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來 我們交通委員會 今天NCC的這個衛星廣播電視法的這個協商 那因為兩個黨團到了 國民黨團跟民眾黨團都有代表出席 那民進黨團是不是請我們助理同仁聯繫一下好不好 因為表定是兩點鐘啦 我想說我們就是準時開始 那也感謝我們NCC代理主委跟我們主秘還有相關的部會官員都有出席"},{"start":1793.287,"end":1814.742,"text":"來 相關資料都有拿到了嘛OK 那我們我知道剛剛也看到這個代理主委有都個別在跟委員在做一些溝通我覺得這是好事那之前應該三個禮拜前我們主條審查的時候其實本期也就有特別提到說要請NCC有相關的一個對應跟備案出來那我們可以比較"},{"start":1815.723,"end":1839.175,"text":"聚焦的一個討論那如果說有相關的一個討論的話等一下就直接我們針對我們等一下還是一樣是有保留的條文我們主條來做一個討論那但是希望我們NCC這邊能夠有一些如果有備案的部分就可以直接提出備案好不好那委員這邊我們也就尊重大家的一個發言那等一下我們主條的時候再請各位委員表達意見"},{"start":1940.677,"end":1955.213,"text":"感謝嘉賓委員這個三分鐘如果超過五分鐘就要請喝咖啡了對 我就知道你叫零咖啡衝咖啡對 好"},{"start":1956.294,"end":1983.12,"text":"感謝那我們現在民進黨團的代表也已經到場那我們現在就開始協商那我剛剛也針對就是衛星廣播電視法部分條文修正草案之前有通過或修正通過部分我就不再贅述那我們現在針對保留共12條條文我們再來做這個進一步的協商那我是不是就徵求大家意見我們就逐條來做討論好不好好那沒有問題的話我們就先看第4條"},{"start":1985.27,"end":2009.947,"text":"還要再介紹對不起 因為工作同仁還是說尊重各位委員所以現在介紹在場委員首先介紹我們羅志強委員廖先祥委員張祺凱委員以及鍾嘉賓委員今天列席官員主要是我們NCC代理主委陳崇樹主委"},{"start":2010.956,"end":2019.973,"text":"主任秘書黃文哲秘書黃文哲主秘 抱歉林慧玲我們電台與內容事務處處長以及蔡志如法務事務處處長"},{"start":2022.406,"end":2039.8,"text":"包括司法院我們林靜超法官 謝謝經濟部我們商業發展司嚴和慶科長內政部民政司專門委員戴淑黃專門委員經管會政企局陳湘瑩副組長"},{"start":2041.481,"end":2066.59,"text":"勞動部勞動基金運用局專門委員吳英傑專委主計處公務預算處專門委員黃子涵還有法務部楊石宇檢察官好謝謝好那我們是不是就針對第4條的部分我們請NCC主管機關都先來做個回應你們的意見好不好謝謝來"},{"start":2070.503,"end":2098.522,"text":"跟主席跟各位人報告第4條的部分我們具體建議都是因為民眾黨團有在12條之一有徵提我們是建議說這邊就建議不修然後用12條之一來處理用資訊介入的目的來達到這個資訊公開因為股票公開發行有相對的一些如果是比照有廣法或它是有它規模是比較不一樣它是資本有2億以上的"},{"start":2100.223,"end":2124.947,"text":"很多都是基本上沒有那麼高的部分就是說就是原來的條例裡頭會有一些法人也會適用這個他不需要應該相對上不需要負擔這個東西我們會建議說這一部分就不要修但是用十二條之一來處理那你們十二條之一是可以接受民眾黨團的文字"},{"start":2127.08,"end":2154.271,"text":"有部分來修正12條之一原來是所有新聞頻道跟直播我們會建議這邊是把範圍只限縮在經營新聞及財經新聞頻道那直播的部分不要為什麼直播不要因為直播的話大愛台那個宗教台TV也會被包進來我們建議說那部分把它拿掉就可以"},{"start":2156.02,"end":2178.255,"text":"好來 那民眾黨團要不要先 剛剛NCC的講法就是說第四條不建議修正那就是維持原有的條文但是在十二條之一民眾黨團新增提案裡面然後來讓他新增 那其中自播新聞頻道 自播新聞節目之頻道之"},{"start":2179.356,"end":2190.461,"text":"衛星廣播電視事業這邊不要是不是對 就是自播新聞節目之頻道這幾個字殺掉所以是線說的範圍是經營新聞及財經頻道之衛星廣播電視事業跟主席報告是經營新聞及財經新聞頻道還加個新聞兩個字"},{"start":2207.875,"end":2222.604,"text":"經營新聞及財經新聞頻道好我想因為這兩條是連動的我就請董事我就直接這樣子來做處理第四條跟第十二之一那十二之一在第九頁對那就麻煩我們各委員來表達意見來 首先請張啟開委員"},{"start":2224.949,"end":2246.999,"text":"先謝謝孟凱今天這個衛星廣播電視法這個修正案排上來非常重要這是柯文哲在兩年多前敬請總統的重要政見我在第一會期就是快兩年前一上任就代表台灣民眾黨提了這個案子那沒有錯 