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沒有啦 那是之前的之前的現在沒有了"},{"start":215.417,"end":219.007,"text":"出席名單簽上來喔趕快出席名單簽上來"},{"start":285.16,"end":286.24,"text":"來 我們簽好了嗎"},{"start":300.524,"end":305.385,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":316.206,"end":318.586,"text":"來我們協商開始囉來"},{"start":346.043,"end":360.655,"text":"來我們介紹一下我們今天有參與我們協商的委員中嘉賓委員 張祺凱委員 謝業豐委員 邱志偉委員張家俊委員 郭國文委員 邱益穎委員有沒有簽到的"},{"start":362.216,"end":386.992,"text":"然後再來我們的機關我們農業部陳俊濟部長陳怡任代理司長然後吳芙蓉處長國家發展委員會專門委員沈志勳財政部專門委員我們的吳秀琳專委勞動部組長文秀珠法務部參事廖江憲行政院主席總處陳台偉檢任視察"},{"start":392.806,"end":401.71,"text":"來我們協商進行前後我們現在開始進行協商那本案是114年12月22日本院第11屆第4次經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議進行審查由本席擔任召委委員會審查結論第二條"},{"start":414.815,"end":434.162,"text":"條文照委員參與等人及委員陳庭碑等人提案通過第7條條文委員提案及修正動議均保留送院會處理院會交付禁服惡毒之提案有行政院及24案的委員提案與本次會議並案討論"},{"start":437.782,"end":456.487,"text":"那我們現在開始逐條討論首先委員劉建國等人委員黃秀芳等人及委員郭國文等人進步二讀的提案其中第三條在審查會時未曾討論那本次會議先就該條進行討論先請農業部進行說明麥克風麥克風來麥克風我們議事組"},{"start":467.897,"end":495.231,"text":"麥克風主席還有各位委員那有關於農民退休儲金的第三修正條文第三條的部分那這個修正條文第三條的部分並沒有行政院的版本但是因為經過上次很多委員的提出來以後那基本上農業部也是支持的"},{"start":495.891,"end":520.863,"text":"那整個的版本裡面各委員的提案的方向大概都一致都希望把這個斜槓人生就是做勞保的然後從事農業的部分能夠加到退休儲金所以我們是建議說紅委員的版本裡面最文字比較精準的是由那個秋英委員的版本這邊還有之前陳婷薇委員的版本做一些修正"},{"start":521.603,"end":549.154,"text":"那裡面的版本裡面有一個非常重要的就是實際從事農業工作者是現行條文的文字建議把它納入那第二個部分是我們是將未參加農保的勞工保險與國民年金保險的資格我們合併在第二款續名皆沒有僱主依其相關的提撥退休處境的那這個部分我想我們依照那個從現在手邊所看到的邱議員委員的版本"},{"start":550.574,"end":563.479,"text":"你們要不要提你們的建議提案出來你們把文字出來好不好邱委員的版本的文字所以你認為就是依照邱委員的版本大家有沒有意見"},{"start":565.667,"end":584.966,"text":"邱議員的版本大家有沒有意見我問一下邱委員版本是把一些從事實際勞動的對象包括國保跟勞保的部分之外那上次有討論到有關於這個軍人的部分有沒有納入軍人版本就有了嗎三之一那是三之一條"},{"start":587.658,"end":602.449,"text":"三之一的部分三之一還沒到來 那個部長所以你第三條是依照邱毅穎委員的版本不需要文字修正"},{"start":603.129,"end":617.637,"text":"不需要 不需要那我們就依照邱益穎委員的第三條的版本通過這樣我們委員有沒有意見沒有 謝謝大家的支持來 我們再來第三條之一就是我們剛講的軍保的部分"},{"start":618.803,"end":634.334,"text":"好那第三條的部分各位提案的方之一也是跟斜槓有關的就是各位提案的方向是一致的那我們文字是建議採用陳婷菲跟邱昀文的版本那這條裡面有幾個重點第一個重點就是"},{"start":635.094,"end":657.618,"text":"修正比照農保開放退伍青農及保險提繳的一個儲金將退伍參加勞國保資斜槓青農也一併納入這是剛才郭國文委員有提到的第二個部分就是在第一項裡面的第一款就退伍青農以農保資格提繳與現行的規定是一致的"},{"start":658.078,"end":687.032,"text":"那第二項的部分是保障曾參加提繳農退儲金的退伍青農如短期離農在5年內重返農業工作他可以繼續提繳的一個權益如果超過5年就不行那仔細參照現行的農保資格參加提繳退伍青農的做法以上好這樣子第三第三條之一就是依照邱益穎陳寧菲委員的版本不須文字修正"},{"start":688.251,"end":709.903,"text":"是邱映穎委員的版本是邱映穎委員版本 第三條之一所以是依照邱映穎委員的版本好 那第三條之一邱映穎委員的版本通過有沒有異議沒有好 沒有異議了 通過來 第七條第七條的部分最主要是"},{"start":711.763,"end":739.822,"text":"這個條文修正的一個重點就是農民跟政府的提交比例那我們分析了所有的版本裡面那多數委員的提案總共有15萬是與我們行政院的版本是一致的那我們在文字上面是建議用行政院的版本就是農民跟政府是採4比6的部分然後整個政府的支出大概是6億元那農民提繳的30年以後他減少的大概是33萬元左右"},{"start":740.282,"end":758.264,"text":"那每個月領取的金額是不變的那委員謝一鳳 郭國文 邱振軍提供的版本是農民跟政府是1比1.5但是它上面的天花板是打開的上面天花板是打開的部分那我們考量到整個經費的支應的部分"},{"start":759.145,"end":779.281,"text":"政府都會增加大概15億的支出那農民在30年內的金額是不變的但是最後領的是比較多的那我之前在委員會跟各委員說明現在我們在座談裡面委員是擔心現在繳的可不可以少一點啊而不是以後領的是可以多一點所以我們是建議用行政院的版本"},{"start":780.666,"end":782.752,"text":"我們請張其凱委員然後再來是郭國溫委員再來是張家俊委員"},{"start":790.109,"end":813.046,"text":"民眾黨也有提案我們是發現農民參加農退儲金的比例太低 覆蓋率太低全部才41% 特別青農才24%所以我們建議說把目前5比5當然我們認為調高到4.6是可以考慮民眾黨提案是希望可以變成是3比7就是說農民是負擔30%然後政委要提報是70%"},{"start":814.287,"end":827.917,"text":"那至於到後來要用37或者是46我們等一下進一步來討論一下不過最重要的是一定要照顧到農民另外就是這邊如果用後來採取的是46我希望老農今天那一塊那個金額要提高一點好 謝謝齊凱委員的說明然後我們請郭國文委員"},{"start":831.759,"end":855.371,"text":"部長你剛剛說的部分有一部分說對有一部分說錯主要的部分是你在農民的這個提繳的部分去減輕他的負擔你把這些負擔的責任來挪到這個政府方來但是總額的部分其實並沒有增加也就是說它基本上是一個朝市募山跟朝山募市的一個做法總額其實是沒有增加的"},{"start":855.891,"end":879.657,"text":"那我跟謝玉峰的版本 雖然是我先提 但是我們前後所見相反 好 好 好 一起好 一起好都相同 那原因是在哪裡 原因是我們希望是在從後面提撥的金額能夠提高而不是成本降低 而是總提撥金額 總領 總最後領到的金額提高所以最後的金額你提高的情況底下呢 其實所得替代率才會提高啦"},{"start":880.237,"end":898.026,"text":"所以其實你現在農退除菁你出現兩個問題一個是覆蓋率過低一個是替代率過低所以說你現在出現這兩個問題的話你要怎麼增加我就認為在整個替代率的部分提高可以避其供餘力一來可以提高覆蓋率也可以提高這個替代率主要是這一個"},{"start":899.287,"end":919.948,"text":"然後但是你如果是只有把這個成本降低的話或許再覆蓋率可以提高但是所得替代率你沒有辦法提高就是說你說以後會領得比較多我不認為就是說我說你有說對也有說錯的地方在這邊所以我是希望說你實施一段時間三年我用一個附帶決議的方式你用三年的時間來做一個檢討"},{"start":921.369,"end":933.814,"text":"又一個檢討你覆蓋率要增加然後接下來也要把這個所得利率增加這是本席上一次到現在為止一直跟你要求的主張我們請張家俊委員"},{"start":935.823,"end":955.532,"text":"我還蠻贊成郭國文委員所講的其實我們提出修正的草案核心的精神都非常的單純就是希望說政府多負擔一點然後讓這些青年農民少負一點而且這個制度也必須更加的友善所以這樣子的話"},{"start":957.353,"end":984.574,"text":"才不會讓農民跟青農在不同的制度之中被迫要取捨如果我們這個制度更友善對青農跟農民更有利的話他們當然也就會就想你的就是說你的那個替代率他們就會比較願意過來會比較提高那本席跟其他的很多委員大家提的都是說將現行1比1的這個比例調整為政府負擔六成然後"},{"start":985.234,"end":1006.352,"text":"農民負擔四成那這樣的調整的話是用實際的行動來展現說國家願意跟農民一起規劃未來也讓這個退休的保障更容易被接受那我想這可能也就跟行政院版本一樣所以行政院版本我們也是支持的謝謝我們現在請謝悅峰委員"},{"start":1008.675,"end":1030.29,"text":"其實大家會重新來檢討這個農民退休處境就是因為覆蓋率以及當然希望說農民未來生活的保障可以增加喔那但是就是說目前當然大家就是原則上是同意以這個行政院的版本通過的原因是希望說趕快的提高"},{"start":1030.77,"end":1052.352,"text":"就是說相關的就是退休途徑的這個的進度那當然我覺得最重要的是是不是未來我們還是要訂定期間重新再來檢討對這個制度我認為是不是應該寫在附帶決議裡面那這樣子才能夠比較可以來確定說"},{"start":1053.753,"end":1079.886,"text":"因为我们是根据农业部所说的农民的考的那个评估里面认为说他们希望是少缴而不是多拿退休的时候多拿那这个是不是能够提高这个覆盖率那我们三年以后来看那如果不行提高覆盖率的时候我们事实也是必须要提高所得替代率然后来增加这个农民退休属性的加保谢谢"},{"start":1083.368,"end":1095.557,"text":"那個我們上次的這個附帶決議裡面郭國文有提案的部分就是說兩年無法成長10%的時候就要檢討"},{"start":1097.521,"end":1124.589,"text":"農退儲金並改以提高相對提撥的1比2為方向上次就有伊鳳你有連署我們幾乎在現場的委員都有連署所以是不是就依照這個部分好那麼這個部分我們就依照行政院院版4比6的版本通過那在第8條的部分"},{"start":1129.741,"end":1156.547,"text":"第8條第8條的部分因為可以依照各委員的版本那各委員的版本文字大概都是一樣的對所以依照委員的版本各委員的版本就依照所有委員的版本因為我們所有委員的版本文字都是一樣的那我們就照這個協商內容通過然後第9條我們請"},{"start":1158.96,"end":1181.65,"text":"修正條文的第九條最主要是針對原住民的部分就是委員正天台有提案將那個提繳的年齡上限以65歲縮短到55歲那在這個部分我想農業部的立場還有行政院當初提出來的立場就是認為說現行的這部分都是用65歲的部分那之前有特別提到今天早上陳寅委員有提到"},{"start":1182.31,"end":1210.946,"text":"因為農民的這些漁民原住民的漁民是82.7歲雖然說他比同樣是農民的全體農民的漁民有少了將近3歲左右啦但是他不是像一般的差異都非常大那我覺得還有跟其他的這個我們農業部相關的這些包括後續在處理的退休儲金的部分都是在65歲所以我們還是建議還是維持在65歲不管他是他的族群"},{"start":1212.226,"end":1240.319,"text":"我們都維持在65歲鄭天才委員農業部每次引用的資料都是從65歲以後的年齡計算才會產生這麼差距很近的數字就比你們就沒有提供65歲以前65歲以前的農民"},{"start":1242.006,"end":1270.366,"text":"原住民跟非原住民的农民65岁以前的这个年龄的差距这和就会有关系譬如说你要收减我今天不坚持但是你一定要提供一个数字给我就是55岁到64岁55岁到64岁原住民跟非原住民的年龄的差距"},{"start":1271.401,"end":1291.633,"text":"可以作為我們未來的參考這樣好不好我這邊說明一下我們上次那個委員有提到就是我們要去統計這個資訊然後根據我們最新的一個統計就是55到64歲的原住民農保的被保險人我們針對農保的被保險人他的死亡率是2.4%"},{"start":1293.374,"end":1311.997,"text":"那同樣是參加農保的非原住民的他的死亡率是6.6反而是並沒有委員所說的中高年齡死亡的風險有顯著提高的一個情況原住民反而是比較低的這個數字我們再提供給委員"},{"start":1319.674,"end":1344.885,"text":"對 愚命就剛才講的82.7歲嘛你剛才講的是55到64歲因為愚命就是講到最後的死亡嘛但是你剛才提到55對您認為是55到64歲原住民死亡率比較高嘛可是從我們統計來看同樣參加農保55到64歲的原住民的死亡率是2.4非原住民是6.6反而是非原住民的死亡率比較高好 我提供這個數字"},{"start":1349.237,"end":1372.797,"text":"沒有啦今天協商所以我們現在那這一條就是不修正不予通過我們維持原先行條文這樣子我們委員有沒有意見好來新政第9條之一"},{"start":1374.244,"end":1399.416,"text":"好那第9條之一的也是斜槓的部分那各委員的提案方向一致我們文字建議採用委員陳庭菲跟邱映穎的版本這兩個的版本是一致的好那我們這個新增第9條之一就依照邱映穎委員陳庭菲委員的版本通過有沒有意見沒有意見通過那第10條"},{"start":1400.424,"end":1428.631,"text":"那第十條部分 各委員的提案方向也一致那文字我們建議採用邱毅委員的版本那配合受理單位又增加了漁會陳定輝版本也是一樣的兩個版本是一致的其他不一樣就是陳定輝跟邱毅陳定輝少了漁會所以只能用邱毅對"},{"start":1430.57,"end":1451.931,"text":"好 OK那麼我們第10條就依照邱益穎委員的版本通過大家有沒有意見沒有 謝謝你說哪一個第二項對 我第二項沒有想說比較完整的是對 比較完整所以第4條就依照邱益穎委員的版本通過那第12條"},{"start":1453.67,"end":1480.135,"text":"第12條的部分各委員的提案方向也是一致那文字我們建議採用劉建國黃秀芳陳亭飛跟邱盈瑩委員的版本好那我們第10條就依照第12條就依照陳亭飛邱盈瑩黃秀芳劉建國的委員四位委員的版本通過那第13條"},{"start":1481.328,"end":1507.615,"text":"那13條的部分那基本上也是斜槓的部分那文字可以依各委員的提案的版本他文字都相同都一樣嗎那第13條就依照所有委員的提案版本通過第14條那14條是處理有關原住民的部分那剛才有特別提到我們是建議維持現行的條文就是年齡提早年齡的上限就是沒有沒有降低都是一例都是65歲"},{"start":1509.688,"end":1530.2,"text":"所以我們第14條就不以修正不以通過維持現行的條文好 謝謝第16條第16條的部分它也是跟各位提案的版本都一樣那我們也是尊重"},{"start":1531.547,"end":1555.169,"text":"好 我們第16條就依照所有委員的提案版本通過第19條19條也是一樣 文字都可以依各委員提案的版本它文字都相同好 我們第19條就依照我們所有委員提案的版本通過第21條21條也是一樣 就是委員的提案都是一樣的文字可以依各委員的版本"},{"start":1556.192,"end":1582.667,"text":"好 我們第21條就依照我們所有委員提案的版本通過 第31條第31條也是一樣 就是它也是斜槓的部分那最主要文字各委員的版本方向是一致的 文字也相同那我們可以建議是採用各委員提案的版本好 第31條我們是這個依照所有委員的版本通過好 來 那"},{"start":1585.598,"end":1600.424,"text":"來我們宣讀一下協商的結論我們農民退休儲金條例部分條文修正草案黨囤學章已經完據我們協商的結論是協商通過的條文第3條"},{"start":1601.404,"end":1623.485,"text":"三支一条第七条第八条九支一条第十条第十二条第十三条第十六条第十九条第二十一条那不予通过的条文是维持现行条文就是第九条第十四条那其余条文均照审查会审查结果通过"},{"start":1624.89,"end":1630.713,"text":"我們補充一下我們在這個慎重把它念好第二條第二條上次審查會已經審查通過了"},{"start":1650.202,"end":1675.792,"text":"因為剛剛沒有剛剛我已經念了就是那個第二條的部分你這個給我看確定一下因為我剛剛已經有問有說了就是第二條條文依照委員蔡宇等人及委員陳寧菲等人的提案通過第七條條文然後所有的提案就是我們今天在審議的部分我在一開始黨團協商就念了"},{"start":1676.272,"end":1705.569,"text":"對 所以第二條就念過了那我們協商通過的條文是第三條 三之一條第七條 第八條第十條 十二條十三條 十六條十九條 二十一條三十一條這是協商通過的條文那不予通過維持現行條文的是第九條 第十四條那不予增訂的條文是九之一條九之一條 抱歉 九之一條是通過"},{"start":1706.644,"end":1712.108,"text":"你在幹嘛好 我再念一次"},{"start":1718.755,"end":1742.777,"text":"不好意思 我們議事人員有點出錯來 協商通過條文喔第三條 三之一條 第七條 第八條 九之一條第十條 十二條 十三條 十六條 十九條 二十一條 三十一條有沒有問題 好 來不予通過維持現行條文第九條 第十四條"},{"start":1744.246,"end":1768.049,"text":"好 那其餘條文均照審查會審查結果通過有沒有問題來 我們附帶決議一項要宣讀嗎我們之前宣讀過了就是附帶決議就依照我們宣讀過的附帶決議通過有沒有意見好 我們謝謝三位 謝謝"},{"start":1771.038,"end":1771.058,"text":"謝謝 謝謝 謝謝喔"}]}},{"id":"17179","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17179","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68521ca6625277982f4c1e4c0a96922c6a1081761262ea6c52f3c1e3cf5eaebf9d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十一) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十八) 委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十九) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十一) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十二) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十三) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二十四) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n【第一、三（四）及三（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查；第三（六）案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-07T08:38:59+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T17:27:00+08:00","duration":31681,"影片長度":"08:48:01","委員發言時間":"08:38:59 - 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請問會上次議事錄有無秋後遺落之處沒有 那我們議事錄確定那本次會議已成為審查及繼續審查身陷障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案等33案那先做一下宣告為此聽於這樣的朋友們可以更加了解本次議案的審查過程那待會會有所有翻譯員畫面的轉播"},{"start":1748.106,"end":1771.466,"text":"那現在介紹初期的委員及列席的官員那我們第一位是林院級林委員再來是王振旭王委員謝謝衛福部政務次長呂健德社交署署長周道軍法規會參事陳信成統計處處長李秋彥"},{"start":1775.597,"end":1802.415,"text":"護理及健康照護師副市長陳清梅心理健康師副署長鄭淑欣還有保護服務師專門委員張靖倫醫事師專門委員郭威中長期照顧師檢任計政白珊琪還有中央健保署醫務管理組組長黃佩珊國健署企劃組檢任計政劉巧清"},{"start":1804.688,"end":1831.869,"text":"還有司法院少年級家事廳法官郭耀明行政署長級懲戒廳法官何孝剛全序部專門委員蕭麗龍考選部重規師專門委員姚婉麗謝謝行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員陳淑萍一樣是對不起行政院人事行政總處重規處專門委員許孟志謝謝"},{"start":1835.868,"end":1856.223,"text":"還有編輯人力處專門委員曾永芳謝謝培訓考用處科長谷新橋謝謝內政部警察署國際組副組長林志俊警察署刑事警察局科長王家華謝謝國土署住宅發展組專門委員連偉耀謝謝"},{"start":1860.268,"end":1887.287,"text":"還有一樣是國路署建築管理組科長陳雅芳謝謝交通部公共運輸及監理師副市長廖錦智謝謝數位發展部數位政務師高級分析師王忠彥謝謝還有勞動部勞動發展署副署長石淑慧勞動力發展署先進障礙者及特定對象就業者副署長王雅芬勞動條件及救平等師市長王吉亞"},{"start":1890.055,"end":1903.538,"text":"總基礎專門委員鄭雅惠實業安全衛生署檢任基政葉佩潔經濟部經濟法治師專門委員林雨欣還有重規師專門委員劉玉蘭產業技術師專門委員陳俊維產化署科長林育淳"},{"start":1918.868,"end":1943.478,"text":"然後標準標檢局檢驗基準證乃源教育部學生事務及特殊教育師專門委員許文珍然後文化部重規師專門委員廖妮妮華國部參事汪蘭君監農監督管理局管理委員會延長局專門委員張曉平證券期貨局專門委員羅嘉怡"},{"start":1950.285,"end":1973.266,"text":"謝謝保險局副處長許文君國家通訊傳播委員會專門委員李文秀運動部設施規劃師副市長潘婉欣謝謝適應運動師副市長蔡忠義謝謝原住民社會福利處副處長洪玲"},{"start":1974.329,"end":1997.698,"text":"好 謝謝如果有遺漏之處再提醒 這應該是最多單位來的一次好林議員請委員要補充這個提案說明是不是等一下會有 對不起 等一下會有還有 現在請議事人員宣讀本次新增條文內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":2000.191,"end":2026.977,"text":"身心障礙財權益保障法部分條文修正草案行政院委員范雲等十九人委員盧仙怡等十六人委員萬美玲等十七人委員林倩琦等十九人委員蔡奕宇等十六人委員李昆城等十九人提案現行法條文對照表行政院委員李昆城等十九人提案第二條第一項第十四款倒數第二具為頓耗網路平台與通訊傳播傳輸內容無歧視等相關事宜之規劃第二項首具為前項以外之身心障礙權益保障事項"},{"start":2027.837,"end":2045.28,"text":"與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同委員蔡依瑜等十六人提案第二條與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同委員范雲等十九人提案第二條第一項及第三項第一至八款與委員陳冠廷等二十人提案同第九款如下"},{"start":2046.241,"end":2067.768,"text":"法務主管機關身心障礙者犯罪被害人保護接受調查與羈押之司法禁用權受刑人更生保護與收容環境改善等相關權益之規劃推動及監督等事項第十二十七十八款如下十二文化主管機關身心障礙者文化參與權落實之規劃推動及監督等事項十七"},{"start":2068.368,"end":2085.721,"text":"司法主管機關身心障礙者禁用司法之規劃推動及監督等事項十八 休閒娛樂主管機關身心障礙者休閒生活之充實與娛樂活動參與之規劃推動及監督等事項保障障礙者平等禁用休閒娛樂設施服務與空間並促進其參與主流娛樂活動"},{"start":2089.344,"end":2115.292,"text":"因確保身心障礙兒童與同齡者平等享有上述權利第十四款增列後段如下並對於所蒐集個人資料進行無從識別特定個人之處理者處因於依個人資料保護法第八條及第九條規定告知用戶相關事項外並一併揭露其處理方式與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同委員萬美玲等十七人提案第二條與委員王玉敏等十七人提案同"},{"start":2116.152,"end":2131.557,"text":"委員范雲等十九人提案第三條與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同委員范雲等十九人提案第四條第六及第十款如下六身心障礙者保護業務之執行事項十其他直轄市縣市身心障礙福利服務權益保障之策劃及督導事項"},{"start":2133.257,"end":2153.632,"text":"與與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第一至第五款及第七至第九款同委員范雲等十九人提案第五條序文如下本法所稱身心障礙者指下列各款身體系統構造或功能長期間歇或短暫有損傷影響其活動與充分平等參與社會生活經醫事社會工作特殊教育與職業輔導評量等相關專業人員組成之專業團體鑑定及評估領有身心障礙證明者與與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同"},{"start":2161.958,"end":2190.66,"text":"行政院委員蔡易瑜等十六人 委員李坤成等十九人提案第六條第一項第二句為縣市主管機關受理身心障礙者鑑定是申請時予以委員劉建國等十七人提案110121218號同委員盧憲義等十六人提案第六條第一項增列後段如下對於援助民族身心障礙者之鑑定應考量其語言文化特性並以其慣用語言進行必要時應由具援助民族文化敏感度之專業人員協助予以現行法同"},{"start":2191.761,"end":2208.681,"text":"行政院委員蔡易餘等16人委員李昆成等19人提案第7條與委員劉建國等17人提案11011218號同委員蔡易餘等16人提案第7條直轄市縣市主管機關因與取得衛生主管機關所核轉之身心障礙鑑定報告後"},{"start":2211.543,"end":2235.317,"text":"籌組專業團隊進行需求評估前項需求評估因應身心障礙者障礙類別程度家庭經濟狀況照顧服務需求家庭生活需求社會參與需求等因素為之直轄市縣市主管機關對於涉及於轄區內依前項評估合於規定者應核發身心障礙證明具以提供所需支付力及服務第一項評估作業的並同前條鑑定作業辦理有關評估作業與鑑定作業並同辦理事宜"},{"start":2239.379,"end":2254.851,"text":"評估專業團隊人員資格條件評估工具作業方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員范雲等19人提案第7條第4項莫具為由中央主管機關會同中央衛生主管機關定之予與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同"},{"start":2257.765,"end":2273.819,"text":"委員盧先生一等十六人提案第七條第二項增列後段如下對於原住民族身心障礙者之需求評估應考量其文化背景部落生活型態及地理環境特性評估專業團隊成員中應至少有一人具備原住民族文化敏感度"},{"start":2274.199,"end":2292.137,"text":"或首忍當地部落地區予以現行法同委員萬美玲等17人提案第7條與委員王玉明等17人提案同行政院委員李昆成等19人提案第10條第一項第二句為身心障礙領域學者專家民間相關機構團體代表及各目的事業主管機關代表"},{"start":2292.637,"end":2311.273,"text":"於委員吳麗華等十八人提案第一項前段同第二項如下前項人員組成應符合下列規定一身心障礙者代表學者專家及民間相關機構團體代表之人數不得少於總數二分之一二身心障礙者代表及身心障礙者人數合計不得少於總數二分之一"},{"start":2312.073,"end":2340.464,"text":"並應兼顧各障礙類別之均衡三任意性別不得少於總數三分之一第三項與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一二一八號第三項同第四項與委員吳麗華等十八人提案第四項同委員蔡易瑜等十六人提案第十條第一項倒數第二句首二字為辦理與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號第一項同第二三項與委員劉建國等十七人提案第二三項同第四項與委員何欣淳等十七人提案第四項同"},{"start":2341.204,"end":2368.861,"text":"委員范雲等19人提案第10條 主管機關應與首長為召集人 臨聘派身心障礙者代表人權與身心障礙福利學者或專家與民間相關機構團體代表及各目的事業主管機關代表辦理身心障礙者權益保障事項副召集人由身心障礙者代表推選之前項之代表單一性別不得少於三分之一並應兼顧年齡族群等身份身心障礙者代表之人數不得少於成員總數二分之一"},{"start":2369.501,"end":2396.933,"text":"並應兼顧本法第五條第一項各款障礙類別之均衡第一項身心障礙者代表得採公開選舉推牌其公開選舉辦法由各級主管機關定之第一項小組成第一項小組委員任期委員任期以四年為一任藉其藉滿得依公開選舉機關續齡聘派為之但以連任一任為限會議至少每三個月定期開會一次主管機關應於第一項規定之會議提供必要事足之無障礙環境"},{"start":2397.893,"end":2426.802,"text":"程序資訊及個人協助手語聽答等服務及合理調整確保公開透明並於會議前公布議程會議後公開會議記錄 第一項權益保障事項包括一整合規劃研究諮詢協調推動促進身心障礙者權益保障強化人權等相關事宜二受理身心障礙者權益受損協調歧視認定調查事宜明定受理申訴機制由本人參與並邀請第三方專業人士列席"},{"start":2427.722,"end":2452.313,"text":"委員盧憲義等十六人提案第十條修正第一項第二句為身心障礙領域學者或專家與民間相關機構並於句末增列逗號且應包含原住民族身心障礙者代表至少一人予以現行法同委員萬美玲等十七人提案第十條第一項倒數第三句兒少身心障礙者及身心障礙者團體代表合計之比例予以委員王玉敏等十七人提案同"},{"start":2453.652,"end":2467.582,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等19人提案新增第10條之一機關構學校事業機構法輪候團體於訂定影響身心障礙者權益之政策法規或規章時應提供身心障礙者可禁用之資訊及表示意見之機會"},{"start":2468.823,"end":2486.898,"text":"委員蔡易宇等16人提案新增第10條之一與委員劉建國等17人提案11011218號同委員范雲等19人提案新增第10條之二各目的事業主管及委外研究團隊擬定法規計畫與方案以及編列預決算時如涉及身心障礙者相關議題"},{"start":2487.959,"end":2509.034,"text":"應透過各種無障礙方式公開揭示並諮詢身心障礙者及其代表團體身心障礙者及其代表團體如任前項法規計畫方案欲決算涉及身心障礙者權利得向各事業主管機關要求被諮詢之權利委員萬美玲等17人提案新增第10條之一與委員王玉敏等17人提案同"},{"start":2509.594,"end":2528.685,"text":"委員范雲等19人提案第11條各級政府應至少每3年舉辦身心障礙者之生活與經濟狀況保健醫療特殊教育就業與訓練休閒娛樂人力支持交通及福利等需求評估及服務調查研究應包括性別年齡各族原住民身份"},{"start":2529.085,"end":2547.454,"text":"各障別 各障礙程度居住都會區與原住民族地區等並應出版公布調查研究結果相關調查與公布方式應充分諮詢障礙者及障礙者團體行政院每五年辦理全國人口普查時應將身心障礙者人口調查納入普查項目"},{"start":2549.144,"end":2566.324,"text":"行政院委員蔡玉玉等十六人 委員李昆成等十九人提案與委員劉建國等十七人提案11011218號同行政院委員李昆成等十九人提案第十六條身心障礙者之人格及合法權益應受尊重及保障"},{"start":2567.284,"end":2584.074,"text":"對其接受教育應考僅用就業居住遷徙醫療等權益不得有歧視騷擾之對待公共設施場所營運者因使身心障礙者得公平使用設施設備或享有權利機關構學校事業機構法人或團體辦理教育招考僅用就業"},{"start":2585.195,"end":2601.597,"text":"醫療服務矯正措施或其他經中央主管機關公告之權益事項因應身心障礙者個別障礙需求與不造成不成比例或過度負擔之情況下經協商程序進行必要及適當之合理調整並建立身心障礙者申訴管道"},{"start":2602.137,"end":2621.392,"text":"於本法中華民國全年全月全日修正之條文實行之日起一年內中央主管機關與中央目的事業主管機關應就前向合理調整適用範圍協商程序及申訴管道訂定指引並公告之機關構學校事業機構法輪廓團體應於前向指引公告之日起二年內"},{"start":2622.052,"end":2632.964,"text":"定定合理調整流程並公開揭示之機關構學校事業機構法人或團體因第一項禁止歧視或騷擾之規定自身損害與身心障礙者負賠償責任雖非財產上之損害亦得請求賠償相當之金額其名譽被侵害者並得請求回復名譽之適當處分"},{"start":2644.136,"end":2667.691,"text":"委員蔡宇等十六人提案第十六條第一項與委員吳麗華等十八人提案第一項同第二至第五項與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號第二至第五項同委員范雲等十九人提案第十六條身性障礙者之人格及合法權益應受尊重及保障對其接受教育應考禁用就業居住遷徙醫療體育運動政治參與休閒娛樂等權益不得有歧視之對待"},{"start":2671.593,"end":2687.441,"text":"其中包含對身心障礙者之家屬親友相關工作人員等關聯性歧視之禁止公共設施場所營運者因使身心障礙者得公平使用設施設備服務資訊通訊或享有權利公司立機關構團體學校與企業公開辦理各類考試"},{"start":2690.723,"end":2716.417,"text":"因應身心障礙應考個別障礙需求在考試公平原則下提供無障礙交通空間設施設備個人協助服務多元化適性協助以保障身心障礙者公平應考機會第一項所稱之歧視包括直接歧視間接歧視拒絕提供合理調整以及騷擾機關或事業機構法人或團體應歧視而使身心障礙者受有損害者應付"},{"start":2717.037,"end":2721.061,"text":"賠償責任雖非財產上之損害亦得請求賠償相當之金額其名譽被侵害者並得請求回復名譽之適當處分委員范雲等19人提案新增第16條之一機關購學校事業機構法人或團體辦理教育招考徵聘禁用就業醫療與健康照護服務"},{"start":2736.677,"end":2753.263,"text":"休閒娛樂體育活動政治參與文化生活矯正措施等權宜事項以及提供向公眾開放之設施或服務因應身心障礙者個別障礙需求與造成不成比例或過度負擔之情況下進行必要及適當之合理調整"},{"start":2754.043,"end":2779.519,"text":"身心障礙者與其權利之享有或行事因上述義務承擔之物理環境規定標準或做法而致顯著不利者得向義務承擔人提出合理調整要求該要求提出後義務承擔人應啟動對話就合理調整進行協商若義務承擔人認為合理調整措施造成不符比例或過度負擔而拒絕提供者需負舉證責任"},{"start":2781.448,"end":2796.788,"text":"因合理調整所深知成本由義務承擔人負擔政府應對義務承擔人提供經費與行政資源以確保障礙者之權利委員范雲等19人提案第20條為促進身心障礙輔具資源整合"},{"start":2797.168,"end":2812.28,"text":"研究發展及福利服務政策中央主管機關應整合各目的事業主管機關推動辦理身心障礙輔具資源整合研究發展及福利服務政策等相關事宜前項輔具福利服務政策應每三年檢討一次"},{"start":2812.7,"end":2832.527,"text":"由中央主管機關會同身心障礙者身心障礙福利學者輔具相關領域之專家學者民間相關機構團體代表等共同研商之其中具身心障礙身份不得少於二分之一第一項輔具資源整合研究發展及服務辦法應考量性別年齡族群文化等需求"},{"start":2833.107,"end":2848.396,"text":"未可進行可負擔性 並應提供輔具保養及維修補助 相關辦法由中央主管機關會同中央教育勞工科技研究事務經濟主管機關定之 行政院委員李昆城等19人提案第21條"},{"start":2849.397,"end":2864.767,"text":"向如下 前項保健服務追蹤服務 健康檢查項目與方式及其他相關事項之準則由中央衛生主管機關定之 予以委員劉建國等17人提案110121218號同 委員蔡玉等16人提案第21條 予以委員劉建國等17人提案110121218號同"},{"start":2869.85,"end":2887.49,"text":"委員范雲等十九人提案第二十一條第一四項如下中央衛生主管機關應規劃整合醫療資源提供身心障礙者健康維護生育保健及就近就醫之無障礙設施等以保障身心障礙者就醫之權利第一項身心障礙者就近就醫之服務"},{"start":2888.03,"end":2911.156,"text":"直轄市縣市衛生主管機關應擬定就醫環境無障礙改善辦法保障各級就醫環境第二三項與先行法同委員盧憲義等十六人提案第二十一條第一項增列後段如下針對援助民族地區及醫療資源不足地區應會同中央援助民族主管機關結合在地醫療院所或衛生所"},{"start":2911.976,"end":2937.196,"text":"規劃辦理到載巡迴醫療復健及遠距醫療服務予以現行法同委員萬美玲等17人提案第21條與委員王玉敏等17人提案同委員范雲等19人提案第22條第二句如下依身心障礙者個別需求提供到載或外出就醫之保健醫療服務予以現行法同委員范雲等19人提案第23條第一三項與現行法同第二項與臺灣民眾黨黨團同"},{"start":2940.458,"end":2967.46,"text":"委員范雲等十九人提案第二十五條第一三項與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第一四項同第二項如下前項身心障礙者就近就醫之服務為確保其醫療服務可進行由直轄市縣市主管衛生機關訂定就醫環境無障礙之輔導辦法並具以推動社區型各級醫療機構就醫環境之改善及強化都會區援助民族地區及偏遠地區巡迴醫療車之配置與服務"},{"start":2968.26,"end":2985.099,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等十九人提案第26條第一項與先行法第一項同第二項如下前項補助之對象項目金額及其他相關事項之辦法由中央衛生主管機關定之委員蔡易瑜等十六人提案第26條與委員劉建國等十七人提案11011218號同"},{"start":2987.421,"end":3012.557,"text":"委員范雲等十九人提案第二十六條第一項與先行法第一項同第二項如下前項不出辦法應注意可敬性及可負擔性由中央衛生主管機關會同中央主管機關定之委員萬美玲等十七人提案第二十六條與委員王玉敏等十七人提案同委員范雲等十九人提案第二十七條第二項莫具如下無提供個人協助服務或其他理由拒絕其入選"},{"start":3013.257,"end":3037.69,"text":"第四項第二句如下於到校就學期間含課後及含暑假輔導班第六項如下為保障身心障礙學生參與校外教學活動各級教育主管機關應主動提供無障礙交通方式人力支持服務無障礙教學環境含住宿以維護其受教育之權益予以臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同委員范雲等19人提案第28條"},{"start":3038.59,"end":3067.544,"text":"各級教育主管機關應主動協助身心障礙者就學並應主動協助正在接受醫療 社政等相關單位服務無法外出就學及偏鄉之身心障礙學齡者解決其教育相關問題委員范雲等19人提案第30條各級教育主管機關辦理身心障礙者教育及入學考試時應依其障礙類別程度學習及生活需要提供各項必須之專業人員個人協助服務無障礙格式教材資訊"},{"start":3068.504,"end":3069.565,"text":"委員范雲等19人提案第30條之一"},{"start":3086.736,"end":3099.048,"text":"與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同委員范雲等19人提案第30條之二第二項如下前項所稱數位格式由中央教育主管機關與身心障礙者及身心障礙團體與相關專業團體言相定定之與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同"},{"start":3107.153,"end":3135.116,"text":"委員范雲等19人提案第31條同委員吳麗華等18人提案委員范雲等19人提案第32條身心障礙者繼續接受高級中等以上學校之教育各級教育主管機關應與講助其講助辦法由中央教育主管機關定之前向學校提供身心障礙者無障礙設施得向中央教育主管機關申請補助委員范雲等19人提案第33條同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第33條"},{"start":3137.745,"end":3157.371,"text":"行政院提案第38條第3項第6行每月末日每月一日改為每月末日第4項第2行及第6行基本工資改為最低工資第8項及第9項"},{"start":3160.352,"end":3187.084,"text":"第二行增列機關刮鬍單位其餘同線刑法委員蔡瑜等16人提案第38條 委員李昆城等19人提案第38條與行政院提案同委員萬美玲等17人提案第38條之2與委員王玉敏等17人提案38條之2同委員范雲等19人提案第39條之1與委員吳麗華等18人提案第39條之1同"},{"start":3190.649,"end":3215.578,"text":"行政院提案第40條第1項第5行改為基本工資改為最低工資與同線刑法委員蔡瑜等16人提案及委員李昆城的19人提案第40條同行政院提案委員林倩琦等19人提案第40條之1與委員洪孟凱40條之1同行政院提案第42條"},{"start":3219.11,"end":3237.248,"text":"第二項第三行基本工資改為最低工資第三項第五行比率頓耗方式及其他相關事項修正予以現行法同委員李 蔡宇等16人提案第42條及委員李 昆城等19人提案第42條與行政院提案第42條同"},{"start":3246.502,"end":3273.638,"text":"行政院提案第43條及委員蔡宇宇等16人提案第43條及委員李昆城等19人提案第43條與委員吳麗華等18人提案43條同行政院提案第44條及委員蔡宇宇等16人提案第44條及委員李昆城等19人提案第44條同委員吳麗華等18人提案"},{"start":3275.666,"end":3303.394,"text":"行政院提案第46條原憲刑法第一項及第六項刪除令第修正第三項改為第二項前項輔導與補助之對象及第四項修正為第四行修正為按摩工作分號原句號改為分號 其餘同憲刑法"},{"start":3304.537,"end":3328.9,"text":"委員蔡宇等16人提案第46條及委員李昆城等19人提案第46條與行政院提案同委員萬美玲等17人提案第4章之1章名同委員王玉敏等17人提案第4章之1章名委員萬美玲等17人提案第4條之1與委員王玉敏等17人提案第47條之1同"},{"start":3333.994,"end":3359.389,"text":"委員萬美玲等17人提案第47條之2與委員王玉明等17人提案第47條之2同委員萬美玲等17人提案第47條之3與委員王玉明等17人提案第47條之3同委員萬美玲等17人提案第47條之4與委員王玉明等17人提案第47條之4同"},{"start":3361.414,"end":3389.042,"text":"委員萬美玲等十七人提案第四七條之五與委員王韻敏等十七人提案第四七條之五同委員萬美玲等十七人提案第四章之二章名同委員王韻敏等十七人提案第四章之二章名委員范雲等十九人提案第五十條之二將委員范雲等十七條"},{"start":3390.683,"end":3415.305,"text":"等十七人提案第四十七條之五第三項修正主動第二行主動兩個字刪除第四項第二行金額兩個字刪除予以委員范雲等十七人提案第四十七條之五同委員萬美玲等十七人提案第四十七條之六與委員王一鳴等十七人提案第四十七條之六同"},{"start":3418.564,"end":3439.794,"text":"委員萬美玲等17人提案第47條之7與委員王玉敏等17人提案第47條之7同委員范雲等19人提案第49條第二項第三行增列及居住第4個字予以現行法同委員盧憲一等16人提案"},{"start":3442.214,"end":3461.631,"text":"第二項前項服務與援助民族地區因結合部落文化特色及在地照顧資源並優先禁用具援助民族與能力之服務人員以促進援助民族身心障礙者與部落內自立生活予以現行法同文範雲等19人提案第50條"},{"start":3463.837,"end":3490.3,"text":"增列第十款同儕支持服務並遞於原第十款改為第十一款同時增列第二項前項服務之提供應尊重身心障礙者之意願及選擇選擇適合其個別需求之服務模式直銷室縣市主管機關不得以任何理由限制身心障礙者選擇服務之權利予以現行法通行政院提案第五十條之一"},{"start":3491.492,"end":3500.753,"text":"為保障身心障礙者自立生活及融入社區直轄市縣市主管機關辦理前條第九款規定之自立生活支持服務應結合社會福利醫療長期照顧"},{"start":3501.69,"end":3526.067,"text":"交通教育就業住宅輔具無障礙環境等各項支持服務資源提供協助身心障礙者依需求評估結果使用自立生活支持服務應由專業人員協助其擬定自立生活計畫其社會參與及活動支持所需之人力得由個人助理協助之下是縣市主管機關應籌組專業團隊審查前項自立生活計畫"},{"start":3527.328,"end":3556.417,"text":"並提供身心障礙者表示意見之機會前項專業團隊成員應包含行政機關代表身心障礙者代表專家學者或身心障礙團體代表委員蔡易瑜等16人提案第50條之一與委員劉建國等17人提案11011218號提案第50條之一同委員李坤誠等16人提案第50條之一與行政院提案同"},{"start":3558.393,"end":3582.535,"text":"文範雲等19人提案除修正第1項第1行未使身心障礙者及第6行可用性改頓耗可負擔性予以吳立華等18人提案同行政院提案第51條除第2項修改為"},{"start":3583.73,"end":3612.38,"text":"據首修改為第50條予以現行法同委員蔡宇等16人提案第51條及委員李昆城等19人提案第51條與行政院提案同委員范雲等19人提案第52條修正第7款增列輔具遁號及第二項第三行增列遁號電影集串流平台第6行"},{"start":3613.929,"end":3641.056,"text":"改分號針對視覺功能障礙者因依其需求提供口述影像服務並增列第四項中央目的事業主管機關補助電影電視節目及其他視聽著作之製作因明定製作口述影像之一定比例並逐年提升之第五項手續改為前二項予以現行法同行政院提案第52條之一"},{"start":3644.246,"end":3671.031,"text":"增列第一項各級主管機關的部分及第三項前項獎勵內容均與委員羅廷偉等16人提案同委員蔡易餘等16人提案第52條之一及委員李昆城等19人提案第52條之一均與行政院提案同"},{"start":3671.806,"end":3696.505,"text":"行政院提案第52條之二各級政府與其附屬機關構學校公營事業與政府捐助之財團法人所建置之網站及行動化應用軟體應通過無障礙檢測並取得認證標章一定規模以上之醫院金融機構之網站一同前項網站與行動化應用軟體之檢測標準方式頻率及認證標章核發之辦法"},{"start":3697.526,"end":3714.999,"text":"由中央目的事業主管機關定制第一項制一定規模由中央各目的事業主管機關定制委員李昆成等19人提案第52條之二與行政院提案同委員萬美玲等17人提案第52條之二與委員王玉敏等17人提案第52條之二同"},{"start":3723.018,"end":3738.968,"text":"委員蔡奕宇等16人提案第53條與委員劉建國等10件提案10121218號提案同委員盧憲一等16人提案第53條增列第二項"},{"start":3740.824,"end":3768.17,"text":"針對原住民族地區及偏遠地區因地理環境限制無法普及大眾運輸工具者交通主管機關因專案規劃具無障礙設備之替代性運輸服務並針對原住民族身心障礙者提供優先預約或費用補貼予以現行法同文範雲等19人提案第53條第二項第二行"},{"start":3768.837,"end":3789.614,"text":"增列因提替代改善方案或合理調整第七行增列若人有困難應負舉證責任後不適用前項規定第五項第二行增列及服務與資訊提供方式與現行法同行政院提案第54條及"},{"start":3793.396,"end":3814.266,"text":"委員李坤澄等19人提案第54條與委員林月琴等18人提案第54條同行政院提案第57條委員蔡易瑜等16人提案第57條及委員李坤澄等19人提案第57條與委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號同"},{"start":3822.145,"end":3847.123,"text":"委員范雲等19人提案第57條第3項第8行增列具舉證後4個字語與現行法同行政院提案第58條修正末項第5項前4項優待之實施方式內容及其他相關事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之"},{"start":3849.487,"end":3877.657,"text":"與委員劉建國等17人提案第101218號同第58條同委員蔡依儀等16人提案與委員劉建國等17人提案第101218號提案同委員李昆城等19人提案與行政院提案同行政院提案第58條之一及委員蔡依儀等16人提案第58條之一及委員"},{"start":3878.658,"end":3908.116,"text":"李昆城等19人提案58條之一與委員羅美玲等16人提案第58條之一同行政院提案第61條及委員蔡易餘等16人提案第61條李昆城等19人提案61條均與委員劉建國等17人提案101218號提案同文盧憲一等16人提案"},{"start":3910.27,"end":3934.296,"text":"第二項第四行增列直轄市縣市主管機關應建立手語翻譯及同步聽打之視訊遠距服務機制以協助原住民族地區或偏遠地區之聽覺或言語功能障礙者服務提供者應接受多元文化訓練並培育具備原住民族語能力之手語翻譯及聽打服務人員予以現行法同"},{"start":3937.028,"end":3953.982,"text":"委員范雲等19人提案第61條第一項第二行增列及同步聽打第四行增列及其他因障礙而有資訊傳遞之內容予以現行法同行政院提案第63條"},{"start":3956.158,"end":3967.608,"text":"委員蔡奕宇等16人提案第63條及委員李昆成等19人提案第63條均與委員劉建國等17人提案101218號提案同委員盧憲一等16人提案"},{"start":3972.116,"end":3989.504,"text":"增列第二項增列第三款與原住民族地區設立配合中央主管機關推動部落在地照顧政策且規模符合中央主管機關公告之標準者欲現行法同行政院提案第63條之一"},{"start":3993.052,"end":4018.05,"text":"委員蔡玉等16人提案第63條之一及委員李昆成等19人提案第63條之一均與委員吳麗華等18人提案第63條之一同委員萬美玲等17人提案第63條之一與委員王玉敏等17人提案第63條之一提案同行政院提案第63條之二"},{"start":4023.257,"end":4044.153,"text":"第二項修正前項一定期間與第三款情形為自確定之日期五年於第一款第二款或第四款情形由主管機關審酌情節嚴重程度認定一年至十年與委員劉建博等17人提案101218號提案同"},{"start":4046.417,"end":4067.325,"text":"文蔡宇等16人提案第63條之二與委員劉建國等17人提案第1011218號提案第63條之二提案同文理昆城等19人提案同行政院提案第63條之二行政院提案第63條之三"},{"start":4070.922,"end":4097.616,"text":"除第三項修正前項一定期間於前條第一項第三款情形為自確定之日起五年於該項第一款第二款或第四款情形由主管機關審酌情節嚴重程度認定一年至十年於第一項第二項與委員劉建國等17人提案101218號提案通文蔡與等16人提案第63條之三與委員劉建國等17人提案第63條之三"},{"start":4101.049,"end":4106.499,"text":"101218號提案通維尼昆城的19人提案第63條之3與行政院提案通"},{"start":4113.464,"end":4128.947,"text":"行政院提案第63條之四第二項修正前項主任有傷害身心障礙者之餘之原因消失後金主管機關認定得執行職務者仍得依本法規定擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任及工作人員"},{"start":4131.009,"end":4150.57,"text":"與委員劉建國等17人提案第1101218號提案第63條之4同文釵宇等16人提案第63條之4與委員劉建國等17人提案第63條之4同委員李昆城等19人提案第63條之4與行政院提案同行政院提案第63條之5"},{"start":4154.266,"end":4163.452,"text":"委員蔡玉等16人提案第63條之5委員李昆城等19人提案第63條之5與委員劉建國等17人提案101218號提案第63條之5同行政院提案第63條之6"},{"start":4172.737,"end":4194.977,"text":"除第4行修正第1項第1款第2款第4款第7行增列原因後面增列是否消失是否兩個字與委員劉建國等17人提案第63條之6101218號提案同文蔡玉等16人提案第63條之6"},{"start":4202.341,"end":4218.974,"text":"除第7行少掉是否兩個字與行政院提案同文理昆城等19人提案第63條之6與行政院提案同行政院提案第63條之7"},{"start":4222.028,"end":4239.022,"text":"增列第三項 主管機關對身心障礙福利機構聘僱院長主任亦應主動查證有無第一項規定形式外 予以委員劉建國等17人10121218號提案第63條之7提案同"},{"start":4240.31,"end":4254.209,"text":"文蔡宇等16人提案及委員李昆成等19人提案第63條之7均與行政院提案同文萬美玲等17人提案第63條之6與委員王玉明等17人提案第63條之6提案同"},{"start":4256.252,"end":4275.542,"text":"行政院委員蔡宇等十六人委員李昆成等十九人提案第七十一條與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一二一八號同委員范雲等十九人提案第七十一條第一項倒數第二句為提供下列經費補助或實務補助第五九十款如下五個人協助服務費用補助"},{"start":4275.942,"end":4305.021,"text":"九 生理用品補助 十 其他必要之救助及服務 六 七 八款同現行 五 六 七款予以現行法同 委員盧縣議等十六人提案第七十一條第二項增列後段如下 但前項第五款之補助對於居住於原住民族地區或離島地區之身心障礙者 應額外提供或補助輔具評估 適配運送及維修所需之交通運費 必要時指轄市縣市主管機關應提供定期到宅巡迴維護"},{"start":4306.923,"end":4321.062,"text":"維修服務予以現行法同委員萬美玲等十七人提案第七十一條與委員王育敏等十七人提案同行政院委員李昆城等十九人提案第七十四條第一項莫具如下亦不得有與事實不符或誤導"},{"start":4322.344,"end":4340.992,"text":"或誤導閱聽人對身心障礙者及其家屬產生歧視或偏見第二項首二句如下身心障礙者涉及相關法律事件未經法院判決確定其原因前第三項如下任何人對身心障礙者不得公開為歧視之言行與委員劉建國等17人提案110121218號同"},{"start":4344.676,"end":4350.062,"text":"委員蔡易瑜等16人提案第74條第1 2項與委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號第1 2項同第3項與院版第3項同委員范雲等19人提案第74條宣傳品出版品廣播電視網際網路或其他媒體與報導"},{"start":4363.977,"end":4376.409,"text":"或播送與身心障礙者或疑似身心障礙者相關內容時不得使用歧視性之稱呼或描述並不得由於事實不符或誤導閱聽人對身心障礙者及其家屬相關人員產生歧視或偏見之報導身心障礙者涉及相關法律事件"},{"start":4382.094,"end":4397.027,"text":"未經法院判決確定其發生原因可歸咎於當事人之疾病或其身心障礙狀況宣傳品出版品廣播電視網際網路或其他媒體與報導不得歸因於當事人之疾病或其身心狀況身心障礙狀況委員盧憲一等16人提案第74條"},{"start":4402.202,"end":4427.742,"text":"第一項據莫增列下列文字 逗號亦不得將其障礙成因與其族群文化宗教或性別等特徵進行無科學根據之負面連結或標籤化對於原住民族身心障礙者之新聞報導應尊重其文化慣俗及隱私身心障礙者涉及相關法律事件未經法院判決確定其發生原因可歸咎於當事人之疾病或其身心障礙狀況"},{"start":4429.063,"end":4453.528,"text":"傳播媒體不得將事件發生原因歸咎於當事人之疾病或其身心障礙狀況予以現行法同委員萬美玲等17人提案第74條與委員王玉敏等17人提案同行政院委員李昆城等19人提案第76條第4項首據為身心障礙福利機構發現其所收容安置之身心障礙者遭受前條各款情形之一者"},{"start":4454.048,"end":4474.729,"text":"第六項如下第一項第二項第四項與前項通報流程後續處理及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之與委員劉建國等十七人一一零一二一八號同委員蔡易瑜等十六人提案第七十六條與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同"},{"start":4475.33,"end":4489.779,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等19人提案第77條第一項第二款如下二遭受第75條各款情形之一予以委員蔡易瑜等16人提案同委員蔡易瑜等16人提案第77條第二項第二句默四字為前項保護予以委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號同"},{"start":4497.103,"end":4512.194,"text":"行政院委員蔡易餘等十六人 委員李昆成等十九人提案第七十八條刪除行政院委員李昆成等十九人提案第七十九條第四項如下第一項費用由直轄市縣市主管機關先行墊付者得減拒費用單據"},{"start":4513.295,"end":4536.024,"text":"銀本計算書及前項負擔義務人得申請減輕或免除負擔之程序相關規定以書面行政處分通知義務人於六十日內返還與委員蔡易宇等十六人提案同委員蔡易宇等十六人提案第七十九條第一二四項與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號第一二三項同"},{"start":4537.864,"end":4566.762,"text":"第三項如下直轄市縣市主管機關認定前項各款情形鮮有困難者應邀集學者專家及機構法人或團體代表審查之行政院委員李昆成等十九人提案第八十條第一項第一句如下第七十七條第一項之緊急安置予與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同委員蔡易餘等十六人提案第八十條與委員劉建國等十七人提案"},{"start":4568.903,"end":4593.538,"text":"11011218號同委員范雲等19人提案第84條法院檢查機關或檢查機關於訴訟或偵查程序實施過程身心障礙者射送或需作證或接受調查時應確保其獲得平等的權利和機會促進其全面參與法律程序就其障礙類別之特別需要提供必要之協助一法律程序及設施設備的無障礙"},{"start":4595.539,"end":4616.315,"text":"確保所有司法程序對身心障礙者無障礙並包括提供無障礙的法庭設施設備和通道二 資訊的無障礙提供身心障礙者所需的法律資訊包括簡易閱讀的法律文件手語翻譯和其他輔助工具以幫助他們理解法律程序三 法律援助的可及性"},{"start":4617.055,"end":4645.855,"text":"擴大法律援助的範圍確保身心障礙者能夠輕易取得法律諮詢和支援並提供專業的法律服務四 訴訟程序的調整在訴訟過程中考慮身心障礙者的特殊需求並根據其情況調整程序以保障其參與權五 司法人員的培訓對司法人員進行專業培訓提高他們對身心障礙者需求的理解與敏感度六 建立申訴制度建立專門的申訴制度"},{"start":4647.796,"end":4664.196,"text":"建立專門的申訴機制讓身心障礙者在遇到司法困難時能夠有效反應問題並獲得幫助七 監測與評估建立監測機制定期評估司法系統對身心障礙者的服務效果並根據評估結果進行改善"},{"start":4664.856,"end":4683.601,"text":"刑事被告或犯罪嫌疑人因精神障礙或其他薪資缺陷無法為完全之陳述時直轄市縣市主管機關得依刑事訴訟法第35條規定申請法院同意指派社會工作人員擔任輔佐人精神障礙或智能障礙者涉及本刑三年以上之罪時"},{"start":4684.941,"end":4699.524,"text":"警察詢問及檢察官詢問應有律師陪同依刑事訴訟法第35條第一項規定得為輔佐人之人未能擔任輔佐人時社會福利機構團體得依前項規定向直轄市縣市主管機關提出指派申請"},{"start":4700.765,"end":4727.599,"text":"為確保身心障礙者平等禁用司法第一項機關所屬司法及警察人員應定期接受包含身心障礙權利與障礙意識等相關訓練第一項前項程序調整及必要協助措施之辦法應廣泛徵詢身心障礙者及其代表團體之意見後由行政院會同司法院定之委員范雲等19人提案新增第84條之一行政機關與身心障礙者所涉"},{"start":4728.419,"end":4752.906,"text":"所涉各類行政程序受理身心障礙者之訴願或其他對行政處分聲明不符之救濟程序時因究其障礙類別之特別需要提供必要之協助委員范雲等19人提案第85條與委員范雲等17人提案同行政院委員李昆成等19人提案第86條第三項文字罰還後面文字如下並得沒入同條項"},{"start":4754.646,"end":4781.336,"text":"規定之物品令其限其移除內容下架或其他必要之處置藉其為旅行者按次處罰第五項倒數第三句如下為行為人或負責人所屬公司予以委員蔡易餘等16人提案同委員蔡易餘等16人提案第86條第三項文字第74條後面增列文字第一項或第二項予以委員劉建國等17人提案11011218號同"},{"start":4784.915,"end":4799.519,"text":"行政院委員李坤澄等19人提案第88條第一項倒數第5據為案次處罰至其改善完成為止與委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號同委員蔡玉宇等16人提案第88條與委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號同"},{"start":4804.881,"end":4822.55,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等十九人提案第八十九條第一項與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號第一項同第二至第四項與現行法同委員蔡易瑜等十六人提案第八十九條與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同"},{"start":4823.51,"end":4848.477,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等19人提案第89條之一與委員劉建國等17人提案第85條之一11011218號同行政院委員李昆成等19人提案第89條之二身心障礙福利機構違反第63條之七第一項規定者處心臺幣6萬元以上30萬元以下罰還並令其限期改善藉其為改善者按次處罰"},{"start":4849.577,"end":4875.707,"text":"委員蔡依瑜等十六人提案第八十九條之二 與委員劉建國等十七人提案第八十九條之一 1101218號同行政院委員李昆城等十九人提案第九十條第二項續文莫具為案次處罰 與委員劉建國等十七人提案 1101218號同第九十條委員蔡依瑜等十六人提案第九十條 與委員劉建國等十七人提案 1101218號同"},{"start":4878.208,"end":4904.354,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等十九人提案第九十二條第一項及第五項莫具為並按次處罰與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同委員蔡易瑜等十六人提案第九十二條與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同第九十三條第一項續文第三具為應令其限期改善第二及第三款如下"},{"start":4905.074,"end":4921.347,"text":"二違反依第六十二條第三項所定標準中有關規模業務範圍設施或人員配置之規定三財產總額已無法達成目的事業之營運或對於業務財務為不實之呈報予以現行法第一項同第二項如下"},{"start":4922.128,"end":4948.46,"text":"前項評鑒連續二次為冰燈以下者處新臺幣五萬元以上二十五萬元以下罰款及廢止其設立許可不適用前項規定並應令負責人於一個月內對於其收容之全部身心障礙者予以轉介安置其無法辦理時由主管機關協助之負責人應與配合不予配合者處新臺幣二十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰款並強制實施轉介安置"},{"start":4949.64,"end":4965.095,"text":"行政院委員李坤成等19人委員蔡易宇等16人提案第94條與委員劉建國等17人提案11011218號同行政院委員蔡易宇等16人委員李坤成等19人提案第98條與委員吳麗華等18人提案同"},{"start":4969.099,"end":4985.471,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等19人提案新增第100條之一機關購學校事業機構法人或團體位移第16條第3項規定辦理合理調整之協商程序者應令其限期改善藉其為改善者處心台幣1萬元以上5萬元以下罰還"},{"start":4987.452,"end":5006.966,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等19人提案第107條第4項如下本法中華民國全年 全月 全日修正之第100條之一自公布後3年施行予以委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號同委員蔡易宇等16人提案第107條予以委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號同繼續宣讀修正動議"},{"start":5017.293,"end":5034.634,"text":"修正動議第二案委員吳麗華提案修正第五條本法所稱身心障礙者包括但不限於肢體精神智力或感官感官損傷者其損傷與他人或環境相互作用可能阻礙身心障礙者平等充分有效參與社會"},{"start":5037.247,"end":5061.621,"text":"提案人委員林月琴 王振旭 劉建國 吳麗華修正綜藝第三案第六條第二項改為身心障礙鑑定制度得依需要予以申請公作為特定社會福利與經濟給付如現金補助 付稅減免 定額禁用等資格判定之用不得以未領有身心障礙證明為由"},{"start":5062.902,"end":5078.757,"text":"排除申請人取得其他權益或服務之資格鑑定因採多面向評估方式包括身心功能表現活動參與限制及環境因素之評估並得參照國際健康功能與身心障礙分類 等國際準則辦理"},{"start":5082.628,"end":5106.895,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關受理申請鑑定時應交由衛生主管機關指定相關機構或專業團隊進行並於鑑定完成後10日內送達報告衛生主管機關應於10日內核轉該報告與直轄市縣市主管機關辦理予與行政院提案同提案委員 林岳請王振旭 劉建國 吳立華"},{"start":5110.191,"end":5112.706,"text":"修正綜藝第四案第七條"},{"start":5115.751,"end":5142.131,"text":"中央主管機關應建立身心障礙者需求評估制度作為服務資源分配之依據直轄市縣市主管機關對涉及於其轄區經醫評估制度審核符合規定者應核發身心障礙證明並具以提供所需福利與服務前向需求評估因應身心障礙者障礙類別程度經濟狀況經濟情況服務需求生活需求社會參與家庭支持需求等因素為之"},{"start":5143.973,"end":5172.98,"text":"有關需求評估之標準工具程序及專業人員資格由專屬管機關會同中央衛生主管機關定之未領有身心障礙證明者申請職務在設計個人助理或其他基於其障礙需求所必要之服務時服務提供單位或直轄市縣市主管機關得依現場觀察申請人提供之資料或專業意見以簡化程序評估其需求並提供必要之協助避免服務中斷或"},{"start":5174,"end":5193.353,"text":"产生制度障碍前项相关申请与评估程序之认定方式服务类型与适用原则由中央主管机关以执法定之其研拟过程因邀请身心障碍者及其代表性组织参与提案委员林月请王振旭 刘建国 吴丽华"},{"start":5199.099,"end":5210.465,"text":"修正綜藝第五案第三項第一款列為社會福利主管機關身心障礙者人格維護及權益保障"},{"start":5212.062,"end":5230.958,"text":"第二款 第三行 增列與醫療及生活輔具第四款 第四行 增列頓耗禁止職業歧視第五款 第三行 增列及其所屬空間場域第六款 第三行"},{"start":5232.279,"end":5259.549,"text":"增列無障礙交通設施及運輸服務第八款第三行增列頓耗金融服務系統無障礙設施及優化第九款第三行更生保護頓耗收容環境改善頓耗輔助提供與司法偵查期間輔助資源禁用第十款第三行增列及司法偵查程序進行中輔助資源禁用"},{"start":5260.689,"end":5263.439,"text":"第十二款第三行針列頓耗"},{"start":5266.021,"end":5293.877,"text":"第16款第二行增列頓耗遊戲場國家標準定第4項增列前項以外其他身心障礙權益保障事項由各相關目的事業主管機關依職權規劃辦理第5項前項所稱保障之事項應由本法中央主管機關定期召開跨機關政策協調會議與現行法同提案委員林月琴王正"},{"start":5294.797,"end":5320.443,"text":"連署人王振旭劉建國修正動議第六案第十條主管機關應以首長為召集人聆聘派身心障礙者包括兒童或少年代表身心障礙領域學者專家民間相關機構團體代表及各目的事業主管機關代表辦理身心障礙者權益保障事項其成員任意性別不得少於三分之一"},{"start":5321.463,"end":5350.78,"text":"前項身心障礙者代表學者專家民間相關機關及團體代表之人數不得少於總數二分之一其中具身心障礙者身份之人數不得少於二分之一並因兼顧各障礙類別之均衡第四項第二行增加頓號成員聆聘派程序與現行法同提案委員林月琴連署委員王振旭劉建國修正動議第七案"},{"start":5354.744,"end":5375.232,"text":"第十一條各級政府應至少每三年舉辦各障別各障礙程度居住都會區與原住民族地區各族原住民族身份之身心障礙者之生活狀況保健醫療輔助科技特殊教育就業訓練交通及福利支持人力長期照顧經濟安全等需求評估及"},{"start":5376.172,"end":5403.723,"text":"服務調查研究並出版公布調查研究結果予以現行法同提案委員林月琴聯署委員王振旭劉建國第八案增列第三項各目的事業主管機關應鼓勵輔導規劃或自行辦理身心障礙者適當之休閒娛樂及文化活動主動檢視且提供身心障礙者合適之活動空間並保障身心障礙者有平等參與活動之權利"},{"start":5406.745,"end":5434.284,"text":"第四項機關購學校事業單位法人或團體公開辦理教育招考禁用就業醫療居住矯正等權益事項因醫生性障礙者個別障礙需求與不造成不成比例或過度負擔這情況下進行必要之適當合理調整專案各目的事業主管機關應與本條文修正公布後一年內公告前項合理調整適用範圍協商程序及救濟管道之指引"},{"start":5435.744,"end":5454.129,"text":"機關構學校事業機構法人或團體因依前項指引公告後兩年內定定合理調整流程且公開揭示之欲現行法同提案委員林月請連署委員王振旭劉建國修正動議第九案第48條之一"},{"start":5457.523,"end":5479.123,"text":"第一項第三行增列日常生活第二項第四行增列會同中央目的事業主管機關及身心障礙者團體及身心障礙者代表參與第三項第二行增列主管機關應尊重身心障礙者之意願予以現行法同提案委員林月琴連署委員王振旭劉建國"},{"start":5482.833,"end":5497.191,"text":"修正動議第十案第五十條增列第十款輔具服務並第一原第十款改為第十一款同時增列第二項中央主管機關因結合社會福利醫療長期照顧交通教育"},{"start":5498.012,"end":5516.311,"text":"就業住宅 輔具 無障礙環境等各項支持服務資源制定自立生活支持服務指引為各級及各目的事業主管機關辦理本條第一項規定事項所依循提案委員林月琴 連署委員王振旭 劉建國修正動議第11案第52條"},{"start":5521.551,"end":5549.173,"text":"修正增列第三款資訊及通訊傳播第九款為住宅服務第三項改為第一項第三款所稱資訊及通訊傳播第三行增列遁號電腦及智慧型行動裝置第七行增列遁號聯絡遁號口述影像"},{"start":5552.116,"end":5574.256,"text":"予以現行法同題案委員 寧願請聯署委員王振旭 劉建國宣讀完畢好 有關於本次會議各項資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那我們現在要我們現在要請這個首與歡迎員還有同步的聽導員來就位了所以我們先休息無人中 好 謝謝"},{"start":5576.812,"end":5598.044,"text":"修正動議跟附帶決議附帶決議四案修正動議這是一案而已這麼厚的一案修正動議是很多條但是一個案子沒問題沒問題好謝謝"},{"start":6193.527,"end":6214.413,"text":"好 休息時間到 我們繼續開會現在來介紹本會會議的首尾歡迎員及同步聽打員那我們第一位是首議員李振輝先生好 謝謝你這樣會讓人家嚇到第二位是邱香菱小姐"},{"start":6215.367,"end":6244.661,"text":"好謝謝然後第三位是張慈珊小姐好謝謝好那第四位是沃哲文先生好謝謝這是手打員手藝員對不起然後接下來是這個聽打員是謝建斌先生在打字OK好謝謝謝謝再來是謝怡萱小姐在打字好"},{"start":6245.273,"end":6261.228,"text":"再來是陳靜佳 田達源再來是游漁益先生再來是黃之琳小姐最後一位是葉惠慈小姐 謝謝"},{"start":6264.994,"end":6277.359,"text":"好 我們現在再處理 本次交互之提案僅進行提案說明 不另做這個選擇那現在請新增提案的委員來說明提案料子每位委員兩分鐘 第一位我們請換雲 換委員來做說明"},{"start":6285.102,"end":6312.844,"text":"感謝昭緯今天的安排那三年前障礙者團體們組成障礙者黑紙革命聯盟提出身心障礙者權益保障法的修法的時候我就跟夥伴們一起合作提出了民間版的草案那上一屆我們一度在未還委員會進入實質審查但很可惜沒有完成那這一屆因為屆期不連續又重新來過那今天要再次感謝劉建國昭緯的排審"},{"start":6314.165,"end":6331.541,"text":"去年選舉我認識了陳俊翰律師之後很多次跟他在同台的場合常常跟他聊到他的國際經驗跟台灣的處境那我非常記得他說在台灣身心障礙者的權益就像在第三世界國家"},{"start":6332.482,"end":6354.915,"text":"那後來很遺憾他離開了也確立了我在這一屆的立法院內一定要努力完成他的遺願的決心所以呢我在這一屆的立委任期的第一次總質詢就是問院長帳權法那謝謝院長的承諾那我成立的為下一代而戰連線也把帳權法列為優先法案那很高興今天有實質審查"},{"start":6355.876,"end":6370.816,"text":"我想今天最重要的是我們要跟上CRDP的國際公約要落實由障礙者本人自己做決定的精神我的版本重點就是有障礙者參與決策提升比例建立障礙者諮詢機制"},{"start":6371.877,"end":6392.325,"text":"明定禁止直接或間接歧視提升障礙者權利保障受教育就業文化參與就就近就醫公平審判司法禁用還有很重要的落實自立生活納入服務的可靜性可負擔性原則那今天待會的審查那我希望大家可以支持我的版本以上謝謝好謝謝謝謝換委員接下來請林倩熙委員來做提案說明"},{"start":6409.05,"end":6427.341,"text":"謝謝主席 各位夥伴大家好本席在提出身心障礙權益保障法的增訂40條之一的修正草案目的最主要是在補足我們長期忽略的一個關鍵制度的缺口也就是身心障礙者在職場中的一個資訊禁用權"},{"start":6429.042,"end":6448.055,"text":"那麼隨著資通科技快速的這個發展那麼政府機關跟公營事業大量仰賴資通系統來處理公務那麼科技應用已經成為衡量工作表現的一個重要的條件那麼現行的法制呢雖然要求一定的比例來禁用身心障礙者"},{"start":6448.755,"end":6464.262,"text":"但沒有同步要求職場資通系統具備無障礙的設計導致許多身心障礙者進入職場之後因為系統的不友善沒有辦法充分發揮工作能力甚至喪失就業機會"},{"start":6465.943,"end":6479.959,"text":"聯合國身心障礙權利公約已經在我國具有一些法律的效力那麼在27條也明確的要求國家保障身心障礙者在平等基礎上享有公平且良好的工作條件"},{"start":6480.7,"end":6496.777,"text":"但是我們目前沒有在就業環境的資通無障礙這個部分做比較詳盡的一些設計所以來建立明確的法律義務也沒有完全落實公約所揭示之平等工作權的保障意旨"},{"start":6497.915,"end":6520.008,"text":"因此這個本案在增訂事實條之一明定各級機關政府機關還有公立學校及公營事業機構要提供身心障礙者執行業務所需之友善之通系統讓身心障礙者不是只有被禁用而是能夠真正在制度的支持下來參與成長並貢獻專業"},{"start":6523.61,"end":6538.327,"text":"以上的說明 希望各位同仁能夠支持讓這項促進平等就業資通訊禁用的人權保障制度得以落實謝謝好 謝謝謝謝林委員的提案說明接下來請林越請委員來做提案說明"},{"start":6553.925,"end":6557.147,"text":"林月琴委員請做提案說明謝謝合作"},{"start":6568.955,"end":6586.483,"text":"主席各位委員大家早安首先先謝謝昭偉今天安排生權法的逐條審查更要謝謝在這一路上不斷給予我建議想法跟我討論的身障朋友跟身障團體我們一起為身障權益努力"},{"start":6587.103,"end":6615.279,"text":"身權法已經多年沒有大修從我們接受身心障礙者權利公約首次國家報告國際審查的時候提出多項結論性意見要求我國進一步落實平等不歧視自立生活跟人身安全保障等核心精神就一直有全面檢討與修正的必要本次修法我聚焦在以下幾點第一強化政府責任跟跨部會整合"},{"start":6615.859,"end":6633.04,"text":"因應身心障礙者在資源可靜性無障礙環境生活支持及自立生活上的需求重新檢討中央跟地方主管機關以及各目的事業主管機關之權責分工二 落實權力公約精神保障參與與平等"},{"start":6634.562,"end":6650.697,"text":"修正相關委員會的組成確保以身心障礙者為主體保障其資訊的禁用與表譽權三 建立反歧視跟救濟機制明確定義身心障礙者歧視行為作為民事求償及訴訟輔助之基礎四"},{"start":6653.905,"end":6674.659,"text":"完善的无障碍与资讯禁用环境扩大公共资讯无障碍范围网络通讯智慧型手机装置第五保障就业交通与生活支持的权益修正定额禁用的一个计算方式增加用人弹性扩大就业基金用途六"},{"start":6675.359,"end":6698.193,"text":"加強福利機構的管理跟人身安全保障建立機構負責人消極資格制度強化通報義務與裁罰的機制對重大不當的對待行為加重處罰並確保受安置者及時轉介跟保護本次修法以身心障礙者權益為核心回應國際審查的意見"},{"start":6700.396,"end":6710.157,"text":"補強制度的缺口並兼顧實務可行性期待我國身心障礙者權益保障法更加完善也希望今天的審查可以順利我們一起加油 謝謝大家"},{"start":6712.11,"end":6732.777,"text":"好 謝謝林育群委員的提案說明那我們現在要來進行施行障礙者權利保障法部分條文的修正查案等33案之主條討論 那每個條文我們會先請行政單位做說明 那接著就請委員表示意見 那我在這邊也在委員會再跟各位做個報告 因為我們總共的條文要"},{"start":6733.927,"end":6743.613,"text":"版本就就超過應該是超過33案後來有提很多修正動議那具體的共總共條件應該不止173對應該不現在應該是不止173條次了應該是超過了"},{"start":6757.717,"end":6781.511,"text":"所以這個量也不會遙遙而託那我也希望各位委員就是我們是採這樣兩次花園好不好然後如果可以這個通過就通過再來就是修正通過如果不行我們就保留留在第二輪再討論因為我們的時間坦白講也很有限了謝謝但是還是會讓所有委員來做充分的討論謝謝"},{"start":6789.923,"end":6803.746,"text":"是不是可以先休息10分鐘因為修12跟13還沒有印來這樣是不是可以好 藝術組建議啦因為那個修正東修12跟13還沒有印來那是不是休息一點點時間讓他們印來之後我們再來主要討論好不好好 那我們現在休息因為第一條就有修正"},{"start":6816.164,"end":6827.574,"text":"絕對不可能休息很久你放心好我讓醫師組再把資料備齊我們再休息一個五分鐘好謝謝五分鐘好謝謝"},{"start":7923.919,"end":7948.745,"text":"好 我們繼續開會因為那個修正東一十二案因為資料蠻多 現在還在印不過我們還是請行政機關來先做這個說明那委員的提案有我們的廖韋祥 廖昭偉針對這個法條的第一案的第一條那是不是先請行政機關來做說明那資料我們後面再補 好不好"},{"start":7953.407,"end":7979.077,"text":"來第一條有修正冬季十二案然後這個然後還有廖偉祥委員的提案修正齁還有林月琴第十二案林月琴還有羅廷維委員不是不是你這邊有修正冬季十二啊對啊對啊這修正冬季十二案沒有錯啊"},{"start":7983.052,"end":7998.952,"text":"那個跟各位委員報告那針對第一條的部分因為那個修正動議我們還沒有看到那個是不是都我們等一下稍微再做一個補充的說明那而在提案的部分第一條行政院版是沒有修正的那有提案的是羅廷輝委員和廖偉祥委員"},{"start":7999.673,"end":8014.427,"text":"那兩位委員的內容相同和行政院的現行條文大概差異的地方那主要是大概中間有多一句話就是禁止一切形式之歧視另外在保障平等參與的部分兩位委員大概都增加公民"},{"start":8015.147,"end":8039.798,"text":"我們會建議是這個部分因為一般在第一條的體力在寫立法目的的時候我們大概都是用正面的方式來去做呈現而一般比較不會用這種負面禁止事項會列在第一條的宗旨而且這個因為要禁止歧視的部分其實跟後面的現行條文要去保障它的平等參與各個部分的機會"},{"start":8040.738,"end":8058.809,"text":"其實概念上是有相近的所以我們建議這個文字是不是可以不要加那另外公民的部分因為現在已經有在這個第一個是公民他本來就是他會他的生活的部分他是會融入在包括政治經濟社會文化各個層面"},{"start":8059.81,"end":8084.578,"text":"那另外如果是單獨公民權益的部分現在已經我們國家也已經有這個公民政治權利公約的部分那個有兩公約的部分大概都有一定的另外有一個機制能夠給他一定程度的保護所以大概我們會總體的建議是不是可以維持現行的條文以上建議好請六響委員好這一條我的修正主要第一條說明"},{"start":8085.885,"end":8104.935,"text":"我想要說明說為什麼要修正第一個依據CRPD的第一條的宗旨建議將這個第一條的這個立法目的在於修正以和國際節軌所以這個國際節軌很重要第二個是平等原則不歧視原則是生權公約中重要的精神"},{"start":8105.555,"end":8132.634,"text":"那虽然103年有通过所谓身权公约施行法但是实际保障身障者权利的作用法还是必须在身权法的规范之中那尤其未来也有可能涉及到这个法院判决要认定事实适用法律时为了让法院在面对身障者遭受到歧视进而影响其权益时有一个明确的适用基准"},{"start":8133.357,"end":8158.069,"text":"所以我是建議在第一條立法目的中將這個CRPD中重要的平等原則不歧視原則這個名列在法條文字中那同時也要將禁止一切形式之這個歧視納入立法目的不僅是與這個身權公約接軌我覺得也更代表是我國在人權的法治史上的一個大進步"},{"start":8158.891,"end":8183.189,"text":"那當然後面新增公民政治兩個項兩項目主要是除了生權公約將兩公約的精神納入規範外也是對應本次修法尤其是對應到第10條有關於身障團體的DPO參與各種這個法定會議的比例那所以這不僅是符合CRPD及兩公約將障礙者的"},{"start":8183.829,"end":8202.088,"text":"公民權跟政治權的這個權利的明確入法也符合障礙團體所強調的那個Nothing about us without us沒有我的參與不要為我做決定的這個精神所以這是為什麼這一條我覺得很重要要去修正的部分好 謝謝六委員"},{"start":8205.714,"end":8233.249,"text":"的說明我這邊還有一個修正動議是委員劉建國所提那最主要是你是可能要 不是可能啦對不起就是把把這個身心障礙者權利就把它攘劃下去那我們當然開宗明義第一條叫做為恢復身心障礙者之權益那我這邊把它增列幾個文字給行政單位還有各位委員做參考為恢復身心障礙者權利公約所示之各項權利"},{"start":8236.209,"end":8261.907,"text":"就是新興財產者權利公約所明示出來的各項權利我們就把它全部納入在第一條裡面那這樣是不是把全部都包進來那我在最後面是也剛剛陳如廖委員所講的我們就是要杜絕這樣的一個歧視禁止這樣的歧視所以我在這個促進其智力及發展的後面多了杜絕 隔離與歧視"},{"start":8264.025,"end":8280.502,"text":"杜絕隔離與歧視特制定本法這個也給行政單位跟給委員們做一個參考這樣的一個修正東西是不是比較符合提案委員還有行政單位是否能夠接受來做這樣的一個修正好請回應謝謝"},{"start":8282.813,"end":8308.053,"text":"已經打在這個螢幕上了那跟兩位委員報告那這個部分的話我們也去對了一下因為身權公約目前我們現行法律裡面同時還有除了身心障礙者權益保障法之外還同時我們也我國也已經通過身權公約的施行法那麼在身權公約的施行法裡面那它的第一條也是提到要這個"},{"start":8309.212,"end":8330.958,"text":"要實施聯合國生權公約它是要維護身心障礙者平等參與社會 政治 經濟 文化等的機會其實這兩個條文和生權法第一條目前兩個內容是有相呼應的所以我們會建議這個委員的建議當然是考慮到身心障礙者權利公約是不是要特別文字上列進來"},{"start":8331.898,"end":8356.157,"text":"不過因為這兩個法律其實目前大概都已經是現行而且都已經在施行中的法律所以我們會建議是不是有機會還是就是第一條的部分因為兩部法律都是規範到身心障礙者的相關的部分是不是能夠做一個比較一致性的處理我們還是建議是不是有機會可以維持現行的條文 以上好 請廖委員"},{"start":8362.541,"end":8390.893,"text":"對我覺得剛剛第一個我說要修改的這個說明喔其實也因為我們今天要這樣修所以你們現在第一條才有這樣的修正嘛對不對我們是希望把這個精神放進去好所以我覺得為了維護身心障礙者權利公約所示之各項權益保障其杜絕格力與歧視的這個部分我沒有堅持我就我認為這個精神上是有加入啦好所以我我覺得這個修正是"},{"start":8395.979,"end":8417.318,"text":"修正動議這就是修正的啊就是要把我們剛剛講的對我知道就是說因為我的修正條文是這樣寫那我剛剛有講過我的目的和他要修正的原因所以這個方式我沒有堅持我覺得我可以接受"},{"start":8420.902,"end":8446.718,"text":"好 六位響委員的意見基本上是可以支持這個修正動議那現在就看行政機關先擔任你們的意見如果是這個根據兩位委員的動議我們會建議文字上是不是我們在前面把這個權力公約所示各項權益的這個部分我們把它拉進來"},{"start":8447.734,"end":8471.003,"text":"那最後這個因為它有所謂杜絕隔離歧視的部分它還是一個等於是禁止事項的概念那跟一般立法的習慣上我們大概都是用比較正面的方式來去表述來這個相關族群的平等的這個文字所以我們建議是不是有可能就是我們把前段的部分拉進來以上好 請六委員"},{"start":8479.571,"end":8484.246,"text":"就是杜絕隔離歧視拿掉就對了對不對好 上面就照這樣可以嗎"},{"start":8487.406,"end":8516.005,"text":"那我再請衛務部再宣讀修正完後的 有沒有 有不好意思我想要問有沒有可能因為我想這個是一個蠻重要的精神當然你們希望不要負面的方式去表列還有沒有方式可以替代我們所謂的希望告訴大家說這個所謂的杜絕或隔絕或禁止歧視這樣子的一個方式當然一個是負面但是我想我想我想問一下行政單位有沒有可能有一些是用比較正面表述方式去去做這樣子的"},{"start":8517.64,"end":8537.265,"text":"宣誓我們第16條好像就是有反歧視的宣誓第16條在生權法的16條現行的條文第16條其實對於反歧視的處理的部分已經有"},{"start":8546.474,"end":8570.683,"text":"也已經有相關的規定那這次也有納到修正的條文裡面去那等一下應該會可以再做進一步或許可以再跟委員來徵詢看委員的那這裡可不可以加上一個反歧視的概念促進其自立及發展及這個或者促進其自立發展然後這個反歧視的一個概念這樣"},{"start":8572.181,"end":8598.196,"text":"如果是這樣子因為反歧視還是一個類似禁止或者是這樣的概念我們會建議如果是這樣的文字我們是不是我們跟同仁確認一下我們是不是參考CRPD那個公約的第一條它後面有一句話叫做促進對身心障礙者固有尊嚴之尊重但是它還是一個比較正面的方式可以 我覺得這樣子我們把這樣的文字把它打上去看看好不好"},{"start":8603.561,"end":8629.152,"text":"好請把這對文字打上去那請各位委員再參考主席來請黃熊委員我是覺得說現行的這個條文其實我們剛剛委員這樣子大家討論的那其實我覺得就維持現行的這個條文應該就可以了吧他們"},{"start":8633.328,"end":8649.165,"text":"對現在第一個我覺得是不然打出來看看因為其實這是有關於這個剛講到的他是要跟國際人權的一個接軌所以我覺得把這加上去是如果行政單位覺得可以可行的話我是覺得這個是可以加的"},{"start":8684.633,"end":8684.733,"text":"這樣可以嗎"},{"start":8688.925,"end":8718.36,"text":"好那邊也看得到你如果看不到是你的眼睛 對不起那第一條行政機關建議就這樣 各位委員有沒有其他意見要不要宣讀一次 宣讀一下 來"},{"start":8720.578,"end":8736.478,"text":"那第一條為維護身心障礙者權利公約所釋之各項權利保障其平等參與社會政治經濟文化等之機會促進其自立發展及固有尊嚴之尊重特制定本法"},{"start":8758.576,"end":8783.082,"text":"我想那個我們是不是在頭上再補充一下因為是為維護身心障礙者與身心障礙者權利公約所釋之各項權益保障其平等參與社會政治經濟文化等之機會促進其自力發展及固有尊嚴之尊重特制定本法"},{"start":8784.379,"end":8811.941,"text":"這樣主體的就是還是把主體那個是身心障礙者的部分我們還是把它留下來來 請王志旭委員我覺得固有尊嚴是尊重好像就到固有尊嚴這樣就夠了那另外的話我是覺得前半段有關於身心障礙者權利公約所示的各項權利這部分能不能把它納到立法說明"},{"start":8814.185,"end":8826.894,"text":"事實上會比較完整的告訴大家我們本來的這個立法說明裡面如果沒有有缺少這一塊的話把它拉進去會是比較適合而不是放在條文裡面以上的意見 謝謝還有沒有其他問題有不一樣的意見"},{"start":8839.301,"end":8857.638,"text":"我是認為還是一樣就是說為什麼第一條需要這樣寫是要跟國際的這個人權接軌跟國際接軌的一個宣示那第一條很重要的原因是他必須去告訴大家說未來我們後面所有的立法應該去好好的去參考"},{"start":8859.984,"end":8869.612,"text":"這個國際公約跟或是國際接軌的這個概念所以我是認為應該要加在這裡那如果行政單位我覺得他如果也沒有反對的話我不曉得我們的"},{"start":8870.68,"end":8896.241,"text":"委員們有什麼要會覺得這裡有問題我覺得也有點跌窗架屋因為為什麼前面就已經講說於身心障礙者權利公約所釋之各項權利那已經身權公約的各項權益的時候那身權公約的確這樣子寫他的宗旨本來有寫到這一塊就是他是寫促進對身心障礙者固有尊嚴的尊重"},{"start":8897.008,"end":8922.59,"text":"好那可是現在我們不是前面就已經講要生權公約所有的權利的然後後來我們又再加了這一句那如果要加那很多都要加了把生權公約的某一些東西再加進來嗎所以我才會講說而且剛好又對不太對等的是促進其智力然後頓耗發展又固有尊嚴的尊重體力上也不太對啊"},{"start":8932.311,"end":8951.173,"text":"應該 我這樣建議好不好 趙委是不是我們在擔心那個歧視的部分他如果在16條有處理嘛而且就我們就在16條裡面再看看怎麼樣來做修正那第一條應該這個這個後面這句話實在也我覺得是也是不用了如果前面大家可以接受"},{"start":8952.165,"end":8979.22,"text":"就是這個及固有尊嚴之尊重基本上是原本就應該尊重的所以不需要多說對這個可以拿掉然後就照剛剛這個署長建議的前面這樣為維護身心障礙者與身心障礙者權利公約所示之各項權利大大大後面就不再贅述這樣就照原有的條文您意思是說把後面及固有尊嚴之尊重拿掉對對對對對"},{"start":8980.831,"end":9009.607,"text":"然後上面前面的那個於身心障礙者權利公約所釋之各項權益對 留著所以那個廖召偉因為前面他因為講已經講到身權公約所釋的各項權益就包含這個就像剛剛你對 沒有所以現在就是說後面這句話這樣子反而會是比較好一點因為前面已經把全部都包否則的話你反而你只講說固有尊嚴那其他也沒包進去可是前面就已經"},{"start":9011.146,"end":9028.542,"text":"開眾民意就講到說只要申請權利公約所示的各項權益都要放進去好 那我們第一條的這樣的一個文字照這樣修正各位有沒有其他意見就依照這樣嗎 OK好 這樣"},{"start":9035.629,"end":9043.78,"text":"好 那我們就依照行政機關建議 這樣的一個條文的文字來修正後通過修正通過 謝謝 那我們繼續審查"},{"start":9050.144,"end":9074.018,"text":"行政院版是第二條然後有委員陳冠廷委員羅廷偉 委員羅美玲委員劉建國 還有臺灣民眾黨團還有蔡宜瑜 何清純委員廖偉祥 委員陳清輝委員林月琴 委員煥雲吳麗華委員 還有王玉敏委員羅美玲委員 還有李坤城委員還有修正東藝的"},{"start":9075.58,"end":9091.788,"text":"第5案還有13案 那修正動議第5案是林月琴委員等3人那第13案是王振旭委員等4人所提的這個兩個修正動議那我們先請行政單位來做說明"},{"start":9095.88,"end":9108.589,"text":"衛福部說明那這個部分其實各委員的版本那對於個別主管機關的部分都有有蠻多的相關的增修那包括"},{"start":9110.6,"end":9136.114,"text":"今天所看到的領域行為原版也有一個修正動議針對第一款的部分也有做一些文字的再處理我們會建議的是在這個部分文字的部分是不是有在第一款的社會福利主管機關的部分是不是要增加這個"},{"start":9138.564,"end":9149.951,"text":"在人格權益之後要不要增加權益保障的部分那我們是建議這個部分是現在其實會不會"},{"start":9152.008,"end":9169.324,"text":"因為他的權益保障的部分這個在本法裡面其實各個主管機關大概分別都有一個分工和處理所以如果從這邊是統一變成是這個身心障礙者相關所有的權益保障如果寫在這邊的話"},{"start":9170.285,"end":9198.163,"text":"那其實會變成是這個將來在權益保障的事項的規劃等等事項似乎會有點弱化其他主管機關的角色所以我們會建議權益這個權益保障的部分是不是可以不一定要甄列因為其他各個主管機關其實他所負責的事項反映的就是身心障礙者的權益保障相關的事情我們建議是不是有可能就不用甄列那第二個是"},{"start":9202.605,"end":9228.655,"text":"另外在這個范雲委員有建議是不是要新增休閒育樂主管機關的部分那我們會建議這個部分因為目前在國內有關休閒育樂他的那個內容其實非常的廣泛他可能目前實務上涵蓋到的部會會從經濟部文化部體育部甚至還有其他如果是連公園都算進去的話"},{"start":9229.335,"end":9253.027,"text":"那會涉及到的部分會非常的多那目前這個而且在條文裡面目前是比較沒有現在對應到所謂的休閒娛樂主管機關所以我們會建議這個部分是不是可以先不要增列那但是對於個別涉及到休閒娛樂事務的部分如果現行條文裡面哪一些場域是相對比較不足的"},{"start":9253.587,"end":9262.997,"text":"我們建議是不是在既有機關它的主管場域裡面有需要的我們可以去把它甄列出來這是我們的一個建議那另外這個"},{"start":9267.172,"end":9283.373,"text":"交通主管機關的部分那我們這一次有做一些修正那各委員的版本大致上是比較相同的然後另外在法務主管機關各委員的版本也都總體都還比較相近那警政主管機關這個是在"},{"start":9286.574,"end":9312.814,"text":"武力華委員的版本他有提到有一個相關司法禁用的部分那這個部分的話我們是建議因為現在在司法禁用的部分在16條在84條都已經有對於司法禁用的部分有一個統籌性的規定那是不是警政的機關是不是還需要額外再去訂我們會建議這個部分是不是有可能先不做增訂的動作"},{"start":9314.255,"end":9319.087,"text":"那在第12款文化主管机关的部分那现在"},{"start":9321.438,"end":9350.539,"text":"文字上大體上是相同的那武力華委員的版本主要是增訂對語言及文化認同那這個其實在不管是國家語言發展法或者是原住民基本法的部分現在大概都已經有一些相對應的要求那我們會建議這個地方似乎是可以因為其他的主管機關仍然也會有涉及到這個相關語文運用或者是"},{"start":9351.279,"end":9379.24,"text":"這個無障礙溝通的這個運用的部分我們建議是不是可以就不要甄列那另外這個有委員的版本是建議要甄列第司法主管機關的部分有甄列一款那這個司法主管機關的部分我們就尊重可能要請司法院這邊來做一個說明那對於這個在是不是能夠去做相關的甄列可能我們就尊重司法機關的看法那大概以上說明"},{"start":9381.4,"end":9406.298,"text":"好 等一下你們要相讓好 陳昭志委員 完之後范瑩委員然後陳清威委員 林月琴委員 廖偉祥 趙阿偉好 這樣順序好 楊偉耀我也不行好 對不起 怎樣好 那我先請這個司法院我們的法官先做一個說明一下再請第一位來做說明 好 謝謝"},{"start":9409.155,"end":9428.328,"text":"召委各位委員不好意思那個有關有委員有版本提到要在第二條增列司法主管機關的部分那我們今天書面報告有寫意見那我簡單報告一下就是中華民國的法律到目前為止沒有在訂定司法院擔任主管機關"},{"start":9429.569,"end":9446.804,"text":"尤其在第二條的體力下這個身心障礙權益是一個行政機關各個機關之間互助協力去就其所執掌事項分工合作去達成身份身心障礙者權益保障的這個目的可是我們司法司法院跟行政院是屬於不同的"},{"start":9447.904,"end":9470.195,"text":"那我們所掌理的其實是審判事項也就是司法的獨立所以把我們列跟各目的跟行政機關一起列在一起變成主管機關其實這個會造成我們行政跟司法的這個分際變得不明顯那有關我知道委員們都非常非常介意的是這個司法禁用權的保障跟這個程序的合理調整"},{"start":9470.835,"end":9486.482,"text":"這個其實在84條都有做明確的規範那我們司法院也一直有在推動跟監督跟規劃這樣的事項所以我們是漸請委員考慮是不是可以不要在第二條列針列這個以前都沒有看過的這個司法主管機關謝謝"},{"start":9491.895,"end":9506.413,"text":"這個前面講的法官講的很OK後面講的有點怪怪的以前都沒有看過了以前都沒看過你就叫我們不能頂實在是好我們第一位請陳昭志委員謝謝主席也謝謝那個司法院的說明"},{"start":9506.954,"end":9510.237,"text":"因為我們針對這個主管機關這一條主管機關的權責劃分我想再說簡單說明一下院版跟民眾黨版的尤其在第九款第十款的一些差異我們沒有堅持就是說我們要講提出幾個說明還有就教"},{"start":9522.947,"end":9544.683,"text":"因為現在目前第九款的部分整個保護機關的全都放在犯罪被害人的保護還有受刑人收容環境的改善跟更生的這個保護的面向這個部分我們全力支持但是我們民眾黨版本是進一步把一個重點放在目前制度上有所不足的地方包括身心障礙者在司法程序當中的"},{"start":9545.263,"end":9569.335,"text":"平等禁用跟程序參與權所以我們才特別在條文中明確指出司法及法務機關應該保障身心交感者在接受調查羈押訴訟或作證過程中的司法禁用並確保環境資訊服務語言與設施的無障礙所以我想用請教的一個態度請教在院版中司法禁用它有具體是哪一個機關來負責嗎"},{"start":9572.056,"end":9592.793,"text":"當然您剛剛說到不宜但是我們還是可以討論是司法院法務部還是停留在個別案件的行政協助呢那相同的第10款的部分在做這個警訊在警訊製作筆錄具體過程當中目前是不是有明確的規範要求提供溝通的輔具"},{"start":9593.934,"end":9616.734,"text":"易讀的資訊或其他的必要協助我們是希望能夠避免身心障礙者在訴訟程序當中因為他制度上的缺陷而被排除在外如果院本能夠認同司法金融的重要性我們當然期待在條文跟配套上能夠看到更清楚的制度上承諾而不是留給這個個案協調我們想我們主要的精神跟強調是在這個地方謝謝好再請煥雲委員"},{"start":9621.636,"end":9642.067,"text":"就統一 各位講完之後再請行政院做統一回顧好 謝謝那個謝謝昭偉剛剛周署長有提到說關於那個休閒娛樂的部分那您剛剛的講法如果沒有聽錯的話就是不適合放在這裡那可是我記得那天昭偉 劉建國跟我還有岳警委我們辦的公聽會的時候"},{"start":9644.269,"end":9652.555,"text":"當時周署長說可以回去研議而且我當時有提出一個具體的說至少交通主管機關下面管了這麼多國家"},{"start":9653.772,"end":9682.184,"text":"的那個娛樂設施喔那可以放在那裡那交通主管機關當天也表達說他們是ok的文字放進去那我剛現場又看到劉建國招委有一個修正動議他是直接把休閒娛樂放在衛生主管機關裡面的文字主管機關也加了我覺得也是可行喔那這個部分是不是至少交通部那個主管機關的部分因為交通部下面有管很多我沒講錯吧國旅"},{"start":9683.484,"end":9702.993,"text":"對不對相關的部分然後那那其他的主管機關有相關的不管是衛生主管機關或者第一項主管機關是不是也可以把休閒娛樂放進去因為有放跟沒放其實還是影響蠻大的以上謝謝好謝謝那請林月琴委員"},{"start":9704.56,"end":9727.131,"text":"好首先先針對於剛剛我們的周組長提的那為什麼我這邊會寫那個權益保障因為前面開宗明義就講說要針對於我們的身心障礙的權益所以我覺得你既然事實上是社政是比較主要主管機關所以我這邊還是加了一個權益保障"},{"start":9727.671,"end":9742.681,"text":"保障還有我不知道就是說今天衛生主管機關因為剛剛事實上是周組長在回答我知道我們後來修正動議所提的像衛生主管機關我有加一個醫療及生活輔具"},{"start":9743.542,"end":9766.968,"text":"因為為什麼要加醫療跟生活輔具因為輔具不是只有醫療輔具生活使用目的的輔具也應該納入到衛生主管機關的權責當中那我剛剛沒有聽到我們的衛生主管機關在回覆那剛剛只有勞工勞工主管機關有來跟我這邊溝通那我同意就是"},{"start":9768.948,"end":9783.103,"text":"禁止就業歧視這一塊那一樣的今天我想國土署也有來就是建設公務住宅主管機關這邊我也加了一個就是說及其所屬的空間場域這個應該要涵蓋在內"},{"start":9786.687,"end":9800.298,"text":"那交通主管機關就像范雲委員剛剛提的就是我們的召委前面有開公聽會我也有參與那身心障礙的夥伴都講說要有觀光休憩那我的"},{"start":9800.658,"end":9824.621,"text":"修正動議已經有加入所以我也沒看到交通部有做這樣的一個回應包含金融主管機關我們認為金融服務系統應該有無障礙設施跟優化這些服務的規劃那同樣也沒有聽到還有法務主管機關能不能有輔具提供跟司法偵查期間的輔助的資源 禁用性的這一塊"},{"start":9825.342,"end":9839.281,"text":"也都沒有沒有提到還有一個就是警政主管機關所以等一下是不是都能夠一併回覆還有經濟部的主管機關因為畢竟還是有耳哨的身心障礙者所以我們的遊戲場的國家"},{"start":9841.203,"end":9869.269,"text":"標準的訂定未來朝向共榮的這些當然有一些部分已經採用甚至我們那天也有討論到所以我增列第四項也就是說那天我講周組長有開會應該知道就是說我們最後希望採形象兒少的方法就是兒童遊樂場的方法針對休閒遊棄的這一塊要吝嗇平台所以我才會有多加了第四項就是說前項所稱的保障的事項應由"},{"start":9870.569,"end":9894.758,"text":"本法的中央主管機關定期召開跨機關政策的協調會議那才是能夠解決那天在公聽會裡邊我們他們本來是要單獨列一個休閒遊棄的一個主管機關可是基本上台灣沒有休閒遊棄的一個主管機關所以我們就說那比照而造的這種做法就是拉一個平台那我們也沒看到"},{"start":9896.927,"end":9913.195,"text":"衛福部有要怎麼寫嗎所以我們現在我增加的事實上是第四項來解套這件事情過去兒少事實上是沒有在法律明定事實上是衛福部自己做的可是現在我覺得在生權法這一塊有關休閒"},{"start":9914.415,"end":9929.558,"text":"休閒的這一塊是不是有這樣子的一個定期召開會議來解決這個問題因為現在牽扯到太多部會就跟兒童遊戲場一樣的問題所以我們希望能夠讓這樣子也就是說如果民定這些"},{"start":9930.239,"end":9946.711,"text":"主管機關的話那就會讓他們可以提供身障者可以去申訴還表達意見的機會甚至他碰到休閒遊戲有什麼問題的話可以在那邊做研討然後那你們也可以督促其他部會有牽扯到的可以去處理相關的問題以上好謝謝接下來請陳慶威委員"},{"start":9950.883,"end":9968.395,"text":"謝謝主席原本我的版本因為我看了第10屆那個時候要大修的時候有很多人提出來的修正那我覺得衛福部都有把它考量進去所以我的版本跟草案是一樣的那包括無障礙要納入名詞定義收容人環境改善的名字"},{"start":9968.775,"end":9996.645,"text":"用詞要予以修正就是現在國際社會的發展方向我是同意這樣子的修正不過剛剛有聽到比如說修氣然後或者是司法等等的我也希望等一下次長可以回應看國際社會他們是不是有另外怎麼樣的做法然後我們可以來參考謝謝好謝謝再請是廖偉強召委是不是好然後在廖偉強召委完之後再"},{"start":10004.468,"end":10009.093,"text":"王毓民委員先讓你講了所以請你謝謝王毓民委員好 那請廖昭偉 謝謝"},{"start":10012.273,"end":10034.308,"text":"我的部分呢 第一個是第三項第一款那線型跟院版的條文是用獨立生活啦那我的想法是說獨立生活是指自己依靠自己的力量不依靠別人來生活但是在CRPD的前言的第N款還有第三條的第A款以及第19條自立生活及社區融合"},{"start":10035.749,"end":10063.039,"text":"那还有他第26条等规定所以我这里是觉得是不是就把这个所谓的独立生活改为自立生活我觉得这样子也算是一个符合那也符合本法后面讨论到的所谓的自立生活那再来就是在这个部分就可以把用字跟定义可以清楚的界定所以我的建议我的意见是说在第三项的第一款我建议修改为自立生活"},{"start":10063.559,"end":10081.339,"text":"那差一个字把独立生活改为自立生活那再来就是第三项的第二款我的版本是说这个本来是将保健医疗修正为身心健康所以一来原条文在保健医疗后面又是医疗复健我认为这个用语是重复的"},{"start":10082.04,"end":10094.372,"text":"所以再來身心健康我認為涵蓋的面向比較廣不只是這個生理方面也包含心理層面我認為這個東西也蠻重要我們一直在強調"},{"start":10095.819,"end":10116.504,"text":"那当然这个因为本款是这个卫生主管机关的全责所以我也建议再增加所谓的整合性医疗及照护整合性医疗及照护所以因为障碍者除了医疗之外他的照护也很重要所以我认为说是不是可以让照护也纳入法条的文字我认为会比较全面"},{"start":10117.645,"end":10130.5,"text":"那再來我的第三點不知道你們這樣記不記得下來因為我還蠻多點第三點就是2022年有成立速發部所以我在想這個是不是也要增列一款是數位發展機關數位發展機關"},{"start":10133.183,"end":10157.103,"text":"再来就是主管有关于身心障碍他主要就是要主管身心障碍者之数位跟资讯无障碍的政策的制定还有规划跟执行与这个监督我认为这个东西还蛮重要的而且这个也有很多相关的倡议所以我认为这个因为有成立的速发部所以应该增列一款是数位发展机关"},{"start":10158.26,"end":10183.053,"text":"那再来我的第4点意见就是第11款原条文是体育主管机关但是我们现在运动部也已经在114年成立了所以我在这里我在想是不是同步修正为运动主管机关对不对这样子就会大家会统和好那当然第5点我的意见是说根据宪法增修条文的第10条第7项规定"},{"start":10184.053,"end":10211.105,"text":"这个国家对于身心障碍者的保险跟就医以及无障碍环境之建构还有教育训练与就业辅导跟生活维护与救助应该予以保障并辅助其自立与发展所以参照我们的这个宪政第十条跟其他各款所指的国家应辅助项目事项等皆为中央政府权责故中央政府"},{"start":10211.605,"end":10238.882,"text":"制定的法規政策地方政府依法執行共同落實身心障礙者的這個保障身心障礙者所以有關於本法所需的經費應以中央政府明定於公務預算及各基金之應好這是我以上五點的建議在第二第二條的修正的部分謝謝好接下來請楊耀委員發言謝謝主席我"},{"start":10240.939,"end":10257.615,"text":"我很高興看到院版呢就是把交通主管機關的部分加了無障礙和運輸服務那我還是利用這個機會因為法律的制定就是就是一種規範可是實際上的"},{"start":10261.912,"end":10289.311,"text":"的各項狀況我問一下交通部廖副市長廖副市長是這樣子因為其實有關無障礙的交通設施我已經提了很多次就是說像澎湖它有很多小離島因為它的船舶是小的"},{"start":10290.416,"end":10315.297,"text":"所以它跟馬頭之間其實是有落差的我們一般人就是有樓梯可以走那身心障礙者我很常看到離島居民甚至於是遊客是必須要靠好幾個人扛扛著上船這個問題我已經反應好幾次"},{"start":10319.318,"end":10335.07,"text":"那像離島跟偏鄉可能它的公車也就是小型公車它的無障礙設施的建置可能也都是必須要特別的規劃"},{"start":10338.917,"end":10363.079,"text":"這個都需要經費那像我大概知道像潮差那個可能就是必須要有直立式的升降機懂我意思嗎那這個到底布裡面因為像澎湖那種財政那麼困難的地方然後"},{"start":10364.939,"end":10377.648,"text":"離島線很多澎湖有住人的島嶼除了澎湖本島以外還有18個所以這個對於地方財政來講是一個很大的負擔布里邊這邊對於"},{"start":10380.194,"end":10396.545,"text":"對於相關的就我剛才敘述的這個事實你們目前就修法過了以後是一定要去做目前你們有沒有辦法在修法之前就是在這個時候做一點什麼事"},{"start":10397.679,"end":10417.493,"text":"因為有很多東西是不帶入法就必須要做的對不對請副市長大概說明一下就可以我這邊跟召委還有各位委員報告就是說其實在這個法律還沒修正之前其實部裡面其實在針對港口的部分就是剛剛委員有特別提到"},{"start":10417.933,"end":10438.009,"text":"可能有一些浮動碼頭那個可能過去都已經在一直在做但可能受限到那個相關的計畫的經費還有一些我們會從比較大的港口什麼開始開始來做那至於委員剛剛所關心到一些離島的那個部分我是因為其實相關的案件在我們部裡面自己的無障礙的"},{"start":10438.969,"end":10453.18,"text":"生權的小組裡面其實都有一些討論因為我們有相關的無障礙委員在那邊他們也有反映過類似的一個這樣的問題但是因為所涉及的一些工程的經費等等這可能還要在後續我們會再主案再來做處理"},{"start":10454.261,"end":10479.481,"text":"副市長我提不是要你們馬上做啦我只要你們趕快做啦那我也提醒一下就是福東碼頭的部分呢並沒有辦法完全解決各港口的問題所以可能還是你們趕快跟地方政府去做個討論跟協調看有沒有什麼工具是可以最適用的"},{"start":10481.002,"end":10495.991,"text":"因為坦白講就是我們站在岸上看那麼多人扶著一個身障人士上船下船那種風險"},{"start":10498.124,"end":10519.676,"text":"還有就是觀感我們內心激起的激動其實還滿高的好不好這個事情不要再拖了啦也不一定要等到立法完成啦因為很多東西不是一定要有法律才要做其實這個問題我也已經"},{"start":10520.396,"end":10538.722,"text":"提了很久了啦你們趕快把經費到位跟地方政府去協調看怎麼處理好不好這個可能也不只是澎湖的問題啦就離島偏鄉搞不好離島蘭嶼也會有這個問題好不好好 謝謝主席好 接下來請王玉民委員發言"},{"start":10539.83,"end":10555.587,"text":"好谢谢主席我想我们这次的修法应该就是希望可以有更前瞻性的概念进来所以刚刚其实有很多委员提到了对一个身心障碍者来讲他的行动自由他的旅游他的休闲"},{"start":10556.647,"end":10584.399,"text":"這個這一塊我覺得應該是要放入考量但是現在這個部裡面的這個版本所提出來的在有關於休閒觀光的這一塊的確是沒有提到那我認為這個部分應該要放進來那剛特別提到了交通主管機關現在的觀光署就在這個交通部所以交通主管機關這邊應該要增加就是有關於他們的觀光休閒"},{"start":10585.98,"end":10608.682,"text":"娛樂的部分我認為可以加在這個交通主管機關這邊應該要再增列那另外一個就是針對他們的司法權益的問題剛剛司法院是有提到說沒有法是這樣子寫把這個司法機關納入但是我們在行政院的版本或各委員的版本都有提到了"},{"start":10609.503,"end":10628.903,"text":"法务主管机关那这一块的确我们可以看到身心障碍者他有不同的障别他不是只有在法务部写的好像就是在入狱服刑的时候才去改善这一些生活条件不是这样子他走这个司法的历程的时候那他那个整个过程"},{"start":10629.463,"end":10654.511,"text":"是不是我们都可以提供他必要的在整个司法诉讼的过程当中对于身障者他该有的这一些服务我们都有提供到那这一块我觉得也是被忽略的其实也没有放进来那这一块应该是要加进去那另外这个原来的体育主管机关现在我们精心设了这个运动部那我觉得这一些障碍者"},{"start":10655.011,"end":10679.275,"text":"他们其实在有关于运动的相关的这一些设施可进性或者是推动方面我认为既然已经是专业的运动部已经成立了应该这个运动部应该要有更积极的角色跟责任在这一块应该要去促进那原来的写法可能也是比较消极式的写法"},{"start":10679.855,"end":10703.295,"text":"那是不是也可以就是他們應該要去多辦一點這些身心障礙者各式各樣的體育的活動去促進他們的這個運動然後讓他也擁有這樣的一個權益我覺得這幾項應該是這個主管機關可以在原來的版本裡面應該可以再去鎮定的部分以上謝謝"},{"start":10711.072,"end":10728.839,"text":"好那請署長這邊同意做一個回應謝謝謝謝各位委員的指正那我想綜合各位委員的意見我大概就幾個部分先來做一些相關的說明那第一個就是在這個"},{"start":10730.719,"end":10749.728,"text":"前一次公聽會之後那個召委辦的公聽會之後其實我們大概有就那天討論的事項我們有準備一些文字上修正的想法我們現在有先準備一個大概建議的文字大概會有幾個地方我們會建議可以來做我們已經有先擬議來做一個處理"},{"start":10751.249,"end":10769.763,"text":"那第一個是有關大家很關心的休閒的部分那我們會建議在交通主管機關的這個部分那我們就把它把第一個就是把觀光旅遊的這一塊我們就很明確的就依照現行政府分工的方式我們把它納進來"},{"start":10773.786,"end":10787.472,"text":"那第二個是針對法務主管機關的部分那我們也甄列了收容環境改善跟更生保護的相關事項我們甄列到法務相關的主管機關那另外這個有關輔具"},{"start":10790.493,"end":10811.15,"text":"那另外在前一次公聽會同時已經有提到的是不是我們來去設一個平台來處理相關的事項的部分這個部分我們行政部門一定會來做那這個部分那我們本來那個不只我們可以透過一個我們會建議也許是透過一個附帶決議或者是連任委員也已經有一個"},{"start":10811.83,"end":10836.781,"text":"今天已经有一个附带决议的部分我们大概可以透过附带决议的内容上面我们去把这个文字体现出来这个部分我们会配合来做一个操作那这个部分怎么样去未来去建立一个平台来去这个回应身心障碍者他的这个休闲娱乐的部分那这一块我们可以来做一个平台来跟相关部会做一个协调"},{"start":10837.481,"end":10865.196,"text":"那各位委員其他有相關有提到的一些生活的事項我大概做一個簡單的回應第一個有關輔具的部分那我們現在在衛生主管機關的部分因為衛生主管機關主要是我們的FDA那他的工作大概是針對醫療器材的管理所以大概會比較聚焦在醫療的醫療相關的輔具那但是生活輔具的部分其實現在現行的條文的"},{"start":10868.598,"end":10885.792,"text":"經濟主管機關的部分行政院版應該是在第十六款所以身心障礙者輔具的國家標準產業推動的部分以及商品化的部分其實現在是已經有分工的"},{"start":10888.089,"end":10905.397,"text":"那衛生的那醫療輔具的部分的話是在第二款的醫療輔具所以我們建議這個部分似乎是可以也許不一定需要去做一個修正的動作他的經濟主管機關已經可以做一個已經有一個搭配的相關的處理那第二個就是有關在"},{"start":10906.718,"end":10930.095,"text":"这个第一款有关社会福利主管机关这个独立生活是不是改成自立生活的部分我们觉得跟第一条的部分可以做一个呼应这个部分我们完全接受然后接下来在运动主管机关那个原来体育主管机关的部分那当然配合组织的改造我们修正成运动主管机关这个部分我们完全可以配合来处理"},{"start":10930.755,"end":10955.03,"text":"那另外勞動主管機關的部分那這個先前有委員提案要增列這個禁止職業歧視的部分那這個內容我們沒有問題那但是文字的部分就是職業歧視我們建議就是用現行法這個相關法規的做法變成用就業歧視"},{"start":10956.371,"end":10957.112,"text":"我們會建議做這樣的處理"},{"start":10963.547,"end":10992.911,"text":"那其他另外廖委員有提到這個經費的部分不好意思我好像沒有看到是有提案或者是動議但是也跟委員報告一下那目前身心障礙的這個相關的經費其實是在中央跟地方都有編列那他是搭配了這個現行條文裡面中央主管機關各有權責所以大概都會分別有來做編列的動作那所以只要在中央主管機關這邊只要在經費許可的情形之下"},{"start":10993.431,"end":11016.229,"text":"那我們怎麼樣來跟地方來做一個合作這邊我們會持續的來做努力那另外有提到很多的這個其他個別部會的部分那我是不是容許這個跟招委辦公室的容許相關的部會來做一個個別的就個別的事項來做一個補充跟說明對啊我知道我剛剛就你講完說我就要請其他單位表示意見"},{"start":11017.376,"end":11026.677,"text":"廖偉祥我也要先講是不是對 不好意思因為剛剛還有提到一個衛生主管機關我剛剛說把你們的保健醫療是不是改成身心健康這件事情"},{"start":11031.755,"end":11051.63,"text":"第二款第三項第二款跟委員報告因為那個保健醫療目前這個一般來我們去看的時候身心障礙者他的這個醫療的總體保健跟醫療從前端的預防到後端的治療大概都已經我們覺得是有南瓜"},{"start":11052.23,"end":11076.617,"text":"那但是如果是身心健康的部分那它的那個內涵實際上操作的內涵的部分是不是還會在這個一般我們對健康以WHO的定義來講它會包括身體心理及社會的氏族狀態所以它會變得更廣泛可能已經超出醫療的範疇我們建議是不是有機會維持現行的現在這樣的文字的一個表述它比較聚焦以上"},{"start":11077.757,"end":11082.563,"text":"是因為你這裡有保健醫療後面又醫療復健這個會不會有點重重複對"},{"start":11088.362,"end":11108.644,"text":"第一個這個有點重複然後再來就是這個因為身心健康其實也都算是這個衛生主管機關可以去做的事情沒有錯啊當然你要把它擴大很大很大那是另外其他的部會可是因為衛生主管機關他本來其實像我們在衛福部或是什麼常常也都是在討論身心健康的議題嘛那我是認為這個"},{"start":11110.426,"end":11121.155,"text":"本來他當然涵蓋到其他部會他就會去討論但是因為你這裡有個保健醫療又一個醫療復健其實也有點重複然後有點就是感覺語意沒有很明確啦然後還有另外一個對我剛剛有提到那個所謂數位發展部的部分好像也沒有把它加上去嘛因為現在我們2022年有成立速發部嘛那是不是應該增列一款數位發展機關"},{"start":11138.658,"end":11166.438,"text":"因為其實身心障礙者只是數位跟資訊無障礙的這個部分也都應該要納入考量好等一下林益勤委員完之後再換陳新輝委員好主席等一下是不是可以請相關的部會回應我們我的那個修正動議有進來嗎那我先問一下我們州署長這邊還是沒有回應我因為我剛剛講說"},{"start":11167.839,"end":11186.916,"text":"那個權益保障這一塊你有納入說要社會福利主管機關可是我的裡面內文上有寫那個權益保障還有衛生主管機關因為我覺得不是只有醫療輔具還有生活的輔具衛生主管機關應該也要變成是你的主責"},{"start":11187.857,"end":11209.551,"text":"所以這是不是可以去做說明還有交通主管機關就觀光休憩這一塊因為我有寫進去建設跟公務住宅的這一塊也就是說公共設施不是只有公共設施還有它所屬的空間場域都應該涵蓋甚至剛剛講金融主管機關法務主管機關跟警政"},{"start":11211.065,"end":11234.245,"text":"還有呢就是經濟主管機關針對遊戲場所以等一下是不是主席可以請我們的各個今天部會有來然後請他們一併做說明 謝謝有了 我就一直要請啊你們就一直問啊所以我就沒辦法請啊好 接下來請陳清威委員謝謝 謝謝主席我是要呼應廖祥偉委員因為我們剛剛看了一下今天來的主管機關並沒有速發布"},{"start":11234.825,"end":11262.573,"text":"那來 有沒有有有有那等一下再請速發部回應因為就這個國際公約強調的資訊禁用那我們現在剛好在推AI智慧國家如果漏掉生長者這一塊的話就把他們拋在數位時代的後面了因為現在每一個APP的設計幾乎我們每天都需要用可是如果這個APP對於生育障礙者而言它會有一個障礙"},{"start":11264.209,"end":11288.137,"text":"這會有一個這個barrier就是他沒有辦法跟大家一樣平權的話那他的生活就沒有辦法達成很多事情所以廖祥偉有增訂那一條嘛對不對就是數位發展主管機關然後他的責任是身心障礙者資訊平權數位落差縮減無障礙網路平台行動應用程式還有資訊系統的規劃推動監督謝謝"},{"start":11292.899,"end":11296.287,"text":"好 謝謝補充報告一下我們今天來的總共45個單位應該"},{"start":11299.521,"end":11327.091,"text":"應該不會有漏網之魚 如果有再請提醒一下然後第二個 第二件事情是 還有一個修正冬季第十二案這是我提出來的 也是針對各個部會要把這個修正慾都放進去的所以我們也聆聽這麼多委員的意見是不是有其他的這個主席的各單位的代表要對第二條的部分針對你們所執掌的這樣的一個範疇有什麼意見要表達的"},{"start":11328.271,"end":11329.612,"text":"來一個一個來好來 勞動部這裡說明一下林委員提的那個部分非常謝謝委員就是也同意禁止就業歧視的部分更具象化的在這個勞動主管 勞工主管機關裡面被呈現那劉 劉昭偉 劉委員所提的這一個"},{"start":11352.53,"end":11358.835,"text":"修正動議裡面有提到勞工主管機關對身心障礙者之職業重建就業促進與保障勞動權益休閒娛樂運動適應體育文化參與無障礙禁用這一段"},{"start":11367.922,"end":11385.999,"text":"對勞動部來講可能有執行上的困難因為他有個別的目的事業主管機關我們現行有一些可能有一些勞工的服務中心等等在我們後續的一些無障礙的服務上面也受上相關的目的事業主管機關的規範以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":11389.468,"end":11408.918,"text":"好這是勞動部的花園接下來還有哪個單位王三世法務部是跟主席還有各位委員報告有關那個委員們很關切司法機關為了確保身心障礙者平等禁用司法在這個特別是刑事訴訟偵查程序中有沒有提供"},{"start":11409.938,"end":11427.647,"text":"環境無障礙還有這個輔具協助以及這個相關偵查程序中的溝通程序等輔助資源的禁用這些事項那法務部對於這個保障相關程序就是身心障礙者人權的程序參與的重要性都很"},{"start":11428.487,"end":11444.867,"text":"表示認同那事實上現在有現行的法制上我們對這個身心障礙者權益的保障已經有許多在相關的法律中有明定那我就舉用三個部分來跟大家說明比如說像在環境上面那因為這個檢查機關我們辦公處所"},{"start":11447.742,"end":11463.898,"text":"還有偵查空間的設置我們都已經依照相關的建築跟無障礙規範逐步改善那我們也是個案的需要調整偵查的場所或動線的安排來降低身心障礙者參與程序的障礙那在輔具的部分呢"},{"start":11464.798,"end":11492.851,"text":"偵查期間輔助資源的提供這些相關的設備涉及人力還有這個設備專業服務的資源配置那整體的規劃跟供應我們也需要依據現行的行政體系的分工那與身心障礙服務跟社政等主管機關要協力辦理那檢查機關在職權的範圍內我們都有持續的檢討偵查實務的需求然後透過跨機關合作機制來促進"},{"start":11494.211,"end":11517.881,"text":"身心障礙者在偵查程序中獲得必要的協助那特別重要的是大家很關切的偵查中輔助資源比如說偵查程序中的溝通跟程序上的協助那相關的這個規定其實我們現行的身權法的84條有規範那事實上我們這幾年在刑事訴訟法也有很多條"},{"start":11519.281,"end":11536.368,"text":"修正的規定比如說直接的規定就是在刑事訴訟法的27條第三項就是被告或犯罪嫌疑人因身心障礙至無法完全陳述的者應通知家屬包括法定代理人配偶親屬來為他選任辯護人還有第31條的第一項"},{"start":11542.891,"end":11567.083,"text":"還有第5項就是有強制辯護的規定還有偵查中通知法服指派律師的規定另外35條的第3項也有修訂就是輔助人陪同在場的規定另外刑事送法的第93條之一的第1項第5款第6款都有為等候辯護人輔助人或者是同意"},{"start":11568.643,"end":11593.593,"text":"等候的時間不記錄24小時的這些相關的程序規定另外在第99條就溝通障礙者的通譯跟文字的方式如果被告是聽覺或語言障礙或者語言不通的可以由通譯傳譯這些都有明文的規定而且這些規定也准用於其他受詢問或詢問人士身心障礙者的人士"},{"start":11595.203,"end":11617.544,"text":"還有一個第186條的就是有關拒絕制度對心智障礙者的例外就是證人原則上要命拒絕但是如果因為精神或其他心智障礙不了解拒絕意義或效果的就不得令其拒絕這些都是我們現在已經在刑事訴訟法有大幅修訂的規定也是一個屬於輔助資源的禁用"},{"start":11618.365,"end":11646.826,"text":"那這個另外身心障礙者權益保障法的第61條也有支援一些手語同步聽打這些實務上我們也會跟刑事訴訟法的通益制度來搭配那有關這個司法禁用權的意義就是人民有權在合理有效可負擔而且不受不當障礙的情況下像法院或者是準司法機關請求救濟獲得公平審判實質裁判的權利那檢查機關在這個部分其實都"},{"start":11647.706,"end":11658.964,"text":"已經盡力的在符合相關的法制規定下來做相關禁用的輔助跟實施落實相關的規範還有保障以上"},{"start":11660.771,"end":11677.494,"text":"好 要不要請他們一併還是對 因為他那個部分他講得很好我只補充就是說既然法務部做得這麼好我們應該要在他的那個主管機關的事項裡面把剛剛偵查過程當中給予的這個障礙者協助這一些項目"},{"start":11677.995,"end":11702.16,"text":"就是大的方向應該要寫進來因為你現在這個寫法感覺法務主管機關做很少其實如果過程有提供協助的話我建議文字加進好不好看參事你研議一下怎麼你們的主管機關的權責再加一下是跟委員報告因為像這樣的規範我們因為已經刑事訴訟法已經大部分都有規範到是不是還要在這個身心障礙者權益保障法"},{"start":11713.537,"end":11716.939,"text":"是跟委員報告我們的生意障礙者權益保障法現在84條其實它的規範就有"},{"start":11728.516,"end":11734.653,"text":"喔 好 那我們再演繹一下我們看看怎麼樣的文字是 好 以上"},{"start":11735.987,"end":11763.841,"text":"好對不起那個陳委員完了之後再換廖昭偉好那個其實我是很期待聽到那個法務部跟那個警政署這邊有什麼樣的回應那確實剛法務部所提的在很多的法律規定已經有對這個身心障礙者有很多友善的這個條文上的一些改進那但是我很認真聽就是說我覺得在整部法裡面大家"},{"start":11765.001,"end":11779.512,"text":"都很著重在身障者的部分因為就是說大家看一看可能就會很明顯知道但我要在這邊特別要提醒就是對於有些高功能例如自閉症的這一群大朋友小朋友們"},{"start":11780.433,"end":11806.855,"text":"那當然在像剛剛有法務部有提到這個99條這個同意的部分那其實對於這些高功能的人他們其實雖然看起來是知見權有時候語言上表達你聽起來可能聽不出什麼但是我覺得在可能對於一些文字的理解上他們還是某種程度上需要翻譯的"},{"start":11808.256,"end":11834.524,"text":"所以這個部分我希望在也呼籲我們所有的這個立法委員同仁還有今天與會的各個單位那在對於我們可能在這些看不出來的但是有零手冊的這一群我要拜託你們可以也留意到不是說沒有辦法沒有辦法講話"},{"start":11836.044,"end":11847.933,"text":"才需要翻譯 也不是這樣我想這一群在很多時候是被大家忽略的我想在整個做這樣很重要的提醒 謝謝好 陳勤惠委員對不起 廖翔維不是有舉手"},{"start":11856.374,"end":11876.439,"text":"然後我就請國務法官謝謝因為剛剛這個法務部是講到很多刑事訴訟法裡面的東西那我這邊是希望不管是司法院或是法務主管機關可以再講一下你們要怎麼改善這整個環境和流程因為這個我想是大家這個身障者身心障礙者的很關心的一個點如果"},{"start":11877.319,"end":11891.879,"text":"這個部分因為剛剛這個我們法務機關主要是說刑事訴訟法相關的那可是包含現在那民事的時候呢行這個其他的這個相關的部分怎麼去這個處理或者是怎麼去改善然後請你們說明一下謝謝"},{"start":11894.073,"end":11909.382,"text":"好我先請郭委員來做謝謝謝謝各位委員的指正那我大概說明一下那剛剛有提到說目前各級法院的這個身心障礙保障事項就是趙執委員提到這一塊就是有司法院在推動跟規劃的"},{"start":11910.302,"end":11936.404,"text":"那我們去年就有跟身障團體開了一個諮詢會議以後我們就公告了一本這個身心障礙者禁用司法的指引去告訴各級法院的法官你必須做什麼合理調整跟程序調整來適應身心障礙者的需求那我們在這一本裡面也有特別特別提到剛剛有委員關注到的針對自閉症的開庭注意事項我們也通通都寫在裡面所以我們一直有在做"},{"start":11937.345,"end":11962.618,"text":"這是第一個那第二個還要跟委員報告是有關剛剛提到訴訟程序中的輔助我們現在有同步聽打有手語翻譯這些我們通通都已經建制好了也有在使用了還有一個特別的事就是我們最高法院114年才做出一個判決他有明白的指摘下級分法院如果在訴訟程序中沒有應應身心障礙者的需求去做程序調整這個程序是違法的"},{"start":11963.138,"end":11982.164,"text":"所以我們是依據在我們司法機關裡面我們是認定它是有一個效力的規定在訴訟程序中就必須要去做到這些司法禁用合理調整跟平等保障這是要特別跟這個各個委員說明的那剛剛張偉提到這個不只適用在行政這個指引不只適用在"},{"start":11982.964,"end":12011.442,"text":"形式訴訟程序在各個訴訟程序裡面都有適用都有適用然後再來就是我剛剛有稍微看了一下CRPD那CRPD其實也是把13條就是關於司法禁用跟33條跨政府組織的協力其實是分別立的所以我們才會說體力上我們還是建請委員考慮不要把我們列在主管機關裡面但是在84條那邊我們沒有意見我們司法院一定會去負責推動規劃跟協助這個以上跟各位委員報告跟說明謝謝"},{"start":12015.844,"end":12032.338,"text":"好還有單位要說因為剛剛法務主管機關沒有回應我這邊提到的就是我的有提到就輔具提供與司法偵查期間那個輔助資源的禁用信號為什麼因為"},{"start":12034.119,"end":12056.464,"text":"認為整個就是你的整個物理環境資訊 服務 語言跟設施的無障礙都要有甚至資源是不是可以有禁用的那樣所以我們檢調主管機關應該確保身心障礙在調查跟稽查期間的一些司法權益那這些東西的提供是不是有可能所以請我們的法務主管機關能夠回應來 王城市"},{"start":12063.683,"end":12084.693,"text":"是剛剛我在提那個說明的時候似乎應該是有提到那個輔具的部分因為這個是涉及人力設備跟專業服務的資源配置那這個整體的規劃跟公益我們依照現在的行政體系分工我們還是需要跟設政跟主管機關來協力辦理那我事實上我們檢查機關我們在我們職權範圍內"},{"start":12086.494,"end":12096.27,"text":"也都有持續的檢討我們的食物需求那我們也希望是能夠透過掛機關的合作機制來促進他們在偵查程序中獲得必要的協助"},{"start":12096.789,"end":12124.458,"text":"那這個部分是就輔具的部分那輔助資源部分就是包括通譯還有辯護人還有一些這個其他相關的輔佐人這些輔助資源其實我們的刑事訴訟法相關的規定這幾年都有大幅的修正符合希望能夠落實身心障礙者的保護那不曉得這樣子有沒有回答到委員的疑問以上"},{"start":12126.772,"end":12142.315,"text":"好來再請要做補充的來兩位好我對不起我先委員會處理一下時間跟各位委員做個宣告是不是這樣因為已經超過12點那是不是這第二條我們第二條有17個委員的提案然後有三個修正動議"},{"start":12143.816,"end":12171.596,"text":"是不是也等下兩個行政單位要做說明再做說明那說明完之後我們就休息了然後也請各單位針對個別委員有提案的部分是不是再做一下說明然後再請衛務部再做第二條的整個文字上的一個修正整合然後再列印出來給所有委員做參考不然這樣審下去可能到下會期不一定還會OK好來請說明謝謝那我們就會休息到兩點喔OK好謝謝"},{"start":12172.076,"end":12195.342,"text":"交通部這邊第二次報告針對剛剛委員所關心的第12款休閒育樂主管機關跟我們第6款交通主管機關的部分這邊做一個回應第12款的部分部裡面這邊是支持那個衛福部剛剛的版本就建議不要增訂因為剛剛署長這邊有特別講因為休閒育樂主管機關現在沒有一個特別的一個"},{"start":12196.002,"end":12218.875,"text":"定義然後再來我們的休閒娛樂所有設施是散建在各部會轄管的範圍之內所以這個部分可能會定下去未來會很難去做一個定義跟執行那如果說剛剛委員所關心的在我們第6款的交通主管機關加觀光旅遊這一項原則上不是不行但是加了以後就如同我剛剛講的"},{"start":12220.095,"end":12239.329,"text":"只針對我交通部的風景區去做處理但是散建在其他部位所管的比如說農業部所管的森林遊樂區加上內政部的國家公園還有一些體育場館這個都不是我交通主管機關這邊可以做處理的所以如果說真的要在這邊鎮定的話未來可能會"},{"start":12241.931,"end":12261.159,"text":"定不完因為各部會都有自己的主管所以是建議說還是回歸到各部會所主管的範圍依照自己無障礙的一個推動的一些方式去處理不需要在這邊做一個增訂以上報告好這是交通部廖副市長的這個回應好在監管監管會嗎謝謝"},{"start":12267.013,"end":12282.205,"text":"經管會這邊針對林委員提案的第八款金融主管機關的這個修正文字我們希望做一個文字的調整就是在這個金融服務系統無障礙設施及優化這個部分我們建議文字修正為"},{"start":12283.266,"end":12311.674,"text":"金融無障礙設施優化主要是考量到說金融無障礙的服務不只有系統還有系統以外的相關設施包括無障礙的ATM還有無障礙服務的櫃台這些所以我們建議文資修正為金融無障礙設施優化等服務之規劃推動及監督等事項 以上說明好 還有其他單位要補充嗎 來社會發展部來麥克風給他一下"},{"start":12313.735,"end":12339.615,"text":"你的領子要整理一下好謝謝你沒有打開麥克風是主席還有委員大家好剛才大家都很關心數位發展部列為主管機關一事那其實在院版裡面有很明確的提到在14款裡面數位發展部就已經很明確的是通訊傳播主管機關之一了那裡面也有很明確的提到我們的內容有傳播還有通訊內容無障礙之規劃推動還有監督"},{"start":12340.936,"end":12367.674,"text":"所以剛剛委員非常關心書發部該做的業務其實在裡面都已經有明定了這是第一點那第二點的話因為數位發展我們本身認為這個技術比較是中立性的而是說落實到內容以後才會開始比較有歧視或者是無障礙的議題所以我們建議還是回歸到14條裡面已經有把書發部的內容都放在裡面了那無歧視的部分還有無障礙的部分也有在裡面我們會覺得這樣子的話我們比較著力點比較更可以去積極推動"},{"start":12368.655,"end":12379.984,"text":"那現在在這個模式下我們也運作的很順利以上說明 謝謝好 這個你就針對有個別委員提案的部分再可能私底下再做一下說明好不好來接下來換那個單位來請說明"},{"start":12390.391,"end":12412.578,"text":"主席及各位委員好內政部國督署請就剛剛月勤委員所提醒的在有關於公務住宅的這個修正的內容因為在月勤委員所關心的這個部分他可能還涉及到有關於相關的遊憩場所跟運動場所那這個似乎不在這個所謂的"},{"start":12413.206,"end":12437.88,"text":"建設公務的這樣的一個內容當中那因為其實在生存法的第57條當中已經明定了活動場所的相關目的事業主管機關他要去訂定適合的規定那要逐步去做推動跟相關的改善所以我們是不是建議有關於第6款的這個修正的內容可以維持原來原版的部分的內容那以上說明"},{"start":12438.772,"end":12450.02,"text":"好 謝謝國土署也請你再跟 私下再跟葉警衛溝通一下好 那也還沒有其他的意見那如果沒有的話 來請陳昭志委員"},{"start":12453.226,"end":12476.732,"text":"我很快說明 剛剛謝謝郭法官的說明 剛剛你說在後面也會提到這個司法禁用的部分但是如果已經做了那麼多事 更謝謝你們 已經做了那麼多事但是第二條他是在彰顯每個獨立的 每個分配的機關目的跟這個職長的部分那這個對身障者來說意義非常重要"},{"start":12477.532,"end":12490.723,"text":"他覺得每一個機關都已經進來來負責他專有的那您說的那麼多之後我瞭解你們有做那你可不可以建議文字就是我怎麼表達這個司法監管會有一個主責的單位是來負責的"},{"start":12493.997,"end":12516.438,"text":"我想那個召委他也明白我這邊就是說大家要看那個因為竟然列了這麼多的機關那會獨漏這個部分即便您在其他的法條方面那跟委員跟召委報告可不可以列在84條就是前面這一些訴訟程序上的這些禁用的權限要由司法例如說用條文或者是用附帶決方式必須要司法院來負責推動規劃跟檢讀"},{"start":12517.847,"end":12539.019,"text":"可是第二條上面寫主管機構各目的事業主管機構全責劃分就是剛剛委員報告過就是因為第二條比較講的是行政機關一體間的這個分工他的體力比較像是行政的一體分工的那種條文對那體力上比較很少看到說把司法院列為行政機關中要參加行政體系一體分工的這種機關"},{"start":12540.2,"end":12558.71,"text":"那如果我們單獨列在84條可以彰顯出我們司法是獨立在行政機關這個體系外面的可不可以請委員參考這樣子的方向那這個東西我們研議一下我們因為要討論很久嘛就這個部分我們再稍微保留一下就是說把這個架構因為這個我想這部法案我們也會處理蠻久的時間謝謝 說得好"},{"start":12562.432,"end":12586.953,"text":"謝謝來請走最後因為這個時間關係但是我想要回應一下剛剛速發部講的因為我看了一下你們行政院版的第14條通訊傳播主管機關你這裡寫的是身心障礙者無障礙資訊通訊技術與系統等等這個或是相關的傳輸內容無歧視等我覺得這個我想要請問一下你們這通訊傳播主管機關是速發部還是是NCC都有嗎"},{"start":12587.654,"end":12616.874,"text":"好但是我們其實在強調的是一個類似數位平權的概念可是我看起來這這個感覺上有就是好像不是很明確對好像是著重在內容跟歧視的部分我是覺得好像沒有特別凸顯出這個所謂速發部的一個權責對是不是請速發部可以回去想一下還有請那個我們這個主管機關回去想一下說這部分是不是要怎麼把它強化謝謝"},{"start":12618.554,"end":12638.001,"text":"好謝謝那應該這樣啦就個別委員有提出來的意見也請各單位來做一些資料上的彙整然後也可以個別再跟委員這樣溝通就像這個世華運動的郭老關現在已經一直在溝通了就是典範好謝謝那我們現在我們現在"},{"start":12640.003,"end":12653.584,"text":"我們就休息啦 到下午兩點那我也跟各位預告今天可能會在研會 會盡量把盡量來處理啦 但是要研到什麼時候還是會尊重我們初期委員的意見好 以上 謝謝 現在休息"},{"start":12672.363,"end":12687.602,"text":"呃"},{"start":20217.523,"end":20230.289,"text":"好 現在繼續開會 那我們先請我們的衛福部這邊 針對於早上第二條在做討論的時候 可能牽扯到其他部會 那是不是先做說明"},{"start":20235.965,"end":20256.223,"text":"是 中午之前 各位委員對於相關主管機關的業務應該要執掌辦理的事項都有提到很多的事項大概中午我們把目前已經初步整理過的部分跟各位委員做一個報告"},{"start":20257.143,"end":20271.652,"text":"那第一項就是這個社會福利主管機關的部分那早上是廖委員提到就獨立生活我們建議可以修正我們這個配合修正的自立生活這個沒有問題然後第二款的部分"},{"start":20273.653,"end":20290.891,"text":"衛生主管機關的部分我們會建議是這個把預防原來的文字我們做一個處理就是因為一直在出現醫療好像會很重複然後而且這個看起來會有點混亂那我們重新做了一個處理照醫療三段五級這樣的一個概念"},{"start":20291.491,"end":20307.023,"text":"我們把它修正成從身心障礙者之鑑定然後從最前端的預防保健中段的醫療到後段的復健與輔具研發等相關事項的全醫規劃那我們來做這樣的一個處理那這兩項的部分這邊先跟"},{"start":20311.487,"end":20332.062,"text":"月勤委員這邊回報一下就是委員這邊有提到就是原來希望在原來有提到在第一項的第一款的部分裡面是不是要加進身心障礙者人格維護及權益保障的部分那我們中午做過一些討論我們是建議是不是有可能先"},{"start":20333.103,"end":20348.264,"text":"先不要放进来主要的考量是因为在这一条里面其实各个目的事业主管机关大家所负责的事务其实都是涉及到身心障碍者的权益保障"},{"start":20349.345,"end":20364.94,"text":"大家所會知道都是各種面向的權益保障如果只在這邊單獨去提的話會變成是不是將來所有權益保障的部分變成有一個機關去做統籌的處理反而容易會不會有這樣的"},{"start":20366.321,"end":20384.364,"text":"比較不了解的人會不會有這樣子的解讀那我們是建議所以我們會建議說第一款的部分是不是先不甄列這樣子的文字第二個就是這個第二款的部分有提到是不是醫療及生活輔具的研發我們把文字做了一個順的部分"},{"start":20384.924,"end":20399.293,"text":"那廖委員剛才有提到是不是要加進來這個身心健康或者加進心理健康的部分那我們跟我們幾個業務單位做了一些討論我們也是跟委員做一些拜託我們大概的想法是因為從"},{"start":20400.294,"end":20429.123,"text":"预防保健医疗到后端的附件其实它本质上就是身心一定都在里面所以这个部分如果要我们要再清楚把它秀出来的话我们会建议是不是有可能我们到时候在说明栏里面把这个心理健康或者身心健康这样的一个概念我们在说明栏里面再做一个文字上的补充是做这样的一个说明然后接下来就到第三款的文字没有变动然后第四款劳工主管机关的部分"},{"start":20429.872,"end":20429.932,"text":"這個配合"},{"start":20434.735,"end":20459.87,"text":"這個林慧琴委員的提案的部分那這個有甄列禁止就把原來的禁止職業歧視那我們只有做一個文字的建議修正變成就業歧視然後建設公務主管機關這一款沒有修正那在交通主管機關第六款交通主管機關的部分那這個在參考了上一次公聽會以及在這邊跟今天上午大家說各位委員的意見"},{"start":20460.51,"end":20478.012,"text":"那我们增列的就是把生活通信大众运输工具在前面我们更明确的把无障碍你挪到最前面来那这跟所有的这个相关的事项都通通都都会把它框进去那另外也回应就是各位委员提到这个有要增列"},{"start":20478.853,"end":20493.128,"text":"休閒娛樂主管機關的部分因為目前沒有很明確的休閒娛樂但是我們先請交通部這邊把最直接有關聯的觀光旅遊的部分就先納到交通主管機關這邊來"},{"start":20494.91,"end":20510.548,"text":"那然后接下来在第八款金融主管机关的部分那这个也是委员有提到的意见那我们在这边的这个谢谢金管会那金融再会甄列一个金融无障碍设施优化好吧这样的一个"},{"start":20511.737,"end":20534.406,"text":"也是月勤委員的提案的部分我們把文字增補進來然後這個在接下來到底下第11款的部分也是依據各位委員的意見原來的體育主管機關我們就修正成運動主管機關第12款文化主管機關的部分我們也把文化權益這樣的一個概念放進來那因為這個"},{"start":20535.866,"end":20559.963,"text":"在文化去講休閒娛樂好像會不太明確但是實際上很多的文化部主管的事項我們大家一般會覺得他和休閒娛樂有關聯我們就把文化權益這樣的文字也把它參採進來那在接下來到底下的部分那這個是第14款跟第15款原來在通訊傳播主管機關我們把它拆分出來"},{"start":20561.264,"end":20579.474,"text":"通传会和速发部的部分就变成两款通讯传播主管机关的部分它的主管事项它的主管机关全责划分子是定成身心障碍者通讯技术与系统"},{"start":20580.638,"end":20583.139,"text":"对不起 这边可能多一个字"},{"start":20604.907,"end":20622.05,"text":"以应该要拿掉即政府数位服务网路平台与行动化应用软体无障碍之规划推动及监督等事项所以增列一款那第16款和第17款就是款式的做一个顺移"},{"start":20622.651,"end":20637.178,"text":"那最後一個是陳昭之委員有提到這個原來司法主管機關的部分那司法院也有跟陳昭之陳委員這邊做了一個報告那會配合在這個條文的說明欄裡面"},{"start":20638.692,"end":20653.546,"text":"會甄列相關的文字那這邊我因為不是條文我就簡單的宣讀一下會在條文甄列有關身心障礙者權利公約第13條所定身心障礙者在平等基礎上有效獲得司法保護之權利"},{"start":20654.867,"end":20668.573,"text":"因適用本法第84條之規定並由司法院負責推動規劃及監督法院在訴訟程序實施過程中之司法禁用與無障礙事項大概以上"},{"start":20673.087,"end":20690.123,"text":"我這邊先表示意見就是當然我覺得剛才沙漢署這邊提到那個權益保障我可以不堅持可是針對於衛生主管機關的那個生活輔具我認為還是要放醫療跟生活是不一樣的所以這個我非常堅持"},{"start":20690.763,"end":20705.434,"text":"等下你們可以再做說明那等下是不是因為到底遊戲場的這一塊要放在這邊還是因為的確而造權法裡邊有把經濟部上遊戲場這個國家標準訂定"},{"start":20709.113,"end":20730.48,"text":"有放 可是這邊是牽扯到的事實上是比較是無障礙這一塊美國大概是分兩塊 一個無障礙的標準一個是遊戲場標準 台灣事實上是會變成我們是用CNS12612643在管我們的遊戲場的規範而且事實上是本體對無障礙我覺得沒有多做說明"},{"start":20730.973,"end":20745.787,"text":"或者等我們看是不是經濟部可以再做再做說明還有剛剛我覺得衛福部有沒有回應我講的就是後邊我們的增加的那個等於是第三項第四項這邊好那"},{"start":20746.388,"end":20769.701,"text":"是不是要增加 也就是當初我們在開公定位的時候你們有提及到說要有一個跨平台那我覺得這邊就授權會讓他非常清楚可是這邊也沒有針對這個你有做說明還有一個我要問的是金融主管機關拿掉服務系統這四個字是更擴大還是更限縮"},{"start":20770.761,"end":20794.792,"text":"因為本來我們是金融服務系統要有無障礙設施及優化那拿掉服務系統這四個字那再來要問警政的 警政主管機關我們這邊也有要求是司法偵查偵查程序進行中的那個輔助資源的一個禁用那我覺得這邊也沒有特別做說明"},{"start":20795.816,"end":20800.178,"text":"那以上我不知道其他委員針對他們剛剛講的有沒有其他的意見沒有那其他委員沒有那就是針對我的部分是不是可以來做回應"},{"start":20828.928,"end":20847.007,"text":"跟委員報告一下在前一次公聽會的時候提到我們後面可以去建構相關的委員版本要申列最後一項有跨機關政策協調會議的部分抱歉我剛才可能確實是漏掉了"},{"start":20848.308,"end":20869.859,"text":"我們會建議這個部分是不是有機會是因為這個部分如果是參考兒少全法用遊戲場這樣的一個平台機制來處理的話我們建議的處理方式是是不是有可能用附帶決議的方式來處理那我們有準備一個附帶決議建議的文字這個文字我們會建議是請衛生福利部"},{"start":20870.779,"end":20893.95,"text":"與六個月內會商有關機關研議建立身心障礙者遇到休閒活動權益事項之跨部會溝通平台這邊我們用這個因為這個大概就是參考現在在遊戲場的方式我們就去建構這樣的一個平台的機制委員其實在今天也有一個"},{"start":20896.857,"end":20905.782,"text":"本委員本來也有一個附帶決議的部分那也有提到這個部分要做橫向的應該是附帶決議的第二案"},{"start":20911.755,"end":20937.497,"text":"那這個部分的話我們也我們也會建議如果是不用行政院的不用衛福部這邊的一個建議附帶條文附帶決議的文字的話我們會建議是那這個附帶決議這個前面有些場域的部分可能會配合法令的部分做一些調整那主要是委員建議的委員的這個附帶決議最後最後一段令要求本法中央主管機關"},{"start":20939.622,"end":20965.944,"text":"那以下是我們建議修正的方法因進行跨部會政策協調那就是中間定期檢視這幾個字我們可能會需要把它刪除掉就是因進行跨部會政策協調並提供身心障礙者表達意見的機會確保服務完整性那這樣的話一樣是把這個跨部會橫向協調的機制納進來以上"},{"start":20969.124,"end":20996.387,"text":"好 衛福部還是沒有回應我剛剛講的生活輔具生活輔具的部分這個跟委員報告一下就是目前在衛福部在輔具的管理的部分那我們這個在管理上它就是如果它是屬於依照醫療器材管理法它要列進來的話那就是由我們的食藥署那依照醫療器材的部分來管理"},{"start":20996.807,"end":21025.504,"text":"那如果不列入医疗器材管理的部分生活性他不用用医疗器材管理在现行的条文在第15款和第16款包括科技主管机关和经济主管机关的部分科技主管机关已经有名列身心障碍者辅助科技的研发技术研究移转在经济主管机关则有名定身心障碍辅助的国家标准定定产业推动商品化开发规划及推动"},{"start":21026.324,"end":21053.65,"text":"那這個部分的話我們是建議它其實生活輔具的部分其實現在是已經有主管機關來做相關的處理以上可是15跟16的意義不同因為16它還是經濟部每次都跟我們講說它指定標準我們在衛生主管機關這邊要求的是研發還有它相關權益的一個規劃所以我覺得還是有落差"},{"start":21055.666,"end":21077.985,"text":"所以如果你剛剛講說要放在15、16來認為說這一項就反正15、16就會解決看起來我覺得16並沒有解決他只訂標準而已第15款科技主管機關的地方是研發跟技術研究"},{"start":21078.712,"end":21103.951,"text":"但是第16款經濟主管機關的話就包括了它的標準訂定產業推動商品化開發規劃及推動所以這兩個部會其實在跨部會的部分它是組合起來是有包括到生活輔具就是它只要不需要如果不涉及到要用醫療器材來管理的部分的話其實是有主管機關來操作的"},{"start":21106.589,"end":21125.498,"text":"這個科技研究事務主管機關會是誰目前現行的話應該是國科會另外一個就是針對於那個金融主管機關我說拿掉那四個字會是更擴大還是更限縮"},{"start":21130.703,"end":21151.732,"text":"回應委員這邊就是我們剛剛有提到說拿掉這個系統是因為考量到那個金融服務包括不只有系統還有系統以外的相關措施包括無障礙的ATM或無障礙服務的櫃台 所以拿掉系統是範圍比較大一點警政主管機關"},{"start":21162.046,"end":21173.785,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好警政署就第二條第10款來回應有關身心障礙者警訊跟具體的司法紀念我們會要求所屬落實去推動跟執行"},{"start":21174.588,"end":21200.885,"text":"不過就法條設計上那調查筆錄就是所謂的警訊跟具體軍事司法警察的職權那司法警察的定義是規範在刑事訴訟法並非單純指警察也並非單純是警察的職權例如檢察事務官 調查官 廉政官海巡 移民跟憲兵都是刑事訴訟法所定義的司法警察"},{"start":21202.126,"end":21208.671,"text":"若單列警政機關做主政恐事前不亦有所疏漏 以上報告"},{"start":21210.14,"end":21234.609,"text":"因為我們法務那邊法務主管機關有列所以在你們這邊有列就像你剛剛講不會是單一嘛所以我們就希望兩邊有列如果你認為事實上是跟法務主管機關一樣的因為有牽扯到那是不是應該在後邊真的是要我們來辯如果不要寫在法條的話我們大概就用附帶決議或是立法說明的時候把它講清楚"},{"start":21235.109,"end":21259.991,"text":"今天身心障礙團體為什麼提出來就是因為他們多年來使用上根本就是沒有辦法在他們進入到整個司法體系的時候不管是警政或法務他們都會有他所謂的不友善甚至他的競變性事實上是比較弱甚至他們需要協助可是就是沒有辦法得到協助所以才會提出這樣的法條"},{"start":21261.061,"end":21289.237,"text":"所以等下是不是會後是不是可以等下是你們提供文字給我這邊那另外一個就是衛福部剛剛說明的我個人並不同意去放到因為當初兒少權法真的是不得已因為遊戲權一直是找不到主管機關所以才用便宜形式像那現在一樣休閒遊戲這一塊也是比較沒有辦法主管機關的時候那兒少權法的確沒有定事實上是當初因應"},{"start":21290.177,"end":21316.139,"text":"整個狀態勢必遊戲場越來越多的時候要管理才會做這樣子的一個是因為時事所趨所以你們去做了這樣平台那沒有納入到法規可是沒有納入到法規的話我覺得它就不是長久之類可是遊戲場還算單純可是如果這個身心障礙的休閒遊戲的話事實上是會一直持續不斷所以我認為還是要納入在法律裡面"},{"start":21317.02,"end":21339.457,"text":"所以除非你有更好的文字我等下提供 我們也可以等下再做討論好 謝謝主席我想針對第二條大家都希望把很多很多的必要的事情能夠在我們法律裡面直接明文去規範不過如果我們看第二條的最後一項"},{"start":21340.703,"end":21358.04,"text":"前項以外是身心障礙權益保障事項由各相關目的事業主管機關依全責規劃辦理我意思就是說如果他最後一項其實是怕掛萬漏一嘛所以又有這個最後一項的文字"},{"start":21359.221,"end":21384.614,"text":"確認在這邊那如果不太清楚就是主管機關如果我們寫的越詳細越好呢還是說有什麼方式可以不要詳細到萬一沒有列進來然後就被漏掉了未來在處理上造成的困難所以我也說剛剛主席現在也希望能夠把它寫得非常的詳細那這樣對於一個法條來講這樣的做法相對來講是哪一個會比較適當以上"},{"start":21389.22,"end":21414.148,"text":"針對這個我想證據委員當然他是從應該每個主管機關都會去做他他應該做的不過因為我覺得身權法裡面可能還是要看到就是身障者的需求因為所有障礙都是制度都是法會造成的基本上是不會有障礙的"},{"start":21414.898,"end":21433.951,"text":"那一樣的那如果這次我們好不容易要去動這步伐的時候是不是可以從晚輩來做考量我覺得沒辦法到近戰近美可是至少團體提出來的東西一定是他這麼多年來有所妨礙所以產生困擾也就是說如果剛剛證據委員提的"},{"start":21434.972,"end":21463.191,"text":"依照規定有在做那大家不會再提出來這些要求就像我剛剛提的法務跟我們的警政主管機關他們針對輔助資源的禁用性那人家為什麼這時候提出來如果都有做我相信團體不會提出來這個我覺得團體也不會這麼樣說要你們多寫多少個字沒有意義可是重點是一定是沒有做到啊不是嗎這是一個另外一個就是還是回到衛福部這邊"},{"start":21464.915,"end":21482.245,"text":"針對於我剛剛提的那個第四項要列入你們可不可以再做說明因為我希望還是要有一個這樣子的一個會議來召開因為休閒遊戲事實上是長遠性跟遊戲場還是不太一樣跟ASO的遊戲場還是不太一樣"},{"start":21495.973,"end":21517.022,"text":"這個法務和警察的部分可能就要拜託我們相關部會可能再幫忙做補充那委員這邊提到的這個委員提案要增列第四項的部分那如果我們第一個是我們一定會照這個剛才所跟各位報告的這個平台的機制我們一定會來操作"},{"start":21517.902,"end":21536.207,"text":"那只是在文字的部分是如果要我們建議的方法是說是不是可以用附帶決議的方式來處理那如果一定是要進到條文的話那這個部分條文的話當然如果最後要擺在就是如同委員所"},{"start":21540.051,"end":21565.246,"text":"如果是以现在委员的文字的话因为他这边是提到是前项所称保障之事项那这个我们只是确定一下这个是要针对这个休闲娱乐的管理还是所有权益保障因为如果是所有权益保障现在在第10条的部分他其实是已经有一个"},{"start":21565.866,"end":21594.966,"text":"通案性的組織就是不管是院生權或者是部裡面其實也有部的也有生權委員會那就是看這樣的話這個如果是如果一定如果是需要在這邊寫我想大方向也這樣的文有一項的文字我們也是可以接受那只是看這個這個所謂的前在委員版本的所謂的前項所稱保障事項因為這個回到前面第三項是指"},{"start":21596.106,"end":21614.658,"text":"前項以外其他身心障礙權益保障事項那這個部分是不是就是我們將來是針對這個沒有列進來的部分我們來做一個處理那如果放到條文裡面大方向我們是可以接受那我們文字上面也許技術網上我們再做一個確認然後再來跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":21620.227,"end":21633.053,"text":"陳副署長講的 當然第四條有這樣訂因為我不是沒有開過說類似你們這樣會我不知道現在這樣會多久開一次過去所謂的向兒少推動小組半年開一次會"},{"start":21633.936,"end":21649.416,"text":"而且常常都限制提案那如果說今天前面場域這麼多問題的時候常常我相信團體要提案大概提不上案這就是我過去的經驗那你說要用這個第10條的這樣子的一個所謂的委員會來解決所有的問題"},{"start":21651.055,"end":21679.27,"text":"可能我相信很難如果可以的話那當初我相信今天過去社家屬不會再設一個遊戲場的平台那如果那樣的話本來你就可以在你們自己的兒少委員會開啦就是因為沒辦法因為第一個他們半年才開一次和一個平台他可能是每個月開一次因為有問題就要解決如果不OK的遊戲場馬上要解決甚至標準有時候不太一致大家認定的標準不一致就要解決"},{"start":21679.87,"end":21704.241,"text":"和你如果是這種會議的話我相信很難沒有辦法解決這麼多問題而且機動性非常的弱和相對平台我覺得有大落差所以我為什麼覺得說應該要放在這邊而且相信也不是只有休息遊戲像停車空間很多這也是我覺得我連這兩次跟深藏團體朋友們開記者會那個停車"},{"start":21705.014,"end":21730.614,"text":"坦白講他們很大的困擾你們發的身障的一個停車診根本就是很大量發的時候讓很多需要的人可能不見得有停車位可以停所以這就是都要解決的問題所以我們才會希望說是不是有一個在增列這一項來當然文字上如果覺得比較有哪些要調整的你們可以去調整可是我覺得目的上是要達到這樣目的"},{"start":21734.804,"end":21761.771,"text":"我想就是文字我們會建議是不是用文字的部分我們在細節文字部分做個確認因為大方向是還蠻清楚的就是如果是確定是針對以剛才所提到的目前來看起來就會先核心以這個休閒娛樂的這些部分的一個協調的平台為主軸那我們以這個部分我們來去準備相關的文字來做一個稍微做文字來做一個研擬的動作"},{"start":21765.666,"end":21768.132,"text":"先文字還沒有辦法那我就先請交通部"},{"start":21791.591,"end":21819.989,"text":"委員這邊再補充說明因為可能早上在我發言的時候可能接近中午那針對第六款交通主管機關部分觀光旅遊因為其實早上我的表達是說希望在這個地方列在列在交通部的權責裡面會有一個狀況就是因為台灣有很多是非屬交通部主管的尤其取向農業部或者是像那個我們內政部的國家公園所以列在這邊可能會有掛完肉依的一個情形"},{"start":21820.809,"end":21847.926,"text":"這是第一點所以我們是建議這個文字要嘛就不應該列在這個地方回歸到各部會的主管權責裡面去處理那當然另外委員所關心的休閒娛樂這一塊因為其實在我們先行法規第52條的部分其實已經針對了身障者在社會參與或休閒文化活動體育活動等等之類在這個第52條的第一項裡面其實都已經有規定了"},{"start":21848.366,"end":21866.357,"text":"所以如果說真的要去處理因為其實我們的休閒娛樂這件事情分散在各不同的主管機關那52條剛好可以做一個匡列如果說真的要處理我是倒覺得52條是可以來回應現在身上朋友的期待以上補充"},{"start":21867.25,"end":21893.299,"text":"好如果交通部這樣提的確農業部也有所謂的休閒農場之類的那你們的確有觀光署 等一下看其他委員要不要表示意見一種就是我覺得我的本來的說明就針對於增列第四項就提到也就是說這是沒有明定的其他的權益包括我們的校園運動場域 文化活動場域 休閒"},{"start":21894.5,"end":21913.002,"text":"预热跟水利设施跟高滩地的休闲场地跟露营区我们就现在是海水浴场跟海上活动这些无障碍设施那都要由各个我们的主管机关依全责来规划推动跟监督来避免任何疏漏这也是一种做法"},{"start":21913.522,"end":21941.687,"text":"就是不用再普列每一個都要去提到那也看在場的委員的意見可是原則上第四項要列進去的話才能夠解決我們未來如果有跨部會的問題要解決的話不管停車或者是休憩空間甚至休憩的設置產生什麼問題的時候那當然我覺得就可以不用去普列在每一個主管機關有關休閒的這一塊那我不知道在場的委員有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":21945.888,"end":21971.173,"text":"那個政區委員是謝謝主席剛剛所做的說明其實我覺得第52條會把可能針對身心障礙者參與社會過程裡面碰到的一些相關不管十一住行各方面都會處理到的部分所以如果結合第二條跟第52條事實上很多東西經過整合應該會更清楚那第二條我們已經討論非常多"},{"start":21971.753,"end":21991.001,"text":"所以如果在第二條裡面希望能夠再做調整的部分是不是先第二條就先保留然後再跟大家討論過52條以後第二條以後再針對第52條的部分看如何能夠再補強讓第52條可以更為完整以上的意見謝謝好那我們就第二條先行好運動部"},{"start":22004.77,"end":22028.75,"text":"同步同意改為運動主管機關 那也建議跟前面一致 後面的身心障礙者體育活動改為運動活動 那這樣會一致 謝謝我們就第二條 因為還是有些文字上要等 那是不是我們就先保留 然後繼續進行我們的第三條"},{"start":22031.243,"end":22043.145,"text":"我們現在進行到第三條之前有一個民眾黨的版本第二條之一"},{"start":22060.429,"end":22064.411,"text":"主席是不是允許我說明還是我先請主管機關說明有關民進黨黨團提案的就是這個對於可及性的部分那這個是行政院版是沒有這樣是並沒有增訂這一個條文那對於民進黨黨團的這個提案的部分那我們是覺得"},{"start":22089.504,"end":22107.505,"text":"在我們的評估結果是可及性跟無障礙標準其實在身心障礙的這個學理上其實它算是基本上它是不同的領域的事情那而且這個可及性和無障礙因為涉及到在各個領域裡面"},{"start":22108.766,"end":22138.446,"text":"他是比較沒有辦法由一個單一的部會或者單一的主管機關就去訂統一的指引所以這個部分的話而且在現行的生權法架構底下那在各個領域的部分不管是交通文化或者是住宅或者是其他的部分其實本來在相關的條文對無障礙的部分已經有相關的規定所以我們會建議這個條文就是不是可以不要增訂以上"},{"start":22141.809,"end":22156.081,"text":"謝謝主席我們其實沒有要求立即訂定強制性的標準但是因為過去我們看到其多的法案也有相類似的狀況我們是期待中央主管機關能夠會同各目的事業主管機關參佐一下國際規範跟通通設計的原則"},{"start":22159.284,"end":22187.603,"text":"就是说如果说你们认为精神已经有反应充分反应说在各条文中这个可及性那我也想请你们再比较具体说明未来的跨部会执行因为这个跨部会的执行在解释上你如何要确保标准是一致的因为我们很担心是说后续的执行是各自解读这个我们在别的法案看到了那既然这个是我们特别要去修订的这个法案是在这个地方在这个地方可以"},{"start":22189.544,"end":22207.823,"text":"怎麼樣避免在跨部會在執行解釋上會是不一致的然後各個地方正在執行的時候也不是要各自解讀這個是我們比較擔心的部分署長可不可以再就這個部分再更具體的說明請衛福部回答"},{"start":22212.872,"end":22229.911,"text":"跟陳委員報告因為各領域其實它的無障礙或者是可及性因為它的樣態需求會有一些會可能因為個別事項的不同會有一些不一樣的地方那你這個現在現行的生存法第52條來說"},{"start":22232.353,"end":22255.382,"text":"那这个52条里面就包含的是像修行活动体育公共资讯等等的事项那这些事项里面其实在52条的第3项对不起第4项里面那其实就有要求说对于这些以上这些活动的部分它所谓的辅助或者补助措施的内容施行方式"},{"start":22255.922,"end":22274.291,"text":"那是各中央目的事業主管機關他就要來去訂定相關一些輔助的做法那這個輔助的文字概念上其實就和剛才委員版本的提案所提到的這個不管是無障礙或者是可及性的部分都會有一定程度的關聯"},{"start":22275.231,"end":22302.81,"text":"那在具体的事项部分以这个金融的部分来说其实像金融这个金融的APP或者金融或者是这个提款机的部分那尽管会是持续有一个平台来处理这样相关的事物那或者是在相关的可及性的部分其实个别都已经有相关的会议都已经持续的是在来做相关的处理那所以考虑到那无障碍的面向是在不同的部分有它有这个"},{"start":22303.57,"end":22332.779,"text":"無障礙的處理或者可及性處理方面都有相當的這個多元性跟多樣性所以我們會建議是說這個條文的話是也許可以在個別的主管機關他自己的事項裡面其實大概都有去訂定那行政院其實對於這個可及性的部分他也已經有近期也有在開有相關的會議來去處理相關可及性的這個這樣的議題其實大概都已經有在做相關的討論那以上報告"},{"start":22333.659,"end":22352.418,"text":"謝謝署長說明就是說你認為目前這個中央機關事實上已經都存在存在這個不管是參考其他國家規範或是通過設計原則已經存在這個相關的指引可以供各個主管機關他們來執行就是說這樣子我們是確定說這樣"},{"start":22354.141,"end":22376.548,"text":"就是需求者的身障者的他們的聲音他們的期待是有被清楚的聽到這樣子我最重要的一個精神是這樣就是在執行上不要出現明顯的一個落差那您認為是這個部分是不會有是有既存的這個可以參考的中央已經既存可以參考的一些指引嗎您的意思是您認為是相當已經很相當完善了嗎"},{"start":22380.049,"end":22404.1,"text":"這個跟我們報告我們會有這些機制出來就是現在做的永遠都一定有進步的空間跟有調整的必要所以這個它一定是隨時根據外界大家所反映出來的部分但是現在在處理的機制上那針對這些特定的事項我們已經特別事項大概都在發展相關的處理的機制"},{"start":22404.68,"end":22419.906,"text":"那這個部分的話當然就是有新的議題出來那就一定會去行政部門一定會去因應跟面對謝謝署長我的意思說你那你說你會根據這個他們身上的需求他會與時俱進第二個就是希望是大家有標準一致的標準"},{"start":22420.806,"end":22448.148,"text":"不會說在不同的地方會有產生不同的解釋不同的各自解釋的基本的原則一定是一致的那不過因為在可及性或者是這個無障礙的上面這個也許是道路也許是房屋也許是設備它的這個無障礙的這個基本的原則概念是一定是共同但是具體的做法上可能會有一些不一樣那這個可能就個別要來處理謝謝署長 謝謝主席我們有其他意見 謝謝"},{"start":22449.881,"end":22462.896,"text":"那就本條不予增訂那接下來臺灣民眾黨的第三條跟林月琴的第三條跟范雲委員的第三條 我們並案討論請行政部門先做說明"},{"start":22473.122,"end":22492.816,"text":"各位委員的版本的提案因為行政院的部分這個條文是沒有提案的那針對各位各個委員的調整的部分其實和剛才在第二條第一款的這個是不是要去增列權益保障其實大概會面臨到這個未來條文解讀的問題是很類似的"},{"start":22496.338,"end":22522.469,"text":"那中央主管機關如果是我們把這個所謂權益保障跟福利服務尤其是福利服務的政策把它列為中央主管機關的業務的話那它可能會面臨的就是是不是所有各部會的只要是身心障礙的福利服務會不會都是屬於特定的某一個例如說都屬於中央主管機關在文字的解讀上面可能是會有"},{"start":22523.649,"end":22548.818,"text":"會產生比較多的聯想所以我們會建議是這個在生權法還是一個屬於各部會大家共同來協力中央地方一起來操作的部分的話我們會建議這個部分的文字是不是有可能不要爭列免於爭列以上建議那兩位委員有沒有什麼意見來范瑀委員之後陳昭志委員"},{"start":22553.198,"end":22580.275,"text":"我的想法是其实这些福利服务也是基于让他们有平等的权益所以国际上经常都是用权益来讲的话这些福利也是在协助他们能够有各种包含刚刚民众党条文的可及性比如说我们讨论旅游然后司法等等所以一般来讲会把权益放在前面福利放在后面是更好的"},{"start":22580.675,"end":22605.01,"text":"因为要让他有平等的权益所以才会给他这么多的福利如果没有放权益保障这个好像会感受上觉得是国家多照顾你的不是应该你平等应得的这会给人这样感受那当然就是这部分是我的版本为什么这样写的看法跟大家说明一下以上"},{"start":22607.691,"end":22629.443,"text":"我們在文字上做了調整的最重要原因它其實是反映了我們怎麼樣去看身心障礙者他到底是屬於被照顧的人還是一個能夠主張權利的人這個關鍵非常重要因為在CRPD國家報告的結論性的意見也指出國家審查這個國際審查委員會有指出一個結構性問題就是我國在執行"},{"start":22630.664,"end":22650.046,"text":"直接執行公務員義務時人存在一個比較醫療比較福利的導向的政策的偏誤導致身心障礙者他們人權保障沒有辦法充分的落實而且他的結論性的意見也再三強調國家應該把身心障礙者視為具有完全法律能力的權力主體"},{"start":22650.726,"end":22667.058,"text":"而不是僅僅作為被照顧的人或是被救濟的對象所以我們才會希望說透過一些文字的調整讓中央主管機關在執行這些既有的任務的時候不是說提供服務而是讓權力保障作為一個核心的目的請署長您多體會我們的精神在這個地方那個剎屬署長要不要說明那我的版本事實上"},{"start":22676.86,"end":22694.753,"text":"我覺得剛才不管是范雲委員或陳昭志委員就強調那個權益保障基本上你們也是寫的事實上是全國性身心障礙福利服務然後權益保障政策那我的就是加個語那也就會達到他們"},{"start":22696.534,"end":22710.699,"text":"談得差不多所以我不知道你們的考量是什麼因為分開兩個東西是會更清楚那你們事實上是合在少了那個語就是好像是合在一起所以你們可以針對這個部分再做說明"},{"start":22714.874,"end":22735.683,"text":"跟各位報告我們從衛福部的中央主管機關的角度來看中央主管機關的角色的時候中央主管機關我們會把它定位成是對於通案的整體的權益保障的部分它來做相關的政策法規方案的規劃訂定"},{"start":22737.364,"end":22756.612,"text":"那這邊就會面臨到是如果我們現在如果以這個有委員的版本是把福利服務和權益保障對調的時候我們比較擔心這個單純是文字解讀的問題這個實際操作基本的概念其實我們和委員的想法一定是一樣的"},{"start":22757.412,"end":22771.03,"text":"就是因为把福利服务放到后面的时候就是福利服务的政策法规规划但是福利服务的部分这个所谓的福利服务的内涵可能就会包括到食衣住行育乐各个方面"},{"start":22772.532,"end":22797.512,"text":"那我们比较是怕的我们比较会有一点担心这个时候解释的时候就是它跟后面的那个文字结合起来的时候这个解释上比较容易会有一些这个超过原来预期的想象这是我们比较有我们比较稍微会有一点担忧的地方但是基本的发想对这个条文的发想跟处理我们跟委员绝对是一样的所以我们会建议说在基本结构如果是还"},{"start":22798.553,"end":22806.261,"text":"跟委員想法是一致的話是不是有一個可以不用來調整的這樣一個空間以上報告好 陳昭志委員"},{"start":22808.426,"end":22834.407,"text":"謝謝主席我想說說跟大家簡單分享一下我們在處理外送員的部分的時候也是到底是外送員權益保障還是管理平台當然這個兩個說法都有它的這個正當性但是這裡我們是既然我們要走這個CRPD而且他們的一些建議那如果我們把它先寫成這個權益保障然後福利服務放在後面請問對貴部有什麼困難嗎有什麼困難會造成什麼困擾嗎"},{"start":22839.079,"end":22856.229,"text":"就是說我們主張的是當事者的權益那福利是好像就是他一個被動被照顧的一個方式我們給你福利啊我們照顧你啊這個思考是不太一樣的那請問如果照按照我跟范緣文的建議的版本有困難嗎會發生你們擔心的什麼事嗎"},{"start":22860.492,"end":22883.589,"text":"就是调整啊就是调整这样的一个我们在其他的法案也有同样的一个讨论了说到你讲之前我先来讲一下因为我就要理清一个本来你没有与那件事情你是整个合在一起等于会变成是说这些现行条文讲的是全国性的身心障碍福利服务的福利服务权益哦"},{"start":22884.758,"end":22894.962,"text":"跟就福利服務的權益保障政策所以先第一個是不是先把它分開來再來解決的事實上是因為我覺得分開來是比較好"},{"start":22896.371,"end":22922.325,"text":"講兩塊一個是福利服務一個事實上是權益保障那至於剛才兩位委員把他前後次序調的那個你們考量什麼你再回答可是先來解決一個是說如果把它分兩塊是比較清楚的和你合在一起叫做全國身心障礙福利服務權益保障什麼叫福利服務的權益保障還是一個是全國的福利服務"},{"start":22923.385,"end":22932.47,"text":"跟與權益保障這就會變成分兩塊東西以上 先拜託這邊做說明一個是與 一個事實上是前後"},{"start":22935.334,"end":22960.835,"text":"跟委員報告那現行條文的文字那從我們業務單位的角度來看的時候我們在談的就是福利服務權益保障政策那它其實就是連在一起的東西它其實一體的那就是它就是一個總體那最後就是我們會關注的重點就是會把它擺在權益保障政策那是跟福利服務有關係的部分"},{"start":22962.857,"end":22983.186,"text":"我們會把它當做一體化的來處理但是當然從文字上面委員會建議是不是福利服務和權益保障到底要不要分開這邊大家可以來做一個討論但是一牽涉到福利服務單獨切開來看的時候"},{"start":22983.786,"end":23005.598,"text":"那就会面临下一个问题是这个他会涉及到个别的福利服务事项的时候到底他未来的在做规划管理定定宣导等等部分他是这个个别的福利事项是由中央主管机关通通来处理还是回到跟前面第二条有点类似的就是"},{"start":23006.258,"end":23033.137,"text":"各别的每一个目的事业主管机关其实他处理的都是跟身心障碍有关系的事项那会变成是未来这个所有的福利服务的规划甚至不一定是原来印象中这个卫生福利部中央主管机关的业务的部分的福利规划那到底是这个将来权责到底是会不会因为这样的调整之后"},{"start":23033.957,"end":23058.199,"text":"它會變成全部都由中央主管機關來做來做處理我們大概比較多的部分其實是一個文字解釋上會不會跑出一個原來沒有預期的一個解釋方法這個是我們大概比較我們比較謹慎的地方但是基本的出發點這個中央主管機關本來就應該來做一個統籌的部分我們一定會負起這樣的責任"},{"start":23061.254,"end":23062.219,"text":"好 那個範圍也先好"},{"start":23069.813,"end":23094.843,"text":"了解那个是署长他的忧心但是我们回来看这个法他第一条就说为维护身心障碍者之权益保障其什么什么对不对所以这个权益不会有这样的疑虑那主管机关中央就是卫福部然后直辖市是直辖市政府等等好像我们在第二条的时候其实就把它"},{"start":23095.643,"end":23123.705,"text":"什么东西分属于什么已经讲得很清楚了那之前我们在沟通的时候也有谈到说其他部会如果没有具体被命名的本来也就是卫福部来协调所以我个人是认为说不管有没有加那个语字就是福利权益连在一起还是福利及权益还是像我的版本就是权益放在福利前其实中央主管机关是不变的"},{"start":23124.205,"end":23144.758,"text":"那只是說大家的考量應該要把這兩個概念分開那除了就是國際的身心障礙者權利公約過去也會說我們台灣好像過於重視福利比較沒有權益導向所以我們這時候覺得把權益放在前面會更好那另一方面如果我們回來看"},{"start":23145.958,"end":23161.703,"text":"社會福利基本法他第一條就明定社會福利為國民之基本權利那所以我覺得把這個東西標舉在前面因為權利或是權益所以才有福利那有些東西會是福利可是有些東西可能是一個"},{"start":23162.543,"end":23191.449,"text":"譬如我们刚刚讲的交通的可及性它其实会更像是一个权利而不是个福利因为做了之后你就不用再发任何钱了所以是不是如果没有影响你们的业务的话是不是能够接受大家觉得与时俱进让它更符合国际的公约的概念谢谢我刚刚这样听懂我们的社家属讲的的确如果事实上是"},{"start":23192.714,"end":23214.058,"text":"但過去事實上不是應該講以前是兒少福利法以前事實上是身心障礙福利法福利法後來是有因為不管是CRC CRPD後來就覺得說應該是權益不會只限縮在社政部門所以才開始往外有其他主管機關列出來"},{"start":23214.653,"end":23241.352,"text":"那這一條回來是中央主管機關那就會變成是衛福部那衛福部如果是你們原來的寫法就等於是福利服務的權益還是在福利 服務的權益去做保障可是如果分開來的話會包山包海的所有的那可能前面各主管機關的通通都又回來你們身上那我們要確定"},{"start":23242.475,"end":23270.789,"text":"那因為中央主管機關是衛福部如果要包交通又要包什麼的話那包的進去嗎因為我後來看兒少全法也沒有這樣寫所以就要回來要看委員大家的所以那我的做法是把它放在後邊等於還是以福利服務為主然後才來講其他的權益保障可是如果寫在前面的話會變成說全部包山包海的權益保障然後再講福利服務那就倒過來了就不一樣"},{"start":23271.63,"end":23280.417,"text":"可是你的中央主管機關就是衛福部衛福部還要去包交通部的交通權什麼這些東西嗎這可能又要回來大家可能要討論一下陳昭志委主席還有署長這個法案本來就是一個我們根據CRPD的精神來做他也指出了我們不足的地方那現在你覺得因為這個雲治的"},{"start":23300.382,"end":23322.849,"text":"放的位置會造成某個部門某個部會太加重責任嗎如果我聽起來感覺是是如此那我還是不理解以我的就是為什麼先把權益保障放在前面那福利放在這幾次就這個立法的一個精神那這裡怎麼會解釋成說最後就是一個部門來"},{"start":23324.867,"end":23348.379,"text":"其實那麼多跨部會的那個組織其實最後本來行政院就是要負最終責任那您擔憂的是是您擔憂那不然其他國家怎麼來做這件事我們也是被指證是要這樣子來做啊就是說到底真正的困難會發生嗎你說會墮落在衛福部嗎我沒有理解不好意思我還沒有理解"},{"start":23350.942,"end":23376.789,"text":"來范雲委員我是建議那個主席因為第三條第四條其實都是一樣的這個是不是也許我們先暫時保留最後別的審完之後大家再回來看這個會不會引起中央主管機關的誤解那這樣我們有更多實質其他業務改變的討論好不好如果招資委員同意的話我們先暫時保留先把其他的實質的改變做出來再回頭看"},{"start":23379.37,"end":23403.368,"text":"在第三第四條等一下要一起看可是我覺得還是要提醒因為我們第一條就已經開宗明義如果講說我們有沒有符合CRPD已經在第一條就開宗明義現在第三剛才講的第三事項討論的比較是在中央主管機關我覺得還是不一樣的層次好那我們就三四條合併來談"},{"start":23417.182,"end":23435.917,"text":"跟各位委員報告第三條和第四條的部分委員的版本雖然都是有同樣的文字的處理跟修正但是我們對於第三條和第四條文字上的解讀我們的看法我們對於第四條的部分我們初步的評估是它是比較有"},{"start":23436.657,"end":23465.239,"text":"我们虽然是建议从两个条文如果文字要对照来看我们会建议如果有可能是不是都免于修正但是如果说这个还是要考虑的话第四条的文字我们认为是反而有处理的空间原因是因为因为第四条它是规定直辖市县市主管的事项那在我们前面所规定到的直辖市县市主管机关就是直辖市县市政府"},{"start":23465.999,"end":23488.982,"text":"所以在直轄市縣市政府裡面那這個不管是衛生局、社會局、交通局、建設局它不管這個文字不管怎麼動它的權限不會因為在解釋反而比較不會因為解釋的關係跑說這是誰的比較不容易所以這個因為它最後解釋它都是在縣市政府"},{"start":23489.642,"end":23510.549,"text":"它会在县市政府但是在中央反而因为这个调整的结果会变成是它会不会变成在部会之间会有一个变化解释上产生出一个解读的空间那当然是从文字的一致性来看我们建议比较优先的是不是有可能有机会那是这个免语修正"},{"start":23511.389,"end":23537.304,"text":"但是如果是真的要調整的話第四條其實我們的評估未來其實在解釋方法上面它可能對地方的衝擊跟在中央可能會不太一樣如果第四條如果是我們當然是優先建議是可以維持現行條文但是如果要調整的話第四條的部分反而因為它最後的權責主管機關都是在就是縣市政府"},{"start":23537.904,"end":23561.085,"text":"他不是縣市政府的衛生局或者社會局或者是交通局他沒有這個問題所以反而在這一塊來說會稍微有空間一點以上報告好兩位委員第四條如果衛福不接受那我們就沒有委員有異議的話第四條就先通過第三條就保留之後審完就再回來看有沒有共識嘛對不對這樣就會有進度了"},{"start":23575.961,"end":23578.585,"text":"那先那是不是"},{"start":23582.01,"end":23610.619,"text":"三四條一起保留之後再回來看好嗎好啊我也認為這樣比較好因為否則一樣還有顛倒的問題倒過來的問題即便你接納權益保障的話還是有結果兩個條文字不太一致而且我還是比較認為因為福利服務放在前面比較大的東西因為那才是身心障礙很重要的然後後來權益保障不是不重要這樣放的時候我就還是要去考慮因為他還是需要你們先提供福利服務才知道那個權益保障有沒有做得好"},{"start":23611.979,"end":23633.585,"text":"也跟各位委員補充報告在第四條的部分台灣民眾黨團的提案會有多一個第十林委員和黨團的部分都有甄列第十款就是有關在交織身份的部分文字寫法"},{"start":23634.165,"end":23660.32,"text":"大概有交資身份資源整合的部分那我們的評估是交資身份的話主要跟前面各款比較起來它比較不是所謂工作的事項而是當一個身心障礙者他具有多重身份的時候應該是比較接近服務他的方法他是屬於比較執行層面的方法"},{"start":23661.121,"end":23671.235,"text":"對 它比較不是屬於職權的事項所以我們會建議第十款如果可以的話是不是就免於爭裂以上這個已併再做到"},{"start":23673.332,"end":23695.843,"text":"我的提出來的是身心障礙者同時具備其他社會福利身份是應該整合服務資源提供服務 身障過去很常要使用到長照的資源 常常很卡如果今天他使用這些資源的時候他一天可能碰五個人有各住又有來洗澡又有什麼什麼那對他來講他"},{"start":23697.103,"end":23715.616,"text":"可能兩天他就要接觸到十個人對他的整個身體狀況不見得是瞭解的所以當時為什麼會有身上夥伴會提供我們這一款有他的目的性那我們不是講交織身份我們要達到的就是說他有用這個之後資源本來就可以整合甚至"},{"start":23716.457,"end":23731.495,"text":"後邊才會能有有這個依據才能要求廠商那邊是不是要去調整如果說你在提供身障或特殊需求的或失能者的時候可以怎麼樣的有一些特殊性來做"},{"start":23733.143,"end":23757.967,"text":"所以我認為這個東西我們不會認為應該要拿掉啦就是那只是說剛才講說這兩條要保留到時候再討論可是要先跟你表達說說因為他就有特殊身份不是啊你就很難用啊那他就是身心障礙他就你的資源不足他說要用長照那你造成他很大的困擾就一樣錢花的一樣可是讓他變成是說"},{"start":23759.286,"end":23785.357,"text":"每一天要接觸不同的人各位應該理解就是說我需要很多身體親密的接觸要幫我做這些事情的時候我每天要面對不同的人我覺得這不見得是好事所以才會有這一項我們完全認同委員這樣的一個想法我們也不希望一個被服務的對象他的服務被割裂不過回到條文的設計的時候因為這條本來是設計一個職權的問題"},{"start":23788.979,"end":23808.167,"text":"那我们会建议这个针对这个不管是身心障碍者同时具有其他社会福利身份或者是用交织身份的角度来看的话我们建议这个部分是不是容我们我们用一个附带决议的方式我们把它甄列进来就是这个未来在执行的身心障碍福利服务的时候"},{"start":23808.707,"end":23838.247,"text":"如果這個身心障礙者是有具有其他社會福利身份的話那應該要去做福利的就是服務的方去做規劃去整合去幫他做規劃是不是有這樣的一個空間那如果在方向這個方向可行的話我們來整理一個我們來整理一個附帶決議的文字我們再提給委員來這邊做一個討論好 反正三四條就保留了那你們可以斟酌文則到時候討論的時候一併提供讓大家討論好那我們接下來呢就是"},{"start":23841.309,"end":23857.719,"text":"一樣台灣民眾黨第五條跟范雲委員的第五條我們並還有新疆政動議第二和第二就是林玉琴還有吳麗華的版本"},{"start":23864.869,"end":23870.975,"text":"還有劉建國委員的修正動議 然後來並案討論那請我們的行政部門做說明"},{"start":23879.826,"end":23906.988,"text":"有關第五條的部分行政院版是沒有提案那各位委員的版本則是對於這個在身心障礙者的定義的部分那大概主要的有幾個和現行條文不一樣的地方是第一個是這個是有增加了有長期短暫或間歇有損傷這樣的一個文字"},{"start":23907.768,"end":23924.964,"text":"那這個是其中是第一點然後另外這個武力華委員那還有甄列第二項就是因疾病或傷害至短期活動或社會參與受限評估需求的時候可以準用本辦法顧問規可以做準用的規定"},{"start":23926.806,"end":23938.661,"text":"我們的總體的評估是以身心障礙者權利公約在CRPD裡面的定義的時候它的定義其實本質上就是"},{"start":23939.81,"end":23955.785,"text":"定義的就是一個長期性的損傷所以我們比較不建議是把短暫的部分納進來尤其在升降資源其實是相對比較有限的情況底下的時候那短期的這一類損傷如果納進來的話"},{"start":23957.546,"end":23979.817,"text":"这个反而容易在资源使用上的时候会有一些这个大家会有一个竞争的情形那我们会建议短期短暂或者是短期的部分我们建议比较不要纳进来那至于间歇的部分的话其实我们的看法是它其实在解释上它是就是已经可以被在概念上是可以被容纳下来"},{"start":23980.277,"end":24002.129,"text":"它的这个间歇的状况如果是一个持续性的它会间歇的话其实解释上就是已经可以纳进来去做相关的处理那这边是我们大概先初步做的一个说明然后另外那这个各委员的版本也有委员的版本是提到对于现行条文里面有提到这个"},{"start":24003.03,"end":24021.546,"text":"第一項裡面是有損傷或不全導致顯著偏離導致顯著偏離或喪失影響活動等等對於不全這樣的一個文字那是覺得對於身心障礙者有可能有帶有貶義的意涵那我們是覺得這個部分如果要這個"},{"start":24022.867,"end":24042.583,"text":"不全這樣的文字有這樣的概念的話我們是建議如果可能的話我們會初步建議是不是可以用缺損這樣的文字來做一個替代那做一個更正那這是我們初步的回應所以我們大概有一個建議的文字那目前現在也有投影在螢幕上那請各位委員一併來參考 謝謝陳昭之委員"},{"start":24048.807,"end":24070.385,"text":"謝謝主席我先談到那個您談的不全這個是一個非常標準的醫療名詞那腎功能不全等等肝功能不全的但是如果說這個能夠代表那個意思當然我不一定要強調但是這個沒有貶抑的意思這是一個醫學名詞那這一條我們要強調是我們其實在跟身障團體接觸當中反覆聽到一個共同的問題"},{"start":24070.965,"end":24095.183,"text":"有些人他虽然不是永久性的障碍但是某些阶段某些状态确实会因为功能受限而被排除在整个制度跟服务之外而且CRPD在第一条第二条的精神他这也也指出这个障碍不是单纯来自个人的功能的一个损伤而是功能损伤跟外在环境交互作用的结果那第二次国家报告的结论性意见也特别提醒我国啊"},{"start":24095.943,"end":24117.779,"text":"在政策跟制度設計上還是偏向醫療跟福利的一個看法那對於間接性、暫時性或情境性受限的人支持是不足的他們覺得支持是不足的所以我們黨才嘗試把這樣的概念反映在文字中希望讓定義本身有多一點包容性所以那也希望未來在制度調整的時候能夠逐步思考如何避免這個資格的設計太僵硬"},{"start":24119.941,"end":24126.391,"text":"然後要讓有需要的人被排除在我們的想法基本想法是這樣就是讓署長跟主席了解"},{"start":24128.847,"end":24157.602,"text":"范芸薇我的版本其实就是在原本的条文中的算是第三句话加了长期间歇或短暂有损伤影响其活动与本来的条文是说参与社会生活我加了四个字充分平等那为什么要加这个部分因为我们原本的条文会让人误以为说是一个长期的一个损伤或者是不全"},{"start":24158.782,"end":24176.049,"text":"但是如果你说他有半年可是这个半年到底是长还是短或者一年两年到底算不算长期而且大家知道就是说有些半年或一年之后也可能会延续所以其实重点是如果有人他愿意去被鉴定"},{"start":24176.943,"end":24202.538,"text":"那有足够影响他充分平等生活然后都有这些就是好多项目的部分的话那他如果愿意被鉴定的话那其实应该让这个空间存在因为真的很短期的人你说两个月三个月可能也不会想要这么的麻烦去被鉴定所以就是留一个空间就是说明就是长期间歇或短暂那另外参与社会生活"},{"start":24203.058,"end":24216.244,"text":"参与一点点也是参与但是如果他就是没有办法充分平等参与的话那其实就代表他事实上是需要协助的所以是不是请大家可以考虑一下加上这几个字谢谢"},{"start":24216.94,"end":24245.967,"text":"好來請王玉敏委員我們第5條其實就是在討論身心障礙者的一些定義嗎還有他怎麼樣可以領到這個身心障礙證明那我這邊也要提一個是身障團體的訴求就是說實務上其實有一些孩子他是學習障礙但是他的學習的障礙他得到的資源坦白講是少的就是領學習障礙證明跟領身心障礙證明身心障礙證明"},{"start":24246.727,"end":24270.28,"text":"好用的多他举了一个实例就是像这个社工师的报考就是有一个孩子他其实就是他没有办法书写就没有办法写字但他可以打字所以在那个过程当中他就希望说我们的这一个考选部要申请这个电脑打字结果考选部就说不行因为你没有身心障碍证明"},{"start":24270.8,"end":24291.147,"text":"你只是学习障碍所以就不可以但是这个很明显就是他的这个障碍其实是会影响他的考试成绩的那今天刚好在讨论到第五条的时候这个身上团体也特别提出诉求就是说在实务上你在认定这个学习障碍"},{"start":24291.727,"end":24311.184,"text":"跟這一個身心障礙針對學習障礙的部分現在實務上顯然看出來有些問題了就是他的資源是不足的要嘛就是說你可以去強化學習障礙資源的部分的補強你看很明顯身心障礙跟領學習障礙只是申請打字喔身心障礙可以學習障礙"},{"start":24312.145,"end":24328.921,"text":"不行但是他有书写上面的障碍所以像这个就是一个很明显我们可能资源有不平均的一个情况那生长团体是希望说有一些学习障碍的类型是不是可以纳进来就是到这一个这边可以被认定"},{"start":24329.361,"end":24356.895,"text":"那我覺得這個應該都要考量就像剛剛委員提到的有一些人他是因為受傷他有一段時間他也是處在一個身心障礙者的階段但是可能很多的資源他沒有辦法去使用那這個我覺得我們既然重新來討論這個法就是說我們現在實務上面對到的問題是不是都可以重新大家好好來檢視那如果是整體的資源量不足"},{"start":24357.415,"end":24376.198,"text":"那我覺得是可以從補充這個資源量能的面向而不是一直排除一直排除就是怕大家進來這樣子我覺得應該是可以重新來定義跟思考以上謝謝好接下來王正旭委員好謝謝主席我也稍微回應一下大家剛剛針對第五條所關心到底"},{"start":24377.178,"end":24405.208,"text":"長期 間歇 短暫我以癌症病人為例事實上癌症病人當他被診斷的時候在英國就直接稱他是一個身心障礙者英國的制度是這樣那台灣當然就是如果一個癌症病人經過長期治療他可能會進入到這個身心障礙的階段的話我們在做相關的服務會就可以符合這個身心障礙的需求可是如果他是在新診斷"},{"start":24406.488,"end":24425.405,"text":"前面三個月半年裡面事實上他是最密集在接受治療的過程他這個時候所需要的服務面向是相對來講是重要的結果這個他反而是沒有機會能夠進到這個被服務的範圍裡面那癌症當然相對是複雜他有第一期第二期第三期第四期"},{"start":24426.065,"end":24448.912,"text":"那如果是第四期的癌症病人事實上他是應該是要進入到長期治療一個可能性可是不管怎麼樣通常他的治療還是會前半年所需要的服務量相對是比較需要社會來幫助他的所以針對這一點如何把這個想法也融入到未來我們針對於第五條再做修正的時候"},{"start":24449.492,"end":24470.593,"text":"除了剛剛署長有提到是不是有其他的方式可以把他修正見來或者是用附帶決議的方式來針對或者是用執法來做一些處理模式這個可能大家可以再思考看看因為的確如果他是第一級第二級他可能前面半年處理好後面就康復了"},{"start":24471.233,"end":24488.725,"text":"那他就不會是符合這個需求他對這個需求其實也不需要可是如果他是第三期甚至第四期的患者一般來講他的這個所需要的服務模式事實上是比較符合身心障礙者所需要的服務內容以上好 接下來請我們六位想召委"},{"start":24490.526,"end":24516.062,"text":"然後這個部分我也想要表達一下意見就是其實剛剛行政部門有說覺得損傷或不全是有一點歧視可是我認為那如果你現在寫缺損在障礙界其實也是會有同樣的問題如果你這樣考量的話所以我的意思是說或許我們也可以參照這個CRPD的第一條的人權模式的定義所以譬如說可以叫做本法所稱身心障礙者"},{"start":24517.003,"end":24538.84,"text":"包括但不限於肢體精神智力或感官損傷者其損傷與他人或環境相互作用可能阻礙身心障礙者平等充分有效參與社會好的這個這個概念去看做怎麼怎麼去做修正好我覺得這裡我想要提出這樣子的建議喔因為"},{"start":24540.001,"end":24549.896,"text":"因為如果你如果原本認為說這個損傷或不全都有這個歧視用語的話那我們是不是直接參照CRPD的這個概念去做一個調整好謝謝來請行政部門做回應"},{"start":24554.339,"end":24582.668,"text":"跟各位委員報告這個首先大概說明一下不全的這個部分那這個是在先前劉昭偉在主持相關公聽會的時候其實是先進站的朋友對於這個WORDING他們是覺得這個有貶抑的感覺那這個因為這個條文原來行政部門是沒有提出來那最早的時候其實之所以會用不全這樣的文字是因為"},{"start":24583.508,"end":24599.758,"text":"缺損這個部分在一般的解讀上會比較會認為它原來是它可能是因為某個原因會造成它喪失掉一部分的也許是相關的功能缺損比較容易有這樣的想像但是"},{"start":24601.079,"end":24626.664,"text":"我們在身心障礙者裡面可能有一部分的其實它並不是因為這些外在原因有可能是因為先天的也有可能是先天性的結果但是這個先天性的就沒有一個比較沒有所謂的過程性的問題所以當時是把損傷和不全這樣的一個去並列的時候大概是想要原來那個文字是比較有想要去呈現這樣子的一個目的但是這個wording也沒有這個對於"},{"start":24629.113,"end":24655.744,"text":"本来本意没有要对身心障碍者有任何贬义的想法但是这个身心障碍者对于这样的一个我表述的方式他还是希望能够是不是有在那天的公听会上是希望有没有一个不同的表述方式所以我们在今天的会上在今天审查的过程我们在经过检讨我们说我们会建议说是不是考虑用缺损这样的一个改用缺损这样的一个"},{"start":24656.264,"end":24684.566,"text":"文字來做一個調整這個先做一個背景的說明那第二個就是短暫的部分確實是如同王委員所提到的這個短期的部分不管是因為癌症或者是其他原因這個甚至是有可能騎摩托車因為交通事故他可能要幾個月的時間那這段時間都有可能會這個外觀上看起來他會不方便"},{"start":24685.347,"end":24703.006,"text":"那但是這樣的情況我們在總體從這個總體社會資源的角度來看的時候我們是不是需要把它納進來的話那因為我們的看法是目前總體對於身障的朋友來說我們希望把能夠是不是有機會把這個"},{"start":24705.309,"end":24726.181,"text":"這個相所有的這些資源更聚焦在這些它是有比較長期比較這個需求性更高的那因為在如果是有些透過醫療或者是透過這個醫療後端的急性後期的照顧他有機會去做恢復的話現在不管在健保或者是這個健保後期的PAC的部分"},{"start":24727.121,"end":24749.348,"text":"大概都已經有一些可以協助他們的地方所以我們大概最主要的建議是先不把這個所謂的短暫或者是短期這樣的概念放進來我們是覺得是不是有機會在這個資源的使用上面能夠更加的聚焦這個大概是我們一個初步的想法以上跟委員來做"},{"start":24751.209,"end":24768.27,"text":"報告那學習障礙的部分的話跟網友報告其實在現在的身心障礙鑑定制度裡面它在第一類的細分類裡面不管是閱讀功能或者書寫功能其實注意力不全的部分其實它是有被列進去的"},{"start":24769.652,"end":24786.79,"text":"所以如果他是真的到一定的程度照理講他是可以經過鑑定然後被認定為身心障礙那應該是可行的但是我們知道現在在社會上其實有很多他其實是相對在比較很輕微的階段"},{"start":24787.811,"end":24803.514,"text":"有些是在很轻微的阶段例如说英文小写的B跟D它会镜像的反射这一类相对比较轻微的那会不会是我不确定会不会有些是这种状况不太容易被也许是程度的问题不太容易被鉴定进来"},{"start":24804.094,"end":24828.851,"text":"或者是可能是訊息的不充分不曉得他可能程度到了但是因為訊息的不充分不曉得可以去做鑑定但是我想實務上目前在鑑定的類別裡面是已經有放進來所以你們是有讓有一些已經遇到學習障礙的可以進來一併鑑定是可以鑑定的那這樣連身障團體都還不清楚那你們的這個宣傳可能"},{"start":24832.354,"end":24850.033,"text":"要再更用力一點因為他們還特別拜託我們來持續的努力對他們還特別拜託就是而且實務上他的確遇到這樣的情況就是他持這一個就是學習障礙證明他就是沒有辦法這個考選部就不提供這個打字的服務今天教育部有來嗎"},{"start":24851.127,"end":24880.082,"text":"然後在考試院的部分那個應國考的部分的話是不是可能就要拜託我們今天有來嗎如果是不是有出席有出席是不是回憶一下來講一下就是他已經跟考選部申請結果還是是就說你沒有申請障礙證明所以你看我們相關的部會其實也是蠻僵化的就說不可以他在學校都可以申請打字但是為了應國考他去考設公司他說沒有辦法"},{"start":24880.542,"end":24898.849,"text":"報告委員報告主席就是考選部的部分呢就是我們通常在認定身障的部分還是要身障的那個證明但是如果他有學習障礙有這樣的需求的時候我們有一個叫做特殊處境處理原則他可以依照這個來申請然後我們一樣會送給專家學者去審核但是你們給他打回票了說不可以"},{"start":24900.95,"end":24927.816,"text":"對我現在不知道他是哪一個單項考試那是不是社工室的再請問一下他們當初的處理流程是什麼所以可以申請其他的我們的特殊處境處理原則還是可以做其他方面的處理如果他不是如果他非伸張屬於非伸張的部分對啊他是學習障礙對他如果有書寫閱讀的障礙的話還是可以做其他的考量可以申請電腦達字嗎他只要有書寫跟閱讀障礙都可以但是要經過審核還是要經過審核"},{"start":24930.811,"end":24930.972,"text":"還是要經過審核"},{"start":24938.857,"end":24960.995,"text":"所以你们还是以身障为前提吗我现在在跟你讲就是说有一些他可能在这个中间他是血洗障碍他也是他不是说天生肢体上面的产权他就是血洗障碍他在书写方面会比较困难所以在考试的时候打字才会对他有利因为他如果要慢慢的这样子书写他会有缺漏那这种类型到底可不可以"},{"start":24961.175,"end":24986.386,"text":"我们用特殊处境处理原则是可以的但是还是要经过专家来审核因为它涉及到公平性的问题因为这个案例他自己在脸书就PO出来他说就是被考选部拒绝那可能看他个案当初经过委员审核的情况是什么我们现在不清楚那你们应该回去检讨好不好就是说如果是这种学习障碍连他们在鉴定的时候都开放这一个类型是可以一起鉴定那考选部你们就不应该执着只有身心障碍证明"},{"start":24986.846,"end":25009.089,"text":"所以我们另外有一个叫特殊处境处理原则可以做另外的处理肺肾脏的部分这个案例我请他们再去找你们看他当时是遇到什么问题这是肾脏团体转过来很具体的个案先请范园委员发言之后我们的廖昭伟然后再来王振旭范园委员"},{"start":25011.416,"end":25032.309,"text":"我剛剛聽到那個州署長的回應是擔心說資源不夠所以希望聚焦在長期的身心障礙者可以理解你想要聚焦這個用心是好的可是其實我們在講的事情是說有時候你那個網開大一點有一些非常需要的人他才有機會進來"},{"start":25033.83,"end":25062.02,"text":"那因為大部分很短暫的他根本就不會想要這麼的麻煩去被鑑定那你竟然有一個專業團隊鑑定的把關機制那為什麼不在這邊把這個長期間歇或短暫然後放入那當然剛剛委員其他的委員講到說我們的努力應該是要增加這個資源不要讓大家覺得資源不足然後好像還要一定要聚焦在長期因為他今天如果"},{"start":25062.62,"end":25087.375,"text":"半年一年那他如果真的非常的影響他的就是參與活動跟平等參與社會生活的話那他又願意去鑑定為什麼不把這個空間給他像剛剛王醫師的例子非常好在英國癌症的初期就自動會是一個符合這個身障的資源那我想就是有些人可能在某些地方他就需要用"},{"start":25088.436,"end":25111.117,"text":"身障的車位或是等等那你與其在這邊讓他連這個被評鑑的機會都沒有不如就是說你在評鑑的時候再把關程度的差異你要怎麼處理那在這裡先讓他有這個空間那能夠照顧到其中有一些雖然不是長期可是非常需要的人以上好接下來請我們廖委長召委"},{"start":25112.27,"end":25139.931,"text":"然後這個部分我也想要幫這個障礙團體發表一下意見我認為可以這樣子修改啦因為我也認同說要把這個資源聚焦沒有錯但是可以這樣子修改他們說本法所稱身心障礙者只具有長期之肢體精神智力或感官損傷應該損傷與環境或態度之障礙相互作用至阻礙其"},{"start":25141.172,"end":25149.505,"text":"在與他人平等基礎上充分有效參與社會者我覺得是不是可以考量這個方式接下來王振旭委員"},{"start":25154.517,"end":25175.817,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席我也稍微再回應一下剛剛範圍委員所提出來的一個想法其實無立法委員他在這條修法裡面的最後一項他有期待期待如果真的是符合所謂的間歇短暫的部分那有沒有用執法來做另外的規範"},{"start":25177.179,"end":25194.82,"text":"我要提出來還是以癌症為例即使癌症病人他現在放射治療是一個重要的治療模式他會在半年裡面需要密集的去接受每一天一次到兩次一個禮拜五天這樣的治療模式以前很有可能就是讓他去住院"},{"start":25197.065,"end":25215.657,"text":"可是我們不期待這樣的病人住院治療可是他還是需要有相對的需求存在這個時候如果用變通的方法讓他能夠有機會來接受比較完整的服務模式事實上他可以節省更多的醫療資源導致這邊造成的影響"},{"start":25216.677,"end":25242.155,"text":"我意思說如果我們有一些變通的做法或者是在法律上可以給予適當的支持的時候其實對這一群人是相當有幫助的那我們也都很理解所有的資源應該是要用在最適當的地方可是他其實他並沒有不適當只是說我們怎麼去看待這個事情而已以上好 接下來陳昭志委"},{"start":25245.61,"end":25269.322,"text":"謝謝主席我很想繼續說服這個州署長第一個長短期其實你要去定義這個短期其實當然你要把它區分但是區分老實說你有辦法非常明確嗎第二個就是說我要提醒也是在衛福部長那個巴氏量表那個我們除了年老者我們也有一個剛剛王醫師一直提到的就是癌症第幾期之後"},{"start":25270.442,"end":25279.808,"text":"我們也是就是說得免八十兩百那為什麼因為他需要需要被照顧嘛那你現在如果完全排除這個部分我覺得身障者那個期待會真的會很會落空他們他們需求的時候你現在就完全不排完全排除了那這個做法還是你有什麼方式你到底是我不知道逐漸導入公不公平我不知道但是就是說完全排除是對他們是還蠻難過的"},{"start":25297.779,"end":25317.816,"text":"那再來就是說我們現在醫療剛剛因為提到醫院現在跟我們的身體的功能那當然醫療也不關係你知道我們現在醫療也是都主張不是住院方式治療我們現在很多前進到包括王醫生剛剛講我們都前進到盡量在醫院停留一段時間然後就回家"},{"start":25318.476,"end":25343.635,"text":"那這種東西有時候就是持續性的一段時間因為治療不是一輩子的治療那這個時候其實真的是很需要有很需要這個來提供這是他們需要的一個服務所以我請署長再思考我剛剛講的這幾個點包括八字輪胎為什麼也在這個某一群病人也把他打開了除了80歲以上也把他打開了一定有他的這個理由謝謝"},{"start":25345.956,"end":25368.992,"text":"我想兩邊都談了蠻多我認為現在就是先休息十分鐘請好等吳立華委員發言完之後我們就休息十分鐘來請到時候請衛福部重新考慮文字思考有沒有更能夠周延的定義或來讓委員知道再做溝通好那來吳立華委員"},{"start":25369.172,"end":25385.577,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席因為第五條到第七條是這一次就是藏權團體他們非常重視的所以我也提出修正動議那希望可以讓藏權團體的法案他們的想法可以一起被討論"},{"start":25386.497,"end":25397.981,"text":"是這樣子的就是長期以來他們感受到的就是很多的障礙者他想要獲得一些合理的調整支持服務或者就業輔具的時候很容易就會被問說你有證明嗎就被擋在門外所以這個部分其實他們也有一些他們的看法"},{"start":25405.243,"end":25424.425,"text":"那就是希望說藉著這一次的這個帳權法的大修那我們能不能夠就是從一個要求人們不斷需要去證明自己不夠障礙的社會走向一個願意檢視制度是否本身就造成阻礙並主動移除這些阻礙的一個社會"},{"start":25425.206,"end":25454.208,"text":"所以這一次的修正我是想說採身心障礙者權利公約的人權模式全面去涵蓋面臨環境阻礙的障礙者因為障礙者不是只有存在個人身上他是損傷跟不友善環境交互作用的結果這個也讓我想到一個例子因為我過去在學校服務就像我們的營養午餐攪不起這種從過去一定要拿中低收入戶證明"},{"start":25455.169,"end":25481.384,"text":"其實後來就改成只要村長或只要導師願意幫你出具證明就可以了那我覺得對我們的這些帳權人士來講身心障礙者來講其實我們在其他地方都能夠給出這樣彈性的措施我覺得更不應該在這樣的法裡面去看到各式各樣的不友善跟障礙應該是要更能有大的彈性 謝謝"},{"start":25483.564,"end":25489.673,"text":"好 宣布現在休息十分鐘然後請我們的行政部門跟委員們做溝通 以上"},{"start":25503.513,"end":25504.054,"text":"反正我現在可以"},{"start":25522.195,"end":25531.018,"text":"謝謝大家收看"},{"start":25540.162,"end":25558.968,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":25584.259,"end":25585.46,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":25586.78,"end":25589.301,"text":"我的意思是說因為之前大家已經"},{"start":25616.772,"end":25617.893,"text":"所以我現在"},{"start":25649.169,"end":25661.099,"text":"行政跟跟這個"},{"start":25670.4,"end":25682.911,"text":"這個第一項可以用它的這個方式然後第二項啊事實上是原的表文是它這裡經營資助所以這下面這東西每個都是保存的所以它那個現實的經營資助都還可以"},{"start":25685.913,"end":25706.442,"text":"對,對,對"},{"start":25713.024,"end":25728.709,"text":"好,好,好,那你們就是第八個,我本來是想說,"},{"start":25730.17,"end":25754.728,"text":"謝謝 因為這個參與感會是不夠突破的那時候會不會很不幸因為相關關鍵是他們的核心是這一輩子才能夠爭取那個重點威脅那你覺得這次的參與感會是在什麼地方需要進步的好 好 好好的 比較關鍵的就是這次的參與感會是在什麼地方"},{"start":25759.451,"end":25777.363,"text":"這張圖是在2014年10月1日拍攝的。