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大家好"},{"start":1866.004,"end":1888.825,"text":"今天大院司法及法治外交及國防委員會聯席審查陸海空軍刑法第二四條條文修正草案本人代表國防部對各位委員長期關懷國防事務表達感激之意鑒於近年發生現役軍人對敵人表示效忠情勢"},{"start":1890.266,"end":1912.331,"text":"嚴重危害國家安全相關法制卻有檢討及修正之必要本部員推動陸海空軍刑法第二四條條文修正草案加重降敵罪刑責並徵定對敵人為效忠之表示罪其能確保國家安全及軍事利益"},{"start":1913.211,"end":1931.098,"text":"有關法案之說明接續由法律事務司吳司長向各位委員做具體的報告敬請大院各位委員給予支持指導謝謝大家主席各位委員先進"},{"start":1935.55,"end":1960.644,"text":"軍人依憲法第138條及國防法第5條規定應克盡職責確保國家安全之忠誠義務然近年屢發生現役軍人有對敵人為效忠之表示行為為嚇死及嚴懲此類行為行政院及大院委員分別提案修正陸海空軍刑法第24條條文原究各提案說明如下一 行政院版草案"},{"start":1961.943,"end":1989.09,"text":"提高降敵罪之法定刑現役軍人不盡其應盡之責而降敵之行為以違反保衛國家安全之忠誠義務如未盡其應盡之責而降敵其可非難性甚高因加重處罰原將現行第二項降敵罪之法定刑至一年以上七年以下有期徒刑加重為三年以上十年以下有期徒刑必符合罪行均衡原則"},{"start":1991.278,"end":2010.572,"text":"徵定降敵罪預備或陰謀犯之處罰陰謀或預備不盡其應盡之責而降敵之行之者將使戰事造成不利影響有處罰必要源於第四項徵定預備犯及陰謀犯降敵罪之處罰其刑度為六月以上五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2012.017,"end":2037.558,"text":"增訂對敵人為效忠之表示罪為嚇阻現役軍人對敵人為效忠之表示以有效確保國家安全及軍事利益僅依陸海空軍懲罰法對此類行為之現役軍人施以懲罰措施能不足以達到嚇阻與懲罰的效果原增訂第五項以言語舉動文字圖畫電子記錄科技方法"},{"start":2038.669,"end":2065.32,"text":"或其他方式對敵人為效忠之表示者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑二 大院委員之提案大院林英集等十八名委員之提案加重第二項降敵罪之處罰將現行法定刑一年以上七年以下有期徒刑修正為三年以上十年以下有期徒刑第四項增訂降敵罪之預備犯及陰謀犯增訂第五項以言語舉動文字圖畫電子記錄"},{"start":2068.342,"end":2093.33,"text":"科技方法或其他方式對敵人為效忠之表示足以深軍事上之不利益玷污國家榮譽或損害國家利益者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑本部意見委員提案對於敵人為效忠表示之處罰須另符合足以深軍事上之不利益玷污國家榮譽或損害國家利益為要件考量現役軍人不論階級高低"},{"start":2095.11,"end":2120.921,"text":"職務性 職勤 工作特性等一旦對敵人為效忠之表示對於軍隊士氣 部隊紀律與抗敵意識等均嚴重危害軍事上之利益原建議一 行政院版本通過二 大院王定宇等16名委員之提案加重第二項降敵罪之處罰將現行法定刑至一年以上七年以下有期徒刑修正為三年以上十年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2121.761,"end":2140.698,"text":"增訂第三項以言語舉動文字圖畫電子記錄科技方法或其他方式對敵人為效忠之表示者處兩年以上七年以下有期徒刑增訂預備或陰謀犯降敵罪或對敵人效忠表示之處罰其法定行為一年以上五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2141.638,"end":2169.864,"text":"本部意見審酌本條犯罪行為所生之危害及罪行均衡原則建議以行政院版本通過三大院張雅玲等18名委員之提案與行政院版本一致本部競表尊重結語本次陸海空軍刑法之修法目的系補強軍人違反效忠國家義務法律規範展現政府守護國家安全之決心其能盡早完備立法程序敬請各位委員先進"},{"start":2171.318,"end":2186.201,"text":"給予支持並不吝指教 謝謝好 謝謝國防部的報告那接下來司法院跟司法院有沒有補充報告好 先副庭長"},{"start":2191.287,"end":2213.283,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進今天貴院司法及法制 外交及國防委員會聯席審查行政院函情審議 陸海空軍刑法24條修正草案等5案本院奉邀列席報告 深感榮幸首先對於各位委員致力於確保國家安全及軍事利益表示由衷的敬意"},{"start":2213.983,"end":2231.377,"text":"自就以下條文部分報告如下 敬請指教首先對於行政院含情審議的部分24條它甄列第五項以言語 舉動 文字 圖畫等方式對敵人為效忠之表示除一年以上七年以下有歧途刑"},{"start":2232.757,"end":2259.262,"text":"為效忠之表示含義甚廣為避免過度擴張可罰性的範圍肆意爭略勢性犯之要件在對敵人為效忠之表示後爭略足以生軍事上不利益這個部分在行政院研擬階段的時候曾經參採這樣一個見解文字這樣子一個要件才符合立法理由中所謂的保障軍事利益的法義這是第一個"},{"start":2259.722,"end":2275.129,"text":"那倘若這個行為不足以生軍事上的不利益的話則可以考慮說以陸海空軍懲罰法加以規範即可那此等以階層級化的處理方式較符合比例原則以及刑法的最後手段原則故見景在著"},{"start":2275.729,"end":2297.287,"text":"那另外委員王定宇等16人委員張雅玲等18人委員李坤成等19人所擬拒之草案第24條都有相同的一個情形那本院的意見同前 均見請在著那為人尊重這個權責機關以及貴院之意見以及這個政策的決定那這是第一個部分那第二個部分"},{"start":2297.907,"end":2323.346,"text":"就林怡瑾等18人所凝聚的修正草案它第五項的部分雖然有規定適性犯的要件可是它要件中有規範說足以墊入國家榮譽或損害國家利益它這樣一個要件尚非明確 建請釐清並建議於說明欄序名以及歷史以歷史物質運用第三點 關於王定宇等16人所凝聚的草案第五項的部分"},{"start":2323.866,"end":2345.891,"text":"那它規定應該是說前三項應該是第一項到第三項之物也就是說這個前三項的這樣一個預備犯以及陰謀犯處一年以上五年以下有期徒刑那可是我們縱觀整個陸海空軍刑法其他預備犯以及陰謀犯的法定刑例如說同法第18條第一項及19條第一項"},{"start":2349.012,"end":2368.277,"text":"法定刑均與24條第一項的投敵罪同為死刑無歧途刑及10年以上有歧途刑違各該罪之預備犯或陰謀犯的法定刑僅有6個月以上5年以下有歧途刑又同法第22條第一項及23條第一項之罪法定刑均與24條第二項不盡其"},{"start":2370.498,"end":2397.869,"text":"因禁之責而降帝罪同為三年以上十年以下有期徒刑違格該罪的預備或陰謀犯的法定刑均均為兩年以下有期徒刑拘役或薪台幣二十萬元以下的罰金所以修正草案第五項所規定的陰謀犯以及預備犯規定一年以上五年以下有期徒刑其法定刑較其他同法裡面所規定的陰謀犯以及預備犯為重那這個部分是不是符合比例原則及罪行相當原則均漸請再酌"},{"start":2399.61,"end":2428.049,"text":"同樣的問題李昆城等19人所拟據的查案也有相同的疑義意見請再酌其餘部分本院尊重權責機關以及貴院制政策決定以上報告敬請主席各位委員以及各位先進指教謝謝好 謝謝司法院的報告也提出了一些疑慮很值得參考接下來我們是不是也有請法務部有沒有說明"},{"start":2428.953,"end":2431.814,"text":"來 請法務部檢察司 張司長主席 各位委員 各位先進今日奉告列席委員會聯席會議就病案審查行政院函情審議陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案等五案代表本部列席報告並被質詢報告如下 敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2455.564,"end":2469.972,"text":"近年國安案件中有現役軍人對敵人為宣誓效忠之行為違反軍人課金職責履行確保國家安全之忠誠義務對此類行為有完備法制以及強化規範密度之必要以確保國家安全"},{"start":2471.373,"end":2488.533,"text":"行政院含情審議的陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案有鑒於以錄影方式向敵對勢力宣示效忠或簽署抵抗承諾書等行為恐有處罰漏洞因此行政院版草案第二十四條增訂了降敵罪之陰謀欲被犯處罰規定"},{"start":2489.654,"end":2516.402,"text":"提高降敵罪之刑責並增定現役軍人對敵人為效忠表示之刑事責任上開修正草案均經行政院邀請相關部會延商凝聚共事以兼顧人權保障及國家安全及軍事利益本部竟表贊同那就委員所提修正草案立法方向上與行政院版本的草案一致本部也竟表贊同那其餘違法之上的意見均詳如書面以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教"},{"start":2518.993,"end":2529.902,"text":"好 謝謝法務部張市長那接下來來進行提案說明發言時間三分鐘先請張雅玲委員來做提案說明"},{"start":2539.108,"end":2562.599,"text":"好 謝謝主席這次若海空軍刑法第24條的修法重點其實就是要強調現役軍人本來就負有保衛國家忠誠國家的義務任何降敵或對敵表態效忠的行為都必須要嚴肅面對當現役軍人出現對敵人宣誓效忠或用各種方法向敵方作出表態時會直接傷害軍隊士氣部隊紀律戰備與作戰能力"},{"start":2566.201,"end":2590.788,"text":"最後影響的就是整個國家的安全所以這次的修法我有三個重點第一個加重不盡其應盡之責而降敵的刑度若是敵軍來了該抵抗不抵抗該盡力防衛卻沒有盡力反而直接投降這種行為違反軍人的職責因此我們把原本的刑度從一年以上七年以下提高到三年以上十年以下"},{"start":2591.508,"end":2618.785,"text":"第二把這類降敵行為的預備犯陰謀犯也納入處罰因為很多的風險不是戰爭當下才出現而是在戰事發生之前就有人開始串聯計劃準備一旦真的開打後果會更加的嚴重也更難補救所以這次的修法也把預備陰謀納入規範提前把風險擋住第三新針對敵人表態效忠的犯罪類型與刑責"},{"start":2620.888,"end":2645.26,"text":"嫌疑軍人如果用言語動作文字圖像電磁記錄網路方式或其他方法向敵人作出效忠表示單靠陸海空軍懲罰罰處分嚇阻與懲罰效果都不夠所以我們增訂新的規定只要有意讓敵方知悉的效忠表示不論直接或間接都要負刑責處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2646.08,"end":2669.795,"text":"這次的修法絕對不是在限縮言論自由也不是在控管批評政府或表達立場現役軍人不是一般身份本來就負有忠誠與保密的義務當你是刻意讓敵方知道的方式去表態效忠這就已經不是表達意見而是破壞國家安全的行為國家當然必須用刑法做出規範我們希望藉由提高刑責補上預謀"},{"start":2672.156,"end":2682.198,"text":"而預備於陰謀的漏洞並把對敵效忠的表態納入刑法規範之中以更加有效的去確保我們國家的安全以上 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員的提案說明那提案說明及機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄"},{"start":2698.966,"end":2725.58,"text":"提案說明跟機關報告進行完畢我們現在開始來進行詢答今天因為是司法法制跟外交國防兩個委員會聯席共計今天有26位詢答人數比較多而且討論條文的時候都還有機會充分來做表達意見所以今天的詢答時間本聯席會委員就5分鐘"},{"start":2727.581,"end":2737.771,"text":"非本聯席會只有三分鐘 均不再延長那上午十點半截止發言登記現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員來做詢問"},{"start":2761.047,"end":2785.477,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩有請副部長請國安部副部長黃議員好今天喔站在這邊質詢心情非常的沉重軍人當然有對國家效忠的忠誠義務但是"},{"start":2789.591,"end":2817.535,"text":"但是掌握權力的人要問問我們給這些冒險犯難的國軍弟兄給了什麼此時此刻有關於新上位的收入救工作還在進行我相信所有的人"},{"start":2819.437,"end":2847.034,"text":"跟我一樣希望他能夠安全獲救過去這十年每一次我們的非官墜機了不管是社會的輿論還是新聞的報導熟悉的畫面一樣的歷程"},{"start":2848.43,"end":2877.934,"text":"一次又一次的上演F16過去舊的機型我們編了非常高的預算要提升它的戰能在2018年吳彥廷少校在五分三撞三之後2022年陳毅少校又在嘉義墜海"},{"start":2880.027,"end":2900.371,"text":"現在是2026年我們迎來的是一次又一次的悲劇2018年發生了這個事故了以後空軍告訴全台灣人民要檢討要面對在檢討面對的同時"},{"start":2907.557,"end":2935.634,"text":"我們也看到了針對於F16的戰機在美國發展出來了AUTO-GCAS的系統對於陷入Glock的飛行員它所產生實際的效用過去這幾年12個美國的飛行員因為有這樣的系統"},{"start":2937.059,"end":2961.717,"text":"在最後一刻挽救了他們的生命2018年國防部說我們也要裝大家都贊成大家都贊成因為沒有什麼比我們這一些空軍優秀的飛行員更重要的資產"},{"start":2964.861,"end":2993.435,"text":"把飛機救回來都還是其次把我們優秀的飛官救回來才是重點那一年預算追加了106億大家都贊成追加了106億大家都贊成所以要加裝自動防撞系統這是2018年的事情這是2018年的事情"},{"start":2996.144,"end":3024.893,"text":"本來規劃2022年要完成非策2023年要執行安裝這不是我說的這是國防部自己說的結果呢 票票票票2023年國防部提到立法院的解凍報告說什麼2024年要完成安裝測試"},{"start":3027.165,"end":3051.938,"text":"再度跳票再度跳票每到一段時間透過媒體放消息做大內宣非常會什麼時候才願意誠實的告訴國人我們面對的情況到底是什麼"},{"start":3053.917,"end":3080.243,"text":"什麼時候才肯誠實的告訴我們第一線冒險犯案的非官們他們承受的風險是什麼要錢立法院什麼時候少給過什麼時候少給過重點是錢給了錢也付了然後呢"},{"start":3083.16,"end":3099.684,"text":"然後呢我昨天晚上一直在想這整件事到底怎麼發生的因為是深夜可以陪我聊天的只有AI我跟他討論了非常久他最後給我的結論是"},{"start":3111.568,"end":3136.355,"text":"這些行政上面的延宕採購交貨的延宕已經成為我們飛關最大的風險來源副部長 贊不贊成贊成誰該負責任如果你也贊成延宕已經是我們飛關最大的風險下一個問題誰該負責任"},{"start":3142.847,"end":3169.843,"text":"我要跟委員解釋一下有關這個自動防撞系統我們原先使用的F16的兩個兩棟的飛空電腦它是類比式的一個架構我知道在你們給立法院的報告提過我全部都拜讀過了從第一天開始這個問題就提出來了在立法院的解凍報告也都洋洋灑灑寫過了我都拜讀過了"},{"start":3171.209,"end":3183.476,"text":"我都拜讀過了所以我要跟委員報告就是說目前美方他重新開發這個自動式防撞系統他必須要開發類比式跟數位式的非控電腦同步來進行"},{"start":3184.795,"end":3210.019,"text":"那現在他這個開發出來的系統目前在測試當中所以我們跟美軍的BUG兩棟型的飛控電腦他一樣是同步來進行一個班修的一個動作但是目前這個系統我們付了多少錢因為我把預算書啊好幾年的預算書我一年一年翻你們全部都是Lumsum放在一起"},{"start":3211.963,"end":3217.587,"text":"上一次追加是追加100多億這100多億裡面有多少是在付這個防狀系統的聯合報寫以付款零進度聯合報寫的對不對他這個供期是從沒關係啊 先一個問題一個問題來 付了多少錢還是這是國家機密台灣納稅人不能知道我們付了多少錢"},{"start":3243.103,"end":3271.373,"text":"付了多少錢當時第一次是有關全案的金額是1100億針對防撞系統付了多少錢1100億全部拿來付防撞系統不可能吧後續第四次修正的時候是1359億元你還是沒有回答我的問題"},{"start":3273.164,"end":3298.909,"text":"這防撞系統要一千多億 你要嚇死人喔因為它這一個碰撞系統 它包含了好幾個部分我知道嘛 就很多東西 加在一起嘛現在我具體的問這個防撞系統付了多少錢半導飛彈 它全部在這一個專案裡面所以我們現在買東西喔 是都輕輕的做費一次喊價 沒有每一個單項的價目"},{"start":3300.734,"end":3325.259,"text":"我們現在對媒採購已經變這樣嗎東西倒倒的 1000多億每一個多少錢 不知道我們現在對媒採購已經變成這樣了嗎我跟委員在座說明一下有關這一個遠測遙控飛彈跟自動防撞系統它這兩個案子併在一起一共是1402億元1402億 是"},{"start":3329.167,"end":3344.597,"text":"防撞系統多少錢 你現在不知道就對了這是國家機密嗎沒有 這兩個案子當時是一併在這個一千多億建案裡面一併去檢討付了一千多億這包含到我們整個這個遠側的遙控飛彈是在這個同一個案項裡面錢付了"},{"start":3353.615,"end":3379.646,"text":"但是我要跟委員報告因為這一個目前來說這個防撞系統在數位式它目前是沒有問題但是在舊式的兩個兩棟的系統它是類比式所以美軍的國民兵沒有啦我再說一次啦我再說一次啦什麼數位式類比式專業的東西交給專業的人處理納粹人關心的是什麼國軍要提升裝備"},{"start":3381.124,"end":3409.631,"text":"要升級我再講一次立法院該給的錢從來沒有少過台灣的納稅人沒有辦法理解的事情是錢付了東西在哪裡一而再 再而三的延宕錢付得很爽快什麼時候拿到貨不知道委員報告因為現在美軍的類比是他目前的防範系統他也沒有完成"},{"start":3410.771,"end":3431.521,"text":"所以這個系統到底能不能用大家都不知道就對了對嘛 現在我困惑就更大囉針對一個到底可不可以work的系統我們付了一千多億結果這個系統到底能不能work到底能不能轉換成功我們不知道當初是怎麼評估的"},{"start":3433.737,"end":3445.003,"text":"這個部分目前已經有進度了我是空軍的作戰副參謀長在這邊跟委員做說明AUTOGECOS這個系統我們主要分為三個部分第一個是限速要做更新"},{"start":3445.816,"end":3475.329,"text":"第二個部分是飛超電腦的軟體要做提升第三個部分就是實際上這個飛超的電腦這個部分在第一個項目限速的部分我們總共要完成的目標是140架包含在美國路克那邊的Morris基地的14架目前包含美國跟國內已經完成118架的限速的安裝這個部分會在今年全部出來做完成另外兩項的部分"},{"start":3475.809,"end":3500.451,"text":"也就是飛超新的飛超軟體以及這個飛超電腦的部分會在115年的也就是今年的年終第二季的時候美方會提供會完成初步的測試然後會陸續的來實施安裝那目前規劃在最快是在116年的第四季最快是116年的第四季第二階段"},{"start":3501.151,"end":3517.418,"text":"不是 116年的第四季是最快是全部完成最快 2027年的第四季包含這三項的安裝現在你告訴大家的最快的進度是2027年的第四季我再提醒你一次2018年2020年2026年我為什麼講這三年"},{"start":3530.359,"end":3534.523,"text":"我為什麼講這三年兩個罹難了 一個還在找你們每一次的paperwork每一次送來立法院的paperwork容我直說 容我直說寫的我不曉得是太樂觀還是完全沒有信心全部都在含糊其詞"},{"start":3558.12,"end":3582.416,"text":"我們看到的不是一而再再而三的跳票我們不忍的是我們的非官面對今天副部長所承認的最大的風險竟然是我們行政的延宕我不知道沒有講是行政的延宕因為我們在按照沒有關係 採購的延宕也可以看你要用什麼延宕你們今天在我詢答的時間"},{"start":3584.005,"end":3606.245,"text":"沒有足夠的時間好好講沒有關係啊我非常希望今天國防部慎重開一個記者會好好跟全體國人講我們付出去的錢我們付出去的錢這些東西到底還要多久才拿得到好 謝謝黃國昌委員的詢答接下來請羅美玲委員做詢答"},{"start":3623.93,"end":3629.252,"text":"謝謝主席有請國防部中副部長請國防部中副部長郭委員好中副部長好今天呢我們還是要回到今天的主題我們要修正陸海空軍刑法的第24條那當然修法的這個目的是最主要是補足現行法是對軍人忠誠義務的這個刑責的這個規範的不足"},{"start":3653.623,"end":3669.155,"text":"舉個例子像去年台灣高等法院台南高分院有個案子有兩個新一軍人葉新跟蘇信的新一軍人遭到台商黃姓父子的利誘吸收甚至還簽署了"},{"start":3671.056,"end":3675.28,"text":"校中的志願書然後黃姓父子呢犯罪所的共計是171萬6千元然後呢這個越南得款的是21萬元蘇南的是10萬元最後涉案的這個中間人也就是這兩位黃姓父子呢他是依這個國安法論罪科刑可是這兩位信義軍人呢卻是與貪污治罪"},{"start":3693.474,"end":3702.499,"text":"條例來論處也就是違背職務收受賄賂罪來論處也就是說現行的法制對於現役軍人涉入敵對勢力的這個行為他的這個可罰性實際上是還是細於在你有沒有這個對價關係所以如果現役軍人"},{"start":3715.385,"end":3734.152,"text":"像這個敵對勢力表示效忠像這兩位軍人他就簽署了這個效忠自願書可是呢他並沒有收受這個金錢的話或者是其他具體的不法利益不但沒有辦法因國安法第二條第一款的比如說發起資助支持操縱或者是指揮或發展"},{"start":3736.114,"end":3751.853,"text":"來論罪甚至連貪污自罪條例的構成要件可能也都不足所以本席是贊成我們這次的修法就是陸海空軍刑法第24條針列的第五項那明文與言語"},{"start":3753.754,"end":3769.881,"text":"舉動文字圖畫電磁記錄科技步伐或其他的方式對敵人效忠之表示納入處罰的範圍可是現在我們卻發現其實有很多人在提這個修法其實是侵害言論自由造成寒蟬效應請問國防部對這部分的言論我們有什麼樣的說法跟對應我請法律師好"},{"start":3779.552,"end":3802.2,"text":"委員好 我是法律師司長 按照現行司法實務的見解如果是說現役軍人遭到中共吸收的話 收取對價關係然後簽署投降的一些誓約書或拍攝影片他確實因為有收取對價關係所以會按照貪污之罪條例 收受賄賂罪等相關的罪責加以處罰"},{"start":3803.34,"end":3813.159,"text":"如果是沒有的話今天是單純的為敵人一個效忠的表示因為軍人對國家就要有絕對忠誠的義務如果對"},{"start":3815.255,"end":3834.09,"text":"單純的對敵人為效忠的表示如果現在不用刑責加以嚴禁的話他會嚴重的去影響到我們的軍事安全還有一個部隊的一個內部管理更何況如果敵人利用他這一些拍攝的影片去做政治手法的渲染或向群眾"},{"start":3835.071,"end":3848.107,"text":"或利用這些去擴散它的一個效益它也會打擊到我國民心士氣甚至會影響到我國人民對我們軍人保駕衛國的決心所以我們在這一次的修法就這個單純的是像"},{"start":3850.209,"end":3866.92,"text":"敵人如果他有一個投降的一個表示所以我們單獨的列這個法我們希望這個法能夠通過然後也可以確保我們的軍事跟國家安全那至於說這一個法的修訂有沒有影響到言論自由的方面我這邊可以跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":3868.161,"end":3893.794,"text":"軍人就是要效忠國家你絕對不能夠去背叛國家甚至你在言語上對國家不忠的言論都是不允許的所以在言論自由的這個部分我們並沒有去限制他只是說只是按照憲法跟國防法的規定他就是要效忠國家不能夠對敵人有任何效忠言論的表示那如果我們對他這種行為加以處罰的話也不會有違反比例原則的相關規定"},{"start":3895.157,"end":3906.822,"text":"對 因為按照憲法第138條還有國防法第5條還有公務人員服務法第1條它都有規定軍人跟公務人員本際負有高度的忠誠義務所以沒有所謂的"},{"start":3910.263,"end":3937.158,"text":"這方面就是妨礙到他的這個言論自由因為我有看到這個美國統一軍事這個司法法典裡面第134條他裡面就有規定他說民主國家普遍承認軍人言論自由並非毫無限制所以我想這個部分應該朝野都應該要來支持的這個修法那另外我還有看到就是說原先我們國防部的這個草案的版本"},{"start":3938.158,"end":3957.498,"text":"在第五項裡面有一個字眼被拿掉了足以生軍事上之不利益者可是在行政院版的時候被拿掉了如果是這個判斷基準被拿掉的話是不是會導致構成要件過於寬鬆或者是說產生使用範圍過廣國防部這部分有什麼樣的說法"},{"start":3958.018,"end":3981.452,"text":"是 這邊跟委員做一個說明我們訂這個東西將足以生軍事上之不利益我們認為說沒有增訂這個必要其實主要在於說 如果現役軍人你用言語舉動 文字圖畫 科技方法 電子紀錄或其他方式你已經直接或間接對敵人表示為效忠其實就已經嚴重的傷害我們國民的情感跟軍事上的利益"},{"start":3982.472,"end":3997.974,"text":"那我們去設計這個法條主要就認為說他對敵人為宣誓效忠表示行為這表示一出來之後這個行為就成立是集成犯我們認為他已經對軍事上已經產生不利了所以我們認為這邊不用"},{"start":3998.474,"end":4018.667,"text":"所以這句話你們後來也同意行政院版本然後把它拿掉就對了那當然我們覺得說我們絕對是支持強化軍人忠誠義務的這個形式的規範所以我們來補足這個目前現行法律是不足所以我也希望說今天的修法朝野能夠有一個共識就是一起來支持今天的修法好 以上謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":4024.445,"end":4028.489,"text":"好 謝謝羅美玲委員接下來請程俊宇委員來做詢答好 謝謝趙委員我們有請鍾副部長請鍾副部長"},{"start":4049.129,"end":4074.183,"text":"副部長早我們今天要審查的是這個陸海空軍刑法第24條的一個修正草案那也是因為大家都很清楚多年來中共對台灣的這個野心從未停止尤其對我們國軍的這個滲透手段已經到了無孔不入無所不用其極的這個地步那先前我們也曾經看到在我國這個軍官"},{"start":4076.892,"end":4099.752,"text":"遭到對方吸收簽署這個投降承諾書甚至穿著我們國軍的軍服拍攝影片配合敵方來做宣傳那過去因為法律上沒有明確的一個規範讓這些實質上屬於叛國的這種行為最後可能只是受到侵犯這不僅僅是我們國軍榮譽的一個踐踏更嚴重打擊部隊的一個士氣"},{"start":4103.115,"end":4124.506,"text":"甚至危害到我們國家的一個安全我想請教副部長從國防部過去所發現或是我們辦理過的這個案例來看中共通常是藉由什麼樣的一個管道和手段來誘使我們的官兵向其表示效忠在這個樣態上有沒有什麼樣的一個變化"},{"start":4125.851,"end":4147.071,"text":"目前來說他大部分會藉由在台灣的在台協力者或是發展軍中的組織來吸收或是用利誘的方式來做相關的滲透的一個手段我們在台灣裡面的內部有人跟他們相互配合就對了"},{"start":4148.304,"end":4164.217,"text":"他會用利益吸收的一個方式來進行對比較低階的一些幹部來進行一些利誘或者吸收的一些手段那這方面我們國防部有沒有什麼樣的一個作為想要來喝止"},{"start":4168.01,"end":4183.15,"text":"委員好 我是政策局副局長跟委員做報告有關於這一部分當然第一個我們就是要做對官兵一個教育那持續以來我們做的教育的結果官兵對針對這些被滲透或甚至有限委面案件的一個檢舉率已經到80%甚至我們運用"},{"start":4184.332,"end":4208.184,"text":"他可能在資金流向或是他個人有不太情形我們的在考核層面掌握到之後我們自己勾結出來整體來講有九成五左右所以說官兵一個自主發現或自主反映這些不當事情的話也相對的一個提升但後續我們現在來講就針對人員的查核層面人員的查核層面與其我們每一次"},{"start":4209.205,"end":4226.846,"text":"針對相關的案例太樣都會檢診來做一個滾動修正來納為最基層的最基層的一年級來他們做一個私教一個依據當然這次的修法我相信也對我們來講未來對懲治這些相關不當也有一定的益處"},{"start":4229.088,"end":4254.956,"text":"為了要有效的喝止這類型的情況繼續發生那嚴重危害我們國家的安全也避免說一再發生的可能性並且能夠徹底的來杜絕這個未戰先降的這種心態我想這次的修法確實是有其必要性那也希望說能夠透過我們這次的修法能夠徹底的來改變"},{"start":4257.017,"end":4275.176,"text":"改善這個情況的繼續發生這個我想我們後續還是請國防部繼續的這個加強那另外我想跟副部長您來討論在上個月傳出這個馬防部大規模涉入這個詐騙案的這個情況那涉案人數有超過60人以上"},{"start":4275.797,"end":4301.89,"text":"我想這不單只是一個詐欺的案件也是一個嚴重的國安的警訊尤其外島地區也是我們防衛的第一線必須更加慎重我們看到這個案件已經交由檢方來偵辦但這件事情據傳持續一到兩年的時間同時涉案人數也很多為什麼我們內部的這個管控還有預警的機制沒有察覺到國防部是否已經有初步的一個檢討"},{"start":4303.13,"end":4329.15,"text":"請教副部長第一個部分是這個部分我們已經有加強宣導來讓官兵加強他的一個法制以及涉嫌詐欺相關的一個法令的一個宣導那第二個事情我們也全盤前導昨天國防部有召開相關的一個檢討會對於後面的一個防制的做法會做一個精進以及這一個防制的一個做法來做"},{"start":4329.87,"end":4353.187,"text":"好那根據我們國防部訂定的這個國軍官兵詐欺案件懲罰參考的一個基準表應該會針對官兵涉案的這個情節輕重給予適當的處分那我想還是請教副部長就這個案子來看我們可能有多少官兵會面臨到汰除的一個懲罰是否能夠有進一步的這個說明部分"},{"start":4353.807,"end":4376.577,"text":"因為這一個整個懲罰跟檢討還在進行當中那有具體的部分我們會到時候跟委員去做個說明好 那接續就是想請教這個兵力問題馬防部是我們防衛的最前線雖然國防部說會在兼顧這個防區戰備還有官兵權益之下由馬防部內部自行來做調整那不會"},{"start":4377.657,"end":4405.532,"text":"使我們的戰力發生有空隙的問題但現有的一個防區內有超過60位以上的官兵被調查面臨太阻的話實在是對我們的整個戰力會造成一個非常嚴重的缺口的問題那我想請教副部長對於馬防部這些人力的缺口是要用什麼樣的方式在最短時間之內來補齊那對於我們防區戰力的影響程度又會是如何"},{"start":4406.152,"end":4431.2,"text":"第一個先向委員說明就是幾位官兵的乘儲要等整個檢討報告確認之後再決定他乘儲的一個基準跟類別那第二個部分是目前馬防部在整個戰備部隊的輪值上面是沒有產生問題的他可以試圖做一些人力調整所以對於外島的一個防務上面目前來說沒有任何的下降還是內部調整嗎 對"},{"start":4432.7,"end":4451.373,"text":"所以他目前因為我們的戰備部隊的輪值有一定的一個基礎那這是涉案的人員他不一定是輪值我們相關的戰備那我們會按照這個戰備的等級提升才檢討人員那目前戰備部隊硬處上面沒有任何的問題"},{"start":4452.435,"end":4476.998,"text":"好 我們針對馬防部的這個案子是危機那也是一個轉機我們必須利用這次的機會徹底來整頓我們基層這個部隊的一個風氣那部隊裡面有害群之馬我們應該要嚴懲就要嚴懲但對於絕大多數兢兢業業所在第一線的官兵我們還是要給予最大的支持我希望我們國防部對於這部分一定要重視好 以上謝謝謝謝委員的指導"},{"start":4479.929,"end":4486.454,"text":"好 謝謝陳俊宇委員詢答接下來請王逸川委員來做詢答好 謝謝主席 我們請副部長謝謝 請鍾副部長"},{"start":4504.904,"end":4531.652,"text":"黃委員好 副部長好今天關於這樣的一個修正我這樣理解看對不對行政院的版本大概分幾種一種叫做如果去投底的話是10年以上到死刑然後第二個如果是這一個去降底的話去跟敵人投降的話不盡應盡之責去投降是3到10年那犯了這兩個的預備犯"},{"start":4532.632,"end":4544.305,"text":"是這一個六個月到五年然後最後加了一個比較新的形態的就是語言舉動文字圖畫電子企圖科技方法"},{"start":4545.165,"end":4568.99,"text":"表達對敵人的效忠是一年以上 七年以下大概是這樣子 而這個版本裡頭行政院的版本 包括委員的版本我看完你們的分析 像林一景委員的提案因為後面多了一句 足以生軍事喪失不利玷污國家榮譽 損害國家利益加這幾個字"},{"start":4571.072,"end":4593.079,"text":"感覺起來你們會比較難處理我看司法院的意見好像也對這幾個字的定義並不是很明確是不是請國安部在這一塊先表達你們的意見尤其是林議警委員加了這些文字之後未來你們在執行上是會增加更多困難"},{"start":4597.952,"end":4625.097,"text":"報告委員好 我是法律師司長跟委員做個說明就是因為有關於委員他在我們用言語舉動文字圖畫電子記錄或是科技方法或其他方式對體人為效忠之表示委員加了足以生軍事上不利益或是玷污國家榮譽這些文字但是因為他這一個軍人他最重要的就是要對國家忠誠"},{"start":4626.257,"end":4653.383,"text":"他絕對不能夠說向敵人表示說我要效忠你這種行為會讓我們全國人民都不認同那這種意識表示出來之後其實我們的看法就認為說這一個為敵人效忠的行為表示就已經成立 就即成敗就已經成立於林鄭月娥委員的後面這一段他因為他這樣就他這種行為一出來說實在話對於我們部隊的內部管理軍紀及國家安全和國內的認同"},{"start":4654.423,"end":4670.753,"text":"都產生極大的影響已經生了軍事上的不利益了就是說加了這一段反而讓這一個可能到時候當事人就拿這一段出來說我也沒有影響國家利益這一類的這樣的一個辯駁嘛 對不對這個當事人他有些犯罪行為他很多矯視之詞啦第二個"},{"start":4679.605,"end":4701.957,"text":"因為新加了這個應該也是最近的這個新型態那我現在如果舉一個例子就是說有人用AI合成把這個我們的這個敵人境外敵對勢力他們的這個叫領袖好了或他們的領導給美化然後就做了一張這個軍人效忠他的圖一種是做這張圖的人做這個"},{"start":4707.165,"end":4719.496,"text":"用AI去生成這張圖的人是現役軍人那他不會犯這一條各位報告因為這可能還要按照個案的具體事實來認識用法那第二個是傳這張圖的人是現役軍人"},{"start":4723.578,"end":4747.674,"text":"跟委員報告因為如果是這樣的一個問題的話我們還是認為應該按照具體的事實沒有就是說那一張圖就是說做那一張圖的是現役軍人就是說他做這件事情已經違反這個已經很明確了這個人已經很明確那我是他的同袍嗎那我收到他傳給我我也覺得很有趣我覺得很有趣於是我就傳了那我有沒有事"},{"start":4748.957,"end":4773.956,"text":"顧委員報告因為我們這個設定的構成要件它就是為敵人為效忠的表示對如果他做這張圖出來他有很明白的直接或是間接要向敵人為一個效忠的表示的話當然會構成我們新申訂的這個罪沒有 那我沒有 我就轉傳對 如果是 當然是如果是你轉傳那我們經過了解後他可能沒有這個向敵人效忠表示的意思但是我們現役軍人你對國家的忠誠"},{"start":4775.077,"end":4801.187,"text":"就是連這種說轉船啊然後這種行為我們都不樂見如果是說我們認為他行為舉止可能有不當我們可以按照陸海空軍懲罰法對他的一個不當的行為舉止加以釋懲好 那你 他轉船了他也沒有表示意見 他就轉船嘛覺得好玩啊 他就轉船轉船到一個有現役軍人的群組然後裡頭就有一個現役軍人說 同意"},{"start":4805.134,"end":4834.774,"text":"這樣各位不知道這可能還是要按照個案的事實來認識用法所以這個弄了之後到時候可能這個檢察官法官我剛講這些都是個案的這個狀況還是同意或者說畫得很好同意或者是畫得很好那他也用言語表達了對吧他對一個圖像他對做了一個言語上的表達了那可能也會中這一條"},{"start":4835.615,"end":4860.439,"text":"所以後續這個修法通過之後後續對於這一些樣態可能國安部這一邊要能夠再跟就要再跟這個檢察官這一邊跟法務部跟司法院在這一些的認定上能夠更加的明確最後一個如果啊這個現役軍人在反串反串啊半夜當啊 演戲啊"},{"start":4866.021,"end":4888.476,"text":"反串然後就有一個人對習近平敬禮對五星旗敬禮大家都知道他們在演戲他們在反串現在在軍方裡頭這樣是允許的嗎我們是應該不會允許這種行為舉止他沒有在軍方他們就整個人跑去KTV唱歌他們就假搞自拍傳上網路"},{"start":4895.882,"end":4902.477,"text":"但是他是現役軍人後來被你們叫去之後他說沒有啦 我們是在玩的我們是在反串的會不會中這一條"},{"start":4904.375,"end":4929.613,"text":"報告委員還是要按照具體的事實來認定如果是說他們有這種效忠敵人的一個表示可能就會落入這一條如果他是反串可能是開玩笑但是因為他行為舉止不當還是影響了軍域我們會用陸海空軍懲罰法等相關的一個法條對他予以釋懲OK 就是不一定會到這個陸海空軍刑法但是有其他的要按照個案來判斷OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":4933.154,"end":4935.195,"text":"好 謝謝王一川委員 接下來請省發會委員轉頭轉頭"},{"start":4960.896,"end":4985.371,"text":"我們是不是先請副部長請副部長等一下我們法律事務司如果有需要就幫副部長討論副部長討論我們今天我們司法法治委員會來安排這個有關陸海空軍刑法第24條修正條文的這個草案的討論跟審查"},{"start":4988.725,"end":4993.863,"text":"我看我們這一次的修法大概主要就是三個部分做修改"},{"start":4995.424,"end":5018.112,"text":"第一個就是在原來24條的第二項有關於不盡其應盡職責而降敵者這個部分提高刑責這是第一個修法就把這種消極的不盡義務而降敵的這種行為太樣提高他的刑責這是第一個部分"},{"start":5019.335,"end":5045.731,"text":"第二個部分在這個第四項的部分就是把第二項我們剛剛講的這個行為太樣它的原本它的這個預備犯跟陰謀犯過去是第二項這種消極不盡其職責相抵的是沒有預備跟陰謀這一次我們修法把預備跟陰謀犯第二項之罪也把它納入這個刑責的範圍這個大概是第二個修法的部分"},{"start":5047.025,"end":5070.497,"text":"第三個就是我們新增的第五項有關於這種新的犯罪的類型就是以語言 舉動 文字 圖畫電磁記錄 科技方法或其他方式對敵人表示效忠者對敵人表示效忠者這個新增的就是大概這個修法今天我們修法大概就這三個部分這三個部分"},{"start":5073.362,"end":5081.431,"text":"有關於這個提高刑責的部分我想大家應該這個社會大家共識應該是比較沒有什麼爭議那關於這個"},{"start":5084.633,"end":5112.77,"text":"這個預備或陰謀的部分也過去因為實際上在這幾年發生了許多案例在這個有預備陰謀的部分他卻沒有無法可苛責所以這個這個也應該比較沒有沒有什麼爭議所以我們剛剛我看剛剛前面委員大概集中的討論的都是有關於我們新增的第五項這個以言語舉動文字圖畫電磁記錄科技方法或其他方式這個對敵人為效忠之表示"},{"start":5115.664,"end":5125.903,"text":"這個部分我們先來看過去我們看到的幾個案例剛剛也有委員有提到我這邊就舉幾個案例包括這個"},{"start":5128.269,"end":5154.657,"text":"這個2023年12月所做的判決我們前陸軍上校向德恩他簽了這個降貢的承諾書降貢承諾書那在這個最後判刑七年定宴但是問題是他那時候判刑就是因為當時沒有這樣子的規定所以他那時候判刑他在這個陸海空軍刑法裡面他沒有法律可以規範這樣子的行為就簽署這個投降承諾書"},{"start":5156.249,"end":5179.869,"text":"所以最後判刑7年是按照依照這個貪污治罪條例收賄罪來判刑對不對是不是這樣副部長是換句話說假設他沒有收錢假設他沒有收賄那他就變成這個行為就完全他是因為他收了錢他收了這個50幾萬因為他收錢所以他觸犯貪污治罪條例假設他沒有收錢就簽了這個頭獎協議書"},{"start":5184.827,"end":5195.585,"text":"那這個按照如果我們沒有做修法的話按照目前的這個陸海控制刑法是不是我們沒有辦法於法律上的苛責 副部長副部長 還是我們司長要回答"},{"start":5196.707,"end":5224.379,"text":"各位報告 這確實上有法治上不足之處所以為什麼我們這次要做這樣的修法就是因為相關的行為這個2023年這個案子另外去年的2月我們有關於這個蕭翔雲 康一彬等等八名現役軍人的這個預謀駕軍機叛逃拍攝新戰投降影片這個部分最後判刑也是依參戶之罪條例也是因為他們收錢"},{"start":5225.419,"end":5241.123,"text":"假設都沒有這種收賄的行為今天我們不修法的話會變成這個我們目前的陸海空行法對這個部分沒有辦法苛責所以這部分我想我們會支持這樣的修法但是剛才所有委員大概關注一個問題這個問題"},{"start":5243.323,"end":5269.194,"text":"來自於什麼來自於我們司法院今天司法院的書面報告司法院書面報告特別點出這一點第一個他們就是說我們在這個本案的研擬階段提出了這個有關於這個實害結果的這個文字就是說過去原本的案原本我們的草案在研擬階段還有現在其他委員提案有關於逐生軍事上之不利益者作為這個構成要件"},{"start":5270.054,"end":5288.745,"text":"的一部分那在我們現在這個今天我們行政院的草案裡面是把這個這樣子的這個實施危險性的部分把它拿掉了那這部分是不是請市長再做一下說明為什麼剛才我有聽到你的說明大概知道你的意思是不是請你再說明一次"},{"start":5289.628,"end":5318.557,"text":"是跟委員再做一個說明因為我們將這個朱以森軍事上是不利益我們拿掉主要這個如果在刑法上是一個世性犯這是法院他後面對他這個行為有一個判斷的一個餘地但是我們就是認為說其實現役軍人就是要效忠國家你對敵人就不能夠有有一個效忠的表示這樣這個表示行為一出來我們認為就這個罪就成立了市長這部分要這樣子來講"},{"start":5320.066,"end":5341.424,"text":"因為我們這個什麼陸海空軍刑法開宗明義第一條就是現役軍人犯本法之罪者 依本法處罰也就是陸海空軍刑法規範的就是現役軍人這個身份犯的身份這個身份是非常明確的那麼現役軍人現役軍人他本質上在法律地位上他本身就建立在對國家的忠誠義務上面"},{"start":5342.225,"end":5367.972,"text":"也就是說你這樣簽署這種投降承諾書之類的這樣子的對敵人表示效忠的行為本身就已經違反了你這個作為軍人的忠誠義務跟服從命令的義務這個是我們入海空軍刑法第一條開宗明義就是規範它的這些忠誠義務相關所以如果我們加上剛才最後這個時害條件你必須"},{"start":5370.72,"end":5393.426,"text":"對於這個逐生軍事上的損害的話他會造成兩個結果第一個就變成你這個未來所有案件我們國防部必須負舉證責任舉證說他這個行為造成了什麼樣的軍事上面的影響但是其實在我們看來軍人因為他有這個國家忠誠義務因此當他有這個行為的時候他其實就必然的造成軍事上的損害是不是這樣講"},{"start":5395.477,"end":5413.192,"text":"對所以就是因為他的身份我們陸海公共刑法的身份犯的這樣子的性質使得這樣子的規定他會造成未來我還要第一個國防部還必須舉證第二國防部舉證之後你還要看陳審法官的心證心證來看你這個到底有沒有造成軍事上的損害但是其實在我們來看"},{"start":5414.502,"end":5433.034,"text":"因為你是現役軍人因此你的國家就負有忠誠的義務所以你所有你只要有這樣子的簽署承諾書對敵人表示效忠的這樣子的行為的表示的時候你就已經造成軍事上的損害了對不對所以應該不必在這個條文裡面再增設這樣子的實害的條件對不對"},{"start":5434.294,"end":5457.693,"text":"這個部分我想要講清楚了講清楚之後我想這個社會也可以接受那這個大家也對於這個清楚說入海空軍刑法的規範跟言論自由是完全是沒有關係的它是在規範現役軍人你對國家的忠誠義務跟服從義務對不對這個部分我想我們在等一下這個主條審查的時候希望我們能夠這個部分能夠表述清楚好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":5461.269,"end":5465.391,"text":"謝謝審發會委員 接下來我們請吳宗憲委員謝謝主席 那我們麻煩副部長我們請總副部長副部長早安"},{"start":5482.355,"end":5502.402,"text":"我想我今天不是說完全跟你們討論法律上面的問題因為主要是我有朋友的小孩他們最近要當兵其實他們很擔心一些問題然後第二個就是說如果當法律的問題部長您都沒有辦法理解各種的細節的話我們更沒有辦法去要求一個二等兵他能夠"},{"start":5503.402,"end":5519.771,"text":"知道到底法律在規範什麼這樣就有風險我們不可能什麼東西都找那個我們的法律事務司司長來做一個解釋那我覺得這次其實讓我很搞不清楚就是說這個想敵跟投敵他這個定義上面我會擔心是"},{"start":5521.251,"end":5544.037,"text":"會讓一些人搞不太清楚尤其是你要怎麼樣去界定一個軍人預備預備不抵抗這個預備不抵抗你要怎麼去猜他你要怎麼去猜他心裡是預備不抵抗當然我先講 我先講我的立場我去多次我再公開一下國會我都講我絕對是忠於國家我絕對支持國防而且我絕對是反對敵人"},{"start":5545.417,"end":5570.183,"text":"這一點這是我的立場但是我們不能讓一個不確定的法律概念變成是寒蟬消音變成是政治工具你要知道2024年之前我們搞的反滲透法還有國安法其實它當時抓了非常多人結果我跟法務部要的資料到目前為止將近八成都是牽結不起訴或是判無罪所以我們不能讓法律的不明確"},{"start":5571.543,"end":5596.702,"text":"違反法律明確性原則然後去讓人民或讓軍人搞不清楚狀況我們講一個就是說如果今天一個軍人一個飛行員空軍飛行員他覺得我飛機沒有我飛行員沒有防寒衣沒有防撞地系統等等的那我最近我不想飛了那這個是他我們應該是認為他要太除掉還是直接認為他要降低請問一下副部長"},{"start":5598.769,"end":5611.967,"text":"因為如果按照你們的條文的話什麼都心理的態度是由你來解釋的話那請問一下我不想飛我覺得我會害怕影響到生命安全那我是降敵還是我是只是太除掉就可以"},{"start":5613.393,"end":5633.705,"text":"沒有啦 副部長如果連你都不知道的話你怎麼能夠要一個小兵能夠理解呢因為他這一個沒有飛他勢必有他一定的因素那應該是講說他我們要去了解他為什麼不願意執行這個任務好 那這個就是風險我跟您報告這個就風險因為這個的決定就是長官"},{"start":5636.807,"end":5656.653,"text":"長官覺得你問他他一定說我沒有我不是但是呢長官就可以替他決定他是想敵還是他就是一個該太處不適格的軍人這第一個法律違反明確性的風險就在這所以為什麼我們在談法律的時候尤其是刑法我們講求明確性原則非常的重要所以"},{"start":5657.728,"end":5687.201,"text":"我先讲一个就是说你今天把一些思想犯预备犯放进去的时候这个就会有很大的风险尤其你的立法例有讲到一些具体的行为你们这次有讲到一些具体的行为那如果有具体的行为有过往的案例那你为什么不条文写的精确而只用阴谋或预备这种思想犯的概念放进去呢因为思想犯最危险的地方就是会把人的立场情绪跟一些抱怨都变成是降底或投底"},{"start":5687.461,"end":5712.06,"text":"我要跟委員解釋一下就譬如說飛行員他不執行任務這個事情我們要檢討平時跟暫時第二個部分是他不執行任務他的具體原因是什麼第三個部分是有關相關的這個頭體跟翔體我們必須要按照個案他有具體的行為來做檢討而不是說他今天有一個不是 你們的條文還包括到陳平時期跟開戰前"},{"start":5713.661,"end":5724.834,"text":"或戰事發生前所以我們必須要按照他個案發生的情形好吧 那我再跟您說明這就是我們法律人擔心的部分因為什麼都個案 什麼都個案到最後"},{"start":5726.038,"end":5749.612,"text":"您也搞不清楚 小兵更搞不清楚好不好 這先跟您說明第一個第二個 什麼叫做效忠這也是一個很不明確的一個概念那我先請教您一個問題現役軍人如果用社群轉發一個敵方的媒體影片譬如說戰狼啊 講那中國人民解放軍多厲害這個然後配文寫 我希望兩岸不要發生戰爭"},{"start":5750.973,"end":5769.326,"text":"他沒有收錢也沒有接觸對方然後只是轉貼那請問一下敵人看到了那這算不算是效忠上有問題或效忠敵人 算不算這個要從個案上面去解釋那第二個被截圖轉傳就是軍人私下跟朋友聊天然後跟朋友罵了一句話"},{"start":5770.647,"end":5799.322,"text":"結果朋友截圖轉到對岸的群組他甚至或是稱讚那個對岸的那個軍力多強那請問這個有沒有效忠對方對岸的人看到了有沒有就是還是跟委員報告就是說第三個兩岸往來這個如果軍人先軍人跑去那邊探親或辦台胞證或上淘寶去買檢體書然後跟那個軍隊同仁說那邊生活不錯這個算不算效忠敵人"},{"start":5800.422,"end":5805.276,"text":"我現在講的都是藍綠白任何一個國民都會遇到的問題請問這是不是效忠"},{"start":5806.634,"end":5834.896,"text":"我要跟委員報告還是依據他有個案具體的行為去檢討好那再來如果軍人KTV唱歌唱一唱說我好累希望敵人趕快來這樣算不算還有再來如果是一些你們講連間接都算那請問什麼叫做間接這是第一個問題什麼叫做間接第二個如果我在臉書上面按讚轉發引用點閱分享或者是私訊留言這個算不算這個都沒有明確我跟您報告"},{"start":5836.687,"end":5864.312,"text":"我再說一件事情我知道你們會跟我回一句話叫做依據憲法第九條軍法是適用在軍人不是用在一般平民對不對但是請看四字二七二號四字二七二號戒嚴時期軍法也有可能適用在一般人民所以今天我會很擔心一件事你今天軍法訂了以後依照我國的法制是有可能用在一般人民依據四字二七二號所以你這些東西不能這麼不明確否則今天不"},{"start":5864.972,"end":5885.395,"text":"不管誰執政都有民主國家執政可能是輪替的那我也不希望說改天如果民眾黨執政或國民黨執政用這個來修理民進黨的人我也不希望這樣所以我一直希望法律能夠有明確性的原則像剛剛主席在質詢我就覺得他質詢的就很清楚那我助理還跑來跟我說剛剛那個王委員今天的質詢很棒所以"},{"start":5886.696,"end":5913.307,"text":"沒有 真的剛剛我助理就在這裡他剛剛就這樣跟我講所以我覺得這個是大家關注的議題法律明確性這個不分任何政黨的傾向我們支持那個陸海空軍刑法去辦叛國的人但是我們希望法律要有明確性更何況這一次司法院跟法務部其實都有報告來提醒你們說這個效忠這個用語太空泛太廣泛了"},{"start":5913.667,"end":5930.274,"text":"建議你們要加上這個行為要有足以產生軍事上的不利益這是這次司法院跟法務部都有給你們做這樣的建議並不是說只有我今天在這裡這樣子提出來我想很多東西不教而殺越之虐"},{"start":5932.162,"end":5947.492,"text":"副部長如果連您都很難去馬上判斷的時候小兵或者是基層軍官更不容易判斷更何況4.272號他是有可能在宣布戒嚴的時候適用到一般人民身上"},{"start":5948.172,"end":5974.228,"text":"這就是我認為陸海空運刑法我們也要嚴格去看不是它只有針對軍人而是會針對到一般的平民我不希望就是說因為你這個效忠跟這個什麼降敵這個我覺得太空泛我不希望回歸到戒嚴時期我看了一本禁書我就要被抓去關因為這都有可能被歸類是在降敵或者是你有沒有陰謀或預備副部長我不知道你的想法是什麼"},{"start":5974.773,"end":5991.766,"text":"第一個部分是有關相關的軍刑法的一個修訂我們會做加強宣導第二個部分就是我們現在所有設的個案他都有強制的辯護人員的設立所以每個個案都會去很緊實的處理"},{"start":5992.907,"end":6017.688,"text":"按照他個案的狀況來做檢討另外我想跟你們再提醒一下除了陸海空軍刑法之外還有陸海空軍的懲罰法你可以記過你可以把他勒令退伍你可以撤職所以對於這種思想上的人他沒有付諸行動或沒有造成實際的危害譬如說我轉發戰狼這部電影雖然我不看那部電影我不屑看但是呢"},{"start":6018.348,"end":6033.864,"text":"今天如果有人看了一段或截了一段轉傳了那會不會他會把自己給卡到官司卡到刑責因為你現在是要修刑法那其實它可以回歸到你們懲罰法去你可以把它汰除掉你可以把它勒令退伍你可以把它記過"},{"start":6034.805,"end":6050.976,"text":"這些不是都可以做嗎而不是做了什麼事要把他判刑而且判刑的標準竟然是長官來認定是不是就像我剛剛說的他因為沒有防寒衣他不敢飛結果你認為是想敵他認為我不是想敵我只是要保護我自己的"},{"start":6051.796,"end":6080.529,"text":"我認為裝備齊全我願意跟我們的敵人一戰決一死戰但是因為現在裝備不齊全我不想飛那你說他是想敵這就會有這個空間存在所以我還是堅持那個點法律人我還是說法律話法律明確性原則這是一個最基本的要求我支持你們對抗所有外來的武力我支持我國的國防我絕對支持但是你不能這樣子有一些不明確的東西在裡面好不好"},{"start":6081.309,"end":6096.022,"text":"副部長可以麻煩你們再就這部分去加以審查可以嗎至少參考司法院跟法務部的意見吧至少參考吧這個部分再麻煩你那因為"},{"start":6098.419,"end":6117.151,"text":"4.272號請你再仔細看一下4.272號我們一般人民也有可能會被試驗上我要跟委員說明就是每一個個案發生他會不會涉及到相關的一個刑責每一個個案都會很謹慎的處理而且每個個案會確實調查他們具體的行為以及他是有涉犯也有強制的辯護制度來"},{"start":6118.112,"end":6139.353,"text":"谢谢但是我跟副部长报告一件事如果连您都没有办法遗忘集资的时候我们更没有办法期待一般的士兵能够知道我怎么样会违法怎么样不会而且入海公益寻法判刑都非常重这是我担心我们的小孩都有一天会当兵他是不一样的我们的小孩都有一天会当兵"},{"start":6140.053,"end":6155.522,"text":"我也一定會支持我小孩要報效我們這個國家但是我不希望法律不明確好不好謝謝副部長再麻煩您能夠參考一下事務院法務部的意見好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳宗憲委員接下來我們請沈伯陽委員"},{"start":6171.157,"end":6199.754,"text":"謝謝主席有請 可能請副部長跟法律事務司司長好 請副部長跟司長沈委員好副部長好今天這個討論我覺得當然是蠻重要的我有幾個點來請教一下第一個就是說我們這一次就是其實剛剛前面委員有提到我們 我先問一下就是說投敵還有降敵這樣的一個文字是我們本來法律就有還是這次才上去的"},{"start":6200.683,"end":6217.924,"text":"報告委員這原來的法條就有了原來法條就有了所謂的投敵就是投奔敵營接受敵人的指揮跟派遣那降敵就是說我跟與敵人在就是說你不盡你應盡之責任而降敵這在法"},{"start":6217.944,"end":6243.305,"text":"法律上都很明確因為投敵跟降敵這個文字它本來就有它本來就有然後它本來也有相對應的解釋所以這個應該不是問題這不是問題所以真正剛剛前面有委員提到說這個可能有不明確什麼等等之類的我覺得這可能有點誤會但是往下因為接下來因為這一次的這一個預備犯這個預備犯有稍微擴張對不對這個我待會再談"},{"start":6244.986,"end":6273.842,"text":"因為我們投敵跟降敵目前我們在法律的定義有兩個層次的問題我們要注意第一個就是我們投敵跟降敵到底是指平時戰時都有還是只有戰時平時戰時都有然後這第一個然後第二個就是說我們投敵因為敵畢竟還是要有一個定義就是要有一個敵人的定義因為我們這個敵人因為我們現在比如說我們有一些修法是用境外敵對勢力等等之類的但我們的外患還有我們若干區刑法一直都寫敵人"},{"start":6275.022,"end":6298.249,"text":"那因为敌人到底要怎么定义有可能会有刚刚又有前面委员讲到的这个定义问题但我们的法院其实是不是已经有针对敌人这个部分有做过说明跟委员做个报告按照陆海空军刑法第10条所谓的敌人就是与我国交战或武力对视之国家或团体那按照我们现在司法书的见解"},{"start":6299.369,"end":6328.675,"text":"中共与我们就是武力对峙的状态他就是我们国军的敌人所以很明确的所以在这边我们就厘清一下就是说按照法律的定义还有我们现在这个法院的解释敌人的定义是明确但这个敌人的定义按照刚刚这个司长提到的是在平时跟战时都通用对不对都通用我们再往下看就是说所以我们今天讲这个以言语为宜人效忠之表示这个也是平时战时都用"},{"start":6329.695,"end":6342.822,"text":"都有如果是這個樣子的話我們看一下我們這一個右邊我們右邊這邊附的是刑法的外患罪刑法的這個外患罪我們在106跟107其實我覺得107算是類型豐富就是軍隊交付敵國的交付敵國將要塞等等之類去交付或者帶敵國招募軍隊傷禍軍人不執行等等之類的它的類型多"},{"start":6357.769,"end":6375.027,"text":"但是我們刑法的外患罪有一個特色就是外患罪適用的這個對象是非常廣泛的所以剛剛前面的委員有提到說這個是不是一般人都會用什麼等等之類的其實我覺得有一件事情應該是要讓國人知道就是我們刑法的外患罪其實已經定在那邊了"},{"start":6375.808,"end":6397.822,"text":"它其實一般人就已經可以用了所以它已經存在了它不是說這次修法才新訂進去的這是從以前到現在所以如果對於一般人民能不能夠適用有所疑慮的話其實應該來修外患罪這是第一個第二個就是在外患罪這一邊這個刑度就是我畫起來的地方因為它畢竟它的身分是一般人就可以用"},{"start":6398.402,"end":6424.874,"text":"那他的刑度是無期徒刑7年以上他的加重注底甚至可以到死刑無期徒刑然後他的預備跟陰謀是3到10那因為他的類型算清楚所以如果用這個清楚的類型去抓那個預備跟陰謀都可以到3到10的話我反而覺得倒過來看我們這一次的修法因為這次的修法是陸海軍軍刑法他針對是軍人不是一般人一般人其實回歸外患罪就已經有很多種類型了"},{"start":6425.774,"end":6453.203,"text":"但是我們這一次在於效忠表示這件事是一到齊這個刑度的平衡上面有沒有想要再考慮看看跟委員說明一下有關於我們的刑度我們其實是考量整個違反效忠國家執事罪商所有的犯罪一個態樣跟他所生的危害然後參考一個刑度的一個集據表我們是有參考這樣所以訂出來的"},{"start":6453.923,"end":6475.602,"text":"我觉得在逐条的时候我们或许可以再深入一下因为我如果单单只看陆海工军刑罚我觉得那个刑度设计看起来是没问题它符合这个本来陆海工军刑罚的级距但因为外患罪它反而没有那个军人的身份它都可以适用嘛那在外患罪这一部分的刑度设计其实很高那其实这有两种方向一个就是我们陆海工军刑罚这边我们不动就是按照这次修法还是用这个一到七"},{"start":6476.283,"end":6500.597,"text":"但反而外患那邊可能要做一個相對應的調整那我也不是說外患這要減輕因為外患這減輕非常奇怪外患是一件很嚴重的事情所以這是我在這一個後面有提出來的就是說你看我們現在有陳平時期我們有戰爭時期中間有這種灰色地帶就是可能接近戰爭了可能這個衝突變多了那我們現在等於是針對軍人這個部分這一次在這邊要討論這個OK"},{"start":6502.418,"end":6526.315,"text":"其他的比如說民選公職公務員等等之類的這個還沒有納入這可能只能回到一般的外患罪那就會變成說我們等於是處理了其中一塊但其他塊沒有處理這當然這不是國防部的事情這應該是整個司法法制的事情但我的意見就是說因為今天通敵還有今天要效忠等等的類型太多了然後身分也很多元"},{"start":6526.875,"end":6546.935,"text":"所以如果我们要做的事情很有可能是这其实我已经提出来了就是看司法法治能不能够看在接下来提出就是我们的外患罪应该做一些刑度上的从轻到重的修正因为它可能有比较轻微的有可能很严重的那这个如果按照不同的类型先做分类再按照不同的身份就是回到我刚刚上面的"},{"start":6547.355,"end":6568.228,"text":"可能元首的 政黨的負責人的政務官的 公務員的退休這一塊其實最近都有在處理這是在另外一包會處理所以等於是我們等於有處理軍人跟退休軍公教政兩包其他這些目前來講如果沒有相對應的處理的話有可能會有點失衡就是我們剛剛講的你跟外患罪比較之下陸海工軍刑罰有可能過輕"},{"start":6569.309,"end":6596.862,"text":"所以在这样的一个情况之下希望就是说我们在接下来的时候这一个赶快修过去之后其他的能够做一些相对应的修正这边是一个建议那我知道今天司法院的这个邢士林副厅长也在法务部的检察司司长也在所以但我就没有要回应但是就是我觉得这个接下来可能要同步的来做那不然的话我们可能没有办法但是会交代说为什么我们就只有针对军人那其他的地方为什么都还没有动那因为时间差不多了以上谢谢"},{"start":6598.002,"end":6611.326,"text":"好謝謝沈伯陽委員接下來我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在好我們就來請王弘瑋委員好謝謝主席我請一下國防部副部長以及我們司法院副廳長"},{"start":6625.902,"end":6645.403,"text":"好 請中副部長還有我們副廳長好 今天因為我們討論這個陸海空軍刑法第24條那條文只有一條但是尤其現在對我們第一線的國軍弟兄來說尤其這些伊林的這些"},{"start":6646.344,"end":6649.465,"text":"就是可能都在20多歲而已那麼現在不管在網路上或者他們照片上都有可能我們擔心的在這次修法裡面會不會讓他們是不小心或者在完全沒有任何的意識之下觸及了相關的法律而使得他們可能變成要處一年以上的徒刑"},{"start":6671.372,"end":6675.115,"text":"那所以這個像剛才吳宗憲委員特別提到很多的案例算不算剛才副部長說都看個案那看起來就看個案就變成大家覺得整個的好像變得很虛然後很擔心會不會由我剛才講的這些年輕的藝齡的男子很容易去觸發"},{"start":6694.844,"end":6712.033,"text":"那比如說這樣因為我們在講說怎麼樣是屬於效忠方式那比如我們在之前比如說對像曹新成先生他跟他的中國的女朋友在他的手指上大家互刻一個忠誠那請問一下這叫不叫效忠忠誠對不對"},{"start":6715.655,"end":6727.864,"text":"老是說那對於很多的這些年輕的異男他可能跟他的男朋友或者跟他的女朋友來互克一個忠誠然後這有沒有可能處罰所以我覺得這個問題確實要在我們今天要把法律出去之前我們要有很多的討論那我現在先請一下這個副廳長因為我有看到因為剛才看到我們司法院今天提出來的好意見"},{"start":6743.234,"end":6769.265,"text":"那麼這裡面特別提到在你們的報告裡面說效忠的表示含義甚廣為了避免過度擴張可罰性的範圍依舊本條第五項它的補充為就是對敵人為效忠之表示後面應該加上足以生軍事上之不利益者這是你們今天"},{"start":6770.365,"end":6791.204,"text":"送到我们司法法治委员会的意见那么能不能请副厅长来说明一下为什么今天你们的意见是这样子委员好 就是说就如同我们报告所说就是说效忠是表示它含义是非常广而这个法定型是一年以上七年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":6792.545,"end":6813.54,"text":"聽不清 對於年輕的藝人來說對 是不清我們認為說這樣法律裡面沒有一個明確的定義說什麼叫效忠的表示的話這個部分我們是擔心處罰範圍可能是會過廣所以我們希望說能夠在法官的個案審查也就是說賦予法官一個個案的審查權說"},{"start":6814.421,"end":6828.495,"text":"他這樣一個行為有沒有對特定法益就是說軍事上的利益有造成侵害的情形 侵害的危險如果有的話這樣才能夠符合所謂法益保護的核心立法的目的"},{"start":6829.698,"end":6854.64,"text":"對 這樣子的修法會比較就是又符合國防部他們的需求然後在我們在法律上執行起來到時候不要變得說整個的這個處罰變得太廣泛 太抽象對不對對 但是就是說整個政策的決定我們還是會尊重大院的這當然 不然的話我們為什麼要請司法院提供意見好 來 副部長"},{"start":6856.652,"end":6875.897,"text":"剛才應該聽到這個副廳長的說法那麼事實上在我們的立法院法制及針對我們這個法裡面也提出來就是當時你們在這個預告這個法律預告的時候其實是有這個文字的是不是你們在法律預告的時候是有這個文字副部長知道吧"},{"start":6878.871,"end":6899.114,"text":"不知道是有這個預告說是有這個文字有這個文字嘛所以他說你後來把它拿掉我不曉得你們為什麼拿掉但是現在司法院也認為應該把這個文字恢復所以你們當時拿掉的理由是什麼跟委員做個說明我們當拿掉最主要的理由就是認為說如果現役軍人"},{"start":6900.39,"end":6922.347,"text":"他对敌人为一个效忠行为的表示其实就已经对于我们的军事安全国家利益产生了实质的危害对啊所以你们基本上是担心产生军事上的危害嘛现役军人效忠敌人就是怕被敌人做一个侵占宣传我刚才在讲效忠我刚才讲我问你嘛"},{"start":6923.047,"end":6935.538,"text":"他上面刻忠诚因为你们讲说只要让对方知道他要效忠了他跟一个对方的不管是中国的女朋友男朋友或是我们互相刻一个忠诚算不算他要像敌人"},{"start":6937.745,"end":6956.523,"text":"對啊 要向中共效忠啊他如果跟他女朋友效忠可能是愛意的表達或是什麼可能因為剛才委員講的只是說他是他女朋友男朋友沒有講敵人啊你們認為單身產生軍事上的不利益危害軍事那放到文字裡面有什麼問題放到文字裡有什麼問題報告委員"},{"start":6960.785,"end":6966.948,"text":"我們就認為說其實只要你一對敵人為效忠就表示這個犯行就成立我們是採集成犯的一個態度所以就由你們來做還是要由檢察官事實上的認定然後來處理"},{"start":6976.894,"end":7003.931,"text":"我覺得今天司法院也做了一個很中肯的建議也做一個很中肯的建議也就是在法律上要有它的明確性要有它的明確性不要致使很多的一些異難他可能做了一些事情你們認定他是做效忠表示我老師說真的會有一些比較白目一點的或者他很隨性的他可能做這些事情他沒有這個意圖但是你們認為他有這個意圖"},{"start":7005.672,"end":7022.549,"text":"那所以我覺得今天基本上我們基本上我們是同意這樣的一個修法的方向但是讓法律更有明確性讓我們的第一線軍官能夠更有就是他不要"},{"start":7023.47,"end":7048.08,"text":"很容易的變成有文字域也好網路域也好這個它有一個什麼行動就一下子就要變成觸法然後被判處一年以上的徒刑所以基本上我覺得司法院已經是一個很中肯的建議而且在我們立法院的法治局也做了這樣相關的建議我覺得基本上這個法的一個修正的方向是OK的"},{"start":7048.76,"end":7076.145,"text":"但是但是如果你在法律上不夠明確就會有剛才我們很多委員會擔心的事情會擔心的事情說這是不是會變成很容易入人於罪所以我希望國防部能夠像副部長你來你都不曉得有一個這麼重要的文字在這個過程裡面在你們的法條的預告裡面到你們送到立法院裡面竟然突然把它被打掉了我不曉得你們中間有沒有經過相關的討論"},{"start":7077.765,"end":7100.337,"text":"原先已經有做過討論你都不知道我剛才問你你都一副很茫然的樣子是不是所以如果你們連這樣就是今天要除以一年以上徒刑這麼重要的事情你們覺得把這個文字拿掉都無所謂我覺得這對於我們所有在前線一線官兵來說"},{"start":7101.437,"end":7115.636,"text":"對他們來講在法律上的保障是不夠的所以我基本上我們還是會比較希望能夠採行司法院的意見以上謝謝王宏威委員接下來請林儲英委員"},{"start":7131.981,"end":7139.954,"text":"謝謝主席 我有請司法院刑事廳的顧副廳長還有法務部檢察師的張師長好 我們請副廳長跟師長"},{"start":7144.301,"end":7168.102,"text":"兩位好 我想要先就一個昨天的這個時事先來詢問一下就是我想這個中共因為可能還台軍演沒想到反而讓台灣的股市傷了三萬點因此乾脆直接公布了所謂台獨頑固分子的名單當然除了這個政治人物之外現在也延伸到了連司法的人員都成為這個所謂台獨打手跟幫兇"},{"start":7169.483,"end":7196.783,"text":"那我們都知道其實相關的這些檢調人員或者是法務人員在針對所謂抓共諜或者是在這個部分其實都非常的努力那麼在就像剛剛為什麼我會從這一題開始是因為在我們在修法的過程當中我們除了就是今天所謂剛剛很多國民黨的委員一直在爭執的所謂什麼效忠敵國但不論如何守護"},{"start":7197.883,"end":7226.036,"text":"這個台灣的主權跟國家安全是非常重要的只是現在中國的長臂管轄如果延伸到司法人員的時候包括我們今天討論的這個修法一旦司法人員心生恐懼擔心他們以後出國就像剛剛質詢的沈博洋委員一樣還要思考我會不會擔心成為中國長臂管轄然後就直接帶走被消失的人員的時候那麼今天我們修再多的法"},{"start":7226.696,"end":7254.978,"text":"根本不用去在乎那些文字到底清不清晰清不清楚基本上是不是司法人員是不是就被恫嚇到了那麼當然我還是相信台灣的司法人員的素質跟專業只是面對這樣子已經不是第一起的所謂被列為台獨頑固分子的名單當中現在司法院或是法務部內部有沒有做哪些的這種所謂"},{"start":7256.639,"end":7262.364,"text":"專業跟這些我們的相關的同仁的一種進一步的這個部分"},{"start":7267.354,"end":7291.309,"text":"謝謝委員催訓那跟委員報告就是說目前司法院針對這個國安或軍事的專業的部分都有設置專庭跟專股那這個專庭專股的法官他每一年呢都要去這個受訓那這個受訓的時數是12個小時那另外我們從109年一直到現在我們有辦了這個每一年都有辦一到兩場一個國安軍事的一個專業的一個訓練"},{"start":7295.054,"end":7301.928,"text":"這個專業訓練可以增加法官對於國安的意識的提升這個部分是我們在提升法官專業性所做的一個作為"},{"start":7302.881,"end":7325.857,"text":"好 其實基本上我要問的不是國安議事的問題啊我相信我們的司法人員的專業跟國安議事不會有問題但是現在如果當同樣的出現在司法人員的時候有沒有其他相互的防護的機制包括他們在協助國安案件的時候那麼在這個部分你們有沒有啟動什麼相關跟國安單位彼此的合作"},{"start":7327.898,"end":7355.263,"text":"就是司法人員自己本身的安全啦感謝委員的關心針對昨天中國發布的新聞本部也發布了新聞稿就是要嚴正的捍衛我國司法人員的人身安全以及捍衛我國的司法主權針對我們同仁偵辦國安案件的時候遭受到這些的壓力我們也跟相關的單位密切的合作來保障我們同仁的人身安全以上報告好"},{"start":7355.783,"end":7382.461,"text":"所以我還是希望在這個部分真的是對於台灣的司法我們今天講這個修法如果說司法人員沒有穩住的時候那說實話修再多的法規都沒有用因為確實在很多檢調單位在辦國安案件的時候其實都很怕調查得很辛苦但是後來在過程中承受壓力但是這個壓力竟然是來自對岸的壓力那就真的是很可笑了另外當然我要回到今天的修法的部分"},{"start":7383.381,"end":7406.517,"text":"剛剛國民黨的委員都在用一種所謂錯誤的定謀方式比如說宣誓效忠我自己個人認為啦男歡女愛宣誓效忠如果不忠的是對他自己的另外一半這根本跟敵對政權無關是吧這應該就是我們在所謂使用文字上面的部分甚至於剛剛有國民黨的委員提到如果非官不出情那"},{"start":7407.237,"end":7429.547,"text":"軍人最重要所執行的任務不是他的勤務嗎如果他不出勤基本上就像一個立法委員就是坐領乾薪但不省預算這個基本上是薪水小偷這已經不是叛國的問題是工作態度有問題所以我想要請問的謝謝國防部我要請問一下那麼就是如果說"},{"start":7431.095,"end":7452.667,"text":"今天反而是用反戰而不是真的用叛國的時候那麼該怎麼辦因為現在本席曾經就是在另外國防外交委會有提到就是說現在有很多的方法是換一個角度來包裝他沒有要你投降他要你反戰那麼在反戰的定義上面呢"},{"start":7453.837,"end":7466.4,"text":"你身為一個軍人可以反戰嗎應該反戰嗎如果他提供了相關的照片然後成為一個反戰者這個有沒有違反到我們今天相關修法的部分呢"},{"start":7470.878,"end":7495.472,"text":"委員好 謝謝委員的詢問首先先跟委員說明一下就是如果剛才所講那個非官他因為什麼防寒衣 他不想要出勤其實如果他 我們連隊長對他下達的是軍事上的命令我們軍人就有服從命令的義務如果他不服從是會構成的陸海工軍刑法的抗命罪而不是所謂的降敵罪其實這都各有各的規範"},{"start":7496.392,"end":7513.546,"text":"是 所以我本席為什麼會特別問這個問題是在尋答的過程中有的時候那種特定的定毛而去扭曲甚至於用個案來去曲解這些文字它會影響到我們的修法我們的修法內容過程當中不可能把一千個一百個樣態放上去而這種所謂定毛然後認為這個修法的方向有錯誤的部分"},{"start":7520.652,"end":7532.387,"text":"我認為你們身為相關的單位主管機關是必須要在透過詢答的當中要來講清楚就像本席詢問的一樣所謂的反戰那麼身為一個軍人應該反戰嗎"},{"start":7535.811,"end":7556.763,"text":"如果你今天身為一個軍人你反戰 你為什麼要當兵軍人不就是為了戰爭而做準備我們不希望戰爭對 是因為剛才在前面的報告已經講軍人就是要克盡職責 保護人民然後效忠國家我們就是要保護國家的安全我們備戰而不拒戰 對"},{"start":7558.024,"end":7572.313,"text":"好 所以本席特別期待是說我非常同意這個修法甚至於我在這個修法的部分我認為不應該用個案去來一一做檢視因為這個應該是留給司法單位來做定奪好 謝謝好 謝謝林楚瑩委員接下來我們請翁曉琳委員"},{"start":7600.523,"end":7611.748,"text":"好 謝謝主席這邊有請副部長副部長請法律師的司長請司長司法院的那個副廳長"},{"start":7613.354,"end":7637.271,"text":"司法院刑事庭副庭長謝謝首先要請教副部長就是因為我想這兩天大家看到F16又出事了全國的人民都非常傷心難過而且也很不捨到現在為止還沒有發現那位失事的飛行員那麼"},{"start":7639.032,"end":7664.418,"text":"事實上就是這些年來國防部明明就是花了大把的錢去買新型的F16然後也花了錢去要去加裝自動防撞的系統甚至也說要更新MMC迷航導向的電腦系統等等可是到目前為止到底這些裝備有沒有已經送到我國了呢"},{"start":7666.789,"end":7685.738,"text":"我們F16當時是訂了多少架的飛機新型的F16報告委員先跟委員回覆您現在問的這是140架那這是在奉展我們這個案子裡面來說多少架 麻煩大聲一點140架新型的F16"},{"start":7689.036,"end":7707.503,"text":"新型的F-16是66架新型的F-1666架然後你剛說140架是整個的我們現在討論的NMC的失效也好跟Auto Kicks這個系統的加裝也好那是在舊購的飛機上也就是目前我們已經在執行戰備的飛機上面"},{"start":7709.184,"end":7725.738,"text":"所以都已經換裝完畢了嗎還是說這個東西都沒有還沒有那為什麼一直都沒有換裝完畢這個部分我們也持續的在努力所謂的在努力是什麼是東西都還沒有到位都還沒有送到就是相關的系統設備都還沒有到台灣嗎"},{"start":7726.559,"end":7754.288,"text":"范委員其實這兩個案子是有相關聯的因為我們先前所買的這個F16 Block兩棟的部分它因為後續的需求它要做能力的性能的提升武器的夾傷的新的採購包含我們現在所討論的Auto Geek這個系統的部分因為它是新增加能力你們當時有沒有訂定履約的時間"},{"start":7756.158,"end":7762.568,"text":"報告委員都有都有所以現在全部都已經延宕了對不對目前這個案子是我們都已經延遲了也就是在履約的時間之內這些東西都沒有到貨"},{"start":7770.075,"end":7791.926,"text":"該安裝的也沒有安裝完備對吧剛剛有跟前面有說明的那目前它主要如果是你現在問的是AutoKicks的部分的話它主要有三個部分第一個部分限速要更新第二個部分它的非超軟體要提升還有它的非超的電腦要完成總之就是都沒有完成嘛"},{"start":7792.546,"end":7810.627,"text":"目前其實都有進度都有進度但是沒有完成我現在講的是就是在我們契約訂定的旅行的期間之內他沒有完成簡單來說他就是一個沒有旅行這契約沒有旅行抱怨他執行的年度是從109年到117年"},{"start":7812.89,"end":7836.932,"text":"所以我們目前已經要求美方提前在116年的第四季希望它能夠把它完成交給我們可是當時應該是分批安裝分批交貨吧現在是一部都沒有對不對我們訂了66架的F16現在有多少架已經到台灣了報告委員這是兩個問題好沒關係就是剛剛前面講的那個系統的部分到現在為止都沒有一部有更新"},{"start":7837.702,"end":7857.61,"text":"系統它要先佈線之後然後做飛超軟體的提升再做飛超電腦的構改所以從107年到現在115年對 都沒有任何的完成沒有任何的系統完成我們這個構型的飛機它是比較舊的是八個兩棟"},{"start":7862.552,"end":7877.487,"text":"那我本身是飛F16的那我們的飛超系統是所謂的這個類比式的飛超那美方他的飛機是數位式的飛超那美方目前國民兵他們也要做提升"},{"start":7877.987,"end":7897.275,"text":"我想要講的是就是說你基本上整個的軍購契約它就是沒有完成你當時沒有符合契約的旅行條件而且也給付不完全在這樣的情況之下美方看起來是明顯的它有拖延整個給付的進度這有沒有任何的損害賠償的罰款"},{"start":7898.991,"end":7924.52,"text":"包委員這部分我們是採軍購方式來執行是由美方來代替我們執行所謂的專案管理的這個部分那其實所以你委託他他竟然是受委託人那麼對於受委託人他如果沒有依照委託人的指示去執行相關的契約條件的時候你們都沒有任何的處罰機制嗎沒有任何的罰款機制嗎"},{"start":7925.7,"end":7939.373,"text":"我們都透過現行的三層架構然後跟美方持續的請他們來協助我們做改善你們只是持續但是你沒有任何的處罰其實沒有任何的罰款其實難怪美方都不甩嘛這就是現在很嚴重的問題我不客氣的講這些年來的幾架的軍機出事國防部是難辭其咎"},{"start":7947.521,"end":7972.081,"text":"就是因為你們怠惰失職不積極的去執行履約的條件也不積極的去監督去要求你們所謂的美方作為一個受委託人所以才會造成這些嚴重的意外我們每個人都不希望看到我們的國軍弟兄有任何的差錯有發生這樣子不幸的這種非安的這個事件"},{"start":7973.51,"end":7999.61,"text":"我們有一句話說我不殺柏仁柏仁因我而死現在國防部的情況就變成說你們不是要去害這非官可是因為你們的怠惰不作為失職而造成我們這些非官傷亡報委員這個部分我沒辦法接受您的說法我認為說你們真的是要積極的檢討你們的作為是能夠讓國軍弟兄安心嗎報委員我們自己你們沒有辦法好好的去照顧國軍弟兄因為現在還要來修法"},{"start":8000.946,"end":8015.894,"text":"然後意圖給這些國軍弟兄們扣帽子去箝制他們的思想去箝制他們的一些行為他們可能根本沒有意圖可是因為你們現在的這個提案對敵人效忠表示"},{"start":8017.509,"end":8036.694,"text":"這已經構成了軍刑法的犯罪這是兩件事情但是它有關係我的意思是說你們沒有好好照顧國軍弟兄你們反而另外又在現行的陸海空軍刑法本來就有降敵罪就投敵罪你們現在增加的這個第五項就連司法院的書面報告都說你們這個是意圖什麼意圖去擴大可罰性的範圍"},{"start":8049.35,"end":8068.887,"text":"這個規定基本上是很嚴重的這未來會有多少的我們的國軍地修可能因此被扣帽子所以我就今天問嘛如果說我跟委員做兩點的說明第一個部分是有關這個布拉格良工部長先聽我說完我接下來要問你什麼叫做對敵人效忠表示"},{"start":8070.322,"end":8084.114,"text":"今天如果有一個國軍弟兄在他的床頭前或是他的手機桌面貼了一個解放軍的美女照片這像敵人笑中表示"},{"start":8085.836,"end":8101.353,"text":"我两件事情跟委员说明第一个有关这一个凤展专案这个构改你不用想前面的专案我现在希望你就我的问题回答因为他这个延伸前面的部分现在跟美国民兵同步在构改所以他的进度"},{"start":8101.613,"end":8128.568,"text":"副部長我希望你對於我剛剛問的問題如果一個國軍弟兄他的手機桌面是個解放軍的美女或者是他看到大陸現在的閱兵出事的他的軍事武器非常精良他在影片上面按個讚這個算不算是對敵人效忠表示他要有具體的行為去顯示而且依據個案的不同來做一個相關的檢討"},{"start":8129.488,"end":8135.169,"text":"好那副部長你剛剛講的重點要具體的行為顯示他的這樣的行為可能會對於軍事上造成不利益對不對因為要對根據他的翻譯以及他的具體行為依據個案來檢討所以你們在這個條文裡面你們有加上他有沒有這個意圖嗎你有顯示他是意圖嗎以你們現在的規定這叫什麼這叫抽象危險"},{"start":8155.433,"end":8161.667,"text":"他只要是他没有不见得要有意图他就有这个行为的表示就可能会受到处罚这样合理吗"},{"start":8164.695,"end":8187.783,"text":"來 請司長法務司司長回答跟委員說明一下鮑委員其實我們跟司法院大概最主要的看法有點不同就是是不是要足以生軍事上是不利益但是因為其實我們考量是其實現役軍人他本來就是要效忠國家你用這言語說其他方式效忠國家"},{"start":8188.803,"end":8196.528,"text":"完全同意要效忠國家可是以所謂的效忠敵人的表示它是個非常抽象不確定的概念就像我剛剛說的"},{"start":8199.006,"end":8218.001,"text":"給大陸的這個看到他們的閱兵的影片按個讚或是分享轉傳這個構不構成對敵人的消動表示如果委員現在所設定的想定就是說他只有按讚或是把解放軍的照片當作他手機的封面我可以很明確跟委員講如果說調查結果就是這樣他不會構成這一條罪"},{"start":8220.723,"end":8236.137,"text":"但是我們國軍你本來言行就是要忠於國家你這些可能會影響到國人對我們國軍的看法可能會影響軍域我們或許會用陸海工軍懲罰法對他的行為來做以適當的懲處而不會用刑法陸海工軍刑法對他苛責這樣子是可能違反軍紀軍律是那麼有嚴重到必須要上綱到用刑法來治罪嗎"},{"start":8245.586,"end":8262.136,"text":"如果是說他已經很明確的向敵人表示效忠這樣子就不行所以我就說嘛什麼叫做明確具體向敵人效忠你們不是陸海空軍刑法用言語舉動文字讀畫這個難道不夠誠嗎所以師長我們都學法律的大家都知道你們現在規定下去的條文它的影響範圍有多大"},{"start":8272.614,"end":8282.163,"text":"甚至可能撕到你以後你唱個大陸的一個流行歌曲你可能都會被扣上對敵人效忠的表示"},{"start":8283.413,"end":8309.171,"text":"什麼叫做舉動你們這裡面的規定以言語 舉動 任何的科技方式來做對敵人效忠你光是怎麼去定義那個敵人你現在告訴我你現在敵人我們哪一個法律裡面有定義敵人跟委員說明一下我們入海空軍刑法第十條與我國交戰或對峙之國家或團體就是我們的敵人那按照司法實務現在的見解"},{"start":8309.992,"end":8339.147,"text":"中共就是跟我們武力對峙的一個團體他們就是我們的敵人這屬於對峙對不對對 武力對峙那現在就是說你匡列了這個敵人的範圍之後接下來就是說他有沒有意圖嘛這意圖很重要啊否則就像我剛剛講的他可能沒有意圖 沒有故意可是就被這個檢察官或是未來被這個就是可能就會因此被扣上這個罪名"},{"start":8340.864,"end":8368.744,"text":"這個基本上是對於我們的國軍弟兄來講他隨時都會處於一個很不安穩因為你不知道法律未來我們的法院會怎麼樣去看待這個事情就像我說的你們已經有陸海空軍懲罰法了有一些違規違紀的行為可以透過懲罰法去處理就可以了有必要上綱到刑法嗎刑法就是強調什麼要法律明確性明確原則"},{"start":8371.061,"end":8386.796,"text":"是 跟委員報告一下我們這個條文的設計本來就是為敵人為效忠表示他前面有言語舉動文字圖畫或什麼什麼等方式要用這些方式表出來它才會構成如果你只有在心中自己去想說你想要做什麼事情真的不會構成"},{"start":8388.195,"end":8403.036,"text":"從你們現在的法條設計裡面看不出來你們不處罰那種心中或者說我自己的一些行為就像我剛剛講的掛照片 唱流行歌曲我按讚分享等等的這些看起來以後都會被你們處罰"},{"start":8404.758,"end":8427.658,"text":"而且還抓去關牢抓去坐牢所以我認為因為現在專委這邊我強烈的建議這個條文它影響很大本期希望能夠開公聽會能夠好好把這個案子講清楚大家來看看如果說有認為要訂定的必要那麼我們要提出更嚴謹的修法"},{"start":8429.46,"end":8455.657,"text":"更嚴謹的修法因為畢竟我們現在已經在陸海空軍刑法裡面有降敵罪有投敵罪這是規定在這個整個章節裡面違反效忠國家的章節所以我們如果說要進一步要去對於這種具體的像敵人效忠的表示而且他要確實是要產生對於國家對於軍隊有不利益的有具體傷害的我們才處罰那這樣我覺得才完整啊所以這個"},{"start":8458.043,"end":8481.116,"text":"議題本席希望召委能夠來開這個公聽會以上謝謝好謝謝翁小玲委員的詢答接下來再來我來先做一個會議程序的一個宣告我們稍後在吳委員私要詢答完畢以後我們先休息五分鐘接續我們來請羅志強委員來做詢答"},{"start":8490.984,"end":8491.464,"text":"請羅委員有請國防部副部長請副部長副部長今天我們的"},{"start":8517.052,"end":8545.059,"text":"審的陸海空軍刑法第24條條文修正草案本席就如實來引用來念一段我們的司法院的修法意見他說關於行政院含情審議陸海空軍刑法第24條條文修正草案效忠之表示其含義甚廣認同嗎效忠的表示含義會不會甚廣"},{"start":8547.187,"end":8563.323,"text":"是吧 對不對謝謝我們副部長很誠實 含義甚廣也就是說它其實處在一個相當不確定的概念那為避免過度擴張可乏性範圍是依舊本條第五項所載點點點對敵人為效忠之表示者"},{"start":8570.475,"end":8595.892,"text":"增加事性犯要件例如補充 框號 點點點對敵人為效忠之表示足以生軍事上之不利益者他在本案嚴厲階段其實也曾經採用過這個文字那如果不足以生軍事上之不利益我先到這邊 來"},{"start":8597.253,"end":8608.511,"text":"您覺得司法院應該要加上一個適性犯要件就是要增加足以生軍事上之不利益者這點副部長看法是什麼"},{"start":8611.038,"end":8638.513,"text":"因為按照憲法跟國防法的規定現役軍人對於國家效忠的義務有明文的規定那考量整個現役軍人如果對這個敵人效忠的表示沒有加以刑責的這個嚴禁的話會使部隊的機率跟軍事安全會有嚴重的一個損害我告訴你 我跟副部長講你的考慮司法院這次真的很周延他也把他放進去講他說"},{"start":8641.212,"end":8668.351,"text":"如果不足以伸军事上之不利益他不是说不足以伸军事上之不利益就没有处罚的可能性他可以用陆海空军惩罚法锁定情务上或情务外违纪行为加以规范即可此等层级化处理依较符合比例原则以及刑法之最后手段性"},{"start":8669.834,"end":8697.446,"text":"來 請教部長你覺得呢因為懲罰法跟刑法是兩個不一樣的一個形態我剛剛有跟委員做說明就是現役軍人他的職務有特殊性那針對敵人對於效忠的言論以刑法來限制這一個判斷的標準會是個案的情節來做認定所以以刑法來限制的話他基本上是"},{"start":8698.322,"end":8711.989,"text":"合理的我先跟副部長說基本上我覺得司法院的思考算是相當周延第一個剛剛你也承認效忠之表示含義甚廣剛剛你也認同"},{"start":8712.745,"end":8740.956,"text":"他正是因為效忠之表示含義甚廣所以後面要加一個所謂的適性犯的要件免得這個含義過廣到時候可能會流淡傷及無辜所以才會加上要足以生軍事上之不利益其實這個邏輯很簡單如果沒有生軍事上之不利益請問要上綱到刑法的意義何在但如果你說軍人就是不一樣我接受"},{"start":8741.836,"end":8764.029,"text":"軍人不一樣你要有一個很高的準則來去看待軍人那也在司法院應屆當中說你們還是做得到啊也就在陸海空軍懲罰法所定的勤務外勤務上及勤務外違紀行為加以規範就可以所以我還是一句話啦這個事情我覺得大家出來討論很好但是"},{"start":8765.029,"end":8791.292,"text":"不需要今天在司法院的這樣的一個這麼清楚的一個所謂規範層級架構司法邏輯上我覺得不裡面真的可以好好在審酌就是說你今天到底要用什麼樣的法律要規範到什麼樣強度我最後做一個簡單的一個東西剛我看到司長在回應光小英委員他舉了幾個行為太陽 按讚或是唱個什麼歌或是做個什麼事情或是說今天去誇"},{"start":8792.072,"end":8811.304,"text":"中國大陸某些東西建設得好像很不錯諸如此類點點點那你剛剛意思是說這樣子不足以構成你的修法後的這個所謂的陸海空軍刑法的這所違法的一個狀態對不對你剛剛意思是說不會違反嗎"},{"start":8811.644,"end":8831.273,"text":"是 如果這很明確的是這樣子的話是不會進入到我們這次修法的條文當中可是問題就來了那我剛跟委員抱一下因為委員剛才所講司法院我時間到了 我先問個問題你剛剛講的回答我先停在一個地方我就問司長一個問題嘛你是檢察官嗎你是法官嗎你不是嘛"},{"start":8832.389,"end":8859.218,"text":"所以换言之你并不能在个案上当中你的保证是没有任何的所谓的实质的意义的因为你只是一个法律解释的一个面向而已这是为什么今天司法院他今天要跟大家讲说你这效忠的表示含义过广我说真的今天我也可以认为说按个赞就是效忠为什么不能这样认定呢其实效忠还是有定义不是 我跟你讲"},{"start":8860.741,"end":8863.711,"text":"其实就是要支持服从忠诚的行为"},{"start":8866.98,"end":8888.028,"text":"我跟委員報告其實我們主要是效忠敵人嘛還是回頭問你一句話嘛我不是說只要效忠就好啊不是 你效忠的定義過廣所以才用所謂的四信犯要件加以所謂局限它的效果嘛是 跟委員報告加四信犯這個選擇問題跟我委員報告一下就是說這個我們國防部不是說不能討論謝謝啊 可以討論對 可以討論那因為"},{"start":8890.589,"end":8910.77,"text":"那因为我们待会儿完之后会有进入逐条的时候我们可以再好好的讨论一下看看委员的指导这样子好 很好啦我觉得这样态度就很好啦基本上不要说是铁板一块说真的我刚刚跟我刚刚跟司长跟我们的副部长讲我上面所说的所有一切还不是我的主张喔谁的主张"},{"start":8912.128,"end":8935.961,"text":"部長誰主張 市長誰主張司法院的建議對嘛 所以因此我回頭講這還是其中一條它裡面關於所謂的陰謀犯部分我覺得它也寫得很好但因為時間有限所以我也不佔用大家時間希望這件事我剛也認同我們汪小林委員講的就是主席如果可以的話能不能就多開幾場公聽會那聽聽大家意見民進黨最喜歡開公聽會就讓大家開公聽會討論以上 謝謝"},{"start":8940.765,"end":8947.607,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強委員因為只有一個條文這個正反意見這個大家也沒辦法以現在的結構也沒辦法誰都強度關山一定會讓大家盡情的去發表大家的一個意見接下來請吳委員是要來做詢答慢慢來"},{"start":8968.656,"end":8983.691,"text":"謝謝主席 請中副部長那我也請法務部檢察司 張司長今天兩個主題 一個我們來探討司法主權 一個部分來講防範滲透就是今天的修法 下一頁"},{"start":8985.747,"end":9007.242,"text":"當然就順著這個昨天被公布的所謂的台獨打手或者是台獨頑固分子中國要展現他的長臂管轄他的跨境鎮壓就是無所不用其極從行政官員到立法委員我本人我也是被國台辦公布的台獨打手幫兇"},{"start":9008.723,"end":9031.42,"text":"我還沒有晉級啦我還沒有從台獨打手幫兇成功晉級為台獨頑固分子我還會持續努力被中國這樣子的一個鎖定我想就是我們做對了很多事我們捍衛國家的主權我會持續努力但是對於我們的司法人員來進行這樣子的一個作為"},{"start":9032.401,"end":9048.899,"text":"之前已經有三加一三位檢察官包括偵辦柯文哲案的檢察官也被列為台獨打手而昨天是針對我們的這個陳樹儀檢察官所以我要就教於法務部我非常肯定部長昨天第一時間他所說的"},{"start":9050.428,"end":9074.141,"text":"這個我們絕對要捍衛我們司法從業從事人員的權益然後國家的司法主權是不容強害的我想部長講到了重點我非常同意您剛講的我們要保護強化保護我們的司法人員第二個也要給他們很強的一個教育"},{"start":9075.356,"end":9096.176,"text":"我們依國家的法治來進行任何司法的宣判基於證據基於專業這都是受到國家的保護跟社會的支持的但是中國這種要傷及司法主權這就有它政治的意圖那我來看下一頁"},{"start":9097.389,"end":9127.089,"text":"我也非常詫異某位蔡正元先生因為三中案正式的宣判即將要入獄服刑昨天鄭麗文國民黨的黨主席特別刻意的頒發實踐一等獎章我覺得很訝異國民黨要成為違法黨國民黨是在鼓勵犯罪嗎包括傅坤祺總召也說要大賣就要背幾條犯罪的案子"},{"start":9128.47,"end":9137.197,"text":"這種言論這種作為是不是也都在挑戰我們的司法來市長"},{"start":9138.847,"end":9158.334,"text":"跟委員報告那檢察官針對這個有任何犯罪嫌疑的這個行為我們都會據以偵辦那對於這個經過司法判決的這個確定案件呢那該執行的我們就會依法執行很好所以我們要支持檢察官因為法務部主管我們的檢查系統"},{"start":9159.198,"end":9184.336,"text":"依法執行證據跟專業是他們最強的偵辦的支持跟後盾所以司法的公信力要被摧毀要被削弱甚至長臂管轄來危及台灣的司法主權跟在野黨聯手要削弱國人對於司法的正當性其實我認為這是一套劇本"},{"start":9185.217,"end":9198.21,"text":"我們就要看得清楚理個明白但是我們持續做對的事下一頁但是在國軍也是一樣副部長我們也曾經有兩批被國台辦所發布的"},{"start":9199.406,"end":9221.004,"text":"罪名是網路攻擊滲透有20名我們的這個資通電軍的成員另外一批呢是去年10月罪名是謀劃分裂國家18名台灣的新戰大隊我們的國軍啊剛剛從司法官司法人員到國軍也受到中國這樣的跨境鎮壓"},{"start":9223.923,"end":9247.518,"text":"還沒進入今天的主題之前就讓我們看到一件事情中國的滲透是非常的具體一點都不抽象對不對是剛剛在野黨委員一直在說對敵效忠好抽象喔那我倒要問這些敵方境外敵對勢力對我國司法人員的長臂管轄對我國國軍人員來"},{"start":9251.019,"end":9264.964,"text":"進行他的職務忠誠為國家做他該做的事情要被這樣殺雞儆猴敵人的意圖再明確也不過了一點都不抽象 不是嗎"},{"start":9266.184,"end":9284.281,"text":"所以我們今天的法律的規定規範修法的方向不是再明確也不過的事嗎背景就在這裡嗎副部長我們對於這些新戰大隊跟資通電軍的成員們我們是不是也如同司法部門一樣給予必要的保護 必要的教育"},{"start":9284.997,"end":9314.057,"text":"目前已經有採取必要的措施好那下一頁所以我再次用這個表格來告訴大家共諜的滲透軍人 軍方佔五成以上的比例所以再具體也不過了一點都不抽象就是今天我們為什麼要啟動修法再具體也不過了當敵人的意圖這麼的清晰為什麼有在野黨的委員持續要來做這些非常模糊的操作"},{"start":9314.938,"end":9326.938,"text":"我們都看得非常清楚下一頁過去司法院釋字430號很具體的說軍人與國家有公法上的職務關係負有高度的忠誠義務這沒有問題"},{"start":9328.925,"end":9349.419,"text":"如果簽署校中書拍攝影片承諾在暫時為祖國效力就已經構成了違背職務的行為剛剛在黨委員一直說司法院今天的意見寫得很好他們今天突然從反對司法院鬥臭司法到今天都說司法院寫得好棒棒那我也請這些藍白的委員看看大法官已經解釋了"},{"start":9350.259,"end":9376.365,"text":"如果為敵來進行這些事情是不是就是違背職務嘛所以我提供大法官的解釋給國防部也可以做論述的參考而第二 貪污治罪條例的違背職務收賄罪是現在檢察官僅能夠拿來偵辦的一個法條這跟對敵效忠黑就是天地差很大嘛"},{"start":9377.276,"end":9392.052,"text":"所以因為現有的法規的不足以及大法官的解釋已經清楚的講了軍人跟國家公法上的職務關係具有高度的忠誠義務都驗證了我們今天的修法是沒有問題的勇敢去做下一頁"},{"start":9393.439,"end":9417.629,"text":"案例在這裡喔2019年有這個陸軍部部訓部上校向德恩遭中國吸收2019年開始收賄簽署投降承諾書所以只能夠用貪污治罪條例判對不對這就是今天我們為什麼要修法因為沒有對稱的法條在陸海控軍刑法裡頭簽頁"},{"start":9420.134,"end":9440.887,"text":"副部長收賄然後簽署投降承諾書是不是再具體也不過了是不是就是對敵投降效忠對不對所以這哪裡抽象他有清楚的行動啊有清楚的言語啊有清楚的表示啊哪裡抽象再下一個"},{"start":9441.727,"end":9458.987,"text":"案例在這裡2021年又有這麼多位向敵人表示疏成而且是具體拍星戰的投降影片的這位陸俊芳跟吳志朋他們再具體也不過了對不對拍星戰影片為匪宣傳哪裡抽象"},{"start":9461.69,"end":9471.475,"text":"但是這些人檢察官也只能夠用貪污治罪條例去辦他很奇怪下一頁所以說今天的修法只有一條只有一條"},{"start":9473.206,"end":9495.674,"text":"我不曉得這個會期萬事再爭議的法案再大的新立法都可以敬附二讀不討論不議而決現在為了陸海空軍洗髮一條要要求召開好多場公聽會藍白委員實在是很雙標只有一個條文如果藍白委員對於這個修法"},{"start":9496.534,"end":9524.873,"text":"新增一項單條新增一項有任何的意見歡迎提對案有任何的意見提出你具體的主張而不是擋著不休這是我的看法所以說提高不盡其責想敵者的刑責要提高增定不盡其責想敵者之欲被犯之處處罰我支持還有要增定最後一項對敵人效忠之表示罪這個表示再清楚也不過了法律只能夠定原則規範"},{"start":9526.554,"end":9547.9,"text":"具體的內容還是要交給我們的執法人員檢察官法官在偵辦的時候去認定他的行為法律不可能寫到很細剛剛委員說的我按了一個讚唱了一首歌手機放了一個解放軍美女的照片會不會就是對狄孝中就會被判不會嘛你們講得很清楚"},{"start":9549.468,"end":9559.973,"text":"我倒是要想到過去唱了什麼歌講了什麼話會被抓去判刑的就是過去在台灣長期一黨執政的中國國民黨"},{"start":9561.809,"end":9589.327,"text":"白色恐怖就是這樣青瓜抓起來 青瓜有勁哥 不能講台語那種白色恐怖 倒是過去國民黨委員他們要去檢討 這是國民黨的專善喔所以最後 司法院的專業意見 我非常尊重但我也希望在野黨的委員今天突然一夕之間 把司法院捧得你好棒棒那麼拜託 不要再來推翻憲法法庭"},{"start":9590.748,"end":9600.326,"text":"的憲法解釋吧不要再來什麼搞對五位大法官的提告吧一夕之間為了阻擋你們不敢得罪中國的修法"},{"start":9601.909,"end":9630.674,"text":"然後拿司法院的這些解釋司法院的解釋也沒有錯誤啊他提醒了立法院在審查的時候要去更細緻的去做很多的思考但司法院沒有推翻這個修法不應當進行討論不是嗎所以今天突然把司法院捧得這麼高的委員那也謝謝你們終於肯定司法院的法律專業所以最終我想司法的主權不容強害我們的國軍"},{"start":9633.191,"end":9650.538,"text":"對國家忠誠的義務也不能夠有任何的退讓這個條文我認為非常具體毫不抽象而且法律就是規範原則性如果內容這些到底有哪些東西修法時候歡迎在一檔委員提出你的版本來討論"},{"start":9651.638,"end":9668.367,"text":"來具體討論而不是把抽象拿作一個阻卻修法的理由而至於如果任何的軍人違反了這些條例的內容那就交給司法人員去就事時去釐清不是靠法律文字就要把細節都定得很清楚"},{"start":9669.367,"end":9692.841,"text":"這是我們立法者的基本ABC啊所以我支持我們的教委我們就照程序走然後絕對會讓在野黨的委員充分表達意見只有一個條文 只有一個條文比起在野黨進赴二讀一整部新的立法都可以不一而決可以讓在野黨的委員好好思考他們到底如何踐踏了台灣的國會民主辛苦大家 繼續加油 謝謝"},{"start":9694.915,"end":9700.227,"text":"好 謝謝吳斯堯委員那我們就按照先前的宣告休息五分鐘"},{"start":9732.278,"end":9736.357,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9778.268,"end":9801.254,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9830.44,"end":9838.822,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9846.51,"end":9860.112,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9882.688,"end":9902.875,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9903.933,"end":9927.142,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9946.806,"end":9953.948,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9961.47,"end":9973.533,"text":"歡迎大家歡迎光臨"},{"start":9988.704,"end":9996.547,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10012.329,"end":10020.606,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10038.107,"end":10044.874,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10057.418,"end":10076.259,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10146.365,"end":10151.729,"text":"來現在繼續開會我們現在請馬文君委員來做懸檔謝謝主席麻煩請國防部副部長還有司法院副部長還有司法院副店長法務部城市長馬委員好副部長好"},{"start":10179.131,"end":10195.109,"text":"謝謝我們今天就陸海空軍刑法第24條條文修正草案的這個部分那因為這一次修法要提高這個降敵者的刑期不過我們在現在我們看到這個修法的法條裡面其實我們看到一個"},{"start":10200.474,"end":10220.102,"text":"可能比較模糊的部分因為剛剛有委員提到很多的個案可是我們在訂定法律的時候我們不會因為個案然後去修正這樣的法律我們看到行政院或者其他委員的提案裡面他有寫到因為我們增加的部分就是以言語舉動文字圖畫電磁記錄科技方法或"},{"start":10225.004,"end":10240.83,"text":"其他方式对敌人为效忠之表示者他的行其处一年以上七年以下有其徒刑就这个部分所谓的其他方式去对敌人表忠这个有什么样的具体的一个想法吗什么叫其他方式"},{"start":10246.129,"end":10260.682,"text":"可以有人可以稍微說明一下嗎你用其他方式是連有些如果是開玩笑或者被惡意檢舉比如說你在拍照的時候可能有其他的一個對象在我們的認定上他覺得是我們的敵人那這樣子如果說被檢舉然後提供這樣的證據資料因為你其他方式是什麼它太模糊如果我們訂的是這樣"},{"start":10272.552,"end":10281.442,"text":"本來軍人他受到的制約就是比較多所以我們有這一個部分可是你像這樣的一個狀況其他方式這個很寬很廣"},{"start":10285.331,"end":10309.209,"text":"這個部分有沒有比較具體的一個說法不然為什麼要寫這個然後你們提這樣的一個法律案是 鮑委員跟委員說明其他方式其實我們有參照刑法的一些相關條文的一個立法例其他方式就是有關於言語舉動文字圖畫 科技電子記錄或是科技方法但是其他方法也是要大概是"},{"start":10310.469,"end":10325.743,"text":"不是採用這些方法但是也是跟這些方法大概也差不多的方法只是我們現在沒有想到一個比較具體的東西是用一個概括補儀的一個方式把它列舉進去在刑法的相關體力也是有這樣的一個那個立法體力"},{"start":10327.847,"end":10348.417,"text":"不叫而殺為之虐今天你們讓所有的軍人如果在不知情的情況之下你犯了這樣子的一個錯誤你可能認為因為有時候你們當時為什麼要廢掉軍法就是認為說他可能有疑慮他不太一樣可是為什麼那時候司法跟軍法他會有不一樣的他的"},{"start":10350.678,"end":10358.22,"text":"任務或者他的認知因為在軍方有時候他的狀況是比較不一樣的不然我來舉幾個例子因為其他方法如果這個法官認定這樣那個法官認定這樣這對軍人是非常不公平的這個我們覺得非常非常這是不可行的我們想請教一下如果說像我們就舉以前的例子因為我們在這個法條裡面其實也是有"},{"start":10378.164,"end":10396.373,"text":"以前空軍黑貓中隊飛行員他依任務飛往大陸地區執行任務的時候飛機遭解放軍擊中降落在匪區他受傷被俘或者他的部隊在跟解放軍作戰的時候依令或戰況深入敵區但進遠決的時候被俘這算降底或投底嗎當然不算這都不算對"},{"start":10403.117,"end":10405.54,"text":"所以你們現在純粹所以你們現在純粹的就是剛剛舉的那些案例而已是嗎只是因為剛剛舉的那些案例就有拍照啦有西戲啊什麼這樣是不是"},{"start":10418.331,"end":10444.264,"text":"就是說以向德恩這個案例為例他就向中共簽寫了一個投降誓約書或是有其他案例他拍影片宣誓效忠那應該你就把它明確化因為我們剛剛說的其他方式這個部分我們認為是不合理的我再請教好了今天近期解放軍對台軍演海巡署被質疑解放軍還沒有離台"},{"start":10445.825,"end":10466.24,"text":"离台海之前就去参会为例这个海巡署是军方的单位我们通常都称它为第二海军它甚至由平转战是随时都要准备的那有决策者认为在12月30号解放军的军舰海警亭已经离开近线制水域就像我们简报幼图里面所显示的"},{"start":10466.86,"end":10472.682,"text":"可是在國防部所以他認為在12月31號中午辦理這個參會把相關單位的主管管把他帶離部隊跟住所這是可以的可是如果我們看到國防部他的報告在他的陳述就是簡報左圖依據國防部掌握的訊息12月31號除了原來的14艘共艦以外他又增加了3艘"},{"start":10496.09,"end":10515.869,"text":"由西太平洋駛入我東部應變區總共有共建17艘跟海警船8艘於我應變區內活動如該決策者是否符合修訂條文所述為不盡其應盡之責而想抵制預備或因謀犯"},{"start":10519.165,"end":10534.24,"text":"這算不算因為如果在我們這麼重要面對在共軍在演訓的時候我們把主觀館本來應該要在第一線崗位上面的全部都帶去聚餐這樣子算不算"},{"start":10535.311,"end":10542.753,"text":"要跟委員做一個說明委員這樣的這個假設前提我比較不大理解這不是假設它已經發生過了可是當你們要訂的時候是跟委員報告一下因為你請看清楚我剛剛提到的我左右兩邊海巡說中國的海警船軍艦已經離開我方近線制水域可是國防部這一方面的訊息會更清楚他在12月31號甚至都還有更多的共艦"},{"start":10563.638,"end":10591.556,"text":"在我們的周邊還在做這樣子的一個演訓所以就這個部分它算不算是為不盡其應盡之責是 跟委員說明一下在右邊的話中國海警船軍艦離開我方近縣制水域這近縣制水域應該只是金馬那個近縣制水域那我們左下方12月31號由西太平洋駛入我東部應變區它這跟近縣制水域好像沒有什麼相關聯繫"},{"start":10592.779,"end":10617.41,"text":"就是他們還在啊所以你把他帶離開了你不是海巡的海巡的相關的任務不是只在禁限制水域他是號稱第二海軍他在很多的預算上面他也是提高很多都是要面臨這樣子的一個因應的狀況所以當你帶開的時候尤其是一級主管你可以去做指揮的所有人員都去聚餐算不算"},{"start":10618.547,"end":10633.846,"text":"跟委員報告一下委員講這個我沒辦法做評論因為海巡他們自己認你沒有辦法做評論你要學這樣的法之前你應該要很明確的讓大家知道不盡情因盡之責而降敵罪是你要有主觀的意思是要投降敵人"},{"start":10635.622,"end":10638.344,"text":"這一種的你們好意思在這裡講這樣子好意思這麼說當你有這樣的權責可是你拜乎職責你就是有想敵的打算了因為你明知道你不可以走如果是這樣那你是針對特定人嘛對不對 你是針對特定人還有主觀翻譯客觀事實嘛"},{"start":10655.638,"end":10663.163,"text":"我想要你不能去猜測當事人是怎麼樣的所以你今天這是你今天講的這句話可是你在這一條條文裡面為不盡其應盡之責這個可能就有降底的一個可能性今天如果有些你不盡你應該的責任消極不抵抗然後你主觀上要投降敵人啊"},{"start":10678.766,"end":10695.407,"text":"你本來就應該要在現場你應該要做這樣的指揮第一線的什麼叫投降他沒有他拍攝影片他也沒有他如果稱讚或再讓你歡笑他也不見得投降敵人可是你認定有就是有"},{"start":10695.828,"end":10698.129,"text":"今天我們特別舉出這樣的例子不是你幫某些人去做這樣的解釋因為我們看到了法條我們有這樣的疑慮你有可能這樣的發生的時候今天如果某些人你看不順眼你可能會覺得他就是有想起的可能"},{"start":10711.176,"end":10720.1,"text":"當有某些人你覺得他可能不是那你就說他可能沒有想體的可能這對我們來說法條件最重要的精神就是他的原質他的我們修訂這樣的法律的一個旨意其實很重要的要達到他的效果而不是任由所有的人去做這樣片面的解釋我們現在已經對司法很多沒有信心是因為有很多的案例已經讓大家覺得就是因人設事因人而為"},{"start":10740.929,"end":10751.354,"text":"這個部分我們還是希望可以有比較妥善的一個說明而不是你去幫當事人做心理的一個解釋謝謝馬文俊委員的詢答這個市長腦袋瓜很清楚來 接下來請陳培宇委員來做詢答好 謝謝主席有請國防部 謝謝"},{"start":10770.63,"end":10790.45,"text":"來 請副部長副部長辛苦了陳委員好我覺得你很辛苦的原因是你早上很可憐你一直在聽很多滑坡邏輯例如說對中國解放軍美女按讚例如說聽中國的流行歌像是前幾年台灣的中小學非常流行唱一首歌叫做小蘋果"},{"start":10791.451,"end":10813.429,"text":"如果按照剛剛前面國民黨委員的發言邏輯所有當年一起唱小蘋果的甚至這幾年有政治人物一起唱孤勇者的可能都會用國民黨的邏輯我再說一次用國民黨的邏輯都要受到這個影響我實在是說國民黨就是在欺騙人民在用滑坡邏輯要誤讀這個修法好 來"},{"start":10815.01,"end":10840.385,"text":"副部長我跟你討論其實我早上聽了這麼多委員的質詢其實相關的新聞事件他們不敢拿出來說的只有民進黨委員敢拿出來說包含手上有第一個士官兵迎屈揮五星旗拍投降影片這個就非常具體了拍的影片是談投降甚至在迎屈前面還有收賄拍投降影片洩密共諜案其實相關起訴的案例也都有了而且他們的行為非常非常的具體"},{"start":10841.006,"end":10846.777,"text":"所以我們絕對認同今天你們所提出來的修法我想問一下到目前為止你們有相關的數量統計嗎類似像這樣具體的案件"},{"start":10854.22,"end":10871.351,"text":"現在整個案子有七件半道簽約投降書以及刺探機密還有發展組織還有交付個人資料這都非常的清楚交付資料然後拍這些影片然後這些我覺得"},{"start":10872.411,"end":10891.065,"text":"國人也都可以理解當一個國軍士官兵他在當兵的期間做這樣的事情我認為國人都看得很清楚全台灣看不清楚的大概只有國民黨委員所以我們來看一下你們今天提出來的修法來下一張我們其實還是很想問如果按照"},{"start":10892.546,"end":10920.297,"text":"有一些國軍士官兵他們如果對法理上不是這麼了解我想不管是立法院這邊或者是提出修法單位我們都有義務跟有責任跟國軍士官兵說清楚當然我們也很希望後續的修法可以促成我們很在意的事情我們可以改進一些可能性包含穩定軍心啦確保軍人的國家忠誠那這個部分我不知道你們這裡怎麼看關於這個修法後穩定軍心確保軍人對於國家的忠誠這個部分"},{"start":10920.799,"end":10948.392,"text":"那確實是這樣子因為依照這個憲法跟國防法的規定軍人對國家效忠義務有明文的規定也考量現役軍人對敵人為效忠的表示沒有加以刑責的嚴禁會使部隊的紀律跟軍事安全遭受到嚴重的損害那第二個部分就是按照現在的司法實例來看現役軍人遭受到中共吸收以及對價關係目前都是以這個涉貪污自罪條例來判處"},{"start":10949.873,"end":10975.558,"text":"那考量現在單純向敵人表示效忠如果沒有加以刑責的嚴禁的話會使部隊的距離跟軍事安全遭受嚴重的損害好 這個部分我非常認同但是我有發現有另外一個擔憂當然可能不是跟你們業務有關可是我認為在修法的時候後續我們也希望可以提出相關的版本就是對於所謂的退役或者是退休的軍人現役的部分你已經講得很清楚我們來討論一下退休跟退役的軍人"},{"start":10976.138,"end":11000.922,"text":"目前他們在退休跟退役之後呢他們繼續會支領國家所給的退休金那我們可不可以要求這些退除役官兵可以對國家表示忠誠否則他到中國去參加政黨活動啦參加一些類政黨活動看起來是民間團體辦的但是他還是表現出對於敵國的忠誠我們現在看到相關的版本裡面例如說在陸海空軍刑法第一條我們一樣只歸意到現役軍人"},{"start":11001.662,"end":11029.694,"text":"陸海空軍刑法第二條相關的辦法裡面也沒有提到這一次24條修法的內容一樣只適用現役軍人到了兩岸人民關係條例裡面第九條裡面寫到只限於對於參加對岸的實體活動而且適用於退將長官首長其實適用的人數也很少如同你剛剛說的如果有很多是基層的士官兵其實也不適用相關的處罰辦法甚至在國安法裡面我們看到這次行政院有提案修法"},{"start":11030.074,"end":11058.642,"text":"但是一樣沒有涵蓋我剛剛所說的退降只有免防任何人鼓吹戰爭消滅我國主權言論我要說我關心的是什麼我們來看下一張像這些人這一位大將軍大家應該都非常熟悉吳斯懷吳斯懷他到中共去聽習近平講話坐在底下展現得非常忠誠非常乖巧彷彿那就是他的祖國他心目中一心一意嚮往的地方"},{"start":11059.302,"end":11085.887,"text":"甚至在非常多民間的政治結論政論節目討論當中我們看到常常有很多退出役官兵他們發出對於台灣強烈高度質疑的聲音甚至詆毀國軍的戰鬥力相關的言論我都覺得在破壞國人對於國軍的信心也在破壞台灣國內的團結甚至是成為中共重要的在台協力者我必須這麼明白的說像最近有網路上有一張"},{"start":11087.027,"end":11103.627,"text":"有人整理這所謂的名嘴翻車現場關於委內瑞拉的案子我們來看一下這裡面就有三位退除役館兵第一位是呂理詩前海軍艦長第二位是利正傑退役軍人第三位是帥化銘他也是退將喔他們都曾經說過類似的話"},{"start":11105.229,"end":11121.449,"text":"我當然知道在這一次修法裡頭我們沒有辦法處理到這個但是既然剛剛已經有國民黨委員要求提出公聽會我也希望後續我們在公聽會上一併來討論關於退出役官兵的問題好嗎那當然這不是您的業務範圍但我還是要表達我對這個事情的關心"},{"start":11122.455,"end":11137.616,"text":"好最後一個我要講的是關於民意代表附中報備這件事情我要說非常的遺憾我們在程序委員會已經被擋超過800次我認為接下來會繼續被擋我不知道就國防部你們的立場你們如何看待所謂民意代表附中必須報備這件事情"},{"start":11141.283,"end":11156.194,"text":"好沒關係那就我來說民意代表附中報備這件事情實在是真的可以公開透明如果你認為你去的地方你見的人你談話的內容你想要為台灣促進的事情是可受公平的可受監督的可受檢討的"},{"start":11157.094,"end":11184.592,"text":"可供討論的那就請民意代表積極支持而且不是只有中央的民意代表不要忘了還有非常多地方的民意代表這是我個人的立場我當然也很希望在後續很多修法上我們可以看到在野黨黨團不要一邊說你們拒絕被抹紅但是所有跟所有我們想要的舔共的法案我們要希望可以修法你們卻又一邊阻止真的是非常的雙標非常的荒謬好 以上謝謝主席謝謝副部長謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":11187.542,"end":11196.605,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在再來 來 寶哥賴世寶委員謝謝主席來跟你碰頭有請國安部的副部長來 請副部長"},{"start":11217.133,"end":11231.883,"text":"大委員好你好我看今天修法提案的對於這個軍人啊這個陸海空在什麼情況之下加重刑罰其實老實講現在民進黨執政十年了這個這個"},{"start":11235.726,"end":11261.634,"text":"提這個東西就提吧我們好好的討論 公聽會好好的討論但是我要提的是我們要看共諜共諜都在哪裡共諜都在綠營裡面賴清德當副總統的時候他裡面就有共諜然後吳釗燮當國安會秘書長的時候他當外交部長的共諜後來高升為這個國安會的秘書長"},{"start":11263.495,"end":11276.572,"text":"然後這個民進黨的這個立委裡面也助理共諜我不知道你這個這個其實共諜更加的規範我們國防部有沒有想到規範要共諜"},{"start":11278.294,"end":11300.526,"text":"共鐵郭委員幫我們現在修的這整個陸海空軍刑法第24條是針對軍人的部分是啊 我現在提醒你啦其實對國家危害更大的是共鐵啦他把國家的機密一捆一捆的帶走然後帶去哪裡你可以看到這個外交部長吳釗燮那時候當當部長的時候短短的時間調了八個邦交國然後跟他的助理"},{"start":11307.27,"end":11317.21,"text":"這麼close的助理他是共諜沒有關係嗎他的行政全部被掌握對不對他到現在還高居這個國安委的秘書長"},{"start":11318.888,"end":11327.651,"text":"不要忘了 大家都了解你現在規範這個 我就說怎麼共鐵都沒有看到 共鐵剛剛就規範第二個問題 我想我們現在這個F16失事我們現在是很難過的10年裡面摔了 就是飛機失事11次我看前面我也問你這個問題了 我就請教你"},{"start":11343.576,"end":11353.584,"text":"關於這一次的飛行員他這件的整個事件你們國防部是不是已經有初步的調查結果 有沒有出來目前還沒有外界都不斷的跟你分析 就兩個嘛一個電腦的問題 一個是什麼飛行的事情 夜間飛行的問題啊"},{"start":11364.946,"end":11384.6,"text":"第一個部分是先跟委員報告就是說我們現在是全力在加強整個搜救這個整個失事的飛行員為主來做檢討那第二個部分因為整個失事的原因包含到環境人為跟機械那這個部分會必須要等到後續的一個檢討才能確定跟委員做"},{"start":11385.501,"end":11405.031,"text":"我們的有關於飛機的維修這一部分還被審計部打槍咧審計部八月份是出了一個審計報告說三十幾項你們只能夠維修兩項而且我們又大言不慚的又開幕好大的陣仗2020年的時候成立一個F16維修中心"},{"start":11406.092,"end":11428.909,"text":"瓦站獨瓦站要怎麼講我都沒有意見反正這個資源在你們手上你可以想好好做F16我們已經有將近140架139架左右再加上要來的66架全世界最大的F16的地方就是台灣成立維修中心很好"},{"start":11429.91,"end":11457.47,"text":"但是呢 工人不加你現在看 還是10年 F16 失事11次不可為不多吧對不對 失事每次都有它的原因你剛剛講 氣候原因什麼之類但是跟 這一次跟它的維修很有關係喔你要不要講一下這個整個失事調查報告沒有出來我們沒辦法給委員確定到底失事的原因為何"},{"start":11458.743,"end":11476.802,"text":"有人就談到 電腦的問題 夜間航行的問題反彈跳的系統等等的這些其實都是 那這樣講 我們就回過來講你要求你今天這個提案我們就看嘛 看社會的反應怎麼樣我們就尊重 看大家怎麼討論但是"},{"start":11480.966,"end":11507.797,"text":"軍人要給他基本的 特別是飛官好不容易栽培一個飛官請問培養一個飛官培養一個飛官要多少錢委員好 是空軍司令部的周安福參謀長當初因為現在跟各機型不一樣訓練出來的那個經費都不太一致那大概要接近1000多萬"},{"start":11509.614,"end":11536.463,"text":"我所了解的大概一兩千萬培養一個飛官一兩千萬他裡面要求很多的國家資源障礙都在身上這個飛官都非常的他對於台灣的這個台海的安全有很大的影響力有很大的一個作用這樣子現在又失蹤了我們看了很難過但是所以回過來我還真的要講的是軍人待遇請問我們的軍人待遇跟其他國家比怎麼樣"},{"start":11539.775,"end":11567.365,"text":"要不然這個問完就可以了軍人待遇包委員我們跟美軍來相比的話確實是跟不上美軍一個月平均一個月是兩千塊美金耶我們一個月多少錢啊對不對所以來我們多少錢你講一下吧這跟生活所需就是一般的好不好你扣一扣也沒差沒差多嘛我們多少嘛我們多少嘛他一個月兩千美金我們多少一個月多少嘛"},{"start":11568.684,"end":11573.349,"text":"呃 跟各 各階級不太一樣下市 下市多少錢 下市大概五萬吧 應該有五萬左右差不多五萬嘛五萬嘛 對吧 一個月兩千"},{"start":11584.747,"end":11606.916,"text":"是不是 這個 我說平均 都大小所以給軍人加薪 我們也三讀通過了總統也公告了 為什麼還不依法編列這個就是總預算一直卡在這裡的我都願意說 大概各退一步我會跟主計長講 可不可以我們公開承諾你公開承諾 只要省總預算"},{"start":11608.457,"end":11636.48,"text":"你就把軍人待遇提升的這個補進來他說沒有錢我說不會沒有錢啦我們大概預算總預算大概三兆過去十幾年平均3.5度一趴一點多趴一算一趴就有300億絕對夠啊 怎麼不夠錢絕對夠就在於賴清德總統要不要拿掉他那個好鬥的心他只要拿掉了所以今天總預算不省就在於他一年之間"},{"start":11637.659,"end":11663.369,"text":"他只要承諾也不用退回總預算重併 不用只要公開承諾一審總預算我一定把這個追加預算補上來一句話我們就審了這應該是很簡單的事情了有機會就回去歡迎你們 謝謝好 謝謝賴世寶委員好 林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員好 不在下一位 莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":11667.182,"end":11694.899,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們國防部副部長好 副部長有請 謝謝今天我看這個大家坐前面的法律師師長這個腦袋怪很清楚的還有我們司法院司法院今天有來司法院代表請上台一下這個副部長剛剛你也聽到了這個是"},{"start":11697.719,"end":11719.955,"text":"很弔詭的一個邏輯總預算的一個附違這個還要附帶了這麼多的一個條件這個隨便聽聽就好了所以還是聚焦在今天整個我們今天整個條文的一個修正我先來請教司法院司法院我看我很用心的去拜讀你們對今天這個條文的一個見解"},{"start":11721.016,"end":11742.842,"text":"就說你們提到的就好像是今天所提出來這樣的一個糾訂的一個草案裡面第一個就是過程條件裡面你們認為可能就不夠明確而且還認為說你說效忠的範圍這第一個那第二個你們也提到說這個是不是會有違反比例原則的一個問題"},{"start":11744.642,"end":11766.463,"text":"但也確實有時候這個看起來就像一個危險犯一樣有時候變成比較抽象那到底要達到什麼樣的一個地步你們也提供了一些意見才把它至少認為說比較不會去跟言論的一個自由有所衝擊不會去違反到整個比例原則你們的憂慮是不是在這個地方"},{"start":11769.773,"end":11794.206,"text":"謝謝委員對 確實我們是擔心說這樣一個法律規定因為行為的太陽太多元了那我們希望說如果能夠加一個示性犯的要件那他是可以做一個比較精準的一個打擊然後也不會說就是處罰到或是說溢出到我們本來沒有意想到的這樣一個行為好 謝謝那我請我們那個法律師師長"},{"start":11795.839,"end":11819.375,"text":"社長我看你今天在談在回應的時候我看也都非常清楚但是我看整個陸海空軍刑法第24條修法的一個核心裡面你說新增現役軍人用言語舉動文字等對敵人來效忠因為畢竟這個是7年以上有期徒刑算是7年以下對7年最高最高7年就要7年有期徒刑"},{"start":11819.995,"end":11838.866,"text":"那當然你去提高不盡其應盡的職責而去降敵罪這個處到最高到十年有期徒刑那同時也去增訂了預備跟陰謀犯的一個處罰的一個規定我跟司法院長的一個講法其實也有他的一個擔憂在剛剛我也問我倒認為說方向"},{"start":11845.894,"end":11872.265,"text":"你們修法的一個方向這個我贊同那這個效果的部分司法院那一個見解倒是你們也可以好好地再來考慮一下因為修法以後呢你至少要有一個嚇阻力會不會嚇阻我相信會有可是產生上實質的一個效果裡面呢那也確實是我會有一點點歡樂啦你像一般我們在修法的時候我們常常會講說你要處理什麼"},{"start":11874.878,"end":11895.994,"text":"比如說詐欺罪一定要把它做一個提升就是說這個社會充滿著詐欺或者是說哪一個暴力犯罪我們要把它做一個提升這個太可惡了社會形成這樣的一個共識那你說這個去類似於說用發個文字言語去對敵人表達效忠我相信社會上也認為是應該去規範可是這個規範裡面"},{"start":11900.493,"end":11922.265,"text":"現在有一些在刑務上或者刑務以外的那這些有時候一般會你在刑法的規定裡面大家有時候常常會認為說刑法它畢竟是一個最後的一個手段那你前面還有一個色違法在可能就沒有到達到那麼重的一個地步司法院這個擔憂我倒是贊同不曉得市長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":11923.72,"end":11937.015,"text":"跟委員報告一下司法院的建議我們國安部也有看到就如同委員講的他建議不是沒有他的道理只是我們雙方考量的論點不大一致而已"},{"start":11937.916,"end":11954.127,"text":"因為我們其實說實在話向德恩案產生之後我們身為現役軍人對我們來講的衝擊很大因為對國家的忠誠就是我們當軍人最重要的一個義務如果對國家不忠誠就不應該要當軍人"},{"start":11955.448,"end":11984.163,"text":"這個我贊同我相信社會也會贊同所以如果說就是你是我們是國家捍衛國家的軍人在第一線操作武器保家衛國如果從你的嘴巴表示出來要效忠敵人我想全國人民也不會接受這樣的一個說辭因為這種說辭馬上就會被敵人拿來渲染作為一個興戰或是利用擴散的一個作為這樣子真的很容易打擊到我們國軍還有全體人民的一個士氣"},{"start":11985.063,"end":11999.85,"text":"是 但我要問的就是說修法常常就是很急迫性要處理什麼你現在我看你2023年軍人起訴案件大部分 你看72%裡面都是其他軍事犯罪酒駕 倒賣 70隻 九十九個人其他違反"},{"start":12005.683,"end":12024.75,"text":"執意職責大部分都是逃兵嘛那反而說你違反國家職責罪這個部分反而我看你那個數據啊反而沒有那麼多啦那你從2024年的數據去做分析趨勢也都一樣啊也是一樣是酒駕、倒賣差不多逃兵那部分違反效忠國家職責這當然很嚴重但是還是極少數還是極少數所以呢我"},{"start":12035.074,"end":12064.469,"text":"比較擔心的就是說這些要跟社會對話也要講清楚軍人當然就一定要去效忠國家你說去發一個現役軍人去發一個效忠別的國家用文字用圖像那還得了那還得了可是是不是要達到用這樣的一個刑法這麼高的一個威嚇或者說立法方向是如此那要見部分是不是讓他更明確我不知道你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":12065.898,"end":12075.833,"text":"各位委員報就是針對司法院的建議其實我們可以在逐條的時候來好好的來一個研討所以我意思是說那紅線在外面不然大家都會說我在開玩笑"},{"start":12077.045,"end":12099.626,"text":"你那個主觀過程要見到最後你很難去含澀進去有那個行為看起來都很可惡媒體如果去給你炒作的話都是新聞的熱點跟焦點可是你到了檢察官尤其是到法官在法官要下那個判決的時候他一定每一個主觀過程要見一一跟你含澀 一一跟你分析你光有一個客觀要見不好啊是不是這樣說"},{"start":12103.066,"end":12117.136,"text":"我師長你懂我意思嗎我了解是啊 所以法律其實如果沒有定得很明確的話你讓個別不一樣的法官那做出不一樣的一個裁決這個也會天下大亂啊你像譬如說藝人最多嘛藝人 藝本地的"},{"start":12120.218,"end":12140.164,"text":"遊走在兩岸他如果來當兵的時候他也去給你發一個好像譬如說去連現役軍人我相信你去發一個祝賀中國的國慶在我們的想像裡面社會一定認為你亂來你現役軍人上面你祝賀中國國慶大家都覺得很不可思議啊但重點如果他的做了要不要提升到"},{"start":12141.184,"end":12154.958,"text":"七年 最高到七年我相信也沒有一個法官會判到七年可是如果比較極端的像這樣的一個情況之下這樣判七年好像也你不覺得好像也比較奇怪一點嗎"},{"start":12156.56,"end":12174.402,"text":"甚至有些藝人有時候也跟他說那不是我那是我經紀人給我發給的大家都亂講所以舉這樣的一個例子裡面我倒是希望說我們這個整個提出來的一個草案裡面方向我相信都是"},{"start":12175.303,"end":12192.984,"text":"為了整個國家的一個安全而且對於現役軍人這些不當的一個行為那本來就是嚴格要去做一個禁止但是我是期待這整個過程要見應該讓他更具體不要到最後到你說檢察官起訴我看"},{"start":12194.185,"end":12221.591,"text":"這個新證也不用超過50%也就是50%以下的0到50這個全部不要形成確信都可以起訴可是到了法官那個地方又不一樣了那法官在判的時候那一一一給你過程要進去做一個檢視的話到最後你要起訴料那到最後又判決無罪你最後當然是以法院的判決算可是社會又引起很多的一個波瀾引起很多的一個波瀾有沒有好處"},{"start":12222.671,"end":12246.808,"text":"你說真正唯一的一個好處是只有殺雞儆猴啦可是對整個司法的一個威信大家會覺得說這樣起訴 這樣起訴人家本來在判假這樣也不好好不好所以我倒覺得那個要件讓他更明確的話那可能這才是在立法院大家一起來支持的話我相信在野黨對這關條文他也不敢後悔來啦好不好是好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12250.12,"end":12250.362,"text":"好 謝謝莊銳雄委員副部長請回 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謝謝主席有請我們國防部副部長副部長有請 謝謝今天我看這個大家做前次委員法律師 師長這個腦袋怪很清楚的還有我們司法院司法院今天有來 請代表請上台一下"},{"start":27.695,"end":53.98,"text":"這個副部長剛剛你也聽到了這個是很吊詭的一個邏輯總預算的一個附違這個還要附帶這麼多的一個條件這個隨便聽聽就好了所以還是聚焦在今天整個我們今天整個條文的一個修正我先來請教司法院司法院我看我很用心的去拜讀你們對今天這個條文的一個見解"},{"start":55.06,"end":76.867,"text":"就說你們提到的就好像是今天所提出來這樣的一個就訂了一個草案裡面第一個就是過程條件裡面你們認為可能就不夠明確而且還認為說你說效忠的範圍這第一個那第二個你們也提到說這個是不是會有違反比例原則的一個問題"},{"start":78.687,"end":100.92,"text":"但也確實有時候這個看起來就像一個危險犯一樣有時候變成比較抽象那到底要達到什麼樣的一個地步你們也提供了一些意見才把它至少認為說比較不會去跟言論的一個自由有所衝擊不會去違反到整個比例原則你們的憂慮是不是在這個地方"},{"start":103.797,"end":128.249,"text":"謝謝委員對 確實我們是擔心說這樣一個法律規定因為行為的太陽太多元了那我們希望說如果能夠加一個示性犯的要件那他是可以做一個比較精準的一個打擊然後也不會說就是處罰到或是說溢出到我們本來沒有意想到的這樣一個行為好 謝謝那我請我們那個法律師師長"},{"start":129.824,"end":153.419,"text":"市長我看你今天在談在回應的時候我看也都非常清楚但是我看整個陸海空軍刑法第24條修法的一個核心裡面你說新增現役軍人用言語舉動文字等對敵人來效忠因為畢竟這個是7年以上有期徒刑算是7年以下對7年最高最高7年就叫7年有期徒刑"},{"start":154.019,"end":172.388,"text":"那當然你去提高不盡其應盡的職責而去降敵罪這個處到最高到10年有期徒刑那同時也去增訂了預備跟陰謀犯的一個處罰的一個規定那我跟司法院長的一個講法其實也有他的一個擔憂在那剛剛我也問我倒認為說方向"},{"start":179.938,"end":206.306,"text":"你們修法的一個方向這個我贊同那這個效果的部分司法院那個見解倒是你們也可以好好地再來考慮一下因為修法以後呢你至少要有一個嚇阻力嘛會不會嚇阻我相信會有可是產生上實質的一個效果裡面呢那也確實是我會有一點點歡樂啦你像一般我們在修法的時候我們常常會講說你要處理什麼"},{"start":208.923,"end":230.031,"text":"譬如說詐欺罪一定要把它做一個提升就是說這個社會充滿著詐欺或者是說哪一個暴力犯罪我們要把它做一個提升這個太可惡了社會形成這樣的一個共識那你說這個去類似於說用發個文字言語去對敵人表達效忠我相信社會上也認為是應該去規範可是這個規範裡面"},{"start":234.526,"end":256.31,"text":"現在有一些在刑務上或者刑務以外的那這些有時候一般會你在刑法的規定裡面大家有時候常常會認為說刑法它畢竟是一個最後的一個手段那你前面還有一個色違法在那可能就沒有到達到那麼重的一個地步司法院這個擔憂我倒是贊同不曉得市長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":257.767,"end":271.039,"text":"跟委員報告一下司法院的建議我們國防部也有看到就如同委員講的他建議不是沒有他的道理只是我們雙方考量的論點不大一致而已"},{"start":271.94,"end":288.174,"text":"因為我們其實說實在話向德恩案產生之後我們身為現役軍人對我們來講的衝擊很大因為對國家的忠誠就是我們當軍人最重要的一個義務啦如果對國家不忠誠就不應該要當軍人"},{"start":289.495,"end":318.191,"text":"這個我贊同我相信社會也會贊同是所以如果說就是你是我們是國家捍衛國家的軍人在第一線操作武器保家衛國如果從你的嘴巴表示出來要效忠敵人我想全國人民也不會接受這樣的一個說辭因為這種說辭馬上就會被敵人拿來渲染作為一個興戰或是利用擴散的一個作為這樣子真的很容易打擊到我們國軍還有全體人民的一個士氣"},{"start":319.111,"end":333.908,"text":"是啊但我要問的就是說修法常常就是很急迫性要處理什麼啦你現在我看你2023年軍人起訴案件大部分你看72%裡面都是其他軍事犯罪啊酒駕啊倒賣啊這就70幾人99個人啊其他違反那個"},{"start":339.734,"end":357.857,"text":"執意職責大部分都是逃兵嘛那反而說你違反國家職責罪這個部分反而我看你那個數據啊反而沒有那麼多啦那你從2024年的數據去做分析趨勢也都一樣啊也是一樣是酒駕、倒賣差不多逃兵那部分違反效忠國家職責這當然很嚴重但是還是極少數還是極少數所以呢我"},{"start":369.119,"end":398.516,"text":"比較擔心的就是說這些要跟社會對話也要講清楚軍人當然就一定要去效忠國家你說去發一個現役軍人去發一個效忠別的國家用文字用圖像那還得了那還得了可是是不是要達到用這樣的一個刑法這麼高的一個威嚇或者說立法方向是如此那要件部分是不是讓他更明確我不知道你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":399.945,"end":409.872,"text":"欸 各位媒體朋友就是針對司法院的建議其實我們可以在逐條的時候來好好的來一個研討所以我意思是說那紅線在外面不然大家都會說我在開玩笑"},{"start":411.089,"end":433.67,"text":"你那個主觀過程要見到最後你很難去含澀進去有那個行為看起來都很可惡媒體如果去給你炒作的話都是新聞的熱點跟焦點可是你到了檢察官尤其是到法官在法官要下那個判決的時候他一定每一個主觀過程要見一一跟你含澀 一一跟你分析你光有一個客觀要見不好啊是不是這樣說"},{"start":437.11,"end":462.002,"text":"我師長你懂我意思嗎 我了解是啊 所以法律其實如果沒有定的很明確的話你讓個別不一樣的法官做出不一樣的一個裁決這個也會天下大亂啊你像譬如說藝人最多嘛藝人一部隊有走在兩岸他如果來當兵的時候他也去給你發一個像譬如說連現役軍人我相信你去發一個祝賀中國的國慶"},{"start":463.263,"end":489.006,"text":"在我們的想像裡面 社會一定認為你亂來 現役軍人什麼祝賀中國國慶大家都覺得很不可思議啊但重點如果他的做了 要不要提升到七年 最高到七年我相信也沒有一個法官會判到七年嘛可是如果比較極端的 像這樣的一個情況之下這樣判七年嘛 好像也你不覺得好像也比較奇怪一點嗎"},{"start":490.604,"end":508.426,"text":"甚至有些藝人 他們也跟他說不是我 那是我的經紀人給我發來的大家互不滿所以舉這樣的一個例子裡面我倒是希望說我們這個整個提出來的一個草案裡面方向我相信都是"},{"start":509.347,"end":527.012,"text":"為了整個國家的一個安全而且對於現役軍人這些不當的一個行為那本來就是嚴格要去做一個禁止啦但是我是期待這整個過程要見應該讓他更具體不要到最後到你說檢察官起訴我看"},{"start":528.212,"end":555.655,"text":"這個新證也不用超過50%50%以下的0到50這個全部不要形成確信都可以起訴啊可是到了法官那個地方又不一樣啦那法官在判的時候那一一一給你過程要進去做一個檢視的話到最後啊 你要有起訴料喔那到最後又判決無罪你最後當然是以法院的判決算嘛可是社會又引起很多的一個波瀾引起很多的一個波瀾有沒有好處"},{"start":556.716,"end":566.922,"text":"你說真正唯一的一個好處是只有殺雞儆猴啦可是對整個司法的一個威信大家會覺得說這樣起訴 這樣起訴人家阿旁邊在判假這樣也不好好不好所以我倒覺得那個要件讓他更明確的話那可能這才是在立法院大家一起來支持的話我相信在野黨對這種條文他也不敢後悔來啦好不好是好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝莊銘先生"}]}},{"id":"17187","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17187","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea78fb36a44e90e469b845b9a810e6f3b4081761262ea6c52fc539c423f06939775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會「強化民主投票促進法草案」公聽會","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-08T08:35:09+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T11:18:00+08:00","duration":9771,"影片長度":"02:42:51","委員發言時間":"08:35:09 - 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所以我要特別介紹一下然後陳芳宇教授張玉萌理事長曲兆祥教授"},{"start":2049.123,"end":2065.837,"text":"還有我們到場的委員有我們鍾嘉賓委員還有我們的內政部吳長赤還有中選會的張處長還有法務部的謝昌士好"},{"start":2075.815,"end":2103.362,"text":"我們今天公聽會的程序如下我們先請部會簡短報告後再請專家學者發言一出席簽到順序委員者每位發言時間為8分鐘本院委員要發言的請自主席才登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為5分鐘最後再由與會的機關代表回應說明"},{"start":2104.282,"end":2115.791,"text":"那我們發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言時間結束者按鈴兩聲那我們現在先請部會報告請吳長賜"},{"start":2126.952,"end":2150.909,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生還有各位學者大家好首先對於各位委員對於內政業務推動的關注跟指導來表達由衷的感謝今天貴委員會所召開強化民主投票促進法草案的公聽會本部應要列席報告有關公聽會所列的討論提綱請將本部意見依序說明如下有關討論提綱一"},{"start":2153.596,"end":2175.016,"text":"114年12月26日大院三讀通過公職選罷法第57條規定為保障原住民的秘密投票權益選舉委員會應單獨設置投票所或於區域選舉投票所內辦理各種公職人員的選舉投票不受第17條第一項應在戶籍地投票之限制"},{"start":2176.389,"end":2198.722,"text":"議題案委員當天在立法院院會的發言該條文是為解決單一投票所只有三個以下原住民選舉人投票結果無法保密的問題讓有這種情況的原住民選舉人可以移轉到同一鄉鎮市區的其他投票所因此該條並不涉及跨直轄市縣市移轉投票的不在籍投票"},{"start":2200.472,"end":2224.071,"text":"以移轉投票作為實施不在籍投票方式如適用的範圍擴及到地方的公職選舉將會涉及到多達8000多種的選舉票的移轉選務的作業將會高度複雜且可能會衍生選舉人如過度集中在特定縣市政府投票所而衝擊選務的執行量能以及延遲選舉開票時間等等問題"},{"start":2227.972,"end":2254.931,"text":"此外也可能造成單一投票所均有少數其他選舉區的移轉選票會將導致各該移轉投票選舉人的投票秘密無法維護境外敵對勢力及其他不法人士也可能藉由此擴大動員規模操控特定對象都申請移轉到特定地區的投票所投票掌握取得投票的結果以達干預選舉或會選之目的"},{"start":2257.884,"end":2283.381,"text":"此舉將會造成選舉公平性的一個危害那另外有關討論提綱二我們也內政部說明依照立法院民主進步黨團所提強化民主投票促進法草案肯認現行投票制度的公正性與公信力因此在不變更現行投票制度的前提下明定投票日及前一日均應放假一日"},{"start":2284.455,"end":2313.554,"text":"來保障弱勢群體與外地工作就學人口的投票權益並要求政府機關應採取必要措施鼓勵返鄉投票且不得干預投票基於該草案並未變更現行的投票方式對選舉制度的影響程度小如果社會各界對於保障公民參政與社會成本間之橫貧取得充分共識本部予以尊重有關討論提綱三本部說明如下"},{"start":2315.251,"end":2338.133,"text":"內政部警政署為查處假訊息案件已經由刑事警察局結合各直轄市縣市政府警察局共組假訊息查處小組並定班SOP提供警察機關迅速查處不實的訊息如涉及選舉假訊息案件警察機關受理後及報請檢察官指揮偵辦"},{"start":2339.741,"end":2357.496,"text":"另外針對透過假錯訊息以及AI身為影音等新型態的犯罪行為總統選罷法及公職選罷法除有明文刑事處罰規範外並以律定大眾傳播媒體業者的協力防範機制"},{"start":2359.312,"end":2386.417,"text":"又歷年與選務辦理期間各級選委會也都持續加強查查選務跟假訊息的舉報及訊息澄清來防範各種選舉舞弊情勢的發生來確保我們選舉秩序及選舉結果的公正性以上簡要說明 敬請各位委員及各位學者先進指教 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2388.243,"end":2410.96,"text":"那我們補充介紹這個我們的賴中強律師還有我們的蔣桂美教授好"},{"start":2411.656,"end":2419.392,"text":"那我們接著請專家學者發言我們按初期簽到順序請第一位謝振宇教授發言"},{"start":2436.411,"end":2459.441,"text":"主席各位委員各位在座的長官各位學者各位媒體朋友這個上面寫東吳政治系教授應該加兩個字退休了年紀比較大所以早上睡不著我想進來是第一個報到的所以不需要多放一天假我們也照樣都可以去老人家都投票去了"},{"start":2461.999,"end":2483.904,"text":"在最近的去年12月26通過了這個所謂的不在籍投票現已原住民那今天的會議的焦點是說民主要讓他更加強民眾的參與這個部分那我還往下拉好不好那我一直認為關鍵沒有找到"},{"start":2487.386,"end":2502.793,"text":"不是不在己的問題是不是要在哪裡投票而是台灣民主已經高度發展可以在所謂的通訊投票這個環節上加強再往下看"},{"start":2505.034,"end":2525.706,"text":"那這個草案的第二條提到前一天放假那我在想如果台灣的一些各種選舉如果不是那麼激烈的話你多放一天假選民你說要補助後面又說要補助這些人要機關行號要給假然後考試院不能"},{"start":2526.306,"end":2551.591,"text":"那人民就多了一天假甚至禮拜天放假連放三天剛好去旅行了就不見得去投票了所以這樣子的一個草案是不是能夠抓到問題的核心所以我一直認為說台灣的政治文化如果我們能夠兼顧到說到底問題出在哪裡"},{"start":2552.945,"end":2564.879,"text":"讓老百姓能夠真正提高他的投票率我想這是大院的一個宗旨我們再來看世界各國的投票率一般採行強制投票的"},{"start":2565.836,"end":2588.966,"text":"投票率會比較高那過去的協界的研究也認為說才比例代表制的投票率也會比較高所以這是關鍵不是前一天投票要放假的這個關鍵所在所以前一天投票會提高民主的參與比較到現在還沒有學術界的一個共識再往下"},{"start":2591.493,"end":2598.87,"text":"我們看第三條又說各個工作機關等等有必要提供交通工具的補助"},{"start":2599.921,"end":2623.729,"text":"我們錢好像還不少花在這個部分是不是值得很多民主國家投票其實是老百姓自由的對這個政權到底他是同意不同意讓他繼續下去的而不是靠砸錢下去說我們這樣的話會提高投票率另外就是說"},{"start":2626.004,"end":2641.663,"text":"固然 返鄉投票是一項就是補助這些青年朋友在座也有青年代表待會我們聽聽他意見那這個是一個好的一個讓年輕人能夠多鼓勵他返鄉投票"},{"start":2642.577,"end":2670.391,"text":"特別是年輕人他理想性很高所以他可以擺脫社會上的現有的既得利益各個政黨當然好像都要搶這一塊但是如果是好像用錢來補助那到底這個年輕人回鄉有沒有投票又要在投票那邊又要查證然後地方政府會增加許許多多的或者是選務單位會增加許多的麻煩點"},{"start":2672.134,"end":2696.826,"text":"這是當然我初步的一個推論甚至我們還有一條說鼓勵各級學校要協助這些青年朋友緩鄉我剛剛提到了青年是理想性很高的學校是可以宣導但是怎麼協助我認為像今天有這種草案的話應該邀請教育部來聽聽他的意見"},{"start":2699.258,"end":2715.476,"text":"這個協助就會造成各校可能會競爭因為教育部可能會根據你協助的多我補助你多會不會造成惡性循環西方民主憲政國家有一句老話一個人他的家就是城堡"},{"start":2716.345,"end":2740.025,"text":"這個house is one's castle如果是這樣的話 我們認為西方的話語就是風吹得進這個人的家 雨打得進去但是國王的兵不能隨便進去失人的財產的地方同樣我們也希望教育保持一個乾淨圖讓教育回歸獨立自主"},{"start":2740.819,"end":2767.574,"text":"如果我們動不動就要教育部做什麼做什麼教育部失去他所謂學術客觀的立場這是我想在座的先進們要特別是朝委的政黨的委員要考量我們怎麼樣讓學校能夠獨立自主運作不要增加他額外的這些負擔我們再往下看"},{"start":2769.758,"end":2789.513,"text":"另外有關草案裡面的很多條文其實在憲罷法現在已經有了比如說什麼孕婦老人等等這些狀況是不是回歸到憲罷法裡面的修正就好不需要另外立一個特別的法然後再往下看"},{"start":2792.017,"end":2796.161,"text":"至於說有一些錯假信息我越來越嚴重這個是事實這個部分應該回歸到法務部怎麼樣防治犯罪的一些問題或者是數位發展部等等這些不要徒增內政部的很多的困擾我想當然內政部也有警政的單位可以查查這些犯罪最後我們來看很多的"},{"start":2818.889,"end":2837.004,"text":"这个草案里面有个总说明说新加坡因为有放假所以提高投票率我想这个可能出信息也不太完整新加坡它是一个强制投票的制度它也因为它的海外的20万的公民"},{"start":2837.802,"end":2852.449,"text":"所以他也實施了許多的促進郵寄投票等等這個才是關鍵不是多放一天假我想如果我們的幕僚把一些意見搞錯了那影響到我們的行政效率再往下看"},{"start":2854.935,"end":2877.277,"text":"我想我们立法要与时俱进改进行政的措施也可以让投票率或者让政治参与提高我刚刚从加州尔湾回来我们看看美国的那个通讯投票美国的很多的行政选举的选进措施往下看有一个图这个图是长设在图书馆旁边的"},{"start":2878.138,"end":2892.33,"text":"老百姓投票不限於投票那一天當然有許多州是說早上7點到晚上8點他是利用上班前下班後去投票的也沒有影響到美國的民主被大家覺得是不民主"},{"start":2893.271,"end":2909.654,"text":"所以我們怎麼樣從一些行政措施來改善不是立法院已經很忙了多增加這個法律有沒有必要回歸到相關的法案上來促進我們民主的參與這是我今天發言的重點 謝謝好 謝謝謝正宇教授那我們接下來請陳芳瑜教授"},{"start":2925.906,"end":2953.452,"text":"主席正常各位大家好今天很高興有機會來這邊跟大家分享這個對於不再投票還有這個所謂的民主價這種這個作為一個對岸的這個一些思考那最近很多人很喜歡在網路上面找那個大家以前發言過的這個文章那如果大家回去找一下我個人的那個部落格的話呢可能大家可以發現我在十幾年前還是學生時期的時候呢就是非常的高度的"},{"start":2954.028,"end":2975.687,"text":"讚揚這個不在即投票這件事情但是我就是對於就是做了一些研究之後發現就是我們對於這個這樣的這個政策有幾種思考的這個方式那我現在其實是比較有疑慮的對於不在即投票比較有疑慮最主要是在這個執行層面上面是有疑慮的那我等一下來一一的跟大家說明"},{"start":2976.363,"end":2991.568,"text":"那我們在做一個政策的思考的時候我們通常不管是政治或是法律通常都有一系列的這種思考方式第一個是去看這個需要性有沒有存在這是第一點那在要不要改成全面性的不在籍投票這個需要性的這個層面"},{"start":2992.708,"end":3018.875,"text":"我必須承認就是如果讓大家有最好最方便的這個投票方式確實是有它的這個好處的不過我們現在台灣放豬全世界來看的話我們的投票率是算非常高的在民主國家當中七成左右的投票率是非常高的那我們好像沒有那個急迫性就是一定要說一定要把它改成說讓大家都一定要投票來刺激這個投票性投票的這個意願這件事情"},{"start":3019.695,"end":3035.526,"text":"這在需要性方面可能有點就是必須要再多論證如果要改成全面性的不代理投票的話第二個是在於這整套制度的信任度方面其實我們現在台灣的這個投票制度是全世界全世界都認可的就是全世界都認可的"},{"start":3036.01,"end":3052.419,"text":"在這個我看了一下就是所有的這個專家學者們有提供紙本資料的話就是有很多人提到說現在是一個新的時代有新的科技這個AI時代等等但是我要跟大家講在AI時代其實最能夠提高大家信任程度的就是紙本"},{"start":3053.249,"end":3074.044,"text":"就是現在全世界所有的高等教育呢都在回歸資本的考試因為科技這件事情其實我們是有很多的不確定性的那從我們學生自治的角度來看的話就是在全台灣的這個大學的自治就是學生會的投票等等的話只要有用到所謂的拉長投票時間或"},{"start":3075.925,"end":3091.022,"text":"所謂的通訊投票或其他任何不是當場一對一就是紙本這種投票的方式都有非常高度的爭議性要嘛就是選票會弄丟要嘛就是電子系統會出問題等等就算是大家這個最引以為傲"},{"start":3092.363,"end":3113.65,"text":"我們像台大就是全台灣最頂尖學府這個投票用電子或是用通訊投票等等每次都有一大堆的這個爭議性的問題所以在這個信任程度在這個執行面上面我覺得是必須要很小心的那在這個執行層面方面剛才謝老師還有其實很多的學者們都有提到一件事情就是說"},{"start":3114.33,"end":3139.24,"text":"我們不能夠讓選務單位增加太多的麻煩那可是我們可以看到在不在籍投票方面不管是我們現在的投票每一次投票都有很多種類的選舉那這個很多種類的選舉那可能如果你要除了你自己那個區的這個票軌之外那還要增加非常非常多不同的票軌就算你是移轉到這個其他的這一個就是你要盡量的這個集中"},{"start":3140.815,"end":3154.532,"text":"就算是你要盡量的把這個人集中在某幾個這個投票區來講好了我們想想看比如說以這個村里長來說的話全台灣有7000快8000個村里長有一種可能性是這樣我們總共有1萬"},{"start":3155.933,"end":3173.362,"text":"8000個左右的投開票所然後要投這個7800個里左右那有沒有這種可能是比如說我現在住在比如說以我們東吳大學士林區福林里我在士林區福林里投票然後我但是我個人的這個戶籍是在新竹有沒有可能在整個士林區福林里就只有我一個人投那個地方的村里長"},{"start":3174.759,"end":3198.301,"text":"這是絕對有可能的因為總共有七千八百個村裡對不對如果說我們要做這件事情的時候這個一定會有可能是我在這個地方投票我在我居住地的地方投票可是我戶籍不是在我居住地那有沒有可能這一整個區就只有我一個人投了那一種類的票所以到時候開票的時候假設我們沒有要移轉這個選票的話那到時候這個士林區府林裡開出來新竹市東鄉區 東鄉裡"},{"start":3201.605,"end":3223.037,"text":"開出來這個票我投給了一號候選人那全台灣都知道我這一票是投給一號候選人所以這個在秘密投票的這個原則保障上面是會有非常大的這個問題的這是第一點如果說我們沒有要移轉這個投票的話那第二點就是說如果說我們要移轉投票的話那問題更多了如果我們要把這個比如說我們要把這個票啊比如說移轉回新竹市東鄉里這個地方的話"},{"start":3223.777,"end":3243.774,"text":"那全台灣有多少個這個選票需要移轉那這個東西的這個執行起來會非常非常的困難而且那如果中間掉了怎麼辦如果中間出車禍怎麼辦還有就是假設不管是移轉到哪裡假設我們今天有移轉到比如說台北市集中在某一個地方在移轉方面會有很大的這個問題存在那第三個就是"},{"start":3246.843,"end":3269.498,"text":"我們如果說在現在這個狀況我們現在是一票一票唱出來其實我們在每次投票的時候都可以看到全世界有非常多的記者學者專家都過來去拍我們台灣的那個投開票唱票然後你可以看到網路上就是一片全世界都認為這個就是最好的方式而且重點是我們台灣的投開票4點結束通常7、8點就可以把全台灣的這個結果都統計出來"},{"start":3270.399,"end":3291.912,"text":"那如果說以後要急轉投票的話那這個就是好我今天40區福林里我投下這票之後要轉回新竹那如果說我今天投屏東呢是不是要轉回屏東那這個東西那我們那我們的這個多出來的開票時間怎麼辦我們多出來開票時間怎麼辦那這個東西就會有很大的這個問題那如果說我們今天現在是一票一票"},{"start":3292.612,"end":3315.538,"text":"一票一票的投一票一票的唱出來的這種狀況都會有人去質疑說這個選票選務可能不公平那更不用講說我們還要把它封裝還要這樣移轉還要這個問題那是不是會有更多人去質疑這個選務會不公平所以我也很擔心就是說在我們現在這個狀況之下連那種就是全世界都認可的這種一票一票唱票的這個制度都會有人去質疑了"},{"start":3316.28,"end":3332.889,"text":"那更不用說如果我們接下來要開這個村裡這個鄉鎮市民代表這個市議員縣議員等等就是你有這麼多這麼多的選票你要去做移轉的時候會不會出問題那這個東西才是真正的增加了這個選務的這個工作非常多的這個複雜性"},{"start":3333.929,"end":3360.303,"text":"跟這個不可預測性所以我覺得在真正處理好這些在討論好這些事情之前呢我覺得比較好的對岸就是現在我們要討論這個對岸就是前一天放假因為我相信各位都同意說就是我們要讓投票越方便越好要讓大家越沒有掛礙越好那這個放假就是前一天多放一天假這個其實就是一個我覺得相對好的對岸就是說如果說我們擔心大家因為各種工作啊或是"},{"start":3360.603,"end":3379.404,"text":"就是移動的困難或者是這個要請假紅的成本太高的話那我們應該要讓大家有一個更充裕的時間去做移動這件事情所以我覺得作為一個對岸來講的話我覺得讓大家前一天多放假讓大家這個不用擔心就是星期六的這一個比如說你來不及"},{"start":3380.086,"end":3403.553,"text":"前一天必須要工作到很晚這種事情的話我覺得這樣讓大家有一個更好的就是你自己人為移動的這種方式會是相對比這個所謂全面的開放這個不在理投票的這種方式是好很多的因為它不會動到我們現有的所有的這個投票制度所以我認為我們現在在這個真正解決這個執行層面的這種複雜問題之前不遺貌然的全面開放這個不在理投票謝謝"},{"start":3411.383,"end":3416.329,"text":"好 我們謝謝陳芳瑜教授我們接下來請張玉萌理事長"},{"start":3436.234,"end":3460.074,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有今天與會的專家學者大家早安我是今年世代共好協會的理事長張玉萌那我過去在大學的期間所在的學校就是剛剛芳瑜老師所提到的國立台灣大學那當時也參與國立台灣大學的這個學生自治的選舉那事實上其實台大的選舉是非常進步的"},{"start":3460.374,"end":3475.514,"text":"也就是透过不论是移转的投票或者是透过线上的投票系统但是我大学在学的四年间每个学期其实都会有不同类型的投票包含学生议员的代表包含比如说学生会长等等的选举"},{"start":3475.894,"end":3496.12,"text":"甚至是多合一的系學會或者是系上的代表等等的都參與這樣的線上投票的系統但是我在學的四年之間基本上有一半的時間以上投票的內容都會出現嚴重的瑕疵或者是系統的故障那這樣的故障往往就會導致在當天或者是在這一次的選舉裡面"},{"start":3499.901,"end":3519.187,"text":"就產生非常大的爭議那故障的內容千奇百怪包含譬如說當天的系統故障 當掉就導致全校都沒有辦法進行投票或者是當天有幾分鐘這個系統是沒有辦法登入使用的那這件事就會導致在那節下課也許我本來就安排去投票的時間"},{"start":3519.907,"end":3539.788,"text":"我就得要另外安排去投票往往有時候趕不上投票的時間這也導致我思考非常多關於線上投票或者是不在籍投票如果在我國的大型投票發生這樣的問題其實會嚴重的影響學生對於或者是青年對於投票的不信任這是我所想到最直接的問題在"},{"start":3542.95,"end":3564.463,"text":"2018年的選舉開始也就是我們協會開始投入公共事務我們就開始思考希望可以降低年輕人的投票成本所以當時我們發起一個行動叫做青年民主返鄉列車那透過這樣的行動透過線上的募資來讓年輕人可以用比較低廉的價格讓他們可以回到戶籍地去投下神聖的一票"},{"start":3565.123,"end":3593.371,"text":"我跟大家稍微分享一下這樣的成果在2018年我們地方選舉跟10項的不同公投案總共有2000多人搭乘這樣的列車投票那當然有很多年輕人他也許不需要這樣的服務所以他自行返鄉投票那2020年的大選實際的參與人數也的確比較高有3500人是透過這樣的系統來回家投票那當時其實就有很多年輕人分享這樣的回家投票的經驗包含我一個這個社工系的同學他其實也搭乘我們的返鄉列車"},{"start":3594.191,"end":3621.833,"text":"他是來自花蓮風冰港口部落的同學那當時他其實分享說透過現在的投票系統他要回到部落投票如果在當天要返鄉投票他必須一定要在當天的中午就一定要搭上火車不然的話他因為搭上火車還要返回部落他如果透過客運然後再不斷轉程他是絕對沒有辦法在當天投票的這個截止之前返回到部落這代表意味著他基本上得要前一天就出發"},{"start":3622.754,"end":3648.553,"text":"那其他的同學其實也常反映的是我們現在的投票設計以總統大選來說大概都是1月中左右來投票那這個其實跟現在大學的期中考對不起期末考或者期末報告結束的時間學期結束的時間是高度重疊的那很多同學他也許是在期末考的時間回家投票那尤其跟這個過年的時間其實高度接近所以很多的同學他也許會因為這樣的需求所以他等到因為他可能經濟這個成本比較高"},{"start":3651.335,"end":3666.227,"text":"所以他等到過年的時候才回家如果他只能選擇一個時間來回家的話這件事其實促成我們很多的想法我們的想法就是其實如果有一天我們是不需要透過這樣的返鄉專車不需要透過我們的服務來完成投票這件事情"},{"start":3666.727,"end":3684.184,"text":"其實才應該是真正降低青年的投票成本那我們今天在討論這個回到戶籍地投票其實我認為本身就應該要被檢討我們的戶籍法其實就已經規定如果你簽出戶籍有這樣的事實三個月之內你就必須要做這個戶籍的移轉你就必須要簽戶籍"},{"start":3685.345,"end":3700.583,"text":"那過去其實大部分的大學都不開放這件事情那所以這件事情在上一個屆次的期間第十屆立法院其實我們當時也不斷的跟教育部希望進行索資跟溝通那當時其實教育部給我們的一個內容我不知道這幾年有沒有改變但是當時教育部給的"},{"start":3701.384,"end":3729.433,"text":"這個大學宿舍簽戶籍最高比例的是在金門大學這應該也符合大家的認知因為金門大學很多同學因為這個機票的需求所以簽戶籍那第二這個需求的應該是捧科大因為都是在離島的大學那其實就算我就讀台灣大學如果我是居住在台北我居住在大學宿舍我為什麼要去投台南的市長呢或者是我為什麼要去投台中的議員呢雖然那是我的出身地也往往是我的戶籍地但是"},{"start":3730.313,"end":3754.634,"text":"這件事情其實跟民主的精神是有很大的落差的因為我長期不居住在這樣的城市那當然全國性的大選也許沒差可是地方的選舉其實這個就嚴重的違反人籍合一的這樣的精神所以過去其實就這樣的人口比例來說台灣大概有1900萬左右的這個投票人口那四分之一左右其實是廣義的青年那就會有這樣的問題發生也就是他"},{"start":3756.335,"end":3770.191,"text":"因為工作或者是就學的需求他其實是離開他的戶籍地的但是他投票往往是投他戶籍地的這樣的民意代表或者是縣市長那這就導致他的投票成本不但高也造成他投的其實並不是他本身居住的這個情境的問題所以"},{"start":3773.094,"end":3789.154,"text":"這過去的確在現在這個戶籍法沒有落實的情況下我也承認這是一個應該要解決的問題但是我過去也不斷地在思考說如果在台灣這樣的我們當天就投票並且開票的情境下如果就貿然地實施沒有經過討論的不在籍投票"},{"start":3791.457,"end":3807.623,"text":"秘密投票的原則其實的確會出現一些問題秘密投票的意思剛剛老師也稍微說明他並不是說在投票的當下沒有人看到你投什麼這個就叫秘密投票如果在最後就投票開票之後我們是可以透過結果來反推這個"},{"start":3808.883,"end":3828.486,"text":"不同當地投票所的投票人的意向這個也是一個對秘密投票的破壞所以它是一個可推論性並不是當下的目睹你怎麼投票所以這件事情其實的確在小選區就容易發生包含離島 譬如說馬祖其實高度就有這樣的問題因為它人口的確比較少"},{"start":3828.806,"end":3838.554,"text":"或者是我們過去處理的就是原住民住在這個戶籍地投票的問題那的確這樣會產生這樣的問題但如果全國我們都來實施這樣的不在籍投票或者是一轉投票也可能會產生這樣的問題因為在這個投票所裡面如果我一轉到這邊只有我一個人是屬於譬如說這個花蓮這個某一個鄉鎮市的這個同學或者是這個年輕人的確我們可能就可以來反推"},{"start":3854.968,"end":3874.587,"text":"這個同學他的投票是什麼那第二個就是如果有一個這個候選人或者是某一個團體他有心要進行這樣的計票也就是我想要透過推論來確認在這個地方的人是不是有這個投下我這一票的話我是不是可以把它動員到其他投票所不論是透過事前登記或者是用什麼樣的方式移轉投票"},{"start":3874.947,"end":3892.265,"text":"的確就會造成這樣的問題那第三個其實也很直觀的就是如果在現在的選務量能之下我們並不是透過全國性的投票譬如說總統大選投票或者是全國性公投的投票這個當然比較沒有問題但是如果是地方縣市首長因為他有22縣市甚至在議員或鄉鎮市民代表的"},{"start":3893.907,"end":3905.997,"text":"這個投票樣態非常多種那移轉投票之後的確對於選務量能造成衝擊最直接的就是如果我們在計票的這個過程中都沒有產生任何的閃失譬如說我們運送選票也沒有什麼閃失沒有產生任何問題但是在最後這個計票並沒有如現在我們在當天計完票這其實是台灣的民主的一個奇蹟也是我們過去說這個樂見的在當天我們就計完票開完票並且"},{"start":3921.071,"end":3937.921,"text":"確認這個投票成果那是否會嚴重的衝擊對於今年這個對於民主所過去建立長期以來的信任因此我們認為在現在的制度之下透過民主價的設計比較能夠達成我們現在這個青年投票門檻的降低謝謝好 謝謝曾理事長那我們接下來請鍾嘉斌幹事長"},{"start":3955.049,"end":3977.166,"text":"今天我的標題就是消除投票障礙促進公民參與健全選舉制度確保社會信任今天公聽會要幹嘛呢公聽會是要找出問題還是要找出解方沒錯 兩者都要因為我們有層出不窮的問題但永遠沒有單一有效的解方我們來看一個大家思考一下台灣有多少人可以投票"},{"start":3978.223,"end":4007.911,"text":"台灣在2024年有將近1950萬個合格選民大概有當年超過1300人投票接下來今年的選舉我們查4年前來對照我們有多少的候選人我們有加起來有11023個當選名額 應選名額那其他的我就不談了 我們來談單單是我們的鄉鎮市民代表就有超過2100人我們的基層的村里長有7700多人"},{"start":4009.486,"end":4037.305,"text":"這些人的權利跟每個選民息息相關好那我們來談那今天為什麼會有一個這個投票的促進法呢它是要針對什麼問題呢針對我們看下一張就是這個問題啦因為根據過往的統計20到30歲之間的青年投票率一直擺盪有時候很低有時候還蠻高的那主要呢叫一般的選民中年選民平均低了5到10%"},{"start":4039.031,"end":4058.902,"text":"所以現在大家在關注什麼問題年輕的選民是不是他有一些投票障礙我們怎麼樣讓他更能夠參與因為這些人畢竟都是未來國家的新生力量所以今天的問題焦點是什麼怎麼去促進特定投票率偏低的選民讓他們可以去投票不只是只有青年"},{"start":4059.844,"end":4076.281,"text":"那有人提出了什麼 不再急投票有人提出了 欸 多放一天假哪一個解放比較早啊大家想想看 我們往下看其實呢 我們台灣的選舉制度剛剛已經有代表說了 學者說了現在很多"},{"start":4077.322,"end":4094.358,"text":"進步的技術我們都回歸到最簡單有效的方法就是紙本投票我先舉個例 台灣的紙本投票多厲害亞利桑那的登記選民只有260萬台灣是多了他10倍但是我們可以在6個小時內清點紙本投票"},{"start":4095.9,"end":4122.467,"text":"連馬斯克也說台灣的開票很厲害我們台灣的投票選舉公平透明而且長期的累積的信任還有公開唱票你去哪個國家的選舉可以看到這個制度這是台灣很珍貴的資產跟台灣的健保一樣寶貴啊是怎麼形成的超過半個世紀我們再往下看當時一開始投票這個事情政府怎麼去保障就是投票當天大家有價可以去投嘛"},{"start":4123.14,"end":4149.86,"text":"所以大家有沒有發現一開始要讓公民去投票政府想出來的 社會想出來的第一方法就是放假嘛就這麼簡單嘛但是放假有解決所有的問題嗎 沒有有哪些人沒有辦法去投票 我們先看一下這是基本人權喔但是有可能做生意的人有可能有一些備戰任務的人有可能一些24小時必須備勤的警校啊 救護人員 醫院的這些人這些人有辦法放到假嗎顯然沒有辦法"},{"start":4152.304,"end":4171.39,"text":"所以放假不能解決所有的問題好 那開始有人去思考說那如果有放假不能解決問題的時候那我們用什麼方法來解決他們問題所以往往是要解決一個問題又跑出了其他的問題所以就像說你有時候要解決一個病症頭痛 我吃個普拿疼"},{"start":4172.601,"end":4186.361,"text":"這次頭痛比較嚴重吃兩顆普拿疼有人說不對你不是上次吃普拿疼有效你就吃兩顆你應該去給醫生看搞不好要打客流感沒有錯同樣的問題我要繼續去解決我可以沿用原來的解方給它強化"},{"start":4187.603,"end":4207.977,"text":"我也可以另批蹊徑遭受其他的解方所以現在有兩個解方一個是既然當時為了讓人民去投票就規定一定要給勞工假一天那現在給兩天有沒有更有效又或者說那我們改成不在籍投票有沒有比較有效往下看所以這次的投票我們的這個法案設計提前放假我們了解選舉不是投票那一剎那的行為"},{"start":4212.779,"end":4234.264,"text":"大家以為只要票投進去那一剎那 讓他可以投進去了可以表達了 就完成了選舉嗎 不對你經常買車 甚至買個手機 要不要考量預算要不要去貨比三家 上網上去搜尋 衡量你的需求比較哪些功能符合你的滿足選舉啊 是選民在挑什麼 挑候選人不是投票那一刻才決定啊 參與"},{"start":4236.809,"end":4263.305,"text":"我們只顧及到投票那一刻的便利忽略到在投票前一刻一刻之前的討論了解這都很重要所以相較於不在籍投票那一剎那提供的便利跟多提供一天的假期讓選民有機會好好的去思考我要投給誰誰才是我合適的人這就是重點再往下看所以呢這次民主投票的促進強化民主投票促進法裡面呢"},{"start":4263.991,"end":4290.101,"text":"他就做了這些 譬如說有沒有在這次去年的發生了一些干擾選舉的方式有啊 密錄器啊 看看你們罷免的人有沒有誰去投罷免票啊是不是 以前只是不能窺視 刺探投票隱私現在選民有沒有去投開票所都變成是一些干擾選舉的行為了那這要不要防範 防範的方式有幾種啊一個是在原來選辦法加強啊 在刑法加強啊你也可以另訂刑法加強啊 我強調"},{"start":4292.332,"end":4314.059,"text":"一個問題 複雜的問題沒有單一的解方 大家可以考慮所以今天公聽會就要考慮各種可能再往下看我們看一看有沒有人真的真的去了解這個選務流程 我幫大家複習一下在場有選務官員 有很多學者專家你們看一看你們知道一個選舉有多複雜嗎首先你要先決定什麼 投開票手的位置然後你要臨派選務人員"},{"start":4315.598,"end":4341.847,"text":"照冊公告要公告什麼這個區域的選舉人名冊然後你要接收選票那當天你要來投票人要確認他的戶籍查驗他的身份正確的領給他選票投票只是一個動作之後還有開櫃取票檢票唱票計票統計包裝會診要保存證據才能宣布當選台灣有多厲害這一連串的事情提前一個多月前作業"},{"start":4342.611,"end":4360.849,"text":"在當天四點截止投票 晚上八點前又開出票來這是台灣奇蹟 世界奇蹟可是這個有多複雜你知道嗎 往下看投開票所 第一個你以為很簡單嗎 台灣有投開票所有將近一萬九千個投開票所"},{"start":4362.242,"end":4373.645,"text":"那我們看107跟109比較那時候平均每個投開票數大概1300到1500人到了109年降到1200人減300人要增加多少增加到1000多個投開票數"},{"start":4374.741,"end":4402.874,"text":"投開票所的規模很重要嗎當然重要啊你不能距離選民太遠啊到開車40分鐘才能到在原鄉的地方可以嗎所以你看原鄉的選投開票所啊投票是很辛苦的不亞於你從台北坐高鐵回屏東投票啊所以呢投開票所人數過多會影響到什麼開票的速度明顯在哪裡台北市投票所的人數如果過多開票就很頭痛往下看所以不在一起投票哪些問題呢第一"},{"start":4403.484,"end":4424.183,"text":"如果你要選擇不再去投票你要讓將近兩千萬個合格公民去告訴選務機關我打算在哪裡投啊這就是一個浩大的工程欸你要問將近一千九百五十萬的合格選民你打算在哪裡投票我有多少投票讓你選我有一萬九千個投票讓你選一萬九千個讓你選讓一千九百五十萬人選"},{"start":4426.171,"end":4451.127,"text":"100個人選一個投開票的比例這個作業有多大 有沒有想過再往下看如果不管這個決定了 候選人怎麼知道我的選民在哪裡我的選民 我是侃體鄉的鄉長 我要選鄉長侃體鄉投票公民數才1萬人有多少外地人口 他選在哪裡投票我去哪裡跟他拉票所以選舉人名冊的公告就是讓候選人知道說你的選民在哪裡"},{"start":4451.874,"end":4480.612,"text":"目前的看法目前的做法看起來在籍投票很笨但是至少戶籍明確我知道他不在家我就跟他爸爸媽媽說我來拜訪過了希望他投給我我們如果是不在籍投票我就看幾個組合這幾種排列組合如果在台北某個投票所有這麼多有屏東台南金門花蓮台中的選民去登記每一個選民的選票組合有多少大家想想看要不要再重複第一章我們有多少的鄉鎮市民代表"},{"start":4481.431,"end":4508.738,"text":"好 結果是什麼 往下看就是投票的選務混亂我曾經跟我們屏東的鄉長 鄉民代表說你算計 要現在平常是怎麼當選 怎麼當選鄉長的選票就一個鄉啊你四點截止投票他不到六點就知道自己可以宣布當選了現在不一樣啦因為那個鄉長他的鄉民很多在哪裡旅外啊 北漂啊"},{"start":4509.997,"end":4538.293,"text":"他們的票什麼時候開出來 晚上12點啊我要宣布當選 以前我只要6點就可以宣布當選了現在都要等啊 等到我那個鄉的鄉民有在不在一起投票的地方票都開出來了 都統計出來了 彙整回來潭嶺鄉公所 我們有縣選委會 有鄉的選委會他彙整這些票數 他才知道他有沒有當選你知道嗎 在我們那裡的村長跟里長啊常常差5票以內當選的啊"},{"start":4540.735,"end":4565.149,"text":"幾百票對幾百票嘛 大家有沒有想過這個問題大家想到選民要不再去投票他也很囉嗦啊 來往下看我如果去說我要再不再去投票第一這是不是我的確實意願 我要怎麼去選擇 我要本人去辦嗎如果有人可以冒名說 鍾亞斌我本來在我的戶籍所要調調有人把我冒名去登記在台北要怎麼查核 這個是不是事實的"},{"start":4566.414,"end":4573.757,"text":"那我是不是要先跑一趟我為了這個投票我要事先去本人去我想要投開票所那個地方的戶籍我本人我要在你這裡投票對選民有比較好嗎再來萬一我忘記了呢有些選民他可能就辦了上網如果越便利我上網選擇選擇完了之後就像我那個7-11啊我網購之後啊"},{"start":4587.458,"end":4613.159,"text":"全台灣有將近一萬六千個7-11隨便我選什麼時候送達有嗎 有沒有有沒有 電到電很多人很習慣網購 