重中之重事實上就是剛剛卓偉提的那個條文第十二條之一他主要是要讓"},{"start":2248.64,"end":2269.069,"text":"要讓從政府得到的採購案或者是補助還有廣告公開透明化從主委剛剛的回答大家也看得出來這大概是台灣人民的共識啦我不要說政府拿我們人民納稅錢然後很集中的在某些電視台然後後來這個電視台又常常在罵別人那也不好我們就回到正規讓他可以公開透明化"},{"start":2269.289,"end":2297.102,"text":"所以我們條文是這樣規範的我們是要求說每一年的6月30號以前要將前一年度的資訊就等一下講這個資訊要公開在兩個地方一個就是NCC你來指定一個網站第二個就是這個電視台或者廣播它本身它自己的網站上要披露每年的6月30號那包括哪一些呢你說從政府或者從公立學校或公營事業或者其他"},{"start":2298.002,"end":2315.92,"text":"這些監訴成立的財產法人他只要是採購案還有剛講的補助金額你本身在做一個披露現在看起來這一塊是有共識的那另外我要提醒一個點我們在第12條之一的第7款我們還補了一個中加條款"},{"start":2316.801,"end":2331.673,"text":"宗家條款當然就是當初電視台不能夠去經營這個第四台結果那時候出現了有某個電視台去經營了入主的這個宗家所以我們大概第七款的要求就是說你只要是有持股10%以上的股東"},{"start":2333.235,"end":2349.287,"text":"你說那個電視台他經過層層去掌握就弄到後來他說法規我們在問這個以前的主委的時候那時候的NC主委就說那個比例太低了所以就沒辦法規範那第七款我們是很明確的所以我們今天會非常第"},{"start":2351.867,"end":2377.083,"text":"你們後來是第八 第八款負責人 董事監察人 經紀人跟直接間接持有已經發行表決權總數的10%的股東的投資試驗那你就必須要公開披露這個條文我都非常堅持那OK大概就是依照民眾黨的版本這樣的規範的話12條之一我們可以同意那至於剛才提到那個製波要不要拿掉"},{"start":2378.905,"end":2405.028,"text":"我們的明確定義是希望說新聞跟財經頻道嘛那現在主委是提到說自播自播不要 自播你說會是會讓大愛台跟那個GoodTV那個宗教台都會被含納私用那如果是原來前面兩項的話只有新聞台跟財經新聞台會好 這樣好不好大家如果可以同意第12條之一用台灣民眾黨的這個版本那在這個那個自播這一塊我們可以做個修正 好不好"},{"start":2405.649,"end":2424.268,"text":"可是前提就是要用台灣民眾黨的第12條之一好不好 OK來 其他委員有相關意見嗎這是NCC提出來的現在看起來是NCC提出來台灣民眾黨同意對不對好"},{"start":2431.738,"end":2459.232,"text":"主席 我再請那個民眾黨是不是可以再次幫我們確定因為剛剛他們的建議是說不要有4然後只有12之1那這個部分對 4不要動不要民眾黨團修正的版本就是直接採納你們的12之1就可以含跨你們在第4條修法版本裡面所在意的事情那如果這個部分張綺凱委員可以接受那主管機關也覺得OK我們應該也沒有問題好 所以再次確定一下請張綺凱委員確定"},{"start":2461.121,"end":2465.968,"text":"對啦我這邊是這樣沒錯了那現在是國民黨國民黨是有意見嗎沒有意見"},{"start":2469.994,"end":2495.807,"text":"好看起來很有共識那來我最後主席確認一下就是說所以經營新聞及財經新聞頻道目前韓國的定義譬如說就是電視台裡面49到55這個新聞台到57到57對不對但是你撇開所謂的直播新聞節目所以說像圓明台 大愛台這個雖然他們台裡面有新聞但是不受這樣的一個規範"},{"start":2497.414,"end":2524.368,"text":"刪掉之後他就不會適用這一條好所以如果說比較明確以我們現在的這個收視的習慣的話這一條其實主要是49到57頻道對大概是這樣子沒錯然後也跟主席報告這個12條之前面的那兩個類像在上次通過的條文的第二條裡頭的定義第八款已經定義了對 就上一次我們有把那個新聞及財經新聞頻道給定義對不對"},{"start":2530.384,"end":2551.025,"text":"好所以各位在場委員我們現在就是第四條維持現行條文不予修正那十二條之一就依照臺灣民眾黨黨團的提案修正後通過就刪除直播新聞節目之頻道那幾個字 財經後面加新聞 財經後面加新聞"},{"start":2555.718,"end":2559.782,"text":"條文我簡單再念一遍 12條之一 經營新聞及財經新聞頻道之衛星廣播電視事業有沒有問題好"},{"start":2572.473,"end":2600.947,"text":"為了培育委員我們多念幾次沒有關係十二條之一經營新聞及財經新聞頻道之衛星廣播電視事業逗號因依主管機關指定之方式後面就照臺灣民眾黨黨團版本自播那個拿掉而已 對好所以十九到五十七都有規範OK好 那這樣子就十二條之一"},{"start":2602.148,"end":2615.974,"text":"提案就照臺灣民眾黨黨團版本修正後通過好 接下來請大家再回到第二頁的第5條來 我們是不是也請NCC這邊先來相關意見"},{"start":2619.016,"end":2639.605,"text":"是跟主席跟各位委員報告第5條這邊我們會具體建議是說直接還是不行然後間接的話我們是建議因為上次交委會討論的時候有相關委員也有建議那主席又才是我們回去就我們現在的監理實務來做一些檢視盤點那我們具體建議間接是1%"},{"start":2643.707,"end":2663.981,"text":"但是要搭配但書規定但書規定大概就是陳學生委員他有提案然後再搭配50條的罰則部分來處理那因為文字很多那是不是允許我們把我們建議的文對是NCC有提建議版本那我們直接這個版本給我們在場委員好不好好謝謝好"},{"start":2671.547,"end":2699.667,"text":"好我們請各委員也來過目就說這是上一次我們在審查初挑審查的時候要求NCC在協商的時候要提出相關的這個客觀的一個分析跟專業的一個判斷那現在加入這個部分所以第一政黨還是把它拿掉不是 