這張圖是在2014年10月1日拍攝的。"},{"start":25786.447,"end":25793.31,"text":"我覺得這樣就好了"},{"start":25806.614,"end":25820.282,"text":"但是如果他沒有"},{"start":25826.824,"end":25830.285,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":25846.969,"end":25852.19,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":25883.426,"end":25889.391,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":25894.275,"end":25918.507,"text":"5,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,"},{"start":25920.187,"end":25939.791,"text":"這個不確定法律概念"},{"start":25953.054,"end":25969.959,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":25975.362,"end":25975.602,"text":"主席"},{"start":26011.606,"end":26012.187,"text":"副市長"},{"start":26031.026,"end":26035.811,"text":"在學校的時候是特生,然後就我出了社會,然後我就變普通人"},{"start":26055.099,"end":26058.621,"text":"學校特訓"},{"start":26063.114,"end":26082.21,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":26085.072,"end":26091.196,"text":"副主席"},{"start":26112.091,"end":26118.264,"text":"他們兩個都在那邊廁所靠近"},{"start":26121.988,"end":26144.974,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":26150.555,"end":26165.247,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":26172.044,"end":26185.293,"text":"所以你會聽到我的話"},{"start":26207.024,"end":26208.145,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":26215.189,"end":26236.947,"text":"請稍後再講"},{"start":26245.367,"end":26275.367,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":26275.367,"end":26293.37,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":26321.226,"end":26342.904,"text":"好 我們繼續開會第五條因為這個公約裡面說這個是長期損傷嘛那委員的版本通常是什麼短暫的間歇那他們都是說不要用這樣子齁那那個廖長偉剛剛有用這個東西有一個建議"},{"start":26368.058,"end":26372.06,"text":"第五條行政機關是有針對委員的意見提案"},{"start":26373.392,"end":26387.162,"text":"修正的部分有在做一些文字上的一個調整對不對 修正對 螢幕上請各位就享越電視上的螢幕的文字"},{"start":26397.813,"end":26416.618,"text":"要不要先請署長還是次長要補充這個如同剛才在休息前跟各位委員報告我們去查閱了一下CRPD身心障礙者權利公約對於身心障礙者的定義"},{"start":26418.559,"end":26431.373,"text":"這個定義裡面基本上它的概念也是以長期的損傷當作其中的一個元素所以我們比較針對各委員的版本的提案我們還是建議"},{"start":26434.815,"end":26460.723,"text":"我們現行條文文字其實雖然沒有寫長期但是在鑑定的時候都會要確定它的障礙的狀況尤其是委員在提案的版本提到的短暫的部分我們會比較建議是不是有機會是不要納進來"},{"start":26461.903,"end":26489.32,"text":"那有關在間歇的這樣的一個情況的時候其實我們是覺得其實在鑑定的時候在鑑定方法上面它是應該是可以處理因為它如果是一段時間只是這個情況有好有壞這個部分這種狀況我們覺得它其實是可以去處理的不管是這個精神性的或者是其他的它這一類狀況在鑑定技術上面應該是可以處理的"},{"start":26489.8,"end":26509.788,"text":"所以我們會建議這個部分是不是有可能還是儘可能的我們會建議優先是不是先維持現有的維持現行的條文那這個對於短期的部分是不是有要能夠去給他更多的協助的部分"},{"start":26510.428,"end":26525.37,"text":"那我們的想法是縱然在這邊定義不一定納進來那或許是將來在相關的計畫或者是有的這個在資源容許的情況之下也許個別性的計畫我們是不是也許有機會"},{"start":26526.491,"end":26547.257,"text":"除了在現有的不管是健保或者是這個急性後期相關的照顧之外如果有還有額外的資源的話那也許可以在個別的計畫裡面我們來嘗試著是不是就這個不一定要透過立法在直接計畫的階段就有關短期的部分我們再來嘗試做一些相關的處理以上"},{"start":26548.601,"end":26576.43,"text":"好 謝謝再請廖昭偉因為你剛剛在講短期長期的問題所以我是覺得第一個現在的這個條文用的方式比較像是用醫療模式或者社會模式來定義這個所謂的神經障礙者那我們覺得還是應該要像這個CRPD的人權模式的定義但是所以我剛剛講一個就是說你也可以解決你所謂短期長期問題我們照他的去稍微去修正也就是我剛剛念過了"},{"start":26577.591,"end":26592.79,"text":"本法所稱身心障礙者只具有長期之肢體精神智力或感官損傷那應該損傷與環境或態度之障礙相互作用至阻礙其在與他人平等基礎上充分有效參與社會"},{"start":26594.252,"end":26608.569,"text":"我覺得第一項可以寫這樣那後面的包含你所謂的這個後面的相關的規範或是相關的這個怎麼去鑑定這件事情其實還是就是還是可以保留只是你把定義上讓他更"},{"start":26610.111,"end":26626.594,"text":"更有這個跟國際節約委更有這個人權模式的基礎這樣子我的建議是這樣那這個部分我相信我們的劉昭偉他的再修正動議也是類也是一樣的概念對我們默契都很好請行政單位跟我們也默契一些好再請王育民委員"},{"start":26630.176,"end":26642.822,"text":"第5條剛剛大家其實討論蠻多的那我覺得委員們其實要的是一個就是因為你現在你一直強調長期其實他就是一個比較僵化的模式我必須這樣講就是說你很嚴謹"},{"start":26644.022,"end":26670.47,"text":"然後就是你只會針對的確是長期他會長期持有身心障礙證明者去提供服務但是實際上整個社會的運作你會發現說有些人他會因為疾病或者是傷害的確他會變成是也是一個身心障礙者但是在你的現行的整個運作底下會變成他們可以得到的支持跟服務相對是就是等於是被排除啦"},{"start":26671.05,"end":26699.973,"text":"比較多是被排除除了有一些是醫療的可能例外還有一些之外所以我是覺得剛剛那個署長講的蠻好的你說你們可以透過一個計劃那我的意思是我們可不可以在這個法條裡面最後就是加一項就你剛剛那個計劃的概念就是說如果有因為疾病傷害有點類似吳麗華委員提出來這樣一個概念就是把它寫在這裡面那如果"},{"start":26701.246,"end":26723.739,"text":"不是寫在這裡面至少附帶決議也要寫或者是立法說明要寫因為我覺得我們現在重新再回來看生權法我們就不希望有一些他明明已經是跟身障者遇到同樣的處境但是他又得不到一些相關資源的協助跟幫忙"},{"start":26725.017,"end":26737.085,"text":"就是剛剛署長提的是一個類似一個你又一個專案計劃你有彈性針對這一類型的他可能沒有到長期但你也願意去去提供有一些的協助跟幫忙"},{"start":26738.174,"end":26764.336,"text":"因為我覺得剛剛委員要的跟你們堅持的有一點難融合在一起那是不是可以經過大家討論有類似這樣的一個因為原來吳委員這邊提的也是授權讓你們就是說你們可以另行再去訂一個計劃就是他一樣因為疾病或傷害他有也社會參與整體都受限了"},{"start":26765.632,"end":26786.789,"text":"我是覺得這個條文看起來相對合理就不要去改你們前面你們前面你們很在意我們去改你什麼變成什麼短期啊短暫啊間歇啊你們不希望更改前面嗎等於是說前面都不動你的情況底下我們再增加就是像這樣子你們可以考慮看看我覺得大家距離蠻遙遠的所以這樣"},{"start":26789.781,"end":26816.944,"text":"來 請市長那個主席還有各位委員大家好那個我從早上聽到現在我要第五條的定例我現在先說幾個我的觀察好不好第一個CRPD基本上是視同是一部憲章它是一個convention或是一個charter它的位階是這樣可是我們現在定的是法律我是希望大家能夠我們都希望衛生障礙權利好"},{"start":26817.705,"end":26822.292,"text":"但是問題就是說我們要訂的是一個實際可執行的具有可操作性的"},{"start":26823.069,"end":26852.068,"text":"好那在法律我們現在目前最讓大家最重要的爭議就是說這裡面第五條牽涉到的是有關聲音障礙者定義還有怎麼去用ICF的方式去找出來為什麼因為你領到這一個聲音障礙的這一個證明之後你有會牽涉到他是一個給付行政啦你會牽涉到很多很多的權利還有政府端必須要出去的出去的義務包括第一個保費的補助健保保費各項的保費補助第二個稅負的減免第三個大眾運輸"},{"start":26853.55,"end":26875.491,"text":"票價一連串的一個整個Welfare Benefit好所以我們現在目前就是說這個Certification的一個整個它會牽涉到整個資源分配所以這一點我必務必要請委員要這個要這是第二點第三點剛剛講的最重要事實上是一個問題就是說ICF的鑑定裡面除了剛剛講的長期這個毫無疑問大家都同意"},{"start":26876.272,"end":26892.381,"text":"可是現在有問題現在就是說有一些不確定的我說不確定我等一下再請我們這一個負責ICF的這個金梅副市長他跟大家報告一下就是說在裡面有一些borderline的一個部分我現在舉個例子中風你看中風大概大家都知道它黃金治療期是三個月可是它是可逆的"},{"start":26893.402,"end":26907.131,"text":"對不對他三個月之後經過一個Medical Rehabilitation之後他可有可能他本來是在可能二到八級他可能五六級之後還有可能會是可逆的那你現在這個時候你在不確定的情況之下你硬要塞給他一個診療證明我認為這裡面"},{"start":26909.813,"end":26925.747,"text":"可能也要甚至還有比如說我現在比如說有精神疾病可是我現在經過到某一個level之後積極的治療或消極的治療之後它在一定時間之後還是有可能回過來我是覺得這一個對於這個所謂的不確定的這個部分"},{"start":26926.468,"end":26950.647,"text":"我是覺得應該我等一下是不是可以允許讓那個青梅這邊你簡單跟大家講一下就是說這裡面實務上面的一個遷到的問題那是不是我們現在目前的顧慮也可以跟委員這邊能夠大家能夠求取一個平衡點但是我現在必須要講CRPD是一個convention你現在用了convention你用憲法來規定來他當然是我們的根本大法可是他不能去"},{"start":26951.528,"end":26963.486,"text":"具體試用上面這會牽涉到權力義務請允許我引一個不太好的案例不要弄到後來這個變成是一個聲音障礙權力的壯士代法"},{"start":26965.558,"end":26983.674,"text":"對啊你現在弄到後來你本來就是有一個要我們對於行政機關而言我們要的是要有清楚的一個界定因為我還是要強調一下行政機關這裡面簽到這個整個行政法的作用以及相對應的權利義務關係所以這一點請大家要慎思謝謝請青梅跟大家簡單說明好來請說明"},{"start":26987.802,"end":27009.114,"text":"這邊是衛福部照護師那我們這邊有負責身心障礙鑑定作業那依照身權法的第五條跟第六條的一個授權我們定有身心障礙鑑定作業辦法那其實在本法或者在我們鑑定作業辦法裡面都沒有特別去強調拿到身心障礙資格或是要去鑑定必須要"},{"start":27009.674,"end":27027.769,"text":"看三個月六個月或多久 這個要先聲明這一點雖然在CRPD裡面強調是一個比較長期的一個概念但是我們在生權法或相關的執法都沒有特別去限定它的一個鑑定的一個條件我們只有在鑑定作業辦法裡面"},{"start":27028.269,"end":27051.777,"text":"有要求要做鑑定的時候要持有鑑定表還有三個月內的就醫診斷跟或者是相關的就醫紀錄可以提供我們的專科醫師做相關的判定他的身體的一個系統構造或者他的功能的障礙的一個狀況這是第二個要強調的那另外在我們鑑定作業辦法裡面的副表我們只有針對因為我們有八大類"},{"start":27052.697,"end":27077.624,"text":"那我們特別針對特殊類因為類別的這個差異性很大所以特別針對創傷或罹患慢性精神疾患就像剛剛次長說的他可能會造成一些身體構造會功能損傷他經過治療之後他沒有辦法矯正或脫離這個顯著的失能所以醫師他可以推論他未來可能不可逆就可以給他證明這還是回到專業的判定"},{"start":27078.204,"end":27104.031,"text":"另外針對罕見疾病我們特別針對六歲以前如果他出生就是已經這個是被診斷是一個罕見疾病的一個狀態我們希望他六歲以後因為這一段他經過早療的一個治療評估以後或許他還有一個可逆的情況他希望六歲以後能夠再鑑定一次那還有一個特別的就是針對排汗功能或是燒燙傷這一類的"},{"start":27106.512,"end":27131.713,"text":"大面積的燒燙傷他經過一個積極的治療譬如說穿過這個壓力衣等等他還是沒有辦法恢復那我們就會給他所以我們根據各個不同的類別就給這個在建議評估的部分有個建議的一個觀察時間都沒有去限定多久才可以做鑑定這是主要的一個法治上的一個精神要跟各位做報告"},{"start":27132.433,"end":27148.921,"text":"那如果說委員這邊建議說有一個什麼長期短暫或三個月內寫在這個母法的文字反而會限定了這個大家對於這個短期三個月或間歇這樣的一個不明確的一個概念還有後續操作上的一個問題再請次長補充"},{"start":27156.229,"end":27164.615,"text":"那個簡單說明剛剛我們那個經理副市長他簡單講就是說我們的鑑定作業裡面都沒有特別定義就是說一定要半年或一年才能拿到評估我要強調"},{"start":27166.164,"end":27191.197,"text":"最重要什麼東西呢你只要持有鑑定表在三個月內就診記錄去跟醫師那邊我們就可以拿到所以程序上面來說這個反而是有彈性的而且醫師基本上都會以醫病人最佳利益所以你現在目前訂了一個不確定的法律概念在裡面所謂而且醫學上面medically沒有辦法去確定的那個什麼什麼什麼什麼遠期什麼東西反而會造成整個認定上的混亂這是第一點另外第二點"},{"start":27191.957,"end":27217.503,"text":"我知道就所有聲音障礙者一定都希望都是認為自己都是長期啦我講我背就是這樣啦就好像學生都認為我自己的成績一定是100分可是這裡面還是要經過一個鑑定程序跟考試程序而那個鑑定人要嘛不是醫師要嘛不是老師要嘛就是某某人這個對不起這個就是一個程序上面必須要有的一個整個程序"},{"start":27220.613,"end":27225.883,"text":"這個我也必須要把行政機關這邊相關的SOP也跟各位來做一個報告 謝謝剛剛社長這樣"},{"start":27234.569,"end":27263.53,"text":"隱喻我覺得有點怪怪的事務上可能在整個檢定認定上的一個行政作為我覺得這個這個可能事務上的一些問題這個我倒可以接受不過我講總之這樣子認定自己是永遠都長期的比喻考試100分這個有點奇怪的這個批論怪怪的請小心批喻我是覺得是這樣三個月六個月有再來一個法條嗎"},{"start":27268.579,"end":27296.078,"text":"對有委員提到什麼三個月六個月這個在第五條沒有行政院版的沒有修那委員提案的修法是在第五條建議加改成有這個三個月還有六不是因為因為院版沒有知道那其他委員有有大眾的版本是提到所謂三個月六個月的這樣的一個沒有啊也沒有人提到這個東西啊"},{"start":27297.361,"end":27309.016,"text":"所以我說的也一定對各位給行政機關再做一個參考我想為什麼為什麼很多人都要參照這個CRPD的第一條"},{"start":27311.16,"end":27331.79,"text":"這個市長可能大家要互相能夠理解當然不需要把一個法例定到像憲法那種未接然後導致很難去好像很抽象然後又很廣泛然後又講到好像未接很高到時候藍瑜去執行我想委員本也不希望發生這種事情"},{"start":27332.33,"end":27347.524,"text":"不過他的面相應該是這樣是說從醫療的一個模式走向到人權的這樣的一個模式也從這個醫療病理特徵列舉的疾病改為社會模式所以就有所謂的長期的損傷加"},{"start":27350.247,"end":27375.368,"text":"這個環境的障礙應該是這樣的一個一個範疇他島部沒有再講到所謂三個月六個月的這樣的一個或許是不是有剛好有單一的個別委員有提到這樣的一個認定那這個我們尊重這個東西如果要把它納入確實有檢討的空間那第二個部分是說因為我們是要修就要修得更好所以是要接軌這個整個國際的人權標準"},{"start":27377.682,"end":27399.054,"text":"因為我們當然也讓醫師來做專業的一個鑑定所以就是依賴所謂的醫療鑑定但是有些是不是會有些漏網之魚就導致許多受限在社會環境但未符合醫療標準的障礙者卻被排除在保障之外"},{"start":27401.761,"end":27414.538,"text":"這個大家是不是可以思考一下有沒有這樣的狀況這樣的實例等一下我再來做就像市長剛剛的列舉所以是確認障礙是損傷與環境態度與障礙交互作用的一個結果"},{"start":27416.059,"end":27444.566,"text":"CRPD是在處理這樣的一個這個定義的範疇是在講這些事情然後我們是要擴大這個保障的光譜所以才會有一個新的定義功能受限與社會參與障礙所以這是意味著即便沒有特定疾病的名稱但是只要他是長期身心受損身心損傷且在這個社會互動中面臨障礙者僅應被我們政府把它視為應該保障的對象的一個主體"},{"start":27446.105,"end":27465.761,"text":"然後最後就是希望透過這個我們的法律文字的一個修正轉變也是宣示國家政策從治療矯正個人然後轉向這個移除社會障礙來維護障礙者尊嚴所以到底文字應該怎麼樣來修我當然也是期待行政單位可以有"},{"start":27466.587,"end":27476.901,"text":"有一個比較好的一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個"},{"start":27482.328,"end":27496.759,"text":"最終的一個比較好的一個版本那最後是這樣就是說我們原有這個領有身心障礙者證明的這個對象事實上他還是可以透過第六條的修正去規範還是避免既有這個服務的範圍無限擴大"},{"start":27499.04,"end":27527.267,"text":"第7條也應該可以來做這個適度的擴大範圍 透過審查方式來檢核沒有證明的心臟者應該享有一定程度服務這應該是有分做層次的567在第5條第6條第7條所以我也敬請各位委員是不是可以再對照一下 再看一下567我們再來處理這第5條那我們就先行針對第5條保留好 謝謝"},{"start":27530.224,"end":27544.997,"text":"來次長請請說請說非常同意那個剛剛主席的一個才是還剛剛各位其實我基本上也認為就是說過傳統的確實是醫療模式所以我們在這一個我們的ICF裡面的D碼跟E碼我跟各位委員報告在2024年7月的時候"},{"start":27547.178,"end":27565.345,"text":"D碼跟E碼主要事實上就是剛剛主席剛好特別談到了就是有關於那個社會環境社會環境等等這些因素還有環境因素我們都有把它納入了這個是一個比較大的一個改變這個7月就已經開始也不錯補充說明 謝謝7月就今年的7月嗎2024的7月"},{"start":27568.906,"end":27593.069,"text":"就是我們裡面有幾個編碼其中剛剛委員剛剛所說的環境跟社會因素我們在七月就已經開始編入所以他在做ICF裡面就不純粹僅只是他的醫療個人那邊的問題而且會考慮到剛剛講的環境跟社會來做總體的三方面的評估生理生理還有環境還有社會三方面共同評估以上謝謝"},{"start":27594.01,"end":27600.139,"text":"好 謝謝次長的補充說明謝謝 沒關係我們第五條還是先保留啦 謝謝那我們繼續來審查"},{"start":27603.32,"end":27626.388,"text":"院板所提的第六條然後委員羅美玲 劉建國蔡玉 何欣淳還有陳清輝 林月琴 吳麗華盧憲一 李坤城等還有修正動議有第一案就是委員林月琴對不起 委員盧憲淳所提的修正動議還有修正動議第三案"},{"start":27627.228,"end":27633.753,"text":"也是林岳勤委員所提 還有行政動議第12案 李建國委員所提那我們先請行政擔任來做說明"},{"start":27639.428,"end":27667.211,"text":"針對行政院版的修正第六條的修正草案其實主要都是針對在鑑定申請流程過程中他需要去這個主要是文字去做一些相對的調整主要的修正重點在第二項的後段他是授權事項上面能夠去做更明確的表述包括身心鑑定人員的資格條件使用的鑑定工具及"},{"start":27667.731,"end":27682.675,"text":"在身心障礙無法減輕或是恢復的一些基準那我們在這邊能夠有更明確的授權那各個委員的版本的部分那其中針對盧憲毅委員的提案的部分有提到"},{"start":27686.71,"end":27701.019,"text":"這個鑑定的部分要去有相關的使用的語文的部分那這個針對這個部分依照國家語言發展法的規定那這個本來就是可以使用相關的國家語言國民在參與"},{"start":27702.88,"end":27716.896,"text":"政府機關構行政程序的時候可以使用這個國家語言國家語言是有包含原住民族語言的那必要時候可以來使用同意的服務所以這個部分等於是在這個國家語言發展"},{"start":27717.517,"end":27743.862,"text":"不管在原住民法或者國家語言發展法裡面已經有相對應的一些條文可以來做處理那這個部分如果有需要的話我想在執行面的部分那也可以來協我們怎麼樣來協助目前現有的鑑定的機構來能夠在這個部分能夠做到更精緻化那另外針對吳立華委員的修正動議的部分有針對這個"},{"start":27752.417,"end":27766.935,"text":"有提到是沒有取得身心障礙證明他也可以使用若干的一些相關的服務那這個部分的話這個大概跟現在鑑定的做法上面"},{"start":27768.276,"end":27786.168,"text":"這個以本法來看大概都是先會處理到經過鑑定符合資格的時候那再根據他的需求來去提供相對應的一些能夠去服務的處理那這個部分的話在現行的結構上面會有很大的不一樣那會變成沒有"},{"start":27786.989,"end":27810.938,"text":"等於某種角度會解讀成是他不是身心障礙者但是可以使用身心障礙服務那怎麼樣去認定這個非身心障礙者的他可以使用服務的範疇的部分這點在現在的操作上面會有比較大的一個空間會有一個比較大認定上面的一個技術上的困難"},{"start":27811.658,"end":27835.809,"text":"那我們召委的部分的第六條大概也是有提到這個部分的條文的修正的草案那我們是建議這個部分可能在處理上大概也會有類似的處理上的一些困難那所以我們會建議是不是可以依照行政院版的這個條文來做通過 以上好 謝謝處長的說明來請盧縣立委"},{"start":27841.873,"end":27860.445,"text":"謝謝召委就是就修正理由就是因為原住民族長者跟生長者常因為到都會區產生語言不通或是對主流社會的測驗工具比如說認知功能的評估不夠熟悉導致鑑定的結果失真所以應該在法條中明定考量語言文化的特性"},{"start":27861.045,"end":27885.798,"text":"有具文化敏感度的專業人員協助以充分保障原住民族族人取得正確的身障身分跟相對應的福利所以我在第一項部分據點之後就是增加對原住民族身心障礙者鑑定應考兩級語言文化特性必以慣用語言進行必要是應有具原住民族文化敏感度的專業人員協助來增加這幾行字 謝謝"},{"start":27888.99,"end":27914.417,"text":"對好謝謝盧委員還有哪位委員沒有那如果沒有是不是請署長再針對盧委員的提案做個說明就盧委員的提案的部分這個語言的部分的話那個因為考慮到現在在那個國家語言發展法裡面有相關的規範而且委員提到事項其實有"},{"start":27915.977,"end":27929.987,"text":"我們會建議是從執行面的部分我們怎麼樣來做一個加強那因為規定現在不管是在規定上面語言發展法或者是我們現在身心障礙鑑定的那個鑑定書鑑定申請書上面"},{"start":27931.829,"end":27946.488,"text":"對於這個申請鑑定申請人他使用的語文上面其實他是使用哪種語文其實在一開始就會把它列進去所以鑑定機構在一開始應該就會知道他所需要使用的語文種類"},{"start":27947.649,"end":27970.391,"text":"但是確實如同委員所提到有些鑑定機構可能在遇到尤其在都會區的時候如果是遇到這個原住民族然後比較高齡他需要做語言協助的部分可能在資源上面是比較不充分那我們會建議這個部分因為他是比較偏重在執行事項的部分我們會建議這個部分是不是有可能"},{"start":27971.071,"end":27998.326,"text":"我們用一個附帶決議的方式把這個部分要加強的部分怎麼樣來加強這些相關機構的訓練以及資源的補充的部分那我們把它做成一個這個附帶決議來做相關的處理來 我們來做這樣的建議不知道是不是可行 以上OK 好如果你同意用附帶決議那那個文字的話我們是不是我們來做我們先來處理一下我們再來給委員這邊來做一個過目"},{"start":28000.542,"end":28028.416,"text":"好那第1個條件看起來大家沒有多大的意見所以基本上就尊重依照院版來通過嘛那個再請行政單位提出這個互待決議的文字之後再來做最後的確定好謝謝那我們繼續審查院版所提第7條然後有委員羅美玲 劉建國"},{"start":28029.922,"end":28054.168,"text":"臺灣民眾黨 臺灣民眾黨團還有蔡宇宇 何欣淳林月琴 范雲 吳麗華 王育民盧憲一 萬美玲 李坤城等的委員的這個提案修正那還有修正動議是修正動議第一案是盧憲一委員所提還有林月琴所提的"},{"start":28055.6,"end":28073.607,"text":"這個修正動議第4案還有劉建國委員所提的修正動議第12案好我們請行政單位來做說明行政院版的修正條文第7條那這個部分主要的修正內容"},{"start":28077.799,"end":28094.304,"text":"大概都是針對文字的部分去做相對應的處理那各委員的版本的部分有比較不同的地方那只是第一個是吳立華委員的版吳立華委員提案的版本和吳立華委員台灣民眾黨範圍委員版本是將這個"},{"start":28097.825,"end":28116.974,"text":"提案因素裡面主要是家庭經濟情況或者家庭生活需求這樣的把家庭兩個字去做刪除我們主要是考量到在評估的過程裡面他所需要的看到家庭裡面的"},{"start":28118.895,"end":28145.888,"text":"生意障礙者在家庭中的在家宅裡面生活的狀況的時候那這個除了個人當然還是會有需要含括到整個家庭總體的情況所以我們建議這個家庭的部分這樣的文字我們是比較建議先不要予以刪除那另外包括王詠明委員 萬美玲委員有建議到在需求的評估的過程裡面"},{"start":28146.528,"end":28168.926,"text":"把就業輔導的需求是不是能夠納進來我們是建議的是說因為在鑑定過程裡面大概先初步的時候比較以目前的主要鑑定的機制都是針對比較憑他現有的功能性的功能或者是疾病的狀況的部分來做相關主要鑑定的內容"},{"start":28169.446,"end":28183.603,"text":"那如果是把就業的部分納進來的話他會有一點難度的是說這個以現在鑑定機構的鑑定能力跟他在就業時的狀況來講可能在鑑定的技術上面會有一定程度的困難"},{"start":28184.344,"end":28200.123,"text":"所以我們是建議這個就業輔導的部分是後續在他曾鑑定成為身心障礙者之後他所提供的服務在他的需求裡面不管是未來他可能需要的輔具或者是"},{"start":28201.524,"end":28219.137,"text":"這個職場上面的一些工作的調整相關的需求等等在服務面的時候再把就業輔導的部分能夠把它增訂進來但是不用在一開始鑑定端的時候把它拉進去這樣比較容易會增加這個鑑定上技術上面的一個難度"},{"start":28220.498,"end":28237.509,"text":"這個我們會建議是不是有可能先不用納進來那盧縣議委員也有提也有這個版本他提到的是這個對於原住民的生活型態的部分所以在是不是要把它納進來那我們也是考慮到說在鑑定過程裡面這個"},{"start":28239.23,"end":28266.825,"text":"后续的一些生活需求的部分可能还是针对在未来服务端的时候再来做相关的提供那在前端鉴定的时候是不是有可能我们就聚焦在它的功能和疾病的状况那我们来做相关的评估那总体我们会建议另外这个在修正动议的部分武力华委员的部分已经纳进来然后我们召委的部分"},{"start":28269.667,"end":28294.454,"text":"有提到的那朝委的部分也是提到對於有包括了對於這個衛林有身心障礙證明的他有申請植物再設計或者等等其他的需求的服務那這個單位要去做可以去做相關的評估需求那我們是建議這個第一個是一樣就是"},{"start":28295.194,"end":28324.101,"text":"如果他是沒有領有身心障礙證明現在在植物再設計的部分其實勞動部已經有在提供相關的即使是不一定是有身心障礙證明但是有提供相關的服務那第二個是他還是比較聚焦在後端服務的部分我們是進行在鑑定的階段那是不是可以就先不把他拿進來以上報告來各位針對第七條來林耀勤委員"},{"start":28326.648,"end":28342.851,"text":"我這邊第七條我的建議是把第二項的家庭經濟狀況的家庭刪掉和家庭生活需求的家庭刪掉為什麼因為第二項的身心障礙者的社會福利身份是"},{"start":28343.251,"end":28364.481,"text":"只比較是個人專屬性的那本法你的服務跟保護的目的在於支持身心障礙者為日常的生活所以需求評估應該以個人需求為考量不應該去考慮那個家庭經濟家庭生活需求為必要所以會比較符合本法立法的目的所以我們認為要把這兩個字刪掉 以上"},{"start":28367.807,"end":28388.505,"text":"來請陳昭志委員謝謝主席我們第七條提出來主要原因是第二次國家報告的結論性的意見當中國際審查委員還是有提醒我們目前的這個身心障礙鑑定跟需求的評估制度還是偏向醫療化比較著重在功能損傷本身但對實際生活的需求掌握相對是不夠的"},{"start":28389.526,"end":28407.438,"text":"那事實上我們都知道說兩個障礙類型會程度相同因為真的因為他們不同的因為經濟條件家庭支持生活環境的不同需要的協助可能也很不一樣所以我們是希望在評估的時候不要只看醫療報告也多能了解那個當事人生活處境以及他所需要的支持系統"},{"start":28408.819,"end":28424.489,"text":"這條文本身條文本身是持開放但是重點是這個方向要不要往方向走未來的制度設計上是不是可以慢慢以個人需求為核心的評估方式來進行那這個部分我們是不是請次長也能夠針對這一塊再做個回應謝謝"},{"start":28429.382,"end":28445.595,"text":"還有其他委員嗎沒有 那我們請次長回應還是署長來 請跟各位委員報告在這個需求評估的階段的時候委員有建議是不是把家庭刪掉"},{"start":28446.335,"end":28460.772,"text":"那考慮到目前現在各項的福利服務的總體大概在制度通案性上面大概各類的福利服務在輸送的時候大概都經濟尤其在經濟情況的部分大概都是以家庭為單位來做思考"},{"start":28461.372,"end":28482.695,"text":"所以在第二項這個經濟的部分家庭經濟的這個部分我們建議家庭兩個字可以我們還是建議盡可能是保留但在後面接下來在家庭生活需求的部分如果是家庭生活需求的部分的話我們是覺得因為生活真的是每一個人自己的狀況每一個身心大概是自己的狀況"},{"start":28483.576,"end":28510.583,"text":"所以我們是建議我們是覺得或許是在生活需求前面的那個家庭兩個字可以刪除那不過這邊也看到吳立華委員的版本裡面有提到就是除了刪除家庭生活需求刪除家庭但是有增列家庭支持的部分那我們是覺得這個部分應該是可採所以如果說在可能範圍內我們就建議第二項的文字"},{"start":28512.723,"end":28535.275,"text":"是不是可以做這樣的處理就是前向需求評估因醫生性障礙者障礙類別程度家庭經濟狀況照顧服務需求生活需求社會參與家庭支持需求等等因素為之"},{"start":28540.687,"end":28556.991,"text":"那這個大概建議的這個文字那我們現在也有投影在那個螢幕上面那請各位委員來做一個參考以上來各位委員請看一下文字的修正來請次長"},{"start":28562.672,"end":28592.064,"text":"我再簡單回應一下剛剛那個陳昭志陳委員我完全同意完全同意這個方向那我也跟委員報告就是陳副剛剛主席剛剛所說的ICF我們的整個CRPD最重要的精神就是陽氣醫療模式然後呢就是把社會還有環境因素把它納入那我跟委員報告我們現在目前ICF陳副我剛剛說2024年7月我們開始第一碼就已經開始把它納入第一點第二點我們現在目前根據這ICF裡面所說的他的相關的need assessment"},{"start":28592.604,"end":28601.633,"text":"需求評估的部分就是我們會就是陳如我們剛剛在上面所說的我們會調查這一個身障礙者他的這一個家庭經濟狀況"},{"start":28603.632,"end":28623.016,"text":"服務照顧需求生活需求社會參與還有家庭知識就是說他是一個我們用這種全人的概念去做需求評估當然我同意可能我們現在目前這邊會做的可能還不足那我們會遵照委員的一個指示方向我們繼續再往這邊就是把social dimension的部分繼續再把它強化以上報告謝謝OK來請委員再請歡迎委員我覺得這邊"},{"start":28631.816,"end":28654.068,"text":"當初我們會要拿掉那個家庭經濟情況這個事實上是比較考慮的是有時候整個你要去橫估他的負擔比事實上可能整個家庭裡邊我不知道你怎麼去考慮如果要拿掉的話我"},{"start":28655.461,"end":28670.335,"text":"我比較 否則你就要覺得是不是家庭及個人經濟情況因為如果成年人在這個家庭裡邊到底真的是這樣這個家庭到底要怎麼去支應他這是我第一個第二個是"},{"start":28671.056,"end":28693.074,"text":"增加了家庭支持需求是什麼意思一個事實上家庭要去評估的是他家庭支持能量如何和一個是我需要家庭支持我覺得這兩個又是不太一樣的如果你說增加家庭支持他去評估他家庭給他支持的狀況是什麼和一個是我從我的需求面來講家庭"},{"start":28693.875,"end":28710.065,"text":"家庭支持需求我覺得這四個字跟六個字是有一點落差的所以各位也請社安組補充做說明 以上再請歡迎委員"},{"start":28715.322,"end":28739.842,"text":"我的部分主要是因為當時我們在那個社會福利基本法的第7條的時候規定福利服務應以人為本以家庭為中心以社區為基礎我記得這當時還討論了很久要不要以人為本然後要不要刪除以家庭那當時大家覺得還是以人為本但是家庭的支持還是蠻重要的"},{"start":28740.342,"end":28759.66,"text":"所以我的版本這邊是把原本的家庭生活需求改為家庭支持需求那當然這個有很多個空間可以來討論可是我是覺得在這個階段拿掉家庭似乎也是那個脈絡不夠完整"},{"start":28760.12,"end":28782.756,"text":"那用那個支持的角度來看是不是也能夠讓就是藏權者他能夠得到的權益跟福利是比較完整的也考慮比較周全我是這樣就是說因為這是評估嘛那如果他沒有家庭支持他事實上可能就需要更多的協助我是這樣理解好謝謝好"},{"start":28789.46,"end":28811.158,"text":"來 請王志旭委員主席好 包羅剛剛林委員跟方委員的想法家庭目前我們如何去定義家庭有沒有比較明確的比如說一等親一邊要住在一起或者是他是在同一個戶口之下"},{"start":28812.559,"end":28825.65,"text":"我是針對這個精神來看的話我們怎麼去在這個處理的過程裡面去知道說這個家庭目前的支持程度是給予哪一些的成員以上"},{"start":28831.788,"end":28860.526,"text":"請說明 來 謝謝這個針對各位委員就有關家庭支持的部分我們覺得文字是可以納進來我們大概針對這個文字我們的想法是這個所謂的家庭支持需求就是這位身心障礙者他所生活的家庭那麼從外部需要給他什麼樣的支持我們大概比較沒有我們大概在做這個需求評估的時候我們比較沒有去去舉動說除了"},{"start":28861.626,"end":28880.775,"text":"倒不是说是家里面的人可以给这个身心障碍者什么样的照顾支持比较不是从这一块就是说对于因为从整个在他会包括到从外部对于整个家庭里面是不是也有一些可以去支持这整个家庭的部分"},{"start":28881.535,"end":28897.588,"text":"身心障碍者整个家庭的部分我们大概会从这边除了因为对照前面我们把那个生活需求的部分从家庭生活需求把它列把家庭删掉的话那这一块大概就会比较聚焦在对于身心障碍者本人的部分"},{"start":28898.248,"end":28923.032,"text":"那對於這個身心障礙者所生活的家庭是不是也需要有一些相關的支持那我們就增加了這樣一個家庭支持需求的文字那這個是我們大概當初在做文字整理的時候一個初步的想法那也提供給委員 以上好 各位有沒有其他意見再講一下"},{"start":28926.844,"end":28944.802,"text":"對 他先舉手 你先拿麥克風你看人家怎樣處理謝謝主席這麼公道好 那個 我再補充一下我還有一個小的修正剛剛我自己漏掉了就是原本的現行條文是家庭經濟嘛那我拿掉了家庭這兩個字"},{"start":28945.703,"end":28960.676,"text":"因為我覺得經濟好像不能期待說一定要去評估整個家庭的部分那請大家能夠考慮一下我想這個部分就涉及到我們怎麼看這個評估然後怎麼樣能夠最精準的協助到以上謝謝"},{"start":28964.301,"end":28992.088,"text":"我剛剛本來就是在講這個剛好范宇又在講因為剛剛你們回應我的是說就是覺得不需要所以把整個經濟狀況只納入到經濟狀況這幾個字眼把家庭刪掉那我是要加你們現在確定不刪了嗎我們剛剛建議的文字在上面我們是生活需求部分前面那個家庭可以刪經濟前面的家庭我們會建議保留我們建議是這樣"},{"start":28996.51,"end":28997.07,"text":"經濟情況你如果考慮家庭經濟情況的時候往往有時候你去橫估家庭狀況"},{"start":29023.82,"end":29044.814,"text":"不見得他成年人到底家庭一定會協力嗎像這樣狀況就是現在會變成他們的一個很大的處境所以我剛才為什麼會講是說第一個要刪掉另外一個如果不要刪掉的話家庭然後呢要還要考慮到他個人的經濟狀況不是你考慮家庭你就不會提供給他"},{"start":29045.735,"end":29068.424,"text":"可是他的家庭對他沒一定不要去想像每一個如果我們18歲的確他是他的義務跟責任可是如果是成年的時候真的事實上是這個家庭義務責任如果家裡手足或者是他的父母對他置之不理的時候那這個如果你的評估會是什麼可是你把家庭拿掉的時候就會有這種狀況"},{"start":29072.13,"end":29097.108,"text":"我知道委員現在目前那concern有兩個重點第一個現在就是分析單位問題到底家庭經濟單位裡面你要算個人還是要算household就家戶這是第一個重點另外第二個重點我現在先澄清一下我們現在目前生活需求那是以他個人為中心的是individual但是我們在這邊特別強調是要家他是畢竟是生活在一個家庭裡面所以我們政府"},{"start":29098.309,"end":29112.807,"text":"有必要去supporting他的family透過他的family再支持他所以我要先把這兩個層次先把它分清楚至於就是說前面所說的那個就是說分析單位到底是individual還是household這個我知道國內外大家都辯論得非常非常多"},{"start":29114.609,"end":29134.307,"text":"當然對於身障礙者比較有利當然是算individual當然這個是怎麼樣我覺得我應該態度上是開放簡單來講還有另外一個也回應剛剛王正希委員裡面講什麼叫家庭家庭社會學裡面的定義同居共死者為之為家庭這是普遍的定義我就簡單先同居共死者"},{"start":29135.063,"end":29159.246,"text":"是 你簡單回應的話那到底支不支持我剛剛提的就是我要把家庭兩個字拿掉這點我保持開放好不好因為我覺得經濟情況你可以去評估它整體經濟你特別強調家庭的時候好像把這個責任都要放在家庭裡邊我覺得這也不是社會保障法 社會救助法也一樣的問題啦但是我必須要說就是說我們現在目前"},{"start":29160.607,"end":29176.602,"text":"今天全部都這樣啦我們現在目前我現在目前還是強調家庭責任至於是怎麼樣這個我是保持個人保持開放態度以上謝謝所以次長是用個人民意回答還是這個身份所以我現在就針對這兩個字"},{"start":29181.177,"end":29202.65,"text":"我們還是會跟各位委員建議那經濟情況的部分我們會建議維持是家庭那因為這個它有一個以現階段的狀況上其實我們理解很多這個身心障礙者他會覺得是不是用個人狀況也許在認定上對他會比較有利"},{"start":29203.61,"end":29222.003,"text":"那但是他但是在行政面以現行的狀況來講目前所有的不管是社會救助或者其他各種的相關的目前絕大多數相關的津貼身障老服或者是真的相關津貼大家認定上都是以還是以加護為主"},{"start":29222.663,"end":29249.665,"text":"所以以目前的情形來講它會有一個相對一個比較便利的地方不見得是有利但比較便利的地方就是它如果在現有的機制身分上已經被認定的時候它就不需要額外在這個需求評估的階段重新再去評估單獨去評估一次它的經濟狀況這個在行政上便利的地方是它會有一個小小的優點那第二個就是"},{"start":29251.667,"end":29272.629,"text":"以現在實務上對於身心障礙者的照顧來說一樣有很多有些人是他自己也許要靠自己但是也一樣有很多的身心障礙者他是得到自己的家庭的支持所以在考慮到這樣的情形之後在這樣的情況之下其實在社會救助法裡面對於"},{"start":29273.851,"end":29288.692,"text":"這樣的一個這個它如果是有一些特殊的狀況它的家庭裡面的資源沒有辦法算進來的時候那麼在這個我如果沒錯應該是社會救助法第五條第三項第九款"},{"start":29289.733,"end":29309.526,"text":"我們一般習慣上把它叫做539條款有這樣的一個規定對於有一個特殊的狀況的時候它有一個特殊的認定機制所以如果在這邊來看我們會優先建議是不是在這裡經濟狀況的部分能夠把家庭能夠維持下來以上報告"},{"start":29311.636,"end":29319.062,"text":"好你已經我還是要再講我只是要提醒我沒有讓你造成什麼困擾第五次花園請說"},{"start":29323.177,"end":29345.433,"text":"就加一個因為我就可以寬列如果你認為要那樣的話那至少是不是家庭及個人經濟情況一併去考慮我覺得身障本來就我覺得在目前台灣社會還是處在比較弱勢處境不要把認為家庭一定會去照應他們即便是同住一個家庭"},{"start":29346.414,"end":29368.898,"text":"所以當然我們都知道說他身為他家人應該負擔起這個責任在可是如果我們站在他是身上的個人的角度上來看不是在他有需求的時候政府不是還是要去介入嗎所以如果那樣的話我覺得是不是可以再加就是加三個字及個人"},{"start":29373.081,"end":29393.369,"text":"來 請行政單位思考 如果沒有辦法馬上討論沒關係 我們就先保留了好不好 就差那三個字還是要做慎重的決定以致失差千里小心一點好 那我們第7條就先保留那繼續審查院版所提第10條委員煥雲許富奎"},{"start":29396.605,"end":29414.071,"text":"羅廷偉 羅美玲 劉建國還有台灣民眾黨的第10條還有第10條之一還有蔡玉瑜 何新淳 廖偉祥林竹英 陳清輝 林月琴 歡迎委員所提的第10條也一樣一併10條之一一併來討論 還有委員吳麗華"},{"start":29419.127,"end":29434.119,"text":"王玉民 盧憲一 萬美玲 李昆城 那修正動議的部分有修正動議第一案是盧憲一所提 還有第六案是林月琴委員所提 還有第十二案是委員劉建國所提 那我們併案一併來討論來請刑事單位先做說明"},{"start":29441.289,"end":29465.5,"text":"行政院版修正條文第十條那主要是針對主管機關在相關的事務的委員會或者組織等等的會議上面他的要求是要組成的情況那這一次我們做了一個相關的修正那比例上面會叫現行的條文有一定程度的提高"},{"start":29467.341,"end":29492.938,"text":"同時也參採了先前外界各界的意見對於身心障礙者代表的部分我們也納進了要包括兒童或少年組成的比例的部分我們只是在以往現行的規定的話對於尤其是身心障礙者的人數的部分我們這次修正了以後在第二項的第二款裡面"},{"start":29496.64,"end":29517.028,"text":"身心障礙者的代表以及身心障礙的人數是不可以去少於這個組織委員總數的二分之一那也要兼顧各障礙類別的均衡那這個部分我們大概就比例的部分我們去做了一個調高那各委員的版本"},{"start":29519.809,"end":29545.357,"text":"總體來說大概有的委員的版本是要求身心障礙者三分之一那也有的委員版本是身心障礙者要二分之一那或者是也有像范雲委員的版本有提到在這個開會的時候有一些必要的一些協助措施包括像會議的環境會議的資料的一些協助等等那在這邊總數的部分我們"},{"start":29547.978,"end":29566.215,"text":"第一個是已經比現行的條文有提高了相對比較多那也對於這個參與的人員的部分也有比較高的類別的人員的種類包括年齡層有更多元那族群別這個包括"},{"start":29568.337,"end":29587.55,"text":"以及人數占總體人數的比例的部分都有一定程度的提高那委員那這個部分的話我們是建議在比例的部分是不是可以參加行政院版的版本那而另外在這些委員的任期的部分那也有委員像范雲委員有提到"},{"start":29588.29,"end":29602.166,"text":"委員的任期的部分是不是要做一定程度的限制那這個部分的話我們是目前來這個在行政上操作的時候我們是可以來努力的來朝這邊來去做處理"},{"start":29603.007,"end":29627.439,"text":"那最後一個各委員的版本大概跟行政院版比較大的不一樣的地方就是這些身心障礙者代表產生的方式那行政院版的草案大概都是用目前沒有特別去寫大概是維持各個組織他以往的聆聘的方式那這個委員的版本有的是要是不是可以用公開選舉"},{"start":29628.82,"end":29650.767,"text":"或者是要用選舉或者是用其他的方式來做那在前一次我們召委所召開的公聽會裡面那我們也覺得這個怎麼樣去讓這一類身心障礙者代表的產生能夠更寬 能夠更多元所以我們重新思考了一下我們覺得這個"},{"start":29654.729,"end":29676.608,"text":"這個方向我們很願意努力的來操作那當時在公聽會上我們也提供了一個意見是說是不是可以用一個類似公開推薦廣開來公開來推薦的方式然後在後面來做處理所以我們在這邊也提供了一個除了行政院版的文字之外我們再提供一個修正的文字"},{"start":29677.448,"end":29704.865,"text":"現在投影在螢幕上就是我們建議是不是在第十條的第一項的部分那我們是用以公平開放之原則來聆聘身心障礙者至於是要用推薦或者是用選舉的這個部分這個具體的方式可以開放出來給包括中央相關的機關或者是地方政府"},{"start":29705.605,"end":29715.972,"text":"給它有一個運作的彈性但是我們把一個基本的原則我們把它框定下來我們會建議是不是可以多增加一些文字那以上請各位委員來參考好"},{"start":29718.678,"end":29739.383,"text":"來請王育民委員再請陳昭志委員謝謝這個第10條這個主管機關其實有納入這個委員的版本那我這邊之前我在質詢的時候就有特別提到就是兒少的身心障礙者跟成人他的需求是不一樣的所以我當時就希望是兒少可以進來那我現在看到你們的"},{"start":29740.183,"end":29763.721,"text":"修正的版本有但是你們用一個掛號包括兒童或少年我覺得這樣的呈現方式對於兒少的主體性來講有一點不尊重因為我原來的這個條文裡面是兒少身心障礙者它其實也是一個就是特別在把它獨立出來但你們現在的寫法你就是用一個跨乎就是把它跨乎起來"},{"start":29764.381,"end":29786.017,"text":"然後以下就再也沒有出現兒少身心障礙者的字眼我是覺得這樣比較不妥我是建議回到我的版本是不是直接可以把兒少身心障礙者就直接寫出來就是兒少身心障礙者跟身心障礙團體代表這個應該是區隔開來的這個是我的建議"},{"start":29786.778,"end":29815.488,"text":"那我覺得有兒少為主體的這些身障的代表我覺得是一個進步的象徵 以上謝謝再請陳教授委員謝謝主席這條障礙者團體他們非常在意我猜想因為趙委你也非常清楚他們最重要的想法是認為在主張在法條當中要明確保障就具有身心障礙者身份的本人"},{"start":29817.029,"end":29835.81,"text":"參與的比例不是也不是團體當中其他的家屬代表家長等等或其他人因為整個身障團體當中很多團體裡面不全是身心障礙者本人這個是身心障礙者他們非常期待的部分那也希望這個戰略能夠達二分之一以上我看到這邊文章是寫"},{"start":29837.551,"end":29860.598,"text":"這邊的原文是寫不小二分之一那大概就是差一個就是二分之一以上或二分之一那尤其是還是原住民代表我還想是必須替他們講話就這個包括原住民代表就是說這種交織性也是一個很需要被考慮就原住民代表本身他也是身心障礙者這個情況這個也應該有保障一個名額所以我的重點我想再談一次就是說"},{"start":29861.298,"end":29872.53,"text":"具有身心障礙者身份的本人參與的比例是他們非常重視的部分不是誰去代表他就是他本人他們本人來代表以上好謝謝陳哲偉再請李耀勤委員"},{"start":29877.116,"end":29903.717,"text":"好 我這邊大概就是還是如果你們在執法當中會去提去解決萬年委員的問題那我們非常樂見那就請支持我的附帶決議那至於那個我認為提高身障代表跟身障者比例來到那按二分之一以外另外如果要保障身障者的比例因為只有他們自己切身比較能夠知道他們的狀況"},{"start":29905.678,"end":29921.952,"text":"就像我們現在兒少團體會去參與兒少委會事實上也邀請了兒少本身來參與所以我們會覺得說如果所以我希望說身障者必須要有二分之一才會符合身障身權公約所認定的身障團體的定義"},{"start":29922.953,"end":29946.538,"text":"所以我們希望說本來你的團體就佔了整個就是我的條文是寫前向身心障礙者代表學者專家民間團體的機構團體代表不得少於總是二分之一那又從這邊的二分之一裡邊要有身障者的事實上要佔二分之一也不是整體全部都二分之一所以是不是應該去考慮而且應該去兼顧各"},{"start":29947.818,"end":29976.989,"text":"障礙類別的均衡這也是那天公聽會要提出來可是當初他們希望本來還是要用公開來選舉可是我認為不需要那現在這個問題也解決了以後你們大概在執法裡面會去考慮到那個我剛剛提的萬年委員那只剩下這一個比較大問題是在於到底同不同意具有身心障礙者自己本身具有身心障礙身分的應該要不得少於二分之一以上"},{"start":29978.717,"end":30000.752,"text":"好 謝謝那現在來 署長要再先回應是不是還是怎樣對 請回應好 跟各位委員說明那這次行政院版修正第10條其實就是希望擴大身心障礙者能夠參與的比例所以可以如果對照現行條文其實它是有明顯的提高"},{"start":30001.613,"end":30021.041,"text":"那這個大概在表述的方式上面容我再稍微做一點說明就是因為現在在行政院版的第十條裡面可以去參加這類會議的參與者的類別包括了身心障礙者代表身心障礙領域的學者專家民間團體 機構團體代表跟目的事業主管機關的代表"},{"start":30028.384,"end":30044.138,"text":"我們之所以會在第二項的第二款裡面我們製作這樣的處理的時候我們的想法就是其中這個第一項裡面提到身心障礙者代表身心障礙者代表是不是一定是身心障礙者"},{"start":30045.559,"end":30072.7,"text":"其實以現在運作的狀況可能有一小部可能有少數他不一定是具有身心障礙身分例如說他可能是家屬他可能是這個等等這一類的情況但是這一類既然他是以身心障礙者代表身分被遴選進來的時候那麼他的角色應該就是要就是要來協助身心障礙者這樣的一個角度來處理 來看待"},{"start":30073.36,"end":30091.916,"text":"所以我們在第二項的第二款裡面我們是把身心障礙者的代表跟其他各類的這一類參與者的總數加起來裡面如果有身心障礙者加起來合計他是一定要超過所有委員總數的二分之一"},{"start":30092.797,"end":30121.376,"text":"我們大概的算法我們大概建議的方式是這樣那這個部分這個是我們大概是建議的一個方式那這邊可能會面臨那這個我們把我們大概原來想法先跟委員這邊來做一個報告那第二個是剛才林瑞卿委員這邊有提到有一個這個所謂萬年委員的部分那委員也有一個附帶決議的提案那我們這個基本上大方向"},{"start":30121.716,"end":30139.76,"text":"我們是支持的那文字上面我們可能會有一些比較小的調整這個是不是要用是不是要把公開遴選或者輪替機制會用一個比較這個更有相對來說這個選遴選方式彈性的部分有一個稍微彈性一點的表述方法"},{"start":30140.44,"end":30165.778,"text":"我們會建議這個部分是不是用擴大推薦這樣的一個方式來做一個處理另外就是年齡跟地區的代表性的話其實我們是覺得這邊大概在操作上面因為現在在我們的條文裡面已經會把兒少納進來這個部分的話我們而且有考慮到地方政府的操作的部分"},{"start":30166.958,"end":30178.183,"text":"這個委員的附帶決議的部分我們建議年齡跟地區如果可以的話是不是可以不列進來那其他部分我們基本上這個附帶決議我們是支持的那做以上的報告"},{"start":30181.499,"end":30200.267,"text":"那你們那個我剛講那個條文裡面你那個兒童或少年用一個跨乎你為什麼不要直接名列兒少身心障礙者我們可以配合好不好就是身心障礙者頓耗兒少身心障礙者不要用個跨乎這樣有點太比例兒少好不好好來請王正旭委員"},{"start":30211.339,"end":30240.058,"text":"主席 主席要請教說 在第一項裡面並沒有包括身心障礙者這幾個本身因為你是用代表嘛 然後又在第二項的第二款裡面才會把代表跟身心障礙者合併不少於二分之一 那這個有沒有文字上認知上的一種落差 意思就是說你代表嘛 你代表不一定就是本人啊 可是你又在第二項的第二款又把那個"},{"start":30241.018,"end":30260.686,"text":"身心障礙者又把它又獨立列出來我對我來說覺得怪怪的我不知道大家覺得怎麼樣對啦 他現在有在修了還是 欸 又挑掉了沒關係 讓他修正之後給大家再做參考他剛剛就身心障礙者 喔 又挑掉了"},{"start":30286.702,"end":30297.911,"text":"如果配合兒少法的文字的話是不是就用兒童及少年變成一個類似專有文用一個專有名詞的方式對啊原本就這樣是誰叫你們寫貨的"},{"start":30299.478,"end":30326.503,"text":"對不起 我們沒有寫好對啊 你們就是不曉得在後什麼這樣的話 這個在第二項第二項第二項要配合條件剛剛我強調的就是說要身心障礙者本人但是這裡一看你現在一看到身心障礙者代表那後面有個是身心障礙者那你們就是證實這兩群是不同人"},{"start":30327.603,"end":30343.377,"text":"那現在他們強調就是說身心障礙者其實沒有人可以替包括親愛的家人也不見得可以替他本人來發言他本身的需求他需要的東西所以是身心障礙者期待的是他們自己真的是身心障礙者"},{"start":30344.458,"end":30368.958,"text":"我不能否定說這些組成這個團體或聯盟他們是有些願意幫忙他們但是未必能夠真正替他們發言還是讓當事者來說話所以這個樣子更加證明這兩個是不同群人啊不就結結實實加起來又加起來才二分之不少於二分之一那等於一個人也算啊這樣不行這樣跟這個身心障礙者期待差太遠了署長差太遠了"},{"start":30372.308,"end":30394.514,"text":"來 請回應公務員報告一下這個這個遴選的時候不管遴選是用推薦或者等等方式產生的時候這個所謂的身心障礙者代表出來的時候他一定就是他要能夠去代表身心障礙者那身心障礙因為他的這個障礙的狀況是相對比較多元他有很多的類別那"},{"start":30395.094,"end":30417.555,"text":"尤其是這個如果完全只考慮身心障礙者的話我們會擔心這個操作是另外一回事但是這邊在這個在遴選的過程中心智障礙類的部分他很可能很容易會被忽略掉肢體或者是其他的部分因為心智障礙類的時候他很難被他很難自己出來"},{"start":30418.875,"end":30442.783,"text":"所以這個部分的話我們會建議是這個尤其是在考慮到心智障礙的狀況的時候那我們為什麼會把他這個條文寫到這麼複雜其實確實是有考慮到這個身心障礙者他如果是用身心障礙者代表這個身份進到這個組織裡面來的時候他當然他的責任就是要維護身心障礙者的權益啦"},{"start":30443.403,"end":30465.963,"text":"所以我們是覺得這個部分的時候是不是可以用這個方式來做一個思考以上署長你應該見過身心障礙障礙者團體吧就是本人你應該見過他們他應該也跟您表達我剛剛談的這樣的一個說法嘛你所謂的代表那是責任上理想上理論上他們是應該如此"},{"start":30467.024,"end":30485.61,"text":"但是誰又能代表你當然就誰又能代表我陳昭芝講話呢就是如果我的心意所以你剛剛講的那個所謂的代表那經過選舉啊等等那這個明明就是當事人三線障礙者他們自己最期待的其中的重要的一項條文他們希望能夠為自己直接自己發聲討論"},{"start":30487.33,"end":30515.522,"text":"那你那個代表那代表你我不是說代表不公平但是這個有誰代表也可以顧此私彼啊你說障礙者有各種類型那這個代表者可能他本身就不是障礙者那您就期待他就是每一個人都能夠那麼周全嘛所以其實比較公平的方式還是讓真的那因為這個是有任期嘛或是說大家都有機會進來嘛啊他們彼此選舉就是說身心障礙彼此選選代表出來他們自己就是自己就是情況下我想這個"},{"start":30516.542,"end":30540.91,"text":"能夠真正表達他們的這個心意 他們的需求會是更精準的啦 署長你也 我相信你既然說過你也見過他們嘛 他也跟你表達這件事 這個條文他們非常在意非常在意 那現在的其實很多的委員會 現在各個各部法案的裡面很重要的委員會都常常強調 所謂的當事人是要但相當的比率"},{"start":30542.09,"end":30554.283,"text":"我當然不是你負責 不過也是衛福部要負責的護病比等等 我們也盡量讓護理師能夠在裡面佔據一定的比率一概念架構是一致的組長請你再思考看看好 謝謝 再請林一月請回言"},{"start":30558.724,"end":30581.605,"text":"我覺得先要釐清一個狀況這應該講身心障礙者代表應該是遴選出來他們本身就是身心障礙者吧我先釐清這個吧否則的話好像我覺得兩邊講不一樣因為我們看這個因為已經不是團體代表了嘛那他就是應該事實上是一個身心障礙者可是不可能如果講我們現在不要講代表的話"},{"start":30582.625,"end":30607.819,"text":"那這個人是包山包海一堆人都要進來這個代表是說我今天是被選出來的我本身就是身心障礙者我是被選出來來代表這個身心障礙者應該是這樣吧因為台北市過去領選就是這樣我如果本身是身心障礙者我去訪問我自己然後呢最後呢一堆人來投票投票我然後我去擔任身心障礙者委員會的委員吧"},{"start":30608.539,"end":30623.19,"text":"沒有錯先釐清這個否則的話我剛剛聽好像講起來如果以陳昭之委員講說好像不是他本身不是身心障礙者應該是吧就是只是領選出來的那是透過大家投票機制之後決定這件事情吧跟兩位委員兩個身份"},{"start":30632.112,"end":30651.631,"text":"跟委員報告我們當初在列身心障礙者代表這個文字的時候我們確實是心裡面有假設有可能選出來的代表不一定是身心障礙者那這樣的情況可能發生在哪裡第一個它可能是屬於心智障礙類的"},{"start":30654.112,"end":30677.737,"text":"他可能家長 不是團體 個別家長那他可能照顧了一個身心障礙者照顧20年 30年他願意出來幫這一類的族群幫這一類的心智障礙者發聲的時候我們覺得在以這一類的狀況來講我們好像也不太能夠去否認他對於身心障礙或者這一類族群的"},{"start":30678.357,"end":30693.229,"text":"需求的表達所以我們在寫這個文字的時候我們確實我們在假設是他有可能會有非身心障礙者會成為身心障礙者代表這個用這個身份進來那但是"},{"start":30694.781,"end":30713.961,"text":"如果是這樣子進來的時候既然他是用身心障礙代表這樣進來的時候那麼我們當然會把他認定成他就是幫身心障礙者或者是以身心障礙者的需求為角度出發來去表達這些人的需求或者表達他們的一些想法"},{"start":30714.501,"end":30740.515,"text":"所以在算比例的時候我們會把它算到二分之一裡面這個是大概我們當初是這樣子去思考那因為這一類有可能會出現的是他有可能是最沒有辦法發出發生或最沒有辦法移動的這一類身心障礙者的時候那麼這一類人的時候他通常不太可能出來開會也不太可能出來表達或者公開說我要被選舉"},{"start":30741.696,"end":30756.076,"text":"那他有可能就是他的照顾者或者是等等那在这种情况之下我们觉得如果是这一类的这样状况我们觉得他用身心障碍者代表身份出来我们是觉得某种角度好像是可以被理解"},{"start":30757.237,"end":30777.192,"text":"蘇長你一直一直在講心智障礙者但事實上我們如果說當事本身是心智 這身心障礙者還有好多個位置可以給其他的代表人我們現在強調的是他自己就是身上的他能夠讓他自己出來發言那你說他沒有能力為自己發言那當然是還有名額啊還有名額啊來請王育民委員"},{"start":30787.478,"end":30809.617,"text":"剛剛其實署長講的你是身心障礙者代表你是完全排除了機構跟團體的代表他就是可能是家長家屬因為他本身沒有行動能力然後幫他來參與的這一類型對不對所以你們也把他廣泛的認定為他就是幫他的孩子或者是他家屬在講話所以他也是屬於障礙者"},{"start":30812.161,"end":30840.151,"text":"你們是這樣子認定的嗎那剛剛趙志偉是說這一類型是不是把它放到二分之一以外就是二分之一裡面就是兒少的跟自己本身可以為自己權益講話的身心障礙者然後你們這樣有沒有什麼困難就是說其他的二分之一可能包含這種是家長幫他發言的還有團體的還有機關的專家學者如果這樣你們有什麼困難嗎"},{"start":30840.956,"end":30863.522,"text":"如果沒有的話其實那就變得很單純你的這一個就整個都是自己本身就是身心障礙者的代表達到二分之一我想身障團體他們今天在訴求就是說他覺得本人的聲音是很重要的所以他希望這二分之一通通都是本人自己可以去發聲的"},{"start":30864.722,"end":30883.877,"text":"那我不曉得你們原來在你的想法裡面就是說這種幫幫這個身障的你講的也有道理就是說在幫他自己的小孩或什麼因為他本身沒有辦法語言表達他來幫他發聲這個可以但是原本你們自己的規劃是佔多少名額呢如果那個名額比例也不高"},{"start":30884.864,"end":30904.253,"text":"我覺得如果大家達到各自要的目的的話因為障礙者他們的確他們希望自己的聲音可以自己為自己發聲的這個比例再更高我覺得也很好就是就讓自己發聲的占到二分之一那其他家長要幫他發聲就算到另外二分之一以外看可不可以這樣"},{"start":30910.26,"end":30932.666,"text":"來 請回應也跟各位報告這個我們大概在實務上我們也有在研擬這個條文的時候我們也去調查了一下各縣市目前這一類組織的組成的狀況那我們目前所知道的我們目前調查出來的情形"},{"start":30933.486,"end":30950.04,"text":"差不多是連中央代縣市大概平均身心障礙者佔的委員總數的比例差不多是在三成到三成三成多大概只有很少數的縣市超過四成"},{"start":30951.482,"end":30967.378,"text":"大概只有很少數的先生有超過四成那所以這個如果用這樣子下去處理的時候那這個第一個是身心障礙比例變高這個感覺上是我們可以讓更多的身心障礙的朋友能夠有發生的機會"},{"start":30968.599,"end":30983.772,"text":"但是其實某個角度當這個發生的機會出來的時候其實還有一件事同樣需要處理的是這個發生的內容是能夠在這樣的一個組織或者會議上面能夠被討論和處理"},{"start":30986.558,"end":31014.506,"text":"那就是他在會議上能夠有一個機會跟相關的不管是團體代表甚至是機關的代表能夠去做互動所以他是基本上這個會議是能夠做一個雙向能夠去經過討論去解決所以如果這個單純是把這個身心障礙者完全拉到二分之一的時候那這個有可能最後被壓縮的大概就是不屬於身心障礙者的部分"},{"start":31015.687,"end":31037.307,"text":"我們可能需要評估一下到時候在這樣的一個組織裡面它的對話功能會不會因此會被很難做比較充分的對話這個是我們比較我們覺得比較可能會是不是需要再做一點思考的地方以上建議 謝謝"},{"start":31039.099,"end":31064.953,"text":"我這邊補充一個資料 大家看一下我剛剛也聽署長在講還有懲罰者委員擔心的部分應該因為我們在審查過程裡面都還是會參考一些一些依據這邊是聯絡國身心障礙者權利的公約第四條第三項的規定以及身心障礙者權利委員會第七號一般性的建立身心障礙者權利推動小組織委員應有身心障礙者代表至少歐文之一"},{"start":31067.999,"end":31092.66,"text":"那我當然也期待就是身心障礙者零有身心障礙者所測的人來超過二分之一那如果說這個部分我們偷偷各位的意見還有願板還有各位的版本身心障礙者代表加身心障礙者本人就是零有身心障礙者所測的零零容忠重加起來有超過二分之一其實這也是一個目標啦"},{"start":31094.898,"end":31123.13,"text":"因為身心障礙者代表基本上一定是代表身心障礙者這個毋庸置疑啦那獨秀可以發言嗎可以當然可以剛剛你看署長已經先承認所有團體你去查都不到大概頂多三成的裡面是真正是本人這是第一個那時代不同今天我們再出這個身心障礙者很明確的跟我們表達我想我想您接待的身心障礙團體障礙者團體您也知道有很多人能夠表達他也許只是某些功能我看現在已經有人告訴我了"},{"start":31123.55,"end":31146.508,"text":"你不要可能請署長不要再舉例心智障礙他們說心智障礙可能比很多人都聰明我現在已經接到這個當成所以我們可能不要再用這個做比喻了好那那但是不一樣這個代表我不知道CRPD當然這個所謂的代表這個代表我當然已經聽到這種佔比佔率這麼低也許是熱心我從來沒有說愛也不一定是對的我們愛一個也不見得是愛的方法是對的"},{"start":31147.108,"end":31169.122,"text":"他們現在就是期待說你關心我你幫我組的團體都是善意的這個沒有人否認這件事情但是他們想要自己表達他們想要自己表達他們的需求他們想要表達他們自己的聲音這個完全沒有問題啊這個是一個不管是CRP的精神或是文明國家的做法你為什麼不試試看呢為什麼不做做看呢"},{"start":31170.543,"end":31182.389,"text":"你看代表你看現在你知道團體裡面七成都不是啊就是七成都不是本人啊那今天我們要立這個法也就是說一定有很多不足的地方嘛他們才會期待我們這樣做那就來"},{"start":31184.02,"end":31209.494,"text":"試著做做看我剛剛也跟你舉例一個護病比也是貴婦的這個問題那護病比的部分也是我們沒有辦法去做那個比率但是至少讓他們有一半的比率讓他們能夠在那裡發生因為各種狀況護理師也是各種狀況在什麼樣的病房什麼樣的狀況什麼樣的班別我們不能替他做決定所以這個不能試試看嗎"},{"start":31210.376,"end":31228.986,"text":"不能這樣做嗎就是本人我們真的不要忽略在各種身體狀況結構或是功能上有跟我們一般所謂的不一樣的人他們能夠發言的一個能力而且我們剛剛已經提到了我們甚至他來開會我們都要協助啊我們要協助他發言表達"},{"start":31231.748,"end":31253.647,"text":"這才是一個非常最感人最溫馨的一個做法我們要協助表達不是說你沒有能力表達所以我讓一個別人來替你表達我覺得今天整個精神是在這個地方他們要自己發聲他們要為他們自己的權益他們的主張來發聲所以我請署長你們再好好想想看再好好思考這樣的一個主軸思考主軸 謝謝"},{"start":31256.983,"end":31281.05,"text":"我再跟署長做一個確認你剛剛回應委員會是說有針對幾個縣市就是身心障礙者這個委員會的組成有身心障礙者領有這個身心障礙者手冊的有三成多有四成多嘛對不對大概只有四個縣市達到四成是身心障礙者本人還是身心障礙者假身心障礙者代表身心障礙者本人OK好謝謝"},{"start":31283.733,"end":31306.81,"text":"也跟各位委員也先致歉剛才如果是舉例上面引用不當的地方我先鄭重的致歉但是必須要說明還是要跟各位委員報告一下的就是在這個制度設計的時候其實總的方向我們真的是希望往前走所以希望能夠去把它拉高"},{"start":31307.61,"end":31326.381,"text":"但是我們真的是有也是希望說未來在這樣的一個會上面的時候它是除了能夠有對於身心障礙者自己關心的問題能夠直接發生之外我們也希望在那個會上面它是能夠一定程度的能夠跟"},{"start":31328.641,"end":31348.628,"text":"這個在會上能夠做一個意見的交換討論去找到一個能夠解決問題的機會那這樣的一個方式所以這個在比例上面所以我們當初在這邊確實是有一些折衷的地方那這樣一個折衷的方式那我們也是盡量思考"},{"start":31349.028,"end":31371.694,"text":"我們可不可以試試看你用文字看我尊重你的文字就是說你可不可以先試著做一次看看我們先不要認為他們表達能力或是什麼沒有辦法完整的表達或是等等我們試著做一次看看就是試著讓身心上的本人參與這樣的會議然後讓我們看我們來看看我們也可以見到我們也看看怎麼做"},{"start":31372.874,"end":31394.032,"text":"對 你用示範的方式 也讓他們試著這樣因為你永遠如果阻絕他們現在的期待的話我們永遠不知道真相是什麼也許出乎你意料之外 他們能夠真的能夠把自己的主張權益他們表達得非常清楚而且覺得是真的能幫助到他們每一部法都是真的要幫助對象嘛幫助這個該法要授意的對象啊"},{"start":31395.421,"end":31410.554,"text":"就是不能夠而且也有任期嘛你要做評估要做試行什麼我覺得是不是你可以考慮把文字就我們先用這個方式他們期待方式先做那我們可以考慮你用文字其他看看怎麼來看觀察這個進行的狀況署長可以嗎"},{"start":31414.039,"end":31439.627,"text":"好啦 是有道理的啦如果你的地方政府已經把性侵障礙者的這個具備障身份的已經在委員會組成的到4成多那是其實要過半也不是一件很困難的事情好我還是要處理一下開會時間因為我們現在處理到第10條那我們後面還有100"},{"start":31445.138,"end":31449.982,"text":"163條次 今天有點障礙所以要跟各位提醒一下"},{"start":31456.373,"end":31479.561,"text":"這第10條是第一款第二款的總數加起來怪怪的也請你做一些調整所以第10條我們先保留好不好好那我們處理開會時間那各位委員如果基本上大家越遠往之前我們就必須要再延長開會時間也因為我們的時間也剩下所剩5集每個人的時間都已經快到了這樣"},{"start":31487.605,"end":31491.114,"text":"沒有啦 你們說你動不動 你們就說你動不動 你們就說醫生動不動 我覺得你這也很奇怪"},{"start":31500.62,"end":31524.867,"text":"主席抱歉我簡單補充兩句話就是說既然這個這一條先保留啦但是我覺得說還是要強調就是身心障礙者他的這個本人的參與其實是相對重要啦就是說不是說讓其他人來決定其實我們甚至連身心障礙它有很多的面向那我們都沒有特別要求說你一定什麼比例的身心障礙要把它放入所以說"},{"start":31527.408,"end":31552.914,"text":"這個參與其實我覺得是很有意義的這也是為什麼說特別我要趕過來就是說第10條這邊我一定要發言一下也希望說保留帶回去但是我們行政部門這邊還是要去研究一下說這個文字怎麼樣修正可以符合我們各個朝野的委員大家共同期待就是說身心障礙者他能夠有參與的一個精神好不好謝謝好 謝謝各位委員"},{"start":31554.994,"end":31570.019,"text":"好有委員建議休息那其他委員沒有其他意見但是我還是提醒各位我們所剩時間都不多了未來的路蠻坎坷的真的啦因為因為今天"},{"start":31571.738,"end":31590.285,"text":"今天不是 今天因為因為1月7號那我們到1月31嘛那委員會的時間真的不多了啦而且院會也有在借委員會的時間你看如果我們還有160幾項條164條4啦 164條4那我們今天省不到8條次9啦 9 對就等於不到 連十分之一都沒有"},{"start":31601.055,"end":31607.336,"text":"對 然後那麼多各機關都陪我們在這個地方沒有一點些進展 對大家也不好意思"},{"start":31608.024,"end":31634.177,"text":"是 來 請說 來每一次審查法案都是這樣第一次其實是最緩慢那但是因為主管機關已經知道各委員的版本已經出來包括修正動議我是建議就是給他們時間跟委員就是可以再先溝通因為每一件都是來到這個會議的時候大家才開始談真的那個都會慢那有一些如果可以事先先去溝通我覺得之後"},{"start":31635.157,"end":31655.675,"text":"修法今天都是這樣 往後走就會再更順一點第一次都比較困難一點對啦 當然啦 這個第一次 OK 好那個 我們現在做一下決議聲音障礙者權力保障法部分調整修正草案等33案 三位審查完略令責期繼續在審本日會議到此結束現在三位 謝謝大家 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166889","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166889","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468ff8d43baddbdf471301bb1e1b9e929a613ec197a1c72cb6c4bb479112f1783c0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:40:11 - 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T10:40:11+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T10:49:43+08:00","duration":572,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.185968750000001,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.73346875,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.98659375,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.813468750000002,"end":117.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.80346875,"end":26.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.64221875,"end":31.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.63721875,"end":131.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.56034375,"end":122.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.57159375,"end":131.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.75721875000002,"end":164.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.23784375,"end":134.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.64971875,"end":145.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.81971875000002,"end":167.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.87846875000002,"end":186.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.35409375,"end":173.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.65346875,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.97409375,"end":175.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.58909375000002,"end":181.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.16659375,"end":222.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.25471875000002,"end":189.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.84909375,"end":219.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.37596875000003,"end":267.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.82034375,"end":279.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.31659375000004,"end":303.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.84596875,"end":294.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.02721875000003,"end":294.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.04409375,"end":294.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.54159375,"end":296.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.12284375,"end":308.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.43471875,"end":307.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.16846875000005,"end":316.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.40471875000003,"end":308.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.05846875000003,"end":310.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.63596875,"end":313.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.91409375,"end":361.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.66846875000005,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.02284375,"end":322.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.11534375,"end":324.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.13221875,"end":324.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.44846875,"end":325.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.79346875000005,"end":334.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.74659375000005,"end":335.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.11784375,"end":381.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.73596875000004,"end":375.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.18284375,"end":379.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.51159375000003,"end":392.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.75971875000005,"end":386.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.01221875000005,"end":401.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.76284375,"end":395.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.52096875,"end":470.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.11596875000004,"end":428.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.64221875000004,"end":435.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.47159375,"end":447.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.50534375,"end":447.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.97784375000003,"end":449.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.02409375,"end":449.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.26846875,"end":451.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.51471875000004,"end":469.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.96159375,"end":503.10846875000004},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有請次長委員好次長早安我想要先肯定一下去年我們教育部針對教師擴大偏鄉地區傷害保險的適用對象這個部分要給予肯定但是我想偏鄉的教育其實還有很多精進的空間"},{"start":31.055,"end":49.976,"text":"那今天我就這個三大的一個主題那來請教一下就是包含師資的部分人才的流用的問題再來還有行政負擔過重另外還有就是區域教育的資源中心那我想這三個部分其實也值得我們好好的來關心一下"},{"start":50.757,"end":65.703,"text":"我想現在這個偏鄉教育偏鄉學校長期是存在著有邊但是沒人有邊無人這樣子的一個窘境我想實際在撐起教育現場的大部分都是代理教師還有待課教師"},{"start":66.423,"end":86.368,"text":"那我想這是過去的一個制度的設計不管是這個加級啦或者是進修啦甚至所謂的留任的一個誘因喔大多數都還是以所謂的正式教師為主要的思考的一個重點喔那導致這個偏鄉的學校可能會有所謂的在師師上的一個輪替或者是換人"},{"start":87.128,"end":116.729,"text":"那等於是在教學現場的一個對於學生來講是這個他們的一些不穩定的一個狀態那學生也必須要重新的來適應那我想剛剛我有提到其實關鍵並不是我們沒有人才也不是所謂的找不到人但重點是我們留不住人這個部分請教一下這個次長有沒有什麼樣可以穩定師資更確切實際的一些作為或者是我們正在改進的一個研議的一些方法"},{"start":116.889,"end":141.452,"text":"谢谢委员关心事实上那个配量条例我们从2017年底开始上路之后到现在这样8年左右事实上也投入了大量的资源那刚才陈儒刚才我也跟委员在关心说我们这个教室的流动率刚才提到那个代理教室的比例其实都有降从数据来看刚才特别提到说像那个流动率从107年那时候的国小"},{"start":142.112,"end":157.744,"text":"那时候高达2.14那个流动率那到了113年已经降到1.21那么跟全国的平均1.02呢有差距但是也缩短了降幅相当高那国中的部分事实上也从107年的1.92%降到了113年的1.36%"},{"start":163.888,"end":183.288,"text":"我想现在精致教育这件事情对对我们是从数据上看到它的流动率确实降低而且降低的幅度不少这几年一直稳定大概在这上面我们会继续投入资源那代理教师的比例也是一样以前大概三成就是正式一般的大概是13到18%平均那现在大概也到25%"},{"start":184.629,"end":212.117,"text":"左右所以有这样我想我们有进步但是其实还可以再更精进当然可以再精进可以再更精进那这次其实我也提出了这个修法这个学校从这个所谓的自聘合格的一个代理教师应该要纳入他们专聘教师相同的一个在聘的机制跟发展的一个机制那这是我的修法的一个重点那如果有再更进一步的一些盘整或者是说我们对于所谓的这个偏乡教育的一些资源有更详细的一些数字再麻烦提供给我办公室"},{"start":212.577,"end":234.219,"text":"那剛剛其實陳儒這個次長有說像秀博委員他也非常關心這一個部分那同步也給我辦公室那第二個其實我們真的要來就是也很沉重啦因為必須講現在除了教學以外那麼在偏鄉的學校其實常常我們看到老師或者是校長甚至主任他都要身兼所謂的行政"},{"start":234.799,"end":257.635,"text":"還有一些所謂的這個非常細碎的一些雜物那在今年的這個元旦其實這個關鍵評論就有一位這個師培生他特別投書那看了其實很感慨他說他去偏鄉的教學現場看到了一位上了年紀的主任在放學之後還要獨自的打掃學校的廁所這不是一時的心情這變成是一種日常"},{"start":258.155,"end":266.917,"text":"那在偏鄉的一個地區教師實際付出他們在工作的一些時間往往一天都超過至少18個小時以上那我想這個部分"},{"start":267.918,"end":294.209,"text":"偏鄉教育在学校的现场行政是不是真的是很大的一个压力跟负担那这个部分我们怎么解要怎么样来帮助他们对 谢谢委员关心其实这个委员看到那个问题确实就是有些偏鄉他的这个学生数少班级数少人力少所以他很多行政的资源上也不足所以我们有设立这个区域教育资源中心这个就是我等一下要问的"},{"start":294.469,"end":312.975,"text":"他会负责大概很多县市大概是以国中学期设立一个好几个国小他可能会有一些共用的一个行政统合的这个也就是我在草案当中其实我有特别想我们要避免一人多职对我们区域资源中心其实我们每年补助的额度大概在400到600万"},{"start":313.915,"end":331.603,"text":"所以說也有相當的人力的因素因為學校的這個行政的資源如果我們學校行政資源沒有辦法前進其實再多的資資的政策其實都會被這些行政給耗損掉所以這也就是我在草案當中我有特別提到就是行政的業務是不是應該有區域教育資源中心"},{"start":332.683,"end":361.349,"text":"來集中來做支援但是這個問題來囉為什麼要說這個問題來囉這是我有第三個問題因為沒有足夠的人力其實也就沒有明確的一個統籌的權限那也就是說他到底是研究跟支援的單位還是說他應該要把所謂的負責師資他們要共享巡邏巡迴或者是輔導課後的一個統籌的一個協調這個部分我們在分工還有人力上的配置這個部分怎麼解"},{"start":362.182,"end":380.062,"text":"我想这个部分每一个区域教育支援中心面临的可能都不太一样那我们会尽量就是说我们在很多分区会议里面他们也会反映说人力不足或者说那样子的一个学校里面中心学校里面面临的什么重要问题我想每一个在地方先是政府也可以"},{"start":380.683,"end":401.344,"text":"专任的人力其实真的要到位我们不要再让老师来做接班那我想这个偏乡教育不是一年撑过一年就算了其实我们要撑起的是一个代是要撑起一个代其实现在中央财务法我们中央的统筹款少了我们在偏乡每年四十一这部分我们还是保留我们没有减掉"},{"start":401.604,"end":423.295,"text":"那針對我剛剛所提的不管是師資也好或者是我們的行政的負擔也好或者是我們剛剛講的教育資源中心我們要讓他更加有利喔這個部分如果有一些精心的一些報告數據再提供給我好那最後一點點的時間喔我再次的強調喔那去年其實我就一直不斷的在我們的就是"},{"start":424.095,"end":443.797,"text":"教育部备询的时候我有特别提到我们的校事会议的制度的改善那当时其实我们也这个听到这个部长本人他也在立法院有承诺他说在2025年年底之前要完成相关的修法关于校事会议但我们现在看到的现实是"},{"start":444.798,"end":470.758,"text":"要延到12月不是去年说要12月底现在是1月12号那我想要问的是这个对于第一线的老师来说校事会议他们依旧是心里的痛依旧是心里的痛那这个延期到底是跳票还是这个延期中间是有什么环节被卡关了这个部分我是不是先请次长来先说明一下为什么要延到1月12号"},{"start":470.998,"end":499.834,"text":"所以很抱歉就是因为同时在国中小高国中小国教的现场其实有很多问题我们同时在解决包括刚才我们12月31号宣布的导师费行政减量等等这些措施所以我们在这个校师会议的修法在草案公布之后那也有相当的团体大家也可以看到12月22号那个学选团体也来呈请所以我们大概也认为说有些可以在程序上更完备一点所以我们在走这个程序也没有拖很久我们当然"},{"start":500.194,"end":525.622,"text":"沒有在12月底前來那個時候沒有說明那就是1月12因為在這個過程裡面我們其實是有在做一些討論所以1月12號是會入席公佈所以我們1月12號就靜待教育部提出來一些改進的方法包括那個投書的分流大案才進入消失會議以行政考核為主"},{"start":525.882,"end":548.511,"text":"好那我们期待这个1月12号我们听到这个校事会议的这个给第一线的老师他们有一个更完整让他们更心安能够在教学的现场不要再承受太大的一个压力了好吗在公布之前我们也有告诉学校说有些过去反映的不合理的一个那个的做法我们要请学校谨慎使用好"},{"start":548.991,"end":572.131,"text":"那我们就期待这个1月12号我们会听到这个对校师会议的最后的一个交代好吗好谢谢谢谢次长谢谢书长谢谢主席好谢谢郭义景委员官员请回座我们现在休息10分钟下一位发言质询的委员是范云委员"}]}},{"id":"166888","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166888","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fdc9ed3218002b1ad91c86f75780029903ec197a1c72cb6c416cf9a0116e734ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:34:37 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謝謝主席我請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":12.54,"end":40.733,"text":"王委員好部長好其實今天的委員會有很多的委員都關心到就是在高雄市所發生的一個可以算是一種堅守自盜而且這個案件其實真的是已經到了人神共憤的一個階段這個案子雖然它是發生在高雄市地方的衛生局但是它的處理"},{"start":42.239,"end":62.336,"text":"引起外界的詬病跟質疑所以我在這邊想要請問我們中央主管機關以高雄市衛生局它所做的處置大家特別提到因為呢它是在去年八月八月的時候是地檢署開始調查"},{"start":63.217,"end":79.967,"text":"但是他發生時間呢是在去年的6月那這裡面還發生他這個性侵之後他還去考這個什麼相關的這個叫做什麼犯罪防治的措施"},{"start":81.528,"end":102.104,"text":"那麼現在以高雄市衛生局他的處理也就是他一直等到新聞曝光之後他才做裁罰而且根據高雄市政府社會局的公告他是在1月5日才公告"},{"start":104.245,"end":117.549,"text":"1月2號做裁罰那麼這個時間呢事實上已經長達將近半年之久所以我想請問主管機關以高雄市政府針對這個案例這個案例"},{"start":119.21,"end":144.839,"text":"符不符合SOP因為這個我們不敢說它是第一件以後可能也有類似的案件那是不是地方主管機關都可以押這麼久押長達將近半年之久然後才在媒體報導之後你才做處理 才做裁罰 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他在負重什麼"},{"start":300.225,"end":322.452,"text":"他事實上在講說我自己做的很多啊我忍辱負重但是他其中在這一千多字的長文裡面他竟然提到說他說為什麼半年來我們都沒有對外說明社會去質疑我們隱瞞他說要容我說明他說被害人是自殺高風險個案還有複雜的家庭問題處於隨時情緒不穩定的危險狀態"},{"start":327.654,"end":341.811,"text":"部長 請問一下身為衛生局主管機關今天為了這個案子他要來做說明他可以去揭露被害人不管他個人或家庭的這些資訊嗎 可以嗎"},{"start":343.309,"end":355.305,"text":"這當然在我們相關的法規裡面對被害人都有各自保護的義務啦這個是法律明定所以這個有一個兒少的問題對不對兒少法的問題有沒有"},{"start":359.43,"end":373.504,"text":"這個是性侵防治法在性侵防治法裡面對於這個被害人我們有保護他各自的義務所以這個是性侵的案例所以他也有違反各自法的問題嗎"},{"start":375.997,"end":401.274,"text":"個資法有沒有他沒有揭露他的詳細個資啦不過當然我們這個在處理上是對於這個個人的資料要給予就是他個人的一個個人的身心狀態他的家庭狀態我們其實身為主管機關更有保密的義務對不對對主管機關當然所有的職保人員都有保密的義務這個發文適當嗎"},{"start":405.877,"end":430.925,"text":"我看了一下他這個發言裡面是沒有特別是針對哪一個人他說被害者啊 他講被害人他只是在說明說因為在這個事件的過程當中考量到這個被害人是這個自殺的高風險個案所以不宜對外去揭露說明避免造成另一個壓力 這個是"},{"start":432.205,"end":448.779,"text":"可是我們原來外界並不曉得被害人他的家庭的狀態他個人身心的狀態而局長既然為了要自己卸責可以發文這張內容沒有 有沒有違法問題我再確定 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民進黨和幹事黨中嘉賓喔來來 聽一下 剛好聽一下 來對 你可以聽一下 跟你有關係這個我們請國發會請高副主委"},{"start":25.936,"end":44.2,"text":"委員好本期推動離島建設條例我們民進黨團幹事長鍾嘉斌委員昨天開記者會5號開記者會說修法就是要把陳玉珍委員的選區金門變成福建省的經濟特區金門是屬於哪一個省"},{"start":50.752,"end":73.018,"text":"當然是 金門市屬哪一省 應該是中華民國政府的福建省 那有什麼不對呢金門就是福建省金門縣 宗家兵委員可能還不瞭解聽到 大家知道自己不對 走掉了金門是福建省沒錯吧金門是台灣省的嗎 當然是中華民國下面的福建省郭齊在那裡 還懷疑嗎我們再請教 民進黨的這個"},{"start":79.52,"end":95.331,"text":"立委沈博洋說國民黨欲藉由離島建設條例讓地方離島可以排除中央法規的適用簡單來說就是要地方包圍中央然後首等中共統戰的官員受訪表示"},{"start":97.446,"end":120.488,"text":"這個涉及兩岸相關法案應先經討論評估強行通過絕對是為謀其利先受其害現在就連金門縣連江縣政府都不知道在修什麼行政部門反對危害國安的草率修法這個總體來說就是說他們不知道 民進黨不知道金門是福建省"},{"start":121.618,"end":150.198,"text":"金門本來就是福建省我的身份證也在這裡也是中華民國福建省毫無疑問第二個他們認為這個修法民進黨覺得修法修離島監制條例就是要地方包圍中央第三個他們覺得金門縣政府就不要講連江小就講我們金門縣都不知道在修什麼我們提出的這個離島監制條例好第二個請問您這個上一頁我們是福建省金門縣這個毫無疑問吧上一頁"},{"start":152.543,"end":164.981,"text":"有沒有問題啊高副主委這個要想很久嗎當然中華民國這個站在中華民國土地下還懷疑這個問題第二個如果我們基本有幸成為經濟特區也是中華民國下面的福建省的嘛沒錯吧"},{"start":169.12,"end":190.507,"text":"對 我們因為我們台灣事實上沒有那個經濟特區的相關的法律的規範 藉由現行法令來說是 那我們想要立在立到監制條例裡面修法那這個變成中華民國下面福建省經濟特區有什麼有什麼問題呢讓金門變成更好有什麼問題好 請問我們金門縣有沒有跟你跟我們國發會討論過要做法規的鬆綁我想"},{"start":193.968,"end":214.121,"text":"有沒有考過離島條例應該歷年來就有多次的修正對嘛難道是今天才發生的嗎之前張景生張景生你認識吧當然我們行政院政務委員在106年12月底就已經說過因應金馬地區的發展需求要給我們金門這個地方更大金門馬祖更大的彈性"},{"start":215.461,"end":233.546,"text":"所以有指示行政院金馬聯合服務中心用行政委託的方式把金門馬祖蓬湖這些連江這些地方要推動修正離島建設條例行政院都說要推動更大彈性的怎麼會變成是地方包圍中央這個是106年這已經是8年前了現在已經8年前再下一個您看"},{"start":234.916,"end":253.176,"text":"張景生也支持我們金門縣會所提出的八項訴求也事實上就是在我修離島經濟條例裡面提的東西一百一十二年八月金門縣議會議員拜會行政院政務委員兼行政院金馬伶仁服務中心主任張景生他就是以前我們福建省的省主席"},{"start":254.281,"end":278.821,"text":"那針對離島醫療費用建構金門成為兩岸經貿合作先行示範區協助修改離島天然條例等議題討論張俊生允諾張政委那時候是政委這是112年喔這個是大概4年前3、4年前他說要協調專案研議而且要設法解決如果照沈伯陽的說法沈伯陽說這個"},{"start":281.361,"end":302.45,"text":"這個我們要排除中央法規適用地方包圍中央那照這個民進黨現在說法我們要把金門成為兩岸經貿合作先行示範機我們就是中共同路人那現在這個張景深是不是也是危害國安的中共同路人報告委員其實我們離島建設條例會隨著主客觀情勢的改變其實我們"},{"start":303.03,"end":316.485,"text":"其實歷年都有修正都有修正嗎都為了離島都有在修正嗎所以我們今天提出修正又不是突然目前其實因為兩岸的關係特殊而且情況複雜對"},{"start":317.987,"end":329.277,"text":"所以其實我們覺得離島建設條例還是要按照在台灣地區跟大陸人民關係條例下構下面去妥為處理會比較好沒問題啊 但難道離島建設條例難道只是只是面對大陸的條例那兩岸人民關係條例是大陸面對大陸離島建設條例主要是離島要怎麼發展的議題嘛並不是只有跟大陸有關係嘛"},{"start":339.246,"end":348.549,"text":"那而且今年你們知道你沒有抓到這個訊息嗎今年喔這個你們看金門縣政府在113年6月就已經在金門縣議會提出這個修法的專案報告這個建議修法設立離島自由貿易示範區這個我提出來這個並不是我本人個人的意見是金門縣議會金門縣政府共同的意見啦什麼叫做有委員說什麼不知道金門縣政府說金門縣政府不知道修什麼"},{"start":364.475,"end":390.512,"text":"還有今年上個月你看一下應該是11月了去年去年底11月金門縣議會全體議員一致決議通過金馬鵬三里島推動修里島經濟條例修法建議函請立法院議程上個月11月11月20 21議長還有我們金門縣副縣長都來拜會韓院長還有國民黨民眾黨民進黨三大黨團說明修法的必要性和重要性請中央正式離島人民的"},{"start":391.232,"end":409.416,"text":"期待那你們國發會是我們離島建設條例的這個修法的主管單位對金門縣議會和金門縣政府所提出來的離島建設條例修法條文有沒有掌握啊當然我覺得那個委員有沒有掌握我們有掌握有掌握嗎你知道裡面有多少議員提連署嗎你知道有幾位嗎上次來的有你知道有多少議員連署書都給你們了在議會正式提案議會通過了"},{"start":418.24,"end":430.658,"text":"還包括金門縣政府啊都一起到立法院來拜會三個黨團來拜會這個韓院長表示我們金門離島非常想要迫切修改這個離島建制條例的這個因應期盼啊"},{"start":431.823,"end":448.699,"text":"你們有掌握嗎 有多少位議員我們有十六位議員十八位啦 算錯啦 十八位議員啦我們基本上有十九位議員啦有一位民進黨 民進黨也連署啦民進黨的主委也在這個《立場經濟條例》連署表示支持啦在基本上這個是不分黨派的議題啦所以國發會身為這個《立場經濟條例》的主管機關啦"},{"start":453.937,"end":481.957,"text":"請關心離島的發展你們不是被陸委會管但陸委會我們也會跟他溝通啦什麼受兩岸人民關係條例的什麼限制什麼那是另外一件事情我們這些條例的修正不是只有關乎跟踏入的關係啦並不是裡面包含了什麼跟您說一下您如果不了解我讓你理解一下你回去也好好的再看一下那個內容第一要落實土地正義這個公有地的這個購回啦金門地區地上監護祖先服務這些公有土地的購回"},{"start":482.777,"end":505.055,"text":"這是因為軍管時代的事情嘛第二個提供一個治理的彈性根據特殊的地理條件鬆綁不符合離島現況的中央法規第三個要請中央來承擔責任中央要對離島的重大工程要還有維護管理由中央來專款來做你看你們那個離島經濟基金都沒有錢了嘛對不對我們金門縣造一條金門大橋"},{"start":506.636,"end":532.66,"text":"金門 大金門到小金門原來我們自己出10億 說30億的時候我們出30億做到完的時候 100億我們出了50億金門縣自己出了一半這個是中央政府應該出的錢然後現在管理也要我們管理 維護也要我們自己維護什麼都是我們自己做 然後你們好 什麼都我們自己做 我們也可以接受不是說不行 我們財政上可以我們都願意來 努力的來自己做問題是在法令上給我們限制太多"},{"start":533.32,"end":544.547,"text":"金門地區需要發展金門地區的老百姓想法跟這邊有一些民進黨想法就是不一樣我們的地理位置特殊你們要把金門綁實實我們金門到底要怎麼發展"},{"start":546.316,"end":574.383,"text":"我想發展離島是政府一貫的政策有關於資金的支持跟法規有支持嗎離島基建條例都已經空到沒有了有支持嗎我們還是每年都有提撥相關的現在都是用各個部會說用什麼就用離島基建條例離島基建的錢因為離島基建本來就是一個輔導還有法令的支持是不是更重要法令的支持嘛如果你們不能給我們錢請你給我們政策"},{"start":575.458,"end":598.405,"text":"或者請你們幫我們鬆綁我們不是天天來這邊說要錢我們要發展法規的鬆綁所以我們這些離島經濟條例的修正除了爭取地方的權益外很多是希望在法規上可以鬆綁讓金門有一個發展我也不是天天來跟你們說你們要給我們多少錢給我們多少錢這個離島經濟條例的修訂"},{"start":603.135,"end":605.099,"text":"這個是金門縣議會 金門縣政府那天還來了過半的局處長都來 副縣長帶隊金門縣會來了過半的議員連民進黨的主委都簽在裡頭是我們金門縣議員"},{"start":615.908,"end":639.842,"text":"在金門這個議題是不分黨派的我想那個金門縣政府所以你不要只聽到民進黨民進黨執政黨那一個聲音啦其實我們已經回覆給經委會了有關於各個相關部會他們相關的議題請你回去喔來請你回去在一個月內給我金門縣委所提出來的這個離島建設條約這個修法草案內容的建議如果沒有的話也到本席辦公室來要如果你們自己都沒辦法掌握的話"},{"start":640.822,"end":655.953,"text":"報告我們已經把先回給那個經委會了因為經委會要求我們那個企業的好那你馬上就把這個東西回給我好我們等一下馬上給委員然後國發會也麻煩既然是身為立法監測條例的主管機關我們金門的發展與你們這麼的相關也派員我們找個時間派人到金門來聽聽百姓的意見好嗎不要說這好像是陳玉珍一個人的意見那當然不是謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166886","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166886","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f971bcb35216bb07b01bb1e1b9e929a613ec197a1c72cb6c4d43161210f0379b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:25:14 - 10:39:46","影片長度":"00:14:32","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員伍麗華Saidhai 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有請張廖萬堅次長好 請次長"},{"start":19.833,"end":33.843,"text":"委員好市長首先要感謝教育部在去年的最後一天也就是2024年的12月31號全面的宣布了要來調整兼任級待課教師的終點費謝謝漲幅大約是20%國小336調到40國中378調到455高中420調到505本席先前數次關心這個議題回顧近20年來台灣的基本工資大幅調漲2022"},{"start":49.594,"end":53.277,"text":"2006到2026的這20年間時薪從66塊調升到196元這樣的漲幅我想次長應該很清楚是197%相較之下我國的教師終點費國高中35年來僅調整過一次高中從400塊調到420塊國中360調到378漲幅"},{"start":74.872,"end":96.718,"text":"5%那國小則是調整兩次260調到336漲幅29%那20年來教師的這個終點費漲幅真的是遠遠落後基本薪資可以說少得可憐那本次的漲幅雖然沒有達成各界的期待但還是要再次的謝謝教育部這一次調漲讓兼任以及待課教師的終點費"},{"start":99.56,"end":104.427,"text":"從漲18塊只能買一支原汁筆後來還知道這個果汁筆現在要四五十塊一支了"},{"start":105.526,"end":131.112,"text":"到了我們現在的漲了 可以買一隻利可白那我們本來想說 說漲69塊可以買一隻利可白結果咧 現在利可白都90塊啦所以漲69塊 一隻利可白還買不起這20%的漲幅呢 對兼任教師 代課教師雖然我們還是很感謝 但是是一小步那顯然對教育部來說 好像是很了不起的一大步調檔金額總算從一位數"},{"start":132.864,"end":158.094,"text":"的這個percentage 漲到兩位數這個還是不錯但是如果有一天啊調漲金額能夠來到三位數我們剛剛講基本工資漲了197%如果真的能漲到三位數我們真的是要普天同慶啊幫教育部放煙火啊我甚至啊如果真的有這麼一天啊三位數如果我還在這 次長也在這我就cosplay次長來感謝你啦因為今天部長沒來我就不cosplay他啦"},{"start":158.954,"end":187.348,"text":"那除了關心兼任以及待課教師的權益我們要在此關心全體高中以下教師的權益啦以教育部公布兼任待課教師的終點費調漲的同時網路上也有許多的教師發出不平之名他們除了教學工作以外還有很多人要擔任導師啊還有我們一直在講的行政工作要減量啊他們還是持續的肩負喔那本席要在此替他們發聲請問次長教育部這一次宣布調漲兼任以及待課教師的終點費"},{"start":188.248,"end":206.896,"text":"要回溯到2025年的9月1號起生效有許多老師在論壇上反映目前老師請試假或是少於三天的病假都是自己付終點費給代課教師難道這些去年請假的老師還要再補扣款給代課教師嗎這當中的終點費的價差應該要如何支應"},{"start":211.778,"end":232.034,"text":"那對於這個本席的詢問就業部的答覆可以說避重就輕說本次終點費的調整還是要讓教師的終點費自行負擔但是到底回溯的部分是不是正式教師也要回溯再把口袋裡的錢掏出來補給代課教師"},{"start":233.795,"end":256.548,"text":"教育部沒有正面回覆喔所以呢我們現在只好來當面問次長到底這當中終點費的價差如何認定如何指引我想回溯的部分我們沒有一個對這個學校的所謂的統一指導因為那個拆勤系統裡面你要查得出來說老師那個請假是有正式經過拆勤系統的"},{"start":257.108,"end":275.217,"text":"如果是有的話學校有提報基本上它的價差是由中央跟地方這種各50%的負擔喔就看學校的系統啦所以學校比較差的那就就老師自己掏錢了是這個意思嗎當然是不是啦所以如果是一致適用就是一致適用啊如果是老師私底下"},{"start":276.197,"end":302.989,"text":"这种我们怎么去知道说老师有没有透过那个我觉得如果有个别学校有这种私底下的问题我觉得如果老师正式教师是不得已的我觉得教育部还是有责任希望你们还是要全盘的了解一个整体的状态否则不能是你们发的红包是让正式教师口袋里掏钱出来支付我们是编预算来支付的"},{"start":303.269,"end":317.485,"text":"這一點可不可以全面的來確認一下不要讓有正式教師在網路上面搞不清楚狀況最後還真的掏錢了不會有這種情況吧回溯的這個部分回溯的部分那因為是過去了嘛"},{"start":318.106,"end":346.446,"text":"所以委員反映的這個問題的確要關心那這個我們會跟地方政府就剛剛次郎有講到他是在拆秦上是正式有登錄的那比較好認定嘛沒有啦這個沒關係啦一起處理你不要發紅包是中央在發講到有責任要比較複雜的就說是地方請中央肩負起這個責任一起來好不好一起來好不好因為你沒有國力也有私力嘛就一起那我想鄭子老師的待遇最新一次的調漲是114年的軍工教條薪3%"},{"start":348.007,"end":368.415,"text":"那如果兼任和待課教師的終點費調漲20%要從這個部分的正職老師口袋身上出來這個有點康大人之慨我相信這也不是教育部的目的啦對吧所以我想教育部宣布這個紅包啊紅包裡的錢呢不要由正職老師的口袋來出回溯這兩字也是你們寫的你們要就搞清楚"},{"start":368.795,"end":394,"text":"不要回覆我們的文件呢不清不楚讓老師也搞不清楚狀況那我想接下來啊次長我們的政策啊其實我們就希望說要有緩衝期啦否則變柯震啦一個好事變壞事喔所以呢剛剛我們提到這個回溯的部分這個待課終點費的差額在了解清楚的情況之下是不是全額應該由教育部不管你要跟地方政府還是什麼啦就是以公費支應次長可不可以當場承諾啊什麼"},{"start":395.8,"end":417.561,"text":"就是我們講的回溯的部分正值教師口袋裡掏出來支付他們的錢有記錄的這個差額就應該全額由教育部或者你不管你用什麼方式啦以公費之意我剛才也提過他只要有差請系統裡面有記錄的當然就是有公費之處但是你因為各校的系統有差異的我想教育部還是要有責任來處理啦好不好"},{"start":418.061,"end":445.816,"text":"工費能夠來處理因為那個要有依據來你有依據這個依據的辦法你們應該要去協調啊對我們會跟地方協調好不好我想接下來還要再講本次教師待遇的調整的裁員將由教育部協助地方政府本次調整所需的50%同樣是中央的支票地方來買單這50%要怎麼計算有回溯到這個去年9月1號嗎教育部宣布調整之前有沒有跟地方政府討論"},{"start":446.917,"end":472.743,"text":"那如果地方政府回覆真的沒有裁員的資訊教育部要怎麼處理呢對 我想11月25號我們有跟地方政府的代表都協商過那大家是認為這樣的一個政策對於基層老師的士氣是有鼓勵好 是有協商過啦 那就好那我想我要回去講剛剛那個回溯的部分因為您有提到說有一些系統系統如果不夠完整表示它有可能學校本身資源就不足啊"},{"start":473.143,"end":500.598,"text":"如果學校資源不足了你還讓政事老師我想學校都有人事單位好 所以就不會有這個狀況請私駕 請病駕 請什麼他合法在猜刑系統裡面有的我們再次強調說這個部分我們一定會攤起來那另外呢也有老師關心還有一個地方也是不太清楚第八節課和寒暑府的終點費有沒有一併調整是不是也請次長說明我們現在國教署有在思考這個問題我們請署長回答"},{"start":502.179,"end":524.574,"text":"这次调的是在加级表上正式老师或是学校专任老师代理老师在运用的代理代课的费用的终点费那像这一些如果他是比照那个数额的我们会一起考虑如果他是另订的比如说他自己自订一节五百块那一类他是原有计算标准的他不在这一次讨论之列"},{"start":525.194,"end":552.711,"text":"你繞了這麼久你就是在跟我講說你們的回覆嘛就是不算嘛沒有一併調漲嘛那討論當中那一個學校怎麼可以有兩個世界呢一個終點費怎麼可以有兩種計算方式呢那既然有調了是不是就一致來調整那我想你們有說要再討論研議嘛是不是可以一併調整老師們第八節課和韓屬府的終點費那既然有在討論大家加緊時間嘛一個月內可不可以書面答覆本席這個我們"},{"start":555.219,"end":581.533,"text":"快過年了嘛你這個既然紅包要發就發到底啊我們可以來評估啦好不好不要一個學校兩個世界因為我們那個委員你知道我們這跟地方政府各50%啦所以我們也要再找地方政府來反映我相信大家都會支持老師的心智這麼久沒有調整了我相信不會有人去阻擾的我們現在講的終點費是法規上政客的終點費跟代理代課的終點費我爭取一點時間啦比較明確啦我們提到了這個AI啊"},{"start":582.293,"end":607.083,"text":"你們現在做的這個AI的指引我不知道市長有沒有去看啊中小學學生最常使用的AI工具您知道是什麼嗎AI工具那個CHEPGPT嗎有很多啦CHEPGPT Canva Copilot都有啦 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报告委员是所以也不会适用所以这个条文看怎么修才会比较适当而不是说不宜真定因为你定了之后也不适用嘛"},{"start":156.116,"end":181.804,"text":"对不对是这样吗是好好好我们接下来所以农产品市场交易法第17条农产品批发市场之土地及房屋减半征收房屋税地价税或填付这是现行条文所以本席的建议了我们在这个逐条讨论的时候也可以讨论"},{"start":183.91,"end":201.122,"text":"第二項的部分,前項用地專攻農產品共同運銷及後廠使用者,其房屋稅、地價稅或填付,適用第十七條規定。這樣的話,財政部有沒有意見?"},{"start":203.787,"end":227.976,"text":"是报告委员因为本来的农产品市场交易法的第十条也就是委员现在的第一项已经把所需用的土地明定为适同农业用地所以这就是刚报告的已经课征是属于课征填付的范围然后填付又在76年停征所以似乎就不用特别再去如果这样定的话也无妨吗"},{"start":229.161,"end":256.774,"text":"也不會影響到你們的原來的那個政策應該就不用碰到地價稅的問題因為前面四筒農業用地就已經進入到課徵填付的範圍了所以似乎就是只要留房屋稅的部分就可以好這個我們在主條的時候再討論好那個就財政部就請回座部長這個接下來還是要再跟你談這個"},{"start":261.372,"end":279.364,"text":"花蓮光復香這個佛祖街這裡的這些當然我這個照片是一個禮拜前的照片啦不曉得最近有沒有改變還是維持這樣你們有把它清掉了嗎這些土石 砂石"},{"start":280.64,"end":308.721,"text":"相對的如果是在農田上面的部分我們現在正在有一些是在50公分以下的已經開始重新種植了那有一些在50公分以上的他會做整體的一個規劃如果他是落在整體的規劃區的話那線上面的東西就不會先動他了大概是這個方式農水署有沒有人來這樣我來跟部長回顧一下"},{"start":309.983,"end":339.358,"text":"上次我也有质询过你们上次的答复是说因为佛祖接这一代的这些农田有打算有两个方向其中一个方向就是征收你知道吗有两个方向你们现在在之前调查应该调查都差不多了吧"},{"start":340.434,"end":358.092,"text":"我跟委員報告就基本上農田被淹沒大概774公頃左右然後分兩個部分一個部分是靠近靠近河道他有一個緩希望有個緩衝區會被徵收然後那個是水利署對對沒有我現在是談農業"},{"start":359.854,"end":386.396,"text":"對 然後農業部過來的時候就是因為他那邊也是農田啊只是他會被水利水利署會去徵收嘛對 然後過來的話有一部分的區位可能會變成造林的部分因為他的土的 掩蓋的面積比較厚那再過來如果他是50公分以下的我們就會進行所謂的耕作的一個輔導部長 我們現在都談50公分以上的啦"},{"start":387.59,"end":411.525,"text":"我們現在談了50公分以上我們現在有一部分會被徵收那現在要不要徵收那個縣還沒有劃出來我們也正在溝通因為也要當地的居民來同意對這樣那個不管要不要徵收你要徵收也必須把這個土移走不可能一直留在那邊"},{"start":413.513,"end":431.173,"text":"这个我只是拍了一部分的他就在房子的旁边离房子非常近所以对屋主来讲屋主来讲这房子然后他就担心又下豪雨"},{"start":432.503,"end":451.726,"text":"对不对然后他的这是他的土地啊旁边是通常房子旁边就是他的农田嘛他农田又就一直堆这个那么高的沙然后他又不能什么都不能用又担心又被影响所以这个部分"},{"start":454.411,"end":471.069,"text":"現在已經從923、10、11、12要邁入第四個月了一直維持這樣也不是很好看所以這個部分請農業部長再請相關人員去了解"},{"start":472.821,"end":480.586,"text":"我想我會請同仁去了解但是原則上如果土太厚的話你現在處理上面的沙丘是沒有意義的"}]}},{"id":"166860","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166860","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f3ad37f0e09a8c06801bb1e1b9e929a6112e0cc7d569d1688cc49edf8057848505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:34:23 - 09:46:52","影片長度":"00:12:29","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:34:23+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:46:52+08:00","duration":749,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.392843750000001,"end":7.9790937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.265968750000003,"end":9.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.83471875,"end":14.492843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.117218750000003,"end":28.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.21221875,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.85346875,"end":96.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.49471875,"end":29.629718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.83846875,"end":102.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.15846875000001,"end":104.94284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.21284375,"end":113.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.97534375000001,"end":124.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.95409375000001,"end":114.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.13534375,"end":115.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.55159375000001,"end":130.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.54659375,"end":132.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.01471875000001,"end":134.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.69784375,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.31784375,"end":135.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.57846875,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.36721875,"end":183.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.96846875,"end":199.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.76346875000002,"end":207.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.77909375000002,"end":220.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.21284375000002,"end":215.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.46971875000003,"end":218.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.76034375,"end":232.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.68659375000001,"end":240.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.61784375000002,"end":243.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.92971875,"end":247.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.11909375000002,"end":250.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.60784375000003,"end":251.90721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.18159375000002,"end":251.85659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.85659375000003,"end":253.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.32471875000002,"end":260.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.78034375000001,"end":253.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.81409375,"end":253.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.94909375,"end":254.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.06721875000002,"end":254.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.15159375000002,"end":254.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.23596875,"end":254.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.28659375,"end":254.42159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.58534375,"end":264.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.07409375000003,"end":270.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.50346875,"end":271.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.09409375,"end":278.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.58346875,"end":272.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.97471875,"end":292.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.84284375000004,"end":288.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.66909375,"end":352.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.71846875,"end":354.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.85721875,"end":372.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.91784375000003,"end":379.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.29659375,"end":383.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.40971875,"end":386.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.82284375,"end":388.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.58596875,"end":392.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.48846875000004,"end":424.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.75409375000004,"end":423.54284375000003},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我们会定定要点你们要定定要点要做个盘点不是地方政府送上什么你们都没有做任何既然挂上一个教育部这就是你们的责任跟角色请次长特别注意好 我们会进一步来解释还有刚刚我们特别提到了我们在这个12月31号你们对于老师的职业"},{"start":149.215,"end":169.286,"text":"这个职务加急导师加急坚韧的在代理代课的终点费跟增加行政公众奖金三项都有给予一些的薪资补贴我给予肯定但是但是我最重视的2024年11月所通过的这个学生辅导法我们有个附带决议希望能够给专府人员调薪到目前为止"},{"start":171.466,"end":199.075,"text":"然後你們給我們的理由就是因為考慮類似這個職務人員的這個薪資的橫平性拜託次長署長這個薪資的橫平性已經講了很多的而且社工那個協會裡面也特別提到的這不不會做這樣的一個影響為什麼你們沒有辦法說服行政院給予這樣子流動度很高的心理諮商是跟社工是更好的一個待遇呢這問題在哪裡我就覺得我們在審法在審個心酸的"},{"start":199.835,"end":217.88,"text":"每次通過的部分裡面然後你們告訴我沒有錢然後考慮其他的問題然後都不給我們錢那你叫這些人繼續做功德嗎 次長其實 那委員的建議我們都聽到了其實也在跟行政委溝通那也開了好幾次會那到底誰哪個部會 不同意先到衛福部那邊他們也有相當的能源是衛福部嗎不是 先要統一考量啦"},{"start":220.241,"end":240.12,"text":"这个早就是这个问题了你们就是因为给人家的社工是薪资不够高我们如果薪资够高的话人家会抗议人家已经告诉你这不是问题这是一个借口这是一个借口所以这个问题都要怎么解决我们都已经所有的人都在这个委员会里面大家透过这个附带决定已经同意教育部也同意了那为什么还是到这样结果呢"},{"start":241.101,"end":263.624,"text":"目前正在加緊協調啦應該是我們就來看看什麼時候好不好我會好好的部分你會讓很多的人我想你們的關心跟教育部其實立場是一樣的啦是啊我們也會近期跟委員回報那個拜託我們的教育部我真的覺得遇到行政院都是我們教育部先讓步啦你們真的是真的大家鼓沒有讓步啦我們在溝通中啦因為有涉及到其他部會的一個"},{"start":264.124,"end":278.371,"text":"好 我们就看你怎么沟通那还有另外一个需要沟通的就是我们的校师会议1月12号先确定会公布吧会 会公布你们有跟其他的教师团体都有做过充分的讨论吗会不会公布完之后更打击我们所有教师的士气呢"},{"start":279.131,"end":308.202,"text":"我想我们是衡量各方面那这一次最主要是要解决教师现场所谓滥诉或者是投诉而且我告诉你我们在投诉的那个建树上有做过数据的分析还有次长 署长你们都知道最近的新闻都说真的是一个这个校师会议处理不当的话真的是碾碎非常多教师的一个热情然后呢大家真的不知道现在要为谁辛苦为谁忙很多人干脆什么事都不要做我举个最基层的一个例子好的这是我"},{"start":308.962,"end":324.046,"text":"到教育圈现场因为目前有很多人跟我们申请举例来说目前为止来说呢因为上传学生活动的照片的公开网页然后被检举这还是包括七年前上传学生的一个照片老师要被约谈然后呢"},{"start":324.446,"end":351.837,"text":"各地方政府都会要求以后只要有任何跟学生影像有关的要获得学生的一个同意这是保护个资无庸置疑但是有些学校这是过度解读到你在运动会的时候拍学生的照片也要经过学生否则你就要用AI处理这就是很多学校在学校里面的网站的照片就长成这个样子嘛这像画吗次长"},{"start":352.798,"end":354.209,"text":"搞成這個樣子全部都AI"},{"start":355.939,"end":383.674,"text":"全国有很多学校都是这样子因为你们要求人家什么地方学校的运动会学校的什么成果展只要有学生的照片老师要的话就就不能够除非经过他的允许以后老师都不要帮学生拍照了不然就是变成这样的不然叫家长自己去拍搞成这样子因为学生拍了老师拍的就到校系会里面被约谈然后呢约谈最后结果不管怎么样光是被约谈这个动作就对老师多么不尊重"},{"start":384.494,"end":392.227,"text":"然後地方政府就是這樣子啊你覺得這樣合理嗎 次長當然是我覺得這個是有點過頭啦"},{"start":393.615,"end":422.634,"text":"我告诉你啊全国你去看有很多学校的网页就是长成这个样子就是因为如果他不是这个样子的话连七年前连七年前的曾经上传学生照片在这个所谓的社交平台上面都要被检举都要被送到校师会议被询问我觉得这次校师会议里面让老师非常伤心然后很多人真的就会你只要有机会去看看所有下面老师的留言里面你就会发现其实如果"},{"start":422.794,"end":448.331,"text":"有非常多的辛酸啦如果只是传活动照片在学校网页说要进校师会这个我是不了解有这个状况不过我想在我们修法之后应该不会有这个问题来 我们修法之后不会有这个问题你要讨论这些问题我都可以告诉你这些的公文跟这些老师的辛酸是我们回到我们这个部分来完全是失去他的尊严所以我对于你1月12号所公布的所谓的校师会的改革我想非常多人都会非常的关切"},{"start":453.855,"end":472.243,"text":"然后我们来看看这个偏乡教育流动率高大概4.5年而且我不要说台北是什么三招四招我们偏远地区都已经到20招了还是没有人然后你看看我们的代理教室的比例是非常的高所以我就特别提到这个讨论很多但是结构非常的不稳我们再往下看"},{"start":473.263,"end":484.871,"text":"然后我也知道彭署长也很努力要跟大家来做沟通2023年你讲过这句话请问署长有关于这些我们所认的专聘教师目前你沟通的状况是如何"},{"start":485.879,"end":508.153,"text":"跟委员报告一下第一点专聘老师他是代理老师那后来大家觉得用正式老师最能够解决问题也最稳定因此这四年来我们禁用了两万名的正式老师所以在沟通之后有这样的一个成效至于专聘老师他其中一个好处是能够有公费进修的这一类的保障其实他最近还是代理老师"},{"start":508.433,"end":525.875,"text":"所以用郑安平老师来注意的郑安平老师比戴笠老师戴笠老师他们中间只称了一个绩效奖金我告诉你这个说实在的诱因还是不足你光是看到这个部分嘉义的部分呢我们来看看这个数据嘛对不对它是两年那个契约嘛嘉义的时候呢我们人报道嘛"},{"start":526.195,"end":549.177,"text":"隔年陆续离职新北仅剩下一个人来报到其他没有其他的学校来学校县市来跟进所以呢这个教师证的这个层面我们还是要慎重来考虑你虽然告诉我们说很多人都是变成正式老师的没有我告诉你专聘教师的这个制度来说的话目前他的诱因你必须从这个数字来看其实没有那么足的"},{"start":550.218,"end":576.87,"text":"别那么足的那当然还有包括我们往下看还有很多的问题为什么一定要坚持六年我们有没有机会稍微做一些弹性的比如说两年三年在偏乡休息之后到别的偏乡四年或三年还是可以取得戒病因为在一个学校永远留到一个六年其实很多人并不是没有热情而是来自于他的家庭因素健康因素等等的一些的因素这就都有可能反复"},{"start":577.31,"end":606.89,"text":"包含在内我只是认为偏乡教育的部分弹性度应该要够大每个人都是不太一样而且你们虽然给大家有九任奖金还真的介绍九等奖金真的是等来等就要等很久而且因为周围已经站上来了我还是一路漏完气你们才来部分很多时候要同校服务八年否则归零这些都是没有弹性的还有往后面很重要的就是你们要落实很多时候这个点我为什么要提出来"},{"start":607.45,"end":636.79,"text":"因为呢因为台风天的关系很多时候你们对于一百零几年我看一下啊一百零八年以前的这个老师没有保障一百零九年学年度之后到职者你们对于他们一些额外伤害还有包括一些等等的法规的福利都有但是呢资深的却没有照顾在内这些都是在法规年限限定问题上面你们应该去做一个检讨的嘛这有点在惩罚资深老师"},{"start":637.61,"end":662.39,"text":"我想这个部分我们会来我们听到我们一直在询问那也会来做改善那刚才委员去提到的我们其实从106年底这个偏乡条例上路之后其实那个老师的流动率透过正式编制的大量释出事实上他的流动率是降低的非常明显107年的时候国小的偏乡这些偏乡老师的流动率是2.1%现在是"},{"start":664.533,"end":678.433,"text":"1.21%降的相当多那国中的部分呢是从1.9%107年到113年是1.36所以它其实是我觉得这个数据跟我所认知起码是在我第一线教书的学生的层面的流动率上"},{"start":678.994,"end":708.529,"text":"事实跟数据上是有一点我的认知上是有一点的差距的我需要对这个数据上面来做更深入的了解你要来提供但是的值的层面上面我刚刚特别提到了在风雨当中人家108年之前的老师通常都没有向你们得到这么多的一个福利这个建议我们可以来这个部分里面我就要全面否则同样一条路好不好归向失路没有道理说你有这个年限的差别就差别好不好谢谢 谢谢委员"},{"start":708.849,"end":736.258,"text":"我肯定你们对于一些事情的处理因为我们在2016年就在这边就开始讨论偏乡教育如果说你在这几年当中没有改进数字没有降低那我们都不知道在干什么但是这改进的幅度还有对于优秀老师的留任对于让我们偏乡的孩子不要因为老师不断的换然后让他们觉得没有办法有所依附我们共同责任可是我还是要强调目前的措施跟目前的奖励制度非常大的改进制度"},{"start":736.778,"end":749.526,"text":"还有最后最后我们就看看1月12号的校事会议因为这是决定老师士气有没有办法被再次提振的最重要的关键好吧好 谢谢委员好 谢谢柯志恩委员"}]}},{"id":"166870","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166870","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f1c9f6ca19377f4765d44f5a94e3adf353ec197a1c72cb6c4a7f691524d59037b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:55:45 - 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討論到今天的主題其實受險之所以不願意回流投資的原因一來 國內投資標的非常有限二來 他為了投資預定利率比較高的地方卻是有高風險的情況底下由於形成了過去過度高利的債券然後過度的吸金 過度的曝險才會有過度的避險這是惡性循環的問題"},{"start":43.101,"end":69.835,"text":"即便如果你現在修正了這個會計原則的一個定義那會計界也配合你的情況底下但我們如果沒有解決這個過度曝險的問題其實可能會讓問題更加的惡化所以本席先提醒一下這個彭主委彭主委就像最近討論到委內瑞拉的問題當中本席就要就教於您了委內瑞拉這個部分金融業部分就銀行業的部分總共在委內瑞拉曝險總共145億"},{"start":71.816,"end":86.223,"text":"其中單一業者金額就超過135億投資什麼什麼項目都不清楚這種曝險的情況底下讓整個存款戶會憂心忡忡到底我這一家有沒有中標"},{"start":88.365,"end":106.457,"text":"這個問題主委你有沒有特別去注意它當然這個事情一發生以後我們第一時間就開始去了解因為這已經不是第一次前一陣子南非比如說俄羅斯其實我們都很關注我們充分的掌握這些那到底投資的是什麼它是主要投資國際開發銀行的債券國際開發銀行債券那債券的等級又怎麼樣"},{"start":111.5,"end":119.423,"text":"這個等級應該是AA吧AA 那就我們比較放心就是要披露啊可是呢主要是牽涉到委內瑞拉有AA的還好你如果WB的你就慘了你去看一下哥倫比亞的哥倫比亞目前曝險的金額高達是1385億1385億單一的業者你知道嗎就高達629億"},{"start":138.49,"end":158.401,"text":"那依照目前的金控法的第46條三大金控對哥倫比亞的曝險都應該要分別揭露富邦187億國貸184億中信163億可是呢這三個看起來都是小咖了最大咖是629億不曉得是哪一個保險公司"},{"start":159.201,"end":186.33,"text":"依照現在監控法當中只有監控接入保險公司不一定要接入可是我個人的評估單一鋪險業者規模可以投入投到這麼高的金額算一算 主委我們來猜一米是不是南山我請問你我們想說是不是南山對不對 對嘛我沒有說好這要跟他們確認一下對不對你就講一下就好你連這個都沒掌握629億呢"},{"start":189.678,"end":209.711,"text":"對是三大金控加起來還不夠他的多呢是哪一家是南山是南山嘛這629億是南山為什麼還需要這麼拆來拆去呢有三大金融業在海外的曝險只有金控的部分要揭露里當銀行要揭露保險要揭露"},{"start":210.071,"end":228.829,"text":"都應該要揭露才對啊不是嗎主委我們應該去修法對不對應該比照監控法第46條對不對我想我們會來研究那個資訊充分揭露這件事情本來就是為什麼要揭露就是說目前投資的這些高利的這個垃圾債已經降到BP級本來是BP加上BBA"},{"start":229.83,"end":236.597,"text":"就是哥倫比亞的主權債還有包括國家石油債都被惠譽這個調降到雙方調到BBA統計上這個高達1385的這個垃圾債這麼高 主委你要怎麼辦"},{"start":246.952,"end":276.012,"text":"三大金控再加上南山要怎麼處理我想這部分因為其實他們在整個可以投資這裡都是我們法規規定他一定有配比一定有一定的條件這本來就是一定是他們現在合規只是說配比一定的條件就高達七成了啦譬如說他投資的時候跟現在的狀況比如說會計上該認列預期損失他們就該認列但是剛剛講說主委你要如何把他特別輔導讓他負險減少把他引回來這是一個很重要的關鍵"},{"start":277.473,"end":289.944,"text":"為什麼這些受險公司願意把這個錢拿去川普口中的這些毒梟集團啊而不願意回流投資這些公共的這個建設啊只因為利率高就一直投"},{"start":292.29,"end":309.549,"text":"是風險於無物目前還是這樣為止你現在給他蘿蔔說修改這一個公允的原則的定義還是會計公允原則的定義可是你沒有減少他曝險的可能性這要相對來進行主委你不覺得嗎"},{"start":310.109,"end":336.77,"text":"當然是 剛剛委員提到有兩個風險一個是匯率 一個是信用風險這兩個是完全不一樣的做法因為剛剛提到一個是匯率風險對 這裡是信用風險那又是信用風險對但是有沒有可能我們現在接軌IFRS 17還有包括ICS的過渡期有15年的過渡期你應該設定一個KPI或者是一個操作模式讓它要求每年逐年降低這個曝險的金額有沒有可能"},{"start":337.49,"end":363.075,"text":"這機制把它融入進去這要從制度解決不是從個案解決我們來檢討一下比如說我們現在對這些比如說非投資等級的投資的比重跟投資的金額以及投資的限制這些我們從制度上來解決麻煩就從制度上來解決以減少曝險不要七成目標那麼高一直要降下來降多少好不好麻煩你研究一下就是風險跟報酬上面"},{"start":363.795,"end":384.117,"text":"然後麻煩你這個方法一個月後給本席一個這內容你要如何讓他回來這是第一個第二個呢最近本席有提到這個轉大人ETF的部分我知道國發會的副主委來國發會副主委來一下你們跟衛福部還有那個金管會的主委也看我先問一下金管會主委這個彭主委你怎麼看這個案子"},{"start":385.318,"end":411.926,"text":"有沒有可能跟TESA結合過去我們的TESA是著重在成年以後的第三支柱的建構那這次的重點是在於出生新生兒到他成年之前的所謂的第一桶金的建構我覺得觀念上是一致的但是我們原來做的目標是等於說不一樣不過這個東西其實上可以結合對象別不同嘛那個高富我想這個部分應該有一個確定的方向以前的衛福部這個兒少專戶應該只是存款"},{"start":414.907,"end":435.544,"text":"現在要變成流量變成投資嘛這個方向定了嘛我想現在行政院正在有交由相關部會研議當中那個國會我覺得建議你在高度衛福部有他的局限性的限制應該讓金管會扮演比較大的角色啦好 現在請回我請金管會主委主委你如果說比照TESA就會出現一個問題台灣TESA我請財政部長上來一下"},{"start":438.166,"end":448.492,"text":"TESA過去以NISA半年的實施我們比照NISANISA半年的實施就有727萬戶日本我們弄了半年我們才7萬戶人家的零頭差了720萬戶人家的金額是多少1.5兆的日幣總共新台幣大概是3000億我們多少搞了半年才90億"},{"start":463.697,"end":486.609,"text":"主委你沒有挫折感我看的都很有挫折感其實跟我們報告我完全沒有挫折感你沒有挫折感差那麼多你沒有挫折感你這麼有信心我們對制度的建立我們在培養國人長期投資的關係原因就是誘因太低主委講白點早期我就跟你講你TESA只有手續費的經理費的部分誘因太低關鍵還是在稅人家的稅額在TESA 1.0的部分有100萬的免稅額"},{"start":491.411,"end":495.358,"text":"到现在终身2.0是有1800万了终身"},{"start":497.401,"end":521.481,"text":"足足是超过五百多万三百多万那个来来来那个主委你休息一下我知道不是您问题是部长的问题部长这个问题呢就是要如何股市全民受分享大家愿意投入一个很重要的东西就是在这个部分可是过去财政部过度以待所得税的部分我们整个税源的结构过度以待所得税税顺便你频频不敢放嘛"},{"start":522.242,"end":535.979,"text":"你們應該稍微釋放一下這個所得稅的部分讓這個金額擴大一下才能真的讓整個TESA能夠增加之前剛剛提到了這個部分當大人ETF是小孩子你要讓全民共享的話真的要靠TESA部長"},{"start":538.411,"end":541.153,"text":"跟委員報告有關TISA跟NISA的比較其實我們也做過比較那目前台灣所推現行有關各方面的稅負的優惠其實並不輸給NISA但是為了這個所謂的ETF他所謂的TISA這個部分"},{"start":554.02,"end":564.148,"text":"要不要再擴大釋出有關的租稅的一些優惠的部分那才任務也和金管會一直在持續的討論所以主委要求是所得啦部長你所得的部分只要你比照勞保自體勞退自體6%的設計你用一個設計上有一個總和的設計基本上就可以吸引到很多人來加入我們的TISA部長你稍微旁邊稍微休息一下我問一下主委"},{"start":579.941,"end":601.689,"text":"再拉回來說不斷是整個這個整個稅制的優惠的一個關鍵之外還有你有沒有可能泛寬標的你目前為止只有35黨的基金有18家投信業者的加入但是只侷限於基金沒有開放到台股或ETF的情況底下我覺得那個"},{"start":602.529,"end":626.402,"text":"你要稍微要放寬一點這個是我們我們是一個逐步漸進的策略逐步漸進 來因為主要是我們的TESA你要怎麼逐步 我很好奇一個月的時間麻煩報告一下來 那我再請一下部長部長我剛剛讓你漏掉你TESA的這個鼓勵的部分要限額免稅的部分你說你有在評估麻煩一下 麻煩一下一個月給我報告一下給我一份報告一下 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":627.563,"end":645.509,"text":"最後一個部分也是跟部長有關係財政部長 部長慢點走主席給我一分鐘一下最後一個這很關鍵我們現在有91.4萬的空屋還沒有釋出當社宅所以說以至於讓我們社會住宅現在停擺目前多屋持有者的部分在2021 10戶以上有總共1734件1007件補稅補了1億5戶以上17603件3053戶補稅1.4億2024年18000件"},{"start":656.593,"end":673.621,"text":"目前的進度怎麼樣目前進度是我請負稅署署長來幫我說明一下要划幾件 補多少稅您是說那個主任第三波 多無自由者高風險查核計畫我們才還沒 最後一季的還沒回報那上次已經是我記得那稅額是 第二次有回報"},{"start":674.793,"end":693.761,"text":"因為我們是按計以回報的第二次你已經披露了可是第三次你什麼時候會披露您說是八千戶那第三波第三次的專案查核因為是兩年為期所以是到去年為止對 去年為止目前還沒回報最後的結果那大概什麼時候我們設定的日期是什麼時候回報可能要到二月二月因為他們要結案再回報那個跡象農曆過年前可以出來嗎"},{"start":702.15,"end":707.976,"text":"農曆過年期 我們趕趕看好不好好 就麻煩了 那個署長謝謝部長 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"166869","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166869","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468ff2089b9d2056e2e591c86f75780029903ec197a1c72cb6c45f40f2ff3a0ba36f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:59:12 - 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麻煩我們的衛福部部長請使部長部長早 林管理長早那當然今天的主題是很多民間團體包含我過去一直很關心我們兒少權益的委員們都引領盼望的能夠針對於我們的衛福部的主改能夠今天能夠順利來做討論當然可以通過 能符合民間的需求"},{"start":33.444,"end":62.581,"text":"那今天大概很多個重點我就不一一在講因為我主要還是要針對兒家屬來做討論首先我想針對事故傷害防治的業務就請教部長在未來成立的兒家屬當中事故傷害防治的事項包含策略擬定跟推動數據監測和死因回溯等是否會整併進來因為今天我們一直在催生可是我們並沒有去處理死亡這件事情我們生的少死亡數又高所以這部分請部長回答一下"},{"start":63.021,"end":91.809,"text":"好 更為包括在健康台灣的目標裡面有一項就是要降低這個兒童兒少的死亡率所以這我們把它定在這個目標裡頭所以在未來這個兒少署成立之後那麼有一組在兒童健康組的部分就會納入有關於兒童健康包含了這個死因的分析來介入這個政策來降低這個死亡我聽到你這樣講很高興因為目前我看到我們的院版的一個草案當中並沒有"},{"start":92.57,"end":97.572,"text":"看到這樣的相關文字因為我要再三的強調0到17歲的事故傷害"},{"start":98.018,"end":127.539,"text":"已經是位居第一名而且我們比日韓的死亡數和傷害的數據事實上是高的所以每一年大家都超過150個孩子因這樣子而失去生命所以執法機關也應該按照現在應該做死因回溯可是我們只做6歲以下所以我們希望說未來應該要提升到18歲可是我們希望這個能夠去納入我也希望說要去做事故的數據的監測第二個就是再來就是要談死亡"},{"start":128.103,"end":147.651,"text":"的自殺 剛剛講事故傷害地名 可是接下來就是14到25華的 我們的自殺率就是非常高 那我相信部長也很清楚 過去興建市也有委託學者分析兒少自殺的成因 許多研究也都指出相較於成人自殺率逐年下降 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請阿辰部長我們請陳部長請你啊請你啊這也是你的啦那個 瑞郎"},{"start":29.6,"end":57.192,"text":"委員好 我聽 剛才民進黨的立委說總預算被卡住了卡住總預算不就是賴清德總統跟卓鴻泰行政院長嗎從國際上來看全世界的民主國家哪有一個立法院三讀通過的法定預算不編的從中華民國的歷史來看包括以前民進黨執政的陳水扁時代蔡英文時代那種立法院通過的三讀預算"},{"start":59.281,"end":87.899,"text":"不編的呢卡關總預算我也跟委員報告齁也沒有一個立法院沒有立法院在年度的時候都還沒有審去年度的預算從來沒有過就是因為賴清德跟總統太卡關嘛這全世界的笑話存在賴清德一念之間他想通了總預算馬上就審馬上沒有卡關的問題總預算卡關去年也卡住啊保定你應該很清楚啊去年為什麼卡住"},{"start":90.097,"end":106.271,"text":"農業部立法院通過了公糧收購要調高你一直卡還有原住民的競爬補償行政院一朝前都不偏我們非常尊重委員的我現在非常尊重委員我也很尊重你所以相對的我們預算盡快的來審保定"},{"start":110.515,"end":125.877,"text":"就是因為總統跟行政院把他卡住你趕快編法定預算進來我們可以把總預算進到委員會審查的說委員有任何意見那還可以再做後續的不管是追加或其他的方式來處理去年不就是卡關以後有成功解決的成功個案嗎"},{"start":127.034,"end":152.148,"text":"去年 你的公糧收購你沒有編後來不是我代表黨團 我們到行政院去朝野協商嗎 你也在場啊後來你們引落了 把原住民的金髮補償條例調高把公糧收購調高 醫生不就審了嗎你們先自殺問題 你們不解決問題我們跟你朝野協商 我現在跟你講了我跟委員報告喔 如果委員任何一個條案說金人要調高欸 金人有成功對不對 法定"},{"start":157.236,"end":183.733,"text":"去年公糧收購解決啦公糧收購的不是你的貢獻絕對不是你的貢獻你是說調高五塊錢五塊錢的話今天水稻就倒掉了我們是透過整個的不是好好的嗎我告訴你我們的設計完全跟你的不一樣我們的設計完全跟你不一樣今年的糧價非常好絕對不是你的貢獻是我們農業部針對糧食產業升級多方面的一些去支持才有的"},{"start":183.973,"end":210.748,"text":"你該調高 有嘛 對不對你如果沒有調 你那個整個施政都是假的啦最核心的農民講得清清楚楚嘛你該調高我公糧收購的價格你也調了嘛 我現在這個問題講你去年卡關就是賴清德只要想通一年之間公糧收購問題解決原住民問題解決嘛公糧收購的是農業部單獨的問題今年卡住了金人家薪昨天晚上還發生了不幸事情我們F16V的這個飛關"},{"start":213.308,"end":221.708,"text":"發生事故跳傘到現在人都還沒有找到我們在野黨包括民眾黨要求提案軍人每個月加薪三萬塊都通過啦"},{"start":223.376,"end":250.237,"text":"你現在趕快加薪這個問題不就解決哪有考官這個問題所以我現在提醒一下全世界民主國家都是這樣解決問題的中華民國也是這樣解決問題去年更有成功的只要把金人的問題解決把警消人員所得貼的問題解決跟去年一樣沒有考官問題馬上審議算所以現在考官的是總統跟行政院長好 接下來我要跟你談老農的經濟安全的問題就是退休儲金等一下我們要進行討論嘛"},{"start":252.009,"end":280.191,"text":"還有老農津貼的這個問題那現在變成當地咖啦老農的這個晚年經濟的這個安全網啊變當地咖第一個我們退休儲金漲不大第二個老農津貼啊一直在限制當中我先給大家看一下農業部說啊要照顧我們的老農要做兩件事情就是退休制度由老農津貼跟農民的退休儲金共同的過程我給大家看一下這個"},{"start":282.145,"end":301.924,"text":"老農今天從民國84年的6月份開始開辦那時候一個月3000塊錢 到現在調高到最新的是8100塊錢他很多時候是依照物價指數GPI來調整的調了多少 38.57可是部長我先幫你看一個比較嚴重的事情"},{"start":303.39,"end":332.618,"text":"右邊這個這是台灣民眾每個月消費的支出在民國84年12501塊錢到了今年 到了113年變多少2600多欸所以就遠遠追不到嘛 追不上去嘛 對不對所以在上個月24號我們在未還跟經濟的聯席會上很多議委 包括民眾黨都有提說要把這個老農津貼的幅度要適度的提高你說送到行政院 那現在已經定案了嗎 要提高多少"},{"start":334.744,"end":351.779,"text":"我跟委員報告 今天是在審我們相關的這些農業 科技 研究 植物 品種學那相關的這些農民退休的一個制度我們上次在委員會已經報告過了那現在您這邊所提到的我今天就是要追蹤說你到底定你不是說送到行政院兩個禮拜啦定了沒有"},{"start":352.472,"end":374.147,"text":"我們當然訂啦我們只是在等適當的時間送到院會裡面會送到立法院來我跟你委員報告齁您在這邊提的這些經費這些經費如果大家討論有共識那大家OK行政部門跟立法部門如果有共識那退就非常順那同樣的如果總預算"},{"start":375.25,"end":403.89,"text":"不去處理 再多的法案增加農民福利的東西 也沒辦法做啦所以回歸段還是要在總預算要盡快的去實行全國民眾都知道嘛 趕快把軍人加薪警消的手的踢下去 那個解決啦總預算就省啊就農業部的預算來講我們哪一個部分 如果在委員會大家可以有問題可以說這次你有解決了 這次用同樣方法趕快啊 就沒有卡關問題啊啊你現在在講 我現在問你老人津貼後來訂了嗎"},{"start":405.529,"end":429.295,"text":"你覺得今天還不適合講就對了 今天還不適合講就對了啦是不是我們送到立法院立法委員就知道啦你以前的質詢答詢不是這樣子啦對不對因為我覺得你非常不合理啊你真的非常不合理啊為什麼不合理我覺得我們的所有的總預算應該該進到委員會就進到委員會如果委員會有任何的問題不管在哪個部會有問題的都可以在那個部會去提嘛"},{"start":429.875,"end":436.7,"text":"那舊農業部來講沒有 舊農業部來講農業部的預算已經沒有了要進到經濟委員會好了啊你們在行政你們為什麼不在經濟委員會去來執行農業部的預算那你去年為什麼要到行政院長的辦公室去協商那不就是解決問題的方法嗎你去年為什麼要去"},{"start":453.649,"end":465.473,"text":"我不是因為你去的對啊我不是因為你去的那是為國家大政嘛那是一個正常的國家 正常的體制 正常的方法嘛而且他成功嘛行政院長 我們三長民眾黨團的三長 國民黨的三長 民進黨的三長一起去把問題解決了嘛"},{"start":470.214,"end":496.194,"text":"我今天提供了不要吵架我們現在共同要解決問題好不好 時間到了去年既然可以成功當然今天就是可以成功 你是在威脅我覺得你是用這種東西去威脅我們的預算預算一定要進到審查你這樣講不就是威脅別人嗎最重要是用法治面來解決問題全世界的民主普通國家都這樣解決以前的民進黨政府連陳水扁連蔡英文都這樣解決我們農業部的預算覺得經得起考驗只要進到委員會我們就來溝通嘛"},{"start":497.955,"end":500.343,"text":"趕快跟總統跟院長講啊趕快解決法定預算的問題我們時間到了 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166867","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166867","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f26572e541871ba6791c86f75780029903ec197a1c72cb6c41b9ac0c7026c83ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:51:36 - 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謝謝主席 我們有請石部長請石崇良部長"},{"start":11.71,"end":34.959,"text":"王媛好部長好部長首先我還是要問有關於高雄新衛中心的這個何芷蜜她竟然違法去收集個資而且還性侵未成年少女這件事情我覺得這個是在社福體系跟衛生體系來講爆發了非常重大的事件但是這個事件爆發到現在我看到了幾個問題"},{"start":36.32,"end":63.215,"text":"第一個是整個行政的不管是對於他社工師證照的這個懲戒、撤照也好到現在竟然他還有社工師的執照這是完全不可思議非常非常的緩慢請問什麼時候他的這個社工師證照用最快的速度應該要廢止這樣的人哪有資格擔任社工師啊真的非常的可恥啊"},{"start":64.677,"end":82.825,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們也有進行了解為什麼因為我按照社工司法大概有兩個程序我覺得高雄市政府失職耶一個是等到法律判決之後依法撤銷他的證書另外一個就是一副懲戒那確實在十月的時候有一副懲戒"},{"start":83.345,"end":97.394,"text":"那怎麼那麼慢呢但是因為呢這個當事人當時候被羈押所以讓那個懲戒的程序中止沒有辦法繼續進行那現在又重新啟動了所以應該在近期內就會做出決定我覺得這個你們要好好徹底檢討這個在社政體系這邊我個人認為這個不可思議而且太緩慢了"},{"start":104.719,"end":131.377,"text":"如果高雄市衛生局如他們所說在8月9號就已經計兩大過免職解聘了那懲戒怎麼沒有跟上來還有社會局為什麼橫向社會局的裁處裁罰是見報才裁罰為什麼沒有跟上呢一個人如果可以被計兩大過免職表示罪證確鑿嘛這個是事實嘛你還等什麼檢調的調查報告呢"},{"start":133.238,"end":148.654,"text":"為什麼沒有跟上 你有瞭解嗎社會局到什麼時候才懲處事件爆發之後才懲處他60萬1月5號才把他的姓名公告 按照兒少法他才公告到這個CRC的網站上面"},{"start":149.81,"end":166.792,"text":"有處理起這麼重大事件這麼牛部的嗎請問他們在睡覺嗎他們到底是發生了什麼事情還是那個衛生局局長隻手遮天什麼訊息通通都掩蓋連社會局也不知情嗎是這樣子嗎為什麼都不處理我們會"},{"start":168.795,"end":184.189,"text":"督促這個地方社會局這邊的懲戒趕快進行我覺得不是督促的問題我要問的是那請問地方什麼時候告訴中央這件事情有完整的告訴你們"},{"start":185.29,"end":203.478,"text":"他有沒有通報給你們的相關單位這是非常重大一方面又違反兒少法一方面他也是違反性侵害犯罪防治法非常重大的事件而且根據性侵害犯罪防治法第五條中央本來就有督導地方性侵害防治事項的責任"},{"start":204.418,"end":223.016,"text":"那我就問你們這段期間督導了什麼從8月9號他記兩大過免職之後到底地方政府回報你們什麼訊息而這當中中央政府又督導了地方什麼事項有召開任何的相關專家會議檢討這麼重大的事項嗎"},{"start":226.84,"end":254.54,"text":"因為他不是只有這個高雄會發生今天高雄發生這樣一個事件那你要有機制你要去檢討確保其他的體系其他的縣市類似的不要發生而且你們應該要預警應該要告訴其他縣市說高雄已經爆發這麼重大的他是新衛中心的執密但是他違法去調閱資料所以要提醒大家在個資方面權限方面應該要落實"},{"start":255.521,"end":280.804,"text":"我看這些你們通通都沒有做你們是整個高雄市政府就蓋牌然後讓你中央也沒有插手是這樣子嗎還是你們知道之後你們沒有善盡督導的責任跟委員說明我們近期知道這個完整的面貌之後也召開過會議所以你們也是近期才知道那地方有沒有沒有通報的沒有完整跟中央通報的獅子的責任"},{"start":281.885,"end":292.396,"text":"不過就整個程序來講如何去精進這個地方跟中央的資訊的這個通報流通我們會在後面再繼續檢討我們目前先檢討的是對這個資訊的權限因為這裡面我具體要求"},{"start":298.742,"end":318.321,"text":"這個部長你們中央應該要立刻召開一個專案會議這個專案會議兩個目的第一個徹底去檢討整個高雄市政府他在整個處理的過程包括我剛剛講是非常嚴重的你既然8月9號這個人就兩大過免職結果衛生局沒有跟進去開拔"},{"start":318.942,"end":337.681,"text":"然後呢也沒有去公告姓名你足足延宕了四個半月這一點一定要究責而且要去了解為什麼是這樣子是不是有人在掩蓋相關的資訊就是不想讓這個資訊出來第二個才是你講的這件事情涉及到的是其他的這一些個管系統它的這個安全性"},{"start":338.402,"end":353.95,"text":"然後他的權限都應該要徹底的從這個事件當中從頭再來檢討而且要讓其他縣市政府知道這件事情我覺得是不可思議爆發這麼重大的事件沒有檢討會議也沒有去示警其他的縣市然後這個懲處又這麼的緩慢"},{"start":356.411,"end":381.098,"text":"我真的認為這個局長早就該下台了這是掩蓋啊這就是完全沒有處理啊那他現在對外講的簽字文說哎呀他是為了保護被害人這個藉口太廉價保護被害人是所有的法令規定我們都會做到的事情但是跟你好好徹底去嚴懲這一個人相關的懲處到位這個是應該要去跟上的事情啊沒有跟上啊"},{"start":383.279,"end":399.471,"text":"這個檢討會議我們已經啟動了那麼對整個系統性的來做檢討那包含雖然這個權限是由各地方政府去指定不過我們要有一個一致性的規範然後讓這個最少揭露原則的方式來做這個"},{"start":400.511,"end":420.168,"text":"你也要檢討地方政府整個的處理我很明確的指出來社會局他延宕了四個半月才懲處這個就是疏失而這個人到現在還有社公司的證照這個也是疏失整個行政程序處理上面是沒有跟上的這個都是有問題的"},{"start":421.149,"end":425.792,"text":"最後我要問這次的何家屬再給我一分鐘何家屬的這個部分我們希望就是這個部分多聽一下這個兒少團體的意見他們在這個相關的組織希望可以有更有未來性我希望這個衛福部還要再開一個公聽會正式的聽大家的意見好不好好 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謝謝主席 有請次長好 次長教委好"},{"start":15.578,"end":39.944,"text":"次長好我們知道106年的時候偏鄉條例偏校條例的就已經上路了那現在已經到8年的時間了那這部分我們看到他的確有很多的實行上的困難當然我也知道說剛才次長他說的是沒有錯在我們看到現在這個資料顯示出來他的這個國小國中這部分的尤其是國小的地方他的這個"},{"start":43.306,"end":56.413,"text":"流動力是有在下降但是事實上不管如何都可以看到是這個偏校的流動率都是比一般的學校地區要高嘛那特別是到有些你看到100以國中來講的話是到110到120年的時候他甚至達到兩倍的情況"},{"start":62.176,"end":82.901,"text":"那這個部分就會考慮到是說有做但是效果還是尤其在國中部分是非常的嚴重的那這邊就是要請教的是市長就在說這個問題怎麼樣的去處理就是說我們現在看到的是你有9任獎金那每年我看到的是教育部提供了40億的預算"},{"start":84.881,"end":106.112,"text":"那流動率這麼高的原因我們看到求任獎金他現在要求是偏鄉的老師呢服務要滿8年才給第一次的這樣的獎金但是剛才也聽到的事實上我們看到的是目前呢在偏鄉地區的老師呢他該留任的情況是4到5年那除非是公費的那不然的話根本就拿到不到這個獎金那包括第二次的呢"},{"start":106.932,"end":120.184,"text":"第二次的獎金到服務老11年你們在算定有任獎金的這樣的一個機制是怎麼樣去算出來的是不是要重新去計算不然沒辦法達到這個效果"},{"start":121.056,"end":147.272,"text":"我想是有達到效果一定的效果當然委員都希望說能夠更加會的層面能夠更廣但細節的考慮我們是不是請署長來做一個回答好 請署長剛剛還提到考慮8年 11年這一類的數字第一個剛剛委員也有平均到譬如說離島建設條例是6年剛剛一般而言平均會到4至6年有些平均5年"},{"start":147.992,"end":172.323,"text":"那這個如果按照一般的平均那就是沒有辦法視為9任是所以第一點8年的決定有一點是按照委員會的討論之後8年算是適當那應該是修改囉但是如果未來在檢視的過程中隨著時代的變遷各種地方包含一般跟偏鄉它的這個誘因拉力已經變化這些我們都可以再檢討"},{"start":173.944,"end":191.893,"text":"那你們是三年之內檢討嗎我們的三年會檢討一次啦但是每年都在召開分區的會議那有各種那像委員在立法院我們這邊提的我們當然會列入考慮就希望說這邊的年次的這個結果就是每年都能夠提供到教育委員會來是可以嗎可以"},{"start":192.213,"end":220.511,"text":"好謝謝那我們繼續再往下看呢就出現到的是另外呢就是說有很多的這樣的一些獎勵啦有看到到說包括有這個變成吧鼓勵變成是正式教師嘛對不對就是源而這樣下去但是我們看到的是教師的這個專業的部分因為現在很多的教師呢他是並不是就是正式的這個教師那他留下來是他反而是有願景想要留下來但是他沒有這樣的師資沒有這樣的合格的教師證"},{"start":221.371,"end":238.037,"text":"或是說它尤其在偏鄉地區那這部分我們看到是說這些施培的進修的課程都集中在六都舟車勞頓才收得到那當然我也希望說問到是說它是不是有線上的課程它目前的休課狀況還有偏鄉的實體分布如果還在六都的話他們在屏東怎麼可能到"},{"start":239.117,"end":260.249,"text":"到台高雄或者是說你到花蓮你要到哪裡去上課這部分是不是有一個這樣的一個實際上面的數據跟我們來說明一下謝謝委員的關心其實您提到這個在我們偏鄉條例上路之後其實很多地方也都在反映所以我們現在其實類似的那個師培大學其實已經開設到你剛才提到屏東的這個屏東大學也有"},{"start":263.01,"end":286.37,"text":"那像东区的在台湾东部的东华大学也有那像这个南台科大也有就是我们现在其实连云林都有开可是如果在原住民区区怎么办当然那个地方那没办法事实上那线上课程呢我们现在其实有线上远距而且那个远距的那个比例也慢慢在放宽到二分之一的结束是可以用远距来上课是承认的对"},{"start":286.75,"end":306.212,"text":"所以这个比例是不是可以给本席我们其实一直在做弹性的调整也跟我们开课的这些大学一起去研商当然有考虑到整个进修的这个品质那目前为止已经就是刚才跟委员报告的已经到了50%他可以在线上来修习这个学分"},{"start":307.253,"end":331.696,"text":"好 如果教育部有做的話我們必須要看到相關的資料因為這樣才可以知道說可以 我們會有可以提供給委員好 謝謝那另外的部分就在於說偏鄉的條件不好的部分在於說生活條件尤其是在交通的補助這一部分那我們有看到是說每年給了在實際上的補助一年應該是有到三億嗎"},{"start":333.881,"end":338.818,"text":"每個學校大概有40大概有 我看一下"},{"start":340.442,"end":368.064,"text":"每個學校的話是三 設備的話是三年兩百萬那如果交通補助的部分呢是是有在交通可進性的部分呢應該是有幾 應該有二十萬 二十五萬二十五萬那這部分就是說 就是在交通補助的因為是屬於生活條件的部分那包括交通補助這邊有沒有實際上面是對 你們當初有個規劃是如果公車可以到了一公里的地方的話你們就不予補助到他的這個交通費嘛"},{"start":368.544,"end":397.018,"text":"那這部分是不是有在因為他公車到了但是他並不是全時的24小時都有那怎麼樣的去因呼應到他真正讓他拿得到這些交通補助跟委員補充兩點那老師的類似這種教學交通的福利我們不要用這種公車這種射算太複雜了我們用學期學年用整學期給他2000 4000這一類的算法"},{"start":397.538,"end":417.396,"text":"比较完善那也比较少行政的复课第二点是我们加盖宿舍整修宿舍让老师不用多花那么多的住宿费用那也可以就近就在学校教学所以两项措施在去年年底都已经发布了那最近如果有一些成效我定期跟赵伟再回报"},{"start":417.836,"end":435.904,"text":"好 因為這個部分我想不是說給教育委員會或是我個人本席而是這個部分應該是要定期的公開在教育部的網站上面說你們對偏鄉的學校的發展照顧這一部分包括的是交通的補助然後包括是在宿舍的達成因為我們知道"},{"start":436.744,"end":454.407,"text":"一天的時候到 前幾天到宜蘭去看的時候就是學校裡面竟然是有宿舍有蓋出來不錯但是裡面的設備並沒有很完善這部分就請教育部這邊要去把共定期公告讓一般的民眾或是說教師他們就知道說學校教育部真的有在做這些事情好 我們會持續來做"},{"start":455.268,"end":470.687,"text":"好 那另外的部分我再提到是我們本黨或者是說這個部分也包括了是郭剛才所說相對於就是剛才我說的交通可靜性生活機能跟社會經濟客觀的條件的部分應該你們都有在做嘛那可是三年的部分我看到是113年到115年有時候學校有1000多將近1200多學校嘛"},{"start":474.332,"end":488.186,"text":"那你們這部分是不是也有定期的說我們本辦就看到說你們只有學校數字可是對全部的相關的這個整體的報告公開性 開放性好像不夠這不是不是可以也在網上就做公告呢"},{"start":489.131,"end":509.894,"text":"我们相关的资料都会在统计没有区分到那么细但是一个整体的数据里面都可以看得出来整体的教育统计年报里面其实有些哪些是属于偏乡学校非三非四它里面的那个师资源的配置学生人数等等都有都可以能够拿出来讨论"},{"start":510.675,"end":530.133,"text":"但是没有一个专门所以是偏乡地区我想我建议在特别在针对偏乡地区因为这个部分也是因为教育的为国本的那偏乡地区现在占到我们选个全部学校的数字应该占到三分之一嘛那这个这样的一个高数字的话也呈现到说我们对于学校的在每个地方都没有在做放弃离岛跟偏乡的地区都是很重要的"},{"start":530.453,"end":548.448,"text":"那另外呢 另外也要了解一下這個有關於本黨的一個意見就是說版本裡面對偏鄉的學校的這個自辦甄選跟禁用代理教室這邊那教育部這邊還是證據說還是用地方政府你們給本就是說書面報告當中是常常所謂的地方政府那對於在"},{"start":549.108,"end":575.226,"text":"對於給到學校自辦甄選這個方式你們覺得是說 事實上你們在做的是在減少學校自己的行政負擔嗎但是如果說一個地方政府 你看屏東的從北邊到南邊這麼跨 這麼大概有大概一百多公里的這樣的一個相近到 就非常長的距離這個部分這個是不是也可以考慮到二選一或是怎麼樣的情況是針對這邊在提供你們的答案"},{"start":575.706,"end":576.811,"text":"這個是有彈性的 是有彈性的嗎 馮署長"},{"start":581.892,"end":610.872,"text":"委員我先跟您報告也澄清一下一百零六年設計專聘老師但是時到現在最近四年縣市都用正式老師會比較安定當地的實質穩定所以這兩年已經禁用了一萬人這四年禁用了兩萬人所以專聘老師這一個制度我們能夠盡量協助但地方政府想到他就直接聘正式因為專聘畢竟是代理"},{"start":611.192,"end":628.417,"text":"我知道我現在的問題剛才我也聽到我現在的問題是說如果他自辦甄選就直接就當他有這個名額就誰是議員所以第二點是委員如果在剛才的前提確認下還要要求或是希望地方政府你來辦代理老師即便是專聘2加2加2加6"},{"start":629.477,"end":655.098,"text":"这个对地方的整体考量我们会尊重它不会去强制它你非办不可因此下一层次它要怎么办那会是地方政府它整体的考虑它会优先想到是正式的正式的好 这样的部分呢我想给了一个非常方向正确的一个处理那我们这边之后有这样的相关的在法律上面的一个修订的时候我们就来再做讨论好 谢谢李书专的一个说明谢谢"}]}},{"id":"166865","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166865","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f1c900187fbaa2235781827afd94ae33312e0cc7d569d16880517bbc9abd8d9385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:53:05 - 09:57:03","影片長度":"00:03:58","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:53:05+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:57:03+08:00","duration":238,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.80284375,"end":3.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.199093749999999,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.37409375,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.32721875,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.94659375,"end":29.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.16971875,"end":36.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.85221875,"end":37.915343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.42159375,"end":42.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.58971875,"end":45.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.58909375,"end":49.643468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.149718750000005,"end":52.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.03534375,"end":58.080968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.604093750000004,"end":60.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.51096875,"end":63.109718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.81846875,"end":85.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.17784375000001,"end":88.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.63721875,"end":98.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.58096875000001,"end":104.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.80784375,"end":107.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.55846875,"end":115.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.73846875000001,"end":127.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.28096875,"end":133.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.47846875000002,"end":136.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.51596875,"end":146.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.01221875000002,"end":157.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.49159375000002,"end":163.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.73534375,"end":171.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.86909375000002,"end":184.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.21721875,"end":191.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.98409375,"end":198.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.91971875000002,"end":200.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.87721875000003,"end":201.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.07534375,"end":211.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.37346875,"end":223.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.64159375000003,"end":227.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.29909375000003,"end":234.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.01534375000003,"end":235.