指定哪一個7-11去取你通常會指定你住的地方的附近嘛萬一哪天你出差 你在那邊取你忘記了你在哪裡登記了選舉投票當天 糟糕了我登記我在哪裡投票我可能今年換了地址 換了工作點耶這都很多的事情嘛"},{"start":4616.018,"end":4644.769,"text":"我會白跑一趟啊所以有可能我被人家冒名登記到別的投開票所我當天去我的戶籍所不能投有可能我忘了我登記在哪裡了我怎麼辦所以說一個制度的變革為什麼會有入境依賴因為你越熟悉的解方你越了解問題出在哪裡所以如果說我們說多放假一天來解決投票的問題大家都知道多放一天會什麼問題會有人跑出去玩嘛因為現在兩天就有人跑出去玩了嘛"},{"start":4645.803,"end":4668.322,"text":"這些問題都存在也都很好評估但是我換了新的解方你真的不曉得我去打了客流感會不會有併發症會不會有副作用所以有人選擇說那我吃一顆普拿疼不夠我再吃兩顆普拿疼我必須承認沒有辦法是完美的辦法因為有層出不窮的問題你沒想說一個解方就會跑出一些併發的後遺症我們總是在這些問題跟解方當中不斷的循環"},{"start":4673.584,"end":4697.655,"text":"所以今天這個法案它不是一個完美的解方但是它用我們熟悉的方法來解決我們已知的問題有沒有效可以試試看但是用我們未知的方法會跑出這麼多未知的問題我剛剛提出來的問題我們目前在倡議不在即投票的人有多少人想過因為大部分人都是選民我想的比選民多一點因為我曾經是候選人"},{"start":4698.277,"end":4711.58,"text":"所以我知道候選人在投票當天的心情候選人在平常去拜訪選民他需要的一些資訊當你做了不在籍投票之後這些事情都會產生變化將會影響到剛剛超過了一萬一千多個應選名額的當選人他們在當選之前可能有兩倍或三倍的候選人要面對同樣的困擾"},{"start":4723.112,"end":4742.161,"text":"所以我是建議當我們要解決一個問題的時候要思考一下用熟悉的方式還是用新的方式會不會碰觸新的問題還是我們要辦法應付既有的問題 以上好我們謝謝鍾委員那我們接下來請曲兆祥教授"},{"start":4773.01,"end":4798.178,"text":"主席在座的各位女士先生首先謝謝大院的邀請讓我關心了差不多三十年的議題今天能夠在大院能夠有一個公開的表達的機會嘉賓委員剛剛離開了我跟鍾嘉賓中委員在1996年我們一起當選第三屆的國民大會代表"},{"start":4801.799,"end":4814.966,"text":"那麼從那一年到現在算起來差不多接近30年了我個人推這個不在籍關心這個啦關心不在籍投票的這個議題大概關心了30年我立場從來沒有改變過"},{"start":4816.787,"end":4840.485,"text":"那麼基於 只是基於一個民主的信念因為我相信民主絕對不是只是選舉口號絕對不是選舉口號選舉它是一個制度選舉它是一個生活那麼所以那個時候我跟嘉賓委員我們一起在當國民大會代表的時候我記得我就曾經提案過當然不會成 我心裡很有數當然不會成"},{"start":4842.546,"end":4867.472,"text":"到現在為止30年之後不再去投票我們仍然在討論當中不過值得我稍微安慰一點就是30年的時間我們至少往前走了一小步因為現在國會至少用公聽的方式很認真的在討論這個問題我看社會上也有不少的公共論壇關切這一個議題這表示說這個議題比起30年前它已經往前"},{"start":4868.112,"end":4879.785,"text":"踏了一小步而已但是這一小步很重要就像Armstrong當年講的那一句話他個人的一小步是人類的一大步同樣的那一句話我到現在為止對"},{"start":4880.424,"end":4898.881,"text":"不再去投票仍然有一份的堅持因為我相信我剛剛講了民主的本身它是一個制度它是一個生活那麼它是基於很多的信念我有一個基本的信念就是政治權利是人生而應該待生而"},{"start":4900.151,"end":4924.441,"text":"应有的一种权利是与生俱来的我相信今天在座很多人是政治系出身的我相信不管是像我这样的老头子或者是像在座各位很多年轻刚刚离开大学之门不久的我相信你们都还记得老师们曾经引用过洛克或者是卢梭的话人生而自由却实实是在捆绑当中"},{"start":4927.643,"end":4947.889,"text":"從自然法的觀點來講人的生命 人的財產 人的自由是不能夠被剝奪的1966年聯合國通過了公民與政治權利的公約也就是一般我們講的兩公約而且很驕傲的說中華民國在1967年就已經同意要就已經同意成為締約國 只是說"},{"start":4952.492,"end":4973.859,"text":"我們因為後面的聯合國的席位的關係我們後來真正成為締約國是已經到了21世紀以後的事情但是我們是締約國 對不對它有一個最基本的一個價值就是我們承認政治權利是一個人的基本政治權利各位 只要是基本政治權利"},{"start":4974.258,"end":5001.979,"text":"他就不能夠任意被剝奪不管他是基於什麼因素所以我今天主張的不再去投票還包括著沒有被判刑沒有被確定為褫奪公權的人他都應該擁有投票權當然我也必須承認一個現實人有的時候理想跟現實之間他會有一點點距離因此他可能會受到現實制度的一些約制也就是限制這就是魯碩講的"},{"start":5003.81,"end":5021.387,"text":"卻人生而自由卻是在處處都在捆綁當中這個捆綁就是一種限制可是這個限制在座一定也有法律系出身的捆綁跟限制是不是一定要符合比例的原則是的"},{"start":5023.254,"end":5048.245,"text":"不再進行投票如果我們現在改革進行不再進行投票它是會有很帶來一些新的問題這個我覺得我從來不會否認就像剛剛鍾嘉賓中委員講的這個吃流感的藥物可以吃流感會帶來其他的問題不只是流感的藥我們全戰時間政府到今天為止還叫我們拼命去叫我們打了我個人打了5劑COVID-19大家都嚇死了有沒有"},{"start":5054.895,"end":5068.132,"text":"然後現在打 現在打完以後大家要告訴那個打多了很危險所以政府現在還在拼命推說請大家要去打那個抗這個COVID-19的病毒的藥有沒有 有沒有風險當然有"},{"start":5071.107,"end":5088.082,"text":"可是各位記得嗎那一年我們國內連沒有疫苗的時候連AZ日本人不打的AZ送到台灣來我們都視為治保各位還記得嗎就在幾年前的事情還有人用特權去打那個針各位都還記得吧"},{"start":5090.694,"end":5120.334,"text":"有沒有風險有風險有沒有副作用有副作用有沒有問題當然有問題可是這是不是表示說他就可以不做因為政治權利人生而自由人生而就應該擁有政治權利可是因為在執行過程當中會有很多的問題所以我們就剝奪他所以我們就把那些犯人沒有被判刑的此多公權的人關在牢裡面的不准投票基於國家安全的理由有一些跟國家安全相關的人員不准投票"},{"start":5123.316,"end":5144.269,"text":"當然他不是法律上說的不準他是用行政限制各位我再講一遍必要的限制這是我們講的necessary evil那個是可以被理解的但是他要按照比例原則要想盡辦法把它縮到最小最小不是嗎"},{"start":5145.768,"end":5174.653,"text":"所以我剛才聽了很多尤其特別是我們年輕學者這個我看得很高興我們政治學界一直有年輕化的動力還蠻大的但是很多都談到非常細節的問題談到很多技術性的問題各位相信中華民國的公務員我自己做過四年我在台北市政府跟常任的公務員們合作過四年的時間我太了解台灣公務員就像剛才鍾嘉斌總委員講的一點都不錯"},{"start":5177.39,"end":5202.712,"text":"我就講2018年那一年有石巷公投跟這個縣市長一起投票好像是2018年沒有錯應該沒有錯那一年投票投到開票開到半夜各位還記得吧各位你們知道嗎第二天以後第二天是禮拜天禮拜一恢復上班以後我們很多公務員那一天累到起不來上不了班很多人心裡還有一些狀況我們還要協助"},{"start":5205.48,"end":5217.225,"text":"人事部門去做一些心理輔導的工作可是中華民國的公務員完成了這樣子的挑戰所以請各位相信中華民國的公務員你只要不要把政治的手"},{"start":5218.544,"end":5236.805,"text":"深入到他正常的行政程序裡面去他會克服那些難題那些技術性的問題是可以被克服的而且我最後我還要再講一個不在即投票不等於完全等於電子投票當然電子投票可以"},{"start":5237.345,"end":5264.702,"text":"成為不在一起投票的一種方式可是這兩者之間沒有等號我知道我們到今天為止我們大概勉勉強強還可以接受一點點的其實就是還是用紙本只是用不在一起投票那這些很多技術性的問題我現在都不談我今天時間限制我都不談但是我可以告訴各位結論它都可以一項一項一項被克服它會不會浮現出來制度如果採用它會不會浮現出來會"},{"start":5266.667,"end":5289.612,"text":"但是它可不可以被解決可以 這就對了嘛好 主辦機關另外還設定了一些問題我用PPT的直接去回答了我再講 最後講一句話民族政治它是一種制度 它是一種生活它是一種基本價值選擇它甚至你可以說它是一個執念"},{"start":5290.792,"end":5306.121,"text":"這個我完全同意而且我也有這樣子的執念可是既然是執念它就必須要變成信念我們要堅持它去解決問題而不是因為問題而放棄我們的理念或者執念謝謝好 謝謝曲教授那我們接下來請賴宗強律師"},{"start":5322.789,"end":5324.97,"text":"主席各位先進我想我今天我就用這個簡報來向各位做說明基本上我想表達的觀點就是今天這個草案所提出的我姑且它稱為"},{"start":5347.048,"end":5375.494,"text":"故鄉民主價這樣的概念應該會遠優於全面不在籍投票那我這邊要對話的對象全面不在籍投票在目前的大院審理的議案中我指的是台灣民眾黨所提出的草案而不是前一陣子大家看到中國國民黨委員提案所通過的已經刪讀的"},{"start":5376.69,"end":5398.08,"text":"原住民中央選舉的不在籍投票因為那個我們已經刪除的原住民不在籍投票他只限原住民再來他只限於中央的選舉但是如果我們要接下來大院1月12號以後那個協商期滿要可以"},{"start":5402.335,"end":5429.937,"text":"可以二讀三讀的如果真的通過台灣民眾黨的全面不在籍投票的話那會是一個非常大的衝擊有多大的衝擊可能很多人都沒有想到那在這種情況下我會認為去推動與投票前一天多一放一天假同樣可以達到便利投票的結果那但是卻可以免除很多的風險那首先呢"},{"start":5432.524,"end":5454.218,"text":"大家看到這張照片這個是嘉義的中山路的圓環這個在嘉義的民主政治上是非常有意義的在地特色那我用這張照片想表達的就是說所謂的參與民主反鄉參與在地民主"},{"start":5455.66,"end":5471.517,"text":"才是關鍵參與民主不應該僅僅只是返鄉投票也不應該僅僅只是你把嘉義的選票移轉到台北市讓嘉義的遊子可以做不在籍投票就是"},{"start":5472.858,"end":5500.098,"text":"所謂參與在地民主真正的民主參與如果嘉義北漂的子弟能夠便利他參與的話就是選舉前放一天假讓他可以到嘉義園環去看去參與選舉的最後造勢然後去跟他的家人討論要投票給誰這樣才是真正的民主深化"},{"start":5501.69,"end":5516.805,"text":"那接下來我就來談說為什麼台灣民眾黨你如果不是用故鄉民主價然後要便利全國的南漂北漂的人都可以便利投票"},{"start":5517.808,"end":5544.329,"text":"全面的不在籍投票然後台灣民眾黨的版本是移轉投票的話他會發生什麼問題那首先我要說明的是那個我本身呢在2004年的時候那個時候連送提出當選無效之訴以及選舉無效之訴我是中選會的訴訟代理人那就我所參與的訴訟過程看到了一些選務來看"},{"start":5546.931,"end":5574.491,"text":"這樣的台灣民眾黨的不在籍投票全面實施移轉投票以後可能發生的問題跟各位做一個報告第一個我想說的是所有的制度第一次實施都容易出錯所以不在籍投票最好我們如果希望它真的能夠推動的話應該要循序漸進目前已經開了一個口"},{"start":5575.051,"end":5599.568,"text":"就從原住民的中央選舉開始我覺得這是好事但是你如果很快的你要跳成台灣民眾黨的全面不在籍投票的話那會出什麼事各位看到左邊這個照片是我國歷史上的第一次的公投那當年呢2004年的時候也是公投榜大選"},{"start":5600.689,"end":5626.516,"text":"那當時發生了什麼問題呢我們跳到右邊來看這個是我所受理的訴訟裡面呢當時聯送的訴訟代理人他就說啊全國有一萬七千兩百九十二張幽靈票幽靈票是什麼意思他說開出來的票比選舉人名冊簽名蓋章的領票數還多出一萬七千多張天啊"},{"start":5627.902,"end":5649.822,"text":"這多恐怖的事啊那天那次選舉最後最後那個兩個候選的差距是非常少的那他又主張幽靈票又主張遺失票那這樣不就是全部加起來就大於連送跟這個扁呂的差距數了嗎結果法院調查的結果是怎樣"},{"start":5650.984,"end":5659.536,"text":"因為他是第一次實施同時有公投的選舉人名冊又有總統的選舉人名冊那選務人員把他弄反了"},{"start":5660.545,"end":5687.17,"text":"有全部弄反的也有一半弄反的所以為了處理這個問題後來我打這個官司我們就設了很多二元一次方程式然後把他的公投的領票投票總統的領票投票全部一起算最後法院開宴的結果確實是一回事這麼一回事他是因為選舉人名冊弄錯了你同時進行總統選舉跟公投選舉"},{"start":5690.807,"end":5714.462,"text":"後來這種事情到第二年第三年第二次第三次即使是公投跟總統一起選舉這種情況因為有了前車之鑒大家就知道怎麼改進那同樣的道理如果我們這個台灣民眾黨的版本要這樣通過2026年就要實施全面不在籍投票那個情況會有多複雜大家來看一下"},{"start":5716.274,"end":5740.235,"text":"第一個是選票運送跟選票外流的風險大家看到左邊這張是中國國民黨中央黨部發的他是在指出說這個嘉義在2018年選舉的時候有333張選票流出這選票外流那這就會是一個很大的這個選舉影響選舉公信力的紛爭"},{"start":5741.696,"end":5769.843,"text":"那為什麼會有選票流出是不是有人要作票那中共國民黨就提出這樣的指控那最後這個發現是不是這麼回事那檢察官也做了不起訴處分但是這個就對選舉的公信力造成了衝擊那為了這樣嘉義市在點選票的時候他要每一個人收聲確保選票不外流那各位想想看如果我們連"},{"start":5772.304,"end":5787.697,"text":"正常的沒有不在籍投票這個選票的點選要這麼謹慎都要到收生了那如果我們還有移轉投票移轉投票可能怎麼移轉你不要說一萬多個投票所對一萬多個投票所"},{"start":5788.277,"end":5808.256,"text":"你把它限縮成範圍22縣市對22縣市你要把22縣市的選票送到其他21個縣市總共有22乘以21等於462個運送路線你怎麼確保這中間選票不外流再來"},{"start":5810.475,"end":5834.342,"text":"我們統計一下如果2026就要這樣全面不再集投票移轉投票的話那是九合一大選總共有九種選票嗎不是 不是九種選票直轄市縣市總共有22種選票鄉鎮市長198種選票直轄市原住民區長6種選票村里長抱歉這個數字是歷史村里數16281個歷史村里"},{"start":5837.763,"end":5866.525,"text":"現在的有效村裡7000多個直轄市議員總共有79個選區縣市議員總共有135個選區鄉鎮市民代表抱歉我沒有數因為我來不及數就是198個鄉鎮市乘以N然後直轄市原住民區代表就有16個選區那這麼多的選票你要怎麼運送你怎麼確保這個過程不會出錯然後再來"},{"start":5868.101,"end":5891.721,"text":"還不只是選票的運送而已你要計票的時候所有的選務人員都知道他們有一個數字的鐵律這個鐵律不能錯就是這上面各位看到的這個數字也就是有效票數加無效票數再加已領未投票數加上用於票數必須等於原領票數也就是選舉人數"},{"start":5894.52,"end":5916.507,"text":"對選務人員最後開票以後這個就是有點像會計人員你的帳要平你的那個帳要平如果帳不平的話你要找出原因那我開一個沒有不在籍投票的九合一選舉我是九個帳要平九種選舉我開九種選票九個帳要平到時候"},{"start":5922.403,"end":5939.389,"text":"到時候如果有全面不再集投票 移轉投票八九千種選票一起選每個投開票所你有八九千個帳要平你看這個公式你到時候要算多久然後再來"},{"start":5940.515,"end":5965.632,"text":"冒名申請跟妨害投票這是一個非常嚴重的問題我們注意到台灣民眾黨的不在籍投票的草案它關於怎麼申請不在籍投票它是說你在投票60日前按照主管機關要求的格式申請然後在60日前送達戶籍地的直轄市縣市委員會也就是說它是書面申請"},{"start":5966.733,"end":5991.641,"text":"用寄信的送達不要求本人拿出身份證去戶政事務所核對本人確實是你本人來申請那問題就來了我們隨便冒名倒刻一個比如說不好意思主席張宏祿的移轉投票申請我刻一個張某某的張蓋上去"},{"start":5993.82,"end":6003.878,"text":"我知道他的戶籍地址要申請移轉投票到時候我們的主席發現說我要去投票的時候我怎麼不能投票我的票被移轉走了這樣的"},{"start":6006.555,"end":6026.422,"text":"會衍生很多投票當日的糾紛而且在競爭對手的優勢選區這個確實會造成有心人來降低對手得票數的妨礙選舉的不當選舉手段這種事情有沒有其實已經有現實上的做法是"},{"start":6028.973,"end":6051.966,"text":"台灣曾經有一些會選它的會選方式不是我向你買票你投票給我而是我到敵對陣營的優勢選區去買票我買票說你的身份證我先幫你保管你不要投票等到投票截止時間了以後我再把身份證還給你到時候不用買票了"},{"start":6054.1,"end":6073.379,"text":"對手的優勢選區去做大量的冒名移轉投票所以最後要說的是其實我看到螢幕前的提案中國國民黨的全面不再急投票並沒有排上禁覆二讀的議程"},{"start":6075.322,"end":6091.839,"text":"那反而走到最前面的是台灣民眾黨我不曉得為什麼是不是民眾黨真的這麼勇敢的要來搶當這個白老鼠要在那個2026年的九合一大選讓接近九千種選票"},{"start":6094.761,"end":6113.278,"text":"9000種選票可以在全台灣各地來申請不在籍移轉投票我覺得還是中國國民黨的原住民立委那個主張比較穩健比較漸進一點我們先從原住民的中央層級的"},{"start":6115.595,"end":6134.444,"text":"移轉投票從這個地方來慢慢摸索那發現制度有什麼問題檢討問題再穩健的走出下一步謝謝好謝謝賴律師我們接下來請仇桂美教授蔣桂美教授主席在座各位先進大家好"},{"start":6145.356,"end":6162.864,"text":"我活到這把年紀好像現在很少有人念錯了所以我們還是要多交流這個剛才還有一件事可能要確認一下我們發言時間到底是多久因為我發現前一位時間好像超過我的發言時間是多久每位8分鐘因為剛剛停止以後如果還沒講完我們會制度延長OK 好 謝謝大概幾個重點"},{"start":6175.287,"end":6199.937,"text":"我发现走这个imperial实证主义的人会非常强调过去发生的错误但是有些错误跟他的所谓的投票方式未必是直接因果关系很多的错误不管你用哪一种方式他都会有错误只是我们要相对评估哪一种错误他的可能性可以降到最低"},{"start":6200.615,"end":6207.945,"text":"這是第一個問題第二個我們一定要去思考不同的投票方式我們到底要進行什麼"},{"start":6209.266,"end":6230.482,"text":"可是我發現我們一直在負面思考這種方式錯誤很多那種方式風險很高另外一種方式這個可說不可做那到最後我們的這個所謂踐行民主政治的一個基本原則它的軸心到底是什麼我們今天所以要投票是要踐行一人一票每票等值"},{"start":6231.503,"end":6249.151,"text":"我們不犧牲任何一個人表意對政治上的機會所以我們希望把投票的這個機率能夠克服的這個最大的這個變數降到最低然後還給每一個人最基本的參政權我想這是一個核心的價值"},{"start":6250.034,"end":6272.834,"text":"那在這個價值之上我覺得回到每個人的投票權不管他是公投我們這個主辦單位很費心寫了三個議題不管他是選舉罷免 公投等等他都是一個投票行為只是他用什麼方式去表意而已所以我覺得一人一票 每票等值這個基本原理是我們一定要去掌握的"},{"start":6273.715,"end":6299.864,"text":"那我相信在過去所有的經驗裡面你會發現因為我在監察院辦過很多相關的案子時間非常有限我在書面裡面只提了一個只提了一個這個所謂的監察院調查報告109年的內調0078號那事實上我自己還調查過很多相關的案件譬如說2018的十五項公投這個綁大選"},{"start":6302.295,"end":6329.58,"text":"那時候的問題到底是什麼大部分人都會認為說因為公投綁大選所以之後就把它脫鉤了那現在又勾起來了但是真正的問題在哪裡真正的問題是它的投票動線它現場混亂那我們當然可以說那我們以後公投門檻拉高那實務上我們真的就變成這樣公投門檻拉得非常高所以現在公投案非常難成立"},{"start":6330.915,"end":6337.028,"text":"結果呢 你主辦單位你責任降低了 你錯誤變少了但是 你出現了反民主的行為"},{"start":6338.582,"end":6361.583,"text":"這是我們要的嗎 當然不是啊所以我們思考的問題必須很清楚所以第二個呢這個除了剛剛講的問題那如果回到實務譬如說我們在疫情期間很多司法體系裡面開始考慮說這個當事人可能不適合出庭他沒有辦法來他可能得了這個Omicron或什麼所以當時有考慮到遠距"},{"start":6366.13,"end":6390.35,"text":"後來有些地院小幅度的在某些項目上採用了一點點推行的顯然不好後來疫情也結束了不了了之然後我們的行政救濟法裡面剛才講的那個是訴訟開庭我們的行政程序法裡面我們約束政府機關的時候我們要求要書面"},{"start":6391.519,"end":6411.182,"text":"所以政府機關常常變得效率很差像我們在監察院有些重要的案子你等一天跟不等那差太多了你等一天單身根本就不見了那搞不好出境了所以你速度要快啊那所以呢我們常常用傳真當天下午就約他來他不來我們自己就過去了然後馬上補書面"},{"start":6412.743,"end":6428.211,"text":"所以很多的思維我覺得會是重點就我們一直停留在哪一種過去會出現什麼問題如果要舉問題我們的問題太多了這個我們我過去辦了一個查水表案我們俗稱叫查水表"},{"start":6429.454,"end":6453.42,"text":"那這個柴水表案裡面呢 它最主要適用的是什麼是社會秩序維護法 63條的一項無款所謂的什麼呢 所謂的散播謠言啊足以影響公共之安寧者後來我不查還好 我一查不得了我發現只要碰到選舉 選前的一兩個月那個案子馬上就飆上來了 一堆人被查"},{"start":6455.06,"end":6466.011,"text":"那選後呢 又開完票了 大家不關心了就選後幾乎都沒事啊那你到底在查什麼你查了半天都沒事欸選舉的時候標那麼高那這到底在幹嘛所以 這叫什麼 這叫寒蟬效應欸"},{"start":6471.556,"end":6487.456,"text":"所以我們的行政作為裡面我們要自己公權力想辦法克服各種可能出現的弊端而不是因為弊端道果為因去相對造成投票者選民的不方便"},{"start":6488.937,"end":6515.154,"text":"選民本來就有公權上的這個所謂的投票權我們應該想辦法讓他有一個非常方便的環境然後行政自我要去約束但是行政自我約束我覺得蠻困難的所以監督機制非常重要為什麼呢我們過去我就不談哪個機關了我記得總統府考試院這個個資都外洩過"},{"start":6517.051,"end":6545.468,"text":"有的個資外洩還是我在檢察院辦的當然外洩的原因後來都找出來了也都糾正那為什麼前車之鑒不能造成後事之事呢所以我們一直在負面思考我會認為那這個問題是無解的再三十年也是一樣本來就是AI時代到了我們今天在學校教書非常清楚你要跟學生你智慧一定要超過學生為什麼"},{"start":6546.584,"end":6554.629,"text":"那AI隨便一問報告就出來了他了不起再問一下有哪個相關著作那個著作又出來了他再問一下第幾頁又出來了那你老是要幹嘛"},{"start":6558.541,"end":6581.398,"text":"你老是要很清楚他的邏輯清不清楚他有沒有道果為因他的邏輯推演上到底有沒有可證性而不是一直在講說各種錯誤的發生造成我們不能做這個不能做那個我覺得這個思維是錯的所以其他的建築書面我書面上寫得很清楚如果以經費來看"},{"start":6583.803,"end":6608.216,"text":"大罷免也是投票啊大罷免花了多少錢十幾億啊照花面不改色那今天你全國性的公投公投有很多種嘛可能是投 我說的投票行為可能是公投 可能是選舉 可能是罷免如果以成本來看當然要考慮不在其他的成本的降低性"},{"start":6611.079,"end":6629.899,"text":"所以我覺得我們有非常多的 variable變相 字變相 音變相等等但是我們必須抽絲剝繭 因果清楚然後要克服種種的困難所以我還可以再多三分鐘嗎三分鐘做一個小節"},{"start":6634.164,"end":6659.921,"text":"那所以呢我談過在這個社委法呢過去的查水表案啊到選舉期間很多後來我們自己請來的國際人權專家評估我們的問題是什麼我們的問題根本不在這裡耶我們的問題在我們的很多法治的貫徹上它的這個透明性啊等等出了問題這個目前還在法務部的網站上掛著"},{"start":6661.681,"end":6683.839,"text":"所以我剛才看了速發部的報告看得非常失望因為他第一段是尊重大院我如果沒有記錯的話第二段好像沒什麼重點第三段好像切入重點了從頭到尾他只有那五行關鍵字他要幹嘛呢他要針對錯假訊息的管制那我覺得失望的原因是什麼"},{"start":6693.03,"end":6713.642,"text":"你針對錯假訊息管制的時候你是不是要讓表意的精神盡量去發展它是有橫平性的而你只看了管制這一方而你完全不提讓人民充分表意行使他的投票行為的這一塊你的見解是什麼所以"},{"start":6715.407,"end":6736.477,"text":"我覺得像這個人事總署或者是我如果沒記錯人事總署因為人事系統我待過很多老朋友但是我們針對的是事情人事總署提的報告裡面談到的也是尊重大院那當然也只能這樣寫可是我比較失望的是我們過去的譬如說軍警"},{"start":6738.058,"end":6758.99,"text":"公教這一類我們所謂的在這個我的書面的尾巴裡面呢有提到譬如說就算你特別投票所等等這一類我倒沒有特別贊成我的意思是說我們過去呢在2000年的總統大選的時候兩黨的總統候選人的差距不到三萬票"},{"start":6760.812,"end":6768.498,"text":"這麼近的差距還有一個非常關鍵的原因因為319槍擊案發生的當天管制的一堆人沒有辦法投票那如果我把這個焦點放大那我們為什麼一定要堅持老路呢很容易就剝削了一堆人他沒有辦法去投票"},{"start":6783.359,"end":6805.416,"text":"那請問一人一票每票等值的價值在哪裡所以希望大家能夠認真思考但最後一句話呢我覺得我參加的公聽會裡面這場是最和諧的為什麼呢因為大家心中都有淡淡的憂鬱因為對政府的治安系統實在不是太有信心那我們也希望政府能夠加油克服種種困難 謝謝"},{"start":6810.513,"end":6826.625,"text":"好 謝謝那我們繼續請黃澄漢研究員主席 各位委員 各位同仁 大家好我是經濟民主聯合智庫研究員我叫黃澄漢"},{"start":6827.645,"end":6848.344,"text":"那今天在討論這個不管是不在籍投票或是強化民主投票的這個促進法我首先想要先指出就是說國會目前在討論所謂的不在籍投票的時候它的立法意旨就是它核心的目的應該是在於這個提升公民的參與程度最直觀的指標就是提升投票率"},{"start":6849.085,"end":6868.97,"text":"那就這個目的而言我們首先要討論一件事情就是說縱觀世界上的國際經驗或是說國際在政治學上的學術的文獻各種形式的不在即投票是不是能達成這個效果在國際上是高度的歧異甚至在學術上是持反對的意見的結果比較多"},{"start":6869.75,"end":6893.543,"text":"那針對所謂的不在籍投票也就是所謂的便利投票這個形式有很多種我相信大家都已經非常清楚不用贅述那在這一次特別想要強調我們所稱的這個所謂的移轉投票這個制度對於投票率的影響然而即使是針對所有形式的便利投票的研究那比如說美國的選制中採取多種便利投票形式共存的制度"},{"start":6894.603,"end":6916.608,"text":"學者仍然沒有觀察到對於投票率有高度幫助的情況那比如說有一篇很重要的這個2008年的回顧性的文獻就顯示說這些措施它確實讓投票變得更方便這是沒有人會去質疑的但是它對投票率的提升效果是微乎其微at best a modest increase"},{"start":6917.068,"end":6934.779,"text":"更重要的是他們指出便利投票往往有助於的是那些已經會去投票的選民而不是擴大到參與擴大這個政治參與讓這社會經濟地位更低或是政治參與興趣更低的人來去投票所以這是所謂的便利投票的效果"},{"start":6935.259,"end":6960.197,"text":"那移轉投票也是一樣而移轉投票包含很多形式比如說所謂投票中心隨地投票甚至是實體提前投票都算是一種移轉投票的形式在這部分的經驗發現地點上的彈性確實會降低選民的投票成本這沒有人要質疑但是它會不會增加整體的投票率在學術研究上的發現還是很少甚至是覺得說沒有什麼幫助"},{"start":6961.278,"end":6976.343,"text":"所以就這個角度而言如果我們要討論的不在籍投票它的核心目的是在於提升大家的政治參與提升投票率的話我們要面臨一個非常誠實的問題是為了這項高度不可能達成立法目的"},{"start":6977.003,"end":6994.918,"text":"的改革我們要在行政上付出我們剛剛討論到的多少成本我們要在經濟上付出我們剛剛討論到的多少成本更嚴重的是在社會的信任上在政治的信任上我們要付出多少成本來達成這個目的那這是我們目前看不到的一個計算"},{"start":6996.28,"end":7023.672,"text":"那我想再強調一件事情是剛剛在討論的時候大家仍然在假設投票越便利必然等於參與度越高必然等於投票率越高這個假設我覺得是需要去討論的那比如說過去有人在討論這個便利投票的這些措施的改革的時候有些人發現這些便利投票措施越多事實上可能卻導致了這個投票率的降低為什麼會有這麼反直覺的"},{"start":7026.213,"end":7044.522,"text":"這種狀況出現那是因為這些學者提出一個假說他說傳統的選舉日大家一起聚在一起投票在前一天做政治的動員去做政治的討論它是一種重要的公民節日在選舉日的前幾天候選人會密切的在當地跟選民做互動"},{"start":7045.342,"end":7071.581,"text":"政黨會舉辦造勢活動讓選民來參與這種社會的動員的力道會讓人有投票的意願會讓他在投票的最後階段產生投票的意向也讓選民在參與這種集體政治活動的時候對於政治有正向的情感對於參與政治有更積極的表現促進了他們參與政治的可能但是並列投票的形式越多他可能會把這個選舉日"},{"start":7073.762,"end":7097.007,"text":"擴大到好幾週比如說開票的時間比如說移轉投票的時間那這會導致政黨和候選人在這個舉辦傳統的政治動員的活動的時候參與度變低導致政黨和候選人他可能更不願意去舉辦這種傳統的政治的活動更進而再導致公民暴露在這種政治氛圍的這種所謂政治節日的氣氛的"},{"start":7098.428,"end":7114.268,"text":"感受變低進而去導致選民在投票上的意願減少這是一個非常反直覺的討論但是他要去攻擊的就是我們剛剛一直都沒有討論的是投票越便利是不是就必然等於投票率越高的情形"},{"start":7115.16,"end":7140.897,"text":"所以我想要請大家再去思考說我們在立法的當初最重要的目的到底是什麼在說明完這樣子的這個便利投票研究之後我要轉而去討論說為什麼移轉投票或是各種形式的便利投票其實不一定適合在現在台灣的政治文化下採取那其實剛剛大家都討論到就是說過去台灣長期的有在選舉日舞弊的情形"},{"start":7141.457,"end":7161.372,"text":"那這些情況大多數發生在這個有限度的民主化的過程中但是在近年仍然持續有這種狀況可是我們公民因為選務機關的努力仍然對於選舉日的開票有相當程度的信心跟這個對於選舉結果的這個信任程度有相當的耐受"},{"start":7161.872,"end":7190.464,"text":"但這種耐受的程度它是非常非常容易被挑戰被破壞的因為我們的歷史一序讓我們對於這種選舉結果的這個破壞讓我們對於選舉的舞弊的質疑和陰謀論的忍受程度是非常低那過去原本想舉例子時間不夠過去三次選舉都有大規模的針對選舉結果的陰謀論那我想在座各位都非常清楚當時的政治狀況"},{"start":7191.764,"end":7215.275,"text":"再來就是說這種嚴重的選舉舞弊的政治的過敏還包含一件事情是台灣人民對於在選舉當天就獲知選舉的結果這件事情有高度的依賴在投完票之後去競選總部或是在家裡看開票在當天晚上馬上知道這次選舉的結果已經是台灣人民行使政治權利的慣習"},{"start":7216.696,"end":7244.859,"text":"那如果我們在現在要貿然的採取全面性的移轉投票的話如同剛剛已經有許多學者會提到的就是這個選舉開票的結果的週期可能會超過一天甚至如同像美國或是其他採取便利投票的先進國家可能要到一週才會知道選舉結果我認為這對於台灣選舉現在的激烈程度而言這幾天會成為有心人士破壞民主信任的窗口"},{"start":7245.62,"end":7261.153,"text":"那在台灣民主信任我覺得又要談到目前不適合貿然採取移轉投票的重要因素那就是這個對於買票而言像剛剛有提到的移轉投票會讓這件事情變得更簡單再來就是說境外勢力介入的問題"},{"start":7261.994,"end":7277.109,"text":"在過去我們就看到台氣連作為這個國台辦底下的這個半官方色彩的組織他已經在用所謂的優惠投票的方式來促使這個選舉結果的改變這是很明確的境外勢力介入的事實"},{"start":7277.87,"end":7301.878,"text":"那這個情況目前沒有 選務機關沒有 行政機關沒有任何方式可以去很好的解決這個問題如果有移轉投票的話台企聯不用花那麼多錢買到松山的機票 買到桃園的機票他只要用小三通請大家移轉投票到金門然後讓他們清訂的這些台灣選民可以從中國回到金門來做投票"},{"start":7303.598,"end":7325.527,"text":"他介入選舉的成本會降低不好意思 等兩分鐘他介入選舉的成本會降低就大概十倍左右也就是說他可以影響的人他可以動用的資源會影響到十倍多那我覺得對於我們台灣民主體制能不能承受這樣境外勢力的介入的傷害我覺得這是非常值得思考的一個問題"},{"start":7326.747,"end":7354.466,"text":"那回到討論這個強化民主投票促進法的草案我認為現在草案的民主價的形式可能會對於深化民主的參與有相對更正向且不帶負作用的效果那如同前面所述為了提高這個民主的參與如果你貿然的或說只是很單向的覺得我採取便利投票的措施就可以鼓勵大家做政治參與的話那可能反而會有反向的作用但是"},{"start":7356.668,"end":7373.297,"text":"試圖去做這個所謂的不在籍投票或是移轉投票它其實本質上就是把選民從家鄉抽離的一種投票的方式我們為何不去鼓勵他這個透過各種方式去降低他回到家鄉回到戶籍地去參與自己民主節日的投票脈絡"},{"start":7374.358,"end":7400.216,"text":"的過程中是不是可以反而讓這個民主的深化更加實現讓他更相信自己的這一票是在家鄉有作用同時也讓他能夠更了解自己戶籍地的這個政治的脈動那從這個角度而言我們覺得讓選民能夠真正的回到選區去參與在每個選區的民主的文化裡面或許才是促進選民參與政治的一個更有效的方式"},{"start":7401.338,"end":7420.405,"text":"根據這個2021年的資料全國所有地區的平均不在籍率是三成左右有三成的人不在籍這本身就是一個問題因為我們戶籍法其實是希望大家不要有人籍分離的問題但今天就沒有辦法討論這個問題不過我們仍然要肯認的是有許多人需要有這個"},{"start":7421.765,"end":7434.649,"text":"降低投票成本的狀況但是我們要去討論的是你的立法意旨最後會不會反而破壞了這個民主的核心也就是讓大家思辨讓大家互相討論去做政治決定的這個過程從這個角度來看我們覺得這個故鄉的民主價或許能夠讓台灣人有更積極的民主實踐的機會或許"},{"start":7442.011,"end":7458.1,"text":"比這個移轉投票更長遠來看它的成本更低還有政治的副作用更低但是能夠更長遠的去促進大家的投票參與可以更有效的讓離鄉的人有親近這個自己的戶籍的政治環境的機會那我也發言到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請紀和鈞教授"},{"start":7478.727,"end":7487.283,"text":"主席張宏祿委員然後各位學者專家然後各位機關代表大家好今天很高興能夠參與這個"},{"start":7489.524,"end":7516.862,"text":"強化民主投票促進法的草案的這個公聽會不過很有趣就是我們的題目是強化民主投票促進法的草案結果大家都在講不在投票因為學法律出身所以我還是建議我們先回到民主理論或者回到法的角度我們來討論然後再來思辨他是不是有不在即投票跟他這個那個所謂的這個"},{"start":7518.103,"end":7523.552,"text":"故鄉民族價之類的關係 這個故鄉民族價我還是今天第一次聽到還蠻有趣的一個名字"},{"start":7526.112,"end":7549.571,"text":"首先為什麼要投票這很簡單 如說18世紀就告訴我們因為統治者的統治應得被統治者同意所以要盡可能的讓大家都有機會表達他到底要不要同意現在的統治者或未來的統治者繼續統治所以才需要投票可是"},{"start":7551.943,"end":7563.47,"text":"我們這幾年的這個就應該說從20世紀以來我們開始認為民主不是只有投票啊民主還有討論啊民主還有資訊的公開啊民主還有互相的這個概念的這個交換啊結果我們到現在還在只講怎麼樣投票這樣子有沒有符合民主我個人是覺得我們可能要多想一想"},{"start":7580.728,"end":7609.759,"text":"我個人覺得我們在講這個所謂的選舉制度或者是選罷制度甚至包括公民投票制度其實它是有一個階段性的概念第一個因為我們的憲法規定我們有民主共和 抱歉這是民主共和原則我們要有民主原則我們要有共和原則所以我們希望讓越多的公民能夠參與公共政策的討論跟公共政策的決定不管是對人的或者是對事的"},{"start":7610.359,"end":7623.986,"text":"所以我們要鼓勵公民參與公共事務可是我們現在的討論裡面有沒有鼓勵公民參與公共事務好像沒有吧我們好像只是都在講你們要不要來投票你們如何投票但是"},{"start":7626.502,"end":7632.884,"text":"如同這個重要的政治學者他講過投票只是其中的一個你的事前的資訊是不是公開你的資訊是不是夠流通大家有沒有機會討論那個才是民主的真諦啊而不是只是投票啊可是我們有沒有討論這個我們在這個我們現行的不管是公職人員選舉罷免法或政府總統選舉罷免法或者是現在這個"},{"start":7657.218,"end":7685.8,"text":"民進黨黨團提出的強化民主投票促進法的草案裡面甚至是大家都一直在討論的民眾黨的所謂的全面不再提投票法草案好像都沒有提到鼓勵公民的參與公共事務這件事情這個是我覺得我們應該要先往前思考的部分第三個才是創設親民便利的"},{"start":7686.598,"end":7712.485,"text":"投票制度如何讓民眾能夠更方便更便利的去投票最後才是投完了這個結果能夠讓大家能夠服從多數統治多數同意的統治的這個治理的方向所以如果前面的沒有做到你要在後面說我們來少數服從多數多數尊重少數基本上是不太容易的"},{"start":7714.434,"end":7720.848,"text":"首先因為我們看了這個法案的這個草案的這個概念"},{"start":7721.513,"end":7736,"text":"我可以很明確的確定本法的草案的這個目的是創設親民投票制度這個好像就跟前面幾位先進所講的有一些相同有一些不同這個像我前面的這個發言的先進就講說便利投票好像不太對這個好像他沒有辦法改變這個這個投票率提升投票率可是不對啊我們看了整個的"},{"start":7752.159,"end":7780.056,"text":"這個草案裡面大家都是在要便利啊都是在便利選民去參與啊像那個我舉的這個第三個這個對我們國家考試尤其是法律系畢業的公共行政系畢業的這很重要國家考試啊國家考試不得於投票日或前一日舉辦這件事情非常重要那他是不是便利考生們去投票是啊他怎麼不是便利呢"},{"start":7781.584,"end":7790.15,"text":"大家要知道今年我們就因為在這個第一次大罷免投票的這一次剛好遇到什麼國家考試啊對不對那我們有幫考生們講過什麼嗎有沒有我們在座的先進們有沒有幫考生們講過話沒有啊所以其實強化民主投票促進法草案它的重點也是"},{"start":7810.842,"end":7837.261,"text":"如何的創設親民的投票制度第一個投票日跟前一日都放假這個其實真的在我最後再總結這個是一個很方便利的方法讓大家什麼不要都趕在投票日那天坐火車坐高鐵坐飛機回到故鄉第二個 明令各級政府提供公民反擊投票必要的交通補助及協助這個"},{"start":7839.507,"end":7867.057,"text":"預算可能蠻大的第三個我剛才講的國家考試第四個我覺得還蠻好的保障身心障礙者孕婦 孩童照顧者 年老者受監護宣告者 受輔助宣告者監督人 輔助人以及具學籍之公民行使投票不過這有點有趣受監護宣告者他怎麼投票難道在投票之前還去跟法院講說請你先解除我的監護宣告嗎"},{"start":7868.97,"end":7894.401,"text":"這個有點奇怪第五個 避免假消息的危害發生這個我覺得還不錯但是我認為強化民主投票促進法草案帶思考之處有以下四項第一個 我們已經過度受制戶籍制度使民眾難以就近實際居住地而便利投票"},{"start":7895.526,"end":7897.827,"text":"我曾經接受過相關內政部的委託我們做過戶籍制度的討論我們一個戶籍制度居然連接29種的公民權利跟社會補助我們有沒有過度的被它受制"},{"start":7916.594,"end":7934.506,"text":"第二個其實我們現在有不在籍投票制度除了剛剛先進所講的那個我們剛通過的這個公職人員選舉報名有57條的原住民投票以外其實選務人員可以在辦理選務的時候選擇是在戶籍地或者他工作地點選務工作地點"},{"start":7935.745,"end":7949.055,"text":"另外我們公民投票法25條有講要有不在地投票法的法制化所以是不是完全不可能或者已經我們從來沒有踏出過不在投票其實有啊第三個"},{"start":7951.754,"end":7979.733,"text":"我們國家因為我們已經很習慣都在週禮拜六投票其實很多國家以美國為例他們有做到禮拜二投票那他們就有講說那天要放假我們已經是高投票率的國家了你現在又要前一天又要再放假請再給我兩分鐘就結束那這樣子會不會影響產業營運啊能不能夠難以提升再提升投票率"},{"start":7981.619,"end":8010.824,"text":"還有這個也是第四項是學法律的人最重視的這個法條法案裡面大量的充斥空白授權行政機關定這個行政立法的而且很多的條文都跟現行法重複規範僅具宣誓性實役不明顯我舉個什麼例子就是如果今天這個交通部門他們不提供這個多開班次"},{"start":8011.277,"end":8040.915,"text":"我們要不要處罰他他是不是干擾投票我們這個法案裡面沒有啊法律法律要有構成要界法律效果最好不要都是宣示性個人建議的後續立法建議第一個我們在劉益洲老師在做中選會主委的時候就已經研究過了不在於投票辦法了已經研究很多年了真的可以用了第二個"},{"start":8041.653,"end":8065.11,"text":"我們軍警銷的投票權有沒有保障軍警銷有沒有保障第三個有些勞工不是領月薪他領日薪喔他一個月他固定要工作22天喔如果前一天投票投票前一天也放假他不滿他是沒有那個日薪的我們要不要全面補助他們再來啦協助在學學生投票其實我認為在學學生投票"},{"start":8071.676,"end":8100.114,"text":"其實很多學生他北漂或他到其他學校離他戶籍地不在同一個地方的大學的時候其實他跟那個大學跟附近的社區的連結比他在家鄉的連結還強可是我們跟他講說不行你只能回到你的故鄉去投票他為什麼不能夠參與他在他學校附近的社區的活動呢以上是我的這個不成熟的建議請這個大院參考 謝謝"},{"start":8102.162,"end":8130.459,"text":"好 謝謝那我們接下來請楊智傑教授各位好 我是雲林科技大學楊智傑我的報告會比較日本 南韓並評析各黨團目前的草案"},{"start":8133.703,"end":8159.324,"text":"先看民進黨提出的強化民主投票促進法草案其說明提到以色列 南韓 新加坡等國因放假有較高的投票率因而它草案建議將投票日及前一日均放假一日那麼比較世界各國所有的國家投票日都有放假"},{"start":8161.104,"end":8189.44,"text":"南韓週三投票放假以色列週二投票放假新加坡過去週五投票最近一次改成週六投票那台灣一直都是週六投票就放兩天假那如果要按照民進黨版的建議其實只要把投票日改成禮拜天就可以達到這個效果了"},{"start":8190.626,"end":8220.053,"text":"那世界上確實很多國家都是禮拜天投票例如歐洲國家但問題是現在週休二日年輕人週六不返鄉投票改成週日投票甚至可能以為的放三天真的就有用嗎我認為真正有用的方式還是要採取不在籍投票那不在籍投票有很多方式"},{"start":8222.408,"end":8250.065,"text":"這邊有一些方式我特別標出提前投票跟已轉投票是因為待會要做一些說明行政院有提出全國性公民投票不在籍投票法草案在行政院的法也願意嘗試採取不在籍投票但是他選擇最保守的方式"},{"start":8251.361,"end":8276.822,"text":"請接受需要現場投票的移轉投票但是到移轉到另外一個地去現場投票但行政院這個草案的方式超級嚴格必須在投票日前60日向援護基地申請申請移轉投票地點然後由移轉地編入選舉人名冊印製選票"},{"start":8282.196,"end":8306.876,"text":"那他的設計呢只限於全國性公投原因在於全國性公投的選票是一樣的所以他也沒有去規定這個選票要不要寄回給護學弟因為哪邊開票都一樣那麼接著我看民眾黨跟國民黨各委員的草案民眾黨版不在即投票法"},{"start":8307.776,"end":8334.921,"text":"他設計適用於所有的選舉中央地方選舉及公投那他採取移轉投票及指定場所投票兩種方式那國民黨各委員版的不在籍投票法草案也適用於選舉跟公投那只採取移轉投票但是"},{"start":8336.107,"end":8362.839,"text":"民眾黨跟國民黨各委員版的移轉投票的設計都有一個問題他們都沿用行政院版剛剛那個草案的一個必須在選前60天前申請移轉投票那我的疑問是移轉投票為何要在60日前提出申請為何還需要"},{"start":8364.464,"end":8392.501,"text":"編制移轉投票的選舉人名冊全世界有採取移轉投票的國家包括待會兒會介紹的日本 韓國沒有任何國家要求要60日前提出申請還要再去編新的名冊而且年輕人在外地工作 求學 生活緊張能否返鄉投票"},{"start":8394.131,"end":8419.863,"text":"往往是到投票前臨時才決定怎麼有可能60天前提出申請我必須指出行政院版這樣的設計其實目的是讓整個制度很難用而民眾黨國民黨委員版原用行政院的這個設計是沒有研究清楚就延續他的設計"},{"start":8423.101,"end":8451.456,"text":"還有一個實際的問題技術上的問題行政院板子針對全國性溝投他的選票全國都是一樣的所以他就說由移轉地去印製選票也沒特別再去講選票要不要寄回因為全國都哪裡開票都一樣但是地方選舉的選票都是不一樣的不可能交由移轉地去印製選票"},{"start":8452.844,"end":8479.534,"text":"而且投完票一定要寄回給原戶籍地去開票那民眾黨版跟國民黨版可能都忽略了這個問題他也沒有去規範以下我介紹日本跟南韓的不在籍投票制度日本有許多不在籍投票制度我只介紹最接近的兩種制度一 提前投票提前投票是一種在籍投票"},{"start":8480.556,"end":8508.469,"text":"選民可到戶籍地的提前投票所在公告日內去提不用事前申請最慢在選前一天去提去投而不在籍投票也就是我們所謂的移轉投票選民要向戶籍地選委會申請包括線上申請戶籍地選委會會寄給你選票跟信封收到後"},{"start":8509.508,"end":8537.379,"text":"最慢在選前一日向不在籍地的投票場所投票那麼該不在籍地的投票所最後會將選票寄回給戶籍地開票接著看南韓南韓也有非常多不在籍投票方式我只介紹一個提前投票南韓的提前投票同時就是移轉投票"},{"start":8539.175,"end":8560.373,"text":"他們大選一般在週三投票在前一個週五週六選民不用事前申請可以直接到全國各地區提前投票所投票不一定要在自己的戶籍地提前投票所他全國戶籍會連線當場就會印製特製的選票"},{"start":8567.526,"end":8592.101,"text":"那開票的時候呢如果你是在原自己戶籍地做提前投票的那個選票留在原戶籍地區去開票如果不是在原戶籍地投票的就是已轉投票的那麼該提前投票所會以掛號寄回給戶籍地在戶籍地開票了解日本跟南韓的實際運作之後"},{"start":8593.322,"end":8616.874,"text":"我對民眾黨跟國民黨版提出幾個修正建議抱歉待會再給我兩分鐘對移轉投票部分目前民眾黨國民黨都參考行政院錯誤的規定說要選前60日內申請還要編制新的選舉人名冊建議一將"},{"start":8618.218,"end":8645.865,"text":"選前60日申請改為最慢選前3日或5日申請二 刪除繁瑣的編譯新的不在籍選舉人名冊規定三 選票必須由原戶籍地區印製寄給選民四 明定選民最慢在選前一日到移轉地投出移轉地再寄回給戶籍地開票對指定場所投票"},{"start":8647.045,"end":8675.565,"text":"民眾黨現行草案列了四種人可以適用指定場所投票但參考日本跟南韓都欠缺了老病殘這種類型所以我建議指定場所投票增加老病殘這種類型最後全世界所有先進民主國家都採取非常多的不在籍投票"},{"start":8676.786,"end":8698.61,"text":"那台灣是非常保守非常抗拒那行政院對公投公民投票呢願意開放但也只採取最保守的一轉投票而且他的設計跟全世界都不一樣他要求要60日前申請還要編新的選舉的名冊"},{"start":8700.339,"end":8716.662,"text":"全世界都沒有這樣我建議參考日本南韓的設計做合理的修正這樣移轉投票的運作才可以真正的實施我也期待這樣的實施謝謝大家好謝謝接下來我們請麥玉珍委員"},{"start":8729.445,"end":8752.059,"text":"主席各位先進專家學者與親愛的家人大家好感謝大家在百忙之中還那麼冷的天氣來到立法院為台灣民主制度提供寶貴的專業的意見我們一起給大家一個掌聲好嗎感謝大家大家真的太棒了所以呢這麼"},{"start":8754.62,"end":8768.965,"text":"大家這樣的參與本身就是民主最重要的力量今天我代表台灣民眾黨用最白話也最真誠的方式說明三件事情為什麼要推動"},{"start":8770.277,"end":8790.084,"text":"很民主不在即投票我們解決的是誰的問題又守住了哪一些民主的底線第一我們要解決的不是要不要投票而是能不能投票很多人說台灣投票率不低制度沒有問題但我們"},{"start":8792.547,"end":8812.918,"text":"請大家想一個最基本的問題如果投票前必須先請假買車票搭高鐵轉捷運還要承擔交通的風險戶籍地和這樣風險還是算平等的公民權嗎現在有超過200萬"},{"start":8817.236,"end":8844.135,"text":"我們的國民戶籍地和實際生活地不在同一個縣市他們不是不關心政治而是制度要求付出額外的成本才能行使一個本來就屬於自己的權利這不是人民的問題而是制度沒有跟上人民生活形態的問題第二"},{"start":8846.957,"end":8865.795,"text":"台灣民眾黨更民主的不再急投票不是冒進 而是補齊制度缺口民眾黨提出更民主的不再急投票的制度非常保守 也非常清楚只做移轉投票"},{"start":8866.616,"end":8892.964,"text":"只在指定場所投票不做通訊投票不做網路投票也就是說你還是本人到場還是實際投票還是現場監督只是不用被戶籍地綁住了而是回到你真正生活的地方投票這"},{"start":8894.54,"end":8919.925,"text":"不是增低標準而是讓制度回到人民的身邊第三安全不是問題台灣有能力也早就準備好了有人擔心選舉安全國安風險但是我們必須誠實面對一件事台灣在身份驗證資料北對還有"},{"start":8924.12,"end":8950.382,"text":"選務管理 資安與國安防衛上本來就是世界級的標準我們能守住的監保系統 金融體系 國安資安卻說自己連換一個地方投票都做不到這不符合台灣真實的能力"},{"start":8951.158,"end":8962.487,"text":"而且民眾黨版本刻意避開所有高風險的科技沒有新增漏洞只是合理調整的流程"},{"start":8963.24,"end":8981.034,"text":"第四 這個制度真是回應民間團體於年輕世代的真實需求現在被制度擋在門外的真是大家長期關心的那一群人 外地工作者 打工學生"},{"start":8981.976,"end":8989.402,"text":"醫療警消輪班勞工北漂南漂的青年離島居民他們不是不要投票而是不應該為了投票付出不合理的代價一個好的民主制度不該只服務時間多資源多動員能力強的人最後"},{"start":9008.052,"end":9018.324,"text":"感謝大家來給我們最寶貴的意見希望今天討論能讓大家清楚看見真正的民主"},{"start":9018.837,"end":9038.224,"text":"不叫做人民走更遠而是讓制度走進人民不再急投票不是政治操作而是一項便民安全可監督可落實的制度該成為一個真實"},{"start":9040.586,"end":9058.875,"text":"請聽專家回應人民生活現實的起點台灣有能力也有責任把民主制度做得更公平更安全及更有效的投票制度更民主的公民權謝謝大家"},{"start":9063.39,"end":9078.17,"text":"好我們今天所有的專家學者都已發言完畢那我們現在先請我們與會機關代表回應說明我們先請內政部"},{"start":9088.523,"end":9105.936,"text":"主席還有各位學者今天也特別感謝所有的與會的專家學者跟委員的發言那有關不在即投票跟如何防範假錯訊息來破壞民主制度的相關建議那我想我們內政部都會入案來作為未來推動相關業務的研議參考"},{"start":9107.301,"end":9131.159,"text":"那再來就是全面實施不在籍投票在現實面其實會衍生選務作業的高度複雜投票秘密跟無法維護那尤其是在現在境外敵對勢力及其他不法人士危害選舉的公平性的問題我們內政部也重申在現階段並不宜貿然全面推動不在籍投票以上那我們再請中選會"},{"start":9146.543,"end":9174.189,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好那有關於今天的這些討論的議題那本會的意見就詳如書面報告那簡要報告如下第一點就是實施全面實施不在意投票那的確會對選務作業會造成衝擊那這些衝擊的項目就剛如同內政部次長所報告的這些一樣那第二點就是有關於投票日前一日均放假這個規定"},{"start":9175.309,"end":9193.139,"text":"那由於中選會認為說只要在選務的層面具有可行性那不影響選舉跟公民投票競爭的公平性選民對投票結果公正性的信賴這些情況之下那有助於選民行使投票權的法案那本會都均予以尊重那另外有關於說防範"},{"start":9194.159,"end":9214.171,"text":"資訊戰與錯誤的假訊息攻擊破壞民主制度這些那本會也會都會透過錯假訊息的澄清舉報跟宣傳等等措施那尤其在投票日的時候我們會建立這種封閉式的電腦計票網路跟設計備援的機房然後經過完整的電腦作業"},{"start":9215.572,"end":9231.417,"text":"演練然後在投票日當日還會成立中央選情中心那有效的來持續降低不實資訊對選民認知與投票行為的影響那確保選舉制度的公正性透明性來鞏固民主制度的根本價值以上謝謝因為這個謝謝教授"},{"start":9253.261,"end":9271.056,"text":"我沒有提到說可以多談兩分鐘所以我時間到之前幾十秒就結束了後來我想這樣子就是說今天大家討論的東西本來是民進黨黨團提出來的但是後來又延伸到很多不在己投票的問題"},{"start":9272.216,"end":9297.12,"text":"未來大院相關的這個公聽會應該把它放在一起然後一起討論這是第一點建議第二點如果是思考不在己投票的問題的話我想不管是現在執政黨或者是在野黨剛剛幾位我們教授都提到都太保守了我們都沒有發展前瞻性的想法"},{"start":9298.206,"end":9313.384,"text":"一個台灣這麼好的民主已經邁入了民主先進國家美國的自由之家把它評比民主自由是非常高的我們為什麼不敢大膽的去思考所謂的通訊投票"},{"start":9314.591,"end":9338.713,"text":"那我讲的通讯投票不是全面性的海内外全部一起的就如同我们当年办义务教育一样先办9年甚至民国57年之前已经在一些地方已经先实施试验了我们可不可以也在通讯投票实施年轻人的部分先行也就是说渐进式的"},{"start":9339.68,"end":9360.698,"text":"這個部分我想才是比較前瞻的想法我們不要怕這個怕那個現在剛剛不是很多人講年輕人趕快補助他的經費回鄉投票回鄉不是投票一次就代表愛自己的鄉土我退休了之後被雲林的兩個鄉鎮找回去寫鄉鎮誌的確我們外流人口很嚴重"},{"start":9361.579,"end":9376.829,"text":"但是不是一次性的不是說到嘉義市的園環然後就參與民主那只是可能一小時嘉義的人口26萬能夠到園環附近去參與那一場的有多少人"},{"start":9377.993,"end":9391.986,"text":"我想這個都是我們可以比較開放的因為蔣教授提到說這一場是最和諧的所以我想就是有一點焦急大家有一點焦急之後也給貴院做參考 謝謝好 來 請賴律師"},{"start":9404.045,"end":9429.875,"text":"主席各位先進感謝主席讓我再有發言的機會今天非常高興可以聽到各位先進寶貴的意見不管我們的想法相同或不相同在台灣討論投票制度不管是你要多放假一天還是要用不在籍投票我想對台灣民主這是一個非常關鍵的討論"},{"start":9432.977,"end":9454.195,"text":"就如同先進所指教的今天的今天的公聽會主題應該是民進黨的促進民主加強民主投票促進法那為什麼要這麼多人這麼關心不在籍投票那是因為"},{"start":9455.336,"end":9474.868,"text":"我們台灣民眾黨所提出來的不在籍投票法自從交付委員會審查以後委員會完全沒有開過任何一場公定會也沒有開過任何的審查會然後就在上個月12月12號抽出禁覆二讀然後在這個月1月12號"},{"start":9481.131,"end":9506.159,"text":"馬上很可能二三讀闖關那我不曉得麥玉珍委員剛剛已經先走了如果可能的話是不是我們這些學者專家一起來呼籲台灣民眾黨讓這個法案就是在二三讀闖關之前真的讓社會可以討論我們再來開公聽會再把這個案子送回委員會仔細討論而不是沒有經過討論"},{"start":9510.04,"end":9532.97,"text":"就要這樣衝突的闖關大法官憲法法庭的判決已經指出不議而決不是憲法所賦予立法院的議決權今天這個公聽會大家在A法案的公聽會去討論民眾黨B法案的不在籍投票這個荒謬正凸顯不議而決的荒謬"},{"start":9540.754,"end":9546.458,"text":"好謝謝賴律師還有沒有其他要補充的謝謝主席的時間因為剛才那個麥委員提到那個國安資安跟那個身份認定的問題這點剛好就來做一點補充因為我有去請教那個我做那個所有的資安的相關資安圈的那個朋友啦他們說就是現在就是要在投票的時候要去做那個"},{"start":9568.334,"end":9583.824,"text":"就是身份認定這件事情你要跨區做這件事情的那個難度是相當高的那我們要再提醒大家就是在台大有實驗過任何各種各式各樣的這種通訊投票或移轉投票這種方式每一屆都有很多的這個問題所以其實在執行層面上面是一定要小心的"},{"start":9584.244,"end":9598.818,"text":"那這個剛才要呼籲一下這個賴律師就是說我們就是今天沒有任何機會去討論移轉投票然後就或者是這個不再離投票那我們現在在討論這個對岸就是這個多放一天假讓大家更方便投票這件事情可見其實"},{"start":9599.861,"end":9620.721,"text":"大家是有個共識這個共識就是說希望讓鼓勵大家就是能夠越方便投票越好這件事情是確定的所以這個作為一個對岸的話我覺得以目前的這個多放一天假的這種方式可以達到鼓勵大家去投票的這個效果可是如果說我們就直接開放了這個這個移轉投票或者是"},{"start":9621.401,"end":9634.63,"text":"不在意投票的話在執行層面上真的是會有非常多的問題像剛才說到如果還要記回的然後還有就是大家想想看比如說九合一選舉你原來一個投票所有九個投票箱可是接下來你九個投票箱還要就是再加上別的縣市那這樣加起來可能就是你光是市長成績變二十二個投票箱一個投票箱變二十二個投票箱然後再往下的這個議員成績"},{"start":9645.658,"end":9673.671,"text":"更不用就是每一個投票箱就是大概的那個投票箱數量就開不完了那如果你還要移轉回去的話我就問大家一個問題就好大家能不能夠接受我們現在是四個小時可以開完票結果可能要變成兩天三天才能開完票大家能不能接受這件事情我個人是覺得這個是會有非常非常高度的這個疑慮的所以我是希望說我們對於這個不在意投票啊或者是相關的這個配套呢都能夠有更多的這個討論那在身份認定那個地方國安治安這個問題我覺得也是相當的這個需要考慮的好 謝謝"},{"start":9677.313,"end":9692.122,"text":"還有沒有好 沒有 謝謝很感謝各位專家學者提供寶貴的意見其實在座我真正親自辦過選舉的應該是我"},{"start":9694.659,"end":9715.818,"text":"我當過台北縣的選委會總幹事當了四年怎麼辦選舉實際的操作是我甚至我必須也說中選會的人如果不是從地方來他們也沒辦過選舉我跟你講我覺得很多方向都是好的但目前的台灣"},{"start":9717.202,"end":9732.23,"text":"我們能夠一步到位嗎我覺得這個可能後續我們要修法後續要什麼或有機會再討論的話大家可以思考一下也請大家到時候再給我們寶貴的意見在這邊先拜託大家"},{"start":9733.231,"end":9752.705,"text":"好所有初列席人員的發言與提供的書面資料及高精素美委員所提書面資料除刊登公報之外我們會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員會及所有初列席委員參考再一次感謝各位的參與謝謝大家今天的公聽會到此結束現在散會謝謝"},{"start":9761.493,"end":9764.974,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9809.326,"end":9828.677,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9836.783,"end":9845.52,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"166989","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166989","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f54300e0be91b02d1a440af7842d899401a61d89202e029a9f205ffaa6d71c87aaa95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:01:24 - 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今天我們持續進行大學法修法的討論那本席跟范雲委員跟陳秀寶委員我們在上一屆2022年的時候就有參與大學法這個委員會的細緻的討論只可惜沒有到三讀"},{"start":32.159,"end":50.765,"text":"好那這一屆我們再重啟修法除了當年的提升學生權還有大學評鑑等事項我都有寫進去自己的版本以外那當然這幾年我們面臨的大學法改革跟這個少子化加劇還有就是私校治理的困境種種的挑戰所以我們要來重新來審視這大學法"},{"start":54.986,"end":69.432,"text":"那朱市長你在大學法的公聽會你有坦言說在討論校長遴選委員跟校務會議的這個定位還有這個老師權益的保障跟這個學生自治參與這四個面向"},{"start":71.013,"end":91.17,"text":"我們應該要先思考大學的定位那以及這個公司力這個學校角色的不同那所以是不是先請市長來談談在本次大學法要修法的這個時候你對於三年前我們修法的時候你的想法有什麼不同"},{"start":92.718,"end":116.356,"text":"跟委员报告其实教育部的立场没有改变过要说有什么不同的展望我想分刚刚委员提出的四个主要的面项其实有两类以我们学生知识参与跟老师权益来讲这其实并没有什么公司的不同这跟自己架构没有关系这是应该是一致的也是我们一起要来努力的"},{"start":116.656,"end":143.791,"text":"那这一块其实我觉得在这两年也经过委员们跟同学跟老师的一些反应之后其实大学也慢慢认识到这一块应该是要往前跨那只是大学希望说再往前跨这个过程能够渐进式的因为要避免大学遇到一些不确定的一些状况所以他们希望说渐进式的比如说我刚才也报告过有没有可能学生校会也先跨到八分之一那至于说"},{"start":144.511,"end":163.865,"text":"离同学的期待五分之一或四分之一的一段距离这段距离有没有可能让大学看每个学校的一个实际的状况有一些调整比如说学生的参与率等等那这个部分我是觉得可以朝这方面找到大家的一个最大公约数那这个是在学生跟老师权的部分另外"},{"start":164.665,"end":183.026,"text":"刚刚委员提到另外一个校长临选跟校务会的参与这就会有一些公私立对这个就是等一下我要跟你探讨的问题对这个是有不同因为以私立大学来讲教育部的教育部跟大学角色在私立学校会是教育部董事会跟学校"},{"start":183.747,"end":206.595,"text":"會再多一個董事會所以某種程度董事會他在整個私校治理來講他辦的角色是有點跟教育部是有這塊是有一些差異跟我們跟國立大學是有些差異的所以這塊我們要留意當然就是說如果延續朱市長你總結這幾個面向我覺得我們再一次來修法討論"},{"start":208.536,"end":236.245,"text":"是要以校園民主治理為主軸也就是說不管是校長的遴選或校務會議代表還是說學生自治的保障都應該跟校園民主息息相關所以在這幾點中又以學生的聲音如何落實變成校園治理的重要參採因素我覺得最為重要當然在這個同時我們也要留意校方是否有難以執行之處"},{"start":237.245,"end":263.818,"text":"那所以我們拿私立大學的校務會議來看被這次修法的版本很多都有提及說校務會議教師代表中沒有兼行政主管職務的人數的規定可是還有這個學生代表比例的問題就剛剛你說了幾分之幾可是同時也有私立科大的這個協進會的人士指出如果有些大學老師如果人數就是不夠"},{"start":264.438,"end":283.086,"text":"或者因為少子化的關係學生人數也不夠那這樣的規定就讓校會很難以成會所以在校園的實際的狀況跟理想的修法好像不能一體適用所以如何來面對這個不能一體適用的問題這個可能也是我們修法的一個重要的指標"},{"start":285.307,"end":313.099,"text":"可是我們還是不能放棄這個民主這個治理校園民主治理的深化那只是怎麼樣彈性配套或者是說我們思考這個規範的密度應該要到哪裡那朱市長在上次的公聽會也有說在私校校務會一方面校長這個董事會還有這個全校師生三者之間的權責到底怎麼樣都必須一起討論那所以請教市長就我上述提了一些問題特別是針對私立大學"},{"start":313.479,"end":325.794,"text":"就是對應到這次大學法的修法那你認為要怎麼樣的解方才能去取得衡平就是我們是不是來思考暫時跟私校公校做差異化的處置"},{"start":327.438,"end":350.021,"text":"你覺得 根文報告我想第一個這次修法在整個校務會議的運作其實在94年修大學法的時候事實上是把學校的治理分成兩大塊一個是校長的行政權校長行政權這個部分他會受到校務會議對於學校重要事項"},{"start":351.302,"end":370.2,"text":"的一个审议的监督我想这两个目前在整个大学法的架构底下是框架得非常清楚那在施效法里面又加了一个董事会进来那加一个董事会进来之后董事会的角色他是比较属于事前的审核跟事后的监督在"},{"start":371.341,"end":399.811,"text":"執行當中學校校務的執行當中他應該是要尊重校長的職責那再一步是監督董事會跟校長之間他們的權責發揮這個運作機制夠不夠我想這是在私校的一個治理結構如果以目前來講這樣的治理結構我覺得運作上基本上沒有太大問題但是比較大的問題可能就是注意到一些細節比如說董事會他過度去干涉校長的權限那這部分其實就在私校來講他就已經有違背了"},{"start":400.071,"end":419.53,"text":"那下一步怎么去处理这些问题这其实是另外就是一个issue了那另外在国立大学这个部分校会怎么去好好地监对重要事项的监督他并不是直接去监督校长而是说我校会有哪些重要的决策哪些重要的事项"},{"start":420.211,"end":443.067,"text":"我是要经过我校务会议同意而不是说校务会议时时刻刻去自然下场这部分是合作的关系有点像行政跟立法这种感觉所以我想这一块但是这一块大家比较在意的是说那我校务会议老师的组成这个部分是不是可以更具有代表性跟多元性我想这个就是一个很好的解方也是这次大家提出来的重点之一是"},{"start":444.528,"end":472.447,"text":"談及校園民主治理的深化我們焦點還是學生很重要就是說我們怎麼樣把學生的聲音如何化作影響力學生團體長年在倡議就是希望增加學生在校務會議中的比例當然很關鍵因素是在於能不能達到校務會議的提案門檻學生的比例能不能達到提案門檻我想這是學生團體最在意的"},{"start":474.288,"end":497.317,"text":"有關於學生自治保障的部分就教育部有個行政法規叫做大專院校學生會運作原則修正規定那這個規劃的面向很多那我們是不是有機會把一些原則提升到法律的位階喔 這個值得討論那再來就是說我們在上一屆的時候我們在審查的時候也有提及說我們有共識就是說大學要應輔導"},{"start":499.978,"end":521.526,"text":"學生成立由全校選舉產生的學生會就等於是大學應輔導學生會修正為大學應協助學生會也就是說從字面上意義鬆綁了大學對於學生自治團體的過度介入然後也將強化了校內所謂的自治團體的保障"},{"start":524.347,"end":541.452,"text":"所以本席參考學生團體的意見有提出學生會的專章也試圖從各方面去提升學生的自治保障另外也想跟朱市長追蹤說前陣子朱市長另有應范雲委員的邀請跟一群大學生座談"},{"start":542.352,"end":560.96,"text":"那你又允諾說會計數提出版本那就提升學生權的部分那教育部的立場如何那是否能允諾增進這個學生公共的參與跟自治跟學習能力的目的更願意賦權給學生 次長"},{"start":564.182,"end":591.437,"text":"我想这个是可以双管齐下的大学法修法怎么提升到法律位界来保障学生自治参与这块是我们现在跟委员一起在努力的但是在修法的当下我们同时比如说透过委员刚刚关心的学生会运作原整这个部分的修正来协助我想学生是主体不是辅导本来是辅导我们就是上一届有共识来协助学生有更多的父权"},{"start":591.997,"end":604.092,"text":"在現行沒有修法之下可以做的我們先來進行我想這也是我們努力的方向那這塊我們就雙廣旗下一起配合委員來努力好 次長謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝林一錦委員"}]}},{"id":"166985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166985","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5434024439f6a547560067a41bab2fb0feae25119d80932fbafaa518cd20a1dc6235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:39:07 - 10:53:41","影片長度":"00:14:34","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T10:39:07+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T10:53:41+08:00","duration":874,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.52721875,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.492843750000002,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.813468750000002,"end":15.606593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.62346875,"end":15.640343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.652843750000002,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.82971875,"end":20.297843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.38221875,"end":22.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.14971875,"end":26.035343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.457218750000003,"end":26.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.94659375,"end":29.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.59159375,"end":38.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.455343750000004,"end":46.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.196593750000005,"end":48.377843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.93471875,"end":56.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.13596875,"end":74.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.76159375,"end":79.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.25471875000001,"end":80.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.09409375,"end":83.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.24596875,"end":82.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.10221875,"end":93.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.21471875,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.22284375000001,"end":96.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.26909375000001,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.21409375,"end":97.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.46721875,"end":98.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.48409375,"end":97.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.93534375,"end":100.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.67346875000001,"end":105.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.00659375000001,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.28471875000001,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.41096875000001,"end":106.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.11784375,"end":122.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.15159375,"end":119.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.89409375000001,"end":120.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.15971875000001,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.40409375,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.41221875000001,"end":128.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.07846875,"end":136.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.53284375,"end":141.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.46034375000002,"end":142.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.82721875000001,"end":142.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.87784375,"end":163.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.40221875,"end":165.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.03034375000001,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.12721875,"end":169.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.52346875,"end":170.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.91159375,"end":171.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.46409375000002,"end":173.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.10096875000002,"end":178.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.29409375,"end":179.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.91846875000002,"end":182.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.73659375000003,"end":200.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.59471875000003,"end":202.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.32846875,"end":204.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.13409375,"end":218.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.17596875,"end":206.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.85846875000001,"end":214.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.35971875,"end":222.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.81471875000003,"end":229.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.70409375000003,"end":233.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.49221875,"end":238.81221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.55471875,"end":240.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.83721875,"end":247.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.25471875000002,"end":245.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.63784375,"end":255.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.23159375000003,"end":2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謝謝主席這邊有請副部長副部長請法律師的司長請司長司法院的那個副廳長"},{"start":28.151,"end":42.698,"text":"首先這個要請教副部長就是因為我想這兩天大家看到F16又出事了全國的人民都非常傷心難過而且也很不捨到現在為止還沒有"},{"start":44.044,"end":55.776,"text":"發現那位失事的飛行員那麼事實上就是這些年來國防部明明就是花了大把的錢去買新型的F16"},{"start":57.596,"end":74.448,"text":"然後也花了錢去要去加裝自動防撞的系統甚至也說要更新MMC迷航導向的電腦系統等等可是到目前為止到底這些裝備有沒有已經送到我國了呢我們F16當時是訂了多少架的飛機"},{"start":82.173,"end":95.086,"text":"新型的F16報告委員先跟委員回覆您現在問的這是140架那這是在奉展我們這個案子裡面來說多少架 麻煩大聲一點140架新型的F16"},{"start":99.071,"end":117.545,"text":"新型的F-16是66架新型的F-16是66架然後你剛剛說140架是我們現在討論的NMC的失效也好跟AutoTigas這個系統的加裝也好那是在舊購的飛機上也就是目前我們已經在執行戰備的飛機上面"},{"start":119.218,"end":135.769,"text":"所以都已經換裝完畢了嗎還是說這個東西都沒有還沒有那為什麼一直都沒有換裝完畢這個部分我們也持續的在努力所謂的在努力是什麼是東西都還沒有到位都還沒有送到相關的系統設備都還沒有到台灣嗎"},{"start":136.59,"end":164.304,"text":"范委員其實這兩個案子是有相關聯的因為我們先前所買的這個F16 BLOCK兩棟的部分它因為後續的需求它要做能力的性能的提升武器的 夾艙的 新的採購包含我們現在所討論的AUTOGIGS這個系統的部分因為它是新增加能力你們當時有沒有訂定履約的時間"},{"start":166.172,"end":175.467,"text":"報告委員都有都有所以現在全部都已經延宕了嘛對不對目前這個案子是我們都已經延遲了嘛也就是在履約的時間之內這些東西都沒有到貨嘛"},{"start":180.112,"end":201.958,"text":"該安裝的也沒有安裝完備對吧剛剛有跟前面的委員有說明的那目前它主要如果是你現在問的是AutoKicks的部分的話它主要有三個部分第一個部分限速要更新第二個部分它的非超軟體要提升還有它的非超的電腦要完成總之就是都沒有完成嘛"},{"start":202.578,"end":220.679,"text":"目前其實都有進度都有進度但是沒有完成我現在講的是就是在我們契約訂定的旅行的期間之內他沒有完成簡單來說他就是一個沒有旅行這契約沒有旅行抱怨他執行的年度是從109年到117年"},{"start":222.921,"end":246.963,"text":"所以我們目前已經要求美方提前在116年的第四季希望它能夠把它完整交給我們可是當時應該是分批安裝分批交貨吧現在是一部都沒有對不對我們訂了66架的F16現在有多少架已經到台灣了報告委員這是兩個問題好沒關係就是剛剛前面講的那個系統的部分到現在為止都沒有一部有更新"},{"start":247.717,"end":265.129,"text":"系統它要先佈線之後然後做非超軟體的提升再做非超電腦的構改所以從107年到現在115年是 那因為對 都沒有任何的完成沒有任何的這個系統完成"},{"start":266.19,"end":287.521,"text":"我們這個構型的飛機它是比較舊的是八個兩棟那我本身是飛F16的那我們的飛超系統是所謂的類比式的飛超那美方它的飛機是數位式的飛超那美方目前國民兵他們也要做提升"},{"start":287.881,"end":316.983,"text":"好 我想要講的是就是說你基本上這個整個的軍購契約他就是沒有完成嘛你當時沒有符合那個契約的旅行條件而且也給付不完全在像這樣的情況之下美方看起來是明顯的他有拖延整個的給付的進度這有沒有任何的損害賠償的罰款報告委員這部分我們是採軍購方式來執行是由美方來代替我們執行所謂的專案管理的這個部分"},{"start":318.738,"end":332.493,"text":"所以你委託他 他竟然是受委託人那麼對於受委託人他如果沒有依照委託人的指示去執行相關的契約條件的時候你們都沒有任何的處罰機制嗎沒有任何的罰款機制嗎"},{"start":335.737,"end":350.827,"text":"我們都透過現行的三層架構然後跟美方持續的請他們來協助我們做改善你們只是持續但是你沒有任何的處罰其實沒有任何的罰款其實難怪美方都不甩嘛這就是現在很嚴重的問題我不客氣的講這些年來的幾架的軍機出事國防部是難辭其咎"},{"start":357.552,"end":382.115,"text":"就是因為你們怠惰失職不積極的去執行履約的條件也不積極的去監督去要求你們所謂的美方作為一個受委託人所以才會造成這些嚴重的意外我們每個人都不希望看到我們的國軍弟兄有任何的差錯有發生這樣子不幸的這種非安的這個事件"},{"start":383.544,"end":409.619,"text":"我們有一句話說我不殺柏仁 柏仁因我而死現在國防部的情況就變成說你們不是要去害這非官可是因為你們的怠惰不作為失職而造成我們這些非官傷亡報告委員 這個部分我沒辦法接受您的說法我認為說你們真的是要積極的檢討啦你們的作為是能夠讓國軍弟兄安心嗎報告委員 我們自己你們沒有辦法好好的去照顧國軍弟兄因為現在還要來修法"},{"start":410.98,"end":425.905,"text":"然後意圖給這些國軍弟兄們扣帽子去箝制他們的思想 去箝制他們的一些行為他們可能根本沒有意圖可是因為你們現在的這個提案對敵人效忠表示"},{"start":427.543,"end":446.728,"text":"這已經構成了進行法的犯罪這是兩件事情 這是兩個不一樣的事情是兩件事情 但它有關係我的意思是說你們沒有好好照顧國軍弟兄你們反而另外又在現行的陸海空軍刑法本來就有降敵罪就投敵罪你們現在增加的這個第五項就連司法院的書面報告都說你們這個是意圖什麼意圖去擴大那可罰性的範圍"},{"start":459.384,"end":478.924,"text":"這個規定基本上是很嚴重的這未來會有多少的 我們的國軍地修可能因此被扣帽子所以我就今天問嘛 如果說我跟委員做兩點的說明 第一個部分是有關這個Blog兩項 部長 請副部長先聽我說完我接下來要問你 什麼叫做對敵人效忠表示"},{"start":480.356,"end":494.151,"text":"今天如果有一個國軍弟兄在他的床頭前或是他的手機桌面貼了一個解放軍的美女照片這像敵人笑中表示"},{"start":495.871,"end":511.387,"text":"我兩件事情跟委員說明第一個有關這個鳳展專案這個構改的部分你不用想前面的專案我現在希望你就我的問題回答因為他這個延宣前面的部分現在跟美國民兵同步在構改所以他的進度"},{"start":511.747,"end":538.602,"text":"蘇部長我希望你對於我剛剛問的問題如果一個國軍弟兄他的手機桌面是個解放軍的美女或者是他看到大陸現在的閱兵出事的他的軍事武器非常精良他在影片上面按個讚這個算不算是對敵人效忠表示他要有具體的行為去顯示而且依據個案的不同來做一個相關的檢討"},{"start":539.522,"end":545.203,"text":"好那副部長你剛剛講的重點要具體的行為顯示他的這樣的行為可能會對於軍事上造成不利益對不對因為要對根據他的翻譯以及他的具體行為依據個案來檢討所以你們在這個條文裡面你們有加上他有沒有這個意圖嗎你有顯示他是意圖嗎以你們現在的規定這叫什麼這叫抽象危險"},{"start":565.467,"end":570.681,"text":"他只要是他沒有不見得要有意圖他就有這個行為的表示就可能會受到處罰這樣合理嗎"},{"start":574.349,"end":597.046,"text":"來請法務司司長回答跟委員說明一下報委員其實我們跟司法院大概最主要的看法有點不同就是是不是要足以生軍事上是不利益但是因為其實我們考量是其實現役軍人他本來就是要效忠國家那你用這言語說其他方式"},{"start":598.849,"end":605.464,"text":"但是如果是說你要效忠敵人的話這種言論對我們居然來講我們是不可以接受"},{"start":609.04,"end":629.101,"text":"給大陸的這個看到他們的閱兵的影片按個讚或是分享轉傳這個構不構成對敵人的消毒保釋如果委員現在所設定的想定就是說他只有按讚或是把解放軍的照片當作他手機的封面我可以很明確跟委員講如果說調查結果就是這樣他不會構成這一條罪"},{"start":630.743,"end":646.174,"text":"但是我們國軍你本來言行就是要忠於國家你這些可能會影響到國人對我們國軍的看法可能會影響軍域我們或許會用陸海空軍懲罰法對他的行為來作以適當的懲處而不會用陸海空軍刑法對他苛責這樣子是可能違反軍紀軍律那麼有嚴重到必須要上綱道用刑法來治罪嗎"},{"start":655.62,"end":681.453,"text":"如果是說他已經很明確的向敵人表示效忠這樣子就不行所以我就說嘛什麼叫做明確具體向敵人效忠你們不是陸海空軍刑法用言語用言語用言語舉動文字讀畫這個難道不夠不夠誠嗎所以呃師長啊你們我們都學法律的大家都知道你們現在規定下去的這個條文啊他的影響範圍有多大"},{"start":682.651,"end":692.213,"text":"甚至可能撕到你以後你唱個大陸的一個流行歌曲你可能都會被扣上對敵人效忠的表示"},{"start":693.45,"end":717.945,"text":"什麼叫做舉動你們這裡面的規定以言語 舉動 任何的科技方式來做對敵人效用你光是怎麼去定義那個敵人你現在告訴我 你現在敵人我們哪一個法律裡面有定義敵人跟委員說明一下我們入海空軍刑法第十條與我國交戰或對峙之國家或團體就是我們的敵人那按照司法實務現在的見解"},{"start":720.026,"end":749.184,"text":"中共就是跟我們武力對峙的一個團體他們就是我們的敵人好 這屬於對峙對不對對 武力對峙那現在就是說你匡列了這個敵人的範圍之後接下來就是說他有沒有意圖嘛這意圖很重要啊否則就像我剛剛講的他可能沒有意圖 沒有故意可是就被這個檢察官或是未來被這個就是可能就會因此被扣上這個罪名"},{"start":750.878,"end":778.775,"text":"這個基本上是對於我們的國軍弟兄來講他隨時都會處於一個很不安穩因為你不知道法律未來我們的法院會怎麼樣去看待這個事情就像我說的你們已經有陸海空軍懲罰法了有一些違規違紀的行為可以透過懲罰法去處理就可以了有必要上綱到刑法嗎刑法就是強調什麼要法律明確性明確原則"},{"start":781.095,"end":796.83,"text":"是 跟委員報告一下我們這個條文的設計本來就是為敵人為效忠表示他前面有言語舉動文字圖畫或什麼什麼等方式要用這些方式表出來他才會構成如果你只有在心中自己去想說你想要做什麼事情真的不會構成"},{"start":798.23,"end":813.048,"text":"從你們現在的法條設計裡面看不出來你們不處罰那種心中或者說我自己的一些行為就像我剛剛講的掛照片啦 唱流行歌曲啦我按讚分享啦 等等的這些看起來以後都會被你們處罰"},{"start":814.793,"end":837.212,"text":"而且還抓去關牢 抓去坐牢所以我認為 因為現在莊委這邊我強烈的建議 這個條文它影響很大本期希望能夠開公聽會能夠好好把這個案子講清楚大家來看看 如果說有認為要訂定的必要那麼我們要提出更嚴謹的修法"},{"start":839.494,"end":865.776,"text":"更嚴謹的修法因為畢竟我們現在已經在入海空軍刑罰裡面有降敵罪有投敵罪這是規定在這個整個章節裡面違反效忠國家的章節所以我們如果說要進一步要去對於這種具體的像敵人效忠的表示而且他要確實是要產生對於國家對於軍隊有不利益的有具體傷害的我們才處罰那這樣我覺得才完整啊所以這個"},{"start":868.057,"end":870.22,"text":"本席希望召委能夠來開這個公聽會以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f54374b2561d4e3f89a5324c55f2e48b25a9e25119d80932fbaf3d6cc5b51f0f3cef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:14:39 - 10:44:59","影片長度":"00:30:20","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員陳秀寳等22人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「大學法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員柯志恩等21人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員翁曉玲等 16 人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員伍麗華Saidhai 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是嘛所以您剛剛有一句話講得很好啊我們在校長領選的時候要有代表性的人參與嘛學生有沒有代表性"},{"start":109.847,"end":138.013,"text":"有有嘛所以呢我們現在想要看公私立大學的校長臨選委員會就應該要明定有學生代表去納入嘛那我們12月底剛通過三讀的這個青年基本法也明定了兩年內要完備相關的法制18歲的青年要有選舉罷免創制複決的權益我們青年要擁有這樣的權益了結果不能決定自己校門裡面的事啊"},{"start":138.903,"end":155.748,"text":"這不會太荒謬了嗎那我們看到你們教育部提供的資料謝謝你們做的統計啊到了2025年的7月教育部所屬的45所國立大學的校院已經有29校在校長領選的規章裡面有學生代表一人"},{"start":158.191,"end":174.704,"text":"64%既然大學端已經確認實務上可行了那就可以加速推動立法為什麼不能做那還有很多人會說那各國的情況呢我們已經都整理好了德國的族群大學治理模式裡面就有學生共同參與決策"},{"start":175.945,"end":191.793,"text":"美國的大學校長領選不論公私立也都有比如說私立的哈佛大學就有學生可以直接參與甚至直接寄發40萬封的信件給所有的師生裡面也有學生諮詢委員會"},{"start":193.354,"end":218.995,"text":"那也不用擔心最終董事會還是可以由董事會來做決定所以台灣的私校也可以用相同的模式所以次長我們今天既然有這個大學法的詢答能不能你幫我們表達一下你們教育部真實的意見不要講說20年我告訴各位1908年胡適就在爭取學生自治"},{"start":220.337,"end":245.775,"text":"當時啊 160名學生覺得學生自治沒有被重視直接放而退學 成立新公學一個超過一百年的學生爭取的東西你現在不表達意見整理什麼公民團體啦 學校啦你再整理兩天也整理不完嘛我再給你兩百年也整理不完可不可以表達一下明確的表達支持跟肯定"},{"start":246.926,"end":261.672,"text":"公立大學校長領選委員會可以納入學生代表可不可以好 跟委員報告這個方向就是教育部努力的目標好那因為公立大學目前確實像委員講剛剛更正一下就是29校已經有學生代表在裡面了我幫你算好 64%啊對"},{"start":262.952,"end":278.571,"text":"那另外在私立學校我也可以看到我們有整理出來私立學校對這一塊是比較保留但是教育部目前也認為以校老民選必須要有代表性跟多元性所以我們也會努力的朝這方面來跟私校做溝通所以支持入法的方向嘛"},{"start":278.971,"end":305.554,"text":"對不對好 謝謝點頭了所以我們就這個態度很棒嘛你們把這樣的態度放到這個報告裡面我想我們今天這個詢答真的會大家會非常非常的感動那我想第二個要跟次長探討的修法方向是大學教師的評鑑制度本席也是來自教學現場尤其是大學我們發現有很多評鑑制度殘害教師權益的狀況"},{"start":306.815,"end":312.453,"text":"大學法第21條規定是什麼呢評鑑的制度 是在協助教師"},{"start":313.82,"end":336.658,"text":"我直接念出來啦教學專業發展改善教學品質我講的這十二個字六個六個一組裡面有哪兩個字是最重要的市長你可以說嗎教學結果咧現在我們看到大學的現場行政權介入論文掛帥這符合嗎這符合嗎"},{"start":340.34,"end":367.404,"text":"跟委員報告 評鑑來講因為大學來講教學服務研究是三塊那主要評鑑還是在教學跟研究因為教學跟研究其實某種程度沒有 等一下嘛 對不起 市長我剛剛就說六個字六個字一組哪一個字是重點教學嘛 你現在突然又把研究偷渡進來顯然就不符合大學法規嘛那我們也根據監察院113年的調查報告就講了有萬年助理教授的現象"},{"start":368.184,"end":392.752,"text":"為什麼萬年 明明就是教學教學你就硬要給他搞一個研究研究我們就要講啊 有非常多狀況甚至啊 還要講說 你要捐錢要多上課 有多捐錢的 哇 可以加分多上課 超中點費的 可以加分你們有沒有去檢討有沒有說學校不可以這樣做有 公園報告"},{"start":393.872,"end":419.542,"text":"過去很多學校把他不當了去跟招生跟一些行政服務掛鉤這個教育部有告記兩次都沒有多次嚴正的去要求嚴正要求有沒有辦法學校只要違法的我們一定會從招生名額加補助去處理違什麼法你告訴我違什麼法違什麼法我們就是要用大學法來明確的去優化這個狀況嘛你們就沒有具體改善啊"},{"start":420.498,"end":427.371,"text":"所以我們想要講啦我想大家的心是一致的但是現在執行上就是有困難"},{"start":428.922,"end":453.948,"text":"我想還不只是評鑑未過的狀況還有一個什麼專案教師專案教師你聽過嗎一樣監察院也來糾舉啦教育部這是他的說法喔我以下講的全部是監察院的詞彙教育部放任大學以大量專案教師長期替代編制內的專任教師的員額"},{"start":455.268,"end":476.12,"text":"背離政策的目的都讀過吧監察院的糾正吧我用的形容詞全部是監察院使用的我沒有加油添醋喔最後呢說工作環境薪酬不合理的情形置若罔聞啊教育部的做法你知道是什麼嗎市長你知道教育部的做法是什麼嗎"},{"start":477.586,"end":498.344,"text":"上限令上限令砍一個專案教師給十萬對不對知道嗎我們是希望引導他轉正而不是去引導轉正那我好啊引導轉正結果咧你知道數字嗎你知道數字嗎次長106年到113年專案教師變少還變多你如果引導那專案教師應該變少嘛"},{"start":500.129,"end":519.845,"text":"變少還變多市長變少還變多我時間有限106到113變少還變多有增加一些什麼增加一些4%變6%這叫增加一些喔這叫增加一些喔到6.64%的老師是專案教師在高校體系合理嗎"},{"start":521.913,"end":543.468,"text":"這個我們不用修改嗎這個你可以用一份這樣的報告說A說 B說 C說 D說可以這樣子嗎 市長這一次大學法為什麼大家很急啦很希望討論我知道很多人還有很多意見 都很好但是教育部的態度要拿出來教師權益受到侵害"},{"start":544.471,"end":569.961,"text":"教育部就是要出來保護大家教師權益受到侵害 學生家長就受到侵害能不能當場承諾支持大學法修法重新檢討教師評鑑制度 知不知實好 這應該的好 謝謝次長我想教育部的次長在這裡真的是勇於認識剛剛我們兩個訴求都直接勇於說我們支持"},{"start":570.561,"end":588.409,"text":"那我也希望接下來22號23號大家會有很完整充分的討論下一步下一次出來的意見希望能夠有自己的看法不要擔心不要害怕你們一定站在人民這裡人民也會站在你們這裡接下來次長我們要來談到AI高教的議題"},{"start":589.91,"end":601.557,"text":"那當然過去的事我們還是要處理未來的事我們也要看接下來高教的議題啊您認為AI的發展對大學文憑來講利多還是利空"},{"start":603.356,"end":625.479,"text":"大學文憑 增值還是貶值利弊互見其實有利多有利空 我個人的觀察一半一半 沒關係 大家各自有各自的看法那我們直接幫你整理了這個Gallup有調查 2025年只有35%的美國人認為大學教育非常重要在2010年的時候是75%"},{"start":627.06,"end":651.379,"text":"那認為大學教育不太重要的人數從2010年的4%攀升到25%哈佛大學也做了研究其實Freshman不受歡迎剛大學畢業以前我們都講大學畢業即失業很不好的一句話很可能因為AI要變成事實那無獨有偶聯合報也刊登了一張世界經濟論壇所講的這個就業前景報告"},{"start":655.422,"end":675.412,"text":"其中AI大數據或者是寫作數學行銷媒體全部會被AI取代甚至軟體程式設計這都是非常非常大比例的甚至馬斯克在一天前講了他說我不太明白現在為什麼還會有人要上大學"},{"start":676.412,"end":705.467,"text":"當然我們不一定要認同馬斯克但是我們想要跟次長講的是高教體制很可能會受到挑戰而且不是一半一半啦很不幸的有可能會變成利空請問教育部採取了哪些因應措施你也承認有利空啊你採取了哪些因應措施我想我們現在在AI的人才培育以後如果大原則有四個啦第一個具體措施我不要講原則原則大家都會講措施"},{"start":706.513,"end":718.384,"text":"ActionAction就是我們要教學生能夠去應用AI工具我們像台卡大聯盟這個部分就是會來做好 第一個讓學生能夠運用這些工具去解決問題"},{"start":719.872,"end":738.089,"text":"那这是原则啊第二个action是什么所以这个部分第二个action是什么我们从国中小的相关的一个课程的引导跟大学这一块我们在那个学分学成或是透过一些加值的课程来让学生能够去解决第三个第三个要负责任的去"},{"start":738.949,"end":759.669,"text":"Action是什么这是原则嘛所以这一块将来会在一些有关于AI的使用伦理的部分市长我打断你啦因为时间有限其实你刚刚回去听你会发现你讲的很多是原则啦里面第一个Action抬卡我马上来讲但是呢刚刚你讲的什么指引啊我们昨天也提过了啦"},{"start":760.39,"end":787.689,"text":"市長也都說要回去檢討啦我們來看TICA再給我一點時間TICA我們擔心的是什麼因為有不同的人要做比較深度AI的教育或比較基礎的教育結果我們去問教育部說你們有沒有分說到底來上TICA的這個課程科系的比例文科的理科的每一個大學的科系剛剛這個記者都講得很清楚啊有沒有統計市長你知道有沒有統計"},{"start":788.908,"end":812.813,"text":"我們都有資料 我們可以分析資料給委員什麼有資料 我們要的時候就說沒有統計啊誰說謊 誰台卡 來修課學生我直接唸給您聽啦要後續研議 蒐集陣列聯盟學校學系及學生修讀情形你們沒有啊所以我們可以來統計所以我問你過去有沒有統計 你跟我說有有 我之後會統計"},{"start":814.358,"end":835.603,"text":"市長 我們不要這樣 但沒關係 有開始做就好因為我們現在就是急啊 就要有action啊我們目標一致 但是要有動作好不好還有什麼 還有百億啊我剩最後兩頁啦 最後一頁啦百億 2025年9月 編了100億五個月過去了 做了什麼"},{"start":836.894,"end":849.494,"text":"什麼Action你們說要什麼人才啦什麼研究型大學Action有沒有Action結果我們問了索取資料到剛剛啊我還沒拿到啊"},{"start":852.047,"end":876.014,"text":"這是什麼 這是詐騙集團嗎不是吧跟委員報告因為我們的作業要點是前一兩天有來做說明跟相關的學校已經在做說明收集他們的意見你已經通過了對 但是這一筆預算到現在五個月你現在才開始在說明跟委員報告因為這一筆預算是從115跟116編列編列在115年跟116年是特別預算的部分"},{"start":876.474,"end":891.483,"text":"那因為細緻的一個作業需要學校實務作業面上能夠比較能夠符合現狀所以我們有做說明您剛剛也說了嘛今年就可以用的啊你一月才在說明討論我們跟你們問要怎麼執行你們資料也給不出來"},{"start":892.423,"end":907.885,"text":"沒有關係我們要動作快要有動作而且動作要快所以次長啊我想有一些委員啊動輒提出什麼115年度的預算案說什麼不省啊業務受到影響本席要說啊錢丟給教育部啊"},{"start":908.769,"end":923.089,"text":"完全沒有回聲五個月說現在要說明所以給了錢也沒有用如果有什麼專案可以提出來預算新興的項目也可以提出來也可以來說明目前我沒有看到任何說明沒有任何人來找我們說明"},{"start":924.17,"end":938.364,"text":"AI的發展對於高等教育利空還是利多大家可以持續討論但是我們擔心萬一利空您剛剛也承認會有利空我們就要準備而且要有action完全取決政府如何因應啊"},{"start":939.671,"end":966.25,"text":"我想次長沒關係如果您有回應可以會後給我報告但是我想要講的是如果我們的部長一心只熱衷政治無心推展教育業務如果底下的業務單位有出現螺絲鬆散的狀況我想也是預料之中但我想次長您今天勇於認識我們還是要給您肯定但是最終如果我們沒有辦法趕快做大學法的更多討論甚至修正"},{"start":967.131,"end":993.009,"text":"受苦的會是一屆又一屆的大學生那我想今天藉由這樣的一個機會我們也是督促啦 鞭策啦我想有看直播看到我們這一段質詢都會知道我們就說要有action而且action要快教育部某種程度也提出回應但是能不能很多的項目不要透過這樣那這樣我們立法院來當教育部就好顯然不是嘛還是教育部就不要存在了讓各地的教育局來做也不是嘛"},{"start":993.769,"end":1016.006,"text":"希望勸我們的教育部部長啊回頭是岸趕快把專注力放在教育政策教育的法規上才不會被人民放進他們心中的黑名單好不好各位報告我們會後會提供人才協議但是確實預算我們明年的新項目包括我們補助151號大學整修老師教室這確實是要立法院幫忙有沒有人來我們辦公室說明過"},{"start":1016.967,"end":1035.564,"text":"有沒有人來我們辦公室說明過新興預算來報告啊沒問題啊可以啊那要有人來喔那您現在有承諾喔那來說明喔我不要到最後我們等到最後沒有人來說明現在1月8號囉好不好好 謝謝謝謝葛如君委員那市長請回座"},{"start":1042.316,"end":1064.39,"text":"呃請陳秀寶委員發言那質詢那陳秀寶委員之後那就休息10分鐘因為時間好那就這樣子是你一起委員之後休息10分鐘謝謝主席請主持長請主持長"},{"start":1071.289,"end":1095.723,"text":"我們會提出一個各界希望能夠找到最大公約數的一個公式版本出來本席是希望說教育部你們廣大各界的意見之後呢盡快來提出大學法的修正案我們來提升學生的校園民主參與來促進學生權益的保障"},{"start":1096.283,"end":1099.464,"text":"好 接下來本席這邊想先關心一下關於學生會費的問題在大學入學的時候學生會收到學雜費的繳費單然後也會有一張額外的學生會費的繳費單本席問過很多青年其實他們也分享他們幾乎沒有繳過錢"},{"start":1115.089,"end":1125.874,"text":"因為在入學的時候學長學姐會特別提醒他這個費用可以不用繳因為他們覺得學生會好像沒有做什麼事次長你有聽過這樣子的說法跟這樣做法嗎"},{"start":1127.639,"end":1147.89,"text":"有听说但是我想学生会的同学都很努力的在提升学生的参与所以其实你也是听过的也知道说有这样的事情近年来大专院校从学生会跟碧莲会等这些学生的自治团组织时有传出会费被侵占的状况从南到北都有"},{"start":1148.47,"end":1158.023,"text":"那次長 教育部是不是有針對這個情況來研議要如何防範我們關於匯費的監督以及防範的弊端我們也有要研議怎樣的方式嗎"},{"start":1160.029,"end":1184.39,"text":"不是 我請 因為金融署這邊有一些具體的做法我是不是請副署長說明一下好是 謝謝委員那我們大概針對就是學生會新任的幹部還有包括學校學生會業務的承辦人員都會做財務智能相關研習那我們現在也把對財務監督的這一塊也把它放在國立大學跟私立大學的獎補助的指標裡面那也 對所以我們把"},{"start":1185.451,"end":1204.822,"text":"監督这个部分的这个很重要的放进去指标好那先这样子你有比较详细的你再一份那个书面报告会要提供给委员那本席这边提到这个是觉得说其实为什么学生会费会让很多大学生不愿意缴哪一部分就是因为我刚刚讲入学的时候可能学长姐就告诉他这个可以不用缴"},{"start":1205.282,"end":1229.667,"text":"那一部分是因為學生會費這個不透明還有一部分就是因為大學生覺得說他們對於學生會的這個業務很陌生覺得好像跟自身很不相關所以本席希望說教育部研擬大學法修正的時候可以納入學生會費財務資訊透明的規定以及協助學生會這個業務推廣還有促進學生校園民主參與的部分這個你們可以研議嗎"},{"start":1230.327,"end":1244.334,"text":"是 我想在學生會費這是一個很基礎的部分就是說我們大學跟教育部應該跟學生會一起來努力把這個架構起來不然的話學生對於學生會"},{"start":1247.395,"end":1272.954,"text":"更无感的话事实上它缴合费用的意愿就会更低所以这一块我们应该跟学生一起来努力大学法这个部分关于财务相关的监管的机制我们是不是可以在大学法里面也有这样子的相关的规范这个你们本席自己也会有一个修法的版本我也希望说教育部这边可以采纳就是有这样子的方向好 同样的问题也发生在系学会您"},{"start":1274.915,"end":1303.454,"text":"次长您应该知道说系学会也会另外收一笔系学会的费对那本席也问过青年的意见经验他们大部分都会缴其实系学会的会费他们同样会他们反而会缴同样是因为学长姐会说这个要缴他们告诉他那个学生会不用缴但是系学会要缴那再来就是可能是同侪的压力因为同一个系属的同学如果只有少部分没有缴那在求学的过程里面可能会觉得有点尴尬但是这个"},{"start":1304.555,"end":1316.583,"text":"系学会的部分我们有什么监督的机制来监督这些经费吗在学生会还有学生议会但是系学会好像没有是不是没有这样的相关的组织可以来监督"},{"start":1319.016,"end":1348.488,"text":"是 确实目前在系学会的部分比较是由学校这边来协助但是如果刚刚回到我想经费的运用会牵制到学生对于系学会或学生会的一个认同那这块我们会积极来协助系学会和学生会因为去年也发生了某大学的系学会的资金被卷款的这个现象所以我们可以发现说其实各校的系学会的费用收费其实没有统一的标准"},{"start":1348.988,"end":1374.565,"text":"那有的系學會可能一次就收到位可能一次就收好幾千塊對學生而來來講可能是拒款的這樣的一個金額那這個時候收這樣的款項進來與其我們在那邊考驗人性本席覺得說有制度的這個監督我們更能夠防範這些侵佔這些相關的情勢發生所以針對系學會的部分教育部會不會去制定一個相關的規範"},{"start":1375.645,"end":1390.582,"text":"我想从系学会跟学生会来讲权跟责是要相符的教育部跟学校是有义务来协助学生会把这样的学生会和系学会把这样的架构弄清楚然后让同学更能够认同让整个学生自治参与可以往前走"},{"start":1392.022,"end":1413.548,"text":"接下来我们要讨论的是学生会现在会面临的一些问题跟挑战根据青年署公布的112年度全国大专校院学生会的概况调查指出目前各大专校院协助学生会运作的辅导主管其实有超过半数并没有具有法治教育或资商辅导的资历"},{"start":1414.048,"end":1433.281,"text":"那這樣子是不是能夠協助學生會的運作其實也有一定的疑慮那再者呢學生會有透過問卷來表示他們目前遇到最大宗的問題是人才傳承就是不出來參選或找不到幹部那接續的問題可能有跟學校的衝突還有選舉事務"},{"start":1434.662,"end":1435.282,"text":"我想分两个部分"},{"start":1449.929,"end":1471.902,"text":"第一个精神署这边他们其实每年都有一些相关的培训营跟传承营针对于学生会的干部针对于学校的学务主管们都有相关的这种培训的一个课程跟营队第二个部分就是说其实这是寄生弹诞生机其实同学讲了一句话让我觉得很有道理就是说"},{"start":1472.842,"end":1489.535,"text":"其實不能說學生參與率低是因為他們沒有足夠的賦權導致學生會沒有辦法在學校裡面被學生認同說他可以幫同學爭取更多所以怎麼來協助學生會有更多的賦權支持參與那其實學生會可以在一個健全的制度之下正常的運作我覺得這是一個非常重要的那剛剛次長你也回答到我現在要問的一個問題"},{"start":1497.441,"end":1521.743,"text":"就是負責監督學生會的學生議會他們也在問卷中有建議說青年署應該要規劃訓練課程例如說議事規則學生權益法規的嚴厲組織的運作及校務的參與等等這一些相關的課程都是可以很具體的協助學生在學生自治的組織的參與那我想問一下目前有沒有針對學生的剛您有回答說有這樣的課程"},{"start":1522.884,"end":1540.234,"text":"那這樣的課程我們每年會辦理期長我們去年以去年來講有多少學生有參與課程謝謝委員我們每年大概針對學生業務的承辦人員就是在暑期的時候針對幹部是在九月的時候那參與的人數大概都有達到大專院校的七成左右"},{"start":1540.734,"end":1556.957,"text":"那另外我们除了我们自己由上而下的规划之外我们今年对不起114年我们也针对学生会可以由下而上的自己针对他需要的主题大部分可能是财务的管理那或者是在学生自治的法规他们也可以申请经费自己去自办相关的真人"},{"start":1557.731,"end":1578.549,"text":"如果如同刚才回答了有七成的话那应该也来算是蛮踊跃的啦但是这样的课程参与了之后对于整个学生你们有没有再有一个回馈的机制让他们在参与课程之后去了解说实际上对他们的整个学生会运作会认知有的帮助"},{"start":1580.11,"end":1600.541,"text":"是我们都有针对就是学生参与演习之后再收集他们的一些回馈跟满意度好本席认为说其实意思规则学生权益来讲这些对于学生会学生来参与学生会跟学生议会是有很大的帮助学生他们了解自身的权益也是他们学习这个民主法治的这个参与重要的历程"},{"start":1601.141,"end":1624.9,"text":"那如果有這樣的課程我希望說我們也盡量鼓勵學生們可以參與那也希望說除了學生會的成員有意向來參與學生議會運作的這些人之外呢我們也希望說有更多的課程是適合所有大學生參加的課程協助他們了解他們權益以及相關的這個學生自治的事項"},{"start":1626.261,"end":1655.34,"text":"為什麼就是學生會之於其實學生會之於學生就像一般的工會之於產業我也會鼓勵我們地方的產業去參加工會其實你單一廠商的問題是個案可是工會發生就是大家都認為很重要的問題學生會也是你單一學生的問題好像就是你自己的問題可是學生會幫你發聲當你在學習上在受教權有受到權益的時候學生會會是維護學生權益一個很重要的力量喔"},{"start":1655.88,"end":1675.994,"text":"好 我們接下來再說各大專校院學生會常年存在的一個問題就是學生會選舉的投票率很低次長你看一下你們的調查報告可以發現欄位上最高的區間是30%以上代表教育部裡面也認為說投票率高達到30%以上應該算是學生會選舉的投票率的極限"},{"start":1677.475,"end":1701.557,"text":"學生會投票率這麼低包含很多問題就像一開始我們提到的時候很多學生他覺得我不知道學生會在做什麼或者說不清楚學生的權益那所以很多學生他連上網投票他們都不願意去投票他不願意到他們有到現場投票連上網投票他都不參加那這個部分呢次長您覺得教育部我們可以怎麼樣來促進學生參與學生自治這個相關的活動"},{"start":1702.398,"end":1728.467,"text":"所以這個問題也跟學生會的一些同學討論過了確實我們要從讓學生會給更多的賦權包含說他們在校會的參與在民選的參與在跟學生生活有關的相關的會議參與讓同學可以看到學生會可以幫到他們什麼我想這塊就是學生會一直在爭學生大會一直在爭取的部分"},{"start":1728.947,"end":1753.572,"text":"所以我们才说教育部我们一定会全力来支持这个部分但是细致的参与的状况可能还是可以看它是个比较近近的过程每个学校的规模大小风格文化背景不太一样这里面应该让它有一点弹性让学生会跟学校之间不是铁板一块的关系我想这块是教育部我们要努力的本期之前也有参与过学生团体开过座谈会"},{"start":1754.713,"end":1769.07,"text":"在针对这个部分本席也会有自己修法的版本那我们说了学生团体的诉求之外我刚刚提到的这个学生会的财务的透明监督以及学生参与这个校园民主的部分那其实市长您刚刚讲到一个重点就是父权"},{"start":1770.031,"end":1792.698,"text":"那到底這個我們給的權限我們給的參與的程度到哪裡就是要大家細緻的討論那我也希望說廣大各方的意見尤其在22號 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請副部長"},{"start":19.147,"end":44.189,"text":"大委員好你好我看今天修法提案的對於這個軍人啊這個陸海空在什麼情況之下加重刑罰其實老實講現在民進黨執政十年了咧這個這個提這個東西啊就提吧我們好好的討論公聽會好好的討論但是我要提的是我們要看"},{"start":45.37,"end":62.007,"text":"共諜啊共諜都在哪裡共諜都在綠營裡面啊賴清德當副總統的時候他裡面就有共諜然後吳釗燮當國安會秘書長的時候他當外交部長的共諜後來高升為這個國安會的秘書長"},{"start":65.49,"end":78.577,"text":"然後這個民進黨的這個立委裡面也助理共諜我不知道你這個這個其實共諜更加的規範我們國防部有沒有想到規範要共諜"},{"start":80.29,"end":102.623,"text":"共鐵 郭委員幫我們現在修這整個陸海空軍刑法第24條是針對軍人的部分是啊 我現在提醒你啦其實對國家危害更大的是共鐵啦他把國家的機密一捆一捆的帶走然後帶去哪裡你可以看到這個這個外交部長吳釗燮那時候當當部長的時候短短的時間調了八個邦交國然後跟他的助理"},{"start":109.287,"end":122.826,"text":"這麼close的助理 他是共諜 沒有關係嗎他的行程全部被掌握 對不對他到現在還高居這個 國安委的秘書長不要忘啦 大家都了解啊"},{"start":123.854,"end":129.639,"text":"你現在規範這個 我就說怎麼在工地都沒有看到工地剛剛就規範第二個問題 我想我們現在這個F16失事我們現在是很難過的10年裡面摔了 就是飛機失事11次我看前面也有 我也問你這個問題的我就請教你"},{"start":145.573,"end":155.542,"text":"關於這一次的飛行員他這件的整個事件你們國防部是不是已經有初步的調查結果 有沒有出來目前還沒有外界都不斷的跟你分析 就兩個嘛一個電腦的問題 一個是什麼飛行的事情 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我是空軍司令部的中央副參謀長當初因為現在跟各機型不一樣訓練出來的那個經費都不太一致那大概要接近一千多萬"},{"start":311.607,"end":338.476,"text":"我所了解的啦大概一兩千萬培養一個飛官一兩千萬他裡面要求很多的國家資源障礙都在身上這個飛官都非常的他他對於台灣的這個台海的安全有很大的影響力有很大的一個作用這樣子這樣現在又失蹤了我們看了很難過了但是所以回過來我還真的要講的是軍人待遇啊請問我們的軍人待遇跟其他國家比怎麼樣"},{"start":341.789,"end":369.376,"text":"要不然就問我就可以了 軍人待遇包委員 我們跟美軍來相比的話 確實是跟不上美軍一個月 平均一個月是兩千塊美金耶我們一個月多少錢啊 對不對所以 來 我們多少錢 你講一下吧這跟生活所需 就是一般的好吧 你扣一扣也沒差賊嘛我們多少嘛 我們多少嘛他一個月兩千美金 我們多少 一個月多少嘛"},{"start":370.678,"end":374.882,"text":"呃 跟各 各階級不太一樣下市 下市多少錢 下市大概五萬吧 差不多五萬嘛五萬嘛 對吧 阿人一個月兩千"},{"start":386.761,"end":407.73,"text":"是不是 這個 我說平均啦 都大小所以給軍人加薪 我們也三讀通過了總統也公告了 為什麼還不依法編列這個就是總預算一直卡在這裡的我都願意說 大概各退一步我會跟主機場講 可不可以我們公開承諾你公開承諾 誰要審總預算"},{"start":410.471,"end":438.478,"text":"你就把軍人待遇提升的這個補進來他說沒有錢 我說不會沒有錢啦我們大概預算總預算大概三兆過去十幾年平均3.5度一趴一點多趴 一算一趴就有300億絕對夠啊 怎麼不夠錢絕對夠就在於賴清德總統要不要拿掉他那個好鬥的心他只要拿掉了所以今天總預算不神就在於他一年之間"},{"start":439.653,"end":452.429,"text":"他只要承諾也不用退回總預算從不用只要公開承諾一審總預算我一定把這個最佳預算補上來一句話我們就審了這應該是很簡單的事情了有機會就回覆你們吧 謝謝好 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Tahovecahe等19人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員林月琴等17人擬具「大學法第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T11:37:28+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T11:43:50+08:00","duration":382,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.53659375,"end":7.371593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.87784375,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.51846875,"end":14.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.066593750000003,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.340343750000002,"end":20.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.669093750000002,"end":24.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.719093750000003,"end":27.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.570968750000002,"end":29.089718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.58784375,"end":27.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.84909375,"end":30.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.01346875,"end":31.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.519718750000003,"end":35.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.55284375,"end":38.235968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.74221875,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.79659375,"end":42.876593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.737218750000004,"end":44.682218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.88034375,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.94346875,"end":51.938468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.697843750000004,"end":54.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.828468750000006,"end":53.946593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.22471875,"end":57.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.35096875000001,"end":63.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.71721875,"end":69.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.80909375,"end":71.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.89346875000001,"end":71.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.47971875,"end":71.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.49659375,"end":71.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.51346875,"end":71.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.69909375,"end":72.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.45409375,"end":75.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.20034375,"end":77.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.17909375,"end":79.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.71034375,"end":81.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.94221875000001,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.80284375000001,"end":83.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.37221875,"end":86.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.71784375,"end":87.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.67971875,"end":88.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.92846875000001,"end":93.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.63221875,"end":95.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.80471875,"end":99.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.67784375000001,"end":100.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.21346875,"end":102.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.01909375000001,"end":103.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.23409375,"end":105.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.49534375,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.49034375000001,"end":112.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.70534375000001,"end":114.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.79346875,"end":117.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.66221875000001,"end":120.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.01221875,"end":137.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.55846875,"end":134.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.02659375000002,"end":136.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.03909375,"end":141.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.47346875,"end":139.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.63346875000002,"end":141.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.28721875000002,"end":145.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.96596875,"end":145.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.98284375,"end":145.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.99971875,"end":146.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.03346875,"end":146.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.86034375,"end":149.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.02471875,"end":149.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.47159375,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.20096875000002,"end":157.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.28909375,"end":157.60971875},{"speaker":"S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没有关系我们再查是 我特别查的好 谢谢伟全国法规资料库里面的除非是错误如果全国法规资料库有错误你们要跟他们讲好"},{"start":146.033,"end":166.264,"text":"好不好那时间差没问题不管是怎么样都是应该要调整这个从这几年大家对各方面的这些的一个基础都有在调整好这个就是希望如果"},{"start":167.901,"end":191.872,"text":"直接定在這個大協法35條那更好 這個是習近平委員還有本席也連署提案的一個當然審查的時候希望能夠大家一起來討論好 接下來我昨天也提了這個數字近五年大專校園學生出債協力從107學年度"},{"start":196.147,"end":222.62,"text":"严汉的落差原住民跟非原住民的差距31.9到了113学年度落差一直在增加现在是高达36.85%当然除了刚才我昨天昨天咨询的方向希望教育部能够去调整支持之外"},{"start":224.636,"end":252.682,"text":"我们先看这个我现在谈另外一个议题也跟这个有关系跟这个我们的出债协议会有关系我们看111学年度大专以上学校结生了休退学的人数如果我们看这个全国跟原住民的一个比例也有差距很大"},{"start":253.772,"end":278.982,"text":"我们看这个前体学生我们就看大专因为刚才的数字这个数字也包含博士硕士我们看大专大专前体学生修学比例5.87原住民学生大专学生10.55将近一半4.68的"},{"start":283.072,"end":307.49,"text":"高达一般学生高了4.68将近一半这会跟他的所得收入都有关系跟退学常常要去打工学生成绩当然就不好了就会有退学的状况退学也是高达落差5.63了"},{"start":310.132,"end":335.677,"text":"這樣的一個落差所以我昨天也有提到對不對這個有關我們的相關的這從108到現在都沒有調整我們的學雜費的減免那個部分也都沒有調整所以這個部分啊原住民學生不多但是次長您應該可以支持"},{"start":336.914,"end":360.875,"text":"原住民的教育的提升是重中之重好不好部长 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兩位好是 部長我先反映一下因為從1月1號開始我們國防部所有在我們各委員會的報告都出現被外界稱之為無字天書當然這個你們是以說要保密為由但是事實上我們都知道我們在立法院收到任何的機密文件事實上都會加封的我們的公文封都會一直加密"},{"start":40.416,"end":67.244,"text":"所以我覺得這個真的是多此一舉的這個形式主義因為像今天我們的國安局也有報告國安局也有很多機密也沒有任何一個部門是用這樣子都是555我覺得這個反而會變成淪為笑柄反而不好那另外呢就是我想還是要稍微回應一下因為我們認為就是說以正確的資料治理或者說保密作為這個每一份資料在製作的時候"},{"start":68.024,"end":74.949,"text":"本來就應該要具體實質精準不然因為我的時間有限喔但是當你們連我不想跟你爭辯這些東西啦主席各位先進委員 先進吳這不是很扯嗎 很好笑嗎好 我不想 我想把我的時間講比較嚴肅一點的話題喔"},{"start":87.837,"end":92.003,"text":"首先我們知道就是前兩天在花蓮外海的這個F16V這個坐機我們現在的飛官尚未 辛柏毅我們當然知道他還在搶救當中但是過去大概10年"},{"start":106.281,"end":131.192,"text":"其實幾乎每一年我們都看到我們優秀的工軍飛官在出現了這樣的一個飛機的一個事件那麼不管是這個勇營高校機幻象2000或者AT-3的教練機等等那有一些我們很幸運他們生還但是有很多都殉職我們在這邊還是至上最高最高的敬意"},{"start":131.992,"end":155.939,"text":"那麼另外就是在這一次的事件裡面剛才很多委員都討論以及關心到我們相關的包含我們這一家其實已經積零將近30年的這個F16E它事實上是奉展專案但是奉展專案呢一言再言那甚至提到連防寒衣都沒有我想請問部長"},{"start":157.879,"end":175.351,"text":"那麼在這兩天我們看到有一些網路上一些側翼說這個防寒衣跟我們這個在野黨立法院沒有通過1.25兆以及國防預算有關係請問一下1.25兆裡面有購買防寒衣嗎"},{"start":177.065,"end":195.202,"text":"跟委員報告 我想這個防安衣的這個部分是在114年就請軍購方式籌補就是應該是去年的預算去年的預算就編列對不對那12月底前有開始陸續去年12月底陸續交貨應該在今年的3月可以交貨完畢"},{"start":195.842,"end":210.908,"text":"好 這個我看到你之前有提到所以我們到現在為止我們F16的戰機飛行員沒有防寒衣跟我們1.25兆或明年的這個國防預算無關 是不是"},{"start":212.41,"end":239.571,"text":"這個防寒衣的分擔沒有在這個特別預算裡面所以我覺得我們這邊一定要先正本清源一下就是我們所有的預算該買就要買 該給就要給而防寒衣的預算我們確實有給好給滿那請問一下我們去年要採購的是我所了解是要一千兩百多件嘛 是不是大概是一千三百多件一千三百多件 到現在為止交貨幾件"},{"start":241.87,"end":266.772,"text":"陸陸因為去年下訂了之後目前現在一件都沒有嗎沒有像我們慢速機的部分200套400多套已經交了200套那因為戰鬥機的部分他要比較符合量身訂製所以說這個部分陸陸續續在交貨所以我確定一下也就是我們去年所採購的這個戰機的防寒衣到目前為止交貨是零"},{"start":267.392,"end":282.351,"text":"沒有 像在五聯隊他也已經有部分的交貨因為他的型號的關係 所以說他有的型號已經先交貨有部分已經先交了好 那你三四月間要交貨的數量多少就是全部交完 三月底全部交完"},{"start":282.591,"end":288.754,"text":"不是你還剩多少嘛我今天要講的是我們購買F16V買了那麼久沒有交貨好那我們說這個是因為什麼俄烏戰爭啊美國的什麼delay等等之類的那你今天連防寒衣是不是要告訴我同樣的一個理由呢委員這個去年採購今年就交貨了去年年底就開始交貨了"},{"start":306.704,"end":322.873,"text":"所以你覺得這交貨是正常的交貨正常的嗎如果交貨正常為什麼我們這一次在這個這個飛官我們的這個新博弈我們的飛官卻沒有防寒衣可以穿呢如果交貨正常為什麼他沒有防寒衣可以穿呢"},{"start":323.71,"end":348.847,"text":"這個我們歷任的司令也都非常的重視我們也做過很多的評估因為這個航班飛行衣主要是針對極地地區它會影響到飛行操作所以前面我們也評估過其他的飛行衣它會影響到操作所以說飛行員普遍的反應不好我們也就再尋商所以說這次也很幸運的能夠買到這一套大家都覺得還不錯可以使用又不太妨礙到飛行操作的一個航班飛行衣"},{"start":349.227,"end":369.536,"text":"我們主席站起來了我只是要講就是說我們今天的相關的預算不管是奉展專案已經給好給滿但是你就是沒有辦法如期完成到現在防篡系統還是沒有辦法安裝好然後防寒衣也是一樣然後用這個方式再來去批評說再也擋再擋預算"},{"start":371.157,"end":396.525,"text":"問題是之前的預算全部給好給滿你們沒有執行沒有到貨然後發生這樣的憾事是應該要去檢討的我剛剛講過去這麼多屆幾乎每一年都發生我希望我們國巨弟兄在第一線上我們要給他的設備是充足的尤其我們的預算都已經編列好了但是卻沒有辦法執行這一次確實透露出這樣很多的一個問題謝謝 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謝謝主席 那有請國防部 謝謝來 請副部長"},{"start":13.547,"end":41.32,"text":"好副部長辛苦了齁陳委員好我覺得你很辛苦的原因是啊你早上很可憐你一直在聽很多滑坡邏輯例如說對中國解放軍美女按讚例如說聽中國的流行歌像是前幾年台灣的中小學非常流行唱一首歌叫做小蘋果如果按照剛剛前面國民黨委員的發言邏輯所有當年一起唱小蘋果的甚至這幾年有政治人物一起唱孤勇者的可能都會"},{"start":42.501,"end":64.915,"text":"用國民黨的邏輯我再說一次用國民黨的邏輯都要受到這個影響我實在是說國民黨就是在欺騙人民在用滑坡邏輯要誤讀這個修法好來副部長我跟你討論其實我早上聽了這麼多委員的質詢其實相關的新聞事件他們不敢拿出來說的只有民進黨委員敢拿出來說包含手上有第一個"},{"start":66.196,"end":86.794,"text":"士官兵營區揮五星旗拍投降影片這個就非常具體了嘛拍的影片是談投降甚至在營區前面還有呢收賄拍投降影片洩密共諜案其實相關起訴的案例也都有了而且他們的行為非常非常的具體所以我們絕對認同今天你們所提出來的修法我想問一下到目前為止你們有相關的數量統計嗎類似像這樣具體的案件"},{"start":94.235,"end":111.368,"text":"現在整個案子有七件辦到簽約投降書以及刺探機密還有發展組織還有交付個人資料這都非常的清楚交付資料然後拍這些影片然後這些我覺得"},{"start":112.448,"end":131.082,"text":"國人也都可以理解當一個國軍士官兵他在當兵的期間做這樣的事情我認為國人都看得很清楚全台灣看不清楚的大概只有國民黨委員所以我們來看一下你們今天提出來的修法來下一張我們其實還是很想問如果按照"},{"start":132.563,"end":160.314,"text":"有一些國軍士官兵他們如果對法理上不是這麼了解我想不管是立法院這邊或者是提出修法單位我們都有義務跟有責任跟國軍士官兵說清楚當然我們也很希望後續的修法可以促成我們很在意的事情我們可以改進一些可能性包含穩定軍心啦確保軍人的國家忠誠那這個部分我不知道你們這裡怎麼看關於這個修法後穩定軍心確保軍人對於國家的忠誠這個部分"},{"start":160.994,"end":188.429,"text":"那確實是這樣子因為依照這個憲法跟國防法的規定軍人對國家效忠義務有明文的規定也考量現役軍人對敵人為效忠的表示沒有加以刑責的嚴禁會使部隊的紀律跟軍事安全遭受到嚴重的損害那第二個部分就是按照現在的司法實例來看現役軍人遭受到中共吸收以及對價關係目前都是以這個涉貪污自罪條例來判處"},{"start":189.89,"end":215.578,"text":"那單純考量現在單純向敵人表示效忠如果沒有加以行者的嚴禁的話會使部隊的距離跟軍事安全遭受嚴重的損害好 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我請教育部朱次長請朱次長委員好 次長好這個因為財政委員會有一個專報就是說如果行政院總預算沒有過的話對我們115年度我們的預算執行會有什麼樣的影響所以我想要請教因為我們教育部的預算同樣尚未審查如果預算真的沒有過對我們115年的執行會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":34.973,"end":60.653,"text":"跟委員報告我想分兩個部分一個是新興項目一個是延續性的部分在新興項目的部分我們在國立大學校舍老師的整建部分有提了15億那這15億其實是希望以五年的時間然後有75億來協助國立大學老師教授的一個整建跟文資的修繕那另外我們還有無人機載具的人才培育計畫"},{"start":61.434,"end":83.525,"text":"还有竹竹苗地区高中的一个新建的一个校舍因为竹竹苗地区的那个先竹地区的一个学习人口有增加那最后还有全国高中一个污水排水系统的提升那这些都是新兴项目如果没有审议的话事实上我们都会影响到这四个大案子的一个推动"},{"start":84.005,"end":108.703,"text":"另外在延續性的部分雖然延續性的部分我們還是可以按照去年的預算先執行但是如果此時沒有審查的話萬一有未來有一些增休增三那可能也會造成我們在預算執行的困擾我們執行了結果預算被砍了那這個部分也會有問題所以這塊其實很希望大院能夠協助部裡面的預算能夠擠出來審議"},{"start":109.443,"end":122.694,"text":"延續性的計畫有可能會沒有辦法來執行但是新興計畫是確定會無法執行那因為這個之前我很關心在你們新興計畫當中特別大專的老舊校舍因為你們這個計畫是五年連續計畫"},{"start":125.456,"end":149.015,"text":"那是特別要針對說超過40年以上然後需要耐震補強而且結構性危險的建築物有立即急迫性的我們趕快來補助那因為我覺得整個關係像舊年台大台大資源最多台大我們徐州路校舍我以前念書的地方到現在不是超過40年超過100年以上的好幾棟到現在還有沒修的那整個台大這樣的古蹟有大約有70棟"},{"start":150.636,"end":167.89,"text":"這個就需要補助嘛 那我請問一下現在如果你這個清淨計畫沒有過 那之前你們說請台大先來申請那現在怎麼辦 是學校先來跟你們申請我們再看看有沒有過 還是等到最後結果完了再請學校來申請因為這個計畫是一月份的嘛 怎麼辦呢 怎麼做"},{"start":168.73,"end":192.296,"text":"因為我們在115開始是有專項經費來支持那現在的做法都是用布裡面我們既有經費我們有補助請他們先來申請我們先從那邊去雲芝請他們來先來申請但是所以我們還是希望啦我們這個預算可以要審查要通過這些才有辦法來做好那接下來呢我先請市長你來看一個影片"},{"start":200.934,"end":206.542,"text":"好 這個是兩天前發生一個新聞事件但是對我來說我覺得它是一個很重大的"},{"start":208.018,"end":236.687,"text":"教師倫理 教學倫理的一個事件所以我想要來跟市長討論因為我們有公務人員服務的誓言所有的公務員都是要行政中立 關懷民眾 勇於任事所以我們討論這個事情 我不討論他的政治性也不討論意識形態因為他源頭是說這個有個北一女的老師不是這位老師 北一女的老師她把蔣文安市長的一個演講轉傳那她讚許說這個演講很棒 事實上我也認為我們市長演講很棒"},{"start":237.327,"end":254.942,"text":"但是學生有表達不同的意見那在這之後呢這位北運營的教師歐貴茲教師因為他透過媒體公開的發言說學生是腦殘等於是公然的透過媒體去羞辱跟公審學生因為他是具名的所以我就沒有匿名區辯識化處理了"},{"start":256.764,"end":279.099,"text":"那這個我認為這個已經有違我們教學倫理跟教師倫理那因為台北市政府至今沒有對這一個教師他這樣的公然透過媒體去說學生腦殘羞辱公審學生台北市政府還沒有做出回應所以我想要來討論因為我認為這個事件就算沒有違反教師法"},{"start":279.639,"end":303.725,"text":"他可能也已經違背了我們的這個公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法在我們這個考核辦法當中有幾點第一個 嚴刑不檢 致損害教育人員生育第二個 有不當行為 致有損學校名譽第三 教學輔導管教行為失當 有損學生學習權益我們是不是有這個考核辦法 市長"},{"start":305.325,"end":313.49,"text":"這個考核辦法是有嘛我先說齁其實我們民主社會都尊重言論自由教師跟公民一樣都可以有自己的政治立場"},{"start":315.263,"end":336.113,"text":"但是如果你一個老師你應該你的教學的本質責任應該是你對學生有不同意見 可以啊你可以跟學生辯論你可以跟學生討論 甚至你去引導學生去思考可是他是透過媒體然後公然的說學生就是腦殘只是因為學生的政治立場跟老師不同我認為這個很不恰當"},{"start":340.836,"end":350.183,"text":"那既然我們有這個考核辦法當中我們對教師的專業倫理其實是有明確規範的是否有違可以來進行討論"},{"start":354.341,"end":375.733,"text":"確實我們期待的老師在教學的時候應該遵守教育中立然後客尊他本來的一個專業精神而不是於應該是引導學生去建立一個好的公民素養所以這個部分我們先前其實也都要求各縣市政府要督導各級學校要去落實這個部分的一個奉祭"},{"start":377.128,"end":404.342,"text":"好 沒錯 所以我認為教育部我希望你們可以來跟台北市教育局來關心啦因為目前為止我看台北市教育局還沒有回覆因為我覺得一定要保障學生的權益那我們要完完全全的依據行政中立這個事件我們不是在討論說這個市長的演講好不好 不是也不是在討論說老師可不可以有政治立場 也不是而是一個老師他教學的專業倫理是什麼"},{"start":405.783,"end":420.847,"text":"是 我想客尊教育中立是在教育基本法很明確的一個認證好 那我希望台北市教育局可以趕快來關心這一個事件有沒有來違反我們的教師的專業倫理好 接下來就是大學法今天我們是討論這個大學法的修法上屆要開始討論那麼我們的召委也召開過公聽會我們的范雲委員也主持過公聽會"},{"start":432.43,"end":442.956,"text":"那麼 所以討論已經有一段時間但是呢 我看教育部到現在還沒有修法的版本我們在下個會期以前教育部有沒有辦法來提出版本"},{"start":443.564,"end":467.565,"text":"我們目前也是希望在下個會期能夠有一個各界溝通完一個定案的一個共識版本出來作為大家討論的一個參考好我希望這個時間還是要有一個時間表下個會期應該是可以有來凝聚共識那我自己最關心就是學生參與的部分第一個是校會會議當中學生比例的代表是不是要提高第二個校長臨選委員會中"},{"start":469.326,"end":495.769,"text":"要不要有學生代表這個因為我們之前看到有幾件學生在監督學校的時候受到阻礙的案例剛剛范瑩委員有提到台北大學宿舍案學生麥克風直接被關掉第二個我之前關切過北一大的這個前校長陳校長的這個案件那當時學生有關心但是一樣也遭受到這個阻礙所以呢我認為在具體的在校務會議當中要有學生代表的比例要把它提高這點我認為很重要"},{"start":496.249,"end":519.136,"text":"因為我們的青年基本法也剛通過我們要落實青年的公共參與這具體而言制度要來調整這個部分次長你的看法我想在校會議裡面學生參與是非常重要的一環目前大學的共識也是希望說十分之一已經實施二十年了漸進的往前提高到八分之一或許是一個選項"},{"start":520.896,"end":540.007,"text":"至於要是不是再提高因為學校就會考慮到每個學校的規模他的一個學校的狀況學生參與程度不同大學是希望這一塊能夠就有一些可以影響調高的比例可以討論但是方向要朝調高來修改那麼校長臨選的會議現在現行的大學當中我們有幾層的是已經有學生代表"},{"start":547.972,"end":568.527,"text":"我們如果以公私立來分公立大學公立大學四十五校裡面已經有二十九校有學生的是公立大學其實已經有將近七成都有學生代表了是我們期待的是未來能夠希望未來如果我們朝向校長臨選會都有學生代表的修法方向的話現在教育部你們的看法怎麼樣呢"},{"start":569.087,"end":582.415,"text":"也是努力的希望透過這個方向跟在依照這個方向跟校長溝通工藝大學因為其實實務上已經在推行也許私校會有一些意見那就請你們教育部要再多加的溝通討論好不好好謝謝市長謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩儀"}]}},{"id":"166997","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166997","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f54382aded6c11d274240af7842d899401a61d89202e029a9f2014c0753048fa81f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"11:24:33 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謝謝主席 有請部長來 部長請"},{"start":12.08,"end":34.594,"text":"部長好那這個呢當然今天因為這一個F16的事情大家都應該非常的關心那因為前面我覺得也是蠻多委員都已經問過相關的內容所以這個部分我可能就不再問現在對我們來講搜救應該還是最重要的事情那還是不做過多的臆測等到這一個相對應的報告出來之後我們可能來日有時間的時候再來做一個詢問"},{"start":36.455,"end":61.54,"text":"所以這次我還是先問這次原本排的軍演的主題其中有幾個小地方就是說因為大概在12月29號下午的時候網路上就出現國防部長休假未歸這樣的假消息我看它流傳的速度非常快你看我左上角的這個截圖它短短的時間是大概12萬的觀看"},{"start":63.9,"end":89.985,"text":"那接下來就有大量的這個帳號全部都在講一樣的內容那這個對我來講當然是是很有疑問的一件事情那我認為在最後國防部出來澄清的方式是很妥當的就是有這樣的一個畫面說其實這個部長一直都在然後也是在跟大家討論這個軍演應該怎麼對抗所以我現在想要問的事情就是說理論上因為"},{"start":90.805,"end":114.202,"text":"不管是軍演還是未來我們會遇到的這些危難這些所謂的假消息所謂的這些謠言一定會跟這次軍演比起來大概是等比級數的增加所以我們一定是有相關的單位在負責這件事情我就不要問是哪一個單位或者說也不用請單位上來講但因為公布這張照片的時候已經是12月30的中午"},{"start":115.023,"end":133.449,"text":"那這一個呢是在12月29大概下午我記得一兩點的時候就開始油了也就是說它整整燒了24小時然後呢澄清才出現那這個對我來講會很麻煩是我後來大概重整了一下這個流量大概超過30萬到40萬支浦這個謠言其實傳得非常非常的廣"},{"start":134.229,"end":158.901,"text":"那我們有沒有什麼應該比較好的機制就是說我們能夠在更早的時間就發現因為第一個要先發現嘛就跟我們這個無人機的這個系統一樣假設我們今天在偵測的時候根本就偵測不到對方就算我們有干擾槍也沒有意義嘛所以我們一定要先偵測到有這樣的一個謠言的散播然後它有一定的量然後我們在多短的時間之內要快速的回應因為在那一個時候大家都很忙"},{"start":159.381,"end":168.395,"text":"但是不管怎樣國安部一定會有一個要主責這些事情的人所以能不能夠更快速的回應這件事情呢接下來有沒有什麼更好的機制"},{"start":169.729,"end":191.609,"text":"跟委員報告 我想我們事後來檢討就是說因為在當時這個 因為說由交通部長站帶這件事情就很離譜我們下面他有些留言說這個是假消息所以也許我們在評估這個危害程度的時候我們可能"},{"start":192.99,"end":216.095,"text":"沒有太以一個比較比較應該怎麼講就是說一個標準一個比較更就是說我們在評估這個危害程度的時候我們應該要不要失準我想我們事後來回應這件事情那所以我們"},{"start":218.676,"end":236.505,"text":"當然所以應該確實如您所指教的是說29號發生這樣的事情的時候我們應該要立即就叫回應那當然我們事後當然實際上這個在在在這個信息這個是一件事當然後來我們也在"},{"start":237.885,"end":256.858,"text":"臨時記者會我們有再次對外說明但是委員只要說我們能不能再快一點這件事情我覺得我們是可以來檢討的因為像以我們自己來講我第一時間看到的時候我一定會想要趕快做回應但我要做回應之前我一定要先參考官方的說法但是官方那時候其實真的大家都在忙"},{"start":257.518,"end":282.947,"text":"所以因為畢竟就是軍演嘛這件事情其實對國防部來講是馬上需要去應對你也不知道他有沒有可能油煙轉戰啊等等之類的所以呢有沒有特別的這樣的任務變成確實像我那一天我們都在忙這個軍演的事情事實上我自己都不知道有這樣的事所以我們這個戰戰單位或者是發言人確實還是要有一些快速的評估"},{"start":283.507,"end":310.808,"text":"委員好 報委員我是發言人這段跟委員報告一下錯假訊息回應確實是一個很嚴重的問題這裡面我們面對的也有一些挑戰比方說因為它現在錯假訊息海量很多我們在評估到底什麼樣的訊息要回覆什麼樣的訊息我不要回覆免得說它本身沒有太大的量我回了以後反倒把它的量突出來了所以我們在發現錯假訊息我們一定會先評估說它的影響大概什麼樣的一個狀態它的滲透狀態大概怎麼樣"},{"start":312.529,"end":339.959,"text":"我們的大眾對這個錯假訊息接受程度怎麼樣以部長休假這個訊息來說在29號當天晚上我們看到的時候其實它的第一個量不大第二個我們已經有些民眾在底下留言說這是假訊息所以我們大概那個時候還在觀察它的一個狀況那到30號我們發現30號清晨的時候我們發現它的量開始擴散的時候所以我們30號其實就開始採取一些措施然後配合記者會的部分也把這個訊息來去做一個說明"},{"start":341.119,"end":355.033,"text":"其實在判斷這些事情到底會燒還是不會燒它有幾個標準我還是要講第一個回應的內容其實是非常好的因為你不要去跟對方進入細節就直接一個照片大家自然就會引用說部長的照片就在這裡就在這邊坐鎮這個指揮這個回應的內容是完全沒問題的"},{"start":358.877,"end":384.294,"text":"那它到底因為一開始看起來量沒有大但是你看後來到十幾萬 二十幾萬為什麼會這個樣子呢通常有兩件事情第一個是它的源頭就是有一些它是經常性的造謠的源頭所以那個源頭就算它一開始沒流量它有可能會被後續炒作第二個就是在轉發的那些帳號是不是常常在做這些事情的帳號其實這兩個標準一旦符合了就算一開始不燒可能六小時以後它就會燒那這時候"},{"start":386.036,"end":406.277,"text":"就是說先出來講講也不要講它細節因為就像剛剛提到的你講細節你在幫它擴散就一張照片而已一張照片簡簡單單的告訴大家我們現在在做什麼這其實就已經有那個效果所以我覺得當然每一次我們遇到這樣的狀況我們就是不斷不斷的精進所以這一次有做到好的地方但也有可能比較慢的部分反正我們就是不斷的往前精進"},{"start":407.918,"end":429.364,"text":"接下來就是這一個事情其實也非常的類似這一個事情就是他播出101的這一個大樓的影像疑似他就說我這個無人機在監控這個在回應的時候其實也有幾個要注意的地方比如說像一開始假設很快速的回應這件事情說這個只不過是旁邊的一個監視器"},{"start":430.444,"end":452.616,"text":"他已經預料到你可能會這樣做了以後呢這個他們的戰法叫反射性控制他馬上再丟一個比較遠的照片雖然那個遠的照片看起來我看起來是合成的但是他就會讓你的第一次的這一個闢謠反而落入他的陷阱所以這一個事情要怎麼回應又是另外一門藝術這一個當然少更大為什麼因為這個新聞媒體第一時間還去報導他"},{"start":454.057,"end":474.625,"text":"那新聞媒體就是我記得是我們的平面的那個平面的媒體電子化的平面媒體他第一時間報導這個事情的時候那他必燒無疑嘛因為他一定會擴散出去這個傳統媒體的力量非常的強所以呢在這一個方面應該要怎麼做我覺得這也有時候要檢討的地方但是這個因為時間的關係這個我就不多說因為我剛剛前面大概已經講了一些"},{"start":475.345,"end":500.353,"text":"那因為接下來我有看到就是說這個國安局的專報他這邊其實有特別提到就是說呢這一次這一個中共在這一次12月的時候那個訊息有19000多則異常帳號799組那根據我的認知這個看起來是有在往上提高的趨勢然後他也有提到裡面可能有這個所謂的駭客攻擊"},{"start":501.373,"end":523.548,"text":"這個我上次質詢的時候大概有問過這個我先跳過這就是我剛剛講的這個判斷準則判斷準則我們私下再討論這個沒問題我們也沒有必要把判斷準則講那麼清楚給中國聽但因為國安局的專報提到第一個大量賬號還有大量的這個網路的攻擊所以我在之前有講過就是因為美國戰爭部11月6號的時候他有推動一個網站司令部的改革"},{"start":524.048,"end":546.773,"text":"那網站steamback就是為了要應對這些事情他不是只有在應對跟駭客有關的他也有應對跟這些所謂的錯假訊息有關的所以他的這個整體的因為連美國戰爭部都說這個因為他們的網站其實對我們來講其實已經非常先進了就他們都還說還要再做更進一步的改革這個改革我覺得對台灣一定有一個我們有可能要學習的地方"},{"start":547.193,"end":572.908,"text":"所以我在過去呢在針對尤其像我們的資通電啊等等之類的有提出一些建議不管是輔導他的這一些證照的這個預算要怎麼做啊雖然我們現在總預算一直沒有辦法審然後還包含呢就是他們的績效怎麼計算這件事情我之前有稍微提過都可以整合在裡面那更包含我剛剛在前面講的這些東西我覺得我們這些都可以再往前精進那因為時間的關係所以呢我就大概先到這邊那但之後"},{"start":573.348,"end":587.479,"text":"又有類似議題的時候呢或許我們可以再多做討論那謝謝部長謝謝主席剛剛委員所指教的我們會列入我們台美交流的裡面重要的一環就我們中電軍跟他們的網站的謝謝部長各位請回"}]}},{"id":"166994","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166994","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5438d75092c542a3e9cf9a68a52843585b01d89202e029a9f2055ea099cd124814b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:00:32 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資安與國安防衛上本來就是世界級的標準我們能守住的監保系統 金融體系 國安資 資安"},{"start":223.118,"end":242.524,"text":"卻說自己連換一個地方投票都做不到這不符合台灣真實的能力而且民眾黨版本刻意避開所有高風險的科技沒有新增漏洞只是合理調整的流程"},{"start":243.294,"end":261.085,"text":"第四 這個制度真是回應民間團體於年輕世代的真實需求現在被制度擋在門外的真是大家長期關心的那一群人 外地工作者 打工學生"},{"start":262.027,"end":269.433,"text":"醫療警消輪班勞工北漂南漂的青年離島居民他們不是不要投票而是不應該為了投票付出不合理的代價一個好的民主制度不該只服務時間多資源多動員能力強的人最後"},{"start":288.103,"end":313.824,"text":"感謝大家來給我們最寶貴的意見希望今天討論能讓大家清楚看見真正的民主不叫做人民走更遠而是讓制度走進人民不再急投票不是政治操作而是一項便民安全可監督"},{"start":314.805,"end":337.865,"text":"可落實的制度該成為一個真實請聽專家回應人民生活現實的起點台灣有能力也有責任把民主制度做得更公平更安全及更有效的投票制度更民主的公民權謝謝大家"},{"start":343.462,"end":343.482,"text":"好"}]}},{"id":"166992","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166992","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5434a555100442049f30af7842d899401a61d89202e029a9f20cb86eaca5078d11d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:08:50 - 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呃 詳細的部分好像我了解這是一個呃 要不要說明一下一個"},{"start":129.735,"end":157.415,"text":"我是保安署處長這是一個一次性的帳號後面他有衍生其他我們都有反求他的IP位置確實是他是要匡遍我們國軍線推人員把這些資料送上去之後他去獲得你的個人資料然後去吸收利誘那這個目前我們有掌握到也有通報國安單位共同來應酬這個我們都有成立在國安局的專案機制下都有共同的在追爭以上報告"},{"start":157.995,"end":162.418,"text":"好 謝謝喔 這表示說其實現在國防部跟相關單位是有動起來為什麼會來特別質詢這個就是因為我也要必須強調為什麼我這個資訊是怎麼來的我這個資訊呢其實是來自於另外一個所謂靠北長官但是這個靠北長官很有趣喔他叫做靠北長官2026知己知彼大陸軍情我們知道其實喔像這樣的社群平台不勝美舉"},{"start":185.071,"end":191.213,"text":"我個人認為啦站在言論自由的角度真的有的時候各行各業都會有靠北什麼什麼這個我們以前在媒體也有所謂的靠北長官這個都是他們抒發但是如果說這樣子的這個社群媒體的存在他完全不單純因為我特別去了解了一下他是分享"},{"start":207.757,"end":225.393,"text":"大陸多種資訊避免井底之蛙看起來好像是要提供中國甚至於解放軍的資訊但是他所設立的地點在鳳凰城而他的管理員裡面呢部長你看一下有寫CAI"},{"start":227.174,"end":229.837,"text":"這個拼音應該是菜啦可是台灣的菜應該不是這樣拼然後還有什麼 彎彎go home彎彎回家這個都是中國慣用的統戰術語所以顯然這樣的管理員不單純"},{"start":245.911,"end":250.034,"text":"那麼裡面如果你去細看它的內容那就更詭異了比如說呢它有這個影片雖然說是要來顯示台灣的國軍威武但是裡面其實都是在講中國的解放軍有多強大然後呢有幫忙宣傳中國的貿易戰的說法甚至於還有什麼假借貸就是之前我非常關心的就是幫國軍弟兄"},{"start":276.171,"end":278.752,"text":"解圍讓他們好過年三個月零利息那麼就像剛剛也有報告過的這些零零種種喔這樣的新滲透的型態首先我還是要強調我不是要箝制言論自由因為最近在野黨不斷地在扣這樣的帽子"},{"start":292.797,"end":301.809,"text":"但是這樣的透過社群平台的滲透它確實存在那麼像這樣子到底要用什麼方式有效的杜絕難道說只是剛剛所講的我們聯手國安單位或者是調查單位來做處理嗎因為"},{"start":308.918,"end":323.189,"text":"這個畢竟是一個封閉的社群到底有哪些國軍弟兄有去參與了甚至於被他吸收到了訊息甚至於丟出一些相關的機密這個部分真的有辦法來做了解跟釐清嗎"},{"start":325.353,"end":353.671,"text":"我想我們一方面要對國軍我們有一個規定就是這個國軍在使用社群媒體的一個我這樣應該是另班在去年沒有前年的已經是前年的10月28號10月28我們另班的國軍人員使用社群媒體的一個陰性注意事項所以我們會加強宣導這個國軍他們特別是現役的人員他在使用這些社群媒體要"},{"start":354.264,"end":357.828,"text":"要注意的一些事項那當然現在我們還有一些"},{"start":359.844,"end":388.162,"text":"就是說他在網路上不斷的進行又吸這些作為我們這個在軍中的整個相關的這些保護的工作我們都要來加強來進行這樣子好 謝謝部長那我要就叫這個國安局的簡副局長因為副局長過去您剛好是有這個相關的資通電軍的背景所以來詢問你這個我想也是您的專業因為我覺得揭露是最重要的"},{"start":388.502,"end":402.7,"text":"那麼目前本席為什麼特別一再的質詢的部分就是希望透過質詢能夠進行揭露但是對於國安局來講包括你看他特別的故意涉及不論是真的或假的他就把他擺在這個所謂美國的鳳凰城那麼像這樣的部分我們在"},{"start":406.665,"end":431.821,"text":"跟其他比如美國或是其他相關的單位除了我們內部的所謂訊息相通之外那麼對外的部分我們有一些其他的合作嗎包括像這樣子以假美國或是真美國但是其實是在美國的地點來進行對於台灣國軍的滲透又或者是做資料的收集那這個部分國安局有什麼樣相對因應的作為嗎"},{"start":433.198,"end":452.229,"text":"向委員報告一下我們目前針對於友方目前針對情報的合作是都有密切的接觸針對這些利用在國外的網站網址的部分我們也都做交換的情資即使在我們國內的部分我們也請相關的偵查單位去做調子去做相關的研析是有的"},{"start":452.728,"end":457.57,"text":"好那本席其實要求很簡單就是像這樣如果必要的時候要必要的揭露而揭露的對象不一定是大眾尤其是像剛剛部長也有特別提到了對於我們國軍弟兄他們在社群媒體上面的使用是有一個特別的規範但是一旦發現這種有疑義有問題的就請他們其實要有一些警惕"},{"start":474.395,"end":495.789,"text":"那麼這樣的揭露不一定要對一般的民眾但是我認為在軍中對於袍澤的部分其實是可以提供那包括連退役的當然這是退輔會的部分那麼這樣子就可以避免他們誤入其中的陷阱可以嗎是我想這我們應該要努力的方向好 謝謝好 謝謝那林楚英委員各位請回答"}]}},{"id":"166991","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166991","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f543c84d82d89f342b78324c55f2e48b25a91d89202e029a9f20e2ce94d99c1cf0755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:05:45 - 11:15:55","影片長度":"00:10:10","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員陳秀寳等22人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「大學法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員柯志恩等21人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員翁曉玲等 16 人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員林月琴等17人擬具「大學法第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T11:05:45+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T11:15:55+08:00","duration":610,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.0222187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.629093750000001,"end":7.709093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.181593750000001,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.31159375,"end":46.268468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.94721875,"end":23.554718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.774718750000005,"end":53.085968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.76534375,"end":53.220968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.220968750000004,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.52284375,"end":68.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.97409375000001,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.89346875000001,"end":70.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.73721875000001,"end":70.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.29409375,"end":75.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.61034375,"end":73.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.66034375000001,"end":90.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.04721875,"end":85.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.76784375000001,"end":114.86534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.70909375000001,"end":118.61159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.95346875000001,"end":148.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.53096875,"end":160.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.83471875,"end":148.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.52471875,"end":187.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.50221875,"end":170.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.30534375000002,"end":190.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.56659375,"end":214.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.14096875,"end":214.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.66409375,"end":215.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.60909375,"end":229.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.72096875000003,"end":230.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.10471875000002,"end":242.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.76284375,"end":231.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.78721875000002,"end":237.