政黨還是有"},{"start":2701.482,"end":2727.779,"text":"政黨在第二頁政黨的第三項第三項這邊那我跟各位報告簡單來講是這樣子就是第一頁這邊的第一項第五條第一項是政府跟他的法人不得下面有三款第一款是直接是絕對不行第二款是說擔任未管事業的董監事啊發起人啊或經理人那第三款是說如果政府是間接投資或者其他方式來控制未管事業的人事財務"},{"start":2729.478,"end":2749.85,"text":"獲得業務的話這些都對應後面第50條會有一些法則規定那第二項是補充說明上面政府的情況什麼情況才會視為這個政府控制未管事業第二項的第一款是說政府獲得政府他設的法人其實就是那個幾大基金他的"},{"start":2750.971,"end":2769.751,"text":"只有未管事業持股如果超過1%的話這部分是勢為控制後面再要但出這個但出其實就是陳雪仙委員當初的提案裡頭有寫的就是說但政府基金或公營事業因自行委託投信機構投資的部分不在此限"},{"start":2771.865,"end":2787.68,"text":"白化是這樣子然後第二款是說政府或他的法人就是兩個在一起就是說所有白化套個具體的例子說政府他的基金所有基金加起來他的如果超過1%的話這些東西也"},{"start":2790.382,"end":2813.256,"text":"我们也是认为说这种情况之下不得处理但是也是把政府基金把它排掉第二页第三款的公营事业担任微管事业的经理人董监事的话这边也是属于说我们政府不能处理的部分然后第二页的"},{"start":2814.497,"end":2836.468,"text":"第三項 應該是從上面12345678下面20項那邊開始 政黨這邊政黨這邊相對的更嚴格 比政府更嚴格怎麼更嚴格法 第一管是說直接不行 間接也不行但是政府的話是間接 我們有畫一條紅線政黨的話是間接也不行 我們建議條文是這樣子然後第三管跟政府的一樣"},{"start":2838.05,"end":2847.627,"text":"第四管是把一些其他的控制方式我們也列為說這種情況之下是政黨不得從事的行為然後第四管是第二頁的倒數"},{"start":2849.622,"end":2873.999,"text":"第九行的開始 除法律令有規定外政府政黨不得捐助然後第五管事這邊 第二頁倒數第五行這邊政黨的黨務工作人員或政務人員或選任公職人員不得投資衛廣事業然後他的配偶跟二親等以內的血親合計的持股不得超過1%"},{"start":2877.25,"end":2896.007,"text":"然後第三頁是第六項是政黨的工作人員或選任公職人員他不得擔任未管事業的董監事或經理人等一下 主委 代理主委我們只有拿到一二頁就一張您"},{"start":2899.548,"end":2918.84,"text":"還是我們是不是針對因為現在委員手上版本都是一張的這個您是不是用這個一張的來說明好不好那剛剛講的除了第幾頁是不用理會之外其他講的像是都一樣都一樣"},{"start":2927.506,"end":2952.324,"text":"好那是不是我再講一遍好了第一頁這邊的第五條的第一項就是政府的部分是規範政府的部分政府的部分有下面三款是不得從事的行為第一個直接投資是絕對禁止第二個擔任衛廣事業的董監事跟後經理人絕對禁止第三個是間接投資間接投資的這種情況"},{"start":2953.547,"end":2970.592,"text":"那第二項是有這種情況我們視為前面第一項的第三款的視為控制哪些情況呢第一個是政府就第一款政府或者他的法人其實就是一些基金他如果個別"},{"start":2973.773,"end":2984.259,"text":"或其法人個別自個別就是個別加起來超過1%的話我們是會控制然後把四大基金排除就但書這邊就是第一款的後段這邊"},{"start":2985.737,"end":3010.521,"text":"但政府基金或公營事業因自行委託巴拉巴拉這邊不在此限這個是陳秀卿委員的提案的版本我們去把它做一些對應的作修他的紅線是劃10% 我們是劃1%1%是尊氏主席的指示文把我們手上歷年來有違反黨政條款的拿出來對 也要找相關的事業來開會check然後"},{"start":3014.852,"end":3021.292,"text":"第二项的第二款是针对这个政府或者捐助法人及他的"},{"start":3023.257,"end":3047.912,"text":"共同持有的就是前面那一款是每一個個別然後第二款是合計超過1%我們也是認為是有控制的但是也把基金排掉所以二的後段這邊但政府就跟前面一款一樣都是把政府基金跟一些供應事業的就像郵政基金或者勞退那些東西都把它排掉"},{"start":3048.913,"end":3058.848,"text":"然後第三款的部分是公營事業第三款是公營事業擔任未管事業的董監事、經理人這些也是視為控制"},{"start":3061.072,"end":3080.437,"text":"然後第三項就是我們第一頁的12345倒數第五行開始的第三項這邊是講政黨政黨部分是比政府更嚴格政府的部分間接有劃紅線排掉基金政黨是直接間接都不行然後所以就體現在我們這邊翻過來的"},{"start":3082.438,"end":3097.169,"text":"翻過來的沒有翻過來還是第一頁第一頁的第三項的倒數第四項倒數第三項直接間接政黨都不行然後第三管是擔任衛管事業的董監事監理人也不行"},{"start":3098.03,"end":3122.476,"text":"然後第四是他有其他方式以其他方式來控制未廣事業的人事財務會計也不行這種情況那不行的話後面第五十條我們有一些對應的一些法則的一些規範好那請翻到第二頁第五條的第四項第一個是第四項這邊是說"},{"start":3124.594,"end":3141.201,"text":"政府 政黨都不能捐助未廣事業第五項是講人的部分人的部分包括政黨的人員 政務人員選任公職人員跟他的配偶 