過如果我們支持我們支持運動賽事絕對不能夠沾賭絕對不能夠染上賭博"},{"start":5014.722,"end":5027.695,"text":"那最近呢 最近這位這個雨刷應該對不起嘉義縣的議員蔡振宜他最近又被查出涉入高達225億元的洗錢225億洗錢那他最後呢是以3000萬交保 而且給他說電子監控"},{"start":5037.705,"end":5045.008,"text":"那其實引起刑期網路非常大的不滿因為他的洗錢的金額高達225億而且竟然還讓他走密道擔心他被曝光那大家覺得說到底他是何方神聖是背後有靠山嗎才可以用這樣的方式對他做禮遇"},{"start":5058.613,"end":5082.268,"text":"那當然今天法務部不在等到法務部來的時候我還是會去提醒因為過去我們很多的洗錢這些大亨或者涉及詐騙的或者重大經濟犯罪者那雖然他是重保雖然他是很高額交保但對他們來講根本不在乎那對他來講是九牛一毛最後呢他們都氣跑潛逃這個案子"},{"start":5085.29,"end":5112.84,"text":"這個案子已經有7名的這個被告7名的被告已經潛逃出境這個案子已經7名被告潛逃出境所以我們希望的是不希望再看到曾經涉入差一點毀滅我們中職的男人曾經涉入中職這個賭博然後而且又有這樣的重大洗錢而且還顯然後面有非常雄厚的"},{"start":5113.12,"end":5129.871,"text":"政商實力背景的這樣的一個人在這樣的一個大這樣的重大的洗錢案裡面不要再出現不要再出現我們最不願意看到而且絕對不能容忍的潛逃棄保潛逃出境那當然這個不是我們運動部的這個"},{"start":5134.514,"end":5138.837,"text":"但是呢還是要提醒我們運動部未來就是我們在發展全民運動之際在這些職業賽事裡面我們也非常重要絕對不能讓賭博射入我們這些相關的賽事好不好謝謝委員的提醒在運動場域的賭博運動部是絕對沒有容忍的任何空間對 零容忍絕對沒有好 謝謝好 謝謝王宏威委員接下來請陳培宇委員來做詢問"},{"start":5174.686,"end":5181.94,"text":"好謝謝主席有請考選部還有運動部謝謝請考選部牛部長還有運動部黃次長委員長"},{"start":5185.163,"end":5204.633,"text":"王宏威水打翻了要麻煩後面的好那我們就開始了兩位早安我們就直接就這個考選的部分我想剛前面有非常多委員都問了第一個就是關於體育行政的考科調整相關的運動社會學會也發表了聲明不知道兩位長官有沒有看過這個聲明"},{"start":5206.857,"end":5232.896,"text":"有嗎 好所以我想這個聲明如果你們都看過了然後剛剛我也快速聽到考選部這邊說會再跟運動部積極的溝通做討論跟調整跟修改 對嗎所以不是只會討論是真的會做修改 對嗎目前其實所有的命題大綱並都沒有修改沒有修改喔對 命題大綱並沒有修改可是關於考科的部分呢它只是影響配分而已"},{"start":5233.544,"end":5243.474,"text":"好 可是那我們來講一下可是如果考選部的意見是這樣那運動部你們的意見是什麼我們是配合著做這個考科的一個整併的一個做法"},{"start":5244.096,"end":5268.314,"text":"可是對於你們要禁用的人才專業度是夠的嗎或者是這個專他們這個考科的設計是可以符合你們運動部對於未來相關行政人員的想像嗎現階段在現有的考科的數量之下目前這個狀況我認為是比較現階段那請問市長你覺得可以持續用多少年或者是我們的相關公務人員考進來之後他們後續的增能如何可以跟得上你們運動部未來的政策規劃"},{"start":5269.503,"end":5289.792,"text":"對於社會有反省批判的這個能力對於一個公務人員來說是重要的沒有錯但是就現有的狀況來說不同類別的領域都需要在考試的時候被考慮進去這個我覺得認同現階段我們對行政上面這一塊當時是建議把社會學跟體育行政把它併在一起一開始的時候建議是如此的"},{"start":5290.732,"end":5312.902,"text":"所以我們現在看到12月24號修正發布的考科就是行政法第一科 第二科是世界體育史跟運動社會學第三 運動自然科學第四 體育行政跟管理所以你們認為這樣就夠了所以部長也可以接受這個說法嗎運動部的部長李陽也可以接受這個說法嗎目前是這樣子在進行 目前是可以那你們打算幾年內做調整還是你們如何預告未來的調整機制"},{"start":5313.814,"end":5331.78,"text":"因為其實在我們看來體育行政人員他重要的其實是素養他必須要有社會學等下你說重要的是什麼素養什麼樣的素養素養太含糊了我們光是中小學要定義素養就非常的困難那就行政人員你如何定義素養"},{"start":5332.807,"end":5355.562,"text":"他必須要有一個對社會學這個反思批判的能力去充分的了解社會發展的脈動但是在行政學上面他也必須要有必定的素養否則在行政 在公務人員當中他必須要有一定的行政能力他對於行政法規 行政法這件事情他必須要有所理解同樣的道理在自然科學類也是一樣的"},{"start":5355.902,"end":5373.012,"text":"我們不會需要他知道去如何計算最大攝氧量但是對於運動科學包含科技的元素在他的認知當中在未來推動體育行政的過程裡面他需要有這樣子的素養所以在未來推動政策上面才會跟社會的期待可以吻合"},{"start":5373.652,"end":5399.815,"text":"你剛剛講我完全認同 次長我完全認同我們來看下一張可是我要提醒你們不要忘記了目前所有相關的體育弊案或者是相關的輿情討論其實有好一些你們都沒有兼顧到包含兒少 包含性平 包含運動員權益所以為什麼我剛剛願意讓你把素養講完就是我在看到目前的考科設計當然就考科設計不見得可以看到這些可能還要看到考題的設計"},{"start":5400.876,"end":5408.581,"text":"可是我的意思是說就您剛剛的回應我的答案說是素養然後你談到運動科學談到運動行政這些我都認同可是兒少忽略了性平忽略了運動員權益忽略了所以我也要拜託你們持續再帶回去討論因為這些議題絕對會是你們運動部的重中之重"},{"start":5422.27,"end":5444.658,"text":"相關兒少議題 性平議題 運動員權益您來自運動產業界 您一定知道過去所有 包含王宏偉遠剛問到體育班的事情他就是兒少的議題 他就是性平的議題然後孩子們由小到大在體育班面對就是運動員權益的問題所以你不要告訴我這個不含在你們的素養裡頭所以我就時間有限 我就積極的建議我希望你們兩個月內提供相關評估報告"},{"start":5446.458,"end":5473.91,"text":"給教文還有司法法制的委員在兒少性平運動員權益還有您剛剛所說的素養 運動科學相關你們的規劃給一個報告給所有的委員好嗎有辦法嗎我要運動部這邊運動部我要請運動部先回答可以三個月嗎因為這個東西因為素養的這件事情在考題設計上它有它的一個困難度因為你們運動部要先有態度考選部才能follow對不對好 三個月是嗎那考選部這邊呢"},{"start":5474.884,"end":5499.19,"text":"是不是容我們就是共同來我們會有一個工作小組來討論好不好好 我們就三個月 沒問題再來 謝謝那考選部請回接下來請運動部繼續留步我們來談一下運動產業中心為什麼要把這個題目拉出來說我不知道次長你有沒有參加過運動相關諮詢的委員會議在第六次運動部諮詢小組會議的記錄裡面有一段話很棒"},{"start":5499.85,"end":5521.303,"text":"有一個參與的委員他說國家運動產業中心目前的組織還有任務設計都不是李洋部長的規劃建議部長可以參考韓國跟日本的行政法人經驗例如國外將法人業務包含運動博物館運動誠信防堵的做法"},{"start":5521.823,"end":5546.539,"text":"透過組織 透過任務的調整可以讓行政法人的業務不要直線於運動產業讓法人作為運動部在業務推動上的夥伴非常重要當時鄭麗君副院長也表示認同她甚至還說了國家運動產業發展中心是行政法人而不是運動部的附屬機關"},{"start":5547.78,"end":5575.775,"text":"如果我們對於國家運動產業中心有這個法人高度的想像甚至認為他不應該附屬於運動部那我們來看實際做法可以有什麼來下一張目前運動產業中心相關的規劃因為之前是體育署全權主導到了運動部之後我們看到所有諮詢小組委員在歷次會議上提出的建議一項都沒有被運動部參裁"},{"start":5576.815,"end":5596.614,"text":"一項都沒有喔連鄭麗君副院長說的話也沒有被參採那既然是全新的運動部有了新的部長相關的組織跟編制也都是新的我必須要說我們如何參考國外的經驗然後把現在所有諮詢委員的建議都放進來做一個法人專業執行的規劃的空間"},{"start":5599.597,"end":5619.599,"text":"目前我們看到相關法人你們編制是100人運動部本部是400位其實就這個比例上我也還蠻想知道你們如何想像一 他不要是下屬關係二 產業中心他的法人專業角色可以協助運動部變成很重要的夥伴你們如何想像這個可能性"},{"start":5620.16,"end":5629.069,"text":"我們其實現在在法人的工作上面就是依據設置條例上面的那幾項八大任務去執行他們的沒錯 沒錯就是你剛剛講的這八大任務完全沒有參採好幾次諮詢小組裡面各個專業委員給的建議更不要說這些專業委員是來自於"},{"start":5639.439,"end":5657.176,"text":"有行政院的請託然後有所有專家學者的推薦然後大家不斷的在諮詢會議上把過往對於運動改革的想像全部都交給你們了但是我覺得就算百分之一也好十分之一也好目前看到的是零所以就是你剛剛說的那個沒錯是零"},{"start":5658.337,"end":5676.48,"text":"好 繼續不會是0 因為其實鄭副院長在那一次因為最後我只參加那一次前面的諮詢會議我當時並沒有參與在這個過程當中我清楚的知道鄭副院長的交代我們也一再的跟我們三個法人說法人絕對不是部的附屬機關"},{"start":5677.421,"end":5699.918,"text":"你們有你們獨立行使你們職權尤其是搭配著國家的政策方向去執行內涵在政策上面的內涵由他們去執行這一塊我們期待我們的中心能夠有更獨立自主的一個運作方式他們先在他們的董事會去擬定出來他們的策略方向之後會直接的去進行他們絕對不是我們附屬的一個機關"},{"start":5700.938,"end":5723.691,"text":"謝謝次長說的這麼清楚你剛已經公開說你們絕對不會讓這個法人變成你們的附屬機關所以未來在預算在資源上拜託運動部要支持這個法人發展他的專業讓他成為運動部非常重要的協同夥伴這個部分我們會再觀察所以我這邊提出來的是相關的評估報告可不可以再兩個月給我們這個我們會再跟你們討論可以嗎請你們同仁帶回去三個月"},{"start":5728.433,"end":5749.569,"text":"我看你面有難色 三個圍再來 下一個很荒謬耶 這個藍鞋啊三次都留會 整年都留會現任的理事長叫做謝典寧可以不用來開會喔說議會有事 出國請假三次都留會你們運動部可以接受喔不能接受"},{"start":5750.257,"end":5772.7,"text":"對 太好了 不能接受我們該怎麼辦因為它畢竟還是一個民間的團體可是它拿你們運動部很多錢我知道 第一件事情我們一定會發函到事實上這個禮拜就會發函出去這禮拜什麼時候要發函應該盡快吧因為我的理解是這樣子的它會趕快發函到籃球協會記那你們發函的內容會是什麼我們要促請理事會要有所作為"},{"start":5773.12,"end":5788.017,"text":"有所作為的意思是必須要面對這件事情沒有辦法召開會員大會他必須要透過理事會的決定未來即便理事長不來他都可以繼續召開說得太好了"},{"start":5788.337,"end":5806.712,"text":"即便理事長刻意不來缺席都還是要召開為什麼要召開很重要相關年度工作計劃收支預算員工待遇表這些都需要會員大會來決議還要報主管機關被查更不要講他們今年3月就要改選了對不對"},{"start":5807.853,"end":5824.382,"text":"那在改選之前理事長可以這樣放爛擺爛嗎然後運動部沒有作為我覺得我今天聽到你說你們這個禮拜會發函那我給你一個法理上的建議你聽聽看是不是適當根據來下一張之前吳佩奕委員在教文也有問過還有人頭會員的問題攔協被傳出相關的傳聞已久"},{"start":5829.725,"end":5843.338,"text":"那一樣沒有看到運動部的角色如果按照你們手上有的法理工具叫做國體法第43條對嘛43條是什麼你很清楚對不對進行停職補助或人員懲處那人員懲處會是誰會懲處誰理事長謝典齡"},{"start":5849.364,"end":5870.221,"text":"我就請相關的籃協必須要積極的面對理事長也要必須積極的面對國人除了棒球之外籃球應該是收看率第二高所以我認為站在國人的期待的角度對於運動部的期待也好對於籃協的角度的期待也好對於這個理事長現任的理事長謝典穎的期待也好都不應該是這個樣子"},{"start":5871.622,"end":5897.741,"text":"所以我想如果你們就國體法43條已經非常熟悉了你們有應該要用這個法理工具去處理藍協現在的問題我想在輔導人民團體之前一定要先由他們內部的治理先開始因此我剛剛才會說他現在就不治理啊來再回到前一張他三次都留會啦我們會要求理事會先做處理如果理事會還是沒有辦法處理的話我們不排除動用國體法第43條來來來 次長我們算一下時間我們很務實的說來"},{"start":5900.882,"end":5921.496,"text":"他現在三次流會對不對我們今天開會現在是1月5號馬上你們發公文好了假設這禮拜發我們來算一下這禮拜發然後他說他下禮拜收到1月的第二週然後他什麼時候要回應你他什麼時候應該要開相關的會議你們有沒有盤算我們目前是希望給他10天的時間請理事會給我們回應"},{"start":5923.038,"end":5937.852,"text":"10天請理事會收到文之後等一下收到完之後整個算完可能到1月底了啦然後他有沒有召開會議還未知對吧未知喔然後轉眼2月中就要過年了所以在過年前2月1號到2月中過年這段時間你認為你可以期待他們會召開相關會議嗎你們會要求嗎你們會具體要求嗎"},{"start":5945.339,"end":5958.249,"text":"我們會具體要求理事會做適當的處置因為畢竟他們是會內的事情適當的處置是什麼就是假設理事長不來一樣可以召開好 就是這句話理事長不來一樣要召開相關會議為什麼 因為三月要改選了是的次長拜託 三月要改選如果我們相關改選又讓他沒有辦法完成順利改選我們如何向國人交代然後我們就放任藍協理事會在謝典齡這樣的操控底下"},{"start":5972.14,"end":5991.052,"text":"完全沒有角色非常的可怕所以要拜託次長你剛剛的態度非常清楚我非常謝謝你的態度正向面對就是會一發文要求來寫要積極面對就算理事長不出席他們一樣要召開會議相關的員工待遇啦年度計畫啦工作報告甚至如何去處理三月的改選對不對是的"},{"start":5991.892,"end":6009.492,"text":"好 謝謝我們就期待後續的狀況再來最後一個關於禁藥測驗榜賽事報名這件事情我想你們都知道相關問題我就不再贅述可是因為這個問題真的很大它牽扯到所有要因著體育賽事而升學的孩子們從小到大"},{"start":6010.433,"end":6027.648,"text":"各式各樣的這個狀況那可是你們運動部在過去體育署一年有3000萬委託禁藥基金會做相關的測驗而這個基金會又委託給民間單位結果這個系統出包沒有辦法做禁藥測驗結果相關的賽事就說那不用測驗可以來報名"},{"start":6029.549,"end":6049.366,"text":"這個非常荒謬可是禁藥它只要靠測驗就好了嗎它明明回到教育系統裡面它要去談可是我知道你們之前因為回應立法院很多委員對於禁藥的關心所以你們做這個測驗的平台但是它沒有往下教育的扎根它又出現平台的困境結果又限制了很多學生的報名狀況讓很多的選手非常的焦慮我要提醒您"},{"start":6053.169,"end":6069.55,"text":"所有的學生聯賽全中運 全大運 全民運 全育會甚至是身心障礙的運動會都跟這個禁藥測驗有關那現在你們未來打算怎麼辦我們不排除因為事實上我在上個禮拜才知道這件事情上禮拜你才知道上禮拜才知道"},{"start":6069.77,"end":6092.472,"text":"我們很多學生跟我們澄清他們因為這個賽事綁住靜耀測驗我理解因為平常這個業館不是我在負責的是 您辛苦了但是上禮拜我看到的這個業務我其實不排除我還沒有跟我們運科中心的執行長講因為現階段是那一個廠商他十字大開口他用一個很簡單的東西要求靜耀經紀人跟他用非常高的金額因為要把他綁死而且他要求"},{"start":6093.032,"end":6114.912,"text":"未來只能跟他繼續預約這完全不符合政府採購法的規範因此我們有在思考是不是要請我們運科中心的科技處幫助我們去開發相對不是那麼困難的軟體這件事情我們會來就後續的處理只是短暫時間之內因為不要去影響到學生的參賽的資格所以短暫時間之內我們沒有強制的要求"},{"start":6118.855,"end":6140.855,"text":"必須要提出上課的教育證明才可以報名這個是一個非常臨時的做法因為不可能因為沒有授課的證明而不讓選手報名對整個他們未來的參賽資格跟可能的升學受到太大太大的影響因此短時間的權宜知識是先不要要求他們但是"},{"start":6141.596,"end":6159.845,"text":"教育的這件事情會持續的要求繼續做下去同一個時間我們的ADEL就是我們的Antidoping Education Learning System這件事情已經被WADA認可其實我們可以透過WADA本身的ADEL這個系統直接透過那個系統讓我們的學生去上課因為那個也是中文的系統"},{"start":6160.325,"end":6176.762,"text":"我跟你說WADA這個系統可能也會造成另外一個問題我們本來想要解決問題A就會製造問題B我認為有幾個建議你們聽聽看一回歸教育本質非常重要不要只是測驗我再說一次回歸教育本質不要只是測驗二測驗到底要不要綁著比賽這是第二件事情"},{"start":6177.142,"end":6202.02,"text":"再來有沒有相關行政法人的國家運動禁藥管制機構因為這件事情如同你剛剛說的他必須要跟國際接軌所有我們學生這些對於禁藥的認知相關資訊的保留都會影響到他日後參與國際賽事也代表台灣的體育產業對這件事情是有態度的我們的運動主管機關對於禁藥的管理是有想法的必須跟國際接軌所以我想相關的研議我們辦公室後續會再跟運動部討論好 謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":6205.063,"end":6211.55,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇委員問的人很尖銳回答人也很專業市長不錯接下來我們請省發會委員來做詢答"},{"start":6229.751,"end":6252.31,"text":"主席 先請考選部請考選部 何部長委員早部長早我想今天的主題剛才陳培育委員在質詢的時候有提到首先第一個問題是跟我們司法法制委員會最有關聯的部分這次我們要配合"},{"start":6254.608,"end":6266.001,"text":"因為運動部成立所以我們體育行政人才的考選制度的檢討這是我們今天的一個重要的主題剛才陳培英議員有把那個時間序有關於我們這一次體育行政這個"},{"start":6268.811,"end":6285.079,"text":"考試的專業科目的變動的時程剛才有出來這個部分我看就是剛才有一些部分我們沒有回答到個人比較關心的"},{"start":6287.036,"end":6307.961,"text":"這個你們就是剛才提到在去年的這個11月4號你們做了一個預告做了一個預告那時候預告要把原本的這個體育行政與管理跟這個運動社會學兩顆合併成一顆對不對11月4號你們公告的預告的11月4號到11月10號這個7天的時間你們預告了要改"},{"start":6316.385,"end":6337.738,"text":"什麼叫做這兩顆合併成一顆就是說其實對於考生來講從考生的角度來講就我本來準備200分的這個科目現在這200分變成100分了就只剩下100分這個是對從考生的角度來看就是兩顆的合併那你們在11月4號預告之後馬上在11月10號就引起了這個"},{"start":6338.959,"end":6366.523,"text":"不同的意見11月10號台灣運動社會學學會他們就發表聲明這聲明我想這部長不知道有沒有看到他馬上就是說認為這樣子的合併非常的不妥他們提出了運動社會學的專業地位不容模糊運動部成立之際更應該強化社會學的視野他們提出國際運動賽事的趨勢顯示跨領域整合的必要"},{"start":6368.393,"end":6385.127,"text":"那最後他們結論就是呼籲考選部能夠審慎考量維持運動社會學的作為一個獨立的考科這是他們的訴求那也因為有這樣子的意見我不知道是不是因為這樣的意見總之你們在12月24號你們就召開了一個這個這個什麼會12月24號你們"},{"start":6395.996,"end":6423.555,"text":"你們召開了一個會議這個會議你們就是就是提出這個12月24號公告的一個結論你們結論就是好原本的預告這個就不算了你們就看起來從善如流就改回來再改回來結果你們是把運動社會學跟世界體育史合併為一個考科你們不再跟這個體育行政管理合併了你們把它跟世界體育史合併"},{"start":6425.037,"end":6451.665,"text":"所以你們也是沒有回應同樣的問題他希望維持這個運動社會學的一個獨立考科結果你們沒有還是沒有維持他作為一個獨立考科這樣子的考量是怎麼樣這個部長你要不要說明一下為什麼你們一定要把這個原本獨立的考科的運動社會學要跟其他科目合併本來先跟體育行政管理合併後來在開會之後結果去跟世界體育史合併"},{"start":6452.881,"end":6473.295,"text":"跟委員報告 那我們整併類科是我們整個考試院計定方向那其實現在絕大部分的高考類科專業科目都是四科那只有非常少數譬如說我們的體育行政還保了五科所以這次我們就是必須要把它整併成四科只是說到底是要用專業科目四科"},{"start":6478.238,"end":6499.967,"text":"專業科目其實它的過程就是專業科目從6科變其實我們上次是希望就是在113那時候已經希望是4科可是那時候就是因為很堅持我想每次我們到了要整併科目的時候各個專業團體都非常的堅持那這個時候怎麼辦這時候其實考檢部最應該要尊重的是運動部對 運動部就是相關的主管機關"},{"start":6503.348,"end":6521.795,"text":"但是如果我們運動部有需要說明就下來說但是在那個會議上面我們運動部提出了希望把原來的運動自然科學改為運動科技學你們有沒有採納跟委員報告因為115來不及我們預計要啟動116"},{"start":6525.721,"end":6551.674,"text":"預計要啟動1.6因為我們現在因為任何一次的跟委員報告因為這樣的更動牽涉到都會牽涉到考生的權益啦 我知道不是 他刪減他是法制作業因為我們要刪減一個科目增加一個科目刪減一個科目要廢考試規則增加一個科目要增考試規則這必須完成考試院內部的法制作業所以他一定來不及所以我們必須一定要一定來不及沒有關係啦一定來不及沒有關係但是你們那時候在會議裡面你們是說你們在"},{"start":6553.21,"end":6568.901,"text":"預計在115年就是今年115年你們要全面檢討各類科的考試項目就是說除了這個體育行政以外你們所有的類科的考試項目要在今年全面檢討這是你們的這個會議的結論你們會議結論說會議的結論是專門針對體育行政說考選部預計115年全面檢討各類科考試科目含運動自然科修正案本部屆時將配合"},{"start":6582.751,"end":6612.05,"text":"配合事實提供意見我們基本上應該是針對我們在那個就是體育行政的這一個類科所以不是要全面檢討所以你們在這個會議上面這個結論是親才講的我們那個會議只有討論體育行政類科不可能去討論到什麼類科你們說考選部預計115年全面檢討各類科考試科目本部屆時將配合事實提供意見那是運動部寫的不是我們寫的這是運動部"},{"start":6612.53,"end":6638.605,"text":"不是我們寫的那我們一定是針對我們既然那個會議只針對體育行政我們就只會針對體育行政所以就是應該比較正確的講法是針對這個類科全面去檢討也就是你們116年預計116年的時候會做這些相關的這些考其實現在大學的許多體育科系他們的這個所謂的這個運動自然科學大部分現在都變成運動科技學了"},{"start":6639.629,"end":6666.344,"text":"跟委員報告這我們有跟黃次長有討論過基本上其實黃次長也不認為至少我的認知是他也不認為現在直接把它改成運動科技是一個好的方向現在今年就改當然是今年7月就要考試了今年就改是不行那個運動部至少現在他們的共識是保留運動自然科學這個科目名稱但是變動裡面的命題大綱也就是在既有的命題大綱的各個section裡面"},{"start":6666.964,"end":6669.428,"text":"加入科技元素那這個就是MIDI大綱來修改"},{"start":6672.348,"end":6701.204,"text":"喂 你好 的確是的就是你們現在你們的主張變成這個運動科目名稱不改但是你們的這個內容考題大綱去變動 是的好 這也是一個方向不過今年一定是來不及今年一定來不及這個因為你要顧及到考生準備的權利所以116年可能會做這樣的變動就可能會調整 對因為自然科學裡面包含了生理學 心理學 力學太多太多的把它拿掉也不對"},{"start":6701.784,"end":6719.583,"text":"所以加上科技的元素是比較合理的方式這樣子我同意市長留著 我們考選部可以請回了接下來我想剛才也有委員關心到有關於我們這個運產中心我們是請運產中心董事長一起"},{"start":6726.328,"end":6753.955,"text":"我們在運動部下面三個行政法人國家運動訓練中心跟國家運科中心這兩個都是舊的 原本的現在新設的就是我們這個運產中心這個運產中心我們新設到現在我看到我們在去年的11月25號我們召開了第一次董事會所以我們現在整個董事會都已經組成了董事長也就任了我們目前這個"},{"start":6756.756,"end":6780.336,"text":"這個運產中心的我們那個法制的原額是給你們100人那我看我們預計看這個表上面預計115年就今年預計這個是要禁用44人對不對今年預計那目前有幾人目前現在你們工作人員有幾人現在包含籌備處大概五位"},{"start":6782.315,"end":6811.272,"text":"你們現在董事會都已經成立了是那你們預計今年要44個人但是現在你們才五個人五位 對才五個人而已那有兩位offer later你們現在目前在要在哪裡辦公在那個和平東路三段137號運動在全民運動署大樓全民運動署大樓是不是是好那這個現在你們這個今年預計禁用44人但目前才五個人這樣的禁用的進度"},{"start":6812.352,"end":6833.474,"text":"這個我們董事長你有什麼樣的規劃跟期許報告委員我們現在是從比較高階的包含執行長副執行長還有處長這個層次現在領選那因為我們才成立所以我們最近把招募的人才放到各大網站還有包含我們公務人員的網站"},{"start":6834.414,"end":6855.171,"text":"因為這個跟目標差距有點大這44人跟5人這個一年的時間我希望我們這個運產中心這邊要努力好 謝謝文但是我們還是另外一個在當初設置運產中心的時候當初我們組織條例的審查的時候大家就提出了非常多的"},{"start":6855.891,"end":6867.702,"text":"一個最大的一個問題就是大家對於這個我們這個運產中心的這個角色他跟過去這個經濟部他的對於相關產業的這個權責分工這部分你們現在組成的董事會對於這個權責分工有什麼看法就是你們什麼樣的產業歸你們什麼樣的產業歸經濟部"},{"start":6879.308,"end":6900.1,"text":"好 報告委員我們在運動產業發展條例有13個產業那後面都有民定各個部會來主責比如說有些運動器材它可能就是在原來的經濟部的範疇裡面那屬於運動的賽事都在我們的運動部的範疇裡面所以都有一個民定的項目當然還有一些新增像因為數位的科技粉絲的經濟這些還會在我們的運動本部來擔負這些責任"},{"start":6905.143,"end":6927.919,"text":"這個部分從我們當初在設置運產中心的時候大家就對這個你們的全職分工有很大的這個也不是質疑啦就是說對於大家會很想了解說到底你們的跟經濟部的這個相關的產業的分工到底是怎麼樣啦這部分也請運產中心這邊要掌握運產中心董事長請回我們市長稍微有最後一個問題這個"},{"start":6931.772,"end":6953.001,"text":"有關於一些新興的運動項目要納入全運會的標準我們這個標準現在到底是什麼樣的標準我的理解要把一項運動納入全民運動會它的標準是它這個項目至少要在連續兩屆的世界運動會的在哪一個規定這個規定在哪一個規定應該是在他們的舉辦準則裡面舉辦準則裡面 對"},{"start":6957.328,"end":6971.279,"text":"舉辦準則是每一次的全運會的每一次他舉辦準則都不一樣舉辦準則是一個大致的東西然後要回到籌備縣市他本身是一個籌備會這個市長你所講的所謂舉辦準則應該是全民運動會舉辦準則全民運動會舉辦準則他是按照國民體育法第八條第三項所授權的一個法規"},{"start":6982.808,"end":7001.718,"text":"它裡面我查了半天我沒有看到所謂連續兩屆這個規定沒有那個是在地方的籌備會上面對 那是籌備會上面的所以不是你剛剛講準則所以你剛剛說準則裡面有規定我一看準則的第12條規定是應辦的種類是以世界運動會最近一屆已舉辦最近一屆 它沒有要求連續兩屆最近一屆已舉辦或者是將辦甚至還沒有辦過將辦裡的競賽種類違憲"},{"start":7011.021,"end":7028.108,"text":"也就是說按照你們的這個全民運動會的舉辦準則你只要未來屆屆要辦或者是已經辦過一屆就可以那就可以納入沒有錯可是最後的決定前還是回到了籌備處這個地方回到籌備處那籌備處按照第10我們這個準則的第13條籌備處他有通過了這個運動競賽規程他還必須經過運動競賽審查會審議是所以還是回到你們運動還是回到你們運動部對不對他們必須要先提出來沒錯"},{"start":7040.312,"end":7066.983,"text":"這個有這裡時間的關係這個有關這個像舉例像是這個自由潛水這個項目這項目的這個在去年開始他們就一直在爭取要納入因為這個自由潛水它在2025年成為世界運動會的項目之一也就是它符合第12條它是已經舉辦過而且在這個賽事裡面我國這個張凱翔選手他還拿到世錦賽"},{"start":7068.143,"end":7076.421,"text":"的這個金牌這是我們國家有競爭力的項目那他也符合這個全民運動會的準則他已經舉辦過一屆"},{"start":7079.153,"end":7098.282,"text":"那希望要納入抱歉委員一屆這件事情是一個標準事實上還要考量的是國內可以參賽的人數跟隊伍如果報名的隊伍未達也就是沒有八個縣市可以組隊他還是辦不起來所以他必須要去考量這樣的事情都可以考量但是像這樣子有國際競爭力的我們在這個市警賽有奪金"},{"start":7103.644,"end":7118.55,"text":"那他也已經納入試運會的這個標準當然你們每一年的舉辦項目你們必須公告一年前所以在今年的這個全運會已經來不及了來不及但是在兩年後你們如果堅持按照現在規定一定要舉辦兩屆試運會的話所謂兩屆試運會就是八年的時間一個比賽一個選手的黃金黃金時期就這樣八年就這樣過了"},{"start":7128.513,"end":7141.207,"text":"等到你們說好兩屆了可以辦了全運會可以辦的時候這比賽這這些選手的黃金的這個這個黃金時期就過了那按照你們的法定的這個這個準則是只要辦過一屆"},{"start":7142.813,"end":7165.492,"text":"委員的訴求我們充分的理解所以我剛剛才回到說這個東西提出來的時候要看看到底國內的參賽人數有沒有辦法達成比賽的時候的規模雖然我們有一位兩位少數幾位很優秀的選手但是要成為全國的全民運動會的運動種類他是不是要有足夠的隊伍來報名他才有辦法舉行比賽"},{"start":7166.412,"end":7179.647,"text":"所以如果在没有办法那么多队伍的时候我们还是以单项旗标赛的方式来处理我们这样子一个一个这个你当然了还有很多很多其他条件嘛还有很多其他但是你们当初当初你们在这个"},{"start":7181.469,"end":7203.519,"text":"桃園市政府的這個在115年全民運動會競賽規程裡面他之所以不納入就是拿出所謂的兩次試運費要兩次才可以但是事實上在這個準則裡面是只要一次就可以所以你們在法律上站不住腳你現在就提出說參賽人數足或不足參賽隊伍足或不足這個在當初的整個討論過程中沒有這個問題"},{"start":7205.698,"end":7214.032,"text":"所以這個部分是不是請時間的關係我就希望你們能夠提出一個書面報告包括從剛才的所有我們剛剛講的這個我們這個"},{"start":7222.687,"end":7241.632,"text":"我們這個運產中心的這個相關的這些規劃它的政策定位 它的推動機制 績效評估它的績效評估方式以及我剛剛所講的這個新興的運動項目納入這個全運會的部分你們三個月內提示會報告給我好不好"},{"start":7242.892,"end":7259.225,"text":"好 謝謝沈發衛委員好問題那其實也可以多一點彈性在原來的我們現在的一個規定裡面看如何讓他有更好的一個發揮也照顧到運動員這種一個舞台接下來我們請最專業的吳斯堯委員感謝辛苦的主席有請那個黃次長請黃次長你好"},{"start":7272.877,"end":7292.208,"text":"次長好思堯過去都在教育文化委員會這個會期在司法但是關心我們運動部成立我想在台灣社會即便有歧義政治上有對立但真的唯有運動這件事情是可以凝聚跟團結全國的"},{"start":7292.748,"end":7319.628,"text":"所以我非常希望朝野跟社會各界支持運動大家心口合一大家都一起來支持新成立的運動部所以我今天四個方面來跟您做討論一個當然是巧婦無難為無米之炊運動的預算不能斷炊第二呢要因應新時代全方位的運動發展多元的人才要補齊第三個也要"},{"start":7321.041,"end":7336.696,"text":"避免別人掠台灣之美所以呢境外敵對勢力無所不在的運動統戰我們如何防衛第四個當然長期關切運動員的權益體育改革有沒有到位四個面向下一頁"},{"start":7337.817,"end":7365.308,"text":"那當然風光成立的運動部那到現在各個競技全民運動不可偏廢我們的產業發展我們的運動外交都要精進很重要的是有了組織人力預算是缺一不可的下一頁那就總預算到現在還沒有審運動部是首當其衝難道我們的在野黨的委員都要跟運動迷為敵嗎"},{"start":7368.393,"end":7395.819,"text":"我這裡整理出來的是總預算未審那兩大面向的支出一個就是新興的計劃8.6億受影響包括台灣品牌賽事精選計劃包括國家運動科學中心的興建計劃都受到波及這是新興計劃另外一個部分是經常性經費跟延續性的資本支出也有29.9億"},{"start":7397.919,"end":7425.808,"text":"受到影響而這個部分我們立委都來自全台灣各縣市補助地方政府興建運動場館場地設施就是要這一筆29.9億但總預算沒審8.6億加29.9億加起來是38.8億等於是三分之一百分之三十二運動部的預算每天每當我的整理資訊正確嗎是的"},{"start":7427.609,"end":7439.29,"text":"那你們現在怎麼因應我們只能拜託大院幫我們審查預算拜託大院那我們這些大院的委員都視而不見怎麼辦"},{"start":7441.065,"end":7452.733,"text":"我們還是只能拜託大家對 我們就是誠心誠意的拜託當他們視而不見我們就要講得更大聲讓他們聽見全民支持運動的聲音讓運動員站出來讓運動團體來發聲讓這些縣市政府知道他們的興建場館也會受到波及"},{"start":7466.482,"end":7489.859,"text":"應當大家總動員一起對在野黨的立委喊話不要讓運動部剛成立小孩還沒開始學會走路他就先絆倒了他我還是要再次強調要把這些事實要把這些內容向社會論述好不好我們再加把勁好嗎是的"},{"start":7490.299,"end":7511.109,"text":"我看您質詢備詢一個早上您對業務非常的熟悉但是我們要讓社會一起來共感總預算沒有審查運動部新部會就是很大的影響再加把勁好嗎下一頁那人力的部分人力到現在運動部的"},{"start":7512.878,"end":7529.29,"text":"領補率只有64.8全民運動署也只有41.1還缺各缺111人各缺66人這樣怎麼辦你要多少時間可以補多少這個可能請我們人事處的處長幫忙回答一下"},{"start":7530.748,"end":7547.546,"text":"我知道你們很努力啦但是對 因為我們幾乎每一天都有職缺災公告上網那其實因為我想各單位都有缺人的一個情況所以我們已經盡量的加速來領補那這個部分我們已經就是各單位都非常的努力所以這也是"},{"start":7549.168,"end":7554.393,"text":"有如登天海南的任務但是既然國家給了原額我們也編列了預算沒有好的人才就沒有辦法做事一個部分是量要補齊第二個部分是質要更多元剛剛有很多委員都垂詢到今天的主題我們在考科有整病"},{"start":7571.267,"end":7592.738,"text":"但是能不能夠達到新時代對於運動政策的多元的需求運動行銷運動科研體育外交產業經濟我們的教考訓用有沒有精準對接很多委員都垂詢了我的結論是真的是還要再更縝密的去思考它"},{"start":7593.718,"end":7611.323,"text":"所以你量要補補進來的人也真的要能夠精準使用好不好今天這個可能需要更長的時間來討論但是我也提點出這樣一個我的主張下一頁謝謝委員人才要很多元我一直在講新時代對於運動政策的挑戰"},{"start":7612.723,"end":7634.445,"text":"今天我不曉得你有沒有看到這個自由時報很大的報導中國對台灣發動的這些網攻資訊戰每日263萬次當然目前聚焦在能源設施能源基礎關鍵設施成長了百分之一千"},{"start":7635.726,"end":7650.978,"text":"在緊急救援或者是醫療體系成長了54%通訊的機構也成長了將近7%目前為止我們的運動發展設施好像還幸免於難"},{"start":7652.159,"end":7674.988,"text":"但不代表未來這些資訊這些網工不會來騷擾攻擊我們的運動相關的設施所以我說人才要多元我們有沒有足夠的資安防護人力呢謝謝委員的提醒我們其實對於資安這件事情運動部成立以來我已經"},{"start":7675.848,"end":7703.057,"text":"不只一次的要求我們資訊處對於資安的這件事情在我們所屬的機關裡面的所有的資安必須要拉高等級而運動部在整個行政院的資安等級當中我們是屬於第二級是B級我們會非常努力的去把它做很好你們有意識到這件事情我們自己內建的人才要有相關的資安防護專業當然跨部會的協作跟速發部也要強化這些連結好嗎下一頁"},{"start":7705.638,"end":7729.125,"text":"同樣的 這個中國蹭台灣的運動啊已經是他們現在開始鎖定運動統戰不管是對於個別運動員或是賽事賽會的加油團來打壓我們看到林荺茹在中國比賽被迫別上了紅領巾我們看到我們世大運跆拳道的男團在奪得銀牌的時候還被中國代表隊來搶賀電"},{"start":7731.126,"end":7745.685,"text":"這些事情 個別事件都讓我們知道中國把運動不當輸台灣他們看的比什麼都重 對不對小粉紅很脆弱各方面都要來打壓台灣這是對於個別運動員"},{"start":7748.268,"end":7764.738,"text":"會造成的一個參賽的心理壓力在下一頁更嚴重的是2019年11月中國就發佈了關於進一步促進兩岸經濟文化交流合作的若干措施當中就mark出來在運動面向"},{"start":7765.638,"end":7784.172,"text":"要啟動運動的統戰全面吸收台灣運動員及教練這是中國的統戰有步驟有計劃而且是現在進行式我們看到CPB中國城市的這個職棒的聯賽什麼都要訪我們的中華職棒連對名logo什麼長沙旺旺什麼這個這個什麼還有上海兄弟"},{"start":7793.539,"end":7813.078,"text":"都要吃我們豆腐都要蹭台灣的棒球就代表他們是有計劃甚至他們的CPB是30人的隊裡頭至少要10人來自於台港澳從來沒有任何一個國家他們預計2028年要成立職棒沒有任何一個國家鎖定單一國家去吸收成員的"},{"start":7814.159,"end":7831.229,"text":"所以說對於這些的因應跟防範有沒有列為運動部重要的一個政策面向當然是有的以職業運動來講我們唯一能夠做的先能夠做的事情是先讓我們自己的系統非常的好也就是他們沒有那樣的吸引力吸引我們台灣的天分的人"},{"start":7832.65,"end":7858.218,"text":"這是第一個要做的一件事情同一個時間我們從教育的觀點來講我們會持續的而事實上已經在做的是要讓我們的選手理解到在做這些事情的過程當中千千萬萬不要落入了那一個被統戰的一個對象這個是自己本身要有自覺性的好 今天時間很短我都點出重點那看來你們也有把這件事情要列為你們To Do List當中的Priority"},{"start":7860.038,"end":7879.756,"text":"否則我們好不容易發展起來的壯大的運動的這些運動員結果最後被人家搶走了被人家去政治統戰了運動不分顏色運動不要跟政治掛鉤我們就是要這樣子誠心誠意的來推展運動的進行最後一個運動員的權益"},{"start":7882.898,"end":7904.455,"text":"這個是10月23行政院的運動部的諮詢小組第六次會議我們看到這個足球公會的代表也再一次的提出那當然足協的理事長新任也上任了可是呢2022年開始女足國家隊這些積欠足協積欠的款項是不是都還沒解決嗎"},{"start":7905.996,"end":7933.315,"text":"所以我從這件事情來看夏業我們其實都知道諮詢小組第六次會議鄭麗君副院長也提到了我們全面要來支持鼓勵運動員組工會而且要跟工會建立常態性的溝通機制現在台灣幾個運動員工會我的理解應該是三個女足 直籃 直棒我們要支持運動員組工會這個方向是的"},{"start":7935.456,"end":7955.795,"text":"然後已經成立了工會你要常態性的溝通機制來知道他們需要什麼這是我們該做的事情下一頁但是我看到你們我們在運產條例當初在訂定的時候該修法的時候也提到要提升這方面的政府的作為不管是輔導獎勵補助各方面"},{"start":7956.616,"end":7971.542,"text":"但我看到你們剛剛公告的這一個職業或業餘運動員公會或團體輔導獎勵的補助辦法我歸納了四個特色第一個它還是行政補助的老套路"},{"start":7972.469,"end":7996.198,"text":"第二個也沿用了一般民團的補助的邏輯沒有思考到運動產業的特殊性第三個我認為不同工會的文化組織會有不同階段以及差異化的需求不應當是一致一套樣板第四個審查的流程欠缺"},{"start":7996.938,"end":8021.998,"text":"明確的準則也沒有足夠的透明公開這是我提點出來了幾個面向運動部成立之後我們照顧運動員的權益支持工會的成立而政府部門就要跟工會有運作非常順暢的溝通協力的機制我目前看到了做得還不夠"},{"start":8024.594,"end":8049.465,"text":"努力來做好嗎我希望我下會期可以成功的回到教育文化委員會我們就有更多的時間一起來支持我們的國家運動部幾個面向一起加油謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝我們最美麗的五十一號委員大家都想要選那個讚美都是發自主席的內心要主席讚美些什麼也可以提供來 接下來請我們最帥氣的羅志強委員來做詢問"},{"start":8059.912,"end":8063.615,"text":"有請運動部黃次長請黃次長委員你好次長好運動部揭牌的時候李洋部長曾經提出六大工作重點你還記得第六項是什麼嗎"},{"start":8078.03,"end":8104.6,"text":"我跟您說好了加強兒童及青少年培育從校園跟社區紮根建立完整的人才培育系統讓孩子們可以在運動中找到希望跟實現夢想這是第六項現行體育人才的培養目前有很多都是從中小學的體育班開始包括我們的李洋部長是小學五年級就讀體育班到高中畢業"},{"start":8106.021,"end":8112.67,"text":"那外界對於體育班有很多檢討的聲浪那次長認為現行的制度有哪些問題需要改進呢"},{"start":8113.275,"end":8139.936,"text":"現在的現行制度在過去一段時間可能在尤其是在越低層的年齡比較小的過度的被強調運動的成績導致於訓練的時間有些時候為了爭取成績訓練的時間太長而讓他們該要有的學習的內容一般的學習的內容而被剝奪掉了這是現階段在社會上最大最大一個關心的一個地方對於基層的體育班"},{"start":8140.436,"end":8164.491,"text":"事實上也像次長說的為了瞭解台灣體育班制度下運動員的真實處境人本基金會去年有邀16位曾經是體育班的學生訪談調查顯示我目前的學生運動員普遍面臨過量訓練剛剛次長講到缺乏科學化支持 運動傷害頻發"},{"start":8166.272,"end":8186.427,"text":"以及被迫犧牲学习时间的处境那更令人忧心的是很多受访者他经历过一些教练的身心暴力言语羞辱或者不合理体罚甚至也有一些性贫的事件也陆续发生那体育班的制度设计核心本来是想要为国争光啊"},{"start":8186.827,"end":8216.533,"text":"但现在过早将儿童推入高强度的专一项训练有很多的学生运动员在国中高中就放弃学业有些学生选择体育班他不完全是出于对运动的热情而是变成是没有其他选择在这个体育班的制度的一个状况之下有些学生在追逐奖牌跟荣耀的同时也付出健康跟学习人格受辱的一些巨大的代价"},{"start":8217.214,"end":8242.516,"text":"那对于这样的一个状况我想问一下体育班的制度要怎么样去把刚刚讲的这些问题把它加以彻底的解决那运动部跟教育部要怎么分工那体育班学生要怎么具体的方式能够兼顾学业跟运动专长那甚至比较偏军事化管理的一些可能的一些问题那这些问题我不知道次长有什么样的想法目前 谢谢委员"},{"start":8243.297,"end":8258.417,"text":"目前體育班的業務是在教育部這個地方所以整體的推動會在教育部那個地方但是運動部會持續的跟教育部來做分工跟溝通以我們本身的想法是我們希望小孩子在成長的過程當中"},{"start":8259.318,"end":8286.963,"text":"不要太過於強調競技的成績但是我們要發展的是小孩子的運動能力運動能力跟競技能力是不一樣的我們希望透過他快樂的成長過程當中就具備這樣的好的身體的能力未來有機會成為優秀的選手的時候再進入到專項的訓練而在這個過程當中他們的學習不要因為投入過長的訓練而導致的學習受到的阻礙"},{"start":8287.803,"end":8315.169,"text":"這是我們目前基本的一個立場他是透過一個逐漸的轉型的過程去達到這樣的理想我們也希望小孩子的比賽盡量不要長時間一次出去比賽三個禮拜 兩個禮拜這樣出去比賽就完全喪失了學習的機會所以在未來的賽制的調整當中我們會希望他留在家裡的附近當天比完賽 當天就回家隔一天早上還是乖乖的回到學校去做一個學生該有的學習的一個過程"},{"start":8315.971,"end":8342.528,"text":"非常謝謝次長 謝謝我們現在請考選部劉孟齊部長請劉部長委員好部長我想請教一下去年高普考總共多少人報考入取率是多少去年大概是 最後是五萬七千多五萬七千多人入取率大概接近15大學畢業的報考高考三級入取率是多少"},{"start":8343.488,"end":8358.662,"text":"我們應該是錄取率應該接近15左右 15到我這邊看到是22.89大學畢業報考的高考三級我講高考三級我想請教一下部長前年高普考總共多少人報考"},{"start":8360.124,"end":8387.061,"text":"應該是六萬 超過六萬 六萬一吧六萬七千五百零八人嘛那比起去年這個下降了八千多人嘛 對不對對那高普考如果加上初等考試 特種考試 升等考試跟軍人轉公務員考試2024年報考公務人員的總數是多少2024年大概是前年啦二十大概二十十六萬啦"},{"start":8389.127,"end":8410.66,"text":"16萬 看到數據16萬沒關係 我們可能還會再把特考也算進來這應該很多媒體都有報導然後 考去年是多少去年接近15 去年是15萬 去年15你的數字怎麼跟我的都不太一樣我們人事長 我去質詢人事長他說是11萬"},{"start":8413.137,"end":8437.436,"text":"我們把這些再加起來再提供給委員可以嗎但是不管怎麼樣講事實上你可以看到整個的趨勢快速的往下掉我想請教您您知道根據考選部的資料2008到2015年馬政府八年任內舉辦公務人員考試平均每年多少人報考平均"},{"start":8442.127,"end":8464.375,"text":"45萬人你知道蔡英文總統的8年平均每年多少人報考委員 因為剛剛那個數字可能裡面又有含到特考專輯等等是不是我們再去確認一下沒關係 我講的是公務人員我講公務人員所以你剛剛可能講的是包括特考專輯的在裡面沒關係 現在是有減少 是沒有錯我告訴你就是"},{"start":8469.122,"end":8493.74,"text":"蔡英文政府是25萬人25萬3000多人那可是剛剛已經跟你講到你看到前年16萬去年11萬你從不管是從馬政府的45萬到蔡政府的25萬然後到前年的16萬到去年的11萬市長你有發現問題的嚴重性嗎考選部有發現問題的嚴重性嗎這個人數的確是在減少不是減少"},{"start":8498.877,"end":8515.641,"text":"是減少的很恐怖沒錯吧沒錯吧以11萬跟45萬的這個平均來看就是馬政府45萬跟去年的11萬來比較的話只剩下四分之一不到沒錯吧"},{"start":8517.103,"end":8544.758,"text":"數字我們容我們再確認一下我要考選部拜託數字還是要搞得更清楚一點數字容我們再確認一下幾乎在我們在講那個公教年改問題的時候已經討論一整年了這數字已經大家已經討論一整年了所以說我覺得部長這邊數字部分還是要再掌握一下那事實就是什麼呢就是整個的報考人數大幅下降"},{"start":8546.104,"end":8551.59,"text":"那我想請教一下就是說你覺得大幅下降的原因是什麼"},{"start":8553.238,"end":8576.353,"text":"如果是這幾年的話主要還是市場景氣把技術類科的人拉走了這個我們有去檢視它不只技術類的報考的大幅下降還是以技術類科為主其他的還是全面都在下降下降的幅度沒有到那麼大但技術類科下降的很激烈你要拿降的最多的來比當然是技術類科降的最多後面也會跟你講我告訴你最重要的原因是什麼"},{"start":8577.751,"end":8593.803,"text":"除了掃紙化的因素經常我看到很多官員答詢就講掃紙化掃紙化當然是因素啦可是掃紙化那個進行那個降幅那個協率沒有現在公務人員調的協率這麼高啦那包括公務人員的福利待遇跟退休條件"},{"start":8595.064,"end":8610.252,"text":"這些都大不如前也讓公務員不像過去被認為是一個嚮往的職業那以前公務員他擁有穩定的薪資待遇年資的續薪制度以及包括退休保障所以他就算被剝奪組織工會罷工兼職這些勞動權益他也覺得是"},{"start":8615.074,"end":8642.091,"text":"能夠接受但是因為犧牲權力可以換來退休生活無虞這是一個所謂的價值選擇可是很抱歉近年來我覺得這些功能都在弱化當中所以我還是要特別強調一件事情我非常遺憾說今天行政院不是說恢復公教的退休保障到2018年以前的水準而是光停侃的這件事情到現在的態度就是不執行"},{"start":8643.035,"end":8655.063,"text":"然後要去釋憲我覺得真的是無視於我們今天人才整個公務體系人才大幅崩解的一個現象我希望考選部能夠多多為我們公務員發聲以上 謝謝好 謝謝羅志強委員的詢答接下來我們要請最近 喔這訓練到現在紅亮眼的那位做國際巨星的黃國昌委員"},{"start":8675.539,"end":8679.356,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請運動部的政事請黃次長"},{"start":8686.178,"end":8710.545,"text":"委員你好你好我一直關心運動體育館運動紀念館 運動博物館的事情從日本甲子園的歷史館我們要保留當代優秀選手以及整個國家對於運動的歷史記憶法國在尼斯的國家體育博物館"},{"start":8711.906,"end":8733.276,"text":"可以說是一個相當成功的典範目前展出有10萬件運動的產品美國當然他們在職業比賽非常興盛的情況之下他們重要的大聯盟也有所謂的名人堂這樣子的博物館出現"},{"start":8736.545,"end":8757.213,"text":"過去從學者到球員包括了成大歷史系的教授包括了我們非常知名退役職棒的選手也是目前球牙基金會的創辦人周思齊都在大力的奔走台灣需要一座國家運動博物館當初里昂部長在上任"},{"start":8764.52,"end":8789.737,"text":"部長之前 上任部長之前大概9月9號他上任部長的時候他說他換了辦公室但他初中沒有忘記我們來看一下李洋當初的初中他在7月4號的時候行政院體育及運動發展部諮詢小組第五次會議記錄他說我們有許多資深運動員的歷史沒有被傳遞"},{"start":8791.192,"end":8811.078,"text":"那使得該項目運動員幼苗對歷史不了解且認同度不高他贊成設立運動博物館這是部長上任以前在諮詢小組會議當中他的初衷那今天沒有機會請教到部長但沒有關係部長雖然不在但我覺得我們"},{"start":8813.768,"end":8832.853,"text":"運動部應該有一個政策立場上一次8月7號我請教鄭世忠次長的時候我必須要老實講鄭世忠次長非常會講官話官話一堆說是往這個方向去進行目前執行的進度到哪裡"},{"start":8833.789,"end":8846.278,"text":"目前我們國家運動博物館已經在做評估的工作也就是我們拜託成功大學的謝士淵教授幫我們在做整體的規劃我們期待把那個規劃做出來之後這個規劃要多久"},{"start":8848.871,"end":8868.525,"text":"半年之內可以完成半年之內規劃的內容是什麼它就是未來的選址跟未來舉行的樣態現階段我們已經在做的是因為博物館是一件事情可是這一些第一個事情我們先把規劃的內容是什麼先講清楚第一個要成立這個是確定的嗎是第二個你說它在規劃還包括選址"},{"start":8870.843,"end":8883.624,"text":"沒有要選擇 他是告訴我們希望能夠有什麼樣的樣態再提供給各地方政府來提出所以你說這個事情是半年嗎這個計畫本身 這個規劃案的本身是半年"},{"start":8884.307,"end":8903.512,"text":"半年他要提出來說裡面大概要放多少東西需要多少面積然後讓各個地方政府來爭取是嗎他會先從功能上來講起而不至於到小細節大概要有多大的面積不是 我現在關心的事情是我們的政府非常會做委託研究"},{"start":8904.844,"end":8932.663,"text":"花納稅人的錢委託研究做一堆啊我真正關心的事情是什麼我真正關心的事情啊是針對有關於運動文化記憶的收藏保存在線展示及推廣這個是運動部組織法第二條裡面本部所掌理事項的範圍嘛是的那按照部長所做出來的承諾我們就是需要一個國家級的運動博物館嗎"},{"start":8934.073,"end":8951.506,"text":"那整個期程你們有沒有估計需要多久半年要做規劃沒有關係那你就去做規劃那半年規劃完了以後呢他就會根據那個規劃的東西我們把細部的需求給提出來細部的需求提出來需要多久"},{"start":8956.813,"end":8982.053,"text":"做事情要有時辰啦要不然全部都在講空話啦我很擔心這一屆立委結束了以後下一屆立委再上來問一樣是在研議啦需要多久目前絕對不會是研議沒有關係嘛 需要多久 就說清楚嘛需要兩年 需要三年 還是不知道他真正要提出來那一個選址的東西可能要到明年去明年可以選址是嗎"},{"start":8984.124,"end":9010.694,"text":"可以提出來沒有關係我們就記得今天的詢答內容看明年是不是真的可以開始選址站在新北市的立場我當然會希望新北市大力的爭取國家級的運動博物館就設立在新北市新北市幅員遼闊有很多很適合的地方等你們初步的規劃出來了以後我們再進一步來談第二件事情"},{"start":9013.697,"end":9039.155,"text":"我第一次當立法委員的時候我們在推動體育改革那時候蔡英文全國運動全國體育高峰會體育政策有五大策略等到2017年我們結合了民間的力量推動體育改革的時候蔡英文是怎麼說的"},{"start":9041.003,"end":9069.403,"text":"協會的存在是為了幫助選手不是要壟斷資源不能好好照顧選手的協會我們就叫他改革這是當初2017年的時候在推動體育改革提出來的願景我離開立法院四年以後我再回來立法院我非常驚訝的發現過去所要改革的協會到底改革了沒有"},{"start":9070.495,"end":9099.363,"text":"看了令人瞠目結舌我們國家級的選手出去比賽出場費沒有拿到結果竟然收到扣繳平單錢沒有付結果竟然收到扣繳平單這是什麼荒腔走板的事情這件事情我揭露了以後當初的教育部"},{"start":9100.479,"end":9128.695,"text":"體育署是能拖就拖能混就混我受不了我才請審計部進來幫忙查賬審計部查完了以後認為知識體大非常嚴重要移送法辦市長知不知道我在講哪個協會知道目前這個案子進度如何目前他們積欠款的部分已經有做了部分的償還兩個部分第一個部分"},{"start":9129.807,"end":9155.676,"text":"沒有給選手錢竟然選手會收到扣繳平單這是公然的偽造文書嘛當然是移送法辦嘛這個已經移送了當然嘛是你們移的喔是你們移的喔你好意思在那邊講這麼大聲喔是你們移的嗎是你們移的嗎當時我不在部裡面沒有關係啊那針對這件事情有哪些人被懲處了"},{"start":9158.267,"end":9178.156,"text":"應該還在調查當中吧還在調查調查到今天還在調查這不是很可笑嗎調查到今天還在調查我聽不下去啊一年多了到現在還在調查要調查到什麼時候不用一直按啊剛審發會質詢了16分鐘啊"},{"start":9181.601,"end":9207.982,"text":"我有計時啊 就按照同一個規格比照辦理就可以了我也沒有要求要多審判會質詢了16分鐘不相信你直接去掉袋子還要調查多久還要調查多久不知道懲處了哪些人根本就傳過水無痕嘛根本就傳過水無痕嘛"},{"start":9210.834,"end":9236.084,"text":"看到這麼誇張的狀況想想蔡英文當初對全國人民的承諾不會覺得很可恥嗎不會覺得很諷刺嗎還不僅是這個樣子迷你足協體育署這迷你足協很夠力的啦非常夠力啊每一年補助迷你足協上千萬上千萬"},{"start":9238.086,"end":9260.898,"text":"民族協也很懂得要怎麼樣配合民進黨在進行各式各樣活動的操作結果呢 結果我公開檢舉公開檢舉說民族協裡面胡搞瞎搞 戰亂七八糟我2024年3月的時候 我就檢舉了10個月過去9度詢問"},{"start":9265.879,"end":9289.415,"text":"給你們要資料 就是不給那是教育部體育署那個時候的事情等到神總預算的時候我要用凍結預算的方式東西才肯交出來交出來還用密件遮掩我是不曉得這有什麼好密件的啦怕全體國人知道迷你足協啊 污了一千六百多萬"},{"start":9290.953,"end":9310.666,"text":"用假的單據搞了一千六百多萬更誇張的狀況是什麼更誇張的狀況是我每一次質詢都說會去追會去把他要回來甚至還在公文書上面造假說他已經繳回來我進一步問數字啊我嚇一大跳繳回來的五十三萬這個數字現在有變動嗎有增加嗎"},{"start":9318.426,"end":9331.717,"text":"確實的數字我不清楚但是我們當時的做法是希望他要償還當然啊 但是我覺得我們國家對民營租鞋很寬容誒誤了1600多萬 只還回53萬剩下的錢怎麼辦我繼續追查發現說哇 十年分期付款"},{"start":9339.761,"end":9361.61,"text":"是迷你足協才有這個待遇還是大家都有這個待遇以後是不是所有的協會比照辦理拿假的單據污了錢以後要你把錢交回來迷你足協可以分10年分期付款以後所有的協會都可以比照同一個規格10年分期付款這個是現在我們運動部的政策嗎"},{"start":9365.487,"end":9394.376,"text":"這是運動部的政策嗎當然不是當然不是 那奇怪了啊那民理足協為什麼可以跟大家講清楚嘛憑什麼他可以如果這不是運動部的政策憑什麼民理足協可以 其他協會不可以講個道理嘛我看不懂啊因為民理足協八股比較強有人撐腰所以分十年 是這樣嗎"},{"start":9396.323,"end":9422.865,"text":"我們是希望他能夠償還 你一下子要讓他償還他償不出來 他還是沒辦法所以我們是希望他承諾在十年之內還清涉及到相關的犯罪行為人在民法的侵權行為上全部都是共同侵權行為人都要負連帶的損害賠償責任運動部隨便問一個律師就知道大學二年級法律系的學生就可以回答"},{"start":9426.763,"end":9432.947,"text":"請教一下我們昭偉很有名的律師共同侵權行為人 負年代損害賠償責任給他分十年 但是呢迷你足協已經連續兩年會都開不起來了沒有辦法正常運作在這樣的情況下你還給他分十年錢追得回來嗎會都開不起來了 錢繳得出來嗎"},{"start":9453.991,"end":9481.544,"text":"有在認真追償嗎 這是我的問題啊運動部做了這個決策 給他分10年償還到時候錢沒有交回來 誰要負責任誰要負責任誰拍板給他分10年分期付款的誰要負責任還是反正到時候時間久了沒有人會記得這件事情了 呼呼欸算了 mentor 是這樣嗎"},{"start":9484.642,"end":9510.607,"text":"是这样吗不会那你要怎么确保你十年收的回来这是我的问题啊我的理解当时是在双方协议之下做出来当然嘛我如果是迷你足协我当然跟你做这个协议嘛我爽的不得了啊我爽的不得了啊法律责任不追究共同侵权行为人的损害赔偿责任不追究还十年分期付款到时候人都不晓得跑到什么地方去了"},{"start":9513.42,"end":9533.667,"text":"當初誰做這個決策的誰拍板他可以分十年分期付款的誰決定的誰決定的誰負責嘛在政治上本來就是這樣嘛誰掌握這個權利誰做這個決策誰要負責嘛誰做這個決策的不知道"},{"start":9536.058,"end":9563.027,"text":"當時這個會議沒有關係回去找麻煩次長轉告李洋部長這是我的問題這不是李洋部長的國我也不會怪在他身上因為當初他還沒有接部長但鄭世忠一定很清楚請部長回去問鄭世忠當初誰做的決策的那個決策的會議紀錄一個禮拜之內送到我辦公室來可以嗎"},{"start":9564.526,"end":9582.254,"text":"給我們一點時間去找好嗎一定找得到啦還是現在毀屍滅跡連會議記錄都燒了不會絕對不會嘛你需要多久但是一個禮拜可能對我們來說沒關係一個月好不好一個月之內送來可以嗎會議記錄的部分可以可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員"},{"start":9595.1,"end":9604.649,"text":"好 謝謝我們辛苦大家要不要喝口水 次長好 又請我們最專業戴婉雄站莊瑞雄交委質詢謝謝美麗的主席來 我請我們考選部劉部長還有我們運動部很專業的黃次長委員長"},{"start":9622.156,"end":9643.739,"text":"先請教兩位,尤其是我們黃次長,就你的專業來看,一位運動部的公務人員,你到底是去懂古希臘的奧運的起源,還是去懂如何用大數據來分析國民的健康,你認為哪一個對國家整體的幫助會比較大?"},{"start":9644.808,"end":9663.453,"text":"對未來來講當然是大數據的分析國民的健康是比較重要的但是對於運動的源起它如何開始跟社會之間的互動了解古希臘時代的也需要有一點點了解但是在比重上面來講我認為對大數據的理解程度應該是未來的一個需求"},{"start":9664.053,"end":9691.179,"text":"所以不偏廢但是對未來影響重大其實我們應該更去注重其實我一直在看我們整個體育署升格為運動部以後組織架構的一個調整去反映了我們政府是想將體育事務從傳統的學校的體育跟競技的奪牌然後擴展到涵蓋整個運動產業運動的科技 國際外交跟全民的一個健康全方位的一個戰略"},{"start":9692.239,"end":9720.477,"text":"但是光是組織架構的一個硬體的升級本席一直都在這個地方一直講說這個其實是不夠的還是要有現代化治理能力的一些軟體才能發揮更大的一個預期的一個效能這個就是本席上次在這個地方考試院應該跟運動部來討論國考體育行政的科目的一個考科的一個調整因為整個運動部的核心公務員人力如果"},{"start":9721.584,"end":9739.817,"text":"被外界或者說還是一樣這個整個新憑據裝罪就久的話沒有辦法達到整個運動部體育署來做一個升格運動部這樣的一個我們預期的一個目標所以我請問考選部長就是說上次本期諮詢完以後考選部你們這裡應該有去跟運動部你們應該有去做討論過"},{"start":9743.852,"end":9761.27,"text":"有討論過 跟黃社長討論過是啊 我這裡剛好有一份你們去年11月10月幾天前後的會議結論就是說你們開會的意見就是說維持列考行政法 運動自然科學還有體育行政跟管理整併世界體育史"},{"start":9762.27,"end":9778.495,"text":"運動社會學就是世界體育史跟運動社會學變成一科這樣而已運動部曾去建議新增運動科技學運動科技學考選部說後續將事實去做一個研議看得出來"},{"start":9779.949,"end":9801.118,"text":"你們的想法裡面考選部跟用人機關在研商的時候你雖然去簡化了考科的一個共識但是對於納入具備未來性的運動科技我看你們還是持這個保留的一個態度並沒有保留跟委員報告因為它最主要是時程問題我們現在先處理的就是115那這個必須在116做"},{"start":9803.433,"end":9825.763,"text":"116因為牽涉到一定要動到科目他就要刪減考試規則新增考試規則新增新的科目裡面的命題大綱所以他需要一個作業時間他包含法制作業還有我們要相互的去做命題大綱甚至還包含命題他需要一個作業時間然後我們希望可以在116年1月前就續"},{"start":9826.503,"end":9855.012,"text":"所以這個沒問題因為我剛是非常用心在聆聽黃次長你的答詢黃次長剛你有去提到運動自然科學傳統上涵蓋的太多太多但是你也認為說這個是一個絕對是一個核心的專業可是沒有去你運動自然科學裡面你沒有辦法去完全去提供到你未來你像譬如說你維持實務運作體育行政人員更多面臨可能是如何去評估一個運動科技園區的"},{"start":9856.312,"end":9882.521,"text":"投資的一個效益啊或者說如何去制定一個電競賽事的法規的一個架構啊如何去利用這整個大數據的分析國民這個體適能的資料來制定更精準健康的一個政策這一些就像黃市長你剛提到的運動自然科學裡面沒有辦法去充足的提供所以還是我看部長你的見解是認為說不是不愛不是保留是明年"},{"start":9883.61,"end":9899.292,"text":"對 因為它那個如果牽涉到因為今天其實很多委員的槌尋那這都牽涉到如果對這個類科做比較大的變動它牽涉到還是剛剛說的三科目 真科目然後修訂命題大綱那一定要有增有減有增就要有減"},{"start":9900.59,"end":9926,"text":"或者的話會變成是說就這個單一類科考生的負荷過重其實它歸在文教行政裡面的直系好幾個如果其他人都只考四個專業科目就讓他考一個五科六科那個反而對他不利也就是以後他取用人才反而可能走其他的類科進來所以我們最主要是說要讓他維持在對考生還是要適當的負荷當然法制作業跟命題作業他一定需要"},{"start":9926.9,"end":9943.945,"text":"就是我們預計就是116年1月考科你們既然都已經討論了就是要往前走了其實國外也值得我們去做一個參考你如果去跟國際做比較的話你台灣現行的體育行政的一個考科的一個設計譬如說世界體育史 運動社會學我給大家介紹日本比較先進的國家"},{"start":9949.11,"end":9969.473,"text":"他們應該沒有在考這個目前在討論三井科目跟合併科目其實你們都是做一個微調考科要如何去符合用人機關的組織目標跟應對時代的一個變遷真的好好再想一下本席倒有一個想法就是說我們現在都是大行政 小法人"},{"start":9970.194,"end":9988.419,"text":"我覺得這一點我去看我們去比較我跟日本來做一個比較特別要來請教黃次長就是說我們要怎樣去整個體育行政的行政的公務人員一般的體育行政嘛一般的體育行政但是他們的核心的機關裡面體育廳裡面整個人一百十個人而已"},{"start":9990.061,"end":10001.754,"text":"180個人而已反觀我們台灣我們新的運動部那個員額的一個編列是302人差別在什麼地方呢日本除了體育廳以外剩下的都是執行的手腳的法人"},{"start":10002.625,"end":10024.637,"text":"那都是法人那也就是說日本體育它振興的中心JSC的原額裡面是多少人855人那也就是說是他們公務機關的八倍但問題是如果這個放在台灣的話我們又被批評了就是說在日本他們是政策是歸公務執行他們是法人他們是法人"},{"start":10025.037,"end":10050.311,"text":"那在台灣剛好很矛盾我們就很矛盾公務人員禁用仰賴國家考試還要受總原額法的一個限制所以理論上我們必須要靠行政法人去補強專業的一個人力公務人員課出來不用給他騙了顧料在那個行政體系裡面真的就是會僵化你在執行這確實是要一些法人可是我們又常常我們的社會又把它變成說這個地方是肥貓養老院這些單位也常常"},{"start":10050.991,"end":10066.637,"text":"就綁手綁腳實際上對社會感受不太到那所以呢台灣未來運動的整個發展到底是要走傳統的這種大行政或小法人還是要仿效國外靈活的小行政大法人這個確實公務機關讓公務機關在做決策的時候"},{"start":10071.019,"end":10080.942,"text":"我們都期待說它可以像企業一樣去執行面對整個市場的一個變遷現代化的一個行政體系裡面如果挑到更好的人"},{"start":10081.653,"end":10099.44,"text":"我認為是這樣 不然你光是升格光是升格 人也沒完你不覺得 市長 這很可笑嗎你說的確是這樣 沒有錯我們一直期待法人能夠獨立的去運作也就是運動部站在單純的督導"},{"start":10101.461,"end":10117.83,"text":"監督的角度我們去看它有沒有符合我們政策去做出具體的結果出來我們期待我們的法人的作為可以根據政策的方向做出獨立的判斷去更有效的去推動他們的業務現階段的編制國訓中心大概是150個人左右運科中心大概116個人"},{"start":10122.752,"end":10141.807,"text":"產業中心100個人持續隨著他們業務的推動擴張我們並不會限制他們絕對不可以擴編先把業務逐步的規劃出來做到一個程度之後那個時候要來增加人力我們再來做處理誠如剛剛所提到的產業中心今年預計聘的人為44個人"},{"start":10143.288,"end":10167.523,"text":"也就是我們逐步 因為業務不可能一步到位它要逐步的來一下子在業務沒有釐清 聘那麼多人進來反而是社會爭執的一個焦點因此我們採取比較穩定的 穩健的一個方式來進行先把基礎打好 建構我們該做的業務範圍之後逐步的來增加人力運科中心也好 國訓中心也好只要人力有需求 運動部絕對不會去擋他們"},{"start":10169.304,"end":10176.932,"text":"很好 希望可以做出一點成績我要問那個劉部長是皮克球你聽過嗎聽過有在爬嗎沒有你沒有在爬剛好我剛好在問那個問部長 處長你聽這個美國起源於美國這樣的一個皮克球我看過去這五年裡面"},{"start":10189.816,"end":10203.33,"text":"我看是爆炸性的這樣成長爆炸性的一個成長也就是說我看美國這樣的一個匹克球連續五年 三年他們成長最快速的運動項目2021年488120252278萬那亞洲的成長的一個速度也很快中國他們預計未來五年內要擁有超過1萬座球場跟1億"},{"start":10212.759,"end":10214.74,"text":"台灣現在也越來越多去年超過10萬"},{"start":10227.36,"end":10254.617,"text":"請次長繼續努力的地方就是說匹克球能夠迅速在世界各地爆紅門檻多然後全民化 高社交簡單的就是說簡單就可以上手小朋友到年紀大的都可以從在台灣目前是在一個成長期去年匹克杯 世界杯我們的選手三金三贏一統這樣的一個好成績也就是說台灣有潛力既然有潛力的話"},{"start":10255.305,"end":10257.907,"text":"它運動部的產業那台灣有頂尖的這種探尖這個複合材料的一個供應鏈還有網球拍 羽球拍就製造的重鎮那你全球匹克球是一個市場規模在2033年預計會達到44億美元台灣有機會把這個產業把它給帶上來"},{"start":10280.222,"end":10299.326,"text":"所以在這個推廣上市長是不是在加把勁沒問題的的確我們部長已經做下了政策上的決定皮克球將會是我們下一個階段在場地跟運動推廣上面是我們最重要的業務之一所以我們還是要已經做出決策你們會很具體的成績出來嗎是這個我們拭目以待好不好謝謝 請回謝謝好 謝謝主席辛苦了接下來有請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":10326.091,"end":10349.407,"text":"主席有請運動部的次長請運動部黃次長次長好委員你好辛苦了我們先看原住民人口在台灣只有佔2.5%在2024年代表台灣出賽奧運的原住民選手"},{"start":10350.342,"end":10372.6,"text":"就占了百分之二十一 总共有十三位这个比例差距真的很大 按照我们人口比例的然后在这一次的奥运共获得七面奖牌其中原住民就得了三面将近二分之一的一个奖牌"},{"start":10374.423,"end":10384.738,"text":"所以本席一再在運動部組織法制定的時候我也提案希望在運動部組織法"},{"start":10387.393,"end":10414.631,"text":"相關的這些條文裡面針對因為有些條文裡面特別有這個針對聘用人員的禁用所以應該要達到這個一定的比例包括編制內的公務人員也應該要達到一定的比例這個是無論是運動部還有包括全民運動署的組織法以及相關的這些行政法人的設置條例"},{"start":10415.572,"end":10438.453,"text":"本席都有提出了提出但是因為在整個協商的過審查的過程當中這個當時的召委這個跟本席還有很多其他委員溝通之後我們就透過立法院制定法例通過之後的附帶決議來去處理"},{"start":10441.249,"end":10453.638,"text":"其中包含了优先禁用即运动专业之援助民主运动部及其首署行政机关释出聘用人员总数之5%禁用援助民主"},{"start":10454.859,"end":10470.83,"text":"請問一下114年1月7號立法院通過之後運動部也成立了相關的附屬機關行政法人也陸續成立現在目前執行的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":10471.638,"end":10493.808,"text":"我們有遵守這樣子的附帶決議我們在公告的時候的確也有特別的去標示我們希望能夠聘任原住民的人才進到我們的中心進到我們的部門裡面來這個我們都有去公告至於有沒有那麼多人來應徵那不是我們能夠控制的好 這樣時間的關係會後你把你們的公告以及後來的一個實際"},{"start":10495.627,"end":10523.71,"text":"禁用的情形這個書面的提供可以嗎好的好接下來這個部分這個運動部組織法這裡面當然剛才有提過我就不再贅述我在針對剛才公務人員的部分有用原住民行政特考這個是本席一再的"},{"start":10525.378,"end":10545.909,"text":"這個在要求的終於在今年 你是這是我們人事處的處長處長 今年有提報 今年114年我們總共有提報五個缺不過只有分到三個只有貨分配三個所以我們就再把它提到115年的原住民特考"},{"start":10547.069,"end":10565.316,"text":"所以這個部分要今年,剛剛是去年,謝謝你們,114年有提報,也入企了。那115年要繼續的提報,而且不只是運動部,包括你們的所屬機關能夠提報,"},{"start":10569.011,"end":10595.167,"text":"那當然程序之道就送到人事行政總處嘛這個來來去整個會診而且而且要去協調地方政府地方他包含地方政府地方政府也可以所以這個部分也可以去協調地方政府的相關的機關也能夠提報而不是全部往這個"},{"start":10597.25,"end":10623.18,"text":"高補考那邊對不對可以分開比較多沿鄉的地方像屏東台東花蓮比較多沿鄉的地方他的縣市政府一樣可以提報協調他們去提報可以嗎可以吧協調可以吧因為教育他們的教育基本上是教育部"},{"start":10624.639,"end":10641.946,"text":"我是說教育體系啦 運動體系啦 我講錯了運動體系 運動部的話在地方政府教育局有那個跟運動有關的嘛 好不好所以他不是原住民行政單位啊我可以幫委員鼓勵他們來提報好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員接下來請盧憲一委員來做詢答"},{"start":10655.82,"end":10677.495,"text":"謝謝,有請考選部長請考選部,劉部長委員好部長好,剛才趙委都有提到一些考試的相關的類科當然我大概研究了一些各國的一些考試的科目我發現我們的正式太過僵化尤其是比如說行政法、世界體育史這些其實如果你是"},{"start":10678.656,"end":10704.553,"text":"本科系或者是相關科系的話應該在學校大概都有念過所以他們比較重視的比如在行政法這邊可能就比較重視領導統一在體育訓練運動領域這個部分的領導統一跟人力資源第二個如果是體育史的話他們比較著重在你各個體育的起源跟發展以後他們考的是比如說以後的發展然後如果怎麼去設計計畫跟如何實踐計畫"},{"start":10708.836,"end":10725.928,"text":"然後在運動自然科學這個部分很像少了解剖學因為我看看只有運動生理學心理學這個部分然後就心理學是有那行政管理這個部分少了什麼呢少了倫理的實踐也就是說我們可能現在常常"},{"start":10726.848,"end":10744.04,"text":"會發生一些性騷擾或者說在指定選手的時候可能會有一些順序上的瑕疵所以這些倫理上的實踐在實際層面上應該也可以納入一個考題"},{"start":10746.221,"end":10760.695,"text":"考生知道要有這方面的素養還有就是說你在運動設施裡面如果發生偶發事件、突發事件如何去處理這樣一個危機最後一個就是運動社會學的部分我們少了"},{"start":10762.737,"end":10775.353,"text":"剛才趙薇講的一個分析就是說當遇到這些數據的時候你要怎麼去產生你的一個邏輯的溝通跟我們這個社會大眾然後我們也少了所謂的"},{"start":10777.375,"end":10797.997,"text":"把這個東西品牌化或者是把這些事情商業化以後怎麼讓它變成是我們國際上矚目的一個所謂的我們台灣的價值因為如果說我們這個運動項目是我們台灣特殊有的我們應該把它變成是我們台灣的標籤所以這個部分在運動社會學上面就可以去呈現"},{"start":10798.758,"end":10826.877,"text":"所以因為我們的考試科目因為是研製以前所以常常是因為公務員的部分所以比較僵化所以如果說怎麼樣讓考試活潑你可以研用的人也會相對活潑然後後來我再看一下各國的一個目前的禁用公務員的部分我們看一下slide那美國、加拿大、英國、澳洲這些我剛看了以後當然我們如果就考試類科的話應該都是相關"},{"start":10828.138,"end":10847.737,"text":"類科畢業的然後可是我們像這次我們的剛考試資格裡面只要大學畢業就可以然後呢他們特別有要求一些工作經驗那除了英國沒有硬性要求以外其實其他國家都有那如何將這個工作經驗採集然後把專業科目跟跨領域的這個部分"},{"start":10848.197,"end":10872.478,"text":"怎麼樣來呈現在我們的認證方面我覺得這是應該考選部以後禁用我們體育人才的思考模式或者是未來的願景這方面你有著墨嗎跟委員報告這分成幾個問題先就最後一個問題如果是人才禁用的話其實這牽涉到我們台灣我們要求的是說"},{"start":10873.338,"end":10887.857,"text":"要依據考試法然後依據這個整個全序相關的規定在禁用出任人才這個跟其他國家可能不太一樣應該是說重視考試點是我們國家的從憲政體制下來一個非常獨特的地方"},{"start":10888.457,"end":10902.651,"text":"不過就考試本身當然可以在裡面來做一些調整不過這又分成幾個第一個是行政法因為這些所有職系都行政職系相通所以行政法是所有的這些職系在行政這裡面都必須具備的"},{"start":10903.812,"end":10916.881,"text":"但是其他大概委員所說的都是屬於大綱裡面可以來做調整這部分是不是容我們必須跟用能機關也就是跟運動部還有相關的學校的專家學者之間做一個討論好 謝謝部長最後我們請我們次長"},{"start":10923.123,"end":10938.751,"text":"委員你好剛才政經財委已經講到原住民的元額的問題我現在這邊只是要再特別強調就是說我們現在都在興建各個社區或是各個部落的集會所其實這樣子一個興建集會所大概原民會標準大概都在2700萬左右"},{"start":10940.852,"end":10963.096,"text":"那我是覺得很可惜就是說我們能不能因為這樣的一個契機能不能也把適時的將我們適合各年齡層的一個所謂的運動中心規劃進去不然你光有一個集會所在那裡他可能只有用一個禮拜六就是結婚或者是辦活動可是平常時間是閒置的這樣就會覺得相對可惜"},{"start":10963.656,"end":10981.59,"text":"所以我覺得運動部可以跟原民會去探討未來這個適合各年齡層的運動中心這樣的一個出行或者是說想法讓我們原鄉或偏鄉地區看我們都會去每一個地區都有運動中心的時候真的是望美止渴"},{"start":10982.421,"end":10994.104,"text":"可以理解 我們會跟園民會一起來討論未來這個場所的那個功能先從功能的設計上面來處理才有辦法未來在活動上面把它納進來好 謝謝市長 謝謝好 謝謝盧憲一委員的詢答接下來請羅明才羅明才 羅明才委員不在請岳元之委員做詢答"},{"start":11019.978,"end":11044.071,"text":"馬上請運動部次長請黃次長委員你好次長 李洋部長他有一個政策是希望能夠改革體育班對吧現在進度如何目前體育班的業務本身是在教育部目前我們跟他們密切的在討論如何的去做業務上的劃分跟轉型的過程"},{"start":11044.714,"end":11061.378,"text":"現在只是還在劃分業務是不是不是因為我是有看到李洋部長他是有自己宣誓說希望能夠改革體育班當然這個雖然業務在教育部但是因為他自己這樣宣誓可見他應該有所投入的確是所以你們現在大概預計進度是知道什麼時候"},{"start":11062.815,"end":11086.685,"text":"確實的進度還不知道我還不知道在跟教育部討論我只知道很密切我這邊是提醒當然體育班退場可能有他的考量就是說希望小朋友不要在很小的時候就被定型也要兼顧到學業但是有幾件事情我覺得配套也請運動部稍微留意一下第一個就是他的專業的運動教練何去何從"},{"start":11088.726,"end":11109.776,"text":"因為我有遇到一些教練其實他們大概都知道說體育班要退場可是因為現在沒有一個人說的準到底之後會怎麼規劃所以按照運動部的規劃的話那如果有這些專業教練他可能是有體育基金或者是其他的預算支應的這些教練那在體育班退場之後會有給他們安排嗎"},{"start":11110.342,"end":11136.1,"text":"目前不會那麼快的就直接退場它事實上是經過一個轉型的過程也就是說我們希望基層的體育班能夠從跟地方的俱樂部做結合我們希望這一些專業運動教練有機會融入到基層的運動發展而不是以訓練選手在基層那個地方所以是希望它跟運動部結合但是這個部分運動部會輔導嗎我們會跟教育部現在目前的措施是什麼"},{"start":11137.4,"end":11163.05,"text":"計劃 目前的計劃是什麼目前的計劃就是希望能夠逐步的來做轉型我知道 那你們現在是希望嘛那你們現在具體的作為是什麼具體作為因為還沒有就做出真正的確實的方案出來因為目前還持續的跟教育部在溝通當中那第一個就是我覺得那些專業的運動教練的安排那當然如果地方政府有裁員的話他可以安排到像國中高中嘛"},{"start":11163.85,"end":11185.941,"text":"這是可以啦但是其他如果沒有地方財源不足的地方政府或者是沒有那麼多缺的單位那是不是就要有一個妥善的規劃這是第一件事情第二件事情就是我不知道說運動部有沒有可能去跟一些單項協會去討論因為有一些運動它的賽季是非常長"},{"start":11187.028,"end":11209.855,"text":"那就會讓小朋友們 學生長時間都在比賽這個比賽就會陷入到可能有運動傷害或者是影響學習的過程這個我不知道應該不是運動部可以主導因為這都是屬於賽季的安排應該都是單項協會再次可不可以去了解一下或者是跟學校討論一下跟老師討論一下有沒有一些"},{"start":11210.615,"end":11238.036,"text":"比賽是因為它非常長長到真的會影響到學習的你們有做類似的統計嗎委員講的真的是問題的核心台灣的運動發展長期以來的確是因為沒有賽季的劃分所以教練在帶選手老師在帶學生運動員的時候都沒有那個週期化訓練的一個概念也是常常為了比賽一直在調整一直在調整它沒有讓身體有時間去做適當的修補"},{"start":11238.777,"end":11254.512,"text":"因此才累積的委員所看到的那些傷害因此我們現在是希望能夠跟協會跟高中體總 跟大專體總去把我們的台灣的賽季做某種程度的規劃也就是說理想的狀況一個賽季不要超過半年的時間"},{"start":11255.433,"end":11271.659,"text":"另外半年的時間他可以去做尤其是發展中的小孩子他可以去參與其他的運動對他身體的發展事實上是有幫助的我們不太希望太小的小孩子直接就focus就集中在某一個單向的訓練所以你們現在有發現這個問題那具體來說什麼時候會有一個做法出來了"},{"start":11275.92,"end":11293.187,"text":"這個東西必須要我們先跟協會裡面溝通看看也是要跟協會溝通沒有辦法立刻給委員立刻說我下個月做得好你反正你們有注意到這件事情那是不是盡快我覺得可以去了解一下還有上一次在教育委員會我有提一個建議就是針對你們針對村裡的運動認證應該要有獎勵機制當時全民運動署署長有承諾我不知道這個辦法出來沒有"},{"start":11300.31,"end":11319.457,"text":"有的話趕快給我一份好不好好的好不好這個我們也可以到地方去幫你們做宣傳嘛是對不對請那個里長們多多的加入嘛上次委員提到的痛點我們有聽到如果你有獎勵機制的話大家可以有一個良性循環嘛如果有的話辦法給我一份好不好好的我回去請我們救民署提供好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":11321.946,"end":11345.204,"text":"好 謝謝月圓之委員的詢答接下來請洪孟楷 洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷 洪孟楷委員不在那我們所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢我們詢答結束委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關尽數來送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":11346.565,"end":11360.638,"text":"那委員陳冠廷所提書面的質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關來做書面的答覆我們本次的會議我們就到此結束我們現在上會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"166810","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166810","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58702fc187613b38553011a53eea80ce16c8636dcd6d4218d921e6da3feca83ab35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"12:16:58 - 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一樣麻煩邀請我們的陳主委陳主委請委員長主委午安先跟您請教一下地方的事情我們現在新北市的基隆捷運去年經過行政院應該前年經過行政院核定地方政府去年有送基本設計的審議到交通部了"},{"start":29.321,"end":52.255,"text":"那交通部也在去年底的時候完成了審議那目前已經是轉到工程會了我不知道主委知道這件事情那我想在這邊請教一下後續我們工程會審議的可能相關的一些規劃可以讓我們的民眾知道如果有進到工程會工程會會安排基本設計審查的委員是 那麼就會這個"},{"start":55.617,"end":81.494,"text":"這個進行基本設計的審查那我們現在的做法就是說在基本設計審查到一段落之後會到地方去做現勘是那麼委員你會到地方去那麼到時候呢就會邀請地方關心的委員來參加那能不能大概抓一個時間當然我知道審查過程中審查不代表叫做核備嘛一定有審查的項目嘛那我們大概的流程大概會是怎麼樣那時間性可以讓大家知道一下嗎"},{"start":82.145,"end":111.036,"text":"他主要是審議他的基本設計的工法是否合理尤其是預算那單價是否合理那這些中整之後會作為一個結論那麼再回到交通部他去辦理那以過去的經驗來講的話那大概這個流程在我們中順利的話地方繳交的一些資料跟報告都是符合規範的話那我們工程會大概可以在過去的經驗大概多久以內的時間可以審訊"},{"start":112.717,"end":121.294,"text":"就看案大小 沒有禁訴來辦理那還是業務單位可以補充一下嗎禁訴處來說明一下"},{"start":125.303,"end":149.149,"text":"委員好 金融捷運這一個案子我們在簽程中找委員那通常我們找了委員以後呢到現場會有大概有半個一個月的時間然後請業務地方政府做修正然後大概地方政府如果快的話大概又會半個月會送達我們審議過後大概total的時間大概一個半月"},{"start":151.309,"end":174.665,"text":"好以上謝謝那就再麻煩我們的業務單位再多多的協助地方政府如果說有缺失的部分再麻煩多給一些指導以上謝謝那再跟主委請教一下有關採購法的部分那我在應該是去年的時候也有提到就是我們公家工程如果說得標的廠商那他可能有些財務的問題那其實我們現在的機制有一個機制叫做監管"},{"start":175.725,"end":204.364,"text":"這個監管的一個制度嘛對不對那就是確定下游的一些廠商在施作的時候那他是可以可能這個透過這個機制他們能夠繼續拿到錢然後繼續把工程來完成那之前遇到一個問題就是說得標的廠商他有訴訟的關係那被其他的債權人去追討然後有一個支付命令了那導致說支付命令的一個法律未接高於我們的監管契約那就變成說"},{"start":205.605,"end":233.84,"text":"下游的廠商如果他繼續做的話那他就拿不到錢因為我們發報單位一定是先這個支付命令優先的話錢就會先到這個債權人身上去那可能就會導致我們公共工程的一個延宕甚至導致於我們下報的廠商他拿不到他應付的款項那這樣子的部分之前好像我們同仁有提到說有預計要修法要來改善這個問題那相信大家也可能有正視到這個問題那可不可以說明一下目前的狀況"},{"start":235.235,"end":250.009,"text":"基本上這次修法有納入就是分包商跟次分包商在這種情形之下那麼他會強制是優先債權那我詳細情形請副主委來跟您說好 謝謝跟委員報告就是說現行當然有一個監督付款的機制"},{"start":250.549,"end":280.029,"text":"但監督護管的機制是在沒有法院的命令介入以前有效如果有法院的執行命令進來因為他優先嘛我們沒有優先權所以這次我們是仿照海珊瓦的規定就是說可能這些廠商對於這個公共工程的可以完成他有特別的付出所以他只要經過一個這個類似公證或認證然後讓機關核備那他將來這個債權會得到保障所以只要機關核備就可以不一定要送到工程會來"},{"start":280.889,"end":308.509,"text":"不用送到工程會但是它可能要經過認證或者是公證那機關它有一個等於是一個揭示的一個效果不會臨時找一個自在假在全進來所以原則上它是透過這樣的一個機制保障它可以領到工程會讓這工程繼續往下走好 那謝謝那這個部分就我們想說我們立法院也儘速來審議好了保障我們公共工程的品質速度還有廠商的權益那另外再請教一下剛剛很多人在討論這個三家廠商投票的事其實當然"},{"start":311.072,"end":328.947,"text":"我相信会有这样子的一个讨论一定是就诚如主委讲的现在的资讯比较公开透明的那我也认同这样的一个论述但是你一个调了之后它实际的效益我是觉得说它实际的效益或许没有那么的大但是我们要我也不是说反对而是说我们要"},{"start":329.768,"end":347.046,"text":"來做一些我們可能預想到它可能產生了一些後續的問題因為如果說我們現在如果說一家廠商一個標案三家廠商沒有達到一家廠商來標的話其實機關不太會擔心因為我們只要再開標一次就是說等標可能會有一點點的一些時間要去等待但既然有廠商來標的話原則上它下次也會來標這個問題比較大"},{"start":350.189,"end":364.205,"text":"那比較怕的是這個工程的一個工程的一個編列經費有沒有符合市場的一個標的那是一個問題那我現在要提到另外的問題是我們現在如果說只一家廠商就可以來開標的話那我們擔心的是"},{"start":365.836,"end":393.011,"text":"這個標案的一個資訊的揭露充不充分那我以這個大家最近討論的很多的國防部的這個案子來講這個裝潢公司來採購這個炸藥的一個案子你說程序合法嗎我相信程序一定合法那個同仁怎麼可能做違法的事情但是這件事情合不合理那也就是說我們要得到得到要投標的時候我們必須要拿到原廠的一個授權對不對以這個標案來講的話必須要拿到原廠的授權它有一些門檻"},{"start":394.051,"end":408.746,"text":"那當我這個標案有門檻的時候我的採購機關他有沒有足夠的時間讓所有有意願來投標的廠商都有時間去處理這些前置作業跟門檻我覺得這是我後續會去擔心的"},{"start":409.266,"end":439.046,"text":"那就變成說如果說我以後有一個標案的時候大家擔心的時候你會不會跟某一家廠商講好了你先去準備前置的作業然後等到我一開標等標期我也不給你太長我就直接絕標了我們會擔心會有這樣後續的逼併所以我知道在一些很大的一些工程比如說剛剛講的捷運的工程都會有一些公開閱覽的制度讓所有有意願的廠商都有機會知道說這個標案要標什麼那我要準備什麼東西等到開標的時候大家公平競爭一起來投標但是當我們把這三家廠商的"},{"start":441.288,"end":455.343,"text":"這個規定拿掉之後這一家的時候那我就會擔心我剛剛講這些弊病我們未來要怎麼樣子的去去防範無論是我們公開提前的公開閱讀或是等標期的一個合理化拉長這部分麻煩這個主委能不能說明一下"},{"start":456.183,"end":473.072,"text":"這也是我們修法裡面有的 比方說我們要求預算審完了之後 比方說專案政府總預算11月底要審訊那審完了之後 機關就必須在一定時間之內對外來說明 對外來公告那大家就知道你這個機關有這筆預算了"},{"start":475.573,"end":499.539,"text":"要什麼時候要來採購那採購的時候那當然現在都登記在政府電子採購網上面那麼都會知道嘛那等標期那麼也要求比較長所以這個配套措施呢都已經有考慮到資訊對 尤其是一些特殊的採購我覺得我們工程會一定要去給機關一些約束啦就是特殊的採購剛剛講的也需要廠商要有前置作業"},{"start":500.7,"end":518.062,"text":"多久的前置作業是合理的那你就要給多久然後再給一些比較保守的空間讓這些廠商都去有時間去準備那才有一個公平競爭的環境等標期很重要我們也曾經看過比方說大的案它是跟國外廠商合作來投標但是那個"},{"start":519.872,"end":544.569,"text":"計畫是英文當翻譯要花一點時間所以如果這個等標期很短可能有人事先就知道這個案他已經準備好了那你如果說等標期很短他光把那個整個設計翻譯成中文就時間就不夠所以這個等標期要夠長這個我們工程會會做適當的要求好那麻煩謝謝主委謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"166809","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166809","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b586dc517120c0d702d3011a53eea80ce16c8636dcd6d4218d921e6da3feca83ab35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:06:17 - 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主席請陳主委陳主委請"},{"start":13.686,"end":40.094,"text":"好委員長主委好 主委那政府採購法的核心效率還有防弊嘛那說白一點主要就是兩件事嘛一個就是希望事情可以做得更快一點那另外一個就是就是事情不要出事也就是防弊那效率很重要這一點我完全同意那今天我們要請教主委一個更現實還有關鍵的問題喔那我們現在這樣改是不是把更快然後放在出事怎麼辦的前面請主委說明"},{"start":40.794,"end":64.306,"text":"我小朋友就是三家改為一家是基於客觀事實的改變現在的網路現在的通訊現在的一些通路跟六十年前七十年前完全不一樣了因為時代已經過去了這個是就是資訊的公開跟以前完全不一樣以前在你要領標你要當事人去縣政府"},{"start":64.567,"end":74.849,"text":"那我還是要提醒主委那現在我們可以看到連小額採購都會出問題那也包括高機密的標案那也有被動手腳的情況下我們真的準備好要把這個競爭的門檻再往下放了嗎"},{"start":75.339,"end":101.271,"text":"我們如果不往前走就永遠在地踏步而且不是在地踏步是60年前的方法我們先來談這個市場的改動那這一次工業總會的潘理事長他也公開提醒如果取消三家的限制那他擔心的不是效率的問題而是劣幣組良幣那原因很簡單嘛他們的看法是那現在制度至少還有一個底線那不管怎麼樣還是有三家來做比較嘛那如果修法通過一個廠"},{"start":102.412,"end":128.828,"text":"一家廠商就可以來投標就可以公開招標決標那主委您認為市場怎麼解讀這樣這件事但是我也聽到很多採購機關都贊成我們的改我們的修改尤其是縣市政府基層的採購機關贊成的居多數那另外一方面是不是有一個訊號就表示那現在就算他算準沒有人來那就是直接就有一個就有這個機會拿到標案算準沒有人來就有機會調整預算"},{"start":130.447,"end":153.17,"text":"是那主委你認為這樣對誰最有吸引力如果說算準了沒有多少人來等著機關調整預算調整這個經費這個也是一個必端那主委你認為這樣調整之後我必須跟委員報告這個會增加政府的預算支出非常多因為你時間延了之後重新發包重新比方說計劃修正"},{"start":153.73,"end":167.846,"text":"那又來個物調 所以增加很多所以我們認為說我們就會聽各界的意見做適當的修正當然是也要大院委員都能夠認同才有可能修正那工程會你們有沒有去做評估說會吸引什麼樣的廠商"},{"start":170,"end":190.607,"text":"在做調整之後會不會就是反而變成吸引就是最趕最趕賭然後成本最低然後也最趕就是把這個風險轉嫁最快這種廠商他很少有機會一家去投標吧如果是一個工程能夠有意義做有獲利很多廠商都會去投所以您認為很多廠商都會去投因為他不會說不知道而不去投"},{"start":191.167,"end":218.173,"text":"是他一定知道所以不是過去說這個微標那我就直接問那您認為是有助於提升競爭力嗎當然有助於提升這個各方面的效率啦或者是決標找到好的廠商這個都是正面的而且我們參考的那主委這樣聽起來還是肯定的那你們有沒有具體還有清楚可以操作的嚴格審查的機制呢就是我們有一些配套措施啦"},{"start":218.613,"end":233.067,"text":"配套做事是要求呢這個預算通過之後就要對外說明嘛要公告嘛這是什麼樣的配套做事就是因為你們也有提到嘛因為現在歐美他們就是他們一直都是一家"},{"start":233.787,"end":256.055,"text":"對 就是一些採購協定也沒有這樣的規定那這個是完全是六七十年前的規定主委你有談到這已經六七十年然後也有提到因為這是根據WTO嘛就是世界貿易組織對 採購協定是沒有這樣的那我也看到美國的制度那他們現在的單一家的投標是高風險不是常態"},{"start":256.895,"end":283.917,"text":"那他單一投票他不是放寬他要特別的標記說有例外的狀況那機關也必須要書面說明為什麼只有一家那我們接下來會不會也要要求說也要有書面的說明必須要有市場調查的結果也要說明有沒有替代方案那包括那這些是文件嘛這些是說明嘛那他們也必須要出示文件那他們文件要包括說為什麼沒有辦法競爭那價格合不合理那風險如何被管控我們接下來會這樣子具體要求嗎"},{"start":285.904,"end":312.803,"text":"這個採購法裡面都有啦風險的評估等等那我們的採購方式包括低價標包括最有利標或者是限制性招標等等各種招標決標的方式都不一樣所以會被誤解說我們只是找特定的一家來就決給他不是啊每個標都要公開的啊公開的我沒有限制只能一家來是每個人都來"},{"start":313.744,"end":332.966,"text":"每個人都來存在誤解是為什麼因為近年來發生的事情大家也都很清楚像是有人利用小額的採購動手腳也有人把高機密的標案規格洩露出去那這些問題不是因為制度太嚴而是缺乏競爭然後還有外部的制衡所以制度特別容易被操作那我們要怎麼去達到這個外部的制衡"},{"start":333.426,"end":352.626,"text":"弊端当然跟机关有关跟采购机关有关所以我们这个采购法的修正是兼顾效率跟兼顾采购人员他的实务经验所以我们认为说一直批评说一家好像要图利谁一样这是完全是一个错误的解读"},{"start":353.747,"end":370.053,"text":"現在是沒有在批評誰只是我想向主委了解那現行制度下競爭門檻其實還沒有真正的降低那內控就已經管得那麼吃力那修法之後單一的單一家就可以決標那接下來我們內部控管能不能夠承受一定是符合資格的"},{"start":370.313,"end":391.53,"text":"是符合資格那在美國那他們有獨立檢查然後國會的委員也可以及時調閱資料那我們接下來也同樣可以做到嗎監辦監督機關這個採購機關上級就可以監督他工程會是主管機關也隨時可以去了解可以查核所以主計政風也可以會同來開標所以我們的機制是很嚴格"},{"start":391.69,"end":404.333,"text":"所以我們是可以做到像英國這樣子嗎他事後也要公告然後公開使用例外就是有例外的原因然後像包括最您提到就是國內外的就是國內的審查機關然後還有法院可以來做追究嗎"},{"start":405.797,"end":431.403,"text":"法院我是說他有一個審核的機制嗎因為他們也特別要求在單就是只有一個只有一個的情況之下他們都必須要出示文件也必須要有說明報告那當然就是如果說整個這個經公開招標之後就一家來那這個一家一定要符合採購器官他的條件比方說他是否符合那警署也說明說是什麼樣的什麼樣的條件"},{"start":433.758,"end":459.265,"text":"他的招標文件他的採購契約招標文件他一定是具有比方說他有多少資本額他有多少時機那他的底價是不是落在這個採購機關的這個底價之下這些都有一定的不是說一家機關因為我們現在是參考參考歐美那他們就是在在他們是也是一樣是公開競爭的那他們必須要技術上沒有辦法被替代然後還有"},{"start":460.885,"end":482.572,"text":"知識產權排他性他們才會使用單一家來去做我們這個招標方式很多種嘛我就說有的是用評選的有的是底價的有的是先評資格然後再來溢價的都有所以是不同的所以這個不是解讀說一家來任何一家我們都要決標給他並不是這樣子"},{"start":484.793,"end":500.112,"text":"因為剛才Asway我有提到嘛就是像我們有看到就是國防部最近的案子嘛像一個六億元的國防採購案得標的是一家室內裝修公司那國防部說他合法他在形式上是符合資格的那問題是這樣的結果是正常的嗎"},{"start":502.36,"end":523.375,"text":"機關他可以去設定他採購的內容他可以要求什麼樣的廠商能夠進來投標比如說剛才資本的有多少時機他曾經做過這個項目有多少時機那做這些要求之後避免這個沒有時機的進入他的這個採購"},{"start":525.464,"end":548.997,"text":"是因為政府的採購它有非常多像國防採購然後還有公共工程嘛然後鐵路還是捷運像這一類的那我們會不會來接下來來做分級化呢我們本來就有分級有具有採購因為像看到國防這個採購的案那我們看到這樣高度專業還有風險極高的採購案在絕標之前都沒有一個機制那到底我們有沒有一個機制來做審核"},{"start":552.9,"end":575.829,"text":"國防部他採購我剛剛講過按照他去決定採購區域所以才向主委了解我們到底是靠什麼來做把關他有主管機關也有工程會可以去查核是 目前他說形式上他認為是沒有違法所以今天就是要向主委了解如果我們把這個競爭拿掉之後我們面臨到的風險我們要怎麼去應對呢"},{"start":578.51,"end":600.071,"text":"這每一個都有風險三家也有風險你剛才舉國防部這個例子也是在現行的採購法之下發生的風險所以呢我們很多配套措施必須來讓這個一家能夠開標這個修正能夠降低風險這是也是委員所關心的啦那最後那在單一的投標的加嚴審還有他風險緊急的機制啊"},{"start":602.293,"end":624.955,"text":"那還沒有被制度化之前那可不可以請工程會明確的承諾我們不會就是冒然的來推動就是取消最低的競爭這個也只有在大院三讀通過之後我們才有可能實施才有可能實施我們希望在這之前就可以明確就是你們已經有制定說那接下來就只剩一家來做法律沒有修正就是為此現行的三家OK好謝謝主委"}]}},{"id":"166808","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166808","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58dd063c929bbfb1ae3011a53eea80ce16c8636dcd6d4218d921e6da3feca83ab35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"11:55:18 - 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其中項目已經有預留大概將來物條要留多少"},{"start":197.205,"end":221.777,"text":"已經在那邊等著物調了工程會現在是有一些基本的因應的做法但是我認為還是要更積極因為我們看到流標的建樹跟金額實在是我們對於國家未來整體的發展也深深的擔憂另外我們對於工程品質的缺失當然我們目前是採取祭典的一個機制"},{"start":222.737,"end":245.42,"text":"那本次工程會也預計有提出採購法101跟103條的這種修法那就針對違規的業者禁止投標的限制那但是公共工程的安全並不是在於違法的之後的一些禁止更重要的是事前的預防"},{"start":246.681,"end":265.583,"text":"如果說尤其是事前有發生問題但是卻屢屢沒有做一個完整改善的業者也應該給予相關的規範來督促他進行改善才能避免這種事故的一再的發生那公共工程的這種"},{"start":267.273,"end":291.79,"text":"缺失的記點機制我們來看歷年扣點的案件數以及該年度扣點案件的超過三件的一個業者這個主委你就來做一個參考另外我們扣點案件的這種平均扣點數也是逐年的增加2019年的時候是1.78點那2024年已經升到2.34點"},{"start":296.397,"end":314.759,"text":"那主委我們必須要來探討工程品質差和缺失它有扣點的這種懲罰性的違約金那以工程類來說它主要分成四個級距這四個級距主委也非常的清楚那我們現在要面對的問題就是說"},{"start":316.533,"end":342.227,"text":"工程會有做統計平均每個被查核到的違規案件中被扣點大概二至三分整體大概是2.34分的一個平均那被查到可能造成職安風險的這樣缺失的比例因為查核率大概是10%這還是過去我要求至少要10%以上主委這個10%會不會太少還是會再做調整"},{"start":345.246,"end":360.99,"text":"跟委員報告我們也思考這些公安職安的問題那我們有另外一個思考是希望在設計施工設計階段就來就把這些問題能夠納入我們希望說將來這個施工的團隊"},{"start":364.491,"end":389.9,"text":"那麼有比較詳細的施工途說就是人力規劃或者是一些必要的安全措施都能夠納入甚至整個施工的標準程序這些工程會都希望透過相關企業範本或施工規範來拘束採購端政府機關能夠在他的企業範本或者是施工的時候就對廠商做要求"},{"start":390.58,"end":410.86,"text":"那從這一部分來源頭來防渡這些公安的問題不只是從這些制度來處理相關的防範公安的問題主委我們現在更進一步來討論這種工程品質缺失的祭典機制就是說一整年下來依照金額的不同"},{"start":411.781,"end":428.535,"text":"那有缺失的大概是會被罰三千到兩萬四千元不等的這些罰款那以最高兩億元的工程目前是罰兩萬四千元主委認為這樣的金額兩億元的這樣的一個工程確實罰到"},{"start":435.447,"end":441.778,"text":"兩萬四千元你認為這樣的機制有辦法去促進公共工程的安全改善嗎我請那個處長來來 處長說明一下"},{"start":446.984,"end":469.956,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢那大金的罰的點數跟金額當然目前看起來是比較少那當然這個我們可以來研議看看要罰多少錢可以達到一些警示或嚇阻的一個方式我們的祭典制度跟這種罰款在內的管理機制"},{"start":470.976,"end":494.671,"text":"有沒有什麼可以改善你認為必須來做一個檢討你認為要做怎樣的檢討跟調整基本上對比較高風險像防墜落的這些我們當然目前查的是加重扣點那金額部分當然是依照企業來罰錢那企業金額的部分我們可以來嚴厲辦理以上"},{"start":495.988,"end":512.824,"text":"我是建議罰款金額的基礎必須要來做調整就是說每一點的懲罰性的違約金除了採購金額的急劇的調整這個基礎之外也要依照過往廠商違規的紀錄來建立一個調整的機制"},{"start":516.809,"end":526.41,"text":"另外就是懲罰性違約金依照該年度的違規狀況我們要來建立累進的機制來 諸葛你說明一下"},{"start":527.717,"end":551.692,"text":"我想這個主要是讓這個比較不好的廠商他經常違規或者是有公安問題的讓他更困難進入公共工程的市場那如果好的廠商重視的讓他比較容易得標公共工程所以這裡面的關於評選的方式或者是加分減分的方式那讓"},{"start":553.123,"end":573.811,"text":"投身公共工程的廠商他能夠自己有個考量他有缺失但是他做一個完整的改善罰這些錢他不在意的就是你的這個金額過少但是2億你如果罰了1000已經很高了但是不可能罰到那麼多"},{"start":576.547,"end":598.512,"text":"他的罰款不高所以他沒有 他不在意這些是在意他以後永續能不能繼續在公共工程裡面生存或者是他能不能出場要做說明 做補充我來補充就是說我目前這個查核它是一個基本的花線缺失所以給他划多少錢基本上回到合約或者是行政法"},{"start":599.252,"end":619.519,"text":"他這個缺失回到合約如果說他有造成其他損害的話並不是說只能划這個還是可以划他造成的損害啦所以他重點是回到合約那當然基本的這一個划的這個點數啊我們是可以來這個再重新來研議看看能不能提高重新的研議跟檢討主委因為時間的關係啊我必須說我們針對"},{"start":623.14,"end":648.413,"text":"公共採購及公共工程流標的這種情形的嚴重的確是對國家整體的發展跟進步造成衝擊這個必須請主委提出更有效的一個政策那相關的這種違規的缺失祭典的制度也必須來做檢討讓整個公共工程的品質能夠具體的一個保障以上好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166807","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166807","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b5888b636a9d743ea263011a53eea80ce16c8636dcd6d4218d99fb3dd3e97491ffa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:44:27 - 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主委我們現在邁入2026年那我想這個新的年度當然我們期待新年新年要有新的氣象但是因為我們今年的總預算到目前為止都還沒有審議那我想這個對於屏東的發展我們真的是憂心忡忡那尤其主委過去也很關心屏東的許多的一些重要的一些交通建設還有一些產業發展的一個問題那我想主委面對這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":41.372,"end":65.86,"text":"那當然我們依目前預算法第54條的規定我們原本的一些預算的支應上面能夠照比較去年的一個規模但是很多的新興計畫完全沒辦法推動那像是我們屏東的微小南溫還有高屏二塊這些都攸關屏東重要的交通發展跟觀光的一個發展那主委面對這樣的困境主委能不能說明一下"},{"start":68.812,"end":70.575,"text":"北回之巔是新興計畫高頻二塊"},{"start":75.462,"end":104.302,"text":"應該核定了吧對但是預算都綁在今年的預算裡面好那因為相關規定是這樣如果新興計劃當然按照預算法規定是我們行政計劃是不能執行但有一個例外如果是立法院同意的話立法院同意的話是可以執行所以如果說雖然115年度總預算還沒有審查完畢那但是新興計劃如果立法院同意那麼執行還是可以執行"},{"start":105.522,"end":109.014,"text":"主委 那依目前這樣的政治氛圍你認為這個國民黨跟民眾黨會放行嗎"},{"start":112.599,"end":137.942,"text":"不過就是總預算我們幾乎沒有很少說有整個年度115年結束了預算還沒有審查還沒有覆違的你以前這麼多年來所以我認為115年的總預算總是要解決的總是要解決的這個解決就是說到底要怎麼編列那麼是不是總預算先覆為審查"},{"start":138.843,"end":149.876,"text":"那副委審查再來討論哪些預算要調整那這個才是我們行政機關也希望大院能夠來支持的"},{"start":151.079,"end":168.97,"text":"主委我想最重要的一個邏輯這個建設不分藍綠那尤其這個預算卡關之後會影響到我們整個這個交通也好治水也好甚至很多社會福利社會住宅的一些公共設施那這部分我想對於百姓都是切身之痛那請教主委"},{"start":169.83,"end":185.61,"text":"我們目前我們工程會有沒有統計 針對我們的新建工程 公共工程有多少案件會因為這樣的總預算沒有通過造成影響 甚至這個未來有可能會面臨這個要再追加金額的一些狀況 我們有沒有做這樣的一個分析統計"},{"start":186.491,"end":203.593,"text":"比較具體的就是有一個新興計畫是編載經濟部四年一千萬那是補助地方政府就地方管河川的治水計畫四年一千億四年一千億這個完全是要補助地方的那這個新興計畫如果沒有執行的話我們馬上會遇到困難"},{"start":204.494,"end":222.985,"text":"就是說有的縣市政府他的治水他這個已經排隊在這邊要等著要補助的那麼有的已經可能是前年度已經就是說有些計劃他有相關預算但不夠的部分是希望透過這個4年1000億的錢"},{"start":227.641,"end":249.617,"text":"來補助那現在這些錢都沒有辦法用所以有可能有些預算已經執行到一半了有些計畫已經執行到一半了就是本來打算用這個錢來協助的那就變成沒辦法動那整體來講影響各縣市政府的縣管河川縣市管河川的治水是影響非常大"},{"start":251.662,"end":276.088,"text":"主委剛剛講到重點我想過去這個尤其我們這個屏東也好過去我們都很重視這個治水的一個問題所以不管是過去的八年八百億六零六百億我們主委剛剛講的我們有很多的分期第二期第三期第四期的計畫都已經在進行當中尤其我們人民汛期五月份汛期就來臨了我們都很擔心這樣一個政治的一個惡鬥會造成我們這個百姓的一個災難"},{"start":277.368,"end":292.287,"text":"所以我們還是在這邊呼籲我們今年度的這種預算要趕快來審議那切入今天的主題主委剛剛大家都在討論這個你們的採購法的修正草案那當然我們這次總共的增修訂的增刪的部分大概有52個條文"},{"start":293.689,"end":318.024,"text":"那最重要的就是刪除首次公開招標要有三家投標的一個限制未來只要一家就可以決標那當然這個就會有正反兩面的一個論調那主委面對這樣的狀況你們有沒有相關的一個防備措施能不能再說明一下我們已經在預告 那麼修法之前也徵詢各各工協會或各地方政府的意見"},{"start":319.64,"end":341.702,"text":"贊成的也有那不贊成的也有那如果以我這樣來了解贊成的居多啦贊成的居多比方說地方政府採購人員或者是比較小的營造商那麼贊成的居多那反對的也有反對的比較偏那個大型的企業啦那總是我們會做參考那麼將來"},{"start":343.283,"end":358.011,"text":"那透過行政院這個審議之後會報大院來一併審查那當然我們有些配套措施這個配套措施就是每個機關那預算通過之後要限期就要來公告那對外來說明那"},{"start":360.652,"end":382.467,"text":"等標期也要拉長那麼相關的評選等等都有配套措施那主要是說這個87年通過的採購法沿用以前幾十年前的這個規定那以防弊為主那這裡面呢這個資訊的透明化跟通路已經"},{"start":383.519,"end":401.268,"text":"差太多了我們現在是115年所有的政府採購都在電子採購網上面都公告了領標都不用本人去領投標也都不用公司派人去投標那公告的方式也都很清楚資訊這麼流通所以雖然我們把"},{"start":402.308,"end":418.412,"text":"三家才能夠開標改成一家但是這樣反而有助於這個更熱烈的參與我是判斷真正一家決標的情形不一定會增加反而會減少"},{"start":421.65,"end":449.058,"text":"主委那我看以我們釣魚的資料當然我們比較擔心是過去公共工程這個流標狀況非常的嚴重那像我們中央部門來講勞動部國防部這個都高達兩三成還有經濟部那我想這部分我們未來當然是期待這樣一個修法之後能夠能讓我們的這個投標或是這個招標的部分能夠更順利但是當然我們也是要求未來的公共工程的品質的兼顧的部分應該要強化"},{"start":450.498,"end":479.119,"text":"那我想去年我也特別有請教這個主委有關於這個土質廠的問題那果不然這兩三個月真的狀況非常的嚴重包含我們這個去年諮詢的時候土方的處理價格從三四倍的起漲到最近已經調漲到甚至到高達十五倍很恐怖的 主委那面對這個困境主委這邊有沒有什麼樣的進一步的一個處理的一個機制"},{"start":481.006,"end":497.079,"text":"當然土石方的管制是屬內政部的業務當然也是我政委的部分督導的那這裡牽涉到土地的分區使用的許可包括農業用地或山坡地等等那也包括這個"},{"start":498.94,"end":517.909,"text":"建造的申請等等是要跨部會的協商那我們最近也在討論我們希望整合各部會那麼來整理出一套有效去化的方法那麼不至於亂到但是要實務比較務實的來解決這個問題但畢竟這個是"},{"start":522.251,"end":548.148,"text":"銀件土石方他並不是比方說化工廠的廢棄物也不是硫酸什麼這些酸液的廢棄物那這些土石方事實上可以再利用的那到底用什麼方法來解決我想我們會整合各部會提出一個比較務實的方法那當然啦也需要各部會不要本移不要本位主義然後呢這個把這個問題就沒辦法解決"},{"start":550.236,"end":572.67,"text":"主委我想這個真的要列入一個很重要的一個課題尤其我們目前也接到很多的澄清案件包含很多的這個公共工程標不出去因為就是這個土方去化的問題但是這裡面我們呼籲這些業者 清印業者或者是處理業者那麼也不要這個隨便這個抵制拉抬"},{"start":574.128,"end":593.545,"text":"當然當然但是我們現在發現就是說上有政策下有對策有的就不給你賺公房也不給你賺有地方賺的地方都不給你賺另外就是說像這個建造的申請實照審查還有土方的區域基本上屬於地方政府應該負起的責任每個縣市政府"},{"start":594.065,"end":612.825,"text":"你至少要公辦的土質廠那有公辦的戰事廠公辦的企劃計劃每個縣市政府都要這樣處理那至於內政部他大概是管一個政策所以縣市政府才是重要的縣市政府你不能說你沒有設置土質廠這些土資 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謝謝接下來我們來介紹行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝公務預算處署長徐永毅財政部政務次長阮清華國庫署署長陳柏成負稅署副署長李志忠官務署副署長蘇淑珍國有財產署副署長郭曉榕"},{"start":1856.737,"end":1880.468,"text":"財政資訊中心副主任謝明峰國防部副部長許思簡海洋委員會政務副主任委員張忠龍好 等一下的專題報告我們會先請行政院主計總署還有國防部來做報告我們現在先請行政院主計總署陳主計長進行專題報告"},{"start":1890.943,"end":1917.308,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生今天很榮幸應邀列席對於115年度總預算至今尚未審查對國家安全和地方建設的影響提出報告之前要說明如下依預算法相關的一個規定總預算為一線完成審議時它經費動資的原則如下第一個依法定義務支出何時動資經常性經費和延續性經費"},{"start":1918.568,"end":1933.753,"text":"只得在上年度的執行數範圍內動資第三新興資本和新增計劃還有第一倍金第二倍金和栽准金這不得動資那以上開的一個不得動資我們經過會診之後計2992億元那包括新興計劃1017億元"},{"start":1942.135,"end":1970.196,"text":"经常性和原性系计划不得动之的部分呢1805亿元还有第一预备金和第二预备金还有灾准金总共170亿元那全数总预算为审议通过不得动之的项目对于国家安全影响如下第一个国防部的部分新型计划27亿元主要是办理战伤手术和急救医疗设备整备军事医疗投资计划等"},{"start":1971.604,"end":1991.845,"text":"所以将不利平时暂时救命和续命装备的一个更新经常性和延续性进化不得执行的部分725亿将影响后备战力的提升部队演训的一个任务建军备战及人才培育训练等"},{"start":1992.446,"end":2016.059,"text":"那二 海洋委員會的部分 新興計畫它是2.4它主要是在整建海巡老舊基層 停舍 開放老舊3-4GM的一個偵查系統 補強碼頭這些等等那如果沒有通過將影響海巡執勤的一個量能還有包括查緝緩毒的一個效能"},{"start":2016.519,"end":2040.975,"text":"那经常性和延续性支出超过预算的一个114年度的部分是2.4那如果没有通过没有预算115没通过将影响海巡同仁执行时的安全保障那另外115年中预算案中有多项地方政府受益事项因此新计划包括中央自社及地方政府受益的1000"},{"start":2042.456,"end":2057.944,"text":"一百三十億和地方補助款五百零七億總共六百三十七億將受到下面的一個影響第一個是直轄市和縣市財政均衡補助三百二十一億那這個部分新增的部分如果沒有分配這樣會影響"},{"start":2059.625,"end":2066.274,"text":"地方財務調度的一個能力第二個縣市管河川和排水整治的一個計畫總共145億那這個部分嚴重衝擊地方災害調適的一個量能和增加淹水的風險那第三 全國循環轉區試點"},{"start":2076.047,"end":2102.476,"text":"新材料循环产业园区新升起的设置计划60亿元影响大林浦1.1万的一个户的一个千村十城还有TPS行政院的一个计划将影响全国102万左右的一个通勤组的权益还有部件公共化拖曳设备14亿元那将帮助13个地方政府部件优化"},{"start":2103.777,"end":2114.148,"text":"49個公共托育設施影響我國整體公共托育的一個量能那台灣品牌賽事精選計畫8億元那這種賽事活動恐無法如期推動衝擊運動產業經濟的一個發展還有無人載具產業"},{"start":2124.519,"end":2147.657,"text":"發展的一個一個統籌型計畫7億元這個部分將會影響到中央地方運用無人機辦理警政水利農業等的一個相關的工作那八北回之巔的旗艦計畫5億元將會影響花蓮嘉義台南還有這些景觀和服務設施優化的一個推動還有第九高雄和屏東間的兩條寬速公路"},{"start":2150.899,"end":2175.29,"text":"4億元將延遲計劃用地取得和相關的一個進度再照歷史現場的3億元這個部分將造成場域內文化資產無法及時修復等影響另外11個新整建珠珠苗公立高中職學校校舍3億元的部分無法如期整建其中"},{"start":2176.37,"end":2200.564,"text":"祖祖廟地區的高中校舍影響教學活動重上總預算常委審議一通過將影響國防施政與國家安全和對地方公共建設的一個推動社會福利的措施造成影響希望大院能夠盡速審議必使各項福國利民的政策得以如期執行以上報告謝謝各位"},{"start":2202.638,"end":2203.959,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家早"},{"start":2220.885,"end":2249.277,"text":"今天應邀參加大院貴委員會進行115年度中央政府總預算案至今尚未審查對國家安全及地方建設的影響專案報告請說明如後國防是國家安全的基石沒有堅強的國防實力國家安全就會面臨挑戰國防建設要能持續推動關鍵在於預算的支持"},{"start":2250.456,"end":2271.903,"text":"國防預算不僅是資源規劃的分配,更是向國際社會傳遞自我防衛決心及向敵人展現嚇阻戰力的重要戰略訊號。若未能如期審查,除影響建軍備戰,更可能造成國家安全的隱患。"},{"start":2273.615,"end":2296.093,"text":"中共上週在台海周邊進行軍演,嚴重破壞印太地區和平穩定。加上共軍將具備武力犯台的能力,在敵情威脅嚴峻之際,時間已成為防衛作戰最昂貴且不可逆的資源。"},{"start":2297.284,"end":2314.415,"text":"每一天的預算延宕都在消耗寶貴的準備時間若能盡速審查預算確保資源穩定的挹注才能展現捍衛民主的決心並在動盪的印太局勢中站穩腳跟"},{"start":2317.272,"end":2333.404,"text":"15年國防部稅出預算便列5614億元較14年度增加875億元總預算案若位於大院本會期通過受影響預算780億元"},{"start":2338.939,"end":2367.703,"text":"如排除人員維持法律義務支出核實支應外將有21%的預算無法按原定期程執行難以在115年度內完成裝備籌貨、修護以及油料彈藥足額補充等主要受影響的層面及計劃有以下四點一、嚇阻力量的建置"},{"start":2369.028,"end":2395.782,"text":"近年中共威胁不断升高其由迅转眼、由严转战之可能性大幅提高因应急剧陡升的情势在防卫固守重层嚇阻军事战略指导下国军需快速筹建嚇阻战力遏制灰色地带袭扰若未获足额预算受影响的将有"},{"start":2397.089,"end":2425.586,"text":"遠程精準火力打擊系統也就是HIMARS魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統CDCMF-16機作戰支援夾艙即武器彈藥籌購案各位都知道這一次軍演這個夾艙立了大功還有幻象2000等七型戰機的零附件戰備存量需求等"},{"start":2429.071,"end":2446.722,"text":"二、不對稱戰力的建制面對中共日益擴大的多元軍事威懾國軍並多欲拒止任性防衛的作戰構想強化不對稱作戰的能力若未獲足額的預算受影響的包括標槍、飛彈、籌補"},{"start":2450.109,"end":2464.671,"text":"刺针、飞弹、抽捕及战术数据链战术数据链路及连战指管系统等415亿3、保护我们的战斗人员"},{"start":2466.589,"end":2489.284,"text":"為確保國軍在高強度衝突環境中提高人員作戰的持續力維持武器裝備的運作透過提升部隊訓練個人防護的裝備醫療救護設備及後勤支援補給等以鞏固部隊戰力若未獲足額預算受影響的包括戰鬥各裝F16型及後續的訓練"},{"start":2495.124,"end":2499.969,"text":"5.56公里步槍鋼芯彈推動14天擴編動員及軍事教育訓練等88億四 照顧官兵"},{"start":2508.464,"end":2533.955,"text":"军人是保家卫国的存在除了筹获先进武器装备同时积极完善官兵权益及优化服役的环境以凝聚团结向心若未获足额预算受影响的包括调增各级部队基本维持定额业务费阔户营级月增11700元廉级月增15000元"},{"start":2538.444,"end":2567.384,"text":"调高生育补助至每胎10万元及生活营舍修缮等43亿综上国军单位特性异于一般公务机关国防领域任何新启动的武器研发新购置的武器系统以及新搏剑的军事设施均归属新增计划未完成法定程序无法执行"},{"start":2568.71,"end":2590.891,"text":"國防事政具高度的實效性與技術和競爭性當敵情威脅不斷提升就必須運用新增的計畫引進新的科技並增加部隊的訓練、油料與維保等作業維持費的需求以強化建軍備戰的能力嚇阻敵人進犯的意圖"},{"start":2592.253,"end":2616.573,"text":"然受限於預算法規限制只能延誘上年度的框架影響裝備維保的量能削弱執管系統的韌性且無法對最新的敵情威脅與作戰環境作出因應賴總統於2026年新年談話表示沒有強韌的國防就不會有國家"},{"start":2617.779,"end":2631.299,"text":"面對中國嚴峻的軍事野心,台灣沒有時間等待,更沒有時間蹉跎。以及,台灣必須做最壞的打算,也要做最好的準備。台灣戰略縱深較短,"},{"start":2633.479,"end":2650.818,"text":"较难以以空间换取时间必须在时间上积极争取更早的预警更快的决策以及更周全的准备敌人不会等我们准备好才来进犯坚实的国防力量是国家安全的保障"},{"start":2652.037,"end":2672.206,"text":"敵情威脅嚴峻建軍備戰工作刻不容緩懇請大院盡速審查預算讓國防施政能在預算挹注下加速推動其心提升戰力守護國家安全以上報告敬請各位委員先進會與指教並鼎力協助謝謝"},{"start":2675.405,"end":2699.645,"text":"謝謝徐副部長的報告那關於財政部還有海委會的報告再請委員參閱書面報告那接下來開始詢答先做以下的宣告第一每位出席委員發言時間八分鐘必要時得延長兩分鐘每位列席委員發言時間五分鐘第二今日上午十點截止發言登記現在依登記順序請登記第一位的吳秉瑞委員質詢"},{"start":2716.69,"end":2746.002,"text":"主席麻煩請國防部徐副部長請徐副部長徐副部長早我剛剛聆聽了你的報告你說敵情威脅不斷提升然後我們必須台灣必須要嚇阻敵人進犯的意圖這邊的敵情跟敵人你是指誰報告現在主要威脅我們的是解放軍"},{"start":2747.267,"end":2772.923,"text":"就是中華人民共和國的中共的解放軍是不是好那為什麼會有一些我看到那個新聞報導還有媒體很多退將啊是從我們軍中退伍的這些將領常常敵我不分耶常常在替對岸講好話在替我們自己的國防在洩氣啊這個你有什麼看法"},{"start":2774.841,"end":2794.626,"text":"我想一日為國軍終生是應該就是要效忠國家這是毫無疑問的那我們之前也對於這個退降如果違反相關法令會對他們的退休分有所苛扣這個新規定出來以後退降 復錄的情況減少"},{"start":2795.916,"end":2824.358,"text":"不是曙光只有附路啦現在也有人在說可以在台灣裡面對方敵人在台灣裡面安排了有很多第五縱隊的協力者不一定講說他本身就第五縱隊他本身可能看了一些訊息什麼對自己沒有信心然後很容易被影響然後或是被利誘就變成協力者這個你們有沒有什麼在軍中如何讓我們的國軍同袍很清楚的了解我們的敵人是誰"},{"start":2826.089,"end":2847.514,"text":"有 這個我們政戰跟相關的單位現在非常認真的在制定各種計畫要跟我們的官兵宣導相關的知識以及訊息並且我們也頒佈各種各樣的保密措施強化我們的保密作為"},{"start":2848.567,"end":2862.117,"text":"我們2300萬多的同胞在台灣安身立命每一年花費了這麼多的國防支出其實我們 你縱觀啦 這些年來的總計我們的敵人就只有一個嘛你會認為菲律賓會侵犯我國嗎還是南韓會侵犯我國嗎 還是日本會侵犯我國美國會侵犯我國嗎"},{"start":2872.731,"end":2888.627,"text":"是不是我們真正的敵人其實歸納起來就只有一個就中華人民共和國對不對是他對我們有領土野心對我們各方面非常的不友好然後窮兵黷武圍台軍演等等結果"},{"start":2890.046,"end":2909.761,"text":"我覺得我們這個除了今天你講這個都很重要這個是有形的但是新防我覺得也很重要你同不同意非常同意那新防的部分如何加強現在中方對我們的認知戰沒有一天不再進行而且不只是針對我們國軍是針對我們全社會"},{"start":2913.43,"end":2939.19,"text":"所以我們首先應該要強化我們國軍自己的心防這個我們會如果所說我們陣戰部門有很多計畫另外我們也願意跟整個政府的各個部會一起配合那你說這幾天今年才2026年的第一個禮拜世界的集權國家倒台了好幾個最眼前的例子"},{"start":2940.239,"end":2964.084,"text":"伊朗先不講 因為他現在正在全面動亂我是認為最後他也會倒台那你看看這個委內瑞拉的狀況你有什麼樣的感覺中共不是一直宣傳說他的武器多精良啊他的抵達多好怎麼美國去了他們完全都沒發現美國總統還有美國的國務卿還有美國的國防部親自出來開記者會他們對方都不知道"},{"start":2965.214,"end":2977.821,"text":"委內瑞拉的總統一個多小時就從美國開始發動行動一個多小時就抓到美國的軍艦上了那中共不是很了不起嗎這個國家不是都是靠中共在撐腰嗎那為什麼會這樣"},{"start":2979.432,"end":2999.868,"text":"我相信美方裝備的精良程度跟委內瑞拉從俄羅斯以及中國這邊所獲得的武器的水準在這一次行動中展現無疑我要特別講一句就是委內瑞拉還不只是"},{"start":3001.519,"end":3029.645,"text":"它是哪一國武器的問題它最關鍵的是它的維修保障問題很大它平常的維修是不夠的那這一點對我們來講很重要這個裝備要不斷的維修要更新敵人在進步我們也必須要進步這是踏山之石可以攻錯了那同樣的台灣當然要一直精進可是現在預算沒省"},{"start":3031.049,"end":3057.366,"text":"採購武器等等計畫都延宕那這個責任我看到世界的媒體都講說台灣是不是沒有辦法堅決的表達出他抵抗侵略的決心把國內的這個政治上面的對抗外擴讓國際之間對整個台灣產生錯誤的印象這個我覺得我們國防部有必要清楚的說明喔要讓我們的友邦能夠清楚知道什麼原因造成延宕"},{"start":3058.598,"end":3082.731,"text":"不是台灣人不願意眷軍備戰我們當然知道最好的準備就是對我們自己的最好的武裝就是最心防然後堅強我對蔣介石先生很多行為民國初年的時候三四十年的時候在台灣的白色恐怖我不以為然但是他有一句話我是認同的物是敵之不來 政是無由以待之"},{"start":3084.156,"end":3098.243,"text":"如果我們是不去做這個建軍這些國防武器的採購跟準備那全世界如果看我們國防部有什麼樣子的這個準備要向全世界說明這樣的狀況我想我們"},{"start":3103.376,"end":3125.573,"text":"包括今天在大院這邊的詢答的內容我們也會適時的向外宣布在這一次的演習當中我們也很及時的向外發布我們的新聞稿說明我們應對的這個措施及時的措施那對於"},{"start":3126.674,"end":3155.071,"text":"預算部分我想我們也會適時的向全世界跟我們的社會說明國防部是很負責任的提出年度及特別預算因應敵情增加我們的戰力其實藍白立委他們所做的除了延宕國防採購之外他們還試圖把這個責任也要加一些在你們身上因為他們用立法違憲的方式通過一個法律說每一個"},{"start":3158.926,"end":3177.456,"text":"這個志願役的軍官薪水都要加3萬那這明明就是搶奪了行政權這違反中華民國憲法我現在先問一個問題請問2025年我們中華民國政府對於我們的國軍的這個心想是不是已經有增加了"},{"start":3179.605,"end":3199.922,"text":"增加的幅度是怎麼樣增加的比例是多少請你說明一下我也好 我是主席局局長我們在114年就是2025年4月的時候在部長的指導之下我們已經針對於戰鬥部隊加級志願役加級等五項的加級我們都已經有調整了那是在整體財政規劃前提下去做的規劃也得到行政院的認同調整的比例多少"},{"start":3200.622,"end":3228.433,"text":"調整的比例大概應該有大概接近200億左右增加200億做這些佳績大概有100多億是100多億做這些佳績所以118億很難因為每一個人所獲得的跟每一個軍種跟已經那個不是完全一致所以你很難在這邊詳細回答但是114年度我們中華民國政府對於我們的國軍事實上是有提升了一些待遇"},{"start":3229.694,"end":3247.228,"text":"人事經費方面就增加100多億這是你講的嘛對不對是好 那現在我請問你現在在野黨利用他國會多數 應用法律規定每一個志願役軍人要加3萬順便還跟你講說就是因為行政院不願意編這3萬的預算所以他不願意審查預算"},{"start":3248.952,"end":3277.508,"text":"他試圖還把責任掛在你身上所以我覺得你們也有義務要向我們的國軍做充分的說明其實購買國防武器照顧現在現役的軍人能夠保護軍人在戰場的時候這是很重要的事情以這個理由如果今天是3萬 我也不知道原因為什麼是3萬 他也從來沒有講過為什麼不是5萬 為什麼不是10萬為什麼不是2萬 為什麼不是1萬他用一個法律就規定每個人要加3萬"},{"start":3279.141,"end":3290.235,"text":"然後就跟你講說你這三萬你不給他加進去我的國家預算就不給你審查還把這個責任要推到你國軍的身上你這樣細想之下你不會覺得很可怕嗎"},{"start":3291.796,"end":3310.277,"text":"我不殺柏惟 柏惟因我而死結果你們最後跟你講說你國防武器的延宕採購就是因為你們預算你們的薪水沒有增加所以我們就不給你錢啦我們就不省預算啦整個中華民國的這個全部都被延宕啦那就是因為國軍沒有加這三萬塊沒有在我們的命令下因為我們要討好你們"},{"start":3311.55,"end":3337.165,"text":"我們在野黨的立委要討好國軍要討好這些自由軍官所以你們這三份我硬要加給你加不到就讓中華民國整體的預算來墊倍聽起來是這樣的意思這樣你感受如何不知道副部長你的感受如何我這樣的論述不知道你的感受如何可不可以跟我們回答一下報委員我們希望"},{"start":3338.479,"end":3356.468,"text":"大院能夠儘速把我們的預算排入審查議程我們願意在委員會裡面跟委員詳細的報告跟討論如果委員覺得有什麼需要調修的地方我們都願意一起來討論我們希望走正常的預算程序讓國家預算趕快通過"},{"start":3357.669,"end":3370.533,"text":"這才是正道 另外我再提醒你喔無論是誰都要遵守中華民國憲法這個如果可以用這樣的方式那我可不可以立個法要求台積電每一個員工都要給我加給我每一個人月薪給我加一百萬不能用這樣的方式處理國家的行政權"},{"start":3377.085,"end":3404.796,"text":"人事跟預算經費這是行政權的範圍如果有一天國防部長或是說整個行政院都不能決定軍人的軍人應該的薪水是多少這是可以討論的過程然後不是你們決定要別人來替你們決定那這樣行政權就沒有存在的必要啊這明明就是這麼違憲的事實啊他都敢幹還是依照中華民國憲法宣誓要就任的這個立法委員"},{"start":3406.394,"end":3410.075,"text":"要敢這樣子幹把中華民國憲法視為無誤所以大家加油為了中華民國 為了大家為了我們的國家大家加油 謝謝謝謝吳委員因為剛剛議事人員已經有宣讀過上次的會議議事錄請問各位委員對於上次的議事錄有沒有異議沒有 好 謝謝接下來我們請議事錄確定接下來我們請內事保委員"},{"start":3445.134,"end":3450.706,"text":"好 謝謝主席我先講一句話如愛其養 無愛其理"},{"start":3457.27,"end":3484.438,"text":"今天我們民主國家立法院存在價值就是看緊人民荷包如果今天立法院三讀通過的案子行政部門都不遵守立法院可以廢掉了加上現在行政權加上替他維持的這個幾個五個大法官居然可以下行下解人數不夠還要說去把他釋憲"},{"start":3486.107,"end":3506.382,"text":"就是行政權加司法權 掏空整個立法權啦所以這個預算卡在這裡只要承諾說我們省預算 一定把軍人加薪馬上省 他也不敢承諾啊 也不要承諾啊煩得早晚走去跑啦 解鈴還是吸鈴人啊公開呼籲賴清德"},{"start":3507.503,"end":3526.829,"text":"可以停止或者收緊你的鬥性吧讓我們的憲政回到正常常軌來運作好 首先我們請海巡署的副主委兼不是 海外會的副主委兼海巡署的署長張副主委好 我們請張副主委主席會員好"},{"start":3531.114,"end":3536.097,"text":"你們出那個大皮肉啊 這兩天人家炮聲濃濃啊今天我看到你在會前 你啊 這個挺身而出啊看起來一副啊 要替這個管媽來扛子彈的樣子喔你可以看喔 你可以看喔12月3日 中共的解放軍正在進行2025的正義使命演習時光是什麼"},{"start":3557.388,"end":3580.266,"text":"還有主委管媽 plus你 plus底下的海巡署的八個分署長通通去吃飯啦然後留守的是副署長 副官所以怎麼樣 就大官吃飯 小官小兵上戰場我們都知道 這個演習是同作戰啦"},{"start":3581.067,"end":3599.09,"text":"他這樣子這個發了幾十發的這種火箭彈都逼近我們的領海隨時可以打台灣的我們除了國安部的陸海空以外海軍的前第一就是海巡啊你身為海巡署的署長"},{"start":3601.506,"end":3614.356,"text":"你們怎麼會讓這個事情發生而且你現在還對外承認還對外跟媒體講衣服扛起來這樣子說你建議 你決定是你的決定 你替我媽決定說繼續吃飯 是你決定的嗎是你建議的嗎"},{"start":3621.396,"end":3647.266,"text":"這邊跟委員報告我這邊特別聲明的就是快點 時間短一點我今天特別聲明的是我們依據當天的整個狀況在12月30號的時候他們兩波次的射擊結束以後在當天的6點鐘所有的海警船跟軍艦都已經離開我們的限制水域所以本人在晚上的9點半就跟主委建議那會議可以照樣舉行"},{"start":3648.286,"end":3665.972,"text":"那在隔天的早上5點半我們要特別評估一下海域狀況那海域狀況逐漸舒緩所有的船都往外開了這邊跟委員報告海巡署從成立到現在我們有11次從110年開始有總共有7次的應對軍隊經驗所以我們是非常有經驗有專業的一個團隊不是 難道他不會最後一天你的意思就是說那個時候結束了啦"},{"start":3676.016,"end":3677.518,"text":"這邊跟委員說我們所有的運作機制並沒有因為停止啊"},{"start":3696.345,"end":3701.99,"text":"我們現在的戰爭並不是你們主觀都在吃飯啦什麼叫停職你們主觀地線地線的人都是副官副主觀跟那個阿兵哥在那裡啊你們大頭頭的在那裡吃飯給人家觀感非常不好來 我再跟你講一句話因為今天今天你不是管媽啦我也不要把你罵太兇啦"},{"start":3720.19,"end":3736.71,"text":"這個副主委啊 沒通啦當時候歇江村的時候 八八崩災的時候他就一個人 他跟他的義務吃飯就被轟到下台今天來講的話 全是正在打仗耶會死人的耶"},{"start":3738.371,"end":3746.634,"text":"他的海警人進來你說已經出去了再回來這個時候上面都是副主管在那裡吃飯有這麼重要嗎延期有這麼困難嗎這個東西一句話而已好我再問你具體的這個錢誰出的"},{"start":3755.868,"end":3778.24,"text":"跟務委員報告我這邊要特別聲明很清楚他是一個專業的團隊他有專業判斷所以我們應該尊重專業然後讓專業判斷如果今天沒有專業的判斷那我們現在的運作機制不就一塌糊塗了嗎所以政府有政府的一定一致的專業的判斷跟判斷機制你回答問題是錢誰出的啦"},{"start":3779.025,"end":3802.038,"text":"跟委員報告錢是由主委的特制費所有的規定所有的使用規範都是符合政府的規範錢總共花了多少錢7萬多好不好這個你走以前我再講一句話你好好聽啦你不用回答啦很悲哀啦你居然在這裡還大聲在defense"},{"start":3807.173,"end":3834.572,"text":"所以啊 這個啊 前線打仗不如吃飯重要啦吃飯比較重要 吃飯不可以改啦打仗做於打仗啦 沒有關係重要主觀的key person 八個副署長都在署長 你是海巡署的署長 也在吃飯 都在吃飯啦這個東西 嚇死 嚇盡了這個丟了海巡署的臉 真的是我們的第一線是這樣 麻煩你請回吧我們請外交部的這個副部長"},{"start":3836.874,"end":3840.263,"text":"我這邊可不可以說一下你下來 你下來不要耽誤時間不要耽誤時間來 請徐副部長請徐副部長"},{"start":3849.192,"end":3866.236,"text":"副部長我們查了一下其實你的專業你要講國防也可以啦反正那個政治系的包山包海嘛可是看你的資歷我們叫check rank對不對兩年的外交部政策五年的國安會副秘書長再過來國安會諮詢委員資歷是完整的但是你國防"},{"start":3873.052,"end":3886.119,"text":"你的國防的精力當然就是在國安會裡面設立一些啦這個也不能說你怎麼樣可是我們看到其實你最想去的是駐美代表不是嗎一度傳言你要去當駐美代表啊對不對 因為賴清德幾次沒辦法過去美國他就想要說換你去看能不能過去美國結果發現你去也過不了美國所以這個才改派國防部副部長"},{"start":3902.79,"end":3908.493,"text":"這個我就請問你了來這裡講實話喔來立法院講實話喔外交部的副部長跟駐美大使你喜歡哪一個只要能夠替中華民國台灣工作我都願意哪一個工作你比較加薪救手啦任何工作都要在工作上學習"},{"start":3930.217,"end":3957.199,"text":"學習的名字 學習這麼大國防部的副部長以前都是軍人出身的啦報告 報告委員國防部副部長是文人副部長是啦 但是過去的副部長也都是有軍方涉獵很多的啦你的軍方涉獵最多是跟你講說在國安會的時候有啦齁但是大家都了解其實那種門訪啦齁大家都了解大家都了解 其實"},{"start":3958.784,"end":3985.147,"text":"你是去不了駐美代表才到國防部副部長國防部副部長老實講位子不比駐美代表低啦但是以你外交部的外交的一個長才你應該去駐美代表只是搞不定而已啦我們來看對於美國跑去委任抓馬杜洛我們政府的態度是什麼"},{"start":3987.752,"end":4015.948,"text":"我們這種態度是什麼這個跟我們國家的利益比較沒有之間二樓社區打烏克蘭 我們就講話了啊我們就挺烏克蘭 譴責侵略請問這是不是侵略這是不是侵略 我問你是不是侵略是不是侵略如果有相關就是要強化我們自己應對突發狀況的準備是不是侵略嘛 就問你是不是侵略嘛"},{"start":4017.354,"end":4023.63,"text":"俄羅斯進去烏克蘭他還是要保護他的子民啊旁邊烏東的地方都講俄羅斯語啊"},{"start":4025.077,"end":4052.147,"text":"它是為了國家安全啊它怕這個NATO北約不斷的通過俄羅斯它是這樣講啊它出兵烏克蘭我們政府第一時間跳出來說這個侵略行為譴責你要不要譴責一下美國侵略委員會為了自身的私有利益安一個罪名不管這個罪名怎麼樣你怎麼可以到別的國家去抓人呢如果要這樣子用同樣的mindset"},{"start":4054.626,"end":4074.218,"text":"這個就是現在變成銅鑼主義了 門鑼主義的這個叫 Donald Trump 銅鑼主義中美美洲變成是美國的勢力範圍門鑼主義重要的核心思想就是美洲是美洲人的美洲同樣啊 大陸一直講啊"},{"start":4076.475,"end":4095.947,"text":"在海這裡 中國大陸 台灣加台灣都是中國人的事情他自己來處理同樣的 mindset 他給你抓人喔你會不會擔心這個啊我們要強化我們自己引發突發狀況的能力你們準備好了 萬一他們要有所謂的斬首行動國防部準備好了沒有這跟你的關係有關係的根據我們突發狀況應對的規則我們有相關的準備有信心"},{"start":4106.414,"end":4129.822,"text":"我們有相關的準備有沒有信心啊 準備有沒有信心啊準備永遠要精進有沒有信心說絕對不會被他們得逞我們要做好最好的準備所以你不敢講咧還講得這麼保守我都做球給你這麼大力做球給你你要表現啊 國防部副部長要表現說絕對沒有問題放心只要我到副部長一天絕對不會讓他得逞所以你敢不敢講可以嗎 你講完我就下去"},{"start":4137.057,"end":4153.008,"text":"浩委員 根據我們自己的規定我們要做好最好的準備所以我希望大會能夠盡快審查我們的預算所以沒信心就對了好 謝謝賴委員國防預算通過之後他們會更有信心好 來 接下來我們請郭國文委員謝謝主席 我先請主席長請陳主席長"},{"start":4175.12,"end":4190.407,"text":"委員好主席長好主席長本席有觀察到115年我們主計總數所看到的經濟所預估的經濟成長的數字是3.54%比較起央行跟台晶園來說都是比較偏高"},{"start":4191.227,"end":4208.653,"text":"當然是每一個預測都有它的這個落差或者它的相對的精準度那主計總數這樣估計的3.54預計的人均的這個GDP會突破4萬美元但是GDP是個構成的要件當中一個其中很重要是政府的支出是"},{"start":4209.774,"end":4224.566,"text":"而且政府的支出當中會影響到這個GDP的數字之外影響到間接影響的內需的這個消費本期是好奇就是說你在估計這個3.54的這個成長率的時候到底有沒有把這個預算的變數把它納入進去"},{"start":4227.488,"end":4251.19,"text":"第一個呢 今年的預算沒有省今年度的預算沒有省今年度的預算當中總共有3000億接下來國防預算1.25兆這個8年的部分每年大概1500億加起來的部分就大約4500億直接的影響跟間接的影響GDP的部分到底有沒有納入要不要重新修正"},{"start":4252.414,"end":4273.201,"text":"現在我跟委員報告一下就是說我們當然當初在考量的時候這是裡面它裡面有一些是屬於政府投資的部分或者資本財的部分那這個會影響的部分它大概100億它會影響0.05個百分比如果是消費性的它大概會影響0.03個百分比這樣子"},{"start":4275.922,"end":4279.328,"text":"如果是100億的話有0.05對如果假設我們現在4500億的話影響的數字就相當大了對換算起來數字上0.05"},{"start":4291.182,"end":4311.568,"text":"1000億就等於0.5%對啊 那1000億等於0.5%你這樣子的話0.5%你4500億那影響很大那你是不是要再重新評估一下因為我們公共支出的一個縮減特別預算的沒有審查如果這兩項的因素再加總下去的話應該不是3.54了吧"},{"start":4314.7,"end":4330.027,"text":"对 所以这个部分对GDP是有影响那因为它影响大部分会分经济会和设备会那我们要看整个情形那下修大概是什么程度你能不能重新评估一次因为它评估下修的一个因素非常的多"},{"start":4330.367,"end":4358.898,"text":"对 至少四大因素当中写得很清楚政府支出就是一个很重要的关键你刚刚在讲有影响所以说3.5是你原来预估当中并没有把这个变数放进去你就应该有重估的这个可能不是吗就我觉得本席就是提醒你回去重估也让国人知道因为你不省预算你没有通过这一个特别预算你会影响到GDP的成长你明年未必能够超过4万的这一个国民所得 对不对"},{"start":4359.338,"end":4382.741,"text":"我们一半是三个月重估一次对 三个月重估一次你现在就要重估了不要等三个月我看现在的态势很可能没有过的比例比较大不然你做个民调不然现场问一下也可以再跟委员报告我们大概今年这样113年我们初估是7.37对 没关系你过去预估的我就不管你对 我要再跟你说这个程序"},{"start":4383.041,"end":4400.515,"text":"你过去估计也有体棉标准可是这个很清楚会对GDP有影响你要跟国人讲清楚对 我在讨论检讨114年度的我会再做修正同时也修正115年度你刚刚说1000亿就0.5%这起码有4000亿就至少2%"},{"start":4405.419,"end":4420.064,"text":"这2%的影响你估计不过是3.54而已就影响到这个公共支出影响这么大这么大的冲击你等会拦腰斩半当然要重新评估怎么可以等到三个月以后好 接下来本席再问你一下"},{"start":4421.624,"end":4436.949,"text":"另外一個部分因為財法法的部分我們不附屬可是第一版的財法法的時候在113年12月20號的時候就三讀通過那時候就影響到4165億下放給地方整整一年你一直在強調說要重新規劃事權"},{"start":4440.35,"end":4456.775,"text":"财权跟事权是互相影响事权结顶财权财权也会影响到事权早期的影响最多的是1999年的这个精神的部分费神的部分所造成的一个冲击面可是现在已经一年了主席长我们应该去真实的面对这个问题"},{"start":4457.855,"end":4478.302,"text":"撲鼠另外一回事那還有一個變數可是這一種形成定局的這個事權也許需要修法藍白不一定會過可是我們版本要出來我們要把問題攤出來面對現在真實的狀況第一個 哪些法需要修事權的歸屬需要修第二個 不需要修要修哪些規則"},{"start":4480.063,"end":4506.817,"text":"让中央跟地方的这分工可以明确化不要造成日后的一个争议这个应该把它具体的拟出来这个主委长我要跟委员报告事实上我们在中央总预算里面其实对地方的一个补助里面不要谈到不用修士权的部分它就有一个一般性的补助这都原来是属于地方硬办的事情"},{"start":4507.377,"end":4524.025,"text":"就是2501億然後再來就是一個就是計畫型的補助那我們在114年度是講將近2400億總預算的部分那這兩個部分因為我們不修條文的話再只能就針對"},{"start":4525.205,"end":4548.762,"text":"如果说4165亿要给地方那我们只能针对对原来地方硬办的事项我们必须要做删减所以我们就会把原来一般性补助有一些是属于地方硬办的事项回归给地方去办理 是这样子了解 所以说只有在规则上来做调整目前都还没有需要修法"},{"start":4549.022,"end":4569.191,"text":"还没有修到法这个部分就是这样子那再来就是有关原来省政府的部分其实它总共要拿走15%包括省政府就是4165再加上那个2501加起来总共要拿走15%就包含省政府的部分那原来省政府的业务"},{"start":4569.711,"end":4583.583,"text":"把你需要修改的部分會後給本席一份因為我還要問國防部就放在後面了海委會 好不好謝謝 請回謝謝你整理一份給本席接下來我請那個副部長徐副部長還有包括我們還有一位副主委張總統副主委兩位請請徐副部長 張副主委"},{"start":4591.118,"end":4611.775,"text":"副部長 你在國防報告書當中你有寫到這書面報告說將有高達780億人約有21%的國防預算未能約到原來的騎乘的部分這會不會造成影響到裝備彈藥跟不對稱的戰力的建構跟官兵訓練的動員之外這實質的影響之外會不會造成跟美方之間一個信諾的一個毀約"},{"start":4613.454,"end":4642.122,"text":"鮑委員會 我前面就講過國防預算其實也是一個向國際社會表達我們自我防衛決心的一個重要的政治訊號是 你看2025年美國的這個國防安全戰略當中就指出台灣是通往第二島鏈的直接通道而且在第一島鏈當中扮演戰略阻斷的一個角色另外美國也不會單獨承擔第一島鏈的一個防衛任務也簡單的講過去被保護的對象轉為成戰略阻斷的一環特別是日本"},{"start":4642.662,"end":4657.81,"text":"台灣跟菲律賓嘛 對不對如果是這樣的情況底下我們一直延宕這些預算會造成國防跟海巡戰力會出現時間的落差會不會造成這一種戰略履約能力的一個這一個失去信用 信心"},{"start":4658.669,"end":4682.722,"text":"的確有這個可能性因為這裡面不只牽涉到是美國還有所有的有盟國家到時候甚至包括歐洲國家對我們這個台海和平穩定的支持如果是這樣子的話應該把這個如果有具體有約定有違約的話法律上的責任或政治上的一個承諾的嚴重性加以凸顯副部長你請回我接下來請海委會的張副主委"},{"start":4688.615,"end":4707.448,"text":"主席委員好張副我剛剛就講到嘛從第一島鏈的部分台灣跟日本還有菲律賓嘛那過往我們在2016年的時候台日的海洋事務的這個合作對話的時候在20就有提到要簽署彼此的這一個海難搜索的救助的這個MOU"},{"start":4708.909,"end":4734.776,"text":"就我理解的部分一直到等到2024年的時候才有實際的行動在台日海巡在日本的千葉縣外面來做一個海外海的演練那這個部分目前為止第七屆的會議去年沒有召開今年還在磋商當中有沒有可能繼續強化台日海巡之間的合作來應對這個灰色作戰這是第一個"},{"start":4735.796,"end":4764.809,"text":"海巡是我们第二海军第二个有没有可能从双边到多边因为现在的部分是台日之间有那个日飞之间有台飞之间没有台飞之间有台飞之间也有海难的部分就是各自双边但是没有多边有没有可能扩到多边那个付诸的求救教育您我先回答委员第一个问题那有关台制部分在我们签约以后对海难搜救跟救助一直都是在进行"},{"start":4765.149,"end":4781.473,"text":"一直在進行那有一些這個演練的部分這邊因為市社機敏所以不適合在這邊適合在跟委員報告早日新聞都已經披露了你還在施設新秘有關實際的部分另外在台北部分我們本來就有合作的架構以時說現在三"},{"start":4785.535,"end":4802.148,"text":"雙邊變成多邊的可能性有沒有可能在今年第七屆的會議當中來做深入的討論這是我們的議題之一跟委員報告議題之一因為跟委員報告就是說你的議題之一就是可能雙邊變成多邊也就是說本來是兩國會變成三國我就要問這個問題謝謝謝謝郭委員接下來我們請李彥秀委員"},{"start":4820.41,"end":4822.793,"text":"謝謝主席我可不可以請主席長請陳主席長"},{"start":4829.656,"end":4856.543,"text":"委員好 主席長早安在上一次的質詢當中我才跟您特別請教您是專業的事務官無論在過去的歷練非常完整在主計的部分在編列預算的部分你是最有經驗你也非常清楚針對預算法第54條包括修法的過程對於現在行政立法的僵局也好"},{"start":4856.903,"end":4875.206,"text":"但是在總預算的部分其實都有法條可以處理無論是對於延續性新增的預算或者是延續性的新增預算或新增的計劃如果在今年年底沒有審完我們有什麼方式方法可以解套"},{"start":4876.087,"end":4905.399,"text":"其實都有相關的法言依據針對預算法第54條我上面寫得非常清楚但是我非常遺憾的就是說我從看到你們的報告到現在為止我覺得我都不知道主計長還有我們主計處的同仁你們看到的法規是不是跟我看到的每一本不一樣我們預算法在全國的法規資料庫裡面的預算法寫得清清楚楚無論是延續性的預算"},{"start":4906.724,"end":4931.641,"text":"可以动之或者是新增的预算有什么解套的方法第54条的解套方法你们都不在今天的报告里面提我要讲的就是说法律的适用解释不是像自助餐一样你们想要解释你们挑出来解释你们没有去看到整个预算法过去我们修正的过程是怎么样去解决如果行政立法有僵局的时候为了避免"},{"start":4932.461,"end":4941.402,"text":"我們整個預算的實施的推動我們有什麼樣解套的方式所以這個就是我要在上一次質詢當中我提醒組計長的"},{"start":4943.578,"end":4972.199,"text":"答案無論是針對延續性的預算可以直接動之新增的預算或者是延續性的預算新增的部分新增的計劃我們怎麼去處理其實都有解套的方法但是我也非常感謝主席長在今天我們也看到報告你們有把我上次提出來的到底有哪些項目是緊急需要的你也盤點出來但是主席長你有沒有去掌握"},{"start":4973.656,"end":4994.312,"text":"從上次總預算送出來到今天為止我們所有部會針對於這些項目你認為有緊急需要要去溝通的你有沒有掌握到他們有沒有到委員各辦公室各政黨辦公室或各委員會委員的辦公室去做過溝通你有沒有掌握這一點"},{"start":4995.097,"end":5021.567,"text":"因为这个各部会有各部会他们去处理所以不关你的事情不是这个部分我们只是说协助通知他或者是协助他主席讲你盘点你认为非常重要一定是他们告诉你哪些重要的那你自己一路从公务员最基层走上来你觉得跟各委员会沟通跟各政党沟通这些紧急需要重不重要重要是重要"},{"start":5022.188,"end":5032.864,"text":"如果到目前為止沒有一個官員針對於你們送到主計長這邊送到行政院這邊告訴大家這些是緊急重要的預算你們緊急需求需要"},{"start":5035.322,"end":5057.207,"text":"我覺得你們在喊緊急需要就是喊假的主席長 我要跟你講你過去也從議會出來在地方出來你非常知道哪些緊急需要透過大家溝通有共識需要不是只有喊話總統在今年元旦喊話行政立法大家要將心比心"},{"start":5059.085,"end":5085.636,"text":"我們沒有看到一個官員來去做更多的溝通這樣對嗎解決僵局有些是政治的僵局但是有一些是你有行政手段可以處理的如果不是上一次我質詢你們趕快去挑出來我看今天所有的僵局可能都還留在喊話的階段我覺得要對話要實質去做溝通才有辦法去解決政治的部分政治處理"},{"start":5086.596,"end":5115.764,"text":"但是實質可以處理的手段我們就要讓社會大眾知道說有一些事實上是可以動之的不會請不起手語老師不會廁所沒有衛生紙甚至是有一些緊急需要動之的我們趕快請相關部會自己去跟各委員會的委員做說明這都是應該有的標準的SOP程序我要接下來講跟委員再報告一下那是有順序的"},{"start":5118.445,"end":5132.994,"text":"總預算從今年八九月就已經送到立法院哪些是緊急需要現在行政立法的矛盾跟僵局這個是政治來去做處理我們竟沒有看到"},{"start":5135.575,"end":5162.601,"text":"院長跟各政黨之間大家有什麼樣在針對預算上溝通都只有看到是在媒體上喊話這些我不浪費我的時間去講所以我也先說我們就是逐步不要逐步 你們如果真的急的話就不要逐步趕快去做處理主席長 因為我今天時間有限因為我還有另外一題要問主席長 過去你從台南市政府上來所以其實過去的僵局"},{"start":5163.801,"end":5192.52,"text":"無論是在民國一百年的時候台南實踐市合併後來也是因為行政地方議會府會之間的關係後來到六月才三讀通過當時也是本來當時的僵局後來也是因為賴市長跟議員道歉之後解決僵局所以一百年六月預算才通過然後在一百其實當時也有解套的方式預算還是有解套的方式"},{"start":5193.42,"end":5211.666,"text":"6月才通過預算還是可以照樣執行就是說不是新增預算我要講的是地址法他預算還沒編就限料執行了所以他一定是按照舊的預算是嗎舊的預算還是可以動延續性的預算還是可以動他是縣市合併12月25才開始編預算主席長每一次的期限是不一樣的"},{"start":5219.429,"end":5245.738,"text":"主席長 我要跟你講的不管一不一樣 地制法對於預算處理的方式事實上就法規來看 我覺得比中央的更嚴格因為我們中央有寫立法院同意之後就不在此限嘛 特別挑出來地制法是預算審完之後才能動之所以在程度上動之預算看起來其實我們比地方的更鬆只要立法院同意有丟出來那這個只限新興和新增計畫喔"},{"start":5248.139,"end":5262.75,"text":"對嘛那但是延續性經常經常性人事費用這樣都可以動之好所以主席長我覺得解決方式我覺得作為行政官員我覺得政治問題解決"},{"start":5264.011,"end":5278.801,"text":"但是我看不到在這段時間對於預算你們覺得緊急需求你們的努力我覺得還有再加強的空間我時間先暫停主席我要請財政部財政部阮市長上來因為我要問一下GMP的議題謝謝主席長我們請阮市長沒有 阮市長 財政部委員好"},{"start":5294.419,"end":5314.238,"text":"我要問一下最低稅賦制的議題因為現在符合國際稅制的潮流我們都在推GMT最低稅賦制現在你們去年我在媒體上看到說你們今年是必要推而且要回溯這件事情現在是不是還是仍舊狀況到底是現在執行情形到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":5315.058,"end":5337.153,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子已經報到行政院在核定當中但是因為目前的政經的狀況還不是很明確所以這一部分可能還要那是不是一定要回溯到底情況到底怎麼樣因為114年對於這36家上市上櫃跨國際的企業這些都是我們"},{"start":5338.754,"end":5357.699,"text":"繳稅的大戶對我們來說稅收影響非常高當然但是相對的是不是要回溯對他們也有很大的影響因為這些都是上市上歸公司這個都還要再研議了那是不是會回溯因為現在已經關帳的狀況現在到底是什麼樣的情形到目前還沒有確定"},{"start":5358.482,"end":5381.25,"text":"都還不清楚不知道這件事情其實我同意很多事情很多新的政策要想清楚再做因為包括美國現在退出最低的稅賦制度所以這個對於當然最低稅賦制度對於我們的企業也好還有對於國家整個政策其實是有正面的幫助"},{"start":5381.63,"end":5396.283,"text":"但是美國的退出最低稅賦制退出CMP事實上對於未來國際的稅改呈現稅片化的影響還是有的所以同時我覺得我們如果要推必須要跟產業界這36家37家國際的跨國企業做完整的溝通"},{"start":5400.367,"end":5422.839,"text":"但是同時我覺得必須要有其他的配套措施譬如說新加坡他有一些退稅的制度或者是他有其他的獎勵措施來去引導他們再投資其他的產業就是說我的獎勵我補稅也好或者我退稅也好有其他的獎勵措施來去引導他們"},{"start":5424.62,"end":5442.717,"text":"我們有沒有什麼相關的配套措施可以來去做處理這一部分都在通盤在研議當中通盤研議當中因為現在美國他已經退出這個制度將來會怎麼樣去發展我們要密切關注其他國家的一些做法我們做適度的做一個調整"},{"start":5444.53,"end":5472.709,"text":"次長因為這36家跨國企業上市上位公司在去年114年這個就是財報已經關帳了那你如果要回溯這個影響衝擊會非常大特別是跨國企業這個稅負的穩定制是非常重要的這個後續你不講清楚說明白對他們衝擊是什麼對影響到所有股東的權益我們會納入考量然後後面要有什麼樣的配套措施我覺得我們要更清楚的"},{"start":5473.229,"end":5485.781,"text":"去跟這36家跨國企業去做一些溝通來保持穩定性也不會損及所有股東的權益好 了解我們會配合辦理謝謝謝謝李委員接下來我們請羅明采委員"},{"start":5502.827,"end":5529.878,"text":"主席各位 初列席官員大家好主席可不可以請陳淑芝主記長以及國防部徐副部長請陳主記長 徐副部長各位委員好那請問115年度這個已經開始了今天是幾月幾號元月五號元月五號"},{"start":5530.657,"end":5535.34,"text":"那115年時間到總預算怎麼還沒過呢這個部分我要拜託也要懇請貴院能夠來進行審查好啊 你拜託那我也拜託你啊現在軍人的部分是國家非常重要的一個基石那今年的軍人那個軍人加薪你有沒有編入總預算裡面"},{"start":5559.072,"end":5582.943,"text":"這個部分因為人事總署認為這個部分是整個影響到整個一個所謂的公務人員整個薪資的一個結構所以這個部分第二個那本身這個部分的他裁員也必須要籌措因為他將近300億然後第三個就是說這個部分就是沒有"},{"start":5583.443,"end":5611.402,"text":"一般他跟那個憲法裡面的規定就是說行政立法要先協商協商之後再來編列然後稠妥裁員再來編列這個部分是有違所以這個部分我們申請釋憲當中我們等釋憲結果我們就來辦理不是現在立法院裡面有哪一個委員反對軍人夾刑你把名字給我或你直接講出來"},{"start":5614.265,"end":5636.469,"text":"軍人加薪是都OK但是你不能說我那個加薪的制度它整個是很複雜而且它整個在整個一個職者的一個制度上面它也很複雜所以它本身的加薪的制度以人事總處來看的話它各有各種的責任繁重的程度所以加薪的程度也是要不一樣"},{"start":5636.969,"end":5655.059,"text":"所以而不是說我一致性的加一個額度這樣子對整個一個薪資的結構是破壞的然後對於所有的公務人員它也是不公平的所以這個部分就是要考慮的一個重點所以很複雜結果去年搞了一整年你們也沒對案所以我再請教一個才化法複不複雜"},{"start":5663.622,"end":5673.245,"text":"財化法也複雜搞了20幾年到現在也沒方案出來或者我們已經過了我們有新的方案出來了我們過了你們不實施方案委員我們新的方案有出來為什麼感覺在你的這個嘴巴講出來都覺得很複雜那我問你一個問題你現在要國防預算"},{"start":5690.083,"end":5703.391,"text":"特別條例要增加1.25兆請問複不複雜這個部分因為它本身是條例的部分有一部分是又涉及到機密這是不是請國防部來回答國防部國防部本席一直對於軍人的照顧福利的部分我特別特別的為他們爭取"},{"start":5719.875,"end":5748.904,"text":"你知道現在的所有國防的這些軍人要招募容易不容易請回答報告我們有很多強化招募的措施是 我們現在的員額應該是要多少全部的軍人先講 秘密就不要講不然等一下被你扣帽子你可以講你就講 不要講就不要講"},{"start":5750.632,"end":5774.339,"text":"請問我們軍人大概全國有多少軍人報告委員 這個限員數是這個還是機敏秘密 OK好 請問軍人的薪水會不會過低"},{"start":5779.002,"end":5782.784,"text":"對不起 您說軍人薪水怎麼樣會不會過低是秘密就不要講了 沒關係不然等一下被扣帽子可是你可能會發現我一整天問下來全部都是秘密"},{"start":5796.838,"end":5814.266,"text":"報告委員我是竹崎局局長請說軍人的薪資待遇您剛剛問的問題是不是會不會過低的問題是這部分感謝委員關切因為我們國軍也是整體公務人員的一環所以我們不管薪資待遇相關的薪資結構都必須跟"},{"start":5815.206,"end":5832.751,"text":"軍工教的一致性的來做一個整體的規劃所以我覺得目前的薪資待遇在行政院整理規劃下目前我們都是依相關規定來辦理好 那請國防部是現在整個經濟的環境物價飆漲其實薪資遠遠趕不上物價飆漲的比率"},{"start":5842.901,"end":5858.058,"text":"所以你們發現當一個雞腿便當70塊漲到140的時候是漲快一倍 接近一倍那我請問國防部軍人的薪水有沒有漲漲的比例調幅是多少調幅嗎 調幅"},{"start":5862.746,"end":5878.739,"text":"這一段向委員報告去年軍人的薪資就有整體的調升依照行政院的指導提高多少去年是4%4%你知道剛剛本席所講的物價的漲幅已經漲了80% 90%你調高4%對軍人有沒有幫助"},{"start":5887.287,"end":5899.077,"text":"包委員有關軍人的待遇部分從105年到現在有加薪的事實整個加薪的一個比例加起來是14%14%那你從105年到現在你知不知道"},{"start":5905.799,"end":5916.987,"text":"一个肉丸几块涨到几块足迹涨幅可能比较清楚物价的飙升讲给他听30条到5030条50的话涨20块他的涨幅这样算起来比例是多少就是将近60以上"},{"start":5932.76,"end":5961.258,"text":"漲了60幾%結果軍人的調薪只有10幾%他講得好開心喔其實這是相對的剝奪感你知道我們現在都在講全立法院老農今天要增加對小朋友對嬰兒的照顧要國家要支持要增加那為什麼軍人我們明明已經通過了"},{"start":5963.172,"end":5975.038,"text":"軍人的薪資要增加為什麼就不編呢好 國防部主席長先不要講國防部如果薪資都不調漲這樣會不會影響到"},{"start":5978.601,"end":6001.356,"text":"国军的军力其实今年以来我们已经调了很多加级的部分所以实际上并不是完全没有调的所以调了以后第一点第二点呢这个军人也是整体国家政府人员的一部分要调也要配合行政院整体的一个政策不是这一个相对的剥夺感嘛"},{"start":6003.496,"end":6030.718,"text":"美國講一句話你馬上就編1.25兆我們在立法院大力為軍人來支持講了半天也不過這個九牛一毛而已你們還摳死摳著不放包委員我們沒有不加但是要配合整個政府的政策一起來加好 那我問你一下政策要快 因為現在"},{"start":6031.338,"end":6051.672,"text":"每天都在過便當都在吃蚵仔麵線都在吃奶粉也在泡你的時間要趕得上啊你看國防部這裡寫說115年度中央政府總預算案至今尚未審查對國家安全及地方建設的影響有沒有影響報告有影響沒有 你打開第一頁第一個 無"},{"start":6060.138,"end":6084.787,"text":"國防與國防安全最後一個寫無那個無是指機密性是無機密性這是我們新的精準機密的辦法所以這個都是無機密性的無機密性那你有機密性的才有問題有機密性的我剛問來全部都是機密那個人員編制的確是機密是機密是機密"},{"start":6086.633,"end":6116.033,"text":"好 那是機密我們就要保護縣緣編制是機 縣緣編制是機密好 是機密的話我們就遵照你的意思是機密但是你還是跟我們要很多多數的立委站在一起我們一起為軍人加薪來努力好不好我們當然願意替軍人但是要配合整體政府的政策來 接著請阮清華 阮次長很重要喔好 請阮次長阮長您上來喔股市就上三萬點了"},{"start":6118.018,"end":6135.896,"text":"你不信你上去看看卵次長這個是三萬點三萬點已經OK了本席在這裡喊了好幾年了從一萬點到兩萬點到三萬點穩穩的站穩了三萬點會不會"},{"start":6141.707,"end":6162.285,"text":"股市很難預估但是目前的就是我們就是管理AI也好或者是高速運算也好等等這些因為我們是站在對的一方所以我們的產業的發展其實未來是滿好的但是現在市場都說政府不要讓它漲太多不要超過三萬點這個是真的嗎"},{"start":6165.443,"end":6184.131,"text":"今天已經超過3萬點了對 你們在押所以聽說你們都開始偷賣台積電你有沒有在賣國安基金的台積電國安基金的我們不能賣你都不會賣嗎我們退場前我們都不賣 沒有賣退場前都沒有賣什麼時候退場退場就要看委員會來決議"},{"start":6185.771,"end":6212.586,"text":"你不會突然明天說我這個禮拜就要退場你東西全部賣完了就要看委員會怎麼做決議了決議退場 我跟委員報告我們退場也不會說一天兩天就賣掉了我們要看市場的狀況我想三萬點是一個很重要的關卡我們希望經濟繼續成長大家拚經濟 全民一起共同來努力也不要打壓"},{"start":6213.666,"end":6230.758,"text":"股票才剛剛漲 你們就一直在打壓不大好啦而且你們八大行庫也偷偷一直在壓盤讓它自由的發展 好不好我們是尊重市場機制 不會壓啦謝謝羅委員 謝謝接下來我們請中央嘉賓委員"},{"start":6245.325,"end":6264.686,"text":"主席 在場委員先進列席的政府經濟發展官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生因為今天的主題比較集中先請我們陳主席長然後依序是阮清華次長海委會的張副主委以及國防部的徐副部長來 先請陳主席長另外三位可以準備委員好"},{"start":6267.028,"end":6286.24,"text":"主席長好我們看到沒有一線期審完預算之後再重申一遍會有什麼受到影響我們往下一頁看是不是我們有分新興計畫跟增列額度如果沒有審議今年的預算沒有經過立法院審議新興計畫一毛都不能動對不對"},{"start":6287.501,"end":6316.213,"text":"那增列的部分原來如果是列一千萬增列兩百萬一千兩百萬只能用一千萬的部分是增列部分用不到好那我們接下來請教財政部次長來我們來看財政部的東西來財政部長你看看其他兩位次長也先上來好了我們節省時間財政部的新興計劃當中促餐的部分包括要做交通設宅長照公托因為新興計劃不能辦財政部明年的促進促餐"},{"start":6316.773,"end":6345.672,"text":"可不可以擴大到交通色彩跟長照公托對 就是說超過去年的執行數了都不能做不是 新興計畫是都不能做因為這是新興計畫你們的增列額度是什麼是養老給戶如果預算沒有審過我們公教人員的養老給戶不夠的部分領得到嗎這些因為它是法定義務支出所以這個養老給戶沒有審過一樣可以領還是要付還是要付 要怎麼付"},{"start":6346.252,"end":6374.527,"text":"借錢來付那只好這樣子我們會統籌去好 那麼當然財務也管國產署國產署當中你看我們登革熱在南部是一個很嚴重的公共傳染疾病所以公有財產非公用使用的國產署管對不對那登革熱你炒要不要減啊那你沒有這筆新增的額度萬一今年度登革熱來那怎麼辦雜草長了登革熱流行怎麼辦那就沒辦法用"},{"start":6375.083,"end":6399.696,"text":"那這個新興計畫被佔用的國產這是新興計畫喔這個就不是法定支出喔那這個你們就不能做了嗎對 就超過去年的執行書的那部分都不能用所以照這樣說藍白不省預算什麼人會開心佔用國產的人開心啊因為財政部沒法清查是這樣嗎藍白在幫助那些非法佔用國產的人民嗎是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":6401.677,"end":6423.013,"text":"所以我們希望我們統一算盡量能夠真正的人民他們會在意什麼民眾會在意統一發票獎金啦去年統一發票獎金被刪了對不對後來不夠發嘛後來你們是用追加這個是屬於增列的部分今年我們要增列喔如果沒有審過我們統一發票獎金是不是一樣會不夠"},{"start":6423.921,"end":6442.132,"text":"跟委員報告因為統一發票這個給獎的獎金現在已改為法定義務支出已經改為法定義務支出了所以不用再領不到所以它不會受影響不會受影響 好那接下來退稅退稅要由國稅局來付手續費嘛是那你們手續費沒有編那是不是就退不到稅了"},{"start":6443.913,"end":6463.192,"text":"對對 哇 大家聽得好如果退稅的手續費我們預算沒有審過沒有得編人民恐怕退不到稅這很嚴重 往下看超過去年的執行書來 我們再往海巡署謝謝陳副卵次長來 海巡來 海委會其實我們看到有一筆很大的錢這是屬於什麼"},{"start":6464.919,"end":6480.915,"text":"這個海洋環境治理 污染防治潔淨海洋計畫變得一億多是副主委那如果預算沒有審過 我們海洋生態保育會不會開天窗會受影響會受影響 那目前的情況好不好 會不會被監察院糾正"},{"start":6482.782,"end":6501.936,"text":"還是我們關心的是國人有一個捷徑的環境可以留給下一代還會怎麼辦如果預算沒有省了少了這一億多我們怎麼去執行我們這一個部分執行就會受到影響來 比這個也同樣嚴重的往下看海巡人員的人身保障不足你們在增加什麼保險嘛"},{"start":6503.317,"end":6518.348,"text":"我們看到最近的中共的軍演我們海巡弟兄也很英勇是不是開著艦艇跟他正面的逼他退對不對是這些人員的保險安全保障夠嗎有沒有給他足夠的保險因為我們今年有增編了2226"},{"start":6520.589,"end":6544.906,"text":"所以怎麼辦 會受到影響啊有些人口口聲聲說關心國家的安全立法院卻不給我們又要馬兒好 又不給馬兒吃草我們的人身安全保障不夠怎麼要求我們軍職的幹部為國來保障呢 是不是這樣還有一個很嚴重的聽說你們的無人機的量能構置OK但是有沒有訓練 要不要訓練"},{"start":6546.124,"end":6562.529,"text":"要我們的訓練預算是不是都是屬於新增的是是 好啦 無人機買了你沒有訓練經費我們無人機能操作嗎各位報告 我們現在無人機的訓練就是要怎樣 自己土法煉鋼我們無人機訓練不需要花錢嗎需要花錢買了裝備 買了槍 不給你子彈不給你打靶 你會打嗎來 我們請國防部"},{"start":6571.827,"end":6592.392,"text":"來 我們次長 部長我們看一下其實國軍弟兄在陳平的時候我們看到不久前還傳出了外島的部隊很多弟兄被詐騙對不對國防部有沒有做一些加強是 有結果看到你們增列了防詐獎席這筆錢如果沒有省過有辦法做防詐獎席嗎"},{"start":6593.712,"end":6611.021,"text":"是沒辦法所以說啊口口聲聲關心國人被詐騙關心我們國軍弟兄被詐騙結果預算不審過那請問一下國防部你們怎麼跟官兵做防詐講習這個會受到影響還有比這個更嚴重的齊救包跟保險啊"},{"start":6612.54,"end":6636.231,"text":"我們演習難免萬一有些意外狀況受傷我們需要保險對不對需要急救多少錢超過25億啊請問副部長如果預算沒有審過我們的國軍弟兄有人身安全的保險保障嗎報告委員不只是這樣我們還有戰鬥個裝也是保障我們的戰鬥人員戰鬥個裝好我們現在講戰鬥個裝往下看"},{"start":6640.438,"end":6661.012,"text":"我們飛彈 我看到新聞報導飛彈 很多飛彈恐怕籌購的進入就要現在延宕但是我看不止啊你們還編在後勤欸這些彈藥還有訓練場所是不是這樣這些加起來的時候都要多少時候影響你們所謂的戰傷對不對急救醫療14億無人機13億戰傷的救護備戰都要用到"},{"start":6666.96,"end":6683.537,"text":"怎麼辦 752億這些都是屬於新興資本支出或是屬於經常會的爭略部分的確是這樣我剛剛聽到有委員口口聲聲要幫我們國軍弟兄姊妹要來調高他們的待遇我們支不支持我們支持但是我們要強調一點"},{"start":6685.185,"end":6706.895,"text":"我們在平常的演訓我們要給他充足的什麼福利待遇我們在戰備我們要給他精裝精良的武器能夠保護自己能夠有效的來戰鬥那哪一個重要都很重要所以我現在給你一個建議其實我們目前國軍當中"},{"start":6708.769,"end":6723.658,"text":"老實說很多短疫期的志願役士官兵你知道是短疫期十年以下的嗎這些十年以下的他們都是二十郎當歲進來可能三十歲不到就退伍是不是你覺得他們從軍他們希望國家給他什麼給他好的裝備給他好的待遇"},{"start":6728.217,"end":6748.991,"text":"是 我跟你講 這些任何國家都一樣短一期的志願役士官兵 他們年輕服役他們是為國家貢獻青春青春一去不復還青春值多少錢青春需要國家給他一個退伍轉業的保障你同不同意是"},{"start":6749.671,"end":6768.088,"text":"他今天20歲到30歲他奉獻給國家他不是一輩子要在軍裡面發展他也不可能做到領月退所以他要的是什麼他先用他的青春歲月為其他人付出更多的時間他這10年可能在海上在前線"},{"start":6768.829,"end":6795.107,"text":"他沒有辦法像其他的年輕人自由的休假快樂的去消費經常的出國但是他怎樣他可以為他30歲人生的第二春存第一桶金你同意嗎是所以我要提醒國防部思考一下對這些短一期的志願役士官兵要怎麼樣想到他30歲退伍後他的第二春怎麼規劃國防部有提供進修 深造"},{"start":6796.307,"end":6805.115,"text":"學習 有沒有是鼓勵他們在軍旅生涯去念個學位 有沒有有有沒有想過 我先問你 你有沒有知道勞工的勞退 僱主要幫他提幾%"},{"start":6808.357,"end":6836.02,"text":"6%對不對農民退休儲金只要農民在10%以內他拿多少政府就拿多少最高10%換言之如果一個年輕的農民他可以在基本工資的3萬元的額度他每個月用10%3000政府要拿3000出來大家就有20%就有6000塊一個月存6000國軍目前短疫期志願士官兵有沒有這樣一個退休的一個制度來保障他有沒有"},{"start":6837.611,"end":6844.481,"text":"有沒有來你們在找的時候我告訴你我是建議副部長您聽一下是"},{"start":6845.598,"end":6873.11,"text":"其實我覺得對於這些短一期的自願意識官兵你要提供給一般勞工一般農民更高更強的退休的保障退伍的保障為什麼因為他不是退休他不是到了65歲60歲他退下來他是要去轉業所以他需要一個創業或轉業的資本如果說今天國防部可以研議我舉例我打個舉例比如說他這10年"},{"start":6874.23,"end":6890.86,"text":"他前兩年你每年幫他存10%他的信奉的10%放在他的退休專戶你甚至讓他去買什麼 買TISA買ETF都可以讓他投資基金三四年調整到12.5%每兩年調整2.5%最後兩年你幫他存20%你覺得"},{"start":6896.644,"end":6909.733,"text":"回去請你們算一下如果用這個方式你可以幫我們短一期的志願役士官兵他服役的年限到了他退伍了 他轉業了他是不是可以存一筆相當足夠的轉業或創業資本您覺得勒 夠不夠"},{"start":6913.284,"end":6929.289,"text":"這是一個值得研究的一個方案可不可以按照這個構想提出一個方案來跟我報告我在財政委員會我們今天主席也站起來了我要告訴你其實我們鼓勵什麼強化國人尤其是年輕人的退休保障"},{"start":6930.509,"end":6944.267,"text":"讓他們在年輕的時候他們付出了青春 付出了歲月國家給他在未來的生活他不是要退休 他是要轉業的他的這一桶金 他退休的時候拿你太早給他"},{"start":6945.305,"end":6971.743,"text":"小心被詐騙他退伍後他30歲他要轉業他可能有家庭有小孩有配偶想買房想要再想辦法創業這樣的一個退伍的一個退休準備請國防部研議一個月內可以嗎是一月底前我們來研究一下好謝謝委員指教好那就承諾我了是好謝謝好謝謝總委員接下來我們請陳俊忠委員"},{"start":6980.939,"end":6988.523,"text":"主席我們一樣請國防部然後國產署還有主計總署這三個單位我們請學副部長還有陳主計長還有國產署的副署長"},{"start":6998.127,"end":7013.234,"text":"好 謝謝主席這個副部長是 副部長剛剛我聽到羅明蔡委員詢問您我們中華民國有多少軍人的時候你是一時之間回答不出來還是這是國家機密或者你不知道現原編制是機密"},{"start":7014.094,"end":7034.887,"text":"現言編制有多少人是機密是不是我剛剛也想說可能是機密我上網查了一下我問了一下Google了一下中華民國有多少軍人馬上跑出來根據這個立法院的報告有寫了然後這個全球火力的這個我看還是很多單位這是公開資訊你的機密竟然是公開資訊立法院全球資訊網有寫這個美國之音粵語網有寫這個"},{"start":7040.11,"end":7063.878,"text":"軍事網站全球火力也有公告你的國家機密竟然都登在這些各大網站裡頭然後我跟你講我練一下他的這個我剛剛搜尋的結果這是這不是我一個人可以讀得到的中華民國國軍協議金人在不可能報告中率而差大致都在17萬到21.5萬人中間然後接著還有呢我又查了一下你們軍方的國防部的網站"},{"start":7065.694,"end":7079.586,"text":"我又查了一下國安部的網站他有寫招募的這個來 中華民國國安部的網站也有寫這個內容有寫說由於國軍美聯需求補充軍事官員的達一萬餘人"},{"start":7081.906,"end":7100.398,"text":"裡面也寫在網站上面啊那不是縣委編制委員這些都不是縣委編制那他問你有多少軍人的時候他也不是問你什麼編制什麼他問你是來這裡有寫啊這個2025年11月12號台海軍情這是報導你看看國防部送到立法院的報告也寫啊編制啊"},{"start":7104.155,"end":7129.735,"text":"總額在馬英九總統任內21.5萬至今年為11年之久然後接著接著這就公開資訊喔國防部的報告寫的喔編制已經接近23萬人這些都是公開資訊那個是編制不是現原編制我知道編線比我不一樣我也知道我非常尊重金門我來自金門我是來自一個最軍耐民民進軍的地方我是很好奇說你那時候沒有回答是因為它是國防機密還是說你不知道不是因為現原編制是機密"},{"start":7134.042,"end":7141.988,"text":"這個部長 次長您好這個有一個問題我今天要詢問的是金門的這個問題那你應該也很尊重軍人也很在乎軍人吧當然啊那沒問題啊那我們今天討論說因為這個預算沒有通過總預算沒過所以剛剛很多比如中委員也講到說有很多什麼事情沒有辦法做那你剛剛也說到這個戰鬥人員很多辛苦好 你知道我們立法院三讀通過那個軍人加薪的這個法案你們知道嗎"},{"start":7162.163,"end":7163.892,"text":"是知道嗎那做了沒"},{"start":7165.014,"end":7193.489,"text":"報告委員 這件事情行政院現在有你不要管行政 國防部有沒有編我們是行政院的一部分你們是國防部 國防部有沒有編這個預算你們不編是不是我們要跟行政院同步 行政是一體的你不應該站在國防部的立場為軍人爭取權利嗎行政院如果不編 你不應該編嗎可是增加的方式要跟行政一體你就是只聽上面的不關心下面的我沒有不關心下面的委員你只聽行政院長不關心這個基層的官兵"},{"start":7194.91,"end":7213.047,"text":"但是你應該怎麼做你站在國防部站在軍人上你應該編進去如果是行政把你刪掉我敬你是一條漢子什麼意思說老闆說不要編就不編然後軍人就 軍人這麼辛苦剛剛說科科生說要照顧軍人就蓋編預算的時候因為老闆說不要編不編有你這種人喔不是這個意思 報告委員不是這個意思不是啊 不是什麼意思"},{"start":7214.673,"end":7229.387,"text":"我們軍人當然要照顧可是要跟整體的公務機關一起平衡那立法院都給你法源了嘛 你就編上去被行政院刪掉對不起 你已經全力為國防部的官兵爭取權益了"},{"start":7230.441,"end":7254.633,"text":"報告委員現在這個事行政院刪掉行政院不支持那是行政院的考量嘛你站在為國軍弟兄的立場你就應該幫國軍編進去不然我就會覺得你就是取誠喪義你了解嗎因為有法源依據不是沒有啊你編了被刪掉被這個送到行政院會被刪掉那這個整體考量啊你要站在國防部的立場你要站在軍人的立場因為你是國防部尤其是國防部的副部長"},{"start":7256.214,"end":7274.543,"text":"沒關係 今天不是要跟你討論這個金門的問題金門的土地問題跟我們國安部有很大的關係國安部當時因為軍事強佔金門的土地金門人的土地用了以後沒有歸還給老百姓有的是歸還以後又有一些設施沒有拆有的是找不到人還直接交給國產署導致金門鄉親還要跟國產署要買要租"},{"start":7279.244,"end":7293.713,"text":"那這些東西本席借到非常多的這個陳情說要把我們人民的土地還給我們金門鄉親是不是本來就應該把上面的這些軍事建物拆除掉啊這基本你佔人家的土地在上面蓋房子要還了以後又不拆那是怎麼回事呢這個你回答一下你沒辦法回答是不是好那再來回答一下為什麼會這樣做"},{"start":7306.53,"end":7319.758,"text":"包委員有關這個金門是不是這個國軍佔用這些土地的問題我想我們會不會把這個相關的這個事情已經澄清很多次了而且因為不是一件是普遍的另外一個金門的鄉親根據國軍軍事勤務導致人民傷亡損害條例賠償國防部說那是他個人行為不在國家賠償之列"},{"start":7327.743,"end":7339.452,"text":"軍人有個人行為嗎都是國家的行為啊那軍方佔用國家土地很多都沒有使用要充斥所有權或繼承去購回那國防部一直說還在使用連我們前縣長李柱峰都跑去跟監察院陳情啊我們那時候好知道老百姓大到我們的那個上次我們的金門縣前縣長你看這張照片李柱峰縣長在那裡跑去跟監委陳情說國防部就是這樣子蠻狠"},{"start":7354.861,"end":7376.488,"text":"包委員這個個案我們要不是個案我想是通案我只是舉他當例子因為他是前縣長通案啊你去問監察院每次去金門的話每次去金門在裡面講個人行為這是某一個個案我們要具體的了解他所說個人行為是說這個個人行為是指軍方的不是說我們這個縣長他意思是某一個案例還有個人行為這件事情嗎這不是通案的問題"},{"start":7377.908,"end":7393.354,"text":"我舉這個例子只是這是一個例子但是普遍我想你可能不了解你們問誰負責這個部分的真的沒有接到很多陳情嗎這是軍備局這個事情今天沒有來因為本來今天是預算的部分沒關係 反正今天就有來的話很多可能也會變成國防機密照你的回答方式我沒有說是國防機密"},{"start":7394.995,"end":7396.296,"text":"我沒有說這是國防機密你給他一點無後顧之憂的保障都沒有尤其戰鬥家我們沒有不給他保障"},{"start":7417.877,"end":7429.06,"text":"有啊 因為你說行政院說這個可能什麼違憲啊什麼什麼每天拘泥在這個上面國防部就是應該編你讓行政院刪沒有關係站在你國防部的立場你就應該為軍人請命好 這個門口頂啊這個國產局 國產署啦"},{"start":7436.735,"end":7455.207,"text":"這個門口門口這個問題你應該知道門前的一塊遍地空地有很多私領域那幾乎鄉下金門鄉下人家都有那早年對不對開放登記的時候金門老百姓那時候以前軍管時代老百姓都不懂這個法令那只登記所有權門前就沒有登記都被"},{"start":7456.107,"end":7477.748,"text":"就說歸國有嘛 這些你們應該知道好來 那根據中華民國那個112年憲判制第20號就是也有相關的歷史是在日治時期 日本佔領的時候的那個私有土地總登記那個登記國有案裡頭有一些相關的判決主文就說在那個時候的相關的判決主文有說那人民基於在"},{"start":7478.769,"end":7504.173,"text":"基於該土地所有權地位請求國家土消登記時沒有民法消滅時效規定之適用你知道這個判決嗎知道知道喔好那很簡單講它就有下面三點的這個意義就是說第一個推定權利歸屬的效率不是絕對依據第二個國家不受憲法財產權的保障國家第三個導致土地被登記為國有容許國家主張時效抗命是沒有正當性可言的"},{"start":7504.733,"end":7515.087,"text":"我想請教國產署日據實在是這樣做基本早年被國家就是被軍方軍方就是國家侵佔真用的土地是不是也可以援運辦理"},{"start":7516.791,"end":7543.047,"text":"報告委員因為根據這個憲判之二十號的意思你們是不是可以幫我們檢討憲判二十號的部分是指說如果說民眾在爭議所有權在透過法院判決的時候國參署不能夠主張時效抗辯那現在基本有很多這個例子就在軍戰軍管時期因為這樣子沒有辦法登記嘛現在登記回來的時候也是遇到一樣的情形只是那個憲判這個是處理日據時代我們基本就是有軍管時代嘛"},{"start":7543.927,"end":7561.847,"text":"所以這個部分請你們回去幫我請好好的研究一下基本老百姓很多需要做這樣的登記的時候那一樣應該要比照這個先判制可以援引啦你們可以援引啦因為大家現在當老百姓要取回自己土地的時候都被用那個時效的那個方式來被駁回嘛"},{"start":7563.648,"end":7587.276,"text":"回去研究一下 幫我們來解決很快給我答案好不好 兩個月可以嗎 謝謝主計總署 考試院調高的地方機關的職務劣等流財 115年今年2月就要上路提高各地方政府所有機關兼任的非主管升到8到9 涵蓋行政技術各方面"},{"start":7588.957,"end":7612.847,"text":"地方政府的一級主管 上列7條到7到8 這個你知道嗎你知道這件事嗎 考試院這個最近的地方普遍的調高金門的主計單位來講 金門主計單位是用輪調制度就是說同一序列者會在國中小的會計主任 二級機關會計主任 鄉鎮所的主計人三個輪調 這三個是同一個序列"},{"start":7613.547,"end":7623.212,"text":"那新制二月上路是不是只有二級機關會計主任才可以調整呢那其他包括在國小會計主任及時間到了嗎還有這個鄉鎮主計員都是新人就沒有辦法調升呢原則上他是因為他調整有一定的限額嘛那所以這個部分不是限額是公平性問題因為時間到我跟您請教我有發函給你們你沒有回覆啦"},{"start":7638.93,"end":7650.918,"text":"對 所以這個部分你看一下這樣會造成的不公平一個剛從台灣調過來跟原來資深的這個過程中在這個整個 因為剛好有一個升等的部分在這個過程中整個要很公平的對待"},{"start":7652.681,"end":7663.227,"text":"你要看一下你們再仔細的回覆好嗎在這個過程中這個處理原則要公平才不會說在不同時間點站到不同位置就會有不同的這個我們是請縣市政府要針對這部分做公平的調整好麻煩你要關注謝謝陳委員接下來我們請賴會議員委員"},{"start":7677.315,"end":7696.685,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請主席總長還有我們財政部次長也邀請國防部副部長跟海委會副主委好 請陳主席長然後阮次長 徐副部長還有張副主委"},{"start":7699.009,"end":7725.397,"text":"主席長今天1月5號2025剛結束是那去年一整年我們看到了全球經濟的一個動盪那加上國內房產房地產跟國內內需的一個起伏那我想在這裡請教主席長就是說其實如果從2025年我們整體的一個稅收的一個情況稅收的一個情況那"},{"start":7727.498,"end":7740.025,"text":"還有就是說整體的整體的一些就是稅收跟稅入的相比這一個那沒關係主席長我先讓次長來回答我讓次長來回答對委員好"},{"start":7742.606,"end":7758.641,"text":"是 處長這個剛才我就是說我們來盤點一下就是說在整個2025年的稅收那是稅收是超收還是稅入是切口我們可以看到了就是說部長他其實在"},{"start":7760.083,"end":7782.283,"text":"上個月底他受訪的時候他有特別講到了今年的稅收可能短缺那可是不代表財政是轉壞是財政是轉壞那我們從一些數據上來看的話我們從就是說整體的一個數字上來看的話我們看到我們的貨物稅還有我們的特種那個"},{"start":7783.504,"end":7805.269,"text":"特種貨物稅跟勞務稅還有地價稅土地稅這裡頭其實是短缺的那你怎麼樣來講說這個短缺的情形會不會影響到中央的統籌分配稅稅款還是要等到年底的一個精算才會知道我相信現在應該是已經知道了"},{"start":7806.05,"end":7821.787,"text":"對 現在因為我們那個統計稅款是說年初的時候就會通報給地方政府去編列預算那到最後看是我們時增數超過預算數或者是少於預算數我們到時候在年初的時候再做調整"},{"start":7823.869,"end":7844.177,"text":"所以到底應該基本上來講的話我們很明確的我們看到的數字是短缺的應該是短缺幾百億有可能但是我們還要因為到現在還在決算當中我跟你講不是有可能確實就是短缺目前我們預估是有沒有超過500億"},{"start":7847.019,"end":7868.891,"text":"我們預估是大概400到600之間因為現在還在400到600之間好 次長那我想請教一下就是說土地增值稅跟營業稅光是我不問所有的我就是問光是中央的你的土增稅土增稅跟房屋合一稅少了多少"},{"start":7869.711,"end":7892.192,"text":"還有貨物稅因為貨物稅其實也關係到就是說在去年一整年因為這個車價的一個問題造成消費者就是遲遲一直到了年底才開始買一些就是他們意期上意期上的希望買的車子那我要知道就是說貨物稅少了多少然後土增稅少了多少我這邊的資料"},{"start":7898.345,"end":7919.092,"text":"我是不是請副署長來講比較清楚好誰可以回答我跟委員報告我們的貨物稅的部分大概就是截至11月的時候大概就一點1300多億大概達成率大概是77%"},{"start":7921.916,"end":7940.583,"text":"對 達成率77%可是還是短收嘛 對不對這是事實上是不是內需不如預期主要是我們因為受到美國關稅的影響再來就是我們的一些車輛類的部分大概有受到影響"},{"start":7941.243,"end":7970.729,"text":"我們受到美國關稅的影響還有內需不如預期是的謝謝 次長那我再請教一下就是說關於所有這三項營業稅 土地增值稅黃地合一稅你到了最終就是其實這個數字你已經掌握在手上了對那如果跟預算數相差比差了多少相差比的數字"},{"start":7972.328,"end":7999.351,"text":"市長你這個簡單的數字你怎麼沒有把它記在心裡你應該馬上回答我因為我這個是比較細項還是我沒有像陳一貞那麼兇那個房地合一稅房地合一稅是目前是大概是少了百分之大概會少了大概十幾億剛才還有剛才提到就是那個"},{"start":8000.609,"end":8022.507,"text":"土生稅的問題土生稅的話大概少了165億我想在這裡跟財政部所有的同仁鼓勵也跟你們喊話加油因為總預算卡在程序委員會裡頭其實對每一個行政部門都是一個很大的困難那我們也要發揮我們自己的一個"},{"start":8023.368,"end":8050.576,"text":"那個智慧那謝謝那接著主計長我再請教一下快過年了接下來各個地方政府都要花年終獎金還有考級獎金如果財政部統籌分配款無法無法足爾的撥補的話那地方政府怎麼過年那主計總署你的一般性一般性補助款會不會先撥呢還是先借給地方政府來過年"},{"start":8051.976,"end":8078.763,"text":"對 我們這個因為地方號過年的時候它初步報出來需求大概需要一千多億那一千多億這個部分我們有一些的譬如說社會福利方面的補助款我們就提前全部先撥來協助他們在一個財務的調度那另外在少子女化我們也一次撥到六月了所以整個調整下來目前大概有"},{"start":8079.423,"end":8097.488,"text":"五個縣市它缺口是20億那20億這個部分我們也逐一打電話逐一打電話去問他這個部分有沒有他們調度不調得過來他們都說OK所以目前是所有都已經協調完畢所以這個部分我們供應也發出去大概整個一個年關調度的時候"},{"start":8099.169,"end":8121.791,"text":"那我再請教你以台南市為例的話原本他是那個申請125億後來你們就是說大概是給了80億那其實這個會不會影響到台南市政府甚至就是全國的這個所有的公務人員他的考積獎金還有就是說他的年終獎金我只要你回答我會不會"},{"start":8122.512,"end":8151.372,"text":"不會啦 這個部分因為我們這是針對年關調度的一個特別的措施然後我們也很多的計畫事先提前撥款那是這樣 是提前撥款是 所以主計總署非常有信心就是不會讓地方政府斷糧因為我們逐一縣市都聯絡過對 你逐一都聯絡過好 謝謝 那也跟主計長加油接著我們請國安部部長"},{"start":8154.76,"end":8168.192,"text":"是 部長部長早安我想我們的國防預算是不是可以應付這樣的一個經驗經驗的規模一直都在擴大可是國防的預算卻被卡關到底就是說"},{"start":8169.895,"end":8184.515,"text":"我們知道就是說在今年的過年我們有很多軍人臨時被召回軍營甚至有不少人是在軍隊中過了一個跨年在這裡也跟你們致意那就是"},{"start":8185.316,"end":8202.098,"text":"經驗的規模變大了國防預算被卡住了到底你們要面對這麼大的一個花費這些錢每一次共經的一個演練的一次我們應對的花費要增加很多增加很多那有沒有準備好"},{"start":8203.905,"end":8225.596,"text":"報告委員 這個分兩個部分回答您第一個 這一次演習過程並不叫統一的召回那它是各部隊戰備需求由各指揮官自行決定的召回是 不是臨時的召回是本來就是在議期中就是要召回了"},{"start":8225.996,"end":8243.119,"text":"因為應付這個緊急的情況各指揮官自己下命令這是第一個部分那第二部分關於這次預算的影響剛才我也報告我再簡單講有四個部分嚇阻的戰力包括各種各樣的飛彈不對稱的戰力包括標槍"},{"start":8244.861,"end":8255.576,"text":"刺針等等還有戰鬥人員的保護譬如說個裝 醫療等等最後是對官兵的照顧在這四個方面我們受到影響"},{"start":8256.533,"end":8274.671,"text":"好 那再請教你就是說整個軍演它其實是擴大了它的油錢的切口年年的漲那你這個預算卡關揮機可以不可以揮你看 你的油瓶採購逐年在增加連續4年已經不敷使用了"},{"start":8275.291,"end":8290.162,"text":"那如果你在沿用去年的預算當然我們知道就是說你可以用預算法54條你照樣可以沿用114年的預算照常的來使用可是這個軍演這個頻率增加了這麼大"},{"start":8291.343,"end":8313.955,"text":"那你看就是所有就是我這個跟你整理出來的從109年到113年甚至你114年你還增列了11億當然115年你才多增加了4000萬你是夠不夠你不能有飛機結果你沒有油錢會不會這樣子一個困境我們請主席回答您好"},{"start":8315.697,"end":8335.736,"text":"委員好 我是主席局長有關油料的部分誠如剛剛委員講我們是逐年都在調整調整的原因當然就是因為敵情威脅日趨嚴重就像上禮拜突然他又宣布要一個演習所以我們的油料可能我之前可以先用以前的經驗去推估 去調整但是因應突發的狀況"},{"start":8337.529,"end":8365.911,"text":"这笔钱我势必是没有编在原来的年度预算内那如果突发的状况你也一样有钱那你也准备好了你从哪边去挪用因为钱一定是灵活的这个预算是灵活的是 各位报告因为以油料预算为例115年我们编了116亿比114年我们大概增加了4亿多那这部分当然如果说现在这个时间你有增加4亿多"},{"start":8367.652,"end":8393.629,"text":"我們原本編是112億然後115年編了116億就油料的部分如果說現在我們去運用的話因為我增加數是4億所以在油料的額度上面可能我們會被管制的目前的額度大概4億如果上半年這部分如果是臨時的一些狀況我們可能要移緩計級增加的部分就是沒辦法去動資"},{"start":8394.95,"end":8403.921,"text":"好 謝謝賴委員到了下半年可能就有一點會捉襟見肘好 我們再來想辦法好不好是好 謝謝主席好 謝謝賴委員接下來我們請顏寬恆委員"},{"start":8420.03,"end":8426.591,"text":"主席各位列席官員大家好主席有請國防部徐副部長我們請徐副部長國務院好徐副部長你好今天的專報其實我們在上一次會議我就已經說過了這個只要行政院如實編列軍人加薪的預算總預算就可以馬上附為審查"},{"start":8448.888,"end":8473.674,"text":"奈何就是辭職不鞭那剛剛其他委員也有問是國防部自己不鞭還是行政院不准所以是國防部自己不鞭所以你身為國防部的副部長結果連自己都不挺我們的國防弟兄把國軍放在心上這每一個人都在講但是沒有人在做所以我知道你是外交常財"},{"start":8474.514,"end":8502.753,"text":"那代表我國出席過許多的國際戰略交流類的這樣子一個論壇跟會議但我不曉得說副部長你有沒有親自這個到部隊去第一線去了解軍人的聲音上一次的會議我在這邊舉出我們榮景鄉親的例子那這一次就帶部長我們的副部長來看一看國軍在網路上是怎麼樣看待軍人這一份職業"},{"start":8504.855,"end":8527.926,"text":"無論是當過志願役的還是義務役的其實都知道現在國軍是非常的缺人那大多數都不願意繼續擔任軍人這個職務那從這個圖片上網友的評論你可以看到說基層的問題很多那總結來看就是第一個待遇不好錢少工時長那休假常被召回"},{"start":8528.84,"end":8546.024,"text":"等等的這些不合邏輯的這樣子的一個原因但是軍隊紀律注重成績的節制所以導致許多人不願意將軍人視為一份長期可發展的職業所以副部長對於普遍基層軍人這樣來評論國軍這一份職業以及點出現存的問題請問你的回應"},{"start":8554.885,"end":8575.579,"text":"謝謝委員指教您所找到這個資料它多大程度是一個普遍現象我覺得我們可能還要再考察一下因為它並不是經過科學的隨機抽樣找到的一個資料當然有這樣的意見我們會深入這是第一點第二點我們沒有不照顧官兵我們也不是說"},{"start":8576.42,"end":8600.322,"text":"我們不願意編 而是基於行政議題我們尊重行政院的目前的這個向法院的一個訴訟所以我們要等這個結果那我們也今年應該說去年我們也有很多佳績更誇張 各種各樣的佳績副部長 更誇張的是我們的委員我們的委員說只有僱傭兵才會為錢打仗"},{"start":8602.64,"end":8620.32,"text":"這讓人家大肆一驚加薪增加這樣子的一個為我們國軍弟兄來增加他們權益然後呢來體恤他們的辛勞以及招募更多優秀的人才這個是我們的目標啊對不對那所以"},{"start":8622.369,"end":8649.543,"text":"如果說連基本的需求都不能滿足那就更不要去談什麼福利升遷這些基地的部分你連基本的做不到你還在談什麼未來這些很幻想的東西空幻的東西空泛的東西所以這種說法是不只是傷害國軍的士氣也暴露出執政黨對於軍事現實的一個嚴重的誤判世界上沒有任何一支軍隊是靠"},{"start":8650.546,"end":8662.382,"text":"情懷撐起來的所以合理的薪資 基本待遇是最基本的一個制度條件不是獎勵 也不是施捨對不對 是不是這樣子 副部長"},{"start":8663.829,"end":8687.977,"text":"報委員關於這是最基本的吧關於軍人待遇我們沒有不調但是他是整體行政院調整一部分但是我沒有看到國防部站出來澄清或者是譴責或者是批判這樣子的言論所以等於是說國防部我們這些長官是不是都已經默認了把軍人"},{"start":8691.638,"end":8711.036,"text":"加薪 均能增加待遇變成是一個唯利是圖那這樣子的情況是不是讓我們的這些從軍的國軍將士情何以堪提高待遇各行各業都要啦不是只有國軍但是面對目前兩岸的局勢"},{"start":8712.541,"end":8723.01,"text":"這樣子一個緊張的狀態有可能發生任何的這樣子的一個情況的時候我們現在缺人缺武器什麼都缺"},{"start":8724.549,"end":8749.5,"text":"連待遇也缺那怎麼樣提升國防戰力呢怎麼樣來提升防衛任性呢強化戰力這些東西所以你連基本待遇都不願意協助他們那怎麼樣要求他們呢未來使用武器的也是國軍未來上戰場的也是國軍抵禦外敵的也是國軍對不對可是我們的一個一個待遇低人手不足那何談戰力戰力要怎麼去"},{"start":8751.296,"end":8776.329,"text":"講這些東西我們去年有五項加擠志願役 