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.86221875,"end":248.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.98784375000002,"end":274.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.60659375,"end":259.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.69471875,"end":262.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.47096875,"end":262.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.28346875,"end":274.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.00909375000003,"end":296.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.13659375000003,"end":311.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.23971875,"end":315.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.09971875,"end":331.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.47346875,"end":328.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.23221875,"end":337.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.10471875,"end":354.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.05346875000004,"end":343.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.69284375,"end":365.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.18471875,"end":367.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.39971875000003,"end":376.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.99409375000005,"end":371.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.82471875000005,"end":375.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.95534375,"end":408.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.94659375000003,"end":378.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.60034375000004,"end":380.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.54096875000005,"end":382.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.28784375000004,"end":433.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.10659375,"end":440.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.36284375,"end":441.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.13909375000003,"end":451.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.61846875000003,"end":454.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.74034375,"end":478.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.60596875000005,"end":493.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.70909375,"end":509.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.53471875,"end":504.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.104093750000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要請次長好 有請次長"},{"start":13.322,"end":37.853,"text":"好謝謝主席謝謝次長就是說我想今天我就來跟次長好好來討論這個學生團體因為我們這一年來去年開始有陸陸續續跟了很多的學生團體討論大家關注的幾個重點就是說在校長遴選的部分還有就是校務會議學生能夠參與的比例以及最後一個他們學生自治空間那我想我們先從校務會議因為這個以前就已經有討論過"},{"start":38.993,"end":45.99,"text":"所以我想要请次长先回想一下这个十分之一当时到底是怎么定出来的"},{"start":46.82,"end":74.97,"text":"好 我跟委員說明在94年修大學法的時候剛好那個時候我是科長沒錯那時候在處理的時候我們有開一個全國的學生的一個自治會議先分區 然後在台大開一個大會那十分之一是在那時候提出來的一個共識所以是當時學生團體的共識是嗎對 最早的時候根本沒有這個規定我知道 就在94年之前是沒有但是在第十屆第五期的這個"},{"start":76.924,"end":93.618,"text":"教文委員會的第十次會議也就是111年的5月19號當時您也提出到說當時您是司長您是說可以改成八分之一那這個八分之一的依據又是什麼呢八分之一是當時在11年討論的時候因為委員"},{"start":97.381,"end":113.783,"text":"立法院有討論那時候也是沒有院版所以那時候我們有跟大學有做了一些溝通那大學下長的希望是說確實十分之一已經做了將近15年了那如果有機會用漸進的方式先提到八分之一來做討論"},{"start":115.765,"end":139.96,"text":"大学的期待是这样子好 我了解那我想再请教一下就是说其实我在教育部的人权教育资源网看到有一篇讨论校务会议学生代表比例的文章它里面就有讲到十分之一是否是一个适当的比例它认为关键不在此而是在于各校关于校务会议提出临时动议的比例是否高过此一比例"},{"start":140.62,"end":160.478,"text":"因為既然學生代表參與了會議可是不應該只能出席卻毫無作為否則只能出席對所有提案都只能乾瞪眼的話那根本就沒有參與的意義所以我找了一下每個學校的一個版本那你也可以看到就是說大家的規範跟差異都相當的大那我想當初"},{"start":162.859,"end":190.189,"text":"這個大學法給予的十分之一那又設了這些限制之後就很然讓學生覺得說你根本其實沒有要給我實質的討論的權利所以現在學生就會希望說我們是不是可以把這樣子的比例提到五分之一那他們這樣一旦擁有了20%的席次的話他們就比較容易擁有臨時動議的提案權來阻止一些不合理的規則那我不曉得說現在次長你們的想法是什麼是"},{"start":191.289,"end":210.516,"text":"这点我在跟同学们座谈的时候同学也提到其实比较是一个独立的提案权就是可以由学生来独立提案那这一块以部里面的评估应该是我们可以来协助学生积极跟大学来沟通所以我现在是以这个方向在跟大学沟通说让同学是不是有独立的提案权"},{"start":211.016,"end":228.48,"text":"确实不然现在从三人五人八人到十分之一都有没错对好所以我想要这里面就有两个问题就是说学生的席次跟他们能不能够进入实质讨论的部分那刚刚听起来都有已经在讨论那我也有听到前面也有说到好像一月底的时候吧"},{"start":231.021,"end":248.385,"text":"22232223两天都有全国校长的会议好那我希望这个部分也要带回去跟校长们讨论因为我们之前自己也有询问一些校长他们也有提到一个重点就是说他们为什么觉得这个学生的想法有点至爱难行因为实务上很难找到这么多的学生"},{"start":249.085,"end":274.403,"text":"这是他们的一个想法但我想这个部分还要涉及到学生有提到就是他们开会总是在那种什么期中考期末考其实就实质上增加了他们参与的障碍所以我想这些问题也希望都要在这个会议上面一并的来讨论因为我想校园自治还有这个让学生有更多的公共参与的练习都是非常重要的是"},{"start":275.063,"end":299.791,"text":"好那再來第二個問題就是有關於校長遴選的部分因為現在有特別學生擔心的就合併的時候他們根本沒有意見機會校長的部分他們基本上很難去表達他們的意見因為校長又關係到了整個學校治理的一個方向那不曉得說是不是可以加入我們的學生跟教師的代表不曉得教育部的想法是什麼是謝謝委員我想以公立我想分公司力來談"},{"start":301.051,"end":328.25,"text":"以公立大学的校长临选来讲目前45个公校里面已经有29个学校是已经有把学生代表纳进去了那部里面我们也期待说我们透过我们现在的一些政策工具来让更多学校能够加入因为我还是要强调校长是临选临选重视的是有代表性跟多元性那学生跟老师能够参与到校长临选这是很重要的一个表征"},{"start":328.67,"end":354.484,"text":"所以这是教育部努力的目标所以公立大学已经有29校在有实施学生代表那这块我们会持续的用一些政客工具来引导私立学校的部分会比较保留一点是因为目前私立学校有董事会但是以教育部的立场来讲我们也是希望私下的临选更应该要有公共性的话更应该有多元跟代表所以这块也是我们努力跟私下沟通的"},{"start":354.724,"end":381.467,"text":"好 因為這樣聽起來就是說教育部有一些想法因為畢竟從上個會期到現在應該要有充分的一些討論了那我想1月22號就要開會了是不是可以把當天的議程可以提供到我們辦公室這個部分因為是議程是由協進會在處理我想會用我們把他們目前有一些討論的草稿或放一下先提供給委員對 但是我覺得教育部還是要有一個想法提供因為畢竟是討論嘛所以我覺得這些想法應該都要放進去"},{"start":381.887,"end":407.013,"text":"那再来就是说我想要提到一个比较严重的问题就是我们人才培育政策的结构性失衡现在虽然大家都在讲AI所以我们很多的政策的导向其实都是会往这个方向往科技领域所以就会造成从这张表上面我们可以看到我们的社科的学生其实人数是在下降的那特别是说我们可以看到这个商业级管理学们的人数是降到了28%"},{"start":408.533,"end":433.315,"text":"那我自己会认为这是一个很大的问题在于说因为其实我之前有去年前年吧我去采访了一个我去拜访了一个哈佛大学那他也是AI人工智慧学校的校长那他也是中研院的院士孔院士有提到一个很重要的关键就是说科技AI持续发展因为他也是这个领域的可是他觉得人文社会的学科是可以引领科技依然保有人文的关怀所以"},{"start":434.136,"end":453.999,"text":"而且他會建構一個更明確的方向不會只有從技術的方向所以可是我們現在整體的政策上面從我們的這個審計部的報告可以看到我們雖然宣稱要推動跨領域人才但是跨領域人才往往是變成人文附屬人文附屬於科技"},{"start":456.466,"end":477.981,"text":"人文附属于科技而不是平等的整合例如我们会要求人文社会学生补修城市设计可是我们很少要求工程跟资工的学生在制度性里面要补强公共议题跟伦理社会分析的部分所以这样子的跨领域其实是双向的吗还是它根本就是一个单向的那是否可以检讨我们现在的跨域政策呢"},{"start":478.681,"end":494.415,"text":"是 跟委員報告其實我剛剛在回答葛國勇委有提到我們現在是要教學生能夠應用AI工具能夠用AI工具去解決問題能夠負責任的去使用AI最後有一個其實就是人文社會可以著力的點"},{"start":494.935,"end":516.358,"text":"我们怎么去发现AI做不到的那我相信我们如果要找出新的创新AI做不到的就是在人文社会科技科学领域最有机会所以现在来讲大概分两个城市来讲我们在做的台卡人工智慧大联盟里面我们就是以跨域的方式有提供应用课程跟技术课程给不同对象的"},{"start":517.199,"end":540.142,"text":"同學來做跨域工程跟施工的學生也有被邀通識 那個會通識多少教育部我們有四年的通識計畫這四年通識計畫裡面怎麼針對科技領域的學生讓他具備有人文的思維然後能夠在未來的AI的運他在做一些開發的時候能夠把這樣的思維融進去這也是台灣未來的一個很重要的工作那這個事實也是我們在處理的"},{"start":540.442,"end":566.865,"text":"我想因为时间到了我简单再陈述一下重点因为这件事情不是只有孔院士提到包含去年9月亲子天下他们采访了不管是MIT或者是芬兰各个全世界很多在发展AI领域基本上是很强的专家学者他们都提到了这个概念就是如何在人文思维人文素养里面倒进去才能够去确保我们的科技发展不会走歪"},{"start":567.586,"end":591.821,"text":"特别是说在现在的很多的AI的应用上面其实会大部分使用的其实是儿童儿少就开始使用所以如果我们今天一旦没有掌控这个风险的话就会造成后续可能儿少的这个睡觉力受损所以我有个最后的要求就是说我们是不是可以针对人文社会语文商馆等学们的结构萎缩提出一个风险性的评估第二个我们是不是可以在未来招生跟补助与计划中设路"},{"start":592.481,"end":609.693,"text":"纳入学门结构平衡作为政策目标而不是只有产业需求所以是不是可以提供这两个的改善方案给我们好没问题那大概多久可以提供呢如果既然已经现在有现在是我们可以把一个月整理一下提供给我们可以一个月以内好吗谢谢好谢谢"}]}},{"id":"166990","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166990","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f543708ae16714c073f7067a41bab2fb0fea1d89202e029a9f20686bf1ce6383841d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:01:57 - 11:14:12","影片長度":"00:12:15","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員李坤城等 19 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請中副部長那我也請法務部檢察司張司長請司長今天兩個主題一個我們來探討司法主權一個部分來講防範滲透就是今天的修法好 下一頁"},{"start":25.801,"end":47.296,"text":"當然就順著這個昨天被公布的所謂的台獨打手或者是台獨頑固分子中國要展現他的長臂管轄他的跨境鎮壓就是無所不用其極從行政官員到立法委員我本人我也是被國台辦公布的台獨打手幫兇"},{"start":48.757,"end":77.482,"text":"我還沒有晉級啦我還沒有從台獨打手幫兇成功晉級為台獨頑固分子我還會持續努力被中國這樣子的一個鎖定我想就是我們做對了很多事我們捍衛國家的主權我會持續努力喔但是對於我們的司法人員來進行這樣子的一個作為之前已經有三加一三位檢察官包括偵辦柯文哲案的檢察官"},{"start":77.782,"end":88.944,"text":"也被列為台獨大手而昨天是針對我們的這個陳淑儀檢察官所以我要就教於法務部我非常肯定部長昨天第一時間他所說的"},{"start":90.479,"end":114.19,"text":"這個我們絕對要捍衛我們司法從業從事人員的權益然後國家的司法主權是不容強害的我想部長講到了重點我非常同意您剛講的我們要保護強化保護我們的司法人員第二個也要給他們很強的一個教育"},{"start":115.407,"end":136.225,"text":"我們依國家的法治來進行任何司法的宣判基於證據基於專業這都是受到國家的保護跟社會的支持的但是呢中國這種要傷及司法主權這就有它政治的意圖喔那我來看下一頁"},{"start":137.441,"end":167.141,"text":"我也非常詫異某位蔡正元先生因為三中案正式的宣判即將要入獄服刑昨天鄭麗文國民黨的黨主席特別刻意的頒發實踐一等獎章我覺得很訝異國民黨要成為違法黨國民黨是在鼓勵犯罪嗎包括傅坤祺總召也說要大賣就要背幾條犯罪的案子"},{"start":168.522,"end":177.231,"text":"這種言論這種作為是不是也都在挑戰我們的司法來市長"},{"start":178.901,"end":197.872,"text":"跟委員報告那檢察官針對這個有任何犯罪嫌疑的這個行為我們都會據以偵辦那對於這個經過司法判決的這個確定案件呢那該執行的我們就會依法執行很好所以我們要支持檢察官因為法務部主管我們的檢查系統"},{"start":199.233,"end":224.391,"text":"依法執行證據跟專業是他們最強的偵辦的支持跟後盾所以司法的公信力要被摧毀要被削弱甚至長臂管轄來危及台灣的司法主權跟在野黨聯手要削弱國人對於司法的正當性其實我認為這是一套劇本"},{"start":225.271,"end":238.264,"text":"我們就要看得清楚 理個明白但是我們持續做對的事 下一頁但是在國軍也是一樣 副部長我們也曾經有兩批被國台辦所發布的"},{"start":239.457,"end":261.038,"text":"罪名是網路攻擊滲透有20名我們的這個資通電軍的成員另外一批呢是去年10月罪名是謀劃分裂國家18名台灣的新戰大隊我們的國軍啊剛剛從司法官司法人員到國軍也受到中國這樣的跨境鎮壓"},{"start":263.977,"end":287.47,"text":"還沒進入今天的主題之前就讓我們看到一件事情中國的滲透是非常的具體一點都不抽象對不對剛剛在野黨委員一直在說對敵效忠好抽象喔那我倒要問這些敵方境外敵對勢力對我國司法人員的長臂管轄對我國國軍人員來"},{"start":291.071,"end":305.031,"text":"進行他的職務忠誠為國家做他該做的事情要被這樣殺雞儆猴敵人的意圖再明確也不過了一點都不抽象不是嗎"},{"start":306.232,"end":324.335,"text":"所以我們今天的法律的規定規範修法的方向不是再明確也不過的事嗎 背景就在這裡嗎副部長我們對於這些星戰大隊跟資通電軍的成員們我們是不是也如同司法部門一樣給予必要的保護 必要的教育"},{"start":325.049,"end":354.108,"text":"目前已經有採取必要的措施好那下一頁所以我再次用這個表格來告訴大家共諜的滲透軍人軍方佔五成以上的比例所以再具體也不過了一點都不抽象就是今天我們為什麼要啟動修法再具體也不過了當敵人的意圖這麼的清晰為什麼有在野黨的委員持續要來做這些非常模糊的操作"},{"start":354.989,"end":366.989,"text":"我們都看得非常清楚下一頁過去司法院釋字430號很具體的說軍人與國家有公法上的職務關係負有高度的忠誠義務這沒有問題"},{"start":368.979,"end":394.998,"text":"如果簽署校中書拍攝影片承諾在暫時為祖國效力就已經構成了違背職務的行為剛剛在黨委員一直說司法院今天的意見寫得很好他們今天突然從反對司法院鬥臭司法到今天鬥臭司法院寫得好棒棒那我也請這些藍白的委員看看大法官已經解釋了如果為敵來進行這些事情是不是就是違背職務嗎"},{"start":396.559,"end":416.43,"text":"所以我提供大法官的解釋給國防部也可以做論述的參考而第二 貪污治罪條例的違背職務收賄罪是現在檢察官僅能夠拿來偵辦的一個法條這跟對敵效忠黑就是天地差很大嘛"},{"start":417.307,"end":432.043,"text":"所以因為現有的法規的不足以及大法官的解釋已經清楚的講了軍人跟國家公法上的職務關係具有高度的忠誠義務都驗證了我們今天的修法是沒有問題的勇敢去做下一頁"},{"start":433.493,"end":457.696,"text":"案例在這裡喔2019年有這個陸軍部部訓部上校向德恩遭中國吸收2019年開始收賄簽署投降承諾書所以只能夠用貪污治罪條例判對不對這就是今天我們為什麼要修法因為沒有對稱的法條在陸海控軍刑法裡頭簽頁"},{"start":460.185,"end":480.94,"text":"副部長收賄然後簽署投降承諾書是不是再具體也不過了是不是就是對敵投降效忠對不對所以這哪裡抽象他有清楚的行動啊有清楚的言語啊有清楚的表示啊哪裡抽象在下一個"},{"start":481.781,"end":499.036,"text":"案例在這裡2021年又有這麼多位向敵人表示疏成而且是具體拍星戰的投降影片的這位陸俊芳跟吳志朋他們再具體也不過了對不對拍星戰影片為匪宣傳哪裡抽象"},{"start":501.738,"end":511.531,"text":"但是這些人檢察官也只能夠用貪污治罪條例去辦他很奇怪下一頁所以說今天的修法只有一條只有一條"},{"start":513.257,"end":535.725,"text":"我不曉得這個會期萬事再爭議的法案再大的新立法都可以敬附二讀不討論不議而決現在為了陸海空軍洗髮一條要要求召開好多場公聽會藍白委員實在是很雙標只有一個條文如果藍白委員對於這個修法"},{"start":536.585,"end":564.904,"text":"新增一項單條新增一項有任何的意見歡迎提對案有任何的意見提出你具體的主張而不是擋著不休這是我的看法所以說提高不盡其責降抵者的刑責要提高增定不盡其責降抵者之欲被犯之處處罰我支持還有要增定最後一項對敵人效忠之表示罪這個表示再清楚也不過了法律只能夠定原則規範"},{"start":566.585,"end":588.151,"text":"具體的內容還是要交給我們的執法人員檢察官法官在偵辦的時候去認定他的行為法律不可能寫到很細剛剛委員說的我按了一個讚唱了一首歌手機放了一個解放軍美女的照片會不會就是對狄孝中就會被判不會嘛你們講的很清楚嘛"},{"start":589.522,"end":600.57,"text":"我倒是要想到過去唱了什麼歌講了什麼話會被抓去判刑的就是過去在台灣長期一黨執政的中國國民黨"},{"start":601.86,"end":629.375,"text":"白色恐怖就是這樣臭瓜抓起來臭瓜有勁哥不可以講台語那種白色恐怖倒是過去國民黨委員他們要去檢討這是國民黨的專善所以最後司法院的專業意見我非常尊重但我也希望在野黨的委員今天突然一夕之間把司法院捧得你好棒棒那麼拜託不要再來推翻憲法法庭"},{"start":630.799,"end":640.344,"text":"的憲法解釋吧不要再來什麼搞對五位大法官的提告吧一夕之間為了阻擋你們不敢得罪中國的修法"},{"start":641.943,"end":670.742,"text":"然後拿司法院的這些解釋司法院的解釋也沒有錯誤啊他提醒了立法院在審查的時候要去更細緻的去做很多的思考但司法院沒有推翻這個修法不應當進行討論不是嗎所以今天突然把司法院捧得這麼高的委員那也謝謝你們終於肯定司法院的法律專業所以最終喔我想司法的主權不容強害我們的國軍"},{"start":673.222,"end":690.589,"text":"對國家忠誠的義務也不能夠有任何的退讓這個條文我認為非常具體毫不抽象而且法律就是規範原則性如果內容這些到底有哪些東西修法時候歡迎在一檔委員提出你的版本來討論"},{"start":691.689,"end":708.418,"text":"來具體討論而不是把抽象拿作一個阻卻修法的理由而至於如果任何的軍人違反了這些條例的內容那就交給司法人員去就事時去釐清不是靠法律文字就要把細節都定得很清楚"},{"start":709.418,"end":732.784,"text":"這是我們立法者的基本ABC啊所以我支持我們的教委我們就照程序走然後絕對會讓在野黨的委員充分表達意見只有一個條文 只有一個條文比起在野黨禁覆二讀一整部新的立法都可以不一而決可以讓在野黨的委員好好思考他們到底如何踐踏了台灣的國會民主辛苦大家 繼續加油 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166995","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166995","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f54354f4ef35c9cfaf94324c55f2e48b25a91d89202e029a9f202dc82480404c6b195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:16:05 - 11:27:13","影片長度":"00:11:08","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員陳秀寳等22人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「大學法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員柯志恩等21人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員翁曉玲等 16 人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員伍麗華Saidhai 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顧部長請"},{"start":6.98,"end":11.603,"text":"部長好 部長我們本席也有接獲我們的官兵的一個陳情這個也是反映我們在國防部的餐廳用餐我們現在所有包括國軍國防部或國軍司令部高司幕僚單位我們在洗碗或者是像這個使用過的餐具它是怎麼清洗的"},{"start":39.867,"end":45.291,"text":"報委員 陸軍參謀長向您報告目前單位 簡單說就好了有些單位有設置洗碗機但是大部分的單位目前還是由邊組的 簡單來說啦就是高屍單位 高屍幕僚單位 國防部其實我們都是用自動洗碗機可是我們在基層我們都還是用人工去洗滌可是因為大家都不是各自的現在有很多他也不認真洗有些在下次使用的時候他都還是有的"},{"start":68.846,"end":96.489,"text":"甚至拿起來他還可以用衛生紙擦出一層黑垢這是非常嚴重的問題因為現在大家也非常重視食安我們不管居住不管在營區的配置或者像我們在這用餐的環境我們希望不是只有高屍單位有這些改善我們編了很多很多的預算所以這個也不是很貴如果我們的高層都可以用我們希望可以普及到我們所有的基層單位這個部分可不可以做到"},{"start":98.936,"end":122.925,"text":"我們會來檢討努力好這個部分因為我想這個是現代化的一個作為啦別人有的很認真洗有的不認真那你現在這樣可能也會造成一些食安的疑慮大家也覺得我們我們的國軍其實是不太進步的啦所以乾淨衛生的用場環境我想這是最基本的條件這個部分請我們國防部盡速改善好不好"},{"start":123.325,"end":128.287,"text":"那另外今天大家也非常關切的就是我們F16這個出事的這個問題那我想要請教的因為我們不希望在事故發生以後大家拿這個"},{"start":140.734,"end":153.742,"text":"來作為我們的預算是不是要審查的一個條件因為我們這一次總預算沒有審查還沒有還沒有付為很重要的因素我想大家都非常清楚第一個就是我們軍人的"},{"start":155.923,"end":176.152,"text":"志願役加薪這個沒有編列進去第二個當然就是警消的這個所得替代率我們希望依法已經通過的可以盡速把它編列我們看到每一次的事故不管是潛艦上一次在海上發生的事故也責損了很多位我們的國軍官兵我們在這一次F16"},{"start":177.372,"end":182.215,"text":"的這樣子的一個優秀的軍官然後我們之前在永英號更之前還有F51每一次每一次發生事件以後都說要檢討可是我們每次檢討很多的東西太樣其實是一樣的這跟預算已經沒有關係因為你們錢花了裝備也買了可是你們並沒有確切的改善而且甚至都沒有到貨這個拿來跟現在總預算還沒有過這是無法類比而且是非常可惡的"},{"start":207.088,"end":219.711,"text":"所以就這個部分 我想要請教 因為剛剛也有提到因為F16AB這個案子 這個升息案很重要的 我們其實從101年開始 建案到現在101年 我們本來它的期程是101到112這過程當中修了兩次的期程 把它延到117年"},{"start":231.414,"end":234.117,"text":"我們的預算也從1100億增加到1400多億這些我們都沒有去做預算的相關的刪減可是我們看到現在陸續還在發生這樣的事情而且像F16當時美方也承諾要透過軍售的合作機制要引進技術跟資源"},{"start":254.216,"end":258.358,"text":"包括建立F16維修中心推動國內維修的能量縮短零件交期提升妥善率等等我們為了要達到這樣的目標我們甚至也用掉了我們所有的公和點數除了我們編了這麼高額的預算以外我們也用掉我們的公和點數可是我們看到這一次發生的問題除了防寒衣除了我們在任務電腦"},{"start":281.331,"end":286.857,"text":"或者像防撞地系統這些都還沒有安裝甚至發生錯誤或者發生狀況的情況之下我們到底有了什麼那時候還特別用了一個典禮"},{"start":297.328,"end":313.523,"text":"在蔡總統的時候我們還說我們要成立亞太維修中心後來亞太拿掉了我們要成立維修中心因為我們除了原來F16AB還有141架現在可能140架可能又要再降低"},{"start":314.756,"end":320.039,"text":"還有新買的66架我們可能是世界上最多F16機型的國家可是我們到現在我們反觀韓國他都已經可以製造了我們現在連維修看到這一次包括他的任務電腦不斷出狀況的情況之下顯然我們對這些維修的能力都還沒有做到已經十幾年了"},{"start":338.228,"end":339.29,"text":"我們風風光光的拍照成立然後現在這些問題到底在哪裡因為剛剛提到的防撞地系統或什麼其他"},{"start":350,"end":373.439,"text":"參謀長在這裡我想你非常清楚我們所有的像這樣的一個飛機尤其任務電腦其實是非常重要的它像這一型飛機它當初設計的時候就是不平衡希望讓它更加靈活所以如果沒有飛控電腦飛機就很容易轉圈圈像它飛行員在操作的時候它就會如果它有點"},{"start":374.6,"end":375.882,"text":"也類似防撞系統吧如果這個一旦任務電腦他判斷飛行員的操作他就會影響所有的飛機安全比如說在內的話內在的部分他可能會"},{"start":390.205,"end":405.68,"text":"就是它的操作極限在外在比如說撞山或撞地這些非控電腦其實它都可以去做判斷如果發現內外發生這樣的問題的時候它甚至可以把它接手操作對不對可是我們一直發現它不斷的出問題我們為什麼到現在沒有辦法解決這個問題是美方或是漢翔"},{"start":414.096,"end":430.15,"text":"或者什麼其他問題跟委員報告自動防撞地系統Auto G-Case這個它是我們F-16 Block兩棟它是類比式的飛控系統那剛剛也講了美軍現在有在用的是就是數位的飛超系統"},{"start":430.871,"end":454.983,"text":"我們的Block兩棟是類比式所以說它沒辦法採用美軍這個系統也是因為我們提出來美軍才開始研發我們現在才跟美軍是同步把類比式的飛機安裝Auto G-Case它的訊號轉換成數位才能使用Auto G-Case美國國民兵的Block兩棟兩武跟三棟跟我們是同步正在做"},{"start":455.683,"end":483.271,"text":"我們從108年也是感謝大院給我們的預算之後我們才納到鳳展的專案的工項裡面那做了這麼久109年跟美方提出來美方也同步在做研發到現在美軍的類比式跟我們一樣類比式飛超的飛機一架都還沒有上機所以說外界可能是誤會了所有的飛機不是都是類比式的飛機數位的飛機可以安裝我們的Block拐動很快回來它就有"},{"start":484.031,"end":489.773,"text":"安裝這個 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是不是"},{"start":266.368,"end":292.285,"text":"就是說以向德恩這個案例為例他就向中共簽寫了一個投降誓約書或是有其他案例他拍影片宣誓效忠那應該你就把它明確化因為我們剛剛說的其他方式這個部分我們認為是不合理的我再請教好了今天近期解放軍對台軍演海巡署被質疑解放軍還沒有離台"},{"start":294.046,"end":312.339,"text":"離台海之前就去參會為例這個海巡署是軍方的單位我們通常都稱它為第二海軍它甚至由平轉戰是隨時都要準備的那有決策者認為在12月30號解放軍的軍艦海警艇已經離開近線制水域就像我們簡報幼圖裡面所顯示的"},{"start":314.881,"end":319.442,"text":"可是在國防部所以他認為在12月31號中午辦理這個參會把相關單位的主管管把他帶離部隊跟住所這是可以的可是如果我們看到國防部他的報告在他的陳述就簡報左圖依據國防部掌握的訊息12月31號除了原來的14艘共艦以外他又增加了3艘"},{"start":344.128,"end":363.909,"text":"由西太平洋駛入我東部應變區總共有共建17艘跟海警船8艘與我應變區內活動如該決策者是否符合修訂條文所述為不盡其應盡之責而想抵制預備或因謀犯"},{"start":367.185,"end":382.283,"text":"這算不算因為如果在我們這麼重要面對在共軍在演訓的時候我們把主觀館本來應該要在第一線崗位上面的全部都帶去聚餐這樣子算不算"},{"start":383.328,"end":389.472,"text":"要跟委員做一個說明委員這樣的這個假設前提我比較不大理解這不是假設它已經發生過了可是當你們要訂的時候是跟委員報告一下因為你請看清楚我剛剛提到的我左右兩邊海巡說中國的海警船軍艦已經離開我方近線制水域可是國防部這一方面的訊息會更清楚他在12月31號甚至都還有更多的共艦"},{"start":411.667,"end":439.694,"text":"在我們的周邊還在做這樣子的一個演訓所以就這個部分它算不算是為不盡其應盡之責是跟委員說明一下在右邊的話中國海警船軍艦離開我方進限制水域這進限制水域應該只是金馬那個進限制水域那我們左下方12月31號由西太平洋駛入我東部應變區它這跟進限制水域好像沒有什麼相關聯盟"},{"start":440.819,"end":465.43,"text":"就是他們還在啊所以你把他帶離開了你不是海巡的海巡的相關的任務不是只在禁限制水域他是號稱第二海軍他在很多的預算上面他也是提高很多都是要面臨這樣子的一個因應的狀況所以當你帶開的時候尤其是一級主管你可以去做指揮的所有人員都去聚餐算不算"},{"start":466.568,"end":481.864,"text":"跟委員報告一下委員講這個我沒辦法做評論因為海巡他們自己認你沒有辦法做評論你要修這樣的法之前你應該要很明確的讓大家知道不盡情因盡之責而降敵罪是你要有主觀的意思是要投降敵人"},{"start":483.302,"end":485.944,"text":"這一種的你們好意思在這裡講這樣子好意思這麼說當你有這樣的權責可是你拜乎職責你就是有想敵的打算了因為你明知道你不可以走如果是這樣那你是針對特定人嘛對不對你是針對特定人"},{"start":503.558,"end":505.199,"text":"我想要你不能去猜測當事人是怎麼樣的所以你今天這是你今天講的這句話可是你在這一條條文裡面為不盡其應盡之責這個可能就有降底的一個可能性今天如果有些你不盡你應該的責任消極不抵抗然後你主觀上要投降敵人啊"},{"start":526.803,"end":543.411,"text":"你本來就應該要在現場你應該要做這樣的指揮第一線的什麼叫投降他沒有他拍攝影片他也沒有他如果稱讚或再讓你歡笑他也不見得投降敵人可是你認定有就是有"},{"start":543.851,"end":546.715,"text":"今天我們特別舉出這樣的例子不是你幫某些人去做這樣的解釋因為我們看到了法條我們有這樣的疑慮你有可能這樣的發生的時候今天如果某些人你看不順眼你可能會覺得他就是有想解的可能"},{"start":559.213,"end":568.117,"text":"當有某些人你覺得他可能不是那你就說他可能沒有想體的可能這對我們來說法條其實最重要的精神就是他的原質他的我們修訂這樣的法律的一個旨意其實很重要的要達到他的效果而不是任由所有的人去做這樣片面的解釋我們現在已經對司法很多沒有信心是因為有很多的案例已經讓大家覺得就是因人設事因人而為"},{"start":588.626,"end":589.707,"text":"這個部分我們還是希望可以有比較妥善的一個說明而不是你去幫當事人做心理的一個解釋謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166988","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166988","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f54315573af57e7b26e5067a41bab2fb0fea1d89202e029a9f209be7746c6163105b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:54:04 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人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T10:54:04+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T11:01:38+08:00","duration":454,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.00909375,"end":6.105968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.844093750000001,"end":10.122218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.067218750000002,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.902218750000003,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.80034375,"end":20.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.78721875,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.558468750000003,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.55409375,"end":43.838468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.58784375,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":50.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.36471875,"end":54.790343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.34721875,"end":56.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.69284375,"end":59.532218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.190343750000004,"end":60.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.08471875,"end":61.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.063468750000006,"end":65.70846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.46784375,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.85534375,"end":77.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.63471875,"end":80.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.96346875,"end":83.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.42284375,"end":87.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.28721875000001,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.55971875,"end":104.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.12846875000001,"end":109.09409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.24596875,"end":116.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.02534375,"end":122.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.02409375,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.33096875,"end":134.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.04784375,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.04346875000002,"end":147.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.93221875,"end":150.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.29846875,"end":153.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.79596875000001,"end":154.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.16284375,"end":156.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.86721875,"end":165.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.30471875,"end":175.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.51409375,"end":182.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.52971875,"end":185.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.12846875000002,"end":186.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.14534375000002,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.29159375,"end":200.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.40034375000002,"end":201.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.61534375000002,"end":208.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.75784375,"end":211.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.25096875000003,"end":212.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.33096875,"end":213.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.97221875000002,"end":215.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.72721875000002,"end":219.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.46909375,"end":222.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.39284375000003,"end":226.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.67909375000002,"end":278.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.92409375,"end":311.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.71221875000003,"end":319.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.76159375000003,"end":325.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.60034375000004,"end":328.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.35096875000005,"end":330.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.97096875,"end":331.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.11846875000003,"end":334.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.18596875000003,"end":331.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.71721875000003,"end":340.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.94471875000005,"end":336.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.78784375000004,"end":342.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.50909375000003,"end":343.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.63534375,"end":345.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.33971875000003,"end":371.98971875},{"speake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對不對謝謝我們副部長很誠實含義甚廣也就是說它其實處在一個相當不確定的概念那為避免過度擴張可乏性範圍是依舊本條第五項所載點點點對敵人為效忠之表示者"},{"start":84.502,"end":109.92,"text":"增加士性犯要件例如補充框號...對敵人為效忠之表示足以生軍事上之不利益者他在本案嚴厲階段其實也曾經採用過這個文字那如果不足以生軍事上之不利益我先到這邊 來"},{"start":111.277,"end":122.537,"text":"您覺得司法院應該要加上一個適性犯要件就是要增加足以生軍事上之不利益者這點副部長的看法是什麼"},{"start":125.066,"end":152.913,"text":"因為按照憲法跟國安法的規定現役軍人對國家效忠的義務有明文的規定那考量整個現役軍人如果對這個敵人效忠的表示沒有加以刑責的這個嚴禁的話會使部隊的機率跟軍事安全會有嚴重的一個損害我告訴你我跟副部長講你的考慮司法院這次真的很周延他也把他放進去講啦他說啊"},{"start":155.259,"end":182.378,"text":"如果不足以伸军事上之不利益他不是说不足以伸军事上之不利益就没有处罚的可能性他可以用陆海空军惩罚法锁定情务上或情务外违纪行为加以规范即可此等层级化处理依较符合比例原则以及刑法之最后手段性"},{"start":183.858,"end":211.49,"text":"來 請教部長你覺得呢因為懲罰法跟刑法是兩個不一樣的一個形態我剛剛有跟委員做說明就是現役軍人他的職務有特殊性那針對敵人對於效忠的言論以刑法來限制這一個判斷的標準會是個人個案的情節來做認定所以以刑法來限制的話他基本上是"},{"start":212.349,"end":226.05,"text":"合理的我先跟副部長說基本上我覺得司法院的思考算是相當周延第一個剛剛你也承認效忠之表示含義甚廣剛剛你也認同"},{"start":226.772,"end":248.267,"text":"他正是因為效忠之表示含義甚廣所以後面要加一個所謂的適性犯的要件免得這個含義過廣到時候可能會流淡傷及無辜所以才會加上要足以生軍事上之不利益其實這個邏輯很簡單如果沒有生軍事上之不利益"},{"start":249.568,"end":278.036,"text":"請問要上綱到刑法的意義何在但如果你說軍人就是不一樣我接受軍人不一樣你要有一個很高的準則來去看待軍人那也在司法院應屆當中說你們還是做得到啊也就在陸海空軍懲罰法所定的勤務外勤務上及勤務外違紀行為加以規範就可以所以我還是一句話啦這個事情我覺得大家出來討論很好但是"},{"start":279.056,"end":305.319,"text":"不需要今天在司法院的這樣的一個這麼清楚的一個所謂規範層級架構的司法邏輯上我覺得部裡面真的可以好好在審酌啦就說你今天到底要用什麼樣的法律要規範到什麼樣的強度我最後做一個簡單的一個東西剛剛我看到司長在回應光小英委員他舉了幾個行為太陽啊 暗戰啊或是唱個什麼歌啊 或是做個什麼事情啊或者說今天去誇"},{"start":306.119,"end":325.472,"text":"中国大陆某些东西建设的好像很不错诸如此类点点点那你刚刚意思是说这样子不足以构成你的修法后的这个所谓的陆海空军刑法的这所违法的一个状态对不对你刚意思是说不会违反吗"},{"start":325.692,"end":345.315,"text":"是 如果這很明確的是這樣的話是不會進入到我們這次修法的條文當中可是問題就來了那我剛跟委員抱一下因為委員剛才所講司法院我先問問題 我時間到了我先問問題你剛講的回答我先停在一個地方我就問司長一個問題嘛你是檢察官嗎你是法官嗎你不是嘛"},{"start":346.417,"end":371.644,"text":"所以換言之你並不能在個案上當中你的保證是沒有任何的所謂的實質的意義的啦因為你只是一個法律解釋的一個面向而已這是為什麼今天司法院他今天要跟大家講說你這效忠的表示含義過廣我說真的今天我也可以認為說按個讚就是效忠啊為什麼不能這樣認定呢其實效忠還是有定義啦不是我跟你講"},{"start":374.206,"end":376.051,"text":"欸 不對喔我跟你講 效忠效忠的定義是看誰定義啊"},{"start":381.007,"end":402.239,"text":"我跟委員報告 其實我們主要是效忠敵人嘛還是回頭問你一句話嘛我不是說 只要效忠就好啊不是 你效忠的定義過廣所以才用所謂的適性犯要件加以所謂局限它的效果嘛是 跟委員報告加適性犯這個選擇問題 跟我委員報告一下就是說 這個我們國防部不是說不能討論謝謝啊 可以討論啊對 可以討論 那因為"},{"start":404.62,"end":424.698,"text":"那因為我們待會兒完之後會有進入竹條的時候我們可以再好好的討論一下看我原來指導這樣子好很好啦我覺得這樣態度就很好啦基本上不要說是鐵板一塊說真的我剛剛跟我剛剛跟市長跟我們的副部長講我上面所說的所有一切還不是我的主張喔誰的主張"},{"start":426.155,"end":449.996,"text":"副長誰主張 司長誰主張司法院的建議對嘛 所以因此我回頭講這還是其中一條它裡面關於所謂的陰謀犯部分我覺得它也寫得很好但因為時間有限所以我也不佔用大家時間希望這件事我剛也認同我們汪小林委員講的就是主席如果可以的話能不能就多開幾場公聽會那聽聽大家意見民進黨最喜歡開公聽會就讓大家開公聽會討論以上 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委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員鄭正鈐等20人擬具「人工生殖法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三（三）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】【不詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T09:46:57+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T09:55:01+08:00","duration":484,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":6.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.101593750000001,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.67846875,"end":21.715343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.57596875,"end":34.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.43471875,"end":48.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.74909375,"end":54.250343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.75659375,"end":56.174093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.815343750000004,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.75034375,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.54096875,"end":87.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.86534375000001,"end":98.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.73284375,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.82596875,"end":127.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.14596875,"end":131.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.50409375,"end":151.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.28159375,"end":158.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.60096875000002,"end":161.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.40221875,"end":164.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.47346875000002,"end":170.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.93659375000001,"end":179.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.32784375,"end":183.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.52971875,"end":186.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.83721875,"end":188.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.23346875000001,"end":191.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.69721875000002,"end":196.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.58659375000002,"end":204.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.43784375,"end":210.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.74471875,"end":221.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.54471875000002,"end":225.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.46409375000002,"end":233.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.07034375,"end":236.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.63534375,"end":238.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.08221875,"end":244.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.89971875,"end":247.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.73909375000002,"end":252.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.44284375,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.76284375,"end":265.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.72784375000003,"end":271.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.08971875000003,"end":280.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.81409375000004,"end":284.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.10034375000004,"end":293.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.74034375,"end":312.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.14659375,"end":316.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.50471875,"end":321.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.57971875000004,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.56659375000004,"end":330.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.06784375,"end":347.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.01034375,"end":358.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.65409375,"end":361.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.52284375000005,"end":364.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.46346875,"end":367.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.81284375,"end":372.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.00221875,"end":375.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.71909375,"end":384.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.57846875,"end":387.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.74659375000005,"end":390.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.72096875,"end":397.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.92659375000005,"end":419.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.13409375000003,"end":427.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.01471875000004,"end":431.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.45284375000006,"end":433.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.98846875000004,"end":436.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.27909375,"end":440.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.44721875000005,"end":442.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.20221875000004,"end":454.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.23409375000006,"end":458.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.18284375,"end":459.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.60034375000004,"end":4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公聽會裡面的資訊那我自己的服務處跟我自己的辦公室在這段時間以來我是每天都收到民眾來拜託我們在立法院裡面一定要堅決的反對代理孕母倉促通過修法"},{"start":113.03,"end":127.262,"text":"我每天都收到民眾的委託所以雖然我不是外韓委員會人工生殖法的修法我自己有提案的版本事實上這一個也是我自己去年在競選立委的時候我寫在選舉公報上面的證件"},{"start":128.223,"end":150.288,"text":"所以人工升職我們非常的關切但是我們更加的擔憂代理育母在還有這麼多的疑慮之前公聽會上專家會議上面都有很多專家提出來的疑慮到今天都還沒有被回答沒有被解釋在今天主張要代理育母合法化的委員你們的提案版本裡面"},{"start":151.448,"end":170.168,"text":"草草的九條也完全沒有辦法去處理它在法律上面的疑慮在倫理上面的疑慮的時候要進入逐條討論嗎這是違反民主的我們之前看了這麼多的公聽會這些疑慮並沒有被回答我再次的請問"},{"start":172.437,"end":196.075,"text":"在現在提案版本國民黨民眾黨的委員提案版本裡面有關代理孕母的第二條請問代孕子女就是被生下來這個孩子他在法律上面的定義是什麼你們都沒有寫耶法律上面定義什麼你都沒有寫那未來這個親權親子關係發生法律異議的時候誰來負責"},{"start":197.642,"end":207.778,"text":"你為這個孩子負責嗎你為這個家庭負責嗎這是立法委員可以做這麼不負責任的事情嗎然後呢有關於倫理權利上面的爭議你們寫的裡面18條之4"},{"start":211.786,"end":235.516,"text":"就是呢如果這個代孕者他在同一週期他有失敗他有沒有終止代孕的權利他有沒有終止代孕的權利好現在說有可是呢這個如果是委託的委託人家去代孕的夫妻他還是可以依照民法的規定裡面去跟這個代孕者而且應該是代孕母什麼叫代孕者是你們的工具嗎"},{"start":236.696,"end":256.086,"text":"他也是可以去請求損害賠償的所以到底你現在寫的法律裡面有沒有去保障待遇者的反悔權都沒有寫清楚耶那未來這個發生是在每一個家庭上面人家生命上面重大的問題可以這樣子不負責任的隨便寫立法嗎"},{"start":257.83,"end":274.705,"text":"所以我們剛剛一直在問的 你只有9條 代理育母可不可以討論可以討論 就我現在受到的民意我受到民意 多數的民意委託我們今天站在這裡一定要清楚的反對表明我們反對的立場可以討論 可是你不可以用滄滄的9條這麼多的問題 你連法條都不寫清楚就把它塞在我們今天要討論的人工生殖法的修法草案裡面"},{"start":285.354,"end":311.616,"text":"這樣子進入逐條討論並沒有辦法達到理性的討論因為所有的爭議沒有人有辦法回答所以我等一下還是希望能不能拜託主席可能希望衛福部再來說明一下因為衛福部在今天給我們出面報告裡面事實上衛福部已經清楚的表明了在之前這麼多次的專家會議裡面對於代理育母還有很多的爭議上代理清跟討論"},{"start":313.898,"end":321.391,"text":"這爭議太大這是衛福部的文字考量部分內容受爲爭議太大上代更多溝通"},{"start":322.645,"end":347.087,"text":"目前將優先處理有共識部分讓上有爭議之代理育母部分脫鉤處理函請立法院審議人工生殖法修法草案這是衛福部提給我們的建議但是我們今天手上的這個版本裡面還是有很多國民黨民眾黨委員提案版本裡面是有代理育母的啊"},{"start":348.106,"end":356.691,"text":"所以如果人家衛福部都清楚說了因為專家還有太多的這個爭議需要釐清了如果等一下我們就要去進入主條的話請問要怎麼討論難道要用舉手表決來去倉促的通過讓大女育母在台灣合法化嗎"},{"start":369.844,"end":387.286,"text":"我認為我們這樣沒有辦法向民眾交代民眾對我們提出這麼多的疑問現場無論立法委員無論官員都沒有辦法回答說明的時候就要讓這樣的草案匆匆的出了委員會我們每一個人都沒有辦法向台灣社會交代"},{"start":388.889,"end":405.016,"text":"所有人都要拜託主席請衛福部好好的說明在剛剛你們提到針對代理育母八成以上的專家都反對台灣社會還有這麼多的爭議沒有共識的情況之下如果立法院 衛福委員會就要進入逐條討論討論這個條文了"},{"start":407.057,"end":431.137,"text":"但我剛剛提到的第2條單孕子女法律定義是什麼當我們提出這個問題的時候沒有人可以回答的時候請問要怎麼逐條討論這個不叫理性討論這叫蒙著眼睛隨便討論然後我要再次的去指出立法委員還有一個重要責任就是要利益迴避剛剛陳金輝委員你沒有資格你也沒有辦法去代表全台灣"},{"start":432.526,"end":461.726,"text":"的婦產科醫師而台灣所有的婦產科醫師跟你不一樣的是他們不是立法委員當你本身是這個產業的醫師從業人員本身又是立法委員的時候你提出跟這個產業利益相關的法律就有為了利益迴避原則這是我們在這裡所請教的這是我們在這裡請教的請問提案立委不需要遵守利益迴避原則嗎"},{"start":463.547,"end":474.6,"text":"我們剛剛並沒有得到說明所以針對這兩個問題我要再次的拜託主席我希望衛福部可以給我們你們的意見 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請歡迎委員歡迎委員要程序完結的時候"}]}},{"id":"166968","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166968","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f543767ccaafd061a074bf20238130c06451e25119d80932fbaff22a5a2e4754ce135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:41:10 - 09:46:52","影片長度":"00:05:42","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「人工生殖法修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十四) 委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一) 委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員鄭正鈐等20人擬具「人工生殖法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 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謝謝趙委那這個因為今天這個其他委員會也蠻多案子的所以我簡短表述一下就可以因為這一個制度跟我這個親身的經歷有比較大的一個關係大家應該知道這個我的小孩是收養的那這個趙志偉委員其實也是那大家可以去試想一件事情就是呢當我們今天台灣有收養制度之後有沒有造成越來越多大家都一直要去收養"},{"start":29.338,"end":53.089,"text":"其實是沒有的為什麼呢就是因為台灣目前還是停留在非常非常傳統的這種所謂的血緣的概念所以很多人認為說自己的小孩必須要有血緣所以他們不太願意去走收養制度所以即使政府創造了這樣的一個制度然後把它完善化也很難讓這個收養在台灣變得普及這是台灣的現況"},{"start":54.349,"end":80.963,"text":"所以我們在講我們在西方世界就已經看到非常非常多代孕的缺點但這個代孕的缺點在台灣是會被放大為什麼就是因為重視血緣這件事大家要想一下剛剛我們講到很多代孕會有一些階級會有壓迫等等的問題但大家可以試想一件事情這個壓力絕對不是只有在弱勢女性而已它在一般的中產階級的女性照樣會出現問題為什麼"},{"start":83.084,"end":107.165,"text":"因為假設今天有一個女性她結婚之後結婚之後結果發現可能自己不容易生育或者她可能不想要生育因為她有她自己的身體自主權她可以停在那裡但如果這個代孕的制度創造之後大家可以去想像很多的公公跟婆婆會跟這個媳婦講什麼就簡單啊 你去代孕就好了你為什麼不走代孕呢"},{"start":108.038,"end":126.748,"text":"也就是說這個市場的需求會被放大而且這個放大並不是基於這位女性這一個媳婦的需求而是來自於這個台灣的傳統的觀念更多的老一輩的壓力會因為這個樣子施加在這一個已經結婚的女性的身上"},{"start":127.728,"end":154.018,"text":"這件事情是很容易被忽略的所以簡單來講我們光是要捍衛經濟的弱勢的女性不要進入這樣的一個產業已經講了那麼多都已經很多人都還聽不懂強勢要推這樣的一個制度但不要很多現在在看直播的觀眾你一定要再去想一下這一個制度的壓力絕對就不是只有在弱勢女性身上它會是在全體的女性的身上"},{"start":154.858,"end":183.426,"text":"所以如果今天呢作為一個結婚的一個女性結果因為社會傳統的壓力或者來自於她的公婆的壓力變成她被逼迫一定要去走這個代孕制度的時候請問該怎麼辦她要怎麼拒絕她要說我沒錢嗎我們的髮條還故意把它設計成不要進入到市場不是嗎所以如果按照這個樣子的話那個壓力會有多大那個需求會變得有多大這是一個很大的問題"},{"start":184.679,"end":209.314,"text":"所以拜託大家在這一邊一定要冷靜的思考我們在講女性的身體自主權自主權生與不生這都是自主權你今天的自主權是一種自由但這個自由不能夠建立在別人的博學之上這個自由不能夠去放大台灣的傳統壓力這個自由不能夠建立在父權制度之上"},{"start":210.094,"end":223.233,"text":"所以拜託大家要記得這一件事情今天不管今天是原本的這一個行政院的這一個版本他強調的是本人的身體自主就是有跟沒有他沒有壓力的外溢但代孕完全不同"},{"start":224.147,"end":244.902,"text":"代孕今天的制度的建立它所得壓力的外溢是極大的所以你會把兩個完全不同的制度放在同一個法裡面討論這個在說這個在法制上完全不合理嘛所以今天呢如果真的要討論因為我準備要程序發言講這個就是我建議應該還是以未婚跟"},{"start":245.723,"end":268.156,"text":"女同志這一個部分為優先這個部分比較有共識這個也沒有太大的一個壓力外溢的效應它的制度也不會造成我剛剛講的傳統概念的這個放大但是我們看到的我剛剛看到有些委員提到少子化台灣的少子化很大的一個原因在於婚姻的壓力這是中研院鄭彥新研究員做出來的研究非常著名的一個研究"},{"start":268.716,"end":276.351,"text":"那我們今天我剛剛講的那個代孕制度的推行請問會是增加那一個婚姻的壓力還是減低那個婚姻的壓力它是增加 它不是減低"},{"start":277.222,"end":300.624,"text":"所以這是完全不同的制度結果完全不同的制度要放在一起審的時候呢就很容易沒有共識那一旦沒有共識之後呢變成本來應該有共識的部分應該趕快推出去的沒有辦法推我們就會因為代孕這個制度去綁架我們剛剛講的重要的比如說我們真的針對女性的身體自主權的不管是未婚的不管是女同志的"},{"start":301.404,"end":316.385,"text":"所以在這邊我還是強烈的建議就是是否能夠把代孕脫鉤處理能夠把代孕不管是用專法或者說之後再討論先讓有共識的先行讓這個制度能夠趕快走下去"},{"start":316.866,"end":337.009,"text":"然後待遇呢 我覺得不只是要想一下而已西方的經驗已經告訴我們待遇有多少的問題絕對不要忘記在台灣所謂的這種傳統觀念之下待遇一旦被放大之後這個對台灣是一個完全沒有辦法再走回頭路的事好 那我簡單發言到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝沈委員接下來請吳佩奕委員"}]}},{"id":"166967","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166967","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f543161c7cd07df149e7bf20238130c06451e25119d80932fbaff22a5a2e4754ce135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:29:06 - 09:41:04","影片長度":"00:11:58","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「人工生殖法修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十四) 委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一) 委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員鄭正鈐等20人擬具「人工生殖法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三（三）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】【不詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T09:29:06+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T09:41:04+08:00","duration":718,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.77346875,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.81034375,"end":118.40909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.08409375000001,"end":151.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.82159375,"end":170.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.04221875000002,"end":208.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.36971875,"end":223.20284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.79346875000002,"end":260.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.66534375000003,"end":273.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.84034375000005,"end":283.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.37909375000004,"end":298.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.81534375,"end":300.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.08096875,"end":303.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.01721875000004,"end":343.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.65659375,"end":376.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.93409375000005,"end":379.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.81971875000005,"end":413.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.14346875,"end":419.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.64471875000004,"end":422.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.23909375000005,"end":432.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.80284375,"end":439.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.63284375,"end":444.26534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.75471875000005,"end":457.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.79909375000005,"end":474.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.97346875000005,"end":482.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.21284375000005,"end":485.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.57534375000006,"end":486.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.90409375,"end":489.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.62096875000003,"end":505.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.99409375000005,"end":563.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.8078437500001,"end":650.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.56221875,"end":671.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.9597187500001,"end":674.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.1784687500001,"end":702.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.16596875,"end":709.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.7553437500001,"end":713.2865937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.782,"end":26.664,"text":"好 謝謝主席在進入今天的審查之前我也要針對程序來表達一下意見首先是這個人工生殖法其實這一次不管是院版還是我們很多民進黨委員的版本強調的都是這個人工生殖法的精神也就是誰可以使用這個技術以及技術上是如何規範就像剛剛陳吉輝委員講的這是非常理性非常科學的討論"},{"start":27.685,"end":43.759,"text":"但是代理孕母涉及的議題不只是理性科學的層面而是涉及台灣的倫理台灣的家庭台灣的親權以及女性身體的自主權以及這些兒少小孩的利益"},{"start":44.62,"end":60.642,"text":"受疾的層面完全不只是技術所以我們今天在這邊把代理孕母只用9條就要放進來跟我們人工生殖法其他包括有自己子宮的所有女性放在一起審查實屬不可"},{"start":61.857,"end":89.945,"text":"代理孕母完全是一個新的議題新的制度新的架構怎麼可以就今天放在這裡跟我們一起審查然後還說就只是一個章節裡面只有9條就要把這麼大的一個題目放在裡面跟我們一起審查呢所以我希望今天可以讓代理孕母跟今天要審查的單身女性以及女同志這些擁有自己子宮的女性完全的脫鉤處理"},{"start":91.525,"end":118.031,"text":"要真的要討論代理孕母有太多太多的爭議必須要一條一條的在另外一個新的專法來處理才對而不是今天放在人工生殖法裡面就要這樣草草的通過草草的過水那再來第二個是這個審查效率的問題就如剛剛陳金輝委員說的很多女性想生的能生的其實他們都非常願意生"},{"start":119.147,"end":133.655,"text":"那他們願意生所以他們也等了很久那今天這部法案硬是把代理母放進來只會拖延審查的效率因為這是完全兩件不一樣的事情放在這裡審查那這些能夠生的他們還要再等我們這些沒有共識爭議這麼大的部分慢慢的一條一條討論那對於他們來說時間不等人他們是在跟時間賽跑"},{"start":145.541,"end":170.101,"text":"所以如果可以的話是不是今天讓有共識的部分先行先讓大家都願意支持的單身女性跟女同志的部分先上路讓這一些能夠生願意生的人盡量的可以把握時間在自己能夠這個最健康生育的狀況之下盡快的使用這個新的法律"},{"start":171.109,"end":185.751,"text":"那再來第三個我要講一下我們行政院性平處因為其實這其實如果真的要牽涉到代理育母的話這是一個非常重要的性別議題這也是人權的議題所以我看了一下性平處的意見但是"},{"start":186.232,"end":207.812,"text":"性評處給出的這個意見只有兩段完全沒有進入具體的政策評估那也沒有做任何的研究沒有做任何的功課所以我會希望我們行政院性評處你至少要提出一個代孕對於兒少人權對於弱勢女性對於婦女的影響評估報告啊"},{"start":208.573,"end":222.794,"text":"你連這些都沒有做那我們今天如何直接進到代理孕母這麼大的倫理爭議的題目呢那最後剛剛林淑芬委員有提到最近聯合國發布最新的報告顯示"},{"start":223.815,"end":248.668,"text":"他是說這個代理孕母是背離國家國際的人權共識的一個政策甚至他給的建議非常的強硬是希望說各國都應該要禁止代孕這個是國際人權的趨勢所以我在這邊也把這樣子聯合國提出的報告來跟各位分享因為大家開始實施代孕的幾個國家逐漸的發現"},{"start":249.688,"end":272.582,"text":"代理孕母的爭議帶來的後遺症真的太多太多了無論是說代理孕母本身的生產風險的問題還有涉及的法律侵權的問題各式各樣以及裡面涉及的是可能階級造成弱勢女性不管是在家庭內還是社會上她的經濟弱勢家庭地位的弱勢都可能造成階級的剝削"},{"start":275.118,"end":297.79,"text":"這涉及的層面真的非常的廣所以各國的經驗也顯示其實帶領育母真的不是一個好的方向所以希望大家可以參考聯合國最新發布的報告來討論我們作為一個人權立國的國家台灣這麼重視人權的國家真的要讓我們國家的人權這樣的一個招牌蒙上陰影嗎"},{"start":299.898,"end":315.405,"text":"所以拜託要進入代論代孕的討論之前請大家先把以上的問題一個一個拿出來討論倫理過得去嗎人權過得去嗎對於兒少的權益你的心理良心真的過得去嗎"},{"start":316.385,"end":342.545,"text":"那剛剛陳委員也提到說少子化的問題婦產科的問題這個其實都跟今天的討論沒有關係我們在討論的是代理孕母會不會造成弱勢女性階級的剝削我們在討論的是代理孕母會不會造成這一些兒童人工生殖的子女在生產出來之後生產出來之前他的生殖的知悉權"},{"start":343.706,"end":370.626,"text":"他會不會因為他的身份造成這個社會的排擠也好他的制度上也好各式各樣社會層面的問題不是只有單單技術這麼簡單那最後我也要講一下我們剛剛其實提到的像陳金輝委員大家不是對你進行人身攻擊而是你的身份你的職業就是跟利益有直接的相關"},{"start":371.587,"end":400.282,"text":"今天這部法律一旦通過一旦照帶領育母的版本通過那可能增加的是你的生意所以我們要討論的是這個利益迴避的問題你是不是應該要跟大家說明這完全跟人身攻擊沒有關係我們要讓大家知道的是該利益迴避的時候是不是該進行利益迴避你修這個法是為了你個人的利益還是是要造福更多的女性"},{"start":400.962,"end":418.445,"text":"我相信我剛剛以上的說明已經講得非常非常清楚了包括聯合國最新的人權報告裡面都已經告訴大家了這個代孕爭議太大了但是有很多台灣的女性在等著人工生殖法通過"},{"start":419.707,"end":439.497,"text":"那我們還要讓他們等多久明明20個版本裡面多數人的共識都是單身女性跟女同志可以先行可是偏偏在今天卻是硬要把代理運母的條文用一個專章只用9條就想要"},{"start":441.673,"end":456.883,"text":"放進我們這個共同的討論裡面所以我希望如果可以的話先請性評處回去做一個兒少權益跟弱勢婦女的影響評估報告針對人權 針對兒少先進行性別的影響評估報告"},{"start":457.924,"end":486.653,"text":"再來如果可以的話拜託這個代理孕母這麼多的爭議在還沒有人可以回答這些問題之前這九個條文都不能上路也希望今天我們可以把其他有共識的部分先通過先討論讓這個可以生擁有自己子宮擁有自己女性身體自主權的這些女性可以使用自己的子宮來孕育下一代"},{"start":487.967,"end":504.963,"text":"好那最後我來這邊念一下這個聯合國最新的報告裡面他直接提他的題目叫做待遇是一種暴力剝削與虐待的體系請世界各國予以廢止"},{"start":506.024,"end":533.604,"text":"他的用字就是這麼的強硬他提到說代理育母已經演變成一個不受約束的全球性產業他驚人的市場規模跟跨國的購物剝削的模式證明任何試圖以利他為名的有限度的管制都沒有辦法應對商業剝削的普遍的現實那內容當然也提到說弱勢女性可能在其中產生的經濟暴力跟奴役"},{"start":534.284,"end":562.619,"text":"必須要先放棄對自己醫療的決定權限制他的人生自由等等還有心理暴力跟創傷他有提到他的研究顯示說高達33%的帶領育母可能會面臨創傷後的壓力症候群以及這些焦慮的風險那因為他被迫與新生兒分離那可能過程當中也會造成嚴重的心理創傷等等的那更不用說身體暴力跟健康的風險"},{"start":563.88,"end":579.199,"text":"代理孕母面臨的健康風險也是遠高於一般的孕婦這些風險包括說認成糖尿病高血壓以及婆婦產慮等等那最後是升職暴力跟脅迫包括說這個利用父母"},{"start":580.019,"end":608.128,"text":"合約的條款還有權利不對等的關係對於代理孕母施加生殖的脅迫例如說當胎兒如果有殘疾或是多胞胎或者是他要進行性別的選擇的時候這一些委託的父母但委託方可能會強迫代理孕母進行選擇性的墮胎例如說他想要男性以台灣來說如果還是一個這麼如果社會上任何一個"},{"start":609.209,"end":623.491,"text":"還是非常重男輕女的家庭希望我們還是要生一個男孩的時候那結果這個代理孕母孕育出來的是女性那很可能他們就會強迫代理孕母進行墮胎更不用說"},{"start":624.272,"end":649.631,"text":"如果他希望的是擠胞胎他是不是會植入非常多的胚胎那社會上也有非常多的研究顯示植入多胞胎的風險會大增更不用說當如果植入的胚胎有預想不到的殘疾是不是也會強迫這個代理孕母要進行墮胎或者是強迫解約呢這些問題都沒有人可以回答"},{"start":650.612,"end":669.968,"text":"那這些問題現在社會上 國際上已經有非常多的例子顯示會造成非常殘酷的倫理的後果那所以這一些調查報告都已經寫得非常清楚了我們真的要繼續步上這樣的後塵嗎我們真的要繼續讓台灣這樣的人權國家蒙上這麼重的陰影嗎"},{"start":676.229,"end":701.541,"text":"更何況沒錯這9條裡面都沒有任何的規範包括對於代理孕母的照顧對於他們人權的守護還有這些兒少權益都沒有任何細緻的規範就是非常草率的9條所以在這邊利用程序發言我希望大家可以支持我們今天先處理單身女性以及女同志的部分"},{"start":702.601,"end":708.744,"text":"帶領孕母的爭議這麼大 請不要衝突上路不要在今天一併審查 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員 接下來請沈博洋委員"}]}},{"id":"166966","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166966","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f543d3efe018ef238642bf20238130c06451e25119d80932fbaf0f546765d3498e985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:22:31 - 09:29:00","影片長度":"00:06:29","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「人工生殖法修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十四) 委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一) 委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員鄭正鈐等20人擬具「人工生殖法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三（三）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】【不詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T09:22:31+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T09:29:00+08:00","duration":389,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.97596875,"end":247.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.86096875,"end":224.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.21159375000002,"end":296.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.94659375000003,"end":297.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.90846875,"end":379.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.66346875000005,"end":381.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.35096875000005,"end":384.51096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":24.486,"text":"大家好其實我在這邊是很希望呼籲今天的會議是停留在理性然後科學我們可以援引非常多的醫學一起來討論當然我也請林淑芬委員可以高抬貴手根據國建署的統計還有內政部的統計我們今年1到11月台灣的新生兒人數僅有9萬"},{"start":27.488,"end":54.814,"text":"原本我在做總諮詢的時候大家都說有一個12萬新生兒保衛戰可是1月10號就快要發布新的新生兒數據可能只有10萬出頭或者是不到10萬那當然呢這個您很敬重的前輩也就是我們綠營的大佬李茂聖醫師他也非常的憂心忡忡他很擔心明年的這個出生率甚至不到10萬"},{"start":56.014,"end":82.1,"text":"所以台灣現在正處於一個急速下滑觸目驚心的崩跌階段所以我跟所有的國民黨委員其實我們是希望大家可以每一個方向都來理性的討論有什麼方法可以幫助台灣都非常的好那我也希望林淑芬委員不要折損這麼多婦產科醫師的信心畢竟"},{"start":83.2,"end":110.988,"text":"大家上次有看到我們在辦人工生殖法公聽會的時候所有的婦產科醫師都有來這邊發言說第一現在想要從事這個科別的人越來越少了當你從蔡政府執政以前看到22萬的新生兒到現在是一年10萬的保衛戰甚至明年有可能是9萬8萬基本上是沒有人會從事這個行業的大家一定是往"},{"start":111.528,"end":134.446,"text":"其他的行業去所以如果再這樣子說的話就更多人不願意再從事這個行業了並且所有上次來發言公聽會的醫師也是兢兢業業的在做他們該做的工作幫助沒有辦法生小孩的人努力的生出小孩我個人也非常非常的辛苦"},{"start":134.966,"end":150.182,"text":"希望可以幫助這個生不出小孩的人為我們所有的台灣都生出台灣之子台灣之女所以我也希望今天委員會的內容都可以停留在一個理性不要人身攻擊並且科學我們這樣子來說"},{"start":153.846,"end":176.806,"text":"那當然在這個整個吵吵鬧鬧的階段很多人會誤以為單身的女生生育或者是女女同志生育或者是需要代理育母是完全沒有交集的三個圓但其實不是的在臨床上我們等一下也可以請教我們的許多衛福部的官員"},{"start":178.067,"end":194.299,"text":"在臨床上本來我們在結婚或者是我們想要生育的這些年紀逐漸往上的時候本來就是會有一些子宮的狀態他是沒有辦法自己用自己的卵來生育的"},{"start":194.679,"end":209.694,"text":"那我希望我們在脫鉤如果其他人有想要脫鉤的狀態之下呢也可以充分的讓您的支持者去理解說當你是在女女同志或是你在單身女生的這個範疇內未來想應用"},{"start":212.677,"end":226.751,"text":"人工生殖技術來生育其實你也必須要擁有一個非常健康的子宮否則你也會被排除在適用人工生殖的這個領域之外的第三在這邊還是一樣非常肯定我們國健署衛福部在2024年5月預告出來的版本"},{"start":235.68,"end":253.979,"text":"因為其實在不是立法委員的時候我們就常常以專家的身份陪同衛福部做一些考察或是外國的學者來訪問那他們在做這個2024年5月預告的草案這個是衛福部官員偶心瀝雪"},{"start":255.181,"end":274.057,"text":"經過到了非常多這個成熟的國家去做考察還有跟他們的官員做交流所以這個版本是非常的詳細的那這個版本同時也參照了以前賴清德總統他是在立法院第一個提出人工生殖法相關法案的立法委員"},{"start":274.777,"end":295.789,"text":"他是從民國80年就開始討論賴清德總統還為此分別在民國91年95年提案兩次兩次開放的範圍都非常的廣那我當然覺得目前我們其實我是希望所有在這個房間裡面不管是媒體朋友不管是官員不管是委員或者是"},{"start":298.19,"end":313.681,"text":"關心這個議題的人我們每一個人如果在這邊把自己當成一起來想方設法解決台灣少子化問題的一份子那就是我們可以實踐我們身為立法委員的責任了那在這邊也希望"},{"start":314.241,"end":331.772,"text":"主席可以控制今天的場面可以維持在理性理性科學並且是為台灣目前這個少子化嚴峻的狀況之下一起所做的討論我們也可以來參照每一個國家每一個國家現在現行的制度然後我們來列成自己"},{"start":332.372,"end":346.931,"text":"台灣目前適用的方案那我也希望在這邊可以重申其實剛剛講的這些範疇的人每一個人都是有交集的每一個人都是有交集的並不是通過了這個脫鉤的版本這群人"},{"start":347.512,"end":373.469,"text":"最後如果他並沒有擁有一個健康的子宮他就沒有辦法適用這樣子的人工生殖法那這個是大家要的嗎我覺得今天應該我們停留在這個理性的討論而不是互相的做人身攻擊也希望大家為台灣所有還願意從事婦產科還願意從事集中症還願意從事這些沒有人要去做的內科外科等等的科別"},{"start":373.949,"end":379.053,"text":"小兒科等等的科別的醫師 醫護人員持續的打氣非常謝謝大家那接下來請黃婕委員"}]}},{"id":"166965","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166965","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5437e5b052aafd3bf6abf20238130c06451e25119d80932fbaf0f546765d3498e985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"09:09:57 - 09:22:15","影片長度":"00:12:18","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「人工生殖法修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十四) 委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一) 委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員鄭正鈐等20人擬具「人工生殖法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三（三）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】【不詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T09:09:57+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T09:22:15+08:00","duration":738,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.130343750000002,"end":42.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.34909375,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.39471875,"end":81.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.33034375000001,"end":93.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.97409375000001,"end":98.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.73284375,"end":118.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.79284375,"end":131.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.83784375000002,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.09096875,"end":129.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.95971875,"end":134.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.16596875000002,"end":228.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.34534375,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.49721875,"end":238.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.54221875000002,"end":248.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.12284375000002,"end":257.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.60659375,"end":276.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.11846875000003,"end":292.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.42409375,"end":298.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.08971875000003,"end":305.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.93659375000004,"end":307.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.43846875,"end":310.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.12159375000005,"end":312.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.33221875000004,"end":332.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.70471875000004,"end":334.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.91096875,"end":346.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.94721875000005,"end":356.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.19034375,"end":364.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.81346875,"end":369.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.36971875,"end":372.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.93034375,"end":377.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.40659375,"end":385.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.56971875000005,"end":393.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.79221875,"end":402.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.87096875000003,"end":413.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.10971875,"end":422.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.95221875000004,"end":448.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.59784375000004,"end":471.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.80096875000004,"end":477.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.82971875000004,"end":486.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.92534375,"end":489.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.92909375000005,"end":500.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.74159375000005,"end":536.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.0947187500001,"end":549.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.3078437500001,"end":562.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.9640937500001,"end":569.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.8490937500001,"end":575.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.83971875,"end":579.1809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.4465937500001,"end":584.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.73284375,"end":586.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.2978437500001,"end":604.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.0672187499999,"end":607.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.3959687500001,"end":610.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.58096875,"end":614.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.24284375,"end":617.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.62221875,"end":623.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.5959687500001,"end":626.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.1397187499999,"end":631.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.23596875,"end":635.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.02846875,"end":644.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.17909375,"end":650.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.7647187499999,"end":654.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.71346875,"end":675.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.95909375,"end":680.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.34221875,"end":685.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.8647187500001,"end":688.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.91909375,"end":692.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.4584687500001,"end":7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社會上大概是沒有辦法取得共識以外我們認為姿勢體大因為聯合國也剛發布了一個針對婦女和兒童小孩權益的通過了一個"},{"start":43.413,"end":61.588,"text":"的文書所以在這個裡面我們聯合國也希望說代理孕母的母親他們指出一個現象這個代理孕母通常都是因為經濟需求居多而作為代理孕母的"},{"start":62.168,"end":81.585,"text":"那在這個過程裡面大多數的代理孕母都來自低收入的家庭跟委託代理孕母去生小孩的委託父母相比社會地位比較低而且這些女性在這個整個代孕的過程很多"},{"start":83.406,"end":97.493,"text":"這個保護上的機制都不足而且風險極高那在這裡喔我要請大家呼籲大家要審慎的看待這件事情因為呢現在帶領母生的是小孩而不是產出一個產品"},{"start":98.789,"end":117.974,"text":"那在這個裡面他會試射到被生出來的這個小孩的兒童的權益的評估會受到影響那這個國家我們做出了對兒童權益上的評估了嗎大家提案的人都認為說這不會傷及兒童權益嗎我舉幾個例子"},{"start":119.864,"end":133.935,"text":"如果這個代理母生出生產的過程裡面然後因為生產事故結果產出的兒童受到窘迫產生了腦性麻痺結果委託的父母不願意買單了"},{"start":135.276,"end":161.583,"text":"那這個小孩是誰的責任那這個小孩又何其無辜如果是自己的孩子母親懷胎10個月我再辛苦我都會好好的保護他這是我的小孩可是這裡是他人的小孩而他只是一個幫忙生小孩的代理孕母有幾個代理孕母會願意養他一輩子那這個責任誰要承擔要怎麼承擔"},{"start":163.003,"end":183.175,"text":"然後另外呢如果小孩還沒有生出來父母親就離婚了然後兩個人都不要這個小孩那怎麼辦如果在這個過程裡面生出來有難以想像的基因缺陷那這個定制的代孕的委託的父母他也不想要領養了怎麼辦"},{"start":184.736,"end":191.801,"text":"然後呢 如果這個代理孕母在生產 大家都知道生產就是有風險的生產的過程 如果這個代理孕母死亡了"},{"start":200.646,"end":227.167,"text":"那這個風險他的家庭也有自己的小孩誰要去顧這個小孩那再來說大家都把他說我們這個不能商業化那不商業化商業化還能拿錢不能商業化把價格壓到市場裡面不是市場機制和競爭價格結果變成只能給營養金還要剝削這個代理運母假裝我們不是商業化其實"},{"start":229.711,"end":256.051,"text":"這些委託的父母更高興因為不能付錢所以呢委託的金額只能給營養金價格更便宜所以這個問題在制度面設計的時候請問你們對婦女的權益的評估做了什麼有有足夠的評估嗎所以今天在這裡我不要講政黨上說要不要脫鉤我們的意思是說這人工生殖法人工這個"},{"start":258.686,"end":276.349,"text":"人工升職這個法律在規定什麼這一部整個法律都在規定人工升職那操作的機構要怎麼規範然後這個委託人資格是什麼然後就是這樣那你的代理運母跟這整部法的概念根本都是"},{"start":277.21,"end":305.713,"text":"不相干的代理育母市社的社会的层次更宽更广问题更多更复杂还有伦理的还有其他的那我们今天把他们大杂烩放在一起审这真的是这样子下去我想第一个除了很难取得共识以外也不是妥当的把代理育母的这一个法制化的规范放到人工生殖法里面也是"},{"start":306.963,"end":331.857,"text":"便宜行事的我認為是不妥的再來陳委員 不好意思 我要講陳金輝委員 我不是說陳昭之委員你是人工生殖領域的這個醫師和從業的這個產業的人那你提一個有利於人工生殖的這一個產業的條文的修正還提了"},{"start":333.458,"end":355.999,"text":"對 大家也知道不孕症的這個負責這個處理不孕症的醫生未來如果通過的話 行李也會給很好的但是呢 這不用利益迴避嗎你是從業的這個醫師然後你在這個裡面法案通過會獲取利益其實你更應該要利益迴避"},{"start":357.427,"end":384.629,"text":"你沒迴避又提法案又跳到第一線 而且還在人工生殖法裡面不應該放到這裡面來處理的代理運母上面 放到這裡面來現在立法院 大家都這樣大家都這樣都沒倫理啊 也沒責任 大家都不用利益迴避了有利於自己的產業的 然後就趕快來提案 那就趕快合同過"},{"start":386.584,"end":406.913,"text":"我是覺得說最好是不要這樣子啦所以我在這裡也是建議我們的教委就是說其實你把二十案都擺在社會 社會性這件事就不妥當了這就沒辦法 這不同邏輯 不同領域一個是香蕉 一個是蘋果你把香蕉 蘋果 要把它放在社會說我們社會來討論 它好吃不好吃有適當沒適當 那就不一樣了"},{"start":414.164,"end":420.218,"text":"人工這個升值這個技術的規範誰可以使用倫理上機構要怎麼規範跟"},{"start":423.018,"end":447.914,"text":"要不要開放這個社會代理孕母帶有錢人生的孩子還是帶少數的這個特殊需求的人生的孩子這要另外另立一部法律把它拆開另立一部法律才是慎重的正重的你要保護到兒童要保護到婦女權益的所以我們建議是不是說應該"},{"start":450.137,"end":460.448,"text":"兩個法律要拆開啦 要脫鉤啦然後審查 今天的審查今天在這裏 標刮下去很簡單的但是沒辦法 今天在標刮的是四名人工生殖 你去用代理運務把它放下來代理運務 洗出來的孩子是一個孩子不是一個四名 不是一個生產一個產品"},{"start":472.87,"end":488.757,"text":"是一條嬰兒 然後代理孕母也是一個人她不是一個生產工具把女人的子宮當成生產工具然後可以在這裡買賣這個社會好像真的都這樣退化到這種狀況說你生了人 你就注定說有錢 就應該要有錢 所以我的子宮就要被人家買走"},{"start":501.929,"end":508.932,"text":"不想要也得要 大家都知道情勢所逼 經濟所逼嘛好好的人如果沒有經濟的支給如果沒有這個困難 什麼人要去做代理運母做代理運母 敢不願付出風險這個風險一出來 誰要買單"},{"start":522.438,"end":526.901,"text":"身材的孩子如果有問題 這個是要怎麼解決陳委員因為你自己個人 陳昭之委員為了一個個人的需求然後就要把他全面合法化 這樣檢討如果買也沒關係 你要另外立一部法律好好的討論 好好的架構讓他 我剛剛講的這些情勢不會發生"},{"start":550.419,"end":578.619,"text":"不是只有符合你不孕的女性的權益你也要符合代理孕母的保障啊也要符合這個國家和社會的整體的利益啊我沒有說絕對反對但是絕對反對放在人工生殖法裡面啊我們反對是不能放在人工生殖法裡面硬塞進來草草寥寥青菜就好過"},{"start":580.512,"end":583.319,"text":"知識體大不可以潮潮潮知識體大合規所以"},{"start":587.352,"end":609.883,"text":"在這個人工生殖法裡面把代孕寥寥草草的放進來才是沒有女權概念沒有人權概念沒有兒童權利的概念也沒有婦女權利的概念隨便寥草的放9條只有9條的條文代理孕母只有9條的條文這個社會可不可以接受"},{"start":615.367,"end":634.858,"text":"代理運母的規範社會要開放代理運母只有九條條文這個保障夠嗎這九條條文談得簡單啊但是 孩子是四名代理運母的也是四名不是用錢 搞九條條文就給他買斷"},{"start":637.042,"end":651.373,"text":"不要用九個條文就解決了一個就立了一個允許代理孕母的合法化的不然高調的買回買回這個社會的倫理就要買回這個社會跟國家的身份"},{"start":654.796,"end":672.107,"text":"列9條法律會造成多少孩子的問題造成多少家庭的問題造成多少女性的問題造成階級不公的問題造成經濟弱勢被剝削的問題9條法律夠嗎"},{"start":676.411,"end":684.046,"text":"陳九條陳昭之委員我要叫你陳九條嗎九條陳九條代理運母夠嗎"},{"start":685.922,"end":710.917,"text":"你的成9條足以保障了這一個代理孕母和這個小孩嗎不可以這樣擬蟲啦 我知道藍白表決就過了啦但是都不可以這樣啦這個社會 真的這樣代理孕母以前10%的孩子還有自己的卵子 現在全部都是白人的女人的子宮只剩下生產的作用"},{"start":712.315,"end":719.14,"text":"然後你用9條只有乘9條然後就要來說整個啊 通過啊 合法啦整個國家 整個社會未來要付出的成本會更大好好 謝謝OK那個陳經緯委員完之後再換黃姐委員好不好那我先補充 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有請顧部長來 部長請部長好是 黃委員我說簡單的接續徐巧欣委員剛剛所講的這一些密跟無的這個部分"},{"start":23.257,"end":32.244,"text":"那你這個過去裡面你上任之後就檢視了這個思維檢視思維它的效益到底有沒有而且現在全國國軍現在都認為"},{"start":38.628,"end":56.843,"text":"這個怨聲載道那所以這個這樣的一個減量的思維裡面但到底有沒有效力我們現在我們應該要重新檢討這個部分我請部長盡快來做一個調整那另外就是我們今天我們講的"},{"start":58.953,"end":80.59,"text":"很遺憾的是在前天的晚上空軍一下的F16戰機在夜間訓練的任務中失事乃在搶救新興的飛官中空軍飛行員是以生命承擔國家安全第一線的人員發生這樣的一個憾事對家屬是難以承受的打擊"},{"start":82.251,"end":105.404,"text":"對國軍士氣也會重大的衝擊那當然我們今天我們想回顧過去11年當中這個10年當中有11起的發生重大的一個事故那當然這個是不是在設計上的缺陷偷工減料還是問題所在那當然在這個"},{"start":108.129,"end":111.817,"text":"單座的戰機彈射的部分是購入在1997年的購入"},{"start":114.872,"end":140.95,"text":"没有安装行动防撞系统所以这个等等就发生了这样的一个重大事件那另外就是F16有四大的一个杀手就是空中相撞第二个是空间迷向第三就是大机的昏迷那第四就是操控下的一个撞地那第二个现在我们想的是第一"},{"start":141.73,"end":155.79,"text":"第二項的空中迷向包含大機的昏迷是不是朝向這個方向去做一個深入的調查那部長今天發生的這個事件"},{"start":157.222,"end":174.267,"text":"是不是檢討我們F16現在的布拉克兩棟的這個問題過去到現在一直存在著一個未解決一個問題所在那部長你來回答一下 空軍來回答先請空軍"},{"start":175.848,"end":193.537,"text":"不是委員您指的是要解決空間迷向跟大氣昏迷這個沒有剛剛我說你們是不是朝向這個方向是那另外說他的作業的彈射是不是現在要要提升他空間的彈射包含"},{"start":194.057,"end":210.462,"text":"他的這個生存力能夠提升是 剛委員報告這個Block兩棟它是沿用美軍的這個Colins公司的S2這個彈射座椅它也是零零彈射也就是零高度零速度可以做一個彈射保護飛行員"},{"start":211.602,"end":235.34,"text":"那新購的BLOCK拐動它是Follow美軍的這個洛馬公司的馬丁貝克US-18 ECHO這一型的彈射座椅也是00彈射那您提到的裡面安全的部分其實這都是標準配備裡面包含了救生艇還有信標機還有所有的求生裝備這個在我們國家裡面全部都是標準的配備"},{"start":236.241,"end":256.348,"text":"那有没有可能再提升因为现在我国空军的战机虽然不是海军的这个舰载机但信念和执行任务主要都在于海域本席统计在20年20多年的战机的事故发生约28次事故中有18次发生在海上"},{"start":257.589,"end":274.03,"text":"那比例也为64%其中11次人员失踪或殉职占比例61%所以我们现在就是说在他在飞行中在弹射之后那如果他的这个"},{"start":275.352,"end":301.591,"text":"這個急救的這一些彈射的這個部分是不是可以增加的提升那因為剛剛的數據裡面都已經調查出來了嘛64%約64%在海上有18次的那另外11次是在失蹤或是殉職占61%所以像等等這樣的一個狀況那我們是不是更要提升保障我們空軍的這個軍官"},{"start":303.432,"end":325.463,"text":"謝謝委員的關心這個我們也真的是非常重視飛行員的安全所以說我們在我們的求生背心上面都有一個海水起爆因為我們也知道我們戰機的訓練環境大概您剛剛提到的大部分都在海上所以說它的求生設備有一個海水起爆的裝置觸到海水裡面不管你人是不是清醒它都會自動充氣來保護飛行員的安全那在"},{"start":326.863,"end":355.034,"text":"救生艇上面也是一樣有這樣的一個裝置那海水觸發之後它的求生訊號的信標機會自動啟動那這個在其他的國家未必都有標配但是在我們國家全部都是標配那未來如果有更先進的這些求生裝備的話我們也會那當然未來引進這一些F16升級版的這個布拉克的拐動那它的這個彈射的機能功能是不是就更提升 有沒有是 有"},{"start":355.974,"end":377.108,"text":"是它的除了零零彈射以外它的速限本來從450海里舊式的這個S2提升到這個US-18Echo它可以到600海里的彈射那包含它的手部腿部的這個保護它都有更完整的一個保護措施那因為時間關係那我請國安局包含外交部國防部留著來針對"},{"start":379.77,"end":398.137,"text":"我們解放軍在東部戰區的去年的12月29日的清晨大概7點半宣布的舉動正義使命2025的經驗實際行動幾乎是同步的展開那我們國安局 國安局外交部在"},{"start":399.017,"end":411.843,"text":"先問國防部還有國安局我們在何時得知解放軍對台軍演是否在之前就已經得到解放軍會在這個規劃是否之前就發現部隊的調動的這個跡象"},{"start":415.345,"end":438.955,"text":"本席問的原因是主要希望了解我們的情報的掌握更希望能夠從中得知解放軍何時開始規劃還有它的動員能力在過去每年5到7月份解放軍只有異動調動我們一定可以發現不可能發生突襲式的一個武力犯台"},{"start":440.836,"end":467.328,"text":"另外就是合力艦聯合合力艦宣布三天時間就展開軍演這一次的正義使命宣布同時展開部隊調動集結隔天就進行了實彈的遠襲所以這樣的一個是一個重大重大對我們台灣來講是一個重大的軍演而且同一時間同一步驟那我們這邊的掌握的情況如何回答一下"},{"start":470.083,"end":485.862,"text":"委員好 我是情報次長這一次的軍演我們在演習前的確有掌握到確切的徵喉但是至於徵喉的內容因為情報的必要性所以請委員容許我在這邊不方便跟委員做報告 謝謝"},{"start":487.652,"end":502.342,"text":"現在不是報告的問題現在是國人現在對於我們國軍如何在因應我們兩對岸之間的這樣的一個同步同行的一個角度"},{"start":503.302,"end":522.867,"text":"因為現在忍其動無延遲的突發性的一個實戰轉換這個動員能力的的確非常的驚人所以國軍預警機制也構成極大的壓力那我們今天我們如果對岸同時宣布"},{"start":525.247,"end":547.41,"text":"這個同時同步進行來對我們台灣的經營來講的話我們有沒有即刻的因應的措施現在是國人要聽的這句話你來回答一下好不好報委員有 簡單的回答就是有因為我們已經我們剛剛跟您報告過的在前面的這些重要的預警徵口我們已經掌握了所以國軍做好了準備"},{"start":548.669,"end":570.046,"text":"那我們的社會任性的這些社會任性有沒有在啟動啊我看根本沒有啟動嘛我們好像是一面倒就等對岸裡面把我們繞台我們國內裡面根本沒有任何的動作防衛或是預言預警啊有沒有 全社會任性有沒有在動沒有吧請摘要回答"},{"start":572.993,"end":587.631,"text":"跟委員報告我想是這樣子就是說因為我們預判他的這個軍演的強度之後那我們由國防部的這個部門來啟動我們相關讓我們相關的應酬的作為在可以公開的部分我們在我們的報告裡面都有列舉到那"},{"start":589.366,"end":607.259,"text":"我想其他相關的這個部分我想各部會包括像海巡也都有協同因應那像外交部也有協同因應國安局都有協同因應我想這個大家都一起在努力我想這個是要檢討的地方因為為什麼很多媒體在訪問我的時候第一個"},{"start":607.999,"end":634.568,"text":"既然他们已经展开实弹军演的时候我们内部国内不管是社会任性这一些都要共同启动内部演习来防范未来万一他们实弹演习打到我们自己来而我们没有任何的反备的话这样对我们百姓来讲如何交代以上请问部长你们自己本事要检讨谢谢谢谢黄委员谢谢委员的指教"}]}},{"id":"166973","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166973","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5431e4ac9ee7f93dffc067a41bab2fb0feae25119d80932fbaf686bf1ce6383841d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:03:44 - 10:15:10","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員李坤城等 19 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副部長 如果連你都不知道的話你怎麼能夠 要一個小兵能夠理解呢因為他這一個沒有飛 他勢必有他一定的因素那應該是講說他 我們要去了解他為什麼不願意執行這個任務好 那這個就是風險 我跟您報告 這個就是風險因為這個的決定就是長官"},{"start":170.835,"end":190.695,"text":"長官覺得 因為你問他 他一定說我沒有 我不是但是呢 長官就可以替他決定 他是想敵還是他就是一個該太處不適格的軍人這第一個 法律違反明確性的風險就在這裡所以為什麼我們在談法律的時候 尤其是刑法我們講求明確性原則 非常的重要所以"},{"start":191.755,"end":221.228,"text":"我先講一個就是說你今天把一些思想犯預備放進去的時候這個就會有很大的風險尤其你的立法有講到一些具體的行為你們這次有講到一些具體的行為那如果有具體的行為有過往的案例那你為什麼不條文寫的精確而是用陰謀或預備這種思想犯的概念放進去呢因為思想犯最危險的地方就是會把人的立場情緒跟一些抱怨都變成是降底或投底"},{"start":221.488,"end":246.067,"text":"我要跟委員解釋一下就譬如說飛行員他不執行任務這個事情我們要檢討平時跟暫時第二個部分是他不執行任務他的具體原因是什麼第三個部分是有關相關的這個頭體跟翔體我們必須要按照個案他有具體的行為來做檢討而不是說他今天有一個不是 你們的條文還包括到陳平時期跟開戰前"},{"start":247.688,"end":258.877,"text":"或戰事發生前所以我們必須要按照他個案發生的情形那不執行任務那我再跟您說明這就是我們法律人擔心的部分因為什麼都個案 什麼都個案到最後"},{"start":260.069,"end":283.619,"text":"您也搞不清楚 小兵更搞不清楚好不好 這先跟您說明第一個第二個 什麼叫做效忠這也是一個很不明確的一個概念那我先請教您一個問題現役軍人如果用社群轉發一個敵方的媒體影片譬如說戰狼啊 講那中國人民解放軍多厲害這個然後配文寫 我希望兩岸不要發生戰爭"},{"start":285,"end":303.333,"text":"他沒有收錢也沒有接觸對方然後只是轉貼那請問一下敵人看到了那這算不算是效忠上有問題或效忠敵人 算不算這個要從個案上面去講那第二個 被截圖轉傳就是軍人私下跟朋友聊天然後呢 跟朋友罵了一句話"},{"start":304.654,"end":333.349,"text":"結果朋友截圖轉到對岸的群組或是稱讚對岸的軍力多強請問這個有沒有效忠對方對岸的人看到了 有沒有還是跟委員報告第三個 兩岸往來如果軍人跑去那邊探親或辦台胞證或上淘寶去買檢體書然後跟軍隊同仁說那邊生活不錯這個算不算效忠敵人"},{"start":334.429,"end":339.306,"text":"我現在講的都是藍綠白 任何一個國民都會遇到的問題請問這是不是效忠"},{"start":340.665,"end":368.921,"text":"我要跟委員報告還是依據他有個案具體的行為去檢討好那再來如果軍人啊KTV唱歌唱一唱說我好累希望敵人趕快來這樣算不算還有再來如果是一些你們講連間接都算嘛那請問什麼叫做間接這是第一個問題什麼叫做間接第二個如果我在臉書上面按讚轉發引用點閱分享或者是私訊留言這個算不算這個都沒有明確我跟您報告"},{"start":370.694,"end":398.319,"text":"我再說一件事情我知道你們會跟我回一句話叫做依據憲法第九條軍法是適用在軍人不是用在一般平民對不對但是請看四字二七二號戒嚴時期軍法也有可能適用在一般人民所以今天我會很擔心一件事你今天軍法訂了以後依照我國的法制是有可能用在一般人民依據四字二七二號所以你這些東西不能這麼不明確否則今天不"},{"start":398.999,"end":419.422,"text":"不管誰執政都有民主國家執政可能是輪替的那我也不希望說改天如果民眾黨執政或國民黨執政用這個來修理民進黨的人我也不希望這樣所以我一直希望法律能夠有明確性的原則像剛剛主席在質詢我就覺得他質詢的就很清楚那我助理還跑來跟我說剛剛王委員今天的質詢很棒所以"},{"start":420.723,"end":447.334,"text":"沒有真的剛剛我助理就在這裡他剛剛就這樣跟我講所以我覺得這個是大家關注的議題法律明確性這個不分任何政黨的傾向我們支持那個陸海空軍刑法去辦叛國的人但是我們希望法律要有明確性更何況這一次司法院跟法務部其實都有報告來提醒你們說這個效忠這個用語太空泛太廣泛了"},{"start":447.694,"end":464.304,"text":"建議你們要加上這個行為要有足以產生軍事上的不利益這是這次司法院跟法務部都有給你們做這樣的建議並不是說只有我今天在這裡這樣子提出來我想很多東西不教而殺越之虐"},{"start":466.192,"end":478.627,"text":"副部長如果連您都很難去馬上判斷的時候小兵或者是基層軍官更不容易判斷更何況4.272號他是有可能在宣布戒嚴的時候"},{"start":480.34,"end":508.255,"text":"適用到一般人民身上這就是我認為 陸海空運刑法要 我們也要嚴格去看不是它只有針對軍人而是會針對到一般的平民我不希望啊 就說因為你這個效忠啊跟這個什麼降敵 這個我覺得太空泛我不希望回歸到戒嚴時期我看了一本禁書我就要被抓去關因為這都有可能被歸類是在降敵或者是你 你有沒有陰謀或預備副部長 我不知道你的想法是什麼"},{"start":508.8,"end":525.776,"text":"第一個部分是有關相關的軍刑法的一個修訂我們會做加強的宣導第二個部分就是我們現在所有設的個案他都有強制的辯護人員的設立所以每個個案都會去很緊實的處理"},{"start":526.937,"end":551.695,"text":"按照他個案的狀況來做檢討另外我想跟你們再提醒一下除了陸海公益刑法之外還有陸海空軍的懲罰法嘛你可以記過你可以把他勒令退伍你可以撤職所以對於這種思想上的人他沒有付諸行動或沒有造成實際的危害譬如說我轉發戰狼這部電影雖然我不看那部電影我不屑看但是呢"},{"start":552.355,"end":570.901,"text":"今天如果有人看了一段或截了一段轉傳了那會不會他會把自己給卡到官司卡到刑責因為你現在是要修刑法那其實他可以回歸到你們懲罰法去你可以把他汰除掉你可以把他勒令退伍你可以把他記過這些不是都可以做嗎而不是"},{"start":571.661,"end":599.856,"text":"做了什麼事要把他判刑而且判刑的標準竟然是長官來認定是不是就像我剛剛說的他因為沒有防寒衣他不敢飛結果你認為是想敵他認為我不是想敵我只是要保護我自己的我認為裝備齊全我願意跟我們的敵人一戰決一死戰但是因為現在裝備不齊全我不想飛那你說他是想敵這就會有這個空間存在所以我還是堅持那個點法律人我還是說法律話"},{"start":600.876,"end":618.086,"text":"法律明確性原則這是一個最基本的要求我支持你們對抗所有外來的無力我支持我國的國防我絕對支持但是你不能這樣子有一些不明確的東西在裡面好不好副部長可以麻煩你們在就這部分去加以審查可以嗎"},{"start":623.171,"end":651.159,"text":"至少參考司法院跟法務部的意見吧至少參考吧這個部分再麻煩你那因為272號請你再仔細看一下 釋制272號我們一般人民也有可能會被使用到我要跟委員說明就是每一個個案發生他會不會涉及到相關的一個刑者每一個個案都會很謹慎的處理而且每個個案會確實調查他們具體的行為以及他是有涉犯 沒有強制的辯護制度來"},{"start":652.74,"end":669.476,"text":"但是我跟副部長報告一件事如果連您都沒有辦法一望即知的時候我們更沒有辦法期待一般的士兵能夠知道我怎麼樣會違法怎麼樣不會而且入海公益刑法判刑都非常重這是我擔心我們的小孩都有一天會當兵"},{"start":674.08,"end":686.355,"text":"我也一定會支持我小孩要報效我們這個國家但是我不希望法律不明確好不好謝謝副部長再麻煩您能夠參考一下社會法務部的意見好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳宗憲委員"}]}},{"id":"166972","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166972","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5437db45767d4e66fbf324c55f2e48b25a9e25119d80932fbaf50b48a977d456e315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:59:05 - 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Tahovecahe等19人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員林月琴等17人擬具「大學法第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T09:59:05+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T10:14:16+08:00","duration":911,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9590937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.907218750000002,"end":10.392218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.98284375,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.20159375,"end":15.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.51784375,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.45846875,"end":35.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.767843750000004,"end":40.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.986593750000004,"end":43.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.48846875,"end":47.213468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.69471875,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.44971875,"end":48.242843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.91784375,"end":49.710968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.031593750000006,"end":51.820343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.938468750000006,"end":59.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.072218750000005,"end":69.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.89346875000001,"end":88.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.51909375000001,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.01659375000001,"end":92.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.04596875,"end":93.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.95284375,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.79909375000001,"end":118.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.88159375000001,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.00221875,"end":145.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.60096875000002,"end":132.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.18659375000001,"end":138.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.38909375,"end":138.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.77284375000002,"end":140.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.55659375000002,"end":148.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.41284375,"end":153.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.17159375,"end":174.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.75534375,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.06284375,"end":176.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.74159375000002,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.35159375,"end":197.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.23221875000002,"end":202.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.07096875000002,"end":254.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.46784375000001,"end":260.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.40784375000004,"end":262.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.60596875000005,"end":264.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.42409375,"end":266.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.97659375,"end":267.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.07784375,"end":275.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.22409375,"end":283.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.68346875000003,"end":281.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.46784375000004,"end":288.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.34909375,"end":286.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.45846875,"end":292.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.45784375,"end":292.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.43659375000004,"end":293.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.17909375,"end":308.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.55034375,"end":296.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.92909375,"end":302.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.22346875,"end":312.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.31596875,"end":310.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.01159375000003,"end":314.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.37846875,"end":315.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.77471875000003,"end":319.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.13284375,"end":320.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.68971875,"end":327.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.98846875000004,"end":336.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.09784375000004,"end":328.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.63659375000003,"end":342.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.96471875000003,"end":345.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.77846875,"end":347.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.12846875,"end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有請蘇次長有請次長委員好"},{"start":16.547,"end":35.308,"text":"好 次長好喔剛才聽到這麼多委員的一個心聲就知道大學法已經20年沒有修了那因應到少子化網路的發達跟AI的一個影響包括的是國際的競爭這部分剛才聽到次長說"},{"start":36.81,"end":59.293,"text":"教育部一直都有在準備就修大學法對不對是的好對是的好我們一直在找出最大的共識出來對但是希望能夠推動今天我要跟大家講這一份剛才朱次長你所做的口頭報告並不是現在大家知道的昨天在10點鐘發給大家的版本"},{"start":60.134,"end":88.757,"text":"那個版本今天口頭報告的版本事實上是今天早上還最新才出現的跟昨天晚上10點鐘的版本是不一樣的最大的部分在於調適的不同他有在做檢縮的部分那這個部分在於說教育部其實在這個部分是慢慢的在做檢討慢慢的才呈現出最後是才趕不上了最後拿出來一個版本就是在做今天這個報告這部分這是確定的"},{"start":89.757,"end":117.648,"text":"這一個我就跟大家講的是另外我們也同意公司學校的性質差異還有包括的是大學自治他現在所謂校園民主是非常重要的還包括多元參與是重要的既然剛才 朱市長你已經也說了你們都一直在持續在準備那現在看起來是只差了是不是1月22 23號要進行的大學的校長的會議就只缺這一塊"},{"start":118.961,"end":145.796,"text":"公文報告我們因為有口頭報告跟正式的書面正式的書面有應該有23頁到24頁他就比較詳細的去做說明所以版本並沒有不同沒有你們連不是你們連連次連的那個部分重點的部分那個條式等等你不是照著那個原來的順序去進行的這部分我確認因為大概只有我一個人是完全把它看完的所以我可以這樣說那我現在回答這個問題就是是"},{"start":146.776,"end":164.216,"text":"1月22 23我们部里面目前跟大学的想法是说我们在22 23的校长会议之后把校长会议上针对整个委员的提案我们做一些跟校长们难得有这个场合聚在一起大家做一些讨论之后"},{"start":164.736,"end":176.462,"text":"校长的意见我们就会由教育部分别再来跟不同的团体包含学生跟教育团体做完公认之后找出一个有共识的包括你们今天的版本也是各个"},{"start":177.779,"end":201.769,"text":"意見團體的意見的彙整而不是你們本版的意見這跟昨天國教署所呈現出來的他們已經看過各個委員的版本之後也把意見各個團體的意見彙整之後他們提出來的他們高國教署的意見這個是一個國教署看起來是一個負責任的做法那昨天的這個條件就經過大國教署的一個說明大家都知道在"},{"start":203.137,"end":215.444,"text":"偏鄉地區的學校發展條例當中就已經有蠻多的共識了對我們未來修法就很重要可是到目前為止高教師20年來的對於大學法的修訂卻還沒有就是他現在還在彙整那我剛才問到1月22、23"},{"start":218.405,"end":239.821,"text":"你們對大學校長的意見團體回來說你們還在就又在說跟其他的部分會者所以如果你是這樣講的話真的是叫你們教育部裡面就是出現到高教師就是一個沒有擔當的一個單位那重要是現在是不是可以給個時程我今天就是要給時程如果是因為你剛才說應該是只缺到是大學大學校長的部分對不對"},{"start":240.481,"end":264.238,"text":"因為你們持續的對學生團體的部分對學校的裡面的治理你們有一定有關已經有些關注而且包括像大學的學生自治的這個要點你們都有些引導對不對表示你們做啦但是卻沒有一個擔當再把這樣呈現出來是不是可以給一個承諾就是1月底之前有一個自己的自己的部的建議版本會出來"},{"start":265.978,"end":292.1,"text":"跟我們報告我們認為比較周圓的做法是說在2023大學校長會有一些討論之後大學的一些期待我們可以再來跟相關的團體做個最後的確認那最後的確認要多久你要請問你要說多久請你拿出市長還有高教師廖市長的一個這樣子一個責任或是高教師市長是不是能夠回應啊"},{"start":294.336,"end":318.507,"text":"我們是期待我們是期待是說如果以2023出來我們再去做溝通去會診的話你們要有時間性是不是能夠在因為我們今天已經巡打是不是能夠在下個會期我們有機會你們在2月沒有沒有你們2月還有上班時間啊2月還有上班時間嘛對不對2月就下個會期了對但是我說好這個最重要的是你還是說出來時程就對了"},{"start":320.825,"end":345.342,"text":"我們是期待說因為委員跟同學都有很高的期待你們就是這樣子真的是跟柯市政委員說的從第九屆到現在已經超過十年的時間了就沒辦法這樣做成事件真的是讓人家非常的失望好 那我就回到這邊來好了這樣怎麼畢業沒拿到出來我們現在回應到的是在校務會議上面還是回到校園自治的這個內容啦"},{"start":346.86,"end":360.029,"text":"在校務會議當中學生的部分他的一個召開的門檻你們召開的門檻尤其是臨時的校務會議當中只要五分之一就要五分之一可是學生目前是十分之一嘛 對不對那這一個"},{"start":362.33,"end":385.707,"text":"尤其是學生是非常重要的部分如果他連包括很重要的一些提案重要的包括的是學生宿舍發生問題還包括停車餐飲的問題等等的有出現問題的時候他都沒辦法去做提案那這樣的話事實上是沒辦法去達成一個很重要的一個反映學生的意見那對於提高學生的這個門檻你們對於什麼樣的一個看法"},{"start":387.881,"end":417.101,"text":"跟委員報告我想這分兩個層次啦就是說學生在校園內遇到任何問題絕對不可能只等到校務會去解決啦學校的學務處各個單位就應該要積極的協助同學來處理我想這是第一個那如果有真的需要有整個學校的一個共識或學校決議才會需要提到校務會議對 但是你應該承認吧學生是非常重要在學校的一個發展當然非常重要發展方向上面是不是這部分你是不是覺得應該放寬有這個方向嗎"},{"start":418.101,"end":446.342,"text":"那現在就是說如果真的學校在第一次的處理在優先的處理之後有需要提到校務會議做討論目前校務會議我們剛才 我剛才也報告過學生能夠讓同學有獨立的提案權這塊是教育部的努力的目標至於臨時校務會議的召開因為它是只在刺激到整個學校的狀況可能由學生直接來單獨提召開臨時校務會議這個機制在可行性上面我們要跟學校做討論因為目前來說"},{"start":448.46,"end":462.786,"text":"大學開臨時校會的情況不多我們當然希望說能夠學生的問題如果沒有辦法在當下學校處理的話需要動到校務會議來做處理我想這都是很重大很積極的下一步我們當然也會希望學校能夠不過"},{"start":463.987,"end":479.347,"text":"據我了解學校開臨時校務會議大概除了除了真的有那種我現在只是重點是要提案權的這個要保障啦是這部分這部分我們就往下看另外的在教師在校務會議上的"},{"start":480.328,"end":501.224,"text":"全體的會議人數它不到二分之一啦尤其是就算教師但是很多是兼的行政職變成是一個行政會議的延伸變到校務會議當中去那應該我們本黨的主張是說包括應該要有二分非行政職的教師跟學生的代表這邊要超過到一半那教育部的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":502.485,"end":529.747,"text":"這個方向其實在111年那時候我們曾經有一次也在審議大學法其實委員們的建議也是朝這個方式進行那我們跟大學目前的了解是說可能要顧及到有一些實務的狀況因為有些學校它的專任老師是沒有那麼多沒有兼行政職的沒有那麼多因為學校小 行政單位多一個老師可能都要身兼好幾個行政職了這是第一種情形所以要考慮到學校的規模第二個要跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":530.828,"end":545.543,"text":"有些老師他並不願意他並不是那麼願意能夠來出任所謂的有些老師是比如說他被推選的時候他就系主任他不是學術主管代表可是就是被學校老師推被系裡面老師推出來所以你可以把它編成說"},{"start":546.644,"end":562.74,"text":"有些是属于学校的行政主管的部分而不是属于行政主管那部分这不能做错区分大家可以看得出来差别吧我想学校在意的就是说我们把那个游戏规则讲清楚考量到每个学校跟老师的意愿的不同我们可以来做处理但是不要有"},{"start":563.72,"end":588.012,"text":"不要就是一條線一隔一切好 這個意見就請你把他帶到大學校長會議當中好 謝謝那另外的我們看到的這個下面一樣來這樣講的好了那另外在公立大學的校長的臨選的部分呢有政治力的介入我們看到以台大的管中敏校長頭出現的當初被檢舉中國大學在中國也多所堅持論文涉及超嫌 立委迴避等等就影響到台大565天沒有正式的校長"},{"start":590.973,"end":608.964,"text":"那這個原因就在於說在校長的公立學校校長裡面當中呢有五分之一的代表是由教育部來指定的那這個地方就呈現到會有政治意志的介入到裡面去這邊是不是可以請教"},{"start":610.208,"end":624.639,"text":"所以我們就為了影響 減少這樣的一個影響性啊絕對的是剛才說的 校務會當中的這個比例當中對於公立校 我說的是在公立校長的遴選部分啊 應該所謂教育部的比例也是應該適度的在降低啊"},{"start":625.526,"end":644.4,"text":"那尤其是又是全部的包括的是只要是教育部的這個主管的部分的比例能夠降低那其他的包括因為還有校友還有學生學生這邊不也是要增加嗎對不對因為看到你們現在的一個態度是學生可能到至少一到兩名這個方向你支持嗎根文報告"},{"start":645.971,"end":671.952,"text":"我們支持老師跟學生代表可以參加臨選委員會讓整個臨選委員會更多元那可以超過二分之一以上嗎至於多少比例我想還是要回歸到目前整個校內的狀況因為以目前來講是五分之二是由校務會議推薦校務會議本來就有老師代表 行政同仁代表但是五分之二就不到一半啊大家會算數學啊"},{"start":672.652,"end":673.414,"text":"其實根本報告當時大選法在94年在設計上領選的時候是"},{"start":679.574,"end":699.69,"text":"立法院的討論就是刻意不讓任何一方能夠過半才會五分之二 五分之二 五分之一但教育部事實上不到五分之一因為我們是剩下的餘數大概都只有六分之一 甚至七分之一所以當時是刻意設計說大學校長會不是選舉 它是臨選那臨選強調是代表性不是說誰要過半來主導整個校長"},{"start":704.053,"end":720.398,"text":"所以的意思是說他如果是可以各方的部分的影響各方的有多元意見的話那這樣子選出來的校長就是符合大家的共識的校長因為是校長臨選不是校長選舉啦當時在整個大學跟立法院共識94年是朝這個方向在行"},{"start":720.438,"end":739.289,"text":"但是我們可以看到的是就算是教育部有五分之一的這個樣子的或是說剩下的餘數等等但是你可以看到在管州米校長這個事件當中政治歷史在介入的是太大了結果讓全國的最高的大學的學府出現到沒有556年沒有正式的校長在進行根文報告這個問題我們其實管校長"},{"start":741.73,"end":769.836,"text":"的問題主要是在資訊揭露的部分所以在這個案子之後目前的校長臨選我們對於候選人跟臨選委員之間的資訊揭露利益迴避我們做了非常嚴密的規定至少從這個案子以後到現在這個過程中大概就已經都把這樣的可能性都排除所以我們這也變成一個指引嗎或是說要我們臨選辦法裡面有做了規範我們會後可以把我請人事處整理"},{"start":770.436,"end":799.462,"text":"提供给委员做参考针对利益回避跟资讯揭露的部分好那我最终再回应一下因为刚才郭玉琴委员做了一个很好的一个说明就是说你们对一项包括对青年的就是所谓大学生的学生参与对不对在自治的参与校务会议或是说各种的学校的事务的治理的部分还有关于民主治理因为说你们有做相关的盘点对不对这部分我觉得应该提供给我本席需要这部分好没问题我希望也跟教文委员都给因为这个才是最终大家可以知道说目前"},{"start":800.402,"end":827.603,"text":"教育部尤其是高教師這邊對於大學的治理進行到什麼狀況因為你的資訊不透明甚至我建議這些部分應該把它放到這些資訊應該放到在網路上面因為昨天的話跟高教師對 跟對那個國教署也針對的是在偏遠地區的學校的資訊的揭露部分也是說要有個像儀表本的方式讓他知道我希望如果尤其是高教師本身就是負責高教業務也能夠把這些相關資訊目前的進度不然我們真的不清楚而且就證成說"},{"start":828.664,"end":855.047,"text":"大家都可以从头变成说大家从头再去针对这个议题来做一个讨论的时候就没有一个基本的资讯然后也没有基本的知道你们也许你们做了蛮多的也是蛮好的嘛对不对所以这会非常重要的这可以承诺吗我们来整理目前我们对于大学的相关正式修法体的一些议题目前已经在做的或是已经有什么成果的或是像行政命令的部分可以呈现出来可以吗大概什么多久"},{"start":856.288,"end":884.754,"text":"因為你們持續在做對不對因為我們剩下兩週的時間我們整理一下目前修法我們已經有在做幾週 所以一月底是可以完成是嗎兩週 兩週那兩週 OK 好謝謝 謝謝各位OK 好 我想大學的自治大學的自治是非常重要那大學本來就是基本法應該就是要有一個方向尤其是高教師特別是整套是在整個管理或是說從事治理上面的大學自治是非常就是以及是高學歷的人他這邊應該是比較有一個方向性的"},{"start":885.094,"end":910.187,"text":"就不應該像其他的就是別的署這邊都已經有做到這樣子的一個功能的話他的作用我想也期許啦那個高師長廖師長廖師長還有這個朱市長這部分在你監督的業務方面把這樣的一個氣墮氣魄跟一個方向呈現出來教育部應該有的因為他就是一個指標性的一個部會好不好謝謝委員指導我們會來努力謝謝好謝謝好謝謝劉主任"}]}},{"id":"166971","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166971","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f543c531069b9234eb3cbf20238130c06451e25119d80932fbaf11aaf748057b52845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:03:56 - 10:12:41","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「人工生殖法修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十四) 委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一) 委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員鄭正鈐等20人擬具「人工生殖法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三（三）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】【不詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T10:03:56+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T10:12:41+08:00","duration":525,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":18.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.22471875,"end":2.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.36971875,"end":20.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.500343750000003,"end":24.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.668468750000002,"end":50.250968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.70659375,"end":70.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.63596875,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.02346875,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.01971875000001,"end":132.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.15784375,"end":155.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.75346875,"end":162.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.68471875,"end":176.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.10034375,"end":177.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.82159375,"end":179.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.00284375,"end":183.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.56346875,"end":188.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.16596875000002,"end":200.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.90659375,"end":202.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.10471875000002,"end":205.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.15909375,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.21721875,"end":242.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.29659375000003,"end":245.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.35534375,"end":247.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.14409375000002,"end":254.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.69159375,"end":258.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.68659375000004,"end":260.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.01971875000004,"end":263.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.05721875,"end":267.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.85409375,"end":271.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.81971875,"end":279.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.58221875000004,"end":285.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.07909375,"end":305.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.39659375,"end":340.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.02409375,"end":355.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.75596875,"end":361.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.33721875000003,"end":374.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.21284375000005,"end":377.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.82409375000003,"end":380.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.40596875,"end":384.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.37596875,"end":391.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.40846875,"end":411.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.27034375000005,"end":413.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.58221875000004,"end":417.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.29909375000005,"end":421.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.50096875,"end":437.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.27909375,"end":447.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.97784375000003,"end":450.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.32346875,"end":453.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.99784375,"end":466.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.89471875000004,"end":483.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.36034375,"end":486.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.51596875,"end":489.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.92909375000005,"end":517.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.75159375,"end":522.