二親等裡面的血親都不能投資同一家電子事業超過1%這是既有的條文"},{"start":3144.925,"end":3172.579,"text":"然後這個條文大概也是跟陳雪田委員的應該是以他的為主他只是當初有一些物質應該是衛星廣播電視事業而不是系統經營者系統經營是在有線電視那邊然後第六項這邊第六項這邊是規範政黨的人員跟選任也是規範人政黨人員跟選任公司人員不得擔任衛廣事業的總監事跟經理人"},{"start":3173.579,"end":3202.632,"text":"然後第七項是定義一下前面所爭政黨的工作人員是指下面有兩款的情況是做一些定義然後第八項第八項這邊是講說第八項這邊是因為全球性維園部分我們有一些修正的一些建議這邊不太一樣"},{"start":3204.777,"end":3230.999,"text":"再來是第九項這邊違反它對應的法則部分我們這邊會有這個建議就說要主管機關就NCC這邊會令餵管業者做下面的事情人的部分我們是叫餵管業者要解除他懂監視的一些職務政府的部分我們解除政府政黨或者捐助法人受到對餵管事業的一些控制"},{"start":3234.42,"end":3241.596,"text":"那以上先好 簡單補充 好來那個初期委員有沒有針對NCC提出來第5條來"},{"start":3244.062,"end":3264.031,"text":"這邊我想請教主委你們這次為什麼要搞那麼麻煩你本來就是政府政黨積極捐助的財團法人受託人不得違下列行為你們現在把政府跟政黨把它切開來拆成兩項這有什麼意義嗎就是政黨規範更嚴格你們政黨有規範更嚴格嗎我看不得違下列行為不是一樣的嗎"},{"start":3265.111,"end":3291.645,"text":"跟委員報告我們是依照陳雪生委員的版本去修正的那陳雪生委員的版本也是把政黨拆到第三項來我們就政府跟政黨去分別規範那政黨是直接間接都絕對禁止那只有開放政府在間接投資的部分可以1%然後用但書去排除政府基金跟國營事業的一些投資行為"},{"start":3297.737,"end":3323.739,"text":"主席我先發言可以嗎好謝謝主席我剛看了一下確實這個長長落落等的兩頁條文幾乎都是基建立在陳學生委員的版本他的版本裡面確實是把政黨黨務工作人員局選任公職人員就是政黨還有政務工作人員這些事情都放進來但是我現在看到主管機關給這個修正動議的版本是分得更清楚"},{"start":3324.139,"end":3338.626,"text":"也就是說日後相關執法人員或者是你們在定相關細則的時候確實會把政黨還有政府的角色講得更清楚到底他們各自的紅線是什麼看起來其實是優化了陳雪生委員的版本"},{"start":3339.506,"end":3354.393,"text":"如果在一黨委員可以接受那我想這一條民進黨黨團也沒有意見因為看起來主管機關已經覺得各自畫的紅線而且是定義更清楚也也就是說在一黨委員非常在意的那個政黨跟政府跟媒體之間的紅線關係謝謝好來翁小玲委員"},{"start":3362.233,"end":3373.287,"text":"另外就是有个问题因为原来的规定是说他间接投资10%你们现在限缩到1%在过去的这个实务案例里面你们处罚的最高的间接投资是有百分之多少"},{"start":3374.564,"end":3392.1,"text":"根文报告我们的对应有限那边有很多是把各种基金加起来是有超过5%的但是如果单数把它排除掉的话它个别的部分间接的都低于1%就是某个个案是某个地方政府的投资那一块是低于1%"},{"start":3393.161,"end":3417.236,"text":"所以我们划1%这边是OK的然后上次教委会讨论的时候也有委员提说很多那种公司没有很大的1%以下或持股比例很高的都当董事长所以他们觉得划1%那边是相对既符合现行我们建立的历来处分的党政军违反的案件也符合目前的一些需要因为我记得德国好像3%嘛"},{"start":3419.612,"end":3445.357,"text":"也跟我们报告我的意思就是说你们现在规定1%最后呢也还是绑手绑脚然后接下来就翻过来就是你们这里讲说未来违反前面的规定是由主管机关可以命其限其处分那你这里主管机关未来是怎么解释是目的事业主管机关吗就是NCC"},{"start":3446.428,"end":3475.633,"text":"就还是有NCC可是你们有办法可以命他们这个去做处犯吗有就是我们那50条我们建议是我们也规范说政府投资或政党投资我们都有对应法则然后如果是在那部分刚刚讲政务人员政党人员这些持有部分要请微广业者解除他的股东身份股东权利如果微广事业不从的话我们就罚微广事业"},{"start":3478.244,"end":3499.679,"text":"所以從講裡面不好意思我沒聽到你說的就是政府或政府的法人如果他有違反直接或讓他去讓他擔任這個未管業者的一些總監事或經理人或政黨人員也是一樣他有直接或擔任總監事的部分我們獲得違反他捐助未管事業那這些東西我們都會罰20萬到200萬這個罰還然後先罰政黨罰投資的人"},{"start":3510.084,"end":3516.168,"text":"罰他然後再令他陷阱改正那完整條文是這樣子你們是罰對你們再講清楚你是說你們NCC可以去罰投資人翁小蓮委員的問題是對要罰的是到時候會不會罰到電視台就別人投資然後反而罰電視台"},{"start":3533.892,"end":3548.949,"text":"這也是過去我們的樣態嘛你不小心有人電視台他可能是公開上市然後就別人來買了他不能這個反而變成是電視台受罰經濟部或者是金網會他們有這個權利啊他們是直接去主管這些相關的這個"},{"start":3553.834,"end":3581.013,"text":"相關的投資補充報告如果屬於那種間接投資的我們的罰則是設計成兩種政府直接的或怎麼樣我們就罰政府如果是政府直接的它超過1%或怎麼樣的我們是先另改正再不改正才罰就是兩種嚴格是先罰再另改正相對另外一種是說我先叫他改正他不改正我們才開始罰"},{"start":3581.813,"end":3595.599,"text":"然後這都是對投資人對被投資的未廣業者如果未廣業者沒有依照前面那幾款說你不要給他擔任不能讓他享有股東權你不能有息子表屆權你還讓他息子表屆權你還讓他息子股東身份的話我們會發未廣業者"},{"start":3599.107,"end":3623.946,"text":"好主席我確認一下我們來釐清一下意思就是說不知情者假設蔚廣電視他是不知道狀況就是剛翁小林委員擔心的他是被投資然後他不知道但是你們知道你們主管機關就要處罰那個投資人對嗎那可是如果蔚廣電視知道了而且讓他行使所謂的股東的權益啊表決權這些那就是蔚廣電視系統會被開罰對不對各位報告投資人"},{"start":3627.589,"end":3636.913,"text":"投資人假設他是買基金我們不會罰這個投資人是罰這個基金總之就是出錢那個人就是各自都有開罰狀態這樣這樣主席我協助你釐清"},{"start":3641.468,"end":3668.11,"text":"好沒關係 