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.98534375000003,"end":238.96409375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.823,"end":26.081,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好台灣民眾黨黨團提出國家安全法第七條 第八條及第八條之一修正草案 出發點只有一個就是補破網 補漏洞 真正提升國家安全的嚇阻力"},{"start":27.028,"end":48.734,"text":"一 現行國安法行動設計無法反映威脅程度的差異實際上 洩密對象如果是外國與洩密對象是大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力 其對國"},{"start":53.406,"end":80.646,"text":"我國國家安全民主制度以社會穩定造成的風險顯然並不相同但現行法制卻長期採取同一套的刑度處罰等於在法律上忽視了敵對勢力對我國造所造成的結構性系統性威脅"},{"start":83.309,"end":87.538,"text":"嚇阻效果自然不足因此本黨在"},{"start":89.707,"end":115.638,"text":"第7條與第8條的修正中明確區分洩密或滲透的行為的對象屬性對於涉及大陸地區與境外敵對勢力者設計更高的刑度與罰金上限目的不是"},{"start":116.798,"end":122.703,"text":"擴張刑法而是讓法律能夠如實反映國安風險的層級差異第二制度性失守比個案犯罪更危險在多起共謀案件中我們看到的一個嚴重的問題依法本應辦理的公務人員特殊查核"},{"start":147.499,"end":151.843,"text":"卻未被執行但即便機關首長或主管機關明確代呼職者現行法制卻完全沒有任何處罰的規定"},{"start":164.2,"end":184.331,"text":"這代表國安系統中最關鍵的事前防線一旦失靈法則視而不見這才是真正的制度勒動因此我們增訂第八條之一針對為依法辦理"},{"start":185.251,"end":195.759,"text":"特殊查核者刻意明確的行政與行事責任目的不是原則基層而是要求制度負責職權相輔最後我們要強調這不是政黨對立的問題而是"},{"start":208.608,"end":235.582,"text":"國家安全的底線的問題提出這一項修法不是為了標籤誰而是為了讓國安法制度真正的具備真實感比例原則與有效的嚇阻力敬請大家支持補強國安法制的必要修正謝謝大家"},{"start":237.995,"end":238.968,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166848","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166848","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f435e5125b448e28191c86f757800299012e0cc7d569d1688fbd852016b6b286a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:26:17 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這個案子也經過我們部的相關霸凌處理程序完成也配合監察院的調查提供了相關的資料我們會對監察院所提出來的相關對我們這個程序當中應該要在盡盡的地方我們去進行檢討"},{"start":478.004,"end":492.034,"text":"那不過目前這個進度上呢他已經進入在司法的程序過程當中所以繼續護航下去就對了嘛我們會配合整個司法的程序來進行什麼叫配合整個司法的程序那監察院都彈劾勒"},{"start":493.015,"end":509.385,"text":"他現在是移送懲戒法院是當然嘛 那個是懲戒法院嘛那個是依照公務員服務法公務員懲戒法相關的規範嘛現在你作為部長我只要一個清楚的答案是不是打算繼續護航下去讓他當司長"},{"start":510.871,"end":530.438,"text":"智或不是就好了 台灣社會會公平智或不是就好了我們會秉持公平公正的方式來處理這個案子所以 你會不會讓他繼續當市長這個叫公平公正 這個叫高規格調查這個叫官官相護啦 這個叫官官相護啊我再說一次 這個叫官官相護啊連監察院都彈劾勒"},{"start":537.04,"end":563.394,"text":"今天還站在這邊繼續包庇喔基層的公務員 部長很有氣魄馬上撤銷 司長 這我們自己人怎麼可以拔掉他司長監察院認定霸凌我繼續讓他當司長這就是衛福部的態度喔跟委員說明 我們絕對勿往勿縱是 現在監察院 連監察院都打臉你們高規格調查報告了你還站在這邊講勿往勿縱你不覺得丟臉嗎"},{"start":567.113,"end":572.945,"text":"你不覺得丟臉嗎我們依據證據做所有的處分對得起那些被霸凌的精神員工嗎好 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:22:10+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:34:17+08:00","duration":727,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.18971875,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.45534375,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.33221875,"end":61.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.65971875,"end":28.144718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.14784375000001,"end":80.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.45971875000001,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.87721875,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.15471875,"end":72.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.17159375,"end":72.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.96784375,"end":86.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.81971875,"end":83.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.60409375,"end":145.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.03846875,"end":90.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.52721875,"end":92.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.23596875,"end":205.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.68659375000001,"end":228.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.07534375,"end":244.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.43159375000002,"end":247.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.97534375,"end":253.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.52284375000002,"end":271.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.44409375000004,"end":274.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.77284375,"end":275.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":274.87409375000004,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.71659375,"end":287.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.23534375,"end":301.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.97534375000004,"end":305.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.18596875000003,"end":305.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.73846875000004,"end":305.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.85659375,"end":307.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.59471875,"end":308.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.01659375,"end":315.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.72846875000005,"end":316.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.09971875,"end":317.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.71971875,"end":328.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.67159375,"end":330.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.25784375,"end":337.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.50659375000004,"end":334.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.56909375000004,"end":342.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.32346875,"end":342.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.34034375000005,"end":346.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.40784375000004,"end":342.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.38659375000003,"end":358.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.85846875000004,"end":348.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.39284375,"end":359.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.23659375,"end":374.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.29096875000005,"end":361.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.64784375000005,"end":376.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.78659375,"end":397.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.63034375,"end":376.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.38909375000003,"end":381.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.60846875000004,"end":381.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.89534375000005,"end":382.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.23284375000003,"end":382.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.30034375,"end":382.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.36784375,"end":382.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.97534375000004,"end":384.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.92284375,"end":395.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.65659375,"end":400.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","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謝謝有請張廖次長"},{"start":16.6,"end":44.519,"text":"委員好教育部之前有宣布終於有看到老師的需求有提高一點老師費謝謝委員的建議還有行政加急另外就是終點費這個當然我們是支持的但是當然還是覺得不夠還有衍生出幾個面向跟你討論一下第一個是終點費的部分因為現在增加的是兼任待課教師的終點費"},{"start":45.714,"end":60.942,"text":"那對於那些正式老師他沒有做行政職也沒有做導師的實際上是有增加他的成本因為他如果請假要找代課老師的話他付的那個代課費用也會比較高這個次長你當初有想到這個狀況嗎"},{"start":62.396,"end":79.617,"text":"這應該不是你的本意啦也不會是希望說增加兼課帶課教師的動力費卻讓正式老師在請假的時候必須付比較高的成本因為可能跟大家想不一樣大家不知道說這個錢其實是老師出啦不是教育不是學校出啦是老師出所以確實就是老師是有增加成本"},{"start":80.978,"end":101.534,"text":"這是其中一個面向啦譬如說他如果是那個工價啦或者之類的我知道他如果是病假或是試假他帶課費當然就要提高嘛那我覺得這不是教育部的本意那上一次喔我在十月中的時候當時是部長來其實我有提供一個建議啦就是讓"},{"start":102.615,"end":113.46,"text":"所有的學校的老師可以減兩個小時的終點因為國小是20個小時一個禮拜國中是18 高中是16當時是可以建議說如果減兩個終點這其實有個好處第一個"},{"start":117.802,"end":145.404,"text":"因為現在老師108課綱的關係所以他又要讓學生自主學習又多元教學其實增加很多時間成本譬如說他要準備很多教材還要影印這些成本其實教育部都看不到所以你如果減兩個小時可以讓他更多備課的時間然後可以對每個學生有更多時間可以去照顧這是減時間的部分如果假設他"},{"start":146.645,"end":164.765,"text":"要去代課的話幫人家代課現在剛好教育部你的那個終點費提高了嘛所以他代課的話他等於他加班費也變多嘛所以其實我一直覺得說這個減兩個小時的政策是可以推動可是後來教育部因為我是10月提的教育部後來回我一個報告說不可行啦"},{"start":165.265,"end":179.193,"text":"但不可行的理由我是不太能接受第一個理由是說因為現在的基本教學的結束配置穩定如果再調降的話就會沒有辦法足夠校內師資授課不是啦 這個就是你要增加員額的問題嘛"},{"start":180.974,"end":203.675,"text":"這就是增加緣額增加緣額這個點在你們給我的報告的第四點的相關配套裡面就有講說你們會透過能力補足的方式來解決所以代表說你回覆我減兩個小時終點不可行的這個理由你就自打臉這第一件事情第二個是講第二個說不可行的理由是說"},{"start":205.851,"end":227.44,"text":"如果說教師要增加每週超時授課結束的話會沒有辦法有效減輕教師工作負擔那我覺得這個就是老師自己的選擇嘛就是說我們先讓他們每一個人減兩小時那如果有的老師他願意去幫人家帶課然後可以領那個超經貼的超時經貼嘛這就是他的選擇啊"},{"start":229.141,"end":253.435,"text":"因此減兩個小時實際上我覺得可以達到第一個減輕老師負擔第二個如果老師要去幫人家帶課的話那配合教育部你現在提高終點這樣的一個措施他的加分費有提高啊所以這是一個可行的政策啦我希望教育部你們再去研議一下不要每一次好像我們提供意見因為有的時候我們的意見也是有中很多老師的"},{"start":254.588,"end":271.32,"text":"的想法像你們可能不知道老師其實現在工作真的是很繁重有時候要改作業 改作文 改週記然後改成績 改作業改作文到半夜還有很多行政作業要寫表單 要寫評鑑工作真的是很多"},{"start":272.721,"end":286.495,"text":"這個部分是不是你在我想委員關心的方向其實跟之前也有教室團體提出說要降低班級人數也是一個方向我講的不是降低班級人數減瘦時數當然也是一種這個都涉及到"},{"start":289.097,"end":316.993,"text":"這個整個大家關心整個教師的那個教學負擔啦各方面的負擔這個要一個要全盤的來考慮啦譬如說你現在降低那個時數那那個會增加費用支出嘛那過去這個費用支出上一次我有跟部長講我幫他也算過了大概就是增加20億左右那你知道你知道那個在前幾個月你們有送來一個任性報告光高教特別預算就變200億啊你覺得高教"},{"start":317.833,"end":327.888,"text":"很危險 所以要提高韌性變成兩百億那現在國教的問題就是老師的問題嘛 缺老師嘛所以你要改善那個老師的教學環境嘛"},{"start":328.789,"end":357.02,"text":"才20億而已啊十分之一而已你就覺得很多了你就覺得捨不得了但是高校200億你就覺得哎呀 沒有什麼現在高中以下其實很大的一部分除了國立學校以外是屬於地方的學校所以它增加的費用市長市長我跟你講因為今天我沒有要跟你吵那個中央地方啦我覺得因為教育部是主要的政策制定者嘛就像之前說要提高導師費還有就是行政加急也是由教育部來宣布嘛"},{"start":357.54,"end":373.6,"text":"我們這個有找地方但是你們就是要去找地方所以我現在跟你提出嘛那你們去找地方嘛對 財源部分看怎麼分配但是這個事情我覺得該做所以希望你們先確定政策方向然後再去討論說這財源怎麼分配啦好不好 這個你們再研議一下"},{"start":374.341,"end":400.037,"text":"當然都是各種建議嘛我們都會你不能每一個人給你很多建議不同建議但是你就說要通盤考量通盤考量就一件事都沒做嘛不會啦對不對不會一件事那我現在就真的我的建議你們再給我一個再重新再評估一下然後第二個就是行政加息你們現在是有給工作行政工作獎金是一千到兩千嘛請問一下你們預計會增加多少預算這個 來署長來說明一下好不好這一個"},{"start":404.922,"end":431.676,"text":"如果是就全年來講是增加5億多增加5億多7千6百萬左右全年增加5億多好那我跟你講好不好你現在加1千到2千實際上還是不夠啦還是不夠因為你現在導資費增加但行政加給只加1千到2千會讓很多學校更找不到行政人員會更找不到行政人員這個我不知道你有沒有跟一些校長主任聊過"},{"start":434.028,"end":448.896,"text":"所以我是建議你先生價值應該要加到五千左右那你剛剛講說一千到兩千大概是增加五億嘛所以如果你加到五千的話大概是乘以二點五就是差不多十二億"},{"start":450.985,"end":465.13,"text":"12.5億嘛其實你應該要再多編12.5億讓那個導師費讓行政加給可以更高啦這個你也去評估一下我現在講的相較於高教都是小錢啦因為高教特別預算就200億啊國教你看我剛剛講20億加上這個12.5億才32.5億啊"},{"start":468.69,"end":495.865,"text":"我們會持續評估這個是一個嚴重的問題我建議你們去跟學校的校長主任聊一下這個措施你們之前的措施會不會造成更找不到行政人員還有第三個因為今天講的是偏鄉學校偏鄉學校現在有一個措施是讓沒有教師證的代理老師可以在如果他有五年的年資的話可以讓他去修教育學程學分班對吧"},{"start":497.867,"end":512.105,"text":"其实我觉得一般的非偏乡学校比如说市区学校的代理教师也一样有这样的需求因为我有听过非常多代理教师他是市区的他可能已经代理接近十年了有的八年有的九年他对教育很有热忱"},{"start":513.146,"end":532.467,"text":"但是每次都提心吊膽因為沒有教師證的代理老師要等到學校三招以後才有機會進到學校你第一招第二招都是要有教師證招不到第三招才是可以招無教師證但現在有很多沒有教師證的代理老師所以"},{"start":535.424,"end":551.161,"text":"有沒有那麼可能就比照偏鄉學校讓這些沒有教師證市區的代理老師他有累積一定年資也可以讓他去修教育學程的學分班因為現行的制度對他們來說我覺得是"},{"start":552.557,"end":573.793,"text":"比較困難點在於說第一個他們可能有經濟的壓力嘛你要他把不要去當代理老師回到學校去修碩士博士再兼教育學程這個機會成本很高啦第二個如果是在職專班的話其實學費他也許根本不想要讀碩士博士對不對但是他為了要修教育學程所以付這個學費去修這個學位"},{"start":575.914,"end":596.224,"text":"所以能不能就是像偏鄉一樣就是提供讓他們你找一些我相信有些大學願意開這樣的課程啊在寒暑假啊然後一些教育學程的學分啊讓他們去修那你也可以訂一個年資對不對比如說幾年嘛四年五年那為什麼要訂這個年資呢因為這個代表說他真的很熱愛這個教學環境"},{"start":597.847,"end":612.878,"text":"然後第二個是現在學校很多學校就是缺老師啊如果沒有缺老師不會開到三招四招五招嘛對吧所以其實我覺得對現行的制度也不會做什麼排擠啦這個我不知道次長能不能"},{"start":613.843,"end":640.199,"text":"這個方向其實我以為你說的就是我們偏鄉會這樣開是因為它增加誘因在偏鄉服務那假如說我們把這個誘因又放到一般的地區裡面去讓這些代理老師有這個管道的話那整個失陪制度的這種設計可能也會有一些衝擊因為我剛剛講的那些代理老師他就是我剛剛講的那些代理老師他就是市區的你就算你不讓他有這個機會修那個學問班他也不會到偏鄉啊"},{"start":641.219,"end":663.883,"text":"更何況現在雙北很多市區的學校也都缺代理老師啊我們上次也看到台北市台北市總不能說偏鄉了吧台北市的代理老師都到四十幾招啦所以市區的問題現在也要解決啊但是多數的這個代理教師其實是有教師證的啦那 多數嘛 可是如果多數的都有教師證的話那怎麼會 很多學校都要三招以上"},{"start":665.105,"end":670.562,"text":"當然我們有一些稀缺類科也會開學士候學分班不限於偏遠地區什麼時候開"},{"start":672.428,"end":673.428,"text":"就多找一些大學嘛對啊"},{"start":696.933,"end":724.112,"text":"我相信大學會願意開啦那之前的培育量我們也必須考那委員的我們會滾動來做思考好 謝謝那最後一個問題你們有提到說那個幼教幼教的那個教保費也會提高嘛從2000到3000你們什麼時候會實施這個已經在研議他要修要點他一樣會追溯到這個學年9月1號會追溯到這個學年就對了那大概什麼時候要點會修在1月會修完1月會修完 謝謝"},{"start":728.515,"end":729.055,"text":"好 谢谢"}]}},{"id":"166839","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166839","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fdc6a311374f5a65201bb1e1b9e929a6112e0cc7d569d1688388debce7e7cfb5a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"09:04:28 - 09:10:37","影片長度":"00:06:09","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:04:28+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:10:37+08:00","duration":369,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.286593750000002,"end":166.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.36346875,"end":334.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.01221875000005,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.70784375,"end":352.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.34284375000004,"end":359.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.70471875000004,"end":361.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.65784375000004,"end":362.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.29909375,"end":367.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.36159375,"end":369.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.04909375,"end":370.67346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.317,"end":27.269,"text":"大家早安今天我有提出偏鄉地區學校教育發展條例的修正最主要是想要誠實面對一個事實這部條例已經嚴重脫離偏鄉教育的一個實際現場"},{"start":28.71,"end":51.258,"text":"怎麼說呢因為這部法從106年施行到今天花了大量的篇幅設計了一個所謂的專聘教師制度但實際上全台教師這個專聘的人數是零那制度存在在條文裡面可是卻從未真正的被使用"},{"start":51.998,"end":78.327,"text":"這就說明這個制度的設計有了問題所以我的第一個修法重點針對的是人才在偏鄉的第一線真正撐住教學現場的是由學校自行申選長期續聘的代理教師但是現行的條例只有保障主管機關公開申選的代理教師而所謂的主管機關公開申選"},{"start":79.927,"end":105.498,"text":"全台只有澎湖實際的辦理那造成了絕大多數的代理教師被排除在偏鄉條例之外所以我的修法把各校自辦甄選的代理教師正式的納入條例保障並且明文讓表現良好的老師不受次數限制的續聘讓學校可以穩定用人"},{"start":106.078,"end":127.471,"text":"也讓代理老師不必年年被迫離開熟悉的孩子跟社區第二個修法重點是讓在地的人才有制度性的培育路徑現在偏鄉學士候學分班的名額供不應求顯示出很多人願意投入偏鄉但是問題在於"},{"start":128.732,"end":151.534,"text":"自費就讀的門檻反而比補助生還要更高還把大量實際教書的待課年資被排除在外那想要自費就讀偏鄉學士後學分班在偏鄉要服務滿十學期但是偏鄉條例全額補助的對象只要實際服務滿三年四學期"},{"start":152.174,"end":165.809,"text":"所以我的主張是不論補助或自費只要在偏鄉實際服務滿三年四個學期就應該同樣能夠就讀學分班同時代課老師目前不能進修"},{"start":167.441,"end":195.372,"text":"偏鄉學士學分班但是只要符合一定的授課量例如每週十四節的待課老師只要訂出一個合理採集的樓地板鼓勵他們去進修才能夠符合偏鄉的現況達到拉高合格教師比例的目標那我第三個修法重點是偏鄉孩子的學習空間跟建築安全也就是第十二條"},{"start":196.292,"end":219.402,"text":"偏鄉有很多的村里部落它的地形交通限制等等需要設立分班那教學場所呢現行條文雖然允許使用既有合法建築物但是在原住民族地區我們很多的建物因為現實條件要取得完整的合法證明文件有困難"},{"start":220.542,"end":238.659,"text":"結果就是讓孩子被迫的長距離通學要不然就是教學空間卡關那麼最後受影響的是孩子的受教權因此這一次修法希望在不犧牲安全的前提下參考長照機構管理規範"},{"start":239.6,"end":253.67,"text":"新增更符合偏鄉縣市的替代機制也就是合法建物資證明文件得以結構安全鑑定及簡易消防配置圖替代並且每年報主管機關備償"},{"start":255.211,"end":283.305,"text":"也就是說放寬的是文件形式強化的是安全把關讓孩子能夠有安全的教室也讓地方有執行的路徑那最後就是偏鄉九任獎金的公平問題目前九任獎金的發放只限老師但是同樣在校園內的教練護理師社工行政人力等等他們同樣是偏鄉學校"},{"start":285.647,"end":307.146,"text":"所以我們主張一併的納入九任獎勵的對象讓他能夠不論公保老保有一個法源依據那最後針對我一再呼籲的在地人才在地培育教育部應該要考慮跟地方大學合作設立偏鄉師資的培育專班"},{"start":308.307,"end":334.137,"text":"優先錄取在地的青年搭配在地的實習在地的留任就業保障讓偏鄉長出自己的老師那這一次的修法就是希望讓偏鄉教育回到偏鄉的真實樣貌在地人才可以被培育孩子有安全的教室投入的人能夠被留下來被尊重敬請大家支持 謝謝"},{"start":339.738,"end":367.08,"text":"好 謝謝武力華委員的提案說明那現場的委員人數已達三人那請問現場的委員對於議事錄有沒有意見 有沒有異議沒有 那好 那我們達到議決人數三人那也沒有異議 那就議事錄就確定了好 那現在想要請武力華委員 是不是可以麻煩你一下下就是我要做提案說明"},{"start":368.442,"end":370.765,"text":"喔好,那這樣子,不然那個"}]}},{"id":"166854","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166854","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f9225cb97c1e4d5f2781827afd94ae33312e0cc7d569d16881345feb9e96ac4965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:24:02 - 09:27:44","影片長度":"00:03:42","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:24:02+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:27:44+08:00","duration":222,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.5834687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.4778437500000003,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":13.345343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.851593750000003,"end":20.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.820968750000002,"end":26.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.828468750000003,"end":31.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.430968750000005,"end":45.205343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.509093750000005,"end":64.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.81409375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.36034375,"end":81.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.85784375,"end":82.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.00534375000001,"end":87.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.73034375,"end":97.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.97346875000001,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.35659375,"end":106.59659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.81596875000001,"end":120.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.94034375000001,"end":123.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.83846875,"end":133.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.86659375000002,"end":159.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.95534375,"end":161.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.14909375000002,"end":189.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.31346875,"end":214.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.49096875,"end":218.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.81534375,"end":219.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.28346875000003,"end":221.36346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":9.14,"text":"主席 各位同仁今天我想用一個理性負責任的態度來討論這一次國安法的修正案"},{"start":10.236,"end":30.707,"text":"我們必須強調國家安全是重要的但是如果國家安全的定義已經模糊到可以用來吞噬人民的言論自由那這部法律本身就已經構成另外一種的國安風險這讓我想起到美國政治史上非常有名的麥卡錫主義"},{"start":32.686,"end":54.561,"text":"麥卡錫主義呢 並非是單一參議員的個人行為而是一整套由反共恐慌 政治操作 媒體煽動跟制度失靈所構成的時代氛圍我們沒有想到說在美國居然連Charlie Chaplin查柏林都因為被麥卡錫主義而被迫離開自由的美國"},{"start":55.422,"end":78.74,"text":"那我們就知道連在自由的典範裡面都有可能發生這樣的事情的時候我們所有民主國家應該引以為戒尤其在修法的時候而麥卡錫主義最大的冤屈不在於抓錯了幾個人而是在於他用國家安全之名系統性的犧牲了言論自由思想自由正當法律程序跟無罪推定"},{"start":79.46,"end":95.759,"text":"因此以下我有五個疑問第一點條文界限模糊人民如何知道什麼不能說首先我們先來看今年修正的第二條條文規定任何人不得為外國大陸香港澳門或境外敵對勢力發起贊助參與"},{"start":98.081,"end":123.391,"text":"足以危害國家安定或社會安定的組織或行為那我就想就叫行政院一個普通人民如果只是評論兩岸政策質疑政府作為轉一篇你不喜歡的文章什麼時候會被認定為足以危害國家安全之餘界限在哪裡 標準是什麼是看動機 內容 還是看你喜不喜歡"},{"start":124.898,"end":132.167,"text":"如果連法律本身都說不清楚要人民如何自處難道每天發文之前先猜猜看我們行政機關的心聲嗎"},{"start":133.939,"end":160.755,"text":"第二行政機關一手認定一手裁罰那請問言論自由到底在哪裡再來是看這次修訂的第四條條文規定任何人在網路或公共空間以文字影像語言等方法鼓吹倡議或支持境外敵對勢力對我國採取非和平手段就可能被處以十萬到一百萬元的罰款並且是由行政機關裁定那我必須嚴肅的請教"},{"start":162.296,"end":189.595,"text":"什麼是鼓吹 什麼是倡議是新聞報導 學術討論 還是反諷還是單純的轉述國際評論條文完全沒有清楚界限沒有法院的事前檢查沒有明確排除新聞 學術 評論等言論處罰的是言論本身 不是具體行為也不要求直接一級的危害結果這不是防止戰爭啊這是在用行政材料來管制台灣人民的思想"},{"start":190.396,"end":219.214,"text":"第三 寒蟬效應才是對我們民主社會最大的傷害言論自由最可怕的不是被抓 而是不敢說當法律標準不清楚人民就會開始自我審查我要提醒行政院寒蟬效應如果一旦形成是不可逆的如果一部法律必須靠執政者的節制才能不傷害人權那麼代表這部法律本身就寫錯了其實後面還有兩點那等一下我會再要求發言謝謝主席"},{"start":220.265,"end":221.305,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166853","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166853","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f37c12d6a4dd3e769781827afd94ae33312e0cc7d569d1688142f2a7614d0e9965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"09:20:07 - 09:23:44","影片長度":"00:03:37","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:20:07+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:23:44+08:00","duration":217,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.00096875,"end":9.869093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.290968750000001,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.961593750000002,"end":15.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.47159375,"end":21.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.25971875,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.16221875,"end":27.891593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.48221875,"end":39.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.602843750000005,"end":46.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.92659375,"end":87.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.45596875000001,"end":93.50159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.44659375,"end":109.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.58346875000001,"end":138.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.92909375000002,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.49221875,"end":215.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.21221875,"end":217.44846875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.449,"end":27.321,"text":"成心的建議我們今天的召委能夠接受在野黨的建議我們先開公聽會之後再來審查這個重要的條文那麼也希望在內政委員會的委員們也能夠清楚的知道自由言論還有集會結社的自由它是民主社會的基石也是人民對抗權力擴張的最後防線"},{"start":28.762,"end":57.562,"text":"歷史也一再的證明當一個政權開始走向威權第一個要封殺的就是言論自由還有集會結社的自由這兩個一旦被惡意的箝制了之後呢整個社會就會產生連鎖的崩壞而今天現在我們看到執政黨正在透過所謂的修法要直接威脅人民的言論自由還有集會的自由"},{"start":58.582,"end":87.662,"text":"執政黨利用人民對法律還有程序的信任用看似合法的立法程序要去達到實質上不正當的目的要來抹煞民主憲政的基礎當法律不再是保障自由的盾牌而變成打壓異己的棍棒的時候這個社會這個國家也就已經邁入了獨裁的道路"},{"start":88.542,"end":91.845,"text":"如果民進黨你們認為現在我們的國家已經進入了非常的狀況就算是正式的戒嚴至少還必須要公開的宣告還要有明確的程序並且接受國會的監督還要有時效還有邊界"},{"start":109.942,"end":135.803,"text":"現在你們選擇的路是把非常權力偷偷的塞進一般的法律來修正跟未來國安法的解釋之中弱化社會的警覺規避憲法對緊急權力的監督用漸進式的方式甚至可能是永久化的方式來收緊人民的自由讓人民閉嘴不能夠有意義"},{"start":138.965,"end":141.886,"text":"這種用法律形式實際上是在掏空法律保障的權利的行為我要再講一次這正是當年德國納粹走向極權的路徑歷史在這裡會給我們非常嚴峻的警訊"},{"start":158.852,"end":161.576,"text":"所以呢 我要強烈的要求 任何涉及國安 涉及限制人民核心權利的修法必須要經過全民的檢驗 公開的 透明的 召開公平公正的公聽會"},{"start":175.914,"end":177.776,"text":"要完整的公布條文還有影響評估讓全體的台灣的人民百姓清楚知道後果而不是利用民粹利用側翼的美化悄悄的把這個國家慢慢的推向威權的邊緣"},{"start":195.974,"end":198.875,"text":"46年前鄭南榮先生講的一句話請民進黨朋友不要忘記百分之百的言論自由百分之百的集會結社請你們不要墮落到連鄭南榮先生的核心價值給毀壞了 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166852","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166852","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f0f2d81b58b40e64d781827afd94ae33312e0cc7d569d1688142f2a7614d0e9965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:15:57 - 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接下來再進行所謂的條文的審查我覺得這樣子會是更周延的一個做法以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166842","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166842","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f1b290d6f4181035791c86f757800299012e0cc7d569d1688883b0731a2b3b7265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:13:09 - 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:11:03+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:13:03+08:00","duration":120,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.30784375,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.708468750000002,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.480343750000003,"end":44.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.104093750000004,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.612218750000004,"end":92.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.36659375,"end":94.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.93596875,"end":101.34846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.50034375000001,"end":102.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.38596875,"end":105.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.20284375000001,"end":119.86034375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.189,"end":1.411,"text":"共黨黨團做提案說明"},{"start":11.789,"end":34.33,"text":"好 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我們請部長來 請陳部長"},{"start":21.442,"end":41.171,"text":"委員好 部長好部長 我們9月我們的花卉創新園區正式掛牌了 是那現在有一個問題就產生了也是我這一次修法非常重要的一個議題也就是我們整個花卉園區進駐之後我們發現我們目前有68家"},{"start":42.512,"end":61.718,"text":"可是我們自然人體獨資的商號是達40家那如果依照我們整個農業科技園區的設置管理條例它是必須要以公司法組織的對 股份有限公司才有辦法在這裡面那你也知道"},{"start":62.984,"end":81.217,"text":"在我們的後壁蘭花園區我們花卉園區的前身就是後壁蘭花園區這個當時候是我們台南縣縣政府一路規劃然後這些廠商大家的協助才有看到今天這樣的光景我們才有辦法去打國際牌"},{"start":83.018,"end":99.165,"text":"但是因為整個的需求度太高我們當時就希望我們從地方的一個量能可以變成是我們政府中央政府的協助量能所以我們也在111年我們做了由中央農委會來掛牌"},{"start":101.411,"end":114.435,"text":"那一路走到現在今年九月正是因為我們國發會還有我們整個國家計畫的公建計畫核准所以我們變成了四級單位我們的花會園區那麼"},{"start":116.616,"end":138.733,"text":"现在问题来了也是这一次修法的重点所以我们待会会有修正动议就我们要把它修得更完整所以我也同意部长所说的就是说我们要趁这次修法把它修得更完整也就是说目前大家我们的厂商所面临的问题就是他没办法成立公司啊"},{"start":139.474,"end":152.809,"text":"他在第一时间进驻的时候他就是小型的一个私人企业根本就没有公司那你现在让他成为公司他有极度的困难另外一个重点继承的问题"},{"start":153.908,"end":177.405,"text":"继承的问题所以这个对他们是极尽不公平所以我会提修正动因依照我们在整个比较完整性的就是说当然他的继承要以一人因为你好多人也没办法去做确认一人但是呢也就是他们是可以用他们过去的这样的"},{"start":178.326,"end":203.835,"text":"身份然後繼續維持在我們的花卉園區創新園區的這樣的一個條件所以這個修完之後我們就可以改變我們現在他們所擔憂的一些問題否則這段時間應該主任就很清楚這個問題是他們現在最擔心害怕的他們資格受到影響所以我覺得這個部分我們今天應該要趕快過"},{"start":205.276,"end":224.492,"text":"因為已經有問題產生了包括繼承因為剛好父親在這段時間過世沒有辦法繼承如果我們再拖下去他的權力就會受損所以這個部分我們今天在整個修正動議完之後我們希望今天可以快速的讓他通過部長有沒有問題"},{"start":225.846,"end":252.379,"text":"我想沒問題 剛才其實謝謝委員對這個議題的關心因為園區本身過去只有蘭花只有屏東園區它就是從企業進駐的後來蘭花園區併入了以後同樣要用這個社管條例那相對的蘭花園區的屬性跟本來農科園區的屬性是不一樣的所以針對這個獨資跟自然的部分是蘭花園區最主要的一個特質所以我們也非常支持這樣的一個修法"},{"start":252.839,"end":280.408,"text":"那这个修法过了以后农业部刚才的版本又增加的一项就是在修法之前已经有这样的一个事实的话我们也希望能够比照办理对那这样的话就是可以缩集追溯对可以追溯这个也很重要所以我们希望它是一个完整性的尤其就像部长所说的我们当时候我们能够去创这个园区时代背景都不一样是"},{"start":280.988,"end":309.744,"text":"跟屏東的園區跟我們這邊園區是不一樣的所以我們勢必應該要讓我們的所有蘭花業者會安心這樣我們才可以作為兵不然我們原本要讓他們還有條件結果因為這個條件他們要被排擠掉這就是不對的所以我們希望今天趕快去處理這個部分也是我為什麼要趕快去排這個案子的重點因為我們等很久了我們農業部一直沒有版本送進來"},{"start":310.845,"end":327.763,"text":"所以我哪個蛋影響他們的權益太大了因為現在已經問題出現了所以我們希望今天要趕快過然後呢另外我們部長剛剛有講的就是說在整個交易市場的部分這個部分我想部長"},{"start":329.178,"end":354.98,"text":"我們是不是可以這樣來調整討論就是說因為我們希望是穩定整個交易市場不要因為有人的哄抬或是刻意去做所有的管控而造成市場的一個交易不公平或是有哄抬物價的一個問題所以剛剛部長所說的如果以承銷人自然人你那個"},{"start":356.141,"end":379.786,"text":"整个罚还的部分要有一定的一个标准跟认据否则他也没有办法去负担但是对于批发市场是OK的所以如果我们在这个第35条部分我们把它做调整对于批发市场我们应该要有一个重罚如果我们都比照过去对他们根本不痛不痒"},{"start":380.666,"end":409.97,"text":"根本不痛不癢所以如果我們做一個修正針對批發市場我們應該要提高罰款這個OK嗎可以 就像我們農業部建議的版本裡面特別有提到就是違反第14條之一就是違反批發市場的經營者他本身應該要比較重的罰則那對於那個自然人跟承銷人的部分我們希望維持原來的一個罰則因為他跟其他的法規是有橫平性的"},{"start":410.33,"end":439.685,"text":"所以我同意你們的說法所以待會我會提修正動議我們一樣因為大家都知道我們台南是很重要的一個所謂的這個農產品的一個出貨地所以我們很害怕每一次很多的農民都跟我們說其實台北花園我們這裡根本就沒有那個感受所以就表示中間有人剝削了這一塊利益那是誰大家都清楚"},{"start":440.305,"end":462.735,"text":"所以我觉得这一块我们就是要有重罚才能给他们更多的一些约束跟压力这部分没有问题吧没有问题那另外一个部分就是我们国际兰花展又要展开了现在都在筹备了这个部分部长"},{"start":464.461,"end":477.671,"text":"藍花獸 你知道它非常熱門現在我們這個花卉創新園區去年不是你們對嗎 因為我們9月才掛牌嘛 今年是你們"},{"start":479.022,"end":499.273,"text":"都是我們農業部啦對 都農業部但是不一樣現在是四級單位喔過去是我們偉在屏東我們的農業科技園區裡面這一次是你們四級單位喔自己首次喔首次自己主導喔來我們就看可不可以打出一支好的品牌"},{"start":501.325,"end":523.555,"text":"這一支在去年已經有點夯度了 還不是很夯有點夯度了 還不是很夯今年把它做出效果好不好好 我們會全力以赴藍花獸喔 這個部分我對你們期許因為如果能夠有一個非常重要的一個代表性"},{"start":524.793,"end":544.724,"text":"你也知道現在網路它的行是有一個代表性所以如果它可以變成是一個代表性它是不一樣的我們期待喔我們期待首次花卉創新園區我們市集單位這個部分怎麼樣把它做得更好期待 謝謝好 謝謝 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第五條 第八條做修正草案期待能夠增設原住民主健康照顧署"},{"start":81.548,"end":106.614,"text":"那最主要的理由除了那些以外和我們的健康的一些原住民的健康的data散落在各個部會裡面沒有辦法來好好的來利用還有一些我們的經費的一個整合因為我如果只單靠原民會或者是這個3D理導科原住民組理導科我覺得是沒有辦法來呈現或者是說來"},{"start":107.794,"end":131.762,"text":"真正的來處理我們原住民族的健康問題因為實在是落差太大我們常常會覺得是原鄉是我們本島中的離島如果關從恆春半島蘭嶼或者是花東這個區塊我們就很難去從那個科的層級來處理這個事情所以我們我就做了第二條第五條第八條的法律象徵案以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166845","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166845","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fcd30ef80484aa4b45d44f5a94e3adf3512e0cc7d569d16889258d6461fda9c085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:20:08 - 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你的看法呢"},{"start":105.971,"end":124.799,"text":"報告委員我想我們不會對未來的一些的一些的狀況做出任何的預測我們也當然是密切關注到台灣這個資本市場在不管交易量交易比重或是交易上面的一些的現象我們都會加強來關注因為你看那個整個傳產股幾乎"},{"start":127.096,"end":154.463,"text":"真的是很慘因為關稅以後沒有競爭力你說那些傳農產業他們怎麼生存這個真的是現在當下的問題那個主委你有沒有做過相關劇本金融的演習因為你要是AI改天要是說真的泡沫化那整個可以說全面的這個是很嚴重的問題你有沒有做過這樣的一個操作演習"},{"start":155.343,"end":182.331,"text":"其實跟委員報告我想從這個台灣的資本市場從來都不缺乏一些不確定因素的存在我想特別是去年到現在其實我們資本市場經歷過很多的波動剛剛委員提到說我們沒有做過任何演練這是我們工作的一部分我們本來就會針對資本市場所有一些的未來一些狀況做一些適切的這些的準備這些都是我們日常都在做的事情"},{"start":182.742,"end":205.735,"text":"因為現在當下關稅就是很嚴重的一個問題我們沒有競爭力嘛林靜你像包括日本韓國我們幾乎過去很多跟他們相關的產業傳產現在幾乎都沒有辦法生存這是存在眼前最嚴重的事實那個傳產也養很多人那個媒體報導"},{"start":208.749,"end":226.38,"text":"台北股市有一千九百四十七家上市櫃的公司中有六成五 差不多三分之二一千兩百六十三家的股價在年限之下為了避免投資人踩到地雷鼓"},{"start":227.04,"end":240.643,"text":"本席認為金管會要做好監理的把關我請問主委針對流動性低這個股價表現差的這些殭屍個股目前有哪些處理機制"},{"start":242.196,"end":266.533,"text":"报告委员我想刚才提到委员提到就是我想媒体也关注说比如他们也统计的就是在年限以下大概有蛮高的比率三分之二其实我们也看了过去大概十年的资料其实我们最高像107年有来到79.1%最低也来到109年的18%其实这个本来就是一个很大的一个这个比重会随着整个"},{"start":267.273,"end":290.614,"text":"景氣還有股市的漲跌之間有所差異我想這個只是我們看到113年是67%114年是63.5就是各位可以看到它的波幅從18到79其實上都有很大的波動不過這個是整個因為資本市場反映的是投資人對未來市場的整個的預期當然這個比重確實很多人會產生這樣的疑慮"},{"start":292.015,"end":306.356,"text":"剛剛還有提到就是說我們對一些所謂的流動性比較差的那股票其實我們交易所跟櫃買也有啟動我們相關的比如說我們會去做很多的資訊揭露像我也責請我們的櫃買跟交易所"},{"start":307.017,"end":326.693,"text":"然後我們董事長也都在若瑟文也需要我們請他來說明就是怎麼樣去把台灣很多因為在比如說可能投資人沒有注意到的好股票或是這些流動性怎麼樣來促進市場的造勢我想他們都有一個計畫在執行這些事情至於說整個產業結構的問題這不是金管會所能回答的問題主委"},{"start":329.376,"end":354.277,"text":"2026年可能有多少個股被強制退場下市你們有沒有大概就是未雨綢繆先了解一下有沒有其實我們每年大概有少數的股對我們最近因為剛剛那個局長說最近確實沒有看到有這個現象去年當然也有看到有些因為可能個別因素而導致他下市的原因那當然是少數"},{"start":355.748,"end":377.971,"text":"OK 那我想這個部分我們都會密切關注一下資本市場發展的狀況我是希望站在金管會立場你們要未雨綢繆就是讓更多人知道說這個整個股市的狀況這個很多上市櫃公司其實要讓很多這些股民了解是 我想今天那個"},{"start":379.757,"end":391.964,"text":"主委我認為目前當下就是只有AI股在往上爬其他真的是慘兮兮的我是認為說這個部分主要還是關稅的問題不然過去沒有這種狀況這樣的發生"},{"start":398.007,"end":412.741,"text":"那我想今天的題目是引導國內整個資金擴大參與公共建設與策略性的產業那我請問財政部跟金管會是單純的發行公債籌措公共建設的資金是嗎"},{"start":414.784,"end":429.721,"text":"跟委員報告我們吸引民間資金投入公共建設當然有多元管道那也有發行公債的一個方式讓民間有取得資金可以透過這樣公債的管道那當然還有其他民間直接投資的一個管道會不會變成"},{"start":432.332,"end":444.198,"text":"這個山野BOT 海野BOT甚至於什麼都是用BOT的情況發生出資業者後續可能涉及公共建設興建與營運你認為會不會這種狀況"},{"start":449.521,"end":469.151,"text":"对于BOT的案件就是说也不需要再过于的污名化因为提升公共服务的品质加速国家的公共建设是非常重要而透过民间的资金注入那来加速这样的一个建设事实上是政府民间跟大众的民众是三赢的一个局面"},{"start":469.491,"end":493.62,"text":"那個部長因為有關於鼓勵銀行保險業等金融業者參與公共建設的及策略性的產業立法院法治局也提醒說舉債應避免債留子孫及違反世代正義為原則如果自償性公共建設評估沒有做好何時的認定可能會造成潛在性的這些債務的風險"},{"start":495,"end":514.466,"text":"那我請問部長甘金管會目前有哪些這個標準或審查機制來助益各級政府推動永續這個債券發行會不會有中央故意在審查機制上刁難地方甚至延宕地方的政府推動永續債券發行的狀況發生會不會"},{"start":518.203,"end":530.901,"text":"对于有关发行债券来投资公建那其实是让广大的民众可以一起来参与这样的一个公建我想这是一个好的那至于相关的审核机制我想金管会来说明一下"},{"start":532.264,"end":556.995,"text":"剛剛在報告裡也提到就是說我們也鼓勵說政府來發行永續發展債券但永續發展債券必須要有它一套的標準就不是所有的債券都可以發行當然這部分的話我們是有一套所以現在還在起始階段剛剛講說我們總共才281億嘛這個也是一個很重要的籌資管道特別是在支持一些永續建設上面而且我們"},{"start":558.526,"end":573.494,"text":"櫃買在負責債券市場上也會給予他們的協助跟一些怎麼樣去因為有的你需要跨部會啊並不是只有單一啊當然當然對不對因為你跨部會的協調這些工作你要是沒有做好等於是零啦那個"},{"start":574.754,"end":591.829,"text":"駐美代表於大雷去年12月說美台快速減免雙重課稅法案樂觀在2026年能夠促成法案持法案2025年初在美國眾議院通過後續上代參議院表決那我請問部長"},{"start":593.365,"end":609.41,"text":"那個您是否也認為2026年台美避免雙重課稅的法案今年有沒有渴望成真謝謝委員的關注其實不管是台美雙方的也民間的也好跨黨派的一個他們美國的國會議員都支持"},{"start":609.892,"end":636.593,"text":"台美緊述簽訂所謂的租稅減免 避免雙重課稅的一個協定那在去年的1月15號眾院通過當然還在參議院的審議我們也希望能夠在2026年盡快往前推動你有沒有信心嗎當然在技術性的工作我們的財政部跟美方的財政部都進行所謂的技術層級的工作小組的一直在討論那麼未來如果參議院通過那後面的進度就會比較 就會更加快以上的說明"},{"start":637.185,"end":643.714,"text":"最後一個議題美國總統川普對委內瑞拉發動大規模的打擊華府將接管委內瑞拉並開採其石油那川普總統宣告"},{"start":652.365,"end":675.22,"text":"门罗主义复活现在是加上川普总统名字的这个堂罗主义那有专家认为川普手上还有其他大事啊相较之下台美关税协议还需要一段时间那我请问部长台美关税谈判有望在农历年后2026年第二季前公布最后的结果吗"},{"start":675.64,"end":675.78,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166843","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166843","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fe3962cf6107744e091c86f757800299012e0cc7d569d1688ceb055e68315fde05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:15:56 - 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各位委員以及所有關心衛福部組織改造跟專責機構成立的夥伴們 大家好那針對本次衛福部改六法的一個修正草案 我給予衛福部"},{"start":29.302,"end":48.671,"text":"高度的肯定其中我特別關注的是兒少及家庭支持署的成立過去幾年來兒少專責機構的建立事實上是民間許多倡議團體的期盼今天這個聲音總算被聽進去了因為等了13年的時間之久"},{"start":49.571,"end":66.381,"text":"那兒童跟少年事實上是國家發展的基石家庭更是社會最核心的一個組成我們必須落實兒權公約的精神以及社會投資的概念在國民生活歷程的早期發展階段投入充足的資源"},{"start":67.243,"end":94.719,"text":"協助兒少健全成長幫助家庭親子復能並且建構友善的成長環境我特別想要強調的是新的專責機構必須發揮跨部會協調跟整合的核心功能期待透過本次的組織改造我們能達成事權統一建立完整的支持體系確保從孕產期育兒階段到青少年智力政府的服務鏈應該是連續且"},{"start":96.42,"end":119.424,"text":"不中斷的此外我的版本裡邊我也進一步參照兒權公約的精神所在在權責掌理事項中明確納入兒童權利影響評估並明定身心健康事故傷害防治數位安全跟隱私以及兒少智力支持等業務範疇藉此符合兒少食物需求"},{"start":120.104,"end":135.889,"text":"那組織改造不是只有換招牌而是要透過制度化來提升韌性確保每個孩子都能在國家保護網下健全成長因此這項修法是落實國家希望工程的關鍵一步我懇請各位委員同仁一起支持 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166864","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166864","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f3cccf281942747bb781827afd94ae33312e0cc7d569d16886c539369133b2ff25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:48:01 - 09:50:38","影片長度":"00:02:37","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:48:01+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:50:38+08:00","duration":157,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.8915937500000001,"end":2.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5578437500000004,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.910343750000003,"end":61.742843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.24909375,"end":62.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.83534375000001,"end":64.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.98284375,"end":65.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.18096875,"end":87.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.28721875000001,"end":91.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.34159375,"end":95.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.10034375000001,"end":109.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.76909375000001,"end":128.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.65221875,"end":137.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.06846875000002,"end":155.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.90096875,"end":157.96409375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.165,"end":14.841,"text":"林楚瑩委員 程旭發言剛剛聽了多位國民黨委員的發言本席感到非常的開心就是在這將近兩年的時間裡面終於聽到在野黨委員說要尊重憲法而且要"},{"start":16.022,"end":30.962,"text":"行政立法之間要互相尊重本人其實表情非常堅定但是內心非常喜悅非常開心的在這裡聽到在野黨願意尊重憲法但是呢在剛剛發言的過程中我們也聽到了他們針對法案"},{"start":32.504,"end":61.413,"text":"有非常多的質疑那不就是應該要來討論嗎程序發言當中只能針對程序尤其是他們特別提到的所謂言論自由的部分從行政院再包括我們民進黨委員一共有23個版本可能是版本太多在野黨委員來不及看就以本人跟王定宇委員王逸川委員以及羅美玲委員所提的版本當中就特別修正了把意圖兩個字拿掉言下之意就是希望"},{"start":62.293,"end":87.287,"text":"不要涉及到所謂限制到言論自由的部分但是顯然他們可能太忙了忙於黨國安的國防預算 忙於黨總預算所以來不及針對今天的法案來進行研究那麼在這裡本席就特別提出來了其實不論是我們民進黨委員所提的版本或者是國民黨所提出來"},{"start":88.608,"end":104.853,"text":"國民黨沒有提出版本行政院所提的版本其實我們都希望是站在國安的角度來做考量那麼既然在野黨希望能夠討論希望能夠嚴謹那麼本席就希望在我程序發言之後能夠開始針對實質的法案內容來進行討論最後要強調的就是對民進黨來講守護國家安全重要言論自由更為重要"},{"start":115.996,"end":136.721,"text":"所以這也是為什麼今天所有的國民黨的委員在這裡可以持續的大鳴大放但是我要強調的就是進入實質討論是非常重要的而這個也是民進黨一直以來所追求的那麼至於說他們對於這些版本上面有任何的歧見跟意見"},{"start":137.841,"end":157.824,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166863","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166863","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f4f21fca7daa89f605d44f5a94e3adf3512e0cc7d569d1688a3e401defcf2fd2e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:43:29 - 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一起各位先進有請經管會的彭主委好 請彭主委然後請莊部長一起好不好 兩位一起等一下好 那也請莊部長好 委員長"},{"start":23.971,"end":48.144,"text":"好兩位長官早首先請教彭主委前面有委員提到了我們現在這個股市一直創新當然對國人來講都是看起來是心情都不錯可是仔細一看4月9號去年的4月9號國安基金入場到今年的5號昨天是6號今年7號"},{"start":50.907,"end":62.803,"text":"這個大盤漲了在1月5號在前天的時候大盤漲了75%上市公司 我講只有上市沒有上櫃一千家左右 一千零多包括本國900多包括什麼KY的"},{"start":65.188,"end":79.925,"text":"那麼超過大盤漲幅的120價左右四分之一的上市公司低於去年4月9號的股價也就是它的股價低於國安基金進場的一個"},{"start":82.808,"end":98.78,"text":"一個現象那股市的交易八成集中在晶片半導體等有電子股的類股啦這個金融會因應啦你們什麼有交易所提出來的看交易所董事長要來可以喔"},{"start":99.64,"end":105.762,"text":"什麼價值提升計畫啦這我看都沒有啦到底是怎麼樣具體到底是什麼啦你價值提升是價值提升台灣價值還是金融價值是不是噴金融價值還是什麼的還是我們證交所價值是什麼價值提升跟委員報告那基本上來講的價值提升計畫就是說從我們的上市的公司裡面呢他必須要"},{"start":125.207,"end":131.01,"text":"去揭露他的這些中長期的策略沒有那個他的中長期的策略那基本上我們的價值提升計畫我們是有經過我們對於我們現在有487家揭露了他們的計畫那些計畫基本上的要點難能不能講你的價值提升計畫就是你要讓我們的投資者知道欸 借過來 借過來"},{"start":153.803,"end":157.126,"text":"這裡有遺珠啊遺珠之漢啊這麼讚的你都沒買到沒看到閃閃發光這個被遺失的這些珍珠啊或者什麼的是不是這樣子對 是不是這個意思是 沒錯啊 怎麼表現出來我們都是會在我們會加強宣導讓投資者去看到來啦 那個主委可以嗎你就針對這些遺珠"},{"start":178.917,"end":185.259,"text":"這些大家沒有看到的這些珍珠要不要發一個ETF啦來一個什麼珍珠ETF可以嗎或是遺珠ETF可以嗎"},{"start":193.703,"end":212.068,"text":"這個要不要發ETF牽涉到比特幣當然市場有機會他不然就會發我想說這個部分剛才其實交易所這邊要做的是因為如果是整個產業結構的問題我們要調整是可能不是金管會所說我們能做就是資訊盡量充分完整的揭露"},{"start":212.848,"end":221.616,"text":"我們以前啊 鼓勵公司加薪 我們就有加薪100的ETF公司治理好 我們有公司治理的ETF同樣這裡應該就要發行這個移租ETF類似這個名字 名字可以改你要改成金融ETF我也不會反對金融就噴金融的金融啦 我也不是養金融的金融"},{"start":236.268,"end":244.251,"text":"我覺得委員這個想法是很好我會請那個交易所他們回去把這個東西再做一個因為其實上就是我怎麼樣讓社會知道台灣有很多很好的產業對啊 你把它鼓勵一下讓大家知道比如本利比很低的啊對不對 這個都值得大家投資啊結果現在都集中在這裡"},{"start":256.296,"end":275.289,"text":"這個扭曲啊 台灣的股市下極端扭曲也會進一步造成貧富差距的惡化老實講 你們的監理很重要是當然是 我想我們資本市場的監理因為它是整個反映產業結構我想說這部分我會請他們來演繹那個價值提升這個都做文章啦這跟人家說就是我講的這樣啦好的"},{"start":282.294,"end":297.187,"text":"讓大家知道怎麼樣讓他知道發ETF啊或者鼓勵券商發ETF都可以把他們找來你們發幾個我們就是這些被移租非電子類好的股票我們給他發ETF"},{"start":298.928,"end":301.13,"text":"事實上我們台灣指數公司事實上已經有發行的很多其他的指數的"},{"start":318.349,"end":326.036,"text":"的ETF那給業者來做參考那這個部分來講我們一定會加強我們一定會加強業者來發行董事長你這講這不好啦因為現況就這樣啊電子股的集中八成啊就是八成不管你以前做什麼你說我都有啊我都沒有結果結果是八成在這裡我們希望能夠把它分散一下所以我剛才講"},{"start":341.548,"end":349.172,"text":"就跟我們報告 委員那這個想法我覺得都是非常正面要促進我給你一個月內評估可以嗎 一個月內可以啦 沒問題來來來 第二條我問你喔那個 亞彭主委那個董事長可以請回喔"},{"start":357.062,"end":375.419,"text":"那個受險業是用IFOS上路了嘛對不對1月1號開始上路了齁新的制度等於讓他大幅減少他需要的避險的所花的成本齁那但是如果台幣長期升值"},{"start":376.383,"end":403.14,"text":"你要如何建立確實喔 這個就是我們要應對假設台幣是長期升值以他們現在的避險工具是也沒辦法避得到等於說我們要做這個這條最重要的是現在避險工具沒辦法解決長期結構性的問題這才是真的問題如果說這個避險工具可以做的話他就該做的啊但是問題是我們就看到了因為他被避險的標的跟避險工具之間是不匹配的好 因為我時間有限了我們主席要控制嚴格來"},{"start":404.262,"end":407.354,"text":"你的減少避嫌一兆左右把它一兩年一兆嘛"},{"start":409.195,"end":435.332,"text":"你們是轉為專戶希望他增資對不對概念上是這樣的就是等於說是這一部分呢就等於說他必須要累積在資產裡面你有沒有硬性要求他什麼時候你今天已經開始上路了給他本來那個變化這麼大你變成這麼小某種程度對他是大大的利多啦對受刑是大大的利多那麼什麼時候他可以變成增資我們希望他資本額高一點"},{"start":436.733,"end":464.021,"text":"沒有就是他今年最快他們的會試用是應該是今年6月30號因為我們的保險法是半年評估一次6月30號剛剛委員提到說對他有利其實不是因為他做完這樣一個遠道表達以後他的損失可以少略但收益也沒有了所以說我想這是個持平我必須要在這邊講損失少略就是利多不是他的收益也沒有了我想這是一個"},{"start":465.121,"end":472.445,"text":"這個今天沒有時間講這麼多啦來 我現在什麼時候可以 你要求什麼時候就6月30號他就會反映出來我們現在看啦剛才委員提到 這個就是我們講的你現在受刑的錢有多少錢受刑業 現在總共是37兆受刑業 對這麼多 對手上不是只有5兆啊 什麼可以用的不是 總的錢30 總剩下37兆啊手上可以投資的"},{"start":493.297,"end":498.325,"text":"手上全部資產都可以投資他現在都投海外比較多嗎投海外22兆左右"},{"start":500.406,"end":505.588,"text":"問題就在國內沒有投資標題嘛對不對 那個部長啊財政部長 來來來 總部長你們啊 ㄍㄧㄤㄍㄧㄤ啦115年發工債只有1500億114年1800億 113年1800億到2025年 去年底為止 總共發了不到6000億這麼一點點受刑什麼夠吃而且你們利率都很低啊你們都多少 請問你"},{"start":530.643,"end":544.887,"text":"多少 公債利率一點多一點多啊人家這些授權公司都買一個30年期的保底的公債海外比你高很多啊海外都比你們高很多啊所以我是覺得啦"},{"start":553.613,"end":576.887,"text":"這個收錢這麼多 手上這麼多錢你不能怪他說投資海外海外又有避險的問題等等的因為匯率長期升值的問題現在問題就在於財政部沒有好好的我們的債券市場我們資本市場就兩大嘛一個是股票市場 一個債券市場債券市場很差啊 政府公債怎麼樣"},{"start":578.63,"end":581.613,"text":"對不對你們多發一點 多發一點但是你們反其他你們都反其他 五年八年你鼓勵誰發"},{"start":599.149,"end":611.396,"text":"你鼓勵誰 鼓勵就是說他做這個公務員其實是非營業的特種基金 他進行公共建設那他具有市場性的話那你自己也挑走啊你自己也挑走啦 對不對你自己做多一點啦 你五千多億加一個零差不多對不對 難怪我們在軍市場發展不起來這個 最後一個來啦 這個部長"},{"start":628.359,"end":643.147,"text":"我這個很簡單的一個就是美國企業或我們可以他中心在美國145個國家跟他有最低稅務他不用交了15%我們是不是可以在裡面"},{"start":645.168,"end":661.234,"text":"有沒有這個東西委員您的題目是今天的媒體報導是這個那個是美國因為他不是用OECD的GMT的全球最低稅負值因為他有他自己的稅制所以他希望他這個不需要用這個這套制度而是"},{"start":661.914,"end":685.576,"text":"透過AECD它有一個並行的一個制度在這個情況下那它可以不需要AECD的我們呢我們的部分因為我們目前來說現在觀察各個國家推動GMT的一個情形然後以及我們也先提高我們GMT的一個稅率像目前來說是法行政院美國企業總部在美國他的公司在台灣我們要不要課他最低稅務要不要"},{"start":688.038,"end":708.804,"text":"要不要 要啊我們要 再加一個小問題那個彭金弄 各位啊現在報導說委內瑞拉的總統馬杜洛他有600億美金的比特幣啊不知道跑去哪裡在追啊你們有沒有什麼機制來防止他跑到台灣洗錢出去啊 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謝謝召委 請陳部長請陳部長部長 今天是1月7號嘛對 那總預算沒有審也沒有通過那對農業部有沒有產生什麼樣的影響我想總預算沒審的部分大概影響成分為兩個部分一個部分是新增的計畫是完全不能動的"},{"start":29.705,"end":50.064,"text":"那新任的計畫在農業部這邊我們統計大概有16億多16.7億對16億多那另外一個部分是延續性計畫但是因為我們增加了很多工作項目所增加的這個預算那這個預算也是不能動用這個大概有74億左右74.2億對所以加起來將近有90億90億"},{"start":52.066,"end":71.652,"text":"所以這個部分都是受到了總預算不審查那我再更細的問16.7億新一星的預算裡面有涉及到氣候變遷包括河川包括排水的一些改善的包括無人載具的包括甚至於農民的水利工程甚至於治山防災的這個部分那這個部分怎麼來處理"},{"start":72.403,"end":93.648,"text":"我想非常重要的一個影響就是水利的一個建設因為特別是在今年看起來很多颱風特別是在中南部的部分有很多地方在山坡地的儲食流的預警監測一直到農田的水利灌溉的建設還有坡地的防災的部分那這個部分都在我們的新興計畫裡面必須要去做的"},{"start":94.068,"end":110.418,"text":"那更重要的是在這裡面還有一些是要透過地方政府一起合作的部分那如果說這個經費如果沒辦法順利通過的時候那相對的對於我們後續在訊息一開始的時候的防範會產生更多的一個可能的一個風險"},{"start":111.278,"end":138.719,"text":"所以這些經費如果總預算遲遲不審不通過的話這些新一新的計畫完全不能用嘛對 是不能用因為去年幾個颱風幾乎是對中南部產生重大的影響北部感受不深啦齁但是中南部特別很多都涉及到治山防洪的甚至很多一些排水的甚至很多農業的一些經費我們要趁這一次的機會趕快來做趕快來做的話有機會趕在訊息之前的時候能夠萬一颱風又來了或者豪雨又來的時候減輕整個災情"},{"start":140.16,"end":143.645,"text":"那如果現在此時不通過的話對中南部的影響是相當大的"},{"start":144.17,"end":166.177,"text":"是 特別在對農業 那我這邊也期待就是立法院的委員能夠盡快的能夠將我們的總預算 就是付為審查那如果需要一些說明的我們很願意在委員會這邊來做一個說明跟委員做溝通但是不能說都不進到委員會審查讓我們沒有溝通的一個機會現在連讓進到委員會都不進來連讓一堵連進到委員會討論都不討論如果進來了以後"},{"start":171.358,"end":186.849,"text":"藍白是多數嘛 如果認為講的 農業部講的沒有道理不該給的錢 那你刪掉大家也沒什麼好說的你多數你也可以刪嘛 你有能力刪嘛但是連討論都不討論 連審都不審這個完全無法對國人交代這怕什麼 我說藍白在怕什麼 難道你是怕"},{"start":187.529,"end":199.943,"text":"你的這個總預算被大家看到了政府要做什麼事情嗎就是我覺得毫無道理 毫無道理可言進來如果農業部編的經費不合理那你要 你要刪 你要動我們可以來討論但是你連進來討論都不討論這個人民無法接受"},{"start":202.686,"end":232.106,"text":"對 這個也是我們一直覺得很奇怪的地方所以我們也一直呼籲就是立法院能夠盡快的審總預算因為它牽扯到對人民甚至對農民很多的權益事項我們真的再次呼籲藍白要以人民為念 以農民為念然後不要刻意去杯葛你連進來討論都不敢給討論的話這完全毫無道理完全站不住腳 完全沒辦法接受的也從來沒有總預算到了這個年度開始了連進來都沒有進來過這也是完全沒有發生過的事情我認為這個是完全無法接受的"},{"start":232.866,"end":261.034,"text":"那既有的預算他有些新增了74.2億這個影響也很大裡面也有很多牽涉到各個項目的部分部長好不好再談一下對這個部分我相信我們所有的三級單位所談的除了新興計畫以後我舉個例子包括冷鏈的部分我們常需要的冷鏈的部分然後相關的這些一些業務的執行的部分那這個部分都是在新興裡面我們增加的部分"},{"start":261.334,"end":276.384,"text":"我看到裡面有水利工程的水利工程也有對因為他因應了去年的狀況之後有在做一些新增但是這個水利工程影響到這個包括水路保持的部分置山防洪的這部分包括大大崩這個大範圍的一個崩塌的"},{"start":276.604,"end":292.893,"text":"大規模崩塌還有土石流大規模崩塌這個都是因應到去年的狀況有再做一些調整但是我們因為像高雄這邊有非常多的因為這次颱風增加的部分去年幾個颱風造成很大的一個崩塌然後所以我們在原系性的計畫有新增的這些經費那這些經費也不能"},{"start":293.673,"end":317.528,"text":"我去年在上那個山上的時候像六龜什麼地方那個幾乎是全面整個崩塌下來整個整個水道幾乎完全水路完全是被土石所崩塌的影響這個要盡快來做你不做的話那整個莊頭幾乎整個受到很大的影響好不好這個我們希望要一方面持續跟藍白國會溝通一方面也持續跟社會溝通讓社會知道這個經費是非常的重要的"},{"start":318.325,"end":325.405,"text":"會 我想我們會盡量的去做這些說明還有裡面有很多包括穩定材料 資材啦甚至於整個"},{"start":326.67,"end":354.673,"text":"阿里山軸線的一些躍升 甚至於安全檢驗 甚至於動物的一些檢驗這個都很重要 我認為這都很重要還有 我覺得講對農民更有影響的我們的很多肥料的補助的部分那因為我們在設計上面今年度 明年度 今年度有一些新的經費那這個部分我想也因為總預算的關係沒有辦法去增加這個請部長要持續的對南白國會說明以外也要持續的對社會做說明好不好社會更支持的話預算才有可能省的好不好"},{"start":355.233,"end":382.814,"text":"另外我覺得農業部有提了一個這個東西其實我覺得這個很好啦現在大家都幾乎到手機的時代了連老人家 連老農都不管老農 親農大家都要用手機了那你如果把你的服務整合到手機裡面的話其實會更便利不管是查詢退休金還是子女的獎學金或者是農業的天然災害的補助啊或者是一些相關的事項都可以甚至申請 我認為這個很好這個部分本來預定在去年年底就要開始來推動啦現在推動了沒"},{"start":384.675,"end":410.523,"text":"我們預計在今年度我們現在已經在1月2號開始已經有兩個地點我們要先做示範一個在桃園一個在嘉義那我們做示範完了以後大概上個月如果說大家很順利的話我看到你們是預計在114年12月中旬要開始來提供我們正式是在今年的1月2號我們就在兩個縣市這邊先做示範然後三個月之內如果大家沒問題的話我們會全這個要用到今年的經費嗎"},{"start":411.838,"end":440.949,"text":"這個也要用到今年的經費新增經費嗎這個算是延續計畫裡面如果總預算沒有審查通過的話這個可以做嗎總預算沒有過這也沒辦法做這個我也希望盡快來推動好不好那也希望持續的對社會各界說明好不好因為這件事情我認為對老農對青農都很重要現在大家幾乎都用手機可以得到很多資訊如果透過APP其實經費並不多啦1272萬如果能夠做這件事情的話其實對我們很多的資訊都會有很大的幫助"},{"start":441.189,"end":469.19,"text":"還有17項的這些對農民的服務都放在這裡面去做整合性的協助再要請教一下這一次的共軍的演習的部分對我們的漁民也造成很大的影響了齁這個部分造成多少損失我想這個損失現在目前是沒有辦法去估算的齁因為他演習的時候讓我們的漁民是沒辦法出海的部分我看澎湖永安很多地方的漁民都沒辦法出海沒辦法出海的是然後這種演習的部分會造成"},{"start":470.371,"end":495.549,"text":"漁民的一些恐慌這是最重要的就是說他們蠻擔心這樣子所以我個人覺得說用這樣子一個圍島式的這種軍演是沒有道理的我就站在農業部長站在漁業署長角度要強力的譴責啦要幫漁民發聲要勇於去發聲好不好這件事情也要讓大家知道這種惡劣的行為環島的軍演造成我們漁民的一些損害讓沿境海漁民沒出海就沒錢賺了"},{"start":496.83,"end":520.695,"text":"你少一天就少一天 少兩天就少兩天所以這件事情要不斷的對社會各界做說明我覺得第一時間都要不斷的揭露各項資訊 然後同時間去譴責站在農民 漁民的角度 站在農業部的角度要做強烈的譴責最後再請教一下我們的猴群到了市區不管是在山區或原鄉都有很大的一些影響我們上次有提過電維網的部分 這個能不能加速來推動"},{"start":521.54,"end":545.188,"text":"我想這個部分我們也會去加速推動然後事實上我們林保署現在開始也在跟一些地區做一些示範性的去做這邊移除啦因為猴的密度是越來越高你如果沒有適當的部長 高雄的猴子是在市區都會跑到了來騷擾到了一般的人民然後在山區裡面都會去偷採水果也造成農民很大的困擾"},{"start":545.928,"end":565.228,"text":"所以我覺得這些要你要好的方法就是用電維網讓他不要去影響到這個我們會加速的去推動這要加速補助加速協助農民來推動才不會造成人跟猴之間的一些衝突了解好不好這個請農業部部長這給我一個月給我一份你們的評估報告好不好就什麼樣來加速推動電維網的一個制度好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166861","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166861","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f0a431c7eb37b75f391c86f757800299012e0cc7d569d1688af3aa6264434cab25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:44:03 - 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正牌這個保姆那違法操作孩童而且還虐童那事後這個企圖還刪除這個監視器的畫面把他滅證那根據調查過去只要社會局派人 警察人上門無照的張姓保姆就會把小朋友非法搜索小朋友帶往另外一棟大樓去躲避起來"},{"start":298.152,"end":303.353,"text":"所以根據社家屬的這個訪視規定他因為需要這個事先電話預約這個時間讓稽查效果整個大打折扣這也是為什麼張姓保姆他可以違法兩年之久都沒有被發現那部長你參考一下這個兒童您容忍跟還想陪你長大的這個兒家屬的政策建言他說把訪視員的預約制改成這個不預期的他用突襲檢查的我比較願意用不預期的這個做法您同意嗎你有支持這個"},{"start":325.879,"end":329.583,"text":"跟委員說明在凱凱案之後我們在113年就已經修改這個我們的廣告規定已經是不預期了我還是要再提到呂健德市長主導的內部調查霸凌案但是結果這麼大的差距譬如以劉玉娟 當然他們是以其他的市長"},{"start":344.84,"end":350.505,"text":"劉玉娟本身在內部的調查是沒有霸凌事件那現在這個監察院很清楚的指出來那我請問你兩件事情你怎麼處理劉玉娟你怎麼處理主導這個調查案的理事長請你明白的告訴我"},{"start":360.473,"end":380.758,"text":"我想當時候在這個內部的調查的程序裡面都有依照規定我聽取過這個報告 漏洞百出我在公開質詢這個錄影都有但是部長 我現在問你你要除以這個官官相互完全失職的這個旅次長可以嗎 他可以進去做調查嗎"},{"start":382.41,"end":397.416,"text":"他做的調查跟箭頭完全不同啊他的調查已經結束了整個調查報告也都完成了我想要看到你後續處理做錯事總是要被處罰嘛完全不相同 你們是官官相護嘛那我請問你 劉奕娟現在還是擔任你的主命她現在被送到懲戒法庭了你要繼續任用她嗎 重用她嗎"},{"start":401.678,"end":410.443,"text":"因為當時候的程序啊 我們都已經完成他的相關的調查報告確實他沒有這個 符合這個法律我要告訴你 你兒少法基本上要遵守國際兒童權利公約又要以兒童最佳利益為優先但是如果你一個部門人你自己的基層同仁都沒有辦法好好保護好好被制度守護著請問你我們怎麼相信你衛福部的體系能夠這樣的去守護其他的家庭"},{"start":429.435,"end":439.581,"text":"我們非常強調這個內部的申訴管道那麼不會誤玩誤中啦我們不會讓這個霸凌再發生好 謝謝陳昭志委員的詢答"}]}},{"id":"166851","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166851","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f3833f0d09d7130f5781827afd94ae33312e0cc7d569d16883c3fe24fbfd0fd505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:12:27 - 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感謝"}]}},{"id":"166850","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166850","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f139d937a482b505a781827afd94ae33312e0cc7d569d16880172323f4dd3fbb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:08:32 - 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Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:08:32+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:12:15+08:00","duration":223,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.38096875,"end":5.920343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.98784375,"end":6.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.03846875,"end":17.817218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.07034375,"end":114.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.49471875,"end":84.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.27034375000001,"end":145.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.66221875000002,"end":216.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.19971875000002,"end":219.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.67159375000003,"end":222.96659375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.329,"end":17.575,"text":"謝謝主席今天我們在這邊要審查行政院版提出的這個國家安全法部分條文修正草案本席必須要嚴肅的指出這份草案姿勢體大牽扯的不僅僅是國家安全的維護更涉及了"},{"start":18.235,"end":37.782,"text":"我們憲法保障人民的基本權利言論自由訴訟權益以及罪行法定原則的根基我們看到行政院送來的這份草案洋洋灑灑理由寫得冠冕堂皇而我們看到的說是為了因應境外敵對勢力的滲透手法日趨多元但細究其條文內容我們看到的是"},{"start":40.163,"end":55.174,"text":"行政權的無限擴張是法治國原則的崩壞甚至是綠色恐怖的具體化本席要在這邊強烈的主張今天的審查程序不應該倉促進行這部法案充滿了巨大的憲法爭議"},{"start":55.874,"end":71.887,"text":"我們絕對不能在沒有社會共識沒有專家學者充分參與的情況下就草率的逐條審查本市要求針對這份草案必須要先召開多場高規格的公聽會邀請憲法學者刑法學者人權團體以及資通產業界的代表"},{"start":74.589,"end":93.831,"text":"來共同檢視這份法案的釋法性跟妥當性在凝聚共識之前本席是反對進入實質的審查首先本席要針對草案第7條的修正提出最嚴厲的質疑行政院在修法中竟然他在說明欄裡白紙黑字的承認"},{"start":94.772,"end":110.757,"text":"現行的法規中必須要有意圖危害國家安全或社會安全的主觀要件但是因為司法實務上常因舉證不義而無法有效的定罪所以把意圖拿掉那改成所謂的刑事適性法"},{"start":115.696,"end":140.48,"text":"這樣的一個邏輯我們無法接受因為檢察官舉證困難所以政府不想辦法提升我們偵查的品質反而回過頭來要修訂降低定罪的門檻刑法的核心內精神是無犯意即無罪那既然你們把意圖拿掉只要客觀的行為被認定足以生危害於國家安全就可以處以七年以上的重罪"},{"start":141.225,"end":167.456,"text":"請問什麼叫做足以生危害這個標準誰說了算是檢察官說了算還是執政黨說了算這種模糊的法律概念配合高刑度根本就是為了羅織入罪而開大門未來任何與對岸的商業交流學術往來是不是只要讓執政黨看不順眼就可以被扣上足以危害國家安全的帽子然後根本不需要證明什麼主觀意識就可以"},{"start":168.12,"end":178.109,"text":"直接定人入罪這不是白色恐怖的腹屁什麼才是這不是戒嚴什麼才是其次呢草案第二條也訂定了參與組織的處罰並將其定義擴大到不問參與組織活動與否說明梁先生引用了最高法院的判決說只要同意參與"},{"start":186.557,"end":202.811,"text":"具備共同目的就算沒參加活動也算這完全是思想審查的延伸所謂的形式上無害之組織如果被政府認定有問題民眾在不知情的情況之下是否就會誤觸法網這種相處罰前置化範圍無限擴大的做法極度缺乏法律的明確性讓人民動輒得救生活在恐懼之中所以呢本席在這邊呢"},{"start":214.079,"end":216.561,"text":"再次重申我們反對倉促的審查要求召開公聽會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166849","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166849","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f5949ee491357b69e781827afd94ae33312e0cc7d569d1688e0f426a43ff29c455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:04:59 - 09:08:17","影片長度":"00:03:18","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:04:59+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:08:17+08:00","duration":198,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.52846875,"end":5.127218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.177843750000001,"end":5.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.312843750000001,"end":10.020968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.240343750000001,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.88534375,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.914718750000002,"end":24.145343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.246593750000002,"end":92.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.92784375000001,"end":157.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.82909375,"end":197.24909375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.517,"end":14.074,"text":"好 謝謝主席第一次的程序發言那因為呢這個上次呢我已經提案說明過了所以我這邊稍微重整一下因為今天這個法案的這個條文非常的多那這個"},{"start":14.986,"end":42.877,"text":"我在這個去年到今年為止幾乎都是有提過的案子但是條號可能都不一樣所以我想說藉由這一個程序發言我們先做一個簡單的重整第一個是國安法的第二條第二條其實最主要是針對發起這種組織等等相關的這一個原本的犯罪但是原本的這一個類型其實是不夠明確的所以第一個修法第二條就是希望能夠再把它再加的明確化並把它類型化這是第一個"},{"start":43.53,"end":70.963,"text":"那第二個呢就是第三條的修正那第三條的修正呢其實是跟我們第三條的修正應該是沒有院版但是有很多委員的版本那第三條最主要是針對比如說這個跟國家關鍵技術有關的機密這跟經濟安全有關但因為原來的條文也是呢就是很難適用所以呢比如說今天我們這一個台積電的機密啊等等之類的他應該被保護但是他有時候很難就是直接落入到第三條的範圍"},{"start":72.023,"end":92.146,"text":"所以針對這一個呢第三條來做相對應的修正這是第二個再來呢是第四條第四條比較特別第四條是針對武力統一這個部分那這一個呢我們等一下在質詢的時候應該也會特別討論就是說呢如果只是針對武力統一的話但可能針對一些一樣會比如說他今天"},{"start":93.087,"end":110.522,"text":"商貨叫公務員作為或不作為或者說他今天商貨直接投降的言論或者商貨今天去做和平協議他不一定會落入到第四條的範圍所以第四條要怎麼樣呢可以去涵蓋到現在灰色地帶作戰都能夠做到的我覺得這應該也是可以討論"},{"start":111.533,"end":126.401,"text":"那第四條之一這個是跟網際網路有關的相關的這一個下架的這一個法則它是配合前面的第二條第三條跟第四條那再來呢接下來進入的就是中間人的條款也是我覺得這一次修法非常重大的一個"},{"start":127.417,"end":147.954,"text":"這個革新就是因為呢就跟反滲透法一樣反滲透法大部分都是透過中間人來達成那我們剛剛看到的所有的這些事情不管是洩漏秘密又或者說今天是發展組織等等的或者說為特定的商貨這些都有可能會有中間人的參與但中間人要處罰必須要獨立出來"},{"start":149.875,"end":175.211,"text":"那有兩種做法一種做法就是在第二第三條直接明定中間人另外一個是這次院版的做法應該是在第八條之一吧應該是八條之一直接把中間人的規範訂立進去那最後呢還有一個呢比較重要的比較肢解的就是如果是針對境外敵對勢力這個部分呢有加重的這個法則我想這應該沒什麼問題因為呢我們目前台灣的威脅應該是非常的明確"},{"start":175.885,"end":196.804,"text":"然後以及呢在最後呢關於退休降臨如果說在這個判決還沒有確定之前他的這個退休給予該怎麼做這個我們在國防外交委員會其實有討論過多次那看起來也跟國防部有達成共識所以這個部分我想應該比較不會有什麼問題那以上用這樣的方式呢我先重整一下今天整體要討論的這一個方向 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166844","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166844","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f7f1aa436386b55ac4473b985e049f91a12e0cc7d569d1688ec1a1595b71728d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:16:12 - 09:24:11","影片長度":"00:07:59","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「農業科技園區設置管理條例增訂第十五條之一條文草案」案。\n二、審查本院委員李柏毅等16人擬具「植物品種及種苗法第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「農產品市場交易法第六條及第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員邱議瑩等20人擬具「農產品市場交易法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳瑩等16人擬具「農產品市場交易法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n以上全案於1月7日（星期三）、1月8日（星期四）詢答及處理。\n【1月7日及8日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:16:12+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:24:11+08:00","duration":479,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.805968750000002,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.860343750000002,"end":12.771593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.30659375,"end":18.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.32346875,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.39096875,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.42471875,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.70721875,"end":32.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.89596875,"end":27.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.78534375,"end":40.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.15534375,"end":41.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.408468750000004,"end":52.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.220968750000004,"end":54.689093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.02659375,"end":66.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.21034375,"end":74.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.82096875,"end":79.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.95096875,"end":83.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.49471875,"end":87.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.20284375,"end":89.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.97471875000001,"end":90.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.00409375000001,"end":100.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.07846875000001,"end":103.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.81221875,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.97596875,"end":111.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.30471875,"end":148.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.76034375,"end":139.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.34096875,"end":152.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.26034375,"end":154.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.77471875,"end":165.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.77721875,"end":194.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.08596875,"end":188.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.38034375,"end":195.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.00034375,"end":213.93846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.44971875000002,"end":209.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.12409375000001,"end":225.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.48096875000002,"end":229.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.07096875000002,"end":231.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.23534375000003,"end":235.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.99409375000002,"end":237.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.57596875000002,"end":239.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.31409375,"end":242.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.37284375000002,"end":243.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.43596875000003,"end":255.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.55221875,"end":275.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.49846875000003,"end":279.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.98721875,"end":281.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.72534375000004,"end":283.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.54784375,"end":287.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.96909375,"end":290.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.53409375,"end":295.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.27159375,"end":299.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.79846875000004,"end":304.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.43471875,"end":306.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.32471875000005,"end":309.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.26534375,"end":312.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.57284375,"end":312.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.14659375,"end":316.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.14596875,"end":326.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.68034375,"end":330.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.46034375000005,"end":333.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.41346875000005,"end":335.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.01221875000005,"end":341.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.07034375,"end":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部長謝謝您剛才對於本席提案的這個說明我還是來讓部長看一下 當時提案的理由其實是為了解決我們高雄果菜市場到現在不敷使用的這個狀態高雄的果菜批發市場是成立在民國64年那我們的年交易量大概是10到11萬公噸"},{"start":42.119,"end":66.37,"text":"這個規模大概是全南台灣大概是最大這個我想部長你也很清楚左下這一個圖就是現在的果菜批發市場的限值這個大概是2點幾公頃那右邊這個圖是我們現在高雄市政府新找到的位在台塘的土地上面是在人物在果實的旁邊這個大概是6公頃左右"},{"start":67.31,"end":89.32,"text":"部長那你看一下為什麼我會提案修法希望能夠來盡速解決這個批發市場的問題高雄的這個果菜批發市場只有2.5公頃你看到在批發做買賣的時候這個動線非常的混亂拍賣的空間非常非常的小甚至我們連廢棄物的處理都是非常受限的"},{"start":90.04,"end":107.828,"text":"但是要解決這個問題當然我們要去找土地嘛現在最好的土地當然就是國營事業包括台塘的土地是可供使用的但是台塘的規定是他只租不售但是我們的原來的農產品市場交易法裡頭又規定我們只能買"},{"start":109.148,"end":128.762,"text":"對於這個果菜市場只能買所以這個就跟我們在尋找土地上面就產生一個極大的落差跟困難那謝謝農業部願意很正面的回應本席的這個修法的需求部長但是我想要請教就是說其實因為台糖是屬於經濟部所管它在國營事業是屬於經濟部所管"},{"start":129.442,"end":146.193,"text":"那未來包括農業部提的這個修正的動議修正的條文希望這個東西都要經過主管機關的核可即使高雄市政府送上來也要經過農業部的核可未來在農業部跟在台糖在國營事業這個中間會不會產生一個gap"},{"start":149.415,"end":164.032,"text":"有沒有辦法農業部成立一個專責的窗口來協助各縣市政府解決處理跟比如說未來我們跟國營事業跟台糖之間的這些土地不管是租啦或者是協議啦或者是徵收的這些問題部長"},{"start":166.214,"end":181.349,"text":"謝謝委員的一個詢問那我想未來如果在食物執行面的部分我相信農業部跟經濟部本身的一個互動我們就有聯繫窗口那同樣的就是我們農業部也有代表參加台堂的董事會"},{"start":182.19,"end":206.108,"text":"那因為整個土地如果要租用的話在台塘的過程我所知道在台塘一定要經過董事會同意那相對的就是我們的代表在台塘的時候就可以充分的說明它的一個必要性跟合理性這個部分那我相信台塘這邊的部分那相關的就是我們會先核定這個主管基這個土地是當作批發市場農業部那台塘的土地是不是出租是由"},{"start":206.628,"end":234.953,"text":"由台當董事會同意以後報經濟部的部分所以兩個部分我想我們會有一個比較好的溝通在農業部是由我們的農糧署當做一個窗口那在跟台當溝通的部分我們會透過我們的那個公務董事的部分去那邊做一個溝通然後跟經濟部做一個協商好這個部分因為今天經濟部是誰來國營司嘛副市長對不對其實這個我想請副市長你們帶回去就是在國營司的"},{"start":237.575,"end":254.934,"text":"這個協調的部分來講我希望能夠把這個時程縮短因為就像您剛您看到我剛舉的這個照片其實我們已經是年久失修那因為卡在這個法條上面卡了太久了所以我們除了修法通過之後"},{"start":255.635,"end":281.077,"text":"大概高雄市政府我們會要很快速的來進行後面的這些土地不管是租用啦等等的這些問題所以這個可能要請國營司來大力協助我希望能夠跟農業部這邊來大家來互相配合是不是能夠把這個時程把它縮短趕快讓我們的這個搬遷啟用土地租用的這些事情能夠盡速的進行這個部分國營司能不能同意可以我們可以配合辦理"},{"start":281.738,"end":298.604,"text":"好謝謝來請回部長那我接下來要再請教您一個跟時事比較有相關的這個我覺得農糧署最近是不是感覺螺絲有一點鬆其實我在市場上遇到很多不管是農民或者是"},{"start":300.565,"end":315.907,"text":"菜農大家都在講我們的很多的蔬菜的管控做的沒有以前的好最近有高麗菜有青花菜的產銷的波動我們過去都會講說我們有做一些管控"},{"start":317.236,"end":343.753,"text":"至少那個量不要讓他同時出來或者是那個種植的量不要太多可是為什麼還是會發生這樣的一個狀態那量多了以後又加上冬季進口進口的夾擊你會造成農民對於種植青花菜這件事情價格的崩跌部長你們有沒有什麼解決之道或者是有什麼防治之道嗎因為這個其實我認為在我們在講所謂的智慧農業"},{"start":346.075,"end":364.609,"text":"這個東西其實是很基本的好 我跟委員報告一下針對青花菜的部分基本上我們查看了現在面積其實它面積並沒有跟跟去年是差不多的並沒有很大幅的增加那這次的價格會比較低迷最主要是它的產期比較集中因為當時因為從災後以後大家"},{"start":367.711,"end":392.093,"text":"同時的復耕的部分這是一個現象的部分那現在看起來從1月份的看起來這個價格已經回升了不過剛才委員講到一個非常重要的就是我們對於整個蔬菜的量的一個產銷的一個調節的部分過往我們是充分的跟北農合作我們有一個總量的部分然後如果說當它的量太多的時候進到批發市場如果量多的話價格一定跌那"},{"start":393.314,"end":419.414,"text":"我们会从北农那边透过相关的一个机制叫产地不要送到北农去做这样的一个协调那这个部分我想我们之前也跟北农再次的一个讨论特别是我们会支持北农的相关建设但是我们也希望说北农在这个部分的产交条件能够搭配用总量管制的部分让他的产品不要都到批发市场而到直销的这些或是甚至于做部分的"},{"start":420.034,"end":443.574,"text":"那個冷凍的儲藏特別是青蛙菜是可以冷凍儲藏的部分再做後續的釋出部長我覺得這個不是說你東西不要送到北農去就可以解決這個問題而是你在整個種植的面積上面種植的量上面從源頭你就要開始管控如果同一時間種一定會同一時間大家都量產出來嘛你要如何分批去種我覺得包括在種苗的釋出上面"},{"start":444.195,"end":452.066,"text":"我認為這個都應該要做前期的規劃不是說我把責任全部推給北農我全部不要送到批發市場上我改成照直銷我覺得"},{"start":453.979,"end":478.769,"text":"這個應該是有前後端第一段 第二段 第三段應該是要來同步做規劃做進行喔我希望這個部分 農養署應該還要再持續加強你們在產銷的這個整體的規劃上面這個應該還要再去做加強不要每一次量一大的時候我們大家就在想辦法要解決這個問題在收拾爛攤子好嗎 好了解 謝謝謝謝邱映委員 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想請石部長請石崇良部長陳委員好石部長我要追問剛剛黃國昌委員所說的事件因為我現在這邊自己的辦公室也收到全國尤其是高雄許多社工師看不下去了看不下去整件事情的荒腔走板"},{"start":29.867,"end":35.832,"text":"這個就是剛講到的林亞區新衛中心核性的殖民他濫用職權查到鎖定一個目標對一位未成年少女家裡性侵事後更企圖要營造成性交易塞錢給他後來呢這個少女去報案檢調成立要調查以後他又透過他在社會局工作的太太再透過公務系統來追蹤性侵案的進度"},{"start":57.33,"end":72.132,"text":"那剛剛我們還是要讚美你一下你已經自己決定把他的機油都刪除了嘛對不對對 撤銷他的資格但是後續呢我還有一些事想要跟你請教高雄市的局長黃志忠局長他是怎麼回應社會大眾的"},{"start":73.314,"end":86.298,"text":"他說如果讓社會誤解我在掩蓋我會承受如果有人因此要我下台這個壓力我也承受我跟你說他上次也說他要下台至今都沒有下台上次他因為誣賴我們的雲林台灣貂裡面有多餘的藥劑結果他事後道歉說要下台現在還穩穩的坐在這個位置上"},{"start":96.641,"end":98.063,"text":"他說這個半年他做了什麼部長我跟你報告一下他這半年呢他就內部開會配合司法調查然後查詢這個權限並且呢把這個人終止契約餘疑解聘就這樣子就這樣子喔就這樣子沒囉"},{"start":114.224,"end":117.085,"text":"這件事情發生在8月要不是現在這個人被起訴1月媒體披露以後他才對外說明耶然後衛生局才開始進行相關的裁罰罰區區六十萬對一個未成年少女性侵濫用公務系統性侵罰區區六十萬並且是媒體披露以後他才這樣子做所以我要幾個問題要請部長說明第一"},{"start":142.333,"end":162.283,"text":"你是最高指導機關請問你八月的時候就知道這件事情了你難道沒有叫地方政府要開始調查並且對外說明嗎還有公開調查結果你有沒有這樣做你有沒有建議他們跟委員說明這個八月的時候是你還不是部長對但如果你是呢"},{"start":163.325,"end":176.736,"text":"因為這個事件我有事後有去了解那麼在8月的時候主要是檢調開始來調閱這個相關他的這個資訊的查詢紀錄公務系統都在衛福部所以檢調一定是去衛福部"},{"start":178.838,"end":203.057,"text":"但是并不清楚这个案件因为当时候还是在侦查不公开的情形之下我们并不了解这个案情我们只是配合检调去提供这个查询记录的这个资讯所以你是要你现在是要跟大家说但是呢这个案子呢据我们事后的了解八月的时候呢在高雄市卫生"},{"start":203.977,"end":212.286,"text":"已經進行這個相關的人事的評議已經後來就把它解聘了在8月的時候就解聘了"},{"start":213.001,"end":233.997,"text":"那八月的時候你只知道他解聘你的意思是說你不曉得來龍去脈是什麼因為他們的解聘不需要通知本部難道你是要跟大家說你跟我跟所有的立委還有等一下他們內部同仁又有爆料我們都是看新聞才知道的你的意思是這樣子嗎"},{"start":235.058,"end":252.887,"text":"我們是直到一月初的時候我們收到這個起訴的內容的時候我們才清除這個案件好 那第二點我要請你調查的是高雄市內部有社工師傳簡訊跟我們說他們長期被封鎖這個資訊僅僅被告知該為同仁請長假這件事你可以去調查嗎"},{"start":262.319,"end":276.536,"text":"可以 我們可以了解一下據我們的了解他是在8月11號的時候就已經做成解聘的處理了但是他的同事都不知道他被解聘他的同事只知道他在請長假"},{"start":278.891,"end":290.359,"text":"我們再進一步了解那現在你是部長了你會不會希望高雄市政府針對這個說明以外可以做出更具體的檢討報告因為這個說明非常的空泛你會這樣建議他們嗎這當然應該對每一件事情特別是對"},{"start":299.824,"end":321.371,"text":"這個社工其實我們社工第一線的社工呢都是任老任怨做了很多的努力那不要因為不要因為一位這一種個人的這種惡劣的行為所以我現在是要跟你一起探討我們如何去防堵嘛據我所知你們衛福部會每一個地方政府兩個帳號嘛對不對兩個帳號"},{"start":324.392,"end":342.396,"text":"那這個人他是林亞分區的殖密他照理說他只能看到林亞分區所有個案的資料結果因為他有了這兩個賬號的其中一個所以他現在開始搜尋全部不分區的資料他也就濫用了這個權限這個你們未來要怎麼改善"},{"start":342.996,"end":360.203,"text":"跟委員報告我們對於這種資訊的查詢的權限是有規定的那麼以這個欣慰中心這個是欣慰中心的執密欣慰中心全國大概有71處的欣慰中心每一個欣慰中心都有一個執密他只能查詢他這一個"},{"start":361.323,"end":389.378,"text":"行為中心所列管的案件的資訊它是不能夠跨中心的但是呢 每一個縣市由縣市的衛生局會指定兩個全管更高的人員 兩個它是可以跨區的查詢那你去調查了嗎它憑什麼是最高權限的人你調查了嗎因為這個是由地方去指派所以這是由地方衛生局指派了兩名它是其中一名"},{"start":390.174,"end":406.841,"text":"所以難道你不會要求地方政府給你檢討報告嗎我們有進行檢討就是說各項的權限那麼什麼樣的人到什麼樣的層級呢應該要做更明確的要求所以為什麼高雄市政府會給這個人最高權限你到現在知道結果了嗎"},{"start":408.004,"end":419.069,"text":"因為他們就是指派普通的各縣市衛生局指派的層級會不一樣有的也是有用這個所以以後你會不會規定他們以後你會不會建立制度會來討論讓他有一個一致性的規範就是這個權限的部分第三個也是很重要的問題這個吹哨者說的我現在問部長"},{"start":431.935,"end":440.442,"text":"欣慰執迷可不可以在外面兼差擔任性侵加害者團體的督導可不可以"},{"start":441.516,"end":466.969,"text":"我們公務人員都有一定的兼差規定 兼職規定都是有都要報 據我所知是不行好 這邊有個資訊他114年6月的時候 擔任兼差性侵加害者團體的督導有人跟我爆料 你多久以內可以調查給我並且我們要知道 他在兼差這件事情的時候可以看到多少的資料"},{"start":468.605,"end":477.939,"text":"這個我們再向這個衛生局來了解那一個月好不好可以可以好謝謝陳清輝陳委員的詢答謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166857","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166857","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fac45539fb02f7dde5d44f5a94e3adf3512e0cc7d569d168897002103209a870d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:31:46 - 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麻煩請進委會 彭主委請彭主委委員好主委好這開2026年之後這幾天的股市的成交金額都放得蠻大的前兩年都超過8000億就是這個證交所跟OTC這邊加起來"},{"start":38.547,"end":49.206,"text":"那這個資金突然之間增加這麼多就一天大概至少增加了兩三千億的成交額有沒有了解這個金額資金是從哪裡來"},{"start":50.066,"end":78.584,"text":"當然我們也看到今年跟去年來應該講114年跟113年我們看出比如說外資的參與比率是提高了就是我們2013年大概45%左右然後去年大概48%左右我想這部分大概外資參與程度是比較高當然這個比重假設我們看去年跟前年來比的話其實去年的平均成交量跟"},{"start":79.545,"end":91.357,"text":"跟前年幾乎是差不多只差了大概一點點大概平均的日成交量大概4100億左右那只是後面這幾天比較多一點那這個狀況大概還是在一個比較正常當然"},{"start":95.101,"end":117.701,"text":"開年後這幾個交易日確實是成交量比較大一點我想大概是因為可以看到不過從平均來看的話大概應該還是在一個狀態剛才委員提到了外資其實參與台股的交易的持股比例是提高中因素很多有人說這跟ETF發行很多ETF所以他們要建倉"},{"start":119.915,"end":142.867,"text":"另外就是說外資因為過去元旦期間跟聖誕節期間是放假現在回來發現台灣股市大好所以就趕快來把他的股份建立基本的架構不過據統計前兩年外資對台灣的股市都賣超級千億"},{"start":144.316,"end":163.873,"text":"所以增加投資跟到最後的結果是賺了不少錢走是不是這樣是的 因為其實所謂的外資它都是大概一個長線的投資去年的話我們剛剛同仁應該揭露一個數字大概4000多億就是他賣超但是前年是6000多億但是他淨匯入還是淨增加"},{"start":166.835,"end":192.122,"text":"等於說其實台股的因為外資持股比例已經將近剛才跟委員報告將近五成他賣超前沒有離開台灣匯入還增加他parking在台灣是幹嘛是認為台灣他還有匯差可以賺是不是台灣的股市確實剛才委員提到也不是說台灣股市獨強各位可以看到跟國際上這些比如說現在的趨勢是密切相關的這代表外資看好台灣因為台灣去年的GDP成長是7.37如果照主計"},{"start":196.563,"end":214.395,"text":"總之現在發表的估計值今年還有3.7多這個都是全世界算是在發達國家裡面是非常好的成績所以人家來這邊投資很合理那剛剛我跟我的同仁看法不一樣就是說台灣的傳統產業遇到一些瓶頸"},{"start":215.543,"end":236.535,"text":"很多原因啦關稅只是其中一項我認為最重要的原因是因為中國的大量傾銷中國現在他就製造業過剩啊把全世界以零為貨歐盟哪裡一帶一路都大量在傾銷這些東西這個使得我們在傳統產業領域加上現在因為這個電商包裹這方面的發達讓"},{"start":238.536,"end":257.854,"text":"台灣這邊的這個製造業者反而他的稅金還比這些電商還要重本來成本就比人家重了 稅又比人家重然後他的 他所要經營這些成本就更高所以我們的傳產要深入去了解他的複雜藝術很多我認為中國的傾銷如何能夠克服這是政府的責任"},{"start":258.464,"end":284.35,"text":"其实像委员讲的没错我们也关注我们其他过去我们传统比较类似的竞争的国家像比如韩国日本其实上我们也看到股市里面确实它的传产的部分确实也跟我们面临到相同的竞争力比较差的问题我想传产在面对到整个科技趋势的时候它本来相对的在不管资本市场或者在被未来预期的关注度上都是比较不一样这不是台湾所独有的"},{"start":285.325,"end":311.041,"text":"是啦 那所以政府當然在科技高科技領域發展的很好那原來的傳統產業他因為被大量傾銷被用低價這樣子來進攻然後等等問題所以我們台灣的政府應該是要想辦法讓我們的產業我們的業者可以在這個經營上面獲得一定的保障跟優勢"},{"start":312.472,"end":327.678,"text":"你看現在那個電商的這些包裹歐洲 美國 澳洲都在對中國來的這些大量的電商包裹都在出招啊那台灣政府有什麼招呢這跟委員抱歉 這可能不是經過委員會的沒關係 那請那個莊部長來回答一下請莊部長落地了沒啊 我跟總諮詢的時候"},{"start":335.692,"end":341.936,"text":"問院長院長答應了就到底這些電商到底全部落地了沒啊什麼時候可以完成我的要求院長的答應跟委員報告有關境外電商落地的部分那他要在能夠這邊落地要經過經濟部的一個審核那目前來說有部分電商已經落地譬如譬如說像蝦皮還有coupon那有部分因為在審核的法規的部分所以沒有完成落地登記"},{"start":363.717,"end":386.924,"text":"但是我在總執行的時候你也在旁邊嘛是卓院長有答應我要要求他們趕快落地如果這樣子既然已經承諾了除非他要改變承諾了不然你法令上面該修改修改我跟你說用一個理由說好像鴕鳥這樣的心態說因為我不贊成中國的電商來台灣所以我就不讓他落地那消費者問題是消費者要消費除非你能夠把他的網路給禁掉不可能嘛所以"},{"start":390.066,"end":396.435,"text":"你這樣子讓這一些不落地的電商他的成本減輕然後他要負的責任減少"},{"start":397.81,"end":419.817,"text":"那其實對台灣的消費者傷害另外一方面對台灣者這個他的成本減少就是對台灣的業者不公平啊對人家要落地人家要增加這些成本的就變成不公平的競爭啊這一部分是不是應該要趕快去進行而不是總諮詢每半年問一次然後難道要下一次的總諮詢我再問他說不好意思做不出來"},{"start":423.145,"end":437.931,"text":"那我想委員這個關注我們都了解我們也在檢討相關的一些作業部分那你有沒有注意到美國我剛剛問的問題美國澳洲跟歐盟都在對這個大量的包裹對中國的大量包裹那個彭主委你先稍微請回座"},{"start":441.108,"end":455.542,"text":"對於這個小兒包裹低價免稅這個部分目前不是只有低價免稅人家這些地方都在對這個中國大量的這個包裹在出招稅只是其中的一項而已並不是全部"},{"start":457.603,"end":479.837,"text":"你剛剛講的這個小額包裹的免稅因為我知道現在你們的規定限制很多一年是不是半年六次然後金額是多少問題是你也沒辦法查驗他的金額他申報多少你就當作他是多少也有在課稅的那你除非有辦法追蹤到他的金流不然你怎麼知道他這個包裹來是賣多少錢"},{"start":480.297,"end":498.104,"text":"我想這個部分 有關電商平台的管理數位部也一直在尋求一個精進的一個方式是啦 那我剛剛問的問題你還沒回答你有什麼準備要對他們出什麼招呢人家美國 歐盟 澳洲這些大的經濟體都在對他出招 人家台灣好像半點點委員 這我們會跨部會的來做討論 是好 那你先請回座謝謝委員來繼續請彭主委好 再請彭主委"},{"start":511.451,"end":539.185,"text":"其實主委你的專業是在那個保險資金的這個運用方面因為你是保險方面的這個學者嘛所以對這方面了解比較多剛剛我看你那個報告這不忍阻堵台灣可以投資的是五點多兆結果你的金額裡面現在才一千多億一千五百多億給你算起來是三趴啊對確實這一直都是因為國內的標的那你有沒有了解原因是什麼我覺得原因就是其實人家將本求利人家是要賺錢"},{"start":540.532,"end":563.913,"text":"如果你給人家的案子人家賺不了錢或是有別的地方比較好賺他來投資你這個東西幹嘛因為保險業他是要賺到穩定的資金讓他來保險人將來可以獲得這個保險金額公司也永續經營當然公司另外一個目的是要賺錢可以分配給股東所以公司是盈利事業"},{"start":565.25,"end":585.424,"text":"你要想到這一點所以你的東西如果不能讓人家賺錢人家是沒有興趣的所以你說你把它開放到社會福利方面台灣的社會福利就不是要賺錢的目的你去給他看衛福部的社會福利方面社會福利它的開宗明義不是要賺錢所以你把社會福利的部分打開讓他能夠投資"},{"start":587.168,"end":608.869,"text":"賺不了什麼錢人家就不會來這跟委員報告一下其實這個中間問題確實蠻複雜的我只是說其實整個保險業他整個資產的配置組合裡面他有各式各樣的組合其實我們就像比如他買公債公債的報酬這麼低他還是要買這是他整個組合裡面會有一個基礎的那個是穩定的部分"},{"start":609.229,"end":620.499,"text":"它會有基礎 會有攻擊型的這些不一樣的配置但是我們希望把導演回來不是只有這個長照因為長照有很多是比如說它要提高服務的倒不是真的要涉入到長照的經營"},{"start":622.117,"end":639.973,"text":"還是一句老話 因為時間到了啦在台灣多想一些投資管道給人家我們免得一直要投資到外國 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09:44:51","影片長度":"00:11:09","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「農業科技園區設置管理條例增訂第十五條之一條文草案」案。\n二、審查本院委員李柏毅等16人擬具「植物品種及種苗法第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「農產品市場交易法第六條及第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員邱議瑩等20人擬具「農產品市場交易法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳瑩等16人擬具「農產品市場交易法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n以上全案於1月7日（星期三）、1月8日（星期四）詢答及處理。\n【1月7日及8日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:33:42+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:44:51+08:00","duration":669,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.480968750000002,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.012218750000002,"end":13.294718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.25159375,"end":90.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.34159375,"end":107.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.44034375000001,"end":119.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.91096875000001,"end":123.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.46721875,"end":137.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.44846875000002,"end":136.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.30909375000002,"end":148.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.12159375000002,"end":150.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.67846875,"end":151.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.17596875,"end":153.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.36971875,"end":175.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.66034375,"end":157.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.09346875,"end":167.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.72096875,"end":181.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.11721875,"end":179.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.49221875,"end":180.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.30221875,"end":181.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.04471875000002,"end":208.04909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.62596875,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.07596875000002,"end":198.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.55534375000002,"end":215.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.62596875000003,"end":215.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.89596875,"end":238.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.51034375,"end":226.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.55971875,"end":242.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.82846875,"end":263.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.98846875,"end":245.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.54909375000003,"end":248.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.20096875,"end":263.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.53409375,"end":302.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.63534375,"end":264.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.30971875,"end":268.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.59659375,"end":295.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.63034375,"end":295.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.66284375000004,"end":313.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.59346875,"end":337.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.90784375000004,"end":328.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.64909375,"end":347.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.70659375,"end":361.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.35846875000004,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.44659375000003,"end":369.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.06221875,"end":368.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.44159375000004,"end":386.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.38221875000005,"end":371.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.62596875,"end":377.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.81159375000004,"end":378.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.23221875,"end":395.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.58096875,"end":399.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.15409375,"end":408.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.94596875,"end":425.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.59909375,"end":415.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.89721875000004,"end":443.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.12409375000004,"end":430.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.57409375000003,"end":440.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.99534375,"end":454.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.72784375000003,"end":462.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.68971875000005,"end":455.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.53721875,"end":460.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.68034375,"end":4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我想請下農業部陳部長我們請農業部陳部長"},{"start":20.101,"end":46.992,"text":"部長好因為今天主席安排了一個農產品市場交易法的一個修法的一個部分所以針對整個農產品產銷的問題我這邊有幾個問題想要就教第一個是我們台灣其實經常會出現農產品產銷失衡的原因那很多時候就是比方說價格暴漲很可能是因為天災那價格暴跌可能就是因為搶種那我這邊舉個例子比方高麗菜我看前幾天高麗菜的那個批發價的"},{"start":48.137,"end":67.07,"text":"每公斤價格低到1公斤5.9元相較於今年年中的時候颱風那時候來的時候最終的一個消費者的價格的時候1公斤因為那時候1斤大概到了大概80塊平均起來1公斤等於是130幾塊就是價差大概是一個是"},{"start":68.371,"end":90.608,"text":"就是批發價產地的一個批發價跟一個最終的消費價大概差距到20幾倍那我覺得我今天要講的其實倒不是這個差距的問題我在想說我們要怎麼解決這樣子的一個產銷容易失衡的問題那我想請教一下部長因為農糧署在2010年的時候有開始一個計畫叫做大宗蔬菜播種量及"},{"start":91.768,"end":106.678,"text":"公苗預警資訊這樣子的一個機制那我想說因為已經15年了那我想說有這樣子的預警的一個制度那為什麼我們產銷的一個狀態還是沒有辦法有一個比較好的一個平衡可不可以請部長做個簡單的回應"},{"start":107.898,"end":120.368,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是有關於產銷的一個預警的制度那相對的我們特別在針對高麗菜的部分我們從種苗跟它的種植面積我們都有提出紅黃燈的一個預警那現在問題就是"},{"start":124.537,"end":150.879,"text":"因為高麗菜是一個比較容易取巧的一個蔬菜因為它單位面積產量多然後價格如果說遇到一次颱風它價格可以拉了數十倍可以承擔這個部長我簡單問一下因為基本上目前就是我們有參與到這個農產品實際種植登記率大概有多高這個數字大概有多高"},{"start":152.216,"end":181.076,"text":"我們現在目前就是我們會根據種苗的數量跟我們用航拍圖看的這個面積去推估它什麼時候會收成並沒有讓農民來做登記這是一件事情但是我要跟委員報告在今年度農業部的重要的政策之一可能在下個月我們就會正式對外公布所以現在沒有要求農民來做這個登記沒有做種植登記它是直接用航拍的方式去做估計"},{"start":182.177,"end":209.03,"text":"那我想說因為我知道說事實上在高麗菜的部分其實我知道農業部大概會提早一兩個月會有個預警我知道這個狀態那我想說既然有預警的狀態的時候因為高麗菜這邊它有很多比方說加工的部分可以去處理或者是出口的部分我知道去年也出口到不少到日本去那我希望說既然有兩個月的一個時間可以去做這樣的一個緩衝的時候我希望我們農業部這邊能夠有更高的一個"},{"start":210.112,"end":214.89,"text":"績效來做這樣子跟預警的一個相對應的處理基本上我要講的是這個問題"},{"start":215.95,"end":241.922,"text":"好 謝謝委員的一個建議我想後續我們會針對因為我們大概今年大概下個月我會公佈我們針對大部分的州會採用種植的一個登記的一個制度然後透過種植登記的部分我們會協助當你的量太多的話我們會提前的去協助做這些外銷的訂單所以種植登記是接下來要推的部分對不對會比較容易去處理那種植登記的時候到時候會不會有如果沒有登記會不會有獎懲的問題沒有"},{"start":243.483,"end":260.99,"text":"這個就是我們要重新設計的過去我們曾經推要推種植登記但是都沒有推成功就是我們的政策的誘因獎勵的誘因是脫鉤的那現在因為農業部有非常多的對農民的一些獎勵的作為那補助的作為如果說有配合種植登記的話"},{"start":261.59,"end":281.084,"text":"因為這是本席特別要講的一個部分就針對這部分的時候我們希望能夠真正去落實然後預警的制度能夠真正的有效我想這對農民來講是一個很重要的一個保障那我接下來想再請教一個問題就是獸醫的部分因為很多市主在反映一件事情那因為比方說我們目前就是"},{"start":282.105,"end":302.574,"text":"我看到農業部有個新聞稿提到說我們獸醫師法這邊是準備針對那個獸醫師用藥的這個部分是不是比照人醫的部分有一些不同的看法我知道獸醫師跟事主有不同的角度那農業部這邊特別提到說打算要部分採納研議修法"},{"start":303.717,"end":313.587,"text":"我想要知道的狀態是我們農業部這邊準備要部分採納的是哪些部分要修法的部分大概是在哪些部分因為事主的部分非常的關心"},{"start":315.966,"end":337.283,"text":"我跟委員報告基本上我們現在在處理的獸醫師這個部分就是在動物醫院的一個診療的費用的收費的一個標準我們現在正在跟公會談那這個如果跟公會如果說有一個比較好的共識的時候那在不同的醫院他的那個獸醫院的那個診察費就會有一個標準"},{"start":337.563,"end":363.549,"text":"OK 這個部分這個部分也就是我現在要問的一個問題因為我們目前看了就是按照一個就是寵物相關網站它去整合各個地方的公會呈現出來的狀態我們的診療費用掛號費跟診療費差距非常的大我想請教一下這個各地方獸醫師公會提出來的建議的數字是一個天花板價還是一個地板價不過我想他們在考慮的就是"},{"start":364.557,"end":384.813,"text":"它本身是一個天花板的上限的部分是天花板價對不對天花板不能比這個高這樣子我們看到其實差很多比方說以台南來講的時候它的價格可能是新北跟高雄的五倍以上那這為什麼會有這麼高的一個價差我覺得農業部當我們社會的主管單位我希望說能夠去做一個更好的一個"},{"start":386.354,"end":407.564,"text":"就是溝通讓整個市主能夠覺得比較平衡然後也覺得依法有據如果發生增值的時候可是假設有增值的時候我們有沒有調解的機制我們基本上這個跟地方政府是可以有申請調解的部分但是剛才委員講的一個非常重要的就是我們一定要讓"},{"start":409.033,"end":428.236,"text":"这个宠物的饲养者去受到授意的时候不会被认为是翘竹杠是是是所以这个部分我们会跟授意师公会在谈就是不同的限制当然可以有不同的标准但是这个标准的范围不能拉得太高理解所以我们看到这个部分我们还不含比方说有部分的"},{"start":428.917,"end":453.818,"text":"比方說治療啦手術費用喔光是掛號費跟診療費其實就差距五六倍所以我覺得這部分應該要農業部這邊應該要介入做一個比較好的溝通對我們現在已經在溝通OK好那後續有任何的成果再隨時跟本辦或是做一個報告那我接下來最後一個問題我要問一個狀態就是生鮮草莓跟草莓即食品的問題我想請教一下部長生鮮草莓是誰在管"},{"start":455.053,"end":471.438,"text":"農業部管嘛對不對基本上我們是在上市前是由農業部管上市後是由衛福部來負責所以說如果是草莓級食品就已經做成了草莓蛋糕草莓大福就是就是衛福部在管對不對是那我們看到了一個狀態就是"},{"start":473.118,"end":489.442,"text":"之前就是消基會做了一個調查他檢查了17項草莓即食品裡面有16項草莓不合規然後這邊都出現了一個狀態因為草莓如果變成即食品變成蛋糕了 大福了其實"},{"start":492.521,"end":506.035,"text":"衛福部這邊說他們也沒辦法檢查所以監察院針對這個問題他提出來的狀態是說針對草莓及食品這樣的一個狀態應該要從原料去做源頭的一個管理請問部長你認不認同"},{"start":507.684,"end":533.471,"text":"我覺得基本上針對這個農產品本身的這些農藥的殘留要分兩個部分源頭管理是非常重要的但是後市場的這些檢查也可以能夠追溯到源頭然後去做源頭的加強管理這是現在的一個機制是 現在的狀態就是因為它變成了即食品之後的時候沒有辦法去溯源追蹤所以說我覺得這邊就出現了一個狀態就是"},{"start":536.488,"end":546.951,"text":"生鮮的草莓的時候它變成了雞食品的時候那衛福部這邊覺得他們管不了那監察院這邊覺得說農業部這邊跟衛福部這邊應該要做比較好的跨部會的溝通那我在這邊可不可以請部長這邊主動積極跟衛福部這邊做一個協調我們要怎麼樣子來做相關的一個"},{"start":559.295,"end":583.926,"text":"就是即食品原料的一個源頭管理還有一個溯源的一個部分不要變成說你變成了一個草莓蛋糕之後你即使草莓蛋糕裡面檢查出來有很多農藥的殘留我們都沒有辦法去做一個要求去做一個檢查那最後一個部分就是針對我們有一個農業部這邊我們允許的一個草莓依草莓為例的時候有119項可是在整個"},{"start":588.65,"end":602.211,"text":"農藥殘留容許量標準裡面的是有五項系並沒有規範在裡頭按照衛福部的標準這五項正常是應該都不能夠查出來的那我們針對這部分我們要怎麼去做處理可不可以請部長做個簡單的回應"},{"start":604.981,"end":617.123,"text":"我跟委員報告因為基本上我們在做農藥的設定的時候是針對病重癌的防治然後這些農藥的高標準是符合人體安全可以吃的"},{"start":621.926,"end":645.42,"text":"那衛護部本身他在食品端的時候他有另外一個標準那後續我想我會跟委員建議所說的我們現在在跟衛護部已經有雙次長會議那雙次長會議在這個包括您現在講的這個議題那我們怎麼樣去做一些本來有列但是沒有列在標準之內的怎麼樣去做一個調和這個部分我想後續我們會來處理"},{"start":646.34,"end":667.645,"text":"好部長因為草莓真的大部分的國人都愛吃啦那生鮮草莓跟草莓的一個即食品這樣的一個狀態的時候我決定要把它做好的一個好好的一個保障不要到時候比方說草莓做成蛋糕做成大福之後的時候都很多的農藥在裡頭那這一定是我們所不樂見的好不好了解好謝謝謝謝謝謝鄭正前委員的資訊"}]}},{"id":"166856","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166856","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f6895d098c89f074c781827afd94ae33312e0cc7d569d1688b210e5aacf32087b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"09:33:04 - 09:37:42","影片長度":"00:04:38","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:33:04+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:37:42+08:00","duration":278,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.56659375,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.8572187499999995,"end":8.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.62034375,"end":27.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.942218750000002,"end":30.945968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.58721875,"end":41.627843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.572843750000004,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.330343750000004,"end":59.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.81909375,"end":63.83534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.02096875000001,"end":69.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.69096875000001,"end":75.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.40721875,"end":78.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.22534375000001,"end":81.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.90846875000001,"end":86.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.03846875,"end":95.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.40409375,"end":107.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.72284375000001,"end":111.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.92909375,"end":114.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.91596875,"end":120.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.29471875,"end":133.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.39409375,"end":134.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.41909375,"end":139.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.13971875000001,"end":146.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.53971875000002,"end":154.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.02784375000002,"end":162.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.70596875,"end":167.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.56596875000002,"end":171.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.39221875,"end":173.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.82659375,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.38721875000002,"end":180.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.20096875000002,"end":189.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.68471875,"end":191.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.27096875,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.37596875,"end":212.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.74034375000002,"end":220.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.85721875000002,"end":221.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.47721875000002,"end":224.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.14346875,"end":227.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.06284375,"end":249.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.76409375000003,"end":251.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.94096875000002,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.69159375,"end":272.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.05159375,"end":278.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.05471875,"end":280.34159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.263,"end":26.476,"text":"主席各位同仁大家好我們今天要討論的是國家安全法本席要先強調說清楚我們大家都支持保護國家安全這點沒有任何爭議但是我要提醒大家一句很重要的就是國家安全的法律如果寫得不清楚本身就會變成國安的風險"},{"start":27.987,"end":53.915,"text":"本席首先要先來談產業面抓間諜的法律不能變成嚇跑企業的法律請大家看一下我們桌上經濟部自己寫的報告經濟部白紙黑字寫得很清楚如果把技術的交付傳遞一併入罪那跨國企業正常的全球分工都可能出問題"},{"start":55.407,"end":75.479,"text":"我再講得更清楚一點我們台灣今天一家科技公司他很可能在美國日本歐洲都有研發團隊工程師每天都在交付資料都在傳遞技術那我想請問什麼叫做正常分工什麼時候會突然變成國安犯罪"},{"start":77.02,"end":95.488,"text":"經濟部自己都說不清楚那企業敢不敢繼續投資敢不敢把研發中心放在台灣留在台灣所以我們是要抓間諜還是要讓企業因為怕踩到紅線乾脆把研發關鍵的研發搬走"},{"start":96.508,"end":120.015,"text":"所以如果因為一部寫不清楚的法律造成了外商撤資本土企業自我限縮這是不是另外一種形式的國安危機第二個本席要再談刑度的設計標準不清楚司法就會亂所以行政院的版本把刑責分成了敵對勢力跟一般外國"},{"start":122.086,"end":136.979,"text":"這個問題來了 現在的間諜不是拿著名片就寫著我是敵對勢力來偷技術他們都是用第三國的公司白手套 中間人那本席要請問一句很關鍵的檢調要怎麼認定 靠什麼標準"},{"start":141.229,"end":161.851,"text":"是看公司設在哪裡股東的結構還是看行政機關怎麼想經濟部的報告完全沒有給答案更嚴重的是現在連營業秘密要不要當成構成要件行政院的版本跟部分執政黨委員的版本彼此都還在打架"},{"start":163.056,"end":191.037,"text":"連行政部門跟委員提案委員自己都還沒想清楚今天為什麼要我們委員會為這樣的法律背書最嚴重的一點已經踩到了言論自由的紅線本席要特別講我們行政院版的第4條這一條不是在處罰間諜不是在處罰泄密而是直接寫不能用文字語言影像聲音去鼓吹支持所以"},{"start":192.369,"end":219.794,"text":"我們在這裡結論很清楚問題不是要不要修而是現在不能這樣再修今天這部法律定義不清楚紅線畫不出來行政部門自己的說法也都還沒整合而且已經踩到了產業司法言論自由的高風險地帶在這種狀況下倉促的審查是對立法院的責任的傷害所以"},{"start":222.503,"end":250.929,"text":"本席也具體的建議我們要先暫緩逐條審查拜託召委折旗這個召開公聽會要邀請誰請邀請科技產業的代表邀請經濟部法務部法律學者以及實務界我們把底下三件事說清楚什麼是正常的商業傳輸什麼叫國安洩密言論自由的紅線到底畫在哪裡"},{"start":252.029,"end":277.315,"text":"所以最後本席說國家安全不能靠模糊的立法來撐場面我們不能為了拚進度修出一部讓企業產業恐慌人民噤聲人民沒有言論自由的法律而且這部法律對國安沒有實質的幫助所以我們不是否決國安我們是要把國安法修好以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166855","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166855","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f5f31e1d5ca8cb034781827afd94ae33312e0cc7d569d1688d43161210f0379b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:28:15 - 09:32:46","影片長度":"00:04:31","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:28:15+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T09:32:46+08:00","duration":271,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.6722187500000001,"end":2.0222187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.73096875,"end":3.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":4.654718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.38034375,"end":25.242218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.64721875,"end":28.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.039093750000003,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.34221875,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.55409375,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.549718750000004,"end":58.469093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.924718750000004,"end":68.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.89784375,"end":84.65909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.24971875,"end":99.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.28971875,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.34346875,"end":108.26721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.97596875,"end":112.08096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.43534375,"end":129.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.90096875,"end":158.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.72346875000002,"end":172.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.81409375,"end":179.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.53034375000001,"end":190.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.19096875000002,"end":197.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.95784375000002,"end":206.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.79596875000001,"end":222.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.78096875000003,"end":259.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.07471875000005,"end":270.41909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.441,"end":24.779,"text":"謝謝主席今天很遺憾又要再次的來針對國安法進行審查但顯然這個好像也沒什麼人把在野黨的訴求當一回事為什麼這麼說呢因為在當初第三會期的時候這個法案並不是沒有進到內政委員會來做審查大家也盡了自己的義務在詢答的時候提出了各自的一個主張"},{"start":25.711,"end":53.58,"text":"但至少那個時候大家還有一個比較好的一個方向這個時候的院版還沒有出來我印象非常深刻本席在當初針對國安法提出質詢的時候還特別就教了法務部的這個黃士傑次長還有陸委會的相關的一些官員大家在討論因為我們那時候看到很多時候是民進黨委員的提案但那時候行政院的意見大多數是見請在佐為什麼要見請在佐呢就是因為比如說法律明確性等等相關的一些"},{"start":54.62,"end":71.657,"text":"配套跟明確性並沒有被清楚的處理嘛所以就是說大家那天就有比較清楚的方向也就是說至少在行政院的院版要能夠解決這些問題的時候大家在進到審查的一個程序那當初我也在質詢的時候非常強力的主張"},{"start":72.598,"end":98.714,"text":"這事情知識體大不能只有立法委員的聲音社會各界包含學界會被影響的各式各樣的人是不是要給他一個機會表達一些他的立場跟顧慮針對充分的社會溝通完成之後再來進行法案的修正當初不管是法務部的回應陸委會的回應也都是正面看待公聽會的請求畢竟一個法案要經過修正"},{"start":100.094,"end":111.802,"text":"廣納社會各界的建言本來就是有必要的他們當初也都說會尊重立法院的決定那很遺憾的是這半年過去了這大家都沒有再提開公聽會的事情嗎"},{"start":112.703,"end":128.743,"text":"其實民進黨的召委也有很多的機會可以來做排案在這中間的任何時間針對一些內容找社會顯達來開公聽會我想在野黨沒有什麼拒絕的理由但今天一提出來然後講說我們可能馬上要進到實質審查的程序那我就覺得是有一點點倉促"},{"start":129.984,"end":142.44,"text":"所以在這邊我們要很客氣的拜託召委啊今天如果可以比較有一個明確的結論也就是在程序發言結束之後如果召委願意做一下宣告做一下調整今天我們一樣進行詢答嘛時間拉長一點都沒有關係嘛把話講清楚"},{"start":145.584,"end":166.189,"text":"但在群談結束之後,我們則其由執政黨、在野黨分別召開公聽會我們讓這個東西經過更清楚的處理之後我想在審查的時候它就會比較順利嘛我也覺得這個是一個比較健康的做法為什麼這是比較健康的做法因為國安法修法知識體大國安國安啊,多少罪惡假這個為名來行之呢"},{"start":166.869,"end":190.255,"text":"最近這段時間大家都清楚啊 朝野氛圍不睦彼此之間毫無互信在野黨依法通過的法案 行政端拒絕執行總統指責我們叫做在野獨裁可是大家今天看一下院版提出來的國安法的草案除了跟當初民進黨委員大同小異之外缺乏明確性 更是各式各樣的行政擴權嘛"},{"start":191.275,"end":203.049,"text":"比如說四字一條這就是大家最焦慮的啊是不是數位終界法捲土重來這個匯土轉生裡面寫內政部可以匯同法務部、訴發部、陸委會還有相關的機關來進行"},{"start":208.508,"end":219.543,"text":"這個處理可以進行屏蔽把這個網站可以做停職解析當初數位中介法去談這個東西不就擔心這樣子行政的擴權會造成實質上的內容審查嗎"},{"start":222.907,"end":243.502,"text":"就是擔心這樣的事情會影響大家的言論自由我提醒一下大家當初數位終界法之所以被擋下來就是因為開了公聽會很多很多被影響的人勇敢的站出來為可能被打壓的言論自由發聲所以最後數位終界法才沒有變成真實"},{"start":244.423,"end":269.209,"text":"今天你只是換一個名字重新出來然後想要用國安為名來搞情緒勒索如果這個時候在野黨沒有表達一下立場沒有要求一下召開公聽會反而是我們對不起選民啦所以我覺得我們今天很客氣的講道理再次這個跟召委溫情喊話一下拜託啦 今天如果大家程序發言完有一個方向 先到巡達開公聽會 再來審查後面才會順利 好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166876","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166876","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fbb0e2bbc7e5fd97691c86f75780029903ec197a1c72cb6c46ddaa78d60d08baa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:13:53 - 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那我們麻煩部長請時部長"},{"start":15.941,"end":33.768,"text":"部長你好我想我們就直接切入主題你們說成立兒家屬是為了建立完整的兒少體系接住每一個孩子但少子化現在已經是國安危機了現在台灣的出生率已經降到0.87了這世界第一低"},{"start":34.588,"end":52.741,"text":"那全世界沒有這樣子的那這涉及的不是久衛福部啊像還有勞動部的工時教育部的那個客戶輔導等等的還有內政部的社宅等等的問題那我雖然看到很多那個那個側翼啊出來幫政府洗地說這個先進國家少子化都是這樣但是我們"},{"start":53.542,"end":74.201,"text":"我們中華民國不是世界第一名的先進國家我們排不上但是我們是第一低的出生率那就不對那就表示我們的政策出了大問題我們不可以推給年輕人年輕人不想生是政策導致他們不想生所以請問一下你們這一次的草案兒家屬這只是行政院衛福部底下的一個三級機關"},{"start":76.002,"end":102.499,"text":"那這個東西能夠解決問題嗎因為一個三級機關他要怎麼樣去指揮勞動部譬如說這個運駕彈性的問題那內政部租金補貼的問題或者是教育部課後輔導師資的問題一個三級機關有辦法去指揮其他部嗎所以我不知道這次草案部長你們還是把他放在三級機關他可以跨部會計解決這些問題嗎 請問部長好 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直無中限在古代叫做卑職無中限在這個時代直無中限那一個署長要跟部長報告事情的時候是以一個卑職的角度去跟他講所以這就是我擔心根本無法解決跨部會"},{"start":233.092,"end":257.708,"text":"照顧小孩是跨部會的問題就你今天把他放在一個衛福部底下三級機關我真的不知道怎麼處理我再跟你們報告你今天需要跨部會的事情就你草案還是放在這麼底下的一個涉罕的機關這會沒有辦法解決這些問題啦那你什麼如果說都叫政委來協調如果政委可以協調我們今天也不用再組織改造了那我先跟你講你看一下鄰近的國家"},{"start":260.014,"end":283.8,"text":"我先跟你講你之前受訪你自己也講過兒童問題涉及學校環境農業需要跨部會協調並非單一機關可以處理您自己受訪都這樣講過所以今天保護小孩真的要跨部會我們看一下日本怎麼做日本他們兒家庭我們是兒家屬差一個字而已但是他們的兒家庭隸屬於首相所以他非常容易的去做跨部會的"},{"start":285.261,"end":311.641,"text":"第二個 韓國 韓國他認為國家已經進入人口緊急狀態所以他設立一個人口戰略企劃部部長是誰 由副總理兼任所以他很容易去做跨部會的協調但是我們台灣 我們現在台灣的狀況比日本 韓國的生育率還低人家是用首相 用副總理層級的人在拼命在救出生育率低 在救怎麼樣去保護幼兒"},{"start":312.441,"end":323.719,"text":"結果我們台灣還是在一個三級機關這就是賴總統口中所謂的重視嗎這就是我一個很大的問題所以我再跟各位報告"},{"start":325.396,"end":342.024,"text":"你看以前我們叫體育署就體育署的運動員要出國比賽做什麼的時候選手培訓要預算都還要再去跟其他部去跟人家要那教育部還要去幫忙去協調這個也就是說所有的預算他部長每個禮拜去跟人家討但是呢"},{"start":343.024,"end":370.656,"text":"分下來之後 倒數就沒有錢所以為什麼我們去年要成立運動部跟我們主席莊委 我們一直努力把運動部成立就是因為要讓他能夠多預算最後我跟你講我們從之前那個凱凱案我們看到一個問題為什麼凱凱案會發生因為保母龜衛福部沒有人去統籌社工 警察那之後 凱凱案之後又還有台南虐童 拖鷹虐童什麼等等案子我們發現一個問題這個就是"},{"start":373.922,"end":396.364,"text":"很多東西歸不同部門管 暴險少年歸司法院學校歸教育部 輔導歸警政署 社工又歸衛福部所以搞到最後這些該被保護的小朋友才被漏掉我想我們最近我們這邊很多合作的單位 有很多民團我們有還想陪你長大聯盟 兒虐林榮忍 同聲同響"},{"start":398.164,"end":417.484,"text":"兒福聯盟 孩子書這些第一線的民團他們有一再的呼籲要有國家級的整合而且他們有一份報告出來這份我也已經給你們了那我希望這個在第一線這些他們所提出來這些需求部長您一定要注意到他們有幾個"},{"start":419.125,"end":446.119,"text":"最簡要的我跟您報告我怕你沒時間看他們要有一個說了算找得到的中央負責人他們要有一袋專屬於孩子的預算而且他們要能統籌警證 護證 設證資料才能夠把孽兒的黑數找出來他們要全國一套的標準不能看小孩子出生在哪一個縣市碰運氣那個縣市有沒有資源而且要銜接法院還有少年的系統希望部長你可不可以在兩週內針對民團所提出來的這個"},{"start":447.639,"end":474.836,"text":"訴求提出具體的回應 可以嗎 兩週內好 謝謝我想這些建議我們都會很具體的來檢視最後送部長一句話啦好的政策要執行才能落實啦那一樣相對的必須透過第一線經驗的回饋才能彌補政策漏洞這些民團第一線給我們的報告 給我們的回應這個是最重要彌補我們政策漏洞的一個重點好 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謝謝主委請金管會主委還有財政部部長那國安會副主委請彭主委 莊部長 高副主委"},{"start":12.182,"end":32.983,"text":"是 三位早安 韓主委我們討論的主題其實在2024年就是我們已經進行討論過了當初每一個部會都有提出自己的方向那現在已經經過一年多了我們今天就來檢驗跟當初的目標差距了有多少"},{"start":33.764,"end":46.458,"text":"首先我要請教那個金管會就是說其實金管會是一個非常慷慨非常大方的一個單位去年實驗你這個大手一揮你把這個投資的上限從10%拉到15%"},{"start":49.281,"end":78.647,"text":"那整體的投資在公建站那個就是在整個公共建設站保險也有可應用的資金的一個限額你看你拉到15%可是這個4.2兆的空白的差距怎麼補上好像政策跟現實有一個平行的時空那增長的速度其實是非常慢的你這個一年只提升到0.05%這是什麼原因呢我想請教主委這是什麼原因"},{"start":79.627,"end":99.873,"text":"跟委員報告你在畫大餅嗎也不是畫大餅因為這也是回應外界的預期就是說其實我們要導引我們的這個受險業資金投資國內我們在政策上必須先做一個宣示所以這個我想10%到15%就告訴我們說接下來我們要長期的做這件事情"},{"start":100.353,"end":125.943,"text":"是當然沒有錯這個距離還很遠但是我們也看到我剛才跟委員報告就是我們現在在國外的投資的比率已經開始在從高點往下降我剛才講說我們前一個年度大概是61點多那現在降到59點多那實際上我們還持續在做因為這個其實上站在金管會保險業資金員他是一個買方"},{"start":127.644,"end":154.777,"text":"買方要有賣方就是說要有那個去路這個去路不是我們能夠你已經給市場一個非常明確的一個導流信號了可是我們在這裡看到了就是說事實上國內的壽險業不管是大額的壽險業還是甚至到小的這一些業者好像沒有看到你這一個天花板的一個政策這個是為什麼"},{"start":156.165,"end":176.001,"text":"這個我倒是要請教主委為什麼那個是財政部沒有趕上來財政部沒有提出比較好的一個牛肉上來嗎是不是這個樣子這也不是只有財政部的問題我想比如說還有哪一個單位我們的公共建設等一下財政部的問題我們再來請教財政部長那你認為除了財政部還有哪一個單位有問題國化會"},{"start":177.402,"end":191.629,"text":"比如說我們講我們的公共建設的本質上有很大的範圍因為我們各個部會都有牽涉到一些公共建設的這個項目那財政部主要是負責他們的其中一部分我想今晚會對於"},{"start":193.429,"end":217.922,"text":"對 所以說我們現在在你講出來就是說這個造言計畫裡頭其實財政部顯然沒有提出比較好的一個促餐的一個方式他的這個促餐的這個比例太低太低了那好 國安會的一個造言計畫顯然都集中在力能那為什麼部長會是這個樣子呢我想聽一聽就是財政部長你的說法"},{"start":218.462,"end":224.185,"text":"是謝謝委員我想保險業資金要投資國內的公建那要有一個很重要就要有一個案源要有案子他才有能夠去投資所以在財政部這個部分呢有一個創新的促餐推動的機制第一個就是我們要擴大案源擴大案源包括就是說各部會未來要提有關公建計畫的時候他在研議的時候就要先優先評估是不是要走促餐而且我們一個促餐專案辦公室來提供諮詢跟輔導"},{"start":245.754,"end":252.617,"text":"也就是說對於能夠透過促參的方式來做公建我今天看到你還特別花了一個新聞稿你說以114年為例就是上類的幾個公建計畫裡頭你成了幾個案子你說你要提出那個案子來讓大家投資"},{"start":269.344,"end":292.291,"text":"那在113年顯然我們從保險業的一個資金跟促參案件的一個統計來看的話全部都是掛零跟委員報告沒有保險業者對財政部沒有信心還是114年簽約案已經達到了100多件我們剛剛報告裡面有那總金額達到3000多億已經有達到超過3300億的簽約金額"},{"start":298.313,"end":308.683,"text":"簽了有沒有執行不然你看你自己的一個這個保險業的一個資金的一個初餐的統計情形來講的話全部都是掛零你1415億的大餅那保險的投資卻是零這個你應該要解釋什麼什麼樣的一個意思那還有就是說我們"},{"start":318.112,"end":334.86,"text":"研讀了財政部你在這個113年度民間參與公建的一個簽約細件的一個明細那我們跟你肯定可是帳面上看來你這個社會福利跟衛生醫療的事件加起來你才是274億佔總體的比例還不到19%為什麼會是這麼低"},{"start":341.983,"end":363.49,"text":"當然我們會請因為各個案源是由各部會的相關計畫裡面來提以及地方政府的一起來提那目前來說我們的畜餐推動辦公室也有對一些重大的案件來做輔導的列管包含社福跟水資源你來做一個說明你提的就是說你最近接到了這一年你接到什麼重大的案子"},{"start":364.15,"end":392.249,"text":"我跟你講長照還有社會福利還有就是社會住宅還有就是那個聯通案鐵路聯通案那個都不是你的你的促餐在哪裡你的促餐的案子在哪裡是 各位原報告就114年簽約的一個促餐案那我們今年的一個促餐案有高雄市的最大的最大的一個案子最大的促餐案是高雄市的AI智能高效焚化爐"},{"start":394.311,"end":417.291,"text":"對 這個多少錢 這個165億165億是你最大的案子喔 是那另外還有一個 市長 你如果可以拿出來說一百六十五億是你最大的案子 然後你這樣就滿足了165億 那你叫受險業者來投這一個的話 你看我們金管會都是那麼慷慨 已經就是把你這個額度就是往上提了啊"},{"start":418.616,"end":436.157,"text":"這個政策的一個引導165億好來那第二大的案子你再告訴我第二大的案子是多少那第二大是台中市的文山焚化廠的一個BOT案不好意思第二大是新竹湖口的大型物流中心的案子是141億"},{"start":438.519,"end":454.125,"text":"所以市長 我想這個顯然你在這個數據上還有政策上其實你還有很大的一個進步的空間一百多億的案子一百多億的促成案你把它列為就是你在一百一十四年裡頭的前兩大"},{"start":457.546,"end":478.14,"text":"這個我都不知道你們財政部部長站在這個地方的時候儘管會副主委還有我們就是儘管會那個主委還有就是我們國發會副主委站在這個地方的時候他們花了那麼大的一個力氣一個製造一個這麼大的一個舞台給你的時候結果你的初餐是竟然是八個月八個月"},{"start":480.35,"end":500.705,"text":"我不知道该怎么样跟那个财政部来检讨这个事情委员我想有关案源的部分我们会积极的来做一个推广的以及扩大那跟委员报告有许多比如像水资源的部分海水淡化厂再生水厂以及社会服务包含长照还有社宅以及农业设施的部分"},{"start":501.125,"end":529.479,"text":"都会去强化然后把案源能够提出来增加明天投资的案源你要强化这当然是最好的可是我偷偷的告诉你一件事情你这一个促参案就是说我们最快的就是从保险业的一个资金就最想引导的就是保险业的一个资金可是从这个1415亿里头的这些案件我们看到财政部的统计啊"},{"start":530.279,"end":555.161,"text":"你在113年是掛蛋那114年你們告訴我說有3000多億這3000多億裡頭我問了司長說你最強的第一個案跟第二個案竟然都是100多億啊這個表示就是說你這些案子其實體質上根本不符合這個保險業者的一個需求那怎麼何來促參呢"},{"start":557.325,"end":573.773,"text":"保險業當然他有投資他有一個選擇那金管會對保險業投資公件的部分已經在法規上做了鬆綁那可以鼓勵保險業的資金投入公共建設他一直在鼓勵你們問題就是說我們最主要就是要提供按援我跟你說部長我到市場我是一個家庭主婦我口袋裝了幾萬塊我要來買菜結果你的菜單都沒出來"},{"start":584.707,"end":610.648,"text":"你菜單連刷出來都沒刷出來我找不到我可以買的這個我可以買的菜色啊所以委員就是要擴大我們的案源你已經擴啦 擴大啦可是你的案源你的案源你沒有認真的去招商啊最大的問題是你沒認真招商啊我們是有每年都會收集各部會以及地方政府他在半年內他要提出招商的案源然後我們召開招商大會同時我們也有"},{"start":614.111,"end":632.579,"text":"出差的IMAP把這樣的商機提供給相關的金融總會以及民間的一個社會大眾知道增加一個投資的議案員我們還是回到就是說你不是收集資訊然後去提供而已其實你還可以做的事情非常多我們也主動的會去做一些輔導以及諮詢"},{"start":635.776,"end":661.737,"text":"我跟妳講啦 看得到吃不到啦這個是真正的一個大的問題啦那國化會也是在這個站內平台的一個總體檢我跟你講你一年只有三篇新聞全部都是還是集中在力能的一個融資上面啦其實可以進步的空間太大了啦我跟你說我不是陳一貞不然這問題丟到陳一貞身上他一定把你罵慘了"},{"start":663.138,"end":682.742,"text":"那個跟委員報告那個造源投資除了透過促參而且促參將來我們專案辦公室會推很多指標型的案件以後會陸續出來都會比較大型的而且我們也透過PE就是INFA PE跟VC的法規鬆綁三個行政部門講我們要"},{"start":685.203,"end":709.614,"text":"要很實際的實際的去推動不要講這個理想金管會已經把大門開了你看他多慷慨對不對財政部跟上來那我們也希望就是說國發會你也要跟上來這個大家其實需要你們的我們南部這麼多的老人我們需要長照我們需要這個社會住宅謝謝委員指教"}]}},{"id":"166874","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166874","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f7ad7f74ccb6f55714473b985e049f91a3ec197a1c72cb6c41563234e73618c5b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:13:05 - 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就是基本費那部長我跟你說為了要抽絲剝繭這件事情我去做了很多研究我就去研究一下說他們陳情因為不是一個農民陳情很多農民都陳情我發現這可能是農業部可以幫忙協助補救是因為當初他們申請他們都是田嘛他們會請水電行來幫忙申請電"},{"start":188.715,"end":204.921,"text":"但是他們可能去申請用電的時候他們便宜形式沒有去申請農業用電他們就用一般用電但當初一般非營業用電的基本費跟農業用電是一樣所以都沒有人感覺"},{"start":206.141,"end":232.832,"text":"但是現在是不是就是農業用電有動漲但是一般用電沒有動漲所以他就被調漲了呢所以本席希望說是不是農業部可以徹查這件事情說假設他的確是農地農用而且呢符合農業用電的資格符合農業用電的資格是不是讓他趕快可以重新申請可能"},{"start":233.692,"end":260.361,"text":"怎麼樣整個重新申請的流程就是只要你真的從事農業所需的用電農業部一定會做協助然後這個部分也不是說某一年就截止了你隨時你有新增的部分都可以去申請都可以重新來申請只要符合相關的規定那我所知道的部分就是農民不敢來申請就是他並不是實際的農用他有時候還拉到別的地方去所以他不敢來申請"},{"start":261.718,"end":289.922,"text":"我目前接到的全部都是農用全部都是田用 你知道灌溉用就是它的水利設施農業用電絕對沒問題我們一定會協助 如果說有這樣的話我想我會請相關的單位再去做一些就是裡面有一個等於是SOP就是說他要申請農業用電要怎麼做好 這個部分我想我們可以同意就是我們會把你在什麼條件之下是可以申請農業用電的我們會透過我們的系統再讓農民知道"},{"start":291.403,"end":314.017,"text":"是不是也可以書面給本席讓我來協助大家宣導尤其部長就是說目前他們我也努力去查查這件事情就是說是不是要經過公所同意因為聽說等於是公所或者是縣市政府的農業單位要去現場查核嗎有需要嗎"},{"start":316.653,"end":345.337,"text":"我這個詳細的部分我想基本上他陸續申請一定是跟台電申請然後台電會去勘查他是不是接到是農業所需的對嘛 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我們再來了解一下因為他現在網頁上的是他的研究報告他當時候會有一個研究報告的建議出來但是後來這個國際上也好或者是我們在ACIP就是疫苗資訊委員會都會有一些新的建議那他可能沒有把它彙整在一起我們再來督促他們來跟上這個看看這個資訊上怎麼樣來呈現"},{"start":362.92,"end":390.265,"text":"另外我要講的就是說我們這個研究中心它算是制度的一個政策的一個制定那實際在臨床上面我覺得我們也需要有這樣的一個這個兒童級的一個健康中心因為實務上這個臨床上所有的這個兒童會碰到的這些疾病我覺得應該也要有這樣的一個單位那在去年的時候我在總諮詢也有針對這一部分有去做個諮詢"},{"start":391.525,"end":412.475,"text":"希望說我們這個衛福部針對這部分應該也要來重視就是有一個臨床上面的這個國家級的兒童健康中心部長你覺得這個是不是有需要跟委員說明就是說我們在國衛院裡面這算是一個智庫的角色對 這個算是一個政策的一個制定它是智庫 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楊九雲發言 邀請部長我們請部長委員好"},{"start":23.787,"end":43.325,"text":"我们来讨论1月2号报导农业部我们农粮署有说为了要提升蔬果农药安全管理所以你今年运用了我们的农业药物实验所研发的植补仪快速筛检的技术在各地来辅导"},{"start":43.965,"end":60.456,"text":"然后由他们来自主检验那来落实检验合格再上市因为现在的民众对于这个安全度啊食安大家是非常重视那所以呢在这个看到统计是112年到114年你已经完成了81490件那你也辅导了7062件那延后来采收换句话说"},{"start":71.764,"end":85.838,"text":"在你的八萬多件裡頭幾乎快要有一層是發覺是有狀態的所以有狀態你請他們延後採收這是對的因為我們一定要合格再上市這個原則"},{"start":87.319,"end":114.407,"text":"那同時你也建構了5台5台的這個質樸快檢行動檢驗車來提供各產地來做服務那所以你也表示了112年到114年3年你們的成果是如此所以必須還要再繼續加強115年度裡頭你們希望能夠將這個提高檢驗量能到5萬件是不是如此"},{"start":115.82,"end":140.416,"text":"是不是如此 是不是增加到5萬件今年度對 就115年度對 希望要有5萬件那所以本校要請教那你要具體怎麼分配因為你說5台嘛那你怎麼分配到各地的產區來確保不同地區這個農民他能夠實際上取得檢驗的這個資源你要怎麼做分配呢"},{"start":140.936,"end":165.309,"text":"我跟委員報告在這個產地源頭協助農民檢測大概分為幾個面向第一個面向就是在產地端那現有的因為我們有22縣市嘛那你只有五台車啊五台車是行動的我先講一下最基礎的限地的檢疫就是已經在地方像合作社廠我們現在大家都在做嘛然後有一些區檢中心也在做"},{"start":166.05,"end":186.052,"text":"然後透過這個行動的止捕儀的快篩車去做串接然後後端是在批發市場所以我們會建構一個所謂的所謂的這個農藥殘留的一個檢錯網絡那行動您所重視的這個行動止捕儀的這個車子就是去做一些鏈接啦那現在有五件"},{"start":186.553,"end":214.912,"text":"你現在回答到這裡就一個重點鏈結很重要因為我們看到你從112年到114年你是8萬件那你115年要5萬件等於你要兩倍半的量人所以本席才會提出你的行動車也沒有增加但是你這個網絡鏈結要怎麼去鏈怎麼可以去結盟起來你的整個的流程要怎麼去做本席認為有精進的空間"},{"start":215.933,"end":220.155,"text":"才能 絕對有齁所以你把進進的這個方案你們把它檢討好也給本席因為你光一年要能夠兩倍半的量人本席希望他不是只有口號而是真的能夠落實而是能夠照顧到所有的食安安全讓賣的人也安心讓買的人也安心讓我們的農民有榮耀這才是我們要的對不對"},{"start":240.725,"end":259.551,"text":"所以你認為有精進的空間所以我們的目標大概是一線式至少要一台直輔儀的快車一線式一線式至少要一台我們有22線式對 所以我們現在準備在提我們的中長城公共建設裡面去做這樣子的設施你把你的方案希望一線式一台把這個方案以及要怎麼樣精進的管道"},{"start":260.391,"end":284.375,"text":"精進的這個方式提交給本席我們希望政策出來就是要落實接下來本席要跟你討論農漁民在年前的時候過年他都需要有有現金小額錢所以你們在114年你首度的來舉辦農民紓困貸款那你也要在今年度當然一定要續辦一定要續辦你的總額是5億每一個人最高10萬元利率"},{"start":289.256,"end":303.568,"text":"是1.915%由原先你114年一年內要完成要還款但是還不了所以你現在從善如流這也是本席所說的我們務必一定要再基層"},{"start":304.929,"end":327.519,"text":"傾聽民意你一年要叫他還 他還不了所以你有傾聽民意這本許給你暫許那你的方式是延長為兩年來還這個錢這個是農漁民非常迫切需要的貴你啊 一定要這麼做所以同時你也透過農業的這個信保基金你說最高可以九成的信用保證來減半"},{"start":329.48,"end":336.225,"text":"寄收的保證手續費那降低申請 申貸的這個門檻但是我們也看到最近地球暖化的這個問題天災地變一大堆我們的農民真的不可確定性太強了在這樣的一個情況之下他很多的貸款他根本還沒有辦法去清償所以本校請問也就是他們面對的這些資金的壓力"},{"start":356.98,"end":363.087,"text":"小額資金但是在農民來看他是非常重要的一個資金要過年過不了年所以我們要怎麼樣協助他我們今年天災頻繁尤其農業的收入也是波動非常的大"},{"start":373.198,"end":385.682,"text":"不是我們的暗算的很多等到要收成像我們上一次的玉米明天要收成今天全部沒有了這個都是不可控的因素太多了所以你要怎麼樣將農民紓困貸款來制度化常態化而且你必須要滾動式檢討通本那麼多你一直只有10萬他怎麼過年請教部長"},{"start":398.342,"end":422.673,"text":"一個部分像委員這邊簡報所列的我們從去年開始就做我覺得獲得農民的好評那有一個重點您剛才說的就是要做滾動檢討的部分那我們今年在10月份其實在去年的10月份做了一些檢討所以我們現在的額度是10萬塊錢那後續如果需要的話我們還可以再做適度的提高那同樣的這一句話就對了部長因為現在通盤很嚴肅"},{"start":427.396,"end":448.876,"text":"所以包括我們的老農今天大家不分藍綠白一定要好好的讓我們的農民可以過活這是我們對農民的一個基本尊重嘛所以這個滾動式檢討務必你每一年要去看每一年滾動式檢討我要謝謝你一定要每一年滾動式檢討這個金額而且每一年續辦是不是可以達得到"},{"start":450.157,"end":466.786,"text":"絕對我們覺得這個因為這個受到農民的好評我們每一年都會辦這第一點第二點就是說有關於貸款規定的部分包括利率包括額度額度申請的條件這個東西我們每一年都會去檢討滾動式檢討每一年要做最後一個議題我給你12月19號我們農業部10月份你推動了動物科學應用3R也就是取代"},{"start":473.409,"end":492.95,"text":"減量 精緻化那到目前為止10年你們是從120萬支降到110萬那大概是9%本身認為這個數量是不美的而且是在你的政策10年如此是達不到你的3R雖然你找了一個理由說你不是用數量"},{"start":494.011,"end":507.223,"text":"來決定你的政策目標但是至少數字可以告訴我們你們現在做到的成效到底是如何所以本期希望這個部分必須要加油我們是要實際上的落實在全國動物科學應用的機構而不是只有口頭講一講不是只有書面的資料 請教部長"},{"start":516.945,"end":532.613,"text":"謝謝委員對這個實驗動物的一個關鍵特別是3R的部分那數字當然可以反映到某個程度的一個成果啦那這個部分從這個數據來看降幅似乎太低了啦對但是他們在前面10年才9%在10萬隻"},{"start":534.534,"end":551.144,"text":"他們是針對精緻化的部分就是說當你動物實驗的時候對於動物的這些保護相關的這些讓它不會很驚恐這個部分的精緻化我們有做到做得非常好但是下一個目標就是讓它用替代的"},{"start":551.584,"end":554.166,"text":"對 不夠啦 部長我們一個結論因為10年從120萬隻降到110萬隻你自己都認為這個酒吧是不夠的本級希望能夠真正的落實在這個機構裡頭那你們的方案要去精緻這個數量以及你們的這個落實程度3R"},{"start":575.302,"end":600.217,"text":"取代減量以及精緻化這必須要去做啊這是政府的政策啊而且現在大家對於我們的這個動物寶貝大家都是我們的毛小孩大家是非常非常的重要跟重視啊對不對這本來就是要以人性化的一個管理嘛對不對同意所以你把你的方案給本席好不好一起加油謝謝謝謝楊兄"}]}},{"id":"166871","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166871","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f2347490dd2fbf62f01bb1e1b9e929a613ec197a1c72cb6c41053e709b707af575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"09:58:06 - 10:12:46","影片長度":"00:14:40","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T09:58:06+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T10:12:46+08:00","duration":880,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.792843750000003,"end":15.