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.7847187500001,"end":525.38346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.189,"end":23.758,"text":"請一下 謝謝大家來 請 不好意思也是謝謝昭緯從頭開始你就一直說讓我們好好的談然後能夠等一下要實質去做審查那當然這次人工生殖法的修法我的版本事實上是去主張的是也就是未婚或者是目前沒婚姻關係的女性事實上"},{"start":25.179,"end":41.162,"text":"她可以透過這樣子人工生殖法來獲得她的下一代為什麼會當初有提這樣的一個版本第一個因為許多女性她們願意去承擔她自己孕產的風險而且不侵害到任何的第三人"},{"start":41.742,"end":69.819,"text":"所以呢对他人事实上是没有权利上的侵害也是为了回应对女性身体的自主权生育选择的尊重所以人工生殖法不会以一个异性婚姻为唯一的门槛而应该纳入女童自配偶单身女性那当然很多人大概就会去问说那这样子你在意的儿童权利会不会受到影响毕竟孩子一出生可能就面对到的事实上是他是单亲那国外呢在"},{"start":70.72,"end":88.187,"text":"英國劍橋大學一個研究中心他們整個在2016年 2021年都先後發表了針對於人工生殖的單親母親創建的家庭的二階段的研究都透過捐贈者受孕的單親母親"},{"start":89.187,"end":105.475,"text":"的家庭跟雙性家庭去做比較結果研究發現這兩種家庭類型的養育水準幾乎相同孩子的情緒跟行為問題也沒有差異表明說沒有父親的存在的單親母親的本身也不會對孩子有負面的影響"},{"start":106.115,"end":131.683,"text":"所以我的版本為什麼提出來當然也提出來是希望孩子的知情權那我強烈的反對代孕再入法剛剛陳金輝委員講說因為少子化難道少子化我們就可以剝削另外一群人那個叫做經濟弱勢的女性嗎難道少子化我們因為國家要更多孩子的時候讓一個女性被剝削嗎"},{"start":133.24,"end":162.8,"text":"我覺得這不太妥適因為剛剛我相信去年7月14號聯合國就有出了一個特別報告我相信剛剛前面很多委員就提到了他說代孕背景下的婦女常面對到的幾類暴力第一個是經濟暴力大多數的代孕的母親都來自低收入家庭那獲得的報酬僅佔總費用的10%到27.5%都讓中間人的手中拿走了"},{"start":163.761,"end":179.056,"text":"所以如果發生流產或未遵守嚴苛的合同條款的話他們可能會被拒絕支付酬勞第二個還有一個人倫上的問題過去台灣不是沒有發生過過去在台灣"},{"start":180.097,"end":205.18,"text":"妹妹幫姊姊姊夫代孕就生出來孩子事實上是特殊需求的孩子結果姊姊姊夫不認帳一方覺得是你受精卵有問題一方覺得是你子宮有問題可是從頭到尾都是我的話那沒有什麼任何爭議可是這樣的爭議的時候到時候要怎麼去解決透過官司嗎那最後呢孩子的權益到底在哪裡"},{"start":206.229,"end":234.448,"text":"那有沒有去保障到孩子權益甚至這樣子的一個人倫壓力會不會讓一個女性在她家庭當中她受迫於她的家庭就要為她的家人來做代孕這我們也認為對女性事實上也是一種暴力甚至在後續她還會產生心理上的一個暴力存在也就是她在孕期跟產後罹患憂鬱症焦慮症或創傷"},{"start":235.549,"end":257.641,"text":"症候群的時候那造成他心理的傷害那誰誰能夠去讓他反正父母把孩子抱走了那這個代孕者他可能要承受後期的整個生活上的一個改變那誰來讓他誰幫他負擔甚至"},{"start":259.684,"end":278.186,"text":"我想很多女性主義者大概也都會談的我也認為女性的身體怎麼可以被商品化跟物化把女性的生殖功能轉化為可購買的服務這事實上是貶低婦女的一個價值所在那我更為關注的應該就是"},{"start":279.648,"end":307.193,"text":"我們的兒童的最佳利益今天談的是少數的人的一個權益的時候有沒有看到公共利益在哪邊我們的招資委員提出這個不是不能討論可是是不是應該脫鉤好好的去討論不是用9條來解決這個問題那孩子的最佳利益有沒有去考量所以聯合國這個報告也提出來代孕不僅僅影響婦女對兒童"},{"start":309.233,"end":336.716,"text":"特別是女童會造成一個負面的後果也就是身份認同跟知情權透過代孕出生的孩子可能會面臨到長期的身份認同的一個鬥爭而且難以獲取遺傳疾病的一個家族的一個資訊而且另外一個我們更為擔心的是有沒有買賣兒童的一個犯罪嫌疑畢竟商業代孕在本質上就是將兒童轉交給他人以換取報酬"},{"start":338.258,"end":355.038,"text":"這個法律上等同於是買賣另外一個就是法律上的不確定性如果親子關係沒有辦法得到承認的時候孩子可能會陷入到一個法律上不確定性的一個狀態甚至"},{"start":355.839,"end":376.256,"text":"更讓人更為憂心的就是如果孩子就像我剛剛提的台灣的那樣案例如果孩子有先天殘疾的話或不符合期待可能會面臨到拖養受委託的父母的遺棄我過去就在做收出養工作我感佩的是收出養的家庭沒有因為血緣關係一定要自己的小孩"},{"start":381.451,"end":409.17,"text":"他來到了收養機構然後同樣對不是他有血緣的關係付出愛付出真心所以如果今天要做代孕的時候我們以前過去在收出養都有不斷不斷的評估確定收養父母的狀態當商業化的時候在做代孕的時候有沒有有這樣子的一個機制這都是沒有辦法沒有在這邊充分討論所以我認為衛福部應該要去做影響評估報告"},{"start":412.332,"end":420.617,"text":"而且國際已經也提出來了他認為應該要全面的去廢除代孕"},{"start":421.687,"end":449.561,"text":"以取消一切形式的代孕行為是最終目標並且要努力通過一項具有法律約束力的國際文書來禁止代孕人家都已經提出來這麼嚴重的一個警告希望不要來進行代孕台灣事實上是非常主張人權我們怎麼會是在人權在走倒退另外一個我要提醒我們的藍白的立委在場的立委"},{"start":450.542,"end":453.296,"text":"昨天我們《生權法》只有討論了八條"},{"start":455.271,"end":483.334,"text":"從早上審到下午五點充分的討論好好的討論因為我們都知道身權法關係到身心障礙的權益那在場的立委我想我們的廖昭偉應該也昨天也在場我們如果口口聲聲講說每一個人的權利很重要的時候尤其是弱勢的時候我們怎麼可以去剝削經濟弱勢的婦女我們這何以去不看重我們的兒童權益每次在"},{"start":484.437,"end":485.612,"text":"任何兒少的場子"},{"start":487.597,"end":514.423,"text":"我講的兒童權益可是我想藍燈立委你們也在場的時候常常也把兒童權益放在最前來看的時候為什麼在討論這部法的時候你沒有把兒童權益放在至高五上來看待這件事情甚至兒托法我們總共討論討論了七個整天到現在還沒有討論完所以我非常支持剛才趙薇講到是我們今天法一定要像剛剛前面這幾部法好好的談實質的審謝謝"},{"start":518.8,"end":524.736,"text":"好 謝謝那 熊委員 這個陳秉永說好 對不起 那請黃熊委員"}]}},{"id":"166964","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166964","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5435187067e1c6fa6850af7842d899401a6e25119d80932fbaff93a7319753701da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:51:41 - 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部長請是 許委員好部長好那最近發生的這個非關的意外我想全體國人都非常的遺憾"},{"start":17.694,"end":32.168,"text":"目前也在搜救當中各界都在為他集氣所以我們今天不針對個案討論但是我們希望從本案擴展到整體的空軍飛行安全到底還有哪一些問題跟值得檢討的地方"},{"start":32.748,"end":56.276,"text":"首先有關於飛行員在失事之後甚至是殉職以後的調查一般來說我們都希望有一個真相而不是今天攻擊明天忘記可是我想要問一下2018年我們有一位F16的無性飛官在演習當中殉職那部長請問這個事情調查報告都完成了嗎在台北法院這邊審理是已經結案了嗎還是經過了什麼樣的一個過程"},{"start":57.523,"end":84.03,"text":"委員好 空軍司令部參謀長在這邊做個回答107年這個案子目前分成刑事的部分目前還在還沒有做一個結案為什麼因為高檢那邊還有一些案子還在做一些釐清但是整個是你們以機密為由沒有提供相關資料還是不是這樣子這是一個自由時報的報導因為如果是假的訊息的話那給你們一個時間跟機會來做澄清"},{"start":86.331,"end":111.864,"text":"謝謝委員給我們這個機會那我們空軍司令部都是按照軍事機關對司法機關的這個機密要件的這個申請的要件全部都提供而且在第一時間我們就配合檢調甚至監察院的調查都全數提供這是應該要做的事情但是我們看到自由時報他做了這樣子一個獨家那寫了說沒有癥結的原因是因為你們不願意提供資料"},{"start":112.344,"end":138.673,"text":"所以相關該澄清的該否認的那我認為必須要做到否則對於其他的非官甚至說出意外的大家都會覺得說難道難道這不需要給予相對應的調查嗎這是第一個事情請你們來做一個澄清跟說明再來有關於這個防撞地系統的部分我在去年的12月15號的時候就問過了那今天顧部長也有提到那能夠安裝完成的時間應該是2027年對吧"},{"start":143.083,"end":160.842,"text":"現在預估就是2027年以前全數安裝好 那請問一下昨天記者會為什麼又說的是2028年呢你們知道昨天空軍記者會講的是2028年不是2027年我昨天看記者會的時候就覺得很奇怪我們不是12月15號的時候都已經講好是2027年了嗎請問一下實際的時間"},{"start":164.366,"end":179.151,"text":"跟委員澄清一下這個全案是在2028年所以說他可能是針對鳳展專案全案但是針對裡面的個案AUTO-G CAS這個部分那個時候他問的就是在AUTO-GS嗎就是他就在問防撞地的系統嗎"},{"start":180.251,"end":205.963,"text":"是新聞都是這樣報的啊全案我回去也問了我們專長他說在全案是在所以我告訴你喔等一下我還會再講你們記者會昨天說錯很多資訊今天有一個機會讓你們好好來更正第一個要更正的事情就是這個防撞系統你預計就是2027年要全數完成對吧因為如果到時候跳票的話我還要再跟你追究啊所以時間點要講對不要一下2027一下2028啊是好"},{"start":209.266,"end":223.922,"text":"那再來就是呢因為我覺得你們如果連這麼重要的公開時程記者會上都是錯的那再來你們說這個2018年就要採購了可是呢這個到現在都沒有到貨你說是系統升級的問題上次問過了"},{"start":225.444,"end":245.586,"text":"可是對我來說這些都是藉口為什麼因為已經6年到7年的時間我們完成不了一個美軍2015年就全面裝設的系統本來就應該是要追根究柢而不是雙手一攤那另外請問新購入的F16V是不是它出廠就已經會內建這個防撞系統"},{"start":246.26,"end":268.638,"text":"花委員 兩個問題跟你做一個很快的回答第一個 F16 BLOCK 拐動這個是全數位所以出廠就會具備 Auto GKS 功能第二個 為什麼 BLOCK 兩棟它要這麼久的時間因為美軍到今天它的 BLOCK 兩五三棟也是類比式的飛超系統到今天跟我們是同步在進行沒有一點 Delay"},{"start":269.338,"end":288.894,"text":"他的飛機到現在一架都還沒上機進度跟我們是一模一樣的但是問題是你從2018年到現在是一個6到7年的時間我剛剛為什麼要順勢的去講F16V的問題就在於如果今天他的系統沒有辦法解決這個問題他還在做還在做測試等等的"},{"start":289.614,"end":312.768,"text":"那如果我們原本F16V的66家按照其成你在這個2025年的新聞裡面就本來提到說我們去年本來可以收到10家的F16V但現在全數都延宕了我的意思是這兩個方案嘛一個方案就是我們裝了防撞地的系統"},{"start":313.268,"end":338.268,"text":"但沒有辦法做到 另一個方案就是我們新採購的F16V能夠交貨 我們就會至少有一部分的飛機 戰鬥機是有防撞力系統 但是也沒有交貨所以它就是一個延宕沒有交貨的問題這一點國防部真的是應該要去好好的去追蹤 我問一下今年上半年我們預計能夠拿到多少的F16V"},{"start":340.394,"end":353.606,"text":"這個我們跟美方持續在努力還是沒有答案 又過了這麼好一陣子了 還是沒有答案您也看到新聞在去年年底它的是華是非都已經完成了是啊 所以我現在問你說我們預計上半年如何嘛我們預計上半年 欸 你在2025年的時候可以告訴我們2025年9月的新聞說我們下半年 就是去年齁可以大概拿到10架左右"},{"start":365.737,"end":376.605,"text":"那結果呢又過了一陣子了然後又延宕了我現在再問那今年上半年預計可以取得多少價還是回答不出來還是沒有答案這會讓大家覺得那請問一下我們買了我們買了這個戰機都沒有到貨"},{"start":381.468,"end":404.189,"text":"然後上面明明就出廠就集裝防撞地系統對我們的飛安有很多的幫助而且不只這一項有很多的飛安系統都有升級那我不管你今天是一架兩架三架最起碼對我們國軍來說都是一個新的安全的保障那我現在問你上半年我們預計能夠接貨多少的F16V還是沒有答案 是嗎"},{"start":405.148,"end":421.176,"text":"包委員我們也非常重視這個飛安的問題那整個飛機交機他的安全也是我們最重視的所以說現在整個飛撤的部分持續在進行我如果說今天跟你報了一個數字明天沒有做出來你不要這樣講你們之前就報數字了你們之前就報數字啦2025年有沒有報數字有嘛為什麼我們會說有實價那也是你們報的數字啊以前就可以報數字現在又不報數字說是因為飛安了"},{"start":432.901,"end":437.242,"text":"我當然知道非安很重要啊但問題是你們過去報數字報得這麼漂亮結果全部延宕之後現在我再問你了你又不報數字了你這樣子你覺得交代個過去嗎這才是一個問題嘛年底時價已經完成所以好 完成了那所以今年上半年這時價會到貨嗎"},{"start":449.246,"end":465.371,"text":"它完成組裝但是還要陸續進行所以還是不確定嘛我再跟你談論這個也沒有答案委員報告一下就是說第一架的飛機它要進行的測試據我了解它的項目會比較多所以如果第一架的測試都比較順利的話第二架的交機"},{"start":466.191,"end":469.836,"text":"這個大家都知道的事情就不用多談了我問的就是上半年嘛到1月7號為止生產線在線組裝已經有56架這個有46架的單座機跟10架的雙座機所以你的意思是說上半年如何呢"},{"start":481.048,"end":494.772,"text":"我們現在就是要看它第一架整個的測試的一個結果所以你跟我講了40幾架但是它第一架都還沒有完全的測試完畢那就跟沒有講一樣好不好所以這個部分還是要跟美方再去催活最後我要問一個問題主席再給我一點時間"},{"start":497.173,"end":525.566,"text":"就是呢因為大家現在都非常關心國防部的新措施有關於國軍在文件當中本來連LINE上面都要標明什麼無啊密啊結果在軍人的反彈之下呢取消了只有通訊軟體的部分剩下都保留所以我們昨天記者會看到一個很荒謬的現象報告完畢 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但他只是建議而已他並沒有要求一定都要做那只是suggestion我看過那一份文件他就是一個suggestion但你現在是連報告完畢都要寫一個他們現在整份文件的機密整齊也另外"},{"start":653.909,"end":676.668,"text":"會標逐頁逐段也都會標示機密等級公開資訊就會標示U這跟我們標示5是一樣的那這樣子的一個做法我想是跟國家機密保護法的精神是一致的不一致你國家機密保護法你是律師耶要經過整個過程的核定請問它經過了什麼樣的核定了我們內部就有一個核定的程序"},{"start":677.368,"end":699.701,"text":"你這個都是走國家機密保護法的程序嗎每一樣都是嗎今天的報告裡面也是嗎今天的我們的公開的專案報告裡面你也有走過國家機密保護法的相關核定程序嗎什麼時候進行的對外公開的這樣子的一個資訊我們就會進行討論那對作業的人來講他就要去評斷這一段到底是屬於機密"},{"start":699.841,"end":711.08,"text":"我們在所有的機密保護法裡面不管是一般文書處理手冊或是國家機密保護法都有在密等上面的解密期限請問如果今天上面寫的是密的話那你有沒有解密期限"},{"start":711.823,"end":719.687,"text":"有啊有那可是不是你都是寫無啊我的意思就是說既然無就是沒有啊我告訴你這問題在哪裡好不好我知道你的意思但是今天你就是一個公開的記者會了你就不可能有任何機密然後你還要在每一段上面然後又寫一個無"},{"start":730.973,"end":741.402,"text":"這就是讓大家覺得很好笑你今天事件處理過程無報告完畢我跟你講你覺得不好笑全台灣人民看到都覺得很好笑所有的軍官都覺得莫名其妙只有你大副部長覺得不好笑大家都覺得很可笑的事情我說了你內部的文件要怎麼寫是你們的事情但是你們要思考到的是公開的記者會那是否還有這樣子的必要"},{"start":758.976,"end":765.781,"text":"否則你不用取消LINE啊你LINE的事情你就繼續幹嘛你剛剛講的這麼大聲覺得你都對那LINE的事情為什麼要取消呢通訊軟體上面欸 美根 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舉動 文字 圖畫 電磁記錄 科技方法或其他方式對敵人表示效忠者對敵人表示效忠者 這個新增的啦就是大概這個修法 今天我們修法大概就這三個部分那這三個部分呢 這個"},{"start":133.359,"end":141.454,"text":"有關於這個提高刑責的部分我想大家應該這個社會大家共識應該是是比較沒有什麼爭議啦那關於這個"},{"start":144.63,"end":172.787,"text":"這個預備或陰謀的部分也過去因為實際上在這幾年發生許多案例在這個有預備陰謀的部分他卻沒有無法可苛責所以這個這個也應該比較沒有沒有什麼爭議所以我們剛剛我看剛剛前面委員大概集中的討論的都是有關於我們新增的第五項這個以言語舉動文字圖畫電磁記錄科技方法或其他方式這個對敵人為效忠之表示"},{"start":174.278,"end":185.917,"text":"那這個部分我們先來看這個過去我們看到的幾個案例剛剛也有委員有提到我這邊就舉幾個案例包括這個"},{"start":188.286,"end":214.657,"text":"這個2023年12月所做的判決我們前陸軍上校向德恩他簽了這個祥貢的承諾書祥貢承諾書那在這個最後判刑七年定宴但是問題是他那時候判刑就是因為當時沒有這樣子的規定所以他那時候判刑他在這個陸海空軍刑法裡面他沒有沒有法律可以規範這樣子的行為就簽署這個投降承諾書"},{"start":216.266,"end":243.233,"text":"所以最後判刑七年是按照依照這個貪污秩序條例收賄罪來判刑的嘛對不對是不是這樣 副部長是換句話說假設他沒有收錢假設他沒有收賄那他就變成這個行為就完全他是因為他收了錢他收了這個五十幾萬因為他收錢所以他觸犯貪污秩序條例假設他沒有收錢就簽了這個頭獎協議書"},{"start":244.844,"end":255.596,"text":"那這個按照如果我們沒有做修法的話按照目前的這個陸海控制刑法是不是我們沒有沒有辦法與法律上的苛責 副部長副部長還是我們司長要回答"},{"start":256.724,"end":284.396,"text":"各位報告 這確實上有法治上不足之處啊對 所以為什麼我們這次要做這樣的修法就是因為相關的行為這個2023年這個案子另外去年的2月我們有關於這個這個蕭翔雲 康一彬等等八名現役軍人的這個預謀嫁軍機叛逃拍攝新戰投降影片這個部分最後判刑也是依參互之罪條例也是因為他們收錢"},{"start":285.416,"end":301.14,"text":"假設都沒有這種收賄的行為今天我們不修法的話會變成這個我們目前的陸海空行法對這個部分沒有辦法苛責所以這部分我想我們會支持這樣的修法但是剛才所有委員大概關注一個問題這個問題"},{"start":303.34,"end":329.211,"text":"來自於什麼 來自於我們司法院今天司法院的書面報告司法院的書面報告也特別點出這一點第一個他們就是說我們在本案的研擬階段提出了這個有關於這個實害結果的這個文字就是說過去原本的案 原本我們的草案在研擬階段還有現在其他委員提案有關於逐生軍事上之不利益者作為這個構成要件"},{"start":330.071,"end":348.762,"text":"的一部分那在我們現在這個今天我們行政院的草案裡面是把這個這樣子的這個實施危險性的部分把它拿掉了那這部分是不是請市長再做一下說明 為什麼剛才我有聽到你的說明大概知道你的意思 是不是請你再說明一次"},{"start":349.645,"end":378.574,"text":"是跟委員再做一個說明因為我們將這個朱以生軍事上之不利益我們拿掉主要這個如果在刑法上是一個私信犯這是法院他後面對他這個行為有一個判斷的一個餘地啦但是我們就是認為說其實現役軍人就是要效忠國家你對敵人就不能夠有有一個效忠的表示這樣這個表示行為一出來我們認為就這個罪就成立了市長這部分齁要這樣子來講"},{"start":380.083,"end":401.441,"text":"因為我們這個什麼陸海空軍刑法開宗明義第一條就是現役軍人犯本法之罪者 依本法處罰啦也就是陸海空軍刑法規範的就是現役軍人這個身份犯的身份 這個身份是非常明確的那麼現役軍人 現役軍人他本質上在法律地位上 他本身就建立在對國家的忠誠義務上面"},{"start":402.242,"end":427.989,"text":"也就是說你這樣簽署簽署這種投降承諾書之類的這樣子的對敵人表示效忠的行為本身就已經違反了你這個作為軍人的這個忠誠義務跟服從命令的義務這個是我們入海空軍刑法第一條開宗明義就是規範他的這些忠誠義務相關所以如果我們加上剛才這個最後這個時害條件你必須"},{"start":430.718,"end":453.443,"text":"對於這個逐生軍事上的損害的話他會造成兩個結果第一個就變成你這個未來所有案件我們國防部必須負舉證責任舉證說他這個行為造成了什麼樣的軍事上面的影響但是其實在我們看來軍人因為他有這個國家忠誠義務因此當他有這個行為的時候他其實就必然的造成軍事上的損害是不是這樣講"},{"start":455.514,"end":473.209,"text":"對 所以就是因為他的身份我們陸海公共刑法的身份犯的這樣子的性質使得這樣子的規定他會造成未來我還要第一個國防部還必須舉證第二 國防部舉證之後你還要看城城法官的心證心證來看你這個到底有沒有造成軍事上的損害但是其實在我們來看"},{"start":474.52,"end":493.051,"text":"因為你是現役軍人因此你的國家就負有忠誠的義務所以你所有你只要有這樣子的簽署承諾書對敵人表示效忠的這樣子的行為的表示的時候你就已經造成軍事上的損害了對不對所以應該不必在這個條文裡面再增設這樣子的實害的條件對不對"},{"start":494.311,"end":517.687,"text":"這個部分我想要講清楚了 講清楚之後我想這個社會也可以接受那這個大家也對於這個清楚說入海空軍刑法的規範跟言論自由是完全沒有關係的它是在規範現役軍人你對國家的忠誠義務跟服從義務 對不對這個部分我想我們在等一下這個主條審查的時候希望我們能夠這個部分能夠表述清楚 好不好好 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謝謝主席 有請次長來 有請朱市長委員好次長早這份是您這個給辦公室各辦公室的報告嘛 對不對本席昨天晚上一直等一直等一直等等到大概10點多快11點才等到這個報告那當然昨天晚上連夜看也沒花很多時間看為什麼呢這裡面真的乏善可陳怎麼講呢"},{"start":32.717,"end":53.42,"text":"請你讓同仁大家這麼辛苦搞到昨天晚上十點半多那我相信這個過程當中大家其實應該就是一直在做一些修正啦或是等等啦但是為什麼出來的是這樣的東西呢整篇的報告通篇不是把一些學校的意見學生團體的意見過去在公聽會上他們這個的一些記錄喔你再做一些彙整"},{"start":53.88,"end":82.529,"text":"然後就把它當作報告就來了那不是不可以要把這些東西進來但重點就是我本身沒有看到半個就是教育部拿出來的立場你拿出來的態度你拿出來的說明都沒有那如果你都沒有意見都沒有立場那我請教一下今天是我們召委排大學法部分條文修正的一個這個詢答那後面如果進行到了主條的審查的時候那請問一下教育部還是一樣跟這份報告一樣沒有任何的意見那我們要怎麼審查次長請說明一下"},{"start":83.189,"end":110.212,"text":"好 謝謝 跟委員說明其實我們持續的在找出大家最大的共識市長 你剛才其實陸陸續續所有的委員在質詢你統統在講說我們很努力因為我們在做我們目前在做什麼找到大家的共識我們在進行溝通我們積極在跟學校跟學生在做溝通這不是目前做的事這件事情你最少教育部做了快十年了快十年了"},{"start":110.732,"end":134.778,"text":"这十年前到现在其实教育的第一线的环境跟教育的样态其实一直在做改变了但你不断的沟通不断的沟通不断的一直在这个寻求所谓的共识十年了没有看到半个共识目前还在做这件事情看起来是ING事实上不是啊我觉得到底是什么原因让你们没有办法面对到底什么原因没有办法提出部的建议或者是版本可不可以就这个部分做说明"},{"start":135.818,"end":163.56,"text":"跟委員報告一下其實大學法修正確實這十幾年來都有在提啦那其實我沒有那麼悲觀是因為我們目前也看到了在學校端跟同學跟教室端其實慢慢是有一次共同修正沒有 次長我再打斷一下沒有人悲觀也沒有人樂觀啊大家是想積極趕快啊把一個屬於學校很好的大學法屬於學生權益保障的大學法趕快出來而已啊但是你搞了整個晚上我們大家昨天一直等一直等"},{"start":163.92,"end":193.62,"text":"没有哪一次召委排案子我们是要等到晚上十点多快十一点才等到你这样一个只是会诊公听会的一个这个结论的一个报告我觉得太糟糕了因为为什么如果说你现在到现在还没有一个你的态度跟立场都还不具体那我只请教一件事情那教育部啊你到底会不会自己提出来这大学法修法的版本那如果到时候我们要审查召委又排了那你会不会有自己的建议文字如果是没有版本的话你只要回到具体两点"},{"start":195.48,"end":222.987,"text":"謝謝委員長我們是希望再給我們一些時間多久時間做具體的條文的時間多久時間因為我剛剛你的希望我們盡量達成嘛那你多久時間你具體講是我跟委員報告我們在10月20 23的全國大學校長會議會就委員兩個委員還有我們總共14個提案版本的意見我們會在那個場合跟大學校長做最後的一些徵詢市長啊這些版本啊各大學校長早就有了"},{"start":223.387,"end":250.675,"text":"你們手上早就有了你要溝通早就有人溝通了那意見早就已經可以回收了所以我現在看起來我只問你布裡面會不會提出布板你回答我yes or no我們會有一個中整個各界意見的共識版本出來所以布裡面會提出布板我們會有一個共所以我也不用再詢問你如果沒有布板會不會有建議文字所以布裡面一定會有布板出來我們一定會找出一個多久時間 最大共識的版本"},{"start":251.437,"end":270.047,"text":"我們是希望在十年我跟委員報告因為這個案子因為現在已經有委員具體版本出來了那我們也有討論的基礎吧那我們在二十二 二十三跟大學校長會議這邊有一些共同市長啊 我了解啦就第一個您對大學的這個領域啊其實非常的熟悉那部長更不用說了"},{"start":270.447,"end":286.514,"text":"是在这个领域的也算专家实践者所以我希望在这件事情上面你们要拿出态度拿出意见来更积极一点接下来我想我来去问一下我们114年度目前我看到有六所学校的注册率"},{"start":286.914,"end":303.697,"text":"未達六成的淹水線其中我們看到國立的台東專科學校它的註冊率甚至於只有31.75%非常的低全台墊底我想我們看到對於私校而言"},{"start":304.378,"end":329.397,"text":"那我们的学生的学费啊是收入来源之一更是我们来争取教育部的补助经费重要的指标之一嘛如果说今天注册率低恐怕其实他的收入就影响他未来的经营哦那但私立学校可能就会退场可是那国立学校呢公立学校呢所以我想请教一下市长哦你对于看到啊这个国立台东专科学校以31.75垫底啊我们未来有什么样因应的一个对策好"},{"start":330.097,"end":355.715,"text":"谢谢文指导台中专校的部分确实因为它的区位的关系所以在招生上是相对的困难市长设立的时候区位的问题就在了不是现在才冒出来的因为再加上少子化跟产业的人才培育这一块我们现在是期待说能够透过当地比如说我们有大学那我们是不是可以来协助我们台中专校在整个产业人才培育是一贯式的"},{"start":356.115,"end":372.082,"text":"好 那這個部分看起來有計畫能不能會後啊會後就把計畫直接送過來應該不用等嘛 對不對今天下午會後就把它送過來那我本下在這裡提醒啦我們少子化現在是越來越嚴重你這個註冊率應該還有含外籍生的註冊率加在一起對不對"},{"start":372.942,"end":393.964,"text":"你看看如果我们还没有开放外移生如果光靠本国生这注册率真是低的可怜是很可怕的一件事而且教育部你自己推过了一个数字本席看了也是觉得很可怕117年学年度大一的新生将只有17.3万人那这个是你的数字然后全国私立学校产业工会也分析如果按照这样下去"},{"start":394.505,"end":419.893,"text":"由于这个数字上面公立大专所提供了12个名额那私校可能只有5万多个学生的来源那这样的情况恐怕到时候会有40所的这个私立大专院校会面临退场那这个对到117年也不是那两年多的时间基于你们也把这个数字数字出来了工会也开始预警了我想在这个部分次长"},{"start":420.433,"end":429.252,"text":"一樣我們能不能一週內你把這個相關的數字因應的政策你的對策是哪一些一個禮拜送到本席辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":430.691,"end":459.296,"text":"委員是不是可以給我們兩週時間我們稍微彙整一下兩週一週這件事情其實照講應該一天你就應該有了為什麼因為這個事情是你一直在掌握的一週內好不好好 謝謝那再來我想再請教就是說到時候給我的時候順便把我們私校現在有一些學校退場退場之後我們過去尤其在上一屆的時候我們很在乎就是學生的這個轉嫌這個問題那你一定有追蹤這個追蹤報告一起一週內送過來好不好好 沒問題好"},{"start":460.376,"end":481.025,"text":"那最後一個部分我看到我們苗栗亞太創意技術學院停辦到現在超過6年了那原來我們以為進入到清算的程序就校產可以順利歸功想不到發生史上第一起公益董事跟教育部互槓而且槓得非常的兇那所以這個公益董事也召開了記者會"},{"start":482.185,"end":502.978,"text":"我真的覺得不太好看痛批教育部行政怠惰阻撓校地媒合導致清算工作停擺那甚至於就是說抗議教育部是有強迫公開飆售會讓他們僅有8000萬的負債卻導致24億的資產落入財團手中我想這個爭議真的值得好好說明一下"},{"start":504.239,"end":531.949,"text":"對於這個教育部也有提出來說哎呀我們也去找了很多這個政府單位啦或者是學校但沒有人要接手簡單的報告你找哪些政府單位拿起所學校我跟委員報告我們是透過廣發給各個相關的部我們每個退場學校我們都是做這樣的處理所以針對亞太創意技術學院這件事你沒有去徵詢沒有去積極還是要按照過去這樣廣發次長我覺得這裡要修正喔"},{"start":532.749,"end":551.254,"text":"這不可以喔第一個呢你也不是面臨這麼多的學校同時間讓你沒有辦法忙不過來那對於這個學校這樣的狀況公益董事都進來了那你就應該要好好去徵詢積極的去幫忙嘛不是嗎你還是用廣發我覺得太消極啦我們廣發之後都有逐一的跟不會"},{"start":553.035,"end":568.806,"text":"你說你廣發了但是公益董事成員之一也是高教工會理事長的周平他就說到董事會曾經主動洽舉了清華大學 陽明交大 聯合大學在一開始的時候這些學校都向他表示願意接手"},{"start":569.266,"end":589.746,"text":"而且也进行了实地勘察但是传出我们司长啊纪职司不但没有积极促成而且还去暗示承接的单位说如果你接了我们不会有经费的补助你可能要自己好好想一想哦所以这些学校纷纷打退堂鼓哦市长这个时间也让你们澄清一下有没有这件事情为什么会有这样的指控绝对没有绝对没有"},{"start":589.946,"end":605.654,"text":"委員我要鄭重的澄清假如這三個學校的校長有接到我的電話我馬上請辭我沒有跟這三個校長打過任何一通電話我們對於所有私立學校退場的校弟"},{"start":606.514,"end":623.039,"text":"国有化公共化这是一致的原则我们甚至还去拜托学校能不能在校务可以使用这个校地的前提之下可以来接收我们不会去阻挡真的市长我想"},{"start":623.999,"end":652.931,"text":"你今天也是本席也給你一個公開說明的機會啦喔那不要說董事會實際上一直指控教育部是一心只想透過公開飆售來解決這個問題喔那我想公平公正公開透明這當然是非常重要但是我也希望喔教育部能夠協助盡量來協助喔那這個校產經過建價24億負債僅8千萬如果公益董事有這麼多的意見啦我建議啦部裡面再去做溝通我們做最好的一個這個處理喔"},{"start":653.351,"end":678.618,"text":"不要說台灣第一次發生公益董事集體請辭總辭對教育部對學校對我們教育現場都不是好事可不可以在一週內請司長也協助我們次長一起把這個個案在整個過程當中一週內我們也把函文來給我們辦公室可以嗎我們一週內把我們在過去協助的相關措施我們都提供給委員包含"},{"start":679.378,"end":696.089,"text":"我們都帶了學校帶了部會到場地去現刊那最後比如說你剛剛講的大學是他們現刊之後校務會議就沒有通過只要校務會議通過了我舉個最簡單的例子像華夏跟台科像清大跟中華"},{"start":696.989,"end":712.621,"text":"沒有問題教育部的立場就是會盡量來協助所以我們我會把這件事整理好市長謝謝我跟你講最後一句話你剛剛還提到這個部分這以後有機會還要跟你談公私並法治化好不好非常樂意跟委員請教好謝謝辛苦了好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166957","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166957","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f54324de3eaf79c8d0c7067a41bab2fb0fea336b50e104cbbb447778f5872ee59a395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:32:45 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甚至連 貪污自罪條例的構成要件 可能也都不足所以 本席是贊成 贊成我們這次的修法 就是陸海空軍刑法第24條 針列的第五項 名文言語"},{"start":147.791,"end":167.608,"text":"舉動文字圖畫電磁記錄科技步伐或其他的方式對敵人效忠之表示納入處罰的範圍可是現在我們卻發現其實有很多人在提修法其實是侵害言論自由造成寒蟬效應請問國防部對這部分的言論我們有什麼樣的說法跟對應我請法律師"},{"start":173.599,"end":196.227,"text":"委員好,我是法律師司長,按照現行司法實務的見解,如果是說現役軍人遭到中共吸收的話,收取對價關係,然後簽署投降的一些誓約書或拍攝影片,他確實因為有收取對價關係,所以會按照貪污之罪條例,收受賄賂罪等相關的罪責加以處罰。"},{"start":197.367,"end":207.186,"text":"如果是沒有的話今天是單純的為敵人一個效忠的表示因為軍人對國家就要有絕對忠誠的義務如果對"},{"start":209.301,"end":228.112,"text":"單純的對敵人為效忠的表示如果現在不用刑責加以嚴禁的話他會嚴重的去影響到我們的軍事安全還有一個部隊的一個內部管理更何況如果敵人利用他這一些拍攝的影片去做政治手法的渲染或像群眾"},{"start":229.093,"end":249.255,"text":"或利用這些去擴散它的一個效益它也會對打擊到我國民心士氣甚至會影響到我國人民對我們軍人保駕衛國的決心所以我們在這一次的修法就這個單純的是向敵人如果他有一個投降的一個表示所以我們單獨的列這個法我們希望這個法"},{"start":250.416,"end":269.412,"text":"能夠通過然後也可以確保我們的軍事跟國家安全那至於說這一個法律修訂有沒有影響到言論自由的方面我這邊可以跟委員做一個報告軍人就是要效忠國家你絕對不能夠去背叛國家甚至你在言語上對國家不忠的言論都是不允許的"},{"start":269.952,"end":287.821,"text":"所以在言論自由的這個部分我們並沒有去限制他只是說只是按照憲法跟國防法的規定他就是要效忠國家不能夠對敵人有任何效忠言論的表示那如果我們對他這種行為加以處罰的話也不會有違反比例原則的相關規定"},{"start":289.205,"end":318.249,"text":"對 因為按照憲法第138條還有國防法第5條還有公務人員服務法第1條它都有規定軍人跟公務人員本際負有高度的忠誠義務所以沒有所謂的這方面妨礙到他的言論自由因為我有看到美國統一軍事司法法典第134條它裡面就有規定他說民主國家普遍承認軍人言論自由"},{"start":319.049,"end":338.605,"text":"並非毫無限制所以我想這個部分應該朝野都應該要來支持的這個修法另外我還有看到就是說原先我們國防部的這個草案的版本有在這個第五項裡面有提有一個字眼被拿掉了足以生軍事上之不利益者"},{"start":339.185,"end":362.314,"text":"可是在行政院版的時候被拿掉了那如果是這個這個判斷基準被拿掉的話是不是會導致構成要件過於寬鬆或者是說產生使用範圍過廣那國防部這部分有什麼樣的說法是 這邊跟委員做一個說明我們訂這個東西將足以升軍事上市不利益我們認為說沒有增進這個必要其實主要在於說如果現役軍人"},{"start":363.214,"end":383.791,"text":"你用言語舉動文字圖畫科技方法見識記錄或其他方式你已經直接或間接對敵人表示為效忠其實就已經嚴重的傷害我們國民的情感跟軍事上的利益那我們去設計這一個法條主要就認為說他對敵人為宣示效忠表示行為這表示一出來之後"},{"start":384.671,"end":412.7,"text":"這個行為就成立是集成犯我們認為他已經對軍事上已經產生不利益了所以我們認為這邊不用再特別的去對所以這句話你們後來也同意行政院版本然後把它拿掉就對了OK好那當然了我們覺得說我們絕對是支持強化軍人忠誠義務的這個形式的這個規範所以我們來補足這個目前現行法令是不足所以我也希望說今天的修法呢朝野能夠有一個共識就是一起來支持今天的修法好以上謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"166959","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166959","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5434264379e25e258bd067a41bab2fb0fea336b50e104cbbb4492aeab3b46f231cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:39:48 - 09:47:16","影片長度":"00:07:28","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員李坤城等 19 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謝謝趙偉 我們有請鍾副部長請鍾副部長副部長早"},{"start":21.397,"end":44.159,"text":"我們今天要審查的是這個陸海空軍刑法第24條的一個修正草案那也是因為大家都很清楚多年來中共對台灣的這個野心從未停止尤其對我們國軍的這個滲透手段已經到了無孔不入無所不用其極的這個地步那先前我們也曾經看到在我國這個軍官"},{"start":46.909,"end":66.488,"text":"遭到對方吸收簽署這個投降承諾書甚至穿著我們國軍的軍服拍攝影片配合敵方來做宣傳那過去因為法律上沒有明確的一個規範讓這些實質上屬於叛國的這種行為最後可能只是受到侵犯"},{"start":67.669,"end":94.523,"text":"這不僅僅是我們國軍榮譽的一個踐踏更嚴重打擊部隊的一個士氣甚至危害到我們國家的一個安全那我想請教副部長從國防部過去所發現或是我們辦理過的這個案例來看中共通常是藉由什麼樣的一個管道和手段來誘使我們的官兵向其表示效忠在這個樣態上有沒有什麼樣的一個變化"},{"start":95.848,"end":117.07,"text":"目前來說他大部分會藉由在台灣的在台協力者或是發展軍中的組織來吸收或是用利誘的方式來做相關的滲透的一個手段我們在台灣裡面的內部有人跟他們相互配合就對了"},{"start":118.321,"end":134.235,"text":"他會用利益吸收的一個方式來進行對比較低階的一些幹部來進行一些利誘或者吸收的一些手段那這方面我們國防部有沒有什麼樣的一個作為想要來喝止"},{"start":138.01,"end":157.374,"text":"委員好 我是政策局副局長 跟委員做報告有關於這一部分 當然第一個我們就是要做對官兵一個教育 那持續以來我們做的教育的結果 官兵對針對這些被滲透或甚至有限維密案件的一個檢舉率已經到百分之八十幾 甚至我們運用他可能在資金流向或是他個人有不在情形 我們的"},{"start":158.074,"end":178.213,"text":"在考核層面掌握到之後我們自己勾結出來整體來講有九成五左右所以說官兵一個自主發現或自主反應這些不當事情的話也相對的一個提升但後續我們現在來講就針對人員的查核層面人員的查核層面與其我們每一次"},{"start":179.214,"end":197.427,"text":"針對相關的案例太樣都會檢診來做一個滾動修正來納為最基層的最基層的一年級來他們做一個私教一個依據當然這次的修法我相信也對我們來講未來對懲治這些相關不當也有一定的益處好"},{"start":199.108,"end":224.222,"text":"為了要有效的喝止這類型的情況繼續發生那嚴重危害我們國家的安全也避免說一再發生的可能性並且能夠徹底的來杜絕這個未戰先降的這種心態我想這次的修法確實是有其必要性那也希望說能夠透過我們這次的修法能夠確定"},{"start":225.923,"end":245.18,"text":"徹底的來改善這個情況的繼續發生這個我想我們後續還是請國防部繼續的加強另外我想跟副部長您來討論在上個月傳出馬防部大規模涉入詐騙案的情況涉案人數有超過60人以上"},{"start":245.8,"end":271.887,"text":"我想這不單只是一個詐欺的案件也是一個嚴重的國安的警訊尤其外島地區也是我們防衛的第一線必須更加慎重我們看到這個案件已經交由檢方來偵辦但這件事情據傳持續一到兩年的時間同時涉案人數也很多為什麼我們內部的這個管控還有預警的機制沒有察覺到國防部是否已經有初步的一個檢討"},{"start":273.127,"end":299.164,"text":"請教副部長第一個部分是這個部分我們已經有加強宣導來讓官兵加強他的一個法制以及涉嫌詐欺相關的一個法令的一個宣導那第二個事情我們也全盤前導昨天國防部有召開相關的一個檢討會對於後面的一個防制的做法會做一個精進以及這一個防制的一個做法來做"},{"start":299.864,"end":323.181,"text":"好那根據我們國防部訂定的這個國軍官兵詐欺案件懲罰參考的一個基準表應該會針對官兵涉案的這個情節輕重給予適當的處分那我想還是請教副部長就這個案子來看我們可能有多少官兵會面臨到汰除的一個懲罰是否能夠有進一步的這個說明部分"},{"start":323.821,"end":346.593,"text":"因為這一個整個懲罰跟檢討還在進行當中那有具體的部分我們會到時候跟委員去做個說明好 那接續就是想請教這個兵力問題馬防部是我們防衛的最前線雖然國防部說會在兼顧這個防區戰備還有官兵權益之下由馬防部內部自行來做調整那不會"},{"start":347.674,"end":375.529,"text":"使我們的戰力發生有空隙的問題但現有的一個防區內有超過60位以上的官兵被調查面臨太阻的話實在是對我們的整個戰力會造成一個非常嚴重的缺口的問題那我想請教副部長對於馬防部這些人力的缺口是要用什麼樣的方式在最短時間之內來補齊那對於我們防區戰力的影響程度又會是如何"},{"start":376.149,"end":393.926,"text":"第一個先向委員說明就是幾位官兵的懲處要等整個檢討報告確認之後再決定他懲處的一個基準跟類別那第二個部分是目前馬防部在整個戰備部隊的輪值上面是沒有產生問題的"},{"start":394.867,"end":421.382,"text":"他可以試圖做一些人力調整所以對於外島的一個防護上面目前來說沒有任何的下降還是內部調整嗎對所以他目前因為我們的戰備部隊的輪子有一定的一個基礎那這是涉案的人員他不一定是輪子我們相關的戰備那我們會按照這個戰備的等級提升才檢討人員那目前戰備部隊硬處上面沒有任何的問題"},{"start":422.432,"end":446.939,"text":"好 我們針對馬防部的這個案子是危機啦那也是一個轉機我們必須利用這次的機會徹底來整頓我們基層這個部隊的一個風氣那部隊裡面有害群之馬我們應該要嚴懲就要嚴懲但對於絕大多數兢兢業業所在第一線的官兵我們還是要給予最大的支持我希望我們國防部對於這部分一定要重視好 以上 謝謝謝謝委員的指導"}]}},{"id":"166958","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166958","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f543490a09f7461a2733324c55f2e48b25a9336b50e104cbbb44dbb0adfc082709ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"09:37:47 - 09:46:48","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員陳秀寳等22人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「大學法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員柯志恩等21人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員翁曉玲等 16 人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員林月琴等17人擬具「大學法第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T09:37:47+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T09:46:48+08:00","duration":541,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":0.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.57096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.156593750000001,"end":8.215343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.99096875,"end":13.480343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.403468750000002,"end":46.049093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.20096875,"end":94.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.03159375,"end":77.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.01346875,"end":85.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.47596875,"end":140.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.04221875,"end":117.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.71784375000001,"end":146.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.70909375000002,"end":142.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.09659375,"end":152.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.49659375000002,"end":166.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.67159375,"end":185.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.79534375,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.21284375000002,"end":210.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.11471875,"end":193.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.72534375,"end":200.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.84221875,"end":242.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.40159375000002,"end":220.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.66909375,"end":237.12471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.81596875000002,"end":269.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.37034375,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.86659375,"end":272.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.06471875,"end":271.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.68471875,"end":285.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.02596875,"end":275.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.79659375,"end":291.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.45034375,"end":287.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.78284375000004,"end":292.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.81659375000004,"end":292.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.86284375,"end":314.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.97346875,"end":316.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.00284375,"end":326.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.47909375,"end":318.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.30909375000005,"end":379.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.67221875,"end":351.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.52846875,"end":409.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.80659375000005,"end":423.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.08284375000005,"end":424.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.01096875,"end":438.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.71784375000004,"end":444.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.04159375,"end":445.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.85159375,"end":446.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.07096875,"end":447.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.12971875000005,"end":467.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.66971875,"end":448.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.53596875000005,"end":469.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.94909375000003,"end":470.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.72534375000004,"end":470.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.75909375000003,"end":471.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.80971875000006,"end":473.37471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.13409375000003,"end":482.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.58534375000005,"end":476.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.87971875000005,"end":482.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.68971875000005,"end":485.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.66409375,"end":485.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.64284375000005,"end":493.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.14034375000006,"end":488.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.27534375000005,"end":488.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.61221875,"end":493.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.89471875000004,"en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謝謝主席 有請次長委員好"},{"start":14.008,"end":37.233,"text":"市長早安我想今天其實我們不是要談某一個大學法的條文怎麼修那是在少子化跟資源的失衡的一個校園治理的一個壓力同時發生的同時那我們要期待怎麼樣將這個所謂的大學他們的未來要扮演什麼樣的一個公共的角色其實這個部分我相信應該是更重要的一件事情"},{"start":37.973,"end":55.439,"text":"那我想這段時間不管是學生團體也好或者教師團體也好其實他們陸陸續續提出對大學法的一個修法改革的一個期待那我相信這個教育部應該也都收到了但是學生對於所謂的這個校園自主參與的治理另外呢他們也感受到有一些不滿"},{"start":56.179,"end":76.534,"text":"我相信這個部分其實我們也應該要來正視但是我們同時也看到教育部也多次的提到目前的大學法之所以討論困難當然也是因為不是不重視而是不希望是用所謂的議題式或片面式的這樣子的一個方式去處理"},{"start":77.054,"end":94.314,"text":"那应该要回到所谓的大学的定位还有公司力的学校的一个差异还有校内治理的一个所谓的权责上的一个整体的设计那我相信其实大家都还在想尽办法但是我想如果大家只是把这个焦点放在"},{"start":95.563,"end":119.277,"text":"所謂的學生比例學生代表的比例上面或者是某一種治理的一個機制但忽略掉了整個整體的氛圍包含我剛剛其實有提到的像是少子化或者是我們的高教的經費的結構等等的一些現實反而會讓很多的制度更僵化我想這一點應該大家都同意所以接下來我想請教一下我們的次長"},{"start":120.037,"end":140.308,"text":"可以跟我們說清楚現在我們的教育部除了對所謂的個別的修法的一個主張的回應以外是不是已經有一個比較整體精進的一個措施的構想那目前如何要給學校彈性的同時也要避免所謂的行政權力過度的集中那我們的教育部現在能夠先做什麼請教"},{"start":140.808,"end":156.533,"text":"是跟委員報告其實在94年大學法修正的時候已經在人才的培育組織的結構還有財務甚至包含整個學生資助參與都有做大幅度的一個開放的彈性"},{"start":157.393,"end":185.392,"text":"其实在教育部我刚刚也跟林沛祥文报告我教育部本来从来不希望大学穿同一套的衣服所以在目前的大学法的架构底下其实在治理结构公式当然不一样那有些基本的结构比如说以大学来讲校长在行政的一个领导校务会议在重要政策的一个审议学生跟老师的角色怎么在这两块之间能够做适当的参与跟监督我想这样的"},{"start":186.272,"end":208.534,"text":"体制是很清楚那我们在跟大学沟通的时候大学也认同这样子的趋势是不可避免的那现在主要的一个需要来处理的就是说大学比较担心的是不确定性因为毕竟一个新的制度要做推广所以我们现在教育部尝试的就是把同学的意见跟大学校长再做进一步的磨合"},{"start":208.934,"end":236.526,"text":"取最大的工學術但是我在想在正式修法之前我們到底教育部還有哪一些工具是可以先行改善這個學生他參與跟校園治理的部分如果有這樣子的工具那不管是所謂的這個行政的指引或者是我們在補助的一個條件還有這個評鑑的一個指標是不是也能夠鼓勵學生來參與校務的一個品質而不是著重在因為每個學校的狀況不一樣嘛"},{"start":236.906,"end":263.838,"text":"而不是着重在所谓的一定的学生的比例上面这个部分是不是已经有掌握了有这个部分我们先前也跟几个学生团体有释放过类似的讯息其实现在青年署跟平常跟我们学生组织的一个互动是非常密切的那我们也有一个有关于促进学生自治参与的一个要点里面包含对于学生会的一些空间人事经费"},{"start":264.538,"end":291.018,"text":"甚至学生希望说能够参与学校会议这些相关的一个比例这是在不涉及所谓的修法的条件这下一步我们之后可以透过一些政策工具我们就可以来协助学生先落实学生组织落实那如果有共识再把它提升到修法位置或是同步进行我想这都是具体的方式所以这个是已经可以在做的事情那有没有一些比较具体的目前的成果应该这么讲"},{"start":291.838,"end":321.298,"text":"目前有掌握吗是 我们上次也提到比如说未来的校长临选是不是让学生代表能够参与这一块我们也会考量透过像我们一些私校讲补助或是我们的一些高校生跟一些公共性参与这一块我们就会把它做要求去引导学校先来做目前45所大学里面有27所学校事实上已经也有45所里面有27所对 有学生代表参与在里面了那像这种不用修法只要透过政策引导"},{"start":321.658,"end":340.479,"text":"那當然這部 下一部我們會跟同學這邊積極的一起來跟大學做努力好 那我想呢次長我過去其實曾多次的提到就是我們的這個高校治理的一些困境那麼除了制度之外其實還有一個非常大的一個結構性的一個問題就是其實高度是不平等的我所謂的這個高度不平等包含"},{"start":341.32,"end":358.275,"text":"文學院社會學科在少子化的一個產業的導向之下往往他們在招生的時候都成為所謂的重災區就是招生的重災區那我想這個高教的競爭的經費其實他的占比過高就很容易形成所謂的強者很強"},{"start":358.996,"end":379.558,"text":"那中後段的學校他們其實有時候為了生存或者是他們被迫可能為了生存我要繼續活下去不然我的學生要何去何從那這個時候其實學校可能就會把他們的校園來出租變成是壓縮到他們的一個學習環境的一個空間這個目前我們怎麼樣來回應這些所謂的治理的壓力"},{"start":381.115,"end":403.753,"text":"根文報告其實人文跟理工事實上是我們教育的兩大支柱博雅教育跟理科教育所以教育部的政策不會去做任何的偏頗比如說我舉個最實際的例子在我們核定高教生跟裡面有個特色理念研究中心我們甚至為了人文社會去"},{"start":405.374,"end":423.216,"text":"还有个先导企业计划去辅导他能够来申请而已所以这一块就是我们对人文社会的努力未来教育部的政策一定也都会以兼顾的方式来进行至于在后段学校中后段学校可能目前面对少子化的压力他有些校舍闲置的状况"},{"start":424.147,"end":447.446,"text":"教育部的审核其实是在不影响既有学生的一个学习环境他才可能跟教育部提案去做一些要出租或是其他的再利用所以教育部在审核的过程中还是会去关注到我们有没有一些比较具体的比方说我们整体的一个高教政策或者是我们在这个经费的制度上怎么去回应这种现象是有没有比较具体的一些"},{"start":448.186,"end":472.619,"text":"是 其實以部長來講部長他現在其實有請高級的老師去做幾件事情第一件事情就是說在去盤點目前我們對於在大學法不抵觸大學法不需要修法的情況之下還有哪一些政策跟法令我們可以做鬆綁什麼時候這個盤點的結果會出爐大概我們現在已經在進行鬆綁如果可以的話我們"},{"start":474.215,"end":490.425,"text":"在我們可以持續的進行但是我們可以先把目前的進度我們盤點情況跟委員做說明給委員一個說明這沒有問題所以近期之內先給我一個說明可以嗎那第二個就是在經費的部分我們在這次特別爭取到200億的高校"},{"start":491.846,"end":516.077,"text":"人才发展的预算其实一样有65亿是给公立公私立大学做整个销务精进来协助他们在经费上得一个益助我想这些都是我们目前有在做处理的好我想大家都理解这个学生对于制度改革的一些期待但是其实我们在讨论这些所谓的校园治理的时候其实我们方向也是要往前进但更深层"},{"start":516.397,"end":542.266,"text":"所谓的这个高校上面的一些结构性的一些问题包含我刚刚所提到的就是我们偏科偏重或者是我们的少子化的一些问题其实我们应该要善用现在就能够动用的一些政策跟工具来帮助我们的高校继续往前走好那在这里也非常谢谢次长的这个补充那如果有进行的那个刚刚所说的那些盘点的一些资料再麻烦提供给我们的办公室好谢谢次长好谢谢主席谢谢"}]}},{"id":"166954","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166954","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f543cb9707452d94209f324c55f2e48b25a9336b50e104cbbb44f82bc5d892225b265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:15:59 - 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Tahovecahe等19人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員林月琴等17人擬具「大學法第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T09:15:59+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T09:24:31+08:00","duration":512,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.501593750000001,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.222843750000003,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.724718750000001,"end":16.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.83784375,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.27221875,"end":22.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.301593750000002,"end":28.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.515968750000003,"end":74.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.66284375,"end":60.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.56784375000001,"end":81.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.85784375,"end":104.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.70659375000001,"end":112.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.75596875000001,"end":121.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.37471875000001,"end":122.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.42534375000001,"end":122.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.49284375,"end":122.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.54346875,"end":122.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.56034375,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.96534375,"end":124.70346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.19284375000001,"end":142.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.82721875000001,"end":149.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.51471875000001,"end":144.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.64471875,"end":161.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.96346875,"end":185.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.82471875000002,"end":189.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.57096875000002,"end":212.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.81659375,"end":212.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.40284375000002,"end":222.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.18596875,"end":223.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.12659375,"end":234.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.49221875,"end":255.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.97409375,"end":275.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.65596875,"end":267.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.25784375,"end":278.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.40971875,"end":276.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.94096875,"end":293.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.94284375,"end":326.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.03471875,"end":331.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.11409375,"end":337.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.71659375,"end":345.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.03596875,"end":359.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.27846875,"end":375.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.92159375,"end":376.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.96784375000004,"end":377.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.14909375,"end":383.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.90346875,"end":424.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.12159375000005,"end":419.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.48784375,"end":424.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.12909375000004,"end":425.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.14596875,"end":426.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.96846875,"end":428.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.21721875000003,"end":428.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.23409375,"end":469.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.11784375,"end":487.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.92096875000004,"end":488.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.54534375000003,"end":489.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.24971875000006,"end":509.20034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.44096875,"end":509.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.20034375000006,"end":509.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.26784375000005,"end":509.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.24221875,"end":512.1028437499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":14.814,"text":"林佩祥委員質詢好謝謝主席有請朱次長請朱次長"},{"start":21.079,"end":41.61,"text":"黃院長蘇市長今天我們談的是大學法但是我想談大學法修法一個核心的問題也就是這個法可以修也該修但是不能用一體適用的方式來修本席從2005也就是民國94年大學法上一次修那個修訂之後"},{"start":42.29,"end":68.099,"text":"整整教了20年的書我在公立大學教過我也在私立大學教過但是這十多年來老實講高校環境已經有大幅度的改變少子化的衝擊大學退場的機制的啟動甚至公私立大學的經營壓力差距不斷擴大學生對於校務參與校園民主的期待也跟過去完全不同但是我想要請教教育部一個最根本的問題"},{"start":69.039,"end":80.739,"text":"在於治理結構經費來源跟公共責任高度不同的情況之下真的還能適用同一套法律架構來規範所有的公私立大學嗎"},{"start":81.946,"end":103.803,"text":"今天有一份正式声明是涵盖全国百余所大专院校的四大大学校院协进会发表的正式声明他们态度非常清楚他们支持高教的改革但是反对粗糙僵化用一体试用的方式来去做修法"},{"start":104.793,"end":121.318,"text":"我想請教教育部一句話,你們有沒有真的聽進高校現場的集體警訊呢?我先這樣問一個第一個重點,教育部是否承認公私立大學在本職上就有存在所謂的治理的差異?"},{"start":122.498,"end":151.102,"text":"是 谢谢委员教育部非常认同委员讲的说我们不能让所有大学去穿同一套衣服这也是在过去20年大学法修正以来教育部一直在做的从人才的培育到经费的运用到整个公私立性质的定性当然都完全不一样以私立大学来讲它是私人心血它是要提升公共性那国立大学基本上它的预算资源其实大部分来自于国家"},{"start":151.522,"end":177.183,"text":"那當然在一些社會責任的落實以及在一些治理的彈性上它的一個角色也會不一樣以教育部角色就會不同老實講公立大學仰賴的是政府的預算涉及公共資源跟受高度監督但私立大學則是受到董事會的結構跟財務壓力它影響極深但是現行大學法對於兩個治理的責任跟權責限限是長期採取高度一致的規範"},{"start":177.924,"end":184.565,"text":"那我想請問教育部在未來修法是否有必要在法律層級明確區分公私立大學的治理設計"},{"start":185.987,"end":214.91,"text":"跟文人報告目前如果以大學來講的話比較屬於組織結構或是人才培育教師權益這塊因為這個跟公司比較不會有太大差異的會在大學法規定但是屬於董事會的權責私校的財務經營這塊會在私立學校法去做規範所以在部裡面來講我們確實是有向委員老師講這部大學法等於是我們高等教育的基本法"},{"start":215.27,"end":223.269,"text":"如果在制度上面差異不大的話那未來私立大學要用什麼條件來去承擔與公立大學同樣的制度跟成本呢是"},{"start":225.168,"end":251.826,"text":"如果说因为现在即便我刚刚委员报告以人才培育来讲虽然是统一规定在大学法但是目前教育部其实从我们学位授业法大学法里面开放一些相关的资源整合事实上是公司力都已经可以各自依照自己的特色去做处理了这块其实教育部做的只是原则性的规范很多时候有时候校长会误会教育部有规定但事实上教育部是开放让学校以学位授业来讲"},{"start":255.868,"end":277.856,"text":"我認為教育部應該要主動來去區分公私立大學的治理架構我覺得這是未來因為公私立大學兩邊接受的壓力是不一樣的而且以資源來講公立大學當然比私立大學高得多但是如果以公立大學的規範直接規範私立大學的話這一點也不公平而且這樣會導致說很多"},{"start":278.988,"end":293.187,"text":"很多没有必要发生的恶况发生所以这件事情我想请教一部特地本席在这边特地把它提出来因为这个问题是未来很严重的然后第二个问题我也想请教为什么修法方向是越管越细啊"},{"start":294.409,"end":310.429,"text":"國際的高教治理趨勢是國家定原則定品質保障而不是鉅細靡遺的管組織跟權限但是這次修法的方向卻是用一套治理架構來去治理所有大學老實說少子化AI衝擊國際競爭加劇的時候"},{"start":313.132,"end":324.864,"text":"政府給大學的目前從大學法我們看到來講並不是彈性而是更多的限制我就想就教育教育部這樣的修法真的能夠讓大學來因應未來的競爭嗎"},{"start":327.076,"end":353.083,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員提到很關鍵的問題就是治理角色的部分我們以大學法裡面目前提到的校長遴選其實公立大學校長遴選的一個框架是有在大學法很明確的規定但是私立大學校長遴選則是由董事會他來制定規定主要就是考量董事會的角色他在私校經營是有他必須負擔相對的責任但是我們也應該給他一定的一個經營空間來找到他們認為適合的校長"},{"start":354.403,"end":377.169,"text":"这就已经有就是两套所以我们目前希望是跟世纪大学来沟通是说如果可以的话校长临选我们让学生跟老师的意见可以适当的进来但是那个临选方式不见得要套用目前公立大学的这一个临选委员会的组成的结构这个教育部我们有注意到世纪大学一直在跟我们提这一点我在这边最后要强调"},{"start":378.226,"end":406.371,"text":"我們支持高校改革但是我堅決反對一體適用反對一體適用不等於反對改革而且我要求詐欺性的治理也不代表抗拒進步可是這一點因為我們要因地我們常知道因地失財因地質疑那國立跟私立本來就不一樣而真正危險的我認為不是監督而是用改革的知名去行方便治理支持"},{"start":407.071,"end":423.946,"text":"我想我刚刚有提过第一个是否愿意区分公私立大学的自己架构第二个是否愿意放弃一体适用的修法思维第三个是否愿意展开发起公听会启动实质对话而非仓促立法呢"},{"start":425.168,"end":439.713,"text":"委員這些我們都非常認同我們會來努力好老師說大學好國家才會好我想這是目前全部人在場人的共識尤其是未來的人才就是今天的學生那如果要我們國力真的增強"},{"start":440.253,"end":469.443,"text":"我们现在看到很多不只是少子化之外我们也是在遇到AI的冲击国际的冲击各方面的冲击如果我们今天在大学法上面只是单纯的让治理更方便而不是从根本来去进步大学的制度的话这是对于未来国家的竞争力一个非常严重的打击本席希望说本席希望说大学好国家才会好国家才会强但前提是政府不要把大学修到动弹不得"},{"start":470.388,"end":487.902,"text":"非常认同也谢谢委员指导我想公司力自己结构不同我们一定会特别关注那属于师生权益保障学生的公共参与我想这一块公司就没有不一样那这个部分我们也会来跟大学沟通以渐进适当的方式来进行谢谢委员因为一个大学里面有很多主体"},{"start":488.682,"end":509.147,"text":"师 生 职员甚至还有校友这些主体如果没有用一个公开一个公听会或者是直接对话的方式让每个群体都知道说大学法到底是怎么回事未来弊端无穷我希望今天本席的质询能够让教育部听到这是代表全体高叫的声音谢谢委员知道"}]}},{"id":"166956","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166956","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5433b18d952732fea4d324c55f2e48b25a9336b50e104cbbb4479b5a1982509e2505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:24:42 - 09:37:29","影片長度":"00:12:47","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員陳秀寳等22人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「大學法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員柯志恩等21人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員翁曉玲等 16 人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員林月琴等17人擬具「大學法第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T09:24:42+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T09:37:29+08:00","duration":767,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":6.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.52284375,"end":12.062843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.73784375,"end":31.789718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.02159375,"end":34.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.713468750000004,"end":82.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.76909375000001,"end":102.00659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.14159375000001,"end":102.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.86721875,"end":160.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.72721875000002,"end":230.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.06659375,"end":237.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.74909375000001,"end":238.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.79534375000003,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.41784375,"end":251.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.24846875000003,"end":262.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.03659375,"end":261.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.71159375,"end":261.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.43721875,"end":264.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.49596875000003,"end":267.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.51284375,"end":265.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.14534375,"end":269.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.94659375000003,"end":304.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.26596875,"end":305.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.43034375,"end":311.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.25659375000004,"end":313.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.70346875,"end":316.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.53846875,"end":326.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.82784375,"end":337.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.72096875,"end":339.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.38721875000005,"end":339.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.69096875,"end":358.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.04659375,"end":360.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.70034375,"end":370.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.06596875,"end":382.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.38471875000005,"end":389.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.78034375000004,"end":391.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.75034375,"end":394.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.12971875000005,"end":395.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.71596875,"end":402.11159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.36096875000004,"end":404.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.79909375000005,"end":404.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.84534375000004,"end":416.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.07971875000004,"end":421.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.70346875,"end":430.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.70284375,"end":426.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.83284375000005,"end":435.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.42284375,"end":435.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.47346875000005,"end":439.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.86096875000004,"end":440.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.70471875000004,"end":445.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.40034375000005,"end":488.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.37221875000006,"end":493.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.77659375,"end":507.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.71534375000005,"end":515.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.99721875,"end":514.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.6340937499999,"end":561.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.1203437500001,"end":562.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.8459687500001,"end":575.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.0928437499999,"end":576.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.7509687500001,"end":579.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.65346875,"end":580.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.3915937500001,"end":587.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.65659375,"end":587.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.9897187500001,"end":590.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.2634687500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谢谢赵伟我们现在请朱次长委员好次长好刚刚您配下委员特别提到了希望公司利益会有不一样那我个人认为对于这一点来说是很多人的期待但是我觉得做不到为什么因为每个人都是领教育部的钱光是教育部的补助就钳制了所有所谓的独立自主的一个发挥的一个空间这应该是一个存在的事实吧"},{"start":33.603,"end":55.35,"text":"目前包括你们所有的计划当中即使私立学校它必须要承担最大的一个责任因为它的收费都是来自于这个学费但是因为要拿到教育部不管是任何的一些的补助升更 卓越等等都有你们的criteria如果说你不要去遵循的话你就拿不到这些钱所以像所有的台湾大学就叫教育部大学没有任何的特色"},{"start":56.03,"end":82.438,"text":"所以说呢这也是一个存在的事实那我们今天来讨论这个大学法我说实在的身为大学校长曾经的这个我们的郑校长应该是今天来接受备询的因为他最了解因为他有自己的实务经验就很可惜今天没有看到他除了这点可惜之外呢我也觉得非常的可惜就是我们这个会期所提到的每一个教育的法案包括大学法营养五三专法偏向条例都没有行政院办"},{"start":82.978,"end":101.615,"text":"所以说这个没有行政院版包括我们的学习方法也是被逼出来的当没有行政院版的时候其实我们在这边的讨论很难有任何一个定调然后我昨天也看到你昨天10点02分我们接到教育部给我们的你们的报告然后我真的觉得你们的联络人非常的辛苦"},{"start":102.276,"end":122.568,"text":"然后到了十点多才有这份报告表示一修又再修就跟我们大学法一样已经二十年没有大修了所以我们期望能够看到一个不管是学生或是老师比较能够具体的一个回应就我刚刚非常仔细看的次长你刚念了很多由于很多的法你就是只要是不是太"},{"start":123.408,"end":140.266,"text":"关系太多你就会觉得表达教育部的立场然后呢真的大家比较关切的你就把学校立场跟学生立场分别并层但是我还是不知道他这个教育部的态度在哪里那我也知道四个大学协议会昨天分别发表了一个声明嘛对不对"},{"start":140.746,"end":160.478,"text":"然后呢我们1月23、24两天有大学校长会议嘛很多事情来说的话不用等到那个时候因为这部大学法从我2016年当立委的时候都已经在讨论的到现在为止所讨论的条文那个学生会会长那个已经不晓得换了几个了讨论的问题还是一样我们就一一来去看"},{"start":161.869,"end":189.805,"text":"前面我还是要提到的整个的诉求点还是来自锁定两个校园民主跟学生实质参与因为学生的诉求认为我们都是属于90%都是学生学生是成年人他们当然有权利来做公共事务的一个检讨但是呢有反对者认为说这些部分来说的话因为牵涉的分文很多可能不想让学生承担太多的角色你这两个对于所谓的校园民主自主"},{"start":190.265,"end":219.24,"text":"这个如果在整个背后的哲理没有办法脉络没有把它清楚的话我们永远在这个角色上面很难一来去看嘛我们先看我们学生的校务会议的比例嘛过去来说嘛已经非常多对不对这个次长你到目前为止也没有办法给我们说教育部也不敢给我们定一个标准存在嘛你们现在的标准在哪里政治大学是八分之一是目前全国最多的但是呢很多学校其实八分之一如果你学校没有社会科学学院的话其实很难做得到的"},{"start":219.56,"end":230.054,"text":"那这个怎么办所以目前为止你们的比例在哪里有10%15%有1%到底交易部的态度在哪里这是我说的嘛你们都并层你们态度在哪里数字在哪里"},{"start":231.087,"end":259.354,"text":"跟委員報告目前大學法規定是校會代表是十分之一這是十分之一那在先前溝通過大學校長是希望用漸進的方式來做因為像剛剛委員有提到的每個學校學生支持參與的狀況其實不太一樣如果一下子把他拉到一定所以教育部的態度是希望維持十分之一我們是希望能夠漸進的提高我們非常肯認你從2016年就十分之一我到現在20哇塞"},{"start":260.275,"end":268.79,"text":"2026的十年了几年了现在目前是希望以八分之一目前为止只有政大做到而已所以说你们会提到八分之一吗"},{"start":270.02,"end":294.12,"text":"所以你们现在就用渐进的方法来解决这个诉求就对了我只告诉你这就是我刚刚所提到的嘛很多你没有办法提到的部分里面你就两岸并层我还是不晓得教育部的态度即使是学生希望能够提到更高你们现在说用渐层的方法因为考虑到学校方嘛对不对那教育部就是躲在学校方后面或是怎么样你们还是不给我们一个部分那学生吃着等"},{"start":294.6,"end":304.788,"text":"有没有设置上限有没有办法在校务会议的提案当中至少一名学生代表这件事情你们态度是什么这是学联会特别提出来你们态度是什么"},{"start":306.499,"end":326.748,"text":"我个人也跟学生大改正或是学生团也沟通过我们是教育部立场是支持学生能够更充分的一个空间来参与学校的应对每个人都是充分空间这无庸置疑很明确的具体的部分消费会议的提案至少一名学生代表联署教育部的态度是什么我们问教育部的态度"},{"start":327.861,"end":354.048,"text":"目前我們是剛才提到我們希望能夠跟校長們溝通我是希望能夠漸進的提高那提高以1%來作為一個沒有我說提案我剛已經進入到第三個了你們剛漸進我提到的那我剛說提案呢提案是至少一名學生連署然後對校長遴選至少納入大學學生代表至少兩名這是學生的意見你們教育部的態度是什麼我沒有正反我不需要你們都給我正反"},{"start":354.568,"end":381.855,"text":"我的態度我就質問教育部的態度目前為止是怎麼樣目前大學針對提案的部分有三人可以提案 五人提案甚至要經過議題小組提案都有那我們也期待說讓學生有獨立的提案權所以你們在這個大學法的修法裡面你們不會調列出你們的態度是什麼你們就是表達你們的希望慢慢呈布但是你不會把它具體的到底多少放在大學法的條例當中不會"},{"start":382.635,"end":404.412,"text":"我們有跟同學做說明說我們希望讓同學生有獨立的提案權這塊是教育部目前在跟大學有沒有會不會入法到條文裡面如果溝通出來有結果在入法還沒有溝通出來啊跟校長們還在做討論跟大學還在做討論但是教育部的立場是希望讓學生有獨立的提案權這個就是我2016年那時候你應該是高教室司長吧我不知道"},{"start":405.313,"end":416.091,"text":"答案一模一样当你提升到次长的时候答案还是一样然后呢有关于校长临选的至少两名的这样子的学生代表的话这个部分也还是继续沟通"},{"start":417.353,"end":439.616,"text":"這個部分我目前以大學45所公立大學來講裡面其實已經有27所是已經有學生代表在裡面所以再一步我們目前立場也是以希望在公立大學的臨選委員會讓學生代表能夠有至少一名這個是我們努力的方向但是到目前為止還是不會入法就對了目前還在溝通階段如果"},{"start":440.857,"end":465.362,"text":"校長們因為在2023年校長會他們會去做一些討論好吧 那就在場的委員現在是第11屆到第12屆我絕對相信這個問題還是在繼續溝通當中周老委你排到這個部分就是2016年結果是一模一樣的所以我也相信次長你已經有在做一個溝通但是就是誠如我剛剛所提到的校方跟學校方他們在對於所謂的自主的這個部分兩個就是完全不同的"},{"start":465.862,"end":493.343,"text":"逻辑脉络所以永远没有一个对焦那我们当然也希望你有更大的一个空间不管从哪一个角度来去看都有个更大的空间可是学生不断去换老师还是留在学校勿换心仪学生都已经不一样了老师还是抱持着校方还是抱持着相同的一个方式这一点到目前为止如果教育部没有办法明定这个部分来的话那我觉得大学法到目前我们讨论起来真的是讨论心酸的次长"},{"start":493.863,"end":512.603,"text":"跟委員報告我個人沒有那麼悲觀的意思是說我覺得這幾年因為委員的努力同學的爭取其實大學已經有關注到這一點包括我們剛剛提到的學生出席校務會代表比例其實學校單線是不確定性因為它每個學校的學制環境不同有深入問題的"},{"start":513.063,"end":530.621,"text":"当然是 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我到時候就跟你討錢啊"},{"start":726.492,"end":746.973,"text":"因为教育部没有办法所以你必须要要求其他跨部会来做否则你会排挤到我们的计划这是我们去年做在这地方审议的有没有办法做到如果说你们没有办法请别的单位跨部会来支援这个部分即使有这么大的一个跟我们高教人才培育可以的这是属于我们大家所期望的还是会落空好不好好"},{"start":747.674,"end":767.37,"text":"所以我們希望這個合定計畫的一個合定不管是從哪個地方趕快把它落實我覺得這才是一個很大的點是還有我要再次強調這個是那個這個是連續型的所以這個錢是可以繼續用的不要再告訴我藍白黨預算沒這件事好不好謝謝 謝謝委員知道好 謝謝柯思恩委員"}]}},{"id":"166953","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166953","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f54329adff87c27146e8067a41bab2fb0fea336b50e104cbbb440cd442c3dfdba8065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"09:14:50 - 09:17:24","影片長度":"00:02:34","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員李坤城等 19 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謝謝主席這次若海空軍刑法第24條的修法重點其實就是要強調現役軍人本來就負有保衛國家忠誠國家的義務任何降敵或對敵表態效忠的行為都必須要嚴肅面對當現役軍人出現對敵人宣誓效忠或用各種方法向敵方作出表態時會直接傷害軍隊士氣部隊紀律戰備與作戰能力"},{"start":34.241,"end":58.828,"text":"最後影響的就是整個國家的安全所以這次的修法我有三個重點第一個加重不盡其應盡之責而降敵的刑度若是敵軍來了該抵抗不抵抗該盡力防衛卻沒有盡力反而直接投降這種行為違反軍人的職責因此我們把原本的刑度從一年以上七年以下提高到三年以上十年以下"},{"start":59.548,"end":86.825,"text":"第二把這類降敵行為的預備犯陰謀犯也納入處罰因為很多的風險不是戰爭當下才出現而是在戰事發生之前就有人開始串聯計劃準備一旦真的開打後果會更加的嚴重也更難補救所以這次的修法也把預備陰謀納入規範提前把風險擋住第三新針對敵人表態效忠的犯罪類型與刑責"},{"start":89.065,"end":113.3,"text":"現役軍人如果用言語動作文字圖像電磁記錄網路方式或其他方法向敵人作出效忠表示單靠陸海空軍懲罰罰處分嚇阻與懲罰效果都不夠所以我們增訂新的規定只要有意讓敵方窒息的效忠表示不論直接或間接都要負刑責處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":114.12,"end":137.836,"text":"這次的修法絕對不是在限縮言論自由也不是在控管批評政府或表達立場現役軍人不是一般身份本來就負有忠誠與保密的義務當你是刻意讓敵方知道的方式去表態效忠這就已經不是表達意見而是破壞國家安全的行為國家當然必須用刑法做出規範我們希望藉由提高刑責補上預謀"},{"start":140.177,"end":150.228,"text":"而預備於陰謀的漏洞並把對敵效忠的表態納入刑法規範之中以更加有效的去確保我們國家的安全 以上 謝謝好 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細指立法委員行使職權不當增加其本人"},{"start":29.605,"end":56.154,"text":"或其關係人金錢物品或其他財產上之價值第二十條利益迴避原則立法委員行使職權所牽涉或辦理之事務因其作為獲取前條所規定之利益者應行迴避第二十二條立法委員行使職權就有利益迴避情勢之意案應迴避審議及表決那我想這件事情就是應該是大家要自律"},{"start":58.655,"end":82.187,"text":"剛剛其實很多人都已經從不管是國際的最新的報告或者是法條的問題題我想補充的事情是現在陳昭志委員不在請大家告訴陳昭志委員不要再拿當年賴立委還有蕭立委連署的法案來說賴總統支持代理運模"},{"start":83.268,"end":111.848,"text":"代理運母過去這十年改變非常的大根據聯合國剛剛很多委員講到的報告歐洲已經有越來越多的國家從開放變成全面禁止連亞洲曾經是代孕大國的印度也開始禁止商業代孕只限所謂的利他型的代孕然後還有剛剛好幾位委員都提到的聯合國大會去年的報告關於暴力侵害婦女"},{"start":112.508,"end":129.617,"text":"兒童及其原因和後果的一個大會中的一個報告就是已經談到代孕潛在的會造來的很多的傷害然後對婦女地位的影響所以行政院版就是賴總統支持的版本"},{"start":130.277,"end":145.957,"text":"就是代孕脫鉤就是優先處理最有共識的單身女性跟女同志配偶所以請陳昭志委員也請大家告訴他不要再拿當年的部分來說賴總統這是什麼賴總統就是支持"},{"start":148.027,"end":163.604,"text":"現階段我們絕對是有共識先行單身女性跟女同志配偶可以有子宮的單身女性跟女同志配偶使用人工協助升職另外民眾黨版的 剛剛大家已經講到"},{"start":165.886,"end":184.693,"text":"區區9條而且沒有經過性別影響評估據我的瞭解行政院版有在行政院的性別平等委員會中經過詳細的討論民眾版的不僅沒有經過性別影響評估而且可能會風險失控那以下呢我還是要花一些時間把我們民間團體看到的民眾黨版的"},{"start":188.174,"end":205.849,"text":"十一大問題跟漏洞跟大家報告第一個民眾黨版的條文十八之一委託者資格規範不足恐淪為代孕專程回國制度民眾黨版未要求台灣在在台灣有一定的居住天數或戶籍連結"},{"start":206.61,"end":225.56,"text":"只要符合法定身份就可以啟動代孕程序實質的風險是台灣有可能會被當作代孕使用地委託者平時不在台灣生活僅為代孕的流程短期回國最後的法律責任後續照顧社會成本卻是台灣承擔這是第一個風險"},{"start":226.44,"end":250.215,"text":"第二個民眾黨版代孕者年齡未設上限與其他風險條件脫節制度明顯失衡他只有設定到例如具備生產經驗等顯示立法已經意識到懷孕跟生產本身具有高度風險但是在年齡方面只有設具有中華民國國籍且有戶籍這成年女性的限制會使得"},{"start":250.675,"end":267.513,"text":"就是只要符合這樣的限制成年生產經驗事實上他沒有考慮到高風險的代孕其實在情感上跟身體上帶來的壓力第三有生產經驗規定不足以確保風險管控就是"},{"start":268.314,"end":294.961,"text":"民眾黨版第十八支二條提到僅要求代孕者有生產經驗但沒有區分是怎麼樣的生產經驗譬如說曾發生孕期重大併發症或者是大出血雖然他是有生產經驗但是其再次懷孕的風險非常的高應該要加以區分並要求其他的條件第四保險規範看似存在但缺乏可執行性"},{"start":295.941,"end":319.373,"text":"所以除了建議法條他應該要落實對代孕者的權益保障手段更應該要明定風險的管控所以他這個部分剛剛提到的就算要做到保障也完全沒有第五 費用沒有涉細目與上限引發市場競爭風險民眾擋板的費用完全開放可能導致代孕條件被金錢競價"},{"start":320.894,"end":340.424,"text":"第六居住機構規範空洞責任可能轉嫁給代孕者這個部分我就不講第七他胚胎的植入也沒有設上限反而低於一般人工生殖的標準第八也是非常多婦女團體憂慮的他沒有禁止近親代孕"},{"start":341.044,"end":362.581,"text":"恐導致家庭內的壓迫由於在亞洲的社會中包含台灣家庭成員的關係不僅是個人選擇也會伴隨長輩期待 孝道責任性別的權利關係那民眾黨版沒有規範事實上也可能會讓女性的家庭成員被推入無法拒絕的處境"},{"start":364.076,"end":382.091,"text":"第九 他定型化契約缺乏不應記載事項代孕者很容易在權力不對等下讓步第十 他整部條文不僅流程順序不明而且沒有明定律師角色法律風險無人把關最後很嚴重的事情是"},{"start":383.172,"end":411.684,"text":"所有國際上最擔心的就是代孕者跟孩子的權益完全在這裡面沒有規範終止委任之後的後果如果委託者在懷孕的過程中終止委任那最後代孕者是不是要自行承擔後續的風險那子女的侵權歸屬跟照顧責任事實上丹麥就因為他們沒有辦法處理這樣的一個兒童權益決定不要開放代孕"},{"start":412.344,"end":435.635,"text":"那我想除了講民眾黨版之外我最後也要補充剛剛很多人講到的聯合國的提高婦女地位的報告他裡面所講的原因跟後果他最後可能造成的後果至少有三大項第一個性別歧視喔那這樣子的觀念會被強化還有女性身體會被商品化第二個"},{"start":436.235,"end":465.955,"text":"就是它會增加更多的需求使得它的一個不利的產業擴大第三個它會邊緣化跟脆弱化更多的女性那我想這是一個它會帶來的影響在我們沒有辦法去處理這樣帶來的影響之前那再次重申我們非常多的民進黨立委希望今天我們優先處理有共識的單身女性跟女同志"},{"start":466.355,"end":489.767,"text":"配偶那如果真的要討論代孕的話請拿出專法來那我想那個時候整個社會才能夠嚴肅面對我們是不是能夠處理聯合國這邊所講的婦女權益被弱化被邊緣化被商業化的很多的問題還有最重要的就是孕母跟兒童權益的保障現在是完全付之缺乳謝謝好 謝謝還有"},{"start":495.625,"end":497.496,"text":"林玥琴委員要來做程序發言 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謝謝主席 我們請副部長謝謝 請鍾副部長"},{"start":18.932,"end":45.679,"text":"黃委員好 副部長好今天關於這樣的一個修正我這樣理解看對不對行政院的版本大概分幾種一種叫做如果去投底的話是10年以上到死刑然後第二個如果是這一個去降底的話去跟敵人投降的話不盡應盡之責去投降是3到10年那犯了這兩個的預備犯"},{"start":46.659,"end":58.329,"text":"是這一個6個月到5年然後最後加了一個比較新的形態的就是語言舉動文字圖畫電子企圖科技方法"},{"start":59.192,"end":83.017,"text":"表達對敵人的效忠是一年以上 七年以下大概是這樣子 而這個版本裡頭行政院的版本 包括委員的版本我看完你們的分析 像林一景委員的提案因為後面多了一句 足以生軍事喪失不利玷污國家榮譽 損害國家利益加這幾個字"},{"start":85.1,"end":107.125,"text":"感覺起來你們會比較難處理我看了司法院的意見好像也對這幾個字的定義並不是很明確是不是請公安部在這一塊先表達你們的意見尤其是林議警委員加了這些文字之後未來你們在執行上是會增加更多困難來"},{"start":111.98,"end":139.125,"text":"報告委員好 我是法律師司長跟委員做個說明就是因為有關於委員他在我們用言語舉動文字圖畫電子記錄或是科技方法或其他方式對體人為效忠之表示委員加了足以生軍事上不利益或是玷污國家榮譽這些文字但是因為他這一個軍人他最重要的就是要對國家忠誠"},{"start":140.305,"end":167.41,"text":"他絕對不能夠說 向敵人表示說我要效忠你這種行為會讓我們全國人民都不認同那這種意識表示出來之後其實我們的看法就認為說這一個為敵人效忠的行為表示就已經成立 就即成犯就已經成立林鄭月娥的後面這一棒他這種行為一出來 說實在話對於我們部隊的內部管理軍紀及國家安全和國內的認同"},{"start":168.45,"end":184.778,"text":"都產生極大的影響已經生了軍事上的不利益了就是說加了這一段反而讓這一個可能到時候當事人就拿這一段出來說我也沒有影響國家利益這一類的這樣的一個辯駁嘛 對不對這個當事人他有些犯罪行為他很多矯視之詞啦第二個"},{"start":193.632,"end":209.74,"text":"因為新加了這個應該也是最近的這個新型態那我現在如果舉一個例子就是說有人用AI合成把這個我們的這個敵人境外敵對勢力他們的這個叫領袖好了或他們的領導給美化然後就做了一張這個軍人效忠他的圖一種是做這張圖的人做這個"},{"start":221.192,"end":233.547,"text":"用AI去生成這張圖的人是現役軍人那他不會犯這一條各位報告因為這可能還要按照個案的具體事實來認識用法好那第二個是傳這張圖的人是現役軍人"},{"start":237.608,"end":261.708,"text":"跟委員報告 因為如果是這樣的一個問題的話我們還是認為應該要按照具體的事實好 沒有 就是說那一張圖就是說做那一張圖的是現役軍人就是說他做這件事情已經違反這個已經很明確囉 這個人已經很明確那我是他的同袍嗎那我收到他傳給我 我也覺得很有趣我覺得很有趣 於是我就傳了那我有沒有事"},{"start":262.862,"end":287.984,"text":"國民報告因為我們這個設定的構成要件他就是為敵人為效忠的表示如果他做這張圖出來他有很明白的直接或是間接要向敵人為一個效忠的表示的話當然會構成我們新增訂的這個錯誤沒有 那我沒有 我就轉傳對 如果是 當然是如果是你轉傳那我們經過了解後他可能沒有這個向敵人效忠表示的意思但是我們現役軍人你對國家的忠誠"},{"start":289.125,"end":315.214,"text":"就是連這種說轉船啊然後這種行為我們都不樂見啦如果是說我們認為他行為舉止可能有不當我們可以按照陸海空軍懲罰法對他的一個不當的行為舉止加以釋懲好 那你 他轉船了他也沒有表示意見 他就轉船嘛覺得好玩啊 他就轉船轉船到一個有現役軍人的群組然後裡頭就有一個現役軍人說 同意"},{"start":319.161,"end":348.787,"text":"這樣各位不知道這可能還是要按照個案的事實來認識用法好所以這個弄了之後到時候可能這個檢察官法官我剛講這些都是個案的這一個狀況還是同意或者說畫得很好同意或者是畫得很好那他也用言語表達了對吧他對一個圖像他對做了一個言語上的表達了那可能也會中這一條"},{"start":349.642,"end":374.481,"text":"所以後續這個修法通過之後後續對於這一些樣態可能國安部這一邊要能夠再跟就要再跟這個檢察官這邊跟法務部跟司法院在這一些的認定上能夠更加的明確最後一個如果啊這個現役軍人在反串反串啊半夜當啊 演戲啊"},{"start":380.049,"end":392.677,"text":"反串然後就有一個人對習近平敬禮對五星旗敬禮大家都知道他們那煙火的他們那反串現在在軍方裡頭這樣是允許的嗎我們是應該不會允許這種行為舉止那不然他沒有在軍方他們就整個人跑去KTV照顧我他們就假老又自拍要傳上網路"},{"start":409.909,"end":416.505,"text":"但是他是現役軍人 後來被你們叫去之後他說沒有啦 我們是在玩的 我們是在反串的會不會中這一條"},{"start":418.403,"end":443.896,"text":"報告委員還是要按照具體的事實來認定如果是說他們有這種效忠敵人的一個表示可能就會落入這一條如果他是反串可能是開玩笑但是因為他行為舉止不當還是影響了軍域我們會用陸海空軍懲罰法等相關的一個法條對他予以釋懲OK 就是不一定會到這個陸海空軍刑法但是有其他的要按照個案來判斷OK 好 謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"166955","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166955","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f543f4412830d17fb20e067a41bab2fb0fea336b50e104cbbb44b919a22b82dabb035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:18:17 - 09:32:40","影片長度":"00:14:23","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員李坤城等 19 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超過半個世紀我們再往下看當時一開始投票這個事情政府怎麼去保障就是投票當天大家有價可以去投嘛"},{"start":177.148,"end":203.89,"text":"所以大家有沒有發現一開始要讓公民去投票政府想出來的時候想出來的第一方法就是放假嘛就這麼簡單嘛但是放假有解決所有的問題嗎 沒有有哪些人沒有辦法去投票 我們先看一下這是基本人權喔但是有可能做生意的人有可能有一些備戰任務的人有可能一些24小時必須備勤的警校啊 救護人員 醫院的這些人這些人有辦法放到假嗎顯然沒有辦法"},{"start":206.334,"end":225.431,"text":"所以放假不能解決所有的問題好 那開始有人去思考說那如果有放假不能解決問題的時候那我們用什麼方法來解決他們問題所以往往是要解決一個問題又跑出了其他的問題所以就像說你有時候要解決一個病症頭痛 我吃個普拿疼"},{"start":226.611,"end":240.208,"text":"這次頭痛比較嚴重吃兩根普拿疼有人說不對你不是上次吃普拿疼有效你就吃兩顆你應該去給醫生看搞不好要打客流感沒有錯同樣的問題我要繼續去解決我可以沿用原來的解方給它強化"},{"start":241.63,"end":261.861,"text":"我也可以另批蹊徑遭受其他的解方所以現在有兩個解方一個是既然當時為了讓人民去投票就規定一定要給勞工假一天那現在給兩天有沒有更有效又或者說那我們改成不在籍投票有沒有比較有效往下看所以這次的投票我們的這個法案設計提前放假我們了解選舉不是投票那一剎那的行為"},{"start":266.806,"end":288.295,"text":"大家以為只要票投進去那一剎那 讓他可以投進去了可以表達了 就完成了選舉嗎 不對你經常買車 甚至買個手機 要不要考量預算要不要去貨比三家 上網上去搜尋 衡量你的需求比較哪些功能符合你的滿足選舉啊 是選民在挑什麼 挑候選人不是投票那一刻才決定啊 參與"},{"start":290.816,"end":313.759,"text":"我們只顧及到投票那一刻的便利忽略到在投票前一刻 一刻之前的討論 了解這都很重要所以相較於不在籍投票那一剎那提供的便利跟多提供一天的假期讓選民有機會好好的去思考我要投給誰 誰才是我合適的人這就是重點 再往下看"},{"start":314.52,"end":327.921,"text":"所以呢這次民主投票的促進強化民主投票促進法裡面呢他就做了這些譬如說有沒有在這次去年的發生了一些干擾選舉的方式有啊 密錄器啊看看你們罷免的人有沒有誰去投罷免票啊是不是"},{"start":329.079,"end":344.13,"text":"以前只是不能窺視 刺探投票隱私現在選民有沒有去投開票所 都變成是一些干擾選舉的行為了那這要不要防範 防範的方式有幾種啊一個是在原來選辦法加強啊 在刑法加強啊你也可以另訂刑法加強啊 我強調一個問題 複雜的問題沒有單一的解方 大家可以考慮所以今天公聽會就要考慮各種可能 再往下看"},{"start":353.769,"end":368.085,"text":"我們看一看有沒有人真的真的去了解這個選務流程我幫大家複習一下在場有選務官員有很多學者專家你們看一看你們知道一個選舉有多複雜嗎首先要先決定什麼投開票手的位置然後你要臨派選務人員"},{"start":369.608,"end":393.471,"text":"照冊公告要公告什麼這個區域的選舉人名冊然後你要接收選票那當天你要來投票人要確認他的戶籍查驗他的身份正確的領給他選票投票只是一個動作之後還有開櫃取票檢票唱票計票統計包裝彙整要保存證據才能宣布當選台灣有多厲害這一連串的事情"},{"start":394.639,"end":414.871,"text":"提前一個多月前作業在當天四點截止投票晚上八點前又開出票來這是台灣奇蹟世界奇蹟可是這個有多複雜你知道嗎往下看投開票所第一個你以為很簡單嗎台灣有投開票所有將近一萬九千個投開票所"},{"start":416.252,"end":443.418,"text":"那我們看107跟109比較那時候平均每個投開票所大概1300到1500人到了109年降到1200人減300人要增加多少增加到1000多個投開票所投開票所的規模很重要嗎當然重要啊你不能距離選民太遠啊他開車40分鐘才能到在原鄉的地方可以嗎所以你看原鄉的選投開票所啊投票是很辛苦的不亞於你從台北坐高鐵回屏東投票啊"},{"start":444.289,"end":464.723,"text":"所以呢 投開票的人數過多 會影響到什麼 開票的速度明顯在哪裡 台北市投票所的人數如果過多 開票就很頭痛 往下看所以不在一起投票有哪些問題呢第一 如果你要選擇不在一起投票你要讓將近兩千萬個合格公民去告訴選務機關 我打算在哪裡投啊"},{"start":465.936,"end":476.703,"text":"這就是一個浩大的工程欸你要問將近1950萬的合格選民 你打算在哪裡投票我有多少投開票讓你選 我有19000個投票讓你選19000個讓你選 讓1950萬人選100個人選一個投開票的比例這個作業有多大 有沒有想過 再往下看如果不管這個決定了 候選人怎麼知道我的選民在哪裡"},{"start":490.387,"end":510.276,"text":"我的選民 我是侃體鄉的鄉長 我要選鄉長侃體鄉投票公民數才一萬人啊有多少外地人口 他選在哪裡投票我去哪裡跟他拉票所以選舉人名冊的公告就是讓候選人知道說你的選民在哪裡目前的看法 目前的做法看起來在籍投票很笨但是至少戶籍明確"},{"start":511.226,"end":536.608,"text":"我知道他不在家 我就跟他爸爸媽媽說 我來拜訪過了 希望他投給我我們如果是不在一起投票 我就看幾個組合這幾種排列組合啊 如果在台北某個投票所啊有這麼多有屏東 台南 金門 花蓮 台中的選民去登記每一個選民的選票組合有多少大家想想看 要不要再重複第一章我們有多少的鄉鎮市民代表好 結果是什麼 往下看"},{"start":537.864,"end":566.639,"text":"就是投票的選務混亂我曾經跟我們屏東的鄉長啊鄉民代表說 你要選記啊要現在平常是你怎麼當選 怎麼當選鄉長的選票就一個鄉啊你四點截止投票他不到六點就知道自己可以宣布當選啊現在不一樣啦因為那個鄉長他的鄉民很多在哪裡旅外啊 北漂啊他們的票什麼時候開出來 晚上十二點啊"},{"start":568.444,"end":589.315,"text":"我要宣布當選 以前我知道6點就可以宣布當選了現在都要等啊 等到我那個鄉的鄉民有在不在一起投票的其他的地方票都開出來了 都統計出來了 彙整回來勘定鄉公所 我們有縣選委會 有鄉的選委會 要彙整這些票數他才知道他有沒有當選 你知道嗎 在我們那裡的村長跟里長啊常常差5票以內當選的啊"},{"start":594.745,"end":619.156,"text":"幾百票對幾百票嘛 大家有沒有想過這個問題大家想到選民要不再去投票他也很囉嗦啊 來往下看我如果去說我要再不再去投票第一 這是不是我的確實意願 我要怎麼去選擇 我要本人去辦嗎如果有人可以冒名說 鍾亞冰我本來在我的戶籍所在條段有人把我冒名去登記在台北要怎麼查核 這個是不是事實的"},{"start":620.424,"end":628.006,"text":"那我是不是要先跑一趟我為了這個投票我要事先去本人去我想要投開票所那個地方的戶籍我本人我要在你這裡投票對選民有比較好嗎再來萬一我忘記了呢有些選民他可能就辦了上網如果越便利我上網選擇選擇完了之後就像我那個7-11我網購之後啊"},{"start":641.485,"end":667.186,"text":"全台灣有將近一萬六千個7-11隨便我選 什麼時候送達有嘛 有沒有有沒有 電到電很多人很習慣網購 指定哪一個7-11去取你通常會指定你住的地方的附近嘛萬一哪天你出差 你在那邊取你忘記了你在哪裡登記了選舉投票當天 糟糕了我登記我在哪裡投票我可能今年換了地址 換了工作點耶這都很多的事情嘛"},{"start":670.029,"end":688.07,"text":"我會白跑一趟啊所以有可能我被人家冒名登記到別的投開票所我當天去我的戶籍所都不能投有可能我忘了我登記在哪裡了我怎麼辦所以說一個制度的變革為什麼會有入境依賴因為你越熟悉的解方你越了解問題出在哪裡"},{"start":688.837,"end":708.845,"text":"所以如果說我們說多放假一天來解決投票的問題大家都知道多放假一天會有什麼問題會有人跑出去玩嘛因為現在兩天就有人跑出去玩了嘛這些問題都存在也都很好評估但是我換了新的解方你真的不曉得我去打了客流感會不會有併發症會不會有副作用所以有人選擇說那我吃一顆普拿疼不夠我再吃兩顆普拿疼我必須承認沒有辦法是完美的辦法"},{"start":717.915,"end":726.452,"text":"因為有層出不窮的問題你每想說一個解放就會跑出一些併發的後遺症我們總是在這些問題跟解放當中不斷的循環"},{"start":727.611,"end":751.679,"text":"所以今天這個法案它不是一個完美的解方但是它用我們熟悉的方法來解決我們已知的問題有沒有效可以試試看但是用我們未知的方法會跑出這麼多未知的問題我剛剛提出來的問題我們目前在倡議不在籍投票的人有多少人想過因為大部分人都是選民我想的比選民多一點因為我曾經是候選人"},{"start":752.304,"end":765.994,"text":"所以我知道候選人在投票當天的心情候選人在平常去拜訪選民他需要的一些資訊當你做了不在籍投票之後這些事情都會產生變化將會影響到剛剛超過了一萬一千多個應選名額的當選人他們在當選之前可能有兩倍或三倍的候選人要面對同樣的困擾"},{"start":777.119,"end":796.171,"text":"所以我是建議當我們要解決一個問題的時候要思考一下要用熟悉的方式還是用新的方式會不會碰觸新的問題還是我們要辦法應付既有的問題 以上好我們謝謝鍾委員那我們接下來請曲兆祥教授"},{"start":827.027,"end":828.432,"text":"主席在座的各位女士先生"}]}},{"id":"166981","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166981","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5438892070ba2398e51067a41bab2fb0feae25119d80932fbafe9d0f8920134b93d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:31:17 - 10:38:54","影片長度":"00:07:37","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員李坤城等 19 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我有請司法院刑事廳的顧副廳長還有法務部檢察師的張師長好 我們請副廳長跟師長"},{"start":26.314,"end":50.084,"text":"兩位好 我想要先就一個昨天的這個時事先來詢問一下就是我想這個中共因為可能還台軍演沒想到反而讓台灣的股市傷了三萬點因此乾脆直接公布了所謂台獨頑固分子的名單當然除了這個政治人物之外現在也延伸到了連司法的人員都成為這個所謂台獨打手跟幫兇"},{"start":51.505,"end":78.782,"text":"那我們都知道其實相關的這些檢調人員或者是法務人員在針對所謂抓共諜或者是在這個部分其實都非常的努力那麼在就像剛剛為什麼我會從這一題開始是因為在我們在修法的過程當中我們除了就是今天所謂剛剛很多國民黨的委員一直在爭執的所謂什麼效忠啊敵國但不論如何守護"},{"start":79.882,"end":108.01,"text":"這個台灣的主權跟國家安全是非常重要的只是現在中國的長臂管轄如果延伸到司法人員的時候包括我們今天討論的這個修法一旦司法人員心生恐懼擔心他們以後出國就像剛剛質詢的沈博洋委員一樣還要思考我會不會擔心成為中國長臂管轄然後就直接帶走被消失的人員的時候那麼今天我們修再多的法"},{"start":108.71,"end":136.993,"text":"根本不用去在乎那些文字到底清不清晰清不清楚基本上是不是司法人員是不是就被恫嚇到了那麼當然我還是相信台灣的司法人員的素質跟專業只是面對這樣子已經不是第一起的所謂被列為台獨頑固分子的名單當中現在司法院或是法務部內部有沒有做哪些的這種所謂專業"},{"start":138.654,"end":143.915,"text":"跟這些我們的相關的同仁的一種進一步的這個部分謝謝委員垂訊那跟委員報告就是說目前司法院針對這個國安或軍事的專業的部分都有設置專庭跟專股那這個專庭專股的法官他每一年都要去這個受訓那這個受訓的時數是12個小時"},{"start":166.54,"end":183.941,"text":"另外我們從109年一直到現在我們每一年都有辦一到兩場國安軍事的專業訓練這個專業訓練可以增加法官對於國安的意識的提升這個部分是我們在提升法官專業性所做的一個作為"},{"start":184.895,"end":207.87,"text":"好 其實基本上我要問的不是國安議事的問題啊我相信我們的司法人員的專業跟國安議事不會有問題但是現在如果當同樣的出現在司法人員的時候有沒有其他相互的防護的機制包括他們在協助國安案件的時候那麼在這個部分你們有沒有啟動什麼相關跟國安單位彼此的合作"},{"start":209.912,"end":237.294,"text":"就是司法人員自己本身的安全啦感謝那個委員的關心那針對昨天那個中國發布的那個新聞那本部也發布了那個新聞稿就是要嚴正的捍衛我國司法人員的這個人身安全以及捍衛我國的司法主權那針對我們同仁那偵辦國安案件的時候呢遭受到這些的壓力那我們也跟相關的單位密切的合作來保障我們同仁的這個人身安全以上報告好"},{"start":237.794,"end":264.477,"text":"所以我還是希望在這個部分真的是對於台灣的司法我們今天講這個修法如果說司法人員沒有穩住的時候那說實話修再多的法規都沒有用因為確實在很多檢調單位在辦國安案件的時候其實都很怕調查得很辛苦但是後來在過程中承受壓力但是這個壓力竟然是來自對岸的壓力那就真的是很可笑了另外當然我要回到今天的修法的部分"},{"start":265.377,"end":288.531,"text":"剛剛國民黨的委員都在用一種所謂錯誤的定謀方式比如說宣誓效忠我自己個人認為啦男歡女愛宣誓效忠如果不忠的是對他自己的另外一半這根本跟敵對政權無關是吧這應該就是我們在所謂使用文字上面的部分甚至於剛剛有國民黨的委員提到如果非官不出情那"},{"start":289.251,"end":311.558,"text":"軍人最重要所執行的任務不是他的勤務嗎如果他不出勤基本上就像一個立法委員就是坐領乾薪但不省預算這個基本上是薪水小偷這已經不是叛國的問題是工作態度有問題所以我想要請問的謝謝國防部我要請問一下那麼就是如果說"},{"start":313.089,"end":334.678,"text":"今天反而是用反戰而不是真的用叛國的時候那麼該怎麼辦因為現在本席曾經就是在另外國防外交委會有提到就是說現在有很多的方法是換一個角度來包裝他沒有要你投降他要你反戰那麼在反戰的定義上面呢"},{"start":335.854,"end":348.395,"text":"你身為一個軍人可以反戰嗎 應該反戰嗎如果他提供了相關的照片然後成為一個反戰者這個有沒有違反到我們今天相關修法的部分呢"},{"start":352.871,"end":377.473,"text":"委員好 謝謝委員的詢問首先先跟委員說明一下就是如果剛才所講那個非官他因為什麼防寒衣 他不想要出勤其實如果他 我們連隊長對他下達的是軍事上的命令我們軍人就有服從命令的義務如果他不服從是會構成的陸海工軍刑法的抗命罪而不是所謂的降敵罪其實各有各的規範"},{"start":378.414,"end":396.042,"text":"是 所以我本席為什麼會特別問這個問題是在尋答的過程中有的時候那種特定的定毛而去扭曲甚至於用個案來去曲解這些文字它會影響到我們的修法我們的修法內容過程當中不可能把一千個一百個樣態放上去而這種所謂定毛然後認為這個修法的方向有錯誤的部分"},{"start":402.665,"end":414.401,"text":"我認為你們身為相關的單位主管機關是必須要在透過詢答的當中要來講清楚就像本席詢問的一樣所謂的反戰那麼身為一個軍人應該反戰嗎"},{"start":417.825,"end":438.776,"text":"如果你今天身為一個軍人你反戰你為什麼要當兵軍人不就是為了戰爭而做準備我們不希望戰爭對是因為剛才在前面的報告已經講軍人就是要克盡職責保護人民然後效忠國家我們就是要保護國家的安全我們備戰而不拒戰對"},{"start":440.037,"end":454.168,"text":"好 所以本席特別期待是說我非常同意這個修法甚至於我在這個修法的部分我認為不應該用個案去來一一做檢視因為這個應該是留給司法單位來做定奪好 謝謝好 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部長請部長早部長"},{"start":11.704,"end":40.119,"text":"近幾年中共對於我們台灣的軍事脅迫的量持續在增加共軍擾台的數量也從2022年到2023年1700多架到2024年的5109架那我們也推估2025年的總數還會更高甚至在我們今天所聚焦的這一場軍演當中還出現當日的"},{"start":42.421,"end":58.681,"text":"130架次的這個紀錄那在去年底這場軍演時間較以往來得更晚尤其在這個12月底東北季風強烈台灣周邊海域的這個海象通常不好的情況之下但是解放軍卻還是挑在這個時間點來進行軍演"},{"start":61.684,"end":83.119,"text":"從我們東部戰區所公布的資訊來看雖然提到要打擊台獨和外部干涉的勢力但是在化社演習區仍然刻意避開日本顯示這次的演訓主要的目標還是要封控台灣的港口並且後續軍演的10個小時當中統計有941"},{"start":88.042,"end":104.251,"text":"這個航班還有10萬旅客受到影響造成我們這個空運航線的一個重大衝擊那中共在去年12月29日早上也宣布要進行這個演習但是也由於年底是共軍演訓的一個熱期"},{"start":105.552,"end":134.399,"text":"本來就不排除相關的可能性那我們國安單位也應該有4千有掌握這個相關的情資那我們從這個東部戰區的這個公告來看他們這次演習包含四大科目其一就是這個海空戰備的這個警訊還有第二個是奪取中和治權再來是要港要域的一個封控那"},{"start":135.379,"end":164.147,"text":"以及新增加的這個外線立體這個褶組等其中新加入的這個外線立體褶組解讀上應該是為了要防止美國跟日本等外國軍事資源介入這個台海但我們從實際的這個演練內容來看這項科目在演習當中還有什麼樣的意涵實際上有沒有新的做法這個部分是不是請部長簡要說明一下科目委員報告我想這個部分我們"},{"start":166.414,"end":181.612,"text":"我們就只講說它一個比較明顯的共軍動態來跟委員報告好了第一股當然就是說在12月27號到28號有共建兩艘陸續通過公國海峽進入西太平洋然後在30號有十環這個東海這樣的一個動態"},{"start":184.082,"end":205.23,"text":"另外一個就是說有共機的八架在29號通過了宮古海峽進入西太平洋然後當日呢就沿這個航線來返航另外當然就是西太平洋有一個南站回來的這個兩棲的攻擊艦的編隊那我想"},{"start":206.83,"end":221.875,"text":"我們不去詳細的幫他演繹什麼叫做外線立體擇阻我們只是就實際的狀況來跟委員做個說明那不管共軍使用什麼樣的戰術名稱我想這些舉動都已經嚴重迫害區域的穩定來挑戰國際秩序"},{"start":223.274,"end":248.457,"text":"好 那我們也確實有掌握到共軍在這次的軍演當中發射了27枚遠程火箭那第一波是落在我們基隆東北方第二波是落在我們台南的西方那鄰近我24海里這個臨街線的周邊並且擔任涉及任務的是號稱中國版的這個海馬式"},{"start":250.634,"end":269.263,"text":"遠程相似的火箭炮那先前這個遠程火箭對台灣的威脅已經受到高度的關注並逐步在進行更大規模的部署那這次又有貼近實戰的演練我想請教部長跟您討論是我們怎麼解讀這個火箭"},{"start":270.203,"end":287.399,"text":"軍的這個動態並且在這次演習沒有發射這個彈道飛彈是否代表遠程火箭將成為共軍共台的一個主要火力那國防部目前怎麼評估他對於我們台灣的一個威脅我們主要採取什麼樣手段來做反制"},{"start":288.8,"end":316.36,"text":"我想如果共軍真的要進行所謂聯合火力打擊的話那我想相關的這些不管是彈道飛彈或者是遠程火箭跟其他各類型的飛彈都是他可能攻台的一個火力選擇的一個項目那我們對於各型的火力系統都要持續掌握然後要依整體的作戰情境來進行綜合的研判這我想"},{"start":319.042,"end":326.73,"text":"那對於我們這個因應這個不管是遠程火箭或彈道飛彈威脅我們的防護手段有包括這個"},{"start":328.724,"end":349.746,"text":"這個主動攔截跟各式的被動防禦的作為那我想這個部分有施設機敏就暫不以對外公開好那另外我們在這次的演訓當中掌握到中共的這三艘航空母艦包括遼寧號 山東號 福建號都沒有參與這次的軍演那我想請教部長我們判斷是什麼原因"},{"start":350.387,"end":370.555,"text":"那是否有觀察到其他這個共軍基建在演習期間在第一第二島鏈之間進行相關的這個演練有沒有就我們掌握的是中共航母三艘在軍演期間都在港都在港並沒有任何出動那您剛剛問的其他的共"},{"start":371.625,"end":391.253,"text":"軍的基建我想就跟剛剛您前面垂詢的一樣我們有看到27 28有共機兩艘通過宮古海峽進入西太然後30號石環然後共機的八架通過在29號通過宮古然後另外當然他南站有一個LHA就是兩棲的攻擊艦那他"},{"start":392.304,"end":416.804,"text":"之前由湛江起航之後後在我想應該是在現在看到回程有經過巴士海峽那在這個返航的期間有參加這個共軍這一次的針對性軍演然後也航進我們的東南的這個海域但狀況就是這樣子好 那"},{"start":418.038,"end":444.966,"text":"比起這個航母在這次演習當中我們看到零七五型動拐五的兩棲攻擊艦首度的參與對台的軍演或許這個更值得我們注意的是由於零七五型的可以同時搭載多架直升機快速運送一定規模的兵力展開登陸作戰不論是對於台灣或是周邊國家都構成極大的威脅我想請教部長"},{"start":445.606,"end":473.613,"text":"那就國防部的掌握我們這次看到零七五型在台灣東南外海進行這個核種的這個訓練我們目前在東部的這個部署是否有這個足夠的量能來反制他所帶來的這個威脅就我們現在所偵測到的應該在澳門的周邊海域的活動期間他沒有做這個直升機的一個從甲板起飛的一個動作"},{"start":475.046,"end":488.94,"text":"沒有啦沒有那對於我們的這個威脅您個人認為我想這個兩棲攻擊艦它的一個boost或者LPD像這樣的類型的boost"},{"start":490.18,"end":510.96,"text":"是確實是會在我們東邊做一些常態性也有一些 平常也不只是這個針對性的軍演這樣子好 那就這個不論是零七五型兩棲攻擊艦的參與還是對我們東部戰力構成的相對的威脅性"},{"start":512.242,"end":531.122,"text":"還是說以遠程火箭取代彈道飛彈企圖對我們進行低成本的飽和攻擊等等還有可能中國這次也利用了許多AI生成假影像進行認知作戰都顯示敵人的手段正變得更為"},{"start":532.924,"end":553.137,"text":"這個複合且靈活啦那我也想這個部分請國防部就是持續去掌握相關的情質以確保我們國家的一個安全我想中國應該都是會除了這個用軍事威懾之外也會不斷的搭配認知戰法律戰然後甚至輿論戰那等等這些我們"},{"start":554.738,"end":574.665,"text":"這種複合式的威脅我們都要結合相關的這些單位都來進行一個有效的應對這我想那我們會一直不斷的來根據他的這種這種複合式的威脅的心態的一些改變我們也會來想設法進展這樣子好 以上謝謝部長的答詢"}]}},{"id":"166979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166979","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5432532d6f4f8cfe753067a41bab2fb0feae25119d80932fbaf855b1c4d5317d4a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:22:50 - 10:31:09","影片長度":"00:08:19","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員李坤城等 19 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謝謝主席 我請一下國防部副部長以及我們司法院副廳長好 請中副部長還有我們副廳長"},{"start":18.373,"end":37.247,"text":"好 今天因為我們討論這個陸海空軍刑法第24條那條文只有一條 但是尤其現在對我們第一線的國軍弟兄來說尤其這些義靈的這些就是這個可能都在20多歲而已"},{"start":38.027,"end":41.149,"text":"那麼現在不管在網路上或者他們照片上都有可能我們擔心的在這次修法裡面會不會讓他們是不小心或者在完全沒有任何的意識之下觸及了相關的法律而使得他們可能變成要處一年以上的徒刑"},{"start":59.421,"end":64.026,"text":"那所以這個像剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到很多的案例算不算剛才副部長說都看個案那看起來就看個案就變成大家覺得整個的好像變得很虛然後很擔心會不會由我剛才講的這些年輕的一齡的男子很容易去觸發"},{"start":82.881,"end":100.1,"text":"那比如說這樣因為我們在講說怎麼樣是屬於效忠方式那比如我們在之前比如說對像像曹新成先生他跟他的中國的女朋友在他的手指上大家互刻一個忠誠那請問一下這叫不叫效忠忠誠對不對"},{"start":103.684,"end":115.886,"text":"老師說那對於很多的這些年輕的異男他可能跟他的男朋友或者跟他的女朋友來互克一個忠誠然後這有沒有可能處罰所以我覺得這個問題確實要在我們今天要把法律出去之前我們要有很多的討論那我現在先請一下這個副廳長因為我有看到因為剛才看到我們司法院今天提出來的好意見"},{"start":131.269,"end":157.303,"text":"那麼這裡面特別提到在你們的報告裡面說效忠的表示含義甚廣為了避免過度擴張可罰性的範圍依舊本條第五項它的補充為就是對敵人為效忠之表示後面應該加上足以生軍事上之不利益者這是你們今天"},{"start":158.383,"end":179.245,"text":"送到我們司法法治委員會的意見那麼能不能請副廳長來說明一下為什麼今天你們的意見是這樣子委員好就是說就如同我們報告所說就是說效忠是表示他含義是非常廣而這個法定刑是一年以上七年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":180.586,"end":198.869,"text":"並不輕喔 對於年輕的藝男來說對 是不輕那我們認為說這樣法律裡面沒有一個明確的定義說什麼叫效忠的表示的話那這個部分我們是擔心處罰範圍可能是會過廣所以我們希望說能夠在法官在個案審查"},{"start":199.269,"end":216.532,"text":"也就是說賦予法官個案的審查權說他這樣一個行為有沒有對特定法益也就是說軍事上的利益有造成侵害的情形 侵害的危險如果有的話這樣才能夠符合所謂法益保護的核心立法的目的"},{"start":217.734,"end":242.659,"text":"對 這樣子的修法會比較就是又符合國防部他們的需求然後在我們在法律上執行起來到時候不要變得說整個的這個處罰變得太廣泛 太抽象對不對對 但是就是說整個政策的決定我們還是會尊重大院的這當然 不然的話我們為什麼要請司法院提供意見好 來 副部長"},{"start":244.09,"end":263.935,"text":"好 剛才應該聽到這個副廳長的說法那麼事實上在我們的立法院法制及針對我們這個法裡面也提出來就是當時你們在這個預告 這個法律預告的時候其實是有這個文字的 是不是你們在法律預告的時候是有這個文字 副部長知道吧"},{"start":266.909,"end":287.138,"text":"不知道是有這個預告說是有這個文字有這個文字嘛所以他說你後來把他拿掉我不曉得你們為什麼拿掉但是現在司法院也認為應該把這個文字恢復所以你們當時拿掉的理由是什麼跟委員做個說明我們當拿掉最主要的理由就是認為說如果現役軍人"},{"start":288.427,"end":309.08,"text":"他對敵人為一個效忠行為的表示其實就已經對於我們的軍事安全國家利益產生的實質的危害對啊所以你們基本上是擔心產生軍事上的危害嘛現役軍人效忠敵人就是怕被敵人做一個侵佔宣傳我剛才在講效忠我剛才講我問你嘛"},{"start":311.081,"end":323.713,"text":"他上面刻忠誠 因為你們講說只要讓對方知道他要效忠了他跟一個對方的不管是中國的女朋友 男朋友或是我們互相刻一個忠誠 算不算他要像敵人喔"},{"start":325.783,"end":344.559,"text":"對阿 要向中共效忠阿她如果跟她女朋友效忠可能是愛意的表達或是什麼可能因為剛才委員講的只是說她是她女朋友男朋友沒有講敵人阿你們認為單身產生軍事上的不利益危害軍事那放到文字裡面有什麼問題放到文字裡有什麼問題報告委員"},{"start":348.823,"end":354.988,"text":"我們就認為說其實只要你對敵人為效忠的表示這個犯行就成立我們是採集成犯的一個態度所以就由你們來做還是要由檢察官事實上的認定然後來處理"},{"start":364.935,"end":390.668,"text":"我覺得今天司法院也做了一個很中肯的建議也做了一個很中肯的建議也就是在法律上要有他的明確性要有他的明確性不要致使很多的一些異難他可能做了一些事情你們認定他是做效忠表示我老師說真的會有一些比較白目一點的或者他很隨性的他可能做這些事情他沒有這個意圖但是你們認為他有這個意圖"},{"start":393.709,"end":410.587,"text":"那所以我覺得今天基本上我們基本上我們是同意這樣的一個修法的方向但是讓法律更有明確性讓我們的第一線軍官能夠更有就是他不要"},{"start":411.508,"end":436.098,"text":"很容易的變成有文字域也好網路域也好這個它有一個什麼行動就一下子就要變成處法然後被判處一年以上的徒刑所以基本上我覺得司法院已經是一個很中肯的建議而且在我們立法院的法治局也做了這樣相關的建議我覺得基本上這個法的一個修正的方向是OK的"},{"start":436.778,"end":464.196,"text":"但是 但是如果你在法律上不夠明確就會有剛才我們很多委員會擔心的事情會擔心的事情說這是不是會變成很容易入人於罪所以我希望國防部能夠像副部長你來你都不曉得有一個這麼重要的文字在這個過程裡面在你們的法條的預告裡面到你們送到立法院裡面竟然突然把它被打掉了我不曉得你們中間有沒有經過相關的討論"},{"start":468.018,"end":488.364,"text":"你都不知道啊 我剛才問你你都一副很茫然的樣子 是不是所以如果你們連這樣就是今天要除以一年以上徒刑這麼重要的事情你們覺得把這個文字拿掉都無所謂我覺得這對於我們所有在前線一線官兵來說"},{"start":489.484,"end":497.595,"text":"對他們來講在法律上的保障是不夠的所以我基本上我們還是會比較希望能夠採行司法院的意見"}]}},{"id":"166978","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166978","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f543eb7fbd39062e1d46bf20238130c06451e25119d80932fbaf07ad72fc102174e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:16:41 - 10:24:29","影片長度":"00:07:48","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「人工生殖法修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十四) 委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一) 委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員鄭正鈐等20人擬具「人工生殖法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三（三）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】【不詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T10:16:41+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T10:24:29+08:00","duration":468,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":42.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.572843750000004,"end":47.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.837843750000005,"end":48.985343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.27221875,"end":189.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.49909375000001,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.27471875,"end":197.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.99159375000002,"end":218.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.91221875000002,"end":220.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.17784375000002,"end":232.09596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.12971875000002,"end":233.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.98596875,"end":249.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.50659375,"end":253.12221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.67909375000002,"end":256.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.85159375,"end":262.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.40346875,"end":277.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.51909375,"end":334.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.42596875000004,"end":376.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.47409375,"end":399.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.61409375000005,"end":433.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.75221875000005,"end":443.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.87721875000005,"end":457.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.30534375,"end":459.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.08971875000003,"end":461.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.74346875000003,"end":468.97034375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.129,"end":23.49,"text":"主席讓大家今天可以在程序上好好的發言那其實不管是從之前有沒有質詢過有辦過公聽會或者是其實許多民團在最近這幾年都已經發出非常多呼籲的聲音我想相關的論述我就不再說明但是身為立法委員我們絕對要對自己的提案負責任對自己的提案有信心你提案可以跟助理討論可以跟民間團體討論"},{"start":24.751,"end":46.984,"text":"可以跟學者專家討論我今天看到委員會彙整出來的版本不管是國民黨團民眾黨團跟民進黨團還有行政院的版本其實大家相差的點就是在於代孕這件事情所以我們今天才要繼續程序發言所以就代孕的議題我就想要直接點名再未還所有的在野黨委員"},{"start":47.904,"end":77.086,"text":"廖偉祥你支持嗎你的選區如果有相關民眾他跟你陳情他因為你們在立法院不管是誰要通過代孕的議題他因此而受到剝削請問廖委員你如何處理相關陳情你如何協助弱勢的女子的子宮受到了買賣受到了剝削盧憲毅委員你支持嗎我不知道你自己有沒有提版本我不知道你有沒有研究過國民黨團的版本民眾黨團的版本甚至是陳金輝委員完全沒有利益迴避的版本"},{"start":77.446,"end":93.285,"text":"而就是國民黨你們在對人民的子宮做的事情都權級委員你認同嗎從區議員選出來在您的選區有非常多經濟弱勢的家庭我不知道在相關的家庭文化當中在還沒有辦法來得及翻轉的社會結構當中"},{"start":94.506,"end":112.279,"text":"在您還沒有看見的社會角落當中有沒有相關弱勢的女性的死供就因此在陳金輝陳昭芝還有國民黨團硬是要強行通過碾壓表決的代孕版本當中將會受到迫害請你去看一看聽一聽你們的選區民眾要怎麼告訴你他們看待代孕的看法"},{"start":112.799,"end":138.512,"text":"王玉明委員標榜自己來自於民間團體捍衛兒少的權利捍衛婦女的權利但是到目前為止我沒有聽到他對相關論述的發言我也沒有聽到他的立場我不知道在代孕這件事情他要如何跟國際上對於強害兒童人權的事情站在一起他根本就是一個加害者他根本就是一個幫兇不要再告訴我他是一個捍衛兒權的立法委員再來陳昭芝就是這一次"},{"start":138.952,"end":160.987,"text":"一直說他要強行通過他一定要通過說他就是為了這件事情來當立法委員的我不知道這句話有沒有正當性我也不知道民眾黨團要違背自己的兩年條款的誓言背叛自己的支持者就只是為了陳昭思一個人想要通過代理孕母法案是不是有其公平合理性我也完全不知道而當陳昭思口口聲聲在公開的場合說"},{"start":162.188,"end":189.363,"text":"他只有領養他感到非常的遺憾他到現在都很遺憾沒有自己的小孩的時候我就要問站在長期維護兒童權利的我的立場請問被你領養的小孩就算他現在長大成人了他從小到大聽你講這樣的話他難道沒有身心壓力嗎他難道不會覺得他只是你的替代品嗎而陳昭之當你講這樣的話的時候你告訴我你是跟人權站在一起的你是維護兒少人權你是維護婦女人權我要說根本就是狗屁不同"},{"start":190.546,"end":218.786,"text":"根本就是不合邏輯根本就是想要繼續壓迫女性的人權接下來陳金輝委員我剛說了不管是您或是你的親戚你的家人甚至你的夫婿有沒有投資相關的公司有沒有投資相關的機構你要不要利益迴避你要不要公開說明你今天如果還敢出席這個法案主條審查你甚至還有相關版本那我就說請你站出來告訴你們國民黨的支持者我陳金輝就是一個不做利益迴避的"},{"start":219.947,"end":236.736,"text":"糟糕立委而我要通過的代孕對我自己來說利益最大照顧的還有誰的利益還有有錢出得起有能力出得起這些錢的女性還有他們的家人而誰是受害者就是我說的很清楚貧窮女人就是受害者"},{"start":237.296,"end":255.946,"text":"再來邱振均委員 蘇清泉委員也請你們告訴你們選區的選民你為什麼要在立法院通過代孕版本你為什麼要跟這些委員站在一起只要你們每個人可以說得出來我相信你們的選民也都很願意跟你對話過去這幾年在立法院有非常多"},{"start":256.946,"end":273.783,"text":"困難的議題通常進步派跟保守派會有強烈的差別但很可貴的是在這個議題上進步派跟保守派難能一致可貴的有共同的立場大家對於代孕所可能引發的法律問題倫理問題人權問題兒權問題都感到擔心"},{"start":278.607,"end":294,"text":"昨天陳昭芝委員甚至在自己的淬上針對我還有黃婕委員非常多委員的發言一一回應我要說一 你完全沒有回應到重點二 你還是在避重就輕你還是只是想要照顧到你自己的利益"},{"start":294.74,"end":313.556,"text":"請大家想一想 代孕是什麼樣的人需要代孕一 沒有子宮的人二 子宮生病沒有辦法自行懷孕的人還有第三 在同志婚配相關專法成立之後男同志配偶可能也可以用代孕生下自己的小孩而在這些不同群族的樣態上都沒有進行細緻的討論就想要在現在相關的版本裡面"},{"start":318.74,"end":333.759,"text":"用只有十幾條的方法想要硬行通過我不知道後續有多少配套是衛福部你們要出來擦屁股我更不知道還有多少配套是相關人權單位出來呼籲的你們不願意聽甚至不要忘了還有教育部的相關配套"},{"start":334.6,"end":356.951,"text":"而如果台灣的行政人員 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陳委員好"},{"start":16.567,"end":35.848,"text":"部長副局長那我想請教一下最近有幾件大事發生那首先依照時序第一件事情是中共的這個軍演那那是算是史無前例應該是第一或第二大的這個大型的綜合型的軍演那第二部分就是韋國的馬杜洛馬杜洛總統"},{"start":37.423,"end":62.907,"text":"受到這個美國的軍事行動直接逮捕運回這個美國受審這兩件事情我把它當成是分開的事件那個別的事件但是我還是想要請教一下部長跟副局長怎麼看在這個馬杜洛的這個事件之後中國從中有沒有得到什麼樣的啟示對台的軍事行動他的可能性是會增高或者是減低"},{"start":65.779,"end":91.901,"text":"跟委員報告我想中國長期以來就是表示要以這個不管是以脅迫的方式或以武力的方式來改變台海的現狀也就是說要意圖以這個片面來來這個用不斷的各種的這種手段來對我們然後要併吞我們"},{"start":92.799,"end":115.611,"text":"那所以共軍以任何突襲式的手段來發動攻擊本身我想我們都放在我們的想定裡面而且他這種威脅是對所有台灣人民的一種威脅那我們國防部的責任就是要來有效的來抵禦這樣的威脅來實力來嚇阻對方妄動所以我想所有相關的這些"},{"start":117.773,"end":126.728,"text":"方案都在我們的可能想定的範圍之內我們都會跟我們國防部也會跟國安局來做相關的一些預印"},{"start":127.881,"end":156.323,"text":"因為我看到新聞上面有顯示說有國安高層的官員他有提到說在這一次美國成功的軍事行動之後他們認為是可以有效的嚇阻未來中國對台的一些可能的行動因為這證明了美國在情監偵情報的運用跟執行面上面有很傑出跟卓越的能力那有辦法達到這個嚇阻戰爭的可能性不知道部長怎麼看這個國安高層的看法不具名的國安高層"},{"start":157.939,"end":183.606,"text":"我想我們國防部關切的是中國對我們的威脅中國對我們的軍事的威脅那包括剛剛講任何突襲式的這種攻擊都對我們來講是我們國防部所著重的那所以我想國軍一定會應用所有各種的這種的我們的相關的這些"},{"start":185.705,"end":192.128,"text":"聯合檢驗系統來嚴密的掌握這些狀況然後我們對各種的可能的一種"},{"start":195.444,"end":222.271,"text":"可能的行動我們都要有一個應對的一個方案那我們不去我想我不會去評論其他部分我想因為我們所重視光不所重視就是如何確保我們台灣的安全好 謝謝部長我認為首先第一件事情就是過度的樂觀或過度的悲觀來去看待軍事能力特別是中國的軍事能力都是不必要的"},{"start":222.751,"end":244.507,"text":"那第二點我也不認為說中國他在過去這20年的把台海現狀的改變那會因為一次的事件來去加速或者是減緩在過去20年來中國他比較或者說中共他比較在行的是什麼他是可以緩慢的改變現狀所以我們從過去20年來我們看到1999年"},{"start":246.124,"end":268.355,"text":"共機可能只是因為兩國論跨越台海中線那是單一事件在那之後的非常長的時間裡他不太頻繁的跨中線但是在2019年之後他們開始頻繁的改變常態近三年來有一萬五千兩百九十二架次的勤勞也就是說中共的他想要遂行的不是一次性的來去"},{"start":269.335,"end":288.969,"text":"破壞現狀而是透過以十年甚至是二十年為週期緩慢的改變現狀那等到我們察覺之後或者說我們要做反應之後它已經成為既成事實所以說我們接下來我們的國防很重要的一個目的就是不要讓現狀被長期的慢慢的被破壞"},{"start":289.83,"end":309.467,"text":"我們要確保的是說他們不會把繼承事實作為對國際社會做宣傳的一個工具所以我們看到說從過去中線是非常不平凡的到跨越中線到跨越中線到24海里之間到24海里到12海里之間我們看到這個計時是不斷的在踢踏踢踏的響它離我們是越來越迫近"},{"start":310.388,"end":330.56,"text":"過去時有空軍到現在海軍到現在海警到現在從西部到東部從南到北我認為我們不能夠因為任何的單一事件把我們的警惕降低那美國的能力我想還是全世界全球是最有能力做軍事投射的但是另外一方面中共離我們真的非常近所以"},{"start":331.98,"end":344.486,"text":"1.25兆的這個總預算裡面我認為我們也必須要跟在野黨來去很告訴他們很迫切的告訴他們說哪一些是我們現在要面臨極端需要要快速取得的這些午後那"},{"start":345.698,"end":356.772,"text":"剛才也有許多人提到這1.25兆裡面特別是有美國美國的八項對台軍售案它裡面有包含這一個海馬斯的多管火箭還有這些標槍飛彈系統等等的裝備我認為這是為了要"},{"start":362.118,"end":389.868,"text":"確保中共不會緩慢改變現狀我們的有必要的利期那我是希望說我們能夠做的假設這一黨對1.25兆有意見沒關係我們先從這一個已經八項對台軍售案這個地方我們來開始從這個地方我們來開始來討論一下有沒有機會不然我們看到這個時間每次我就看到這一黨立委不斷地在講到說中共已經越來越近了那我就要問那所以呢所以我們要怎麼辦所以你們要怎麼做"},{"start":390.828,"end":414.952,"text":"不要一方面再去講說中共的威脅存在一方面又在誇示中共的軍武的能力但是一方面又不想要增強我方自己的能力這就是在野黨委員我是比較不懂的地方比較弔詭的地方不斷的在誇示中共的能力但是叫你們要增強國防卻又不講話或者是又幫對方講話這件事情是我們沒有辦法理解我們也沒有辦法支持的"},{"start":415.552,"end":433.012,"text":"那我們剛才提到的說除了整個這個台海的現狀的改變之外另外一方面我們跟有盟國家剛才外交部有提到各個國家的不同的看法那我們要把它們聯合起來在南海改變現狀這20年從這個把這個推動大型的填海工程"},{"start":433.613,"end":451.323,"text":"到推動聯海工程之後就說沒有我們那個是和平方案只是要做科研到後來見證寶島之後把寶島建置完之後他說那只是透過這個讓這些海警啊相關的這些救援的這些機隊來去做降落到架設雷達之後說這是只是做防禦範圍到最後架設飛彈系統的時候那他就說沒有這只是沒有針對任何一個國家"},{"start":456.286,"end":480.737,"text":"但是在那20年之內 填島造礁然後到填島 把火砲都做好了把雷達做好了 把飛彈都做好了這就是緩慢的改變現狀這就是現在我們面臨的問題所以我也想要請教部長我們如果不是遇到一次性的這種大型的襲擊而是現在已經變成新常態了我們到底要怎麼樣二指數他們不斷地再往前進一次一次地切得越來越近了"},{"start":481.638,"end":501.846,"text":"那我們必須 你說要劃下紅線一號我們有什麼樣反制的方式才不會讓他們緩慢的改變現狀我想我們所要強調的是說中國的這個威脅確實存在而且日趨嚴峻這件事情國連一定要有所警覺"},{"start":502.881,"end":528.411,"text":"那我們強化我們的自我防衛的能力不管在應對灰色地帶的侵擾或者是應對可能的全面的一個入侵我們都要做好萬全的一個準備那對這樣的一個準備我們當然是希望我們透過這些特別條例來快速籌獲可視戰力滿足我們防衛作戰的一個需求我們希望當然得到大院委員的支持"},{"start":530.433,"end":552.214,"text":"部長我的意思是說沒關係這個之後再說好沒關係我是說每一次他們就越來越近那我們沒有辦法阻止這個緩慢的進程有沒有相關的戰略或戰術讓他們不要再靠近來去執行他們的這個戰術的細節因為我們現在看到從中線到24到12現在是甚至有10彈進入24嘛"},{"start":553.755,"end":581.084,"text":"那我的意思就是說我們接下來的下一步要怎麼做不然他不斷的切切切就這個部分我簡要的回答委員兩個第一個就是說我想我們運用聯合勤政手段來預先來預應這個可能的一個共軍可能的行動這是第一點第二點我們的突發狀況處置規定我們要隨時來檢討所以我們針對這一次的軍演我們似乎也做AR我們來檢討我們各項的一個處置的作為"},{"start":581.806,"end":606.339,"text":"那也要預印以後可能面對更有嚴峻的作為的時候我們應該要如何應處我想這個都是我們應該要做的但詳細的內容我想也不便在這邊做一個公開的說明沒關係我們要的是就是結果嘛結果就是盡量不要再靠近那不要靠近的其他戰術什麼作為這個麻煩國防部可以來跟包含海巡署一起來思考一下好不好是 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你應盡之責任而降敵"},{"start":59.629,"end":83.018,"text":"這在法律上都很明確因為投敵跟降敵這個文字它本來就有然後它本來也有相對應的解釋所以這個應該不是問題所以真正剛剛前面有委員提到說這個可能有不明確什麼等等之類的我覺得這可能有點誤會但是往下因為接下來因為這一次的預備犯這個預備犯有稍微擴張對不對這個我待會再談"},{"start":86.98,"end":115.856,"text":"因為我們投敵跟降敵目前我們在法律的定義有兩個層次的問題我們要注意第一個就是我們投敵跟降敵呢到底是指平時戰時都有還是只有戰時平時戰時都有平時戰時都有嘛然後這第一個然後第二個就是說呢我們投敵因為敵畢竟還是要有一個定義嘛就是要有一個敵人的定義那因為我們這個敵人因為我們現在比如說我們有一些修法是用境外敵對勢力啊等等之類的但我們的外患還有我們若干群刑法一直都寫敵人"},{"start":117.036,"end":139.859,"text":"那因為敵人到底要怎麼定義有可能會有剛剛有前面委員講到的這個定義問題但我們的法院其實是不是已經有針對敵人這個部分有做過說明跟委員做個報告按照陸海空軍刑法第十條所謂的敵人就是與我國交戰或武力對視之國家或團體那按照我們現在司法書的見解"},{"start":141.383,"end":169.868,"text":"中共與我們就是武力對視一個狀態他就是我們國軍的敵人很明確的所以在這邊呢我們就釐清一下就是說呢按照法律的定義還有我們現在這個法院的解釋敵人的定義是明確但這個敵人的定義按照剛剛這個市長提到的是在平時跟戰時都通用對不對都通用那我們再往下看就是說所以我們今天講這個以言語為宜人效忠之表示這個也是平時戰時都用嗎"},{"start":171.688,"end":184.714,"text":"都有如果是這個樣子的話我們看一下我們這一個右邊我們右邊這邊附的是刑法的外患罪刑法的這一個外患罪我們在106跟107其實我覺得107算是類型豐富就是軍隊交付敵國的交付敵國將要塞等等之類去交付或者帶敵國招募軍隊傷禍軍人不執行等等之類的它的類型多"},{"start":199.78,"end":217.041,"text":"但是我們刑法的外患罪有一個特色就是外患罪適用的這個對象是非常廣泛的所以剛剛這個前面的委員有提到說這個是不是一般人都會用啊什麼等等之類的其實我覺得有一件事情應該是要讓國人知道就是我們刑法的外患罪其實已經定在那邊了"},{"start":217.802,"end":239.836,"text":"它其實一般人就已經可以用了所以它已經存在了它不是說這次修法才新訂進去的這是從以前到現在所以如果對於一般人民能不能夠適用有所疑慮的話其實應該來修外患罪這是第一個第二個就是在外患罪這一邊這個刑度就是我畫起來的地方因為它畢竟它的身分是一般人就可以用"},{"start":240.416,"end":266.868,"text":"那他的刑度是無期徒刑7年以上他的加重注底甚至可以到死刑無期徒刑然後他的預備跟陰謀是3到10那因為他的類型算清楚所以如果用這個清楚的類型去抓那個預備跟陰謀都可以到3到10的話我反而覺得倒過來看我們這一次的修法因為這次的修法是陸海軍軍刑法他針對是軍人不是一般人因為一般人其實回歸外患罪就已經有很多種類型了"},{"start":267.788,"end":295.214,"text":"但是我們這一次在於效忠表示這件事是一到齊這個刑度的平衡上面有沒有想要再考慮看看各位委員說明一下有關於我們這個刑度我們其實是考量整個違反效忠國家執事罪上所有的犯罪一個態樣跟他所身的危害然後參考一個刑度的一個級距表我們是有參考這樣所以訂出來的"},{"start":295.934,"end":317.616,"text":"我覺得在逐條的時候我們或許可以再深入一下因為我如果單單只看陸海工軍刑罰我覺得那個刑度設計看起來是沒問題它符合這個本來陸海工軍刑罰的級距但因為外患罪它反而沒有那個軍人的身份它都可以適用嘛那在外患罪這部分的刑度設計其實很高那其實這有兩種方向一個就是我們陸海工軍刑罰這邊我們不動就是按照這次修法還是用這個一到七"},{"start":318.297,"end":342.311,"text":"但反而外患那邊可能要要做一個相對應的調整那我也不是說外患這要減輕因為外患這減輕非常奇怪外患是一件很嚴重的事情所以呢這是我在這一個後面有提出來的就是說你看我們現在有陳平時期我們有戰爭時期中間有這種灰色地帶就是可能接近戰爭了可能這個衝突變多了那我們現在等於是針對軍人這個部分這一次在這邊要討論這個OK那"},{"start":344.432,"end":368.326,"text":"其他的比如說民選公職公務員等等之類的這個還沒有納入這可能只能回到一般的外患罪那就會變成說我們等於是處理了其中一塊但其他塊沒有處理這當然這不是國防部的事情這應該是整個司法法制的事情但我的意見就是說因為今天通敵還有今天要效忠等等的類型太多了然後身分也很多元"},{"start":368.886,"end":388.949,"text":"所以如果我們要做的事情很有可能是這其實我已經提出來了就是看司法法制能不能夠看在接下來提出就是我們的外患罪應該做一些刑度上的從輕到重的修正因為它可能有比較輕微的有可能很嚴重的那這個如果按照不同的類型先做分類再按照不同的身分就是回到我剛剛上面的"},{"start":389.369,"end":410.222,"text":"可能元首的政黨的負責人的政務官的公務員的退休這一塊其實最近都有在處理這是在另外一包會處理所以等於是我們等於有處理軍人跟退休軍公教政兩包那其他這些目前來講如果沒有相對應的處理的話有可能會有點失衡就是我們剛剛講的你跟外患罪比較之下陸海工軍刑法有可能過輕"},{"start":411.283,"end":438.772,"text":"所以在這樣的一個情況之下希望就是說我們在接下來的時候這個趕快修過去之後其他的能夠做一些相對應的修正這邊是一個建議那我知道今天司法院的這個邢士林副廳長也在法務部的檢察司司長也在所以但我就沒有要回應但是就是我覺得這個接下來可能要同步的來做那不然的話我們可能沒有辦法但是會交代說為什麼我們就是有針對軍人那其他的地方為什麼都還沒有動那因為時間差不多了以上謝謝好 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委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員鄭正鈐等20人擬具「人工生殖法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三（三）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】【不詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T10:12:50+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T10:16:33+08:00","duration":223,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":35.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.70034375,"end":105.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.78659375000001,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.35596875,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.99971875,"end":215.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.86159375000003,"end":222.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.59096875,"end":224.41784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.03,"end":29.225,"text":"其實從之前一直在提這個人工生殖法的時候那關於代理孕母其實我們在地方都聽到很多的聲音大家會覺得說大有共識的部分可以先過那這個有關代理孕母的這個部分其實在基層會有很多反對的聲音因為不是利用自己的子宮是用別人的子宮生下來的小孩那另外就是說我們今天也聽到很多"},{"start":30.325,"end":57.178,"text":"這個我們朋友還有這個基層希望就是說這個代理孕母生下來的孩子如果萬一萬一如果這個代理孕母因為身體產生變化因為要生一個小孩自己本身的這個身體荷爾蒙一定會有很大的變化那如果他已經沒辦法再承受這樣的一個變化想要終止這個終止這樣的一個懷孕那"},{"start":58.758,"end":79.065,"text":"後續的影響是不是有保障到代理孕母我覺得說今天討論人工生殖法有關代理孕母的部分既然有這麼多大家有不同的意見而且沒有共識我們希望也要跟社會溝通萬一如果這樣倉促上路"},{"start":80.005,"end":104.805,"text":"倉促上路其实会引起很多的地方的人士会影响很多人也会造成很多的一个反弹那另外我听到就是说除了一个就是代理孕母如果他不想再怀孕想要终止怀孕会碰到这样的一个问题那另外如果说这个孩子生下来是有问题的话"},{"start":105.854,"end":131.366,"text":"那原本這個拜託人家就是代孕的或者代理孕母或者是這個原本拜託的這個不想要接受這個孩子的話那這個孩子要怎麼辦所以我覺得說其實會有很多的問題需要跟社會上溝通那這個法條上面也沒有寫得很清楚我覺得這個會變成一個很大的問題"},{"start":132.526,"end":152.588,"text":"另外我要再講一個除了今天這個人工生殖法的一個修法那這個在前年我們通過有關這個80歲免巴氏量表那時候因為大家也很這個在我們未還委員會也經過一些討論那也這樣子上路之後就我最近在地方聽到"},{"start":153.889,"end":174.547,"text":"就是說會衝擊到很多的這個造福員的工作所以我覺得說一個法案要通過應該是要充分的討論而且要跟社會溝通那如果今天你不充分的討論也不跟社會溝通那未來倉促上路之後發生的這個問題"},{"start":175.888,"end":190.702,"text":"也這個變成說中央政府要來扛那也會受害的是我們一般的百姓所以我看到今天的這個人工生殖法有關代理孕母有這麼多的疑義那我們希望就是說透過今天"},{"start":191.683,"end":215.292,"text":"大家可以好好的討論好好的溝通不要沖不要倉促的一個上路那倉促的上路不只是影響到我們的這個婦女朋友也會影響到未來這個代孕生下來這個孩子的一個權益所以我們希望這個召委還有所有的這個委員大家要好好的思考要跟社會溝通那也要好好的討論以上"},{"start":219.972,"end":221.997,"text":"接下來請陳培宇委員來做花言"}]}},{"id":"166982","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166982","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5430c5218e9bd150d8cbf20238130c06451e25119d80932fbaf2f3f07a615f4351a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:24:40 - 10:29:15","影片長度":"00:04:35","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「人工生殖法修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十四) 委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一) 委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員鄭正鈐等20人擬具「人工生殖法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三（三）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】【不詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T10:24:40+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T10:29:15+08:00","duration":275,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.152843750000002,"end":30.