勤務加擠 戰鬥部隊加擠戰航管加擠 電偵加擠 網路戰加擠這些加擠全部加總起來我請教一下副部長我們現在基層的阿兵哥二等兵 一等兵 上等兵多少錢4萬2 4萬4 4萬5是不是這樣子"},{"start":8779.941,"end":8807.375,"text":"對不對 對嘛那如果說我想要請教說我們副部長如果你不譴責我們中委員說的只有僱傭兵才看錢打仗才要拿錢打仗如果你不譴責這樣子的言論那就等於是國防部支持那請問我們長官你們願不願意自請調降你們的薪水因為你們不是拿錢打仗的嘛你們不是拿錢保衛國家的嘛"},{"start":8808.789,"end":8830.445,"text":"願不願意跟我們第一線的阿兵哥一等兵 二等兵 上等兵拿一樣的薪水 拿一樣的待遇外高權重 你應該要來爭取為我們第一線 我們的國軍我們這些阿兵哥士官來提升他們的權益嘛 照顧他們然後我們要購買這個"},{"start":8833.021,"end":8855.041,"text":"國防的武器我們要軍購我們也不反對我們只希望你們提高軍人的待遇加薪把這個案子你們只要送進來一定可以馬上審查國防預算一定可以馬上赴委報告委員如果赴委以後我們就可以公開討論一案一案的來討論那你預算不送進來啊你沒有加薪啊報告這個事情也可以在赴委之後討論啊"},{"start":8859.554,"end":8884.121,"text":"你沒有這個不要把兩個混在一起這個是最基本的條件我們三讀通過了為國軍加薪為我們的警消海巡的部分提高他們的一個這些權益的部分三讀通過了不編預算包委員我剛講過我們的立場是我們是行政的一部分行政是一體的"},{"start":8886.314,"end":8910.77,"text":"所以我說你們隨便說要照顧阿明哥我們的國軍弟兄要照顧他們事實上是沒有做你們連做都沒做如果你做了被行政院否決不是 你們做了如果被行政院否決OK 這是行政院的決定作為下屬單位尊重上屬 沒有錯但是問題你連做都沒做所以我在這邊要告訴你 副部長"},{"start":8912.22,"end":8926.027,"text":"如果只要你們馬上編列我們軍人加薪還有我們的這些部分只要一編列就可以馬上復違好不好好我們副部長請回謝謝主席有請我們陳組長好陳組長委員好"},{"start":8935.9,"end":8958.45,"text":"主席長你好其實講了很多不管說你說預算沒有過絕對影響經濟政府消費投資受挫這些議題我們在去年就已經都討論過了但是經濟成長除了說政府消費還有政府投資還包括民間消費民間投資還有出口你把這些焦點全部把它拉到政府端"},{"start":8959.13,"end":8982.804,"text":"等於說把景氣好壞 投資信心強弱還有外需的冷熱全部硬塞成預算過不過這單一個原因把全部這些把它塞在政府端說是因為預算不過所以這是偷換概念所以主委長在民間消費投資出口等數據都還沒有出來的情況目前那你是透過什麼樣的數據來說"},{"start":8986.052,"end":8988.366,"text":"你透過什麼樣的數據可以預算出影響"},{"start":8989.939,"end":9011.335,"text":"經濟的結論因為這些預算不過而影響經濟的結論你可告訴我一下 簡單說明是 所以我們說不是全部啦但是問題就是說你如果業務費和設備費那每100億大概會影響0.05%但是你如果說消費的部分呢消費的部分本身就是每100億影響0.03是這樣子所以這個部分但是因為你還有出口啊還有進口這些等等"},{"start":9017.899,"end":9020.8,"text":"你都把他怪罪說是預算不夠但是我們只是預估裡面這裡面就是針對他100億來做台灣的經濟成長絕對不是靠政府花錢來撐 是當然但是他投資是算在哪裡中我們不要把人民當作笨蛋因為不要忽略"},{"start":9034.932,"end":9051.837,"text":"不要忽略國務委員對於我國經濟的努力跟付出所以不要這樣子不斷的放話說預算未過的影響經濟 對不對所以我希望你是專業事務官所以回到你真正應該辦你的本分好不好是 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 謝謝坤衡委員接著請李坤誠召委諮詢"},{"start":9068.475,"end":9071.138,"text":"謝謝主席 我先請阮次長好 阮次長次長好 等一下談總預算比較沉重一點先講一點好消息好了股市上萬點 這是第一次吧第一次股市上三萬點有沒有預期說上三萬點會來得這麼早"},{"start":9094.859,"end":9114.174,"text":"會怎麼樣來得這麼快那麼早還是本來就有預期了因為市場真的是很難預估不過最近因為我們這個像比如說像AI或者是說高速運算等等這些這個新興的產業的發展真的非常的快速那當然也反映到這個股價上面"},{"start":9114.634,"end":9132.02,"text":"所以我們的股市現在整個市值都超過100兆以上所以居全世界第8位所以過去大概很難預料但是現在看起來是今天已經正式超過3萬點以前大家覺得說3萬點好像不太可能發生但是今天就發生了所以市長認為這一個上3萬點的原因是在哪裡"},{"start":9140.275,"end":9161.286,"text":"最主要我覺得還是我們幾個關鍵產業的發揮重大的一個作用我們都是AI 高科技我看今天能夠上三萬點應該也是台積電的功勞嗎台積電它今天就漲了95塊它只要是漲一塊它就帶動八點所以它今天大概帶動了七八百點了吧它都貢獻了七八百點"},{"start":9161.986,"end":9185.925,"text":"對啊 這個大家也在關心就是說這個會不會成為今年的股市又是成為台積電一個人的武林因為大家有去看過就是說去年雖然我們股市有在漲每個股民平均賺也是大概平均大概賺140萬左右但是我們有將近百分之四十幾家的所有上市公司是在這個年限以下的"},{"start":9186.665,"end":9205.461,"text":"超過一半是在年限以下的所以這其實市長認為說這樣子的發展健不健康當然我們是希望說產業的發展能夠更平衡目前是有一點兩極化的味道就是比較高科技的跟AI有關的跟高順運算跟伺服器有關這樣子的發展對台灣的經濟來講"},{"start":9209.046,"end":9226.291,"text":"這樣會好嗎因為反映在股市上面因為其實你看今天雖然是漲到三萬點但是下跌的比上漲的加速還多所以這一部分可能就是希望我們在跨部會來努力能夠協助那些比較相對比較傳產的這些產業"},{"start":9228.352,"end":9254.897,"text":"能夠持續來升級對啊 不要就是說今年還是變成是台積電一個人的武林就是只有他獨領風騷這樣其實長期以來對於台灣的產業發展並不好就像次長所講的會呈現兩極化的發展這個可能要稍微注意一下是 我們有在注意好 謝謝次長接下來我們請這個國防部徐副部長好 國防部徐副部長"},{"start":9262.005,"end":9282.058,"text":"副部長當然這兩天最大的國際新聞就是委內瑞拉的總統被美軍抓走了然後外界就說這個是一個美軍對於委內瑞拉的一個斬首的行動當然有些人在台灣就會講說那中共是不是也有類似的這個斬首的行動其實他們的這個斬首行動是從"},{"start":9287.219,"end":9300.377,"text":"2015年 據手邊有的資料2015年其實他們就是在這一個內蒙古的一個朱日和他們一個基地其實就開始了那2015年 這還不是民進黨執政這是國民黨執政時期所以從2015年其實"},{"start":9302.459,"end":9317.992,"text":"這個在中國來講他們就在他們的內蒙古自治區朱日和他們就有一個模擬總統府的一個基地當然現在這個基地越做越像去年10月日本的智庫國際演他也有提到一個報告"},{"start":9319.133,"end":9342.885,"text":"中國人民解放軍正在強化對台灣的這個斬首作戰的演練他除了有總統府還有模擬我們的司法院模擬外交部甚至連這一個他們所謂的這個地下通道到底有沒有其實我也不確定很模擬一個從司法院到總統府的一個280公尺的一個地下通道那請問一下你們對於這一個中國解放軍的這一個斬首作戰的類似的這種計畫有沒有掌握"},{"start":9344.522,"end":9365.971,"text":"包括我們國軍有突發狀況處置規定對於各種突發狀況我們有想定然後根據想定進行相關的訓練所以也包含解放軍有可能會進行整首作戰是的 包括委員相關的敵情我們都有納入年度的訓練計畫裡面"},{"start":9367.928,"end":9387.013,"text":"那所以說對於這一個中共這一個他們的一個在諸日和的基地的這一個部署的情況你們也都有掌握嗎包委員 是的有關共軍所有的這個比較大型的地面的訓練中心那我們情勢是都有所掌握好 那我再請教一下副部長今天的這一個"},{"start":9389.134,"end":9415.976,"text":"報告當然最主要就是說所有的我們關於新興的計劃新增計劃我們的預算都會受到影響我看到國防部的報告裡面特別有提到就是說我們有一個F16型的作戰資源夾艙還有武器彈藥的籌購案這個是整個計劃會受到影響嗎就是它有新增額度的部分會受到影響新增額度大概會多少會受到影響"},{"start":9418.373,"end":9426.359,"text":"你們這邊寫200億 是包含精準火力打擊系統還有魚叉飛彈 還有F16型的甲艙還有彈藥籌購 還有M2000G10附件的存量需求這是你們的報告"},{"start":9440.782,"end":9453.783,"text":"因為這次的這一個中國的軍演裡面那至少我們看到說我們這一個F6型的這個甲艙它有競爭鎖定 對不對那接下來如果這個預算沒有通過的話那這個方面是不是會受到影響"},{"start":9454.815,"end":9474.309,"text":"是 包委員我是建軍處處長這方面確實是會受到影響這方面美軍剛跟合約商訂約如果今年沒有預算沒有過的話將影響到後續的備料跟產制作業那整個案子大概是30億元就是說我們已經決定要跟美方買了"},{"start":9475.68,"end":9492.088,"text":"但是因為總運算沒有通過所以變成說我們這30億沒有錢去付 去付美方所以就拿不到這些是算是零件嗎 還是怎麼樣會影響到組件的交運那接下來怎麼去因為中國軍演他隨時來就來那接下來怎麼辦"},{"start":9497.927,"end":9527.171,"text":"我們必須要透過各式的會議跟美方協商後續是否可以準時的交易我們也會向立院委員說明希望能夠讓預算盡量的進步因為你們很多包含這一些我們要購買的武器也會受到影響包含這一個標槍飛彈 四針飛彈甚至連這個油料的撥補都會受到影響嗎對都會受到影響 那怎麼辦針節使用 你也不能說這一個它來的時候我們不上去"},{"start":9529.13,"end":9550.25,"text":"是 沈陸委員講的這些項目都會受到影響那我們還是很希望說能夠盡快審議讓這些受影響的這個程度能夠盡可能降低我覺得受影響要跟外界說明清楚那尤其是在中共軍演剛結束的時候那我們的這個不論是我們的國防預算還有我們的這個軍購的預算都被擋"},{"start":9550.911,"end":9576.484,"text":"然後也要對外去澄清那現在在野黨都講說這個特別條例什麼只有兩頁A4紙然後就要拿到1.25兆我們現在討論的是條例不是總預算這個東西要對外講清楚但是在野黨都是內行人講外行話他就跟你講說這條例現在才兩頁然後就要拿這個1.25兆預算你條例不過的話你怎麼去審總預算呢我覺得這個東西都要對外去講清楚因為就像這次的這個軍演"},{"start":9578.069,"end":9592.179,"text":"中國也釋放出很多的假說訊息這等於是說除了這個正式的軍演之外這個資訊戰 這個一些訊息戰也是變成說這一次在中國軍演的時候他們也有特別去琢磨那至少我就看到了"},{"start":9594.441,"end":9607.987,"text":"有一些類應該就是他們的認知作戰比如說還講我們的部長去休假了然後無人機還飛到我們這邊來拍攝101的照片然後還說我們F6V的戰機鎖定他們這個是P圖類似這種的假設訊息這些資訊戰國防部掌握了多少"},{"start":9621.158,"end":9650.678,"text":"有沒有馬上就回應我覺得我比較在乎是這個我有觀察到說你們沒有在第一時間就馬上就回應沒有 委員這個部分其實您現在上面所提的其實我們掌握到了以後我們需要立即查證然後我們以最快的速度不論是用圖卡或者是新聞稿而且我們每天都有召開記者會都有及時的說明所以你說他們說無人機拍攝到101照片"},{"start":9651.981,"end":9655.132,"text":"这个我觉得用大脑想就是假的不可能飞到这边来"},{"start":9656.716,"end":9675.266,"text":"確定沒有進24海里所以我們立即就在圖卡上面公佈在我們的臉書上所以我覺得這個東西要及時去澄清因為其實我覺得軍演是歸軍演但是他們利用這種認知作戰的方式是企圖要影響台灣的這些明星士氣就覺得說這個無人機已經飛過來要飛到這麼近或是說他們的這個殲擊的戰機已經飛到這個恆春半島已經飛過去等等之類的"},{"start":9683.21,"end":9706.043,"text":"然後還說他們飛過去我們也拍不到我們雷達也偵測不到等等之類的這些我覺得他們是利用這次軍演其實就是在測試在測試說第一個我們的反應能力怎麼樣有沒有即時能夠做澄清第二個是說我們到底台灣的內部士氣有沒有受到影響是不是有人也跟著一起附和在傳播 在散佈這一些假說訊息這就是認知作戰的一種我覺得認知作戰"},{"start":9706.983,"end":9735.754,"text":"比目前的軍演影響都還要大 老實講因為這個是直接影響到台灣內部的這些明星士氣我是要求你們就是說在第一時間確定了這是假敘敘 但是說什麼部長沒有去開會這些東西都要立即要澄清因為我看很多是我們有相關委員先澄清之後你們的圖卡才出來其實不應該這樣子這個大家要注意因為接下來中國類似的軍演跟認知作戰只會越來越多"},{"start":9736.931,"end":9745.542,"text":"謝謝委員指教 我們會改進對啊 這部分我覺得要加強好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝坤臣召委接著請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":9765.306,"end":9774.754,"text":"謝謝主席我請財政部次長好 蘭次長副處長副處長副處長副處長副處長"},{"start":9790.441,"end":9817.711,"text":"我們台灣的生育率我相信你們很清楚那麼這一次去年在美國跟國際社會辦了一個大型的調查227個國家跟地區當中我們台灣是最低的生育率0.87也就是平均每位女性生0.87位小朋友那這當然比"},{"start":9819.236,"end":9837.734,"text":"相對也低的日本新加坡新加坡還有0.97日本大概1.3其他國家都1.5以上我們大概是全世界平均各國的一半所以少子化"},{"start":9839.028,"end":9862.269,"text":"已經是我們台灣的國安問題啦所以我希望在這一個部分財政部 負稅署你們應該與時俱進就是針對我們如何幫助婦女同胞們他們來增加生育這一個部分該做的措施我們應該給予適當的優惠比方說我現在舉例啦"},{"start":9863.519,"end":9887.168,"text":"婦女同胞生小孩以後去坐月子中心那之前我就跟財政部跟你們跟負稅署要求說坐月子那麼這一個部分的支出應該可以免稅結果你們的答覆竟然是說坐月子是休養不是醫療所以你們拒絕 天啊"},{"start":9888.659,"end":9904.244,"text":"國安問題是要我們全體各部會全面的來面對你不能把它定義為說做月子只是調養 休養那不是醫療你們就不給減稅 不給免稅"},{"start":9906.83,"end":9917.832,"text":"這是很可惡的事情婦女同胞生育以後坐月子不但調養好自己的身體以後工作才能重新回到職場"},{"start":9919.741,"end":9945.813,"text":"而且調養好身體也才可能再生第二胎 第三胎可能再計畫再去生嘛 不是這樣嗎所以這是此時此刻是我們國家面對最嚴重的少子化的國安問題的時候我希望在這一個部分 你算一算嘛我也跟負稅署想啊那你要不要你們去算"},{"start":9946.853,"end":9975.008,"text":"說如果照這個生育率那我們每一位生育的婦女都我們幫她做月子部分不是幫她出錢喔只是說這部分錢可以抵稅 減稅 免稅那你去算一算這樣我們國家必須負擔多少可不可以跟委員報告剛才委員提的的確是我們的一個很重要的面臨了一個很重要的問題"},{"start":9977.486,"end":9993.673,"text":"所以我們要提高生育率其實真的不是靠財政部這是跨部會統籌來辦理財政部這部分其實也是做了一些努力比如說我們提供幼兒的扣除額我們已經拉到非常高這我知道"},{"start":9995.694,"end":10010.291,"text":"你們先前在人工生育的部分在不孕症的部分人家那麼多我還舉過例子啊高等法院你問女法官她就是這一個部分去花費的部分"},{"start":10011.363,"end":10035.95,"text":"他來報所得稅扣抵的時候你們竟然這個一毛不拔你塊錢也不給他抵後來我們已經有那部分已經放寬相關的規定了你們那個規定規定得莫名其妙你的意思是你們的當時你們的意思是說他去的那家診所他報稅不完整莫名其妙"},{"start":10037.907,"end":10057.279,"text":"報稅哪一家醫院診所報稅是不是齊備那是財政部是負稅署你們另外再去立案再去查的事情怎麼會怪罪到我們一般民眾要來要求抵稅的時候你拿的必須他有完整的"},{"start":10057.719,"end":10076.51,"text":"完碎紀錄的哪有這種事情所以跟委員報告我想委員也很清楚後來我們也放寬解釋對 你們有放寬我是要跟財政部提醒不要再用那種奇奇怪怪的理由好不好上次那個理由就是很奇怪這一次的理由也是很莫名其妙你把它定義成說"},{"start":10078.038,"end":10092.972,"text":"坐月子 說這個是調養 無視醫療我坦白講 這我完全不能接受多數 絕大多數的民眾也不能接受你這一點回去研究啦 好不好好 這一部分我們再次討論另外針對這個在查核你們有提了息產地"},{"start":10102.323,"end":10127.042,"text":"預防稀產地的部分你們有四大經濟措施啦你們也成立了強化違規轉運查核小組等等等等那我覺得為什麼查核率那麼多我覺得有一樣因為你這四項方案裡面就是要第四項就是說全民協力鼓勵大家去檢舉但是檢舉啊到現在我看你去年一整年的資料檢舉零欸 為什麼"},{"start":10130.024,"end":10147.202,"text":"因為我不知道你有看過你這個辦法裡面檢舉人除了他列舉他自己的資料我是誰 我要檢舉我光明磊落這個沒有話講但是你們竟然要他檢舉就被舉發人的資料"},{"start":10148.163,"end":10161.229,"text":"被舉發人這個公司你要鉅細明疑就是不但他們要身分證 字號 護照號碼公司名稱 公司的統一編號公司的地址 天啊"},{"start":10165.438,"end":10188.549,"text":"檢舉人他又不是狗仔隊又不是情報員他哪有辦法知道這麼多他只要具體的告訴你哪家公司或者哪個個人不是這樣嗎這些公司這些被檢舉的人你們要查的時候你們自然而然的有辦法有他的其他的資料不是嗎"},{"start":10189.769,"end":10207.909,"text":"跟委員報告 這個就是關於檢舉的這一部分那目前可以領取這個檢舉獎金的就只有自由貿易港區的這一部分可以來領取但是目前我們查獲的這些案子我們移到貿易署去裁罰的這些268案裡面"},{"start":10210.191,"end":10237.143,"text":"都不是來自自由貿易港區都是來自課稅區跟保稅區那課稅區跟保稅區目前的貿易署目前沒有提供相關的檢舉獎金我就是跟你講為什麼檢舉案是零你把被檢舉你說檢舉人要講自己的身分這個應當 他要具名他要勇敢承擔他不是但是被檢舉者"},{"start":10239.4,"end":10250.973,"text":"他只要檢舉人能講出哪個公司哪個個人哪個集團其他被檢舉人的資料你們再去查啦 是不是這樣"},{"start":10253.188,"end":10269.742,"text":"簡化啦 你懂嗎了解了解只要要求檢舉人你不能隨隨便便檢舉你不能匿名檢舉因為這是多重大的檢舉啊不是啊我的意思我們懂 我們了解好了 那另外我跟你講喔這個我們人均GDP喔"},{"start":10270.422,"end":10296.816,"text":"比方說去年我們說我們有7.37的經濟成長率那人均GDP也因為這樣子調高人均GDP變成我們來到4萬美元但是我們全民的感受就是說看得到 吃不到不是這樣嗎就是說我們的經濟成長率有7.37那麼高但是我們全體人民並沒有說因為這樣就有感"},{"start":10297.915,"end":10314.606,"text":"然後GDP來到4萬美元它是看得到吃不到所以我是認為這些亮眼的GDP背後有不可以忽視的產業的變化我們要注意那為什麼要你財政部注意"},{"start":10315.486,"end":10340.096,"text":"除了政策上以外因為你管這些公營行庫也就是說你如果看這些表格就是說ICT產業那麼我們以去年我們就以去年三個月來講它的成長是非常好我們台灣最驕傲的電子零組件直通產品這些我們的成長率大概都有兩位數這非常好但是相對的我們產產業"},{"start":10344.139,"end":10359.809,"text":"傳統產業從基本金屬 機械等等到化學品 橡膠品礦產品等等還有這個食品類大概都下滑大概是下滑了兩位數字所以我意思就是說我們"},{"start":10361.29,"end":10372.364,"text":"國家我們政府要注意這些資源不要讓他偏掉那麼財政部你們要交代複稅署交代他們說第一點不要對產產業過度的苛責動不動"},{"start":10378.154,"end":10392.814,"text":"表現很老的公司你沒事也是去把他查查稅這個部分要減少不要去騷擾人家第二點銀行的貸款的部分我們是不是不能只重在資通產業在高科技業"},{"start":10393.675,"end":10415.824,"text":"因為他們已經很成熟很進步了他們的資金不會太大的問題但是產產業尤其在這一次美國關稅這種打擊之下他們現在遇到很多困難那麼公營行庫民營的我們沒辦法只能用勸說但是公營行庫這八大公營行庫部長"},{"start":10417.825,"end":10425.299,"text":"那個市長這些八大供應安庫董事長總經理都是你們派的他們都是關股所以你交代他們應該對產產業"},{"start":10428.314,"end":10447.163,"text":"在資金的融通方面給予優惠 給予補助至少不要雨天收傘 可不可以跟委員報告這一部分我們很早就已經通令下去特別是對那些比較說到台美關稅衝擊的這些傳統產業絕對不要雨天收傘這個我們已經強調很多次而且他們也是朝這個方向來走"},{"start":10456.107,"end":10473.092,"text":"我們希望就是說在這困難的時候能夠協助這些船船能夠走過這個最困難的時刻好 很好你們有這麼做就好那坐月子中心我希望你另外我們再來研議看看會後你另外給我一些答覆好不好是 謝謝委員好 謝謝王委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":10488.421,"end":10491.876,"text":"謝謝主席 我先請財政部次長好 請阮次長"},{"start":10499.748,"end":10523.715,"text":"市長早 我想我們還是很關心有關財政部從之前提出的所謂的新型案貸款我上一次質詢的時候要求你們去清查所謂的高所得也就是每年將近200萬或到3、400萬以上的然後另外就是高年齡50歲以上的貸款你們給我的報告是說你們清查完畢了"},{"start":10525.255,"end":10550.957,"text":"50岁以上的只有7000多户占5%然后高所得呢超过200万年所得的有1万多户比例占8.27%但事实上我们总金额已经达到14万多件这样的比例虽然算低但是次长以所谓的高所得来得到新西安贷款的利息补贴你们觉得合理吗"},{"start":10553.261,"end":10579.18,"text":"跟委員報告這一部分我們現在也在積極跟相關的部會積極的檢討因為我們是要給年輕人他的所得比較弱勢的得到所謂政府的補貼看起來是目前是有雖然比例不高但是它還是存在是 了解如果接下去的新西安貸款在七月就要到期了請問財政部現在的立場是什麼"},{"start":10580.022,"end":10607.892,"text":"目前我們現在在徵詢各相關單位的意見所以還會在新清安2.0嗎這個因為他可能不叫新清安2.0但是他會有一個新的政策是嗎這個這一部分我跟委員報告因為左院長已經有講說不會照舊的一直對舊的有缺失就要改善所以我們未來要怎麼用什麼方式來呈現我們現在在研議因為這兩年在新清安貸款裡面到"},{"start":10608.692,"end":10636.332,"text":"去年的年底竟然還是我們要求你們去清查之後發現有八千多件的違規案也就是他不是自己買自己租而是當人頭甚至還租給別人還去拿了利息補貼真的很離譜啊總共有八千多件八千多件比例來講也是不可小覷金額高達一億八千萬現在還在持續的清查嗎"},{"start":10637.432,"end":10662.57,"text":"對 我們現在進入第五波的清查沒錯 公營的行庫租出以前借了錢出去就不管了然後也不理了 只要收利息就好了現在的問題就是貸後的管理可能比借貸還要重要貸後的管理是要看它執行的狀況不能讓我們的年輕人淪為人頭尤其是很多人他是用心清安去套政府的利益"},{"start":10662.89,"end":10690.18,"text":"了解我希望可以繼續的清查然後每一個月可能都要給我們立委做一個回報好 沒問題這是第一點所以新清案的2.0在7月以後有可能會進行但是我們的中央銀行到現在為止還是不動產的第七波選擇性信用管制次長 這兩個政策我從上任到現在就在講說這是相當矛盾的"},{"start":10691.02,"end":10705.211,"text":"一個是希望大家都去買房子一個是希望大家都不要買房子那是怎樣了解我完全了解吳妍的意思所以我們這一次也召集相關的會議包括央行包括金管會包括內政部一起來聽聽"},{"start":10706.192,"end":10722.414,"text":"政府不要自己打自己左手打右手800萬的房子因為新青岸就炒到1000萬那現在又所謂的第七波選擇性信用管制到現在把房市整個停在這邊我沒有說對或不對但是政府的政策顯然是自相矛盾"},{"start":10723.075,"end":10738.353,"text":"如果我們又要鼓勵年輕人買房子又要選擇新信用管制讓人家在新千安那邊排隊該貸款的人貸不到不該貸款剛剛講的一大堆高所得的人貸得到這才是奇怪的這是一個很矛盾的現象而且跟央行的政策"},{"start":10738.914,"end":10768.514,"text":"也不一致啊是所以我們希望新清安未來新清安能夠真正幫到那些真的需要幫助的人是他應該讓房市恢復正常讓年輕人買得起房子而不是這邊在炒作房價那邊在做信用管制到最後該需要的拿不到最後變成剛剛講的高年齡的高所得的他反而他本身就是一個所謂的經濟優勢的人弱勢的人得不到幫助政府的政策自相矛盾"},{"start":10769.754,"end":10793.882,"text":"這部分我們會參考委員的意見我們納入考量是 我覺得這個矛盾的政策不應該再發生就算你要再補助年輕人購屋那用另外一套方法而不是用這種方式去做利息補貼然後又在這邊所謂的打壓房價造成年輕人根本就買不到房子是 我們這一部分一定會就相關的一些條件會做通盤的檢討沒錯 這邊炒高了房價誰買得到 買得到才有鬼"},{"start":10798.843,"end":10810.795,"text":"我在最近發現連我們大台北地區當然是黃金地段可是在新北市我們看到一個21坪的房子室內只有13坪一坪賣99萬2000多萬只能住到13坪這是一個政府不應該讓它發生的事情尤其我們有這麼多的偵測工具"},{"start":10820.598,"end":10830.817,"text":"我們要讓年輕人住到食餐坪的房子還要花兩千多萬去買這實在不太應該啦好嗎好 謝謝委員 請就好請 那是現在我請一下主計長請陳主計長"},{"start":10838.109,"end":10851.957,"text":"委員好主席長我想總預算到現在為止沒有付為其實有很重要的一個原因就是所謂景蕭的退伏還有軍人的加薪對吧你們到現在還是不願意編列這部分的預算嗎"},{"start":10853.018,"end":10877.567,"text":"因為它實在影響很大影響很大所以你沒錢所以你不編所以你不編你都知道現在走運站卡就卡在這兩條它涉及到的一個就是整個公教人員性質結構的一個不均衡還有包括身分之間的一個不平衡因為嘉興不是這樣的家主席長我跟你說現在地方政府預算都已經編完了對不對他們可能都審完了是嗎"},{"start":10879.349,"end":10905.45,"text":"大部分才化法的預算當時你也是依法編列然後他們也都依法編進去他們的預算裡的對嗎但是才化法的對不對有沒有編完了你的預算也編了他們的預算也編了他們的都通過了然後我們這邊還不確定然後因為這樣子卡折你們不附屬也不進行相關的程序主席長這就是一個超級大僵局重點是剛剛講的"},{"start":10906.651,"end":10929.136,"text":"警消的加薪還有所謂的軍人加薪這部分其實爭議不會只有在總預算而是整個國家體制行政院的態度是什麼今天剛剛這個題目今天的主題是如果這個總預算沒過的話地方政府會碰到什麼困難現在他們預算已經編完了我想問你他們要怎麼辦"},{"start":10931.357,"end":10946.376,"text":"這個部分如果說將來將來我們提醒事先所以他們不知道怎麼辦預算過了但不知道怎麼執行我們提醒事先還是所有事情都要等憲法法庭我們就辦理做調整所以以後的主計處也不用做事就是等憲法法庭就對了是嗎"},{"start":10946.98,"end":10969.392,"text":"不是沒有做事而是說我們都把各項的一個都精算好然後就是等著一個所以到今天現在這個moment你還是不知道怎麼解決是不是地方政府也不知道怎麼解決而是說這個部分必須要等到才是所以主席長你今天在這邊回答我就是說現在無解然後現在法庭解釋之前也無解是嗎"},{"start":10970.117,"end":10996.237,"text":"不是 我是覺得 我是建議就是也懇請懇請大院能夠把我們的預算能夠先行來打新興的計劃本來就可以送相關的申請案到立法院來如果真的有急迫性但是它也是到年底之後的事現在根本不會影響到相關的作業我想請問現在的狀況地方政府預算編列完畢他們如何執行還是全部都要從你的角度全部都要追加減"},{"start":10997.746,"end":11008.672,"text":"不是 以我們來講對於如果這個軍人的加薪的這個部分呢市縣的結果我們依照市縣的結果來調整好 時間暫停我請國防部的次長請徐副部長副部長我想剛剛聽到我們立法院幫軍人加薪所以主席處有意見所以到現在沒有已經停擺那這幾天我們看到委內瑞拉的局勢"},{"start":11027.318,"end":11042.045,"text":"美國去收買了總統委內瑞拉總統身邊的人所以他們採取了斬首行動那我們軍方不用被收買我們的軍方我們的馬祖防衛指揮部直接被炸團侵入部長"},{"start":11044.307,"end":11061.924,"text":"副部長我們現在的軍方裡面炸團每個月3000到5000塊代價就可以買到官兵的人頭賬戶涉案的超過60個人遭人頭賬戶的行為超過一年以上我們的部隊已經被炸團侵入了嗎"},{"start":11063.53,"end":11075.414,"text":"報告委員 這個我們已經去查處了一年以上耶六十多個人耶這只有馬祖嗎做了懲處了懲處了多少人 汰除了多少人報告這個具體的數字我們還在處理當中調查完畢了嗎"},{"start":11083.922,"end":11107.467,"text":"不知道還在進行今天我們要討論的就是如果我們的國軍不要說變成共諜啦三千塊五千塊人家花五千萬美金去買通啊我們這邊花三千塊五千塊就可以買到我們的國軍的官兵這實在是一件很可怕的事第二個這些相關的人他都說他在營內營外都有借貸行為"},{"start":11108.207,"end":11120.599,"text":"在軍隊裡面我們對於官兵個人的行為甚至他的生活狀況有所了解然後他的接待行為在軍營裡面長官都清楚嗎這些事情我們有在管理嗎"},{"start":11121.434,"end":11147.929,"text":"有 我們會有一些相關的行為在不侵犯到個人隱私的情況底下我們會跟官兵做相關的所以我剛剛講的我們立法院為什麼要幫軍人加薪因為有很多人他的薪資他的確是在相對現在物價高漲的情況下我們希望軍人受到一定的保障所以軍人加薪我希望國防部的立場是去爭取而不是抵抗 好嗎"},{"start":11148.869,"end":11172.76,"text":"包委員我們關於官兵的我們也新辦了急難貸款這個新的方式所以要了解他們的生活狀況要了解他們的可能碰到的困難跟需求最重要的是不要讓他被外面的人侵入而我們自己不自知一年多六十個人三千塊五千塊就賣掉自己的帳戶他會不會因為這樣子而賣掉我們的國家安全"},{"start":11174.881,"end":11186.686,"text":"不是不可能副部長我想這個事情可能會比你做其他的事情更重要好嗎我們會嚴肅查處好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝黃委員接下來我們請郭育晴委員謝謝主席有請主席長請陳主席長"},{"start":11207.355,"end":11224.862,"text":"委員好 主席早安我想今天因為外圍的時間稍微比較短所以等一下我會問比較概括性的問題我想這個預算會期不省預算中央政府的一個總預算依舊在卡關其實這已經讓國家承受很大的一個風險"},{"start":11225.902,"end":11250.624,"text":"那想預算卡關它其實不是一個抽象的數字的問題而已喔那而是正在發生的一些國安的漏洞跟地方的一些建設的一些停擺喔那這些包含哪一些呢包含每個月大約有103萬的通勤族他們的TPAS有可能會受到很大的影響那另外呢還有公共托育的一些設施很多的爸爸媽媽也會受到影響小朋友也會受到影響"},{"start":11251.104,"end":11269.651,"text":"甚至有高中的學校要興建這也會受到影響我想問一下這個主席處就是115年的這個中央政府總預算到現在還沒有審查連一條都沒有依舊在卡關那請問我們現在是不是只能夠依照暫行的預算來支應來做執行"},{"start":11271.912,"end":11297.722,"text":"那這樣子的一個狀況其實已經涉及到了像國安 科技 防災基礎建設等等的一些經費我們都是用最低的限度來做支應是這樣嗎是 那新增的部分有1017億那這個部分不能執行那其中TBUS它也算新增TBUS它是以前編載前瞻所以現在改編載總預算它列為新增所以這個也影響到交通組的一個"},{"start":11298.382,"end":11327.019,"text":"一個那個權益那再來就是說所謂的無人載具還有台灣品牌賽事精選計畫這些新增的部分都會影響還有一個北回之巔的一個旗艦計畫這個部分是補助花蓮嘉義台南屏東這些縣市的一些景觀服務的一個設施的優化還有一個高雄和屏東間的兩條快速道路的這一個部分這個也是受到影響那當然還有一個縣市河川的一個治水計畫"},{"start":11327.779,"end":11350.767,"text":"那这个治水计划他就是分四年要1000亿那今年编了145亿这个也是严重影响到地方了那还有一个我们就是直辖市里面编列300多亿的一个要补助限制就是有关财政收支化文化修正以后受到影响没有办法弥补的这个部分所以这个部分大概都会有一个受到影响"},{"start":11351.647,"end":11365.816,"text":"剛剛委員講的部件公共化拖曳設施沒錯雖然不是每個縣市都有但是還是有一些縣市都是受到影響的接下來我想請教一下財政部請財政部的是哪位好 次長好"},{"start":11370.953,"end":11398.61,"text":"好 次郎早安我想這個對地方政府來講這個中央預算卡關其實代表的就是工程的延宕那再來有可能是勞工跟廠商款項要延後那甚至地方建設也可能會縮首目前因為這個部分請問財政部有沒有收穫到所謂的這個地方政府他們反映實際的一些困境那到底這筆賬這個地方的建設因此停擺這個賬要算在誰的頭上"},{"start":11400.298,"end":11420.546,"text":"目前因為這一部分是屬於稅出所以稅出基本上它反映不會跟我們財政部反映應該是會跟主席總署來反映是 所以剛剛其實我們主席長已經講得非常非常多了我想這個地方政府應該也都收到了這個非常的諷刺我們在這個地方其實該省預算不省預算預算會期不省預算剛剛其實我一早就來到立法院我就聽到有許多人"},{"start":11427.008,"end":11432.856,"text":"在為所謂的軍人加薪那接下來我想請教一下這個國防部副部長好來請徐副部長好"},{"start":11441.523,"end":11461.576,"text":"是 我剛剛聽到很多的這個國民黨的委員或者是這個黃珊珊委員也都提到所謂的這個軍人加薪的部分那我想大家都已經忽略掉了因為在2025年就是去年的4月1號我們的志願役的勤務加級其實已經有3000到5000的一個勤務的加級"},{"start":11462.256,"end":11489.623,"text":"再來包含戰鬥部隊的加擠也有4000到7000的這樣子的一個加擠這是在現行制度當中的一個待遇的一個調整它是由行政院來擬定而且並且實施執行那大家可能又忘記了一件事情這2024年的1月這個軍公教條幅3%到4%是通盤的調薪這個部分我的資訊有沒有落差"},{"start":11491.981,"end":11504.124,"text":"向委員報告是國防部財政署長近幾年來的確我們政府以及國防部對於軍人的薪資待遇來講都是非常關心的分別在111年調整了3%113年調整了4%在去年也就是114年也分別整體調薪了3%"},{"start":11512.546,"end":11537.753,"text":"那除了剛剛委員所講的在去年五項加擠及資源加擠之外國防部還是持續滾動式的在檢討我們國防部所屬的各項加擠那對於這個軍人待遇的這個關係是不遺餘力的那有關這個軍人待遇條例的三萬塊的部分那這一方面的調整我們還是必須國防部必須基於行政一體的原則那等待事件結果之後才能來辦理"},{"start":11538.533,"end":11564.411,"text":"好 我想這個前一陣子我們的中共才軍演 中共軍演我們面對這個中共軍演 大家都講的話都講得很好聽但是我再次強調 預算會期就是要審預算那審預算是立法院的責任這是立法院的責任但是現在是不審不排不表決這本身對於我們的國家安全還有地方的建設有很大的一個傷害所以再次的呼籲所有藍白的委員"},{"start":11565.371,"end":11579.276,"text":"這個政治是可以競爭但是不能用拖垮國家的這樣子的一個預算來當作自己的政治籌碼好 以上 謝謝主席好 謝謝市長好 謝謝 謝謝郭委員接下來我們請鄭天才委員好 謝謝"},{"start":11611.284,"end":11621.853,"text":"好 主席有请国防部副部长我们请徐副部长各位好"},{"start":11622.746,"end":11647.726,"text":"副部長好今天你的報告裡面特別提到國防是國家安全的基石沒有堅強的國防實力國家安全就會面臨挑戰當然這裡面你除了提到軍備軍備相關的經費之外也有提到軍人的部分"},{"start":11651.779,"end":11678.23,"text":"這個照顧官兵當然非常非常的重要請問一下 我們先談這個照顧官兵這個是延續性的計畫還是新增的計畫委員好 我是組織局局長有關調整各級部隊基本維持訂額業務費它是持續性的案子但是這個額度是115年比114年增加的額度好 這個副部長"},{"start":11680.649,"end":11707.235,"text":"持续性的计划按照预算法的规定预算立法院还没通过照样可以执行这是第一个但新增的额度就没办法第二预算法第54条总预算案之审议如不能依第51条期限完成时各机关预算之执行依下列规定为之"},{"start":11708.274,"end":11735.752,"text":"第二支出的部分新興資本支出及新增計劃有個但書很重要但依第88條規定辦理或經立法院同意者不在此限如果真的那麼重要就請國防部依預算法第54條送立法院同意好不好我們就接下來談"},{"start":11740.822,"end":11768.256,"text":"作為國軍 國防部當然這個我們副部長不是軍人出身不是但是你是台大政治系畢業也去國外念了這個協會所以依法行政很重要尤其是國軍國軍每一個人 每一個軍人"},{"start":11770.495,"end":11798.729,"text":"尤其是國防部的法例立國家所通過的跟軍人有關的法例就是要執行要遵守不然的話整個軍力軍人的紀律就會受到嚴重的影響114年6月10號立法院商讀通過軍人待遇條例憲法徵修條文這個你很熟悉的條文"},{"start":11799.858,"end":11825.472,"text":"第三條第二項行政院如果認為這個立法院決議的法例案有自愛難行的時候就要送立法院提復議請問一下副部長行政院有沒有針對軍人待遇條例送立法院提復議潘委員他現在是行政院是依憲政的精神提出了釋憲"},{"start":11828.53,"end":11856.688,"text":"我问的是有没有提复议有没有送立法院提复议不敢回答目前是没有提复议但是他提出了事件不是目前已经超过时间了十天之内就要提复议了没有关系这个我们就讲实话没有提复议没有提复议就表示没有自爱难行这个是基本法律的解释条文的解释就是如此"},{"start":11857.759,"end":11875.011,"text":"好 接下來修正軍人待遇條例第五條條文114年6月27號公佈施行總統公佈施行總統公佈施行之前還請了國防部部長顧立雄簽署親自簽名"},{"start":11884.386,"end":11912.478,"text":"行政院院長 卓榮泰院長也親自簽名前面沒有治安難行所以沒有重力法院服役第二 也附屬了表示沒有問題 同意然後公佈施行依照中央法規標準法這個以前你在大學都念過公佈就生效了公佈就生效了"},{"start":11914.065,"end":11938.979,"text":"所以作為副部長尤其是國防部部長又是法律出身 律師出身就應該去簽這個行政院最起碼你要把預算書一 就能帶一條例第五條包括相關的條文第六條"},{"start":11941.428,"end":11967.169,"text":"都應該要送到組織總署組織總署不同意那是組織總署的責任你有送嗎 國防部有沒有送報告委員 我們基於行政議題的原則我了解 你已經提過這個很多次了最後一分鐘 抱歉一定要讓副部長知道志願役的士兵實領的薪資"},{"start":11969.623,"end":11997.699,"text":"平均薪資你看上等兵 一等兵 二等兵就這麼多 失望多他每天住在營區裡面在營區裡面沒有加班費的你想想看勞工基本薪資勞工的薪資狀況2025年平均經常性薪資四萬七千多了比我們的國軍還多何況這是2025年"},{"start":11999.332,"end":12022.428,"text":"明年2026年基本工資就會增加3萬塊了超過3萬塊了所以沒有好的軍人沒有足夠的軍人你再有好的裝備誰來操作所以這個部分一定要去欠去欠行政院院長趕快把這個"},{"start":12025.913,"end":12052.059,"text":"必須能帶條例來最佳預算 好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝鄭委員接下來我們請黃國昌委員來 謝謝主席馬上有請國防部的副部長台委會的政務副主任委員"},{"start":12053.591,"end":12080.242,"text":"請徐副部長張副主委市委好先請教一下海委會的政務副主任委員委員好今年主委去年應該是去年因為現在已經2026了2025年主委的特別費有多少錢"},{"start":12082.519,"end":12098.37,"text":"一整年嗎當然啊30萬左右是不是309,660元是他總共花了多少錢今年度已經全部用完沒有剩餘所以309,660元花得乾乾淨淨是嗎是特別費夠不夠啊"},{"start":12108.378,"end":12131.382,"text":"跟委員報告我們特別使用都是用在公務上面有關的部分所以這個部用在什麼公務上吃喝玩樂啊跟委員報告他來來來來來這邊是有一個我秀給大家看啦我秀給大家看海洋委員會主任委員114年度特別費每月之用二月用了一萬二"},{"start":12137.446,"end":12165.752,"text":"三月用了一萬八四月用了一萬一一路用到十一月都還有節制到最後一個月預算給你三十萬九千六百六十元這特別費怎麼可以省最後一個月十萬一千元花得乾乾淨淨一毛不剩從一月到十一月"},{"start":12167.096,"end":12187.395,"text":"花的剩下的趕快消化預算趕快消化預算最後一個月納稅人給的特別費千萬不要浪費花到一毛不剩最後一個月12月把它花得乾乾淨淨副主委一年特別費多少錢"},{"start":12192.974,"end":12198.158,"text":"副主委一年特別費多少錢花了多少沒有剩餘一樣嘛 花得乾乾淨淨的嘛一樣啊 花得乾乾淨淨的啊"},{"start":12217.284,"end":12244.491,"text":"去年啊可能特別費只砍60%啊還砍得太客氣了最後一個月錢一定要花完納稅人給的特別費怎麼可以浪費我一定要花得乾乾淨淨一毛不剩請問跑去做什麼事情請問跑去做什麼事情餐費 等一下等一下你要澄清你去開記者會啦"},{"start":12246.601,"end":12270.915,"text":"我現在是站在人民的立場啊人民看不下去啊中共軍演多嚴重的事情啊全民戒備全民戒備結果你們海委會跑去哪裡高雄荊崎超級包廂孔雀町紅寶町發票開出來多少錢"},{"start":12276.127,"end":12303.594,"text":"發票開出來多少錢七萬多是七萬三千六百九十三元嗎是一桌多少錢因為他總共有五桌所以一桌多少錢大概一萬多一萬多多少我數學不好啦那家餐廳的價格我就去打聽過了啦"},{"start":12305.649,"end":12330.134,"text":"七萬三千六百九十三元開五桌一桌多少錢怎麼算的我請你們提供資料你們就提供給我一個lump sum的數字我對數字很敏感的啦這七萬三千六百九十三元是怎麼吃的一桌多少錢"},{"start":12332.657,"end":12353.09,"text":"因為你們報上來的價格跟這個餐廳的價格就不太一樣我在講說這個餐廳是因為要慰勞我們海委會的弟兄所以有特別打折是不是我質詢不浪費時間會後詳細的明細交上來可不可以"},{"start":12354.918,"end":12364.744,"text":"我們會再提問給委員會再提問給委員但是我這邊可不可以說明一下我要明細可不可以可以但是我可不可以跟委員報告說明一下來 請國防部副部長"},{"start":12367.799,"end":12385.132,"text":"跟委員報告 我們這邊所有的資用都是按照相關的經費來支用所以沒問題黃委員因為質詢時間只有5分鐘所以時間到了是不是對 時間已經到了好 沒有關係 我尊重謝謝好 謝謝黃委員接下來我們請林思明召委"},{"start":12395.475,"end":12406.922,"text":"好 謝謝主席我先請主席長請我們海委會張副主委以及國防部副部長待會兒你待會兒好 那先請陳主席長"},{"start":12408.203,"end":12425.142,"text":"好 主席長我想首先我要強調在野黨沒有不審總預算最近包含賴總統 行政院 卓院長還有執政黨一直對外放話說總預算卡關是因為在野黨的杯葛封殺"},{"start":12427.324,"end":12449.616,"text":"賴清德總統更是超越憲法表示總預算要在12月31號前審查完卷所以主席長請問你過去十餘年來從102年到去年立法院審查總預算我想包含我們民進黨完全執政的時期每一年的總預算都是在12月31號前審查完卷嗎不一定"},{"start":12453.499,"end":12481.065,"text":"不是不一定 根本就我現在我已經把這個表格做給你看都沒有過去10年102 103 104除了105年以外103年度就是12月19通過公告是在1月14號但是它通過的時候就是12月19我想時間的關係我想我表格做很清楚給你看了"},{"start":12482.338,"end":12499.394,"text":"就是幾乎是都很少是在這個過去十年幾個年度都很少在12月31前審查完畢所以我要在這邊強調我要再次的強調在野黨從來沒有不說不審總預算"},{"start":12501.394,"end":12528.351,"text":"是 我們也懇請委員把這個總預算盡快來審查我想這個癥結點剛才好幾位委員也講過了其實包含國民黨團也再次多次的公開表態只要行政院依立法院三讀通過的法律來編列總預算包含軍人加薪 錦銷退休的保障以及執行停侃年金立法院就會去審查預算"},{"start":12529.844,"end":12544.279,"text":"所以主席長 我想請問你行政院這樣選擇性的不附屬不執行法律是不是因為三讀通過的法律都是在野黨的版本基於政治立場的不同行政院就不附屬 不想編"},{"start":12545.438,"end":12571.533,"text":"不是我要跟委員報告這三個法案它整個的影響非常的重大包括你停卡年金那將來要負擔的部分非常的多然後第二個就是說軍人加薪的部分還有包括公教人員那停卡年金這個部分它涉及到年改往回投入去走那這個整個制度的一個改變影響非常的重大也非常巨大包括我們的財政的任性都沒辦法"},{"start":12571.813,"end":12598.411,"text":"你現在講的當然講的原因剛才回答委員說這些都很複雜你也這樣講但是我們講就是一個很簡單的道理立法院三讀通過的法律行政院可以凌駕於立法院之上對立法院三讀通過的法律去不執行嗎站在你是一個主計長的立場你從法律的角度去解讀因為我是一個法律人我非常尊重制度"},{"start":12599.693,"end":12613.687,"text":"行政院可以这样子去凌驾立法院吗这是我们所不愿意的我们所不愿意的但是因为我们也不得不说要先去要来申请事宪事宪后再来决定执行"},{"start":12616.189,"end":12630.21,"text":"所以我想我還是要呼籲主席總書依法行政才是王道 才是王道好 那罪長你請回現在請我們海委會副主委張副主委"},{"start":12631.748,"end":12659.59,"text":"委員好副主委 是我想上週中國的環台軍演海巡署是否也有派出海巡部隊與船隻參與協防有 我們總共派了14艘的艦船艇還有94艘的預備艇這都有嗎海巡署也是有參與整個協防嗎但是我們跟國防部有分工就是國防部隊軍艦我們隊海警船好 是所以"},{"start":12661.007,"end":12671.879,"text":"在12月31號我想你本人或者主委還有幾位副署長都有出席高雄的參會參加這個參會外界我想大家多所批評"},{"start":12673.413,"end":12694.345,"text":"大家對於這場參會都很嘩然 非常的訝異怎麼海巡署在對岸軍演的時期竟然會這樣沒有去緊盯整個軍演的一個過程掌握實際的狀況竟然跑去吃飯"},{"start":12696.008,"end":12712.969,"text":"這件事我想很多人都有所質疑啦所以這個我想直接請問那個副主委你們的判斷是什麼為什麼你們不去緊盯整個軍演的狀況而跑去吃飯你們的判斷是什麼我這邊特別跟委員說明那中共是在29號的7點發布"},{"start":12715.251,"end":12733.221,"text":"我們在當下就成立應變中心來做應變然後30號開始他們就所謂的他們要做實彈射擊他們兩波次的9點跟下午的1點然後結束以後他們在6點鐘30到6點鐘他們就宣布整個任務達成"},{"start":12736.442,"end":12754.75,"text":"我們當下在六點三十分的時候當天的三十分所有的軍艦包括海警船都已經離開我們的限制水域在晚上的九點半我們做整體評估是由個人直接跟主委建議說會議是可以照常舉行的"},{"start":12755.71,"end":12772.343,"text":"接下來隔天的早上5點半我們再做整體的評估所有的艦船艇都已經離開我們軍艦的巡防艦的雷達的監控範圍所以是可以舉行是沒有問題的另外一部分跟委員包括海巡組從111年到"},{"start":12774.585,"end":12794.913,"text":"上一次我們已經整整的應對了七次的中共軍演那我們海巡組是一個訓練有素的一個整個在指揮體系跟這個整個勤務不中斷的情況下他是整個一個團隊的合作部分不是靠個人所以整個可以去吃飯是由"},{"start":12796.593,"end":12820.183,"text":"誰來決定 是主委決定還是說是你剛才提到了是你本人評估你評估之後告訴主委特別跟委員報告是由我們很清楚是由我本人來做整個評估然後是可以決定但是我想媒體上有很多的誤解就是當天的參會當天參會是整個會議過程的公務行程之一沒有飲酒也沒有唱歌也沒有什麼都沒有"},{"start":12820.723,"end":12847.969,"text":"回來以後我們所有的主管都還是回到這個有沒有唱歌有沒有飲酒這個不是重點重點是說對岸在軍演還沒有結束那你就認為說不會有突發狀況發生幸好是沒有了假設有的話我想你們真的全部要辭職下台所以我是認為說我想外界這麼多批評我是不曉得你有沒有去虛心的檢討"},{"start":12849.734,"end":12878.334,"text":"對於外界的批評我們會整個做細心檢討也會做持續不斷的精進會檢討嘛但是這邊要特別跟委員報告還有跟國人報告這個整個狀況都在海巡署跟國軍的掌控之下我們是有能力掌握所有周邊海域的狀況我們也有能力去處理應對中國大陸的灰帶洗澡那我這邊要特別跟委員說明全世界的Costco大概只有台灣的海巡署是面對中國海警灰色"},{"start":12879.675,"end":12907.66,"text":"最有經驗的到目前現在在金門還是一樣最後請教你不要再講了那12月31號是不是還是上班日你們有放假嗎它是整個會議是一個公務行程的延續去吃飯是公務行程喔你認為這是公務行程喔所以你這根本就太鬆散了啦對岸軍演耶你跟我講說公務行程包含吃飯去聚餐"},{"start":12909.611,"end":12924.728,"text":"我想這個講來講去你們還是沒有虛心檢討了各位我們以後會持續檢討精進你如果要持續檢討精進你是不是可以提出一個書面報告給我們因為時間的關係我希望你們真的要提出一個很虛心檢討的一個報告針對外界對你們的批評"},{"start":12930.313,"end":12941.248,"text":"對於一個外界的批評我們都會虛心的檢討跟接受另外一部分就是我們還是要特別跟國人報告海巡署是一個訓練有所專業的部隊署長 你請回我請光部 徐副部長"},{"start":12947.797,"end":12966.788,"text":"我又好邱部長是國軍志願役的人力流是非常嚴重依照媒體的報導一百一十五年國軍志願役的人員的預算額僅剩十五萬三千九百六十五人役一百一十四年的十六萬零七百四十九人相較拒減了六千七百八十四人"},{"start":12967.808,"end":12988.038,"text":"行同一年列又增發了兩個聯兵旅若與一百一十三年的十六萬六千兩百三十五人相較更大減了一萬兩千七百七十人所以副部長剛才你回答羅明財委員表示說自願意的預算源是機密不能回答委員但媒體都已經有所報導了"},{"start":12989.747,"end":13015.525,"text":"這是怎麼一回事啊不能跟委員說卻可以讓媒體來披露這是機密嗎預算原額和編制限原是不一樣的概念編制原額限原原額是機密預算原額不是機密預算原額不是機密所以你剛才羅民財委你好像沒有跟他講很清楚他就問你說現在目前我們的預算原額是多少啊"},{"start":13017.931,"end":13046.441,"text":"你說這是機密 你就不回答他我沒有說預算原額是機密我說編制跟現原是機密編制的是機密預算原額是可以講的好 那我就問你為什麼我們現在預算原額的回答就是預算原額的流失那麼嚴重志願役的人才流失那麼嚴重國防部有調查主要的原因是什麼這一段向委員報告由於近年少子化以及社會增財的結果"},{"start":13047.521,"end":13075.591,"text":"少子化近三年來都是持續那國軍的待遇這個普遍大家認為低薪是不是一個重要的原因 優因不足這是不是一個重要的原因我想這跟整體社會的增才以及少子化有絕大的因素因為根據我們的推估近三年來人力就持續下降所以在國軍所以你認為跟待遇沒有關係並不是沒有關係可是並不是絕對的影響"},{"start":13076.741,"end":13083.137,"text":"那你贊不贊成我們立法院三讀通過的這個軍人待遇條例中修法把軍人加薪"},{"start":13084.545,"end":13100.692,"text":"這個當然謝謝大院對於國軍薪資待遇的關心那麼我想你把態度做出來你們贊不贊成你告訴我不要再講其他的你回答我贊不贊成我身為職業諮詢人本身我當然是是贊成嘛我當然是願意其實我要告訴國防部其實包含執政黨的立委也對軍人加薪沒有反對"},{"start":13107.475,"end":13134.022,"text":"我覺得國防部要把態度做出來你要支持軍人加薪才會吸引更多的人才來加入國軍好不好是的請你們把態度做出來好 以上好 謝謝謝謝林思銘召委接下來我們請侯孟楷委員侯孟楷委員侯孟楷委員不在場下一位林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員不在場接下來我們請葉元芝委員"},{"start":13150.238,"end":13152.367,"text":"麻煩請那個海巡署署長請張副主委"},{"start":13166.97,"end":13185.585,"text":"張副主委你好這一次中共軍演他其實也在測試海警船對台灣進行的壓迫所以海巡署扮演非常關鍵的角色12月31號海巡署一堆人跑去吃飯剛剛我聽到副主委跟其他委員打詢感覺還陣陣有詞"},{"start":13188.007,"end":13216.974,"text":"幾件事情第一個在軍演的時候我看到一篇新聞報導是一個跑民進黨的記者寫的他說國安官員說早在中共軍演的上個星期就已經掌握了中共有可能會在29號30那幾天軍演為什麼呢因為有看到共軍特定的船艦海警船穿梭宮古海峽南下進到台灣的東部沿海所以就已經掌握了"},{"start":13217.779,"end":13234.749,"text":"代表說29號的上個星期就是12月22號到26號嘛那個時候就已經知道了中共可能會軍演這是郭安仁士說的我請問一下副主委你們有得到消息嗎中共可能會在29號這個時候軍演嗎"},{"start":13237.375,"end":13260.114,"text":"跟委員報告那所有的狀況還沒狀況我們都是有掌握你們都要掌握喔今天大家不是說你們能不能夠去吃飯耶是為什麼一定要在軍演的那個時候去吃飯啊那家公司要倒了嗎還是那天有優惠還是怎麼樣 晚幾天吃會怎麼樣非要在軍演的當日去吃"},{"start":13261.317,"end":13288.337,"text":"所以你們老早就知道那個時候要軍演你們還跑去吃到底是什麼決定啊我看到海巡署還對媒體講說這個牽涉到餐飲業要事前準備哇賽 海巡署這麼貼心喔這麼站在餐飲業的角度喔怕他們準備的食材浪費所以非要在軍演的時候去吃飯這是你們對媒體回答的態度耶人家入軍都可以取消餐會為什麼你們不可以"},{"start":13289.895,"end":13318.274,"text":"跟委員報告那我們要確定要舉辦這個會議的根據是我們根據前一天所有的海域狀況的這個評估沒有你們事實上我有看到管碧玲主委回答啦她說呢因為中共是宣布29號到30號軍演而已嘛你們是31號吃嘛哇賽這麼相信中共喔這麼相信她喔事實上是31號才結束啊"},{"start":13320.233,"end":13342.856,"text":"多了一天啊所以你們喊徐完全不當一回事啊然後管主委的說法跟她的老公她老公前兩天幫她出來講話說難道軍演不結束沒有宣布我們都不要吃飯了嗎管主委講的是說軍演兩天所以隔天的可以吃她老公是說那如果沒有宣布結束都不要吃了嗎我覺得"},{"start":13344.045,"end":13363.658,"text":"吃飯是一回事啦吃飯當然有很多檢討的地方在這個時間點吃飯你們事後對媒體回答那種無所謂的態度會讓人家看不下去跟委員報告我們沒有所謂的無所謂的你們的回答就是連牽涉到餐飲業要事前準備食材的你都講出來了"},{"start":13365.97,"end":13385.439,"text":"那我想請教一下你們總共吃了七萬多塊嘛剛剛聽其他委員問是吃了七萬多塊嘛是那七萬多塊都吃了什麼就一般餐廳的一般餐廳的什麼七萬總共五桌 它是桌餐總共多少人去吃是海巡署的四級機關人數多少"},{"start":13388.484,"end":13409.663,"text":"有五桌五桌人數總共多少嘛一桌是五個人十個人大概是五十個因為還有國海運跟海保署所以總共多少人嘛大概有四十幾位左右四十幾位左右四十幾位是四十位還是四十九位這個議題大家都在討論你們都沒有資料包委很抱歉因為沒有時間沒有準備到"},{"start":13415.529,"end":13443.622,"text":"所以是四十幾位四十幾位然後七萬多塊就是一般的桌菜我覺得這個問題其實凸顯了海巡好像對這個軍演是非常不重視包括事後的回答都是一樣真的如果說抗中保台路線是民進黨主打的話海巡這樣的態度會讓國人非常的憂心真的非常擔心那我請問請國防部好不好"},{"start":13446.35,"end":13470.265,"text":"徐副部長因為時間關係我就直接講了因為在年初的時候你們有發布一個紓困的貸款當時是說因為怕軍中士兵他們欠錢然後被人家用利誘方式變成共諜所以推出這個措施就希望解決共諜的問題或者是不要讓他們陷入詐騙集團的陷阱 對吧"},{"start":13470.965,"end":13491.793,"text":"但現在這兩天推出之後 惡評如潮啦我很快講一下 再三十秒就好很多人在反映啦 他說第一個你還要找保人嘛你保人還要找軍中同階以上的或者是公教人員不然的話就是要裁立證明他們講說這很難找保人誰要幫忙保這個"},{"start":13492.95,"end":13516.3,"text":"然後第二個就是如果是信用評分要在601分以下的申請貸款還要再打折我只是點出這個問題你們這個制度很可能會理想跟現實會產生很大的落差因為很多士兵你在網路上面講了如果按照你們這個條件去銀行貸就好了也不需要跟軍中申請紓困達不到你想要解決的問題"},{"start":13518.804,"end":13535.443,"text":"先短回答報委員 我是主席局局長我回應一下剛剛委員針對這個議題這個急難貸款沒錯 我們設計的目標就是能夠幫助官兵解決一些急難的狀況剛剛所提到的保人這些問題我可能要跟委員報告因為這個錢是公款公款我除了要給"},{"start":13537.105,"end":13554.258,"text":"官兵能夠解決他的問題同時我要確保公款的安全所以我必須在一定的額度以上的時候我要設計一個保人的制度確保我的款項帶出去的時候還是可以收回來但是我現在方便官兵我們設計了10萬塊以下他可以免保人的方式對 我知道我知道 就是"},{"start":13554.898,"end":13570.993,"text":"只是提醒一下你這個制度有可能理想跟現實有很大的落差啦當然我知道你是要保護公款這個我們不會希望公款拿不回來只是說你的目的如果是想要解決剛剛講的那些問題的話這個制度太嚴格可能達不到目標謝謝謝謝葉委員"},{"start":13575.549,"end":13600.334,"text":"今日登記發言委員均與詢答完畢本次會議做如下決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一周內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者重新鎖定三本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入記錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理好散會"}]}},{"id":"166805","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166805","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b580178f3d1725b474aeeb09d831e702117c8636dcd6d4218d9a637cdb474afce8b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"12:01:27 - 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主席長 我想首先我要強調在野黨沒有不審總預算最近包含賴總統 行政院 卓院長還有執政黨一直對外放話說總預算卡關是因為在野黨的杯葛封殺"},{"start":31.333,"end":53.623,"text":"賴清德總統更是超越憲法表示總預算要在12月31號前審查完卷所以主席長請問你過去十餘年來從102年到去年立法院審查總預算我想包含我們民進黨完全執政的時期每一年的總預算都是在12月31號前審查完卷嗎不一定"},{"start":57.509,"end":62.67,"text":"不是不一定我已經把這個表格做給你看都沒有過去10年102、103、104除了105年以外103年度就是12月19通過公告是在1月14號但是它通過的時候就是12月19我想時間的關係我想我表格做很清楚給你看了"},{"start":86.348,"end":103.404,"text":"就是幾乎是都很少是在這個過去十年幾個年度都很少在12月31前審查完畢所以我要在這邊強調我要再次的強調在野黨從來沒有不說不審總預算"},{"start":105.544,"end":132.378,"text":"我們也懇請委員把這個總預算盡快來審查我想這個癥結點剛才好幾位委員也講過了其實包含國民黨團也再次多次的公開表態只要行政院依立法院三讀通過的法律來編列總預算包含軍人加薪 錦銷退休的保障以及執行停侃年金立法院就會去審查預算"},{"start":133.854,"end":148.287,"text":"所以主席長我想請問你行政院這樣選擇性的不附屬不執行法律是不是因為三讀通過的法律都是在野黨的版本基於政治立場的不同行政院就不附屬不想編"},{"start":149.468,"end":175.543,"text":"不是我要跟委員報告這三個法案它整個的影響非常的重大包括你停卡年金那將來要負擔的部分非常的多然後第二個就是說居能加薪的部分還有包括公教人員那停卡年金這個部分它涉及到年改往回投入去走那這個整個制度的一個改變影響非常的重大也非常巨大包括我們的財政的任性都沒辦法"},{"start":175.823,"end":202.422,"text":"你現在講的當然講的原因剛才回答委員說這些都很複雜你也這樣講但是我們講就是一個很簡單的道理立法院三讀通過的法律行政院可以凌駕於立法院之上對立法院三讀通過的法律去不執行嗎站在你是一個主機長的立場你從法律的角度去解讀因為我是一個法律人我非常尊重制度"},{"start":203.704,"end":217.698,"text":"行政院可以这样去凌驾立法院吗这是我们所不愿意的但是因为我们也不得不说要先请要来申请释宪释宪后再来决定执行"},{"start":220.2,"end":234.213,"text":"所以我想我還是要呼籲主席總書依法行政才是王道好 那罪長你請回現在請我們海委會副主委張副主委"},{"start":235.775,"end":263.613,"text":"委員好副主委 是我想上週中國的環台軍演海巡署是否也有派出海巡部隊與船隻參與協防有 我們總共派了14艘的艦船艇還有94艘的預備艇這都有嗎海巡署也是有參與整個協防但是我們跟國防部有分工就是國防部隊軍艦 我們隊海警船好 是所以"},{"start":265.037,"end":275.886,"text":"在12月31號我想你本人或者主委還有幾位副署長都有出席高雄的參會參加這個參會外界我想大家多所批評"},{"start":277.423,"end":298.354,"text":"大家對於這場參會都很嘩然、非常的訝異,怎麼海巡署在對岸軍演的時期竟然會這樣沒有去緊盯整個軍演的一個過程,掌握實際的狀況,竟然跑去吃飯。"},{"start":300.035,"end":316.988,"text":"這件事我想很多人都有所質疑啦所以這個我想直接請問你們的判斷是什麼為什麼你們不去緊盯整個軍演的狀況而跑去吃飯這邊特別跟委員說明那中共是在29號的7點發布"},{"start":319.27,"end":337.247,"text":"我們在當下就成立應變中心來做應變然後30號開始他們就所謂的他們要做實彈射擊他們兩波次的9點跟下午的1點然後結束以後他們在6點鐘30到6點鐘他們就宣布整個任務達成"},{"start":340.47,"end":358.245,"text":"我們當下在六點三十分的時候當天的三十分所有的軍艦包括海警船都已經離開我們的限制水域在晚上的九點半我們做整體評估是由個人直接跟主委建議說會議是可以照常舉行的"},{"start":359.366,"end":376.355,"text":"那接下來隔天的早上五點半我們再做整體的評估那所有的艦船艇都已經離開我們軍艦的那個巡防艦的雷達的監控範圍所以是可以舉行是沒有問題的另外部分跟委員包括海巡組從111年到"},{"start":378.616,"end":398.939,"text":"上一次我們已經整整的應對了7次的中共軍演那我們很清楚是一個訓練有素的一個整個在指揮體系跟這個整個情務不中斷的情況下他是整個一個團隊的合作部分不是告個人所以整個可以去吃飯是由"},{"start":400.62,"end":424.193,"text":"誰來決定是主委決定還是說是你剛才提到了是你本人評估你評估之後告訴主委特別跟委員報告是由我們很清楚是由我本人來做整個評估然後是可以決定但是我想媒體上有很多的誤解就是當天的參會當天參會是整個會議過程的公務行程之一沒有飲酒也沒有唱歌也沒有什麼都沒有"},{"start":424.733,"end":452.01,"text":"回來以後我們所有的主管都還是回到這個有沒有唱歌有沒有飲酒這個不是重點啦重點是說對岸在軍演還沒有結束啊那你就認為說不會有突發狀況發生幸好是沒有啦假設有的話我想你們真的全部要辭職下台啦所以我是認為說我想外界這麼多批評啊我是不曉得你有沒有去虛心的檢討"},{"start":453.742,"end":482.968,"text":"對於外界的批評我們會整個做細心檢討也會做持續不斷的精進會檢討嘛但是這邊要特別跟委員報告還有跟國人報告這個整個狀況都在海巡署跟國軍的掌控之下我們是有能力掌握所有周邊海域的狀況我們也有能力去處理應對中國大陸的灰帶洗澡那我這邊要特別跟委員說明全世界的COSCO大概只有台灣的海巡署是面對中國海警灰色"},{"start":483.688,"end":511.688,"text":"最有經驗的到目前現在在金門還是一樣最後請教你不要再講了那12月31號是不是還是上班日你們有放假嗎它是整個會議是一個公務行程的延續去吃飯是公務行程喔你認為這是公務行程喔所以你這根本就太鬆散了啦對岸軍演欸你跟我講說公務行程包含吃飯去聚餐"},{"start":513.622,"end":528.728,"text":"我想這個講來講去你們還是沒有虛心檢討了公委報告我們以後會持續檢討精進你如果要持續檢討精進你是不是可以提出一個書面報告給我們因為時間的關係我希望你們真的要提出一個很虛心檢討的一個報告針對外界對你們的批評"},{"start":534.342,"end":546.029,"text":"對於一個外界的批評我們都會虛心的檢討跟接受另外一部分就是我們還是要特別跟國人報告海巡署是一個訓練有助專業的部隊署長您請回我請光部徐副部長"},{"start":554.046,"end":560.75,"text":"國軍志願役的人力流是非常嚴重 依照媒體的報導115年國軍志願役的人員的預算額僅剩153,965人役 114年的16749人相較 拒減了6784人"},{"start":571.818,"end":592.046,"text":"行同一年列又蒸發了兩個聯兵旅若與一百一十三年的十六萬六千兩百三十五人相較更大減了一萬兩千七百七十人所以副部長剛才你回答羅賓財務委員表示說自願意的預算源是機密不能回答委員但媒體都已經有所報導了"},{"start":593.757,"end":619.532,"text":"這是怎麼一回事啊 不能跟委員說 卻可以讓媒體來披露這是機密嗎預算原額和編制限原是不一樣的概念編制原額 限原原額是機密預算原額不是機密預算原額不是機密所以你剛才 羅民財委你好像沒有跟他講很清楚他就問你說現在目前我們的預算原額是多少啊"},{"start":621.941,"end":650.299,"text":"你說這是機密 你就不回答他我沒有說預算原額是機密我說編制跟現原是機密編制的是機密 預算原額是可以講的好 那我就問你為什麼我們現在預算原額的流失那麼嚴重志願役的人才流失那麼嚴重國防部有調查主要的原因是什麼這一段像委員報告由於近年少子化以及社會增財的結果"},{"start":651.52,"end":679.615,"text":"所以近三年來都是持續好 那國軍的待遇這個普遍大家認為低薪嘛是不是一個重要的原因優因不足啊這是不是一個重要的原因我想這跟整體社會的增才以及少子化有絕大的因素因為根據我們的推估近三年來人力就持續下降所以在國軍所以你認為跟待遇沒有關係並不是沒有關係可是並不是絕對的影響"},{"start":680.932,"end":687.137,"text":"你贊不贊成我們立法院三讀通過的軍人待遇條例中修法把軍人加薪"},{"start":688.555,"end":710.888,"text":"這個當然謝謝大院對於國軍薪資待遇的關心你把態度做出來 你們贊不贊成 你告訴我不要再講其他的 你回答我贊不贊成我身為職業諮詢人本身 我當然是是贊成嘛我當然是願意 但是我還是要考慮到國家整體財政的平行其實包含執政黨的立委也對軍人加薪 沒有反對啊"},{"start":711.488,"end":733.228,"text":"我覺得國防部要把態度做出來你要支持軍人加薪嘛才會吸引更多的人才來加入國軍嘛好不好是的請你們把態度做出來啦好 以上好 謝謝謝謝林思銘召委接下來我們請侯孟楷委員侯孟楷委員侯孟楷委員不在場下一位林倩琦委員"}]}},{"id":"166782","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166782","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58c591df63454a0da53011a53eea80ce16aea507db77ca691819d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"09:53:19 - 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衛達三家流標比例非常的高"},{"start":177.196,"end":193.824,"text":"所以你們要取消這個三家投標的這樣子的一個限制那其實流標應該也有其他的因素存在比如說是不是這個利潤太低或者是工程技術性太高難度太高"},{"start":194.725,"end":217.868,"text":"導致的流標所以未必說跟這個三家合格廠商為什麼會為打三家去投標可能會有其他因素我們是不是也要去衡量考量我再補充一下剛講的說取消三家並不表示說只要一家來就一定要給他因為他還是有基本"},{"start":218.729,"end":232.645,"text":"資格或是他的履業能力的限制嘛那在我們的這個決標方法上面還有一種就是合格以後他才能進入到最低標所以不會說因為取消三家任何一家來都一定得標不是這個意思啦"},{"start":233.326,"end":250.195,"text":"第二個就是說這一次修改這個取消三家除了效率以外其實因為在實務上看到非常多的這一些廠商就是剛文有提到他事實上是為了符合三家來的那他可能因此會處罰"},{"start":251.796,"end":265.907,"text":"他可能会被刑罚处罚会被停权那时候我们实务上看到非常多的案例甚至是机关请他去找三家来的所以他们会在这些案子里面不断的伸冤"},{"start":266.647,"end":288.064,"text":"另外一個就是說現在的這個所謂要三家才能開標的話等於是說因為我是這個如果是我正常的廠商我沒有辦法擔保會不會有三家可是如果沒有三家來變成是我負擔流標的責任等於處罰這個合格的廠商所以有這樣綜合的一個考量所以不是單一的目標啦"},{"start":288.504,"end":316.37,"text":"是那剛剛副主委有提到就是說會有一些履約能力相關的一個考量那這個應該跟我們在第三個強化政府採購契約範本的拘束率裡面這邊會有一些的條件的一個列就是把它列出來列舉那這個部分的話會不會造成說另外一種維標 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中華民國國安部的網站也有寫這個內容有寫說由於國軍每年需求補充軍事官員的達一萬餘人"},{"start":97.833,"end":116.43,"text":"你們也寫在網站上面啊那不是縣緣編制委員這些都不是縣緣編制那他問你有多少軍人的時候他也不是問你什麼編制什麼他問你這裡有寫啊這個2025年11月12號台海軍情這是報導你看看國防部送到立法院的報告也寫啊編制啊"},{"start":120.175,"end":145.756,"text":"總額在馬英九總統任內21.5萬至今年為11年之久然後接著接著 這是公開資訊喔國防部的報告寫的喔編制已經接近23萬人這些都是公開資訊那個是編制 不是現原編制我知道 編線比我不一樣 我也知道齁我非常尊重親人 我來自金門喔我是最 來自一個最軍耐民民進軍的地方我是要 我是很好奇說你那時候沒有回答是因為它是國防機密還是說你不知道不是 因為現原編制是機密"},{"start":150.068,"end":158.033,"text":"這個部長 次長你好這個有一個問題我今天要詢問的是金門的這個問題你應該也很尊重軍人也很在乎軍人吧當然啊那沒問題啊那我們今天討論說因為這個預算沒有通過總預算沒過所以很多 剛剛很多比如中委員也講到說有很多什麼事情沒有辦法做嘛那你剛剛也說到這個戰鬥人員很多辛苦嘛好 你知道我們立法院三讀通過那個軍人加薪的這個法案你們知道嗎"},{"start":178.187,"end":179.916,"text":"是知道嗎那做了沒"},{"start":181.038,"end":200.009,"text":"報告委員 這件事情行政院現在有你不要管行政 國防部有沒有編啊我們是行政院的一部分啊你們是國防部 國防部有沒有編這個預算你們不編是不是我們要跟行政院同步 行政是一體的你不應該站在國防部的立場為軍人爭取權利嗎行政院如果不編 你不應該編嗎編了讓上面三邊有關係來你就是只聽上面的 不關心下面的喔我沒有不關心下面的委員你只聽行政院長不關心這個基層的官兵喔"},{"start":211.296,"end":222.902,"text":"你應該怎麼做 你站在國防部 站在軍人上你應該編進去 如果是行政把你刪掉我敬你是一條漢子什麼意思 老闆說不要編就不編然後軍人就 軍人這麼辛苦 剛剛說口聲說要照顧軍人就蓋編預算的時候因為老闆說不要編不編不是這個意思 報告委員不是這個意思"},{"start":230.697,"end":245.411,"text":"我們軍人當然要照顧 可是要跟整體的公務機關一起平衡那立法院都給你法源了嘛 你就編 編上去被行政院刪掉對不起 你已經全力為國防部的官兵爭取權益了"},{"start":246.465,"end":251.587,"text":"行政院刪掉 行政院不支持 那是行政院的考量嘛你站在為國軍弟兄的立場 你就應該幫國軍編進去不然我就會覺得你就是取誠喪義你了解嗎 因為有法源依據 不是沒有啊你編了被刪掉 被這個送到行政院會被刪掉那這個整體考量 你要站在國防部的立場 你要站在軍人的立場因為你是國防部 尤其是國防部的副部長"},{"start":271.758,"end":290.562,"text":"好來沒關係今天不是要跟你討論這個來金門的問題金門土地問題跟我們國安部有很大的關係國安部當時因為軍事強佔金門的這個土地金門人的土地用了以後沒有歸還給老百姓有的是歸還以後又有一些設施沒有拆有的是找不到人還直接交給國產署導致金門鄉親還要跟國產署要買要租"},{"start":295.269,"end":309.619,"text":"那這些東西本席借到非常多的這個陳情說要把我們人民的土地還給我們金門鄉親是不是本來就應該把上面的這些軍事建物拆除掉啊這基本你佔人家的土地在上面蓋房子要還了以後又不拆那是怎麼回事呢這個你回答一下你沒辦法回答是不是好那再來回答一下為什麼會這樣做"},{"start":322.554,"end":335.939,"text":"包委員有關這個金門是不是這個國軍佔用這些土地的問題我想我們會後會把這個相關的這個事情已經澄清很多次了而且因為不是一件是普遍的另外一個金門的鄉親根據國軍軍事勤務導致人民傷亡損害條例賠償國防部說那是他個人行為不在國家賠償之列"},{"start":343.781,"end":355.452,"text":"軍人有個人行為嗎都是國家的行為啊那軍方佔用國家土地很多都沒有使用要充斥所有權或繼承去購回那國防部一直說還在使用連我們前縣長李柱峰都跑去跟監察院陳情啊我們那時候老百姓大到我們的那個上次我們的金門縣前縣長你看這張照片李柱峰縣長在那裡跑去跟監委陳情說國防部就是這樣子蠻橫"},{"start":371.722,"end":389.41,"text":"這個個案我們要不是個案我想是通案我只是舉他當例子因為他是前縣長通案啦你去問監察院每次去金門這裡面講個人行為這是某一個個案我們要具體的聊他所說個人行為是說這個個人行為是指軍方的不是說我們這個縣長這不是通案的問題"},{"start":393.932,"end":401.483,"text":"我舉這個例子只是這是一個例子但是普遍我想你可能不了解你們誰負責這個部分的真的沒有接到很多陳情嗎因為本來今天是預算的部分我沒有說是國防機密"},{"start":411.016,"end":415.599,"text":"我沒有說這是國防機密好啦 你要多為基層的官兵想一想你想看他們待遇如果國家除了要對外打仗 除了要精密的武器以外也要民心士氣 你要軍人為你去外面去打仗去賣命你給他一點無後顧之憂的保障都沒有尤其戰鬥家我們沒有不給他保障"},{"start":434.19,"end":441.356,"text":"有啊 因為你說行政院說這個可能什麼違憲啊什麼什麼每天拘泥在這個上面國防部就是應該編你讓行政院刪沒有關係站在你國防部的立場你就應該為軍人請命好 這個門口頂啊這個國產局 國產署啦"},{"start":452.759,"end":471.231,"text":"這個門口門口這個問題你應該知道門前的一塊遍地空地有很多私領域那幾乎鄉下金門鄉下人家都有那早年對不對開放登記的時候金門老百姓那時候以前軍管時代老百姓都不懂這個法令那只登記所有權門前就沒有登記都被"},{"start":472.131,"end":493.772,"text":"就說歸國有吧 這些你們應該知道好來那根據中華民國那個112年憲判之第20號就是也有相關的歷史是在日治時期日本佔領的時候的那個私有土地總登記那個登記國有案裡頭有一些相關的判決主文就說在那個時候的相關的判決主文有說那人民基於在"},{"start":494.793,"end":520.197,"text":"基於這個該土地所有權地位請求國家土消登記時沒有民法消滅時效規定之適用你知道這個判決嗎知道知道好那很簡單講他就有下面三點的這個意義就是說第一個推定權利歸屬的效率不是絕對依據第二個國家不受憲法財產權的保障國家第三個導致土地被登記為國有容許國家主張時效抗命是沒有正當性可言的"},{"start":520.757,"end":531.145,"text":"那我想請教這個國產署那日據實在是這樣做基本早年被國家就是被軍方軍方就是國家這個侵佔這個徵用的這個土地是不是也可以援引辦理"},{"start":532.815,"end":559.071,"text":"報告委員 因為根據這個憲判制20號的意思你們是不是可以幫我們檢討憲判20號的部分是指說如果說民眾在爭議所有權在透過法院判決的時候國參署不能夠主張時效抗辯 沒錯 沒錯那現在基本有很多這個例子就是在軍戰 軍管時期因為這樣子沒有辦法登記嘛現在登記回來的時候也是遇到一樣的情形只是那個憲判制的時候是處理日據時代我們基本就是有軍管時代嘛"},{"start":559.952,"end":577.493,"text":"所以這個部分請你們回去幫我請好好的研究一下基本老百姓很多需要做這樣的登記的時候一樣應該要比照這個宪判制可以援引你們可以援引因為大家現在當我們老百姓要取回自己土地的時候都被用那個時效的那個方式來被駁回"},{"start":579.654,"end":603.501,"text":"回去研究一下幫我們來解決很快給我答案好不好兩個月可以嗎可以好謝謝來這個主計總署考試院調高的地方機關的這個植物劣等流財的115年今年2月就要上路那提高你看到這個說提高各地方政府所有機關這個兼任的這個非主管升到八到九涵蓋行政技術各方面還有"},{"start":604.981,"end":632.916,"text":"地方政府的一級主管 上列7條到7到8 這個你知道嗎你知道這件事嗎 考試院這個行最近的 地方普遍的調高那金門的主計單位來講金門主計單位是用輪調制度就是說 統一序列者會在國中小的會計主任 二級機關會計主任 鄉鎮所的主計人三個輪調 這三個是同一個序列那新制二業上路是不是只有二級機關會計主任才可以調整呢"},{"start":633.496,"end":639.238,"text":"那其他包括在國小會計主任及時間到了嗎還有這個鄉鎮主計員都是新人就沒有辦法調生呢原則上他是因為他調整有一定的限額嘛那所以這個部分不是限額是公平性問題因為時間到我跟您請教我有發函給你們你們有回覆啦"},{"start":654.954,"end":666.947,"text":"對 所以這個部分你看一下 這樣會造成的不公平一個剛從台灣調過來跟原來資深的這個過程中在這個整個 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先請考選部請考選部 何部長委員早部長早我想今天的主題剛才陳培宇委員在質詢的時候有提到"},{"start":27.686,"end":50.038,"text":"首先第一個問題是跟我們司法法治委員會最有關聯的部分這次我們要配合運動部成立所以我們體育行政人才的考選制度的檢討這是我們今天的一個重要的主題陳培宇委員有把時間序有關於我們這次體育行政"},{"start":52.839,"end":69.104,"text":"考試專業科目的變動時程剛才有出來這個部分我看就是剛才有一些部分我們沒有回答到個人比較關心的"},{"start":71.063,"end":91.978,"text":"這個你們就是剛才提到在去年的這個11月4號你們做了一個預告做了一個預告那時候預告要把原本的這個體育行政與管理跟這個運動社會學兩顆合併成一顆對不對11月4號你們公告的預告的11月4號到11月10號這個7天的時間你們預告了要改"},{"start":100.393,"end":121.766,"text":"什麼叫做這兩顆合併成一顆就是說其實對於考生來講從考生的角度來講就我本來準備200分的這個科目現在這200分變成100分了就只剩下100分這個是對從考生的角度來看就是兩顆的合併那你們在11月4號預告之後馬上在11月10號就引起了這個"},{"start":122.987,"end":150.55,"text":"不同的意見11月10號台灣運動社會學學會他們就發表聲明這聲明我想這部長不知道有沒有看到他馬上就是說認為這樣子的合併非常的不妥他們提出了運動社會學的專業地位不容模糊運動部成立之際更應該強化社會學的視野他們提出國際運動賽事的趨勢顯示跨領域整合的必要"},{"start":152.381,"end":169.154,"text":"那最後他們結論就是呼籲考選部能夠審慎考量維持運動社會學的作為一個獨立的考科這是他們的訴求那也因為有這樣子的意見我不知道是不是因為這樣的意見總之你們在在12月24號你們就召開了一個這個這個什麼會12月24號你們"},{"start":180.023,"end":207.576,"text":"你們召開了一個會議這個會議你們就是就是提出這個12月24號公告的一個結論你們結論就是好原本的預告這個就不算了你們就看起來從善如流就改回來再改回來結果你們是把運動社會學跟世界體育史合併為一個考科你們不再跟這個體育行政管理合併了你們把它跟世界體育史合併"},{"start":209.065,"end":235.672,"text":"所以你們也是沒有回應同樣的問題他希望維持這個運動社會學的一個獨立考科結果你們沒有還是沒有維持他作為一個獨立考科這樣子的考量是怎麼樣這個部長你要不要說明一下為什麼你們一定要把這個原本獨立的考科的運動社會學要跟其他科目合併本來先跟體育行政管理合併後來在開會之後結果去跟世界體育史合併"},{"start":236.892,"end":257.322,"text":"跟委員報告 那我們整併類科是我們整個考試院既定方向那其實現在絕大部分的高考類科 專業科目都是四科那只有非常少數 譬如說我們的體育行政還保留五科所以這次我們就是必須要把它整併成四科只是說到底是要用專業科目四科"},{"start":262.265,"end":283.994,"text":"專業科目其實它的過程就是專業科目從6科變其實我們上次是希望就是在113那時候已經希望是4科可是那時候就是因為很堅持我想每次我們到了要整併科目的時候各個專業團體都非常的堅持那這個時候怎麼辦這時候其實考檢部最應該要尊重的是運動部對 運動部就是相關的主管機關"},{"start":287.375,"end":289.075,"text":"跟委員報告因為115來不及我們預計要啟動116"},{"start":309.748,"end":335.841,"text":"預計要啟動疫苗因為我們現在 因為任何一次的跟委員報告因為這樣的跟動牽涉到都會牽涉到考生的權益啦 我知道不是 他刪減 他是法制作業因為我們要刪減一個科目 增加一個科目刪減一個科目要廢考試規則增加一個科目要增考試規則這必須完成考試院內部的法制作業所以他一定來不及所以我們必須一定要一定來不及沒有關係啦一定來不及沒有關係但是你們那時候在會議裡面你們是說你們在"},{"start":337.217,"end":352.93,"text":"預計在115年 就是今年115年你們要全面檢討各類科的考試項目就是說除了這個體育行政以外你們所有的類科的考試項目要在今年全面檢討這是你們的這個會議的結論你們會議結論說會議的結論是專門針對體育行政說考選部預計115年全面檢討各類科考試科目含運動自然科修正案本部屆時將配合"},{"start":366.781,"end":395.06,"text":"配合事實提供意見我們基本上應該是針對我們在那個就是體育行政的這一個類科所以不是要全面檢討所以你們在這個會議上面這個結論是親才講的我們那個會議只有討論體育行政類科不可能去討論到什麼類科你們說考選部預計115年全面檢討各類科考試科目本部屆時將配合事實提供意見那是運動部寫的不是我們寫的"},{"start":396.041,"end":422.652,"text":"對 不是我們寫的 那我們一定是針對我們既然那個會議只針對體育行政我們就只會針對體育行政所以就是應該比較正確的講法是針對這個類科全面去檢討裡面的科目預計116年的時候會做這些相關的這些考其實現在大學的許多體育科系他們的這個所謂的運動自然科學大部分現在都變成運動科技學了"},{"start":423.656,"end":450.394,"text":"跟委員報告這我們有跟黃次長有討論過基本上其實黃次長也不認為至少我的認知是他也不認為現在直接把他改成運動科技是一個好的方向今年就改當然是今年七月就要考試了今年就改是不行那個運動部至少現在他們的共識是保留運動自然科學這個科目名稱但是變動裡面的命題大綱也就是在既有的命題大綱的各個section裡面"},{"start":450.996,"end":453.471,"text":"加入科技元素那這個就是密體大綱來修改"},{"start":456.372,"end":485.229,"text":"喂 你好 的確是的就是你們現在你們的主張變成這個運動科目名稱不改但是你們的這個內容考題大綱去變動 是的好 這也是一個方向不過今年一定是來不及今年一定來不及因為你要顧及到考生準備的權利所以116年可能會做這樣的變動就可能會調整因為自然科學裡面包含了生理學 心理學 力學太多太多的把它拿掉也不對"},{"start":485.809,"end":503.611,"text":"所以加上科技的元素是比較合理的方式這樣我同意市長留著 我們考選部可以請回了接下來 我想這個剛才也有委員關心到有關於我們這個運產中心我們是請運產中心董事長一起"},{"start":510.356,"end":537.982,"text":"我們這個運動部下面這個三個行政法人這個國家運動這個訓練中心跟這個運科這個國家運科中心這兩個都是舊的原本的新設的就是我們這個運產中心那這個運產中心我們新設到現在我看到我們在在這個11這個去年的11月25號我們召開了第一次董事會召開第一次董事會所以我們現在整個董事會都已經組成了董事長也就任了好 那我們目前這個"},{"start":540.783,"end":564.364,"text":"這個運產中心的我們那個法制的原則是給你們100人那我看我們預計看這個表上面預計115年就今年預計這個是要禁用44人對不對今年預計 包含委員室的那目前有幾人 目前現在現在你們工作人員有幾人現在包含籌備處大概五位"},{"start":566.343,"end":595.29,"text":"你們現在董事會都已經成立了那你們預計今年要44個人但是現在你們才5個人才5個人而已那有兩位offer later你們現在目前要在哪裡辦公在那個和平東路3段137號運動在全民運動署大樓全民運動署大樓是不是那這個現在你們這個今年預計禁用44人但目前才5個人這樣的禁用的進度"},{"start":596.38,"end":617.501,"text":"這個我們董事長你有什麼樣的規劃跟期許報告委員我們現在是從比較高階的包含執行長副執行長還有處長這個層次現在領選那因為我們才成立所以我們最近把招募的人才放到各大網站還有包含我們公務人員的網站"},{"start":618.081,"end":639.198,"text":"因為這個跟目標差距有點大啦這44人跟5人這個一年的時間我希望我們這個運產中心這邊要努力啦但是我們還是另外一個在當初設置運產中心的時候當時我們組織條例的審查的時候大家就提出了非常多的"},{"start":639.918,"end":659.596,"text":"一個最大的一個問題就是大家對於這個我們這個運產中心的這個角色他跟過去這個經濟部他的對於相關產業的這個全責分工這部分你們現在組成的董事會對於這個全責分工有什麼看法就是你們什麼樣的產業歸你們什麼樣的產業歸經濟部"},{"start":663.335,"end":684.127,"text":"好 報告委員我們在運動產業發展條例有13個產業那後面都有明訂各個部會來主責比如說有些運動器材它可能就是在原來的經濟部的範疇裡面那屬於運動的賽事都在我們的運動部的範疇裡面所以都有一個明訂的項目當然還有一些新增像因為數位的科技粉絲的經濟這些還會在我們的運動本部來擔負這些責任"},{"start":689.17,"end":711.944,"text":"這個部分從我們當初在設置運產中心的時候大家就對這個你們的權責分工有很大的這個也不是質疑啦就是說對於大家會很想了解說到底你們的跟經濟部的這個相關的產業的分工到底是怎麼樣啦這部分也請運產中心這邊要掌握運產中心董事長請回我們市長稍微有最後一個問題這個"},{"start":715.799,"end":733.066,"text":"有關於一些新興的運動項目要納入全運會的標準我們這個標準現在到底是什麼樣的標準我的理解要把一項運動納入全民運動會它的標準是它這個項目至少要在連續兩屆的世界運動會的在哪一個規定應該是在他們的舉辦準則裡面舉辦準則裡面"},{"start":741.355,"end":755.446,"text":"舉辦準則是每一次的全運會的每一次他舉辦準則都不一樣舉辦準則沒有舉辦準則是一個大致的東西然後要回到籌備縣市他本身是一個籌備會這個市長你所講的所謂舉辦準則應該是全民運動會舉辦準則全民運動會舉辦準則他是按照這個國民體育法第八條第三項所授權的一個法規"},{"start":766.835,"end":785.743,"text":"它裡面我查了半天我沒有看到所謂連續兩屆這個規定那個是在地方的籌備會上面對 那是籌備會上面的所以不是你剛剛講準則所以你剛剛說準則裡面有規定我一看準則的第12條規定是應辦的種類是以世界運動會最近一屆已舉辦最近一屆 它沒有要求連續兩屆最近一屆已舉辦或者是將辦甚至還沒有辦過將辦裡的競賽種類違憲"},{"start":795.049,"end":809.496,"text":"也就是說按照你們的這個全民運動會的舉辦準則你只要未來屆屆要辦或者是已經辦過一屆就可以 那就可以納入沒有錯 可是最後的決定前還是回到了籌備處這個地方回到籌備處 那籌備處按照我們這個準則的第13條籌備處他有通過了這個運動競賽規程他還必須經過運動競賽審查會審議所以還是回到你們運動還是回到你們運動部 對不對他們必須要先提出來 沒錯"},{"start":824.342,"end":851.01,"text":"這個有這與時間的關係這個有關這個像舉例像是這個自由潛水這個項目這項目的這個在去年開始他們就一直在爭取要納入因為這個自由潛水它在2025年成為世界運動會的項目之一也就是它符合第12條它是已經舉辦過而且在這個賽事裡面我國這個張凱翔選手他還拿到世錦賽"},{"start":852.17,"end":860.451,"text":"的這個金牌這是我們國家有競爭力的項目那他也符合這個全民運動會的準則他已經舉辦過一屆"},{"start":863.18,"end":882.309,"text":"那希望要納入抱歉委員一屆這件事情是一個標準事實上還要考量的是國內可以參賽的人數跟隊伍如果報名的隊伍未達也就是沒有八個縣市可以組隊他還是辦不起來所以他必須要去考量這樣的事情都可以考量 但是像這樣子有國際競爭力的我們在市警賽有奪金"},{"start":887.671,"end":902.577,"text":"那他也已經納入試運會的這個標準當然你們每一年的舉辦項目你們必須公告一年前所以在今年的這個全運會已經來不及了來不及但是在兩年後你們若堅持按照現在規定一定要舉辦兩屆試運會的話所謂兩屆試運會就是八年的時間一個比賽一個選手的黃金黃金時期就這樣八年就這樣過了"},{"start":912.54,"end":916.565,"text":"等到你們說 兩屆可以辦了 全運會可以辦的時候這些選手的黃金時期就過了那按照你們法定的這個準則是只要辦過一屆"},{"start":926.843,"end":949.52,"text":"委員的訴求我們充分的理解所以我剛剛才回到說這個東西提出來的時候要看看到底國內的參賽人數有沒有辦法達成比賽的時候的規模雖然我們有一位兩位少數幾位很優秀的選手但是要成為全國的全民運動會的運動種類他是不是要有足夠的隊伍來報名他才有辦法舉行比賽"},{"start":950.44,"end":963.455,"text":"所以如果在沒有辦法那麼多隊伍的時候我們還是以單項錦標賽的方式來處理我們這樣子一個一個這個你當然啦還有很多很多其他條件嘛還有很多其他但是你們當初當初你們在這個"},{"start":965.497,"end":987.548,"text":"桃園市政府的這個在115年全民運動會競賽規程裡面他之所以不納入就是拿出所謂的兩次試運費要兩次才可以但是事實上在這個準則裡面是只要一次就可以所以你們在法律上站不住腳你現在就提出說參賽人數足或不足參賽隊伍足或不足這個在當初的整個討論過程中沒有這個問題"},{"start":989.725,"end":998.057,"text":"所以這個部分是不是請時間的關係我就希望你們能夠提出一個書面報告包括從剛才的所有我們剛講的這個這個我們這個"},{"start":1006.716,"end":1024.992,"text":"我們這個運產中心的這個相關的這些規劃他的政策定位 他的推動機制 績效評估他的績效評估方式以及我剛剛所講的這個新興的運動項目納入這個全運會的部分你們三個月內提出會報告給我好不好好 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謝謝主席我先講一句話如愛其養 武愛其禮今天我們民主國家立法院存在價值就是看緊人民荷包如果今天立法院三讀通過的案子"},{"start":28.149,"end":44.491,"text":"行政部門都不遵守立法院可以廢掉了加上現在行政權加上替他維持的這個幾個五個大法官居然可以下刑下警人數不夠還要說去把他釋憲"},{"start":46.158,"end":66.434,"text":"就是行政權加司法權 掏空整個立法權啦所以這個預算卡在這裡只要承諾說我們審預算 一定把金額加薪馬上審 他也不敢承諾啊 也不要承諾啊煩得早晚走去跑啦 解鈴還是吸鈴人啊公開呼籲賴清德"},{"start":67.555,"end":85.902,"text":"可以停止或者收緊你的鬥性吧讓我們的憲政回到正常常規來運作好 首先我們請海巡署的副主委兼不是 海外會的副主委兼海巡署的署長張副主委好 我們請張副主委主席會員好"},{"start":91.16,"end":96.044,"text":"你們除了大皮肉這兩天人家炮聲濃濃今天我看到你在會前挺身而出看起來一副要替管媽來扛子彈的樣子喔你可以看喔你可以看喔12月31號中共的解放軍正在進行2025的正義使命演習時光是什麼"},{"start":118.063,"end":140.32,"text":"還會主委管媽 plus你 plus底下的海巡署的八個分署長通通去吃飯啦然後留守的是副署長 副官所以怎麼樣 就大官吃飯 小官小兵上戰場我們都知道 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前線正在打仗耶會死人的耶"},{"start":298.422,"end":306.666,"text":"他的海警人進來你說已經出去了再回來這個時候上面都是副主管在那裡吃飯有這麼重要嗎延期有這麼困難嗎這個東西一句話而已好我再問你具體的這個錢誰出的"},{"start":315.899,"end":338.289,"text":"跟務委員報告我這邊要特別聲明很清楚他是一個專業的團隊他有專業判斷所以我們應該尊重專業然後讓專業判斷如果今天沒有專業的判斷那我們現在的運作機制不就一塌糊塗了嗎所以政府有政府的一定一致的專業的判斷跟判斷基準你回答問題前誰出的啦"},{"start":339.076,"end":361.611,"text":"跟委員報告 錢是由主委的特制費那所有的規定所有的使用規範都是符合政府的規範錢總共花了多少錢7萬多好吧這個你蔣以前我再講一句話你好好聽啦你不用回答啦很悲哀啦你居然在這裡還大聲在defense"},{"start":367.225,"end":394.62,"text":"所以啊 這個啊 前線打仗不如吃飯重要啦吃飯比較重要 吃飯不可以改啦打仗做於打仗啦 沒有關係重要主觀的key person 八個副署長都在署長 你是海巡署的署長 也在吃飯 都在吃飯啦這個東西 嚇死 嚇盡了這個丟了海巡署的臉 真的是我們的第一線是這樣 麻煩你請回來吧我們請外交部的這個副部長"},{"start":396.781,"end":397.822,"text":"請徐副部長委員好"},{"start":410.168,"end":426.296,"text":"董事長我們查了一下其實你的專業你要講國防也可以啦反正那個政治系的包山包海嘛可是看你的資歷我們叫check break對不對兩年的外交部政策五年的國安會副秘書長再過來國安會諮詢委員資歷是完整的但是你國防"},{"start":433.106,"end":446.053,"text":"你的國防的精力當然就是在國安會裡面設立一些啦這個也不能說你怎麼樣可是我們看到其實你最想去的是駐美代表不是嗎一度傳言你要去當駐美代表啊對不對 因為賴清德幾次沒辦法過去美國他就想要說換你去看能不能過去美國結果發現你去也過不了美國所以這個才改派國防部副部長"},{"start":464.165,"end":468.687,"text":"這個我就請問你了來這裡講實話喔來立法院講實話喔外交部的副部長跟駐美大使你喜歡哪一個只要能夠替中華民國台灣工作我都願意哪一個工作你比較加薪救手啦任何工作都要在工作上學習"},{"start":490.268,"end":517.234,"text":"學習的名字 學習這麼大國防部的副部長以前都是軍人出身的啦報告 報告文人副部副部長是文人副部長是啦 但是過去的副部長也都是有軍方涉獵很多的啦你的軍方涉獵最多是跟你講說在國防會的時候有啦齁但是大家都了解其實我們本人齁 大家都了解大家都了解 其實"},{"start":518.496,"end":545.198,"text":"你是去不了駐美代表才到國防部副部長國防部副部長老實講位子不比駐美代表低啦但是以你外交部的外交的一個長才你應該去駐美代表只是搞不定而已啦來 我們來看對於美國跑去委內瑞拉抓馬杜洛我們政府的態度是什麼"},{"start":547.803,"end":575.663,"text":"我們這種態度是什麼這個跟我們國家的利益比較沒有之間二樓社區打烏克蘭 我們就講話了啊我們在挺烏克蘭 譴責侵略請問這是不是侵略這是不是侵略 我問你是不是侵略是不是侵略如果有相關就是要強化我們自己應對突發狀況的準備是不是侵略嘛 就問你是不是侵略"},{"start":577.406,"end":583.684,"text":"俄羅斯進去烏克蘭他還是要保護他的子民啊旁邊烏東的地方都講俄羅斯語啊"},{"start":585.131,"end":612.475,"text":"它是為了國家安全啊它怕這個NATO北約不斷地通過俄羅斯它是這樣講啊它出兵 烏克蘭我們政府第一時間跳出來說這個侵略行為 譴責你要不要譴責一下美國侵略為了自身的私有利益安一個罪名 不管這個罪名怎麼樣你怎麼可以到別的國家去抓人呢如果要這樣子用同樣的Mindset"},{"start":614.677,"end":634.255,"text":"這個就是現在變成唐羅主義了 門羅主義的這個叫 Donald Trump唐羅主義中南美洲變成是美國的勢力範圍門羅主義重要的核心思想就是 美洲是美洲人的美洲同樣啊 大陸一直講啊"},{"start":636.101,"end":642.125,"text":"我們要強化我們自己引發突發狀況的能力你們準備好了 萬一他們要有所謂的斬首行動國防部準備好了沒有這跟你的關係有關係的根據我們突發狀況應對的規則我們有相關的準備有信心"},{"start":666.465,"end":690.656,"text":"我們有相關的準備有沒有信心啊 準備有沒有信心啊準備永遠要精進有沒有信心說絕對不會被他們得寸我們要做好最好的準備所以你不敢講咧還講得這麼保守我都做球給你 這麼大力做球給你你要表現啊 國防部副部長要表現說絕對沒有問題 放心只要我當副部長一天絕對不會讓他得寸所以你敢不敢講可以嗎 你講完我就下去"},{"start":697.108,"end":712.933,"text":"候委員 根據我們自己的規定我們要做好最好的準備所以我希望大會能夠盡快審查我們預算所以沒信心就對了好 謝謝賴委員國防預算通過之後他們會更有信心好 來 接下來我們請郭國文委員"}]}},{"id":"166767","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166767","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58527bf6791988d4e12e37ed2c5933891a7d23619189f10e6cf2364352bfb7cb845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:23:15 - 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次長還是再次感謝啦我們在11月12號在本席的媒合下那我們在運動科技人才的一個培育上針對原住民的部分還有一般選手擴大的培訓的這個部分的實質溝通之後呢你們這邊的一個正面的也很支持性的一個回應本席這邊也很感謝你們把本席的這個建議"},{"start":51.124,"end":75.575,"text":"納入在後續的整個規劃跟支持當中本席也非常的感佩這個建議是一個起點所以本席今天要談的是說不只是在運動科學這個面向而是我們希望把視角放得更高然後更遠當然在去年的11月我們這個運動產業中心已經開始運作最重要的是要建立這一個整個生態系讓整個台灣在運動產業的部分加進來之後我們整個"},{"start":79.897,"end":97.671,"text":"不僅產值提高然後人才也有一些去處所以在這個整個藍圖之中我還是滿關心原住民的這一塊是在一個什麼樣子的定位下過去我們知道原民在競技運動員的角色上扮演得非常好國際賽事也非常亮眼"},{"start":98.371,"end":101.613,"text":"但是當然退役之後能夠順利銜接到運動產業體系的比例卻不高在賽事的營運上還有運動的服務上跟產業管理還有基層教練甚至在運動行政上還有地方運動的發展都還是不太足所以本席認為這整個制度的設計沒有把原住民納入運動產業人才供給端的一個通盤的規劃"},{"start":125.109,"end":146.799,"text":"所以在過去產生這樣一個情形所以本席想要請教三個問題那第一個是當運動部在推動運動產業發展中心跟相關人才培育政策時那原住民是不是也可以像這個運動科學我們先前討論的這樣子把它納入運動產業人才很重要一個來源然後最重要的就是說在培訓實習還有產學合作上"},{"start":147.279,"end":166.081,"text":"跟職癌的銜接機制可不可以有更具體的原名的部分的一個參與跟設計那第二個部分我們先前在11月12號的一個會議裡面那運科人才你們這邊有承諾那但是未來是不是不要只限於運科而是進一步擴大到運動產業需要的各個專業項目"},{"start":167.843,"end":192.609,"text":"譬如說運產中心的人事規章可不可以參照比照運科人才的一個方式來處理例如像賽事場館的營運還有運動的服務跟地方產業發展的面向讓原住民不是只有選手的來源而是在整個生態系當中可以變成一個專業的參與者第三個部分是針對原鄉跟原住民地區的原住民族地區本身的一個運動產業的發展"},{"start":194.429,"end":223.969,"text":"那運動部是不是有思考如果透過人才培育與制度的設計讓原住民能夠在這個在地建立一些運動相關產業的服務而不是被迫離開家鄉才能進入到運動產業的這個體系那本席這邊也可能提醒一下那個部裡面應該之前在教育部其實有一些法規的更改讓原鄉的運動人才流失的更快也就是這種挖角的機制讓我們原鄉的很多優秀的運動人才"},{"start":224.469,"end":240.505,"text":"那就流失了從原鄉流失但是在都會呢他可能會碰到未來發展的一個問題所以然後等到可能我們沒有去注意到他可能就在這個都會的部落空間裡面或者是非部落空間他就變成流散了"},{"start":240.885,"end":264.753,"text":"那又變成一個人才的一個虛耗跟浪費喔所以本席還蠻關注這一點這本席未來可能要針對這個法規之前的一個調整而導致這樣的情形再跟你們再做探討但是先是不是可以就本席在剛才的三個問題上請這個次長先做一個回應或者是董事長這邊如果有一些補充那也吸聽"},{"start":265.453,"end":289.324,"text":"您的一些見解謝謝委員的指導我們對於原住民人才的產業人才的培養其實會跟運動科學這一類是類似的首先我們會先去定義出來到底產業人才的需求在哪裡也就是說我們可能會委請我們的產業中心把不同產業的能力指標也就是它的職能基準先列出來之後我們必須要回到大學端去"},{"start":289.864,"end":314.845,"text":"也是大學在那個地方做初步的人才培養然後我們會想辦法去媒合產學合作這件事情因為在學校訓練出來的人如果沒有經過一段時間的現場的這種訓練跟培養他是不太容易去跟市場做對接的因此產業中心的任務之一其實就是要做這種人才對接的一個任務因此他們會先把職能基準訂出來如果職能基準可以通過"},{"start":316.346,"end":336.26,"text":"勞動部的職能基準的檢查那是另外一個證照的考試這也是我們發展的方向所以在職能基準上面我們是一定要往那邊走的而在原住民這個地方的人才留在我們的原鄉裡面這其實是運動部一直以來在做的事情我們希望能夠去發展原鄉在運動上面的人力的需求"},{"start":337.02,"end":359.29,"text":"目前我們有在規劃去培養一些原鄉的原住民接受訓練然後回到原鄉去工作也是我們蠻期待的這一類受過我們訓練的人可以回到原鄉去進行運動指導健康促進也就是讓我們原鄉的發展因為有運動的元素而存在讓他們的民眾可以更健康"},{"start":359.77,"end":386.885,"text":"是 謝謝次長那這個在實務性的操作本席其實先前也一直很關心我們也談到說某一些這個培訓的這個據點能夠在這個本席因為來自花東啦所以在台東跟花蓮都是本席非常關注的那園鄉也在這個地方其實數量是特別多的那先前本席跟這個台東的立委那個黃建斌委員也有在談說是不是有一些專業的訓練中心可以設在這個台東花蓮"},{"start":388.265,"end":406.357,"text":"剛才我又聽到王逸川委員這邊也有這樣一個想法所以我也呼應一下所以有一些項目那是不是您剛才說宜蘭有這個划船的嘛那花蓮或台東是不是因地制宜適合的項目或過去已經在歷史上有發展的一些項目可不可以在這個部分再多做一些考量"},{"start":406.877,"end":424.586,"text":"那本席當然在全民運動的部分還有水域運動其實在花東也一直在推動那但是就本席剛才所講的這個專業的訓練中心當然我們現在很多項目都是在左訓嘛就是國訓中心那是不是未來可以考量在花東甚至因為要有這樣的平台您剛才講的"},{"start":425.726,"end":441.165,"text":"這些項目才有可能成就這個是跟空間有直接的關係然後運動產業或許在這裡面可以透過不管是國際賽事或者是訓練中心跟國際間的連結比如說像現在我們知道在京津台東的京津那衝浪的"},{"start":442.606,"end":458.276,"text":"這個國際性賽事的原地沒有經過國家的一個推動但事實上它就自然形成那我們可以藉這個機會然後把這個產業中心跟訓練基地的平台給建置起來那另外還有本席很關心的風帆類不管你是在這個台東或者是"},{"start":459.716,"end":485.308,"text":"我們還是希望在台東因為我們有看過地形目前台東還是比較恰當的那花蓮如果有那當然也是那宜蘭本來就已經有一些設施了所以我們也希望說能夠透過這樣一個機會給予一個專業訓練中心的平台在花東然後另外產業中心可以透過跟國際間的連結直接嫁接那我想這應該是相得益彰本席這邊先做一個這樣比較實質的建議那也希望我們這個董事長"},{"start":486.068,"end":500.458,"text":"這邊也把它考量進去那我記得應該是鄭委員鄭天才委員他在這個有關於運動產業還有這個運動科學他應該都有一些附帶決議希望你們把原住民這個部分給直接考慮進去一定會執行 是的所以本席這邊就做一個建議啦當然也會追這個樣一個進度"},{"start":505.982,"end":523.141,"text":"那最後呢是針對今天在運動這個體育人才項目的一個考科體育行政人才運動行政人才本席這邊有一個關注一件事啦應該在考選部對不起那現在是不是可以請考選部這邊謝謝謝謝市長跟董事長委員好"},{"start":529.958,"end":550.304,"text":"部長您好在目前體育行政人才的高等考試考科好像你們將原本獨立的運動社會學跟世界體育史要合併成為一個單一的考試科目本席這邊有一些看法本席過去也出過文化行政相關的一個考題"},{"start":551.084,"end":579.443,"text":"所以覺得這個每一個考科他的思維跟訓練是很重要的一個在這個考科裡面的核心價值所以運動社會學不是體育行政的一些附屬學科他探討的是運動跟社會族群文化性別的一個互動關係然後是理解運動政策如何形成那會怎麼樣影響社會還有這整個社會接受的一個核心的分析學門那這個實質的效果不是只有整合"},{"start":580.123,"end":605.936,"text":"那你們把那個運動社會學跟這個世界體育史放在一起它會有點弱化公務體系對運動政策社會脈絡一個理解能力所以運動社會學其實是很重要一個社會脈絡的核心那世界體育史當然是一些整個對國際的一個知識層面那兩個其實核心概念是不太一樣的所以以後的運動治理現在就已經遇到了不是只有賽事跟行政包括性別平權社會參與跟族群的議題"},{"start":608.297,"end":622.153,"text":"那另外當然還有運動外交那當然運動外交你要當然對這個國際的一些運動史體育史要有一些了解但本質上都是很高度依賴社會學跟人文學科的這個分析能力所以本席請教一下"},{"start":623.294,"end":640.183,"text":"第一個考選部在評估這個考科合併的時候有沒有檢視這有沒有可能你們這樣合併會不會削弱未來體育行政人才在社會分析跟公共政策上反思的一個能力然後第二個部分是運動部成立之後那個國家運動治理也"},{"start":640.743,"end":659.033,"text":"納入一個新的 邁向新的階段喔 但是考選部是不是應該更強化 而是而不是淡化運動社會學的整個地位 因為這畢竟還是有一些擇司 那你在整個體育行政上如果沒有一些核心價值跟社會脈絡的理解 我想會蠻糟糕的啦 所以這個本席還蠻關西喔"},{"start":660.654,"end":685.826,"text":"另外還是建議運動社會學是不是可以還是獨立這樣確保國家在選拔體育人才的時候不是只有管理很重要的就是一個社會的公共價值您的看法跟委員報告這次主要的病科主要是說因為現在絕大部分的高考三級其實專業科目都是四科體育行政還有五科這意味著考生必須多考一天"},{"start":687.126,"end":699.779,"text":"那對他們來講你們是成本考量還是什麼不是那個因為現在本來就是說本來這應該說在我們前一波113年的時候本來的那時候的基金政策就是專業科目都是減為4科減併為4科那普考減併為3科"},{"start":703.743,"end":729.153,"text":"那還保留一個5顆到6顆的我們是在這一波裡面就是希望這些要來一致那目前來講的話其實運動社會學跟事業體育史它的命題大綱並沒有變動所以其實它大概改變了比較接近那基本上它就會被這個condense濃縮了之後有些東西會被稀釋掉跟委員報告那這一個是經過運動部跟運動部還有就幾個地方的行政機關這是有開會過的"},{"start":730.433,"end":753.186,"text":"那其實也是具體他們的建議本席是比較關心我不希望這些運動行政相關的人才沒有一些擇司然後就只是變成操作性的工具人如果只有在行政跟管理的一個層面那我想整個國家的這個運動的思維高度可能會有所疑慮本席是針對這個部分跟委員報告有考就會讀這個大概是這樣這個是很明顯的其實"},{"start":758.809,"end":782.588,"text":"以及是增值說這個配分要重大其實老實說它的配分在整個你要入局還是很重要的一塊所以我想這個考生還是會重視這件事情好 所以對這幾科本席對於這個所謂這個專業價值的制度性的宣示的這個部分也是蠻重視的那至於行政實務的一個操作我是說這個比例上還是不應該這個至少50 50啦 至少"},{"start":784.269,"end":794.318,"text":"好不好所以是不是也請你們做一些考量那我們會再跟那個運動部我們會再確認一下那基本上應該是這樣的配分好 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事實上對於未來國際的稅改呈現稅片化的影響還是有的所以同時我覺得我們如果要推必須要跟產業界這36家 37家國際的跨國企業做完整的溝通但是同時"},{"start":580.297,"end":600.856,"text":"我覺得必須要有其他的配套措施譬如說新加坡他有一些退稅的制度或者是他有其他的獎勵措施來去引導他們再投資其他的產業就是說我的獎勵我補稅也好或者我退稅也好有其他的獎勵措施來去引導他們"},{"start":602.657,"end":620.758,"text":"我們有沒有什麼相關的配套措施可以來去做處理這一部分都在通盤在研議當中通盤研議當中因為現在美國他已經退出這個制度將來會怎麼樣去發展我們要密切關注其他國家的一些做法我們做適度的做一個調整"},{"start":622.547,"end":650.741,"text":"次长因为这36家跨国企业上市上位公司在去年114年财报已经关账了你如果要回溯这个影响冲击会非常大特别是跨国企业这个税负的稳定制是非常重要的这个后续你不讲清楚说明白对他们冲击是什么影响到所有股东的权益我们会纳入考量后面要有什么样的配套措施我觉得我们要更清楚的"},{"start":651.261,"end":664.639,"text":"去跟這36家跨國企業去做一些溝通來保持穩定性也不會損及所有股東的權益好 了解我們會配合辦理謝謝李委員接下來我們請羅明采委員"}]}},{"id":"166775","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166775","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58a443abde9fb5d7912e37ed2c5933891a7d23619189f10e6ce389c4a505309a2e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:48:12 - 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我請運動部次長黃次長委員你好好 次長先請教您就是"},{"start":21.587,"end":41.196,"text":"2027年的世界盃篮球赛亚洲区的资格赛在今年陆续都会开打那这牵涉到就是我们会对上中华队会对上中国队那现在在三月份要确定本来应该是属于我们主场的"},{"start":41.996,"end":62.552,"text":"因為通常主場就應該在我們的這個球就是我們的場地來打球那現在在3月1號的這個中華隊對中國隊的賽事現在呢確定把它變成第三地到菲律賓嘛這是確定了對不對是的好那"},{"start":64.594,"end":80.091,"text":"這個藍鞋表示說因為國際藍種回復說因為當前的地緣政治的背景的考量才決定以往第三地這個非常明顯是政治因素 對不對"},{"start":81.263,"end":104.832,"text":"看起來是這其實就是政治因素我個人非常反對政治來干預體育政治影響體育雖然在全球在兩岸常常政治都會干預到體育但是我個人是非常非常的反對那好現在這個幾乎已經成為這個事實因為它是3月1號開打"},{"start":106.613,"end":134.403,"text":"但是呢另外一個就是中國隊以中國為主場的中國隊對上中華隊到目前地點還沒有確定那我在這邊的建議和要求就是如果國際藍種因為所謂的地緣政治的關係把原來應該屬於在台灣主場的部分去移到第三地那麼就應該對等"},{"start":136.161,"end":158.536,"text":"那麼就應該對等那不要3月1號本來應該在我們這邊打球的把他移到菲律賓但是到了他就是好像7月6號7月6號他這個時間都定下來這個場地去移到中國去來打球的話那我們就絕對不能接受 是不是"},{"start":159.196,"end":180.985,"text":"我们一定会请篮球协会去函FIBA跟他说明清楚我们的立场既然要用这样的概念去换到第三地我们也希望在中国大陆比赛的场地也移到第三方的场地去办理这样才叫做互惠互等平等的一个对待的方式但是主办权是在FIBA的本身"},{"start":182.051,"end":209.444,"text":"是 沒有錯啦 但是我覺得我這個部分我們要有嚴正的立場因為對我們很多球迷來講其實是已經很大的一個落空而且基本上我是非常反對政治的這個因素去干擾到這個體育的賽事那所以 既然要移到第三地那就通通都移到第三地不能夠厚恥薄彼是的不然的話對我們的中華隊非常非常的不公平"},{"start":209.844,"end":231.202,"text":"我們一定會讓我們的對口我們的窗口一定要表達這個立場到國際籃球總會去我覺得這是一定要非常非常確定的另外請教次長一件事情最近還有一個議題是比較熱烈討論的就是有關於體育班體育班要不要廢除的問題這個其實討論的很多包含這個"},{"start":238.125,"end":242.888,"text":"這個體育班過去張亮萬堅也曾經有講過說有延誼有延誼是先廢除國小的體育班所以我想請教一下次長以目前來說運動部成立我們對於體育班的存廢我們的目前的看法是什麼方向是什麼"},{"start":264.48,"end":276.33,"text":"是不是先是階段性廢除還是說先有研議廢除國小的體育班先保留包含中學的體育班現在是不是我們的方向是什麼"},{"start":277.096,"end":298.989,"text":"我們的方向其實是要經過一段時間去做轉型特別是國小體育班的部分他是透過轉型的方式而不是直接要把它廢掉尤其在短時間之內如果要把體育班廢掉會有另外一群人受到立刻的影響特別是從小孩子這個地方到教練就業這個地方都會有非常大的影響基層教練的部分是的"},{"start":299.409,"end":328.636,"text":"不過我個人會認為啦教育教育他應該最基本的核心是誰學生學生對我覺得我們在討論這個研議要不要存廢或者是轉型的這個考量裡面沒有錯我想基層教練一定會擔心那如果國小體育班廢除了那基層教練何去何從呢你要不要幫他轉型等等之類那應該要去做考量"},{"start":329.116,"end":350.726,"text":"但是這個核心應該仍然是學生的發展所以我覺得在我們整個的研議的過程裡面我還是會希望能夠以學生為主那當然基層教練也要比如說你可以是循序漸進的方式先轉型後備處都可以所以我們現在有在啟動這樣的一個研議方向"},{"start":352.227,"end":379.969,"text":"目前運動部跟教育部正密集的討論體育班未來要走的方向因為目前體育班的本身的業務是在教育部裡面所以我們是搭配著他們整個推動的進程持續的跟他們做溝通我們一定會關心到小孩子的發展事實上我個人認為小孩子尤其是小學生的體育班他應該是以發展個人的能力而不是以競賽為主的一種概念所以就是為什麼在比較詬病的地方"},{"start":380.749,"end":384.47,"text":"好那我將剩下這個最後有兩分鐘我要特別跟那個我們次長來那個交換意見的就是我們過去過去我們最怕的就是在運動賽事裡面有任何的賭博介入運動賽事那真的是把我們很好不容易這個處苦心把它建立起來的這些這些職業賽事整個都都那個毀滅了"},{"start":409.298,"end":431.254,"text":"那最近就是叫做雨刷這雨刷在運動賽事裡面非常有名過去他是差一點毀滅我們中職的男人這個是媒體給他的封號因為當時包含他這個讓張志佳跟陳志遠都涉入了相關的賭博事件那這位他曾經擔任過嘉義市的"},{"start":434.897,"end":458.376,"text":"民進黨的議員而且呢在我們賴總統的他當時的競選總部竟然也在設在他的這個就是是他的這個地點就是他的那個房子裡面所以當時連時代力量都曾經批評過時代力量都曾經批評過如果我們支持我們支持運動賽事絕對不能夠沾賭絕對不能夠染上賭博"},{"start":462.739,"end":474.828,"text":"那最近呢最近這位這個雨刷應該對不起嘉義縣的議員蔡振宜他最近又被查出涉入高達225億元的洗錢225億洗錢那他最後呢是以3000萬交保而且給他說"},{"start":484.215,"end":493.043,"text":"那個電子監控那其實引起行騎網路非常大的不滿因為他的洗錢的金額高達225億而且竟然還讓他走密道擔心他被曝光那大家覺得說到底他是何方神聖是背後有靠山嗎才可以用這樣的方式對他做禮遇"},{"start":506.636,"end":530.289,"text":"那當然今天法務部不在等到法務部來的時候我還是會去提醒因為過去我們很多的洗錢這些大亨或者涉及詐騙的或者重大經濟犯罪者那雖然他是重保雖然他是很高額交保但對他們來講根本不在乎那對他來講是九牛一毛最後呢他們都棄跑潛逃這個案子"},{"start":533.31,"end":560.881,"text":"這個案子已經有7名的這個被告7名的被告已經潛逃出境這個案子已經7名被告潛逃出境所以我們希望的是不希望再看到曾經涉入差一點毀滅我們中職的男人曾經涉入中職這個賭博然後而且又有這樣的重大洗錢而且他顯然後面有非常雄厚的"},{"start":561.161,"end":577.891,"text":"政商實力背景的好這樣的一個人在這樣的一個大這樣的重大的洗錢案裡面不要再出現不要再出現我們最不願意看到而且絕對不能容忍的潛逃記保潛逃出境那當然這個不是我們運動部的這個"},{"start":582.634,"end":586.836,"text":"職長但是呢還是要提醒我們運動部未來就是我們在發展全民運動之際在這些職業賽事裡面我們也非常重要絕對不能讓賭博射入我們這些相關的賽事好不好謝謝委員的提醒在運動場域的賭博運動部是絕對沒有容忍的任何空間對 零容忍絕對沒有好 謝謝好 謝謝王宏威委員接下來"}]}},{"id":"166774","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166774","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b5899c83f047d62c9edeeb09d831e7021177d23619189f10e6c35370ae7c0b599e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:44:13 - 09:55:08","影片長度":"00:10:55","會議時間":"2026-01-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處主計長陳淑姿、財政部部長莊翠雲、國防部副部長、海洋委員會副主任委員、海巡署副署長就「115年度中央政府總預算案至今尚未審查，對國家安全及地方建設的影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-05","start_time":"2026-01-05T09:44:13+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-05T09:55:08+08:00","duration":655,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-4-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.33471875,"end":2.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.91659375,"end":4.047218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.117218750000003,"end":15.809093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.11284375,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.95159375,"end":48.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.96846875,"end":49.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.96596875,"end":109.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.10784375,"end":103.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.59284375,"end":104.31846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.56659375000001,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.07284375,"end":115.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.92846875000001,"end":121.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.96596875,"end":119.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.29034375,"end":122.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.45909375000001,"end":125.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.39971875,"end":125.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.74971875000001,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.29346875000002,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.27221875,"end":131.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.62659375,"end":134.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.27596875,"end":133.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.01846875,"end":153.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.48784375,"end":157.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.15409375000002,"end":157.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.45784375000002,"end":164.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.81221875,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.39846875,"end":160.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.62596875,"end":162.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.54971875,"end":166.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.94159375,"end":171.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.35034375,"end":199.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.33721875,"end":173.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.95284375,"end":176.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.04846875,"end":185.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.08221875,"end":185.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.95346875,"end":201.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.51034375,"end":199.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.36659375000002,"end":212.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.18346875,"end":217.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.93784375,"end":222.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.32596875000002,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.75596875000002,"end":227.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.00034375,"end":230.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.39159375000003,"end":238.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.14596875,"end":236.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.02346875,"end":237.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.47471875000002,"end":329.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.51221875000002,"end":241.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.16159375,"end":244.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.76846875,"end":340.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.86409375,"end":338.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.03284375000004,"end":339.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.85534375000003,"end":383.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.66909375,"end":345.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.32284375,"end":347.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.66846875000005,"end":349.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.02284375000005,"end":349.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.42784375,"end":349.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.26284375,"end":352.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.47721875,"end":357.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.76409375000003,"end":357.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.42221875,"end":358.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.75971875000005,"end":358.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.19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,{"start":155.034,"end":170.061,"text":"對 所以這個部分對GDP是有影響那因為它影響大部分會分會下修嘛那我們要看整個情形下修大概是什麼程度你能不能重新評估一次因為它評估下修的一個因素非常的多"},{"start":170.421,"end":196.348,"text":"對 至少四大因素當中寫得很清楚嘛政府支出就是一個很重要的關鍵你剛剛在講有影響所以這3.5是你原來預估當中並沒有把這個變數放進去你就應該有重估的這個可能嘛不是嗎我就本席就是提醒你回去重估也讓國人知道因為你不省預算你沒有通過這一個特別預算你會影響到GDP的成長你明年未必能夠超過4萬的這一個國民所得對不對"},{"start":199.389,"end":222.538,"text":"我们一般是三个月重估一次对 三个月重估一次你现在就要重估了不要等三个月我看现在的态势很可能没有过的比例比较大不然你做个民调不然现场问一下也可以再跟委员报告我们大概今年在113年我们初估是7.37对 没关系你过去预估的我就不管你对 我要再跟你说这个程序"},{"start":223.038,"end":227.6,"text":"就是说我会检讨114年的时候对对对我在讨论检讨114年度的我会再做修正同时也修正115年度你刚才说1000亿喔就0.5%喔这起码有4000亿喔就至少2%喔"},{"start":245.467,"end":260.115,"text":"这2%的影响你估计不过是3.54而已就影响到这个公共支出影响这么大这么大的冲击你等于拦腰斩半你当然要重新评估怎么可以等到三个月以后好 接下来本席再问你一下"},{"start":261.675,"end":277.001,"text":"另外一個部分因為財法法的部分我們不附屬可是第一版的財法法的時候在113年12月20號的時候就三讀通過那時候就影響到4165億下放給地方整整一年你一直在強調說要重新規劃事權"},{"start":280.762,"end":296.329,"text":"財權跟事權是互相影響事權結頂財權財權也會影響到事權早期的影響最多的是1999年的這個金省的部分廢省的部分所造成的一個衝擊面可是現在已經一年了主席長我們應該去真實的面對這個問題嘛"},{"start":297.909,"end":318.334,"text":"撲鼠另外一回事那還有一個變數可是這已經形成定局的這個事權也許需要修法藍白不一定會過可是我們版本要出來我們要把問題攤出來面對現在真實的狀況第一個 哪些法需要修事權的歸屬需要修第二個 不需要修要修哪些規則"},{"start":320.395,"end":326.185,"text":"讓中央跟地方的這個分工可以明確化不要造成日後的一個爭議這個應該把它具體的擬出來這個 主委長"},{"start":329.844,"end":349.619,"text":"我要跟委員報告事實上我們在中央總預算裡面其實對地方的一個補助裡面不要談到不用修市權的部分它就有一個一般性的補助這都原來是屬於地方印辦的事項就是2501億然後再來就是一個計畫型的補助那我們在114年度是將近2400億總預算的部分"},{"start":358.786,"end":380.744,"text":"那這兩個部分因為我們不修條文的話再只能就針對如果說4165億要給地方那我們只能針對對原來地方硬辦的事項我們必須要做刪減所以我們就會把原來一般性補助有一些是屬於地方硬辦的事項"},{"start":381.364,"end":408.826,"text":"回歸給地方去辦理是這樣子所以說只有在規則上來做調整目前都還沒有需要修法還沒有修到法這個部分就是這樣子那再來就是有關原來省政府的部分其實他總共要拿走15%包括省政府就是4165再加上那個2501加起來總共要拿走15%就包含省政府的部分那原來省政府的業務"},{"start":409.747,"end":423.635,"text":"把你需要修改的部分會後給本席一份因為我還要問國防部海洋海委會好不好謝謝請回謝謝你整理一份給本席接下來我請那個副部長徐副部長還有包括我們海委副主委張總統副主委兩位請請徐副部長張副主委"},{"start":431.162,"end":451.002,"text":"副部長 你在國防報告書當中你有寫到這書面報告說將有高達780億人約有21%的國防預算未能約到原來的期程的部分這會不會造成影響到裝備彈藥跟不對稱的戰力的建構跟官兵訓練的動員之外這實質的影響之外會不會造成跟美方之間一個信諾的一個毀約"},{"start":453.505,"end":482.171,"text":"鮑委員會我前面就講過國防預算其實也是一個向國際社會表達我們自我防衛決心的一個重要的政治訊號是你看2025年美國的這個國防安全戰略當中就指出台灣是通往第二島鏈的直接通道而且在第一島鏈當中扮演戰略阻斷的一個角色另外美國也不會單獨承擔第一島鏈的一個防衛任務也簡單的講過去被保護的對象轉為成戰略阻斷的一環特別是日本"},{"start":482.711,"end":497.861,"text":"台灣跟菲律賓嘛 對不對如果是這樣的情況底下我們一直延宕這些預算會造成國防跟海巡戰力會出現時間的落差會不會造成這一種戰略履約能力的一個這一個失去信用 信心"},{"start":498.7,"end":522.735,"text":"的確有這個可能性因為這裡面不只牽涉到是美國還有所有的有盟國家到時候甚至包括歐洲國家對我們這個台海和平穩定的支持如果是這樣子的話應該把這個如果有具體有約定有違約的話法律上的責任或政治上的一個承諾的嚴重性加以凸顯副部長你請回我接下來請那個海委會那個張副主委"},{"start":528.663,"end":547.502,"text":"主席委員好張副我剛剛就講到從第一島鏈的部分台灣跟日本還有菲律賓過往我們在2016年的時候台日的海洋事務的合作對話的時候就有提到要簽署彼此的海難搜索救助的MOU"},{"start":548.943,"end":574.81,"text":"就我理解的部分一直到等到2024年的時候才有實際的行動在台日海巡在日本的千葉縣外面來做一個海外海的演練那這個部分呢目前為止第七屆的會議去年沒有召開今年還在磋商當中有沒有可能繼續強化台日海巡之間的合作來應對這個灰色作戰這是第一個"},{"start":575.85,"end":604.86,"text":"海巡是我們第二海軍第二個有沒有可能從雙邊到多邊因為現在的部分是台日之間有那個日非之間有台非之間沒有台非之間有台非之間也有海難的部分就是各自雙邊但是沒有多邊有沒有可能擴到多邊那個副主委就教育您我先回答委員第一個問題那有關台資部分在我們簽約以後對於海難搜救跟救助一直都是在進行"},{"start":605.18,"end":624.065,"text":"一直在進行那有一些這個演練的部分啦這邊因為是四色機敏所以不適合在這邊適合在更委的報告早日新聞都已經披露了你還在吃四色新秘不是 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謝謝委員長主委早主委我想這個前面兩位委員的質詢雖然他們兩個跟我都不同黨不過我覺得有一些建議特別是他們理性提出的建議我覺得"},{"start":28.752,"end":50.175,"text":"應該公共工程會要適度的聽聽並且做一些研議的工作為什麼我這樣講其實我們要先讓社會大眾並不能夠因為在朝野或者說台灣政治社會對立的情況底下很多事情都被混淆也就是說"},{"start":51.465,"end":79.074,"text":"我相信剛剛包括前面委員去提到這些所謂社會爭議的這些標案我們要先確定他有沒有違採購法如果行政部門認為OK在招標的程序都沒有違法甚至有一些案子提起訴訟法院也認為沒有違法這是一個在法律程式上我們面對社會爭議的案子大家就依法行政"},{"start":80.182,"end":108.816,"text":"但是主委也要有一個同樣有一個觀點就是社會一般大眾的認知是什麼譬如說資本額太低飆很大的案子那這時候我們會告訴他他能不能夠履約啊可是主委你也知道有些台灣很多企業他很喜歡把資本額做小然後獲利能力變得很大他EPS可能1000元因為他資本額太小了"},{"start":110.25,"end":132.718,"text":"可是對一般社會大眾的認知這個程式而言這個那麼小的公司去吃那麼大飆那麼大的金額大家先天就會認為懷疑會覺得怪怪的會覺得這個沒有問題嗎所以這個會挑戰一般社會的認知就像我們要把三家"},{"start":134.842,"end":146.867,"text":"過去我們叫做要最少要三間來標啦我們現在把那個三家廢除一家我想剛剛我好像在路上有聽到那個數我們有公布一個數據嘛就是"},{"start":148.949,"end":171.979,"text":"流標的因為只有因為標不到三家而沒辦法決標的案子有多少件第一次決標流標的是不足三家是三百七十以上對對所以在我們透過科學數字的管理我覺得這個比例很高嘛所以效率就會下降這個就不是常態對對對所以呢但是社會為什麼我剛剛講說"},{"start":175.426,"end":190.206,"text":"數字的論述這個沒有問題我都尊重因為公共懲惡會要提出這個修法也一定有一個科學的根據有一個在實務面操作裡面的需求甚至公共懲惡會認為下錯藥了就是我們要防弊"},{"start":191.067,"end":212.654,"text":"房幣的邏輯不應該三家或許這個都你們曾經在內部開會討論過等等的問題但一樣的道理他又要挑戰一次社會的認知社會認知會認為啊怎麼會以前三間在飆啊其實社會也不一定知道說很多三間在飆齁其實都是很認真飆的那一家去找兩家不大想飆的啊不一定要三間不然你們兩個來倒飆啦"},{"start":213.752,"end":232.726,"text":"他們沒有 不一定有作弊喔他們不一定有作弊但他可能因為他就沒有人想做但是就老是他一個人想做然後他一直流標啊所以呢他就去找兩個朋友說你兩個來標他也沒有 兩個也沒有串通也沒有做什麼這個案盤的交易但他為了要趕快把這事情標到把他執行"},{"start":233.737,"end":249.107,"text":"所以就會有這個現象的產生所以我們也覺得所以機關買機票要三家以上對對對所以這個就是我們過去在買一張機票要三家以上所以沒有三家以上被起訴沒錯所以這裡面有很多的問題所以你們才會提這個修法"},{"start":249.887,"end":276.773,"text":"但我的意思是說有時候這些修法都要跟社會認知要做一定程度的說明跟解釋也就是大家想像裡面不合理大家想像裡面超乎他個人的主觀認知那這時候我們可能就要一點社會說服跟溝通的過程否則我們要挑戰的是社會的認知這個叫約定俗成這個叫它刻板印象這個叫它既定的邏輯"},{"start":278.206,"end":301.257,"text":"要挑戰這個 主委這要有一些論述也可能要有一些時間不然我們會面臨很大的挑戰就是說大家認為這怎麼合理 這怎麼合得來可是我們其實在觀光層我會大家專家學者你們去討論然後實務面去看很多不合理一定要規定三加其實它是產生很多的問題不合理所以"},{"start":302.17,"end":327.56,"text":"挑戰大家都希望連能政府要清連又要有能力就是有效率啦大家都希望建立一個連能政府但連跟能之間常常會相互抵銷啦會相互抵銷那怎麼樣不讓兩者相互抵銷兩者可以相輔相成然後更連更能我認為這個跟很多時候都會跟社會的既定印象"},{"start":328.683,"end":335.398,"text":"不一定是對的既定印象但它就是社會的一個既定印象它會產生干戈或衝突所以我剛剛"},{"start":336.96,"end":365.373,"text":"的想法裡面我一直想跟主委討論這個問題就是說你們要做這些事情本席不會說反對啦但是呢我認為那個社會說服溝通怎麼樣提出數據來告訴工程委員會沒有在新的修法裡面我們沒有任何的想要讓建立這個聯能政府有下降甚至我可以讓他提升我覺得這個這個可能在要有一點說服的過程或者怎麼說明"},{"start":366.733,"end":381.375,"text":"這個已經是三家以上這是70年前的事情一甲子的那70年前跟現在的通訊環境完全不一樣完全不同不同的通訊環境然後以前公告在縣府門口"},{"start":382.717,"end":407.652,"text":"公司本人要去領標 外面就圍起來啦投標也是 你本人要去投標外面就擋著你 不讓你去投標那現在電子領標 電子投標所有的公告都在電子採購網那我們還有其他配套措施機關預算通過的時候適當時機 他就必須公告這個採購預算 採購的相關計畫所以等標期也拉長"},{"start":408.613,"end":415.65,"text":"所以我們雖然說改成一家就可以開票那反而比例反而會促成更多人去投票"},{"start":416.613,"end":423.318,"text":"反而會刺激更多人去投標會減少一家投標的這個情形這是我的判斷"},{"start":446.713,"end":472.927,"text":"但我就要講就是說他是我們挑戰的不是我跟你講的不是你現在講這些東西的對錯而是一般民眾對於你剛剛所講到為什麼當時要三加來標他有一個歷史的因素那這個歷史因素會導致當時雖然這樣做當時是這樣做可是他後遺症很多那現在的環境又走到哪裡根本不需要這樣做所以以前我們治療肚子痛"},{"start":474.88,"end":502.326,"text":"當時的肚子痛的用藥雖然它很多副作用但是當時它是最有效的方法現在科技藥已經走到這裡了我們治療肚子痛根本就不需要這個我們有新的藥這新的藥吃下去不但肚子痛更快好而且還沒有後遺症我的意思就是說你要去說服不大家都習慣了嘛對不對 我阿嬤我肚子痛她老是拿那個她有教阿嬤不用用這個現在還有更厲害的"},{"start":503.602,"end":522.318,"text":"各位你懂我在講什麼巴勒葉 巴辣對 以前那個配方那個秘方很多所以這就是我說的社會認知以前那很有效但是社會不知道公共財產委員會你們經過了什麼樣的時間的演變很多的方法所以今天已經要希望走到這裡來"},{"start":523.419,"end":542.655,"text":"所以我認為這個很重要第二個我們這個採購法裡面我有一個像96條我們這一次修法裡面我看到我們還是沒有去修說我們這裡面96條寫說機關於招標文件中規定優先採購取得政府認可之環境保護標章使用許可"},{"start":543.715,"end":555.741,"text":"但我看現在環境部基本上在這個資源循環推動法裡面他已經規定他已經不再去談環境標章的這個產品他是直接跟你講說"},{"start":558.801,"end":575.695,"text":"這個依22條核准之循環產品或循環服務或其他綠色意涵之產品或服務換言之在環境部的資源循環推動法裡面它其實更廣泛的在說明這個所謂的綠色採購"},{"start":577.355,"end":603.04,"text":"但我們好像還只限於環境標章主委 這個應該要好 這個我們會遵照委員的意見來做修正應該納進 現在新的資源循環推動法也行政院還正在審議啦對對對所以應該不要 他修好了結果我們的公共整合採購法又用舊的邏輯跟概念在講好 這部分我們遵照委員的意見來修正好 謝謝 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166779","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166779","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58864d8e205d09dd6beeb09d831e702117aea507db77ca69180c1acf7fe19f66a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:18:54 - 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僱主要幫他提幾%"},{"start":566.39,"end":594.038,"text":"6%對不對農民退休儲金只要農民在10%以內他拿多少政府就拿多少最高10%換言之如果一個年輕的農民他可以在基本工資的3萬元的額度他每個月用10%3000政府要拿3000出來大家有20%就有6000塊一個月存6000國軍目前短疫期志願士官兵有沒有這樣一個退休的一個制度來保障他有沒有"},{"start":595.666,"end":611.146,"text":"有沒有來你們在找的時候我告訴你我是建議副部長你聽一下其實我覺得對於這些短一期的自願意識官兵你要提供給一般勞工一般農民"},{"start":611.894,"end":630.524,"text":"更高更強的退休的保障退伍的保障為什麼因為他不是退休他不是到了65歲60歲他退下來他是要去轉業所以他需要一個創業或轉業的資本如果說今天國防部可以研議我舉例我打個舉例比如說他這10年"},{"start":632.265,"end":646.712,"text":"他前兩年你每年幫他存10%他的信奉的10%放在他的退休專戶你甚至讓他去買什麼 買TISA 買ETF都可以讓他投資基金三四年調整到12.5%每兩年調整2.5%"},{"start":649.933,"end":667.788,"text":"最後兩年你幫他存20%你覺得回去請你們算一下如果用這個方式你可以幫我們短一期的自營士官兵他服役的年限到了他退伍了 他要轉業了他是不是可以存一筆相當足夠的轉業或創業資本您覺得勒 夠不夠"},{"start":671.343,"end":687.342,"text":"這是一個值得研究的一個方案可不可以按照這個構想提出一個方案來跟我報告我在財政委員會我們今天主席也站起來了我要告訴你其實我們鼓勵什麼強化國人尤其是年輕人的退休保障"},{"start":688.566,"end":702.291,"text":"讓他們在年輕的時候他們付出了青春 付出了歲月國家給他在未來的生活他是要 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無"},{"start":562.152,"end":586.998,"text":"國防與國防安全最後一個寫無那個無是指機密性是無機密性這是我們新的精準機密的辦法所以這個都是無機密性的無機密性那你有機密性的才有問題啊有機密性的我剛問來全部都是機密那個人員編制的確是機密是機密是機密喔"},{"start":588.646,"end":618.046,"text":"好 那是機密我們就要保護現源編制是機 現源編制是機密好 是機密的話我們就遵照你的意思是機密但是你還是跟我們要很多多數的立委站在一起我們一起為軍人加薪來努力好不好我們當然願意替軍人但是要配合整體政府的政策來 接著請阮清華 阮市長很重要喔好 請阮市長阮市長您上來喔股市就上三萬點了"},{"start":620.031,"end":626.614,"text":"你不信你上去看看這個3萬點3萬點已經OK了本席在這裡喊了好幾年了從1萬點到2萬點到3萬點穩穩的站穩了3萬點會不會"},{"start":643.715,"end":664.115,"text":"股市很難預估啦但是目前的就是我們就是管理AI也好或者是高速運算也好等等這些因為我們是站在對的一方所以我們的產業的發展其實是未來是但是現在市場都說政府不要讓他漲太多不要超過三萬點這個是真的嗎"},{"start":666.492,"end":681.708,"text":"今天已經超過3萬點了對 你們在押所以聽說你們都開始在偷賣台積電啊你有沒有在賣國安基金的台積電國安基金的我們不能賣你都不會賣嗎我們退場前我們都不賣 沒有賣退場前都沒有賣什麼時候退場退場就要看委員會來決議"},{"start":687.794,"end":715.063,"text":"你不會突然明天說我這個禮拜就要退場那你東西全部賣完啦就要看委員會怎麼做決議啦那決議退場我跟委員報告我們退場也不會說一天兩天就賣掉了我們要看市場的狀況好啦 我想三萬點喔是一個很重要的關卡我們希望經濟繼續成長那大家拼經濟全民一起共同來努力那也不要打壓啦"},{"start":715.68,"end":732.766,"text":"股票才剛剛漲 你們就一直在打壓不大好啦而且你們八大行庫也偷偷一直在壓盤啊讓它自由的發展 好不好我們是尊重市場機制啦 不會壓啦謝謝羅委員 謝謝接下來我們請中央嘉賓委員"}]}},{"id":"166777","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166777","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b588a9c7658038bbf1f2e37ed2c5933891aaea507db77ca6918d9703f2b8768d29e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:58:24 - 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好所以我想這個聲明如果你們都看過了然後剛剛我也快速聽到考選部這邊說會再跟運動部積極的溝通做討論跟調整跟修改 對嗎所以不是只會討論是真的會做修改 對嗎目前其實所有的命題大綱並都沒有修改沒有修改喔所以命題大綱並沒有修改可是關於考科的部分呢它只是影響配分而已"},{"start":69.551,"end":79.501,"text":"好 可是那我們來講一下喔可是如果考選部的意見是這樣那運動部你們的意見是什麼我們是配合著做這個考科的一個整併的一個做法"},{"start":80.12,"end":104.308,"text":"可是對於你們要禁用的人才專業度是夠的嗎或者是這個專他們這個考科的設計是可以符合你們運動部對於未來相關行政人員的想像嗎現階段在現有的考科的數量之下目前這個狀況我認為是比較現階段那請問市長你覺得可以持續用多少年或者是我們的相關公務人員考進來之後他們後續的增能如何可以跟得上你們運動部未來的政策規劃"},{"start":105.527,"end":125.819,"text":"對於社會有反省批判的這個能力對於一個公務人員來說是重要的沒有錯但是就現有的狀況來說不同類別的領域都需要在考試的時候被考慮進去這個我覺得認同我們對行政上面這一塊當時是建議把社會學跟體育行政把它併在一起一開始的時候建議是如此的"},{"start":126.559,"end":148.926,"text":"那所以我們現在看到12月24號修正發布的考科就是行政法第一科第二科是世界體育史跟運動社會學第三運動自然科學第四體育行政跟管理所以你們認為這樣就夠了所以部長也可以接受這個說法嗎運動部的部長李揚也可以接受這個說法嗎目前是這樣子目前是可以那你們打算幾年內做調整還是你們如何預告未來的調整機制"},{"start":149.841,"end":167.8,"text":"因為其實在我們看來體育行政人員他重要的其實是素養他必須要有社會學等下你說重要的是什麼素養什麼樣的素養素養太含糊了我們光是中小學要定義素養就非常的困難那就行政人員你如何定義素養"},{"start":168.814,"end":191.589,"text":"他必須要有一個對社會學這個反思批判的這個能力去充分的了解社會發展脈動但是在行政學上面他也必須要有必定的一個素養否則在行政在公務人員當中他必須要有一定的行政能力他對於行政法規行政法這件事情他必須要有所理解同樣的道理在自然科學類也是一樣的"},{"start":191.929,"end":209.019,"text":"我們不會需要他知道去如何計算最大攝氧量但是對於運動科學包含科技的元素在他的認知當中在未來推動體育行政的過程裡面他需要有這樣子的素養所以在未來推動政策上面才會跟社會的期待可以吻合"},{"start":209.679,"end":235.939,"text":"你剛講我完全認同 次長我完全認同我們來看下一張可是我要提醒你們不要忘記了目前所有相關的體育弊案或者是相關的輿情討論其實有好一些你們都沒有兼顧到包含兒少 包含性平 包含運動員權益所以為什麼我剛剛願意讓你把素養講完就是我在看到目前的考科設計當然就考科設計不見得可以看到這些可能還要看到考題的設計"},{"start":236.9,"end":241.065,"text":"可是我的意思是說就您剛剛的回應我的答案說是素養然後你談到運動科學談到運動行政這些我都認同可是兒少忽略了性平忽略了運動員權益忽略了所以我也要拜託你們持續再帶回去討論因為這些議題絕對會是你們運動部的重中之重"},{"start":258.283,"end":280.684,"text":"相關兒少議題 性平議題 運動員權益您來自運動產業界 您一定知道過去所有 包含王宏偉遠剛問到體育班的事情他就是兒少的議題 他就是性平的議題然後孩子們由小到大在體育班面對就是運動員權益的問題所以你不要告訴我這個不含在你們的素養裡頭所以我就時間有限 我就積極的建議我希望你們兩個月內提供相關評估報告"},{"start":282.465,"end":309.616,"text":"給教文還有司法法制的委員在兒少性平運動員權益還有您剛剛所說的素養運動科學相關你們的規劃給一個報告給所有的委員好嗎有辦法嗎我要運動部這邊運動部我要請運動部先回答可以三個月嗎因為這個東西因為素養的這件事情在考題設計上它有它的一個困難度因為你們運動部要先有態度考選部才能follow對不對好三個月是嗎那考選部這邊呢"},{"start":310.888,"end":316.47,"text":"是不是容我們就是共同來我們會有一個工作小組來討論好不好我們就三個月沒問題好來再來謝謝那考選部請回接下來請運動部繼續留步我們來談一下運動產業中心為什麼要把這個題目拉出來說我不知道次長你有沒有參加過運動相關諮詢的委員會議在第六次運動部諮詢小組會議的紀錄裡面有一段話很棒"},{"start":335.856,"end":357.313,"text":"有一個參與的委員他說國家運動產業中心目前的組織還有任務設計都不是李洋部長的規劃建議部長可以參考韓國跟日本的行政法人經驗例如國外將法人業務包含運動博物館運動誠信防堵的做法"},{"start":357.853,"end":382.546,"text":"透過組織 透過任務的調整可以讓行政法人的業務不要直線於運動產業讓法人作為運動部在業務推動上的夥伴非常重要當時鄭麗君副院長也表示認同她甚至還說了國家運動產業發展中心是行政法人而不是運動部的附屬機關"},{"start":383.807,"end":411.802,"text":"如果我們對於國家運動產業中心有這個法人高度的想像甚至認為他不應該附屬於運動部那我們來看實際做法可以有什麼來下一張目前運動產業中心相關的規劃因為之前是體育署全權主導到了運動部之後我們看到所有諮詢小組委員在歷次會議上提出的建議一項都沒有被運動部參裁"},{"start":412.822,"end":432.618,"text":"一項都沒有喔連鄭麗君副院長說的話也沒有被參採那既然是全新的運動部有了新的部長相關的組織跟編制也都是新的我必須要說我們如何參考國外的經驗然後把現在所有諮詢委員的建議都放進來做一個法人專業執行的規劃的空間"},{"start":435.6,"end":455.603,"text":"目前我們看到相關法人你們編制是100人運動部本部是400位其實就這個比例上我也還蠻想知道你們如何想像一 他不要是下屬關係二 產業中心他的法人專業角色可以協助運動部變成很重要的夥伴你們如何想像這個可能性"},{"start":456.164,"end":471.448,"text":"我們其實現在在法人的工作上面是依據設置條例上面的那幾項八大任務去執行他們的沒錯沒錯就是你剛講的這八大任務完全沒有參採好幾次諮詢小組裡面各個專業委員給的建議更不要說這些專業委員是來自於"},{"start":475.449,"end":493.2,"text":"有行政院的請託然後有所有專家學者的推薦然後大家不斷的在諮詢會議上把過往對於運動改革的想像全部都交給你們了但是我覺得就算百分之一也好十分之一也好目前看到的是零耶所以就是你剛剛說的那個沒錯是零"},{"start":494.341,"end":512.504,"text":"好 繼續不會是0啦 因為其實鄭副院長在那一次因為我最後只有我只參加那一次啦前面的諮詢會議我當時並沒有參與在這個過程當中我清楚的知道鄭副院長的交代我們也一再的跟我們三個法人說法人絕對不是部的附屬機關"},{"start":513.425,"end":535.944,"text":"你們有你們獨立行使你們職權尤其是搭配著國家的政策方向去執行內涵在政策上面的內涵去由他們去執行這一塊我們期待我們的中心能夠有更獨立自主的一個運作方式他們先在他們的董事會去擬定出來他們的策略方向之後會直接的去進行他們絕對不是我們附屬的一個機關"},{"start":536.944,"end":559.698,"text":"謝謝次長說得這麼清楚你剛已經公開說你們絕對不會讓這個法人變成你們的附屬機關所以未來在預算在資源上拜託運動部要支持這個法人發展他的專業讓他成為運動部非常重要的協同夥伴這個部分我們會再觀察所以我這邊提出來的是相關的評估報告可不可以再兩個月給我們這個我們會再跟你們討論可以嗎請你們同仁帶回去三個月"},{"start":564.44,"end":584.41,"text":"我看你面有難色 三個圍 來好 再來 下一個很荒謬捏 這個藍鞋三次都留會 整年都留會現任的理事長叫做謝典寧可以不用來開會喔說議會有事 出國請假三次都留會你們運動部可以接受喔"},{"start":585.066,"end":608.707,"text":"不能接受對 太好了 不能接受我們該怎麼辦我們因為它畢竟還是一個民間的團體可是它拿你們運動部很多錢我知道 第一件事情我們一定會發函到事實上這個禮拜就會發函出去這禮拜什麼時候要發函應該盡快吧因為我的理解是這樣子的好它會趕快發函到籃球協會記那你們發函的內容會是什麼我們要促請理事會要有所作為"},{"start":609.147,"end":624.041,"text":"有所作為的意思是必須要面對這件事情沒有辦法召開那個會員大會他必須要透過理事會的決定即未來即便理事長不來他都可以繼續召開說得太好了"},{"start":624.341,"end":643.094,"text":"即便理事長刻意不來缺席都還是要召開為什麼要召開很重要相關年度工作計畫收支預算員工待遇表這些都需要會員大會來決議還要報主管機關被查更不要講他們今年3月就要改選了對不對"},{"start":643.874,"end":660.405,"text":"那在改選之前理事長可以這樣放爛擺爛嗎然後運動部沒有作為我覺得我今天聽到你說你們這個禮拜會發函那我給你一個法理上的建議你聽聽看是不是適當根據來下一張之前吳佩奕委員在教文也有問過還有人頭會員的問題攔協被傳出相關的傳聞已久"},{"start":665.749,"end":679.221,"text":"那一樣沒有看到運動部的角色如果按照你們手上有的法理工具叫做國體法第43條對嘛43條是什麼你很清楚對不對進行停職補助或人員懲處那人員懲處會是誰會懲處誰理事長謝典齡"},{"start":685.367,"end":706.248,"text":"我就請相關的籃協必須要積極的面對理事長也要必須積極的面對國人除了棒球之外籃球應該是收看率第二高所以我認為站在國人的期待的角度對於運動部的期待也好對於籃協的角度的期待也好對於這個理事長現任的理事長謝典穎的期待也好都不應該是這個樣子"},{"start":707.649,"end":733.748,"text":"所以我想如果你們就國體法43條已經非常熟悉了你們有應該要用這個法理工具去處理藍協現在的問題我想在輔導人民團體之前一定要先由他們內部的治理先開始因此我剛剛才會說他現在就不治理啊來再回到前一張他三次都留會啦我們會要求理事會先做處理如果理事會還是沒有辦法處理的話我們不排除動用國體法第43條來來次長我們算一下時間我們很務實的說來"},{"start":736.906,"end":757.503,"text":"他現在三次流會對不對我們今天開會現在是1月5號馬上你們發公文好了假設這禮拜發我們來算一下這禮拜發然後他說他下禮拜收到1月的第二週然後他什麼時候要回應你他什麼時候應該要開相關的會議你們有沒有盤算我們目前是希望給他10天的時間請理事會給我們回應"},{"start":759.045,"end":777.944,"text":"10天請理事會收到文之後等一下收到完之後整個算完可能到1月底了啦然後他有沒有召開會議還未知對吧未知喔然後轉眼2月中就要過年了所以在過年前2月1號到2月中過年這段時間你認為你可以期待他們會召開相關會議嗎你們會要求嗎你們會具體要求嗎"},{"start":781.348,"end":807.564,"text":"我們會具體要求理事會做適當的處置因為畢竟他們是會內的事情適當的處置是什麼就是假設理事長不來一樣可以召開好就是這句話理事長不來一樣要召開相關會議為什麼因為三月要改選了是的次長拜託三月要改選如果我們相關改選又讓他沒有辦法完成順利改選我們如何向國人交代然後我們就放任藍協理事會在謝典齡這樣的操控底下"},{"start":808.144,"end":826.837,"text":"完全沒有角色 非常的可怕所以要拜託次長你剛剛的態度非常清楚我非常謝謝你的態度正向面對就是會一 發文要求來寫要積極面對就算理事長不出席 他們一樣要召開會議相關的員工待遇啦 年度計畫啦 工作報告甚至如何去處理三月的改選 對不對"},{"start":827.898,"end":845.499,"text":"好謝謝我們就期待後續的狀況再來最後一個關於禁藥測驗榜賽事報名這件事情我想你們都知道相關問題我就不再贅述可是因為這個問題真的很大牽扯到所有要因著體育賽事而升學的孩子們從小到大"},{"start":846.46,"end":863.657,"text":"各式各樣的這個狀況那可是你們運動部在過去體育署一年有三千萬委託禁藥基金會做相關的測驗而這個基金會又委託給民間單位結果這個系統出包沒有辦法做禁藥測驗結果相關的賽事就說那不用測驗可以來報名"},{"start":865.559,"end":885.373,"text":"這個非常荒謬可是禁藥它只要靠測驗就好了嗎它明明回到教育系統裡面它要去談可是我知道你們之前因為回應立法院很多委員對於禁藥的關心所以你們做這個測驗的平台但是它沒有往下教育的扎根它又出現平台的困境結果又限制了很多學生的報名狀況讓很多的選手非常的焦慮我要提醒您"},{"start":889.196,"end":905.554,"text":"所有的學生聯賽全中運全大運全民運全育會甚至是身心障礙的運動會都跟這個禁藥測驗有關那現在你們未來打算怎麼辦我們不排除因為事實上我在上個禮拜才知道這件事情上禮拜你才知道上禮拜才知道"},{"start":905.794,"end":928.476,"text":"我們很多學生跟我們澄清他們因為這個賽事綁住禁藥測驗我理解因為平常這個業館不是我在負責是 您辛苦了但是上禮拜我看到了這個業務我其實不排除我還沒有跟我們運科中心的執行長講因為現階段是那一個廠商他十字大開口他用一個很簡單的東西要求禁藥經紀人跟他用非常高的金額要把他綁死而且他要求"},{"start":929.056,"end":957.498,"text":"未來只能跟他繼續預約這完全不符合政府採購法的規範因此我們有在思考是不是要請我們運科中心的科技處幫助我們去開發相對不是那麼困難的軟體這件事情我們會來就後續的處理只是短暫時間之內因為不要去影響到學生參賽的資格所以短暫時間之內我們沒有強制的要求必須要提出上課的教育證明"},{"start":958.018,"end":976.846,"text":"才可以報名 這個是個非常臨時的做法因為不可能因為沒有那個授課的證明而不讓選手報名對整個他們未來的參賽資格跟可能的升學受到太大太大的影響因此短時間的權宜知識是先不要要求他們但是"},{"start":977.606,"end":995.883,"text":"教育的這件事情會持續的要求繼續做下去同一個時間我們的ADEL就是我們的Antidoping Education Learning System這件事情已經被WADA認可其實我們可以透過WADA本身的ADEL這個系統直接透過那個系統讓我們的學生去上課因為這個也是中文的系統"},{"start":996.343,"end":1012.752,"text":"我跟你說WADA這個系統可能也會造成另外一個問題我們本來想要解決問題A就會製造問題B我認為有幾個建議你們聽聽看一回歸教育本質非常重要不要只是測驗我再說一次回歸教育本質不要只是測驗二測驗到底要不要綁著比賽這是第二件事情"},{"start":1013.152,"end":1037.876,"text":"再來有沒有相關行政法人的國家運動禁藥管制機構因為這件事情如同你剛剛說的他必須要跟國際接軌所有我們學生這些對於禁藥的認知相關資訊的保留都會影響到他日後參與國際賽事也代表台灣的體育產業對這件事情是有態度的我們的運動主管機關對於禁藥的管理是有想法的必須跟國際接軌所以我想相關的研議我們辦公室後續會再跟運動部討論好 謝謝謝謝主席好 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謝謝主席政府採購法現行的法規是針對拒絕往來廠商不得參加投標或作為決標對象或分包廠商最重是處分三年時間但是很多不肖廠商當他的處分時間到了之後他會繼續的投標"},{"start":25.695,"end":53.734,"text":"而因為當時的受處分都會影響它的一個品質事實上在前年我們警政署移民署和台灣銀行去採購防彈衣跟防彈頭盔等安全設備就出現了重大的瑕疵使得很多的基層員警非常的擔心自己的安全後來本席也踢爆"},{"start":55.255,"end":80.894,"text":"這個得標的廠商也就是我剛才講幾乎是全台僅用房貸背心有瑕疵的廠商他竟然有7次被列為採購黑名單可以知道這樣一個黑心廠商不管是原來的廠商或者他在利用另外去登記其他的廠商名字或者用他的兒子再繼續的去得標"},{"start":81.815,"end":108.497,"text":"然後整個去危及我們京城警察的安全所以這問題是很重大的另外我在前年4月也曾經踢爆我們中科院去採購非氮製造原物料的公司在被發現洗產地之後一樣的被桃園地檢署後來就被起訴了"},{"start":109.378,"end":131.338,"text":"但是非常離譜的事情這個廠商被中科院列為拒絕往來戶之後竟然可以繼續在國防部得標更離譜的是他已經被起訴然後國防部照樣招標 照樣可以得標所以為了遏止不肖廠商"},{"start":132.279,"end":154.977,"text":"的這樣的一個行徑 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蕭希希 邱薇薇來好 謝謝周委好 那麼首先先有請運動部跟考選部運動部的黃次長和考選部的劉部長請劉部長跟黃次長"},{"start":26.98,"end":49.573,"text":"好部長好次長好那麼今天因為主要是來討論就是有關於未來這個公務人員在體育類別的考科的做更動那麼剛剛親戚委員比較關注的是有關於世界體育史跟運動社會學兩科就合併那麼我在這裡呢我想請教的就是說因為看到"},{"start":50.873,"end":72.273,"text":"運動部本來希望能夠將現在的運動自然科學在這個科目調整為運動科技學那麼可是為什麼後來在考選部的你們可能是不是有召開什麼諮詢會議等等之類的然後最後變成還是沒有要做更動那本期比較好奇的就是說當時為什麼"},{"start":74.535,"end":84.389,"text":"體育部會有這樣的想法希望把運動自然科學改成運動科技學但是最後在考選部這裡定調的時候又說又不改這原因是什麼"},{"start":85.109,"end":105.926,"text":"公務員報告我們考選部不是不改等一下我會再因為我們跟黃次長有討論過我先說第一個就是說因為更改科目需要一年我們目前為止115那是來不及了所以如果要更改的話因為他必須要通過第一個要刪科目 增科目然後命題大綱要重新訂"},{"start":107.047,"end":123.951,"text":"然後跟著要過考試規則那也就是要在明年一月前完成所以基本上我們會在今年來啟動相關的一個討論流程不過至於說是不是要這樣那我們一定還是尊重運動部這份意見那這邊是不是請黃次長來做說明"},{"start":127.464,"end":146.846,"text":"委員你好運動科技這個元素希望能夠放進來考科是因為在整個運動產業的發展當中接下來從現在開始其實科技的元素必須要有所以我們同仁們的建議才會是說應該要把運動科技的元素放進來至於要不要把它真正改成一個考科"},{"start":147.286,"end":160.34,"text":"這一件事情其實還有待還有一些空間去做調整但是最重要的一個元素是我們是希望能夠把科技的元素放到未來的考科裡面的一個項目裡面而不是一下子就把整個考科給改掉"},{"start":161.068,"end":179.277,"text":"好了解了那么所以看起来一个是有关于就是说我们这个考科的改变因为它涉及到考生的权益所以必须要有个过渡时间那么但是就是就这个方向来讲未来还是也许就在下个年度就有可能将运动自然科学然后改为运动科技"},{"start":180.117,"end":207.238,"text":"學的意思對不對跟委員報告這一點我會跟運動部再來確認不過目前為止我們跟黃市長討論是說他們對於說需不需要去更動這個科目名稱其實運動部自己內部還在做最後確認那另外一個做法是檢視目前運動自然科學既有的命題大綱都要做修正這也可以所以如果請教一下如果說就命題大綱做修正的話還必須要再修改規則嗎還是說你們自己內部就可以做了"},{"start":209.22,"end":214.508,"text":"他還是一樣要從運動部提過來因為我們基本上提到考選部 考選部還要在送立法院"},{"start":215.251,"end":233.985,"text":"就不用了 就只是調整命題內涵的核心項目但是還是要跟考生做一個公佈所以我們的標準作業流程是希望是當我們會事先會商然後運動部提一個命題大綱草案過來然後我們就會來召開專家會議還有用人機關的會議來進行確認一旦確認以後其實就可以進行調整"},{"start":239.369,"end":249.584,"text":"好的 那麼基本上因為本席就是比較好奇為什麼後來沒有改不過就是本席也很同意就是剛剛次長和部長的說法那運動自然科學的確可以就是擴大它的"},{"start":251.141,"end":269.334,"text":"核心的考科的內容然後涵蓋就是最新的一些科技的項目那麼但是至於就是說是要不要去更動那個考科的科名的部分的話就本席在這邊也尊重部長跟次長這裡的看法好那接下來我想就是有只是詢問有關運動部"},{"start":271.475,"end":298.146,"text":"這個議題就可以請部長先回座首先本席想要詢問的就是說其實運動部在之前曾經有推動過青春動資券當時是希望能夠鼓勵16歲以上到22歲的族群可以多多去運動所以有發放青春動資券可是看起來現在運動部準備要把青春動資券讓它轉型變成一個全民的運動幣"},{"start":299.786,"end":320.394,"text":"那麼就像16歲以上所有的國民都可以去抽籤來取得這個運動幣可是呢本席在這邊就是比較就政策的方向我想請教次長就說因為原來青春鬥志軍的目的是希望多鼓勵年輕人去運動可是你現在改為運動這個"},{"start":322.867,"end":340.222,"text":"改為運動幣之後會不會可能會排擠掉原本來要鼓勵專款就是要給年輕人所使用的這樣的一個運動幣從機制上來看事實上是有可能沒有錯但是就過去兩年的執行"},{"start":340.882,"end":359.341,"text":"青春動資券它的動資率大概只有大概到66%左右也就是說有30%左右的費用是沒有被兌現出來的而運動部在這件事情上面是我們希望擴大因為有這樣子政策上的引導吸引更多的人需要運動的不是只有16歲到22歲的人"},{"start":360.942,"end":385.86,"text":"而事實上是全民我們是希望透過這樣政策的引導可以增加22歲以上的人也因為有這樣的刺激讓他們可以多一點點運動的動機是的 因為就像您剛剛說的就是原來的青春度資券看起來它的使用率也許只有六成左右那運動部應該是不是要去思考到為什麼只有六成的這個年輕的學生族群們他們會去使用然後剩下的"},{"start":387.261,"end":404.028,"text":"40%就浪费了那么可是看起来你们现在的做法是说那算了那40%的这个没有领到的那我们就把它整个扩大然后连到原来的60%的学生可能他可以一定可以领到的那之后他可能就被稀释掉了"},{"start":404.788,"end":425.054,"text":"對 那這個部分的話是不是未來應該也要就是說還是要有一定的配額是要給這些年輕的學生他如果說在一定的時間譬如說到了年終或三分之二的時間沒有來申請的話就可以再回到給一般的民眾去使用這樣的話也能夠確保就是鼓勵年輕人多多的運動"},{"start":426.074,"end":453.109,"text":"謝謝委員的建議其實過去青春動資圈 領用相對的少其實我們看在區域上面來看都會區其實是還好是那些非都會區的那個領用的情況沒有比較好因此我們現在要做的一件事情除了現在現行的方法要走之外我們要去增加非都會區的廠商願意進來去接受動資或運動幣的這件事情也就是我們希望能夠觸及更多的人來進行運動"},{"start":455.75,"end":459.951,"text":"總之就是本席提出了這樣的一個議題我也觀察到有這樣的情況那希望就是說次長這裡可以回去再思考未來如何讓運動幣還是能夠維持它原來的好意就是要鼓勵年輕人多運動那接下來我要請教的就是說因為現在運動部已經成立了三個中心"},{"start":479.875,"end":484.419,"text":"一署到三中心但是你們辦公的場所到目前為止看起來也都還是一直是用租用的你們原來的有些場地確實都提供給全國性的體育團體來租用事實上就是說從我們預算書裡面可以看到你們原來的編列的租金的收入大概都是1700萬"},{"start":502.876,"end":520.736,"text":"但是實際上到決算的時候只有1452萬那麼依照過去的新聞報導有講說實質上有些少數的協會還會接欠房租那不知道運動部對於這樣的一個狀況是怎麼樣處理呢到底是哪些協會有欠租"},{"start":522.867,"end":549.959,"text":"我們基本上我們都理解單項運動協會在經營上面有他們的一個長時間的一個困難我們在運動部成立之後如果一下子就把他們請他們離開體育大樓對他們的運作上面來說會產生非常非常大的一個困擾因此當時在成立運動部之前的規劃的時候就並沒有也不太敢說請他們離開那因為我們現在那你們現在的規劃是怎麼樣呢如果說他還繼續欠繳"},{"start":552.165,"end":564.891,"text":"欠繳的部分我們一定會去追回來的可是按照你們自己的作業規定欠繳三個月以上就可以終止契約了所以你剛剛講的那些欠繳的協會到底欠繳的情形有多嚴重有沒有哪些協會是超過一年兩年都不繳房租的"},{"start":568.717,"end":575.361,"text":"抱歉委員這一部分的資料現在我手上沒有可不可以容許我回去查完之後再交給你好那就麻煩次長那就請你提供給我相關的這個協會有積欠房租的情形好不好讓我們了解那當然就是說是我們可以知道你們其實原來是好意啦就是提供這個便宜的"},{"start":587.968,"end":601.54,"text":"租金 而且提供很多的空間去給這些體育團體 但是問題是說你們自己現在運動部每年還要燒掉千萬的租金去向別的大樓 像貫德大樓去租辦公室 目前是"},{"start":602.546,"end":619.267,"text":"對 那這樣的情況你們有沒有應該要檢討就是未來有些部分的辦公場地你們要收回然後來作為你們自己運動部的場地使用否則的話就是說你們租金的收入也不好但是你們另外又花了更多的錢去到外面去付房租"},{"start":620.589,"end":640.295,"text":"這個是現階段的挑戰其實基本上如果我們即便把整個出租的空間全部收回來也不足以讓我們的全民署跟兩個中心共同來使用因此我們目前正積極在尋找另外一個建築的空地看看有沒有可能去蓋一個大樓來讓我們自己來使用"},{"start":641.684,"end":651.996,"text":"好 那這個議題也是很重要因為都涉及到人民的公帑而且看起來你們這個115年度的預算光是租用辦公室三層就要花1472萬"},{"start":655.386,"end":676.944,"text":"就像我说的如果说你们原来出租出去能够达到的租金的收入可以去cover你们现在的所要付的房租的话那或许还情有可原还可以体谅但是如果说你们自己连租给别人的租金都收不到都收不起然后还要花更多的钱去租其他的办公大楼"},{"start":677.284,"end":683.313,"text":"好 那我認為說運動部這個部分的話就要好好的去思考而且對於欠繳房租的協會一定要趕快積極的去吹繳 好吧好的好 那就這樣 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝洪小玲"}]}},{"id":"166772","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166772","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58925b3f0111aa03663011a53eea80ce167d23619189f10e6ce3b48d9307feac045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:32:29 - 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請我們工程會陳主委陳副主委請委員長主委 副主委 早一向工程會在本席當立委之後我非常重視雖然人家號稱小單位但是我認為非常重要的職責"},{"start":32.154,"end":58.902,"text":"為什麼 全國公共工程所有的合約 所有的析資一定要公共工程委員會他來做一些前提的規劃那當然 我在想我要談的議題跟昭緯談的議題差不多第一個 國防部最近"},{"start":60.67,"end":85.917,"text":"標案爭議頻傳這裡面啊就是要注意喔 請主委跟副主委要注意喔小蝦米吃大金翼人家不是要公平嗎但是我不管國防部 國防部過去他們在做事情當然他是以實際為準但是20年是這樣20年以後"},{"start":89.758,"end":116.108,"text":"的廠商思想邏輯跟他做生意的方法完全不一樣所以變成投機起腳的人就會變成公司小鯨魚他還是會吃大鯨魚這個亂象就請諸委一定要去注意那我還特別要提就是當我們疫情最嚴重"},{"start":117.248,"end":144.898,"text":"我們的蛋最嚴重的時候我就感覺到很奇怪啊資本額50億可以飆到1億多這個就是說資本額不對稱為什麼要設計資本額資本額不大當然就不能飆到我一個限制的金額啊你不能50萬的金額他公司破產都無法去賠償這個我要建議我們工程會要有所規範"},{"start":146.601,"end":160.201,"text":"就像很簡單啊你剛才所講的所有公司的有些規範是經濟不管但是我的看法跟你相反只要跟工程會有關的"},{"start":161.4,"end":190.106,"text":"公共工程委員會當然要管啊亂象你當然要去就政啊你亂象雖然沒法但是公共工程委員會組織架構這麼嚴謹你很簡單啊你要發現亂象要替老百姓該修的就要修像國防部他只有更改進出口41天他就可以標到這個案"},{"start":191.764,"end":214.62,"text":"這個很亂象就會變成剛才召委所講開茶葉店資本額10萬他可以飆到幾千萬的工程在台南裝潢公司他又去把這個經濟部把所有的業務把它增加他竟然可以飆到6億的炸彈"},{"start":216.738,"end":233.694,"text":"這叫什麼 這叫做小蝦米吃大鯨魚這類所以我們的法律沒有規範啊 你沒有錯啊但是問題亂象已經出來 既然亂象出來公共工程委員會勢必想辦法去應對"},{"start":235.436,"end":255.539,"text":"那當然國防部有沒有錯國防部當然也沒有錯啊因為我立人來就是這樣可是你到底我們公共工程委員會不是指責你們的錯誤可是社會亂象出來的時候我們租款機關就要未以從謀想像如何還備不是嗎"},{"start":256.42,"end":266.901,"text":"主委在這個部分本席當然講這些沒有指責公共工程委員會但是我也不贊成你去推給經濟部如果是這樣的話"},{"start":268.291,"end":289.153,"text":"那我們存在的必要是什麼存在的必要就是跟公共工程有關的有關法令規範因為任何一個公家機關是依照我們的準則來的所以在這個部分既然有社會亂象是否針對這些問題來研究因為我們接下來又要修華"},{"start":290.214,"end":299.637,"text":"修法當然不足的地方盡快修啊我們行政院版發生這個問題就以表現在執政黨發現這種亂象你們自動自發去做防備動作"},{"start":304.827,"end":313.233,"text":"主委本席提出這個看法你的看法如何好 謝謝委員的指教的確是如果說機關採購為了滿足或達到採購的品質我們希望機關在採購的評分上"},{"start":322.699,"end":351.794,"text":"或者是合約的要求上必須如果是專業採購那必須增加這個投標廠商的專業的時機另外他的履約能力如剛才委員所提的他的資本額很小但是這個標取的標案很大所以我們就比較考慮他有沒有這個履約能力或後續的保險的相關措施來作為決標的要件這個工程會來研究必要的時候那麼新增一些指引這個部分主委"},{"start":352.654,"end":378.767,"text":"因為我一向對於公共工程委員會陳主委跟陳副主委你們在領導之下的委員會我很少在指責你們我認為都是用鼓舞的方式建言的意識讓你們去把所謂這個亂象因為我說實在身為一個民意代表反對小蝦米去吃大金魚這一類叫做亂象"},{"start":380.131,"end":393.858,"text":"好這是要亂象所以我要拜託主委針對這些部分真的要盡快未以籌謀緩緩措施要把它因為我們政府機關本來發現問題就要趕快改進啊那這個亂象是真的這樣繼續下去對執政黨對"},{"start":401.002,"end":421.859,"text":"工程會都沒有什麼幫助啊他只有害處啊那既然是這樣你們沒有包庇的嫌疑那為什麼不能去修華去你最起碼如果我跟主委建議啦公共工程委員會該有的作為你就行文給各單位我管你國防部"},{"start":422.915,"end":452.518,"text":"我管你什麼單位你以後針對這些敬請貴單位要遵守公共工程裡面的公平競爭以及不利於老百姓的東西那這個部分你要去行文要告知他們提醒他們最起碼你們有動作所以主委我是建議這樣修華如果來不及要行文把你們立場講得很清楚"},{"start":453.058,"end":475.219,"text":"也就是老百姓遺溺的東西請全國標案各單位執行單位要去注意這些細節我想 主委 你的看法呢好 我們會遵照委員的指導來研議相關的含釋或相關的憲章的指引來喊醒各機關"},{"start":475.839,"end":493.739,"text":"最起碼人家才知道陳金德主委跟陳沪主委你們有作為啊對不對至於要不要修華來耶穌那是另外一個層次嘛行政院竟然要提出版本這其實很好啊把它規劃下去我相信這個小蝦米吃大鯨魚這個問題啊"},{"start":495.521,"end":522.567,"text":"我坦白講也不是你們叫他做也不是國防部要去包庇他是存在的一個亂象所以我還是希望主委這個部分要特別最後因為有很多事情人家說這個什麼叫做有利標什麼叫做有利標看起來這個就是他有後台有能力去做這個標案但是站在你們的立場"},{"start":524.236,"end":533.448,"text":"站在你們的立場 當然是公平公正這是最重要 也是你們的職責那我還是希望再度提醒我們主委"},{"start":535.247,"end":563.441,"text":"刪除三家的限制說實在的這些萬萬不可所以要重新考慮都聽聽協則專家他們的看法以及這不是找毛環這是基本的要素也就是投標廠商只有一家他就可以去標說實在主委以一般思考邏輯來講這個部分是不符合邏輯的"},{"start":564.722,"end":580.48,"text":"三家招標你說你第二次我們本來就有降下本來這個制度就有了第一次三家不能開標第二次的話他就沒有這個限制那為什麼要全部第一標就把它取消掉這個真的"},{"start":581.221,"end":596.986,"text":"建議主委跟副主委要稍微要研究一下這個路子後門一開那投標案子會更混亂這一點我特別提醒我們陳主委跟陳副主委一下好不好好 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謝謝主席我們請運動部黃次長請黃次長國訓中心的龔執行長還有運動產業發展中心的鄭董事長謝謝好 請上台好 請問三位今天我們討論的第一題是這個考試吧請問現在考試的這些科目"},{"start":38.581,"end":66.458,"text":"大學的體育系都有教嗎都有都有教好第二個運動部裡頭的公務員是大學體育科系畢業的比例大概多少比例我不知道欸很抱歉因為我們多數有不同類型的公務人員進來包含了一般行政教育行政類的那當然也有體育高考進來的好我要問這一題的原因是啊我們這個大學體育科系的學生啊"},{"start":67.216,"end":86.659,"text":"因為最後都大部分花的時間在當運動員你要叫他來科技難度比較高那一定會有一些不是運動體育科系畢業的他考上體育行政比運動員還容易次長你認同我的說法嗎"},{"start":88.335,"end":109.585,"text":"部分認同因為其實讀體育系的人不是不讀書我是說不是讀體育系的考這些科目是不是外行的來跑進來考他搞不好會考得比較好從考試的本身來說在考試的能力的鑑別度上面他們如果具備體育的素養他們就可以通過考試"},{"start":111.36,"end":136.316,"text":"第一個我關心的課題說有可能外界觀看這些運動部的組成公務員的組成或各縣市的體育局運動局的組成會有這樣的疑慮這第一個就是說我關心這些大學體育科系畢業的學生他們未來的就業現在體育系畢業以後大部分來做什麼"},{"start":137.082,"end":159.123,"text":"做的非常的多啦個人工作是不少比如說個人指導教練現在在業界個人工作指導這個地方的收入非常非常的高這一類是居多的當然也有一些其他從商去了去開健身房的去做個別指導的都有好 那這個運動部我建議你們要跟各大學提議去的"},{"start":159.696,"end":177.121,"text":"去做他們後來直矮的追蹤的時候再確認一下因為其實蠻多學校的體育區後來又加了休閒兩個字因為從市場的需求上面這一類的人才是必要有的那休閒之後就跑去當領隊導遊"},{"start":179.985,"end":202.48,"text":"有這樣子的發展 各式各樣跑去飯店那這很可惜 就是說國家有規劃這樣的一個科系然後這樣的一個訓練 後來沒當到運動沒當這個國家的運動員那如果再從事包括剛剛講 譬如說去做健身教練去做體適能教練 各式各樣的這個都是好事 但是"},{"start":203.3,"end":211.801,"text":"建議還是要去追蹤一下這些體育科系畢業學生啊他們後來的發展 是的第二個我請教這個龔執行長長啊 我剛才回到一個家庭啦兩年前啊 他跟我說有一個孩子啊去國訓中心 全中運的金牌就對了去國訓中心之後說去訓練一兩年之後啊受傷啦拉傷啦 什麼受傷啦"},{"start":232.466,"end":238.99,"text":"就離開了 離開後我就問他現在在做什麼他說現在是十字的工地 在做工人這裡面兩個課題 第一個課題是說這個國家訓練中心訓練完成 或者是被退訓被退訓以後 你們有去追蹤說他現在在做什麼嗎還是退訓後 長江好人推前浪後面還有年輕人的一輩後退訓後你們就不一樣了"},{"start":262.846,"end":286.356,"text":"委員好 跟委員報告一下我們國家運動信任中心是針對運動部這邊的政策執行的一個單位所以他領選一些優秀的選手到我們這邊做長期的一個培訓當培訓結束以後呢選手他有個人個別的一個生涯的發展跟規劃那原則上我們在部裡面有訂一個優秀運動選手的就業輔導跟協助辦法"},{"start":287.777,"end":302.771,"text":"那他必須要達到一定的程度以上的選手我們就會給他後面的一個協助那如果他沒有到達那樣的程度的話可能就是依他個人的一個生涯規範自行發展我是建議這樣啦因為這家長也說要吃母奶啦他說要去訓練 本來也很開心啊"},{"start":308.055,"end":312.778,"text":"全中運金牌 去訓練 訓練後受傷 現在在做工程這聽起來很辛酸 就是說國家本地 加上一位人才 國家本能訓練當然 他是沒有在問這個運動員為什麼去那邊弄個一兩年 出來就受傷啦這個事情可能後面的這些追蹤 我建議啦這個國家 人家在訓練的單位"},{"start":335.838,"end":357.937,"text":"這部分後面還是追蹤一下啦 不能說他的個人意願要不要去做綱理都不知道 這個聽起來都不好可能我們訓練的能量其實也有限我們也不可能說教過一輩子但是這個後面的追蹤 我建議還是要進行好 第三位 我們請這個鄭董事長"},{"start":361.019,"end":379.688,"text":"委員好 鄭董事長你是從公園院過來那顯然這個卓院長或者是李洋部長希望你從這個產業的角度進來這個鄭董事長你現在來這邊也沒多久會不會跟這個體育界格格不入"},{"start":380.661,"end":402.271,"text":"跟委員報告原來在我工業院的業務就是從事運動科技的研發所以對於運動產業相關的業者還有生態有一些熟識當然對運動員稍微有一點距離但是經過這兩個月還有包含像前上個禮拜中華奧運主席的交接都結識了蠻多的運動專業的領袖還有運動員"},{"start":407.759,"end":416.805,"text":"接下來我請問這個次長我們這三大中心啊他們的預算現在夠不夠啊目前運作起來是可以的來 龔執行長 你錢有夠嗎次長說可以啊 你有夠嗎"},{"start":428.105,"end":455.987,"text":"目前來講是就是說我們每年都要會因應那個培訓的選手的多寡會有所調整好 我是建議次長這樣啦就是三大中心包括運動部的預算啦是這個金融邊啦國家不會省這個錢是你們運動部跟三大中心的錢送到立法院我看也沒有人敢動你們的預算啦謝謝委員的支持這大家都支持的事情都是好事情"},{"start":456.838,"end":472.147,"text":"我最後請教一個問題我們的運動員很大部分來自我們花東地區對不對有一部分是有沒有考慮我們的國家訓練中心部分的運動項目把它設在花東"},{"start":472.978,"end":499.893,"text":"目前是有一些訓練的基地是放在台東跟花蓮還有宜蘭我們的水上的有划船的項目就是在宜蘭我是建議的就是說還是做一下這些選手的原來他讀車訓國小 國中 高中或是高雄一隊做一下分析跟運動的項目不要我們大部分人都集運動員某些項目集中在花東"},{"start":500.697,"end":520.495,"text":"叫整間都召去國家信念中心召去中研 沒錯啦整間都召來 其實他就帶他的故鄉最好就整間又召來這個我覺得在以後的配置上這部分也去委託做個研究就是說我們歷年的國家代表隊或國訓中心的成員"},{"start":521.815,"end":537.073,"text":"大部分这个选手来自什么地方有没有必要哪一些运动的项目刚好花莲跟台东环境也适合用地也没有什么困难那大家这样成本都低埃及要混连料"},{"start":538.154,"end":545.517,"text":"我們國家的訓練在那裡之後搞不好那個項目的運動產業就會留在那裡那這個人口啊運動的這個人口就不會外流他就在地嘛訓練後自己的故鄉這塊我是建議運動部也啟動相關的分析看有沒有哪一些項目可以移到花蓮縣跟台東縣然後去做這樣的一個規劃好 以上 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":567.284,"end":568.879,"text":"好 謝謝王逸川委員"}]}},{"id":"166766","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166766","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58c51c4bf71af036c6eeb09d831e7021177d23619189f10e6c8cca5bf7c21932e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:20:03 - 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意圖這邊的敵情跟敵人你是指誰報告現在主要威脅我們的是解放軍"},{"start":35.287,"end":60.943,"text":"就是中華人民共和國的中共的解放軍是不是好那為什麼會有一些我看到那個新聞報導還有媒體很多退將啊是從我們軍中退伍的這些將領常常敵我不分耶常常在替對岸講好話在替我們自己的國防在洩氣啊這個你有什麼看法"},{"start":62.881,"end":82.662,"text":"我想一日為國軍 終生是應該就是要效忠國家這是毫無疑問的那我們之前也對於這個退降如果違反相關法令會對他們的退休分有所苛扣這個新規定出來以後退降 復錄的情況減少"},{"start":83.936,"end":111.877,"text":"不是曙光只有附路啦現在也有人在說可以在台灣裡面對方敵人在台灣裡面安排了有很多第五縱隊的協力者不一定講說他本身就第五縱隊他本身可能看了一些訊息什麼對自己沒有信心然後很容易被影響然後或是被利誘就變成協力者這個你們有沒有什麼在軍中如何讓我們的國軍同袍很清楚的了解我們敵人是誰"},{"start":114.13,"end":135.538,"text":"有 這個我們政戰跟相關的單位現在非常認真的在制定各種計畫要跟我們的官兵宣導相關的知識以及訊息並且我們也頒佈各種各樣的保密措施強化我們的保密作為"},{"start":136.587,"end":149.477,"text":"我們2300萬多的同胞在台灣安身立命每一年花費了這麼多的國防支出其實我們 你縱觀啦 這些年來的總計我們的敵人就只有一個嘛你會認為菲律賓會侵犯我國嗎還是南韓會侵犯我國嗎還是日本會侵犯我國 美國會侵犯我國嗎"},{"start":160.751,"end":176.639,"text":"是不是我們真正的敵人其實歸納起來就只有一個就中華人民共和國對不對是他對我們有領土野心對我們各方面非常的不友好然後窮兵黷武圍台軍演等等結果"},{"start":178.067,"end":198.282,"text":"我覺得我們這個除了今天你講這個都很重要這個是有形的但是新防我覺得也很重要你同不同意非常同意那新防的部分如何加強現在中方對我們的認知戰沒有一天不再進行而且不只是針對我們國軍是針對我們全社會"},{"start":201.451,"end":227.207,"text":"所以我們首先應該要強化我們國軍自己的心防這個我們會如果所說我們陣戰部門有很多計畫另外我們也願意跟整個政府的各個部會一起配合那你說這幾天今年才2026年的第一個禮拜世界的集權國家倒台了好幾個最眼前的例子"},{"start":228.257,"end":252.124,"text":"伊朗先不講 因為他現在正在全面動亂我是認為最後他也會倒台你看他這個委內瑞拉的狀況你有什麼樣的感覺中共不是一直宣傳說他的武器多精良啊他的抵達多好怎麼美國去了他們完全都沒發現美國總統還有美國的國務卿還有美國的國防部親自出來開記者會他們對方都不知道"},{"start":253.234,"end":265.841,"text":"委內瑞拉的總統一個多小時就從美國開始發動行動一個多小時就抓到美國的軍艦上了那中共不是很了不起嗎這個國家不是都是靠中共在撐腰嗎那為什麼會這樣"},{"start":267.472,"end":287.891,"text":"我相信美方裝備的精良程度跟委內瑞拉從俄羅斯以及中國這邊所獲得的武器的水準在這一次行動中展現無疑我要特別講一句就是委內瑞拉還不只是"},{"start":289.54,"end":317.668,"text":"他是哪一國武器的問題他最關鍵的是他的維修保障問題很大他平常的維修是不夠的那這一點對我們來講很重要這個裝備要不斷的維修要更新敵人在進步我們也必須要進步這是踏山之石可以攻錯那同樣的台灣當然要一直精進可是現在預算沒省"},{"start":319.069,"end":345.41,"text":"採購武器等等計畫都延宕那這個責任我看到世界的媒體會講說台灣是不是沒有辦法堅決的表達出他抵抗侵略的決心把國內的這個政治上面的對抗外擴讓國際之間對整個台灣產生錯誤的印象這個我覺得我們國防部有必要清楚的說明喔要讓我們的友邦能夠清楚知道什麼原因造成延宕"},{"start":346.636,"end":370.754,"text":"不是台灣人不願意眷軍備戰我們當然知道最好的準備就是對我們自己的最好的武裝就是最心防然後堅強我對蔣介石先生很多行為民國初年的時候三四十年的時候在台灣的白色恐怖我不以為然但是他有一句話我是認同的物是敵之不來 政是無由以待之"},{"start":372.193,"end":386.258,"text":"如果我們是不去做這個建軍這些國防武器的採購跟準備那全世界如果看我們國防部有什麼樣子的這個準備要向全世界說明這樣的狀況我想我們"},{"start":391.397,"end":413.593,"text":"包括今天在大院這邊的詢答的內容我們也會適時的向外宣布在這一次的演習當中我們也很及時的向外發布我們的新聞稿說明我們應對的這個措施及時的措施那對於"},{"start":414.694,"end":443.096,"text":"預算部分我想我們也會適時的向全世界跟我們的社會說明國防部是很負責任的提出年度及特別預算因應敵情增加我們的戰力其實藍白立委他們所做的除了延宕國防採購之外他們還試圖把這個責任也要加一些在你們身上因為他們用立法違憲的方式通過一個法律說每一個"},{"start":446.966,"end":465.474,"text":"這個志願役的軍官薪水都要加3萬那這明明就是搶奪了行政權這違反中華民國憲法我現在先問一個問題請問2025年我們中華民國政府對於我們的國軍的這個心想是不是已經有增加了"},{"start":467.506,"end":487.96,"text":"那增加的幅度是怎麼樣 增加的比例是多少 請你說明一下委員好 我是主席局局長我們在一百一十四年 就是二零二五年四月的時候在部長的指導之下我們已經針對於戰鬥部隊加級 志願役加級等五項的加級我們都已經有調整了那是在整體財政規劃前提下去做的規劃也得到行政院的認同那調整的比例多少"},{"start":488.66,"end":516.453,"text":"調整的比例大概應該有接近200億左右增加200億再做這些佳績大概有100多億100多億做這些佳績所以118億很難因為每一個人所獲得的跟每一個軍種跟已經那個不是完全一致所以你很難在這邊詳細回答但是114年度我們中華民國政府對於我們的國軍事實上是有提升了一些待遇"},{"start":517.714,"end":535.248,"text":"人事經費方面就增加一百多億這是你講的嘛 是好 那現在我請問你現在在野黨利用他國會多數應用法律規定每一個志願役軍人要加三萬順便還跟你講說就是因為行政院不願意編這三萬的預算所以他不願意審查預算"},{"start":536.992,"end":565.525,"text":"他試圖還把責任掛在你身上所以我覺得你們也有義務要向我們的國軍做充分的說明其實購買國防武器照顧現在現役的軍人能夠保護軍人在戰場的時候這是很重要的事情以這個理由如果今天是3萬我不知道原因為什麼是3萬他也從來沒有講過了為什麼不是5萬為什麼不是10萬為什麼不是2萬為什麼不是1萬他用一個法律就規定每個人要加3萬"},{"start":567.182,"end":578.253,"text":"然後就跟你講說你這三萬你不給他加進去我的國家預算就不給你審查還把這個責任要推到你國軍的身上你這樣細想之下你不會覺得很可怕嗎"},{"start":579.816,"end":598.295,"text":"我不殺柏仁 柏仁因我而死結果你們最後跟你講說你國防武器的延宕採購就是因為你們預算你們的薪水沒有增加所以我們就不給你錢啦我們就不省預算啦整個中華民國的這個全部都被延宕啦那就是因為國軍沒有加這三萬塊沒有在我們的命令下因為我們要討好你們"},{"start":599.571,"end":625.208,"text":"我們在野黨的立委要他討好國軍要討好這些自由軍官所以你們這三份我硬要加給你加不到就讓中華民國整體的預算來墊備聽起來是這樣的意思這樣你感受如何不知道副部長你的感受如何我這樣的論述不知道你的感受如何可不可以跟我們回答一下報委員我們希望"},{"start":626.516,"end":644.494,"text":"大院能夠儘速把我們的預算排入審查議程我們願意在委員會裡面跟委員詳細的報告跟討論如果委員覺得有什麼需要調修的地方我們都願意一起來討論我們希望走正常的預算程序讓國家預算趕快通過"},{"start":645.706,"end":658.572,"text":"這才是正道另外我再提醒你喔無論是誰都要遵守中華民國憲法是這個如果可以用這樣的方式那我可不可以立個法要求台積電每一個員工都要給我加給我每一個人月薪給我加一百萬不能用這樣的方式處理啊國家的行政權"},{"start":665.106,"end":692.822,"text":"人事跟預算經費這是行政權的範圍如果有一天國防部長或是說整個行政院都不能決定軍人的軍人應該的薪水是多少這是可以討論的過程然後不是你們決定要別人來替你們決定那這樣行政權就沒有存在的必要啊這明明就是這麼違憲的事實啊他都敢幹還是依照中華民國憲法宣誓要就任的這個立法委員"},{"start":694.414,"end":698.035,"text":"他敢這樣子幹把中華民國憲法視為無誤所以大家加油為了中華民國為了大家為了我們的國家大家加油謝謝謝謝吳委員那因為剛剛議事人員已經有宣讀過上次的會議議事錄了"}]}},{"id":"166804","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166804","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b5886a0886d17c09f26eeb09d831e702117c8636dcd6d4218d94e76400af35f56875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:55:47 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我是組織局局長有關調整各級部隊基本維持訂額業務費它是持續性的案子但是這個額度是115年比114年增加的額度這個副部長"},{"start":92.698,"end":119.039,"text":"持續性的計畫按照預算法的規定預算立法院還沒通過照樣可以執行這是第一個但新增的額度就沒辦法第二預算法第54條總預算案之審議如不能依第51條期限完成時各機關預算之執行依下列規定為之"},{"start":120.322,"end":147.802,"text":"第二支出的部分新興資本支出及新增計劃有個但書很重要但依第八十八條規定辦理或經立法院同意者不在此限如果真的那麼重要就請國防部依預算法第五十四條送立法院同意好不好我們就接下來談"},{"start":152.853,"end":180.301,"text":"作為國軍 國防部當然這個我們副部長不是軍人出身不是但是你是台大政治系畢業也去國外念了這個協會所以依法行政很重要尤其是國軍國軍每一個人 每一個軍人"},{"start":182.523,"end":210.783,"text":"尤其是国防部的法律立国家所通过的跟军人有关的法律就是要执行要遵守不然的话整个军力军人的纪律就会受到严重的影响114年6月10号立法院商读通过军人待遇条例宪法征修条文这个你很熟悉的条文"},{"start":211.889,"end":237.503,"text":"第三條第二項行政院如果認為這個立法院決議的法例案有自愛難行的時候就要送立法院提復議請問一下副部長行政院有沒有針對軍人待遇條例送立法院提復議潘委員他現在是行政院是依憲政精神提出了釋憲"},{"start":240.56,"end":268.713,"text":"我问的是有没有提复议有没有送立法院提复议不敢回答目前是没有提复议但是他提出了期限不是目前已经超过时间了十天之内就要提复议了没有关系这个我们就讲实话没有提复议没有提复议就表示没有自爱难行这个是基本法律的解释条文的解释就是如此"},{"start":269.79,"end":287.064,"text":"好 接下來修正軍人待遇條例第五條條文114年6月27號公佈施行總統公佈施行總統公佈施行之前還請了國防部部長顧立雄簽署親自簽名"},{"start":296.417,"end":324.503,"text":"行政院院長 卓榮泰院長也親自簽名前面沒有治安難行所以沒有重力法院服役第二 也附屬了表示沒有問題 同意然後公佈施行依照中央法規標準法這個以前你在大學都念過公佈就生效了公佈就生效了"},{"start":326.095,"end":351.013,"text":"所以作為副部長尤其是國防部部長又是法律出身律師出身就應該去簽這個行政院最起碼你要把預算書一 就能帶一條例第五條包括相關的條文第六條"},{"start":353.479,"end":379.198,"text":"都應該要送到組織總署組織總署不同意那是組織總署的責任啊你有送嗎 國防部有沒有送報告委員 我們基於行政議題的原則好 那我了解 你已經提過這個很多次了最後一分鐘 抱歉一定要讓副部長知道自願役的士兵實領的薪資"},{"start":381.651,"end":408.891,"text":"平均薪資 你看上等兵 一等兵 二等兵就是這麼多 失望多他每天住在營區裡面在營區裡面沒有加班費的你想想看勞工基本薪資勞工的薪資狀況2025年平均經常性薪資四萬七千多了比我們的國軍還多何況這是2025年"},{"start":411.363,"end":434.453,"text":"明年2026年基本工資就會增加3萬塊了超過3萬塊了所以沒有好的軍人沒有足夠的軍人你再有好的裝備誰來操作所以這個部分一定要去欠去欠行政院院長趕快把這個"},{"start":436.604,"end":441.086,"text":"國防部副部長台委會副部長"}]}},{"id":"166802","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166802","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b5853314dfe729ae285eeb09d831e7021174a653833dddfd2f1a3b85e23f7c4a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:41:27 - 11:47:55","影片長度":"00:06:28","會議時間":"2026-01-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處主計長陳淑姿、財政部部長莊翠雲、國防部副部長、海洋委員會副主任委員、海巡署副署長就「115年度中央政府總預算案至今尚未審查，對國家安全及地方建設的影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-05","start_time":"2026-01-05T11:41:27+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-05T11:47:55+08:00","duration":388,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-4-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.5834687500000002,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.71784375,"end":6.679718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.328468750000003,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.07409375,"end":28.