那個我想這一條第五條要跟第五十條搭配看因為第五十條是那個強調第五條的一個違反的法則在這邊好 培育委員不用急好不好我再主持 謝謝所以我們現在在那個在跳到五十條前我先確定一下你剛剛有一個地方沒有講清楚在就是說你修正的這個政黨的部分"},{"start":3669.215,"end":3694.786,"text":"你現在寫法是 政黨黨務工作人員 政務人員跟選任公職人員不得投資 本人不得投資 但他的配偶二等親或直系姻親可以投資 可是以一趴為限一趴為限 是現有的規定對 現有規定嘛 但我現在說 你現在等於是政務人員跟選任公職人員不得投資 但他配偶跟二等親可以投資"},{"start":3696.721,"end":3725.255,"text":"但是有有紅線 對然後單一趴為限可是合計起來一趴以內所以是配偶直系血清或是二等清都一趴為限配偶跟他的二清等以內對 合計加起來嘛 對好 那但是現在我們的這個如果說以政務人員或是選任公職人員來講的話他的陽光法案就是說受監察院申報應該是只有配偶跟二等清的血清有申報那直系陰清沒有申報"},{"start":3726.584,"end":3739.44,"text":"那你這樣子要怎麼樣去掌握用竊竊還是用什麼方式請他們竊竊給我們他們是符合這個法律規定你說請誰竊竊"},{"start":3745.692,"end":3745.912,"text":"OK"},{"start":3763.47,"end":3788.679,"text":"但因為以往的樣態比較常的是譬如說政務人員或是選任公職人員在報監察院的時候他財產申報看到他有那個股票那連現行是一張都不行所以就被挑出來可是如果說你現在放寬之後就變成是說配偶或是二等親內的血親財產申報18歲以下的孩童他是有申報的但他超過18歲之後他其實也沒有申報"},{"start":3789.679,"end":3814.846,"text":"那本席只是提出來是說如果說這樣放話會不會未來你要掌握的狀況比較不容易跟主席報告那我們變成是被動式的來做一個稽查對 政黨人員本人他個人他本人是不能絕對不行他的配偶跟二青團是合起來一趴那個是不行那個是對應這個現行那是現行條文就已經規定了"},{"start":3816.363,"end":3840.985,"text":"就是黨務人員 政務人員 選任公職人員他本人是不可以投資是啦 這我理解就我現在是是我的問題在問你說如果說未來因為你現在只有一趴的一個門檻那這樣子你要怎麼樣有辦法去掌握或者說怎麼樣能夠剔除這個就是技術層面的問題我說未來執法上的問題"},{"start":3844.146,"end":3863.458,"text":"根據報告因為是現行條文我們食物操作歷年來大概也會請他們相對切捷好來那這樣子我們先第5條這邊大家有看了這個NCC提出的條文那也是依照我們上一次的這個結論來提出這個%的部分就是說不要"},{"start":3864.485,"end":3879.325,"text":"被動的只要持股一張甚至一股都會變成是受罰我們還是強調第五條黨政軍退出媒體這個核心概念沒有變黨政軍退出媒體這個核心概念沒有變那只是實務上場如果說有任何人拿一股"},{"start":3879.705,"end":3900.865,"text":"甚至一張股票那他就變成是說違反了這一條規定所以我們現在是講說以現行的樣態裡面1%以內都還算不會實質影響整個公司的運作沒有這樣的一個影響力而且這可能實務上來講會比較常見的也因此NCC今天提出來就是以1%為比例但是只放寬政府跟"},{"start":3901.886,"end":3923.231,"text":"捐助成立的財團法人而政黨的部分以及政務人員跟選任公職人員都還是維持不得投資OK那如果說有這樣的一個狀況的話就是第50條來去做相關的處罰那我們現在要看第50條在我們的第21頁"},{"start":3935.398,"end":3957.546,"text":"可是第21頁NCC是不是也有那個修正的版本有 剛剛發下去那是不是各委員都有收到NCC提出來的第50條的修正版本好 那我請各委員看一下第50條就NCC的修正版本那其中"},{"start":3958.925,"end":3980.275,"text":"主要看來就是違反的話處新台幣20萬元以上200萬元以下罰還 那令限期改善那如果說沒有改善的話則按次處罰對不對 對主要你的那個罰還的一個金額是20萬以上200萬以下限期改善 如果說沒有改善就按次處罰"},{"start":3981.243,"end":4008.218,"text":"就第一項是先罰錢並令限期改正然後第二項在隔壁那邊是先令改正不改正才罰那它情況是稍微有點不一樣的那第二項這邊是它有間接投資或其他方式控制的這種情況那前面第一項這邊是直接投資然後還擔任經理總監事的那個都先罰都比較嚴重先罰然後再令限期改正"},{"start":4014.619,"end":4038.155,"text":"好 我們各位有沒有相關意見對 基本上就是處罰這個行為人處罰行為人沒有處罰這個被投資者那如果說除非被投資者沒有遵守NCC相關規定對 就是我們那第五項第五項那邊 