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.620968750000003,"end":34.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.46846875,"end":40.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.307218750000004,"end":54.570968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.62159375,"end":79.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.66409375,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.40159375,"end":118.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.74659375,"end":119.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.57346875,"end":148.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.85159375,"end":158.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.31409375,"end":159.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.22534375,"end":174.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.95721875,"end":175.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.05409375000002,"end":176.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.96534375000002,"end":215.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.53721875000002,"end":244.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.66346875000002,"end":246.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.06409375,"end":253.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.89846875,"end":265.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.36034375,"end":271.76909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.249,"end":28.954,"text":"好謝謝主席那我想我重申我的兩個很重要的立場就是說我們一直在跟孩子講身體自主權身體自主權的概念是什麼是我的身體只有我決定別人可不可以來觸碰我那理所當然的身體自主權等到他18歲的時候他應該也還有享有這樣子的權利不分他的出生不分他是不是貧窮貴賤他到18歲都應該可以來決定他自己的子宮是只能夠來得養育自己的要決定要養育自己的小孩"},{"start":30.242,"end":53.643,"text":"所以還有另外一個重點是說我們在講兒少最佳利益我們在講兒童在整個過程之中在代孕的過程之中他變成是一個商品他今天有沒有身體的狀況在代孕的過程中發生了什麼樣子的問題他會因此而被遺棄或是因此而遭受到什麼樣子的選擇那我覺得這個就是要回到兒少最佳利益的一個討論"},{"start":54.824,"end":83.917,"text":"那所以呢我要强调一个东西是代孕从来不是只是出借子宫怀孕不是一个零风险的服务在孕期的过程之中他可能会遇到妊娠的问题糖尿病的问题等等有太多太多的问题了所以我们不是说肚子借了十个月就能够下班他牵扯到的是一个人的身心工作家庭生活的全面的付出还有刚刚讲的可能失能的或者是死亡的风险"},{"start":85.538,"end":102.875,"text":"國家在立法的時候不能只有看一個需求去把另一端承擔的風險當成是背景轉嫁給其他其他人來承擔那特別是說懷孕是一個24小時是一個長時間10個月的高強度付出所以他也不應該是變成是一個契約邏輯"},{"start":104.597,"end":118.994,"text":"因為現實上可能會出現誰有權力來決定要不要剖腹要不要檢胎要不要做侵入性的檢查隱私這些都會讓代理孕母變成一個被管理的人被監控的對象那"},{"start":119.835,"end":147.916,"text":"特別是說我想我們現在呢一直以來我們就像剛剛培餘委員說的我們其實都可以好好討論我們真的還有時間可以來把這個爭議上面來去做更清楚的釐清我們也可以開更多的會議來去了解特別是對於兒童的權利因為兒童的權利核心還是要再強調一次他是以兒少最佳利益為原則這是世界上196個國家都同意的一個概念也都在執行的概念那"},{"start":148.917,"end":174.36,"text":"如果沒有以委託方的攜帶為優先那如果說到時候出現爭議的時候到底這個孩子到底該怎麼辦誰來以他的利益為一個最終的考量呢那孩子之後長大之後他有沒有權利知道自己是怎麼來的有沒有權利知道自己的出生的相關的重要資訊這些都不是一句簽好的契約就能夠解決的這也是我們現在還沒有充分討論的部分"},{"start":176.121,"end":201.17,"text":"我想孩子需要的還是一個穩定安全可靠的可被照顧的關係以及法律的地位不是事後用錢來進行風險的相關的處理那此外呢我還是想要強調一個代理孕母其實往往背後往往是父權文化的壓力當傳宗接代血緣至上無後為大這些符號一再的去壓迫在女性的身上代孕的制度就只是"},{"start":201.65,"end":214.406,"text":"把傳統的概念用新的現代的方式重新包裝把女性重新變成是一個工具化變成是一個延續血脈的解決方式而不是一個擁有完整權力的個體"},{"start":216.604,"end":244.692,"text":"所以家庭權及生育權保障的是我能決定要不要生還有跟誰生不是我一定要擁有一個有我基因的孩子更不是我可以使用第三者的身體來達成國家不能用權力的語言去合理化對另一個人身體自主與健康安全的侵害同時也不能用大人的願望跟期待去壓過孩子的最佳利益與基本權益"},{"start":245.752,"end":270.845,"text":"所以我想代孕在現在還是有很大的這個爭議那我覺得我們是可以優先來處理現在比較有共識的就是單身女性以及女同志的部分那我覺得這樣子才能夠去順利的去推進我們的人工生殖法也能夠真正的去回應整個社會的一個期待 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麻煩國防部長以及空軍參謀長還有我們副參謀總長執行官有請部長參謀長還有副參謀長執行官 謝謝"},{"start":14.975,"end":35.76,"text":"是 王委員好待會兒我會就GKS NMC還有112G來就教於三位不過現在請問因為昨天我們看那個鏡頭拍到我們F16V墜海的時候有個火光那個火光到底是"},{"start":37.32,"end":45.336,"text":"彈射座椅的噴煙還是飛機本身的火焰那另外現在搜救的情形是不是可以簡單一分鐘說明一下"},{"start":48.144,"end":72.735,"text":"因為現在這個事實調查還在進行中所以說我們會針對所有的市政來做一個研判那在研判出來之前我們這邊不便做一個臆測所以說這個火焰的部分我們有看到媒體上的我們也去調閱這個監視器我們目前事實調查還在進行中因為那個火焰如果是彈射座椅的那它就是人跟飛機是分開了"},{"start":74.11,"end":93.679,"text":"那如果本身是飛機機體的那我想這兩個事情會對搜救的方向會有差異我們當然對任何非安事件我們自己空軍出來的沒有最後的非安判定我們不要去臆測這些臆測其實非常不妥當但這個是已經彰顯出來的現象你們的研判上那個火焰到底是什麼"},{"start":95.354,"end":121.641,"text":"因為這個 還是跟委員報告因為這個現在我們的非安調查都還在進行這些事證包含了所有的錄音超鑑當天的狀況 攝影機的這個鏡頭等等目前都在收整所以說這邊還是跟委員報告我們不做太多的臆測 避免誤導好 我尊重那我希望我們盡快把我們的弟兄帶回來是 我們搜救的想定不會侷限於某一部分我們會全面性的來做好 我先講GCAS的部分"},{"start":122.742,"end":141.683,"text":"這個防撞的系統在目前的進度我聽說已經完成系統整合是否為真美軍已經在做是非的動作系統整合已經完成了現在在做是非是非完成之後下一步是什麼"},{"start":142.845,"end":161.224,"text":"它是非有很多的系統要去做一個整合因為它的控制非常的複雜而且它的要整個接替飛行員的操作所以說在安全上這是非常重要它是分很多階段來做雖然說我們只聽到一個飛撤但是飛撤裡面的科目非常多飛撤不同的東西 項目會不一樣"},{"start":162.044,"end":190.543,"text":"這個是takeover他要把你的操縱桿接管回來這個測試本身也有危險性非常危險所以說慎重起見也是為什麼是說他是在全數位上面的飛機已經運用這麼多年但是在類比上要轉成數位飛控要花這麼多的時間舉個簡單的例子跟委員報告就是說我今天蓋一棟新房子可能很快但是在一個老房子裡面去把它整成新房子那可能要比原來要花更多的時間"},{"start":191.704,"end":215.703,"text":"因為我們現在要了解因為這個東西對維繫我們飛行員的生命安全非常重要那我為什麼要特別請這個副執行官上來因為我們當時是2018年6月4號吳彥廷中校 後來追風中校他在北部空域的五分山撞山當時就是我在那邊提質詢然後我們快速在9月份把他列入預算"},{"start":216.383,"end":234.159,"text":"然後隔年2019年把GCAS列為我們希望在原來的奉展專案如果叫做1.0是沒有這個的後來就希望把全部的F16AB型的奉展專案追加等於2.0加了這個項目進去我記得第二年你就是參謀長"},{"start":235.26,"end":262.631,"text":"你就是現在參謀長這個位置所以你這個狀況比較了解所以目前這個GCAS防撞的系統已經在進行飛測那飛測還有很多項目要做飛測做完下面就是要組裝嘛那我們現在F16AB提升到F16V本身機體要跟他銜接的裡面的不管是裡面的線路的這個裝束各方面有沒有做備變等他要來了"},{"start":263.231,"end":286.147,"text":"是的 這個現在有關這個防撞系統最主要現在在測試的就是它的非控電腦那其他的有關線數和結構的部分實際上這已經備料並且完成設計所以線數已經備變 是 線數然後我們現在等這個系統測試完成就是跟線數要連結在一起就是組裝其他的這個硬體 設備以及設計的部分都已經完成了我知道大家都擠"},{"start":287.088,"end":301.941,"text":"我們都不希望有自己的弟兄在那裡發生事情要等著搜救都是某個人的親人 孩子或丈夫是我們的跑者嘛所以沒有人會希望這個慢剛才講2018年6月4號吳彥霆到2019年列入預算當然我曉得對一般人來講"},{"start":308.797,"end":325.832,"text":"為什麼不能隔年就裝好為什麼不能第三年就裝好我們都急但是這個問題在哪裡剛才其實各位有說明過但是我想要讓國人更清楚了解過去GCAS是用在全數位戰鬥機從來沒有用在類比式的戰鬥機"},{"start":327.213,"end":355.029,"text":"而全數位戰鬥機是在Block 70這個Block 70之後它就內建在上面了所以我們全新的66架內建就有GCAS但是F16AB型它是類比式的你用數位式的操控要去接管Take over它的這個過程那個有點像特斯拉你要讓它的自駕系統要裝在你家的手排的老爺車一樣這樣大家都聽得懂了"},{"start":355.836,"end":358.125,"text":"就是我原來的舊款的車型"},{"start":360.863,"end":388.417,"text":"不是數位的你要把特斯拉的全自動駕駛我們現在大概任何車款都有自動駕駛你要把它裝到之前上兩個世代的老爺車你不測試完成你上路你放心嗎會有問題所以GCAS的部分我們請空軍相關單位把相關進度要確實一個進度一個節點要讓我們委員會知道第二個我要請教三位的MMC的問題這一個模組化的任務電腦"},{"start":390.916,"end":403.466,"text":"它看起來這一次是有故障的情形因為它在呼的這個它在無線電腦有呈現這個任務電腦本身到底有多重要有人說它是飛機的大腦它到底整合了哪些東西"},{"start":405.243,"end":431.705,"text":"就如同您所提的它就是一個飛機的一個大腦的這個功能所有的導航 飛行 控制 還有武器都是藉由這一個任務電腦來處理所以是Module Mission Computer它裡面包含飛行最重要的姿態核心 是高度 速度 方位還有它武器系統相關方面好 它一旦失效"},{"start":432.967,"end":452.345,"text":"你們兩位都是飛行員NMC一旦失效在飛行上會有什麼影響班委員因為就是因為這個系統非常的複雜所以說它的故障的太陽也是非常的多所以說要看它故障的太陽是Level 1 Level 2它影響到的裝備都有不一樣"},{"start":453.362,"end":472.379,"text":"那它失效了 比方說我們很重要的飛行的高度 飛行的姿態我們有一個備用姿態儀在飛機上所以旁邊有一個備用姿態儀在飛機的右上角 廊板的右上角上面有一個備用的姿態儀所以當MNC故障之後 我在看因為他們有個黃卡嘛 根據黃卡我要排除嘛那排除要花幾秒"},{"start":474.219,"end":489.149,"text":"他做一個 這個所以跟委員報告他的故障太陽非常多有些是故障他自己會恢復有些你要去Reset的電門九成以上他都會恢復成這樣那恢復時間要多久這個要Depends他的故障的狀況大概是幾秒鐘就可以恢復那個負責任總長"},{"start":494.853,"end":518.249,"text":"包委員這個MNC它這個電腦實際上就跟我們使用這個一般的電腦情況一樣它有時候是站態性的可是它會告訴我們暫時的站狀態的給我們一個故障代碼可是實際上在飛機上並沒有任何影響它就過一會它自動恢復因為我們如果進到雲裡面或者在特殊狀況海天一線我在空間上就我這一個大腦裡面顯示的飛行姿態如果暫時"},{"start":520.14,"end":540.042,"text":"失效的時候會產生問題嗎最糟糕的情況就是它的這個對飛機的這個姿態的判斷的顯示會不正確可是飛機上還有一個備用系統我們飛行員按照黃卡的處置就會立刻參考備用系統黃卡排除黃卡建議看這個相關的備用的姿態儀可是 是的"},{"start":540.302,"end":569.444,"text":"可是因為當時飛行員如果碰到的情況是都是複雜多變的雖然這一個情況發生那座艙裡頭還沒有別的情況影響到飛行員其他的判斷和操作尤其是有沒有像類似在發生空間迷向生理上又受到影響的時候在這個對飛行員的處置上因為在緊急的狀況的時候哪怕是一秒兩秒其實都是攸關的那這一個在F16AB提升它會有這些站態或者是失效失能的狀態"},{"start":571.445,"end":586.422,"text":"它發生的頻率還有你們有沒有提出什麼要求原廠公司進行修改因為不管多少比例這個其實是有危險性的是的這一部分實際上從20多年前我們第一次接受AF16所有的"},{"start":587.063,"end":613.477,"text":"F16都一樣一接收的一段一定會有一段時間是這個系統要重新適應這個新的狀況並且在這個ROM的過程中我們會慢慢發現缺點大概都是ROM一陣子以後它就會穩定那F16現在這個新裝的這個新型的MNC在今年年初以後它的這個新的軟體上機以後在去年年初上機以後它的這個故障率已經明顯的降低現在的狀況已經趨於穩定它的故障率並沒有"},{"start":613.877,"end":640.175,"text":"高於其他的系統我們去年有對MMC做系統的更新一直在做每隔一陣子就會做那更新之後你說會降低因為這個速度 速電頻率我今天時間不夠沒辦法問我最後只請教一個問題因為時間關係我聽相關的同仁我們的袍澤弟兄說1122機的求生發報機連在潛水的時候那個潛水 深水潛水的時候都會失效這一次它也沒有訊號出來我們的1122機到底有沒有問題"},{"start":643.797,"end":669.315,"text":"112機是美軍現役的求生發報機所以說我們也是經過爭取以後因為它裡頭有戰場加密功能也是經過爭取以後美軍才開放供售給我們那當然這是無線電機無線電機在水只要是無線電的東西在水底下它的信號當然都是沒辦法出來的所以說它並沒有說是因為觸水就失效而是它受到這個物理"},{"start":670.476,"end":688.873,"text":"這個環境的限制如果它真的沉到水裡的話它當然這個無線電信號是沒辦法發出來的電波發不出來那它是彈射出來它就自動啟動還是人要去按它我們現在都是因為要讓飛行員在彈射的時候受到激勵它就可以自動發射信號所以說它就是在彈射的那一刻它就應該要發射信號它應該會自動發射"},{"start":690.675,"end":705.066,"text":"那觸水到水裡面是因為那個波紋沒辦法傳遞它另外還有一個海水觸發的功能所以說實際上它是有雙重保障的就是你彈射出來它會觸發你碰到海水它會觸發這些都是維繫生命非常重要的裝備我是覺得要經常性高比例的抽驗"},{"start":706.365,"end":727.533,"text":"因為這個1122機如果你說觸水它會觸發會打開來可是到水裡面有一定的深度它的無線電波又傳不出來我們周邊都是水域嘛這飛行員在每次在上機在著裝的時候都有相關的測試的要檢查另外從我們檢視從114年到現在這個1122機都沒有故障的記錄好 謝謝 那我時間到這邊我們後續我們再繼續追蹤"}]}},{"id":"17186","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17186","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d78fb36a44e90e4697ee42f9729c6abfd081761262ea6c52f6a7e99cb682690205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員陳秀寳等22人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「大學法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員柯志恩等21人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員翁曉玲等 16 人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員林月琴等17人擬具「大學法第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-08T08:35:42+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T12:34:00+08:00","duration":14298,"影片長度":"03:58:18","委員發言時間":"08:35:42 - 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楊瓊英 徐欣盈 翁曉玲 高金素美提出書面質詢決議一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":1597.384,"end":1598.945,"text":"請問各位委員 委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1617.403,"end":1640.408,"text":"那在場的委員未答議決人數3人那議事入站不確定今天的議程是審查大學法部分條文修正草案相關草案共13案包括了委員徐欣盈等19人委員羅廷偉等16人委員范雲等16人台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":1642.967,"end":1669.747,"text":"委員陳秀寶等22人委員廖先祥等18人委員柯志恩等21人台灣民眾黨黨團還有委員翁曉琳等16人委員伍麗華等19人委員范雲等16人委員林月琴等17人委員林一錦等21人擬拒的草案目前就僅進行詢答"},{"start":1672.537,"end":1701.616,"text":"那我們現在就先介紹在場的委員現在委員還在準備當中沒有出現我們就現在介紹與會的官員首先是教育部的常務司長朱俊彰歡迎教育部高教師司長廖高賢機職司司長楊玉慧"},{"start":1704.665,"end":1718.688,"text":"財政部負稅署專門委員羅佩如財政部財政資訊中心檢任分析師葉坤明行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員王淺凱法務部檢察官楊石宇"},{"start":1731.598,"end":1749.479,"text":"好 現在先請提案委員進行提案說明好 因為目前沒有我本人代表民眾黨也沒有做提案說明接著請教育部的朱次長來進行報告報告時間10分鐘其他相關機構的書面意見就請一併的參閱了"},{"start":1758.53,"end":1777.246,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生 大家好今天本人應邀列席大學法部分條文修正草案進行報告請向各位委員對於高等教育發展議題的關注跟建議表達衷心的謝忱並請各位能夠給予本部業務及持續的監督以及支持"},{"start":1778.367,"end":1803.325,"text":"这次部里面对于委员所提的修正草案主要的议题我们回应如下第一个 针对范云及林井等委员拟据大学法第五条修正草案有关大学自我评鉴的范畴并纳入教职员参与部分学校认为有助于提升校务治理的透明度以及权益保障第二 针对范云委员 陈秀宝委员柯之恩委员 翁晓琳委员 吴立华委员 林井委员"},{"start":1804.125,"end":1824.344,"text":"以及民众党团拟据大学法第七条修正草案有关大学合并程序需经校务会议审议权益保障及增列公私立合并计划之修法建议现行实务已经含有校务会议审议的程序增列校务会议审议有助于程序更明确令公私立合并的部分"},{"start":1826.278,"end":1842.834,"text":"部分学校认为公私利益的体制差异甚大且涉及到治理资产文化权益等问题建议相关的规范一更周延三 针对泛艺委员 民进委员以及民众党团等理居大学法第九条修正草案"},{"start":1843.254,"end":1865.377,"text":"有关校长领选纳入师生代表及同意机制等部分学校表示认同学生的参与但建议采谈线人数的设计能够尊重各校的自治亦有学校认为私立学校部分应该尊重董事会决定的权责学生团体则是主张至少要有两席的学生代表并设有师生的同意机制第四"},{"start":1866.765,"end":1888.846,"text":"針對范雲委員離去第九條之一修正草案有關校長任期跟續聘的評鑑公校的部分有學校表示目前已經有續聘評鑑制度私校的部分則有學校建議由各校的組織規程制定並尊重董事會決定的權限第五針對范雲等委員離去第九條之二修正草案"},{"start":1889.446,"end":1903.382,"text":"增列校長去職及校務會議提案的機制部分學校認為應維持制度的穩定以避免各校標準不一影響到校務治理的穩定亦有意見指出以避免校長去職的規定比老師解編的程序更寬鬆"},{"start":1904.343,"end":1923.797,"text":"第六 針對范雲等委員擬拒大學法第九條之三修正條文草案擬警等委員擬拒大學法第九條之一條文修正草案針對大學校長因涉刑事案件停止職務等相關規定部分學校表示公校已有相關的停聘的機制私校部分也已於私校法有所規範"},{"start":1925.759,"end":1943.894,"text":"7.針對范雲等委員理據大學法第11條條文修正草案新增跨校學分學程及學位學程及增設教育實驗單位等規定近年來許多大學已經成立了大學系統來進行資源連結或進行跨校的整合這已經是趨勢了目前大學要設置"},{"start":1945.475,"end":1973.294,"text":"教学实验的单位是大学自主事项大学在办理学校形态的实验教育也有学校形态实验教育条例也可以作为依循第八点针对范云等委员你去大学把第13条条文修正草案针对教育实验单位的学术主管的产生方式目前学校要设教学实验的单位是自主事项那学校也有办理学校形态的实验教育条例可以作依循第九"},{"start":1974.314,"end":1995.636,"text":"針對范雲等委員理據大學法第14條之一條人修正草案由外國籍教學或是研究人員來兼任行政主管人員以及增列國立大學契約禁用的資源可以擔任主管的規定查96年教育部已經含釋放寬外國籍教師可以來兼任學術行政主管"},{"start":1995.996,"end":2006.622,"text":"那目前的相关的法规编制外的人员多不得来担任或兼任编制内的单位主管如果要放宽的话可能要考虑到领导统一跟人事考核的状况"},{"start":2007.895,"end":2025.837,"text":"第十點 針對民眾黨團范瑛委員 林瑋琴委員 林一錦委員擬拒大選法第15條條文修正草案有關校務會議學生代表比例增加產生的方式 職員代表產生方式教師代表組成及產生方式訂定校務會議議事規則等事項部分學校主張"},{"start":2026.798,"end":2051.054,"text":"人数应该有弹性学生代表比例以省省的做调整而且代理的制度跟监督委员会要考量其可行性教师团体的认为教师的喜事应该过半学生团体的主张在会议的规消费的规模要做适当的缩减学生代表比例可以提高到四分之一到五分之一具有实质的影响力第十一点针对范允登委员理据大学法第十五条之一修正草案"},{"start":2051.474,"end":2070.317,"text":"有关校会议下设监督校务财务编制议程等委员会部分学校认为目前已经有既有的财务跟监督的机制是应该要保留一些弹性让学校可以跟师生做讨论第12点有关欢迎委员你居到学法第16条条文修正草案要增订"},{"start":2071.337,"end":2091.118,"text":"校务行政的监督校园安全等规划是属于校务会议的审议事项学校表示这是有助于提升学校的效能那也可以由校务会议来做相关的一个审议第十三点针对犯罪委员理居大学法第十六条之一条本修正草案"},{"start":2092.489,"end":2111.326,"text":"规范校事会议的议事规则如提案条件等等那不愿学校认为提案的门槛跟表写方式已有各校事实务的状况来做弹性的定定第十四点针对李锦丹委员李记道学法第十九条修正草案增订教师相关权利义务及教师停聘不需聘之规定及不得违反"},{"start":2112.006,"end":2138.555,"text":"教师法不问学校认为现在的制度已相当的严谨教师团体则认为标准应该更明确并避免过度的授权学校第15点针对范云等委员理巨大学法第20条条文修正草案增列教师评审委员会的评议原则不问学校认为现行条文也有规范建议可以维持现行的做法第16点针对范云等委员理巨大学法第21条条文修正草案有关"},{"start":2139.375,"end":2153.992,"text":"教师凭借相关的注意事项教师团体认为应该兼顾要学们的差异以及要以专业发展为目标而不是太处第十七点针对范云等委员理居大学法第20条之一的修正草案针对编制外教师停聘解聘"},{"start":2155.013,"end":2171.281,"text":"或向教师申评会提出申诉的部分部分学校认为相关制度已经有规范教师团体是认为现在制度保障是不足的第18点有关范围等委员对第32条之3的修正草案学生迁徙户籍至学校的部分"},{"start":2171.661,"end":2188.013,"text":"部份學校表示戶籍是用來做登記管理身份跟行政資源的分配疑似各校的狀況彈性處理學生團體則要主張要保障到學生的戶籍權第19點有張民眾黨團范雲林警委員理據大學法第33條學生草案有關學生權益相關的會議"},{"start":2189.593,"end":2210.281,"text":"應經選舉產生這個部分學校表示比例的部分可以做商議那學生團體這一塊是希望有更大的一個代表權的保障第二十一點有關大學法第三條之三修正條文草案及立警委員理據大學法第三條之一的修正草案要定期辦理學生權益事項好那目前已經有在進行當中第二十一點有關民眾黨團"},{"start":2211.821,"end":2227.756,"text":"大學法33條之6修正草案范營委員大學法33條之4大學法33條之5修正草案離境委員大學法33條之3修正草案有關學生自治事項跟會費的收費學校表示要兼顧財務的透明學生團體是希望能夠有會費穩定跟專款專用22點"},{"start":2230.882,"end":2259.891,"text":"有關民眾黨黨墊針對大學法3條之3修正條文 歡迎委員大學法3條之6修正條文及離境委員大學法3條之4修正草案有關學生會自治事項 學校表示這個部分只要符合法規但是也需要承擔責任由教育部來統一規範 可能難顧名來顧及各校的差異 學生團體的希望要用法律來保障 避免校方過度的介入 第23點有關民眾黨黨大學法3條之4修正草案 歡迎委員"},{"start":2264.994,"end":2278.343,"text":"希望有讓學生會有獨立的空間學校認為這個部分可以已有一定的專屬的會務空間並協裁申請式的方式那學生希望能夠更有獨立自主的使用空間24"},{"start":2281.124,"end":2297.673,"text":"有关民众党的大学法三条之五修正草案范围委员大学法三十三之八修正草案一进委员大学法三条之六修正草案有关支持组织参与公共空间管理部分学校认为这个部分应该可以跟学生一起来共商办理那学生也希望有更"},{"start":2298.573,"end":2307.18,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":2322.233,"end":2336.084,"text":"等針對他的三四五條修正查案有關經濟落實學生權益保障的條件因為涉及到貸款輪桿的提升以及學費保障費的界定有涉及到財政狀況要審慎評估為了回應大學院的要求在今年1月22跟23號"},{"start":2337.765,"end":2358.804,"text":"举行的全国大学校长会议各个大学校院协定会也会针对大学法修正议题做讨论教育部会持续以开放的态度会同大学一起落实整个高教永续的发展以上报告敬请各位委员知道好谢谢朱市长的报告好"},{"start":2360.117,"end":2370.767,"text":"那我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員的質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10時30分"},{"start":2376.773,"end":2400.934,"text":"委員如果有臨時提案請於時時30分前提出並與本會委員伍麗華質詢結束後即進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場就原例不予處理好那現在因為剛好有現在有三位委員在現場的那請問委員對於議事錄有沒有異議或"},{"start":2405.663,"end":2430.77,"text":"沒有 好 謝謝 那就我們議事錄就確定了好 那現在首先就由發言登記第一位的林沛翔委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請朱次長請朱次長"},{"start":2438.298,"end":2456.745,"text":"主席 今天我們談的是大學法 但是我想談大學法修法一個核心的問題也就是這個法可以修 也該修 但是不能用一體適用的方式來修本席從2005 也就是民國94年大學法上一次修訂之後"},{"start":2458.246,"end":2484.055,"text":"整整教了20年的書我在公立大學教過我也在私立大學教過但是這十多年來老實講高校環境已經有大幅度的改變少子化的衝擊大學退場的機制的啟動甚至公私立大學的經營壓力差距不斷擴大學生對於校務參與校園民主的期待也跟過去完全不同但是我想要請教教育部一個最根本的問題"},{"start":2484.975,"end":2496.697,"text":"在於治理結構經費來源跟公共責任高度不同的情況之下真的還能適用同一套法律架構來規範所有的公私立大學嗎"},{"start":2497.901,"end":2519.759,"text":"今天有一份正式聲明是涵蓋全國百語所大專院校的四大大學校院協進會發表的正式聲明他們態度非常清楚他們支持高教的改革但是反對粗糙僵化用一體適用的方式來去做修法"},{"start":2520.748,"end":2537.294,"text":"我想請教教育部一句話,你們有沒有真的聽進高校現場的集體警訊呢?我先這樣問一個第一個重點,教育部是否承認公私立大學在本職上就有存在所謂的治理的差異?"},{"start":2538.454,"end":2567.041,"text":"是 謝謝委員教育部非常認同委員講的說我們不能讓所有大學去穿同一套衣服這也是在過去20年大學法修正以來教育部一直在做的從人才的培育到經費的運用到整個公私立性質的定性當然都完全不一樣以私立大學來講它是私人興學它是要提升公共性那國立大學基本上它的預算資源其實大部分來自於國家"},{"start":2567.461,"end":2593.137,"text":"那當然在一些社會責任的落實以及在一些治理的彈性上它的一個角色也會不一樣以教育部角色就會不同老實講公立大學仰賴的是政府的預算涉及公共資源跟受高度監督但私立大學則是受到董事會的結構跟財務壓力它影響極深但是現行大學法對於兩個治理的責任跟權責限限是長期採取高度一致的規範"},{"start":2593.877,"end":2600.502,"text":"那我想請問教育部在未來修法是否有必要在法律層級明確區分公私立大學的治理設計"},{"start":2601.943,"end":2630.866,"text":"跟文人報告目前如果以大學來講的話比較屬於組織結構或是人才培育教師權益這塊因為這個跟公司比較不會有太大差異的會在大學法規定但是屬於董事會的權責私校的財務經營這塊會在私立學校法去做規範所以在部裡面來講我們確實是有向委員老師講這部大學法等於是我們高等教育的基本法"},{"start":2631.226,"end":2658.423,"text":"如果在制度上面差異不大的話那未來私立大學要用什麼條件來去承擔與公立大學同樣的制度跟成本呢如果說因為現在即便我剛剛委員報告以人才培育來講雖然是統一規定在大學法但是目前教育部其實從我們學位受益法大學法裡面開放一些相關的資源整合事實上是公私立都已經可以各自依照自己的特色去做處理了"},{"start":2659.223,"end":2680.151,"text":"這塊其實教育部做的只是原則性的規範很多時候有時候校長會誤會教育部有規定但事實上教育部是開放讓學校以學位授予來講現在各校都可以長不一樣的學位授予方式出來我認為教育部應該要主動來去區分公私立大學的治理架構我覺得這是未來因為公私立大學"},{"start":2681.231,"end":2708.616,"text":"接受的壓力是不一樣的而且以資源來講公立大學當然比私立大學高得多但是如果以公立大學的規範直接規範私立大學的話這一點也不公平而且這樣會導致說很多沒有必要發生的惡況發生所以這件事情我想請教一部特地本席在這邊特地把它提出來因為這個問題是未來很嚴重的然後第二個問題我也想請教為什麼修法方向是越管越細"},{"start":2710.364,"end":2726.382,"text":"國際的高校治理趨勢是國家定原則 地品值保障而不是鉅細靡遺的管組織跟權限但是這次修法的方向卻是用一套治理架構來去治理所有大學老實說少子化AI衝擊國際競爭加劇的時候"},{"start":2729.085,"end":2741.863,"text":"政府给大学的目前从大学法我们看到来讲并不是弹性而是更多的限制我就想就教育部这样的修法真的能够让大学来因应未来的竞争吗"},{"start":2743.032,"end":2761.466,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員提到很關鍵的問題就是治理角色的部分我們以大學法裡面目前提到的校長遴選其實公立大學校長遴選的一個框架是有在大學法很明確的規定但是私立大學校長遴選則是由董事會他來制定規定主要就是考量董事會的角色"},{"start":2762.246,"end":2787.899,"text":"他在私校经营是有他必须负担相对责任但是我们也应该给他一定的一个经营空间来找到他们认为适合的校长这就已经有就是两套所以我们目前希望是跟市立大学来沟通是说如果可以的话校长临选我们让学生跟老师意见可以适当的进来但是那个临选方式不见得要套用目前公立大学的这一个临选委员会的组成的结构"},{"start":2788.619,"end":2792.686,"text":"這個教育部我們有注意到世紀大學一直在跟我們提這一點我在這邊最後要強調"},{"start":2794.178,"end":2822.07,"text":"我們支持高校改革但是我堅決反對一體適用反對一體適用不等於反對改革而且我要求詐欺性的治理也不代表抗拒進步可是這一點因為我們要因地我們常知道因地失財 因地質疑那國立跟私立本來就不一樣而真正危險的我認為不是監督而是用改革的之名去行方便治理之實"},{"start":2823.03,"end":2835.759,"text":"我想我剛剛有提過第一個是否願意區分公私立大學的自己架構第二個是否願意放棄一體適用的修法思維第三個是否願意展開公聽發起公聽會啟動實質對話而非倉促立法呢"},{"start":2841.124,"end":2855.649,"text":"委員這些我們都非常認同我們會來努力好老師說大學好國家才會好我想這是目前全部人在場人的共識尤其是未來的人才就是今天的學生那如果要我們國力真的增強"},{"start":2856.209,"end":2884.656,"text":"我們現在看到很多不只是少子化之外我們也是在遇到AI的衝擊國際的衝擊各方面的衝擊如果我們今天在大學法上面只是單純的讓治理更方便而不是從根本來去進步大學的制度的話這是對於未來國家的競爭力一個非常嚴重的打擊本席希望說大學好國家才會好國家才會強但前提是政府不要把大學修到動彈不得"},{"start":2886.347,"end":2903.84,"text":"非常认同也谢谢委员指导我想公司力自己结构不同我们一定会特别关注那属于师生权益保障学生的公共参与我想这一块公司就没有不一样那这个部分我们也会来跟大学沟通以渐进适当的方式来进行谢谢委员因为一个大学里面有很多主体"},{"start":2905.241,"end":2929.564,"text":"師生職員甚至還有校友是這些主體如果沒有用一個公開一公聽會或者是直接對話的方式讓每個群體都知道說大學法到底是怎麼回事未來弊端無窮我希望今天本席的質詢能夠讓教育部聽到這是代表全體高叫的聲音好謝謝委員知道好謝謝林沛翔委員官員請回座"},{"start":2933.857,"end":2943.441,"text":"現在請柯志恩委員質詢好 謝謝莊委我們現在請主次長委員好"},{"start":2950.825,"end":2969.566,"text":"市长好刚刚您配相委员特别提到了希望公司利益会有不一样那我个人认为对于这一点来说是很多人的期待但是我觉得做不到为什么因为每个人都是领教育部的钱光是教育部的补助就钳制了所有所谓的独立自主的一个发挥的一个空间这应该是一个存在的事实吧"},{"start":2971.872,"end":2993.339,"text":"包括你们所有的计划当中即使私立学校他必须要承担最大的一个责任因为他的收费都是来自于这个学费但是呢因为要拿到教育部不管是任何的一些的补助升更 卓越等等都有你们的criteria如果说你不要去遵循的话你就拿不到这些钱所以像所有的台湾大学就叫教育部大学没有任何的特色"},{"start":2994.019,"end":3020.434,"text":"所以说呢这也是一个存在的事实那我们今天来讨论这个大学法我说实在的身为大学校长曾经的这个我们的郑校长应该是今天来接受备询的因为他最了解因为他有自己的实务经验就很可惜今天没有看到他除了这点可惜之外呢我也觉得非常的可惜就是我们这个会期所提到的每一个教育的法案包括大学法营养午餐专访偏向条例都没有行政院办"},{"start":3020.954,"end":3039.605,"text":"所以说呢这个没有行政院版包括我们的学习方法也是被逼出来的当没有行政院版的时候呢其实我们在这边的讨论很难有任何一个定调然后呢我昨天也看到你昨天10点02分我们接到教育部给我们的这个你们的报告然后我真的觉得你们的这个联络人非常的辛苦"},{"start":3040.245,"end":3060.557,"text":"然后到了十点多才有这份报告表示一修又再修就跟我们大学法一样已经二十年没有大修了所以我们期望能够看到一个不管是学生或是老师比较能够具体的一个回应就我刚刚非常仔细看的次长你刚念了很多由于很多的法你就是只要是不是太"},{"start":3061.397,"end":3078.252,"text":"关系太多你就会觉得表达教育部的立场然后呢真的大家比较关切的你就把学校立场跟学生立场分别并层但是我还是不知道他这个教育部的态度在哪里那我也知道四个大学协议会昨天分别发表了一个声明嘛对不对"},{"start":3078.712,"end":3098.467,"text":"然后呢我们1月23、24两天有大学校长会议嘛很多事情来说的话不用等到那个时候因为这部大学法从我2016年当立委的时候都已经在讨论的到现在为止所讨论的条文那个学生会会长那个已经不晓得已经换了几个了讨论的问题还是一样我们就一一来去看"},{"start":3099.855,"end":3127.791,"text":"前面我还是要提到的整个的诉求点还是来自锁定两个校园民主跟学生实质参与因为学生的诉求认为我们都是属于90%都是学生学生是成年人他们当然有权利来做公共事务的一个检讨但是呢有反对者认为说这些部分来说的话因为牵涉的分文很多可能不想让学生承担太多的角色你这两个对于所谓的校园民主自主"},{"start":3128.231,"end":3157.106,"text":"这个如果在整个背后的哲理没有办法脉络没有把它清楚的话我们永远在这个角色上面很难一来去看嘛我们先看我们学生的校务会议的比例嘛过去来说嘛已经非常多对不对这个次长你到目前为止也没有办法给我们说教育部也不敢给我们定一个标准存在嘛你们现在的标准在哪里政治大学是八分之一是目前全国最多的但是呢很多学校其实八分之一如果你学校没有社会科学学院的话其实很难做得到的"},{"start":3157.546,"end":3168.049,"text":"那这个怎么办所以目前为止你们的比例在哪里有10%15%有1%到底交易部的态度在哪里这是我说的嘛你们都并层你们态度在哪里数字在哪里"},{"start":3169.073,"end":3196.136,"text":"跟委員報告目前大學法規定是校務會議代表是十分之一這是十分之一那在先前溝通過大學校長是希望用漸進的方式來做因為像剛剛委員有提到的每個學校學生這次參與的狀況其實不太一樣如果一下子把他拉到一定所以教育部的態度是希望維持十分之一我們是希望能夠漸進的提高我們非常肯認你從2016年就十分之一我到現在20哇塞"},{"start":3198.259,"end":3206.778,"text":"2026的十年了几年了现在目前是希望以八分之一目前为止只有政大做到而已所以你们会提到八分之一吗"},{"start":3207.99,"end":3232.083,"text":"所以你們現在就用漸進的方法來解決這個訴求就對了我只告訴你這就是我剛所提到的嘛很多你沒有辦法提到的部分裡面你就兩岸併成我還是不曉得教育部的態度即使是學生希望能夠提到更高你們現在說用漸層的方法因為考慮到學校方嘛對不對那教育部就是躲在學校方後面或是怎麼樣你們還是不給我們一個部分那學生吃著等"},{"start":3232.583,"end":3242.775,"text":"有没有设置上限有没有办法在校务会议的提案当中至少一名学生代表这件事情你们态度是什么这是学联会特别提出来你们态度是什么"},{"start":3244.465,"end":3264.474,"text":"我個人也跟學生大改正或是學生團也溝通過我們是教育部立場是支持學生能夠更充分的一個空間來參與學校的應付每個人都是充分空間這無庸置疑很明確的具體的部分消防會議的提案至少一名學生代表連署教育部的態度是什麼我們問教育部的態度"},{"start":3265.831,"end":3292.055,"text":"目前我們是剛剛提到我們希望能夠跟校長們溝通一些我是希望能夠漸進的提高那提高以1%來作為一個沒有我說提案我剛已經進入到第三個了是你們剛漸進我提到的那我剛說提案呢提案是至少一名學生連署然後對校長遴選至少納入大學學生代表至少兩名這是學生的意見你們教育部的態度是什麼我沒有正反我不需要你們都給我正反"},{"start":3292.555,"end":3319.825,"text":"我的態度我就質問教育部的態度目前為止是怎麼樣目前大學針對提案的部分有三人可以提案五人提案甚至要經過議題小組提案都有那我們也期待說讓學生有獨立的提案權所以你們在這個大學法的修法裡面你們不會調列出你們的態度是什麼你們就是表達你們的希望慢慢陳補但是你不會把它具體的到底多少放在大學法的條例當中不會"},{"start":3320.605,"end":3342.378,"text":"我們有跟同學做說明說我們希望讓同學生有獨立的提案權這塊是教育部目前在跟大學有沒有辦法會不會入法到條文裡面如果溝通出來有結果再入法還沒有溝通出來啊跟校長們還在做討論跟大學還在做討論但是教育部的立場是希望讓學生有獨立的提案權這個就是我2016年那時候你應該是高教室司長吧我不知道"},{"start":3343.299,"end":3354.054,"text":"答案一模一样当你提升到次长的时候答案还是一样然后呢有关于校长临选的至少两名的这样子的学生代表的话这个部分也还是继续沟通"},{"start":3355.32,"end":3377.602,"text":"這個部分我目前以大學45所公立大學來講裡面其實已經有27所是已經有學生代表在裡面所以下一步我們目前立場也是以希望在公立大學的臨選委員會讓學生代表能夠有至少一名這是我們努力的方向但是到目前為止還是不會入法就對了目前還在溝通階段如果"},{"start":3378.843,"end":3403.366,"text":"校長們因為在2023年校長會他們會去做一些討論好吧 那就在場的委員現在是第11屆到第12屆我絕對相信這個問題還是在繼續溝通當中朱老闆你排到這個部分就是2016年結果是一模一樣的所以我也相信次長你已經有在做一個溝通但是就是誠如我剛剛所提到的校方跟學校方他們在對於所謂的自主的這個部分兩個就是完全不同的"},{"start":3403.846,"end":3431.312,"text":"逻辑脉络所以永远没有一个对焦那我们当然也希望你有更大的一个空间不管从哪一个角度来去看都有一个正当的空间可是学生不断去换老师还是留在学校勿换心仪学生都已经不一样了老师还是抱持着校方还是抱持着相同的一个方式这一点到目前为止如果教育部没有办法明定这个部分来的话那我觉得大学法到目前我们讨论起来真的是讨论心酸的次长"},{"start":3431.852,"end":3450.809,"text":"跟委員報告我個人沒有那麼悲觀的意思是說我覺得這幾年因為委員的努力同學的爭取其實大學已經有關注到這一點包括我們剛剛提到的學生出席校務會議代表比例其實學校擔心的是不確定性因為它每個學校的學制環境不同深入委員體的"},{"start":3451.069,"end":3468.605,"text":"当然是啊我知道啊很多学校每个学生抢着参加大部分的学校是学生根本都找不到人数所以你定了一个比例来说的话满足部分地方但是你有些时候也让校务会也没有办法达成所以大家就开始思考会不会需要有一个上限这些问题都是"},{"start":3469.525,"end":3485.871,"text":"從頭到尾都是所以次長再次加油我只是拋出問題我可以拋出問題但是你教育部不可以你不可以是正反兩方併成給我們到最後大家一翻兩瞪眼你要拿出你們態度那個召委再給我一個時間很快的時間來我們來看一下跟高雄有關這個國家重點"},{"start":3486.451,"end":3513.263,"text":"都是跟高校有關五年將投入的130億要建設我們的園區這沒有錯吧我們上次在這個地方附帶決議希望不要排擠教育部的預算希望由經濟部來編列好了我們來看下面一個鏡頭7月4號卓院長風光在我們高雄陽明交大這些非常的非常的這個國立清華大學教這個交通大學大家還有什麼大南方矽谷次長你也站在旁邊沒錯吧是"},{"start":3514.784,"end":3542.403,"text":"很風光的開動了然後呢目前位置是怎麼樣官委員報告目前高雄市政府已經也已啟動已經投注了費用沒有你目前的計劃到底核定了沒有目前的計劃因為我們會根據上次委員提到他怎麼去把孝季的這樣的量所以呢各位現在我們有現在目前最大的問題是你都給我風光開一半你的計劃還沒有核定沒錯吧各位"},{"start":3543.624,"end":3571.803,"text":"行政院長這麼高興我們的市長這麼高興連那時候的我們的秘書長現在的經濟部長這麼高興校長都擺在這個地方都這麼高興就這個計畫到目前為止沒有核定你相信嗎沒有核定所以你們先偷跑的1.5億好先開始用預備金然後呢我們現在變得9.7億然後呢今年就是我們要省的這是各位不要告訴我沒有這個預算因為這是延續型計畫所以可以執行喔12.6億然後呢"},{"start":3573.664,"end":3589.303,"text":"目前為止我昨天查了這個計劃還在審定當中那我們前面站在那邊都在幹嘛的根本報告我們在113年已經核定了先導計劃那只是先導計劃要銜接正式計劃目前就是把效率的力量"},{"start":3589.383,"end":3609.651,"text":"整部当中还没有完全的核定嘛这我讲的没有错嘛对不对那去年到底在干嘛整部计划这么大一部计划然后我要问那你明年开始108亿教育部没有这个钱跟经济部讨论好了吗我们先行规划已经出来了好然后呢我再问你要把它完整108亿经济部要不要认账"},{"start":3613.003,"end":3640.442,"text":"115年这一块的部分我们就会看到整个校际整合的结果会在实际你整个需要你还需要108亿你这些钱都不是问题108亿的话经济部要不要认账我们上次在这个委员会里面讨论的附带决议跟经济部沟通了没我们现在就是跨部会在沟通但是就是期待高雄市政府他能够将这个园区的校际整合的效益发挥出来后面的预算我们才会进来所以108亿你们有保证经济部会出喔"},{"start":3641.257,"end":3661.493,"text":"我們要看跟高雄市政府討論怎麼整合的結果我今天出來這邊這是問個心酸的從頭到尾都問不到我要的部分連一個還沒有審定的計畫你告訴我高雄市政府高雄市政府不管是誰當市長一定會好好把你這個計畫弄出來問題是我弄出來之後沒有錢啊我一百零八億到哪裡去跟人要錢啊這部分我們會我到時候就跟你討錢啊"},{"start":3664.479,"end":3684.959,"text":"因为教育部没有办法所以你必须要要求其他跨部会来做否则你会排挤到我们的计划这是我们去年坐在这地方审议的嘛有没有办法做到如果说你们没有办法请别的单位跨部会来支援这个部分即使有这么大的一个跟我们高教人才培育可以的这是属于我们大家所期望的还是会落空好不好"},{"start":3685.66,"end":3711.1,"text":"所以我們希望這個合定計劃的一個合定不管是從哪個地方趕快把它落實我覺得這才是一個很大的點是還有我要再次強調這個是那個這個是連續型的所以這個錢是可以繼續用的不要再告訴我藍白黨預算沒這件事好不好謝謝 謝謝委員知道好 謝謝柯市長委員柯市長委員等一下 因為我調換位置了所以所以就不麻煩你了 謝謝"},{"start":3719.773,"end":3729.883,"text":"好 現在請郭育晴委員發言 諮詢好 謝謝主席 有請次長委員好"},{"start":3735.987,"end":3759.213,"text":"市長早安我想今天其實我們不是要談某一個大學法的條文怎麼修那是在少子化跟資源的失衡的一個校園治理的一個壓力同時發生的同時那我們要期待怎麼樣將這個所謂的大學他們的未來要扮演什麼樣的一個公共的角色其實這個部分我相信應該是更重要的一件事情"},{"start":3760.133,"end":3777.432,"text":"我想這段時間不管是學生團體也好或者教師團體也好其實他們陸陸續續提出對大學法的修法改革的期待我相信教育部應該也都收到了但是學生對於所謂的校園自主參與的治理另外他們也感受到有一些不滿"},{"start":3778.172,"end":3798.533,"text":"我相信這個部分其實我們也應該要來正視但是我們同時也看到教育部也多次的提到目前的大學法之所以討論困難當然也是因為不是不重視而是不希望是用所謂的議題式或片面式的這樣子的一個方式去處理"},{"start":3799.033,"end":3816.296,"text":"那應該要回到所謂的大學的定位還有公司力的學校的一個差異還有校內治理的一個所謂的權責上的一個整體的設計那我相信其實大家都還在想盡辦法但是我想如果大家只是把這個焦點放在"},{"start":3817.543,"end":3841.254,"text":"所謂的學生比例學生代表的比例上面或者是某一種治理的一個機制但忽略掉了整個整體的氛圍包含我剛剛其實有提到的像是少子化或者是我們的高教的經費的結構等等的一些現實反而會讓很多的制度更僵化我想這一點應該大家都同意所以接下來我想請教一下我們的次長"},{"start":3842.014,"end":3862.291,"text":"可以跟我們說清楚現在我們的教育部除了對所謂的個別的修法的一個主張的回應以外是不是已經有一個比較整體精進的一個措施的構想那目前如何要給學校彈性的同時也要避免所謂的行政權力過度的集中那我們的教育部現在能夠先做什麼請教"},{"start":3862.791,"end":3878.521,"text":"是 跟委員報告其實在94年大學法修正的時候已經在人才的培育 組織的結構還有財務甚至包含整個學生資助參與都有做大幅度的一個開放的彈性"},{"start":3879.201,"end":3906.991,"text":"那其實在教育部我剛剛也跟林佩祥也報告我教育部本來從來不希望大學穿同一套的衣服所以在目前大學法的架構底下其實在治理結構公式當然不一樣那有些基本的結構比如說以大學來講校長在行政的一個領導校務會議在重要政策的一個審議學生跟老師的角色怎麼在這兩塊之間能夠做適當的參與跟監督我想這樣的"},{"start":3908.271,"end":3930.514,"text":"体制是很清楚那我们在跟大学沟通的时候大学也认同这样子的趋势是不可避免的那现在主要的一个需要来处理的就是说大学比较担心的是不确定性因为毕竟一个新的制度要做推广所以我们现在教育部尝试的就是把同学的意见跟大学校长再做进一步的磨合"},{"start":3930.894,"end":3958.506,"text":"取最大的工學術但是我在想在正式修法之前我們到底教育部還有哪一些工具是可以先行改善這個學生他參與跟校園治理的部分如果有這樣子的工具那不管是所謂的這個行政的指引或者是我們在補助的一個條件還有這個評鑑的一個指標是不是也能夠鼓勵學生來參與校務的一個品質而不是著重在因為每個學校的狀況不一樣嘛"},{"start":3958.886,"end":3984.899,"text":"而不是著重在所謂的一定的學生的比例上面這個部分是不是已經有掌握了有 這個部分我們先前也跟幾個學生團體有釋放過類似的訊息其實現在青年署平常跟我們學生組織的一個互動是非常密切的那我們也有一個有關於促進學生自治參與的一個要點裡面包含對於學生會的一些空間人事 經費"},{"start":3986.5,"end":4012.997,"text":"甚至学生希望说能够参与学校会议这些相关的一个比例这是在不涉及所谓的修法的条件这下一步我们之后可以透过一些政策工具我们就可以来协助学生先落实学生组织落实那如果有共识再把它提升到修法位阶或是同步进行我想这都是具体的方式所以这个是已经可以在做的事情那有没有一些比较具体的目前的成果应该这么讲"},{"start":4013.817,"end":4043.281,"text":"目前有掌握吗是 我们上次也提到比如说未来的校长领选是不是让学生代表能够参与这一块我们也会考量透过像我们一些私校讲补助或是我们的一些高校生跟一些公共性参与这一块我们就会把它做要求去引导学校先来做目前45所大学里面有27所学校事实上已经也有45所里面有27所对 有学生代表参与在里面了那像这种不用修法只要透过政策引导"},{"start":4043.621,"end":4062.459,"text":"那當然這步再一步我們會跟同學這邊積極的一起來跟大學做努力好那我想呢次長我過去其實曾多次的提到就是我們的這個高校治理的一些困境那麼除了制度之外其實還有一個非常大的一個結構性的一個問題就是其實高度是不平等的我所謂的這個高度不平等包含"},{"start":4063.3,"end":4088.94,"text":"文學院 社會學科在少子化的一個產業的導向之下往往他們在招生的時候都成為所謂的重災區就是招生的重災區那我想這個高教的競爭的經費其實它的占比過高就很容易形成所謂的強者很強那中後段的學校他們其實有時候為了生存或者是他們被迫可能為了生存我要繼續活下去不然我的學生要何去何從"},{"start":4089.62,"end":4101.54,"text":"那這個時候其實學校可能就會把他們的校園來出租變成是壓縮到他們的一個學習環境的一個空間這個目前我們怎麼樣來回應這些所謂的治理的壓力"},{"start":4103.094,"end":4125.606,"text":"根文報告其實人文跟理工事實上是我們教育隊兩大支柱博雅教育跟理科教育所以教育部的政策不會去做任何的偏頗比如說我舉個最實際的例子在我們核定高教生跟裡面有個特色理研研究中心我們甚至為了人文社會"},{"start":4126.727,"end":4145.174,"text":"去有还有个先导企业计划去辅导他能够来申请而已所以这一块就是我们对人文社会的努力未来教育部的政策一定也都会以兼顾的方式来进行至于在后段学校中后段学校可能目前面对少子化的压力他有些校色闲置的状况"},{"start":4146.127,"end":4169.423,"text":"教育部的审核其实是在不影响既有学生的一个学习环境他才可能跟教育部提案去做一些要出租或是其他的再利用所以教育部在审核的过程中还是会去关注到我们有没有一些比较具体的比方说我们整体的一个高教政策或者是我们在这个经费的制度上怎么去回应这种现象是有没有比较具体的一些"},{"start":4170.183,"end":4194.999,"text":"是 其实以部长来讲部长他现在其实有请高级两师去做几件事情第一件事情就是说再去盘点目前我们对于在大学法不抵触大学法不需要修法的情况之下还有哪一些政策跟法令我们可以做松绑什么时候这个盘点的结果会出炉大概我们现在已经在进行松绑如果可以的话我们"},{"start":4197.039,"end":4213.369,"text":"我們可以持續的進行但是我們可以先把目前的進度我們盤點情況跟委員做說明給委員一個說明這沒有問題所以近期之內先給我一個說明可以嗎那第二個就是在經費的部分我們在這次特別爭取到200億的高校"},{"start":4213.829,"end":4238.054,"text":"人才發展的預算其實一樣有65億是給公立大學做整個銷務經濟來協助他們在經費上的一個挹注我想這些都是我們目前有在做處理的我想大家都理解這個學生對於制度改革的一些期待但是其實我們在討論這些所謂的教員治理的時候其實我們方向也是要往前進但更深層的"},{"start":4238.374,"end":4267.476,"text":"所谓的这个高校上面的一些结构性的一些问题包含我刚刚所提到的就是我们偏科偏重或者是我们的少子化的一些问题其实我们应该要善用现在就能够动用的一些政策跟工具来帮助我们的高校继续往前走那在这里也非常谢谢次长的这个补充那如果有进行的那个刚刚所说的那些盘点的一些资料再麻烦提供给我们的办公室好谢谢次长好谢谢主席谢谢好谢谢郭玉请委员质询那官员请回座"},{"start":4271.676,"end":4281.109,"text":"現在請萬美玲委員質詢謝謝主席有請次長有請朱次長"},{"start":4287.489,"end":4304.975,"text":"委員好次長早這份是您給辦公室各辦公室的報告對不對本席昨天晚上一直等一直等一直等等到大概10點多快11點才等到這個報告當然昨天晚上連夜看也沒花很多時間看為什麼呢這裡面真的乏善可陳怎麼講呢"},{"start":4306.656,"end":4327.379,"text":"請你讓同仁大家這麼辛苦搞到昨天晚上十點半多那我相信這個過程當中大家其實應該就是一直在做一些修正啦或是等等啦但是為什麼出來的是這樣的東西呢整篇的報告通篇不是把一些學校的意見學生團體的意見過去在公聽會上他們這個一些記錄喔你再做一些彙整"},{"start":4327.839,"end":4356.485,"text":"然后就把它当作报告就来了那不是不可以要把这些东西进来但重点就是我本身没有看到半个就是教育部拿出来的立场你拿出来的态度你拿出来的说明都没有那如果你都没有意见都没有立场那我请教一下今天是我们召委排大学法部分条文修正的一个这个询答那后面如果进行到了主条的审查的时候那请问一下教育部还是一样跟这份报告一样没有任何的意见那我们要怎么审查次长请说明一下"},{"start":4357.145,"end":4384.171,"text":"好 謝謝跟委員說明其實我們持續的在找出大家最大的共識市長 你剛才其實陸陸續續所有的委員在質詢你統統在講說我們很努力因為我們在做我們目前在做什麼找到大家的共識我們在進行溝通我們積極在跟學校跟學生在做溝通這不是目前做的事這件事情你最少教育部做了快十年了快十年了"},{"start":4384.891,"end":4408.737,"text":"這十年前到現在其實教育的第一線的環境跟教育的樣態其實一直在做改變了但你不斷地溝通不斷地溝通不斷地一直在這個尋求所謂的共識十年了沒有看到半個共識目前還在做這件事情看起來是ING事實上不是啊我覺得到底是什麼原因讓你們沒有辦法面對到底什麼原因沒有辦法提出部的建議或者是版本可不可以就這個部分做說明"},{"start":4409.777,"end":4437.533,"text":"跟委員報告一下其實大學法修正確實這十幾年來都有在提啦那其實我沒有那麼悲觀是因為我們目前也看到了在學校端跟同學跟教室端其實慢慢是有一次共同修正沒有 次長我再打斷一下沒有人悲觀也沒有人樂觀啊大家是想積極趕快啊把一個屬於學校很好的大學法屬於學生權益保障的大學法趕快出來而已啊但是你搞了整個晚上我們大概到昨天一直等一直等"},{"start":4437.873,"end":4467.133,"text":"沒有哪一次召委排案子我們是要等到晚上10點多快11點才等到你這樣一個只是會診公聽會的一個這個結論的一個報告我覺得太糟糕了喔因為為什麼如果說你現在到現在還沒有一個你的態度跟立場都還不具體那我只請教一件事情喔那教育部啊你到底會不會自己提出來這大學法修法的版本那如果到時候我們要審查我召委又排了那你會不會有自己的建議文字如果是沒有版本的話你只要回到具體兩點"},{"start":4469.434,"end":4496.969,"text":"謝謝委員長我們是希望再給我們一些時間多久時間多久時間因為我剛剛你的希望我們盡量達成嘛那你多久時間你具體講是我跟委員報告我們在10月20 23的全國大學校長會議會就委員兩個委員還有我們總共14個提案版本的意見我們會在那個場合跟大學校長做最後的一些徵詢市長啊這些版本啊各大學校長早就有了"},{"start":4497.369,"end":4524.651,"text":"他們手上早就有了你要溝通早就有人溝通了那意見早就已經可以回收了所以我現在看起來我只問你布裡面會不會提出布板你回答我yes or no我們會有一個中整個各界意見的共識版本出來所以布裡面會提出布板我們會有一個共所以我也不用再詢問你如果沒有布板會不會有建議文字所以布裡面一定會有布板出來我們一定會找出一個多久時間 最大共識的版本"},{"start":4525.396,"end":4544.015,"text":"我們是希望在十年我跟委員報告因為這個案子因為現在已經有委員具體版本出來了那我們也有討論的基礎吧那我們在二十二 二十三跟大學校長會議這邊有一些共同事事長 我了解就第一個您對大學的這個領域其實非常的熟悉那部長更不用說了"},{"start":4544.415,"end":4560.055,"text":"是在這個領域的也算專家實踐者所以我希望在這件事情上面你們要拿出態度拿出意見來好不好更積極一點接下來我想我來詢問一下我們114年度目前我看到有六所學校的註冊率"},{"start":4560.876,"end":4576.433,"text":"未達六成的淹水線其中我們看到國立的台東專科學校它的註冊率甚至於只有31.75%非常的低全台墊底我想我們看到對於"},{"start":4578.634,"end":4603.179,"text":"我們學生的學費是收入來源之一更是我們來爭取教育部的補助經費重要的指標之一如果說今天註冊率低恐怕其實他的收入就影響他未來的經營但私立學校可能就會退場可是國立學校 公立學校所以我想請教一下次長你對於看到國立台東專科學校以31.75墊底我們未來有什麼樣因應的一個對策"},{"start":4604.059,"end":4629.694,"text":"谢谢文指导台中专校的部分确实因为它的区位的关系所以在招生上是相对的困难市长设立的时候区位的问题就在了不是现在才冒出来的再加上少子化跟产业的人才培育这一块我们现在是期待说能够透过当地比如说我们有大学那我们是不是可以来协助我们台中专校在整个产业人才培育是一贯式的"},{"start":4630.094,"end":4646.044,"text":"好那這個部分看起來有計畫能不能會後啊會後就把計畫直接送過來應該不用等了對不對今天下午會後就把它送過來那我本下在這裡提醒我們少子化現在是越來越嚴重你這個註冊率應該還有含外籍生的註冊率加在一起對不對"},{"start":4646.904,"end":4667.916,"text":"你看看如果我們還沒有開放外籍生如果光靠本國生這註冊率真是低的可憐是很可怕的一件事而且教育部你自己推過了一個數字本席看了也是覺得很可怕117年學年度大億的新生將只有17.3萬人那這個是你的數字然後全國私立學校產業工會也分析如果按照這樣下去"},{"start":4668.456,"end":4693.852,"text":"由于这个数字上面公立大专所提供了12个名额那私校可能只有5万多个学生的来源那这样的情况恐怕到时候会有40所的这个私立大专院校会面临退场那这个到117年也不是两年多的时间基于你们也把这个数字出来了工会也开始预警了我想在这个部分次长"},{"start":4694.392,"end":4703.211,"text":"一樣我們能不能一週內你把這個相關的數字因應的政策你的對策是哪一些一個禮拜送到本席辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":4704.65,"end":4733.255,"text":"委員是不是可以給我們兩週時間我們稍微彙整一下兩週一週這件事情其實照講應該一天你就應該有了為什麼因為這個事情是你一直在掌握的一週內好不好好 謝謝那再來我想再請教就是說到時候給我的時候順便把我們私校現在有一些學校退場退場之後我們過去尤其在上一屆的時候我們很在乎就是學生的這個轉嫌這個問題那你一定有追蹤這個追蹤報告一起一週內送過來好不好好 沒問題好"},{"start":4734.335,"end":4754.984,"text":"那最後一個部分我看到我們苗栗亞太創意技術學院停辦到現在超過6年了那原來我們以為進入到清算的程序就校產可以順利歸功想不到發生史上第一起公益董事跟教育部互槓而且槓得非常的兇那所以這個公益董事也召開了記者會"},{"start":4756.144,"end":4768.177,"text":"我真的覺得不太好看痛批教育部行政怠惰阻撓校對媒合導致清算工作停擺那甚至於就是說抗議教育部是有強迫公開飆售會讓他們僅有8000萬的負債卻導致24億的資產落入財團手中"},{"start":4774.184,"end":4787.101,"text":"我想這個爭議啊真的值得好好說明一下那對於這個教育部也有提出來說哎呀我們也去找了很多這個政府單位啦或者是學校但沒有人要接手簡單的報告你找哪些政府單位哪幾所學校"},{"start":4789.337,"end":4805.748,"text":"我跟委員報告我們是透過廣發給各個相關的部門每個退場學校我們都是做這樣的處理所以針對亞太創意技術學院這件事你沒有去徵詢 沒有去積極還是要按照過去這樣廣發次長 我覺得這裡要修正"},{"start":4806.708,"end":4825.207,"text":"這不可以喔第一個呢你也不是面臨這麼多的學校同時間讓你沒有辦法忙不過來那對於這個學校這樣的狀況公益董事都進來了那你就應該要好好去徵詢積極的去幫忙嘛不是嗎你還是用廣發我覺得太消極啦我們廣發中都有族裔的跟部會"},{"start":4826.609,"end":4842.763,"text":"好你說你廣發了但是呢公益董事成員之一也是高教工會理事長的周平啊他就說到啊董事會曾經主動洽舉了清華大學陽明交大聯合大學在一開始的時候這些學校都向他表示願意接手"},{"start":4843.223,"end":4863.088,"text":"而且也進行了實地勘查但是傳出我們司長啊計職司不但沒有積極促成而且還去暗示承接的單位說如果你接了我們不會有經費的補助你可能要自己好好想一想喔所以這些學校紛紛打退堂鼓喔市長這個時間也讓你們澄清一下有沒有這件事情為什麼會有這樣的指控絕對沒有"},{"start":4863.908,"end":4879.613,"text":"委員我要鄭重的澄清假如這三個學校的校長有接到我的電話我馬上請辭我沒有跟這三個校長打過任何一通電話我們對於所有私立學校退場的校弟"},{"start":4880.733,"end":4897.261,"text":"國有化 公共化這是一致的原則我們甚至還去拜託學校能不能在校務可以使用這個校地的前提之下可以來接收我們不會去阻擋真的 以上好 市長我想喔"},{"start":4897.961,"end":4925.567,"text":"你今天也是本席也給你一個公開說明的機會啦那不要說董事會其實現在一直指控教育部是一心只想透過公開飆售來解決這個問題那我想公平公正公開透明這當然是非常重要但是我也希望教育部能夠協助盡量來協助那這個校產經過建價24億負債僅8千萬如果公益董事有這麼多的意見我建議部裡面再去做溝通我們做最好的一個處理"},{"start":4927.287,"end":4952.694,"text":"不要說台灣第一次發生公益董事集體請辭總辭對教育部對學校對我們教育現場都不是好事可不可以在一週內請司長也協助我們次長一起把這個個案在整個過程當中一週內我們也把函文來給我們辦公室可以嗎我們一週內把我們在過去協助的相關措施我們都提供給委員包含"},{"start":4953.334,"end":4976.47,"text":"我们都带了学校带了部会到场地去献刊那最后比如说你刚刚讲的大学是他们献刊之后校务会议就没有通过只要有只要校务会议通过了我举个最简单的例子像华夏跟台科像清大跟中华没有问题教育部的立场就是会尽量来协助所以我们我也把这条整理是这样谢谢"},{"start":4976.65,"end":4999.383,"text":"我講最後一句話你剛才還提到這個部分這以後有機會還跟你談公私並法治化好不好非常樂意跟委員請教謝謝辛苦了好謝謝萬美玲委員 官員請回座接下來有請劉書斌召委質詢"},{"start":5008.939,"end":5035.275,"text":"好 有請蘇次長有請次長委員好好 次長好喔剛才聽到這麼多委員的一個心聲就知道大學法已經20年沒有修了那因應到少子化網路的發達跟AI的一個影響包括的是國際的競爭這部分剛才聽到次長說"},{"start":5036.796,"end":5059.253,"text":"教育部一直都有在準備就修大學法對不對是的好對是的好我們一直在找出最大的共識出來對但是希望能夠推動今天我要跟大家講這一份剛才朱次長你所做的口頭報告並不是現在大家知道的昨天在10點鐘發給大家的版本"},{"start":5060.114,"end":5088.723,"text":"那個版本今天口頭報告的版本事實上是今天早上還最新才出現的跟昨天晚上10點鐘的版本是不一樣的最大的部分在於調適的不同他有在做檢縮的部分那這個部分在於說教育部其實在這個部分是慢慢的在做檢討慢慢的才呈現出最後是才趕不上了最後拿出來一個版本就是在做今天這個報告這部分是確定的"},{"start":5089.743,"end":5117.631,"text":"這一個我就跟大家講的是另外我們也同意公司學校的性質差異還有包括的是大學自治它現在所謂校園民主是非常重要的它包括多元參與是重要的既然剛才 朱市長你已經也說了你們都一直在持續在準備那現在看起來是只差了是不是1月22 23號要進行的大學的校長的會議是不是只缺這一塊"},{"start":5118.924,"end":5145.779,"text":"公文報告我們因為有口頭報告跟正式的書面正式的書面有應該有23頁到24頁他就比較詳細的去做說明所以版本並沒有不同沒有你們連不是你們連連次連的那個部分重點的部分那個條式等等你不是照著那個原來的順序去進行的這部分我確認因為大概只有我一個人是完全把它看完的所以我可以這樣說那我現在回答這個問題就是是"},{"start":5146.739,"end":5170.101,"text":"1月22 23我們部裡面目前跟大學的想法是說我們在22 23的校長會議之後校長會議上針對整個委員的提案我們做一些跟校長們難得有這個場合聚在一起大家做一些討論之後校長的意見我們就會由教育部分別再來跟不同的團體包含學生"},{"start":5170.982,"end":5176.071,"text":"就是如出一策 找出一個有共識的包括你們今天的版本也是各個"},{"start":5177.762,"end":5201.755,"text":"意見團體的意見的彙整而不是你們本版的意見這跟昨天國教署所呈現出來的他們已經看過各個委員的版本之後也把意見各個團體的意見彙整之後他們提出來的他們高國教署的意見這個是一個國教署看起來是一個負責任的做法那昨天的這個條件就經過大國教署的一個說明大家都知道在"},{"start":5203.123,"end":5215.129,"text":"偏鄉地區的學校發展條例當中就已經有蠻多的共識了對我們未來修法就很重要可是到目前為止高教師20年來的對於大學法的修訂卻還沒有就是他現在還在彙整那我剛才問到1月22、23"},{"start":5218.371,"end":5239.81,"text":"你們對大學校長的意見團體回來之後你們還在就又在說跟其他的部分會者所以如果你是這樣講的話真的是叫你們教育部裡面就是出現到高教師就是一個沒有擔當的一個單位那重要的是現在是不是可以給個時程我今天就是要給時程如果是因為你剛才說了應該是指七月到是大學大學校長的部分對不對"},{"start":5240.45,"end":5264.201,"text":"因為你們持續的對學生團體的部分對學校的裡面的治理你們有一定有關已經有些關注而且包括像大學的學生自治的這要點你們都有些引導對不對表示你們做啦但是卻沒有一個擔當再把這樣呈現出來是不是可以給一個承諾就是1月底之前有一個自治的自己的部的建議版本會出來"},{"start":5265.961,"end":5291.817,"text":"跟我們報告我們認為比較周圓的做法是說在2023大學下場會有一些討論之後大學的一些期待我們可以再來跟相關的團體做個最後的確認那最後期限要多久有共識的版本你要請問你要說多久請你拿出市長還有高教師廖市長的一個這樣子一個責任或是高教師市長是不是能夠回應對"},{"start":5294.302,"end":5311.846,"text":"我們是期待我們是期待是說如果以2023出來我們再去做溝通去會診你們要有時間性是不是能夠在因為我們今天已經巡打是不是能夠在下個會期我們有機會你們在2月沒有你們2月還有上班時間2月還有上班時間對不對2月就下個會期了對但是我說好這個最重要的是你還是說出來時程就對了"},{"start":5320.791,"end":5345.788,"text":"我們是期待說因為委員跟同學都有很高的期待你們就是這樣子真的是高跟柯市政委員說的從第九屆到現在已經超過十年的時間了就沒辦法這樣做成事件真的是讓人家非常的失望好 那我就回到這邊來好了這樣怎麼畢業沒拿出來我們現在回應到的是在校務會議上面還是回到校園自治的這個內容啦"},{"start":5346.826,"end":5359.992,"text":"在校會當中學生的部分他的一個召開的門檻他你們召開的門檻尤其是臨時的校會當中只要五分之一就要五分之一可是學生目前是十分之一對不對那這一個"},{"start":5362.293,"end":5385.61,"text":"尤其是學生是非常重要的部分如果他連包括很重要的一些提案重要的包括的是學生宿舍發生問題還包括停車餐飲的問題等等的有出現問題的時候他都沒辦法去做提案那這樣的話事實上是沒辦法去達成一個很重要的一個反映學生的意見那對於提高學生的這個門檻你們對於什麼樣的一個看法"},{"start":5387.844,"end":5417.063,"text":"跟委員報告我想這分兩個層次啦就是說學生在校園內遇到任何問題絕對不可能只等到校務會議去解決啦學校的學務處各個單位就應該要積極的協助同學來處理我想這是第一個那如果有真的需要有整個學校的一個共識或學校決議才會需要提到校務會議對 但是你應該承認吧學生是非常重要在學校的一個發展當然非常重要發展方向上面是不是這一部分你是不是覺得應該放寬有這個方向嗎"},{"start":5418.064,"end":5446.32,"text":"那現在就是說如果真的學校在第一次的處理在優先的處理之後有需要提到校務會議做討論目前校務會議我們剛才 我剛才也報告過學生能夠讓同學有獨立的提案權這塊是教育部的努力的目標至於臨時校務會議的召開因為它是只要刺激到整個學校的狀況可能由學生直接來單獨提召開臨時校務會議這個機制在可行性上面我們要跟學校做討論因為目前來說"},{"start":5447.746,"end":5462.771,"text":"大學張開臨時校會的情況不多我們當然希望說能夠學生的問題如果沒有辦法在當下學校處理的話需要動到校務會議來做處理我想這都是很重大很積極的下一步我們當然也會希望學校能夠不過"},{"start":5463.832,"end":5479.31,"text":"据我了解学校开临时校务会议大概除了除了真的有那种我现在是重点是要提案权的这个要保障这部分这部分我们要去往下看另外的在教师在校务会议上的"},{"start":5480.291,"end":5501.209,"text":"全體的會議人數他不到二分之一啦尤其是就算教師但是很多是兼的行政職變成是一個行政會議的延伸變到校務會議當中去那應該我們本黨的主張是說包括應該要有二分非行政職的教師跟學生的代表這邊要超過到一半那教育部的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":5502.47,"end":5529.733,"text":"這個方向其實在111年那時候我們曾經有一次也在審議大學法其實委員們的建議也是朝這個方式進行那我們跟大學目前的了解是說可能要顧及到有一些實務的狀況因為有些學校它的專任老師是沒有那麼多沒有兼行政職的沒有那麼多因為學校小 行政單位多一個老師可能要身兼好幾個行政職的這是第一種情形所以要考慮到學校的規模第二個要跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":5530.794,"end":5545.509,"text":"有些老師他並不願意他並不是那麼願意能夠來出任所謂的有些老師是比如說他被推選的時候他就系主任他不是學術主管代表可是就是被學校老師推被系裡面老師推出來所以你可以把它編成說"},{"start":5546.61,"end":5562.7,"text":"有些是屬於學校的行政主管的部分而不是屬於行政主管那一部分這不能做錯區分應該可以看得出來差別吧我想學校在意的就是說我們把那個遊戲規則講清楚考量到每個學校跟老師的意願的不同我們可以來做處理但是不要有"},{"start":5563.686,"end":5587.998,"text":"不要就是一條線一隔一切好 這個意見就請你把它帶到大學校長會議當中好 謝謝那另外的我們看到的這個下面一樣來這樣講的好了那另外在公立大學的校長的臨選的部分有政治力的介入我們看到以台大的管中敏校長所出現的當初被檢舉中國大學在中國也多所堅持論文涉及超嫌 立委迴避等等就影響到台大565天沒有正式的校長"},{"start":5590.939,"end":5608.927,"text":"那這個原因就在於說在校長的公立學校校長裡面當中有五分之一的代表是由教育部來指定的那這個地方就呈現到會有政治意志的介入到裡面去這邊是不是可以請教"},{"start":5610.191,"end":5624.461,"text":"所以我們就為了影響減少這樣的一個影響性絕對的是剛才說的校務會當中的這個比例當中對公立校 我說的是在公立校長的遴選部分應該所謂教育部的比例也是應該適度的在降低"},{"start":5625.512,"end":5644.383,"text":"那尤其是全部的包括的是只要是教育部的這個主管的部分的比例能夠降低那其他的包括因為還有校友還有學生學生這邊不也是要增加嗎對不對因為看到你們現在的一個態度是學生可能到至少一到兩名這個方向你支持嗎根文報告"},{"start":5645.954,"end":5671.511,"text":"我們支持老師跟學生代表可以參加臨選委員會讓整個臨選委員會更多元那可以超過二分之一以上嗎至於多少比例我想還是要回歸到目前整個校內的狀況因為以目前來講是五分之二是由校務會議推薦校務會議本來就有老師代表 行政同仁代表五分之二就不到一半大家會算數學"},{"start":5673.154,"end":5675.822,"text":"其實根本報告當時大學法在94年在設計校長遴選的時候是"},{"start":5679.557,"end":5699.674,"text":"立法院的討論就是刻意不讓任何一方能夠過半才會五分之二 五分之二 五分之一但教育部事實上不到五分之一因為我們是剩下的餘數大概都只有六分之一 甚至七分之一所以當時是刻意設計說大學校長會不是選舉 它是臨選那臨選強調是代表性不是說誰要過半來主導整個校長"},{"start":5703.477,"end":5720.381,"text":"產出的方式所以的意思是說他如果是可以各方的部分的影響各方的有多元意見的話那這樣子選出來的校長就是符合大家的共識的一個校長因為是校長臨選不是校長選舉啦當時在整個大學跟立法院共識94年是朝這個方向在行"},{"start":5720.421,"end":5739.274,"text":"但是我們可以看到的是就算是教育部有五分之一的這個樣子的或是說剩下的餘數等等但是你可以看到在管州米校長這個事件當中政治力實在介入的是太大了結果讓全國的最高的大學的學府出現到沒有556年沒有正式的校長在進行根文報告這個問題我們其實管校長"},{"start":5741.716,"end":5769.839,"text":"的問題主要是在資訊揭露的部分所以在這個案子之後目前的校長臨選我們對於候選人跟臨選委員之間的資訊揭露利益迴避我們做了非常嚴密的規定至少從這個案子以後到現在這個過程中大概就已經都把這樣的可能性都排除所以我們接下來這個也變成一個指引嗎或是說要點在臨選辦法裡面有做了規範我們會後可以把我請人事處整理"},{"start":5770.419,"end":5799.445,"text":"提供給委員做參考針對利益迴避跟資訊揭露的部分好 那我再最終再回應一下因為剛才郭玉琴委員做了一個很好的一個說明就是說你們對於這樣包括對青年的就是說大學生的學生參與嘛對不對在自治的在參與校務會議啊或是說各種的學校的事務的治理的部分啊還有關於民主治理啊因為說你們有做相關的盤點對不對這部分我覺得應該提供給我本席需要這部分好 沒問題我希望也跟教文委員都給因為這個才是最重要大家可以知道說目前"},{"start":5800.385,"end":5827.646,"text":"教育部尤其是高教師這邊對於大學的治理進行到什麼狀況因為你的資訊不透明甚至我建議這些部分應該把它放到這些資訊應該放到在網路上面因為昨天的話跟高教師對 跟對那個國教署也針對的是在偏遠地區的學校的資訊的這些那種部分也是說要有個像儀表本的方式讓他知道我希望如果尤其是高教師本身就是負責高教業務也能夠把這些相關資訊目前的進度讓他講不然我們真的不清楚而且就證成說"},{"start":5828.627,"end":5855.014,"text":"大家都可以從頭並且說大家從頭再去針對這個議題來做一個討論的時候就沒有一個基本的資訊然後也沒有基本都知道你們是也許你們做了蠻多的也是蠻好的嘛對不對這就非常重要了這可以承諾嗎我們來整理目前我們對於大學的相關正式修法體的一些議題目前已經在做的或是已經有什麼成果的或是要行政命令的部分可以呈現出來可以嗎大概什麼多久"},{"start":5855.834,"end":5884.723,"text":"是不是因為因為你們持續在做對不對兩週的時間我們整理一下目前修法我們已經有在做幾週所以一月底是可以完成是嗎兩週兩週那兩週OK好謝謝謝謝各位OK好我想大學是大學的自治大學的自治是非常重要那大學百貨是基本法應該就是要有一個方向尤其是高教師特別是整道是在整個管理或是說從事治理上面的大學自治是非常就是已經是高學歷的人他這邊應該是比較有一個方向性的"},{"start":5885.043,"end":5914.903,"text":"就不应该像其他的,就是别的署这边都已经有做到这样子的一个功能的话,它的作用,我想也期许高市长,廖市长,廖市长还有朱市长这部分,在你监督的业务方面,把这样的一个气魄跟一个方向呈现出来,教育部应该有的,因为它就是一个指标性的一个部会,谢谢委员指导,我们会来努力,谢谢。好,谢谢刘竹斌,赵伟,谢谢市长,请回座。"},{"start":5933.619,"end":5935.12,"text":"好 現在請葛如軍委員質詢"},{"start":5950.199,"end":5962.335,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請朱次長好 請朱次長委員好次長好我想20年的討論"},{"start":5964.164,"end":5985.121,"text":"不可能在兩天內就一切都解決了你們現在這份報告整理所有其他人的說法然後就說1月22 23還要再聽其他人說法再聽下去會不會再一個20年啊2005年來這個我們的大學法修正超過20年來沒有進行全盤的檢討"},{"start":5987.287,"end":6002.587,"text":"20年前2005年是什麼狀態沒有iPhone當年還是3310的年代我們現在用3310年代的大學法規在做我們的高教的治理這樣合理嗎所以次長下個會期有沒有機會願版送進來立院審查"},{"start":6004.243,"end":6023.214,"text":"更穩報告這是我們努力目標我們在2023我們跟下長會議執行意見之後這個我們都知道了報告都寫了下個會期提出來預告版會提出我們的一個共識的版本那接下來也想問一下次長沒有學生會有學校嗎"},{"start":6024.551,"end":6043.223,"text":"沒有學生會有學校嗎學生是我們學校非常重要的主題不只是非常重要吧沒有學生就沒有學校吧認同吧是是嘛所以您剛剛有一句話講得很好啊我們在校長領選的時候要有代表性的人參與嘛學生有沒有代表性"},{"start":6043.843,"end":6072.003,"text":"有有嘛所以我們現在想要看公私立大學的校長臨選委員會就應該要明定有學生代表去納入嘛那我們12月底剛通過三讀的這個青年基本法也明定了兩年內要完備相關的法制18歲的青年要有選舉罷免創知不覺的權益我們青年要擁有這樣的權益了結果不能決定自己校門裡面的事啊"},{"start":6072.897,"end":6089.742,"text":"這個不會太荒謬了嗎那我們看到你們教育部提供的資料謝謝你們做的統計到了2025年的7月教育部所屬的45所國立大學的校院已經有29校在校長遴選的規章裡面有學生代表一人"},{"start":6092.184,"end":6108.617,"text":"64%既然大學端已經確認實務上可行了那就可以加速推動立法為什麼不能做那還有很多人會說那各國的情況呢我們已經都整理好了德國的族群大學治理模式裡面就有學生共同參與決策"},{"start":6109.938,"end":6125.786,"text":"美國的大學校長領選不論公私立也都有比如說私立的哈佛大學就有學生可以直接參與甚至直接寄發40萬封的信件給所有的師生裡面也有學生諮詢委員會"},{"start":6127.347,"end":6152.972,"text":"那也不用擔心最終董事會還是可以由董事會來做決定所以台灣的私校也可以用相同的模式所以次長我們今天既然有這個大學法的詢答能不能你幫我們表達一下你們教育部真實的意見不要講說20年我告訴各位1908年胡適就在爭取學生自治"},{"start":6155.553,"end":6179.766,"text":"當時160名學生覺得學生自治沒有被重視直接放而退學 成立新公學一個超過一百年的學生爭取的東西你現在不表達意見整理什麼公民團體啦 學校啦你再整理兩天也整理不完嘛我再給你兩百年也整理不完可不可以表達一下明確的表達支持跟肯定"},{"start":6180.919,"end":6199.574,"text":"公私立大學校長領選委員會可以納入學生代表可不可以好 跟委員報告這個方向就是教育部努力的目標好那因為公立大學目前確實像委員講我剛剛更正一下就是29校已經有學生代表在裡面我幫你算好 64%對 那另外在私立學校委員可以看到"},{"start":6200.074,"end":6213.38,"text":"我們有整理出來私藝學校對這一塊是比較保留但是教育部目前也認為以校長遴選必須要有代表性跟多元性所以我們也會努力的朝這方面來跟私校所以支持入法的方向嘛對不對這塊我們會好 謝謝點頭了所以"},{"start":6217.262,"end":6241.861,"text":"這個態度很棒你們把這樣的態度放到這個報告裡面我想我們今天這個詢答真的大家會非常非常的感動那我想第二個要跟次長探討的修法方向是大學教師的評鑑制度本席也是來自教學現場尤其是大學我們發現有很多評鑑制度殘害教師權益的狀況大學法第21條規定是什麼呢"},{"start":6244.65,"end":6270.652,"text":"評鑑的制度是在協助教師我直接唸出來啦教學專業發展改善教學品質我講的這12個字6個6個一組裡面有哪兩個字是最重要的市長你可以說嗎教學結果咧現在我們看到大學的現場行政權介入論文掛帥這符合嗎這符合嗎"},{"start":6274.333,"end":6301.397,"text":"跟委員報告 評鑑來講因為大學來講教學服務研究是三塊那主要評鑑還是在教學跟研究因為教學跟研究其實某種程度沒有 等一下嘛對不起 次長我剛剛就說六個字六個字一組哪一個字是重點教學嘛你現在突然又把研究偷渡進來顯然就不符合大學法規嘛那我們也根據監察院113年的調查報告就講了有萬年助理教授的現象"},{"start":6302.177,"end":6326.748,"text":"為什麼萬年 明明就說是教學教學你就硬要給他搞一個研究研究我們就要講 有非常多狀況甚至還要講說 你要捐錢要多上課 有多捐錢的可以加分多上課 超中點費的可以加分你們有沒有去檢討有沒有說學校不可以這樣做有 各位報告"},{"start":6327.868,"end":6353.341,"text":"過去很多學校把它不當了去跟招生跟一些行政服務掛鉤這個教育部有告記兩次都已經有多次嚴正的去要求嚴正要求有沒有辦法學校只要違法的我們一定會從招生名額加補助去處理違什麼法你告訴我違什麼法違什麼法我們就是要用大學法來明確的去優化這個狀況你們就沒有具體改善"},{"start":6354.491,"end":6361.364,"text":"所以我們想要講啦我想大家的心是一致的但是現在執行上就是有困難"},{"start":6362.915,"end":6387.801,"text":"我想還不只是評鑑未過的狀況還有一個什麼專案教師專案教師你聽過嗎一樣監察院也來糾舉教育部這是他的說法我以下講的全部是監察院的詞彙教育部放任大學以大量專案教師長期替代編制內的專任教師的員額"},{"start":6389.261,"end":6410.114,"text":"背離政策的目的都讀過吧監察院的糾正吧我用的形容詞全部是監察院使用的我沒有加油添醋喔最後呢說工作環境薪酬不合理的情形置若罔聞啊教育部的做法你知道是什麼嗎市長你知道教育部的做法是什麼嗎"},{"start":6411.58,"end":6432.504,"text":"上限令 上限令砍一個專案教師給十萬對不對 知道嘛 對不對我們是希望引導他轉正而不是去引導轉正那我好啊 引導轉正結果咧你知道數字嗎 你知道數字嗎 次長106年到113年專案教師變少還變多你如果引導那專案教師應該變少嘛變少還變多"},{"start":6436.352,"end":6453.842,"text":"市長變少還變多我時間有限106到113變少還變多有增加一些什麼增加一些4%變6%這叫增加一些喔這叫增加一些喔到6.64%的老師是專案教師在高校體系合理嗎"},{"start":6455.909,"end":6477.439,"text":"這個我們不用修改嗎這個你可以用一份這樣的報告說A說 B說 C說 D說可以這樣子嗎市長這一次大學法為什麼大家很急很希望討論我知道很多人還有很多意見都很好但是教育部的態度要拿出來教師權益受到侵害"},{"start":6478.459,"end":6503.957,"text":"教育部就是要出來保護大家教師權益受到侵害學生家長就受到侵害能不能當場承諾支持大學法修法重新檢討教師評鑑制度支不支持好 這應該的好 謝謝次長我想教育部的次長在這裡真的是勇於認識剛剛我們兩個訴求都直接勇於說我們支持"},{"start":6504.557,"end":6522.579,"text":"那我也希望接下來22號 23號大家會有很完整充分的討論下一步下一次出來的意見希望能夠有自己的看法不要擔心 不要害怕你們一定站在人民這裡人民也會站在你們這裡接下來 次長我們要來談到AI高校的議題"},{"start":6524.601,"end":6535.55,"text":"當然過去的事我們還是要處理未來的事我們也要看接下來高教的議題您認為AI的發展對大學文憑來講利多還是利空"},{"start":6537.352,"end":6559.464,"text":"大學文憑 增值還是貶值利弊互見其實有利多有利空 我個人的觀察一半一半 沒關係 大家各自有各自的看法那我們直接幫你整理了這個Gallup有調查 2025年只有35%的美國人認為大學教育非常重要在2010年的時候是75%"},{"start":6561.045,"end":6585.434,"text":"那認為大學教育不太重要的人數從2010年的4%攀升到25%哈佛大學也做了研究其實Freshman不受歡迎剛大學畢業以前我們都講大學畢業即失業很不好的一句話很可能因為AI要變成事實那無獨有偶聯合報也刊登了一張世界經濟論壇所講的這個就業前景報告"},{"start":6589.415,"end":6609.405,"text":"其中AI大數據或者是寫作數學行銷媒體全部會被AI取代甚至軟體程式設計這都是非常非常大比例的甚至馬斯克在一天前講了他說我不太明白現在為什麼還會有人要上大學"},{"start":6610.405,"end":6639.46,"text":"當然我們不一定要認同馬斯克但是我們想要跟次長講的是高教體制很可能會受到挑戰而且不是一半一半很不幸的有可能會變成利空請問教育部採取了哪些因應措施你也承認有利空你採取了哪些因應措施我想我們現在在AI的人才培育以後如果大原則有四個第一個具體措施我不要講原則原則大家都會講措施"},{"start":6640.506,"end":6652.385,"text":"ActionAction就是我們要教學生能夠去應用AI工具我們像台卡大聯盟這個部分就是會來做第二個讓學生能夠運用這些工具去解決問題"},{"start":6654.008,"end":6672.082,"text":"这是原则第二个action是什么所以这个部分第二个action是什么我们从国中小的相关的一个课程的引导跟大学这一块我们在学分学成或是透过一些加值的课程来让学生能够去解决我实验有限第三个第三个要负责任的去"},{"start":6672.742,"end":6693.663,"text":"Action是什么这是原则嘛所以这一块将来会在一些有关于AI的使用伦理的部分市长我打断你啦因为时间有限其实你刚刚回去听你会发现你讲的很多是原则啦里面第一个Action抬卡我马上来讲但是呢刚刚你讲的什么指引啊我们昨天也提过了啦"},{"start":6694.384,"end":6721.68,"text":"次長也都說要回去檢討我們來看TICA再給我一點時間TICA我們擔心的是什麼因為有不同的人要做比較深度AI的教育或比較基礎的教育結果我們去問教育部說你們有沒有分說到底來上TICA的這個課程科系的比例文科的 理科的每一個大學的科系剛剛這個記者都講得很清楚有沒有統計次長你知道有沒有統計"},{"start":6722.901,"end":6746.786,"text":"我們都有資料我們可以分析什麼有資料我們要的時候就說沒有統計啊誰說謊 誰台卡來修課學生我直接念給您聽啦要後續研議收集針裂聯盟學校學系及學生修讀情形你們沒有啊所以我們可以來統計所以我問你過去有沒有統計你跟我說有有 我之後會統計"},{"start":6748.331,"end":6769.609,"text":"市長我們不要這樣但沒關係有開始做就好因為我們現在就是急啊就要有action啊我們目標一致但是要有動作好不好還有什麼還有百億啊我剩最後兩頁啦最後一頁啦百億2025年9月編了100億五個月過去了做了什麼"},{"start":6770.868,"end":6783.49,"text":"什麼Action你們說要什麼人才啦什麼研究型大學拚Action有沒有Action結果我們問了索取資料到剛剛啊我還沒拿到啊"},{"start":6786.041,"end":6802.119,"text":"這是什麼 這是詐騙集團嗎不是吧跟委員報告因為我們的作業要點是前一兩天有來做說明跟相關的學校已經在做說明收集他們的意見你已經通過了對 但是這一遇到現在五個月你現在才開始在說明"},{"start":6803.18,"end":6825.636,"text":"跟委员报告因为这一笔预算是从115跟116编列编列在115年跟116年是特别预算的部分那因为细致的一个作业需要学校实务作业面上能够比较能够符合现状所以我们有做说明您刚刚也说了今年就可以用的你1月才在说明讨论我们跟你们问要怎么执行你们资料也给不出来"},{"start":6826.417,"end":6841.676,"text":"沒有關係我們要動作快要有動作而且動作要快所以次長我想有一些委員動輒提出什麼115年度的預算案說什麼不省業務受到影響本席要說錢丟給教育部"},{"start":6842.765,"end":6857.082,"text":"完全沒有回聲五個月說現在要說明所以給了錢也沒有用如果有什麼專案可以提出來預算新興的項目也可以提出來也可以來說明目前我們沒有看到任何說明沒有任何人來找我們說明"},{"start":6858.163,"end":6872.194,"text":"AI的發展對於高等教育利空還是利多大家可以持續討論但是我們擔心萬一利空您剛剛也承認會有利空我們就要準備而且要有action完全取決政府如何因應"},{"start":6873.664,"end":6900.243,"text":"我想次長沒關係如果您有回應可以會後給我報告但是我想要講的是如果我們的部長一心只熱衷政治無心推展教育業務如果底下的業務單位有出現螺絲鬆散的狀況我想也是預料之中但我想次長您今天勇於認識我們還是要給您肯定但是最終如果我們沒有辦法趕快做大學法的更多討論甚至修正"},{"start":6901.124,"end":6926.821,"text":"受苦的會是一屆又一屆的大學生我想今天藉由這樣的一個機會我們也是督促 鞭策我想有看直播看到我們這一段質詢都會知道我們就說要有action而且action要快教育部某種程度也提出回應但是能不能很多的項目不要透過這樣這樣我們立法院來當教育部就好顯然不是還是教育部就不要存在了讓各地的教育局來做也不是"},{"start":6927.762,"end":6949.997,"text":"希望勸我們的教育部部長啊回頭試案趕快把專注力放在教育政策教育的法規上才不會被人民放進他們心中的黑名單好不好我們會後會提供但是確實預算我們明年新項目包括我們補助151號大學整修老師教室這確實是要立法院幫忙有沒有人來我們辦公室說明過"},{"start":6951.217,"end":6968.37,"text":"有沒有人來我們辦公室說明過新興預算來報告啊沒問題啊可以啊那要有人來喔那您現在有承諾喔那來說明喔我不要到最後我們等到最後沒有人來說明現在1月8號囉好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":6971.734,"end":7000.001,"text":"謝謝葛禄君委員那次長請回座請陳秀寶委員發言那質詢那陳秀寶委員之後呢就休息10分鐘因為時間好那就這樣子是林益菁委員之後休息10分鐘謝謝主席請朱次長請朱次長"},{"start":7004.544,"end":7029.716,"text":"館長早我們先來問一個重點教育部會不會提出大學法的修正案什麼時候提出我們會提出一個各界希望能夠找到最大公約數的一個公式版本出來本席是希望說教育部你們廣大各界的意見之後盡快的提出大學法的修正案我們來提升學生的校園民主參與來促進學生權益的保障"},{"start":7030.276,"end":7048.182,"text":"好 接下來本席這邊想先關心一下關於學生會費的問題在大學入學的時候學生會收到學雜費的繳費單然後也會有一張額外的學生會費的繳費單本席問過很多青年其實他們也分享他們幾乎沒有繳過錢"},{"start":7049.082,"end":7059.867,"text":"因為在入學的時候學長學姐會特別提醒他這個費用可以不用繳因為他們覺得學生會好像沒有做什麼事次長你有聽過這樣子的說法跟這樣做法嗎"},{"start":7061.632,"end":7078.103,"text":"有聽說但是我想學生會的同學都很努力的在提升學生的參與所以其實你也是聽過的也知道說有這樣的事情近年來大專院校從學生會跟閉聯會等這些學生的自治團組織時有傳出會費被侵佔的狀況從南到北都有"},{"start":7082.446,"end":7092.016,"text":"那次長教育部是不是有針對這個情況來研議要如何防範我們就關於這個匯費的監督啊就防範的弊端這個我們有要研議怎樣的方式嗎"},{"start":7094.022,"end":7118.373,"text":"不是 我請因為經營署這邊有一些具體的做法我是不是請副署長說明一下好是 謝謝委員那我們大概針對就是學生會新任的幹部還有包括學校學生會業務的承辦人員都會做財務職能相關研習那我們現在也把對財務監督的這一塊也把它放在國立大學跟私立大學的獎補助的指標裡面那也 對所以我們把"},{"start":7119.454,"end":7138.574,"text":"監督這個部分的這個很重要的放進去指標好那先這樣子你有比較詳細的你再一份那個書面報告給我會要提供給委員那本席這邊提到這個是覺得說其實為什麼學生會費會讓很多大學生不願意繳哪一部分就是因為我剛講入學的時候可能學長姐就告訴他這個可以不用繳"},{"start":7139.275,"end":7163.661,"text":"那一部分是因為學生會費這個不透明還有一部分就是因為大學生覺得說他們對於學生會的這個業務很陌生覺得好像跟自身很不相關所以本席希望說教育部研擬大學法修正的時候可以納入學生會費財務資訊透明的規定以及協助學生會這個業務推廣還有促進學生校園民主參與的部分這個你們可以研議嗎"},{"start":7164.321,"end":7178.327,"text":"是 我想在學生會費這是一個很基礎的部分就是說我們大學跟教育部應該跟學生會一起來努力把這個架構起來不然的話學生對於學生會"},{"start":7181.388,"end":7206.948,"text":"更無感的話事實上它繳合費用的意願就會更低所以這塊我們應該跟學生一起努力大學法這個部分關於財務相關的監管的機制我們是不是可以在大學法裡面也有這樣子的相關的規範本席自己也會有一個修法的版本我也希望說教育部這邊可以採納就是有這樣子的方向好 謝謝同樣的問題也發生在系學會您"},{"start":7208.909,"end":7236.764,"text":"次長你應該知道說系學會也會另外收一筆系學會的費是有些學校有那本席也問過青年的意見經驗他們大部分都會繳其實系學會的會費他們同樣會他們反而會繳同樣是因為學長姐會說這個要繳他們告訴他那個學生會不用繳但是系學會要繳那再來就是可能是同儕的壓力因為同一個系屬的同學如果只有少部分沒有繳那在求學的過程裡面可能會覺得有點尷尬但是這個"},{"start":7238.545,"end":7250.233,"text":"系學會的部分我們有什麼監督的機制來監督這些經費嗎在學生會還有學生議會但是系學會好像沒有是不是沒有這樣的相關的組織可以來監督"},{"start":7253.012,"end":7282.464,"text":"是 确实目前在系学会的部分比较是由学校这边来协助但是如果刚刚回到我想经费的运用会限制到学生对于系学或学生会的一个认同那这块我们会积极来协助系学会和学生会因为去年也发生了某大学的系学会的资金被卷款的这个现象所以我们可以发现说其实各校的系学会的费用收费其实没有统一的标准"},{"start":7282.984,"end":7308.338,"text":"那有的系學會可能一次就收到位可能一次就收好幾千塊對學生而來來講可能是拒款的這樣的一個金額那這個時候收這樣的款項進來與其我們在那邊考驗人性本席覺得說有制度的這個監督我們更能夠防範這些侵佔這些相關的情勢發生所以針對系學會的部分教育部會不會去制定一個相關的規範"},{"start":7309.638,"end":7324.578,"text":"我想從系學會跟學生會來講權跟責是要相符的教育部跟學校是有義務來協助學生會把這樣的學生會和系學會把這樣的架構弄清楚然後讓同學更能夠認同讓整個學生自治參與可以往前走"},{"start":7326.019,"end":7346.54,"text":"接下來我們要討論的是學生會現在會面臨的一些問題跟挑戰根據青年署公布的112年度全國大專校院學生會的概況調查指出目前各大專校院協助學生會運作的輔導主管其實有超過半數並沒有具有法治教育或資商輔導的資歷"},{"start":7348.041,"end":7367.274,"text":"那這樣子是不是能夠協助學生會的運作其實也有一定的疑慮那再者呢學生會有透過問卷來表示他們目前遇到最大宗的問題是人才傳承就是不出來參選或找不到幹部那接續的問題可能有跟學校的衝突還有選舉事務"},{"start":7368.815,"end":7383.622,"text":"這些也都會影響到學生會程序的問題那我們教育部在我們青年署去收集了這些相關的意見之後你們有沒有研議如何協助學生會目前你們有什麼具體的方案提出來我想分兩個部分"},{"start":7383.922,"end":7405.895,"text":"第一個精神署這邊他們其實每年都有一些相關的培訓營跟傳承營針對於學生會的幹部針對於學校的學務主管們都有相關的這種培訓的一個課程跟營隊第二個部分就是說其實這是雞生蛋誕生雞其實同學講了一句話讓我覺得很有道理就是說"},{"start":7406.835,"end":7430.34,"text":"其實不能說學生參與率低是因為他們沒有足夠的賦權導致學生會沒有辦法在學校裡面被學生認同說他可以幫同學爭取更多所以怎麼來協助學生會有更多的賦權支持參與那其實學生會可以在一個健全的制度之下正常的運作我覺得這是一個非常重要的那剛剛次長你也回答到我現在要問的一個問題"},{"start":7431.34,"end":7455.719,"text":"就是負責監督學生會這個學生議會呢他們也在問卷中有建議說青年署應該要規劃訓練課程例如說議事規則學生權益法規的嚴厲組織的運作及校務的參與等等這一些相關的課程都是可以很具體的協助學生在學生自治的組織的參與那我想問一下目前有沒有針對學生的剛您有回答說有這樣的課程"},{"start":7456.88,"end":7474.223,"text":"那這樣的課程我們每年會辦理局長我們去年以去年來講有多少學生有參與課程謝謝委員我們每年大概針對學生業務的承辦人員就是在暑期的時候針對幹部是在九月的時候那參與的人數大概都有達到大專院校的七成左右"},{"start":7474.724,"end":7490.634,"text":"那另外我們除了我們自己由上而下的規劃之外我們今年對不起114年我們也針對學生會可以由下而上的自己針對他需要的主題大部分可能是財務的管理那或者是在學生自治的法規他們也可以申請經費自己去自辦相關的徵人"},{"start":7491.724,"end":7512.542,"text":"如果如同剛才回答了有七成的話那應該也來算是蠻踴躍的啦但是這樣的課程參與了之後對於整個學生你們有沒有再有一個回饋的機制讓他們在參與課程之後去了解說實際上對他們的整個學生會運作會認知有的幫助"},{"start":7514.103,"end":7534.534,"text":"是我们都有针对就是学生参与演习之后再收集他们的一些回馈跟满意度好本席认为说其实意思规则学生权益来讲这些对于学生会学生来参与学生会跟学生议会是有很大的帮助学生他们了解自身的权益也是他们学习这个民主法治的这个参与重要的历程"},{"start":7535.134,"end":7558.893,"text":"那如果有這樣的課程我希望說我們也盡量鼓勵學生們可以參與那也希望說除了學生會的成員有意向來參與學生議會運作的這些人之外我們也希望說有更多的課程是適合所有大學生參加的課程協助他們了解他們權益以及相關的學生自治的事項"},{"start":7560.254,"end":7589.33,"text":"為什麼就是學生會之於其實學生會之於學生就像一般的工會之於產業我也會鼓勵我們地方的產業去參加工會其實你單一廠商的問題是個案可是工會發聲就是大家都認為很重要的問題學生會也是你單一學生的問題好像就是你自己的問題可是學生會幫你發聲當你在學習上在受教權有受到權益的時候學生會會是維護學生權益一個很重要的力量喔"},{"start":7589.87,"end":7609.987,"text":"好 我們接下來再說各大專校院學生會常年存在的一個問題就是學生會選舉的投票率很低次長你看一下你們的調查報告可以發現欄位上最高的區間是30%以上代表教育部裡面也認為說投票率高達到30%以上應該算是學生會選舉的投票率的極限"},{"start":7611.468,"end":7635.534,"text":"學生會投票率這麼低包含很多問題就像一開始我們提到的時候很多學生他覺得我不知道學生會在做什麼或者說不清楚學生的權益那所以很多學生他連上網投票他們都不願意去投票他不願意到他們有到現場投票連上網投票他都不參加那這個部分呢次長您覺得教育部我們可以怎麼樣來促進學生參與學生自治這個相關的活動"},{"start":7636.374,"end":7662.5,"text":"所以這個問題也跟學生會的一些同學討論過了確實我們要從讓學生會給更多的賦權包含說他們在校會的參與在臨選的參與在跟學生生活有關的相關的會議參與讓同學可以看到學生會可以幫到他們什麼我想這塊就是學生會一直在爭學生代表一直在爭取的部分"},{"start":7662.94,"end":7682.402,"text":"所以我們才說教育部我們一定會全力來支持這個部分但是細緻的參與的狀況可能還是可以看它是個比較近近的過程每個學校的規模 大小 風格文化背景不太一樣這裡面應該讓它有一點彈性讓學生會跟學校之間不是鐵板一塊的關係我想這塊"},{"start":7683.502,"end":7702.83,"text":"本席之前也有參與過就是學生跟學生團體開過座談會所以在針對這個部分本席也會有自己修法的版本那我們說了學生團體的訴求之外我剛剛提到的這個學生會的財務的透明監督以及學生參與這個校園民主的部分那其實次長您剛剛講到一個重點就是父權"},{"start":7704.01,"end":7727.087,"text":"那到底這個我們給的權限我們給的參與的程度到哪裡就是要大家細緻的討論那我也希望說廣大各方的意見尤其在22號23號我們會有一個校長的會議之後我們希望各方的意見都來參採那我們能夠提出院版的條文讓我們的整個的大學法是"},{"start":7727.307,"end":7753.949,"text":"更符合我們現在大學生他們在大學校園裡面他們所需要的他們可以因為大學法在大學校園裡面能夠不受那麼多限制但是可以充分的學習這是我們努力的目標我們也是肯定學生會或學生組織願意跳出來來協助大學跟教育部這塊的推動謝謝次長 謝謝主席"},{"start":7756.27,"end":7776.889,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員 謝謝次長請回座現在請林怡及委員質詢之後就休息10分鐘謝主席喔 重新宣告休息時間有請朱次長有請朱次長委員好"},{"start":7777.754,"end":7788.299,"text":"次長好今天我們持續進行大學法修法的討論那本席跟范雲委員跟陳秀寶委員我們在上一屆2022年的時候就有參與大學法這個委員會的細緻的討論只可惜沒有到三讀"},{"start":7794.122,"end":7812.717,"text":"好那這一屆我們再重啟修法除了當年的提升學生權還有大學評鑑等事項我都有寫進去自己的版本以外那當然這幾年我們面臨的大學法改革跟這個少子化加劇還有就是私校治理的困境種種的挑戰所以我們要來重新來審視這大學法"},{"start":7816.96,"end":7831.394,"text":"那朱次長你在大學法的公聽會你有坦言說在討論校長遴選委員跟校務會議的這個定位還有這個老師權益的保障跟這個學生自治參與這四個面向"},{"start":7832.975,"end":7853.135,"text":"我們應該要先思考大學的定位那以及這個公司力這個學校角色的不同那所以是不是先請市長來談談在本次大學法要修法的這個時候你對於三年前我們修法的時候你的想法有什麼不同"},{"start":7854.66,"end":7878.318,"text":"跟委員報告其實教育部的立場沒有改變過要說有什麼不同的展望我想分剛剛委員提出的四個主要的面向其實有兩類以我們學生知識參與跟老師權益來講這其實並沒有什麼公司的不同這跟自己的架構沒有關係這是應該是一致的也是我們一起要來努力的"},{"start":7878.618,"end":7905.754,"text":"那这一块其实我觉得在这两年也经过委员们跟同学跟老师的一些反应之后其实大学也慢慢认识到这一块应该是要往前跨那只是大学希望说再往前跨这个过程能够渐进式的因为要避免大学遇到一些不确定的一些状况所以他们希望说渐进式的比如说我刚才也报告过有没有可能学生校会也先跨到八分之一那至于说"},{"start":7906.454,"end":7925.829,"text":"离同学的期待五分之一或四分之一的一段距离这段距离有没有可能让大学看每个学校的一个实际的状况有一些调整比如说学生的参与率等等那这个部分我是觉得可以朝这方面找到大家的一个最大公约数那这个是在学生跟老师权的部分另外"},{"start":7926.63,"end":7944.989,"text":"刚刚委员提到另外一个校长临选跟校务会的参与这就会有一些公私立对这个就是等一下我要跟你探讨的问题对这个是有不同因为以私立大学来讲教育部的教育部跟大学角色在私立学校会是教育部董事会跟学校"},{"start":7945.689,"end":7968.538,"text":"會再多一個董事會所以某種程度董事會它在整個私校治理來講它辦的角色是有點跟教育部是有這一塊是有一些差異跟我們跟國立大學是有些差異的所以這塊我們要留意當然就是說如果延續朱市長你總結這幾個面向我覺得我們再一次來修法討論"},{"start":7970.479,"end":7998.207,"text":"是要以校園民主治理為主軸也就是說不管是校長的遴選或校務會議代表還是說學生自治的保障都應該跟校園民主息息相關所以在這幾點中用學生的聲音如何落實變成校園治理的重要參採因素我覺得最為重要當然在這個同時我們也要留意校方是否有難以執行之處"},{"start":7999.387,"end":8025.76,"text":"所以我們拿私立大學的校務會議來看這次修法的版本很多都有提及說校務會議教師代表中沒有兼行政主管職務的人數的規定可是還有學生代表畢業問題就剛剛你說了幾分之幾可是同時也有私立科大協定會的人士指出如果有些大學老師如果人數就是不夠"},{"start":8026.4,"end":8045.049,"text":"或者因為少子化的關係學生人數也不夠那這樣的規定就讓校會很難以成會所以在校園的實際的狀況跟理想和修法好像不能一體適用所以如何來面對這個不能一體適用的問題這個可能也是我們修法的一個重要的指標"},{"start":8047.27,"end":8075.041,"text":"可是我們還是不能放棄這個民主這個治理校園民主治理的深化那只是怎麼樣彈性配套或者是說我們思考這個規範的密度應該要到哪裡那朱市長你在上次的公聽會也有說在私校校務會一方面校長這個董事會還有這個全校師生三者之間的權責到底怎麼樣都必須一起討論那所以請教市長就我上述提的一些問題特別是針對私立大學"},{"start":8075.441,"end":8087.739,"text":"就是對應到這次大學法的修法那你認為要怎麼樣的解方才能去取得衡平就是我們是不是來思考暫時跟私校公校做差異化的處置"},{"start":8089.4,"end":8111.983,"text":"你覺得 根文報告我想第一個這次修法在整個校務會議的運作其實在94年修大學法的時候事實上是把學校的治理分成兩大塊一個是校長的行政權校長行政權這個部分他會受到校務會議對於學校重要事項"},{"start":8113.264,"end":8132.163,"text":"的一个审议的监督我想这两个目前在整个大学法的架构底下是框架得非常清楚那在施效法里面又加了一个董事会进来那加一个董事会进来之后董事会的角色他是比较属于事前的审核跟事后的监督在"},{"start":8133.304,"end":8161.771,"text":"執行當中學校校務的執行當中他應該是要尊重校長的職責那再一步是監督董事會跟校長之間他們的權責發揮這個運作機制夠不夠我想這是在私校的一個治理結構如果以目前來講這樣的治理結構我覺得運作上基本上沒有太大問題但是比較大的問題可能就是注意到一些細節比如說董事會他過度去干涉校長的權限那這部分其實就在私校來講他就已經有違背了"},{"start":8162.031,"end":8181.296,"text":"那下一步怎麼去處理這些問題這其實是另外就是一個問題了那另外在國立大學這個部分校務會議怎麼去好好地兼對重要事項的監督它並不是直接去監督校長而是說我校務會有哪些重要的決策哪些重要的事項"},{"start":8182.176,"end":8205.009,"text":"我是要經過消務會議同意而不是說消務會議時時刻刻去自然下場這部分是合作的關係有點像行政跟立法這種感覺所以我想這塊但是這塊大家比較在意的是說那我消務會議老師的組成這個部分是不是可以更具有代表性跟多元性我想這個就是一個很好的解方也是這次大家提出來的重點之一是"},{"start":8206.49,"end":8234.409,"text":"談及校園民主治理的深化我們焦點還是學生很重要就是說我們怎麼樣把學生的聲音如何化作影響力學生團體長年在倡議就是希望增加學生在校務會議中的比例當然很關鍵因素是在於能不能達到校務會議的提案門檻學生的比例能不能達到提案門檻我想這是學生團體最在意的"},{"start":8236.25,"end":8259.588,"text":"有關於學生自治保障的部分教育部有個行政法規叫做大專院校學生會運作原則修正規定那這個規劃的面向很多那我們是不是有機會把一些原則提升到法律的位階這個值得討論再來就是說我們在上一屆的時候我們在審查的時候也有提及說我們有共識就是說大學要因輔導"},{"start":8261.93,"end":8283.49,"text":"學生成立由全校選舉產生的學生會就等於是大學應輔導學生會修正為大學應協助學生會也就是說從字面上意義鬆綁了大學對於學生自治團體的過度介入然後也強化了校內所謂的自治團體的保障"},{"start":8286.312,"end":8303.434,"text":"所以本席參考學生團體的意見有提出學生會的專章也試圖從各方面去提升學生的自治保障另外也想跟朱市長追蹤說前陣子朱市長你有應范雲委員的邀請跟一群大學生座談"},{"start":8304.315,"end":8322.142,"text":"那你又允諾說會計數提出版本那就提升學生權的部分那教育部的立場如何那是否能允諾增進這個學生公共的參與跟自治跟學習能力的目的更願意賦權給學生 次長"},{"start":8326.144,"end":8353.083,"text":"我想這個是可以雙管齊下的大學法修法怎麼提升到法律位階來保障學生自治參與這塊是我們現在跟委員一起在努力的但是在修法的當下我們同時比如說透過委員剛剛關心的學生會運作原則這個部分的修正來協助我想學生是主體不是輔導本來是輔導我們就是上一屆有共識來協助學生有更多的賦權"},{"start":8353.963,"end":8379.379,"text":"在現行沒有修法之下可以做的我們先來進行我想這也是我們努力的方向那這塊我們就雙管齊下一起配合委員來努力好 次長謝謝謝主席好 謝謝林一錦委員那次長請回座我們現在休息十分鐘下一位發表委員為張雅玲委員十分鐘之後再開始進行"},{"start":8385.498,"end":8399.803,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳"},{"start":8999.687,"end":9002.23,"text":"好接著繼續進行質詢請張雅玲委員質詢謝謝主席邀請次長有請次長"},{"start":9015.302,"end":9039.652,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝次長就是說我想今天我就來跟次長好好來討論這個學生團體因為我們這一年來去年開始有陸陸續續跟了很多的學生團體討論大家關注的幾個重點就是說在校長遴選的部分還有就是校務會議學生能夠參與的比例以及最後一個他們學生自治空間那我想我們先從校務會議因為這個以前就已經有討論過"},{"start":9040.913,"end":9047.973,"text":"所以我想要請次長先回想一下這個十分之一當時到底是怎麼定出來的"},{"start":9048.78,"end":9076.952,"text":"好 我跟委員說明在94年修大學法的時候剛好那個時候我是科長沒錯那時候在處理的時候我們有開一個全國的學生的一個自治會議先分區 然後在台大開一個大會那十分之一是在那時候提出來的一個共識所以是當時學生團體的共識是嗎對 最早的時候根本沒有這個規定我知道 就在94年之前是沒有但是在第十屆第五期的這個"},{"start":9078.903,"end":9095.598,"text":"教文委員會的第十次會議也就是111年的5月19號當時您也提出到說當時您是司長您是說可以改成八分之一那這個八分之一的依據又是什麼呢八分之一是當時在11年討論的時候因為委員"},{"start":9099.361,"end":9115.759,"text":"立法院有討論那時候也是沒有院版所以那時候我們有跟大學有做了一些溝通那大學下場的希望是說確實十分之一已經做了將近15年了那如果有機會用漸進的方式先提到八分之一來做討論"},{"start":9117.745,"end":9141.932,"text":"大學的期待是這樣子好 我了解那我想再請教一下就是說其實我在教育部的人權教育資源網看到有一篇討論校務會議學生代表比例的文章它裡面就有講到十分之一是否是一個適當的比例它認為關鍵不在此而是在於各校關於校務會議提出臨時動議的比例是否高過此一比例"},{"start":9142.592,"end":9162.439,"text":"因為既然學生代表參與了會議可是不應該只能出席卻毫無作為否則只能出席對所有提案都只能乾瞪眼的話那根本就沒有參與的意義所以我找了一下每個學校的一個版本那你也可以看到就是說大家的規範跟差異都相當的大那我想當初"},{"start":9164.84,"end":9187.418,"text":"這個大學法給予的十分之一那又設了這些限制之後就很然讓學生覺得說你根本其實沒有要給我實質的討論的權利所以現在學生就會希望說我們是不是可以把這樣子的比例提到五分之一那他們這樣一旦擁有了20%的席次的話他們就比較容易擁有臨時動議的提案權來阻止一些不合理的規則"},{"start":9188.419,"end":9212.278,"text":"那我不曉得說現在次長你們的想法是什麼是 這點我在跟同學們座談的時候同學也提到其實比較是一個獨立的提案權就是可以由學生來獨立提案那這一塊以部裡面的評估應該是我們可以來協助學生積極跟大學來溝通所以我現在是以這個方向在跟大學溝通說讓同學是不是有獨立的提案權"},{"start":9213.259,"end":9230.462,"text":"確實 不然現在從三人 五人 八人 到十分之一都有沒錯對好 所以我想這裡面就有兩個問題就是說學生的席次跟他們能不能夠進入實質討論的部分那剛剛聽起來都有已經在討論那我也有聽到前面也有說到好像一月底的時候吧"},{"start":9233.004,"end":9250.36,"text":"22232223两天都有全国校长的会议好那我希望这个部分也要带回去跟校长们讨论因为我们之前自己也有询问一些校长他们也有提到一个重点就是说他们为什么觉得这个学生的想法有点至爱难行因为实务上很难找到这么多的学生"},{"start":9251.061,"end":9276.383,"text":"这是他们的一个想法但我想这个部分还要涉及到学生有提到就是他们开会总是在那种什么期中考期末考其实就实质上增加了他们参与的障碍所以我想这些问题也希望都要在这个会议上面一并的来讨论因为我想校园自治还有这个让学生有更多的公共参与的练习都是非常重要的是"},{"start":9277.043,"end":9298.212,"text":"好那再來第二個問題就是有關於校長遴選的部分因為現在有特別學生擔心的就合併的時候他們根本沒有意見機會校長的部分他們基本上很難去表達他們的意見因為校長又關係到了整個學校治理的一個方向那不曉得說是不是可以加入我們的學生跟教師的代表不曉得教育部的想法是什麼是"},{"start":9299.373,"end":9316.745,"text":"謝謝委員我想以公立我想分公私利來談以公立大學的校長遴選來講目前45個公校裡面已經有29個學校是已經有把學生代表納進去了那部裡面我們也期待說我們透過我們現在的一些政策工具來"},{"start":9318.386,"end":9339.463,"text":"讓更多學校能夠加入因為我還是要強調校長是領選領選重視的是有代表性跟多元性那學生跟老師能夠參與到校長領選這是很重要的一個表徵所以這是教育部努力的目標所以公立大學已經有29校在有實施學生代表那這塊我們會持續地用一些政客工具來引導"},{"start":9340.203,"end":9367.155,"text":"私立学校的部分会比较保留一点是因为目前私立学校有董事会但是以教育部的立场来讲我们也是希望私下的临选更应该要有公共性的话更应该有多元跟代表所以这块也是我们努力跟私下沟通的好 因为像听起来就是说教育部有一些想法因为毕竟从上个会期到现在应该要有充分的一些讨论了那我想1月22号就要开会了是不是可以把当天的议程"},{"start":9368.22,"end":9383.443,"text":"可以提供到我們辦公室這個部分因為是議程是由協進會在處理我想會用我們把他們目前有一些討論的草稿或放下先提供給委員對 但是我覺得教育部還是要有一個想法提供因為畢竟是討論嘛所以我覺得這些想法應該都要放進去"},{"start":9383.863,"end":9408.99,"text":"那再來就是說我想要提到一個比較嚴重的問題就是我們人才培育政策的結構性失衡現在雖然大家都在講AI所以我們很多的政策的導向其實都是會往這個方向往科技領域所以就會造成從這張表上面我們可以看到我們的社科的學生其實人數是在下降的那特別是說我們可以看到這個商業級管理學門的人數是降到了28%"},{"start":9410.51,"end":9435.281,"text":"那我自己會認為這是一個很大的問題在於說因為其實我之前有去年前年吧我去採訪了一個我去拜訪了一個哈佛大學然後他也是AI人工智慧學校的校長然後他也是中研院的院士孔院士有提到一個很重要的關鍵就是說科技AI持續發展因為他也是這個領域的可是他覺得人文社會的學科是可以引領科技依然保有人文的關懷所以"},{"start":9436.121,"end":9455.979,"text":"而且它會建構一個更明確的方向不會只有從技術的方向可是我們現在整體的政策上面從我們的這個審計部的報告可以看到我們雖然宣稱要推動跨領域人才但是跨領域人才往往是變成人文附屬人文附屬於科技"},{"start":9458.463,"end":9479.96,"text":"人文附属于科技而不是平等的整合例如我们会要求人文社会学生补修城市设计可是我们很少要求工程跟资工的学生在制度性里面要补强公共议题跟伦理社会分析的部分所以这样子的跨领域其实是双向的吗还是它根本就是一个单向的那是否可以检讨我们现在的跨域政策呢"},{"start":9480.66,"end":9496.397,"text":"是 跟委員報告其實我剛剛在回答葛國勇委有提到我們現在是要教學生能夠應用AI工具能夠用AI工具去解決問題能夠負責任的去使用AI最後有一個其實就是人文社會可以著力的點"},{"start":9496.917,"end":9518.338,"text":"我们怎么去发现AI做不到的那我相信我们如果要找出新的创新AI做不到的就是在人文社会科学领域最有机会所以现在来讲大概分两个层次来讲我们在做的台卡人工智慧大联盟里面我们就是以跨域的方式有提供应用课程跟技术课程给不同对象的"},{"start":9519.179,"end":9542.121,"text":"同學來做跨域在工程跟施工的學生也有被邀那個會通識多少教育部我們有四年的通識計畫這四年通識計畫裡面怎麼針對科技領域的學生讓他具備有人文的思維然後能夠在未來的AI的運他在做一些開發的時候能夠把這樣的思維融進去這也是台灣未來的一個很重要的工作那這個事實也是我們在處理的"},{"start":9542.261,"end":9568.842,"text":"好 我想因為時間到了我簡單再陳述一下重點因為這件事情不是只有孔院士提到包含去年9月親子天下他們採訪了不管是MIT或者是芬蘭各個全世界很多在發展AI領域基本上是很強的專家學者他們都提到了這個概念就是如何在人文思維人文素養裡面導進去才能夠去確保我們的科技發展不會走歪"},{"start":9569.562,"end":9588.109,"text":"特別是說在現在的很多的AI的應用上面其實會大部分使用的其實是兒童兒少就開始使用所以如果我們今天一旦沒有掌控這個風險的話就會造成後續可能兒少的這個最佳利益受損所以我有個最後的要求就是說我們是不是可以針對人文社會語文商館等學問的結構萎縮提出一個風險性的評估"},{"start":9589.79,"end":9618.358,"text":"好 第二個我們是不是可以在未來招生跟補助與計畫中涉入納入學門結構平衡作為政策目標而不是只有產業需求所以是不是可以提供這兩個的改善方案給我們好 沒問題那大概多久可以提供呢如果既然已經現在有現在是我們可以把一個月整理一下提供給委員可以 一個月以內好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員那官員請回座現在請范雲委員質詢"},{"start":9625.288,"end":9652.203,"text":"有請次長有請朱司長委員好次長早今天是要跟您我們繼續討論大學法2025年底就去年底我跟非常多的師生團體共提大學法三大修法面向一個就是完善治理與監督機制一個是強化師生權益第三個是"},{"start":9653.483,"end":9681.533,"text":"開放彈性的新高校因為我們都知道AI時代我們需要的高校應該會跟過去不一樣那我也要講一下說從上一屆到這一屆那真的就是要等到能夠實質討論這個議題的機會非常的少那有一個原因是因為教育部的版本一直沒有辦法出來那因為我想等教育部可能等不及了所以我自己就決定好好的擰我的版本的"},{"start":9682.193,"end":9700.234,"text":"完整的大學法修法因為上一次在賴平委員擔任召委的時候我們比較是針對校會的學生比例我記得應該是四檔達到共識五分之一可是當時我就覺得問題不會只有在校會的學生比例是全面性的那這邊是要讓次長知道"},{"start":9701.836,"end":9727.195,"text":"這幾年來做了多少事那我為了要提出我自己的版本因為我想等教育部可能我不如自己先來處理我辦了兩場大學教師的諮詢一場大學主管的諮詢三場校長副校長的諮詢請他們給我意見也辦了第一線的行政的諮詢還有四場熟悉高教政策的那包含就是我們的前教育部長的諮詢"},{"start":9728.456,"end":9747.247,"text":"那也召集我擔任召委的時候辦過一場公聽會那我也在智庫相關的智庫教育的智庫報告跟諮詢那他們也請了一些熟悉大學治理的學者專家來跟我討論那當然也跟教育部辦的座談這個教育部就知道那我還有跟協進會師生團體座談"},{"start":9749.989,"end":9777.814,"text":"最後也謝謝大學校長的協進會等也給我幾面書面意見我也請教了立法院法治局給我的草案意見綜合評估做了非常多的調整這只是列出這一年半以來我的版本所做的一個諮詢的工作我想我們在教育部之前提出來就希望你們有一個比較好的基礎再從你們的角度希望能夠提出更精進的版本"},{"start":9779.094,"end":9786.924,"text":"那先講就是我的版本的三大特色第一個當然現在最重要的爭議就是校務會議的組成"},{"start":9789.326,"end":9815.464,"text":"那当然大家知道就是当我们开始主张大学自治的时候其实我们企业的大学是一个有完整能够自我监督自我管理的部分可是我们现在看到要当上大学校长非常非常的难临选的过程中有乱象就不先讲了能选上校长的当然他有一定的能力跟实力可是他选上之后"},{"start":9816.044,"end":9845.193,"text":"完全沒有一個有效的一個校園民主的監督機制那主要的原因有兩個第一個最願意講話的學生比例太多低十分之一我也是大學教授你要在校會中講話如果還沒有升等的幾乎不敢講話升等之後要不要得罪人所以那裡面又佔行政職的比例過高所以在這裡面就是完善治理監督的部分我們認為應該要有這三個方向落實"},{"start":9846.253,"end":9860.544,"text":"師生治校完善校長選任跟續任機制還有強化公正第三方的監督角色包含評鑑跟諮詢公開那我也要回顧一下我們上一次大修大學法是2005年"},{"start":9862.666,"end":9880.407,"text":"那個時候其實確定了校務會議不是最高決策機構它是讓校長重行政決策校務會議是重問責監督可是這個問責監督有沒有辦法發揮因為大學法的十分之一後來變成天花板"},{"start":9881.428,"end":9901.497,"text":"幾乎都是各校的上限學生要連署重要的議題要召開臨時校會都完全沒有辦法湊到人數現在我們也知道18歲公民權已經落實了他甚至可以在家自學透過AI他要把四年的寶貴時間來大學拿一個學位為什麼不讓他能夠有更高的參與機會"},{"start":9906.119,"end":9921.635,"text":"另外一個狀況就是校長的人馬或者是主管也是教師代表的情況佔多數所以你可以看到這個圓圖基本上這個橘色就是主管跟少量職工代表佔40%"},{"start":9925.198,"end":9943.383,"text":"在這樣的情況下這個校會有辦法監督校長如果有一些不恰當或是沒有充分諮詢大家的政策嗎時間真的不夠我能講到十分之一我想這個台師大女足抽血案學生會長站出來台師大"},{"start":9944.403,"end":9962.706,"text":"都不願意改變後來來找我們立委北大也是學生會長講話還被關麥因為校方要強迫搬宿舍他們還衝來教育部跟我們開記者會所以你可以看到這些18歲未來就有投票權的人他們在大學裡面的地位多麼的卑微"},{"start":9964.292,"end":9987.623,"text":"我們講一下大家都說台灣的學生還不夠成熟會不來開會如果開會沒有影響力為什麼要去開會呢請看一下18歲公民權是國際趨勢我們看一下其他的高校怎麼治理這個部分很多是我辦公室自己整理的荷蘭它的模式跟台灣比較像就是校會比較是監督它叫做大學理事會"},{"start":9988.063,"end":10015.603,"text":"他的大學法就規範大學理事會教職員學生代表各佔50%法國制度不完全一樣他接近校務會的學生代表是20%就是1%到1%歐洲其他因為那個是老牌民主國家新興民主國家他們的愛沙尼亞在學校的所謂的接近校務會的Senate裡面國會裡面學生代表佔20%至少捷克是佔"},{"start":10017.024,"end":10042.939,"text":"30到50%非常支持我們的捷克你們教一部自己做的研究羅承中教授主持的研究計畫告訴大家說就是為了平衡保障主管參與教師代表不得由主管兼任但是可以保留主管代表也告訴我們美國的其他事他可以列席主管可以列席但沒有投票權這是別的民主國家的大學治理結構"},{"start":10045.117,"end":10074.008,"text":"教職員的權益也非常需要保障現在階段公立大學就出現很多亂象私立大學亂象更大以教師評鑑為例監察院的報告就說有大學教師被要求要協助招生然後教師評鑑才能加分或者是不支領教師的終點費教學評鑑可以加分所以還有教評會教育部規定三審就是那還可以校長自己跑出第四審一定要用自己的人馬"},{"start":10074.948,"end":10089.595,"text":"所以你教育部有辦法管他嗎大學自主所以我們這其實也是對教育部來講才真的能夠更好的大學法因為你現狀幾乎只能用經費來扣管否則沒有辦法管到大學的亂象"},{"start":10090.735,"end":10105.353,"text":"學生權益就不用再講了就是三十校的調查學生會的困境非常的多他們在財務上有困境然後13%學校不讓學生獨立選出學生代表還用指派的"},{"start":10106.294,"end":10135.294,"text":"那明明就是应该学生可以迁户籍可是只有少数的大学让他们可以迁户籍所以它形成就是它也没有一个相关的那我们认为学生权应该要定期施作所以最后我要讲的是我的版本还有一个能够面对未来20年的开放环形大学AI浪潮跟少子化大学需要什么现在我们大学一个学期上几周都要教育部来管"},{"start":10136.354,"end":10163.142,"text":"以美国来讲有quarter制也有semester制事实上大学真的在AI浪潮跟少子化下需要更多的这是史丹佛大学去年提出来的开放环形大学所以我的版本也希望能够让校长他们也在抱怨教育部管太多我真的觉得大学法是规范要规范的有些教育部不需要管的也能够给校长端他们想要"},{"start":10163.442,"end":10186.889,"text":"好好的辦學的一些彈性那包含目前的制度來講就是教育連週數縮短都要教育部同意那目前少子化下公司並難度也都很高都可以讓我們的大學更好所以包含學制的彈性大學學分的彈性公司合校那當然最重要的是要給高校爭取更多的資源"},{"start":10187.429,"end":10203.631,"text":"所以我的版本是有做了這麼多的努力為未來的20年能夠畫這個藍圖如果我一個立委可以做到我相信Joybook有更多的資源可以給我們更精進的版本那請問次長Joybook這次何時提出建議條文呢"},{"start":10205.454,"end":10227.137,"text":"跟委員報告我非常非常感謝范議員從這幾年來對於整個大學法的一個投入跟支持也形成我們現在因為我感同身受很多的朋友都在公私立大學教書常常接觸學生因為有委員的努力讓我們在跟大學在大學溝通的時候會有一些基礎可以來做討論那我們"},{"start":10228.618,"end":10244.431,"text":"在22223 在校長會議這個部分會針對兩位委員 趙偉跟委員班本的會議提到那邊去做進行討論很高興你們終於跟校長溝通了我們上一次審大學法是三年前 2019年在22223大學校長討論之後我們會把校長們他們期待的一些"},{"start":10254.999,"end":10269.024,"text":"那個版本或是他們條文的建議我們會再跟相關老師或學生找到一個共識版本那這個共識版本因為下個月就下個會期我們希望能夠在下個會期就能夠有一個共識版本"},{"start":10269.824,"end":10296.761,"text":"那我也想希望教育部有自己的理念不是校長跟學生的意見加起來除以二就是最好的版本那這個部分你要有背後的想法請參考一下所有的民主國家高教是怎麼治理的好嗎好那期待教育部好謝謝昭偉好謝謝范雲委員持續在關心高教發展那官員請回座現在請吳佩奕委員質詢"},{"start":10305.01,"end":10328.6,"text":"謝謝主席我請教育部朱次長請朱次長委員好次長好這個因為財政委員會有一個專報就是說如果行政院總預算沒有過的話對我們115年度我們的預算執行會有什麼樣的影響所以我想要請教因為我們教育部的預算同樣尚未審查如果預算真的沒有過對我們115年的執行會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":10332.962,"end":10358.64,"text":"跟委員報告我想分兩個部分一個是新興項目一個是延續性的部分在新興項目的部分我們在國立大學校舍老師的整建部分有提了15億那這15億其實是希望以五年的時間然後有75億來協助國立大學老師教授的一個整建跟文資的修繕那另外我們還有無人機載具的人才培育計畫"},{"start":10359.58,"end":10381.326,"text":"還有竹竹苗地區高中的一個新建的一個校舍因為竹竹苗地區的那個新竹地區的一個學院人口有增加那最後還有全國高中一個污水排水系統的提升那這些都是新興項目如果沒有審議的話事實上我們都會影響到這四個大案子的一個推動"},{"start":10381.986,"end":10406.688,"text":"另外在延續性的部分雖然延續性的部分我們還是可以按照去年的預算先執行但是如果此時沒有審查的話萬一有未來有一些增休增三那可能也會造成我們在預算執行的困擾我們執行了結果預算被砍了那這個部分也會有問題所以這塊其實很希望大院能夠協助部裡面的預算能夠擠出來審議"},{"start":10407.429,"end":10435.297,"text":"延續性的計劃有可能會沒有辦法來執行但是新興計劃是確定會無法執行那因為這個之前我很關心啊在你們新興計劃當中特別大專的老舊校舍因為你們這個計劃是五年連續計劃嘛那是特別要針對說超過40年以上然後需要耐震補強而且結構性危險的建築物有立即急迫性的我們趕快來補助那因為我覺得整個關係像舊聯台大 台大資源最多"},{"start":10435.757,"end":10451.41,"text":"台大我們徐州路校舍我以前念書的地方到現在不是超過40年超過100年以上的好幾棟到現在還有沒修的那整個台大這樣的古蹟有大約有70棟這個就需要補助嘛那我請問一下現在如果你這個清淨計畫"},{"start":10453.692,"end":10473.684,"text":"沒有過那之前你們說請台大先來申請那現在怎麼辦是學校先來跟你們申請我們再看看有沒有過還是等到最後結果完了再請學校來申請因為這個計畫是1月份的嘛怎麼辦呢怎麼做因為我們我們在115開始是有專項經費來支持那現在的做法都是"},{"start":10474.224,"end":10489.915,"text":"用布裡面我們既有經費我們有補助請他們先來申請我們先從那邊去雲芝請他們來先來申請但是所以我們還是希望啦我們這個預算可以要審查要通過這些才有辦法來做好那接下來呢我先請市長你來看一個影片是硬要把它跟政治貼上標籤這就是腦殘"},{"start":10498.939,"end":10504.511,"text":"好 這個是兩天前發生一個新聞事件但是對我來說 我覺得它是一個很重大的"},{"start":10506.004,"end":10534.688,"text":"教師倫理教學倫理的一個事件所以我想要來跟市長討論因為我們有公務人員服務的誓言所有的公務員都是要行政中立關懷民眾勇於任事所以我們討論這個事情我們不討論他的政治性也不討論意識形態因為他源頭是說這個有個北一女的老師不是這位老師 北一女的老師她把蔣文安市長的一個演講轉傳那她讚許說這個演講很棒事實上我也認為我們市長演講很棒"},{"start":10535.308,"end":10552.861,"text":"但是學生有表達不同的意見那在這之後呢這位北運營的教師歐貴茲教師因為他透過媒體公開的發言說學生是腦殘等於是公然的透過媒體去羞辱跟公審學生因為他是具名的所以我就沒有匿名區辯識化處理"},{"start":10554.742,"end":10571.806,"text":"那這個我認為這個已經有違我們教學倫理跟教師倫理那因為台北市政府至今沒有對這一個教師他這樣的公然透過媒體去說學生腦殘羞辱公審學生台北市政府還沒有做出回應所以我想要來討論因為我認為這個事件就算沒有違反教師法"},{"start":10577.628,"end":10601.708,"text":"他可能也已經違背了我們的這個公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法在我們這個考核辦法當中有幾點第一個 嚴刑不檢 致損害教育人員生育第二個 有不當行為 致有損學校名譽第三 教學輔導管教行為失當 有損學生學習權益我們是不是有這個考核辦法 市長"},{"start":10603.31,"end":10611.476,"text":"這個考核辦法是有嘛我先說齁其實我們民主社會都尊重言論自由教師跟公民一樣都可以有自己的政治立場"},{"start":10613.232,"end":10634.038,"text":"但是如果你一個老師你的教學的本質 責任應該是你對學生有不同意見 可以啊你可以跟學生辯論你可以跟學生討論 甚至你去引導學生去思考可是他是透過媒體然後公然的說學生就是腦殘只是因為學生的政治立場跟老師不同我認為這個很不恰當"},{"start":10638.826,"end":10648.159,"text":"那既然我們有這個考核辦法當中我們對教師的專業倫理其實是有明確規範的是否有違可以來進行討論"},{"start":10651.309,"end":10673.729,"text":"確實 如果我們期待的老師在教學的時候應該遵守教育中立然後客尊他本來的一個專業精神而不是於應該是引導學生去建立一個好的公民素養所以這個部分我們先前其實也都要求各縣市政府要督導各級學校要去落實這個部分的一個奉祭"},{"start":10675.097,"end":10702.328,"text":"好沒有錯所以我認為教育部我希望你們可以來跟台北市教育局來關心啦因為目前為止我看台北市教育局還沒有回覆因為我覺得一定要保障學生的權益那我們要完完全全的依據行政中立這個事件我們不是在討論說這個市長的演講好不好不是也不是在討論說老師可不可以有政治立場也不是而是一個老師他教學的專業倫理是什麼"},{"start":10703.769,"end":10728.886,"text":"是 我想克尊教育中立是在教育基本法很明確的一個認證好 那我希望台北市教育局可以趕快來關心這一個事件有沒有來違反我們的教師的專業倫理我們來請台北市教育局好 接下來就是大學法今天我們是討論這個大學法的修法上屆要開始討論那麼我們的招委也召開過公聽會我們的范雲委員也主持過公聽會"},{"start":10730.407,"end":10740.942,"text":"那麼所以討論已經有一段時間但是呢我看教育部到現在還沒有修法的版本我們在下個會期以前教育部有沒有辦法來提出版本"},{"start":10741.55,"end":10765.471,"text":"我們目前也是希望在下個會期能夠有一個各界溝通完一個定案的一個共識版本出來作為大家討論的一個參考好我希望這個時間還是要有一個時間表下個會期應該是可以有來凝聚共識那我自己最關心就是學生參與的部分第一個是校會會議當中學生比例的代表是不是要提高第二個校長臨選委員會中"},{"start":10767.293,"end":10793.756,"text":"要不要有學生代表這個因為我們之前看到有幾件學生在監督學校的時候受到阻礙的案例剛剛范瑀委員有提到台北大學宿舍案學生麥克風直接被關掉第二個我之前關切過北一大的這個前校長陳校長的這個案件那當時學生有關心但是一樣也遭受到這個阻礙所以呢我認為在具體的在校務會議當中要有學生代表的比例要把它提高這點我認為很重要"},{"start":10794.236,"end":10817.105,"text":"因為我們的青年基本法也剛通過我們要落實青年的公共參與這具體而言制度要來調整這個部分次長你的看法我想在校會議裡面學生參與是非常重要的一環目前大學的共識也是希望說十分之一已經實施二十年了漸進的往前提高到八分之一或許是一個選項"},{"start":10818.866,"end":10841.117,"text":"至於要是不是再提高因為學校就會考慮到每個學校的規模他的一個學校的狀況學生參與制度程度不同大學是希望這塊能夠就有一些可以影響調高的比例可以討論但是方向要朝調高一定要漸進的來修改那麼校長臨選的會議現在現行的大學當中我們有幾層的是已經有學生代表"},{"start":10845.939,"end":10866.515,"text":"我們如果以公私立來分公立大學公立大學四十五校裡面已經有二十九校有學生的是公立大學其實已經有將近七成都有學生代表了是我們期待的是未來能夠希望未來如果我們朝向校長臨選會議都有學生代表的修法方向的話現在教育部你們的看法怎麼樣呢"},{"start":10867.176,"end":10882.549,"text":"我還是努力的希望透過這個方向跟在依照這個方向跟校長溝通工藝大學因為其實實務上已經在推行也許私校會有一些意見那就請你們教育部要再多加的溝通討論好不好好謝謝市長謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩儀委員那官員請回座現在請林楚英委員質詢"},{"start":10892.81,"end":10920.432,"text":"林楚英委員林楚英委員不在請鄭天才委員質詢主席有請教育部次長有請朱次長委員好朱次長好這個大寫法第35條"},{"start":10922.709,"end":10948.385,"text":"第二项特别规定政府为协助学生就读大学应办理学生就学贷款这个规定的很明确依据大学法35条授权的规定也就是高级中等以上学校学生就学贷款办法这个办法里面的第七条"},{"start":10949.915,"end":10975.368,"text":"这个家庭年所得总额超过新台币120万元这个是一个数字这个次长知道这个120万元是什么时候在这个贷款报告里面定出来的如果我没有记错应该是在112年底113年初的时候好我告诉你民国100年9月20号"},{"start":10981.206,"end":11009.389,"text":"当时修正的时候就是这个第七条第七条的第一项的第一款家庭年所得总额为新台币120万元以下所以100年了所以到现在115年了所以已经超过超过14年了"},{"start":11010.526,"end":11021.607,"text":"这么长时间所以应该从物价指数各方面物价指数包括相关的这些条件确实是应该要修正"},{"start":11023.019,"end":11049.089,"text":"這個次長可以修正這個金額根文報告因為其實在一百年的時候是一百一十四萬那我們在一一三年的時候已經把它調整是一百二十萬然後一百二十萬以上如果家庭子女達到一定的人數的話好沒有關係我們再查我特別查的好謝謝委員全國法規資料庫裡面的除非是錯誤如果全國法規資料庫有錯誤你們要跟他們講"},{"start":11051.45,"end":11070.223,"text":"時間差 沒問題不管是怎麼樣都是應該要調整從這幾年大家對各方面的這些的一個基礎都有在調整這個就是希望如果"},{"start":11071.877,"end":11095.832,"text":"直接定在這個大協法35條那更好 這個是習近平委員還有本席也連署提案的一個當然審查的時候希望大家一起來討論好 接下來我昨天也提了這個數字近五年大專校園學生出債協力從107學年度"},{"start":11100.123,"end":11126.599,"text":"延漢的落差原住民跟非原住民的差距31.9到了113斜年度落差一直在增加現在是高達36.85%當然除了剛才我昨天昨天質詢的方向希望教育部能夠去調整支持之外"},{"start":11128.612,"end":11156.649,"text":"我们先看这个我现在谈另外一个议题也跟这个有关系跟这个我们的出债协议会有关系我们看111学年度大专以上学校结生了休退学的人数如果我们看这个全国跟原住民的一个比例也有差距很大"},{"start":11157.748,"end":11182.965,"text":"我們看這個前體學生我們就看大專因為剛才的數字這個數字也包含博士授書我們看大專大專前體學生修學比例5.87原住民學生大專學生10.55將近一半4.68的高達"},{"start":11188.547,"end":11217.089,"text":"比一般学生高了4.68将近一半这会跟他的所得收入都有关系跟退学常常要去打工学生成绩当然就不好了就会有退学的状况退学也是高达落差5.63这样的一个落差所以我昨天也有提到"},{"start":11220.761,"end":11239.647,"text":"這個有關我們的相關的這從108到現在都沒有調整我們的協雜費的減免那個部分也都沒有調整所以這個部分啊原住民學生不多但是次長您應該可以支持"},{"start":11240.891,"end":11263.533,"text":"原住民的教育的提升是重中之重好不好部長 社長我想 謝謝委員指導我想針對原住民學生如果讓他能夠穩定的就學現在我們除了用學習來取代工讀來降低學生他在一些課外一下去打工"},{"start":11264.253,"end":11282.463,"text":"抽出費用那我們再透過高教生跟也有相關的助學措施來協助那我們現在再跟原民會跟考選部一起在談怎麼去加強原住民的人才培育我想這一塊謝謝委員的指導我們一定會把它當為重中之重剛才講的那兩個部分這個優先來處理我們會來助理 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員那市長請回座 謝謝"},{"start":11295,"end":11305.178,"text":"现在请罗廷伟委员质询谢主席有请次长有请助次长"},{"start":11309.327,"end":11326.676,"text":"委員好好次長好今天我們審這個大學法上週五下午就知道的議程週五不算6日123算到昨天週三上午就好有4天半的時間可以寫但是為什麼報告是昨晚10點才出來"},{"start":11328.154,"end":11352.146,"text":"跟我們報告因為我們裡面會有涉及到不同的私處不同的團體的意見所以我們也花了一些時間做了一些整理希望把最完整的一個意見呈現給各位委員好 我也希望是最完整的但是今天的書面報告扣掉封面跟木刺是23頁通篇看起來主要是彙整大家的意見"},{"start":11353.186,"end":11381.112,"text":"教育部的意見大概也只有一頁也沒有具體的表達整個政策的方向這樣還要寫這麼久我想這個彙整應該是蠻費時的但是市長今天我的大學法第35條版本其實不是在第一次在委員會上就再提出了早在2024年的4月18日委員會就有討論過那時候排審的是柯昭偉柯志恩委員的35條版本"},{"start":11382.554,"end":11397.158,"text":"他的用的是家庭所得金額適用稅率12%以內教育部在當時的報告我強調是當時因為用家庭所得金額適用稅率的12%納稅單位集聚為121萬以下約佔總納稅單位的92%所需增加的預算大概是411.81億元"},{"start":11412.931,"end":11439.863,"text":"約相當於113年高校預算法定的預算的32.27%因此為大幅度的一個排擠避免其他的教育支出所以不同意修法在今天的書面報告就大學法35條就只有一段2024年那個時候還有六頁在說明怎麼大小差這麼多"},{"start":11442.186,"end":11451.933,"text":"35條是重中之重次長在當次的質詢既然不同意家庭所得進額的一個適用稅率在12%"},{"start":11453.464,"end":11482.511,"text":"我就拋出所得五等份讓最低20%的所得者免學費聚焦真正弱勢的與中低社經背景的這些家庭那個時候我記得是劉次長還答應我說教育部會提供一份所得五等份最低的20%所得者的一個評估報告但是那一份報告我到現在都沒有看到"},{"start":11483.411,"end":11508.064,"text":"好 請問一下所得五等份最低20%所得者大概需要多少的經費您知道嗎好 跟委員報告我想如果我們會後再把這個評估送給委員那以目前我們的推估大學校院大專以上學生目前大概109萬那我們因為這樣只能用推估推估起來需要的預算大概要將近100億100億是"},{"start":11510.886,"end":11530.445,"text":"所以是有算出来了只是我还没拿到资料不好意思如果确实先前没提供委员我们会要尽快提供给委员会后提供给我好不好但今天你说的大概是100亿那教育部现在的回应呢你们觉得呢这个评估要不要调整成我所建议的你觉得呢"},{"start":11531.193,"end":11560.553,"text":"根文報告以目前高教跟技職兩師一年的預算大概是1325億那如果說要從裡面去雲之100億來講那大概影響的一個幅度大概是8%左右了對不起 幾%大概是8%左右所以這一塊可能我們才會希望說在受影響的對象我們來評估一下8%你個人認為影響的幅度會不會很劇烈"},{"start":11562.033,"end":11588.542,"text":"因為原本的版本在所得稅金額這個總額是12%的話12%大概是312%411億那現在變成8%你覺得呢我跟文報告目前高計兩施整體投入不管是學雜費減免就學貸款的利息補貼或是我們拉近學雜費方案已經投入238億了是"},{"start":11590.723,"end":11613.796,"text":"那我们一年高教生根我以目前各公司一大学我们在协助学校做教学特色发展高教生根一年的预算也大概是200亿上下所以如果要再挪100亿出来事实上我们必须要很慎重的去评估当然要慎重因为所有的钱都是用在高教这个部分我们都希望花在刀口上但我认为大概8%"},{"start":11615.757,"end":11637.071,"text":"100億差不多我認為這個部分的影響是沒有這麼劇烈的我們所提出的這個方案也算是一個折衷的方案也務必請次長將這個方案在你們的內部會議好好的來做一個討論可以嗎好我們會來評估那個影響的範圍跟所需要的經費我們會盡量來看看有沒有其他的方式第二件事情"},{"start":11637.651,"end":11658.818,"text":"市長大學法距離上一次較完整的修正將近20年這段時間我想高等教育的整個生態環境早就已經徹底的改變了跟以往是根本不一樣的少子化帶來的招生壓力不會我們也相信你們應該都掌握到地方的意見部分學校面臨退場公私校間的一個分化快速擴大"},{"start":11659.838,"end":11687.198,"text":"学生参与还有监督的意识高涨社会越来越要求大学展现出公共性还有社会的责任面对这样子的一个变化现行的大学法我觉得没办法因应我们的期待所以这是排审的版本其中有一个是部分讨论到校务会议的学生代表的比例以及现行法规不得少于十分之一有提高有提高这个部分希望能够要增加我也有问过"},{"start":11688.078,"end":11707.535,"text":"学校部分的意见当然他们是说支持提高但提高的额度希望能够讨论但教育部的意见呢跟我们报告我想教育部第一个我们当然是支持能够让学生的自治参与在校务会议可以进一步的落实所以你支持提高我们是支持提高"},{"start":11708.195,"end":11726.813,"text":"但是我們也顧及到每個大學我們為了降低大學它可能每個學校的狀況我知道 校園自主 董事會的意見希望有些學校自己的做法對 那我們目前收集意見對 目前大學目前我們收集來的意見大學普遍是希望從十分之一能夠先提高到八分之一是 對"},{"start":11727.614,"end":11745.209,"text":"那至於要不要再往學生代表建議的說能夠到五分之一這個部分可能就是有需要教育部再跟大學從音效自己的角度來做你還要收集多久意見還要給你多少時間目前是希望說在因為已經有14個委員的版本出來了"},{"start":11745.99,"end":11774.012,"text":"那我们在1月22、23会在校长会议来让校长针对这个部分凝聚出公式版本那我们会把这个公式版本再来跟学生跟相关的教师团体跟关心的人士们一起做讨论希望在下个会议我还是要提醒市长我们问教育部就一个很根本的问题提高比例是否等于实质参与你觉得呢"},{"start":11775.135,"end":11803.741,"text":"這個部分就是學校最關心的有這個不確定性所以學生自知不能只看席次而是要看到整個發揮的影響力如果學生代表無法充分取得校務相關的資訊在程序上人被動的參與那麼就算比例提高也只能是形式上所以教育部在制度上的一個設計該怎麼強化學生代表的資訊權還有讓學生在校會議真正有聲音有力量"},{"start":11805.002,"end":11824.138,"text":"次長 誠如我剛剛所說的整個大學法距離上一次的修正我覺得已經不符合期待了所以包含大學合併須經校務會議的同意維護師生的權益校長領選的納入學生代表的一些相關權益我覺得這個部分都是回應大家的期待很多項目我知道要討論"},{"start":11825.479,"end":11853.834,"text":"學校也有給我們一些意見我必須坦白講但是綜合的部分在怎麼樣去凝聚更大的共識我希望教育部要有更大的力度可以嗎好 非常認同委員讓同學能夠有足夠的資訊跟無障礙的去參加整個學校治理這是同學期待的也是我們要來跟大學溝通的地方昨天好 謝謝理事長另外一個問題要跟您請教昨天有週刊的一個封面"},{"start":11855.681,"end":11877.578,"text":"人口危机向世界抢财抢人才市长全球高度的竞争人才当然台湾也在这个竞争的行列但现实就是台湾自己培育的人被大量的国际市场挖走过去十几年台湾是一个人才净输出的国家不仅吸引不到其他的国家"},{"start":11878.869,"end":11889.208,"text":"頂尖的人才台灣自己培養的理工金融優秀人才大量的被歐美中國新加坡歐洲等國際"},{"start":11891.527,"end":11915.782,"text":"來處理掉被他們挖掘所以這是一個不爭的事實這不只是教育現場的問題更是經濟的問題國家經濟不正國內的工作環境不好我們這一次也遇到了很多學校跟我們反映我不講哪個學校但跟我們講僑生以及外國學生的一個招生的問題狀況的問題你知道目前有很多的困境嗎"},{"start":11917.386,"end":11943.463,"text":"對他們來說招生不易然後教育部並沒有幫忙而且給予了很多的限制你知道嗎我覺得可能學校有誤解這幾年我們透過跨部會的會議其實打通了很多僑外生來台跟留台的一些相關的措施我知道 有但是他跟我講這些措施不管是很繁雜甚至很多的問題需要更大力度的溝通讓它簡化所以"},{"start":11943.883,"end":11966.558,"text":"我要在這邊帶到的是細項我就不在這邊討論我們會後繼續來針對這個部分但是我要跟你講的是我知道你們有努力但是這個努力的進度我認為還可以有所進步所以很多學校跟我講僑生的部分希望能夠給予更多的幫助這個方向應該是我們要努力我希望我也來彙整一些意見到時候要跟你們來討論"},{"start":11967.318,"end":11994.403,"text":"市長 這個是你答應我可以我們來做深度的交流嗎對 我們也期待如果真的學校在現場遇到什麼問題不管是教育部的或是其他部會需要解套的我們都願意來做溝通好 當然後面但是學校也要承擔起該負的責任我還想講當然 當然不會把責任都丟給你們但是我希望是你們是做他的靠山而不是開了一個門卻有很多的阻力是 今天趙偉站起來了但我後面原本想問你不管招生還有現在流財"},{"start":11995.763,"end":12014.458,"text":"在台就讀的科系相關的資料因為能夠在這邊讀書在這邊培育人才在這邊就業是我們最終目的那這個部分我們也要有一些誘因我們會後再來討論會後我們再跟委員做報告謝謝謝謝羅廷輝委員就協助謝謝然後讓你先回座現在請武力華委員質詢"},{"start":12030.336,"end":12033.431,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長有請朱次長"},{"start":12036.651,"end":12063.815,"text":"委員好次長好這些年其實我們常常遇到一些高教的陳情案那以近期來講大家都知道的就是例如我也有受理高參大他們的校長遴選現假學歷的風暴所以一直難產中那像是台師大的女足抽血案甚至是台大涉姦性騷案也燒掉了我們的次長那您也很清楚"},{"start":12064.275,"end":12081.058,"text":"我也是这些年来都在帮忙马远遗骨返还案目前也是僵持在那边所以我们可以说我们面对高教这一块经常的碰壁这个壁就是大学法大学自主"},{"start":12081.919,"end":12102.805,"text":"那大家都一概的在喊说已经20年没有修环境都已经改变了大学的治理的架构也不同了那一个出生的孩子20年又已经变成大学生了所以呢我们也都有提出修法的版本那我个人呢像是第五条我就觉得教职员学生的权益保障"},{"start":12103.565,"end":12122.39,"text":"這一些他的救濟違法事項我們希望納入大學評鑑因為目前就沒有就不怕像是第九條的話校長遴選委員會我個人就是覺得裡頭現在很多的法因為性別主流化都會提到性別的比例"},{"start":12122.87,"end":12139.27,"text":"但是不要忘記我們賴總統他從當市長開始就在推族群主流化但是我們族群主流化的概念還沒有普遍的深入到我們的法令當中所以我也希望在這個委員會裡面原住民身份的委員比例"},{"start":12139.73,"end":12154.423,"text":"也必須要被保障那又或者說學生的權利調查在第33條之3我也希望納入不同性別不同族群身心障礙者不利處境的一個學生經驗那我之所以會這麼說"},{"start":12155.484,"end":12183.781,"text":"是因為我們這幾年大學校園真的歧視事件層出不窮像是台大最著名的火冒4.05帳就是在取消原住民學生甚至是台大經濟系的學生會選舉你看大家都要關心僑生的聲音體育生的聲音可是他們的政見可以把原住民僑生體育生放進去希望能夠減少所以在這個當中就是即便"},{"start":12184.241,"end":12206.076,"text":"像東華大學有這麼高比例的原住民師生他都還是出現歧視事件說他們在烤肉在翻糕所以我覺得這個部分我剛剛提的那幾個法我要修的我希望能夠正式能夠納入那再來我就是要提到原住民的高教的問題我也質詢過非常多次這六年來那我為什麼要這樣子講"},{"start":12211.34,"end":12232.889,"text":"因為我們看到原住民學生的出債學率我每一次都提我們可以看他們在國小出債學率跟全體是沒有什麼差異國中也沒有什麼差異高中也沒有什麼差異可是到了大學是斷崖式的下降差距落到將近40%實際上是38%在113學年度這是一個要"},{"start":12238.812,"end":12262.851,"text":"等同我们从20年前一直在呼吁的原住民的平均余命离全体国人是10岁这是世界的笑话所以我们要透过政策去补齐同样的高教这个地方出债学历这么大的断崖式落差非得要用政策来补齐所以我想先问一下因为我也关心很久了"},{"start":12263.331,"end":12289.626,"text":"就是自從我們賴總統去年1月上來我們私校的這個學雜費補助它有上升但是因為原住民沒有享受到所以呢它其實那個gap是越來越大的這個斷崖式的落差會不會越來越大所以我一直說原住民學生的學雜費減免的額度也要去做改變那不曉得這個部分進度如何"},{"start":12291.929,"end":12304.56,"text":"谢谢委员针对于原住民学杂费减免的额度提升委员确实有关心过很多次没关系时间关系用书面报告也可以书面报告我想再一个"},{"start":12305.615,"end":12325.062,"text":"我回到委員剛剛提的這個數據是確實是讓人很震驚的就是說一旦跳脫我們十二年國教之外到了大學這個階段這麼的大是所以這個部分確實經濟因素是個考量那如果經濟因素補足之後讓同學進來他可以安心就學不要那麼高的休退學的情況"},{"start":12325.962,"end":12352.463,"text":"我想这是第二个所以这个部分我们在原资中心的角色怎么去协助我们现在就是跟原民会还有跟考选部都在做一些讨论希望能够把它架构起来那次长我就接续你来说确实经济因素一定要补齐所以这个学杂费减免一定要检讨我希望你有检讨吧有好谢谢那接下来你讲到原专班原资中心这也是一个问题"},{"start":12353.183,"end":12372.853,"text":"我們現在的原專班等同一個大學的科系因為一個大學的科系也就是40到80人平均但是他有7名專任教師可是我們的原專班弄了一個要點他說到補助一名專任教師補助一名專任助理"},{"start":12373.894,"end":12387.315,"text":"這個部分這一名教師壓力很大而且合適的原專班老師數量也不足所以這個後頭都必須要有一些配套措施例如高教原住民師資人才的一個培育"},{"start":12388.777,"end":12408.57,"text":"我們再來看一下他有提到說學校聘專案教師者也要有一個轉任專任教師的機制但是好可惜我們也接到很多的陳情他們不被學校接納雖然你文字這樣寫他不被納入正式的體系所以我們合理的就是認為大家講的"},{"start":12409.691,"end":12429.469,"text":"現在的原專班對很多大學來講他只是為了要當作一個招生的工具然後呢面臨最後的停辦我們教育部原民會也沒有總量管制讓很多的原專班本來很優秀的生存不下去再來提到原治中心我們原本希望原治中心好不容易"},{"start":12430.47,"end":12458.361,"text":"全國的大專院校都已經開設但是我們也在為他們爭取專任助理從沒有到有一直到現在每多一百人再增加一人我們也已經要求他們的薪水要比照國科會的標準但是你知道嗎依舊就算有一個研制中心他有七名的專任助理仍舊研制中心還是一位其他可能放在校長室不知道放在什麼地方"},{"start":12459.461,"end":12479.766,"text":"為什麼因為你們用要點要點雖然寫得很清楚不得一座他用專款專用不得挪用都有寫但是沒有人理會因為我剛剛講了銅牆鐵壁大學自主所以這個就凸顯這個入法的重要性再來提到原專班沒有規劃沒有上位思考"},{"start":12480.786,"end":12507.692,"text":"現在變成審核就開 審核就開但是我們看一下你看護理長照 社工設計都是刻板印象很多大學開設我們原本是依賴他們學校的強項科系來為我們做原住民高教人才培育但是我們發現都是落入刻板印象像園民會 我們有園民特考園民會建議的我們原住民自治人才培育"},{"start":12508.092,"end":12534.419,"text":"我們應該要有一個原住民自治的一個藍圖 尚未思考我們要電資的 環境的像現在有原住民族博物館博物館的人才 農業的人才 土木的人才法律的人才 地政的人才 零所以我在這邊只是要去特別提到說我希望原專班要扣合政策目標那怎麼辦 你看台清 交 城 政這些大學"},{"start":12535.439,"end":12553.386,"text":"沒有開過原專班教育部你們一點都不會去指導嗎因為他們不缺學生這就落實了會開的人只是把原專班當作是招生工具這是很悲哀的所以這個部分我特別希望說能夠有一個改革納入"},{"start":12554.326,"end":12572.667,"text":"已经新一起的115到119的原住民族的教育中长城计划要把这些改革纳进来像是结合原住民的特考考科去做制度性的调整用人的直系的引导我们需要什么样的人才原制中心的一个强化"},{"start":12573.348,"end":12592.219,"text":"還有一個就是很重要我覺得要有示範學校的一個推動可以去責定一些大學來去做一個示範然後補足原住民的專任師資那我覺得教育部就是我希望你們可以趕快來做這件事因為我還是回到我剛剛講的原住民高教這一塊斷層"},{"start":12594.421,"end":12609.532,"text":"這個斷崖式的落差這個一定要用政策來引導那我希望教育部就是全面的盤點原專班的開設情形檢討經費課程質押納入學校的編制校內編制提出改善的做法"},{"start":12609.952,"end":12628.424,"text":"那大學法的體系內必須要有族群主流化的精神符合原教法的精神那希望可以納進去那原住民族的教育中長城計畫我也希望這一波可以納入原住民公務人才的一個培育那甚至是拔尖高教人才我是希望說"},{"start":12629.284,"end":12657.023,"text":"能够去跟一些大学合作做海外见习实习计划全额的奖学金然后就业的导向衔接到国外的研究所那刚好可以去嫁接我们这一次的这个青年基本法已经完成三读像是外交部它有一个先锋人才培育专案我希望我们教育部也可以主动去盘点结合那在这个部分我真的是希望说能够有像双联学位这些想法"},{"start":12657.823,"end":12681.139,"text":"假设我们的在学校大一大二他原专班他先跟大家一起读大三大四再回来或者是跟国外嫁接他可以大一大二在台大两年然后嫁接国外的夏威夷大学三四然后可以取得两个学校的一个学位那我想这个部分其实最终我都希望能够入法因为只有入法"},{"start":12682.08,"end":12699.256,"text":"學校才不會不當一回事是那不曉得次長您的意見如何謝謝委員委員剛剛提出來的幾個建議都非常的具體那我們除了會納入我們原住民中產城計畫裡面把它融入之外針對於原民"},{"start":12700.077,"end":12723.199,"text":"原民专班 原资中心包含刚刚委员提到的一些人员运用的一些缺失这我们都会来检视然后把它做个调整教育部不会没有办法如果学校真的滥用的话教育部该出手就会出手那有关于在原住民人宅的培育我们最近也尝试了跟原民会因为它会主要是针对业界跟部落嘛"},{"start":12723.639,"end":12740.295,"text":"我們跟考選部針對公務人力教育部這邊我們要針對當然是我們高階人才尤其是剛剛委員特別提到的我們要足夠的師資我們也去盤點了目前在哪一些學門領域原住民的教師是相對的比例比較低的"},{"start":12740.695,"end":12767.377,"text":"這就是我們未來優先希望能夠大學肩負起來培育的責任教育部 園民會 考選部 權序部 人事總署都能夠一併的來做一個跨部會的進入到我們的中長城計畫裡面好不好好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席好 謝謝武麗華委員持續的在追求原住民的各項的利益那也歡迎請回座"},{"start":12770.123,"end":12772.388,"text":"現在請翁曉琳委員質詢 時間4分鐘有請次長有請朱次長"},{"start":12785.256,"end":12804.546,"text":"好 谢谢市长那么我想今天这个修法的主题其实环绕一个很重要的核心概念就是大学自主那么大学自主的精神要如何落实我想这个是所有的高教都非常关心的一件事情那么请问一下学术交流属不属于大学自主精神的其中一环"},{"start":12806.577,"end":12815.325,"text":"这个部分只要不违背相关的法令我们当然都尊重大学的自主现在有哪个法令是限制不能去自由的去做学术交流"},{"start":12816.989,"end":12838,"text":"我們目前對學術交流本身大概有兩個部分一個是人員 就人員的移動當然有一些可能比如說像沒關係 你就簡單講人員移動還有學校的交流學校人員移動還有有些是技術因為我們有些關鍵的技術我們會限制它跟國外的一些交流大概就這兩個"},{"start":12839.02,"end":12857.45,"text":"现在我们的教育部部长他今天没有来他当然是很害怕来他自己身为一个台独顽固分子不敢去大陆那他为什么要限制所有的老师们所有的学校的教育团体都不可以去大陆去进行学术交流"},{"start":12859.415,"end":12886.842,"text":"教育部並沒有限制我們是提醒學校在進行到附大陸做學習交流的時候你們該提醒嗎你們該提醒嗎你認為說所有的高校人員都沒有這樣的一個常識知識不知道自己保護自己嗎去做學術交流會有產生什麼危害如果說老師們自己擔心的話學校自己擔心的話他自己可以不用去啊他可以不去啊但是問題是現在作為一個教育部部長"},{"start":12888.615,"end":12897.981,"text":"他可以做這樣子一個建議提醒嗎請問一下教育部今年有沒有編列兩岸交流的預算呃有有所以你們是鼓勵還是不鼓勵"},{"start":12899.264,"end":12924.095,"text":"我們鼓勵跟各國一起做交流我先講兩岸交流的預算因為兩岸交流的預算是特別的嘛是另外有一個便利預算當然啦這個基本上就是每個高校學校還有裡面的教授們要去哪一個地方基於他學術的專業去哪裡去交流我想大家都可以自行的判斷本席真的認為教育不管太多了"},{"start":12925.342,"end":12951.895,"text":"教育部部長自己是井底之蛙自己因為意識形態作祟他不去就算了那為什麼教育部長要做這樣的提醒而且甚至你們現在還修改了行政規則根本就是違反兩岸人民關係條例還對所有的大專院校的老師未來去大陸進行交流要申請教育部核准是嗎"},{"start":12954.915,"end":12972.253,"text":"老師可以去那當然只要有公務身份的像公務人員或是教師如果要赴大陸的話我們當然都有一些提醒事情所以如果說他不是公務人員身份的老師那他去大陸進行學術交流需要事前申請核准嗎一般老師赴大陸對"},{"start":12975.23,"end":13003.328,"text":"這不是教育部核准他要行政只有行政職的部分我們教育部有管制非行政職沒有兼任行政職的老師要赴大陸我們有一些提醒事項一些什麼事項提醒因為畢竟大陸只是提醒事項所以你們沒有要求要核准對不對行政職的一定就跟公務人員一樣行政職的要核准然後非行政職的不需要核准也不需要事前的總之是不需要事前的申請許可"},{"start":13003.948,"end":13032.651,"text":"那個部分要回到學校他本來老師請假要去哪邊要離開他的工作崗位本來就回到學校請假規定要去是就是回到學校的請假規定所以請假沒有規所以學校的請假規則如果沒有規定說非得一定要事先提出許可的話那麼基本上就老師可以自由移動不管他現在是在放假的時間或是他是在這個學校的開學的時間對不對寒暑假時間老師們就可以自由移動"},{"start":13033.631,"end":13050.223,"text":"對 要依照學校請假規定因為不是說假日你要去像我們出國我們也必須要跟單位報備我是說回到學校的請假規定現在學校裡面的老師週末假日或是寒暑假出國基本上是不需要向學校請假的"},{"start":13051.218,"end":13074.833,"text":"就回到學校的請教規定如果學校規定沒有那我們當然就尊重學校但是監情甚至就不是一樣就不是這樣子好然後OK那接下來本期要再進行到第二個問題就是來我們看一下大學法第13條大學自主的精神基本上也包含就是大專院校要聆聘就是各個院系所聆聘主管對吧"},{"start":13076.445,"end":13098.73,"text":"依照系大学法的规定院长系所主任等等他是依照学校的组织规程的程序来选出系所的主管包含院长请问次长您知不知道现在有多少的大学里面没有依照大学法的规定去定定各系所或院的这个主管临选办法"},{"start":13101.069,"end":13119.564,"text":"因為這個規定要在組規那組規的部分所以如果說校的組織規程沒有規就是它沒有說是要求各個系所要訂或是它根本不准各個系所去訂定的這種遴選辦法的話是不是各個系所就無權可以去自己去班訂"},{"start":13120.485,"end":13143.436,"text":"自己去制定 一定要定 因為大選法已經寫清楚就必須在組織會議去明定他的所以所有的系所 院都應該要自己去定他應該有個主規的依選他的系所的這個主管的依選辦法那麼依照現在的這個就是我們有經過去調查一些大學裡面現在的目前的情況就是"},{"start":13144.963,"end":13169.865,"text":"有些系所單位他自己選了依照自己的辦法他自己推選出來的主管然後到了校長那邊校長要去勾選竟然可以去勾選根本不是系所所推薦出來的所推選出來的教授來當主管本期這邊就收到類似像陳情案"},{"start":13171.075,"end":13182.162,"text":"只有一個人推選的主管竟然校長可以只有一位被推選的這個候選人校長竟然就選那一票產生的主管"},{"start":13184.042,"end":13202.038,"text":"因為這其實我也可能要回到那個學校它的主規的規定是什麼因為大學有規定是說從教師中選出那怎麼選出的方法有可能是大家推選有可能是你去選這不要看各校的主規"},{"start":13203.759,"end":13218.068,"text":"本席現在要提醒就是各校的主規有時候他可能已經明顯違反大學法的精神了而且各校的主規有沒有符合民主原則民主程序如果說今天可以放任讓一個校長他完全不尊重細索"},{"start":13220.307,"end":13244.037,"text":"教師的投票共同決定到底要推哪一個系所主管出來那麼甚至當選的這個系所主管沒有經過過半數老師們的支持可能甚至只有一票或兩票的支持那麼校長就可以自己決定那這樣的話其實有落實大學自主的精神嗎本席是希望"},{"start":13245.077,"end":13265.444,"text":"就这样的话我们来聊解一下对 把这个议题可能发个文然后请各个大学提供相关的他们目前的组织法的一些情况以及有哪些系所自己本身没有临选办法或者是说有哪些大学里面是各个校长可以直接去指定"},{"start":13266.224,"end":13289.421,"text":"系所主管的我觉得这个部分基本上它会影响到整个系所的大学自主的这样的精神那么本席是希望教育部能够尽速给你们一个月的时间好吗一个月的时间去汇整相关的资料而且也要注意一件事情就是如果说大学"},{"start":13290.462,"end":13305.62,"text":"有違反大學法裡面的相關規定的時候譬如說他不從副教授級以上的老師然後去選這個系所主任那麼有沒有相關的罰則規定目前看起來大學法裡面是沒有任何的處罰規定"},{"start":13307.38,"end":13335.602,"text":"根本包括因为法已经明定如果说学校他不是从副教授级选出来的下一步我们就会透过像奖补助一些经费的要求来要求学校改善我们的了解只要我们因为我们每年都会订一句牌现在还有一个问题就是说是有些学校他可能订得更严格他是从他只能从教授里面去选择这个系所主管但是明明这个系所可能他目前没有教授愿意担任"},{"start":13336.792,"end":13351.674,"text":"主管然后就是由副教授来担任可是却又给副教授又不发所谓的主管家籍其实大学里面还蛮多这样子一个问题那本席认为说基本上大学法里面记得很清楚就是由副教授"},{"start":13352.415,"end":13379.995,"text":"以上就可以选去推选系统主管所以如果说这个系统的办法里面就是说我可以副教授以上就可以去推选但是学校的组织规程却又只限定是只有教授才能够当系统主管这个可能就会造成一个法律上的一个冲突好 那我们会来大概盘点一下那一个月内更稳做说明好 那就麻烦自张了谢谢谢谢"},{"start":13380.916,"end":13409.79,"text":"好 謝謝翁曉琳委員 管委員請回座像這個議題應該可以就是直接就是把資料Paste給教育部 甚至就是鼓勵該校的教授們就去檢舉啊這個就非常具體可以處理的好現在請林倩琪委員質詢林倩琪委員林倩琪委員不在"},{"start":13411.69,"end":13435.189,"text":"現在請蘇清泉委員質詢蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在請葉元之委員質詢主席好 麻煩請那個次長還有國教署"},{"start":13440.258,"end":13455.907,"text":"好 請副市長跟國教代表副署長那個 上好我先來關心一個國教狀況因為我之前曾經也有提過現在因為行政大逃亡很多學校高中 國中都有這個狀況就是他們要"},{"start":13456.787,"end":13484.124,"text":"招學務處的組長都招不到一般來說都是先叫那個老師兼老師不願意兼因為工作太繁重所以就找代理老師代理老師前兩招是找有教師證的也都招不到後來就找沒有教師證的代理教師然後有的坐一下就離開坐一下就離開所以其實我有提出一個想法之前教育部跟考試院也願意評估就是說有沒有可能讓"},{"start":13485.853,"end":13506.019,"text":"學務處比如說升教組或者相關組的組內的行政人員像幹事他們是經過教育行政考進去的幹事來代理甚至來升任來解決這個行政大逃亡的狀況然後一方面讓老師教學回歸教學行政來做行政"},{"start":13507.52,"end":13515.977,"text":"那教育部跟當時人事警政總處有說願意評估那我現在更進一步具體的建議一個事情我們現在看一下"},{"start":13517.025,"end":13540.242,"text":"我们现在教育行政的高普考的科目其实它都不是学生事务的专业这个次长你也可以来看一下不是学生事务专业因为现在学生事务专业它的关键的领域都非常的复杂它牵涉到像性贫 霸凌 校园危机处理药物滥用 多元文化还有高风险的学生辅导等等"},{"start":13540.842,"end":13559.375,"text":"那你現在如果讓現場的教師來處理的話那教師原本進到學校都是要教學啊就忽然間你要他來處理這些事務啊我覺得他也會面臨很高的法律風險然後甚至於就是會也會面臨到很多不確定的狀況那如果讓就是"},{"start":13560.782,"end":13585.196,"text":"比如說沒有教師證的代理老師來監來處理這麼複雜的學生事務如果沒有受過相關的訓練一樣也會讓這些代理老師面臨到風險所以這邊具體建議一件事情假設教育部有願意讓公務人員就是考教育行政的公務人員來做這麼複雜的專業的行政工作的話是不是可以"},{"start":13586.833,"end":13608.834,"text":"從這個教育行政這個職系裡面獨立出來一個教育學生事務的職系那這個幾個內容第一個內容如果要有這個獨立的職系的話那你考試的科目就要跟我剛剛講的這些相關的關鍵領域譬如說性平霸凌 校園危機處理這方面 校安有相關"},{"start":13610.066,"end":13632.229,"text":"然後第二就是他們考進去假設他們考進去這個職系之後他分發到學校裡面那他的工作你就把它範圍就定在這些專業的行政工作然後用這種方式來舒緩就是現在在國教學校的這個教學現場行政大逃亡狀況不知道市長你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":13632.967,"end":13659.977,"text":"是 謝謝委員指導我想現在因為已經也在跟人總在評估由公務人員來兼任學務主任的一個可行性主長主長的可行性如果更進一步的從那個直系的一個劃分跟應考科目做處理我想我們可以來跟考選部這邊做一些討論我覺得第一個就是你可以把這個納進去第二個在"},{"start":13661.118,"end":13670.555,"text":"師培的部分因為師培就跟高教比較相關因為都是在大學裡面開相關的科系跟學分你也可以稍微檢視一下我會特別提出來真的是因為現在"},{"start":13672.51,"end":13694.076,"text":"我們現在教育環境跟以前真的很不一樣老師也沒有管教權了都要用什麼自主學習輔導用這種方式去跟學生去處理學生的關係其實變得非常的複雜所以其實應該要檢視一下就是你現在上的課在教程裡面上的課跟實務現場有沒有巨大的落差"},{"start":13695.106,"end":13723.343,"text":"不然的話他在上那個教程的時候他聽起來理論上是這樣怎麼大家到了那個學校去發現怎麼跟那個都講得不一樣然後等到他如果說等到他才去實習的時候因為教程是你要考教職證是先修教程再去實習等到他去實習才發現這個狀況有時候又想要問老師也沒機會了這個部分我覺得在教程方面應該也要納進去討論這是第一件事情第二件事情是"},{"start":13724.81,"end":13731.921,"text":"現在少子化嘛所以很多私校都退場可是我們看到一個數據我要來請教一下次長"},{"start":13733.117,"end":13757.698,"text":"就是這些學生他的學校如果說關校了然後他的休退學的比例是特別很高你可以看很高有的到四成有的到三成八有的到兩成四請問一下次長大部分學生如果他原來的學校退場他不願意繼續就學的原因是什麼"},{"start":13760.134,"end":13787.6,"text":"因為基本上我們在處理退場學校的時候都會幫學生做好安置而且安置的部分會盡量的第一個會當然以鄰近同性子的學校為優先第二個我們會提供住宿的補貼交通的補貼第三個他在休息的一些學分或是學費的差距我們都會來協助所以他退場的原因是什麼就是他不繼續練的原因為什麼 對啊所以你們都沒有在追蹤"},{"start":13788.731,"end":13814.905,"text":"應該是說因為我們都會去逐一的詢問學生你要安置到哪個學校你剛剛講的意思是說假設他沒有辦法安排到鄰近的學校他可能要安排到外縣市去他會延伸住宿跟通勤費各方面你們會補助所以他不願意繼續就學的原因應該不是經濟的問題那有可能是因為沒有辦法安置到他想要讀的科系是不是"},{"start":13815.365,"end":13830.566,"text":"其实我们科学对 第一个这样听你讲你只有回答说不是经济问题但你没有具体回答我的问题的核心就是它是什么原因不愿意继续念对不对它是什么原因所以你们要去统计那都是牵涉到追踪"},{"start":13831.627,"end":13857.959,"text":"你今天教育部當然因為少子化關係教育部安排這些大學退場這是一個趨勢這也沒有辦法可是你不能夠把風險放在學生身上嘛尤其是你現在大學的一個退場的做法是你第一年停招第二年就停辦是不是很多學校是這樣第一年停招第二年停辦有沒有很多學校是這樣那你第一年停招你第一年停招那那個學校是不是有大一大二大三的學生"},{"start":13858.752,"end":13882.41,"text":"第二年停辦的還有三個年級的學生就必須要被安置這個做法實際上是把風險轉嫁到這些還在學校的學生身上所以你要去追蹤你要去追蹤他們被迫轉學之後他是什麼原因不繼續讀難道你會希望說有學生在學校好好的因為學校倒了沒有辦法繼續下去他就不就學你會希望這樣嗎"},{"start":13883.257,"end":13901.391,"text":"所以當然不希望嘛所以這個數字就偏高嘛所以請教育部去追蹤好不好好不好 去追蹤一下然後你一個月內跟我們講一下相關的原因狀況跟我們講好不好然後再來還有一個現象"},{"start":13903.503,"end":13927.52,"text":"現在請教育部來注意一下就是你們現在108課綱有一個學習歷程檔案對吧學習歷程檔案這個下一頁這原來的備審資料下一頁學習歷程檔案現在願意教的學生也越來越少了你可以來看一下像到了這個最新的資料112學年度"},{"start":13929.332,"end":13936.975,"text":"一般學生大概沒有提交已經到47.32%經濟弱勢學生62.32%這個比例市長你覺得正常嗎因為學習歷程大概是他升大學的一個參考"},{"start":13945.277,"end":13966.152,"text":"那你們當初108課剛訂這個學習歷程檔案是希望學生在學習的過程當中自我探索把學習歷程記錄下來然後讓大學作為一個收學生的參考那你當時會希望說大概有將近五成六成的學生不教嗎"},{"start":13967.37,"end":13989.485,"text":"我跟我們報告因為在當時108我們在做整個考招變革的時候學習歷程檔案就是原來的備審資料那時候我們對外一個宣示就是說這個是學生可以選擇的你可以選擇透過我們學習歷程檔案的時候上傳你也可以來如果說有些學生因為他個人的選擇他希望還是用書面的方式呈現"},{"start":13990.265,"end":14008.249,"text":"那這個部分有人選這個但是我們會告訴他說你選這個當然你的一些公信力資料的一個準確性大學就比較沒把握那這部分是讓學生自己選擇所以我們並沒有去強迫說每個學生一定要做對 你沒有強迫啦"},{"start":14009.11,"end":14027.969,"text":"因为你定出这一个指标出来我不知道你有没有你会希望说大家教的多一点吗当然我们会希望你希望嘛对不对对大学来讲他透过系统出来的他就知道他的那个真实性会比较高按照教育部的想法其实是希望说大家有教希望能够利用"},{"start":14029.33,"end":14055.626,"text":"你的希望跟現實就是有點落差而且它有逐年提高你看未提交的比例在110全年度其實算低可是到近年已經翻三倍了接近三倍了那你有沒有去了解原因這個部分我想書裡面應該有在了解會後我們是把這個好不好再資料還有一個你看一下那個老師幫我轉到那個老師被學生攻擊的這個"},{"start":14056.963,"end":14070.929,"text":"這是我們跟教育部調資料近三年學生對教師衝突案件統計表114年度也滿高的就是也是逐年上升現在的教學現場就是老師沒有管教權如果面對比較"},{"start":14072.435,"end":14093.376,"text":"不好管教的學生其實老師面臨到的風險也高那相對其他同學面臨到的風險也很高我有接觸到教學現場有人跟我反映家長很擔心自己小朋友因為他們班上就有一個會傷害傷害同學的同學那當然我知道學校也盡量去處置譬如說"},{"start":14094.91,"end":14123.171,"text":"當那個學生他們感覺他可能情緒情緒要發作的時候他們會把學生帶離班級現場就是如果當事學生他沒辦法自己被帶離那就全班帶離但是還是會有風險那所以家長就會不斷的跟學校詢問說你怎麼保護我的學生你怎麼保護我的小孩就一直問一直問一直問那最後學校說我們盡量我們有一個SOP可是當然SOP一定也會有意外發生那所以如果有受傷的話"},{"start":14124.532,"end":14145.089,"text":"你就去告那个同学那家长听到也会觉得很无奈啊老师也是啊老师如果说他在教学现场如果被学生伤害怎么办他也只能去提告现在就是说老师跟同学其实有的时候面临到这个状况都很难处理的我们这种教育部有没有什么因应之道"},{"start":14146.189,"end":14164.73,"text":"跟文報告我想說針對於現場有這類型的學生我們還是會從學生輔導的角度及時的介入不管是我跟你講這個學生輔導我都聽很久了如果學生輔導你們講的所謂的學生輔導有用的話在現在有用真的這個狀況不會這麼頻繁"},{"start":14167.975,"end":14185.615,"text":"所以不會這麼頻繁即使的介入當然即使的介入不管是老師介入還是有專職的輔導人員介入我們部裡面給他的支持跟他適當的一個徵人這就很重要所以這也是目前我們署裡面有在規劃的"},{"start":14186.736,"end":14211.274,"text":"這部分跟家長這方面的跟這位當事學生的家長的聯繫我想這是三方面要一起來做但是我還是強調即時的介入處理是最重要的沒有 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10:45:01","影片長度":"00:12:46","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員陳秀寳等22人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「大學法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員柯志恩等21人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員翁曉玲等 16 人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員林月琴等17人擬具「大學法第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T10:32:15+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T10:45:01+08:00","duration":766,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.6759687500000005,"end":5.