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.22159375,"end":22.609718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.43159375,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.85534375,"end":88.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.20284375,"end":165.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.06159375,"end":101.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.21971875000001,"end":115.67534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.90159375,"end":126.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.34221875,"end":141.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.30721875,"end":149.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.37034375000002,"end":150.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.10346875000002,"end":157.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.61346875,"end":161.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.35971875,"end":164.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.42284375,"end":172.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.51909375000002,"end":171.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.05034375000002,"end":173.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.93159375000002,"end":191.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.80909375000002,"end":178.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.68034375000002,"end":205.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.87221875,"end":214.78221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.78221875000003,"end":214.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.93409375000002,"end":215.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.25471875000002,"end":239.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.32221875000002,"end":215.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.22909375,"end":219.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.48721875,"end":239.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.06096875000003,"end":241.34346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.71471875,"end":242.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.82784375000003,"end":246.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.91221875000002,"end":247.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.46909375,"end":295.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.67221875,"end":315.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.13346875,"end":318.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.51284375,"end":323.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.33909375,"end":326.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.42721875,"end":328.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.35096875000005,"end":332.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.88221875000005,"end":331.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.00846875,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.09284375000004,"end":333.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.83534375000005,"end":336.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.31596875,"end":336.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.19346875,"end":341.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.68221875,"end":344.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.48346875000004,"end":381.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.25409375000004,"end":382.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":383.49846875000003,"end":385.54034375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.562,"end":4.669,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請主席長請陳主席長"},{"start":13.359,"end":30.886,"text":"委員好 主席早安我想今天因為外圍的時間稍微比較短所以等一下我會問比較概括性的問題我想這個預算會期不省預算中央政府的一個總預算依舊在卡關其實這已經讓國家承受很大的一個風險"},{"start":31.926,"end":56.648,"text":"那想預算卡關它其實不是一個抽象的數字的問題而已喔那而是正在發生的一些國安的漏洞跟地方的一些建設的一些停擺喔那這些包含哪一些呢包含每個月大約有103萬的通勤族他們的TPAS有可能會受到很大的影響那另外呢還有公共托育的一些設施很多的爸爸媽媽也會受到影響小朋友也會受到影響"},{"start":57.108,"end":76.795,"text":"甚至有高中的學校要興建這也會受到影響我想問一下這個主席處就是115年的這個中央政府總預算到現在還沒有審查連一條都沒有依舊在卡關那請問我們現在是不是只能夠依照暫行的預算來支應來做執行"},{"start":77.935,"end":105.383,"text":"那这样子的一个状况其实已经涉及到了像国安科技防灾基础建设等等的一些经费我们都是用最低的限度来做支应是这样吗是那新增的部分有1017亿那这个部分不能执行那其中TBUS它也算新增TBUS它是以前编载前瞻所以现在改编载总预算它列为新增所以这个也影响到交通组的一个权益"},{"start":105.663,"end":133.423,"text":"那再来就是说所谓的无人载具还有台湾品牌赛事精选计划这些新增的部分都会影响还有一个北回之巅的一个旗舰计划这个部分是补助花莲嘉义台南屏东这些县市的一些景观服务的一个设施的优化还有一个高雄和屏东间的两条快速道路的这一个部分这个也是受到影响那当然还有一个县市河川的一个治水计划"},{"start":133.783,"end":156.77,"text":"那这个治水计划他就是分四年要一千亿那今年编了一百四十五亿这个也是严重影响到地方了那还有一个我们就是直辖市里面编列三百多亿的一个要补助限制就是有关财政收支化修正以后受到影响没有办法弥补的这个部分所以这个部分大概都会有一个受到影响"},{"start":157.67,"end":171.783,"text":"剛剛委員講的部件公共化拖曳設施雖然不是每個縣市都有但是還是有一些縣市都是受到影響的接下來我想請教一下財政部請財政部的是哪位好 次長"},{"start":176.96,"end":204.612,"text":"好 次郎早安我想這個對地方政府來講這個中央預算卡關其實代表的就是工程的延宕那再來有可能是勞工跟廠商款項要延後那甚至地方建設也可能會縮首目前因為這個部分請問財政部有沒有收穫到所謂的這個地方政府他們反映實際的一些困境那到底這筆賬這個地方的建設因此停擺這個賬要算在誰的頭上"},{"start":206.322,"end":225.801,"text":"目前因為這一部分是屬於稅出所以稅出基本上他反應不會跟我們財政部反應應該是會跟主席總署來反應所以剛剛其實我們主席長已經講了非常非常多了我想這個地方政府應該也都收到了這個非常的諷刺我們在這個地方其實該省預算不省預算啦"},{"start":226.261,"end":238.897,"text":"那預算會期不省預算啦那剛剛其實我這個一早喔就來到這個立法院我就聽到有許多人在為所謂的軍人加薪喔那接下來我想請教一下這個國防部副部長好來請徐副部長好"},{"start":247.547,"end":266.346,"text":"是 我剛剛聽到很多的這個國民黨的委員或者是這個黃珊珊委員也都提到所謂的這個軍人加薪的部分那我想大家都已經忽略掉了因為在2025年就是去年的4月1號我們的志願役的勤務加級其實已經有3000到5000的一個勤務的加級"},{"start":268.288,"end":295.644,"text":"再來包含戰鬥部隊的加擠也有4000到7000的這樣子的一個加擠這是在現行制度當中的一個待遇的一個調整它是由行政院來擬定而且並且實施執行那大家可能又忘記了一件事情這2024年的1月這個軍公教條幅3%到4%是通盤的調薪這個部分我的資訊有沒有落差"},{"start":298.008,"end":310.153,"text":"向委員報告,我是國防部財資處長,近幾年來的確我們政府以及國防部對於軍人的薪資待遇來講都是非常關心的,分別在111年調整了3%,113年調整了4%,在去年也就是114年也分別整體調薪了3%,"},{"start":318.556,"end":343.771,"text":"那除了剛剛委員所講的在去年五項加擠及資源加擠之外國防部還是持續滾動式的在檢討我們國防部所屬的各項加擠那對於這個軍人待遇的這個關係是不遺餘力的那有關這個軍人待遇條例的三萬塊的部分那這一方面的調整我們還是必須國防部必須基於行政一體的原則那等待事件結果之後才能來辦理"},{"start":344.54,"end":369.952,"text":"好 我想前一陣子我們的中共才軍演 中共軍演我們面對這個中共軍演 大家都講的話都講得很好聽但是我再次的強調 預算會期就是要審預算那審預算是立法院的責任這是立法院的責任但是現在是不審不排不表決這本身對於我們的國家安全還有地方的建設有很大的一個傷害所以再次的呼籲所有藍白的委員"},{"start":371.392,"end":380.021,"text":"這個政治是可以競爭但是不能用拖垮國家的這樣子的一個預算來當作自己的政治籌碼好 以上謝謝主席好 謝謝市長好 謝謝 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11:44:14","影片長度":"00:12:06","會議時間":"2026-01-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員、交通部、國防部、法務部、司法院、勞動部及行政院主計總處就「公告修正《政府採購法》，以求精進政府採購效率、提高重大工程進度品質、堵絕惡質廠商投標可能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員黃捷等17人擬具「政府採購法增訂第十七條之一條文草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條、第九十四條及第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員賴士葆等20人、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人及(六)委員賴瑞隆等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十四條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「政府採購法第九十四條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員萬美玲等21人、(九)委員游顥等23人、(十)委員羅廷瑋等16人、(十一)委員林倩綺等24人、(十二)台灣民眾黨黨團、(十三)委員馬文君等16人、(十四)委員羅智強等17人、(十五)委員翁曉玲等17人及(十六)委員黃健豪等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員許智傑等17人擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條、第一百零二條及第一百零三條條文修正草案」案、(十八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等20人及(二十)委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「政府採購法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】\n【1月5日及8日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-05","start_time":"2026-01-05T11:32:08+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-05T11:44:14+08:00","duration":726,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-4-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.03909375,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.5153437499999995,"end":9.447218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":8.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.31596875,"end":13.007843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.855968750000002,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.96909375,"end":20.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.41596875,"end":103.60971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.96409375,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.95096875,"end":111.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.04721875000001,"end":136.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.81971875000002,"end":152.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.44596875000002,"end":167.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.02159375000002,"end":168.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.57846875,"end":173.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.93221875,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.34096875,"end":184.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.41659375,"end":178.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.82159375,"end":178.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.25159375,"end":181.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.25096875,"end":190.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.47409375,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.92534375000002,"end":194.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.92909375000002,"end":204.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.24784375000002,"end":211.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.05284375000002,"end":239.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.58846875,"end":240.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.20846875,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.37284375000002,"end":294.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.34346875,"end":321.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.73159375,"end":323.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.62596875,"end":335.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.48909375,"end":340.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.55159375,"end":351.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.02659375,"end":356.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.24534375,"end":358.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.95409375,"end":392.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.59409375,"end":403.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.30096875000004,"end":406.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.70159375000003,"end":410.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.81909375000004,"end":414.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.20659375,"end":423.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.79596875000004,"end":426.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.22596875000005,"end":429.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.02284375000005,"end":431.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.99721875,"end":436.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.58721875000003,"end":440.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.92409375000005,"end":442.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.18534375,"end":445.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.91909375,"end":457.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.98659375000005,"end":446.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.11721875,"end":447.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.35721875,"end":450.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.51721875000004,"end":453.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.47846875000005,"end":458.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.94659375000003,"end":459.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.97596875000005,"end":462.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46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衛生福利部的這個在上一頁 上一頁 上一頁上一頁 上一頁 上一頁衛生福利部在這個台中後里"},{"start":112.171,"end":135.773,"text":"接著還有一個所謂的鼠立醫院的一個後裏分院那我也期許可以盡快的來進行完工也能夠可以獲得再申請這個金職獎我要講這一些是說我們重大的公共工程能夠去爭取我們公共工程委員會的這個奧斯卡獎金職獎事實上每年都有但是不多那這個"},{"start":137.555,"end":151.308,"text":"獲獎的過程包括審查的過程也好像層層關卡要一關闖過一關也不容易但是我最終還是希望所有的獲獎回到它最終的是一個品質"},{"start":153.831,"end":167.631,"text":"專業還有他真正對我們國人民眾生活造成的一個好的一個環境好的一個工程是樂利民生的這個我想政委應該同意吧"},{"start":168.933,"end":184.244,"text":"除了工程的相關的專業人員跟從業人員的安全平安很重要金子講就是他有比較長的查核期經過出品跟複品全部都是外部的委員"},{"start":185.505,"end":209.26,"text":"沒有工程會本身的人員參與全部都是外部的委員所以這個專業性跟他獲獎的公正性是值得肯定的尤其是在最後賦品的時候主審的委員還要能夠舉出理由說服其他的賦品委員說為什麼是這一家得優良不是那一家所以整個是一關又一關是沒有錯那我相信這兩個工程應該實至名歸"},{"start":211.181,"end":231.737,"text":"是 那我只是一個建議我們既然已經是第25屆了那表示我們歷年來獲獎的公共工程無數那獲獎的公共工程我們有沒有把它集結成一個可以讓國人清楚了解這個金子獎的意義跟它的重要性的一個平台"},{"start":232.538,"end":250.255,"text":"我覺得這個是第一個讓國人對公共工程的品質還有對這個獎項的一個政府的信心信任他才可以安心這是第一個我給的建議這個我不知道有沒有做如果有會後可不可以給我一個報告"},{"start":251.776,"end":276.756,"text":"我為什麼會談到這個呢國人對於公共工程的一個要求跟信心信任才牽涉到國人使用公共工程裡面的安全性還有它的方便性舒適性等等任何的公共工程都是要有利於民眾的生活那平安最重要所以我覺得現在要跟你講我們這個工程有金子獎那公安的部分呢"},{"start":277.236,"end":294.289,"text":"因為我剛剛看到其他委員也要再談到這個公共工程公安問題台中市最近發生了兩件事一個叫北區的中央市場的改建工程鷹架倒塌一人受傷一個是我們台中榮總的工地鷹架也是倒塌"},{"start":295.61,"end":321.624,"text":"雖然沒有造成人員傷亡但是呢每一件只要見報見新聞之後大家都會對公共工程的這個公安的問題到底有沒有做好那主委 政委你可不可以跟我講說這公安的問題呢是這個勞動部的問題是他的職責跟我公共工程委會可能沒有相關但是政委我要跟你講有相關相關在哪裡呢 下一頁"},{"start":322.779,"end":351.228,"text":"我們去年12月2號三讀通過了職安法修法要保障公安我們舉雙手贊成也一定要做而且這一次是大修那這一次大修的修法重點呢在於其中一個強化營造工程的源頭防災還有呢預防公安強化營造工程的源頭防災公安的問題那這兩件事情公共工程委員會可以做什麼"},{"start":352.088,"end":367.287,"text":"主委我不知道你有沒有去看過 治安法的修法內容你有沒有看過 要不要看過啦我不知道公共工程委會的 各位團隊有沒有人看過我建議去看一下好不好因為這會牽涉到 公共工程裡面的一些細節"},{"start":368.869,"end":391.714,"text":"修法之後呢要求工程業主將營造工程交付規劃設計跟施工時應該依工程特性分析潛在危害還要什麼編制安全衛生圖說還要什麼規範還要什麼還要預算然後還要使施工者採取可以採取預防的作為"},{"start":392.915,"end":400.505,"text":"這個看起來好像跟你們沒有關係但是實質上如果你去探討一下你們公共工程在執行面務實面甚至那層層的分包之後"},{"start":405.742,"end":431.651,"text":"那個什麼叫做分析潛在危害什麼叫做編制安全衛生圖說這個東西我們公共工程委員會要不要跟勞動部進一步跨部會來協商一下什麼樣的一個標準什麼樣的一個門檻什麼樣的一個制式的範本圖說是可以讓大家有所依循的"},{"start":432.011,"end":455.575,"text":"好 這個委員的意見非常好因為最近我們剛好有同仁去日本去他們實際上的大營造廠商演習回來日本的公共工程它那個施工圖說是很詳細的很具體的不是只有書面的設計要求而已它是一張一張的圖說那你施工者 廠商你就一定要按照這個圖說比方說這裡畫 比方說"},{"start":458.976,"end":485.311,"text":"多少個鷹架多少個防護網等等非常清楚這個我們正是要學習的方法那我們希望說政府採購法通過之後我們這次強調說我們那個企業範本希望剛性化將來的施工規範能夠強制那我們會參著先進國家比方說哪些國家這種施工最安全最重視我們看過大概就日本 德國"},{"start":486.932,"end":497.603,"text":"這個我親身見你到日本看它有一個路口一個施工是很多人在做比方說指揮車輛什麼很多人而且很忙忙進忙出的在做當然成本高"},{"start":498.942,"end":518.254,"text":"我也看過其他有非洲國家一個工程可能幾個人在做旁邊圍了一堆人在看所以這個文化是不同的那當然是制度我們有改進跟精進的地方讓我們同意委員的要求那我們進一步修法之後能夠來學習相關的國家的施工的"},{"start":519.415,"end":537.77,"text":"規範或設計施工的圖說你每一個不管是大包分包次分包都有這個圖說都有這個SOP拿去施工從制度面來減少這個職安或者是這些職安公安的發生對那另外就是招標"},{"start":539.031,"end":552.664,"text":"的時候我們希望說你如果這些都做到了沒有一些過去沒有一些勞安職安的問題那我們可能你的分數會有加分的地方那你如果這個有這個職安相關的"},{"start":556.047,"end":574.484,"text":"公安的问题的话就算你以前得到金职奖是会取消金职奖的而且你根本没办法进入连报名金职奖第一关就淘汰掉了所以这个要请业者来注意但是因为它层层分包或者是不见得每个施工厂商都会那么"},{"start":575.385,"end":592.862,"text":"那麼乖 我就是要提醒政委原則性我同意政委剛剛所講的我們要學習人家好的地方安全的一個公安的要求包括在工程特性的分析 圖說還有規範等等都要細緻化但是第一個"},{"start":594.424,"end":609.938,"text":"業界有沒有這樣子的專業人士做得到做不到這第一個人的問題要先幫忙想誰可以來做這些事情第二個我們的要求的這些層層的要求裡面在我們現在食物面"},{"start":611.259,"end":625.195,"text":"營造商大小包商參差不齊規模大小又差異很大那我們又要怎麼樣的分級分類的來要求第三個剛剛你講到分包我們現在呢"},{"start":625.956,"end":654.375,"text":"公共工程裡面呢在這個職安法的修法裡面也有要求工程業主若將工程分包給多個施工者施工者應指定其中一個施工者來負整體工程安全衛生統合管理責任這一個呢文字是這樣條文文字是這樣寫實際上到底是如何運作跟指定這個都事關公共工程委員會要怎麼樣的讓所有"},{"start":655.596,"end":674.971,"text":"參與負責公共工程的推動、發包、興建到完工、驗收等等這每每各各很多細節都需要公共工程委員會可能要想清楚因為你的執行面要能夠執行就必須把這些細節下一個"},{"start":676.912,"end":695.517,"text":"具體 具體明確你跟勞動部各司其職這樣子才能夠真正的確保公安也才能夠做得到啦不然我們訂了一些執法規如果是業界做不到的 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謝謝主席是不是請主委陳主委請委員長公務員很難為啊尤其碰到這個採購法動不動不是衛照文書就是圖利他人馬祖那個地區啊你找的公務員沒多少人嘛採購法的問題你去叫公務局局長啊"},{"start":31.098,"end":58.449,"text":"是不是能夠攏會貫通我覺得都有問題那何況相公所啦底下的這些基層的人員所以馬祖這個地方很傷腦筋公務員現在不敢審查審查如果有疏漏主官如果去批批的不對像柯文哲這樣 柯市長這樣批的不對問題就來了"},{"start":60.649,"end":85.601,"text":"當然它那個是大的 那麼下面是小的那那個地方缺工缺料主委你有沒有聽說過一個工程標18次標不出去的 有沒有聽說過18次的確是 流標18次的確是很多的這一種事情發生在馬祖還有工程沒有人來標 你有沒有聽說過沒有人來標啊 為什麼"},{"start":86.891,"end":114.849,"text":"馬祖這邊交通不便所以他的材料缺工材料要比較單價比較高他的材料商船把材料運到大的島南甘島北甘島沒有問題連北甘都有問題運到舉光島去問題來了舉光島的材料可能一個小工程100多萬他沒有水泥沒有石頭那你要商船把石頭材料運過去的話對不起"},{"start":116.001,"end":144.826,"text":"我船運的油料費30萬你要算給我所以這個成本要怎麼算所以比較像這一類的地區或者是山上我們都可以允許採購機關寬列預算比較高的單價來做設計最近風景管理處就標了一個就設計了一個案子他用台灣的造價再高一點點沒有人標一次兩次三次"},{"start":145.618,"end":173.726,"text":"誰要去飆 誰飆誰死啊 誰倒楣何況像北竿你看 我今天跟你列舉北竿我們四大工程 延旦工程縣長也很倒楣 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澎湖能夠適度的做一些開放這樣有辦法嗎"},{"start":351.738,"end":379.344,"text":"公共工程的個案如果缺工那麼工程會可以協助專案向勞動部來協助申請你專案我這個專案有必要這個專案結束以後下一個專案又來了那每個都要專案來報他是常態他是常規就是現在在發生的事情主委你這回去研究一下好不好另外百分之二十為上限是不是這樣"},{"start":381.015,"end":404.447,"text":"他延宕的話20%為上限就是罰款我們罰了他20%這一家罰完以後倒閉了那你要重新招標對不對那延宕的更厲害了這一家已經很勉強的我們拜託他所以變成怎麼勒我們還每天去廟裡燒香拜託他不要罰20%"},{"start":407.145,"end":436.114,"text":"他延宕的話對我們會造成更深遠的影響變成我們要去廟裡去拜託你在台灣管理死活你依法依規來你超過規定你超過多少我就罰你百分之二十那百分之二十我不是要他百分之二十的錢百分之二十錢你把他罰完以後問題更多第二家來再罰百分之二十你說的工程要搞到什麼時候合年合月合日"},{"start":437.253,"end":462.652,"text":"主委這是我們在馬祖發生的事情對就是料材料運送成本高嘛那也沒有工所以他在設計的時候本身單價就要設計高一點符合現況那麼這樣才能夠找得到工人廠商物料呢才能夠在他合理的歷任之下完成這個工程這個跟山上"},{"start":463.553,"end":490.422,"text":"的工程一樣本身就是很困難嘛所以必須可以提高的在設計階段 問題是各部會補助我們的一些東西你增加三分之一可以啊你增加一倍他會給你嗎就像我們的長照可能一個床位在台北只要五萬塊我們以下 五十萬我們去一個床位要一百萬餵婆婆就不會同意我們啊"},{"start":491.724,"end":518.591,"text":"所以你在這裡面可能要有一個明確的稍微指導一下好 這個我們等修法過了之後那必要的相關的規定來修正或指引或者是函給各機關針對像這一類偏遠地區的補助款你應該就他的困難點補助款的部分應該要著以管理主委 這個看起來我今天的質詢是個小事真的是很大的事情"},{"start":519.813,"end":548.494,"text":"一件一件的公務員怕批公文公務員怕審查然後又缺工缺料缺經費問題很多啊所以現在公僕難為真的公僕難為我想行政院工程會你們在這個採購法修正的時候指導一下好不好那有機會也派一些人員到馬祖去辦一些相關採購法部分的說明"},{"start":549.232,"end":553.629,"text":"好不好 能夠做一個訓練這個可以好不好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"166799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b581349aae2f5da9e903011a53eea80ce164a653833dddfd2f18c2082ecc2dcd8fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:09:30 - 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多看那個重點我們講重點看有什麼重點可以處理那針對委員第一個問題就是說怎麼防篤這個承辦人員刁蘭其實他這個行為是違反採購人員的倫理準則只是我們一直以來機關沒有嚴格去執行所以我們前一陣子有用函"},{"start":255.773,"end":283.31,"text":"這個通函的話那現在還是有啊現在還 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這個委員這個意見很好因為這個真的是每一個你個別去針對個別案件"},{"start":416.388,"end":422.451,"text":"你搞不清楚啦那另外就是說那個主計跟政風的參與因為現在參與度有多少我請這個主管來跟你說明"},{"start":430.029,"end":451.182,"text":"報告委員之前委員有請我們要去加強這個那我們修了執法把那個得通知把它改成應通知那成立的比率大概從40%已經升至53%了謝謝委員好 謝謝這個部分我跟主委跟大家分享其實政風跟主計看起來大家都比較害怕"},{"start":452.52,"end":481.248,"text":"但是呢 為什麼我會提出說當然會增加他們的工作啦 比較不好意思啦但是有政風跟主計在就有第三方那有他們在的時候坦白講 你想要作弊啦你想要作弊 至少他們兩個都看過這是一個防弊的概念那另外一個也讓公務員更有擔當的概念就是說他們說一句話說不完 如果叫檢察官起訴啦他可能沒有問題 但是被起訴"},{"start":482.574,"end":502.847,"text":"然後呢 一個案子審了五年 八年這個公務員差不多就被公務員耽誤掉了沒差這幾個優秀的公務員有些人去隨便檢舉 又遇到檢察官又把他起訴你就很衰了像這種東西 為什麼我們其實我認為主計跟政風的加入是保護公務員"},{"start":504.591,"end":528.596,"text":"是保護公園 就是說你有家兩女兒在看 家四女兒在看那你可以讓這個採購 大家更公平更符合規定 然後也更難作弊然後他們都在因為你如果只是讓市公所 區公所 鄉公所去做坦白講 有的 我說一批的人不好啦"},{"start":531.984,"end":549.243,"text":"如果7%裡面剛好有一個鄉長或是一個區長不好他就都固定這裡有他的班樓嘛我相信那個主委很清楚啦這個班樓其實有的是真的不好的啦要怎麼去防備這個班樓"},{"start":552.579,"end":574.948,"text":"我們除了法制面之外大概也會定時的針對採購機關辦理採購講習就是採購人員辦理採購講習我是給主委建議講習都沒有政令宣導我是希望說類似我剛才講的有一個大數法則然後去看不同的公所這些小額採購"},{"start":576.831,"end":602.897,"text":"買賣這行 有的是3萬 有的是10萬我看才知道這個這個就可以做一個客觀的比較讓人看不到在這裡這一定有工程介紹才有多少嘛就可以比較可以有機會不會讓他說上下其所你說3萬 4萬 差1萬有什麼環境因素或者是有什麼考量我不知道但是也許有一點小價差差幾倍那就有問題了"},{"start":604.195,"end":618.729,"text":"那我們如果說第一個我是希望說第一個就是這個部分我們工程會做一個思考第二個部分就是剛剛我提到的可能要拜託主席政風辛苦一點其實你們是跟公務員保護的有你們在的大家有沒有跟後輩來"},{"start":620.996,"end":648.961,"text":"那第三個我是希望說剛講到的是說那個固定廠商有一個另外一個不是固定廠商財美有照入來的標準要去用刁蘭這個第三方坦白講工程會是很辛苦啦我來做個案件我也沒辦法處理我來拜託工程會來處理通常是設計的時候設計的太模糊啦什麼是等級品那個設計的太模糊啦這部分我們再來接近那我的意思就是說大的案子其實大部分會到工程會來"},{"start":650.359,"end":658.157,"text":"但是呢 小的案子他可能不見得會到工程會來 很多那這些很多 是不是工程會再想一個機制怎麼去幫助他們"},{"start":661.374,"end":689.173,"text":"這有時候你看不到 很多啦你從外面看都看不到 到底這件事有作弊 這件事沒作弊你真的不是那麼容易看得出來有些是廠商做不好當然我們要要求 這個我都贊成有些是廠商做不好被刁難的那這個在地方如果在全國各鄉鎮市各縣市有很多的時候你說全部都到工程會來 其實都很困難的所以搞不好在地上有的人 有的工程會有比較多的"},{"start":691.189,"end":713.586,"text":"像這個東西是不是地方有機會有這種機制第三方單位或者是仲裁怎麼樣去讓他地方比較少這種問題有的直轄市他有採購申訴的機制我知道 我是說可以一起想啦就是說從我們工程會的角度因為直轄市 我說的這1%裡面如果剛好是某一個管理商現在南投有一個 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謝謝主席有請我們工程會陳主委陳主委請委員長好 陳主委我想今天這個政府採購法政府採購法因為我印象深刻我正好民國87年87年擔任中立市市民代表剛開始從政然後正好是我們那時候採購法上路的那一年"},{"start":33.081,"end":56.502,"text":"所以今年我們發掘針對於很多食物上就是這些卡卡的東西我也看到你們都啟動了去修正我也聽到了我們政府採購單位我又訪問一下包括地方政府相關一些部分大家對於整個修法的過程目前看起來方向肯定還是稍微多了多一點當然我們來看一下"},{"start":57.663,"end":76.668,"text":"在整個採購法 現金制度 招標的方式公開招標 現值金招標 選擇金招標這基本上分三大類看起來 限數來說現值金招標最多在70% 這個統計但是現值金招標有時候顧問公司它的金額相對有時候不見得那麼大"},{"start":77.488,"end":91.937,"text":"稍微比較簡單的那限制營招標佔70%可是真正的金額所以在重大工程很多金額動輒數百億甚至地方政府幾億的一個工程那我們發覺以金額來算"},{"start":93.098,"end":109.65,"text":"公開招標還佔55%所以在公開招標的一個制度裡面這一次你們也做了一些調整其中包括了公開招標就第一次招標一定要有三家三家才可以做一個開標"},{"start":110.851,"end":137.982,"text":"那其他限制型招標跟選擇型招標雖然限制型招標量那麼大不過因為金額重要的都不在那裡所以很多的重大工程甚至一些急迫性的工程甚至一些明明就只有少數專業的一個廠商才可以做的工程就還是要再等等等等等到後面那等到後面會發生一些滿可怕的事因為重大工程因為在交通部裡面很多這種狀況"},{"start":139.443,"end":162.191,"text":"一拖再拖拖的時候經費又不夠拖到第三次上網挖發覺這次是真的經費完全不夠然後又開始牽扯找經費整個再來惡性循環所以在整個的一個看你修法的一個主要的一個過程做一個整理第一個就是第一次招標就是不用三家限制一家就可以開標"},{"start":163.496,"end":185.905,"text":"那第二個最有利標就也不要上級機關去核准了像我們現在鄉鎮市公所區公所在我要決定要最有利標公告金額以上的要做最有利標那都要上級機關做核准當然這也是時間的問題啊時間的問題那這是第二個第三個小額採購當然是公告金額150萬"},{"start":187.928,"end":197.696,"text":"現在是十分之一 你把十分之一修掉了 你說各個地方政府 中央機關 那你們自己因地制宜來規定 也就是說可能"},{"start":200.274,"end":218.726,"text":"50萬甚至100萬只要150萬以內都可以那第四個你們也加強惡質廠商的處罰的一個機制因為我想問一件事就總和來說其實採購法法條那麼多但是最大的精神都是希望能夠找到做出來有品質"},{"start":219.767,"end":233.649,"text":"跟有效率的一個公共工程我覺得在整個的一個目前整個修法的制度你覺得能夠怎麼樣有效落實我覺得品質是滿重要的你來說一下好不好"},{"start":234.714,"end":249.751,"text":"第一個就是政府採購法這個修就是說立法之初原立法者就是採取比較防弊的角色而且非常的嚴格的角度來立這個法"},{"start":252.034,"end":280.429,"text":"那當中當然有修但是沒有大的改變所以我們這次是參著採購機關還有各界的意見那麼做一些適當的修改那麼我們希望透過程序的簡便那麼有一些束縛讓採購機關比較方便但是沒有影響到採購的品質那選出最好的廠商就怎麼選商怎麼做好工程這部分在既有的規範之下那都可以來進行"},{"start":281.109,"end":307.267,"text":"那採購的部分我們做了一些修正好 這一次在採購法修正由於第一次招標一家以上那我們一家以上就可以招標我要特別有注意到一個狀況我覺得對於一些重大工程這絕對是一個正面的訊息不過我第一次看到一個修法就是讓我感受到是優質廠商劣質廠商一起放鞭炮 真的"},{"start":308.768,"end":329.703,"text":"這兩個極端這個優質廠商他可以節省很多經費好好做公共工程不要為這個行政採購法拖那麼久那所謂厚質廠商有心的廠商他也很開心他很開心他開心什麼原因呢就是我們從民國39年開始之前的法律營產工程一路到現在就是防弊的機制"},{"start":330.464,"end":358.937,"text":"那在早期來說它是要多成本可能如果你要去做一個微標或者去做一些奇奇怪怪的事情你還要花蠻多的一個成本在現代雖然網路上但是它相關的一個風險還是非常非常大它成本也非常高為什麼你要找人微標你要不要通訊你要不要記錄你要不要來來去去相關的很多一個訊息未來如果真的有出問題的時候在我們法務部門它要查證其實"},{"start":360.437,"end":386.775,"text":"資料是比較多的如果現在有心人的心還是沒變所謂的二級廠商他一進來就會說太開心了就是大門開了其實窗戶後面的小門全開了所以我是覺得正面的效益當然多於負面的時候我們還是要做我是認為還是要做但是我覺得有一些防弊的機制我覺得真的還是要特別的一個注意其中第三項"},{"start":387.856,"end":414.982,"text":"小兒採購150萬因為現在已經有很多的一個制度我覺得因為已經沒辦法因為你要全國試用可是你要知道有很多的偏鄉有一些的公所他一年的預算兩億扣掉人事預算其實這樣沒有多少錢他現在大部分的招標對於像這樣的偏鄉有一些小地方甚至小單位他現在150萬公告金額以下的公告金額以上根本不用外聘委員"},{"start":416.022,"end":435.516,"text":"對不對不用外聘委員假設你已經休了一家也可以我就內聘委員五個科長就上了我覺得一點困難都沒有已經都沒有困難了那現在又三家都不必那像這樣的一個情況就是說大的我們要處理交通部一個國家級的建設這個思維我支持"},{"start":436.357,"end":452.198,"text":"那可是像這樣的搞不好有些有些機關他一年根本沒有超過150萬的這些的問題的時候他是放得很鬆那我們就只能相信這個人的問題那我覺得這個的部分你們對於這種的風險有沒有什麼雖然"},{"start":453.459,"end":467.835,"text":"利多於弊那這個弊的部分就採購法制度你有沒有什麼樣的想法我們有一些配套措施第一個就是機關當預算民意機關審訊之後在一定期間之內他必須公告"},{"start":468.836,"end":493.384,"text":"今年度 比如說採購預算是多少 要做什麼事情 相關計畫要公告再來就是說 相關的領投標機制 我們今天政府採購法有增加電子投標除了電子領標之外 電子投標 現在資訊那麼公開所以不至於變成一個資訊鎖壁 說機關它為所欲為我只找一個A朋友來就可以了 因為其他人都知道這裡有一個案"},{"start":494.324,"end":509.957,"text":"所以包括這個開標等標期要展年等等都有一些配套措施好的 現在時代很多的真的不一樣因為在早期的時候十二十年前是真的一堆大小的採購單位一堆人要來標"},{"start":511.278,"end":531.948,"text":"現在是一堆人不要來標你也知道嘛就是上網你網多方便我就不要來領到底發生了什麼事從過去的趨之若鹜到現在很多的不騙你很多的近而遠之啊三個就這四個原因嘛到底預算跟市場有蠻多案子是脫節的所以造成了我這個來"},{"start":533.408,"end":554.313,"text":"利潤低 法律風險極高法律最少的部分在政府單位跟你行政命令公文我就弄不完了一不小心要跑法院 嚇都嚇死第二個當然最低標的一個制度大家就有一些固定的廠商在那裡他就可以拿到很便宜的或者標到之後他很有辦法"},{"start":554.833,"end":582.627,"text":"不知道什麼原因第三 外在的因素這也不用講啦有一些可能土地要取得有些因素嘛民眾有意見甚至缺工料前幾天是但是我覺得第四項是很重要的很多人心灰意冷從熱忱到現在不玩了再怎麼跟大家講改制度完它也不來的原因就是供給政府的效率但我不是講你啊講包括中央地方的一個政府折磨啊折磨人怎麼折磨呢"},{"start":583.708,"end":592.468,"text":"從招標文件的時候當然你現在有一條講說強制性我們政府的招標大家都用同一套不要再加那麼多附屬一個"},{"start":593.737,"end":618.011,"text":"附屬的一個卡關卡人的一個點這是一個滿重要的你在招標文件的時候特別你有制式化的現在因為很多的機關他覺得他要再增加很多一個條文那這個部分未來到底要怎麼樣去做會不會減少這方面的問題第二個其實整個從評選一個階段開始人為的一個因素"},{"start":619.271,"end":635.723,"text":"這個也發生了很多的問題所以現在產生為什麼優質機關跟惡質機關他們同樣放鞭炮在你這個修法的過程中我覺得一定要特別注意這個訊息因為人的因素太重要"},{"start":636.423,"end":653.251,"text":"我們現在碰到很多人心灰意冷走人的我們覺得還不錯的廠商後面很多都是人但我覺得很可惜這些政府的採購人員就我所看到的其實我認為九成五九成五都很優他甚至怕他比廠商還怕他守得很緊"},{"start":654.392,"end":668.359,"text":"但是確實這中間也有蠻大一部分這個人的因素人的因素包括我們現在辦公室還有一個陳情還借到一個陳情陳情五千多萬的工程來陳情的陳情的要做什麼你知道"},{"start":669.758,"end":695.207,"text":"就跟他跪下來 跪下來我退場好不好 饒了我退場 我不玩了他說跟他說對不起我不知道你的工程有固定的廠商在那邊做我烏魯叢林了 我跟你對不起我可以不要再折磨我了我們遇到這種 所以這個人的問題我覺得是非常非常的重要你知道我現在多少的工程我讓你驗過你就驗過我讓你驗不過"},{"start":698.66,"end":727.408,"text":"你就驗不過你驗過了我拖你半年一年我才付錢我馬上給你錢都可以你現在這種人為機制讓很多的優質廠商我就好好做然後可是可能做得比人家好但是也遇到這些問題這個的部分有沒有什麼樣的機制可以去導正這次我們有關於估驗期要縮短估驗次數要增加讓廠商不用承擔那麼多的"},{"start":728.208,"end":744.486,"text":"这个带电款这个是希望这个机关对厂商的一个改善刚才委员讲的没有错那委员因为担任过地方政府的首长所以你知道现在很多比方说尤其地方政府他那个采购人员是非常痛苦的我们这个"},{"start":748.13,"end":761.095,"text":"這個小額採購以上然後金額不大但是他要去採購要去符合三家以上等等這些程序所以造成很多不必要的沒有效率所以我們這次有做一些修正主要那我最後一個建議"},{"start":762.395,"end":787.451,"text":"不用三家一家但是我建議說你們的指導原則因為現在有太多的機關都是用最低的最低的上網那個期間我既然只有一次就第一次基本上有一家就可以我覺得要稍微寬鬆一點讓大家在網路上甚至裡面有很多的訊息你要投稿的文件要準備並不是這麼快所以我倒是覺得說在很多機關"},{"start":788.611,"end":816.246,"text":"確實都用最短的那個期限我是希望能夠所以我們希望稍微等標期要長那怎麼長呢我們這裡面這次修法就是把契約範本要剛性化所以工程會當政府採購法修法通過之後工程會重新訂定相關的契約範本包括剛才委員所指導的等標期要長要怎麼長那這些我們都會重新訂定拘束採購機關來做這些事情好啦 等標期相對"},{"start":817.486,"end":834.558,"text":"相對要稍微長一點因為第一次就可能然後但是驗收沒問題付款真的要規定一下啦那不是說我愛簽不簽在那邊卡在哪裡我覺得這樣很不好最後一個因為今天法務部門也在這裡現在修很多法案因為都是授權給地方政府"},{"start":835.459,"end":855.656,"text":"我覺得好像很多 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主席有請國防部徐副部長我們請徐副部長副院長好徐副部長你好今天的專報其實我們在上一次會議我就已經說過了這個只要行政院如實編列軍人加薪的預算總預算就可以馬上附為審查"},{"start":30.919,"end":55.721,"text":"奈何就是遲遲不編那剛剛其他委員也有問是國防部自己不編還是行政院不准所以是國防部自己不編所以你身為國防部的副部長結果連自己都不挺我們的國防弟兄把國軍放在心上這每個人都在講但是沒有人在做所以我知道你是外交常財"},{"start":56.542,"end":84.802,"text":"那代表我國出席過許多的國際戰略交流類的這樣子一個論壇跟會議但我不曉得說副部長你有沒有親自這個到部隊去第一線去了解軍人的聲音上一次的會議我在這邊舉出我們榮景鄉親的例子那這一次就帶部長我們的副部長來看一看國軍在網路上是怎麼樣看待軍人這一份職業"},{"start":86.986,"end":102.144,"text":"無論是當過志願役的還是義務役的其實都知道現在國軍是非常的缺人那大多數都不願意繼續擔任軍人這個職務那從這個圖片上網友的評論你可以看到說基層的問題很多"},{"start":104.079,"end":127.874,"text":"那總結來看就是第一個待遇不好錢少工時長那休假常被召回等等的這些不合邏輯的這樣子的一個原因但是軍隊紀律注重成績的節制所以導致許多人不願意將軍人視為一份長期可發展的職業所以副部長對於普遍基層軍人這樣來評論國軍這一份職業以及點出現存的問題"},{"start":133.898,"end":157.607,"text":"請問你的回應謝謝委員指教您所找到這個資料它多大程度是一個普遍現象我覺得我們可能還要再考察一下因為它並不是經過科學的隨機抽樣找到的一個資料當然有這樣的意見我們會深入這是第一點第二點我們沒有不照顧官兵我們也不是說"},{"start":158.467,"end":179.052,"text":"我們不願意編 而是基於行政議題我們尊重行政院的目前的這個向法院的一個訴訟所以我們要等這個結果那我們也今年應該說去年我們也有很多佳績 各種各樣的佳績副部長 更誇張的是我們的委員我們的委員說只有僱傭兵才會為錢打仗"},{"start":184.67,"end":202.365,"text":"這讓人家大肆一驚加薪增加這樣子的一個為我們國軍弟兄來增加他們權益然後呢來體恤他們的心腦以及招募更多優秀的人才這個是我們的目標啊對不對那所以"},{"start":204.397,"end":231.576,"text":"如果說連基本的需求都不能滿足那就更不要去談什麼福利升遷這些機率的部分嘛你連基本的做不到你還在談什麼未來這些很幻想的東西空幻的東西空泛的東西所以這種說法不只是傷害國軍的士氣也暴露出執政黨對於軍事現實的一個嚴重的誤判世界上沒有任何一支軍隊是靠"},{"start":232.597,"end":244.404,"text":"情懷撐起來的所以合理的薪資基本待遇是最基本的一個制度條件不是獎勵也不是施捨對不對 是不是這樣子副部長"},{"start":245.877,"end":270.022,"text":"報委員關於這是最基本的吧關於軍人待遇我們沒有不調但是他是整體行政院調整的一部分但是我沒有看到國防部站出來澄清或者是譴責或者是批判這樣子的言論所以等於是說國防部我們這些長官是不是都已經默認了把軍人"},{"start":273.686,"end":293.081,"text":"加薪 軍人增加待遇變成是一個唯利是圖那這樣子的情況是不是讓我們的這些從軍的國軍將士情何以堪提高待遇各行各業都要啦不是只有國軍但是面對目前兩岸的局勢"},{"start":294.572,"end":305.058,"text":"這樣子一個緊張的狀態有可能發生任何的這樣子的一個情況的時候我們現在缺人缺武器什麼都缺"},{"start":306.6,"end":331.562,"text":"連待遇也缺那怎麼樣提升國防戰力呢怎麼樣來提升防衛任性呢強化戰力這些東西所以你連基本待遇都不願意協助他們那怎麼樣要求他們呢未來使用武器的也是國軍啊未來上戰場的也是國軍啊抵禦外敵的也是國軍啊對不對可是我們的一個一個待遇低人手不足那何談戰力啊戰力要怎麼去"},{"start":333.341,"end":359.515,"text":"講這些東西我們去年有五項加擠志願役 勤務加擠 戰鬥部隊加擠戰航管加擠 電偵加擠網路戰加擠這些加擠全部加總起來我請教一下副部長我們現在基層的阿兵哥二等兵 一等兵 上等兵多少錢四萬二 四萬四 四萬五是不是這樣子"},{"start":361.972,"end":389.403,"text":"對不對 對嘛那如果說我想要請教說我們副部長如果你不譴責我們中委員說的只有僱傭兵才看錢打仗才要拿錢打仗如果你不譴責這樣子的言論那就等於是國防部支持那請問我們長官你們願不願意自請調降你們的薪水因為你們不是拿錢打仗的嘛你們不是拿錢保衛國家的嘛"},{"start":390.817,"end":412.464,"text":"願不願意跟我們第一線的阿兵哥一等兵 二等兵 上等兵拿一樣的薪水 拿一樣的待遇高權重你應該要來爭取為我們第一線 我們的國軍我們這些阿兵哥士官來提升他們的權益嘛 照顧他們然後我們要購買這個"},{"start":415.072,"end":436.929,"text":"國防的武器我們要軍購我們也不反對我們只希望你們提高軍人的待遇加薪把這個案子你們只要送進來一定可以馬上審查國防預算一定可以馬上赴委報告委員如果赴委以後我們就可以公開討論一案一案的來討論那你預算不送進來啊你沒有加薪啊報告這個事情也可以在赴委之後討論啊"},{"start":441.601,"end":466.172,"text":"你沒有這個不要把兩個混在一起這個是最基本的條件我們三讀通過了為國軍加薪為我們的警消海巡的部分提高他們的一個這些權益的部分三讀通過了不編不編預算包委員我剛講過我們的立場是我們是行政的一部分行政是一體的"},{"start":468.345,"end":492.81,"text":"所以我說你們隨便說要照顧阿明哥我們的國軍弟兄要照顧他們事實上是沒有做你們連做都沒做如果你們做了被行政院否決這是行政院的決定作為下屬單位尊重上屬沒有錯 但是問題你連做都沒做所以我在這邊要告訴你 副部長"},{"start":494.268,"end":507.858,"text":"如果只要你們馬上編列我們軍人加薪還有我們的這些部分只要一編列就可以馬上復為好不好我們副部長請回謝謝主席有請我們陳組長陳組長委員好"},{"start":517.928,"end":540.478,"text":"主席長你好其實講了很多不管說你說預算沒有過絕對影響經濟政府消費投資受挫這些議題我們在去年就已經都討論過了但是經濟成長除了說政府消費還有政府投資還包括民間消費民間投資還有出口你把這些焦點全部把它拉到政府端"},{"start":541.158,"end":564.952,"text":"等於說把景氣好壞投資信心強弱還有外需的冷熱全部硬塞成預算過不過這單一個原因把全部這些把它塞在政府端說是因為預算不過所以這是偷換概念所以主席長在民間消費投資出口等數據都還沒有出來的情況目前喔那你是透過什麼樣的數據來說"},{"start":568.1,"end":570.417,"text":"你透過什麼數據可以預算出影響"},{"start":571.987,"end":593.518,"text":"經濟的結論因為這些預算不過而影響經濟的結論你可告訴我一下 簡單說明是 所以我們說不是全部啦但是問題就是說你如果業務費和設備費那每100億大概會影響0.05%但是你如果說消費的部分呢消費的部分本身就是每100億影響0.03是這樣子所以這個部分但是因為你還有出口啊還有進口這些等等"},{"start":599.941,"end":615.934,"text":"你都把他怪罪說預算不夠但是我們這是預估裡面這裡面就是針對他100億來做台灣的經濟成長絕對不是靠政府花錢來撐 是當然但是他投資是算在哪裡中我們不要把人民當作笨蛋因為不要忽略"},{"start":616.995,"end":633.883,"text":"不要忽略國務委員對於我國經濟的努力跟付出啦所以不要這樣子不斷的放話說預算未過的影響經濟 對不對所以我希望啦 你是專業事務官喔所以回到你真正應該辦你的本分好不好是 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 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次長那我想請教一下就是說土地增值稅跟營業稅光是我不問所有的我就是問光是中央的你的那個土增稅土增稅跟那個房屋合一稅少了多少"},{"start":185.752,"end":208.218,"text":"還有貨物稅因為貨物稅其實也關係到就是說在去年一整年因為這個車價的一個問題造成消費者就是遲遲一直到了年底才開始買一些就是他們一起上一起上的希望買的車子那我要知道就是說貨物稅少了多少然後土增稅少了多少我這邊的資料"},{"start":214.386,"end":234.655,"text":"我是不是請副書長來講比較好好誰可以回答我跟委員報告我們的這個貨物稅的部分大概就是截至11月的時候大概就一點這1300多億大概達成率大概是77%"},{"start":237.961,"end":256.61,"text":"對 達成率77%可是還是短收嘛 對不對事實上是不是內需不如預期主要是我們因為受到美國關稅的影響再來就是我們的一些車輛類的部分大概有受到影響"},{"start":257.29,"end":283.821,"text":"我們受到美國關稅的影響還有內需不如預期謝謝 次長那我再請教一下就是說關於所有這三項營業稅 土地增值稅黃地合一稅你到了最終其實這個數字你已經掌握在手上了那如果跟預算數相差比差了多少"},{"start":285.469,"end":286.76,"text":"相差比的數字"},{"start":288.371,"end":315.376,"text":"市長你這個簡單的數字你怎麼沒有把它記在心裡咧有有你應該馬上回答我啊因為我這個是比較細項還是我沒有像陳一貞那麼兇那個房地合一稅房地合一稅是目前是大概是大概是少了百分之大概會少了大概十幾億啦對大概十幾億啦那剛才還有剛才提到就是那個"},{"start":316.65,"end":338.548,"text":"土生稅的問題土生稅的話大概少了165億我想在這裡跟財政部所有同仁鼓勵也跟你們喊話加油因為總預算卡在程序委員會裡頭其實對每一個行政部門都是一個很大的困難那我們也要發揮我們自己的一個"},{"start":339.409,"end":365.918,"text":"那個智慧那謝謝那接著主計長我再請教一下快過年了接下來各個地方政府都要花年終獎金還有考級獎金如果財政部統籌分配款無法無法足爾的撥補的話那地方政府怎麼過年那主計總處你的一般性一般性補助款會不會先撥呢還是先借給地方政府來過年"},{"start":367.999,"end":394.801,"text":"對 我們這個因為地方號過年的時候它初步報出來需求大概需要一千多億那一千多億這個部分我們有一些的譬如說社會福利方面的補助款我們就提前全部先撥來協助他們在一個財務的調度那另外在那個少子女化我們也一次撥到六月了所以整個整個調整下來目前大概有"},{"start":395.461,"end":413.529,"text":"五個縣市他缺口是20億那20億這個部分我們也足以打電話足以打電話去問他這個部分有沒有他們調度不調得過來他們都說OK所以目前是所有都已經協調完畢所以這個部分我們供應也發出去大概整個一個年關調度的時候"},{"start":414.69,"end":437.816,"text":"主席那我再請教你以台南市為例的話原本他是那個申請125億後來你們就是說大概是給了80億那其實這個會不會影響到台南市政府甚至就是全國的這個所有的公務人員他的考積獎金還有就是說他的年終獎金我只要你回答我會不會"},{"start":438.536,"end":467.396,"text":"不會啦 這個部分不會齁 你保證不會齁我們這是針對年關調度的一個特別的措施然後我們也很多的計畫事先提前撥款那是這樣 是提前撥款是 所以主計總署非常有信心就是不會讓地方政府斷糧因為我們逐一縣市都聯絡過對 你逐一都聯絡過是是是好 謝謝 那也跟主計長加油接著我們請國安部部長"},{"start":470.801,"end":484.233,"text":"是部長部長早安我想我們的國防預算是不是可以應付這樣的一個經驗經驗的規模一直都在擴大可是國防的預算卻被卡關到底就是說"},{"start":485.936,"end":514.941,"text":"我們知道就是說在今年的過年我們有很多軍人臨時被召回軍營甚至有不少人是在軍隊中過了一個跨年那在這裡也跟你們致意那就是軍演的規模變大了國防預算被卡住了到底你們要面對這麼大的一個花費這些錢每一次共軍的一個演練的一次我們應對的花費要增加很多"},{"start":515.741,"end":541.637,"text":"增加很多 那有沒有準備好報告委員 這個分兩個部分回答您第一個 這一次演習過程並不叫統一的召回它是各部隊戰備需求由各指揮官自行決定的召回是 不是臨時的召回不是一個普遍性的本來就是在議期中 就是要召回了"},{"start":542.037,"end":559.142,"text":"因為應付這個緊急的情況各指揮官自己下命令這是第一個部分那第二部分關於這次預算的影響剛才我也報告我再簡單講有四個部分嚇阻的戰力包括各種各樣的飛彈不對稱的戰力包括標槍"},{"start":560.902,"end":571.617,"text":"事爭等等還有戰鬥人員的保護譬如說各裝醫療等等最後是對官兵的照顧在這四個方面我們受到影響"},{"start":572.574,"end":590.692,"text":"好 那再請教你就是說整個軍演它其實是擴大了它的油錢的切口年年的漲那你這個預算卡關揮機可以不可以揮你看 你的油瓶採購逐年在增加連續4年已經不敷使用了"},{"start":591.332,"end":606.224,"text":"那如果你在沿用去年的預算當然我們知道就是說你可以用預算法54條你照樣可以就是沿用114年的預算照常的來使用可是這個軍演這個頻率增加了這麼大那你看"},{"start":608.246,"end":630.411,"text":"就是所有就是我這個跟你整理出來的從109年到113年甚至你114年你還增列了11億當然115年你才多增加了4000萬你是夠不夠啊你不能有飛機結果你沒有油錢啊會不會這樣子一個困境我們請主席回答您好"},{"start":631.738,"end":651.777,"text":"委員好 我是主席局局長有關油料的部分陳儒剛剛委員講我們是逐年都在調整調整的原因當然就是因為敵情威脅日趨嚴重就像上禮拜突然他又宣布要一個演習所以我們的油料可能我之前可以先用以前的經驗去推估 去調整但是因應突發的狀況"},{"start":653.55,"end":681.952,"text":"这笔钱我势必是没有编在原来的年度预算内那如果突发的状况你也一样有钱那你也准备好了你从哪边去挪用因为钱一定是灵活的这个预算是灵活的各位报告因为以油料预算为例115年我们编了116亿比114年我们大概增加了4亿多那这部分当然如果说现在这个时间你有增加4亿多"},{"start":683.693,"end":709.673,"text":"我們原本編是112億然後115年編了116億就油料的部分如果說現在我們去運用的話因為我比較增加數是4億所以在油料的額度上面可能我們會被管制的目前的額度大概4億如果上半年這部分如果是臨時的一些狀況我們可能要移緩計級增加的部分就是沒辦法去動資"},{"start":710.994,"end":719.941,"text":"好 謝謝賴委員到了下半年可能就有一點會捉襟見肘好 我們再來想辦法好不好是好 謝謝主席好 謝謝賴委員接下來我們請顏寬恒委員"}]}},{"id":"166787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166787","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b5884e7356723b349ef2e37ed2c5933891aaea507db77ca691829602ffc9a9b6cbf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:46:30 - 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謝謝委員目前體育班的業務是在教育部這個地方所以整體的推動會在教育部那個地方但是運動部會持續的跟教育部來做分工跟溝通那以我們本身的想法是我們希望小孩子在成長的過程當中"},{"start":209.352,"end":235.819,"text":"不要太過於強調競技的成績但是我們要發展的是小孩子的運動能力運動能力跟競技能力是不一樣的我們希望透過他快樂的成長過程當中就具備這樣的好的身體的能力未來有機會成為優秀的選手的時候再進入到專項的訓練而在這個過程當中他們的學習不要因為投入過長的訓練而導致的學習受到的阻礙"},{"start":237.859,"end":265.223,"text":"這是我們目前基本的一個立場他是透過一個逐漸的轉型的過程去達到這樣的理想我們也希望小孩子的比賽盡量不要長時間一次出去比賽三個禮拜 兩個禮拜這樣出去比賽就完全喪失了學習的機會所以在未來的賽制的調整當中我們會希望他留在家裡的附近當天比完賽 當天就回家隔一天早上還是乖乖的回到學校去做一個學生該有的學習的一個過程"},{"start":266.022,"end":292.556,"text":"非常謝謝次長 謝謝我們現在請考選部劉孟齊部長請劉部長委員好部長我想請教一下去年高普考總共多少人報考入取率是多少去年大概是 最後是五萬七千多五萬七千多人入取率大概接近15大學畢業的報考高考三級入取率是多少"},{"start":293.519,"end":308.719,"text":"我們錄取率應該接近15%左右我這邊看到是22.89%大學畢業報考的高考三級我想請教一下部長前年高普考總共多少人報考"},{"start":309.938,"end":336.214,"text":"应该是6万超过6万6万7508人那比起去年这个下降了8000多人对不对对那高普考如果加上初等考试特种考试升等考试跟军人转公务员考试2024年报考公务人员的总数是多少2024年大概是前年20大概2016万有到"},{"start":339.181,"end":361.942,"text":"16萬 看到數據16萬沒關係 我們可能還會再把特考也算進來這應該很多媒體都有報導然後 考那個 去年是多少去年接近15 去年是15萬 去年15請問你的數字怎麼跟我的都不太一樣我們人事長 我去質詢人事長 他預估他說是11萬"},{"start":363.171,"end":387.481,"text":"我們把這些再加起來再提供給委員可以嗎但是不管怎麼樣講實際上你可以看到整個的趨勢快速的往下掉我想請教您您知道根據考選部的資料2008到2015年馬政府八年任內舉辦公務人員考試平均每年多少人報考平均"},{"start":392.167,"end":414.807,"text":"45萬人你知道蔡英文總統的8年平均每年多少人報考委員因為剛剛那個數字可能裡面又有含到特考專輯等等是不是我們再去確認一下好沒關係我講公務人員所以你剛剛可能講的是包括特考專輯的在裡面沒關係現在是有減少是沒有錯"},{"start":417.438,"end":440.458,"text":"我告訴你就是蔡英文政府是25萬人 25萬3千多人可是剛剛已經跟你講到 你看到前年16萬 去年11萬不管是從馬政府的45萬到蔡政府的25萬然後到前年的16萬 到去年的11萬市長你有發現問題的嚴重性嗎"},{"start":443.345,"end":464.331,"text":"好選部有發現問題的嚴重性嗎這個人數的確是在減少不是減少是減少得很恐怖啊沒錯吧沒錯吧以11萬跟45萬的這個平均來看就是馬政府45萬跟去年的11萬來比較的話只剩下四分之一不到沒錯吧"},{"start":467.154,"end":494.78,"text":"數字我們容我們再確認一下我要考選部拜託數字還是要搞得更清楚一點數字容我們再確認一下幾乎在我們在講那個公教年改問題的時候已經討論一整年了這數字已經大家已經討論一整年了所以說我覺得部長這邊數字部分還是要再掌握一下那事實就是什麼呢就是整個的報考人數大幅下降"},{"start":496.158,"end":513.456,"text":"那我想請教一下就是說你覺得大幅下降的原因是什麼如果是這幾年的話主要還是市場景氣把技術類客人拉走了這個我們有去檢視他不只技術類的那個報考的大幅下降還是以技術類客為主"},{"start":514.6,"end":526.555,"text":"其他的还是全面都在下降下降的幅度没有到那么大但技术类科下降的很激烈你要拿降的最多的来比当然是技术类降的最多后面也会跟你讲我告诉你最重要的原因是什么"},{"start":527.802,"end":543.517,"text":"除了掃紙化的因素經常我看到很多官員答詢就講掃紙化掃紙化當然是因素啦可是掃紙化進行那個降幅那個協率沒有現在公務人員吊的協率這麼高包括公務人員的福利待遇跟退休條件"},{"start":545.098,"end":560.284,"text":"這些都大不如前也讓公務員不像過去被認為是一個嚮往的職業那以前公務員他擁有穩定的薪資待遇年資的續薪制度以及包括退休保障所以他就算被剝奪組織公會罷工兼職這些勞動權益他也覺得是"},{"start":565.126,"end":592.139,"text":"能夠接受但是因為犧牲權力可以換來退休生活無虞這是一個所謂的價值選擇可是很抱歉近年來我覺得這些功能都在弱化當中所以我還是要特別強調一件事情我非常遺憾說今天行政院不是說恢復公教的退休保障到2018年以前的水準而是光停侃的這件事情到現在的態度就是不執行"},{"start":593.066,"end":604.817,"text":"然後要去釋憲我覺得真的是無視於我們今天人才整個公務體系人才大幅崩解的一個現象我也希望考選部能夠多多為我們公務員發聲以上 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166786","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166786","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b5801949165545fc90d2e37ed2c5933891aaea507db77ca6918577c341b200dd5535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:33:21 - 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我們就是誠心誠意的拜託當他們視而不見 我們就要講得更大聲讓他們聽見全民支持運動的聲音讓運動員站出來讓運動團體來發聲"},{"start":197.144,"end":217.819,"text":"讓這些縣市政府知道他們的興建場館也會受到波及應當大家總動員一起對在野黨的立委喊話不要讓運動部剛成立小孩還沒開始學會走路他就先絆倒了他"},{"start":218.74,"end":242.781,"text":"我還是要再次強調要把這些事實要把這些內容向社會論述好不好我們再加把勁好嗎是的我看您質詢備詢一個早上您對業務非常的熟悉但是我們要讓社會一起來共感總預算沒有審查運動部新部會就是很大的影響再加把勁好嗎下一頁"},{"start":244.622,"end":267.154,"text":"那人力的部分人力到現在運動部的零補率只有64.8全民運動署也只有41.1還缺各缺111人各缺66人這樣要怎麼辦你要多少時間可以補多少這個可能請我們人事處的處長幫忙回答一下"},{"start":268.772,"end":292.803,"text":"我知道你們很努力啦 但是對 因為我們幾乎每一天都有職缺災公告上網那其實因為我想各單位都有缺人的一個情況所以我們已經盡量的加速來領補那這個部分我們已經就是各單位都非常的努力所以這也是有如登天海南的任務但是既然國家給了原額我們也編列了預算"},{"start":296.425,"end":314.551,"text":"沒有好的人才就沒有辦法做事一個部分是量要補齊第二個部分是質要更多元剛剛有很多委員都垂詢到今天的主題我們在考科有整併但是能不能夠達到新時代對於運動政策的多元的需求運動行銷 運動科研"},{"start":317.752,"end":343.064,"text":"體育 外交 產業 經濟我們的教考訓用有沒有精準對接很多委員都垂詢了我的結論是真的是還要再更整密的去思考它所以你量要補補進來的人也真的要能夠精準使用好不好今天這個可能需要更長的時間來討論但是我也提點出這樣一個我的主張 下一頁謝謝委員"},{"start":344.204,"end":372.45,"text":"人才要很多元我一直在講新時代對於運動政策的挑戰今天我不曉得你有沒有看到這個自由時報很大的報導中國對台灣發動的這些網攻資訊戰每日263萬次當然目前聚焦在能源設施能源基礎關鍵設施成長了百分之一千"},{"start":373.73,"end":389.002,"text":"在緊急救援或者是醫療體系成長了54%通訊的機構也成長了將近7%目前為止我們的運動發展設施好像還幸免於難"},{"start":390.183,"end":412.991,"text":"但不代表未來這些資訊這些網工不會來騷擾攻擊我們的運動相關的設施所以我說人才要多元我們有沒有足夠的資安防護人力呢謝謝委員的提醒我們其實對於資安這件事情運動部成立以來我已經"},{"start":413.991,"end":442.194,"text":"只一次的要求我們資訊處對於資安的這件事情在我們所屬的機關裡面的所有的資安必須要拉高等級而運動部在整個行政院的資安等級當中我們是屬於第二級是B級我們會非常努力的去把它做很好你們有意識到這件事情我們自己內建的人才要有相關的資安防護專業當然跨部會的協作跟速發部也要強化這些連結好嗎下一頁"},{"start":443.655,"end":467.122,"text":"同樣的這個中國蹭台灣的運動啊已經是他們現在開始鎖定運動統戰不管是對於個別運動員或是賽事賽會的加油團來打壓我們看到林昀如在中國比賽被迫別上了紅領巾我們看到我們世大運跆拳道的男團在奪得銀牌的時候還被中國代表隊來搶賀電"},{"start":469.143,"end":483.668,"text":"這些事情 個別事件 都讓我們知道中國把運動 沒當輸台灣他們看的比什麼都重 對不對小粉紅很脆弱 各方面都要來打壓台灣這是對於個別運動員"},{"start":486.269,"end":502.76,"text":"會造成的一個參賽的心理壓力在下一頁更嚴重的是2019年11月中國就發布了關於進一步促進兩岸經濟文化交流合作的若干措施當中就mark出來在運動面向"},{"start":503.641,"end":527.516,"text":"要啟動運動的統戰全面吸收台灣運動員及教練這是中國的統戰有步驟有計劃而且是現在進行式我們看到CPB中國城市的這個職棒的聯賽什麼都要訪我們的中華職棒連對名logo什麼長沙旺旺什麼這個這個什麼還有上海兄弟"},{"start":531.539,"end":551.245,"text":"都要吃我們豆腐都要蹭台灣的棒球這代表他們是有計劃甚至他們的CPB是30人的隊裡頭至少要10人來自於台港澳從來沒有任何一個國家他們預計2028年要成立職棒沒有任何一個國家鎖定單一國家去吸收成員的"},{"start":552.165,"end":569.23,"text":"所以說對於這些的因應跟防範有沒有列為運動部重要的一個政策面向當然是有的以職業運動來講我們唯一能夠做的先能夠做的事情是先讓我們自己的系統非常的好也就是他們沒有那樣的吸引力吸引我們台灣的天分的人"},{"start":571.131,"end":588.444,"text":"這是第一個要做的一件事情同一個時間我們從教育的觀點來講我們會持續的而事實上已經在做的是要讓我們的選手理解到在做這些事情的過程當中千千萬萬不要落入了那一個被統戰的一個對象這個是自己本身要有自覺性的"},{"start":588.684,"end":607.419,"text":"好 今天時間很短 我都點出重點那看來你們也有把這件事情要列為你們To Do List當中的Priority好嗎否則我們好不容易發展起來的壯大的運動的這些運動員結果最後被人家搶走了被人家去政治統戰了運動不分"},{"start":610.201,"end":634.842,"text":"顏色運動不要跟政治掛鉤我們就是要這樣子誠心誠意的來推展運動的進行最後一個運動員的權益這個是10月23行政院的運動部的諮詢小組第6次會議我們看到這個足球公會的代表也再一次的提出那當然足協的理事長新任也上任了可是呢"},{"start":636.144,"end":642.44,"text":"2022年開始女足國家對這些積欠足協積欠的款項是不是都還沒解決嗎"},{"start":643.982,"end":671.138,"text":"所以我從這件事情來看夏業我們其實都知道諮詢小組第六次會議鄭麗君副院長也提到了我們全面要來支持鼓勵運動員組工會而且要跟工會建立常態性的溝通機制現在台灣幾個運動員工會我的理解應該是三個女足直籃直棒我們要支持運動員組工會這個方向"},{"start":673.459,"end":693.799,"text":"然後已經成立了工會你要有常態性的溝通機制來知道他們需要什麼這是我們該做的事情下一頁但是我看到你們我們在運產條例當初在訂定的時候該修法的時候也提到要提升這方面的政府的作為不管是輔導獎勵補助各方面"},{"start":694.62,"end":709.551,"text":"但我看到你們剛剛公告的這一個職業或業餘運動員公會或團體輔導獎勵的補助辦法我歸納了四個特色第一個它還是行政補助的老套路"},{"start":710.492,"end":737.353,"text":"第二個也沿用了一般民團的補助的邏輯沒有思考到運動產業的特殊性第三個我認為不同工會的文化組織會有不同階段以及差異化的需求不應當是一致一套樣板第四個審查的流程欠缺明確的準則也沒有"},{"start":738.053,"end":759.99,"text":"足夠的透明公開這是我提點出來了幾個面向運動部成立之後我們照顧運動員的權益支持工會的成立而政府部門就要跟工會有運作非常順暢的溝通協力的機制我目前看到了做的還不夠"},{"start":762.597,"end":775.489,"text":"努力來做好嗎我希望我下會期可以成功的回到教育文化委員會我們就有更多的時間一起來支持我們的國家運動部幾個面向一起加油謝謝主席謝謝謝謝我們最美麗的51號"}]}},{"id":"166771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b5832fd9c17b55031673011a53eea80ce167d23619189f10e6c71fb96bad2f8966d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:17:38 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麻煩請陳主委請工程會陳主委"},{"start":12.26,"end":37.105,"text":"委員長 主委好 主委本次政府採購法歷來最大幅度的修法當然我們都希望說修法就是要看到問題來解決問題並且往前邁進 加強行政效率那現在我們政府採購法的工程會的版本也在做公告期間到目前已經公告了將近快一個半月的時間了那有沒有聽到什麼樣的一個回饋"},{"start":38.598,"end":60.071,"text":"外界很多人可能對於是說把三家首次公開招標達三家的投標加數的限制給拿掉這個部分是有疑慮的這部分有公開我們看到一些工協會有表達這個需要再考慮的意見是包括說工種理事長潘俊隆理事長就說這樣搞恐怕會有弊病"},{"start":60.851,"end":73.579,"text":"媒體也有報導而且講是說如果說一家廠商跟機關講好就可以開標決標長此下來可能會有後遺症如果說上市公司有上下其手的空間對採購的角度來講不太好"},{"start":74.925,"end":97.781,"text":"來 主委說明一下這個只要是時機已經不一樣我剛才提過採購法是原用39年的相關條例來辦理那過去政府辦理政府採購公告在比方說縣政府門口然後公開在報紙然後這個廠商要去領標也要到現場投標也到現場容易衍生一些微標那現在已經是"},{"start":99.842,"end":116.228,"text":"這個整個資訊這麼公開這麼多元所以所有的採購都公告在政府的電子採購網上面大家都能夠搜尋得到然後領標各種方式的領標都可以有郵寄然後有電子領標已經高達99.6%了"},{"start":118.749,"end":144.18,"text":"那這一次修法又新增這個相關電子投標的這樣的規定所謂資訊公開跟以前是完全不一樣不會有重複以前那種會讓廠商來脅迫其他廠商來微標的情形所以我們認為三家三除一家那麼這個因為資訊已經公開了所以衍生微標這些弊端是幾乎不可能"},{"start":144.54,"end":164.854,"text":"你只是像以前一樣就說他可能用技術性杯葛讓那廠商沒有辦法到場他就在門口等啊看誰來領標同行都知道所以就是你把標單拿過來這個暴力脅迫違標是過去經常發生的事情好 但是主委本席也看到這個工總理事長他也提到他說他也不是完全的反對"},{"start":165.695,"end":185.017,"text":"對 他有提到是說工程會可以審慎考慮如果最有利標取消三家投票限制這可以接受因為最有利標這個是機關部分他已經有一些想法他可能希望是說有一些比較這個業績比較良好的這個廠商來去做這個相關投標但如果說是最低價標"},{"start":186.198,"end":213.933,"text":"也要取消這三家那會不會衍生一個情況就是說有廠商他就投標投標完之後他可能不符合市場上的一個行情那到時候他又用其他的方式來這點說明一下因為我們要的是要避免弊案的發生我們最有利標大部分都是標的比較大的案所以他有資格的廠商相對比較少所以呢而且這個整個案的形成包括"},{"start":214.673,"end":239.143,"text":"核定包括這個預算都資訊都已經很久大家都知道所以我們說取消三家這個影響並不大那至於這個低價標一般標的是比較比較小價金額比較少的符合資格的廠商很多我們雖然說刪除三家的限制一家就可以開標但是那麼多廠商針對一個標的所以一家"},{"start":240.583,"end":267.94,"text":"單獨去決標的那個機率就是比例也不會太高啦所以我們目的是希望說這個大家都能夠第一時間去參與然後比較有效率主委那我想請教過去到現在因為我們也看到有報導講不具名的官員說其實現行法規無法第一次開標就決標小型標案頂多晚半個月大型標案頂多晚一個月那也因此"},{"start":268.78,"end":286.382,"text":"我們手邊一定有這些相關資料因為本席剛剛有提到是說最低價標其實就會擔心說如果你把三家的這個廠商的資格給取消了會不會就有可能就變成是特定廠商就持續的得標到最後變成是其他廠商覺得說我乾脆不用去投標反正我去也是陪榜"},{"start":287.658,"end":309.854,"text":"我們過去有沒有 你有相關的統計資料有多少廠商 多少標案因為不是三家而造成第一次流標 造成延宕這比例有多少我請蘇剛才回答來 簡單說明我相信你們應該已經有統計了就是說第一次因為沒有三家而無法開標的比例大概佔公開招標的70%70%"},{"start":312.416,"end":322.242,"text":"假設一年大概有六萬件的話大概有四萬多件是因為第一次沒有三家來而沒辦法開標的那平均延宕多久平均延宕要看那個"},{"start":326.377,"end":352.902,"text":"平均是11天11天但是因為它是大大小小的案件有的大案有的小案平均下來那可能當然是對金額比較高的案件影響比較大那小案本來它本質上就是比較輕微嘛所以平均下來大概是有這樣的延宕是啊 但是主委我想本席的選區也有很多重大公共工程是流標好幾次但是其實流標的問題"},{"start":354.602,"end":378.064,"text":"後來去做通盤檢討並不在於是說他沒有三家來投標他不夠三家而是說他的到底這個工程因為我常講殺頭生意有人做賠錢生意沒人做可能這個工程就是廠商他們來看了之後認為是說開的價格跟這個工程要完成的狀況其實是不合他的一個成本的所以他就不願意投標"},{"start":378.684,"end":401.389,"text":"因為剛才的11天是平均那如果說金額幾百億千億以上的大案那個第一次流標以後會時間比較長而且這個金額大有資格的廠商少往往政府機關採購機關就必須大幅的提高相關的預算那這個大幅提高相關預算如果因應"},{"start":402.409,"end":422.218,"text":"因應物價 因應相關的條件當然是也是必須的但是有時候是因為幾次沒有人投標那必須提高這個預算那麼這個也是導致重大公共工程延宕主委 因為現在都還在公告期間所以我們現在是意見的收納跟統整"},{"start":422.958,"end":451.629,"text":"本席也提出你剛這樣講話本席也提出另外的想法就是說如果說幾千億幾百億的大案第一這個案本來就相對比較少第二這樣子的案才需要更一流的廠商而不是只是便宜形式說我為了說要湊足三家廠商我變兩家或一家只要一家人來他符合投標資格我就可以給他發包出去而是應該是找到一個真真正正過去有時機並且也願意來投標的優良廠商嘛"},{"start":452.569,"end":472.434,"text":"所以這個部分我想你也聽到因為這都是報導上面有提過很多的一個部分所以我現在才想是說在公告之前防避是很重要的一個部分那心力就是說加速行政流程也是重要的部分但怎麼樣取得一個平衡點是不是全部都"},{"start":473.382,"end":499.808,"text":"解除三家的限制還是說最有利標解除最低價標不解除我覺得這都還是可以討論我們可以參與好那最後啊國防部最近的相關採購我想這個也要請教我們主管機關這個採購的主管機關甚至國防部長有難得動怒反向媒體說20年規定一樣只要能預約不用管說公司叫什麼名字登記在哪裡或說過去有沒有實務經驗"},{"start":501.721,"end":511.223,"text":"主委你對於這樣的講法能夠認同嗎這個是公司法的規定可能要請教經濟部啦這個公司他登記什麼項目我們現在講的是說我們要賣這個相關買採購不管是買炸藥買軍火買什麼可是為什麼搖身一變2014年以前都不是做這些本業的那突然間賣馬桶的也可以來幫忙買軍火"},{"start":524.906,"end":539.231,"text":"我的意思是說關於這個公司法登記營業項目如果有需要精進那就請經濟部提出精進那站在政府採購主管機關的立場您剛剛也提到幾百億或是幾十億的這種案要不要有經驗我們要呼籲政府採購機關在採購合約的時候應該"},{"start":546.334,"end":569.435,"text":"更加強調那麼廠商所需要服務的專業我們也呼籲廠商在採購合約裡面賣馬桶的有沒有賣軍火的專業不是 這個是涉及到賣茶葉的有沒有賣軍火的專業這個是涉及到公司的公司法裡面管理營業項目的登記這個目前不是工程會主管那麼經濟部他主管公司法他有他的規定"},{"start":570.336,"end":597.103,"text":"是啊 主委 但是您您是身為我們全中央主管機關的採購法的主管機關嘛那本席就想請教啊就是我們政府採購相關的一個條例裡面到底我們的專業認定在哪邊那如果說這樣的話因為為什麼本席特別點出這個問題國防預算從2016年馬政府時代最後一年編列3000億左右到現在一年我們的本預算成長到9000億"},{"start":599.09,"end":619.277,"text":"那人員的部分一回事那如果說口除人員以外其他都是採購啊那因為都是其他都是採購所以說我們才要更重視專業啊所以我剛很認同主委剛講法啊你一定要有相關的專業啊而不是像國防部長惱羞成怒講說為什麼要管他"},{"start":619.984,"end":642.82,"text":"為什麼要管他什麼名字什麼背景反正他能履約就好啦能夠這樣做嗎包委 站在政府採購的立場就剛主委講的要確保履約嘛那當然他必須具有專業所以他的政府採購的管控是分兩階段一個是所謂的基本的規格 基本的資料那這個機關他可以依據採購的個案去設定"},{"start":643.3,"end":663.857,"text":"那麼現在會衍生這個問題是因為在公司法的管制上面他並沒有不會去針對特別譬如說貿易他不會去講說你是做什麼樣的貿易除非他有所謂的專案有些特許的行業不能理論上他不會就做這個區隔但是在政府採購法上面如果說他達到是一個特殊的"},{"start":664.457,"end":688.377,"text":"或者是巨額的採購的時候他還可以再要求其他的譬如說他禮約的時機等等的所以事實上並不是採購本身設計有問題而是個案在執行的時候應該符合這幾個標準去執行比較不會跟社會的認知落差是 所以說這就是本席強調的為什麼在這件事情上面會奇怪的地方第一"},{"start":689.398,"end":717.191,"text":"為什麼很多的公司都是2024年之後搖身一變他去做變更營業項目登記然後就有軍火相關的項目他就可以來得標那再來是過去都沒有投標的經驗突然間他要來投標跨行 隔行如隔山就沒有想到他可以直接插進來然後國防部就可以得標而且他就可以有履約那某種程度上大家就覺得是說這樣子履約行不行他採購機關是可以限定一些時機啦"},{"start":718.709,"end":743.387,"text":"是那但是國防部現在都沒有設定國防部現在都沒有設定所以主委你講到重點啊你來行人啊所以你講到重點就是國防部現在都沒有設定任何的資格他就是完全open只要你能夠履約然後廠商就來投標就得標然後他過去也不看說他過去是賣馬桶的裝潢的賣茶葉的那買的是子彈欸買的是軍炸彈欸"},{"start":747.717,"end":775.991,"text":"那這些都是官兵弟兄地線要操作的那如果說有一個品質等相關不好的情況會不會造成官兵弟兄的危險還有剛才提到的它大部分都是貿易 國外進口它並不是自己生產所以採購機關 採購機關它事實上可以訂立相關條件是 所以沒有訂立是不是就有瑕疵有時候我們採購法就希望公平公正但也不能夠有一些過當的不當禁止"},{"start":777.011,"end":805.091,"text":"主委所以本席真的在這邊我們可以在交通文化好好的討論不帶任何立場今天是國民黨執政如果說有這樣子離譜的標案我一樣提出嚴正的指責是因為本席要的是國家的預算花在刀口上並且要的事不是說國內可以生產成本的價錢還要去跟國外購買買三倍四倍五倍的東西很多東西都是"},{"start":806.335,"end":822.335,"text":"講白了我們要在這邊做的事情是防弊也要心理行政部門效率要提升可是不能再因為預算增加從3000億變9000億頂變大了結果反而特定人士上下攜手的空間變多了所以我們這次修法裡面把"},{"start":824.117,"end":850.696,"text":"採購企業法案本把他這個剛性化來請貴文大院能夠支持將來工程會就更有工具來拘束機關管理政府採購的企業所以本席在這一次的這個禮拜的排案討論請詢答沒有逐條審查就是本席也要等行政院的版本也就是工程會1月15號公告完畢之後送行政院有沒有信心下個會期可以送進來下個會期可以"},{"start":850.956,"end":865.248,"text":"好 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公司的統一編號公司的地址天啊"},{"start":409.448,"end":432.556,"text":"檢舉人他又不是狗仔隊又不是情報員他哪有辦法知道這麼多他只要具體的告訴你哪家公司或者哪個個人不是這樣嗎這些公司這些被檢舉的人你們要查的時候你們自然而然的有辦法有他的其他的資料不是嗎"},{"start":433.796,"end":451.913,"text":"跟委員報告這個就是關於檢舉的這一部分那目前可以領取這個檢舉獎金的就只有自由貿易港區的這一部分可以來領取但是目前我們查獲的這些案子我們移到貿易署去裁罰的這些268案裡面"},{"start":454.215,"end":481.17,"text":"都不是來自自由貿易港區啦都是來自課稅區跟這個保稅區那課稅區跟保稅區目前的貿易署呢目前沒有提供相關的檢舉獎金我就是跟你講為什麼檢舉案是零你把被檢舉你說檢舉人要講自己的身份這個應當 他要具名嘛他要勇敢承擔啊不是但是被檢舉者啦"},{"start":483.41,"end":494.983,"text":"他只要檢舉人能講出哪個公司哪個個人哪個集團其他被檢舉人的資料你們再去查啦 是不是這樣"},{"start":497.198,"end":511.25,"text":"簡化啦 你懂嗎只要要求檢舉人你不能隨隨便便檢舉你不能匿名檢舉因為這是多重大的檢舉啊不是嗎我原來的意思我們懂 我們了解好了 那另外我跟你講齁這個我們人均GDP齁"},{"start":514.452,"end":540.823,"text":"比方說去年我們說我們有7.37的經濟成長率那人均GDP也因為這樣子調高人均GDP變成我們來到4萬美元但是我們全民的感受就是說看得到 知不到不是這樣嗎就是說我們的經濟成長率有7.37那麼高但是我們全體人民並沒有說因為這樣就有感"},{"start":541.926,"end":558.616,"text":"然後GDP來到四萬美元看得到吃不到所以我是認為這些亮眼的GDPP背後有不可以忽視的產業的變化我們要注意那為什麼要你財政部注意"},{"start":559.496,"end":584.107,"text":"除了政策上以外因為你管這些公營行庫也就是說你如果看這些表格就是說ICT產業那麼我們以去年我們就以去年三個月來講它的成長是非常好我們台灣最驕傲的電子零組件直通產品這些我們的成長率大概都有兩位數這非常好但是相對的我們產產業"},{"start":588.149,"end":603.819,"text":"傳統產業從基本金屬 機械等等到化學品 橡膠品 礦產品等等還有這個食品類大概都下滑大概是下滑了兩位數字所以我意思就是說我們"},{"start":605.301,"end":616.377,"text":"國家我們政府要注意這些資源不要讓他偏掉那麼財政部你們要交代複稅署交代他們說第一點不要對產產業過度的苛責動不動"},{"start":622.182,"end":636.844,"text":"表現很老的公司你沒事也是去把他查查稅這個部分要減少不要去騷擾人家第二點銀行的貸款的部分我們是不是不能只重在資通產業在高科技業"},{"start":637.685,"end":659.814,"text":"因為他們已經很成熟很進步啦他們的資金不會太大的問題但是產產業尤其在這一次美國關稅這種打擊之下他們現在遇到很多困難那麼公營行庫民營的我們沒辦法只能用勸說但是公營行庫這八大公營行庫部長"},{"start":661.835,"end":679.88,"text":"那個次長這些八大供應銀行部董事長總經理都是你們派的他們都是關股所以你交代他們應該對產產業在這個資金的融通方面給予優惠給予補助至少不要雨天收傘"},{"start":680.94,"end":703.294,"text":"跟委員報告這一部分我們很早就已經通令下去特別是對那些比較受到台美關稅衝擊的這些傳統產業絕對不要雨天收傘這個我們已經強調很多次而且他們也是朝這個方向來走我們希望就是說在最困難的時候能夠協助這些傳產能夠走過這個最困難的時刻"},{"start":707.396,"end":717.321,"text":"好很好你們有這麼做就好那坐月子中心我希望你另外我們再來研議看看會後你另外給我一些答覆好不好是是是謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝王委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員"}]}},{"id":"166792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166792","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b589b08ded8f1b2b14e2e37ed2c5933891a4a653833dddfd2f1e73c87840dd1d42a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:12:22 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我請我們考選部劉部長還有我們運動部很專業的黃次長委員長"},{"start":20.191,"end":41.773,"text":"先請教兩位,尤其是我們黃次長,就你的專業來看,一位運動部的公務人員,你到底是去懂古希臘的奧運的起源,還是去懂如何用大數據來分析國民的健康,你認為哪一個對國家整體的幫助會比較大?"