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.484718750000003,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.51846875,"end":12.872843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.80034375,"end":18.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.99846875,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.719718750000002,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.15784375,"end":26.085968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.65971875,"end":47.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.19471875,"end":32.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.20909375,"end":50.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.62221875,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.406593750000006,"end":53.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.50971875,"end":68.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.82909375,"end":77.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.52284375,"end":133.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.90659375000001,"end":120.92346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.12596875000001,"end":121.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.74909375000001,"end":130.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.84596875,"end":131.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.58409375000002,"end":141.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.29159375,"end":141.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.40971875,"end":143.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.21534375000002,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.60346875000002,"end":180.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.74534375000002,"end":192.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.72721875000002,"end":189.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.38096875000002,"end":190.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.18221875,"end":203.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.59409375,"end":207.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.66096875000002,"end":241.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.96784375000001,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.64159375000003,"end":276.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.32096875,"end":283.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.91534375000003,"end":281.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.78846875,"end":288.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.01534375,"end":291.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.61409375,"end":294.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.82034375,"end":296.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.98034375000003,"end":301.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.58721875000003,"end":317.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.05721875,"end":355.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.63346875,"end":365.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.70784375000005,"end":380.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.80721875,"end":393.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.42096875000004,"end":399.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.53409375,"end":455.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":454.64346875,"end":470.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.26971875000004,"end":481.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":474.92721875,"end":475.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.09909375,"end":498.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":488.37659375000004,"end":488.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.03409375,"end":493.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.23659375000005,"end":493.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.57409375000003,"end":493.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":498.95721875000004,"end":499.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.44659375000003,"end":509.65596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":499.49721875000006,"end":499.56471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.94284375,"end":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謝謝主席有請次長有請次長"},{"start":18.007,"end":47.47,"text":"委員好次長好謝謝今天特別安排這個偏鄉條例的一個詢答那事實上我們其實在2023年的時候那個時候我們在新聞媒體上看到教育部有表達說會在2024年啟動修法那現在是剛邁入2026年所以想要先請教一下次長就是關於這個修法"},{"start":48.31,"end":68.416,"text":"教育部的态度是怎么样我们其实每年都在开分区的会议每年我们也看到委员提供了很多版本事实上在提供版本之后不管是对师资或者对偏乡学校的一些补助或者条件等等我们其实都一直在透过执法行政措施等等来做精进好"},{"start":68.956,"end":91.503,"text":"那在修法上像委員提到的像有些場所像司馬庫斯那個建築分區其實那個我們也很認同但是我覺得修法有時候反而是反不及急那我們反而會去希望能夠協調地方政府譬如說他在結構安全上他得到一些證書或者是他的安全性都無虞的空間下我們當然會"},{"start":92.603,"end":120.872,"text":"用其他的方式我們會予以協助就是說也把它認定那這部分我想委員的建議我們修法當然是長久的那個制度的設計的考慮就像剛才跟好幾位委員回答事實上我們這幾年來投入大量的資源每年40億不但改善了偏鄉學校的基礎設施對於教師流動率的下降其實也有很顯著的跟一般的地區的教師流動率來比較來講那個偏鄉地區下降的那個幅度是相當大的"},{"start":121.272,"end":142.672,"text":"所以這個也是立了偏鄉條例之後給了資源之後在偏鄉裡面產生的一些改進當然還有很多問題我們透過分區會議來蒐集委員的意見我們也會來參註好 謝謝次長不論講修法緩不濟急還是說到底我們當初立這個法我們想要達成的目標"},{"start":144.173,"end":165.56,"text":"有沒有獲得改善我們不得而知但是我們確實看到很多的條文是形同虛設像大家最愛舉的這個例子也是現場教師很關切的就是一個只存在條文中的專聘教師這四個字真的很多人不理解"},{"start":166.3,"end":190.837,"text":"那我去看了一下文字他文字是提到了最主要的關鍵是由主管機關採公開甄選方式可以禁用代理教師或以契約的專聘教師那麼他的母法裡面也沒有規定說一定要有教師證但是他的聘任辦法有提到有規定要合格教師的資格"},{"start":191.417,"end":206.33,"text":"那這個到底重不重要他們也覺得蠻重要為什麼因為我們看到專聘教師他除了要有合格教師證現分發偏鄉學校他也有晉級制度有考積獎金"},{"start":207.771,"end":223.011,"text":"可以公費進修然後任滿六年可以參加專任教師甄選有加分這確實很好很多人看到這個他是有誘因的但是就是奇怪全台專聘教師的人數就是零"},{"start":223.732,"end":250.095,"text":"那这个零大家也都知道出在哪里就是县市主管机关他没有办公开甄选那你说这些代科老师喜不喜欢公开甄选喜欢因为他们也不喜欢到处奔波他们也喜欢集中考试所以我不太晓得说刚才次长您说了我们有更好的一个解决的方式不需要修法缓不济济那您认为这一条怎么改善"},{"start":250.717,"end":276.698,"text":"其实专聘教师在当年我们那时候都也是立法院在设计的时候其实就会有一些不同的看法坦白讲那现在专聘教师为什么这个制度比较没有在使用的原因是因为地方政府大量是那个正式的缺所以说在偏乡学校过去以代理教师为主的这个教师生态里面其实这几年是有一些改善的就是说他因为用你用正式缺的保障绝对比"},{"start":277.418,"end":295.948,"text":"那个用专聘教师他的这种两年两年这样子的一个制度会比较好其实我会提这个问题您看一下偏乡学士后学分班我们看数据来说话像以110年度来看报名的人数"},{"start":297.029,"end":315.297,"text":"跟正取的人數其實落差還是有的表示不是說隨便報名就隨便可以考上你甚至看到114年度最近的你可以看國立嘉義大學他開一班喔他其實被取是206人錄取50人喔"},{"start":318.18,"end":342.759,"text":"所以这个偏乡学授学分班他是公布应求的在小教的部分是更为明显的可是我们来看现行的时候他有所谓的全额补助三年内要至少在偏乡四学期那么他就要自费的话在同一个县市要满六学期然后待客呢年资还不算要代理教师所以"},{"start":343.419,"end":365.545,"text":"很多的老師他其實是很在意的並不是不在意的所以當這樣的時候我們作為一個教育的主管機關市長您還能夠說修法緩不濟急嗎我想這個有關那個師資培育的部分委員關心的部分我們是不是請那個市長來回答其實委員關心的我們也有待討論好不好"},{"start":367.066,"end":386.489,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,那也因為各位委員的關心,我們在今年度也開設了將近500個名額,那在小教的部分的確是呈現,還有將近900多人。我直接講,其實偏鄉教師他很在意的就是他已經在夠偏遠的地區服務,"},{"start":387.35,"end":405.75,"text":"他很在意能不能去进修能不能公费进修市长你应该明白我的意思所以我们现在有比较友善的方式譬如包括线上线上的课程有二分之一以上我就是要提其实我们都很了解线上对于一个老师的学习来讲"},{"start":406.391,"end":423.423,"text":"其實他不見得能夠有很好的吸收他還是希望能夠好好的去進修所以我覺得站在偏鄉教育品質的一個立場跟偏鄉教師的一個權益我還是希望說修正一下就是"},{"start":423.903,"end":452.009,"text":"不論自費他的就讀資格還是要跟補助生要對齊啊就是例如你說你願意去修在偏鄉三年服務滿四個月四個學期他就可以去或者是說很多的代課老師他其實他的年資如果不採記的話是不符現狀因為偏鄉的代課老師很多都是一個星期超過20節那你至少設一個樓地板面積讓他可以採記那次長"},{"start":452.489,"end":467.26,"text":"这个部分您觉得你愿意来去做修正吗当然可以来修正我想我们现在宗教班的部分其实就降了两个学期就是也是因为委员还有一些地方的反应所以我们也根据报名人数 录取人数跟需求我们有做一些"},{"start":468.141,"end":487.769,"text":"做一些条件的一些好那我还是希望拿到报告因为大家在这边听就是希望能够解决改善那像刚才您提到我一直长期关心的偏乡教育条例第12条我希望能够参考长照服务机构的一个许可及管理办法第16条"},{"start":488.709,"end":517.891,"text":"用安全结构我要跟市长讲您说的缓不及急这个我们会不我五年前就进入要帮忙要修法一直没办法我也去县政府我也跟局长他们说要帮忙五年了我今天早上打电话给他们他们说他们今天两度气温两度斯马库斯的孩子你可以看照片不少他们到现在都是黑学校"},{"start":519.527,"end":545.3,"text":"都是一个不合法的学校那我觉得一个不合法的学校如果有一天他们真的发生了什么事情我们教育部情何以堪我想委员可能有误解我想反不及己是说我们当然12条修法的这个方向我们是同意的是支持的但是就是说现在要解决现场目前的问题我们可以内政部今天好像也有代表过来对"},{"start":546.921,"end":566.481,"text":"也许有一些条文大家有意见但是有一些没有意见的条文形同句文的我其实都觉得可以修那最后我就是要提到偏乡九任奖金因为代理教师有了专辅老师有了社工也有了但是学校里头的教练啊护理师啊"},{"start":567.509,"end":584.444,"text":"真的情何以堪我真的是希望說如果我們能夠有一個法源的一個依據在偏鄉教育條約裡面我相信大家都很願意一同的來為這些偏鄉努力久任的這些教職教育人員"},{"start":585.405,"end":613.707,"text":"不是教職還包括教育人員其實護理是公有大家都是學校的教育人員那希望呢能夠一同的讓他們在那個地方好好的服務但是我最近接到很多陳情因為年底有一些縣市發公文他說滿8年的計算是到114年12月7號問題是很多校長的調動是7月31號到期那8月1號要調到其他的學校已經飛偏了"},{"start":614.207,"end":635.368,"text":"又或者是老師呢他65歲退休了就差那麼幾天幾個月就沒有辦法領到9任獎金當然我不贊成因為這個制度的設計是為了要9任像那種調動的你說要去追溯他的比例我不贊同因為我們就是希望他滿8年嘛但是像這種特殊狀況不可抗力的"},{"start":638.05,"end":653.317,"text":"那導致他無法差幾天 差幾個月他沒有辦法領到九任獎金我不曉得次長您的看法如何能不能夠去按年資領取部分比例的九任獎金這個可以來研究啦我們來研究好 謝謝特殊的個案我們來研究"},{"start":655.638,"end":670.28,"text":"那最後一個就是偏鄉教育條例的第19條有提到要編列預算辦理偏遠地區學校教育狀況調查研究然後每三年要辦理全國偏遠地區的教育會議那我就直接講"},{"start":671.561,"end":698.695,"text":"因為我要質詢我要調資料我調不到關於偏鄉的代理教室的數據這個應該就是沒有依照第19條去做這樣的調查所以我覺得這個部分如果我們連偏鄉學校的無證代理的比例人數都沒有辦法掌握我不曉得說我們偏鄉教育條例要怎麼樣去檢討做出符合我們要的教育政策"},{"start":699.375,"end":717.535,"text":"所以在這裡我還是希望說能夠每兩年定期辦理偏遠地區教育的狀況調查然後資料有學歷表現學習資源師資流動學生流動文化融入社區參與等等指標然後建立一個偏鄉教育的公開"},{"start":718.976,"end":735.718,"text":"以表版或推動偏鄉資料的開放研究計畫或者發展偏鄉教育的指標系統那我這個部分是我的訴求那我知道質詢時間已經不夠了那我希望這個就次長您簡單回答該不該做好"},{"start":736.058,"end":755.865,"text":"其實在偏鄉交易會議裡面我們不管是分區或者三年一度的會議裡面那個資料都會在開會裡面來呈現那有些沒有公開的這個沒有在儀表板裡面特別去標註偏鄉一方面也是擔心說這個會有一些標籤的問題就是說我們希望但是至少我要質詢我就要不到資料"},{"start":756.758,"end":778.078,"text":"可以可以要到我们刚才包括那个统计处的那个我们刚才提到那没有关系就给我一个书面报告那我还是要最后做结论就是我长期强调偏乡教育真的根本之道就是在地人才在地培育在地长期留用我真的我真的这是我的"},{"start":779.179,"end":807.404,"text":"我們現在會往這個方向來做真的需要這樣子那我真的很希望就是我們可以新增第六條之一之類的就是跟地方的大學設一個偏鄉在地師資養成班優先的錄取在地青年結合在地的實習就業的留任保證我希望我們偏鄉不是只有讓老師來而是自己培養出來我覺得這才是根本之道也是當年"},{"start":808.064,"end":832.687,"text":"要開始推動偏鄉教育條例當時我還是一個偏鄉的老師校長我當年就是一直這樣訴求我認為要這樣子做這個偏鄉教育缺乏老師的困境才有辦法解決好不好謝謝委員的建議其實現在屏東大學那邊也有這樣的專班謝謝那個是我很高興的那個也是我爭取的但是我是希望說能夠全面來做"},{"start":834.088,"end":850.361,"text":"那因為最近中央總預算還在卡關那財化法也卡關我是代替很多縣市政府學校在問就是三張EQ啊還有有機食材這些那學校你們有沒有掌握到各地學校的狀況"},{"start":851.581,"end":880.361,"text":"细节我请那个署长我们其实是已经都跟地方有谈过了大概也从他们预算里面看出有些县市的编列的状况那么也在协助地方的相关的单位里面跟地方政府要求那还是说明一下因为很多学校就是有点紧张简单的讲我们会去用114年的预算做对照如果有差额的部分我们会新闻给他那个编列数请他们做垫付好谢谢谢谢市长署长谢谢主席"},{"start":881.567,"end":882.396,"text":"谢谢武力华"}]}},{"id":"166884","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166884","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f4bd59146952ac58a91c86f75780029903ec197a1c72cb6c43696169a3617e29d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"10:27:55 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我這成立俄少族那邊的事不要找我客廳喔不然請問你現在這個客廳看你做什麼"},{"start":159.775,"end":180.05,"text":"就這個事情你身為部長就把這個事情要釐清你也知道過去發生很多事情就是說告訴大家大婚的時候連理發委員會現在也不清楚就是說這是那個單位那個單位那個單位第二個成立這個署以後有沒有從教育部移任何的業務過來"},{"start":181.836,"end":195.676,"text":"目前的規劃沒有好 原來沒有 就現在都沒有移新的過來嘛沒有沒有好 那所以原來教育部跟衛福部啊關於兒少的部分中間切的那一條線以後不會有問題啊"},{"start":199.104,"end":215.24,"text":"比如說我們現在對這個托嬰托育三歲以下就是在衛福部然後三歲以上的在教育部目前是這樣的切法所以未來這個署成例也是用這樣的做法來進行所以"},{"start":215.885,"end":237.979,"text":"民眾要分得清楚就對了 兒童有分三歲以下 也有分三歲以上三歲以上的兒童的保護是相關 保護還是在 保護相關你給他教育部是怎樣 找就是說有一個四歲的小朋友 他一年後去幼兒園 叫他安娜 這相關"},{"start":241.802,"end":260.34,"text":"相關的直接的保護的業務在我們但是機構的管理的部分我們會跟教育部一起來你說這樣就很含糊了好不好 我說七歲啦 小學生啦小一 小二吃好 去用霸凌"},{"start":261.691,"end":266.597,"text":"回去跟家人 因為只好去跟爸人回去幾星期他們老伯老婦看了幾星期 怎麼都這樣?有的老伯老婦就去問阿豪有的老伯老婦問孩子說 你如果打架這樣是要給他們收罰繼續再打"},{"start":277.659,"end":280.942,"text":"那又要撐兩條事情嘛 對不對一直處理 去弄壞的家中的部分現在聽起來幾年關了現在如果是學校 去給同學大家玩遊戲 怎麼去塞 去丟箱這還要整個教育部關了"},{"start":293.454,"end":311.602,"text":"像這樣的案例很清楚對個案的保護 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對不對"},{"start":130.397,"end":146.456,"text":"本來營業人月均營業額20萬以上就要繳5%營業稅是不是好那現在呢你們讓這個小店家如果他使用行動支付加上多媒體的服務機就是可以自助找零自助收銀的那你在80萬的月均營業額給他租稅優惠1%是不是這樣"},{"start":149.144,"end":176.5,"text":"那這樣不是有些稅損嗎人家80萬的營業額要繳5%啦你給他1%目的是怎樣希望這些眾多的小小的年輕人他開的店未來可以長成很多的小雞店未來他營業額超過百萬繳5%是不是我們收得更多當然我們希望發展得更好是的 所以我覺得財政部用租稅手段讓民間長富於民讓未來的納稅人有更強的繳稅能力這就是我們財政部的租稅的思考嘛"},{"start":178.207,"end":193.202,"text":"我們其實投資的思考嘛對 像產算條例裡面都有很多相關的一些這就是對投資未來的納稅人有助於擴大我國未來的稅源好不好 OK 往下看來 有人提出了欸 民進黨提出了新生和帳戶"},{"start":194.323,"end":211.648,"text":"藍白也領先對白說包括我們的這個他們說蕭瑩有希望帳戶郭國榮有登大郎ETF然後呢藍白提出未來帳戶這些都是由政府來投資到未來的國民這些國民長大後有工作能力有收入後會不會貢獻稅收長大後他們就是就可以去那是義務人嘛所以投資未來的國民新生代很重要嘛"},{"start":221.483,"end":247.757,"text":"對他們的投資就是培養未來的稅金你同意嗎國民都可以是那我們往下看其實呢川普也是這樣說在美國他認為呢在這個年期當中美國政府給他一千美金然後呢他未成年子女呢就可以去投入這個指數型基金不過美國的做法父母每年要再存五千未來成年會運用教育手工跟創業你覺得川普這個做法也是在投資美國的未來"},{"start":250.078,"end":266.386,"text":"他有川普的做法 是 那台灣的川普呢川普的帳戶我們看一下喔台灣的川普帳戶呢 是白吃的午餐 我們看一下今天問了問卷 這是自由時報的問了他說 戰不贊成成立一個類似的川普帳戶政府提供的金額讓孩子呢 為下存他未來 有人贊成"},{"start":267.506,"end":284.566,"text":"可以提高生育率將近15%有人說金額要小才不能亂花納稅錢但是有人說有條件贊成只能對經濟弱勢但是有很多人是反對相信四分之一的人說這是變相花錢這種資源有限去造成財政負擔請問財政部你看了一下你會是贊成還是反對還是有條件贊成"},{"start":286.886,"end":291.468,"text":"我們報告目前來說有一個兒童及少年未來教育局發展帳戶那未來要怎麼樣去做要調整是不是要擴大那目前來說已經在跨部會的討論當中了好 但是我們看起來一般的民眾不是很了解情況之下多數是持保留態度啦那我個人呢是有一個想法待會要請我們這個彭主委跟我們的副主委跟高副主委一起來思考來我們往下看"},{"start":314.093,"end":342.894,"text":"我剛剛說了 比台積電還貢獻國庫貴多的是什麼是中央銀行中央銀行持有超過六千億的美金的外匯存底是全世界第四 僅次於中國 日本跟瑞士這六千億的外匯存底一年可以貢獻多少給我們國庫的稅務部長你知道嗎中央銀行對 中央銀行的美金繳酷大概差不多兩千億兩千億 兩個台積電可是我們問一下中央銀行它是目的是要來增加我們稅務它的貢獻啊 占我們國家一成的稅務啊"},{"start":344.38,"end":360.464,"text":"很可觀啊但是我們想想看我們問過央行總裁啊他說你這個東西可不可以拿來外匯存體拿來做啊他說可以啦不宜由外匯存體直接無償撥用但是相對的有償借用可以考慮吧這是央行的說法你知道嗎好來彭主委我們現在請教你了來我們常常說"},{"start":367.813,"end":390.244,"text":"人生第一桶金啊 有沒有聽過指南宮這個指寫錯了 手指頭有指有沒有聽過指南宮的發財經 有你有沒有投資 沒有 我不是說投資指南宮啦有沒有聽過你去指南宮借發財經有有 也是新聞上看到過 對 為什麼因為他跟神明借了一筆錢 跟廟借了一筆錢他回去投資賺錢 他拿來貢獻嘛"},{"start":392.125,"end":421.212,"text":"其實剛剛講的川普的一個賬戶希望的賬戶 外來賬戶它是人生的周轉金是我們國家先把未來的還沒收的稅收先預借出來投資給下一代我們來看一看我舉個做法如果是全民的外匯存底由政府把它借出來然後呢撥給我們的民眾1到18歲讓他繼續進行投資投資什麼TESA投資TESA你這樣不贊成當然當然贊成嘛只是TESA現在規模多少"},{"start":422.119,"end":443.664,"text":"現在TESA我們第一階段剛剛有報告過差不多接近百億一百億啊央行一年就一千億啊所以我們看看如果他央行不要拿多拿一些來讓我們的年輕人下一代他長大之後他拿到這個TESA的收益他可以做這些事情而當他投資了自己之後三十歲之後他可以創造稅收你覺得有沒有可能"},{"start":444.344,"end":470.427,"text":"其實我們的想法比這還多一點因為除了是對個人以外因為主要像比如日本它在發展NISA很重要是它是要壯大他們的資本市場然後進入產業投資我想這個大概有很多從業除了增加個人的第一桶金的儲值以外很重要讓它進入到資本市場支持經濟發展主委我知道你有一個很大的架構我簡單講"},{"start":471.548,"end":491.569,"text":"如果說今天央行貢獻從兩千億的稅路他少五百億就好了這五百的稅路他減少他減少他美債的持有他買我們國庫券跟他用國庫券跟他借 低利跟他借他每年可能少貢獻國庫一點點的稅路但是這個借出來的錢"},{"start":492.984,"end":517.032,"text":"我們發行長年期國債然後這個國債我們用來進行TESA的複利投資為我們的每一個國民 新生國民投資只要未來他成年後 獲利給他本金歸還央行你覺得國庫有增加支出嗎央行有沒有錢借給你 本金我收回來啊那利息呢 利息照算 我算給你看"},{"start":518.547,"end":544.589,"text":"今天假如這種TESA的每個月定期定額1000年化報酬率6%持續20年它可以累積到46萬2000我們的本金24萬還給央行負利的獲利就22萬2如果不是1000是1萬的話這個就變成222萬以上是不是這樣子所以有沒有給國民第一桶金人身周轉金"},{"start":546.239,"end":549.529,"text":"國家有沒有支出 有還啊什麼時候還 20年後還"},{"start":552.008,"end":574.86,"text":"那國庫怎麼跟央行借外匯用國庫券來往下看我算給你看齁去年11萬的新生兒我們如果這樣的做法一年要1萬2持續20年每年要花264億如果說我們拿現在央行外匯存體美債的短年期的4%跟我長年期的國債券2%它的利差它會損失多少央行會少腳庫1億5而已啊2000億少個1億5"},{"start":579.602,"end":591.348,"text":"我們國庫要付多少利息給他要付五億二二十年我們國庫幫這樣的人身周轉金的第一桶金我們每年幫他付五億二的"},{"start":592.216,"end":618.765,"text":"利息 央行少繳庫每年少繳庫1億5結果我們可以跟央行拿出264億來投資TISA主委有沒有比你現在100億的規模還大那當然我們現在只是在初始階段剛剛委員提到一個很好的構想就是我們用資本市場利得去支付一個固定收益的成本那個差額就是它的增值來 告訴主委接下來是有你的事情了"},{"start":619.793,"end":634.439,"text":"我們現在往下一頁其實目前國發會思考的都是用總體經濟的角度來看但是總體經濟是建立在個體經濟的成長上面如果說我們每一個國民我們要一年才十萬個新生兒"},{"start":635.461,"end":657.058,"text":"每年20年每年每10萬個新的國家都要投資用什麼方式用財政部國庫券跟央行借外匯存底20年要還他本金收益就是這個20歲成年人他的第一桶金讓他有10年的時間投資自己讓他30歲之後創造更多的稅收給我們的財政部"},{"start":658.41,"end":683.478,"text":"主委副主委部長你們覺得這個構想可不可以去思考一下因為其他任何的做法都會涉及到家庭經營的能力如果比照川普的做法優勢家庭可以幫助你存更多如果用台灣的做法家長不存人家說是白吃的午餐但是我們這個做法國庫暫借錢跟國庫跟央行的外匯存你借了一筆錢"},{"start":685.104,"end":710.355,"text":"每個月負利息用了20年產生的負利收益給20歲成年的年輕人然後本金歸還這樣的一個預借下一代的稅收創造下一代的稅收每年腳庫的國庫的稅收收益才少那麼一點點有沒有看到央行把外匯存底借給國庫來做這個事情他每年的腳庫盈餘啊 只少一點點"},{"start":711.803,"end":729.788,"text":"副主委有沒有聽懂了不好意思我這樣有點不太禮貌有沒有理解了我想我大概知道可是因為我想委員的想法非常有創意可是這個涉及到央行還有財政部我知道因為央行不是在今天才問不然他就第一個反對了副主委最後要你承諾了來 下一頁"},{"start":733.089,"end":750.783,"text":"所以請評估外匯存體有償撥用每月挹注新的帳戶至成年該帳戶的資金投入TESA累積福利財富並用於其成年後歸還本金的可行性國發會可不可以做一下我先問一下彭主委如果這個做了來壯大TESA你知不支持"},{"start":752.123,"end":771.594,"text":"每年多二百六十四億來壯大TESA值不值得那當然這個主要是當然支持謝謝來我們現在高副主委是朝這個方向走高副主委可以嗎可以做得到嗎一個月內我們一個月提出書面報告好謝謝那部長您今天可以回去安心可以好好的微笑著入眠幫你的未來三十年國家投資未來的納稅人謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166882","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166882","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468ffcb37bf66b14f0884ffe983b246f8b263ec197a1c72cb6c432fe287ba23c3e1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:28:24 - 10:30:53","影片長度":"00:02:29","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十一) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十八) 委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十九) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十一) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十二) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十三) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二十四) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n【第一、三（四）及三（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查；第三（六）案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T10:28:24+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T10:30:53+08:00","duration":149,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.755968750000001,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.205343750000004,"end":88.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.90721875,"end":96.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.92721875000001,"end":99.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.52159375000001,"end":121.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.39159375000001,"end":134.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.48659375,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.12596875,"end":150.26909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.975,"end":22.529,"text":"主席各位委員大家早安首先先謝謝昭偉今天安排生權法的逐條審查更要謝謝在這一路上不斷給予我建議想法跟我討論的生長朋友跟生長團體我們一起為生長權益努力"},{"start":23.149,"end":51.3,"text":"身權法已經多年沒有大修從我們接受身心障礙者權利公約首次國家報告國際審查的時候提出多項結論性意見要求我國進一步落實平等不歧視自立生活跟人身安全保障等核心精神就一直有全面檢討與修正的必要本次修法我聚焦在以下幾點第一強化政府責任跟跨部會整合"},{"start":51.9,"end":69.066,"text":"因應身心障礙者在資源可靜性無障礙環境生活支持及自立生活上的需求重新檢討中央跟地方主管機關以及各目的事業主管機關之全責分工二 落實權力公約精神保障參與與平等"},{"start":70.606,"end":86.741,"text":"修正相關委員會的組成確保以身心障礙者為主體保障其資訊的禁用與表譽權三 建立反歧視跟救濟機制明確定義身心障礙者歧視行為作為民事求償及訴訟輔助之基礎四"},{"start":89.946,"end":110.694,"text":"完善的无障碍与资讯禁用环境扩大公共资讯无障碍范围网路通讯智慧型手机装置第五保障就业交通与生活支持的权益修正定额禁用的一个计算方式增加用人弹性扩大就业基金用途六"},{"start":111.394,"end":134.254,"text":"加強福利機構的管理跟人身安全保障建立機構負責人消極資格制度強化通報義務與裁罰的機制對重大不當的對待行為加重處罰並確保受安置者及時轉介跟保護本次修法以身心障礙者權益為核心回應國際審查的意見"},{"start":135.835,"end":146.166,"text":"补强制度的缺口并兼顾实务可行性期待我国身心障碍者权益保障法更加完善也希望今天的审查可以顺利我们一起加油谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"166881","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166881","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fd60d94e4749a35774ffe983b246f8b263ec197a1c72cb6c41445c6f97c71b35d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:25:41 - 10:27:58","影片長度":"00:02:17","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十一) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十八) 委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十九) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十一) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十二) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十三) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二十四) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n【第一、三（四）及三（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查；第三（六）案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T10:25:41+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T10:27:58+08:00","duration":137,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.46846875,"end":42.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.69096875,"end":97.09596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.90596875,"end":104.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.70659375000001,"end":123.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.55596875,"end":134.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.81159375000001,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.65534375000001,"end":136.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.00534375,"end":138.64221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.117,"end":27.412,"text":"謝謝主席 各位夥伴大家好本席在提出這個身心障礙權益保障法的這個增訂40條之一的修正草案那目的最主要是在補足我們長期忽略的一個關鍵制度的缺口也就是身心障礙者在職場中的一個資訊禁用權"},{"start":29.073,"end":47.825,"text":"那麼隨著資通科技快速的這個發展那麼政府機關跟公營事業大量仰賴資通系統來處理公務那麼科技應用已經成為衡量工作表現的一個重要的條件那麼現行的法制呢雖然要求一定的比例來禁用身心障礙者"},{"start":48.806,"end":64.293,"text":"但沒有同步要求職場資通系統具備無障礙的設計導致許多身心障礙者進入職場之後因為系統的不友善沒有辦法充分發揮工作能力甚至喪失就業機會"},{"start":65.994,"end":80.01,"text":"聯合國身心障礙權利公約已經在我國具有一些法律的效力那麼在27條也明確的要求國家保障身心障礙者在平等基礎上享有公平且良好的工作條件"},{"start":80.751,"end":96.828,"text":"但是我們目前沒有在就業環境的資通無障礙這個部分做比較詳盡的一些設計所以來建立明確的法律義務也沒有完全落實公約所揭示之平等工作權的保障意旨"},{"start":97.95,"end":119.759,"text":"因此這個本案在增訂事實條之一明定各級機關政府機關還有公立學校及公營事業機構要提供身心障礙者執行業務所需之友善之通系統讓身心障礙者不是只有被禁用而是能夠真正在制度的支持下來參與成長並貢獻專業"},{"start":123.661,"end":133.892,"text":"以上的說明呢 希望各位同仁能夠支持讓這項促進平等就業資通訊禁用的人權保障制度得以落實謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166880","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166880","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f00ecd1ececf974644ffe983b246f8b263ec197a1c72cb6c4ebbb860637a5fd565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:23:38 - 10:25:35","影片長度":"00:01:57","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十一) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十八) 委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十九) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十一) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十二) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十三) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二十四) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n【第一、三（四）及三（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查；第三（六）案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T10:23:38+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T10:25:35+08:00","duration":117,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.308468750000001,"end":35.502218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.09284375,"end":114.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.85659375,"end":117.53159375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.09,"end":0.472,"text":"做说明"},{"start":7.131,"end":34.861,"text":"感謝昭緯今天的安排那三年前障礙者團體們組成障礙者黑紙革命聯盟提出身心障礙者權益保障法的修法的時候我就跟夥伴們一起合作提出了民間版的草案那上一屆我們一度在未還委員會進入實質審查但很可惜沒有完成那這一屆因為屆期不連續又重新來過那今天要再次感謝劉建國昭緯的排審"},{"start":36.201,"end":53.111,"text":"去年選舉我認識了陳俊翰律師之後很多次跟他在同台的場合常常跟他聊到他的國際經驗跟台灣的處境那我非常記得他說在台灣身心障礙者的權益就像在第三世界國家"},{"start":54.512,"end":76.946,"text":"那後來很遺憾他離開了也確立了我在這一屆的立法院內一定要努力完成他的遺願的決心喔所以呢我在這一屆的立委任期的第一次總質詢就是問院長帳權法那謝謝院長的承諾那我成立的為下一代而戰連線也把帳權法列為優先法案那很高興今天有實質審查"},{"start":77.827,"end":105.226,"text":"那我想今天最重要的是我們要跟上CRDP的國際公約要落實由障礙者本人自己做決定的精神那我的版本重點就是有障礙者參與決策提升比例建立障礙者諮詢機制明定禁止直接或間接歧視提升障礙者權利保障受教育就業文化參與就近就醫公平審判司法禁用還有很重要的落實自立生活"},{"start":105.846,"end":113.872,"text":"納入服務的可進行可負擔性原則那今天待會的審查那我希望大家可以支持我的版本以上謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166879","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166879","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468feee0c538ad717f1a4473b985e049f91a3ec197a1c72cb6c4f6bc0ca9412fb4e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:20:02 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我聽到聲音了不要跟他講話也不一定聽我的好 來 謝謝主席請時部長好好"},{"start":17.475,"end":35.505,"text":"部長來我就直接切入重點了這個兒家屬我已經知道你們花了很多力氣來那我直接先幫你找到一個我們目前收集到的bug是這樣部長你一定知道有所謂的重症兒對嗎對那重症兒現在的困境是這樣我們台灣在18歲以下的身心障礙人數目前的統計大概是57000人"},{"start":36.966,"end":62.421,"text":"其中零到十八歲的重症兒就佔了一萬五千人這個比例相當的高而這些孩子們他們的需求有哪些鼻胃管啊抽膝因此他們的爸爸媽媽基本上在醫療照顧教育經濟喘息的方面呢來來去去非常的辛苦那我知道我們的相關部會已經努力提供很多資源可是因為過去我們沒有把重症兒這件事情呢故意凸顯出來特意凸顯出來"},{"start":64.242,"end":88.141,"text":"過去大家對重症兒的想像是把他顧好活下來就好可是現在有越來越多的家長他告訴你孩子有能力求學的我們希望他去學校然後家長有能力繼續工作的讓他去在經濟方面有所成長所以我們後來現在就發現我相信部長你一定知道照顧資源分散行政部門分工不清法規解釋不清所以有非常多重症兒的家庭他們其實在過去有非常多困境來第一個"},{"start":89.71,"end":113.419,"text":"特教生 就所謂的孩子 0到18歲他到學校去 他有抽膝的需求那有些人說可以 有些人又說不可以法規解釋不清 行政部門分工不明到底是老師來做 助理員來做 還是護理師來做還是家長自己去做 甚至有的家長他被老師無理的要求說 就算我做過訓練我也不敢做 因為我怕小孩在學校出了什麼事 所以乾脆叫小孩不要來上課"},{"start":114.459,"end":134.909,"text":"這個案子我相信你一定知道而且不是只有一個非常多這樣的案子第二種案例是什麼呢小孩的失能程度符合最嚴重的長照第八級每個月可以獲得三萬六千一百八十塊的補助但很可惜很多照服員他就算受過訓練他也不敢不願意不能不想去照顧這些十八歲以下的重症兒童"},{"start":135.95,"end":161.939,"text":"部長我們未來在兒家屬我本來以為我們有機會在這個部分看見兒家屬對於所謂0到18歲重症兒的照顧但確實我們翻開相關的法規我其實還是有點擔心所以部長我們提出一些解方的可能性在去年的12月4號由台大醫院呂律醫師我相信你一定認識還有重症兒360發展協會我們做了一個台日交流現場有30多個醫療專業團體還有家長團體"},{"start":165.66,"end":186.25,"text":"然後感謝衛福部有派員出席教育部也有派員出席他們傾聽了非常多的意見當天呢開完會之後我跟王振旭委員一起開這個會我們也發了一個聯合公文到你們衛福部去很多的內容在我的投影片上我就不細念要日後我們再來討論好不好我就不再用時間但是有一個事情最重要"},{"start":187.687,"end":205.877,"text":"現在有沒有可能在我們相關資源盤點的過程當中回到衛福部的組織法來修法我們希望把這個部分加上去就是醫療照護健康促進心理健康促進跟家庭支持服務事業甚至可以有一個第七項建立重症兒童家庭主管機關專責諮詢個管中心單一窗口"},{"start":210.665,"end":225.351,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這個窗口應該在哪裡對這個服務最好我們可以來討論不過呢關於醫療照護的政策一定會納入在這個兒少署裡面我相信這個我對你有信心政策上會放進來"},{"start":226.051,"end":250.693,"text":"對我對你有信心但是實務上在操作的時候那個窗口要放在哪裡當然我們來討論看看而且其實剛剛很多委員提到當0到18歲小孩他有就讀的需求然後他有照顧的需求緊急救護的需求這些需求如何在兒家屬的這個定義跟組織的功能當中去做一個想像可能大家比較多期待還是放在你們身上不會放在教育部身上不知道你認不認同"},{"start":252.428,"end":258.81,"text":"我們願意擔起來只是說放在什麼地方啦這個我們之後再來討論這個我們再來討論好不好謝謝部長這一題就先這樣那我們之後持續來討論再來有一個陳情趕快跟您說因為我們不希望他持續的發燒"},{"start":270.994,"end":283.328,"text":"雙核醫院遷移例行檢測破損建議要汰換可是半年過去沒有任何改善的措施在去年的11月FB有一個靠北護理師裡面有一篇發文他說我們雙核醫院用來做輻射防護的遷移經過檢測都確認破損而且應該要汰換了可是院內的管理職卻說還堪用"},{"start":291.997,"end":321.42,"text":"一直到上個月就有吹哨者來請跟我們澄清希望我們可以積極的協助我們來看一下相關資料去年下半年的檢測中間綠色那一欄是檢測結果是破損的部分可以看到破損的部分其實還不少那進一步看檢測的細節下一張已經不是一兩件的裝備而是大半的防護千一在檢測後都已經確認為破損高風險並且建議汰換可是一直到上個月我們收到澄清都還是沒有改善"},{"start":322.08,"end":338.136,"text":"那我不知道是因為雙核醫院發生了什麼事情還是我們現在有沒有一些醫院有些這樣的狀況我就快速跟部長報告一下那我們辦公室後續會再請衛福部自己的協助好不好好 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T10:13:02+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T10:24:57+08:00","duration":715,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.48659375000000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.6215937500000001,"end":2.3934687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.10221875,"end":3.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.050968750000001,"end":9.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.910968750000002,"end":12.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.138468750000001,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.813468750000002,"end":17.867843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.90159375,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.918468750000002,"end":18.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.660968750000002,"end":37.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.671593750000003,"end":31.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.39721875,"end":32.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.62846875,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.69409375,"end":78.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.16659375,"end":83.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.99721875,"end":81.53721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.26284375,"end":85.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.84909375000001,"end":85.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.65471875,"end":110.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.01721875000001,"end":89.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.46221875,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.41034375000001,"end":115.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.96721875,"end":111.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.90784375000001,"end":180.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.92659375000001,"end":127.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.11221875,"end":128.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.50159375,"end":147.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.30284375000002,"end":150.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.48784375000002,"end":187.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.12034375000002,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.58409375000002,"end":194.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.97534375,"end":194.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.75159375,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.76846875,"end":194.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.07409375,"end":223.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.03409375,"end":227.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.72159375,"end":226.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.26971875,"end":228.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.01221875000002,"end":263.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.03659375,"end":234.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.58471875000004,"end":342.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.21721875000003,"end":320.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.69909375000003,"end":383.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.82909375,"end":347.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.70909375,"end":360.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.31534375,"end":367.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.16096875000005,"end":395.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.58096875,"end":398.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.80409375000005,"end":407.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.93346875000003,"end":411.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.00471875000005,"end":432.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.05096875000004,"end":413.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.97409375,"end":418.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.59784375000004,"end":424.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.67659375000005,"end":433.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.99284375,"end":433.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.41471875,"end":480.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.52409375,"end":462.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.49159375000005,"end":548.249093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請江廖次長請江廖次長"},{"start":14.158,"end":37.034,"text":"好委員好車長好先跟您說新年快樂新年快樂但是在新的一年的開始本期非常關心的就是這個在野黨因為擋住了115年的總預算那造成我們115年到現在已經是1月7號今天是來到今年度的第二週了但是我們立法院到現在還沒有審查115年的中央政府總預算"},{"start":37.754,"end":48.653,"text":"我想請教次長就115年的預算還沒有審那教育部我們有多少新興計畫受阻那會造成什麼樣的影響目前有沒有什麼辦法可以彌補或是目前只能停滯"},{"start":49.758,"end":76.044,"text":"譬如像這個大專校院的老舊校舍這部分的整修我們有編那這次這個是新興計畫像污染機產業的教育這個也是新興計畫像這個竹苗地區有一些高中高等學校的這個補助還有這個有一些高中學校建置要設這個污水跟排水系統的設備這就屬於新興的啦那還有一些智慧雨林產業創生人才教育育成的這些計畫有好幾項"},{"start":77.244,"end":91.923,"text":"所以我们其实我们在新的年度我们列了很多的新兴计划但是因为这个预算的关系新兴计划这五项大概就占了31亿就只能先停滞了就没有目前没有办法我大概听一下刚才您的这个回复"},{"start":93.004,"end":110.301,"text":"那像针对学生学习环境的安全的这个影响的这个补助高中学校建制及校舍改善污水排水计划这个部分我看了一下资料它是说会有46校的大专院校及60校的国立高中受到影响喔"},{"start":110.441,"end":133.3,"text":"对这都是学校他迫切需要真的还是要呼吁一下在野党即便说教育部你们的原有的计划是可以动之的但是关于这个新兴计划的部分卡关对学生的这个学习环境学习相关的一些设备充实还是会有一定的影响因为我们像相关的像耐震不足的校舍老座建筑都没有办法进行改善"},{"start":133.72,"end":162.66,"text":"我们现在地震很常发生风灾也都通常蛮严重的对我们的学校的环境这个安全疑虑是很大的那刚才政长你有提到一个新建计划就是配合经济部推动这个无人载具产业发展统筹计划这个部分我知道我们彰化县有受到补助就是补助你们总共有补助了14个校次要采购一些无人机的相关设备这个影响到我们彰化县一些人才培育的这个相关的计划"},{"start":163.18,"end":179.768,"text":"那還有就是除了這些校園的安全之外學習的權益之外我想要請教次長說剛剛講的說這些相關的計畫只能停滯那以後呢以後有什麼相關的經費可以來彌補這些目前停滯的計畫嗎"},{"start":181.533,"end":209.657,"text":"按照法令的限制就是沒有辦法新型計劃就是沒有辦法開始所以這邊其實我還是要提醒呼籲下在野黨就是不要因為這個政治的利益影響到我們孩子受教的權益好 那次長我再請教你之前我們教育部有推動一個有13篇的試讀中國的這個教材這個輔助教材預計在去年9月之後要上路請問有沒有如期上路目前推動情形怎麼樣"},{"start":210.297,"end":235.004,"text":"我们目前是请这个学科的老师来做研习那也来因为那是新编的教材所以我们也是请他们做一些回馈那有一些可以着雨修正的部分我们会着休所以现在是说先请教师来做相关的研习那针对我们相关的内容那学校现场教学现场老师可以提供相关的意见可以来调整"},{"start":235.504,"end":256.678,"text":"其實針對這個試讀中國的教材的推動本席發現我看一下媒體相關報導是有完全不同的狀況那我們中央社算是以真實的民調結果來指出有近六成的民眾是支持開發教材來加強學生的國家認同國際上的新聞我看到香港的新聞它只說台灣各界是有強烈反彈"},{"start":257.378,"end":285.285,"text":"所以這兩篇報導是完全相反的方向市長您認為是什麼原因造成這個完全不同方向的報導我想就像委員提供的資料裡面我們其實是多數的民意機構的調查是認同就是說其實不管是老師或學生他們其實有一個正確的國家認同能夠強化中小學生的一個國家認同所以我們在開發這教材的時候其實也非常小心也透過"},{"start":286.945,"end":304.17,"text":"符合課綱的精神然後請學科中心的老師來討論甚至來收集資料然後能夠做研發然後彼此之間還有一些討論做修正所以是非常嚴謹的我們在有些已經在有的其實已經到學校去做這種"},{"start":304.77,"end":329.51,"text":"一次性的演讲譬如说在周会或者说在一些特殊的场合里面我们也知道其实现在教学的现场也有不同的老师也好家长也好都有不同的政治立场所以我们也很希望它那个教材是一个比较中立性的但到目前为止在试推的结果还没有说因为这样子学生回去跟家长或老师去提出说检举或抗议的所以"},{"start":329.81,"end":347.056,"text":"基本上我們在研發這個補充教材第一個是遵守108課綱的精神第二個我們當然在收集資料上也透過學科中心的教師互相辯證然後很嚴謹地來研發其實以次長您的回答也表示說我們相關的教材也納入了多方的意見來參考而且會來調整"},{"start":349.537,"end":367.038,"text":"那當然面對這個不同的這個方向的這個報導呢可能是中國的任志作戰也可能是香港的媒體根本不了解我們台灣的現況但無如何本席都覺得說這個媒我現在講的說除了這個世獨中國教材其實媒體世獨對我們孩子們也一樣的重要"},{"start":367.418,"end":382.914,"text":"我们需要教育我们的孩子如何辨别假新闻假讯息让我们的孩子有这些相关的媒体试读的素养不会被假的这个媒体内容所蒙蔽所以我这边要请教次长说我们是不是可以严义推动媒体试读教材谢谢"},{"start":383.214,"end":397.6,"text":"其实媒体试读目前在预计课程上其实它也是很重要的素养所以在很多的国高中其实都已经有一些前导学校也都有很好的一个课程设计那甚至我们对我们那个相关的那个"},{"start":398.854,"end":426.728,"text":"终身师也有一些规划所以其实媒体试读这部分在学校里面我们现在是说除了前导学校中心学校以外我们当然是就像委员所讲的非常重要所以我们也希望能够扩大所以会演绎就是相关的这个媒体试读的教材因为其实我们孩子有这样基本的媒体试读的素养的话除了协助孩子们更加清楚的了解我们的国家认同及国际情势各种假信息对 分辨假信息的这个能力我希望说那"},{"start":427.268,"end":452.699,"text":"這個教育部是不是三個月內你有個書面報告給本席辦公室讓我了解說你們大概有沒有回覆好 因為我在前天有一天早上六點多有個家長非常要緊的打電話給我他是兩個學生的阿公一個在念國中一個在念高中他說孩子們回來跟他說老師說那阿公爬來六千塊要導航我說這是什麼答案這是什麼這種作法他說學校老師說的"},{"start":453.579,"end":480.331,"text":"所以我觉得这个非常重要这个不管是对试读中国对媒体的这个相关的试读的这个辨识和能力我觉得是非常重要因为学生如果有这样子错误的讯息进来他无法试读无法辨识的话我觉得对于这个国家的认同造成混淆我觉得这是一个很不好的影响好那现在因为我时间有限我们赶快接下来回到我们偏远地区学校师的这个问题"},{"start":481.551,"end":504.38,"text":"目前我們教育部現有的失陪公費生制度其實應該也可以說是為了保障偏遠或特殊地區學校的學生的授教權益因為我們規定公費生接受偏遠地區學校的聘任實際應該服務6年以上才可以提出接聘到非偏遠地區根據教育部這邊的統計112年的公費生培育人數是350人"},{"start":505.66,"end":511.865,"text":"那根據地方縣市政府統計106年到112年偏遠地區學校公費教師屆滿及未屆滿服務年限調離的有162人平均每年是調離23人等於說每年培育公費生的他是每年培育公費生的6.57%那這邊要探討是說針對公費生的留任屆滿調離或是未屆滿調離的原因我們教育部你們有沒有實際上去了解"},{"start":532.059,"end":548.016,"text":"有没有一个追踪机制来回馈检讨公费生的制度或是我们要厘清真正说偏远地区的教师他教学现场教学环境或是生活上的差异我们才能够随时的来调整他们就是比较适合他们的制度"},{"start":548.476,"end":570.472,"text":"所以的确委员关心的没有错这个资料所显示的也是一个很重要的议题所以我们现在也会设立一个平台来像委员讲的我们来追踪了解增加它的诱因然后诱因不足的部分譬如说在培育的阶段我们其实最近也有一些措施提高公费生的补助如果过去它的门槛就是"},{"start":572.793,"end":589.76,"text":"賠一點錢就離開了那當然就會比較他就很容易就離開尤其最近那個學校大量開缺這個也有一些影響所以我們會來檢討市長其實偏鄉教室常年都有流動率很高的問題那在上一屆會期我們那個教文委員會也開過這個關於偏鄉教育的這個公聽會"},{"start":594.662,"end":623.01,"text":"那很多教師啊協會有反映偏鄉的現場的問題例如說這些教師通常還要身兼行政啊校務啊雜務那麼剛到教育現場就會承擔到這麼高的壓力那同一個學校呢同一個偏鄉學校要6年以上才能夠借聘他校8年以上才有9任獎金他同樣留在偏鄉只要他不是同一個學校他的年資是中斷他是並沒有辦法累計總年資當然反映最多的就是說"},{"start":623.79,"end":645.698,"text":"薪資跟工作的負擔沒有成正比所以說針對這些相關的這些問題我們有沒有一一的去研議面對這些問題我們改善的方案委員所提到的有些個案顯示的一些制度上的一些落差譬如說偏鄉的學校調偏鄉的學校算不算久任這個我們都有開會討論那也都放寬認定"},{"start":647.554,"end":674.263,"text":"我想教師也會覺得就是說現在偏鄉教師的這些相關的措施都著重在留人的這個思維那也表示說我們教育單位就覺得說同一個教師持續的在一個地方任教對孩子的教育相較於教師流動呢同一個教師是比較有注意的那所以這邊也希望說教育部呢你們是不是針對如何穩定師資我們提出相應的這個配套"},{"start":676.223,"end":700.455,"text":"主席已經站起來了我希望說你們對剛才提到這些問題每一個不同的問題我們都需要一一的去了解為什麼有這樣的問題產生我想這幾年來我們開了23次的分區跟全區的一個偏向會也收集了很多意見在立法院我們每一個會期幾乎我們都會排相關的專報所以我們收集到的意見但是收集到的意見我們要有辦法去解決它"},{"start":702.777,"end":714.012,"text":"市長這樣你們請將你們收集到的訊息這些相關的資訊以及教育部所做因應調整的規劃你彙整之後一份報告給我們辦公室可以 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T11:30:55+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T11:40:25+08:00","duration":570,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.257843750000001,"end":7.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.24846875,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.53096875,"end":33.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.10284375,"end":26.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.034093750000004,"end":39.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.15971875,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.80096875,"end":42.657218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.197218750000005,"end":44.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.53034375,"end":55.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.70159375,"end":70.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.58534375,"end":84.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.82784375,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.11471875000001,"end":88.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.72596875,"end":102.15846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.06284375,"end":93.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.15846875000001,"end":102.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.15846875000001,"end":104.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.01471875,"end":111.84471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.08096875000001,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.72284375,"end":138.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.54096875000002,"end":148.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.26096875000002,"end":153.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.61034375,"end":161.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.42346875,"end":166.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.79409375,"end":166.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.56596875000002,"end":172.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.91534375,"end":232.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.34471875000003,"end":247.67159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.04284375,"end":248.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.49409375000002,"end":259.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.02409375,"end":265.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.72784375000003,"end":280.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.38784375,"end":303.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.69659375000003,"end":315.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.37409375000004,"end":321.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.56721875,"end":335.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.37284375,"end":325.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.78159375,"end":327.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.78034375000004,"end":337.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.85159375,"end":349.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.22284375000004,"end":340.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.84971875,"end":352.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.73534375,"end":359.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.05909375000005,"end":361.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.22346875,"end":361.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.50159375000004,"end":370.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.06159375000004,"end":398.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.23784375,"end":377.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.81909375000004,"end":384.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.31471875000005,"end":403.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.79909375000005,"end":427.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.31409375000004,"end":456.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.65159375,"end":460.29659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.84534375000004,"end":459.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.77346875,"end":476.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.59346875000006,"end":482.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.70659375,"end":495.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.41346875000005,"end":495.700343750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次長好我想去年年底的時候教育部公布了教育師待遇的調整和行政減量的一個政策送給教育人員一個很大的鼓舞我還是要給予肯定但是我也想要跟次長再繼續討論有關於特教加級能不能回溯的這件事情我這個之前已經跟次長來討論過但是我想這邊等一下 打不開"},{"start":40.92,"end":69.58,"text":"就是说我们一直到去年我们去年呢其实就已经3到4月的时候就已经宣布要去调上了但是呢我们实际生效的时间是在今年的2月1号那我还是要再跟帮老师们争取啦就是说因为现在我想市长一定也非常清楚嘛我们现场的老师们在处理这些特别是特教生增加的部分其实工作量是增加了非常非常多好"},{"start":69.98,"end":87.843,"text":"那我們是不是可以讓這件事情一樣都是回溯到去年的九月就是一一四年的新學年我知道這個在跟預算是很有關係但是我只是在想說這部分既然其他部分行政家級啊這些東西做得到那是不是特教家級也可以來努力呢"},{"start":88.98,"end":116.17,"text":"这部分因为署这边有跟地方政府去沟通我知道事实上在家籍的角色上面可能也有一些考虑地方政府其实也有看法上有一些出路我们是不是请署长好 简单回应好不好谢谢简单说当时特效家籍我们大概最后阶段其实还有四个县市一直沟通所以他那个争取已经跟这一个情况是不同的性质争取上"},{"start":116.69,"end":138.081,"text":"那这一次这一个在争取上大家是蛮有共识所以整体是愿意来一起来负担那特教家籍在各县市我们也一直往前争取那最后大家有这种共识我们也觉得难能可贵事实上特教老师他在代班时他仍然可以追溯领导师费这点倒是完全是一样的"},{"start":138.681,"end":166.772,"text":"所以它這個植物佳績是另外一個性質不同的佳績我們會努力去讓這個2月1號能夠實踐中間前面也經過了非常多的溝通那因為性質不同它代班仍然有了這件事它不會沒有導視費它也不會沒有植物佳績那這件事是不是容許我們會有持續再跟委員跟縣市再去了解一下好不好好 我還是希望因為剩下四個縣市嘛我們是不是可以還是來持續的努力的來溝通這件事情好不好是可以"},{"start":167.812,"end":188.205,"text":"我一起来那就是那持续如果有相关进度的话也是让我们知道好不好好那再接下来就是回到我们今天的这个偏乡教育那我也是想要来争取我们的教师待遇是不是可以调整呢就是说我们在去年的时候呢其实也有扩大偏乡地区的教师伤害保险的适用对象那还是非常感谢但是说"},{"start":189.285,"end":212.577,"text":"除了这件事情之外,其他都是齐头式的加剂,那我们也都非常清楚的知道,偏乡的教室流动率非常的高,我们从这张图表就可以看到,这是民间团体实现会设,他们做的一个统计,就是如果到职两年内就会流失三分之一,四年内就会流失四成,所以我们是不是也可以来做这个九任奖金的调整呢?"},{"start":212.657,"end":231.896,"text":"因为在106年开始执行到现在已经是十个年头了所以我们十个年头呢我们的奖金其实并没有去因应消费者的物价指数来去做一个相对应的调整当时是说每三年会检讨一次可是已经十年了我们可以简单来看一下"},{"start":233.373,"end":248.447,"text":"我們的民生漲幅1106年到114年已經漲幅有非常大的落差從10%到20%外食費居住費都是以這樣子的一個幅度來去增加的那如果我們說我這邊也簡單的去算了一下我們的"},{"start":249.528,"end":259.178,"text":"排骨便當啦好不好我們的排骨便當從106年到現在當年是90塊就可以買到一個不錯的排骨便當可是現在115年已經漲到了110塊到130塊這個漲幅已經達到了30到40%"},{"start":265.819,"end":279.687,"text":"所以呢等於是說當年他這個現在這個漲幅沒有太大的改變的時候這個很難去對應現在的一個物價水準那同時我們來看一下其他的年金的調整的一個狀態"},{"start":281.428,"end":301.284,"text":"我們也可以看到106年跟現在相比我們的老年基本保障年金 身障年金 月頭保障金額等等的我們其實漲幅都是10%以上所以我也想要請教次長我們有沒有可能像八大津貼一樣都是隨著CPI指數來去做一個調整呢"},{"start":301.604,"end":326.4,"text":"不然会因为通膨都没有任何的感觉谢谢委员的建议据说我们偏向条例其实根据执法定定它其实是有弹性的譬如说我们现在是八年要发放当然也有委员认为说是不是六年就可以发放还有就是说现在八年发放我们从106年的物价指数到现在已经委员讲到至少都应该要提高所以有人说提高奖金"},{"start":326.96,"end":352.088,"text":"我想因為偏鄉條例在這一部分是比較有彈性跟開放的我們是願意來檢討不過這一部分可能也要跟地方政府做一些溝通那我們是不是可以開始來啟動這樣子的溝通呢可以可以嗎我想就是因為因為我們偏鄉條例本來每年都會辦分區會議的這個看有沒有什麼要再精進的要建議的要再修整的那現在委員在教文會裡面提出這樣的意見我們會納入參考"},{"start":352.799,"end":361.689,"text":"好那我希望是说针对这一点我们大概是什么时候可以来追踪相关的进度就是了解一下跟现实谈论的一个状况我们三个月三个月"},{"start":363.527,"end":383.536,"text":"好 因為我想除了薪資上面因為其實剛剛我想市長也都非常了解有些老師真的是很有心那偏鄉的老師除了是孩子的教學上面他其實也是學生很大的一個情感的依賴所以如果我們可以支持這個老師待得更久的話對於家庭 對於孩子來說都是會非常好的幫助"},{"start":384.056,"end":402.946,"text":"可是還有一個部分也要請次長來幫忙就是說他們其實遇到很多的困難因為很多的老師去了偏鄉就像我剛剛講的他處理的問題實在是太多元了不是只有教學上面的問題可是他們常常都是要自己去摸索自己去撐著走那其實在去年的時候呢"},{"start":403.866,"end":426.9,"text":"我們也都已經跟這個我們這個許多的民間團體還有師培大學還有教育部一起來討論一起開了一個偏鄉偏遠地區校園教師入校陪伴的座談然後希望讓老師們不要再單打獨透我們可以有更多的支持所以當時呢我們講的就是官員的可敬性還有媒合機制然後以及"},{"start":429.663,"end":455.911,"text":"被動式或未申請學校的介入機制這一題其實要講就是說有些時候是老師覺得我很需要可是校長覺得我們不需要所以就變成是老師在現場孤立無援那第三個部分的話是不是有一個陪伴的人才庫可以去支持那目前呢就我所知這個人才庫的清單其實都已經提供了那我想要了解這些事情的相關進度因為時間有限是不是可以提供給我一個進度報告好"},{"start":457.301,"end":482.168,"text":"我们今天下班前给委员好就是针对以上这三点提供给我们一个现在的一个进行的一个进度报告让我们可以跟团体一起合作因为我们非常仰赖这些团体那再来还有一件事情就是说教育部有讲行政减量这个对于学校来说真的非常非常重要但是我们的减量偏向学校是否真的有感"},{"start":482.808,"end":494.912,"text":"我想了解教育部有沒有去掌握我們現在盤點的150項的行政業務已經完成了104項的調查到底哪些對於偏鄉小校是有感的呢謝謝維恩我們大概在2月底以前會將我們去年年底宣布的到底在學校實踐上是不是有感真正落實第一個"},{"start":507.836,"end":529.488,"text":"所以二月的時候我們就會統計偏鄉喔不一定進行統計我們怕統計又影響他們又要行政的覆核我們會用我們的方法了解這些項目真的有沒有落實讓老師有感這第一點第二點是在有關項目上例如我舉個例子同樣的內容同樣的人 承辦人我們不要再重複調訓他"},{"start":531.069,"end":550.081,"text":"第二点有一些可以用线上系统的不要总是用纸本报公文像这一些都很明显的我们希望在落实上真的看到小校但是因为这些东西坦白说以我们自己的观点来看的时候对于一般学校可能会是非常有感但是偏乡学校可能还是会有一些更独特的但是人力嘛人力不足他一人兼多职了"},{"start":550.461,"end":570.508,"text":"对对对因为坚持的部分是他们更有感的部分所以我想这个部分我们是不是因为时间到了我们会后我们约个时间来详细的讨论那是不是从这些他们所需要的行政减量来去协助这样他们才会真的有感谢谢好谢谢好谢谢张亚林委员还关心到偏乡的行政减量"}]}},{"id":"166908","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166908","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f15fd7b953e4986745d44f5a94e3adf355aa3b5816bd951ef3696169a3617e29d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:20:48 - 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李昭緯好 謝謝主席我們請彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":11.96,"end":32.664,"text":"主委好主委好美國川普總統他打擊毒品恐怖主義為由逮捕了委內瑞拉總統馬杜洛其實剛剛也有委員提到就是說我們現在有三大受險監控公司在哥倫比亞的曝險總共高達533億包含465億的政府公債還有68億的食原公司債"},{"start":40.606,"end":64.268,"text":"那現在匯率它已經對於個人比亞的主權性平從BB Plus下降到BB然後對於石油公司債的信用平等也下調至BB所以基本上不論是主權或是說屬於石油公司債都是屬於垃圾的債券那請問一下我剛剛看了一下資料"},{"start":65.229,"end":80.473,"text":"這個三大金控公司包含國泰 富邦 中國信託他們分別擁有哥倫比亞政府的公債其中國泰跟中信他們還有擁有石油公司債所以加起來是500"},{"start":84.837,"end":104.047,"text":"530幾億啦那剛剛還有提到說南山人壽還有嘛是不是那還有其他的這一個不管是壽險公司或是這一個金控公司都還有嗎我們剛才也有統計過啦就是我們金融三業裡面銀行業呢跟那個正期保險所有加起來大概1538億這麼多喔"},{"start":107.276,"end":136.656,"text":"就剛才差不多保險業1385億加上銀行業140幾億總共是1538億所以總共是1538億當然也有提到說各種的投資債券屬性不一樣而且這次的情況比如說這次是委內瑞拉哥倫比亞還是一個大家預期中並沒有發生什麼事跟俄羅斯是因為戰爭被國際制裁也很大的不同接下來有可能"},{"start":137.656,"end":151.763,"text":"也有可能是哥倫比亞但我的意思是說啦這些這個受險金控他們去投資這一些我們所認為的這個非民主的國家這個有沒有違反到ESG的原則"},{"start":152.997,"end":172.583,"text":"其實這個部分因為它都根據我們現行的一些的投資規範比如說按照投資等級跟性平還有就是他們的上限比例來去做投資我想所以主委認為說投資這一些所謂的第三星星的非民主的國家然後他們或許他們的這個利率比較高然後收益比較高所以去投資是OK的嗎"},{"start":174.724,"end":201.053,"text":"現行的規定我們這樣我們剛剛委員也有提出假設說整個環境或者我們隨時也都可以來做制度上的檢討就是比如說我覺得要去檢討一下因為你說從之前南非到俄羅斯到現在委內瑞拉可能比較可能是下一個我們不知道是下一個的這種國家是誰但是為什麼我們這些授權公司都寧願去投資這一些第三進行國家不願意來投資台灣的這一個"},{"start":201.873,"end":223.958,"text":"國內的建設你剛才講這個投資它已經是全球佈局所以各位看到金額很大但佔著我們總體資金的比例還是不到百分之一甚至更連百分之對 那個業別連百分之0.1都沒到我是說這個它全球佈局裡面就像說如果它整體來講的話對 全球佈局它的這一個佈局的這個機會也很多那為什麼就是要投資在這些國家裡面"},{"start":224.258,"end":253.373,"text":"就像我們買全球的共榮基金一樣它在各個地方會根據他們自己的投資策略去配置還要符合規定我想我們每個個案都是一個很好的教材我們就才會知道說原來有這個問題因為可能他們當初幾年前購買這時候也沒有這個問題但是後來慢慢金管會議要不要去檢視一下說這些公司他們對於新興市場的分散度"},{"start":255.094,"end":278.01,"text":"其實我們以前大概都有做這個區分不管這個都有只是說每次的狀況就不一樣我剛才講我們的制度是動態的會隨著環境而改變風險是動態的我們當然剛剛也有人提到我們也會回去好好檢視這個部分比如一些投資等級投資比例或是甚至風險係數我們都可以做一個全面式的來檢視我覺得再去做個檢討了好不好"},{"start":279.511,"end":297.88,"text":"然後你們從今年開始對於受險業的匯率會計制度做調整其實去年底有辦了公聽會然後現在就是說對於AC向下的債券投資部位可採攤銷法來做處理我今天有看到一個報導中華信品他們講說這個新制對於受險業來講"},{"start":301.181,"end":325.691,"text":"有機會有挑戰他可以大幅降低避險成本他說每年可省下約900億這個數字主委來講是正確的嗎900億是受選工會預估因為這個東西是會取決於各家公司他們對他資產的一些的認定跟會計準確但是避險成本一定會下降應該是會有預期的下降大概下降你預期大概下降會有多少"},{"start":325.831,"end":355.451,"text":"每家的投資配置不一樣剛才就我們初步他們的預估是說大概是900到1000左右但是剛才那個比如說中華信品講的就是說他用一個很粗略的概念就是說他預期未來會達到一個避險比率他就把你曝險把它減除就會增加這個但其實上假設如果真的很熟悉整個保險業的他所謂的被避險標的屬性的話在財務上面他在所謂的合理的避險比率其實上有一個比較嚴謹的算法不是用這個方式來算的"},{"start":356.872,"end":368.183,"text":"就是主委也同意說避解成本有下降然後在下降這些成本現在怎麼去做處理呢現在的話我們也對外說明就是我們會有一個強化它未來體質因應結構性匯率風險的方案"},{"start":370.965,"end":389.369,"text":"那這部分當然就是我們會我們對外說明就是說我們會每年按照一個方法要求他們擬製的避險節省要提列相關的負債準備或是權益準備用這種方式再積累在資產面上去作為未來因應結構性風險的資用那我是說這些錢"},{"start":393.63,"end":409.999,"text":"避險成本下降的這些錢可以要求他們回來台灣再做投資嗎這個就等於是限制資產的止波這是另外一回事那我們講說強化資本跟資產止波是兩回事當然我們要求就是我們未來會要求保險業去扭轉他的"},{"start":411.699,"end":427.949,"text":"這個資產負債不匹配的狀況這自然就會產生剛才委員提到這個效果因為我們今天的題目就是在於說你看壽險業有這麼多的資金那都在這個海外嘛剛才也提到說總施展是37兆其中有22兆是在海外投資對"},{"start":429.53,"end":458.33,"text":"我看了一下这个央行的统计我们在去年的5月这个受险的海外的资产跌到20.46但是从5月之后不断的攀升奇怪了那为什么一直对海外投资会一直增加到了11月来到21.92兆快突破22兆了我们不是一直希望说我们这些受险公司本来在海外投资希望他们能够回到台湾"},{"start":460.45,"end":478.797,"text":"這對台灣的這個投資沒有增加對海外投資反而增加了沒有 它資產是這樣就是你可以看得到其實像保險業最大的收益除了它過去的已經收到的保費它每年都會收到續期的保費不是 我的意思是說就是我們對於受險業要求他們回來台灣的投資的績效不明顯"},{"start":480.038,"end":494.879,"text":"當然我們剛才已經講過很多就是我們政策都非常明確大家政策很明確那為什麼回來的不多是台灣沒有什麼好投資的嗎這個我覺得是其中的一個關鍵就是說買方這邊的障礙應該是台灣沒有什麼好投資的是誰的問題"},{"start":495.72,"end":514.919,"text":"沒有 我想是我們整個整個比如說我們的案源 公件這個除了剛剛講投資公件是一個案源以外比如包括像很多保險在國內自己尋找他自己國內的投資標的因為我們除了投公件以外我們要投資把那個投資標的那是我們的公件的目的還不夠多標的物還不夠多因為"},{"start":515.439,"end":543.431,"text":"其實我們過去來看或是說能夠投資的這個比例還不夠多還是誘因不夠多因為總是這兩年來受險業他們就是不回來他寧願去投資這個海外這些垃圾債券他是個比較利益的概念假設我今天來講我錢進來馬上就有成本我成本之後還等到一個但是我們作為主管機關我們當然希望說他是回來台灣投資所以我們要給他這一個比較誘因上面認為說回來台灣投資對他們是有利的"},{"start":543.931,"end":573.062,"text":"應該是這樣做的大家都積極在做這部分我想我們也不斷的去跟保險業講說你的風險在於你資產負債不匹配所以我剛才也跟委員報告過就是我們也看到其實我們的保險業的那個國外投資特別受險業國外投資的比率現在已經跌破六成了就是比前一年少了2點多%我想這是好現象我想這部分代表說我們但是海外投資的比例還是持續增加"},{"start":573.822,"end":588.812,"text":"沒有下降沒有 他在海外像比如說他們的投資是固定收益配置他現在去出售的話基本上他有他一定的期間跟他比如說他當時投資的目的好 沒關係這個最後一點時間我問一下這交所林董事長"},{"start":589.733,"end":609.891,"text":"因為這個也有看到這一個新聞就是說你有所謂的這一個價值提升計畫那其實你也看到了就是說其實現在台灣的股市在漲大部分是台積電的貢獻所以我說它是一個人的武林就是它一個人去年大盤漲了大概快六千點它大概就占了一半以上"},{"start":610.912,"end":623.785,"text":"那你這個所謂的價值提升計畫是說除了高科技AI產業之外你要對哪一些產業你認為說它本來有這個價值但是我們在市場上沒有彰顯出來這個價值那你要用什麼方法去彰顯它的價值出來"},{"start":625.852,"end":653.424,"text":"這個部分來講的話我們是希望我們的這些上市公司能夠自願的那營造就是說讓這些他們著重在中長期的這些計畫能夠讓投資人包括投資機構都能夠看得見甚至於被投資我想這個是跟對 到底是就是非AI高科技的產業對 包括AI也都全部就是全部的上市公司都適用的"},{"start":653.604,"end":670.29,"text":"那AI現在已經發展得很好啦他們當然當然 這個就是一種選擇但是我們最重要的是創造這個氛圍讓大家針對於中長期的這些營運計畫能夠讓投資者去購買那你總是也有標的物嘛也不可能沒有標的物啊基本上來講的話我們還是"},{"start":674.555,"end":693.245,"text":"比如說它是傳產那還是受關稅影響的那還是說什麼樣的基本上來講我們不會有特定的標的物我們是鼓勵一個混為就是說我們的全體的上市公司在這個資本市場平台裡面能夠讓他們有一些對於中長期的一些計畫然後這些計畫能夠對它的價值能夠提升"},{"start":698.291,"end":703.056,"text":"那這些投資者也因為了解這些計畫以後包括投資機構跟投資者能夠參與他們的一些投資的企圖那你要用什麼方式來讓他凸顯出來你是用ETF還是用什麼樣的方式我們基本上來講的話就是我們會有一個專區會拿他公告然後我們也會安排更多的活動"},{"start":721.494,"end":743.548,"text":"去让一些投资机构能够去了解这些他们的未来的一些所以就是去推销这一些对对对推销这一些具有市场价值但是没有被发现的对而且是自发性的这个是报名牌吗没有没有这自发性的这个基本上来讲的话就是自发性的对于产数"},{"start":744.728,"end":765.457,"text":"我們的公司的經營我們加強的是上市公司跟投資者的溝通我想這是很重要的那這個計畫大概哪時候會提出來基本上來講我們在去年就已經開始進行了我們現在也大概有400多家在已經有提出來但是我們現在這是1.0我們現在已經在著重在2.0那2.0的部分來講的話我們事實上也拜訪了很多外資機構跟投資機構他們對於上市公司的"},{"start":774.06,"end":792.345,"text":"希望看到的這些計畫的 criteria一些我們會提供一些範例給這些公司讓他們能夠更能夠對準這些投資機構他們希望看到這些公司怎麼去present他自己我想這個是類似IR的一種溝通然後來提升"},{"start":795.663,"end":801.746,"text":"你意思是說我們有一個專區會凸顯出來說這些是這個價值沒有被看見的股票嗎是這樣子嗎事實上是所以這個專區哪時候會出來"},{"start":807.063,"end":823.155,"text":"基本上我們現在已經有了我們現在是2.0就內容的部分我們還會再去鼓勵更多的上市公司能夠在針對內容的部分更合乎這些國際型那你這樣看起來1.0已經實施了是不是對 我們是1.0實施了那看起來效果不是很出現跟委員報告因為我們都還是集中在高科技沒有 跟委員報告這個是一個長期文化的塑造"},{"start":832.661,"end":855.215,"text":"像日本的它的價值金它也推了三四年我覺得這個部分來講我覺得是一個革新的一個制度上的一個革新我是希望說就是說我們產業的發展要均衡因為現在有點像是都是往高科技那邊去發展那其實我們都很多純能產業是受到很大的影響好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝 請回"}]}},{"id":"166907","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166907","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f743b614e12992bec91c86f75780029905aa3b5816bd951ef1cf611dc18aaa0c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:24:36 - 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一隻機能賣我們50個代表我們買了12架那我要講的就是說我們希望我們的飛行員都能開新的飛機 好的飛機而不是用F-16AB那種舊飛機然後upgrade mid-life upgrade"},{"start":252.607,"end":273.436,"text":"玩玩的也很久以前了他的肌身跟毛皮都沒有換所以我們同歸好意上同歸意上我們是要希望美國把我們高興的給我們用心的回去這樣對不對不然我講的是題外話啦但是我是希望大家都把機器快點找到雖然是很"},{"start":274.946,"end":295.771,"text":"很危急喔好那今天你的組織變革這個組織要增加大家問很多了我就問兩件第一個就是你的國家科技中心另外一個是國家中醫研究院那我請問你喔這個科技研究評估中心那是要幹什麼"},{"start":298.895,"end":326.569,"text":"跟委員說明 現在健保要給付因為越來越多這種高貴的藥新藥發展的越來越快但是價格都不便宜但是資源有限所以現在要納入健保之前都按照我們健保法42條的規定會進行醫療科技評估來評估它的這個成本效益的問題財務的影響還有它可能產生的效益跟社會"},{"start":327.529,"end":349.322,"text":"社會經濟的關聯性等等所以這個是醫療科技評估我們現在都是委託一個財團法人在做我們希望未來這個量越來越大專業的人才的需求也越來越多所以把它成立成一個行政法人來協助做健保給付的時候的前端的這個評估"},{"start":351.121,"end":366.919,"text":"所以主要是要核心藥 核癌藥那原來那個藥品查驗基金會藥品查驗登記中心他是負責藥品取證你要上市之前的許可前端的作業"},{"start":367.6,"end":389.65,"text":"所以兩個不疊床才有不 現在是要把它分開讓它兩邊分開不要合成所以新的藥的引進跟新藥的查核會速度會加快對然後要得到預期的效果你不要越拖越久越拖越久是因為沒錢所以才一直拖"},{"start":390.52,"end":408.242,"text":"我們現在有的需求如果符合我們的unmade medical need就是醫療上有缺口的藥我們現在新藥有平行審查一方面在送查驗登記取證的過程就可以來跟健保申請納入給付這樣就縮短了"},{"start":409.403,"end":425.954,"text":"所以不管是要健保要給予的或者是要智慧的這要這個中心都要先做就對了那健保現在戶北企業也要在這個中心來審是不是"},{"start":426.676,"end":443.697,"text":"他是做這個要不要納入健保幾戶建議的審查啦要不要納入健保的總額還有癌症新藥基金來支持好 遺棄呢 遺棄沒有啦"},{"start":446.727,"end":458.234,"text":"新藥 新科技 新儀器 新的耗材新的 我們現在有一些是智慧衣材有AI功能的那些那也是新的東西 那也要評估因為有人在施語說你這個你這個疊床架 你這個"},{"start":465.177,"end":482.47,"text":"是在安置你的閒置人力 雇佣沒有吧 沒有這個事情沒有 這是要讓他要羅織更多的專業人才那不是一般的公務員能做的這些要專業的人力的培育那第二個國家中醫研究院這個他又要做什麼"},{"start":483.554,"end":499.277,"text":"現在我們有一個是國家中醫藥研究所專門在做研究提供一些檢驗方法或者是新藥的研發但是因為受限於公務機關的用人"},{"start":500.078,"end":521.785,"text":"這很多也是委員會最清楚 很多人才不是用公務系統的禁用所以讓他成為一個國家中醫研究所 讓他的人才的羅織可以更廣 有彈性同時讓他去發展從臨床前的研究到臨床的研究"},{"start":522.325,"end":540.387,"text":"所以这些研究的科技人才不是用公务人员的资格来聘用所以也不受公务人员的管制所以用人科研活泼他的待遇科研很高那这样会不会打击公务人员的士气"},{"start":541.657,"end":561.092,"text":"他的取材來源不一樣啊比如說有些他是需要博士後研究的人他是要有中醫的背景那個要跟產業競爭啊要跟外面的用人要去競爭啊所以他的薪資需要比較彈性不是跟一般的公務員的那個薪給制度相同所以這個是我比較擔心的"},{"start":562.213,"end":585.383,"text":"就是說看起來很好 但是下去 碰下去 弄下去會不會讓公務員產生不平衡這個是你要注意的地方 要小心的地方做的事情不一樣 做的事情不一樣因為研發出來會繼轉 然後會變成產業化所以它那個對整個台灣的中醫藥的發展會很有貢獻"},{"start":587.056,"end":603.601,"text":"我看這個世界十大藥廠他們的研發啦一百個研發能夠成功差不多十件然後能夠上市差不多兩件所以研發會成功不成功那是未定之數啦你如果說是要做原始的研發其實是要做的"},{"start":609.002,"end":614.188,"text":"那是不一樣的我們會給你支持啦但是你這個後面衍生出來的問題你要小心啦好 我們會這個都要兼顧啦都會兼顧好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166906","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166906","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fba34c2d6bf60d44801bb1e1b9e929a615aa3b5816bd951ef56c01e1ed2fe403d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:24:19 - 11:30:50","影片長度":"00:06:31","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T11:24:19+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T11:30:50+08:00","duration":391,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":4.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.35471875,"end":7.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.41784375,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.164093750000003,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.535343750000003,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.712218750000002,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.52159375,"end":22.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.62659375,"end":80.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.14409375,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.40346875,"end":73.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.58909375,"end":73.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.60596875,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.69034375000001,"end":73.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.80846875,"end":73.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.31784375000001,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.49471875,"end":83.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.52846875,"end":84.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.71409375,"end":83.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.04721875,"end":87.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.51096875,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.96471875,"end":206.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.15034375000002,"end":210.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.13721875000002,"end":216.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.94659375,"end":255.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.82221875000002,"end":280.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.99971875,"end":289.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.89284375,"end":291.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.78721875,"end":297.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.07346875,"end":295.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.11534375,"end":298.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.72284375000004,"end":306.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.48096875000005,"end":307.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.13471875000005,"end":311.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.83471875000004,"end":310.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.00346875,"end":317.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.14659375,"end":315.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.03221875,"end":320.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.12471875,"end":323.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.73596875000004,"end":322.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.22096875,"end":339.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.55409375,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.97596875,"end":325.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.16784375000003,"end":379.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.71409375,"end":354.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.48846875000004,"end":366.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.50909375000003,"end":369.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.59659375,"end":376.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.48221875,"end":381.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.03471875,"end":385.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.67534375,"end":386.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.72159375,"end":388.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.83096875,"end":390.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.94034375,"end":391.96971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.249,"end":3.655,"text":"再請陳培宇委員質詢時間4分鐘好 謝謝主席有請張廖萬堅市長 謝謝有請市長"},{"start":15.021,"end":31.944,"text":"總預算的基本之道還是要在程序委員會可以過啦這比較重要啦好所以次長剛講得很好關鍵還是總預算好 次長我想跟你分享幾個我們辦公室雖然現在我不再叫我們委員會但是關於偏鄉老師的事情我們還是做了非常多政策跟討論的推進喔"},{"start":32.584,"end":56.793,"text":"第一个在去年年底我们办公室邀请了部长还有国教署相关同仁还有师医师然后到TFT跟KISS去做交流主要就是谈论我们如何留任偏乡老师或者是偏乡老师的养成他们已经在就业当中的养成他们如何去取得相关的证件我们非常开心听到部长在听到相关的报告之后就是所谓进任式的失陪养成"},{"start":57.293,"end":80.72,"text":"部长当场就说他在担任部长以来他一直相信这是一个可能的办法那他也已经责成私一私不知道这个部分可不可以请教育部再公开表态我们如何协助偏乡的老师有一个新的开创失陪的方法因为部长之前在一个会议中也说希望所有台湾的失智培育机构可以开创一个多元的对于失智培育的想象"},{"start":81.485,"end":103.828,"text":"是的 我想我请那个市长来做进一步的说明好 没问题 谢谢好 谢谢委员的关心那在我们跟适配大学还有TFT等长期关注偏乡的这个机构的合作那过去有这样的机制那我们未来呢也会再强化这个部分那例如说这个国北交大还有我们TFT如何把像国外这种"},{"start":104.309,"end":127.462,"text":"Relay它有这种在地coach的精神让他们在实作的机制当中在失陪的过程里就能够把集战力还有对于偏乡的关注以及支持偏乡老师留任的这个支持度我们会积极的来主责让我们三方的合作能够有更多的模组到不同的失陪大学去"},{"start":128.022,"end":148.133,"text":"太好了 但至少從北教大那邊他們已經有跟你們施伊斯提出計劃申請也拜託你們多加幫忙因為確實有很多偏鄉老師他們希望持續留在偏鄉同時取得相關的證照讓大家相信他們不是只有熱情不是只有愛心他們還伴同的專業施培的部分就先到這邊施伊斯市長請回 市長請留步"},{"start":150.174,"end":176.596,"text":"我继续讨论关于偏乡老师久任奖金的事情我之前在教文的时候质询过非常多次第一次是针对所谓的学校不开缺或者是因为其他的原因这一位偏乡的老师他没有办法继续留在原校服务的这种代理老师可不可以采记这是第一个第二个是全面采用全年聘期以前的代理教师年资可不可以采任这是第二个"},{"start":177.316,"end":206.471,"text":"第三個問題我問的是針對其他無法在原校留任的老師或者是跨縣市的年資可被採集的問題在兩次質詢之後呢我要再次謝謝教育部跟國教署相關的問題大部分都得到解答但是我要再次確認第一個事情去年教育部跟國教署有發函給各個縣市請他們調查符合請領偏鄉9任教師資格的人數我想確定一下去年調查的這一批人他們的9任獎金發放了沒"},{"start":208.606,"end":226.414,"text":"來署長獎金發了嗎9任獎金去年調查以來是6500人花了5億多都已經發了各縣市都發了好太好了謝謝那下一個呢相關獎金的作業如果如同剛剛署長說都已經發了可是我們看你們不是只有發錢你們還做相關法規範的盤點第一個"},{"start":228.275,"end":255.131,"text":"你们在去年3月提出一个偏远地区学校校长教师9任奖金的相关疑问问答集然后在8月提出了修订可是我还是在修订里面看到一个很大的bug想要跟两位讨论一下第一个关于第17个Q&A的问题关键是这样的代理老师他甄选没有考上原来的学校可是他却考上不同县市的偏乡学校"},{"start":255.931,"end":280.698,"text":"也就是說他本人繼續留在偏鄉學校服務可是卻不得勤領9任獎金這件事情我認為在現在各地有師資荒代理教師荒的這個情況之下有沒有機會我們放寬認定只要他繼續留在偏鄉的學校他必須要被你們認定成是持續可以累積這個年資這個部分"},{"start":281.398,"end":307.52,"text":"其实委员讲的很有就是说这种个案其实很有道理其实我们会跟地方商量原来的规定当然是要在原校六年对 我知道原校是这样那现在是说学校没有开学他没有考上没有继续在那边留任可是他留任的学校也是偏乡对 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T11:09:31+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T11:24:13+08:00","duration":882,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.805968750000002,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.113468750000003,"end":13.480343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.231593750000002,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.24846875,"end":12.872843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.872843750000001,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.598468750000002,"end":13.767218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.218468750000003,"end":15.809093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.56846875,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.00284375,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.64409375,"end":63.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.59471875,"end":86.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.75159375000001,"end":87.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.52784375,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.67471875000001,"end":92.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.10909375,"end":96.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.70784375000001,"end":118.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.17159375,"end":99.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.40346875,"end":100.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.76159375,"end":103.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.29721875000001,"end":106.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.20409375000001,"end":107.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.13471875,"end":124.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.84284375000001,"end":143.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.35721875,"end":126.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.47784375,"end":137.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.51909375,"end":149.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.10471875000002,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.28596875000002,"end":156.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.57659375,"end":154.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.91784375,"end":158.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.89221875,"end":160.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.41096875000002,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.40659375,"end":161.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.67221875,"end":169.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.11846875,"end":176.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.50971875000002,"end":181.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.58909375000002,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.29346875000002,"end":186.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.44909375,"end":196.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.02159375000002,"end":198.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.26596875,"end":197.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.48096875000002,"end":234.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.75409375,"end":206.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.76221875000002,"end":235.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.07409375,"end":238.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.45784375000002,"end":245.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.47471875000002,"end":238.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.50846875000002,"end":238.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.98409375000003,"end":246.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.81096875000003,"end":267.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.90034375,"end":271.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.49909375000004,"end":276.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.88221875,"end":283.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.46846875,"end":278.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.13034375,"end":282.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.97409375,"end":283.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.80096875000004,"end":286.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.14659375,"end":286.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.41659375,"end":294.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谢谢赵伟 我们有请次长我看署长一起好了吧署长万元你好"},{"start":18.049,"end":44.26,"text":"好 次长好 署长好首先先肯定这个教育部在去年12月31号终于宣布了高中以下的学校导师费3000块调到4000块终点费也全面的调增20%以及第三项的教师行政工作奖金也分三级最高每个月加发2000还追溯我想这是值得肯定的"},{"start":44.96,"end":62.72,"text":"那但是呢提高了這個導師費跟這個兼任的這個教室的這個終點費事實上啊其實老師們最期待的我想次長說得很清楚就是希望新資審議法制化我們希望把它法制化因為我們去看嘛其實"},{"start":64.662,"end":86.117,"text":"教育部不知道有没有去了解次长就是说今年为什么行政院还没有把军工教育人员的待遇调整这个条例送到立法院去因为我觉得法治化这件事情是相当的重要而不是今天你们认为想调就调然后你们觉得不该调就不该调是随着心情还是随着当时的感觉那我觉得法治化以后其实对大家都好能不能说明一下"},{"start":88.151,"end":99.295,"text":"這份人事單位我想委員的想法我認同當然在這個沒有制度化之前其實從100年到現在其實你說也有調100年、107年、111、113、114年也分別調了3%、3%、4%、4%、3%大概17%"},{"start":107.717,"end":123.355,"text":"那包括這一次其實剛才有委員提議嘛譬如說導師費的調整啦終點費的調整啦這個部分是不是也應該有一個調整機制啦那在部內可以研究研議的範圍內我們會來朝這方面來努力"},{"start":124.556,"end":143.261,"text":"其实正如您刚刚所说的就是说什么哪一年有调哪一年没调其实你背的还蛮清楚的那什么时候调了一个3%什么时候调了4%我觉得没有一个规则我觉得把它法制化下来其实对大家是最有保障的所以我想我们有没有倾向要尽速地把这个薪资审议法制化我们把它落实下来"},{"start":143.841,"end":156.296,"text":"對 因為這個涉及到其他部會包括人事總署啦或者是行政院這邊的公教方面那你有提出來過嗎教育部我們這邊當然也會反映提出來過嗎委員有反映的話立法院有決議我們都會反映"},{"start":157.057,"end":175.96,"text":"所以你有提出来过吗教育部我的部分没有不是你个人啦你今天来是代表教育部嘛教育部有没有提出来过部的部分当然希望朝这方面走但是这个牵涉到的就是一个恐怖会那我希望啦当然牵涉到很多的这个部会但是我希望教育部能够向行政院去了解并且把它提出来好不好"},{"start":176.687,"end":198.327,"text":"我只是提說雖然沒有建立這個制度性但是這幾年的調心其實已經適度調心我跟你講調心是應該做的但是不是隨著你想調就調我覺得新之法之化這件事情還是要做所以我希望教育部如果有為我們這些老師著想我們還是盡速把它提出來好不好我們會持續來收集各界的意見好不好包括委員的意見好"},{"start":199.148,"end":225.935,"text":"另外这一次的调整我们并没有纳入教保员的教保费没有错对不对我想署长在这边其实署长您之前是不是有跟全国幼教产业工会也在私下开过很多次会关心过他们很多次也聊过是希望我们在导师费其实还没有调整之前其实署长您就有跟他们承诺说我们要把教保员的教保费调成跟我们的导师费是一致的对不对"},{"start":226.815,"end":234.326,"text":"那這一次你看你之前有承諾過人家其實拜託不要干擾好不好後面這是哪一位啊"},{"start":237.228,"end":261.412,"text":"学前卒的刚好是对我们不要干扰好不好如果我们本席没有请你的话请不要干扰好不好因为你们的署长其实很厉害不需要你跟他打小报告好那您之前就已经有去承诺他们说我们要把教保员的这个教保费提高跟导师费一样他们满心期待但这一次呢我们去调这个导师费的时候你却没有把我们的教保员的教保费啊"},{"start":261.832,"end":267.423,"text":"那按照你的承诺去把它调高那我想请教一下先问一下署长好了为什么"},{"start":268.936,"end":297.575,"text":"各位報告 據教師資格的教育夥伴是都一樣教保員的部分會調這個我們已經跟理事長也有說明過現在在修要點也會追溯這個他能完全都掌握什麼時候呢在一月份我們會把要點修完謝謝一月份會把要點修完怎麼調就是剛剛講的調一千就增加一千據教師資格的老師者那就跟老師一樣教保員的部分調一千"},{"start":298.135,"end":315.673,"text":"教保员的部分调一天一千但是因为你之前有承诺过他们说要比照导师费嘛对不对所以他们期待的是比照导师费当然过去我们就是说导师费是三千的时候我们就是三千但现在因为导师费调成四千了我们有没有空间一样我们来调成四千"},{"start":316.594,"end":333.898,"text":"刚委员报告的是据教师身份那个因为是起医然后就叫教师那至于教保员他有原来的那个教保的服务费用那那个费用我们要如何去看待他可能还是有一个基准那那个基准之下至少调一千我们就加一千"},{"start":334.338,"end":362.92,"text":"好那很好所以一月份的时候我们会把教保员的教保费用再调高一千块然后给你追溯对吗对好我们一定要把它落实另外我们看到国教署也把教师行政工作奖金分成了三级那第一级第二级都是五十班以上但是校长每月加发两千行政职人员每月加发一千五那未达五十班的校长跟行政职的人员加发一千我想第一个请教一下彭署长好了好"},{"start":363.36,"end":382.526,"text":"就是为什么我们要用50班作为界定的标准第一个现行就有用70班70班按照当时民国80年代的比例回推回来是现在的大概50班左右这第一点所以50班这个律定到目前为止怕还是有一漏所以我们相对小"},{"start":383.286,"end":408.084,"text":"相对小的县市它里头如果没有苏党我了解你意思就是说是过去的法令对不对但是我觉得你这样子调其实不符合我们现在教育的现状因为我们去看苏党我们过去这个年代定的那个法令当然我们要一直不断去做调整那我是不知道你怎么换算的你的换算公司我没办法理解但是我们如果按照现在的这个学校卫生法我们来看"},{"start":408.744,"end":431.482,"text":"校户跟营养师我们是以40班为基准那我们的40班怎么定的不是我们不爱挤哪个数字是哪个数字而是我们去看说这个校户他可能就是最佳的一个工作量或者是他这个最大的一个工作承受压力跟这个营养师我们都是40班为一个单位那如果我们是以40班为一个单位那为什么我们在行政工作奖金是要用50班呢"},{"start":432.463,"end":443.109,"text":"所以這一點我希望啦 我們能夠修得更好一點我們就比照學校衛生法至少還有一個相關的法的一個規範就是40班 希望這一點能不能去研議一下"},{"start":444.653,"end":461.863,"text":"我們會來研議好那再來我再請教一下我們一樣50班以上的學校但是校長跟行政職人員的獎金卻是不一樣的一個是2000一個是1500可是那奇怪了那未達50班以上校長跟行政職人員又都是一樣加發1000這又是個什麼標準"},{"start":465.435,"end":488.77,"text":"當時是其實就有考慮啦就是說我們都知道現場有所謂的行政大逃亡就我們擔心說導師會調高之後那個行政家庭不是我了解啊我現在的問題不是這個啊不要讓他差距擴大不是嘛我現在意思是說不要讓他差距擴大那你看看喔你把50班以上校長跟行政職人員他是有不一樣對不對有差500塊那為什麼50班以上校長跟行政職人員就一樣咧你這種標準很奇怪啊為什麼呢"},{"start":492.12,"end":516.079,"text":"現在五十班以上的校長兩千五十班以上的行政人員一千五五十班以下的校長行政人員一千那這些考慮那個署長你這樣子答覆是浪費我的時間啊你真的在浪費我的時間我就在問你嘛為什麼五十班以上你有差距五十班以下那校長跟行政人員就都一樣呢因為剛剛委員講的有一些那個觀念上齁我把委員再確認一下我想這個題目很小"},{"start":516.639,"end":536.216,"text":"但是我觉得这是一种对行政职人员的尊重我是希望是不是我们50班以上的行政职人员你回去研议一下虽然是区区的500块但是这是一个相对的尊重能够跟50班以上的学校一样校长跟行政职人员我们都可以一样是2000 50班以上我们也朝这个方向去研议一个礼拜内给我一个答复好不好"},{"start":540.276,"end":560.234,"text":"接下来呢我想一样再请教就是校事会议那个次长我好像有看到您在媒体上说我们这个校事会议其实之前就说要提出修正了说去年底看起来是跳票一次那这个跳票其实让我们基层的教师心惶惶大家都在关注这件事那现在您又公开说1月12这个会不会再跳票"},{"start":561.014,"end":585.604,"text":"就下禮拜一 這幾天而已不會跳票絕對不會跳票嘛 是不是那我想我是不知道你出來的內容會是讓大家很開心還是會讓大家再一次失望那我只是要提醒您對於教師團體所提出來的就是說是不是我們在相關這個爛訴如果其實不成立的時候關於我們的補償機制你有沒有放在裡面我們也在研擬那個配套中"},{"start":586.064,"end":602.431,"text":"所以禮拜一我們提出來的校士會的相關這個修正也會有關於這個爛素的相關補償機制在裡面嗎那個部分那個部分還在那個部分就是條文有公布啦但那部分我們在還在研議中啦我希望喔還有幾天的時間啦"},{"start":603.491,"end":628.587,"text":"這個部分非常的重要部長非常在乎這個非常在乎所以既然非常在乎跳票過一次這一次我們希望一起把它納入那我希望次長回去能夠再講一下好那最後一個部分再跟昭偉幾分鐘的時間就好我們特教法修正以後我們增加了專職鑑定的評估人員那由國教組去補助各縣市增至專職鑑定評估人員的援額但是為什麼到現在修法一年過後"},{"start":629.247,"end":657.06,"text":"全台仍然有10個縣市沒有依照補助援額來增加這個足額的人力甚至於還有九成的這個受教的這個特教老師反映他沒有感覺到平健工作因此來降低了壓力這什麼原因那而且我們看一下這個資料全國一共核定了100個名額地方政府佔了92個但是呢整個全部只有聘了57個還有35個沒有聘足那次長你有沒有去了解為什麼還有這麼多的縣市沒有辦法足額禁用"},{"start":657.6,"end":667.254,"text":"我們也在跟地方協助就是可能在那個他們在聘任上可能有遇到一些困難什麼樣的困難謝謝 請署長回答好不好 來"},{"start":669.875,"end":687.978,"text":"第一点他有离职的现象第二点在聘任上可能在设计上就是整个时间还有他工作负担要搭配在一起这一点上我们逐渐是在做检讨那希望钱给他们能够善用出来刚才委员所问的很专业是不是容我们也有给报告完成的报告"},{"start":688.058,"end":709.139,"text":"署长我想再提供一个给你做一个参考因为其实很多人在讲说因为特教老师有特教家级但是专职的鉴定人员是没有的那在工作量其实可能是差不多的情况之下他当然会优先选择担任特教老师所以在这个部分我想你应该回去针对问题来研究是不是让专职的鉴定评估人员也可以有特教家级这样会比较好一点"},{"start":709.739,"end":739.219,"text":"那因为你看我再提供一个数字给你我们目前有四成的特教老师他知道现时可以设置专职的这个评鉴人员但这其中只有一成的这个人有申请过专职的这个鉴评的一个支援这代表还有大部分的这个特教老师依然处于这个蜡烛两头烧的一个状况所以这个问题我希望能够一并做一个改善那这些问题刚才上述的问题一个礼拜内给我好不好最后一分钟那个次长"},{"start":741.12,"end":766.742,"text":"我們按照預算法第54條第一項第二款第一目規定請注意聽一下新興資本支出期新增計劃在本年度預算完成審議程序後時的動之但依照88條規定辦理或經立法院統一者不在此限這個白話文我翻譯給你聽一下也就是說預算如果沒有辦法如期審查完政府相關新興資本支出及"},{"start":767.222,"end":781.341,"text":"新增計畫提出來以後經過立法院同意就能夠先之用您了解這個部分嗎這部分你了解嗎我剛剛所念有沒有錯誤這個部分就依照規定依照規定嘛我剛剛所念的部分就你了解有沒有錯誤"},{"start":783.459,"end":811.807,"text":"条文是这么写的条文就是这样嘛那你今天怎么可以回答说你有五项的新兴计划现在没有办法处理那我跟你讲我们立法院一定非常支持教育上面所有的新兴预算你把它提出来啊好不好如果你今天所答询我们这些委员说我们目前有五项新兴计划也很急着在教育现场来执行你尽管按照程序我相信你也很了解把它提出来提出来以后我想立法院不管朝野我们一定都会支持这你做得到吗"},{"start":814.918,"end":839.497,"text":"次长请你回答我想只要是法令上程序上可以争取的我们想不分党派我们会去争取当然嘛那所以刚才我有跟你提了嘛所以这个法令没有错嘛那如果没有错你现在五项新兴计划你就不用再去想什么财务法的问题预算审查的问题那你就把它提出来啊你出来以后我相信蓝白绿全部都会支持那你愿不愿意把你今天所说的那五项新兴计划把它提出来"},{"start":839.657,"end":859.555,"text":"因为88条的规定是指这个总预算还是它好像指基金市长我想你应该要去把它了解如果有这样的办法你却不提出来在那边挨我觉得这样是不对的好不好我们全部支持你的新兴计划有急迫性的赶快把它提出来我们不分朝野我们全部予以支持可以吗"},{"start":859.875,"end":882.089,"text":"我想歸根還是趕快審總預算會比較好趕快審預算當然要審所以我們也要依法來編列預算所以我今天只講教育的預算我們全力支持你的新興計劃你要趕快把它提出來如果你不把它提出來那我們暫時也沒有辦法去協助你 是不是 好不好麻煩你依法來做事 謝謝好 謝謝望梅林委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"166896","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166896","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468ffb78180887cad4ae91c86f75780029905aa3b5816bd951ef86e46e02d761d5dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"11:00:19 - 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主席我們請 石部長石部長請孫委員好部長早我想我們今天委員會所安排大概有六個法案這六個法案大概都是主要就是因為我們有關衛福部的組織架構的調整所以有這六個法案我看這六個法案裡面我們衛福部的組織架構調整大概是新設兩個"},{"start":42.385,"end":67.911,"text":"這個三級機關就是兒少級家庭支持署跟這個長照級社會發展署這兩個三級機關那另外這個新設一個行政法人就是國家醫療科技評估中心這個新設的行政法人另外是國家中醫研究院的一個改制大概就是比較大的重點大概是這個其他更名跟這個法治處這個比較問題比較小"},{"start":70.611,"end":74.513,"text":"有關兒少及家庭支持署還有長照跟社會發展署這兩個新設機構都是賴總統在選舉的時候所提出的政見"},{"start":87.857,"end":111.325,"text":"現在在希望說能夠透過這次的修法能夠落實這樣子的想法那這部分我們一定是全力支持的那至於這兩個一個改制的一個新設的這兩個這兩個行政法人這部分我大概今天有一些中間有一些細節我想就跟署長這邊來了解一下首先是有關這個國家醫療科技評估中心這個新設單位"},{"start":115.068,"end":127.207,"text":"這個大概就是依照全民健保法第42條的第一項跟第二項有關這些相關的評估我們都設置國家醫療科技評估中心來加以規範"},{"start":129.67,"end":149.287,"text":"所以我也參考其實這個東西我也參考其他世界各國因為現在我們的限制現在這個是在國家醫療科技評估中心現在目前是一個附屬的單位是一個附屬的單位專案辦公室對 它只是一個辦公室"},{"start":149.727,"end":169.544,"text":"那我看這全世界對照全世界基本上不管英國 加拿大 韓國 德國 法國 日本這些都是一些獨立的機構或是一些專責機構只是我們現在還是一個副主單位所以我想這樣子的改制 最主要是希望能夠提高我們HTA的量能還有提高它的影響力"},{"start":173.247,"end":193.175,"text":"這個部分但是有一個重點也是一般現在目前社會以及這個相關的這些業界大家比較關心的就是說我們從這個從我們今天送出來法案的設置條例的第三條我們來看有關於這些這強烈我們中心應該辦理的這些醫療科技評估政策研究人才培育國際合作諮詢等等相關業務"},{"start":194.515,"end":221.537,"text":"這些相關的對於這些評估的結果是不是對外公開在我們這個規範裡面沒有是不是能夠請部長說明一下未來這些評估是不是能夠對外公開跟委員報告我們目前對於這個健保要收載的這個新藥或新科技的醫療科技評估報告是有公開目前就有公開所以未來在執行這些的時候也一樣會做公開這個絕對沒有問題那這個公開是只有這個"},{"start":224.714,"end":237.946,"text":"這個對於這個醫界並有團體社會大眾他是指公開結論呢還是包括他評估方法資料來源所有重要假設這些通通一定公開就是整份的報告不是只有結論就是整份的報告我們在網路上公開"},{"start":238.767,"end":262.879,"text":"都會公開因為這個沒有在法條裡面呈現所以這各界比較關心所以這部分我就是很高興今天署長部長都在這邊做清楚的說明那接下來這個另外一個就是我們這次要改制的這個國家中醫研究院我們這個國家中醫研究院過去其實在民國四十幾年那時候就在教育那時候一開始是隸屬於教育部"},{"start":265.183,"end":268.334,"text":"到2013年我們才改立衛福部"},{"start":271.344,"end":296.294,"text":"這個我比較這個其實設施這個國家中醫研究院這個部分其實它最真正的根據是來自憲法徵修條文憲法徵修條文的第十條第五項它就明白規定說國家應該促進現代跟傳統醫藥研究發展是以這個憲法這個徵修條文的依據但是我這裡面比較有興趣的就是說跟改之前跟改之後有一個部分特別"},{"start":297.995,"end":308.691,"text":"注意到這是在我們的這個設置條例的草案第三條的第一項裡面提到說中醫這個醫療業務之執行這本院的業務範圍包括醫療業務之執行"},{"start":314.673,"end":336.269,"text":"也就是未來會不會有門診你未來這個是有附設醫院嗎有沒有門診這個部分我想要講清楚因為如果有就跟現在的限制很不一樣囉對就是跟委員也說明確實這個委員非常的仔細的看到我們未來現在的在機關我們現在是一個機關中醫藥研究所他只單純就是"},{"start":337.871,"end":363.79,"text":"單純就是研究而已可是在研究的過程需要做臨床試驗所以我們現在都採取合作的方式但是未來如果能夠透過行政法人那麼讓用人更有彈性那未來有需要的時候也可以我們預留了空間可能也可以設立這個附屬的醫療院所以你現在變成要執行醫療業務未來是不是設置門診是不是變成一個提供醫療服務的機構"},{"start":366.452,"end":393.125,"text":"這個就很不一樣了你如果說提供一個有提供醫療服務的機構的話未來是醫療的機構還是輻射的醫院還是研究單位還是一個臨床的場域這個都完全是不一樣他是不是會納入醫療法的規範等等的相關的這些問題其實牽涉蠻大這部分是我看到我們未來這次改制可能特別注意我特別注意到這個部分這部分希望"},{"start":394.005,"end":412.604,"text":"是不是有完整的配套齁或者說只是預目前什麼配套都還沒有只是預留在法案預留這個空間而已其實這個八字都一點都還沒有還沒有還沒有那如果未來未來真的要設置相關的醫療機構那我想又是大問題了好 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像最近車城的農會超市前一陣子我們到現場去現勘 我有看到他們的反應 冷凍整個都很壞了對嘛還有我們南區運輸的客人 很好啦我最早做過的事很快 今天有看到那個公文你們有幫忙嗎 幫忙多少幫忙多少"},{"start":51.818,"end":72.706,"text":"三百多萬三百多萬 對 這樣有準 感謝我常常跟補充額外 跟署長額外補充額外 我都在消遣 不會啊我改強頂謝謝委員來 我要問第一次比較嚴重的這兩天天氣溫度很低我今天在氣溫當天出來 十二度如果在氣溫空曠 你看像這樣風這樣煞"},{"start":81.717,"end":108.38,"text":"應該10度以下啦 啊我們漁業暑假齁再去我問一下 那個瓦魚的酒瓣的這個 尤其是我們煮食齁 他們的砂漠魚的更加嚴重啊這個要怎麼處理 要怎麼預防我跟委員報告齁 就是說像我們的養殖漁業的部分喔特別像虱目魚有沒有 它的低溫超過10度以下連續一段時間我們就有所謂的那個天然災害的啟動啦"},{"start":109.661,"end":125.913,"text":"它不用去現勘用天氣的參數然後我們觀察其實在屏東地區它白天溫度還是會回溫那晚上的溫度雖然說偶爾會降到10度C以下但是因為像虱目魚的話它要連續10度C以下一段時間才會凍傷"},{"start":127.934,"end":140.131,"text":"所以它偶而會下降但是它還是在10度12到13度左右它影響就不會那麼大我們會比較密切的去監控如果說遇到天然災害需要啟動我們會馬上來啟動我現在是在問你現在那大部分"},{"start":144.688,"end":154.672,"text":"差不多兩千公頃 幫寮 家當那樣到台我看酒吧的事 我覺得很傷心那天看 這麼大尾的酒吧也凍死了他現在說都不吃東西 不吃東西 又兩天了他說剛才又兩天了 冰島就凍死了還有我住義豐 還是說水家當 高青 我住沒有"},{"start":168.558,"end":192.052,"text":"說到這 屏東的部分的大面積的養殖 他們的殼都更深所以遇到寒流的時候 那個魚兒會躲到那個池底就比較能夠抗寒所以這個部分 魚業署也持續的跟屏東的地區如果說他願意做魚溫的這些改善的時候那我相信在我們能力範圍之內 我們也會來協助啦"},{"start":192.352,"end":205.79,"text":"就是說他如果要再往前移 你們可以幫忙我們可以來協助 可以來幫忙尾巴有沒有好 尾巴有沒有好嘛有擋風的部分啦擋風的部分啦所以 除了這樣移過 也沒有什麼好的"},{"start":209.315,"end":226.522,"text":"就是引入新的海水去讓它升溫然後微網讓它豐有沒有那豐也是靠你豐然後池底加深那這幾個部分如果說漁民特別是挖池底需要一些建設有沒有 工程的部分那我相信農業部在經費許可一定會來協助好"},{"start":228.052,"end":253.402,"text":"那最後一個就是你如果要萬一需要補充你也是用一般的補充 或是說有養殖認證的跟沒有的 步驟不一樣嘛應該是要有養殖登記 養登的才有養登我們屏東關都很慢的嘛 現在幾%每個漁民每天都在靠腰 政府到底是不是在讓他們入伏我看高雄市70% 70%"},{"start":255.55,"end":283.341,"text":"八百萬 要八十萬我可以報告現在我也是跟地方政府在說因為養燈的部分在屏東它是要跟水權 有沒有要合在一起那我現在是主張把水權另外去處理啦然後在其他的縣市它不跟水權在一起的時候它養燈的比例就比較高啦因為屏東縣政府因為地層下限的關係它一直跟水權要取得合法的水權"},{"start":284.521,"end":289.669,"text":"阿姐 問題是你溝通嗎沒有啦 你要 不可以這樣這樣想 只有50幾%而已嘛還是40幾%對呀 你這樣不行 如果遇到風災遇到像這個寒氣你這樣給漁民學變烏龜啦 不對"},{"start":301.418,"end":318.751,"text":"我再來想想有沒有辦法因為養燈的部分是地方政府規定的那我們在天然災害救助看可不可以避開除了養燈以外我們可不可以設計另外一種方式我們再來研究看看有沒有辦法去脫鉤"}]}},{"id":"166894","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166894","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fd6eb9f13b46085ce4473b985e049f91a5aa3b5816bd951efaaf2dd0d3751eaad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:52:26 - 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紐西蘭 加拿大對 還有新南向新南向大概佔我們外銷農產品的市場25%而已對不對差不多這個數字那為什麼會新南向的話只有佔25%是因為我們地區的氣候環境還是我們同質性很高所以我們會競爭比較大 合作比較少"},{"start":173.101,"end":187.099,"text":"我跟委員報告就是新南向的部分要看特定的品項因為本身的氣候環境相對的類似然後本身的品種那個產品之間有它的替代性所以它沒有辦法說"},{"start":188.32,"end":204.32,"text":"全力的一直往東南新南向的地方走所以我們希望說拉到其他的國家像比較北部的比較溫帶的像日本日本韓國的部分或者是美洲的加拿大那邊還有南半球的澳洲紐西蘭的部分來開拓"},{"start":205.861,"end":229.044,"text":"其实如果说是同时性大的话那我们就必须要有一些差异化的产品我们就可以行销到东南亚新南西亚对你找有差异性的这我们要有自己的规划要有要有重新去检视的方式了是好不好是还有刚刚你刚才讲到说很多国家你是讲说外销的其他澳洲哪里哪里你都没有提到欧洲欧盟国家"},{"start":230.045,"end":250.496,"text":"是不是因為距離比較遙遠運輸的問題所以我們要突破這個外銷的瓶頸除了我們農產品不容易保存那我們用冷鏈的方式或者是我們儲存運輸的方式這些都是我們趕快建制好來的話就可以往歐盟國家去發展是不是我跟委員報告 特別是"},{"start":251.296,"end":271.935,"text":"在歐盟的部分過往都是花費比較多然後現在我們的水果像我們很高興就是說番石榴跟芒果有沒有它也可以去外銷但是一旦開放因為檢疫的條件的關係那開放了以後可能要兩年到三年才能夠進到它的市場的正常的通路系統"},{"start":272.796,"end":290.946,"text":"所以像番石流現在可以了那我們現在要積極建立跟對方的通路系統做對接我們不希望說純粹靠貿易商有沒有零單的去輸出可是部長台灣比較有代表性的農產品是鳳梨那為什麼鳳梨不能運銷過去"},{"start":292.046,"end":319.039,"text":"因為台灣的鳳梨基本上它的風味非常好但是它有一個比較脆弱的就是它的果皮不適合比較長期的長程的運輸所以我們一方面我們也開發了一些比較適合長程運輸的這些像芒果鳳梨它比較好的部分可以去做主打那這個部分所以以鳳梨來講我們基本上還是用鄰近的以日本的市場為主的一個策略因為"},{"start":320.161,"end":326.26,"text":"臺灣是個果蠅的疫區啦所以我們對於這個防疫跟檢疫方面的話我們要怎麼再加強"},{"start":327.956,"end":355.211,"text":"我想果蠅的部分那基本上有一些有一些国家像我记得像纽西兰的部分像澳洲的部分它有一些是用切那个凤梨头的方式去病书嘛所以针对简易的部分我们会更精进的在国内的是适合不同的国家外销去做这些可以用蒸热跟冷藏的方式对用冷藏的方式可以出还有节切的部分像凤梨"},{"start":356.508,"end":383.348,"text":"我跟委員報告日本以日本市場他們越來越喜歡我們節切的鳳梨節切好的那節切好的部分他就避開了很多的簡易的一個條件所以很多方法都可以做所以歐盟國家我們不要放棄好不好我們絕對不會放棄調整一下我們整個出口的策略任何有機會的國家我們都不會放棄還有部長請教你的就是說我們外銷的話我們有些產品"},{"start":384.389,"end":402.566,"text":"我们的农产品我们是有它的那个品种权植物的品种权那这植物的品种权的话很多在台湾也好或者是各个国家那他们的有几项有产品的品种权那个品种权非常多大概有几项"},{"start":403.775,"end":427.595,"text":"有爭取到的因為我們必須保留我們的產品的品種權我們國內的現在有302項我們國內的302項取得的國外呢國外的部分有應該是有241項是蝴蝶藍的藍花的部分那水果部分有沒有水果的芒果芒果最主要是芒果的部分"},{"start":429.022,"end":445.527,"text":"不是啊會這樣子詢問你的話最重要是我們要保障農民的權益那有些我們不管是花卉也好水果也好到國外去之後的話我們的品種被人家培育去量產的話對我們的競爭是很大的壓力是不是所以那申請這個品種權的時候可能"},{"start":447.988,"end":473.72,"text":"費用很昂貴程序要走的很遠很久的時間所以我們希望農業部可以協助我們的農民來爭取來申請我們的這個品種權好不好我跟你講我們一直都有在協助就是過往是特別是花卉比較多那其他的農產品的話如果說是公部門因為大部分都是公部門育種出來的然後我們會在目標市場國去取得品種權然後相對的如果私人品種的話"},{"start":474.48,"end":494.44,"text":"如果他願意到國外去做品種權申請的話我們也很樂意來協助主動協助啦對 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請時部長"},{"start":10.246,"end":38.778,"text":"吳委員好部長好這幾天我們在告訴你一些比較不幸的消息就是說我們12月份有一個文建站的負責人因為在主持成果展的時候倒下去他目前是呈現就是大概是臥床的狀態然後有一個就是我們新義鄉新鄉村的村長就要前天告別是因為他在主持一個槌球運動會的時候也是倒下去就送到醫院就不治"},{"start":39.338,"end":67.648,"text":"那昨天呢我們有處理到一個在金門工作的族人呢然後腦溢血71年次的一個婦女然後今年急救以後送到台北榮總然後今天要把管回家我最主要要講的這些提到這些問題就是說我們一直在講平均與面差距這麼多我們到底要用哪一個層級的來處理這些我們原住民的健康的議題所以我們一直在講要有一個專責單位"},{"start":69.148,"end":97.557,"text":"講了這麼久我們看看原住民主基本法已經成立20年了結果我們的自治還是躺在那裡從蔡英文總統還有陳水扁總統都說很重視原住民我們也相信也肯定過去我們公衛體系對弱勢族群的健康照顧可是這些我覺得都還是不夠原住民主健康法已經公佈兩年了他說一個專責單位我想知道說石崇良部長你內心的想法"},{"start":99.468,"end":116.538,"text":"跟委員報告其實在行政院的層級就已經有原住民委員會它就是一個獨立的機關它是一個二級的單位在健康的部分當然就是由衛福部來負全責"},{"start":117.919,"end":137.447,"text":"所以我們希望專責單位能夠提升到屬的層級因為它目前還是屬於我們護理及健康照護師下面的一個原住民族及離島健康科的一個層級所以你要處理這些我剛才所講的顯著的健康不平等現在的層級沒有辦法去"},{"start":138.328,"end":153.623,"text":"處理我們剛剛一直在說的你要成立比如說在南橫地區要成立洗腎室在偏鄉地區要成立分醫院花東地區的一個因為地理的關係常常就是因為救命沒有辦法救到然後我們現在的離島醫院的一個"},{"start":154.644,"end":171.913,"text":"設立的時候他其實確實是需要跨部會的一個努力還有獨特的照護需求我們的長期照顧的一個文化的敏感度文化安全這些都需要一個專責單位來統一來處理不然現在我就說就關一個園民會或者是我們現在的"},{"start":172.493,"end":201.315,"text":"貴科裡面我覺得他們會疲於奔命而且是沒有看到顯著的效應我希望部長能夠確確實實的從這次的一個修法的契機裡面我提了第二條第五條第八條這個修法裡面能夠做一個組織改造我們期待這次有兒家署也有照發署我是在大概第五條的部分有成立然後希望能夠在第七款這邊能夠成立援助民主健康照顧署"},{"start":202.236,"end":209.027,"text":"我希望有一個對話的空間讓這件事情能夠有下一步"},{"start":210.923,"end":229.876,"text":"對於這個原住民族健康的關注我們絕對是會放更多的資源跟關注不過我們也同樣的關注離島偏鄉所以這些都是整個體制上我們都要去建立的所以在這個原住民的特殊性上我們有一個這個"},{"start":232.237,"end":253.671,"text":"這個護理及健康照護師裡面有一個科那這個科到底一個科夠不夠需不需要再更多的資源能力來投入呢我們都會一時俱進地去檢討不過整個整個整個健康照護上絕對是這個跨部門跨單位啦從健康的促進到醫療的照護到這個保險到長照這個我們"},{"start":259.054,"end":286.508,"text":"這個在整個部裡面一定會來這個負起這個援助民族健康的責任所以請委員放心只是說我還是從你的回答裡面可以聽到說很像第二條的專責機構你還是維持在我們的科的層級這是讓人遺憾那我們這個組織法草案我的第二條有看到一些我們的九大職長就是無論從政策法規健康不平等調查"},{"start":287.328,"end":315.793,"text":"健康資源的部件人才教育醫療整合健康資料庫長期照顧國際交流這些我希望這些議題裡面在目前如果只是在科的層級上的話希望部長能夠對這些議題能夠多所著墨讓我們原住民的這些健康不平等還有我們的平均餘命能夠確實的得到改善謝謝這個絕對在這每一個範圍裡頭都會特別關注到原住民的特殊性好 謝謝部長謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166892","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166892","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f10a306d77e92ffdc5d44f5a94e3adf353ec197a1c72cb6c494c373f717d6a0d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:43:45 - 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剛剛委員其實我們這個問題我們經過非常長期深入的討論因為我想過去就是一刀切65歲不管你的狀況如何就規定要做這件事情剛剛委員也提到了你做了這件事情以後是不是就對他反正他舉證的責任就要到他身上去了"},{"start":183.542,"end":203.618,"text":"當然我的意思是說其實本來這是一個荷寶專業的問題不是年齡的問題不會說你65歲以下就隨便都可以65歲以上要加強保護這個其實這樣單以年齡做切這不符合保險的學理這不公平 對它是一個專業荷寶的問題不管你幾歲你的條件不允許"},{"start":204.618,"end":230.467,"text":"這時候你就要必須加強保護了不是因為你的年紀的關係尤其現在高齡化社會來了其實很多65歲的人他會覺得說主委我清楚但是我回歸到各保險公司自己去訂那個標準不是他自己訂標準是說我們不會用單一的方式來解決這個問題我們就是說保險公司他自己有更好的專業去判斷他客戶適不適合的時候他把這方法告訴我如果你沒有方法你就用這個方法"},{"start":231.167,"end":255.84,"text":"如果你有好的方法的話你說服了我覺得已經可以保護他但是主委就是說每個保險業務員每一個人對於這些判斷的能力專業他或許不一樣有時候我擔心的是未來有可能會產生更多的相關的推這個保險過程的爭議我覺得有可能會有"},{"start":256.28,"end":271.835,"text":"沒事的時候沒事當發生事情的時候這個子女來去發現這個怎麼過程怎麼樣要釐清的時候就發現怎麼這個缺那個那個沒有所以這個會有很多的問題我覺得這個是我要提醒主委怎麼去做防範我這邊跟委員"},{"start":275.479,"end":292.356,"text":"那主委我要提的就是說因為你們制度已經做調整了就是說未來當發生這些爭議又沒有錄音又沒有錄影的狀況的時候保險公司跟業務員要如何制正自己沒有不當的行為就是說當下我覺得我今年可能沒有到65"},{"start":294.257,"end":321.588,"text":"當下我現在狀況很好但是有時候年齡到斷崖式的衰老你知道嗎所以在很多的認知能力一下子就他可能是有一些狀況但不是那麼清楚所以我怎麼樣就是業務員他怎麼樣去提出更多的證據才會被金管會所採納當發生爭議的時候所以這個就會有很多模糊的地帶怎麼去做判斷我想到時候你們在處理這些問題的時候你們自己可能都會很頭痛"},{"start":322.928,"end":349.43,"text":"這個是我要藉今天的質詢來提醒主委的地方我覺得簡化行政程序你們一定有你們的考量我覺得當然過去的程序非常反覆跟非常的瑣碎所以你們有一定的政策跟利益良善但是彈性的鬆綁之後後續衍生了保險跟消費的爭議如何去做處理我覺得你們可能要明定的更清楚"},{"start":350.231,"end":372.467,"text":"那個流程要那個灰色地帶怎麼去處理其實我有個認知上的差異這不是鬆綁或許我用鬆綁這兩個字你制度去做調整但是我只是提醒你這個未來如何去做處理的時候我現在沒有到65我可能是常常忘記但我突然現在八個人裡面就有一個有失智症而且前期而且那個有時候"},{"start":373.388,"end":399.893,"text":"一往上的時候那個斷崖式的那個落差就會非常大以後發生這些事情的時候業務員怎麼去舉證家屬怎麼去舉證你們如何去做判斷這個太多的模糊地帶我覺得你們應該有更清楚的一些當發生這些事情你們必須要有更多的更多的方式去解決處理這是我第一個議題我覺得我希望主委你要對外說清楚講明白第一這個也是保護"},{"start":401.523,"end":424.437,"text":"高齡的保護者的權益第二對於保險公司業務員來說他有一個更清楚的依循在教育訓練上可以更清楚這是我要提醒主委的地方容我講一句話其實每家公司他有不同的核保政策他屬於哪一家公司業務員是屬於哪一家公司就這義務做好教育訓練跟對業務員行為責任的連帶責任"},{"start":429.88,"end":449.373,"text":"我知道但是主委面對人的判斷人的狀況身體教育什麼金融知識有時候都是很瞬間的這個很難去說你叫他要負責我覺得有時候就像我剛剛舉的例子我以我個人來做舉例"},{"start":449.893,"end":469.345,"text":"就是那個是一下子你很難去做判斷這是我要提醒您的地方主委我第二個我還是很關心我們2050年我們敬您的目標我們永續我們在ESG當中我們有要求很多新的包括未來永續的報告書我們未來是強制的要去做相關的"},{"start":471.026,"end":497.26,"text":"規範跟規定過去過去可能是有一些要求但未來都變成是一個義務性的規定我覺得這是好事情因為我們也準備了一段時間但是我也看到有幾個相關的問題當然我們ESC裡面我們規範的更清楚包括譬如說以食品業者來說他就必須要有會計師的準則公報進行相關的驗證的一些意見書要求在裡頭"},{"start":498.32,"end":517.63,"text":"那2023年我們更擴大要有第三方驗證的相關的報告書那這個產業的範圍我們要求擴大到化學工業金融保險業那這個部分我們為了就是說防範企業的票率我們做了第三方驗證的要求那我們這第三方驗證的要求規劃的時間點是什麼時候要全面的推"},{"start":526.08,"end":549.559,"text":"對 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謝謝部長跟副人事長那麼今天因為主要是涉及到就是衛福部要多成立兩個三級機關一個兒少署還有一個長照社會署那麼在這邊的話本席想請教因為依照人事總署的報告有說現在三級機關的這個局跟署在總數不變的情況之下然後可以進行做調整是不是請教張副"},{"start":62.799,"end":83.391,"text":"人事長意思是這樣嗎好謝謝委員的詢問那現在三級機關這個屬局的總數是71個那現在是這個滿的狀態那為不這次調整是在他原來的配置底下去做一個"},{"start":84.091,"end":105.18,"text":"所以好 那請教那個部長所以你們現在是在你們既有的三級機關裡面有五個署一個局所以你們是在這五個署一個局裡面然後再去增加兩個署還是說你們是把社會家庭署看起來是要把它拆解成為多兩個一個署變成兩個署"},{"start":107.106,"end":124.169,"text":"跟委員說明我們在本來我們的組織配置裡面是五署一局但是那個局是還沒有設立那個是預留的就是國民年金局那我們現在把這個局就不再設立了我們設立這個兒少級家庭支持署"},{"start":124.85,"end":140.156,"text":"那另外我们现有的这个社会及家庭署我们把这个里面的一些业务移到了这个儿少然后再把一些长照的业务移入所以变成长照及社会发展署"},{"start":140.376,"end":168.487,"text":"是 謝謝部長的解釋所以你的本心了解就是你們還是在系有的三級機關就是六個的總數底下然後去做組織的一些調整但是國民年金局你們不打算成立嗎為什麼不成立目前的國民年金的業務的話就會在這個社會及家庭署裡面這個長照及這個長照及社會發展署裡頭"},{"start":169.758,"end":189.944,"text":"但是這應該是兩個不同型態的業務吧我們目前的國民年金有一個監理會我們現在是有一個國民年金監理會做監理的業務那另外國民年金的這個法制的部分是在社會級就是社保司社會保險司裡頭"},{"start":191.184,"end":214.992,"text":"那社會保險司的業務裡面呢把有關於這個健保的法規的部分呢移回到這個健保署然後國民年金的法規的部分移到因為今天聽您這樣講我會重新再回去看當時為什麼在衛福部組織法裡面要設立國民年金局的主要的立法理由是什麼"},{"start":215.692,"end":242.803,"text":"那么难道就是因为要多成立一个长照署所以就把国民年金局给删掉那么这个业务的整并有没有道理那么我这个本席还会再多进行研究但是呢就除了就是你们讲的这个要多成立两个署之外还有在这次的报告里面以及今天要审的法案本来要审的法案就是有涉及到就既有限卫福部底下一些组织要转型成为行政法人"},{"start":243.844,"end":260.236,"text":"對但你要轉型成行政法人這裡面就是有沒有一些有這個組織有疊床架屋的問題譬如說前面的委員有提到叫你要新成立國家醫療評估中心那事實上國家醫療評估中心可能跟既有的本就是我們現在"},{"start":261.697,"end":278.045,"text":"這個政府部門裡面有一些單位是很類似的譬如說有這個財團法人生物技術開發中心或是工研院他也有做一些醫療照顧或是新藥等等這些研究所以有沒有必要再去成立一個國家醫療評估中心在難道沒有跌床駕屋的問題嗎"},{"start":279.105,"end":302.225,"text":"跟委員說明 目前在健保要考慮要不要納入給付之前都要先經過醫療科技就是HTA醫療科技的評估那目前都是委託財團法人來某一個財團法人就是我們現在是CDE醫藥品查驗中心這個財團法人來做那都等於是委託的性質那未來呢希望他有獨立性"},{"start":303.266,"end":330.709,"text":"所以就剛剛有幾位委員也提到那麼以其他的國家這個是獨立性的了解了 謝謝部長因為我想就是說有沒有成立的必要這個部分的話當然就是可能衛福部有衛福部的看法但是本席更在意的是說你不管說今天要成立一個新的國家醫療評估中心或者是未來這個中醫研究所要改轉型成為國家中醫研究院那到底需要多少的公務預算來支持這些行政法人"},{"start":332.25,"end":357.746,"text":"你要拼多少的预算跟委员报告就是说这两个行政他们可以做到自给自足吗这个一方面他当然也会有一些这个比如说在做医药科技评估的时候的预算那么还是会有政府的支持因为这个是健保要纳入是但是基本上不要多增加政府的预算就本席的看法就是说是你要转型成为多成立这些行政法人"},{"start":359.848,"end":375.127,"text":"我也沒有太大的意見但重點是說會不會增加政府的預算支出我們現在很多的預算都要希望能夠用在刀口上不要再多增加政府的預算支出所以這個部分的話可能要請就是部長您在這裡再提供給我更仔細的一個"},{"start":376.728,"end":383.054,"text":"報告就是如果依照你們現在的評估要成立這兩個中心那麼實際上要多少錢的預算來支應以及這兩個行政法人成立之後未來他們怎麼樣從哪個地方可以獲得充裕的財源來自給自足那這部分的話請部長可能"},{"start":396.725,"end":415.817,"text":"兩個禮拜之內給我一份報告對於這個財務的規劃接下來我還有一個問題我也想請教部長因為剛剛其實大家也都談到高雄新衛之郎那本席其實在這裡比較關心的就是說對於他的這個主管就是上級主管新衛中心的主任"},{"start":417.018,"end":435.047,"text":"還有高雄市的衛生局局長那麼以及這個督導他的妻子因為他是任職在社會局加防中心他還利用職權洩密然後查詢偵辦進度等等對於這三個人你們目前有沒有知道就是你們有沒有給他們有些懲處的機制你們有給他懲處的處分嗎這個全縣都是在地方政府"},{"start":443.533,"end":459.676,"text":"全縣的部分在地方證據我們的了解呢這個殖密在8月的時候已經由這個地方政府已經把它解聘了已經停聘撤職那對於新聞中心的主任呢他的上級的主管"},{"start":460.799,"end":479.012,"text":"您說 行為中心的主任啊對 我們被懲處在他們的內部上是他們內部要去做的檢討就全責的部分只是檢討而已嗎行為中心的主任還有高雄市衛生局局長衛生局局長是不是衛福部你們是他的主管機關上級機關"},{"start":481.752,"end":488.339,"text":"他是這個政務官是在地方政府的權責好那所以呢對於衛生局局長行為中心主任以及在他在這個這個督導他的妻子因為他在加防中心相關目前的有沒有予以懲處的"},{"start":497.968,"end":514.141,"text":"的一些作為我也希望衛福部這邊也可以給我一份資料了解知道說他們的情況是怎麼樣最後還有一題就是因為我們馬上年關將近就進入到農曆的春節那在去年的時候我們看到春節的急診室"},{"start":516.082,"end":534.371,"text":"非常的庸塞病床不足那麼請問部長這邊有沒有針對馬上二月就要來臨的這個春節對於目前急診室的處理的問題還有病床數的部分衛福部有沒有新的計畫"},{"start":534.991,"end":549.388,"text":"有 我们已经召开了好几次的会议那也拟定了很多的措施是那包含在这个春节的加开诊的这个鼓励还有在这个你们预计增加多少的病床数预计增加"},{"start":550.049,"end":577.059,"text":"多少病床数增加应该是这样过去在年节期间医院会缩床因为这个医护人员也要休息然后有些病人也比较不会就是属于常规性的没有急迫性的大概也会选择不要到医院所以过去在年节期间大概医院的床数都是会下降的那我们目前在做的调查就是第一个开诊的调查"},{"start":578.139,"end":592.815,"text":"9天的長假當中哪幾天哪些醫院診所會開診第二個床數會開多少所以這個我們目前已經都在進行調查簡單來說你們現在開診數跟病床數會不會比去年增加"},{"start":594.848,"end":621.763,"text":"會 會會增加多少 多少的比例呢最後的數字還沒有出來不過什麼時候會出來什麼時候會告訴我們民眾因為每年的農曆春節正好都會遇到天氣寒冷 寒流難免生病的人數也會增加但是你剛剛說又顧及到醫護人員他們也需要放假休假但是我們還是希望在合理的範圍裡面要提高開診的診所以及病床數"},{"start":623.404,"end":646.105,"text":"我們會調控啦那當然第一個比較好的這個現象是說我們的流感在去年每年的過年期間都是高峰但是今年因為我們的施打率不錯所以目前的流感還在低峰所以往後預估的話應該今年的過年期間流感的病人不會像往年那麼多這是一個比較好的預估啦"},{"start":646.485,"end":661.067,"text":"只是你們預估但是有時候可能會改不上變化我這邊還是希望部長能夠盡速你們大概什麼時候什麼時候會公布你們會增加病床數我們在月底之前就會通通月底之前好 那本席期待希望你們能夠如期做到好 謝謝謝謝我也關心"}]}},{"id":"166890","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166890","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f05f29535198a95424473b985e049f91a3ec197a1c72cb6c4547d61b99647e9e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:42:44 - 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謝謝主委 是不是請農業部陳部長 漁業署王署長我們請農業部陳部長 還有我們漁業署署長 謝謝這個這個"},{"start":25.589,"end":44.911,"text":"史無前例這個立法院今年度的中央政府總預算都還沒覆違這個當然會影響很大那不審新興計畫就沒有辦法動之那很多的這個政策就沒有辦法推動我想請教部長就是說針對總預算不審"},{"start":47.818,"end":72.552,"text":"會影響到農業部相關的預算它規模到什麼程度我跟委員報告我們內部經過計算以後大概總共的預算大概有將近91億是不能動之的分兩個區塊一個區塊是新興的計畫是完全不能動的大概16點多億那另外一個是延續性計畫但是因為我們增加了很多項目"},{"start":73.552,"end":88.724,"text":"那增加了不能動之你只能沿用增加的部分大概有70億所以兩個加起來74億啦加起來大概有90億所以我在這邊新計劃不是不能動之要經過立法院同意對如果假設真的完全都不審"},{"start":89.705,"end":108.077,"text":"那你們針對新興計畫要提到立法院請立法院同意有沒有這種想法我想我們最大的根本還是希望總預算能夠進到副委副委來討論嘛那如果對農業部分的經費有任何疑議我們都願意跟委員做溝通跟協商"},{"start":109.137,"end":133.624,"text":"那總預算過才會包括新興的部分跟延續的部分一併來處理主要是要照顧農漁民發展農漁業農漁民農漁業是相對在產業結構裡面相對比較弱勢需要政府更多的協助特別請王署長我想請教如果這個總預算不省影響漁業署預算我們對第二類漁港的建設補助"},{"start":134.904,"end":151.917,"text":"以及對養殖儀業的這個補助的影響大概規模有多大跟委員報告現在我們新興的部分特別是養殖的生產端管理像一些供排水系統或是養殖區生產道路的一些建設都會受到影響"},{"start":152.597,"end":176.33,"text":"那這一個部分大概有一兩億的預算那我的漁港的部分因為漁港部分現在在配合財化法的修正的部分因為二類漁港的部分屬於這個地方資本府的主管權責那一個部分在我們原來預算編列的時候就已經配合財化法的修正已經調成地方的這種一般性的補助款 是"},{"start":177.151,"end":189.245,"text":"那如果非二類漁港,比方說在我的選區你也知道你常常去永安、彌陀、紫關、興達港這些漁港要怎麼讓它現代化"},{"start":190.642,"end":214.069,"text":"設施的這個提升漁港建設的這個投入會不會影響委員雖然說我們現在配合財化法的修正一些協助地方政府建設二類漁港的經費已經切到地方政府去了但是如果說地方政府確實因為預算的一個短缺需要延提比較大型的這種中長城計劃"},{"start":215.109,"end":234.25,"text":"那只要地方政府原體上來我們署裡面會協助我有做會審對針對我的選區包括紫關彌陀永安跟興大港這些都是老舊的漁港需要現代化漁民作業安全或者是漁產交易環境的改善"},{"start":236.132,"end":249.288,"text":"這個如果提這個專案計劃呢是就是提專案計劃我們絕對會來支持協助像行政院來爭取比較有高雄市政府提出一個專案計劃專案計劃但你要抱怨嘛"},{"start":250.269,"end":270.828,"text":"我跟委員如果同意的話我跟委員報告一下就是在整個經費的運用上面來講雖然說二類漁港是地方政府但是地方政府如果裁員可能分配上面可能不夠的時候他可以提專案您說的專案計畫專案計畫就是中唐人公共建設那中唐人公共建設經過國會審定行政院核可以後這個有沒有在總預算的範圍裡面這個目前"},{"start":273.9,"end":289.952,"text":"已經有切到地方的話 我的意思是說如果高雄市政府提出這個鄰港建設專案計畫不要說他提出20億 這20億有沒有包括在農業部的年度預算也包括在裡面後續如果行政院中長城計畫審議通過了 還是編在我農業部啊"},{"start":293.114,"end":311.932,"text":"就是由中央補助地方的經費額度裡面去那也沒那麼快 最快也要到 如果是今年入體啦那一定是列入民工資產嘛我們大概每一年的中南農公共建設依規定大概是在2月底 然後開始審最慢是5月底之前要提送所以這個在潮發法的限制之下這也是一個解決的方案對"},{"start":313.84,"end":334.518,"text":"我會覺得全盤把整個高雄市的漁港建設就透過專案計畫來這個會比較一勞永逸我跟委員報告雖然說我們有一些是切到地方去但是它的建設如果是對整個的產業的影響的話那中央政府會有相關的另外的一個協助大概會這樣的方式"},{"start":334.718,"end":362.534,"text":"第二問題請教一下部長就是這個台美關稅的談判還沒有最後的一個最後的結論出來但是應該談得差不多了我是比較關心這個農業的部分農業的部分之前大家討論關注大概就是加強對美國的採購而且不是由政府編的運算去採購是由民間這個都由民間的部分"},{"start":363.394,"end":377.633,"text":"有沒有牽涉到比較敏感的部分比方說市場的開放我想所謂的市場開放基本上就是所說的關稅的部分那關稅是一定會在談判裡面會去觸及的"},{"start":379.963,"end":396.19,"text":"但是我們會堅持的就是所有的品項裡面它對台灣的農民是衝擊是最小的然後這種市場開放是對於我們成本是有幫助的那另外一類是什麼我們本來就有開放了"},{"start":396.69,"end":416.143,"text":"然後如果說讓美國的關稅比較低的時候他只是在競爭國之間有沒有輸入的競爭國之間去做互相的取代如果從國家利益角度來看美國一定從這個關稅的談判中是讓美國的國家利益最大化嘛對這個有時候國家利益之間是零和的"},{"start":416.994,"end":434.297,"text":"他的國家利益最大化就是我們國家利益可能會受到影響那我們就是讓我們的農業的影響是降到最低我們是用這種角度去所以你有把握你有信心如果他的要求不要說對市場開放這個部分你有這個信心可以因應"},{"start":435.553,"end":461.762,"text":"確保這個農民的生計或者是農業產業不會受到太大的衝擊我跟委員報告我們大概分三類一類就是開放以後是對完全對我們沒有影響反而是有幫助的像黃曉玉的部分嘛那第二類的部分就是我們那個我了解對 比較說影響是大一些的確可能會有一些有必須某個程度的影響那美國程度的影響的話我們就會用產業支持的方案去協助他"},{"start":462.363,"end":465.036,"text":"這些方案出來了嗎我們都已經準備好了第三類"},{"start":466.314,"end":491.732,"text":"你說還有第三種都已經準備好了你說第一類就是黃小玉對第二類就是說我開放之後會對產業衝擊你會有產業支持方案對還有其他的嗎大概就大概我們分三類另外一類是競爭對手國輸入國彼此之間的競爭去取代他對台灣的整個市場的交易也不會影響那第三類才會有某個程度的影響那某個程度的影響我們就產業支持方案去協助"},{"start":492.452,"end":513.271,"text":"所以你們有相關的因應方案可以克服這些關稅的衝擊對 農糧的漁業的畜牧的我們每一個品項都做了這樣的一個評估最終方案如果攤出來對台灣的農業不是造成太大影響我們認為其實台灣的農業沒有想像那麼脆弱我們有沒有韌性我們絕對有那個韌性"},{"start":515.191,"end":530.159,"text":"沒有那麼脆弱啦所以如果這個出來大家跟大家的期待有很大的落差的時候要怎麼樣去跟這個農運民做說服或者去跟農運民去說明或者討論"},{"start":531.958,"end":554.237,"text":"對 所以我們現在其實對於我很擔心啦因為這個最後的文本還沒出來如果跟我們的期待有落差的時候你們應該趕快跟受到影響的榮譽民去做溝通 做說明以及相關的支持方案要很明確跟大家知道我想我們如果公開了以後我想我們第一時間就會提出相關的一個完整的方案我們都已經準備好那"},{"start":554.958,"end":578.151,"text":"等到一旦公布了以後我想我們第一時間就會跟各地的相關的利害關係的農民去做一個說明這個我們一定會做到所以你們有信心把農業育民顧好把農業產業顧好我個人是有信心因為台灣的農業沒有那麼脆弱而且台灣農業應該有它的競爭力漁業也是也是好 謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166922","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166922","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fb2815be7da46390a781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e92dd89391cbd2639a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:53:21 - 11:02:15","影片長度":"00:08:54","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T10:53:21+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T11:02:15+08:00","duration":534,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.17409375,"end":4.8572187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.15534375,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.387218750000002,"end":34.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.48534375,"end":54.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.52034375,"end":58.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.789718750000006,"end":65.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.62409375,"end":74.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.59784375000001,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.63971875,"end":74.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.38221875,"end":105.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.22971875,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.02159375000001,"end":134.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.59221875,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.42659375,"end":165.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.49034375000002,"end":172.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.13471875000002,"end":177.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.91034375,"end":191.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.22034375,"end":208.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.28096875,"end":211.