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.257843750000001,"end":7.388468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.388468750000001,"end":7.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.61159375,"end":11.134718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.45534375,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.762218750000002,"end":19.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.58909375,"end":26.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.57971875,"end":67.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.39721875,"end":32.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.75034375,"end":68.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.40846875,"end":74.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.35284375,"end":99.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.02784375,"end":75.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.06159375,"end":105.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.44909375,"end":105.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.47846875,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.11284375000001,"end":124.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.96909375000001,"end":136.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.76096875000002,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.98846875,"end":171.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.31221875,"end":176.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.74596875,"end":177.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.79221875000002,"end":187.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.32221875000002,"end":194.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.46096875,"end":215.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.44721875000002,"end":198.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.13409375,"end":204.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.46284375000002,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.61409375000002,"end":210.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.96846875,"end":211.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.86221875,"end":244.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.62534375,"end":221.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.44409375,"end":254.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.26534375000003,"end":255.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.36659375000002,"end":255.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.50159375,"end":257.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.51846875,"end":255.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.97346875,"end":260.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.56409375000004,"end":276.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.61659375,"end":316.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.61971875,"end":309.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.41284375000004,"end":310.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.35284375000003,"end":333.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.96221875000003,"end":332.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.70471875000004,"end":389.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.50596875,"end":413.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.82284375,"end":430.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.54221875,"end":428.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.72346875000005,"end":469.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.89159375,"end":433.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.76909375,"end":434.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.72971875,"end":470.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.32034375,"end":498.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.70409375,"end":519.1397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.19034375,"end":519.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.2747187500001,"end":520.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.89471875,"end":527.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.20596875,"end":617.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.44909375,"end":627.6459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.8315937500001,"end":643.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.20471875,"end":643.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.33971875,"end":649.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":649.41471875,"end":691.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.5972187500001,"end":669.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.03721875,"end":689.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.948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教育部是不是有針對這個情況來研議要如何防範我們關於匯費的監督以及防範的弊端我們也有要研議怎樣的方式嗎"},{"start":101.864,"end":125.435,"text":"金融署這邊有一些具體的做法我是不是請副署長說明一下好謝謝委員那我們大概針對就是學生會新任的幹部還有包括學校學生會業務的承辦人員都會做財務智能相關研習那我們現在也把對財務監督的這一塊也把它放在國立大學跟私立大學的獎補助的指標裡面所以我們把"},{"start":126.515,"end":145.64,"text":"監督這個部分的這個很重要的放進去指標好那先這樣子你有比較詳細的你再一份那個書面報告給我會要提供給委員那本席這邊提到這個是覺得說其實為什麼學生會費會讓很多大學生不願意繳哪一部分就是因為我剛講入學的時候可能學長姐就告訴他這個可以不用繳"},{"start":146.34,"end":170.725,"text":"那一部分是因為學生會費這個不透明還有一部分就是因為大學生覺得說他們對於學生會的這個業務很陌生覺得好像跟自身很不相關所以本席希望說教育部研擬大學法修正的時候可以納入學生會費財務資訊透明的規定以及協助學生會這個業務推廣還有促進學生校園民主參與的部分這個你們可以研議嗎"},{"start":171.385,"end":185.392,"text":"是 我想在學生會費這是一個很基礎的部分就是說我們大學跟教育部應該跟學生會一起來努力把這個架構起來不然的話學生對於學生會"},{"start":188.453,"end":214.013,"text":"更无感的话事实上它缴合费用的意愿就会更低所以这一块我们应该跟学生一起来努力大学法这个部分关于财务相关的监管的机制我们是不是可以在大学法里面也有这样子的相关的规范这个你们本席自己也会有一个修法的版本我也希望说教育部这边可以采纳就是有这样子的方向好 同样的问题也发生在系学会您"},{"start":215.954,"end":242.567,"text":"次長你應該知道說系學會也會另外收一筆系學會的費有些學校有那本席也問過青年的意見經驗他們大部分都會繳其實系學會的會費他們同樣會他們反而會繳同樣是因為學長姐會說這個要繳他們告訴他那個學生會不用繳但是系學會要繳那再來就是可能是同儕的壓力因為同一個系屬的同學如果只有少部分沒有繳那在求學的過程裡面可能會覺得有點尷尬"},{"start":243.587,"end":257.257,"text":"但是這個系學會的部分我們有什麼監督的機制來監督這些經費嗎在學生會還有學生議會但是系學會好像沒有是不是沒有這樣的相關的組織可以來監督"},{"start":260.074,"end":289.546,"text":"是 确实目前在系学会的部分比较是由学校这边来协助但是如果刚刚回到我想经费的运用会牵制到学生对于系学会或学生会的一个认同那这块我们会积极来协助系学会和学生会因为去年也发生了某大学的系学会的资金被卷款的这个现象所以我们可以发现说其实各校的系学会的费用收费其实没有统一的标准"},{"start":290.046,"end":315.402,"text":"那有的系學會可能一次就收到位可能一次就收好幾千塊對學生而來來講可能是拒款的這樣的一個金額那這個時候收這樣的款項進來與其我們在那邊考驗人性本席覺得說有制度的這個監督我們更能夠防範這些侵佔這些相關的情勢發生所以針對系學會的部分教育部會不會去制定一個相關的規範"},{"start":316.703,"end":337.296,"text":"我想从系学会跟学生会来讲权跟责是要相符的教育部跟学校是有义务来协助学生会把这样的学生会和系学会把这样的架构弄清楚然后让同学更能够认同让整个学生自治参与可以往前走我想这部分我们可以来讲接下来我们要讨论的是学生会现在会面临的一些问题跟挑战"},{"start":337.816,"end":353.75,"text":"根據青年署公布的112年度全國大專校院學生會的概況調查指出目前各大專校院協助學生會運作的輔導主管其實有超過半數並沒有具有法治教育或資商輔導的資歷"},{"start":355.111,"end":377.304,"text":"那這樣子是不是能夠協助學生會的運作其實也有一定的疑慮那再者學生會有透過問卷來表示他們目前遇到最大宗的問題是人才傳承就是不出來參選或找不到幹部那接續的問題可能有跟學校的衝突還有選舉事務這些也都會影響到學生會存續的問題"},{"start":378.905,"end":404.593,"text":"那我们教育部在我们青年署去收集了这些相关的意见之后你们有没有演绎如何协助学生会目前你们有什么具体的方案提出来我想分两个部分第一个青年署这边他们其实每年都有一些相关的培训营跟传承营针对于学生会的干部针对于学校的学务主管们都有相关的这种培训的一个部"},{"start":405.153,"end":427.051,"text":"一個課程跟營隊第二個部分就是說其實這是雞生蛋誕生雞其實同學講的一句話讓我覺得很有道理就是說其實不能說學生參與率低是因為他們沒有足夠的賦權導致學生會沒有辦法在學校裡面被學生認同說他可以幫同學爭取更多所以怎麼來協助學生會有更多的賦權 支持參與"},{"start":427.811,"end":444.056,"text":"其實學生會可以在一個健全的制度之下正常的運作我覺得這是一個非常重要的剛剛次長你也回答到我現在要問的一個問題就是負責監督學生會的學生議會他們也在問卷中有建議說青年署應該要規劃訓練課程"},{"start":445.936,"end":469.15,"text":"例如说意识规则学生权益法规的严厉组织的运作及校务的参与等等这些相关的课程都是可以很具体的协助学生在学生自治的组织的参与那我想问一下目前有没有针对学生的刚您有回答说有这样的课程那这样的课程我们每年会办理局长我们去年以去年来讲有多少学生有参与课程"},{"start":470.69,"end":497.999,"text":"谢谢委员我们每年大概针对学生业务的承办人员就是在暑期的时候针对干部是在9月的时候那参与的人数大概都有达到大专院校的七成左右那另外我们除了我们自己由上而下的规划之外我们今年对不起114年我们也针对学生会可以由下而上的自己针对他需要的主题大部分可能是财务的管理那或者是在学生自治的法规他们也可以申请经费自己去置办相关的征人"},{"start":498.789,"end":519.607,"text":"如果如同刚才回答了有七成的话那应该也来算是蛮踊跃的啦但是这样的课程参与了之后对于整个学生你们有没有再有一个回馈的机制让他们在参与课程之后去了解说实际上对他们的整个学生会运作会认知有的帮助"},{"start":521.168,"end":541.608,"text":"是我们都有针对就是学生参与演习之后再收集他们的一些回馈跟满意度好本席认为说其实意识规则学生权益来讲这些对于学生会学生来参与学生会跟学生议会是有很大的帮助学生他们了解自身的权益也是他们学习这个民主法治的这个参与重要的历程"},{"start":542.188,"end":565.936,"text":"那如果有這樣的課程我希望說我們也盡量鼓勵學生們可以參與那也希望說除了學生會的成員有意向來參與學生議會運作的這些人之外呢我們也希望說有更多的課程是適合所有大學生參加的課程協助他們了解他們權益以及相關的這個學生自治的事項"},{"start":567.316,"end":596.398,"text":"為什麼就是學生會之於其實學生會之於學生就像一般的工會之於產業我也會鼓勵我們地方的產業去參加工會其實你單一廠商的問題是個案可是工會發生就是大家都認為很重要的問題學生會也是你單一學生的問題好像就是你自己的問題可是學生會幫你發聲當你在學習上在受教權有受到權益的時候學生會會是維護學生權益一個很重要的力量喔"},{"start":596.938,"end":617.032,"text":"好 我們接下來再說各大專校院學生會常年存在的一個問題就是學生會選舉的投票率很低次長你看一下你們的調查報告可以發現欄位上最高的區間是30%以上代表教育部裡面也認為說投票率高達到30%以上應該算是學生會選舉的投票率的極限"},{"start":618.533,"end":642.599,"text":"學生會投票率這麼低包含很多問題就像一開始我們提到的時候很多學生他覺得我不知道學生會在做什麼或者說不清楚學生的權益那所以很多學生他連上網投票他們都不願意去投票他不願意到他們有到現場投票連上網投票他都不參加那這個部分呢次長您覺得教育部我們可以怎麼樣來促進學生參與學生自治這個相關的活動"},{"start":643.439,"end":669.565,"text":"所以這個問題也跟學生會的一些同學討論過了確實我們要從讓學生會給更多的賦權包含說他們在校會的參與在民選的參與在跟學生生活有關的相關的會議參與讓同學可以看到學生會可以幫到他們什麼我想這塊就是學生會一直在爭學生代表一直在爭取的部分"},{"start":670.005,"end":694.787,"text":"所以我们才说教育部我们一定会全力来支持这个部分但是细致的参与的状况可能还是可以看它是个比较近近的过程每个学校的规模大小风格文化背景不太一样这里面应该让它有一点弹性让学生会跟学校之间不是铁板一块的关系我想这块是教育部本期之前也有参与过学生团体开过座谈会所以"},{"start":695.767,"end":710.112,"text":"在针对这个部分本席也会有自己修法的版本那我们说了学生团体的诉求之外我刚刚提到的这个学生会的财务的透明监督以及学生参与这个校园民主的部分那其实市长您刚刚讲到一个重点就是父权"},{"start":711.093,"end":733.776,"text":"那到底这个我们给的权限我们给的参与的程度到哪里其实要大家细致的讨论那我也希望说广大各方的意见尤其在22号23号我们会有一个校长的会议之后我们希望各方的意见都来参采那我们能够提出院版的条文让我们的整个的大学法"},{"start":734.116,"end":761.014,"text":"是更符合我們現在大學生他們在大學校園裡面他們所需要的他們可以因為大學法在大學校園裡面能夠不受那麼多限制但是可以充分的學習是這是我們努力的目標我們也是肯定學生會或學生組織願意跳出來來協助大學跟教育部這塊的推動謝謝次長 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謝謝主席有請朱次長好 請朱次長委員好次長好我想20年的討論"},{"start":29.232,"end":50.189,"text":"不可能在兩天內就一切都解決啦你們現在這份報告整理所有其他人的說法然後就說1月22 23還要再聽其他人說法再聽下去會不會再一個20年啊2005年來這個我們的大學法修正超過20年來沒有進行全盤的檢討"},{"start":52.355,"end":67.656,"text":"20年前2005年是什麼狀態沒有iPhone當年還是3310的年代我們現在用3310年代的大學法規在做我們的高教的治理這樣合理嗎所以次長下個會期有沒有機會願版送進來立院審查"},{"start":69.312,"end":88.279,"text":"更穩報告 這是我們努力目標我們在2022 23我們跟下長會議執行意見之後這個我們都知道了 報告都寫了下個會期提出來 會提出我們的一個共識的版本那接下來也想問一下次長沒有學生會有學校嗎"},{"start":89.636,"end":108.288,"text":"沒有學生會有學校嗎學生是我們學校非常重要的主題不只是非常重要吧沒有學生就沒有學校吧認同吧是是嘛所以您剛剛有一句話講得很好啊我們在校長領選的時候要有代表性的人參與嘛學生有沒有代表性"},{"start":108.908,"end":137.071,"text":"有有嘛所以呢我們現在想要看公私立大學的校長臨選委員會就應該要明定有學生代表去納入嘛那我們12月底剛通過三讀的這個青年基本法也明定了兩年內要完備相關的法制18歲的青年要有選舉罷免創制複決的權益我們青年要擁有這樣的權益了結果不能決定自己校門裡面的事啊"},{"start":137.965,"end":154.846,"text":"這個不會太荒謬了嗎那我們看到你們教育部提供的資料謝謝你們做了統計到了2025年的7月教育部所屬的45所國立大學的校院已經有29校在校長遴選的規章裡面有學生代表一人"},{"start":157.25,"end":173.765,"text":"64%既然大學端已經確認實務上可行了那就可以加速推動立法為什麼不能做那還有很多人會說那各國的情況呢我們已經都整理好了德國的族群大學治理模式裡面就有學生共同參與決策"},{"start":175.006,"end":190.857,"text":"美國的大學校長領選不論公私立也都有比如說私立的哈佛大學就有學生可以直接參與甚至直接寄發40萬封的信件給所有的師生裡面也有學生諮詢委員會"},{"start":192.418,"end":218.057,"text":"那也不用擔心最終董事會還是可以由董事會來做決定所以台灣的私校也可以用相同的模式所以次長我們今天既然有這個大學法的詢答能不能你幫我們表達一下你們教育部真實的意見不要講說20年我告訴各位1908年胡適就在爭取學生自治"},{"start":219.397,"end":244.855,"text":"當時啊 160名學生覺得學生自治沒有被重視直接放而退學 成立新公學一個超過一百年的學生爭取的東西你現在不表達意見整理什麼公民團體啦 學校啦你再整理兩天也整理不完嘛我再給你兩百年也整理不完可不可以表達一下明確的表達支持跟肯定"},{"start":245.987,"end":260.613,"text":"公立大學校長領選委員會可以納入學生代表可不可以好 跟委員報告這個方向就是教育部努力的目標好那因為公立大學目前確實像委員講我剛剛更正一下就是29校已經有學生代表在裡面我幫你算好 64%對"},{"start":262.014,"end":277.65,"text":"那另外在私立學校我也可以看到我們有整理出來私立學校對這一塊是比較保留但是教育部目前也認為以校長遴選必須要有代表性跟多元性所以我們也會努力的朝這方面來跟私校所以支持入法的方向嘛"},{"start":278.03,"end":304.596,"text":"對不對這塊我們會好 謝謝點頭了所以我們就這個態度很棒你們把這樣的態度放到這個報告裡面我想我們今天這個詢答真的會大家會非常非常的感動那我想第二個要跟次長探討的修法方向是大學教師的評鑑制度本席也是來自教學現場尤其是大學我們發現有很多評鑑制度殘害教師權益的狀況"},{"start":305.876,"end":311.514,"text":"大學法第21條規定是什麼呢評鑑的制度是在協助教師"},{"start":312.881,"end":335.72,"text":"我直接念出來啦教學專業發展改善教學品質我講的這十二個字六個六個一組裡面有哪兩個字是最重要的市長你可以說嗎教學結果咧現在我們看到大學的現場行政權介入論文掛帥這符合嗎這符合嗎"},{"start":339.421,"end":366.505,"text":"跟委員報告 評鑑來講因為大學來講教學服務研究是三塊那主要評鑑還是在教學跟研究因為教學跟研究其實某種程度沒有 等一下嘛對不起 次長我剛剛就說六個字六個字一組哪一個字是重點教學嘛你現在突然又把研究偷渡進來顯然就不符合大學法規嘛那我們也根據監察院113年的調查報告就講了有萬年助理教授的現象"},{"start":367.245,"end":391.814,"text":"為什麼萬年 明明就是教學教學你就硬要給他搞一個研究研究我們就要講 有非常多狀況甚至還要講說 你要捐錢要多上課 有多捐錢的可以加分多上課 超中點費的可以加分你們有沒有去檢討有沒有說學校不可以這樣做有 各位報告"},{"start":392.934,"end":418.404,"text":"過去很多學校把它不當了去跟招生跟一些行政服務掛鉤這個教育部有告記兩次都有多次嚴正的去要求嚴正要求有沒有辦法學校只要違法的我們一定會從招生名額加補助去處理違什麼法你告訴我違什麼法違什麼法我們就是要用大學法來明確的去優化這個狀況你們就沒有具體改善"},{"start":419.56,"end":426.433,"text":"所以我們想要講啦我想大家的心是一致的但是現在執行上就是有困難"},{"start":427.984,"end":453.009,"text":"我想還不只是評鑑未過的狀況還有一個什麼專案教師專案教師你聽過嗎一樣監察院也來糾舉教育部這是他的說法我以下講的全部是監察院的詞彙教育部放任大學以大量專案教師長期替代編制內的專任教師的員額"},{"start":454.329,"end":475.182,"text":"背離政策的目的都讀過吧監察院的糾正吧我用的形容詞全部是監察院使用的我沒有加油添醋喔最後呢說工作環境薪酬不合理的情形置若罔聞啊教育部的做法你知道是什麼嗎市長你知道教育部的做法是什麼嗎"},{"start":476.648,"end":497.602,"text":"上限令 上限令砍一個專案教師給十萬對不對 知道嘛 對不對我們是希望引導他轉正而不是去引導轉正那我好啊 引導轉正結果咧你知道數字嗎 你知道數字嗎 次長106年到113年專案教師變少還變多你如果引導那專案教師應該變少嘛變少還變多"},{"start":501.839,"end":518.911,"text":"市長變少還變多我時間有限106到113變少還變多有增加一些什麼增加一些4%變6%這叫增加一些喔這叫增加一些喔到6.64%的老師是專案教師在高校體系合理嗎"},{"start":520.974,"end":542.527,"text":"這個我們不用修改嗎這個你可以用一份這樣的報告說A說 B說 C說 D說可以這樣子嗎市長這一次大學法為什麼大家很急很希望討論我知道很多人還有很多意見都很好但是教育部的態度要拿出來教師權益受到侵害"},{"start":543.527,"end":569.034,"text":"教育部就是要出來保護大家教師權益受到侵害學生家長就受到侵害能不能當場承諾支持大學法修法重新檢討教師評鑑制度支不支持好 這應該的好 謝謝次長我想教育部的次長在這裡真的是勇於認識剛剛我們兩個訴求都直接勇於說我們支持"},{"start":569.634,"end":587.627,"text":"那我也希望接下來22號 23號大家會有很完整充分的討論下一步 下一次出來的意見希望能夠有自己的看法不要擔心 不要害怕你們一定站在人民這裡人民也會站在你們這裡接下來 次長我們要來談到AI高校的議題"},{"start":589.669,"end":600.618,"text":"當然過去的事我們還是要處理未來的事我們也要看接下來高教的議題您認為AI的發展對大學文憑來講利多還是利空"},{"start":602.418,"end":624.54,"text":"大學文憑 增值還是貶值利弊互見其實有利多有利空 我個人的觀察一半一半 沒關係 大家各自有各自的看法那我們直接幫你整理了這個Gallup有調查 2025年只有35%的美國人認為大學教育非常重要在2010年的時候是75%"},{"start":626.121,"end":650.44,"text":"那認為大學教育不太重要的人數從2010年的4%攀升到25%哈佛大學也做了研究其實Freshman不受歡迎剛大學畢業以前我們都講大學畢業即失業很不好的一句話很可能因為AI要變成事實那無獨有偶聯合報也刊登了一張世界經濟論壇所講的這個就業前景報告"},{"start":654.483,"end":674.473,"text":"其中AI大數據或者是寫作、數學、行銷媒體全部會被AI取代甚至軟體、程式設計這都是非常非常大比例的甚至馬斯克在一天前講了他說我不太明白現在為什麼還會有人要上大學"},{"start":675.473,"end":704.522,"text":"當然我們不一定要認同馬斯克但是我們想要跟次長講的是高教體制很可能會受到挑戰而且不是一半一半很不幸的有可能會變成利空請問教育部採取了哪些因應措施你也承認有利空你採取了哪些因應措施我想我們現在在AI的人才培育以後如果大原則有四個第一個具體措施我不要講原則原則大家都會講措施"},{"start":705.575,"end":717.451,"text":"ActionAction就是我們要教學生能夠去應用AI工具我們現在台卡大聯盟這個部分就是會來做好 第二個讓學生能夠運用這些工具去解決問題"},{"start":719.073,"end":737.171,"text":"这是原则第二个action是什么所以这个部分第二个action是什么我们从国中小的相关的一个课程的引导跟大学这一块我们在那个学分学成或是透过一些加值的课程来让学生能够去解决我实验有限第三个第三个要负责任的去"},{"start":737.831,"end":758.729,"text":"Action是什么这是原则嘛所以这一块将来也会在一些有关于AI的使用伦理的部分市长我打断你啦因为有时间有限其实你刚刚回去听你会发现你讲的很多是原则啦里面第一个Action抬卡我马上来讲但是呢刚刚你讲的什么指引啊我们昨天也提过了啦"},{"start":759.449,"end":786.747,"text":"次長也都說要回去檢討我們來看TICA再給我一點時間TICA我們擔心的是什麼因為有不同的人要做比較深度AI的教育或比較基礎的教育結果我們去問教育部說你們有沒有分說到底來上TICA的這個課程科系的比例文科的 理科的每一個大學的科系剛剛這個記者都講得很清楚有沒有統計次長你知道有沒有統計"},{"start":787.97,"end":811.87,"text":"我們都有資料我們可以分析什麼有資料我們要的時候就說沒有統計啊誰說謊 誰台卡來修課學生我直接念給您聽啦要後續研議收集針裂聯盟學校學系及學生修讀情形你們沒有啊所以我們可以來統計所以我問你過去有沒有統計你跟我說有有 我之後會統計"},{"start":813.419,"end":834.677,"text":"市長我們不要這樣但沒關係有開始做就好因為我們現在就是急啊就要有action啊我們目標一致但是要有動作好不好還有什麼還有百億啊我剩最後兩頁啦最後一頁啦百億2025年9月編了100億五個月過去了做了什麼"},{"start":835.956,"end":848.558,"text":"什麼Action你們說要什麼人才啦什麼研究型大學Action有沒有Action結果我們問了索取資料到剛剛啊我還沒拿到啊"},{"start":851.112,"end":867.187,"text":"這是什麼 這是詐騙集團嗎不是吧跟委員報告因為我們的作業要點是前一兩天有來做說明跟相關的學校已經在做說明收集他們的意見你已經通過了對 但是這一遇到現在五個月你現在才開始在說明"},{"start":868.248,"end":890.724,"text":"跟委员报告因为这一笔预算是从115跟116编列编列在115年跟116年是特别预算的部分那因为细致的一个作业需要学校实务作业面上能够比较能够符合现状所以我们有做说明您刚刚也说了今年就可以用的你1月才在说明讨论我们跟你们问要怎么执行你们资料也给不出来"},{"start":891.485,"end":906.747,"text":"沒有關係我們要動作快要有動作而且動作要快所以次長我想有一些委員動輒提出什麼115年度的預算案說什麼不省業務受到影響本席要說錢丟給教育部"},{"start":907.83,"end":922.15,"text":"完全沒有回聲五個月說現在要說明所以給了錢也沒有用如果有什麼專案可以提出來預算新興的項目也可以提出來也可以來說明目前我沒有看到任何說明沒有任何人來找我們說明"},{"start":923.231,"end":937.285,"text":"AI的發展對於高等教育利空還是利多大家可以持續討論但是我們擔心萬一利空您剛剛也承認會有利空我們就要準備而且要有action完全取決政府如何因應"},{"start":938.733,"end":965.312,"text":"我想次長沒關係如果您有回應可以會後給我報告但是我想要講的是如果我們的部長一心只熱衷政治無心推展教育業務如果底下的業務單位有出現螺絲鬆散的狀況我想也是預料之中但我想次長您今天勇於認識我們還是要給您肯定但是最終如果我們沒有辦法趕快做大學法的更多討論甚至修正"},{"start":966.192,"end":991.89,"text":"受苦的會是一屆又一屆的大學生我想今天藉由這樣的一個機會我們也是督促 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就人員的移動當然有一些可能比如說像沒關係好你就簡單講人員移動還有學校的交流學校人員移動還有有些是技術因為我們有些關鍵的技術我們會限制它跟國外的一些交流大概就這兩個"},{"start":66.94,"end":85.502,"text":"那现在我们的教育部部长他今天没有来他大概是很害怕来吧那么他自己身为一个台独顽固分子不敢去大陆那他为什么要限制所有的老师们所有的学校的教育团体都不可以去大陆去进行学术交流"},{"start":87.433,"end":114.88,"text":"教育部並沒有限制我們是提醒學校在進行到附大陸做學習比較的時候你們該提醒嗎你們該提醒嗎你認為說所有的高校人員都沒有這樣的一個常識知識不知道自己保護自己嗎去做學術交流會有產生什麼危害如果說老師們自己擔心的話學校自己擔心的話他就可以他自己可以不用去啊他可以不去啊但是問題是現在作為一個教育部部長"},{"start":116.67,"end":122.134,"text":"他可以做這樣子的一個建議提醒嗎請問一下教育部今年有沒有編列兩岸交流的預算有所以你們是鼓勵還是不鼓勵"},{"start":127.301,"end":152.139,"text":"我们鼓励跟各国一起做交流我先讲两岸交流预算因为两岸交流预算是特别的嘛是另外有一个便利预算当然啦这个基本上就是每个高教学校还有这个里面的教授们要去哪一个地方基于他学术的专业去哪里去交流我想大家都可以自行的判断本席真的认为教育不管太多了"},{"start":153.379,"end":179.929,"text":"教育部部長自己是井底蛇蛙自己因為意識形態作祟他不去就算了那為什麼教育部長要做這樣的提醒而且甚至你們現在還修改了行政規則根本就是違反兩岸人民關係條例還對所有的大專院校的老師未來去大陸進行交流要申請教育部核准是嗎"},{"start":182.932,"end":197.876,"text":"老師可以去那當然只要有公務身份的像公務人員或是教師如果要赴大陸的話我們當然都有一些提醒事情所以如果說他不是公務人員身份的老師那他去大陸進行學術交流需要事前申請核准嗎一般老師赴大陸對"},{"start":203.268,"end":231.366,"text":"這不是教育部核准啊他要行政只有行政職的部分我們教育部有管制非行政職沒有兼任行政職的老師要赴大陸我們有一些提醒事項一些什麼事項提醒因為畢竟大陸現在是委會列入城市所以你們沒有要求要核准嘛對不對行政職的一定就跟公務人員一樣行政職的要核准然後非行政職的不需要核准也不需要事前的就是總之是不需要事前的申請許可"},{"start":231.986,"end":260.866,"text":"那个部分要回到学校他本来老师请假要去哪边要离开他的工作岗位本来就回到学校请假规定要去是就回到学校的请假规定所以学校的请假规则如果没有规定说非得一定要事先提出许可的话那么基本上就老师可以自由移动不管他现在是在放假的时间或是他是在学校的开学的时间对不对寒暑假时间老师们就可以自由移动"},{"start":261.526,"end":278.258,"text":"对要依照学校请假规定不是说假日你要去像我们出国我们也必须要跟单位报备我是说回到学校的请假规定现在学校里面的老师周末假日或是寒暑假出国基本上是不需要向学校请假的"},{"start":279.039,"end":302.873,"text":"就回到學校的請教規定 如果學校規定沒有 那我們當然就尊重學校但是兼行聖旨就不是一樣 就不是這樣子好 然後 OK那接下來本期要再進行到第二個問題喔就是 來我們看一下大學法第13條大學自主的精神基本上也包含就是大專院校要聆聘就是各個院系所聆聘主管 對吧"},{"start":304.482,"end":326.768,"text":"依照系大学法的规定院长系所主任等等他是依照学校的组织规程的程序来选出系所的主管包含院长请问次长您知不知道现在有多少的大学里面没有依照大学法的规定去定定各系所或院的这个主管临选办法"},{"start":328.646,"end":355.659,"text":"因為這個規定要在主規那主規的部分所以如果說校的組織規程沒有規就是它沒有說是要求各個系所要訂或是它根本不准各個系所去訂定的這種領選辦法的話是不是各個系所就無權可以去自己去頒訂自己去制定領選辦法對 它一定要訂因為到選法已經顯得清楚就必須在組織規定去明訂它的產所以所有的系所"},{"start":356.579,"end":383.428,"text":"院都应该要自己去定他的临选办法他的系统的这个主管的临选办法那么依照现在的这个就是我们有经过去调查一些大学里面现在的目前的情况就是有些系统单位他自己选了依照自己的办法他自己推选出来了主管然后到了校长那边校长要去勾选"},{"start":385.168,"end":410.22,"text":"竟然可以去勾選根本不是系所所推薦出來的所推選出來的教授來當主管本期這邊就收到類似像陳情案只有一個人推選的主管竟然校長可以只有一位被推選的候選人校長竟然就選了一票產生的主管"},{"start":412.079,"end":430.073,"text":"因為這其實我也可能要回到那個學校它的主規的規定是什麼因為大學規定是說從教師中選出那怎麼選出的方法有可能是大家推選有可能是你去選這不要看各校的主規"},{"start":431.794,"end":446.366,"text":"本席先要提醒就是各校的主规有时候它可能已经明显违反大学法的精神了而且各校的主规有没有符合民主原则民主程序如果说今天可以放任让一个校长他完全不尊重系所"},{"start":448.365,"end":472.074,"text":"教師的投票共同決定到底要推哪一個系所主管出來那麼甚至當選的這個系所主管沒有經過過半數老師們的支持可能甚至只有一票或兩票的支持那麼校長就可以自己決定那這樣的話其實有落實大學自主的精神嗎本席是希望"},{"start":474.135,"end":493.485,"text":"可以把这个议题可能发个文然后请各个大学提供相关的他们目前的组织法的一些情况已经有哪些系所自己本身没有临选办法或者是说有哪些大学里面是各个校长可以直接去指定"},{"start":494.265,"end":517.459,"text":"系所主管的我觉得这个部分基本上它会影响到整个系所的大学自主的这样的精神那么本期是希望教育部能够尽速给你们一个月的时间好吗一个月的时间去汇整相关的资料而且也要注意一件事情就是如果说大学"},{"start":518.499,"end":533.657,"text":"有違反大學法裡面的相關規定的時候譬如說他不從副教授級以上的老師然後去選這個系所主任那麼有沒有相關的罰則規定目前看起來大學法裡面是沒有任何的處罰規定"},{"start":535.417,"end":563.066,"text":"根本包括因為法已經明定如果說學校他不是從副教授級選出來的再不我們就會透過像獎補助一些經費的要求來要求學校改正我們的了解只要我們因為我們每年都會定一句現在還有一個問題就是說有些學校他可能定的更嚴格他是從他只能從教授裡面去選擇這個系所主管但是明明這個系所可能他目前沒有教授願意擔任"},{"start":564.83,"end":579.712,"text":"主管然後就是由副教授來擔任可是卻又給副教授又不發所謂的主管家籍其實大學裡面還蠻多這樣子的問題那本席認為說基本上大學法裡面定的很清楚就是由副教授"},{"start":580.433,"end":607.87,"text":"以上就可以选去推选细索主管所以如果说这个细索的办法里面就是说我可以副教授以上就可以去推选但是学校的组织规程却又只限定是只有教授才能够当细索主管这个可能就会造成一个法律上的一个冲突好 那我们会来大概盘点一下那一个月内跟委员做说明好 那就麻烦次长了谢谢"},{"start":608.953,"end":611.677,"text":"好 謝謝翁曉琳委員 管委員請回座"}]}},{"id":"17185","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17185","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68578fb36a44e90e4694f0709a7fb2e7483081761262ea6c52fe60afccc594893ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「人工生殖法修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十四) 委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 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邱振軍 蘇清泉及葉元芝說明提案指去由衛生福利部部長 司法院少年及家事廳廳長鐘宗林刑事廳法官黃湘瑩及法務部檢察司司長張曉雯說明後委員陳昭芝等二十人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長 法務部檢察司司長"},{"start":1867.475,"end":1895.498,"text":"司法院少年及家事廳廳長及內政部警政署副署長李文章及各相關主管等及其答覆委員傅坤祺及審發會所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報本次會議有修正動議議案決議一 說明及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三 家庭暴力防治法部分條文修正草案等八案另則其繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":1898.12,"end":1920.428,"text":"好 請委會上市議事有錯或遺漏之處那如果沒有 我們議事就確定 那本會議議程為審查及繼續審查人工生素法修正草案計20案那現在來介紹在場的委員及列席官員好我們第一位是林淑雯林委員"},{"start":1922.403,"end":1949.876,"text":"介紹官員介紹委員林淑玲委員我沒有說什麼好再來是吳佩儀吳委員好好我就從這邊因為先都順序不曉得來李月琴林委員好然後范雲范委員王一聰王委員黃婕黃委員好沈伯陽沈委員"},{"start":1951.684,"end":1980.872,"text":"王振旭王委員還有我們這邊是廖偉祥總召廖偉祥召委好 跟你相關羅志祥委員王育銘委員盧憲伊委員陳倩祺委員好對不起 倩祺委員對不起不好意思"},{"start":1981.674,"end":2008.232,"text":"然後 蘇清泉委員然後圖謙吉委員我故意晚一點講到你們 看能不能講出來你們也不一定能夠講出來好 OK 好 謝謝介紹蘇清泉的官員衛生福利部部長石崇良國健署署長沈慶芬法規會參事陳信誠"},{"start":2012.23,"end":2040.082,"text":"华欧部参事汪南军内政部副政司专门委员潘盈忠专委陈明明然后科研陈桂伟谢谢司法院少年及家事厅法官郭耀明行政院性变平等处代理处长林秋军金管会保险局副处长许文君还有承政部副税署专门委员吴秀琳谢谢"},{"start":2050.564,"end":2064.128,"text":"那我們本次在交付之提案僅進行提案說明不另作詢答那接下來我們就請這個衛部司部長先來做說明五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2070.26,"end":2089.156,"text":"主席 各位委員今天承蒙大院安排那麼討論有關於這個行政院還有委員所提人工生殖法修正草案共20案那麼我們就這個本部的提案的部分呢那麼先做說明那麼這個法案呢"},{"start":2089.896,"end":2101.921,"text":"其實討論了很久從109年開始的那麼就召開過兩場的公聽會30餘次的專家會議那麼同時在這期間也曾經對針對這個草案對外來預告那麼同時這個也"},{"start":2107.003,"end":2123.971,"text":"依據消除對婦女一切歧視形式歧視公約第12條那麼保障這個婦女取得包含生育保健服務的權利並在兼顧婦女生育健康及人工生殖子女的最佳利益的前提之下那麼我們"},{"start":2125.011,"end":2143.036,"text":"提出了這個修法的版本那麼共有三大重點第一個就是強化對於子女最佳利益的保障那麼增訂人工生殖的適用對象需先經子女的最佳利益評估並由人工生殖機構確認完成子女最佳利益評估"},{"start":2143.896,"end":2158.441,"text":"適合失訴之後那麼使得實施同時進一步的完善人工生殖子女的法律地位以穩固親子的關係其次呢在維護婦女的生育健康的部分那麼草案呢則開放"},{"start":2159.781,"end":2183.448,"text":"完成結婚登記之女童性伴侶及未婚女性得以合法接受人工生殖技術那麼最後再提升生殖人工生殖的醫療品質跟管理的部分那麼草案也擴大了人工生殖機構的許可辦法的授權範圍那麼並且授權在施行細則相關執法那麼可以滾動式的調整管理規範並且增訂了"},{"start":2185.929,"end":2205.691,"text":"手術跟侵入性治療的知情同意程序來強化生殖細胞的捐贈還有使用的管理規範至於在其他委員所提的修正版本裡頭涉及到有些對於子女的最佳利益的原則"},{"start":2207.032,"end":2226.554,"text":"我們認為這個是在這個法案當中是非常重要的所以希望能夠在各個委員的版本裡面有涉及到這個受訴對象資格要件的時候呢都能夠對於子女的最佳利益進行規範那麼另外有涉及到代理孕母的部分那麼因為在這個"},{"start":2228.436,"end":2246.451,"text":"草案裡頭呢那麼仍然有很多的疑慮包含這個親子關係的相關的法律還有代孕的商業化還有對婦女剝削買賣那麼子女這些相關的疑慮那麼都還需要再進一步的討論所以我們建議呢跟"},{"start":2248.212,"end":2273.534,"text":"這個目前的這個版本先脫鉤來處理那麼另外在人工生殖子女的法律地位的部分那麼我們在這個行政院的版本裡面呢那麼對於這個相關的這個設計條文的設計包含現行民法所稱的婚姻關係之間的這個釐清呢我們在審議逐條的時候那麼再提出我們的建議看法"},{"start":2273.894,"end":2299.063,"text":"那麼最後那麼謝謝各位委員對於本部的指教跟監督我們在此致謝謝謝好謝謝那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在請議事人員宣讀提案條文內容若有修正動議請好OK來請林書文委員"},{"start":2307.955,"end":2336.312,"text":"主席我們有程序上的發言就是說因為今天排了20個版本這20個版本裡面有這個單身未婚女性可以使用人工生殖的然後最大的差異還有一個就是有代理孕母簡單來說那大家比較相對高度社會共識的大概就是單身未婚女性的人工生殖的使用"},{"start":2337.052,"end":2346.697,"text":"但是對代理孕母的爭議社會上大概是沒有辦法取得共識以外我們認為知識體大因為聯合國也剛發布了一個針對婦女和兒童小孩權益的通過了一個"},{"start":2359.383,"end":2377.584,"text":"的文書所以在這個裡面我們聯合國也希望說代理孕母的母親他們指出一個現象這個代理孕母通常都是因為經濟需求居多而作為代理孕母的"},{"start":2378.164,"end":2397.578,"text":"那在這個過程裡面大多數的代理孕母都來自低收入的家庭跟委託代理孕母去生小孩的委託父母相比社會地位比較低而且這些女性在這個整個代孕的過程很多"},{"start":2399.4,"end":2413.649,"text":"這個保護上的機制都不足而且風險極高那在這裡喔我要請大家呼籲大家要審慎的看待這件事情因為呢現在帶領母生的是小孩而不是產出一個產品"},{"start":2414.758,"end":2433.967,"text":"那在這個裡面他會試射到被生出來的這個小孩的兒童的權益的評估會受到影響那這個國家我們做出了對兒童權益上的評估了嗎大家提案的人都認為說這不會傷及兒童權益嗎我舉幾個例子"},{"start":2435.854,"end":2449.925,"text":"如果這個代理母生出生產的過程裡面然後因為生產事故結果產出的兒童受到窘迫產生了腦性麻痺結果委託的父母不願意買單了"},{"start":2451.266,"end":2477.573,"text":"那這個小孩是誰的責任那這個小孩又何其無辜如果是自己的孩子母親懷胎10個月我再辛苦我都會好好的保護他這是我的小孩可是這裡是他人的小孩而他只是一個幫忙生小孩的代理孕母有幾個代理孕母會願意養他一輩子那這個責任誰要承擔要怎麼承擔"},{"start":2478.993,"end":2499.145,"text":"然後另外呢如果小孩還沒有生出來父母親就離婚了然後兩個人都不要這個小孩那怎麼辦如果在這個過程裡面生出來有難以想像的基因缺陷那這個定制的代孕的委託的父母他也不想要領養了怎麼辦"},{"start":2500.706,"end":2507.811,"text":"然後呢 如果這個代理孕母在生產 大家都知道生產就是有風險的生產的過程 如果這個代理孕母死亡了"},{"start":2516.636,"end":2543.361,"text":"那這個風險他的家庭也有自己的小孩誰要去顧這個小孩那再來說大家都把他說我們這個不能商業化那不商業化商業化還能拿錢不能商業化把價格壓到市場裡面不是市場機制和競爭價格結果變成只能給營養金還要剝削這個代理運母假裝我們不是商業化其實"},{"start":2545.703,"end":2572.038,"text":"這些委託的父母更高興因為不能付錢所以委託的金額只能給營養金價格更便宜所以這個問題在制度面設計的時候請問你們對婦女的權益的評估做了什麼有足夠的評估嗎所以今天在這裡我不要講政黨上說要不要脫鉤我們的意思是說這人工生殖法人工這個"},{"start":2574.676,"end":2592.339,"text":"人工生殖這個法律在規定什麼這一部整個法律都在規定人工生殖那操作的機構要怎麼規範然後這個委託人資格是什麼然後就是這樣那你的代理運母跟這整部法的概念根本都是"},{"start":2593.18,"end":2621.689,"text":"不相干的代理育母市社的社会的层次更宽更广问题更多更复杂还有伦理的还有其他的那我们今天把他们大杂烩放在一起审这真的是这样子下去我想第一个除了很难取得共识以外也不是妥当的把代理育母的这一个法制化的规范放到人工生殖法里面也是"},{"start":2622.932,"end":2647.812,"text":"便宜行事的我認為是不妥的再來陳委員不好意思我說陳金輝委員我不是說陳昭之委員你是人工生殖領域的這個醫師和從業的這個產業的人那你提一個有利於人工生殖的這一個產業的條文的修正還提了"},{"start":2649.453,"end":2671.969,"text":"對 大家也知道不孕症的這個負責這個處理不孕症的醫生未來如果通過的話 行李也會給很好的但是呢 這不用利益迴避嗎你是從業的這個醫師然後你在這個裡面法案通過會獲取利益其實你更應該要利益迴避"},{"start":2673.417,"end":2700.459,"text":"你沒有迴避提法案還要跳到第一線 而且還在人工生殖法裡面不應該放到這裡面來處理的代理運母上面 放到這裡面來現在立法院 大家都這樣都沒有倫理 也沒有責任 大家都不用利益迴避了有利於自己的產業的 然後就趕快提案 就趕快通過"},{"start":2702.574,"end":2726.914,"text":"我是覺得說最好是不要這樣子所以我在這裡也是建議我們的教委就是說其實你把二十案都擺在座位座位上這件事就不妥當了這就沒辦法 這不同邏輯 不同領域一個是香蕉 一個是蘋果你把香蕉蘋果要放在座位上說我們座位來討論它會好吃不好吃有適當沒適當 那就不一樣了"},{"start":2730.154,"end":2736.205,"text":"人工這個升值這個技術的規範誰可以使用倫理上機構要怎麼規範跟"},{"start":2738.991,"end":2763.904,"text":"要不要開放這個社會代理孕母給有錢人生的孩子還是給少數的這個特殊需求的人生的孩子這要另外另立一部法律把它拆開另立一部法律才是慎重的正重的你要保護到兒童要保護到婦女權益的所以我們建議是不是說應該"},{"start":2766.127,"end":2776.418,"text":"兩個法律要拆開啦 要脫鉤啦然後審查 今天的審查今天在這裏 標刮下去很簡單的但是不妨忘記 今天在標刮的是4名人工生殖 你去用代理運務把它放下來代理運務生出來的孩子是一個孩子不是一個4名 不是一個生產一個產品"},{"start":2788.86,"end":2804.749,"text":"是一條死命然後代理孕母也是一個人她不是一個生產工具把女人的子宮當成生產工具然後可以在這裡買賣這個社會好像真的都這樣退化到這種狀況說你生了人你就注定說有錢就應該要有錢所以我的子宮就要被人家買走"},{"start":2817.919,"end":2824.721,"text":"不想要也得要 大家都知道情勢所逼 經濟所逼嘛好好的人如果沒有經濟的訴求如果沒有這個困難 什麼人要去做代理孕母做代理孕母 敢不願付出風險這個風險一出來 誰要買單身材小孩如果有問題 這個是要怎麼解決"},{"start":2844.367,"end":2858.52,"text":"陳委員因為你自己個人 陳昭之委員為了一個個人的需求然後就要把它全面合法化 這樣檢討如果買也沒關係 你要另外立一部法律好好的討論 好好的架構讓它 我剛剛講的這些情勢不會發生"},{"start":2866.408,"end":2894.605,"text":"不是只有符合你不孕的女性的權益你也要符合代理孕母的保障啊也要符合這個國家和社會的整體的利益啊我沒有說絕對反對但是絕對反對放在人工生殖法裡面啦我們反對的是不能放在人工生殖法裡面硬塞進來草草寥寥 青菜就好過"},{"start":2896.485,"end":2899.388,"text":"知識體大不可以潮潮潮知識體大合規所以"},{"start":2903.342,"end":2925.875,"text":"在這個人工生殖法裡面把代孕寥寥草草的放進來才是沒有女權概念沒有人權概念沒有兒童權利的概念也沒有婦女權利的概念隨便寥草的放9條只有9條的條文代理孕母只有9條的條文這個社會可不可以接受"},{"start":2931.357,"end":2950.008,"text":"代理運母的規範社會要開放代理運母只有九條條文這個保障夠嗎這九條條文談得簡單啊但是 孩子是四名代理運母的也是四名不是用錢 交九條條文就給他買斷"},{"start":2953.035,"end":2964.802,"text":"不要用九個條文就解決了一個就立了一個允許代理孕母的合法化的不然高調就買回這個社會的倫理就要買回這個社會跟國家的身份"},{"start":2970.786,"end":2988.097,"text":"列9條法律會造成多少孩子的問題造成多少家庭的問題造成多少女性的問題造成階級不公的問題造成經濟弱勢被剝削的問題9條法律夠嗎"},{"start":2992.401,"end":2996.529,"text":"陳九條陳昭之委員我要叫你陳九條嗎陳九條代理運母夠嗎"},{"start":3001.912,"end":3026.909,"text":"你的成9條 足以保障了這一個代理孕母和這個小孩嗎不可以這樣擬蟲啦 我知道藍白表決就過了啦但是就不可以這樣啦這個社會 真的這樣代理孕母以前10%的孩子還有自己的卵子 現在全部都是白人的女人的子宮只剩下生產的作用"},{"start":3028.308,"end":3035.692,"text":"然後你用9條只有乘9條然後就要來說整個啊 統計啊 合法啦整個國家 整個社會未來要付出的成本會更大好好 謝謝OK那個陳經緯委員完之後再換黃姐委員好不好那我先補充 再來陳柏洋委員我再補充介紹一下這個陳經緯委員然後再來是陳昭芝委員 謝謝"},{"start":3059.178,"end":3060.751,"text":"那你请曾经委员"},{"start":3068.226,"end":3094.486,"text":"主席還有各位委員各位官員大家好其實我在這邊是很希望呼籲今天的會議是停留在理性然後科學我們可以援引非常多的醫學一起來討論當然我也請林淑芬委員可以高抬貴手根據國建署的統計還有內政部的統計我們今年1到11月台灣的新生兒人數僅有9萬"},{"start":3097.488,"end":3124.814,"text":"原本我在做總諮詢的時候大家都說有一個12萬新生兒保衛戰可是1月10號就快要發布新的新生兒數據可能只有10萬出頭或者是不到10萬那當然呢這個您很敬重的前輩也就是我們綠營的大佬李茂聖醫師他也非常的憂心忡忡他很擔心明年的這個出生率甚至不到10萬"},{"start":3125.994,"end":3152.28,"text":"所以台灣現在正處於一個急速下滑觸目驚心的崩跌階段所以我跟所有的國民黨委員其實我們是希望大家可以每一個方向都來理性的討論有什麼方法可以幫助台灣都非常的好那我也希望林淑芬委員不要折損這麼多婦產科醫師的信心畢竟"},{"start":3153.18,"end":3180.988,"text":"大家上次有看到我們在辦人工生殖法公聽會的時候所有的婦產科醫師都有來這邊發言說第一現在想要從事這個科別的人越來越少了當你從蔡政府執政以前看到22萬的新生兒到現在是一年10萬的保衛戰甚至明年有可能是9萬8萬基本上是沒有人會從事這個行業的大家一定是往"},{"start":3181.528,"end":3204.426,"text":"其他的行業去所以如果再這樣子說的話就更多人不願意再從事這個行業了並且所有上次來發言公聽會的醫師也是兢兢業業的在做他們該做的工作幫助沒有辦法生小孩的人努力的生出小孩我個人也非常非常的辛苦"},{"start":3204.966,"end":3220.371,"text":"希望可以幫助這個生不出小孩的人為我們所有的台灣都生出台灣之子台灣之女所以我也希望今天委員會的內容都可以停留在一個理性不要人身攻擊並且科學我們這樣子來說"},{"start":3223.852,"end":3246.786,"text":"那當然在這個整個吵吵鬧鬧的階段很多人會誤以為單身的女生生育或者是女女同志生育或者是需要帶領育母是完全沒有交集的三個圓但其實不是的在臨床上我們等一下也可以請教我們的許多衛福部的官員"},{"start":3248.067,"end":3264.282,"text":"在臨床上本來我們在結婚或者是我們想要生育的這些年紀逐漸往上的時候本來就是會有一些子宮的狀態他是沒有辦法自己用自己的卵來生育的"},{"start":3264.682,"end":3293.251,"text":"那我希望我們在脫鉤如果其他人有想要脫鉤的狀態之下呢也可以充分的讓您的支持者去理解說當你是在女女同志或是你在單身女生的這個範疇內未來想應用人工生殖技術來生育其實你也必須要擁有一個非常健康的子宮否則你也會被排除在適用人工生殖的這個領域"},{"start":3294.191,"end":3322.38,"text":"之外的第三在這邊還是一樣非常肯定我們國建署衛福部在2024年5月預告出來的版本因為其實在不是立法委員的時候我們就常常以專家的身份陪同衛福部做一些考察或是外國的學者來訪問那他們在做這個2024年5月預告的草案這個是衛福部官員"},{"start":3323.26,"end":3337.952,"text":"呕心沥血經過到了非常多這個成熟的國家去做考察還有跟他們的官員做交流所以這個版本是非常的詳細的那這個版本同時也參照了以前賴清德總統"},{"start":3338.993,"end":3365.789,"text":"他是在立法院第一個提出人工生殖法相關法案的立法委員他是從民國80年就開始討論賴清德總統還為此分別在民國91年95年提案兩次兩次開放的範圍都非常的廣那我當然覺得目前我們其實我是希望所有在這個房間裡面不管是媒體朋友不管是官員不管是委員或者是"},{"start":3368.17,"end":3383.698,"text":"關心這個議題的人我們每一個人如果在這邊把自己當成一起來想方設法解決台灣少子化問題的一份子那就是我們可以實踐我們身為立法委員的責任了那在這邊也希望"},{"start":3384.218,"end":3401.775,"text":"主席可以控制今天的場面可以維持在理性理性科學並且是為台灣目前這個少子化嚴峻的狀況之下一起所做的討論我們也可以來參照每一個國家每一個國家現在現行的制度然後我們來列成自己"},{"start":3402.355,"end":3416.911,"text":"台灣目前適用的方案那我也希望在這邊可以重申其實剛剛講的這些範疇的人每一個人都是有交集的每一個人都是有交集的並不是通過了這個脫鉤的版本這群人"},{"start":3417.512,"end":3443.449,"text":"最後如果他並沒有擁有一個健康的子宮他就沒有辦法適用這樣子的人工生殖法那這個是大家要的嗎我覺得今天應該我們停留在這個理性的討論而不是互相的做人身攻擊也希望大家為台灣所有還願意從事婦產科還願意從事集中症還願意從事這些沒有人要去做的內科外科等等的科別"},{"start":3443.929,"end":3448.934,"text":"小兒科等等的科別的醫師 醫護人員持續的打氣非常謝謝大家那接下來請黃婕委員"},{"start":3464.755,"end":3490.624,"text":"好 謝謝主席在進入今天的審查之前我也要針對程序來表達一下意見首先是這個人工生殖法其實這一次不管是院版還是我們很多民進黨委員的版本強調的都是這個人工生殖法的精神也就是誰可以使用這個技術以及技術上是如何規範就像剛剛陳吉輝委員講的這是非常理性非常科學的討論"},{"start":3491.664,"end":3507.735,"text":"但是代理孕母涉及的議題不只是理性科學的層面而是涉及台灣的倫理台灣的家庭 台灣的親權以及女性身體的自主權以及這些兒少小孩的利益"},{"start":3508.596,"end":3522.776,"text":"受疾的層面完全不只是技術所以我們今天在這邊把代理孕母只用9條就要放進來跟我們人工生殖法其他包括有自己子宮的所有女性放在一起審查實屬不可"},{"start":3525.834,"end":3553.901,"text":"代理孕母完全是一個新的議題新的制度新的架構怎麼可以就今天放在這裡跟我們一起審查然後還說就只是一個章節裡面只有9條就要把這麼大的一個題目放在裡面跟我們一起審查呢所以我希望今天可以讓代理孕母跟今天要審查的單身女性以及女同志這些擁有自己子宮的女性完全的脫鉤處理"},{"start":3555.501,"end":3582.023,"text":"要真的要討論代理孕母有太多太多的爭議必須要一條一條的在另外一個新的專法來處理才對而不是今天放在人工生殖法裡面就要這樣草草的通過草草的過水那再來第二個是這個審查效率的問題就如剛剛陳金輝委員說的很多女性想生的能生的其實她們都非常願意生"},{"start":3583.124,"end":3595.69,"text":"那他們願意生所以他們也等了很久那今天這部法案硬是把代理母放進來只會拖延審查的效率因為這是完全兩件不一樣的事情放在這裡審查那這些能夠生的他們還要再等我們這些沒有共識爭議這麼大的部分慢慢的一條一條討論那對於他們來說時間不等人他們是在跟時間賽跑"},{"start":3609.517,"end":3634.08,"text":"所以如果可以的話是不是今天讓有共識的部分先行先讓大家都願意支持的單身女性跟女同志的部分先上路讓這一些能夠生願意生的人盡量的可以把握時間在自己能夠這個最健康生育的狀況之下盡快的使用這個新的法律"},{"start":3635.086,"end":3649.727,"text":"那再來第三個我要講一下我們行政院性平處因為其實這其實如果真的要牽涉到代理育母的話這是一個非常重要的性別議題這也是人權的議題所以我看了一下性平處的意見但是"},{"start":3650.208,"end":3671.788,"text":"性平處給出的這個意見只有兩段完全沒有進入具體的政策評估那也沒有做任何的研究沒有做任何的功課所以我會希望我們行政院性平處你至少要提出一個代孕對於兒少人權對於弱勢女性對於婦女的影響評估報告啊"},{"start":3672.549,"end":3686.77,"text":"你連這些都沒有做那我們今天如何直接進到代理孕母這麼大的倫理爭議的題目呢那最後剛剛林淑芬委員有提到最近聯合國發布最新的報告顯示"},{"start":3687.791,"end":3712.648,"text":"他是說這個代理孕母是背離國家國際的人權共識的一個政策甚至他給的建議非常的強硬是希望說各國都應該要禁止代孕這個是國際人權的趨勢所以我在這邊也把這樣子聯合國提出的報告來跟各位分享因為大家開始實施代孕的幾個國家逐漸的發現"},{"start":3713.649,"end":3736.555,"text":"代理孕母的爭議帶來的後遺症真的太多太多了無論是說代理孕母本身的生產風險的問題還有涉及的法律侵權的問題各式各樣以及裡面涉及的是可能階級造成弱勢女性不管是在家庭內還是社會上她的經濟弱勢家庭地位的弱勢都可能造成階級的剝削"},{"start":3739.094,"end":3761.744,"text":"這涉及的層面真的非常的廣所以各國的經驗也顯示其實帶領孕母真的不是一個好的方向所以希望大家可以參考聯合國最新發布的報告來討論我們作為一個人權立國的國家台灣這麼重視人權的國家真的要讓我們國家的人權這樣的一個招牌蒙上陰影嗎"},{"start":3763.874,"end":3779.382,"text":"所以拜託要進入代論代孕的討論之前請大家先把以上的問題一個一個拿出來討論倫理過得去嗎人權過得去嗎對於兒少的權益你的心理良心真的過得去嗎"},{"start":3780.362,"end":3806.521,"text":"那剛剛陳委員也提到說少子化的問題婦產科的問題這個其實都跟今天的討論沒有關係我們在討論的是代理孕母會不會造成弱勢女性階級的剝削我們在討論的是代理孕母會不會造成這一些兒童人工生殖的子女在生產出來之後生產出來之前他的生殖的知悉權"},{"start":3807.682,"end":3836.491,"text":"他會不會因為他的身份造成這個社會的排擠也好他的制度上也好各式各樣社會層面的問題不是只有單單技術這麼簡單那最後我也要講一下我們剛剛其實提到的像陳金輝委員大家不是對你進行人身攻擊而是你的身份你的職業就是跟利益有直接的相關今天這部法律"},{"start":3837.071,"end":3864.238,"text":"一旦通過一旦照帶領育母的版本通過那可能增加的是你的生意所以我們要討論的是這個利益迴避的問題你是不是應該要跟大家說明這完全跟人身攻擊沒有關係我們要讓大家知道的是該利益迴避的時候是不是該進行利益迴避你修這個法是為了你個人的利益還是是要造福更多的女性"},{"start":3864.938,"end":3882.418,"text":"我相信我剛剛以上的說明已經講得非常非常清楚了包括聯合國最新的人權報告裡面都已經告訴大家了這個代孕爭議太大了但是有很多台灣的女性在等著人工生殖法通過"},{"start":3883.666,"end":3903.456,"text":"那我們還要讓他們等多久明明20個版本裡面多數人的共識都是單身女性跟女同志可以先行可是偏偏在今天卻是硬要把代理運母的條文用一個專章只用9條就想要"},{"start":3905.649,"end":3920.859,"text":"放進我們這個共同的討論裡面所以我希望如果可以的話先請性評處回去做一個兒少權益跟弱勢婦女的影響評估報告針對人權針對兒少先進行性別的影響評估報告"},{"start":3921.9,"end":3950.641,"text":"再來如果可以的話拜託這個代理孕母這麼多的爭議在還沒有人可以回答這些問題之前這九個條文都不能上路也希望今天我們可以把其他有共識的部分先通過先討論讓這個可以生擁有自己子宮擁有自己女性身體自主權的這些女性可以使用自己的子宮來孕育下一代"},{"start":3951.923,"end":3968.942,"text":"好那最後我來這邊念一下這個聯合國的最新的報告裡面他直接提他的題目叫做待遇是一種暴力剝削與虐待的體系請世界各國予以廢止"},{"start":3970.003,"end":3997.583,"text":"他的用字就是這麼的強硬他提到說代理育母已經演變成一個不受約束的全球性產業他驚人的市場規模跟跨國的購物剝削的模式證明任何試圖以利他為名的有限度的管制都沒有辦法應對商業剝削的普遍的現實那內容當然也提到說弱勢女性可能在其中產生的經濟暴力跟奴役"},{"start":3998.263,"end":4026.601,"text":"必須要先放棄對自己醫療的決定權限制他的人生自由等等還有心理暴力跟創傷他有提到他的研究顯示說高達33%的帶領育母可能會面臨創傷後的壓力症候群以及這些焦慮的風險那因為他被迫與新生兒分離那可能過程當中也會造成嚴重的心理創傷等等的那更不用說身體暴力跟健康的風險"},{"start":4027.862,"end":4043.181,"text":"代理孕母面臨的健康風險也是遠高於一般的孕婦這些風險包括說認成糖尿病高血壓以及婆婦產慮等等那最後是升職暴力跟脅迫包括說這個利用父母"},{"start":4044.001,"end":4069.376,"text":"合約的條款還有權利不對等的關係對於代理孕母施加升值的脅迫例如說當胎兒如果有殘疾或是多胞胎或者是他要進行性別的選擇的時候這一些委託的父母的委託方可能會強迫代理孕母進行選擇性的墮胎例如說他想要男性以台灣來說如果還是一個這麼如果社會上任何一個"},{"start":4073.178,"end":4087.448,"text":"還是非常重男輕女的家庭希望我們還是要生一個男孩的時候那結果這個代理孕母孕育出來的是女性那很可能他們就會強迫代理孕母進行墮胎更不用說"},{"start":4088.248,"end":4113.607,"text":"如果他希望的是擠胞胎他是不是會植入非常多的胚胎那社會上也有非常多的研究顯示植入多胞胎的風險會大增更不用說當如果植入的胚胎有預想不到的殘疾是不是也會強迫這個代理孕母要進行墮胎或者是強迫解約呢這些問題都沒有人可以回答"},{"start":4114.588,"end":4133.944,"text":"那這些問題現在社會上 國際上已經有非常多的例子顯示會造成非常殘酷的倫理的後果那所以這一些調查報告都已經寫得非常清楚了我們真的要繼續步上這樣的後塵嗎我們真的要繼續讓台灣這樣的人權國家蒙上這麼重的陰影嗎"},{"start":4140.202,"end":4165.52,"text":"更何況沒錯這九條裡面都沒有任何的規範包括對於代理孕母的照顧對於他們人權的守護還有這些兒少權益都沒有任何細緻的規範就是非常草率的九條所以在這邊利用程序發言我希望大家可以支持我們今天先處理單身女性以及女同志的部分"},{"start":4166.58,"end":4172.724,"text":"帶領孕母的爭議這麼大 請不要衝突上路 不要在今天一併審查 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員 接下來請沈博洋委員"},{"start":4191.742,"end":4216.301,"text":"好 謝謝趙委那這個因為今天這個其他委員會也蠻多案子的所以我簡短表述一下就可以因為這一個制度跟我這個親身的經歷有比較大的一個關係大家應該知道這個我的小孩是收養的那這個趙志偉委員其實也是那大家可以去試想一件事情就是呢當我們今天台灣有收養制度之後有沒有造成越來越多大家都一直要去收養"},{"start":4217.327,"end":4241.073,"text":"其實是沒有的為什麼呢就是因為台灣目前還是停留在非常非常傳統的這種所謂的血緣的概念所以很多人認為說自己的小孩必須要有血緣所以他們不太願意去走收養制度所以即使政府創造了這樣的一個制度然後把它完善化也很難讓這個收養在台灣變得普及這是台灣的現況"},{"start":4242.333,"end":4268.949,"text":"所以我們在講我們在西方世界就已經看到非常非常多代孕的缺點但這個代孕的缺點在台灣是會被放大為什麼就是因為重視血緣這件事大家要想一下剛剛我們講到很多代孕會有一些階級會有壓迫等等的問題但大家可以試想一件事情這個壓力絕對不是只有在弱勢女性而已它在一般的中產階級的女性照樣會出現問題為什麼"},{"start":4271.07,"end":4295.137,"text":"因為假設今天有一個女性她結婚之後結婚之後呢結果發現可能自己不容易生育或者呢她可能不想要生育那因為她有她自己的身體自主權她可以停在那裡但如果這個代孕的制度創造之後呢大家可以去想像很多的公公跟婆婆會跟這個媳婦講什麼就簡單啊你去代孕就好啦你為什麼不走代孕呢"},{"start":4296.024,"end":4314.735,"text":"也就是說這個市場的需求會被放大而且這個放大並不是基於這位女性這一個媳婦的需求而是來自於這個台灣的傳統的觀念更多的老一輩的壓力會因為這個樣子施加在這一個已經結婚的女性的身上"},{"start":4315.715,"end":4342.014,"text":"这件事情是很容易被忽略的所以简单来讲我们光是要捍卫经济的弱势的女性不要进入这样的一个产业已经讲了那么多很多人都还听不懂强势要推这样的一个制度但很多现在在看直播的观众你一定要再去想一下这一个制度的压力绝对就不是只有在弱势女性身上它会是在全体的女性身上"},{"start":4342.834,"end":4371.403,"text":"所以如果今天呢作為一個結婚的一個女性結果因為社會傳統的壓力或者來自於她的公婆的壓力變成她被逼迫一定要去走這個代孕制度的時候請問該怎麼辦她要怎麼拒絕她要說我沒錢嗎我們的髮條還故意把它設計成不要進入到市場不是嗎所以如果按照這個樣子的話那個壓力會有多大那個需求會變得有多大這是一個很大的問題"},{"start":4372.668,"end":4397.301,"text":"所以拜託就是大家在這一邊一定要冷靜的思考我們在講女性的身體自主權自主權生與不生這都是自主權你今天的自主權是一種自由但這個自由不能夠建立在別人的博學之上這個自由不能夠去放大台灣的傳統壓力這個自由不能夠建立在父權制度之上"},{"start":4398.081,"end":4411.206,"text":"所以拜託大家要記得這一件事情今天不管今天是原本的這一個行政院的這一個版本他強調的是本人的身體自主就是有跟沒有他沒有壓力的外溢但代孕完全不同"},{"start":4412.133,"end":4432.888,"text":"代孕今天的制度的建立它所得壓力的外溢是極大的所以你會把兩個完全不同的制度放在同一個法裡面討論這個在說這個在法制上完全不合理嘛所以今天呢如果真的要討論為什麼要程序發言講這個就是我建議應該還是以未婚跟"},{"start":4433.709,"end":4462.543,"text":"女同志這一個部分為優先這個部分比較有共識這個也沒有太大的一個壓力外溢的效應它的制度也不會造成我剛剛講的傳統概念的這個放大但是我們看到的我剛剛看到有些委員提到少子化台灣的少子化很大的一個原因在於婚姻的壓力這是中研院鄭彥新研究員做出來的研究非常著名的一個研究那我們今天我剛剛講的那個代孕制度的推行請問會是增加那一個婚姻的壓力還是減低那個婚姻的壓力"},{"start":4463.143,"end":4488.596,"text":"它是增加 它不是減低所以這是完全不同的制度結果完全不同的制度要放在一起審的時候就很容易沒有共識那一旦沒有共識之後變成本來應該有共識的部分應該趕快推出去的沒有辦法推我們就會因為代孕這個制度去綁架我們剛剛講的重要的比如說我們真的針對女性的身體自主權的不管是未婚的 不管是女同志的"},{"start":4489.376,"end":4504.375,"text":"所以在這邊我還是強烈的建議就是是否能夠把代孕脫鉤處理能夠把代孕不管是用專法或者說之後再討論先讓有共識的先行讓這個制度能夠趕快走下去"},{"start":4504.855,"end":4524.992,"text":"然後待遇呢 我覺得不只是要想一下而已西方的經驗已經告訴我們待遇有多少的問題絕對不要忘記在台灣所謂的這種傳統觀念之下待遇一旦被放大之後這個對台灣是一個完全沒有辦法再走回頭路的事好 那我簡單發言到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝沈委員接下來請吳佩奕委員"},{"start":4534.264,"end":4557.38,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天不管是在現場的立法委員還是在線上有很多的年輕朋友正在收看直播大家都很關心立法院人工生殖法的修法為什麼因為很多的單身女性如同我自己很多的女同志朋友大家都在等待"},{"start":4558.601,"end":4583.783,"text":"有沒有可能因為這一個修法的通過能夠去解除他們生命當中暫時遇到的困境或者是未來的期許但是也有更多人的擔憂是我們台灣真的要通過代理育母合法化的法律嗎我們台灣真的要通過代理育母合法化的法律嗎我知道強力主張的幾位委員"},{"start":4584.804,"end":4600.165,"text":"有幾位是不分區的委員這個國民黨跟民眾黨我不知道你們有沒有走到基層跟你的鄰居有沒有走到菜市場跟我們的附近的民眾大家好好面對面的討論過這個議題"},{"start":4603.769,"end":4622.561,"text":"但是今天在衛福部給我們報告裡面我們有看到這身為每一位立委應該都要知道的資訊針對人工生殖還有代理孕母的這個議題已經召開了兩次公聽還有超過30次的專家會議已收集到的600多則意見裡面"},{"start":4624.002,"end":4648.121,"text":"有八成是反對代理孕母的有八成是反對代理孕母這個是我剛剛講的這個專家會議公聽會裡面的資訊那我自己的服務處跟我自己的辦公室在這段時間以來我是每天都收到民眾來拜託我們在立法院裡面一定要堅決的反對代理孕母倉促通過修法"},{"start":4649.002,"end":4663.255,"text":"我每天都收到民眾的委託所以雖然我不是外韓委員會整個人工生殖法的修法我自己有提案的版本事實上這一個也是我自己去年在競選立委的時候我寫在選舉公報上面的證件"},{"start":4664.196,"end":4686.261,"text":"所以人工升職我們非常的關切但是我們更加的擔憂代理育母在還有這麼多的疑慮之前公聽會上專家會議上面都有很多專家提出來的疑慮到今天都還沒有被回答沒有被解釋在今天主張要代理育母合法化的委員你們的提案版本裡面"},{"start":4687.401,"end":4706.144,"text":"草草的九條也完全沒有辦法去處理它在法律上面的疑慮在倫理上面的疑慮的時候要進入逐條討論嗎這是違反民主的我們之前看了這麼多的公聽會這些疑慮並沒有被回答我再次的請問"},{"start":4708.41,"end":4732.051,"text":"在現在提案版本國民黨民眾黨的委員提案版本裡面有關代理孕母的第二條請問代孕子女就是被生下來這個孩子他在法律上面的定義是什麼你們都沒有寫耶法律上面定義什麼你都沒有寫那未來這個親權親子關係發生法律異議的時候誰來負責"},{"start":4733.615,"end":4743.748,"text":"你為這個孩子負責嗎你為這個家庭負責嗎這是立法委員可以做這麼不負責任的事情嗎然後呢有關於倫理權利上面的爭議你們寫的裡面18條之4"},{"start":4747.762,"end":4771.508,"text":"就是呢如果這個代孕者他在同一週期他有失敗他有沒有終止代孕的權利他有沒有終止代孕的權利好現在說有可是呢這個如果是委託的委託人家去代孕的夫妻他還是可以依照民法的規定裡面去跟這個代孕者而且應該是代孕母什麼叫代孕者是你們的工具嗎"},{"start":4772.668,"end":4792.079,"text":"他也是可以去請求損害賠償的所以到底你現在寫的法律裡面有沒有去保障待遇者的反悔權都沒有寫清楚耶那未來這個發生是在每一個家庭上面人家生命上面重大的問題可以這樣子不負責任的隨便寫立法嗎"},{"start":4793.803,"end":4819.983,"text":"所以我們剛剛一直在問的 你只有9條 代理育母可不可以討論可以討論 就我現在受到的民意我受到民意 多數的民意委託我們今天站在這裡一定要清楚的反對表明我們反對的立場可以討論 可是你不可以用滄滄的9條這麼多的問題 你連法條都不寫清楚就把它塞在我們今天要討論的人工生殖法的修法草案裡面"},{"start":4821.324,"end":4847.59,"text":"這樣子進入主條討論並沒有辦法達到理性的討論因為所有的爭議沒有人有辦法回答所以我等一下還是希望能不能拜託主席可能希望衛福部再來說明一下因為衛福部在今天給我們出面報告裡面事實上衛福部已經清楚的表明了在之前這麼多次的專家會議裡面對於代理育母還有很多的爭議上代理清跟討論"},{"start":4849.871,"end":4857.357,"text":"這爭議太大這是衛福部的文字考量部分內容受爲爭議太大上代更多溝通"},{"start":4858.618,"end":4883.069,"text":"目前將優先處理有共識部分讓上有爭議之代理育母部分脫鉤處理函請立法院審議人工生殖法修法草案這是衛福部提給我們的建議但是我們今天他手上的這個版本裡面還是有很多國民黨民眾黨委員提案版本裡面是有代理育母的啊"},{"start":4884.082,"end":4893.406,"text":"所以如果人家衛福部都清楚說了因為專家還有太多的這個爭議需要釐清了如果等一下我們就要去進入主條的話請問要怎麼討論難道要用舉手表決來去倉促的通過讓大女育母在台灣合法化嗎"},{"start":4905.816,"end":4923.25,"text":"我認為我們這樣沒有辦法向民眾交代民眾對我們提出這麼多的疑問現場無論立法委員無論官員都沒有辦法回答說明的時候就要讓這樣的草案匆匆的出了委員會我們每一個人都沒有辦法向台灣社會交代"},{"start":4924.761,"end":4941.004,"text":"所有人都要拜託主席請衛福部好好的說明在剛剛你們提到針對代理孕母八成以上的專家都反對台灣社會還有這麼多的爭議沒有共識的情況之下如果立法院 衛福委員會就要進入逐條討論討論這個條文了但我剛剛提到了第二條單孕子女法律定義是什麼當我們提出這個問題的時候沒有人可以回答的時候請問要怎麼逐條討論這個不叫理性討論"},{"start":4953.007,"end":4975.985,"text":"這叫蒙著眼睛隨便討論然後我要再次的去指出立法委員還有一個重要責任就是要利益迴避剛剛陳金輝委員你沒有資格你也沒有辦法去代表全台灣的婦產科醫師而台灣所有的婦產科醫師跟你不一樣的是他們不是立法委員"},{"start":4977.598,"end":4998.127,"text":"當你本身是這個產業的醫師從業人員本身又是立法委員的時候你提出跟這個產業利益相關的法律就有違了利益迴避原則這是我們在這裡所請教的這是我們在這裡請教的請問提案立委不需要遵守利益迴避原則嗎我們剛剛並沒有得到說明"},{"start":5002.751,"end":5029.521,"text":"所以針對這兩個問題我要再次的拜託主席我希望衛福部可以給我們你們的意見 謝謝好 謝謝來 接下來請煥雲委員煥雲委員要程序發言的時候我先講一下跟各位再表示一下好不好衛環委員會在八樓水很難過啦聽懂就知道 好 謝謝來 請發言"},{"start":5031.823,"end":5033.558,"text":"主席剛的意思是什麼意思"},{"start":5035.198,"end":5062.952,"text":"未還委會在八樓啦誰要淹過的機會不大啦好不好 謝謝好 請說因為剛剛幾位立委都有講到利益迴避嘛我啟醒大家看一下立法委員行為法第五章利益之迴避第十九條跟到第二十二條第十九條是說本章所稱之利益細指立法委員行使職權不當增加其本人或其關係人金錢物品或其他財產上之價值"},{"start":5063.993,"end":5086.123,"text":"第20條利益迴避原則立法委員行使職權所牽涉或辦理之事務因其作為獲取前條所規定之利益者應行迴避第22條立法委員行使職權就有利益迴避情勢之意案應迴避審議及表決那我想這件事情就是應該是大家要自律"},{"start":5088.624,"end":5112.156,"text":"剛剛其實很多人都已經從不管是國際的最新的報告或者是法條的問題題我想補充的事情是現在陳昭志委員不在請大家告訴陳昭志委員不要再拿當年賴立委還有蕭立委連署的法案來說賴總統支持代理運模"},{"start":5113.237,"end":5142.515,"text":"代理孕母過去這十年改變非常的大根據聯合國剛剛很多委員講到的報告歐洲已經有越來越多的國家從開放變成全面禁止連亞洲曾經是代孕大國的印度也開始禁止商業代孕只限所謂的利他型的代孕然後還有剛剛好幾位委員都提到的聯合國大會去年的報告關於暴力侵害婦女兒童"},{"start":5142.975,"end":5159.593,"text":"及其原因和後果的一個大會中的一個報告就是已經談到代孕潛在的會造來的很多的傷害然後對婦女地位的影響所以行政院版就是賴總統支持的版本"},{"start":5160.234,"end":5175.92,"text":"就是代孕脫鉤就是優先處理最有共識的單身女性跟女同志配偶所以請陳昭志委員也請大家告訴他不要再拿當年的部分來說賴總統支持什麼賴總統就是支持"},{"start":5177.993,"end":5193.132,"text":"現階段我們絕對是有共識先行單身女性跟女同志配偶可以有子宮的單身女性跟女同志配偶使用人工協助升職另外民眾黨版的 剛剛大家已經講到"},{"start":5195.855,"end":5217.811,"text":"區區9條而且沒有經過性別影響評估據我的瞭解行政院版有在行政院的性別平等委員會中經過詳細的討論民眾版的不僅沒有經過性別影響評估而且可能會風險失控那以下呢我還是要花一些時間把我們民間團體看到的民眾黨版的"},{"start":5218.151,"end":5237.973,"text":"十一大問題跟漏洞跟大家報告第一個民眾黨版的條文十八之一委託者資格規範不足恐淪為代孕專程回國制度民眾黨版未要求台灣在在台灣有一定的居住天數或戶籍連結只要符合法定身份"},{"start":5238.413,"end":5255.524,"text":"就可以啟動代孕程序實質的風險是台灣有可能會被當作代孕使用地委託者平時不在台灣生活僅為代孕的流程短期回國最後的法律責任後續照顧社會成本卻是台灣承擔這是第一個風險"},{"start":5256.425,"end":5283.818,"text":"第二個民眾黨版代孕者年齡未設上限與其他風險條件脫節制度明顯失衡他只有設定到例如具備生產經驗等顯示立法已經意識到懷孕跟生產本身具有高度風險但是在年齡方面只有設具有中華民國國籍且有戶籍這成年女性的限制會使得就是只要符合這樣的限制成年生產經驗"},{"start":5285.018,"end":5310.818,"text":"事實上他沒有考慮到高風險的代孕其實在情感上跟身體上帶來的壓力第三有生產經驗規定不足以確保風險梗控就是民眾黨版第十八支二條提到僅要求代孕者有生產經驗但沒有區分是怎麼樣的生產經驗譬如說曾發生孕期重大併發症或者是大出血"},{"start":5311.418,"end":5326.085,"text":"雖然他是有生產經驗但是其再次懷孕的風險非常的高應該要加以區分並要求其他的條件第四保險規範看似存在但缺乏可執行性所以"},{"start":5326.405,"end":5349.341,"text":"除了建議法條他應該要落實對代孕者的權益保障手段更應該要明定風險的管控所以他這個部分剛剛提到的就算要做到保障也完全沒有第五 費用沒有涉細目與上限引發市場競爭風險民眾擋板的費用完全開放可能導致代孕條件被金錢競價"},{"start":5350.862,"end":5370.39,"text":"第六 居住機構規範空洞責任可能轉嫁給代孕者這個部分我就不講了第七 他胚胎的植入也沒有設上限反而低於一般人工生殖的標準第八 也是非常多婦女團體憂慮的他沒有禁止近親代孕"},{"start":5371.03,"end":5392.547,"text":"恐導致家庭內的壓迫由於在亞洲的社會中包含台灣家庭成員的關係不僅是個人選擇也會伴隨長輩期待 孝道責任性別的權利關係那民眾黨版沒有規範事實上也可能會讓女性的家庭成員被推入無法拒絕的處境"},{"start":5394.042,"end":5412.06,"text":"第九 他定型化契約缺乏不應記載事項代孕者很容易在權力不對等下讓步第十 他整部條文不僅流程順序不明而且沒有明定律師角色法律風險無人把關最後很嚴重的事情是"},{"start":5413.141,"end":5441.653,"text":"所有國際上最擔心的就是代孕者跟孩子的權益完全在這裡面沒有規範終止委任之後的後果如果委託者在懷孕的過程中終止委任那最後代孕者是不是要自行承擔後續的風險那子女的侵權歸屬跟照顧責任事實上丹麥就因為他們沒有辦法處理這樣的一個兒童權益決定不要開放代孕"},{"start":5442.313,"end":5465.601,"text":"那我想除了講民眾黨版之外我最後也要補充剛剛很多人講到的聯合國的提高婦女地位的報告它裡面所講的原因跟後果它最後可能造成的後果至少有三大項第一個性別歧視那這樣子的觀念會被強化還有女性身體會被商品化第二個"},{"start":5466.221,"end":5495.921,"text":"就是她會增加更多的需求使得她的一個不利的產業擴大第三個她會邊緣化跟脆弱化更多的女性那我想這是一個她會帶來的影響在我們沒有辦法去處理這樣帶來的影響之前那再次重申我們非常多的民進黨立委希望今天我們優先處理有共識的單身女性跟女同志"},{"start":5496.321,"end":5519.569,"text":"配偶那如果真的要討論代孕的話請拿出專法來那我想那個時候整個社會才能夠嚴肅面對我們是不是能夠處理聯合國這邊所講的婦女權益被弱化被邊緣化被商業化的很多的問題還有最重要的就是孕母跟兒童權益的保障現在是完全付之缺乳謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":5524.294,"end":5551.351,"text":"還有林玥琴委員要來做程序發言 請還有誰嗎 黃西彎委員 陳培宇委員 謝謝這個就可以證明本委員會是一個讓各位都可以衝發言的一個好的委員會歷史以來各位都非常清楚所以大家要秉持這樣的原則我們才可以把法律案審得更好更真完備 請各位就"},{"start":5552.443,"end":5577.735,"text":"稍微安心一下謝謝大家來請 不好意思也是謝謝昭緯從頭開始你就一直說讓我們好好的談然後能夠等一下要實質去做審查那當然這次人工生殖法的修法我的版本事實上是去主張的是也就是未婚或者是目前沒婚姻關係的女性事實上"},{"start":5579.135,"end":5595.104,"text":"她可以透過這樣子人工生殖法來獲得她的下一代為什麼會當初有提這樣的一個版本第一個因為許多女性她們願意去承擔她自己孕產的風險而且不侵害到任何的第三人"},{"start":5595.684,"end":5623.756,"text":"所以呢對他人事實上是沒有權力上的侵害也是為了回應對女性身體的自主權生育選擇的尊重所以人工生殖法不會以一個異性婚姻為唯一的門檻而應該納入女同志配偶單身女性那當然很多人大概就會去問說那這樣子你在意的兒童權利會不會受到影響畢竟孩子一出生可能就面對到的事實上是他是單親那國外呢在"},{"start":5624.676,"end":5642.146,"text":"英國劍橋大學一個研究中心他們整個在2016年 2021年都先後發表了針對於人工生殖的單親母親創建的家庭的二階段的研究都透過捐贈者受孕的單親母親"},{"start":5643.146,"end":5659.431,"text":"的家庭跟雙性家庭去做比較結果研究發現這兩種家庭類型的養育水準幾乎相同孩子的情緒跟行為問題也沒有差異表明說沒有父親的存在的單親母親的本身也不會對孩子有負面的影響"},{"start":5660.091,"end":5685.662,"text":"所以我的版本為什麼提出來當然也提出來是希望孩子的知情權那我強烈的反對代孕再入法剛剛陳金輝委員講說因為少子化難道少子化我們就可以剝削另外一群人那個叫做經濟弱勢的女性嗎難道少子化我們因為國家要更多孩子的時候讓一個女性被剝削嗎"},{"start":5687.199,"end":5716.759,"text":"我覺得這不太妥適因為剛剛我相信去年7月14號聯合國就有出了一個特別報告我相信剛剛前面很多委員就提到了他說代孕背景下的婦女常面對到幾類暴力第一個是經濟暴力大多數的代孕的母親都來自低收入家庭那獲得的報酬僅佔總費用的10%到27.5%都讓中間人的手中拿走了"},{"start":5717.719,"end":5736.915,"text":"所以如果發生流產或未遵守嚴苛的合同條款的話他們可能會被拒絕支付酬勞第二個還有一個人倫上的問題過去台灣不是沒有發生過過去在台灣妹妹幫姊姊姊夫代孕就生出來"},{"start":5737.715,"end":5759.122,"text":"孩子事實上是特殊需求的孩子結果姊姊姊夫不認帳一方覺得是你受精卵有問題一方覺得是你子宮有問題可是從頭到尾都是我的話那沒有什麼任何爭議可是這樣的爭議的時候到時候要怎麼去解決透過官司嗎那最後呢孩子的權益到底在哪裡"},{"start":5760.188,"end":5775.202,"text":"那有沒有去保障到孩子的權益甚至這樣子的一個人倫壓力會不會讓一個女性在她家庭當中她受迫於她的家庭就要為她的家人來做代孕這我們也認為"},{"start":5776.322,"end":5800.411,"text":"對女性事實上也是一種暴力甚至在後續他還會產生心理上的一個暴力存在也就是他在孕期跟產後罹患憂鬱症焦慮症或創傷症候群的時候那造成他心理的傷害那誰誰能夠去讓他反正父母把孩子抱走了那這個"},{"start":5802.165,"end":5811.599,"text":"代孕者他可能要承受後期的整個生活上的一個改變那誰來讓他誰幫他負擔甚至"},{"start":5813.643,"end":5832.13,"text":"我想很多女性主義者大概也都會談的我也認為女性的身體怎麼可以被商品化跟物化把女性的生殖功能轉化為可購買的服務這事實上是貶低婦女的一個價值所在那我更為關注的應該就是"},{"start":5833.61,"end":5859.224,"text":"我們的兒童的最佳利益今天談的是少數的人的一個權益的時候有沒有看到公共利益在哪邊我們的招資委員提出這個不是不能討論可是是不是應該脫鉤好好的去討論不是用九條來解決這個問題那孩子的最佳利益有沒有去考量所以聯合國這個報告也提出來"},{"start":5860.425,"end":5887.961,"text":"代孕不僅僅影響婦女對兒童特別是女童會造成一個負面的後果也就是身份認同跟知情權透過代孕出生的孩子可能會面臨到長期的身份認同的一個鬥爭而且難以獲取遺傳疾病的一個家族的一個資訊而且另外一個我們更會擔心的是有沒有買賣兒童的一個犯罪嫌疑畢竟商業代孕在本質上就是將兒童"},{"start":5889.509,"end":5908.978,"text":"轉交給他人以換取報酬這個法律上等同於是買賣另外一個就是法律上的不確定性如果親子關係沒有辦法得到承認的時候孩子可能會陷入到一個法律上不確定性的一個狀態甚至"},{"start":5909.798,"end":5930.215,"text":"更讓人家更為憂心的就是如果孩子就像我剛剛提的台灣的那樣案例如果孩子有先天殘疾的話或不符合期待可能會面臨到拖養受委託的父母的遺棄我過去就在做收出養工作我感佩的是收出養的家庭沒有因為血緣關係一定要自己的小孩"},{"start":5935.41,"end":5963.769,"text":"他來到了收養機構然後同樣對不是他有血緣的關係付出愛付出真心所以如果今天要做代孕的時候我們以前過去在收出養都有不斷不斷的評估確定收養父母的狀態當商業化的時候在做代孕的時候有沒有有這樣子的一個機制這都是沒有辦法沒有在這邊充分討論所以我認為衛福部應該要去做影響評估報告"},{"start":5966.291,"end":5974.576,"text":"而且國際已經也提出來了他認為應該要全面的去廢除代孕"},{"start":5975.649,"end":6003.523,"text":"以取消一切形式的代孕行為是最終目標並且要努力通過一項具有法律約束力的國際文書來禁止代孕人家都已經提出來這麼嚴重的一個警告希望不要來進行代孕台灣事實上是非常主張人權我們怎麼會是在人權在走倒退另外一個我要提醒我們的藍白的立委在場的立委"},{"start":6004.483,"end":6020.124,"text":"昨天我們生權法只有討論了八條從早上審到下午五點充分的討論 好好的討論因為我們都知道生權法關係到身心障礙的權益那在場的立委我想"},{"start":6020.925,"end":6039.457,"text":"我們的廖昭偉應該也昨天也在場我們如果口口聲聲講說每一個人的權利很重要的時候尤其是弱勢的時候我們怎麼可以去剝削經濟弱勢的婦女我們這何以去不看重我們的兒童權益每次在任何兒少的場子"},{"start":6041.556,"end":6068.385,"text":"我講的兒童權益可是我想難得立委你們也在場的時候常常也把兒童權益放在最前來看的時候為什麼在討論這部法的時候你沒有把兒童權益放在至高五上來看待這件事情甚至兒托法我們總共討論討論了七個整天到現在還沒有討論完所以我非常支持剛才趙薇講到是我們今天法一定要像剛剛前面這幾部法好好的談實質的審謝謝"},{"start":6072.759,"end":6076.022,"text":"好 謝謝 那熊委員 這個陳秉穎說好 對不起 那請黃熊委員"},{"start":6086.944,"end":6114.116,"text":"謝謝主席那其實從之前一直在提這個人工生殖法的時候那關於代理孕母其實我們在地方都聽到很多的聲音大家會覺得說大家有共識的部分可以先過那這個有關代理孕母的這個部分其實在基層會有很多反對的聲音因為不是利用自己的子宮是用別人的子宮生下來的小孩"},{"start":6114.716,"end":6136.165,"text":"那另外就是說我們今天也聽到很多這個我們朋友還有這個基層希望就是說這個代理孕母生下來的孩子如果萬一萬一如果這個代理孕母因為身體產生變化因為要生一個小孩自己本身的這個身體賀蒙一定會有很大的變化"},{"start":6137.205,"end":6151.878,"text":"那如果他已經沒辦法再承受這樣的一個變化想要終止這個終止這樣的一個懷孕那後續的這個影響是不是有保障到這個代理孕母我覺得說今天"},{"start":6154.819,"end":6178.526,"text":"這個討論這個人工生殖法有關代理孕母的部分既然有這麼多大家有不同的意見而且沒有共識我們希望也要跟社會溝通萬一如果這樣倉促上路倉促上路其實會引起很多的地方的人士會影響很多人也會造成很多的一個反彈那另外我聽到就是說"},{"start":6181.767,"end":6192.773,"text":"除了一个就是代理孕母如果他不想再这个怀孕想要终止怀孕会碰到这样的一个问题那另外如果说这个孩子生下来是有问题的话"},{"start":6193.84,"end":6219.337,"text":"那原本這個拜託人家就是代孕的或者代理孕母或者是這個原本拜託的這個不想要接受這個孩子的話那這個孩子要怎麼辦所以我覺得說其實會有很多的問題需要跟社會上溝通那這個法條上面也沒有寫得很清楚我覺得這個會變成一個很大的問題"},{"start":6220.498,"end":6240.557,"text":"另外我要再講一個除了今天這個人工生殖法的一個修法那這個在前年我們通過有關這個80歲免巴士量表那時候因為大家也很這個在我們衛款委員會也經過一些討論那也這樣子上路之後結果最近在地方聽到"},{"start":6241.858,"end":6262.534,"text":"就是說會衝擊到很多的這個造福員的工作所以我覺得說一個法案要通過應該是要充分的討論而且要跟社會溝通那如果今天你不充分的討論也不跟社會溝通那未來倉促上路之後發生的這個問題"},{"start":6263.855,"end":6278.706,"text":"也這個變成說中央政府要來扛那也會受害的是我們一般的百姓所以我看到今天的這個人工生殖法有關代理孕母有這麼多的疑義那我們希望就是說透過今天"},{"start":6279.646,"end":6302.5,"text":"大家可以好好的討論好好的溝通不要沖不要倉促的一個上路那倉促的上路不只是影響到我們的這個婦女朋友也會影響到未來這個代孕生下來這個孩子的一個權益所以我們希望這個召委還有所有的這個委員大家要好好的思考要跟社會溝通那也要好好的討論以上"},{"start":6307.961,"end":6309.99,"text":"接下來請陳培宇委員來做花言"},{"start":6319.52,"end":6343.436,"text":"好謝謝主席讓大家今天可以在程序上好好的發言那其實不管是從之前有沒有質詢過有辦過公聽會或者是其實許多民團在最近這幾年都已經發出非常多呼籲的聲音我想相關的論述我就不再說明但是身為立法委員我們絕對要對自己的提案負責任對自己的提案有信心你提案可以跟助理討論可以跟民間團體討論"},{"start":6344.697,"end":6366.935,"text":"可以跟學者專家討論我今天看到委員會彙整出來的版本不管是國民黨團民眾黨團跟民進黨團還有行政院的版本其實大家相差的點就是在於代孕這件事情所以我們今天才要繼續程序發言所以就代孕的議題我就想要直接點名再未還所有的在野黨委員"},{"start":6367.856,"end":6397.021,"text":"廖偉祥你支持嗎你的選區如果有相關民眾他跟你陳情他因為你們在立法院不管是誰要通過代孕的議題他因此而受到剝削請問廖委員你如何處理相關陳情你如何協助弱勢的女子的子宮受到了買賣受到了剝削盧憲毅委員你支持嗎我不知道你自己有沒有提版本我不知道你有沒有研究過國民黨團的版本民眾黨團的版本甚至是陳金輝委員完全沒有利益迴避的版本"},{"start":6397.381,"end":6426.583,"text":"而就是國民黨你們在對人民的子宮做的事情突權級委員你認同嗎從區議員選出來在您的選區有非常多經濟弱勢的家庭我不知道在相關的家庭文化當中在還沒有辦法來得及翻轉的社會結構當中在您還沒有看見的社會角落當中有沒有相關弱勢的女性的子宮就因此在陳金輝陳昭芝還有國民黨團硬是要強行通過碾壓表決的代孕版本當中將會受到迫害"},{"start":6427.223,"end":6456.443,"text":"請你去看一看 聽一聽你們的選區民眾要怎麼告訴你他們看待代孕的看法王玉銘委員標榜自己來自於民間團體捍衛兒少的權利 捍衛婦女的權利但是到目前為止我沒有聽到他對相關論述的發言我也沒有聽到他的立場我不知道在代孕這件事情他要如何跟國際上對於強害兒童人權的事情站在一起他根本就是一個加害者他根本就是一個幫兇不要再告訴我他是一個捍衛兒權的立法委員"},{"start":6456.983,"end":6459.204,"text":"再來陳昭芝就是這一次一直說她要強行通過她一定要通過說她就是為了這件事情來當立法委員的我不知道這句話有沒有正當性我也不知道民眾黨團要違背自己的兩年條款的誓言背叛自己的支持者"},{"start":6472.668,"end":6499.723,"text":"就只是為了陳昭之一個人想要通過代理育母法案是不是有其公平合理性我也完全不知道而當陳昭之口口聲聲在公開的場合說他只有領養他感到非常的遺憾他到現在都很遺憾沒有自己的小孩的時候我就要問站在長期維護兒童權利的我的立場請問被你領養的小孩就算他現在長大成人了他從小到大聽你講這樣的話他難道沒有身心壓力嗎他難道不會覺得他只是你的替代品嗎"},{"start":6500.723,"end":6509.321,"text":"而陳昭之當你講這樣的話的時候你告訴我你是跟人權站在一起的你是維護兒少人權你是維護婦女人權我要說根本就是狗屁不同"},{"start":6510.495,"end":6538.721,"text":"根本就是不合邏輯根本就是想要繼續壓迫女性的人權接下來陳金輝委員我剛說了不管是您或是你的親戚你的家人甚至你的夫婿有沒有投資相關的公司有沒有投資相關的機構你要不要利益迴避你要不要公開說明你今天如果還敢出席這個法案主條審查你甚至還有相關版本那我就說請你站出來告訴你們國民黨的支持者我陳金輝就是一個不做利益迴避的"},{"start":6539.901,"end":6556.704,"text":"糟糕立委而我要通過代孕對我自己的來說利益最大照顧的還有誰的利益還有有錢出得起有能力出得起這些錢的女性還有他們的家人而誰是受害者就是我說的很清楚貧窮女人就是受害者"},{"start":6557.265,"end":6575.892,"text":"再來邱政軍委員蘇清泉委員也請你們告訴你們的選區的選民你為什麼要在立法院通過代孕版本你為什麼要跟這些委員站在一起只要你們每個人可以說得出來我相信你們的選民也都很願意跟你對話過去這幾年在立法院有非常多"},{"start":6576.892,"end":6593.108,"text":"困難的議題通常進步派跟保守派會有強烈的差別但很可貴的是在這個議題上進步派跟保守派難能一致可貴的有共同的立場大家對於代孕所可能引發的法律問題倫理問題人權問題兒權問題都感到擔心"},{"start":6598.553,"end":6619.103,"text":"昨天陳昭芝委員甚至在自己的槌上針對我還有黃婕委員非常多委員的發言一一回應我要說一你完全沒有回應到重點二你還是在避重就輕你還是只是想要照顧到你自己的利益請大家想一想代孕是什麼樣的人需要代孕一沒有子宮的人"},{"start":6619.403,"end":6645.019,"text":"二子宮生病沒有辦法自行懷孕的人還有第三在同志婚配相關專法成立之後男同志配偶可能也可以用代孕生下自己的小孩而在這些不同群族的樣態上都沒有進行細緻的討論就想要在先現在相關的版本裡面用只有十幾條的方法想要硬行通過我不知道後續有多少配套是衛福部你們要出來擦屁股"},{"start":6646.44,"end":6669.346,"text":"我更不知道還有多少配套是相關人權單位出來呼籲的你們不願意聽甚至不要忘了還有教育部的相關配套而如果台灣的行政人員相關公務人員的力氣要花在幫你們這些爛立委擦屁股那我要說公務員待不下去你們要負一半以上的責任我要再說一次我從來沒有反對我們可以認真討論代孕"},{"start":6671.246,"end":6695.944,"text":"我要請各位委員不要著急我們第十一屆到目前為止只有到第四個會期不要忘了我們還有四個會期我們還有兩年的時間假設陳昭之你真的可以繼續留下來你要違背你們民眾黨的誓言你要繼續留在立法院陳昭之委員你還有兩年的時間你還有四個會期可以開啟你對代孕專法的討論"},{"start":6697.472,"end":6718.889,"text":"不然我就問你在過去這兩年之中陳昭芝你開過幾場專家學者會議你開過多少情誼會議你有沒有真的認真走進民間走進婦團走進人權團體走進可能成為代理孕母的這些女人身邊聽一聽她們的聲音還是你就只會坐在辦公室裡面哀哀叫"},{"start":6719.73,"end":6746.122,"text":"叫著你要這個你要這個你要這個但實質上你做了什麼努力我想要請你告訴我們所以請大家不要著急代孕專法不是不能討論民進黨團也已經很多委員說過代孕這件事情他必須要細細的討論相關的專章相關的專法相關的細節相關的配套還有這麼多元的樣態難道不值得大家再花四個會期好好討論嗎"},{"start":6747.262,"end":6763.208,"text":"所有的人權 所有貧窮女人的子宮權難道不值得大家再花時間討論嗎所以我想要呼籲所有在野黨委員我剛剛已經一一點黎明了請你們先回去跟你們自己的選民交代你為什麼要通過代孕"},{"start":6763.948,"end":6789.216,"text":"的版本你為什麼要讓貧窮的女人的職工變成你們政治交換的工具我再一次點名廖偉祥盧憲一圖全集王育敏陳昭芝陳金輝邱振軍蘇清泉以上謝謝好謝謝接下來請張雅玲委員來做程序發言那張委員程序發言完之後我們要休息十分鐘可以謝謝"},{"start":6792.274,"end":6794.199,"text":"如果要繼續歡迎 請休息後趕緊來報導好 謝謝大家"},{"start":6798.237,"end":6826.96,"text":"好謝謝主席那我想我重申的兩個很重要的立場就是說我們一直在跟孩子講身體自主權身體自主權的概念是什麼是我的身體只有我決定別人可不可以來觸碰我那理所當然的身體自主權等到他18歲的時候他應該也還有享有這樣子的權利不分他的出生不分他是不是貧窮貴賤他到18歲都應該可以來決定他自己的子宮是只能夠來得養育自己的要決定要養育自己的小孩"},{"start":6828.228,"end":6845.094,"text":"所以還有另外一個重點是說我們在講兒少最佳利益我們在講兒童在整個過程之中在代孕的過程之中他變成是一個商品他今天有沒有身體的狀況在代孕的過程中發生了什麼樣子的問題他會不會因此"},{"start":6845.354,"end":6867.016,"text":"而被遺棄或是因此而遭受到什麼樣子的選擇那我覺得這個就是要回到兒少最佳利益的一個討論那所以呢我要強調一個東西是代孕從來不是只是出界子宮懷孕不是一個零風險的服務在孕期的過程之中他可能會孕到妊娠的問題糖尿病的問題等等有太多太多的問題了"},{"start":6868.197,"end":6881.483,"text":"所以我們不是說肚子戒了10個月就能夠下班它牽涉到的是一個人的身心工作家庭生活的全面的付出還有剛剛講的可能失能的或者是死亡的風險"},{"start":6883.544,"end":6900.861,"text":"國家在立法的時候不能只有看一個需求去把另一端承擔的風險當成是背景轉嫁給其他人來承擔那特別是說懷孕是一個24小時是一個長時間10個月的高強度付出所以它也不應該是變成是一個契約邏輯"},{"start":6902.583,"end":6916.984,"text":"因為現實上可能會出現誰有權力來決定要不要剖腹要不要檢胎要不要做侵入性的檢查隱私這些都會讓代理孕母變成一個被管理的人被監控的對象那"},{"start":6917.825,"end":6945.9,"text":"特別是說我想我們現在呢一直以來我們就像剛剛培語委員說的我們其實都可以好好討論我們真的還有時間可以來把這個爭議上面來去做更清楚的釐清我們也可以開更多的會議來去了解特別是對於兒童的權利因為兒童的權利核心還是要再強調一次他是以兒少最佳利益為原則這是世界上196個國家都同意的一個概念也都在執行的概念那"},{"start":6946.92,"end":6972.328,"text":"如果沒有以委託方的期待為優先那如果說到時候出現爭議的時候到底這個孩子到底該怎麼辦誰來以他的利益為一個最終的考量呢那孩子之後長大之後他有沒有權利知道自己是怎麼來的有沒有權利知道自己的出生的相關的重要資訊這些都不是一句簽好的契約就能夠解決的這也是我們現在還沒有充分討論的部分"},{"start":6974.108,"end":6999.177,"text":"我想孩子需要的還是一個穩定安全可靠的可被照顧的關係以及法律的地位不是事後用錢來進行風險的相關的處理那此外呢我還是想要強調一個代理孕母其實往往背後往往是父權文化的壓力當傳宗接代血緣至上無後為大這些符號一再的去壓迫在女性的身上代孕的制度就只是"},{"start":6999.637,"end":7012.393,"text":"把傳統的概念用新的現代的方式重新包裝把女性重新變成是一個工具化變成是一個延續血脈的解決方式而不是一個擁有完整權力的個體"},{"start":7014.611,"end":7042.678,"text":"所以家庭權及生育權保障的是我能決定要不要生還有跟誰生不是 我一定要擁有一個有我基因的孩子更不是我可以使用第三者的身體來達成國家不能用權力的語言去合理化對另一個人身體自主與健康安全的侵害同時也不能用大人的願望跟期待去壓過孩子的最佳利益與基本權益"},{"start":7043.738,"end":7068.831,"text":"所以我想代孕在現在還是有很大的爭議那我覺得我們是可以優先來處理現在比較有共識的就是單身女性以及女同志的部分那我覺得這樣子才能夠去順利的去推進我們的人工生殖法也能夠真正去回應整個社會的一個期待 謝謝好 謝謝那我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":7117.944,"end":7120.673,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":7141.4,"end":7150.015,"text":"那是哪裡啊"},{"start":7184.56,"end":7187.581,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7202.908,"end":7202.928,"text":"謝謝你"},{"start":7233.006,"end":7233.026,"text":"嗯。"},{"start":7246.782,"end":7258.576,"text":"謝謝大家收看,下次見!"},{"start":7262.563,"end":7262.783,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7290.258,"end":7295.103,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7326.244,"end":7326.264,"text":"好"},{"start":7334.872,"end":7342.21,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7361.367,"end":7366.071,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7372.554,"end":7384.265,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7408.978,"end":7408.998,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":7429.206,"end":7429.346,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7450.559,"end":7471.897,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7480.874,"end":7485.603,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7498.616,"end":7500.117,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":7511.205,"end":7525.679,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7541.705,"end":7550.536,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7577.943,"end":7578.023,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7601.382,"end":7605.786,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7624.667,"end":7628.291,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7637.8,"end":7655.014,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7696.549,"end":7699.111,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7728.764,"end":7729.284,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7746.046,"end":7753.715,"text":"好 您好"},{"start":7775.022,"end":7775.042,"text":"好"},{"start":7814.509,"end":7814.929,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7850.63,"end":7853.572,"text":"那個好了好了"},{"start":7853.882,"end":7857.804,"text":"我們等一下宣讀以後 宣讀的時候因為有一些修正動議對"},{"start":7907.896,"end":7908.897,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7947.559,"end":7950.74,"text":"好我們休息時間已到我們繼續開會"},{"start":7955.236,"end":7967.227,"text":"那現在要請醫事人員 對不起有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在請醫事人員來宣讀提案條例內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":7987.642,"end":7995.664,"text":"我知道我是讓各位剛剛也程序完成如果各位要再請部長回應一下剛剛也有給國民黨委員發言"},{"start":8014.993,"end":8042.371,"text":"我尊重 各位請坐好不好我處理 好 謝謝因為程序委員當然程序的發言之後當然沒有說一定要要求行政機關再做回應啦所以我剛剛也是尊重看部長要不要 這就尊重他如果部長願意就請部長"},{"start":8049.863,"end":8069.094,"text":"好謝謝主席還有各位委員那麼剛剛幾位委員也特別提到對於這個少子女化的問題那麼人工生殖法修法的相關的影響那我也想也趁這個機會跟各位委員報告那麼以我們目前的這個最近的內政部的統計來講我們的已婚"},{"start":8071.855,"end":8097.383,"text":"已婚者的生育率其实是可以高达83到90%90%就是说还有婚姻状态的是90%那么已经有离婚者大概是83%所以这个对已婚者来讲他的生育率是很高那么但是呢相对而言这个未婚者没有婚姻关系者的这个子女的这个生育率就很低大概只有不到1%"},{"start":8098.943,"end":8127.071,"text":"那所以这一次呢在我们的这个立法过程当中呢就是考虑到对于这个透过这个人工生殖的医疗的协助让希望那么不需要那么受到这个以婚姻为基础下过去的这个人工生殖法的这个限制把它打开那么这个对于这个我们少子女的问题呢确实他应该也是有帮忙的"},{"start":8127.671,"end":8156.247,"text":"那么至于我们这整个立法的精神就是透过这个医疗技术的协助那么让这个女性能够遂行她的生育权那因此在中间有两个那么代理孕母这边会涉及到的就是刚刚委员也特别提到一位就是在一个就是属于这个五子宫的没有办法以现行的医疗技术来协助这个怀孕"},{"start":8156.707,"end":8183.535,"text":"那麼這個部分那麼就必須透過那麼移植技術或者是代理育母那當然現在移植技術還沒有辦法成功那麼只剩下代理育母一途但是呢代理育母那麼涉及到的議題就如同剛剛在各位委員的這個報告或者是在我們過去的專家討論或者是這個預告當中所"},{"start":8184.255,"end":8204.876,"text":"提到 收到的這個意見一樣那麼第一個呢當然就是對兒童的最佳利益風險的影響那第二個就是對於婦女剝削的影響商業化的爭議另外還有一個就是法律關係的衝突那麼以多數國家而言或者是我國也是如此"},{"start":8205.496,"end":8232.376,"text":"亲子关系的建立是建立在分娩者即为母亲这个一般的通念之下那么多数国家也是如此那么如果是代理育母那么就会打破这个以分娩关系建立的亲子关系而会变成是以契约安排而产生的亲子关系那么这个的法律冲突是大的"},{"start":8232.952,"end":8249.241,"text":"那麼何況一旦開放之後那麼又會有甚至有些國家是連限制跨境代理孕母都會限制因為有各國法律關係之間的衝突所以這個在法律衝突上是存在的"},{"start":8249.901,"end":8264.61,"text":"那麼至於也會有提到那麼以現在的這個男同志的這個可不可以透過代理育母那麼多數國家認為在男同志是屬於生理的極限"},{"start":8265.31,"end":8285.462,"text":"所以不是現在我們談的以醫療的技術可以協助遂行生育權所以這個都會被排除在這個人工生殖的對象裡頭所以我先從我們過去所收集到的這一些意見跟各國可能因為代理育母產生的爭議性問題"},{"start":8288.263,"end":8310.377,"text":"制度上呢那麼在沒有辦法難以充分保障到兒童最佳利益跟所謂婦女的健康跟這個倫理法律價值情形之下那麼建議脫鉤處理所以這以上的補充好謝謝部長的回應了那我們現在就來進行主條的"},{"start":8319.281,"end":8326.551,"text":"沒有啦沒有啦好啦他沒說好啦好啦OK那我們進行主條的宣讀那現在請議事連員來宣讀條文內容謝謝"},{"start":8330.285,"end":8344,"text":"人工生殖法修正草案行政院委員謝一鳳等17人委員陳金輝等20人委員黃潔等22人委員林益錦等19人委員范雲等16人委員林楚英等18人委員王玉敏等18人委員黃秀芳等18人臺灣民眾黨黨團委員林月琴等17人國民黨黨團委員洪森翰范雲等21人"},{"start":8349.926,"end":8375.359,"text":"委員吳珮毅等18人委員林淑芬等18人委員郭玉琴等16人委員張雅玲等21人委員陳培玉等18人委員鄭正琴等20人委員顏寬恆等16人提案及現行法條文對照表行政院提案第一條為健全人工生殖之發展保障人工生殖子女 瘦數配偶瘦數未婚女性及捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫理健康及經營家庭生活之權利特制定本法"},{"start":8375.959,"end":8400.138,"text":"委員謝依鳳等17人提案第一條為健全人工生殖之發展保障不孕夫妻代孕者人工生殖子女及捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫理及健康特制定本法委員陳金輝等20人提案第一條為健全人工生殖之發展保障瘦數者瘦數配偶人工生殖子女捐贈人及代孕者之權益維護國民之倫理及健康特制定本法"},{"start":8400.618,"end":8424.413,"text":"委員黃潔等22人提案第一條修正首三據為為保障國人生育權健全人工生殖之發展確保使用人工生殖者予以現行法同委員林怡菁等19人提案第一條為健全人工生殖之發展保障不孕者使用人工生殖者人工生殖子女與捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫理及健康特制定本法"},{"start":8425.173,"end":8452.217,"text":"委員陳佩玉等十八人提案第一條為健全人工生殖之發展保障瘦素配偶 瘦素未婚女性人工生殖子女與捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫理健康及經營家庭生活之權利特制定本法委員范雲等十六人委員黃秀芳等十八人委員吳佩儀等十八人委員郭玉琴等十六人提案第一條修正首二句為為健全人工生殖之發展保障使用人工生殖者予以現行法同"},{"start":8452.717,"end":8469.887,"text":"委員林楚英等18人提案第一條修正文字夫妻為配偶與先行法同委員王玉明等18人提案第一條為健全人工生殖之發展保障人工生殖子女代孕者 受贖者及捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫理及健康特制定本法"},{"start":8470.848,"end":8487.066,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第一條為健全人工生殖之發展保障人工生殖子女代孕者 瘦數者 瘦數配偶與捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫理及健康特制定本法委員林月琴等17人提案第一條為健全人工生殖之發展"},{"start":8487.446,"end":8510.131,"text":"保障不孕夫妻成立司法院是自第七四八號解釋施行法第二條規定關係之女性無婚姻關係女性人工生殖子女與捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫理及健康特制定本法國民黨黨團提案第一條修正倒數第三句為不孕夫妻及捐贈人之權益予以委員王玉明等十八人提案同"},{"start":8511.758,"end":8530.192,"text":"委員洪森漢 范雲等21人提案第一條為健全人工生殖之發展保障人工生殖使用者人工生殖子女與捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫以及健康特制定本法委員顏寬恒等16人提案修正第二句為保障接受人工生殖予以現行法同"},{"start":8530.973,"end":8550.422,"text":"委員黎淑芬等18人提案第一條修正第二句為保障接受人工生殖者予以現行法同委員張雅玲等21人提案第一條為健全人工生殖之發展保障不孕配偶人工生殖受贖者人工生殖子女與捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫理及健康特制定本法"},{"start":8550.982,"end":8579.307,"text":"行政院提案第二條委員稱胚瑜等18人提案第三條本法所稱主管機關在中央為衛生福利部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府行政院提案第三條本法用詞定義如下一人工生殖至利用生殖醫療以非性交織人工受孕胚胎植入及其相關方法達到受孕生育目的之技術二生殖細胞指精子或卵子三胚胎"},{"start":8579.747,"end":8601.449,"text":"指受精卵分裂位于八周者四 受数配偶指下列接受人工生殖者一 夫妻二 成立司法院释字第七四八号解释施行法第二条关系之女性双方当事人以下简称女同性双方五 受数未婚女性指接受人工生殖之无婚姻关系或无司法院释字第"},{"start":8604.032,"end":8630.45,"text":"748號解釋施行法第二條關係之女性6 女性受處者 只受處配偶女方或受處未婚女性7 捐贈人 只無償提供精子或卵子與受處配偶實施人工生殖者或無償提供精子與受處未婚女性實施人工生殖者8 無性生殖 只非經由精子及卵子之結合而利用單一體細胞培養產生後代之過程9 精卵護證"},{"start":8631.571,"end":8653.216,"text":"指二對瘦素配偶約定以一方瘦素配偶男方之精子與他方瘦素配偶女方之卵子結合使各方之女性瘦素者受胎之情形十 人工生殖機構指經中央主管機關許可實施人工生殖相關業務之醫療機構委員謝一鳳等十七人提案第二條修正序文第三集第五款如下"},{"start":8653.996,"end":8673.668,"text":"本法用詞逗號定義如下三 受贖夫妻只接受人工生殖之夫籍期五 捐贈人只無償提供精子或卵子與受贖夫妻或代孕者孕育生產胎兒者增列第八九十一款如下八 代孕者只與受贖夫妻約定接受其胚胎"},{"start":8674.088,"end":8692.17,"text":"植入子宮代為孕育及生產胎兒者9 代孕生殖植以人工生殖方式對代孕者施行孕育及生產胎兒之技術11 居間代孕服務機構只經主管機關許可得與受贖夫妻委託代孕者代孕前後提供居間協調"},{"start":8693.491,"end":8713.918,"text":"協助代孕契約簽訂及相關服務之財團法人或公益社團法人原第八款移至第十款予以先行法通委員陳金輝等二十人提案第二條修正第三款如下三 受訴者受訴配偶指接受人工生殖之單身者或具婚姻關係之配偶修正第五款文字夫妻為配偶"},{"start":8714.458,"end":8743.431,"text":"新增第八九十一款如下八 代孕者只與受贖者約定接受其胚胎植入子宮代為孕育及生產胎兒者九 代孕升職只以人工升職方式對代孕者施行孕育及生產胎兒之技術十一 居間代孕服務機構使經主管機關許可得與受贖者委託代孕者代孕前後提供居間協調協助代孕契約簽訂及相關服務之財團法人或公益社團法人"},{"start":8744.031,"end":8762.417,"text":"原第八款移至第十款欲現行法同違原黃街等二十二人提案第二條修正第三五七款及新增第九款如下三 受贖者受贖配偶只接受人工生殖者且受贖者或受贖配偶一方能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒者五 捐贈人"},{"start":8763.297,"end":8785.727,"text":"指無償提供精子或卵子與受術者或受術配偶孕育生產胎兒者七 精卵護證指二對受術配偶約定以一方精子及他方之卵子結合使各方受胎之情形九 凍卵經人工生殖機構取卵後以冷凍技術保存之卵子予以現行法同委員林一進等19人提案"},{"start":8787.452,"end":8803.466,"text":"第二條 修正第三款如下三 受訴者只能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒並接受人工生殖者或受訴配偶一方能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒並接受人工生殖者修正第七款文字夫妻為配偶欲先行法同"},{"start":8803.986,"end":8826.452,"text":"委員稱配育等18人提案第二條本法用詞定義如下一 生殖 人工生殖至利用生殖醫療以非性交織人工受孕胚胎植入及其他相關技術達到受孕生育目的之技術268款與院版第三條238款同345790款如下三 瘦數配偶"},{"start":8826.852,"end":8853.877,"text":"至接受人工生殖之已婚配偶且配偶之一方能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒者四 受贖未婚女性至接受人工生殖且無婚姻關係之女性五 女性受贖者至接受人工生殖手術之受贖配偶女方或受贖未婚女性七 捐贈人至無償提供精子或卵子與受贖配偶孕育生產胎兒者或無償提供精子與受贖未婚女性孕育生產胎兒者"},{"start":8854.477,"end":8870.725,"text":"九 精卵护证 指二对瘦素配偶约定以瘦素配偶男方之精子与他方瘦素配偶女方之卵子结合十 人工生殖机构 指经中央主管机关许可得施行人工生殖相关业务之医疗机构及公益法人"},{"start":8871.505,"end":8891.866,"text":"委員范雲等16人提案第二條修正第三款卻第六款如下三 受訴配偶只接受人工生殖之已婚配偶且配偶一方能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒者四 受訴者只能以子宮孕育生產胎兒接受人工生殖技術者五 胚胎只受精卵分裂位於八州者"},{"start":8892.426,"end":8907.733,"text":"六 捐贈人指無償提供精子或卵子與受贖者或受贖配偶孕育生產胎兒者第七款同現行款第六款修正第七款文字夫為受贖配偶並移至第八款原第八款移至第九款予以現行法同"},{"start":8908.473,"end":8925.679,"text":"委員林楚瑩等十八人提案第二條修正第三款如下三 授出配偶只接受人工生殖之配偶雙方且授出一方能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒者修正文字夫妻為配偶予以現行法同委員王玉敏等十八人提案第二條修正第三款第五款"},{"start":8926.099,"end":8943.44,"text":"及增列第九至十一款如下三 受贖者指接受人工生殖之單身者異性婚姻夫妻及同性永久結合關係五 捐贈人指無償提供精子或卵子與受贖夫妻或受其委託代孕以孕育生產"},{"start":8944.341,"end":8971.714,"text":"胎兒者及生產胎兒者 九 代孕者只與受贖夫妻約定接受其胚胎植入子宮代為孕育及生產胎兒者 十 代孕升職只以人工升職方式對代孕者施行孕育及生產胎兒之技術 十一居間代孕服務機構只經主管機關許可得與受贖夫妻委託代孕者代孕前後提供居間協調協助代孕契約簽訂及相關服務之財團"},{"start":8974.255,"end":8991.543,"text":"法人或公益社團法人委員黃秀芳等18人提案第二條增列第四款如下四 受贖者子雖無婚姻關係但能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒接受人工生殖者原第四款至第八款一至第五款至第九款予以現行法同"},{"start":8992.303,"end":9020.724,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條修正第三五七款如下三 受贖者受贖配偶只接受人工生殖協助之單身者或具永久結合關係之配偶五 捐贈人只無償提供精子或卵子與受贖者受贖配偶或代孕者孕育及生產胎兒者七 精卵互贈只二對受贖配偶約定以一方之精子及他方之卵子結合使各方受胎之情形新增第八款及第九款如下"},{"start":9021.184,"end":9046.983,"text":"八 代孕者只與受贖者或受贖配偶約定接受其胚胎植入子宮代為孕育及生產胎兒者九 代孕升職只以人工升職方式對代孕者施行孕育及生產胎兒之技術原第八款移至第十款新增第十一款如下十一 居間代孕服務機構只經主管機關許可得與受贖者或受贖配偶委託代孕者代孕前後提供居間協調"},{"start":9048.264,"end":9072.657,"text":"協助代孕契約簽訂及相關服務之財團法人或公益社團法人予以現行法同委員林月琴等17人提案第二條修正第三款及第五款如下三 受贖人 指接受人工生殖之人且能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒者五 捐贈人 指無償提供精子或卵子與受贖人孕育生產胎兒者予以現行法同"},{"start":9073.337,"end":9093.802,"text":"國民黨黨團提案第二條修正第三款如下三 受贖夫妻至接受人工生殖協助之夫及妻第五款及第十一款與委員王玉敏等十八人提案同第八款至第九款與委員王玉敏等十八人提案第九款至第十款同第十款同現行法第八款予以現行法同"},{"start":9094.562,"end":9115.738,"text":"委員洪森漢 范雲等21人提案第二條序文及第二款同線刑法修正第三款至第八款如下三 受訴人 至接受人工生殖且以其子宮孕育生產人工生殖子女者四 受訴人配偶 至與受訴人建立民法上婚姻關係或司法院士自第七四八號解釋施刑法第二條關係者"},{"start":9117.339,"end":9146.038,"text":"與受贖人依其他國家或地區之法律規定締結婚姻關係者一同五 受贖配偶雙方當事人指受贖人及其受贖人配偶六 胚胎指受精卵分裂位於八周者七 人工生殖子女指由受贖人以人工生殖方式所孕育生產者八 捐贈人指無償提供精子或卵子與受贖人孕育生產胎兒者第九款同現行法第六款修正第十款如下"},{"start":9147.972,"end":9173.832,"text":"十 精卵护证是二对瘦素配偶双方当事人约定以一方瘦素人配偶之精子及他方瘦素人之卵子结合使各队之瘦素人皆受胎之情形第十一款同现行法第八款修正第十二款如下十二 受委托评 受托评估机构只得受人工生殖机构委托对瘦素人及瘦素人配偶进行本法第七条检查及评估之机构"},{"start":9174.472,"end":9199.903,"text":"委員顏寬恆等16人提案第二條序文及第1至3款與現行法第1至3款同第4及第5款與委員范雲等16人提案第4及第5款同第6款如下6 捐贈人指無償提供生殖細胞與瘦素者實施人工生殖孕育生產胎兒者第7至第9款與現行法第6至第8款同委員吳佩儀等18人提案第二條第3款與委員黃潔等22人提案同"},{"start":9203.965,"end":9222.345,"text":"第五款與委員林依晴等十九人提案同第七款與委員范雲等十六人提案第八款相同予以現行法同委員林淑芬等十八人提案第二條修正第三款及新增第四款如下三 受訴配偶只接受人工生殖之夫及妻"},{"start":9223.106,"end":9248.8,"text":"或成立司法院實質第七四八號解釋施行法第二條關係之配偶且配偶一方能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒者是未婚瘦素女性至接受人工生殖且能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒之未婚女性原第四款至第八款一至第五款至第九款修正第六款如下六 捐贈人至無償提供精子或卵子與瘦素配偶或未婚瘦素女性孕育生產胎兒者"},{"start":9249.58,"end":9264.586,"text":"第八款同委員范雲等16人提案同予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等16人提案第二條修正第三五七款如下三 受訴者只接受人工生殖且能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒者五 捐贈人"},{"start":9265.066,"end":9291.954,"text":"指無償提供精子或卵子於受術者孕育生產胎兒者七 精卵互贈指二對受術配偶約定以一方之精子及他方之卵子結合使各方受胎之情形予以現行法同委員張雅玲等21人提案第二條修正第三款及增列第九款如下三 受術配偶指接受人工生殖之配偶且一方能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒者九 人工生殖受術者簡稱受術者"},{"start":9293.895,"end":9312.421,"text":"至接受人工生殖以子宮孕育生產人工生殖子女之人修正第七款文字夫妻為配偶予以現行法同行政院提案第四條以夫子精子植入七體內實施之人工生殖除第21條第三款及其違反之處罰規定外不適用本法之規定"},{"start":9314.727,"end":9341.445,"text":"委員黃婕等二十二人提案第五條以取出一方之金子植入另一方體內實施之配偶兼人工生殖除第十六條第三款及其違反之處罰規定外不適用本法之規定委員陳佩玉等十八人提案第五條以取出受訴配偶男方之金子植入受訴配偶女方體內實施之配偶兼人工生殖除第十六條第三款及其違反之處罰規定外不適用本法之規定"},{"start":9342.445,"end":9368.448,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第五條以取出受訴配偶一方之禁止植入另一方體內實施之配偶間人工生殖除第十六條第一項第三款及其違反之處罰規定外不適用本法之規定委員洪森漢范雲等二十一人提案第五條以取出受訴人配偶之禁止植入受訴人體內實施配偶間人工生殖除第十六條第三款及其違反之處罰規定外不適用本法之規定"},{"start":9369.289,"end":9392.212,"text":"委員吳佩奕等18人提案第5條以取出配偶金紙植入另一方體內實施之配偶兼人工生殖除第16條第3款及其違反之處罰規定外不適用本法之規定委員郭玉琴等16人提案第5條以取出一方之金紙植入一方體內實施之配偶兼人工生殖除第16條第3款及其違反之處罰規定外不適用本法之規定"},{"start":9393.899,"end":9416.872,"text":"委員張雅玲等21人提案第5條依取出配偶之一方之精子植入配偶另一方體內實施之配偶兼人工生殖除第16條第3款及其違反之處罰規定外不適用本法之規定行政院提案第5條中央主管機關應邀集人工生殖醫學倫理法律兒童權益性別平等或其他相關領域之學者專家"},{"start":9417.532,"end":9442.244,"text":"及民間團體代表斟酌社會倫理之觀念醫學科技之發展及公共衛生之維護組成人工生殖諮詢會定期檢討及評估本法執行之情形前向女性委員人數不得少於全體委員人數二分之一委員陳佩玉等十八人提案第四條中央主管機關應邀及人工生殖醫學倫理法律兒童權益或其他相關學者專家及民間團體代表"},{"start":9443.885,"end":9466.163,"text":"斟酌社會倫理之觀念醫學科技之發展及公共衛生之維護成立人工生殖技術諮詢會定期檢討及評估本法執行之情形前項委員會成員之女性委員人數不得少於全體委員人數二分之一第一項人工生殖技術諮詢會之組成運作開會頻率及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":9466.883,"end":9489.435,"text":"委員林月琴等17人提案第4條修正第三句之後文字為醫學之發展公共衛生之維護生育權及平等權之保障成立諮詢委員會定期研討本法執行之情形予以現行法同委員顏寬恒等16人提案第4條第一項第一句為主管機關應邀集人工升職倒數第4句為斟酌社會倫理觀念倒數第二句為成立諮詢委員會"},{"start":9494.338,"end":9497.108,"text":"予以願版第五條第一項同第二項如下"},{"start":9498.942,"end":9524.339,"text":"前項委員會成員之女性人數不得少於全體委員人數二分之一行政院提案第二章人工生殖技術要件及方式第六條夫妻或女同性雙方符合下列各款情形並通過第八條與第十條鎖定檢查機評估者得接受人工生殖一妻或女同性雙方至少一方能以其子宮懷孕及分娩其年滿四十五歲者"},{"start":9524.779,"end":9552.285,"text":"需經生理檢查無不適合懷孕或分娩之疾病或生理狀況二 夫妻具下列情形之一一 一方經診斷罹患不孕症二 一方罹患中央主管機關公告之重大遺傳性疾病經由自然生育顯有生育異常子女之餘三 夫妻至少一方具有健康之生殖細胞無需同時使用第三人捐贈精子及卵子女同性雙方至少一方具有健康之卵子"},{"start":9552.765,"end":9571.057,"text":"無需使用第三人捐贈卵子未婚女性符合下列各款情形並通過第八條與第十條鎖定檢查及評估者得接受捐贈精子值人工生殖一 與我國設有戶籍且於釋出前五年內每年與我國居住183日以上二 年滿18歲其年滿45歲者"},{"start":9573.539,"end":9602.467,"text":"需經生理檢查 無不適合懷孕或分娩之疾病或生理狀況三 具有健康之卵子不需使用第三人捐贈卵子且能以其子宮懷孕及分娩委員陳金輝等二十人提案第十一條修正第一項序文及第二款文字夫妻為瘦數配偶第二款聚莫增戀 逗號或配偶雙方因生理性相同至無法孕育子女修正第三款及第二款文字夫妻為配偶"},{"start":9602.927,"end":9631.622,"text":"予以先行法同委員黃階等二十二人提案第十一條刪除第一項續文夫妻二字修正第一項第一三款如下一 受訴者受訴配偶經依第七條規定實施檢查及評估結果適合接受人工生殖三 受訴配偶至少一方具有健康之生殖細胞無需接受他人捐贈精子或卵子前二項第二款情形而有醫學證當理由者得報竟主管機關核准後實施人工生殖"},{"start":9632.342,"end":9659.958,"text":"刪除第二項聚首夫妻二字予以現行法同委員林益錦等19人提案第11條受訴者符合下列各款情形者醫療機構使得為其實施人工生殖1 經醫第7條規定實施檢查及評估結果適合接受人工生殖2 受訴者經診斷罹患不孕症或罹患主管機關公告之重大遺傳性疾病經由自然生育顯有生育異常子女之餘"},{"start":9660.778,"end":9678.865,"text":"或为同性婚姻伴侣三 配偶至少一方具有健康之生殖细胞无需接受他人捐赠精子或卵子配偶无前项第二款情形而有医学正当理由者得报竞主管机关核准后实施人工生殖委员陈佩玉等18人提案第11条"},{"start":9680.74,"end":9698.13,"text":"修正第一項續文及第二項文字夫妻為配偶第一項續文及第一款以及第二項與先行法第一項續文及第一款以及第二項相同第一項第二款及第三款如下二 據下列情形之一者一 配偶一方經診斷罹患不孕症"},{"start":9698.61,"end":9717.338,"text":"二罹患中央主管機關公告之重大遺傳性疾病經由自然生育顯有生育異常子女之餘三依法完成結婚登記之同性雙方當事人無法生育子女三一方或雙方具有健康之生殖細胞無需接受他人捐贈精子或卵子"},{"start":9718.098,"end":9735.095,"text":"委員范雲等16人提案第11條受訴者或受訴配偶符合下列各款情形醫療機構使得為其實施人工升職1 經醫第7條規定實施檢查及評估結果適合接受人工升職2 受訴配偶符合以下任意情形"},{"start":9735.555,"end":9753.676,"text":"一 一方經診斷罹患不孕症二 一方罹患主管機關公告之重大遺傳性疾病經由自然生育顯有生育異常子女之餘三 配偶雙方因生理性別相同致無法生育子女三 受術者或受術配偶至少一方具有健康之生殖細胞"},{"start":9754.497,"end":9773.748,"text":"委員林楚瑩等十八人提案第十一條修正第一項文字夫妻為配偶修正第一項第二款手具如下配偶一方因生理性別相同至無法生育或經診斷罹患不孕症予以現行法同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十一條修正文字夫妻為瘦豬配偶並於第一項"},{"start":9773.848,"end":9794.179,"text":"像第二款巨莫增列逗號或配偶雙方因生理性別相同至無法生育子女予以現行法同委員林月琴等17人提案第11條修正第一項續文文字夫妻為瘦數人修正第一項第二三款第二項文字夫妻為已婚配偶增列第三項如下"},{"start":9794.679,"end":9816.579,"text":"無婚姻關係女性 受訴人與其配偶同性別者具有健康之生殖細胞得為人工生殖不以不能自然生育為接受人工生殖之條件予以現行法同委員洪森漢 范雲等21人提案第11條受訴配偶雙方當事人符合下列各款情形者醫療機構使得為其實施人工生殖"},{"start":9817.759,"end":9842.766,"text":"一 經醫第七條規定實施檢查及評估結果適合接受人工生殖二 受術配偶雙方當事人符合下列任意情形一 一方經診斷罹患不孕症或其他身體因素而無法孕育生產二 一方罹患主管機關公告之重大遺傳性疾病經由自然生育顯有生育異常子女之餘三 雙方因性別相同而無法孕育生產"},{"start":9843.746,"end":9862.511,"text":"三 受贖配偶雙方當事人至少一方具有健康之生殖細胞無需接受他方捐贈精子或卵子受贖配偶雙方當事人無前向第二款情形而有醫學正當理由者得報竟主管機關核准後實施人工生殖委員嚴寬衡等16人提案"},{"start":9864.741,"end":9884.591,"text":"第十一條第一項序文如下受訴者或受訴夫妻符合下列各款情形人工生殖機構使得為其實施人工生殖修正文字夫妻為受訴夫妻予以現行法同委員吳佩儀等十八人提案第十一條配偶符合下列各款情形者醫療機構使得為其實施人工生殖"},{"start":9885.712,"end":9909.811,"text":"一 經醫第七條規定實施檢查及評估結果適合接受人工生殖二 配偶生理性別相同或配偶一方經診斷罹患不孕症或罹患主管疾管公告之重大遺傳性疾病經由自然生育顯有生育異常子女之餘三 配偶至少一方具有健康之生殖細胞無需接受他方捐贈精子或卵子配偶無前向第二款情形"},{"start":9910.211,"end":9926.512,"text":"而有醫學正當理由者 得報竟主管機關核准後實施人工升職委員 林淑芬等18人提案第11條夫妻成立司法院釋字第748號解釋施行法第二條關係之配偶或未婚女性符合下列各款情形"},{"start":9927.914,"end":9951.088,"text":"醫療機構使得為其實施人工生殖一 經依第七條規定實施檢查及評估結果適合接受人工生殖二 夫妻成立司法院士自第七四八號解釋施行法第二條關係之配偶至少一方具有健康之生殖細胞無需接受他人捐贈精子或卵子未婚女性因具有健康生殖細胞無需接受他人捐贈卵子"},{"start":9952.469,"end":9977.634,"text":"委員郭育晴等16人提案第11條符合下列各款情形者醫療機構使得為其實施人工生殖一 受訴者經依第7條規定實施檢查及評估結果適合接受人工生殖二 無配偶 配偶為相同性別或配偶一方經診斷罹患不孕症或罹患主管機關公告之重大遺傳性疾病經由自然生育 顯有生育異常子女之餘"},{"start":9978.394,"end":9994.931,"text":"三 受贖者能以其子宫孕育生产胎儿或受贖者与其配偶至少一方具有健康之生殖细胞无需接受他人捐赠精子或卵子配偶无前项第二款情形而有医学正当理由者得报经组管机关核准后实施人工生殖"},{"start":9996.052,"end":10023.959,"text":"委員張雅玲等二期議論提案第十一條PELL符合下列各款情形者醫療機構使得為其實施人工生殖一 經醫第七條規定實施檢查及評估結果適合接受人工生殖二 PELL之一方經診斷罹患不孕症或罹患主管機關公告之重大遺傳性疾病經由自然生育顯有生育異常子女之餘三 PELL至少一方具有健康之生殖細胞無需接受他人捐贈精子或卵子"},{"start":10024.679,"end":10039.11,"text":"配偶無前項第二款情形而有醫學正當理由者得報竟主管機關核准後實施人工升職單身者經第七條檢查及評估得報竟主管機關核准後實施人工升職行政院提案"},{"start":10041.482,"end":10055.85,"text":"第七条前条第一项锁定对象得以下列方式实施人工生殖一植入夫妻生殖细胞所形成之胚胎二植入兽术配偶一方生殖细胞及第三能捐赠之生殖细胞所形成之胚胎"},{"start":10056.65,"end":10083.939,"text":"三 以第三人捐贈之精子植入瘦素配偶女方體內前條第二項所定對象得以下列方式實施人工生殖一 以第三人捐贈之精子植入體內二 植入其卵子及第三人捐贈之精子形成之胚胎第八條夫妻女同性雙方或未婚女性於接受人工生殖前應經中央主管機關指定之專業機構以人工生殖子女最佳利益伸縮一切情況為評估"},{"start":10085.339,"end":10111.73,"text":"前項評估應製作記錄第一項專業機構與其評估人員應具備之資格廢止指定評估之內容方式程序與前項評估記錄之製作保存方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第三章人工生殖機構實施人工生殖及管理委員嚴寬衡等16人提案第二章人工生殖機構實施人工生殖及管理行政院提案第九條"},{"start":10113.11,"end":10139.342,"text":"醫療機構因申請中央主管機關許可為人工生殖機構後 使得實施人工生殖 接受生殖細胞之捐贈 儲存或提供前項許可之有效期間為三年 期間屆滿人女繼續實施前項行為者 應於屆滿三個月前申請許可其申請許可之條件 程序 審查基準 廢止 管理及其他應遵行事項之辦法 由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":10140.442,"end":10168.066,"text":"委員陳佩玉等十八人提案第六條修正第一項文字主管機關為中央主管機關予以現行法第一項同第二項與現行法第二項同第三項如下前二項許可之有效期間為三年期限屆滿人欲繼續實施前項行為者應於屆滿三個月前申請許可其申請許可之條件申請程序審查基準廢止管理及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":10168.746,"end":10194.407,"text":"委員鄭正前等二十人提案第六條於第一項據莫增列文字如下分號該醫療機構應符合所得稅法第十七條列舉扣除額醫療及生育費相關規範予以現行法同委員顏寬恆等十六人提案第六條修正第一項文字醫療機構為人工生殖機構予以現行法同委員林淑芬等十八人提案第六條第三至第五項如下"},{"start":10195.848,"end":10211.679,"text":"醫療機構因申請主管機關許可後使得實施非以捐贈為目的之生殖細胞冷凍儲存及提供之行為前三項許可之有效期限為三年期限屆滿仍欲繼續實施前項行為者因於屆滿三個月前申請許可"},{"start":10212.179,"end":10237.732,"text":"其申請許可之條件生殖細胞或胚胎儲存之品質管理計畫申請程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法由主管機關定之主管機關對第一項至第三項機構應為定期查核並應公布查核結果其查核相關作業辦法由主管機關定之予以現行法同行政院提案第十條修正第一項序文如下人工生殖機構於實施人工生殖前"},{"start":10238.352,"end":10254.582,"text":"應就夫妻女同性雙方或未婚女性為下列之檢查及評估修正第四款如下四 其他經中央主管機關公告之事項予以現行法第七條同委員陳金輝等二十人提案第七條修正第一項序文莫具為"},{"start":10255.482,"end":10276.55,"text":"應就受訴配偶受訴者或捐贈人及其配偶為下列檢查及評估新增第四款如下四子女最佳利益原第四款移至第五款新增第三項如下第一項評估之評估者資格評估方式程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法由主管機關定之予以現行法同"},{"start":10277.19,"end":10295.932,"text":"委員黃潔等22人提案第7條修正第一項續文之文字受訴夫妻為受訴者或受訴配偶予以現行法同委員林依菁等19人提案第7條修正第一項續文之文字受訴夫妻為受訴者予以現行法同委員陳佩玉等18人提案第7條"},{"start":10303.956,"end":10313.621,"text":"修正第3及第4款如下3 有礙生育健康之遺傳性或傳染性疾病4 其他經中央主管機關公告之事項予以現行法同"},{"start":10314.321,"end":10333.11,"text":"委員范雲等16人提案第7條修正立項序文如下人工生殖機構或其他實施人工生殖前相關生理心理狀況等評估之委任機構於實施人工生殖或接受捐贈生殖細胞前應就受訴者或受訴配偶或捐贈人為下列之檢查及評估"},{"start":10333.75,"end":10360.053,"text":"新增第八項目下前項所稱醫療機構或其他具評估資格之委任機構其資格檢證相關規則由主管機關令定之予以現行法同委員林楚瑩等十八人提案第七條修正文字夫妻為配偶予以現行法同委員黃秀芳等十八人提案第七條於第一項敘文受訴夫妻後面增列頓號受訴者之文字予以現行法同"},{"start":10362.229,"end":10389.68,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第七條修正第一項序文如下人工生殖機構於實施人工生殖或接受捐贈生殖細胞前應就受贖者受贖配偶代孕者或捐贈人及其配偶為下列之檢查及評估新增第四款如下是子女最佳利益原第四款移至第五款新增第三項如下第一項檢查及評估之人員資格方式基準程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法"},{"start":10390.18,"end":10416.77,"text":"由主管機關定之予以現行法同委員林月琴等17人提案第7條修正第1項文字 受訴夫妻為受訴人新增第4款及第5款如下4 實施人工生殖或捐贈生殖細胞之理由5 捐贈人接受人工生殖子女於成年後知情及探親之意願原第4款已至第6款修正第2項及新增第3項如下前項之檢查及評估因製作紀錄"},{"start":10418.67,"end":10445.287,"text":"並前項第五款規定不得為拒絕捐贈生殖細胞之理由不得為捐贈不得為拒絕捐贈生殖細胞之理由第一項所稱醫療機構或其他具評估資格之委任機構其資格檢證相關規則由主管機關領訂之予以現行法同國民黨黨團提案第七條修正第一項序文之文字受訴夫妻為受訴夫妻頓號代孕者予以現行法同"},{"start":10446.167,"end":10474.486,"text":"委員洪森和范雲等21人提案第7條修正第一項續文之文字受訴夫妻為受訴人或受訴人配偶新增第三項及第四項如下人工生殖機構得委託受託評估機構進行第一項全部或一部之檢查及評估第一項之檢查及評估項目及方法前項受託評估機構之資格檢證及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關另訂之予以先行法同"},{"start":10475.106,"end":10498.226,"text":"委員顏寬恒等16人提案第7條修正第一項續文之文字受訴夫妻為受訴者 頓號受訴夫妻予以現行法第一項同第二項與現行法第二項同第三項與委員范雲等16人提案第三項同委員吳佩儀等18人提案第7條修正第一項續文之文字受訴夫妻為受訴者 頓號受訴配偶予以現行法同"},{"start":10498.846,"end":10518.045,"text":"委員林淑芬等十八人提案第七條修正第一項序文之文字授術夫妻為授術配偶頓好未婚授術女性予以現行法同委員郭育晴等十六人提案第七條修正第一項序文之文字授術夫妻為授術者予以現行法同委員張雅玲等二十一人提案"},{"start":10519.946,"end":10535.303,"text":"第七條修正第一項續文之文字受訴夫妻為受訴配偶頓耗受訴者予以現行法同行政院提案第十一條第一項續文及第一款予現行法第八條續文及第一款同第二至第四款如下二"},{"start":10535.943,"end":10554.745,"text":"經下列檢查及評估結果為適合捐贈一、一般心理及生理狀況二、家族疾病史包括本人、私親等以內血親之遺傳性疾病記錄三、有礙生育健康之遺傳性或傳染性疾病四、其他經中央主管機關公告之事項"},{"start":10555.566,"end":10576.839,"text":"三 以無償方式捐贈四 未曾捐贈或曾捐贈而使用其生殖細胞之女性受贖者未完成活產且未儲存其剩餘之生殖細胞第二至第四項如下前項第二款之檢查及評估應製作紀錄受贖配偶或受贖未婚女性在中央主管機關所定金額或價額內"},{"start":10578.34,"end":10595.548,"text":"提供營養費或營養品與捐贈人或負擔其必要之檢查醫療工時損失及交通費用其提供或負擔時應為請人工生殖機構為之第1項第4款鎖定情形人工生殖機構應向中央主管機關查明後使得接受捐贈"},{"start":10596.528,"end":10617.627,"text":"委員陳清輝等二十人提案第八條修正第二項文字授書夫妻為授書配偶頓號授書者予以現行法同委員黃潔等二十二人提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案第八條修正第一項第一款文字二十歲為十八歲修正第二項文字授書夫妻為授書者或授書配偶予以現行法同"},{"start":10618.368,"end":10643.678,"text":"委員林依卿等19人提案第8條修正第二項文字受訴夫妻為受訴者予以委員黃婕等22人提案同委員陳佩玉等18人提案第8條第一項與現行法第一項同修正第二項手續受訴配偶後面為頓耗予以院版第11條第三項同第三項與院版第11條第4項同委員范雲等16人提案第8條修正第一項第一款"},{"start":10644.258,"end":10661.505,"text":"莫具為未滿四十五歲予以委員黃婕等二十二人提案同委員林楚瑩等十八人提案第八條修正第一項第一款如下一五十歲以下成年男性四十歲以下成年女性修正文字夫妻為配偶予以現行法同"},{"start":10662.205,"end":10675.181,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人提案第8條修正第二項首句文字受訴夫妻為受訴夫妻或受訴者予以現行法同委員林月琴等17人提案第8條修正第一項第一款文字20歲為18歲"},{"start":10678.996,"end":10697.158,"text":"修正第二項文字 受訴夫妻為受訴人或其配偶予以現行法同委員洪聲翰 范雲等21人提案第8條修正第一項第一款文字 20歲為18歲修正第二項文字 受訴夫妻為受訴人或受訴人配偶予以現行法同"},{"start":10698.099,"end":10719.865,"text":"委員顏寬恆等16人提案第8條修正第一項第一款年齡為18歲於第二項聚首增列文字受訴者或予以現行法同委員吳珮儀等18人提案第8條修正第一項第一款文字20歲為18歲修正第二項文字受訴夫妻為受訴者或受訴配偶予以現行法同"},{"start":10720.465,"end":10742.91,"text":"委員林淑芬等18人提案第8條修正第一項第一款文字20歲為18歲修正第二項文字受訴夫妻為受訴配偶或未婚受訴女性予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等16人提案第8條修正第一項第一款文字20歲為18歲修正第二項文字受訴夫妻為受訴者予以現行法同"},{"start":10743.57,"end":10765.385,"text":"委員張雅玲等21人提案第8條修正第一項第一款文字20歲為18歲修正第二項文字受訴夫妻為受訴者頓號受訴配偶予以現行法同委員林淑彬等18人提案新增第8條之一未滿18歲者不得施行並提供非以捐贈為目的之生殖細胞冷凍儲存"},{"start":10766.966,"end":10777.298,"text":"但因醫療因素者不在此限行政院提案第12條人工生殖機構接受生殖細胞捐贈時應向捐贈人說明第27條至第29條第35條至第42條規定之相關權利義務及醫療風險經捐贈人了解及簽據書面同意後使得為之"},{"start":10786.949,"end":10805.244,"text":"人工生殖機構接受生殖細胞捐贈應製作紀錄並在名下列事項一 捐贈人之姓名住所或居所身份證明文件字號出生年月日身高體重血型膚色髮色及國籍二 捐贈項目及數量三 捐贈日期"},{"start":10806.505,"end":10832.864,"text":"委員陳佩玉等十八人提案第九條第一項如下人工生殖機構接受生殖細胞捐贈時應向捐贈人說明相關權利義務及醫療風險經捐贈人了解及簽署書面同意後使得為之第二項第二款及第三款如下二捐贈項目及數量三捐贈日期予以現行法同委員顏寬恒等十六人提案第九條第一項第三句如下"},{"start":10834.833,"end":10857.941,"text":"取得其瞭解及其親自簽據之同意書予以現行法同委員林淑芬等18人提案第9條修正第一項如下人工生殖機構接受生殖細胞捐贈時應向捐贈人說明施行方式可能發生之併發症及副作用以及相關權利義務並取得其瞭解及書面同意使得為之予以現行法同"},{"start":10858.801,"end":10876.259,"text":"委員林淑芬等18人提案新增第9條之一醫療機構實施第6條第三項行為前應向儲存生殖細胞者說明施行方式可能發生之併發症及副作用並應說明儲存方式及費用取得書面同意後使得進行前項醫療機構應與儲存生殖細胞者訂定書面契約"},{"start":10880.763,"end":10899.06,"text":"其書面契約之格式內容主管機關應訂定書面契約範本公參行政院提案第13條人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞不得同時或先後提供下列對象使用一 二對以上受訴配偶"},{"start":10899.6,"end":10924.858,"text":"二 二位以上瘦素未婚女性三 一對瘦素配偶與一位瘦素未婚女性前向使用生殖細胞之女性瘦素者未完成活產且有下列情形之一者同意捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞得繼續提供其他瘦素配偶或瘦素未婚女性使用一 已放棄實施人工生殖二 本人死亡三 其配偶死亡"},{"start":10926.55,"end":10945.663,"text":"同意捐贈人捐贈之生殖细胞于提供一位女性受数者成功怀孕后应急停止提供使用该女性受数者完成活产者应急医第29条规定处理同意女性受数者于同治疗周期内不得植入由不同捐贈人捐贈之生殖细胞所形成之胚胎"},{"start":10946.423,"end":10962.712,"text":"委員陳金輝等二十人提案第十條人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞不得同時提供二位授受者或二對以上授受配偶使用並於提供一位授受者或一對授受配偶成功懷孕後"},{"start":10964.504,"end":10984.79,"text":"應即停止提供使用 適該瘦素夫妻完成活產應即依第21條規定處理 但若用於同位瘦素者或同對瘦素配偶不在此限 委員黃潔等22人提案第10條人工生殖機構對同意捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞瘦素者或瘦素配偶則依提供"},{"start":10985.45,"end":11001.78,"text":"且不得同時提供二位以上瘦數者或二對以上瘦數配偶提供使用並於提供一位瘦數者或一對瘦數配偶成功懷孕後應即停止提供使用適該瘦數者或瘦數配偶完成活產應即依第21條規定處理"},{"start":11003.641,"end":11032.23,"text":"委員林一景等19人提案第10條人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞不得同時提供二位受贖者使用並於提供一位受贖者成功懷孕後應即停止提供使用似該受贖者完成活產應即依第21條規定處理委員陳培鈺等18人提案第10條人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞不得同時提供二位以上女性受贖者使用"},{"start":11033.925,"end":11052.061,"text":"前向受贈之女性受贖者未完成活產且已放棄人工生殖本人或其配偶死亡者同意捐贈人之生殖細胞得繼續提供其他受贖配偶或受贖未婚女性使用同意捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞於提供一位女性受贖者成功懷孕後"},{"start":11052.761,"end":11077.315,"text":"應即停止提供使用該女性受贖者完成活產者應即依第21條規定處理但依女性受贖者與同一治療周期內不得植入不同捐贈人生殖細胞所形成之胚胎女同性受贖配偶其一方以子宮孕育子女者得以己生之卵子或配偶他方之卵子與第三人捐贈之精子施行人工生殖"},{"start":11077.995,"end":11098.39,"text":"委員范雲等16人提案第10條修正後段如下四該受訴者或受訴配偶完成活產應及依第21條規定處理與委員陳金輝等20人提案同委員林楚瑩等18人提案第10條修正文字夫妻為配偶予以現行法同委員黃秀芳等18人提案第10條"},{"start":11099.19,"end":11114.349,"text":"人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞不得同時提供二對以上瘦素夫妻或二位以上瘦素者使用並於提供一對瘦素夫妻或一位瘦素者成功懷孕後應即停止提供使用"},{"start":11115.811,"end":11141.527,"text":"四 該瘦素夫妻或瘦素者完成活產應及依第21條規定處理台灣民眾黨黨團提案第10條人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞瘦素者或瘦素配偶應擇依提供且不得同時提供二位瘦素者或二對以上瘦素配偶使用並於提供一位瘦素者或一對瘦素配偶成功懷孕後應及停止提供使用"},{"start":11142.407,"end":11150.93,"text":"似該瘦數配偶完成活產應及依第21條規定處理但若用於同位瘦數者或同對瘦數配偶不在此限"},{"start":11152.864,"end":11176.254,"text":"委員林月琴等17人委員洪森漢范雲等21人提案第10條人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞不得同時提供二位以上瘦數人使用並於提供一位瘦數人成功懷孕後應即停止提供使用四該瘦數人完成活產應即依第21條規定處理委員吳佩義等18人提案第10條"},{"start":11177.114,"end":11194.271,"text":"人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞不得同時提供超過一名瘦數者或超過一對瘦數配偶使用並於提供瘦數者或瘦數配偶成功懷孕後應即停止提供使用似該瘦數者完成活產應即依第21條規定處理"},{"start":11196.093,"end":11220.391,"text":"委員 林淑芬等18人提案第10條人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞不得同時提供二對以上瘦素配偶或二名未婚瘦素女性使用並於提供一對瘦素配偶或一名未婚瘦素女性成功懷孕後應即停止提供使用似該瘦素配偶或未婚瘦素女性完成活產應即依第21條規定處理"},{"start":11222.512,"end":11240.247,"text":"委員郭玉琴等16人提案第10條人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞不得同時提供2位以上瘦數者使用並於提供1位瘦數者成功懷孕後應即停止提供使用致該瘦數者完成活產應即依第21條規定處理"},{"start":11242.548,"end":11261.604,"text":"委員張雅玲等21人提案第10條人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞不得同時提供二對以上瘦數者或瘦數配偶使用並於提供一對瘦數者或瘦數配偶成功懷孕後應即停止提供使用適該瘦數者或瘦數配偶完成活產應即依第21條規定處理"},{"start":11265.137,"end":11278.83,"text":"行政院提案第十四條人工生殖機構應確認夫妻或女同性雙方符合下列各款情形使得為其實施人工生殖依據第六條第一項規定之要件二經專業機構依第八條規定評估"},{"start":11281.172,"end":11303.91,"text":"符合人工生殖子女最佳利益三 經依第十條規定檢查及評估適合接受人工生殖夫妻無第六條第一項第二款規定情形而有醫學正當理由者人工生殖機構得報經中央主管機關核准後實施人工生殖第一項實施程序人工生殖機構應製作記錄並保存相關證明文件影本"},{"start":11307.714,"end":11334.622,"text":"行政院提案第15條 人工生殖機構應確認未婚女性符合下列課款情形者 使得為其實施人工生殖一 據第6條第二項規定之要件二 經專業機構依第8條規定評估符合人工生殖子女最佳利益三 經依第10條規定檢查及評估適合接受人工生殖前項實施程序人工生殖機構應製作記錄並保存相關證明文件影本"},{"start":11335.714,"end":11362.786,"text":"委員陳金輝等二十人提案第十一條之一無婚姻關係之女性符合下列各款情形之一者醫療機構使得為其實施人工生殖一 經依第七條規定實施檢查及評估結果適合接受人工生殖者二 具有健康之生殖細胞無需接受他人捐贈卵子者三 能以其子宮孕育生產胎兒者委員林一錦等十九人提案第十一條之一"},{"start":11365.485,"end":11378.878,"text":"呃 便跟陳金輝委員第十一條之一 第一 第一行女性二字改為受訴者同時刪除第一款 第二款 第三款最末製者其餘陳金輝等二十人提案同"},{"start":11380.68,"end":11406.825,"text":"文陳培宇等18人提案第11條之一未婚女性符合下列各款情形者醫療機構使得為其實施人工生殖1.