},{"start":42.845,"end":61.497,"text":"對未來來講當然是大數據的分析國民的健康是比較重要的但是對於運動的源起他如何開始跟社會之間的互動了解古希臘時代的也需要有一點點了解但是在比重上面來講我認為對大數據的理解程度應該是未來的一個需求"},{"start":62.097,"end":89.218,"text":"所以不偏廢但是對未來影響重大其實我們應該更去注重那其實我一直在看我們這個整個體育署升格為運動部以後組織架構的一個調整去反映了我們政府是想將體育事務從傳統的學校的體育跟那個競技的奪牌然後擴展到涵蓋整個運動產業運動的科技國際外交跟全民的一個健康這樣的一個全方位的一個戰略"},{"start":90.279,"end":118.512,"text":"但是光是組織架構的一個硬體的升級本席一直都在這個地方一直講說這個其實是不夠的還是要有現代化治理能力的一些軟體才能發揮更大的一個預期的一個效能這個就是本席上次在這個地方考試院應該跟運動部來討論國考體育行政的科目的一個考科的一個調整因為整個運動部的核心公務員人力如果"},{"start":119.622,"end":137.986,"text":"被外界或者說還是一樣這個整個新憑據裝罪就久的話沒有辦法達到整個運動部體育署來做一個升格運動部這樣的一個我們預期的一個目標啦所以我請問考選部長就是說上次本期諮詢完以後考選部你們這裡應該有去跟運動部你們應該有去做討論過嘛"},{"start":141.667,"end":145.973,"text":"有討論過 跟黃次長討論過是啊 我這裡剛好有一份你們去年11月10月幾天前後的會議結論就是說你們開會的意見就是說維持列考行政法 運動自然科學還有體育行政跟管理整併世界體育史"},{"start":160.311,"end":176.552,"text":"運動社會學就是世界體育史跟運動社會學變成一科這樣而已運動部曾經建議新增運動科技學運動科技學考選部說後續將事實的去做一個研議看得出來"},{"start":177.984,"end":199.164,"text":"你們的想法裡面考選部跟用人機關在研商的時候你雖然去簡化了考科的一個共識但是對於納入具備未來性的運動科技我看你們還是持這個保留的一個態度並沒有保留跟委員報告因為它最主要是時程問題我們現在先處理的就是115那這個必須在116做"},{"start":201.47,"end":223.983,"text":"116因為牽涉到一定要動到科目他就要刪減考試規則新增考試規則新增那個新的科目裡面的命題大綱所以他需要一個作業時間那他包含法制作業還有我們要相互的去做命題大綱甚至還包含命題那必須在他需要一個作業時間然後我們希望可以在116年1月前就去"},{"start":224.543,"end":253.055,"text":"所以這個沒問題因為我剛是非常用心在聆聽黃次長你的答詢黃次長剛你有去提到運動自然科學傳統上涵蓋的太多太多但是你也認為說這個是一個絕對是一個核心的一個專業可是沒有去運動自然科學裡面你沒有辦法去完全去提供到你未來你像譬如說你維持實務運作體育行政人員更多面臨可能是如何去評估一個運動科技園區的"},{"start":254.355,"end":280.573,"text":"投資的一個效益啊或者說如何去制定一個電競賽事的法規的一個架構啊如何去利用這整個大數據的分析國民這個體適能的資料來制定更精準健康的一個政策這一些就像黃市長你剛提到的運動自然科學裡面沒有辦法去充足的提供所以還是我看部長你的見解是認為說不是不愛不是保留是明年"},{"start":281.648,"end":297.341,"text":"對 因為它那個如果牽涉到因為今天其實很多委員的槌尋那這都牽涉到如果對這個類科做比較大的變動牽涉到還是剛剛說的三科目 真科目然後修訂命題大綱那一定要有增有減有增就要有減"},{"start":298.642,"end":324.02,"text":"或者的話會變成是說就這個單一類科考生的負荷過重其實它歸在文教行政裡面的直系好幾個如果其他人都只考四個專業科目就他考一個五科六科那個反而對他不利也就是以後他取用人才反而可能走其他的類科進來所以我們最主要是說要讓他維持在對考生還是要適當的負荷當然法制作業跟命題作業他一定需要"},{"start":324.941,"end":344.258,"text":"就是我們預計就是116年1月考科你們既然都已經討論了啦就是要往前走了啦其實國外啊也值得我們去做一個參考啦你如果去跟國際做比較的話你台灣現行的體育行政的一個考科的一個設計啦譬如說世界體育史啦 運動社會學啦我看隔壁我們日本比較先進的國家已經沒有在考這個了啦"},{"start":347.148,"end":367.507,"text":"他們應該沒有在考這個目前在討論三井科目跟合併科目其實你們都是做一個微調考科要如何去符合用人機關的組織目標跟應對時代的一個變遷真的好好再想一下本席倒有一個想法就是說我們現在都是大行政小法人"},{"start":368.248,"end":385.646,"text":"我覺得這一點我去看了我們去比較我跟日本來做一個比較特別要來請教黃次長就是說我們要怎樣去整個體育行政的行政的公務人員一般的體育行政嘛一般的體育行政但是他們的核心的機關裡面體育廳裡面整個人一百十個人而已"},{"start":387.898,"end":399.8,"text":"一百十個人而已反觀我們台灣我們新的運動部那個緣額的一個編列是302人差別在什麼地方呢日本除了體育廳以外剩下的都是執行的手腳的法人"},{"start":400.683,"end":422.655,"text":"那都是法人那也就是說日本體育政經的中心JSC的原額裡面是多少人855人那也就是說是他們公務機關的八倍但問題是如果這個放在台灣的話我們又被批評了就是說在日本他們是政策是歸公務執行他們是法人他們是法人"},{"start":423.075,"end":448.283,"text":"那在台灣剛好很矛盾我們就很矛盾公務人員禁用仰賴國家考試還要受總原額法的一個限制所以理論上我們必須要靠行政法人去補強專業的一個人力公務人員課出來不用給他騙了顧料在那個行政體系裡面真的就是會僵化你在執行這確實是要一些法人可是呢我們又常常我們的社會又把它變成說這個地方是肥貓養老院這些單位也常常"},{"start":449.043,"end":464.653,"text":"就綁手綁腳實際上對社會感受不太到那所以呢台灣未來運動的整個發展到底是要走傳統的這種大行政或小法人還是要仿效國外靈活的小行政大法人這個確實公務機關讓公務機關在做決策的時候"},{"start":469.056,"end":478.994,"text":"我們都期待說它可以像企業一樣去執行面對整個市場的一個變遷現代化的一個行政體系裡面如果挑到更好的人"},{"start":479.69,"end":497.484,"text":"我心裡是這樣的,不然你光是升格,光是升格,人也沒完,你不覺得,次長,這很好笑嗎?你說的確是這樣,沒錯啦,我們一直期待法人能夠獨立的去運作,也就是運動部站在單純的督導,"},{"start":499.505,"end":515.929,"text":"監督的角度我們去看他有沒有符合我們政策去做出具體的結果出來我們期待我們的法人的作為可以根據政策的方向做出獨立的判斷去更有效的去推動他們的業務現階段的編制國訓中心大概是150個人左右運科中心大概116個人"},{"start":520.79,"end":539.845,"text":"產業中心100個人持續隨著他們業務的推動擴張我們並不會限制他們絕對不可以擴編先把業務逐步的規劃出來做到一個程度之後那個時候要來增加人力我們再來做處理誠如剛剛所提到的產業中心今年預計聘的人為44個人"},{"start":542.187,"end":565.58,"text":"因為業務不可能一步到位 它要逐步的來一下子在業務沒有釐清 聘那麼多人進來反而是社會爭執的一個焦點因此我們採取比較穩定的 穩健的一個方式來進行先把基礎打好 建構我們該做的業務範圍之後逐步的來增加人力 運科中心也好 國訓中心也好只要人力有需求 運動部絕對不會去擋他們"},{"start":567.341,"end":574.968,"text":"很好 希望可以做出一點成績我要問那個劉部長是皮克球你聽過嗎聽過有在拍嗎沒有你沒有在拍剛好我剛好在問那個問部長 次長在聽這個美國起源於美國這樣的一個皮克球我看過去這五年裡面"},{"start":587.734,"end":609.919,"text":"我看是爆炸性的這樣成長爆炸性的一個成長也就是說我看美國這樣的一個匹克球連續五年 三年他們成長最快速的運動項目2021年 四百八十一二零二五 兩千兩百七十幾萬那亞洲的成長的一個速度也很快中國他們預計未來五年內要擁有超過一萬座球場跟一億"},{"start":610.919,"end":623.937,"text":"一億潛在的人口印度兩黨內的給五萬並成立的職業聯賽越南 菲律賓 馬來西亞都一樣台灣現在也越來越多去年超過十萬嘛那我要"},{"start":625.397,"end":652.652,"text":"請次長繼續努力的地方就是說匹克球能夠迅速在世界各地爆紅門檻高然後全齡化 高社交簡單的就是簡單就可以上手小朋友到年紀大的都可以在台灣目前是在一個成長期去年匹克杯 世界杯我們的選手三金三贏一統這樣的一個好成績也就是說台灣有潛力既然有潛力的話"},{"start":654.171,"end":672.387,"text":"運動部就說你變產業那台灣有頂尖的這種碳纖這個複合材料的一個供應鏈還有網球拍 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我先請阮次長好 阮次長次長好 等一下談總預算比較沉重一點先講一點好消息好了這個股市上萬點 這是第一次吧第一次 股市上三萬點那有沒有預期說這個上三萬點會來得這麼早"},{"start":26.873,"end":46.187,"text":"會怎麼樣來得這麼快那麼早還是本來就有預期了因為市場真的是很難預估不過最近因為我們這個像比如說像AI或者是說高速運算等等這些這個新興的產業的發展真的非常的快速那當然也反映到這個股價上面"},{"start":46.647,"end":69.538,"text":"所以我們的股市現在整個市值都超過100兆以上所以居全世界第八位所以過去大概很難預料但是現在看起來是今天已經正式超過3萬點以前大家覺得說3萬點好像不太可能發生但是今天就發生了所以市長認為這一個上3萬點的原因是在哪裡"},{"start":72.289,"end":93.3,"text":"最主要我覺得還是我們幾個關鍵產業的發揮重大的一個作用我們都是AI 高科技我看今天能夠上三萬點應該也是台積電的功勞台積電它今天就漲了95塊它只要是漲一塊它就帶動八點所以它今天大概帶動了七八百點了吧它就貢獻了七八百點"},{"start":94.02,"end":117.939,"text":"對啊那這個大家也在關心就是說這個會不會成為這個今年的股市又是成為這個台積電一個人的武林因為大家有去看過就是說去年雖然我們股市有在漲每個股民平均賺也是大概平均大概賺140萬左右但是我們有將近百分之四十幾家的這個所有上市公司是在這個年限以下的"},{"start":118.699,"end":139.737,"text":"超过一半是在年限以下的所以这其实市长认为说这样子的发展健不健康当然我们是希望说产业的发展能够更平衡目前是有一点两极化的味道就是比较高科技的跟AI有关的跟高顺运算跟伺服器有关这样子的发展对台湾的经济来讲"},{"start":141.06,"end":159.589,"text":"這樣會好嗎因為反映在股市上面因為其實你看今天雖然是漲到3萬點但是下跌的比上漲的加速還多所以這一部分可能就是希望我們在跨部會來努力能夠協助那些比較相對比較傳產的這些產業能夠持續來升級"},{"start":162.95,"end":186.972,"text":"對啊 不要就是說今年還是變成是台積電一個人的武林就是只有它獨領風騷這樣其實長期以來對於台灣的產業發展並不好就像次長所講的會呈現兩極化的發展所以這個可能要稍微注意一下是 我們有在注意好 謝謝次長接下來我們請這個國防部徐副部長好 國防部徐副部長"},{"start":194.019,"end":215.065,"text":"副部長當然這兩天最大的國際新聞就是委內瑞拉的總統被美軍抓走了然後外界就說這個是一個美軍對於委內瑞拉的一個斬首的行動當然有些人在台灣就會講說那中共是不是也有類似的這個斬首的行動其實他們的這個斬首行動是從"},{"start":219.233,"end":232.385,"text":"2015年 據手邊有的資料2015年其實他們就是在內蒙古的朱日和他們一個基地其實就開始了那2015年 這還不是民進黨執政這是國民黨執政時期所以從2015年其實"},{"start":234.467,"end":250.046,"text":"這個在中國來講他們就在他們的內蒙古自治區朱日和他們就有一個模擬總統府的一個基地那當然現在這個基地這個越做就是越像那去年十月日本的智庫國際研它也有提到一個報告"},{"start":251.127,"end":274.896,"text":"中国人民解放军正在强化对台湾的这个斩首作战的演练他除了有总统府还有模拟我们的司法院模拟外交部甚至连这一个他们所谓的这个地下通道到底有没有其实我也不确定模拟一个从司法院到总统府的一个280公尺的一个地下通道那请问一下你们对于这一个中国解放军的这一个斩首作战的类似的这种计划有没有掌握"},{"start":276.553,"end":297.981,"text":"包括我們國軍有突發狀況處置規定對於各種突發狀況我們有想定然後根據想定進行相關的訓練所以也包含解放軍有可能會進行整首作戰是的 包括委員相關的敵情我們都有納入年度的訓練計畫裡面"},{"start":299.939,"end":319.024,"text":"那所以說對於這一個中共這一個他們的一個在諸日和的基地的這一個部署的情況你們也都有掌握嗎包委員是的有關共軍所有的這個比較大型的地面的訓練中心那我們情勢是都有做掌握好那我再請教一下副部長今天的這一個"},{"start":321.144,"end":347.97,"text":"報告當然最主要就是說所有的我們關於這個新興的計劃新增計劃我們的預算都會受到影響那我看到這個國防部的報告裡面那特別有提到就是說我們有一個F16型的這個作戰資源夾艙還有這個武器彈藥的這個籌購案這個是整個計劃會受到影響嗎就是它有新增額度的部分會受到影響那新增額度大概會多少會受到影響"},{"start":350.387,"end":358.372,"text":"你們這邊寫200億是包含精準火力打擊系統還有魚叉飛彈還有F16型的甲艙還有彈藥籌購還有M2000G10附件的存量需求這是你們的報告"},{"start":372.796,"end":385.796,"text":"因為這次的這個中國的軍演裡面那至少我們看到說我們這一個F-6型的這個甲艙它有競爭鎖定嘛 對不對那接下來如果這個預算沒有通過的話那這個方面是不是會受到影響"},{"start":386.826,"end":406.32,"text":"是 包委員我是建軍處處長這方面確實是會受到影響這方面美軍剛跟合約商訂約如果今年沒有預算沒有過的話將影響到後續的備料跟產制作業那整個案子大概是30億元就是說我們已經決定要跟美方買了"},{"start":407.691,"end":424.099,"text":"但是因為總運算沒有通過所以變成說我們這30億沒有錢去付 去付美方所以就拿不到這些是算是零件嗎 還是怎麼樣會影響到組件的交運那接下來怎麼去因為中國軍演他隨時來就來那接下來怎麼辦"},{"start":429.941,"end":459.341,"text":"我們必須要透過各式的會議跟美方協商後續是否可以準時的交易那我們也會向立院委員說明希望能夠讓預算盡量的進步因為你們很多啦包含這一些我們要購買的武器也會受到影響包含這一個標槍飛彈 四針飛彈那甚至連這個油料的撥補都會受到影響嗎對都會受到影響 那怎麼辦增節使用 那你也不能說這一個他來的時候我們不上去啊"},{"start":461.665,"end":478.38,"text":"陳錄委員講的這些項目都會受到影響我們還是很希望說能夠盡快審議讓這些受影響的程度能夠盡可能降低我覺得受影響要跟外界說明清楚尤其是在中共軍演剛結束的時候不論是我們的國防預算還有我們的軍購的預算都被擋"},{"start":482.924,"end":508.993,"text":"然后也要对外去澄清那现在在野党都讲说这个特别条例什么只有两页A4纸然后就要拿到1.25兆我们现在讨论的是条例不是总预算这个东西要对外讲清楚但是在野党都是内行人讲外行话他就跟你讲说条例现在才两页然后就要拿这个1.25兆预算你条例不够的话你怎么去省总预算呢我觉得这个东西都要对外去讲清楚因为就像这次的这个军演"},{"start":510.083,"end":524.193,"text":"中國也釋放出很多的假說訊息這等於是說除了這個正式的軍演之外這個資訊戰這個一些訊息戰也是變成說這一次在中國軍演的時候他們也有特別去琢磨那至少我就看到了"},{"start":526.455,"end":539.863,"text":"有一些類應該就是他們的認知作戰比如說還講我們的部長去休假了然後無人機還飛到我們這邊來拍攝101的照片然後還說我們F6V的戰機鎖定他們這個是P圖類似這種的假設訊息這些資訊戰國防部掌握了多少"},{"start":553.171,"end":582.691,"text":"有沒有馬上就回應啊我覺得我比較在乎是這個因為我有觀察到說你們沒有在第一時間就馬上就回應沒有委員這個部分其實您現在上面所提的其實我們掌握到了以後我們需要立即查證然後我們以最快的速度不論是用圖卡或者是新聞稿而且我們每天都有召開記者會都有及時的說明所以你說他們說無人機拍攝到101照片"},{"start":583.994,"end":587.146,"text":"这个我觉得用大脑想就是假的不可能飞到这边来"},{"start":588.73,"end":607.122,"text":"確定沒有進24海里所以我們立即就在圖卡上面公佈在我們的臉書上所以我覺得這個東西要及時去澄清因為其實我覺得軍演是歸軍演但是他們利用這種認知作戰的方式是企圖要影響台灣的這些明星士氣就覺得說這個無人機已經飛過來要飛到這麼近或是說他們的這個殲擊的戰機已經飛到這個恆春半島已經飛過去等等之類的"},{"start":615.227,"end":638.056,"text":"然後還說他們飛過去我們也拍不到我們雷達也偵測不到等等之類的這些我覺得他們是利用這次軍演其實就是在測試在測試說第一個我們的反應能力怎麼樣有沒有即時能夠做澄清第二個說我們到底台灣的內部士氣有沒有受到影響那是不是有人也跟著一起附和在傳播在散佈這一些假說訊息這就是認知作戰的一種我覺得認知作戰"},{"start":638.996,"end":667.965,"text":"比目前的軍演影響都還要大啦老實講啦因為這個是直接影響到這個台灣內部的這些明星士氣啦我是要求你們就是說在第一時間確定了這是假訊息但是說什麼部長沒有去開會這些東西都要立即要澄清因為我看很多是我們有相關委員先澄清之後你們的圖卡才出來其實不應該這樣子這個大家要注意因為接下來中國類似的軍演跟認知作戰只會越來越多啊"},{"start":668.944,"end":677.554,"text":"謝謝委員指教 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麻煩有請運動部的政事請黃次長"},{"start":20.205,"end":44.608,"text":"委員你好你好我一直關心運動體育館運動紀念館運動博物館的事情從日本甲子園的歷史館我們要保留當代優秀選手以及整個國家對於運動的歷史記憶法國在尼斯的國家體育博物館"},{"start":45.936,"end":67.282,"text":"可以說是一個相當成功的典範目前展出有10萬件運動的產品那美國當然他們在職業比賽非常興盛的情況之下那他們重要的大聯盟也有所謂的名人堂這樣子的博物館出現"},{"start":70.573,"end":89.759,"text":"過去從學者到球員包括了成大歷史系的教授包括了我們非常知名退役職棒的選手也是目前球牙基金會的創辦人周思齊都在大力奔走台灣需要一座國家運動博物館當初李洋部長在上任"},{"start":98.53,"end":123.765,"text":"部長之前上任部長之前大概9月9號他上任部長的時候他說他換了辦公室但他初中沒有忘記我們來看一下李洋當初的初中他在7月4號的時候行政院體育及運動發展部諮詢小組第五次會議記錄他說我們有許多資深運動員的歷史沒有被傳遞"},{"start":125.222,"end":145.089,"text":"那使得該項目運動員幼苗對歷史不了解且認同度不高他贊成設立運動博物館這是部長上任以前在諮詢小組會議當中他的初衷那今天沒有機會請教到部長但沒有關係部長雖然不在但我覺得我們"},{"start":147.335,"end":166.863,"text":"的運動部應該有一個政策立場上一次8月7號我請教鄭世忠市長的時候我必須要老實講鄭世忠市長非常會講官話官話一堆說是往這個方向去進行目前執行的進度到哪裡"},{"start":167.816,"end":180.302,"text":"目前我們運動國家運動博物館已經在做評估的工作也就是我們拜託成功大學的謝士淵教授幫我們在做整體的規劃我們期待把那個規劃做出來之後這個規劃要多久"},{"start":182.881,"end":202.632,"text":"半年之內可以完成半年之內規劃的內容是什麼它就是未來的選址跟未來舉行的樣態現階段我們已經在做的是因為博物館是一件事情可是這一些第一個事情我們先把規劃的內容是什麼先講清楚第一個要成立這個是確定的嗎是第二個你說它在規劃還包括選址"},{"start":204.873,"end":217.63,"text":"沒有要選擇 他是告訴我們希望能夠有什麼樣的樣態再提供給各地方政府來提出所以你說這個事情是半年嗎這個計畫本身 這個規劃案的本身是半年"},{"start":218.174,"end":237.739,"text":"那半年他要提出來說裡面大概要放多少東西那需要多少面積然後讓各個地方政府來爭取是嗎他會把先從功能上來講起而不至於到那個小細節大概要有多大的面積不是啊 我現在關心的事情是我們的政府啊非常會做委託研究啊"},{"start":238.854,"end":266.683,"text":"花納稅人的錢委託研究做一堆啊我真正關心的事情是什麼我真正關心的事情啊是針對有關於運動文化記憶的收藏保存在線展示及推廣這個是運動部組織法第二條裡面本部所掌理事項的範圍嘛是的那按照部長所做出來的承諾我們就是需要一個國家級的運動博物館嗎"},{"start":268.103,"end":285.533,"text":"那整個期程你們有沒有估計需要多久半年要做規劃沒有關係那你就去做規劃那半年規劃完了以後呢他就會根據那個規劃的東西我們把細部的需求給提出來細部的需求提出來需要多久"},{"start":290.823,"end":316.037,"text":"做事情要有時辰啦要不然全部都在講空話啦我很擔心這一屆立委結束以後下一屆立委再上來問一樣是在研議啦需要多久目前絕對不會是研議就是朝著沒有關係嘛需要多久就說清楚嘛需要兩年需要三年還是不知道他真正要提出來那一個選址的東西可能要到明年去因為這個東西明年可以選舉選址是嗎"},{"start":318.134,"end":344.722,"text":"可以提出來沒有關係我們就記得今天的詢答內容看明年是不是真的可以開始選址站在新北市的立場我當然會希望新北市大力的爭取國家級的運動博物館就設立在新北市新北市幅員遼闊有很多很適合的地方等你們初步的規劃出來了以後我們再進一步來談第二件事情"},{"start":347.725,"end":352.709,"text":"我第一次當立法委員的時候我們在推動體育改革那時候蔡英文全國運動全國體育高峰會體育政策有五大策略等到2017年我們結合了民間的力量推動體育改革的時候蔡英文是怎麼說的"},{"start":375.031,"end":403.427,"text":"協會的存在是為了幫助選手不是要壟斷資源不能好好照顧選手的協會我們就叫他改革這是當初2017年的時候在推動體育改革提出來的願景我離開立法院四年以後我再回來立法院我非常驚訝的發現過去所要改革的協會到底改革了沒有"},{"start":404.502,"end":433.39,"text":"看了令人瞠目結舌啊我們國家級的選手出去比賽出場費沒有拿到結果竟然收到扣繳平單錢沒有付錢沒有付結果竟然收到扣繳平單啊這是什麼荒腔走板的事情啊這件事情我揭露了以後我揭露了以後當初的教育部"},{"start":434.506,"end":462.703,"text":"體育署只能拖就拖 能混就混我受不了我才請審計部進來幫忙查賬審計部查完了以後 認為知識體大非常嚴重 要移送法辦市長 知不知道我在講哪個協會知道目前這個案子進度如何目前他們積欠款的部分已經有做了部分的償還兩個部分 第一個部分"},{"start":463.817,"end":489.683,"text":"沒有給選手錢竟然選手會收到扣繳平單這是公然的偽造文書嘛當然是移送法辦嘛這個已經移送了當然嘛 是你們移的喔是你們移的喔你好意思在那邊講這麼大聲喔是你們移的嗎是你們移的嗎當時我不在部裡面沒有關係啊那針對這件事情有哪些人被懲處了"},{"start":492.294,"end":513.209,"text":"應該還在調查當中吧還在調查調查到今天還在調查這不是很可笑嗎調查到今天還在調查我聽不下去啊一年多了到現在還在調查要調查到什麼時候不用一直按啊剛審發會質詢了16分鐘啊"},{"start":515.632,"end":541.992,"text":"我有計時啊 就按照同一個規格比照辦理就可以了我也沒有要求要多審判會質詢了16分鐘不相信你直接去掉袋子還要調查多久還要調查多久不知道懲處了哪些人根本就傳過水無痕嘛根本就傳過水無痕嘛"},{"start":544.841,"end":570.114,"text":"看到這麼誇張的狀況 想想蔡英文當初對全國人民的承諾不會覺得很可恥嗎 不會覺得很諷刺嗎還不僅是這個樣子迷你足協 體育署 這迷你足協很厲害啦 非常夠力啊每一年補助迷你足協上千萬 上千萬"},{"start":572.113,"end":594.925,"text":"民主主席也很懂得啊要怎麼樣配合民進黨在進行各式各樣活動啊的操作結果呢結果我公開檢舉公開檢舉說民主主席裡面胡搞瞎搞戰亂七八糟我2024年3月的時候我就檢舉了10個月過去9度詢問"},{"start":599.907,"end":623.432,"text":"給你們要資料 就是不給那是教育部體育署那個時候的事情等到成總預算的時候我要用凍結預算的方式 東西才肯交出來交出來還用密件遮掩我是不曉得這有什麼好密件的啦怕全體國人知道迷你足協啊 污了一千六百多萬"},{"start":624.98,"end":644.693,"text":"用假的單據搞了一千六百多萬更誇張的狀況是什麼更誇張的狀況是我每一次質詢都說會去追會去把他押回來甚至還在公文書上面造假說他已經繳回來我進一步問數字啊我嚇一大跳繳回來的五十三萬這個數字現在有變動嗎 有增加嗎"},{"start":652.453,"end":672.009,"text":"確實的數字我不清楚但是我們當時的做法是希望他要償還當然啊 但是我覺得我們國家對民營主協很寬容誒誤了一千六百多萬只還回五十三萬 剩下的錢怎麼辦我繼續追才發現說哇 十年分期付款"},{"start":673.789,"end":695.64,"text":"是迷你足協才有這個待遇還是大家都有這個待遇以後是不是所有的協會比照辦理拿假的單據污了錢以後要你把錢交回來迷你足協可以分10年分期付款以後所有的協會都可以比照同一個規格10年分期付款這個是現在我們運動部的政策嗎"},{"start":699.417,"end":728.406,"text":"這是運動部的政策嗎 當然不是當然不是 那奇怪了啊 那迷你足協為什麼可以跟大家講清楚嘛憑什麼他可以如果這不是運動部的政策憑什麼迷你足協可以 其他協會不可以講個道理嘛我看不懂啊因為迷你足協八股比較強有人撐腰所以分十年 是這樣嗎"},{"start":730.333,"end":756.895,"text":"我們是希望他能夠償還 你一下子要讓他償還他償不出來 他還是沒辦法所以我們是希望他承諾在十年之內還清涉及到相關的犯罪行為人在民法的侵權行為上全部都是共同侵權行為人都要負連帶的損害賠償責任運動部隨便問一個律師就知道大學二年級法律系的學生就可以回答"},{"start":760.77,"end":766.975,"text":"請教一下我們昭偉很有名的律師共同侵權行為人 負連帶損害賠償責任給他分十年 但是呢民意足協已經連續兩年會都開不起來了沒有辦法正常運作在這樣的情況下你還給他分十年錢追得回來嗎會都開不起來了 錢繳得出來嗎"},{"start":788.001,"end":815.574,"text":"有在認真追償嗎 這是我的問題啊運動部做了這個決策 給他分10年償還到時候錢沒有交回來 誰要負責任誰要負責任誰拍板給他分10年分期付款的誰要負責任還是反正到時候時間久了沒有人會記得這件事情了 呼呼欸算了 mentor 是這樣嗎"},{"start":818.669,"end":844.617,"text":"是這樣嗎不會那你要怎麼確保你十年收的回來這是我的問題啊我的理解當時是在雙方協議之下做出來當然嘛我如果是免你租錢我當然跟你做這個協議嘛我爽的不得了啊我爽的不得了啊法律責任不追究共同侵權行為的損害賠償責任不追究還十年分期付款到時候人都不曉得跑到什麼地方去了"},{"start":847.43,"end":867.7,"text":"當初誰做這個決策的誰拍板 他可以分十年分期付款的誰決定的 誰決定的誰負責嘛在政治上本來就是這樣嘛誰掌握這個權利 誰做這個決策 誰要負責嘛誰做這個決策的不知道"},{"start":870.086,"end":897.038,"text":"沒有關係回去找麻煩市長轉告李楊部長這是我的問題這不是李楊部長的國我也不會怪在他身上因為當初他還沒有接部長嘛但鄭世忠一定很清楚請部長回去問鄭世忠當初誰做的決策的那個決策的會議紀錄一個禮拜之內送到我辦公室來可以嗎"},{"start":898.533,"end":915.604,"text":"給我們一點時間去找好嗎一定找的到啦還是現在毀屍滅跡連會議記錄都燒了不會絕對不會嘛你需要多久但是一個禮拜可能對我們來說沒關係一個月好不好一個月之內送來可以嗎會議記錄的部分可以可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"166785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b587041763b38f1d6343011a53eea80ce16aea507db77ca6918a2f0af228fb527a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:32:25 - 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感謝主席本時邀請我們工程會的陳主委來 陳主委請委員長主委早主委我今天跟你探討一個很多人都擔心的問題就是我們政府的工不服務我們當然需要人才但是現在欠很多人"},{"start":24.981,"end":44.675,"text":"現在有專業的工程方面的人才他不願意到政府部門來有可能牽掛這個、這兩天你要看考選部也發現了這個問題所以考試院考選部也提出一個警告你要看我們最近各課"},{"start":45.987,"end":71.271,"text":"對於2022年開始土木工程類缺用情形2022年還沒有缺額再來23年欠135個到今年欠240個那政府部門如果沒有這些專業的公務人員來執行土木工程的相關業務那這樣當然拼盡我們就會反落下"},{"start":74.966,"end":83.05,"text":"人家要先探討為什麼臨時不該來,當然有幾個原因,我們剛才說的,可能是工作多、接臨時,或是說,如果扣掉技術的資料,或是說民間部門有更好的工作可以開在等人,那他們可能就會選擇民間部門,第一個啦,"},{"start":97.401,"end":110.045,"text":"考選部的分析 讓你做參考我相信柯慶英這個主流不知道是否合理我沒有跟你們討論過兩次我知道 就三個幾個部門嘛考選部 權需部 還有我們工程會大家有來開會說這問題要怎麼解決有幾種嘛 第一不可以來扣嘛第二扣到了不可以來報名"},{"start":117.839,"end":133.453,"text":"這個很嚴重喔有將近三成 最高三成他入局以後他不來報到課程我就不可以來第三就是說他到了以後他做不了多久他就辭職他就離職了這三項所以主委你說你開會了這問題要怎麼解決"},{"start":140.163,"end":167.842,"text":"的確是委員剛才指導的確情形是這樣子目前持續推動就是希望比較像醫師的不職業獎金這一類增加獎金的方式讓具有土木類專才或有技師資格的能夠多一些獎金第一個第二個甚至在考量考試的方式考試的類科或難易程度"},{"start":168.462,"end":195.463,"text":"你是要幫我比較好嗎你的意思是怎樣考試院有在考量因為怎麼考試是考試院的政策那第三個他會尊重你的意見第三個就是說土木類科我們分中央跟地方地方又分東部跟西部我們是中央還好中央這個當然沒有這麼嚴重地方就更嚴重了鄉鎮公所比縣市政府更嚴重"},{"start":197.305,"end":221.346,"text":"鄉鎮工程他職等很低嘛那東部呢花蓮台東屏東澎湖這些考上的他去那邊就要待下來了幾乎都沒有報到所以我們目前工程會在推那種比較偏遠地區的培訓你要用培訓班嗎對我就是要跟你討論這一題所以我們目前在明年度要在花蓮要跟宜蘭大學合作辦一個學分班那你現在遇到一個問題"},{"start":223.228,"end":237.689,"text":"第一個總預算不通過這個也是昆明黨也看一看這個問題剛主委點出一個重點你一些譬如說花東的地方離島的地方人才不願意去更嚴重"},{"start":238.69,"end":262.125,"text":"你像在工廠裡面,很多人都不想去花東,課程也不可以報到那怎麼辦?所以工程會,你這個辦法我是支持你他現在去辦土木工程學分班學分班跟宜蘭大學合作,因為花東那邊沒有土木科系希望可以吸引更多人,就是說他至少給他一個在地的人來培訓他現在中午的時候沒過"},{"start":263.154,"end":285.468,"text":"我們就 你就副分局總召你不來看嗎這幾個月是為你們辦的為了發動 為了推動重大工程的需要你現在總裕山沒過這種新的辦理的事項你都沒辦法做了其實鐵道局也有說過鐵道局說他現在最缺人的就是東部分局"},{"start":286.636,"end":304.609,"text":"地牢也一樣 很多人都不可以去停泊公路也一樣 公路也一樣鐵道局很嚴重啦 現在有87個 現在有90個 剩下27個所以這個 我舉這個例子就是說 你總算沒過其實受害的啦 中央地方都受害啦"},{"start":305.992,"end":316.625,"text":"藍綠政黨都受害了 體育政府接近的都公民黨比較多你現在在很多界外技術對體育政府重要 緊急需要的你現在都沒辦法做"},{"start":318.166,"end":344.693,"text":"好了 最後一段時間 我要跟主委因為時間要跟你討論 職災公安的問題因為我跟這一點 台灣的職業災害有一點嚴重你看我們的重大職災傷亡 這是羅東坡統計越來越多人稍微有下降但是營造業下降速度很慢主委你看 我們營造業"},{"start":350.153,"end":370.132,"text":"這個從2014年到20 就是最近兩年營造業平均一年都要有150萬重大的 每個月都要十幾個人有重大之災的傷亡死亡 我講的是死亡大家可能不知道 台灣的營造業是很危險的環境"},{"start":372.956,"end":401.324,"text":"來照這個數據我看現在一年要死150個一個月要死十幾個這營造業的整個屬於重大職災而且佔了我們全體重大職災的一半一半所以不夠你這個要贏多少台灣人有多少就算是外勞偏多我不知道啦我沒有拿到進一步傷亡人的背景"},{"start":402.523,"end":409.349,"text":"但是這麼高的死亡率,死亡人數,我看是絕對的人數,而且它降價速度很慢,這兩天對於160倍才降到145個,這對於職災的防範,我們有在檢查嗎?"},{"start":424.778,"end":440.373,"text":"工程會應該有你負責因為這幾年我們有一些重大工程譬如說大規模的高樓層的深開化的這些都真的有一定的規模性還有危險性那麼"},{"start":441.516,"end":463.143,"text":"我希望我們工程會作為公共工程主管機關應該可以如何叫勞動部來協同從管理制度面來熱衷抗擊自災風險來保護這些工人寶貴的生命也不要讓他們受到傷害尤其是西方人手"},{"start":464.471,"end":477.052,"text":"主辦機關 合作啦 都是我們公家的台電啦 公路局啦 隔鎖公路局啦所以這點不是真的要注意 你這裡有什麼看法"},{"start":478.447,"end":497.635,"text":"好謝謝這個除了勞動部有利他的依依他的職責在做集合之外工程會會去集合那另外呢我們在法制面在公務工程的評選那裡面會有關於職災的扣分的一些規定甚至重"},{"start":498.815,"end":525.288,"text":"比較重大的會報伊林尼條款的停權你講到這 剛好就是我要跟你提的我們有一個扣點沒有錯啦我們的扣點的定義有一個中度比較小 嚴重比較多什麼叫中度 什麼叫嚴重根本上沒有這個標準就要三個評審委員自己決定所以我覺得應該要有一個明確的規範它缺失的程度"},{"start":526.38,"end":546.627,"text":"第二,這個靠點最令我生氣的就是比如說高差兩公尺以上你沒有防止墜落的安全設施所以叫撥下來,嚇死了第二,施工價不穩定,所以你站不起來撥下來第三,公區內外安全防護措施不夠"},{"start":548.197,"end":567.32,"text":"重複一直發生只要你說你集合得好你不應該這三點原因不斷地重複出現這是我跟你說的所以我們目前的集合扣點制度絕對有問題否則每次這三項都改不改都永遠排在最前面"},{"start":568.53,"end":584.383,"text":"所以我要請我要這種所謂齊頭式的施工查核我認為要再改變應該先針對高風險的工程加強密度管理我這是看日本怎麼做我可以提供"},{"start":586.465,"end":607.251,"text":"注意你做參考 日本就有重點監督制度 它特別條列出來你只要是這幾種的工程 這幾種施工的方法比如說深開化 做高度 高橋墩 這個都是極度危險的或者是說你是第一架得標的工程"},{"start":608.186,"end":630.626,"text":"他都認為你可能會節省成本安全防護措施的不足所以他有特別表列出你如果是這幾種他會提高他的監督查核的頻率還有標準我們現在是沒有我們現在所有工廠平均的檢查頻率都變多了其他主要原因是從哪裡來的第一 什麼檢紀"},{"start":632.898,"end":647.189,"text":"檢舉啦 民眾檢舉 媒體報導啦我們都不會有啦 第二有啦 你說低價得標偏低的啦第三 工程品質欠佳的你說你大概發現的時候 都是已經被動式了"},{"start":648.07,"end":650.433,"text":"我們希望讓台灣能夠降低我們營造工程的危險性"},{"start":665.811,"end":678.896,"text":"我看到的那種壽林對我們來講可能就是一個數字但是對董事長就是家破人亡的慘劇你想一年平均營造的市一百五十幾個"},{"start":681.677,"end":694.406,"text":"各位都要洗澡幾個這個我們看了非常痛心好不好這個我們遵照委員的意見來看必要的相關制度法規或規範來做修正好感謝主委謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"166784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58b25e848ba6080ea13011a53eea80ce16aea507db77ca691819d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"10:15:26 - 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陳進德主委請"},{"start":19.568,"end":29.496,"text":"委員長 主委長 我對這項修法非常憂心我看你探討幾個 因為我知道很多 為了要修法 因為法保在各機關內有面臨很多困難面臨很多挑戰 所以我想說要來修改"},{"start":39.673,"end":61.032,"text":"但是如果放了太多人就對了我認為說你們這個收這個二十條是規定什麼情形下可以拆除選舉性的手錶嘛就是說原則上我們原則上是公開手錶嘛都是公開差別原則上公開手錶但是選舉性的手錶就是說首先扮演你手上的主角選擇之後呢你來建立一個名單就對了"},{"start":67.318,"end":89.448,"text":"今天明天大約 只要邀請這些已經經過審查過的聰明來這樣就可以了就不需要再辦理公開招標了嗎不是不是不是不是都是公開招標沒有喔我了解到的應該是不是你現在要修法的方向是這樣嗎它是每一個個案這個個案公開招標公告之後"},{"start":90.388,"end":101.411,"text":"有興趣的廠商會投嘛 按照我們設定的資格選出來你現在就是說 貼紮 審查 簽證 合計 簽證的名單之後不是所有的 是每個個案你現在要修正經 我們現階段就是說大概有幾種 四五種的情形可以辦理選擇性的指標啦 現在啦 現況啦"},{"start":113.328,"end":123.008,"text":"如果這樣 你現在先請教的一項就是說經過主管機關認定者 機關就可以辦理選擇性招標"},{"start":124.93,"end":143.123,"text":"對不對 對好 來 主管機關什麼人工程會 就是你們嘛 對所以你們經過 人經過之後他就可以辦你選擇選的籌票了怎麼還有什麼公開的籌票工程會是例外就是說如果在這些要件裡面碰到一些特殊的"},{"start":144.143,"end":161.774,"text":"主委啊 不能再例外了啊 這很誇張耶這樣就要搞大事的大條啊跟我們報告 他這個先建立一個所謂合格廠商 並不是一個我知道嘛 你因為這個條文你這樣一改在全國的 全國的那個標的只要你工程會過了OK啊 你說的可以的全部可以選擇那個採用選擇性的標啊 跟不是這條"},{"start":173.126,"end":198.179,"text":"我感覺牽涉很大主委啊我跟委員報告工程會並不是採購機關我們是政府採購的主管機關我知道嘛 但是這些變成是你們認定可以機關就可以採用工程會不會隨便認定這樣你就變成管理有夠大公共工程委員會管理有夠大工程會不會隨便去限定一個"},{"start":201.071,"end":208.914,"text":"這個沒有特殊的情形會限定說沒有啦 你這樣變成公共工程委員會你如果認為這幾間廠商可以這樣其他所有財幹部門都沒辦法"},{"start":216.357,"end":235.186,"text":"他就要照你們的規定去用 因為你們有特權嘛你的權利是有夠多的 我也可能誤解了啦不是 但因為你現在講的辦法是說你剛剛解釋是說我公共工程委員會 我不會亂買你誤解了 我們不是指定說哪些廠商可以我們是指定哪些採購的這個標案"},{"start":239.528,"end":256.439,"text":"如果說經濟官來請示那工程會當然會來考慮對嘛 它清晰過 只要你公共工程委員會 你可以就可以了嘛那機關就可以採用限制性招標了嘛 選擇性招標嘛明確就是這樣嘛這個對機關採購比較有彈性 沒關係啦 因為這還沒成立還沒煮熟飯啦本席今天給你提出這個 這是說大家國防有意義了啦"},{"start":268.519,"end":287.709,"text":"是不是可以修復得更漂亮是不是可以修復得更漂亮我不是指責你啦 我也不是在質疑你是說將來就變成 公共工程委員會變成太上皇這樣 今天如果你在做主意 我相信你啊外面的人來做主意 我不一定相信這個委員 大家個人有意見啊所以包括這個22條 第一項第六款 這很重要"},{"start":296.178,"end":312.587,"text":"什麼情形可以拆除犯罪性的招標犯罪性的招標就是 不用公開招標啦我給大家報告 這樣比較快啦甚至連功課都不用啦犯罪性的招標就是這樣嘛 就可以直接找鄉鄉來簽約啦這種招標的特殊度就對了啦 是非常特殊啦"},{"start":321.363,"end":348.534,"text":"理論上來講就是說 應該要重演嘛 既然要做限制性招標就應該要重演才對馬哥 你現在在這個條文裡面 我看到的是有第18條的第3項 你們把22條第1項第6款裡面有一條我 主委我告訴你 沒在跟你不知道沒在跟你沒注意到喔裡面有一句說 因為能預見之情形因為能預見之情形 你竟然把這規律拿掉"},{"start":351.151,"end":376.078,"text":"哇 這事情更加嚴重本來是規定說在周邊的環圍內我們未能意見之情形所以必須追加工程以外的工程是這樣啊所以不需要 如果要另外周邊會發生重大不便嘛所以這有很多困難所以我們才會這樣做嘛結果你現在把這個意見"},{"start":379.465,"end":387.854,"text":"因未能意見之情形 要把它提掉 提掉就變成怎樣一百萬要追加四十九萬就對了 追加五十萬他也不用再照表 他就照原本的想像來說說就好了"},{"start":393.442,"end":421.627,"text":"我跟委員說明這句話是罪語就是因為未能預見之情形當然每個機關就是因為未預見所以到時候執行的時候預算高就是做的時候高於原預算或原不然因為未能預見之情形就是阿伯在管控的時候你是不是你如果沒有 如果我沒有就對了譬如說我們倒過來講假如我是承辦機關我如果有心要做工作"},{"start":423.769,"end":449.88,"text":"我這工廠一千五百萬我好保一千萬就好我好保一千萬特定的人我製錶料好了我後面五百萬我不用再製錶了你現在改料後就變這樣他的程序都沒有變跟原條文都沒有變你現在改料後就變這樣不是 刪掉這個因未建之情形必須追加企業以外之工程等等等所以"},{"start":451.754,"end":463.895,"text":"他的這個他的原來就是說你這個機關呢必須追加企業以外為什麼必須追加企業以外就是因為未見之情形嘛所以我現在跟你說你這個一句拿掉"},{"start":466.511,"end":479.539,"text":"我剛才說的一千萬發保料我阿伯要再兌加五百萬我不用再照表了這個跟這句話有關啦我直接找原本的衝衝來做就可以了這些程序跟這句話刪除不刪除是無關的那是無關的那阿伯檢調可以辦不可以辦就有關還是無關的"},{"start":485.823,"end":492.933,"text":"比較無關的 主委你怎麼這樣想呢你真的要把這個條件組結放到領候所有的審判機關裡面 大家就肆無忌憚"},{"start":501.294,"end":515.985,"text":"就已經有九零了 坦白說現在要用採工法去辦這個荷包價就對了要保修我們的荷包 坦白說檢調單位就已經攔上咖了你現在再這樣 他們就摔上咖身了 他們要怎麼去辦啊再來就是說 群眾要來控制 群眾要來控制"},{"start":523.887,"end":541.937,"text":"施工現場在這個條件好啦 工廠的設計都算啦現在是公民眾來控制你們公家就是符合未能意見之情形你們裡面有這樣討論啦結果你們基隸就是說因為有這個情形所以我們把未能意見之情形拿掉我告訴你 你來討論是這樣這樣是不對的 不好啦主委 你不覺得這樣是有矛盾的嗎"},{"start":552.728,"end":579.052,"text":"那我四個 我今天要拔雞骨我地方發包 我叫人出來控制一下就好了那承辦機關我可以用嗎這不好啊我的意思是說在阿伯鄉親法律以前我提供這個意見是因為有人建議希望修復更嚴謹一點不是說"},{"start":582.458,"end":586.06,"text":"這樣做就一定會有問題啦你這裡沒有問題 下面會有問題啦大家保留順便康啊對不對他就在想沒有牽絆的 要專家的人就是在想牽絆結果你把他創造成牽絆 還要大牽的對不對 限制性的招標就是不必公開招標啦甚至連工格都不必了可以直接找鄉鄉來簽約如果這樣呢"},{"start":611.63,"end":620.295,"text":"這就對鄉鄉很優待嘛那你現在要把30條改成什麼改成 限制性的支票 不用收阿表金 吼吼吼 這樣有的有這個情形嗎 來來來這是免分的勝利 我跟你說 我要給你賺就像最近郭鴻波那樣的採購就對了你不用啦 免分的啦 我要給你賺你不用金分 不用阿表金 吼"},{"start":640.407,"end":662.324,"text":"啊這來攤那個大條 沒啦這這樣你會害到老總統啦變成他起來做總統 啊修啊 整個修得靈活活 更加高級的 整個變成不用拿本的 不用金本的 能更加高級啦欸主委你可能沒注意到 四節有這部分喔我有看到 你有注意 我昨天晚上還在看"},{"start":663.28,"end":683.826,"text":"他是講說勞務採購有沒有除了正當禮物外免收押標金保證金等他並不是所有的限制性招標都不能收押標金剛才委員可能有所誤解我請副主委來補充說明這個其實本來原來就 換得更寬原來是說溢價的那種情況他得免收嘛"},{"start":684.286,"end":694.453,"text":"那為什麼限制性招標 現在把他限縮到限制性的招標沒有換款 你沒有放課 有影響什麼有什麼要放課 藏二票金就不用如果今天有市議結束 股票有二票金這樣 對你有什麼風險"},{"start":710.356,"end":730.389,"text":"本來就他本來的規定就是溢價方式辦理的採購免收押標金我們沒有放寬我們是把他的免收我來問限制性招標裡面不用公開招標一條30條的規定限制性招標不用收押標金"},{"start":731.209,"end":747.346,"text":"限制性招標得不公告所以他並不是全部不公告這跟有人說明那原條文免收押標金是溢價但是限制性招標除了溢價之外他還有一些評選我把問題說出來"},{"start":754.844,"end":782.26,"text":"我是希望阿伯送出來叼文你們要注意一下啦我請教那個副主委啦像我們追求廠商的押標金齁在法律上啊公法上不當得力請求這個這個見解請求的請求的時號是5年嘛對不對一般的公法的請求權來我來看看你們想要給他改2年是什麼那2年多大家照料料"},{"start":782.984,"end":809.156,"text":"因為我們基本上是因為是從機關他得知或可得而知啦那個一般的公法上請求權他的每一種方法計算的這個起算點不大一樣所以我們基本上是把他統一那我們也不希望你統一我問你你才會越綁越硬我們邱兄弟就在不良的邱兄堆就堆不回來你現在堆五年五年就有時候我們堆不回來你總要改造兩年"},{"start":813.254,"end":824.641,"text":"我也覺得奇怪 你們的手法若是對政府有保障的我支持你嘛 沒有問題這個是指機關你知道了要去追那你知道了一直不追"},{"start":826.168,"end":849.441,"text":"這個期間的這個調整嘛所以你不能說你這個你寫的不明確喔你現在是在給我解說你跟我說你知道了你不追所以兩人沒有喔調文就是這樣啊調文就是這樣子對不對這個是除資期間的規定知不知道來知不知道的認定是怎樣我是認為在要限縮"},{"start":851.906,"end":854.212,"text":"執行者的權益的時候我拜託你一下這條你再索賀一下"},{"start":862.086,"end":878.12,"text":"我再跟委員說明他並不是說兩年沒有追到不能再追我如果兩年內都沒有啟動要跟你追追查那時候你不能再主張我告訴你就是說我們過去34條第三項"},{"start":882.024,"end":896.635,"text":"割標進行必須保密但是你現在拿出來的手法就是說底價及其他足以造成限制競爭或不公平競爭之相關資料於結標前除了有特殊情形外應以保密"},{"start":897.835,"end":911.721,"text":"本來就都喜歡保密 為什麼現在有特殊情形什麼叫特殊情形有的要去訪假嘛沒有啦 你現在有的要去訪假我不是不想你去訪假 但是本來都要保密的東西你現在給我擺一個特殊情形 就可以不用保密了這個東西撈出來 想要算什麼"},{"start":922.794,"end":942.249,"text":"我請副主委來跟您說明原則上當然是要保密嘛原則上要保密但是他在每些個案進行的時候有時候他必須去進行比較或者協商那在那種狀況底下他可能就必須要公開啊什麼叫特殊情形公開是公開這項還是公開全部"},{"start":944.71,"end":969.376,"text":"那當然是要看他那個個案的性質到底哪些可以公開哪些不能公開我們沒有辦法足以把所有的情況在法條裡面寫清楚那你就變成是說有你們的施行細則在上面那也是一個方法如果說有累積足夠的個案我們可以用施行細則來進一步規劃那現在因為他是沒有那個例外的條款變成講對這一點"},{"start":971.943,"end":997.205,"text":"副主委 你們要頂這些私刑細則 希望上這個委員會 上來分析一下沒有啦 什麼關鍵 我可以提早給國家負責採訪的人 給你們提供意見你們用用的 會搞不好下落 會對自愛難行 搞不好大家開火事件都必然重生 這裡崩那裡崩好 這個我們再個別跟我們一起請教好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166783","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166783","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b589da801288943b8e93011a53eea80ce16aea507db77ca691819d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:03:25 - 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主委"},{"start":78.426,"end":99.36,"text":"那個公共工程目前對這個所謂的錄製的產品或零件的管制原則第一個就是說如果涉及到治安或者是國安譬如說這個關鍵的基礎設施那這裡面可能要如果有問題的話要斷絕這個所謂的紅色的供應"},{"start":100.541,"end":129.309,"text":"那在個案裡面因為確實像委員講的因為這整個國際的貿易形態的關係可能沒有辦法百分之百的禁止所以目前是由機關那麼看標案本身的性質以及它的採購的目的如果說真的是沒有辦法它必須使用但是沒有國安考量的話也沒有其他產業上面對本國造成不公平的狀況底下原則上機關是可以例外去採用"},{"start":129.909,"end":159.749,"text":"好 据我目前了解掌握到了当然现在我们在做这个事情投标前是有透过经济部的相关平台就是主管机会去查说他当年当然他的投资的这个书面有没有问题嘛这第一个比较简单的部分那第二部分当然看说产品本身验收的时候这个产品本身他没有符合相关的这个产力的规范嘛但是我们从实务上看到过去几件当然这个跟大部分都跟国家安全比较有关系的几个单位包含中科院陆军司令部各单位还有桃园捷运等等的"},{"start":160.189,"end":185.565,"text":"它的理論上 包含說我們看到一個這個所謂的監視器主機的主機板它是在台檢疫組裝之後然後貼上面等於台灣 台灣製造的標籤或相關的很多的相關的採購都有這個問題所以我才問說到底我們訂了這樣子的規範那我們政府有沒有能力去在事前去查那如果事後被人家檢舉才發現的話那中間的空窗期的這個責任由誰來承擔"},{"start":187.663,"end":214.357,"text":"採購機關或它的上級機關它當然不一定要等驗收它隨時到工地都可以去查核那作為主管機關的工程會當然也有集合小組所以是盡力可以隨時都可以查核那我們碰到一些個案有時候是驗收的時候才發現有時候是當初沒有得票的廠商檢舉的所以這一類的情形算是情形也算嚴重那機關當然可以提報停權"},{"start":216.058,"end":239.372,"text":"來依照101的條文來提報停權這一類還是陸續有發生沒有錯我知道剛剛其實主委沒錯就是說會停權嘛會有相關的懲處但是我想問的是說因為這次已經發生了比如說我們列出這幾個案他已經發生了那發生後你們繼續停權那停權到新的廠商投標之前的這段時間的空窗期或這個部分的這個補救措施我們現在有機制做這個東西嗎"},{"start":241.564,"end":264.364,"text":"就這個階段這個時間空窗的時間要按照他的合約來做停權或者廢標的一些程序或是請副主委來講說那個就是有關這個怎麼去發現當然在採購法跟採購合約上面那麼機關他可以要求廠商提出證明譬如說你進口那你要提你的來源證明給我看嘛"},{"start":264.784,"end":281.19,"text":"那我們現在跟這個海關總署那邊有建立連結將來可以直接由廠商指定把這個進口報單報給機關他就可以查核但是比較難查的是貼牌那貼牌就要靠"},{"start":282.09,"end":306.082,"text":"查核檢驗或者是有內部檢舉那如果說他被發現有這樣的一個情況機關他會進行停權的程序在停權過程因為不確定是不是有過程停權可是就他這個機關本身他如果核有規定他可以禁止他來參與他本身這個機關的其他的標案但是就很難禁止他去參與其他機關的標案"},{"start":307.142,"end":320.951,"text":"因為這個庭前不確定如果說立即把他禁止的話也有可能最後發現是烏龍所以這兩者之間變成是有一個取捨了好 副主委我們先請你們等一下我們請國防部這個採購室採購發報處處長好了"},{"start":336.372,"end":354.153,"text":"剛好這幾個案子跟國防部都是比較有相關然後想請教一下就目前來說因為國軍採購是禁用所謂大陸地區香港澳門產品認定及履約驗收的作業這部分那這部分的話你們因為房廠或因為茶廠然後在事前能夠發現的這個比例有多少大概有嗎"},{"start":355.515,"end":370.909,"text":"有發現過嗎事前如果去房廠因為你們有這個房廠的相關規定嘛在工程契約裡面可能有相關的規定那因為事前去房廠然後發現他的這個產品不合規的比例有嗎多多少少有發現過但是這個比例沒有來統計過"},{"start":374.372,"end":395.169,"text":"好那在你看到就其實因為我覺得第一個是我們現在已經有這樣發生已經已經有這麼多案件了那再一個比較核心問題是我們現在對美採購的武器也非常多那今年去年去年年中的時候有一個美國的這個數據分析公司他公布的最新的國安評論報告裡面光是五角大廈他的"},{"start":396.19,"end":414.562,"text":"這個一級的供應商裡面他有大概百分之十百分之九點三的這個產業是跟這個中國有關係是中國直接投資等等的那我想問說我們我國現在國防在採購裡面對於美國軍售部分我們有沒有辦法去禁止使用大陸的廠牌中國製造的廠牌跟產品我們有相關的條約嗎還是沒有"},{"start":417.367,"end":435.548,"text":"還是對美採購他只要美國願意送來他只要願意願意賣給我們我們只要買得到都可以他裡面的這些零組件有沒有使用到中國廠牌因為為什麼今天特別在這邊提出來這問題因為這個問題其實包括美國國會自己也非常關心說他們也是透過這一次的報告才發現原來他們自己"},{"start":436.469,"end":464.658,"text":"這個美國的一級的供應商裡面有這麼多的這個中國製的這個公司在裡面那今天我們主要的武器採購是對媒採購那採購完之後來到台灣因為我們自己有相關的規範那問題是我們對媒採購的合約條約裡面有沒有相關的規範過當然我們相關的發家書上面都有相關的綠定是禁止錄製品的採購的部分那如果來的話假設有是我們有我們有退貨的機制退貨機制吧好謝謝我們處長請回喔"},{"start":469.52,"end":497.498,"text":"主委 我要問的是說就是其實我們在整個公共工程委員會的採購的這個法裡面在你的機制裡面有沒有事前不管是你們也好或是各主管機關去做相關的這個查查或訪場的時候有沒有事前預防的機制如果有為什麼還會發生像前面提到的2025年光是2025年本身就有這麼多件相關的採購是用大陸製產品那未來要怎麼去避免這樣子的弊端"},{"start":499.907,"end":522.715,"text":"我們這次修法裡面要把這個企業範本把它剛性化就是說機關必須要遵循這個政府採購法裡面的相關規定或工程會訂定的企業範本來訂所以如果這樣子的話我們會把委員剛才所重視的在將來的各式的企業範本裡面來訂定是關於事前查核或者是相關大陸"},{"start":524.156,"end":537.132,"text":"這個中國相關的零件或相關產品的查核更加嚴謹這個我們會來研議好 四位那再來就是說這次修法裡面當然大家很關注的所謂三家廠商的這個資格問題那當然"},{"start":539.395,"end":561.822,"text":"所謂最有利標部分本席跟其他前面幾位委員的立場差不多最有利標當然有沒有三家我覺得一一差別不大但今天最大問題說這個低價搶標包含大家很在意的包含這個福邁這個東西這個RDX這個炸藥問題跟之前衛福部陶連部立醫院也發生過所謂低價搶標系統上的問題所以大家比較在意的是低價搶標"},{"start":563.743,"end":580.381,"text":"那這部分在新的規範裡面如果沒有三家的問題只有一家可以來低價搶標會不會又造成大家這個市場上的亂象產生因為我覺得今天講真的啦有時候那個低價搶標問題有時候是品質你沒有辦法達到那如果你"},{"start":581.676,"end":597.01,"text":"超比這個本來的底標低於底標的比例多少有沒有相關的機制去杜絕說他特別用低價比如說我用五成六成的價格來搶標我當然搶到啊但問題是他後面的品質怎麼維護等等的這部分在新的修法版本裡面你們要怎麼去預防這件事情"},{"start":597.65,"end":614.467,"text":"報告委員那個有關低價搶標這個事情目前在採購法上面已經有規定了就是說他假設低於底價八成那麼他就必須提出他為什麼可以確保品質如果說還不行還可以叫他提擔保"},{"start":614.887,"end":629.921,"text":"那這個規定目前我們又更把它強化了所以並不會這個他有沒有低價來搶標邏輯上面跟他有沒有三家是沒有必然關係因為他縱使是一家他也要受到不能低價來的這個限制這跟委員報告"},{"start":630.6,"end":644.959,"text":"最後點時間 因為這個照片站起來所以在實質上的成本控制因為今天我們政府機關定出所謂最低標你們一定有你們的市場價格你們仿商的結果定出一個最低標所以包含說你叫他提出說明"},{"start":645.72,"end":660.754,"text":"那我是覺得其實工程會應該更積極的應該有一個委員或一個審核機制去認定說到底這件工程它實質上它的成本本來就應該是多少至少業界價格應該多少而不是說我低價來七成那七成可以嗎"},{"start":662.774,"end":678.899,"text":"這個採購機關他事先會仿價按照他的這個市場行情會仿價所以他會訂定他的底價那往往這些大概都比較金額比較低的採用底價標那現在大部分金額高的大概都是有利標"},{"start":679.659,"end":694.335,"text":"好 沒關係 主委 因為我後期也會提一個提案啦 就針對成本實質審核的部分 應該希望共產會能夠幫忙啦 我就希望到時候共產會跟我們大院 大家都能夠支持去杜絕這種惡質的這種低價搶票的行為發生 好不好好 好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b585428aa0f7c208a0beeb09d831e7021174a653833dddfd2f127a1751fd121cdf95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:29:42 - 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請阮次長"},{"start":9.885,"end":33.73,"text":"市長早我想我們還是很關心有關財政部從之前提出的所謂的新型案貸款我上一次質詢的時候要求你們去清查所謂的高所得也就是每年將近兩百萬或到三四百萬以上的然後另外就是高年齡五十歲以上的貸款你們給我的報告是說你們清查完畢了"},{"start":35.43,"end":60.147,"text":"50歲以上的只有7000多戶佔5%然後高所得呢超過200萬年所得的有1萬多戶比例佔8.27%但事實上我們總金額已經達到14萬多件這樣的比例雖然算低但是次長以所謂的高所得來得到新青安貸款的利息補貼你們覺得合理嗎"},{"start":63.281,"end":89.194,"text":"跟委員報告這一部分我們現在也在積極跟相關的部會積極的檢討因為我們是要給年輕人他的所得比較弱勢的得到所謂政府的補貼看起來是目前是有雖然比例不高但是他還是存在是 了解如果接下去的新西安貸款在七月就要到期了請問財政部現在的立場是什麼"},{"start":90.039,"end":117.919,"text":"目前我們現在在徵詢各相關單位的意見所以還會在新清安2.0嗎這個因為他可能不叫新清安2.0但是他會有一個新的政策是嗎這個這一部分我跟委員報告因為左院長已經有講說不會照舊的一直對舊的有缺失就要改善未來要怎麼用什麼方式來呈現我們正在研議因為這兩年在新清安貸款裡面到"},{"start":118.699,"end":146.329,"text":"去年的年底竟然還是我們要求你們去清查之後發現有八千多件的違規案也就是他不是自己買自己租而是當人頭甚至還租給別人還去拿了利息補貼真的很離譜啊總共有八千多件八千多件比例來講也是不可小覷金額高達一億八千萬現在還在持續的清查嗎"},{"start":147.449,"end":172.584,"text":"對 我們現在進入第五波的清查沒錯 公營的行庫租出以前借了錢出去就不管了然後也不理了 只要收利息就好了現在的問題就是貸後的管理可能比借貸還要重要貸後的管理是要看它執行的狀況不能讓我們的年輕人淪為人頭尤其是很多人他是用新清安去套政府的利益"},{"start":172.904,"end":200.203,"text":"了解我希望可以繼續的清查然後每一個月可能都要給我們立委做一個回報這是第一點所以新清案的2.0在7月以後有可能會進行但是我們的中央銀行到現在為止還是不動產的第七波選擇性信用管制次長這兩個政策我從上任到現在就在講說這是相當矛盾的"},{"start":201.043,"end":221.269,"text":"一個是希望大家都去買房子一個是希望大家都不要買房子那是怎樣的我完全了解委員的意思所以我們這一次也召集相關的會議包括央行 包括金管會 包括內政部一起來聽取他們的意見政府不要自己打自己左手打右手800萬的房子因為新青安炒到1000萬那現在又"},{"start":223.129,"end":248.357,"text":"又所謂的第七波選擇性信用管制到現在把房市整個停在這邊我沒有說對或不對但是政府的政策顯然是自相矛盾如果我們又要鼓勵年輕人買房子又要選擇性信用管制讓人家在新青山那邊排隊該貸款的人貸不到不該貸款剛剛講的一大堆高所得的人貸得到這才是奇怪的這是一個很矛盾的現象而且跟央行的政策"},{"start":248.937,"end":278.537,"text":"也不一致啊是所以我們希望新青安未來新青安能夠真正幫到他應該健全房市是他應該讓房市恢復正常讓年輕人買得起房子而不是這邊在炒作房價那邊在做信用管制最後該需要的拿不到最後變成剛剛講的高年齡的高所得的他反而他本身就是一個所謂的經濟優勢的人弱勢的人得不到幫助政府的政策自相矛盾"},{"start":279.797,"end":303.902,"text":"這部分我們會參考委員的意見我們納入考量是 我覺得這個矛盾的政策不應該再發生就算你要再補助年輕人購屋那用另外一套方法而不是用這種方式去做利息補貼然後又在這邊所謂的打壓房價造成年輕人根本就買不到房子是 我們這一部分一定會就相關的一些條件會做通盤的檢討沒錯 這邊炒高了房價誰買得到 買得到才有鬼"},{"start":308.863,"end":320.807,"text":"我在最近發現連我們大台北地區當然是黃金地段可是在新北市我們看到一個21坪的房子室內只有13坪一坪賣99萬2000多萬只能住到13坪這是一個政府不應該讓它發生的事情好嗎尤其我們有這麼多的偵測工具"},{"start":330.615,"end":340.832,"text":"我們要讓年輕人住到十三坪的房子還要花兩千多萬去買這實在不太應該啦好嗎好 謝謝委員請就好請 那是現在我請一下主計長請陳主計長"},{"start":348.123,"end":361.996,"text":"委員好主席長我想總預算到現在為止沒有附委其實有很重要的一個原因就是所謂警消的退伏還有軍人的加薪對吧你們到現在還是不願意編列這部分的預算嗎"},{"start":363.035,"end":387.584,"text":"因為它實在影響很大影響很大所以你沒錢所以你不編所以你不編你都知道現在走運站卡就卡在這兩條它涉及到的一個就是整個公教人員性質結構的一個不均衡還有包括身分之間的一個不平衡因為嘉興不是這樣的家主席長我跟你說現在地方政府預算都已經編完了對不對他們可能都審完了是嗎"},{"start":389.366,"end":414.281,"text":"大部分 財化法的預算當時你也是依法編列然後他們也都依法編進去他們的預算裡的 對嗎對不對 有沒有 編完了你的預算也編了 他們的預算也編了他們的都通過了 然後我們這邊還不確定然後因為這樣子卡折你們不附屬 也不進行相關的程序主席長 這就是一個超級大僵局啊"},{"start":414.841,"end":439.15,"text":"重點是剛剛講的警消的加薪還有所謂的軍人加薪這部分其實爭議不會只有在總預算而是整個國家體制行政院的態度是什麼今天剛剛這個題目今天的主題是如果這個總預算沒過的話地方政府會碰到什麼困難現在他們預算已經編完了我想問你他們要怎麼辦"},{"start":441.375,"end":456.393,"text":"這個部分如果說將來將來我們提起事先所以他們不知道怎麼辦預算過了但不知道怎麼執行我們提起事先還是所有事情都要等憲法法庭我們就辦理做調整所以以後的主計處也不用做事就是等憲法法庭就對了是嗎"},{"start":456.994,"end":479.406,"text":"不是沒有做事而是說我們都把各項的一個都精算好然後就是等著一個所以到今天現在這個moment你還是不知道怎麼解決是不是地方政府也不知道怎麼解決而是說這個部分必須要等到才是的一個所以主席長你今天在這邊回答我就是說現在無解然後見完法庭檢視之前也無解是嗎"},{"start":480.134,"end":506.254,"text":"不是 我是覺得 我是建議就是也懇請懇請大院能夠把我們的預算然後新型的計劃本來就可以送相關的申請案到立法院來如果真的有急迫性但是它也是到年底之後的事現在根本不會影響到相關的作業我想請問現在的狀況地方政府預算編列完畢他們如何執行還是全部都要從你的角度全部都要追加減"},{"start":507.763,"end":520.849,"text":"不是 以我们来讲对于如果这个军人的加薪的这个部分呢视线的结果我们依照视线的结果来调整好 时间在你我请国防部的次长请徐副部长"},{"start":525.973,"end":552.093,"text":"副部長 我想剛剛聽到我們立法院幫軍人加薪所以 主計處有意見所以到現在沒有 已經停擺那這幾天我們看到委內瑞拉的局勢美國去收買了總統委內瑞拉總統身邊的人所以他們採取了斬首行動那我們軍方不用被收買我們的軍方我們的馬祖防衛指揮部直接被炸團侵入啊部長"},{"start":554.335,"end":571.935,"text":"副部長我們現在的軍方裡面詐團每個月三千到五千塊代價就可以買到官兵的人頭賬戶涉案的超過六十個人遭人頭賬戶的行為超過一年以上我們的部隊已經被詐團侵入了嗎"},{"start":573.547,"end":585.153,"text":"報告委員 這個我們已經去查處了一年以上欸 六十多個人欸 這只有馬祖嗎做了懲處 懲處了多少人 汰除了多少人報告這個具體的數字 我們還在處理當中 但是調查完畢了嗎"},{"start":593.939,"end":621.099,"text":"不知道還在進行今天我們要討論的就是如果我們的國軍不要說變成共諜啦三千塊五千塊人家花五千萬美金去買通啊我們這邊花三千塊五千塊就可以買到我們的國軍的官兵這實在是一件很可怕的事第二個這些相關的人他都說他在營內營外都有借貸行為在軍隊裡面我們對於官兵個人的"},{"start":622.06,"end":630.63,"text":"行為甚至他的生活狀況有所了解然後他的接待行為在軍營裡面長官都清楚嗎這些事情我們有在管理嗎"},{"start":631.451,"end":657.951,"text":"有 我們會有一些相關的行為在不侵犯到個人隱私的情況底下我們會跟官兵做相關的所以我剛剛講的我們立法院為什麼要幫軍人加薪因為有很多人他的薪資他的確是在相對現在物價高漲的情況下我們希望軍人受到一定的保障所以軍人加薪我希望國防部的立場是去爭取而不是抵抗 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謝謝部長最後我們請我們次長"},{"start":276.335,"end":290.784,"text":"剛才政經財委已經講到原住民的元額的問題我現在這邊只是要再特別強調就是說我們現在都在興建各個社區或者各個部落的集會所其實這樣子一個興建集會所大概原民會標準大概都在2700萬左右"},{"start":292.865,"end":315.109,"text":"那我是覺得很可惜就是說我們能不能因為這樣的一個契機呢能不能也把適時的將我們適合各年年齡層的一個所謂的運動中心規劃進去不然你光有一個集會所在那裡他可能只有用一個禮拜六就是結婚或者是辦活動可是平常時間是閒置的這樣就會覺得相對可惜"},{"start":315.689,"end":333.628,"text":"所以我覺得運動部可以跟原民會去探討未來這個適合各年齡層的運動中心這樣的一個出行或者是說想法讓我們原鄉或偏鄉地區看我們都會去每一個地區都有運動中心的時候真的是望美止渴"},{"start":334.454,"end":345.002,"text":"可以理解 我們會跟園民會一起來討論未來這個場所的功能先從功能的設計上面來處理才有辦法未來在活動上面把它納進來好 謝謝市長"}]}},{"id":"166794","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166794","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b587cc87882a38e40a92e37ed2c5933891a4a653833dddfd2f161f4198ff1cb05dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:24:08 - 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今年114年我們總共有提報五個缺不過只有分到三個只有貨分配三個所以我們就再把它提到115年的這個原住民特考"},{"start":239.091,"end":257.37,"text":"所以這個部分要今年,剛剛是去年,謝謝你們,114年有提報,也錄取了。那115年要繼續的提報,而且不只是運動部,包括你們的所屬機關能夠提報,"},{"start":261.041,"end":287.2,"text":"那當然程序知道就送到人事行政總處嘛這個來去整個會診而且而且要去協調地方政府地方他包含地方政府地方政府也可以所以這個部分也可以去協調地方政府的相關的機關也能夠提報而不是全部往這個"},{"start":289.298,"end":315.391,"text":"高補考那邊啊 對不對可以分開 延鄉 比較多延鄉的地方啊像屏東啊 台東 花蓮啊 比較多延鄉的地方他的縣市政府一樣可以提報協調他們去提報 可以嗎可以吧 協調可以吧因為教育部 他們的教育 基本上是教育部啦"},{"start":316.67,"end":331.654,"text":"我是說教育體系啦 運動體系啦 我講錯了運動體系 運動部的話在地方政府教育局有那個跟運動有關的嘛 好不好所以他不是原住民行政單位啊我們可以發文鼓勵他們來提報好 好 好 謝謝 謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"166806","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166806","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58292eb292e884e7cbeeb09d831e702117c8636dcd6d4218d981c04d3e6e31e3a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:13:47 - 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晚幾天吃會怎麼樣非要在軍演的當日去吃"},{"start":127.324,"end":154.344,"text":"所以你們老早就知道那個時候要軍演 你們還跑去吃到底是什麼決定 我看到海巡署還對媒體講說這個牽涉到餐飲業要事前準備哇賽 海巡署這麼貼心喔這麼站在餐飲業的角度喔 怕他們準備的食材浪費所以非要在軍演的時候去吃飯這是你們對媒體回答的態度耶人家入軍都可以取消餐會 為什麼你們不可以"},{"start":155.902,"end":184.278,"text":"跟委員報告那我們要確定要舉辦這個會議的根據是我們根據前一天所有的海域狀況的這個評估沒有你們事實上我也有看到管碧玲主委回答啦她說呢因為中共是宣布29號到30號軍演而已嘛你們是31號吃嘛哇賽這麼相信中共喔這麼相信她喔事實上是31號才結束啊"},{"start":186.24,"end":208.847,"text":"多了一天啊所以你們喊徐完全不當一回事啊然後管主委的說法跟她的老公她老公前兩天幫她出來講話說難道軍演不結束沒有宣布我們都不要吃飯了嗎管主委講的是說軍演兩天所以隔天的可以吃她老公是說那如果沒有宣布結束都不要吃了嗎我覺得"},{"start":210.051,"end":230.885,"text":"吃飯是一回事啦吃飯當然有很多檢討的地方在這個時間點吃飯你們事後對媒體回答那種無所謂的態度會讓人家看不下去跟委員報告我們沒有所謂的無所謂的你們的回答就是連牽涉到餐飲業要事前準備食材的你都講出來了哇"},{"start":231.977,"end":252.123,"text":"那我想請教一下你們總共吃了七萬多塊嘛剛剛聽其他委員問是吃了七萬多塊嘛是那七萬多塊都吃了什麼就一般餐廳的一般餐廳的什麼七萬總共五桌 它是桌餐總共多少人去吃是海巡署的四級機關人數多少"},{"start":254.488,"end":275.653,"text":"有五桌五桌人數總共多少嘛一桌是五個人十個人大概是五十個因為還有國海運跟海保署所以總共多少人嘛大概有四十幾位左右四十幾位左右四十幾位是四十位還是四十九位這個議題大家都在討論你們都沒有資料包委很抱歉因為沒有時間沒有準備到"},{"start":281.536,"end":309.834,"text":"所以是四十幾位四十幾位然後七萬多塊是就一般的桌菜是我覺得這個問題其實凸顯了海巡好像對這個軍演是非常不重視啦包括事後的回答都是一樣啦真的如果說抗中保台路線是民進黨主打的話海巡這樣的態度會讓國人非常的憂心啊這我非常擔心那我請那個國防部好不好"},{"start":312.357,"end":336.269,"text":"請徐副部長因為時間關係我就直接講了因為在年初的時候你們有發布一個紓困的貸款當時是說因為怕軍中士兵他們欠錢然後被人家用利誘方式變成共諜所以推出這個措施就希望解決共諜的問題或者是不要讓他們陷入詐騙集團的陷阱對吧"},{"start":336.969,"end":357.802,"text":"但現在這兩天推出之後 惡評如潮啦我很快講一下 再30秒就好很多人在反映啦 他說第一個你還要找保人嘛你保人還要找軍中同階以上的或者是公教人員不然的話就是要裁立證明他們講說這很難找保人誰要幫忙保這個"},{"start":358.976,"end":382.317,"text":"然後第二個就是如果是信用評分要在601分以下的申請貸款還要再打折我只是點出這個問題你們這個制度很可能會理想跟現實會產生很大的落差因為很多士兵你在網路上面講了如果按照你們這個條件去銀行貸就好了也不需要跟軍中申請紓困達不到你想要解決的問題"},{"start":384.948,"end":401.447,"text":"簡短回答報委員我是主席局局長我回應一下剛剛委員針對這個議題這個急難貸款沒錯我們設計的目標就是能夠幫助官兵解決一些急難的狀況剛所提到的保人這些問題我可能跟委員報告因為這個錢是公款公款我除了要給"},{"start":403.109,"end":418.156,"text":"官兵能夠解決他的問題同時我要確保公款的安全所以我必須在一定的額度以上的時候我要設計一個保人的制度確保我的款項帶出去的時候還是可以收回來但是我現在方便官兵我們設計了十萬塊以下他可以免保人的方式"},{"start":418.636,"end":438.462,"text":"對我知道我知道啦就是只是提醒一下你這個制度有可能理想跟現實有很大的落差啦當然我知道你是要保護公款這個我們不會希望公款拿不回來只是說你的目的如果是想要解決剛剛講的那些問題的話這個制度太嚴格可能做不達不到目標謝謝謝謝葉委員今日登記發言委員均與詢答完畢本次會議做如下決定一"}]}},{"id":"17169","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17169","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd1a34fb8cf4415d92d6a76734f7399182081761262ea6c52fdfe830b4fabb705c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員、交通部、國防部、法務部、司法院、勞動部及行政院主計總處就「公告修正《政府採購法》，以求精進政府採購效率、提高重大工程進度品質、堵絕惡質廠商投標可能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員黃捷等17人擬具「政府採購法增訂第十七條之一條文草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條、第九十四條及第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員賴士葆等20人、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人及(六)委員賴瑞隆等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十四條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「政府採購法第九十四條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員萬美玲等21人、(九)委員游顥等23人、(十)委員羅廷瑋等16人、(十一)委員林倩綺等24人、(十二)台灣民眾黨黨團、(十三)委員馬文君等16人、(十四)委員羅智強等17人、(十五)委員翁曉玲等17人及(十六)委員黃健豪等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員許智傑等17人擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條、第一百零二條及第一百零三條條文修正草案」案、(十八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等20人及(二十)委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「政府採購法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】\n【1月5日及8日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-05T08:31:03+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-05T13:19:00+08:00","duration":17277,"影片長度":"04:47:57","委員發言時間":"08:31:03 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交通委員會現在開會 初期委員以主法定人數現在開會 請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第四會計交通委員會第十三次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一四年十二月二十九日星期一上午九十至十二時十分 地點本院紅樓二零一會議室 初期委員李坤哲等十四人 列席委員鄭天才等五人"},{"start":1769.222,"end":1794.888,"text":"立席官員交通部部長陳士凱等主席李昭及委員崑哲報告司法院宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定邀請交通部部長及內政部次長進行專題報告並備諮詢討論四項一 審查發展大眾運輸條例修正草案二 繼續審查香港法修正草案本日會議由交通部部長陳士凱等報告後既有委員李崑哲等14人提出質詢軍警部長陳士凱"},{"start":1796.728,"end":1815.183,"text":"等級相關人員分別予以答覆決議一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員核心詢等是人體書面諮詢三 委員諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部及相關機關建築書面答覆四 討論四項一 個案均另定其繼續審查五 討論四項二 個案"},{"start":1817.81,"end":1818.951,"text":"好 現在介紹在場委員 王弘威委員"},{"start":1846.055,"end":1867.491,"text":"那我們今天介紹列席人員行政院公共工程委員會陳金德主委陳偉祥副主委羅天健主任秘書那另外包括企劃處技術處工工工程管理處法規委員會採購申訴審議委員會中央採購審議小組資訊推動小組處長參事以及專門委員一併感謝"},{"start":1875.851,"end":1895.149,"text":"交通部秘書處以及國防部國防採購室採購發包處還有法務部司法院民事廳以及勞動部勞動力發展署跨國勞動力管理組行政院主計總處內部審核研究小組數位發展部資通安全署"},{"start":1895.909,"end":1914.62,"text":"經濟部投資審議司 內政部移民署 移民事務組以及權序部還有國家安全局第三處 大陸委員會經濟處跟行政院國土安全辦公室我們所有出席的代表以及人員 我們一併感謝 自己先給自己一個掌聲謝謝好"},{"start":1920.54,"end":1946.55,"text":"本日會議進行公告修正政府採購法 以求精進政府採購效率 提高公共重大工程進度品質 堵絕二值廠商投標可能之專題報告及審查政府採購法等修正草案共二十案 以上法案僅進行詢答我們先請提案委員說明提案要旨首先請第一位王宏威委員"},{"start":1956.687,"end":1977.333,"text":"好 謝謝主席政府採購法現行的法規是針對拒絕往來廠商不得參加投標或作為決標對象或分包廠商最重是處分三年時間但是很多不肖廠商當他的處分時間到了之後他會繼續的投標"},{"start":1979.654,"end":2007.69,"text":"而因為當時的受處分都會影響它的一個品質事實上在前年我們警政署移民署和台灣銀行去採購防彈衣跟防彈頭盔等安全設備就出現了重大的瑕疵使得很多的基層員警非常的擔心自己的安全後來本席也踢爆"},{"start":2009.21,"end":2034.843,"text":"這個得標的廠商也就是我剛才講幾乎是全台僅用房貸背心有瑕疵的廠商他竟然有七次被列為採購黑名單可以知道這樣一個黑心廠商不管是原來的廠商或者他在利用另外去登記其他的廠商名字或者用他的兒子再繼續的去得標"},{"start":2035.763,"end":2059.535,"text":"然後整個去危及我們京城警察的安全所以這問題是很重大的另外我在前年4月也曾經踢爆我們中科院去採購非氮製造原物料的公司在被發現洗產地之後一樣的被桃園地檢署後來就被起訴了"},{"start":2063.337,"end":2085.3,"text":"但是非常離譜的事情這個廠商被中科院列為拒絕往來戶之後竟然可以繼續在國防部得標更離譜的是他已經被起訴然後國防部照樣招標照樣可以得標所以為了遏止不肖廠商"},{"start":2086.801,"end":2108.933,"text":"這樣的一個行徑 所以本席針對我們這次採購法就是提出103條的修正草案讓受停業處分的期間 任參加投標者對採購有關人員交付不正利益以及第二款破產程序中的廠商歧視性別 原住民身心障礙或弱勢團體人士等廠商"},{"start":2110.834,"end":2131.629,"text":"借用或冒用他人名義或證件投標違反採購法他只要犯三次以上就永久不得參加政府的採購這叫做什麼呢這叫做三證條款也就是說如果有一個廠商他已經有三次被政府的採購列為拒網的一個"},{"start":2134.231,"end":2158.951,"text":"資料那當然就不能夠讓他再繼續的來採購我們甚至去查詢過甚至有廠商被列為拒絕往來我好幾十次之多繼續來參加政府的這些採購案這個非常的離譜所以我在這一次的修法也希望能夠得到這個行政院我們工程委員會的支持也希望能夠得到我們交通委員會的支持以上謝謝"},{"start":2164.005,"end":2187.435,"text":"好 謝謝好 那連委員有要代表黨團提案說明嗎好那接下來請列席機關報告請行政院公共工程委員會陳金德主委報告"},{"start":2197.024,"end":2223.077,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 經得今天獸邀列席貴委員會 針對公告修正政府採購法 以求精進政府採購效力 提高重大工程進度品質 堵絕惡質廠商投標可能 提出專題報告警舊工程會本次延擬病於一百一十四年十一月十一日預告 知政府採購法部分條件修正草案"},{"start":2224.678,"end":2250.464,"text":"對應上開要求之修正重點說明如後 敬請指教一 及早公開採購資訊同時刪除第一次公開招標開標加速的限制工程會盤點WTO政府採購協定以及美英歐盟等先進國家的制度並無開標加速限制又查第一次開標要有三家廠商投標規定"},{"start":2251.804,"end":2277.561,"text":"是源於民國三十九年公布的各機關營產工程及購置 訂製 變賣 財務 稽查程序條例招標公告緊要 當時的招標公告是要求在機關的門口公告五日以上以及當地的報紙廣告三日以上資訊不完全公開透明民國八十七年政府採購法立法時予以原用"},{"start":2280.114,"end":2291.662,"text":"考量當時的資訊封閉 現在的資訊公開有多元管道可及時取得標案資訊所有公開招標案件均需公開在政府"},{"start":2292.844,"end":2293.064,"text":"二次"},{"start":2322.369,"end":2344.485,"text":"就是因為第一次沒有三家廠商投標機關要多招標一次那麼就會影響政府的採購效力工程會此次修法採行及早公開採購計畫並將以修法後擴大公開閱覽範圍及延長等標期等措施更可促進廠商之間的公平競爭"},{"start":2346.089,"end":2353.816,"text":"第二提高小額採購金額的上限門檻金額機關辦理小額採購可盡洽廠商採購免提供報價及企劃書但是現行的小額採購金額為新台幣15萬元以下"},{"start":2364.908,"end":2390.383,"text":"是受採購法第四七條第三項之小額採購不得欲公告金額十分之一的規定那為便利主管機關及地方政府因應物價變動及整體政策考量就小額採購之金額得以彈性調整原刪除前述第四七條第三項十分之一之限制以利機動調整小額採購金額提升機關採購效力"},{"start":2395.441,"end":2419.048,"text":"本次透過更積極建立公平合理的採購環境並保障廠商權利提升公共工程品質第一是政府採購企業範本的效力要剛性化那麼使其對機關具拘束力避免不公平條款衍生爭議以及影響廠商參與投票意願目前實務上部分機關並沒有採用"},{"start":2422.349,"end":2444.017,"text":"工程會訂定的企業範本自行訂定許多不公平條款衍生理業爭議也影響廠商投標意願為改善前述情形本次修正草案第63條將政府採購企業範本及效率剛性化使其對機關具拘束力以促進政府採購契約是公平合理性"},{"start":2445.592,"end":2471.869,"text":"第二是保障公平保障公共工程各級廠商的權益為減輕廠商帶電資金壓力 草案第七十三條之一增訂查核金額以上案件縮短估驗週期時間增加估驗的次數此外草案第六十七條增訂分包商的契約價金有優先售清廠的機制以維護分包商權益並立"},{"start":2473.63,"end":2479.207,"text":"公共工程順利進行次分包商一樣準用此規定"},{"start":2482.271,"end":2510.595,"text":"為杜絕二值廠商投標的可能修正重點一 停權效力擴及於相同代表人之其他廠商或新設廠商實務上被停權廠商可能與同一代表人之其他既有或新設廠商繼續參與政府採購架空停權制度 連增訂無論現有或新設相同代表人之廠商皆會受停權效力所及來強化防堵"},{"start":2511.721,"end":2538.046,"text":"第二 增訂不良廠商重複違規之停權期間合併計算現行停權制度同一廠商同時被刊登數次政府採購公報停權期間重疊無法達到原有管制目的修正草案增訂第103條之一定明同一機關對同一廠商數項違私行為累計計算執行刊登期間"},{"start":2540.515,"end":2569.418,"text":"此外 廠商已被另一機關停權中 後續機關執行停權應至該期間結束後 接續刊登以解決前述制度的缺點 結議工程會透過本次修法 其政府採購整體環境可以更公開透明 更有實質競爭效果 改善類幣驅逐良幣讓二值廠商停權隔離更久 使更好的"},{"start":2570.579,"end":2594.412,"text":"廠商進入政府採購市場提升採購及公共品質目前草案仍在預告徵求意見期間工程會後續將依法制作業程序報行政院審查後送大院審議 尚期各位委員先進予以支持 謝謝另外針對大院"},{"start":2596.391,"end":2624.71,"text":"黃婕等委員就政府採購法年紀條文修正草案計20案提出本會意見進行指教委員提案版本20案綜合歸納涉及徵修採購法條文計7條說明如下一防範入資廠商參與機制這是第17條之一本會意見現行法規已有防範機制建立維持現行條文"},{"start":2627.349,"end":2654.34,"text":"第二提高借牌出借牌照罪之刑責第87條本會意見加重刑責有嚇阻效果本會尊重第三增訂擔任採購評選評選會委員之限制條件第94條本會意見採購法規對於民意代表不能擔任專家學者委員已有規定且專家學者推薦機制已相當多元建議維持現行條文"},{"start":2656.161,"end":2670.997,"text":"第四 修正外籍勞工用詞為移工第98條本會意見本會研擬之政府採購法部分條文修正草案將第98條鎖定外籍移工用詞修正為外國人"},{"start":2671.778,"end":2691.491,"text":"建議是行政院修法版本提送大院審議後並同審議第五修正停權機制相關內容第101條至第103條本會意見本會研擬之政府採購法部分條件修正草案修正內容大致符合提案委員之版本修正意旨"},{"start":2692.111,"end":2715.553,"text":"又有停錢機制涉及整體運作機制建立市行政院修法版本提送大院審議後來並同審議本會研擬之政府採購法部分條件修正草案目前仍在預告徵求意見期間本會續將依法制作業程序報行政院審查後送大院審查屆時上期各位委員先進亦支持謝謝"},{"start":2731.175,"end":2753.072,"text":"好 現在開始詢答先宣告以下事項一 詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員5分鐘二 委員發言登記於10點30分截止三 各委員如有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診四 暫定10點30分休息10分鐘"},{"start":2768.188,"end":2791.494,"text":"好 我們現在好 特別補充報告 其餘機關所送書面報告 經列入紀錄刊登公報 特辭補充說明 接下來我們就請洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷召委執行"},{"start":2796.621,"end":2801.129,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請陳主委請工程會陳主委"},{"start":2806.236,"end":2831.084,"text":"委員長主委好 主委本次政府採購法歷來最大幅度的修法當然我們都希望說修法就是要看到問題來解決問題並且往前邁進加強行政效率那現在我們政府採購法的工程會的版本也在做公告期間到目前已經公告了將近快一個半月的時間了對那有沒有聽到什麼樣的一個回饋"},{"start":2832.591,"end":2854.067,"text":"外界很多人可能對於是說把三家首次公開招標達三家的投票加數的限制給拿掉這個部分是有疑慮的這部分有公開我們看到一些工協會有表達這個需要再考慮的意見是包括說工種理事長潘俊隆理事長就說這樣搞恐怕會有弊病"},{"start":2854.827,"end":2867.561,"text":"媒體也有報導而且講是說如果說一家廠商跟機關講好就可以開標決標長此下來可能會有後遺症如果說上市公司有上下其手的空間對採購的角度來講不太好"},{"start":2868.902,"end":2891.754,"text":"來 主委說明一下這個只要是時機已經不一樣我剛才提過採購法是沿用39年的相關條例來辦理那過去政府辦理政府採購公告在比方說縣政府門口然後公開在報紙然後這個廠商要去領標也要到現場投標也到現場容易衍生一些微標那現在已經是"},{"start":2893.836,"end":2910.212,"text":"這個整個資訊這麼公開這麼多元所以所有的採購都公告在政府的電子採購網上面大家都能夠搜尋得到然後領標各種方式的領標都可以有郵寄然後有電子領標已經高達99.6%了"},{"start":2912.734,"end":2938.176,"text":"那這一次修法又新增這個相關電子投標的這樣的規定所謂資訊公開跟以前是完全不一樣不會有重複以前那種會讓廠商來脅迫其他廠商來微標的情形所以我們認為三家三除一家那麼這個因為資訊已經公開了所以衍生微標這些弊端是幾乎不可能"},{"start":2938.536,"end":2958.827,"text":"你指的是像以前一樣就是說他可能用技術性杯葛讓那廠商沒有辦法到場他就在門口等看誰來領標同行都知道所以就是你把標單拿過來這個暴力脅迫違標是過去經常發生的事情好 但是主委本席也看到這個工總理事長他也提到他說他也不是完全的反對"},{"start":2959.687,"end":2978.974,"text":"對 他有提到是說工程會可以審慎考慮如果最有利標取消三家投票限制這可以接受因為最有利標這個是機關部分他已經有一些想法他可能希望是說有一些比較這個業績比較良好的這個廠商來去做這個相關投標但如果說是最低價標"},{"start":2980.174,"end":3007.909,"text":"也要取消這三家那會不會衍生一個情況就是說有廠商他就投標投標完之後他可能不符合市場上的一個行情那到時候他又用其他的方式來這點說明一下因為我們要的是要避免弊案的發生我們最有利標大部分都是標的比較大的案所以他有資格的廠商相對比較少所以呢而且這個整個案的形成包括"},{"start":3008.669,"end":3033.136,"text":"核定包括這個預算都資訊都已經很久大家都知道所以我們說取消三家這個影響並不大那至於這個低價標一般標的是比較小價金額比較少的符合資格的廠商很多是 也是民眾大家會擔心的我們雖然說刪除三家的限制一家就可以開標但是那麼多廠商針對一個標的所以一家"},{"start":3034.556,"end":3061.934,"text":"單獨去決標的那個機率就是比例也不會太高啦所以我們目的是希望說這個大家都能夠第一時間去參與然後比較有效率主委那我想請教過去到現在因為我們也看到有報導講不具名的官員說其實現行法規無法第一次開標就決標小型標案頂多晚半個月大型標案頂多晚一個月那也因此"},{"start":3062.774,"end":3080.342,"text":"我們手邊一定有這些相關資料因為本席剛剛有提到是說最低價標其實就會擔心說如果你把三家的這個廠商的資格給取消了會不會就有可能就變成是特定廠商就持續的得標到最後變成是其他廠商也覺得說我乾脆不用去投標反正我去也是陪榜"},{"start":3081.274,"end":3103.828,"text":"那我們過去有沒有你有相關的統計資料有多少廠商多少標案因為不是三家而造成第一次流標造成延宕這比例有多少我請蘇剛才回答來簡單說明我相信你們應該已經有統計了就是說第一次因為沒有三家而這個無法開標的這個比例大概佔公開招標的70%70%"},{"start":3106.389,"end":3116.395,"text":"假設一年大概有六萬件的話大概有四萬多件是因為第一次沒有三家來而沒辦法開標的那平均延宕多久平均延宕要看那個"},{"start":3120.353,"end":3146.895,"text":"平均是11天11天但是因為它是大大小小的案件有的大案有的小案平均下來那可能當然是對經了比較高的案件影響比較大那小案本來它本質上就是比較輕微嘛所以平均下來大概是有這樣的延宕是 但是主委我想本席的選區也有很多重大公共工程是流標好幾次但是其實流標的問題"},{"start":3148.596,"end":3168.127,"text":"後來去做通盤檢討並不在於是說他沒有三家來投標他不夠三家而是說他的到底這個工程因為我常講殺頭生意有人做賠錢生意沒人做可能這個工程就是廠商他們來看了之後認為是說開的價格跟這個工程要完成"},{"start":3168.767,"end":3195.384,"text":"的狀況其實是不合他的一個成本的所以他就不願意投標因為剛才的11天是平均那如果說金額幾百億千億以上的大案那個第一次流標以後會時間會比較長而且這個金額大有資格的廠商少往往政府機關採購機關就必須大幅的提高相關的預算那這個大幅提高相關預算如果因應"},{"start":3196.385,"end":3216.214,"text":"因應物價 因應相關的條件當然是也是必須的但是有時候是因為幾次沒有人投標那必須提高這個預算那麼這個也是導致重大公共工程延宕主委 因為現在都還在公告期間所以我們現在是意見的收納跟統整"},{"start":3216.934,"end":3245.623,"text":"本席也提出你剛這樣講的話本席也提出另外的想法就是說如果說幾千億幾百億的大案第一這個案本來就相對比較少第二這樣子的案才需要更一流的廠商而不是只是便宜形式說我為了說要湊足三家廠商我變兩家或一家只要一家人來他符合投標資格我就可以給他發包出去而是應該是找到一個真真正正過去有時機並且也願意來投標的優良廠商嘛"},{"start":3246.543,"end":3266.413,"text":"所以這個部分我想你也聽到因為這都是報導上面有提過很多的一個部分我們會更廣泛參考所以我現在才想是說在公告之前防弊是很重要的一個部分那心力就是說加速行政流程也是重要的部分但怎麼樣取得一個平衡點是不是全部都"},{"start":3267.358,"end":3293.807,"text":"解除三家的限制還是說最有利標解除最低價標不解除我覺得這都還是可以討論我們可以參與好那最後國防部最近的相關採購我想這個也要請教我們主管機關這個採購的主管機關甚至國防部長有難得動怒反向媒體說20年規定一樣只要能預約不用管說公司叫什麼名字登記在哪裡或說過去有沒有實務經驗"},{"start":3295.694,"end":3317.882,"text":"主委你對於這樣的講法能夠認同嗎這個是公司法的規定可能要請教經濟部了這個公司他登記什麼營業項目我們現在講是說我們叫賣這個相關買採購不管是買炸藥買軍火買什麼可是為什麼搖身一變2014年以前都不是做這些本業的我的意思是說那突然間賣馬桶的也可以來幫忙買軍火"},{"start":3318.882,"end":3334.706,"text":"我的意思是說關於這個公司法登記營業項目如果有需要精進那就請經濟部提出精進那站在政府採購主管機關的立場您剛剛也提到幾百億或是幾十億的這種案要不要有經驗我們要呼籲政府採購機關在採購合約的時候應該"},{"start":3340.307,"end":3363.492,"text":"更加強調那麼廠商所需要服務的專業我們也呼籲廠商在採購合約裡面賣馬桶的有沒有賣軍火的專業不是這個是涉及到賣茶葉的有沒有賣軍火的專業這個是涉及到公司的公司法裡面管理營業項目的登記這個目前不是工程會主管那麼經濟部他主管公司法他有他的規定"},{"start":3364.312,"end":3391.079,"text":"是啊 主委 