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.13284375,"end":212.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.49034375000002,"end":219.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.30034375000002,"end":244.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.81971875000002,"end":245.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.37659375,"end":269.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.69346875,"end":269.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.41909375,"end":294.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.41096875,"end":347.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.73596875000004,"end":357.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.24096875000004,"end":360.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.13909375000003,"end":361.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.76346875,"end":410.58284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.40971875,"end":425.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.58471875000004,"end":426.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.05284375,"end":427.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.60971875,"end":428.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.89221875000004,"end":430.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.18721875,"end":435.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.10221875,"end":438.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.86534375,"end":440.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.78909375,"end":467.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.59471875,"end":476.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.93534375,"end":478.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.04471875,"end":483.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.83721875000003,"end":488.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.42721875,"end":505.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.09534375000004,"end":508.32284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.52534375000005,"end":517.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.76034375,"end":530.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.46284375,"end":532.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.2222187500001,"end":532.38659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.233,"end":14.632,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請內政部馬次長委員早安"},{"start":15.424,"end":34.58,"text":"好次長好今天這個國安法的修法非常重要認為不分黨派都應該要站出來支持是因為現在滲透的形態已經變得非常的多樣多元那大家如果真的都認為國家安全很重要守護台灣很重要就不應該像剛剛在程旭發言的時候一樣"},{"start":35.801,"end":53.957,"text":"藍白不斷的用說什麼打壓言論自由然後說什麼在野黨的意見未來不能表達然後說什麼未來只要跟我們總統的意見跟執政黨的意見不一致就會受到打壓請問我們現在修法的內容有包含這些嗎"},{"start":54.737,"end":64.757,"text":"包委員完全沒有 我想在正常的言論自由範圍內以及我們對於時事政務的評論這都不在我們這次的國安法的一個修法的範圍內"},{"start":65.677,"end":93.053,"text":"好 謝謝次長的說明像剛剛藍白罵我們執政黨罵這麼久也都沒事嘛他們過去罵這麼久也都沒事嘛都不會有事所以就完全不在我們這次修法的範圍裡面我不太懂為什麼剛剛要花這麼多時間來討論跟今天修法無關的內容那他們說這個羅織罪名說我們未來修法之後反而會羅織更多罪名在我看來完全錯誤理解今天的修法"},{"start":93.613,"end":113.292,"text":"我們今天的修法應該是要把我們的法律更明確化未來更精確 更限縮 更知道要觸犯法律會要符合什麼樣的要件才對吧 次長委員講得完全正確 我想羅茲罪名也好或者是前置言論自由也好這個在我們這次修法裡面是完全不存在"},{"start":114.113,"end":140.446,"text":"因為這次的修法包括說我們剛剛有提到我們會參考國際公約的標準那麼國際公約上面對於人權的保障言論自由的保障他都有一定的規範所以我們不會去超越這樣的一個規範那在我們修法的過程裡面也經過包括跟學者專家還有各部門的討論所以剛剛包括其他委員所提到的這些問題都並不在這次的修法的範圍內"},{"start":141.499,"end":164.752,"text":"好 謝謝次長的說明剛剛其實幾位委員不斷的拿鄭南榮我們非常尊敬的前輩出來背書說要支持百分之百的言論自由但是完全錯用了鄭南榮前輩論述的內容百分之百的言論自由是要捍衛人權是要守護民主而不是拿著百分之百的言論來消滅我們的民主國家"},{"start":165.592,"end":191.372,"text":"所以我聽到的時候其實非常的心痛我們在乎的人權 在乎的民主怎麼會在這種挫制的情況底下拿鄭南榮前輩出來背書所以剛剛其實次長有講到這個國際公約講得很清楚任何鼓吹戰爭的宣傳都應該以法律禁止之這個是國際公約的精神也是所有民主國家在捍衛的內容"},{"start":192.293,"end":212.378,"text":"我們在乎民主的話就不會讓這些什麼恐攻的言論不會讓這種恐嚇的言論侵略他國主權的言論在民主國家裡面發生如果我們認為這樣叫做言論自由那很抱歉這個是民主的自殺好 謝謝次長那我們再來請法務部委員好"},{"start":220.322,"end":244.424,"text":"好 次長好 跟你請教一下因為其實現在共諜的形態威脅這種滲透的形態非常的多元第一種就是它滲透的對象過去可能只是高階的現役軍人但現在其實連民間的宮廟啊 一些社團啊甚至是一些台商各式各樣的對象都是他們滲透接觸的對象 是吧"},{"start":245.484,"end":269.059,"text":"是所以像這樣子的漏洞在這一次的這個修法當中是不是也把滲透的對象還有一些資料收集的類型包括說過去可能要的只是一些純粹的軍事機密但現在連什麼立院助理的名單然後連沈伯陽委員的住處連這種類似的這種民間的資料他們都會拿去收集"},{"start":270.479,"end":294.593,"text":"對然後再來就是所以我們現在這一次修法的這個包括對象包括收集的資料的類型還有方法的改變其實都是我認為非常重中之重非常急迫應該要馬上來補破網的內容那我在這邊舉幾個兩個簡單的例子一個是何建華一個是王秉忠那我為什麼會特別舉這兩個例子是因為這兩個人都被起訴但是被判無罪"},{"start":295.473,"end":308.541,"text":"那這是我當時也覺得很驚訝很明顯他們在做的執行的內容都很明顯就是統戰然後接受中共配合中共唱喝中共的一些滲透的行為啊甚至這個何建華當時他還針對我進行情搜把我一些造謠的內容提供給中共"},{"start":315.405,"end":320.687,"text":"甚至他執行的一些內容都已經很明確講說他要作為兩岸統一的極先鋒然後在黨中央當然是中共黨中央的力量配合他們然後把台灣的中配要組織起來進行兩岸的統一他都講到這麼明確了檢方也提供相關的資料了可是當時的法院就是判他無罪因為他說"},{"start":338.894,"end":360.627,"text":"他沒有說這個跟國安法定義的接觸招攬吸收新成員加入組織的行為本質不同所以這次的修法的內容是不是可以把以上這種很明確他已經是參與滲透組織的這種類型把它框進去是我們的草案的第一項第二款就列進去了"},{"start":361.206,"end":387.003,"text":"好 那隨便是不是在這邊請次長再次的說明包括我剛剛講到的何建華的這種例子他說因為何建華有講到說希望祖國能對在台的大陸籍人士摸底然後把這些中配進行人口的普查然後在網稿中的這個內容裡面他也有發現一個新火梯計畫然後還有把這個內容分成分級的獎金制度要針對哪一些對象台灣的軍方 台灣的誰進行這些內應的勢力"},{"start":391.226,"end":407.573,"text":"他這個計畫都寫得非常明確當時法院判他們無罪是說他們沒有實際執行可是這個計畫跟白紙黑字就在檢方搜到的資料裡面那請問像這種類型這一次有沒有辦法也把它補進我們的這個國安法的修法裡面"},{"start":411.431,"end":440.328,"text":"我想剛才有特別提到參與組織參與組織現在已經我們希望把它補起來參與我們第一款的所謂的足以危害國家安全跟社會安定的組織參加的部分我們會把它補起來那當然行為太陽非常的多元我們會針對每一個構成要件我們會持續的去蒐證那因為有時候會有一些蒐證上的一些困難不過我們會努力"},{"start":441.708,"end":466.957,"text":"但是我必須要補充我剛剛講的這個例子檢方的證據都非常明確了甚至檢方還搜到說他王炳忠已經接觸了非常多對現役的軍人然後建立了接觸的名單然後把這個互動的進度全部都列表列得很清楚了可是法院當時判他無罪是認為說他的互動內容是只有吃飯聊天然後說這個叫做一般的社交往來"},{"start":470.4,"end":476.53,"text":"这个就是我们在侦查上收证的一些困难点因为它毕竟是很隐秘的"},{"start":477.062,"end":497.647,"text":"那這樣的行為在評價上面法官的評價我們也只能尊重但是如果說這個是不符合我們的判斷的話我們也依法提起上訴所以這就是我希望這次國安法可以一併補足的部分而不是說未來只能尊重法院的判決然後法院只會說喔這個是一般社交往來喔這個沒有實際執行喔這個對他們來說只是他們的想像但是並沒有實際要進行發展組織"},{"start":506.169,"end":530.594,"text":"但這個內容都很明確啊對這個就不是構成要件的問題而是法官他對於他這個構成要件的解讀評價是不一樣的所以我當然會希望說這個構成要件我們把它更明確之後未來什麼叫做參與組織什麼叫做發展組織包括他滲透的對象包括他進行的行為這些樣態我們都可以更明確的來討論好嗎是是好謝謝市長"}]}},{"id":"166921","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166921","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fc98ea6268820736c781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e9f51ed4bceb2f374b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:44:31 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Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T10:44:31+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T10:53:05+08:00","duration":514,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.8072187500000001,"end":2.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":4.570343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.24534375,"end":6.122843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.56096875,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.590343750000002,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.15971875,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.037218750000001,"end":19.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.43284375,"end":21.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.74909375,"end":22.238468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.28471875,"end":23.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.769718750000003,"end":26.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.73971875,"end":30.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.92909375,"end":33.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.20284375,"end":37.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.438468750000006,"end":40.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.12159375,"end":43.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.87221875,"end":47.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.057218750000004,"end":50.048468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.453468750000006,"end":52.697843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.119718750000004,"end":54.469718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.908468750000004,"end":57.659093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.148468750000006,"end":60.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.337843750000005,"end":62.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.384093750000005,"end":66.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.56909375000001,"end":69.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.62346875,"end":70.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.15909375000001,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.44534375,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.08221875000001,"end":78.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.97221875000001,"end":81.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.07721875,"end":84.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.43971875000001,"end":85.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.43096875,"end":92.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.94471875,"end":97.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.61909375,"end":99.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.66096875000001,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.63534375,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.95159375,"end":104.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.87096875,"end":108.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.62159375,"end":110.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.37659375000001,"end":111.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.36784375,"end":113.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.71784375,"end":116.11409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.56971875,"end":117.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.02096875000001,"end":119.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.65784375000001,"end":121.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.32846875000001,"end":130.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.09909375,"end":134.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.60909375,"end":137.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.05159375,"end":141.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.29159375,"end":142.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.64159375,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.22784375,"end":145.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.42596875,"end":146.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.99096875,"end":149.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.77971875,"end":151.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.29409375,"end":153.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.06596875,"end":156.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.30596875,"end":158.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.84159375000002,"end":160.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.29284375,"end":161.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.84534375,"end":163.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.73534375,"end":165.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.00534375,"end":164.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.64221875,"end":167.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.26221875000002,"end":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我們現在任職部次長好 請馬次長委員早安早 早早早早次長 從現在到現在大家看到國安法的時候在我們站在台灣"},{"start":27.919,"end":37.282,"text":"國民黨的 覺得很緊張我認為 今天禮拜這個 因為我覺得長久以來我覺得很多台灣人 念台灣體育金長久以來都違背台灣做事在這個發展中 我們有覺得不足的地方"},{"start":53.188,"end":59.99,"text":"尤其最近,你應該有看到我們的國票這樣,大家都怕外國在那裡受怕,在那裡戰爭,在那裡做愛心台灣郵輪、國票一直去所以,我們台灣有富國神山,不是只有一個而已我們的老總統國,我們的富國神山有很多"},{"start":82.09,"end":83.952,"text":"有很多的當中 我們也願意他可以在台灣平平安安去做他的專業 他的東西我們的政府可以保護他這才是最重要的在這個過程當中 他剛才也有說到"},{"start":105.885,"end":111.266,"text":"之前幾年前在北京的時候發生那樣的事情如果沒有我們的承辦人員的信號我相信今天大家也很高興不知道當時還要發生什麼事情不知道在北京的車頭還要回到這個問題所以在這個過程當中我覺得自己想法的就要想法"},{"start":134.651,"end":137.434,"text":"我們不用怕 我們是保護全台灣中華民國百姓的血緣沒有說一句 我不聽在以前 他們可以沒中奬到現在沒中奬 還認為他沒有不對現在在這個過程中 還可以我看到現在"},{"start":157.409,"end":158.41,"text":"是要讓我們台灣中華民國的言論更好更好有一個範圍裡面不然你有時候都想說哎呦 跟這個不知道會出發還是不會出發"},{"start":173.59,"end":175.932,"text":"在這個過程當中 我覺得百姓有的是無敵的有的參與的 有的是用做這個做這個裡面 有財 參與的沒財但是現在有的百姓 說說對人去背叛啦人家說台灣要怎麼樣 他也跟人家說怎麼樣啦所以在這個過程當中 我們的網路"},{"start":202.388,"end":206.892,"text":"也是真的 金屬油 但是對台灣的非法也很多所以在這個過程當中 有如何今天我們有很多的草案的時候 你要補充什麼來好 謝謝委員支持啦 我想主要的原因在於說我們現在面對的是一個要併吞台灣的政權"},{"start":227.113,"end":254.088,"text":"那這樣的一個態勢尤其是在過去這幾年是非常的明顯所以國安法今天的修正其實是面對中國跟解放軍對台灣這種全領域的這種併吞行為我們要做一些回應所以剛剛委員一開始提到經濟事實上包括我們在資訊戰包括我們在這個國防甚至包括我們在社會的輿論上面有很多的假訊息都是因為這樣子而產生的"},{"start":255.993,"end":258.279,"text":"因為今天我特別來講這個網路這個問題因為網路有時要公開"},{"start":263.991,"end":266.172,"text":"也做到 欸 那做到有影響 說不太一樣所以這個問題是非常嚴重的有時候說 阿 阿強要跑來 阿強要跑來如果一個人說不覺得什麼 如果10月年尾議說的時候這會怕人 所以在網路這個區塊我們非常重要 不是說言論的自由"},{"start":290.103,"end":292.305,"text":"是百分之百 但是有時候危害中華民國台灣的信我們也要去勸責所以今天想這個國安法的信我們也能對中華民國更好 讓北省有那麼多的保障這才是應該的 不是這樣"},{"start":312.181,"end":335.568,"text":"對 我想委員的觀點非常的同意因為其實我們現在修國安法是要保障大多數人的民主自由的制度所以包括說我們現在可以看得到在網路上包括剛剛委員提到的虛假言論或者是未冒名人或者是未冒我們的政治人物的言論我們在國安法裡面這次的修訂都會去衡量它的情節"},{"start":336.528,"end":365.296,"text":"它的情節重大的時候我們會做處理也就是說在言論自由的部分我們還是會去保持一個橫平性這個部分剛剛也有跟委員報告過就是說像我們目前在兒少性剝削防治條例裡面的八之一條的第六項裡面其實也有類似的規定重大情節我們必須要去做馬上的處理所以這個也是要保障不管是兒少或者是保障我們國民的民主自由的制度這個都是一貫的一個概念"},{"start":366.089,"end":376.336,"text":"好 來 我們請法務部來 市長在這裏面我們要跟你討論的就是說這第13條的草案裏面有正經替我們中華民國 台灣付出很多的這個公家機關的"},{"start":389.71,"end":392.652,"text":"做兵也好 上班也好在這個過程 但是他現在已經拿退休金了但是在退休金的當中 讓人利用一定會中華民國的福祉在這個過程 剛才你也有說 一心的心 能夠"},{"start":412.455,"end":417.12,"text":"50%嘛 原來本市要這麼關心的就是因為它替國家付出保護國家 我們應該要照顧這是沒有錯的 但是有時候它已經離開了 它的配合只有一半"},{"start":433.37,"end":436.832,"text":"但是他的配合在那一半會破風的時候是比台灣人還要惡劣在那一幕中華民國台灣的不是不夠自由不夠民主這你想今天的草案可以補充這個奇怪的什麼來 你回答一下"},{"start":456.581,"end":476.873,"text":"根據我們的草案那第13條的第5項就是針對這一個遺囑的部分那遺囑的部分如果也有跟第一項所列的各款的一個違法的適由那一樣我們第一項到第4項的一些剝奪權利的部分呢對於遺囑呢一樣是適用的因為今天為什麼要來談論這個因為不要"},{"start":480.759,"end":483.28,"text":"請求給台灣的退休金跟保護 請求給台灣的補習這是非常不應該 所以本市立委這個法條草案 一定要趕快抓到來完成不說實在 不知道我們台灣人兩千三百萬人 交的稅金 交的錢給這樣保留台灣 是非常不應該 以上"},{"start":511.154,"end":512.182,"text":"谢谢谢谢委员"}]}},{"id":"166920","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166920","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f4f65aafd963aff76781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e98401a8fd86e0fba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:36:46 - 10:44:10","影片長度":"00:07:24","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T10:36:46+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T10:44:10+08:00","duration":444,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.7353437500000002,"end":3.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.1822187500000005,"end":5.5153437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":7.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.235968750000001,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.910343750000003,"end":29.157218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.47784375,"end":31.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.61659375,"end":38.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.40471875,"end":38.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.13034375,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.244093750000005,"end":43.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.58534375,"end":47.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.46659375,"end":56.882843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.01409375,"end":54.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.642218750000005,"end":64.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.91534375,"end":65.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.58596875,"end":74.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.23971875000001,"end":68.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.12471875,"end":84.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.35534375,"end":85.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.51971875000001,"end":92.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.77159375000001,"end":99.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.66971875,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.81284375000001,"end":100.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.39909375,"end":104.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.34784375000001,"end":110.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.74784375,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.71346875,"end":117.95346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.47659375,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.36659375,"end":121.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.48034375,"end":125.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.58159375000001,"end":121.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.77971875,"end":122.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.34034375,"end":137.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.60909375,"end":136.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.14034375,"end":138.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.55784375000002,"end":143.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.53596875,"end":144.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.14346875,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.59471875,"end":146.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.28659375,"end":146.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.97846875000002,"end":148.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.73346875000001,"end":149.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.29034375,"end":151.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.97346875000002,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.69034375,"end":157.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.60971875,"end":159.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.39409375,"end":162.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.99284375000002,"end":169.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.97909375,"end":225.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.58346875,"end":192.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.05909375000002,"end":225.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.09284375000001,"end":225.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.14346875,"end":230.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.16034375,"end":225.73409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.50096875000003,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.97346875000002,"end":233.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.07471875000002,"end":233.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.20971875,"end":235.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.36534375000002,"end":236.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.95596875,"end":238.39034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.11596875,"end":249.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.68409375000002,"end":253.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.59471875000003,"end":256.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.93596875000003,"end":279.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.83534375,"end":283.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start"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這不就是我們過去兩年來一直的主張嗎好 那我們現在來開公聽會 準備來開公聽會但是我還是希望藉由今天的詢答可以讓社會大眾知道我們在處理什麼國安法案副主委我請問你 你有沒有收到消息"},{"start":57.748,"end":65.695,"text":"中華民國內政部長劉世芳跟教育部長曾英耀剛剛被國台辦宣布為台獨頑固分子是 我們知道"},{"start":66.693,"end":91.829,"text":"這是最新的消息我們目前台灣的有哪一些方式我們目前這一個今天的幾個修法裡面有哪幾個法案我們希望可以針對協力者或者是可能會針對台灣的國家安全造成影響的這幾條我們有什麼方式可以來處理 第一個"},{"start":93.84,"end":110.204,"text":"在上個會期的時候我曾經質詢那就是有一個不明的APP那他的名義是投誠歸家他每天都會上傳今天台北市有幾個人投誠了"},{"start":110.865,"end":125.004,"text":"今天新北市有幾個人又登記投誠了投誠到中華人民共和國了這個APP你知道嗎這個我知道那我們現在如果沒有修法的情況下這個APP我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":127.626,"end":153.787,"text":"目前我們所知道這個APP還沒有正式的上市它應該還是屬於測試的階段它會層次不窮但是如果它一旦出現以我們目前的法律來說是沒有辦法拿它毫無辦法所以我們要修這個國安法當你不會看到一個APP出現的時候說剩你們這是少數啦"},{"start":154.748,"end":168.707,"text":"他這種恐嚇式然後引導式讓台灣人心生恐懼嘛但是目前是沒有辦法所以我們目前陸委會還有法務部內政部我們討論出來的這一個內容我們希望他怎麼樣處理"},{"start":170.054,"end":187.247,"text":"所以照目前來講我們現在對於網路上的我們只有兒少法或者是屬於那種詐騙案我們就把它認定成詐騙嘛對 但是這樣的認定方法實在是只是一個"},{"start":188.508,"end":216.251,"text":"只是一個權宜的做法所以實際上我們應該要我們應該要面對問題的核心就是說面對這樣的APP或這樣的網站這樣明確為中共宣傳或明確為這個要消滅中華民國宣傳的這些網站或APP那我們是主張是要在國安法裡面來做一個特別的條文那也就是說我們現在所提出來的第四條之一"},{"start":216.972,"end":230.73,"text":"那第四條之一它並不是一個刑事上面的法律它是一個行政處罰也就是說我們並不想要它行政處罰的意思就是它沒有牽涉到言論自由你還是可以發表嘛"},{"start":233.641,"end":251.938,"text":"我的意思是說我們第四條之一就是用緊急等於算是把它當作一個緊急事態然後立刻把它要求相關的單位或是相關的網路平台要把它移除掉很合理啊 當人民遇到詐騙或當國家遇到這個"},{"start":253.9,"end":279.147,"text":"國家安全的問題當然要及時的把它處理掉是 所以我們第四條之一的寫法跟兒少或者是這個反詐騙法的寫法是類似的我們做法是類似的也就是說它基本上還沒有牽涉到說後面的追訴我們就是用這個處理緊急事件的方式先讓它下架 先讓它移除"},{"start":279.907,"end":303.298,"text":"那這樣的話才能夠避免傷害進一步發生這樣子對 就是大門大路 就是 人民遇到詐騙我們希望趕快把這個不實廣告訊息下架國家遇到安全問題的時候我們也希望趕快把這些疑似有安全疑慮的問題可以下架 是的 是的好 謝謝 謝謝副主委來 我請法務部次長 副主委請回座"},{"start":308.137,"end":330.79,"text":"委員好一直被民眾反映 而且是非常激烈的反映那就是說針對今天的第13條的這一個修法那過去很多民眾也反映就是說為什麼這些 比如說退役的將領他可能去到中國然後參加了某一些活動之後那他還可以領月退奉等等的"},{"start":331.75,"end":355.063,"text":"那我舉兩個案例跟次長討教一下退役軍官前富康聯盟黨主席徐宏毅收受中國資金發展同袍組織拍攝美國在台協會阿里山雷達屏東三軍聯合基地等等目前他有沒有繼續在領月退"},{"start":359.108,"end":381.343,"text":"這個可能要問人事單位好我跟你說那我再講清楚一點他現在判依國安法判處10年有期徒刑全案可上訴那請問他現在依照還未修法的這個他有沒有辦法領月退還是可以領還是可以領對這個就是大家在罵的地方是那這一次修法裡面我們改變了什麼"},{"start":382.323,"end":403.392,"text":"行政院提出什麼樣對 這次的修法只要違反所列的這六款的情形包括像剛才講的國安法那我們在第一審宣告判有歧途性以上的話就停止它50%對嘛 停止50%它以後如果清白就還是決定款那以後如果是清白那我們就會再補發"},{"start":404.813,"end":432.659,"text":"那如果說最後是有罪判決確定的話全部都要交 已經就不再讓他領然後已經領了 從犯罪時間開始以後全部要追回所以第13條其實我們就是針對這一些在一審判決到真正判決他會有一個很冗長的時間嘛那也讓國人的印象就是這些人明明我們就知道他做了這個事情他就在那裡然後但是他還沒有判決確定所以他繼續在領中華民國的這些月退奉嘛"},{"start":433.706,"end":442.49,"text":"所以我們希望可以明確 也說明清楚把我們在國安法裡面 我們在修正的方向可以跟國人說明清楚 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166919","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166919","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f3c0073b3cf818d97781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e9e2b1819fafab4f6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:28:20 - 10:36:27","影片長度":"00:08:07","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T10:28:20+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T10:36:27+08:00","duration":487,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.9590937500000001,"end":6.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.72659375,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.287218750000001,"end":8.485343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.809718750000002,"end":12.434093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.535343750000003,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.73784375,"end":12.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.94034375,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.480343750000003,"end":14.594093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.273468750000003,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.505343750000002,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.84159375,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.00596875,"end":26.035343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.23346875,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.684718750000002,"end":35.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.95784375,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.97471875,"end":40.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.83471875,"end":41.492843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.86409375,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.02659375,"end":60.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.51096875,"end":60.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.54471875,"end":60.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.56159375,"end":60.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.595343750000005,"end":60.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.74721875,"end":63.83534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.03784375000001,"end":75.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.23596875,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.97846875,"end":67.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.50971875,"end":69.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.45784375000001,"end":81.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.92159375,"end":79.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.98846875000001,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.19784375,"end":104.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.28471875000001,"end":107.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.64284375000001,"end":109.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.25846875,"end":112.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.43096875,"end":116.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.32909375000001,"end":118.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.97846875,"end":121.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.94846875,"end":123.25221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.70784375000001,"end":126.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.74159375,"end":124.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.36971875,"end":129.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.00221875,"end":132.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.82909375,"end":131.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.83721875,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.68034375000002,"end":140.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.61221875,"end":141.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.20284375,"end":159.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.07346875000002,"end":165.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.19909375,"end":166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.53221875,"end":170.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.51471875000001,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.80034375000002,"end":179.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.88034375,"end":189.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.95909375000002,"end":194.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.44784375,"end":198.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.27846875,"end":199.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.77596875,"end":203.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.57284375,"end":209.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.31909375,"end":209.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.21346875,"end":209.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.33159375000002,"end":209.34846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.34846875000002,"end":210.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.32721875000001,"end":211.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.1372187500000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早其實國家安全國家安全大家嘴巴都在講言論自由大家嘴巴也都在講但這個徐次長"},{"start":27.324,"end":34.608,"text":"言論自由 那我如果公眾羞辱人罵人有沒有在言論自由的保障範圍內"},{"start":36.164,"end":56.951,"text":"跟委員報告言論自由絕對是憲法保障的權利之一但是這個也是會有限制也就是說他不能去侵害到別人他不能危害到社會秩序也不能危害到國家安全如果有這些行為的話憲法也會規定有一定的限制我們先不要講到國家安全"},{"start":57.811,"end":78.16,"text":"我在公共場所有沒有公然侮辱 有嘛那有沒有受言論自由的保障就是限制了 當然限制嘛我們是追求言論自由我們一定要百分之百的支持言論自由但是我們在現行的法律我們在支持言論自由下也沒有無限擴張嘛 對不對所以勒"},{"start":83.132,"end":97.717,"text":"身為一個國家的主人 所有的人民應該也要追求國家安全吧對不對 如果國家沒有安全你有再多的什麼都沒有用那我們今天很多人在講限制言論自由或限制什麼"},{"start":98.197,"end":121.196,"text":"我覺得這都是可以探討的一個法律要通過很多都可以探討但我認為大家都忽略了很多的事情為什麼特別請經濟部上我們這次的修法裡面這裡面國家核心關鍵技術這個跟政治有沒有關係你們都可以回答"},{"start":125.146,"end":139.298,"text":"國家核心關鍵技術都有關係這跟經濟跟政治都有關係都有嘛對不對所以我們這次的修法裡面經濟部我想請問一下國家核心關鍵技術"},{"start":142.256,"end":164.612,"text":"如果我們比如說我們的半導體業我們不要指名哪一間啊不然好啦 沒關係就講嘛台積電或什麼特別的關鍵技術嘛會不會有敵對勢力或是中國或是其他國家要來竊取我們這個商業機密 國家機密 會不會包圍我想國家核心關鍵技術目前來講確實有些是涉及到營業秘密的問題"},{"start":167.571,"end":193.911,"text":"我剛剛就講 我剛剛的問題是會不會有其他的敵對勢力或其他國家要來想辦法竊取我們這些商業秘密這些國家關鍵核心關鍵技術 會不會有我想委員 報告委員這部分或許別的國家還是敵對勢力因為記憶就是有關於不管是台積電或我們很重要的關鍵技術的時候它假設要突破這個技術它可能會造過偷竊或許"},{"start":194.811,"end":214.699,"text":"對這些該當的不管是敵對勢力或外國任何一個團體都有可能發生的事情都有可能發生嘛 是有沒有發生過我想目前來講在報紙上有些確實有發生過好 就有發生過就好了嘛對不對 是有發生過我們不用去制止嗎"},{"start":216.454,"end":240.185,"text":"所以鮑威我想在這部分我們在營業秘密上面假如萬一發生竊取營業秘密這部分會回歸到我們營業秘密這部分也有相關的事情什麼叫回歸到營業秘密這次的法條你都沒有看到喔修正裡面國家核心關鍵區我們也是要保障這一部分啊對啊 你剛剛想什麼回到"},{"start":241.325,"end":264.629,"text":"就是說營業秘密也有 那這次國安法裡面也有確實相關涉及到偷竊國家核心關鍵技術對啊 是嘛 對不對 你就回答我是或不是就好了嘛是嘛 對嘛 所以這個也不只是對於我們剛剛講的言論自由的限制或什麼的其實對於整個台灣未來國家的發展"},{"start":265.256,"end":290.701,"text":"我們如果這些國家核心關鍵技術被人家拿走了被人家用過不正當的手段敵對勢力或什麼的對台灣的國際競爭力對台灣的保護對台灣人民的生命財產尤其是財產可能少賺很多錢我們今天所有的修法其實不只這些嘛對不對好 那個馬次長馬次長"},{"start":293.414,"end":319.79,"text":"我剛剛所說的台積電這個或是半導體業這個國家核心關鍵技術這是一項但你們應該也介紹很多敵對勢力或外國或敵對勢力他對我們的基礎建設或有發動了很多的攻擊這是不是事實報告委員是事實比如說海蘭我們就常常被切斷"},{"start":320.558,"end":343.889,"text":"就事實嘛 對不對 那事實我們要不要防範我們要 而且關鍵基礎設施裡面有非常多並不一定屬於所謂的政府營運的部分所以我剛剛沒有講關鍵兩字喔我剛剛特別只有講基礎設施而已喔我還沒講到關鍵喔 對不對連這個基礎設施都有 那我再請問一下"},{"start":345.219,"end":368.585,"text":"如果有人要透過不正當的手段拿到我們台灣所有人的就醫資料或是說馬市長你家住哪裡 你每天去吃什麼這個對國家安全會不會也有危害這個絕對是 因為我們可以看得到就是說各個國家對於各種不同的包括各自的保護或者是基礎設施的資訊的保護它都是一致的"},{"start":369.603,"end":385.223,"text":"我今天為什麼要提出不同的面向我跟你講如果從全台灣人的就醫制度裡面來看我們全台灣每年消耗最多的藥品是哪一個如果對台灣有不友善的敵對勢力或什麼我想辦法切斷你所有的用藥台灣人怎麼辦"},{"start":388.191,"end":409.886,"text":"有沒有這個可能有可能有可能而且不只是藥品我們還有一些其他的比如說能源或者是其他都是一樣的我們就講藥品就好了嘛對不對可能大家會覺得啊這個修國安法什麼跟他沒有相干但我就只舉這個我們的就醫資料健保資料有心人透過這樣拿到了主動我們拿到所有的藥品"},{"start":410.908,"end":436.41,"text":"這台灣人怎麼辦啊 再來每個人的住所 每個人什麼也有可能啊 對不對所以我在這邊就是說今天我們修這個國安法其實我個人認為沒有那麼多政治就是要保護台灣人保護我們的經濟 保護台灣人能夠繼續永遠走下去我剛舉的這些 那你再講一個"},{"start":437.871,"end":451.119,"text":"對不對 如果你有 你拿到你所有的手機裡面的資料你每天打給誰 你每天幹什麼 哇全台灣現在啊 打電話打到哪個國家最多的哇 可能跟那個國家啊 經貿往來密切 哇"},{"start":454.915,"end":483.201,"text":"阻斷台灣的經貿發展 這都是有可能的餒 對不對而且已經在發生了 根緣報已經在發生對嘛 所以舉這幾個例子要讓全台灣人民知道我們今天修這個國安法其實是為了保護台灣人民啦 對不對沒錯 這個謝謝委員因為這個都是在現在進行式所以我們修這個法基本上已經不是未來式了我們是在處理彌補過去我們安全上的漏洞好 謝謝委員"},{"start":484.943,"end":484.963,"text":"謝謝 感謝"}]}},{"id":"166918","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166918","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f4c96576720987867781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e9dab12b64c84673915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:19:34 - 10:28:01","影片長度":"00:08:27","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T10:19:34+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T10:28:01+08:00","duration":507,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.65096875,"end":2.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.00096875,"end":6.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.48971875,"end":9.379718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.902218750000003,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.52659375,"end":44.867843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.03659375,"end":49.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.79534375,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.08159375,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.815343750000004,"end":61.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.48971875,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.31596875000001,"end":70.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.24784375,"end":78.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.48284375,"end":87.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.91596875,"end":93.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.21034375,"end":97.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.78784375000001,"end":101.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.12471875,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.29159375,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.32534375,"end":115.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.18596875,"end":116.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.21971875000001,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.72159375000001,"end":116.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.87346875,"end":124.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.77096875000001,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.59284375000001,"end":136.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.06471875,"end":137.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.95471875,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.68784375,"end":145.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.45971875,"end":156.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.80971875,"end":148.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.02034375000002,"end":149.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.20909375000002,"end":163.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.33034375,"end":167.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.43096875,"end":170.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.46471875,"end":167.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.04221875000002,"end":178.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.51784375,"end":179.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.36159375,"end":179.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.95221875000001,"end":180.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.96909375,"end":180.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.54284375,"end":181.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.08284375000002,"end":204.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.50534375,"end":204.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.53909375,"end":218.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.83221875,"end":225.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.17284375000003,"end":229.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.42971875,"end":234.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.74534375000002,"end":234.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.18409375000002,"end":256.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.66596875,"end":264.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.34409375,"end":278.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.70471875000004,"end":283.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.32846875,"end":286.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.63596875,"end":301.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.82346875,"end":305.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.95784375,"end":306.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.37534375,"end":344.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.38221875000005,"end":356.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.95409375,"end":358.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.87784375,"end":382.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.77284375000005,"end":384.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.61221875,"end":388.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.49346875000003,"end":396.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.62346875000003,"end":393.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.64409375,"end":404.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.73596875000004,"end":406.14471875000004},{"spe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何謂委員我想在第四條裡面的條文非常清楚就是說他是要鼓吹戰爭來消滅我國主權"},{"start":124.847,"end":144.765,"text":"所以鼓吹戰爭是一個非常明確的概念那剛剛委員所提的幾個例子都不在這個範圍裡面那你可不可以舉例就是只要大概是什麼樣的講法就是你可不可以示例一下委員剛舉的三個例子比如說主張台灣獨立或者是主張這個和平協議或者是主張跟"},{"start":145.605,"end":168.787,"text":"各個國家他想要跟 兩岸和平交流不是和平協議和平交流也是一樣 這都是屬於言論自由的範圍我們並不在國安法第四條修法的這個範圍裡面所以您是不是可以明確講如果就您現在來講 因為這法案還沒過嘛就您來講 什麼樣的情況會是您說的鼓吹戰爭要由相關部會來查譬如說過去有好幾個網紅在"},{"start":171.63,"end":184.623,"text":"這個網路上鼓吹解放軍攻擊台灣或者是歡迎解放軍攻擊台灣這一類的言論我們基本上就是鼓吹戰爭就是好很明確很明確很明確齁好那第二個我來請教一下齁就是說"},{"start":185.53,"end":203.827,"text":"現在就是第四條的部分就是就像你之前講如果有一些這個網紅如果講說武統台灣這個當然本席也非常不支持如果這種言論就一定支持就會 就像你講的會罰最高是一百萬元那現在的處罰是如何如果這個草案還沒通過的話現在有相關的處罰嗎"},{"start":204.768,"end":218.076,"text":"跟委員報 我們事實上有另外一條是刑法151條那刑法151條有提到說以加害生命、身體財產之事恐嚇公眾、致危害於公安者他會處兩年以下有期徒刑所以這是屬於刑法的範圍"},{"start":218.939,"end":233.965,"text":"那剛剛委員所提到包括這個國安法第四條他是介於我們的刑法151條跟言論自由中間的這個灰色地帶所以剛剛委員所提到就是說如果以目前來講進行這個言論如果他有明確的主張要攻擊的對象的話他會落到刑法151條"},{"start":235.265,"end":256.11,"text":"那如果沒有一個具體的攻擊對象他只是說鼓吹戰爭的話我們目前是沒有法律可以處理那這個對國人來講他造成很大的心理威脅所以剛剛在報告的時候也提到因為我們現在面對非常嚴峻的國安威脅所以這一類的言論我們必須按照國際公約相關的規定有所管制這個是提出這個法案修正的一個目的"},{"start":256.701,"end":277.576,"text":"好 謝謝鄭次因為您剛剛的回應我相信未來這個我們都可以來審視也希望行政單位在審查人民的言論的時候要特別的注意就是就像你講的範圍是明確的不是說不明確那第二個我要請教就是今天很多委員也特別在程序發言提到第四之一條就是在網路"},{"start":278.757,"end":301.3,"text":"的部分會不會讓人民在網路上的一些言論要求一些我們現在大家所知道的一些Facebook這些社群媒體要來把它給下架所以剛剛也有我們其他委員說這不就是數位重借法的借屍還魂嗎那41條裡面有特別的提到我來跟你簡單敘述一下"},{"start":301.88,"end":329.111,"text":"他說內政部可以會經法務部速發部陸委會得令網際網路平台提供者在網際網路平台內容就是裡面就是可以來去限制一些終止一些服務的措施那裡面你們在立法說明裡面有提到如果偽冒我國政治人物談話相關不實或不當言論可能造成無法回復的損害就要管制的必要"},{"start":329.451,"end":344.048,"text":"那我想要請問裡面的內容什麼叫做可能造成無法管制的損害以及什麼叫做相關不實或不當言論這個由誰來決定而且內政部你們怎麼去做這件事你們有這樣的量能去做這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":345.208,"end":363.638,"text":"這個部分還是要跟我們包括法務部跟入委會我們要來延伸整個這個標準但是跟委員報告過去這一類的言論並不是說完全沒有我們行政管制的措施比如說兒少性影像的問題或是說詐騙的問題我們直接就是用行政手段請他來停止不然的話他對"},{"start":364.758,"end":381.952,"text":"後續的危害會造成更大的一個風險就像我們這次北捷的事件一樣我們如果沒有在這後面的兩個星期將網路上所有威脅公眾的這個言論下架的話那就會造成我們民眾到跨年都還在恐慌這個事情所以我想這個標準是一致的非常一致的"},{"start":383.093,"end":405.916,"text":"不好意思 趁勢你要沒有回答我的問題現在講的是有關於這個就是說什麼叫做偉貌我國政治人物的談話相關不實跟不當言論這個是什麼樣的舉例你可以舉例是什麼樣的內容比如說如果有帳號偽造委員的這個談話然後用AI生成或者是用其他的方式或是扭曲發言如果有這樣的做法未來會如何處罰"},{"start":406.937,"end":435.857,"text":"我們目前的話 按照第四條之一我們會用會審的方式來處理那如何處罰處罰就按照第四條的規定就是法 也是最高法以來對 它也是行政法 它就是行政處分所以本席想要請教政次的原因就是說其實這樣子的處罰的內容跟這樣子的認定內容其實現在各部會其實沒有一個如何去判斷所以第一個我們要提的是說到底是哪一個主管機關來確認說這些是錯誤或不實的訊息其實剛剛政次裡面有特別"},{"start":436.537,"end":445.024,"text":"的這個回應那如果就這樣子因為很多人會轉傳信息嘛LINE上看到訊息就轉傳那如果這樣子的話民眾就會被處罰"},{"start":446.57,"end":465.242,"text":"的話我會認為就是行政權會來決定人民可以看什麼不能看什麼這個標準沒有很確定會讓人覺得是有行政的擴權的一個問題那比如說比如說現在我們有想說如果民眾去轉發的內容如果這樣子的話就會被罰我覺得"},{"start":467.046,"end":483.494,"text":"還是要請馬政司喔 這個我們基本上行政手段還是會有一個橫平性不會說轉發或是什麼我們就完全去做處分這個要看個案的狀況所以剛剛我們主席也宣布我們會召開公聽會我想在公聽會的過程裡面應該會有不同的意見我們會再來收整"},{"start":484.09,"end":504.341,"text":"好那最後還是要拜託馬政司就是在公聽會的時候我們是支持這個國家安全可是不能讓國家安全變成國安之民行擴權之時那就是說還是要在公聽會的時候也是要請你們再把我們提出來的問題再仔細來說明好謝謝委員我們不會擴權我們是基本上就是依照證據來處理這個問題好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166917","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166917","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468ff9a51fc7409a0798781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e966fd7484734a17d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"10:11:10 - 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Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T10:11:10+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T10:19:17+08:00","duration":487,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.228468750000001,"end":6.679718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.695968750000002,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.30346875,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.234718750000006,"end":75.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.23846875000001,"end":79.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.71471875,"end":83.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.47409375000001,"end":80.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.61284375000001,"end":87.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.89909375,"end":96.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.91034375000001,"end":112.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.05971875,"end":113.38034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.40971875000001,"end":119.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.32909375000001,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.18096875,"end":127.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.42034375000001,"end":128.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.17534375,"end":133.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.57971875,"end":134.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.81159375000001,"end":137.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.00096875,"end":141.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.08471875,"end":146.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.93659375000001,"end":152.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.99471875,"end":152.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.54721875,"end":194.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.27159375000002,"end":161.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.26284375,"end":163.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.05096875,"end":200.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.29909375000003,"end":202.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.61534375000002,"end":202.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.69971875000002,"end":253.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.71659375000002,"end":205.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.42971875,"end":230.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.11721875,"end":231.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.03346875000003,"end":260.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.12096875000003,"end":293.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.37659375000004,"end":273.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.48534375,"end":280.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.48784375,"end":290.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.26784375,"end":297.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.92159375,"end":300.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.78596875,"end":299.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.33846875,"end":310.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.94909375000003,"end":331.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.72471875,"end":313.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.86971875,"end":330.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.55721875,"end":336.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.99096875000004,"end":351.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.49096875000004,"end":353.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.93784375,"end":387.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.00846875,"end":388.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.39221875000004,"end":394.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.42596875000004,"end":388.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.45971875000004,"end":388.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.32409375000003,"end":392.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.31534375,"end":399.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.90096875,"end":432.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.36971875,"end":425.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.65159375,"end":429.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.45284375000006,"end":433.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.70159375000003,"end":442.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.74284375,"end":439.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.66221875,"end":443.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.03346875000005,"end":444.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.97846875000005,"end":447.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.53096875000006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謝謝主席我想請法務部政務次長徐次長加政務次長委員長"},{"start":11.328,"end":37.669,"text":"市長好 市長這是我們這一屆立法委員到今天這個差不多有兩年的時間今天這個在以國民黨委員為主的程序發言當中我第一次在兩年來深刻的感覺到原來憲法是重要的原來權力分立是重要的每一項行政權力 立法權力不應該超出自己的本分去越前侵犯到它"},{"start":39.271,"end":45.297,"text":"總項目這個今天我們都再一次終於聽到出現在國民黨委員的口中甚至我們也聽到了說這個法律條文的文字要明確不要模糊免得有構陷人民之虞哇這些論點我們真的是這不就是我們講了兩年的事情嗎"},{"start":61.093,"end":84.483,"text":"我覺得2026年新年新希望如果大家都能夠往這個方向共同前進尊重憲法 遵守權利分立的原則在自己的本位上面好好做事未嘗不是一個新的開始畢竟我們還有兩年的時間好 這個感觸我相信法務部一定比我更深啦你不好回答也沒有關係啦我替你回答啦你不好評論委員好 那我讓你評論你可以評論的"},{"start":87.984,"end":112.426,"text":"次長 這個國家安全社會安定是重要的嘛是國安法就是第一條開宗明義就是為了保障國家安全為了維護社會安定特制定本法那我想請問次長我們國安法才幾年前剛修從上次修法之後法的適用狀況如何有多少類型的攻擊這部法適用的狀況如何"},{"start":114.468,"end":135.789,"text":"有沒有需要再調整的地方不然我們今天也不會在這裡我給你一點簡短的時間回答一下因為這一個條文是目前我們案件在試用上是遭遇到一些問題也就比較我們今天提出來的草案裡面就很明顯的就看得出來就是第一個我們在實務上發現單純的參與"},{"start":138.038,"end":162.077,"text":"它事實上對我們國家安全還是會造成一定的危害可是沒有找不到在這個國家安全法裡面我們找不到任何一個司法的規定參與的這種部分是法沒有規定到的等於是當時漏了這樣子的一部分有漏洞的部分那也有一些犯罪類型可能是法律條文這樣寫可是發現對應到行為模式的時候沒有辦法對應起來所以也沒有辦法處置今天的狀況大概是這樣所以我們今天的修正是一個補漏洞"},{"start":167.941,"end":193.293,"text":"朝著要維護國家安全 維護社會安定的方向在補漏洞好 所以針對過去的一些狀況我們來做調整好 次長我們都是法律人我們都是學法的我甚至我也當過律師嘛在當立法委員之前我們來請教你一個問題我們這個法條用語是模糊的時候可以管轄的範圍比較大還是是用字精確的時候管轄的範圍比較大"},{"start":196.092,"end":204.921,"text":"如果規定很模糊 那執法這困擾但是它真的會變得 反而可以管得比較大嘛 對不對所以有時候我們有意義 我們有意義的有意識的要讓它可以稍微管寬一點 模糊一點然後甚至是在講完了概念之後下面用例式 而不是列舉這樣的狀態嘛"},{"start":215.871,"end":223.174,"text":"那所以我們很清楚的知道如果我們是法律要來限制人民的權利的時候那條文的文字是越精準越明確理論上人民的權利受到越多的保障沒錯嘛對不對剛剛國民黨的委員也是這樣要求啊希望這一步對人民權利"},{"start":235.259,"end":246.087,"text":"有所限制的法律要文字能夠清楚好那我們把現行條文和修正條文拿出來做對照現行條文和修正條文就是今天要討論的草案版本拿出來做對照市長你跟我們說明一下我們開宗明義今天要討論的第一項今天國安法修正到底要討論什麼的這件事情第二條我們到底是擴大範圍還是縮小範圍所以跟委員報告"},{"start":262.694,"end":281.325,"text":"原來的條文在第七條規定是意圖也就是行為的他自己心裡想的我只要意圖危害國家安全或社會安定我做的這些行為 第七條那這樣的意圖常在心裡有看不到的就有你只要想一想可能都犯罪囉想在心裡頭那我們來偵辦"},{"start":283.546,"end":287.608,"text":"這個是爭半趟的困難而且也對於行為行為人來講也會比較危險那今天我們修法是把它修成好適性犯是應該要他這一個具體的行為之後國家才可以去"},{"start":298.832,"end":310.342,"text":"找去定你的罪嘛對 要他的具體行為在客觀上已經可以觀察到他足以生危害於國家安全跟社會安定好 所以這是第七條反正是把意圖拿掉縮小這個範圍嘛那我們到第二條來看的話第二條本來我們的這個文字裡面是發起資助主持操縱指揮或發展組織"},{"start":322.532,"end":343.631,"text":"就已經是屬於犯罪行為了那我們現在加了什麼樣的文字我們不是就加了後面我這個粗體字後面的這句話嗎來次長你說明一下好了我們又加了一個就是足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定所以是把我們的犯罪行為要明確到你有這些發起資助主持操縱指揮發展組織甚至是要到足以"},{"start":347.694,"end":351.357,"text":"危害國家安全的時候 才會變成犯罪行為我們把它客觀化了是啊 那我就不懂啦 那剛剛我們在程序發言一個多小時 國民黨委員到底是在說我們把範圍擴大 擴大到什麼樣的程度呢好 再來 他們說這個"},{"start":364.346,"end":381.815,"text":"還有其他條其他條什麼鼓吹啊鼓吹是什麼意思那第4條的部分來講的話任何人第4條我們也再講第4條好了第4條原來的條文文字也就現行法條文文字只有一項國家安全之維護應急於中華民國領域內網際空間及其實體空間沒錯吧這是現行條文對不對"},{"start":388.539,"end":393.18,"text":"沒關係 你用做法律人來跟我對話啦我不要再換時間不要再上下台的時間了好 我們現在增加的這個部分的話是增加了多少我們增加兩項欸增加了這麼多欸不是任何在網路上面的行為我就把你定為犯罪行為我是認為你在網路上裡面只有在發動戰爭而且是對我國發動戰爭或採取非和平手段消滅我國主權"},{"start":417.668,"end":419.83,"text":"有這樣的行為才會變成是觸犯國安法不是嗎所以這是縮小範圍啊明確定義未來的犯罪行為到底是什麼不是這樣嗎所以這今天整個的修正"},{"start":433.8,"end":436.361,"text":"其實是在把犯罪行為更明確讓國人更有安全讓國家更有安全不是就是這樣嗎這要說出來啦這個絕對不是在限制人民自由被變成講得好像我們在前置言論自由我覺得這是完全不是事實這就是錯假訊息啊"},{"start":454.149,"end":479.895,"text":"這就是錯假訊息呀所以我希望等一下齁因為我一個人的時間有限所以透過各位委員的詢答我希望行政部行政部門的各部會能夠具體的說明我們是如何在維護國家安全和保障人民權益之間取得一個最適的方案這才是今天國家安全法修正草案提出來的意義 沒錯吧 是希望你們等一下能夠具體表述 謝謝"},{"start":483.376,"end":483.396,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"166916","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166916","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f119b3c65799ce25891c86f7578002990a2318d3e8cde50e966fd7484734a17d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"12:00:06 - 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謝謝主席 我們邀請部長有請石部長好 三位很早"},{"start":17.216,"end":37.765,"text":"好部長我想在之前在院會也好其實我已經問了很多大家今天都非常關心的就是這些跨部會的溝通要如何的來去協助因為像兒少保護牽扯單位實在是非常的多所以我想這個部分我今天就不細問因為大家都已經問了非常多了那但是我今天的簡報初步來現在是可以暫停時間一下嗎現在是怎麼我訊號"},{"start":47.984,"end":48.325,"text":"時間先暫停一下"},{"start":56.004,"end":82.107,"text":"修復一下好 沒關係簡報沒有出來之前我先問一下就是說因為今天其實就是大家最關注就是兒家屬那兒家屬裡面現在我們的規劃是五顆但是其實我們是五組三顆 每組三顆但是我們希望調整到六組因為其實我這個一直陸陸續續以來我已經跟了23個兒少相關的團體來討論那這是我的版本是團體所希望的版本所以他們為什麼會希望到這個"},{"start":83.448,"end":101.248,"text":"六組呢最主要是說我們根據CRC其實大家都非常希望我們的兒少權利組下面呢可以我們要多一個育兒支援組就是把家庭支持組跟育兒支援分開因為過去他們放在同一個部同一組的時候呢托育其實花了太多太多的資源了"},{"start":101.829,"end":127.186,"text":"那跟人力那事實上我們在家庭的特別是親子教育或是育兒指導等等的部分其實都沒有足夠的支持所以大家會希望這個部分有一個獨立的支持然後把托育也就是獨立化這樣子那特別還有第二點是說我們希望在這個兒少權利組下面有一個少年發展支持科我想部長一定也非常清楚這幾年大家一直在喊說我們的少年的預算剛剛"},{"start":128.827,"end":143.996,"text":"主席講的是兒少整體預算是2%但是如果我們在裡面細看我們青少年的支持的預算是年年下降已經降到8%了所以大家希望說一個少年的發展支持科讓他有一個更長期的視角來去支持然後來去主責那特別是說"},{"start":145.297,"end":165.123,"text":"還有牽扯到的第三點就是兒少保護安置組我們希望不要用業務別或事業別來分他是回到兒少需求為核心的整合系的整合式的一個保護體系從兒少保護 兒少性剝削以及性侵害防治全部整併放在同一個治理的架構之下避免像現在因為權責切勾"},{"start":166.443,"end":189.36,"text":"切割導致通報跟介入的時間點都會相當的不順暢那最後一個部分其實是我們的兒少行為的防止防治與輔導科那這個部分一樣是在兒少保護安置組那最主要的原因是說現在我想有一些反覆進出體系的就是還有具有高度風險或缺乏兒少家庭支持的兒少"},{"start":190.02,"end":208.149,"text":"那其實我們是需要有個持續性的輔導跟行為的介入來去給他們一個更好的支持所以我們是希望就這幾個點上面是不是可以往這個方向來努力部長您的想法是什麼好 謝謝委員因為我們這個委員所提的建議就是未來在我們的出屋規程裡面會去訂定"},{"start":209.009,"end":228.266,"text":"所以還有一些彈性所以我覺得這個建議也很好我們來一併因為剛剛也有委員建議要再開公聽會對未來這個編制上要怎麼樣安排會讓這個組織的效能更好這個我們都會納入來慎重的研習這樣"},{"start":229.287,"end":242.035,"text":"對 因為我們這邊也是相當支持開公聽會因為希望因為這個是一個兒家屬自己從在民間團體跟著團體們一起在倡議那終於實現的時候我覺得大家的一些想法當然我們這邊一直陸陸續續在跟這個團體們一起在討論"},{"start":244.657,"end":272.258,"text":"但是我們也是想要跟部會有一個更直接的溝通那特別是在這個兒少權利主政裡面因為我們一直在講CRC可是其實事實上我們在CRC裡面講的不管是兒少影響性評估也好或是權利包含休憩的權利這已經是世界國際專家關注非常非常嚴重的一個問題因為我們高自殺率可是我們其實並沒有好好的去想怎麼去支持他們讓他們有更好的發展我們一直在做的是後端的預防"},{"start":273.259,"end":280.535,"text":"後端的補救所以我們是希望這一個部分也是可以透過專責組織才能夠去檢視我們現在制度上的一個缺口"},{"start":281.826,"end":307.117,"text":"那最後就是緣額編制啦還是要要求我們的緣額編制一定要有足夠的編制至少要200人以上我自己算了一個版本大概是228人那我其實都算得非常的清楚那我也希望這個部長是不是可以參考我的方向來去做這個整體的編制讓資源到位讓預算到位讓人力到位我們才能夠真正的從家庭上面支持家庭支持而上那最後一個部分就是說"},{"start":308.692,"end":327.955,"text":"抱歉最後一個部分就是說部長您可以看到其實我這邊有一個非常重要的重點就是我們有設計師跟研究員的編制那為什麼要有設計師呢其實在過去兒童局的時候我們是有設計師可是到了社家屬之後沒有設計師那這造成什麼樣子的問題是我們現在社家屬"},{"start":328.976,"end":345.99,"text":"的資訊系統實在有夠難用不是只有我在說是很多人在說所以我們才希望說有一個這樣的資訊源而可以來去做整體的設計讓我們的資訊可以更好找然後還有就是說國建署跟衛福部的編制都有研究人力"},{"start":346.57,"end":364.292,"text":"可是社福社家署卻沒有編制研究人力可是社會福利偵測其實世界上面一直都在有很多的新局跟創新的要去面對現在當代的社會問題所以我也認為我們現在應該要有這個研究員的編制那以上我的建議部長是不是也都接受呢"},{"start":365.313,"end":394.075,"text":"這個我們都再請委員提供給我們把他這個資訊的部分我們是才向上集中不過呢這個每一個署還是要有他能夠這個因他業務所需要他最了解know-how的部分來協助那技術的部分我們會由資訊處來向上集中的方式來辦理所以我們把它設計起來研究員我覺得有必要因為在這一個兒少署裡面也有兒童健康"},{"start":394.855,"end":413.606,"text":"也有這個兒童福利還有剛剛兒犬所以他確實也需要有研究員這個我們未來都可以來爭取我們會在這個擬定這個初步規程的時候來討論好 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委員好那個"},{"start":34.946,"end":54.333,"text":"洪主委你好台灣就有兩隻龍一個是楊青龍一個是彭青龍雙龍飛舞股市上萬點看到兩萬點現在已經到了三萬點主委這個三萬點到底站得住站不站不住"},{"start":55.885,"end":82.856,"text":"我想我也很清楚金管會不會對未來的股市做這樣的預測當然我們還是一樣就是我們的資本市場遲早都要反映我們的基本面那你看一下今年的經濟成長率你對台灣未來經濟的發展有沒有信心其實我一直對台灣經濟發展很有信心但是充滿了挑戰跟我們非常困難的問題要解決"},{"start":84.335,"end":93.347,"text":"所以你看現在的台股已經破三萬點了這個是常態還是偶發性的出現"},{"start":96.524,"end":125.122,"text":"這個既然是創新高那當然就是現在看到的狀態我們資本市場永遠無法做一個所謂的你能夠做一個準確的預期它本質上就是反映所有全球包括國內所有資訊的總和那這個部分我們對未來這只能戒慎恐懼我們要做好所有因應的措施我們看到現在整個大盤大概是80%集中在半導體以及AI的周邊"},{"start":126.365,"end":147.079,"text":"政府也在這個裡面國發基金也推出了AI的十大建設那不是代表政府全面在做多AI相關周邊以及半導體嗎我想我也非常清楚像這個因為台灣不能夠"},{"start":148.587,"end":172.377,"text":"獨外於全球整個的趨勢跟影響剛才講這個東西是全球在主要經濟體大概都一樣面臨到這樣一個趨勢的選擇跟市場上的判斷所以主委你還是看好AI囉我剛才講說我個人來看的話因為我不是這個專業那專業是誰這個AI的專業很多啦但至少多數國發會不會"},{"start":174.739,"end":194.922,"text":"國家發展委員會這個算是專業啦我請一下高副主委那你們在整個未來的發展我看到你們持續還是重壓半導體以及AI周邊的相關公司啊這是世界的一個趨勢潮流嗎"},{"start":196.291,"end":221.581,"text":"我跟委員報告AI絕對是各個國家國力競爭的要素之一很重要我們AI新十大建設裡面其實我們除了要確保台灣的核心的AI的競爭的技術面以外其實很重要一個是創新運用這一塊所以我們創新運用這一塊其實我們是希望透過創新運用帶動百工百業的"},{"start":222.421,"end":224.725,"text":"產業轉型跟升級尤其是傳產跟中小企業所以並不是獨厚所有的AI或者是半導體產業這個有沒有包括算力中心"},{"start":235.595,"end":258.439,"text":"我想算力中心是AI的基礎建設是每個國家一定就是說算力會變成每個國家的一個基礎的建設部長妳也不要怕因為台灣就是重壓半導體所以現在台灣的人均GDP已經超越南韓了大概明年也要超越今年"},{"start":259.439,"end":267.042,"text":"馬上要超越日本其實應該是原因沒有其他這個就是一個時代的潮流跟未來的一個趨勢我覺得與其說我們重壓還不如說我們在AI的創新運用的這個國際的競賽的賽道上我們站到一個很關鍵性不可或缺的地位"},{"start":277.606,"end":296.227,"text":"你不要怕啦 你就是支持他就對因為 娟生晃 黃仁勛也是來自台灣阿台灣幫助台灣人 這有什麼害怕的對的事情就堅持那既然往這個方向發展請問今年的經濟成長率大概你們預估是多少"},{"start":296.767,"end":319.518,"text":"今年根據主計數預估大概是3.5次那ADB有到4%左右那這個成績其實還蠻不錯因為去年我們是7.37去年年初的時候就是換到前年年底左右你們預估只有3點多而已結果去年出來的成績是7.35"},{"start":321.348,"end":347.526,"text":"那個報告委員你的數據有點低估另外再請教一下國發基金裡面現在有沒有持股台積電當然有比率多少6點多6點多對6%多6點那就是有36兆多囉是不是按照他市值來算的話3兆多啦3、4兆的股票的市值啦對那面對現在的情況"},{"start":348.703,"end":375.561,"text":"那你们会不会卖因为股价已经很高了会不会卖股票我们最近我们很多年都没有出脱台积电的股票很多年是因为那时候五百块开始起涨你那时候当然不会卖因为那个投信工会理事长张喜从五百块一直喊喊到一千多块还在喊就证明他是对的所以你们当初我一直逼迫你们就说你们到底要不要卖"},{"start":376.321,"end":402.834,"text":"還好你們那時候聽了本席的建議一張都沒賣現在本席還是繼續要請問你因為台積電之於台灣未來經濟的發展還是相當的重要所以你們手上台積電的股票會不會賣我們國發基金持股不以獲利為目的所以會不會賣所以我們會秉持我們覺得我們需不需要持有這個台灣的策略性產業的思考的範疇來決定我們"},{"start":405.376,"end":431.318,"text":"我們會不會有相關的事故的行為需不需要繼續掌控這樣的一個核心的價值跟技術那個委員你覺得呢很需要啊對很需要所以你就不會賣就對了我剛才說過我剛才我們的處理的原則是小心啊不要台積電最後淪落變成是美國的附庸因為持股最多還是外資啊是不是這樣"},{"start":433.19,"end":444.738,"text":"目前是 可是他不是單一的大概都是Pension Fund那些等等的他不是 如果是單一投資人的話我想國發基金還是最大的因為我們有這樣的基礎我最要恭喜的就是財政部莊部長每天笑嘻嘻今天都開心部長 你知道現在日均量大概"},{"start":459.42,"end":478.189,"text":"已經破紀錄一天成交八千億我們在場的證券交易所林董事長等一下一起上來一下你也是福星福將上去我看你也都是運籌帷幄笑裡談兵隨便都是破紀錄來 部長"},{"start":480.58,"end":500.309,"text":"如果每天日均量都是八千億那請問你們八千億你們一天大概政府的證交稅抽了多少錢可能要算一下來旁邊算一下三分之三嘛八千億嘛三八二四二十幾億吧"},{"start":503.108,"end":530.336,"text":"還有當沖降稅我的當沖降稅減半現在當沖的部分大概市場裡面佔了百分之多少的比例上次我們算到40%那你扣掉你就政府只要這個股市一開張你就輕輕鬆鬆落袋21是吧那預估今年的增交稅大概會預算會有多少"},{"start":531.87,"end":540.323,"text":"你说1145年还是11今年是115年因为去年已经过了而且去年我们全部的税收又超增"},{"start":542.612,"end":567.006,"text":"14年的目前來說我們要等到12月整個結算以後才知道那目前來說到11月底為止因為只有達成預算數的94.6%那我們會等到12月底可是12月表現也不錯啊12月底當然是證交稅那部長你看面對現在證交稅這個今年度你大概變多少"},{"start":568.584,"end":589.467,"text":"什麼 對不起政交稅 今年的預算因為還沒有經過大院的審議沒有 你現在送來的資料是要多少我們的預算案數的政交稅是2501億你又低估了如果以日均量8000億來算的話那你一年的預估是多少"},{"start":590.047,"end":617.385,"text":"我們基本上我們會用整年的一個平均數來計算這個證交稅那當然我們在編的時候事實上是在今年譬如說14年再編15年的時候大概在四五月就開始做籌編事實上很難去預估說15年整體的證交稅日均量的平均量是會是多少那大概都好了我們把這個市場把餅做大我們也歡迎很多海外的資金可以進來投資那"},{"start":619.827,"end":623.849,"text":"最後再問一個問題普發現金現在進度怎麼樣全部都領到了嗎普發現金目前已經領取的人數超過2170萬人了大概是92.22%的人都已經領取了面對這次的普發現金整個作業流程部長您滿不滿意"},{"start":643.727,"end":672.156,"text":"普發現金因為我們採取多元的管道方式目前來說都算順暢其實這一次普發現金的民調大家普遍都是按讚這個對財政部是一種嘉獎跟激勵謝謝委員我們也希望說今年如果稅收超增的話有這樣的一個經驗立刻再補辦一次再來辦一次普發現金也許不到一萬六千塊也可以部長你說好不好"},{"start":673.781,"end":684.667,"text":"委員今年的整個稅收跟預算數之間的差距我們會等到12月底的數字出來以後大概會有一個明確的一個數字好 謝謝因為證交所董事長來講幾句話好了"},{"start":688.151,"end":709.403,"text":"股市三萬點台灣經濟有亮點那請問一下林董事長你對現在整個台灣的這個股市這樣會不會過熱或者這只是新年的第一個起步而已因為馬年又到了啊馬年到萬馬奔騰有沒有信心這主要我們的"},{"start":717.322,"end":740.152,"text":"這個上市公司的基本面都非常好啦所以我們基本上我們還是還蠻審慎熱觀的現在已經有32個千斤股啦這個正不正常啊這個都是市場的機制的反應這個我想這個跟全世界的脈動我想台灣證券交易所現在跟全世界脈動真的都非常的緊密相關"},{"start":741.557,"end":748.72,"text":"好 謝謝繼續努力啦好 謝謝我看你是福星福將兩萬 三萬點一直破謝謝有沒有機會到四萬點好 謝謝盧委員"}]}},{"id":"166901","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166901","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fa891e316fb26255e4473b985e049f91a5aa3b5816bd951efe5ef2ea4dde02c8b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"11:11:41 - 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麻煩請陳部長我們請陳部長委員好部長好 我們來先看一張照片"},{"start":33.669,"end":61.158,"text":"这张照片不晓得部长还有没有印象就是在去年这个杨柳台风重创台东的农业那本席和部长还有我们卓院长以及庄瑞雄委员到现场去看灾时的照片那当时呢受创的不只是农产品而已就连这个农产品的运销集货厂也损失惨重而且呢现场是满目苍蝇啊"},{"start":61.758,"end":76.772,"text":"那这个农民团体它是真的很惨因为它的运销集货厂还没有开始营运就遇到台风就先惨赔了好几百万"},{"start":78.353,"end":95.348,"text":"我想這樣的情形呢我相信它不是空前也不會是絕後所以因為我特別我的今天這個提案內容其實起源也是有遇到這樣子的案例那當事人也有跟我澄清"},{"start":95.908,"end":112.446,"text":"那这个农民团体的这个经营农产品运销集货场本来其实就会遇到很多的困难那所以政府都应该要尽可能来协助他们过去的这个法令会强调说希望"},{"start":114.168,"end":129.407,"text":"農產品運銷集貨場地使用這個公有土地目的是希望農產品的這個集貨場呢可以比較穩定的經營那其實現在的這個公有土地的取得其實也是困難重重啦所以"},{"start":129.767,"end":145.379,"text":"有心經營這個集貨廠的農民團體不論他是用這個公有土地或者私有土地農糧署呢仍然都會給予相當多的協助不會因為這個土地到底是公有或者私有這樣子沒有錯吧好那"},{"start":146.745,"end":171.989,"text":"我提案修正的这个农产品市场交易法第十条是从这个民国七十年制定之后呢就不曾再修订过了那我的这个提案内容呢是跟这个农粮署讨论很多次的结果希望未来不论农产品运销集货场地的用地不管它是公有或者私有都可以享有政府税制上的优惠那我要请教部长就是不知道您的看法如何"},{"start":172.751,"end":201.417,"text":"我想第一個基本上我們同意就是說只要是共同運銷的場所它都是協助我們把農產品進到消費市場的最後一里路所以後續的這些適容它的農地它地面適容農地所以它的房屋稅房屋稅是可以減半但是地價稅的部分應該也可以減半但是剛才好像財政部有特別提到其實地價稅本來就可以"},{"start":202.611,"end":230.226,"text":"就是免地價稅的嘛不過看起來我們討論很久在這個案例他並沒有他沒有辦法被解決啊沒有所以我們這次修法就可以處理了就把它處理了好謝謝那好這個時間也到了我快速問一下部長你知道這個原住民的平均餘命是多少嗎應該是82年多歲吧"},{"start":230.857,"end":258.815,"text":"我想我不知道是你的幕僚给你提供82.7我们的原住民平均我们没有那么长寿我们平均余命是55没有我讲82.7是我们是针对从事农业的原住民他临老农津贴我的问题是原住民的平均余命如果说整体的平均余命我大概没有讲过而且部长你讲的应该是这个平均死亡年龄"},{"start":260.751,"end":279.83,"text":"不是平均余命这个部分这几个数字我想部长应该要先就是也是需要先弄清楚抱歉我更正一下原住民的平均余命不是55我是说我们的这个老人的定义在原住民那边会被定为55岁那原住民的平均"},{"start":280.951,"end":295.876,"text":"餘命也沒有到那麼高那這個其實我們努力了很多年他都有將近10歲的差距雖然近年有縮短一點點但是呢他還是有將近10歲的差距這個部分"},{"start":297.296,"end":318.346,"text":"我想這個要請你們幕僚跟部長重新做一下功課那因為我要強調就是說平均死亡年齡跟平均餘命是完全不一樣的統計數據而且這個平均餘命沒有針對農民的統計因為有一些媒體引用部長備詢的時候說的內容所以我覺得有必要在這邊跟部長詳細說明因為這個會影響到我們"},{"start":321.008,"end":348.348,"text":"這個老農今天就是說上次我希望就是說老農今天針對原住民的年齡要下修到55歲的時候部長的回答跟實際上是落差是很大的所以就算要比較這個平均死亡年齡也應該以原住民的農民的平均死亡年齡跟全體的農民的平均死亡年齡來做比較所以這個部分我希望部長你們重新再去"},{"start":350.024,"end":377.877,"text":"了解一下實際的這個數據是怎麼樣不能說拿這個原住民的農民的平均死亡年齡的數據跟全體國民的平均餘命來做比較這樣的基礎是完全不對的那這個也是我們原住民的全體國人的這個平均餘命的差距也是一個長期沒有辦法改善的問題所以有關這個老農今天原住民下修年齡規定的提案也還是請部長可以重新來評估來支持"},{"start":379.02,"end":397.128,"text":"我想謝謝委員提供這樣的一個資訊那我想我們當初在考慮就是農的應該跟農的比那我上次是82.7是跟80.7跟全體在比那你這邊提供的資料我想我們後面會去會去精算一下如果說從農業的部分"},{"start":397.768,"end":420.142,"text":"他86.5跟82.7他至少差了大概將近3大概大概是3.8嘛3.8歲那我們怎麼樣去設計他是不是可以去降低老農津貼的勤領的年齡啦我覺得這個必須要去做一個精算跟討論對那再麻煩你們再重新演繹啦好謝謝謝謝陳英委員的資訊謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166900","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166900","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f8071550ae5945dbd91c86f75780029905aa3b5816bd951eff142c201840b90755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:07:21 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有了新組織 有了新人力沒有預算的歸宗海料料啦 下一頁我盤點了我們對於今天的其中很重要的兒家屬"},{"start":59.588,"end":77.024,"text":"跟長照社會發展署的升格成立那我們代表我們對少子化政策跟長照的投入要升級您可以簡單的告訴大家我們少子化對策的預算投入目前是已經破千億了嘛對不對"},{"start":78.505,"end":85.252,"text":"那從2016年蔡英文總統從馬英九總統接下政權到現在成長了6.8倍150億攀升到2016億來投入0到6歲國家養那長照3.0成長了多少"},{"start":96.844,"end":125.657,"text":"那個更高那麼在105年的時候當年度是49.7億的50億左右到明年的話會突破1000億對 2026年1153億長照3.0 1153億換言之我們執政成長了23倍那搭配今天要成立新的組織都再一次揚顯少子化跟長照是我們的重中之重好 下一頁"},{"start":126.497,"end":155.579,"text":"但我們就來看看我聽您盤點了一下你知道今年總預算到現在還沒審查喔2992億受衝擊裡頭衛福部是重度的受災戶我們擺第四名啦國防部當然首當其衝國防預算780億美金每當是第一名第二名受衝擊的我這是以預算的金額的高低經濟部第二名交通部第三名衛福部第四名這種榜上有名都是壞事"},{"start":156.66,"end":182.033,"text":"因為錢就沒辦法開沒辦法贏所以不管是加總起來總預算受影響或是乃至於一般性補助款受影響我們的衛福部都是Top 5前五名那現在怎麼辦呢夏業我相信我們的委員今天站在這裡部分黨派都會支持我們衛福部的組織改制只要我們把少子化對策把長照大家關心的事情能夠真的做到位"},{"start":182.873,"end":204.514,"text":"但是呢就預算論預算你們187.2億沒有辦法動之的預算會嚴重的衝擊了就是我剛講的這兩個新興的重要的政策面向下一頁好您簡要的告訴我們當然大家關心新生兒的預算要補貼到一胎10萬"},{"start":206.155,"end":235.034,"text":"那我們受影響就是42億沒辦法用影響的新生兒是多少數量新生兒因為我們去年來算的話大概是10萬多啦不到11萬那沒有辦法動之的預算呢我大概算了一下大概是7100位7100位新生兒乃至於新手爸媽就領不到這個一胎領到10萬補助的政府的福利"},{"start":235.894,"end":245.861,"text":"第二個公托各縣政府各縣市政府都在爭取公托受影響不能支用的預算是14億會有幾處沒有辦法設你們盤點過詳細的數字好大概49處以上"},{"start":254.267,"end":280.462,"text":"那健康台灣的部分您可不可以清楚的告訴大家就防疫就智慧醫療就藥物韌性的部分會承受什麼樣的負面影響跟委員報告其實我們在今年有很多的新興計畫要進行因應著整個全球這個關稅貿易的改變所以我們有藥品韌性的整備計畫這個是四年240億那麼明年就今年就已經編列"},{"start":282.703,"end":305.968,"text":"就19億受影響了就已經近20億了對那另外為了這個新興傳染病的問題我們有這個One Health全球這個防疫一體的這個計劃那麼這個計劃呢也是今年要啟動的那這個是完全新興的所以沒有審查預算是完全23億的疫苗產業防疫整備也沒有啊完全不能夠"},{"start":307.352,"end":322.094,"text":"那智慧醫療的時代來了智慧醫療20億科技預算裡頭要推動的這個智慧醫療那麼還有這個長照3.0也是今年要啟動的裡面有一些部分的預算那麼會影響"},{"start":322.875,"end":347.315,"text":"所以這是一個中整的數字啦所以從新生兒42億生育補助領不到地方的公托家園公設托嬰中心49處以上沒有辦法行設因為14億不能用乃至於您剛剛說的健康台灣生根計畫新年度70億從防疫的整備到智慧醫療到藥物韌性全遭殃下一頁"},{"start":349.156,"end":361.709,"text":"所以我要今天花了一點時間整理出這些數字當然也非常謝謝民間的團體我們站出來發聲以近10年來我們的托嬰中心的收托人數成長了10年成長了3萬多人成長率是3.2倍"},{"start":369.477,"end":386.833,"text":"所以說這是一個對的政策政府來扶植廣設拖曳中心來協助新手爸媽進行有品質的拖曳這是數字會說話所以我們要支持設更多的公托中心下一頁如果新年度的預算還不省14億的預算沒了"},{"start":387.834,"end":403.508,"text":"六都你看不分藍綠各個縣市每一年都在努力中央地方協力來增加公托你看各縣市都在拼公托的設置加速所以中央的預算卻下不去因為沒有錢 夏業"},{"start":406.114,"end":428.609,"text":"49家N處是現在盤點出來如果藍白在野委員總預算不省公托的預算不到位已經可以算得出來從彰化台南屏東台中新北市等等會有至少49處的公托設施這是已經有計劃的就沒有辦法補助他成立了"},{"start":429.764,"end":449.278,"text":"加N的意思是我們還有多的9.46億是可以供地方政府再來申請再來申請可以提計畫所以49加N個公托設施為什麼在野黨的委員不讓預算通過甚至連審查都不審呢最後一頁長照"},{"start":450.6,"end":459.018,"text":"長照雖然編在基金啦齁但是長照在新的一年度我們的預算也來到1100多億總預算如果不省大概230.5億的長照預算"},{"start":462.051,"end":490.91,"text":"即便編載基金他一樣是新興的新增的預算沒有辦法支用所以我希望今天也透過這裡我們再一次透過我們的答詢執政黨我們全力的捍衛支持預算我們希望預算要審查如果在野黨認為供托不要設這麼多你可以減少預算沒有關係如果在野黨委員認為長照3.0要精進預算也不想給這麼高也沒有關係可以討論"},{"start":492.111,"end":506.515,"text":"但至少要審查吧至少要審查吧我也真的就今天的法案的審查跟詢答我們可以再一次的見證我相信委員們都支持新社組織來照顧兒少來照顧長者"},{"start":509.736,"end":523.132,"text":"但是有了組織 有了緣額 有了人力沒有預算就萬萬不可好 我們繼續努力繼續遊說讓相關的團體一起站出來為全民的預算來發聲辛苦部長 辛苦大家好 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部長好 市長好"},{"start":29.88,"end":56.981,"text":"部長到農業部擔任次長跟部長大概多久了多久啊我108年3月當次長6年了嘛7年了我記得在你當次長的時候你有處理什麼議題是讓你印象深刻的那時候你還在當次長我這樣直接講好了我那時候對你印象深刻的就是之前的陳部長啊在推動農藥減量"},{"start":60.068,"end":72.988,"text":"那时候你在次长的时候你协助了我们的实名制对不对对那有没有受到当时一开始很大的不适应甚至反弹甚至压力有没有那时候非常大的压力是来自于哪里"},{"start":73.732,"end":98.516,"text":"蛤來自於哪一個地方來自於農藥行農藥行本身他認為你用實名制登記的時候會讓他有一些藥有沒有沒辦法賣這個我們就不提農民本來也不太適應對農民一開始覺得說太麻煩了後來連肥料都透過實名制解決了供銷的問題後來這個制度是證明是有幫助的對農民現在也接受了"},{"start":99.517,"end":113.656,"text":"對 現在農民農藥實名制肥料實名制都可以接受那農藥行他也不再反彈了嗎對 90%多都已經接到POS系統了那對農藥廠來講這也沒有影響到他們的銷售完全沒有影響好 那整體來講這看起來我們台灣的農藥"},{"start":114.917,"end":135.304,"text":"農業用藥有沒有減一些下我們現在的目前農藥十年風險減半的部分我們預計在117年可以達到52%風險減半包括用量也減少劇毒農藥退場很好那麼這就是造成我們台灣的環境跟農民的健康的保障那我現在再請教一下那農民用完的農藥罐農藥容器怎麼處理"},{"start":137.779,"end":161.272,"text":"有回收嗎我們環境部有一個資源的回收的一個辦法所以我所知道的是農藥廠比照其他的容器業者他有繳個基金那這個基金再去支持回收業者回收那請教一下你在鄉農村外面看到的這些丟棄的飲料瓶你分得出是飲料還是農藥嗎"},{"start":163.018,"end":184.611,"text":"看外觀應該看得出來看得出來很好所以我要告訴你其實農在實荒的人的過程當中啊他們不太想去碰農藥瓶是因為回收場不太想收因為農藥瓶的裡面可能有氣味而且你知道嗎環境不規定喔同樣是塑膠容器農藥瓶的部分要格外的處理他也不能夠壓縮那很佔空間還會有氣味你知道這個部分嗎"},{"start":185.211,"end":203.332,"text":"了解 他要四度的 要三次的沖洗對 所以說目前你知道目前環境部本來指定的專一全台灣只有一家廢氣農藥瓶容器的處理廠他已經沒有辦法做了這段時間是用焚燒的方式嘛阿現在環境部還在找一家來做嘛你覺得怎麼樣解決這個問題 減少環境的破壞"},{"start":207.02,"end":226.318,"text":"我覺得我們可能接下來我想這個議題我想會跟環境部去處理很好 我來支持你而且我也提出了一個過去最早我們在回收這些容器 廢容器最早的寶特瓶 你知道有鴉瓶精吧你說以前我們小時候買米酒 啤酒一支可以退一支嘛你知道現在一支可以退多少嗎"},{"start":227.383,"end":248.993,"text":"米酒啊一支退四兩口五口四口啦四口那你有沒有看到人家啤酒瓶亂丟嗎沒有因為都被回收了嘛是所以請你往這個方向來思考一下好不好了解那另外一個很小的事因為時間到了那拜託你指示一下薰牧師我們這個黑豬的退場或者規模轉黑豬轉化退場或者規模的縮減"},{"start":250.053,"end":274.528,"text":"那個母豬的部分的退場的機制有沒有研議出來簡單講就好我們應該有研議吧我們應該有研議可不可以來找個時間來跟我報告一下因為我現在在1月中可以完成因為我記得那個委員特別提到母豬本身有沒有它跟肉豬是不一樣的所以我那時候就有一個規劃針對這個母豬的這些退場的部分而且我記得我也抱怨了啦"},{"start":275.288,"end":303.044,"text":"是不好意思我用抱怨的方式好了你們是報行政院啦我以為你說我在抱怨不是不是報行政院因為他需要一些經費一月中可以啟動嗎應該應該可以加油一下好不好我們屏東的能力很非常需要那農藥廢棄容器的部分再找時間請次長或者我們的房間署是哪個部門負責的農藥廢棄容器是房間署房間署嘛請他們一起來好不好謝謝部長謝謝中加兵委員"}]}},{"id":"166898","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166898","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f82ba8c43ddc1632c01bb1e1b9e929a615aa3b5816bd951ef1e89c52ab37a9fb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:00:00 - 11:09:11","影片長度":"00:09:11","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T11:00:00+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T11:09:11+08:00","duration":551,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0434687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.3472187500000001,"end":2.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.86596875,"end":4.992218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.72596875,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.594093750000003,"end":15.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.72909375,"end":82.76909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.19659375,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.985968750000005,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.61659375000001,"end":59.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.14034375,"end":118.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.35471875,"end":115.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.62846875000001,"end":124.90596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.05784375,"end":147.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.08909375000002,"end":141.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.38784375,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.61971875,"end":149.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.66159375,"end":155.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.20471875,"end":163.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.43159375000002,"end":182.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.83659375000002,"end":163.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.17534375000002,"end":201.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.14721875,"end":222.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.61221875,"end":230.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.57346875000002,"end":228.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.41284375,"end":262.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.26096875,"end":256.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.99034375,"end":260.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.18409375000005,"end":280.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.27534375,"end":272.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.60346875,"end":278.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.24034375,"end":280.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.30346875000004,"end":287.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.77096875,"end":339.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.67409375,"end":349.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.33909375,"end":354.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.24971875,"end":363.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.11409375,"end":359.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.58596875,"end":369.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.25659375000004,"end":365.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.84659375,"end":411.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.09471875,"end":375.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":411.78096875,"end":431.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.16034375000004,"end":414.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.91409375,"end":424.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.03534375000004,"end":439.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.45284375000006,"end":432.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":434.51159375000003,"end":434.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":436.89096875,"end":437.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.21971875,"end":441.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.27846875,"end":451.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.55534375,"end":461.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.95471875000004,"end":463.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.00096875,"end":464.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.02596875,"end":465.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.78096875000006,"end":478.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.78346875000005,"end":483.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":480.93471875000006,"end":481.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":483.19596875,"end":495.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.08596875,"end":486.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.967218750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副主委早副主委 這個政府啟動了兆元投資國家發展方案這樣一個重大的政策號稱要引導民間資金投資國家建設以及策略性的產業有三大策略創新促進的機制 優化投融的融資條件增加相關的金融商品"},{"start":47.711,"end":76.542,"text":"所以我首先要請教副主委你們的兆元投資方案現在推動已經一年多了三大策略到底帶來多少的實質投資有沒有統計有跟委員報告一下比如說我們的那個初餐的專案裡面大概今年簽約的大概會有3300億元然後呢我們那個永續債的相關的發行也到2000多億"},{"start":77.422,"end":101.4,"text":"兩千九百多億然後呢其實我們還鬆綁了相關的一些法令的規範比如說是我們希望工建型PE跟VC他們可以那個我們降低他的RVC然後我們也請各主管機關主動函示公共建設屬於策略性產業的比如說AI算力中心啊節人等等他可以適用比較好的"},{"start":102.581,"end":128.414,"text":"這些風險係數可是它引發多少投資那個我們就沒有在做估算然後我們國家融資考證機制有6成提高到8成也增加了很多的綠能的投資的案件等等的我想我們這個方案其實最重要的精神在於我們要創新新的機制因為走老的路到不了新的地方所以我們希望透過"},{"start":129.874,"end":149.811,"text":"機制的創新法規的鬆綁等等的我們引導我們的國內的這些奏顯業的資金政策的指向我們非常清楚是了解這一年內你推出之後剛才你講到說簽約金有3300億大概就是150件對不對是150件對"},{"start":152.873,"end":177.543,"text":"我想這個你剛才提到說有這個整個這個整個到底是新增的從計劃源頭擴增新案源 擴增案源到這個從去年就從去年到現在為止政府主動促成的私人參與公共建設的案件中新增案源的占比大概是多少 你有沒有統計"},{"start":178.71,"end":203.828,"text":"我想等一下會請財政部我跟委員報告就是說其實我們一個案源就是從起到真正簽約其實是要有一個時間的落差的所以我們現在最重要的事情我們有一個叫指標型的專案譬如說我們以後規定所有的再生水跟海淡廠都一定要走促餐這個大概有八百多億"},{"start":204.668,"end":222.893,"text":"然後我們現在在推很多的社會住宅現在都還在規劃當中我們以後會有一個大型的社會住宅的方式然後還有長照機構還有文教設施那些還有數位建設其實我們都是在陸續盤點當中如果委員有興趣的話還在陸續盤點還沒有完全揭露就是在規劃的過程中間我想副主委適時的揭露讓我們更了解我們整個投資的一個"},{"start":233.876,"end":256.309,"text":"就是這個策略要執行的一個成效我覺得你要適時的一次一個揭露我想這個政府的期望是引資回流我們從國外的資金回到我們台灣投資公共建設這是政府的一個期望那目前有沒有量化或可追蹤的數據顯示資金回流的規模是多少"},{"start":257.69,"end":277.502,"text":"大概因為如果是金管會的話他們有他們的那個如果是金融業的話我們就可以從金管會裡面的那個金融業投資專案的那個金額裡面去了解啦那還有其他的面向 比如說我們造園我們的"},{"start":280.183,"end":308.788,"text":"投資台灣三大方案我的問題很清楚就是你們我要了解整個統計的數字到底你現在外資引資回流他的目前現在來投入你這個策略性的方案大概是多少的比例我看你我知道我說的第一個你跟我回答這個問題就好了我第一個就是剛剛其實彭主委有講到就是他投資在就是收錢資金從國外投資的比重規模大概是多少你們沒有統計"},{"start":310.168,"end":321.032,"text":"我們基本上就是我們只有統計所以我剛才一直強調希望你們要揭露到底它成效怎麼樣你們還是要揭露出來我們有促參的 有金融商品的我希望你們記住相關的統計數字能夠做出來我想我們政府現在一直強調策略性產業就是希望透過優惠投融資的條件把資金導向AI算力中心綠能 光電 健康醫療數位基礎建設等產業"},{"start":338.818,"end":367.427,"text":"行政院也要求各部會釋出具公共建設性的策略性產業類別但重點在哪裡你可以具體告訴我嗎最重要就是你的重點在哪裡啊重點在於我們希望透過一些優惠的提高投資限額的鬆綁讓受益企業資金更容易投資在我們希望他投入的這些策略性產業還有公共建設的範疇是"},{"start":368.587,"end":376.07,"text":"那我們就提高受險業投資的誘因面向去作業主委我要問你這個問題我是想問你到底你們現在操作的策略性產業它的具體的一個名單產業名攤以及適用的標準到底是哪幾個產業"},{"start":386.893,"end":411.819,"text":"如果金融機構根本不知道說你是哪個標準可以適用優惠條件對金融市場而言最怕的就是你的定義模糊你的標準不清到底要對哪幾個策略性的產業是我們要去希望投資進去的所以這些產業的名單你要很清楚的告訴我們金融市場"},{"start":412.779,"end":428.918,"text":"是 我想我们会跟金管会合作因为基本上就是五大信贷这些名单与适用的标准能够很明确的如列出来好不好好 没问题副主委你请回好 谢谢现在请金管会彭主委请彭主委"},{"start":431.57,"end":456.646,"text":"主委 你好你們在配合兆元投資方案的第二大策略裡面做出投融條件投融資條件的優化放寬尤其對保險業要透過私募股權的PE及創投的VC投資公共建設的風險係數具體可降到1.28%而且透過PE VC可間接投資策略性的產業"},{"start":459.847,"end":480.292,"text":"這項鬆綁已經正式發布並令事已經實施了嘛對不對都實施了但根據金管會截至今年6月國內保險業可運用資金大概是32.5兆對不對但其中專案運用於公共投資的實際金額大概只有1500億大概1500億左右"},{"start":485.193,"end":511.03,"text":"這個是否顯示說我們儘管誘因的政策已經施行但是真正進入我們特定的公共建設的這些投資的金額的資金就進入這些策略性產業的資金仍然很少仍然偏低現在這個用鬆綁這些法規這些投資的標的這個他們在評估這個案子不會這麼快但是我們現在等於制度要先行"},{"start":512.63,"end":539.378,"text":"這個是我們也是剛剛才鬆綁這些規定那我們也是在試試看假設這1.28是否能夠讓他們真的有這個評估以及開始有個案出現那我們也是在制度上我們先做一個這樣處理還有就是剛剛也有委員提到我們針對未來公建或投資這個範圍我們希望把它可投資的範圍加大來宣示一個政策發展的方向"},{"start":539.858,"end":552.243,"text":"主委你有沒有統計過這個離當初政策設計投資的誘因他的目標差距有多大目前只有1500億左右跟你當初設計的這個目標差距有多大你們有沒有統計過"},{"start":553.297,"end":578.308,"text":"就是我們當然希望這越多越好因為這優觀到我們整個放寬我們看到還是好像這個優因並沒有真正吸引到我們的這些受選業者去投資這是一個整體的問題我說這是一個市場我們所能影響的是買方的市場我們可以提高他的意願但是他市場上還是要有適合的標的所以這標的就各個部會正在努力不管國發外財政部"},{"start":579.208,"end":601.483,"text":"投資標的沒有很明顯嘛我剛才講你的清單投資的清單如果不是很清楚的話整個這些受險業者他怎麼敢去貿然投資呢對 所以我們在我們這邊可以來處理的這個部分的障礙我們先把它消除所以我們也要跟跨部會來全力來協作看能不能提供更多有利於他投資的這個機會"},{"start":602.864,"end":624.149,"text":"好 希望你們努力 是 一定的我再去請問一下今年受險業將正式接軌國際財務報導準則第17號的保險合約就是IFRS17以及新一代的清償能力制度那對於引導受險業投入公共建設會有任何財務上的影響嗎"},{"start":625.409,"end":637.835,"text":"有關IFRS17的部分這倒沒有很具體但是我們的TIS新的制度的話我覺得這一部分我們在未來政策上面會針對這一塊會來加大力道"},{"start":641.322,"end":657.854,"text":"最後我想又回到我們剛剛的問題就是說你現在這個放寬風險係數這個是一個硬性的誘因但是金融機構實際上在做投資決策時遇到的是風險報酬現金流等實務層面的一個評估"},{"start":658.695,"end":682.952,"text":"所以金管會你有沒有評估過這個這項鬆綁是真正就是風險係數的鬆綁是真正能夠提升市場的參與意願有沒有做任何投資意願數據的一個調查其實我們在不管是全世界實施RBC制度的國家任何一個RBC係數絕對是他們投資上非常重要的基礎參考依據這是他們整個經營成本"},{"start":684.674,"end":710.276,"text":"這個一定會有影響但是最重要的是標的本身我最後問你一個問題所以你預計今年保險資金投入公共建設的比例要提高到多少我們當然希望它能夠長遠越多越好預估多少還沒這個是牽涉他們投資醫院還有各家投資的成本我們只能正式上先鼓勵大概是這樣做好 希望你加油當然 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝李世民在外"}]}},{"id":"166949","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166949","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f6e62f293361e650c5d44f5a94e3adf35a2318d3e8cde50e9db1ce09e5d905ece5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:39:03 - 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從這個數字我們大概可以看出兩個訊息特定產業發展得非常好"},{"start":36.192,"end":52.624,"text":"成為護國神山也好或者是支撐整個台灣經濟的數字成長也好很亮麗的成績第一方面透出一個訊息就是產業發展不均衡"},{"start":53.991,"end":79.145,"text":"就是說傳統產業比方說我的選區所在地鋼鐵塑化金屬扣件他們的股價是比15000點的時候還更低所以從這個數字來看我先請教一下主委這個數字你們發現一些隱憂或者有沒有隱含一些風險或你有什麼建議"},{"start":80.761,"end":97.968,"text":"我想當然是因為我們大家關注這個指數我們這個指數是按照我們所有上市公司的權重來算的像比如說我們有看到其他國家比如它是以選擇性個股來表達它的指數其實每個指數所呈現出來是不一樣"},{"start":98.988,"end":111.574,"text":"那早上也有其他委員問說比如說剛剛委員關切說有些產業雖然說整個好像整個指數往上走的時候它似乎沒有往上走甚至在這個平均數以下大概是這個狀況這個確實也是那我們也"},{"start":114.395,"end":141.895,"text":"過去也觀察了就是說這個東西的影響的程度很複雜除了產業的競爭力的消長以外還有整個國際趨勢的這些比如投資趨勢還有這些的改變以外確實大家比較關注的就是說會不會說我們只太著重在某個產業這是牽涉到台灣整個產業國家資源好像在集中在某些產業比如說半導體或者電子產業等一下我要請教一下高仙貴副主委"},{"start":142.936,"end":169.627,"text":"所以這個情況就是說透露一些訊息某些產業正往下走不管是面對中國的競爭也好或者生產成本增加也好所以他競爭力大不如前獲利力大不如前這些傳統產業的員工比高科技產業電子業的員工還多很多而且很多是集中在中南部所以他們對股價上3萬點是沒有感覺的"},{"start":172.133,"end":201.096,"text":"所以這個部分政府要拿出具體的對策來怎麼扶植在這一波的產業發展過程中所受到最嚴重傷害的相關的產業那我再請教一下高局長你作為一個證券主管機關高局長您覺得站在政協局的角度你有沒有看出什麼隱憂或者你有沒有看出什麼風險"},{"start":203.341,"end":214.974,"text":"報告委員那因為管理這個證券市場我們其實就是強調投資人端的話就是提醒投資人在任何階段投資就要注意相關的風險然後要審慎的選擇投資那針對"},{"start":218.758,"end":247.918,"text":"市場的部分的話那我們就是要讓所有上市櫃公司的資訊透明那剛剛委員有提到說產業的結構確實產業結構投資人在投資上有一些改變那我們就是讓市場的資訊充分透明讓投資人可以做選擇那另外就是說可能相關的風險的風控的部分那我們會請券商這一端來做好那個相關的風控就您個人的經驗"},{"start":249.82,"end":258.272,"text":"以風險性來看我一直強調要請教您風險性現在的股票市場跟10年前的股票市場風險性是不是提高很多"},{"start":260.225,"end":285.077,"text":"如果單就這個股價指數來看的話當然相對的指數變高當然風險也會是增加的所以剛剛有跟委員報告說我們就會請券商在受理投資人投資的時候做好相關的封控提醒投資人相關投資都是要非常審慎的謝謝局長接著我請一下這個高副主委"},{"start":286.419,"end":304.494,"text":"就是從這股票指數看到特定產業的確是這個競爭力大幅如前成本也大幅提升這種情況政府需要介入去協助國化會有沒有這個正式這個問題有沒有提出具體的方案我想跟我一樣其實我們大家都知道我們"},{"start":305.194,"end":322.011,"text":"就台灣的產業發展來看我們怎麼樣透過產業發展的均衡第一個當然我們還是要續保我們在AI跟半導體的競爭優勢另外一個我們怎麼樣透過AI賦能或是我們協助中小微跟傳產服務業等等"},{"start":325.254,"end":342.101,"text":"做產業轉型跟升級其實很重要其實卓院長其實也有提出來說我們有中小微的振興方案以外其實我們AI新十大建設裡面最重要就是要創新運用百工百業的轉型升級那塊很重要第三個就是我們內需產業包括金融業我們的觀光旅遊"},{"start":349.664,"end":376.575,"text":"還有這個房地產的這些獨耕這一塊我們都有討論過其實有多管齊下再一分鐘這個問題就是說國安會你有提出一個兆元投資國家發展方案就是114到117主要是要把民間的資金導向國家的公共建設特別是保險基金保險相關的資金這部分你覺得你們兆元到現在"},{"start":377.375,"end":403.616,"text":"投入多少 金管會需要上限4到15%對不對可以到5兆左右現在目前投資的狀況怎麼樣保險局王局長董事長這個這應該是您的主管業務這部分目前投資的狀況以及為什麼會出現有那麼大的落差"},{"start":405.807,"end":426.161,"text":"跟委員報告那保險業資金運用其實還是要考慮到他們的未來能夠償付保險金所以在一定的投報率風險管控等等這些都是他們考慮的輸出路差也太大了你的上限是15%是5兆但你目前你金管會的這個相關的目前的執行進度是資金回流目前只實際占0.5%"},{"start":428.504,"end":453.605,"text":"是 那個委員報告一下就是最重要的剛剛其實我們的報告裡頭有講到就是按援的部分按援的部分我們還是會跟跨部會之間的這些機構來共同來努力那你們未來短期 中期 長期目標希望把這個投資的額度能夠從現在的0.5%可以提升到幾%一年之內 三年之內 五年之內"},{"start":455.195,"end":475.155,"text":"這部分我們就是建構有利的一個環境我們有很多的誘因來鼓勵保險業來做投資所以目前就是誘因不足嘛誘因不足不是單就你經管會的責任其實相關部會包括其他的包括國發會 經濟部都有相關的比方說國營事業等等"},{"start":476.718,"end":487.859,"text":"所以這個部分你應該是要站在一個督促的角度然後要請各部會趕快提出足夠的案源讓這個保險基金能夠有足夠的案源可以去投入"},{"start":489.734,"end":514.9,"text":"看這個數字的確是很大的落差邱委員其實剛剛我們這些問題都問過他們 案源不夠那有什麼委員要問的問題我們再順便答覆我們邱委員好不好好來 謝謝未來要怎麼樣這一年期的計畫三年期的計畫 五年期的計畫你們提升到多少金額 多少比例是不是可以提供給我相關資料提供給邱委員好 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谢谢我们主席刘朝伟我们请次长好 有请次长"},{"start":9.327,"end":32.424,"text":"市长好我们今天就这个偏乡地区学校的议题来做讨论本席今天聚焦在整个偏乡地区学校师资结构性失衡这边来跟您做个讨论当然这个问题已经也很久了根据教育第一线实务的统计像桃园新乌乡本席这边先做一个范例跟您做个讨论"},{"start":33.344,"end":60.26,"text":"桃園新屋区的大坡国中全校20名教师里面有8名是代理教师比例高达4成9个班级之中有6位导师是由代理教师来担任代理教师也同样兼任行政这不是单一限制的个案花莲我们举个例县府的教育处也统计了去年9月开学的时候仍有11个学校"},{"start":61.24,"end":64.522,"text":"共缺了18名代理教師瑞穗國小甚至連四年公告教師的徵選還要拆成40個職缺來發布結果還是招不滿顯示偏鄉跟原鄉的學校都面臨人力斷層的考驗"},{"start":76.528,"end":95.578,"text":"那麼這個部分本席認為代理教師在教學現場同樣投入還有專業但是偏鄉地區原鄉卻必須要高度仰賴代理教師來撐起導師行政跟教學核心的工作的時候這已經是制度性的警訊而不是個別學校經營的問題所以偏鄉跟原鄉的這個"},{"start":99.44,"end":129.023,"text":"學校長期其實面臨三個結構性的困境第一個是正式教師補不起 留不住第二個是大量代理教師承擔導師跟行政責任但是沒有等值的制度保障跟職癌的誘因第三 學生在求學的關鍵階段必須要承受高流動性的師資所帶來的學習斷裂風險這對原鄉的孩子很不利目前地方政府的因應都必須要就是在九任獎金 出示加分"},{"start":130.163,"end":146.413,"text":"來努力的留住代理教師那本席想要請問教育部那麼中央是不是可以正式偏遠跟原鄉地區正式施支配置長期不足的結構性的施衡 三個問題第一個教育部是不是已經全面掌握全國偏鄉與原鄉地區的學校當中導師"},{"start":147.574,"end":175.993,"text":"由導師的與行政職由代理教師來擔任的實際比例然後是不是有設定合理的警戒線或者是改善的目標而不是讓他長期結構產生這樣的變化第二個長期在偏鄉原鄉服務那麼實際承擔導師跟行政工作的代理教師那教育部是不是可以延逸來制度性的調整終點費轉任或年資採集或保障配套而不是仰賴地方政府分散進逐式的一個措施最後"},{"start":176.613,"end":196.647,"text":"面對花蓮縣等縣市連續多次叫針招不到人的現象那你們是不是可以考量整體失智招募的一個重整的策略從編制分發生活支持跟職癌發展的面向來協助偏鄉跟原鄉來留住真正的教師真正來留住教師"},{"start":198.148,"end":218.61,"text":"我想委員提出很多建議我們都會列入原意那目前其實從偏鄉條例上任之後開始上路之後呢事實上我們也持續投入了相當多的資源在協助那譬如說師資班的開設其實也增加了相當多包括原住民專班也都到處來就是一起來設立"},{"start":219.491,"end":239.526,"text":"那這個至於說你也指大學的原專辦還是對對大學的那個是指的那個原名專辦不過大概在那個偏鄉要能夠到大學那個可能目前的學校數也不太多啦所以應該在高中以下也請你們這邊多多多多給一些支持盡量來協助啦那那個來改善那其實就整體來看還是"},{"start":240.326,"end":261.053,"text":"這幾年來的一個實施對於那個教師的流動率代理教師的比例其實都有下降的一個趨勢不是沒有但我覺得那是不是如果有下降的這個部分你們應該有相關的資料統計提供給本席這邊參考當然本席這邊還是提醒比較實質的本席這邊談到的中年費的調整轉任還有這個"},{"start":263.314,"end":283.429,"text":"到偏鄉的獅子培育等等本席在提案裡面基本上也是有這樣一個建議所以這是不是請你們整體考量然後重點還是能夠在偏鄉原鄉不僅是資源的投注還有制度性的一個保障措施這點是本席的一個核心價值好 我要委員的意見我們會納入來一起來整理考慮謝謝好 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Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T12:36:21+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T12:44:16+08:00","duration":475,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.45284375,"end":2.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.8997187500000003,"end":5.177843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.549093750000001,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.974718750000001,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.77971875,"end":18.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.74534375,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.90096875,"end":24.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.934718750000002,"end":22.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.41534375,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.769718750000003,"end":27.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.992843750000002,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.097843750000003,"end":33.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.05096875,"end":38.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.82659375,"end":43.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.243468750000005,"end":50.875343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.212843750000005,"end":54.250343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.75659375,"end":59.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.44346875,"end":63.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.27846875,"end":65.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.01221875,"end":76.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.37346875,"end":82.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.33034375000001,"end":95.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.57721875,"end":97.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.48409375,"end":104.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.65596875,"end":108.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.26284375,"end":116.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.75534375000001,"end":122.79659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.13409375,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.45846875000001,"end":145.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.20221875000001,"end":155.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.75346875,"end":161.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.23346875000001,"end":165.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.54096875000002,"end":172.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.99971875,"end":185.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.53784375,"end":187.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.90034375000002,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.62534375,"end":193.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.68846875,"end":200.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.13034375,"end":215.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.74409375000002,"end":220.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.68846875000003,"end":231.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.19721875000002,"end":235.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.55534375000002,"end":236.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.14159375000003,"end":248.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.97096875000003,"end":252.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.85221875000002,"end":277.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.29534375000003,"end":281.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.60721875,"end":287.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.32346875,"end":296.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.03096875,"end":301.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.78096875,"end":304.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.72596875,"end":306.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.24909375000004,"end":312.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.28159375,"end":314.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.59784375000004,"end":320.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.48721875,"end":321.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.92159375,"end":323.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.81596875,"end":325.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.11096875000004,"end":326.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.81971875,"end":338.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.41846875000005,"end":328.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.77971875000003,"end":345.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.65284375000005,"end":341.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.56784375,"end":350.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.19971875000005,"end":353.62971875},{"speaker"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辛苦了美匯召委今天你的從善如流然後聽到在野黨的聲音全體人民的聲音讓這部法可以來公開公正的在討論是非常辛苦的好 謝謝先我們請內政部馬次長法務部徐政次還有陸委會梁副主委"},{"start":21.963,"end":42.826,"text":"我是最後一個在這邊質詢的那前面幾位的答詢我都聽到了那我必須要強調一下就是我們大家都非常的支持國家安全但是呢國家安全不能夠越過一個界限"},{"start":44.662,"end":54.019,"text":"我们看一下院版今天的国家安全法修正总共有三个重点第一个是要增订鼓吹战争言论的行政裁罚"},{"start":54.81,"end":75.767,"text":"第二個是要求平台要下架政府不喜歡的內容第三個是要徵定參與特定組織的罪責換句話說從你們認定開始一直到下架跟罰則幾乎全部都交給行政機關一手決定"},{"start":76.488,"end":94.486,"text":"我剛剛開宗明就說了 我支持維護國安 守護國家的安全但是我們越是講國安 越不能夠用模糊的條文來偷渡擴權但是我們今天看到 政院版的文字你們真的是太寬 標準太鬆"},{"start":97.549,"end":107.974,"text":"你們塞了一堆看起來好像很嚴肅其實是說不清楚的概念你們刻意來創造刺激濫權的空間你們現在修正了國安法的第二條簡單來講就是要處理內亂的問題我們來看看刑法上面對於內亂罪是怎麼處理的看一下刑法第100條目前的規範是"},{"start":126.522,"end":145.173,"text":"意圖破壞國體竊據國土或以非法的方法變更國憲顛覆政府而以強暴或脅迫左手實行者處7年以上的有期徒刑"},{"start":146.266,"end":157.073,"text":"同樣是7年以上的重罪刑法第100條非常明確的要求是必須怎麼樣有意圖加上強暴或脅迫加上實行行為"},{"start":162.916,"end":191.916,"text":"這麼樣才會成立內亂罪原因非常的簡單是什麼呢刑罰越重要見就越要清楚不能夠只憑意圖或者是口號就讓人民入罪避免回到思想入罪的老路我相信梁文傑民進黨你們最清楚我們再來看一下國安法第二條第一款的修正"},{"start":192.997,"end":214.855,"text":"發起、資助、主持、操縱、指揮或發展組織足以生足以生法律用語簡單講就是足以產生危害於國家安全或社會安定大家就覺得很奇怪 足以生是什麼意思"},{"start":215.799,"end":234.699,"text":"好這樣子簡單看起來你們修正的條文只要是意圖加上足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定的危險狀況就可以處以7年以上的重刑換句話說刑度拉到"},{"start":235.9,"end":248.115,"text":"7年以上門檻卻往更模糊的方向走讓執法的機關還有減掉起訴的裁量空間大幅的擴張而這樣寬鬆跟模糊最後"},{"start":252.941,"end":259.706,"text":"只剩下執法機關一句我認為你有危害人民就會被先約談喔然後就被貼標籤喔然後就會引起寒蟬效應的噤聲所以為什麼我剛剛說人民的言論自由言論自由很重要集會結社很重要所以我要再問一下三位"},{"start":279.352,"end":301.494,"text":"基本是7年以上為什麼刑法100條要強暴或脅迫裁罰而國安法是可以用更寬更模糊的標準足以生危險就辦處重刑這不是明確化 而是擴全化請三位哪位回答"},{"start":304.08,"end":321.141,"text":"報告委員 我針對第三個問題就是我們草案修改第七條跟第二條的相關的規定那我想內亂罪它的構成要件跟我們這裡國安法的構成要件本來就不一樣為什麼不一樣"},{"start":322.901,"end":338.483,"text":"同樣是刑法七年為什麼不一樣這有一點點是要讓人民噤聲讓人民害怕然後呢我先用國安法來定你定案完了之後送到法院去然後最後的財政是法院在決定的"},{"start":339.143,"end":360.033,"text":"時空背景不一樣當時的行為太陽跟現在行為太陽是有不一樣的謝謝次長您的回答時間的關係我們來看一下出自於福爾泰的朋友們有提到我不同意你的觀點但是我誓死捍衛你說話的權利當年民進黨您可能不知道"},{"start":367.301,"end":369.043,"text":"民進黨曾經為了廢除刑法100條走上街頭現在的民進黨的朋友們你們也許當年沒有參與這個自由的活動但是你們的父母親恐怕有參與民進黨的朋友最清楚了"},{"start":387.166,"end":402.484,"text":"當年民進黨的朋友你們那麼樣的有氣魄帶著人民上街然後促成刑法第100條的明確化退縮化因為當初民進黨先輩知道避免思想入罪"},{"start":403.425,"end":410.754,"text":"避免國家用刑法管人民的嘴那才是民主社會該有的底線但是今天我們看到民進黨你們修的國安法你們是反其道而行"},{"start":420.126,"end":428.252,"text":"你們想用國家安全法把當年自己那個唾棄的邏輯重新包裝然後讓模糊的要件寬鬆的入門入罪門檻配上沉重的刑度回到什麼先恐嚇先噤聲再處置的治理方式我認為這不是保護國家"},{"start":445.973,"end":472.34,"text":"我認為這是用國安之名把人民的言論或者是結社推回到戒嚴的陰影我更認為這是實質的變相戒嚴也就是行政獨裁的前奏我更講得清楚這是民進黨的墮落你們不用再發言了因為你們在這邊說 說得都非常的心虛 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12:35:16","影片長度":"00:09:36","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T12:25:40+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T12:35:16+08:00","duration":576,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.11096875,"end":1.7690937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.8534687500000002,"end":2.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.45659375,"end":4.4353437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.742218750000003,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.78846875,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.699718750000002,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.99909375,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.96909375,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.97221875,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.39721875,"end":40.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.17221875,"end":49.103468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.11596875,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.664093750000006,"end":55.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.81971875,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.02221875,"end":59.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.072218750000005,"end":60.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.93284375,"end":67.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.07096875,"end":118.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.81409375000001,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.03596875,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.42409375,"end":130.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.44096875,"end":130.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.03159375,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.04846875,"end":131.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.50409375,"end":131.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.55471875,"end":147.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.63659375,"end":150.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.99471875,"end":162.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.22159375,"end":157.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.71034375000002,"end":162.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.19971875000002,"end":179.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.74971875,"end":216.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.03096875,"end":216.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.48659375000003,"end":218.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.52409375000002,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.20221875000001,"end":227.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.61534375000002,"end":229.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.03721875000002,"end":241.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.20596875,"end":230.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.96784375000001,"end":260.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.67409375,"end":268.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.88784375,"end":272.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.39784375,"end":284.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.56221875,"end":273.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.88221875,"end":279.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.15534375000004,"end":293.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.57159375000003,"end":307.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.67909375,"end":312.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.12971875,"end":314.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.03596875,"end":319.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.97659375,"end":323.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.23784375,"end":327.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.43596875000003,"end":325.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.60846875000004,"end":331.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.89909375,"end":333.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.51909375,"end":341.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.22659375,"end":344.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.81284375,"end":343.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.63534375,"end":346.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.99784375,"end":349.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.13284375,"end":347.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.93846875,"end":356.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.13221875000005,"end":351.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.94596875,"end":366.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.96596875,"end":363.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.96534375000005,"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法務部有請家務部委員好這辛苦了 這個"},{"start":15.049,"end":32.078,"text":"如同我們剛剛在程序發言裡面有提到啦就是說最早的時候各個民進黨委員提出國安法的各式各樣的修正條文跟版本的時候當初我們看到政府的意見都是希望嚴謹以對嘛所以見請在佐嘛尤其是針對法律明確性的部分做出了若干的一些指教嘛"},{"start":32.518,"end":60.151,"text":"那當初大家就講 那我們等一下院版但我看起來院版好像也沒有脫離這樣子的一個框架現在行政院所提出的國安法修正案名義上 按照你們的立法說明說是要因應認知作戰啊保護國家安全但以這樣子的這個實際上的內容啊 卻恐怕會強害台灣人民的言論自由網路表意自由以及參與公共事務的一些權利的一些限制那"},{"start":61.207,"end":83.004,"text":"唯一的差別大概就是行政計畫有強調啦就是說我們的條文中跟當初委員的提案的差別是有加上足以危害國家安全或者是社會安定為這樣子的一個要件所以就不會侵害到人民的權利不過這本席要講就正因為國安法是以刑法或者是重大行政處分去介入而且去限制一部分人民的基本權利"},{"start":83.764,"end":112.521,"text":"所以越是這樣子的時候就越應該謹慎而為之啦針對法律概念的界定是否具體明確法律明確性為原則的確保我想這是核心中的核心也是之所以今天非常多的在野黨的立法委員都講說要掀開公聽會非常重要的一個原因法律的外觀跟號召跟訴求是保護國安但如果內部的條文不夠清楚甚至影響了民主自由那我們就講是不是國安國安多少罪惡假辱之名一行之"},{"start":112.921,"end":129.982,"text":"我覺得這件事我們還是要把它講得非常非常的清楚這個剛剛法務部有講說我們剛剛有談到嘛主以生危害於國家安全或社會安定這個條件嘛你才能進行所謂的一些裁罰所以你認為這樣不會侵害到人民的自由那我想請問這樣子的一個一段話有符合法律明確性原則嗎"},{"start":131.632,"end":150.36,"text":"我想這種刺青犯在我們刑罰的設計裡面是很多地方都有的這個部分就是一個客觀的事實就是說他的行為他加入這個組織這個組織本身發展的他就是要對於有足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定"},{"start":151.041,"end":179.257,"text":"客觀上要讓大家都看得出來他的行為他一樣 就是能夠就已經可以足以影響到國家安全那關鍵是誰來認定 逐生國家安全或社會安定這件事吧這檢察官會認定 最後還是由法官來判決那就很麻煩了嘛 對不對因為這個東西是一個 它畢竟不是一個非常明確 比如說超速其實超速 超過多少公里或者酒駕 酒測 等等它有一個非常明確的標準那那個時候你要嚴刑峻法殺人者 我們都主張要死刑 就是嚴刑峻法"},{"start":180.157,"end":199.865,"text":"這個明確的時候大家都比較不會有意見比較不會有爭議但問題就是因為是國安國安是一個非常敏感的政治題目比如說我舉幾個例子比如說我們今天有些委員對國安法有比較多的疑慮甚至是持反對的意見也許最後國安法沒有辦法順利通過那這樣是不是某一種層面的逐升危害國家安全或社會安定呢"},{"start":200.185,"end":223.326,"text":"對不對如果今天國安法通過之後有些人民因為比如說你們四條一的限制很不滿意所以組織了群眾上了街頭來抗議表示這強害了言論自由那請問這又算不算是一種生危害於國家安全或社會安定呢這個一定是個案認定的很多法律的設計不確定的法律概念絕對會存在"},{"start":224.307,"end":240.756,"text":"不可能所有的犯罪都量化所有的都量化 那是不可能的那不確定的法律概念就是要我之所以要去提這幾件事情就是因為剛剛我講了幾個比如國安法的贊成或反對有沒有通過人民會不會因為言論自由上街走這些都是政治議題對不對"},{"start":242.045,"end":258.306,"text":"對不對 就是政治議題嘛所以這樣的政治議題就應該更加謹慎處理我理解法務部的立場就是沒有每一個法條都一定可以百分之百的達成百分之百的明確但是就是因為這個東西跟政治跟言論自由跟有關所以我要求這個地方應該更加明確"},{"start":258.766,"end":281.67,"text":"我想我們已經很努力 我們邀請了我們司法院代表還有我們各部會 我們其實對於這些要件我們已經做了非常嚴謹的你剛剛回答我的時候你講的是個案認定 大家就捏一把冷汗對不對沒關係 因為我們今天只是詢問而已剛才是 剛才委員有提到說 號召一群人上街抗議可能會有抗議嘛 或者是反對這樣子的法案做法因為那個抗議的過程中有"},{"start":282.23,"end":310.801,"text":"做了哪些的行為所以啊 這個都要個案去認定這個因為有個案認定的空間是不是他就有很多權勢他就可能會造成更多的混亂這是本席在詢問的時候要先做提醒的我還有很多問題行政院版的法案總說明裡面講尤其是四條跟四條一啊這可能是很多這個一般的人民會有關心的事情就是說這因為喔近年來我們受到很多認知作戰的威脅請問認知作戰它是一個法律的概念還是一個政治的概念包委員這個部分是不是請內政部來回答"},{"start":311.161,"end":314.671,"text":"好啊 內政部來 叫內政部委員午安"},{"start":321.238,"end":345.049,"text":"認知作戰是法律概念還是政治概念包委員認知作戰目前是政治概念是政治概念嘛對不對那你用一個政治概念然後用一個法律的手段去那是因為它是法案總說明當然 法案總說明你寫進去 這是我講的嘛就是這部法案之所以大家會有這麼多的疑慮希望可以謹慎處理的原因就在這個地方因為它就很多東西 它是政治行為嘛它也是一個學術名詞啦因為它可以從不同的方向來討論那麼誰來定義認知作戰呢"},{"start":347.07,"end":374.633,"text":"它是一個政治概念對吧那誰來定義這個因為它是在法條的說明裡面所以我們在法條的運用上面不會去用這個概念去進行這就是我講的為什麼國安很多人都講說你如果反對國安法的修正你就是跟中共同路你就是不愛台灣這個我們沒有說這個沒有說我知道你沒有講啦我說很多人外界的這個我們也不同意對不對但是我們就希望就法論法尤其是這個法案跟人民的基本權利跟政治參與都很相關的時候它就會有一定的"},{"start":374.653,"end":404.268,"text":"大堆政治的政治的詞彙政治的定義他需要有行政機關去做界定這就是問題啦行政機關做界定行政機關也是政治的一部分啊他就會衍生更多的混亂我今天只是舉例要跟你說明這件事情而已嘛我再多問幾個問題比如說今天網路的言論你講四字一條因為講以國安為名我們必須確保這些東西不會危害國家安全今天我們怎麼能夠確定今天我們對政府也許對國防政策大家有不同的批評指教對於兩岸的路線有不同的看法跟說明"},{"start":404.648,"end":425.853,"text":"甚至也許有防疫那時候大家不是也吵成一團嗎難免會有不同的意見那會不會今天這個東西通過之後被認定啊這些都是有利於境外敵對勢力因為最近地緣的風險很高吧 包圍這個不會對不對 這個不會你標準在 我會或不會你剛剛講有個個案認定的過程標準就是鼓吹對台灣發動戰爭這件事情的標準是很明確"},{"start":426.613,"end":449.548,"text":"我現在講如果你整部國安法都只有談這件事情那恐怕還好但是我們看法條很多的敘述就不只是這些事了嘛對不對就是說有利於境外敵對勢力等等的他都算在裡面所以我才反覆的要強調法律明確性是很重要的尤其是這個東西高度政治敏感構成要件如果構成要件不能太政治化太政治化的時候這法案後面的爭議他就會沒完沒了"},{"start":450.208,"end":478.295,"text":"對不對 我在 時間到了 我們今天不要講太久這個第四條之一之所以很大的爭議也是因為可以停止解析嘛前一陣子的小紅書之亂 對不對那今天來講 有虛假訊息 我們就來做停止解析好 問題來啦 虛假訊息 怎麼定義比如說賴總統去年11月底的聲明講2027年中共完成武統台灣為目標 引起軒然大波總統府馬上出來開記者會講不是這個意思 是完成武統的準備"},{"start":479.255,"end":494.622,"text":"哇 那請問賴總統的說法是虛假訊息還是不是虛假訊息報委員 2027這件事情在國際上有非常多的討論那也不是說當時賴總統提出來的時候他是第一個所以這個在過去的討論裡面他曾經有不同的見解"},{"start":495.242,"end":512.611,"text":"對 市長你講到關鍵了很多事情是一個事件有很多不同的見解但是很多不同的見解我們現在如果授權給行政機關來片面的認定哪些東西是虛假訊息我就可以進行處分的時候他是不是就很容易踩過言論自由那條線"},{"start":514.052,"end":531.047,"text":"我們現在就是說言論自由這件事情我們一定會堅守但是問題是我們現在要預防的是利用言論自由來攻擊我們的民主自由體制這個是我們立法的一個原因我們今天不是拒絕去審查我們是希望整個審查的過程它必須非常的嚴謹因為這些的規範都會影響人民的"},{"start":533.689,"end":548.304,"text":"可能會影響未來的言論自由我們會很謹慎 這個部分我們會很謹慎好不好 一定要謹慎啦今天這個 尤其是這段時間的政治氛圍嘛大家朝野的關係是比較緊張的又涉及比較抽象的概念比較沉重的法律效果還有很多個案認定的空間所以"},{"start":549.185,"end":574.907,"text":"我認為在法律明確性原則還是有很大的疑慮的在這樣的情況之下如果貿然的通過他不見得能夠有助於國家安全反而有可能在國內造成混亂這是本席一定要提出來的概念我們需要謹慎再謹慎我也要用最後的時間我們要謝謝今天網美會召委願意從善如流大家達成共識先開公聽會再進入條文的審查希望大家可以用這麼嚴謹的標準好好的來完善相關的法律機制 可以嗎好 謝謝委員主教 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11:59:49","影片長度":"00:06:51","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T11:52:58+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T11:59:49+08:00","duration":411,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":1.