經依第7條規定實施檢查及評估結果適合接受人工生殖2.得以其子宮懷孕生產胎兒且具有健康卵子無需接受他人捐贈卵子3.已滿30歲且未滿45歲文黃秀芳等18人提案第11條之一"},{"start":11409.835,"end":11426.801,"text":"修正陳金輝委員第一項第二行符合下列各款情形之一少之一二字同時刪除第一款最末字者其餘委員陳金輝等二十人提案同"},{"start":11431.235,"end":11448.266,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第十一條之一不具永久結合關係之女性符合下列各款情形之一者醫療機構使得為其實施人工生殖第一二三款與委員陳金輝等二十人提案同委員洪生翰范雲等二十一人提案"},{"start":11450.424,"end":11477.561,"text":"第十一條之一無配偶之受訴者符合下列各款情形者醫療機構使得為其實施人工升職一經第七條規定實施檢查及評估結果適合接受人工升職二受訴人具有健康之卵子無需接受他人捐贈為無配役等18人提案第十一條之一第一行刪除"},{"start":11478.622,"end":11493.489,"text":"黃秀芳等18人提案第六個字知並刪除第一款最末字者以及刪除第三款其餘與委員黃秀芳等18人提案同"},{"start":11498.894,"end":11515.521,"text":"行政院提案第十六條人工生殖機構於每次實施人工生殖前應向受訴配偶雙方或受訴未婚女性說明下列事項並取得其親自簽據之失訴同意書後實得為之一人工生殖之必要性二人工生殖之實施方式"},{"start":11516.221,"end":11542.202,"text":"三 人工生殖之成功率可能发生之并发症及危险四 其他可能替代治疗方式五 剩余生殖细胞及胚胎之处置六 其他经中央主管机关指定之事项人工生殖机构实施人工生殖对于受数配偶以使用第三人捐赠之生殖细胞方式实施者应取得该受数配偶非提供生殖细胞一方之书面同意实得为之"},{"start":11543.018,"end":11572.223,"text":"人工生殖機構實施人工生殖對於女同性雙方之一方使用以他方之卵子與第三人捐贈精子方式實施者應取得女同性雙方之書面同意使得為之前二項書面同意應經公證人公證文成金輝等二十人提案第十二條第一項第二行修改授書者"},{"start":11572.796,"end":11596.12,"text":"盾號受訴配偶第六行修改受訴者盾號受訴配偶雙方第二項第二行修改受訴者盾號受訴配偶第三行應取得受訴配偶他方之書面同意予以現行法同委員黃婕等二十人提案第一項第二行修改為受訴者受訴配偶"},{"start":11600.233,"end":11617.935,"text":"第二項第二行修改為瘦瘦素配偶第三行改為生殖細胞第四行改為瘦素配偶之一方予以線性發通文林醫警等19人提案第一項第二行應向瘦素者"},{"start":11619.036,"end":11644.049,"text":"第六行及受訴者具婚姻關係受訴者配偶第二項第二行對於受訴者具婚姻關係受訴者及第四行受訴者具婚姻關係受訴者配偶一方第七行取得受訴者遁號具婚姻關係受訴者配偶一方予以現行法同委員陳培宇等18人提案第12條"},{"start":11650.993,"end":11654.451,"text":"醫療機構每次實施人工生殖前應向瘦數配偶瘦數"},{"start":11657.332,"end":11685.399,"text":"配有受數未婚女性說明下列事項一人工生殖之必要性二人工生殖之施行方式三人工生殖之成功率可能發生之併發症及危險四其他可能替代治療方式五剩餘生殖細胞胚胎之處置六其他經中央主管機關指定之事項醫療機構每次實施人工生殖前應取得受數配有雙方受數未婚女性簽署施數同意書後使得為其實行人工生殖"},{"start":11686.249,"end":11715.695,"text":"医疗机构实施人工生殖对于瘦素配偶以接受第三人捐赠之精子方式实施者并取得该瘦素配偶非提供生殖细胞一方之书面同意时的为之医疗机构实施人工生殖对于女性女童性瘦素配偶之一方接受他方之卵子与第三人捐赠之精子方式实施者并因取得女童性配偶双方之书面同意时的为之"},{"start":11717.25,"end":11745.143,"text":"前二項這書面同意並應經公證人公證委員范雲等16人提案第12條第一項第二行應向受訴者或受訴配偶第六行得其了解及受訴者或受訴配偶及第二項第二行對於受訴配偶一方第四行應取得他方配偶予以現行法同委員林楚英等18人提案第12條"},{"start":11746.65,"end":11768.357,"text":"第1項第2行因向授訴配偶第6行授訴配偶第2項第2行對於授訴配偶一方及第4行得授訴他方配偶之書面同意與現行法同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第12條第1項第2行因向授訴者授訴配偶第6行"},{"start":11769.324,"end":11788.138,"text":"了解及授受者或授受配偶雙方第二項第二行對於授受配偶第三行之精子或卵子第四行取得授受配偶他方及第五行使得為之予以現行法同為寧願請等17人提案第12條"},{"start":11790.339,"end":11802.006,"text":"第一項第二行應向受訴人或受訴之已婚配偶第六行取得其了解及受訴人或受訴之已婚配偶第二項第二行"},{"start":11803.803,"end":11823.378,"text":"對於受訴之已婚配偶一方以及第四行並應取得他方第五行莫自異同與現行法同委員洪森和范雲等二十一人提案第十二條第一項第二行應向受訴人或受訴配偶雙方當事人第六行取得其了解及"},{"start":11824.219,"end":11839.199,"text":"瘦素人或瘦素配偶雙方當事人第二項第二行對於瘦素配偶雙方當事人第四行瘦素人配偶及第六行瘦素人欲現行法同委員寬恆等16人提案第12條"},{"start":11841.926,"end":11869.501,"text":"第一行人工生殖機構第二行應向受贖者或受贖夫妻第六行取得其瞭解及受贖者或第七行雙方親自簽據第二項第一行人工生殖機構第二行對於受贖者或受贖夫妻第三行捐贈之生殖細胞第四行取得受贖者親自簽據之同意書其有配偶者並應取得配偶親自簽據之同意書"},{"start":11870.882,"end":11897.454,"text":"第三項第一行修改為本條予以現行法通文與無配意等十八人提案第十二條第一項第二行應向受訴者或受訴配偶第六行受訴者或受訴配偶雙方第二項第二行對於受訴配偶第三行之生殖細胞第四行受訴配偶另一方予以現行法通文與零數分等十八人提案第十二條"},{"start":11898.755,"end":11927.47,"text":"第一項 第二項 應向瘦素配偶或未婚瘦素女性增列第二項 前項書面同意對於瘦素配偶應取得雙方同意與未婚瘦素女性應取得本人同意第三項 第一項實施第一項 第二項對於瘦素配偶一方 第四項取得他方配偶 第六項取得他方配偶之書面同意與現行法同委員過預請等16人提案第12條"},{"start":11930.919,"end":11955.701,"text":"第1項第2行 應向授訴者第6行授訴者 第2項第2行對於已婚授訴者 第3行金子或卵子第4行取得授訴者配偶予以現行法同 委員張阿玲等21人提案第12條第1項第2行 應向授訴者或授訴配偶第6行"},{"start":11956.599,"end":11965.563,"text":"受訴者或受訴配偶第二項第二行受訴者或受訴配偶予以現行法同行政院提案第17條"},{"start":11968.294,"end":11985.866,"text":"人工生殖机构于每次实施取卵膏丸取经、复膏取经、输精管取经及其他手术前应向女性受术者受术配偶男方或捐赠人说明手术原因、手术成功率或可能发生之并发症及危险"},{"start":11987.047,"end":12010.097,"text":"並取得其親自簽具之手術同意書及麻醉同意書人工生殖機構於每次實施胚胎植入侵入性檢查或治療前應向女性受術者或受術配偶男方說明並取得其親自簽具之同意書文言寬恒等16人提案第12條之一人工生殖機構於每次實施取卵告案取經復稿取經"},{"start":12012.472,"end":12030.189,"text":"第一項與行政院同第二項第三行應向受訴者或受訴夫妻說明於行政院提案同行政院提案第18條人工升職機構實施人工升職第二行配偶任一方或受訴未婚不應"},{"start":12030.987,"end":12055.487,"text":"不得因受贖配偶任一方或受贖未婚女性要求使用特定捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞接受捐贈生殖細胞不得因捐贈人要求將其捐贈之生殖細胞使用於特定受贖配偶或受贖未婚女性人工生殖機構應將捐贈人之身高血型膚色及國籍資料提供與受贖配偶或受贖未婚女性"},{"start":12056.448,"end":12082.524,"text":"文成金會等二十人提案第十三條第一項第二行受訴者頓耗受訴配者第五行受訴者頓耗受訴配偶第二項第二行受訴者頓耗受訴配偶予以現行法同文黃姐等二十人提案第十三條第一項第二行受訴者頓耗受訴配偶"},{"start":12084.4,"end":12110.496,"text":"第五行 受訴者 頓耗受訴配偶 但指定使用受訴配偶之一方生殖細胞者不在此限第二項 第二行 受訴者 頓耗受訴配偶予以現行法同為林益錦等19人提案第13條第一項 第三行 但指定使用受訴配偶雙方之生殖細胞者不在此限第二項 第二行供受訴者予以現行法同"},{"start":12114.69,"end":12126.716,"text":"文成配語等18人提案第13條第一項第二行瘦素配偶或瘦素未婚女性第六行配偶或瘦素未婚女性第二項第二行"},{"start":12127.62,"end":12148.582,"text":"瘦瘦配偶或瘦瘦未婚女性增列第三項醫療機構就捐贈者捐贈人身份應與保密及採取資訊安全防護措施依法提供病歷時複製本時一通委員范雲等16人提案第13條第一項第二行瘦瘦者或瘦瘦配偶第六行"},{"start":12149.38,"end":12171.103,"text":"特定之瘦素者或瘦素配偶增列第二項但指定使用瘦素配偶雙方之生殖細胞者不在此限第三項第二行為瘦素配偶欲現行法同委員您處應等18人提案第13條第一項第二行瘦素配偶"},{"start":12179.397,"end":12203.093,"text":"第一項第五行 受訴配偶第二項第二行 受訴配偶予以現行法同委員黃秀芳等18人提案第一項第二行 受訴夫妻或受訴者第一項第五行 夫妻或受訴者第二項第三行 夫妻或受訴者予以現行法同"},{"start":12205.683,"end":12214.032,"text":"臺民眾黨黨團提案第十三條第一項第二行受訴者頓耗受訴配偶第五行受訴者頓耗受訴配偶"},{"start":12214.909,"end":12244.164,"text":"第二項 第二行 受數者遁號受數配偶予以現行法通委擬願請等17人提案第13條第一項 第二行 受數人或其配偶第五行 用於特定之受數人增列第二項 受數人之配偶具健康之生殖細胞但有不能懷孕之病徵經醫師評估得使用同性別配偶之生殖細胞為人工生殖但受孕所配對之生殖細胞應依前項規定接受捐贈"},{"start":12246.499,"end":12266.753,"text":"第三項實施變性手術為女性者於變性前所保存之生殖細胞得為結婚或司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法第二條規定關係成立後之已婚配偶使用不受第一項規定限制第四項第二行第七條第一項"},{"start":12269.878,"end":12292.897,"text":"各款資料供受訴人或已婚配偶參考予以現行法同為洪森和范雲等21人提案第13條第一項第二行受訴人或受訴人配偶第五行受訴配偶雙方當事人但指定使用受訴人配偶之生殖細胞則不在此限第二項第二行受訴人或受訴配偶雙方當事人予以現行法同"},{"start":12295.953,"end":12308.333,"text":"文言寬恒等16人提案第13條第一行人工升職第二行不得因受訴者或受訴夫妻第五行用於特定之受訴者或"},{"start":12309.301,"end":12337.382,"text":"第二項第一行人工生殖機構第二行供授者授書者或授書夫妻予以現行法同委員吳佩儀等18人提案第13條第一項第二行授書者或授書配偶第五行授書者或授書配偶第二項第二行授書者或授書配偶予以現行法同委員林淑芬等18人提案第13條第一項第二行授書配偶或未婚授書女性第六行"},{"start":12338.68,"end":12351.889,"text":"配偶或未婚受贖女性但依司法院釋字第748號解釋施行法第二條成立關係之受贖配偶得要求使用配偶一方捐贈之生殖細胞"},{"start":12354.517,"end":12381.212,"text":"第二項第二行 瘦素配偶或未婚瘦素女性予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等16人提案第13條第一項第二行 瘦素者第五行 瘦素者但指定使用瘦素配偶一方之生殖細胞則不在此限第二項第二行 瘦素者予以現行法同委員張雅玲等21人提案第13條第一項第二行 瘦素者或瘦素配偶"},{"start":12381.933,"end":12387.87,"text":"第五行受贖者或受贖配偶第二項第二行受贖者或受贖配偶予以現行法通"},{"start":12390.771,"end":12414.619,"text":"行政院提案第19條人工生殖機構實施人工生殖因製作記錄並載明下列事項一 受贖配偶或受贖未婚女性之姓名住所或居所身份證明文件字號出生年月日身高體重血型膚色及髮色二 捐贈人之身份證明文件字號聯絡方法及在該人工生殖機構之病例號碼三 人工生殖事數"},{"start":12416.192,"end":12438.867,"text":"情形四 女同性雙方之卵子提供者及懷孕者之姓名人工生殖機構依受數配偶或受數未婚女性要求提供前項紀錄複製本時不得包含前項第二款資料文成經會等二十人提案第十四條第一款受數者頓耗受數配偶"},{"start":12441.089,"end":12455.561,"text":"第二項第一行醫療機構與受訴者 配偶與現行法同委員黃婕等22人提案與陳金輝委員等20人提案同委員林益錦等19人提案第14條"},{"start":12457.472,"end":12475.037,"text":"第一款 第一行受訴者 頓耗受訴者及其配偶欲現行法通文成 培宇等18人提案第14條第一款第一行修正受訴配偶 頓耗受訴未婚女性第二行"},{"start":12476.474,"end":12494.713,"text":"身份證明文件字號第二款第一行身份證明文件字號增列第四款女同性授受配偶其卵子提供者與懷孕者之姓名同時刪除第二項予以現行法同委員范雲等16人提案第14條"},{"start":12496.335,"end":12523.088,"text":"第一款受訴者或受訴配偶第二項依受訴者或受訴配偶予以現行法同委員陳金輝等20人提案同委員林楚英等18人提案第14條修正第一款第一行受訴配偶第二項第一行受訴配偶予以現行法同委員黃秀芳等18人提案第14條"},{"start":12525.635,"end":12543.633,"text":"第一款受贖夫妻或受贖者第二項第一行受贖夫妻或受贖者予以現行法同團民眾黨黨團提案第14條第一款受贖者頓耗受贖配偶或代孕者"},{"start":12545.984,"end":12572.786,"text":"第二項第一行 受訴者頓耗受訴配偶或代孕者欲現行法同委擬願請等17人提案第14條第一款受訴人或受訴人及其配偶之第二項第一行受訴人或受訴之已婚配偶欲現行法同國民黨黨團提案第14條修正第一款第一行或代孕者"},{"start":12573.971,"end":12600.589,"text":"第二項第一行 受贖夫妻或代孕者予以現行法同 文紅生和范雲等21人提案第14條第一款修正第一款第一行 受贖人或受贖配偶雙方當事人第二項第一行 受贖人或受贖配偶雙方當事人予以現行法同文言寬恒等16人提案第14條"},{"start":12603.703,"end":12617.204,"text":"第一項第一行修改為人工生殖第一款第一行修改為受訴者或第二項第一行修改為人工生殖機構一受訴者或"},{"start":12618.482,"end":12636.666,"text":"同時增列第三項人工生殖機構及其所屬人員因執行業務之息或持有瘦屬配偶瘦屬未婚女性捐贈人及人工生殖子女隱私資訊因於保密不得洩漏予以現行法同為無配意等18人提案第14條第一款"},{"start":12638.058,"end":12665.596,"text":"修改為受訴者或受訴配偶第二項第一行修改為受訴者或受訴配偶予以現行法同委員林淑芬等18人提案第14條第一款第一行修正為受訴配偶或未婚受訴女性第二項第一行修改為受訴配偶或未婚女性予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等16人提案第14條第一款"},{"start":12666.397,"end":12686.243,"text":"第一行修改為受訴者第二項第一行修改為受訴者予以現行法同委員張雅玲的20人提案第14條第一款第一行修改為受訴者或受訴配偶第二項第一行修改為受訴者或受訴配偶予以現行法同行政院提案第20條"},{"start":12689.417,"end":12713.152,"text":"第四款增列女同性雙方之一方與他方之直系血清第二項第一行修改為逗號因有人工生殖機構查證之分號期第三行內容遁號項目第四行由中央主管機關第三項"},{"start":12715.854,"end":12737.948,"text":"配合條次進行調整修改為不適用第44條第一款規定予以現行法同文成金輝等20人提案第15條第二款第一行修改為同性配偶他方之直系血親或他方配偶直系血親之配偶予以現行法同"},{"start":12739.704,"end":12764.138,"text":"文黃潔等22人提案第15條增列第三款同性配偶他方之直系血親或他方配偶直系血親之配偶同時第一原第三款予以現行法同文成佩瑜等18人提案第15條下列親屬間逗號不得為生殖細胞之捐贈與"},{"start":12765.999,"end":12793.056,"text":"同時增列第四款同性授受配偶之一方與他方之直系寫清第二項第一行改為逗號應由人工生殖機構第三行遁號女性授受者或授受配偶身份資料第五行由中央主管及管第三項第一行致查證結果予以現行法同委員范雲等16人提案第15條第二款"},{"start":12794.366,"end":12820.276,"text":"逗號同姓配偶他方之直系血親或他方配偶直系血親之配偶予以現行法同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第15條增列第三款同姓配偶他方之直系血親或直系血親之配偶第一員第三款予以現行法同為林月琴等17人提案第15條增列第4款"},{"start":12821.556,"end":12840.825,"text":"成立司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法第二條規定關係配偶之直系血親頓號直系陰親旁系血親在四親等以內者旁系陰親在五親等以內備份不相同者與現行法同"},{"start":12844.662,"end":12872.894,"text":"為洪森漢范雲等21人提案第15條 增列第3款同性配偶他方之直系血親第4款同性配偶他方直系血親之配偶並遞移原第3款予以現行法同為吳佩義等18人提案第15條 增列第3款同性配偶他方之直系血親或他方配偶直系血親之配偶予以現行法同為林淑芬等18人提案第15條"},{"start":12875.137,"end":12901.58,"text":"第二款成立司法院釋字第748號解釋施刑法第二條關係之配偶他方之直系血親或其直系血親之配偶予以現行法同委員過於請等16人提案第15條增列第4款同性配偶他方之直系血親直系姻親與自親等內之旁系血親予以現行法同"},{"start":12904.761,"end":12919.174,"text":"行政院提案第二十一條人工生殖機構第三行修改為逗號未經許可為人工生殖機構之醫療機構一同欲現行法同"},{"start":12921.383,"end":12941.431,"text":"文謝一鳳等17人提案第16條增列第二項胚胎植入之數量由主管機關依據人工生殖技術發展狀況懷孕成功機率及保護胎兒生存權之原則訂定胚胎植入數標準"},{"start":12943.789,"end":12972.863,"text":"委員陳金輝等20人提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第16條與委員謝一鳳等17人提案同行政院提案第22條人工生殖機構實施人工生殖屬人體實驗人體研究或臨床試驗者應依相關法律規定辦理委員嚴寬衡等16人提案第17條與行政院提案同"},{"start":12981.952,"end":13005.457,"text":"行政院提案刪除原現行法第18條委員陳金輝等20人提案第18條第一行授訴者頓耗授訴配偶第四行授訴者頓耗授訴配偶予以現行法通委員黃姐等20人提案第18條"},{"start":13007.119,"end":13033.22,"text":"第一行 受訴者頓耗受訴配偶之一方予以現行法同為原懲判予以等18人提案第18條第一行 與女性受訴者懷孕後予以現行法同為原零處因等18人提案第18條第一行 受訴配偶及第三行 受訴配偶予以現行法同談民眾黨黨團提案第18條"},{"start":13035.58,"end":13061.572,"text":"第一行 受訴者頓耗受訴配偶一方 第四行受訴者頓耗受訴配偶一方予以現行法通 委員林月琴等17人提案第18條第一行修改為受訴人予以現行法通 委員洪森漢范雲等21人提案第18條修改第一行與受訴人及第三行建議受訴人予以現行法通 委員顏寬衡等16人提案第18條"},{"start":13062.955,"end":13085.495,"text":"第一行人工生殖機構第三行增加逗號予以現行法同委員吳佩義等18人提案第18條第一行修改為受贖者或受贖配偶以其子宮孕育生產胎兒之一方予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等16人提案第18條第一行"},{"start":13086.425,"end":13102.999,"text":"修改為受訴者第三行修改為受訴者予以現行法同文章R0等21人提案第18條第一行修改為受訴者或受訴配偶之一方第四行修改為受訴者或受訴配偶之一方予以現行法同文謝一鳳等"},{"start":13105.384,"end":13116.266,"text":"17人提案委員陳金輝等20人提案委員王玉明等18人提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案國民黨黨團提案第三章之一章名均為代孕生殖之施行"},{"start":13119.252,"end":13147.167,"text":"委員謝依鳳等17人提案第18條之一受訴夫妻委託代孕生子出符合第11條第一項第一款第三款規定外至少一人因具有中華民國國籍並符合下列情形之一一妻無子宮二妻因子宮免疫疾病或其他事實難以孕育子女三妻因懷孕或分娩有嚴重危及生命之餘"},{"start":13148.207,"end":13174.065,"text":"受贖夫妻委托代孕生子需他人捐赠金子或卵子时不得使用代孕者之卵子代孕者有配偶时不得使用其配偶之金子文成金辉等二十人提案第十八条之一将委员谢一凤等十七人提案之受贖夫妻均改为受贖配偶"},{"start":13175.145,"end":13203.648,"text":"同時修改第二行除符合第11條規定外第二項也改為授訴配偶與委員謝一鳳等17人提案同委員王玉敏等18人提案及國民黨黨團提案第18條之一與委員謝一鳳等17人提案同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第18條之一與委員陳金會等20人提案同"},{"start":13205.29,"end":13229.827,"text":"文謝一鳳等17人提案第18條之二代孕者於接受代孕生殖前應符合下列各款條件一具有中華民國國籍且設有戶籍之成年女性二曾有生產子女之經驗三經心理生理家庭與社會可能產生之影響及風險進行專業評估適合代孕四經生理狀況檢查無不適合"},{"start":13232.268,"end":13238.895,"text":"懷孕或生產之疾病傳染性疾病或其他經主管機關公告之疾病且適合待孕"},{"start":13239.85,"end":13266.9,"text":"五代孕者有配偶者其配偶經生理狀況檢查無影響胎兒健康之傳染性疾病六曾完成代孕生殖次數不得於二次第一項第三款專業評估應由專業人員為之並製作記錄其專業評估者資格專業評估方式程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法由主管機關定之第一項第四款第五款之檢查由人工生殖機構為之並應製作記錄"},{"start":13273.106,"end":13277.203,"text":"文成金會等20人提案第18條之二"},{"start":13283.031,"end":13303.86,"text":"除委員謝一鳳等17人提案第一項外令增列第五款代孕子女之最佳第一第六款代孕者有配偶者其配偶經生理狀況檢查無影響胎兒健康之傳染病同時增列第二項前項代孕者曾代孕時其曾完成代孕生殖次數不得於二次"},{"start":13304.92,"end":13328.945,"text":"增列第三項第一項代孕者有配偶時第一項第三款評估應包括該配偶同時第四項第一行修改為第一項第三款專業二字刪除及第四行增列由中央主管中央兩個字予以謝依奉等17人提案同"},{"start":13332.049,"end":13355.155,"text":"為王玉敏等18人提案第18條之二第一款修改且設有戶籍等字第三行修改為經專責機構進行心理及社會狀況評估適合待遇同時修正"},{"start":13358.154,"end":13381.03,"text":"第二項為前項代孕者曾代孕時期曾完成代孕生殖次數不得於二次同時增列第三項主管機關應指定或委託專責機構執行第一項第三款制評估並製作記錄其評估方式程序及其他應遵行事項辦法由主管機關定之與謝一鳳等17人提案同台民眾黨黨團提案第18條之二"},{"start":13387.585,"end":13405.257,"text":"刪除第三款且適合代孕的且字第五款代孕子女之最佳利益同時第一原第五款然後增列第二項前項代孕"},{"start":13406.365,"end":13433.235,"text":"者曾代孕時期曾完成代孕生殖次數不得於二次 第三項第一項代孕者有配偶時第一項第三款評估因包括該配偶修正第四項第四行陳靜惠的第四項第四行中央二字中央二字拿掉然後與陳靜惠等二十人提案同國民黨黨團提案第十八條之二"},{"start":13436.462,"end":13456.349,"text":"第一款改為具有中華民國國籍第三行心理生理家庭第二行可能產生之影響及風險進行評估第二項第四行中央二字拿掉予以委員陳金輝等二十人提案同"},{"start":13458.947,"end":13481.533,"text":"為謝依鳳等17人提案第18條之三 受訴夫妻委託代孕者代孕前與擬代孕者應先經前條之專業評估與檢查後再簽訂代孕契約代孕契約應依公正法公正之 並送主管機關被查為陳靜惠等20人提案第18條之三 受訴配偶委託代孕者代孕前"},{"start":13482.473,"end":13504.299,"text":"应予你代孕者经受数机构专业咨询。代孕者有配偶时,前项接受专业咨询及签订代孕契约之当事人应包括该配偶。第一项业咨询人员之资格专业咨询之范围与方式主管机关和定制办法及其他应遵行事项由主管机关定制。"},{"start":13505.461,"end":13534.921,"text":"为王玉敏等18人提案第18条之三,受诉夫妻委托代孕者代孕前,与你代孕者应先经专业咨询后,再签订代孕契约,代孕契约应依法公正之。前项专业咨询应包括对受诉夫妻及代孕者之心理、生理、家庭与社会可能产生之影响及风险。代孕者有配偶时,前二项接受专业咨询及签订代孕契约之当事人应包括该配偶。"},{"start":13536.001,"end":13561.702,"text":"前三項專業諮詢人員之資格專業諮詢之範圍與方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法由主管機關定之團民眾黨黨團提案第十八條之三受訴配偶委託代孕者代孕前與擬代孕者均應先經人工生殖機構進行專業諮詢前條之專業評估與檢查後再簽訂代孕契約代孕契約應依法公正之"},{"start":13562.717,"end":13588.213,"text":"代孕者有配偶時前向簽訂代孕契約至當事人應包括該配偶第一項執行專業諮詢之人員資格範圍程序與方式及其他應遵行事項由主管機關定之國民黨黨團提案第十八條之三受訴夫妻與委託代孕者代孕前與擬代孕者應先經前調至專業諮詢後再簽訂代孕契約代孕契約應依法公正之"},{"start":13593.512,"end":13606.989,"text":"委員謝依鳳等17人提案第18條之四代孕契約之內容應保障代孕者之下列權利一 健康資訊及生活不受干擾之隱私權二"},{"start":13608.531,"end":13636.101,"text":"怀孕期间对身体健康相关事项之身体自主权三生产后对代孕子女是否有探视权得由双方于事先约定之四同一周期怀孕失败后有终止契约或拒绝续约之权利五受诉夫妻为代孕者投保人身保险之权利前项第三款探视权之有无及实施方式与期限由代孕者与受诉夫妻约定之"},{"start":13637.041,"end":13661.984,"text":"其約定有害代孕子女之歷史少年及家事法院或地方法院家事法庭得依受訴夫妻或其他利害關係人之請求或依職權便根之第一項代孕契約之定型化內容與其應記載及不得記載事項由主管機關定之文成金會等二十人提案"},{"start":13664.946,"end":13687.214,"text":"第3項 前項第3款探 第1行前項第3款探視權之有頓耗無增加頓耗於委員謝一鳳等17人提案同委員王玉明等18人提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案及國民黨黨團提案第18條之4 均與委員謝一鳳等17人提案18條之4同"},{"start":13691.516,"end":13711.269,"text":"文謝一鳳等17人提案第18條之五代孕者之代孕以互助為原則但受贖夫妻在主管機關所定金額或價額內得對代孕者提供酬金並應提供營養費或營養品或負擔其必要之檢查諮詢醫療照護交通工時損失及其他相關費用"},{"start":13712.898,"end":13739.265,"text":"委員陳金輝等20人提案委員王玉敏等18人提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案國民黨黨團提案第18條之五均與委員謝依鳳等17人提案同委員謝依鳳等17人提案第18條之六人工生殖機構施行代孕生殖前應向相關人員機構查詢本法所定相關事項其查詢對象及內容如下一 受贖夫妻"},{"start":13740.825,"end":13758.837,"text":"第18條之一第一項規定事項二代孕者第18條之二第一項第一款第二款規定事項三瘦瘦夫妻及代孕者第18條之三第一項代孕契約四主管機關第18條之一第二項及第18條之二第二項規定事項"},{"start":13763.174,"end":13779.414,"text":"委員陳靜惠等二十人提案第十八條之六除第一項第三行增列確認二字予以委員謝一鳳等十七人提案同委王玉明等十八人提案團民眾黨黨團提案國民黨黨團提案同委員"},{"start":13780.99,"end":13804.911,"text":"王玉敏等18人提案第18條之7委員謝一鳳等17人提案第18條之7經主管機關許可之居間代孕服務機構得於受訴夫妻委託代孕者代孕前後提供居間協調協助代孕契約簽訂之相關服務並得著手必要費用居間代孕服務機構之資格申請許可之程序許可之費值"},{"start":13806.266,"end":13824.1,"text":"必要費用之範圍廣告及其他應遵行事項之辦法由主管機關定之委員陳金輝等二十人提案第十八條之七第一項第二行得與受訴配偶改為配偶二字與委員謝一鳳等十七人提案同"},{"start":13825.799,"end":13833.97,"text":"委員王玉敏等18人提案國民黨黨團提案與委員謝一鳳等17人提案同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第18條之6與委員陳金輝等20人提案第18條之7同"},{"start":13841.465,"end":13857.464,"text":"文謝一鳳等17人提案第18條之八人工生殖機構因於施行代孕生殖胚胎植入手術完成後就懷孕成功且受孕之胚胎系受術夫妻委託代孕而植入之事項出具書面證明"},{"start":13858.345,"end":13881.056,"text":"前項證明文件之內容格式及其他相關事項由主管機關定之受贖夫妻與代孕者於代孕契約期間應相互告知胎兒成長發育重要資訊前項必要告知事項由主管機關定之文成金輝等二十人提案第十八條之八修改第一項第四行受贖配偶"},{"start":13883.393,"end":13910.308,"text":"第二項第三行由主管機關公告第三項第一行修改為瘦素配偶育委員謝一鳳等17人提案同委員王玉明等18人提案第18條之八人工生殖機構應於施行代孕生殖胚胎植入手術完成後就懷孕成功且受孕之胚胎系瘦素夫妻委託代孕而植入以及代孕胎兒出生之事項初具書面證明"},{"start":13911.28,"end":13939.41,"text":"前項證明文件之內容格式及其他相關事項由主管機關定之臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第十八條之八除第一項第四行修改為逗號以及代孕胎兒出生與委員陳金輝等二十人提案同國民黨黨團提案第十八條之八與委員王玉明等十八人提案第十八條之八同"},{"start":13942.679,"end":13955.019,"text":"文謝依奉等17人提案第18條之9代孕者符合前條規定所生之子女視為受贖夫妻之婚生子女代孕生殖胎兒以將來非慈產者為限"},{"start":13957.279,"end":13983.439,"text":"關於其個人利益之保護是為繼已出生代孕生殖胎兒出生前受贖夫妻雙方死亡者其出生後被收養時代孕者得優先收養之以受贖夫之經子與他人捐贈之卵子或以受贖妻之卵子與他人捐贈之經子受胎所生代孕子女受贖妻或夫能證明其同意代孕生殖"},{"start":13984.459,"end":14006.304,"text":"係受詐欺或脅迫者得提起代孕子女婚生否認之訴前項否認之訴自該代孕子女出生後一年內為之委員陳經會等二十人提案第十八條之九第一項第二行第三項第一行第四行"},{"start":14007.83,"end":14036.924,"text":"均修改為瘦數配偶 夫妻改為配偶二字與委員謝一鳳等17人提案同委員王玉銘等18人提案第18條之9及國民黨黨團提案第18條之9與委員謝一鳳等17人提案第18條之9同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第18條之9與委員除第三項第二行改為瘦數配偶一方與委員陳靜惠等20人提案同"},{"start":14039.68,"end":14067.258,"text":"委員謝依鳳等17人提案第18條之10代孕者經人工生殖手術懷孕後經診斷或證明胎兒有嚴重遺傳性疾病或有畸形發育之餘者或有優生保健法第9條第1項第3款第6款前世之遺者得施行人工流產委員陳金惠等20人提案第18條之10"},{"start":14069.721,"end":14086.5,"text":"待孕经人工生殖手术怀孕后与下列状况的施行人工生殖1经诊断或证明胎儿有严重遗传性疾病或有畸形发育之余者且经待孕者与手术配偶双方同意施行人工流产者"},{"start":14087.36,"end":14107.752,"text":"二代孕者有優生保健法第九條第一項第三款第六款情事之一者得施行人工流產前項第一款代孕者與受贖者配偶雙方就施行人工流產之主張欲有分期時之處理應事先續名於代孕契約中為王玉明等18人提案第18條之十"},{"start":14111.522,"end":14132.57,"text":"除第2項第1行修改為代孕者與瘦瘦夫妻與委員陳金輝等20人提案同談民眾黨黨團提案第18條之時與委員陳金輝等20人提案同國民黨黨團提案第18條之時與委員王玉明等18人提案同"},{"start":14135.922,"end":14158.49,"text":"行政院提案第23條人工生殖機構依第10條第二項第11條第二項第12條第二項第14條第三項第15條第二項及第19條第一項所為之紀錄因醫醫療法有關病例之規定製作保存及管理文謝一鳳等17人提案第26條"},{"start":14161.601,"end":14181.116,"text":"第二行改為頓號第十八條之二第三項第四項予以現行法同委員陳經蕙等二十人提案第二十六條第二行頓號第十八條之二第三項第四項及第十八條之八予以現行法同委員陳培宇等十八人提案第二十六條"},{"start":14182.937,"end":14202.221,"text":"第一行改為人工生殖機構一第三行改為所為之記錄第四行製作後增加盾號保存及辦理其他相關事項與現行法同委員王玉明等18人提案第26條台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":14205.302,"end":14219.854,"text":"提案第26條國民黨黨團提案第26條軍委員陳金輝等20人提案同行政院提案第24條人工升職機構因向中央主管機關通報下列事項並由中央主管機關建立人工升職"},{"start":14221.275,"end":14240.811,"text":"資料庫管理之一第十條第一項第十一條第一項第二款規定實施之檢查及評估二一第十二條第二項規定捐贈人之相關資訊三一第十九條規定實施之人工升值四一第二十九條"},{"start":14242.832,"end":14264.94,"text":"至第31條及第32條第三項規定所為之銷毀物每年度受訴人次成功率不均因性別分析所採行之人工生殖技術及其他相關事項中央主管機關應定期公布前項第五款之統計資料第一項通報之期限內容格式流程及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":14266.195,"end":14287.891,"text":"文謝一鳳等17人提案第27條第一款第一行修改為頓號第18條之二第一項規定施行之檢查及評估及第二項規定之次數予以現行法同委員陳清惠等20人提案第27條第一款修改為"},{"start":14289.89,"end":14306.071,"text":"頓豪第十八條之二第一項第三行及第十八條之二規定之次數予以現行法同文成培語等十八人提案第二十七條第一項第一行中央主管機關通報下列四項"},{"start":14309.127,"end":14333.163,"text":"第五款修改第二行修改為遁號性別分析同時增列第二項中央主管機關應定期公佈前項第五款之統計資料第三項第一行第一項通報之期限第三行由中央主管機關定之於同線刑法為王玉敏等18人提案第二七條國民黨黨團提案第二七條"},{"start":14334.758,"end":14358.124,"text":"及臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第二十七條 軍委委員謝一鳳等十七人提案同行政院提案第二十五條 人工生殖機構應指定專人負責前條第一項之通報事項 委員陳培宇等十八人提案第二十八條 與行政院提案第二十五條同"},{"start":14359.611,"end":14385.382,"text":"行政院提案第26條人工生殖機構及其所屬人員因執行業務之稀或持有、受贖配偶、受贖未婚女性、捐贈人及人工生殖子女隱私資訊因於保密不得無故洩漏委員陳珮宇等18人提案第29條之一人工生殖機構及其所屬人員因執行業務之稀或持有他人隱私資訊因於保密不得無故洩漏"},{"start":14388.905,"end":14394.472,"text":"好 謝謝醫師人員很辛苦那我們現在休息用餐下午兩點半繼續開會宣讀接續的條文好 謝謝對對對兩點半好 謝謝"},{"start":21746.906,"end":21765.088,"text":"好 這個下午繼續開會那請議事人員接續宣讀行政院版第四章章明以及以下條文謝謝行政院提案第四章章明與現行法同行政院提案第二十七條"},{"start":21766.638,"end":21790.672,"text":"第二行修正及追蹤其使用情形與現行法同委員陳培宇等18人提案第19條第二行或追蹤其使用情形與現行法同行政院提案第28條第三行同意者逗號與現行法同行政院提案第29條"},{"start":21794.318,"end":21821.83,"text":"第一款第一行提供女性受贖者完成活產一次但同一捐贈來源形式形成之冷凍胚胎用於同一對受贖配偶或同一受贖未婚女性不在此限同時刪除現行法第二之四項予以現行法同委員陳金輝等二十人提案第二十一條第一款提供受贖者受贖配偶"},{"start":21823.083,"end":21852.03,"text":"第二項第一行受訴配偶第三項第一行受訴配偶第一款受訴配偶第二款但經受訴配偶雙方之書面同意得依照其同意延長保存期限第三款受訴配偶第四項第五行及第六行都修正為受訴配偶第五項第二行修正為受訴配偶予以現行法同為黃婕等二十二人提案第二十一條"},{"start":21856.325,"end":21883.989,"text":"第一款修正為提供受訴者頓耗受訴配偶第二項第一行修正為受訴者頓耗受訴配偶增列第三項動亂下列情形之一者人工生殖機構因與銷毀一動亂者要求銷毀二動亂者死亡三保存於十年但經動亂者之書面同意得以其同意延長期限保存第四項第一行受訴者頓耗受訴配偶"},{"start":21887.389,"end":21914.66,"text":"第三款受訴者登號受訴配偶第五項第二行登號動亂第五行受訴者登號受訴配偶第七行受訴者登號受訴配偶登號動亂者第六項第二行受訴者登號受訴配偶予以現行法同委員林一景等19人提案第21條第一款"},{"start":21915.256,"end":21939.46,"text":"提供受訴者第二項受訴者第三項受訴者第一款受訴者第三款受訴者第四項第五行受訴者第六行受訴者第五項第二行修正受訴者欲現行法同"},{"start":21948.103,"end":21974.148,"text":"文成配遇等18人提案第21條第一款提供女性授受者第二行但同一捐贈來源形成之冷凍胚胎用於同一對授受配偶或同一位授受未婚女性不在此限第二項第一行授受配偶或授受未婚女性第三款第三行逗號但不得保存於40年第三項第一行授受配偶或授受未婚女性"},{"start":21977.62,"end":21998.858,"text":"第一款知悉受贖配偶之婚姻關係無效撤銷離婚或一方死亡二保存於十年但經胚胎所有人之同意得醫其同意延長期限保存其保存期限為於四十年三知悉受贖配偶或受贖未婚女性放棄施行人工生殖第四款知悉受贖未婚女性死亡"},{"start":21999.659,"end":22017.324,"text":"第四項 第一行 歇業前應通知捐贈人並取得其同意第四行 受訴配偶受訴未婚女性第六行 應通知受訴配偶遁號受訴未婚女性並取得其同意後"},{"start":22021.892,"end":22048.083,"text":"第七行其余所保存之生殖细胞或胚胎因与销毁第五项第二行瘦素配偶或瘦素未婚女性并包经中央主管机关予以现行法同为犯云等16人提案第21条第一款提供瘦素者或瘦素配偶第二项第一行瘦素者或瘦素配偶第三项第一行瘦素者或瘦素配偶第一款"},{"start":22049.648,"end":22076.275,"text":"受訴配偶 第三款受訴者或受訴配偶第四項第三行受訴者或受訴配偶第六行受訴者或受訴配偶第五項第二行受訴者或受訴配偶予以現行法同委員林楚英等18人提案第21條第一款提供受訴配偶第二項第一行受訴配偶第三項第一行第一款第三款都改為受訴配偶"},{"start":22079.775,"end":22108.985,"text":"第4項第5行及第6行都改為受訴配偶第5項第2行也改為受訴配偶予以現行法同委員黃秀芳等18人提案第21條第一款第一行受訴夫妻或受訴者第二項第一行第三項第一行及第三款以及第4項第5行第7行均改為夫妻或受訴者"},{"start":22110.356,"end":22138.113,"text":"第五項第二行增列一個頓豪裕現行法同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第二十一條與委員陳金會等二十人提案同為您閱請的十七人提案第二十一條第一款提供瘦數人第二項第一第一行第三項第一行"},{"start":22139.622,"end":22166.558,"text":"均改為受訴人第一款改為受訴之已婚配偶第三款受訴人放棄施行人工生殖第四項第五行改為受訴人第六項改為經受訴人或受訴人及其配偶第五項第二行改為經捐贈人或受訴人或受訴人及其配偶予以現行法同為洪聖翰范雲等21人提案第21條第一項第二行"},{"start":22169.471,"end":22194.018,"text":"如有保存修正第二項第一行改為受訴配偶雙方當事人第三行如有保存因與銷毀第三項第一行改為受訴配偶雙方當事人第一款第三款均改為受訴配偶雙方當事人增列第四項無配偶受訴人之生殖細胞或為實施人工生殖形成之胚胎"},{"start":22194.744,"end":22223.757,"text":"有下列情形之一者人工生殖機構如有保存因與銷毀一 瘦素人要求銷毀二 瘦素人死亡三 保存於十年但生殖細胞經瘦素人之書面同意得依其同意延長期限保存第五項第五行瘦素人或瘦素配偶雙方當事人第七行瘦素人或瘦素配偶雙方當事人第四項第二行改為瘦素人或瘦素配偶雙方當事人予以現行法斷"},{"start":22228.735,"end":22254.708,"text":"委員寬恆等16人提案第21條第一款提供受訴者或受訴夫妻第二項第一行第三項第一行第三款均改為受訴者或受訴夫妻第三項第二款改為但經受訴者或受訴夫妻之書面同意得依其同意延長期限保存第四項第五行第六行"},{"start":22255.822,"end":22284.127,"text":"及第五項第二行均改為受訴者或受訴夫妻予以現行法同為無配一等十八人提案第二十一條第一款改為受訴者或受訴配偶第二項第一行第三項第一行第一款第四款第四項第五行第六行均改為"},{"start":22285.62,"end":22312.006,"text":"受訴者或受訴配偶第三項第二款改為受訴配偶司法院釋字第748號解釋施刑法第二條關係無效終止或撤銷或一方死亡第五項第二行改為受訴者或受訴配偶予以現行法同委員零數分等18人提案第21條第一款改為提供受訴配偶或未婚受訴女性"},{"start":22314.107,"end":22340.193,"text":"第二項第一行第三項第一行第三款均改為受訴配偶或未婚受訴女性第一款改為受訴配偶或撤銷離婚或一方死亡或依司法院釋字第七十八號解釋施行法終止關係第四項第一行改為人工生殖機構有歇業之規劃時應於一年前檢據後續處理"},{"start":22344.119,"end":22368.976,"text":"計劃書報主管機關核可後使得為之第7行改為瘦素配偶或未婚瘦素女性第9行同樣第5項第2行也改為瘦素配偶或未婚瘦素女性欲現行法同委員過於請等16人提案第21條第一款改為提供瘦素者第二項第一行第三款"},{"start":22370.868,"end":22399.017,"text":"第4項第5行第6行及第5項第2行均改為受訴者予以現行法同委員張雅琳的21人提案第1款改為提供受訴者或受訴配偶第2項第1行第3項第1行及第3款第4項第5行第6行第5項第2行均改為受訴者或受訴配偶"},{"start":22401.181,"end":22424.979,"text":"令第三項第一行改為提供受訴者或受訴配偶予以現行法同行政院提案第30條第一行修正為受訴配偶或受訴未婚女性予以現行法同行政院提案第31條第一行改為受訴配偶或受訴未婚女性"},{"start":22428.072,"end":22456.578,"text":"第1款修正為知悉婚姻無效撤銷離婚或一方死亡2知悉女同性雙方關係無效撤銷終止或一方死亡3知悉受訴未婚女性死亡4保存於10年或經受訴配偶或受訴未婚女性同意延長保存期限保存於15年5知悉受訴配偶或受訴未婚女性放棄實施人工生殖預限刑法通行政院提案第32條"},{"start":22458.976,"end":22480.627,"text":"第二行改為應通知捐贈人取得其同意後得將第二項改為人工生殖機構歇業前應通知瘦素配偶或瘦素未婚女性取得其同意後得將生殖細胞或胚胎轉由其他人工生殖機構繼續保存"},{"start":22482.642,"end":22508.536,"text":"第三項改為前二項規定外第二行改為胚胎逗號予以現行法同行政院提案第三十三條依第二十九條至第三十一條與前條第三項規定應與銷毀之生殖細胞及胚胎人工生殖機構與取得捐贈人瘦數配偶或瘦數未婚女性同一病報經中央主管機關核准者得提供研究使用"},{"start":22533.928,"end":22560.302,"text":"行政院提案第五章人工生子子女之地位第三十五條 受訴配偶之一方與婚姻或女同性雙方關係存續中經他方同意後以該受訴配偶一方之卵子與第三人捐贈之精子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女前項同意不得與受訴配偶受訴後撤銷第一項情形不適用民法第1067條規定委員陳金輝等二十人提案第二十三條"},{"start":22561.443,"end":22590.424,"text":"於婚姻關係程序中經配偶一方同意後與受贈配偶一方捐贈之精子或卵子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女修正第二項第二句夫為其配偶倒數第二句為自子女出生之日期滿兩年之日期滿兩年予以現行法同前項情形其配偶能證明其同意吸收詐欺或脅迫者得於發現被詐欺或脅迫終止後六個月內提起否認之訴但受詐欺者"},{"start":22591.184,"end":22611.855,"text":"自子女出生之日起满两年不得为之民法第1067条规定于本条情形不适用之委员黄阶棱22人提案第23条修正第一项首二句为于婚姻关系程序中经配偶之一方同意后修正第二项文字夫为配偶之一方予以现行法同"},{"start":22612.735,"end":22631.09,"text":"委員01金等19人提案第23條修正第一項如下與婚姻關係或司法院釋字第748號解釋施行法關係程序中金配偶之一方同意後與他人捐贈之金子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女予與委員黃潔等22人提案同"},{"start":22631.69,"end":22659.826,"text":"委員陳培鈺等十八人提案第二十三條受訴配偶與婚姻關係程序中經他方同意後以該受訴配偶一方之卵子與第三人捐贈之精子受胎所生子女視為受訴配偶他方之婚生子女民法第九十二條及民法第一千零六十七條規定與本條情形不適用之委員范雲等十六人提案第二十三條修正第一項文字妻為受訴配偶夫為配偶之一方修正第二項文字"},{"start":22660.286,"end":22674.696,"text":"夫為同意之一方予以現行法同委員林楚英等時發言提案第23條修正第一項如下於婚姻關係程序中經配偶一方同意後與受贈配偶一方捐贈之金子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女"},{"start":22675.296,"end":22692.754,"text":"第二項同委員范雲等16人提案第三項同線刑法台灣民眾黨黨團提案第23條修正第一項如下於永久結合關係程序中經受訴配偶一方同意後與他人捐贈之精子或卵子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女"},{"start":22693.414,"end":22714.38,"text":"修正第二項文字敷為 受訴配偶他方予以先行法同委員林月琴等17人提案第23條受訴人與婚姻婚姻關係或依司法院釋字第748號解釋施行法第二條成立之關係程序中與他人捐贈之精子受胎所生子女視為受訴人及其配偶之婚生子女"},{"start":22715.16,"end":22731.719,"text":"民法第1067條規定與本條情形不適用之委員洪生和范雲等21人提案第23條受訴人與婚姻關係存續中經受訴人配偶同意後與他人捐贈之精子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女"},{"start":22732.299,"end":22751.561,"text":"修正第二項第二句為受訴人配偶能證明其同意吸受詐欺或脅迫者予以現行法同委員嚴寬衡等十六人提案第二十三條修正第一項如下於婚姻關係程序中經配偶同意後與捐贈人之精子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女"},{"start":22752.142,"end":22776.323,"text":"修正第二項文字夫為配偶予以現行法同委員吳佩儀等18人提案第23條第一項如下於婚姻關係程序中經配偶之一方同意後與他人捐贈之親子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女修正第二項文字夫為同意一方予以現行法同委員林淑芬等18人提案第23條修正第一項如下"},{"start":22778.385,"end":22804.316,"text":"受訴配偶與婚姻關係或依司法院釋字第748號解釋施行法第二條成立之關係程序中經配偶之一方同意後他方與他人捐贈之親子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女修正第二項文字夫為同意之一方予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等16人提案第23條受訴者與婚姻關係程序中經配偶同意後"},{"start":22804.876,"end":22831.133,"text":"與他人捐贈之精子或卵子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女修正第二項文字夫為配偶予以現行法同委員張雅玲等21人提案第23條修正第一項如下配偶之一方於婚姻關係程序中經配偶另一方同意後與他人捐贈之精子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女修正文字夫為配偶另一方予以現行法同"},{"start":22831.733,"end":22854.993,"text":"行政院提案第36條 妻於婚姻關係程序中同意以夫之精子與第三人捐贈之卵子由妻受胎所生子女 視為婚生子女前項同意不得於妻受訴後撤銷委員陳佩玉等18人提案第24條受訴配偶女方於婚姻關係程序中同意以受訴配偶男方之精子與他人捐贈之卵子"},{"start":22855.333,"end":22877.924,"text":"之卵子受胎所生子女 視為受數配偶男方之婚生子女民法第92條規定 與本條情形不適用之台灣民眾黨黨團提案第24條修正第一項如下 與永久結合關係程序中經受數配偶一方同意後與他人捐贈之精子或卵子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女"},{"start":22878.584,"end":22896.585,"text":"修正第二項文字7為瘦數配偶一方予以先行法同委員洪森和范雲等21人提案第24條修正文字7為瘦數人修正文字夫為瘦數人配偶予以先行法同委員顏寬恆等16人提案第24條修正第一項如下"},{"start":22897.205,"end":22916.741,"text":"於婚姻關係程序中同意以配偶之精子與捐贈人之卵子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女修正第二項文字妻為配偶予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等16人提案第24條刪除委員張雅玲等21人提案第24條修正第一項如下"},{"start":22917.401,"end":22944.782,"text":"配偶之一方於婚姻關係程序中同意以配偶另一方之精子與他人捐贈之卵子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女修正文字7為配偶之一方予以現行法同行政院提案第37條女同性雙方之一方與女同性雙方關係程序中同意以他方之卵子與第三人捐贈之精子受胎所生子女視為受贖配偶雙方之婚生子女"},{"start":22945.362,"end":22953.452,"text":"前項同意不得與女同性雙方之一方受訴後撤銷第一項情形不適用民法第1067條規定委員陳敬輝等二十人提案"},{"start":22957.921,"end":22975.38,"text":"新增第十一條之二女同性授受配偶之一方與婚姻關係程序中同意以配偶他方之卵子與第三人捐贈之精子受胎所生子女視為婚生子女委員參配於等十八人提案第二十四條之一女同性授受女同性"},{"start":22975.68,"end":23001.333,"text":"女同性授受配偶之一方與婚姻關係程序中同意以授受配偶他方之卵子與第三人捐贈之精子由女同性授受配偶之一方受胎所生子女視為授受配偶他方之婚生子女民法第92條規定與本條情形不適用之行政院提案第38條授受未婚女性依本法實施人工生子所生子女視為婚生子女"},{"start":23001.853,"end":23015.56,"text":"前項情形不適用民法第1067條規定違原參配欲等18人提案第24條之二授訴未婚女性依第16條第一項規定所生子女及捐贈人間不適用民法第1067條規定民法第92條規定於前項情形不適用之"},{"start":23020.723,"end":23047.743,"text":"委員黃婕等22人提案新增第24條之一生殖細胞捐贈人對依本法所生之子女不適用民法第1065條委員林月琴等17人提案新增第24條之一人工生殖子女非為生殖細胞捐贈者之子女並且不為民法第1065條第一項之適用行政院提案第39條授處配偶一方與婚姻或女童性雙方關係程序中"},{"start":23048.243,"end":23069.43,"text":"實施人工生殖受胎後其婚姻或女同性雙方關係有無效撤銷之情形該受胎所生子女視為婚生子女委員陳金輝等20人委員黃潔等22人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第25條受訴配偶之一方受胎後如發現有婚姻撤銷無效之情形"},{"start":23070.01,"end":23095.816,"text":"其分娩所生子女視為受訴配偶之婚生子女委員林益勤等19人提案第25條受訴者受胎後如發現有婚姻撤銷無效之情形其分娩所生子女視為配偶雙方之婚生子女委員陳佩玉等18人提案第25條受訴配偶一方受胎後其有婚姻關係撤銷無效之情形因分娩所生子女視為受訴夫妻之婚生子女"},{"start":23096.596,"end":23123.449,"text":"委員范雲等16人提案第25條受訴配偶之一方受胎後如發現有婚姻撤銷無效之情形其分娩所生子女視為受訴配偶雙方之婚生子女委員林楚英等18人提案第25條修正守據為受訴配偶一方受胎後予與委員陳金輝等20人提案同委員林月琴等17人提案第25條受訴人受胎後如發現有婚姻或依司法事"},{"start":23124.609,"end":23150.507,"text":"司法院釋字第748號解釋施行法第二條成立之關係撤銷無效之情形其分娩所生子女視為受訴之已婚配偶之婚生子女委員洪森和范雲等21人提案第25條受訴人受胎後如發現有婚姻撤銷無效之情形其分娩所生子女視為受訴配偶雙方當事人之婚生子女委員顏寬恒等16人提案"},{"start":23152.25,"end":23179.308,"text":"第二十五條 守據為受胎後予以現行法同委員吳佩儀等十八人提案第二十五條 受處配偶受胎後如發現有婚姻撤銷無效之情形其分娩所生子女視為受處配偶雙方之婚生子女委員林淑芬等十八人提案第二十五條 受處配偶受胎後如發現有婚姻撤銷無效之情形或依司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法有第八九條之情形"},{"start":23179.768,"end":23208.774,"text":"其分免所生子女視為受訴配偶雙方之婚生子女委員郭玉琴等16人提案第25條已婚受訴者受胎後如發現有婚姻撤銷無效之情形其分免所生子女視為受訴者與其配偶之婚生子女委員張雅玲等21人提案第25條配偶之一方受胎後如發現有婚姻撤銷無效之情形其分免所生子女視為受訴配偶之婚生子女"},{"start":23209.514,"end":23229.289,"text":"行政院提案第六章人工生殖子女之血源認知權第四十條人工生殖子女使用第三人捐贈之生殖細胞所生者有知悉該捐贈人之身高、血型、膚色及國籍之權利、瘦素配偶或瘦素未婚女性得於適當時期告知子女"},{"start":23229.949,"end":23252.023,"text":"第41條人工生殖子女或其法定代理人得向中央主管機關申請查詢下列事項一人工生殖子女與其結婚之對象有無違反民法第983條規定之餘二人工生殖子女與其結婚登記之對象有無違反司法院釋字第748號解釋施行法第5條規定之餘"},{"start":23253.604,"end":23270.548,"text":"三 人工生殖子女與其收養人或被收養人有無違反民法第1073條之一規定之餘四 其他有無違反法規關於一定親屬關係限制規定之餘使用第三人捐贈生殖細胞所生殖人工生殖子女"},{"start":23271.008,"end":23298.285,"text":"有中央主管机关公告之重大遗传性疾病或有器官移植需要时人工生殖子女或其法定代理人得基于医疗需求向中央主管机关查询其生殖细胞捐赠人之姓名及联络方法依前项规定查询之捐赠人已于本法中华民国圈年圈月圈日修正之条文施行后捐赠生殖细胞者为限但取得捐赠人之同意者不在此限"},{"start":23299.065,"end":23325.155,"text":"委員黃婕等22人提案第29條新增第二項如下人工生殖子女年滿18歲得經生殖細胞捐贈者同意或部分同意查閱捐贈人之姓名聯絡方式修正第三項所三字為前兩項予以現行法同委員陳佩玉等18人提案第29條經由第三人捐贈生殖細胞所出生之人工生殖子女"},{"start":23325.595,"end":23347.117,"text":"有窒息其捐贈人種族膚色及血型之權利人工生殖子女或其法定代理人得向中央主管機關申請查詢下列事項一 人工生殖子女之結婚有無違反民法第983條規定二 人工生殖子女之結婚有無違反司法院士自第748號解釋施行法第5條規定"},{"start":23350.003,"end":23377.968,"text":"三 人工生殖子女之收養或出養有無違反民法第1073條之一規定四 其他有無違反法規關於一定親屬關係之限制規定經由第三人捐贈生殖細胞所出生之人工生殖子女有中央主管機關公告之重大遺傳性疾病或器官移植時人工生殖子女或其法定代理人得基於醫療需求向中央主管機關查詢其生殖細胞捐贈人之辨識資訊"},{"start":23379.628,"end":23396.003,"text":"一 前項查詢之捐贈人以本法修正制條文施行後捐贈生殖細胞者為限但經人工生殖機構向捐贈人查詢並取得同意者不在此限第二項是前項查詢之適用範圍查詢程序"},{"start":23396.723,"end":23415.719,"text":"內容及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員王玉明等18人提案第29條第一項增列第4款如下4.人工生殖子女有查證身世之需求予以現行法通委員林月琴等17人提案第29條新增第13項如下"},{"start":23416.44,"end":23437.091,"text":"人工生殖子女有知道其受孕方法及生殖細胞捐贈者身份之權人工生殖子女年滿18歲本人得向主管機關申請查詢原第三項移至第四項並修正守據為第二項第三項查詢之適用範圍予以現行法同委員洪森和范雲等21人提案第29條"},{"start":23438.132,"end":23453.137,"text":"人工生殖子女如有需求得知生殖細胞捐贈者之相關資訊得以書面提出申請向主管機關查詢前項之查詢範圍以捐贈者同意揭露之範圍或違反法規限制一定親屬範圍規定者為限"},{"start":23455.638,"end":23479.853,"text":"第一項查詢之適用範圍查詢程序內容及其他應遵行事項之辦法由主管機關定之委員郭育晴等16人提案第29條人工生殖子女有知道其受孕方法及生殖細胞捐贈者客觀條件之權人工生殖子女或其法定代理人亦有下列情形之一者得向主管機關申請查詢"},{"start":23480.814,"end":23508.553,"text":"一 結婚對象有違反民法第983條規定之餘時二 被收養人有違反民法第1073條之一規定之餘時三 違反其他法規關於限制一定親屬範圍規定之餘時人工生殖子女年滿18歲本人得向主管機關申請查詢第一項至第三項查詢之適用範圍查詢程序內容及其他應遵行事項之辦法由主管機關定之行政院提案第42條"},{"start":23509.614,"end":23531.849,"text":"本法中華民國全年全月全日修正之條文施行後使用第三人捐贈生殖細胞所生之人工生殖子女於成年後向中央主管機關申請查詢第40條規定以外之捐贈人資料中央主管機關應取得捐贈人之同意使得提供中央主管機關受理前項申請"},{"start":23532.509,"end":23550.78,"text":"以依第24條第一項規定建立之人工生殖資料庫所在捐贈人資料通知捐贈人於通知後60日內未取得捐贈人同意或未獲回覆者中央主管機關得否准該人工生殖子女之申請"},{"start":23552.742,"end":23564.994,"text":"第43條第41條及前條第一項查詢之適用範圍查詢程序內容及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商中央戶鎮主管機關定之"},{"start":23567.113,"end":23596.071,"text":"第七章罰則第四十四條有下列情形之一者處刑未能五年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣一百五十萬元以下罰金一違反第二十條第一項親屬間精子與卵子不得結合之規定二違反第二十一條第一款規定使用供研究用途之生殖細胞或胚胎三違反第二十一條第二款規定以無性生殖方式實施人工生殖第四十五條意圖盈利從事生殖細胞胚胎之買賣或居間者處三年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":23596.451,"end":23614.549,"text":"居易得併科新臺幣三新臺幣二十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰金第四十六條以詐欺或脅迫之方式使人為第三十五條第一項第三十六條第一項或第三十七條第一項之同意者處三年以下有期徒刑本條之罪須告訴乃論第四十七條"},{"start":23615.109,"end":23641.23,"text":"有下列情形之一者處心台幣二十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還一 醫療機構違反第九條第一項規定未經中央主管機關許可為人工生殖機構實施人工生殖接受生殖細胞之捐贈儲存或提供二 人工生殖機構違反第十三條第一項或未符合同條第二項規定將同意捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞同時先後或繼續提供其他瘦素配偶或瘦素未婚女性使用"},{"start":23641.69,"end":23661.143,"text":"三人工生殖機構違反第十三條第三項前段規定未停止提供使用同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞四人工生殖機構違反第十三條第四項規定與同一女性受術者之同一治療周期內植入由不同捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞所形成之胚胎五人工生殖機構違反第十八條第一項規定應受"},{"start":23662.924,"end":23683.094,"text":"因受數配偶任一方或受數未婚女性要求使用特定捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞或應捐贈人要求將其捐贈之生殖細胞使用於特定受數配偶或受數未婚女性 六 人工生殖機構或未經許可為人工生殖機構之醫療機構違反第二十一條第三項第三款規定為"},{"start":23686.612,"end":23709.009,"text":"為瘦素配偶或瘦素未婚女性選擇胚胎性別 七 人工生殖機構或未經許可為人工生殖機構之醫療機構違反第21條第4款規定為精卵護證 八 人工生殖機構或未經許可為人工生殖機構之醫療機構違反第21條第5款規定使用培育超過7日之胚胎"},{"start":23709.449,"end":23738.987,"text":"九 人工生殖機構或未經許可為人工生殖機構之醫療機構違反第二十一條第六款規定每次植入五個以上胚胎 十 人工生殖機構或未經許可為人工生殖機構之醫療機構違反第二十一條第七款規定使用混合經驗 十一 人工機構或未經許可為人工生殖機構之醫療機構違反第二十一條第八款規定使用境外輸入之捐贈生殖細胞第四十八條有下列情形之一者"},{"start":23739.547,"end":23766.615,"text":"處新臺幣十萬元以上五十萬元以下罰還一夫妻女同性雙方或未婚女性一第八條第一項規定接受評估時為不實陳述或提供不實資料二專業機構違反第八條第三項所定辦法中有關評估人員之資格評估之內容方式程序評估紀錄之製作或保存方式之規定三人工生殖機構與捐贈人為符合第十一條第一項各款規定接受其捐贈生殖細胞"},{"start":23768.456,"end":23797.291,"text":"四 人工生殖機構與夫妻或女同性雙方未符合第十四條第一項各款規定或未婚女性未符合第十五條第一項各款規定實施人工生殖五 人工生殖機構違反第三十三條規定將生殖細胞或胚胎提供研究使用六 人工生殖機構違反第三十四條規定將生殖細胞或胚胎為人工生殖以外之用途委員謝一鳳等十七人委員陳金輝等二十人委員王玉敏等十八人國民黨黨團提案第三十三條"},{"start":23798.431,"end":23822.068,"text":"違反第六條第一項第二項第八條第一項第十一條第十八條之一第十八條之三第十八條之六第十八條之七第一項或依第三項所定辦法規定者處心台幣十萬元以上五十萬元以下罰還委員黃秀芳等十八人提案第三十三條違反第六條第一項第二項第八條第一項第十一條或第十一條之一規定者處心台幣十萬元以上五十萬元以下罰還台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三十三條"},{"start":23822.828,"end":23846.595,"text":"違反第六條第一項第二項第八條第一項第十一條第十八條之一第十八條之三第十八條之六第十八條之七規定者儲新台幣十萬元以上五十萬元以下罰還委員林淑芬等十八人提案第三十三條違反第六條第一項第二項第三項第八條第一項或第十一條規定者儲新台幣十萬元以上五十萬元以下罰還行政院提案第四十九條有下列情形之一者儲新台幣五萬元以上二十五萬元以下罰還"},{"start":23847.515,"end":23873.432,"text":"一 人工生殖機構違反第九條第二項鎖定辦法中有關管理制規定二 人工生殖機構違反第十一條第四項規定接受生殖細胞之捐贈三 人工生殖機構違依第十二條第一項規定向捐贈人說明相關權利義務或醫療風險或為經捐贈人簽據書面同意而接受生殖細胞之捐贈四 人工生殖機構違反第十四條第三項或第十五條第二項規定為製作記錄或為保存證明文件影本"},{"start":23873.852,"end":23888.598,"text":"五 人工生殖機構衛醫第十六條第一項規定於每次實施人工生殖機構手術前向受術配偶雙方或受術未婚女性說明該項各款所定式下或施術同意書未由受術配偶雙方或受術未婚女性親自簽據"},{"start":23890.058,"end":23905.298,"text":"或未取得第十六條第四項經公正之書面同意而實施人工生殖六人工生殖機構違反第十七條第一項規定未取得女性受贖者受贖配偶男方或捐贈能親自簽據之手術同意書或麻醉同意書而實施手術"},{"start":23906.099,"end":23934.906,"text":"七 人工生殖機構違反第十七條第二項規定為取得女性受贖者或受贖配偶男方親自簽據之同意書而實施侵入性檢查或治療八 人工生殖機構違反第十九條第二項規定將捐贈人之身份證明文件字號聯絡方法或在該人工生殖機構之病歷號碼提供與受贖配偶或受贖未婚女性九 人工生殖機構違議第二十條第二項前段規定查證捐贈人與受贖配偶或受贖未婚女性是否"},{"start":23936.367,"end":23961.11,"text":"據同條第一項鎖定親屬關係或違反第20條第二項後段規定鎖定辦法中有關查證之方式內容項目或程序之規定10 人工生殖機構違反第24條第三項鎖定辦法中有關內容之規定故意通報不實資料11 人工生殖機構或其所屬人員違反第26條規定無故洩漏受訴配偶任一方受訴未婚女性捐贈人或人工生殖子女之隱私資訊"},{"start":23963.177,"end":23983.873,"text":"十二 人工生殖機構違反第二十八條規定未經捐贈的事前書面同意將其生殖細胞轉證其他人工生殖機構十三 人工生殖機構違反第二十九條第三十條第三十一條或第三十二條第三項規定為銷毀生殖細胞或胚胎人工生殖機構為依第二十四條第一項規定應通報事項通報中央主管機關"},{"start":23984.694,"end":24011.088,"text":"或違反同條第三項所定辦法中有關通報之期限或內容之規定經中央主管機關令其限期改善藉其為改善者處新台幣五萬元以上二十五萬元以下罰還第一項第十三款之情形處以前項規定處罰外並得令其限期改善藉其為改善者按次處罰委員謝一鳳等十七人提案第三十四條修正第一項如下違反第七條第一項第八條第三項第九條第一項第十二條第十八條之二第一項第四款"},{"start":24011.548,"end":24026.113,"text":"第五款第十八條之八第一項第二十條第二十一條第二十二條或第二十七條第一項各款規定之一者儲新台幣五萬元以上二十五萬元以下罰還予以現行法同委員陳金輝等二十等委員王玉敏等十八人國民黨黨團提案第三十四條"},{"start":24026.893,"end":24052.882,"text":"除第一項守據為人工生殖機構違反第七條第一項莫具為處心台幣三萬元以上十五萬元以下罰還予以委員謝一鳳等十七人提案同委員王玉敏等十八人台灣民眾黨老團提案第三十四條修正第一項如下違反第七條第一項第八條第三項第九條第一項第十二條第十八條之二第一項第四款第六款第十八條之八第一項第二十條第二十一條第二十二條或第二十七條第一項各款規定之一者"},{"start":24053.742,"end":24062.728,"text":"儲新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰還第二項與現行法同委員零數分等18人提案第34條違反第7條第一項第8條第三項第9條第一項第9條之一第12條第20條第21條第21條之一第21條之二第22條或第27條第一項各款規定之一者儲新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰還"},{"start":24073.474,"end":24095.371,"text":"違反第二十一條第一項至第四項第二十一條之一第二十一條之二規定之一者除一前項規定處罰外並得限其命其改善與其未改善者得連續加重處罰行政院提案第五十條違反第九條第一項或第二十一條規定者其行為依依依施法規定一復懲戒委員謝一鳳等十七人委員陳金輝等二十人委員王玉敏等十八人臺灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團提案第三十五條"},{"start":24099.254,"end":24121.488,"text":"違反第六條第一項第二項第八條第一項第十條第十一條第十五條第十六條第十八條之一第十八條之六或第十八條之八規定者其行為依施並依依施法規定疑負懲戒委員黃秀芳等十八人提案第三十五條與文字第十一條之後增列頓號第十一條之一與現行法同委員林淑芬等十八人提案第三十五條違反第六條第一項第二項第三項第八條第一項"},{"start":24122.389,"end":24144.685,"text":"第十條第十一條第十五條或第十六條規定者其行為依施並依依施法規定一復懲戒行政院提案第五十一條人工生殖機構有下列情形之一者中央主管機關得廢止依第九條第一項規定所為之許可依經直轄市或縣市主管機關依第四十七條規定處罰二負責人受雇人或其他職業人員犯第十四第四十四條之罪經判刑確定"},{"start":24145.445,"end":24155.305,"text":"人工生殖機構違反第十一條第一項第四項第十四條第十五條第二十八條第三十三條或第三十四條規定者足以第四十八條第四十九條規定處罰外中央主管機關並得"},{"start":24157.049,"end":24174.972,"text":"並得限定其與一定期間停止實施人工生殖接受生殖細胞之捐贈儲存或提供人工生殖機構之許可經撤銷或依第一項規定經廢止者自撤銷或廢止之日期二年內不得再依第九條第一項規定申請許可委員林益勤等19人委員黃秀芳等18人提案第37條"},{"start":24176.173,"end":24195.165,"text":"與第二項文字第十一條之後增列頓號第十一條之一與現行法同委員林淑芬等十八人提案新增第三十七條之一醫療機構有下列情形之一者主管機關得廢止第六條第三項之許可依醫療機構之負責人受僱人或其他職業人員犯第三十條之罪經判刑確定二違反第二十二條第二項規定"},{"start":24195.725,"end":24195.745,"text":"醫療機構違反"},{"start":24213.549,"end":24234.524,"text":"廢止自日起二年內不得重新議第六條第三項規定申請許可行政院提案第五十二條本發所定罰還由直轄市或縣市主管機關處罰之第八章負責行政院委員謝一鳳等十七任委員陳金輝等二十任臺灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團委員顏寬恆等十六任提案第三十九條刪除繼續宣讀修正動議"},{"start":24236.929,"end":24248.062,"text":"第一條為健全人工生殖值發展保障人工生殖子女代理育母 瘦素配偶瘦素未婚女性與捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫理健康及經營家庭生活之權利特制定本法"},{"start":24249.298,"end":24276.625,"text":"第二條本法用詞定義如下一人工生殖指利用生殖醫療以非性交之人工授孕胚胎植入其相其植入其植入及其相關技術達到授孕生育目的之過程二生殖細胞指精子或卵子三授出配偶指接受人工生殖協助之夫妻或以依司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法第四條規定完成結婚登記之女性雙方當事人"},{"start":24277.385,"end":24302.4,"text":"四 受贖未婚女性 指接受人工生殖之無婚姻關係且無司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法第二條規定關係之女性五 胚胎 指受精卵分裂位於八州者六 捐贈人 指無償提供精子或卵子與受贖配偶或受其委託代孕以孕育其生產胎兒者或無償提供精子與受贖未婚女性孕育生產胎兒者"},{"start":24303.18,"end":24330.971,"text":"七 無性生殖 子妃經由精子及卵子之結合而利用單一體細胞培養產生後代之過程八 精卵護證 子二對瘦素配偶約定以一方瘦素配偶男方之精子與他方瘦素配偶女方之卵子結合九 代理孕母 子與瘦素配偶約定接受及胚胎植入子宮代為孕育及生產胎兒者十 代孕生殖 子以人工生殖方式對代理孕母施行孕育及生產胎兒之技術"},{"start":24331.551,"end":24352.548,"text":"十一 人工生殖機構只經主管機關許可得施行人工生殖相關業務之醫療機構及公益法人十二 代理服務機構職位受數配偶與代理育母提供協助簽訂代孕契約及相關服務之機構十三 代孕定型化契約代孕服務機構依本法擬定之定型化契約條款"},{"start":24353.749,"end":24369.632,"text":"作為受贖配偶委託代理孕母進行代孕生殖之書面契約內容之全部或一部14 代孕子女由代理孕母接受植入受贖配偶胚胎所生之人工生殖子女"},{"start":24370.032,"end":24373.133,"text":"第五條手續如下第七條第一項序文如下第八條"},{"start":24395.185,"end":24415.026,"text":"第二項手續如下 受訴配偶或受訴未婚女性在主管機關所定金額或價額內後段如下 其提供或負擔應為請人工生殖機構為之第三項如下 第一項第四款所定情形人工生殖機構應向主管機關查明後 使得接受捐贈與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同"},{"start":24417.228,"end":24446.411,"text":"第十條人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞不得提供二對以上瘦素配偶或二位以上女性瘦素者使用前項授贈之女性瘦素者未完成活產且已放棄人工生殖本人或其配偶死亡者同一捐贈人之生殖細胞得繼續提供其他瘦素配偶或瘦素未婚女性使用同一捐贈人捐贈之生殖細胞於提供一位女性瘦素者或代理孕母成功懷孕後應即停止提供使用"},{"start":24447.311,"end":24474.386,"text":"該女性受贖者或代理孕母完成活產者應及依第21條規定處理單依女性受贖者或代理孕母於同一治療週期內不得植入不同捐贈人生殖細胞所形成之胚胎女同性受贖配偶其一方以子宮孕育子女者得以己生之卵或配偶他方之卵子與第三人捐贈之精子施行人工生殖第11條第一項第二環守據如下"},{"start":24475.751,"end":24490.853,"text":"莫具如下莫具或依法完成結婚登記之女性同性配偶雙方當事人無法生育子女第三款 守具如下受術配偶一方或雙方具有健康之生殖細胞"},{"start":24492.452,"end":24518.639,"text":"第四款如下 四 經第七條所定之評估 任符合人工生殖子女最佳利益者 第二項 第三句如下 得報竟主管機關核准後 予以臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同 第十一條之一 未婚女性符合下列各款情形者 醫療機構使得為其實施人工生殖一 經依第七條規定實施檢查及評估結果 適合接受人工生殖者 二 得以其子宮懷孕"},{"start":24519.339,"end":24536.865,"text":"生產胎兒且具有健康卵子無需接受他人捐贈卵子者三 已滿18歲 其年滿45歲者需經生理檢查五 不適合懷孕或分娩之疾病或生理狀況四 經第七條所定之評估任符合人工生殖子女最佳利益者"},{"start":24537.685,"end":24560.091,"text":"第十二條 醫療機構實施人工生殖時應向瘦素配偶 瘦素未婚女性說明下列事項一 人工生殖之必要性二 人工生殖之施行方式三 人工生殖之成功率可能發生之併發症及危險四 其他可能替代治療方式五 剩餘剩餘生殖細胞胚胎之處置六 其他金主管機關指定之事項"},{"start":24561.572,"end":24581.17,"text":"醫療機構每次實施人工生殖前應取得受訴配偶雙方受訴未婚女性親自簽署失訴同意書後 使得為其施行人工生殖醫療機構實施前向人工生殖對於受訴配偶已接受第三人捐贈之生殖細胞方式實施者並應取得該受訴配偶非提供"},{"start":24581.83,"end":24600.058,"text":"生產 生殖細胞一方之書面同意 使得為之醫療機構實施人工生殖對於女童性瘦素配偶之一方接受他方之卵子與第三人捐贈之精子方式實施者並應取得女童性配偶雙方之書面同意 使得為之前二項之書面同意並應並經公證人公證"},{"start":24602.859,"end":24627.078,"text":"第三條醫療機構實施人工生殖不得應受數配不得應受數配偶或受數未婚女性要求使用特定人捐贈之生殖細胞接受捐贈生殖細胞不得應捐贈人要求用於特定之受數配偶或受數未婚女性醫療機構應將捐贈人之種族膚色及血型資料提供與受數配偶或受數未婚女性醫療機構就捐"},{"start":24629.86,"end":24655.961,"text":"證人身份應予保密及採取資訊安全防護措施依法提供病例複製本實 異同第十四條刪除第一款之文字 受訴者 頓號第四款如下是女性同性受訴配偶其卵子提供者與懷孕者之姓名予與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第一項同第十五條下列親屬間不得為生殖細胞之捐贈與結合"},{"start":24657.122,"end":24665.441,"text":"一直系血清二直系陰清三同性授受配偶之一方與他方之直系血清四私親等內旁系血清"},{"start":24666.863,"end":24686.941,"text":"前項親屬關係應由人工生殖機構查證之其查證方式項目程序女性授受者或授受配偶身份資料及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央機關令行會同中央護證主管機關定之因資料錯誤或缺漏致查證結果違反第一項規定者不適用第30條之規定"},{"start":24688.382,"end":24695.281,"text":"第十六條修正第二項守據文字胚胎植入之數量為胚胎植入數量予以臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同"},{"start":24699.926,"end":24721.629,"text":"第十八條 台灣民眾黨黨團提案刪除第三章之一 代孕升職之施行及保障第十八條之一 受訴配偶委託代孕升職應符合下列規定一 一方具有中華民國國籍並與我國設有戶籍二 一方每年與我國居住一百八十三日以上三 一方未滿五十歲"},{"start":24722.71,"end":24749.686,"text":"四 雙方符合第十一條規定五 雙方符合下列情形之一一 妻無子宮或子宮先天性異常無法懷孕二 妻嬰免疫疾病或其他類似情形難以孕育子女三 妻嬰懷孕或生產有嚴重危及生命之餘四 瘦數配偶雙方均為女性時雙方均有第一目 第二目或第三目情形之一者"},{"start":24750.266,"end":24776.565,"text":"受贖配偶委託代孕生殖需他人捐贈精子或卵子時不得使用代理孕母之卵子代理孕母有配偶時不得使用其配偶之精子受贖配偶應經心理經濟能力家庭及生活狀況評估適合委託代孕及養育子女受贖配偶應委由代孕服務機構協助辦理代孕相關服務代孕服務機構得向受贖配偶收取必要費用"},{"start":24779.417,"end":24795.823,"text":"第十八條之二代理孕母於接受代孕升職前應符合下列各款條件一具有中華民國國籍與我國社有戶籍每年與我國居住一百八十三日以上之二十歲以上且未滿四十歲女性二"},{"start":24796.603,"end":24822.692,"text":"無認成未滿37週陰道生產 頗負產或重大併發症之生產經驗三 代理育母及其配偶經心理經濟能力家庭及生活狀況評估適合代孕四 經生理檢查無不適合懷孕或生產之疾病五 代理育母有配偶者其配偶經生理檢查無影響胎兒健康之傳染性疾病代理育母成為代孕生殖時其活產"},{"start":24823.872,"end":24852.139,"text":"且活產二次者不得再為代孕升值第一項第三款及前條第三項評估應由代孕服務機構為之並製作記錄其記錄內容與保存評估者資格評估方式程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第一項第四款第五款之檢查由人工升值機構為之並應製作記錄其記錄內容及通報方式於第二十七條第三項所定辦法內定之"},{"start":24853.973,"end":24880.534,"text":"第十八條之三 受訴配偶委託代理孕母代孕前應與代理孕母共同經專業諮詢後簽訂代孕契約代孕契約應由執行專業諮詢之人員簽章並經公證 實為成立其契約變更應經公證前項專業諮詢應包括對受訴配偶及代理孕母之心理生理經濟能力家庭及生活狀況可能產生之影響及風險"},{"start":24881.835,"end":24905.583,"text":"代理運母有配偶時第一項接受專業諮詢及簽訂代孕契約之當事人應包括該配偶第一項專業諮詢人員之資格專業諮詢之範圍與方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法由主管機關定之第一項代孕契約之定例契約當事人應分別委任律師為之代孕契約之定例或變更之公正應由契約當事人親自到場"},{"start":24907.574,"end":24935.144,"text":"第十八條之四 代孕契約之內容應保障代理孕母之下列權益一 醫療資訊及生活不受干擾之隱私二 代孕生殖期間對健康及身體相關事項之自主決定三 生產後二年內得探視代孕子女四 於植入瘦素配偶胚胎前同意週期懷孕失敗或有依優生保健法第九條第一項規定得施行人工流產時有終止契約之權利"},{"start":24937.125,"end":24955.578,"text":"且受贖配偶不得向代理育母及其配偶請求損害賠償五 據獨立委任或選任律師之權利費用由受贖配偶支付但其費用以相當金額為限六 與同一週期懷孕事敗或流產者應有適當休息期間並經醫師專業評估後 使得進入下一治療週期"},{"start":24960.041,"end":24974.588,"text":"受贖配偶與代理孕母植入受贖配偶胚胎後懷孕期間不得終止代孕契約民法第549條規定不適用之第三項與台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三項同第四至第六項如下"},{"start":24975.889,"end":24996.098,"text":"主管機關公告應記載之事項雖未記載於定型化契約仍構成契約之內容違反主管機關公告之待運定型化契約不得記載事項其定型化契約條款無效該定型化契約中之定型化契約條款全部或一部無效或不構成契約內容之一部者"},{"start":24996.818,"end":25011.04,"text":"除去該部分契約亦可成立者該契約之其他部分人為有效但對當事人之一方顯示公平者該契約全部無效定型化契約條款有疑義時因為有利於代理孕母之解釋"},{"start":25014.878,"end":25030.311,"text":"第十八條之五代理育母之代孕以無償為之代孕契約不得約定本條鎖定費用以外之任何報酬費用或其他利益受贖配偶應與主管機關鎖定金額或價額內提供代理育母營養費或營養品且負擔"},{"start":25033.374,"end":25047.794,"text":"其必要之檢查諮詢醫療照護委任律師保險心理諮商交通工時損失產後護理及其他相關費用並存入保證金於第四項之專戶擔保相關費用之支付依前項規定鎖定金額價"},{"start":25050.256,"end":25076.609,"text":"價額及保證金由主管機關會商相關機關機構及婦女兒童少年權益保障與其他相關法人團體定資受贖配偶應與代理孕母植入胚胎前與我國金融機構開立專戶將第二項鎖定費用存入專戶並應專款專用其收支或帳號處理及帳號處理應委託代孕服務機構辦理代理孕母應於"},{"start":25077.489,"end":25103.428,"text":"代孕契約成立後及施術之前投保人壽保險及健康保險並以代理孕母為要保人及被保險人且除申僱保險經受益人應以代理孕母之配偶或二親等內之血親為線外其餘保險經應以代理孕母本人為受益人代理孕母完成投保前項保險手續後 使得執行代孕升職"},{"start":25105.154,"end":25122.756,"text":"第十八條之六財團法人或公益社團法人得向主管機關申請許可為代孕服務機構第二項守據如下代孕服務機構之資格與台灣民眾黨黨團提案同第十八條之七維持原提案"},{"start":25125.56,"end":25139.879,"text":"第十八條之八 人工生殖機構因於施行代孕生殖胚胎植入手術且懷孕成功後就委託代孕相關事項開立書面證明並分別交付代理孕母及瘦素配偶 瘦素配偶因此"},{"start":25140.76,"end":25169.609,"text":"前項書面證明及出生證明 向護證機關辦理出生登記 第一項證明文件之內容格式及其他應遵形式項之辦法由中央主管機關由主管機關定之 第十八條之九 代理孕母之代孕生殖胎兒自出生時期視為瘦數配偶之婚生子女 第二項與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第二項同 第三至第五項如下 代孕契約之無效及撤銷不影響第一項鎖定代孕子女"},{"start":25171.089,"end":25190.225,"text":"與受訴配偶之關係受訴配偶婚姻或司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法第二條關係有無效之情形其對於未成年子女權利義務之行使或負擔依協議由一方或雙方共同認知未違協議或協議不成者準用民法第1055條制定"},{"start":25191.986,"end":25195.531,"text":"第1055條之二規定 民法第1063條第一項第1065條第二項及第1067條規定與本條第一項情形不適用之"},{"start":25206.584,"end":25229.419,"text":"第十八條之十 代理孕母植入瘦素配偶胚胎成功懷孕後依優生保健法第九條規定施行人工流產時應通知瘦素配偶施述之人工生殖機構及代孕服務機構 其為同條第一項第六款情形且代理孕母有配偶者得免適用同條第二項應得配偶同意之規定第二十一條"},{"start":25232.625,"end":25261.411,"text":"第一項序文及第二三款與台灣民眾黨黨團第一項序文及第二三款同第一款如下一提供女性瘦數者或代理育母完成活產一次但同一捐贈來源形成之冷凍胚胎用於同一對瘦數配偶或同一位瘦數未婚女性不在此限第二項序文如下瘦數配偶瘦數未婚女性之生殖細胞有下裂情形之一者人工生殖機構因與銷毀第三款據莫增列"},{"start":25263.496,"end":25280.358,"text":"逗號其保存期限位於40年第三項至第五項如下受訴配偶受訴未婚女性為實施人工生殖形成之配胎有下列情形之一者人工生殖機構因與銷毀依知悉受訴配偶婚姻無效撤銷離婚或一方死亡"},{"start":25280.859,"end":25304.501,"text":"二 知悉受贖配偶 司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法第二條關係無效 撤銷終止或一方死亡三 保存於十年 但經胚胎所有人之同意得依照其同意延長保存 其保存期間未於四十年四 知悉受贖配偶 受贖未婚女性放棄施行人工生殖五 知悉受贖未婚女性死亡"},{"start":25305.72,"end":25321.856,"text":"人工生殖機構歇業前應通知捐贈人並取得其同意後其所捐贈之生殖細胞得轉贈其他人工生殖機構瘦素配偶 瘦素未婚女性之生殖細胞或胚胎應通知瘦素配偶 瘦素未婚女性取得其同意"},{"start":25324.15,"end":25339.097,"text":"取得其同意後 得轉由其他人工生殖機構繼續保存 其餘所保存之生殖細胞或胚胎應與銷毀 前四項應與銷毀之生殖細胞及胚胎經捐贈人 瘦素配偶或瘦素未婚女性同意"},{"start":25340.238,"end":25355.753,"text":"並報經主管機關核准者得提供研究使用第二十二條下列生殖細胞或胚胎人工生殖機構不得為人工生殖以外之用途但有前條第五項規定之情形者從其規定一捐贈者之生殖細胞二未婚"},{"start":25356.454,"end":25378.015,"text":"二 瘦素配偶或瘦素未婚女性之生殖細胞三 瘦素配偶或瘦素未婚女性未實施人工生殖形成之胚胎第二十三條 瘦素配偶之一方於婚姻或司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法第二條關係程序中 經他方同意以該瘦素配偶一方"},{"start":25379.116,"end":25403.204,"text":"之卵子於第三年捐贈之精子或卵子受胎所生子女視為受訴配偶他方之婚生子女 民法第九十二條及一千零六十七條規定於前項情形不適用之女同性受訴配偶之一方於司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施刑法第二條關係程序中同意以受訴配偶他方之卵子與第三年捐贈之精子"},{"start":25403.624,"end":25417.825,"text":"有女同性授受配偶之一方受胎所生子女視為授受配偶他方之婚生子女授受未婚女性依第十三條第一項規定所生子女及捐贈人間不適用民法第1067條規定"},{"start":25422.148,"end":25435.658,"text":"第24條 妻於婚姻關係程序中同意以夫之精子與他人捐贈之卵子由妻受胎所生子女 視為夫之婚生子女民法第92條規定於本條 情形不適用之"},{"start":25437.532,"end":25452.239,"text":"第二十五條 受訴配偶一方受胎後其有婚姻或司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施刑法第二條關係經撤銷無效之情形應分免所生子女視為受訴配偶之婚生子女"},{"start":25453.717,"end":25471.528,"text":"第26條人工生殖機構依第7條第2項第9條第2項第14條第18條之二第3項第4項第18條之8所定之紀錄因依醫療法有關病例之規定製作保存及辦理其他相關事項第27條第1項第4至第6款如下"},{"start":25473.169,"end":25492.139,"text":"四 依第十八條之八 開立書面證明五 依第二十一條第一項至第四項規定所為之銷毀六 每年度應主動通報受訴人次 成功率不孕原因 性別分析所採行之人工生殖技術及其他相關事項予以臺灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":25494.68,"end":25512.028,"text":"第一項同第二及第三項如下主管機關應定期公佈前項第六款之統計資料第一項通報之期限內容格式程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法由主管機關定之第三十三條與文字第十八條之六後面增列第一項"},{"start":25515.046,"end":25540.524,"text":"第一項或第二項所定辦法予以臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同第34條修正第二項後段首次違戒予以臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同第35條莫具為並因依依施法規定一副懲戒予以臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同提案人委員陳昭之廖偉祥圖權及王育敏邱振軍陳金輝盧憲伊林倩及蘇清泉"},{"start":25543.817,"end":25569.162,"text":"第二案第三條第四款婚姻關係指民法婚姻關係或司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施刑法第二條關係第五款第二行升職至婚姻關係程序中之雙方當事人以下簡稱配偶第七款受訴者第二行修正為終以其子宮懷孕及分娩之一方"},{"start":25572.654,"end":25600.002,"text":"予以行政院提案同第4條第一行以一方之精子第二行入他方體內實施之人工生殖予以行政院提案同第6條第一項第一款第二款第三款均將夫妻修正為配偶第二款第一幕"},{"start":25601.058,"end":25625.304,"text":"修正第二行修正為或雙方於醫學上或生理上無法以性交方式受孕予以行政院提案同第七條第一款修正為植入夫妻改為植入配偶第三款受訴配偶女方改為受訴者予以行政院提案同第八條"},{"start":25627.654,"end":25656.357,"text":"修正行政院提案夫妻改為配偶欲行政院提案同第10條修正夫妻女同性雙方改為配偶二字欲行政院提案同第11條第4款將行政院提案第3行之女性女性二字刪除欲行政院提案同第14條"},{"start":25659.246,"end":25687.186,"text":"第1項第2行行政院提案夫妻或女同姓雙方修正為配偶予以行政院提案同第16條第3項第2行修正為受訴配偶及第6行亦修正為受訴配偶予以行政院提案同第17條第5行修正為受訴者遁號受訴配偶他方"},{"start":25690.273,"end":25717.777,"text":"及第二項第四行修正為瘦數者或瘦數配偶他方於行政院提案同第十九條第四款修正女同性雙方修正為瘦數配偶於行政院提案同第二十條第四款修正為配偶二字於行政院提案同第二十一條第六款修正為每次植入三個以上胚胎但經醫療評估有特殊需求者不在此限於行政院提案同"},{"start":25719.485,"end":25735.977,"text":"第31條第一款第一行修正為知悉婚姻關係第二行改頓號終止第二款原行政院第二款刪除與與行政院提案同第35條"},{"start":25738.735,"end":25758.748,"text":"第1項第4行修正為生殖細胞或同意以他方知生殖細胞逗號第6行改為生殖細胞第7行改為視為瘦素配偶雙方知與行政院提案同原行政院提案第36條修正為刪除第37條修正為刪除第39條"},{"start":25765.369,"end":25783.234,"text":"刪除行政院提案第二行之或女同性雙方及第四行相同文字予以行政院提案同第46條刪除行政院第三行之遁號第36條第一項或第37條第一項文字予以行政院提案同第47條"},{"start":25787.124,"end":25814.855,"text":"刪除行政院提案第四款第三行與同一女性女性二字刪除予以行政院提案同第48條第一款行政院第一款及第四款第二行所提夫妻或女同性雙方修改為配偶予以行政院提案同第49條"},{"start":25817.472,"end":25843.8,"text":"第六款第三行修正為受訴者頓耗受訴配偶他方第七款修正同綱第六款文字與以行政院提案同提案委員王逸川 林淑芬 林月琴 黃婕第三案第十一條第一項修正為"},{"start":25846.209,"end":25871.834,"text":"男性20歲以上未滿40歲予以行政院提案同第二十一條第六款修正為每次植入三個以上胚胎予以行政院提案同第六章章名修正為人工生子子女之身世知悉權第四十條第一項第二行修改為膚色遁號國籍及捐贈者提供之非可識別資訊"},{"start":25873.973,"end":25901.239,"text":"同時增列第二項第二行人工生殖子女亦得申請查詢前項資訊第三項修正為前二項相關資訊之範圍管理使用及申請查詢辦法由中央主管機關定之第47條修正第9款莫具改為每次植入三個以上胚胎予以行政院提案同提案委員王振旭連署委員林月請王逸川範雲"},{"start":25903.638,"end":25931.662,"text":"修正動議第四案增列第八條 增列第三項第一項 鎖定專業機構不得與實施人工生殖之醫療機構有相互隸屬關係或屬同一醫療機構專業機構及其評估人員執行業務時因遵守利益迴避之原則 當事人得申請迴避提案委員林月琴 連署委員王振旭 林淑芬修正動議第五案 第十一條"},{"start":25933.444,"end":25960.559,"text":"第一款修正為男性20歲以上未滿40歲40歲與行政院提案同提案委員林月琴連署委員王振旭林淑芬宣讀完畢好那"},{"start":25964.895,"end":25989.905,"text":"我們現在全部宣 所有條件都宣讀完畢 包含那個那個修正修正都已經宣讀完畢了那也讓議事長也先稍作休息我們休息十分鐘然後是不是請黨團的助理聯絡委員們 是我來來審查法案現在13點44分那我們我們就修到3點"},{"start":25993.181,"end":25994.904,"text":"55分好不好 OK好 謝謝請各位聯絡一下 謝謝"},{"start":26641.735,"end":26658.619,"text":"好我們繼續開會現在進行人工生殖法修正草案等20案之主條審查那每一個條文先請行政單位說明接著再請委員表示意見有有有有對對沒有錯那"},{"start":26665.441,"end":26692.072,"text":"法案名稱有行政院然後還有民主委員所提的修正動議第六案好一樣請行政單位先表示意見有收到了嗎行政院法案名稱叫人工生殖法"},{"start":26693.473,"end":26712.225,"text":"然後這個移民署委員修正東西叫做人工協助生殖法 多兩個字請行政單位表示意見主席委員 大家午安我們在第一條現在對 針對法案名稱請說明"},{"start":26724.741,"end":26745.25,"text":"有 我有講 我有補充說明多兩個字 協助署長還在看主席讓他們稍微看一下因為那是我剛剛才提的所以他們還沒來得及反應你多到兩個字 他們兩個都愣了"},{"start":26777.682,"end":26779.123,"text":"理由有三點請單位看一下現行"},{"start":26816.776,"end":26818.057,"text":"剛開始剛開始"},{"start":26833.467,"end":26837.209,"text":"教他們給你一份這邊"},{"start":26865.419,"end":26886.652,"text":"還是請林委員你要不要先說明好不好他們一邊看你一邊講這樣可能會比較快一點 來 謝謝好 這個概念是這樣子因為這個以前啊 2008年是不是剛立這個法的時候呢其實我們就要主張黃淑英委員當時就一直主張要叫人工協助生殖法"},{"start":26887.752,"end":26915.782,"text":"但是行政部門就跟我們說我們就不該叫這樣你如果是要叫這樣我們就不該信了 否則我們就沒辦法2008年的情境就是民間社會很急 但官方不太急民間社會 民間社團 婦女團體 人權團體就想說好吧 為了拜託他們加速通過所以大家就相忍畏國"},{"start":26917.543,"end":26944.488,"text":"在這種氛圍裡面就同意說我們就暫時這樣子可是這個東西就是一直隱忍的原因是因為我們都知道就是升職是人作為一個生育的主體是人在生孩子不是這個人工升職這種技術在生孩子所以我們這個法律要從下這個法律就是講人工"},{"start":26945.228,"end":26964.995,"text":"怎么利用人工的科技来协助人来生育这样子所以人是主体那所以我们要把人工协助升职的相关规定要怎么管定在这部法律里面那美国NIH的定义也是"},{"start":26965.675,"end":26991.153,"text":"美国NIH的定义就是说ART就是人工辅助生殖技术它的英文名字就是Assisted Reproductive Technology它其实就是一系列用于治疗不孕症帮助个人或者是夫妻实现怀孕的医疗程序的管理"},{"start":26991.833,"end":27010.921,"text":"因為我們知道全世界從1978年第一個體外受精我們簡稱IVF成功分娩以來剛剛講的Assisted Reproductive Technology這個麥克風是不是斷訊"},{"start":27016.57,"end":27031.19,"text":"这个ART的技术已经发展成为一个高度专业而且快速的发展的领域了所以它这个里面融合了生殖内分泌学胚胎学遗传学还有个人化的患者护理"},{"start":27031.79,"end":27059.268,"text":"那所以这个ART的核心它在处理这个精子跟卵子在体外受精常用的技术当然刚刚讲的这个IVF还有卵胞浆内单一精子注射的ICSI还有胚胎冷冻保存那猪乳胚胎植入前的遗传血的检测PGT还有岩石胚胎的监测等新技术它种种都"},{"start":27060.309,"end":27088.73,"text":"这些技术也对很多需要人工协助才能够生育的患者带来很大的帮助所以我们是主张人才是生育的主体那这个人工生殖的技术其实是要来用人工的技术来协助生殖而不是人工生殖法直接就是人工生殖在创造生命"},{"start":27089.691,"end":27111.578,"text":"所以不是人工生殖創造了這個生命而是人工生主來協助人去生產了一個生命所以是這樣子所以只有把它講好了人工協助的生殖法人工協助是一個輔具"},{"start":27112.6,"end":27135.263,"text":"人生殖才是主體所以我們是希望說法案的名稱要正本那法律的制定要以人作為中心的思考而不是把生殖技術變成主體然後裡面失去了人這樣的一個角色那其實人工協助生殖大家就看得比較清楚第一個"},{"start":27135.823,"end":27153.055,"text":"第二个因为是人工协助生殖所以我们这个法的目的就是在规范那人工协助生殖要做哪一些规范会一目了然否则我们以为人工生殖才会有所谓的代理孕母也放进来这不法律的概念"},{"start":27153.695,"end":27178.11,"text":"因为他理解错误这里是讲人工来协助升职里面需要技术上还有管理上还有资格上要怎么规范这样子才会让看的人一目了然这样子所以是不是请求大家可以支持我们就证明在当初2008年的时候其实就是要这样子命名了"},{"start":27179.812,"end":27188.207,"text":"時空雖然改變了但我覺得我們還是可以回來證明一下 謝謝好 謝謝 請陳昭志委員發言"},{"start":27190.044,"end":27211.59,"text":"林委員就是很辛苦的講了很久很久但是我想他最後的重點他們的主張在最後一句那一句基本上就是很有問題的而非創造生命我們今天就是在談創造生命生育本身就是創造生命不管透過哪個方法今天涵蓋哪一部分的內容"},{"start":27212.25,"end":27226.658,"text":"目的就是創造生命無論是因為家庭權的一個生育權的概念或是一個國安問題的這個增加人數所以他們這個主張我覺得基本上本質是有問題的"},{"start":27227.578,"end":27251.744,"text":"所以我覺得原來的條文就很OK了人工生殖法我們用了20多年那個時候之前在就已經有所謂的人工協助技術這個技術存在那所有的專家學者們也覺得這個法案這個法案的名稱是可以的但如果為了所謂的強調非創造生命就不懂啊我們今天所有的努力都在創造生命啊如果是用這個觀點又要回去去把這個名稱改掉"},{"start":27254.403,"end":27268.436,"text":"那完全沒有辦法接受就是維持原法案的名稱我們主張維持原法案名稱謝謝好謝謝那是不是請行政單位來做一下回應跟說明"},{"start":27272.057,"end":27296.472,"text":"主席 各位委員如果看到我們的這個行政院版本的第三條的名詞定義它在闡述這個法最主要涉及到的人工生殖技術那指的就是以生殖醫療以非性交的方式"},{"start":27299.274,"end":27321.296,"text":"以非性交的人工受孕胚胎植入或者是其他的相关方法达到受孕生育目的所以我们看到其他国家的用语确实像刚刚林委员讲的是Assisted Reproductive"},{"start":27321.736,"end":27346.262,"text":"或者是加上human以加拿大而言它是Human Assisted Reproductive Act就是人类辅助生殖法如果以英国来讲它是人类授精与胚胎法"},{"start":27347.819,"end":27372.252,"text":"所以概念就是我們現在所在行政院版本裡面所做的名詞定義的人工生殖所以如果說要這個讓它這個法案的名稱不再那麼冰冷比較有人性的話那也許是輔助生殖法那我們對後面的文字調整會比較小"},{"start":27373.576,"end":27397.268,"text":"就是我們就會變成之後的都不稱人工生殖就稱為輔助生殖Assisted Productive那就不是人工啦比較不是那麼冰冷雖然人工生殖這個名稱我們在台灣這是很普遍的用語對這種生殖技術那麼是很普遍的用語不過如果要讓它不那麼冰冷"},{"start":27398.048,"end":27415.462,"text":"因为现在有很多什么人工人工那其实我们只是协助或辅助那么不是透过性交的方式而达到受孕 着胎 生育的目的所以如果真的大家觉得我们既然这次要改了"},{"start":27416.142,"end":27438.137,"text":"我們讓他更人性一點我們的建議就是用人工協助生殖又覺得怪怪的那就乾脆回到在國際上大家通用的語言就是 assistive productive叫輔助生殖法來做參考以上說明"},{"start":27446.82,"end":27455.532,"text":"所以剛剛其實淑芬所講的不管是人工協助生殖法或者是我剛剛其實也跟淑芬講說用輔助兩個字也許其實更恰當"},{"start":27456.853,"end":27484.427,"text":"因為剛剛有特別提到他是用人工的方式來達到所謂的受孕的目的那這個部分其實不包含把別人的子宮納入到我們的製度裡那這個部分我要特別說一下就是人工生殖輔助法那我覺得也可能會有一些溫度跟人性就是幫助他用人工的一個方式來達到這個受孕的一個目的那這個部分我也Echo一下就是我們衛福部這邊好以上"},{"start":27485.559,"end":27489.084,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 接下來請陳昭淑委員再來再換陳培宇委員 謝謝陳培宇委員"},{"start":27495.452,"end":27517.382,"text":"好剛剛如果按照淑芬委員然後還有衛福部的回應還有剛剛郭玉琴委員的說法我先確定一下我先說我非常認同林淑芬委員的建議就是把協助的概念放進去因為確實如果按照部長您說的其實在國外已經有類似的用法我們去強調它其實是額外人為的協助這件事情是非常非常的重要"},{"start":27517.882,"end":27543.547,"text":"那這個部分就等一下可以來討論但是我先說我非常認同這個建議的方法但是第二個我也很想問我們雖然在第三條開始定義所謂人工生殖啦然後其他相關的定義但是整部法裡面有哪一些法條可能會因為這個名稱的改變然後而產生變動這個衛福部可不可以待會也回應一下還是說如果其實還需要盤點可能也都對對對對對好謝謝"},{"start":27549.075,"end":27571.251,"text":"如果大家可以確定一個名稱全部都修改其實每一條你只要把人工升職那四個字變成人工輔助升職或是人工協助升職其實如果大家同意的話那就整個版本都改應該是也不是很大的事情謝謝"},{"start":27577.355,"end":27604.605,"text":"陳委員陳昭志委有要發言嗎要求保留謝謝保留還有其他委員嗎我各位在討論保留是不是可以你要先溝通其實就是說你把你意見講出來你講出來你說服我們我們也說服你們你現在現在你我們是很想知道你為什麼要保留啊"},{"start":27605.685,"end":27624.533,"text":"你們第一個在說明你講的非常的複雜當然你如果要說到原來的英文什麼那個當然英文教科書都可以去了解但是我覺得你最後的結論跟主張是錯誤的就這樣那我收回我部分讓你不悅的話語你願意協助嗎我們今天就是在討論如何去創造生命"},{"start":27630.935,"end":27657.737,"text":"創造生命一定是人去生小孩的難道會是機器去生小孩嗎人才能創造生命啊我也盡量我們比較真實就是理性討論但是因為早上為什麼今天這麼晚在討論我就跟你說如果我剛才講的話有部分你聽了不舒服覺得不能接受那你不舒服的那一部分我個人說我個人我收回我個人認為你"},{"start":27658.998,"end":27672.656,"text":"但是就是說如果他們其他委員還有衛福部講的有道理那就是說我們來討論說你願意覺得說人工輔助升職覺得有道理可以那我們就可以談"},{"start":27675.198,"end":27695.567,"text":"是我个人讲话让你觉得不舒服我觉得我可以收回我个人让你不舒服的部分更冷徐部长更冷哦你在讲温度现在开始讲温度了温度对没有子宫女人完全没有温度哦都是这个寒冰啊加头加血一点都没有温度哦我们要花时间在讨论这个题目吗"},{"start":27703.152,"end":27728.54,"text":"溫度是每人的感覺 這個有溫度嗎我們的意思是就不要講溫度好了就是說我們回到英文的通用的說法就是全世界都是在講assistiveassistive不是在講輔助嗎不是講一種支持和協助嗎那assistive whatassistive那個reproductive協助只有人才可以再生產"},{"start":27730.598,"end":27756.356,"text":"你知道其實在馬克思主義裡面除了貨品可以再生產人勞動力都可以再生產人的再生產就不斷的複製再生產出來那就一個是生小孩嘛那另外一個當然是像在理論上還有一個再生產就是勞動力勞動力可以再生產除了貨物可以再生產"},{"start":27757.757,"end":27782.839,"text":"勞動力可以再生產最重要是人是可以再生產的而這個再生產講的就是生小孩那錢在講的再生產我們講的是assisted 協助幫助我們講的是一般的世界的通用的說法不是說不要講溫度不溫度不要我講什麼主題我們都可以收回"},{"start":27784.537,"end":27812.511,"text":"因為這個是比較中性的講法我們在討論一個法案我們就中性的講法世界通用的講法我們希望大家看到這部法律可以一看就知道這裡講的是人工來協助生殖的管理法以人工技術來在體外受精然後這樣的一個生殖技術的管理這個法律就是在講這個"},{"start":27817.707,"end":27834.722,"text":"好來請王哲訓委員之後再換陳昭志委員我想剛剛的討論基本上就是對於名稱是不是有機會做在用英文當基礎之下來讓我們對這個法律有更明確的掌握"},{"start":27837.404,"end":27861.565,"text":"那剛剛招致委員很不以為然的就是如果我們看到這個修正動議裡面的說立法說明裡面的最後一句可能會讓他覺得很奇怪就是說我們最後一句是這樣寫的我們主張是生育主體技術是用來協助而非創造生命"},{"start":27862.165,"end":27883.533,"text":"那我會建議我們是不是就把最後這一句不要列進來如果要列進來的話是應該說技術是用來協助創造生命可是又覺得好像不是那麼樣的恰當所以如果我們把最後一句移除不影響到整個立法說明的話"},{"start":27884.233,"end":27907.983,"text":"那是不是就比較能夠避免是不是創造生命這樣的一個大家造成的一個爭議以上的意見 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 現在請陳教授委員主席 如果這一句話因為事實上我們是在創造生命我不知道為什麼要強調我們而非創造生命我們是在創造生命那如果按照王醫師這個建議那個立法說明這個理由會變成立法說明嗎"},{"start":27909.443,"end":27937.711,"text":"這段話是拿掉 那其實也寫太多了吧部長 你知道大部分國際名稱是這樣寫也不用寫這麼肉肉等這個立法說明就只為了多兩個字就回到英文的有需要這樣嗎但是最後好沒關係你希望怎麼改你改改看嘛你修正理由你把它改改看啦我覺得不是不能改嗎剛剛王醫師也有講到我們主張是什麼生育技術而非創造這句話"},{"start":27938.926,"end":27959.799,"text":"這句話就看得很不對勁就跟我們今天要處理的法案完全不對人工生殖法不管他是用什麼哪一種技術我們目的就在創造生命怎麼會跑出一個而非創造我們目的是創造生命他寫了一個這麼相反的東西在裡面那不然這段拿掉那其實說明也不用這麼多要直接改就改"},{"start":27961.638,"end":27986.978,"text":"沒有啊你現在要改哪幾個字哪幾句我們主張是生育主體就是你寫的那個理由啊立法說明啊我不知道你而非創造生命你最後你要強調什麼我不知道你在這個下個伏筆而非創造那不是創造生命是創造什麼是要創造什麼我們就是在創造生命啊好"},{"start":27989.711,"end":28006.565,"text":"這離譜的一個立法說明那在基礎下你說要改名字 沒關係我們都充分討論 改名字是小事 表示意見現在換 換於委員表示意見我也支持就是林淑芬委員這個修正動議名稱用人工協助升職法"},{"start":28007.125,"end":28028.46,"text":"那我想那個說明欄那個部分其實是可以討論的要不要精簡一點那重要是說這樣子其實跟國際同步也比較回到他其實就是一個協助的一個概念我想這樣子其實是能夠國際接軌也不會讓人有誤解吧所以這個名稱如果大家都同意的話其實是更好的謝謝來請黃國昌委員再換陳培宇委員其實我本來"},{"start":28037.16,"end":28065.59,"text":"尊重 因為雖然是跟司法法制聯繫甚本來想說還是尊重未還委員大家的專業意見那只不過我剛剛在聽相關的討論的時候可能有一些說明跟我的認知有一些差距所以我覺得必須要在立法的歷程裡面把它說清楚第一個剛剛討論到加拿大"},{"start":28067.597,"end":28085.724,"text":"的立法例部長我剛引的那個加拿大立法例的發點那個名稱啊部長可能再查一下你剛講的那個名稱不是正確的名稱加拿大在聯邦的層級裡面他們用的是"},{"start":28087.87,"end":28103.87,"text":"Assisted Human Reproduction不是ReproductiveAssisted Human Reproduction Act在這個法律裡面說會跟代理孕母脫鉤嗎沒有"},{"start":28106.739,"end":28135.951,"text":"雖然是用所謂的輔助人類生產法他也不是用人工兩個詞如果你真的要有人位的話不會用人工兩個詞他說輔助的對象是Human是人類輔助人類生產法那定了這個名詞以後會去影響到裡面會不會有代理運模嗎其實也不會"},{"start":28137.188,"end":28162.516,"text":"因為在加拿大的聯邦法裡面就寫得很清楚了他的Syrogus的確在聯邦法的裡面本來也就是在Assisted Human Reproduction Act裡面本來就有包括在裡面所以我剛聽到了說因為這個法條這個法規本身多了這兩個字會把Syrogus就當然的排除在外"},{"start":28163.547,"end":28187.172,"text":"可能跟我所認知 大家在討論因為世界上面在處理代理運母的加拿大的法例跟美國加州的法例兩個呈現完全不同的風貌那當然兩個都是可以被討論的對象但如果我們在立法的過程當中要留下正確的紀錄的話恐怕不是"},{"start":28188.274,"end":28212.191,"text":"恐怕不是改了這個名稱以後就想當然可以把代理運募排除在外最典型的例子就是加拿大的法典如果我有說錯等一下歡迎部長可以來加以指正那第二個部分是說人工生殖是不是一個好的term當然可以討論但問題是"},{"start":28215.393,"end":28243.418,"text":"我們現在目前從我們的法律到命令人工生殖這四個字用了非常的久如果我們現在要改變另外一個turn的話那恐怕修正的幅度不是只有這部人工生殖法而已相關的法律到命令整個名詞的調整那個工程非常的浩大那是不是有必要在這個地方"},{"start":28244.645,"end":28268.145,"text":"因為這個法律名稱的修改而去牽動到其他法律或者是命令大規模全盤的去修正我們已經沿用相當久的名稱恐怕這也是在立法的過程當中必須要去注意的事情以上說明好 謝謝黃委員陳培宇委員完之後再換廖偉祥召委謝謝"},{"start":28270.325,"end":28285.145,"text":"好谢谢主席刚刚那个部长你说加拿大人工生殖法他的对应名称其实刚林淑芬委员讲的并没有错那我不知道黄国昌委员是有什么误解不过我想基于"},{"start":28285.985,"end":28313.936,"text":"大家對於名稱跟後續法規上的盤點如果都有意見我認為我認為本來相關的盤點就是重要的而且就算我們今天沒有修改這個法案名稱我們本來在相關條文修正之後衛福部也要相關配套跟執法的盤點或者是新的法規命令會因之而產生所以我認為所引起的修法工程這本來就是我們立法院在每一個法案修法當中"},{"start":28314.716,"end":28339.973,"text":"都會遇到的所以我認為這絕對不會是困難的事情困難的是大家如何去理解輔助升職或者是剛剛淑芬說的協助的部分放進去那我認為在相關國際法規上如果大家都對這個字的理解是很可以接受的我其實還蠻支持這個版本的也希望在黨委員可以一起支持謝謝好謝謝來請賴偉祥召委"},{"start":28344.319,"end":28369.616,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛這個部長有提到加拿大的部分嘛那這個他是叫輔助人類生殖法那裡面代孕也是合法的他是有寫在這裡面但我覺得是這樣子其實我們在討論很多的立法包含之前的外送專法大家對於名稱一開始都會有一些不同的想法那是不是可以先保留往下討論完之後再看怎麼樣好不好主席謝謝請林淑媛"},{"start":28374.164,"end":28403.353,"text":"主席如果陳我覺得不用保留了因為好像談得差不多了陳昭之委員如果他介意而非以人工促使升職就是那幾個字要拿掉你們就會同意我們也是可以接受因為整個法案大家就是溝通那我不堅持100%的我的立場我也可以退讓但是如果我退讓了你就可以接受那我們其實是不用保留的"},{"start":28404.173,"end":28411.919,"text":"人工協助升職或是人工輔助升職對啊 那個國際接軌的概念"},{"start":28415.595,"end":28430.829,"text":"而且一看就懂了沒錯主席我是主張保留但是簡單回想接軌國際接軌國際第一個這個名詞不是要排除代孕第二個接軌國際就是要接代孕沒有 接軌國際這個我們就一個接軌國際各自表述"},{"start":28436.554,"end":28438.878,"text":"接軌國際95%的國家都沒有開放啊接軌國際要接軌什麼樣的國際"},{"start":28452.469,"end":28472.134,"text":"如果要講接軌國際那就很特別去年聯合國在7月14號出了一個特別的報告他特別提出具體就是整個報告提出具體的建議第一個國際跟國家政策層面的廢除目標廢除什麼"},{"start":28473.054,"end":28501.124,"text":"推動全面廢除在國際層面採取步驟以取消一切形式的代孕行為為最終目標並努力通過一項具有法律約束力的國際文書來禁止代孕這就是還國際接軌啊那去年聯合國通過啊那不是國際嗎而且是聯合國耶而且他希望能夠很多歐盟體系國家事實上是禁止就代孕的而且"},{"start":28502.27,"end":28513.385,"text":"聯合國是講說未來過去有的都希望能夠事實上是走向禁止代孕那怎麼會是剛剛講的一直在講國際接軌那到底接哪一個軌不是除軌"},{"start":28520.481,"end":28536.999,"text":"我覺得還是要講為什麼人家人家為什麼這樣提他再三重申因為這種會對有多重形式的暴力傷害對於待遇的女性事實上第一個是經濟暴力早上我也講過有人倫的問題"},{"start":28540.031,"end":28563.524,"text":"妹妹會不會被媽媽要求幫嫂嫂代孕這不是沒有發生過那之前台灣也有妹妹幫姊姊代孕這都是問題我們要好好的去討論這些會對兒童權益產生傷害的不是在這邊用九條就要硬闖過關這對孩子公平嗎"},{"start":28566.175,"end":28582.391,"text":"對經濟弱勢的婦女公平嗎只憑一個人的想法就要去推動而且我說國際已經是已經是要禁止代孕了為什麼我們還在這邊講國際接軌最後呢還是要硬闖然後要討論代孕以上"},{"start":28583.646,"end":28608.357,"text":"好再陳教授委員主席我補充一下剛剛這個有位學問高深的委員拿出來的報告根本不是聯合國報告他就是一位聯合國顧問的一個個人的看法這份報告的作者叫Rim Elsalem他被LBGT跟婦女團體認為是完全是反跨性別這是我第一個說明他這個是一個個人的而且大有問題第二個我們有關"},{"start":28611.498,"end":28626.989,"text":"我們的主條這請他要證明我們是有10條核心的代孕加上5條的配套至少有15條的這個這個項目是在討論這個這個部分那至於經濟弱勢我們等一下解釋我們就來"},{"start":28627.99,"end":28638.998,"text":"等到法條的時候我們再來討論什麼叫弱勢怎麼樣所謂的經濟弱勢是年薪多少叫經濟弱勢我們有辦法區分嗎主計總部說70%的勞工是處在這個平均年資以下的這個70%以下都是"},{"start":28643.982,"end":28660.17,"text":"低於薪資低於百分這個平均的這個薪資那這些百分之七的勞工都是經濟弱勢嗎都不准他們要生小孩嗎都不准嗎藉由這個人工生殖技術來生小孩嗎所以這個都是反而空泛的沒有一個基礎的一個說法那以上"},{"start":28664.144,"end":28682.522,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇委員 晚在林書文然後再問老師好謝謝主席那個其實在立法院修法的過程當中把名字因為不同的社會趨勢不同的輿論不同的學者專家的建議不同的民情反應"},{"start":28683.423,"end":28700.038,"text":"還有就是到了不同的世代大家對於這個議題的看法也有所不同我們經常在立法院可以看到名稱被修改的法案就算可能其中只有修好幾條我想舉一個例子就是我自己有親身經驗到的也想提供給在野黨的委員參考"},{"start":28700.939,"end":28719.009,"text":"之前性別工作平等法後來也修成也修了一個新的版本換了一個新的名稱如果大家還記憶深刻的話在選舉的時候我們快速通過性別三法的修法所以我要提醒大家修改名稱這件事情在法理上並"},{"start":28719.969,"end":28742.408,"text":"并不是不合理的也不是不合逻辑的而且真的是可以做的那在立法院过去就有例子那我还是希望在立党委员可以支持因为我觉得就刚刚我们这边提出的很多看法就是所谓对轨国际这件事情是如果把辅助这个概念放进去对照于英文他所要强调的他是透过外在的辅助技术去协助所有"},{"start":28742.788,"end":28755.238,"text":"沒有辦法自行生育的人去完成他想要生育的夢想這件事情我們認為把輔助的概念放上去才是符合我們現在在醫學現場所操作的這些技術以上 謝謝"},{"start":28757.348,"end":28767.136,"text":"好 謝謝 對不起 那個陳委員完之後再陳召諸委員你對 就是你我不是陳委員你已經講了我好幾次陳委員我都我都我都稱呼他萬老師"},{"start":28776.607,"end":28797.709,"text":"好啦我想剛剛其實大家都已經開始在講到這個部分了那我想國際趨勢其實已經不是全面在支持而是多國他們重新在檢視他們重新檢視什麼因為現在包含德國法國西班牙義大利瑞士芬蘭瑞典等等他們其實是全面禁止各種形式的代孕"},{"start":28798.43,"end":28822.98,"text":"那義大利甚至是禁止國民赴海外尋求代孕而且是有罰則的所以其實就算過去他們也有所謂的代孕但現在都重新再檢討代孕出來衍生的所有的一些問題這個對代孕者公平嗎然後再來我覺得把代孕放進來這個整個所有的我們今天要逐條的這個部分我覺得是非常不負責任的啦"},{"start":28823.3,"end":28846.358,"text":"因為目前為止其實在台灣有重大的旗艦沒有任何的共識為什麼要犧牲所謂的代孕者而且為什麼要把代孕放到今天這一本這個我們的這個人工輔助生殖法的這個部分來做討論我想在沒有任何的共識之下強推硬推然後硬講我覺得這是相當不負責任的一種態度啦好以上"},{"start":28847.165,"end":28863.834,"text":"好 謝謝郭玉琴委員的發言接下來請陳昭芝委員謝謝主席我還是在強調全世界最大的自由民主國家也是執政黨最愛最信任的民主國家叫做美國美國有47州有完整的代孕制度所以為什麼台灣只剩下有錢的人"},{"start":28864.634,"end":28891.981,"text":"有錢的人才能夠到美國去做這個到去做代孕所以這個孕母兒童都是這個在中國都能夠受到完整的保障他們的立法的這個年代也非常的久遠有非常多的多的這個一個經驗跟很多的研究報告文獻報告都發表了那我要談的是中國沒有代孕導致地下化才有所謂的所謂的嬰兒工廠難道民進黨希望台灣變得像中國這樣嗎"},{"start":28893.82,"end":28913.267,"text":"我們口口聲聲是美國是最大的友好坑家美國有47州是同意這個代孕的所以我想我們剛剛已經本來是討論法條嘛你現在辯論到這樣我就繼續嘛剛剛那個報告一個人報告不要拿美國都要退出聯合國了就不要你最愛的美國都要退出聯合國了"},{"start":28913.767,"end":28933.963,"text":"所以不要拿一個人報告我也可以發表報告我也可以再舉更多科學性的報告來告訴你包括要加上很多很多的資料所以主席我們就是回到如果連這一條都有爭執而且欲埋伏筆那我就主張保留保留就是我們原來名字大家都很習慣台灣人民都朗朗上口人工生殖法朗朗上口要求保留 謝謝好 謝謝來林淑媛再換陳彼委員"},{"start":28942.915,"end":28965.457,"text":"好啦 我是不知道什麼樣的條件你們的版本為什麼要這樣子訂導致於說你們在法律名稱上也這樣子強硬的堅持我們來看你們的18條之一民眾黨的18條之一你們都騙社會你們都說沒有子宮的或是疾病的"},{"start":28966.518,"end":28986.511,"text":"不能生育的才能夠這個代理孕母可是你們的版本不是這樣子寫啊你們的版本裡面除了無子宮的或者是因子宮免疫疾病也可以代孕生子宮有問題子宮有疾病什麼疾病不知道然後有免疫疾病我也類風失關節炎我也有免疫疾病我也會死"},{"start":28991.814,"end":29014.502,"text":"或其他事實難以孕育子女那其他事實是什麼你們都無限開放所以你們都假借吳子宮的女人的名義來行全面開放的這個事實然後說懷孕分娩會危及生命之餘的也可以代孕大家都知道每一個女人生孩子大家都有嚴重生命風險"},{"start":29019.824,"end":29047.989,"text":"大家都知道人家說一句話啊心會過多汗 心會過四地方你知道嗎我們在生產事故救濟條例本人在2016年跟婦女團體立的法律我們在走了這麼多年裡面在婦女生產遇到事故的時候我們發現沒有什麼女人在生育的時候是完全零風險的"},{"start":29049.639,"end":29072.946,"text":"沒有所有女人生產是低風險的每一個女人生一個孩子其實雖然不是鬼門關走一招但也是非常巨大的風險多少健康的女人生到一半血栓生到認成高血壓認成毒血症"},{"start":29074.059,"end":29084.646,"text":"每个人都付出很大的风险结果你在这里说这个有风险我就可以合法的使用代孕带你代孕的那个人没风险吗"},{"start":29086.471,"end":29104.006,"text":"你說有免疫疾病的生小孩很困難我就可以代孕我也是免疫疾病我也生小孩很困難我也想要找人代孕這樣子就可以了嗎你們都以無子宮女人當藉口其實是變相包庇要全面開放"},{"start":29105.185,"end":29125.701,"text":"然後導致你今天我們在講中性的法律的名稱叫人工輔助升職或人工協助升職大家你說你不介意聽我講好我給你改掉我給你改掉你幹嘛你說等一會你給我改一下我不能放我的人工代理運務我要代理運務"},{"start":29128.137,"end":29151.688,"text":"老實說因為你們真的把門全打開了所以我們當然是反對但是這個法律的名稱我不是要用來框住你的我們真的只是希望跟世界接軌真的只是希望讓看法律的人知道是人工這個技術來協助我們升職"},{"start":29154.673,"end":29167.601,"text":"本來這不法正本清源因為是人工協助生殖所以我們要規範人工協助生殖的這些機構怎麼管理你要使用的人要有什麼資格"},{"start":29168.985,"end":29194.683,"text":"是這樣子不要覺得說哎呦林淑芬提一個證明要求合作人工協助生殖法還是人工輔助生殖法一定就是要幫你動你的代理運務我要動你的代理運務不用證明啦我們本來就反對我也都幫你講名的唱名的我們就是反對你的代理運務但是這個名字的改要改掉不是為了"},{"start":29195.524,"end":29203.453,"text":"要去阻擋你要去阻擋你是我們認為陳九條不夠也不行這樣子對於人權不是已經告訴你不是九條了嗎你現在的版本就九條啊"},{"start":29207.984,"end":29211.348,"text":"就15條啊你現在修正15條了沒有讀清楚我們看到18-1開始看啊15條就夠了嗎15條就比9條更好嗎乘15條比乘9條好聽嗎"},{"start":29227.557,"end":29231.938,"text":"絕對這麼大的倫理事件兒童最佳利益 婦女權益還有整個法律上的變革身心的風險經濟弱勢的女人的風險這類東西風險的轉移而且孩子生產殘疾問題現在社會要怎麼集體風險什麼的這類東西你只有15條也有救嗎"},{"start":29253.342,"end":29274.565,"text":"高調沒搞 十五條就有搞嗎你為什麼不另立一個法律呢好好的完整的討論呢好啦 另外還有別人要發言來 那個歡迎委員完之後再王俊勳委員再來陳佩玉委員 好嗎剛剛那個來發言現在離開的黃國昌委員不是也有釐清說這個名稱齁其實跟內容有沒有代理育母無關嗎"},{"start":29275.546,"end":29304.801,"text":"那既然這樣子是不是就不用保留就是用一個比較明確的不管是輔助升職法或者是協助升職法那我想陳昭之委員就不用在這個名稱上保留啊因為他其實是中性的那那個說明的部分有什麼不同意的部分可以請衛福部再去修改一下因為我們現在討論的是名稱嘛這邊是不是可以請教陳昭之委員那既然這樣子大家至少可以"},{"start":29306.35,"end":29307.582,"text":"不用在这里就保留了"},{"start":29311.145,"end":29338.478,"text":"主席不好意思因為淑芬委員已經強調9條不夠完 事實上不是9條那如果請林委員提出到底要多少條來寫我們也樂意來討論我們就不要啊為什麼需要一條一半條不要啊也只有7條那個是條例 條例主席我們保留兩位現在我們都不是在討論哪幾條現在是在討論法案名稱"},{"start":29339.439,"end":29343.951,"text":"好 我們趕快回到正軌來 接下來請王振旭委員完了之後再陳培藝委員 好"},{"start":29345.868,"end":29370.103,"text":"好 大家比較平靜一點好 我徵求主席的意見看才是啦 不是意見我這邊的準備一份書面報告那這份書面報告是這樣子在113年12月24號我們在查詢 追尋的時候就有麻煩衛福部這邊針對於代理孕母及代孕子女相關健康風險之自行研究"},{"start":29370.763,"end":29386.476,"text":"委託研究或現有國際學術相關研究之翻譯或摘要等資料能夠讓我們來做參考我們在114年1月14號就收到衛福部相關的這個延期以後的相關的書面報告"},{"start":29387.116,"end":29406.291,"text":"但是書院報告就是剛剛大家非常在意的到底代理孕母跟代孕子女相關的風險相較於自然生產或者是相較於透過其他的方式比如說是透過試管嬰兒產生的這些"},{"start":29410.335,"end":29430.732,"text":"後面的這個子代的風險影響他就包括這一些部分那我利用一點點時間也讓大家釐清一下到底這個代理孕母跟代孕子女的相關風險針對於代女孕母的部分代孕子女的健康風險的部分各國所做出來的書面"},{"start":29431.392,"end":29454.138,"text":"相關的我們稱為Evidence-based就是實證醫學所造成的一些大家可以再來做深入討論的地方那根據美國的分析是說在代理孕母的健康風險的部分它又分成兩點一個就是說分娩單細胞的代理孕母罹患"},{"start":29455.078,"end":29470.07,"text":"認成高血壓的比例介於3.2到4%他的比例跟透過試管嬰兒療程懷孕的孕產婦相當所以這部分看起來對於代理孕母的健康風險並沒有太明顯造成的影響"},{"start":29471.071,"end":29487.108,"text":"那另外就是對於在這個過程裡面造成前置胎盤或者是胎盤早期剝離的比率也是相當的這個風險看起來沒有太大讓我們感到疑惑或者是困難的部分"},{"start":29487.708,"end":29507.225,"text":"那對於帶孕子女的健康風險是有同樣的這些狀況所以帶孕子女的風險在美國似乎透過這樣的實證研究好像風險並沒有差太多可是這個是美國的風險評估"},{"start":29510.248,"end":29523.525,"text":"剛剛為什麼趙志偉一直在強調美國他們對這方面帶來的影響可是如果我們看不同的國家其實是不一樣的加拿大帶領孕母跟帶孕子女健康風險的文獻摘要裡面"},{"start":29524.626,"end":29538.713,"text":"他們針對於加拿大安大略省衛生福利部資助的ICES的資料進行成人口數據為基礎的回溯性世代研究一共調查了863,017位分娩單細胞的產婦資料其中有846,124位為自然孕婦 受孕產婦"},{"start":29550.698,"end":29567.372,"text":"然後16807是藉由4款嬰兒的這個受成產婦另外是806位的介婦式代孕就是所謂的代理孕母然後依照這個加拿大的周產期調查系統來定義看他造成的影響是如何"},{"start":29568.473,"end":29582.76,"text":"那這個部分我們看到的風險就明顯是不一樣的那他把這個研究結果依照代理孕母的這個在罹患認真性高血壓或者是在嚴重的這個懷孕過程當中的"},{"start":29585.442,"end":29600.353,"text":"風險影響產後出血罹患嚴重的止癱前症等等的發現說針對於相對於這個代理育母跟試管嬰兒風險其實就明顯發現認證高血壓的加血源後相對風險是1.37倍那比較嚴重的母親帶來的這些"},{"start":29610.341,"end":29635.908,"text":"重病是1.86倍 產後出血的加權風險是1.34倍發生早產的加權後相對風險是1.27倍所以為什麼會不同的國家他們造成後續在處理這些所謂我們稱為代理孕母會造成不同的這個判定的結果 相對是根據他們每一個國家所帶來的這些數據的影響"},{"start":29637.688,"end":29648.58,"text":"那這邊還有一個數據就是荷蘭代理孕母健康風險是文獻摘要他們調查了63位代理孕母的結果摘要"},{"start":29650.202,"end":29678.016,"text":"一就是代理孕母罹患妊娠高血壓的比例是20.6相較於精卷卵人工生殖的這個技術孕母的孕婦是8%所以就明顯是有不同的這個數據上的呈現那代理孕母發生婆婦產的比例是8.8%那精產婦是1%所以也明顯是不一樣那代理孕母發生產後大出血是8.8%"},{"start":29679.697,"end":29705.838,"text":"相較於輕產戶是3%這也是明顯是有上升那英國的數據在這邊最後再念一下英國的這個代理代孕子女的健康風險的文獻摘要包括他們分析了英國人類生殖及胚胎血管理局所蒐集到了103,164個單胞胎 私管嬰兒之人工生殖治療週期通報"},{"start":29707.339,"end":29720.814,"text":"的數據將帶孕子女經由卵子內精子注射技術所形成的新鮮胚胎植入之試管嬰兒療程所生的子女跟經胚胎"},{"start":29722.276,"end":29736.104,"text":"冷凍胚胎植入之試管嬰兒療程所生主女之三類型的這個試管嬰兒進行比較分析其中244個代孕子女87,571個經過相關試管嬰兒及15,354個精"},{"start":29744.069,"end":29759.811,"text":"冷凍胚胎子女所產生的試管嬰兒那結果三個數這些數據顯示在相關之下這個由代孕子女所出生的部分"},{"start":29761.712,"end":29784.598,"text":"是有比例高於其他的所分生的子女就是生產的子女這個體重是有很大的這個差異性所以意思就是說不同的國家可能產出不同的數據可是這些數據讓我們會擔心也能夠讓大家參考一下為什麼不同的國家後來他們會根據自己的這個國家"},{"start":29786.398,"end":29813.702,"text":"看到的現象去做到底我們未來在做這個人工協助生殖裡面代理孕母是不是還是一個適當的選擇我會花這麼多的時間那大家如果有興趣也可以參考這份資料那這份資料還是透過感謝衛生福利部所提供給我們的參考數據以上好謝謝王委員的花言已經破了林委員的紀錄了好"},{"start":29814.52,"end":29822.465,"text":"接下來請陳昭志委員我簡單來說因為現在王醫師念了那麼多其實我也參考加拿大跟歐洲的資料因為他們都三四十年前就開始同意了當然美國是從一週一週一週開始了整個技術的演進它其實是多變數的"},{"start":29837.313,"end":29862.877,"text":"人工生殖的技術本身台灣的人工生殖現在已經40年等在這裡因為第一個出生小孩是民國74年台灣生殖已經成熟大概40年的時間還有多胞胎的妊娠他剛剛都沒有提到這些變數就是一概而括的全部都放在一起還有孕母的年齡那這裡就是說台灣因為晚了世界很久所以我們的人工生殖技術第一個我剛剛也提到民國74年第一個出生姓張的小孩在北榮出生"},{"start":29863.417,"end":29885.05,"text":"第二个多胞胎的认证我们现在已经在法里面规定因为我们还没到实质他们就开始讲了我们事实上是就是一植入一个胚胎嘛就是没有多胞胎你刚刚讲的那些这个那个complication那叫合并症吧这个几胞胎几胞胎植入几个这个胚胎是有相关的还有孕母的年龄孕母的年龄"},{"start":29886.671,"end":29900.861,"text":"都没有做这样一个月再念给你蛮医师蛮历练大家都听了很害怕其实不是这样研究不是这样子做的毕母年龄所以我们把它设在20岁到40岁就是这样这个我们一想这个别人的经验就是给我们最好的参考"},{"start":29901.681,"end":29928.175,"text":"就是最好的我们的管理的经验就是从人类走过的经验而且是先进国家所以这些东西我们都是可以一一克服这个我刚刚提到这个东西这个也都查得到这个研究报告那当然还加上这个就是育母本身的健康因为我们今天本来还没有实质讨论他要做心理生理医学是否带孕的因为育母他刚刚没有提到育母部分如果育母本身有其他的一些疾病"},{"start":29928.935,"end":29949.814,"text":"包括呼吸窘迫啦或等等其他長期健康風險存在那當然這個產出的結果就不一樣正是因為我們太晚上路了所以報告主席我們有太多的經驗可以參考這個研究我們要看的就是發表正式發表的研究報告這些研究報告就是我們最好的累積經驗所以台灣現在來做用嚴謹的方式來管理"},{"start":29952.757,"end":29959.668,"text":"真的會讓他與其在地下化或到別的國家去做都不會更好就在台灣成全他們好 以上好 謝謝還要再發言嗎好 那請發言 林總委員"},{"start":29973.277,"end":29987.552,"text":"我其實因為那個陳昭之委員在反駁說代理育母的健康風險有那麼高然後他又講說其實只要設定條件就好了其實你的版本都沒有你的版本沒有設定"},{"start":29988.753,"end":30015.731,"text":"幾歲到幾歲也沒有說幾胞胎你也都沒有然後你現在說要20到40歲你們一直說要買年輕一點的老的身體還不想買然後還講多胞胎你們的如果我沒有看到因為如果我沒看錯的話你們應該是允許五個以下不能超過五個就是四個你們應該是允許四個吧你們的版本沒有寫的話好像是四個"},{"start":30017.478,"end":30045.597,"text":"你剛剛講的跟你們實際的版本不一樣你們現在這樣子假借無子宮之名然後把這個子宮有缺陷的然後免疫疾病有缺陷的或其他開放權項的都可以的也都放進來可以找代理孕母了然後你們又幫他們說要買新鮮的女性的同體子宮要買新鮮的年輕的女性的子宮然後再來就是說還說"},{"start":30047.878,"end":30066.534,"text":"他那個風險才會降低這樣說我就聽不太下去這敢不敢女人當人把我們的子宮當你只看到子宮沒有看到一個完整的人你說多胞胎的併發症的風險叫他不要放那麼多胞胎你的法律裡面明明的允許很多胞胎"},{"start":30068.812,"end":30078.937,"text":"所以你講的跟你們的版本喔都不一樣啦不一樣啦啊不是說你們的版本你就是在放在人工生殖法裡面所以你這裡放沒關係9條還是15條啊都沒搞只有你的18之幾"},{"start":30092.328,"end":30115.903,"text":"你的18支4 我們今天都是拿2024年5月行政院的版本 每一款對其他法律 每一款訂一條法律都不夠了你的18支4條 你一條裡面允許的 保障的每一款都一條法律都不夠來規範了 還你還用一款"},{"start":30117.239,"end":30137.864,"text":"你把一个可能必须要20条法律规范的这一种保障结果你用一条里面的一款就给它统包了我简单来讲啦 你说瘦素配偶为代孕者投保人身保险的权利讲得好像很好可是你知道吗"},{"start":30138.664,"end":30156.482,"text":"我們 你還一款而已我們兒托法公司要把小孩這個你要送托小孩以前都要確定他都是有保險的要保險好而且還是一條條文要怎麼進行法律要怎麼進行的程序都規定的明明白白清清楚楚人家還明文規定一條 兩條"},{"start":30158.806,"end":30180.799,"text":"而送一个小孩去保姆家都要这样规定的一条两条都还不足以保障结果你把一个买一个女人的子宫连一条条文都不愿意给人家连一条条文完整的保障你都不愿意给人家随便写一款然后其他不负责任只剩下一个要叫你自己去买"},{"start":30182.975,"end":30188.467,"text":"這個社會覺得沒有國家 沒有政府你說威脅人家要9%的代理運沒有自己去炒就好"},{"start":30191.607,"end":30212.186,"text":"這個國家變成烏克蘭了嗎這個國家變成印度了嗎台灣的社會沉淪成這個樣子嗎好啦 好 好 好 先囉 先囉來 那個胡適耀委員你要請陳昭志委員我第一次發言剛剛有聆聽了從王正旭委員就醫學的專業上就技術層面也提供了文獻上的參考"},{"start":30213.707,"end":30237.053,"text":"一些對於母體的一些風險上的一些報告跟說明那當然剛剛陳昭資委員也一直提到說正因為台灣走得比較慢所以我們有很多國際的經驗可以學習似乎是這樣但是我覺得就這兩部分的討論我們就會扣合著今天我一直認為我堅定的捍衛政院版本我希望代孕要脫鉤其實就可以從剛剛兩派的說法可以獲得更進一步的驗證"},{"start":30243.374,"end":30252.93,"text":"就是说不管是人工生殖技术的应用或者是在代理育母制度的建立其实这两件事情在本质跟法规层次上是完全不一样的"},{"start":30253.735,"end":30281.596,"text":"而人工生殖法的核心應當是在生殖技術的使用對象程序生殖技術的機構管理等等這些東西來進行我們必要的討論可是呢你代理孕母他所涉及的更繁複的在委託者在代孕母在代孕子女的權益在親子關係的建立甚至在生命倫理的層次等等他是完全不同層次"},{"start":30282.196,"end":30299.097,"text":"在本质上真的不一样纵然说代孕使用人工生殖技术确实可能因为时代的进步确实医学就是不断的在精进可是核心的争议代孕的核心争议事实上跟技术有关"},{"start":30299.918,"end":30320.059,"text":"但是核心的爭議也可以說跟技術是脫鉤的因為它的核心爭議就是我剛剛說的對於女性身體的商品化或物化對於多重形式下不管是經濟暴力心理的暴力或者是升職的暴力的這些暴力侵害更甚至是對於兒童權利的侵犯與風險等等"},{"start":30321.821,"end":30346.064,"text":"所以说代孕的使用它的核心争议也不能够那么全然简化为说现在技术都很好国际有很多经验台湾比较慢所以一切都没问题所以两个委员刚刚我就扣着这两位委员在专业技术上的探讨包括林淑芬委员的补充可以更验证我自己对于这个法的主张"},{"start":30346.624,"end":30361.749,"text":"核心争议跟技术不是直接这么单一这么简化它是完全属于不同的面向跟层次所以讲回来我今天第一次有机会来发言我还是坚定的支持行政院的版本我们优先就有共识的部分"},{"start":30362.409,"end":30381.591,"text":"那在各个面向各个社会的层面讨论这么久都能够接受的这个范围来有共识者先行跟代孕的部分应当来脱钩处理如果能够把代孕的部分脱钩处理我相信我们在讨论人工生殖法的进程可能也会更快更有效率更有品质好谢谢"},{"start":30382.111,"end":30400.929,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員到現在連華文名稱都沒有共識來 接下來請陳昭志委員因為我覺得事實上應該要一條一條來 已經找到實質內容但我要說明 剛剛那個福文委員一直指控說一條就要處理黃捷的版本第21條在植入胚胎數也只用一款處理"},{"start":30403.234,"end":30430.872,"text":"但每次植入三個但經醫療評估他那個不是代理孕母胚胎數對於孕婦造成影響不會因為他是單女或女童或代理孕母而有所差異好嗎對啊那我們就來修正啊我的版本就是要把它修掉如果淑芬委員認為有要怎麼做才能夠讓你安心那就拜託淑芬委員也提出專法讓我們來討論我不支持我為什麼要知道專法"},{"start":30431.212,"end":30451.77,"text":"我現在跟你講代理孕母最大的問題是因為可能被剝削的倫理而代孕本身我在講代孕其實是代理孕母在替委託者承擔懷孕和生產的風險把懷孕和生產的風險全部轉移給代理孕母"},{"start":30452.771,"end":30460.943,"text":"所以這個風險你不能用乘9條或叫乘15條隨隨便便潦草就給他虛擬委託他要過的比較正經的 比較嚴肅的"},{"start":30465.202,"end":30483.297,"text":"這就是我為什麼說 你的條文 你的法條不是只有無職工的人可以使用你們民眾黨的版本 國民黨的版本只要是職工有一點問題 身體免疫有問題或其他選項 你們全部都開放"},{"start":30484.795,"end":30511.036,"text":"你們所謂的其他事實的可以你沒有說什麼 你就全部開放可以合法使用代理運母 天啊這是什麼東西啊不要再用你們吳子宮的人假借這個名義說要開放代理運母你們的法條講的明明白白很多開放了 全部都開放了用其他條款全部都開放了"},{"start":30512.185,"end":30523.795,"text":"而我在講代孕最大的倫理風險就是很多人把懷孕跟生產的風險叫花錢叫代理孕母都幫你們扛了"},{"start":30525.1,"end":30543.499,"text":"我今天在這裡是反對這種白色啦就說不是9條或15條就不應該放在這個法律你要你提一個新的法律大家討論我就沒有支持 你只能叫我去提一個版本我就不知道這是什麼邏輯我又不支持好"},{"start":30548.823,"end":30570.611,"text":"主席讓我再強調一次我們這一次提出的版本有代孕的部分這兩天我們趕出修正都議連續兩次完全是參照2024年5月國建署提出來的版本2024年就是陳金輝跟吳昭君兩個人共同商量出來被罵的鑰匙最後撤案"},{"start":30571.711,"end":30600.08,"text":"國建署不成熟私底下跟陳金輝委員兩個人討論出來的後來自己覺得丟臉都撤案了還要一直講說好像是國建署就代表民進黨沒有 根本沒有那是陳金輝指導下的版本民進黨開了黨團會議然後直接壓下來連支持代孕的邱太元都只好縮回去然後就說要脫鉤處理要請專法到今天沒有看到專法"},{"start":30601.02,"end":30623.592,"text":"到今天沒有看到就是完全是以黨領政壓下去主席我們是不是回到第一條不是啊為什麼沒有專法因為真的是很困難嘛你去用啊你用出來大家來審你的版本啊那個主席我是不接受這個民眾黨的委員怎麼把我們在講民生議題在講法案內容去扯到民進黨誰壓誰講政治話"},{"start":30626.013,"end":30650.254,"text":"那今天你們民眾黨內部為了解決你陳昭志的兩年條款讓你能不能夠續任然後逼得要這樣誰才在施壓啊我沒有簽兩年條款我沒有簽兩年條款好那你家的事那是你家的事我要說的就是討論民生議案就法條論法條不要再講政治不要再講其他黨怎樣我們現在支持的就是行政院的版本"},{"start":30651.155,"end":30653.436,"text":"而且剛剛陳委員說他沒有簽兩年條款 謝謝陳委員告訴大家"},{"start":31166.206,"end":31190.406,"text":"好 我們繼續開會來針對華民生我看大家都有充分的花言那如果各位還有什麼樣要表達意見我想也差不多都已經充分表達了那有沒有共識如果沒有共識那基本上就保留了好不好好 謝謝那我們繼續審查條文主席"},{"start":31196.216,"end":31222.51,"text":"對不起 怎樣沒有啦 我是在說我們要審到當時 因為麥克風麥克風先處理一下 好好像連麥克風都不順了 是是是我們今天這樣還要繼續審 還是下次擇期再繼續審啦沒關係 我尊重大家的意見 好不好所以每次開尾就是這樣 對啊 你們覺得呢 含這個麥克風都好像有點怪怪的"},{"start":31226.694,"end":31237.237,"text":"我們開會時間是到5點半這每次都是這個樣子各位看好啦 要講也是可以啦就到5點半好 謝謝就到5點半那各位的意見我們就依照原本預定開會時間就到5點半好 謝謝那我們現在來處理第一張張明"},{"start":31243.752,"end":31266.84,"text":"然後請行政 提案 對不起請衛部部先做說明 因為每個委員都有提案還有 對不起 再補充說明修正冬季有這個第一案是陳昭志委員然後還有修正冬季第六案是委員林淑芬對不起對不起沒有沒有 這是第一條 抱歉只有行政院 請說明那個麥克風怪怪的對"},{"start":31272.97,"end":31290.484,"text":"看是誰在搞破壞把他找出來 快點請說明主席 各位委員午安在第一條的部分因為代理育母涉及到的這些委託者代理育母跟代女子女的權益比較有一些比較複雜的情形跟現行的一些人工生殖技術的規範"},{"start":31291.525,"end":31317.984,"text":"不太一样那我们也考量就是说目前大院委员提的代孕的草案的管理机制不是很足那担心会有一些代孕商业化剥削弱势妇女以及先天性缺陷而导致变成人球的一些问题这些也都会违反儿童权利公约以及儿童最佳利益而且儿童一出生即受抚养及照顾的权利那我们认为就是说目前民间呃"},{"start":31319.045,"end":31338.144,"text":"还是有一些不同的声音那我们应该要更谨慎的去衡量我们社会的接受度然后跟人民的接受度然后有共识了之后再来讨论相关的一些专辑那所以我们建议在以行政院版本第一条的未婚女性哦"},{"start":31338.564,"end":31358.437,"text":"我們建議修正為單身女性後以第一條為健全人工生殖之發展保障人工生殖子女 受訴配偶受訴單身女性及捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫理健康及經營家庭生活的權利特制定本法我們建議以這樣的條文通過 以上"},{"start":31360.049,"end":31382.574,"text":"好 第一張總則就院版而已嘛各位 還有 怎樣 還有意見都沒有 對啊 我們是要討論總則喔 張明應該各位都沒有人提出是不是我們就尊重 遵照行政院所提的這個張明 好不好 好好 可以啦 那我們就依照行政院慢著 慢著 他剛剛唸那一堆是總則的立法說明欄嗎"},{"start":31387.159,"end":31389.49,"text":"他現在是唸第一條不是總則喔"},{"start":31391.721,"end":31416.01,"text":"那是署長是不是有誤會了我們在處理第一章 署長剛才講到第一條啊你現在在講總則所以我們是處理總則啊 他是要自己寫寫量度好啦總則第一章 章名我們沒意見但第一條我們有意見第一條我們等一下要處理我們現在是處理這個第一章的章名那各位沒意見我們就依照行政院提案通過"},{"start":31416.75,"end":31436.464,"text":"那繼續處理院盤第一條 那有我們所有委員幾乎都有提出第一條的修正草案 那修正動議有陳昭芝委員的第一案林淑媛的第六案好 請行政單位先做說明剛剛昭葦我已經碎碎念過了 我要不要再碎碎念一次你"},{"start":31441.656,"end":31465.497,"text":"可是你有沒有不要照稿念的其他的念法不要念一樣的內容另外念他要碎碎念再念一次不是啦同樣的叫我們再聽一遍我是不想要你要用點白話文講給大家聽一下請署長用白話文白話文就是我們認為目前社會對代孕沒有共識啦所以建議這個部分就暫維持行政院版本不列入代孕的部分"},{"start":31467.429,"end":31490.607,"text":"好 請周知委員來我們想基於這個你們愛飲用聯合國也罷愛飲用歐洲人權公約也罷生育權 家庭權尤其根據司法院解釋所謂的家庭權的保障範圍包含組成家庭的權利將有能力安育子女 無婚姻等等等等我們都要一併等等要納入"},{"start":31491.488,"end":31516.445,"text":"所以我們這一次就說請大家看民眾黨版的部分請麻煩看這個再修正動議全部都是再修正動議我們第一條為了健全人工生殖之發展保障人工生殖子女代理孕母 瘦數配偶 瘦數未婚女性與捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫理健康及經營家庭生活權利特制定本法"},{"start":31517.265,"end":31542.631,"text":"那我們這個寫的次序是有意義的我們第一個就是要保障的就是子女的最佳利益所以我們把這個保障人工生殖子女放在最前面那再來就是代理義母也是非常我們整個核心要保護的最重要的前兩個對象然後再來就是瘦素配偶的瘦素或女性等等所以我們基本上"},{"start":31543.931,"end":31565.222,"text":"我們的再增生修正動議的範圍包括需求代孕的家庭以及女女同志跟單身部分所以我們大概用這樣的精神來寫我們的這個修正動議以上好 謝謝請那個郭益勤委員 關老師再來再吳思堯委員再來林淑文委員"},{"start":31566.963,"end":31582.157,"text":"我非常注意順序好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝主席我再次強調這個單身女性跟女同志的配偶使用人工生殖跟代理育母完全是兩件不同的事情啦這個一定是要脫鉤的啦"},{"start":31583.098,"end":31600.378,"text":"那我刚刚讲过其实真的我们要先把风险最低然后共识最高的部分来做修法的一个方向那我想这个在野党直接把这个代孕直接放入然后刚刚还说这个是他们的核心我不知道大家还记不记得这个去年的9月"},{"start":31601.079,"end":31619.942,"text":"那這個高中的北區的學生有一個模擬作文考試說我的媽媽是代理孕母其實這已經引起很大的一個爭議了那這個部分其實我剛剛就講因為這個直接把代孕納入其實是忽略了整個所有的這個代孕者他的風險還有他原有的一個家庭的衝擊"},{"start":31620.643,"end":31631.636,"text":"同時這個不是只有15條9條的問題他留下了一大片的所大量的這個空白的授權你把別人的子宮納入在這個制度這點我沒有辦法接受好以上請吳氏有緣"},{"start":31636.701,"end":31665.928,"text":"好 謝謝主席其實第一條就是整個法案非常重要核心的重中之重因為我們要觸及的到底適用的對象是誰代孕是不是就被放進來了那果然剛剛這個民眾黨的委員的版本雖然是在修正動議但是就是大家都認為切莫不可的那四個字代理孕母就是被放入了這個條文的適用的對象"},{"start":31666.648,"end":31692.634,"text":"那我還是要再拿出這個手上的小板板非常清楚的說明我也整理了目前的20個版本從行政院版然後民眾黨團版國民黨團版乃至於個別委員加總起來20個版本那對於適用的對象有ABCD四種樣態第一大類女同性配偶有合法婚姻的第二類就是未婚女性"},{"start":31693.314,"end":31717.602,"text":"第三類無子宮或因病需代孕之配偶也就是代理孕母第四類是有子宮之跨性別者這個規範的提案的委員也比較少只有一案所以ABCD四種樣態的適用對象裡頭最有共識的20個版本當中有交疊的就是A跟B就是女同性配偶以及未婚女性"},{"start":31718.422,"end":31738.829,"text":"所以用這樣一個比較表非常清楚的就可以看得到什麼的適用對象是目前社會最有共識的那就毫無疑義是行政院版本所規範的所以有共識者先行行政院版本是最大公約數回應到第一條的修法那我們是堅決反對"},{"start":31740.37,"end":31764.831,"text":"就把社會最有爭議最有疑義而且在所有的版本當中也都欠缺共識的代理孕母就這樣塞進來了如果要專法其他的制度go ahead那硬要把它擠到人工生殖法來我想這就是一個核心的爭議議題那我們是沒有辦法接受那請大家一起來支持行政院的院版 謝謝好 請林淑穩委員"},{"start":31766.421,"end":31783.47,"text":"我現在要反對行政院院版的幾個字叫做經營家庭生活的權利為什麼經營家庭生活的權利要跟小孩有關"},{"start":31784.929,"end":31811.264,"text":"就是不需要小孩也可以經營家庭生活啊那你們所指的理由說這歐洲人權公約歐北共歐北共歐洲人權公約第八條看清楚人人人有權使他的個人私人和家庭生活和他的家庭和通信受到尊重這樣而已這樣而已"},{"start":31814.871,"end":31834.3,"text":"這裡沒有所謂的經營家庭生活的權利啊經營家庭生活沒有必要一定要綁著小孩啊多少夫妻結婚共同經營家庭生活人家就是選擇不要生小孩不是嗎台灣不就是這個狀態嗎很多嗎"},{"start":31837.236,"end":31858.718,"text":"所以家庭生活它不是一個權利事項不能夠跟生小孩綁在一起歐洲人權公約第8條也沒有這樣子寫所以我是建議說我們刪除經營家庭生活刪除行政院版本這幾個字"},{"start":31861.172,"end":31881.531,"text":"好 謝謝 陳昭志委員之後再換宇委員 謝謝剛剛有人提到說幾個版本最多的共識那我要再提醒國民黨的黨團的版本跟民眾黨黨團版本的交集這個是目前是2024代表最新的民意尤其經過大辦沒再承認一次再認證一次我們這兩個黨團的"},{"start":31883.593,"end":31904.525,"text":"共同的交集就是代理運母我們不是同一屆的立法委員嗎最新民意要不要讓你民眾黨新的兩年條款以後的新立委再來提民意代表我們所提出的版本是含有代理運母這就是異性戀的夫妻代孕的部分我先說明就是民眾黨版本跟國民黨版本我們"},{"start":31906.867,"end":31909.873,"text":"最靠近的交集就是異性戀待遇以上說明"},{"start":31917.67,"end":31944.253,"text":"這邊解釋一下那個我的版本原本是把不孕夫妻直接改成使用人工生殖者那主要是因為他這樣可以涵蓋就是瘦素配偶跟瘦素的單身女性那但是我剛聽到行政院是不是有把那個瘦素未婚女性的字眼改成瘦素單身女性是不是那這樣子我也覺得可以接受因為本來想提那個未婚的部分"},{"start":31944.753,"end":31968.291,"text":"那當然我覺得我的版本更簡潔但是這邊我不會堅持那剛剛林淑芬委員講的經營家庭生活之權利我也是覺得如果可以拿掉的話其實沒有必要放在這因為就是在這邊其實家庭到底是兩個人或者是一定要有小孩我想不需要在這邊特別的定義以上"},{"start":31969.192,"end":31994.268,"text":"好 無效委員完之後再林淑媛再林月琴委員好 剛剛通過第一輪大家的發言我現在是第二次發言那幾位委員的發言裡頭對於適用對象我想多數委員是不認同把代理孕母放進來的這是第一件事第二個呢 針對院版的後面這個經營家庭生活之權利是不是刪除那我認為這個也OK"},{"start":31996.429,"end":32021.125,"text":"我們不需要把這個把家庭生活之權利原本來其實確實這蠻手舊蠻八股的一個說法其實是確實如果刪除我沒有意見但我回憶一下陳肇智委員我是覺得 我很憤怒來衛環委員會不好意思我一直覺得衛環委員會最近一定比我們司法法治更好"},{"start":32021.986,"end":32045.237,"text":"我們司法法治有很多違憲之母你說這是事實這真的事實這稍微也有水準跟翁小玲真的是天差地別不過我倒是有點訝異我少數來衛環委員會學習陳昭志委員我再一次講省人工生殖法就是民生議案就舊法案論法案"},{"start":32046.878,"end":32072.923,"text":"別說禁地 別說跟別人進黨的事情不然都會反射到你自己身上 你會很害怕那個迴力標很快那剛剛我也覺得很訝異人工生殖法跟大罷免有什麼關係各位同仁你是聽到他在講大罷免我耳朵有沒有壞掉對啊 大家都聽到了大家都非常的訝異什麼叫大罷免之後然後國民黨跟民眾黨代表的是最新民意"},{"start":32074.144,"end":32097.438,"text":"不好意思我們都是同一屆的立法委員還沒有改選沒有改選我們是同一屆的立法委員就是這一屆的民意沒有什麼大罷免之後是最新民意這件事情如果要講最新民意呢那你們民眾黨兩年條款換了一批委員進來恐怕我覺得也許能夠代表一些不一樣的思維啦"},{"start":32098.118,"end":32124.03,"text":"所以賣個公敬低好我希望未還委員會的討論的專業跟水平讓我們司法法治委員會好來多多學習啊再講這些政治的語言拜託交資委員回力標會打到你自己身上所以就法案論法案就文字論文字行政院的版本最後經營家庭生活之權利那看看不理的意見要不我覺得把它刪除這確實也相對的是ok沒有問題的"},{"start":32125.683,"end":32152.728,"text":"好那邊先 不好意思沒關係我只有一句話說最新的民調最新的民調83%的人是反對代理運母合法化的所以我們是希望說大家其實不是反對其實你9條15條真的不夠啦所以你在這裡一定要給他塞進來這真的是欠缺周全啦好 葉秦委員完之後再趙志遠再春北議員 謝謝"},{"start":32155.205,"end":32177.86,"text":"我這邊很簡單的要來提出來就是說剛剛大家討論定義我認為因為民間團體也提出來是不是能夠涵掛到我們的跨性別的男性因為他過去女性然後他變跨性別男性的時候是不是可以取得所以我覺得這一併都可以拿來做討論以上請陳昭志委員"},{"start":32180.186,"end":32201.487,"text":"我想那個大家就是原來個別的想法一定沒有共識沒有共識所以這一條第一條請求保留好保留主席我們可不可以先處理那個先刪除經營家庭生活的權利那這一個大家有共識先處理然後那個代孕者這個我們再保留好"},{"start":32205.448,"end":32228.929,"text":"不他說同意啊可以嗎部長就是這個行政院版本的話建議就修正為健全人工生殖之發展保障人工生殖子女瘦數配偶瘦數單身女性及捐贈人之權益維護國民之倫理及健康特制定本法"},{"start":32230.915,"end":32245.295,"text":"對這樣子行政院版本同意改成這樣但是陳昭之委員的版本他有不同意見所以我們這一條也就是 蘇分委你強調的這個健康及經營家庭生活是權利你覺得如果"},{"start":32245.996,"end":32273.993,"text":"不需要放在這個地方 我可以接受因為我一直在看再修正冬雨 不好意思我們一直在看 而且再修正冬雨都是取字2024年行政院的版本的名詞好那因為主席就是這個如果說有這樣單條保留 就單條後面是刪除的但是這條還是得保留因為我們還是主張要將代理一母列入人工生殖法好請主 來陳比委員"},{"start":32277.779,"end":32304.452,"text":"好 我想要講一下就是關於民眾黨團的提案我們當然是不支持的因為代孕的議題真的是太複雜真的不應該就這樣隨便放進來但是我們當然尊重提案委員的想法那另外關於談到瘦數單身女性這件事情我當然可以理解我們當時在提這個版本的時候大家是對於婚姻關係上的存在與否視為單身這個是我們一般人都可以理解的"},{"start":32304.952,"end":32330.944,"text":"可是我們要講的是當我們決定把經營家庭生活之權利拿掉代表我們都認同現在是多元家庭或是多元伴侶的時代然後也確實有非常多這樣的狀況那有一個部分我們辦公室有想到當然就提出來大家討論就是關於他可能有伴侶但是他沒有結婚的女性實質上他在法理上當然還是屬於單身可是在實質生活上他應該是非單身那這樣的人他到底可不可以使用"},{"start":32332.625,"end":32350.5,"text":"人工生殖她到底歸不歸單女那這個部分我們本來是希望建議說寫成一個叫做無法律上婚姻關係的女性那當然這樣寫比較饒口可是我想我還是提出一個提醒那當然我們還是尊重現在目前這個寫法就是瘦數單身女性的部分好 以上謝謝好 謝謝所以第一條各位還是有意見就好"},{"start":32358.393,"end":32370.521,"text":"那要保留好那我們就保留好謝謝好時間到了好謝謝各位委員今天也算是跟昨天申請法差不多"},{"start":32371.698,"end":32400.469,"text":"選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選選"},{"start":32400.902,"end":32407.684,"text":"好 現在做一下決議做一下決議 能夠申請修正草案等二十案 三位審查完畢令擇期繼續審查本日會議到此結束 現在散會 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我們先介紹在場的我們的委員同仁第一位陳永康委員另外是羅美玲委員"},{"start":1561.597,"end":1586.31,"text":"我們今天列席的官員本席先宣告相關的出缺勤或請假的情形第一位我們今天是顧立雄部長因為他禮拜四有軍談所以我們禮拜四尋往曆我們都會準假但今天顧部長會盡量在我們委員會待到12點才離開比原定請假時候還在往後延後另外"},{"start":1587.991,"end":1602.663,"text":"國安局蔡明彥局長因為有公務那跟林佳雄部長兩位的公務應該是雷同所以兩位今天上午是請假本席給予准假向同仁宣告再來是"},{"start":1605.765,"end":1631.781,"text":"海巡署的署長今天也是公務請假本席同意准假另外外交部亞太司、亞非司、國和司台日關係協會的主管不可列席請假請由副主管戴維出席以上是今天的假單那今天列席的官員名單首先是我們國防部長顧立雄"},{"start":1634.554,"end":1663.263,"text":"副參謀總長執行官黃志偉上將我們的常務次長楊吉隆中將權動署副署長兼執行長林純美女士總督察長是總督察長盧建忠參事石文龍政務辦公室主任孫立芳"},{"start":1665.868,"end":1692.16,"text":"政治專局局長史順文政治專局保防安全處處長簡迎紅軍備局局長林文祥主計局局長謝其賢軍醫局局長蔡建松站規司司長黃文啟"},{"start":1696.055,"end":1716.093,"text":"資歸司司長藍靜婷法律事務司人權處處長余建昌整評司司長苗慧芬股房採購事主任趙雅萍人事參謀次長是次長侯嘉倫情報參謀次長是次長謝日昇"},{"start":1725.031,"end":1742.8,"text":"作戰及計劃參謀次長是次長連志威後勤參謀次長是次長李鳳翔通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長謝俊山訓次是次長郭俊德陸軍參謀長陳建義海軍參謀長邱俊榮空軍參謀長李慶然"},{"start":1756.36,"end":1783.96,"text":"後備指揮部參謀長薛淵泉縣指部參謀長文念忠陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長梁永坤資通電軍指揮部參謀長周文祥軍情局執行長李永康電展室執行長林振偉"},{"start":1786.257,"end":1814.699,"text":"國防大學教育長李承忠中科院院長李士強以上國防部所屬單位外交部由政務司長陳明祺亞太司副司長林鴻勛亞非司副司長陳永博歐洲司司長黃軍耀拉美加勒比海司鄭麗晨"},{"start":1816.923,"end":1842.428,"text":"北美司司長王良玉條法司司長李憲章國際組織司司長孫簡元國和司副司長陳敬一國船司司長張秀珍研社會主任柯良玉公眾外交協調會執行長肖光偉"},{"start":1846.188,"end":1865.686,"text":"國會事務辦公室副執行長關友鈞台日協的副秘書長林玉慧領務局局長鄭振勇國安局由副局長簡華慶"},{"start":1868.496,"end":1894.065,"text":"那我們勤工單位按照相關法令規定我們只宣告相關主管管那西部名單我們就不介紹再來是海委會副署長謝慶清巡防組組長洪柏昇情報組組長蘇全成特別行動資源中心主任林天佑"},{"start":1896.837,"end":1918.929,"text":"好 以上是相關的不管是請假或出席列席的官員名單那本日會議 補充介紹許曉新委員本日會議邀請國防部 外交部 國家安全局海洋委員會海巡署報告中共近期對台軍演之軍事威脅延期國際情勢應對及國安應處作為並備質詢首先我們請國防部部長顧部長上台報告"},{"start":1936.843,"end":1963.799,"text":"主席 各位委員先進今天非常榮幸應邀到大院委員會進行專案報告承蒙各位委員對於中共此事對台針對性軍演及國軍應處作為的關切與指導再次表達誠摯的謝意面對中共以聯合戰備警巡發射進航區及從事實彈射擊等"},{"start":1965.799,"end":1990.013,"text":"威脅活動高度挑釁台海區域海空情勢安全今天應要致大院執行專報其實各位委員能夠了解在中共不斷擴張軍事威脅的嚴峻環境下國軍軍人妥適應處確保國家安全與區域穩定接續由作戰級計畫參謀次長連志威中將"},{"start":1993.538,"end":2006.999,"text":"實施中共近期對台軍演之軍事威脅延期國際情勢應對及國安應處作為專題專案報告敬請各位委員先進指導與支持謝謝"},{"start":2014.266,"end":2022.498,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 我是作機制次長連志威現在由我就中共近期對台軍演之軍事威脅延期國際情勢應對以及國安應處作為的專案報告"},{"start":2027.594,"end":2052.124,"text":"只是中共宣稱因為美國批准111億美元的對台軍售案所以在台周邊從事對台針對性的軍演企圖藉由軍事演習與實彈射擊外交 輿論 網路等手段演練對台的作戰預案加大對我的軍事威懾與壓迫力度且嚴重影響區域主要的海空航運"},{"start":2053.393,"end":2077.708,"text":"本次軍演共軍於台海周邊劃射演習區共艦及海警船駛入我臨街區並派遣機艦從事戰備警巡令藉由遠程多管火箭的實彈射擊並用新戰文宣攻勢以及心理戰認知作戰扭曲事實意圖打擊我軍民士氣製造我社會的不安"},{"start":2079.212,"end":2089.906,"text":"在軍事威脅的分析中共自114年12月29日起在台灣及外離島周邊海空域聲稱演練海空戰備警訓"},{"start":2091.873,"end":2113.099,"text":"奪取綜合治權 藥港藥育封控以及外線立體射阻等科目實際觀察其具體活動 載重報告如後首先是12月29日 在上午7點30分中共東部戰區宣稱在台海周邊的海空域進行對台針對性的軍演"},{"start":2116.021,"end":2132.486,"text":"共軍各型的主輔戰機以及無人機計有78批130架次從事戰備警巡其中的53批90架次逾越海峽中線進入我北部 中線 西南以及東部空域活動"},{"start":2133.953,"end":2162.98,"text":"共建則有14艘漁業中線進入我北部中線西南及東部的應變區其中11艘駛入我臨街區令海警船8艘漁業中線均駛入我臨街區在12月30號上午的8點到下午的6點中共於台海周邊開設了7處進航區並宣布在上述的時段將在台海周邊海空域進行實彈射擊"},{"start":2164.656,"end":2193.663,"text":"其次在9點以及下午的1點共軍分兩波次由福建的平潭以及石獅向我北部海域 西南的海域射擊多光火箭 合計有27枚共軍的各型主輔戰機以及無人機是42批77架次從事戰備警巡其中 計有20批35架次漁業海峽中線進入我北部 中線以及西南空域活動"},{"start":2195.097,"end":2213.736,"text":"共艦及海警船兵力則持續於我應變區及臨階區內活動在12月31號 除原14艘共艦外 並增加3艘由西太平洋駛入我東部應變區 既有共艦17艘 海警船8艘在應變區內活動"},{"start":2215.953,"end":2239.671,"text":"到了下午的1800時 中共的東部戰區宣布對台軍演任務完成另自1800時起 共艦 海警船陸續駛離台海的應變區返港那去115年的1月1日 中午的12點台海中邊共艦數量維持六艘 從事戰備警巡"},{"start":2240.971,"end":2263.883,"text":"總上 此次軍演共軍派遣竹斧戰機210架次共艦17艘 海警船8艘與我周邊的海空域從事針對性的軍演除加大對我軍事威脅與痛喝並用法律戰 心理戰及認知作戰意圖動搖我社會民心接續報告國軍的應處作為"},{"start":2266.308,"end":2283.546,"text":"中共此次针对性的军演具高度挑衅及冒进之行为,严重破坏台海周边区域的和平稳定,也对国际往来的航运、贸易以及飞航安全形成了重大的危害与干扰。"