但是您您是身為我們全中央主管機關的採購法的主管機關嘛那本席就想請教啊就是我們政府採購相關的一個條例裡面到底我們的專業認定在哪邊那如果說這樣的話因為為什麼本席特別點出這個問題國防預算從2016年馬政府時代最後一年編列3000億左右到現在一年我們的本預算成長到9000億"},{"start":3393.063,"end":3413.264,"text":"那人員的部分一回事那如果說除人員以外其他都是採購啊那因為其他都是採購所以說我們才要更重視專業啊所以我剛剛很認同主委剛剛的講法啊你一定要有相關的專業啊而不是像國防部長惱羞成怒講說為什麼要管他"},{"start":3413.957,"end":3429.025,"text":"為什麼要管他什麼名字什麼背景反正他能履約就好了啊能夠這樣做嗎包委員 站在政府採購的立場就剛主委講的要確保履約嘛那當然他必須具有專業所以他的政府採購的管控是分兩階段"},{"start":3430.106,"end":3457.833,"text":"一個是所謂的基本的規格基本的資料那這個機關他可以依據採購的個案去設定那麼現在會衍生這個問題是因為在公司法的管制上面他並沒有不會去針對特別譬如說貿易他不會去講說你是做什麼樣的貿易除非他有所謂的專案有些特許的行業不能理論上他不會就做這個區隔但是在政府採購法上面如果說他達到是一個特殊的"},{"start":3458.413,"end":3482.376,"text":"或者是巨額的採購的時候他還可以再要求其他的譬如說他禮約的時機等等的所以事實上並不是採購本身設計有問題而是個案在執行的時候應該符合這幾個標準去執行比較不會跟社會的認知落差是 所以說這就是本席強調的為什麼在這件事情上面會奇怪的地方第一"},{"start":3483.377,"end":3510.832,"text":"為什麼很多的公司都是2024年之後搖身一變他去做變更營業項目登記然後就有軍火相關的項目他就可以來得標那再來是過去都沒有投標的經驗突然間他要來投標跨行 隔行如隔山就沒有想到他可以直接插進來然後國防部就可以得標而且他就可以有履約那某種程度上大家就覺得是說這樣子履約行不行他採購機關是可以限定一些時機"},{"start":3512.685,"end":3540.563,"text":"是 那但是現在都沒有國防部現在都沒有設定國防部現在都沒有設定所以主委你講到重點啊你來行人啊所以你講到重點就是國防部現在都沒有設定任何的資格他就是完全open只要你能夠履約然後廠商就來投標就得標然後他過去也不看說他過去是賣馬桶的裝潢的賣茶葉的那買的是子彈耶買的是軍炸彈耶"},{"start":3541.707,"end":3569.984,"text":"那這些都是官兵弟兄地線要操作的那如果說有一個品質等相關不好的情況會不會造成官兵弟兄的危險還有剛才提到的它大部分都是貿易 國外進口它並不是自己生產所以採購機關採購機關它事實上可以訂立相關條件是 所以沒有訂立是不是就有瑕疵有時候我們採購法就希望公平公正但也不能夠有一些過當的不當禁止"},{"start":3570.984,"end":3599.084,"text":"主委所以本席真的在這邊我們可以在交通文化好好的討論不帶任何立場今天是國民黨執政如果說有這樣子離譜的標案我一樣提出嚴正的指責是因為本席要的是國家的預算花在刀口上並且要的是不是說國內可以生產成本的價錢還要去跟國外購買買三倍 四倍 五倍的東西很多東西都是"},{"start":3600.329,"end":3629.048,"text":"講白了我們要在這邊做的事情是防弊也要心力行政部門效率要提升可是不能再因為預算增加從3000億變9000億餅變大了結果反而特定人士上下攜手的空間變多了所以我們這次修法裡面把採購企業範本把它這個剛性化來請貴文大院能夠支持將來工程會就更有工具來拘束機關管理政府採購的企業所以本席在這一次的"},{"start":3630.208,"end":3657.48,"text":"這個禮拜的排案討論請詢答沒有逐條審查就是本席也要等行政院的版本也就工程會1月15號公告完畢之後送行政院有沒有信心下個會期可以送進來下個會期可以好下個會可以送進來那本席也會建議下個會期的召委我們送進來之後儘速排審跟我們所有委員的案件一起來能夠修正我們來修正能夠除弊的還是要除弊"},{"start":3658.907,"end":3680.302,"text":"可以嗎 謝謝我們的支持好 謝謝我們洪孟楷召委的執行好 謝謝那再來請第二位林國成委員執行"},{"start":3688.754,"end":3716.393,"text":"謝謝召委 請我們工程會陳主委陳副主委 陳副主委請委員長主委 副主委 早一向工程會在本席當立委之後我非常重視雖然人家號稱小單位但是我認為非常重要的職責"},{"start":3718.13,"end":3744.891,"text":"為什麼 全國公共工程所有的合約 所有的息資一定要公共工程委員會他來做一些前提的規劃那當然 我在想我要談的議題跟昭緯談的議題差不多第一個 國防部最近"},{"start":3746.623,"end":3771.873,"text":"標案爭議頻傳這裡面就是要注意請主委跟副主委要注意小蝦米吃大金魚人家不是要公平嗎但是我不管國防部國防部過去他們在做事情當然他是以實際為準但是20年是這樣20年以後"},{"start":3775.731,"end":3802.08,"text":"的廠商思想邏輯跟他做生意的方法完全不一樣所以變成投機起腳的人就會變成公司小金魚他還是會吃大金魚這個亂象就請諸委一定要去注意那我還特別要提就是當我們疫情最嚴重"},{"start":3803.22,"end":3830.87,"text":"我們的蛋最嚴重的時候我就感覺到很奇怪資本額50億可以飆到1億多這個就是說資本額不對稱為什麼要設計資本額資本額不大當然就不能飆到我一個限制的金額你不能50萬的金額他公司破產都無法去賠償這個我要建議我們工程會要有所規範"},{"start":3832.574,"end":3846.157,"text":"就像很簡單啊你剛才所講的所有公司的有些規範是經濟不管但是我的看法跟你相反只要跟工程會有關的"},{"start":3847.372,"end":3876.079,"text":"公共工程委員會當然要管啊亂象你當然要去就政啊你亂象雖然沒法但是公共工程委員會組織架構這麼嚴謹你很簡單啊你要發現亂象要替老百姓該修的就要修像國防部他只有更改進出口41天他就可以標到這個案"},{"start":3877.717,"end":3900.593,"text":"這個很亂象就會變成剛才昭緯所講開茶葉店資本額10萬他可以飆到幾千萬的工程在台南裝潢公司他又去把這個經濟部把所有的業務把它增加他竟然可以飆到6億的炸彈"},{"start":3902.711,"end":3919.947,"text":"這叫什麼 這叫做小蝦米吃大鯨魚這類所以我們的法律沒有規範啊 你沒有錯啊但是問題亂象已經出來 既然亂象出來公共工程委員會勢必想辦法去應對"},{"start":3921.408,"end":3941.511,"text":"那當然國防部有沒有錯國防部當然也沒有錯啊因為我立人來就是這樣可是你到底我們公共工程委員會不是指責你們的錯誤可是社會亂象出來的時候我們主管機關就要未以從謀想像如何還備不是嗎"},{"start":3942.392,"end":3952.874,"text":"主委在這個部分本席當然講這些沒有指責公共工程委員會但是我也不贊成你去推給經濟部如果是這樣的話"},{"start":3954.264,"end":3975.109,"text":"那我們存在的必要是什麼存在的必要就是跟公共工程有關的有關法令規範因為任何一個公家機關是依照我們的準則來的所以在這個部分既然有社會亂象是否針對這些問題來研究因為我們接下來又要修華"},{"start":3976.189,"end":3981.072,"text":"修法當然不足的地方盡快修啊我們行政院版發生這個問題就以表現在執政黨發現這種亂象你們自動自發去做防備動作"},{"start":3990.799,"end":3999.205,"text":"主委 本席提出這個看法你的看法如何好 謝謝委員的指教的確是如果說機關採購為了滿足或達到採購的品質我們希望機關在採購的評分上"},{"start":4008.652,"end":4037.77,"text":"或者是合約的要求上必須如果是專業採購那必須增加這個投標廠商的專業的時機另外他的履約能力如剛才委員所提的他的資本額很小但是這個標取的標案很大所以我們就比較考慮他有沒有這個履約能力或後續的保險的相關措施來作為決標的要件這個工程會來研究必要的時候那麼新增一些指引這個部分主委"},{"start":4038.63,"end":4064.742,"text":"因為我一向對於公共工程委員會陳主委跟陳副主委你們在領導之下的委員會我很少在指責你們我認為都是用鼓舞的方式建言的意識讓你們去把所謂這個亂象因為我說實在身為一個民意代表反對小蝦米去吃大金魚這一類叫做亂象"},{"start":4066.104,"end":4082.992,"text":"好 這是要亂象所以我要拜託主委針對這些部分真的要盡快未以籌謀 緩緩措施要把它因為我們政府機關本來發現問題就要趕快改進啊那這個亂象是真的這樣繼續下去對執政黨 對"},{"start":4086.974,"end":4107.819,"text":"工程會都沒有什麼幫助啊他只有害處啊那既然是這樣你們沒有包庇的嫌疑那為什麼不能去修華去你最起碼如果我跟主委建議啦公共工程委員會該有的作為你就行文給各單位我管你國防部"},{"start":4108.888,"end":4138.488,"text":"我管你什麼單位你以後針對這些敬請貴單位要遵守公共工程裡面的公平競爭以及不利於老百姓的東西那這個部分你要去行文要告知他們提醒他們最起碼你們有動作所以主委我是建議這樣修華如果來不及要行文把你們立場講得很清楚"},{"start":4139.028,"end":4150.503,"text":"也就是老百姓遺溺的東西請全國標案各單位執行單位要去注意這些細節我想 主委 你的看法呢"},{"start":4151.349,"end":4179.508,"text":"我們會遵照委員的指導來研議相關的含釋或相關的憲政的指引來喊醒各機關最起碼人家才知道陳金德主委跟陳滬主委你們有作為啊對不對至於要不要修華來約束那是另外一個層次嘛行政院竟然要提出版本這其實很好啊把它規劃下去我相信這個小蝦米吃大鯨魚這個問題"},{"start":4181.489,"end":4208.547,"text":"我坦白講也不是你們叫他做也不是國防部要去包庇他是存在的一個亂象所以我還是希望主委這個部分要特別最後最後因為有很多事情人家說這個什麼叫做有利標什麼叫做有利標看起來這個就是他有後台有能力去做這個標案但是站在你們的立場"},{"start":4210.19,"end":4219.426,"text":"站在你們立場當然是公平公正這是最重要也是你們的職責那我還是希望再度提醒我們主委"},{"start":4221.22,"end":4249.539,"text":"刪除三家的限制說實在的這些萬萬不可所以要重新考慮都聽聽協則專家他們的看法以及這不是找毛環這是基本的要素也就是投標廠商只有一家他就可以去標說實在主委以一般思考邏輯來講這個部分是不符合邏輯的"},{"start":4250.68,"end":4279.318,"text":"三家招標你說你第二次我們本來就有降下本來這個制度就有了第一次三家不能開標第二次的話他就沒有這個限制那為什麼要全部第一標就把它取消掉這個真的建議主委跟副主委要稍微要研究一下這個路子後門一開那投標案子會更混亂這一點我特別"},{"start":4279.878,"end":4303.473,"text":"提醒我們陳主委跟陳副主委一下好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝好 我們現在先確定議事錄請教議事錄有沒有意見各位委員對上次會議議事錄有沒有意見沒有好 謝謝 議事錄確定接下來再請第三位蔡其昌委員質詢"},{"start":4317.352,"end":4341.647,"text":"主委我想前面兩位委員的質詢雖然他們兩個跟我都不同黨不過我覺得有一些建議特別是他們理性提出的建議我覺得"},{"start":4342.728,"end":4364.151,"text":"應該公共工程會要適度的聽聽並且做一些研議的工作為什麼我這樣講呢其實我們要先讓社會大眾並不能夠因為在朝野或者說台灣政治社會對立的情況底下很多事情都被混淆也就是說"},{"start":4365.438,"end":4394.308,"text":"我相信剛剛包括前面委員去提到這些所謂社會爭議的這些標案我們要先確定他有沒有違採購法如果行政部門認為OK在招標的程序都沒有違法甚至有一些案子提起訴訟法院也認為沒有違法這是一個在法律程式上我們面對社會爭議的案子大家就依法行政但是"},{"start":4395.013,"end":4422.812,"text":"主委也要有一個同樣有一個觀點就是社會一般大眾的認知是什麼譬如說資本額太低飆很大的案子那這時候我們會告訴他他能不能夠履約啊可是主委你也知道有些台灣很多企業他很喜歡把資本額做小然後獲利能力變得很大他EPS可能1000元因為他資本額太小了"},{"start":4424.226,"end":4446.697,"text":"可是對一般社會大眾的認知這個程式而言這個那麼小的公司去吃那麼大飆那麼大的金額大家先天就會認為懷疑會覺得怪怪的會覺得這個沒有問題嗎所以這個會挑戰一般社會的認知就像我們要把三家"},{"start":4448.818,"end":4460.843,"text":"過去我們叫做要最少要三間來標啦我們現在把那個三家廢除一家我想剛剛我好像在路上有聽到那個數我們有公布一個數據嘛就是"},{"start":4462.942,"end":4485.952,"text":"流標的因為只有因為標不到三家而沒辦法決標的案子有多少件第一次決標流標的是不足三家是三百七十以上對對所以在我們透過科學數字的管理我覺得這個比例很高嘛所以效率就會下降這個就不是常態對對對所以呢但是社會為什麼我剛剛講說"},{"start":4489.402,"end":4504.182,"text":"數字的論述這個沒有問題我都尊重因為公共懲惡會要提出這個修法也一定有一個科學的根據有一個在實務面操作裡面的需求甚至公共懲惡會認為下錯藥了就是我們要防弊"},{"start":4505.043,"end":4526.13,"text":"房幣的邏輯不應該三家或許這個都你們曾經在內部開會討論過等等的問題但一樣的道理他又要挑戰一次社會的認知社會認知會認為以前三間在飆其實社會也不一定知道說很多三間在飆其實都是很認真飆的那一家去找兩家不大想飆的一定要三間不然你們兩個來倒飆"},{"start":4527.725,"end":4552.905,"text":"他們沒有 不一定有作弊喔他們不一定有作弊但他可能因為他就沒有人想做但是就老是他一個人想做然後他一直流標所以呢他就去找兩個朋友說你兩個來標他也沒有 兩個也沒有串通也沒有做什麼這個案盤的交易但他為了要趕快把這事情標到 把它執行所以就會有這個現象的產生所以我們也覺得所以機關買機票要三家以上"},{"start":4553.836,"end":4582.444,"text":"對 所以這個就是我們過去在他買一張機票要三家以上所以沒有三家以上被起訴沒錯所以這裡面有很多的問題所以你們才會提這個修法但我的意思是說有時候這些修法都要跟社會認知要做一定程度的說明跟解釋也就是大家想像裡面不合理大家想像裡面超乎他個人的主觀認知那這時候我們可能就要一點社會說服跟溝通的過程"},{"start":4583.243,"end":4599.296,"text":"否則我們要挑戰的是社會的認知這個叫約定俗成這個叫它刻板印象這個叫它既定的邏輯要挑戰這個主委這要有一些論述也可能要有一些時間不然我們會面臨很大的挑戰"},{"start":4600.407,"end":4615.229,"text":"就是說大家認為說這怎麼合理 這樣合得來可是我們其實在觀光層我會大家專家學者你們去討論然後實務面去看很多不合理一定要規定三家其實它是產生很多的問題不合理所以"},{"start":4616.147,"end":4641.549,"text":"挑戰大家都希望連能政府要清連又要有能力就是有效率啦大家都希望建立一個連能政府但連跟能之間常常會相互抵銷啦會相互抵銷那怎麼樣不讓兩者相互抵銷兩者可以相輔相成然後更連更能我認為這個跟很多時候都會跟社會的既定印象"},{"start":4642.659,"end":4649.377,"text":"不一定是對的既定印象但它就是社會的一個既定印象它會產生干戈或衝突所以我剛剛"},{"start":4650.936,"end":4679.346,"text":"的想法裡面我一直想跟主委討論這個問題就是說你們要做這些事情本席不會說反對啦但是呢我認為那個社會說服溝通怎麼樣提出數據來告訴工程委員會沒有在新的修法裡面我們沒有任何的想要讓建立這個聯能政府有下降甚至我可以讓他提升我覺得這個這個可能在要有一點說服的過程或者怎麼說明"},{"start":4680.829,"end":4695.347,"text":"這個已經是三家以上這是七十年前的事情 一甲子的那七十年前跟現在的通訊環境完全不一樣完全不同不同的通訊環境然後以前公告在縣府門口"},{"start":4696.708,"end":4721.631,"text":"公司本人要去領標 外面就圍起來了投標也是 你本人要去投標外面就擋著你不讓你去投標那現在電子領標 電子投標所有的公告都在電子採購網那我們還有其他配套措施機關預算通過的時候適當時機他就必須公告這個採購預算採購的相關計畫所以等標期也拉長"},{"start":4722.572,"end":4729.629,"text":"所以我們雖然說改成一家就可以開票那反而比例反而會促成更多人去投票"},{"start":4730.589,"end":4737.294,"text":"反而會刺激更多人去投標會減少一家投標的這個情形這是我的判斷"},{"start":4760.709,"end":4786.903,"text":"但我就要講就是說他是我們挑戰的不是我跟你講的不是你現在講這些東西的對錯而是一般民眾對於你剛剛所講到為什麼當時要三加來標他有一個歷史的因素那這個歷史因素會導致當時雖然這樣做當時是這樣做可是他後遺症很多那現在的環境又走到哪裡根本不需要這樣做所以以前我們治療肚子痛"},{"start":4788.856,"end":4816.331,"text":"當時的肚子痛的用藥雖然它很多副作用但是當時它是最有效的方法現在科技藥已經走到這裡了我們治療肚子痛根本就不需要這個我們有新的藥這新的藥吃下去不但肚子痛更快好而且還沒有後遺症我的意思就是說你要去說服不大家都習慣了對不對 我阿嬤我肚子痛她老是拿那一個她說阿嬤不用用這個現在還有更厲害的"},{"start":4817.578,"end":4836.291,"text":"主委你懂我在講什麼巴勒葉 巴辣對 以前那個配方那個秘方很多所以這就是我說的社會認知以前那很有效但是社會不知道觀光工程委員會你們經過了什麼時間的演變什麼很多的方法所以今天已經要希望走到這裡來"},{"start":4837.412,"end":4856.629,"text":"所以我認為這個很重要第二個我們這個採購法裡面我有一個像96條我們這一次修法裡面我看到我們還是沒有去修說我們這裡面96條寫說機關於招標文件中規定優先採購取得政府認可之環境保護標章使用許可"},{"start":4857.711,"end":4869.718,"text":"但我看現在環境部基本上在這個資源循環推動法裡面他已經規定他已經不再去談環境標章的這個產品他是直接跟你講說"},{"start":4872.777,"end":4888.212,"text":"這個依22條核准之循環產品或循環服務或其他綠色意涵之產品或服務換言之在環境部的資源循環推動法裡面它其實更廣泛的在說明"},{"start":4889.344,"end":4917.035,"text":"這個所謂的綠色採購但我們好像還只限於環境標章主委 這個應該要好 這個我們會遵照委員的意見來做修正應該納進 現在新的資源循環推動法也行政院還正在審議啦對對對所以應該不要 他修好了結果我們的公共整合採購法又用舊的邏輯跟概念在講好 這部分我們遵照委員的意見來修正好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":4920.511,"end":4939.447,"text":"好 謝謝接下來再請陳樹越委員質詢謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳主委陳金樂主委請委員長"},{"start":4946.716,"end":4964.658,"text":"主委早那今天就是我們會針對就是政府採購法的修法進行詢問我們也看到就是目前工程會預告要進行這個政府採購法的修法可以說是歷年來幅度最大的一次那相關的條文"},{"start":4965.619,"end":4970.141,"text":"有52條那主要的重點大概就是四個方向就是要強化這個採購資訊及早公開然後刪除三家合格廠商投標使得開標"},{"start":4977.489,"end":5002.503,"text":"第二個就是簡化最有利標的作業第三就是強化政府採購契約範本的拘束力第四個就是針對停權制度增訂廠商的免責條款剛剛有幾位委員都有針對修法的部分提出了一些意見即使本席針對這一次的修法當然也是有一些疑慮就是說包括刪除三家合格廠商投標"},{"start":5003.323,"end":5024.32,"text":"使得開標這樣子的規定過去我們會有這樣子的規定當然就是說要防止違標提升採購效率跟公平性我們在修法之後我們目前工程會是希望提高發包的效率來做這樣子的修訂"},{"start":5025.16,"end":5051.465,"text":"那這樣子的話如果說之後是不是投標的工程就是發包的工程只要有一家投標就可以讓他得標嗎就是因為目前相關資訊的取得領標投標都已經電子化或即將電子化所以廠商對於這個投標的相關資訊都很充分那我們也會"},{"start":5052.825,"end":5081.104,"text":"這個要求機關寄找公告這個相關的計畫跟預算等標期也會比較長等等所以我們認為要改善目前第一次決定第一次開標流標的比例很高就是未達三家的比例很高所以我們希望改正這樣的採購效率所以呢我們也徵詢很多意見贊成的也有啦反對的也有那我們也聽取各界意見當中希望把這個"},{"start":5082.325,"end":5096.57,"text":"三家以上開的規定來做個修正因為我們看整個採購協定歐盟國家幾乎沒有這個三家的規定所以我們在這次的採購法的修正這個是主要的修正的重點"},{"start":5098.345,"end":5114.774,"text":"當然就是說工程會針對這個發報的數據來做一個就是判斷認為說在開標流標的比例未達三家然後流標比例非常的高所以你們要取消這個三家"},{"start":5115.314,"end":5140.483,"text":"投標的這樣子的一個限制那其實流標應該也有其他的因素存在比如說是不是這個利潤太低或者是工程技術性太高難度太高導致的流標所以未必說跟這個三家合格廠商為什麼會為打三家去投標可能會有其他因素我們是不是也要去"},{"start":5141.423,"end":5168.426,"text":"衡量考量我再補充一下剛講的說取消三家並不表示說只要一家來就一定要給他因為他還是有基本資格或是他的旅業能力的限制那在我們的這個決標方法上面還有一種就是合格以後他才能進入到最低標所以不會說因為取消三家只要任何一家來都一定得標不是這個意思"},{"start":5169.307,"end":5186.187,"text":"第二個就是說這一次修改這個取消三家除了效率以外其實因為在實務上看到非常多的這些廠商就是剛文有提到他事實上是為了符合三家來的那他可能因此會處罰"},{"start":5187.769,"end":5201.88,"text":"他可能會被刑罰處罰會被停權那時候我們實務上看到非常多的案例甚至是機關請他去找三家來的所以他們會在這些案子裡面不斷的申冤"},{"start":5202.64,"end":5224.037,"text":"另外一個就是說現在的這個所謂要三家才能開標的話等於是說因為我是這個如果是我正常的廠商我沒有辦法擔保會不會有三家可是如果沒有三家來變成是我負擔流標的責任等於是處罰這個合格的廠商所以有這樣綜合的一個考量所以不是單一的目標啦"},{"start":5224.477,"end":5252.343,"text":"是 那剛剛副主委有提到就是說會有一些履約能力相關的一個考量那這個應該跟我們在第三個強化政府採購契約範本的拘束率裡面這邊會有一些的條件的一個列就是把它列出來 列舉那這個部分的話會不會造成說另外一種維標 綁標因為就是說我們如果在採購範本裡面"},{"start":5254.224,"end":5267.923,"text":"去針對這個工程的一個條件給它提高就是加鹽這個條件的話是不是就等於會在確保就是特定某家廠商才能有那個條件來投標"},{"start":5268.991,"end":5295.711,"text":"我們所謂把企業範本剛性化就是說我們目前的狀況各機關參考工程會所訂定的企業範本是原則所以很多機關它制定很多機關包括新政院底下很多機關它制定他們的採購企業範本有時候這個企業範本是有利於甲方的它對投票廠商的權利有時候會並不那麼的考慮到"},{"start":5296.631,"end":5321.685,"text":"所以我們希望基於站在雙方和平等的這個角色來把這個企業範本來個比較完善希望機關來遵循而不是說有些機關他長年一年幾千億的預算所以當然企業範本就是他們自己的企業範本就訂的比較條件很苛所以長期下來就這個對工程品質也不好所以我們希望來改這個企業範本"},{"start":5322.795,"end":5351.075,"text":"我想就是說剛剛我們蔡議員提出的建議我覺得這個真的是我們工程會要好好的去思考就是說我們如果刪除了三家的限制之後我們之後是不是還能夠兼顧這個房幣然後要如何兼顧對於公共工程的工程品質是否會造成影響這個是我們需要好好的去思考的就是說我們要怎樣真的又要就是連結又要效能"},{"start":5352.276,"end":5360.654,"text":"有達到這樣子兼顧的一個結果這部分我們工程會應該要好好的去思考那這部分是不是可以請主委再說明一下"},{"start":5361.718,"end":5387.919,"text":"我們目前這個比較大的案當然是符合資格的家屬比較少就都有利標那比方說小兒採個15萬以上的15萬以上說多不多縮小不小但是很多機關辦理15萬年以上的公開招標仍然是要三家以上所以有時候要湊足三家剛才副主委講的往往很容易觸發"},{"start":5389,"end":5416.953,"text":"這很多公務機關一直有反應這件事情所以它的金額不一樣開標方式絕標方式不一樣我們都必須來考量謝謝委員的指教那我們另外一方面我們的修法重點就是說針對違規廠商停權規定這個部分我們就是有廠商的免責條款就是說要避免一人犯錯全體受罰這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":5418.033,"end":5446.64,"text":"可是这样子的状况就是说我们目前修订的部分就是有增订说一定有合理监督管理机制并落实执行的这个部分我们就是会有免责的这样的状况可是这部分也会让人家产生一个疑虑就是说一定有合理监督管理机制那这个要由谁来认定就是说是业务机关的承办员或者是主管就可以来做"},{"start":5447.838,"end":5462.631,"text":"一個認定還是說會在另外成立一個審查委員會來做一個認定報委那個我們的將來停權的機制上面你要做成停權的一個認定必須組成一個停權審查委員會"},{"start":5464.372,"end":5481.171,"text":"第二個就是說這些免責事實上本來就已經存在於個別的法律譬如說民法裡面它有對於僱傭人的免責條款那麼行政法裡面有對於僱傭人的免責條款但是相對於那兩部法律的免責條款因為它非常空幻"},{"start":5481.812,"end":5506.149,"text":"在食物上運用的機率很少所以我們在取食物跟現實的狀況底下那麼才會取一個中間值就是說你要有一個實際的監督的機制而且你要真的去執行而且你不能因此得到利益那將來會有這個聽檢委員會以及將來處理申訴的機關甚至由法院會形成一個比較系統性的見解"},{"start":5506.889,"end":5526.92,"text":"是 好 那目前我們就是還在公告期間還在收集意見那我們也希望就是說我們工程會就是要廣泛的收集各方的意見包括業務單位的或者是廠商的或者是一些專家學者的意見希望就是說在這一個修訂的草案能夠更符合實際的一個需求謝謝好 謝謝接下來再請黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":5543.66,"end":5544.823,"text":"好謝謝張偉那我們一樣請工程會陳主委陳主委請"},{"start":5553.417,"end":5577.096,"text":"委員長主委早主委我想一開始我們先來釐清幾個一個問題就現在我們政府採購裡面當然很多時候都會要求禁用所謂大陸製或中國製的這個產品那我想問一下主委到底我們在政府採購裡面現在禁用就禁止使用這個相關產品是針對特定的產業特定的這個零件規範還是說全面性的我們要去禁止這樣子的中國製產品的出現"},{"start":5578.777,"end":5605.516,"text":"禁止的部分当然是机关衡量他采购的项目如果他有资安的问题或者是本来有限制的项目这个采购机关可以自己来依照法律来决定那现行的状况因为在目前的供应链里面到底我们的公共工程上有没有办法实际上第一个问题说能不能实际上真的做到说完全的去避免"},{"start":5606.457,"end":5616.492,"text":"使用到中國製產品這是第一個問題那第二個問題是還是要回到我們工程會回到我們這個主管機關這邊我們有沒有能力去查核這件事情 主委"},{"start":5619.227,"end":5641.505,"text":"公共工程目前對這個所謂的錄製的產品或零件的管制原則第一個就是說如果涉及到治安或者是國安譬如說這個關鍵的基礎設施那這裡面可能要如果有問題的話要斷絕這個所謂的紅色的供應密碼"},{"start":5642.506,"end":5671.272,"text":"那在個案裡面因為確實像委員講的因為這整個國際的貿易形態的關係可能沒有辦法百分之百的禁止所以目前是由機關那麼看標案本身的性質以及它的採購的目的如果說真的是沒有辦法它必須使用但是沒有國安考量的話也沒有其他產業上面對本國造成不公平的狀況底下原則上機關是可以例外去採用"},{"start":5671.872,"end":5701.712,"text":"好就我目前了解掌握到當然現在我們在做這個事情投票前是由透過經濟部的相關平台就是主管機關去查說他當年當然他的投資的這個書面有沒有問題嗎這第一個比較簡單的部分那第二部分當然看說產品本身驗收的時候這個產品本身他沒有符合相關的這個產力的規範但是我們從實務上看到過去幾件當然這個跟他大部分都跟國家安全比較有關係的幾個單位包含中科院陸軍司令部各單位還有桃園捷運等等的"},{"start":5702.152,"end":5727.53,"text":"它的理論上 包含說我們看到一個這個所謂的監視器主機的主機板它是在台檢疫組裝之後然後貼上面等於台灣台灣製造的標籤或相關的很多的相關的採購都有這個問題所以我才問說到底我們訂了這樣子的規範那我們政府有沒有能力去在事前去查那如果事後被人家檢舉才發現的話那中間的空窗起的這個責任由誰來承擔"},{"start":5729.645,"end":5756.317,"text":"採購機關或他的上級機關他當然不一定要等驗收他隨時到工地都可以去查核那作為主管機關的工程會當然也有集合小組所以是盡力可以隨時都可以查核那我們碰到一些個案有時候是驗收的時候才發現有時候是當初沒有得標的廠商檢舉的所以這一類的情形算是情節算嚴重那機關當然可以提報停權"},{"start":5758.02,"end":5781.358,"text":"來依照101的條文來提報停權這一列還是陸續有發生沒有錯我知道我剛剛其實主委沒錯就是說會停權會有相關的懲處但是我想問的是說因為這次已經發生了比如說我們列出這幾個案子它已經發生了那發生後你們繼續停權那停權到新的廠商投票之前的這段時間的空窗期或這個部分的這個補救措施我們現在有機制做這個東西嗎"},{"start":5783.527,"end":5804.308,"text":"就這個階段這個時間你控訴的時間可以按照他的合約來做停權或者廢標的一些程序或請副主委來講說那個就是有關這個怎麼去發現當然在採購法跟採購合約上面那麼機關他可以要求廠商提出證明譬如說你進口那你要提"},{"start":5804.929,"end":5819.21,"text":"你的來源證明給我看嘛那我們現在跟這個海關總署那邊有建立連結將來可以直接由廠商指定把這個進口報單報給機關他就可以查核"},{"start":5820.191,"end":5848.045,"text":"比較難查的是貼牌那貼牌就要靠查核檢驗或者是有內部檢舉那如果說他被發現有這樣的一個情況機關他會進行停權的程序在停權過程因為不確定是不是有過程停權可是就他這個機關本身他如果核有規定他可以禁止他來參與他本身這個機關的其他的標案但是就很難禁止他去參與其他機關的標案"},{"start":5849.105,"end":5862.914,"text":"因為這個停權不確定如果說立即把它禁止的話也有可能最後發現是烏龍所以這兩者之間變成是有一個取捨了好 副主委我們先請你們等一下我們請國防部採購司採購發報處處長好了"},{"start":5877.851,"end":5896.113,"text":"處長早因為剛好這幾個案子跟國防部都是比較有相關然後想請教一下就目前來說因為國軍採購是禁用所謂大陸地區香港澳門產品認定及履約驗收的作業這部分那這部分的話你們因為房廠或因為茶廠然後在事前能夠發現的這個比例有多少大概有嗎"},{"start":5897.475,"end":5912.891,"text":"有發現過嗎事前如果去紡廠因為你們有這個紡廠的相關規定在工程企業裡面可能有相關的規定那因為事前去紡廠然後發現他的這個產品不合規的比例有嗎多多少少有發現過但是這個比例沒有來統計過"},{"start":5916.334,"end":5937.129,"text":"好那在你看到就其實因為我覺得第一個是我們現在已經有這樣發生已經已經有這麼多案件了那在一個比較核心問題是我們現在對美採購的武器也非常多那今年去年去年年中的時候有一個美國的這個數據分析公司他公布的最新的國安評論報告裡面光是五角大廈他的"},{"start":5938.17,"end":5956.524,"text":"這個一級的供應商裡面它有大概百分之十百分之九點三的這個產業是跟這個中國有關係是中國直接投資等等的那我想問說我們我國現在國防在採購裡面對於美國軍售部分我們有沒有辦法去禁止使用大陸的廠牌中國製造的廠牌跟產品我們有相關的條約嗎還是沒有"},{"start":5959.326,"end":5977.491,"text":"還是對媒採購它只要美國願意送來它只要願意賣給我們我們只要買得到都可以它裡面的這些零組件有沒有使用到中國廠牌因為為什麼今天特別在這邊提出來這個問題因為這個問題其實包括美國國會自己也非常關心說他們也是透過這一次的報告才發現原來他們自己"},{"start":5978.431,"end":6006.538,"text":"這個美國的一級的供應商裡面有這麼多的這個中國製的這個公司在裡面那今天我們主要的武器採購是對媒採購那採購完之後來到台灣因為我們自己有相關的規範那問題是我們對媒採購的合約條約裡面有沒有相關的規範過當然我們相關的發家書上面都有相關的綠定是禁止錄製品的採購的部分那如果來的話假設有是我們有我們有退貨的機制退貨機制吧好 謝謝我們處長請回"},{"start":6011.502,"end":6039.457,"text":"主委我要問的是說就是其實我們在整個公共工程委員會的採購的這個法裡面在你的機制裡面有沒有事前不管是你們也好或是各主管機關去做相關的這個查查或訪場的時候有沒有事前預防的機制如果有為什麼還會發生像前面提到的2025年光是2025年本身就有這麼多件相關的採購是用大陸製產品那未來要怎麼去避免這樣子的弊端"},{"start":6041.869,"end":6064.694,"text":"我們這次修法裡面要把這個企業範本把它剛性化就是說機關必須要遵循這個政府採購法裡面的相關規定或工程會訂定的企業範本來訂所以如果這樣子的話我們會把委員剛才所重視的在將來的各式的企業範本裡面來訂定是關於事前查核或者是相關大陸"},{"start":6066.135,"end":6079.091,"text":"這個中國相關的零件或相關產品的查核更加嚴謹這個我們會來研議好 四位那再來就是說這次修法裡面當然大家很關注的所謂三家廠商的這個資格問題那當然"},{"start":6081.374,"end":6103.805,"text":"所謂最有利標部分本席跟其他前面幾位委員的立場差不多最有利標當然有沒有三家我覺得一一差別不大但今天最大問題說這個低價搶標包含大家很在意的包含這個福邁這個東西這個RDX這個炸藥問題跟之前衛福部陶連部立醫院也發生過所謂低價搶標系統上的問題所以大家比較在意的是低價搶標"},{"start":6105.706,"end":6122.346,"text":"那這部分在新的規範裡面如果沒有三家的問題只有一家可以來低價搶標會不會又造成大家這個市場上的亂象產生因為我覺得今天講真的啦有時候那個低價搶標問題有時候是品質你沒有辦法達到那如果你"},{"start":6123.638,"end":6138.969,"text":"超比這個本來的底標低於底標的比例多少有沒有相關的機制去杜絕說他特別用低價比如說我用五成六成的價格來搶標我當然搶到啊但問題是他後面的品質怎麼維護等等的這部分在新的修法版本裡面你們要怎麼去預防這件事情"},{"start":6139.629,"end":6156.426,"text":"報告委員那個有關低價搶標這個事情目前在採購法上面已經有規定了就是說他假設低於底價八成那麼他就必須提出他為什麼可以確保品質如果說還不行還可以叫他提擔保"},{"start":6156.866,"end":6171.882,"text":"那這個規定目前我們又更把它強化了所以並不會這個他有沒有低價來搶標邏輯上面跟他有沒有三家是沒有必然關係因為他縱使是一家他也要受到不能低價來的這個限制這跟委員報告"},{"start":6172.56,"end":6186.941,"text":"最後一點時間因為這個照額站起來了所以在實質上的成本控制就是說因為今天我們政府機關訂出所謂最低標你們一定有你們的市場價格你們仿商的結果訂出一個最低標所以包含說你叫他提出說明"},{"start":6187.702,"end":6202.717,"text":"那我是覺得其實工程會應該更積極的應該有一個委員或一個審核機制去認定說到底這件工程它實質上它的成本本來就應該是多少至少業界價格應該是多少而不是說我低價來七成那七成可以嗎"},{"start":6204.759,"end":6220.88,"text":"這個採購機關他事先會仿價按照他的這個市場行情會仿價所以他會訂定他的底價那往往這些大概都比較金額比較低的才用底價標那現在大部分金額高的大概都是有利標"},{"start":6221.621,"end":6245.474,"text":"好 沒關係 主委後期也會提一個提案啦就針對成本實質審核的部分應該希望共產會能夠幫忙啦我就希望到時候共產會跟我們大院大家都能夠支持去杜絕這種惡質的這種低價搶票的行為發生好不好好好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝那接下來再請謝榮介委員質詢"},{"start":6247.213,"end":6275.005,"text":"剛剛看到謝榮介委員跟林俊憲委員坐在台下這畫面很美代表我們交通委員會是可以好好討論來主席我們是為了台南市的交通建設未來要怎麼大發電就要交我意見這樣很好我請主委來 陳進德主委請"},{"start":6281.55,"end":6291.455,"text":"委員長 主委長 我對這項修法非常憂心我看你探討幾個 因為我知道很多 為了要修法 因為法保在各機關內有面臨很多困難面臨很多挑戰 所以我想說要來修改"},{"start":6301.636,"end":6321.393,"text":"但是如果放到最高的量就對了我認為說你們收這個二十條是規定什麼情形下可以拆除選舉性的手錶就是說原則上我們原則上是公開手錶嘛都是公開拆開原則上公開手錶但是選舉性的手錶就是說首先扮演你手上的主角心臟之後你來建立一個名單就對了"},{"start":6330.759,"end":6351.41,"text":"只要邀請者已經經過審查過的程序來這樣就可以了就不需要再辦理公開招標了嗎不是不是不是都是公開招標沒有喔我了解到的應該是不是你現在要修法的方向是這樣嗎它是每一個個案這個個案公開招標公告之後"},{"start":6352.37,"end":6369.884,"text":"有興趣的廠商會投嘛那按照我們設定的資格選出來你現在就是說 貼紮 心紮 抽箱 合計 抽箱的名單之後不是所有的 是每個個案你現在要修正經 我們現階段就是說大概有幾種 四五種的情形可以辦理選擇性的指標啦現在啦 現況啦"},{"start":6375.43,"end":6384.963,"text":"那這樣呢 您現在先請教的一項就是說經過主管機關認定者機關就可以辦理選擇性招標"},{"start":6386.889,"end":6405.103,"text":"對不對 對好 來 主管機關什麼人工程會 就是你嘛 對所以你經過 認定過之後他就可以辦你選擇選的招標怎麼還有什麼公開的招標工程會是例外就是說如果在這些要件裡面碰到一些特殊的"},{"start":6406.103,"end":6421.786,"text":"主委啊 不能再例外了啊這真要命耶 這樣下去的時候會大條啊跟我們報告 他這個先建立一個所謂合格廠商 並不是一個我知道嘛 你因為這個條文你這樣一改在全國的 全國的結構 只要你工程會過了OK啊 你說的可以全部可以選擇那個採用選擇性的結構啊 跟不是這條"},{"start":6435.069,"end":6454.862,"text":"我感覺牽涉很大主委我跟委員報告工程會並不是採購機關我們是政府採購的主管機關我知道 但是這些變成是你們認定可以機關就可以採用工程會不會隨便認定這樣你就變成管理有夠大工程會不會隨便去限定一個"},{"start":6463.053,"end":6470.886,"text":"這個沒有特殊的情形會限定說沒有啦 你這樣就變成公共工程委員會你如果認為說這幾間廠商可以這樣其他所有財幹部門都沒辦法"},{"start":6478.317,"end":6497.126,"text":"他就要照你們的規定去用 等於你們有特權嘛你的權利是有夠大的 委員可能誤解了啦不是 但因為你現在講的辦法是說你剛剛解釋是說我公共工程委員會 我們不會誤被認定你誤解了 我們不是指定說哪些廠商可以我們是指定哪些採購的這個標案"},{"start":6501.488,"end":6518.417,"text":"如果說經機關來請示那工程會當然會來考慮對嘛 它清晰過 只要你公共工程委員會認定可以就可以了嘛那機關就可以採用限制性招標了嘛 選擇性招標嘛明確就是這樣嘛這個對機關採購比較有関心沒關係啦 因為這還沒成立還沒煮熟飯啦本席今天給你提出這個 這是說大家各方有意義如何"},{"start":6530.498,"end":6548.832,"text":"是不是可以修復得更漂亮是不是可以修復得更漂亮我不是指責你啦 我也不是在建議你是說將來就變成 公共工程委員會變成太上皇這樣 今天如果你在做主意 我相信你啊有很多人來做主意 我不一定相信這個委員大家個人有意見啊所以包括這個22條 第一項第六款 這很重要"},{"start":6558.14,"end":6572.49,"text":"什麼情形還可以拆除犯罪性的手錶犯罪性的手錶就是 不用公開手錶啦我給大家報告 這樣比較快啦甚至連公告都不用啦犯罪性的手錶就是這樣嘛 就可以直接找鄉鄉來簽約啦這種手錶的特殊度就對了啦 是非常地特殊啦"},{"start":6583.345,"end":6610.957,"text":"理論上來講就是說應該要重演嘛既然要做限制性招標就應該要重演才對馬哥你們現在在這個條文裡面我看到的是有第18條的第3項你們把22條第1項第6款裡面有一條主委我告訴你沒在跟你不知道沒在跟你沒注意到裡面有一句說因為能預見之情形因為能預見之情形你竟然把這規律再提掉"},{"start":6612.81,"end":6638.069,"text":"哇 這事情更加嚴重本來是規定說在周邊的環圍內我們未能意見之情形所以必須追加工程以外的工程是這樣啊所以不需要 如果要另外周邊會發生重大不便嘛所以這有很多困難所以我們才會這樣做嘛結果你現在把這個意見"},{"start":6641.428,"end":6649.815,"text":"因未能意見之情形 要把它提掉 提掉就變成怎樣一百萬要加四十九萬就對了 加五十萬他也不用再照表 他就照原本的想像來說說就好了"},{"start":6655.404,"end":6683.783,"text":"我跟委員說明這句話是罪語啦就是說因為未能預見之情形當然每個機關就是因為未預見所以到時候執行的時候預算高就是做的時候高於原預算嘛或原不然因為未能預見之情形就是阿伯在管控的時候你是不是你如果沒有 如果準備沒有就對了譬如說我們倒過來講假如我是承辦機關我如果有心要做做屋主 做督"},{"start":6685.731,"end":6711.859,"text":"我這工廠1500萬我好保一千萬就好我好保一千萬 特定的人我製錶料好了我後面五百萬我不用再製錶了您現在改料後就變這樣了他的程序都沒有變跟原條文都沒有變您現在改料後就變這樣了不是 刪掉這個因未建之情形必須追加企業以外之工程等等等所以"},{"start":6712.935,"end":6726.343,"text":"他的這個他的原來就是說你這個機關呢必須追加企業以外為什麼必須追加企業以外就是因為未見之情形嘛所以我現在跟你說你這把這股拿掉"},{"start":6728.713,"end":6741.622,"text":"我剛才說的一千萬發保料我阿伯要再兌加五百萬我不用再照表了這個跟這句話有關啦我直接找原本的衝衝來做就可以了這些程序跟這句話刪除不刪除是無關的那是無關的阿伯檢調可以辦不可以辦就有關還是無關的"},{"start":6747.802,"end":6770.187,"text":"比較無關的 主委你怎麼這樣想呢你真的要把這個條件組結放到零候候所有的審判機關裡面 大家就肆無忌憚了就已經有夠零了 坦白說現在要用財經法去辦這個荷包價就對了 要保修我們的荷包"},{"start":6771.226,"end":6777.629,"text":"坦白說檢調單位就已經攔上家人你現在再這樣他們就摔上家人了他們要怎麼去辦啊再來就是說群眾來控制群眾來控制"},{"start":6785.847,"end":6796.813,"text":"施工現場在這個條件好啦,工廠的設計都算啦,現在是公民眾來控制,你們說這裡就是符合衛能意見之情形,你們裡面有這樣的討論啦,結果你們雞肋,就是說因為有這個情形,所以我們把衛能意見之情形拿掉,我告訴你,你內部的討論是這樣,這樣是不對的,不好啦,主委,你不覺得這樣是有矛盾的嗎?"},{"start":6815.688,"end":6841.04,"text":"我今天要拔雞骨我地方發報我叫人出來控制一下就好了那承辦機關我可以用嗎這不好啊我的意思就是說在要不形成法律議程我提供這個意見是因為有人建議希望修復更嚴謹一點不是說"},{"start":6844.281,"end":6848.103,"text":"這樣做就一定會有問題你這裡沒有問題 下面會有問題大家保留順便空對不對他就在想沒有空間要專家的人就是在想空間結果你把它創造成空間更大空間對不對限制性的招標就是不用公開招標甚至連工格都不用了可以直接找鄉鄉來簽約如果這樣"},{"start":6873.632,"end":6882.256,"text":"這就對鄉鄉很憂慮嘛你現在要把30條改成什麼改成韓傑省的酒瓶不用收阿伯金有這個情形嗎 來來來這是免分的勝利我告訴你 我要給你賺要求最近國防部的採訪就對了你不用啦 免分的啦 我要給你賺你不用金分 不用阿伯金"},{"start":6902.386,"end":6914.556,"text":"這來攤比較大條 不然這樣你會害到老總統變成他起來做總統 手還要手這麼靈活 更加狡猾變成不用拿本 不用金本就可以更加狡猾主委你可能沒注意到 四節有這部分喔我有看到 我昨天晚上還在看"},{"start":6925.24,"end":6945.809,"text":"他是講說勞務採購除了正當禮物外免收押標金保證金等他並不是所有的限制性招標都不能收押標金剛才委員可能有所誤解我請副主委來補充說明這個其實本來原來就換得更寬原來是說溢價的那種情況他得免收嘛"},{"start":6946.249,"end":6956.756,"text":"那為什麼限制性招標現在把他限縮到限制性的招標沒有換款你沒有辦規有影響什麼有什麼要辦規藏二票金就不用如果今天有市議結束股票有二票金這樣對你有什麼風險"},{"start":6971.634,"end":6992.351,"text":"跟我們報告本來就他本來的規定就是溢價方式辦理的採購免收押標金我們沒有放寬我們是把他的免收我來問限制性招標裡面不用公開招標一條三十條的規定限制性招標不用收押標金"},{"start":6993.512,"end":7009.296,"text":"限制性招標得不公告所以他並不是全部不公告這跟有人說明那原條文免收押標金是溢價但是限制性招標除了溢價之外他還有一些評選我把問題說出來"},{"start":7016.806,"end":7044.222,"text":"我是希望阿伯送出來叼文你們要注意一下啦我請教那個副主委啦像我們追求廠商的押標金齁在法律上啊公法上不當得力請求這個這個見解請求的請求的時號是5年嘛對不對一般的公法的請求權來我來看看你們想要給他蓋2年是什麼那2年多大家照料料"},{"start":7044.963,"end":7071.158,"text":"因為我們基本上是因為是從機關他得知或可得而知啦那個一般的工法上請求權他的每一種方法計算的這個起算點不大一樣所以我們基本上是把他統一那我們也不希望說你統一我問你 你看你越拚越硬我們小兄弟就在不良的小兄弟就在退不回來你現在退五年五年就有時候我們就退不回來你總要給他改造兩年"},{"start":7075.396,"end":7086.605,"text":"我也覺得奇怪 你在想什麼若是對政府有保障的我支持你 沒問題這個是指機關你知道了要去追那你知道了一直不追"},{"start":7088.151,"end":7108.259,"text":"這個期間的這個調整嘛所以你不能說你這個你寫的不明確喔你現在是在給我解說你才說你知道了你不追所以兩年沒有喔調文就是這樣啊調文就是這樣說對不對知不知道來知不知道的認定是怎樣我是認為在要限縮"},{"start":7113.888,"end":7117.958,"text":"執行者的權益的時候我拜託你一件這條你再索賀一件"},{"start":7119.264,"end":7141.838,"text":"不然會漏氣啦 真的啦這兩年萬一如果剛好兩年倒不倒就被我不良的小兄帶走我在跟委員說明啦他並不是說兩年沒有追到不能再追我如果兩年內都沒有啟動要跟你追追查那就你不能再主張我告訴你啦就是說我們過去啦34條第三項割標進行必須保密啦"},{"start":7145.72,"end":7151.144,"text":"但是你現在拿出來的修法就是說本來就都喜歡保密為什麼現在有特殊情形什麼叫特殊情形有的要去訪價嘛"},{"start":7167.176,"end":7173.703,"text":"沒有啦 你現在...有的要去訪假我不是不想你去訪假但是本來都要保密的東西你現在給我擺一個特殊情形就可以不用保密了這個東西撈出來 想要算什麼"},{"start":7184.757,"end":7204.214,"text":"我請副主委來跟您說明原則上當然是要保密嘛原則上要保密但是他在每些個案進行的時候有時候他必須去進行比較或者協商那在那種狀況底下他可能就必須要公開啊什麼叫特殊情形公開是公開這項還是公開全部"},{"start":7206.67,"end":7232.303,"text":"那當然是要看他那個個案的性質到底哪些可以公開哪些不能公開我們沒有辦法足以把所有的情況在法條裡面寫清楚那你就變成是說有你們的施行細則在上面那也是一個方法如果說有累積足夠的個案我們可以用施行細則來進一步規劃那現在因為他是沒有那個例外的條款變成講對這條啦副主委"},{"start":7235.221,"end":7259.18,"text":"你們要頂這些私刑細則 希望上這個委員會啦 上來分析一下沒有啦 什麼關鍵 我可以提早給國家負責採訪的人 給你們提供意見啦你們用用的 會夠不要下落 會對自愛難行 夠不要大家開火的事件都必然重生 這裡崩那裡崩好 這個我們再個別跟我們再請教好 謝謝"},{"start":7270.814,"end":7286.186,"text":"好接下來請林俊憲委員諮詢那宣告一下林俊憲委員諮詢完畢之後我們休息10分鐘好感謝主席本行邀請我們工程會陳主委來陳主委請"},{"start":7292.237,"end":7315.171,"text":"委員長主委早主委我今天跟你探討一個很多人都擔心的問題就是我們政府的工不服務我們當然需要人才但是現在欠很多人現在有專業的工程方面的人才他不願意到政府部門來有可能看過這個這兩天你看"},{"start":7318.615,"end":7337.732,"text":"考選部也發現了這個問題所以考試院考選部也提出一個警告你看我們最近各課對於2022年開始土木工程類缺用情形2022年還沒有缺額再來23年欠135個到今年欠240個"},{"start":7345.171,"end":7362.896,"text":"那政府部門如果沒有這些專業的公務人員來執行土木工程的相關業務那這樣當然拼盡我們就有煩惱了人家要先探討是怎麼臨時不可以來當然有幾個原因嘛我們剛才說的我們看過很多啦 接臨時啦還是說他如果靠到技術的這一招"},{"start":7368.837,"end":7378.162,"text":"還是說民間部門有更好的方法可以開一年那他們可能就會選擇民間部門第一個"},{"start":7379.366,"end":7392.019,"text":"考選部的分析 讓你做參考我相信柯慶英這個主流不知道有否給你我們有跟你們討論過兩次我知道 就三個幾個部門嘛考選部 全區部 還有我們工程會大家有來開會說 這問題要怎麼解決有幾種嘛 第一不該來考嘛第二 考到了不該來報名"},{"start":7399.782,"end":7412.662,"text":"這個很嚴重有將近三成 最高三成他入局以後他不來報到課程我就不可以來第三就是他到了以後他做不了多久他就辭職"},{"start":7413.851,"end":7432.804,"text":"他就理解了這三項所以主委你說你開會了這問題要怎麼解決的確是委員剛才指導的的確情形是這樣子的目前持續推動就是希望比較像醫師的不職業"},{"start":7434.385,"end":7461.055,"text":"獎金這一類增加獎金的方式讓具有土木類專才或有技師資格的能夠多一些獎金第一個那第二個甚至在考量考試的方式考試的類科或難易程度你是要幫我比較好考你的意思是考試院有在考量因為怎麼考試是考試院的政策那第三個 他們會尊重你的意見第三個就是說"},{"start":7462.489,"end":7477.405,"text":"土木類科我們分中央跟地方地方又分東部跟西部我們是中央還好中央這個當然沒有這麼嚴重地方就更嚴重了鄉鎮公所比縣市政府更嚴重"},{"start":7479.267,"end":7503.308,"text":"鄉鎮工程他職等很低嘛那東部呢花蓮台東屏東澎湖這些考上的他去那邊就要待下來了幾乎都沒有報到所以我們目前工程會在推那種比較偏遠地區的培訓你要用培訓班對我就是要跟你討論這一題所以我們目前在明年度要在花蓮要跟宜蘭大學合作辦一個學分班那你現在遇到一個問題"},{"start":7505.19,"end":7524.2,"text":"第一個 總預算不通過 國民黨也看一看這個問題剛主委點出一個重點 你一些 譬如說花東的地方 離島的地方 人才不願意去 更嚴重了你像那個江庭林宅 很多人都不想去花東 客廳也不可以報到"},{"start":7525.521,"end":7549.138,"text":"那怎麼辦所以工程會你這個辦法我是支持你他現在去我們辦土木工程學分班學分班跟宜蘭大學合作因為花東那邊沒有土木科系希望可以吸引更多人就是說他至少給他一個在地的人來培訓對現在中午就沒過了我們就你就副分級總召你們來看看這幾位是為你們辦的"},{"start":7551.227,"end":7577.418,"text":"為了發動那個未來推動重大工程的需要你現在總預算沒過這種新的辦理的事項你都沒辦法做了其實鐵道局也有說過鐵道局說他現在最缺人的就是東部分局啦鐵路也一樣啦很多人都不可以去東部啊公路一樣公路公路也一樣鐵道局很嚴重啦他要87個現在到90個欠27個"},{"start":7580.888,"end":7598.59,"text":"所以這個 我舉這個例子就是說 你總算沒過啊其實受害的啊 中央地方都受害了藍綠政黨都受害了 地方政府集中的都公民黨比較多嘛你現在在很多界外其實對地方政府重要 緊急需要的 你現在都沒辦法做"},{"start":7600.031,"end":7626.669,"text":"好了 最後一段時間 我要跟主委 因為時間要跟你討論 植栽公安的問題因為我發現這一點 台灣的植業災害有一點嚴重你看我們的重大植栽傷亡 這是羅東坡統計越來越多人稍微有下降 但是營造業下降速度很慢主委你看 我們營造業"},{"start":7632.113,"end":7652.081,"text":"這個從2014年到20就是最近兩年營造業平均一年都要有150萬重大的每個月都要十幾個人有重大之災的傷亡死亡我講的是死亡大家可能不知道台灣的營造業是很危險的環境"},{"start":7654.898,"end":7683.289,"text":"這裡有一個手裡我看現在一年要死一百五十個一個月要死十幾個這營造業的整個屬於重大職災而且佔了我們全體重大職災的一半一半所以不夠你這個要贏多少台灣人我們都敢做就算是外勞偏多我不知道啦我沒有拿到進一步傷亡人的背景"},{"start":7684.485,"end":7699.453,"text":"但是這麼高的死亡率這死亡人數現在我看是絕對的人數而且它降低的速度很慢最近兩天對於160倍才降到145個那麼這對於職災的防範我們有你檢查工程會應該有你負責因為這幾年我們有一些重大工程譬如說大規模的"},{"start":7714.591,"end":7720.598,"text":"高樓層的 深開化的這都真的有一定的規模性還有危險性"},{"start":7722.301,"end":7745.103,"text":"那麼我希望我們工程會作為公共工程主管機關應該可以如何叫勞動部來協同從管理制度面來熱衷更多自災風險來保護這些工人寶貴的生命也不要讓他們受到傷害尤其是西方的人手"},{"start":7746.434,"end":7759.014,"text":"主辦機關 藥住啦 都是我們公家的 帶電啦 供路局啦 隔鎖供路局啦所以這點是不是要注意 你這裡有什麼看法"},{"start":7760.387,"end":7779.596,"text":"好 謝謝 這個除了勞動部有他的依依他的職責在做集合之外工程會會去集合那另外呢我們在法制面在公務工程的評選那裡面會有關於職災的扣分的一些規定甚至重"},{"start":7780.777,"end":7807.25,"text":"比較重大的會報伊林的條款停權你講到這個剛好就是我要跟你提的我們有一個扣點沒有錯我們的扣點的定義有一個中度比較小嚴重比較多什麼叫中度 什麼叫嚴重根本上沒有這個標準就要三個評審委員自己決定所以我覺得應該要有一個明確的規範它缺失的程度"},{"start":7808.345,"end":7828.603,"text":"第二 這個靠點最令我生氣的就是比如說高差兩公尺以上 你沒有防止墜落的安全設施所以叫做破壞的 嚇死了第二 施工價不穩定 所以你站不起來就破壞了第三 工區內外安全的防護措施不夠"},{"start":7830.14,"end":7849.271,"text":"重複一直發生叫你說你集合好不好你不應該這三點原因不斷地重複出現這是我跟你說的所以我們目前的集合扣點制度絕對有問題否則每次這三項都改不改都永遠排在最前面"},{"start":7850.492,"end":7866.329,"text":"所以我也要這種所謂齊頭式的施工查核我認為要再改變應該先針對高風險的工程加強密度管理我這是看日本怎麼做我可以提供"},{"start":7868.411,"end":7889.216,"text":"注意你做參考日本就有重點監督制度他特別條列出來你只要是這幾種的工程這幾種施工的方法比如說深開化 做高度 高橋墩這個都是極度危險的或者是說你是第一架得標的工程"},{"start":7890.151,"end":7911.024,"text":"他都認為你可能會節省成本安全防護措施的不足所以他有特別表列出你如果是這幾種他會提高他的監督查核的頻率還有標準我們現在是沒有我們現在所有工廠平均的檢查頻率都不足其他主要的問題是從哪裡來第一 什麼檢紀"},{"start":7914.384,"end":7929.094,"text":"檢舉啦 民眾檢舉 媒體報導啦我們都不會有啦 第二有啦 你有說低價得標偏低的啦第三 工程品質欠佳的你說你大概發現的時候都是已經被動式了"},{"start":7930.035,"end":7932.398,"text":"我們希望讓台灣能夠降低我們營造工程的危險性"},{"start":7947.774,"end":7960.873,"text":"我看到的那種數字對我們來講可能就是一個數字但是最重要的就是家破人亡的慘劇你想想一年平均營造的市一百五十幾個一百五千個"},{"start":7963.656,"end":7986.046,"text":"各位都要洗澡幾個 這個我們看了非常痛心 好不好這個我們遵照委員的意見來看必要的相關制度法規或規範來做修正好 感謝主委 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝林俊憲委員 來 謝謝陳輝那我們現在休息十分鐘 十分鐘之後繼續開會"},{"start":8008.809,"end":8011.614,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8035.316,"end":8040.1,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8057.247,"end":8063.609,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8086.605,"end":8092.791,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8106.118,"end":8118.37,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8121.135,"end":8140.606,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8154.871,"end":8170.276,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8190.693,"end":8195.778,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8207.452,"end":8208.754,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8262.355,"end":8262.375,"text":"好"},{"start":8281.877,"end":8306.234,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8312.705,"end":8340.503,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8345.213,"end":8351.254,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8373.217,"end":8375.384,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8415.642,"end":8415.702,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8444.525,"end":8471.563,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8473.592,"end":8481.613,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8488.268,"end":8504.77,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8506.049,"end":8534.002,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8551.945,"end":8560.187,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8599.816,"end":8601.217,"text":"交通委員會現在繼續開會請接下來質詢魯明哲委員進行發言"},{"start":8617.372,"end":8646.18,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們工程會陳主委陳主委請委員長好 陳主委我想今天這個政府採購法政府採購法因為我印象深刻我正好民國87年87年擔任中立市市民代表剛開始從政然後正好是我們那時候採購法上路的那一年"},{"start":8647.06,"end":8670.455,"text":"所以今年我們發覺針對於很多食物上就是這些卡卡的東西我也看到你們都啟動了去修正我也聽到了我們政府採購單位我又訪問一下包括地方政府相關一些部分大家對於整個修法的過程目前看起來方向肯定還是稍微多了多一點當然我們來看一下"},{"start":8671.636,"end":8690.641,"text":"在整個採購法 現金制度 招標的方式公開招標 現值金招標 選擇金招標這基本上分三大類看起來 件數來說現值金招標最多在70% 這個統計但是現值金招標有時候顧問公司它的金額相對有時候不見得那麼大"},{"start":8691.461,"end":8705.89,"text":"稍微比較簡單的那限制營招標佔70%可是真正的金額所以在重大工程很多金額動輒數百億甚至地方政府幾億的一個工程那我們發覺以金額來算"},{"start":8707.071,"end":8723.629,"text":"公開招標還佔55%所以在公開招標的一個制度裡面這一次你們也做了一些調整其中包括了公開招標就第一次招標一定要有三家三家才可以做一個開標"},{"start":8724.83,"end":8751.959,"text":"那其他限制型招標跟選擇型招標雖然限制型招標量那麼大不過因為金額重要的都不在那裡所以很多的重大工程甚至一些急迫性的工程甚至一些明明就只有少數專業的一個廠商才可以做的工程就還是要再等等等等等到後面那等到後面會發生一些滿可怕的事因為重大工程有在交通部裡面很多這種狀況"},{"start":8753.419,"end":8776.158,"text":"一拖再拖拖的時候經費又不夠拖到第三次上網挖發覺這次是真的經費完全不夠然後又開始牽扯找經費整個再來惡性循環所以在整個的一個看你修法的一個主要的一個過程做一個整理第一個就是第一次招標就是不用三家限制一家就可以開標"},{"start":8777.475,"end":8799.892,"text":"那第二個最有利標就也不要上級機關去核准像我們現在鄉鎮市公所 區公所在 我要決定要最有利標公告金額以上的要做最有利標那都要上級機關做核准當然這也是時間的問題啦時間的問題那這是第二個第三個 小額採購當然是公告金額150萬"},{"start":8801.884,"end":8820.195,"text":"現在是十分之一你把十分之一修掉了你說各個地方政府這些中央機關那你們自己因地制宜來規定也就是說可能五十萬甚至一百萬只要一百五十萬以內都可以那第四個你們也加強惡質廠商的處罰的一個機制"},{"start":8824.137,"end":8847.426,"text":"因為我想問一件事就總和來說其實採購法條那麼多但是最大的精神都是希望能夠找到做出來有品質跟有效率的一個公共工程那我覺得在整個的一個目前整個修法的制度你覺得能夠怎麼樣有效落實我覺得品質是滿重要的你來說一下好不好"},{"start":8848.693,"end":8863.751,"text":"第一個就是政府採購法這個修就是說立法之初原立法者就是採取比較防弊的角色而且非常的嚴格的角度來這個立這個法"},{"start":8865.993,"end":8893.89,"text":"那當中當然有修但是沒有大的改變所以我們這次是參著採購機關還有各界的意見那麼做一些適當的修改那麼我們希望透過程序的簡便那麼有一些束縛讓採購機關比較方便但是沒有影響到採購的品質那選出最好的廠商就怎麼選商怎麼做好工程這部分在既有的規範之下那都可以來進行"},{"start":8895.071,"end":8921.24,"text":"那採購的部分我們做了一些修正好 這一次在採購法修正由於第一次招標一家以上那我們一家以上就可以招標我又特別有注意到一個狀況我覺得對於一些重大工程這絕對是一個正面的訊息不過我第一次看到一個修法就是讓我感受到是優質廠商劣質廠商一起放鞭炮 真的"},{"start":8922.741,"end":8943.682,"text":"這兩個極端這個優質廠商他可以節省很多的經費好好做公共工程不要為這個行政採購法拖那麼久那所謂惡質廠商有心的廠商他也很開心他很開心他開心什麼原因呢就是我們從民國39年開始之前的法律營產工程一路到現在就是防弊的機制"},{"start":8944.443,"end":8972.913,"text":"那在早期來說它是要多成本可能如果你要去做一個微標或者去做一些奇奇怪怪的事情你還要花滿多的一個成本在現代雖然網路上但是它相關的一個風險還是非常非常大它成本也非常高為什麼你要找人微標你要不要通訊你要不要記錄你要不要LINE來去相關的很多一個訊息未來如果真的有出問題的時候在我們法務部門它要查證其實"},{"start":8974.413,"end":9000.751,"text":"資料是比較多的如果現在有心人的心還是沒變所謂的惡質廠商他一進來就會說太開心了就是大門開了其實窗戶後面的小門全開了所以我是覺得正面的效益當然多於負面的時候我們還是要做我是認為還是要做但是我覺得有一些防弊的機制我覺得真的還是要特別的一個注意其中第三項"},{"start":9001.812,"end":9028.961,"text":"小兒採購150萬因為現在已經有很多的一個制度我覺得因為已經沒辦法因為你要全國試用可是你要知道有很多的偏鄉有一些的公所他一年的預算2億扣掉人事預算其實這樣沒有多少錢他現在大部分的招標對於像這樣的偏鄉有一些小地方甚至小單位他現在150萬公告金額以下的公告金額以上根本不用外聘委員"},{"start":9030.001,"end":9049.495,"text":"對不對不用外聘委員假設你已經休了一家也可以我就內聘委員五個科長就上了我覺得一點困難都沒有已經都沒有困難了那現在又三家都不必那像這樣的一個情況就是說大的我們要處理交通部一個國家級的建設這個思維我支持"},{"start":9050.336,"end":9066.157,"text":"那可是像這樣的搞不好有些有些機關他一年根本沒有超過150萬的這些的問題的時候他是放得很鬆那我們就只能相信這個人的問題那我覺得這個的部分你們對於這種的風險有沒有什麼雖然"},{"start":9067.438,"end":9081.814,"text":"利多於弊那這個弊的部分就採購法制度你有沒有什麼樣的想法我們有一些配套措施第一個就是機關當預算民意機關審訊之後在一定期間之內他必須公告"},{"start":9082.795,"end":9107.343,"text":"這今年度 比如說採購預算是多少要做什麼事情 相關計畫公告再來就是說 相關的領投標機制我們今天政府採購法有增加那個電子投標除了電子領標之外 電子投標那現在資訊那麼公開所以不至於變成一個資訊鎖壁說機關它為所欲為我只找一個A朋友來就可以了因為其他人都知道這裡有一個案"},{"start":9108.283,"end":9123.913,"text":"所以包括這個開標等標期要展年等等都有一些配套措施好的 現在時代很多的真的不一樣因為在早期的時候十二十年前是真的一堆大小的採購單位一堆人要來標"},{"start":9125.254,"end":9145.929,"text":"現在是一堆人不要來標你也知道就是上網你網多方便我就不要來領到底發生了什麼事從過去的趨之若鶩到現在很多的不騙你很多的近而遠之三個就這四個原因到底預算跟市場有滿多案子是脫節的所以造成了我這個來"},{"start":9147.39,"end":9168.275,"text":"利潤低 法律風險極高法律最少的部分在政府單位跟你行政mini公文我就弄不完了一不小心要跑法院 嚇都嚇死第二個當然最低標的一個制度大家就有一些固定的廠商在那裡他就可以拿到很便宜的或者標到之後他很有辦法"},{"start":9168.795,"end":9196.583,"text":"不知道什麼原因第三 外在的因素這也不用講了有一些可能土地要取得有些因素嘛民眾有意見甚至缺工料前幾天是但是我覺得第四項是很重要的很多人心灰意冷從熱忱到現在不玩了再怎麼跟大家講改制度完它也不來的原因就是供給政府的效率但我不是講你講包括中央地方的一個政府折磨折磨人怎麼折磨呢"},{"start":9197.684,"end":9206.421,"text":"從招標文件的時候當然你現在有一條講說強制性嘛我們政府的招標大家都用同一套嘛不要再加那麼多附屬一個"},{"start":9207.717,"end":9231.967,"text":"附屬的一個卡關卡人的一個點這是一個滿重要的你在招標文件的時候特別你有制式化的現在因為很多的機關他覺得他要再增加很多一個條文那這個部分未來到底要怎麼樣去做會不會減少這方面的問題第二個其實整個從評選一個階段開始人為的一個因素"},{"start":9233.247,"end":9249.702,"text":"這個也發生了很多的問題所以現在產生為什麼優質機關跟惡質機關他們同樣放鞭炮在你這個修法的過程中我覺得一定要特別注意這個訊息因為人的因素太重要"},{"start":9250.402,"end":9267.23,"text":"我們現在碰到很多人心灰意冷走人的我們覺得還不錯的廠商後面很多都是人但我覺得很可惜這些政府的採購人員就我所看到的其實我認為九成五九成五都很優他甚至怕他比廠商還怕他守得很緊"},{"start":9268.371,"end":9282.071,"text":"但是確實這中間也有蠻大一部分這個人的因素人的因素包括我們現在辦公室還有一個陳情還借到一個陳情陳情五千多萬的工程來陳情的陳情的要做什麼"},{"start":9283.717,"end":9309.183,"text":"就跟他跪下來 跪下來我退場好不好 饒了我 退場我不玩了他說跟他說對不起我不知道你的工程有固定的廠商在那邊做我烏魯叢林了 我跟你對不起我可以不要再折磨我了我們注意到這種 所以這個人的問題我覺得是非常非常的重要你知道我現在多少的工程我讓你驗過你就驗過我讓你驗不過"},{"start":9312.619,"end":9341.385,"text":"你就驗不過你驗過了我拖你半年一年我才付錢我馬上給你錢都可以你現在這種人為機制讓很多的優質廠商我就好好做然後可是可能做得比人家好但是也遇到這些問題這個的部分有沒有什麼樣的機制可以去導正這一次我們有關於估驗期要縮短估驗次數要增加讓廠商不用承擔那麼多的"},{"start":9343.246,"end":9358.139,"text":"這個帶電款這個是希望這個機關對廠商的一個改善剛才委員講的沒有錯那委員因為擔任過地方政府的首長所以你知道現在很多比方說尤其地方政府他那個採購人員是非常痛苦的我們這個"},{"start":9362.086,"end":9375.053,"text":"這個小額採購以上然後金額不大但是他要去採購要符合三家以上等等這些程序所以造成很多不必要的沒有效率所以我們這次有做一些修正主要那我最後一個建議"},{"start":9376.354,"end":9391.239,"text":"不用三家一家但是我建議說你們的指導原則因為現在有太多的器官都是用最低的最低的上網那個期間我既然只有一次不是 就第一次基本上有一家就可以我覺得要稍微寬鬆一點"},{"start":9392.879,"end":9409.9,"text":"讓大家在網路上甚至裡面有很多的訊息你要投稿的文件要準備並不是這麼快所以我倒是覺得說在很多機關確實都用最短的那個期限我是希望能夠稍微等標期要長那怎麼長呢我們這裡面"},{"start":9411.381,"end":9437.935,"text":"這次修法就是把契約範本要剛性化所以工程會當政府採購法修法通過之後工程會重新訂定相關的契約範本包括剛才委員所指導的等標期要長要怎麼長那這些我們都會重新訂定拘束採購機關來做這些事情等標期相對相對要稍微長一點因為第一次就可能然後但是驗收沒問題付款真的要規定一下"},{"start":9438.795,"end":9453.102,"text":"那不是說我愛簽不簽在那邊卡在哪裡我覺得這樣很不好最後一個因為今天法務部門員也在這裡現在修很多法案因為都是授權給地方政府我覺得像很多到時候很多機關在看你這個"},{"start":9454.162,"end":9469.635,"text":"小兒採購為什麼某某是縣政府市政府是50萬現在是15萬變成50萬變成他們優先調查的一個機關我跟你講這法律弄完弄了之後公務人員真的他們覺得正面"},{"start":9470.436,"end":9494.967,"text":"但是要他們責任加注他們責任他們才很害怕很害怕所以我們希望你整個的很多的指導指引相關的部分能夠我們工程會來負責的我希望你能夠多負一點責任好不好好 謝謝好 再來請許志傑委員咨詢"},{"start":9511.881,"end":9533.297,"text":"主席大家好 我們還是請主委陳主委請委員長主委辛苦 這個招標真的是一件很兩極化的事情限制三家當然有它的優點 也有它的缺點"},{"start":9534.346,"end":9562.52,"text":"當然我們現在用優點來往這個方向去我想最重要的缺點要怎麼防避剛才盧委員提到了其實我也深有同感就是說我們假設有95%以上的公務員都很好只有一兩%兩三%不好那這個一兩%兩三%主委有沒有思考要怎麼去防避"},{"start":9565.231,"end":9591.445,"text":"這個有相關的法律有相關的法則所以這個少數他要這個從中取巧那三家也一樣有辦法所以主要還是整個所以不管幾家就是說我希望說是不是我們工程會去幫忙思考防弊的部分有沒有辦法多做一些"},{"start":9592.245,"end":9614.461,"text":"我們過去就是房幣太多了所有的採購都考慮在房幣沒有考慮在心力所以政府採購法從87年實施到現在整個基礎還是在房幣的角度來限制採購的彈性因為當年有當年的環境現在有現在的環境彈性我們把它擴大但是房幣也沒有幫我去思考"},{"start":9614.801,"end":9638.825,"text":"防避就是剛才我們有一些配套措施啦機關必須預算通過之後就公告然後呢要說明那等標期要長我們其實比較務實的啦就是剛剛盧委員講的其實我也有遇到類似的case啦所以他以前有固定廠商你就怕不知道下來補啦所以我嚴肅就把你刁難啦那這個我們要怎麼樣去"},{"start":9643.757,"end":9663.862,"text":"去看到底他是做得不好還是被刁難我想這個委員也當過市長是的那委員也當很久了一定接受到很多陳情對不可否認的我們目前中央政府在各地的"},{"start":9665.253,"end":9691.009,"text":"派出去各地的分屬這一類的那麼因為手裡掌握很多年度預算應該怎麼處理因為我們時間不多我們比較具體一點要怎麼去防這種弊這個要多集合就是說你這個機關它的主管機關或者是首長那本身就要注意這些事情那如果你一個機關陳情這一類的事情太多經常發生那表示要換人"},{"start":9692.25,"end":9721.229,"text":"那表示要移送調查我是建議就是說我們就是有一些具體的去思考一下比如說我以前當市長的時候我也曾經說這個設計跟施工跟建造到底合在一起比較好還是分開比較好那他如果從設計到施工到建造都是同一個人同一家公司會不會比較"},{"start":9722.062,"end":9732.229,"text":"容易就是自己去主導那把設計跟製造跟監工分開會不會比較好"},{"start":9734.229,"end":9760.572,"text":"我請副主委來跟你回答委員這個大災問那確實在採購食物上面這是兩種不同的思維我們時間不多看那個重點我們講重點看有什麼重點可以處理那針對委員第一個問題就是說怎麼防篤這個承辦人員刁蘭其實他這個行為是違反採購人員的倫理準則只是我們一直以來機關沒有嚴格去執行所以我們前一陣子有用函"},{"start":9761.732,"end":9789.166,"text":"這個通函的話那現在還是有啊現在還 對所以第一個就是說假設進入到我們我講一個比較具體的我們發現我們個案去處理我講一個比較具體的是不是主委跟副主委可以想一下就是說他其實剛盧委員提到有很多很多很多的小案子對不對那每個鄉鎮施工所可能他可以自己做決定嘛對不對那五個也很簡單啊那其實最有利標的好處就是我們大部分在買衣服買房子幹嘛的買車子都是最有利標也沒錯"},{"start":9790.439,"end":9817.851,"text":"但是就是說我們 我原則上是支持最有利標的也支持就是這個三家可以放寬這個我都支持但是我現在在想我們要怎麼樣去避免避免這個弊端比如說我剛剛講 這個很好玩我當市長的時候我就把設計跟建造分開我想說這樣比較沒有問題 對不對結果還是有問題有一家公司專門在包建造的"},{"start":9818.868,"end":9845.139,"text":"到最後我才發現怎麼都是這一家這一家都是刁難前面的所以有很多類似這樣子的問題那我是覺得就是說怎麼樣才是最好就是說我們應該不是針對一個案件而是所有的案件比如說我假設省電燈泡好了我這個區公所做的跟那個區公所做的跟那個鄉公所做的好像類似同樣的東西但是平均價格差很多"},{"start":9847.239,"end":9876.58,"text":"是不是有這個大數法則可以去思考因為你每次只思考一個案件其實真的都很困難誰對誰錯有些是公務員不對有些是廠商不對讓我們被陳情的我們也搞不清楚到底你是刁難還是你品質不好所以我是覺得可能我要提供主委跟副主委就是說我們工程會是不是要做一個不一樣的思考就是說我今天是針對TOTAL的"},{"start":9878.018,"end":9893.734,"text":"不同單位的採購有沒有辦法去做一個類似的相近的比較好 謝謝委員這位意見非常好那我們工程會是有能力取得所有的決標的這個情形"},{"start":9894.475,"end":9919.726,"text":"那我們再來研究透過怎麼樣的一個軟體來找出一些異常找出一些異常或找出一些不合理的地方來作為我們可以對這個機關做一些要求改善或說明這樣子的一個方式反正我一直在想我是想說這個方法不錯你們可以思考可以 這個委員這個意見很好因為這個真的是每一個你個別去針對個別案件"},{"start":9922.347,"end":9946.148,"text":"你搞不清楚啦那另外就是說那個主計跟政風的參與因為那個現在參與度有多少我請這個主管來跟你說明報告委員那個之前委員有請我們要去加強這個那我們修了執法把那個得通知把它改成應通知那成立的比率大概從40%已經增長到53%了謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":9949.981,"end":9972.257,"text":"這個部分我也跟主委跟大家分享其實政風跟主計看起來大家都比較害怕但是為什麼我會提出說當然會增加他們的工作 比較不好意思但是有政風跟主計在就有第三方有他們在的時候坦白講你想要作弊至少他們兩個都看過"},{"start":9975.004,"end":10001.803,"text":"這是一個防備的概念那另外一個也讓公務員更有擔當的概念就是說他們說一個公務員 如果叫檢察官起訴他可能沒有問題 但是被起訴然後呢 一個案子審了五年 八年這個公務員差不多就被叫擔任了不像這個優秀的公務員有些人去隨便檢舉又遇到檢察官 又把他起訴你就很壞了"},{"start":10004.315,"end":10031.713,"text":"像這種東西 為什麼我們其實我認為主計跟政風的加入是保護公務員是保護公務員 就是說你有給兩女朋友在看 給四女朋友在看那你可以讓這個採購大家更公平更符合規定然後也更難作弊然後他們都在因為你如果只是讓市公所 區公所 鄉公所去做坦白講"},{"start":10033.589,"end":10055.177,"text":"有的 我說一巴掌的人不好啦如果這一巴掌裡面剛好有一個鄉長或是一個區長不好他就都固定 這裡就有他的班農嘛我相信那個主委很清楚啦這個班農其實有的是真的不好的啦要怎麼去防備這個班農"},{"start":10058.535,"end":10080.913,"text":"我們除了法制面之外大概也會定時的針對採購機關辦理採購獎詞就是採購人員辦理採購獎詞我是給主委建議獎詞都不是政令宣導我是希望說類似我剛才講的有一個大數法則然後去看不同的公所這些小額採購"},{"start":10082.523,"end":10108.866,"text":"買賣這盒有的是3萬有的是10萬我看才知道這個就可以做一個客觀的比較讓人比較不覺得在這裡這一定有工程介紹才有多少嘛比較可以有機會不會讓他說上下其所你說3萬4萬差1萬有什麼環境因素或者是有什麼考量我不知道但是也許有一點小價差差幾倍那就有問題了"},{"start":10110.151,"end":10125.192,"text":"那我們如果說第一個我是希望說第一個就是這個部分我們工程會做一個思考第二個部分就是剛剛我提到的可能要拜託主席政風辛苦一點其實你們是跟公務員保護的有你們在的大家有沒有跟後輩來"},{"start":10126.952,"end":10154.928,"text":"那第三個我是希望說剛剛講到的時候那個固定廠商有一個另外一個不是固定廠商財美有照進來的標註要去用刁蘭這個第三方坦白講工程會是很辛苦啦我想很多案子我也沒辦法處理我要拜託工程會來處理通常是設計的時候設計得太模糊啦什麼是等級品那個設計得太模糊啦這部分我們再來接近那我的意思就是說大的案子其實大部分會到工程會來"},{"start":10156.311,"end":10164.133,"text":"但是呢小的案子他可能不見得會到工程會來 很多那這些很多是不是工程會再想一個機制怎麼去幫助他們"},{"start":10166.65,"end":10195.171,"text":"這有時候你看不到 很多的啦你從外面看都看不到 到底這件事有作弊這件事沒作弊你真的不是那麼容易看得出來有些是廠商做不好當然我們要要求 這個我都贊成有些是廠商做不好被刁難的那這個在地方如果在全國各鄉鎮市各縣市有很多的時候你說全部都到工程會來其實都很困難的所以搞不好在地上有的人有的工程會不敢到來"},{"start":10197.145,"end":10219.404,"text":"像這個東西是不是地方有機會有這種機制第三方單位或者是仲裁怎麼樣去讓他地方比較少這種問題有的 直轄市他有採購申訴的機制我知道 我是說可以一起想就是說從我們工程會的角度因為直轄市 我說這1%裡面如果剛好是某個縣市長以前南島有一個 你看破400多年"},{"start":10226.059,"end":10252.459,"text":"剛才有一個集中管理局你剛才好不好處理所以我是覺得就是說是不是中央還是有一個這樣子一個整體的思考那針對我剛提到這些問題做一個考量這樣好不好好最後我再小小的要求一下就是我們那個主委有去看過的高雄機場國道7號高鐵延伸這個都主委有親自去拜託主委再給我們關心一下進度讓它如期如質高鐵延伸現在在環評當中"},{"start":10254.734,"end":10278.342,"text":"辦理環評 不是環評審查這可能有點時間對 就是這三項這三項現在都是我們高雄中大建設我知道那希望說主委你都有親自去看過我們也非常的感謝那後續也希望說繼續幫忙給我們鋪序讓這個工程如期如止好好 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員接下來再請陳雪森委員質詢"},{"start":10294.178,"end":10321.285,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請主委陳主委請委員長公務員很難為尤其碰到這個採購法動不動不是衛照文書就是圖利他人馬祖那個地區你曉得公務員沒多少人嘛採購法的問題你去叫公務局局長"},{"start":10323.061,"end":10350.512,"text":"是不是能夠攏會貫通我覺得都有問題那何況相公所啦底下的這些基層的人員所以馬祖這個地方很傷腦筋公務員現在不敢審查審查如果有疏漏主觀如果去批批的不對像柯文哲這樣 柯市長這樣批的不對問題就來了"},{"start":10352.612,"end":10376.243,"text":"當然它那個是大的那麼下面是小的那那個地方缺工缺料主委你有沒有聽說過一個工程標18次標不出去的有沒有聽說過18次的確是標18次標不出去留標18次的確是很多的這一種事情發生在馬祖還有工程沒有人來標你有沒有聽說過沒有人來標為什麼"},{"start":10378.853,"end":10406.814,"text":"馬祖這邊交通不便所以他的材料缺工材料要比較單價比較高他的材料商船把材料運到大的島南甘島北甘島沒有問題連北甘都有問題運到舉光島去問題來了舉光島的材料可能一個小工程100多萬他沒有水泥沒有石頭那你要商船把石頭材料運過去的話對不起"},{"start":10407.964,"end":10436.808,"text":"我船運的油料費30萬你要算給我所以這個成本要怎麼算所以比較像這類的地區或者是山上我們都可以允許這個採購機關寬列預算比較高的單價來做設計最近風景管理處就標了一個就設計了一個案子他用台灣的造價再高一點點沒有人標一次兩次三次"},{"start":10437.581,"end":10465.703,"text":"誰要去飆 誰飆誰死誰倒楣何況像北竿你看我今天跟你列舉北竿我們四大工程延宕工程縣長也很倒楣鄉長也很倒楣鄉親會怪啊說你縣長施政怎麼搞的工程一直延宕一直延宕一直延宕前面碰到疫情的問題後面碰到沙士的問題然後再碰到缺工的問題還有海象"},{"start":10466.926,"end":10496.065,"text":"像我們的大秋橋大秋橋難度非常的高比馬祖大橋的難度我聽他們講水流跟湧非常的急一根柱子打下去以後一個浪來又把它吹倒了甚至那個施工船整個船被打翻了這個成本要去哪裡算問題來了像中山國中的工程標了18次標不出去現在標出去了縣長拜託他來標"},{"start":10498.417,"end":10524.786,"text":"飆了以後又無法施工那你說我們要罰他20%咧還是怎麼樣咧所以現在叫合意解約可能朝這個方向啦可能啦我不能講確定啦那這個責任又怪到縣政府啦你這縣長怎麼幹的所以運氣好運氣不好差很多啊你碰到那種兵力夠的施工人員夠的很快一下把他坐起來"},{"start":10526.923,"end":10555.855,"text":"你看 何況還有經費的問題一般補助款又補助一半剩下一半行政院再給他扣問題就來了你大的縣市的話 他的財政可以稍微挪用彌補小的縣市沒辦法一個蘿蔔一個坑 多少錢就多少錢所以 主委這方面問題請你做個技術指導好不好那地檢署不管你啊你動不動不是這個圖利 就那個衛照文書"},{"start":10557.011,"end":10584.256,"text":"一個工程十幾萬 誰要做啊好 找了一個人來 拜託你做那估價單要三家 要找他太太填一張找他弟弟填一張 填了有三張送去 十幾萬人與人之間啦 不舒服檢舉 未到文書一次兩次三次 這個問題常見的我覺得這個應該出在制度的問題"},{"start":10585.848,"end":10613.678,"text":"主委你在修法的時候能夠幫我們想一想好不好有 所以這個就是這次修法的重點就是過去三家才能開標的規定會取消離島地區的這些採購法的制度你可能要另外想個辦法怎麼樣能夠讓他放寬怎麼樣能夠做不要動不動就圖利他人什麼的公務員不敢看公文 不敢批沒有人敢批公文"},{"start":10615.031,"end":10642.325,"text":"你就跟李前總那種 批個西他敢批如你啊 或是渴啊他不敢批啊是不是 不曉得被誰害啊現場沒有那個意圖 但是也會造成他有問題還有就是這個缺工缺工的問題很嚴重缺工啊移工能不能在馬祖地區當然我不只講馬祖金門 澎湖能夠適度的做一些開放這樣有辦法嗎"},{"start":10643.697,"end":10671.306,"text":"公共工程的個案如果缺工那麼工程會可以協助專案向勞動部來協助申請你專案我這個專案有必要這個專案結束以後下一個專案又來了那每個都要專案來報他是常態他是常規就是現在在發生的事情主委你這回去研究一下好不好另外百分之二十為上限是不是這樣"},{"start":10672.998,"end":10696.427,"text":"他延宕的話20%為上限就是罰款我們罰了他20%這一家罰完以後倒閉了那你要重新招標對不對那延宕的更厲害了這一家已經很勉強的我們拜託他所以變成怎麼呢我們還每天去廟裡燒香拜託他不要罰20%"},{"start":10699.107,"end":10728.077,"text":"他延宕的話對我們會造成更深遠的影響變成我們要去廟裡去拜託你在台灣管理死活你依法依規來你超過規定你超過多少我就罰你百分之二十那百分之二十我不是要他百分之二十的錢百分之二十錢你把他罰完以後問題更多第二家來再罰百分之二十你說的工程要搞到什麼時候合年合月合日"},{"start":10729.215,"end":10754.614,"text":"主委這是我們在馬祖發生的事情對就是料 材料運送成本高嘛那也沒有工所以他在設計的時候本身單價就要設計高一點符合現況那麼這樣才能夠找得到工人廠商物料呢才能夠在他合理的歷任之下完成這個工程這個跟山上"},{"start":10755.515,"end":10782.388,"text":"的工程一樣本身就是很困難嘛所以必須可以提高的在設計階段問題是各部會補助我們的一些東西你增加三分之一可以啊你增加一倍他會給你嗎就像我們的長照可能一個床位在臺北只要五萬塊我們你卻要五十萬我們卻一個床位要一百萬呢衛福部就不會同意我們啊"},{"start":10783.686,"end":10810.564,"text":"所以你在這裡面可能要有一個明確的稍微指導一下好這個我們等修法過了之後那必要的相關的規定來修正或指引或者是函給各機關針對像這一類偏遠地區的補助款你應該就他的困難點補助款的部分應該要著以觀念主委這個看起來我今天的質詢是個小事真的是很大的事情"},{"start":10811.772,"end":10831.673,"text":"一件一件的公務員怕批公文公務員怕審查然後又缺工缺料缺經費問題很多所以現在公僕難為真的公僕難為我想行政院工程會你們在採購法修正的時候"},{"start":10832.782,"end":10853.974,"text":"指導一下好不好那有機會也派一些人員到馬祖去辦一些相關採購法部分的說明好不好能夠做一個訓練這個可以好不好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝接下來再請何新成委員質詢"},{"start":10866.004,"end":10873.176,"text":"好謝謝趙薇我們請主委可以OK要不要喝口水是是是"},{"start":10876.454,"end":10896.203,"text":"委員長這位好我想我今天關心的是我們公共工程的一個安全還有安心的問題一開始我首先先肯定針對公共工程的一個品質那我們工程會有辦一個金職獎那很多人都說這是工程界的奧斯卡獎那也因為我們進入第25屆今年"},{"start":10899.665,"end":10928.761,"text":"我看到報紙媒體是說1月21號要在台北這邊來頒獎那頒獎的目的呢當然是為了提升公共工程品質改善生活環境促進廠商的良性競爭那你有四大獎項那今年度呢我必須要很高興的跟主委跟政委說那我爭取的兩件在台中的那剛好都有獲獎一個呢南台中就是在我的選區台慶4號的十九甲砸到了工程"},{"start":10929.261,"end":10955.945,"text":"那在北台中就是衛生福利部豐原醫院他附設了一個厚禮綜合長照機構那兩個當然一個是所謂的橋樑閘道土木工程一個是一個長照的一個建築機構那都是我們公共工程的金職獎而在這個興建的過程裡面那我也很高興這個第一個工程一切順利然後所有的工程"},{"start":10957.445,"end":10974.713,"text":"範圍內都平安我們從業人員也都安全接下來包括這個衛生福利部等一下 衛生福利部的這個在上一頁 上一頁 上一頁衛生福利部在台中後里"},{"start":10976.113,"end":10999.733,"text":"接著還有一個所謂的鼠立醫院的一個後裏分院那我也期許可以盡快的來進行完工也能夠可以獲得再申請這個金職獎我要講這一些是說我們重大的公共工程能夠去爭取我們公共工程委員會的這個奧斯卡獎金職獎事實上每年都有但是不多那這個"},{"start":11001.515,"end":11015.267,"text":"獲獎的過程包括審查的過程也好像層層關卡要一關闖過一關也不容易但是我最終還是希望所有的獲獎回到它最終的是一個品質"},{"start":11017.79,"end":11031.59,"text":"專業還有它真正對我們國人民眾生活造成的一個好的一個環境好的一個工程是樂利民生的這個我想政委應該同意吧"},{"start":11032.891,"end":11048.198,"text":"除了工程的相關的專業人員跟從業人員的安全平安很重要金子獎就是他有比較長的查核期經過出評跟附評全部都是外部的委員"},{"start":11049.458,"end":11073.198,"text":"沒有工程會本身的人員參與全部都是外部的委員所以這個專業性跟他獲獎的公正性是值得肯定的尤其是在最後賦品的時候主審的委員還要能夠舉出理由說服其他的賦品委員說為什麼是這一家得優良不是那一家所以整個是一關又一關是沒有錯那我相信這兩個工程應該實至名歸"},{"start":11075.14,"end":11104.38,"text":"是 那我只是一個建議我們既然已經是第25屆了那表示我們歷年來獲獎的公共工程無數那獲獎的公共工程我們有沒有把它集結成一個可以讓國人清楚了解這個金子獎的意義跟它的重要性的一個平台我覺得這個是第一個讓國人對公共工程的品質還有對這個獎項的一個政府的信心"},{"start":11105.34,"end":11128.493,"text":"信任他才可以安心這是第一個我給的建議這個我不知道有沒有做如果有會後可不可以給我一個報告好不好我為什麼會談到這個呢國人對於公共工程的一個要求跟信心信任才牽涉到國人使用公共工程裡面的安全性還有它的方便性舒適性等等"},{"start":11129.293,"end":11158.253,"text":"任何的公共工程都是要有利於民眾的生活那平安最重要所以我接下來就要跟你講我們這個工程有金子獎那公安的部分因為我剛剛看到其他委員也要再談到這個公共工程公安問題台中市最近發生了兩件事一個叫北區的中央市場的改建工程鷹架倒塌一人受傷一個是我們台中榮總的工地鷹架也是倒塌"},{"start":11159.553,"end":11185.569,"text":"雖然沒有造成人員傷亡但是呢每一件只要見報見新聞之後大家都會對公共工程的這個公安的問題到底有沒有做好那主委 政委你可不可以跟我講說這公安的問題呢是這個勞動部的問題是他的職責跟我公共工程委會可能沒有相關但是政委我要跟你講有相關相關在哪裡呢下一頁"},{"start":11186.738,"end":11215.167,"text":"我們去年12月2號三讀通過了治安法修法要保障公安我們舉雙手贊成也一定要做而且這一次是大修那這一次大修的修法重點呢在於其中一個強化營造工程的源頭防災還有呢預防公安強化營造工程的源頭防災公安的問題那這兩件事情公共工程委員會可以做什麼"},{"start":11216.047,"end":11231.246,"text":"主委我不知道你有沒有去看過治安法的修法內容你有沒有看過要不要看過我不知道公共工程委員會的各位團隊有沒有人看過我建議去看一下好不好因為這會牽涉到公共工程裡面的一些細節"},{"start":11232.828,"end":11255.676,"text":"修法之後呢要求工程業主將營造工程交付規劃設計跟施工時應該依工程特性分析潛在危害還要什麼編制安全衛生圖說還要什麼規範還要什麼還有預算然後還要使施工者採取可以採取預防的作為"},{"start":11256.856,"end":11267.285,"text":"這個看起來好像跟你們沒有關係但是實質上如果你去探討一下你們公共工程在執行面務實面甚至層層的分包之後"},{"start":11269.281,"end":11295.613,"text":"我要說什麼叫做分析潛在危害什麼叫做編制安全衛生圖說這個東西我們公共工程委員會要不要跟勞動部進一步跨部會來協商一下什麼樣的一個標準什麼樣的一個門檻什麼樣的一個制式的範本圖說是可以讓大家有所依循的"},{"start":11295.973,"end":11319.552,"text":"好 這個委員的意見非常好因為最近我們剛好有同仁去日本去他們實際上的大營造廠商演習回來日本的公共工程它那個施工圖說是很詳細的很具體的不是只有書面的設計要求而已它是一張一張的圖說那你施工者 廠商你就一定要按照這個圖說比方說這裡畫 比方說"},{"start":11322.915,"end":11349.273,"text":"多少個鷹架多少個防護網等等非常清楚這個我們正是要學習的方法那我們希望說政府採購法通過之後我們這次強調說我們那個7月換本希望剛性化將來的施工規範能夠強制那我們會參著先進國家比方說哪些國家這種施工最安全最重視我們看過大概就日本 德國"},{"start":11350.874,"end":11361.542,"text":"這個我親身見你到日本看它有一個路口一個施工是很多人在做比方說指揮車輛什麼很多人而且很忙盡忙碌的在做當然成本高"},{"start":11362.904,"end":11382.203,"text":"我也看過其他有非洲國家一個工程可能幾個人在做旁邊圍了一堆人在看所以這個文化是不同的那當然是制度我們有改進跟精進的地方讓我們同意委員的要求那我們進一步修法之後能夠來學習相關的國家的施工的"},{"start":11383.344,"end":11401.73,"text":"規範或設計施工的圖說你每一個不管是大包分包次分包都有這個圖說都有這個SOP拿去施工從制度面來減少這個職安或者是這些職安公安的發生那另外就是招標"},{"start":11402.97,"end":11417.023,"text":"的時候我們希望說你如果這些都做到了沒有一些過去沒有一些勞安職安的問題那我們可能你的分數會有加分的地方那你如果這個有這個職安相關的"},{"start":11419.986,"end":11438.343,"text":"公安的問題的話就算你以前得到金職獎是會取消金職獎的而且你根本沒辦法進入連報名金職獎第一關就淘汰掉了所以這個要請業者來注意但是因為它層層分包或者是不見得每個施工廠商都會那麼"},{"start":11439.344,"end":11456.818,"text":"那麼乖 我就是要提醒政委原則性我同意政委剛剛所講的我們要學習人家好的地方安全的一個公安的要求包括在工程特性的分析 圖說還有規範等等都要細緻化但是第一個"},{"start":11458.383,"end":11473.897,"text":"業界有沒有這樣子的專業人士做得到做不到這第一個人的問題要先幫忙想誰可以來做這些事情第二個我們的要求的這些層層的要求裡面在我們現在食物面"},{"start":11475.218,"end":11489.154,"text":"營造商大小包商參差不齊規模大小又差異很大那我們又要怎麼樣的分級分類的來要求第三個剛剛你講到分包我們現在呢"},{"start":11489.915,"end":11517.076,"text":"公共工程裡面呢在這個職安法的修法裡面也有要求工程業主若將工程分包給多個施工者施工者應指定其中一個施工者來負整體工程安全衛生統合管理責任這個呢文字是這樣條文文字是這樣寫實際上到底是如何運作跟指定這個都事關公共工程委員會要怎麼樣的讓所有"},{"start":11519.558,"end":11539.015,"text":"參與負責公共工程的推動 發包 興建到完工 驗收等等這每每各各很多細節都需要公共工程委員會可能要想清楚因為你的執行面要能夠執行就必須把這些細節下一個 具體"},{"start":11542.618,"end":11559.467,"text":"具體明確你跟勞動部各司其職這樣子才能夠真正的確保公安也才能夠做得到啦不然我們訂了一些執法規如果是業界做不到的也沒用啦那反而是反其道而行"},{"start":11560.839,"end":11587.535,"text":"沒了我們這樣子的一個美意啦所以我現在是提醒政委我也希望公共工程委員會的團隊職安法修法了請詳細去看相關的細節那怎麼樣的我們公共工程委員會可以做什麼讓他這個職安法真正的能夠在實務面能夠落實在公共工程裡面在公共建設裡面可以真正的落實職安公安好不好好謝謝政委謝謝"},{"start":11591.325,"end":11607.244,"text":"好 謝謝接下來再請徐富奎委員質詢謝主席 邀請我們陳柱惟陳柱惟請"},{"start":11615.266,"end":11644.148,"text":"委員長主委好 主委我們現在邁入2026年那我想這個新的年度當然我們期待新年新年要有新的氣象但是因為我們今年的總預算到目前為止都還沒有審議那我想這個對於屏東的發展我們真的是憂心忡忡那尤其主委過去也很關心屏東的許多的一些重要的一些交通建設還有一些產業發展的一個問題那我想主委面對這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":11645.329,"end":11669.839,"text":"那當然我們依目前預算法第54條的規定我們原本的一些預算的資金上面能夠照比較去年的一個規模但是很多的新興計畫完全沒辦法推動那像是我們屏東的微小南溫還有高屏二塊這些都攸關屏東重要的交通發展跟觀光的一個發展那主委面對這樣的困境 主委能不能說明一下"},{"start":11672.771,"end":11674.554,"text":"北回之巔是新興計畫高頻二塊"},{"start":11679.441,"end":11708.262,"text":"應該核定了吧對 但是預算都綁在今年的預算裡面好 那因為相關規定是這樣 如果新興計畫當然按照預算法規定是我們行政計畫是不能執行但一個例外如果是立法院同意的話立法院同意的話是可以執行所以如果說雖然115年度總預算還沒有審查完畢那但是新興計畫如果立法院同意那麼執行還是可以執行"},{"start":11709.481,"end":11712.813,"text":"主委 那依目前這樣的政治氛圍你認為這個國民黨跟民眾黨會放行嗎"},{"start":11716.578,"end":11741.521,"text":"不過就是總預算我們幾乎沒有很少說有整個年度115年結束了預算還沒有審查還沒有覆違的你以前這麼多年來所以我認為115年的總預算總是要解決的總是要解決的這個解決就是說到底要怎麼編列那麼是不是總預算先覆為審查"},{"start":11742.802,"end":11753.855,"text":"那副委審查再來討論哪些預算要調整那這個才是我們行政機關也希望大院能夠來支持的"},{"start":11755.038,"end":11772.952,"text":"主委我想最重要的一個邏輯這個建設不分藍綠尤其這個預算卡關之後會影響到我們整個這個交通也好治水也好甚至很多社會福利社會住宅的一些公共設施那這部分我想對於百姓都是切身之痛那請教主委"},{"start":11773.792,"end":11789.569,"text":"我們目前 我們工程會有沒有統計 針對我們的新建工程 公共工程有多少案件會因為這樣的總預算沒有通過 造成影響 甚至這個未來有可能會面臨這個 要再追加金額的一些狀況 