就是說"},{"start":4039.209,"end":4067.86,"text":"他間接投資你超過那個帕克數你還給他擔任股東還讓他行使股東權利還給他有表決權我就罰你然後也令你限期改正好我對於其中一個第50條有個疑義是按次處罰的次怎麼認定我們法務處解釋一下就是我們會看他給一個合理的改正期間那改正期間合理是多久呢那就看狀況"},{"start":4070.47,"end":4079.422,"text":"我們確定他的投資情形是什麼樣然後每一個個案他投資的金額大小我們可能會根據個案去做一個判斷"},{"start":4087.688,"end":4104.771,"text":"每個個案上他的股票他要把它處分掉的難易度不一樣那我們到時候做成處分的時候會限期假設某個個案是限期一個月某個個案是限期半年那這個期間到他還沒賣掉就是罰第二次就是按次是這個概念"},{"start":4105.051,"end":4130.644,"text":"但是主委我會認為說這樣子太過於寬鬆兩個部分因為我們現在不是以前沒有黨政軍退出媒體而現在才要退出媒體所以讓它有個緩衝期我們現在是雖然說稍微放寬但是實際上黨政軍退出媒體的核心是很不變所以基本上你是政府機關你是財團法人你是政黨的相關人員你本來就知道你不能去投資"},{"start":4131.604,"end":4157.045,"text":"你不會有誤入我們現在其實1%只是說有這種誤入的狀況可是如果說你今天被查到是我一次擁有大量我擁有10%擁有20%那你就是蓄意要去把手伸進這些這個衛星廣播那你還跟我講說按次改善那如果按次改善你半年才發一次半年才發一次那他就把它變成是繳罰單來"},{"start":4158.922,"end":4178.609,"text":"花錢消災跟主席報告我們在第一項裡頭如果覺得縣級改正縣級覺得說沒有明確化會是相對寬鬆的話那主席這邊或者委員這邊也可以討論縣級你可以都直接寫約定一個月或幾個月完成"},{"start":4181.926,"end":4200.209,"text":"然後如果他很嚴重的話發完額度我們當然是用一開始看他情況很嚴重的20萬到200萬也許第一次很嚴重的第一次就到頂了就200萬然後現時可能假設今天假設通過的三足版本是一個月他一個月內一定要完成不完成就發第二次好 來 祖密"},{"start":4202.686,"end":4231.19,"text":"因為現在案次其實是立法例大概都有那案次的話其實也是依照不同的情況那個給予合理的期間那主席剛才在擔心的是說會不會過於寬鬆或怎麼樣其實因為這種事情大概大概都是會全國矚目所以應該不至於有主管機關會恣意的給他一個比較相對過於寬鬆的這樣子所以我覺得應該應該還是要給主管機關一個一個一個採量的空間OK 按照事情而給予不同好"},{"start":4232.675,"end":4261.735,"text":"來 那我請在場委員幫他看一下那這樣子第5條跟第50條他是連帶 連動的那如果說針對第5條跟第50條就依我們協商條文通過就是NCC間所在提出來的修正動議條文我們依照這邊通過 有沒有問題好 第5條依協商條文通過第50條也依協商條文通過好"},{"start":4262.785,"end":4277.962,"text":"接下來再請大家看第七頁的第十條第十條來NCC"},{"start":4281.516,"end":4300.488,"text":"第4條是 孟委員有提深設衛廣執照的深設審理期限要三個月完成 三個月沒有完可以再延一次就3加3我們會建議說維持現行現行是6加6 為什麼 因為"},{"start":4303.99,"end":4324.15,"text":"因為有些常常叫業者補件這些資料如果說光是補件審查還有一些出審的時間就會那個如果是3加3就會比較比較很容易就超過這個那如果定成3加3那到時候通常恐怕是被迫要撥回申請會反而造成業者困擾"},{"start":4326.537,"end":4351.976,"text":"當然如果因為上次也有跟文貴委員有初步溝通就是說如果就是說新聞及財經新聞頻道之外他其他的頻道的相對單純那一部分也許可以使用但是新聞及財經新聞頻道應該要除外這樣來處理好來提案委員有沒有建議來羅志強委員"},{"start":4354.724,"end":4381.363,"text":"我觉得那个看NCC可不可以考虑就是说那个我们温委员这个版本里面它中间有那个第一项第三款第四款的文字修正这个部分你们没有意见吧前面的没有特别意见好 那我们就只有这个文字修正保存那你们刚刚讲的这部分我们就维持现状好了可以吗可以"},{"start":4382.182,"end":4400.478,"text":"好那這樣子就第十條我問你念一下就是說你在第三款等於是公共秩序或善良風俗有明顯重大不利影響就是加入明顯重大四個字那以及第四款申請人之財務技術"},{"start":4402.645,"end":4418.309,"text":"及執行能力名逗號明顯不足以實現其營運計畫所以就加入財務技術跟明顯不足這兩個 那後面3加3的部分就不予修正"},{"start":4420.046,"end":4442.41,"text":"翁委員可以支持 翁委員可以接受那我想請教民進黨團可以接受嗎好OK那這樣子NCC這邊也可以接受好那我們就依第10條依翁曉琳委員提案修正後通過好那再來第11頁的第17條"},{"start":4452.25,"end":4471.323,"text":"第十七條有國民黨團這邊有修正動議來 那是不是大家有收到來 我們工作同仁請發一下第十七條的修正動議有嗎好 那是不是請NCC這邊也來"},{"start":4473.651,"end":4498.734,"text":"回應一下針對今天最新的修正動員裡頭有講像第三項的要有輔導改善這一部分我們是建議這邊可以不用修因為實務上這麼多年來因為評鑑相當於期中考過往歷史從來沒有發生評鑑不合格然後我們又叫他退學的這種情況從來沒有發生我們建議說"},{"start":4500.316,"end":4510.295,"text":"對輔導改善是相對比實務上比較不會發生的可能我們建議輔導改善這個不用再修不用修維持原來就可以"},{"start":4512.445,"end":4539.887,"text":"另外第5項這邊快速通關的哪些情況可以免以評鑑這一塊然後是每5年檢討之快速通關也跟委員報告我們現行其實現行的執法也已經有快速通關已經在處理的林氏動議這邊是說哪些可以快速通關授權MCE的執法