},{"start":2284.877,"end":2309.025,"text":"國軍持續強化戰備整備的作為積極應處共軍各項襲擾的行動以及軍事威懾確保我領土主權以及區域穩定具體作為說明如何首先是在聯合勤監政的部分此次針對性軍演前本部已經掌握關鍵的預警徵喉完成共軍威脅評估的分析並測定國軍應處的作為"},{"start":2311.567,"end":2322.055,"text":"整合了各勤奸爭系統的情資全程掌握共軍軍事活動的態樣並且評估其戰略作戰戰術層級的當前態勢跟未來的發展與預應共軍情勢的威脅接著在國軍的應變機制"},{"start":2330.475,"end":2348.927,"text":"本部平時及依照敵情的關鍵預警徵喉已經在國軍的經常戰備時期突發狀況處置規定律定有各項敵情威脅模式跟洗腦的類型必使各單位具以妥適派遣海空兵力來即時應處避利威脅升溫的預應"},{"start":2350.993,"end":2368.783,"text":"此次中共宣告與台海周邊執行針對性的軍演化設禁航區等複合式的軍事行動時國防部立即開設應變中心並依照聯合作戰指揮機制下達立即備戰操演以及指揮所的開設掌握全班敵情威脅的動態"},{"start":2370.168,"end":2394.693,"text":"另外同時國軍派遣海空軍機艦及時應處同步整合了海巡署的艦船採並航的監控同時針對海警船及共艦襲擾來實施有效的對應另外共軍實施實彈射擊的期間我防空飛彈部隊針對來襲的威脅以及彈著點經全程的監控並保持高度的警戒"},{"start":2395.942,"end":2414.235,"text":"三軍的地面戰備部隊則是依令來實施戰備徵詢編組各級的指揮機構通訊指管的系統營區應變安全維護戰鬥以及勤務支援等各項的應變兵力依照既定的計畫立即完成應變整備的措施"},{"start":2415.319,"end":2439.658,"text":"另外各部隊將敵侵擾的行動納為實戰化訓練的想定並實施聯合作戰計畫的研練這重點在關鍵基礎設施重要軍事目標的防護藉由執行戰備裝載 疏散 機動的整備以及主角設置等任務的規劃來維持部隊高戰備快速反應的能力嚴防共軍由嚴轉戰"},{"start":2441.394,"end":2458.834,"text":"中共此次軍演以複合式多面向的襲擾 脅迫等威脅造成區域安全與穩定上的風險政府以及國軍均能在有節 有序 有管制的因應作為下妥適應處第三個部分在戰略溝通"},{"start":2459.98,"end":2474.249,"text":"中共此次針對性的軍演以違反聯合國憲章第二條第四款不得使用威脅或武力的原則本部呼籲民族有盟國家共同譴責中共破壞台海區域和平穩定"},{"start":2475.489,"end":2504.648,"text":"另外,本次美、日、韓、非、澳、紐、英、法、德、加、立陶宛、瓜地馬拉以及歐盟等,也以嚴正聲明表示,維持台海和平穩定對區域及全球安全繁榮具有戰略的重要性,反對以武力或是脅迫片面改變現況,對於我方維護區域穩定的負責任態度均表示肯定。"},{"start":2505.669,"end":2527.128,"text":"另外為有效的應對共軍任志作戰資訊的傳閃本部統籌規劃三軍部隊威脅應處以及備戰的實況影片並整合運用部會政策宣傳的管道適時發布於國內外各社群平台使國人瞭解共軍威脅的太陽以及國軍應處的作為以彰顯我國捍衛主權的決心"},{"start":2531.192,"end":2551.991,"text":"最後國軍秉持不升高衝突不挑起爭端的指導持續強化部隊的聯合作戰訓練以具備全時高戰備能力為目標沉著冷靜應對共軍各項形態的威脅堅定守護國家主權民主憲政體制以及維護區域和平穩定"},{"start":2553.092,"end":2577.647,"text":"感謝大院各位委員的指導面對工軍各項軍事威脅的行動國軍積極建立可視的戰力持續規劃籌購各項新制武器裝備此次強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例及後續預算的編列跟獲得對建構維持和平的國防實力至關重要請大院給予支持以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":2580.37,"end":2586.622,"text":"好 謝謝國防部的說明報告接下來請外交部陳明祺次長上台報告"},{"start":2595.629,"end":2610.465,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早那麼感謝委員會邀請外交部前來就中共近期對台軍演之軍事威脅延期國際情勢應對以及國安應處作為進行專案報告並被質詢書面報告請參閱那麼以下就重點來做報告"},{"start":2619.294,"end":2643.015,"text":"共軍在去年12月29日宣布發動環台軍演之後本部立刻啟動應變標準作業程序包括前後三度發布新聞稿及時嚴正譴責中方挑釁以及駁斥他的謬論並且兩度通電外管立即盡洽駐在國行政以及立法部門"},{"start":2643.976,"end":2671.81,"text":"公開譴責中國片面挑釁行為並且支持台海的和平穩定到目前為止一共有17個理念相近的國家和邦交國行政部門以及這個歐盟對外事務部以及立法部門歐洲議會與這個對中政策跨國議會聯盟IPAC做出回應許多國家的主流媒體都有所報導或評論"},{"start":2673.71,"end":2684.659,"text":"這些國家的行政部門回應的具體內容大多會提及支持台海和平穩定和平解決以及反對武力或脅迫片面改變現狀"},{"start":2687.27,"end":2712.252,"text":"首先那麼從2022年這個美國時任聯邦眾議院議長的裴若曦女士訪台開始到去年4月這個演習為止那麼歷次中國對台的軍演那麼美國兩任政府都發表聲明表達嚴正的關切那麼針對此次的中國軍演國務院在元月一號"},{"start":2713.713,"end":2742.261,"text":"發表聲明支持我國在印太方面那麼日本、韓國、菲律賓等第一島鏈國家以及澳大利亞、紐西蘭等國家先後為我國發聲顯示他們對於區域安全跟共同利益的重視其中日本政府雖承受近期日中關係緊張的壓力仍然在12月31日發表高度有我的聲明菲律賓則守勢由國防部長"},{"start":2743.426,"end":2744.78,"text":"據民發表聲明祝我"},{"start":2746.55,"end":2772.164,"text":"歐洲國家和歐盟也相繼發聲包括英國、法國、德國、立陶宛等歐洲國家以及歐盟對外事務部 先後公開聲援助我相關內容除了提及台海和平穩定的重要性之外更強調反對以武力或脅迫片面改變現狀明確反對中國武力挑釁"},{"start":2773.525,"end":2794.88,"text":"上述發展都能夠顯現我國持續透過外交管道呼籲國際社會重視中國以武力威脅改變台海和平現狀那麼以實現對其有利的所謂新常態New Normal這樣的一個那麼這個論述已經逐漸為各國採納"},{"start":2799.96,"end":2826.52,"text":"那麼在國際評論的重點上面那麼中國的動機評論報導那麼中國的動機可能包括抗議美國近期宣布的對台巨額軍售宣洩對日本首相高市早苗之前涉台言論的不滿轉移中國內部的民怨那麼演練對台遊演轉戰以及對我政府極限施壓等等"},{"start":2827.549,"end":2847.745,"text":"外交部也觀察到這次的軍演範圍是近年最大對我民生以及國際航運的影響最廣更是史上最接近我領土以及水域的一次透露中國藉此演練 遊演轉戰以及展現反制外部勢力干涉的能力"},{"start":2849.151,"end":2867.3,"text":"對台灣的認知戰也是本次的軍演重點中國事出一事派出無人機拍攝的俯瞰台北101等多組影像以及照片暗示以瀕臨我境企圖動搖我民心士氣以及民眾對我政府及國軍的信任"},{"start":2868.579,"end":2896.781,"text":"在相關後續的因應作為上面針對中國持續的加強對台施壓企圖片面改變台海現狀挑戰以規則為基礎的國際秩序那麼台灣將持續跟有盟國家密切合作共同遏止中國藉機擴權並將加強與有盟國家間的情誌交換以利事前掌握以及妥善因應面對中國持續挑戰"},{"start":2898.223,"end":2926.554,"text":"本部除了以指示各管處持續與請理念相近的國家以及邦交國各界公開發言支持台灣以外那麼也將配合我國政府論述基調加強向國際媒體宣傳我國的立場以反制中國對台認知戰以上還請委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝外交部我們接下來請國安局檢副局長上台報告"},{"start":2938.154,"end":2964.837,"text":"主席各位先進各位女士先生大家好非常感謝大院安排本局列席進行中共近期對台軍演之軍事威脅的演習國際情勢應對及國安應處的作為的專題報告請就中共軍演的動機演習期間對我富士威脅的態樣以及相關的內容向大院報告一"},{"start":2965.885,"end":2982.737,"text":"中共發動軍演的動機首先是反制國際民主的勇猛挺台美國白宮在去年12月4日公布國家安全的戰略報告強調美國核心利益並將印太地區定位於全球競爭的優先戰區"},{"start":2986.657,"end":3000.066,"text":"強調維持關鍵航道的開放強化美軍印太潛資的部署及盟友共同分擔防務等三大核心方向並於在去年的12月17日宣布"},{"start":3001.127,"end":3026.088,"text":"总额逾超过111亿美元的对台军售展现军售常态化与安全的承诺令美国战争部发布了中国的军力报告中指出中共试图建立对台战略决胜的军事力量严重威胁台海安全此外 中共持续针对我外交 军事 法律 经贸 认知等作战"},{"start":3027.386,"end":3039.199,"text":"做複合式的脅迫美、歐、日、G7等民主國家相繼的發表聲明反對使用武力脅迫來改變台海的現狀"},{"start":3041.363,"end":3070.477,"text":"日本首相高士早茅在去年的11月7日更首度在國會闡明日本因應台外有事的立場反映台海安全牽動印太地區及國際秩序的穩定去年底中共發動對台的無預警的針對性軍演具有在國際場域反制民主有謀挺台的政治意圖接下來是轉移中共內部的問題焦點當前中共"},{"start":3072.095,"end":3088.674,"text":"國內經濟的動能疲軟去年1至11月投資衰退率2.6個百分比外商投資減少7.5個百分比加上青年失業率高勞工欠薪承擴升溫導致社會治理的風險升高"},{"start":3090.424,"end":3114.895,"text":"另外美國戰爭部在中國軍力的報告中即示警中共是以涉外鬥爭轉移國內經濟困境的責任中共舉行對台性的針對性軍演可將民眾對國內的不滿引導至抗擊外部的勢力干涉及民族主義的情緒來包裝對台軍演的合理的一個行動"},{"start":3116.403,"end":3141.348,"text":"三、渲染軍力未受數灘的影響去年中共全國兩會後習近平擴大整肅在軍中的貪腐並在10月四中全會前開除中央軍委會副主席何偉東軍委政治工作部主任苗華等九名上將的黨籍及軍籍該案前年全軍約三分之二的上將"},{"start":3143.106,"end":3171.132,"text":"此外這波軍中的整肅導致大量的中少將遭到調查及懲處軍內職位的懸缺以低代高引發待繼斷層的疑慮連帶影響三大戰區的實彈考核全軍戰略演習等年度大型的操演中共刻意藉九三閱兵渲染的何威哲以及福建號、四川號等新興船艦的戰力"},{"start":3172.888,"end":3191.038,"text":"並且推進遼寧號海南號等編隊從事西太及南太平洋的遠航渲染軍力的建設成果年末更藉由對台的針對性經驗莫多對我國內外展現解放軍戰力不受貪腐的影響"},{"start":3192.674,"end":3208.805,"text":"二 演習期間複合式的威脅態樣首先報告的是操作軍演與揮帶的施壓恫嚇中共刻意以中英文公告軍演渲染在台灣周邊開設7處航空禁航區並規劃實彈射擊試圖干擾我國際及國內的海運安全軍演期間中共動員"},{"start":3220.293,"end":3226.102,"text":"共軍的基建、海警等兵力同步對我本島、外島進行所謂的威台施壓"},{"start":3227.998,"end":3254.498,"text":"另外東部戰區分階段報導封鎖打擊登陸等不同的演練科目以及對我周邊實施實射PCH-191多管火箭且公布影片進行宣傳模擬針對我的恫嚇效果二 運用多元的手法遂行認知作戰演習期間中共運用官媒宣覽"},{"start":3255.646,"end":3276.12,"text":"影片、剪接、AI生成造假、盜用帳號、學者複合、網路水軍等推薦的手法、擴大偵訊操作。根據國安團隊的情報收報,在去年的11月29日至今年的1月2日,中共傳閃於網路社群平台徵印訊息計19,000余則,其中異常帳號799組。"},{"start":3281.502,"end":3296.258,"text":"相较过去军演,此次致重于AI生成影音以及国际外宣,企图借侦讯操作削弱国人对自我防卫的信心,并弱化国际友盟挺台的立场。"},{"start":3298.004,"end":3322.86,"text":"三 發動妄害 侵擾對我政府的機構網路去年以來 印太國家 北約 歐盟 網安機構與情報單位已多次指出中共系全球網路安全威脅的主要來源中共網軍對我資安侵擾逐年上升由在共軍對我海空侵擾 重要演訓等時機同步發動妄害的襲擾根據我國安團隊的情報統計"},{"start":3329.888,"end":3346.734,"text":"演習首日清老的次數及高達208萬次較前一日上升演習第二日再擴增至209萬次凸顯中共借軍演對我晚安洗腦之操作模式三節語"},{"start":3348.442,"end":3374.233,"text":"工具發動對台的針對性軍演並加大對我複合式的勤勞不僅影響台海安全一小關印太地區甚至全球經濟及供應鏈的穩定建議國際民主有謀關切印太及第一島鏈的安全我國安情報團隊將掌握基先針對中共的軍事行動及印太的安全情勢"},{"start":3375.573,"end":3401.753,"text":"並加強與我有謀的情報合作增進早期預警的圖像相助政府決策及應變整備以維護台海安全守護台灣民主的體制以上報告敬請大院委員先進不令指導並持續針對本局工作給予大力支持謝謝好 謝謝 請回接下來進行海委會海巡署謝副署長的報告"},{"start":3409.79,"end":3429.708,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 各位女士先生今天很榮幸應邀列席大院貴委員會就中共近期對台軍演資軍事威脅分析 國際情勢應對跟國安應對作為僅就海巡署夜館部分進行摘要報告首先報告情勢分析"},{"start":3430.569,"end":3442.693,"text":"在中國海警局參演目的跟角色部分海巡組長說中國海警自12月29日也就是上禮拜一開始及組織艦艇編隊在台灣周邊海域跟馬祖金門烏丘"},{"start":3448.315,"end":3472.42,"text":"還有東沙附近海域展開其所謂綜合執法巡查並且宣稱此舉是依一個中國原則對台灣跟附屬島嶼依法管控行動而中共運用依法管控巡查等語彙建構其管轄權的主張並納入協同軍演的海上執法行動第二"},{"start":3473.55,"end":3493.977,"text":"本次演習有13艘海警船在縣市水域內清澆首先報告在臺灣本島部分在臺灣本島部分我們有掌握8艘海警船針對我四大港口進行模擬隔離太陽並進入我臨界區也就是兩岸條例所稱的縣市水域嚴重侵害我國主權"},{"start":3495.057,"end":3522.726,"text":"第二 在馬祖金門烏丘水域部分中國海警在馬祖跟烏丘各部署兩艘海警船並進入我水域第三 在東沙海域部分中國海警船在東沙海域派遣一艘海警船進入限制水域繞行這是首次在軍演期間連動在東沙海域行動第三 有關特點跟威脅分析"},{"start":3524.126,"end":3552.33,"text":"首先報告本次軍演中共首度將部分進航區劃入我方臨海基線內海警船在二列航海上也配合解放軍軍艦在臺灣周邊進行海空聯合演訓也在我外離島連動繞行侵擾並進入臺灣本島限制水域還有馬祖金門烏丘禁止水域凸顯多點跨域連動壓迫的行動特點"},{"start":3553.462,"end":3573.252,"text":"第二 海巡署另外收報軍演期間中國海警透過社群影音傳達惡猴海盜威脅攔截載運海馬斯火箭的長榮霍倫這個消息已經查證是錯假訊息意在塑造我方遭孤立的假象接下來報告國際情勢應對作為"},{"start":3575.433,"end":3593.105,"text":"而海巡組除了掌握相關媒訊以外另外也則由派駐美日非的聯絡官跟駐在國家建立24小時聯繫窗口即時通報跟分享情資掌握整體國際情勢海域動態另外"},{"start":3594.005,"end":3607.38,"text":"美、澳、英、歐盟等民主國家均表達反對任何以武力或脅迫改變現狀的行動並強調台海穩定對全球的重要性最後報告本署的應處作為"},{"start":3608.982,"end":3626.524,"text":"海巡署在第一時間成立應變中心,並召開應變會議,立即調度艦船艇在各海域對應配合軍演的13艘中國海警船。這13艘分別在臺灣本島海域8艘,外離島5艘,並派遣待命艦船艇支援備變。"},{"start":3627.705,"end":3646.328,"text":"另外,在10月30日中共東部戰區14火箭彈射擊期間,這個期間是從早上8點到下午6點,海巡署有效執行各項航岸保護措施,確保各海域商貨輪及漁船維持正常航行與作業不受影響。"},{"start":3647.589,"end":3671.281,"text":"最後 為防範中共可能運用非涉地帶戰術封鎖隔離台灣海上運輸影響我國家安全跟經濟發展海巡署將與相關單位密切掌握台灣周邊海域情勢妥適調派勤務部署並協同國防部採取應對作法確保國家主權跟海域安全以上報告 敬請各位委員先進指導 謝謝"},{"start":3673.032,"end":3692.295,"text":"好 謝謝請回現在開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記如果各位委員有臨時提案請在10點半前提出我們11點會是會議情形來做處理現在請第一位進行詢答的委員陳永康委員"},{"start":3711.35,"end":3714.741,"text":"主席有請國防部顧部長以及國安局副局長"},{"start":3723.012,"end":3752.316,"text":"是 陈委员部长早安早这一次中共的军演我们的国防部以及国安团队确实能够掌握预应以及如何因应以及适当的处置也避免任何的冲突产生对国军跟国安团队在这个里面的努力本席表达肯定但是后面仍然有一部分我提出建言以及部分可以做检讨精进的地方"},{"start":3754.318,"end":3770.684,"text":"各位看這個圖這是一個東北亞整個大區域的圖這是要一個宏觀的格局首先我們就問因為外交部 國安局都有很關心美國的國家安全戰略"},{"start":3772.113,"end":3795.71,"text":"那我们在这边就提出来就是希望我们的团队在我们的政府这个任内啊能够推出我们的官方版的国家安全战略因为你的个我们自己主体的价值跟定位要由官方版来叙述那外国人才来评断而不是用别人的论述在第一岛链你的角色提过台湾几次六次八次"},{"start":3796.511,"end":3824.622,"text":"我們希望國家安全戰略官方版一定要在這個任內出來這樣子跨部會的橫向協商大家承擔的責任它不是百分比式的因為資源有限反應的時間有限最主要還是人力有限從這個圖上我們把中共的超遠區套上去各位看這是中共的天波雷達超視距的涵蓋的範圍就是等於說從第一島鏈到第二島鏈的中間"},{"start":3826.098,"end":3835.676,"text":"这先不谈卫星的预警这一次中共发布的区域我们套在上去了对应你的临海基线临海24里临界区"},{"start":3837.074,"end":3861.209,"text":"这个中间的那个园区因为受限这个软体它不能放大实际上这是12月30号当天演习当天海上商船的状况有没有影响有轻微的影响因为从早上动巴动动到18动动它只是前24小时通知所以商船只能航线的略微修正但是大的航线不会改变"},{"start":3862.318,"end":3886.458,"text":"这个时候呢我们可以发现了中共这是一个灰色地带的讲穿了就是心理战媒体战网络战最后就是利用国际法他的定义不清的部分他取利不恰当法律战他玩的是一个围棋对我们来讲就是一种消耗战士气上给你沉沙但是我们可以看到的"},{"start":3888.086,"end":3905.539,"text":"真正的影响啊不是台湾一个因此周边对我们友好的国家每一个国家只要仰赖海上交通线的运补能源基本材料进出通通受影响即便是在演习的当天中国大陆的503航线也没有飞了"},{"start":3906.65,"end":3936.136,"text":"他自己的国际航线连接国内503没有飞而且海上的航线有没有影响有些许影响因为他只有10小时他能不能把它变成100小时那是手段但是他明显的不敢这么做所以我们对刚才这个提出报告我们把你的文字整理变成逻辑框架这个中共演习的目标设定同样呢对应我们的国军使命做的事情"},{"start":3937.554,"end":3953.693,"text":"我们统统把它做成的这个框架那么反制的建议也列举出来了我们再看下一张图这张图就是海图套叠了临海基线临海24里临间区海峡中线训练空域"},{"start":3954.912,"end":3983.669,"text":"然后呢再把中共的超远区套上去这个是超远区并不是封锁区在这一次过程中间呢刚才海巡署讲的很好中共啊用的是什么他是用中共的海警针对特别的船他不是封锁不是blockade他叫做cursive quarantine他有隔离他可以临检他针对什么目标呢如果未来要演习可能找一条你的这个"},{"start":3984.878,"end":3998.486,"text":"天然氣船剛才講了中共用假訊息說是發布長榮的被臨檢事實上在這個過程中間我每兩小時用這個公開的軟體open source"},{"start":4000.137,"end":4028.528,"text":"去追踪每一條船因為根據IMO的規定你每一條船上你都有你的代碼也知道國旗懸掛也知道你的目的也知道你的裝載所以它可以針對性的選擇船而不是在這個超遠區叫做封鎖在這個情況下我們當然也標註了國軍講的導彈火箭發射的位置落點出來了這個東西實際上是一個心理戰"},{"start":4029.946,"end":4058.437,"text":"完全是利用错误的讯息误导希望影响我们的民心士气那么可以肯定的就是国军海巡在这个地方对我们的主权的维护寸步不让但是我希望在这对外的媒体的说明上面将能够强调这个区是超演区不是封锁区另外就是说有演转战这是一个心理战"},{"start":4059.696,"end":4088.255,"text":"其实我们过去跟美方的协调都知道战略预警如果美方对这个地区会发生潜在的冲突30天前可能就发布旅行禁止命令那么美方有一个很明确的手法就是AIT对于台湾的情势掌握他会在某个时间内要对美国驻台的居留的具有身份的人要做点名也就是说他可以告诉中共明确的告诉"},{"start":4089.301,"end":4117.848,"text":"两岸的冲突美国是第三方根据国防部这个国这个所谓的国际法还有这个联合国的宪章啊第三方的要撤侨对方不能够阻止所以那个是一个预警时间也就是说如果AIT都没有宣布要撤侨背上美国国务院啊印太战略司令部的指导这个油盐转战是一个小小规模的军事冲突而不变成一个大规模的进犯"},{"start":4119.441,"end":4138.997,"text":"这个是今天早上7点我们把所有的通过商传的位置我用这个做举例就是说在演习过程的10个钟头我每两小时有做一次更新套叠对于冲突是多少对于我们未来在媒体上的运用可以做明确的说明我们就问了"},{"start":4140.256,"end":4164.468,"text":"我們都講要支持國防未來要台灣之盾請問未來負責台灣之盾這個聯合系統的整合合約是哪一個單位你有設定目標方法手段預期現況關鍵很多限制因素就是全程很多的律師必須要參與那這個影響到什麼呢就是剛才提到的"},{"start":4165.39,"end":4192.365,"text":"特别条例一照2500亿那美方已经公布了这个3500亿军售那还剩下9000亿请问这个9000亿里面有多少是军售尚未公布还有其他的就是直接商售因为军售融资跟总统特别法案不会纳在这个特别预算条例里面也就是说9000亿里面可能有一半以上甚至到70%"},{"start":4194.687,"end":4223.273,"text":"可能是商售那商售你的合約沒有談你價錢怎麼估你的履約督導執行這個面要後續要更細心的來協助最主要的就是說我們在台灣的投資占比多少希望這個一兆2500億不只是在美國的軍售商售要能夠強化在國內的投資"},{"start":4224.743,"end":4236.134,"text":"因为这次我们提到了所谓台湾之盾美国的厂商也有跟我们中科院不同案子签了所谓的MOU"},{"start":4237.677,"end":4265.8,"text":"如果IBCS是军售它就不包括寄转如果商售就可以谈寄转那就跟我们界面整合上比较有效但军售是完全用它的algorithm你没有办法寄转这些细节我就不做说明我们看一下我们这个图IBCS是指帮美国陆军整合所有地面防空火力但是现在我们的防空是以空军主导所以IBCS可能是空军来"},{"start":4266.382,"end":4267.438,"text":"做最佳的界面"},{"start":4269.724,"end":4295.962,"text":"我們沒有太空的武器我們的衛星軌道或者是channel是有限的那現在就是整合三軍了不管是你的環展不管是海軍的這個所謂的連程或是陸軍的位置原來都是訓安系統這個東西就像我們的F16一路提升提升過程中間有部分已經做了更新有部分還沒有完成整合"},{"start":4296.562,"end":4315.658,"text":"未来的台湾之盾要把这个东西整合进去所以上次跟部长做了建言就是C5ISRT因为包括你海马斯跟机动雄风你对目获你要交换情资所以我们看到的是多轨追踪情资融合网络整合复合图像"},{"start":4316.991,"end":4342.798,"text":"泡上了超演區強調國軍強化戰力尤其是總統講了台灣之盾這個台灣之盾不是把過去的能力不要全部用心的是更新過去整合強化未來的系統最後我要解釋一下去中心化不是你的目標是你的方法手段的選項第一個你要趕快確立接戰規則"},{"start":4344.389,"end":4349.568,"text":"授權責任區這個必須納入國防大學子參教育法律也就是說"},{"start":4350.765,"end":4378.7,"text":"对于我们所有作战区不管是空作部 舰则部 滨海作战指挥部陆军各作战区的指挥官旁边要有一个法务官了解国际法 武装冲突法这个是可以强化的美军的各个作战司令部印太司令部 中央指挥部它旁边因为美方是一个全球性的所以它有一个大使级的顾问也有一个法律顾问那这个东西要摆进去另外就是"},{"start":4379.66,"end":4406.719,"text":"军总的专业跟维保作业要纳到各作战区要协助不然很难讲共同图像不只是COP还包括战术图像所以最后我们强化战场指导的建议将指挥中心的关键节点形成模组套件以及可替代性的重组性的网状架构维持中心功能仍然存在只是位置不同"},{"start":4408.05,"end":4418.964,"text":"所以骨幹地下化關鍵支點機動化另外就是說有線的微波的機動台的未來增加衛星的軌道唯有這個能力的建立"},{"start":4421.178,"end":4447.182,"text":"這個去中心化就變成你的選項而不是你的目標那麼我提出這些建議請國安部作為參考我這邊這個質詢到這邊請部長您做一個簡單的回應是跟委員報告我想剛剛您提到的去中心化執管的這樣的一個目標方法手段跟建議都非常的好那也是我們正在進行的一個事項"},{"start":4447.922,"end":4459.567,"text":"那細節的部分我們可以私下再跟您做個說明我覺得這個部分都是我們現在在進行的那台灣之盾的部分我們現在有成立一個專案辦公室那當然就是如您所講的它的目標就是要"},{"start":4460.593,"end":4480.273,"text":"要整合現有自製跟外製以及未來可能取得的部分那我們來規劃用自動化的C8ISR的系統來結合這個AI的技術然後來連結各式的雷達融會為各式武器的一個擊殺網那我們建構一個全方位多層次跟整合式的一個"},{"start":4481.034,"end":4495.959,"text":"整體的飛蕩防禦系統 那這個部分我們整體規劃能夠在公開的時候 我們會向蔡委員做一個報告謝謝 大家共同努力好 謝謝陳永康委員 謝謝請回 部長請回接下來進行巡禮委員 徐曉新委員"},{"start":4508.472,"end":4525.007,"text":"謝謝主席我們是不是有請顧立雄部長來 部長請是 許委員好部長好那最近發生的這個非關的意外我想全體國人都非常的遺憾"},{"start":4525.695,"end":4540.174,"text":"目前也在搜救當中各界都在為他集氣所以我們今天不針對個案討論但是我們希望從本案擴展到整體的空軍飛行安全到底還有哪一些問題跟值得檢討的地方"},{"start":4540.755,"end":4564.299,"text":"首先有關於飛行員在失事之後甚至是殉職以後的調查一般來說我們都希望有一個真相而不是今天攻擊明天忘記可是我想要問一下2018年我們有一位F16的無性飛官在演習當中殉職那部長請問這個事情調查報告都完成了嗎在台北法院這邊審理是已經結案了嗎還是經過了什麼樣的一個過程"},{"start":4565.527,"end":4592.034,"text":"委員好 空軍司令部參謀長在這邊做個回答107年這個案子目前分成刑事的部分目前還在還沒有做一個結案為什麼因為高檢那邊還有一些案子還在做一些釐清但是整個民視是你們以機密為由沒有提供相關資料還是不是這樣子這是一個自由時報的報導因為如果是假的訊息的話那給你們一個時間跟機會來做澄清"},{"start":4594.354,"end":4619.887,"text":"謝謝委員給我們這個機會那我們空軍司令部都是按照軍事機關對司法機關的這個機密要件的這個申請的要件全部都提供而且在第一時間我們就配合檢調甚至監察院的調查都全數提供這是應該要做的事情但是我們看到自由時報他做了這樣子一個獨家那寫了說沒有癥結的原因是因為你們不願意提供資料"},{"start":4620.347,"end":4647.02,"text":"所以相關該澄清的該否認的那我認為必須要做到否則對於其他的非官甚至說出意外的大家都會覺得說難道這不需要給予相對應的調查嗎這是第一個事情請你們來做一個澄清跟說明再來有關於這個防撞地系統的部分我在去年的12月15號的時候就問過了那今天顧部長也有提到那能夠安裝完成的時間應該是2027年對吧是"},{"start":4650.802,"end":4668.75,"text":"現在預估就是2027年以前全數安裝好 那請問一下昨天記者會為什麼又說的是2028年呢你們知道昨天空軍記者會講的是2028年不是2027年我昨天看記者會的時候就覺得很奇怪我們不是12月15號的時候都已經講好是2027年了嗎請問一下實際的時間"},{"start":4672.369,"end":4687.174,"text":"跟委員澄清一下這個全案是在2028年所以說他可能是針對鳳展專案全案但是針對裡面的個案AUTO-G CAS這個部分沒有 我們那個時候他問的就是在AUTO-GS就是他就在問防撞地的系統"},{"start":4688.274,"end":4713.966,"text":"是新聞都是這樣報的啊全案我回去也問了我們專長他說在全案是在所以我告訴你喔等一下我還會再講你們記者會昨天說錯很多資訊今天有一個機會讓你們好好來更正第一個要更正的事情就是這個防撞系統你預計就是2027年要全數完成對吧因為如果到時候跳票的話我還要再跟你追究啊所以時間點要講對不要一下2027 一下2028啊是好"},{"start":4717.267,"end":4731.262,"text":"那再來就是呢因為我覺得你們如果連這麼重要的公開時程記者會上都是錯的那再來你們說這個2018年就要採購了可是呢這個到現在都沒有到貨你說是系統升級的問題上次問過了"},{"start":4733.464,"end":4753.59,"text":"可是對我來說這些都是藉口為什麼因為已經6年到7年的時間我們完成不了一個美軍2015年就全面裝設的系統本來就應該是要追根究柢而不是雙手一攤那另外請問新購入的F16V是不是它出廠就已經會內建這個防撞系統"},{"start":4754.264,"end":4776.638,"text":"花委員 兩個問題給你做一個很快的回答第一個 F16 BLOCK 拐動這個是全數位所以出廠就會具備 Auto GKS 功能第二個 為什麼 BLOCK 兩棟它要這麼久的時間因為美軍到今天它的 BLOCK 兩五三棟也是類比式的飛超系統到今天跟我們是同步在進行沒有一點 Delay"},{"start":4777.358,"end":4796.919,"text":"它的飛機到現在一架都還沒上機進度跟我們是一模一樣的但是問題是你從2018年到現在是一個6到7年的時間我剛剛為什麼要順勢的去講F16V的問題就在於如果今天它的系統沒有辦法解決這個問題它還在做還在做測試等等的"},{"start":4797.62,"end":4820.771,"text":"那如果我們原本F16V的66家按照其成你在這個2025年的新聞裡面就本來提到說我們去年本來可以收到10家的F16V但現在全數都延宕了我的意思是這兩個方案嘛一個方案就是我們裝了防撞地的系統"},{"start":4821.271,"end":4846.272,"text":"但沒有辦法做到 另一個方案就是我們新採購的F16V能夠交貨 我們就會至少有一部分的飛機 戰鬥機是有防撞地系統 但是也沒有交貨所以它就是一個延宕沒有交貨的問題這一點國防部真的是應該要去好好的去追蹤我問一下 今年上半年我們預計能夠拿到多少的F16V"},{"start":4848.417,"end":4861.609,"text":"這個我們跟美方持續在努力還是沒有答案又過了這麼好一陣子了 還是沒有答案您也看到新聞在去年年底它的是華是非都已經完成了是啊 所以我現在問你說我們預計上半年如何嘛我們預計上半年欸 你在2025年的時候可以告訴我們2025年9月的新聞說我們下半年 就是去年齁可以大概拿到10價左右"},{"start":4873.76,"end":4884.608,"text":"那結果呢又過了一陣子了然後又延宕了我現在再問那今年上半年預計可以取得多少價還是回答不出來還是沒有答案這會讓大家覺得那請問一下我們買了我們買了這個戰機都沒有到貨"},{"start":4889.491,"end":4912.176,"text":"然後上面明明就出廠就集裝防撞地系統對我們的飛安有很多的幫助而且不只這一項有很多的飛安系統都有升級那我不管你今天是一架兩架三架最起碼對我們國軍來說都是一個新的安全的保障那我現在問你上半年我們預計能夠接貨多少的F16V還是沒有答案是嗎"},{"start":4913.151,"end":4930.826,"text":"包委員我們也非常重視這個飛安的問題那整個飛機交機他的安全也是我們最重視的所以說現在整個飛撤的部分持續在進行我如果說今天跟你報了一個數字明天沒有做出來你不要這樣講你們之前就報數字了你們之前就報數字了啊2025年有沒有報數字有嘛為什麼我們會說有實價那也是你們報的數字啊以前就可以報數字現在又不報數字說是因為飛安了"},{"start":4940.914,"end":4945.319,"text":"我當然知道非安很重要啊但問題是你們過去報數字報得這麼漂亮結果全部延宕之後現在我再問你了你又不報數字了你這樣子你覺得交代個過去嗎這才是一個問題嘛年底時價已經完成組裝了所以今年上半年這時價會到貨嗎它完成組裝但是還要陸續進行所以還是不確定嘛我在跟你談論這個也沒有答案"},{"start":4963.277,"end":4988.277,"text":"委員報告一下就是說第一架的飛機它要進行的測試據我了解它的項目會比較多所以如果第一架的測試都比較順利的話第二架的交機就會加速這個大家都知道的事情就不用多談了我問的就是上半年嘛到1月7號為止生產線在線組裝已經有56架那這個有46架的單座機跟10架的雙座機所以你的意思是說上半年如何呢"},{"start":4988.777,"end":5002.797,"text":"那我們現在就是要看他第一架整個的測試的一個結果所以你跟我講了四十幾架然後但是他第一架都還沒有完全的測試完畢那就跟沒有講一樣好不好所以這個部分還是要跟美方再去催迴最後我要問一個問題主席再給我一點時間"},{"start":5005.18,"end":5022.559,"text":"就是因為大家現在都非常關心國防部的新措施有關於國軍在文件當中本來連line上面都要標明什麼無啊密啊結果在軍人的反彈之下取消了只有通訊軟體的部分剩下都保留所以我們昨天記者會看到一個很荒謬的現象"},{"start":5023.78,"end":5045.198,"text":"報告完畢 5 我們今天的書面報告也都是但是我先跟部長說你們的軍方自己內部資料你要怎麼寫是怎麼一回事我今天探討的是所有的文件包含記者會嗎舉例來講你們昨天在這個初步調查後面寫個5一般民眾看到只會覺得是怎麼樣沒有調查嗎 還有什麼"},{"start":5046.639,"end":5069.747,"text":"事件經過後面寫個5大家覺得是怎麼樣沒有調查嗎人員基本資料姓名每一個後面都寫一個5你今天都已經是叫做記者會它就是一個公開的所以如果你真的要寫你PowerPoint第一面寫的其實就是一樣的你每一面都寫這個除了讓基層軍人在那邊一直打然後讓大家看不清楚然後不清楚到底你們發生什麼狀況之外到底有什麼好處啊"},{"start":5072.688,"end":5091.808,"text":"部長你可不可以講一下這個政策到底就是說你們只取消了LINE的這個通訊軟體的部分請問是不是未來就你們內部的資料你要怎麼寫這是你們的事但是公開對外就是你對外不可能有機密你有機密你就不會公開做一個記者會了嘛那你還要這樣子每個都寫5嗎誰不知道他會寫5啊"},{"start":5094.45,"end":5113.773,"text":"簡短說明一下好不好跟委員簡短報告一下精準核密或者精準標示機密是美軍行之有年的作法美軍他只有做建議而已喔他並不是強制性的喔我去看過了那份文件了我們國軍為了跟美軍要進行實質交流建立共同圖像這是必須要做到的基本功"},{"start":5114.293,"end":5137.542,"text":"我問一下他們的classify unclassify是寫在前面還是後面第二點美軍的做法您在網路上都可以找到相關的案例就是說他的公開資訊就會標示U就等於跟我們標示5是一樣的他寫前面還後面他寫在前面對啊那你寫後面是什麼意思這個我想當然不一樣意思這當然也是重點這對於很多人在識別這在很多人識別這件事情的時候當然很重要"},{"start":5141.923,"end":5160.272,"text":"美軍的公開資訊也會標示U嘛U就是Unclassified對 但他只是建議而已他並沒有要求一定都要做那只是suggestion我看過那份文件他就是一個suggestion但你現在是連報告完畢都要寫一個他們現在整份文件的機密整齊也另外"},{"start":5161.933,"end":5184.649,"text":"會標逐頁逐段也都會標示機密等級公開資訊就會標示U這跟我們標示5是一樣的那這樣子的一個做法我想是跟國家機密保護法的精神是一致的不一致你國家機密保護法你是律師耶要經過整個過程的核定請問它經過了什麼樣的核定了我們內部就有一個核定的程序"},{"start":5185.389,"end":5207.727,"text":"你這個都是走國家機密保護法的程序嗎每一樣都是嗎今天的報告裡面也是嗎今天的我們的公開的專案報告裡面你也有走過國家機密保護法的相關核定程序嗎什麼時候進行的對外公開的這樣子的一個資訊我們就會進行討論那對作業的人來講他就要去評斷這一段到底是屬於機密"},{"start":5207.847,"end":5219.104,"text":"我們在所有的機密保護法裡面不管是一般文書處理手冊或是國家機密保護法都有在密等上面的解密期限請問如果今天上面寫的是密的話那你有沒有解密期限"},{"start":5219.83,"end":5227.692,"text":"有啊有那可是不是你都是寫無啊我的意思就是說既然無就是無就是沒有啊我告訴你這問題在哪裡好不好他要逐列逐段的去審視要去實質核定但是今天你就是一個公開的記者會了你就不可能有任何機密然後你還要在每一段上面然後要寫一個無"},{"start":5238.976,"end":5249.405,"text":"這就是讓大家覺得很好笑你今天事件處理過程報告完畢我跟你講你覺得不好笑全台灣人民看到都覺得很好笑所有的軍官都覺得莫名其妙只有你大副部長覺得不好笑大家都覺得很可笑的事情我說了你內部的文件要怎麼寫是你們的事情但是你們要思考到的是公開的記者會那是否還有這樣子的必要"},{"start":5267,"end":5273.783,"text":"否則你不用取消LINE啊你LINE的事情你就繼續幹嘛你剛剛講的這麼大聲覺得你都對那LINE的事情為什麼要取消呢通訊軟體上面欸 美根 吃早餐沒我吃了漢堡蜜你不是都本來要這樣寫嗎那為什麼要取消呢就是因為知道說這個太擾民了嘛"},{"start":5285.569,"end":5305.431,"text":"所以我說了你們內部的資料要怎麼寫交給國防部你們專業決定要如何跟美軍借過都可以但是公開的這種記者會已經是確定是公開的請你寫一個大家就知道了嘛好不好讓民眾能夠清楚的看懂記者會的內容才是最重要的事情謝謝"},{"start":5306.092,"end":5319.05,"text":"薛委員的意見表達完整那請國防部就記者會公開資訊是不是應該要這樣標示我覺得可以審慎考慮那另外呢寫無如果容易引起錯誤的判讀的話你也可以寫U啦"},{"start":5320.424,"end":5345.521,"text":"你懂我意思嗎on class by就寫個u因為你在讀中文的時候你寫個u他的語意不會被中斷這都建議那我們讓廣播去做相關的研議好不好徐委員我們會聽取各方的意見因為我們想這個大家調整原來習慣的做事方式會增加一些這個我想適應的成本那我想我們都會來逐步收集相關的意見來不斷的來進行一個檢討"},{"start":5349.604,"end":5359.091,"text":"但是我們覺得這是必要的一個進步的做法我相信待會還有其他委員會詢問那接下來進行訓導委員是黃恩委員謝謝主席 有請顧部長來 部長請"},{"start":5383.7,"end":5404.277,"text":"部長好是 黃委員我說簡單的接續徐巧欣委員剛剛所講的這一些密跟無的這個部分那你這個過去裡面你上任之後就檢視了這個思維檢視思維它的效益到底有沒有而且現在全國國軍現在都認為"},{"start":5410.622,"end":5428.877,"text":"這個怨聲載道那所以這個這樣的一個減量的思維裡面但到底有沒有效力我們現在我們應該要重新檢討這個部分我請部長盡快來做一個調整那另外就是我們今天我們講的"},{"start":5430.95,"end":5452.582,"text":"很遺憾的是在前天的晚上空軍一下的F16戰機在夜間訓練的任務中失事乃在搶救新興的飛官中空軍飛行員是以生命承擔國家安全第一線的人員發生這樣的一個憾事對家屬是難以承受的打擊"},{"start":5454.263,"end":5477.423,"text":"對國軍士氣也會重大的衝擊那當然我們今天我們想回顧過去十一年當中這個十年當中有十一起的發生重大的一個事故那當然這個是不是在設計上的缺陷偷工減料還是問題所在那當然在這個"},{"start":5480.142,"end":5483.811,"text":"單座的戰機彈射的部分是購入在1997年的購入"},{"start":5486.869,"end":5512.947,"text":"没有安装行动防撞系统所以这个等等就发生了这样的一个重大事件那另外就是F16有四大的一个杀手就是空中相撞第二个是空间迷向第三就是大机的昏迷那第四就是操控下的一个撞地那第二个现在我们想的是第一"},{"start":5513.747,"end":5527.807,"text":"第二項的空中迷向包含大機的昏迷是不是朝向這個方向去做一個深入的調查那部長今天發生的這個事件"},{"start":5529.238,"end":5546.279,"text":"是不是檢討我們F16現在的布拉克兩棟的這個問題過去到現在一直存在著一個未解決一個問題所在那部長你來回答一下 空軍來回答先請空軍"},{"start":5547.824,"end":5569.691,"text":"不是 委員您指的是要解決空間迷向跟大氣昏迷這個沒有 剛剛我說你們是不是朝向這個方向那另外說它的座階的彈射是不是現在要提升它空間的彈射包含它的這個生存力能夠提升"},{"start":5570.851,"end":5585.885,"text":"柯委員報告這個block兩棟它是沿用美軍的這個Colins公司的S2這個彈射座椅它也是零零彈射也就是零高度零速度可以做一個彈射保護飛行員那新構的block拐棟它是"},{"start":5586.826,"end":5607.334,"text":"Follow美軍的這個落馬公司的馬丁貝克US-18Echo這一型的彈射座椅也是00彈射那您提到的裡面安全的部分其實這都是標準配備裡面包含了救生艇還有信標機還有所有的求生裝備這個在我們國家裡面全部都是標準的配備"},{"start":5608.234,"end":5628.362,"text":"那有沒有可能再提升因為現在我國空軍的戰機雖然不是海軍的這個艦載機但訓練和執行任務主要都在於海域本席統計在20年20多年的戰機的事故發生約28次事故中有18次發生在海上"},{"start":5629.582,"end":5645.687,"text":"那比例約為64%其中11次人員失蹤或殉職佔比例61%所以我們現在就是說在他在飛行中在彈射之後那如果他的這個"},{"start":5647.347,"end":5672.722,"text":"這個急救的這一些彈射的這個部分是不是可以增加的提升那因為剛剛的數據裡面都已經調查出來了嘛64%約64%在海上有18次的那另外11次是在失蹤或是殉職佔61%所以像等等這樣的一個狀況那我們是不是更要提升保障我們空軍的這個軍官"},{"start":5675.443,"end":5697.477,"text":"謝謝委員的關心這個我們也真的是非常重視飛行員的安全所以說我們在我們的求生背心上面都有一個海水起爆因為我們也知道我們戰機的訓練環境大概您剛剛提到的大部分都在海上所以說他的求生設備有一個海水起爆的裝置那觸到海水裡面不管你人是不是清醒他都會自動充氣來保護飛行員的安全那在"},{"start":5698.877,"end":5727.05,"text":"救生艇上面也是一樣有這樣的一個裝置那海水觸發之後它的求生訊號的信標機會自動啟動那這個在其他的國家未必都有標配但是在我們國家全部都是標配那未來如果有更先進的這些求生裝備的話我們也會那當然未來引進這一些F16升級版的這個布拉克的拐動那它的這個彈射的機能功能是不是就更提升 有沒有是 有"},{"start":5727.99,"end":5749.123,"text":"是它的除了00彈射以外它的速限本來從450海里舊式的這個S2提升到這個US-18Echo它可以到600海里的彈射那包含它的手部腿部的這個保護它都有更完整的一個保護措施那因為時間關係那我請國安局包含外交部國防部留著來針對"},{"start":5751.764,"end":5767.691,"text":"我們解放軍在東部戰區的去年的12月29日的清晨大概7點半宣布的舉動正義使命2025的經驗實際行動幾乎是同步的展開那我們國安局"},{"start":5768.811,"end":5783.859,"text":"國安局外交部再先問國防部還有國安局我們在何時得知解放軍對台軍演是否在之前就已經得到解放軍會在這個規劃是否之前就發現部隊的調動的這個跡象"},{"start":5787.341,"end":5810.952,"text":"本席問的原因是主要希望了解我們的情報的掌握更希望能夠從中得知解放軍何時開始規劃還有它的動員能力在過去每年5到7月份解放軍只有異動調動我們一定可以發現不可能發生突襲式的一個武力犯台"},{"start":5812.853,"end":5839.341,"text":"另外就是合力艦聯合合力艦宣布三天時間就展開軍演這一次的正義使命宣布同時展開部隊調動集結隔天就進行了實彈的遠襲所以這樣的一個是一個重大重大對我們台灣來講是一個重大的軍演而且他同一時間同一步驟那我們這邊的掌握的情況如何你回答一下"},{"start":5842.079,"end":5857.876,"text":"委員好我是情報次長這一次的軍演我們在演習前的確有掌握到確切的徵喉但是至於徵喉的內容因為情報的必要性所以請委員容許我在這邊不方便跟委員做報告謝謝"},{"start":5859.666,"end":5874.355,"text":"現在不是報告的問題現在是國人現在對於我們國軍如何在因應我們對岸之間的這樣的一個同步同行的一個角度"},{"start":5875.315,"end":5894.88,"text":"因為現在忍其動無延遲的突發性的一個實戰轉換這個動員能力的的確非常的驚人所以國軍疫情的機制也構成極大的壓力那我們今天我們如果對岸同時宣布"},{"start":5897.24,"end":5919.405,"text":"這個同時同步進行來對我們台灣的經營來講的話我們有沒有即刻的因應的措施現在是國人要聽的這句話你來回答一下好不好報委員有簡單的回答就是有因為我們已經我們剛剛跟您報告過的在前面的這些重要的預警徵口我們已經掌握了所以國軍做好了準備"},{"start":5920.683,"end":5942.019,"text":"那我們的社會任性的這些社會任性有沒有在啟動啊我看根本沒有啟動嘛我們好像是一面倒就等對岸裡面把我們繞台我們國內裡面根本沒有任何的動作防衛或是預言預警啊有沒有 全社會任性有沒有在動沒有吧請摘要回答"},{"start":5945.01,"end":5959.632,"text":"跟委員報告我想是這樣子就是說因為我們預判他的這個軍演的強度之後那我們由國防部的這個部分來啟動我們相關讓我們相關的應酬的作為在可以公開的部分我們在我們的報告裡面都有列舉到那"},{"start":5961.36,"end":5978.764,"text":"我想其他相關的這個部分我想各部會包括像海巡也都有協同因應那像外交部也有協同因應國安局都有協同因應我想這個大家都一起在努力我想這個是要檢討的地方因為為什麼很多媒體在訪問我的時候"},{"start":5979.144,"end":6003.972,"text":"第一個 既然他們已經展開實彈軍演的時候我們內部國內不管是社會任性這一些都要共同啟動內部演習來防範未來萬一他們實彈演習打到我們自己來而我們沒有任何的反悲的話這樣對我們百姓來講如何交代以上請問部長你們自己本事要檢討 謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":6007.762,"end":6029.415,"text":"接下來進行詢問委員陳冠廷委員你好我們請國貿部部長來部長請"},{"start":6034.645,"end":6061.855,"text":"那國安局副局長也可能要準備一下備選是陳委員好部長副局長那我想請教一下最近有幾件大事發生那首先依照時序第一件事情是中共的這個軍演那那是算是史無前例應該是第一或第二大的這個大型的綜合型的軍演那第二部分就是韋國的馬杜洛馬杜洛總統"},{"start":6063.43,"end":6088.9,"text":"受到這個美國的軍事行動直接逮捕運回這個美國受審這兩件事情我把它當成是分開的事件那個別的事件但是我還是想要請教一下部長跟副局長怎麼看在這個馬杜洛的這個事件之後中國從中有沒有得到什麼樣的啟示對台的軍事行動它的可能性是會增高或者是減低"},{"start":6091.788,"end":6113.036,"text":"跟委員報告我想中國長期以來就是表示要以這個不管是以脅迫的方式或以武力的方式來改變台海的現狀也就是說要意圖以這個片面來來這個用不斷的各種的這種"},{"start":6114.432,"end":6129.007,"text":"手段來對我們要併吞我們所以共軍以任何突襲式的手段來發動攻擊本身我想我們都放在我們的想定裡面而且它這種威脅是對"},{"start":6130.288,"end":6152.284,"text":"所有台灣人民的一種威脅我們國防部的責任就是要來有效地來抵禦這樣的威脅來實力來嚇阻對方妄動所以我想所有相關的這些方案都在我們的可能想定的範圍之內我們都會跟我們國防部也會跟國安局來做相關的一些預應"},{"start":6153.888,"end":6182.293,"text":"因為我看到新聞上面有顯示說有國安高層的官員他有提到說在這一次美國成功的軍事行動之後他們認為是可以有效的嚇阻未來中國對台的一些可能的行動因為這證明了美國在情監偵還有情報的運用跟執行面上面有很傑出跟卓越的能力那有辦法達到這個嚇阻戰爭的可能性不知道部長怎麼看這個國安高層的看法不具名的國安高層"},{"start":6183.946,"end":6209.623,"text":"我想我們國防部關切的是中國對我們的威脅中國對我們的軍事的威脅那包括剛剛講任何突襲式的這種攻擊都對我們來講是我們國防部所著重的那所以我想國軍一定會應用所有各種的這種的我們的相關的這些"},{"start":6211.712,"end":6219.02,"text":"聯合健身系統來嚴密的掌握這些狀況然後我們對各種的可能的一種一種"},{"start":6221.451,"end":6248.28,"text":"可能的行動我們都要有一個應對的一個方案那我們不去我想我不會去評論其他部分我想因為我們所重視光不所重視就是如何確保我們台灣的安全好 謝謝部長我認為首先第一件事情就是過度的樂觀或過度的悲觀來去看待軍事能力特別是中國的軍事能力都是不必要的"},{"start":6248.76,"end":6270.493,"text":"那第二點我也不認為說中國他在過去這20年的把台海現狀的改變那會因為一次的事件來去加速或者是減緩在過去20年來中國他比較或者說中共他比較在行的是什麼他是可以緩慢的改變現狀所以我們從過去20年來我們看到1999年"},{"start":6272.13,"end":6294.362,"text":"共機可能只是因為兩國論跨越台海中線那是單一事件在那之後的非常長的時間裡他不太頻繁的跨中線但是在2019年之後他們開始頻繁的改變常態近三年來有一萬五千兩百九十二架次的勤勞也就是說中共的他想要遂行的不是一次性的來去"},{"start":6295.342,"end":6314.978,"text":"破壞現狀而是透過以十年甚至是二十年為週期緩慢的改變現狀那等到我們察覺之後或者說我們要做反應之後它已經成為繼承事實所以說我們接下來我們的國防很重要的一個目的就是不要讓現狀被長期的慢慢的被破壞"},{"start":6315.839,"end":6335.477,"text":"我們要確保的是說他們不會把繼承事實作為對國際社會做宣傳的一個工具所以我們看到說從過去中線是非常不平凡的到跨越中線到跨越中線到24海浬之間到24海浬到12海浬之間我們看到這個計時是不斷的在滴答滴答的響它離我們是越來越迫近"},{"start":6336.378,"end":6356.549,"text":"過去只有空軍到現在海軍到現在海警到現在從西部到東部從南到北我認為我們不能夠因為任何的單一事件把我們的警惕降低那美國的能力我想還是全世界全球是最有能力做軍事投射的但是另外一方面中共離我們真的非常近所以"},{"start":6357.97,"end":6369.469,"text":"1.25兆的這個總預算裡面我認為我們也必須要跟在野黨來去很告訴他們很迫切的告訴他們說哪一些是我們現在要面臨極端需要要快速取得的這些無謀"},{"start":6371.707,"end":6396.276,"text":"剛才也有許多人提到這1.25兆裡面特別是有美國美國的八項對台軍售案它裡面有包含這一個海馬斯的多管火箭還有這些標槍飛彈系統等等的裝備我認為這是為了要確保中共不會緩慢改變現狀我們的有必要的利期那我是希望說我們能夠做的假設這一黨對1.25兆有意見沒關係我們先從這一個已經"},{"start":6400.498,"end":6419.427,"text":"八項對台軍售案這個地方我們來開始從這個地方我們來開始來討論一下有沒有機會不然我們看到這個時間每次我就看到這些黨立委不斷的在講到說中共已經越來越近了那我就要問那所以呢所以我們要怎麼辦所以你們要怎麼做不要一方面再去講說中共的威脅"},{"start":6421.404,"end":6440.942,"text":"一方面又在誇示中共的軍武的能力但是一方面又不想要增強我方自己的能力這就是在野黨委員我是比較不懂的地方比較弔詭的地方不斷的在誇示中共的能力但是叫你們要增強國防卻又不講話或者是又幫對方講話這件事情是我們沒有辦法理解我們也沒有辦法支持的"},{"start":6441.562,"end":6459,"text":"那我們剛才提到的說除了整個這個台海的現狀的改變之外另外一方面我們跟有盟國家剛才外交部有提到各個國家的不同的看法那我們要把它們聯合起來在南海改變現狀這20年從這個把這個推動大型的填海工程"},{"start":6459.62,"end":6477.333,"text":"到推動聯海工程之後就說沒有我們那個是和平方案只是要做科研到後來見證寶島之後把寶島建設完之後他說那只是透過這個讓這些海警啊相關的這些救援的這些機隊來去做降落到架設雷達之後說這是只是做防禦範圍到最後架設飛彈系統的時候那他就說沒有這只是沒有針對任何一個國家"},{"start":6482.287,"end":6506.747,"text":"但是在那20年之內 填島造礁然後到填島 把火砲都做好了把雷達做好了 把飛彈都做好了這就是緩慢的改變現狀這就是現在我們面臨的問題所以我也想要請教部長我們如果不是遇到一次性的這種大型的襲擊而是現在已經變成新常態了我們到底要怎麼樣二指住他們不斷地再往前進一次一次地切得越來越近了"},{"start":6507.625,"end":6527.866,"text":"那我們必須 你說要劃下紅線一號我們有什麼樣反制的方式才不會讓他們緩慢的改變現狀我想我們所要強調的是說中國的這個威脅確實存在而且日趨嚴峻這件事情國連一定要有所警覺"},{"start":6528.891,"end":6554.411,"text":"那我們強化我們的自我防衛的能力不管在應對灰色地帶的侵擾或者是應對可能的全面的一個入侵我們都要做好萬全的一個準備那對這樣的一個準備我們當然是希望我們透過這些特別條例來快速籌獲可視戰力滿足我們防衛作戰的一個需求我們希望當然得到大院委員的支持"},{"start":6556.42,"end":6578.223,"text":"部長我的意思是說沒關係這個之後再說好沒關係我是說每一次他們就越來越近那我們沒有辦法阻止這個緩慢的進程有沒有相關的戰略或戰術讓他們不要再靠近來去執行他們的這個戰術的細節因為我們現在看到從中線到24到12現在是甚至有10彈進入24嘛"},{"start":6579.984,"end":6607.094,"text":"那我的意思就是說我們接下來的下一步要怎麼做不然他不斷的切切切就這個部分我簡要的回答五言兩個第一個就是說我想我們運用聯合情建制手段來預先來預應這個可能的一個共軍可能的行動這是第一點第二點我們的突發狀況處置規定我們要隨時來檢討所以我們針對這一次的軍演我們似乎也做AR我們來檢討我們各項的一個處置的作為"},{"start":6607.813,"end":6635.988,"text":"那也要預印以後可能面對更有嚴峻的作為的時候我們應該要如何應處我想這個都是我們應該要做的但詳細的內容我想也不便在這邊做一個公開的說明沒關係 我們要的是就是結果嘛結果就是盡量不要再靠近那不要靠近的其他戰術什麼作為這個麻煩國防部可以來跟包含海巡署一起來思考一下好不好是 謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員 各位請回號接下來進行巡達委員羅美玲委員"},{"start":6646.758,"end":6648.721,"text":"謝謝主席有請國防部副部長是"},{"start":6658.847,"end":6684.12,"text":"部長好 部長今天晚上很不幸的我們新博弈上位所駕駛的這個F16戰機執行夜訓的時候在花蓮外海失事那到現在是毫無音訊嗎是不是 部長到目前毫無音訊是不是到現在為止當然最重要就是說我們沒有收穫到這個有關那個相關的一個訊號就是包括"},{"start":6685.069,"end":6707.795,"text":"求生的訊號就是包括彈射儀會發出的然後還有這個他身上的這個背心裡面會訊標機他只要碰觸海水就會啟動的這樣的一個訊標機確實現在沒有收獲任何的訊號但是我想我們並不放棄所以我們持續不斷的來進行盡全力來進行搜救"},{"start":6708.774,"end":6735.144,"text":"是这件事情其实让国人是非常的这个揪心那这件事情当然我们也凸显了我们军这个空军的装备确实有一些不足的这个地方所以我在想国防部应该要加紧这个脚步无论是刚刚有我已经提到的自动防装系统或者是说先前我有看到所谓防寒飞行衣等等我想能够尽数来安装的筹获的我们的尽快尽快来做筹获那甚至有些"},{"start":6736.844,"end":6750.729,"text":"裝備需要去做升級的我在想這應該都要來做來保障我們國軍執行任務的安全再來的話我要延續剛剛我們陳冠廷委員所提到的共軍的軍演"},{"start":6752.55,"end":6775.892,"text":"共軍在元旦前進行環台經驗,這是過去三年半以來中共對台的第七次大規模的經驗,而且無論是在這個化社區域也好,或者是說它距離本島的距離都是有史以來最近的,而且這個進航區的範圍也是非常的大,而且對這次的民航交通都有很大的影響。"},{"start":6776.853,"end":6796.099,"text":"這都是遠遠超過過去那我在想這已經不是威懾恐嚇了這已經是共軍已經是在具體的演練對台的這個封控那這個封鎖的能力我在想這是他這次要來做這個展現那國防部這裡會不會擔心有哪一天發生油鹽轉戰如果發生這種突發狀況的話我國的軍備有沒有辦法來做應付呢請問部長如果哪天突然間有擦槍走火的這個狀況的話"},{"start":6805.262,"end":6832.593,"text":"跟委員報告我們做了這個事先掌握一些疫情徵口之後關鍵的疫情徵口之後我們就預想已經啟動立即備戰操演那所以對於這樣的立即備戰操演在我們的報告裡面大概也在說明就是說他從事相對的這個演習的活動我們當然也要從事相對的演習的活動然後維持我們個快速反應的一個能力"},{"start":6833.313,"end":6845.538,"text":"來以防任何的一個土花狀況的一個轉變那當然他所採取的這些手段他會不會再進一步升級這要透過一個我們聯合情監的手段或者甚至"},{"start":6846.294,"end":6874.382,"text":"坦白講要跟我們有盟也要進行一個情質的必要情質的一些交換等等我會做一個研判那每一個研判都會相對應的會對應我們應該要如何的採取相關的一個行動我想那確實面臨的這個情況是越來越嚴峻所以我們也要每一個針對每一個狀況事後都要來進行檢討我們的處置那我想"},{"start":6876.14,"end":6898.876,"text":"這都是在我們國防部應盡的一個責任的範圍之內對 看起來共軍對台灣的軍演是越勒越緊這也是他們的目標那當然國人也有很擔心就是說像他們目前軍演的狀態真的是越來越嚴峻到底 當然"},{"start":6899.736,"end":6919.816,"text":"也許我們真的有這些情資我們可能事先知道他們什麼時候要軍演可是呢我們也很擔心說我們目前的一些關鍵的防衛裝備到底夠不夠那有哪些已經到位了哪些還在依這個期程交付當中這部分的話我想國防部可能要給國人一些信心"},{"start":6920.456,"end":6925.778,"text":"到底因為我們目前都看到在野黨都說你們這些軍購案有很多這個軍購的這個品項都還沒有交付所以國人擔心說都這樣子的話那如果真的突然有突發狀況的話我們要如何處置我們真的有沒有辦法保護我們自己我們的軍備我們這些防備裝備到底有沒有辦法來做自我來做這個防衛我想這個部分是有些國人是會非常擔心"},{"start":6950.927,"end":6969.618,"text":"那當然我想我希望在這裡國防部對於這個防備那當然我們有所謂的分階段來做進行那這部分的話這部分要不要在這裡多說明一下呢我們有哪些裝備其實已經在騎乘當中交付有哪些已經到位了"},{"start":6969.858,"end":6995.329,"text":"而不是在野黨一再強調說我們買的這些軍購這些軍備品其實到目前為止幾乎都還沒有依其成來交付這部分要在這裡說明一下嗎我想我們應該是說這個部分有分三塊一個是軍購一個是商購另外一個是我們的委制我們的自主的生產能力"},{"start":6996.269,"end":7019.928,"text":"我們從國防自主的觀點來看當然在我們能夠做到的範圍之內我們一定想辦法來強化我們的國防自主的能力那至於有關軍購的部分我想之前都已經有說明過現在最主要當然延遲的部分就是剛剛也有委員問到的F16VBlock 拐動這一個部分那另外我記得還有兩項是"},{"start":7022.698,"end":7050.2,"text":"154C的AGM154然後還有Mark48的魚雷我想這些部分我們都會跟美方來不斷地進行就是說美方位置要都成立相關的這些專案辦公室像F16就特別要成立專案辦公室讓我們來積極地加速他們的產製"},{"start":7052.762,"end":7070.195,"text":"所以我想這些部分是在軍購案當中我們在原則上我們在軍購的當下我們都會跟美方去確認就是說他所能夠交付的時間"},{"start":7073.277,"end":7097.662,"text":"當然在這個過程當中會涉及到每方的一個產政能量還有我們設定的這些相關的這些規格等等那有些比如像F16B它事實上是都是最新的一個配備所以它還是可能會有一些研發的一個過程像我也特別講一下"},{"start":7099.202,"end":7121.99,"text":"提到那個自動防撞系統因為我們兩棟是類比式的那因為原來洛克希克馬丁它的防撞系統就裝在數位式的所以我們要109年請洛克希克馬丁研發的時候那確實我們就知道我們會面對就是說要從把它這個數位式的防撞系統裝在類比式的時間確實需要"},{"start":7123.63,"end":7146.984,"text":"一點時間延趕那我想迄今還在還在順利所以我們希望疫情能夠是不是能夠在今年年底能夠開始能夠獲得籌貨所以我想這些每一個個案都有他的一些一些不同的一些狀況那我們都會努力的來來跟美方進行溝通就軍購的部分"},{"start":7148.063,"end":7151.305,"text":"這部分除了說我們努力要跟美國溝通之外儘快的能夠籌獲這些品項再來跟國人也要不斷的做說明當然也許很多國人並不了解目前的狀況一直聽到F16B為什麼我們已經到現在一架都沒有類似這樣的狀況"},{"start":7171.278,"end":7182.25,"text":"我之前看了一個在社交平台上面有一個一位太太跟先生的一個對話其實如果用這種比較淺顯的方式讓國人去了解可能知道就是說其實我們這個防衛建構本來就是來做分階段來做進行"},{"start":7192.361,"end":7210.707,"text":"譬如說這個太太就問先生說寶寶需要的奶粉買了嗎然後先生就說我已經刷卡付錢買了可是還沒有到貨那太太就說我還需要尿布我還需要寶寶的乳液我還要濕紙巾等等可是先生就說可是這個奶粉都還沒有到貨這些東西你都不要跟我說"},{"start":7211.987,"end":7238.36,"text":"就類似這樣子可能比較讓國人去清楚了解就是說我們現在面臨的這個問題並不是說我某一樣這個品項還沒到我其他都不准賣所以我去看了這個用比較淺顯的方式去講我們的所謂的這個防衛建構的這個議題我想這樣的說法是非常淺顯易懂那我也說明就是說美方並不是所有的我們的軍官交務都遲延"},{"start":7238.88,"end":7253.776,"text":"那我隨便舉一個例子那就是Artist 600我們舉這個對嘛 我剛剛有問有哪些已經到位了哪些一期程有交付他交付了那我想M1A2大家也都有看到那海馬仕我想"},{"start":7254.676,"end":7283.132,"text":"我們現在在這一次已經公開了我們海馬寺海馬寺我覺得是一個非常非常重要的一個我們防衛作戰所需要的一個具有機動性存活力高而且有演成精準火力的然後能夠做跨距增援等等的這樣子的一個系統那我們原來的29套之外我們再加過82套所以我們會上增加到上百套以上那這整個對我們防衛作戰的那一個"},{"start":7286.171,"end":7301.028,"text":"這種部署或者是運用的彈性會改變很大也就是說我們的傳統的這樣子的一個砲兵的火力藉由這個海馬式大量的一個購買跟這個"},{"start":7304.071,"end":7331.299,"text":"我們部署之後呢整個防衛作戰能力會有進一步的提升我想這個是非常重要的當然也希望大院能夠支持這個我們後續這個82套的這個公案放在特別預算裡面OK 好 因為時間的關係那對於這個共軍的這個步步逼近我在想這個部分呢對於這個軍購這個國防預算我想應該朝野都部分彼此應該來共同來支持好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":7339.257,"end":7345.101,"text":"謝謝美琳委員接下來有請王定宇召委謝謝主席 麻煩國防部長以及空軍參謀長還有我們副參謀總長執行官有請部長參謀長還有副參謀長執行官 謝謝"},{"start":7366.972,"end":7387.771,"text":"是 王委員好待會兒我會就GKS NMC還有112G來就教於三位不過現在請問因為昨天我們看那個鏡頭拍到我們F16V墜海的時候有個火光那個火光到底是"},{"start":7389.316,"end":7397.31,"text":"彈射座椅的噴煙還是飛機本身的火焰那另外現在搜救的情形是不是可以簡單一分鐘說明一下"},{"start":7400.141,"end":7424.735,"text":"因為現在這個事實調查還在進行中所以說我們會針對所有的市政來做一個研判那在研判出來之前我們這邊不便做一個臆測所以說這個火焰的部分我們有看到媒體上的我們也去調閱這個監視器我們目前事實調查還在進行中因為那個火焰如果是彈射座椅的那它就是人跟飛機是分開了"},{"start":7426.107,"end":7445.687,"text":"那如果本身是飛機機體的那我想這兩個事情會對搜救的方向會有差異我們當然對任何非安事件我們自己空軍出來的沒有最後的非安判定我們不要去臆測這些臆測其實非常不妥當但這個是已經彰顯出來的現象你們的研判上那個火焰到底是什麼"},{"start":7447.433,"end":7473.621,"text":"因為這個還是跟委員報告因為這個現在我們的非安調查都還在進行這些事證包含了所有的錄音超鑑當天的狀況攝影機的這個鏡頭等等目前都在收整所以說這邊還是跟委員報告我們不做太多的臆測避免誤導我尊重那我希望我們盡快把我們的弟兄帶回來我們搜救的想定不會侷限於某一部分我們會全面性的來做我先講GCAS的部分"},{"start":7474.742,"end":7493.66,"text":"這個防撞的系統在目前的進度我聽說已經完成系統整合是否為真美軍已經在做是非的動作系統整合已經完成了現在在做是非是非完成之後下一步是什麼"},{"start":7494.822,"end":7513.221,"text":"它是非有很多的系統要去做一個整合因為它的控制非常的複雜而且它的要整個接替飛行員的操作所以說在安全上這是非常重要它是分很多階段來做雖然說我們只聽到一個飛撤但是飛撤裡面的科目非常多飛撤不同的東西 項目會不一樣"},{"start":7514.041,"end":7542.52,"text":"這個是takeover它要把你的操縱桿接管回來這個測試本身也有危險性非常危險所以說慎重起見也是為什麼是說它是在全數位上面的飛機已經運用這麼多年但是在類比上要轉成數位飛控要花這麼多的時間舉個簡單的例子跟委員報告就是說我今天蓋一棟新房子可能很快但是在一個老房子裡面去把它整成新房子那可能要比原來要花更多的時間"},{"start":7543.701,"end":7567.704,"text":"因為我們現在要了解因為這個東西對維繫我們飛行員的生命安全非常重要那我為什麼要特別請這個副執行官上來因為我們當時是2018年6月4號吳彥廷中校 後來追風中校他在北部空域的五分山撞山當時就是我在那邊提質詢然後我們快速在9月份把他列入預算"},{"start":7568.385,"end":7586.164,"text":"然後隔年2019年把GCAS列為我們希望在原來的奉展專案如果叫做1.0是沒有這個的後來就希望把全部的F16AB型的奉展專案追加等於2.0加了這個項目進去我記得第二年你就是參謀長是"},{"start":7587.265,"end":7614.648,"text":"你就是現在參謀長這個位置所以這個狀況比較了解所以目前這個GCAS防撞的系統已經在進行飛測那飛測還有很多項目要做飛測做完下面就是要組裝了那我們現在F16AB提升到F16V本身機體要跟它銜接的裡面的不管是裡面的線路的裝束各方面有沒有做備變等它要來了"},{"start":7615.228,"end":7638.124,"text":"是的 這個現在有關這個防撞系統最主要現在在測試的就是它的非控電腦那其他的有關線數和結構的部分實際上這已經備料並且完成設計所以線數已經備變 是 線數然後我們現在等這個系統測試完成就是跟線數要連結在一起就是組裝其他的這個硬體 設備以及設計的部分都已經完成了我知道大家都擠"},{"start":7639.085,"end":7653.956,"text":"我們都不希望有自己的弟兄在那裡發生事情要等著搜救都是某個人的親人 孩子或丈夫是我們的跑者嘛所以沒有人會希望這個慢剛才講2018年6月4號吳彥霆到2019年列入預算當然我曉得對一般人來講"},{"start":7660.794,"end":7677.829,"text":"為什麼不能隔年就裝好為什麼不能第三年就裝好我們都急但是這個問題在哪裡剛才其實各位有說明過但是我想要讓國人更清楚了解過去GCAS是用在全數位戰鬥機從來沒有用在類比式的戰鬥機"},{"start":7679.21,"end":7707.025,"text":"而全數位戰鬥機是在Block 70這個Block 70之後它就內建在上面了所以我們全新的66架內建就有GCAS但是F16AB型它是類比式的你用數位式的操控要去接管Takeover它的這個過程那個有點像特斯拉你要讓它的自駕系統要裝在你家的手排的老爺車一樣這樣大家都聽得懂了"},{"start":7707.836,"end":7710.123,"text":"就是我原來的舊款的車型"},{"start":7712.863,"end":7740.391,"text":"不是數位的你要把特斯拉的全自動駕駛我們現在大概任何車款都有自動駕駛你要把它裝到之前上兩個世代的老爺車你不測試完成你上路你放心嗎會有問題所以GCAS的部分我們請空軍相關單位把相關進度要確實一個進度一個節點要讓我們委員會知道第二個我要請教三位的MMC的問題這一個模組化的任務電腦"},{"start":7742.912,"end":7755.465,"text":"他看起來這一次是有故障的情形因為他在呼的這個他在無線電上有呈現這個任務電腦本身到底有多重要有人說他是飛機的大腦他到底整合了哪些東西"},{"start":7757.24,"end":7783.686,"text":"就如同您所提的它就是一個飛機的一個大腦的這個功能所有的導航 飛行 控制 還有武器都是藉由這一個任務電腦來做一個處理所以是Module Mission Computer它裡面包含飛行最重要的姿態核心 是高度 速度 方位還有它武器系統相關方面好 它一旦失效"},{"start":7784.963,"end":7804.328,"text":"你們兩位都是飛行員NMC一旦失效在飛行上會有什麼影響包委員因為就是因為這個系統非常的複雜所以說它的故障的態樣也是非常的多所以說要看它故障的態樣是Level 1 Level 2它影響到的裝備都有不一樣"},{"start":7805.359,"end":7824.376,"text":"那它失效了比方說我們很重要的飛行的高度飛行的姿態我們有一個備用姿態儀在飛機上所以旁邊有一個備用姿態儀是在飛機的右上角廊板的右上角上面有一個備用的姿態儀所以當MNC故障之後我在看因為他們有個黃卡根據黃卡我要排除那排除要花幾秒"},{"start":7826.216,"end":7843.73,"text":"他做一個 這個所以跟委員報告他的故障太陽非常多有些是故障他自己會恢復有些你要去Reset的電門九成以上他都會恢復成這樣那恢復時間要多久這個要Depends他的故障的狀況大概是幾秒鐘就可以恢復那個副參謀總長"},{"start":7846.852,"end":7870.251,"text":"包委員這個MNC它這個電腦實際上就跟我們使用這個一般的電腦情況一樣它有時候是站態性的可是它會告訴我們暫時的站狀態的給我們一個故障代碼可是實際上在飛機上並沒有任何影響它就過一會它自動恢復因為我們如果進到雲裡面或者在特殊狀況海天一線我在空間上就我這一個大腦裡面顯示的飛行姿態如果暫時"},{"start":7872.136,"end":7892.021,"text":"失效的時候最最糟糕會產生問題嗎最糟糕情況就是他的這個對飛機的這個姿態的判斷的顯示會不正確可是飛機上還有一個備用系統我們飛行員按照黃卡的處置就會立刻參考備用系統黃卡排除黃卡建議看這個相關的備用的姿態儀可是是的"},{"start":7892.301,"end":7921.439,"text":"可是因為當時飛行員如果碰到的情況是都是複雜多變的雖然這一個情況發生那座艙裡頭還沒有別的情況影響到飛行員其他的判斷和操作尤其是有沒有像類似在發生空間迷向生理上又受到影響的時候在這個對飛行員的處置上因為在緊急的狀況的時候哪怕是一秒兩秒其實都是攸關的那這一個在F16AB提升它會有這些站態或者是失效失能的狀態"},{"start":7923.424,"end":7938.416,"text":"他發生的頻率還有你們有沒有提出什麼經濟要求原廠公司進行修改因為不管多少比例這個其實是有危險性的是這個這一部分實際上從20多年前我們第一次接受F16這個所有的"},{"start":7939.056,"end":7965.474,"text":"F16都一樣一接收的一段一定會有一段時間是這個系統要重新適應這個新的狀況並且在這個ROM的過程中我們會慢慢發現缺點大概都是ROM一陣子以後它就會穩定那F16現在這個新裝的這個新型的MNC在今年年初以後它的這個新的軟體上機以後在去年年初上機以後它的這個故障率已經明顯的降低現在的狀況已經趨於穩定它的故障率並沒有"},{"start":7965.874,"end":7993.313,"text":"高於其他的系統我們去年有對MMC做系統的更新一直在做每隔一陣子就會做那更新之後你說會降低因為這個速度 速電頻率我今天時間不夠沒辦法問我最後只請教一個問題因為時間關係我聽相關的同仁我們的袍澤弟兄說1122機的求生發報機連在潛水的時候那個潛水 深水潛水的時候都會失效這一次它也沒有訊號出來我們的1122機到底有沒有問題"},{"start":7995.794,"end":8021.312,"text":"112機是美軍現役的求生發報機所以說我們也是經過爭取以後因為它裡頭有戰場加密功能也是經過爭取以後美軍才開放供售給我們那當然這是無線電機無線電機在水只要是無線電的東西在水底下它的信號當然都是沒辦法出來的所以說它並沒有說是因為觸水就失效而是它受到這個物理"},{"start":8022.473,"end":8040.87,"text":"這個環境的限制如果它真的沉到水裡的話它當然這個無線電信號是沒辦法發出來的電波發不出來那它是彈射出來它就自動啟動還是人要去按它我們現在都是因為要讓飛行員在彈射的時候受到激勵它就可以自動發射信號所以說它就是在彈射的那一刻它就應該要發射信號它應該會自動發射"},{"start":8042.672,"end":8057.06,"text":"那觸水到水裡面是因為那個波紋沒辦法傳遞它另外還有一個海水觸發的功能所以說實際上它是有雙重保障的就是你彈射出來它會觸發你碰到海水它會觸發這些都是維繫生命非常重要的裝備我是覺得要經常性高比例的抽驗"},{"start":8058.362,"end":8079.696,"text":"因為這個1122機如果你說觸水它會觸發會打開來可是到水裡面有一定的深度它的無線電波又傳不出來我們周邊都是水域嘛這飛行員在每次在上機在著裝的時候都有相關的測試的要檢查另外從我們檢視從114年到現在這個1122機都沒有故障的記錄好 謝謝 那我時間到這邊我們後續我們再繼續追蹤好 謝謝定宇 趙偉"},{"start":8093.099,"end":8108.147,"text":"好 接下來進行詢答的委員 陳俊宇委員好 謝謝召委 我們有請顧部長來 部長請部長早部長"},{"start":8117.714,"end":8129.681,"text":"近幾年中共對於我們台灣的軍事脅迫的量能持續在增加共軍擾台的數量也從2022年到2023年1700多架到2024年的5109架我們也推估2025年的總數還會更高"},{"start":8139.586,"end":8164.681,"text":"甚至在我們今天所聚焦的這一場軍演當中還出現當日的這個130架次的這個紀錄那在去年底這場軍演時間較以往來得更晚尤其在這個12月底東北季風強烈台灣周邊海域的這個海象通常不好的情況之下但是解放軍卻還是挑在這個時間點來進行軍演"},{"start":8167.682,"end":8189.008,"text":"從我們東部戰區所公布的資訊來看雖然提到要打擊台獨和外部干涉的勢力但是在化社演習區仍然刻意避開日本顯示這次的演訓主要的目標還是要封控台灣的港口並且後續軍演的10個小時當中統計有941"},{"start":8194.052,"end":8209.758,"text":"航班還有10萬旅客受到影響造成我們空運航線的重大衝擊中共在去年12月29日早上也宣布要進行演習但是也由於年底是共軍演訓的熱期"},{"start":8211.559,"end":8240.408,"text":"本來就不排除相關的可能性那我們國安單位也應該有4千有掌握這個相關的情資那我們從這個東部戰區的這個公告來看他們這次演習包含四大科目其一就是這個海空戰備的這個警巡還有第二個是奪取中和治權再來是要港要域的一個封控那"},{"start":8241.388,"end":8270.157,"text":"以及新增加的這個外線立體這個褶組等其中新加入的這個外線立體褶組解讀上應該是為了要防止美國跟日本等外國軍事資源介入這個台海但我們從實際的這個演練內容來看這項科目在演習當中還有什麼樣的意涵實際上有沒有新的做法這個部分是不是請部長簡要說明一下科目委員報告我想這個部分我們"},{"start":8272.821,"end":8288.967,"text":"我們就只講說它一個比較明顯的共軍動態來跟委員報告好了第一股當然就是說在12月27號到28號有共艦兩艘陸續通過宮古海峽進入西太平洋然後在30號有十環這個東海這樣的一個動態"},{"start":8290.089,"end":8311.242,"text":"另外一個就是說有共機的八架在29號通過了宮古海峽進入西太平洋然後當日就沿這個航線來返航另外當然就是西太平洋有一個南站回來的這個兩棲的攻擊艦的編隊那我想"},{"start":8312.823,"end":8327.878,"text":"我們不去詳細的幫他演繹什麼叫做外線立體擇阻我們只是就實際的狀況來跟委員做個說明那不管共軍使用什麼樣的戰術名稱我想這些舉動都已經嚴重迫害區域的穩定來挑戰國際秩序"},{"start":8329.284,"end":8354.467,"text":"好 那我們也確實有掌握到共軍在這次的這個軍演當中發射了27枚遠程火箭那第一波是落在我們基隆東北方第二波是落在我們台南的西方那鄰近我24海里這個臨街線的周邊並且擔任涉及任務的是號稱中國版的這個海馬式"},{"start":8356.641,"end":8375.27,"text":"遠程相似的火箭炮先前遠程火箭對台灣的威脅已經受到高度的關注並逐步在進行更大規模的部署這次又有貼近實戰的演練我想請教部長跟您討論是我們怎麼解讀火箭"},{"start":8376.21,"end":8393.383,"text":"軍的這個動態並且在這次演習沒有發射這個彈道飛彈是否代表遠程火箭將成為攻軍攻台的一個主要火力那國防部目前怎麼評估他對我們台灣的一個威脅我們主要採取什麼樣手段來做反制"},{"start":8394.826,"end":8422.353,"text":"我想如果共軍真的要進行所謂聯合火力打擊的話那我想相關的這些不管是彈道飛彈或者是遠程火箭跟其他各類型的飛彈都是它可能攻台的一個火力選擇的一個項目那我們對於各型的火力系統都要持續掌握然後要依整體的作戰情境來進行綜合的研判這我想"},{"start":8425.049,"end":8432.737,"text":"那對於我們這個因應這個不管是遠程火箭或彈道飛彈威脅我們的防護手段有包括這個"},{"start":8434.731,"end":8457.32,"text":"這個主動攔截跟各式的被動防禦的作為那我想這個部分有四色機敏就暫不以對外公開好那另外我們在這一次的演訓當中掌握到中共的這三艘航空母艦包括遼寧號 山東號 還有福建號都沒有參與這一次的軍演那我想請教部長我們判斷是什麼原因那是否有觀察到"},{"start":8457.768,"end":8476.569,"text":"其他這個共軍基建在演習期間在第一第二島鏈之間進行相關的這個演練有沒有就我們掌握的是中共航母三艘在軍演期間都在港都在港並沒有任何出動那您剛剛問的其他的共"},{"start":8477.632,"end":8497.265,"text":"軍的基建我想就跟剛剛您前面垂詢的一樣我們有看到27 28有共機兩艘通過宮古海峽進入西太然後30號石環然後共機的八架通過在29號通過宮古然後另外當然他南站有一個LHA就是兩棲的攻擊艦那他"},{"start":8498.294,"end":8522.802,"text":"之前由湛江起航之後那後在我想應該是在現在看到回程有經過巴士海峽那在這個也返航的期間有參加這個共軍的這一次的針對性軍演然後也航進我們的東南的這個海域但狀況就是這樣子好那"},{"start":8524.045,"end":8550.976,"text":"比起這個哈姆那在這次這個演習當中我們看到零七五型動拐五的這個兩棲攻擊艦首度的參與對台的軍演或許這個更值得我們注意的是由於這個零七五型的可以同時搭載多架直升機快速運送一定規模的這個兵力展開登陸作戰那不論是對於台灣或是周邊國家都構成極大的威脅我想請教部長"},{"start":8551.616,"end":8579.186,"text":"那就國防部的掌握我們這次看到零七五型在台灣東南外海進行這個核種的這個訓練我們目前在東部的這個部署是否有這個足夠的量能來反制它所帶來的這個威脅就我們現在所偵測到的應該在我們周邊海域的活動期間它沒有做這個直升機的一個從甲板起飛的一個動作"},{"start":8581.055,"end":8606,"text":"沒有啦沒有那對於我們的這個威脅您個人認為我想這個兩棲攻擊艦它的一個boost或者LPD像這樣的類型的boost它是確實是會在我們東邊做一些常態性也有一些也平常也不只是這個針對性的軍演這樣子好"},{"start":8606.618,"end":8635.795,"text":"那就這個不論是零七五型兩棲攻擊艦的參與還是對我們東部戰力構成的相對的威脅性還是說以這個遠程火箭取代彈道飛彈企圖對我們進行這個低成本的這個飽和攻擊等等還有可能這個中國這一次也利用了許多這個AI生成假影像進行認知作戰都顯示這個敵人的手段"},{"start":8636.835,"end":8659.127,"text":"變得更為這個複合且靈活那我也想這個部分請國防部就是持續去掌握相關的情質以確保我們國家的一個安全我想中國應該都是會除了這個用軍事威懾之外也會不斷的搭配認知戰法律戰然後甚至輿論戰那等等這些我們"},{"start":8660.729,"end":8677.324,"text":"這種複合式的威脅我們都要結合相關的這些單位都來進行一個有效的應對這我想那我們會一直不斷的來根據他的這種這種複合式的威脅的一些改變我們也會來設法進進這樣子好 以上謝謝部長的答詢"},{"start":8692.775,"end":8701.339,"text":"謝謝主席有請國防部的顧部長以及外交部的陳次長一起好嗎 等一下就不需要上來謝謝兩位請來先請教部長是 兩位這個大家很關心F16-14的這個事情那個飛行員現在情況怎麼樣有打擾到了沒有"},{"start":8718.531,"end":8731.889,"text":"我們現在有就我早上6點的我們派出了30的飛機架子然後有22艘然後另外無人機有兩架那都在全力的進行這個輸贏當中現在還沒有"},{"start":8734.752,"end":8755.96,"text":"再有進一步的一個是 我想全國人民都希望他能夠平安無事啦這個國防部這邊也在努力一下一定要想辦法這個要幫他救急那失事的主因啊這個外界也不斷的講大概我想是部長在這裡已經講了大概有人歸納為"},{"start":8757.972,"end":8767.328,"text":"兩大點或者是好幾點第一個就是主電腦任務電腦的故障再過來是夜間飛行空間的迷失這兩點你們認嗎"},{"start":8770.149,"end":8794.912,"text":"我想請包委員 這個還是一樣就是說四次調查的過程中我們不宜做太多的臆測那避免誤導整個調查的方向所以說我們不排除任何的可能這兩個是原因之 可能性很高吧可能是原因之一 但是我們不做臆測另外有一個就是自動防撞系統沒有裝這是怎麼樣"},{"start":8797.756,"end":8819.688,"text":"這個剛剛也跟前面委員報告過防撞系統本來在我們奉展就是我們block兩棟性能提升裡面是沒有這個工項的那也不幸的在107年發生了一個F16撞山的事件之後我們在隔月就請美方來做簡報那才把後來才爭取預算把這一個工項目前還沒有完成什麼時候可以裝"},{"start":8822.558,"end":8829.38,"text":"預判今年年底可以安裝上機再請教比較技術問題或者我請教我對我來講是外行的這裡提到F16V是不是我們要買66架那個F16V不一樣吧 對不對這個是block 兩棟那個是拐棟 對 不一樣"},{"start":8844.885,"end":8854.871,"text":"一個是類比式的非超的系統一個是數位式的非超系統所以這也就是為什麼自動防撞系統本來是裝在全數位式的那現在把它裝在類比式如果是按照前面講的話我們就可以看到這些"},{"start":8862.135,"end":8890.413,"text":"這些都是維護的問題啊那就產生了一個問題囉我們在2020年才成立很大啦啦的很大聲的講因為我們的F16大概全球如果把F16加進來數量最多了吧F16A、B啦Upgrade啦 鳳翔Upgrade什麼之類的然後加上要來的F16價全球幾乎最多我們成立一個F16維修中心亞太維修中心"},{"start":8891.574,"end":8908.552,"text":"結果結果今天來講這不是2020成立而且那個是在offset一個program裡面經濟部主導的成立這個結果很漏氣啊maintenance維護維修結果自己弄得不怎麼樣現在再怎麼樣你們現在"},{"start":8910.134,"end":8911.896,"text":"現在沒有把結果是講出來可是外界怎麼看波斯抽檢就是維修的問題 維護的問題不管是你電腦或者是空中飛行的問題都是維修的問題啊難道不是嗎 對不對長官"},{"start":8924.75,"end":8940.752,"text":"包委員這應該不是維修的問題因為維修中心當時成立的時候是針對比較能夠快速取得國內能夠製作那還有很重要一個因素它叫美政府的第三方轉移同意然後原廠要同意轉移"},{"start":8941.761,"end":8944.364,"text":"現在就是美國有些關鍵技術不給我們是核心技術的部分他沒有轉移的話其實我們是不能做維修兩位請回 次長我就問一句話而已現在看到最新的川普總統他sign了說美國要退出66個國際組織那這樣一來的話我們"},{"start":8964.445,"end":8968.368,"text":"我們現在參加國際組織幾乎都是美國在背後幫我們忙包括WHA 包括WHO之類的還有其他很多的周邊組織等等的都是美國在幫忙現在美國退出 我們怎麼辦我們在川普總統就任之後多次明確表達對我們的國際支持的支持"},{"start":8987.165,"end":9008.276,"text":"那麼國際參與的支持喔 那麼我們也都有感謝喔那麼相關的這個政策方面我們都跟這個美國政府保持密切的一個聯繫喔那麼這個事情上面我們現在還是保持這樣你沒有回到問題啊我說他現在自己都退出 而且按照Rubio講的他現在支持66個 還有後續還有增加一些就越來 他越來越一直退出他覺得成本效益美國他退出 對不對他就是看到美國這一塊 其他他要退能夠退"},{"start":9016.88,"end":9034.028,"text":"那這種情況之下我們以前參加的國際組織都是靠美國幫我們講話那未來怎麼辦比如大家念茲在茲的CPTPP他早就不在啦所以他也沒辦法聽我們講話啊那其他的比如說我們想加入的IKEA或最少是觀察員WHA這個現在來講都失去美國這種幫我們講話的一個動力在哪裡"},{"start":9040.971,"end":9059.096,"text":"包委員我們還是跟其他理念相近的國家密切合作爭取那麼事實上在國際參與上面美國並沒有減少他對我們的支持那他有會在透過各種的管道跟其他的會員國跟理念相近的國家表示他願意支持我們這樣的一個參與好啦一句話啦希望你們就是要告訴美方雖然你退出了我們希望你幫我們講話啦就是這個意思啦謝謝賴視保委員"},{"start":9070.339,"end":9097.953,"text":"本席提醒外交部川普簽署的31個聯合國組織35個非聯合國組織他沒有公佈明細他到底退出哪些組織你們要掌握一下因為剛才賴委員所關心的不管RKL WHO或者是看起來比較明確只有UNFCCC但是其他到底還有哪些沒有人知道所以你們如果不知道狀況你沒有辦法去研判你該怎麼應酬這個本席提醒"},{"start":9099.614,"end":9125.695,"text":"對 你們如果掌握到是哪66個 或者美國公佈了也許我們委員會再來討論 好 謝謝好 接下來進行詢問的委員是林楚瑩委員那個 林委員本席跟妳參詳一下休息一下嗎 可以可以沒問題 可以Hold得住嗎"},{"start":9127.13,"end":9134.9,"text":"好 那我就盡量不要超過時間謝謝 謝謝部長那我先宣告一下 待會林淳於委員討論結束我們休息五分鐘好"},{"start":9137.48,"end":9157.646,"text":"好有請顧部長以及我要請國安局的檢副局長這樣一起會比較有效率一點部長早我要問的其實這個問題我在問上禮拜詢問這個僑委會的委員長的時候也有提過但我不是就範重炒而是呢其實我們都知道這個對於國軍的滲透"},{"start":9160.427,"end":9181.117,"text":"方方面面那麼之前我也曾經提過包括借款的方式等等那麼這個已經被僑委會證實其實是一個所謂的假的又或者是所謂的借殼上市的這樣的一個組織那麼他特別直指是要國軍或者是志願役那麼要徵求他們的軍裝然後來把"},{"start":9185.539,"end":9191.364,"text":"這個所謂投降改成反戰因為我們知道在隔壁的會議室當中我們正好在修這個陸海空軍刑法啦喔那麼這樣的一個作為跟做法包括你看他提供的這一個信箱他就是at163.com這是中國的信箱那麼當面對這樣的狀況的時候我不知道國防部是不是有了解到現在這種所謂的假僑團調軍中照那麼像這樣子的一個做法喔"},{"start":9215.443,"end":9223.137,"text":"而且這個我沒有特別列出來的是在我質詢之後他沒有下架他反而改了一個方式甚至於他依照不一樣的軍種他還給不一樣的價碼"},{"start":9227.397,"end":9252.314,"text":"那像這樣的一個做法確實它某種程度上會不會是國軍的新的滲透的手法那麼國防部目前有注意到這樣的部分嗎我想現在中國它滲透的這個手法確實是越來越多樣我想我們主要是有一個國安聯防機制我們會協調大局跟刑事局還有各國安單位我們會針對這個網路傳遞的"},{"start":9255.896,"end":9265.021,"text":"網路這樣子一個相關的手法我們要加強那個網路的巡檢那詳細的部分好像我了解這是一個要不要說明一下"},{"start":9267.464,"end":9295.402,"text":"我是保安署署長這是一個一次性的帳號後面他有衍生其他我們都有反求他的IP位置確實是他是要匡遍我們國軍線推人員把這些資料送上去之後他去獲得你的個人資料然後去吸收利用那這個目前我們有掌握到也有通報國安單位共同來應酬這個我們都有成立在國安局的專案機制下都有共同的在追爭以上報告"},{"start":9295.982,"end":9300.404,"text":"好 謝謝表示說其實現在國防部跟相關單位是有動起來為什麼會來特別質詢這個就是因為我也要必須強調為什麼我這個資訊是怎麼來的我這個資訊其實是來自於另外一個所謂靠北長官但是這個靠北長官很有趣他叫做靠北長官2026知己知彼大陸軍情我們知道其實像這樣的社群平台不勝美舉"},{"start":9323.055,"end":9329.22,"text":"我個人認為啦站在言論自由的角度真的有的時候各行各業都會有靠北什麼什麼這個我們以前在媒體也有所謂的靠北長官這個都是他們抒發但是如果說這樣子的這個社群媒體的存在他完全不單純因為我特別去了解了一下他"},{"start":9344.253,"end":9363.641,"text":"是分享大陸多種資訊避免井底之蛙看起來好像是要提供中國甚至於解放軍的資訊但是他所設立的地點在鳳凰城而他的管理員裡面部長你看一下有寫CAI"},{"start":9364.981,"end":9367.263,"text":"這個拼音應該是菜啦可是台灣的菜應該不是這樣拼然後還有什麼彎彎go home彎彎回家這個都是中國慣用的統戰術語所以顯然這樣的管理員不單純"},{"start":9383.9,"end":9388.023,"text":"那麼裡面如果你去細看它的內容那就更詭異了比如說呢它有這個影片雖然說是要來顯示台灣的國軍威武但是裡面其實都是在講中國的解放軍有多強大然後呢有幫忙宣傳中國的貿易戰的說法甚至於還有什麼假借貸就是之前我非常關心的就是幫國軍弟兄"},{"start":9414.14,"end":9416.744,"text":"解圍讓他們好過年三個月零利息那麼就像剛剛也有報告過的這些零零種種喔這樣的新滲透的型態首先我還是要強調我不是要箝制言論自由因為最近在野黨不斷的在扣這樣的帽子"},{"start":9430.763,"end":9439.795,"text":"但是這樣的透過社群平台的滲透它確實存在那麼像這樣子到底要用什麼方式有效的杜絕難道說只是剛剛所講的我們聯手國安單位或者是調查單位來做處理嗎因為"},{"start":9446.903,"end":9461.152,"text":"這個畢竟是一個封閉的社群到底有哪些國軍弟兄有去參與了甚至於被他吸收到了訊息甚至於丟出一些相關的機密這個部分真的有辦法來做了解跟釐清嗎"},{"start":9463.34,"end":9491.64,"text":"我想我們一方面要對國軍我們有一個規定就是這個國軍在使用社群媒體的一個我應該是另班在去年沒有 前年的應該已經是前年的10月28號10月28我們另班的國軍人員使用社群媒體的一個陰性注意事項所以我們會加強宣導這個國軍他們特別是現役的人員他在使用這些社群媒體要"},{"start":9492.25,"end":9495.814,"text":"要注意的一些事項那當然現在我們還有一些"},{"start":9497.813,"end":9526.048,"text":"就是說他在網路上不斷的進行誘吸這些作為我們這個在軍中的整個相關的這些保護的工作我們都要來加強來進行這樣子好 謝謝部長那我要就叫這個國安局的簡副局長因為副局長過去您剛好是有這個相關的資通電軍的背景所以來詢問你這個我想也是您的專業因為我覺得揭露是最重要的"},{"start":9526.468,"end":9533.012,"text":"那麼目前本席為什麼特別一再的質詢的部分就是希望透過質詢能夠進行揭露但是對於國安局來講包括你看他特別的故意設計不論是真的或假的他就把他擺在這個所謂美國的鳳凰城那麼像這樣的部分我們在"},{"start":9544.64,"end":9569.066,"text":"跟其他比如美國或是其他相關的單位除了我們內部的所謂訊息相通之外那麼對外的部分我們有一些其他的合作嗎包括像這樣子以假美國或是真美國但是其實是在美國的地點來進行對於台灣國軍的滲透又或者是做資料的收集那這個部分國安局有什麼樣相對因應的作為嗎"},{"start":9571.187,"end":9590.215,"text":"向委員報告一下我們目前針對於友方目前針對情報的合作是都有密切的接觸針對這些利用在國外的網站網址的部分我們也都做交換的情資即使在我們國內的部分我們也請相關的偵查單位去做調子去做相關的演習是有的"},{"start":9590.697,"end":9600.908,"text":"好那本席其實要求很簡單就是像這樣如果必要的時候要必要的揭露而揭露的對象不一定是大眾尤其是像剛剛部長也有特別提到了對於我們國軍弟兄他們在社群媒體上面的使用是有一個特別的規範但是一旦發現這種有疑義有問題的就請他們其實要有一些警惕"},{"start":9612.381,"end":9630.232,"text":"那麼這樣的揭露不一定要對一般的民眾但是我認為在軍中對於袍澤的部分其實是可以提供那包括連退役的當然這是退伏會的部分那麼這樣子就可以避免他們誤入其中的陷阱可以嗎是 我想這我們應該要努力的方向"},{"start":9631.678,"end":9653.024,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝林楚英委員各位請回我們現在休息5分鐘謝謝沈伯陽委員體諒然後另外部長我有傳給我們石文榮中將我們現在正在搜救我們的袍澤弟兄有粉磚竟然用木資要租船去幫忙搜救"},{"start":9654.346,"end":9676.689,"text":"那這個其實第一個我們搜救範圍怎麼可能讓民間包船去那邊幫忙搜救那這不只增加搜救的困擾這個集資可能還涉及相關法律的違法行為所以我有轉給我們那個石中將這個其實要請檢調相關單位去了解一下那個已經在公開募資 這個要注意一下好 我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":10062.152,"end":10072.641,"text":"來 我們準備開會好 我們休息結束接下來進行詢答的請各位就座我們接下來進行詢答的委員是沈博洋委員好 謝謝主席有請部長來 部長請"},{"start":10092.046,"end":10115.126,"text":"部長好 當然今天因為這一個F16的事情大家都應該非常的關心因為前面我覺得也是蠻多委員都已經問過相關的內容所以這個部分我可能就不再問現在對我們來講搜救應該還是最重要的事情還是不做過多的臆測等到這一個相對應的報告出來之後我們可能來日有時間的時候再來做一個詢問"},{"start":10116.427,"end":10141.264,"text":"所以這次我還是先問這次原本排的軍演的主題其中有幾個小地方就是說因為大概在12月29號下午的時候網路上就出現國防部長休假未歸這樣的假消息我看它流傳的速度非常快你看我左上角的這個截圖它短短的時間是大概12萬的觀看"},{"start":10143.866,"end":10169.987,"text":"那接下來就有大量的這個帳號全部都在講一樣的內容那這個對我來講當然是是很有疑問的一件事情那我認為在最後國防部出來澄清的方式是很妥當的就是有這樣的一個畫面說其實這個部長一直都在然後也是在跟大家討論這個軍演應該怎麼對抗所以我現在想要問的事情就是說理論上因為"},{"start":10170.768,"end":10194.085,"text":"不管是軍演還是未來我們會遇到的這些危難這些所謂的假消息所謂的這些謠言一定會跟這次軍演比起來大概是等比級數的增加所以我們一定是有相關的單位在負責這件事情我就不要問是哪一個單位或者說也不用請單位上來講但因為公布這張照片的時候已經是12月30的中午"},{"start":10195.006,"end":10219.377,"text":"那這一個呢是在12月29大概下午我記得一兩點的時候就開始油了也就是說它整整燒了24小時然後呢澄清才出現那這個對我來講會很麻煩是我後來大概重整了一下這個流量大概超過30萬到40萬支普這個謠言其實傳得非常非常的廣那我們有沒有什麼應該比較好的機制就是說我們能夠在更早的時間就發現"},{"start":10220.317,"end":10248.118,"text":"因為第一個要先發現就跟我們這個無人機的系統一樣假設我們今天在偵測的時候根本就偵測不到對方就算我們有干擾槍也沒有意義所以我們一定要先偵測到有這樣的一個謠言的散播然後它有一定的量然後我們在多短的時間之內要快速的回應因為在那個時候大家都很忙但是不管怎樣國防部一定會有一個要主責這些事情的人所以能不能夠更快速的回應這件事情呢接下來有沒有什麼更好的機制"},{"start":10249.712,"end":10272.632,"text":"跟委員報告 我想我們事後來檢討就是說因為在當時這個因為說由交通部長站帶這件事情就很離譜我們下面他有些留言說這個是假消息所以也許我們在評估這個危害程度的時候我們可能"},{"start":10272.972,"end":10296.068,"text":"沒有太以一個比較比較應該怎麼講就是說一個標準一個比較更就是說我們在評估這個危害程度的時候我們應該要不要失準我想我們事後來回應這件事情那所以我們"},{"start":10298.639,"end":10316.468,"text":"當然所以應該確實如您所指教的是說29號發生這樣的事情的時候我們應該要立即就就要回應那當然我們事後當然實際上這個在在在這個信息這個是一件事當然後來我們也在"},{"start":10317.868,"end":10336.821,"text":"臨時記者會我們有再次對外說明但是委員執教說我們能不能再快一點這件事情我覺得我們是可以來檢討的對 因為像以我們自己來講我第一時間看到的時候我一定會想要趕快做回應但我要做回應之前我一定要先參考官方的說法但是官方那時候其實真的大家都在忙"},{"start":10337.501,"end":10363.193,"text":"所以因為畢竟就是軍演嘛這件事情其實對國防部來講是馬上需要去應對你也不知道他有沒有可能油煙轉戰啊等等之類的所以呢有沒有特別的這樣的任務變質確實像我那一天我們都在忙這個軍演的事情事實上我自己都不知道有這樣的事所以我們這個戰戰單位或者是發言人確實還是要有一些快速的評估"},{"start":10363.473,"end":10390.785,"text":"委員好 報委員我是發言人這段跟委員報告一下錯假訊息回應確實是一個很嚴重的問題這裡面我們面對的也有一些挑戰比方說因為它現在錯假訊息海量很多我們在評估到底什麼樣的訊息要回覆什麼樣的訊息我不要回覆免得說它本身沒有太大的量我回了以後反倒把它的量突出來了所以我們在發現錯假訊息我們一定會先評估說它的影響大概什麼樣的一個狀態它的滲透狀態大概怎麼樣"},{"start":10392.506,"end":10419.921,"text":"我們的大眾對這個錯假訊息接受程度怎麼樣以部長休假這個訊息來說在29號當天晚上我們看到的時候其實它的第一個量不大第二個我們已經有些民眾在底下留言說這是假訊息所以我們大概那個時候還在觀察它的一個狀況那到30號我們發現30號清晨的時候我們發現它的量開始擴散的時候所以我們30號其實就開始採取一些措施然後配合記者會的部分也把這個訊息來去做一個說明"},{"start":10421.082,"end":10435.088,"text":"其實在判斷這些事情到底會燒還是不會燒它有幾個標準我還是要講第一個回應的內容其實是非常好的因為你不要去跟對方進入細節就直接一個照片大家自然就會引用說你們部長的照片就在這裡就在這邊坐鎮這個指揮這個回應的內容是完全沒問題的"},{"start":10438.849,"end":10464.301,"text":"那它到底因為一開始看起來量沒有大但你看後來到十幾萬 二十幾萬為什麼會這個樣子呢通常有兩件事情第一個是它的源頭就是有一些它是經常性的造謠的源頭所以那個源頭就算它一開始沒流量它有可能會被後續炒作第二個就是在轉發的那些帳號是不是常常在做這些事情的帳號其實這兩個標準一旦符合了就算一開始不燒可能六小時以後它就會燒那這時候"},{"start":10466.002,"end":10486.263,"text":"就是說先出來講講也不要講它細節因為就像剛剛提到的你講細節你再幫它擴散就一張照片而已一張照片簡簡單單的告訴大家我們現在在做什麼這其實就已經有那個效果所以我覺得當然每一次我們遇到這樣的狀況我們就是不斷不斷的精進所以這一次有做到好的地方但也有可能比較慢的部分反正我們就是不斷的往前精進"},{"start":10487.904,"end":10509.33,"text":"接下來就是這一個事情其實也非常的類似這一個事情就是他播出101的大樓的影像疑似他就說我這個無人機在監控這個在回應的時候其實也有幾個要注意的地方比如說像一開始假設很快速的回應這件事情說這個只不過是旁邊的一個監視器"},{"start":10510.41,"end":10532.442,"text":"他已經預料到你可能會這樣做了以後呢這個他們的戰法叫反射性控制他馬上再丟一個比較遠的照片雖然那個遠的照片看起來我看起來是合成的但是他就會讓你的第一次的這一個闢謠反而落入他的陷阱所以這一個事情要怎麼回應又是另外一門藝術這一個當然少更大為什麼因為這個新聞媒體第一時間還去報導他"},{"start":10534.043,"end":10554.603,"text":"那新聞媒體就是我記得是我們的平面的那個平面的媒體電子化的平面媒體它第一時間報導這個事情的時候那它必燒無疑嘛因為它一定會擴散出去這個傳統媒體的力量非常的強所以呢在這一個方面應該要怎麼做我覺得這也有時候要檢討的地方但是這個因為時間的關係這個我就不多說因為我剛剛前面大概已經講了一些"},{"start":10555.743,"end":10580.31,"text":"因為接下來我有看到就是說這個國安局的專報它這邊其實有特別提到就是說這一次這個中共在這一次12月的時候那個訊息有19000多則異常帳號799組根據我的認知這個看起來是有在往上提高的趨勢然後它也有提到裡面可能有這個所謂的駭客攻擊"},{"start":10581.35,"end":10603.533,"text":"這個我上次質詢的時候大概有問過這個我先跳過這就是我剛剛講的這個判斷準則判斷準則我們私下再討論這個沒問題我們也沒有必要把判斷準則講那麼清楚給中國聽但因為國安局的專報提到第一個大量賬號還有大量的這個網路的攻擊所以我在之前有講過就是因為美國戰爭部11月6號的時候他有推動一個網站司令部的改革"},{"start":10604.033,"end":10626.739,"text":"那網站steampecker就是為了要應對這些事情他不是只有在應對跟駭客有關的他也有應對跟這些所謂的錯假訊息有關的所以他的這個整體的因為連美國戰爭部都說這個因為他們的網站其實對我們來講其實已經非常先進了結果他們都還說還要再做更進一步的改革這個改革我覺得對台灣一定有一個我們有可能要學習的地方"},{"start":10627.159,"end":10651.953,"text":"所以我在過去呢在針對尤其像我們的資通電啊等等之類的有提出一些建議不管是輔導他的這一些證照的這個預算要怎麼做啊雖然我們現在總預算一直沒有辦法審然後還包含呢就是他們的績效怎麼計算這件事情我之前有稍微提過都可以整合在裡面那更包含我剛剛在前面講的這些東西我覺得我們這些都可以再往前精進那因為時間的關係所以呢我就大概先到這邊那但之後"},{"start":10653.334,"end":10677.535,"text":"又有類似議題的時候呢或許我們可以再多做討論那謝謝部長 謝謝主席剛剛委員所指教的我們會列入我們台美交流的裡面重要的一環就我們中電軍跟他們的網站的謝謝部長各位請回好 接下來進行詢問的委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來進行詢問的委員是王宏威委員"},{"start":10686.608,"end":10693.222,"text":"謝謝主席我請我們顧立雄部長還有我們空軍司令三部長"},{"start":10699.588,"end":10725.757,"text":"好 兩位好是 部長我先反映一下因為從1月1號開始我們國防部所有在我們各委員會的報告都出現被外界稱之為無字天書當然這個你們是以說要保密為由但是事實上我們都知道我們在立法院收到任何的機密文件事實上都會加封的我們的公文封都會一直加密"},{"start":10726.417,"end":10753.251,"text":"所以我覺得這個真的是多此一舉的形式主義因為像今天我們的國安局也有報告國安局也有很多機密也沒有任何一個部門是用這樣子都是555我覺得這個反而會變成淪為笑柄反而不好那另外呢就是我想還是要稍微回應一下因為我們認為就是說以正確的資料治理或者說保密作為每一份資料在製作的時候"},{"start":10754.031,"end":10761.756,"text":"本來就應該要具體實質精準不然因為我的時間有限喔但是當你們連我不想跟你爭辯這些東西啦主席各位宣敬委員宣敬吳這不是很扯嗎很好笑嗎好我不想把我的時間講比較嚴肅一點的話題喔"},{"start":10773.843,"end":10777.606,"text":"首先我們知道就是前兩天在花蓮外海的這個F16V這個坐機我們現在的飛官上位辛柏毅我們當然知道他還在搶救當中"},{"start":10789.113,"end":10817.178,"text":"但是過去大概十年其實幾乎每一年我們都看到我們優秀的工軍飛官在出現了這樣的一個飛機的一個事件那麼不管是這個勇營高校機幻象2000或者AT-3的教練機等等有一些我們很幸運他們生還但是有很多都殉職我們在這邊還是至上最高最高的敬意"},{"start":10817.998,"end":10841.943,"text":"那麼另外就是在這一次的事件裡面剛才很多委員都討論以及關心到我們相關的包含我們這一家其實已經積零將近30年的這個F16V它事實上是奉展專案但是奉展專案呢一言再言那甚至提到連防寒衣都沒有我想請問部長"},{"start":10843.883,"end":10861.378,"text":"那麼在這兩天我們看到有一些網路上一些側翼說這個防寒衣跟我們這個在野黨立法院沒有通過1.25兆以及國防預算有關係請問一下1.25兆裡面有購買防寒衣嗎"},{"start":10863.049,"end":10881.208,"text":"跟委員報告 我想這個防安衣的這個部分是在114年就請軍購方式籌補就是應該是去年的預算去年的預算就編列對不對那12月底前有開始陸續去年12月底前陸續交貨應該在今年的3月可以交貨完畢"},{"start":10881.849,"end":10896.915,"text":"好 這個我看到你之前有提到所以我們到現在為止我們F16的戰機飛行員沒有防寒衣跟我們1.25兆或明年的這個國防預算無關 是不是"},{"start":10898.437,"end":10925.737,"text":"這個防寒衣的分擔沒有在這個特別預算裡面所以我覺得我們這邊一定要先正本清源一下就是我們所有的預算該買就要買 該給就要給而防寒衣的預算我們確實有給好給滿那請問一下我們去年要採購的是我所了解是要一千兩百多件嘛 是不是大概是一千三百多件一千三百多件 到現在為止交貨幾件"},{"start":10927.877,"end":10952.799,"text":"陸陸因為去年下訂了之後目前現在一件都沒有嗎沒有像我們慢速機的部分200套400多套已經交了200套那因為戰鬥機的部分他要比較符合量身訂製所以說這個部分陸陸續續在交貨所以我確定一下也就是我們去年所採購的這個戰機的防寒衣到目前為止交貨是零"},{"start":10953.399,"end":10968.358,"text":"沒有 像在五聯隊他也已經有部分的交貨因為他的型號的關係 所以說他有的型號已經先交貨有部分已經先交了好 那你三四月間要交貨的數量多少就是全部交完 三月底全部交完"},{"start":10968.598,"end":10984.147,"text":"不是你還剩多少嘛我今天要講的是我們購買F16V買了那麼久沒有交貨好那我們說這個是因為什麼俄烏戰爭啊美國的什麼delay等等之類的那你今天連防寒衣是不是要告訴我同樣的一個理由呢委員這個去年採購今年就交貨了去年年底就開始交貨了"},{"start":10992.708,"end":11008.903,"text":"所以你覺得這交貨是正常的交貨正常的嗎如果交貨正常為什麼我們這一次在這個這個飛官我們的這個新博弈我們的飛官卻沒有防寒衣可以穿呢如果交貨正常為什麼他沒有防寒衣可以穿呢"},{"start":11009.717,"end":11034.851,"text":"這個我們歷任的司令也都非常的重視我們也做過很多的評估因為這個航班飛行衣主要是針對極地地區它會影響到飛行操作所以前面我們也評估過其他的飛行衣它會影響到操作所以說飛行員普遍的反應不好我們也就再尋商所以說這次也很幸運的能夠買到這一套大家都覺得還不錯可以使用又不太妨礙到飛行操作的一個航班飛行衣"},{"start":11035.111,"end":11055.077,"text":"我們主席站起來了我只是要講就是說我們今天的相關的預算不管是奉展專案已經給好給滿但是你就是沒有辦法如期完成到現在防篡系統還是沒有辦法安裝好然後防寒衣也是一樣然後用這個方式再來去批評說再也擋再擋預算"},{"start":11057.178,"end":11083.051,"text":"問題是之前的預算全部給好給滿你們沒有執行沒有到貨然後發生這樣的憾事是應該要去檢討的我剛剛講過去這麼多屆幾乎每一年都發生我希望我們國區弟兄在第一線上我們要給他的設備是充足的尤其我們的預算都已經編列好了但是卻沒有辦法執行這一次確實透露出這樣的很多的一個問題謝謝 謝謝各位請回"},{"start":11085.812,"end":11096.38,"text":"接下來進行訓導委員林倩琪委員林倩琪委員林倩琪委員不在接下來進行訓導委員蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在接下來進行訓導委員馬文君委員謝謝主席麻煩請部長來 顧部長請"},{"start":11112.97,"end":11117.593,"text":"部長好部長本席也有接獲我們的官兵的一個陳情這個也是反映我們在國防部的餐廳用餐我們現在所有包括國軍國防部或國軍司令部高司幕僚單位我們在洗碗或者是像這個使用過的餐具它是怎麼清洗的"},{"start":11146.116,"end":11153.262,"text":"報委員 陸軍參謀長向您報告目前單位 簡單說就好了有些單位有設置洗碗機但是大部分的單位目前還是由邊組的 簡單來說啦就是高屍單位 高屍幕僚單位 國防部其實我們都是用自動洗碗機可是我們在基層我們都還是用人工去洗滌可是因為大家都不是各自的現在有很多他也不認真洗有些在下次使用的時候他都還是有的"},{"start":11174.818,"end":11202.448,"text":"甚至拿起來他還可以用衛生紙擦出一層黑垢這是非常嚴重的問題因為現在大家也非常重視食安我們不管居住不管在營區的配置或者像我們在這用餐的環境我們希望不是只有高市單位有這些改善我們編了很多很多的預算所以這個也不是很貴如果我們的高層都可以用我們希望可以普及到我們所有的基層單位這個部分可不可以做到"},{"start":11204.908,"end":11228.904,"text":"我們會來檢討努力好這個部分因為我想這個是現代化的一個作為啦別人有的很認真洗有的不認真那你現在這樣可能也會造成一些食安的疑慮大家也覺得我們我們的國軍其實是不太進步的啦所以乾淨衛生的用場環境我想這是最基本的條件這個部分請我們國防部盡速改善好不好"},{"start":11229.304,"end":11234.27,"text":"那另外今天大家也非常關切的就是我們F16這個出事的這個問題那我想要請教的因為我們不希望在事故發生以後大家拿這個"},{"start":11246.726,"end":11259.734,"text":"來作為我們的預算是不是要審查的一個條件因為我們這一次總預算沒有審查還沒有還沒有付為很重要的因素我想大家都非常清楚第一個就是我們軍人的"},{"start":11261.915,"end":11275.602,"text":"志願役加薪這個沒有編列進去第二個當然就是警消的這個所得替代率我們希望依法已經通過的可以盡速把它編列我們看到每一次的事故不管是潛艦上一次在海上發生的事故也責損了很多位我們的國軍官兵我們在這一次F16"},{"start":11283.345,"end":11288.047,"text":"的這樣子的一個優秀的軍官然後我們之前在永英號更之前還有F51每一次每一次發生事件以後都說要檢討可是我們每次檢討很多的東西太樣其實是一樣的這跟預算已經沒有關係因為你們錢花了裝備也買了可是你們並沒有確切的改善而且甚至都沒有到貨這個拿來跟現在總預算還沒有過這是無法類比而且是非常可惡的"},{"start":11313.078,"end":11325.683,"text":"所以就這個部分 我想要請教 因為剛剛也有提到因為F16AB這個案子 這個升息案很重要的 我們其實從101年開始 建案到現在101年 我們本來它的期程是101到112這過程當中修了兩次的期程 把它延到117年"},{"start":11337.407,"end":11340.09,"text":"我們的預算也從1100億增加到1400多億這些我們都沒有去做預算的相關的刪減可是我們看到現在陸續還在發生這樣的事情而且像F16當時美方也承諾要透過軍售的合作機制要引進技術跟資源"},{"start":11360.209,"end":11364.351,"text":"包括建立F16維修中心推動國內維修的能量縮短零件交期提升妥善率等等我們為了要達到這樣的目標我們甚至也用掉了我們所有的公和點數除了我們編了這麼高額的預算以外我們也用掉我們的公和點數可是我們看到這一次發生的問題除了防寒衣除了我們在任務電腦"},{"start":11387.304,"end":11401.976,"text":"或者像防撞地系統這些都還沒有安裝甚至發生錯誤或者發生狀況的情況之下我們到底有了什麼那時候還特別用了一個典禮"},{"start":11403.317,"end":11419.513,"text":"在蔡總統的時候我們還說我們要成立亞太維修中心後來亞太拿掉了我們要成立維修中心因為我們除了原來F16AB還有141架現在可能140架可能又要再降低"},{"start":11420.729,"end":11430.254,"text":"還有新買的66架我們可能是世界上最多F16機型的國家可是我們到現在我們反觀韓國他都已經可以製造了我們現在連維修看到這一次包括他的任務電腦不斷出狀況的情況之下顯然我們對這些維修的能力都還沒有做到已經十幾年了"},{"start":11444.201,"end":11445.263,"text":"我們風風光光的拍照成立然後現在這些問題到底在哪裡因為剛剛提到的防撞地系統或什麼其他"},{"start":11455.989,"end":11479.428,"text":"參謀長在這裡我想你非常清楚我們所有的像這樣的一個飛機尤其任務電腦其實是非常重要的它像這一型飛機它當初設計的時候就是不平衡希望讓它更加靈活所以如果沒有飛控電腦飛機就很容易轉圈圈像它飛行員在操作的時候它就會如果它有點"},{"start":11480.569,"end":11481.85,"text":"也類似防撞系統吧如果這個一旦任務電腦他判斷飛行員的操作他就會影響所有的飛機安全比如說在內的話內在的部分他可能會"},{"start":11496.178,"end":11505.428,"text":"就是它的操作極限在外在比如說撞山或撞地這些非控電腦其實它都可以去做判斷如果發現內外發生這樣的問題的時候它甚至可以把它接手操作對不對可是我們一直發現它不斷的出問題我們為什麼到現在沒有辦法解決這個問題是美方或是漢翔"},{"start":11520.066,"end":11536.142,"text":"或者什麼其他問題跟委員報告自動防撞地系統Auto G-Case這個它是我們F-16 Block兩棟它是類比式的飛控系統那剛剛也講了美軍現在有在用的是就是數位的飛超系統"},{"start":11536.863,"end":11560.953,"text":"我們的Block兩棟是類比式所以說它沒辦法採用美軍這個系統也是因為我們提出來美軍才開始研發我們現在才跟美軍是同步把類比式的飛機安裝Auto G-Case它的訊號轉換成數位才能使用Auto G-Case美國國民兵的Block兩棟兩武跟三棟跟我們是同步正在做"},{"start":11561.673,"end":11589.243,"text":"我們從108年也是感謝大院給我們的預算之後我們才納到鳳展的專案的工項裡面那做了這麼久109年跟美方提出來美方也同步在做研發到現在美軍的類比式跟我們一樣類比式飛超的飛機一架都還沒有上機所以說外界可能是誤會了所有的飛機不是都是類比式的飛機數位的飛機可以安裝我們的Block 拐動很快回來它就有"},{"start":11590.003,"end":11595.765,"text":"安裝這個摩托機 參謀長你講到重點我們新的它可能就是已經有具備這樣子的一個裝置可是問題是我們數量最多的原來F16AB升級的這些飛機機型它佔了我們飛機數量的大部分那如果像發生這樣的狀況因為它還是類比式它沒有辦法去做這樣子的調整或者沒有辦法有很好很安全的一個"},{"start":11615.792,"end":11625.422,"text":"飛控電腦裝置的時候這對我們所有的飛官其實都是拿命在飛行或者在訓練甚至或者在就是作戰的這個任務所以這個對我們來說因為我們不要每次都講得非常好"},{"start":11633.51,"end":11636.493,"text":"我們有很多的口號我們拿了很多的預算可是當我們看到所有的結果的時候並不是這樣所以就這個部分我們還是希望大家可以很認真的務實的去釐清他到底發生原因是什麼我們到現在這一次"},{"start":11648.684,"end":11652.106,"text":"又就發生這個最近的事件上一次永英號的結果都還沒有給國人一個清楚的一個答案所以就這個部分我們希望不要發生事情的時候就拿總預算來說嘴我們希望你是一件一件的把它做好"},{"start":11667.492,"end":11693.052,"text":"我們的預算不斷的增加這個預算其實早就已經花了跟現在發生的問題跟總預算是沒有關係的所以我們希望因為所有的同袍我相信發生這樣的事情尤其參謀長你對於自己這樣子發生這樣的事情我們相信大家都不希望可是可以怎麼樣解決這個才是我們要的我們所有的預算該花的我們同意花你今天如果不明不白不清不楚"},{"start":11695.219,"end":11700.162,"text":"丟個幾張然後就跟我們說要多少錢你憑什麼要大家要花那麼多錢你以前花的錢到現在都還沒有到位到現在都還沒有改善到現在都還沒有真的符合我們的需求那這樣都還沒有完成的情況之下為什麼你可以再增加而且還不斷的增加而且數額非常高這個部分我們請國防部還有我們所有各軍大家可以共同努力"},{"start":11721.593,"end":11730.441,"text":"好 謝謝 請馬文君委員請回 各位請回接下來進行訓導委員 葉元之委員葉元之委員 葉元之委員不在"},{"start":11731.784,"end":11758.425,"text":"羅廷維委員 羅廷維委員羅廷維委員不在已登記諮詢委員初步在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林益君委員提出書面諮詢請列入記錄並刊登公報那本期這邊補充提醒國防部有關防寒衣的部分在會後請完整說明一下因為剛才聽起來是2025年"},{"start":11761.722,"end":11785.829,"text":"2024年編2025年的預算就本席印象所及2025年的預算其實也一直審到2025年的1月底那通過之後還有一些要核算跟相關財務法的關係所以一直到3月份預算都還沒抵定所以你們在2025年發包的時候是什麼時候其實因為預算審查的延宕"},{"start":11787.403,"end":11814.997,"text":"年度預算審查的延宕你們執行發包作業應該應該不會太早應該在3月份以後那你們在12月底開始就開始交付從慢速機不用量身訂住的開始交付防寒衣那2026年3月以前會全數交貨完畢因為昨天你們記者會我們可以體諒因為弟兄在外面那個急切感他還是講成明年他以為還在2025講成明年所以這個時間序列"},{"start":11816.758,"end":11843.997,"text":"以及2025年的預算應該在2024年通過結果一直延宕到2025年才審查完略你們才進行相關的採購作業然後到年底就開始交貨那外界可以公平這到底是慢還是快我覺得這時間序列可以把事情真相呈現出來至於以前為什麼不買我們也不怪以前的政府或以前任何人因為防寒衣原來在極地狀況在穿的那個坐在"},{"start":11844.557,"end":11866.068,"text":"尤其那個很緊實的那個Cabot裡面其實不是很好操作所以有一些背景說明清楚我認為在面對生死攸關的事物的時候國軍的將領沒有人會把弟兄袍責的安全當作另外一回事 不會 這個我相信是不會所以請說明清楚那昨天有口誤的我們不苛責 但把它更正就好好 那這個"},{"start":11869.107,"end":11882.648,"text":"今天尋答委員有書面或口頭尋答未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆那委員有指定期限者從期所定本日會議到此結束大家辛苦了我們散會"}]}},{"id":"167007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f54337b1294a98a28397324c55f2e48b25a91ff8743ff8a8cb9b1c587096f49c00dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:19:29 - 12:32:40","影片長度":"00:13:11","會議時間":"2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「大學法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員陳秀寳等22人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「大學法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員柯志恩等21人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員翁曉玲等 16 人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員林月琴等17人擬具「大學法第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T12:19:29+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T12:32:40+08:00","duration":791,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.662218750000001,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.31159375,"end":14.189093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.859718750000003,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.12096875,"end":18.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.454093750000002,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.46659375,"end":60.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.27034375,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.27659375,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.01221875,"end":93.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.04159375,"end":123.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.16784375,"end":135.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.75221875,"end":161.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.13221875000002,"end":169.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.67534375000002,"end":170.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.97471875000002,"end":172.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.45971875,"end":184.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.59284375000001,"end":185.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.99346875,"end":188.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.54159375,"end":197.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.46409375000002,"end":208.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.96034375000002,"end":223.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.60096875000002,"end":214.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.59159375000002,"end":220.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.84034375000002,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.18159375000002,"end":232.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.41659375,"end":232.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.58534375000002,"end":244.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.83659375000002,"end":247.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.12721875000003,"end":263.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.39909375,"end":270.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.62659375000004,"end":265.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.85784375000003,"end":279.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.91971875,"end":280.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.64534375,"end":299.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.79409375,"end":308.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.11346875000004,"end":313.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.24346875000003,"end":331.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.84409375,"end":332.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.02971875000003,"end":334.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.06346875,"end":332.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.86471875,"end":335.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.13034375,"end":358.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.00034375,"end":359.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.68784375,"end":361.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.03784375000004,"end":362.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.69159375000004,"end":364.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.29471875,"end":369.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.27284375000005,"end":391.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.59346875,"end":369.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.51221875000005,"end":377.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.70596875,"end":379.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.30909375000005,"end":381.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.33346875,"end":386.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.32846875,"end":391.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.34534375000004,"end":392.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.35784375000003,"end":395.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.12534375,"end":395.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.39534375000005,"end":402.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.98909375000005,"end":425.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.57096875,"end":406.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.78409375,"end":419.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.14159375,"end":429.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.21284375000005,"end":430.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.83721875000003,"end":444.29909375000005},{"speaker":"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麻煩請次長還有國教署好 請副市長跟國教署代表副署長上好我先來關心一個國教狀況因為我之前曾經也有提過現在因為行政大逃亡很多學校高中 國中都有這個狀況"},{"start":31.491,"end":60.163,"text":"就是他們要招學務處的組長都招不到一般來說都是先叫老師兼老師不願意兼因為工作太繁重所以就找代理老師代理老師前兩招是找有教師證的也都招不到後來就找沒有教師證的代理教師然後有的坐一下就離開坐一下要離開所以其實我有提出一個想法之前教育部跟考試院也願意評估就是說有沒有可能讓"},{"start":61.883,"end":82.079,"text":"學務處 比如說升教組或是相關組內的行政人員像幹事 他們是經過教育行政考進去的幹事來代理 甚至來升任來解決這個行政大逃亡的狀況然後一方面讓老師教學回歸教學行政來做行政"},{"start":83.942,"end":92.036,"text":"教育部跟當時人事警政總處有說願意評估我現在更進一步具體的建議一個事情我們現在看一下"},{"start":93.066,"end":116.28,"text":"我们现在教育行政的高普考的科目,其实它都不是学生事务的专业,这个次长你也可以来看一下,不是学生事务专业,因为现在学生事务专业,它的关键的领域都非常的复杂,它牵涉到像性贫,霸凌,校园危机处理,药物滥用,多元文化,还有高风险的学生辅导等等。"},{"start":116.9,"end":135.418,"text":"那你現在如果讓現場的教師來處理的話那教師原本進到學校都是要教學啊就忽然間你要他來處理這些事務啊我覺得他也會面臨很高的法律風險然後甚至於就是會也會面臨到很多不確定的狀況那如果讓就是"},{"start":136.843,"end":161.231,"text":"比如說沒有教師證的代理老師來監來處理這麼複雜的學生事務如果沒有受過相關的訓練一樣也會讓這些代理老師面臨到風險所以這邊具體建議一件事情假設教育部有願意讓公務人員就是考教育行政的公務人員來做這麼複雜的專業的行政工作的話是不是可以"},{"start":162.873,"end":184.867,"text":"從這個教育行政這個職系裡面獨立出來一個教育學生事務的職系那這個幾件幾個內容第一個內容如果要有這個獨立的職系的話那你考試的科目就要跟我剛剛講的這些相關的關鍵領域譬如說性平霸凌校園危機處理這方面校安有相關"},{"start":186.107,"end":208.29,"text":"然後第二就是假設他們考進去這個職系之後他分發到學校裡面那他的工作你就把它範圍就定在這些專業的行政工作然後用這種方式來舒緩就是現在在國教學校的這個教學現場行政大逃亡狀況不知道市長你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":209.008,"end":230.697,"text":"是 謝謝委員指導我想現在因為已經有在跟人總在評估由公務人員來兼任學務主任的一個可行性主長主長的可行性如果更進一步的從那個直系的一個劃分跟應考科目做處理我想我們可以來跟考選部這邊做一些討論"},{"start":233.739,"end":246.584,"text":"第一個就是你可以把這個納進去第二個在師培的部分因為師培就跟高教比較相關因為都是在大學裡面開相關的科系跟學分你也可以稍微檢視一下我會特別提出來真的是因為現在"},{"start":248.571,"end":270.14,"text":"我們現在教育環境跟以前真的很不一樣老師也沒有管教權了都要用什麼自主學習輔導用這種方式去跟學生去處理學生的關係其實變得非常的複雜所以其實應該要檢視一下就是你現在上的課在教程裡面上的課跟實務現場有沒有巨大的落差"},{"start":271.144,"end":299.398,"text":"不然的話他在上那個教程的時候他聽起來理論上是這樣怎麼大家到了那個學校去發現怎麼跟那個都講得不一樣然後等到他如果說等到他才去實習的時候因為教程是你要考教師證是先修教程再去實習等到他去實習才發現這個狀況有時候又想要問老師也沒機會了這個部分我覺得在教程方面你應該也要納進去討論這是第一件事情第二件事情是"},{"start":300.851,"end":307.959,"text":"現在少子化所以很多私校都退場可是我們看到一個數據我要來請教一下次長"},{"start":309.158,"end":333.757,"text":"就是這些學生他的學校如果說關校了然後他的休退學的比例是特別很高你可以看很高有的到四成有的到三成八有的到兩成四請問一下次長大部分學生如果他原來的學校退場他不願意繼續就學的原因是什麼"},{"start":336.175,"end":363.658,"text":"因為基本上我們在處理退場學校的時候都會幫學生做好安置而且安置的部分會盡量的第一個會當然以鄰近同性子的學校為優先第二個我們會提供住宿的補貼交通的補貼第三個他在休息的一些學分或是學費的差距我們都會來協助所以他退場的原因是什麼就是他不繼續練的原因為什麼 對啊所以你們都沒有在追蹤"},{"start":364.772,"end":390.945,"text":"應該是說因為我們都會去逐一的詢問學生你要安置到哪個學校你剛剛講的意思是說假設他沒有辦法安排到鄰近的學校他可能要安排到外縣市去他會延伸住宿跟通勤費各方面你們會補助嘛所以他不願意繼續就學的原因應該不是經濟的問題那有可能是因為沒有辦法安置到他想要讀的科系是不是"},{"start":391.405,"end":406.604,"text":"其实我们科学第一个这样听你讲你只有回答说不是经济问题但你没有具体回答我的问题的核心它是什么原因不愿意继续念它是什么原因所以你们要去统计那都是牵涉到追踪"},{"start":407.665,"end":424.566,"text":"你今天教育部當然因為少子化關係教育部安排這些大學退場這是一個趨勢這也沒有辦法可是你不能夠把風險放在學生身上嘛尤其是你現在大學的一個退場的做法是你第一年停招第二年就停辦是不是很多學校是這樣"},{"start":426.189,"end":443.854,"text":"第一年停招第二年停辦有沒有很多學校是這樣那你第一年停招你第一年停招那那個學校是不是有大一大二大三的學生第二年停辦的還有三個年級的學生就必須要被安置這個做法實際上是把風險轉嫁到這些還在學校的學生身上"},{"start":444.761,"end":458.451,"text":"所以你要去追蹤嘛你要去追蹤他們被迫轉學之後他是什麼原因不繼續讀啊難道你會希望說有學生在學校好好的因為學校倒了沒有辦法繼續下去他就不就學你會希望這樣嗎"},{"start":460.119,"end":477.088,"text":"當然不希望嘛所以這個數字就偏高嘛所以請教育部去追蹤好不好去追蹤一下然後你一個月內跟我們講一下相關的原因狀況跟我們講好不好然後再來還有一個現象"},{"start":479.544,"end":485.427,"text":"現在也請教育部來注意一下就是你們現在108課綱有一個學習歷程檔案學習歷程檔案現在願意教的學生也越來越少了"},{"start":499.84,"end":513.009,"text":"你可以看一下最新的資料112學年度一般學生大概沒有提交已經到47.32%經濟弱勢學生62.32%這個比例市長你覺得正常嗎因為學習歷程大概是他升大學的一個參考"},{"start":521.335,"end":542.19,"text":"那你們當初108課剛訂這個學習歷程檔案是希望學生在學習的過程當中自我探索把學習歷程記錄下來然後讓大學作為一個收學生的參考那你當時會希望說大概有將近五成六成的學生不教嗎"},{"start":543.411,"end":565.523,"text":"我跟委員報告因為在當時108我們在做整個考招變革的時候學習歷程檔案就是原來的備審資料那時候我們對外一個宣示就是說這個是學生可以選擇的你可以選擇透過我們學習歷程檔案的時候上傳你也可以來如果說有些學生因為他個人選擇他希望還是用書面的方式呈現"},{"start":566.303,"end":594.696,"text":"那這個部分有人選這個但是我們會告訴他說你選這個當然你的一些公信力資料的一個準確性大學就比較沒把握那這部分是讓學生自己選擇所以我們並沒有去強迫說每個學生一定要做對 你沒有強迫啦因為你訂出這一個指標出來嘛我不知道你有沒有你會希望說大家教得多一點嗎你希望嘛 對不對對 因為透過這個上到對大學來講"},{"start":595.216,"end":620.394,"text":"他透过系统出来的他就知道他的那个真实性会比较高按照教育部的想法其实是希望说大家有教可是实际上你的希望跟现实就是有点落差而且他有逐年提高你看未提交的比例在110全年度其实算低可是到近年已经翻三倍了接近三倍了那你有没有去了解原因"},{"start":621.968,"end":646.986,"text":"這個部分我想書裡面應該有在了解會後我們是把這個好不好再資料還有一個你看一下那個老師幫我轉到那個老師被學生攻擊的這個這是我們跟教育部調資料近三年學生對教師衝突案件統計表114年度也蠻高的就是也是逐年上升現在的教學現場就是老師沒有管教權如果面對比較"},{"start":648.476,"end":669.428,"text":"不好管教的學生其實老師面臨到的風險也高那相對其他同學面臨到的風險也很高我有接觸到教學現場有人跟我反應家長很擔心自己的小朋友因為他們班上就有一個會傷害傷害同學的同學那當然我知道學校也盡量去處置啦譬如說"},{"start":670.951,"end":699.209,"text":"當那個學生他們感覺他可能情緒情緒要發作的時候他們會把學生帶離班級現場就是如果當事學生他沒辦法自己被帶離那就全班帶離但是還是會有風險那所以家長就會不斷的跟學校詢問說你怎麼保護我的學生你怎麼保護我的小孩就一直問一直問一直問那最後學校說我們盡量我們有一個SOP可是當然SOP一定也會有意外發生那所以如果有受傷的話"},{"start":700.33,"end":721.124,"text":"所以你就去告那個同學那家長聽到也會覺得很無奈啊老師也是啊老師如果說他在教學現場如果被學生傷害怎麼辦他也只能去提告啊現在就是說老師跟同學其實有的時候面臨到這個狀況都很難處理啦我不知道這個教育部有沒有什麼因應之道"},{"start":722.23,"end":740.747,"text":"跟文報告我想說針對於現場有這類型的學生我們還是會從學生輔導的角度及時的介入不管是我跟你講這個學生輔導我都聽很久了如果學生輔導你們講的所謂的學生輔導有用的話在現在有用真的這個狀況不會這麼頻繁"},{"start":744.035,"end":761.653,"text":"所以不會這麼頻繁即時的介入那當然即時的介入不管是老師介入還是有專職的輔導人員介入我們部裡面給他的支持跟他適當的一個徵人這就很重要所以這也是目前我們署裡面有在規劃的"},{"start":762.774,"end":787.232,"text":"這部分跟家長這方面的跟這位當事學生的家長的聯繫這個我想這是三方面要一起來做啦但是我還是強調即時的介入處理是最重要的沒有 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因為我們裡面會有涉及到不同的私處 不同的團體的意見所以我們也花了一些時間 做了一些整理希望把最完整的一個意見呈現給各位委員好 我也希望是最完整的但是今天的書面報告扣掉封面跟木刺是23頁通篇看起來主要是彙整大家的意見"},{"start":53.306,"end":81.232,"text":"教育部的意見大概也只有一頁也沒有具體的表達整個政策的方向這樣還要寫這麼久我想這個彙整應該是蠻費時的但是市長今天我的大學法第35條版本其實不是在第一次在委員會上就再提出了早在2024年的4月18日委員會就有討論過那時候排審的是柯昭偉柯志恩委員的35條版本"},{"start":82.674,"end":97.285,"text":"它的用的是家庭所得金額適用稅率12%以內教育部在當時的報告我強調是當時因為用家庭所得金額適用稅率的12%納稅單位集聚為121萬以下約佔總納稅單位的92%所需增加的預算大概是411.81億元"},{"start":113.051,"end":139.978,"text":"約相當於113年高校預算法定的預算的32.27%因此為大幅度的一個排擠避免其他的教育支出所以不同意修法在今天的書面報告就大學法35條就只有一段2024年那個時候還有六頁在說明怎麼大小差這麼多"},{"start":142.305,"end":152.06,"text":"35條是重中之重次長在當次的質詢啊既然不同意家庭所得進額的一個適用稅率在12%"},{"start":153.584,"end":182.643,"text":"我就拋出所得五等份讓最低20%的所得者免學費聚焦真正弱勢的與中低社經背景的這些家庭那個時候我記得是劉次長還答應我說教育部會提供一份所得五等份最低的20%所得者的一個評估報告但是那一份報告我到現在都沒有看到"},{"start":183.524,"end":208.282,"text":"好 請問一下所得五等份最低20%所得者大概需要多少的經費您知道嗎好 各位委員報告我想如果我們會後再把這個評估送給委員那以目前我們的推估大學校院大專以上學生目前大概109萬那我們因為這樣只能用推估推估起來需要的預算大概要將近100億100億是"},{"start":211.005,"end":230.562,"text":"所以是有算出来了只是我还没拿到资料不好意思如果确实先前没提供委员我们会要尽快提供给委员会后提供给我好不好但今天你说的大概是100亿100亿左右那教育部现在的回应呢你们觉得呢这个评估要不要调整成我所建议的你觉得呢"},{"start":231.312,"end":260.672,"text":"根文报告以目前高教跟技职两师一年的预算大概是1325亿那如果说要从里面去云之100亿来讲那大概影响的一个幅度大概是8%左右了对不起 几%大概是8%左右所以这一块可能我们才会希望说在受影响的对象我们来评估一下8%你个人认为影响的幅度会不会很剧烈"},{"start":262.152,"end":288.498,"text":"因為原本的版本在所得稅金額這個總額是12%的話12%大概是312%411億那現在變成8%你覺得呢我跟文報告目前高伎倆是整體投入不管是學雜費減免就學貸款的利息補貼或是我們拉近學雜費方案已經投入238億了是"},{"start":290.839,"end":313.939,"text":"那我们一年高教生根我以目前各公司一大学我们在协助学校做教学特色发展高教生根一年的预算也大概是200亿上下所以如果要再挪100亿出来事实上我们必须要很慎重的去评估当然要慎重因为所有的钱都是用在高教这个部分我们都希望花在刀口上但我认为大概8%"},{"start":315.86,"end":337.188,"text":"100億差不多我認為這個部分的影響是沒有這麼劇烈的我們所提出的這個方案也算是一個折衷的方案也務必請次長將這個方案在你們的內部會議好好的來做一個討論可以嗎好我們會來評估那個影響的範圍跟所需要的經費我們會盡量來看看有沒有其他的方式第二件事情"},{"start":337.768,"end":358.938,"text":"市長大學法距離上一次較完整的修正將近20年這段時間我想高等教育的整個生態環境早就已經徹底的改變了跟以往是根本不一樣的少子化帶來的招生壓力不會我們也相信你們應該都掌握到地方的意見部分學校面臨退場公私校間的一個分化快速擴大"},{"start":359.958,"end":387.304,"text":"学生参与还有监督的意识高涨社会越来越要求大学展现出公共性还有社会的责任面对这样子的一个变化现行的大学法我觉得没办法因应我们的期待所以这次排审的版本其中有一个是部分讨论到校务会议的学生代表的比例以及现行法规不得少于十分之一有提高有提高这个部分希望能够要增加我也有问过"},{"start":388.184,"end":407.635,"text":"學校部分的意見當然他們是說支持提高但提高額度希望能夠討論但教育部的意見呢跟委員報告我想教育部第一個我們當然是支持能夠讓學生的自治參與在校務會議可以進一步的落實所以你支持提高我們是支持提高"},{"start":408.335,"end":426.933,"text":"但是我們也顧及到每個大學我們為了降低大學它可能每個學校的狀況我知道 校園自主 董事會的意見學校自己的做法 對那我們目前 收集意見對 目前大學 目前我們收集來的意見大學普遍是希望從十分之一能夠先提高到八分之一啦是 對"},{"start":427.734,"end":438.55,"text":"那至於要不要再往學生代表建議的說能夠到五分之一這個部分可能就是有需要教育部再跟大學從音效自己的角度來做你還要收集多久意見"},{"start":439.942,"end":463.848,"text":"目前是希望说在因为已经有14个委员的版本出来了那我们在1月22 23会在校长会议来让校长针对这个部分凝聚来做讨论那我们会把这个公布公式版本再来跟学生跟相关的教师团体跟关心的人士们一起做讨论希望在下个会议我还是要提醒市长"},{"start":466.309,"end":471.802,"text":"我們問教育部就一個很根本的問題提高比例是否等於實質參與你覺得呢"},{"start":475.254,"end":503.877,"text":"這個部分就是學校最關心的有這個不確定性所以學生自知不能只看席次而是要看到整個發揮的影響力如果學生代表無法充分取得校務相關的資訊在程序上人被動的參與那麼就算比例提高也只能是形式上所以教育部在制度上的一個設計該怎麼強化學生代表的資訊權還有讓學生在校會議真正有聲音有力量"},{"start":505.118,"end":524.254,"text":"次長 誠如我剛剛所說的整個大學法距離上一次的修正我覺得已經不符合期待了所以包含大學合併須經校務會議的同意維護師生的權益校長遴選的納入學生代表的一些相關權益我覺得這個部分都是回應大家的期待很多項目我知道要討論"},{"start":525.595,"end":553.956,"text":"学校也有给我们一些意见我必须坦白讲但是综合的部分在怎么样去凝聚更大的共识我希望教育部要有更大的力度可以吗好非常认同让同学能够有足够的资讯跟无障碍的去参加整个学校治理这是同学期待的也是我们要来跟大学沟通的地方昨天好谢谢你市长另外一个问题跟你请教昨天有周刊的一个封面"},{"start":555.801,"end":577.697,"text":"人口危机向世界抢财抢人才市长全球高度的竞争人才当然台湾也在这个竞争的行列但现实就是台湾自己培育的人被大量的国际市场挖走过去十几年台湾是一个人才净输出的国家不仅吸引不到其他的国家"},{"start":579.009,"end":589.322,"text":"頂尖的人才台灣自己培養的理工金融優秀人才大量的被歐美中國新加坡歐洲等國際"},{"start":591.646,"end":615.906,"text":"來處理掉被他們挖掘所以這是一個不爭的事實這不只是教育現場的問題更是經濟的問題國家經濟不正國內的工作環境不好我們這一次也遇到了很多學校跟我們反映我不講哪個學校但跟我們講僑生以及外國學生的一個招生的問題狀況的問題你知道目前有很多的困境嗎"},{"start":617.485,"end":643.582,"text":"對他們來說招生不易然後教育部並沒有幫忙而且給予了很多的限制你知道嗎我覺得可能學校有誤解這幾年我們透過跨部會的會議其實打通了很多僑外生來台跟留台的一些相關的措施我知道 有但是他跟我講這些措施不管是很繁雜甚至很多的問題需要更大力度的溝通讓它簡化所以"},{"start":644.002,"end":666.675,"text":"我要在這邊帶到的是細項我就不在這邊討論我們會後繼續來針對這個部分但是我要跟你講的是我知道你們有努力但是這個努力的進度我認為還可以有所進步所以很多學校跟我講僑生的部分希望能夠給予更多的幫助這個方向應該是我們要努力我希望我也來彙整一些意見到時候要跟你們來討論"},{"start":667.435,"end":694.538,"text":"市長你答應我可以我們來做深度的交流嗎對我們也期待如果真的學校在現場遇到什麼問題不管是教育部的或是其他部會需要解套的我們都願意來做溝通但是學校也要承擔起該負的責任當然不會把責任都丟給你們但是我希望是你們是做他的靠山而不是開了一個門卻有很多的阻力今天趙偉站起來了但我後面原本想問你不管招生還有現在流財"},{"start":695.879,"end":711.849,"text":"在台就读的科系相关的资料因为能够在这边读书在这边培育人才在这边就业是我们最终目的那这个部分我们也要有一些诱因我们会后再来讨论会后我们再跟委员做报告谢谢"}]}},{"id":"167005","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167005","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f543b9be19103774d65c324c55f2e48b25a91ff8743ff8a8cb9b5ffaa6d71c87aaa95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:56:10 - 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Tahovecahe等19人擬具「大學法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員范雲等16人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員林月琴等17人擬具「大學法第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「大學法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-08","start_time":"2026-01-08T11:56:10+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-08T12:08:23+08:00","duration":733,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":5.549093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.8697187500000005,"end":6.544718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.202843750000001,"end":7.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.442843750000002,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.62846875,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.03346875,"end":251.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.65409375000002,"end":263.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.68159375,"end":264.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.32284375,"end":273.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.54096875,"end":273.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.55784375,"end":273.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.62534375,"end":273.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.04721875,"end":277.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.27034375,"end":278.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.59909375,"end":284.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.66159375,"end":310.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.77159375,"end":321.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.07784375,"end":329.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.41534375000003,"end":321.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.32659375000003,"end":322.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.10596875000005,"end":347.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.50409375000004,"end":350.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.89596875,"end":404.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.18721875,"end":432.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.19534375,"end":441.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.63284375,"end":443.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.07971875000004,"end":454.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.52534375000005,"end":508.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.38596875,"end":514.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.22909375,"end":527.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.2522187500001,"end":540.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.20909375,"end":534.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.22909375,"end":567.4697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.05284375,"end":562.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.33971875,"end":562.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.6047187500001,"end":653.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.1397187499999,"end":655.4053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.99596875,"end":661.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.7165937500001,"end":672.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.88784375,"end":673.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.01846875,"end":693.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.2947187500001,"end":688.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.71159375,"end":695.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.0447187500001,"end":719.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.9922187500001,"end":707.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.07096875,"end":716.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.46721875,"end":718.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.8047187500001,"end":732.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.1797187500001,"end":722.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.7278437500001,"end":726.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.9253437500001,"end":731.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":733.06409375,"end":734.1440937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.364,"end":7.458,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長有請 朱次長"},{"start":10.678,"end":37.823,"text":"委員好 次長好這些年其實我們常常遇到一些高教的陳情案那以近期來講大家都知道的就是例如我也有受理高參大他們的校長遴選現假學歷的風暴所以一直難產中那像是台師大的女足抽血案甚至是台大涉姦性騷案也燒掉了我們的次長那您也很清楚"},{"start":38.303,"end":55.052,"text":"我也是这些年来都在帮忙马远遗骨返还案目前也是僵持在那边所以我们可以说我们面对高教这一块经常的碰壁这个壁就是大学法大学自主"},{"start":55.952,"end":76.852,"text":"那大家都一概的在谈说已经20年没有修环境都已经改变了大学的治理的架构也不同了那一个出生的孩子20年呢又已经变成大学生了所以呢我们也都有提出修法的版本那我个人呢像是第五条我就觉得教职员学生的权益保障"},{"start":77.592,"end":96.42,"text":"這一些他的救濟違法事項我們希望納入大學評鑑因為目前就沒有嘛就不怕嘛那像是第九條的話校長遴選委員會我個人就是覺得裡頭現在很多的法因為性別主流化都會提到性別的比例"},{"start":96.9,"end":113.295,"text":"但是不要忘記我們賴總統他從當市長開始就在推族群主流化但是我們族群主流化的概念還沒有普遍的深入到我們的法令當中所以我也希望在這個委員會裡面原住民身份的委員比例"},{"start":113.735,"end":140.752,"text":"也必須要被保障那又或者說學生的權利調查在第三十三條之三我也希望納入不同性別不同族群身心障礙者不利處境的一個學生經驗那我之所以會這麼說是因為我們這幾年大學校園真的歧視事件層出不窮啊像是台大最著名的火冒4.05帳就是在取消原住民學生"},{"start":141.332,"end":157.811,"text":"甚至是台大經濟系的學生會選舉你看大家都要關心僑生的聲音體育生的聲音可是他們的政見可以把原住民僑生體育生放進去希望能夠減少所以在這個當中就是即便"},{"start":158.271,"end":180.206,"text":"像東華大學有這麼高比例的原住民師生他都還是出現歧視事件說他們在烤肉在翻糕所以我覺得這個部分我剛剛提的那幾個法我要修的我希望能夠正式能夠納入那再來我就是要提到原住民的高教的問題我也質詢過非常多次這六年來那我為什麼要這樣子講"},{"start":185.35,"end":206.897,"text":"因為我們看到原住民學生的出債學率我每一次都提我們可以看他們在國小出債學率跟全體是沒有什麼差異國中也沒有什麼差異高中也沒有什麼差異可是到了大學是斷崖式的下降差距落到將近40%實際上是38%在113學年度這是一個要"},{"start":212.819,"end":236.881,"text":"等同我們從20年前一直在呼籲的原住民的平均餘命離全體國人是10歲這是世界的笑話所以我們要透過政策去補齊同樣的高教這個地方出債學歷這麼大的斷崖式落差非得要用政策來補齊所以我想先問一下因為我也關心很久了"},{"start":237.361,"end":263.63,"text":"就是自從我們賴總統去年1月上來我們私校的這個學雜費補助它有上升但是因為原住民沒有享受到所以呢它其實那個gap是越來越大的這個斷崖式的落差會不會越來越大所以我一直說原住民學生的學雜費減免的額度也要去做改變那不曉得這個部分進度如何"},{"start":264.738,"end":278.588,"text":"好 谢谢委员针对于原住民学杂费减免的额度提升委员确实有关心过很多次那那个没关系时间关系用书面报告也可以书面报告我想再一个"},{"start":279.642,"end":299.323,"text":"我回到委员刚刚提的数据确实是让人震惊的就是说一旦跳脱我们十二年国教之外到了大学这个gap这么的大所以这个部分确实经济因素是个考量那如果经济因素补足之后让同学进来他可以安心就学不要那么高的休退学的情况"},{"start":299.984,"end":326.47,"text":"我想这是第二个所以这个部分我们在原资中心的角色怎么去协助我们现在就是跟原民会还有跟考选部都在做一些讨论希望能够把它降格起来那次长我就接续你来说确实经济因素一定要补齐所以这个学杂费减免一定要检讨我希望你有检讨吧有好谢谢那接下来你讲到原专班原资中心这也是一个问题"},{"start":327.19,"end":346.883,"text":"我們現在的原專班等同一個大學的科系因為一個大學的科系也就是40到80人平均但是他有7名專任教師可是我們的原專班弄了一個要點他說到補助一名專任教師補助一名專任助理"},{"start":347.923,"end":361.333,"text":"這個部分這一名教師壓力很大而且合適的原專班老師數量也不足所以這個後頭都必須要有一些配套措施例如高教原住民師資人才的一個培育"},{"start":362.794,"end":382.879,"text":"我们再来看一下他有提到说学校聘专案教师者也要有一个转任专任教师的机制但是好可惜我们也接到很多的澄清他们不被学校接纳虽然你文字这样写他不被纳入正式的体系所以呢我们合理的就是认为大家讲的"},{"start":383.719,"end":403.5,"text":"現在的原專班對很多大學來講他只是為了要當作一個招生的工具然後呢面臨最後的停辦我們教育部 園民會也沒有總量管制讓很多的原專班本來很優秀的生存不下去再來提到原治中心我們原本希望原治中心好不容易"},{"start":404.481,"end":432.371,"text":"全國的大專院校都已經開設但是我們也在為他們爭取專任助理從沒有到有一直到現在每多一百人再增加一人我們也已經要求他們的薪水要比照國科會的標準但是你知道嗎依舊就算有一個研制中心他有七名的專任助理仍舊研制中心還是一位其他可能放在校長室不知道放在什麼地方"},{"start":433.471,"end":453.793,"text":"為什麼因為你們用要點要點雖然寫得很清楚不得一座他用專款專用不得挪用都有寫但是沒有人理會因為我剛剛講了銅牆鐵壁大學自主所以這個就凸顯這個入法的重要性再來提到原專班沒有規劃沒有上位思考"},{"start":454.814,"end":481.716,"text":"現在變成審核就開 審核就開但是我們看一下你看護理長照 社工設計都是刻板印象很多大學開設我們原本是依賴他們學校的強項科系來為我們做原住民高教人才培育但是我們發現都是落入刻板印象像園民會 我們有園民特考園民會建議的我們原住民自治人才培育"},{"start":482.116,"end":508.449,"text":"我們應該要有一個原住民自治的一個藍圖 尚未思考我們要電資的 環境的像現在有原住民族博物館博物館的人才 農業的人才 土木的人才法律的人才 地政的人才 零所以我在這邊只是要去特別提到說我希望原專班要扣合政策目標那怎麼辦 你看台清 交 城 政這些大學"},{"start":509.449,"end":527.394,"text":"沒有開過原專班教育部你們一點都不會去指導嗎因為他們不缺學生這就落實了會開的人只是把原專班當作是招生工具這是很悲哀的所以這個部分我特別希望說能夠有一個改革納入"},{"start":528.354,"end":546.672,"text":"已经新一期的115到119的原住民族的教育中长城计划要把这些改革纳进来像是结合原住民的特考考科去做制度性的调整用人的直系的引导我们需要什么样的人才原制中心的一个强化"},{"start":547.213,"end":567.028,"text":"还有一个就是很重要我觉得要有示范学校的一个推动可以去责定一些大学来去做一个示范然后补足原住民的专任师资我觉得教育部就是我希望你们可以赶快来做这件事因为我还是回到我刚刚讲的原住民高教这一块断层"},{"start":567.988,"end":583.539,"text":"这个断崖式的落差这个一定要用政策来引导那我希望教育部就是全面的盘点原专班的开设情形检讨经费课程职涯纳入学校的编制校内编制提出改善的做法"},{"start":583.979,"end":602.428,"text":"那大學法的體系內必須要有族群主流化的精神符合原教法的精神那希望可以納進去那原住民族的教育中長城計畫我也希望這一波可以納入原住民公務人才的一個培育那甚至是拔尖高教人才我是希望說"},{"start":603.308,"end":631.016,"text":"能够去跟一些大学合作做海外见习实习计划全额的奖学金然后就业的导向衔接到国外的研究所那刚好可以去嫁接我们这一次的这个青年基本法已经完成三读像是外交部它有一个先锋人才培育专案我希望我们教育部也可以主动去盘点结合那在这个部分我真的是希望说能够有像双联学位这些想法"},{"start":631.836,"end":655.147,"text":"假设我们的在学校大一大二他原专班他先跟大家一起读大三大四再回来或者是跟国外嫁接他可以大一大二在台大两年然后嫁接国外的夏威夷大学三四然后可以取得两个学校的一个学位那我想这个部分其实最终我都希望能够入法因为只有入法"},{"start":656.107,"end":673.284,"text":"學校才不會不當一回事是那不曉得次長您的意見如何謝謝委員委員剛剛提出來的幾個建議都非常的具體那我們除了會納入我們原住民中產層計畫裡面把它融入之外針對於原民"},{"start":674.105,"end":697.229,"text":"原民专班 原资中心包含刚刚委员提到的一些人员运用的一些缺失这我们都会来检视然后把它做个调整教育部不会没有办法啦如果学校真的滥用的话教育部该出手就会出手那有关于在原住民人宅的培育我们最近也尝试了跟原民会因为它会主要是针对业界跟部落嘛"},{"start":697.509,"end":715.034,"text":"那我们跟考选部针对公务能力那教育部这边我们要针对当然是我们高阶人才尤其是刚刚委员特别提到的我们要足够的师资那我们也去盘点了目前在哪一些学门领域原住民的教师是相对的比例比较低的这就是我们"},{"start":715.194,"end":732.46,"text":"未来优先希望能够大学肩负起来培育的哲理教育部 园民会考选部 全序部人事总处都能够一并的来做一个跨部会的进入到我们的中长生计划里面好不好谢谢市长 谢谢主席"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}