我們有沒有做這樣的一個分析統計"},{"start":11790.45,"end":11810.691,"text":"比較具體的就是有一個新興計畫是編載經濟部四年一千萬那是補助地方政府就地方管河川的治水計畫四年一千億四年一千億這個完全是要補助地方的那這個新興計畫如果沒有執行的話我們馬上會遇到困難就是說有的縣市政府他的治水"},{"start":11811.812,"end":11826.861,"text":"他這個已經排隊在這邊要等著要補助的啦那麼有的已經可能是前年度已經就是說有些計畫他有相關預算但不夠的部分是希望透過這個4年1000億的錢啦"},{"start":11831.617,"end":11853.593,"text":"來補助那現在這些錢都沒有沒辦法用所以有可能有些預算已經執行到一半了有些計畫已經執行到一半了就是本來打算用這個錢來協助的那就變成沒辦法動那整體來講影響各縣市政府的縣管河川縣市管河川的治水是影響非常大"},{"start":11855.638,"end":11880.044,"text":"主委剛剛講到重點 我想過去這個尤其我們這個屏東也好 過去我們都很重視這個治水的一個問題所以不管是過去的八年八百億 六零六百億我們主委剛剛講的 我們有很多的分期 第二期 第三期 第四期的計畫都已經在進行當中尤其我們聯名訓期 五月份訓期就來臨了我們都很擔心 這樣一個政治的一個惡鬥會造成我們這個百姓的一個災難"},{"start":11881.344,"end":11896.266,"text":"所以我們還是這邊呼籲我們今年度的總預算要趕快來審議那切入今天的主題 剛剛大家都在討論這個你們的採購法的修正草案那當然我們這次總共的增修訂的增刪的部分大概有52個條文"},{"start":11897.648,"end":11921.983,"text":"那最重要的就是刪除首次公開招標要有三家投標的一個限制未來只要一家就可以決標那當然這個就會有正反兩面的一個論調那主委面對這樣的狀況你們有沒有相關的一個防備措施能不能再說明一下已經在預告 那麼修法之前也徵詢各各工協會或各地方政府的意見"},{"start":11923.619,"end":11945.661,"text":"贊成的也有那不贊成的也有那如果以我這樣來了解贊成的居多啦贊成的居多比方說地方政府採購人員或者是比較小的營造商那麼贊成的居多那反對的也有反對的比較偏那個大型的企業啦那總是我們會做參考那麼將來"},{"start":11947.222,"end":11961.967,"text":"那透過行政院這個審議之後會報大院來一併審查那當然我們有些配套措施這個配套措施就是每一個機關那預算通過之後要限期就要來公告那對外來說明那"},{"start":11964.608,"end":11986.423,"text":"等標期也要拉長那麼相關的評選等等都有配套措施那主要是說這個87年通過的採購法沿用以前幾十年前的這個規定那以防弊為主那這裡面呢這個資訊的透明化跟通路已經"},{"start":11987.498,"end":12005.227,"text":"差太多了我們現在是115年所有的政府採購都在電子採購網上面都公告了領標都不用本人去領投標也都不用公司派人去投標那公告的方式也都很清楚資訊這麼流通所以雖然我們把"},{"start":12006.267,"end":12022.307,"text":"三家才能夠開標改成一家但是這樣反而有助於這個更熱烈的參與我是判斷真正一家決標的情形不一定會增加反而會減少"},{"start":12025.626,"end":12045.154,"text":"主委 那我看以我們釣魚的資料 當然我們比較擔心是過去公共工程這個流標狀況非常的嚴重那像我們中央部門來講 勞動部 國防部這個都高達兩三成 還有經濟部那我想這部分我們未來當然是期待這樣一個修法之後 能夠能讓我們的這個投標或是這個"},{"start":12046.754,"end":12064.883,"text":"招標的部分能夠更順利但是當然我們也是要求未來的公共工程的品質的堅固的部分應該要強化那我想去年我也特別有請教這個主委有關於這個土質廠的問題那果不然這兩三個月真的狀況非常的嚴重包含我們這個"},{"start":12065.971,"end":12083.079,"text":"去年諮詢的時候 土方的處理價格從3 4倍的起漲到最近已經調漲到 甚至到高達15倍很恐怖的 主委 那面對這個困境 主委這邊有沒有什麼樣的進一步的一個處理的一個機制"},{"start":12084.982,"end":12101.036,"text":"當然土石方的管制是屬內政部的業務當然也是我政委的部分督導的那這裡牽涉到土地的分區使用的許可包括農業用地或山坡地等等那也包括這個"},{"start":12102.897,"end":12121.868,"text":"建造的申請等等是要跨部會的協商那我們最近也在討論我們希望整合各部會那麼來整理出一套有效去化的方法那麼不至於亂到但是要實務比較務實的來解決這個問題但畢竟這個是"},{"start":12126.21,"end":12152.127,"text":"銀件土石方他並不是比方說化工廠的廢棄物也不是硫酸什麼這些酸液的廢棄物那這些土石方事實上可以再利用的那到底用什麼方法來解決我想我們會整合各部位提出一個比較務實的方法那當然啦也需要各部位不要本位主義然後把這個問題就沒辦法解決"},{"start":12154.195,"end":12176.652,"text":"主委我想這個真的要列入一個很重要的一個課題尤其我們目前也接到很多的澄清案件包含很多的這個公共工程飆步出去因為就是這個土方去化的問題但是這裡面我們呼籲這些業者 清印業者或者是處理業者那麼也不要這個隨便這個抵制拉抬"},{"start":12178.104,"end":12197.501,"text":"當然當然但是我們現在發現就是說上有政策下有對策有的就不給你賺公房也不給你賺有地方賺的地方都不給你賺另外就是說像這個建造的申請實照審查還有土方的區域基本上屬於地方政府應該負起的責任你每一個縣市政府"},{"start":12198.041,"end":12216.803,"text":"你至少要公辦的土質廠那有公辦的戰事廠公辦的企劃計畫每個縣市政府都要這樣處理那至於內政部他大概是管一個政策所以縣市政府才是重要的縣市政府你不能說你沒有設置土質廠這些土資 土石都亂到沒辦法"},{"start":12217.304,"end":12244.36,"text":"然後來怪中央政府說政策太嚴苛或政策是有問題基本上我們回到地方自治事項地方政府的首長他本身就要建置地方這些土石方廢棄物的處理的計畫跟處理的政策我想這個才是正辦好所以我們還是期待趕快這個找出對策趕快來處理啦好謝謝好好謝謝再請李坤哲召委繼續"},{"start":12252.646,"end":12279.144,"text":"謝謝召委請一下陳主委陳主委請委員長主委好有關於公共採購他的流標清洗是非常的嚴重那如果是單單以公共工程的部分來說我們看到新北市環狀線環東段就已經流標了五次"},{"start":12279.864,"end":12302.21,"text":"而且我們看到國道一號甲線它的新建工程也流標了4次如果我們以歷年的流標的總建數跟總金額來看其實情形也是非常的嚴重那對國家整體的進步發展其實是衝擊它應該有的基礎那我們看到2023年449件金額達到1512億"},{"start":12307.771,"end":12334.035,"text":"那2025年1月到11月因為這種巨額採購減少只有這個流標金額是只有170而已但是它的件數卻是達到483件主委你簡單說明一下你認為這些流標的主要原因是什麼其中我們剛才有說明的就是因為第一次開標未滿三家佔了七成"},{"start":12336.249,"end":12361.766,"text":"這是一個原因那其他的呢其他的當然包括設計或預算那麼供期等等那以致沒有人要去投標也是原因主委剛才也提到相關的這個未打三家的這樣一個狀況其實它部分的原因是來自於國際原物料跟人力成本持續的增加"},{"start":12362.846,"end":12389.74,"text":"導致這種價金不符的狀況所以廠商的投標意願也低這也是一個不爭的事實另外這種國際原物料的價格波動也過大造成我們的調整機制因應不及這也是投標意願低落的一個原因另外就是原物料跟人力的缺乏造成這種已經是一個整體性的問題了"},{"start":12391.35,"end":12408.458,"text":"這都是流標的一個原因那我們針對這樣的一個流標的狀況我們是不是針對這種流標過或者是有巨大金額一定金額以上或者是有這種重要的"},{"start":12409.446,"end":12432.254,"text":"需求的這種採購或者是公共工程我們是不是會事先跟廠商大家來開一個公開的會議來了解相關的狀況來進行以後的這種招標是否比較能夠順利的推動採購跟公共工程有一定金額以上的採購本來就要對外說明然後呢"},{"start":12434.006,"end":12449.364,"text":"這個設計機關他還沒去巡駕那通常我了解現在機關通常在預算裡面就會編物條的金額在裡面了就是說我這個工程我多少錢其中項目已經有預留大概將來物條要留多少"},{"start":12451.202,"end":12475.753,"text":"已經在那邊等著物調了工程會現在是有一些基本的因應的做法但是我認為還是要更積極因為我們看到流標的件數跟金額實在是我們對於國家未來整體的發展也深深的擔憂另外我們對於工程品質的缺失當然我們目前是採取祭典的一個機制"},{"start":12476.733,"end":12499.414,"text":"那本次工程會也預計有提出採購法101跟103條的這種修法那就針對違規的業者禁止投標的限制那但是公共工程的安全並不是在於違法的之後的一些禁止更重要的是事前的預防"},{"start":12500.675,"end":12519.576,"text":"如果說尤其是事前有發生問題但是卻屢屢沒有做一個完整改善的業者也應該給予相關的規範來督促他進行改善才能避免這種事故的一再的發生那公共工程的這種"},{"start":12521.266,"end":12543.902,"text":"缺失的祭典機制我們來看歷年扣點的案件數以及該年度扣點案件的超過三件的一個業者這個主委你就來做一個參考另外我們扣點案件的這種平均扣點數也是逐年的增加2019年的時候是1.78點那2024年已經升到2.34點"},{"start":12550.37,"end":12569.237,"text":"那主委我們必須要來探討工程品質差和缺失它有扣點的這種懲罰性的違約金那以工程類來說它主要分成四個級距這四個級距主委也非常的清楚那我們現在要面對的問題就是說"},{"start":12570.526,"end":12596.221,"text":"工程會有做統計平均每個被查核到的違規案件中被扣點大概2至3分 整體大概是2.34分的一個平均那被查到可能造成職安風險的這樣缺失的比例因為查核率大概是10%這還是過去我要求至少要10%以上主委這個10%會不會太少還是會再做調整"},{"start":12599.242,"end":12614.986,"text":"跟委員報告我們也思考這些關於治安的問題那我們有另外一個思考是希望在施工設計階段就把這些問題能夠納入我們希望說將來這個施工的團隊"},{"start":12618.467,"end":12643.91,"text":"那麼有比較詳細的施工途說就是人力規劃或者是一些必要的安全措施都能夠納入甚至整個施工的標準程序這些工程會都希望透過相關企業範本或施工規範來拘束採購端政府機關能夠在他的企業範本或者是施工的時候就對廠商做要求"},{"start":12644.571,"end":12664.853,"text":"那從這部分來源頭來防渡這些公安的問題不只是從這些制度來處理相關的防範公安的問題主委我們現在更進一步來討論這種工程品質缺失的祭典機制就是說一整年下來依照金額的不同"},{"start":12665.774,"end":12682.53,"text":"那有缺失的大概是會被罰三千到兩萬四千元不等的這些罰款那以最高兩億元的工程目前是罰兩萬四千元主委認為這樣的金額兩億元的這樣的一個工程確實罰到"},{"start":12689.423,"end":12695.752,"text":"兩萬四千元你認為這樣的機制有辦法去促進公共工程的安全改善嗎我請那個處長來來處長說明一下"},{"start":12700.975,"end":12723.951,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢那大金的罰的點數跟金額當然目前看起來是比較少那當然這個我們可以來研議看看要罰多少錢可以達到一些警示或嚇阻的一個方式我們的祭典制度跟這種罰款在內的管理機制"},{"start":12724.972,"end":12748.825,"text":"有沒有什麼可以改善你認為必須來做一個檢討你認為要做怎樣的檢討跟調整基本上對比較高風險像防墜落的這些我們當然目前查的是加重扣點那金額部分當然是依照企業來罰錢那企業金額的部分我們可以來研擬辦理以上"},{"start":12749.961,"end":12766.799,"text":"我是建議罰款金額的基礎必須要來做調整就是說每一點的懲罰性的違約金除了採購金額的急劇的調整這個基礎之外也要依照過往廠商違規的紀錄來建立一個調整的機制"},{"start":12770.802,"end":12780.377,"text":"另外就是懲罰性違約金依照該年度的違規狀況我們要來建立累進的機制來 主委你說明一下"},{"start":12781.71,"end":12805.688,"text":"我想這個主要是讓這個比較不好的廠商他經常違規或者是有公安問題的讓他更困難進入公共工程的市場那如果好的廠商重視的讓他比較容易得標公共工程所以這裡面的關於評選的方式或者是加分減分的方式那讓"},{"start":12807.116,"end":12827.804,"text":"投身公共工程的廠商他能夠自己有個考量他有缺失但是他做一個完整的改善罰這些錢他不在意的就是你的這個金額過少但是2億你如果罰了1000已經很高了但是不可能罰到那麼多"},{"start":12830.54,"end":12852.506,"text":"他的罰款不高所以他沒有 他不在意這些是在意了他以後永續能不能繼續在公共工程裡面生存或者是他能不能出場要做說明 做補充我來補充就是說我們目前這個查核它是一個基本的花線缺失所以給他划多少錢基本上回到合約或者是行政法"},{"start":12853.246,"end":12873.515,"text":"他這個缺失回到合約如果說他有造成其他損害的話並不是說只能划這個還是可以划他造成的損害啦所以他重點是回到合約那當然基本的這一個划的這個點數啊我們是可以來這個再重新來研議看看能不能提高重新的研議跟檢討 主委因為時間的關係啊我必須說我們針對"},{"start":12877.136,"end":12902.425,"text":"公共採購及公共工程流標的這種情形的嚴重的確是對國家整體的發展跟進步造成衝擊這個必須請主委提出更有效的一個政策那相關的這種違規的缺失祭典的制度也必須來做檢討讓整個公共工程的品質能夠具體的一個保障以上好好謝謝"},{"start":12908.963,"end":12920.502,"text":"來 接下來再請邱若驊委員辭選謝謝主席 主席請陳主委陳主委請"},{"start":12927.645,"end":12954.265,"text":"好委員長主委好 主委那政府採購法的核心效率還有防弊嘛那說白一點主要就是兩件事嘛一個就是希望事情可以做得更快一點那另外一個就是就是事情不要出事也就是防弊那效率很重要這一點我完全同意那今天我們要請教主委一個更現實還有關鍵的問題喔那我們現在這樣改是不是把更快然後放在出事怎麼辦的前面請主委說明"},{"start":12954.745,"end":12979.277,"text":"我小朋友就是三家改為一家是基於客觀事實的改變現在的網路現在的通訊現在的一些通路跟六十年前七十年前完全不一樣了因為時代已經過去了這個是就是資訊的公開跟以前完全不一樣以前在你要領標你要當事人去縣政府領標我還是要提"},{"start":12980.078,"end":12988.789,"text":"那現在我們可以看到連小油採購都會出問題那也包括高機密的標案那也有被動手腳的情況下我們真的準備好要把這個競爭的門檻再往下放了嗎"},{"start":12989.298,"end":13015.233,"text":"我們如果不往前走就永遠在地踏步而且不是在地踏步是60年前的方法我們先來談這個市場的改動那這一次工業總會的潘理事長他也公開提醒如果取消三家的限制那他擔心的不是效率的問題而是劣幣組良幣那原因很簡單嘛他們的看法是那現在制度至少還有一個底線那不管怎麼樣還是有三家來做比較嘛那如果修法通過一個廠"},{"start":13016.374,"end":13042.725,"text":"一家廠商就可以來投標就可以公開招票決標那主委您認為市場怎麼解讀這樣這件事但是我也聽到很多採購機關都贊成我們的改我們的修改尤其是縣市政府基層的採購機關贊成的居多數那另外一方面是不是有一個訊號就表示那現在就算他算準沒有人來那就是直接就有一個就有這個機會拿到標案算準沒有人來就有機會調整預算"},{"start":13044.406,"end":13054.548,"text":"是 那主委你認為這樣對誰最有吸引力如果說算準了沒有多少人來等著機關調整預算調整這個經費這個也是一個弊端"},{"start":13055.205,"end":13081.428,"text":"那主委你認為這樣調整之後我必須跟委員報告這個會增加政府的預算支出非常多因為你時間延了之後重新發包重新 比方說計畫修正又來個物調 所以增加很多所以我們認為說我們就會聽各界的意見做適當的修正當然是也要大院委員都能夠認同才有可能修正那工程會你們有沒有去做評估說會吸引什麼樣的廠商"},{"start":13083.959,"end":13104.566,"text":"在做調整之後會不會就是反而變成吸引就是最趕最趕賭然後成本最低然後也最趕就是把這個風險轉嫁最快這種廠商他很少有機會一家去投標吧如果是一個工程能夠有意義做有獲利很多廠商都會去投所以您認為很多廠商都會去投因為他不會說不知道而不去投"},{"start":13105.126,"end":13132.126,"text":"是他一定知道所以不是過去說這個微標那我就直接問那您認為是有助於提升競爭力嗎當然有助於提升這個各方面的效率或者是決標找到好的廠商這個都是正面的而且我們參考的那主委這樣聽起來還是肯定的那你們有沒有具體還有清楚可以操作的嚴格審查的機制呢就是我們有一些配套措施啦"},{"start":13132.566,"end":13147.022,"text":"配套做事是要求呢這個預算通過之後就要對外說明嘛要公告嘛這是什麼樣的配套做事就是因為你們也有提到嘛因為現在歐美他們就是他們一直都是一家"},{"start":13147.743,"end":13170.017,"text":"對 就是一些採購協定也沒有這樣的規定那這個是完全是六七十六七十年前的規定主委你有談到這已經六七十年然後也有提到因為這是根據WTO就是世界貿易組織對 採購協定是沒有這樣的那我也看到美國的制度那他們現在的單一家的投標是高風險不是常態"},{"start":13170.837,"end":13197.879,"text":"那他單一投票他不是放寬他要特別的標記說有例外的狀況那機關也必須要書面說明為什麼只有一家那我們接下來會不會也要要求說也要有書面的說明必須要有市場調查的結果也要說明有沒有替代方案那包括那這些是文件嘛這些是說明嘛那他們也必須要出示文件那他們文件要包括說為什麼沒有辦法競爭那價格合不合理那風險如何被管控我們接下來會這樣子具體要求嗎"},{"start":13200.184,"end":13226.762,"text":"這個採購法裡面都有啦風險的評估等等那我們的採購方式包括低價標包括有這個有最有利標或者是限制性招標等等各種各種招標決標的方式都不一樣所以會被誤解說我們只是找特定的一家來就決給他不是啊每個標都要公開的啊公開的我沒有限制只能一家來是每個人都來"},{"start":13227.703,"end":13246.947,"text":"每個人都來存在誤解是為什麼因為近年來發生的事情大家也都很清楚像是有人利用小額的採購動手腳也有人把高機密的標案規格洩露出去那這些問題不是因為制度太嚴而是缺乏競爭然後還有外部的制衡所以制度特別容易被操作那我們要怎麼去達到這個外部的制衡呢"},{"start":13247.387,"end":13265.644,"text":"弊端當然跟機關有關跟採購機關有關所以我們這個採購法的修正是兼顧效率跟兼顧採購人員他的實務經驗所以我們認為說一直批評說一家好像要圖利誰一樣這是完全是一個錯誤的解讀"},{"start":13267.706,"end":13284.009,"text":"現在是沒有在批評誰只是我想向主委了解那現行制度下競爭門檻其實還沒有真正的降低那內控就已經管得那麼吃力那修法之後單一的單一家就可以決標那接下來我們內部控管能不能夠承受一定是符合資格的"},{"start":13284.269,"end":13305.489,"text":"是符合資格那在美國那他們有獨立檢查然後國會的委員也可以及時調閱資料那我們接下來也同樣可以做到監辦監督機關這個採購機關上級就可以監督他工程會是主管機關隨時可以去了解可以查核所以主計政風也可以會同來開標所以我們的機制是很嚴格"},{"start":13305.649,"end":13318.279,"text":"所以我們是可以做到像英國這樣子嗎他事後也要公告然後公開使用例外就是有例外的原因然後像包括最您提到就是國內外的就是國內的審查機關然後還有法院可以來做追究嗎"},{"start":13319.753,"end":13344.063,"text":"法院我是說他有一個審核的機制嗎因為他們也特別要求在單就是只有一個只有一個的情況之下他們都必須要出示文件也必須要有說明報告那當然就是如果說整個這個經公開招標之後就一家來那這個一家一定要符合採購器官他的條件比方說他是否符合什麼樣的什麼樣的條件"},{"start":13347.72,"end":13373.234,"text":"他的招標文件他的採購契約招標文件他一定是具有比方說他有多少資本額他有多少時機那他的底價是不是落在這個採購機關的這個底價之下這些都有一定的不是說一家機關因為我們現在是參考參考歐美那他們就是在在他們是也是一樣是公開競爭的那他們必須要技術上沒有辦法被替代然後還有"},{"start":13374.435,"end":13397.754,"text":"知識知識產權排他性他們才會使用單一家來去做我們這個招標方式很多種嘛我就說有的是用評選的有的是底價的有的是先評資格然後再來溢價的都有所以是不同的所以這個不是解讀說一家來任何一家我們都要決標給他並不是這樣子"},{"start":13398.755,"end":13414.074,"text":"因為剛才Asway我有提到嘛就是像我們有看到就是國防部最近的案子嘛像一個六億元的國防採購案得標的是一家室內裝修公司那國防部說他合法他在形式上是符合資格的那問題是這樣的結果是正常的嗎"},{"start":13416.322,"end":13437.331,"text":"機關他可以去設定他採購的內容他可以要求什麼樣的廠商能夠進來投標比如說剛才資本的有多少時機他曾經做過這個項目有多少時機那做這些要求之後避免這個沒有時機的進入他的這個採購"},{"start":13439.423,"end":13462.959,"text":"是因為政府的採購他有非常多像國防採購然後還有公共工程嘛然後鐵路還是捷運像這一類的那我們會不會來接下來來做分級化呢我們本來就有分級有具有採購因為像看到國防這個採購的案那我們看到這樣高度專業還有風險極高的採購案在絕標之前都沒有一個機制那到底我們有沒有一個機制來做審核"},{"start":13466.864,"end":13475.48,"text":"國防部他採購我剛剛講過按照他需求所以財相主委了解我們到底是靠什麼來做把關他有主管機關也有工程會可以去查核"},{"start":13477.609,"end":13498.872,"text":"目前他說形式上他認為是沒有違法所以今天就是要向主委了解如果我們把這個競爭拿掉之後我們面臨到的風險我們要怎麼去應對呢是每一個都有風險 三家也有風險你剛才舉國防部這個例子也是在現行的採購法之下發生的風險"},{"start":13499.833,"end":13523.085,"text":"所以呢我們很多配套措施必須來讓這個一家能夠開標這個修正能夠降低風險這是也是委員所關心的啦那主委那最後那在單一的投標的加壓延遲還有他風險緊急的機制啊那還沒有被制度化之前那可不可以請工程會明確的承諾我們不會就是冒然的來推動就是取消最低的競爭"},{"start":13524.646,"end":13546.798,"text":"這個也只有在大院三讀通過之後我們才有可能實施才有可能實施我們希望在這之前就可以明確就是你們已經有制定說那接下來就只剩一家來做法律沒有修正就是為此現行的三家OK好謝謝主委好謝謝接下來再請廖先生委員質詢"},{"start":13556.93,"end":13582.963,"text":"謝謝主席 一樣麻煩邀請我們的陳主委陳主委請委員長主委午安先跟您請教一下地方的事情我們現在新北市的基隆捷運去年經過行政院應該前年經過行政院核定地方政府去年有送基本設計的審議到交通部了"},{"start":13583.283,"end":13606.194,"text":"那交通部也在去年底的時候完成了審議那目前已經是轉到工程會了我不知道主委知道這件事情那我想在這邊請教一下後續我們工程會審議的可能相關的一些規劃可以讓我們的民眾知道如果有進到工程會工程會會安排基本設計審查的委員是 那麼就會這個"},{"start":13609.576,"end":13635.453,"text":"這個進行基本設計的審查那我們現在的做法就是說在基本設計審查到一段落之後會到地方去做現勘是那麼委員你會到地方去那麼到時候呢就會邀請地方關心的委員來參加那能不能大概抓一個時間當然我知道審查過程中審查不代表叫做核備嘛一定有審查的項目嘛那我們大概的流程大概會是怎麼樣那時間性可以讓大家知道一下嗎"},{"start":13636.104,"end":13664.995,"text":"他主要是審議他的基本設計的工法是否合理尤其是預算那單價是否合理那這些中整之後會作為一個結論那麼再回到這個交通部他去辦理那以過去的經驗來講的話那大概這個流程在我們中順利的話地方繳交的一些資料跟報告都是符合規範的話那我們工程會大概可以在過去的經驗大概多久以內的時間可以審訊"},{"start":13666.676,"end":13672.69,"text":"就看案大小 沒有競訴來辦理那還是業務單位可以補充一下嗎競訴處來說明一下"},{"start":13679.262,"end":13703.108,"text":"委員好 金融捷運這一個案子我們在簽程中找委員那通常我們找了委員以後呢到現場會有大概有半個一個月的時間然後請業務地方政府做修正然後大概地方政府如果快的話大概又會半個月會送達我們審議過後大概total的時間大概一個半月"},{"start":13705.268,"end":13728.624,"text":"好以上謝謝那就再麻煩我們的業務單位再多多的協助地方政府如果說有缺失的部分再麻煩多給一些指導以上謝謝那再跟主委請教一下有關採購法的部分那我在應該是去年的時候也有提到就是我們公家工程如果說得標的廠商那他可能有些財務的問題那其實我們現在的機制有一個機制叫做監管"},{"start":13729.684,"end":13758.323,"text":"這個監管的一個制度嘛對不對那就是確定下游的一些廠商在施作的時候那他是可以可能這個透過這個機制他們能夠繼續拿到錢然後繼續把工程來完成那之前遇到一個問題就是說得標的廠商他有訴訟的關係那被其他的債權人去追討然後有一個支付命令了那導致說支付命令的一個法律未接高於我們的監管契約那就變成說"},{"start":13759.564,"end":13787.802,"text":"下游的廠商如果他繼續做的話那他就拿不到錢因為我們發報單位一定是先這個支付命令優先的話錢就會先到這個債權人身上去那可能就會導致我們公共工程的一個延宕甚至導致於我們下報的廠商他拿不到他應付的款項那這樣子的部分之前好像我們同仁有提到說有預計要修法要來改善這個問題那相信大家也可能有正視到這個問題那可不可以說明一下目前的狀況"},{"start":13789.197,"end":13803.971,"text":"基本上這次修法有納入就是分包商跟次分包商在這種情形之下那麼他會強制是優先債權那我詳細情形請副主委來跟我們說好 謝謝跟我們報告就是說現行當然有一個監督付款的機制"},{"start":13804.511,"end":13833.971,"text":"但監督護管的機制是在沒有法院的命令介入以前有效如果有法院的執行命令進來因為他優先嘛我們沒有優先權所以這次我們是仿照海商法的規定就是說可能這些廠商對於這個公共工程的可以完成他有特別的這個付出所以他只要經過一個這個類似公證或認證然後讓機關核備那他將來這個債權會得到保障所以只要機關核備就可以不一定要送到工程會來"},{"start":13834.851,"end":13862.461,"text":"不用送到工程會但是它可能要經過認證或者是公證那機關它有一個等於是一個揭示的一個效果不會臨時找一個自在假在全進來所以原則上它是透過這樣的一個機制保障它可以領到工程會讓這工程繼續往下走好 那謝謝那這個部分就我們想說我們立法院也儘速來審議保障我們公共工程的品質 速度還有廠商的權益那另外再請教一下剛剛很多人在討論這個三家廠商投票的事其實當然"},{"start":13865.032,"end":13882.909,"text":"我相信會有這樣子的一個討論一定是就誠如主委講的現在資訊比較公開透明的我也認同這樣的一個論述但是你一個調了之後它實際的效益我是覺得說它實際的效益或許沒有那麼的大但是我們要我也不是說反對而是說我們要"},{"start":13883.73,"end":13890.053,"text":"來做一些我們可能預想到他可能產生了一些後續的問題因為如果說我們現在如果說一家廠商一個標案三家廠商沒有達到一家廠商來標的話其實機關不太會擔心因為我們只要再開標一次就是說等標可能會有一點點的一些時間要去等待但既然有廠商來標的話他下次也會來標這問題比較大那比較怕的是這個"},{"start":13905.661,"end":13918.15,"text":"工程的一個工程的一個編列經費有沒有符合市場的一個標的啊那當然是一個問題那我現在要提到另外的問題是我們現在如果說只一家廠商就可以來開標的話那我們擔心的是"},{"start":13919.795,"end":13946.97,"text":"這個標案的一個資訊的揭露充不充分那我以這個大家最近討論的很多的國防部的這個案子來講這個裝潢公司來採購這個炸藥的一個案子你說程序合法嗎我相信程序一定合法那個同仁怎麼可能做違法的事情但是這件事情合不合理那也就是說我們要得到要投標的時候我們必須要拿到原廠的一個授權對不對以這個標案來講的話必須要拿到原廠的授權它有一些門檻"},{"start":13948.01,"end":13962.703,"text":"那當我這個標案有門檻的時候我的採購機關它有沒有足夠的時間讓所有有意願來投標的廠商都有時間去處理這些前置作業跟門檻我覺得這是我後續會去擔心的"},{"start":13963.223,"end":13993.023,"text":"那就變成說如果說我以後有一個標案的時候大家擔心的時候你會不會跟某一家廠商講好了你先去準備前置的作業然後等到我一開標等標期我也不給你太長我就直接絕標了我們會擔心會有這樣後續的逼併所以我知道在一些很大的一些工程比如說剛剛講的捷運的工程都會有一些公開閱覽的制度讓所有有意願的廠商都有機會知道說這個標案要標什麼那我要準備什麼東西等到開標的時候大家公平競爭一起來投標但是當我們把這三家廠商的"},{"start":13995.246,"end":14009.305,"text":"這個規定拿掉之後這一家的時候那我就會擔心我剛剛講這些弊病我們未來要怎麼樣子的去去防範無論是我們公開提前的公開閱覽或是等標期的一個合理化拉長這部分麻煩這個主委能不能說明一下"},{"start":14009.465,"end":14027.071,"text":"有 這次也是我們修法裡面有的 比方說我們要求預算審完了之後 比方說專案政府總預算11月底要審訊嘛那審完了之後呢 機關就必須在一定時間之內對外來說明 對外來公告那大家就知道你這個機關有這筆預算了"},{"start":14029.532,"end":14057.332,"text":"要什麼時候要來採購那採購的時候當然現在都登記在政府電子採購網上面那麼都會知道那等標期那麼要求比較長所以這個配套措施都已經有考慮到資訊對 尤其是一些特殊的採購我覺得我們工程會一定要去給機關一些約束就是特殊的採購剛剛講的也需要廠商要有前置作業多久的前置作業是合理的那你就要給多久"},{"start":14058.172,"end":14072.002,"text":"然後再給一些比較保守的空間讓這些廠商都有時間去準備那才有一個公平競爭的環境等標期很重要我們也曾經看過比如說大的案它是跟國外廠商合作來投標但是那個"},{"start":14073.831,"end":14098.513,"text":"計畫是英文 當翻譯要花一點時間所以如果這等標期很短可能有人事先就知道這個案他已經準備好了那你如果說等標期很短他光把那個整個設計翻譯成中文就時間就不夠所以這個等標期要夠長 這個我們工程會會做適當的要求好 那麻煩 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":14102.881,"end":14117.202,"text":"好再來請王洪威委員質詢謝謝主席我請陳金德陳主委陳主委請"},{"start":14123.075,"end":14145.806,"text":"委員長主委長今天因為那個之前高雄爆發了很多的這個土方亂倒那甚至出現這整個的那個一個大峽谷那所以呢在我們的國土署就針對了土方有一個新制度從今年1月1號上路您應該知道嗎 裝GPS"},{"start":14147.686,"end":14170.441,"text":"對 那但是它影響所及第一個我們土方可以到的這個合法的這個土資場有限然後呢再加上就是因為這個新的制度很多你要符合現在國土署的標準的GPS的這個運送車它可能沒有這樣合格的標準所以呢"},{"start":14171.601,"end":14199.436,"text":"現在發生一個狀況就是有很多的土資廠都通知從今年1月1號開始他們暫停收容土方我想這你應該知道所以也引起了全省各地很多的工地停工再加上他們的土方的處理那個價格暴增所以有的甚至暴增到10倍但是問題是說現在已經有陸陸續續的很多的土資廠都通知"},{"start":14200.316,"end":14223.705,"text":"在他們沒有辦法符合相關規定之前他們是暫停收土方的那我想請問一下現在變成是全台就是有很多的工地因此而停工那我不曉得在我們公共工程的部分有沒有也受到影響或者您所了解這個狀況它有沒有一個辦法可以去做一個解決"},{"start":14224.935,"end":14249.627,"text":"基本上公共工程的部分比較少反正是建商的部分比較多很多不只是建商我知道只有民間的工地營造業民間營造業都受到影響這裡面有幾個問題就是說各縣市政府他理應當他地方的這些清運清除業者或土地廠聯合抵制的時候他政府機關應該要有"},{"start":14252.988,"end":14275.796,"text":"他自己公辦的土資場或公辦的戰事場他要設法去戰事或區劃現在都很少就是各縣市政府很少因為這裡面問題很複雜所以當這些業者聯合抵制的時候的確造成一些困擾所以我在呼籲說業者並不是沒有任何空間能夠來收這些東西"},{"start":14276.616,"end":14299.695,"text":"不是零 他還有空間只是價格問題所以我是呼籲這業者應該在這種情況之下應該來不要做這種聯合抵制的動作所以應該有多少就收多少那至於說這個裝GPS或現在不足的問題我剛才提過這裡牽涉到土地使用的許可"},{"start":14300.936,"end":14326.024,"text":"所以這個我們會整合各部位的意見來做改善也請工程會能夠做一個整合的意見我想這個除了土方之外包含的民間的工程還有當然希望是公共工程不要受影響因為時間關係我要趕快講就是我剛才也做了提案的說明那這次我們有關於政府採購法的"},{"start":14327.505,"end":14342.341,"text":"這個主要就是免除這個第一次一定要三家這個我沒有什麼太大的意見但是我長期在關心的就是我們很多政府的採購案長期以來為什麼有劣質的採購"},{"start":14343.462,"end":14365.22,"text":"就是因為我們這些被列為黑名單的這些廠商他們道高一尺 謀高一丈那當然你們這次修法去要阻止像這種就是今天我的A公司被你列為黑名單但是我用我的B公司 C公司你說你們要防堵"},{"start":14365.76,"end":14388.982,"text":"但是問題來囉 現在問題是有很多 比如說我們在那個國防部的這個去一個茶葉公司去標那個電腦 這個電腦維修的案子男的被起訴了 結果他就找他的女的合夥人這女的當然由此一說是什麼可能是女朋友啦 或者女性的朋友他在找他的朋友來做這個負責人"},{"start":14390.743,"end":14411.256,"text":"繼續的去採購喔繼續去採購然後另外呢就是這些一再被列黑名單的這些廠商繼續可以來採購政府工程合理嗎我們曾經有幫你們計算過你知道最高被列黑名單的次數達到不是6次耶66次"},{"start":14414.828,"end":14438.936,"text":"你這是什麼意思啊重考也不能重考那麼多次啊你已經被列為黑名單好幾十次最高到66次然後只要他時間屆滿他又是好漢一條啦要來繼續來標你政府的工程合理嗎完全不合理對不對還有國防部最扯中科院都列為黑名單拒網名單拒絕網來的黑名單"},{"start":14442.328,"end":14468.298,"text":"國防部照樣給他標你以為這是很扯嗎 沒有沒有最扯 只有更扯竟然呢 他不但繼續讓他標連他被起訴他都不知道已經被起訴了 年終被起訴已經被中科院列為黑名單的廠商被起訴到了年末國防部繼續把案子標給他"},{"start":14470.845,"end":14478.075,"text":"各位合理嗎我們的在我們眼皮子底下我們的政府採購可以這樣搞啊"},{"start":14478.803,"end":14500.328,"text":"我們也遵照委員在前兩個會期的要求提出政府採購法的修正草案那麼將這個公司或他代表人將來在成立的公司一併停權我看到你們這次有那第二個就是說有停權幾個案的我們這次把他停權時間要加計"},{"start":14501.748,"end":14513.234,"text":"不會說你同時停錢只是停個一部分而已我們是該停錢多久就把它加記起來我知道你們現在把它加記說到五年最高五年不同機關採購會不同時間來停權但是仍然會出現我剛才講說這種多次被停權它照樣來採購"},{"start":14525.581,"end":14546.221,"text":"那个中科院他是行政法人他可以不受政府采购法的施用我知道可是你今天不要跟我讲行政法人嘛中科院跟国防部的关系谁不知道对不对然后还会发生这样的状况大家就是没有办法接受所以我仍然希望你们能够支持我们也要评估对行政法人比较"},{"start":14547.202,"end":14568.762,"text":"什麼樣的行政法人可以不適用什麼樣行政法人他必須要適用或者是按照政府採購法的精神他應該有一些採購的準則這個我們會來精進這個其實我們是未來不要講行政法人行政法人就不需要遵守這個採購法你行政法人用的不是也是這個民脂民膏嗎"},{"start":14569.383,"end":14588.597,"text":"他也是百分之百是國防部的錢沒有錯啊也是完全是國防部的預算所以這一點我是支持但是基本上我這邊所提出來的三政條款我真的覺得要有一個次數你達到這個次數你就要永久除名不能再給他有重考的機會對不對我請副主委來說明好不好"},{"start":14595.621,"end":14613.87,"text":"我們事實上有很認真的去演繹這個問題那麼也在跟很多專業團體去討論通常一般來講是法律界比較認為說這種有點類似像有點像是判死刑的因為公司畢竟是人在"},{"start":14615.091,"end":14632.575,"text":"我們廢死到這種地步不是 因為公司的經營主體會變更他跟一般自然不大一樣就像現在上市公司他可能這一次是一個經營團體然後下次會變因為我時間到了我意思說不能讓他重考到這種地步我說已經被列黑名單66次他接下來過兩年好漢一條繼續來飆你覺得我們社會觀感如何納稅人能夠接受嗎你們能接受我們沒有辦法接受好不好"},{"start":14645.154,"end":14671.271,"text":"好這個還是希望你們能夠去那個檢討謝謝謝謝再請黃國昌委員繼續謝謝主席有請公共工程委員會主任委員麻煩有請國防部的官員國防部"},{"start":14679.351,"end":14702.352,"text":"國防部採購採購室發包處處長兩位好委員長在國會殿堂我非常痛恨官員說謊在各個民主先進國家官員在國會"},{"start":14703.959,"end":14731.354,"text":"背詢也好聽證也好說謊必須要面臨非常嚴重的法律責任但是台灣的民主非常的特別有一群奇怪的人說在國會說謊處罰是違憲的判決做出來了我們也都尊重留待給歷史跟後人去評價也讓台灣的國會成為獨步全球說謊沒有關係的國會"},{"start":14733.806,"end":14757.184,"text":"會造成什麼狀況呢說明一下這個案子我追非常久了納稅人支持國防支持國軍但是納稅人的錢不是拿去給不肖廠商胡搞瞎搞納稅人的錢去做抗彈纖維去做防彈背心"},{"start":14758.587,"end":14787.415,"text":"結果有廠商去用中國的劣質貨來魚目混珠治國軍弟兄的安危與不顧這種垃圾廠商我是深惡痛絕我深惡痛絕所以我開始追了兩個垃圾廠商一個叫大眾電腦得標0.7億一個是大同公司得標2.45億整個弊案被揭發了以後"},{"start":14788.615,"end":14817.047,"text":"整個弊案被揭發以後這個都判刑了啦所以不用再去扯什麼要尊重司法判決啦大眾電腦停權了停權三年我一直在追是大同的政商背景大股比較強是不是為什麼大同沒有一併停權我問國防部我問國防部"},{"start":14819.093,"end":14845.049,"text":"有一個特定的綠色媒體啊上面講說呢這個只有計算慈嚴罰啦沒收旅費保證金啊沒有停權是工程會調解未刊登政府採購公報這件事情我質詢過主委也回答過回去查了以後根本沒調解那根本沒調解問題就來了是這個綠色媒體在說謊"},{"start":14848.072,"end":14870.244,"text":"還是誰在說謊我問國防部國防部說那個綠色媒體的陳述不是事實消息來源也不是本部結果被人家打臉了被人家打臉了國防部傳給那個媒體的訊息都被人家PO出來了那現在問題來了來 請國防部請國防部"},{"start":14873.625,"end":14892.2,"text":"當初國防部誰決定含附給我的內容竟然敢說謊說這個訊息的來源不是國防部誰做這個決定的現在是國防部跟特定的媒體幫忙在幫大同公司為事嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":14895.177,"end":14923.119,"text":"報委員那個跟委員說明一下這個部分因為本部後來查證可能是時間點的落差那什麼叫時間點的落差胡說八道早就回了什麼叫時間點的落差那跟委員報告那這個部分確實國防部現在是在散佈假訊息嗎是嗎不是不是報委員這個部分就是經本部查證就是確實是由廣部提供的對啊"},{"start":14924.192,"end":14952.986,"text":"但沒有進行調解啊所以我才說嘛 國防部第一個欺騙我在國會說謊第二個國防部散佈的是百分之百的假訊息根本沒有進行調解所以因為進行調解 所以沒有停權這不是假訊息嗎這徹徹底底的假訊息啊請問國防部懲處了誰要不要懲處"},{"start":14954.336,"end":14976.787,"text":"委員這個部分我們會檢討如何檢討 用嘴巴檢討是 用嘴巴檢討報告委員這個部分這個部分已經在檢討中已經在檢討 檢討多久啦我質詢這件事情超過一年國防部檢討這件事情檢討到今天還在檢討要檢討到什麼時候檢討到2028年嗎還是要檢討到2032年要檢討多久"},{"start":14985.342,"end":15012.812,"text":"要檢討多久兩週內給我書面回覆誰要負責誰要對這個假訊息負責更重要的事情是什麼哪是因為調解所以沒有刊登政府採購公報實際上面的狀況是什麼能拖就拖 能混就混嘛能拖就拖 能混就混啊"},{"start":15013.888,"end":15039.631,"text":"大眾電腦的八股可能比較不強馬上就被停權了大同的八股很強拖了非常久拖到要刊登政府採購公報的時候採取權時效屆滿這不就是你們國防部放水嗎一直拖一直混混到採取權時效屆滿"},{"start":15041.67,"end":15053.435,"text":"沒有辦法刊登政府採購公報這個責任有在追究嗎有在追究嗎回去檢討 一樣兩個禮拜之內怎麼檢討的 要懲處誰書面回覆 可以嗎來 請主委"},{"start":15062.915,"end":15090.983,"text":"今天我看到你們政府採購法的修法我看了非常的詫異過去已經有用混的混到採儲權時效過了用中國的假布料來當我們阿兵哥的抗彈背心因為採儲權時效過了過到什麼過到根本沒有刊登政府採購公報依照現行法的規定採儲權的時效多久就五年"},{"start":15092.065,"end":15096.141,"text":"你們修成幾年兩年所以是怎麼樣放水的還不夠多"},{"start":15099.099,"end":15125.325,"text":"放水的還不夠多包括我那個有關那個採取權時效如果是行政法法的部分是三年啦是公法請求權才是五年是 沒錯所以一樣你還是縮短啊但是因為我看不啊覺得這些不肖廠商趕快讓他採取權時效過了就不用刊登政府採購公報了大家一起上下交鄉賊一起混是這樣嗎"},{"start":15127.495,"end":15153.771,"text":"是嗎我們是要促使機關要進鑿 不論說有喔 來來來 你看一下你隔壁的國防部叫促使機關進鑿喔促使機關要放水的時候比較好放啦不用拖那麼久 不用混那麼久啊混兩年就可以啦混兩年就可以了喔你們提這種修法出來 我老實跟你講啊四個字送給你們 丟人現眼丟人現眼"},{"start":15157.182,"end":15157.708,"text":"我在這邊公開講"},{"start":15160.024,"end":15186.62,"text":"採取權時效縮短成兩年台灣民眾黨黨團絕對不會接受跟委員再報告一下絕對不會接受目前的這個公法的採取權時效它是採客觀主義 它是以事實發聲有時候機關更快那我們現在講的是說你知悉以後兩年那當然你很難這樣直接去比較說到底哪一個比較長比較短我老實跟你講啦不要內行人講外行話啦什麼叫採取權時效"},{"start":15188.361,"end":15216.25,"text":"財主權時效是你法律上面不能夠繼續追溯嘛有因此而阻礙機關要更有效率更早去做嗎沒有啊沒有啊你不用延長機關如果真的想辦就趕快辦啊有人禁止你一個月就停權嗎兩個月就停權嗎沒有啊財主權時效就是開一個後門嘛放水嘛時間過了就放過去嘛現在讓我詫異的是什麼"},{"start":15217.358,"end":15244.731,"text":"差異的是你們修政府採購法是把後門打開一點我再說一次啦這件事情交給社會大眾公平台灣民眾黨立法院黨團的立場很清楚我絕對不會同意你們把它縮短好 謝謝來 接下來羅明才 羅明才 羅明才委員不在請林淑芬委員質詢"},{"start":15255.018,"end":15274.725,"text":"謝謝主席 是不是請我們陳主委陳靜德主委請委員早主委早 今天的修法可以說是大修那你現在大概就是說舊的法律大概70年前的阿嬤級的法律"},{"start":15275.427,"end":15296.872,"text":"那再來就是說第一次決標就流標的70%以上的案件那我現在講說你們又拿出那個機關買機票還要三加這種東西不合時宜然後舉了說資訊充分 電子化了那我們配套會有等標期延長等等"},{"start":15297.932,"end":15313.507,"text":"其實我不是跟你談採購機票或小額的各個機關的小額狀況我現在要跟你討論的是類似三階現在三階四階整個巨額採購裡面的疑似招標的黑幕"},{"start":15316.089,"end":15317.81,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們看到幾個台灣巨額採購尤其是營造產業裡面的巨額採購從三接的弊案然後再轉折再影射到四接兩大營造廠的鬥爭看得人家眼花繚亂"},{"start":15338.32,"end":15360.663,"text":"那我現在講台灣營造產業巨額採購在大型的巨額採購而且越來越流行原本可以分標的政府都很多刻意併標故意併標那因為政府併標的金額動輒數百億所以變成符合資格的廠商加數屈指可數"},{"start":15361.744,"end":15379.731,"text":"在這種狀況裡面全台灣就那幾家大型營造公司有資格而已那我們知道營造業是勞力密集也是資本密集的產業集中大標所以現在的現況是什麼動輒數百億你說阿嬤級的採購法可是營造業法也是歐巴桑級的採購法"},{"start":15387.054,"end":15390.135,"text":"在這種狀況裡面你們在這種狀況裡面大型上百億數百億的採購事實上這幾家有資格的因為資本而限制無折承主委時代開放成淨值的這個開放條件你們也要把它關起來的話"},{"start":15404.719,"end":15429.811,"text":"在這種狀況就是那幾間全台灣就是那幾間但是市場上這幾家寡占的公司大型的營造公司每一個手上都案件滿滿的這幾家寡占的公司的工作量都幾乎都在飽和的狀況所以他們沒有急迫性需要去立即投標"},{"start":15431.013,"end":15444.014,"text":"所以你現在看到的說三家流標我告訴你我們明明知道這些數百億的巨額的不是三家流標也不是一家流標來投標的是零"},{"start":15446.417,"end":15452.604,"text":"所以我們大家內行人也不要講外行話三家投標留標兩個禮拜以後一家來投標就可以開標了差兩禮拜十四天你說這個候選人會比較好大家都說第一次留標率70%很高"},{"start":15468.8,"end":15471.483,"text":"不要騙外行的14天後一斤就可以開錶這才是真正的事實但是巨額採購的問題不是一斤巨額採購的問題是沒半斤"},{"start":15484.415,"end":15500.757,"text":"因為我現在要跟你講主委在你把併標可以拆標的你把它併標變成超大再加上你的營造業法再加上你從嚴去處理的話超大巨額的公共工程流標的問題它不是效率的問題"},{"start":15501.818,"end":15507.901,"text":"而是你來看三接的故事還包括設計 預算 規格 工期的規定或是並標市場造成的壟斷還有寡占所衍生的問題接下來是我問了AI Check GPT"},{"start":15520.527,"end":15541.566,"text":"因為寡占對營造業的市場結構它導致了大者恆大 小者消亡它會加速市場集中化因為它必須要雄厚的資本業績技術關係網絡的大型廠商而且他們在取得資格他們在制定"},{"start":15542.707,"end":15571.081,"text":"規格的時候取得優勢影響規格設計所以他們大型巨額的這些廠商可以更能承受單獨投標的風險跟成本而在這個過程中小型專業的廠商更容易被邊緣化當標案導向唯一的廠商決標時一架相對能力是差的中小廠商更沒有辦法他們會被系統性的排除在外"},{"start":15571.741,"end":15584.172,"text":"而被迫成為大廠的下游分包商會失去了直接承攬公共工程的機會會導致中間的企業消失市場的活力下降然後這個是對營造業的業者的市場"},{"start":15586.994,"end":15605.183,"text":"如果對於社會來講它會做什麼它會形成區域或領域性的寡占和壟斷在特定工程的領域淺頓的 電廠的高科技的廠房或偏遠地區有能力承作的廠商本來就少"},{"start":15605.783,"end":15621.77,"text":"如果你這樣子改革下去我現在講的都是大型的營造的環境既有的少數的廠商更容易透過技術或資格壁壘長久壟斷該類工程新進者難以挑戰"},{"start":15623.23,"end":15641.363,"text":"現在已經會發生了已經有部分現象發生了可能會出現分區治理和分業治理的默契也就是甲廠商不願意不會投入乙廠商的標乙廠商也不會介入甲廠商的勢力範圍形成一種隱性的卡特"},{"start":15642.344,"end":15661.175,"text":"我們都知道黃昌做北部比如說紅華做南部也不會去侵占個人的領域啦你去看三階四階就知道了在這種狀況裡面還會意志創新和技術提升因為在缺乏競爭的環境下"},{"start":15662.816,"end":15683.118,"text":"得標的廠商要用新工法新材料新技術來提升效率還是要維持現有的利潤高的做法作為最優先的選擇這個我們不得而知啦好那對公共工程的具體負面影響是什麼我這個都是問chat GPT的啦"},{"start":15684.929,"end":15711.758,"text":"第一個工程成本顯著上升寡占市場最直接的後果就是缺乏價格競爭廠商報價會趨近於政府可接受的最高價格就是底價而不是市場競爭下的合理價格所以造成我們政府公共財政支出將大幅增加排擠其他建設預算"},{"start":15713.438,"end":15729.242,"text":"這個案子在三階四階大家會生會癮的時候我們就看到了很很我不曉得啦看到什麼大家去想像吧然後再來品質和效率的雙重風險品質的風險因為"},{"start":15732.987,"end":15741.672,"text":"你三接 黃昌四接 我要公信我七接 東北拿起來公信又夾洪華譬如說 大家都自己要愛的都頭有刀 大家都鼓勵其實本本就好大家在打問號 是不是這樣子我剛剛講的是人家的問號所以沒有競爭對手的比較難以判斷出廠商提出的技術方案是否為最佳"},{"start":15761.323,"end":15785.239,"text":"沒有競爭對手一家投標就開標了屢約期間廠商因為缺乏比較基準和競爭威脅可能降低施工標準資深偷工減料的誘因好那我們要講你打著效率的這個口號那在效率的風險獨佔廠商可能缺乏按時完工的急迫性供其延宕的風險增加"},{"start":15787.46,"end":15805.605,"text":"機關因為找不到其他可替代的廠商談判和監督的籌碼大減這是不是現實?這是不是現象?看起來好像也很多台灣的公共工程界也有這種現象就沒有人要裱啊他就說你要再蓋啊 工具要再蓋啊我才要來裱啊沒半斤不是一斤沒辦法開裱的問題是沒半斤"},{"start":15814.628,"end":15832.522,"text":"因為大家都講 他們的容量有限嘛所以它有一個問題的風險在公共工程上 它會too big to fail大到不能倒的系統風險少數大型廠商 壟斷多數重大工程你看我剛才講的幾間 看不看得到幾百億也幾千億的工程在手上"},{"start":15837.265,"end":15854.338,"text":"如果其中一家發生財務危機公安事件或者是經營不善將導致多個重大公共公司同時停擺對國家建設和經濟造成衝擊所以大道不能倒然後還有一個資深更隱蔽更穩固的貪腐結構"},{"start":15856.94,"end":15881.061,"text":"在寡占市場的這個狀況裡面使得廠商跟官員民代之間更容易形成長期的穩固的政商共生關係利益輸送的單一標案的合作它會升級成長期的領域的保護和分潤查緝上更為困難再來第五個"},{"start":15882.702,"end":15903.334,"text":"計劃風險和彈性會盡失機關在規劃工程的時候會擔心只有一家投標而被迫向既有寡占的廠商的技術和能力傾斜限制工程設計的想像和突破機關的選擇權跟主導權實質上是移交給市場上的寡占的人"},{"start":15904.295,"end":15908.437,"text":"所以在這裡我是要跟你講說我們知道有很多小型的採購案的確真的沒有辦法沒有辦法三家來比價來標都沒有 其他都沒有但是也不要忘了"},{"start":15919.682,"end":15939.072,"text":"在巨額數百億上百億的大型採購裡面就是有我剛才講的問題所以政策的制定者你必須意識到這不僅是關係到提升效率的工具這一個修法更是具有強大的市場形塑力量的槓桿"},{"start":15940.052,"end":15952.626,"text":"在考慮取消加速門檻的同時你必須推出反壟斷要保護競爭的強力配套比如說你要嚴格的執行公平交易法在營造業的聯合行為強大"},{"start":15955.689,"end":15984.668,"text":"或者是說你強制要幫要將大型的標案拆分保障中小企業參與的部分項目或者是前述所有的強化透明度和監督的機制否則長期來看是弊大於利所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的希望這個不是技術性的調整所以是政府制度採購公平性的根本的動搖如果配套真的不夠的話"},{"start":15985.909,"end":16010.714,"text":"如果全面實施 程序面搞成這樣子將會淪為全面掩護黑箱的合法外衣如果你沒有把底價的審查要更嚴格評選委員要更公開化事後成效要追蹤 沒有同步入法那麼這一個修法可能會被解讀成事項"},{"start":16012.494,"end":16032.561,"text":"這個特殊利益團體的妥協的一個部分所以我在這裡在最後抱歉了主席我再講最後一個第一個就是說有幾個問題按一旅因為現在綁標犯罪你給他修修成不違法了"},{"start":16033.888,"end":16049.106,"text":"那消除了培標的成本那變相的降低了勾結的難度當培標不再有成本是不是反而增加業者勾結的可能性我現在不是針對我們巨額了我現在談的是地方政府也有可能"},{"start":16049.907,"end":16067.113,"text":"大家都知道地方政府的採購綁標一直都是大問題所以在這種狀況裡面你公開閱覽或公告計畫或者是審標期等標期再加長可是呢技術性的綁標難查含產效應"},{"start":16070.074,"end":16088.081,"text":"同業知道了也不敢舉發再來就是內定廠商他本來就跟機關溝通好久好久了外界的廠商看到了你再增加10天的等標什麼標他也沒辦法因為他不知道材料夠不夠他不知道他的成本有沒有反應"},{"start":16088.701,"end":16115.231,"text":"所以人已經喘好久在等了你是看到這開始不用說也是有這個落差再來平權委員會的人為操作的空間價格競爭市場價格競爭機制的全面崩解所以沒有審慎的評估而且要補齊這個制度性房幣的配套真的是非常非常的危險所以如何防止這個"},{"start":16116.82,"end":16123.384,"text":"規格綁標如何抑制價格壟斷在這種狀況裡面你需不需要引入外部的專業評估或者是你的規格綁標要不要強制由獨立第三方還要進行規格審查你如何防範微標跟不為投標的設計你的監督機制有沒有可能微標行為從組織三家去培標變成勸退或恐嚇其他潛在的投標者"},{"start":16147.901,"end":16171.602,"text":"然後有沒有建立投標議場的分析機制那你如何維持市場的競爭和產業平衡有沒有保障中小型或新進廠商參與的積極措施有沒有定期監測營造市場的集中度的指標而現在大型採購巨額採購上百億的採購的確就超級集中啊"},{"start":16172.362,"end":16188.15,"text":"還有透明度跟客責和救濟只有一家投標的案件他的完整的招標的文件評審過程的記錄決標的理由還有價格的分析是不是要用更高的標準主動公開"},{"start":16189.511,"end":16217.621,"text":"公務員在辦理只有一家絕標投標時他的絕標的價格有沒有明顯高於市場黃金或後續的履約品質低落這些公務人員在辦理這個程序的時候這個承辦的公務人員的行政責任是不是會加重要不要加重有沒有更明確的課則的條款那有沒有退場的機制應變的和退場的機制這個制度"},{"start":16219.301,"end":16234.936,"text":"老實說我講的這個三家變一家只是其中一條啦其中一個你整個五十條裡面問題重重不是只有這一個那因為時間有限所以我現在只能談這一點還有其他還有很多"},{"start":16236.258,"end":16253.153,"text":"所以主委你要不要談一看現行的超大型的上百億的巨額的採購營造業市場是不是就是這樣子那他不是一家也不是沒有效率大家都知道第一屆要三天來標第二屆兩星期後一天就可以開標了不要再說了"},{"start":16258.658,"end":16268.446,"text":"沒效率 沒有 不是這個問題現在的問題是 他們都吃飽飽 不愛飽你都去餓 只有這幾天有足夠這幾天要來飽就說 你要再給我提加錢 否則我不做加工期 否則我不做加價格 否則我不做到底是什麼 到底是怎麼一回事 不知道一直不斷併標再併標不是的零標來投標的是零 不是一家"},{"start":16287.998,"end":16290.26,"text":"是不是這個問題3階 4階 7階好 林委員 時間的關係我們是不是 主委 幾位都不用講喔謝謝指教 我們會參考"},{"start":16307.386,"end":16331.053,"text":"我說的不是效率問題不在於效率的確也有需要的也有需要這樣開放的但是在這個領域我講的這個領域這樣子搞下去問題很嚴重所以這個是我也不會說問題又很多主席你這麼多白白的謝謝好 謝謝未來豬條審查的時候我們也歡迎大家都一起來豬條審查謝謝"},{"start":16334.312,"end":16359.038,"text":"好 接下來鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在 林倩琦 林倩琦林倩琦委員不在 游皓游皓游皓委員不在 請葉元之委員自選麻煩請主委 謝謝陳菁的主委請"},{"start":16367.169,"end":16395.788,"text":"委員長主委好早上的時候因為現在總預算一直沒有過當然在野黨也有我們的立場我們是認為說行政院應該要按照三讀通過的法律來編列預算行政院是說他覺得違憲他不能編但我們會覺得違不違憲不是行政院說的算法律既然生效就應該依法編列所以現在卡住了行政院也沒有要退的意思現在行政院一直說法是說會影響到很多新興計畫"},{"start":16397.529,"end":16417.46,"text":"因為例行性的不會影響去年兩兆九千多億他現在都可以用現在是新興計畫會受到影響那我早上是聽你跟應該是民進黨委員有一個對話是說如果新興計畫沒辦法執行的話部會可以個別把新興計畫送到立法院如果立法院可以同意的話還是可以執行是這樣嗎"},{"start":16418.38,"end":16441.525,"text":"它是預算法裡面就是說新興計畫是如果總預算沒有審過新興計畫是不能執行但是呢如果立法院同意是不再此限那這個指的是行政院對立法院的關係對所以新興計畫如果要先檢討是可以的是不是就是看立法院要不要同意要同意嘛所以行政院如果認為新興計畫真的很重要的話它可以針對新興計畫個別送過來嘛對吧"},{"start":16444.766,"end":16464.324,"text":"不是特別就是這個新興計畫上立法院如果同意使用是可以的但是新興計畫你如果其他的沒有辦法執行會面臨一些困難所以如果是你的話你會建議行政院怎麼做如果他真的認為新興計畫這麼重要的話我早是認為中華民國立法院"},{"start":16465.435,"end":16484.555,"text":"很多年了很少有總預算沒有省到下年度了中華民國這麼多年了也沒有行政院不依法執行編列預算的這個是很例外的一種現象所以我只是覺得大家不要利用這個時間在吵因為吵不完大家各有立場如果你問我我當然覺得應該依法編列預算"},{"start":16485.936,"end":16503.19,"text":"那只要他願意依法編列預算這個就解了嘛那在他不願意依法行政的情況下如果新興計畫你的意思是說他可以個別如果立法院同意的話新興計畫可以來致用是這個意思嗎預算要是附委的才能審查審查了才能夠發現有沒有依法"},{"start":16505.206,"end":16515.897,"text":"你現在就是沒有依法我不在這邊跟你吵這個啦因為這個吵三分鐘都吵不完啦因為這個在這個大家都已經很了解了啦那我現在只是問說如果卡在這邊那因為有別的委員問你新興計畫的問題嘛你說其實還有一個解套方式嗎我說新興計畫就以治水來調適非常好"},{"start":16526.749,"end":16553.196,"text":"我們現在就看行政院就是說就是要卡在這邊他不認為這個新計畫很重要還是怎麼樣我們看行政院的態度就像那個軍購案1.25兆現在行政院或總統一直認為那個很重要可是他覺得很重要他送來條例就只有七條就寫得不清不楚如果他認為很重要我認為他應該會寫得很詳細但是就隨便寫寫所以這個行政院跟總統到底有沒有認為這個預算很重要"},{"start":16554.176,"end":16573.633,"text":"還是只是嘴巴講講還是說只是把它拿來當作一個政治口水來噴在野黨的一個工具我全民都在看那我跟你請教一下那個標案的問題我想問一下主委像有一些採購案評分單上面如果說有一些採購是不是有時候會要求這個廠商時機"},{"start":16575.194,"end":16592.549,"text":"譬如說有些廠商如果沒有接過政府標案的話他還不能夠來投標有的時候是這樣嘛對吧這是各採購機關他可以去訂定他的這個投標廠各採購機關當然是各採購機關但因為您是主管採購的最高機關我們只管他的採購有沒有合乎採購法"},{"start":16594.111,"end":16610.09,"text":"資格問題是各機關去認定可是因為你是最高的機關如果當你看到有一些機關它的做法可能會影響到公共品質或是採購的優劣的話你也不能坐視不管我們也是依法來管我們也是要依法來管"},{"start":16610.53,"end":16630.941,"text":"但是你不能做事不管你現在做到的都是最低標準法律的但是你都沒有想要好還要更好嗎你的態度就覺得說你做得不好但是好像也沒違法不管我的事但是國人對你們期待不是只有這樣我希望說尤其是你還是政務委員國人對這個國防預算的期待也跟大家不一樣"},{"start":16632.161,"end":16659.037,"text":"國人是多少百分之幾的國人對 你去問看看百分之幾的國人國防預算重不重要我們對於國防預算我們也希望說我們也希望總統跟行政院可以提出更詳細的說明不是這個七條不是 總統現在我在質詢你採購的問題你不要扯東扯西好不好是你先說國防預算我沒有 我現在在講採購是你先說國防預算我現在在講廠商時機我現在在講廠商時機我也是回答你我也是回答你時機你不要每次來都來吵架好不好"},{"start":16660.916,"end":16684.322,"text":"你在吵架還是在被尋的啊我沒有跟任何人吵架啊我現在在跟你講說現在如果有一些單位他在採購的時候沒有訂出廠商時機導致於這個採購可能會品質不好那正在工程委員會的立場是什麼這個是你不瞭解政務採購法但是主委你的意思是說那是歸各採購單位這是你不瞭解政務採購法我很瞭解我跟你講個實際狀況採購機關有他的要求嗎"},{"start":16688.343,"end":16706.088,"text":"我們在我的選區板橋有一個郵局本來講說去年年底就要開幕後來現在一直拖又要拖到兩三個月原因是什麼原因是那個廠商室內裝修廠商一直出包所以廠商過去的時機他跟政府能不能配合他能不能履約這個不重要嗎"},{"start":16707.068,"end":16728.157,"text":"如果這個廠商沒有提出一個他優良的時機會導致他這個合約能不能夠履行嘛就這麼簡單嘛那當他沒有辦法履行的話他延誤的是誰延誤的是我們一般的民眾使用郵局的權利嘛所以站在公共工程的角度我只是舉這個例子所以站在工程委員會的角度當你看到各個機關如果他訂了採購的標準"},{"start":16729.477,"end":16750.21,"text":"可能會影響事後履約本來你本來就是應該行政指導啊而不是說定一個最低的標準你只要沒有違法都不關我的事你都不會想說站在民眾角度怎麼讓公共工程可以做得更好這個採購的指引我們都有啦當然是希望機關是嘛 那今天為什麼會找你討論這個事情是因為之前國防部就是很奇怪嘛"},{"start":16751.328,"end":16764.348,"text":"不是嗎是不是你叫國防部上來回答你的問題今天國防部的事情大家都討論我現在不是那今天這個問題如果是國防部會發生其他單位不會發生嗎其他單位不會發生我們討論原則性欠提嘛"},{"start":16768.172,"end":16783.723,"text":"主席我今天我要請誰回答是工程會備詢的人可以來決定的嗎我現在問你原則性的問題嘛我問你原則性的問題不是啦我沒有看過那麼浩漫的官員啦好 葉委員那個陳主委我想這一整天了"},{"start":16784.827,"end":16810.257,"text":"一樣我們還是重申交通委員會我們就是針對議題來解決問題那等一下再請我們葉委員再持續質詢那我也要求陳主委因為備詢官員與否回答是委員的權益所以委員有指定哪一個官員回答的時候再請那官員上來那但是也拜託葉委員就是說您的問題把比較聚焦一點讓主委這邊可以針對您的問題來回答"},{"start":16811.5,"end":16832.282,"text":"我的問題很聚焦啦我問題問廠商時機他扯到軍購預算了不是故意來拖時間的嗎繼續好不好 謝謝我現在我的問題我想請教一下譬如說以國防部來講我是舉那個例子我們討論一個通案如果要政府採購採購一個巨額的採購但是資本額他只有定20萬這樣合不合理"},{"start":16833.459,"end":16855.594,"text":"我不曉得什麼假設的案它實際上發生的案每一個機構他當然要訂相關的採購廠商的資格包括時機包括資本額包括有多少專業的人力能不能履約這個當然要訂這個通案是要訂至於國防部這個案子為什麼這樣最能夠說明的就是國防部我不能代他說明"},{"start":16856.074,"end":16870.728,"text":"不是我問一下主委你認為這樣子資格標因為他第一關是資格標嘛他第二個他按照顧立雄的說法他是說只要能夠語約就好反正他不能語約就扣他的錢是不是資格標我不清楚啦你們是選擇性招標還是還是公開招標20萬當然是定在資格裡面嘛"},{"start":16874.071,"end":16892.71,"text":"那個不叫做選擇性招標不是 我沒有說選擇性招標我說那個資本額20萬他有沒有訂一個資本額的標準在那邊資格上面有沒有要求說資本額一定要多少所以這個應該要請國防部來說明好 那請他說明我等一下通案的我再來問你請教好不好可以國防部署長請"},{"start":16901.44,"end":16910.567,"text":"委員好 有關這個案子是我們這個火藥原物料的案子那這個案子我們為了廣徵商源我們國內確實沒有廠商可以做"},{"start":16911.414,"end":16940.447,"text":"那這個案子其實就是賣方市場那我們為了廣徵商業你資本你有沒有定資本的標準沒有定任何資本的標準所以他資本額五萬十萬二十萬通通都可以只要他能夠提出能夠履約都可以來標所以我們以後面的履約的作為來約束廠商那如果他沒辦法履約你就扣他款嘛對嘛這就會造成我剛剛講的嘛會延誤的狀況但是我們二十年來三十八個案子沒有任何一個案子沒有辦法履約的狀況"},{"start":16941.147,"end":16960.451,"text":"那是過去的時機嘛我講的是說我們現在講通案嘛我剛剛為什麼舉那個郵局的例子就是說如果說你在採購的過程當中你標準訂的太寬很可能就會造成比如他沒辦法預約會影響到人民的權利嘛我講的是這件事情嘛我跟委員報告郵局的裝修跟買國防彈尿是兩回事"},{"start":16960.911,"end":16990.362,"text":"我知道是兩回事但是你採購東西也是要看廠商的時機我舉一個例子等一下 主委等一下好不好那時候疫情的時候衛福部也因為很緊急所以要買快篩後來不是也有一個小吃店轉型變成快篩公司可以進口快篩結果後來這個小吃店因為被踢爆說他之前是小吃店轉的他說他不接這個單子結果原來被人家發現他以前賣過假口罩"},{"start":16991.468,"end":17013.877,"text":"所以如果他那時候接了這個單子也跟衛福部簽約了可是事後沒有辦法履約他其實就會影響到這個快篩的進口嘛所以廠商時機當然會影響不管是公共工程採購勞務採購或貿易都是會影響的嘛現在我們討論的就是說那廠商的資格是要那麼寬"},{"start":17016.131,"end":17035.653,"text":"還是其實掌上資格是可以定的比較嚴格一點而不是只是靠事後他能不能履約來處分他他能夠履約就阿彌陀佛很棒他不能履約我再扣他的履約保證金但那個就是會造成採購時程的延誤我現在討論的是這件事情所以主委你的態度是什麼"},{"start":17036.567,"end":17061.588,"text":"你覺得各單位應不應該即便是這種貿易的你要講通案但是舉的例子卻是很特殊的個案採購國防的彈藥疫情的時候採購疫苗這個都不是隨便街上就買得到的那個都是賣方市場所以這個通案跟這兩個個案事實上有不盡然的關係所以我們有些是做特殊考量我是只能這樣回答你的疑問了"},{"start":17062.267,"end":17076.481,"text":"所以你還是覺得說像國防部他的這個採購還包括還有一個茶葉行可以做電腦設備跟治安的維護他的資本額10萬塊你覺得你這種問法我沒辦法做任何回覆為什麼"},{"start":17077.784,"end":17100.119,"text":"不是 因為這個採購案我沒有講得很詳細採購案我沒有講得很詳細的原因是因為這個案子已經是國人很關注就工程會主管來講 你在議政府採購吧那剛剛講的那個茶葉行咧他就是做那個資安軟體的服務然後資本額10萬塊那這個是不是賣方市場是哪一個機關 我來問問看哪一個機關國安部為什麼要這樣定情 要說明嘛"},{"start":17102.901,"end":17126.455,"text":"沒有啦主委我為什麼沒有因為第一個私訊時間有限第二個我舉的這幾個案子都是大家討論國人媒體討論很多的例子有茶葉嘛茶葉這些是國防部嘛有疫苗嘛茶葉這些是國防部嘛你是把最特殊的案子來指責來指責一通案嘛是不是茶葉行這個案子你有聽說嗎我不知道你不知道"},{"start":17128.157,"end":17136.043,"text":"你不知道茶葉行做國防部電腦軟體思案的這個你沒有聽過不是啦沒關係啦因為我為什麼沒有針對每個個案說很詳細因為我剛剛講的茶葉的或者是彈藥這些"},{"start":17145.007,"end":17168.027,"text":"這個都是國人討論非常久的案子那今天因為主委您來您是主管公共工程所以想請教你的意見就是說像類似這樣的案子站在主管機關角度你的看法如何但是因為你我早上已經說明了你居然講說我們希望你說不知道居然你都不知道然後問你 你就說去問各單位"},{"start":17168.787,"end":17192.343,"text":"這就是公共工程會主委兼政務委員對國人所討論非常久的採購案的態度一問三都知所以然後我問你你就來跟我吵架我問他主委那趙偉也站起來了我相信剛剛直播大家看見因為這個茶葉行大家都知道只有你不知道你說你不知道剛剛是你講你不知道沒有關係的態度就是這樣嘛那就這樣啦 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":17199.933,"end":17224.725,"text":"徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員不在登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢 作以下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員尤昊 徐欣盈所提書面諮詢列入記錄並且刊登公報三 委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料及未及答覆部分請行政院公共工程委員會及相關單位盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":17226.472,"end":17238.199,"text":"針對本次會議做以下決議討論事項個案均另定期繼續審查本次會議結束現在散會謝謝辛苦"},{"start":17254.702,"end":17255.542,"text":"好,大家上桌"},{"start":17275.572,"end":17289.428,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17296.103,"end":17301.168,"text":"自己還說自己還說自己還說自己還說"}]}},{"id":"166814","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166814","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58e0d23a1429880f583011a53eea80ce160f44abb379efbafa9f750fbe189a9eba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:03:38 - 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謝謝"},{"start":13.207,"end":38.07,"text":"委員長主委好 早上的時候因為現在總預算一直沒有過嘛那當然在野黨也有我們的立場啦我們是認為說行政院應該要按照三讀通過的法律來編列預算那行政院是說他覺得違憲他不能編但我們會覺得違不違憲不是行政院說的算嘛那法律既然生下就應該依法編列所以現在卡住了那行政院也沒有要退的意思"},{"start":38.82,"end":63.503,"text":"那現在行政院一直說法是說那會影響到很多新興計畫因為例行性的不會影響嘛去年兩兆九千多億他現在都可以用嘛現在是新興計畫會受到影響那我早上是聽你跟應該是民進黨委員有一個對話是說如果新興計畫沒辦法執行的話部會可以個別把新興計畫送到立法院如果立法院可以同意的話還是可以執行是這樣嗎"},{"start":64.424,"end":80.907,"text":"他是預算法裡面就是說新興計劃是如果總預算沒有審過新興計劃是不能執行但是呢如果立法院同意是不再此限那這個指的是行政院對立法院的關係所以新興計劃如果先解套是可以的是不是"},{"start":81.528,"end":110.364,"text":"就是看立法院要不要同意所以行政院如果認為新興計畫真的很重要的話他可以針對新興計畫個別送過來嗎不是個別就是這個新興計畫上立法院如果同意使用是可以的但是有新興計畫你如果其他的沒有辦法執行會面臨一些困難所以如果是你的話你會建議行政院怎麼做如果他真的認為新興計畫這麼重要的話我早是認為中華民國立法院"},{"start":111.476,"end":130.596,"text":"很多年了很少有總預算沒有省到下年度了中華民國這麼多年了也沒有行政院不依法執行編列預算的這個是很例外的一種現象所以我是覺得大家不要利用這個時間在吵因為吵不完大家各有立場如果你問我我當然覺得應該依法編列預算"},{"start":131.977,"end":149.231,"text":"那只要他願意依法編列預算這個就解了嘛那在他不願意依法行政的情況下如果新興計畫你的意思是說他可以個別如果立法院同意的話新興計畫可以來致用是這個意思嗎預算要是附委的才能審查審查了才能夠發現有沒有依法"},{"start":151.247,"end":161.938,"text":"你現在就是沒有依法我不在這邊跟你吵這個啦因為這個吵三分鐘都吵不完啦因為這個在這個大家都已經很了解了啦那我現在只是問說如果卡在這邊那因為有別的委員問你新興計畫的問題嘛你說其實還有一個解套方式嗎我說新興計畫就以汽水來調適非常好"},{"start":172.79,"end":199.237,"text":"我們現在就看行政院就是說就是要卡在這邊他不認為這個新計劃很重要還是怎麼樣我們看行政院的態度就像那個軍購案1.25兆現在行政院或總統一直認為那個很重要可是他覺得很重要他送來條例就只有七條就寫得不清不楚如果他認為很重要我認為他應該會寫得很詳細但是就隨便寫寫所以這個行政院跟總統到底有沒有認為這個預算很重要"},{"start":200.217,"end":220.074,"text":"還是只是嘴巴講講還是說只是把它拿來當作一個政治口水來噴在野黨的一個工具我全民都在看那我跟你請教一下那個標案的問題我想問一下主委像有一些採購案評分單上面如果說有一些採購是不是有時候會要求這個廠商時機"},{"start":221.235,"end":238.587,"text":"譬如說有些廠商如果沒有接過政府標案的話他還不能夠來投標有的時候是這樣嘛對吧這是各採購機關他可以去訂定他的這個投標廠各採購機關當然是各採購機關但因為您是主管採購的最高機關我們只管他的採購有沒有合乎採購法"},{"start":240.168,"end":254.233,"text":"資格問題是各機關去認定可是因為你是最高的機關如果當你看到有一些機關它的做法可能會影響到公共品質或是採購的優劣的話你也不能做事不管我們也是依法來管"},{"start":256.574,"end":276.985,"text":"但是你不能做事不管你現在做到的都是最低標準法律的但是你都沒有想要好還要更好嗎你的態度就覺得說你做得不好但是好像也沒違法不管我的事但是國人對你們期待不是只有這樣我希望說尤其是你還是政務委員國人對這個國防預算的期待也跟大家不一樣"},{"start":278.205,"end":305.055,"text":"國人是多少百分之幾的國人對 你去問看看百分之幾的國人國防預算重不重要我們對於國防預算我們也希望說我們也希望總統跟行政院可以提出更詳細的說明不是這個七條不是 總統現在我在質詢你採購的問題你不要扯東扯西好不好是你先說國防預算我沒有 我現在在講採購是你先說國防預算我現在在講廠商時機我現在在講廠商時機我有跟你講國防預算嗎我也是回答你時機你不要每次來都來吵架好不好"},{"start":306.957,"end":328.403,"text":"你在吵架還是在被尋的啊我沒有跟任何人吵架我現在在跟你講說現在如果有一些單位他在採購的時候沒有訂出廠商時機導致於這個採購可能會品質不好那站在工程委員會的立場是什麼這個是你不了解政務採購法但是主委你的意思是說那是歸各採購單位跟你沒有 這沒有我很了解我跟你講個實際狀況採購機關有他的要求嗎"},{"start":334.384,"end":352.129,"text":"我們在我的選區板橋有一個郵局本來講說去年年底就要開幕後來現在一直拖又要拖到兩三個月原因是什麼原因是那個廠商室內裝修廠商一直出包所以廠商過去的時機他跟政府能不能配合他能不能履約這個不重要嗎"},{"start":353.109,"end":374.2,"text":"如果這個廠商沒有提出一個他優良的時機會導致他這個合約能不能夠履行嘛這這麼簡單嘛那當他沒有辦法履行的話他延誤的是誰延誤的是我們一般的民眾使用郵局的權利嘛所以站在公共工程的角度我只是舉這個例子所以站在工程委員會的角度當你看到各個機關如果他定的採購的標準"},{"start":375.501,"end":396.234,"text":"可能會影響事後履約本來你本來就是應該行政指導啊而不是說定一個最低的標準你只要沒有違法都不關我的事你都不會想說在民眾角度怎麼讓公共工程可以做得更好這個採購的指引我們都有啦當然是希望機關是嘛 那今天為什麼會找你討論這個事情是因為之前國防部就是很奇怪嘛"},{"start":397.369,"end":410.669,"text":"不是嗎 一個是不是你請國防部上來回答你的問題今天國防部的事情大家都討論我現在不是那今天這個問題如果是國防部會發生其他單位不會發生嗎其他單位不會發生我們現在討論原則性欠提嘛"},{"start":414.213,"end":429.761,"text":"主席 我今天我要請誰回答是工程會備詢的人可以來決定的嗎我現在問你原則性的問題嘛我問你原則性的問題不是啦 我沒有看過那麼浩漫的官員啦好 葉委員 那個陳主委我想這一整天了"},{"start":430.868,"end":456.298,"text":"一樣我們還是重申交通委員會我們就是針對議題來解決問題那等一下再請我們葉委員再持續質詢那我也要求陳主委因為備詢官員與否回答是委員的權益所以委員有指定哪一個官員回答的時候再請那官員上來那但是也拜託葉委員就是說您的問題把比較聚焦一點讓主委這邊可以針對您的問題來回答"},{"start":457.541,"end":478.306,"text":"我問題很聚焦啦我問題問廠商時機他扯到軍購預算了我這故意來拖時間的嘛我現在我的問題我想請教一下譬如說以國防部來講我是舉那個例子我們討論一個通案如果要政府採購採購一個巨額的採購但是資本額他只有定20萬這樣合不合理"},{"start":479.5,"end":501.634,"text":"我不曉得什麼假設的案它實際上發生的案每一個機構它當然要訂相關的採購廠商的資格包括時機包括資本額包括有多少專業的人力能不能履約這個當然要訂這個通案是要訂至於國防部這個案子為什麼這樣最能夠說明的就是國防部我不能代他說明"},{"start":502.114,"end":516.808,"text":"不是我問一下主委你認為這樣子資格標因為他第一關是資格標嘛他第二個他按照顧立雄的說法他是說只要能夠語約就好啊反正他不能語約就扣他的錢是不是資格標我不清楚啦你們是選擇性招標還是還是公開招標20萬當然是定在資格裡面嘛"},{"start":520.111,"end":542.424,"text":"那個不叫做選擇性招標啊不是我沒有說選擇性招標我說那個資本額20萬他有沒有訂一個資本額的標準在那邊嘛資格上面有沒有要求說資本額一定要多少所以這個應該要請國防部來說明啦好那請他說明我等一下通案的我再來問你請教好不好可以可以國防部署長請"},{"start":547.481,"end":556.618,"text":"委員好 有關這個案子是我們這個火藥原物料的案子那這個案子我們為了廣徵商源我們國內確實沒有廠商可以做"},{"start":557.438,"end":586.488,"text":"那這個案子其實就是賣方市場那我們為了廣深商業你有沒有訂資本額的標準沒有訂任何資本額的標準所以他資本額五萬十萬二十萬通通都可以只要他能夠提出能夠履約都可以來標所以我們以後面的履約的作為來約束廠商那如果他沒辦法履約你就扣他款嘛對嘛這就會造成我剛剛講的嘛會延誤的狀況但是我們20年來38個案子沒有任何一個案子沒有辦法履約的狀況"},{"start":587.188,"end":606.492,"text":"那是過去的時機嘛我講的是說我們現在講通案嘛我剛剛為什麼舉那個郵局的例子就是說如果說你在採購的過程當中你標準訂的太寬很可能就會造成比如說他沒辦法預約會影響到人民的權利嘛我講的是這件事情嘛我跟委員報告郵局的裝修跟買國防彈尿是兩回事"},{"start":606.952,"end":636.406,"text":"我知道是兩回事但是你採購東西你採購東西也是要看廠商的時機嘛我舉一個例子啦等一下等一下主委等一下好不好那時候疫情的時候衛福部也因為很緊急所以要買快篩後來不是也有一個小吃店轉型變成快篩公司可以進口快篩結果後來這個小吃店因為被踢爆說他之前是小吃店轉的他說他不接這個單子結果原來被人家發現他以前賣過假口罩"},{"start":637.506,"end":656.32,"text":"所以如果他那時候接了這個單子也跟衛福部簽約了可是事後沒有辦法履約他其實就會影響到這個快篩的進口嘛所以廠商時機當然會影響不管是公共工程採購勞務採購或貿易都是會影響的嘛現在我們討論就是說那廠商的資格資料那麼寬"},{"start":662.172,"end":681.688,"text":"還是其實掌上資格是可以定的比較嚴格一點而不是只是靠事後他能不能履約來處分他他能夠履約就奧米托弗很棒他不能履約我再扣他的履約保證金但那個就是會造成採購時程的延誤我現在討論的是這件事情所以主委你的態度是什麼"},{"start":682.608,"end":707.626,"text":"你覺得各單位應不應該即便是這種貿易的委員你要講通案但是舉的例子卻是很特殊的個案採購國防的彈藥疫情的時候採購疫苗這個都不是隨便街上就買得到的那個都是賣方市場所以這個通案跟這兩個個案事實上有不盡然的關係所以我們有些是做特殊考量我是只能這樣回答你的疑問了"},{"start":708.326,"end":722.527,"text":"所以你還是覺得說像國防部他的這個採購還包括還有一個茶葉行可以做電腦設備跟治安的維護他的資本額10萬塊你覺得你這種問法我沒辦法做任何回覆啦為什麼"},{"start":723.822,"end":731.809,"text":"不是 因為這個採購案我沒有講得很詳細採購案我沒有講得很詳細的原因是因為這個案子已經是國人很關注就工程會主管來講那剛剛講的那個茶葉行勒他就是做那個資安軟體的服務然後資本額10萬塊那這個是不是賣方市場是哪一個機關我來問問看哪一個機關國防部為什麼要這樣定情他說明嘛"},{"start":748.922,"end":761.925,"text":"沒有啦我為什麼沒有因為第一個私訊時間有限第二個我舉的這幾個案子都是大家討論國人媒體討論很多的例子有茶葉嘛茶葉這些是國防部嘛茶葉這些是國防部嘛那請問一下那茶葉行這個案子你有聽說嗎茶葉行這個案子你有聽說嗎你不知道"},{"start":774.195,"end":782.081,"text":"你不知道茶葉行做國防部電腦軟體思案的這個你沒有聽過不是啦沒關係啦因為我為什麼沒有針對每個個案說很詳細因為我剛剛講的茶葉的或者是彈藥這些"},{"start":791.048,"end":805.767,"text":"這個都是國人討論非常久的案子那今天因為主委您來您是主管公共工程所以想請教你的意見就是說像類似這樣的案子站在主管機關角度你的看法如何但是因為你"},{"start":806.127,"end":833.91,"text":"我早上已經說明你居然講說明你說不知道居然你都不知道然後問你 你就說去問各單位這就是公共工程會主委兼政務委員對國人所討論非常久的採購案的態度疑問三都之然後我問你 你就來跟我吵架那趙偉也站起來了我相信剛剛直播大家看見因為這個茶葉行大家都知道只有你不知道 你說你不知道"},{"start":834.792,"end":836.957,"text":"剛剛是你講 你不知道沒有關係 態度就是這樣那就這樣 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166813","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166813","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58539c5f0f12d898df3011a53eea80ce160f44abb379efbafa58fff7e47292a95a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:45:16 - 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是不是請我們陳主委陳靜樂主委請委員早主委早 今天的修法可以說是大修那你現在大概就是說舊的法律大概70年前的阿嬤級的法律"},{"start":23.704,"end":44.909,"text":"再來就是說第一次決標就流標的70%以上的案件我現在講說你們又拿出機關買機票還要三加這種東西不合時宜舉了說資訊充分 電子化了我們配套會有等標期延長等等"},{"start":45.609,"end":63.767,"text":"那其實我不是跟你談那個採購機票啦或小額的各個機關的小額狀況我現在要跟你討論的是類似三階現在三階四階齁整個巨額採購裡面的疑似招牧的招標的黑幕啦"},{"start":64.648,"end":66.99,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們看到幾個台灣巨額採購尤其是營造產業裡面的巨額採購從三接的弊案然後再轉折再影射到四接兩大營造廠的鬥爭看得人家眼花繚亂"},{"start":86.349,"end":108.702,"text":"那我現在講台灣營造產業巨額採購在大型的巨額採購而且越來越流行原本可以分標的政府都很多刻意併標故意併標那因為政府併標的金額動輒數百億所以變成符合資格的廠商加數屈指可數"},{"start":109.782,"end":125.608,"text":"在這種狀況裡面全台灣就那幾家大型營造公司有資格而已那我們知道營造業是勞力密集也是資本密集的產業集中大標所以現在的現況是什麼動輒數百億你說阿嬤級的採購法可是營造業法也是歐巴桑級的採購法"},{"start":135.091,"end":138.596,"text":"在這種狀況裡面你們在這種狀況裡面大型上百億數百億的採購事實上這幾家有資格的因為資本而限制無折承主委時代開放成淨值的這個開放條件你們也要把它關起來的話"},{"start":152.754,"end":177.846,"text":"在這種狀況就是那幾間專台灣就是那幾間但是市場上這幾家寡占的公司大型的營造公司每一個手上都案件滿滿的這幾家寡占的公司的工作量都幾乎都在飽和的狀況所以他們沒有急迫性需要去立即投標"},{"start":179.033,"end":192.052,"text":"所以你現在看到的說三家流標我告訴你我們明明知道這些數百億的巨額的不是三家流標也不是一家流標來投標的是零"},{"start":194.435,"end":201.182,"text":"所以我們大家內行人也不要講外行話三家投標留標兩個禮拜以後一家來投標就可以開標了差兩禮拜十四天你說這個效率會比較好大家都說第一次留標率70%很高"},{"start":216.838,"end":219.52,"text":"不要騙外行的14天後一斤就可以開錶啊這才是真正的事實但是巨額採購的問題不是一斤巨額採購的問題是沒半斤"},{"start":232.449,"end":248.775,"text":"因為我現在要跟你講 主委在你把併標可以拆標的你把它併標變成超大再加上你的營造業法再加上你從嚴去處理的話超大巨額的公共工程流標的問題它不是效率的問題"},{"start":249.855,"end":253.399,"text":"而是 你來看三接的故事還包括設計 預算 規格 工期的規定或是並標市場造成的壟斷還有寡占所衍生的問題接下來 是我問了AI CHAT GPT"},{"start":268.553,"end":289.582,"text":"因為寡占對營造業的市場結構它導致了大者恆大小者消亡它會加速市場集中化因為它必須要雄厚的資本業績技術關係網絡的大型廠商而且他們在取得資格他們在制定"},{"start":290.742,"end":319.142,"text":"規格的時候取得優勢影響規格設計所以他們大型巨額的這些廠商可以更能承受單獨投標的風險跟成本而在這個過程中小型專業的廠商更容易被邊緣化當標案導向唯一的廠商決標時一架相對能力是差的中小廠商更沒有辦法他們會被系統性的排除在外"},{"start":319.762,"end":327.306,"text":"而被迫成為大廠的下游分包商會失去了直接承攬公共工程的機會會導致中間的企業消失市場的活力下降然後這個是對營造業的業者的市場"},{"start":335.029,"end":353.217,"text":"如果對於社會來講 它會做什麼它會形成區域或領域性的寡占和壟斷在特定工程的領域淺頓的 電廠的 高科技的廠房或偏遠地區有能力承作的廠商本來就少"},{"start":353.817,"end":366.024,"text":"如果你這樣子改革下去我現在講的都是大型的營造的環境既有的少數的廠商更容易透過技術或資格壁壘長久壟斷該類工程新進者難以挑戰"},{"start":371.267,"end":389.384,"text":"現在已經會發生了 已經有部分現象發生了可能會出現分區治理和分業治理的默契也就是假廠商不願意 不會投入儀廠商的標儀廠商也不會介入假廠商的勢力範圍形成一種隱性的卡特"},{"start":390.385,"end":409.213,"text":"我們都知道黃昌做北部比如說紅華做南部也不會去侵占個人的領域啦你去看三階四階就知道了在這種狀況裡面還會創意志創新和技術提升因為在缺乏競爭的環境下"},{"start":410.854,"end":431.15,"text":"得標的廠商要用新工法新材料新技術來提升效率還是要維持現有的利潤高的做法作為最優先的選擇這個我們不得而知啦好那對公共工程的具體負面影響是什麼我這個都是問chat GPT的啦齁"},{"start":432.967,"end":459.795,"text":"第一個工程成本顯著上升寡占市場最直接的後果就是缺乏價格競爭廠商報價會趨近於政府可接受的最高價格就是底價而不是市場競爭下的合理價格所以造成我們政府公共財政支出將大幅增加排擠其他建設預算"},{"start":461.475,"end":477.287,"text":"這個案子在三階四階大家會生會癮的時候我們就看到了很很我不曉得啦 看到什麼 大家去想像吧然後再來 品質和效率的雙重風險品質的風險 因為"},{"start":481.024,"end":508.541,"text":"你三接 方艙四接 我要愛工信我七接 東 北 鐵 企工信又夾洪華譬如說 大家都自己要愛的都頭有刀 大家都顧了伯爺其實本本就好 大家在打問號是不是這樣子啦我剛剛講的是人家的問號啦所以沒有競爭對手的比較難以判斷出廠商提出的技術方案是否為最佳"},{"start":509.361,"end":524.903,"text":"沒有競爭對手一家投標就開標了履約期間廠商因為缺乏比較基準和競爭威脅可能降低施工標準資深偷工減料的誘因好那我們要講你打著效率的這個口號"},{"start":526.004,"end":539.002,"text":"那在效率的風險獨佔廠商可能缺乏按時完工的急迫性供其延宕的風險增加機關因為找不到其他可替代的廠商談判和監督的籌碼大減"},{"start":543.514,"end":553.559,"text":"這是不是現實 這是不是現象看起來好像也很多 台灣的公共工程界也有這種現象就沒有人要裱啊 他就說你要再蓋啊 工具要再蓋啊我才要來裱啊 沒半斤不是一斤沒辦法開裱的問題 是沒半斤"},{"start":562.663,"end":578.937,"text":"因為大家都 他們的 他們的容量有限嘛所以它有一個問題的風險 在公共工程上它會too big to fail 大到不能倒的系統風險少數大型廠商 壟斷多數重大工程你去看我剛才講的那幾間 看不看得到 幾百億也幾千億的工程在手上"},{"start":585.302,"end":602.373,"text":"如果其中一家發生財務危機公安事件或者是經營不善將導致多個重大公共公司同時停擺對國家建設和經濟造成衝擊所以大道不能倒然後還有一個資深更隱蔽更穩固的貪腐結構"},{"start":604.975,"end":629.082,"text":"在寡占市場的這個這個狀況裡面使得廠商跟官員民代之間更容易形成長期的穩固的政商共生關係利益輸送的單一標案的合作他會升級成長期的領域的保護和分潤查緝上更為困難再來第五個"},{"start":630.743,"end":651.373,"text":"計劃風險和彈性會盡失機關在規劃工程的時候會擔心只有一家投標而被迫向既有寡占的廠商的技術和能力傾斜限制工程設計的想像和突破機關的選擇權跟主導權實質上是移交給市場上的寡占的人"},{"start":652.333,"end":656.476,"text":"所以在這裡我是要跟你講說我們知道有很多小型的採購案的確真的沒有辦法沒有辦法三家來比價來標都沒有啊 其他都沒有啊但是也不要忘了"},{"start":667.722,"end":687.103,"text":"在巨額數百億上百億的大型採購裡面就是有我剛才講的問題所以政策的制定者你必須意識到這不僅是關係到提升效率的工具這一個修法更是具有強大的市場形塑力量的槓桿"},{"start":688.084,"end":714.827,"text":"在考慮取消加速門檻的同時你必須推出反壟斷要保護競爭的強力配套譬如說你要嚴格的執行公平交易法在營造業的聯合行為強大或者是說你強制要幫要將大型的標案拆分保障中小企業參與的部分項目或者是前述所有的"},{"start":715.808,"end":732.79,"text":"強化透明度和監督的機制否則長期來看是弊大於利所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的希望這個不是技術性的調整所以是政府制度採購公平性的根本的動搖如果配套真的不夠的話"},{"start":733.951,"end":758.771,"text":"如果全面實施 程序面搞成這樣子將會淪為全面掩護黑箱的合法外衣如果你沒有把底價的審查要更嚴格評選委員要更公開化事後成效要追蹤 沒有同步入法那麼這一個修法可能會被解讀成事項"},{"start":760.532,"end":780.598,"text":"這個特殊利益團體的妥協的一個部分所以我在這裡在最後抱歉了主席我再講最後一個第一個就是說有幾個問題要你理因為現在綁標犯罪你給他修修成不違法了"},{"start":781.926,"end":797.146,"text":"那消除了培標的成本那變相的降低了勾結的難度當培標不再有成本是不是反而增加業者勾結的可能性我現在不是針對我們巨額了我現在談的是地方政府也有可能"},{"start":797.947,"end":820.155,"text":"大家都知道地方政府的採購 綁標一直都是大問題所以在這種狀況裡面 你公開閱覽或公告計畫或者是審標期等標期再加長可是呢 技術性的綁標難查 寒產效應同業知道了 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那但是它影響所及第一個我們土方可以到的這個合法的這個土資場有限然後呢再加上就是因為這個新的制度很多你要符合現在國土署的標準的GPS的這個運送車它可能沒有這樣合格的標準"},{"start":58.172,"end":82.066,"text":"所以呢現在發生一個狀況就是有很多的土資廠都通知從今年1月1號開始他們暫停收容土方我想這你應該知道所以也引起了全省各地很多的工地停工那再加上他們的土方的處理那個價格暴增所以有的甚至暴增到10倍"},{"start":83.087,"end":111.743,"text":"那但是問題是說現在已經有陸陸續續的很多的土資廠的通知在他們沒有辦法符合相關規定之前他們是暫停收這個土方的那我想請問一下現在變成是全台就是有很多的工地因此而停工那我不曉得在我們公共工程的部分有沒有也受到影響或者您所了解這個狀況他有沒有一個辦法可以去做一個解決"},{"start":112.99,"end":137.567,"text":"基本上公共工程的部分比較少反正是建商的部分比較多很多不只是建商我知道只有民間的工地營造業民間營造業都受到影響這裡面有幾個問題就是各縣市政府他理應當他地方的這些清運清除業者或土地廠聯合抵制的時候他政府機關應該要有"},{"start":141.029,"end":163.847,"text":"他自己公辦的土資場或公辦的戰事場他要設法去戰事或區劃現在都很少就是各縣市政府很少因為這裡面問題很複雜所以當這些業者聯合抵制的時候的確造成一些困擾所以我在呼籲說業者並不是沒有任何空間能夠來收這些東西"},{"start":164.668,"end":187.554,"text":"不是零啦他還有空間只是價格問題所以我是呼籲這業者應該在這種情況之下應該來不要做這種聯合抵制的動作啦所以應該有多少就收多少那至於說這個裝GPS或現在不足的問題我剛才提過這裡牽涉到土地使用的許可"},{"start":188.974,"end":213.341,"text":"所以這個我們會整合各部位的意見來做改善也請工程會能夠做一個整合的意見我想這個除了土方之外包含的民間的工程還有當然希望是公共工程不要受影響因為時間關係我要趕快講就是我剛才也做了提案的說明那這次我們有關於政府採購法的"},{"start":215.562,"end":230.079,"text":"主要就是免除第一次一定要三家這個我沒有什麼太大的意見但是我長期在關心的就是我們很多政府的採購案長期以來為什麼有劣質的採購"},{"start":231.5,"end":253.255,"text":"就是因為我們這些被列為黑名單的這些廠商他們道高一尺 謀高一丈那當然你們這次修法去要阻止像這種就是今天我的A公司被你列為黑名單但是我用我的B公司 C公司 你們要防堵"},{"start":253.815,"end":277.053,"text":"但是問題來囉 現在問題是有很多 比如說我們在那個國防部的這個去一個茶葉公司去標那個電腦 這個電腦維修的案子男的被起訴了 結果他就找他的女的合夥人這女的當然由此一說是什麼可能是女朋友啦 或者女性的朋友他在找他的朋友來做這個負責人"},{"start":278.794,"end":299.303,"text":"繼續的去採購喔繼續去採購然後另外呢就是這些一再被列黑名單的這些廠商繼續可以來採購政府工程合理嗎我們曾經有幫你們計算過你知道最高被列黑名單的次數達到不是6次欸66次"},{"start":302.862,"end":328.628,"text":"你這是什麼意思啊 重考也不能重考那麼多次啊你已經被列為黑名單好幾十次 最高到66次然後只要他時間屆滿 他又是好漢一條啦要來繼續來標你政府的功臣 合理嗎完全不合理對不對還有國防部 最扯中科院都列為黑名單拒網名單喔拒絕網來的黑名單"},{"start":330.383,"end":356.356,"text":"國防部照樣給他標你以為這是很扯嗎 沒有 沒有喔沒有最扯 只有更扯竟然呢 他不但繼續讓他標連他被起訴他都不知道已經被起訴了 年終被起訴已經被中科院列為黑名單的廠商被起訴到了年末 國防部繼續把案子標給他"},{"start":358.9,"end":366.132,"text":"各位合理嗎我們的在我們眼皮子底下我們的政府採購可以這樣搞啊"},{"start":366.837,"end":388.362,"text":"我們也遵照委員在前兩個會期的要求提出政府採購法的修正草案那麼將這個公司或他代表人將來在成立的公司一併停權我看到你們這次有那第二個就是說有停權幾個案的我們這次把他停權時間要加計"},{"start":389.782,"end":401.289,"text":"不會說你同時停錢只是停個一部分而已我們是該停錢多久就把它加記起來我知道你們現在把它加記說到五年最高五年不同機關採購會不同時間來停權但是仍然會出現我剛才講說這種多次被停權它照樣來採購"},{"start":414.336,"end":434.176,"text":"中科院他是行政法人他可以不受政府採購法的施用我知道可是你今天不要跟我講行政法人嘛中科院跟國防部的關係誰不知道對不對然後還會發生這樣的狀況大家就是沒有辦法接受所以我仍然希望你們能夠支持我們也要評估對行政法人比較"},{"start":435.237,"end":456.8,"text":"什麼樣的行政法人可以不適用什麼樣行政法人他必須要適用或者是按照政府採購法的精神他應該有一些採購的準則這個我們會來精進這個其實我們是未來不要講行政法人行政法人就不需要遵守這個採購法你行政法人用的不是也是這個民脂民膏嗎"},{"start":457.421,"end":475.073,"text":"他也是百分之百是國防部的錢沒有錯啊也是完全是國防部的預算所以這一點我是支持但是基本上我這邊所提出來的三政條款我真的覺得要有一個次數你達到這個次數你就要永久除名不能再給他有重考的機會對不對合理吧"},{"start":483.678,"end":501.908,"text":"我們事實上有很認真的去研議這個問題那麼也在跟很多專業團體去討論通常一般來講是法律界比較認為說這種有點類似像有點像是判死刑的因為公司畢竟是人在"},{"start":503.129,"end":519.757,"text":"我們廢死到這種地步啊不是 因為公司的經營主體會變更啦他跟一般自然不大一樣就像現在上市公司他可能這一次是一個經營團然後下次會變因為我時間到了我意思說不能讓他重考到這種地步我說已經被列黑名單66次他接下來過兩年好漢一條繼續來飆你覺得我們社會觀感如何納稅人能夠接受嗎你們能接受我們沒有辦法接受啦好不好"},{"start":533.208,"end":534.894,"text":"好 這個還是希望你們能夠去檢討 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}