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.7522187500000002,"end":5.127218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.105968750000001,"end":6.764093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.3209687500000005,"end":8.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.82284375,"end":14.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.33221875,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.34909375,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.84221875,"end":20.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.60159375,"end":21.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.76159375,"end":29.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.28784375,"end":31.469093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.04284375,"end":33.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.15221875,"end":36.987218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.20659375,"end":38.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.978468750000005,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.087843750000005,"end":42.471593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.977843750000005,"end":45.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.213468750000004,"end":48.259718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.681593750000005,"end":51.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.29284375,"end":54.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.24596875,"end":56.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.477843750000005,"end":58.283468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.55346875,"end":60.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.063468750000006,"end":63.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.12221875,"end":65.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.72534375000001,"end":68.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.93159375,"end":69.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.92721875000001,"end":70.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.05784375,"end":72.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.23471875,"end":74.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.87159375,"end":75.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.66034375000001,"end":79.79909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.55846875,"end":82.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.90409375,"end":83.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.13596875,"end":85.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.04284375,"end":87.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.56159375,"end":89.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.95784375000001,"end":90.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.95346875,"end":93.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.55221875000001,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.31971875,"end":101.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.09096875,"end":102.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.44096875000001,"end":104.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.07346875,"end":109.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.33034375000001,"end":109.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.36784375,"end":113.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.27909375,"end":116.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.36284375000001,"end":119.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.97846875,"end":120.92346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.67846875000001,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.98596875000001,"end":126.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.80846875,"end":128.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.05721875,"end":131.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.04409375,"end":133.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.71471875,"end":135.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.91721875000002,"end":134.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.38096875000002,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.19096875,"end":138.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.20784375,"end":137.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.84471875,"end":139.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.17784375000002,"end":140.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.43471875,"end":145.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.84346875,"end":148.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.61096875,"end":151.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.13784375,"end":155.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.63534375,"end":158.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.24659375000002,"end":1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會不會有親戚我要到我的親戚 我的戶籍不在那邊如果是當地的部落是不用當然啦 戶籍不在那邊的戶籍不在那邊的就要登記啊很多因為到都會去工作就業"},{"start":206.035,"end":229.877,"text":"對不對 為了孩子的就業 那個念書報言 只要有原住民身份的族人都不受這個管制完全錯誤 那為什麼會被那個所以委員的這個個案可能提供給我們了解一下因為我們對法律的了解是只要具有原住民身份的國人都不受這個管制因為如果你是為了治安 你就列在你的警察相關的"},{"start":231.243,"end":248.084,"text":"法例不要放在這裡 因為這個是動員困難時期這個我們會來考慮 因為已經開放山林開放遊客了這理由不大一樣啦 理由不大一樣難道我們的部落不能有遊客嗎"},{"start":250.027,"end":272.965,"text":"我們現在有兩個問題存在第一個就是說我們每一年颱風我要去了解多少人在山上我如果沒有這個管制區的話我們到時候第一時間我們要疏散誰我們都不知道那第二個就是說有很多山老鼠那山老鼠我們也是要藉由這樣的一個方式來管制那是另外一個法律治安你就放在治安那邊"},{"start":274.056,"end":301.952,"text":"目前放在這邊是因為他有他的剛剛委員提到的歷史的脈絡啦那未來如果說要放到其他的法例裡面我們會去檢討市長你不了解這是原住民部落的新生啊你先聽我講先聽我講山地管制區還有什麼管制 除了人員的管制還有什麼管制土地的管制啊 各方面的管制 縣建的管制啊"},{"start":303.186,"end":331.788,"text":"喔 拜託好不好限制建築的管制這個我們都了解 但是也有很多的部落反映他們要維持這個你真的是不瞭解部落 趙偉聽一下我們是徵詢原住民部落的意見不會嗎我這裡也有一本厚厚徵詢我們部落族人的意見 他們也是同意啊沒有 不同你只是徵詢部分的好這裡面就會涉及到國家安全"},{"start":333.459,"end":359.6,"text":"你是為了三地治安啊 治安啊你就放在你的內政部的相關的法律裡面啊你是為了治安啊寫得很清楚啦然後就會涉及到管制區的現建 進建對不對 第二 最後一項管制區報偉 那個進建建是軍事的需要不是內政部的"},{"start":360.589,"end":384.998,"text":"所以你把他移到那邊就沒有那個問題了我們移走的話他還是在啊因為國防部還是要進憲建那我們就沒有話可說如果涉及到國防的話如果涉及到國防我們當然支持啊我們沒有反對喔國防涉及到國防你要進建我們完全沒有反對但是因為"},{"start":386.058,"end":407.185,"text":"因為你是列為三地管制區就會受到這個國家安全法第六條的第三項這是連帶的什麼連帶了 好不好這個我們會檢討了 報告委員 這個我們檢討這個部分一定要支持我的修法 以上 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝 我們感謝鄭天才委員"}]}},{"id":"166927","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166927","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f345f168d89c5899a781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e9b39180705a255bfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:43:28 - 11:52:32","影片長度":"00:09:04","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T11:43:28+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T11:52:32+08:00","duration":544,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":3.8109687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.148468750000001,"end":5.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.62846875,"end":21.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.37346875,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.051593750000002,"end":34.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.33346875,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.94346875,"end":54.705968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.94221875,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.27721875,"end":79.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.42784375000001,"end":80.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.84534375,"end":82.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.56659375000001,"end":86.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.88221875,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.96221875,"end":90.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.46409375,"end":91.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.74659375,"end":95.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.39159375000001,"end":95.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.96534375,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.66534375,"end":105.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.05221875000001,"end":107.84534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.19971875,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.11096875000001,"end":114.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.03409375000001,"end":115.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.09721875000001,"end":117.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.46409375,"end":118.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.98284375,"end":120.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.55221875000001,"end":122.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.49284375,"end":123.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.11284375000001,"end":124.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.92284375000001,"end":130.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.98096875000002,"end":145.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.65159375000002,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.11971875,"end":135.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.58784375000002,"end":137.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.03471875,"end":138.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.49784375000002,"end":146.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.68721875,"end":148.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.72096875,"end":148.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.07096875000002,"end":151.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.14221875,"end":153.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.83409375000002,"end":153.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.93096875,"end":154.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.31471875,"end":155.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.97284375,"end":159.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.12846875,"end":166.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.35096875000002,"end":171.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.02596875,"end":167.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.44784375,"end":167.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.58284375000002,"end":167.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.08846875,"end":182.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.29784375,"end":184.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.73221875000002,"end":184.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.30596875,"end":184.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.44096875000002,"end":197.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.65596875,"end":185.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.46846875,"end":199.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.98284375,"end":204.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.47596875000002,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.12471875,"end":212.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.94284375,"end":214.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.93409375000002,"end":218.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.68034375000002,"end":225.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.39659375000002,"end":226.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.96596875,"end":227.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.03346875000003,"end":245.76471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其實公務的秘密應該來講 它又更大所以你往下算下來 有可能是有國防秘密 軍事秘密 或者是說"},{"start":107.436,"end":122.089,"text":"對 就是說它的最廣的概念是公務秘密底下才往下有那些根據國家機密保護法或者是刑法相關的法律規定去分"},{"start":125.214,"end":146.713,"text":"軍事機密它是大概最嚴格的這些都是在公務機密底下可能跟委員認知上有點當然跟我認知上是有差異的原因是在於說其實我們當時制定公務機密就是要把它全部包括國防國防以外軍事全部都包括在裡面國防國防以外的軍事是什麼意思"},{"start":147.971,"end":168.59,"text":"不是國防國防以外的公務機密國防以外我想因為公務機公務秘密不限於國家安全應該是你這樣講就是說你的意思就是說包含涉及國家安全或公共利益上也是在公務秘密之下所以說你認為說在現行的這個公務"},{"start":172.19,"end":192.112,"text":"上因秘密之文書圖像影像等等其實已經把我們的法條裡面包含涉及國家安全或公共利益上面因秘密的這些相關的記錄都能夠跟全面的覆蓋你的意思是這樣子就是包括國家機密那國家機密當然包括國防秘密跟國防以外的公務的秘密"},{"start":192.54,"end":222.221,"text":"那國防秘密又分成軍事機密跟軍事機密以外的國防秘密這些都是在公務機密底下所以我們你認為說這可以完整的包含說私人的這些承包商私人承包商他如果接觸到這個工程這個工程的裡面的項目規範被核定為是機密那他也就會跑過來承包商縱使沒有這個公務人員的身份他接觸了這個東西只要被核定為國家機密或軍事機密"},{"start":222.645,"end":242.269,"text":"一樣會在這一個條文的適用範圍之內所以你認為在現行的這個條文之下我們就不必特殊的在講說國家利益或公共利益上一面一致只要有現行的條文就已經完整的涵蓋住了對對對 就會把它涵蓋在裡面了OK 好 那這樣子的話我們就不會漏 才不會漏掉沒有 這樣本來就不會有漏掉的狀況對 對 對好 那這個是我們是認同的是"},{"start":242.509,"end":263.673,"text":"那另外第七條如果說洩漏交付或傳達國家機密者現行的罰則是一年的有期徒刑如果是刺探或收集最低是六個月以上那這樣子的罰則是否足夠這個部分可不可以請法務部來簡單跟我們講一下這個法律的這個破阻效果或者是內政部都可以 對"},{"start":267.651,"end":286.045,"text":"請問委員是講的是第第七條的條文他說如果說洩漏交付等等他會現在最低罰則是一年的有期徒刑那如果是試探或收集最低是僅六個月以上這樣的罰則是我們這個是層級化的就說像第二條的第三"},{"start":287.105,"end":315.054,"text":"第三款它這裡洩漏交付跟傳遞它是一個行為太陽那刺探跟收集又是另外一個太陽它是有那種行為的嚴重性的一個層級化的區分對我們知道行為的層級化有區分但是我們現在問的是說在法律上面的嚇阻效果你認為說就算是這樣有出兩個區分一個是六個月以上那一個是一年有期徒刑你們認為說交付這樣子的國家機密者用這樣子的"},{"start":315.914,"end":337.864,"text":"量刑會不會稍嫌太輕你們的 部的看法是怎麼樣這一個齁 如果涉及的是國家機密的話他交付的那個刑責會更重會更重對對對那可是我們看到的是最低刑責是一年有期徒刑那個是適用到國家機密保護法的問題那個另外一個法律也會 也有相關的規定"},{"start":339.246,"end":351.299,"text":"那這樣子加起來的話你說是另外一個法源的事情可以稍微解釋一下如果我講的時候這樣的嚇阻力是夠不夠的夠因為如果他這個交付的東西是國家機密"},{"start":352.525,"end":374.012,"text":"兩個法條的競合的關係之下我們不會使用這個法律不會使用這個我們會直接用縱法比較更重的那個法律對 會用縱法的國家經濟保護法那那個國家經濟保護法的縱法就不會用這個緊一點因為他們競合之後我們是選用這個對 有些是用國家經濟他縱的國家經濟保護法那這個是一般的公務一般的公務涉及國家經濟但是他不是"},{"start":375.268,"end":401.43,"text":"一般公務的秘密但是它不是國家機密所以這個時候用這個條文就不會太重OK 好那這個就是一個成績我現在這樣講因為之前有這個總統府部包含一些憲兵或者是這些警衛那把行程相關的資訊那這樣泄露出去當初它的適用的法條是指國家安全機密保護法還是用這種僅制公務只是公務上面的秘密這樣一年之內"},{"start":402.622,"end":415.456,"text":"他是用國防以外的秘密 他沒有核定他沒有核定嘛 對不對對啊 算是用國防以外的秘密那這樣子的話 儘管他是嚴重的影響到我們元首的安全可是他這個還是比較輕的發財這個要不要列為國家機密 這個要自己去核定"},{"start":420.762,"end":436.637,"text":"對 我理解說這個是要自己去核定但是它核定之後就像上次我們講的它是用從比較輕的這種東西凸顯那當然從那之後我們當然是可以從新政經關馬上去亡羊補但是我的意思是說未來類似這種樣態它散佈在各個不同的部門裡面"},{"start":437.378,"end":464.02,"text":"那有的時候行政機關他要疏漏的話那法律就變成是最後一道防線那如果我們還是用這樣子是用公務這樣子的罰則的話那只有一年有期徒刑但是它是後果是非常的嚴重的所以我的意思是說有沒有考量在這個狀況之下儘管它沒有被核定為比較機敏的部分但是實質上影響到國家的公共利益或者是國家重要的領導人物相關的安全的話最低罰則僅一年有期徒刑"},{"start":464.6,"end":483.407,"text":"或者是最低僅6個月以上這個罰則是否足夠能不能夠再檢討一下是 我們尊重大約的因為我剛才提到那幾個印象那是非常嚴重的但是因為它當初沒有被核定啊這個一方面也是讓行政部門自己要去檢討不能疏忽當然是行政部門要檢討主管也要檢討"},{"start":484.147,"end":508,"text":"他們甚至還有他的政治責任都需要檢討包含整個總統府 國安會這個行動當然是要檢討但是我們現在講說在法律上面想聽聽看你們的意見是不是可以我們認為適當的層級化是比較有彈性所有的法律都從嚴定下去以後萬一他洩漏的購物量明明不是非常嚴重可是因為最低刑被釘框死了以後那各位在"},{"start":508.45,"end":524.837,"text":"那法官判下去大家就會覺得這個怎麼那麼重所以有時候你還是要層級化看他洩露的東西是什麼東西我們再決定適用法律因為如果全部都從最重量型的話那就沒有辦法區分更加惡劣的行為嘛那我理解啦但是"},{"start":525.777,"end":544.121,"text":"我們剛才提到幾個例子麻煩還是放在心裡面想一下因為他的後果是很嚴重的那如果僅用一年有期徒刑或者是六個月以上他的嚇阻力確實是我覺得是稍嫌不夠啦所以還是希望你們給我們一個書面上面跟我們講一下你們的看法文字給我們好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166926","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166926","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f9357fdd1f9f599d3781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e9b39180705a255bfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:30:54 - 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Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T11:30:54+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T11:43:08+08:00","duration":734,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.10221875,"end":5.464718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.56096875,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.09659375,"end":13.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.04159375,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.290343750000002,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":22.187843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.187843750000003,"end":22.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.64346875,"end":30.000968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.574718750000002,"end":31.688468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.852843750000005,"end":35.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.61596875,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.38346875,"end":40.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.74159375,"end":43.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.361593750000004,"end":48.563468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.42909375,"end":46.454093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.16284375,"end":47.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.187843750000006,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.790968750000005,"end":54.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.102843750000005,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.95909375,"end":58.266593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.41846875,"end":60.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.84846875,"end":64.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.74221875,"end":76.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.84596875000001,"end":76.89659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.89659375000001,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.08159375000001,"end":81.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.12784375000001,"end":82.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.56659375000001,"end":85.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.58346875000001,"end":82.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.22471875000001,"end":87.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.13534375,"end":88.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.39971875,"end":97.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.34471875000001,"end":98.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.04471875,"end":105.51659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.89659375000001,"end":104.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.28471875000001,"end":104.31846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.98909375000001,"end":110.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.34284375,"end":116.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.41784375,"end":124.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.51784375000001,"end":128.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.12471875,"end":130.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.59284375000001,"end":131.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.62659375,"end":130.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.58846875,"end":135.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.43159375000002,"end":139.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.53284375,"end":141.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.27471875,"end":143.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.97471875000002,"end":145.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.86034375,"end":153.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.71596875,"end":162.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.55784375000002,"end":167.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.33784375000002,"end":170.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.95784375000002,"end":172.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.59471875,"end":175.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.76721875,"end":178.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.32784375,"end":183.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.30596875,"end":186.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.12409375000001,"end":196.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.96221875,"end":204.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.21409375000002,"end":213.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.83721875,"end":223.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.61221875,"end":223.62471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.77659375000002,"end":229.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.03721875000002,"end":233.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谢文"},{"start":547.994,"end":567.154,"text":"最後一題我想說這個有關中間人條款這個利益良善我也非常肯定但是我們看到整個行政院版的草案8-1它對於中間人行為太樣的具體定義好像沒有具體的定義"},{"start":568.342,"end":593.554,"text":"那所以高科技產業的併購專利佈局往往會需要譬如說律師會計師專利師的介入如果一家的台灣廠商要賣給外資會計師他可能負責建價律師負責合約那事後發現買家背後有敵對勢力資金那請問這些律師跟會計師會不會因為交付持有資料被當作中間人起訴這種情形"},{"start":594.506,"end":611.456,"text":"這個中間人的定義是從源頭去看的如果這個中間人你現在用講的現在我們在講法條嘛法條你沒有明確的這個行為太陽具體定義在法條裡面你現在當然回答我你可以你是活的你是人是活的對所以所以你們這邊"},{"start":618.137,"end":640.979,"text":"只有刑罰你沒有主觀故意的嚴格限縮也沒有合規的指引那我們會擔心這會不會導致專業服務機構為了避險他們全面退出了這個高科技產業的案件會不會這樣這個他的行為他一樣是在第七條跟第八條"},{"start":642.113,"end":661.512,"text":"所以我们希望是不是在执法或立法说明中能够明确界定中间人的范围也不要让专业人士踩在红线上来8条之一对于中间人就定义就已经写得很清楚了他就是受外国大陆地区港澳这些"},{"start":662.835,"end":680.457,"text":"境外敵對勢力所設立實質控制的各類的組織機構團體或他派遣之人之指示也就是這些會計師也好律師也好他一接觸到的就是這些人如果他進而又去從事的這些第七條第八條的行為"},{"start":682.325,"end":701.93,"text":"這個尤其是律師他不可能說他不知道會計師看到這些帳他很難去脫免這個責任所以這個要件裡面有好幾個買家背後到底是不是有敵對勢力的資金他們可能不會知道我們不會用結果論就是說我們查到最後是怎樣的話就怎樣而是我們的證據"},{"start":702.97,"end":730.026,"text":"有沒有辦法去證明說這個中間人是知情的這些都是靠證據去架構的如果架構的起來那當然就會用八條之一來論我想這個也許我們在我們還是希望法律整個的明確性尤其牽扯到刑法要等於我們的定義更應該明確那當然有一些細節也許我們在這個法條審查的時候我們再做充分的交換交換一點 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Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T11:25:44+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T11:30:32+08:00","duration":288,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4653437500000002,"end":5.312843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.337843750000001,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.589718750000003,"end":16.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.74971875,"end":22.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.031593750000003,"end":24.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.870968750000003,"end":28.718468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.12346875,"end":33.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.18596875,"end":37.611593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.016593750000006,"end":41.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.64034375,"end":46.032218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.43721875,"end":48.900968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.187843750000006,"end":51.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.432218750000004,"end":52.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.001593750000005,"end":55.650968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.055968750000005,"end":58.266593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.55346875,"end":60.257843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.46034375000001,"end":62.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.35034375,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.49784375,"end":67.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.80096875000001,"end":69.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.02846875,"end":72.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.30659375,"end":77.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.80784375,"end":82.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.44409375000001,"end":86.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.10596875,"end":88.05096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.32096875,"end":91.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.79721875,"end":94.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.56471875000001,"end":95.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.57721875,"end":96.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.60221875,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.63534375,"end":103.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.91346875,"end":106.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.90034375,"end":108.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.38534375,"end":110.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.01784375000001,"end":112.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.45221875,"end":113.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.54471875,"end":115.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.40096875,"end":117.61596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.54409375,"end":118.99971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.69159375000001,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.73346875000001,"end":121.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.37471875000001,"end":125.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.31096875,"end":127.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.53846875,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.91346875000002,"end":138.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.89534375,"end":139.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.07659375,"end":140.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.81471875,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.41784375,"end":144.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.70034375,"end":149.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.45909375000002,"end":152.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.32346875000002,"end":155.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.68596875,"end":156.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.59721875,"end":161.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.50784375,"end":164.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.38909375,"end":166.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.57034375,"end":167.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.66721875000002,"end":170.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.23221875000002,"end":172.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.99971875,"end":176.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.08346875,"end":179.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.85096875000002,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.02346875,"end":184.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.54221875000002,"end":186.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.71909375,"end":188.69346875000002},{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Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T11:15:05+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T11:25:29+08:00","duration":624,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.18284375000000003,"end":4.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.970968750000001,"end":6.7134687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.15159375,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.94471875,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.88534375,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.25659375,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.589718750000003,"end":27.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.296593750000003,"end":58.182218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.35096875000001,"end":84.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.45221875,"end":101.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.49784375,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.77971875,"end":96.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.75409375000001,"end":104.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.69409375000001,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.72159375000001,"end":117.10971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.59909375000001,"end":121.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.70284375,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.63909375,"end":133.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.13659375,"end":139.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.82346875000002,"end":139.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.90784375,"end":139.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.92471875,"end":139.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.95846875,"end":141.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.19471875000002,"end":141.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.94971875000002,"end":142.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.52346875,"end":142.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.74284375000002,"end":142.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.82721875000001,"end":142.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.99596875,"end":147.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.02971875,"end":144.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.33284375000002,"end":150.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.61534375000002,"end":148.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.11721875,"end":155.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.97346875000002,"end":154.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.34846875000002,"end":155.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.38221875000002,"end":155.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.46659375000002,"end":155.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.50034375,"end":155.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.73659375,"end":169.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.22971875000002,"end":159.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.34346875,"end":160.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.81971875000002,"end":164.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.69659375,"end":174.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.22284375,"end":179.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.37409375000001,"end":184.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.81221875,"end":186.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.78659375,"end":192.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.23721875,"end":194.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.12721875000003,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.16096875000002,"end":194.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.37096875,"end":208.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.53846875000002,"end":215.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.76096875000002,"end":218.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.64659375000002,"end":226.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.42596875,"end":226.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.44284375,"end":226.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.74659375000002,"end":226.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.89846875,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.19784375,"end":253.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.04971875,"end":231.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.20159375,"end":233.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.14221875,"end":233.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.90284375000002,"end":253.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.45534375000003,"end":280.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.6490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我們請內政部馬次長跟法務部徐次長市長好"},{"start":15.984,"end":41.266,"text":"我想請教一下就是馬司長因為其實這一次國安法的修法的一個內容為什麼引起一些質疑就是因為在這次修法的草案的第二條我們把這個將參與組織本身就入罪就是他就是違反這個國安的問題那但是呢有些參與組織的人他並不知道該組織本身可能已經有犯的這個"},{"start":42.314,"end":68.667,"text":"相關的法令它可能只是其中一個成員而已那所以說它不是以實際有刺密 泄密或具體危害行為的一個要件而是用這個而且我們在這個立法說明裡面也講得很清楚就是說犯罪行為人主觀上是否有意圖舉證上是有困難的所以呢現在就是用一個刑事 適性犯的構成要件來去做認定"},{"start":69.332,"end":84.641,"text":"那也就是說以前我們還要檢察官還必須要證明他是主觀的有這個意圖那現在拿掉之後是不是變成只要證明行為加上該組織有這樣子的一個足以身為害就能夠定罪"},{"start":85.489,"end":111.187,"text":"我跟委員報告犯罪本身就要有主觀的範例這個是一定要有的那如果說這個行為的人他本身對於這一個組織是完全沒有認知的他完全都不知道他只是參加完全不知道他們在做什麼這樣就不會有問題不會有過程犯罪那所以請問你們拿掉意圖這兩個字的意圖就是因為他意圖要危害社會的安定國家安全跟社會安定他有那個意圖他去"},{"start":111.627,"end":127.905,"text":"去发展这个组织就是这样才会构成的第二条第一项的所以我的意思是说以前的现在目前的官法是有现在就是因为主观的犯例藏在我们的心中是非常难证明的那因为难证明所以"},{"start":128.766,"end":153.075,"text":"有時候檢察官偵辦的時候會必須要擴大因為我們要去證明他的辦理檢察官變成說他要偵辦的範圍會變大不明確那現在因為難偵辦現在一定要客觀上對 現在是因為難偵辦所以把這個意圖拿掉讓以後這檢察官比較好偵辦標準不一樣 標準不一樣就是說我們不再去那以後檢察官會不會就說好 我就是認定我就是認定你有意圖勒"},{"start":155.976,"end":174.099,"text":"主觀犯例要有而是意圖把它具體化改成改成是四刑犯就是足以生危害於國家安全跟社會安定就是說在客觀的事實上面是看得出來這個對國家針對這個部分我也要請問其他兩位次長就是足以生危害的標準是什麼你們現在說改成嘛 足以生危害 足以生危害的標準是什麼譬如說這一個組織好他是在在這個我們社會裡面"},{"start":184.895,"end":197.702,"text":"他經常會去從事一些這個攻擊政府攻擊一般的民眾社會的大眾他有那一些就是說危害到你可以具體的舉例一下嗎因為你現在講的感覺上也是非常空泛那認定有誰來認定"},{"start":200.461,"end":218.39,"text":"現在看起來我們很多修法是改由內政部來認定而不是像以前由司法單位來認定那像這樣的狀況的話要怎麼來因為剛剛講的其實都是很空泛的也是民眾所擔心的未來的國安法我可能不小心就已經這個就是違反了國安法我自己都不知道"},{"start":220.061,"end":244.816,"text":"之前發生的向德恩的簽署那個書類就是投降的書類這個之前就是這個對民眾太遙遠了我是覺得我的意思就是說很多民眾現在為什麼擔憂這一次的修法其實當然國家安全非常的重要但是呢因為現在就是修了很多的法令讓我們覺得說很多未來好像"},{"start":245.296,"end":269.769,"text":"尤其是有些本來是在司法單位才能夠認定現在變成是內政部內政部就可以直接進行裁判我們會參與對 內政部 會商 你們法務部嘛對 但主要是內政部就有一個主責單位像以前我們可以看一下下一頁您可以看一下我們有關的這個第四條的這個修正就是有關公開我們現在第四條已經"},{"start":271.089,"end":291.859,"text":"新增了公開鼓吹倡議或支持戰爭及處以高額的行政罰款那請問一下兩位次長如何界定鼓吹跟評論分析跟轉述的一個界線是否存在的行政機關會以保護官的官單介入鼓吹是很直接的就是鼓吹戰爭鼓吹打仗鼓吹"},{"start":292.699,"end":311.396,"text":"中國對台灣軍事侵略這個都是很明確的那如果說一般的人做評論分析或是轉述評論分析不在這個範圍內所以也跟委員報告比如說主張跟中國統一我知道很多委員的煩惱是說如果主張跟中國統一跟菲律賓跟越南統一他不在這個範圍內那都是言論自由一般我說實在鼓吹跟這個評論鼓吹戰爭鼓吹戰爭還有這個"},{"start":319.463,"end":342.13,"text":"只要是公開鼓吹倡議跟支持標準那這個因為剛剛您講的鼓吹那有明確的定義嗎比如說我們現在如果說我們主管機關現在就是內政部嘛如果你們有一個主觀的一個判斷介入言論自由的一個風險的話那民眾要怎麼來報委員這個不是主觀判斷因為我們剛剛有提到第一個它有國際上的公約的標準"},{"start":342.91,"end":346.213,"text":"所以我們不會是一個主觀我們不會是主觀判斷不會第二個就是說我們跟法務部還有陸委會我們會會商這個言論本身的內容跟他的直接對於鼓吹這件事情是不是很具體"},{"start":359.686,"end":382.415,"text":"因為以前我想我們相關的這個國安法很多大家經過司法的認定其實我們可以看一下尤其是第四條之一就是大家看到第四條之一之後就會想到在數年前有一個數位仲介服務法因為引起了這個全民公憤而且被輿論攻擊的體無完膚所以暫時的就被迫暫緩這個數位仲介服務法"},{"start":382.975,"end":396.55,"text":"那我們現在看到你可以看一下內政部的第4條之一就賦予內政部在情節重大或急迫危險的情況下可以進行命令停止解析或限制接取網路的內容那請問一下這個馬次長就說"},{"start":399.617,"end":417.056,"text":"為何在未設置事前或即時司法審判機制那行政機關就是內政部會不會扮演了認定裁決跟執行者的三種角色跟委員舉的例子比如說我們現在酒駕酒駕我們直接就是扣車然後如果他有公務危險罪的話我們就移送法辦"},{"start":418.017,"end":435.429,"text":"這個也是我們 對 他很明確所以我們現在不是只有我們現在是國安法的部分事實上我們其他的法律都有類似的規範只要是對於公眾或者是對於這個安全造成具體的威脅所以剛剛委員舉的這個例子比如說我們今天假設中共在軍演"},{"start":436.129,"end":454.664,"text":"那麼中共在軍演的過程裡面又有人主張就是說這個軍演趕快進到台灣來這就是一個非常明確的立即的威脅因為它可能是集體性的飽和攻擊我們現在講的是我所謂的網路的第四條可以看一下我們下一頁就是我們有做了一個比較就是在國安法新增的第四條之一"},{"start":459.423,"end":480.733,"text":"像是行政機關直接就可以下令移除或限制以前數位仲介服務法還需要由這個原則上報委它的情境不一樣它的情境不一樣因為數位仲介法它是針對比較一般性的數位平台上面的一個治理那麼國家安全法它是針對一個特定情境所以我剛剛有跟國民報告說如果今天解放軍在外海軍演"},{"start":481.733,"end":495.819,"text":"有這個飽和性的訊息攻擊的時候我們就會採取這個重大的示範民眾會擔憂就是因為很多的界定不清楚比如說像大家一下子就會想到欸這是不是數位仲介法不是這個跟委包這完全不一樣而且是加強版的對不一樣的狀況要讓他這個也沒有加強數位仲介法還是一樣他應該要處理的問題跟我們沒有關係對沒有現在沒有對數位仲介法別的國家有我們沒有引起很大一個反彈"},{"start":508.484,"end":532.088,"text":"那當然我們現在可以看到就是說這個部分的話就是而且比如說像我們現在想說有一些是錯假訊息可能也會違反比如說今天假設說我們在在野黨的立委在我們的臉書上寫說因為國家錯誤的這個能源政策會造成經濟上很大的一個損失那是客觀評論那就是客觀評論那好"},{"start":535.409,"end":556.087,"text":"請問主觀跟客觀的評論有誰認定包委員這不是主觀跟客觀的問題這是評論本身的惡意的與否因為如果今天只是指政府的施政不利或者是說政府施政有錯誤這個都是屬於評論那剛剛我們提到就是說這種所謂的重大對於國家的安全造成威脅的言論是直接對"},{"start":557.128,"end":562.174,"text":"中華民國要採取攻擊的行為這才會構成這樣的一個要件今天我們質詢的主要的相關內容其實也是很多民眾疑慮的就是認為未來的一些比如說判定是不是有違反國家安全其實現在看起來的條文"},{"start":573.007,"end":590.659,"text":"都會讓大家覺得心生畏懼 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認定他散佈謠言就是足以影響公共安寧 火速敵送雖然是最後不起訴 但我們請教一下發文質詢"},{"start":60.517,"end":84.479,"text":"請問某一位政治人物是否過世這件事到底符不符合涉違法的散佈謠言足以影響公共安寧的構成要件呢報委員如果今天是指涉五院的院長或是任何一個高階政治人物這都是構成要件不一定是指監察院長 立法院也是一樣"},{"start":86.204,"end":96.421,"text":"這樣子的話如果符合你說這樣子是符合所以如果是這樣子的符合的話我要問你接下來這一段"},{"start":98.379,"end":124.306,"text":"有許多委員在粉專在粉專裡面社群平台每天都能看到大量的留言所以直接叫政治人物去死還有用極端的仇恨言論攻擊特定的政黨與立場刻意煽動仇恨的對立請教這些留言有沒有"},{"start":125.126,"end":153.678,"text":"可能符合社委法或你們修法草案所稱的就是仇恨性言論 自發性社會對立的構成要件我們也很害怕 我也很恐懼如果你有收到的話一定要來報案 我們一定處理全部在網路那我們一定處理 那就請警政署這邊來處理整個很多委員的都有但是要報案 要報案"},{"start":155.154,"end":175.24,"text":"這委員一定要來報案所以就是講我們陳菊的是他報案嗎還是你們就馬上接所以現在就是說報案你們在處理不報案的話就是言論自由是這樣嗎報委員他不是言論自由他基本上是違法的他不是言論自由"},{"start":175.997,"end":182.961,"text":"不是言論自由 當然是在我們改革的期間如果是這樣的話 有人在立法院外的大馬路設立我們國昌主席的靈堂依你們現在的社會法修法草案的理解"},{"start":195.749,"end":212.307,"text":"這樣的行為符不符合公共場所不斷言論或激化社會的對立以足影響公共的秩序的構成要件如果符合為什麼直到現在今天我們都還沒有看到任何的處理"},{"start":215.87,"end":238.965,"text":"人家只是在網路上就是問一句陳菊是不是過世四天內就被移送這種在公共場合直接放靈堂的行為為什麼可以完全沒事呢報言這是公然侮辱罪這個也是一樣要請我們黃國昌主席來提告提告的話我們一定處理"},{"start":240.392,"end":250.113,"text":"所以說變成是有人提告如果他今天是在立法院的外面的話要去跟中正一分局提告那台北市政府警察局會處理"},{"start":251.656,"end":276.597,"text":"所以這個法修了就是有人告 不用修法報言這是刑法的內容這不是我們現在要修的法很多人去跟你們申訴不是提告而已 這個要提告所以在你們的眼中是哪一種比較可能影響公共安寧就是就問一屆還是說公開叫你去死如果沒有提告 沒有人檢舉的話"},{"start":279.813,"end":301.698,"text":"比如說如果有人叫我去死的話也是我要去提告對 就是有提告才有處理如果說我覺得他叫我去死我覺得無所謂也沒關係看個人 如果有人叫我去死我覺得無所謂我就不會提告不是個人維護 社會維護這樣子言論發生這樣不是因為針對我個人而已 他不是針對大眾"},{"start":303.078,"end":328.575,"text":"如果他是針對比如說搭台北捷運的都去行 那就是恐嚇公眾因為我們現在要修法 還有我們要了解說每一個人這樣子的去言論 每一個人的去叫我們不怕委員剛剛提的跟我們這些修法沒有關係因為我們這個修法是國安法委員剛剛提到的一部分是社會法 一部分現在刑法有的內容我們不管是修法還是今天質詢"},{"start":329.796,"end":348.308,"text":"就是我們要講的就是維安法或者國安法國安法沒有包含這一塊所以我們想要讓你們知道的是說我們修法是要保護人民不是說有人檢舉有人怎麼樣我們是要保護國家我們國安法是要保護國家跟人民我們國家國民都要保護也要保護委員都要保護"},{"start":354.432,"end":373.873,"text":"所以說我們就看到這樣子這樣子你們都不處理會處理所以委員一定要提告所以等一下事後我們請警政署跟委員聯絡提告才要處理因為他法律構成的要件就是要提告因為公然侮辱罪這一些或者是恐嚇他是要提告他沒有提告的話我們沒辦法處理"},{"start":374.734,"end":395.042,"text":"為什麼當社委法掛在批評政論就是政治的言論上的時候就是你們就是我們也不知道說是不是告但是呢你們就是急速的去動員馬上移送立即追究但是當真正有"},{"start":395.902,"end":411.088,"text":"分裂性 或者是自發性的籌換你們都看到 都知道啊 新聞都看到啊但是你們有沒有對這樣的 如果是口賀公眾罪的話151條我們是不用提告 我們直接就偵辦了所以我們那個北捷事件之後我們總共辦了97"},{"start":413.089,"end":436.586,"text":"97件 那也有羈押的所以那個是主動偵辦 但是個人的話所以這些的話是不主動偵辦 就是要有自己要去個人跟公眾是分開的 對個人跟對公眾的恐嚇是不一樣的不一樣的構成要件所以說你們說要依法嘛 依法行政這樣就是選擇性的執法 不是選擇性 抱歉它是法律的設計架構就是這樣"},{"start":439.249,"end":444.861,"text":"對公眾的恐嚇跟對個人的恐嚇它的告訴乃論跟非告訴乃論它是不同的設計"},{"start":446.485,"end":471.986,"text":"所以說你們是說政治清算的工具啦 我覺得就是請問這個太超過了啦 沒有政治清算啦因為每天很多人去檢舉 不一定來去辦啦所以我說委員趕快來檢舉 如果有比如說網路上或者是說實體上對委員有任何的言語不敬或造成威脅的話委員來檢舉 因為這是屬於對委員個人的部分 我們一定會處理"},{"start":473.007,"end":476.49,"text":"所以是不是要檢舉才去做所以說滿天飛 網路或者電視所以說都有 有人跟你們去申訴或者什麼的話都不是個人的話 我們都沒有去辦 是別人說的 這樣子嗎"},{"start":491.055,"end":512.883,"text":"報委員這申訴的意思是指哪一個部分很多人也去說幫我們國倉委員幫我們去跟你們申訴但是呢也不是因為那個是要黃委員來報案才可以才可以是這樣子嗎就是個人別人沒辦法幫他報案我也不能幫委員報案都不行一定要他個人很多人在去反映啊那個是反映就是我們會到現場去維持秩序可是如果說黃委員來報案的話我們就會進行偵辦"},{"start":520.481,"end":527.812,"text":"所以你們就是說這個維安法就是說我們要維安法那不是維安法 那是刑法 包委那是刑法"},{"start":529.741,"end":541.324,"text":"對 我是說現在我們是因為現在網路一直這樣子恐嚇我們也是那個也是刑罰我們是對我們的人身安全對我們家人也是覺得很恐慌所以在網路都不斷的就是有這些言論委員如果覺得有人身安全的疑慮的話可以跟我們申請隨乎"},{"start":556.647,"end":584.426,"text":"好 這個我們是沒辦法去約束啦因為這網路太多來去言論自由所以我們是沒辦法但是說我們是說就是可能就是破壞公共安寧的極端言論我們看到的是這樣子所以他根本是不是一部維護社會的秩序的法律而已而是說一部讓我們的就是執政黨用來就是"},{"start":585.567,"end":590.654,"text":"要該辦你們說辦的就辦該不辦的就說你們說的算這跟執政誰執政都沒有關係過去不同政黨執政也都是同一個標準我們就是看不到標準委員你要往前看 往前看是同一個標準"},{"start":601.308,"end":628.493,"text":"我們是往前看還是後續我們希望你未來是標準你往馬英九總統時期看到現在都是同一個標準往前還是現在未來我希望你們真的是用標準的但是我們先看就是司法迫害所以我們才要說你們不標準所以我們是要呼應我們行政院還有就是一邊推動社委法的就是"},{"start":629.853,"end":658.282,"text":"擴權的修法一邊無法說清楚都是說我們沒有擴權我們是界定清楚我們是界定清楚這些危害公眾的言論我們沒有擴權所以這只要是說我們社會更安定而不是說所以希望委員支持我們我們現在國安法跟社會法修正完社會會更安定"},{"start":659.56,"end":688.96,"text":"請委員相信我們你說百分之百都不會有任何有事情是嗎是這樣的意思嗎你保證這個沒辦法百分之百全世界沒有人百分之百但是我們會讓我們會讓整個不管是社會還是國家還是人民都是我希望是說你們是你們的責任說修法法在那邊就是大家都平安我們希望的是說涉及國家安全還有說敵對勢力的"},{"start":690.16,"end":717.557,"text":"滲透鼓吹戰爭的言論未來有國安法還有就是反滲透法可以處理不要再用色違法去補刀一般的言論所以法律如果變成誰執政誰說的算那不是叫做維護秩序那就是做製造對立我們希望真的"},{"start":718.277,"end":737.651,"text":"不管是過去還是現在還是未來我們希望的是修法是保護但是執政的或者是在這個工作一定要去維護我們國民的安全這就是我們要修法的目的沒有問題 我們想法是一致的 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你們去年就講了 說目前你們掌握的受險業有興趣在公共建設 你說我包括離岸風電 再生水廠 海水淡化廠 地下水 下水道等等等等 您認了一大堆 你說第一波就有這麼多"},{"start":151.877,"end":165.58,"text":"第一波就有這麼多這還是你講的然後去前年前年你講的前年的11月你們針對這個造園投資專案造園投資專案這個也是國發會提的造園投資專案這個發想"},{"start":174.228,"end":189.935,"text":"設計這些都很好但是推動有很大的問題啊你到前年11月你就說已經受理兩件保險業者來申請那我就問啊我就問我們國發會說那是哪兩件啊"},{"start":190.755,"end":211.481,"text":"結果你們答覆我說一件事某一個私募基金就倉儲物流中心提出申請第二個你說某個建設公司就觀光養殖產業比方說漁業附加價值作業設施等等你說這個已經受理這兩件結果這兩件"},{"start":215.253,"end":235.755,"text":"那個副主委這兩件通通跟壽險業無關耶這兩件主導者的一個是虱目基金一個是那個建設公司他們兩家是不是另外會再去找壽險公司幫忙引進壽險回流的資金這不曉得"},{"start":236.926,"end":245.43,"text":"而且這兩屆加起來也不過兩百億也不過兩百億所以我結論我是要告訴你是說你們國發會"},{"start":251.162,"end":265.472,"text":"畫大餅很會啦做大餅一點都不會那個委員請你給我一點時間說明我們國發會在兆元投資方案裡面的角色第一個這個案件的確是我們國發會提出來的"},{"start":268.394,"end":286.265,"text":"那最重要的我們有三個策略主軸第一個是促參的這個案這個部分事實上他的主管機關是財政部所以包括促參障礙辦公室還有促參的創新機制跟促參的提高的用意我知道你念的那個部隊"},{"start":288.166,"end":291.05,"text":"都是我們那時候規劃基礎來的你們要上拜訓台又在那邊誇誇而談我是告訴你是說那你左邊推給財政部右邊推給金融會那你今天來幹什麼我們國發會是一個策略規劃的單位"},{"start":304.028,"end":316.235,"text":"如果涉及到 特定個案單位 至少你不要說謊啊我問你 我問你 受險業資金申請那你為什麼要欺騙立法院 欺騙立法委員我跟委員報告 你剛剛講的那個叫做基礎建設那個只是我們引導基礎建設不是國家建設嗎 是"},{"start":326.201,"end":348.601,"text":"可是之前它不是在受險業可以投資的範疇所以我們那時候就隨同的金管會修管理辦法把它納入到受險業可以投資的範疇所以您說的那兩岸是屬於基礎建設的範疇不是屬於公共建設的範疇那基礎建設是我們重新"},{"start":353.025,"end":380.804,"text":"你認為說基礎建設那個不在國家建設的範圍就對不是不是你說那個不在產業升級條例沒有包括在內原來受險資金是不可以投資基礎建設所謂的基礎建設跟公共建設的不一樣就是說公共建設它他們都有所謂的公共建設的性質可是它不是否你扯這個齁我只能告訴你說四個字"},{"start":383.846,"end":391.409,"text":"這早在財政部裡面這個早就已經修改好了啦如果 你告訴我說你的講法就是說國發會只負責畫餅不負責做餅你這樣給我答覆我們國發會負責規劃"},{"start":405.936,"end":406.777,"text":"所以沒有你下去規劃推動財政部他們就不知道該怎麼做就對了"},{"start":436.116,"end":452.572,"text":"所以你今天是上級指導單位所以國發會今天主委不用來就派你一個副主委來應付就對了因為我們是依照委員會的指派我們是副主委出席沒有指派我們主委出席你回去把這些法規什麼時候人家財政部金管會已經怎麼樣通例"},{"start":460.7,"end":471.57,"text":"我們可以跟委員詳細的說明他們也很積極的跟這些受險公司都已經鼓勵他們回來有具體的計畫給他們受險業資金35兆裡面有7成25兆"},{"start":479.437,"end":491.685,"text":"已經在海外曝險了我們一定要趕快讓他們回來回來就好來增加我們公共建設的資金來壯大我們國家好啦 謝謝委員我們會跟委員詳細說明那不要說謊喔不要又扯一些不會不會 我們覺得經得起考驗你那兩個案子就是說謊啊沒有說謊因為他以前是不准投資的"},{"start":509.577,"end":533.851,"text":"我現在請問你 那兩個案子是不是受險資金不是嘛 你明知道嘛他 我跟你說我們對 我們會允許就是受險業可以投資這些可是他是一個PC跟VE也是屬於受險業可以投資跟PE VC的他們投資的標的那兩個不是就對你在給我們的回答裡面你正式就打了這兩份"},{"start":534.831,"end":548.485,"text":"對我而言不是被你說成是那就是兩個字我們會再跟委員解釋請問請問你記得啦你就只會畫大餅啦那個時間暫停我請那個莊部長我們請莊部長"},{"start":557.513,"end":578.658,"text":"先前我們這個也講了大概一年促參的案件爭議頻傳那麼這些紛爭的解決我覺得因為如果我們沒有一個快速的處置方式的話這個訴訟程序曠日廢時而且耗費大量的行政成本這個影響整個促參法公益最大化"},{"start":580.114,"end":584.578,"text":"的這個目的所以當時我就要求我要求就是說是不是我們在促參案件裡面加入強制仲裁這個條款那時候你有答覆我你說法務部說不行說這個可能違憲結果我也真的就排隊就去問了法務部"},{"start":601.275,"end":628.066,"text":"法務部答覆說沒有啦他不是這個意思因為我跟法務部講啊我說如果出參法加入這個是違憲的話那我們現在公共工程我們政府發包的公共工程都有強制仲裁的條例耶那難道說所有公共工程都是違憲嗎所以我今天就是要正式告訴你說如果這個樣子法務部都同意了"},{"start":628.866,"end":651.33,"text":"同意以后 我有问过我们财政部财政部还是跟我说 我说法务部说同意 他没有说违宪你们财政部给我的答复竟然是说好 那你们研议所以我今天我要问你你们研议的结果怎么样当法务部都同意都放行了那你认为这应该怎么办"},{"start":652.383,"end":656.345,"text":"謝謝委員這個關注所以法務部在12月17號去年12月17號函附給我們了他就告訴我們說如果促參經過審酌公益性跟必要性的話那事實上可以審慎的納入強制仲裁所以對於這個部分我們會根據這樣的一個情況我們會把它研議然後會跟委員做報告我們的研議情況會跟委員做報告"},{"start":673.752,"end":698.926,"text":"因為畜産這些案件太可怕你知道嗎一年等於增加了18件128億元的損失就是說這些拖延的那觀光休憩設施最重要那個部分高達將近500億464億元是在觀光休憩設施而那些延至目前有的一拖拖十幾年那會影響我們國內以及我們對外招募國際觀光客"},{"start":699.326,"end":708.5,"text":"生意快速解決可以公共服務不中斷我想這是最主要的目的既然兩邊不和了那我們就快速解決強制重產好不好好 謝謝王委員"}]}},{"id":"166914","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166914","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f79b33ebfc106b84501bb1e1b9e929a61a2318d3e8cde50e92cdafff4c0ecf7955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:50:11 - 12:00:05","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T11:50:11+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T12:00:05+08:00","duration":594,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.92471875,"end":8.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.67096875,"end":8.704718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.72159375,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.130343750000002,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.345343750000001,"end":14.340968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.83034375,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.60471875,"end":31.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.789718750000002,"end":41.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.53096875,"end":41.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.94846875,"end":52.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.20096875,"end":46.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.14534375,"end":51.634718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.86659375,"end":58.907843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.726593750000006,"end":57.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.110343750000006,"end":60.375968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.40971875,"end":104.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.69346875000001,"end":80.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.64409375000001,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.44971875,"end":102.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.55034375000001,"end":114.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.99221875,"end":113.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.47284375000001,"end":119.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.72534375000001,"end":129.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.90096875,"end":141.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.34784375,"end":132.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.88659375,"end":151.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.58596875,"end":149.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.36596875,"end":161.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.47971875000002,"end":152.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.89284375,"end":155.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.08659375000002,"end":158.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.68909375,"end":177.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.87659375,"end":183.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.96846875,"end":184.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.04846875,"end":187.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.86659375000002,"end":196.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.65034375000002,"end":195.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.69221875000002,"end":199.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.35409375,"end":204.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.64471875,"end":209.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.41659375,"end":205.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.85471875000002,"end":210.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.41159375,"end":214.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.28846875000002,"end":215.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.23346875000001,"end":218.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.85784375,"end":218.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.86596875,"end":219.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.28346875000003,"end":226.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.51971875,"end":221.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.24034375000002,"end":226.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.69596875000002,"end":230.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.17221875,"end":253.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.49346875,"end":254.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.25284375,"end":255.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.26971875,"end":266.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.54346875,"end":258.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.09596875,"end":259.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.38659375000003,"end":262.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.94284375,"end":274.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.4984687500000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我請教育部張料萬監次長好 請次長吳衛仁好"},{"start":13.713,"end":40.78,"text":"市長好我想全國的教師都非常的關心我們教師的權益那不只是教師這也是家長跟學生所關心的因為教師的權益有得到保障也就是我們的教學品質有得到保障這也是為什麼過去從2016年到現在十年之間軍公教的薪資調整我們一共調了四次"},{"start":42.2,"end":45.702,"text":"在小英前總統任內調了3次去年賴清德總統也調漲了3%這10年來我們加總是增加了14%"},{"start":52.947,"end":80.318,"text":"那過去2008年到2016年之間只增加過一次但是我認為這個還不夠未來我們也應該要隨著我們的物價調整社會的狀況持續的來給我們軍公教的薪資來調升那除了薪資以外其實在教學的現場教師有很沉重的負擔所以說有教師逃亡這樣子的一個問題都存在"},{"start":81.238,"end":84.982,"text":"所以我們在 上一次我在院會總諮詢的時候也當場來跟院長情誼 也跟院長討論說我們針對我們基層教師在終點費 在導師費 在行政佳績上面希望要給他們提升所以我們教育部這一次做的調整提升也就是針對終點費導師費 行政"},{"start":105.601,"end":118.579,"text":"都來有所調升但是有收到很多教學現場的回饋也是今天要跟你們討論的第一個就是終點費我們的幼兒園的教保員"},{"start":119.795,"end":147.333,"text":"也非常的辛苦所以之前也有跟你們建議說導師費除了教師要來提升我們教保員導師費也要來增加這個我們什麼時候可以來實施上路啊對 剛才其實那個委員也有問我們會在這個月前開始盤點整個修要點完之後一樣追溯到這個去年的9月1號你們這個教保導師加給跟教保費的要點上次修113年嘛所以我們現在會再修訂對不對"},{"start":148.394,"end":161.591,"text":"所以我们预计教保员的导师费提升1000要点修完马上就要来上路这个请你们要尽快谢谢委员关心我们然后呢再来就是我们的这个行政"},{"start":163.105,"end":180.478,"text":"獎金 你們是用行政獎金 但當時我跟院長拜託的是行政加級所以我想要請教為什麼我們要另外去設一個行政獎金這樣的制度然後又設置了一個50班以上我跟50班以下你加的錢還不同 1000 1500校長 2000這個為什麼要設這個門檻"},{"start":188.13,"end":213.86,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們這個要幫行政人員加急來解決行政大逃亡這樣子的一個現象其實從大概好幾年前就開始兩三年前大概兩年前我知道說其實教育部就一直在跟行政院方面沒錯因為市長您過去也是民意代表你也很常在校園裡面走動你非常了解教學現場我們現在全國50班以上的學校有幾層"},{"start":215.959,"end":235.864,"text":"453校這佔了幾成大約一成多一成多代表你全國有幾乎九成的學校它是50班以下的對 50班以下我們也是有加級就是說其實我們剛剛委員其實問到一個很重要的我們一直比較沒有辦法突破的就是說"},{"start":236.684,"end":253.354,"text":"其實行政院這邊站在整體國家整體性的考慮他會覺得行政家級可能不是只有學校裡面有教育現場需要這個可能有很多其他的單位他們也會是不是也可以比照你教育部如果這樣可以的話學校可以的話我的單位也很忙這個"},{"start":254.515,"end":273.114,"text":"依據我對於教學現場僅限的了解我認為50班以上跟50班以下的教師他的行政工作其實都是沉重的我們既然要給教師行政我們認為教師應該專職嘛既然要有行政工作我們要給他們加級的話"},{"start":275.636,"end":281.76,"text":"我覺得喔 不要去設這個KPI我還要看你工作表現教學表現的品質是我們最重視的所以我們不希望行政在造成他們教學的負擔嘛這個我希望你們可以持續去跟持續去跟基層討論持續去跟基層討論好不好因為你設了50班的門檻50班以下 全國九成的學校都50班以下請持續跟基層討論再來還有一點 因為我們這次有回溯"},{"start":305.416,"end":330.844,"text":"這都是美意嘛因為我們希望既然要增加前面的也要把它加進去但是呢基層也反映也擔心啊會不會有增加很多行政的工作來我請教未來這個地方政府要交什麼資料給你們教育部可以拿到這個回溯的補助其實我們撥款重減要交什麼資料嗎重減嘛對不對重減然後讓地方那地方政府要學校交什麼資料給他們你們知道嗎"},{"start":331.624,"end":347.509,"text":"不知道 所以這個不只是尊重 拜託教育部要去跟地方政府也要求地方政府對學校的心思關於回溯這一點的行政也是從寬從簡只要是合法的 可以認定的 從寬從遠來認定這拜託你們要去跟地方政府做後續的關心"},{"start":352.091,"end":368.759,"text":"那這個關於偏鄉教師有一個事情要跟市長討論因為去年的時候有開過公聘會那我看到有學者給我們建議就是說其實很多學術界都希望對我們的偏鄉教育來做研究也是希望來幫忙我們教育部找出問題解決問題但是發現到我們對於偏鄉的這個資料第一個"},{"start":374.042,"end":401.728,"text":"資料庫不夠公開很多資訊找不到然後第二個沒有系統性的例如說我們對偏鄉的這個調查其實資料很多但是分散的我們偏鄉條例第19條就有明定這個這是你們的法定業務應該要來編列預算辦理調查研究作為政策調整的參考我請教一下我們現在對於偏鄉的教師的這個流動啊這個數字我們是多久做一次"},{"start":403.032,"end":427.36,"text":"我們每年都有 其實教育部的統計所以剛才我提到一個數據就是我們的流動率我們每年都在調查每一年來做調查我們才知道說我們偏鄉條例上路之後我們挹注資源增加援額然後鼓勵地方政府聘正式援額現在一連串的措施下來了這些資料在哪裡可以看得到我們可以有沒有公開我們沒有"},{"start":429.186,"end":445.814,"text":"這個學者的反應是沒有公開那連做研究的學者教育專家都找不到了何況是大眾所以呢 給你們一個具體的建議就是關於偏鄉這個教育的研究第一個要穩定然後你要持續性的做"},{"start":446.354,"end":466.59,"text":"然後要公開我們現在也是支援持續性的投入這個很重要所以我們也看到那個流動率持續性的在下降對然後呢在這個當中我們也看到了就是因為看你們的數字嘛我們在2017年的時候修偏鄉條例的時候當時有一個重點設計了偏鄉專聘教師結果專聘教師的數字現在是多少"},{"start":467.605,"end":494.535,"text":"零 零人嘛 這是你們統計的數字因為當年在修的時候我也是委員對沒錯 那麼過去這個專聘教師要由誰來招募是由地方政府還是學校 主要是由地方政府來招聘嘛來從我們訂定條 我們修了這條之後地方政府招聘了幾次大概有用了大概這麼多年來大概只用這個用了12個人"},{"start":495.922,"end":511.823,"text":"只招聘了12次只有新北跟嘉義有招聘過而且招聘之後報到的人數更是個位數其實後來後來其實他們都比較傾向用正式的缺正式缺還是比較有誘因"},{"start":512.584,"end":537.562,"text":"但是我們當時這個制度的設計也是希望在偏鄉地區的代理教師一個吸引他們第二個是給他們更好的環境所以我要講的就是說從你們在對統計的數字其實是可以給我們的政策的改進改善做很大的參考的所以第一個希望我們對偏鄉教育的這些調查"},{"start":539.784,"end":555.313,"text":"這個要確實然後資料公開第二個我們針對這個制度要依據你們調查的結果甚至學術界他們如果有調查的成果我們可以拿來做參考持續的去改進像這個偏鄉的專聘教師我想"},{"start":556.874,"end":579.608,"text":"這個0人那市長應該是不滿意啦要怎麼樣來改進呢改進就變正式的現在正式的區比較多那是一個方式但是偏鄉專聘教師這個制度如果要繼續存在的話一定要改善嘛不可能連年都是0人嘛這個要請你們持續的有些制度上可能也與時俱進比如說他可能在現在的用這個方法的比較少"},{"start":580.569,"end":593.833,"text":"那我們可以再精進再想如果有需要的話我們會再去改善他的那個誘因讓他能夠進來制度裡面變成解決問題的方法所以要精進嘛好 謝謝次長 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再而三這樣子的做更離譜的是什麼更離譜的事情是後來台銀人壽心安心"},{"start":306.61,"end":326.979,"text":"新安新保工商團體一年期綜合保險計畫2023版2月的DM說有理賠記錄的台銀人壽保留續保與否的權利加這個條款金管會認同嗎我想報委員因為這個非常非常細節的問題今天保險局局長有來嗎有"},{"start":330.047,"end":354.998,"text":"這個事情投訴到金管會你知道嗎因為對主委來講啦這些保護權益被侵害是很細節的問題啦主委沒有辦法關心到但這件事情我知道有投訴到金管會去我們自己公股的人壽公司做出這一種踐踏保護權益的事情保險局知道嗎"},{"start":357.007,"end":371.036,"text":"報告委員 這個案子是數年前的案件剛剛我有詢問我們同仁這個案件大概過去有一些處理容我們會後再了解後再跟委員做報告現在 他們怎麼欺負人啊那個保護 他要趕去平益中心他願意花那個勞力時間費用去平益中心才可以討到他個案的公道"},{"start":384.898,"end":405.715,"text":"有趣的可以找到公告但是這個是集團性的在侵害保護的權益所以才會到金管會去到金管會去檢舉了以後結果台銀人壽的業務部門阻止罹癌的同仁爭取副校因為之前不讓他保嘛"},{"start":406.84,"end":413.392,"text":"他要爭取復效結果台銀人壽竟然打壓自己的同仁在團體保險爭取復效111年金管會接獲檢舉"},{"start":418.151,"end":446.293,"text":"台銀人壽才不得不對該員的團體 副校與理賠這個是我說 金管會知道這件事情但是2022年的事情我為什麼在2026年的今天我在提出來質詢的理由是說不是只有這個人還有其他更多的人還有其他更多的人因為台銀人壽這種違法的作為權益遭受到了侵害"},{"start":447.723,"end":459.677,"text":"這是我今天提出來的質詢最重要的理由對於主委來講可能不是很熟悉也沒有關係我今天質詢我只希望做到兩件事第一件事情"},{"start":461.25,"end":490.274,"text":"當初台銀人壽違法踐踏這些保護的權益金管會接到檢舉了以後除了要台銀人壽把那個有接到檢舉投訴的幫他辦副校了以外針對有關於保險公司進行監理的時候採取了什麼處分採取了什麼措施懲處了哪些人請金管會會後回覆可以嗎沒有問題"},{"start":490.934,"end":514.434,"text":"第二個問題還有多少人還有多少保護類似相同的狀況權益被踐踏請台銀人壽提出完整的說明可以嗎沒有問題需要多久一個禮拜夠不夠應該可以一個禮拜以後請書面回覆我接到書面回覆了以後我們再從這邊繼續追下去好 謝謝"},{"start":517.422,"end":518.465,"text":"謝謝黃委員接下來我們請王順堅委員"}]}},{"id":"166912","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166912","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f4aa253278b6b352691c86f75780029905aa3b5816bd951ef78074bfe64d79d245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:45:38 - 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感謝召委 順暫的召委安排今天的主題讓我們有機會針對於這個醫療科技很多需要及時來反應的需求今天有機會來做一個詢答再請石部長請石崇良部長"},{"start":25.496,"end":40.572,"text":"部長部長好今天要審查這個組織法這個主改條文嘛所以大家很期待趕快能夠把這些處理好以後對於整體的衛福工作呢可以有更好的發展那我今天就針對這個主題有兩個議題來跟部長"},{"start":43.595,"end":62.485,"text":"來討論一下第一個就是醫療科技評估要納入新醫療技術他剛才也一定講一部分等一下再主委跟部長就教第二個就是也是我們召委很關心的兒少相關的事項那麼多有沒有機會把協調這兩個字也放進來等一下我們再跟部長討論一下"},{"start":63.766,"end":80.545,"text":"有關於醫療科技評估納入新醫療技術的部分我們也知道在我們就稱為Chapter好了這樣比較好說 要不不加醫療科技評估中心設施調理這個說下來就已經時間比較長那有關於Chapter這個中心的業務範圍"},{"start":81.866,"end":105.229,"text":"在第三條裡面規範很清楚那在第一款就說要發展與建立醫療科技評估的方法與指引那剛剛在蘇委員請教您的時候又把這個chapter本身的業務講得非常清楚那在立法說明裡面也針對藥品醫療器材手術處置健康政策跟系統等範疇"},{"start":106.67,"end":121.27,"text":"可是我們也了解現在醫療科技真的是進步太多它很有可能是很多種是夾雜在一起的所以現在分別來這樣調列的話對於未來的發展有沒有造成哪一些的影響我們其實是有點擔心"},{"start":123.132,"end":146.144,"text":"我們也知道新的醫療技術事實上醫事師有在處理這部分新的醫療技術如果需要在台灣進行人體試驗或者是要取得台灣的許可的時候事實上也有相關的條例在這部分它分成兩部分一部分它是會委託醫策會來進行所謂的行政事務的審查"},{"start":146.844,"end":167.259,"text":"那這個兩點包括這個屬性的判定另外就是審查的作業相關的這個處理需求那我就舉個例子因為我本身一直在看癌症那癌症其實最近的發展真的非常非常的快光一個放射治療本身就會可能牽扯到藥牽扯到醫療技術牽扯到手術將來這個要怎麼辦"},{"start":171.622,"end":197.004,"text":"是用現有的模式呢還是既然Chapter成立了有沒有機會把這個業務同時做好適當的整併以後未來才不會說我現在不知道我到底是要哪一個單位做適當的申請程序才能夠讓整個這個發展可以更為順利所以這邊有三個問題來請教一下部長第一就是醫療科技評估能不能把新的醫療技術"},{"start":199.447,"end":221.588,"text":"來弄作會而不是分開的什麼藥物啦手術等等的再過來這個新的醫療科技人體試驗到底是什麼人要來審查比較好第三項就是醫療就是Chapter目前如果人力增加以後的分組那怎麼樣來處理會是能夠因應未來Chapter整體的發展請部長"},{"start":222.568,"end":246.63,"text":"跟委員說明如果按照醫療法我們的心我們有三個心要做臨床試驗的一個是新藥一個是新醫材一個就是新醫療技術所以在醫療法確實是這樣分但是因為這個醫療科技評估如果要說法源的話它來自於健保法42條健保法裡面所分的就只有藥"},{"start":247.771,"end":274.636,"text":"跟服務一種是醫療服務一個就是藥品藥品包含醫材藥品跟這個醫材所以我們的給付是分這兩個所以他為了要搭配未來的給付所以這些醫療技術通常會歸在所謂的醫療服務項目所以我們在這個法規裡面寫醫療服務其實他就是就是一指的就是醫療技術但是現在確實像您剛剛提到的有一些放射治療"},{"start":275.456,"end":296.002,"text":"開始產生模糊了有些國家把這個放射治療當成是服務因為它不是只有那個放射源的問題它還有整個環境要調整所以它是一個醫療服務但是也有把它當成是一個新藥給它核准所以我們擠附的時候我們會傾向它可能是一個包裹式的擠附"},{"start":296.682,"end":317.071,"text":"因為你有一些人員要投入環境的設備要調整才能夠實施這一種新的醫療技術的治療所以大概但是未來這個一定也會在這個CHAPTA醫療科技評估中心的行政法人來做審查那至於人體試驗"},{"start":319.127,"end":344.447,"text":"因為這個是我們部裡面根據醫療法的授權法跟人體試驗管理辦法去擬出來的一些做法因為當時候只有醫測會那還沒有成立這個所以當然他的委託審查什麼會是在這個醫測會那未來到底要不要調整到這個新的這個Chapter我們可以來做討論"},{"start":345.956,"end":362.964,"text":"是啊 因為比如說現在3D列印的這個技術科技非常非常的發達嘛像牙科啦 或者是骨科他們很多的東西事實上是採取個人化這台保魂事實上是很符合你未來chapter如果能夠把這些相關業務給納進來的話對整體的發展來講應該會更為方便就更一條龍"},{"start":368.547,"end":393.533,"text":"是…不然我們的3D列印技術發展了2、3、4年一開始的時候都是領先全球現在就像我們剛才說的我們這個生育率啊這個人口少子化的問題好像有進步不過別人的進步比我們更快就很麻煩還有一個小問題其實不小的問題就是兒少相關的這個協調選擇入法的部分"},{"start":394.213,"end":411.625,"text":"因為在我們十月底的時候有跟院長做了希望能夠趕快讓這個兒童照顧可以更完整那兒童的整體的這些需求是真的很快得到回應所以決定要成立這個兒少跟家庭支持署"},{"start":412.265,"end":433.133,"text":"那在调整之前很多的工作事实上都是一些组就是属下面的组在做负责调整以后还是分为五个组那这个五个组里面我们很担心这组中来你要跨部会的协调那组长去跟大家协调的过程里面会不会碰到压力或者是碰到全职上比较困难的地方"},{"start":433.753,"end":449.126,"text":"所以有沒有機會在這個組織法裡面直接就像這個兒少及家庭支持屬裡面有關於規劃與執行托育照護的部分呢再多加兩個字就是"},{"start":451.288,"end":468.909,"text":"規劃執行與協調就是剛剛我們這個趙薇一直很擔心的如果把協調這兩年放進來至少數出去跟各個部會跨部會做處理的時候有它的方便性這樣的部分的修正不知道部長支不支持"},{"start":470.282,"end":484.789,"text":"當然我們本來的意識執行當中當然就包含協調執行一個業務如果涉及到跨單位的他就要去協調那為了成立這個署的目的也就是有一個專責窗口那本來就是要做這個事情所以如果要"},{"start":485.529,"end":510.669,"text":"加一個文字讓他更清楚我想也無妨啦本來就是這個執行過程當中需要跨單位的就去協調像托育照顧有時候他需要跟教育部去做協調那他這個就來做那早期療癒可能他有一部分涉及到健保的給付的問題他也要去協調這個當然是沒有問題好 那就麻煩部長好 謝謝謝謝委員指教謝謝趙偉"}]}},{"id":"166911","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166911","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468fae82b7acf13126a401bb1e1b9e929a615aa3b5816bd951ef42ffa54afed2a8c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"11:40:32 - 11:49:57","影片長度":"00:09:25","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-07","start_time":"2026-01-07T11:40:32+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T11:49:57+08:00","duration":565,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.742218750000003,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.273468750000003,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.610343750000002,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.36534375,"end":35.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.53159375,"end":38.235968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.84346875,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.57721875,"end":114.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.83409375000001,"end":98.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.90159375,"end":98.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.01971875000001,"end":99.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.07221875,"end":165.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.77971875,"end":122.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.38534375,"end":162.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.41846875000002,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.48596875,"end":166.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.02596875,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.05971875,"end":167.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.09346875,"end":177.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.94409375,"end":177.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.97784375,"end":196.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.25346875000002,"end":201.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.46784375000001,"end":228.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.75471875000002,"end":280.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.26471875000001,"end":233.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.13784375,"end":234.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.36284375000002,"end":252.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.21909375,"end":308.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.80096875000004,"end":284.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.06721875,"end":308.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.20221875000004,"end":308.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.32034375,"end":308.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.38784375,"end":337.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.68284375,"end":340.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.29846875000004,"end":343.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.01534375,"end":353.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.07284375,"end":353.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.34284375000004,"end":374.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.86971875,"end":357.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.19034375,"end":357.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.80784375,"end":410.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.47721875,"end":436.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.14409375,"end":463.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.92471875,"end":492.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.78784375000004,"end":476.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.93784375,"end":488.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.11034375,"end":513.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.3897187499999,"end":533.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.5834687500001,"end":516.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.94471875,"end":525.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.4253437500001,"end":527.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.0872187500001,"end":531.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.9897187500001,"end":562.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.23409375,"end":564.9722187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":11.814,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請次長林委員好"},{"start":20.427,"end":35.644,"text":"市长我们今天谈的是偏远地区学校教育发展条例当初这个立法的目的是为了确保孩子不应交通生活机能涉及条件不足而失去所谓的公平所教权但是我想先请教一个根本的问题"},{"start":36.601,"end":61.772,"text":"目前偏远学校的认定是否过度僵化是否能停留在传统偏乡的想象呢因为根据第四条的定义偏远地区的学校是指因交通文化生活机能数位环境社会经济条件等其他因素导致教育资源不足所以说公立高中高级中学以下的学校"},{"start":62.572,"end":78.33,"text":"照理來講這是一個功能性條件式的認定並非單純看縣市或地理位置但是回到我是基隆的選區那回到基隆市的狀況基隆市目前已經沒有任何一所學校被列為偏遠地區學校"},{"start":79.151,"end":100.678,"text":"但是最近這8年來 已經有太平 上智 粵梅國小因為學生數過低而停辦而八堵 上仁 馬林國小則經歷轉型之後才可以存續其中馬林國小目前的學生數只有90多人地處山區 交通不便 生活機能有限所以這邊就要請教次長"},{"start":102.859,"end":126.034,"text":"像基隆这类非传统偏乡县市但实质上存在教育资源弱势的区域学校是否有任何替代性或补充性的支持机制呢对我想各种这个偏乡条例当然它有定它认定的那个指标它其实是有在做滚动性的修正就是说从这个偏乡条例上路之后到现在呢"},{"start":126.454,"end":155.189,"text":"認定的指標也從9項調整為16項委員所提的像基隆也不是只有基隆市嘉義市新竹市包括台北市目前都沒有這個定義下的偏鄉學校但是如果比較屬於像有一種叫做非山非市它是屬於它不是偏鄉但是它也是屬於這種學生人數少然後資源比較少的部分其實我們在非山非市上面的補助也是有一些補助的計畫"},{"start":156.249,"end":177.681,"text":"所以这边是可以来申请的包括一些师资或者学生方面设备上都有那地方政府可以依据那样子的计划来申请我们会优先合宇谢谢市长那我也想请教说教育部是否愿意研议说加入教育资源弱势的区域的分级支持制度不是只有列入或不列入的而分法呢"},{"start":178.501,"end":200.976,"text":"我想我们那个条例上路之后事实上也跟地方政府也会半分区座谈那可能是因为基隆市它就没有偏向学校所以我们大概在开类似的会议的时候比较听不到他们声音那委员有在关心其实也可以鼓励基隆市政府也可以将区内比较属于类似的看有没有哪一些比较可以"},{"start":201.576,"end":228.357,"text":"有一些具体的数据的一些指标我们可以把它纳进去就算没有纳进去刚才有提到它不是偏乡条例所规范的学校但它是属于非山又非市就是说它也不像市区学校这么有资源或者说它又不是在山上偏远的地方它可能属于在海边基隆有一些海边它可能比较偏它需要一些资源我想这部分我们会来跟地方政府一起来协助"},{"start":228.797,"end":254.202,"text":"好 未来我会积极跟信用市政府来跟我们教育部来去做一些协调会或者一些整合那再来我想要谈到失职问题老实讲刚刚已经有很多委员提到了不过在少子化跟大缺失大缺工大缺失现在什么都缺的背景之下偏远地区首当其中但是我也必须在这边提出来台湾其实不是没有失职是制度留不住人"},{"start":254.962,"end":275.276,"text":"根据114年8月开学之前我们全国中小学原本还有差不多1430位的代理教师缺额但是到8月28号统计的时候全国公立的国民中小学的3300校的代理教师缺额差不多412名比8月25号的1430名已经降低七成"},{"start":281.36,"end":307.071,"text":"老實說這個讓人家有點疑惑啦學校整整在兩個月暑假之間反覆徵柴始終聘不到人的職缺如何在開學閒三天就能夠迅速補齊如果問題真的能夠這麼快速解決的話為何前線的學校長期承受人力壓力還存在當缺失的處理變成帳面化數字的變化的時候那偏鄉教育需要的恐怕我們還沒有被制度給證實到"},{"start":308.511,"end":337.236,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們一般學校的老師的那個簽調大概七月是處理正式老師那八月就是正式老師不足了他才開始去尋找這個代理教師那其實八月二十二你說那二十四號二十五號公布的那些為什麼會那麼多突然間變少是因為他的程序中所以他後來聘任完成他趕在九月一號八月底前聘任完成所以他就會急速下降三千三百所那現在三百多位兩百多位那"},{"start":337.856,"end":352.908,"text":"这个现象其实这个只是是历来是差不多这样并没有特别严重老师说我们都知道说现在老师尤其在偏乡除了教学之外还要兼行政跟校务那他们的实际工时其实超过8个小时"},{"start":353.448,"end":374.334,"text":"就算有加擠其實也難以反映說真正的負擔那我最近知道是說目前對於切師問題那政府採取的態度是放寬教師資格跟偏任標準只求有人能上課那這樣會不會對於我們的偏鄉的孩子們這樣的政策改動會不會造成二次傷害呢"},{"start":375.234,"end":404.31,"text":"我想最近这两三年整个教师的生态有一些改变譬如说代理教师他的那个给薪的原额变成全薪那他聘任的成本跟正式的老师差不多所以现在地方县市这种大量开缺包括偏乡地区也是一样所以我们在这个偏乡条例107年上路之后我们刚才也有统计也跟委员报告了到113年的时候它的流动率大幅下降其实是有的这统计的数字看得出来"},{"start":404.73,"end":410.579,"text":"他當然他的這個代理教室的比例也從大概平均三成左右降到25%左右跟一般"},{"start":411.57,"end":436.325,"text":"學校的代理教師的比例13到18%慢慢在接近他是有一些改變的但是還有不足的委員關心說還有很多學校特殊的個案裡面還是會有很多不足像剛才委員提到的像行政人力上他小校他要兼很多工作那事實上我們也因為這樣偏鄉條例裡面設計有區域教育資源中心我們每年大概每一個資源中心大概就是一個國中幾個小學我們以那個"},{"start":437.245,"end":463.061,"text":"很多縣市政府都以那個國中為一個單位設立一個區域教育支援中心為什麼 那個是一個任務編組就它可以同時整合這些國小老師的一些行政事務來支援那我們對偏鄉條例通過之後我們對這些區域教育支援中心一年大概也補助400萬到600萬那個人力是可以來調配給這些小校來運用來解決他們這個行政負荷過大的問題"},{"start":464.242,"end":489.12,"text":"其实为什么一直提到教师这一点就是我个人认为说偏乡教师的工作负担跟制度的设计其实对他们不管是对老师还是对受教者也好其实相对不利的那如何能够保持住品质但是如何能够让制度继续维持下去而且甚至说把一些我们看到的一些比较不足的地方透过这样的制度改善能够补齐"},{"start":489.62,"end":511.795,"text":"我想这就是我们教育我们教育关系的方向跟我们现在偏乡条例设立之后那我们很多委员关心的这个方向是一致的我们也是朝这个方向不要因为这个小校偏乡交通不利或者是这个未知的关系让这个孩子的学习受教学受到影响甚至还有一些数位资源的导入等等这些都是"},{"start":512.575,"end":533.508,"text":"时间不够不然的话我其实准备要问谢谢委员关心但是我认为说目前的制度那有种是并没有来得好只是说尴尬的点是说偏乡的孩子们他们是天生的弱势那其实我们这点大家都觉得很可惜那我们其实能够的话我们把制度修好一点然后希望教育部可以多照顾一点偏乡"},{"start":534.428,"end":559.069,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們條例上路之後111到114年大概開了23場的這個偏鄉分區的會議大概聽不同的學校不同的教育團體我們也聽取他們的聲音然後能改善的我們就立即改善沒有辦法改善的我們也會想辦法繼續來想辦法來協助地方政府對於偏鄉學校的資源落差人力不足來做一些補強的動作謝謝委員的關心 謝謝好 謝謝市長"},{"start":563.305,"end":563.849,"text":"好 謝謝您分享"}]}},{"id":"166910","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166910","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f87694c40252e0eec91c86f75780029905aa3b5816bd951ef0a92cda2594195eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:35:06 - 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謝謝主席有請我們衛福部我們石崇良 石部長好 請石部長中央委員好部長 我就問你就好啦不要叫我這麼多人其實剛剛啊國民黨委員的那個質詢啊那都胡說八道"},{"start":19.209,"end":40.578,"text":"我不會說 除了蘇清泉委員講的因為他生了四個小孩所以我給他加冕一下不然 人口每一個國家都希望維持一個人口的穩定所以不說人口要維持一個替代率多少 2.1% 2.12.1從哪裡 台灣哪裡就已經低於2.1了從1983年 人口維持的替代率那個時候就已經低於2.1了"},{"start":48.888,"end":51.417,"text":"到馬英九的時候2010年的時候他說 啊 慘了"},{"start":54.127,"end":81.392,"text":"台灣少子化會國安危機這馬英九在2010年提出來然後 到了哪裡呢提出來這個口號以後啊 毫無對策啊是到了2018年啊蔡英文總統上來以後啊才制定了 請國安會訂定一個國家少子化的一個政策綱領這為大家說得對那政府一直去做但是呢 有沒有成效看不到"},{"start":82.492,"end":97.367,"text":"看不到 如果要講人口政策 你就問我 我很會講英文都沒有補 如果真的要有補我建議大大說 我衛福部長石崇良 現在宣佈你如果生小孩 我一個人給你一百萬看能不能增加一百萬人"},{"start":98.772,"end":103.797,"text":"你看看王正旭笑眉眉,他生兩個,我不是你生幾個啊?你生兩個,我告訴你,生幾個,那是合盤疑問的啦。你要生,你不要就不要生啦。你說什麼現在叫做生不如死,太生不如死。現在的社會經濟狀況都比過去還要好。以前你如果不生孩子,社會上會給你壓力。孩子生一生之後,有阿公阿嬤會幫你倒床。"},{"start":124.131,"end":128.916,"text":"以前多生一輩子,我們就多生一雙小孩,小孩就算了,像我們這樣小孩子,也沒有人管了啦我們在整個村子,大家說好了,你知道嗎?整個村子大家都生四個我們在上一輩的時候,還七個耶所以,社會越進步啦,人越獨立啦那尤其,以前墮胎,那是大件不重要的事情到最後,墮胎也合法化了"},{"start":147.795,"end":151.899,"text":"大家都越來越獨立了你現在要叫孩子生我看你們會制定什麼樣的一個政策我看是很困難啦但是呢我確實是少子化真的是一個國安的一個危機啦不然你人也越來越少啊我們長照對老大一直照顧那個本地都要照顧的啊但是生小孩這一代"},{"start":168.672,"end":173.473,"text":"你也不能逼啦 要怎麼制定法律叫大家要去生外來接觸的人連結婚也沒有結婚 對不對不要說小孩子啦可是沒有生小孩的人他也感受到沒有小孩對國家來長期的一個發展來講的話那確實是一個很大的一個危機啦這個 我不敢想跟你們說要用什麼保守啦但是啦 你確實是踏入一切 他也不可以生啦"},{"start":197.526,"end":200.749,"text":"越好好的之後,他不跟你生了,他覺得不跟你這樣,是一隻寵物,他也覺得很開心啊,不需要有那個負擔,不需要付那麼多責任,不需要生孩子,少子化有太多太多的一個因素了,尤其社會去做改變了,但是呢,政府都束手無策,這也不行。"},{"start":220.469,"end":223.732,"text":"我們很多政策都怕人家罵 站出來而已你知道嗎我們很多政策都是怕外界罵然後我們提出來真正有沒有用"},{"start":231.584,"end":245.455,"text":"你也知道 我也知道看數字就知道 都真的沒有用也還好有那些政策沒有那些政策的話 搞不好崩得會更快再想一下但是我還是要來就教幾個問題就是說國建署最新的統計很快兩位台灣人裡面 請我一位"},{"start":256.021,"end":260.482,"text":"體重都差不多超標的所以為什麼現在很多人在找那個有效的減肥的方法傳統的吃下去之後 哇 少吃都說快人少吃 多動 太慢了現在有瘦瘦症對不對但是啊我看到特別看到這個什麼叫猛健樂這個新藥因為衛福部要核准之後可以來做減肥之後市場簡直是殺紅了眼本期是比較擔心的就是說其實消費者的心態很簡單"},{"start":285.99,"end":291.354,"text":"他追求比較 呃 強效 安全 喔 雖然價錢比較貴擔保安他也要覺得有好就好啦可是呢 我們也發現很多 愛護部要特別去注意到的就是說好多的亂象 你像比如說團購 喔 吃團購 也有陷阱我看LINE也有啦 臉書也有啦 喔 盤商這裡喔 員工這裡喔這個價格來源是什麼 我們也不知道 這第一個第二個就是說 啊不然就整頓把它拆裝變零售 四季的料 喔 啊 就"},{"start":315.451,"end":325.739,"text":"就把單季的價錢壓低這個都有潛在的膽膽的風險另外最怕擔心的是境外的將進來的像譬如說我們中國那邊就縮小一點同樣的成分價格只有十分之一"},{"start":330.402,"end":338.631,"text":"我很擔心這個 我不知道部長你看到這樣的一個亂象 亂象問題是說要給糖尿病的人要應援 要不然大家覺得這好談呢我看很多醫生 大家都聊下去不曉得部長你的看法怎麼樣 有一點失序啦對 確實從整個銷售量的成長"},{"start":353.846,"end":368.285,"text":"過去這五年從一年不到十萬劑十萬針到去年已經超過一百萬確實我們看到這個量的增加太可怕所以有幾個事情我們會強化的第一個這個"},{"start":371.128,"end":386.953,"text":"這個是一個處方藥啦所以沒有拿到台灣的藥證那個就是偽藥 那個會重罰所以這個一定是從安全的角度第一個先切入沒有達到藥證在賣的像中國版的這個就是偽藥這個我們會重罰我們會來強化這個稽查"},{"start":390.894,"end":405.433,"text":"那第二個這個藥本身是醫師的處方要有醫師的處方才可以買所以不可以隨便亂賣所以團購也好或者是隨便到什麼地方就可以買得到那個都是違法的他一定要有"},{"start":406.614,"end":422.852,"text":"賣的人要有藥商的資格那麼要有買的人要有一絲的處方才可以所以我們會來強化這個管理所以博丁我要講的就是說這一個監管有一點慢半拍就像你講的市場確實已經失序了"},{"start":423.753,"end":435.098,"text":"這個真的要非常小心啦你醫療科技當然會進步但是如果你缺乏有效的監管的市場機制底下你上游開始走私啦經濟不知道啦中游到去排擠到整個病患的一個權益再到下游這個地方又有感染這樣的一個風險我特別特別的提醒衛護部這個部分真的要加把勁啦好不好好 我們會來加強管理"},{"start":448.504,"end":471.861,"text":"那另外今天我們整個衛福部我們今天在排審這個組織法裡面我倒有一個想法就是說你這個成立專責機構以後你預算跟跨部會的整合資源你要去有效的到位啦有效的一個到位啦你譬如說我們目前兒童跟少年相關的預算你現在GDP多少幾%2%而已你OECD的部門是說要幾%要6%所以這個部分"},{"start":476.544,"end":492.213,"text":"這個如果說你只是說多一個組織啊 只把既有的資源去重新分配我看這樣你也達不到效果啦你自己組織起來之後你如果沒有資源在相對的一個到位的話你達不到你想要的效果啦"},{"start":492.973,"end":507.081,"text":"還有大家在講的 我聽了好幾位委員在談到的 也是有點道理的就是說你這個組織裡面的位階 你等於三級機關那是不是承受得了那種高度的一個跨部位的協調的一個任務啊這個部分喔 特別特別要去注意啦我看我們這個兒少福利跟權益保障法裡面的規定裡面那個任務行為是保生保害 你知不知道"},{"start":518.408,"end":532.46,"text":"跨部會 跨院好多好多的地方我們確實是對於整個跨部會整個的問題跟人力的一個擴編這部分我們希望這個組織法我們來幫忙以後你們也同步要去做一個落實"},{"start":533.801,"end":551.507,"text":"跟委員報告確實這個人跟錢要同時到位啦所以我們有這個組織之後把它專責起來之後我們的人力也會希望增加啦不然那個預算就在膨大也要有人執行啦這幾年這個預算增加這麼多可是原額上也沒有什麼成長所以我們也趁這個機會"},{"start":553.288,"end":571.313,"text":"成立一個三級機關讓這個人力可以成長那同時更專業跟專責來做擬定對策計畫再去有計畫那就預算才能夠去爭取那才能夠去落實執行所以這個是會結合起來做當然跨"},{"start":572.333,"end":591.834,"text":"跨部會的協調永遠都是我們現在面臨到的問題都很複雜像食安問題也是跨部會的我們也不會因為只是一個食安署食藥署就沒有辦法做這些事情所以這個平台上我們有各種不同的機制跨部會的合作我們部裡面的協調的委員會"},{"start":595.077,"end":603.967,"text":"或者是在行政院層級的 也都有相對應的平台來做看報稅的事情好啦 換你支持 做出好成績啦 好不好 好 加油謝謝委員 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屠君怡副處長"},{"start":1862.964,"end":1873.548,"text":"公共工程委員會徐偉俊專委原住民組委員會科學院專委還有行政院主席總處李培源專委謝謝你們"},{"start":1878.621,"end":1886.906,"text":"那我們其他的其他我就不再主義介紹介紹差不多了那請參閱這整個名單不再主義介紹並列入公報記錄那本次的議程我們討論事項的排定是病案的審查請這邊函請審議衛生福利部組織法第二條第五條第八條條文修正案相關法案一共有六案那今天其實"},{"start":1907.78,"end":1934.922,"text":"很感謝我們醫師人員我看昨天很晚的時候還在做對照表也非常辛苦我們現在來一併進行個案的提案說明及報告先進行提案說明我們發言時間就三分鐘了依道場委員的先後秩序我們先請提案人盧憲一委員來做提案說明"},{"start":1944.848,"end":1961.214,"text":"謝謝昭緯我的提案最主要是說針對偏鄉的部分我們知道衛福部從102年成立以後我們的三地離島一直是在一個護理及健康照護士科的底層來做事"},{"start":1962.995,"end":1992.259,"text":"那我覺得這個偏鄉的專責單位我覺得一直都沒有成立尤其是我們2012年原建法通過以後它第二條有說中央主管機關應該指定專責單位辦理原住民主健康事務結果很遺憾這次我們的排定裡面還是沒有看到我們原住民的專門的一個單位我們希望能夠增設原住民主健康照顧署來跟兒家署 照發署針對這次的期程能夠完成"},{"start":1992.859,"end":2015.039,"text":"最主要的原因就是我們的平均移民還是落差在7.54歲然後我們的文化安全的獨特跟地理特殊性以及跨領域的資源整合實在是需要一個專責單位來努力所以我們這次也是針對這個組織法的第二條 第五條 第八條做修正草案期待能夠增設原住民主健康照顧署"},{"start":2015.539,"end":2040.604,"text":"那最主要的理由除了那些以外和我們的健康的一些原住民的健康的data散落在各個部會裡面沒有辦法來好好的來利用還有一些我們的經費的一個整合因為我如果只單靠原民會或者是這個3D理導科原住民組理導科我覺得是沒有辦法來呈現或者是說來"},{"start":2041.784,"end":2065.763,"text":"真正的來處理我們原住民族的健康問題因為實在是落差太大我們常常會覺得是原鄉是我們本島中的離島如果從恆春半島 蘭嶼或者是花東這個區塊我們就很難去從那個科的層級來處理這個事情所以我就做了第二條 第五條 第八條的法律象徵案以上 謝謝"},{"start":2071.823,"end":2076.844,"text":"好 謝謝盧先英委員接下來請王玉敏委員來做提案說明好 謝謝昭偉我想今天我們來審衛福部的組織法其實具有前瞻性跟未來性的意義第一個就是我想有關於兒少的議題非常多團體非常的關心這也是我過去長期以來關心的領域"},{"start":2099.568,"end":2119.68,"text":"那我們知道這個兒童局在102年被裁撤之後呢事實上兒童的業務就散落在這一個社家署還有保護服務司然後其他的單位當中那這樣子一個零散化事實上我們沒有辦法針對兒少的政策有一個統整的規劃"},{"start":2120.66,"end":2137.09,"text":"它橫向的整合其實也往往看到沒有一個有效的整合那加上現在我們看到這個少子化的問題真的是非常的嚴峻這個到11月為止我們整個新生兒人數只有98,785人如果加上12月"},{"start":2142.173,"end":2156.269,"text":"不知道現在部長有沒有掌握到最新的數字如果12月數字加起來恐怕是連11萬人都有困難那這樣的一個大幅下降的一個少子化的危機也已經是國安危機"},{"start":2157.11,"end":2179.228,"text":"所以我覺得整個政府我們應該要因應未來的挑戰因此這次的主改我覺得它是有一個很大的意義那當然我們也賦予很大的期許就希望這樣的主改不是為了改而改而是真的它所有的組別跟功能跟未來的人數都能符合我們兒少福利的需求"},{"start":2179.648,"end":2184.814,"text":"包括現在兒少所面對的很多的挑戰他的心理健康問題 自殺的問題還有他們在網路成癮的問題還有這個相關的電子菸然後氾濫"},{"start":2194.765,"end":2212.816,"text":"然後它這個吸食菸品的問題等等都有非常多未來的挑戰但是目前看到的這個主改還沒有看到很詳細的一個規劃只有大致的組別那我們是希望這個過程當中要去多聽取一些兒少組織的意見就是希望可以再召開這個公聽會聽取大家的意見然後做一個最好的組織的調整"},{"start":2222.142,"end":2246.608,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望是這樣另外在行政院層級應該要增設一個二級的兒少事務委員會就是針對真正跨部會的整合也要有一個更上級的單位來因應那另外這次主改裡面我們看到有一個是關於中醫藥研究所要改制為行政法人的部分這個部分本席也有相對提案我是非常的贊成我想"},{"start":2247.828,"end":2268.301,"text":"這個前不久我才帶隊衛環委員會去考察了我們的中醫藥研究所事實上看到在疫情期間我們的新冠1號其實發揮了非常強大的一個防疫的效能所以我們整個中醫藥的發展應該未來改制成行政法人之後要讓它有足夠的量能然後讓台灣的我們的這個中醫藥未來的發展"},{"start":2271.223,"end":2282.708,"text":"可以就是在亞洲地區我們建立起我們的專業跟領導的地位所以關於這一部分的主改我有相對的提案也請大家共同來支持以上 謝謝好 謝謝王玉明委員接下來請林倩琪委員來做提案說明"},{"start":2298.106,"end":2315.3,"text":"好 謝謝我們主席莊昭偉府會同仁本席在提出衛生福利部組織法第二條 第五條 第八條修正草案的核心精神最主要是讓國家的衛生福利治理的結構能夠跟上我們人口的結構變化跟族群健康不平等的現實"},{"start":2316.961,"end":2335.702,"text":"我們進入超高齡社會同時也面臨了少子女化長期照顧需求也很快速的上升在兒少跟家庭支持體系也越來越複雜現行衛福部的業務分工比較難回應目前這些跨領域 跨世代的政策需求"},{"start":2336.463,"end":2359.465,"text":"因此本案透過來調整第二條業務執掌跟第五條的次級機關設計來強化長照兒少及家庭支持等政策的專責化與治理效率本案在本席聲明所提的跟行政院版本最重要也最關鍵性的差異在於援助民族健康制度的一個設計"},{"start":2360.666,"end":2375.646,"text":"那麼長期以來原住民在醫療的可靜性還有平均餘命跟慢性疾病負擔和心理健康的面向都明顯的落後全體國民那這也不是個別計畫可以來補救的一個問題"},{"start":2376.847,"end":2398.913,"text":"而是結構性的健康不平等本案明確的將原住民族健康的業務自一般性的衛生業務裡面獨立出來然後設立原住民族健康照護署來賦予其專責的統籌政策規劃跟執行的法定地位這最主要是來落實我們原住民族健康法立法精神很關鍵的一步"},{"start":2399.873,"end":2414.986,"text":"那麼這樣子的設計不是只有組織來調整而是國家應該藉此來向原住民族清楚的表態原住民族健康不是附屬的議題而是必須要被制度性長期性對待的一個核心公共"},{"start":2415.646,"end":2437.668,"text":"政策那對於整個原住民在健康跟這個平均餘命的一個落後我想透過這樣一個機制比較可以很務實地趕上所以以上的說明敬請各位同仁來支持讓這次的修法能夠來縮小健康落差然後落實族群平等的制度謝謝"},{"start":2441.727,"end":2447.984,"text":"謝謝林委員 接下來請羅廷偉委員來做提案說明"},{"start":2454.943,"end":2480.601,"text":"好非常感謝召委我想今天在審我們這個衛生福利部我們現在的組織法第二條第五條第八條的條文修正草案台灣正面臨人口結構的雙重危機高齡化與少子化同步正在加劇使得長照體系一直承受前所未有的壓力我想我們大家都感受得到照顧人力的一個短缺同時少子化趨勢逐漸的惡化當中"},{"start":2483.263,"end":2500.214,"text":"兒童及少年的健康促進以及福利的保障我覺得在這個時切更顯得要去關注面對這場人口的危機現行衛生福利部組織架構已經無法有效的去因應所以通盤調整所屬機關職長刻不容緩"},{"start":2503.556,"end":2529.228,"text":"再一次我們在這一次的條文修正我們希望能夠來支持衛生福利部兒少及家庭的一個支持署他們這樣子的一個組織法草案以及衛生福利部長期照顧及社會發展署的一個組織法草案我想這四案當中藉由組織的再造予成立長期照顧以及社會發展署兒少及家庭的支持署整合資源"},{"start":2530.688,"end":2551.421,"text":"強化的量能從組織根本來解決現在當前的一個困境另外癌症已經連續多年位居國人十大死因之首新藥可敬性以及給付效率逐漸的提升我們也希望它能夠再更加緊腳步"},{"start":2552.401,"end":2566.567,"text":"本席同時我們希望能夠來排審這一個國家醫療科技評估中心的一個設置條例草案以行政法人的一個形式來設置國家醫療科技評估中心"},{"start":2567.901,"end":2585.828,"text":"能夠來建立我們的專業獨立的一個醫療科技評估機制結合真實的一個世界數據相關的一個證據來建構新藥優先排序制度讓癌症新藥基金給付能夠無縫接軌"},{"start":2586.568,"end":2612.268,"text":"提升評估的一個效率加速病患來取得創新藥物的一個時程來完善我國癌症治療的一個整體保障體系一起加油也希望我們不分藍綠白我們大家一起為國人的健康福利來努力謝謝好 謝謝羅委員接下來請林瑞琴委員來做提案說明"},{"start":2626.837,"end":2640.051,"text":"主席各位委員以及所有關心衛福部組織改造跟專責機構成立的夥伴們大家好那針對本次衛福部改六法的一個修正草案我給予衛福部"},{"start":2641.261,"end":2660.07,"text":"高度的肯定 其中我特別關注的是兒少及家庭支持署的成立過去幾年來兒少專責機構的建立事實上是民間許多倡議團體的期盼今天這個聲音總算被聽進去了因為等了13年的時間之久"},{"start":2661.811,"end":2678.363,"text":"兒童跟少年事實上是國家發展的基石家庭更是社會最核心的一個組成我們必須落實兒權公約的精神以及社會投資的概念在國民生活歷程的早期發展階段投入充足的資源"},{"start":2679.202,"end":2706.681,"text":"協助兒少健全成長幫助家庭輕脂復能並且建構友善的成長環境我特別想要強調的是新的專責機構必須發揮跨部會協調跟整合的核心功能期待透過本次的組織改造我們能達成事權統一建立完整的支持體系確保從孕產期育兒階段到青少年智力政府的服務鏈應該是連續且"},{"start":2708.402,"end":2737.587,"text":"不中斷的此外我的版本裡邊我也進一步參照兒權公約的精神所在在權責掌理事項中明確納入兒童權利影響評估並明定身心健康事故傷害防治數位安全跟隱私以及兒少智力支持等業務範疇藉此符合兒少實務需求那組織改造不是只有換招牌而是要透過制度化來提升韌性"},{"start":2738.228,"end":2747.859,"text":"確保每個孩子都能在國家保護網下健全成長因此這項修法是落實國家希望工程的關鍵一步我懇請各位委員同仁一起支持 謝謝"},{"start":2750.302,"end":2760.631,"text":"好 謝謝林月琴委員那提案說明也很多那本席也有提案 我就不要搞瘋了大家其實都有志一同我們現在就來請機關代表來做報告發言時間三分鐘請衛生福利部石崇良史部長"},{"start":2776.105,"end":2795.835,"text":"主席還有各位委員很榮幸受司法及法制還有我們社福未還委員會的聯席會議的邀請來做本次衛生福利部組織法調整相關法案的報告"},{"start":2796.255,"end":2805.045,"text":"那麼進行各位委員不定指教那衛福部是在102年成立那麼整合了衛生跟福利的業務那麼共有86處7個任務編組跟6個所屬的機關"},{"start":2811.392,"end":2824.108,"text":"今年因為長照業務的擴增所以在107年的時候修法成立了長照師以及口腔健康師從心口師來做兩個的分離"},{"start":2829.474,"end":2857.85,"text":"但是面臨著高齡化跟少子女化的挑戰那麼仍然有需要做更大幅度完整的調整來面對未來的挑戰以及社會的高度的期盼因此我們這一次的組織調整共成立了兩個新的署同時兩個行政法人機構第一個是成立兒少級家庭"},{"start":2858.61,"end":2877.503,"text":"支持署來整合兒少的相關業務包含兒童少年的福利保護安置還有兒童兒少的健康促進早期療癒跟家庭支持等服務把兒少機構的管理也納入在兒家署"},{"start":2878.143,"end":2895.735,"text":"那麼來做從前端的預防到健康的促進到後端的保護處置都有同一個單位來掌理那麼完善整個兒童的健康及福利的照顧鏈那麼第二個是新成立長期照顧及社會發展署"},{"start":2896.075,"end":2919.202,"text":"那麼我們是在一百零四年通過這個長符法在一百零七年成立的長照師但是長照業務能善在在不同的師屬所以這一次將長照診病同時併合老人福利身心障礙福利婦女福利跟國民年輕業務來做一個完整的這個長照服務的輸送體系跟社會的發展支持"},{"start":2919.922,"end":2936.156,"text":"第三個是成立兩個行政法人分別是國家醫療科技評估中心跟國家中醫研究院來協助相關不論是在政策的評估健保給付前的"},{"start":2936.936,"end":2947.964,"text":"科技評估或之後的再評估來確保健保給付的效益同時也讓人力人才的螺絲更具彈性發展其專業其次對於"},{"start":2953.687,"end":2972.993,"text":"過去的配合這一次的這兩個署跟兩個行政法人的設立我們也同時調整了本部跟所屬機關的一些業務的重整希望未來能夠提升這樣的行政效能那麼再請各位委員給予支持跟指教以上報告"},{"start":2975.885,"end":2984.376,"text":"好 謝謝石崇良 石部長接下來請行政院人事行政總署我們政務副人事長張秋元副人事長來做報告"},{"start":2991.809,"end":3013.262,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早安今天大院的司法法制與社會福利及衛生環境委員會舉行聯席會議來審查行政院函請審議的衛生福利部組織法的第二條 第五條及第八條的修正草案"},{"start":3014.142,"end":3033.03,"text":"以及衛生福利部兒少及家庭支持署的組織法的草案衛生福利部長期照顧及社會發展署組織法草案衛生福利部中央健康保險署組織法第二條的修正草案以及"},{"start":3034.731,"end":3050.168,"text":"國家醫療科技評估中心設置條例草案國家中醫研究院的設置條例草案並且安排病案審查各委員的相關提案本總處今天奉邀列席"},{"start":3051.209,"end":3078.74,"text":"非常榮幸也感謝大院的邀請那以下請就涉及本總書業務部分提出說明那這次衛生福利部就如同剛剛石部長提到他從102年的這個上一次的組織改造成立到現在已經超過了10年那這段期間社會的這個變遷非常的快速那國民對衛生福利業務的這個期待"},{"start":3079.761,"end":3081.368,"text":"也有深深的期許"},{"start":3086.133,"end":3107.242,"text":"這次的調整也為了要擴大醫療科技的評估技術的發展應用剛才王議員有提到中醫藥研發能力我們也希望在這個領域我們國家能夠有一個領先的地位所以這次為何不在現有的三級機關的數據總數不變的前提下"},{"start":3111.004,"end":3127.146,"text":"把整個業務做一個重新的整合跟事權統一的方向去做調整把部本部跟所有機關的業務執掌整個重新再做一個整理用這樣的方式來提升組織運作的效能"},{"start":3127.666,"end":3154.033,"text":"那這次的這個相關的法案行政院送審的部分已經在行政院這邊經過相關的會審的機關的審議那也通過行政院院會然後送到大院來審議那也拜託各位能夠支持那等一下如果有這個法案的主條審查委員如果有推詢的部分我們總處在"},{"start":3155.033,"end":3162.359,"text":"來做相關的說明並且尊重大院審議的結果以上報告敬請各位員指教 謝謝其餘提出書面報告機關有沒有口頭來做補充"},{"start":3172.011,"end":3197.41,"text":"好 沒有 好 謝謝那機關代表報告完畢了相關書面的內容請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄那提案說明跟機關報告已經進行完畢我們現在開始要來進行巡打那今天是兩個委員會聯席的會議共計 總共20倍 巡打人數比較多"},{"start":3198.07,"end":3209.036,"text":"那今天台灣討論的時候還有很多機會可以來做充分的表達意見所以今天就沒有辦法來給大家太長的時間那本聯席會的委員那非本聯席會的委員"},{"start":3214.519,"end":3216.32,"text":"上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員來做尋討"},{"start":3241.201,"end":3244.508,"text":"有啊 非本聯席會委員就是三分鐘而已謝謝主席 麻煩有請石部長有請石崇良部長"},{"start":3256.679,"end":3285.434,"text":"黃委員早部長 時間的關係我們就迅速的進行為了提升兒少的權益要成立兒家署正這個方向上面本席竟表贊同但我現在關心的事情是我們未來到底還會有多少兒少我之前說少子女化辦公室是騙局一場結果行政院派一個發言人出來說有啊 我們有成立有成立非常好"},{"start":3288.025,"end":3306.936,"text":"黨團發函去你們衛福部要你們把少子女化辦公室成立了半年所有的資料都交出來 到現在不交現在衛福部是怎麼樣官威很大嗎要你們交資料不交 可以這樣嗎今天下班以前送來有沒有問題"},{"start":3308.717,"end":3337.777,"text":"跟委員報告我們確實沒有成立這個少子女化對策那奇怪啦為什麼行政院說有啊你說沒有現在誰講的是對的在院承集的話他有這個少子女化對策來來來來來來你們行政院發言人說呢說外服部有成立少子化辦公室這不是我說的啊你現在說沒有奇怪了"},{"start":3339.249,"end":3367.911,"text":"怎麼一個政府單位說詞上面下面不一樣來 你再說一次衛福部有沒有成立少子化辦公室有還是沒有在我們數的時代 部的時代是沒有2017年4月12號有沒有成立我在我的印象裡面沒有成立沒有成立 好 講得非常的好今天衛福部的部長公開打臉行政院說謊說謊正式回函給我"},{"start":3369.292,"end":3392.665,"text":"下班以前回函給我有沒有問題這個沒有問題 你就回函給我說從來沒有成立過所以黨團要的資料我們無從提供因為從來沒有成因為根本沒有提供從來沒有成立過這樣就好了嘛下班以前書面回覆可以嗎本部確實沒有成立沒關係下班以前書面回覆可不可以可以可以好來再來第二個問題竟然啊"},{"start":3396.687,"end":3406.325,"text":"我們頒發機優的督導濫用權限去性侵未成年少女這個案子發生在高雄市遮掩了這麼久"},{"start":3407.748,"end":3428.939,"text":"遮掩了這麼久現在被挖出來了以後竟然什麼鬼藉口全部都找出來了我看了令人髮指啊結果他還是GU的督導到底是GU在哪裡啊當初這個獎是怎麼評的是怎麼頒的我非常的困惑我非常的困惑"},{"start":3430.667,"end":3445.432,"text":"這個G.O.督導的制度當初是誰評的竟然把G.O.督導當給一個濫用權限 性侵未成年少女的我無從理解我關心的事情是"},{"start":3446.873,"end":3473.293,"text":"這個GU的督導什麼時候要撤銷我昨天發文去問我一直等到晚上9點你們含附我內容你們說會溯及的撤銷來 撤銷GU督導這件事情什麼時候做的1月6號我們正式發文是 撤銷是什麼時候做的就是撤銷1月6號1月6號什麼時候撤銷的"},{"start":3474.673,"end":3500.403,"text":"晚上九點發文給我的時候撤銷的嗎有經過任何會議程序嗎我們公文是昨天發啦對公文是昨天發不過那個什麼時候撤銷的就昨天昨天撤銷的經過什麼會議程序沒有會議程序我們就跟對我們就根據在這個沒有關係啦沒有會議程序所以你決定把它撤銷嗎那個跟委員報告我們的這個"},{"start":3505.848,"end":3531.929,"text":"講的這個實施辦法裡面其實有一個第九點沒有關係啦所以是誰決定撤銷的我問題只有這樣嘛就是由部來決定撤銷所以是你決定撤銷的嘛這樣子做為就有擔當了嘛就是我部長決定我昨天就下令撤銷這樣就好了嘛這麼簡單的問題但我現在很困惑啊衛福部做得到怎麼經濟部做不到"},{"start":3533.611,"end":3559.707,"text":"經濟部搬給一個優良公務員一個涉入台南光電弊案導致綠色權貴不法利益高達90億我一直問經濟部那個優良公務員什麼時候可以撤銷經濟部藉口多了這個我們要等到法院判決確定才可以決定要不要撤銷"},{"start":3561.294,"end":3589.134,"text":"我今天在這邊公開講啊經濟部部長看看石崇良部長的表現看看石崇良部長的表現這才叫有破例嘛該撤銷就撤銷了還等到法院判決確定丟人現眼 官官相護啊但下一個問題啊來了狼社工查詢平台還要多久你說要研議我給你時間研議還需要多久"},{"start":3589.952,"end":3611.199,"text":"我們一個月內把他一個月內好一個月內大家都聽到了下一個問題霸凌案賴總統卓院長為霸凌案道歉我之前在追衛福部的高官在霸凌結果呢結果高高舉起輕輕放下高高舉起輕輕放下叫人家坐深蹲"},{"start":3612.506,"end":3635.689,"text":"用言語霸凌人家結果前部長跟我說他是高規格調查然後你們的政務次長呂健德吧非常傲慢啊護航到底啊護航到底啊現在連被台灣社會啊譏諷為專門打蒼蠅不敢打老虎的監察院"},{"start":3637.182,"end":3666.144,"text":"要注意這個監察院是被譏諷為專門打蒼蠅不敢打老虎的連監察院都說這個霸凌很嚴重彈劾成立彈劾成立直接打臉所謂衛福部的高規格調查都有覺得很奇怪從這個彈劾成立以後衛福部上上下下對於這件事情視而不見可以這樣嗎來看一下住建方"},{"start":3668.254,"end":3685.222,"text":"我質詢過他兩次了啦我質詢過他兩次了你們衛福部一直護航現在被彈劾了你們還是認為這是鼓勵運動不構成霸凌嗎現在衛福部要站出來跟監察院對幹嗎這件事情要怎麼處理來 請部長"},{"start":3687.163,"end":3710.656,"text":"跟委員說明 這個案子也經過我們部的相關霸凌處理程序完成也配合監察院的調查提供了相關的資料我們會對監察院所提出來的相關對我們這個程序當中應該要在盡盡的地方我們去進行檢討"},{"start":3711.957,"end":3725.992,"text":"那不過目前這個進度上呢他已經進入在司法的程序過程當中所以繼續護航下去就對了嘛我們會配合整個司法的程序來進行什麼叫配合整個司法的程序那監察院都彈劾勒"},{"start":3726.974,"end":3743.33,"text":"他現在是移送懲戒法院是當然嘛 那個是懲戒法院嘛那個是依照公務員服務法公務員懲戒法相關的規範嘛現在你作為部長我只要一個清楚的答案是不是打算繼續護航下去讓他當司長"},{"start":3744.83,"end":3765.155,"text":"智或不是就好了 台灣社會會公平智或不是就好了我們會秉持公平公正的方式來處理這個案子所以 你會不會讓他繼續當市長謝謝我們環國常務委員的懸打這個叫公平公正 這個叫高規格調查這個叫官官相護啦這個叫官官相護啊我再說一次 這個叫官官相護啊好 時間到了連監察院都彈劾勒"},{"start":3770.996,"end":3797.373,"text":"今天還站在這邊繼續包庇喔基層的公務員 部長很有氣魄馬上撤銷 司長 這我們自己人怎麼可以拔掉他司長監察院認定霸凌我繼續讓他當司長這就是衛福部的態度喔跟委員說明 我們絕對勿往勿縱是 現在監察院連監察院都打臉你們高規格調查報告了你還站在這邊講勿往勿縱你不覺得丟臉嗎"},{"start":3801.052,"end":3814.418,"text":"你不覺得丟臉嗎我們依據證據做所有的處分對得起那些被霸凌的精神員工嗎好 謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員的詢問接下來請陳清輝委員詢問謝謝主席 想請石部長請石崇良部長陳委員好"},{"start":3830.327,"end":3845.319,"text":"石副長我要追問剛剛黃國昌委員所說的事件因為我現在這邊自己的辦公室也收到全國尤其是高雄許多社工師看不下去了看不下去整件事情的荒腔走板"},{"start":3846.079,"end":3863.553,"text":"這個就是剛講到的林亞區新衛中心核性的殖民他濫用職權查到鎖定一個目標對一位未成年少女家裡性侵事後更企圖要營造成性交易塞錢給他後來呢這個少女去報案檢調成立要調查以後他又透過他在社會局工作的太太再透過公務系統來追蹤性侵案的進度"},{"start":3873.3,"end":3888.486,"text":"那剛剛我們還是要讚美你一下你已經自己決定把他的基督徒刪除了嘛對不對對 撤銷他的資格但是後續呢我還有一些事想要跟你請教高雄市的局長黃志忠局長他是怎麼回應社會大眾的"},{"start":3889.306,"end":3902.29,"text":"他說如果讓社會誤解我在掩蓋我會承受如果有人因此要我下台這個壓力我也承受我跟你說他上次也說他要下台至今都沒有下台上次他因為誣賴我們的雲林台灣貂裡面有多餘的藥劑結果他事後道歉說要下台現在還穩穩地坐在這個位置上"},{"start":3912.614,"end":3914.035,"text":"他說這個半年他做了什麼部長我跟你報告一下他這半年呢他就內部開會配合司法調查然後查詢這個權限並且呢把這個人終止契約餘疑解聘就這樣子就這樣子喔就這樣子沒囉"},{"start":3930.183,"end":3933.426,"text":"這件事情發生在8月要不是現在這個人被起訴1月媒體披露以後他才對外說明耶然後衛生局才開始進行相關的裁罰罰區區六十萬對一個未成年少女性侵濫用公務系統性侵罰區區六十萬並且是媒體披露以後他才這樣子做所以我要幾個問題要請部長說明第一"},{"start":3958.306,"end":3985.177,"text":"你是最高指導機關請問你8月的時候就知道這件事情了你難道沒有叫地方政府要開始調查並且對外說明嗎還有公開調查結果你有沒有這樣做你有沒有建議他們跟委員說明這個8月的時候是你還不是部長對但如果你是呢因為這個事件我有事後有去了解那麼在8月的時候主要是檢調開始來"},{"start":3988.738,"end":4006.831,"text":"調閱這個相關他的這個資訊的查詢記錄公務系統都在衛福部所以檢調一定是去衛福部但是並不清楚這個案件因為當時候還是在偵查不公開的情形之下我們並不了解這個案情我們只是配合檢調去提供這個查詢記錄的資訊"},{"start":4009.032,"end":4028.259,"text":"所以你是要你現在是要跟大家說但是呢這個案子呢據我們事後的了解八月的時候呢在高雄市衛生局已經進行這個相關的人事的評議已經後來就把它解聘了在八月的時候就解聘了"},{"start":4028.973,"end":4049.97,"text":"那八月的時候你只知道他解聘你的意思是說你不曉得來龍去脈是什麼因為他們的解聘不需要通知本部那難道你是要跟大家說你跟我跟所有的立委還有等一下他們內部同仁也有爆料我們都是看新聞才知道的你的意思是這樣子嗎"},{"start":4051.051,"end":4068.88,"text":"我們是直到一月初的時候我們收到這個起訴的內容的時候我們才清除這個案件好 那第二點我要請你調查的是高雄市內部有社工師傳簡訊跟我們說他們長期被封鎖這個資訊僅僅被告知該為同仁請長假這件事你可以去調查嗎"},{"start":4078.291,"end":4093.189,"text":"可以我们可以了解一下据我们的了解他是在8月11号的时候就已经做成解聘的处理了但是他的同事都不知道他被解聘他的同事只知道他在请长假"},{"start":4094.861,"end":4106.312,"text":"我們再進一步了解好 那現在你是部長了你會不會希望高雄市政府針對這個說明以外可以做出更具體的檢討報告因為這個說明非常的空泛你會這樣建議他們嗎這當然應該對每一件事情特別是對"},{"start":4115.82,"end":4137.304,"text":"這個社工其實我們社工第一線的社工呢都是任老任怨做了很多的努力對 這個等一下我會講不要因為一味這一種個人的這種惡劣的行為損及到我們所有的社工的形象我現在是要跟你一起探討我們如何去防堵嘛據我所知你們衛福部會每一個地方政府兩個帳號嘛 對不對兩個帳號"},{"start":4140.365,"end":4158.369,"text":"那這個人他是林亞分區的殖密他照理說他只能看到林亞分區所有個案的資料結果因為他有了這兩個賬號的其中一個所以他現在開始搜尋全部不分區的資料他也就濫用了這個權限這個你們未來要怎麼改善"},{"start":4158.969,"end":4176.178,"text":"跟委員報告我們對於這種資訊的查詢的權限是有規定的那麼以這個欣慰中心這個是欣慰中心的殖密欣慰中心全國大概有71處的欣慰中心每一個欣慰中心都有一個殖密他只能查詢他這一個"},{"start":4177.319,"end":4205.348,"text":"行為中心所列管的案件的資訊它是不能夠跨中心的但是每一個縣市由縣市的衛生局會指定兩個權管更高的人員 兩個它是可以跨區的查詢那你去調查了嗎它憑什麼是最高權限的人你調查了嗎因為這個是由地方去指派所以這是由地方衛生局指派了兩名它是其中一名"},{"start":4206.147,"end":4222.826,"text":"所以難道你不會要求地方政府給你檢討報告嗎我們有進行檢討就是說各項的權限那麼什麼樣的人到什麼樣的層級呢應該要做更明確的要求所以為什麼高雄市政府會給這個人最高權限你到現在知道結果了嗎"},{"start":4223.996,"end":4234.763,"text":"因為他們就是指派普通的各縣市衛生局指派的層級會不一樣有的也是有用這個所以以後你會不會規定他們以後你會不會建立制度他們會來討論讓他有一個一致性的規範就是這個權限的部分第三個也是很重要的問題這個吹哨者說的我現在問部長"},{"start":4247.911,"end":4256.42,"text":"欣慰執迷可不可以在外面兼差擔任性侵加害者團體的督導可不可以"},{"start":4257.509,"end":4282.942,"text":"我們公務人員都有一定的兼差規定兼職規定都是有 都要報據我所知是不行好 這邊有個資訊他114年6月的時候擔任兼差性侵加害者團體的督導有人跟我爆料你多久以內可以調查給我並且我們要知道他在兼差這件事情的時候可以看到多少的資料"},{"start":4284.581,"end":4300.024,"text":"這個我們再向這個衛生局來瞭解好那一個月好不好可以可以好謝謝陳清輝陳委員的詢答好謝謝那接下來請陳昭之委員來做詢答謝謝主席有請石部長請石崇良部長"},{"start":4311.707,"end":4315.21,"text":"陳委員早部長早部長國家醫療科技中心這個對於整個國家醫療發展有舉足輕重的這個地位我希望能夠用獨立還有足夠的專業這個量能來做一個這個為前提來進行因為現在的新藥跟新科技的這個評估"},{"start":4331.483,"end":4354.4,"text":"聚焦在財務衝擊完全忽略了社會價值病人的觀點還有長期的效益部長因為我在裡面多年了請問部長 未來這個中心我有四個問題直接請教你請你正面簡要的回答第一個 未來這個中心在組織跟決策的設計上你如何確保它不成為健保署的小弟小妹跟這個附屬"},{"start":4356.581,"end":4377.366,"text":"跟委員說明這個本身它就是一個獨立的行政法人所以它有它自己的組織法所以我們才會送出這個行政法人的國家醫療科技評估在場很多人重視的也許是硬體結構但我非常清楚軟體的運作的才是真正的核心所以我希望你記得這一點它不能成為健保署"},{"start":4378.526,"end":4407.318,"text":"小弟 小妹或下屬不會 他是未來的業務你不要告訴他我現在只有2億元你就就2億元去做評估這個我看多了 聽多了 見聞多了部長這是第一個你要保證不讓這種事發生未來他們負責評估之後再送給健保我請教你 你這個佈置人力你的專業配置的是如何來處理的你的初步簡單的說法就是你這個背景這個中心嗎對這個中心我們初步的目標是現在大概是在80多位"},{"start":4408.058,"end":4432.244,"text":"就是說你的專家成員的背景專家對 您是否有健康經濟 藥物經濟學統計跟資料分析的這個背景會 都要喊那這些那我要知道有相當的比率好那我再請教你一件事請問健保署的專家的代表可不可以同時也是這個做這個醫療科技評估的代表可不可以 有沒有利益衝突可不可以擔任"},{"start":4433.294,"end":4462.494,"text":"就是我们在健保里面他一方面做评估一方面他又来核架来准许你认为可以吗最终他会不一样一边的话是属于在讨论科技我太懂了我在里面30年他会处理的是从科学的角度去看报告本身的正确性和可依据性讨好健保署讨好卫福部"},{"start":4463.354,"end":4479.727,"text":"那另外在健保的部分呢它是它有這個所謂的共理會議來決定這個要不要給付那至於議價的部分是由健保署的同仁去決定我一直希望你透明化連法庭直播都透明化了我一直希望你透明化有進度"},{"start":4481.263,"end":4486.366,"text":"有相當的時程知道說進度到什麼地方做得到嗎這個科技中心做得到嗎我們現在在醫材的部分的進度都在藥品我跟你談了兩年藥品的話在這個月也會上線這四個問題請你記得我對國家科技中心我要求的是軟體運作的核心不是只有硬體的架構部長有關於兒家屬的成立"},{"start":4504.918,"end":4523.835,"text":"但是兒家屬他這個兒校保護有涉及這個性剝削防治還有這個涉及到這個好幾個部門教育部是負責校園通報法務部是司法介入NCC是網路管理那需要整合的部會啊那你這個兒家屬他是三級單位層級不夠啊請問你要如何讓他能夠進行跨部會的一個溝通跟協調呢因為從凱凱案"},{"start":4528.9,"end":4548.874,"text":"我們看到不良的橫向溝通造成這樣的悲劇所以我希望你能夠記取這個教訓那你如何讓這個三級單位能夠做到跨部會的協調呢我想這個跨部會很多的業務都有跨部會的問題都是一樣要就是你要怎麼做呢那另外一個我們有個平台"},{"start":4549.554,"end":4559.305,"text":"在行政院還有一個兒少福利及權益的小組你就是要做跨部會的我們先不要管其他部門機構衛福部新成立的組織怎麼來進行跨部會的處理因為它只是三級的機構但是牽涉的問題很廣"},{"start":4568.515,"end":4579.623,"text":"他其實在行政委員會努力做然後我要看到你怎麼做部長去年台南麻豆某居家托育機構有個正姓保姆他是有照的他找來無照的張姓朋友冒牌 正牌保姆違法操作孩童而且還虐童事後企圖還刪除監視器的畫面把他滅證根據調查過去只要社會局派人 警察人上門無照的張姓保姆就會把小朋友非法搜索小朋友帶往另外一棟大樓去躲避起來"},{"start":4598.135,"end":4603.337,"text":"所以根據社家屬的這個訪視規定他因為需要這個事先電話預約這個時間讓稽查效果整個大打折扣這也是為什麼張姓保姆他可以違法兩年之久都沒有被發現那部長你參考一下這個兒童您容忍跟還想陪你長大的這個兒家屬的政策建言他說把訪視員的預約制改成這個不預期的他用突襲檢查的我比較願意用不預期的這個做法您同意嗎 你有支持這個"},{"start":4625.988,"end":4636.172,"text":"跟委員說明在凱凱案之後我們在113年就已經修改我們的綁法規定已經是不預期了我還是要再提到呂建德市長主導的內部調查霸凌案但是結果這麼大的差距譬如以劉玉娟 剛才他們是以其他的市長劉玉娟本身在內部的調查是沒有霸凌事件那現在這個監察院很清楚的指出來那我請問你兩件事情"},{"start":4653.8,"end":4677.736,"text":"你怎麼處理劉玉娟你怎麼處理主導這個調查案的呂次長請你明白的告訴我我想當時候在這個內部的調查的程序裡面都有依照規定我聽取過這個報告 漏洞百出我在公開質詢這個錄影都有但是部長 我現在問你你要處理這個官官相互完全失職的呂次長可以嗎 他可以進去做調查嗎"},{"start":4682.496,"end":4697.48,"text":"他做的調查跟箭頭完全不同啊他的調查已經結束了整個調查報告也都完成了我想要看到你後續處理做錯事總是要被處罰嘛完全不相同 你們是官官相護嘛那我請問你 劉奕娟現在還是擔任你的主命她現在被送到懲戒法庭了你要繼續任用她嗎 重用她嗎"},{"start":4701.661,"end":4710.426,"text":"因為當時候的程序我們都已經完成它的相關的調查報告確實它沒有符合這個法例我要告訴你 你兒少法基本上要遵守國際兒童權利公約又要以兒童最佳利益為優先但是如果你一個部門連你自己的基層同仁都沒有辦法好好保護好好被制度守護著請問你我們怎麼相信你衛福部的體系能夠這樣的去守護其他的家庭"},{"start":4727.897,"end":4751.895,"text":"我們非常強調這個內部的申訴管道那麼不會誤玩誤中啦我們不會讓這個霸凌再發生好 謝謝陳昭智委員的詢答有夠厲害的啦可以看你這樣質詢來 接下來我們請不過石部長也講文件啦那接下來請王玉銘委員來做詢答"},{"start":4757.591,"end":4760.727,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請石部長請石崇良部長"},{"start":4763.673,"end":4786.927,"text":"王委員好部長好部長首先我還是要問有關於高雄新衛中心的這個何子密他竟然違法去收集個資而且還性侵未成年少女這件事情我覺得這個是在社福體系跟衛生體系來講爆發了非常重大的事件但是這個事件爆發到現在我看到了幾個問題"},{"start":4788.268,"end":4815.16,"text":"第一個是整個行政的不管是對於他社工師證照的這個懲戒 撤照也好到現在竟然他還有社工師的執照這是完全不可思議非常非常的緩慢請問什麼時候他的這個社工師證照用最快的速度應該要廢止這樣的人哪有資格擔任社工師啊真的非常的可恥啊"},{"start":4816.643,"end":4834.53,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們也有進行了解為什麼因為我按照社工司法大概有兩個程序我覺得高雄市政府失職耶一個是等到法律判決之後依法撤銷他的證書另外一個就是一副懲戒那確實在10月的時候有一副懲戒"},{"start":4835.31,"end":4849.357,"text":"那怎麼那麼慢呢但是因為呢這個當事人當時候被羈押所以讓那個懲戒的程序中止沒有辦法繼續進行那現在又重新啟動了所以應該在近期內就會做出決定我覺得這個你們要好好徹底檢討這個在社政體系這邊我個人認為這個不可思議而且太緩慢了"},{"start":4856.681,"end":4883.322,"text":"如果高雄市衛生局如他們所說在8月9號就已經計兩大過免職解聘了那懲戒怎麼沒有跟上來還有社會局為什麼橫向社會局的裁處裁罰是見報才裁罰為什麼沒有跟上呢一個人如果可以被計兩大過免職表示罪證確鑿嘛這個是事實嘛你還等什麼檢調的調查報告呢"},{"start":4885.183,"end":4900.616,"text":"為什麼沒有跟上 你有瞭解嗎社會局到什麼時候才懲處事件爆發之後才懲處他60萬1月5號才把他的姓名公告按照兒童法他才公告到這個CRC的網站上面"},{"start":4901.752,"end":4918.751,"text":"有處理起這麼重大事件這麼牛部的嗎請問他們在睡覺嗎他們到底是發生了什麼事情還是那個衛生局局長隻手遮天什麼訊息通通都掩蓋連社會局也不知情嗎是這樣子嗎為什麼都不處理我們會"},{"start":4920.754,"end":4936.155,"text":"督促這個地方社會局這邊的懲戒趕快進行我覺得不是督促的問題我要問的是那請問地方什麼時候告訴中央這件事情有完整的告訴你們"},{"start":4937.236,"end":4954.698,"text":"他有沒有通報給你們的相關單位這是非常重大一方面又違反兒少法一方面他也是違反性侵害犯罪防治法非常重大的事件而且根據性侵害犯罪防治法第五條中央本來就有督導地方性侵害防治事項的責任"},{"start":4956.36,"end":4975.199,"text":"那我就問你們這段期間督導了什麼從8月9號他記兩大過免職之後到底地方政府回報你們什麼訊息而這當中中央政府又督導了地方什麼事項有召開任何的相關專家會議檢討這麼重大的事項嗎"},{"start":4978.803,"end":5006.502,"text":"因為它不是只有這個高雄會發生今天高雄發生這樣一個事件那你要有機制你要去檢討確保其他的體系 其他的縣市類似的不要發生而且你們應該要預警應該要告訴其他縣市說高雄已經爆發這麼重大的它是新衛中心的殖密但是它違法去調閱資料所以要提醒大家在個資方面 權限方面應該要落實"},{"start":5007.483,"end":5032.733,"text":"我看這些你們通通都沒有做你們是整個高雄市政府就蓋牌然後讓你中央也沒有插手是這樣子嗎還是你們知道之後你們沒有善盡督導的責任跟委員說明我們近期知道這個完整的面貌之後也召開過會議所以你們也是近期才知道那地方有沒有沒有通報的沒有完整跟中央通報的獅子的責任"},{"start":5033.834,"end":5044.346,"text":"不過就整個程序來講如何去精進這個地方跟中央的資訊的這個通報流通我們會在後面再繼續檢討我們目前先檢討的是對這個資訊的權限因為這裡面我具體要求"},{"start":5050.693,"end":5070.271,"text":"這個部長你們中央應該要立刻召開一個專案會議這個專案會議兩個目的第一個徹底去檢討整個高雄市政府他在整個處理的過程包括我剛剛講是非常嚴重的你既然8月9號這個人就兩大過免職結果衛生局沒有跟進去開拔"},{"start":5070.891,"end":5089.629,"text":"然後也沒有去公告姓名你足足延宕了四個半月這一點一定要究責而且要去了解為什麼是這樣子是不是有人在掩蓋相關的資訊就是不想讓這個資訊出來第二個才是你講的這件事情涉及到的是其他的這些個管系統它的安全性"},{"start":5090.35,"end":5105.931,"text":"然後他的權限都應該要徹底的從這個事件當中從頭再來檢討而且要讓其他縣市政府知道這件事情我覺得是不可思議爆發這麼重大的事件沒有檢討會議也沒有去示警其他的縣市然後這個懲處又這麼的緩慢"},{"start":5108.354,"end":5132.807,"text":"我真的認為這個局長早就該下台了這是掩蓋這就是完全沒有處理那他現在對外講的簽字文說他是為了保護被害人這個藉口太廉價保護被害人是所有的法令規定我們都會做到的事情但是跟你好好徹底去嚴懲這一個人相關的懲處到位這個是應該要去跟上的事情沒有跟上"},{"start":5135.228,"end":5151.416,"text":"這個檢討會議我們已經啟動了那我們對整個系統性的來做檢討那包含雖然這個權限是由各地方政府去指定不過我們要有一個一致性的規範然後讓這個最少揭露原則的方式來做這個"},{"start":5152.476,"end":5172.134,"text":"你也要檢討地方政府整個的處理我很明確的指出來社會局他延宕了四個半月才懲處這個就是疏失而這個人到現在還有社公司的證照這個也是疏失整個行政程序處理上面是沒有跟上的這個都是有問題的"},{"start":5173.115,"end":5193.824,"text":"最後我要問你這次的耳家屬再給我一分鐘耳家屬的這個部分我們希望就是這個部分多聽一下這個耳哨團體的意見他們在這個相關的組織希望可以有更有未來性我希望這個衛福部還要再開一個公聽會正式的聽大家的意見好不好"},{"start":5194.164,"end":5207.433,"text":"好 謝謝王玉明委員的詢答因為今天的人數真的是比較多一點就在主條的時候大家可以很多充分的時間來做討論接下來請林月晴委員來做詢答主席麻煩我們的衛福部部長請施部長"},{"start":5219.723,"end":5240.436,"text":"部長早 林委員早那當然今天的主題是很多民間團體包含我過去一直很關心我們兒少權益的委員們都引領盼望的能夠針對於我們的衛福部的主改能夠今天能夠順利來做討論當然可以通過能符合民間的需求"},{"start":5241.414,"end":5270.547,"text":"那今天大概很多個重點我就不一一在講因為我主要還是要針對兒家屬來做討論首先我想針對事故傷害防治的業務就請教部長在未來成立的兒家屬當中事故傷害防治的事項包含策略擬定跟推動數據監測和死因回溯等是否會整併進來因為今天我們一直在催生可是我們並沒有去處理死亡這件事情我們生的少死亡數又高所以這部分請部長回答一下"},{"start":5271.007,"end":5299.755,"text":"好 更為包括在健康台灣的目標裡面有一項就是要降低這個兒童兒少的死亡率所以這我們把它定在這個目標裡頭所以在未來這個兒少署成立之後那麼有一組在兒童健康組的部分就會納入有關於兒童健康包含了這個死因的分析來介入這個政策來降低這個死亡我聽到你這樣講很高興因為目前我看到我們的院版的一個草案當中並沒有"},{"start":5300.555,"end":5328.519,"text":"看到這樣的相關文字因為我要再三的強調0到17歲的事故傷害已經是位居第一名而且我們比日韓的死亡數和傷害的數據事實上是高的所以每一年大概都超過150個孩子因這樣子而失去生命所以執法機關也應該按照現在應該做死因回溯可是我們只做6歲以下所以我們希望說未來應該要提升到18歲可是我們希望這個能夠去納入"},{"start":5329.246,"end":5355.619,"text":"那我也希望說要去做事故的數據的監測第二個就是再來就是要談死亡的自殺剛剛講事故傷害地名可是接下來就是14到25華的我們的自殺率就是非常高那我相信部長也很清楚過去興建市也有委託學者分析兒少自殺的成因許多研究也都指出相較於成人自殺率逐年下降可是兒少不但"},{"start":5356.92,"end":5385.163,"text":"年年上升成因更极为复杂所以在预防策略上不同于成人在许多食物工作者也跟我讲说目前的权限你的权责规划里边落实到地方政府而造的身心健康资源就是明显的受到忽略所以以及身心以我们的儿童身心专科医师来讲不仅事实上是稀缺的人才相关的服务资源往往都需要跟成瘾科来竞争"},{"start":5385.743,"end":5406.025,"text":"所以以場域來看的話雖然興建是很努力的提出外展計畫可是像少年矯正機構安置機構在人力的運用上都是跟成人共用的所以缺乏兒少專業這也讓服務供給沒有辦法貼近實際需求所以我說有沒有可能把兒少身心健康的業務完全有辦法切割過來嗎"},{"start":5408.126,"end":5425.514,"text":"我想這個心理健康這個部分在我們這個整個部的發展過程當中逐漸的獨立出來就凸顯出我們現在這個心理健康對於這種心理健康的重視那至於要不要按照年齡層切割"},{"start":5427.395,"end":5456.019,"text":"怎麼樣是對兒少是最好這個我們要在內部要再跟專家大家一起討論否則成人自殺下降可是兒少的是逐年往上升對 但是因為在這個心理健康的專家多數是在這個我們現在的新建師的相關的業務範疇所以我覺得那未來就要怎麼去衡軸去做一個比較好的連結那部長第三個議題就是說今天身心健康議題我們當然要"},{"start":5456.579,"end":5482.388,"text":"以身份別來做業務診病的話可能有很多的考慮可是近年在數位這個環境的安全跟隱私保障方面也都是非常多人關心的可是我們現在看到的是好像也沒再看到你診病在這邊所以我認為這是我們對於兒少專責機構的重要期待是不是能夠包含數位網路使用安全跟隱私保障的議題都能夠包含進來還有我剛剛講的自殺這一塊"},{"start":5483.03,"end":5507.521,"text":"我想這個數位跟網路對於青少年的危害在我們目前心理健康師其實已經有在研究也有在介入那麼特別是對他的這個行為的影響壓力還有他的這個認知跟這個注意力學習都會產生一些影響這個全世界都在有這方面的趨勢而且有相關法律台灣又沒有法令"},{"start":5508.361,"end":5532.362,"text":"對 那在我們這個心健師心理健康師已經把這個列為業務範疇之一也有相關對應的計畫所以這個我們會持續的來強化那當然在未來這個兒少屬成立的時候這個兒童健康組一定也會有這一個是整合的身心靈的健康是要合在一起的也會有這個相關的政策的擬定"},{"start":5533.302,"end":5559.154,"text":"最後提到兒權公約我們也即將進入今年要交第三次國家報告了國際委員要來做審查了所以呢我認為在參與表議的機制上我們還是落後太多所以去年才會出現台中市兒少代表集體遭台中市政府取消資格的爭議所以我們認為缺乏一個明確的制度化的設計讓一些地方政府可以找漏洞來鑽直接干涉到兒少參與所以"},{"start":5561.435,"end":5586.297,"text":"這幾年呢大衛福部一直都在試辦我們的權力影響評估我認為適逢兒少專責機構成立也應該要整併到你的整個處務規程當中讓新的兒少家庭署能夠成為規劃推動執行跟監督兒權公約的專責單位也能夠具體回應國際審查委員的建議所以我不知道部長這部分可以達成嗎會 我們支持這樣的方向好 那我覺得希望"},{"start":5589.781,"end":5601.071,"text":"真的要去考慮我們剛剛講的心理的健康這一塊跟數位好 謝謝好 謝謝林業勤委員的詢答接下來請黃秀芳委員做詢答謝謝主席 我們請部長請石部長花園早"},{"start":5614.737,"end":5637.495,"text":"部長我先就我們今天有一些兒家屬即將要成立那我想請教就是說其實大家都很擔心就是說少子化這個議題真的非常的嚴重那我從內政部上面得到了一些消息一些資訊就2025年1月到11月的這個新生兒就只有98,785人"},{"start":5641.057,"end":5661.227,"text":"跟去年相較起來我不知道12月到底又生了多少整個2025年的新生兒是不是有10萬應該有10萬多應該差不多其實相較於去年這個前年的話其實又少了"},{"start":5661.967,"end":5687.197,"text":"少了一兩萬我不知道說部長你看到這樣的一個數字你會有什麼樣的感覺或者是你會覺得少子化的議題我們已經講了很久未來兒家屬成立之後對於少子化有什麼樣的一個解決方式或者是兒家屬成立對於少子化你們要扮演什麼樣的一個角色"},{"start":5687.956,"end":5703.871,"text":"跟委員說明確實我們看到這樣的生育率是很優先因為這個農年在過去是生育率會是比較高的那但是這個前一年的這個農年並沒有這樣的現象然後再加上"},{"start":5704.551,"end":5724.634,"text":"去年又是12年本來就會比農年更低但是又低到這麼多我們真的也是很擔心不過我們也做了很多努力包含不論是在生育的補助不論是在人工生殖的補助"},{"start":5725.695,"end":5749.015,"text":"或者是在托育这个津贴那么这个公托准公托的推展还有这个家庭的支持其实做了很多的努力但是呢显然还没有具体的成效出来那就是做了这些努力所以现在这个行政院呢也再次的提出这在修正了我们的少"},{"start":5749.595,"end":5775.334,"text":"子女对策行动计划所以今年开始又有一个新的2.0就是少子女化对策行动计划的2.0版又会扩大那么这个范围这个涉及的层面那么从生育养育教育到这个生活支持住宅还有这个职场的友善等等又在做更"},{"start":5776.263,"end":5794.288,"text":"大範圍跟全面性的政策的介入希望說能夠改變這樣的趨勢部長 我希望就是說我幾乎每一年都會再問到這個議題從我進到立法院到現在那時候當時"},{"start":5796.348,"end":5817.114,"text":"差不多10年前那時候生育率還有差不多這個新生兒差不多還有將近20萬那到現在剩下我看一下應該是到11月去年的11月是9萬8千多人那應該有突破10萬多可是我們看到這樣的一個數字真的會嚇死這減了一半的這個新生兒"},{"start":5817.814,"end":5840.943,"text":"所以我希望就是說部長針對這一部分我們可能這個當然不是一個衛福部可以去解決的一個問題那當然就是說衛福部你應該這個兒家屬我們也寄予厚望希望說針對這一部分應該也要有一些這個貢獻一些心力那我們希望說今年的這個新生兒真的不要再"},{"start":5841.383,"end":5870.209,"text":"不要再往下掉了這個是我們的期待要不然真的是大家都會怕不知道怎麼辦接下來我想請教部長針對我在去年5月份的時候我那時候有針對我們家國家衛生研究院底下有一個兒童醫學及健康研究中心我有針對這部分去做一個質詢當時我們知道國衛院底下兒童醫學及"},{"start":5870.609,"end":5885.547,"text":"健康研究中心它只是針對政策的一個制定我想請教就是說在這個研究中心裡面因為應該這個研究中心是跟有一些單位他們是有一些合作"},{"start":5887.489,"end":5908.094,"text":"在去年5月的時候我那時候說這個健康研究中心上面的資訊其實一直都沒有更新我們會認為國衛院底下的兒童醫學及健康研究中心應該是國家級的一個研究中心所有的資訊應該也是最新的"},{"start":5909.595,"end":5922.744,"text":"那我當時在去年5月的時候我就有詢問就是說上面的資料都完全沒有更新那到最近這幾天我再上去看也完全沒有更新我不知道說這個單位它到底是"},{"start":5924.605,"end":5941.387,"text":"大家会觉得说这个儿童医学健康研究中心应该是非常重要的一个单位为什么它连一些关于儿童医疗的资讯完全都没有更新我不知道部长你针对这一部分你有什么样的回应"},{"start":5941.647,"end":5962.653,"text":"好 我們再來了解一下因為他現在網頁上的是他的研究報告他當時候會有一個研究報告的建議出來但是後來這個國際上也好或者是我們在ACIP就是疫苗資訊委員會都會有一些新的建議那他可能沒有把它彙整在一起我們再來督促他們來跟上這個看看這個資訊上怎麼樣來呈現"},{"start":5964.894,"end":5979.108,"text":"另外我要講的就是說我們這個研究中心它算是制度的一個政策的一個制定那實際在臨床上面我覺得我們也需要有這樣的一個這個兒童級的一個健康中心"},{"start":5980.189,"end":6005.215,"text":"因為食物上這個臨床上所有的這個兒童會碰到的這些疾病我覺得應該也要有這樣的一個單位那在去年的時候我在總諮詢也有針對這一部分有去做個諮詢希望說我們這個衛福部針對這一部分應該也要來重視就是有一個臨床上面的這個國家級的兒童健康中心部長你覺得這個是不是有需要"},{"start":6005.915,"end":6032.666,"text":"跟委員說明就是說我們在國務院裡面這算是一個智庫的角色對 