來處理其實現在我們已經有所以這部分我們是贊同"},{"start":4542.35,"end":4570.492,"text":"另外第四項這邊說什麼情況就要視為評鑑合格這邊我們會初步認為說這邊我們過往的一些評鑑會有一些對應的一些評鑑要看的一些項目如果這種情況之下其實它跟免疫評鑑快速通關其實是相對有部分是重疊或怎麼樣"},{"start":4571.573,"end":4594.611,"text":"我們基本上也尊重三年改五年你們可以接受因為現在已經改成那個九年執照嘛這個我們OK好所以第一個三年改五年可以接受那第二是三年內處分未達三次及累積金額未達八十萬以上免於評鑑這一塊我們認為說因為這個"},{"start":4600.523,"end":4627.675,"text":"本來我們是有人說這個幣值等等之類的假如這步伐要用到很久很久我們是建議說在執法處理就好這邊可以不用加了因為我們現在其實本來就已經訂有快速通關機制了我覺得應該是按照各式各樣的頻道的不同授權在辦法裡面去訂它就好但是可以提醒一下就是說我們要有快速通關機制倒是真的因為反正我們也做了"},{"start":4628.789,"end":4657.768,"text":"那具體來講說第二項的修正其實在第五項授權NCC訂執法裡頭期待執法裡頭就可以處理啦所以第二項其實可以不用訂啦那如果要訂我們也尊重能不能現在因為這個修正動議現在提出來我們後面還有差不多五條條文能不能修正動議這邊NCC如果可以接受的部分能夠再提出版本那讓委員這邊因為羅志強委員主要跟翁小林委員主要是提案人"},{"start":4659.312,"end":4686.25,"text":"如果說他們能夠確認因為你現在講說哪些要訂哪些不訂其實這樣子有點模糊而且你沒有辦法我也認同如果說你不要在募發裡面寫得清楚你執法裡面或者是說相關的這個細則裡面你把它給規範那但是你要怎麼樣把這個立法精神給放進去能不能現在我們最後再回來那現在可能NCC這邊有條文可以修正然後再給委員來做一個確認這樣好不好來請羅志祥委員"},{"start":4688.505,"end":4702.595,"text":"因为我们上次协商那我觉得我也有稍微掺着NCC的意见我做了一点修正因为我看到我们新修再修正的版本那诉讼的那一块我把它拿掉了所以其实也是有回应你们的一部分的意见"},{"start":4703.436,"end":4719.568,"text":"但是基本上您刚讲的问题我觉得基本上问题也不大其实差别也不大第一个就是说辅导改先辅导改正那如果你们觉得说没有这个必要的话那主管机关另期限期改正没有写辅导改正也可以"},{"start":4720.529,"end":4735.179,"text":"因为要不要辅导改正我觉得都还其次那至于你刚刚讲的快速通关这个部分我觉得你们刚刚也讲说只是你们对金额的部分有点意见对不对所以金额会动对不对那我认为就是说"},{"start":4735.959,"end":4761.129,"text":"这也是你今天不定也有不定的问题你定了有一个明确化的依据那定了以后明确化依据如果说真的有什么要浮动调整的那也不会是短期间的事情也不至于马上有太大的变动所以我倒是认为说前面我已经也有你们的意见我采纳了一些那这部分我觉得其实影响没有那么大你们自己都讲其实几乎没有评鉴不过的嘛"},{"start":4761.849,"end":4776.682,"text":"那這種情況之下的話實際上這個部分也是安一些新聞業者的心啦好不好那如果這樣的話我覺得就我們這個條件就達成公示大概也不用再花時間再掃免可以嗎我有意見來我們選委員"},{"start":4777.97,"end":4796.648,"text":"第一個我還是堅持這一定要放上去了這什麼快速通關你們NCC現在做的事情我們也不相信你們快速通關是你們自己的行政規則你們隨時都可以修改所以最好是把它明寫在裡面那我要講就之前因為當時我提的修法的時候那時候是執照期間是六年"},{"start":4797.208,"end":4821.003,"text":"所以就说是办理评鉴的前三年之内不可以就是有受处罚超过三次然后累计金额不可以超过八十万因为现在已经拖到延长到九年了所以反而这个部分的话办理评鉴前三年等于说六年之内他的办理的前三年他坦白说这个现在的条件是比之前更宽松"},{"start":4823.575,"end":4847.8,"text":"對然後如果說是這個沒有意見的話就第二項就維持那我也不去修改裡面的條件內容因為坦白說現在這樣的規定是對於衛星業者來講很容易就達標的很容易就達標那麼至於就說如果說真的是有評鑑不合格然後被撤銷處分被廢止他的處分"},{"start":4852.861,"end":4877.406,"text":"可是我認為其實我覺得其實還是要這樣會對於衛星業者比較有保障好 來在討論的時候我這樣子還是我們希望是"},{"start":4879.452,"end":4901.832,"text":"環境是要越來越好劣幣不要驅逐良幣而我們是要保障好的業者就如果說他自己都願意好好的督促自己然後守法或是說守合乎我們規定的話我們就不要刻意的刁難所以我現在先確認一下如果假設17條依照這個羅志強等委員等人提出來的修正動議那就是把"},{"start":4902.893,"end":4930.773,"text":"第三段第一項評鑒結果不合格者主管機關應令其限其改正那就是把先輔導改善這五個字給拿掉那其他的部分就依照羅志強委員等幾位委員提出來的修正動議的文字內容修正通過NCC可以接受可以好 NCC可以接受那國民黨團民進黨團"},{"start":4933.595,"end":4955.035,"text":"可以接受好 那這樣子我們就依照第17條依照羅志強委員等三人修正動議通過修正動議修正通過好那再來第18條一樣也是有修正動議"},{"start":4958.12,"end":4963.539,"text":"應該是在同一份第18條 那也在我們第15頁來NCC麻煩"},{"start":4965.501,"end":4991.924,"text":"是 