這個算是一個政策的一個制定它是智庫 但扮演的是智庫協助在這個政策擬定之前的資料的收集跟研析然後提出這個建議但是最後要轉化成政策執行的時候當然還是在主政單位所以未來就是我們的兒少組會做這個政策最後的決定然後來推動"},{"start":6033.406,"end":6062.604,"text":"那在临床上呢我们另外一个就是儿童医疗体系的建立那就包含了儿童医院就是最高等级的这个儿童医院然后再下来有核心医院就是儿童这个比较有集中症能力的那在部件层基础的这个基层所以这个是整个儿童的医疗照护体系的建立所以我想这个是三方面来共同来那我们希望就是说有一个临床的这个国家级的儿童健康中心好不好"},{"start":6063.324,"end":6068.085,"text":"請部長針對這部份再來關心謝謝黃秀芳委員的詢問這個少子化這個議題 國民黨時代我們講得真好我們只要叫我們的孩子帶小孩子也沒有啦不然我們之後就叫政府倒腳手了但是這個對小孩子的投資那其實也是對國家的投資這事大人沒辦法之後就叫政府接下來我們有請吳宗憲委員來做詢問"},{"start":6096.772,"end":6121.757,"text":"謝謝主席那我們麻煩部長請時部長部長你好我想我們就直接切入主題你們說成立兒家屬是為了建立完整的兒少體系接住每一個孩子但少子化現在已經是國安危機了現在台灣的出生率已經降到0.87了這世界第一低"},{"start":6122.577,"end":6140.708,"text":"那全世界沒有這樣子的那這涉及的不是久衛福部啊像還有勞動部的工時教育部的那個客戶輔導等等的還有內政部的社宅等等的問題那我雖然看到很多那個那個側翼啊出來幫政府洗地說這個先進國家少子化都是這樣但是我們"},{"start":6141.508,"end":6162.154,"text":"我們中華民國不是世界第一名的先進國家我們排不上但是我們是第一低的出生率那就不對那就表示我們的政策出了大問題我們不可以推給年輕人年輕人不想生是政策導致他們不想生所以請問一下你們這一次的草案兒家屬這只是行政院衛福部底下的一個三級機關"},{"start":6163.975,"end":6188.751,"text":"那這個東西能夠解決問題嗎因為一個三級機關他要怎麼樣去指揮勞動部譬如說這個運駕彈性的問題那內政部租金補貼的問題或者是教育部課後輔導失職的問題一個三級機關有辦法去指揮其他部嗎所以我不知道這次草案部長你們還是把它放在三級機關他可以跨部會計解決這些問題嗎 請問部長"},{"start":6190.112,"end":6208.206,"text":"跟委員說明我們這次兒少組的設立主要是對兒童的照顧的部分能夠有完整那麼以兒童跟家庭為中心的一個照顧的整合跟資源的挹注那至於少子女化的對策它其實就如同委員講的它是很跨部門的"},{"start":6209.207,"end":6226.205,"text":"從他的這個職場的友善包含這個住宅的問題那麼包含他的養育生育都有所以我們這個是跨部會另外在行政院層級另外有一個對策少子化出生率是一個問題照顧小孩是另外一個問題"},{"start":6228.067,"end":6248.35,"text":"解決少子化要跨部會照顧小孩不用跨部會嗎也要對 那你放在一個三級機關的用意是什麼所以這個對孩子的照顧當然它也可能涉及到教育部的問題對 那你要協調其他部門會的時候怎麼辦但是教育部裡面它也包含很多它也不是只有兒童不 你沒有回答部長 你沒有回答我的問題"},{"start":6249.051,"end":6273.708,"text":"你現在兒家屬是三級機關但是保護幼童是跨部會的問題請問他要怎麼樣去指揮勞動部教育部內政部他要怎麼指揮請教部長我們都會根據這個問題做橫向的聯繫譬如說有這個性侵的那麼我們也有一個平台不是部長你沒有回答我的問題我知道橫向但是一個"},{"start":6275.389,"end":6301.563,"text":"衛福部底下的三級機關要怎麼樣去跟勞動部內政部這些部級的單位去怎麼指揮他們我們都會有機制的跟委員說明譬如說像癌症的部分我們也是在國民健康署裡面的業務那他也會橫向的跟勞動部有關係跟教育部有關係我們一樣做橫向的平台報告部長我自己做過25年的公務員"},{"start":6302.984,"end":6319.461,"text":"下級對上級寫個千層都要寫直直無中限在古代叫做卑職無中限在這個時代直無中限那一個署長要跟部長報告事情的時候是以一個卑職的角度去跟他講所以這就是我擔心根本無法解決跨部會"},{"start":6321.063,"end":6345.684,"text":"照顧小孩是跨部會的問題就你今天把它放在一個衛福部底下三級機關我真的不知道怎麼處理我再跟你們報告你今天需要跨部會的事情就你草案還是放在這麼底下的一個穗罕的機關這會沒有辦法解決這些問題那你什麼如果說都叫政委來協調如果政委可以協調我們今天也不用再組織改造了那我先跟你講你看一下鄰近的國家"},{"start":6347.984,"end":6371.762,"text":"我先跟你講你之前受訪你自己也講過兒童問題涉及學校環境農業需要跨部會協調並非單一機關可以處理您自己受訪都這樣講過所以今天保護小孩真的要跨部會我們看一下日本怎麼做日本他們兒家庭我們是兒家屬差一個字而已但是他們的兒家庭隸屬於首相所以他非常容易的去做跨部會的"},{"start":6373.244,"end":6386.576,"text":"第二個 韓國韓國他認為國家已經進入人口緊急狀態所以他設立一個人口戰略企劃部部長是誰由副總理兼任所以他很容易去做跨部會的協調但是我們台灣"},{"start":6387.657,"end":6411.698,"text":"我們現在台灣的狀況比日本 韓國的生育率還低人家是用首相 用副總理層級的人在拼命在救出生育率低 在救怎麼樣去保護幼兒結果我們台灣還是在一個三級機關這就是賴總統口中所謂的重視嗎這就是我一個很大的問題所以我再跟各位報告"},{"start":6413.365,"end":6429.994,"text":"你看以前我們叫體育署就體育署的運動員要出國比賽做什麼的時候選手培訓要預算都還要再去跟其他部去跟人家要那教育部還要去幫忙去協調這個也就是說所有的預算他部長每個禮拜去跟人家討但是呢"},{"start":6430.994,"end":6458.622,"text":"分下來之後到數就沒有錢所以為什麼我們去年要成立運動部跟我們主席莊委我們一直努力把運動部成立就是因為要讓他能夠多預算最後我跟你講我們從之前那個凱凱案我們看到一個問題為什麼凱凱案會發生因為保母龜衛福部沒有人去統籌社工警察那之後凱凱案之後又還有台南虐童拖鷹虐童什麼等等案子我們發現一個問題這個就是"},{"start":6461.892,"end":6484.45,"text":"很多東西歸不同部門管目前少年歸司法院學校歸教育部輔導歸警政署社工又歸衛福部所以搞到最後這些該被保護的小朋友才被漏掉我想我們最近我們這邊很多合作的單位有很多民團我們有還想陪你長大聯盟兒虐零容忍同聲同響"},{"start":6486.133,"end":6505.473,"text":"兒福聯盟孩子書這些第一線的民團他們有一再的呼籲要有國家級的整合而且他們有一份報告出來這份我也已經給你們了那我希望這個在第一線這些他們所提出來這些需求部長您一定要注意到他們有幾個"},{"start":6507.094,"end":6534.089,"text":"最簡要的我跟您報告我怕你沒時間看他們要有一個說了算找得到的中央負責人他們要有一袋專屬於孩子的預算而且他們要能統籌警證 護證 設證資料才能夠把虐兒的黑數找出來他們要全國一套的標準不能看小孩子出生在哪一個縣市碰運氣那個縣市有沒有資源而且要銜接法院還有少年的系統希望部長你可不可以在兩週內針對民團所提出來的這個"},{"start":6535.609,"end":6562.802,"text":"訴求提出具體的回應可以嗎兩週內好 謝謝我想這些建議我們都會很具體的來檢視最後送部長一句話好的政策要執行才能落實那一樣相對的必須透過第一線經驗的回饋才能彌補政策漏洞這些民團第一線給我們的報告給我們的回應這個是最重要彌補我們政策漏洞的一個重點謝謝胡中線委員的精彩的詢談謝謝"},{"start":6565.363,"end":6576.192,"text":"我看你弄一個政策 石崇良部長好啊我兒子我叫他喘沒聲 叫他吶吶我兒子會聽石崇良的我怕是我不相信是 謝謝主席好 謝謝來 接下來請程培宇委員來做詢答我聽小子話這個 我就聽到聲了不要跟他說話也不一定會聽我的好 來 謝謝主席請石部長"},{"start":6597.427,"end":6622.28,"text":"部長來我就直接切入重點了這個兒家屬我已經知道你們花了很多力氣來那我直接先幫你找到一個我們目前收集到的bug是這樣部長你一定知道有所謂的重症兒對嗎那重症兒現在的困境是這樣我們台灣在18歲以下的身心障礙人數目前的統計大概是57000人其中0到18歲的重症兒就佔了15000人這個比例相當的高"},{"start":6622.78,"end":6642.367,"text":"而這些孩子們他們的需求有哪些鼻胃管抽膝因此他們的爸爸媽媽基本上在醫療照顧教育經濟喘息的方面來來去去非常的辛苦我知道我們的相關部會已經努力提供很多資源可是因為過去我們沒有把重症兒這件事情故意凸顯出來特意凸顯出來"},{"start":6644.208,"end":6668.094,"text":"過去大家對重症兒的想像是把他顧好活下來就好可是現在有越來越多的家長他告訴你孩子有能力求學的我們希望他去學校然後家長有能力繼續工作的讓他去在經濟方面有所成長所以我們後來現在就發現我相信部長你一定知道照顧資源分散行政部門分工不清法規解釋不清所以有非常多重症兒的家庭他們其實在過去有非常多困境來第一個"},{"start":6669.679,"end":6688.099,"text":"特教生就所謂的孩子0到18歲他到學校去他有抽膝的需求那有些人說可以有些人又說不可以法規解釋不清行政部門分工不明到底是老師來做助理員來做還是護理師來做還是家長自己去做甚至有的家長他被老師無理的要求說就算我做過訓練我也不敢做"},{"start":6689.761,"end":6714.853,"text":"因為我怕小孩在學校出了什麼事所以乾脆叫小孩不要來上課這個案子我相信你一定知道而且不是只有一個非常多這樣的案子第二種案例是什麼呢小孩的失能程度符合最嚴重的長照第八級每個月可以獲得三萬六千一百八十塊的補助但很可惜很多照服員他就算受過訓練他也不敢不願意不能不想去照顧這些十八歲以下的重症兒童"},{"start":6715.933,"end":6741.899,"text":"部長我們未來在兒家屬我本來以為我們有機會在這個部分看見兒家屬對於所謂0到18歲重症兒的照顧但確實我們翻開相關的法規我其實還是有點擔心所以部長我們提出一些解方的可能性在去年的12月4號由台大醫院呂律醫師我相信你一定認識還有重症兒360發展協會我們做了一個台日交流現場有30多個醫療專業團體還有家長團體"},{"start":6745.62,"end":6766.208,"text":"然後感謝衛福部有派員出席教育部也有派員出席他們傾聽了非常多的意見當天呢開完會之後我跟王振旭委員一起開這個會我們也發了一個聯合公文到你們衛福部去很多的內容在我的投影片上我就不細念要日後我們再來討論好不好我就不再用時間但是有一個事情最重要"},{"start":6767.649,"end":6785.866,"text":"現在有沒有可能在我們相關資源盤點的過程當中回到衛福部的組織法來修法我們希望把這個部分加上去就是醫療照護健康促進心理健康促進跟家庭支持服務事業甚至可以有一個第七項建立重症兒童家庭主管機關專責諮詢個管中心單一窗口 告訴我"},{"start":6790.633,"end":6819.478,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這個窗口應該在哪裡對這個服務最好我們可以來討論不過呢關於醫療照護的政策一定會納入在這個兒少署裡面我相信這個我對你有信心政策上會放進來對我對你有信心但是實務上在操作的時候那個窗口要放在哪裡當然我們來討論看看而且其實剛剛很多委員提到當0到18歲小孩他有就讀的需求然後他有照顧的需求緊急救護的需求這些需求"},{"start":6820.078,"end":6830.643,"text":"如何在兒家屬的這個定義跟組織的功能當中去做一個想像可能大家比較多期待還是放在你們身上不會放在教育部身上不知道你認不認同"},{"start":6832.397,"end":6838.101,"text":"我們願意擔起來只是說放在什麼地方啦這個我們之後再來討論這個我們再來討論好不好謝謝部長這一題就先這樣那我們之後持續來討論再來有一個陳情趕快跟您說因為我們不希望他持續的發燒"},{"start":6850.949,"end":6863.277,"text":"雙核醫院千一例行檢測破損建議要汰換可是半年過去沒有任何改善的措施在去年的11月FB有一個靠北護理師裡面有一篇發文他說我們雙核醫院用來做輻射防護的千一經過檢測都確認破損而且應該要汰換了可是院內的管理職卻說還堪用"},{"start":6871.963,"end":6901.372,"text":"一直到上個月就有吹哨者來請跟我們澄清希望我們可以積極的協助我們來看一下相關資料去年下半年的檢測中間綠色那一欄是檢測結果是破損的部分可以看到破損的部分其實還不少那進一步看檢測的細節下一張已經不是一兩件的裝備而是大半的防護牽衣在檢測後都已經確認為破損高風險並且建議汰換可是一直到上個月我們收到澄清都還是沒有改善"},{"start":6902.052,"end":6918.087,"text":"那我不知道是因為雙核醫院發生了什麼事情還是我們現在有沒有一些醫院有一些這樣的狀況我就快速跟部長報告一下那我們辦公室後續會再請衛福部自己的協助好不好好 這個案子我們今天立刻查明好 謝謝部長好 那後續兒家屬我們再進行討論我們有超時 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":6924.914,"end":6931.501,"text":"謝謝陳培議員時間控制的很精準接下來請王逸川委員來做詢答我們請部長 請石部長王委員早 部長好"},{"start":6944.784,"end":6951.689,"text":"你們這一次做了這些調整 我想應該也是經過蠻長時間的討論行政院也同意做組織調整最怕多了人 多了組織然後有些業務還留在原來的單位 只是假人而已你們成立了這個兒家屬以後"},{"start":6968.942,"end":6995.609,"text":"有哪一些原來在衛福部部本部裡頭的這些業務被移出來了有盤點過嗎有 我們有進行盤點在這個本來的現在的社家署裡面的兒童福利組有一個兒童福利會移到這個新成立的兒少署那另外我們在保護服務師裡面有所謂的兒少保護的業務這個是在部本來的師的業務會移到這個署"},{"start":6997.714,"end":7027.174,"text":"那麼另外呢在這個兒童未來發展帳戶對於這個脫貧這個兒少的脫貧的這個計畫那麼本來是在社工師的也會移到這個數所以把那另外在健康的部分的早期療癒本來的業務分散在不同的單位也會把它整合好 那原來在那些單位的主管叫什麼師下面叫科長對對對 就是師的下面就是科的業務那以後這些師就沒有這些科囉"},{"start":7028.625,"end":7056.239,"text":"他是一部分的業務出來所以你這個師裡頭還是有這些科對對對對然後就跑到另外一邊再去創了其他的族因為他這個科本來的業務不是只有做兒童他還有其他大人的部分像有的是做這個性侵有的是做家暴那不同的性侵有可能是兒少業務以後就會急增來 我要講啦"},{"start":7058.632,"end":7077.787,"text":"自己分工分樓清廁啦不然你喔 兩邊都有長官啦不到最後就是說這不是已經成立兒少署了嗎不是已經移到哪一組了嗎然後怎麼又回來找我這個師的這個科長呢我們已經移出去啊那我就請問你這個科長那你這個科長現在在幹嘛就是說你這傢伙會受傷出事的時候 要追究的時候就說不好 這成立兒少署那邊的事不要找我確定喔"},{"start":7088.974,"end":7112.033,"text":"不然請問你現在這個課程你做什麼這個事情你身為部長就把這個事情要釐清你也知道過去很多事情就是說以前大家大婚的時候連理髮委員但是現在也無法請求就是說這是那個單位那個單位那個單位第二個成立這個署以後有沒有從教育部移任何的業務過來"},{"start":7113.818,"end":7127.641,"text":"目前的規劃沒有好 原來沒有就現在都沒有移新的過來沒有沒有好 那所以原來教育部跟衛福部關於兒少的部分中間切的那一條線以後不會有問題"},{"start":7131.066,"end":7147.2,"text":"比如說我們現在對這個托嬰托育三歲以下就是在衛福部然後三歲以上的在教育部目前是這樣的切法所以未來這個署成例也是用這樣的做法來進行所以"},{"start":7147.847,"end":7169.542,"text":"民眾要分得清楚兒童有分三歲以下 也有分三歲以上三歲以上的兒童的保護是相關保護還是在 保護相關你給他教育部是怎樣找的就是說有一個四歲的小朋友他一年後去幼兒園 怎麼樣 這相關"},{"start":7173.764,"end":7192.305,"text":"相關的直接的保護的業務在我們但是機構的管理的部分我們會跟教育部一起來你說這樣就很含糊了我講七歲 小學生小一 小二一號去用霸凌"},{"start":7193.653,"end":7198.557,"text":"回去跟家人 因為一天去跟爸人回去幾星期他們老伯老婦看了幾星期怎麼都這樣有的老伯老婦就去問阿豪有的老伯老婦問孩子說你如果拍成這樣是要給他們收罰繼續再拍"},{"start":7209.622,"end":7212.525,"text":"還要撐兩條事情嘛 對吧一直處理 去弄壞的家庭的部分現在聽起來幾年關了 對現在如果是學校 去同學大家玩遊戲 怎麼去玩 去玩的時候這還要整個教育部關了 對"},{"start":7225.417,"end":7243.576,"text":"像這樣的案例很清楚對個案的保護 家庭的支持這個是我們的業務但是他在學校還有輔導的部分包含被霸凌的跟霸凌人家的那個都要在學校裡面做輔導那個就是教育部的因為這個時候要有界面"},{"start":7244.981,"end":7271.995,"text":"對 這個介面那你們既然成立了這一個署不再私下面的科了既然成立署人員也比較多啦那預算應該比較獨立比較獨立那比較專職者的計畫也比較容易推動所以這一部分我是建議你們一定要主動出來處理不然你告訴教育部的也是沒有互相業務刷來刷去也是拆下去"},{"start":7274.176,"end":7277.958,"text":"切下去之後 臨江真的還有事情的時候我社會很不喜歡看說 衛福部衛福部說沒有 這是兒童事件 跟我們沒有關係社會說沒有 這條是教育部的事情教育部說沒有 這條是台北市教育局的事情這樣 社會如果看到這是"},{"start":7297.538,"end":7317.877,"text":"很難看到所以成立這個新的單位怕不算過去以後有一些業務移過去之後希望這個能夠更加的明確好我們是支持你們這樣的一個調整就是預算你能夠自己獨立也有獨立的計畫然後組織編制也擴大但是不要再讓社會它看了這個事情大家還要撒來撒去"},{"start":7322.561,"end":7333.447,"text":"謝謝委員 朝四全合一然後跨部門合作來努力謝謝謝謝王一川委員詢答接下來請王宏威委員來做詢答好 謝謝主席我請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":7346.516,"end":7374.701,"text":"王委員好部長好其實今天的委員會有很多的委員都關心到就是在高雄市所發生的一個可以算是一種堅守自盜而且這個案件其實真的是已經到了人神共憤的一個階段這個案子雖然它是發生在高雄市地方的衛生局但是它的處理"},{"start":7376.201,"end":7396.155,"text":"引起外界的詬病跟質疑所以我在這邊想要請問我們中央主管機關以高雄市衛生局它所做的處置大家特別提到因為它是在去年8月8月的時候是地檢署開始調查"},{"start":7397.176,"end":7402.919,"text":"但是它發生時間是在去年的6月這裡面還發生他性侵之後他還去考什麼相關的叫做什麼犯罪防治的措施"},{"start":7415.505,"end":7436.083,"text":"那麼現在以高雄市衛生局他的處理也就是他一直等到新聞曝光之後他才做裁罰而且根據高雄市政府社會局的公告他是在1月5日才公告"},{"start":7438.204,"end":7450.09,"text":"1月2號做裁罰那麼這個時間事實上已經長達將近半年之久所以我想請問主管機關以高雄市政府針對這個案例"},{"start":7453.172,"end":7479.035,"text":"符不符合SOP因為這個我們不敢說它是第一件以後可能也有類似的案件那是不是地方主管機關都可以押這麼久押長達將近半年之久然後才在媒體報導之後你才做處理 才做裁罰 才做公開所以我想請問一下部長高雄市政府針對這個案例符不符合你們所認為的SOP"},{"start":7480.717,"end":7499.479,"text":"跟委員報據我們事後的了解呢那麼這個高雄市政府是在8月的時候解聘了這一個這個所謂的這個執行秘書那麼後續呢他所做的裁罰還有移送懲戒這個程序上"},{"start":7500.68,"end":7524.597,"text":"是不是能够更快这个我们会来跟这个地方来共同检讨你们到目前为止没有跟高雄市卫生局检讨这件事吗我们目前所做的检讨是在系统性的这个资讯系统的安全跟它的授权那么希望能够更明确的部长这个裁罚时间会不会太晚我们当然是希望应该要更快了"},{"start":7525.836,"end":7547.724,"text":"所以這裁判時間太晚據我們詢問的結果是因為這中間在一副懲戒的過程當中因為這個當事人被羈押進鑑所以沒有辦法進行進一步的這個懲戒的程序的約談他什麼時候一副懲戒他是十月的時候一副懲戒十月才一副懲戒"},{"start":7548.604,"end":7564.03,"text":"所以這個事情事實上讓6月發生他可能這個高雄市政府不能在第一時間他掌握但是至少檢調開始調查8月然後8月解聘他到10月才移赴懲戒這個時間沒有拖延嗎"},{"start":7568.94,"end":7587.088,"text":"當然我們認為也可以更快一點所以我們會來跟大家一起檢討沒有 所以我特別講這件事情因為有可能它發生在其他的縣市那如果今天我們中央主管機關不拿出我們的一個SOP來那大家以後有樣學樣啊都等到這個媒體報導之後壓不住了我現在才來做裁罰 才來做公告"},{"start":7593.47,"end":7610.52,"text":"所以這件事情應該要有一個SOP同不同意同意同意那你們現在有建立SOP嗎我們過去當然都是尊重這個地方政府在執行上的程序但是這個實效上我們並沒有明確的決定"},{"start":7611.54,"end":7633.397,"text":"有一個事情我想就教於部長這個事情當然在政治層面上很多的高雄市議員要求衛生局長下台高雄市衛生局長下台結果昨天高雄市衛生局長發了一個一千多字的長文他講他說他忍辱負重我們不曉得他在忍辱什麼他在負重什麼"},{"start":7634.198,"end":7656.433,"text":"他事實上在講說我自己做的很多我忍辱負重但是他其中在這一千多字的長文裡面他竟然提到說他說為什麼半年來我們都沒有對外說明社會去質疑我們隱瞞他說要容我說明他說被害人是自殺高風險個案還有複雜的家庭問題處於隨時情緒不穩定的危險狀態"},{"start":7661.638,"end":7675.788,"text":"部長請問一下身為衛生局主管機關今天為了這個案子他要來做說明他可以去揭露被害人不管他個人或家庭的這些資訊嗎可以嗎"},{"start":7677.288,"end":7688.764,"text":"這當然在我們相關的法規裡面對被害人都有各自保護的義務這個是法律明定所以這個有一個兒少的問題對不對兒少法的問題有沒有"},{"start":7692.669,"end":7707.466,"text":"有沒有違反兒少法的問題這個是性侵防治法在性侵防治法裡面對於被害人我們有保護他各自的義務所以這個是性侵的案例所以他也有違反各自法的問題嗎"},{"start":7709.972,"end":7735.241,"text":"個資法有沒有他沒有揭露他的詳細個資啦不過當然我們這個在處理上是對於這個個人的資料要給予就是他個人的一個個人的身心狀態他的家庭狀態我們其實身為主管機關更有保密的義務對不對對 主管機關當然所有的執法人員都有保密的義務這個發文適當嗎"},{"start":7739.983,"end":7764.923,"text":"我看了一下他這個發言裡面是沒有特別是針對哪一個人他說被害者他講被害人他只是在說明說因為在這個事件的過程當中考量到這個被害人是這個自殺的高風險個案所以不宜對外去揭露說明避免造成另一個壓力這個是"},{"start":7766.184,"end":7782.738,"text":"可是我們原來外界並不曉得被害人他的家庭的狀態他個人身心的狀態而局長既然為了要自己卸責可以發文這張內容沒有 有沒有違法問題我再確定 有沒有違法問題"},{"start":7784.506,"end":7796.311,"text":"還是你認為只有不適當問題因為他並沒有指明是哪一位啦他只是提到說他是一個高風險的個案但是沒有特別指明是哪一位"},{"start":7797.41,"end":7825.665,"text":"部長 所以我們政治層面歸政治層面我更認為他其實應該下台早在台灣叼的烏龍的驗藥的事件他就已經很多人就認為他應該負起政治責任那他這次仍然不下台這是他的政治選擇但是我們身為主管機關我們要保護被害人而不是為了自己卸責竟然還自己發文去暴露被害人的家庭的"},{"start":7826.545,"end":7848.713,"text":"因素或者他的個人的身心狀態我覺得這是非常非常第一個不道德而且不適宜甚至有違法之嫌所以我覺得在這件事件上我希望主管機關不管是SOP也好或者針對主管機關或主管本身他們的作為中央要拿出態度來我有我說了"},{"start":7849.453,"end":7873.519,"text":"這可能不是第一個案例以後也有可能再發生在其他的縣市如果高雄市可以這樣搞其他縣市是不是也可以這樣子吃案押案然後推諉謝責甚至有洩露一些個資的相關的這些資料所以拜託我們真的要去保護被害人防度未來的事件主管機關一定要拿出相關的辦法好不好"},{"start":7875.2,"end":7881.667,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員的詢問我們接下來請翁曉琳委員來做詢問"},{"start":7901.257,"end":7912.454,"text":"好 謝謝張偉這邊有請石部長有請石部長還有張秋元副人事長副人事長請"},{"start":7916.991,"end":7945.796,"text":"好 謝謝部長跟副人事長那麼今天因為主要是涉及到就是衛福部要多成立兩個三級機關一個兒少署還有一個長照社會署那麼在這邊的話本席想請教因為依照人事總署的報告有說現在三級機關的這個局跟署在總數不變的情況之下然後可以自行做調整是不是請教張副"},{"start":7946.776,"end":7967.387,"text":"人事長意思是這樣嗎好謝謝委員的詢問那現在三級機關這個屬局的總數是71個那現在是這個滿的狀態那會不會這次調整是在他原來的配置底下去做一個"},{"start":7968.067,"end":7987.078,"text":"所以好那請教那個部長所以你們現在是在你們既有的三級機關裡面有五個署一個局所以你們是在這五個署一個局裡面然後再去增加兩個署還是說你們是把社會家庭署看起來是要把它拆解成為多兩個一個署變成兩個署"},{"start":7991.099,"end":8008.126,"text":"跟委員說明我們在本來我們的組織配置裡面是五署一局但是那個局是還沒有設立那個是預留的就是國民年金局那我們現在把這個局就不再設立了我們設立這個兒少級家庭支持署"},{"start":8008.846,"end":8024.152,"text":"那另外我們現有的這個社會及家庭署我們把這個裡面的一些業務移到了這個兒少然後再把一些長照的業務移入所以變成長照及社會發展署"},{"start":8024.352,"end":8051.197,"text":"是 謝謝部長的解釋所以你的本心了解就是你們還是在系有的三級機關就是六個的總數底下然後去做組織的一些調整但是國民年金局你們不打算成立嗎為什麼不成立目前的國民年金的業務的話就會在這個社會及家庭署裡面這個長照及社會發展署裡頭"},{"start":8053.752,"end":8073.937,"text":"但是這應該是兩個不同型態的業務吧我們目前的國民年金有一個監理會我們現在是有一個國民年金監理會做監理的業務那另外國民年金的這個法制的部分是在社會級就是社保司社會保險司裡頭"},{"start":8075.317,"end":8098.991,"text":"社會保險司的業務裡面把有關於健保的法規的部分移回到健保署然後國民年金的法規的部分移到因為今天聽您這樣講我會重新再回去看當時為什麼在衛福部組織法裡面要設立國民年金局的主要的立法理由是什麼"},{"start":8099.671,"end":8126.776,"text":"那麼難道就是因為要多成立一個長照署所以就把國民年金局給刪掉那麼這個業務的整併有沒有道理那麼我這個本席還會再多進行研究但是就除了就是你們講的這個要多成立兩個署之外還有在這次的報告裡面以及今天要審的法案本來要審的法案就是有涉及到就既有限衛福部底下一些組織要轉型成為行政法人"},{"start":8127.817,"end":8144.232,"text":"對 但你要轉型成行政法人這裡面就是有沒有一些有這個組織有疊床架屋的問題譬如說前面的委員有提到叫你們要新成立國家醫療評估中心那事實上國家醫療評估中心可能跟既有的本就是我們現在"},{"start":8145.673,"end":8162.018,"text":"這個政府部門裡面有一些單位是很類似的譬如說有這個財團法人生物技術開發中心或者是工研院他也有做一些醫療照顧或是新藥等等這些研究所以有沒有必要再去成立一個國家醫療評估中心在難道沒有跌床架屋的問題嗎"},{"start":8163.098,"end":8186.221,"text":"跟委員說明 目前在健保要考慮要不要納入給付之前都要先經過醫療科技就是HTA醫療科技的評估那目前都是委託財團法人來某一個財團法人就是我們現在是CDE醫藥品查驗中心這個財團法人來做那都等於是委託的性質那未來希望他有獨立性"},{"start":8187.262,"end":8214.686,"text":"所以就剛剛有幾位委員也提到那麼以其他的國家這個是獨立性的了解了 謝謝部長因為我想就是說有沒有成立的必要這個部分的話當然就是可能衛福部有衛福部的看法但是本席更在意的是說你不管說今天要成立一個新的國家醫療評估中心或者是未來這個中醫研究所要改轉型成為國家中醫研究院那到底需要多少的公務預算來支持這些行政法人"},{"start":8216.231,"end":8241.719,"text":"你要拼多少的预算跟委员报告就是说这两个行政他们可以做到自给自足吗这个一方面他当然也会有一些这个比如说在做医药科技评估的时候的预算那么还是会有政府的支持因为这个是健保要纳入支付但是基本上不要多增加政府的预算就本席的看法就是说是你要转型成为多成立这些行政法人"},{"start":8243.48,"end":8259.727,"text":"我也沒有太大的意見但重點是說會不會增加政府的預算支出我們現在很多的預算都要希望能夠用在刀口上不要再多增加政府的預算支出所以這部分的話可能要請就是部長您在這裡再提供給我更仔細的一個"},{"start":8260.707,"end":8267.03,"text":"報告就是如果依照你們現在的評估要成立這兩個中心那麼實際上要多少錢的預算來支應以及這兩個行政法人成立之後未來他們怎麼樣從哪個地方可以獲得充裕的財源來自給自足這部分話請部長可能"},{"start":8280.718,"end":8299.79,"text":"兩個禮拜之內給我一份報告對於這個財務的規劃接下來我還有一個問題我也想請教部長因為剛剛其實大家也都談到高雄新衛之郎那本席其實在這裡比較關心的就是說對於他的這個主管就是上級主管新衛中心的主任"},{"start":8301.011,"end":8326.693,"text":"還有高雄市的衛生局局長那麼以及這個督導他的妻子因為他是任職在社會局加防中心他還利用職權洩密然後查詢偵辦進度等等對於這三個人你們目前有沒有知道就是你們有沒有給他們有些懲處的機制你們有給他懲處的處分嗎請問中心的主任有沒有被懲處全線都是在地方政府"},{"start":8327.526,"end":8343.633,"text":"全縣的部分在地方證據我們的了解呢這個殖密在8月的時候已經由這個地方政府已經把它解聘了已經停聘撤職那對於新聞中心的主任呢他的上級的主管"},{"start":8344.793,"end":8363.005,"text":"您說行衛中心的主任我們被懲處在他們的內部上是他們內部要去做的檢討就全責的部分只是檢討而已嗎行衛中心的主任還有高雄市衛生局局長衛生局局長是不是衛福部你們是他的主管機關上級機關"},{"start":8365.745,"end":8370.81,"text":"他是這個政務官是在地方政府的權責所以對於衛生局局長行為中心主任以及督導他的妻子因為他在加防中心相關目前的有沒有予以懲處的"},{"start":8381.941,"end":8398.106,"text":"的一些作為我也希望衛福部這邊也可以給我一份資料了解知道說他們的情況是怎麼樣然後最後還有一題就是因為我們馬上年關將近就進入到農曆的春節在去年的時候我們看到春節的急診室"},{"start":8400.066,"end":8418.364,"text":"非常的庸塞病床不足那麼請問部長這邊有沒有針對馬上二月就要來臨的春節對於目前急診室的處理的問題還有病床數的部分衛福部有沒有新的計畫"},{"start":8418.985,"end":8435.277,"text":"有 我們已經召開了好幾次的會議那也擬定了很多的措施是那包含在這個春節的加開診的這個鼓勵還有在這個你們預計增加多少的病床數預計增加多少病床數增加"},{"start":8436.057,"end":8456.782,"text":"應該是這樣過去在年節期間醫院會縮床因為這個醫護人員也要休息然後有些病人也比較不會就是屬於常規性的沒有急迫性的大概也會選擇不要到醫院所以過去在年節期間大概醫院的床數都是會下降的"},{"start":8457.362,"end":8476.795,"text":"那我們目前在做的調查就是第一個開診的調查這9天的長假當中哪幾天哪些醫院診所會開診第二個床數會開多少所以這個我們目前已經都在進行調查簡單來說你們現在開診數跟病床數會不會比去年增加"},{"start":8477.603,"end":8506.039,"text":"会会增加多少多少的比例呢最后的数字还没有出来不过什么时候会出来什么时候会告诉我们民众因为每年的农历春节正好都会遇到天气寒冷寒流难免生病的人数也会提也会增加但是你刚刚说又顾及到就是医护人员他们也需要放假休假但是我们还是希望在合理的范围里面要提高开诊的诊所然后以及这个病床数"},{"start":8506.459,"end":8529.717,"text":"我們會調控那當然第一個比較好的這個現象是說我們的流感在去年每年的過年期間都是高峰但是今年因為我們的施打率不錯所以目前的流感還在低峰所以往後預估的話應該今年的過年期間的流感的病人不會像往年那麼多這是一個比較好的預估"},{"start":8530.458,"end":8551.766,"text":"只是你們預估但是有時候可能會改不上變化我這邊還是希望部長能夠盡速你們大概什麼時候什麼時候會公布你們會增加病床數我們在月底之前就會通通月底之前好 那本席期待希望你們能夠如期做到好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員關心好 謝謝翁曉琳委員接下來我們請盧憲一委員有請部長好 請時部長"},{"start":8562.211,"end":8590.758,"text":"吳委員好部長好這幾天我們在告訴你一些比較不幸的消息就是說我們12月份有一個文建站的負責人因為在主持成果展的時候倒下去他目前是呈現就是大概是臥床的狀態然後有一個就是我們新義鄉新義鄉村的村長就要前天告別是因為他在主持一個槌球運動會的時候也是倒下去就送到醫院就不治"},{"start":8591.318,"end":8619.638,"text":"那昨天呢我們有處理到一個在金門工作的族人然後腦溢血71年次的一個婦女然後今年急救以後送到台北榮總然後今天要把管回家我主要要講的這些提到這些問題就是說我們一直在講平均與面差距這麼多我們到底要用哪一個層級的來處理這些我們原住民的健康的議題所以我們一直在講要有一個專責單位"},{"start":8621.119,"end":8649.54,"text":"講了這麼久我們看看原住民主基本法已經成立二十年了結果我們的自治還是躺在那裡從蔡英文總統還有陳水扁總統都說很重視原住民我們也相信也肯定過去我們公衛體系對弱勢族群的健康照顧可是這些我覺得都還是不夠原住民主健康法已經公佈兩年了他說一個專責單位我想知道說是崇良部長你內心的想法"},{"start":8651.427,"end":8668.501,"text":"跟委員報告其實在行政院的層級就已經有原住民委員會它就是一個獨立的機關它是一個二級的單位在健康的部分當然就是由衛福部來負全責"},{"start":8669.882,"end":8689.444,"text":"所以我們希望專責單位能夠提升到屬的層級因為它目前還是屬於我們護理及健康照護師下面的一個援助民主及離島健康科的一個層級所以你要處理這些我剛才所講的顯著的健康不平等現在的層級沒有辦法去"},{"start":8690.305,"end":8705.603,"text":"處理我們剛剛一直在說的你要成立比如說在南橫地區要成立洗腎室在偏鄉地區要成立分醫院花東地區的一個因為地理的關係常常就是因為救命沒有辦法救到然後我們現在的離島醫院的一個"},{"start":8706.624,"end":8723.896,"text":"設立的時候它確實是需要跨部會的一個努力還有獨特的照護需求我們的長期照顧的一個文化的敏感度文化安全這些都需要一個專責單位來統一來處理不然現在我就說就關一個園民會或者是我們現在的"},{"start":8724.476,"end":8753.275,"text":"貴科裡面我覺得他們會疲於奔命而且是沒有看到顯著的效應我希望部長能夠確確實實的從這次的一個修法的契機裡面我提了第二條 第五條 第八條這個修法裡面能夠做一個組織改造我們期待這次有兒家署也有照發署我是在大概第五條的部分有成立然後希望能夠在第七款這邊能夠成立援助民主健康照顧署"},{"start":8754.196,"end":8761.007,"text":"我希望有一個對話的空間是讓我們這件事情能夠有下一步"},{"start":8762.903,"end":8781.838,"text":"對於原住民族健康的關注我們絕對是會放更多的資源跟關注不過我們也同樣的關注離島 偏鄉所以這些都是整個體制上我們都要去建立的所以在原住民的特殊性上我們有一個"},{"start":8784.22,"end":8805.633,"text":"這個護理及健康照護師裡面有一個科那這個科到底一個科夠不夠需不需要再更多的資源人力來投入呢我們都會一時俱進地去檢討不過整個整個健康照護上絕對是這個跨部門跨單位啦從健康的促進到醫療的照護到這個保險到長照這個我們"},{"start":8811.038,"end":8818.795,"text":"在整個部裡面一定會來負起原住民族健康的責任所以請委員放心"},{"start":8819.672,"end":8845.887,"text":"對 只是說我還是從你的回答裡面可以聽到說很像第二條的專責機構你還是維持在我們的科的層級這是讓人遺憾那我們這個組織法草案我的第二條有看到一些我們的九大職長就是無論從政策法規健康不平等調查健康資源的佈建人才教育醫療整合健康資料庫長期照顧國際交流這些我希望這些議題裡面"},{"start":8848.308,"end":8872.467,"text":"在目前如果只是在科的層級上的話希望部長能夠對這些議題能夠多所著墨讓我們原住民的這些健康不平等還有我們的平均餘命能夠確實的得到改善 謝謝這個絕對在這每一個範圍裡頭都會特別關注到原住民的特殊性好 謝謝部長謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝盧憲一委員接下來我們請沈發慧委員"},{"start":8886.997,"end":8913.722,"text":"好 主席我們請 石部長石部長請申委員好部長早我想我們今天委員會所安排大概有六個法案這六個法案大概都是主要就是因為我們有關衛福部的組織架構的調整所以有這六個法案我看這六個法案裡面我們衛福部的組織架構調整大概是新設兩個"},{"start":8916.383,"end":8941.903,"text":"這個三級機關就是兒少級家庭支持署跟長照級社會發展署這兩個三級機關另外這個新設一個行政法人就是國家醫療科技評估中心這個新設的行政法人另外是國家中醫研究院的一個改制大概就是比較大的重點大概是這個其他更名跟法治處這個問題比較小"},{"start":8944.585,"end":8948.507,"text":"有關兒少及家庭自治署還有長照跟社會發展署這兩個新設機構都是賴總統在選舉的時候所提出的政見"},{"start":8961.853,"end":8985.301,"text":"現在在希望說能夠透過這次的修法能夠落實這樣子的想法那這部分我們一定是全力支持的那至於這兩個一個改制的一個新設的這兩個這兩個這個行政法人這部分我大概今天有一些中間有一些細節我想就跟署長這邊來了解一下首先是有關這個國家醫療科技評估中心這個新設單位"},{"start":8989.044,"end":9001.183,"text":"這個大概就是依照全民健保法第42條的第一項跟第二項有關這些相關的評估我們都設置國家醫療科技評估中心來加以規範"},{"start":9003.667,"end":9023.263,"text":"所以我也參考其實這個東西我也參考其他世界各國因為現在我們的限制現在這個是在國家醫療科技評估中心現在目前是一個附屬的單位是一個附屬的單位專案辦公室對 它只是一個辦公室"},{"start":9023.723,"end":9043.523,"text":"那我看這全世界對照全世界基本上不管英國 加拿大 韓國 德國 法國 日本這些都是一些獨立的機構或者一些專責機構只是我們現在還是一個副主單位所以我想這樣子的改制最主要是希望能夠提高我們HTA的量能還有提高它的影響力"},{"start":9047.226,"end":9067.151,"text":"這個部分但是有一個重點也是一般現在目前社會以及這個相關的這些業界大家比較關心的就是說我們從這個從我們今天送出來法案這設置條例的第三條我們來看有關於這些這詳列我們中心應該辦理的這些醫療科技評估政策研究人才培育國際合作諮詢等等相關業務"},{"start":9068.491,"end":9092.389,"text":"這些相關的對於這些評估的結果是不是對外公開在我們這個規範裡面沒有是不是能夠請部長說明一下未來這些評估是不是能夠對外公開跟委員報告我們目前對於這個健保要收載的這個新藥或新科技的醫療科技評估報告是有公開目前就有公開所以未來在執行這些的時候也一樣會做公開這個絕對沒有問題那這個公開是只有這個"},{"start":9098.694,"end":9111.903,"text":"這個對於這個醫界並有團體社會大眾他是指公開結論呢還是包括他評估方法資料來源所有重要假設這些通通一定公開就是整份的報告不是只有結論就是整份的報告我們在網路上公開"},{"start":9112.743,"end":9136.855,"text":"都會公開因為這個沒有在法條裡面呈現所以這各界比較關心所以這部分我就是很高興今天署長 部長都在這邊做清楚的說明那接下來這個另外一個就是我們這次要改制的這個國家中醫研究院我們的國家中醫研究院過去其實在民國40幾年那時候就在教育那時候一開始是隸屬於教育部"},{"start":9139.158,"end":9142.307,"text":"到2013年我們才改立衛福部"},{"start":9145.32,"end":9170.291,"text":"這個我比較這個其實設置這個國家中醫研究院這個部分其實它最真正的根據是來自憲法徵修條文憲法徵修條文的第十條第五項它就明白規定說國家應該促進現代跟傳統醫藥研究發展是以這個憲法這個徵修條文為依據但是我這裡面比較有興趣的就是說跟改之前跟改之後有一個部分特別"},{"start":9171.972,"end":9182.688,"text":"注意到這是在我們的這個設置條例的草案第三條的第一項裡面提到說中醫這個醫療業務之執行這本院的業務範圍包括醫療業務之執行"},{"start":9188.649,"end":9210.92,"text":"也就是未來會不會有門診你未來這個是有輻射醫院嗎有沒有門診這個部分我想要講清楚因為如果有就跟現在的限制很不一樣囉對對就是跟委員也說明確實這個委員非常的仔細的看到我們未來現在的在機關我們現在是一個機關中醫藥研究所他只單純就是"},{"start":9211.84,"end":9238.629,"text":"單純就是研究而已可是在研究的過程需要做臨床試驗所以他我們現在都採取合作的方式但是未來如果能夠透過行政法人那麼讓用人更有彈性那未來有需要的時候也可以我們預留了空間可能也可以設立這個附屬的這個醫療院所以你現在變成要執行醫療業務未來是不是設置門診是不是提供是變成一個提供醫療服務的機構"},{"start":9240.229,"end":9261.887,"text":"这个就很不一样了你如果说提供一个有提供医疗服务的机构的话未来是医疗的机构还是附设的医院还是研究单位还是一个临床的场域这个都完全是不一样他是不是会纳入医疗法的规范等等的相关的这些问题其实就牵涉蛮大这部分是我看到我们未来这次改制可能特别"},{"start":9262.788,"end":9285.928,"text":"特別注意我特別注意到這個部分這部分希望是不是有完整的配套或者說只是預留目前什麼配套都還沒有只是預留在法案預留這個空間而已其實這個八字都一點都還沒有還沒有還沒有那如果未來未來真的要設置相關的醫療機構那我想又是大問題了我們會再詳細的評估"},{"start":9291.112,"end":9295.073,"text":"謝謝沈發慧委員接下來我們請吳思瑤委員謝謝代理主席我川威武 阿川益委員 謝謝有請部長部長請"},{"start":9318.957,"end":9341.823,"text":"吳委員早部長辛苦了今天的六項法案都有關衛福部的組織改造不管是改制不管是升格我想我們突顯了有了新的組織有了新的員額有了新的人力都是要強化我們在各該領域的政策要提升"},{"start":9342.683,"end":9356.579,"text":"但是呢 有了新組織 有了新人力沒有預算的整座海寮寮 下一頁我盤點了我們對於今天的其中很重要的兒家屬"},{"start":9357.5,"end":9376.22,"text":"對 對 對"},{"start":9376.46,"end":9383.225,"text":"那從2016年蔡英文總統從馬英九總統接下政權到現在成長了6.8倍150億攀升到2016億來投入0到6歲國家養那長照3.0成長了多少"},{"start":9394.813,"end":9423.606,"text":"那個更高那麼在105年的時候當年度是49.7億的50億左右到明年的話會突破1000億對 2026年1153億長照3.0 1153億換言之我們執政成長了23倍那搭配今天要成立新的組織都再一次揚顯少子化跟長照是我們的重中之重好 下一頁"},{"start":9424.466,"end":9453.545,"text":"但我們就來看看我聽您盤點了一下你知道今年總預算到現在還沒審查喔2992億受衝擊裡頭衛福部是重度的受災戶我們擺第四名啦國防部當然首當其衝國防預算780億美金美當是第一名第二名受衝擊的我這是以預算的金額的高低經濟部第二名交通部第三名衛福部第四名這種榜上有名都是壞事"},{"start":9454.626,"end":9479.982,"text":"因為錢就沒辦法開沒辦法贏所以不管是加總起來總預算受影響或是乃至於一般性補助款受影響我們的衛福部都是Top 5前五名那現在怎麼辦呢夏業我相信我們的委員今天站在這裡部分黨派都會支持我們衛福部的組織改制只要我們把少子化對策把長照大家關心的事情能夠真的做到位"},{"start":9480.842,"end":9502.463,"text":"但是就預算論預算你們187.2億沒有辦法動之的預算會嚴重的衝擊了就是我剛講的這兩個新興的重要的政策面向下業好 您簡要的告訴我們當然大家關心新生兒的預算要補貼到一胎10萬"},{"start":9504.105,"end":9532.988,"text":"那我们受影响就是42亿没办法用影响的新生儿是多少数量新生儿因为我们去年来算的话大概是10万多不到11万那没有办法动之的预算呢我大概算了一下大概是7100位7100位新生儿乃至于新手爸妈就领不到这个一胎领到10万补助的政府的福利"},{"start":9533.869,"end":9543.813,"text":"第二個公托各縣政府各縣市政府都在爭取公托受影響不能致用的預算是14億會有幾處沒有辦法設你們盤點過詳細的數字好大概49處以上"},{"start":9552.236,"end":9575.501,"text":"那健康台灣的部分您可不可以清楚的告訴大家就防疫就智慧醫療就藥物韌性的部分會承受什麼樣的負面影響跟委員報告其實我們在今年有很多的新興計畫要進行因應著整個全球關稅貿易的改變所以我們有藥品韌性的整備計畫這個是四年240億那麼今年就已經編列"},{"start":9580.662,"end":9603.939,"text":"就19億受影響了就已經近20億了那另外為了這個新興傳染病的問題我們有這個One Health全球防疫一體的計畫那麼這個計畫也是今年要啟動的那這個是完全新興的所以沒有審查預算是完全無法23億的疫苗產業防疫整備也沒有啊完全不能夠"},{"start":9605.322,"end":9622.773,"text":"那智慧醫療的時代來了智慧醫療20億在我們的科技預算裡頭要推動的這個智慧醫療那麼還有這個長照3.0也是今年要啟動的裡面有一些部分的預算那麼會影響到所以這是一個中整的數字"},{"start":9623.453,"end":9645.267,"text":"所以從新生兒42億生育補助領不到地方的公托家園公設托嬰中心49處以上沒有辦法新設因為14億不能用乃至於您剛剛說的健康台灣生根計畫新年度70億從防疫的準備到智慧醫療到藥物韌性全遭殃下一頁"},{"start":9647.128,"end":9663.508,"text":"所以我要今天花了一點時間整理出這些數字當然也非常謝謝民間的團體我們站出來發聲以近十年來我們的托嬰中心的收托人數成長了十年成長了三萬多人成長率是3.2倍"},{"start":9667.432,"end":9684.782,"text":"所以說這是一個對的政策政府來扶植廣設拖曳中心來協助新手爸媽進行有品質的拖曳這是數字會說話所以我們要支持設更多的公托中心下一頁如果新年度的預算還不省14億的預算沒了"},{"start":9685.783,"end":9701.385,"text":"六都你看不分藍綠各個縣市每一年都在努力中央地方協力來增加公托你看各縣市都在拼公托的設置加速所以中央的預算卻下不去因為沒有錢夏業"},{"start":9704.083,"end":9726.575,"text":"49家N處是現在盤點出來如果藍白在野委員總預算不省公托的預算不到位已經可以算得出來從彰化台南屏東台中新北市等等會有至少49處的公托設施這是已經有計劃的就沒有辦法補助他成立了"},{"start":9727.737,"end":9747.248,"text":"加N的意思是我們還有多的9.46億是可以供地方政府再來申請再來申請可以提計劃所以49加N的公托設施為什麼在野黨的委員不讓預算通過甚至連審查都不審呢最後一頁長照"},{"start":9748.568,"end":9756.974,"text":"長照雖然編在基金啦但是長照在新的一年度我們的預算也來到1100多億總預算如果不省大概230.5億的長照預算"},{"start":9760.003,"end":9789.363,"text":"即便编载基金他一样是新新的新增的预算没有办法支用所以我希望今天也透过这里我们再一次透过我们的答询执政党我们全力的捍卫支持预算我们希望预算要审查如果在野党认为公托不要设这么多你可以减少预算没有关系如果在野党委员认为长照3.0要精进预算也不想给这么高也没有关系可以讨论"},{"start":9790.063,"end":9804.467,"text":"但至少要審查吧至少要審查吧我也真的就今天的法案的審查跟詢答我們可以再一次的見證我相信委員們都支持新社組織來照顧兒少來照顧長者"},{"start":9807.688,"end":9824.919,"text":"但是有了組織 有了緣額 有了人力沒有預算就萬萬不可好 我們繼續努力 繼續遊說讓相關的團體一起站出來為全民的預算來發聲辛苦部長 辛苦大家好 謝謝委員好 謝謝吳思堯委員接下來請羅志強委員來做詢答"},{"start":9846.775,"end":9875.118,"text":"有請石部長請石崇良部長部委員早部長我現在想請教一下我剛剛聽到您跟黃國昌委員在詢答的時候針對行政院犯人說2017年在衛福部就已經有少子女化對策辦公室結果你卻說在屬的時代在部的時代沒有到底是有還是沒有"},{"start":9876.167,"end":9901.284,"text":"在我的印象裡面是沒有成立辦公室來 我想請教一下部長 你知道這是什麼嗎這是衛福部在第九屆第四會期的書面報告衛福部少子女化對策辦公室運作現狀政策目標及達成進度它裡面有一段文字它講本部內部成立少子女化"},{"start":9901.564,"end":9907.549,"text":"部長我是看到什麼奇怪靈異事件嗎你說沒有衛福部的專案報告說有而且還開了六次會到底是有還是沒有"},{"start":9931.708,"end":9951.026,"text":"他看起來我們沒有一個所謂的專案辦公室這是一個像那個專案小組我先跟你講你連標題都是對策辦公室少子女化對策辦公室沒有關係 部長我要跟你說我就要從這件事來看"},{"start":9952.301,"end":9975.995,"text":"我們民進黨政府面對少子女化辦公室的螺絲是掉到什麼程度掉到有少子女化對策辦公室部長你都不知道然後這個單位我想請問六次開會之後有沒有第七次你顯然你不知道因為連有這個辦公室我看都不知道這個是在過去2017年沒有過去多久民進黨執政民進黨執政"},{"start":9979.382,"end":10001.78,"text":"白紙黑字啊106年10月16號就是你們的專案報告但是沒關係我要跟部長強調一個重點這是證明了一件事情嘛民進黨這個拯救少子女化根本是打假球嘛打假球假到說今天主管部會不知道自己有少子女化對策辦公室你們的發言人還說有"},{"start":10003.517,"end":10029.155,"text":"結果你在這邊跟我講沒有跟委員說明少子女化的對策都是跨部會的所以他的這個行動層級是在院的層級都是重點就是衛福部就有嘛你的標題都有嘛這個我不跟部長你爭論啦重點是什麼不過說實在話有跟沒有我覺得也沒差啦為什麼因為民進黨執政十年生不如死啊"},{"start":10030.643,"end":10047.161,"text":"你有沒有這個少子女化的對策辦公室有影響到我們今天台灣在民進黨執政之下真到全世界第一名嗎第一名不是光榮的第一名出生率最低第一名部長你覺得這很容易嗎有沒有很容易"},{"start":10050.091,"end":10073.323,"text":"第一名很容易嗎生育率的下降確實這個是很嚴峻那它的因素也很多因素當然很多可是你要爭到全世界第一名我真的覺得也是萬分佩服我沒有怪部長你因為你也算是上任沒多久我要講的是整個民進黨執政也十年了來來來 我跟您講少子女化當然是個趨勢"},{"start":10074.944,"end":10085.381,"text":"全球皆然嘛但是拿到第一名坦白講不容易啦要表揚啦全世界都在有面臨尤其是比較發展的國家有面臨少子女化的問題這個是事實"},{"start":10087.082,"end":10106.067,"text":"但是你可以少到拿到全球第一名那就是民進黨執政了不起的地方啊來你來看這個什麼叫做少子女化什麼叫儲身率總儲身率的下降近20年你從20年起算的1.12請問你知道總儲身率在20年的最高峰是在哪一年嗎"},{"start":10107.819,"end":10134.155,"text":"過去這20年最高峰我不清楚要再查一下最高峰2012年啊國民黨執政啊1.27啊請問去年是多少總出生率去年因為還沒有結算前年的話是到0.870.87嘛對你覺得今年結算一下去年結算一下你覺得更高更低啊不會"},{"start":10136.167,"end":10164.96,"text":"所以我要跟你講你看到嘛全世界這幾十年的趨勢尤其比較發展比較好的國家是往下降沒錯嘛出生率在下跌可是中間曾經在國民黨執政有一度反轉從這邊反轉到高點然後一直到民進黨執政直接雪崩式崩盤然後我要再想請教你你知道我們台灣什麼時候正式進入生不如死的時代"},{"start":10165.902,"end":10191.799,"text":"就是出生人數低於死亡人數哪一年開始正式進入到生不如死時代2020年啦2020年出生16萬死亡17萬生不如死我要特別說今天為什麼大家關心所謂的搶救少子女化的問題你從一開始"},{"start":10195.169,"end":10220.818,"text":"辦公室的成立結果我就發現就變成羅生門這就是讓大家覺得是非常非常疑惑的事情如果辦公室成立行政院跟衛福部你都搞不清楚的時候那只能證明這辦公室真的是可有可無我要請我們衛福部給我一個報告好不好你給我報告一下說請問你這份報告裡面開了六次會議後第七次會議是什麼時候開的"},{"start":10222.097,"end":10250.847,"text":"還是就今天放個煙火開了六次會之後報告做完以後就沒消沒息沒消沒息靜悄悄到部長你不知道有這個辦公室存在國民黨跟民眾黨我們現在有提出台灣未來帳戶的計畫我要特別講這是語重心長如果在放任民進黨搞這種生不如死的政策下去就像馬斯克說的他講南韓搞下去幾代以後人就沒有了"},{"start":10252.069,"end":10256.619,"text":"國家沒有未來啦你出聲音再降下去國家哪裡有未來拜託部長喔"},{"start":10257.964,"end":10286.409,"text":"我们再努力一点好不好我们会做最大的努力过去也做了很多的努力所以刚刚前面在不论是在这个鼓励生育的补助也好或者是在养育生育的补助津贴托育等等都益助了很多非常谢谢部长我还是最后告诉你但是这个结果没有反映出来我们确实需要持续的在你们真的我们养殖证10年很努力我努力看到拿到全世界第一名"},{"start":10287.403,"end":10294.926,"text":"真的不容易啦200多個國家拿到第一名真是龍賢啦出生率最低第一名真的不容易啦 謝謝好 謝謝羅志強委員羅志強委員 當然你算不錯 你生兩個但是你這個兩個還是不及格啦這個還要再加強接下來 你看蘇清泉生四個你兩個的還講得那麼大聲"},{"start":10314.152,"end":10333.761,"text":"對 那個生不如死也不是這樣用生不如死是說生活實在是很困苦那現代剛好相反現在跟過去的社會來比較的話生活變好了這個少子化就常常因為生活變得太好了所以這個隱喻有一點失癖來 接下來我們有請最專業的蘇青前委員來做詢答謝謝我也是入屆的 我算兩個我們才兩個 兩個 一個"},{"start":10342.93,"end":10346.052,"text":"坐在這一排的都對國家社會有貢獻的來 請好 謝謝主席我們不愧是我們屏東離港出生的正好孩子我們兩個而已 今天你們兩個還拚還拚補定 拜託來 有請石部長"},{"start":10365.124,"end":10374.83,"text":"師傅您好我們台積電派去亞利桑那裡的工程師現在非正式統計已經派成績了這成績有些人找不到去聽說現在懷孕了要生孩子就要三百了他派一個清通的 清理的作用"},{"start":10391.368,"end":10416.855,"text":"所以我的結論是,我們台灣的年輕人不是不會生不是沒能力生,是不敢生所以我們剛才講了很多,講了幾次像莊烈雄做律師有幾個人,所以會死的我會死的,我沒有生,不是說我不會生我從沒變成生的,所以人工生殖法現在正在發生"},{"start":10419.576,"end":10434.088,"text":"來 我要報告的就是說他為什麼在美國他會加薪 他加要用就是他安心 這個是最重要他社會福利支撐過 網子過硬 美國人"},{"start":10438.959,"end":10453.766,"text":"小孩去 太太去留學生留學生去只要一懷孕那他們會通報那他們的社會處只要接到這個已經懷孕的第一件事就是給你列案第二件事就是先來就來先來"},{"start":10456.614,"end":10481.825,"text":"讓你喝到臉紅也倒喝 都喝不完喝到臉 隔壁也要掛在旁邊留學生掛在那裡倒喝是這樣 先來如果不出群聚就讓他喝瘦的那個顧什麼 顧那個孩子那個孩子 留學生也不是美國籍留學生簽證而已因為這些小孩子是整個國家整個世界的未來"},{"start":10482.987,"end":10488.57,"text":"所以你如果有這種支撐你就高升啊你台灣誰要怕不管國民黨接著好了民進黨接著好了就越生越少現在少了三個名字剛才柔子講的第一名是渡兵省三個名字出生率出生率最少這個是我們要深思的啦所以你說十萬塊中央補助十萬塊如果我看要不夠"},{"start":10513.12,"end":10525.988,"text":"我們管路要再補十萬所以我化工二十萬就是這樣來的每個月給六千塊補給小孩子小孩子營養 午餐 免錢這都蓋起碼的了啦 不定另外一個檔案我們的飛機掉下去大家都很不敢那一個飛管一個飛管都開了幾億人生肯定那是什麼"},{"start":10540.478,"end":10555.829,"text":"我看不下去就是不管是國民黨執政我去屏東P3C反前期P3C反前期在屏東成軍我有去參加那個是馬英九執政那個P3C反前期你知不知道"},{"start":10557.585,"end":10564.069,"text":"40年了 40年的飛機引擎換換的 設施換換的就夠了 一隻機人賣我們50個代表我們買了12架那我要講的就是說我們希望我們的飛行員都能開"},{"start":10575.055,"end":10585.883,"text":"新的飛機 好的飛機 而不是用F-16AB那種舊飛機然後upgrade mid-life upgrade往往那些都是舊的飛機 機身跟門批都沒有換所以我們同歸好歷史 同歸歷史我們是要希望美國把我們高興的給我們用新的飛機 這樣對不對"},{"start":10599.292,"end":10627.524,"text":"不然我講的是題外話啦但是我是希望大家都把機器快點找到雖然是很危急好 那今天你的組織變革這個組織要增加大家問了很多我就問兩件第一個就是你的國家科技中心另外一個是國家中醫研究院那我請問你這個科技研究評估中心"},{"start":10628.814,"end":10628.997,"text":"你是要幹什麼"},{"start":10630.883,"end":10658.565,"text":"跟委員說明今天健保要給付因為越來越多這種高貴的藥新藥發展得越來越快但是價格都不便宜但是資源有限所以現在要納入健保之前都按照我們健保法42條的規定會進行醫療科技評估來評估它的成本效益的問題財務的影響還有它可能產生的效益跟社會"},{"start":10659.506,"end":10681.262,"text":"社會經濟的關聯性等等所以這個是醫療科技評估我們現在都是委託一個財團法人在做我們希望未來這個量越來越大專業的人才的需求也越來越多所以把它成立成一個行政法人來協助做健保給付的時候的前端的評估"},{"start":10683.081,"end":10698.899,"text":"所以主要是要核心藥 核癌藥那原來那個藥品查驗基金會藥品查驗登記中心他是負責藥品取證你要上市之前的許可前端的作業"},{"start":10699.58,"end":10721.65,"text":"所以兩個不疊床才有現在是要把它分開讓它兩邊分開不要合成所以新的藥的引進跟新藥的查核會速度會加快對然後要有預期的效果你不要越拖越久越拖越久是因為沒錢所以才一直拖"},{"start":10722.517,"end":10740.241,"text":"我們現在有的需求如果符合我們的醫療需要就是醫療上有缺口的藥我們現在新藥有平行審查一方面在送查驗登記取證的過程就可以來跟健保申請納入給付這樣就縮短了"},{"start":10741.403,"end":10757.937,"text":"所以不管是要健保要給予的或者是要智慧的這要這個中心都要先做就對了那健保現在戶北企業也要在這個中心來審是不是"},{"start":10758.644,"end":10782.283,"text":"他是做這個要不要納入健保幾戶建議的審查但是他的部分有健保的總額還有癌症新藥基金來支持好 儀器呢 儀器沒有新科技 新儀器 新的耗材"},{"start":10783.143,"end":10810.952,"text":"新的 我們現在有一些是智慧衣材有AI功能的那些那些也比較新的東西那也要評估 那也要評估因為有人在質疑說你這個跌床這麼好你這個是在安置你的閒置人力 雇佣沒有吧 沒有這件事情沒有 這是要讓他要羅織更多的專業人才那不是一般的公務員能做的這要專業的人力的培育"},{"start":10811.232,"end":10831.237,"text":"那第二個國家中醫研究院這又要做什麼現在我們有一個是我始終替大家質疑在問的國家中醫藥研究所專門在做研究而已提供一些檢驗方法或者是新藥的研發但是因為受限於公務機關的用人"},{"start":10832.077,"end":10853.801,"text":"這很多也是委員會最清楚很多人才不是用公務系統的禁用所以讓他成為一個國家中醫研究所讓他的人才的羅織可以更廣 有彈性同時讓他去發展從臨床前的研究到臨床的研究"},{"start":10854.301,"end":10872.187,"text":"所以這些研究的科技人才不是用公務人員的資格來聘用所以也不受公務人員的管制所以用人科研活潑他的待遇科研很高那這樣會不會打擊公務人員的士氣"},{"start":10873.633,"end":10893.069,"text":"他的取材來源不一樣比如說有些他是需要博士後研究的人他是要有中醫的背景那個要跟產業競爭要跟外面的用人要去競爭所以他的薪資需要比較彈性不是跟一般的公務員的那個薪給制度相同所以這個是我比較擔心的"},{"start":10894.19,"end":10907.593,"text":"就是說看起來很好但是下去 碰下去 亂下去會不會讓公務員產生不平衡這個是你要注意的地方要小心的地方做的事情不一樣做的事情不一樣"},{"start":10909.818,"end":10929.909,"text":"研發出來也計轉然後會變成產業化所以它那個對整個台灣的中醫藥的發展會很有貢獻我看這個世界十大藥廠他們的研發100個研發能夠成功差不多10件然後能夠上市差不多2000"},{"start":10931.07,"end":10939.292,"text":"所以研發會成功不成功那是未定之數啦 對齁不然你如果說是要做原始的研發其實是要建Dineric來做那是不一樣的所以我們會支持啦但是你這個後面衍生出來的問題你要小心啦好 我們會 這個都要兼顧啦都會兼顧"},{"start":10953.817,"end":10976.277,"text":"好 謝謝石清風委員的發言也謝謝石部長的答詢下一位我們請莊瑞雄召委發言好 謝謝主席有請我們衛福部我們石崇良石部長好 請石部長莊委員好部長 我就問你就好 不要叫那麼多人其實剛剛國民黨委員的質詢那都胡說八道"},{"start":10981.169,"end":11009.023,"text":"我不會說 除了蘇清泉委員講的因為他生了四個小孩所以我給他加冕一下不然 人口每一個國家都希望維持一個人口的穩定所以不能說人口要維持一個替代率多少 2.1% 2.12.1從哪裡就台灣哪裡就已經低於2.1了從1983年人口維持的替代率那個時候就已經低於2.1了"},{"start":11010.851,"end":11013.363,"text":"到馬英九的時候2010年的時候他說 啊 慘了"},{"start":11016.069,"end":11043.358,"text":"台灣少子化會國安危機馬英九在二零一年提出來然後到了哪裡呢提出來這個口號以後毫無對策是到了二零一八年蔡英文總統上來以後才制定了請國安會訂定一個國家少子化的一個政策綱領這為大家說得對那政府一直去做但是有沒有成效看不到"},{"start":11044.458,"end":11057.777,"text":"看不到 如果要講人口政策 你就問我 我很會講英文都沒有補 如果真的要有補我建議大大說 我衛福部長石崇良 現在選補你如果生小孩 我一個人給你一百萬看能不能增加一百萬人"},{"start":11060.834,"end":11063.616,"text":"現在的社會經濟狀況都比過去還要好以前你若不生小孩 社會上會給你壓力小孩生小孩後 有阿公阿嬤會幫你倒床"},{"start":11086.073,"end":11090.878,"text":"以前多生一輩子 我就多生一雙小孩小孩就算了 像我們小孩在那裡也沒有人管我們在整個村子 大家說好了你知道嗎整個村子大家都生四個我們在上一輩的時候 還七個耶所以社會越進步啦 人越獨立啦那尤其以前墮胎 那是大驚我一件事到最後 墮胎也合法化了"},{"start":11109.754,"end":11113.859,"text":"大家都越來越獨立了你現在要叫孩子生我看你們會制定什麼樣的一個政策我看是很困難啦但是呢我確實是少子化真的是一個國安的一個危機啦不然你人也越來越少啊我們長照對老大人一直照顧那個本地都要照顧的啊但是生小孩這一代"},{"start":11130.638,"end":11134.881,"text":"你也不能逼 要怎麼制定法律 叫大家去生未來接生的人連結婚也沒有結婚 對不對 不要說小孩子可是他沒有生小孩的人 他也感受到沒有小孩對國家來 長期的一個發展來講的話那確實是一個很大的一個危機這個 我不敢想跟你們說要用什麼保守但是 你確實是踏入一切 他也不可以生"},{"start":11159.488,"end":11162.789,"text":"越來越好,他也不把你生了,他覺得不把你養成一隻寵物,他也覺得很開心。不需要負擔,不需要付很多責任,不需要生小孩。少子化有太多太多的一個因素了,尤其社會去做改變了。但是呢,政府都束手無策,這也不行。"},{"start":11182.538,"end":11185.701,"text":"我們很多政策都怕人家罵 站出來而已你知道嗎我們很多政策都是怕外界罵然後我們提出來真正有沒有用"},{"start":11194.028,"end":11214.007,"text":"你也知道 我也知道看數字就知道 都真的沒有用也還好有那些政策沒有那些政策的話搞不好會崩得會更快再想一下但是我還是要來就教幾個問題就是說國建署最新的統計很快兩位台灣人裡面 請我一位"},{"start":11217.927,"end":11222.428,"text":"體重都超標的所以為什麼現在很多人在找那個有效的減肥的方法傳統的吃下去之後 少吃都說小人少吃 多動 太慢了現在有瘦瘦症對不對但是我看到特別看到這個什麼叫猛健樂這個新藥因為衛福部要核准了可以來做減肥料市場簡直是殺紅了眼本期是比較擔心的就是說其實消費者的心態很簡單"},{"start":11247.952,"end":11252.953,"text":"他追求比較強效安全雖然價錢比較貴但他也覺得有好就好可是我們也發現很多我也會特別去注意到的好多的亂象比如說團購假團購也有陷阱LINE也有 臉書也有盤商也有 員工也有這個價錢來源是什麼我們也不知道這是第一個第二個就是說不然就整頓把它拆裝變零售四季之後"},{"start":11277.419,"end":11289.363,"text":"就把單季的價錢壓低這個都有潛在的淡然的風險另外最怕擔心的是境外的將進來的像譬如說我們在中國那邊就縮小一點同樣的成分價格只有十分之一我很擔心這個我不知道部長你看到這樣的一個亂象問題是說要給糖尿病的人要應援搞不好大家覺得這個好談我看很多醫生"},{"start":11306.766,"end":11330.248,"text":"大家都聊下去 不曉得部長你的看法怎麼樣有點失序啦確實從整個銷售量的成長過去這五年從一年不到十萬劑十萬針到去年已經超過一百萬確實我們看到這個量的增加太可怕所以有幾個事情我們會強化的第一個"},{"start":11333.09,"end":11348.915,"text":"這個是一個處方藥啦所以沒有拿到台灣的藥證那個就是偽藥那個會重罰所以這個一定是從安全的角度第一個先切入沒有達到藥證在賣的像中國版的這個就是偽藥這個我們會重罰我們會來強化這個稽查"},{"start":11352.856,"end":11367.396,"text":"那第二個這個藥本身是醫師的處方要有醫師的處方才可以買所以不可以隨便亂賣所以團購也好或者是隨便到什麼地方就可以買得到那個都是違法的它一定要有"},{"start":11368.557,"end":11384.806,"text":"賣的人要有藥商的資格那麼買的人要有一絲的處方才可以所以我們會來強化這個管理所以博丁我要說的就是說這個監管有一點慢半拍就像你講的市場確實已經失序了"},{"start":11385.726,"end":11397.154,"text":"真的要非常小心你醫療科技當然會進步但是如果你缺乏有效的監管的市場機制底下你上游開始走私經濟不知道中游到去排擠到整個病患的一個權益再到下游這個地方又有感染這樣的一個風險我特別特別的提醒衛護部這個部分真的要加把勁好不好好 我們會來加強管理"},{"start":11410.464,"end":11433.843,"text":"那另外今天我們整個衛福部我們今天在排審這個組織法裡面我倒有一個想法就是說你這個成立專責機構以後你預算跟跨部會的整合資源你要去有效的到位啦有效的一個到位啦你譬如說我們目前兒童跟少年相關的預算你現在GDP多少幾%2%而已你OECD的部門是說要幾%6%所以這個部分"},{"start":11438.506,"end":11454.015,"text":"這個如果說你只是說多一個組織只要把既有的資源去重新分配我看這樣你也達不到效果你自己組織起來之後你如果沒有資源在相對的一個到位的話你達不到你想要的效果"},{"start":11454.935,"end":11468.705,"text":"還有大家在講的我聽了好幾位委員在談到的也是有點道理的就是說你這些組織來的位階你等於三級機關那是不是承受得了那種高度的一個跨部會的協調的一個任務啊這個部分特別特別要去注意我看我們這個兒少福利跟權益保障法裡面的規定來的那個任務行為是保生保害你知道嗎"},{"start":11480.356,"end":11494.423,"text":"跨部會 跨院好多好多的地方我們確實是對於整個跨部會整個的問題跟人力的一個擴編這部分我們希望這個組織法我們來幫忙以後你們也同步要去做一個落實"},{"start":11495.763,"end":11513.473,"text":"跟委員報告確實這個人跟錢要同時到位啦所以我們有這個組織之後把它專責起來之後我們的人力也會希望增加啦不然那個預算在你膨大也要有人執行啦這幾年這個預算增加這麼多可是緣合上也沒有什麼成長所以我們也趁這個機會"},{"start":11515.254,"end":11533.274,"text":"成立一個三級機關讓這個人力可以成長那同時更專業跟專責來做擬定對策計畫再去有計畫那就預算才能夠去爭取那才能夠去落實執行所以這個是會結合起來做當然跨"},{"start":11534.295,"end":11553.842,"text":"跨部會的協調永遠都是我們現在面臨到的問題都很複雜像食安問題也是跨部會的我們也不會因為只是一個食安署食藥署就沒有辦法做這些事情所以這個平台上我們有各種不同的機制跨部會的合作我們部裡面的協調的委員會"},{"start":11557.043,"end":11566.909,"text":"或者是在行政院層級的也都有相對應的平台來做跨部隊的事情好啦 換給你支持 做出好成績啦好不好 好 加油謝謝阿維的發言也謝謝部長的回訊"},{"start":11578.533,"end":11589.076,"text":"因為上午到現在都沒有休息了那我們就等稍後王正旭委員詢問結束以後休息五分鐘來 接下來請王正旭委員來做詢問"},{"start":11597.025,"end":11615.658,"text":"好 感謝趙薇 最讚的趙薇安排今天的主題讓我們有機會針對於這個醫療科技很多需要及時來反應的需求今天有機會來真的來做一個詢問再請石部長請石崇良部長"},{"start":11619.471,"end":11634.541,"text":"部長部長好今天要審查這個組織法這個主改條文所以大家很期待趕快能夠把這些處理好以後對於整體的衛福工作呢可以有更好的發展那我今天就針對這個主題有兩個議題來跟部長"},{"start":11637.123,"end":11656.981,"text":"来讨论一下第一个就是医疗科技评估要纳入新医疗技术他对外也一定讲一部分等一下再主席跟部长就教第二个就是也是我们赵伟很关心的儿少相关的事项那么多有没有机会把协调这两个字也放进来等一下我们再跟部长讨论一下"},{"start":11657.762,"end":11674.51,"text":"有關於醫療科技評估納入新醫療技術的部分我們也知道在我們就稱為Chapter好了這樣比較好說不然 國家醫療科技評估中心設置調理這個說下來就已經時間比較長那有關於Chapter這個中心的業務範圍"},{"start":11675.851,"end":11698.645,"text":"在第三條裡面規範很清楚那在第一款就說要發展與建立醫療科技評估的方法與指引那剛剛在蘇委員請教您的時候又把這個chapter本身的業務講得非常清楚那在立法說明裡面也針對藥品醫療器材手術處置健康政策跟系統等範疇"},{"start":11700.646,"end":11715.246,"text":"可是我們也了解現在醫療科技真的是進步太多它很有可能是很多種是夾雜在一起的所以現在分別來這樣調列的話對於未來的發展有沒有造成哪一些的影響我們其實是有點擔心"},{"start":11717.108,"end":11740.1,"text":"我們也知道新的醫療技術事實上醫事室有在處理這部分新的醫療技術如果需要在台灣進行人體試驗或者是要取得台灣的許可的時候事實上也有相關的條例在這部分它分成兩部分一部分它是會委託醫策會來進行所謂的行政事務的審查"},{"start":11740.82,"end":11761.595,"text":"那這個兩點包括這個屬性的判定另外就是審查的作業相關的這個處理需求那我就舉個例子因為我本身一直在看癌症那癌症其實最近的發展真的非常非常的快光一個放射治療本身就會可能牽扯到藥牽扯到醫療技術牽扯到手術將來這個要怎麼辦"},{"start":11765.598,"end":11791,"text":"是用現有的模式呢還是既然Chapter成立了有沒有機會把這個業務同時做好適當的整併以後未來才不會說我現在不知道我到底是要給哪一個單位做適當的申請程序才能夠讓整個這個發展可以更為順利所以這邊有三個問題來請教一下部長第一就是醫療科技評估能不能把新的醫療技術"},{"start":11793.422,"end":11815.567,"text":"來弄作會而不是分開的什麼藥物啦手術等等的再過來這個新的醫療科技人體試驗到底是什麼人要來審查比較好第三項就是醫療就是Chapter目前如果人力增加以後的分組那怎麼樣來處理會是能夠因應未來Chapter整體的發展請部長"},{"start":11816.547,"end":11840.606,"text":"跟委員說明如果按照醫療法我們的心我們有三個心要做臨床試驗的一個是新藥一個是新醫材一個就是新醫療技術所以在醫療法確實是這樣分但是因為這個醫療科技評估如果要說法源的話它來自於健保法42條健保法裡面所分的就只有藥"},{"start":11841.747,"end":11868.629,"text":"跟服務一種是醫療服務一個就是藥品藥品包含醫材藥品跟這個醫材所以我們的給付是分這兩個所以他為了要搭配未來的給付所以這些醫療技術通常會歸在所謂的醫療服務項目所以我們在這個法規裡面寫醫療服務其實他就是就是一指的就是醫療技術但是現在確實像您剛剛提到的有一些放射治療"},{"start":11869.449,"end":11889.975,"text":"開始產生模糊了有些國家把這個放射治療當成是服務因為它不是只有那個放射源的問題它還有整個環境要調整所以它是一個醫療服務但是也有把它當成是一個新藥給它核准所以我們給付的時候我們會傾向它可能是一個包裹式的給付"},{"start":11890.675,"end":11911.077,"text":"因為你有一些人員要投入環境的設備要調整才能夠實施這一種新的醫療技術的治療但是未來這個一定也會在這個CHAPTA醫療科技評估中心的行政法人來做審查那至於人體試驗"},{"start":11913.106,"end":11938.42,"text":"因為這個是我們部裡面根據醫療法的授權法跟人體試驗管理辦法去擬出來的一些做法因為當時候只有醫測會那還沒有成立這個所以當然他的委託審查什麼會是在這個醫測會那未來到底要不要調整到這個新的這個Chapter我們可以來做討論"},{"start":11939.941,"end":11956.958,"text":"是啊 因為比如說現在3D列印的這個技術科技非常非常的發達像牙科或者是骨科他們很多的東西事實上是採取個人化這個保温事實上是很符合你未來Chapter如果能夠把這些相關業務也納進來的話對整體的發展來講應該會更為方便就更一條龍"},{"start":11962.543,"end":11979.769,"text":"是 要不然我們的3D列印技術發展了二三四年一開始的時候都是領先全球現在就像我們剛才說的我們這個生育率啊這個人口少子化的問題好像有進步不過別人的進步比我們更快就很麻煩還有一個小問題其實不小的問題就是兒少相關的這個協調選擇入法的部分"},{"start":11988.192,"end":12005.614,"text":"因為在我們十月底的時候有跟院長做了希望能夠趕快讓這個兒童照顧可以更完整那兒童的整體的這些需求是真的很快得到回應所以決定要成立這個兒少跟家庭支持署"},{"start":12006.235,"end":12027.109,"text":"那在调整之前很多的工作事实上都是一些组就是署下面的组在做负责调整以后还是分为五个组那这个五个组里面我们很担心这组中来你要跨部会的协调那组长去跟大家协调的过程里面会不会碰到压力或者是碰到全职上比较困难的地方"},{"start":12027.729,"end":12043.103,"text":"所以有沒有機會在這個組織法裡面直接就像這個兒少及家庭支持屬裡面有關於規劃與執行托育照護的部分再多加兩個字就是"},{"start":12045.265,"end":12062.888,"text":"規劃執行與協調就是剛剛我們這個詹委一直很擔心的如果把協調這兩年放進來至少數出去跟各個部會跨部會做處理的時候有它的方便性這樣的部分的修正不知道部長支不支持"},{"start":12064.26,"end":12078.782,"text":"當然我們本來的意識執行當中當然就包含協調執行一個業務如果涉及到跨單位的他就要去協調那為了成立這個署的目的也就是有一個專責窗口那本來就是要做這個事情所以如果要"},{"start":12079.502,"end":12107.066,"text":"加一個文字讓他更清楚我想也無妨啦本來就是這個執行過程當中需要跨單位的就去協調像托育照顧有時候他需要跟教育部去做協調那他這個就來做那早期療癒可能他有一部分涉及到健保的給付的問題他也要去協調這個當然是沒有問題好 那就麻煩部長了好 謝謝委員指教謝謝召委"},{"start":12107.446,"end":12110.128,"text":"好 謝謝王正旭委員的詢問"},{"start":12164.932,"end":12165.112,"text":"您的"},{"start":12165.757,"end":12167.422,"text":"重點是我看到這間樓壞了才笑"},{"start":12170.695,"end":12171.055,"text":"沒有啦!"},{"start":12209.664,"end":12209.684,"text":"那來"},{"start":12226.135,"end":12251.881,"text":"我們這也是零百都可以進去的,還是都可以退後,不然國內問題,我們重點是什麼?我們就是苦主,你們要配合我們,我們就是苦主"},{"start":12252.961,"end":12278.603,"text":"我今天拜託你,我會在聖靈門的主法內,你跟我說什麼?我看著你這個人,你太緊張了,好嗎?你跟我說你國主啊,你跟我說你國主啊,你跟我說你國主啊,你跟我說你國主啊,"},{"start":12283.24,"end":12287.444,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12313.524,"end":12330.998,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12345.288,"end":12345.308,"text":"這絕對是"},{"start":12360.452,"end":12379.189,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12389.231,"end":12412.068,"text":"有個彈性啊"},{"start":12417.214,"end":12427.166,"text":"他中午的"},{"start":12433.627,"end":12460.834,"text":"我們繼續開會先做會議程序跟時間的處理本日的會議我們除了進行報告跟詢答以外我們中午就不休息了繼續來進行討論事項的六案提案條文的宣讀以後再上會好不好來 阿哥來接下來我們請張雅琳委員來做詢答"},{"start":12463.246,"end":12466.088,"text":"謝謝主席 我們邀請部長有請石部長三位很早"},{"start":12479.215,"end":12499.766,"text":"好部長我想在之前在院會也好其實我已經問了很多大家今天都非常關心的就是這些跨部會的溝通要如何的來去協助因為像兒少保護牽扯單位實在是非常的多所以我想這個部分我今天就不細問因為大家都已經問了非常多了但是我今天的簡報出不來現在是可以暫停時間一下嗎現在是怎麼我訊號"},{"start":12509.98,"end":12510.381,"text":"時間先暫停一下"},{"start":12518.004,"end":12544.104,"text":"修復一下好 沒關係簡報沒有出來之前我先問一下就是說因為今天其實就是大家最關注就是兒家屬那兒家屬裡面現在我們的規劃是五顆但是其實我們是五組三顆 每組三顆但是我們希望調整到六組因為其實我這個一直陸陸續續以來我已經跟了23個兒少相關的團體來討論那這是我的版本是團體所希望的版本所以他們為什麼會希望到這個"},{"start":12545.445,"end":12563.245,"text":"六組呢最主要是說我們根據CRC其實大家都非常希望我們的兒少權利組下面呢可以我們要多一個育兒支援組就是把家庭支持組跟育兒支援分開因為過去他們放在同一個部同一組的時候呢托育其實花了太多太多的資源了"},{"start":12563.826,"end":12589.204,"text":"那跟人力那事實上我們在家庭的特別是親子教育或是育兒指導等等的部分其實都沒有足夠的支持所以大家會希望這個部分有一個獨立的支持然後把托育也就是獨立化這樣子那特別還有第二點是說我們希望在這個兒少權利組下面有一個少年發展支持科我想部長一定也非常清楚這幾年大家一直在喊說我們的少年的預算剛剛"},{"start":12590.805,"end":12605.972,"text":"主席講的是兒少整體預算是2%但是如果我們在裡面細看我們青少年的支持的預算是年年下降已經降到8%了所以大家希望說一個少年的發展支持科讓他有一個更長期的視角來去支持然後來去主責那特別是說"},{"start":12607.293,"end":12624.016,"text":"還有牽扯到的第三點就是兒少保護安置組我們希望不要用業務別或事業別來分他是回到兒少需求為核心的整合系的整合式的一個保護體系從兒少保護 兒少性剝削以及性侵害防治全部整併放在同一個"},{"start":12624.737,"end":12651.357,"text":"治理的架構之下避免像現在因為權責切割導致通報跟介入的時間點都會相當的不順暢最後一個部分其實是我們的兒少行為的防治與輔導科這個部分一樣是在兒少保護安置組最主要的原因是說現在我想有一些反覆進出體系的還有具有高度風險或缺乏兒少家庭支持的兒少"},{"start":12652.017,"end":12670.148,"text":"那其實我們是需要有個持續性的輔導跟行為的介入來去給他們一個更好的支持所以我們是希望就這幾個點上面是不是可以往這個方向來努力部長您的想法是什麼好 謝謝委員因為我們這個委員所提的建議就是未來在我們的出屋規程裡面會去訂定"},{"start":12671.008,"end":12690.263,"text":"所以還有一些彈性所以我覺得這個建議也很好我們來一併因為剛剛也有委員建議要再開公聽會對未來這個編制上要怎麼樣安排會讓這個組織的效能更好這個我們都會納入來慎重的研習這樣"},{"start":12691.284,"end":12704.012,"text":"對 因為我們這邊也是相當支持開公聽會因為希望因為這個是一個兒家屬我自己從在民間團體跟著團體們一起在倡議那終於實現的時候我覺得大家的一些想法當然我們這邊一直陸陸續續在跟這個團體們一起在討論"},{"start":12706.633,"end":12734.235,"text":"但是我們也是想要跟部會有一個更直接的溝通那特別是在這個兒少權利主政裡面因為我們一直在講CRC可是其實事實上我們在CRC裡面講的不管是兒少影響性評估也好或是權利包含休憩的權利這已經是世界國際專家關注非常非常嚴重的一個問題因為我們高自殺率可是我們其實並沒有好好的去想怎麼去支持他們讓他們有更好的發展我們一直在做都是後端的預防"},{"start":12735.236,"end":12742.531,"text":"後端的補救所以我們是希望這一個部分也是可以透過專責組織才能夠去檢視我們現在制度上的一個缺口"},{"start":12743.823,"end":12769.118,"text":"那最後就是緣額編制啦還是要要求我們的緣額編制一定要有足夠的編制至少要200人以上我自己算了一個版本大概是228人那我其實都算得非常的清楚那我也希望這個部長是不是可以參考我的方向來去做這個整體的編制讓資源到位讓預算到位讓人力到位我們才能夠真正的從家庭上面支持家庭支持而上那最後一個部分就是說"},{"start":12770.669,"end":12789.952,"text":"抱歉最後一個部分就是說部長您可以看到其實我這邊有一個非常重要的重點就是我們有設計師跟研究員的編制那為什麼要有設計師呢其實在過去兒童局的時候我們是有設計師可是到了社家屬之後沒有設計師那這造成什麼樣子的問題是我們現在社家屬"},{"start":12790.973,"end":12807.969,"text":"的資訊系統實在有夠難用不是只有我在說是很多人在說所以我們才希望說有一個這樣的資訊源而可以來去做整體的設計讓我們的資訊可以更好找然後還有就是說國建署跟衛福部的編制都有研究人力"},{"start":12808.57,"end":12826.271,"text":"可是社福世家署卻沒有編制研究人力可是社會福利偵測其實世界上面一直都在有很多的新局跟創新的要去面對現在當代的社會問題所以我也認為我們現在應該要有這個研究員的編制那以上我的建議部長是不是也都接受呢"},{"start":12827.312,"end":12856.052,"text":"這個我們都再請委員提供給我們把他這個資訊的部分我們是才向上集中不過呢這個每一個署還是要有他能夠這個因他業務所需要他最了解know how的部分來協助那技術的部分我們會由資訊處來向上集中的方式來辦理那我希望我們還是要這個研究員我覺得有必要因為在這一個兒少署裡面也有兒童健康"},{"start":12856.832,"end":12875.605,"text":"也有這個兒童福利還有剛剛兒犬所以它確實也需要有研究員這個我們未來都可以來爭取我們會在這個擬定這個初步規程的時候來討論好 那我想資訊是資訊資訊的這個部分最主要是因為我們現在並沒有從UI或UX的方面去設計"},{"start":12876.445,"end":12895.992,"text":"所以我覺得這個應該要回到從使用者的角度來去做設計不然大家在找監督資料資源的時候其實是非常難找尋的所以我這個版本我也會提供給部長也希望說從組到科到人員的編制上面都可以往我的方向來參考因為這真的是23個團體我們整合了非常久的一個意見謝謝"},{"start":12897.412,"end":12909.935,"text":"謝謝委員替我們做這麼多功課我們會拿來做研究謝謝張雅玲委員100分接下來請郭育晴委員來做選答謝謝主席有請部長有請石部長郭委員好"},{"start":12923.82,"end":12941.708,"text":"部長午安我想成立兒家屬的一個決心這也象徵我們的國家就是針對兒少的保護提升到所謂的專職 專責同時也是專業的一個高度但是現在我們跟一些兒少的團體大家在交流其實比較擔心的是在所謂的保護鏈"},{"start":12942.968,"end":12961.556,"text":"這個保護鏈的司法的前端如果跟後面所謂的社政在執行後端的銜接如果出現了所謂的應接不暇或斷鏈的時候其實他們就會開始擔心即使我們這個兒家署已經成立了但是如果後端的執行的成效可能會因為這個斷鏈而大打折扣"},{"start":12963.537,"end":12981.974,"text":"這個是大家所關注的喔那我想呢現在關於我們的這個少年司法量能的一個部分喔其實是量能非常的沉重這個案量很多那但是壓力也很大但是我想呢這個司法院管轄的這個少年調查官跟法務部的管轄的一個關護人喔"},{"start":12982.915,"end":13003.471,"text":"就因為這樣的這個案量太多負荷很大的狀況如果就像我剛剛所提到的前端如果塞車沒辦法緩解那後面又應該要怎麼樣來落實這個是我的第一個問題喔那在第二個部分呢就是關於我們的兒家屬在後端在執行所謂的安置或者輔導的時候會不會也因為銜接不上"},{"start":13006.873,"end":13021.73,"text":"產生了所謂的這個斷層的部分那兒家屬是不是在這個部分有一些機制跟司法機關的一個聯繫來保持確保這個高風險的少年他們在等待期的時候其實就有社政可以及時的這個介入"},{"start":13022.21,"end":13045.011,"text":"接觸這些孩子我想這是大家都非常關心的一個議題另外就是在我們的判決書的個資外洩的一個問題我們怎麼樣來保護所謂的兒少的身分不要透過所謂的內文的細節被拼圖式的去比對出來怎麼樣來保障他們的一些隱私三個問題請教好"},{"start":13046.753,"end":13055.65,"text":"謝謝委員 非常深入那麼第一個我們成立這個專責單位這個兒少級家庭支持組其實就是看到"},{"start":13056.85,"end":13079.765,"text":"兒少的問題有的是涉及到機構的管理有的是涉及到兒少的保護有的還會涉及到安置機構所以現在是站在不同的部門在組織所以我們現在把它成立一個署之後它就在同一個署那麼業務的溝通聯繫跟整合就會更好就是我們有一個整合的一個平台有一個窗口"},{"start":13080.605,"end":13108.096,"text":"對 就不需要再橫向了它就縱向了就在同一個部門裡頭了那麼第二個就是資訊要把它整合起來讓這個以人做中心的這些資訊的彙整不要再因為目前的行政單位是分離而讓它的資訊也都分開我們現在把它整合在一起當然因為資訊整合之後的資訊就很豐富但是另一方面就會涉及到個人"},{"start":13109.476,"end":13132.489,"text":"這個資料的保護的問題所以這個我們在健保有很豐富的經驗那麼所以會透過這個署成力之後在資訊的部分除了讓它集中那麼以個人為中心的整合之外那麼後端的資安跟個人隱私的保護我們也會強化包含這個權限跟最少揭露的原則這個我們會來設計"},{"start":13134.73,"end":13158.206,"text":"那就我剛剛所說的因為我想著這個部分的地區這個近一年來的一些資料顯示其實有一個比方說一個部分地區的一個人他可能要負荷超過100件的個案那這個部分其實將來就算我們的這個兒家屬成立之後我相信如果人力的補足的部分如果沒有補足這一塊的話其實還是會擔心會有一些斷層那這個部分"},{"start":13159.847,"end":13175.074,"text":"有沒有想過我們一方面會爭取增加這個人力因為這個業務也越來越龐大另一方面也透過科技的協助資訊的協助AI的協助來讓這個負荷也能夠人的負荷也能夠下降"},{"start":13175.114,"end":13199.543,"text":"好如果有一些比較具體的一些計畫或方向或者是我們的一些配套的一個措施再麻煩提供給我們辦公室好不好好那剛剛其實還有回答還沒有回答我一個問題如果關於所謂的個資尤其是兒少的部分其實這是大家都非常關心的我們很怕這些孩子又再一次受傷害所以這個比對式的所謂的這個個資的外洩的問題這個部分我們有沒有更積極的一個防堵的機制"},{"start":13200.36,"end":13215.483,"text":"在兒少法裡面我們其實是已經有相關的規定那可能我們比較關心的是落實度的部分我們再進一步的了解在哪個地方我們可以再強化不然在法規裡面其實是已經有明確的規定"},{"start":13215.683,"end":13238.292,"text":"那今天因為是時間的關係如果有一些比較更詳細或更具體的一些計畫或者是我們的方針或者我們盤點過後有什麼樣的一些真的進步的一些數據再提供給我好不好我們也向委員再來詳細的請教好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝郭玉琴 郭委員接下來請圖全集委員來做詢答"},{"start":13247.048,"end":13249.221,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那麻煩請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":13253.857,"end":13278.308,"text":"土委好 市部長我想請問一下我們國內食品安全衛生管理法還有我們食品添加物使用範圍跟限量這些標準的規定我們大概多久會去更新一些法規還是會有定期多久去檢討嗎好像是不定期的就是我們會根據這個進度或者是那個國際上"},{"start":13280.148,"end":13297.198,"text":"新發布的標準我們就會重新解答所以我們以為去參照國際的標準像歐盟還是美國FDA這些標準我們都會去參考有新的標準出來我們就會去研議修訂現在就是有民眾在反映針對像發泡錠的飲品這個部長應該知道 應該有喝過吧"},{"start":13302.781,"end":13328.468,"text":"這是VC的那種發泡錠對 像這個發泡錠飲品我們常常像很多國人出國他到國外都會去國外帶回來買回來可是現在業者反映說國外帶回來都可以可是反而我們現在進口會礙於法規的限制像我們發泡錠那個碳酸氫鉀它就不能"},{"start":13329.726,"end":13336.339,"text":"說作為營養素的添加可是目前在歐盟在美國FDA它都是可以的"},{"start":13337.861,"end":13365.268,"text":"那這部分部長有沒有了解一下好 這個我們來進一步了解因為各國的法規有的是像特別是維他命類的他是把它當成食物的補充品Superman那有些像我們國家有的會把它列為是藥品所以主要是看它的含量成分成分跟含量為主要的判斷的依據那我們再來研究一下跟其他國家法規之間的"},{"start":13366.208,"end":13384.161,"text":"這個差異度怎麼樣看看能不能來盡可能的調和對 像我們來了解碳酸氫鉀對我們人體是幾乎是有益無害而且像鉀這一部分我們都要經由特殊的蔬菜才能去攝取到所以"},{"start":13385.121,"end":13391.963,"text":"很多都要經由這個發泡錠讓我們身體來吸收那我們說我們這個本來就應該要與時計進然後跟國際接軌那居然連歐盟 美國FDA都經過實驗都認為碳酸氫鉀是可以做營養素所以他們認為說我們在國內反而針對這一部分從國外帶回來又可以"},{"start":13410.109,"end":13424.786,"text":"結果進口又說不行所以是不是應該要研議調整一下對 這個確實剛剛委員提出的這個碳酸金 氫鉀這個在國內是只是做調節劑沒有當成是食品添加劑"},{"start":13426.428,"end":13441.699,"text":"我們沒有把它當成營養所以我們來研究一下它是不是可以當成營養素這個可能還要經過我們的專家會議來討論對 那請部長來演繹一下因為這個跟國際接軌現在這麼多先進國家都可以做"},{"start":13442.399,"end":13470.334,"text":"營養劑結果反而我們台灣就不行然後國外帶回來又可以使用好 謝謝委員的提醒好 謝謝部長那還有針對我們健保總額其實健保總額我們這幾年其實都有在提升都有在提升那當然我們尤其我們現在比較注重的就是像我們護理師還有一些醫事人員其實大家都知道現在在流財 攬財部分其實都非常非常的辛苦"},{"start":13470.894,"end":13486.052,"text":"那當然我們部長健保這一塊你也很熟悉啦因為你健保署長從2023年到2025年所以這個業務你都非常了解那據我們來了解像除了我們護理師外像現在我們台灣"},{"start":13486.993,"end":13509.174,"text":"醫事放射師我們看到這幾年不但沒有顯著的成長而且從2024年我們看到還在減少2022、2023公立醫院這個醫事放射師的空切率也是非常非常的高所以針對這一部分他們有在反映是不是我們賴總統也一直在講"},{"start":13509.835,"end":13525.528,"text":"要提升我們醫護人員的薪資那針對醫事放射師這部分師傅可以研議把我們放射技術服務費實質補貼到我們這些放射師的薪資上面好"},{"start":13527.11,"end":13549.989,"text":"這個我們現在有除了健保署還有醫事師都有安排跟這兩類的醫事人員對話來實際了解他們所面臨到的問題那到底用什麼樣的方式來提升這些相關醫事人員的收入薪資這是我們的目標到底用什麼方式來讓我們再有一點空間時間來研究"},{"start":13550.789,"end":13571.507,"text":"對啊 這個就跟本席之前有提過我們三班互併比 他的達標獎金我們也說最實質的回饋就是直接回饋到他們的薪水上面不然這個護理師 這個大量的流失現任的要離職 然後新的又進不來跟這個醫事放設施人員我們認為是一樣的"},{"start":13572.908,"end":13601.668,"text":"所以這一部分我們希望實質做對他們有益讓他們有感的東西現在我們有一些給付都會指定說多少乘數一定要給人員的那我們也希望在健保總額上面醫事放射師這一部分也希望研議把我們放射技術服務費能夠實質補貼到他們薪資上面我們來研議看一下這個怎麼樣的方式能夠讓大家的薪資可以提高"},{"start":13602.068,"end":13613.43,"text":"好 那請部長言議盡速再回覆給本席好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝圖全集委員很有建設性來 接下來請林倩琦委員來做詢討好 謝謝我們主席莊昭偉我先請我們石部長有請石崇良部長"},{"start":13630.7,"end":13646.125,"text":"立委好部長好本席今天還是再次對於這個健康不平等然後最主要是在原住民健康專責這個機關然後跟您進行一個比較進一步的這個詢答那本席在提案的這個說明也提到過"},{"start":13647.545,"end":13662.872,"text":"當然今天最主要排審這樣一個衛生福利部的組織法修正最主要是要整合兒少跟家庭支持署還有長期照顧跟社會發展署的一個刺激機關但是看來我們針對現在整個結構性跨體系的社會問題我們都必須要這樣子來因應用專責刺激機關來做一個處理"},{"start":13671.236,"end":13693.172,"text":"本席認為在原住民的健康的部分也是很典型需要專責機關來做回應的一個結構性不平等的議題所以本席這邊在提供你幾個數據相信你們這邊也知道衛福部在2018年的統計數據原住民在很多項的關鍵健康指標上長期都列於全國的一個平均"},{"start":13693.912,"end":13715.645,"text":"在嬰兒死亡方面原住民族嬰兒因周產期特定的一個病況先天性畸形跟事故傷害的這個占比都高於全國的平均那十大死因當中呢原住民在血管疾病還有糖尿病高血壓等三高的這個相關疾病以及慢性肝病肝硬化"},{"start":13716.365,"end":13741.218,"text":"跟事故傷害的標準死亡率也都明顯的高於全國的平均我想這個是眾所皆知的在癌症的部分原住民族的口腔癌 胃癌及前列腺癌的死亡率也是偏高的好發的情形也比較明顯早於非原住民族很關鍵的是在2023年全體原住民族的檢疫生命表"},{"start":13741.858,"end":13767.031,"text":"原住民族平均餘命是73.25歲全國是80.23歲整整少了約7年這就是健康的不平等這個問題很嚴重這樣子的落差不是台灣獨有有一些國家也有這樣的情形所以他們的做法都是選擇用專責機構來回應原住民族健康的議題本席這邊提供你幾個參考就在美國"},{"start":13769.932,"end":13796.946,"text":"他就設置了Indian Health Service那作為聯邦層級的原住民族健康主管機關然後專責來整合醫療的服務公共衛生人才培育跟文化安全醫療那麼在加拿大呢因屬哥倫比亞BC省那他們則成立了First Nation Health Authority由原住民主導然後來負責政策規劃服務提供跟跨體系的一個協調今天協調這個議題也是大家一直在專注的"},{"start":13797.606,"end":13815.693,"text":"但是要協調也是必須在一個層級的平台上這整個被視為改善原住民族健康成果的一個重要的制度創新本席提供美國跟加拿大的兩個例子供您參考目前台灣原住民族的健康業務分散在各部會"},{"start":13817.313,"end":13839.078,"text":"還有當然在各福利體系當中但是沒有一個具有統籌性的專責政策主導力跟安全視角的一個專責經構那麼本席這邊跟你請教幾點那也做一個討論就是說第一個部分在衛福部啟動組織重整新設次級機關的這個階段那部長是不是可以考量跟認同原住民族健康的議題的結構性問題"},{"start":13840.979,"end":13847.319,"text":"是不是可以研議設立原住民族健康專責的機構這其實在政策其實有它的一個必要性"},{"start":13848.741,"end":13875.016,"text":"第二個部分相較於專案或者是補助跨私處協調的推動本席認為專責機構是有助於整個健康促進醫療的可靜性跟文化安全的議題長照跟健康人才的培育至少是不是在現在您是不是可以說明在未來的組織法或體制上有沒有階段性的規劃然後來朝向援助民族健康專責機構的發展"},{"start":13877.097,"end":13903.211,"text":"然後這個是不是可以請部長這邊給本席在此先做一個回應好 謝謝林委員這個指教那麼原住民其實健康的問題他不是只有特別是原住民的健康的問題不是單純只有醫療服務所以他需要有社會經濟環境就業等等各個面向所以我們在中央已經有原住民委員會"},{"start":13904.511,"end":13925.919,"text":"本席在行政單位經常碰到的一個問題就是因為有原住民組委員會或在各地方政府都因為有原民局原民處然後相關的原住民組單位大家就把所有東西都丟給他們可是實際上在執行上我相信在行政單位大家都可以知道在專責機構的無力本席這邊提問你參考原住民"},{"start":13927.62,"end":13934.942,"text":"委員會如果會遇到的問題我們再成立一個專責單位也一樣會有同樣的問題因為它的層面是很廣的以現在來講我們一定會有一個專責的單位來重視這個原住民的健康的問題例如是什麼"},{"start":13944.685,"end":13958.996,"text":"在我們現在有的這個叫護理及健康照護師裡頭就有專責的科來做這一件業務了那麼再者呢在我們部裡面也成立原住民健康委員會治醫委員會來定期的開會那做這個"},{"start":13960.057,"end":13981.078,"text":"整合跟協調 跨單位的協調那必要的時候我們也會去找其他的部會一起來join參加在這個執議會裡面來討論有關於原住民族健康的議題或者是相關的政策的推動所以部長可不可以把本席所講的這個部分做一個考量"},{"start":13981.778,"end":14002.328,"text":"有的時候就是一個階段性至少現在我們的整個平均餘命跟實際的狀況還是比較劣於大家的平均我們要把這個差距縮小這個是絕對是我們的目標所以本席提供的例子就是說國外是怎麼解決這個問題或許我們可以參考再更深的一點研議然後看看這樣子的設置的一個可能性好不好"},{"start":14002.688,"end":14023.326,"text":"好 我們來努力好 謝謝部長如果有能力的不足我們也會再增加這樣支援能力的部分來投入好 謝謝部長好然後最後很快的我可不可以請一下那個這個原民會跟內政部因為今天都有代表來那 部長先請回謝謝接下來的議題就比較是在原民的這個部分了原民會跟內政部現在有人嗎"},{"start":14030.334,"end":14036.299,"text":"這是一個比較最近的議題剛才我們在談到原住民健康壽命長期其實是列於主流社會"},{"start":14049.571,"end":14064.84,"text":"這整個的風險其實成本我們不能整個轉嫁族人來承擔同樣的一個治理邏輯本席在這邊要談一下原住民族身分法在修法跟執行上也再次顯現了剛才本席所談的這樣一個議題"},{"start":14066.101,"end":14079.42,"text":"那這邊請兩個單位是不是注意一下目前在111年的這個憲判制第4號的判決有宣示姓名不應該是原住民身份的一個門檻但是呢新法卻更通盤的採取了"},{"start":14081.603,"end":14108.559,"text":"協同認同的一個協同兼認同主義要求族人來證明認同的誠意要不然會喪失既有的身份姓名人是一個門檻所以這個新法回溯到父母一方因為離婚或者是一方死亡那麼具有原住民身份的父或母行使侵權然後沒有改姓取得身份的子女那麼結果全國有大概7000多人受到這個影響"},{"start":14109.54,"end":14124.907,"text":"然後有很多人大量的族人事先不知情第一線的戶政人員或者是原民的地方民代常常也都沒有跟上所以這顯示原民會跟內政部戶政司在修法以後的宣導溝通也不足"},{"start":14125.547,"end":14144.272,"text":"本席這邊跟你們請教三個問題第一個 園民會可不可以說明一下姓名作為關鍵門檻的制度設計是否應該要重新檢視有沒有違背憲判自所揭示的憲法旨意 意旨第二個部分是內政部可不可以說明一下你們第一線互證人員的訓練對族人的主動告知"},{"start":14147.393,"end":14172.433,"text":"還有這個宣導的不足然後讓大家在這個像今年非常緊急的要做這樣一個處理這個相關責任是不是可以做一個檢討那第三個部分請你們共同說明一下目前已發生的或即將發生的身份中斷的空窗起因那有沒有具體跟制度化的一個補救跟過度的機制而不是族人要自行承擔因為族人有剛才本席所講的這些問題那是不是可以請你們分別跟共同做一個回應"},{"start":14175.832,"end":14199.499,"text":"委員好 不好意思因為我是社福處這業務是重規處的可是沒有關係可是我先回答一下就是在於宣導部分這部分我們一定會跟內政部再加強宣導至於說中間有那個過渡的部分其實1月5號那個沒有完成的話其實在後面主任還是可以做申請的部分再處理原住民身份的部分其他的部分是不是容"},{"start":14200.279,"end":14206.219,"text":"就是委員會後給我一個說明然後跟報告好不好是 謝謝委員謝謝然後內政部可不可以麻煩你們"},{"start":14207.404,"end":14235.478,"text":"我是內政部地政司剛剛問到這個問題其實是屬於我們戶政司的業務所以如果針對宣導不足的部分我們也是一樣就是回去再轉告戶政司這邊是不是會後再提問因為我是地政司對…所以具體的應對方案是不是會後也是要跟本席這邊做一個回應好不好算計劃型的或者是口頭的一個補充可以嗎我們再跟戶政司說明好"},{"start":14236.721,"end":14258.689,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝林倩琦委員的詢答接下來請羅明財羅明財羅明財委員不在楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在廖偉祥廖偉祥廖偉祥委員不在鄭振前鄭振前鄭振前不在請劉建國委員來做詢答謝主席有請市部長"},{"start":14267.355,"end":14293.145,"text":"請石崇良部長部長各位好對 去年我在未還的時候應該是5月28號那一天我在提出這個質詢的時候我有特別提到台灣額頭的政策之前太過於分散了然後而且坦白講已經到混亂的一個局面了然後實際上就是這樣0到2歲就是托育是歸屬社家屬"},{"start":14294.405,"end":14320.797,"text":"二到六歲幼兒園是在教育部管然後兒童安置歸社家屬兒童受虐又受這個是保護室在管然後另外像負責凱凱案的收出養的兒童聯盟是教育部管轄的文教單位然後其他還有內政部的少數會警政署的護幼隊兒少政策支援分散代各部會實在是"},{"start":14321.617,"end":14346.482,"text":"實在是權責不清到極點的情況之下所以我今天是要這樣我來引用日本在2023年成立的這個兒童家庭廳的例子給部長還有給相關單位做參考那日本是透過成立這個兒家廳不僅將兒童的資源來做進行整額同時它本身也就是日本少子化對策的一個非常重要的機關這個部長知道嗎"},{"start":14347.162,"end":14366.802,"text":"我知道 你知道 OK我在這邊要先感謝賴總統 院長還有幫忙部長可以在這麼積極努力之下用最快速度提出這個兒少及家庭支持署的組織法的草案並且在今天我們司法跟衛環聯席下來排審要進行審查但我用這個"},{"start":14368.359,"end":14394.409,"text":"日本聽 日本的這個兒童聽的這個相關的組織法來對照我們今天要提出來的我們自己的組織法那其中有一些文字 也請部長看一下投影片有紅字的部分 部長是不是可以唸出來紅字 那是日文耶日文你可以唸成中文我要唸中文也是啊對對對 當然可以內袋諾房子內袋諾房子 好"},{"start":14396.397,"end":14403.784,"text":"他們在他們的職長事項裡面把這兩項放進去也就是說日本已經將這個防止兒童兒虐然後還有因應少子化問題具體入法那歸屬在他們的兒童家庭庭裡面這是很明確的嘛然後"},{"start":14420.071,"end":14448.698,"text":"職長項目把它調列出來那我們的兒童的這個支援署咧 支持署咧在什麼地方 有嗎如果是這個兒虐的那個虐待那個就是兒虐兒虐的這個防治的部分應該會是在我們未來的工作業務裡面是有的啦現在主要是在保護服務師我們會移到這個兒少級家庭署裡面來"},{"start":14449.198,"end":14478.416,"text":"不是喔 部長這個草案應該你都有過目過了吧你如果要講的是應該是在我們兒家屬未來職長事項的第二條第一項第二款也就是說兒童少年保護安置與照顧政策之規劃對不對然後推動執行及相關的法規的原定應該是這樣所以我們條文的思維就是停留在保護安置與照顧防止額略 沒有"},{"start":14480.583,"end":14481.046,"text":"就是沒有啊"},{"start":14483.088,"end":14508.338,"text":"然後這基本上是事後處理的狀態雖然我們寫的是保護啦其實它是三級預防的概念所以有前面的一級預防那個是有只是文字上我們寫的沒有那麼把它直接寫出來其實現在的業務就是在這個保護服務師裡面是有的防止額略釋放在保護的範疇裡面對 就是"},{"start":14510.819,"end":14535.154,"text":"對 在三級 三級的保護 整個範疇是合起來的三級預防啦 我們叫做三級預防你看 對 好 如果成如你所講的也OK但是你看日本的這個兒童廳他是直接把房子虐待是入法條 非常清楚然後把少子化的客戶也入法條 也非常清楚那我們為什麼要這麼保守"},{"start":14536.794,"end":14561.155,"text":"如果文字上要讓它凸顯出來當然我們也可以在未來主條的時候去討論我請部長思考一下好不好這個給你們做一個參照參考的依據不只這樣日本還寫了什麼值得我們參考我在這邊挑三項其實它雖然是日文它下面還有中文的翻譯確保地區中兒童適當之遊戲與生活場域這是第一項"},{"start":14564.137,"end":14581.88,"text":"這個是很多人都認同的重要長期以來它也是被忽略的項目當我們衛福部還在思維還停留在保護的時候安置照顧的時候其實人家日本已經走到關注兒童有沒有適當的遊戲與生活的場域而且是正式入伙"},{"start":14582.541,"end":14600.047,"text":"是用法律的層次來保障兒童必須要有適當的遊戲與生活的場域這是第一項那第二項就防止霸凌等事項建構霸凌之商這個體制在內的地區資源體系而且都還是條文化"},{"start":14601.18,"end":14621.979,"text":"這個條文不只是防止惡孽 包含防止霸凌 通通是陸法因為這陸法的必要性是因為可能來自師長 長輩或同儕間的這樣的一個霸凌那第三個是促進兒童育兒家庭以及孕產婦及其他生育相關女性之福祉 原來很容易"},{"start":14624.677,"end":14641.027,"text":"範圍真的很廣而且全部把它納入在他們的條文裡面我不曉得部長到底有沒有看到這麼細這個是跟各國立法體力有點差異當然會有差異因為我們的立法力都是比較"},{"start":14641.627,"end":14660.408,"text":"在組織法的部分都是比較概括性的法規然後執行的部分會落到我們的處務規程裡面去制定比較詳細的部分包含主科它的任務是什麼如果要寫到那麼細怕說這個文字上"},{"start":14662.35,"end":14676.167,"text":"會很冗長啦我們是把它我們的立法例都是比較概括性的然後在處務規程裡面再去細緻地把它列出來我們委員會開了六次嘛應該部長也有參與到一半的時間嘛那你看俄托華在整個審查過程裡面"},{"start":14677.308,"end":14699.456,"text":"相關的草案其實坦白講也是非常細喔也不能太過於抽象喔也不能太過於文字上就涵蓋一切嘛那不可能嘛對不對所以今天我們要俄交署要來成立那基本上我想可以細緻到把它相關的一些權利相關的一些保障相關的一些預防都可以在法條的程式上去彰顯出來我覺得這不為過啦"},{"start":14702.297,"end":14727.329,"text":"這不會過 你再看嘛我想這個邏輯日本這個邏輯譴責意見沒有兒童就沒有兒家屬的成立的必要性那除了保障兒童權利外還是要讓大家敢生願意生 可以生才符合我們兒家屬成立的這樣的一個核心目的所以你看他們的兒童家庭聽的組織法明文規定還規定什麼營造能對結婚生育育兒抱持希望之社會環境這個該抽象吧"},{"start":14731.107,"end":14736.017,"text":"然後並針對客戶少子化之基本政策事項進行規劃研擬及綜合協調我們有沒有沒有啦"},{"start":14741.209,"end":14767.079,"text":"沒有啦 所以今天開廠牌的時候就能再問你燒紙化辦公室的問題啊這個事情如果我們可以入法那基本上也不需要什麼燒紙化辦公室了在我們的兒家屬裡面就可以來解決來做處理了我要讓看 對不起 主席對不起看最後一個數據你看這個台灣出生人口持續下降而且是最來勢的下降了農年的時候才13萬多114年11月份9萬多"},{"start":14770.62,"end":14797.228,"text":"那有可能會跌破到11萬喔今年還沒有統計出來那像這個情況之下 今天俄家族的成立包含額內的防止 包含少子化相關的一些因應包含營造友善的環境的情況之下是不是在這個俄家族裡面的組織委裡面我們可以把它參照日本相關的這樣的立法例來做一個更精準的這樣的一個組織的一個修法來訂定 可以嗎"},{"start":14799.797,"end":14818.956,"text":"我們不要那個事後補救行的啦簡單講是這樣確實我們應該要往前去做規劃但是因為少子女化的問題確實這個層面很廣要用一個兒少署來解決這個少子女化的問題恐怕是比較困難但是我們就是剛好要修這個組織我們要修這個組織我們就盡可能的讓兒家屬"},{"start":14825.543,"end":14854.361,"text":"整個那個內力內功可以達到某種程度啦當然不是一個兒家屬可以解決所有事情這個我當然非常清楚嘛我剛剛點出來幾項是不是可以納入在這次的有幾個部分我是覺得本來就是應該要納入的啦那只是說要不要文字上做做明確的這樣的修訂我們再看看來酌一下這個文字好 謝謝是確實是比較不一樣"},{"start":14855.661,"end":14873.327,"text":"就請部長可以慎重來這樣的思考 儘量把它納入啦可不可以謝謝劉建國委員我們下一次還有一次啦 主條的時候大家再來好好深入的來做討論接下來請最美麗的謝依鳳委員來做詢答謝謝主席你這樣我不敢罵啊"},{"start":14884.399,"end":14907.834,"text":"我現在就要保持意識順暢這樣請我們部長有公立的 笑眉眉也公立的能展現請時部長我對於兒家署或者是我們的照發署我沒有意見但是對於中醫藥的這一個要成立行政法人我覺得"},{"start":14909.175,"end":14938.114,"text":"我也是其實也是沒意見但是有一個問題你知道他來過我們書所長來過那個我們彰化看了那個明道大學很多次他本來說成立行政法院要在明道大學設立就是等於他要接續這個明道大學然後來那裡設立中醫藥點等等把他的中醫藥研究所都搬到那裡結果現在怎樣"},{"start":14940.136,"end":14960.373,"text":"你們討論怎麼樣我們還在進行中啦對 你們行政部會到底討論怎樣結果他來不久馬上那個好像又有我們的中研院的我們的研究員也來到了這裡那核研究員他也來說就說是不是要改"},{"start":14961.354,"end":14978.434,"text":"往一個什麼健康照護精準營養的方向來設立這樣子的一個圓區我想要就教於你啊到底你們是要怎麼樣做嗎 是不是是 這個跟委員報案你知道我們有一個中醫藥發展法"},{"start":14978.814,"end":14999.241,"text":"就是希望來這個基本法就是希望來推動這個具台灣特色的這個中醫藥的發展那麼所以我們剛好有這個明道大學退場那麼之後有這樣的一個空間所以我們確實有在規劃是不是因為這個地方很大"},{"start":15000.181,"end":15021.036,"text":"所以讓它能夠發揮最大的效益的話是希望做像園區的概念它不是只有研究它還要做產業的一些連結它是可以做那種沒有農藥然後是有機的中草藥的包含藥源 包含檢驗中心"},{"start":15022.897,"end":15051.236,"text":"那發展高產值的這樣子的一個等於說中草藥就是有機的中草藥是一個農作物的這樣子的一個情況那你們到底規劃情況是怎麼樣目前是這樣規劃不過也要經過一些審查我們現在是初步拟據的一個計畫請專家來協助表示意見所以我這樣問是不是還沒有結論還沒有完全定案下來是不是還沒有結論"},{"start":15053.217,"end":15068.286,"text":"對 我們現在是寫了計畫然後報到這個行政院然後還要經過審查的過程所以行政院也還沒有確認還沒 還沒確認那我們要怎麼做我們都在等你們我們縣政府也想做是不是再努力"},{"start":15068.906,"end":15096.338,"text":"結果你們說要設立法人然後希望把它拿去做一個就是說相關的對 有機農業的這樣子整體的發展嘛那我們在等你啊那你總要給我們一個下文嘛對不對還有啊 我在要求就是在偏鄉的這個我們彰化偏鄉的這個醫療上面也希望你們再多多給予協助啊是不是這個東西你也要處理啊總不能"},{"start":15098.676,"end":15113.266,"text":"衛福部在你的任內懸而未決的事情太多吧你總是要當一個有魄力的部長吧是不是我們一步一步穩紮穩打是不是你不期待自己成為一個有魄力的部長是不是"},{"start":15114.532,"end":15128.17,"text":"這個一定要這樣做的啦這個規劃我們已經在規劃只是說在執行面上那我們希望讓它更完善所以才會需要一些專家的意見進來然後經過那現在到底是哪一個方向呢"},{"start":15128.786,"end":15143.822,"text":"就是它是一個園區不是只是單純說把現在的中醫藥研究所搬去那裡不是這樣簡單我知道可是好像我看到了健康醫療的委員會是不是還有其他的就是精準營養的園區有嗎"},{"start":15148.155,"end":15170.035,"text":"裡面的規劃它有教育的功能所以包含那個營養的部分是有的它有教育的功能不是只有這個辦公廳社它還有可以讓民眾進來一起互動的這個我們叫做教育館沒有 因為我聽起來我聽起來是兩個方向耶那所以是同一個方向嗎是同一個方向嗎"},{"start":15170.635,"end":15192.357,"text":"跟什麼同一個精準營養是同一個方向嗎應該是含納在裡面就是說等於是整個中醫藥的圓區加上了精準營養的這樣相關的發展嗎對 就是那個不是只有營養應該說精準健康但是它當然會導入一些中醫中藥的元素"},{"start":15193.514,"end":15220.342,"text":"所以是兩個併進的方向是不是對 應該是三個它一個是研究院一個是教育推廣館另外可能還有就是藥源的部分產業的部分我希望衛福部的動作能夠迅速一點有效率一點好不好好 我們積極推動好 謝謝謝謝謝宜鳳委員的詢答接下來請伍麗華委員來做詢答"},{"start":15225.714,"end":15226.055,"text":"慢慢來謝謝主席 有請石部長請石部長"},{"start":15239.87,"end":15267.611,"text":"部委員好部長好今天有來做這個組織法的一個詢答那我這邊其實個人也有去做針對組織法的部分有做修法那我想先請教一下雖然這是老生常談但是還是會有一些新的一個思維產生我舉個例子在20年前其實我們可以看到原住民跟全體國人平均愚民的差距"},{"start":15268.271,"end":15281.478,"text":"逼近10歲這些年也看到衛福部針對原鄉有一個健康不平等改善策略行動計畫所以我們可以看到在10年前103年你看從8.24的差距一直到110年11年的時候6.19"},{"start":15290.724,"end":15304.902,"text":"所以那個時候部長你知道嗎我在原鄉行走我都會告訴他們說蔡英文總統她做了這個文建站的政策非常好我說你看"},{"start":15305.643,"end":15324.879,"text":"短短幾年我們縮短了兩歲當然這是不科學的說法但是這是一個很直觀的說法因為你可以看到我們從這個105年然後一直到111年這段時期原鄉全面的推動文件站"},{"start":15325.802,"end":15342.302,"text":"你看他的一個平均餘命的差距是很明顯的縮短那在他114年最最最縮短的最有成效的時候呢次長那個時候您是次長你很幫忙推動原建法"},{"start":15343.443,"end":15363.596,"text":"終於呢在112年的時候原建法三讀通過所以我們也很高興因為我們覺得說有作為就會有成效可是部長您看一下喔結果原建法通過了之後呢我們的平均餘命它的差距又往上爬升部長您怎麼看這個現象"},{"start":15366.023,"end":15385.379,"text":"這當然跟我們報告就是說從這個國際的分析這個COVID產生了一定的影響特別是對經濟弱勢偏遠地區資源比較不足的它的影響更大所以我想這個是COVID之後產生了一些後續的影響"},{"start":15386.62,"end":15401.918,"text":"不過我們確實看到這個數字應該要更進一步的去分析我們會來研究看看需要把過去的這個政策再做什麼樣的調整來盡可能的再去縮短這個餘命的落差"},{"start":15402.698,"end":15430.677,"text":"謝謝部長因為這個健康不平等其實就是我們所有作為的一個很重要的一個目標方向那我的看法是這樣子因為目前這個改善策略的行動計畫它分布在照護師醫事師健保署國健署疾管署那剛才你有提到我們不能夠單純的去看一些健康表徵其實原住民的健康"},{"start":15433.018,"end":15457.145,"text":"不是只有因為接種疫苗或者是老人照顧小孩或者營養的問題造成我們原住民嬰兒的死亡率是全體國人的兩倍又或者說我們的意外事故的死亡率是高於全體國人可是他還有一些空間障礙的問題他就醫的時候他不敢就醫因為交通成本高 時間成本高"},{"start":15459.045,"end":15476.383,"text":"又或者說結構性的社會問題像很諷刺的就是我們勞動部調查出來的結果全國四大缺工前四名恰恰是原住民就業率的前四大"},{"start":15477.003,"end":15496.824,"text":"這是一個非常諷刺人家不願意做的怎麼會變成是原住民最多的一個工作又或者是說政策的一些盲點舉個例子原住民一半的人口都已經在渡惠區可是我們的資源都是集中在原鄉忽略了這些渡惠地區的原住民"},{"start":15497.844,"end":15526.329,"text":"所以呢我在這邊其實還是要去提一下如果說這樣的一個原住民的健康問題然後放在一個衛福部底下的原住民族及離島健康科然後呢他的任務就是去做這一些包括什麼衛生所擴建行政工作或者是公費生的養育培育的這些行政工作那我在想"},{"start":15526.989,"end":15552.221,"text":"原民會它那個地方它也有所謂的社福處但是它裡頭我去問都是考上原住民特考的他們都不是一式的一個專業人員可是反過來說如果在我們的原建法裡面它提到指定專責單位辦理原住民族健康事務"},{"start":15553.422,"end":15571.133,"text":"那又不一樣囉因為會有專門的這些醫事人員進駐去做專業的事情所以這個部分我其實為什麼會去提出這樣的一個衛福部的組織法修正我特別希望在第五條第六款"},{"start":15571.673,"end":15586.967,"text":"增加一個刺激機關叫原住民健康照顧署或者是其他的名稱都沒有關係那這個是我的一個想法我覺得這個應該是會有助於健康不平等健康與命的一個改善部長您覺得呢"},{"start":15588.536,"end":15610.357,"text":"我們現在確實已經有專責的單位了那當然這個委員的指教就是說他這個層面上當然他有地理的因素在剛好我們很多的原住民的朋友住在比較偏遠的地區所以這個偏遠的地區的問題是一併處理的不會是因為他是原住民或不是原住民而有不同"},{"start":15610.777,"end":15628.506,"text":"一樣的我們的原住民的朋友也會住在離島所以是離島整個要一起處理也不會只處理原住民跟非原住民大概是不會這樣所以我們是確實要考量到原住民的朋友們的他的特殊性譬如說剛剛您提到的"},{"start":15628.886,"end":15657.749,"text":"有一些經濟的問題這個需要有社福的資源那有些是健康取得的問題可敬信的問題那我們要透過健保的這個資源透過我們其他國民健康署CDC的資源所以他的資源需要做重合有一個專責的單位來關注這個相關的議題包含研究的委託那這個我覺得這個是有這個必要性但是要用一個是不是要用一個署來切割"},{"start":15658.59,"end":15673.772,"text":"那會不會做得更好這個就是我比較擔憂我想這倒不是切割的問題我覺得是應該是說去顧及到我們的專業度跟現在所謂的文化安全這個概念要全面的進來"},{"start":15675.113,"end":15700.922,"text":"那我想這個是我們可以想像的到應該會有所改善那在這邊我也要謝謝部長因為一直以來關於文化安全怎麼樣進入到原住民的一個長者照顧那原鄉一直都很缺乏專屬原住民的一個住宿型的長照機構雖然外面已經很多而且空床很多但是那不等同於原住民不應該有專門"},{"start":15702.483,"end":15724.733,"text":"他文化安全的一個示範機構那我特別謝謝部長就是您的支持那也有啟動這樣的一個開始所以我要在這邊特別感謝您那另外就是智慧醫療的部分因為我看到113 114的示範計畫已經結束你們有說要完成資料蒐集進行成效評估再行研議所以我很關心我是希望全面"},{"start":15725.713,"end":15742.684,"text":"那其實經濟部中企署也有這方面的一個智慧照顧服務速發部的速產署也有健康照護產業所以我在這邊是希望說衛福部能夠在一個月內盤點一些相關的計畫或者是各公立醫療機構的一個針對原鄉地區那怎麼利用資訊科技輔助遠距醫療的這樣的一個試辦計畫能夠把它提出來可以嗎"},{"start":15751.009,"end":15774.747,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們樂意來做不過因為科技計畫今年預算沒有省讓我們的預算怕沒有辦法沒有錢可用所以我才會說就是希望你們來找經濟部 數發部這些有相關的能夠一起來盤點一起來討論今年遇到這個預算審查的問題所以有一些新興的計畫我們都會很困難"},{"start":15775.967,"end":15781.889,"text":"這個是 這個是但是總有解套的時候啦我是覺得說我們還是要運用既有的預算規劃還是要來試著把它規劃出來盤點出來好嗎好 謝謝吳麗華委員謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝吳麗華委員的詢答接下來我們請最有活力帥氣的羅廷維委員壓軸 來"},{"start":15804.147,"end":15810.196,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長請施部長感謝主席排審 歐委員好"},{"start":15811.229,"end":15835.41,"text":"那我想部長今天大家都很關心組織法的一個相關修正我們當然都知道現在人口老化少子化的一個問題同步加劇那長照的體系呢也日益的加重照顧人力的短缺所以今天我們面臨這樣子的一個狀況人口危機衛福部將這些資源的整合我們一定都支持我想我在總質詢的時候也跟部長表示"},{"start":15836.21,"end":15854.275,"text":"這樣的方向不只支持我們還給予肯定我覺得您辛苦了但是組織的升級的目的到底是我們只是整個所謂的業務整合還是升級了招牌有沒有真正落實到兒少的權益以及長期照顧的量能"},{"start":15854.995,"end":15879.262,"text":"以及資源分佈不均的一個老問題我想問一下部長兒家屬的成立目前還有沒有其他的創新亮點還是就是我剛剛說的業務整合而已不只是業務整合他是更專注就是讓他更專業的發展那麼關注在這個兒童的議題相關的議題從健康到福利到保護這個我們都把它這個"},{"start":15880.925,"end":15903.994,"text":"深度會加深 廣度也會擴大焦點化在那邊那我想問一下 兒家屬成立後園兒的編制會不會有相對的提升一定會增加那您投入的量能就相信在未來就沒有理由我想這個部分因為投入的量能會更多但是我們也很擔憂因為畢竟整個衛福部將組織整合以後兒家屬是三級機關"},{"start":15905.675,"end":15919.03,"text":"三級機關要在行政層級上就有它的一個局限性那你要怎麼樣去做到跨域橫向的整合比如說兒少的 家庭的 醫療的社福的跨域整合這個部分您應該也要多關心一下會"},{"start":15920.812,"end":15947.152,"text":"當然在這個屬的層級會比原來的溝通更順暢因為它畢竟它是三級機關過去有些是在部裡面的一個師所以反而我們把它拉高層級之後它的協調會更好我想這個部分今天還是大家不管是從前面的我們在關心少子化辦公室到現在我們希望它不只是單純的招牌升級業務整合 焦點化而已跨域的整合您還是要多擔當"},{"start":15948.673,"end":15974.811,"text":"效能的提升讓它能夠運作的更順暢更有效能然後再來就是長照的部分我想長照政策這幾年來都一直在被批評說資源集中在都會偏鄉還是看不到這個部分我也要幫忙說話了我們希望你還是要在確保整個資源的分配是都市有偏鄉也能夠在被看到這部分還是要再提醒"},{"start":15975.331,"end":15998.271,"text":"我想上一次我也有在其他的委員會有在跟你詢問到衛生福利部長照2.0在2016年開始推行目標在我國建立各社區能夠推動長照的照顧模式遍布密集的有所謂的ABC長照據點截至114年8月我們看到A級據點"},{"start":15999.292,"end":16003.376,"text":"有818處B有9931處C有4971處但是我們一直看到這些ABC據點有中醫機構醫療的投入長照有多少"},{"start":16015.948,"end":16034.916,"text":"您這邊有掌握嗎上次我大概有問你對 這個數目很少啦這個確實是寥寥非常少可數 對吧所以我要問的說今天我們也有提到說這個中醫的部分中醫藥這個我們真的是很關切我們也希望"},{"start":16035.836,"end":16054.383,"text":"以你們之前的一個論述這個衛福部中醫藥師前師長黃宜超曾經說過這個初估全台可能有百萬名的一個失能患者在這樣子的困境下中階層以上的略有資產的民眾還可以去做相關的防範但是目前在未來可"},{"start":16055.935,"end":16082.531,"text":"可以看到的一個進度我們知道目前的人力不足以及這個長照的一個人力缺失我們都希望中醫藥能夠再給予一些更多的幫忙那剛剛我也問你了嘛ABC據點有投入多少你也說出了一個我想說你會說出一個對不起這個數據我沒辦法掌握可能是看起來數據很多沒辦法掌握數據結果你自己也知道因為只有幾家不好意思說出這個數據"},{"start":16083.792,"end":16088.401,"text":"所以這個部分您可不可以給我一個具體的承諾在中醫藥的部分能夠投入ABC據點"},{"start":16089.281,"end":16117.766,"text":"能夠有更具體的作為給我們跟委員報告我們長照3.0是希望往前特別是在這個長者的健康促進預防衰弱的部分還有2.0的不足那這個地方呢其實是我們中醫呢可以很有貢獻的地方所以我們會來跟這個包含我們不用等到未來長照社會發展署成立我們就會回去現在就應該檢討了吧那請問您大概多久可以給我一個方向"},{"start":16122.558,"end":16133.332,"text":"一個月一個月我們來規劃這個承諾我們把這個規劃可以怎麼去強化這個中醫參與的參與的部分在長照3.0今年就長照3.0了所以這個"},{"start":16135.334,"end":16157.015,"text":"怎麼樣參與到長照3.0我們在一個月內有一些規劃的方向我想這個東西事關絕對是全國不是只有我台中市我想主席的縣市也都可能有受惠到但我覺得你應該要去好好的去把它思考一下我們考量到這個對 這個資源配置的這個平衡性一個月內是具體的不是"},{"start":16157.816,"end":16172.843,"text":"很吵吵的喔這個當然是先有規劃方向啦要有戰略嘛你才知道戰術怎麼執行嘛對還是要有步驟啦還是會有步驟好不好希望麻煩你謝謝羅廷委員他這就算這個很好啦其實我們平時都有在討論這個確實是多對地方尤其中醫啊"},{"start":16176.585,"end":16202.302,"text":"那個量能再進來加大那是很棒的一件事情那我們所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了 詢答結束那委員質詢的時候呢要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關尽速送交個別委員及本聯席會那委員邱振軍 廖偉祥所提書面列入記錄 刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來做答覆"},{"start":16208.747,"end":16233.525,"text":"討論事項我們所列的議案報告及詢答完畢我們就定期來繼續審查會議的後續程序請進行討論事項提案條文的宣讀也向各位來做預告六案的條文一併宣讀大概的時間差不多一個小時四十分鐘本次的會議我們就進行到提案條文宣讀完畢以後及結束"},{"start":16233.965,"end":16244.095,"text":"那列席的機關代表如果有任何要功的話可以先行離席那接續我們請議事人員來宣讀條文請宣讀你給我們比較辛苦一點"},{"start":16246.401,"end":16271.498,"text":"討論事項第一案衛生福利部組織法行政院提案第二條續文及第一款未修正二全民健康保險及國民年金業務之監理第三款至第五款為現行條文第四至六款第一六護理政策法規之規劃管理監督及研究第七至九款為現行條文第八至十款第一其中第八款據守的及改成頓號"},{"start":16273.294,"end":16300.699,"text":"第十款為現行條文第十二款一列其中據守的及修正為宇是依所屬醫療機構之督導協調及推動第十二款為現行條文第十三款之一列委員和薪準等提案第二條除第四款第二句修正為社會工作及其人力配置外其餘未修正委員立略請等提案第二條除第二款修正為二全民健康保險財務之監理國民年金財務之管理及監督"},{"start":16301.579,"end":16322.751,"text":"第六款修正為六護理制政策與法令規劃管理監督及研究第八款手續的頓耗改成及第四款手續的與改成及第十一款修正為十一所屬於中醫藥研究司法精神醫療研究醫療機構之督導協調及推動第十二款為行政院提案第十三款第一其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":16324.315,"end":16340.283,"text":"委員盧憲一等提案第二條除第七款修正為期 離島居民醫療健康照顧醫護人力培育疾病防治之政策與法令規劃監管理監督及研究及與同行支援提案委員羅廷偉等提案委員陳培育等提案"},{"start":16340.723,"end":16357.12,"text":"委員郭玉琴等提案委員林慶琪等提案第二條均同行政院提案委員王玉敏等提案第二條除第二款修正為二全民健康保險國民年金財務之政策規劃管理及監督其餘同行政院提案委員李坤澄等提案第二條同行政院提案"},{"start":16358.081,"end":16381.749,"text":"行政院提案第五條 續文及第三款未修正 第二五六款分別修正如下 二 食品藥物管理署規劃與執行食品藥物化妝品之管理查核及檢驗事項 五 兒童兒少及家庭支持署規劃與執行托育照護早期療癒兒童少年福利與權益保障家庭支持服務及健康促進事項"},{"start":16383.229,"end":16408.576,"text":"6 長期照顧及社會發展署規劃與執行長期照顧老人身心障礙者婦女權益與福利及國民年金事項委員林彥群提案第5條續文及第1到4款未修正第5 6款分別修正如下5 兒少及家庭支持署規劃與執行托育照護早期療癒兒童少年權益保障與家庭支持福利服務及健康促進事項"},{"start":16409.976,"end":16421.563,"text":"6 長照及社會發展署規劃與執行長期照顧國民年金及老人身體障礙者婦女婦女福利事項文入秀英等提案第5條同行政院提案"},{"start":16422.799,"end":16447.934,"text":"委員羅廷偉等提案第5條從行政院提案委員陳培鈺委員委員陳培鈺等提案第5條除第5款修正為5兒少及家庭支持署規劃與執行托育照護早期療癒兒童及少年及福利與權益保障醫療照護健康促進經理健康促進及家庭支持服務事項其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":16448.649,"end":16464.244,"text":"委員過預請的提案第五條同行政院提案委員林倩琦等提案第五條除將第七款修正為七原住民健康照顧署規劃與執行原住民族文化安全醫療照顧原鄉醫療資源建置健康不平等改善"},{"start":16465.004,"end":16491.773,"text":"與相關調查研究及健康促進事項其餘同委員盧秀英等提案委員王玉敏等提案第五條將第五款修正為兒少及家庭支持署規劃與執行托育照顧兒少保護與安置家庭支持服務兒少身心健康創傷復原醫療及早期療癒死亡回顧少年自力支持服務及兒童少年福利與權益事項其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":16492.313,"end":16504.91,"text":"委員李坤臣等天第五條通行政院提案行政院提案第八條第一項未修正本法中華民國一百零七年六月十三日修正公佈條文自公佈日施行委員林月琴等天第八條"},{"start":16506.448,"end":16532.011,"text":"第一項未修正本法中華民國一百零七年六月十三日修正發布條文自公佈日施行某年某月某日修正發布條文自施行日期由行政院以命令定之委員盧秀英盧秀盧憲一等提案第八條委員羅廷輝等提案委員陳培宇等提案委員郭育晴等提案委員林倩琦等提案委員王玉明等提案委員李坤誠等提案第八條均同行政院提案"},{"start":16533.373,"end":16549.553,"text":"討論事項第二案衛生福利部兒少及家庭支持署組織法請自願提案名稱衛生福利部兒少及家庭支持署組織法第一條衛生福利部為辦理兒童少年健康福利與權益及家庭支持之業務特色兒少及家庭支持署"},{"start":16551.024,"end":16570.124,"text":"委員林月晴等提案 委員羅廷維等 委員陳培宇等 委員郭育晴等 委員王玉明等 委員李坤誠等提案名稱及第一條均同行政院提案行政院提案第二條本署張理下列事項 依兒童少年福利與權益家庭福利服務政策之規劃推動與執行"},{"start":16572.182,"end":16587.825,"text":"及相關法規之嚴定二 兒童少年保護安置與照顧政策之規劃推動與執行及相關法規之嚴定三 兒童少年與家庭支持之服務資源之規劃推動與執行及相關法規之嚴定四 兒童少年"},{"start":16588.406,"end":16605.739,"text":"與家庭托育服務資源政策之規劃推動與執行及相關法規之嚴定五 兒童權利公約之推動協調及聯繫六 兒童少年健康促進保健防治政策之規劃七 早期療癒之規劃推動及執行八 兒童少年福利機構業務之督導及考核九"},{"start":16608.281,"end":16625.563,"text":"兒童 少年與家庭支持業務資通訊應用發展國際合作及交流10兒童 少年與家庭支持福利服務事項之監督 輔導及考核11其他有關兒童 少年福利與權益健康促進及家庭支持福利服務事項"},{"start":16627.338,"end":16641.697,"text":"委員林玉琴等提案第二條 需聞其一到四款同行政院提案五 兒童權利公約制推動協調聯繫及督導 六 兒童少年身體健康促進保健防治政策之規劃 七 兒童少年權益之發展與促進"},{"start":16642.538,"end":16658.493,"text":"暨其參與公共事務相關政策之規劃推動與執行及相關法規之嚴定八到十二款為行政院提案七到十一款之第一委員羅廷偉等提案第二條趣聞及一到六款均同行政院提案增訂第七款"},{"start":16659.754,"end":16683.493,"text":"兒童少年遊戲遊戲及休閒發展政策之規劃推動與執行八到十一款為行政院提案七到十款之第一增列第十二十三款分別為十二兒童少年友善司法制度之規劃整合統籌及跨機關政策協調十三兒童少年制隱私權保障個人資料保護網絡安全及數位環境風險防治相關政策之規劃整合與推動"},{"start":16684.264,"end":16711.863,"text":"第十四款同行政院提案 第十一款委員陳培鈺等提案第二條 續文集一到五款同行政院提案 增列第七款 七 兒童少年與家庭心理健康政策之規劃推動與執行 八到十一款為行政院七到十款之第一 增列第十二款 十二 兒童少年網路安全與數位環境風險防治相關政策之規劃 第十三款同行政院提案 第十一款委員"},{"start":16713.055,"end":16739.16,"text":"郭育晴等提案 第二條同行政院提案 委員王玉明等提案 第二條序文及第一款同行政院提案二 兒童少年保護安置與照顧政策自立支持服務之規劃推動與執行及相關法規之嚴定第三款同行政院提案四 兒童少年與家庭生育與托育服務資源孕產婦照顧政策之規劃推動與執行及相關法規之嚴定"},{"start":16740.014,"end":16764.908,"text":"第五六款同行政院提案七兒童少年療癒早期療癒死亡回顧事故傷害預防政策之規劃推動其執行八處罰與不省兒童少年處於服務政策之規劃推動其執行九兒童少年福利機構業務之督導輔導及考核福利機構業務之監督輔導及考核第十到十二款為行政院提案九到十一款之第一委員李坤城等提案第二條同行政院提案"},{"start":16766.141,"end":16783.477,"text":"第三條本署次署長一人職務比較檢任第十三職等或列檢任第十三職等副署長二人職務列檢任第十二職等委員林玉琳等委員羅廷威等委員陳佩玉等委員郭育晴等委員王育民等委員李坤誠等提案第三條均同行政院提案"},{"start":16784.147,"end":16799.055,"text":"第四條本署自主任秘書職務列檢人第十一職等委員林昱晴等委員羅廷威等委員陳培宇等委員郭育晴等委員王玉明等委員李坤成等提案第四條俊彤行政院提案第五條本署各職層之官等職等及員而另以便即表定之"},{"start":16799.615,"end":16800.335,"text":"討論事項第三案 請參考關係文書的單行本"},{"start":16825.01,"end":16851.074,"text":"刮鬍衣行政院提案名稱衛生福利部長期照顧及社會發展署組織法第一條衛生福利部為辦理長期照顧老人性障礙者婦女國民的經濟業務特設長期照顧及社會發展署第二條本署長理下列事項一長期照顧老人性障礙者婦女服務福利服務政策之規劃推動與執行及相關法規制定第二長期照顧老人性障礙者婦女福利"},{"start":16851.724,"end":16867.273,"text":"服務資源之規劃推動與執行及相關法規之原定三長期照顧老人身障礙者婦女之權益保障與社會參與之規劃推動及執行四身心障礙者權利公約之推動協調及聯繫五社會福利財團法人與長期照顧服務機構法人相關"},{"start":16868.294,"end":16896.244,"text":"法規之嚴定推動其執行 六 社會福利公益信託之設立變更撤銷與廢止 監督輔導財務查核 相關法規之嚴定推動其執行 七 長期照顧老人身障礙服務機構業務之監督輔導及考核 八 國民研究規劃推動與執行及相關法規之嚴定 九 長期照顧老人傷心障礙者婦女與國民研究業務之資訊資通訊應用發展國際合作及交流 十 長期照顧"},{"start":16896.884,"end":16926.464,"text":"老人性障碍者婦女福利服务事项之监督辅导及考核十一其他有关长期照顾老人性障碍者婦女福利与权益服务及国民年金事项第三条本署至署长一人职务比照前任第十三支等或列前任第十三支等副署长二人职务列前任第十二支等第四条本署至主任秘书职务列前任第十一支等第五条本署各职称之官等之等及原额另以编辑表定制第六条本法实行日期由行政院以命令定制"},{"start":16931.87,"end":16948.147,"text":"衛生福利部長照及社會發展署組織法第一條統行政院提案序文及第一款均統行政院提案二長期照顧老人性障礙者婦女婦女之權益保障及社會參與規劃推動及執行第三到八款為行政院提案第四到九款之第一"},{"start":16950.451,"end":16976.9,"text":"第9款同行政院提案第第9款同行政院提案第10款 其他有關長期照顧老人 身心障礙者 婦女服務福利服務及國民年金事項 第三條是第9條均同行政院提案委員羅廷維等 委員郭育晴等 委員王玉明等委員李坤誠等提案名稱及各條條文均同行政院提案討論事項第4案"},{"start":16978.667,"end":17005.467,"text":"衛生福利部中央健康保險署組織法行政院提案第二條本署長禮下列十項依全民健康保險政策之規劃執行及相關法規之原理第二到第六款為現行條文一到五款之第一第七八款未修正委員羅廷美提案第二條同行政院提案委員郭育群提案第二條除第五款及第七款分別修正為五全民健康保險藥品特採"},{"start":17008.108,"end":17022.635,"text":"業務與醫療科技評估至研擬規劃及執行 七 全民健康保險諮詢業務數位應用與安全管理至研擬規劃及執行 其餘軍統行政院提案委員張雅玲等提案及委員王玉敏等提案第二條軍統行政院提案"},{"start":17026.069,"end":17041.21,"text":"有案國家醫療科技評估中心設置條例草案等四案請責任提案名稱國家醫療科技評估中心設置條例第一章總則第一條為促進國家醫療資源有效運用推動醫療科技評估落實"},{"start":17043.072,"end":17071.291,"text":"實證基礎之醫療給付及健康政策增進國人健康及福祉特設國家醫療科技評估中心括弧以下簡稱本中心並制定本條例第二條本中心為行政法人其監督機關為衛生福利部衛生福利部得指定專責機關督導本中心業務第三條本中心之業務範圍如下一 發展與建立醫療科技評估方法及指引二 辦理全民健康保險醫療服務"},{"start":17073.352,"end":17100.465,"text":"與藥物及副項目及支付之醫療科技評估審查三 辦理醫療科技評估相關研究及提供資訊服務四 辦理醫療科技評估人才培訓及推廣五 辦理國內外醫療科技評估之交流合作六 辦理健康政策評估及研究之相關諮詢七 體能醫療科技評估相關之事項前項第二款之審查作業及"},{"start":17101.044,"end":17119.452,"text":"其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定之第四條本中心經費之來源如下一政府預算之荷波及捐補助二受託研究提供諮詢服務及審查收入三營運及研發成果收入四國內外公私立機構"},{"start":17121.114,"end":17141.412,"text":"團體及個人捐贈五 其他收入前項第四款之捐贈適同對政府之捐贈第五條本中心應訂定組織章程人事管理會計制度內部控制飢餓作業及其他規章提經董事會通過後報監督機關被查本中心就執行之公共事務"},{"start":17142.433,"end":17168.465,"text":"與不抵觸有關法律或法規命令之範圍內的訂定規章並提經董事會通過後報監督機關被查第二章組織第六條本中心設董事會自董事十一人至十五人由監督機關就下列人員臨選提請行政院院長聘任之解聘時一同一政府相關機關構代表二公共衛生醫事專業與醫療科技及"},{"start":17170.946,"end":17198.745,"text":"健康政策評估相關之學者專家三 民間企業經營管理專家或對本中心業務有重大貢獻之社會人士前向第一款之董事不得少於董事總人數二分之一第一項董事任意性別不得少於總人數三分之一第七條 本中心自監視三人至五人有監督機關就下列人員臨選提請行政院院長聘任之解聘時一同"},{"start":17200.786,"end":17222.013,"text":"政府相關機關各有代表二 公共衛生醫事專業與醫療科技及健康政策評估相關之學者專家三 會計審計集合法律或財務相關之學者專家監視應互選一人為常務監視第一項低管制監視不得少於"},{"start":17223.613,"end":17242.545,"text":"監事總人數二分之一第四項監事任期性別不得少於總人數三分之一第八條董事監事任期為三年期滿得續聘一次但續聘人數不得少不得於總人數三分之二不得少於三分之一代表政府機關構出任之董事監事"},{"start":17243.625,"end":17264.97,"text":"應依及職務異動改聘不受前項續聘次數之限制依第六條第一項第二款第三款及前條第一項第二款第三款規定聘任之董事監事任期屆滿前出缺者由監督機關臨選提請行政院院長補聘之及任期至原任者"},{"start":17265.973,"end":17293.322,"text":"任期屆滿為止 第九條本中心設置董事長一人 有監督機關就董事中提請請政院院長聘任之 解聘時一同董事董事長之聘任解聘補聘之方式及其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定之 董事長對內縱理本中心一切事務都要代表本中心其因故不能執行職務"},{"start":17294.4,"end":17304.817,"text":"由其指定之董事代行職權不能指定時由董事互推一人代行職權董事長出任年齡不得於65歲任期屆滿前"},{"start":17307.816,"end":17326.288,"text":"年滿70歲者 應即更換但有特殊考量 經行政院核准者不在此限第十條 董事會之職權如下一 發展目標及計畫之審議二 年度業務計畫之審議三 年度預算及決算報告之審議四 規章之審議"},{"start":17327.409,"end":17351.289,"text":"五 自有不動產處分或其設定負擔之審議六 執行長任免之同意七 本條例所定應經董事會決議事項之審議八 其他董重大事項之審議第十一條 董事會每三個月開會一次必要時得召開臨時會由董事長召集並擔任主席董事會會議應有過半數董事之出席"},{"start":17352.29,"end":17378.872,"text":"其決議應有出席董事過半數之同意但前條第一款至第七款之決議應有董事總人數過半數之同意第十二條監視職權如下一 年度業務決算之審核二 業務財務狀況之監督三 財務帳冊文件及財產資料之集合四 其他重大事項之審核及或集合"},{"start":17380.053,"end":17394.409,"text":"監事單獨行職職權常務監事應代表全體監事列席董事會會議第三條 董事監事相互兼不得有配偶及三親等以內血親印親之關係"},{"start":17395.49,"end":17418.524,"text":"第14條 董事監視執行長及其關係人之利益迴避事項依公職人員利益衝突迴避法之規定辦理違反前項規定自本中心受有損害者行為人應對本中心負損害賠償責任第一項人員違反公職人員利益衝突迴避法之規定者足以該法"},{"start":17419.765,"end":17422.568,"text":"規定處法外監督機關並得為適當之處置其處置規定由監督機關定之"},{"start":17427.352,"end":17451.179,"text":"第十五條 董事監事常務監事應親自出席列席董事會議不得委託他人代理第十六條 有下類情形之一者不得聘任為董事監事其已聘任者應予解聘一 受監護宣告或輔助宣告尚未撤銷二 受有歧途行為上刑之判決確定而未受反刑之宣告"},{"start":17451.759,"end":17480.287,"text":"三 受破產宣告或依消費者債務清理條例經法院裁定開始清算程序三位賦權四 此都公權三位賦權五 第二十條安全查核未通過或拒絕接受查核董事常務監事無故連續不出席不練習董事會議那三次者應予解聘董事監事有下列各款情勢之一者得予解聘一 行為不檢或品性不端"},{"start":17481.047,"end":17503.358,"text":"至影響本中心形象有確實證據 二 工作執行不力或待呼職者有具體事實或違反聘約情節重大 三當屆日本中心年度績效評鑑連續兩年未達監督機關所定標準 四違反公務人員行政中立法這情勢有確實證據 五 就主管事件"},{"start":17504.198,"end":17512.817,"text":"接受關售或請託或利用職務關係接受招待或規則至損害公益或本中心利益有缺失證據 六"},{"start":17515.188,"end":17541.416,"text":"非因職務之需要動用本中心財產有確實證據七違反第十三條或第十四條第一項利益迴避規定有確實證據八其他有不適任董事監視職位之行為且向各管情事監督機關於解聘時應給予當事人陳述意見及申辯之機會本中心董事監視之聆聘解聘補聘之方式"},{"start":17541.994,"end":17564.86,"text":"及其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定之第十七條本中心之董事長得為專任或兼任專任者之報酬由監督機關和定之兼任者為無己職本中心董事常務監事及監事均為無己職第十八條本中心自職薪長一人專任負責本中心營運及管理業務之執行"},{"start":17565.509,"end":17592.907,"text":"由董事長提請董事會通過後聘任至結併時一統執行長依本中心規定本中心規章董事會之決議及董事長之授權責請本中心業務並督導所屬人員第九條第四項第十三條第十六條第一項至第四項第二十二條第六款有關董事及董事長之規定於執行長準用至第四九條"},{"start":17594.246,"end":17612.577,"text":"本中心金融資人員依本中心人事管理規章辦理不具公務人員身份及權利義務關係應於契約中明定董事監事及執行長之配偶及其三親等以內血親姻親不得擔任本中心總務會計及人事職務董事長"},{"start":17613.317,"end":17633.575,"text":"子卿長不得禁用其配偶及三親等以內血親、嬰親擔任本中心職務第二十條本中心人員應依涉密程度接受一般或特殊安全查核一般安全查核由監督機關依規定辦理涉及國家安全或重大利益制特殊安全查核應由監督機關會同相關機關辦理制"},{"start":17635.796,"end":17662.188,"text":"對於規劃禁用之人員應先行辦理安全查核拒絕接受查核或查核未通過者應不予禁用依法應實施安全查核而待於辦理查核之相關機關人員前結重大德應依送監察院依法處理安全查核之適用對象程序內容究極相關事項之辦理辦法有監督機關會商有關機關訂"},{"start":17664.195,"end":17682.604,"text":"之第二十一條本中心限職及離職後三年內人員應經監督機關許可使得出國境其他法令另有規定者從其規定前向所定之人員之範圍涉密基準申請許可條件程序"},{"start":17683.123,"end":17700.781,"text":"被指及其他相關事項的辦法由監督機關定之第三章 業務及監督第二十二條監督機關對本中心之監督權限如下一 發展目標及計畫之核定二 規章年度及業務計畫與預算年度執行成果及決算報告"},{"start":17701.725,"end":17730.008,"text":"書之核定或被查3 財產及財務存款之檢查4 業務績效之評鑑5 董事監事領聘解聘之建議6 董事監事於執行業務違反法令時得為必要之處分7 本中行有違反憲法法律法規命令予以撤銷變更費至限其改善停止執行或其他處分8 自有不動產處分或其他"},{"start":17730.444,"end":17752.085,"text":"或其設定負擔之何可其他依法律所委之監督第二十三條監督機關應邀集有關機關代表學者專家及社會公眾人士辦理本中心之績效評鑑其中學者專家及社會公眾人士之人數不得少於二分之一顯像評鑑人員"},{"start":17753.406,"end":17763.022,"text":"任意性别不得少于总年数三分之一第一项绩效评鉴之成员资格条件聆聘程序绩效评鉴之方法程序及其他"},{"start":17764.321,"end":17790.077,"text":"事項之辦理辦法由監督機關定之績效評鑑內容如下一 本中心年度執行成果之考核二 本中心業務績效及目標達成率之評量三 本中心年度自籌款比率達成率四 本中心經費合撥之建議五 其他有關事項第二四條 本中心應擬定發展目標及計畫"},{"start":17792.014,"end":17796.207,"text":"體經董事會通過後報監督機關核定本中心應訂定"},{"start":17797.642,"end":17814.231,"text":"年度業務計畫及其預算提經董事會通過報監督機關備查第二十五條本中心於會計年度終了後三個月內應將年度執行成果及決算報告書委託會計師查核簽證提經董事會審議並經全體監視通過後報監督機關備查並送總審計機關前項決算報告"},{"start":17824.797,"end":17843.232,"text":"審計機關得審計之審計結果得送監督機關或其他相關機關為必要之處處理第四章會計及財務第26條本中心之會計年度應與政府會計年度一致本中心之會計制度依行政法人"},{"start":17844.553,"end":17866.829,"text":"會計制度設置相關法規定定本中心財務報表應委請會計師進行查核簽證第27條本中心成立年度制政府合撥預算經費得由監督機關在原預算範圍內調整因應不受預算法第62條及第63條規定之限制"},{"start":17868.24,"end":17888.637,"text":"第28條本中心應用物必要使用自公有財產的架構或政府機關構採捐贈出資或無償提供使用方式為之採捐贈者不適用預算法第25條第26條土地法第25條國有財產法第28條第60條及地方政府公產"},{"start":17895.97,"end":17923.815,"text":"管理法令之相關規定檢証架構公有土地資價款以當期公告土地限值為準土地上建築改良物資價款以稅捐基中機關提供至當年期平定限值為準該有該當年期平定限值者依公產管理機關估價結果為準本中心以政府機關合波經費指定用途所購置之財產為公有財產"},{"start":17926.36,"end":17953.793,"text":"第一項出租無產提供使用及前項之公有財產以外由本中心取得之財產為自有財產第一項無產提供使用及第三項之公有財產由本中心登記為管理人所剩之收益列為本中心收入不受國有財產法第七條第一項及地方政府公產管理法令相關規定之限制及管理使用收益及其他"},{"start":17954.795,"end":17975.096,"text":"相關事項是辦法由監督機關定之公有財產用途廢止時應移交各級政府公產管理機關接管本中心接受捐贈之公有不動產不需使用時應歸還捐贈機關購不得任意處分第29條政府機關"},{"start":17976.653,"end":18000.635,"text":"合泊本中心資金費應依法定預算程序辦理並受審計監督檢向經費超過本中心當年度預算收入來源50%者有應有監督機關將本中心年度預算輸送立法院審議本中心自主財源及其運用管理相關事項由本中心訂定收支管理歸當"},{"start":18002.476,"end":18020.747,"text":"報監督機關被查第三十條本中心所舉借自災物以具自償性值者為限並因陷重監督機關核定預算執行結果有不能自償之餘時應即檢討提出改善措施報監督機關核定"},{"start":18021.448,"end":18042.579,"text":"第三十一條本中心之採購作業因本公開公正之原則除符合我國地解之條約協定或政府採購法第四條第一項鎖定情形因依個該規定辦理外不適用政府採購法之規定其採購作業實施規章應報監督機關核定檢向"},{"start":18045.595,"end":18065.094,"text":"因依政府採購法第四條第一項規定辦理自採購與其他法律另有規定者從其規定第32條本中心之相關資訊因依政府資訊公開法相關規定公開之其年度報財務報表年度業務資訊及年度績效評鑑報告應主動公開"},{"start":18069.198,"end":18092.793,"text":"前項年度績效評鑑報告應由監督機關提交分析報告送立法院被查必要時立法院得要求監督機關首長率同本中心董事長執行長或相關主管自立法院報告營運狀況並被詢第五章負責第33條對本中心之行政處分"},{"start":18094.127,"end":18115.378,"text":"不符則得依訴願法之規定向監督機關提起訴願第三四條本中心應請事變更或績效不彰自不能達成其設立目的時由監督機關提請行政院同意後解散之本中心解散時其人員應終止契約其剩餘財產歸屬國庫"},{"start":18118.214,"end":18141.566,"text":"其相關債務由監督機關概括承受第三十五條本條例施行日期由行政院定之委員羅廷偉等17人提案除將第二條第二項衛生福利部的指定專責機關督導本中心業務等自刪除外與法案名稱各張章名及條文均統行政院提案"},{"start":18142.421,"end":18161.434,"text":"委員郭玉琴等宣論提案處第三條第一項第一款句號前增列包含倫理社會影響法律及分配正義之評估維度第二項句末增列監督機關應定期針對醫療科技評估結果之採納情形與"},{"start":18162.342,"end":18188.409,"text":"決策效率進行追蹤並納入績效評鑑第六條第一項第二款據要前增列並有團體代表或維護並有選議之專業人士及第十五條據莫增列以視訊參與會議者視同親自出席等之外於法案名稱各張章名及條文均統行政院提案委員張雅玲等17人提案"},{"start":18188.942,"end":18214.717,"text":"法案名稱 各章章免及條文均同行政院提案討論事項第六案 八五一行政院提案名稱國家中醫研究院設置條例第一章總則第一條 為推動國家中醫發展促進中醫臨床精準治療研究提升中醫藥產業競爭力特設國家中醫研究院並制定本條例第二條 本院為行政法人 其監督機關為衛生福利部"},{"start":18215.177,"end":18230.328,"text":"第三條本院之業務範圍如下一中醫醫療業務之執行推廣及臨床研究二中醫診療儀器及軟體之研發三中醫基礎醫學之研究四中中藥製程製劑藥理檢驗之研究五"},{"start":18232.89,"end":18258.813,"text":"要用植物種植研究及教育之推廣六中醫要點擊文物之典藏研究及教育推廣七國內外中醫要科技研究合作及科技專業人才培訓八中醫要研發產品銷售技術移轉及技術服務九其他與中醫相關事項第四條本院辦理前條第一款業務的附設宜蘭"},{"start":18260.094,"end":18277.612,"text":"病症中醫研究教學研醫療機構本院對前項醫療機構應訂定管理及監督規章提經本院董事會通過後報監督機關被查第五條本院經費來源如下一政府預算之合撥及捐補助二"},{"start":18278.092,"end":18293.886,"text":"国内外公司立机构团体及个人之捐赠三 受托研究及提供服务之收入四 营运及研发成果收入五 其他收入前向第二款之捐赠适同对政府之捐赠"},{"start":18295.097,"end":18311.648,"text":"第六條本院應訂定組織章程人事管理會計制度內部控制集合作業及其他規章提經董事會通過後報監督機關被查本院就執行之公共事務於不抵觸有關法律或法規命令之範圍內"},{"start":18312.569,"end":18327.51,"text":"得訂定規章並提經董事會通過後報監督機關被查第二章組織第七條本院設董事會自董事長11人至15人有監督機關就下列人員遴選提請行政院院長批認之"},{"start":18327.99,"end":18348.767,"text":"解聘十一同一政府相關機關代表二與中醫藥研究相關之學者專家三民間企業經營管理專家或對中醫藥有重大貢獻之社會人士前向第一款之董事不得與董事總人數三分之一第二款之董事不得少於董事總人數二分之一"},{"start":18349.427,"end":18373.827,"text":"第一項董事任意性別不得少於總人數三分之一第八條本院之監事三人由監督機關就具中醫研究法律或會計相關學士經驗者遴選提請行政院院長評院之解聘時一同監事應互選一人為常務監事第一項監事任意性別不得少於總人數三分之一"},{"start":18375.339,"end":18400.02,"text":"第九條 董事監視任期為四年其滿得續聘一次但續聘人數不得於總人數三分之二不得少於三分之一代表政府機關出任之董事因依其職務異動改聘不受前項續聘次數之限制依第七條第一項第二款第三款及前條第一項聘任之董事監視任期屆滿前出缺者由監督機關領選"},{"start":18401.421,"end":18415.678,"text":"提请行政院院长补聘之其任期至原任者任期届满时为止第十条本院至董事长一人由监督机关就董事中提请行政院院长聘任之解聘时一同"},{"start":18416.438,"end":18435.303,"text":"董事長之聘任解聘補聘之方式及其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定之董事長對內縱理本院一切事務對外代表本院因故不能執行職務時由其指定之董事代行職權不能指定時由董事互推一人代行職權"},{"start":18437.303,"end":18454.017,"text":"董事長出任年齡不得逾六十五歲任期屆滿前年滿七十歲者應即更換但有特殊考量經行政院核准者不在此限第十一條董事會之職權如下一本院與一第四條第一項規定附設醫療機構發展目標及計畫之審議二本院一"},{"start":18458.661,"end":18485.91,"text":"及一第四條第一項規定附設醫療機構年度業務計劃之審議三本院與一第四條第一項規定附設醫療機構年度預算及決算報告之審議四本院及一第四條第一項規定附設醫療機構規章之審議五自有不動產處分或其設定負擔之審議六本院院長及一第四條第一項規定附設醫療機構負責人任免之同意"},{"start":18487.07,"end":18510.013,"text":"七 經費之籌募八 其他重大事項之審議第十二條 董事會每三個月開會一次必要時得召開臨時會議 由董事長召集並擔任主席董事會會議應有郭班碩董事之出席其決議應有出席董事郭班碩之同意"},{"start":18510.473,"end":18534.972,"text":"但請條第一款至第六款及第八款之決議應由董事會三分之二以上董事出席並經董事總人數過半數之同意第十三條監視之職權如下一 決算報告之審核二 業務財務狀況之監督三 財務賬冊文件及財產資料之集合四 其他重大事項之審核或集合"},{"start":18535.852,"end":18563.229,"text":"監事單獨行使職權常務監事應代表全體監事列席董事會會議第十四條董事監事院長或與該等職務相當之人及其關係人之利益迴避事項依公職人員利益衝突迴避法之規定辦理違反前項規定致本院受有損害者行為人應對其負損害賠償責任第一項人員違反公職人員利益衝突迴避法之規定者"},{"start":18563.869,"end":18587.45,"text":"除依該法規定處罰外監督機關並得為適當之處置其處置之規定由監督機關定之董事監事及院長相互監不得有配偶或三星等以內血親陰親之關係董事監事及院長之配偶或其三星等以內之血親陰親不得擔任本院總務會計及人事職務"},{"start":18588.511,"end":18609.969,"text":"董事長及院長不得經用其配偶或三金等以內血清陰清擔任本院職務第15條董事兼是院長或與該等職務相當之人及其關係人不得與本院為買賣租賃承攬或其他交易行為但有下列情形經董事會特別決議同意者不在此限"},{"start":18610.669,"end":18637.943,"text":"一 依法令規定經由公平競爭方式以公告程序辦理之採購、標售、標租或招標設定用意物權二 執行國家建設公共政策或為公益用途申請承租、承購委託經營改良利用國有非公用不動產違反前項規定之本院受有損害者行為人應付損害賠償責任"},{"start":18639.204,"end":18657.984,"text":"第一項但書情形本院應將董事會特別決議內容與會後20日內報監督機關被查第十六條董事常務監事應親自出席列席董事會會議不得委託他原代理第十七條有下列情形情勢之一者"},{"start":18659.161,"end":18686.556,"text":"不得聘任為董事監事一 受監護宣告或輔助宣告尚未撤銷二 受有企圖行以上刑事判決確定而未受緩刑之宣告三 受破產宣告或依消費者債務清理條例經法院裁定開始清算程序尚未復權四 此羅公權尚未復權五 第43條安全查核未通過或拒絕接受查核"},{"start":18687.296,"end":18704.354,"text":"董事監事有前向各款情形追依或無故連續不出席列席董事會會議達三次者 應予解聘董事監事有下列各款情形涉及依者 得予解聘一 行為不檢或品性不端 致影響本院形象有確實證據"},{"start":18705.695,"end":18731.38,"text":"二 工作執行不力或代護職責有具體事實或違反聘約情節重大三 當屆至本院年度績效評鑑連續二年未達監督機關鎖定標準四 違反公務人員行政中立法執行事有確實證據五 就主管事件接受關說或請託或利用職務關係接受招待或饋贈至損害公益或本院利益有確實證據"},{"start":18733.22,"end":18761.034,"text":"6 非因職務之需要動用本院財產有確實證據7 違反第14條鎖定利益迴避規定或第15條第一項特定交易行為禁止之情事有確實證據8 其他不適任董事監視職位之行為前項各款情形監督機關於解聘前應給予當事人陳述意見及申辯之機會本院董事監視之聆聘解聘補聘之方式"},{"start":18761.454,"end":18784.978,"text":"及其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定之第十八條本院董事長董事常務監事及監事均為無己職第十九條本院置院長一人因具中醫臨床及大學學術主管相關經驗專任任期四年其滿得續聘一次由董事長提請董事會通過後聘任之解聘時一同"},{"start":18785.678,"end":18811.935,"text":"院長依本院規章董事會之決議及董事長之授權負責本院營運與管理業務之執行及督導依第四條第一項規定附設醫療機構並應列席董事會會議第十條第四項第十七條及第二十二條第六項有關董事及董事長之規定於院長准用之第二十條本院依第四條第一項規定附設醫療機構之負責人一人"},{"start":18813.916,"end":18814.176,"text":"第十四條"},{"start":18830.543,"end":18851.903,"text":"第17條及第22條第6款有關董事董事長監事院長或與該等職務相當之人之規定與第一項負責人準用之第三章業務及監督第21條本院應擬定發展目標及計畫提經董事會通過後報監督機關核定本院應訂定年度業務計畫及其預算"},{"start":18853.804,"end":18873.222,"text":"提經董事會通過後 報監督機關被查第二十二條監督機關對本院之監督權限如下一 發展目標及計畫之核定二 歸章年度業務計畫與預算年度執行成果及決算報告書之核定或被查三 財產及財務狀況之檢查四 業務績效之評鑑五 董事監視聆聘"},{"start":18879.548,"end":18900.966,"text":"解聘之建議六 董事監視與執行業務違反法令時得為必要之處分七 本院違反憲法法律法規命令時予以撤銷變更廢止限期改善停止執行或其他處分八 自有不動產處分或設定負擔之何可九 其他依法律所為之監督"},{"start":18902.347,"end":18920.247,"text":"第二十三條監督機關應邀集有關機關代表學者專家及社會公正人士辦理本院之績效評鑑其中學者專家及社會公正人士之人數合計不得少於二分之一前項評鑑成員任意性別不得少於總人數三分之一"},{"start":18920.808,"end":18939.213,"text":"第一項績效評鑑之成員資格條件領聘程序績效評鑑之方式程序及其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定職績效評鑑之內容如下一本院年度執行成果之考核二本院業務績效及目標達成率之評量三"},{"start":18939.873,"end":18955.808,"text":"本院年度自籌款比率達成率四本院經費合撥之建議五其他有關事項第四章會計及財務第二十四條本院會計制度應與政府會計年度一致本院之會計制度應行"},{"start":18957.129,"end":18981.667,"text":"1 行政法人会计制度设置相关规定定定本院财务报表应委请会计师进行查核签证第25条本院于会计年度终了后三个月内应将年度执行成果及决算报告书委托会计师查核签证提交董事会审议并经全体监视通过后报监督机关备查并送审计机关"},{"start":18982.948,"end":18999.934,"text":"前項決算報告審計機關得審計之審計結果得送監督機關或其他相關機關為必要之處理第26條本院成立年度之政府合撥經費得由原機關或監督機關在原預算範圍內調整因應"},{"start":19001.815,"end":19019.599,"text":"不受預算法第62條及第63條規定之限制第27條本院因業務必要使用之公有財產的架構或由政府機關以捐贈出租或無償提供使用方式為之其為捐贈者不適用預算法第25條第26條土地法第25條國有財產法第28條"},{"start":19024.74,"end":19049.098,"text":"第60條及地方政府公產管理法令之相關規定成像架構公有土地之價款以當期公告土地限值為準地上建築改良物資價款以稅捐基層機關提供之當年期評定限值為準無該當年期評定限值者依公產管理機關估價結果為準"},{"start":19050.439,"end":19076.847,"text":"本院以政府機關合撥經費指定用途所購置之財產為公有財產第一項出租無償提供使用及前項之公有財產以外由本院取得之財產為自有財產第一項無償提供使用及第三項之公有財產由本院登記為管理人所身之受益列為本院之收入不受國有財產法第七條第一項及地方政府公產"},{"start":19078.267,"end":19098.183,"text":"管理法令相關規定之限制其管理、使用、受益及其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定之公有財產用途廢止時應移交各級政府公產管理機關接管本院接受捐贈之公有不動產不需使用時應歸還原捐贈機關不得任意處分"},{"start":19101.405,"end":19117.751,"text":"第28條政府機關合博本院資金費應依法定預算程序辦理並受審計監督前項經費超過本院當年度預算收入來源50%者應由監督機關將本院年度預算書送立法院審議"},{"start":19118.931,"end":19137.801,"text":"本院自主裁员及其运用管理相关事项由本院定定收支管理规章报监督机关备查第29条本院应举借之债务以具自偿性职者为限并应先送监督机关核定预算执行结果有不能自偿之余时"},{"start":19138.621,"end":19154.048,"text":"因即檢討提出改善措施報監督機關核定第30條本院之採購作業因本公正公公開公正之原則除符合我國締結之條約協定或政府採購法第4條第一項鎖定情形"},{"start":19154.748,"end":19170.919,"text":"因依各該規定辦理外不適用政府採購法之規定其採購作業實施規章應報監督機關核定前項因依政府採購法第四條第一項規定辦理之採購與其他法律另有規定者從其規定"},{"start":19172.372,"end":19184.301,"text":"第31條本院制相關資訊應依政府資訊公開法相關規定公開之 其年度財務報表年度資訊年度業務資訊及年度績效評鑑報告應主動公開 前項年度績效評鑑報告"},{"start":19189.245,"end":19215.751,"text":"應由監督機關提交分析報告送立法院被查必要時立法院得要求監督機關首長率同本院之董事長院長或相關主管之立法院報告營運狀況並備詢第五章人事及限職人員權益保障第32條本條例實行前衛生福利部國家中醫藥研究所現有編制內醫工人員相關應用法律應用人員"},{"start":19217.071,"end":19244.723,"text":"與機關改制之日 隨同移轉本院繼續任用者仍具公務人員身份 其任用服務 懲戒 考機 訓練 進修奉給 保險 保障 結社 退休 資遣 撫恤 福利及其他權益事項均依原適用之公務人員相關法令規法令辦理但不能依原適用之公務人員相關法令辦理之事項由行政院會同考試院另定辦法行之"},{"start":19245.908,"end":19263.088,"text":"前項繼續任用人員中人事及主計人員之管理與其他公務人員同前二項人員得依改制前全員使用之組織法規與手掌以外之職務範圍內依法規定辦理升遷及全序審定"},{"start":19263.829,"end":19281.107,"text":"第一項及第二項人員得隨時依其適用之公務人員退休資遣法令辦理退休資遣後擔任本院職務不加發七個月奉集總額未住金並改依本院人事管理規章禁用第三十三條"},{"start":19281.96,"end":19303.413,"text":"原機關公務人員不願隨同移轉本願者由監督機關協助安置或於機關改資之日依其適用至公務人員退休之前法令規辦理退休之前並一次加發7個月之奉給總額未註金但已達屆齡退休之人員依其提前退休之月數發給之"},{"start":19304.754,"end":19333.885,"text":"前項人員與退休資險生效日期7個月內在任公務人員退休資錢撫恤法第77條第一項各款所列職務之一前每月之領薪酬總額超過法定基本工資應由在任機關扣除其退休資錢月數之縫及總額未註金後縮繳其餘額並繳回監督機關前二項所稱縫及總額未註金指退休資錢當月所支"},{"start":19334.805,"end":19356.983,"text":"本年供奉專業家籍及主管職務家籍第34條原機關信有依聘用人員聘用條例聘用之人員其聘用契約尚未期滿且不願隨同移轉本願者於機關改日改制之日辦理離職除依各機關學校評估人員離職給予辦法辦理外"},{"start":19357.763,"end":19380.706,"text":"並以其最後債值10月之報酬為計算標準,疑似加發7個月之月之報酬但契約將借滿人員,以其提前離職至月數發給之前項人員於離職生肖日起7個月內,在任《退伏法》第77條第一項各款所列職務之一且每月之領薪酬總額超過法定基本工資"},{"start":19381.787,"end":19407.547,"text":"應由在任機關扣除離職月數至月資報酬後縮繳其餘額並繳回監督機關原機關聘用人員於機關改制之日隨同移轉本院者應於改制之日辦理離職並依各機關學校聘僱人員離職給予辦法規定辦理不加發七個月月資報酬並改依本院人事管理規章禁用"},{"start":19408.368,"end":19427.697,"text":"第三十五條原機關現有依供有管理要點經用之機供不願隨同移轉本願者有監督機關協助安置或於機關改制之日依其適用之退休之前法令辦理退休之前並疑似加發七個月之享給總額未住經"},{"start":19428.757,"end":19455.265,"text":"但已達屆齡退休之人員 依其提前退休之月數發給之前項人員於退休之前生肖日起 七個月內在任退服法第77條第一項所各款所列職務之一且每月之領薪酬總額超過法定基本工資應由在任機關扣除其退休之前月數之享給總額未住經後收繳其餘額並繳回監督機關"},{"start":19459.488,"end":19486.446,"text":"第前二項所稱享給總額未住金至退休之前當月所資本年供奉享及專業佳績原機關現有之技工於機關改制之日隨同移轉本院者應於改制之日依其適用至退休之前法令辦理退休之前不加發七個月享給總額未住金並改依本院人事管理規章禁用"},{"start":19487.106,"end":19514.115,"text":"第36條原機關現有之約用人員與機關改制之日隨同移轉本院服務者與機關改制之日依本院人事管理規章重新簽訂勞動契約及改制前後休假及退休年資因何並計算不願隨同移轉且契約尚未期滿者或屬於不定期契約者與機關改制之日依原適用之相關勞動法令"},{"start":19515.915,"end":19535.211,"text":"管理規定或勞動契約辦理退休之前第37條 原機關改之前依勞動計準法提撥之勞工退休準備金應隨同具有勞動計準法退休金制度工作免資之人員移轉於本院成立後移轉至本院勞工退休準備金專戶存儲"},{"start":19537.212,"end":19553.202,"text":"第38條原機關改制所需加發至未住經及資遣費得由監督機關在原預算範圍內調整支應不受預算法第62條及第63條規定之限制第39條曾配合機關"},{"start":19554.443,"end":19573.591,"text":"學校業務調整而精簡整併改例改制或裁撤依據相關法令規定辦理退休資遣或離職指令加發給予者不適用本條例有關加發未住金或月資報酬之規定第四條原機關休職停止"},{"start":19574.249,"end":19602.909,"text":"及留職停薪之公務人員因機關改制隨同遺傳本院者由原機關列冊移交本院繼續執行留職停薪人員提前申請回職復薪者應准其回職復薪依法復職或回職復薪不願配合遺傳者得准用第三十三條規定由監督機關協助安置或辦理退休之前並加法未注定第四十一條原機關依教育人用條例規定平等人員准用第三十二條三十三條第三十二"},{"start":19603.289,"end":19622.888,"text":"三十八條至前條規定第十四條本院金融制人員以本院人事管理規章規定不具公務人員身份其權利義務關係應於七月中明定第四十三條本院人員應依生命程度接受一般或特殊安全查核一般安全查核由監督機關依規定辦理涉及國家安全或重大利益之特殊安全查核"},{"start":19623.628,"end":19639.834,"text":"應有監督機關會同相關機關辦理之對於規劃禁用之人員應先行辦理安全查核拒絕接受查核或查核未通過者應不予禁用依法應實施安全查核而待於辦理查核之相關機關人員請接重大者應移送監督監察院依法處理"},{"start":19640.322,"end":19660.751,"text":"安全查核之使用對象程序內容救濟等相關事項之辦法由監督機關會商有關機關定制第6章負責第44條對於本院之行政處分不負責得依訴願法規定向監督機關提起訴願第45條本院引起事變更或績效不彰之不能達成設定目的時由監督機關提請行政院同意後解散之本院解散時"},{"start":19661.772,"end":19677.029,"text":"繼續任用人員由監督機關協助安置之或以其適用之公務人員交易人員法令規定辦理退休自行其餘人員終止及契約其剩餘財產歸屬國庫及相關債務由監督機關概括承受第46條本條例實行日期由行政院定之"},{"start":19678.103,"end":19699.321,"text":"瓜胡二委員 宗家兵等提案名稱國家中醫研究院實質條例草案第一章總則第一條為推動國家中醫藥發展政策配合生醫選舉醫療產業策略辦理中醫藥臨床精準治療研究增進國人健康及公眾利益特設國家中醫研究院並制定本條例第二條從行政院提案第三條"},{"start":19700.001,"end":19729.025,"text":"本院之業務範圍如下一 辦理中醫醫療業務及臨床醫療研究業務二 辦理中醫藥製成製劑原型藥理檢驗及試驗研究業務三 辦理藥用植物種植及觀量業務四 辦理中醫藥典籍典藏及觀量業務五 辦理國內外中醫藥科技研究合作及科技專業人才培訓業務六 辦理各機構及廠管及營運及管理業務七 辦理科技研發產品之銷售技術移轉及技術服務八"},{"start":19731.1,"end":19756.176,"text":"經監督機關指示辦理中醫藥研究發展業務就應法應執行事項時其他與本院設立目的相關知識向本院得以顯像任務負責相關機構及場館第1項第7關有關科技研發產品之銷售科技合作技術與專機技術服務等相關辦法由衛生福利部定之第4條依政府採購法第105條第1項第3關規定辦理採購者本院視為公務機關衛生福利部視為其上級機關第5條"},{"start":19760.018,"end":19784.555,"text":"處第一款修正為依本院政府之合博及捐助其餘同行政院提案 第六條 處第一項默劇修正為報請監督機關核備及第二項手續修正為本院就期執行之公共事務默劇修正為報請監督機關被裁劃其餘同行政院提案 第二章 主持 第七條本院設董事會之董事長十一人至十五人 由監督機關就下列人員 臨選聘任之 解併十一同"},{"start":19785.015,"end":19802.562,"text":"一 政府機關 相關機關代表五人 其中政府及衛生福利部次長及中醫藥司司長為當然董事二 醫藥衛生法律企業經營或管理相關職業者 專家六人至十人請向董事任意性別不得少於總人數三分之一第八條本院涉監事會至監事三人至五人求監督機關就下列人員遴選"},{"start":19803.622,"end":19822.093,"text":"併任之解聘時一統一政府相關機關代表一人二醫藥衛生相關之學者專家一人三法律會計或財務相關之學者專家一人至三人請向監視任意性別不得少於總人數三分之一監視應互選一人為常務監視第九條第一項統行政院提案代表政府機關之董事及監事應其"},{"start":19822.873,"end":19842.165,"text":"因依其職務移動改併不受傾向需聘資助支援制 董事指揮監事因依政府衛生福利部部長職務移動改併不受傾向支援制第1第7條第1項第2款前條第1項第2款第10第3款規定聘任制董事指揮監事任期屆滿前出業者有監督機關臨聘補聘制其任期至原任者任期屆滿時為止第10條"},{"start":19845.939,"end":19865.74,"text":"本院自董事長任由衛生福利部部長接任第二項除第三具具所增加其外其餘同行政院提案第十條第三項第十一條董事會自治權如下一本院發展目標及計畫之審議二年度營運目標及營運計畫之審議三年度預算及決算報告之審議四規章之審議"},{"start":19866.801,"end":19892.663,"text":"五 同行之院提案 六 院長之薪資及任免 七 經費之籌募 八 本條例鎖定應經董事會決議 十項之審議 九 同行之院提案第八款第十二條 第一項 除首句末的逗號改成分號 其餘同行之院提案 董事會會議應有國辦署董事之出席其決議應有出席董事國辦署之同意 但請條第一款之第幾款之決議應有董事董"},{"start":19893.504,"end":19922.676,"text":"董事總人數過半數之同意 第43條除序文修正為監事會支持權如下第一款修正為依年度業務決算之審核其餘同行政院提案第44條除第一項第二句改為應據中醫臨床或教學管理相關經驗其餘同行政院提案第49條第一項院長出任年齡不得逾六十五歲任期屆滿前年滿七十歲的引起更換但有特殊考量經監督機關和接種者不在此限第三項除默劇修正為"},{"start":19924.498,"end":19953.821,"text":"負責本院營運與管理業務之執行及參與董事會會議外其餘同行政院提案第十五條第二項第十五條董事監事及院長應遵守利益迴避原則不得假借職務上之權利機會或方法圖謀本人或關閑之權利益其利益迴避範圍及違反董事及違反時處置之準則由監督機關定之董事監事及院長項目間不得有配偶或三件理念寫進一定之關係第三項同行政院提案第十四條第四項第四項同行政院提案第十四條第五項"},{"start":19955.472,"end":19972.927,"text":"本條例所證關係人是指配偶或惡情等內之親屬第16條 董事監視院長或其關係人不得於本院為買賣註定承攬等交易行為但有正當理由 經董事會特別決議則不在此限第二項 同行之願提案第15條第二項 第三項 同行之願提案第15條 第三項"},{"start":19973.807,"end":20001.178,"text":"第十條 董事監事常務監事應親自出席列席董事會會議監事會會議不得委託大人代理出席第十八條 本院董事長董事及監事均為無席職第十九條 有下立其請之一者不得聘任為董事監事及院長第一款 第二款 同行政院提案第十七條 第一 第二款三 受破產 宣告尚未復權四 同行政院提案 第十七條 第四款五 經公立醫院證明身體障礙不能執行職務"},{"start":20002.861,"end":20020.479,"text":"董事監事有欠向各款情形追憶或無故連續不出席列席董事會監事會議達三次應予解聘董事監事有下列各款情形追憶者不得予解聘依行為不檢或品性不端自影響本院形象第二款第三款同行政院提案第十幾條第二款第三款"},{"start":20021.44,"end":20038.285,"text":"第四違反公務員行蹤立法之情事五就主管事件接受關說或請託或利用職務關係接受招待或規正至損害公益或本願利益六非應職務之需要動用本願財產其違反本條例所定利益迴避原則或第十七條第一項前段特定"},{"start":20039.105,"end":20058.744,"text":"交易行為禁止知情事第八款同行願提案第十幾條第八款第四項第五項同行願提案第十幾條第四項第五項第三章業務監督及資訊公開第十條本院因擬定發展目標及計劃報請監督機關核定本院因依核定自發展目標及計劃訂定年度業務計劃及其預算提經董事會通過後報請監督機關備查"},{"start":20060.936,"end":20080.524,"text":"第二十一條本院應於會計年度終了後三個月內將年度營運執行證供及措施決算報告委委託會計師查核簽證提經董事會會議審議必經檢視會通過後報請監督官被查並送審計機關第二項同行之間提案第二十五條第二項第二設條除第二款手續修正為"},{"start":20082.204,"end":20106.136,"text":"規章年度營運計畫預算及第五款修正為五 董事監視及致臨選及建議及第七款手續修正為本院有違反憲法及第八款週段的多一個期次其餘同行政提案第22條 第二三條監督機關醫療及有關機關代表學者專家及社會工作人士辦理本院下列項目之績效評鑑 第一二款同行政提案第二三條 第一二款"},{"start":20107.637,"end":20126.755,"text":"第四項 第三項同行之便提案第四款 第四款同行之便提案第五款請向績效評鑑之學者提出 社會動力人士之人數不得少於二分之一 且人體性別不得少於總人數三分之一第一項績效評鑑之方式程序及其他相關事項的辦法由監督機關定之第二十四條 除第一項手續修正為本運相關資訊 第二項的默劇修正為"},{"start":20127.836,"end":20148.921,"text":"必要時立法院得要求建築機關稅首長率同本院董事長外其餘同行政院提案第31條第4章會計財務財產及租稅減免第25條足第三項手續修正為本院制裁務外表外其餘同行政院提案第24條第26條衛生福利部國家中醫藥研究所資資產及負債與感知之日起由本院概括承受"},{"start":20149.381,"end":20167.614,"text":"不受預算法第25條及第80條規定制限制本院成立年度制政府合撥經費得由監督機關與原資管範圍內調整經營不受預算法第62條及第23條規定制限制第二支基調本院設立時因應業務必須需使用公有財財者不動產得由該公有不動產資助團機關無償提供"},{"start":20169.395,"end":20187.331,"text":"或捐贈本院使用動產得有監督機關捐贈本院或無償提供使用採捐贈者不使用歷史上法第25條及第26條國有財政法第28條及第6條相關規定本院設立後因業務需要得架構公有不動產土價值價款以當期公告土地限制為準"},{"start":20188.472,"end":20207.177,"text":"地上建築改良物質價款 以設計機關提供至當年期平均限值為準 無該當年期平均限值的移工產材管理機關估價結果為準第三項 從行政提案第二十條第三項第一項 無償提供使用及其他公有財產 由本院取得資產為自由財產"},{"start":20208.317,"end":20223.133,"text":"第一項無償提供使用及第三項之公有財產與本源為管理人不得為任何主份但所證之收益為本源之收入不如六不受國有財產法第七條第一項規定之原則其三使用受益及領相關事項的辦法有定居關停止"},{"start":20223.914,"end":20239.883,"text":"第六項 同行政提案 第六項 本院接受捐贈之公有不動產不需使用時 引返還原生居居關不得任意處分第二十八條 第一項 同行政提案 政府計劃合博資經費超過本院當年度預算收入來源百分之五十的 應由建築機關向本院年度預算處送請立法院審議 第三項 默劇處"},{"start":20241.064,"end":20260.243,"text":"第三項除默劇修正委報請監督官被查外局同行政院提案第二十九條本院所舉的製裁以去諮商性執委者並應先從監督官核定預算執行結果與否不能諮商至於是因其檢討檢討提出改善措施報請監督官核定第三十條本院製裁過作業因本公證公"},{"start":20261.564,"end":20274.997,"text":"公開公正公平之原則除符合國際協議之條約協定或政府財管第四條決定規定因依各該規定辦理外不使用政府財管法治規定及採過作業實施規章應報請證據官核定前項因依政府財管第四條規定辦理之採購與其他"},{"start":20277.399,"end":20292.36,"text":"請在法律內容規則外重提規定第三條本院承接各機關委託研究計劃免徵營業稅第五項張明桐行政院提案第一項主守具修正為衛生福利部國家中醫藥研究所原有免治內移工人員相關應用法律規定的派出人員及與同行任意提案"},{"start":20293.542,"end":20308.003,"text":"第二項 處第二項手續修正為前項人員得以改之前原適用組織法規與同行政院提案第三項 同行政院提案第三十二條第四項 第三十三條第一項 處第三具修正為或與本院成立之日起與同行政院提案"},{"start":20308.744,"end":20329.6,"text":"前向人員於退休之前 生肖日七個月內在任有給公職或行政法人職務時 應由專任機關或行政法人收繳扣除離職月數之縫集總額未住經繳扣 前向所徵縫集總額未住經期退休之前 當月所致年本縫與技術或專業家籍與主管職務家籍第三四條原機關隨同本院"},{"start":20331.462,"end":20350.296,"text":"隨從遺傳本院之各類評估人員其負面之工資保險退休資權輔具福利等權益事項依各類評估人員使用之相關籠統勞動法定管理規定或勞動機會辦理前項評估人體改之後前後負面之銀河拼計算臨時自授原故原機關之日起得繼續使用原選擇之退休制度"},{"start":20351.356,"end":20379.975,"text":"使用勞動基準法推薦給付的其退休金支援支援養肥給予標準一概法第4條第5條第86條規定積算合併給付改制前後退休金加給總額不得超過退休時45個月平均工資第35條原計關制各類聘僱人員及聘用企業尚未期滿且不願隨從預算者與本院成立日期有限聚館予以安置如法安置的辦理原制依原適用之相關努動法令管理規定勞動企業辦理是退休之前分段積算合併給付"},{"start":20381.777,"end":20401.53,"text":"並以其最後在職時月資報酬為其根本標準 以此下發7個月資月資報酬 但7月將期滿人員或已達屆齡退休人員以其提前離職或退休之月數發給之請向評估人與退休之前撤銷至期7個月內在任由其公職或行政法人職務及應有財政機關或行政法人修繳其扣除離職月數之剩餘月資"},{"start":20403.231,"end":20423.511,"text":"主委主席腳步 原機關現有依行政院暨所屬機關約顧人員 約顧平衡辦法 約顧人員其適用勞動人員法不適用第一項及前項發展屬性規定並依端屬性規定及勞動退休金套利相關規定發起退休金支錢費第三要原機關致定期契約工得隨同遺傳職本員服務並依原契約繼續工作至契約期滿為止"},{"start":20424.412,"end":20450.353,"text":"本院因其勞工推進條例規定其條提交推進至個人專屋不願隨從遺傳者終止及原契約並依該條例規定方式給自檢費第三是要原機關改制前因勞動軍法或勞工推進條例推播至勞工推進準備金因於本院成立之遺傳至本院勞工推進準備之專戶存儲原機關改制所需加發至維促經濟自檢費得由衛生福利部代理員算範圍內調整至已補助於專屋第16條第6範圍內規定自限制"},{"start":20451.397,"end":20474.562,"text":"第38條 休職停職及留職體制人員由原機關策略移交本院繼續執行經休回任以法復職復回復職復職人員的權利是本院復職復職人員三項規定有監督機關協助安置並辦理退休之前或加保衛助金第39條原機關教育人員條例規定聘用人員准許第三三三三十二三三三項三八條之規定第40條"},{"start":20476.263,"end":20497.095,"text":"本院設立後 受僱自行人員補助 工作人員成分者應適用勞動基礎法退休金資金分給予以勞動基礎法頒利 請向人員相關權利義務事項定義 勞動企業及工作規則規範之第2章負責第11條 對於本院自行人員不負責的疑訴願法制規定 向檢討機關提起訴願第12條 從行政提案第15條第1項"},{"start":20500.253,"end":20521.714,"text":"本院解散時繼續任務人員由衛生福利部協助安置之或依其適用之公務人員法令規定辦理退休之前其餘任務人員應終止其契約其生育財產繳庫其相關債務由其捐給官該作陳述第3條中醫藥發展法有關衛生福利部國家中醫藥研究所之任務由本院陳述第4條同行認定第46條"},{"start":20525.815,"end":20546.109,"text":"國家中醫藥研究所設置條例草案第一章總則第一條為提升中醫藥臨床精準醫學制研究能力執行國家中醫藥政策與計畫促進中醫藥產業創新及發展增進國人健康福祉特徵國家中醫藥研究院並設置並制定本條例第二條同行志願提案第三條本院制業務範圍如下"},{"start":20547.15,"end":20566.111,"text":"一中醫醫療醫務制實行推廣及醫療之研究二中醫藥中醫基礎醫學之研究第三四五六款分別同行政院院第四五六七款七中醫診療儀器及軟體研發八中醫藥產品研發技術遺傳及技術服務九其他符合本院設置目的相關事項"},{"start":20566.972,"end":20582.505,"text":"第四條本院得益前條第一款輻射中醫教學研究醫療機構第五條同委員同同委員重加併等提案第四條第六條除第一款修正為政府制荷波集軍補助其餘同行政用提案第七條除第二項第二具修正為"},{"start":20584.467,"end":20609.47,"text":"在不抵觸有關法律或法規命令範圍內給予均衡委員專家病毒提案第6條第二章組織第8條本院涉組董事會自董事長11人至15人由監督機關就下列人員臨選臨病至解併11種一政府相關機關代表二醫藥衛生或法律相關之學者專家三民間企業經營管理專家請前向第一款之董事不得欲董事總人數三分之一第一項董事任意型別不得少總人數三分之一"},{"start":20610.01,"end":20624.149,"text":"第9條 序文同委員 中央病人提案第8條 序文1 政府相關機關地表2 醫藥衛生相關職學者專家3 法律會計或財務相關職學者專家監視醫護選議認為常務監製 第三項同委員 中央病人提案第8條 第三項"},{"start":20625.595,"end":20646.853,"text":"第十條 處第一項手續修正為董事監事任期為三年其餘同委員重要病人提案第九條第一項代表政府機關出任之董事及監事應依其職務異動改聘不受前項區平次數監視第三項處手續修正為第一第八條第一項第二款餘同總委員重要病人提案第九條第三項第十一條同委員重要病人提案第十條"},{"start":20647.634,"end":20659.731,"text":"第十二條 除第一款修正為一 發展目標及企劃之成一 第六款修正為六 院長之任免於同委員中下併等提案 第十一條第十三條及第十四條分別委員中下併等提案 第十二條及第十三條"},{"start":20661.297,"end":20686.487,"text":"第15條 除第一項修正為本院製劇院長任 依據中醫臨床或教學管理相關經驗專業 有董事長提請董事會通過評認之結併時其餘同委員中央病人提案第14條 第16條到第19條分別同委員中央病人提案第15條到第18條第20條 除第一項除第三項第一款及第二款本院均修正為本中醫院其餘同委員中央病人提案第19條"},{"start":20689.042,"end":20708.947,"text":"第三張張明同委員重要病人提案第二十一條到第二十三條分別同委員重要病人提案第二十條第二到第二十二條第二十四條監督機關第一款及第三項同委員重要病人第二十三條第一項第一款及第三項第二十五條同委員重要病人提案第二十四條第四張張明"},{"start":20711.107,"end":20729.416,"text":"同委員中央評審提案的章名第26條到第27條分別同委員中央評審提案第25條到第26條第28條除第7項的返還修正為過還外其餘同委員中央評審提案第27條第29條到第32條分別同委員中央評審提案第28條到第31條第5章章評審提案第33條到第30條分別同委員中央評審提案第33條"},{"start":20739.642,"end":20764.543,"text":"第三十五條 第三十六條除條內評估的故修正為有人之旁的故外 其餘均同行委員中央評等提案第三十七條到第四十一條分別同委員中央評等案第三十六條第四十條第六張張明負責第四十二條到第四十五條分別同委員中央評等案第四十三條 四十四條 四十三條 四十四條瓜浦市委員"},{"start":20766.071,"end":20786.606,"text":"委員彥志等提案 名稱全部章名及條文均同 委員成因等提案 括弧五委員莊瑞雄等提案 除了第34條第35條條文內的拼顧的顧改成有人自判的顧之外 其餘名稱各章章名及條文均同委員莊家斌等提案 括弧六本院劉建國等提案"},{"start":20789.727,"end":20804.474,"text":"名稱第3張名第1到3條軍統委員中加品的提案第4條本院得依前條第1款輔助中醫教學研究醫療機構相關醫療機構設置得優先以其他醫療研究機構設置於相同或臨近之位置"},{"start":20805.154,"end":20822.59,"text":"第五條 從同委員重災病人提案第四條 第六條 出第一款修正為依政府之荷波集軍補助案 其餘同行政提案第五條第七條 同委員重災病人提案第六條 第二張組織第八條到第十九條分別同委員重災病人提案第七條到第十八條"},{"start":20824.656,"end":20844.457,"text":"第20條除第3項第1款及第5款條文內的本院修正為本中境外其餘同委員中央病毒提案第19條第3張張明同委員中央病毒提案第21條到第25條分別同委員中央病毒提案第20條到第24條第4張張明同委員中央病毒提案第26條到第27條同委員中央病毒提案第25條到第26條第28條"},{"start":20847.973,"end":20865.684,"text":"第7項 修條文內的法案修正為規範法案其餘同委員中央評審第27條 第29條到第32條同委員中央評審提案第28條 第31條第5章 章民同期支援提案第33條至第41條分別同委員中央評審提案第32條 第40條第6章 章民負責第42條至第45條分別同委員中央評審提案第41條到第44條"},{"start":20876.266,"end":20877.743,"text":"華府紀委員 林蔚琴等提案"},{"start":20880.12,"end":20906.852,"text":"名稱第一張張明第一條第二條均同委員中加病等提案第三條除第三款修正為三辦理藥用植物種植開發灌籃業務第五條修正為五辦理國內外中醫藥科技研究合作科技專業人才培訓及品質提升業務第七款等及修改為頓化或其餘同委員中加病等提案第四條同委員中加病等提案第五條同委員劉建國等提案第六條"},{"start":20907.792,"end":20931.038,"text":"第6條 第二張章名機第7到18條均同委員中加併等提案第19條同委員劉建國等提案第20條第三張章名機第20條到第24條均同委員中加併等提案第4張章名第26條第27條均同委員中加併等提案第28條同委員劉建國等提案第28條第29條第32條分別同委員中加併提案第28條第31條"},{"start":20937.02,"end":20951.708,"text":"第5張張炳同行政院提案第33條第到第38條均分別同委員朱鑾炳提案第33條第37條第39條楚江第5具的第33條修正為第35條外局均同委員"},{"start":20952.256,"end":20977.33,"text":"中大病人提案第38條第40條 委員機關依教育人員用條例規定評議任員 準用第33條 第33條 第38條及第39條規定第41條 同委員中大病人提案第40條 第6章負責第42條至第45條分別為同委員中大病人提案第40條到第44條委員審法會等提案對照委員中大病人提案 除加"},{"start":20979.298,"end":21006.134,"text":"第十六條修正為第十六條 董事監視院長或其關係人不得與本院為買賣助力承攬等交易行為違反傾向規定 據本院受損害者行為人應付損害被害者責任其餘及第三十四條三十五條條文內的聘僱的故改修正為有人自辦的故之外其餘名稱各張張名詞條文均同委員村長並等提案委員王玉明等提案"},{"start":21007.915,"end":21023.155,"text":"明車國家中醫藥研究院實質條例第一章總則第一條為推動 除將第二句修正為特赦國家中醫藥研究院並制定本條例外其餘同委員專家病人提案第二條及第三條均同委員專家病人提案"},{"start":21024.229,"end":21045.852,"text":"第四條 同委員郵件國等提案 第四條 第五條除據所修正列為公務機關外其餘同委員重災病人提案 第六條同委員陳穎等提案 第七條同委員重災病人 第六條 第二條 第二章組織 第八條本院設董事會執董事執董事席 任職十五人郵件機關就下列人員領選"},{"start":21047.662,"end":21048.282,"text":"提請行政院職業職業職業職業職業職業職業職業職業職業職業職業職業職業"},{"start":21070.792,"end":21091.651,"text":"總人數二分之一 第一項 董事任意性別不得少 總人數三分之一 第九條本院之監事三人之五人 有監事官就下列人員臨選提起行政院長批准之結聘者一同一 政府相關機關構代表二 中醫藥衛生相關之學者專家三 法律 會計或財務相關之學者專家監事因互選認為強無監事第一項監事任意性別不得少 總人數三分之一 第十條"},{"start":21093.598,"end":21119.366,"text":"董事監事任期為三年期滿的續聘一次續聘人數一達其總人數三分之一以上並不得於總人數三分之二一第八條第一項第一款及前交第一項第一款規定代表政府機關或出任董事監事因其政府移動改變不受前項續聘制度限制一第八條第一項第二款第三款及前交第一項第二款第三款規定聘人者董事監事任期限滿期出業者有監督官臨選提醒勤務院長不聘職"},{"start":21120.445,"end":21137.321,"text":"執行期至原則任期屆滿時為止本院董事監視之領聘解聘不應支持方式及其他相關接種方法由監管提出第四條通常病委同委員同同病委員第十二條除第一款第二第二款分別修正為一本院"},{"start":21138.782,"end":21166.284,"text":"發展目標及計畫之誠意 二 年度業務目標及營運計畫之誠意分別修正其餘通委員誠意等提案 第十三條除將第一項手續修正為董事會會議每三個月開設一次 其第二項默劇修正為應有董事總額過半數值同意外其餘通委員誠意等提案 第十四條監視之職員局下一業務財務狀況之監督 二財務章冊文件及財產資料之契合 三決算報告之審核 四其他中間事項之審核及集合"},{"start":21167.645,"end":21186.373,"text":"監事單獨行事職權常務監事應代表群體監事列席董事會會議第十五條除第一項中斷修正為任期三年期滿德區評一次及第二項默劇修正為經行政院核准者不再實現其與同委員呈一等提案第十六條第一項除將第二劇假借修正為假借及默劇修正為"},{"start":21188.024,"end":21196.378,"text":"其利益迴避範圍及不然之有建築計劃定義區同委員呈一點提案第17條主張第二項模具修正為行為人應應對其"},{"start":21200.106,"end":21218.226,"text":"服務所賠償則外 區域同委員成立點提案第十八條 董事常務監事應親自出席列席董事會會議不得委託大臣處代理出席第十條 同委員成立點提案第二十條 區委員及第一項第一項 第二項 同委員成立點提案董事監事及院長有下立行公安情形則不得於解聘"},{"start":21219.764,"end":21238.592,"text":"一 行為不檢或品勤不端 致影響本院實際上有確實證據二 工作執行不力或逮捕職責有具體事實三 違反評約情節重大四 當屆任期內 致本院年度績效評鑑 連續二年未達監督機關所定基準五 違反公務人員行動立法及經濟有確實證據六 具有阻礙事件"},{"start":21239.792,"end":21266.01,"text":"接受關稅或請求或利用職務關係接受招待或虧損損害公益或本盈利益有確實證據 七非依職務及需要動用本盈利益有確實證據 八違反本條例鎖定利益迴避原則或遞製第一項前提案特定交易行為禁止有確實證據 九其他有不施任董事監事及院長職位自行為牽強各款情形監督機關與絕併者因應當事人懲處意境及身邊職會第三章同情證提案第十一條"},{"start":21266.81,"end":21273.216,"text":"本院營養廳發展目標及計劃並把請求決定本院營養廳點數計劃及機會算提成 董事會通過把請求決定這12條"},{"start":21275.946,"end":21304.607,"text":"會計年度中了後 而該院本院營將營運成果及收支報告舉辦報應委託會計師查核簽證提交董事會審議並經監事通過後報請監督官被查及送審計機關第二三條 處將第一款第二具修正為年度計算業務與預算及四款具首修正為營運第五款修正為董事監事臨選集結第七款修正為本院文法憲法法律法律規定域撤銷變更廢止限制改善停止執行或其他其餘同委員呈一點責任"},{"start":21305.547,"end":21328.208,"text":"第二十四條 主項第三款修正為本院年度自籌款比例查證據第二項修正為前項學者專家及諮詢者不得少於三分之一及三分之一及餘通委員及餘通委員專業病人提案第二十三條 第四章會計財務及諮詢公開第十五條 所需修正為本院自會計年度及餘通行政院提案第二十四條 第十二條同行政院提案第二十六條第二十七條 第二三四"},{"start":21329.669,"end":21355.062,"text":"第二項第二三四項同行政院提案第二項第二款第二項第三項第四項第二十八條除第三項默劇修正委罷請監督官被炒賣其餘同行政院提案第二十九條除默劇修正委如不能有如不能自償之餘因其檢討其處改善所應報警察罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪罪�"},{"start":21355.542,"end":21372.923,"text":"第五章人事及限職人員保障同行政提案第三色條除巨手的除第一項巨手的人員修正為工人及第二項的第二具修正為人事主計政府人就管理區同行政提案第三條除將第三項修正為第三項第二具修正為"},{"start":21374.585,"end":21390.066,"text":"指退休值欠當月所資年供奉及與技術或專業技術價值與同行政院提案第三這條除第一項前段修正為原機關現有依聘用人聘用條例及行政院與所屬中央及地方各機關約顧人約顧聘用辦法"},{"start":21392.869,"end":21417.892,"text":"願意僱用辦法 聘用及約顧人員其契約及聘僱契約尚未期滿 且不願遂同遺傳本院者其機關改制及辦理之處以各機關學校聘僱人員歷史及給予辦法規定辦理外其餘第三項聚首修正為原機關聘僱人員其餘同行政院提案第35條其餘第一項聚首修正為原機關現有之公有及第四項首聚修正為原機關公有外其餘同行政院提案第35條"},{"start":21419.946,"end":21447.616,"text":"第37條 均衡行政院第39條 第38條 原機關秀職停職及留職停職人員因機關改制本院而遂同遺專者 由原機關策略移交本院秩序執行 留職停職人員提前期負職者 因准期負職依法負職或揮之不盡的人 不願配合遺專者的準用第20條規定 由監督機關協助安置或辦理退休之前 並加發未住勤 例如上負責第39條 據首修正為對於本院之行政主辦不負責 於同行政院提案第44條"},{"start":21448.676,"end":21459.123,"text":"第40條 除第二項前段修正為本院決戰時繼續運用人員有建築機關行動案件或以期使用公務員法定規定辦理外其餘同行提案第45條第41條同行提案第46條掛附時委員郭育晴的提案"},{"start":21466.448,"end":21494.147,"text":"列到行政院提案 主張第五條第四款修正為四 營運技術移轉及研發成果收入及第七條第一項第三款修正為三 民間企業經營中醫師與中醫中藥產業代表並有團體代表或對中藥有重大貢獻及社會人士及第十六條默劇增列以視訊參與會議者次同親自出席以外其餘名稱各張上面及條文均同行政院提案宣讀完畢"},{"start":21497.335,"end":21503.897,"text":"好 我們提案條文已經宣讀完畢本次會議我們就進行到此結束現在上會"}]}},{"id":"17180","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17180","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d21ca6625277982f4bad8c7fb33f26dd9081761262ea6c52f61e3b8dc9b3e5ba75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳雪生等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員許宇甄等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員高金素梅等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-07T08:36:32+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-07T12:54:00+08:00","duration":15448,"影片長度":"04:17:28","委員發言時間":"08:36:32 - 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know you"},{"start":1417.643,"end":1427.817,"text":"報告委員會出席委員14人已足法定人數現在開會首先進行報告事項請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1429.946,"end":1455.085,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期教育及文化委員會第十二次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一一四年十二月二十四日上午九十一分至十十三十八分地點本案前嫌樓一零一會議室出席委員陳秀寶委員等十五人列席委員盧憲一委員等十四人列席人員教育部部長鄭英耀率統有關人員主席劉昭吉委員蘇斌報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定討論事項"},{"start":1459.975,"end":1487.575,"text":"繼續審查委員幻雲等16人拟據學校公參法草案案等35案審查委員顏寬恆等18人拟據校園飲食均衡及健康促進法草案等兩案決議一對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料後未及答覆部分請相關機關建訴以書面答覆二學校午餐及飲食教育條例相關草案另定期繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":1491.91,"end":1519.484,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議意識度有無錯誤或遺漏之處現在因為現場人數未達3人我們未來再確定 等一下再確定好 今天的議程是審查偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案相關草案共13案 包括的吳麗華委員等16人你據委員陳雪生等20人你據 委員陳"},{"start":1522.52,"end":1548.253,"text":"翁曉琳等17人擬拒還有台灣民眾黨擬拒委員洪孟凱等16人擬拒委員徐宇珍等18人委員萬美玲等16人委員黃建斌等16人委員廖偉祥等17人委員高晉素美等17人委員郭育晴等18人委員羅廷偉等16人擬拒的草案來進行詢答"},{"start":1551.127,"end":1574.014,"text":"首先介紹在場的委員伍麗華委員其次介紹與會的官員首先是教育部政務司長張亮萬堅"},{"start":1578.086,"end":1605.026,"text":"還有國民及學前教育署署長彭副園好其他的是屬於教育部的相關人員我們現在進行介紹法務部的檢察官李子齊原住民族委員會教育文化處副處長邱文龍衛生福利部社會及家庭署組長黃靈慧"},{"start":1610.342,"end":1629.559,"text":"行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處專門委員蔡佩蓉行政院人事行政總處給予福利處專門委員林志玉行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員王淺凱"},{"start":1635.564,"end":1656.522,"text":"內政部國土署建築管理組檢任政工程師盧昭宏你好內政部消防署預防調查組副組長張福仲內政部消防署預防調查組秘書吳佩如"},{"start":1666.629,"end":1674.121,"text":"現在先請提案委員進行提案說明有要做提案說明的嗎好 那請伍麗華委員"},{"start":1685.322,"end":1697.958,"text":"大家早安今天我有提出偏鄉地區學校教育發展條例的修正最主要是想要誠實面對一個事實這部條例已經嚴重脫離偏鄉教育的一個實際現場怎麼說呢"},{"start":1703.846,"end":1725.289,"text":"因為這部法從106年施行到今天花了大量的篇幅設計了一個所謂的專聘教師制度但實際上全台教師這個專聘的人數是零那制度存在在條文裡面可是卻從未真正的被使用"},{"start":1726.009,"end":1752.797,"text":"這就說明這個制度的設計有了問題所以我的第一個修法重點針對的是人才在偏鄉的第一線真正撐住教學現場的是由學校自行申選長期續聘的代理教師但是現行的條例只有保障主管機關公開申選的代理教師而所謂的主管機關公開申選"},{"start":1753.917,"end":1770.5,"text":"全台只有澎湖實際的辦理那造成了絕大多數的代理教師被排除在偏鄉條例之外所以我的修法把各校自辦甄選的代理教師正式的納入條例保障"},{"start":1771.281,"end":1792.017,"text":"並且明文讓表現良好的老師不受次數限制的續聘讓學校可以穩定用人也讓代理老師不必年年被迫離開熟悉的孩子跟社區第二個修法重點是讓在地的人才有制度性的培育路徑"},{"start":1793.278,"end":1812.26,"text":"現在偏鄉學士候學分班的名額供不應求顯示出很多人願意投入偏鄉但是問題在於自費就讀的門檻反而比補助生還要更高還把大量實際教書的待課年資被排除在外"},{"start":1812.921,"end":1839.82,"text":"那想要自費就讀偏鄉學士後學分班在偏鄉要服務滿十學期但是偏鄉條例全額補助的對象只要實際服務滿三年四學期所以我的主張是不論補助或自費只要在偏鄉實際服務滿三年四個學期就應該同樣能夠就讀學分班同時待課老師目前不能進修"},{"start":1841.434,"end":1861.915,"text":"偏鄉學士學分班但是只要符合一定的授課量例如每週十四節的待課老師只要訂出一個合理採記的樓地板鼓勵他們去進修才能夠符合偏鄉的現況達到拉高合格教師比例的目標"},{"start":1862.896,"end":1883.932,"text":"那我第三個修法重點是偏鄉孩子的學習空間跟建築安全也就是第12條偏鄉有很多的村裡部落它的地形交通限制等等需要設立分班那教學場所呢現行條文雖然允許使用既有合法建築物"},{"start":1884.472,"end":1904.846,"text":"但是在原住民族地區我們很多的建物因為限時條件要取得完整的合法證明文件有困難結果就是讓孩子被迫的長距離通學要不然就是教學空間卡關那麼最後受影響的是孩子的受教權因此"},{"start":1906.347,"end":1927.801,"text":"這一次修法希望在不犧牲安全的前提下參考長照機構管理規範新增更符合偏鄉縣市的替代機制也就是合法建物資證明文件得以結構安全鑑定及簡易消防配置圖替代並且每年報主管機關備查"},{"start":1929.202,"end":1957.324,"text":"也就是說放寬的是文件形式強化的是安全把關讓孩子能夠有安全的教室也讓地方有執行的路徑那最後就是偏鄉九任獎金的公平問題目前九任獎金的發放只限老師但是同樣在校園內的教練護理師 社工 行政人力等等他們同樣是偏鄉學校"},{"start":1957.824,"end":1981.137,"text":"不可或缺的人員所以我們主張一併的納入九任獎勵的對象讓他能夠不論公保 勞保有一個法源依據最後針對我一再呼籲的在地人才 在地培育教育部應該要考慮跟地方大學合作設立偏鄉師資的培育專班"},{"start":1982.297,"end":2008.147,"text":"優先錄取在地的青年搭配在地的實習在地的留任就業保障讓偏鄉長出自己的老師這一次的修法就是希望讓偏鄉教育回到偏鄉的真實樣貌在地人才可以被培育孩子有安全的教室投入的人能夠被留下來被尊重敬請大家支持 謝謝"},{"start":2013.732,"end":2041.076,"text":"好 謝謝武力華委員的提案說明那現場的委員人數已達三人那請問現場的委員對於議事錄有沒有意見 有沒有意義沒有 那好 那我們達到議決人數三人那也沒有意義 那就議事錄就確定了好 那現在想要請武力華委員 是不是可以麻煩你一下下就是我要做提案說明"},{"start":2042.612,"end":2068.396,"text":"好 那這樣子就請他嗎請議員 知委員你現在代理主席一下我要做我們本黨的提案說明就暫時在位置上面 謝謝現在請民眾黨黨團做提案說明"},{"start":2081.767,"end":2104.317,"text":"好 謝謝主席那本院的民眾黨呢就建議為了協助穩定偏遠地區學校的師資呢以實現教育平等的原則呢確保偏遠地區的學校教育的均衡發展以因應偏遠地區學校的特殊性跟需求改善他的師資跟學習的條件"},{"start":2105.057,"end":2129.031,"text":"提升偏遠地區學校學生的學習品質並且要平衡城鄉的教育原理據的偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第7條跟第8條條文的修正草案以放寬專聘教師的資格並補助由偏遠地區學校自辦徵選的方式來禁用現代"},{"start":2131.493,"end":2150.993,"text":"現職的代理教師以提升偏遠地區專業合格師資的素質強化偏遠地區師資久任的誘因這才能夠真正的解決現在師資流動率太高的問題並且吸引有意願及熱忱服務偏遠地區的師資"},{"start":2152.114,"end":2171.646,"text":"希望說今天的這個討論的是一個開始那後續還會有相關的主條的審查的時候呢大家對於目前已經實施了八年之久的偏遠地區學校教育的發展條例能夠有一個更完整的一個修訂好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":2185.29,"end":2188.325,"text":"接著請教育部張料政次進行報告報告時間10分鐘"},{"start":2195.697,"end":2221.249,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家好感謝委員會安排今日的會議那麼就偏遠地區學校教育發展條例 部分條文修正草案進行詢答本人硬要列席 得以聆聽各位委員寶貴的意見 自感榮幸那麼以下呢 就緊就本部對各項修正草案之整體回應提出口頭說明 敬請各位委員來指教"},{"start":2221.969,"end":2239.341,"text":"那麼首先就條例目前實施的情形來做個概括性的說明那麼第一偏遠地區學校教育發展條例在106年12月公布之後呢期望全面協助偏遠地區學校因為交通不便生活機能不足"},{"start":2240.001,"end":2255.141,"text":"社会条件不利以及失智不稳定等结构性的因素影响学生受教权的问题来落实教育军等的政策目标本部依据本条例授权也完成了八部的执法"},{"start":2255.862,"end":2274.046,"text":"那麼第二點有關偏遠地區學校的分級認定那麼本部是每三年定期檢討那麼從108年起認定的指標也由9項調整為16項以提升制度完整性跟客觀性那麼經過統計107到109學年度我們核定的偏遠地區學校一共有1177校那麼110年到112年"},{"start":2283.717,"end":2305.585,"text":"合定的校數是1206校那麼113年到115學年度合定的校數是1191校從這裡數據看來整體的校數維持是相對的穩定另外本部在108年也訂定了偏遠地區學校及非三非四學校經費的作業要點"},{"start":2306.405,"end":2329.202,"text":"每年約編列了新台幣40億元的預算那麼重點方面在三個方面那第一個方面是在師資與人力方面透過補助合理教師員額引導降低教師員額的控留比例那麼結合公費生的制度合併及巡迴教師的機制來推動久任獎金及相關留任的措施來穩定師資結構"},{"start":2331.528,"end":2359.954,"text":"第二方面 在設施設備方面我們提供每校3年200萬的設施設備的經費並持續來補助偏遠地區學校數位資訊 藝文及體育設施也推動了中央廚房 宿舍的改善廁所的整修以及離島教育建設等計畫那麼逐步來改善校園基礎的條件第三個方面 在學生學習跟教師專業發展方面也提供每校每年25萬"},{"start":2361.826,"end":2379.897,"text":"学生多元试探的活动经费那么每校每年25万的教师专业发展经费并且透过学习辅助课后照顾夜光天使美感教育及教学访问教师等措施来支持学生多元学习以及教师专业成长"},{"start":2381.136,"end":2406.799,"text":"第四個說明是我們為了收集各界的建議及廣正意見本部在111年到114年間共召開了23次偏遠地區教育相關的會議廣泛邀集不同型態的學校來參與並同時賦予不同屬性學校來進行對話收集的意見都作為後續政策調整與行政經濟的重要參考"},{"start":2407.984,"end":2425.412,"text":"那麼第二個部分我們來對本部對委員所提的修正草案來做一個回應跟說明非常感謝各位委員的關心那麼本部依據修正草案的主題包括第四條部分有關偏遠地區學校的認定級分級"},{"start":2426.212,"end":2439.099,"text":"那麼考量認定的結果涉及相關權益措施相關的標準仍需具有一致性及可驗的官方統計資料為基礎那麼本部會持續收集各界的意見來精進相關運作的機制"},{"start":2441.48,"end":2461.411,"text":"第二個部分是有關第五條 第七條 第八條 第十一條 第二十一條有關偏遠地區私資禁用 留任與人力彈性方面那麼其中有委員提到要有遇孫留職停薪的年限是在第五條第三項那麼其實在現行既有制度架構下呢已經有相關的規範"},{"start":2463.07,"end":2483.46,"text":"第2個是在第7條第8條的部分有關專聘教師及學校自聘合格代理教師的禁用方式再聘機制進修認證及轉任專任教師現行條例及相關聘任辦法以兼顧師資品質及偏遠地區用人彈性較為符合行政減量之政策方向與實務運作"},{"start":2485.475,"end":2510.304,"text":"那麼第三方面有關第十一條第四項有委員的版本提到要增置教師援援的部分我們現行已經將合理的援援機制納入法制的規範而且地方主管機關可以另訂優於該準則的援援編制規定現行制度已經具備有彈性調整的空間那第四方面有關第21條九任獎金的支領對象"},{"start":2512.319,"end":2527.762,"text":"這部分我們希望能夠繼續收集地方政府各機關以及各界的意見來審慎研議現行的制度為代理教師是否具備教師證書作為唯一的判準所以目前還可以顧及到制度的彈性"},{"start":2528.854,"end":2552.059,"text":"那麼第三方面呢有關第10條第11條第13條第14條第15條第16條呢有關區域教育資源中心角色的定位跟功能的強化那麼現行的部分地方政府的區域教育資源中心已辦有這個整合行政人力教學等相關事項本部也透過相關的補助計畫引導地方政府"},{"start":2552.879,"end":2573.195,"text":"那么又从专业辅导人员及社会工作人员的现行也是以国中学区为设置范围这样就有助于学校实际上的一个需求第4点说明是有关第12条第12条之一就是有关学校要设立裁并与学生的就学权益方面"},{"start":2574.015,"end":2593.086,"text":"現行的國民教育法已經就學校裁並定有相關程序參與的機制另外本條例也定有設立分校分班及教學場所的彈性機制那麼委員所提的版本建議涉及地方政府的權限本部委會持續收集地方政府及各界的意見來審慎研議"},{"start":2595.367,"end":2610.719,"text":"第五我們有關這個第16條18條19條關於學生學習支持宿舍補助與設置全國偏遠地區教育會議這部分呢本部已經有相關的補助措施"},{"start":2611.56,"end":2626.556,"text":"並以地方政府的財力及次採不同的比例來補助也符合中央跟地方共同分擔教育責任的原則那麼至於教職員宿舍的部分現行的條文已經保留有補助的彈性那麼"},{"start":2627.717,"end":2650.573,"text":"另外呢現行以區分區會議的方式廣泛收集各界的意見並與不同屬性的學校來進行對話那麼現行互動的頻率較高也能夠充分廣納多元的意見那麼最後呢我們要再次感謝提出修正草案的各位委員都非常關心偏鄉教育那麼本條例自"},{"start":2652.075,"end":2666.295,"text":"106年實施後本部持續廣泛收集各界的意見並配合調整相關的行政措施行政配套措施提供彈性的運作機制那麼有關委員所提的建議據部分"},{"start":2667.509,"end":2683.088,"text":"意見涉及到地方政府及其他機關的權責建議人持續人因持續收集地方政府及各界的意見來審慎研議來使本條例的推動與實施更真完備那麼以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2688.547,"end":2706.113,"text":"好 謝謝安廖次長的報告那其他相關機關的書面意見就請各位委員就一併參考那現在進行詢答每位出席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘"},{"start":2708.914,"end":2736.434,"text":"发言登记截止时间为10点30分委员如果有临时提案请于上午10时30分前提出并于本会委员吴佩义质询结束后即进行处理处理提案时若提案委员及联署委员均不在场原例就不予处理那现在呢请发言登记第一位的叶元之委员进行质询"},{"start":2746.23,"end":2746.794,"text":"麻煩請次長謝謝有請商調市長"},{"start":2752.569,"end":2780.489,"text":"委員好次長好就是教育部之前有宣布就是終於有看到老師的需求然後有提供有提高一點導師費謝謝委員的建議然後還有行政加急然後另外就是終點費那但這個當然我們是支持的但是當然還是覺得不夠然後還有衍生出幾個面向跟你討論一下第一個是終點費的部分因為現在增加的是兼任待課教師的終點費"},{"start":2781.687,"end":2796.935,"text":"那對於那些正式老師他沒有做行政職也沒有做導師的實際上是有增加他的成本因為他如果請假要找代課老師的話他付的那個代課費用也會比較高這個次長你當初有想到這個狀況嗎"},{"start":2798.208,"end":2815.607,"text":"我想这一部分这应该不是你的本意也不会是希望说增加兼课代课教师的重点费却让正式老师在请假的时候必须付比较高的成本因为可能跟大家想不一样大家不知道说这个钱其实是老师出不是教育不是学校出是老师出所以确实就是老师是有增加成本"},{"start":2816.948,"end":2837.521,"text":"這是其中一個面向譬如說它如果是工價或者之類的我知道它如果是病假或者是試假它給待課費當然就提高它待課費就要提高那我覺得這不是教育部的本意上一次我在10月中的時候當時是部長來其實我有提供一個建議就是讓"},{"start":2838.602,"end":2849.431,"text":"所有的學校的老師可以減兩個小時的終點因為國小是20個小時一個禮拜國中是18 高中是16當時是可以建議說如果減兩個終點這其實有個好處第一個"},{"start":2853.775,"end":2881.377,"text":"因為現在老師108課綱的關係所以他又要讓學生自主學習又多元教學其實增加很多時間成本譬如說他要準備很多教材還要影印這些成本其實教育部都看不到所以你如果減兩個小時可以讓他更多備課的時間然後可以對每個學生有更多時間可以去照顧這是減時間的部分如果假設他"},{"start":2882.618,"end":2900.758,"text":"要去代課的話幫人家代課現在剛好教育部你的那個終點費提高了嘛所以他代課的話他等於他加班費也變多嘛所以其實我一直覺得說這個減兩個小時的政策是可以推動可是後來教育部因為我是10月提的教育部後來回我一個報告說不可行啦"},{"start":2901.238,"end":2915.179,"text":"但不可行的理由我是不太能接受第一個理由是說因為現在的基本教學的結束配置穩定如果再調降的話就會沒有辦法足夠校內師資授課不是啦 這個就是你要增加員額的問題嘛"},{"start":2916.941,"end":2939.65,"text":"這就是增加緣額增加緣額這個點在你們給我的報告的第四點的相關配套裡面就有講說你們會透過能力補足的方式來解決所以代表說你回覆我減兩個小時終點不可行的這個理由你就自打臉了這是第一件事情第二個是講第二個說不可行的理由是說"},{"start":2941.823,"end":2963.317,"text":"如果說教師要增加每週超時授課結束的話會沒有辦法有效減輕教師工作負擔那我覺得這個就是老師自己的選擇就是說我們先讓他們每一個人減兩小時那如果有的老師他願意去幫人家帶課然後可以領那個超經貼的超時經貼這就是他的選擇"},{"start":2965.114,"end":2989.408,"text":"因此減兩個小時實際上我覺得可以達到第一個減輕老師負擔第二個如果老師要去幫人家帶課的話那配合教育部你現在提高終點這樣的一個措施他的加分費有提高啊所以這是一個可行的政策啦我希望教育部你們再去研議一下不要每一次好像我們提供意見因為有的時候我們的意見也是有中很多老師的"},{"start":2990.56,"end":3007.289,"text":"的想法像你們可能不知道老師其實現在工作真的是很繁重有時候要改作業 改作文 改週記然後改成績 改作業改作文到半夜還有很多行政作業要寫表單 要寫評鑑工作真的是很多"},{"start":3008.71,"end":3036.377,"text":"這個部分是不是你在我想委員的關心的方向其實跟之前也有教師團體提出說要降低班級人數也是一個方法我講的不是降低班級人數減瘦時數當然也是一種這個都涉及到整個大家關心整個教師的教學負擔各方面的負擔這個要全盤的來考慮譬如說你現在降低時數會增加費用支出"},{"start":3036.897,"end":3063.862,"text":"那過去這個這個費用支出上一次我有跟部長講我幫他也算過了大概就是增加20億左右那你知道你知道那個在前幾個月你們有送來一個任性報告光高教的特別預算就變200億你覺得高教很危險所以要提高任性變了200億那現在國教的問題就是老師的問題嘛缺老師嘛所以你要改善那個老師教學環境嘛"},{"start":3064.758,"end":3092.933,"text":"才20億而已十分之一而已你就覺得很多了你就覺得捨不得了但是高校200億你就覺得沒有什麼現在高中以下其實很大的一部分除了國立學校以外是屬於地方的學校所以它增加了費用我跟你講市長我跟你講因為今天我沒有要跟你吵那個中央地方我覺得因為教育部是主要的政策制定者就像之前說要提高導師費還有就是行政加急也是由教育部來宣布"},{"start":3093.513,"end":3109.573,"text":"我們這個有找地方但是你們就是要去找地方所以我現在跟你提出嘛那你們去找地方嘛對 財源部分看怎麼分配但是這個事情我覺得該做所以希望你們先確定政策方向然後再去討論說這財源怎麼分配啦好不好 這個你們再研議一下"},{"start":3110.314,"end":3136.01,"text":"當然都是各種建議嘛我們都會你不能每一個人給你很多建議不同建議但是你就說要通盤考量通盤考量結果一件事都沒做嘛不會啦對不對不會一件事那我現在就真的我的建議你們再給我一個再重新再評估一下然後第二個就是行政加息你們現在是有給工作行政工作獎金是一千到兩千嘛請問一下你們預計會增加多少預算這個 來署長來說明一下好不好這一個"},{"start":3140.898,"end":3167.659,"text":"如果是就全年來講是增加5億多增加5億多7千6百萬左右全年增加5億多對 5億多好 那我跟你講好不好你現在加1千到2千實際上還是不夠啦還是不夠因為你現在導資費增加但行政加給只加1千到2千會讓很多學校更找不到行政人員會更找不到行政人員這個我不知道你有沒有跟一些校長主任聊過"},{"start":3170.005,"end":3184.885,"text":"所以我是建議你先生家籍應該要加到五千左右那你剛剛講說一千到兩千大概是增加五億嘛所以如果你加到五千的話大概是乘以二點五就是差不多十二億"},{"start":3186.958,"end":3201.109,"text":"12.5億嘛其實你應該要再多編12.5億讓那個導師費讓行政加給可以更高啦這個你也去評估一下我現在講的相較於高教都是小錢啦因為高教特別預算就200億啊國教你看我剛剛講20億加上這個12.5億才32.5億啊"},{"start":3204.662,"end":3231.837,"text":"我們會持續評估 真的這個是一個嚴重的問題建議你們去跟學校的那個校長主任聊一下這個措施你們之前的措施會不會造成更找不到行政人員還有第三個因為今天講的是偏鄉學校那個偏鄉學校現在有一個措施是讓沒有教師證的代理老師可以在如果他有五年的年資的話可以讓他去修教育學程學分班對吧"},{"start":3233.839,"end":3247.938,"text":"其實我覺得一般的非偏鄉學校比如說市區學校的代理教師也一樣有這樣的需求因為我有聽過非常多代理教師他是市區的他可能已經代理接近十年了有的八年 有的九年他對教育很有熱忱"},{"start":3249.139,"end":3268.457,"text":"但是每次都提心吊膽因為沒有教師證的代理老師要等到學校三招以後才有機會進到學校你第一招 第二招都是要有教師證招不到第三招才是可以招無教師證但現在有很多沒有教師證的代理老師所以"},{"start":3271.397,"end":3287.16,"text":"有沒有那麼可能就比照偏鄉學校讓這些沒有教師證市區的代理老師他有累積一定年資也可以讓他去修這個教育學程的學分班因為現行的制度對他們來說我覺得是"},{"start":3288.53,"end":3309.785,"text":"比較困難的點在於說第一個他們可能有經濟的壓力你要他把不要去當代理老師回到學校去修碩士博士再兼教育學程這個機會成本很高第二個如果是在職專班的話其實學費他也許根本不想要讀碩士博士對不對但是他為了要修教育學程所以付這個學費去修這個學位"},{"start":3311.886,"end":3332.197,"text":"所以能不能就是像偏鄉一樣就是提供讓他們你找一些我相信有些大學願意開這樣的課程在寒暑假然後一些教育學程的學分讓他們去修那你也可以訂一個年資對不對比如說幾年嘛四年五年那為什麼要訂這個年資呢因為這個代表說他真的很熱愛這個教學環境"},{"start":3333.82,"end":3348.859,"text":"然後第二個是現在學校很多學校就是缺老師啊如果沒有缺老師不會開到三招四招五招嘛對吧所以其實我覺得對現行的制度也不會做什麼排擠啦這個我不知道次長能不能"},{"start":3349.816,"end":3376.432,"text":"這個方向其實我以為你說的就是我們偏鄉會這樣開是因為它增加誘因在偏鄉服務那假如說我們把這個誘因又放到一般的地區裡面去讓這些代理老師有這個管道的話那整個失陪制度的這種設計可能也會有一些衝擊沒有 因為我剛剛講的那些代理老師我們還跟施治師討論過沒有 我剛剛講的那些代理老師他就是市區的你就算你不讓他有這個機會修那個學問班他也不會到偏鄉啊"},{"start":3377.192,"end":3399.839,"text":"更何況現在雙北很多市區的學校也都缺代理老師啊我們上次也看到台北市台北市總不能說偏鄉了吧台北市的代理老師都到四十幾招了所以市區的問題現在也要解決啊但是多數的這個代理教師其實是有教師證的啦那多數嗎可是如果多數的都有教師證的話那怎麼會很多學校都要三招以上"},{"start":3401.073,"end":3406.818,"text":"當然我們有一些稀缺類科也會開學士候學分班不限於偏遠地區什麼時候開"},{"start":3408.1,"end":3432.305,"text":"目前就有開學士和學分班對於比較稀缺的類科那因為我們師資培育是多元機制我們還有值錢的師資培育那還有特定稀缺類科的學士和學分班那委員的建議我們那目前偏鄉的學分班以目前小教的目前報名還有將近1000人需要去開設那委員的這個意見我們必須整體就多找一些大學嘛對啊"},{"start":3432.685,"end":3460.087,"text":"我相信大學會願意開啦那值錢的培育量我們也必須考那委員我們會滾動來做思考好 謝謝那最後一個問題你們有提到說那個幼教幼教的那個教保費也會提高嘛從2000到3000你們什麼時候會實施這個已經在研議他要修要點他一樣會追溯到這個學年9月1號追溯到這個學年就對了那大概什麼時候要點會修在1月會修完1月會修完 謝謝"},{"start":3464.482,"end":3470.005,"text":"好謝謝葉元芝委員那官員請回座現在請柯志恩委員質詢謝謝趙柔我們請次長有請次長委員好"},{"start":3485.188,"end":3497.582,"text":"我剛剛聽到原治委員在質詢這個大學會開獅子培育班我是畫上個問號啦因為大部分的獅子培育班都已經快要滅頂了因為都沒有人要來修了這才是一個殘酷的現實對吧好"},{"start":3500.365,"end":3525.985,"text":"我想我们今天讨论的偏乡教育偏乡教育大概是我上任立委2016年到现在包括张亮委员一样我们对于偏乡教育的询答应该是最多的就表示它的整个结构是最弱的所以以至于我们到现在还在讨论偏乡教育不过因为有滚动式的检讨对于我们的教育还是有一些的增进不过在之前我还是要提问一些问题"},{"start":3526.986,"end":3553.916,"text":"像我要特别提到像我们最近我们高雄卫生心理卫生中心的主任前主任因为一些霸凌事件事情没有做好要求部署下跪道歉然后呢他提前退休但是呢这样子霸凌部署的主管竟然在1月5号就是前天的时候他的名字还大大的放在教育部的反霸凌人才专库当中"},{"start":3554.696,"end":3582.901,"text":"直到我提出来之后才下架请问这样子的人才库是地方政府报上来还是谁都可以做修改还是教育部为什么对这件事情反应这么慢我可不可以问一下我想这个名单是地方政府推荐我们依照规定所以这是我们高雄市的问题就是那个程序上是这样处理那我们后来在委员提出之后我们也发现这个确实对这些这个"},{"start":3583.061,"end":3599.073,"text":"那未來怎麼辦這個人才庫放在這邊以後每個人去校園裡面都從人才庫裡面找講師一個80的人還可以當講師這對教育部來說是一個非常的諷刺的一件事情 次長謝謝委員的提出我們已經在了解之後馬上就下架他的這個名字"},{"start":3599.633,"end":3618.852,"text":"以后这个部分里面的人你都应该做一个盘点对 我们会定定要点你们要定定要点要做个盘点不是地方政府送上什么你们都没有做任何既然挂上一个教育部这就是你们的责任跟角色请次长特别注意好 我们会进一步来解释还有刚刚我们特别提到了我们在这个12月31号你们对于老师的职业"},{"start":3619.232,"end":3639.303,"text":"这个职务加急导师加急坚韧的在代理代课的终点费跟增加行政公众奖金三项都有给予一些的薪资补贴我给予肯定但是但是我最重视的2024年11月所通过的这个学生辅导法我们有个附带决议希望能够给专府人员调薪到目前为止"},{"start":3641.484,"end":3669.095,"text":"然后你们给我的理由就是因为考虑类似这个职务人员的这个薪资的横评性拜托次长署长这个薪资的横评性已经讲了很多的而且社工那个协会里面也特别提到的这不不会做这样的一个影响为什么你们没有办法说服行政院给予这样子流动度很高的心理智商是跟社工是更好的一个待遇呢这问题在哪里我就觉得我们在审法在审个心酸的"},{"start":3669.855,"end":3687.936,"text":"每次通過的部分裡面然後你們告訴我沒有錢然後考慮其他的問題然後都不給我們錢那你叫這些人繼續做功德嗎 次長其實那委員的建議我們都聽到了其實也在跟行政院溝通那也開了好幾次會那到底誰哪個部會不同意先到衛福部那邊他們也有相關的能源是衛福部嗎不是 先要統一考量啦"},{"start":3690.478,"end":3710.129,"text":"這個早就是這個問題啦你們就是因為給人家的社工是薪資不夠高我們如果薪資夠高的話人家會抗議人家已經告訴你這不是問題這是一個藉口這是一個藉口所以這個問題都要怎麼解決我們都已經所有的人都在這個委員會裡面大家透過這個附帶決定同意教育部也同意啦那為什麼還是到這樣結果呢"},{"start":3711.109,"end":3733.641,"text":"目前正在加緊協調啦我們就來看看什麼時候好不好我會好好的部分你會讓很多的人我想你的關心跟教育部其實立場是一樣的啦是啊我們也會定期跟委員回報那個拜託我們的教育部我真的覺得遇到行政院都是我們教育部先讓步啦你們真的是真的大家鼓沒有讓步啦我們在溝通中啦因為有涉及到其他部會的一個"},{"start":3734.141,"end":3748.388,"text":"好 我们就看你怎么沟通那还有另外需要沟通的就是我们的校师会议1月12号已经确定会公布吧会公布你没有跟其他的教师团体都有做过充分的讨论吗会不会公布完之后更打击我们所有教师的士气呢"},{"start":3749.128,"end":3778.219,"text":"我想我们是衡量各方面那这一次最主要是要解决教师现场所谓滥诉或者是投诉本来就是而且我告诉你我们在投诉的那个建树上有做过数据的分析还有市长 署长你们都知道最近的新闻都说真的是一个这个校师会议处理不当的话真的是碾碎非常多教师的一个热情然后呢大家真的不知道现在要为谁辛苦为谁忙很多人干脆什么事都不要做我举个最基层的一个例子好的这是我"},{"start":3778.979,"end":3794.026,"text":"到教育圈现场因为目前有很多人跟我们申请举例来说目前为止来说呢因为上传学生活动的照片的公开网页然后被检举这还是包括七年前上传学生的一个照片老师要被约谈然后呢"},{"start":3794.446,"end":3821.834,"text":"各地方政府都會要求以後只要有任何跟學生影像有關的要獲得學生的一個同意這是保護個資無庸置疑但是有些學校這是過度解讀到你在運動會的時候拍學生的照片也要經過學生否則你就要用AI處理這就是很多學校在學校裡面的網站的照片就長成這個樣子嘛這像畫嗎 刺掌"},{"start":3822.815,"end":3824.206,"text":"搞成這個樣子全部都AI"},{"start":3825.959,"end":3853.691,"text":"全国有很多学校都是这样子因为你们要求人家什么地方学校的运动会学校的什么成果展只要有学生的照片老师要的话就不能够除非经过他的允许以后老师都不要帮学生拍照了不然就是变成这样子不然就要教长自己去拍搞成这样子因为学生拍了老师拍的就到校系会议里面被约谈然后呢约谈最后结果不管怎么样光是被约谈这个动作就对老师多么不尊重"},{"start":3854.491,"end":3862.186,"text":"然後地方政府就是這樣子啊你覺得這樣合理嗎 次長當然是我覺得這個是有點過頭啦"},{"start":3863.615,"end":3892.651,"text":"我告诉你啊全国你去看有很多学校的网页就是长成这个样子就是因为如果他不是这个样子的话连七年前连七年前的曾经上传学生照片在这个所谓的社交平台上面都要被检举都要被送到校师会议被询问我觉得这次校师会议里面让老师非常伤心然后很多人真的就会你只要有机会去看看所有下面老师的留言里面你就会发现其实如果"},{"start":3892.771,"end":3922.591,"text":"有非常多的辛酸如果只是传活动照片在学校网页说要进校师会这个我是不了解有这个状况不过我想在我们修法之后应该不会有这个问题来 我们修法之后不会有这个问题你要讨论这些问题我都可以告诉你这些的公文跟这些老师的辛酸是我们回到我们这个部分来完全是失去他的尊严所以我对于你1月12号所公布的所谓的校师会的改革我想非常多人都会非常的关切我希望还是能够回应给我们这个老师一个基本的尊严"},{"start":3923.872,"end":3942.245,"text":"然后我们来看看这个偏乡教育流动率高大概4.5年而且我不要说台北是什么三招四招我们偏远地区都已经到20招了还是没有人然后你看看我们代理教室的比例是非常的高所以我就特别提到这个讨论很多但是结构非常的不稳我们再往下看"},{"start":3943.286,"end":3954.885,"text":"然後我也知道彭署長也很努力要跟大家來做溝通2023年你講過這句話請問署長有關於這些我們所認的專聘教師目前你溝通的狀況是如何"},{"start":3955.879,"end":3977.99,"text":"跟委員報告一下第一點專聘老師他是代理老師那後來大家覺得用正式老師最能夠解決問題也最穩定因此這四年來我們禁用了兩萬名的正式老師所以在溝通之後有這樣的一個成效至於專聘老師他其中一個好處是能夠有公費進修的這一類的保障其實他畢竟還是代理老師"},{"start":3978.45,"end":3995.892,"text":"所以用政治老师来决定的戴笠老师他们中间只称了一个绩效奖金我告诉你这个说实在的诱因还是不足你光是看到这个部分嘉义的部分呢我们来看看这个数据嘛对不对它是两年的一个契约嘛嘉义的时候呢我们人报道嘛"},{"start":3996.192,"end":4019.174,"text":"隔年陆续离职新北仅剩下一个人来报到其他没有其他的学校来学校限时来跟进所以呢这个教师证的这个层面我们还是要慎重来考虑你虽然告诉我们说很多人都是变成正式老师的没有我告诉你专聘教师的这个制度来说的话目前他的诱因你必须从这个数字来看其实没有那么足的"},{"start":4020.235,"end":4046.767,"text":"别那么足的那当然还有包括我们往下看还有很多的问题为什么一定要坚持六年我们有没有机会稍微做一些弹性的比如说两年三年在偏乡休息之后到别的偏乡四年或三年还是可以取得戒病因为在一个学校永远留到一个六年其实很多人并不是没有热情而是来自于他的家庭因素健康因素等等的一些的因素这就都有可能反而"},{"start":4047.307,"end":4076.907,"text":"包含在内我只是认为偏乡教育的部分弹性度一定要够大每个人都是不太一样而且你们虽然给大家有九任奖金还真的叫九等奖金真的是等来等就要等很久而且因为周围已经站上来了我还是一路漏完气你们才来部分很多时候要同校服务八年否则归零这些都是没有弹性的还有往后面很重要的就是你们要落实很多时候这个点我为什么要提出来"},{"start":4077.467,"end":4106.807,"text":"因为呢因为台风天的关系很多时候你们对于一百零几年我看一下啊一百零八年以前的这个老师没有保障一百零九年学年度之后到职者你们对于他们的一些额外伤害还有包括一些等等的法规的福利都有但是呢资深的却没有照顾在内这些都是在法规年限限定问题上面你们应该去做一个检讨的嘛这有点在惩罚资深老师"},{"start":4107.627,"end":4130.949,"text":"我想這個部分我們會來我們聽到了我們一直在詢問那也會來做改善那剛才委員去提到的我們其實從106年底這個偏鄉條例上路之後其實那個老師的流動率透過正式編制的大量釋出事實上他的流動率是降低的非常明顯107年的時候國小的偏鄉這些偏鄉老師的流動率是2.1%現在是"},{"start":4134.533,"end":4148.453,"text":"1.21%降的相當多那國中的部分是從1.9%107年到113年是1.36所以它其實是我覺得這個數據跟我所認知起碼是在我第一線教書的學生的層面的流動率上"},{"start":4149.014,"end":4178.463,"text":"事实跟数据上是有一点我的认知上是有一点的差距的我需要对这个数据上面来做更深入的了解你要来提供但是的值的层面上面我刚刚特别提到了在风雨当中人家108年之前的老师通常都没有像你们得到这么多的一个福利这之后这个部分里面我就要全面否则同样一条路好不好归向失路没有道理说你有这个年限的差别就差别好不好谢谢 谢谢委员"},{"start":4178.863,"end":4206.255,"text":"我肯定你們對於一些事情的處理因為我們在2016年就在這邊就開始討論偏鄉教育如果說你在這幾年當中沒有改進數字沒有降低那我們都不知道在幹什麼但是這改進的幅度還有對於優秀老師的留任對於讓我們偏鄉的孩子不要因為老師不斷的換然後讓他們覺得沒有辦法有所依附我們共同責任可是我還是要強調目前的措施跟目前的獎勵制度非常大的改進制度"},{"start":4206.935,"end":4231.355,"text":"還有最後好最後我們就看看1月12號的校事會議因為這是決定老師士氣有沒有辦法被再次提振的最重要的關鍵好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝柯執政委員官員請回座那麻煩柯執政委員好我們現在請劉淑冰委員"},{"start":4238.049,"end":4240.171,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請次長好 次長教委好"},{"start":4247.574,"end":4271.94,"text":"次長好我們知道106年的時候偏鄉條例偏校條例的就已經上路了那現在已經到8年的時間了那這部分我們看到他的確有很多的實行上的困難當然我也知道說剛才次長他說的是沒有錯在我們看到現在這個資料顯示出來他的這個國小國中這部分的尤其是國小的地方他的這個"},{"start":4275.302,"end":4288.41,"text":"流動率是有在下降但是事實上不管如何都可以看到是這個偏校的流動率都是比一般的學校地區要高那特別是到有些你看到100以國中來講的話是到110到122年他甚至達到兩倍的情況"},{"start":4294.173,"end":4314.899,"text":"那這個部分就會考慮到是說有做但是效果還是尤其在國中部分是非常的嚴重的那這邊就是要請教的是次長就在說這個問題怎麼樣的去處理就是說我們現在看到的是你有9任獎金那每年我看到的是教育部提供了40億的預算"},{"start":4316.88,"end":4337.971,"text":"那流動率這麼高的原因我們看到求任獎金他現在要求是偏鄉的老師服務要滿8年才給第一次的這樣的獎金但是剛才也聽到的事實上我們也看到的是目前在偏鄉地區的老師大概留任的情況是4到5年除非是公費的不然的話根本就拿到不到這個獎金那包括第二次的"},{"start":4338.911,"end":4352.182,"text":"第二次的獎金到服務老們11年你們在算定那個有任獎金的這樣的一個機制是怎麼樣去算出來的是不是要重新去計算不然沒辦法達到這個效果"},{"start":4353.052,"end":4378.908,"text":"我想是有達到效果一定的效果當然委員都希望說能夠更加會的層面能夠更廣但細節的考慮我們是不是請署長來做一個回答好 請署長剛剛還提到考慮8年 11年這一類的數字第一個剛剛委員也有平均到譬如說離島建設條例是6年剛剛一般而言平均會到4至6年有些平均5年"},{"start":4379.989,"end":4404.315,"text":"那這個如果按照一般的平均那就是沒有辦法視為9任是所以第一點8年的決定有一點是按照委員會的討論之後8年算是適當那應該是修改囉但是如果未來在檢視的過程中隨著時代的變遷各種地方包含一般跟偏鄉它的這個誘因拉力已經變化這些我們都可以再檢討"},{"start":4405.935,"end":4423.893,"text":"那你們是三年之內檢討嗎我們的三年會檢討一次但是每年都在召開分區的會議那有各種那像委員在立法院我們這邊提的我們當然會列入考慮就希望說這邊的年次的這個結果就是每年都能夠提供到教育委員會來是可以嗎可以"},{"start":4424.213,"end":4452.511,"text":"好 謝謝那我們繼續再往下看呢就出現到的是另外呢就是說有很多的這樣的一些獎勵啦有看到到說包括有這個變成吧鼓勵變成是正式教師嘛對不對就是源而這樣下去但是我們看到的是教師的這個專業的部分因為現在很多的教師呢他是並不是就是正式的這個教師那他留下來是他反而是有願景想要留下來但是他沒有這樣的師資沒有這樣的合格的教師證"},{"start":4453.371,"end":4470.053,"text":"或是說它尤其在偏鄉地區那這部分我們看到是說這些施培的進修的課程都集中在六都舟車勞頓才修得到那當然我也希望說問到是說它是不是有線上的課程它目前的修課狀況還有偏鄉的實體分布如果還在六都的話他們在屏東怎麼可能到"},{"start":4471.114,"end":4492.245,"text":"到台高雄或者是說你到花蓮你要到哪裡去上課這部分是不是有一個這樣的一個實際上面的數據跟我們來說明一下謝謝委員的關心其實您提到這個在我們偏鄉條例上路之後其實很多地方也都在反映所以我們現在其實類似的那個師培大學其實已經開設到你剛才提到屏東的這個屏東大學也有"},{"start":4494.986,"end":4518.366,"text":"那像东区的在台湾东部的东华大学也有那像这个南台科大也有就是我们现在其实连云林都有开可是如果在原住民区区怎么办当然那个地方那没办法事实上那线上课程呢我们现在其实有线上远距而且那个远距的那个比例也慢慢在放宽到二分之一的结束是可以用远距来上课是承认的对"},{"start":4518.746,"end":4536.316,"text":"所以這個比例是不是可以對 我們其實一直在做彈性的調整也跟我們開課的這些大學一起去研商當然有考慮到整個進修的這個品質那目前為止已經就是剛才跟委員報告的已經到了50%他可以在線上來修習這個學分"},{"start":4539.638,"end":4563.692,"text":"如果教育部有做的話我們必須要看到相關的資料因為這樣才可以知道說我們會有可以提供給委員好 謝謝另外的部分就在於說偏鄉的條件不好的部分在於說生活條件尤其是在交通的補助這部分我們有看到是說每年給了實際上的補助一年應該是有到三億"},{"start":4565.878,"end":4570.815,"text":"每個學校大概有40大概有 我看一下"},{"start":4572.438,"end":4600.061,"text":"每個學校的話是三 設備的話是三年兩百萬那如果交通補助的部分呢是是有交通可進性的部分呢應該是有幾 應該有二十萬 二十五萬二十五萬那這部分的時候就是在交通補助的因為是屬於生活條件的部分那包括交通補助這邊有沒有實際上面是對你們當初有個規劃是如果公車可以到一公里的地方的話你們就不予補助到他的這個交通費嘛"},{"start":4600.541,"end":4629.015,"text":"那这部分是不是有在因为他公车到了但是他并不是全时的24小时都有那怎么样的去应呼应到他真正让他拿得到这些交通补助跟委员补充两点那老师的类似这种教学交通的福利我们不要用这种公车这种设算太复杂了我们用学期学年用整学期给他不要2000 4000这一类的算法"},{"start":4629.535,"end":4649.393,"text":"比较完善那也比较少行政的复课第二点是我们加盖宿舍整修宿舍让老师不用多花那么多的住宿费用那也可以就近就在学校教学所以两项措施在去年年底都已经发布了那最近如果有一些成效我定期跟赵伟再回报"},{"start":4650.053,"end":4667.9,"text":"因為這個部分我想不是說給教育委員會或是我個人本席而是這個部分應該是要定期的公開在教育部的網站上面說你們對偏鄉的學校的發展照顧這部分包括的是交通的補助然後包括是在宿舍的達成因為我們知道"},{"start":4669.82,"end":4686.385,"text":"前幾天到宜蘭去看的時候就是學校裡面竟然是有宿舍有蓋出來不錯但是裡面的設備並沒有完善這部分就請教育部這邊要去把共定期公告讓一般的民眾或是說教師他們就知道說教育部真的有在做這些事情好 我們會持續來做"},{"start":4687.273,"end":4705.327,"text":"好 那另外的部分我再提到是我們本黨或者是說這個部分也包括了是郭剛才所說相對於就是剛才我說的交通可靜性生活機能跟社會經濟客觀的條件的部分應該你們都有在做可是三年的部分我看到是113年到115年有時候學校有一千多將近一千兩百多學校"},{"start":4706.348,"end":4720.203,"text":"那你們這部分是不是也有定期的說我們本辦看到說你們只有學校數字可是對全部的相關的這個整體的報告公開性 開放性好像不夠這不是不是可以也在網上做公告呢"},{"start":4721.128,"end":4741.854,"text":"我们相关的资料都会在统计没有区分到那么细但是一个整体的数据里面都可以看得出来整体的教育统计年报里面其实有些哪些是属于偏乡学校非三非四那它里面的那个师资源的配置学生人数等等都有都可以能够拿出来讨论"},{"start":4742.654,"end":4762.106,"text":"但是没有一个专门说是偏乡地区我想我建议在特别在针对偏乡地区因为这个部分也是因为教育的为国本的那偏乡地区现在占到我们选个全部学校的数字应该占到三分之一嘛那这个这样的一个高数字的话也呈现到说我们对于学校的在每个地方都没有在做放弃离岛跟偏乡的地区都是很重要的"},{"start":4762.446,"end":4780.207,"text":"那另外呢這另外也要了解一下這個有關於本黨的一個意見就是說版本裡面對偏鄉的學校的這個自辦甄選跟禁用代理教室這邊那教育部這邊還是證據說還是用地方政府你們給我本就是說書面報告當中是常常說在地方政府那對於在"},{"start":4781.108,"end":4807.222,"text":"對於給讓學校自辦甄選這個方式你們覺得是說 事實上你們在做的是在減少學校自己的行政負擔嗎但是如果說一個地方政府應該屏東的從北邊到南邊這麼擴這麼大概有大概100多公里的這樣的一個相近到就非常長的距離這個部分這個是不是也可以考慮到二選一或是怎麼樣的情況是針對這邊在提供你們的答案"},{"start":4807.702,"end":4808.807,"text":"這個是有彈性的 是有彈性的嗎 馮署長"},{"start":4813.888,"end":4842.871,"text":"委員我先跟您報告也澄清一下一百零六年設計專聘老師但是時到現在最近四年縣市都用正式老師會比較安定當地的實質穩定所以這兩年已經禁用了一萬人這四年禁用了兩萬人所以專聘老師這一個制度我們能夠盡量協助但地方政府想到他就直接聘正式因為專聘畢竟是代理"},{"start":4843.191,"end":4860.077,"text":"我知道我現在的問題剛才我也聽到我現在的問題是說如果他自辦甄選就直接就當他有這個名額就誰是議員是他所以第二點是委員如果在剛才的前提確認下還要要求或是希望地方政府你來辦代理老師即便是專聘2加2加2加6"},{"start":4861.997,"end":4886.066,"text":"這個對地方的整體考量我們會尊重他不會去強制他你非辦不可因此下一層次他要怎麼辦那會是地方政府他整體的考慮他會優先想到是正式的正式的好這樣的部分呢我想給了一個非常方向正確的一個處理那我們這邊之後有這樣的相關的在法律上面的一個修訂的時候我們就來在座討論好謝謝李秀川的一個說明謝謝"},{"start":4888.639,"end":4905.439,"text":"好 謝謝次長好 謝謝昭偉接下來我們請伍麗華委員好 謝謝主席有請次長有請次長"},{"start":4910.021,"end":4918.747,"text":"委員好次長好謝謝今天特別安排這個偏鄉條例的一個詢問"},{"start":4940.321,"end":4960.43,"text":"教育部的态度是怎么样我们其实每年都在开分区的会议每年我们也看到委员提供了很多版本事实上在提供版本之后不管是对师资或者对偏乡学校的一些补助或者条件等等我们其实都一直在透过执法行政措施等等来做精进好"},{"start":4960.97,"end":4983.52,"text":"那在修法上像委員提到的像有些場所像司馬庫斯那個建築分區其實那個我們也很認同但是我覺得修法有時候反而是反不及急那我們反而會去希望能夠協調地方政府譬如說他在結構安全上他得到一些證書或者是他的安全性都無虞的空間下我們當然會"},{"start":4984.62,"end":5012.883,"text":"用其他的方式我們會予以協助就是說也把它認定那這部分我想委員的建議我們修法當然是長久的那個制度的設計的考慮就像剛才跟好幾位委員回答事實上我們這幾年來投入大量的資源每年40億不但改善了偏鄉學校的基礎設施對於教師流動率的下降其實也有很顯著的跟一般的地區的教師流動率來比較來講那個偏鄉地區下降的那個幅度是相當大的"},{"start":5013.263,"end":5037.158,"text":"所以這個也是立了偏鄉條例之後給了資源之後在偏鄉裡面產生的一些改進當然還有很多問題我們透過分區會議來蒐集委員的意見我們也會來參註好 謝謝次長不論講修法緩不濟急還是說到底我們當初立這個法我們想要達成的目標有沒有獲得改善"},{"start":5037.978,"end":5057.573,"text":"我們不得而知但是我們確實看到很多的條文是形同虛設像大家最愛舉的這個例子也是現場教師很關切的就是一個只存在條文中的專聘教師這四個字真的很多人不理解"},{"start":5058.314,"end":5082.845,"text":"那我去看了一下文字他文字是提到了最主要的關鍵是由主管機關採公開甄選方式可以禁用代理教師或以契約的專聘教師那麼他的母法裡面也沒有規定說一定要有教師證但是他的聘任辦法有提到有規定要合格教師的資格"},{"start":5083.425,"end":5098.823,"text":"那这个到底重不重要他们也觉得蛮重要为什么因为我们看到专聘教师他除了要有合格教师证现分发偏乡学校他也有晋级制度有考级奖金"},{"start":5099.784,"end":5115.012,"text":"可以公費進修然後任滿六年可以參加專任教師甄選有加分這確實很好很多人呢看到這個他是有誘因的但是就是奇怪啊全台專聘教師的人數就是零"},{"start":5115.732,"end":5142.088,"text":"那這個零大家也都知道出在哪裡就是縣市主管機關他沒有辦公開甄選那你說這些代課老師喜不喜歡公開甄選 喜歡因為他們也不喜歡到處奔波他們也喜歡集中考試所以我不太曉得說剛才次長您說了我們有更好的一個解決的方式不需要修法 緩不濟濟那您認為這一條要怎麼改善"},{"start":5142.711,"end":5168.692,"text":"其实专聘教师在当年我们那时候都也是立法院在设计的时候其实就会有一些不同的看法坦白讲那现在专聘教师为什么这个制度比较没有在使用的原因是因为地方政府大量是那个正式的缺所以说在偏乡学校过去以代理教师为主的这个教师生态里面其实这几年是有一些改善的就是说他因为你用正式缺的保障绝对比"},{"start":5169.412,"end":5187.942,"text":"那个用专聘教师他的这种两年两年两年这样子的一个制度会比较好其实我会提这个问题您看一下偏乡学士后学分班我们看数据来说话像以110年度来看报名的人数"},{"start":5189.042,"end":5207.288,"text":"跟正取的人數其實落差還是有的表示不是說隨便報名就隨便可以考上你甚至看到114年度最近的你可以看國立嘉義大學他開一班他其實被取是206人錄取50人"},{"start":5210.194,"end":5234.776,"text":"所以這個偏鄉學授學分班他是公佈應求的在小教的部分是更為明顯的可是我們來看現行的時候他有所謂的全額補助三年內要至少在偏鄉四學期那麼他就要自費的話在同一個縣市要滿六學期然後待課呢年資還不算要代理教師所以"},{"start":5235.416,"end":5257.548,"text":"很多的老師他其實是很在意的並不是不在意的所以當這樣的時候我們作為一個教育的主管機關市長您還能夠說修法緩不及急嗎我想這個有關那個師資培育的部分委員關心的部分我們是不是請那個市長來回答其實委員關心的我們也有待討論好不好"},{"start":5259.08,"end":5278.486,"text":"謝謝委員的關心也因為各位委員的關心我們在今年度也開設了將近500個名額在小教的部分的確是呈現還有將近900多人我直接講其實偏鄉教師他很在意的就是他已經在夠偏遠的地區服務"},{"start":5279.366,"end":5297.767,"text":"他很在意能不能去进修能不能公费进修市长你应该明白我的意思所以我们现在有比较友善的方式譬如包括线上线上的课程有二分之一以上我就是要提其实我们都很了解线上对于一个老师的学习来讲"},{"start":5298.408,"end":5315.419,"text":"其實他不見得能夠有很好的吸收他還是希望能夠好好的去進修所以我覺得站在偏鄉教育品質的一個立場跟偏鄉教師的一個權益我還是希望說修正一下就是"},{"start":5315.919,"end":5344.025,"text":"不論自費他的就讀資格還是要跟補助生要對齊啊就是例如你說你願意去修在偏鄉三年服務滿四個月四個學期他就可以去或者是說很多的待課老師他其實他的年資如果不採記的話是不符現狀因為偏鄉的待課老師很多都是一個星期超過20節那你至少設一個樓地板面積讓他可以採記那次長"},{"start":5344.505,"end":5359.795,"text":"这个部分您觉得你愿意来去做修正吗当然可以来修正我想我们现在宗教班的部分其实就降了两个学期就是也是因为委员还有一些地方的反应所以我们也根据报名人数入局人数跟需求我们做一些改"},{"start":5360.135,"end":5380.146,"text":"做一些条件的一些好那我还是希望拿到报告因为大家在这边听就是希望能够解决改善那像刚才您提到我一直长期关心的偏乡教育条例第十二条我希望能够参考长照服务机构的一个许可及惯例办法第十六条"},{"start":5380.706,"end":5409.872,"text":"用安全结构我要跟市长讲您说的缓不及急这个我们会不我五年前就进入要帮忙要修法一直没办法我也去县政府我也跟局长他们说要帮忙五年了我今天早上打电话给他们他们说他们今天两度气温两度斯马库斯的孩子你可以看照片不少他们到现在都是黑学校"},{"start":5411.521,"end":5437.294,"text":"都是一个不合法的学校那我觉得一个不合法的学校如果有一天他们真的发生了什么事情我们教育部情何以堪我想委员可能有误解我想还不自己去说我们当然12条修法的这个方向我们是同意的是支持的我是觉得但是就是说现在要解决现场目前的问题我们可以内政部今天好像也有代表过来对"},{"start":5438.715,"end":5458.474,"text":"也许有一些条文大家有意见但是有一些没有意见的条文形同句文的我其实都觉得可以修那最后我就是要提到天香九刃奖金因为代理教师有了专辅老师有了社工也有了但是学校里头的教练啊护理师啊"},{"start":5459.505,"end":5476.438,"text":"真的情何以堪我真的是希望說如果我們能夠有一個法源的一個依據在偏鄉教育條約裡面我相信大家都很願意一同的來為這些偏鄉努力久任的這些教職教育人員"},{"start":5477.399,"end":5498.723,"text":"不是教職還包括教育人員其實護理是公有大家都是學校的教育人員希望能夠一同的讓他們在那個地方好好的服務但是我最近接到很多陳情因為年底有一些縣市發公文他說滿8年的計算是到114年12月7號問題是很多校長的調動是7月31號到期8月1號要調到其他的學校已經飛偏了"},{"start":5506.204,"end":5527.361,"text":"又或者是老師呢他65歲退休了就差那麼幾天幾個月就沒有辦法領到9任獎金當然我不贊成因為這個制度的設計是為了要9任像那種調動的你說要去追溯他的比例我不贊同因為我們就是希望他滿8年嘛但是像這種特殊狀況不可抗力的"},{"start":5530.063,"end":5545.338,"text":"那導致他無法差幾天差幾個月他沒有辦法領到9任獎金我不曉得次長您的看法如何能不能夠去按年資領取部分比例的9任獎金這個可以來研究我們來研究好 謝謝特殊的個案我們來研究"},{"start":5547.64,"end":5562.277,"text":"那最後一個就是偏鄉教育條例的第19條有提到要編列預算辦理偏遠地區學校教育狀況調查研究然後每三年要辦理全國偏遠地區的教育會議那我就直接講"},{"start":5563.578,"end":5590.688,"text":"因為我要質詢我要調資料我調不到關於偏鄉的代理教室的數據這個應該就是沒有依照第19條去做這樣的調查所以我覺得這個部分如果我們連偏鄉學校的無證代理的比例人數都沒有辦法掌握我不曉得說我們偏鄉教育條例要怎麼樣去檢討做出符合我們要的教育政策"},{"start":5591.368,"end":5609.513,"text":"所以在這裡我還是希望說能夠每兩年定期辦理偏遠地區教育的狀況調查然後資料有學歷表現學習資源師資流動學生流動文化融入社區參與等等指標然後建立一個偏鄉教育的公開"},{"start":5610.973,"end":5627.698,"text":"以表版或推動偏鄉資料的開放研究計畫或者發展偏鄉教育的指標系統那我這個部分是我的訴求那我知道質詢時間已經不夠了那我希望這個就次長您簡單回答該不該做好"},{"start":5628.058,"end":5647.898,"text":"其實在偏鄉交易會議裡面我們不管是分區或者三年一度的會議裡面那個資料都會在開會裡面來呈現那有些沒有公開的這個沒有在儀表板裡面特別去標註偏鄉一方面也是擔心說這個會有一些標籤的問題就是說我們希望但是至少我要質詢我就要不到資料"},{"start":5648.752,"end":5670.089,"text":"可以可以要到我们刚才包括那个统计处的那个我们刚才提到那没有关系就给我一个书面报告那我还是要最后做结论就是我长期强调偏乡教育真的根本之道就是在地人才在地培育在地长期留用我真的我真的这是我的"},{"start":5671.195,"end":5693.3,"text":"我們現在會往這個方向來做真的需要這樣子那我真的很希望就是我們可以新增第六條之一之類的就是跟地方的大學設一個偏鄉在地師資養成班優先的錄取在地青年結合在地的實習就業的留任保證我希望我們偏鄉不是只有"},{"start":5694,"end":5716.517,"text":"讓老師來而是自己培養出來我覺得這才是根本之道也是當年要開始推動偏鄉教育條例當時我還是一個偏鄉的老師校長我當年就是一直這樣訴求我認為要這樣子做這個偏鄉教育缺乏老師的困境才有辦法解決好不好謝謝委員的建議現在屏東大學那邊也有這樣的專班"},{"start":5719.419,"end":5742.38,"text":"謝謝那個是我很高興的那個也是我爭取的但是我是希望說能夠全面來做那因為最近中央總預算還在卡關那財化法也卡關我是代替很多縣市政府學校在問就是三張EQ還有有機食材這些那學校你們有沒有掌握到各地學校的狀況"},{"start":5743.581,"end":5772.364,"text":"细节我请署长我们其实是已经都跟地方有谈过了大概也从他们预算里面看出有些县市的编列的状况那么也在协助地方的相关的单位里面跟地方政府要求那还是说明一下因为很多学校就是有点紧张简单的讲我们会去用114年的预算做对照如果有差额的部分我们会行文给他那个编列数请他们做垫付好谢谢谢谢市长署长谢谢主席"},{"start":5774.093,"end":5791.187,"text":"謝謝武麗華委員那官員請回座謝謝委員們都很專心把各種之前跟教育部相關的問題就在年度將戒指而有會產生的新問題就回應都蠻好的好我們現在請陳秀寶委員召委質詢謝謝主席請張廖次長請張廖次長"},{"start":5802.162,"end":5825.037,"text":"好委員好次長好先跟您說新年快樂新年快樂但是在新的一年的開始本期非常關心的就是這個在野黨因為擋住了115年總預算那造成我們115年到現在已經是1月7號今天是來到今年度的第二週了但是我們立法院到現在還沒有審查115年的中央政府總預算"},{"start":5825.757,"end":5836.677,"text":"我想請教次長就115年的預算還沒有審那教育部我們有多少新興計畫受阻那會造成什麼樣的影響目前有沒有什麼辦法可以彌補或是目前只能停滯"},{"start":5837.759,"end":5864.045,"text":"譬如像這個大專校院的老舊校舍這部分的整修我們有編那這次這個是新興計畫像污染機產業的教育這個也是新興計畫像這個竹苗地區有一些高中高等學校的這個補助還有這個有一些高中學校建置要設這個污水跟排水系統的設備這就屬於新興的啦那還有一些智慧雨林產業創生人才教育育成的這些計畫有好幾項"},{"start":5865.265,"end":5879.923,"text":"所以我们其实我们在新的年度我们列了很多的新兴计划但是因为这个预算的关系新兴计划这五项大概就占了31亿就只能先停滞了目前没有办法我大概听一下刚才您的这个回复"},{"start":5881.024,"end":5898.322,"text":"那像针对学生学习环境的安全的这个影响的这个补助高中学校建设及校舍改善污水排水计划这个部分我看了一下资料它是说会有46校的大专院校及60校的国立高中受到影响喔"},{"start":5898.662,"end":5921.324,"text":"这都是学校他迫切需要真的还是要呼吁一下在野党即便说教育部你们的原有的计划是可以动之的但是关于这个新兴计划的部分卡关对学生的这个学习环境学习相关的一些设备充实还是会有一定的影响因为我们像相关的像耐震不足的校舍老座建筑都没有办法进行改善"},{"start":5921.724,"end":5950.664,"text":"我们现在地震很常发生风灾也都通常蛮严重的对我们的学校的环境这个安全疑虑是很大的那刚才次长你有提到一个新建计划就是配合经济部推动这个无人载具产业发展统筹计划这个部分我知道我们彰化县有受到补助就是补助你们总共有补助了14个校次要采购一些无人机的相关设备这个影响到我们彰化县一些人才培育的这个相关的计划"},{"start":5951.184,"end":5967.774,"text":"那還有就是除了這些校園的安全之外學習的權益之外我想要請教次長說剛剛講的說這些相關的計畫只能停滯那以後呢以後有什麼相關的經費可以來彌補這些目前停滯的計畫嗎"},{"start":5969.537,"end":5997.837,"text":"按照法令的限制就是没有办法新型计划就是没有办法开始所以这边其实我还是要提醒呼吁下战野党就是不要因为这个政治的利益影响到我们孩子受教的权益谢谢文官那次长我再请教你之前我们教育部有推动一个有13篇的试读中国的这个教材这个辅助教材预计在去年9月之后要上路请问有没有如期上路目前推动情形怎么样"},{"start":5998.297,"end":6014.545,"text":"我們目前是請這個學科的老師來做研習那也來因為那是新編的教材所以我們也是請他們做一些回饋那有一些可以著語修正的部分我們會著修所以現在是說先請教師來做相關的研習那針對我們相關的內容那學校現場教學現場老師可以提供相關的意見來調整"},{"start":6023.51,"end":6044.679,"text":"其實針對這個試讀中國的教材的推動本席發現我看一下媒體相關報導是有完全不同的狀況那我們中央社算是以真實的民調結果來指出有近六成的民眾是支持開發教材來加強學生的國家認同國際上的新聞我看到香港的新聞它只說台灣各界是有強烈反彈"},{"start":6045.379,"end":6073.289,"text":"所以這兩篇報導是完全相反的方向市長您認為是什麼原因造成這個完全不同方向的報導我想就像委員提供的資料裡面我們其實是多數的民意機構的調查是認同就是說其實不管是老師或學生他們其實有一個正確的國家認同能夠強化中小學生的一個國家認同所以我們在開發這教材的時候其實也非常小心也透過"},{"start":6074.969,"end":6092.176,"text":"符合課綱的精神然後請學科中心的老師來討論甚至來收集資料然後能夠做研發然後彼此之間還有一些討論做修正所以是非常嚴謹的我們在有些已經在有的其實已經到學校去做這種"},{"start":6092.776,"end":6117.502,"text":"一次性的演講譬如說在週會或者說在一些特殊的場合裡面我們也知道其實現在教學的現場也有不同的老師也好家長也好都有不同的政治立場所以我們也很希望它那個教材是一個比較中立性的但到目前為止在試推的結果還沒有說因為這樣子學生回去跟家長或老師去提出說檢舉或抗議的所以"},{"start":6117.822,"end":6135.075,"text":"基本上我們在研發這個補充教材第一個是遵守108課綱的精神第二個我們當然在收集資料上也透過學科中心的教師互相辯證然後很嚴謹地來研發其實以次長您的回答也表示說我們相關的教材也納入了多方的意見來參考而且會來調整"},{"start":6137.557,"end":6155.061,"text":"那當然面對這個不同的這個方向的這個報導呢可能是中國的認知作戰也可能是香港的媒體根本不了解我們台灣的現況但無論如何本席都覺得說我現在講的說除了這個世獨中國教材其實媒體世獨對我們孩子們也一樣的重要"},{"start":6155.421,"end":6171.075,"text":"我们需要教育我们的孩子如何辨别假新闻假讯息让我们的孩子有这些相关的媒体试读的素养不会被假的这个媒体内容所蒙蔽所以我这边要请教次长说我们是不是可以严密推动媒体试读教材谢谢"},{"start":6171.235,"end":6185.506,"text":"其實媒體試讀目前在依據課綱精神他也是很重要的素養所以在很多的國高中其實都已經有一些前導學校也都有很好的一個課程設計那甚至我們對我們那個相關的那個"},{"start":6186.874,"end":6214.729,"text":"终身师也有一些规划所以其实媒体试读这部分在学校里面我们现在是说除了前导学校中心学校以外我们当然是就像委员所讲的非常重要所以我们也希望能够扩大所以会演绎就是相关的这个媒体试读的教材因为其实我们孩子有这样基本的媒体试读的素养的话除了协助孩子们更加清楚的了解我们的国家认同及国际情势各种假信息对 分辨假信息的这个能力我希望说那"},{"start":6215.269,"end":6240.702,"text":"這個教育部是不是三個月內你有個書面報告給本席辦公室讓我了解說你們大概怎麼回話因為我在前天有一天早上六點多有個家長非常要緊的打電話給我他是兩個學生的阿公一個在念國中一個在念高中他說孩子們回來跟他說老師說那阿公爬來六千塊要導航我說這是什麼答案這是什麼這種做法他說學校老師說的"},{"start":6241.582,"end":6267.753,"text":"所以我覺得這個非常重要這個不管是對試讀中國對媒體的這個相關的試讀的這個辨識和能力我覺得是非常重要因為學生如果有這樣子錯誤的訊息進來他無法試讀無法辨識的話我覺得對於這個國家的認同造成混淆我覺得這是一個很不好的影響好那現在因為我時間有限我們趕快接下來回到我們偏遠地區學校施政這個問題"},{"start":6269.554,"end":6292.384,"text":"目前我們教育部現有的失陪公費生制度呢其實應該也可以說是為了保障偏遠或特殊地區學校的學生的受教權益因為我們規定這個公費生接受偏遠地區學校的聘任呢實際應該服務6年以上才可以提出接聘到非偏遠地區那根據教育部這邊的統計呢112年的公費生培育人數是350人"},{"start":6293.664,"end":6299.869,"text":"那根據地方縣市政府統計106年到112年偏遠地區學校公費教師屆滿及未屆滿服務年限調離的有162人平均每年是調離23人等於說每年培育公費生的他是每年培育公費生的6.57%那這邊要探討是說針對公費生的留任屆滿調離或是未屆滿調離的原因我們教育部你們有沒有實際上去了解"},{"start":6320.063,"end":6336.017,"text":"有沒有一個追蹤機制來回饋檢討公費生的制度或是我們要釐清真正說偏遠地區的教師他教學現場教學環境或是生活上的差異我們才能夠隨時的來調整他們就是比較適合他們的制度"},{"start":6336.477,"end":6358.452,"text":"所以的确委员关心的没有错这个资料所显示的也是一个很重要的议题所以我们现在也会设立一个平台来像委员讲的我们来追踪了解增加它的诱因然后诱因不足的部分譬如说在培育的阶段我们其实最近也有一些措施比如提高公费生的补助如果过去它的门槛就是"},{"start":6360.793,"end":6377.882,"text":"賠一點錢就離開了那當然就會比較他就很容易就離開尤其最近那個學校大量開缺這個也有一些影響所以我們會來檢討市長其實偏鄉教室常年都有流動率很高的問題那在上一屆會期我們那個教文委員會也開過這個關於偏鄉教育的這個公聽會"},{"start":6382.665,"end":6411.01,"text":"那很多教師啊協會有反映偏鄉的現場的問題例如說這些教師通常還要身兼行政啊校務啊雜務那麼剛到教育現場就會承擔到這麼高的壓力那同一個學校呢同一個偏鄉學校要6年以上才能夠借聘他校8年以上才有9任獎金他同樣留在偏鄉只要他不是同一個學校他的年資是中斷他是並沒有辦法累計總年資當然反映最多的就是說"},{"start":6411.81,"end":6432.521,"text":"薪資跟工作的負擔沒有成正比所以說針對這些相關的這些問題我們有沒有一一的去研議面對這些問題我們改善的方案委員所提到的有些個案顯示的一些制度上的一些落差譬如說偏鄉的學校掉偏鄉的學校算不算久任這個我們都有開會討論那也都放寬認定"},{"start":6435.417,"end":6463.249,"text":"我想教師也會覺得就是說現在偏鄉教師的這些相關的措施都著重在留人的這個思維那也表示說我們教育單位就覺得說同一個教師持續的在一個地方任教對孩子的教育相較於教師流動呢同一個教師是比較有注意的那所以這邊也希望說教育部呢你們是不是針對如何穩定師資我們提出相應的這個配套那因為我"},{"start":6464.229,"end":6488.459,"text":"主席已經站起來了我希望說你們對剛才提到這些問題每一個不同的問題我們都需要一一的去了解為什麼有這樣的問題產生我想這幾年來我們開了23次的分區跟全區的一個偏向會也收集了很多意見在立法院我們每一個會期幾乎我們都會排相關的專報所以我們收集到的意見但是收集到的意見我們要有辦法去解決它"},{"start":6490.339,"end":6507.851,"text":"市長這樣 你們請將你們收集到的訊息這些相關的資訊以及教育部所做因應調整的規劃你彙整之後 一份報告給我們辦公室可以 我們再請那個委員需要的話 我們會提供好 謝謝 謝謝市長 謝謝主席好 謝謝曾舊寶召委請官員回座 謝謝你喝水 喝水"},{"start":6518.178,"end":6534.075,"text":"請葛如君委員質詢謝主席有請張亮萬堅次長請次長"},{"start":6539.813,"end":6553.843,"text":"委員好市長首先要感謝教育部在去年的最後一天也就是2024年的12月31號全面的宣布了要來調整兼任級待課教師的終點費謝謝漲幅大約是20%國小336調到40國中378調到455高中420調到505本席先前數次關心這個議題回顧近20年來台灣的基本工資大幅調漲2022"},{"start":6569.514,"end":6573.277,"text":"2006到2026的這20年間時薪從66塊調升到196元這樣的漲幅我想次長應該很清楚是197%相較之下我國的教師終點費國高中35年來僅調整過一次高中從400塊調到420塊國中360調到378漲幅"},{"start":6594.872,"end":6616.721,"text":"5%那國小則是調整兩次260調到336漲幅29%那20年來教師的這個終點費漲幅真的是遠遠落後基本薪資可以說是少得可憐那本次的漲幅雖然沒有達成各界的期待但還是要再次的謝謝教育部這一次調漲讓兼任以及待課教師的終點費"},{"start":6619.566,"end":6624.423,"text":"從漲18塊只能買一支原汁筆後來才知道這個果汁筆現在要四五十塊一支了"},{"start":6625.529,"end":6651.131,"text":"到了我們現在的漲了 可以買一支立可白那我們本來想說 說漲69塊可以買一支立可白結果咧 現在立可白都90塊啦所以漲69塊 一支立可白還買不起這20%的漲幅 對兼任教師 代課教師雖然我們還是很感謝 但是是一小步那顯然對教育部來說 好像是很了不起的一大步調檔金額總算從一位數"},{"start":6652.844,"end":6678.074,"text":"的這個percentage 漲到兩位數這個還是不錯但是如果有一天調漲金額能夠來到三位數我們剛剛講基本工資漲了197%如果真的能漲到三位數我們真的是要普天同慶幫教育部放煙火我甚至如果真的有這麼一天三位數如果我還在這 次長也在這我就cosplay次長來感謝你因為今天部長沒來我就不cosplay他了"},{"start":6678.954,"end":6707.611,"text":"那除了關心兼任以及代課教師的權益我們要在此關心全體高中以下教師的權益以教育部公布兼任代課教師的中典費調漲的同時網路上也有許多的教師發出不平之名他們除了教學工作以外還有很多人要擔任導師還有我們一直在講的行政工作要減量他們還是持續的肩負那本席要在此替他們發聲請問次長教育部這一次宣布調漲兼任以及代課教師的中典費"},{"start":6708.251,"end":6726.897,"text":"要回溯到2025年的9月1號起生效有許多老師在論壇上反映目前老師請試假或是少於三天的病假都是自己付終點費給代課教師難道這些去年請假的老師還要再補扣款給代課教師嗎這當中的終點費的價差應該要如何支應"},{"start":6731.778,"end":6752.034,"text":"那對於這個本席的詢問就業部的答覆可以說避重就輕說本次終點費的調整還是要讓教師的終點費自行負擔但是到底回溯的部分是不是正式教師也要回溯再把口袋裡的錢掏出來補給代課教師"},{"start":6753.795,"end":6776.554,"text":"教育部沒有正面回覆喔所以我們現在只好來當面問次長到底這當中終點費的價差如何認定如何支應我想回溯的部分我們沒有一個對這個學校的所謂的統一指導因為那個拆勤系統裡面你要查得出來說老師那個請假是有正式經過拆勤系統的"},{"start":6777.114,"end":6795.216,"text":"如果是有的話學校有提報基本上它的價差是由中央跟地方政府各50%的負擔要看學校的系統所以學校比較差的那就就老師自己掏錢了是這個意思嗎當然是不是所以如果是一致適用就是一致適用如果是老師私底下"},{"start":6796.197,"end":6822.989,"text":"这种我们怎么去知道说老师有没有透过那个我觉得如果有个别学校有这种私底下的问题我觉得如果老师正式教师是不得已的我觉得教育部还是有责任希望你们还是要全盘的了解一个整体的状态否则不能是你们发的红包是让正式教师口袋里掏钱出来支付我们是编预算来支付的"},{"start":6823.269,"end":6837.485,"text":"這一點可不可以全面的來確認一下不要讓有正式教師在網路上面搞不清楚狀況最後還真的掏錢了不會有這種情況吧回溯的這個部分回溯的部分那因為是過去了嘛"},{"start":6838.086,"end":6866.446,"text":"所以委員反映的這個問題的確要關心那這個我們會跟地方政府就剛剛次郎有講到他是在拆勤上是正式有登錄的那比較好認定嘛沒有啦這個我們會來一起跟地方一起處理你不要發紅包是中央在發講到有責任要比較複雜的就說是地方請中央肩負起這個責任一起來好不好一起來好不好因為你沒有國力也有私力嘛就一起那我想鄭子老師的待遇最新一次的調漲是114年的軍工教條薪3%"},{"start":6867.987,"end":6891.939,"text":"那如果兼任和待課教師的中年費調漲20%要從這個部分的正職老師口袋身上出來這個有點康他人之慨我相信這也不是教育部的目的啦對吧所以我想教育部宣布這個紅包啊紅包裡的錢呢不要由正職老師的口袋來出回溯這兩字也是你們寫的你們要就搞清楚不要回復我們的文件呢不清不楚讓老師也搞不清楚狀況"},{"start":6892.839,"end":6913.999,"text":"我想接下來 次長我們的政策其實我們就希望說要有緩衝期否則變苛政 一個好事變壞事所以剛剛我們提到這個回溯的部分這個待課終點費的差額在了解清楚的情況之下是不是全額應該由教育部不管你要跟地方政府還是什麼就是以公費之意 次長可不可以當場承諾什麼"},{"start":6915.8,"end":6937.561,"text":"就是我們講的回溯的部分正值教師口袋裡掏出來支付他們的錢有記錄的這個差額就應該全額由教育部或者你不管你用什麼方式以公費之意我剛才也提過他只要有差請系統裡面有記錄的當然就是有公費之處但是因為各校的系統有差異的我想教育部還是要有責任來處理好不好"},{"start":6938.061,"end":6965.816,"text":"工費能夠來處理因為那個要有依據來你有依據這個依據的辦法你們應該要去協調對 我們會跟地方協調好不好 好我想接下來還要再講本次教師待遇的調整的裁員將由教育部協助地方政府本次調整所需的50%同樣是中央的支票由地方來買單這50%要怎麼計算有回溯到這個去年9月1號嗎教育部宣布調整之前有沒有跟地方政府討論"},{"start":6966.917,"end":6992.743,"text":"那如果地方政府回覆真的沒有裁員的資訊教育部要怎麼處理呢對 我想11月25號我們有跟地方政府的代表都協商過那大家是認為這樣的一個政策對於基層老師的士氣是有鼓勵好 是有協商過啦 那就好那我想我要回去講剛剛那個回溯的部分因為您有提到說有一些系統系統如果不夠完整表示它有可能學校本身資源就不足啊"},{"start":6993.143,"end":7020.598,"text":"如果學校資源不足了你還讓政事老師我想學校都有人事單位所以就不會有這個狀況請私駕 請病駕 請什麼他合法在拆請系統裡面有的我們再次強調說這個部分我們一定會攤起來那另外也有老師關心還有一個地方也是不太清楚第八節課和寒暑府的終點費有沒有一併調整是不是也請次長說明我們現在國教署有在思考這個問題我們請署長回答"},{"start":7022.399,"end":7044.189,"text":"這次調的是在加級表上正式老師或是學校專任老師 代理老師在運用的代理 代課的費用的終點費那像這一些如果它是比照那個數額的我們會一起考慮如果它是另訂的譬如說它自己自訂一節五百塊那一類它是原有計算標準的它不在這一次討論之列"},{"start":7045.189,"end":7072.731,"text":"你繞了這麼久你就是在跟我講說你們的回覆嘛就是不算嘛沒有一併調漲嘛那討論當中一個學校怎麼可以有兩個世界呢一個終點費怎麼有兩種計算方式呢那既然有調了是不是就一次來調整那我想你們有說要再討論研議嘛是不是可以一併調整老師們第八節課和韓屬府的終點費那既然有在討論大家加緊時間嘛一個月內可不可以書面答覆本席這個我們"},{"start":7075.219,"end":7101.533,"text":"快過年了嘛你這個既然紅包要發就發到底啊我們可以來評估啦好不好不要一個學校兩個世界因為我們那個委員你知道我們就跟地方政府各50%啦所以我們也要再找地方政府來反映我相信大家都會支持老師的薪資這麼久沒有調整了我相信不會有人去阻擾的我們現在講的終點費是法規上證客的終點費跟代理代課的終點費我爭取一點時間啦比較明確我們提到了這個AI啊"},{"start":7102.293,"end":7127.068,"text":"你們現在做的這個AI的指引我不知道市長有沒有去看中小學學生最常使用的AI工具您知道是什麼嗎AI工具那個CHEP GPT嗎有很多CHEP GPT Canva Copilot都有 Gemini結果你們的這個深層式AI的指引只寫了兩個平台叫英才網和酷英網"},{"start":7128.642,"end":7154.976,"text":"這個我們接到很多的意見說負評如潮說這個與真實情況脫節所以市長這個事實上我們看到有這種多樣性的問題甚至還有什麼情況還有說這個如果給學生的是說如果對AI內容有疑慮應向老師或家長請教給家長跟老師的版本市長你仔細看我們字放大給你看"},{"start":7156.076,"end":7181.47,"text":"給家長跟老師的版本說有學生來問的話或你用的話有意義結合自己的經驗和判斷思維來檢視結果這樣不是推來推去嗎事實上你應該要讓大家知道說AI有問題要去查資料哪裡是要做得更好我們在此希望能夠具體要求就是說這個能不能重新檢視一下我們甚至還有看到什麼情況更離譜"},{"start":7183.127,"end":7206.898,"text":"裡面還提到說 這些平台會要求輸入E-mail 電話 住址等個人資料對年紀小的學生風險很高現在很多主流的平台 註冊哪一個需要輸入地址的註冊哪一個需要電話的 不用啊結果我們一去看才發現什麼英才網要輸入身份證 字號 要輸入這些資料"},{"start":7207.978,"end":7222.326,"text":"然後你裡面只提到英才網提到這個什麼酷英網你是在講你們自己平台風險很高嗎這一份文件市長我要講完全不合格啊所以能不能本席在此據理要求教育部重新檢視"},{"start":7223.607,"end":7239.623,"text":"相關的這個事項在寒假結束後正式開學前能不能有一個修訂版的AI指引發布給全國中小學市長可不可以當場承諾會更新更正這個版本真的不及格啦我們會把委員的意見納入我們盡量在寒假以前能夠"},{"start":7241.084,"end":7263.652,"text":"用意良好但是要符合現況好不好謝謝可以嗎有承諾嗎主席站起來我最後一個議題其實我們在講這個偏鄉其實是可以結合AI跟科技的數位工具現在有許多部會去針對去投入這些科技的工具可是我們發現教育部好像"},{"start":7264.943,"end":7287.185,"text":"沒有看到 導致大家自力更生 去投入資源很多NGO 誠智 TFT 結合一些NGO 還有一些友好的組織去開發這些AI的工具來協助偏鄉教師來做SEL的社會情緒的學習的教練等等我們是想要問 就是說今天時間有限"},{"start":7288.106,"end":7305.659,"text":"我想可不可以請教育部在會後整理一份AI工具開發的清單包括投入的預算AI工具的用途以及開發的期程讓我們全民包括天香的教師還有這些環境家長學生一起了解教育部作為"},{"start":7307.02,"end":7325.307,"text":"AI內閣的一環教育又是最重要可能會立刻被AI影響的你們現在在AI上有做哪些努力可不可以一個月內整理給我們已經在做我們現在很多專業的一些研習工作老師工作坊裡面也有很多我說教育部做的工具"},{"start":7327.007,"end":7354.573,"text":"要再質疑你提什麼音才網什麼哭音網都很棒但是工具的部分現在AI有很多Tool可以幫助老師自我訓練或練習情境的練習好不好市長透過AI工具的協助我們也都在推動這方面的研習不是市長你還是沒聽清楚不好意思主席因為市長一直在假裝聽不懂我現在講的是工具不是研習AI的工具"},{"start":7355.433,"end":7381.474,"text":"AI工具的開發清單投入的預算AI工具的用途可不可以一個月內整理給我市長您不清楚沒關係我們會後請製科師這邊大家整理一下這是好事我們來協助減輕第一線教師負擔尤其偏鄉教師他們一人要身兼數職用科技用AI去協力他們這是非常好的事讓他們的全副精力投入教學幫助學生幫助家長"},{"start":7382.414,"end":7408.47,"text":"現在開發的我們在注意啦我們也會整理出來好不好整理出來我們一起來努力謝謝應該就其實就結束了嘛謝謝主席謝謝國務軍委員謝謝市長請回座我們等一下再郭育琴委員質詢結束後休息休息休息"},{"start":7410.151,"end":7427.007,"text":"休息十分鐘吧休息十分鐘好OK那現在請郭育晴委員質詢好謝謝主席有請次長"},{"start":7431.995,"end":7459.178,"text":"委員好市長早安我想要先肯定一下去年我們教育部針對教師擴大偏鄉地區傷害保險的適用對象這個部分要給予肯定但是我想偏鄉的教育其實還有很多精進的空間今天我就三大的一個主題來請教一下包含師資的部分人才的流用的問題再來還有行政負擔過重"},{"start":7459.978,"end":7483.706,"text":"另外還有就是區域教育的資源中心那我想這三個部分其實也值得我們好好的來關心一下那我想現在這個偏鄉教育偏鄉學校長期就存在著這個有邊但是沒人有邊無人這樣子的一個窘境那我想實際在撐起這個教育現場的大部分都是代理教師還有這個代課教師"},{"start":7484.426,"end":7504.354,"text":"那我想這是過去的一個制度的設計不管是這個加級啦或者是進修啦甚至所謂的留任的一個誘因喔大多數都還是以所謂的正式教師為主要的思考的一個重點喔那導致這個偏鄉的學校可能會有所謂的在師師上的一個輪替或者是換人"},{"start":7505.114,"end":7534.715,"text":"那等於是在教學現場的一個對於學生來講是這個他們的一些不穩定的一個狀態那學生也必須要重新的來適應那我想剛剛我有提到其實關鍵並不是我們沒有人才也不是所謂的找不到人但重點是我們留不住人這個部分請教一下這個次長有沒有什麼樣可以穩定師資更確切實際的一些作為或者是我們正在改進的一個研議的一些方法"},{"start":7534.895,"end":7559.432,"text":"谢谢委员关心事实上那个配降条例我们从2017年底开始上路之后到现在这样8年左右事实上也投入了大量的资源那刚才陈儒刚才我也跟委员在关心说我们这个教室的流动率刚才提到那个代理教室的比例其实都有降从数据来看刚才特别提到说像那个流动率从107年那时候的国小"},{"start":7560.112,"end":7575.744,"text":"那时候高达2.14那个流动率那到了113年已经降到1.21那么跟全国的平均1.02呢有差距但是也缩短了降幅相当高那国中的部分事实上也从107年的1.92%降到了113年的1.36%"},{"start":7581.889,"end":7601.288,"text":"我想现在精致教育这件事情对对我们是从数据上看到它的流动率确实降低而且降低的幅度不少这几年一直稳定大概在这上面我们会继续投入资源那代理教师的比例也是一样以前大概三成就是正式一般的大概是13到18%平均那现在大概也到25%"},{"start":7602.629,"end":7630.123,"text":"左右所以有这样我想我们有进步但是其实还可以再更精进可以再更精进那这次其实我也提出了这个修法这个学校从这个所谓的自聘合格的一个代理教师应该要纳入他们专聘教师相同的一个在聘的机制跟发展的一个机制那这是我的修法的一个重点那如果有再更进一步的一些盘整或者是说我们对于所谓的这个偏乡教育的一些资源有更详细的一些数字再麻烦提供给我办公室"},{"start":7630.583,"end":7652.225,"text":"那剛剛其實陳儒這個次長有說像修法委員他也非常關心這一個部分那同步也給我辦公室那第二個其實我們真的要來就是也很沉重啦因為必須講現在除了教學以外那麼在偏鄉的學校其實常常我們看到老師或者是校長甚至主任他都要身兼所謂的行政"},{"start":7652.805,"end":7675.638,"text":"還有一些所謂的這個非常細碎的一些雜物那在今年的這個元旦其實這個關鍵評論就有一位這個師培生他特別投書那看了其實很感慨他說他去偏鄉的教學現場看到了一位上了年紀的主任在放學之後還要獨自的打掃學校的廁所這不是一時的心情這變成是一種日常"},{"start":7676.158,"end":7702.27,"text":"那在偏鄉的一個地區教師實際付出他們在工作的一些時間往往一天都超過至少18個小時以上那我想這個部分偏鄉教育在學校的現場行政是不是真的是很大的一個壓力跟負擔那這個部分我們怎麼解要怎麼樣來幫助他們對 謝謝委員關心其實這個委員看到那個問題確實就是說有些偏鄉他的這個學生數少 班級數少"},{"start":7703.47,"end":7725.441,"text":"人力少所以它很多行政的資源上也不足所以我們有設立這個區域教育資源中心就是變價條例上面之後它會負責大概很多縣市大概是以國中學期設立一個好幾個國小它可能會有一些共用的一個行政統合的這個也就是我在草案當中其實我有特別想我們要避免一人多職"},{"start":7727.382,"end":7749.589,"text":"區域資源中心其實我們每年補助的額度大概在400到600萬所以說也有相當的人力的因素因為學校的這個行政的資源如果我們學校行政的資源沒有辦法前進其實再多的資資的政策其實都會被這些行政給耗損掉所以這也就是我在草案當中我有特別提到就是行政的業務是不是應該有區域教育資源中心"},{"start":7751.509,"end":7779.355,"text":"來集中來做支援但是這個問題來囉為什麼要說這個問題來囉這是我有第三個問題因為沒有足夠的人力其實也就沒有明確的一個統籌的權限那也就是說他到底是研究跟支援的單位還是說他應該要把所謂的負責師資他們要共享巡邏巡迴或者是輔導課後的一個統籌的一個協調這個部分我們在分工還有人力上的配置這個部分怎麼解"},{"start":7780.165,"end":7798.053,"text":"我想这个部分每一个区域教育支援中心面临的可能都不太一样那我们会尽量就是说我们在很多分区会议里面他们也会反映说人力不足或者说那样子的一个学校里面中心学校里面面临的什么重要问题我想每一个在地方先是政府也可以"},{"start":7798.693,"end":7819.348,"text":"专任的人力其实真的要到位我们不要再让老师来做接班那我想这个偏乡教育不是一年撑过一年就算了其实我们要撑起的是一直在给资源其实现在中央财务法我们中央的统筹款少了我们在偏乡每年40亿这部分我们还是保留我们没有减掉"},{"start":7819.608,"end":7841.301,"text":"那針對我剛剛所提的不管是師資也好或者是我們的行政的負擔也好或者是我們剛剛講的教育資源中心我們要讓他更加有利喔這個部分如果有一些精心的一些報告數據再提供給我好那最後一點點的時間喔我再次的強調喔那去年其實我就一直不斷的在我們的就是"},{"start":7842.101,"end":7865.394,"text":"教育部備詢的時候我有特別提到我們的校事會議的制度的改善當時其實我們也聽到部長本人他也在立法院有承諾他說在2025年年底之前要完成相關的修法關於校事會議但我們現在看到的現實是要延到12月 不是"},{"start":7865.834,"end":7888.302,"text":"去年說要12月底現在是1月12號那我想要問的是這個對於第一線的老師來說校士會議他們依舊是心裡的痛依舊是心裡的痛那這個延期到底是跳票還是這個延期中間是有什麼環節被卡關了這個部分我是不是先請次長來先說明一下為什麼要延到1月12號"},{"start":7889.002,"end":7904.415,"text":"所以很抱歉就是因為同時在國中小高國中小國教的現場其實有很多問題我們同時在解決包括剛才我們12月31號宣布的導師費行政減量等等這些措施所以我們在這個校士會的修法在"},{"start":7904.875,"end":7929.906,"text":"草案公佈之後那也有相當的團體大概可以看到12月22號那個學選團體也來陳情所以我們大概也認為說有些可以在程序上更完備一點所以我們在走這個程序也沒有拖很久我們當然沒有在12月底前來那個時候沒有說明對 那就是1月12因為在這個過程裡面我們其實是有在做一些討論所以1月12號是會如期"},{"start":7931.087,"end":7958.002,"text":"我们1月12号就静待教育部提出来的一些改进的方法包括那个婆叔的分流大案才进入校师会议小案我们以行政考为主好 那我们期待1月12号我们听到校师会议的给第一线的老师他们有一个更完整让他们更心安能够在教学的现场不要再承受太大的一个压力了好吗在公布之前我们也有用"},{"start":7958.402,"end":7979.933,"text":"也有告诉学校说有些过去反映的不合理的一个那个的做法我们要请学校谨慎使用好那我们就期待这个1月12号我们会听到这个对校事会议的最后的一个交代好吗好谢谢谢谢次长谢谢书长谢谢主席好谢谢国议警委员官员请回座我们现在休息10分钟"},{"start":7987.222,"end":7990.748,"text":"下一位發言質詢的委員是范雲委員好 謝謝"},{"start":8559.626,"end":8560.52,"text":"我還沒被發生法律"},{"start":8604.178,"end":8609.243,"text":"好 我們現在會議繼續進行現在請范雲委員進行質詢好 謝謝周委 有請次長有請次長"},{"start":8621.246,"end":8646.725,"text":"好 次长早安那今天我首先是要肯定教育部了你们给全国的教师一个跨年贺礼提高了教师的待遇那你可以看到教团几乎都是给予肯定那我们看到导师的加给从每个月三千到四千全面调涨中点费20%还有加发行政工作奖金那这个照片是我之前总质询的"},{"start":8647.085,"end":8667.072,"text":"也是幫你們爭取我們知道問題是在行政院整體的規劃人跟錢都非常的重要那也特別講一下工會也肯定代理教室工會認為這是百分之二十趴是歷年最大的漲幅你看這邊有國小 國中 高中這次真的是漲幅最高"},{"start":8667.852,"end":8683.521,"text":"那他們期待教育部未來進一步嚴寧制度化的規範譬如說終點費跟物價指數是不是能夠像我們勞動部的工資一樣能夠有一個定期調整的公式讓教師終點費跟導師的津貼隨著社會勞工的薪資調漲那這部分"},{"start":8689.264,"end":8711.045,"text":"我也想今天请问市长有一些虽然是大家很肯定可是还是有一些地方大家关心是不是有配套比如说行政工作奖金区分50班以上大校及小校可是小校有可能更辛苦还有就是教师兼行政职务增加1000元有些老师会有相对剥夺感"},{"start":8711.805,"end":8731.477,"text":"还有教保员跟私校没有同步调整那怎么办那回溯到9月1号会不会增加行政负担不知道次长针对这几个问题能不能给大家一些初步的答案好 谢谢委员的关心也感谢委员的争取其实在整个调整上面当然我们认为说20%的这个重点"},{"start":8733.138,"end":8761.528,"text":"是历届最大也是因为过去我们比较少做这方面的调整当然未来我们也会委员接的非常好就是说我们可能有些相关的一个调整的机制我们会建立比较制度性的譬如按照CPI或者按照调薪等等这有一些因素我们来制定一个比较制度性的一个配套措施那第二个就是教保员跟回缩的部分会不会增加行政负担事实上这一部分我们也在跟地方政府来做研商就是说"},{"start":8763.254,"end":8788.295,"text":"我们拨款方面也非常重减也没有很多行政负担他准备什么还要核销这部分我们都重减时间也没有限制就是说我们钱已经拨下去了那你们怎么样子的只要是符合法律责任他们自己可以讲好我们多尊重地方的选择那行政工作奖金方面其实这一次我们调的认为说"},{"start":8789.266,"end":8806.496,"text":"有這個當然有一些我們跟地方在討論的時候地方就有反應像嘉義縣說他五十班好像只有一間那怎麼處理呢那我們後來呢也透過行政執導去跟地方講說我們就用五趴就把大校他們也一樣雖然沒有五十班以上但是也是有大校找不到校長"},{"start":8807.316,"end":8823.567,"text":"是对那我们同时也做检讨了这个行政那个事务来做行政减量70%那校际合作等等这样子的一个方式小校的部分呢我们其实偏向条例里面也有对小校的行政给资源比如说区域资源中心我们给400到600万"},{"start":8824.528,"end":8844.953,"text":"那另外沒有在偏鄉的也沒有在這個比較大的學校那這些小校的行政負擔如何處理這個我們會跟地方政府再來研商有沒有比較好的一個行政配套措施來支援也跟張廖次長反映一下因為非常多的校長那是肯定教育部這一次的這個爭取就是他們的等於是"},{"start":8845.413,"end":8862.696,"text":"津贴福利但是对于50班以上他们觉得就是希望能够有未来进一步的提升因为毕竟全国校长要管理的学校超过50班的其实没有那么的多我想这部分越涉及到人总行政院整体的规划"},{"start":8863.217,"end":8885.617,"text":"那如果需要我幫忙一起跟行政院爭取的那請次長研議之後可以讓我知道好不好謝謝委員的關心其實在公布之後我們當然也聽到各界的聲音那當然有些是有一些誤解或者說有一些不理解的部分我們會加緊溝通譬如說校長協會或者是甚至有些私校也有提出我們都會去跟他們溝通了解他們的反應好"},{"start":8887.658,"end":8911.905,"text":"對在我們能夠跟地方政府能夠共同支持的情況下我們會來幫忙協助解決好那謝謝喔那因為今天的主題是偏鄉教育嘛那我之前呢就是去年五月的時候質詢的時候有要求幾件事喔那當時也肯定教育部後來擴大開設偏鄉教育的學分班喔那我之前的質詢喔有要求就是這個"},{"start":8913.866,"end":8933.215,"text":"學士後的學分班應該要加開中學的類科然後符合資格自費者應該要能夠單獨報名不需要一定要有公費者才能開班然後也希望教育部可以評估現行自費者搭配久留偏遠服務配套是不是可以提供公費的可能性"},{"start":8933.875,"end":8960.476,"text":"那我知道这些部分其实教育部还需要持续研议那因为今天我们讨论到偏乡这个议题那那个次长这边有没有初步的答案跟方向呢我想那个委员关心的方向跟我们都一致那在加开中学类科的部分我们会来研议然后符合资格自费者也能够单独报名这一部分我们已经有了那第三个部分我们会评估就是说这个"},{"start":8961.337,"end":8975.954,"text":"要怎么样子跟那个九流那个偏远的那个服务配套那是否可行跟还提供公费这个我们就比较比较审慎一点了解因为有一些制度上互相汉格的问题好所以我们会来评估看看好"},{"start":8976.914,"end":9003.695,"text":"後面兩者如果有進一步的進度也讓我辦公室知道好嗎好 謝謝最後還有兩分鐘的時間總預算持續被封殺因為很多人好像感受不到因為法定的支出譬如人事費不會受影響我知道你們教育部有對外講一些譬如說我就知道竹竹苗的公立高中這個部分的一些校舍等等"},{"start":9004.235,"end":9019.034,"text":"就是會被影響那除了竹竹苗這個部分因為我也負責大興竹縣那市長可不可以告訴我們你認為最重要的影響跟傷害是哪個可以讓大家知道一下對 就主要是有五項計畫"},{"start":9020.736,"end":9043.462,"text":"大概有31億是受到比較重大的影響那其實這些所謂的新興計畫也是地方政府或者是國立學校或者是地方基層的建議就是說他們有急迫性的需要譬如說大學院校的一個涉及到結構安全的改建這邊可不可以暫停一下請問是哪些大學院校的建物改建會受影響因為這個也是新興計畫嘛"},{"start":9045.563,"end":9071.526,"text":"好 我們請那個業務單位來對 因為我想讓大家知道我們劉書斌委員也很認真聽我們藍白的委員會更有感哪些大專院校的是校舍還是什麼建物會受到影響是 跟委員報告因為我們在115年編列15億的這個計畫15億的經費主要是用在國立大學的老舊校舍國立大學老舊校舍那有沒有已經申請的可以告訴我們是哪些國立大學嗎"},{"start":9072.287,"end":9101.252,"text":"跟我們報告目前因為在這個計劃還在是使用115年的預算還在規劃當中所以這個計劃如果預算沒有獲得支持的話我們還沒有辦法跟各國立學校補達就是所有的國立大學因為你計劃還沒過所以就沒辦法公告就沒辦法申請了超過40年然後有很多國立大學有反應所以我們訂了這個計劃提供給他們申請那目前就是這個計劃如果新型計劃沒有通過的話這些學校他想要申請大概就沒有就沒有辦法"},{"start":9102.892,"end":9128.284,"text":"請問一下竹竹苗譬如新竹縣是哪些學校會受影響公立高中可以一兩句話告訴我們嗎因為時間要到了因為這是我服務的地方新竹地區的國立的高中包含竹工竹中竹女都是非常重要關係高中等等好幾個學校都是校舍對不對校舍的"},{"start":9129.404,"end":9155.602,"text":"整修嗎正班吧正班教室有些會涉及到國立的正班有些我們爭取來幫地方政府包含興建大樓這些都會影響好 那是正班是每次家長跟我呈行的議題所以真的是呼籲所有的藍白委員我們這邊好幾位那真的不要再擋總預算這個對大新竹縣我服務的選區也非常的重要謝謝好 謝謝委員關心 謝謝"},{"start":9158.956,"end":9176.481,"text":"好 謝謝范瑀委員那萬美玲請回座我們現在請等一下 你要喝水嗎好我們現在請萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":9186.854,"end":9195.08,"text":"好 谢谢赵伟我们有请次长我看署长一起好了吧署长万元你好"},{"start":9196.052,"end":9224.507,"text":"好 次长好 署长好首先先肯定这个教育部在去年12月31号终于宣布了高中以下的学校导师费3000块调到4000块终点费也全面的调增20%以及第三项的教师行政工作奖金也分三级最高每个月加发2000还追溯我想这是值得肯定的但是提高了这个"},{"start":9226.007,"end":9240.717,"text":"導師費跟這個兼任的這個教室的這個終點費事實上其實老師們最期待的我想次長說得很清楚就是希望心知神意法制化我們希望把它法制化因為我們去看其實"},{"start":9242.662,"end":9264.112,"text":"教育部不知道有沒有去了解次長就是說今年為什麼行政院還沒有把軍公教人員的待遇調整這個條例送到立法院去因為我覺得法治化這件事情是相當的重要而不是今天你們認為想調就調然後你們覺得不該調就不該調是隨著心情呢還是隨著當時的感覺那我覺得法治化以後其實對大家都好能不能說明一下"},{"start":9266.155,"end":9276.918,"text":"這份人事單位我想委員的想法我認同當然在這個沒有制度化之前其實從100年到現在其實你說也有調100年 107年 111 113 114年也分別調了3% 3% 4% 4% 3%大概17%"},{"start":9285.72,"end":9310.001,"text":"那包括這一次其實剛才有委員提議嘛譬如說導師費的調整啦 終點費的調整啦這個部分是不是也應該有一個調整機制啦那在部內可以研究研議的範圍內我們會來朝這方面來努力其實市長正如您剛剛所說的啦就是說什麼哪一年有調啊 哪一年沒調啊其實你背得還蠻清楚的喔那什麼時候調了一個3% 什麼時候調了4%我覺得沒有一個規則啦"},{"start":9312.543,"end":9334.319,"text":"我覺得把它法制化下來其實對大家是最有保障的所以我想我們有沒有傾向要儘速的把這個薪資審議法制化我們把它落實下來對 因為這個涉及到其他部會包括人事總署或者是行政院這邊的公教方面的那你有提出來過嗎 教育部我們這邊當然也會反映提出來過嗎委員有反映的話立法院有決議我們都會反映"},{"start":9335.06,"end":9353.983,"text":"所以你有提出来过吗教育部我的部分没有不是你个人啦你今天来是代表教育部嘛教育部有没有提出来过部的部分当然希望朝这方面走但是这个牵涉到的就是一个康复会那我希望啦当然牵涉到很多的这个部会但是我希望教育部能够向行政院去了解并且把它提出来好不好"},{"start":9354.691,"end":9376.317,"text":"我只是提說雖然沒有建立這個制度性但是這幾年的調心其實已經適度調心我跟你講調心是應該做的但是不是隨著你想調就調我覺得新之法之化這件事情還是要做所以我希望教育部如果有為我們這些老師著想我們還是盡速把它提出來好不好我們會持續來收集各界的意見好不好包括委員的意見好"},{"start":9377.137,"end":9403.82,"text":"另外這一次的調整我們並沒有納入教保員的教保費沒有錯嘛 對不對我想署長在這邊其實署長您之前是不是有跟全國幼教產業工會也在私下開過很多次會關心過他們很多次也聊過是希望我們在導師費其實還沒有調整之前其實署長您就有跟他們承諾說我們要把教保員的教保費調成跟我們的導師費是一致的 對不對"},{"start":9404.821,"end":9412.33,"text":"那這一次啊 你看你之前有承諾過人家其實 拜託 不要干擾好不好後面這哪一位啊"},{"start":9415.231,"end":9439.415,"text":"学前卒的刚好是对我们不要干扰好不好如果我们本席没有请你的话请不要干扰好不好因为你们的署长其实很厉害不需要你跟他打小报告好那您之前就已经有去承诺他们说我们要把教保员的这个教保费提高跟导师费一样他们满心期待但这一次呢我们去调这个导师费的时候你却没有把我们的教保员的教保费啊"},{"start":9439.835,"end":9445.307,"text":"那按照你的承諾去把它調高那我想請教一下先問一下署長好了 為什麼"},{"start":9446.94,"end":9475.575,"text":"跟委員報告據教師資格的教育夥伴是都一樣教保員的部分會調這個我們已經跟理事長也有說明過現在在修要點也會追溯這個他能完全都掌握先跟委員報告什麼時候呢在一月份我們會把要點修完謝謝一月份會把要點修完怎麼調就是剛剛講的調一千就增加一千據教師資格的老師者那就跟老師一樣教保員的部分調一千"},{"start":9476.135,"end":9493.663,"text":"教保员的部分调一天一千但是因为你之前有承诺过他们说要比照导师费嘛对不对所以他们期待的是比照导师费当然过去我们就是说导师费是三千的时候我们就是三千但现在因为导师费调成四千了我们有没有空间一样我们来调成四千"},{"start":9494.583,"end":9511.878,"text":"刚委员报告的是据教师身份那个因为是起义然后就叫教师那至于教保员他有原来的那个教保的服务费用那那个费用我们要如何去看待他可能还是有一个基准那那个基准之下至少调一千我们就加一千"},{"start":9512.338,"end":9540.908,"text":"好那很好所以一月份的时候我们会把教保员的教保费用再调高一千块然后也追溯对吗对好我们一定要把它落实另外我们看到国教署也把教师行政工作奖金分成了三级那第一级第二级都是五十班以上但是校长每月加发两千行政职人员每月加发一千五那未达五十班的校长跟行政职的人员加发一千我想第一个请教一下彭署长好了好"},{"start":9541.368,"end":9560.568,"text":"就是为什么我们要用五十班作为界定的标准第一个现行就有用七十班七十班按照当时民国八十年代的比例回推回来是现在的大概五十班左右这第一点所以五十班这个律定到目前为止怕还是有一漏所以我们相对小"},{"start":9561.289,"end":9586.107,"text":"相对小的县市它里头如果没有苏长我了解你的意思就是说是过去的法令对不对但是我觉得你这样子调其实不符合我们现在教育的现状因为我们去看苏长我们过去这个年代定的那个法令当然我们要一直不断去做调整那我是不知道你怎么换算的你的换算公司我没办法理解但是我们如果按照现在的这个学校卫生法我们来看"},{"start":9586.767,"end":9615.255,"text":"校户跟营养师我们是以40班为基准那我们的40班怎么定的不是我们不爱挤哪个数字是哪个数字而是我们去看说这个校户他可能就是最佳的一个工作量或者是他这个最大的一个工作承受压力跟这个营养师我们都是40班为一个单位那如果我们是以40班为一个单位那为什么我们在行政工作奖金是要用50班所以这一点我希望我们能够修得更好一点我们就比照学校卫生法"},{"start":9615.915,"end":9639.847,"text":"至少還有一個相關的法的一個規範就是40班希望這點能不能去研議一下我們會來研議好那再來我再請教一下我們一樣50班以上的學校但是校長跟行政職人員的獎金卻是不一樣的一個是2000一個是1500可是那奇怪了那未達50班以上校長跟行政職人員又都是一樣加發1000這又是個什麼標準"},{"start":9643.441,"end":9666.936,"text":"當時是其實就有考慮就是說我們都知道現場有所謂的行政大逃亡就我們擔心說導師會調高之後那個行政家不是我了解我現在的問題不是這個啊不要讓他差距擴大不是嘛我現在是說不要讓他差距過大那你看看你把50班以上校長跟行政職人員他是有不一樣對不對有差500塊那為什麼50班以上校長跟行政職人員就一樣勒你這種標準很奇怪啊為什麼呢"},{"start":9670.107,"end":9694.065,"text":"現在五十班以上的校長兩千五十班以上的行政人員一千五五十班以下的校長行政人員一千那這些考慮那個署長你這樣子答覆是浪費我的時間啊你真的在浪費我的時間我就在問你嘛為什麼五十班以上你有差距五十班以下那校長跟行政職人員就都一樣呢因為剛剛委員講的有一些那個觀念上我把委員再確認一下我想這個題目很小"},{"start":9694.625,"end":9714.219,"text":"但是我觉得这是一种对行政职人员的尊重我是希望是不是我们50班以上的行政职人员你回去研议一下虽然是区区的500块但是这是一个相对的尊重能够跟50班以上的学校一样校长跟行政职的人员我们都可以一样是2000 50班以上我们也朝这个方向去研议一个礼拜内给我一个答复好不好"},{"start":9718.279,"end":9738.237,"text":"接下來呢我想一樣再請教就是校事會議那個次長我好像有看到您在媒體上說我們這個校事會議其實之前就說要提出修正了說去年底看起來是跳票一次那這個跳票其實讓我們基層的教師心惶惶大家都在關注這件事那現在您又公開說1月12這個會不會再跳票"},{"start":9739.017,"end":9763.608,"text":"就下禮拜一這幾天而已不會跳票絕對不會跳票嘛是不是那我想我是不知道你出來的內容會是讓大家很開心還是會讓大家再一次失望那我只是要提醒您對於教師團體所提出來的就是說是不是我們在相關這個爛訴如果其實不成立的時候關於我們的補償機制你有沒有放在裡面我們也在研擬那個配套中"},{"start":9764.068,"end":9790.103,"text":"所以禮拜一我們提出來的校士會的相關修正也會有關於這個爛數的相關補償機制在裡面嗎那個部分那個部分還在那個部分就是條文有公布啦但那部分我們在還在研議中啦我希望喔還有幾天的時間啦這個部分非常的重要部長非常在乎這個啦非常在乎所以既然非常在乎跳票過一次這一次我們希望一起把它納入那我希望次長回去能夠再講一下"},{"start":9790.663,"end":9812.424,"text":"好那最後一個部分再跟趙偉幾分鐘的時間就好我們特教法修正以後我們增加了專職鑑定的評估人員那由國教組去補助各縣市增至專職鑑定評估人員的員額但是為什麼到現在修法一年過後全台仍然有十個縣市沒有依照補助員額來增加這個組合的人力"},{"start":9812.944,"end":9835.083,"text":"甚至於還有九成的這個受教的這個特教老師反映他沒有感覺到平靜工作因此來降低了壓力這什麼原因那而且我們看一下這個資料全國一共核定了100個名額地方政府占了92個但是呢整個全部只有聘了57個還有35個沒有聘足那次長你有沒有去了解為什麼還有這麼多的縣市沒有辦法足夠禁用"},{"start":9835.603,"end":9844.055,"text":"我們也在跟地方協助就是可能在那個他們在聘任上可能有遇到一些困難什麼樣的困難謝謝 請署長回答好不好 來"},{"start":9847.881,"end":9865.995,"text":"第一点他有离职的现象第二点在聘任上可能在设计上就是整个时间还有他工作负担要搭配在一起这一点上我们逐渐是在做检讨那希望钱给他们能够善用出来刚才委员所问的很专业是不是容我们也有给报告完整的报告"},{"start":9866.055,"end":9887.138,"text":"署长我想再提供一个给你做一个参考因为其实很多人在讲说因为特教老师有特教家级但是专职的鉴定人员是没有的那在工作量其实可能是差不多的情况之下他当然会优先选择担任特教老师所以在这个部分我想你应该回去针对问题来研究是不是让专职的鉴定评估人员也可以有特教家级这样会比较好一点"},{"start":9887.879,"end":9909.093,"text":"因為你看我再提供一個數字給你我們目前有四成的特教老師他知道縣市可以設置專職的評鑑人員但這其中只有一成的人有申請過專職的鑑評的支援這代表還有大部分的特教老師依然處於蠟燭兩頭燒的狀況所以這個問題我希望能夠一併做一個改善這些問題剛才上述的問題一個禮拜內給我好不好最後一分鐘次長"},{"start":9919.119,"end":9944.745,"text":"我們按照預算法第54條第一項第二款第一目規定請您注意聽一下新興資本支出及新增計劃在本年度預算完成審議程序後時的動之但依照88條規定辦理或經立法院統一者不在此限這個白話文我翻譯給你聽一下也就是說預算如果沒有辦法如期審查完政府相關新興資本支出及"},{"start":9945.245,"end":9959.345,"text":"新增計畫提出來以後經過立法院同意就能夠先之用您了解這個部分嗎這部分你了解嗎我剛剛所念有沒有錯誤這個部分就依照規定依照規定嘛我剛剛所念的部分就你了解有沒有錯誤"},{"start":9961.582,"end":9989.664,"text":"條文是這麼寫的條文就是這樣嘛那你今天怎麼可以回答說你有五項的新興計畫現在沒有辦法處理那我跟你講我們立法院一定非常支持教育上面所有的新興預算你把它提出來啊好不好如果你今天所答詢我們這些委員說我們目前有五項新興計畫也很急著在教育現場來執行你儘管按照程序我相信你也很了解把它提出來提出來以後我想立法院不管朝野我們一定都會支持這你做得到嗎"},{"start":9992.925,"end":10017.4,"text":"次長請你回答我想只要是法令上程序上可以爭取的我們想不分黨派我們會去爭取當然嘛那所以剛剛我有跟你提了嘛所以這個法令沒有錯嘛那如果沒有錯你現在五項新興計畫你就不用再去想什麼財化法的問題預算審查的問題那你就把它提出來啊你出來以後我相信藍白綠全部都會支持那你願不願意把你今天所說的那五項新興計畫把它提出來"},{"start":10017.66,"end":10037.538,"text":"因为88条的规定是指这个总预算还是它好像指基金市长我想你应该要去把它了解如果有这样的办法你却不提出来在那边挨我觉得这样是不对的好不好我们全部支持你的新兴计划有急迫性的赶快把它提出来我们不分朝野我们全部予以支持可以吗"},{"start":10037.878,"end":10061.744,"text":"我想歸根還是趕快審總預算會比較好趕快審預算當然要審所以我們也要依法來編列預算所以我今天只講教育的預算我們全力支持你的新興計劃你要趕快把它提出來如果你不把它提出來那我們暫時也沒有辦法去協助你是不是 好不好麻煩你依法來做事謝謝好 謝謝望梅林委員的質詢那官員請回座"},{"start":10065.988,"end":10069.632,"text":"現在請陳培宇委員質詢時間4分鐘好 謝謝主席有請張廖萬堅次長 謝謝我請次長"},{"start":10081.011,"end":10097.217,"text":"總預算的基本之道還是要在程序委員會可以過啦這比較重要啦好所以次長剛講的很好關鍵還是總預算好 次長我想跟你分享幾個我們辦公室雖然現在我不再叫我們委員會但是關於偏鄉老師的事情我們還是做了非常多政策跟討論的推進"},{"start":10098.557,"end":10122.766,"text":"第一個在去年年底我們辦公室邀請了部長還有國教署相關同仁還有師醫師然後到TFT跟KISS去做交流主要就是談論我們如何留任偏鄉老師或者是偏鄉老師的養成他們已經在就業當中的養成他們如何去取得相關的證件那我們非常開心聽到部長在聽到相關的報告之後就是所謂進任式的失陪養成"},{"start":10123.266,"end":10146.71,"text":"部長當場就說他在擔任部長以來他一直相信這是一個可能的辦法那他也已經責成私一私不知道這個部分可不可以請教育部再公開表態我們如何協助偏鄉的老師有一個新的開創師培的方法因為部長之前在一個會議中也說希望所有台灣的獅子培育機構可以開創一個多元的對於獅子培育的想像"},{"start":10147.478,"end":10171.35,"text":"是的我想我請那個市長來做進一步的說明好沒問題謝謝好謝謝委員的關心那在我們跟市培大學還有TFT等長期關注偏鄉的這個機構的合作那過去有這樣的機制那我們未來呢也會再強化這個部分那例如說這個國北交大還有我們TFT如何把像國外這種relay它有這種"},{"start":10172.57,"end":10193.415,"text":"在地扣取的精神让他们在实作的机制当中在失陪的过程里就能够把集战力还有对于偏乡的关注以及支持偏乡老师留任的这个支持度我们会积极的来主责让我们三方的合作能够有更多的模组到不同的失陪大学去"},{"start":10194.015,"end":10213.473,"text":"太好了但至少從北教大那邊他們已經有跟你們施醫師提出計劃申請也拜託你們多加幫忙因為確實有很多偏鄉老師他們希望持續留在偏鄉同時取得相關的證照讓大家相信他們不是只有熱情不是只有愛心他們還伴同的專業施培的部分就先到這邊施醫師 市長請回市長請留步"},{"start":10216.155,"end":10242.443,"text":"我繼續討論關於偏鄉老師久任獎金的事情我之前在教文的時候質詢過非常多次第一次是針對所謂的學校不開缺或者是因為其他的原因這一位偏鄉的老師他沒有辦法繼續留在原校服務的這種代理老師可不可以採記這是第一個第二個是全面採用全年聘期以前的代理教師年資可不可以採認這是第二個"},{"start":10243.283,"end":10272.441,"text":"第三個問題我問的是針對其他無法在原校留任的老師或者是跨縣市的年資可被採集的問題在兩次質詢之後我要再次謝謝教育部跟國教署相關的問題大部分都得到解答但是我要再次確認第一個事情去年教育部跟國教署有發函給各個縣市請他們調查符合請領偏鄉9任教師資格的人數我想確定一下去年調查的這一批人他們的9任獎金發放了沒"},{"start":10274.599,"end":10292.4,"text":"來署長獎金發了嗎9任獎金去年調查以來是6500人花了5億多都已經發了各縣市都發了好太好了謝謝那下一個呢相關獎金的作業如果如同剛剛署長說都已經發了可是我們看你們不是只有發錢你們還做相關法規範的盤點第一個"},{"start":10294.242,"end":10321.123,"text":"你们在去年3月提出一个偏远地区学校校长教师9任奖金的相关疑问问答集然后在8月提出了修订可是我还是在修订里面看到一个很大的bug想要跟两位讨论一下第一个关于第17个Q&A的问题关键是这样的代理老师他甄选没有考上原来的学校可是他却考上不同县市的偏乡学校"},{"start":10321.923,"end":10346.671,"text":"也就是說他本人繼續留在偏鄉學校服務可是卻不得請領9任獎金這件事情我認為在現在各地有師資荒代理教師荒的這個情況之下有沒有機會我們放寬認定只要他繼續留在偏鄉的學校他必須要被你們認定成是持續可以累積這個年資這個部分"},{"start":10347.391,"end":10373.51,"text":"其实委员讲的很有就是说这种个案其实很有道理其实我们会跟地方商量原来的规定当然是要在原校六年对 我知道原校是这样现在就是说学校没有开学他没有考上没有继续在那边留任可是他留任的学校也是偏乡对 他跑去一个新的学校是偏乡这个年资其实我刚才有提过说其实在基于鼓励的原则像这样子的一个个案我们尽量朝向比较可以弹性"},{"start":10374.951,"end":10387.362,"text":"能夠接受的一個立場 鼓勵的立場好 那但是因為這個部分確實需要跟地方政府認定對 我不會粗暴的說請你們一個禮拜內給我答覆這個例子有時候跨縣市對對對 那你們覺得多久內可以開完跟縣市政府的會議去討論這個問題"},{"start":10389.884,"end":10404.711,"text":"两个月好我看到你的手了谢谢署长好两个月来最后一题继续往下看我们爬出过偏远地区学校教育发展条例第21条那参考了你们的授权执法是公立学校教师奖金的发放办法的付表"},{"start":10405.311,"end":10432.806,"text":"我們看到在母法偏鄉條例裡頭他就說到並沒有涉及同一所學校也不可以規則於教師的規定在執法裡面是要求要同一個學校連續服務所以按照剛剛次長你的說法我也把法理都找出來了我要說的是因為母法跟執法的寫法可能會讓人覺得他必須要在同一所學校所以如果次長跟署長你們的認知也認為為了讓偏鄉的這些老師們"},{"start":10433.386,"end":10453.752,"text":"有機會留任繼續在偏鄉他可能同樣都在例如說剛剛萬美玲委員所在桃園的復興鄉但是還有非常多偏鄉學校這個部分我們就期待你們兩個月內跟我們相關討論跟回覆這個應該要有彈性的一個空間太好了好我們就持續爭取一起合作謝謝兩位謝謝主席好謝謝陳培宇委員發言我們現在光臨請回座現在請張雅玲委員質詢"},{"start":10468.291,"end":10469.814,"text":"我們請次長好 有請次長委員好"},{"start":10475.543,"end":10500.8,"text":"好 次長好我想去年年底的時候教育部公布了教育師待遇的調整和行政減量的一個政策送給教育人員一個很大的鼓舞那我還是要給予肯定但是我也想要跟次長再繼續討論有關於特教加緊能不能回溯的這件事情我這個之前已經跟次長來討論過但是我想這邊等一下 打不開"},{"start":10502.196,"end":10530.991,"text":"好就是說我們一直到去年我們去年其實就已經3到4月的時候就已經宣布要去調漲了但是我們實際生效的時間是在今年的2月1號那我還是要再跟幫老師們爭取就是說因為現在我想市長一定也非常清楚我們現場的老師們在處理這一些特別是特教生增加的部分其實工作量是增加了非常非常多"},{"start":10531.991,"end":10549.85,"text":"那我們是不是可以讓這件事情一樣都是回溯到去年的九月就是一一四年的新學年我知道這個在跟預算是很有關係但是我只是在想說這部分既然其他部分行政家級啊這些東西做得到那是不是特教家級也可以來努力呢"},{"start":10551.174,"end":10565.162,"text":"這部分因為署這邊有跟地方政府去溝通事實上在家籍的角色上面可能也有一些考慮地方政府其實也有看法上有一些出入我們是不是請署長好 簡單回應好不好 謝謝"},{"start":10566.603,"end":10594.002,"text":"当时特教加级我们大概最后阶段其实还有四个县市一直沟通所以他那个争取已经跟这一个情况是不同的性质争取上那这一次这一个在争取上大家是蛮有共识所以整体是愿意来一起来负担那特教加级在各县市我们也一直往前争取那最后大家有这种共识我们也觉得难能可贵事实上特教老师"},{"start":10594.542,"end":10609.572,"text":"他在代班時他仍然可以追溯領導師費這點倒是完全是一樣的所以他這個職務佳績是另外一個性質不同的佳績我們會努力去讓這個2月1號能夠實踐中間前面也經過了非常多的溝通"},{"start":10610.433,"end":10633.984,"text":"那因为性质不同他代班仍然有了这件事他不会没有导师费他也不会没有职务加急那这件事是不是容许我们会有持续再跟委员跟县市再去了解一下好不好好 我还是希望因为剩下四个县市嘛我们是不是可以还是来持续地努力地来沟通这件事情好不好对 是可以我一起来那就是那持续如果有相关进度的话也是让我们知道好不好好"},{"start":10635.427,"end":10650.058,"text":"那接下來是回到我們今天的這個偏鄉教育那我也是想要來爭取我們的教師待遇是不是可以調整呢就是說我們在去年的時候呢其實也有擴大偏鄉地區的教師傷害保險的適用對象那還是非常感謝但是說"},{"start":10651.279,"end":10674.593,"text":"除了这件事情之外,其他都是齐头式的加剂。我们也都非常清楚的知道,偏乡的教室流动率非常的高。我们从这张图表就可以看到,这是民间团体实现会设他们做的一个统计,就是如果到职两年内就会流失三分之一,四年内就会流失四成。所以我们是不是也可以来做这个九任奖金的调整呢?"},{"start":10674.673,"end":10693.91,"text":"因为在106年开始执行到现在已经是十个年头了所以我们十个年头我们的奖金其实并没有去因应消费者的物价指数来去做一个相对应的调整当时是说每三年会检讨一次可是已经十年了我们可以简单来看一下"},{"start":10695.39,"end":10710.464,"text":"我們的民生漲幅1106年到114年已經漲幅有非常大的落差從10%到20%外食費居住費都是以這樣子的一個幅度來去增加的那如果我們說我這邊也簡單的去算了一下我們的"},{"start":10711.545,"end":10721.229,"text":"排骨便當我們的排骨便當從106年到現在當年是90塊就可以買到一個不錯的排骨便當可是現在115年已經漲到了110塊到130塊這個漲幅已經達到了30到40%"},{"start":10727.833,"end":10741.698,"text":"所以呢等於是說當年他這個現在這個漲幅沒有太大的改變的時候這個很難去對應現在的一個物價水準那同時我們來看一下其他的年金的調整的一個狀態"},{"start":10743.439,"end":10763.238,"text":"我們也可以看到106年跟現在相比我們的老年基本保障年金 身障年金月頭保的金額等等的我們其實漲幅都是10%以上所以我也想要請教次長我們有沒有可能像八大津貼一樣都是隨著CPI指數來去做一個調整呢"},{"start":10763.618,"end":10788.414,"text":"不然会因为通膨都没有任何的感觉谢谢委员的建议据说我们偏向条例其实根据执法定定它其实是有弹性的譬如说我们现在是8年要发放当然也有委员认为说是不是6年就可以发放还有就是说现在8年发放我们从106年的物价指数到现在已经委员讲到至少都应该要提高所以有人说提高奖金"},{"start":10788.974,"end":10814.085,"text":"我想因為偏鄉條例在這一部分是比較有彈性跟開放的我們是願意來檢討不過這一部分可能也要跟地方政府做一些溝通那我們是不是可以開始來啟動這樣子的溝通呢可以可以嗎我想就是因為因為我們偏鄉條例本來每年都會辦分區會議的這個看有沒有什麼要再精進的要建議的要再修整的那現在委員在教文會裡面提出這樣的意見我們會納入參考"},{"start":10814.813,"end":10823.703,"text":"好那我希望是說針對這一點我們大概是什麼時候可以來追蹤相關的進度就是了解一下跟縣市談論的一個狀況我們三個月三個月"},{"start":10825.54,"end":10845.553,"text":"好 因為我想除了薪資上面因為其實剛剛我想市長也都非常了解有些老師真的是很有心那偏鄉的老師除了是孩子的教學上面他其實也是學生很大的一個情感的依賴所以如果我們可以支持這個老師待得更久的話對於家庭 對於孩子來說都是會非常好的幫助"},{"start":10846.073,"end":10864.939,"text":"可是還有一個部分也要請次長來幫忙就是說他們其實遇到很多的困難因為很多的老師去了偏鄉就像我剛剛講的他處理的問題實在是太多元了不是只有教學上面的問題可是他們常常都是要自己去摸索自己去撐著走那其實在去年的時候呢"},{"start":10865.879,"end":10888.917,"text":"我們也都已經跟這個我們這個許多的民間團體還有師培大學還有教育部一起來討論一起開了一個偏鄉偏遠地區校園教師入校陪伴的座談然後希望讓老師們不要再單打獨透我們可以有更多的支持所以當時呢我們講的就是官員的可敬性還有媒合機制然後以及"},{"start":10891.677,"end":10918.065,"text":"被動式或未申請學校的介入機制這一題其實要講就是說有些時候是老師覺得我很需要可是校長覺得我們不需要所以就變成是老師在現場孤立無援那第三個部分的話是不是有一個陪伴的人才庫可以去支持那目前呢就我所知這個人才庫的清單其實都已經提供了那我想要了解這些事情的相關進度因為時間有限是不是可以提供給我一個進度報告好"},{"start":10919.315,"end":10944.161,"text":"我們今天下班前給委員好 就是針對以上這三點提供給我們一個現在進行的進度報告讓我們可以跟團體一起合作因為我們非常仰賴這些團體再來還有一件事情就是說教育部有講行政減量這個對於學校來說真的非常非常重要但是我們的減量偏鄉學校是否真的有感"},{"start":10944.821,"end":10969.253,"text":"我想了解教育部有沒有去掌握我們現在盤點的150項的行政業務已經完成了104項的調查到底哪些對於偏鄉小校是有感的呢謝謝委員我們大概在2月底以前會將我們去年年底宣布的到底在學校實踐上是不是有感真正落實第一個"},{"start":10969.853,"end":10991.502,"text":"所以二月的時候我們就會統計偏鄉喔不一定進行統計怕統計又影響他們又要行政的負荷我們會用我們的方法了解這些項目真的有沒有落實讓老師有感這第一點第二點是在有關項目上例如我舉個例子同樣的內容同樣的人 承辦人我們不要再重複調訓他"},{"start":10993.082,"end":11012.095,"text":"第二点有一些可以用线上系统的不要总是用纸本报公文像这一些都很明显的我们希望在落实上真的看到这些东西坦白说以我们自己的观点来看的时候对于一般学校可能会是非常有感但是偏乡学校可能还是会有一些更独特的他一人兼多职了"},{"start":11013.116,"end":11040.315,"text":"對 因為堅持的部分是他們更有感的部分所以我想這個部分我們是不是因為時間到了我們會後我們約個時間來詳細的討論那是不是從這些他們所需要的行政減量來去協助這樣他們才會真的有感謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員還有關心到偏鄉的行政減量部分都是很細緻的做法那官員請回座好 現在請林佩祥委員質詢"},{"start":11051.769,"end":11075.324,"text":"好謝謝主席有請次長有請次長林委員好次長我們今天談的是偏遠地區學校教育發展條例那當初這個立法的目的是為了確保孩子不應交通生活機能涉及條件不足而失去所謂的公平所教權但是我想先請教一個根本的問題"},{"start":11076.587,"end":11101.761,"text":"目前偏远学校的认定是否过度僵化是否能停留在传统偏乡的想象呢因为根据第四条的定义偏远地区的学校是指因交通文化生活机能数位环境社会经济条件等其他因素导致教育资源不足所以说公立高中高级中学以下的学校"},{"start":11102.561,"end":11118.304,"text":"照理来讲这是一个功能性条件式的认定并非单纯看县市或地理位置但是回到我是基隆的选区那回到基隆时期状况基隆市目前已经没有任何一所学校被列为偏远地区学校"},{"start":11119.125,"end":11140.683,"text":"但是最近這8年來已經有太平、上智、粵梅國小因為學生數過低而停辦而八堵、上仁、馬林國小則經歷轉型之後才可以存續其中馬林國小目前的學生數只有90多人地處山區 交通不便 生活機能有限所以這邊就要請教次長"},{"start":11142.845,"end":11166.017,"text":"像基隆这类非传统偏乡县市但实质上存在教育资源弱势的区域学校是否有任何替代性或补充性的支持机制呢对我想各种这个偏乡条例当然它有定它认定的那个指标它其实是有在做滚动性的修正就是说从这个偏乡条例上路之后到现在呢"},{"start":11166.297,"end":11186.374,"text":"任定的指標也從9項調整為16項委員所提的說像基隆也不是只有基隆市嘉義市新竹市包括台北市目前都沒有這個定義下的偏鄉學校但是如果比較屬於像有一種叫做非山非市它是屬於它不是偏鄉但是它也是屬於這種"},{"start":11187.855,"end":11204.429,"text":"學生人數少然後資源比較少的部分其實我們在飛山飛市上面的補助也是有一些補助的計畫所以這邊是可以來申請的包括一些師資或者學生方面設備上都有地方政府可以依據那樣子的計畫來申請我們會"},{"start":11206.511,"end":11223.579,"text":"又先合語謝謝市長那我也想請教說教育部是否願意研議說加入教育資源弱勢的區域的分級支持制度不是只有列入或不列入的而分發呢我想我們那個條例上路之後事實上也跟地方政府也會半分區座談"},{"start":11224.119,"end":11240.057,"text":"那可能是因為基隆市它就沒有偏鄉學校所以我們大概在開類似的會議的時候比較聽不到他們聲音那委員有在關心其實也可以鼓勵基隆市政府也可以將區內比較屬於類似的看有沒有哪一些比較可以"},{"start":11241.559,"end":11268.315,"text":"有一些具体的一些数据的一些指标我们可以把它纳进去就是说没有纳进去刚才有提到它不是偏乡条例所规范的学校但它是属于非山又非市就是说它也不像市区学校这么有资源或者说它又不是在山上偏远的地方它可能属于在海边基隆有一些海边它可能比较偏它需要一些资源我想这部分我们会来跟地方政府一起来协助"},{"start":11268.775,"end":11294.187,"text":"好 未来我会积极跟信用市政府来跟我们教育部来去做一些协调或者一些整合那再来我想要谈到失职问题老实讲刚刚已经有很多委员提到了不过在少子化跟大缺失大缺工大缺失现在什么都缺的背景之下偏远地区首当其中但是我也必须在这边提出来台湾其实不是没有失职是制度留不住人"},{"start":11294.947,"end":11315.235,"text":"根據114年8月開學之前我們全國中小學原本還有差不多1430位的代理教師缺額但是到8月28號統計的時候全國公立的國民中小學的3300校的代理教師缺額差不多412名比8月25號的1430名已經降低七成"},{"start":11321.337,"end":11347.056,"text":"老實說這個讓人家有點疑惑啦學校整整在兩個月暑假之間反覆徵柴始終騙不到人的職缺如何在開學閒三天就能夠迅速補齊如果問題真的能夠這麼快速解決的話為何前線的學校長期承受人力壓力還存在當缺失的數理變成帳面化數字的變化的時候那偏鄉教育需要的恐怕我們還沒有被制度給證實到"},{"start":11348.497,"end":11367.154,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們一般學校的老師的那個簽調大概七月是處理正式老師那八月就是正式老師不足了他才開始去尋找這個代理教師那其實八月二十二你說那二十四號二十五號公布的那些為什麼會那麼多突然間變少是因為他的程序中"},{"start":11367.914,"end":11375.68,"text":"所以他後來聘任完成他趕在9月1號8月底以前聘任完成所以他就會急速下降3300所那剩下300多位200多位那這個現象其實這個只是是歷來是差不多這樣並沒有特別嚴重"},{"start":11383.126,"end":11401.214,"text":"老師說我們都知道說現在老師尤其在偏鄉除了教學之外還要兼行政跟校務那他們的實際工時其實超過8個小時就算有加給其實也難以反映說真正的負擔那我最近知道是說目前對於缺失問題"},{"start":11402.134,"end":11419.319,"text":"那政府采取的态度是放宽教师资格跟偏任标准只求有人能上课那这样会不会对于我们偏乡的孩子们这样的政策改动会不会造成二次的伤害呢我想最近这两三年整个教师的生态有一些改变"},{"start":11419.719,"end":11441.517,"text":"譬如說代理教師他的那個給薪的原額變成全薪那他聘任的成本跟正式的老師差不多所以現在地方縣市政府大量開缺包括偏鄉地區也是一樣所以我們在這個偏鄉條例107年上路之後我們剛才也有統計也跟委員報告了到113年的時候它的流動率大幅下降"},{"start":11442.097,"end":11450.544,"text":"其實是有的這統計的數字看得出來它當然它的這個代理教室的比例也從大概平均三成左右降到25%左右跟一般"},{"start":11451.536,"end":11476.428,"text":"学校的代理教师的比例13到18%慢慢在接近他是有一些改变的但是还有不足的委员关心说还有很多学校特殊的个案里面还是会有很多不足像刚才委员提到的像行政人力上他小校他要兼很多工作那事实上我们也因为这样偏乡条例里面设计有区域教育支援中心我们每年大概每一个支援中心大概就是一个国中几个小学我们以那个"},{"start":11477.208,"end":11503.027,"text":"很多縣市政府都以國中為一個單位設立一個區域教育支援中心為什麼 那個是一個任務編組就它可以同時整合這些國小老師的一些行政事務來支援那我們對偏鄉條例通過之後我們對這些區域教育支援中心的一年大概也補助400萬到600萬那個人力是可以來調配給這些小校來運用來解決他們這個行政負荷過大的問題"},{"start":11504.208,"end":11518.124,"text":"其實為什麼一直提到教師這一點就是我個人認為說偏鄉教師的工作負擔跟制度的設計其實對他們對於不管是對老師還是對受教者也好其實相對不利的"},{"start":11518.865,"end":11539.477,"text":"如何能夠保持住品質但是如何能夠讓制度繼續維持下去而且甚至說把一些我們看到的一些比較不足的地方透過這樣的制度改善能夠補齊我想這就是我們教育部的新政權委員關心的方向跟我們現在偏鄉條例設立之後我們很多委員關心的這個方向是一致的我們也是朝這個方向"},{"start":11540.077,"end":11564.535,"text":"不要因为这个小校偏乡交通不利或者是这个未知的关系让这个孩子的学习受教训受到影响甚至还有一些数位资源的导入等等这些都是时间不够不然的话我其实准备要问谢谢委员关心但是我认为说目前的制度那有种是并没有来得好只是说尴尬的点是说偏乡的孩子们他们是天生的弱势"},{"start":11565.275,"end":11590.718,"text":"其實我們這點大家都覺得很可惜我們其實能夠的話我們把制度修好一點然後希望教育部可以多照顧一點偏鄉謝謝委員關心我們條例上路之後111到114年大概開了23場的偏鄉分區的會議大概聽不同的學校不同的教育團體我們也聽取他們的聲音然後能改善的我們就立即改善沒有辦法改善的我們也會想辦法"},{"start":11592.64,"end":11605.749,"text":"繼續來想辦法來協助地方政府對於偏鄉學校的資源落差人力不足來做一些補強的動作謝謝委員的關心 謝謝好 謝謝市長好 謝謝林佩祥委員 歡迎請回座好 請吳佩義委員質詢"},{"start":11623.431,"end":11626.717,"text":"謝謝 我請教育部商量萬間市長好 請市長吳衛仁好"},{"start":11631.7,"end":11658.506,"text":"市長好我想全國的教師都非常的關心我們教師的權益那不只是教師這也是家長跟學生所關心的因為教師的權益有得到保障也就是我們的教學品質有得到保障這也是為什麼過去從2016年到現在10年之間軍公教的薪資調整我們一共調了4次"},{"start":11660.186,"end":11668.692,"text":"在小英前總統任內調了三次去年賴清德總統也調漲了3%這十年來我們加總是增加了14%"},{"start":11670.936,"end":11698.287,"text":"那過去2008年到2016年之間只增加過一次但是我認為這個還不夠未來我們也應該要隨著我們的物價調整社會的狀況持續的來給我們軍公教的薪資來調升那除了薪資以外其實在教學的現場教師有很沉重的負擔所以說有教師逃亡這樣子的一個問題都存在"},{"start":11699.227,"end":11703.731,"text":"所以我們在 上一次我在院會總質詢的時候也當場來跟院長請益 也跟院長討論說我們針對我們基層教師在終點費 在導師費 在行政加給上面希望要給他們提升所以我們教育部這一次做的調整提升也就是針對終點費導師費 行政"},{"start":11723.57,"end":11736.54,"text":"都來有所調升但是有收到很多教學現場的回饋也是今天要跟你們討論的第一個就是終點費我們的幼兒園的教保員"},{"start":11737.765,"end":11765.301,"text":"也非常的辛苦所以之前也有跟你們建議說導師費除了教師要來提升我們教保員導師費也要來增加這個我們什麼時候可以來實施上路啊對 剛才其實那個委員也有問我們會在這個月前開始盤點整個修要點完之後一樣追溯到這個去年的9月1號你們這個教保導師加急跟教保費的要點上次修113年嘛所以我們現在會再修訂對不對"},{"start":11766.381,"end":11768.263,"text":"所以我們預計教保員的導師費提升1000要點修完馬上就要來上路這個請你們要盡快然後再來就是我們的行政"},{"start":11781.091,"end":11798.446,"text":"獎金啊 你們是用行政獎金但當時我跟院長拜託的是行政加給所以我想要請教為什麼我們要另外去設一個行政獎金這樣的制度然後呢又設置了一個50班以上我跟50班以下你加的錢還不同1000 1500校長2000這個為什麼要設這個門檻"},{"start":11806.099,"end":11831.837,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們這個要幫行政人員加急來解決行政大逃亡這樣子的一個現象其實從大概好幾年前就開始兩三年前大概兩年前我知道說其實教育部就一直在跟行政院方面沒錯因為市長您過去也是民意代表你也很常在校園裡面走動你非常了解教學現場我們現在全國50班以上的學校有幾層"},{"start":11833.939,"end":11853.851,"text":"453校這佔了幾成一成多代表你全國有幾乎九成的學校他是50班以下的50班以下我們也是有加級就是說其實我們剛剛委員其實問到一個很重要的我們一直比較沒有辦法突破的就是說"},{"start":11854.671,"end":11871.334,"text":"其實行政院這邊站在整體國家整體性的考慮他會覺得行政家級可能不是只有學校裡面有教育現場需要這個可能有很多其他的單位他們也會是不是也可以比照你教育部如果這樣可以的話學校可以的話那我的單位也很忙這個"},{"start":11872.495,"end":11890.801,"text":"依據我對於教學現場 僅限的了解我認為50班以上跟50班以下的教師他的行政工作其實都是沉重的我們既然要給教師行政我們認為教師應該專職嘛既然要有行政工作我們要給他們加級的話"},{"start":11893.602,"end":11910.896,"text":"我覺得不要去設這個KPI我還要看你工作表現教學表現的品質是我們最重視的所以我們不希望行政案造成他們教學的負擔這個我希望你們可以持續去跟持續去跟基層討論獎金是有彈性的我們可以來討論持續去跟基層討論好不好因為你設了50班的門檻50班以下全國九成的學校都50班以下剛才也有委員提到說校長這邊好像也有一些請持續跟基層討論好再來還有一點因為我們這次有回溯"},{"start":11923.406,"end":11948.831,"text":"這都是美意嘛因為我們希望既然要增加前面的也要把它加進去但是呢基層也反映也擔心啊會不會有增加很多行政的工作來我請教未來這個地方政府要交什麼資料給你們教育部可以拿到這個回溯的補助其實我們撥款重減要交什麼資料嗎重減嘛對不對重減那地方政府要學校交什麼資料給他們你們知道嗎"},{"start":11949.611,"end":11968.799,"text":"不知道所以呢這個不只是尊重拜託教育部要去跟地方政府也要求地方政府對學校的心思關於回溯這一點的行政也是從寬從簡只要是合法的可以認定的從寬從遠來認定這拜託你們要去跟地方政府做後續的關心"},{"start":11970.08,"end":11986.749,"text":"那這個關於偏鄉教師有一個事情要跟市長討論因為去年的時候有開過公聘會那我看到有學者給我們建議就是說其實很多學術界都希望對我們的偏鄉教育來做研究也是希望來幫忙我們教育部找出問題解決問題但是發現到我們對於偏鄉的這個資料第一個"},{"start":11992.032,"end":12019.72,"text":"資料庫不夠公開很多資訊找不到然後第二個沒有系統性的例如說我們對偏鄉的這個調查其實資料很多但是分散的我們偏鄉條例第19條就有明定這個這是你們的法定業務應該要來編列預算辦理調查研究作為政策調整的參考我請教一下我們現在對於偏鄉的教師的這個流動這個數字我們是多久做一次"},{"start":12021.021,"end":12042.817,"text":"我們每年都有 其實教育部的統計所以剛才我提到一個數字就是我們的流動率我們每年都在調查每一年來做調查我們才知道說我們偏鄉條例上路之後我們挹注資源增加援額然後鼓勵地方政府聘正式援額現在一連串的措施下來這些資料在哪裡可以看得到我們可以有沒有公開我們沒有"},{"start":12047.175,"end":12063.804,"text":"這個學者的反應是沒有公開那連做研究的學者教育專家都找不到了何況是大眾所以呢給你們一個具體的建議就是關於偏鄉這個教育的研究第一個要穩定然後你要持續性的做"},{"start":12064.324,"end":12084.557,"text":"然後要公開我們現在也是支援持續性的投入這個很重要所以我們也看到那個流動率持續性的在下降對然後呢在這個當中我們也看到了就是因為看你們的數字嘛我們在2017年的時候修偏鄉條例的時候當時有一個重點設計了偏鄉專聘教師這個專聘教師的數字現在是多少"},{"start":12085.592,"end":12111.959,"text":"零人嘛這是你們統計的數字因為當年在修的時候我也是委員對沒錯那麼過去這個專聘教師要由誰來招募是由地方政府還是學校主要是由地方政府來招聘嘛來從我們訂定條我們修了這條之後地方政府招聘了幾次大概有用了大概這麼多年來大概只用這個用了12個人"},{"start":12113.888,"end":12129.793,"text":"只招聘了12次只有新北跟嘉義有招聘過而且招聘之後報到的人數更是個位數其實後來其實他們都比較傾向用正式的缺正式缺還是比較有誘因"},{"start":12130.565,"end":12155.548,"text":"但是我們當時這個制度的設計也是希望在偏鄉地區的代理教師一個吸引他們第二個是給他們更好的環境所以我要講的就是說從你們在對統計的數字其實是可以給我們的政策的改進改善做很大的參考的所以第一個希望我們對偏鄉教育的這些調查"},{"start":12157.77,"end":12173.303,"text":"這個要確實然後資料要公開第二個我們針對這個制度要依據你們調查的結果甚至學術界他們如果有調查的成果我們可以拿來做參考持續的去改進像這個偏鄉的專聘教師我想"},{"start":12174.844,"end":12197.578,"text":"這個0人那市長應該是不滿意啦要怎麼樣來改進呢改進就變正式的現在正式的缺比較多那是一個方式但是偏鄉專聘教師這個制度如果要繼續存在的話一定要改善嘛不可能連年都是0人嘛這個要請你們持續的來去有些制度上可能也與時俱進比如說他可能在現在的用這個方法的比較少"},{"start":12198.539,"end":12212.409,"text":"那我們可以再精進再想如果有需要的話我們會再去改善他的那個誘因讓他能夠進來制度裡面變成解決問題的方法所以要精進嗎好謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝吳佩奕委員那官員請回座請林一錦委員質詢"},{"start":12234.481,"end":12237.842,"text":"謝主席 有請張廖次長好 求請次長委員好次長好本席現在還是要鄭重呼籲拜託在野黨不要再擋總預算現在已經一月了總預算案都還沒有開始審查連附委都沒有這個嚴重影響了這個新的一年度的新興計畫執行"},{"start":12259.989,"end":12285.884,"text":"那上次教育部有到財政委員會去報告總預算案未審查的狀況評估喔那新興跟新增的計畫預算高達31億元那包括好幾個項目喔那我們都知道孩子在校園的安全也好新興科技的人才培育一刻都不容延擋所以想要請教次長如果總預算真的還沒有沒有審查過關那麼教育部有沒有減緩衝擊的計畫"},{"start":12287.865,"end":12306.158,"text":"那教育部有沒有什麼話要跟在野的立委來呼籲不要擋學生們的預算好 謝謝委員關心其實剛才也有委員關心類似的問題那麼也替教育部想了一個辦法叫做這個第88條那剛才我問了相關的那個法治單位他們是說"},{"start":12306.999,"end":12318.997,"text":"是适用于基金跟附属单位预算就是说重大的新型项目可以经立法院同意或动之这个部分是指基金及附属单位预算如果是可以包含本预算的"},{"start":12320.625,"end":12340.302,"text":"这个新型计划当然我们是非常乐意可是法治上看起来目前是没有办法所以我们当然是呼吁说这个教育部分党派而且是从北到南几乎每一个县市都一直在跟教育部希望能够中央投注资源能够政策上能够支持所以我们一直希望说这个预算还是要来审查"},{"start":12341.283,"end":12358.459,"text":"不要說都完全不審查這樣我們當然在很多新興計畫的那個執行上面會有一些效率的問題跟急迫性不足的問題是 我們看新興計畫有一項就是這個豬苗地區高級中等學校的校舍計畫"},{"start":12359.58,"end":12385.461,"text":"所以我在這裡也要趁這個機會想要跟新竹縣的楊文科縣長新竹市的高鴻安市長苗栗的中東景縣長希望竹苗縣市首長回去跟黨內溝通不要再卡總預算本席雖然是台南的立委可是我也身為教育文的一份子我要為全國的學子來爭取最好的環境所以真的再次呼籲在野的立委不要再卡總預算"},{"start":12386.161,"end":12408.727,"text":"另外在上週就是2025的最後一天很開心看到教育部從善如流宣布了高中以下的導師費調漲到4000塊那終點費有調漲20%那還有就是加發了行政工作獎金這是本席跟很多委員們長期爭取的那總算有了成果"},{"start":12409.167,"end":12431.326,"text":"那國教署有說前述的調整經費全年度將達到43億這個7千萬元那本席好奇的是總預算如果被藍白帳卡住那導師費跟終點費調漲的經費會不會受影響那目前這筆經費就我所知道是中央跟地方要各負擔50%嘛"},{"start":12433.027,"end":12447.649,"text":"那中央跟地方你們如果在這個被卡預算的前提之下那中央跟地方的裁員分別要從哪邊的裁員來指引我想這是在人事費啦所以大概不會受到影響這部分不會受到影響"},{"start":12448.813,"end":12476.026,"text":"這是人事費不會受到影響我們有人事費裡面雲之所以不錯那未來就是說50% 50%這個是維持這樣子還是說你們還會再持續跟地方來溝通調整這個比例去年11月25號有找地方來談但有些縣市認為說中央要全員補助有些縣市是認為可以追溯到9月1號有些縣市認為說明年但最後大家同意認為說最大公約"},{"start":12476.566,"end":12493.177,"text":"這樣子一個調整其實是有利於基層教師的士氣以來解決一些過去沒有調到的這終點費的問題所以基本上大家都同意那後來因為看起來多數的縣市都同意追溯到去年9月1號所以我們就"},{"start":12493.757,"end":12508.923,"text":"好 就回溯到9月1號對 我們就都補助50%因為現在財範法後中央其實能夠補助的財源也有限所以我們必須要去說服地方一起來做才有辦法讓這個美意能夠落實好 那"},{"start":12510.584,"end":12525.171,"text":"現在高中以下的導師費有調漲那可是幼兒園的教保員在第一線照顧幼兒園其實他工作壓力也很大那教保費也只有2000塊那昨天有看到國教署說這個要比照就是要加1000塊那現在是說那私立會一併調整嗎"},{"start":12530.345,"end":12551.119,"text":"施力的會啊 會啊 會 會 OK 好那還有幼兒園的行政工作也很繁雜啦那有沒有也來調整這個所謂的工作獎金的規劃對 施力幼兒園的教法會這邊會啦 會調帳啦那工作費的部分我們行政工作獎金也要比照有這樣的調帳規劃嗎對 以公立的為主啦"},{"start":12553.4,"end":12573.875,"text":"OK 好 這樣非常好那另外回到這次的主題除了這個硬體資源跟偏遠地區的學校最大的難題當然就是人雖然科技發達那很多其實現在也很多之前都用所謂的直播遠距教學可是回過頭來講其實孩子最需要的是人的陪伴"},{"start":12574.575,"end":12596.244,"text":"很多偏鄉地區的文化資源相對很匱乏家庭功能也不彰所以很多孩子的爸媽是在外地工作那祖父母在村落部落裡面也有工作要做所以學校真的扮演一個很重要的角色它是一個偏鄉的支持重要的網絡好 那我本席認為偏鄉的師資的培育跟留任它有一個重要的核心需要我們來加強 那就是"},{"start":12597.344,"end":12621.267,"text":"如何引導老師在偏鄉地區有歸屬感跟自我認同感那本席在一個月刊就是台灣教育評論月刊上有看到一段話我很認同他說有精靈內在歷程轉換將認同自己是屬於該教育環境的一份子才會在偏鄉教育上生根那不論是在學校 在學生"},{"start":12622.228,"end":12651.908,"text":"身上生根讓教師在偏鄉教育不只是教書那現在的初任老師他其實不論是教真的分發或者是公費生去分發的其實初任教師到了偏鄉都才開始學習怎麼當一名老師所以偏鄉的生活跟都會去的生活又差異那麼大那所以要花很多的時間跟力氣來學習如何適應那偏鄉的生活方式就是說"},{"start":12652.748,"end":12668.599,"text":"可是這個就他的差異這個大怎麼樣學習這件事情在失陪的過程中很少被提及喔所以我想說是不是要在失陪的內容裡面加一些相關的這種內容讓他們認識偏鄉的地區的生活環境"},{"start":12669.279,"end":12694.681,"text":"對 瑋瑜的建議非常好所以我們在114學年度的這個偏遠地區學校學士後教育學問班我們就有協調那個協調會議上我們就有要求開一班的師培大學針對像那個偏鄉有些班級人數很少所以它有一些混零教學的能力規劃或者是差異化的教學或者說一些合作上的學習家庭教育 學生輔導相關的議題都融入課程的規劃"},{"start":12695.362,"end":12719.038,"text":"所以这部分我们就是有在有听到声音所以我们有把它规划在里面像初任老师也一样有些到偏乡去他可能去了以后跟他想象完全都不一样所以我们这部分大概这个新传教师的那个制度上也会对这个到偏乡的初任教师能够多给予这个协助好那"},{"start":12720.499,"end":12735.216,"text":"好 那我們再想 很多初溫老師他到偏鄉那因為偏鄉人手少所以他被迫要接手行政工作所以行政工作的繁雜這個我就不用再贅述好 那現在就是說那怎麼樣 有什麼方法讓"},{"start":12736.978,"end":12752.451,"text":"就是出任教師到偏鄉然後就任行政這個議題我知道現在好像有一個叫做區域教育資源中心來協助那現在你們實質上的觀察有實質緩解老師對行政接行政的狀況嗎"},{"start":12753.972,"end":12779.802,"text":"就是我們那個區域教育資源中心在各縣市政府設立我們也都會每年它設立之後每年大概給400萬到600萬的補助大概就是一些人力的調解但是它是一個任務編組就是它大概是以一個國中學區為範圍有時候兩個 有時候一個它就看它設的密度其實基本上就是要用一些人力來分攤或者說幫它來做一些行政上事務的一個統籌 協調 整合"},{"start":12782.083,"end":12797.061,"text":"讓他不要一個學校就辦一個 一個學校辦一個每個學校都要辦 其實這樣蠻累的他那個區域教育制的東西就是當時偏鄉條例設計的那個這個就是要來解決這些小學校的一些行政人力不足的問題"},{"start":12797.962,"end":12820.654,"text":"那當然現在上路之後各個縣市實施的狀況我們會再去跟地方政府協調在人力的這個協調上面行政的減量上面是不是能夠達到原來當初制度設計的效果它可能有效果但是有沒有辦法充分來解決這個我們也會在未來的會議上來聽取地方這個現場的一些意見好"},{"start":12823.175,"end":12836.03,"text":"就是針對偏遠地區學校教育發展條例我想這個我們很多委員都有提版本像這個民眾黨他有提說要修改第16條"},{"start":12837.952,"end":12865.625,"text":"那第七條要那個中央主管機關要補助地方主管機關要開設什麼專聘教師認證研習課程那還有像說有國民黨委員提說要修訂16條要這個什麼偏遠地區學校要結合非營利組織大專院校跟社區資源提供學生學習活動跟兒童課後服務等等好 這些經費他們都規定要中央全額補助重點在這裡所以"},{"start":12867.206,"end":12891.745,"text":"請教教育部就是說你們重整各委員的這個修法版本有沒有盤點需要負擔多少經費其實我們在看各委員版本的時候有些其實已經可以再做的它只是需要透過一些行政措施就能夠達到的我們是不建議一個大規模的修法那有些當然委員的版本講得很有道理那其實就是一條兩條我們"},{"start":12893.166,"end":12919.315,"text":"会尊重委员的意见那至于增加中央支出的那个部分现在因为财法法的关系我觉得在使用每一中央在做政策执行的时候其实都希望跟地方政府能够合作像这次那个导师费的终点费其实也是希望地方政府能够一起来做那后来得到支持我们才用各50%也才让这个每一政策能够落实所以将来修法我们是希望"},{"start":12920.115,"end":12936.611,"text":"如果有這樣子的版本我們必須要跟地方來商量這部分畢竟這個高中以下的學校多數的主管機關是在縣市政府沒錯我們在雖然說委員的這個版本是寫要中央全額付負擔可是我們到時候還是可以來談"},{"start":12937.392,"end":12966.213,"text":"即使在财劃法划了4165亿给地方之后我们对于偏乡条例所衍生的相关的费用到目前为止是由中央圈的来负担是没有错就大概每年40亿左右那如果还要再增加的如果未来在财劃法这样的一个情况下如果还要增加的话我觉得也要去衡量一下整个财务的支出是否有没有能力地方政府愿不愿意配合我们可能大概将来会一直全额负担的这种现象可能会"},{"start":12967.074,"end":12977.145,"text":"沒有那麼容易 坦白講好 謝謝 謝謝次長 謝謝主席好謝謝林益錦委員質詢光源請回座"},{"start":12979.997,"end":12999.298,"text":"目前的現行條文的部分本黨應該沒有在其他的部分沒有到16、17我們本黨只有第7、第8條那本來的現行的部分就是中央的有全民取消那就這樣子 我知道所以我只是說要做一下在主持上面一個說明那我也是很感念說教育部在現在中央的行政跟立法"},{"start":12999.778,"end":13027.942,"text":"有在才化法上面有一些爭議的時候這是他盡可能能再去做他做的事情跟地方政府來協調我覺得這個實事求是的做法是非常好的啦這樣子好那現在呢請中嘉賓委員來質詢時間4分鐘主席在龍岩先進列席的政府相守網官員會長工作夥伴記者媒體女士先生有請教育部張料次長請次長"},{"start":13030.585,"end":13057.813,"text":"莊委員好次長好 次長八年前我們都在教文委員會這個地方我們共同推動了偏鄉教育條例的這個制定那我想經過這八年來我們都看到了不斷地在修我是肯定教育部對於偏鄉教育的重視那今天這麼多的條文其實都無外乎從待遇從教師制的培育從各項調動的條件盡量能夠滿足教師也減少他出任教授的負擔這些我們都支持"},{"start":13058.433,"end":13070.218,"text":"但是有一些事情是我們教育部可以做的就是說其實我很同意等一下…我很同意林益勤委員說的"},{"start":13071.684,"end":13099.551,"text":"孩子 學生需要真人的陪伴但是真人除了物質上的需求之外他需要精神的鼓勵有一個不用花太多預算教育部可以來做的我拿這個東西來給大家參考一下這是在偏鄉長大的孩子到了恆春工商之後他所展現出來他那樣的一個氣質那樣的一個品德我們來看看偏鄉的孩子在資源有限情況之下他培養出什麼樣的特質"},{"start":13104.673,"end":13133.33,"text":"我是恆春工商製薯科張柏臻幫助他人不是為了利益而幫助其實有沒有得這個獎有沒有要這個獎我都會去幫助同學然後每次的幫助我都不求回報只是想要幫忙把事情做完拿到這個獎金我會分一點給前進隊的隊員們因為我們去比賽有很多資金都不夠都是老師幫忙出的所以我拿到這些獎金我會分一點給老師"},{"start":13135.287,"end":13154.265,"text":"然後還會分一些給班上的同學因為有他們也才會有我好 副市長你猜猜看他拿到多少獎金他要分給同學 還要分給老師因為老師帶他們去那邊比賽都要自己墊錢你覺得他拿到多少獎金大概六千塊"},{"start":13155.6,"end":13172.041,"text":"比他多一点他拿了一万块这是去年在我们屏东针对不分高中职我们请各校推荐利他这个同学在在校的期间内他有利他的精神利他的行为请学校推荐我们去筹了一笔钱每一个人给他一万元"},{"start":13173.127,"end":13188.628,"text":"這位田徑隊的同學他剛剛講了嘛他拿到這一萬元他第一個想到什麼他不是自己全都拿了他要分給誰 分給同學他要分給誰 分給老師有沒有看到偏鄉的教師要自己掏腰包"},{"start":13189.949,"end":13205.946,"text":"所以我是覺得呢我們知道偏向的教師付出很多可不可以教育部思考一下給予偏向的教師跟學子一些特定的獎項來鼓勵他們支持他們這個不用修法教育部可以做嗎委員的建議非常好我們來言喻"},{"start":13206.767,"end":13236.107,"text":"就這樣研議就結束了我希望次長你可以多說一點過去我們在教育委員會共事的時候我們有很多理想但我知道你剛剛講得很對當我們中央的才化法修改後把資源都撥給地方之後地方政府要不要做 做多少我們中央不能勉強但是中央可以怎麼樣可以辦一些類似這樣的激勵 肯定 表揚那麼讓地方政府讓這些偏向教師他得到激勵表揚之後他可以帶出這樣的孩子因為跟人家分享"},{"start":13236.967,"end":13260.48,"text":"資源有限其實不是什麼不是限制重要的在資源有限的地方下願意分享願意共同成長這才是我們教育的目的市長您覺得呢其實現在的獎項裡面也有涵蓋偏鄉的老師或者是一些學生啊比如說那個向思多獎啊或者教育貢獻獎都有但是我知道你講的這個是特別對我想這個是可以來設立來推動啊"},{"start":13263.362,"end":13276.253,"text":"好謝謝教育部的承諾我們希望未來啊我們說在法制面上在預算上在資源上來支持偏鄉教育之外我們希望看到中央拿出具體的行動來肯定鼓勵偏鄉的教師跟學子好嗎好可以好謝謝好好謝謝東嘉賓委員官員請回座現在請鄭天才委員質詢時間4分鐘"},{"start":13298.626,"end":13306.896,"text":"主席有請次長有請張廖市長政委員好 次長辛苦了這個"},{"start":13310.219,"end":13338.979,"text":"援助民族對於教育的提升非常非常的重要因為我們沒有特別的財產然後也沒有特別的父母所以教育是一個非常非常的重要這個教育的提升當然就是教育程度我先讓次長了解一下也讓我們的教育部的同仁了解一下"},{"start":13346.227,"end":13365.334,"text":"這個原住民的學生早期我是找到這個76年其實更早了更早降低入企標準原始總分的25%不是像現在的外加2%沒有只要能夠"},{"start":13367.011,"end":13393.624,"text":"愿意去考就降低入期标准临时总分25%这个是一个早期其实比76年更早因为我是民国61年就念高中了念大学是64年就已经受到这个优惠了那我们原住民学生的升学保障啊"},{"start":13394.298,"end":13416.155,"text":"后来做了修正这个外加百分之外加百分之二外加百分之二但102年我一直在这个要求教育部做调整所以后来有特别明定有部分的科系可以专案调高比例专案调高比例"},{"start":13417.318,"end":13446.799,"text":"当时是谁呢当时是这个台大那个教授叫什么部长很短的时间他很短的时间在教育部当部长但是他做到了但是经过这么多年之后我们看我们近五年大专校园学生出债协力差距原住民跟非原住民"},{"start":13448.474,"end":13476.533,"text":"的差距越来越大107年度是31.9到了113年度差距达到了36.85难以想象所以有两个部分一个就是生血的管道第二个当然就是很多错血为什么会错血就会跟经济有关系经济有关系"},{"start":13478.417,"end":13502.731,"text":"所以本席一再的希望能夠你們再做檢討2%已經實施這麼多年但是我們的差距越來越大是不是能夠再修正你們的辦法全部把它調為外加5%甚至當然我很難期待刪除最起碼全部調高為外加5%"},{"start":13505.199,"end":13523.533,"text":"然后另外一个就是学杂费我们先谈这个好了这个次长可不可以往这个方向我也有这样的建议我们也可以来思考看看不是思考一定要往一定好好的研究好好的讨论为什么评估5%"},{"start":13526.263,"end":13548.108,"text":"因為2%到5%是幅度相當大所以我們要調整要有一些依據來所以這個部分因為剛才講了落差34%點多難以想像吧所以這個部分請教育部好好的那另外就是這個協雜費的這些減免應該要調高112年6月29號行政院公布私立大專"},{"start":13555.649,"end":13580.624,"text":"学校的学杂费非原住民学生减少缴3.5万现在是不是还是这样我们也在评估当然可以有一些更加弱势的或者有特殊状况我们会提高补助包括原民的身份不是 因为这个不分族群的等于是对我们毫无帮助不会不会市长你回去好好因为我们是适用什么"},{"start":13581.482,"end":13603.818,"text":"因为我们是适用的原住民学生就读公私立学专科以上学校学杂费减免固定这个部分我们有另外一个办法有另外一个办法所以我们就没有办法适用那个所以这个部分这个办法从107年修正之后已经8年了"},{"start":13606.079,"end":13627.586,"text":"這些各方面的物價都可以所以這個部分已經8年了該修正了好不好這個部分這個就是也沒有多少學生啊原住民當然學生也不多嘛對不對也不會增加多少錢啊好不好市長我們來評估看看不是評估要討論啊好"},{"start":13630.654,"end":13654.319,"text":"要往這方向去修正了好不好好 我們會通盤的評估8年了 8年了好 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員質詢那官員請回座請羅廷維委員質詢好 謝謝主席有請次長有請次長"},{"start":13663.357,"end":13678.119,"text":"羅永宇好好 次長好次長今天討論平原地區的這個相關條例你應該再熟悉不過因為當年這部專法能夠順利的推動立法您正是其中重要的推手之一"},{"start":13678.88,"end":13691.924,"text":"我想在這個發展條例三讀以前當時偏遠地區面臨的困境不管是學校的教師員額不足難聘還有流動率高缺乏專業的發展機會行政的負擔過重"},{"start":13696.245,"end":13716.735,"text":"優秀的教職人員長期服務和地方的政府教育資源不足當時正是為了扭轉這樣子的一個惡性循環所以才在106年11月三讀推定我們的偏遠地區學校教育發展的條例希望藉由這部專法能夠強化整個學校的教育措施"},{"start":13717.595,"end":13734.46,"text":"寬烈經費彈性運用我們人事包括我們提高教師的福利措施等都是希望能夠解決資源的一個落差首先我想先請問一下次長您從當年的立法委員走到了"},{"start":13735.76,"end":13756.209,"text":"今天已經擔任次長從立法到行政端如何總結這八年的偏鄉條例落實成效從當初理想中的制度設計有沒有執行過程有所謂的偏離實際的推動你覺得遇到的最大的關卡在哪裡"},{"start":13756.949,"end":13774.238,"text":"我想謝謝委員關心我想這個條例當時在成立的時候當然就是要解決偏鄉老師譬如說失智的部分他的培育的品質的問題還有流動率的問題如果從流動率來看我們從教育部的統計裡面我們從107年度當時的國小"},{"start":13778.88,"end":13798.519,"text":"偏遠地區的老師的流動率是2.14%現在是113學年度我們今年度是已經降到1.21%所以有相當的一個幅度2.14%降到1.21%國中的部分在107年度開始實施偏鄉條例的時候是1.92%"},{"start":13800.16,"end":13822.287,"text":"那到113學年度已經降到1.36%也降了大概三成多一定多多少少會有復讐的進步因為它每年移住了40億但我現在問的是您覺得困境呢一定會有困境吧我們當然就是因為偏鄉條例規定就是它要跟地方每三年要做的一個檢討那平常會在地方召開分區的一些座談"},{"start":13823.047,"end":13829.512,"text":"有很多包括在立法院也很關心有很多委員提出有關偏鄉條例執行要落實的問題要編經費的問題不足的問題等等都透過這些會議來反映我們也會針對這些反映來做一些修正"},{"start":13839.699,"end":13867.778,"text":"那包括我们那个施培的方面当时也有提到说很多在偏乡的一些没有教师证他想要去考然后他不利于他进修可是他又想在偏乡所以我们在施培上也多了很多这个培育的一个管道甚至在这个地方也是遍地开发就是说尽量去设连屏东都有市长我这样讲其实偏乡学校的硬体设施这几年有明显的改善了"},{"start":13868.338,"end":13883.929,"text":"這無用質疑可是我們現在要再講的是我們可以看到實際的狀況就是部分偏鄉學校的教師流動率居高不下就我掌握的資料過去幾學年專聘教師的聘任人數還是掛零"},{"start":13886.275,"end":13901.341,"text":"對吧專聘教師是因為當時建議的時候本來是其實針對沒有教師證可是後來我知道訂執法的時候教書團體認為應該有教師證所以我想問一下說後來有教師證的這些本來用專聘他如果做專聘的話他不如"},{"start":13901.761,"end":13930.143,"text":"因为现在大量市缺我就考正式的所以我刚才跟委员解释说他其实如果是正式缺他一定会对他的流动率会降低我知道这第一个第二个就是说代理教师也会减少所以等于代理教师的比例事实上也有减少的一个现象我想动一法牵全身我们大家都知道所以专聘教师现在就是有教师证但是没有取得教证的一个教师大家都知道现在状况都挂离没有人"},{"start":13931.064,"end":13946.222,"text":"那您觉得有没有考虑让专业教师现在买一个年限以后给予正式的教师资格我想当时八年前在立法的时候当然是希望说我们在偏乡的师资尽量能够稳定所以会有不同的禁用管道跟方式啦"},{"start":13946.542,"end":13970.178,"text":"那當然專聘的設計其實也是其中之一那後來他被其他的制度譬如說我們因為拉近了代理教室的一個聘任成本就是我們給他13.5個月然後地方政府或許會認為說那與其讓他流動率聘代理教室讓他流動率變高我就聘正式的所以我們這幾年剛才署長也跟大家講說其實一年大概"},{"start":13971.399,"end":13997.174,"text":"這幾年大概設置了大概兩萬個正式的缺四年兩萬所以這幾年其實對於這個正式缺其實對於偏鄉的那個原額編制不但提升而且呢它的這個正式的那個編制的那個比例也提高我要強調方法很多種啦你們一定也都會彙整啦但是要不要滾動式的修正當然都有滾動式我們希望要有更具體的一個方法出來"},{"start":13997.674,"end":14015.428,"text":"因為目前專聘教師掛鈴這個部分的資料還是讓我們能夠有掌握到所以我希望說教育部這個部分偏鄉教育的關鍵在於人錢可以解決設備的問題但是人的問題目前我們看到了有進步的空間我覺得你可能有誤解"},{"start":14015.888,"end":14039.131,"text":"你說專聘教師大概現在就是要有教師證嘛對不對那我有教師證我為什麼要用專聘教師的制度去拚我就去參加教證我能夠變正式就好了但是我們剛剛說的居高不下他的流動率還是很高嘛能不能把人留下來這是問題所在啊剛才我提供的資料資格是怎麼樣有進步我都知道但是我們還是看到有一些問題部分的學校所以我剛有強調部分的學校"},{"start":14039.471,"end":14056.344,"text":"这部分还是希望能够给予高度的关心地方政府如果有其实在因为他现场在地方政府我们补助譬如说很多那个有关偏乡条例给的那个补助给地方政府我觉得也可以请地方政府去落实有需要我们中央协助这样委员在地方都知道"},{"start":14056.964,"end":14081.631,"text":"就是说我们只要跟我们讲的话不管是设施设备或者是其他的资源我们都会有限这个会后我再跟你讨论因为今天时间有限第二个要跟你讨论的是说这一次教师加急终点费的全面调整以后课后照顾还有寒暑假的学艺活动终点费我认为被忽略我想在这一次我们去年12月31日"},{"start":14082.651,"end":14109.933,"text":"我们为了回应整个教学现场的长期教师荒我们宣布了加给3000变4000兼任待课终点费全面调高20%并且追溯到2025的9月1日起对2024对不起那我想次长这些数字也代表了整个教育部正式承认过去13年国中小的导师加给8年高中导师加给的动长不动"},{"start":14111.573,"end":14117.705,"text":"現象已經確實不合理也承認長期偏低所以教師現場脫節今天終於願意補上這一塊"},{"start":14121.693,"end":14142.77,"text":"雖然很晚但是我們還是總算跨出了但是我要講的是我要提醒這一次政策有一個明顯的缺角就是課後照顧班還有課後輔導的終點費目前一般課後以及代理代課的一個終點費已經全面調升但實際從基層反映的是課後照顧班課後輔導"},{"start":14144.271,"end":14166.96,"text":"卻沒有被納入這一波的調整怎麼辦你要怎麼看那個跟委員報告其實它是根據不同的辦法就是說我們代理代課的終點費算是一個辦法那個客戶照顧是一個辦法那個知己的那個方式那個輔導也是就是說它不是一般的代理代課的終點費所以當然很多委員也有提到說這個部分要不要一併來調整那我想我們會來持續來根據這個反應來做調整您認為要不要調整"},{"start":14172.862,"end":14190.61,"text":"我認為可以做整體的評估因為裡面有涉及到這一次的補助是地方中央各50%那如果要調整的話以現在財劃法之後中央的財力大概也是要跟地方政府尋求共同合作是不是一起來面對客戶照顧的終點費財議這個終點費這個要持續來聽好不好這個"},{"start":14196.953,"end":14215.912,"text":"我们那个资金你知道法制我们一定是按照各种办法来配合终点费代理代科那不可能代理代科终点费叫说才艺的客户照顾都来允这个办理这个可能会有一些用法的问题那如果要调整的话我个人认为说要跟地方政府好好谈因为那都在地方政府"},{"start":14217.629,"end":14233.422,"text":"那不可能全部单我们一定要转达到教学现场的一个状况我想委员来自基层也知道你能够把这个纳入到讨论里面可以我想台中市教育产业工会也跟我们呈请有关儿童课后照顾班国高中的课后照顾班的终点费"},{"start":14234.062,"end":14262.324,"text":"应该原则上要比一般课后教学高20%左右但目前实务上并未同步调整导致做相似的工作的老师人员领到的却是较低的终点费这部分我也希望说这个当然都可以讨论有共识的话我们中央地方一起来协助我想各县市办理国中小的一个暑假学艺就像你刚刚说的学艺的终点费也常出现终点费比一般的课后低这个部分我希望都能够纳入到而且再来我也要"},{"start":14263.919,"end":14288.157,"text":"把這些事情反映給你聽就是我問教育局他說之前你有找他們一起來開會討論說要追溯的部分地方中央各50%對吧教育局給我的回應是說當下的會議其實蠻多各縣市都在反映要他們去承擔這50%他們沒辦法接受但是那一場會議"},{"start":14289.602,"end":14310.769,"text":"搞得像是通知而不是討論所以我問他們這50%你有承認你有願意嗎他給我的回應是說他沒有我不知道你們的溝通到底是怎麼樣的落實那我想我們都希望能夠趕緊將這一個政策落實但是怎麼樣能夠更圓融這部分委員我想跟你報告就是說當時"},{"start":14311.849,"end":14329.224,"text":"二十多個縣市大家一起來談我們已經有提過說其實中央想要做這個政策想要幫忙調高導師費想要提高工作獎金想要提高終點費利益良善希望地方政府一起來做因為利益良善那財化法之後一百一十五年我們也切了四千一百六十五億給地方"},{"start":14329.847,"end":14357.261,"text":"那地方政府的首長更應該重視教育那如果教育單位不願意來負擔我覺得他可以反映但我沒有收到他的反應我目前接到的我們收到的反應是新北雙四都同意但是我要跟你講說新北跟台北都贊成塑製9月1號而且贊成負擔85%不只是新北啦我跟你講如果今天財化法能夠真正落實將所有的這些款項到地方"},{"start":14357.941,"end":14370.039,"text":"我認為地方就應該要有責任幫忙協助負擔 對吧可是到底現在卓榮泰行政院他的態度卓榮泰院長要不要去落實整個才化法"},{"start":14370.836,"end":14394.423,"text":"我覺得大家社會自有公平我們115年是按照原來通過的第一版的財化法我希望能夠看到真正落實財化法去執行那當然我也舉雙手同意如果真的所謂的財化法有落實預算撥給地方地方就應該要來幫忙協助部分負擔好不好台中也多了200多億我希望看到是真的有拿到謝謝"},{"start":14397.227,"end":14417.902,"text":"好謝謝羅庭瑋委員請行政官員回座現在請楊瓊英委員質詢楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在請陳冠廷委員質詢時間4分鐘你好我們請次長請次長"},{"start":14426.935,"end":14445.448,"text":"陳委員好市長好市長這是導師的終點費的調整那我認定這個方向是對的那也提供這些行政工作的獎金的設計邏輯那對一些小校偏鄉學校我倒是有一些不同的看法希望市長能夠來參考一下"},{"start":14446.269,"end":14467.424,"text":"那目前的工作獎金他是分三級那第一級是班級數50班以上的學校校長是2000元然後第二級是班級數50班以上的學校處事主任主長科主任1500那第三級是未達50未達50班的學校那這些一樣剛才提到的這些行政的這些主管大概是1000元"},{"start":14468.525,"end":14479.315,"text":"那我們有注意到說他目前因應各縣市的地域性不同有放寬到全縣國中國小那各學制前5%的學校可以使用第一級跟第二級的算法"},{"start":14480.066,"end":14502.621,"text":"但是拿我們嘉義縣為例,全縣國高中小112所學校的實際狀況來看,目前只有國中一所、國小落所適用第一跟第二級,剩下的135所都是第三級的1000元。我想要請教這個邏輯是什麼?因為大校的主任有很多的協同的組員可以去分工,"},{"start":14503.061,"end":14526.79,"text":"但不到50班的小校我們常常看到是一人多工教學、教務、學務、總務、資訊很多時候都要去兼任那很多學校是人少但是是不但沒有更少甚至更多一個人要兼多個行政職那有些是為了要達到KPI那沒辦法他還要被迫去接受很多像是學習共同體這種大校不太願意去做的計劃案"},{"start":14528.861,"end":14556.008,"text":"這樣子的情況之下小校被鎖在行政獎金的最低級距我是覺得不太合理是不是可以請次長來簡單的回應一下你的看法是怎麼樣我們當然有收到各種不同的意見尤其是剛才有委員提到說校長協會好像也有一些想法我們會持續來聽取現場的意見因為這個部分當然也是在溝通上"},{"start":14556.708,"end":14579.401,"text":"也是经过了一番周折就是说事实上行政加急这个部分本来我们是希望用行政加急但行政院在协调过程里面不同部会有不同部会的立场他们一直希望说公教一致所以学校里面的行政兼行政为什么就有加急其他的单位他们的行政也很忙为什么不能加急"},{"start":14579.781,"end":14594.627,"text":"光是这样的争取我们过去有些校长协会他们也建议说学校也可以简化成行政用三级变两级整个在配置的行政的工作的加级就能够比较好一点我们想尽了各种办法这一次因为"},{"start":14595.927,"end":14618.704,"text":"导师会跟中检会调整的那个需求我们调整之后又担心说导师会拉高之后那个行政跟行政人员之间的差距不够大结果又行政逃亡你又找不到人我当导师就好我干嘛先行政所以我们才会设计至少一千那大效果两千当然这个方案出来之后有一些不同的看法我们"},{"start":14619.99,"end":14636.621,"text":"現在就是說有種我知道有人批評說你們是有種比沒有好但是我們是覺得說任何資源要爭取我們都爭取得很辛苦那當然有不足的跟大家致歉但是我們會繼續努力謝謝次長因為我們任何的調整"},{"start":14637.481,"end":14661.789,"text":"那我覺得都是有幫助到一些人那當然調整之後我們會發現到有新的需要活動來去改變或者是來去增進這些教育資源的部分我們再來慢慢想不過我還是要特別強調就是之前賴總統也提到與其一個縣市往前走一百步不如每一個縣市往前走一步同樣的大校也是一樣與其讓大校更多的資源不如讓更多的偏鄉特別就小校通常都是在偏鄉"},{"start":14662.489,"end":14677.618,"text":"在冰箱我們要給予更多的資源而不是做一個相反的一個配置所以我是希望說未來可以把一人多工或者是人力配置計劃量都把它納入我們的考量下面來去做這個修正好不好市長可以承諾就是來去檢討好不好"},{"start":14678.559,"end":14696.872,"text":"持續來聽取意見好 謝謝我們還是希望更多人留在偏鄉接行證再來補充這個幼教導師費的加錢我們也會我知道你們有說你們會扣去將調整的方向去研議但是我還是要提醒另外一件事情就是非營利幼兒園的教師也不能夠被遺忘"},{"start":14697.552,"end":14720.499,"text":"因為他們的資格在職進修跟教學品質同樣受到教育局的監管 包含立法院也是有這個肺炎力的這個相關的教堂東西 我們會在要點裡面一併來處理 對 不好意思 市長你再講一次我們會在修正要點裡面一併把它 一併把它處理就是不要把肺炎力就是把它分開來好不好不要調整上跟不上公用 我們就是一起把它納入考量 好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝陳冠廷委員 官員請回座"},{"start":14728.383,"end":14742.899,"text":"現在請林倩琪委員發言好 謝謝我們主席劉昭偉我們請次長好 有請次長"},{"start":14747.313,"end":14770.41,"text":"市长好我们今天就这个偏乡地区学校的议题来做讨论本席今天聚焦在整个偏乡地区学校师资结构性失衡这边来跟您做个讨论当然这个问题已经也很久了根据教育第一线实务的统计像桃园新乌乡本席这边先做一个范例跟您做个讨论"},{"start":14772.911,"end":14798.249,"text":"桃園新屋区的大坡国中全校20名教师里面有8名是代理教师比例高达4成9个班级之中有6位导师是由代理教师来担任代理教师也同样兼任行政这不是单一县市的个案花莲我们举个例县府的教育处也统计了去年9月开学的时候仍有11个学校"},{"start":14799.209,"end":14805.114,"text":"共缺了18名代理教師瑞穗國小甚至連四年公告教師的徵選還要拆成40個職缺來發布結果還是招不滿顯示偏鄉跟原鄉的學校都面臨人力斷層的考驗"},{"start":14815.44,"end":14833.545,"text":"那麼這個部分本席認為代理教師在教學現場同樣投入還有專業但是偏鄉地區原鄉卻必須要高度仰賴代理教師來撐起導師行政跟教學核心的工作的時候這已經是制度性的警訊而不是個別學校經營的問題所以偏鄉跟原鄉的這個"},{"start":14837.426,"end":14867.006,"text":"學校長期其實面臨三個結構性的困境第一個是正式教師補不齊留不住第二個是大量代理教師承擔導師跟行政責任但是沒有等值的制度保障跟職癌的誘因第三學生在求學的關鍵階段必須要承受高流動性的師資所帶來的學習斷裂風險這對原鄉的孩子很不利目前地方政府的因應都必須要就是在九任獎金出示加分"},{"start":14868.147,"end":14884.399,"text":"來努力的留住代理教師那本席想要請問教育部那麼中央是不是可以正視偏遠跟原鄉地區正視師資配置長期不足的結構性的失衡 三個問題第一個教育部是不是已經全面掌握全國偏鄉與原鄉地區的學校當中導師"},{"start":14885.56,"end":14913.98,"text":"由導師的與行政職由代理教師來擔任的實際比例然後是不是有設定合理的警戒線或者是改善的目標而不是讓他長期結構產生這樣的變化第二個長期在偏鄉原鄉服務那麼實際承擔導師跟行政工作的代理教師那教育部是不是可以延逸來制度性的調整終點費轉任或年資採集或保障配套而不是仰賴地方政府分散進逐式的一個措施最後"},{"start":14914.58,"end":14934.63,"text":"面對花蓮市縣等縣市連續多次叫針招不到人的現象那你們是不是可以考量整體失智招募的一個重整的策略從編制分發生活支持跟職癌發展的面向來協助偏鄉跟原鄉來留住真正的教師真正來留住教師"},{"start":14936.13,"end":14956.501,"text":"我想委員提出很多建議我們都會列入原意目前其實從偏鄉條例上任之後開始上路之後事實上我們也持續投入了相當多的資源在協助譬如說私資的私資班的開設其實也增加了相當多包括原住民專班也都到處來就是一起來設立"},{"start":14957.461,"end":14977.495,"text":"那這個至於說你也指大學的原專辦還是對大學的那個是指的那個原名專辦不過大概在那個偏鄉要能夠到大學那個可能目前的學校數也不太多啦所以應該在高中以下也請你們這邊多多多多給予一些支持盡量來協助啦然後那個來改善那其實就整體來看還是"},{"start":14978.295,"end":14999.042,"text":"這幾年來的一個實施對於那個教室的流動率代理教室的比例其實都有下降的一個趨勢不是沒有但我覺得那是不是如果有下降的這個部分你們應該有相關的資料統計嘛提供給本席這邊參考當然本席這邊還是提醒比較實質的本席這邊談到的中年費的調整轉任還有這個"},{"start":15001.283,"end":15021.818,"text":"到偏鄉的獅子培育等等本席在提案裡面基本上也是有這樣一個建議所以這是不是請你們整體考量然後重點還是能夠在偏鄉原鄉不僅是資源的投注還有制度性的一個保障措施這點是本席的一個核心價值好 我還有委員的意見我們會納入來一起來整理考慮謝謝好 謝謝林建啟委員官員請回座"},{"start":15031.345,"end":15057.416,"text":"林楚英委員請質詢林楚英委員林楚英委員不在請翁曉琳委員質詢翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員不在請吳思瑤委員質詢吳思瑤委員吳思瑤委員不在請蘇清泉委員質詢蘇清泉委員"},{"start":15062.277,"end":15085.104,"text":"蘇清泉委員不在請顏寬恆委員質詢顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員不在請林思銘委員質詢林思銘委員林思銘委員不在請鄭正前委員質詢鄭正前委員"},{"start":15089.454,"end":15118.527,"text":"鄭正前委員不在請高金素美委員質詢時間4分鐘好的 謝謝趙偉我們有請政務次長張亮萬堅以及署長國教署的彭署長委員好謝謝請兩位質詢好 我們今天要審查的是偏遠地區學校教育發展條例那麼本席也有提案"},{"start":15119.187,"end":15140.754,"text":"那麼我就很簡短的說其實大家都清楚知道當時次長您在做委員的時候我們其實對於原鄉地區的建築法規其實是非常不正義的所以因此我們政府在推動非常多的法規的時候在原鄉就推動不了例如互助式教保中心"},{"start":15141.394,"end":15159.193,"text":"那當時因為這個問題我們來修了這個教保中心第四條的規範這個規範就是原住民地區可以用結構安全來讓政府的政策可以在原鄉地區實行同樣的在原鄉地區我們偏遠地區的學校"},{"start":15159.733,"end":15182.381,"text":"如果要分置分校或分班我們又遇到了找不到合法建築物的困境因此我今天就有提案偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第12條的條文修正我們希望能夠來參照制定教保中心的第4條的規範就是我們用合法的證明文證之前"},{"start":15182.981,"end":15202.762,"text":"我們必須還是要按照直轄市縣市主管機關認定它確定是沒有危害之餘就可以用結構安全界定的證明來替代不知道市長您對這個修法怎麼樣我非常同意委員的看法已經在原鄉地區它的建築物的特性所以其實只要經過我們"},{"start":15204.243,"end":15230.856,"text":"我们跟内政部其实都跟他们沟通说希望能够在鉴定专家学者一个协会鉴定那个结构没有问题无安全无危险之余还有消防单位也去现场看过会看过没有问题他用签证的方式他其实是可以来提供作为一个合法运用的场所这个方向其实我们是支持的那今天好今天内政部也有来对不对我们请内政部的代表上台一下"},{"start":15232.136,"end":15256.883,"text":"我們的次長已經說跟你們有討論過不知道您的看法是報告委員這一部分跟部落互助市的交往機構的條文內容非常相似我們可以併同吳立華委員他有併同12條也有提案我們一起來討論一起把條文整理出來"},{"start":15257.489,"end":15278.144,"text":"沒有 現在我就要跟你確定因為我也有提案所以我現在就是在質詢您您對這樣的看法怎麼樣我們次長的看法是樂觀其成希望跟教保中心是一樣用結構證明安全文件然後經縣市主管機關認定沒有危險之虞就可以用結構安全證明太低了"},{"start":15279.045,"end":15303.204,"text":"您的看法委員的條文是在取得使用執照跟合法建築物證明文件之前用這個來做替代本部是支持的好很好今天我覺得雖然我們恐怕沒有時間來審了下一次要審但是今天我們得到了明確的結論就是不管是教育部也好內政部也好都支持我的提案對吧對"},{"start":15304.125,"end":15330.955,"text":"好非常谢谢我们希望下一次这个召委在排的时候呢我们就不需要再充分的讨论了因为今天已经得到了特别的明确的规范我也请部落的主任尤其是斯马库斯的主任听好了今天呢我们斯马库斯的学校的分校的设立我们的教育部也好或者是内政部也好已经给我们明确的回复了就是呢"},{"start":15331.375,"end":15347.01,"text":"在我們拿到合法房屋證明文件之前只要是經過直轄市縣市主管機關熱定確定是危險無虞的就可以用結構安全鑑定證明代替了"},{"start":15347.39,"end":15370.417,"text":"所以我請司馬庫斯的族人還有校長們還有其他的部落的有意作為這個分校的或者是分班的都可以有一個法令的明確規範了謝謝次長謝謝我們朝這個方向努力也謝謝召委今天排的這個案謝謝好應該的好謝謝高金委員好官員請回座請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":15376.57,"end":15388.321,"text":"邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在請徐欣盈委員質詢徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在"},{"start":15391.428,"end":15405.145,"text":"好今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另外有陳俊宇委員楊瓊英委員徐欣盈翁小玲還有高新素美委員都提出了書面的質詢"},{"start":15406.787,"end":15434.879,"text":"好 那今天的會議我們就做如下的決議報告及詢答就完畢了委員所提的書面質詢與相關資料都列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供的相關資料或為其答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面來答覆那偏遠地區學校教育發展條例部分條文修正草案相關草案就定期來做審查"},{"start":15436.617,"end":15443.665,"text":"好 報告委員會 今天的議程就處理完畢現在散會 謝謝各位尤其是相關部會的官員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}