跟主席跟各位報告新修正的修正動議18條這部分是對應第三項這邊把對新聞台換照申請英語準語換照為原則因為是相對跟前一版有修正動議我們是相對可以理解的可以接受程度是比原來高很多"},{"start":4993.965,"end":5005.589,"text":"我會建議說文字起碼要對應第二條第八款的新聞台這個對應前面第二條第八款的定義部分把它扣連在一起新聞頻道及財經新聞頻道"},{"start":5009.71,"end":5024.383,"text":"所以你指的是文字上來講主管機關應對於新聞頻道及財經新聞頻道換照申請等於是把新聞台這三個字換成法律用語新聞頻道及財經新聞頻道對不對"},{"start":5029.534,"end":5057.082,"text":"等於是大家各退一步啦還是尊重我們主管機關的一個裁量但是另外一個部分也是保障我們現行合法的新聞台跟財經新聞頻道業者所以我們加入就是主管機關應對主管機關對於新聞頻道及財經新聞頻道換照申請逗號應以准語換照為原則句號那後面有個第二項之審酌標準"},{"start":5059.42,"end":5086.749,"text":"也是修正嘛 是不是好 來請教我們民眾黨 民進黨跟國民黨團民進黨團可以接受好 國民黨團可以接受好 為免大家不知道我們還是留個紀錄剛剛陳培育委員比了一個OK羅志強委員比了一個OK好 那NCC也可以接受那這樣子我們第18條就依照委員羅志強等三人修正動議修正通過"},{"start":5090.609,"end":5114.95,"text":"好 再來第19條在第16頁好 NCC麻煩19條這邊因為先前最新版的修正動議是上次在交友會這邊的我們會建議說如果可以的話臨時執照這邊是不是可以不用把它修訂進去 為什麼"},{"start":5115.51,"end":5136.557,"text":"因為當初友林知道設計是無廣跟有限為什麼會設計是有限有限是因為當初是一區一家如果它斷訊或怎麼樣整個區域的收視會影響可是衛廣知道是它只是一個平台上的其中一個頻道而已我們覺得它的必要性是沒有那麼強"},{"start":5138.177,"end":5162.744,"text":"如果假設一定要放進去的話它既然是參考郵廣法的我們會建議比照郵廣法的立法的方式就是說這邊 修正動議這邊寫應發給臨時執照郵廣法那邊是得發給 應改成得然後郵廣法那邊是最長不得預一年那這邊是兩年 我們會建議說"},{"start":5164.564,"end":5176.615,"text":"我們第一志願是說不要修啦如果要修就比照油管法因改成德 兩年改成一年來 我們在場委員針對第19條"},{"start":5179.69,"end":5204.791,"text":"我觉得这第19条我前面其实很多部分我相信那个NCC也看到一些部分我们都有很多的协商但第19条坦白讲是我认为我的提案当中重中之重那大概理由我们大概已经说了大概几百遍了所以今天我个人是觉得就保留吧我觉得这个部分我们这边我这边是坚持按照原来的条文谢谢好"},{"start":5208.732,"end":5235.531,"text":"我們在場委員有沒有其他意見好就還是要給韓國院長的事情做就對了沒有辦法今天就改變了沒問題好沒有啦因為如果說真的沒有辦法有共識我想我們就聚焦那NCC可以在這一段時間如果說能夠溝通再溝通那如果沒有辦法溝通的話我們之後院長協商好不好那第19條我們就保留送院會處理那再來第20條"},{"start":5238.975,"end":5255.412,"text":"對 第二十條因為已經在本屆第四會期第十六次院會三讀通過故本次就不予討論修正謝謝其實也是我們之前也已經在院會就已經有處理了好那再來第四十九條第二十一頁"},{"start":5256.892,"end":5265.661,"text":"那跟主席報告 因為剛剛民眾黨張委員您同意第4條不修所以這邊可以不用修好第49條是連帶第4條那這樣子第49條不予修正維持維持現行條文好那再來第50條剛剛也已經修正過那再來是第23頁的第58條之一"},{"start":5280.23,"end":5305.005,"text":"58條之一其實是剛第五條的連帶嘛對 12條之一的連帶對 那是不是如果說改成經營新聞及財經新聞頻道那或自播新聞節目之頻道這後面或自播新聞節目之頻道這表要給刪除對 主席正確就是說剛剛比照第12條之一的修正方式好 主體一樣"},{"start":5306.204,"end":5335.115,"text":"那一樣就是20萬元以下200萬元以下罰還那另限期改善所以我再念一遍第58條之一糾正為經營新聞及財經新聞頻道之衛星廣播電視事業違反 後面沒錯另外立法紀錄上可不可以把它改為57條之一57條之一立法上會比較好一點"},{"start":5335.711,"end":5363.689,"text":"好他應該是五十七條之一是不是好那初期委員沒有意見那我們就尊重NCC的建議那我們就改成五十七條之一的修正好那如果沒有意見的話五十七條之一依照台灣民眾黨團提案修正後通過"},{"start":5365.694,"end":5375.698,"text":"好在23頁66條之一翁小林委員的提案來NCC這邊這是20條的19條的對應的罰則連動的"},{"start":5392.486,"end":5419.497,"text":"因為19條我們保留嘛所以66條之一也就保留好那66條之一保留送院會處理好來整理一下好來各位委員我就稍微是不是要不要整理一下"},{"start":5421.045,"end":5449.531,"text":"馬上會整理出來大家稍等一下我等一下把念一下我們今天的協商結論然後也請各位出席委員簽名畫押好感謝大家一個小時非常有效率而且專業的審查要等一下好不好我們請稍等一下拜託請稍等一下我們馬上請同仁整理完出來"},{"start":5451.633,"end":5458.319,"text":"民眾黨補簽因為剛剛張其凱委員他的那個條文已經修正嘛那另外他57條之一他也可以接受"},{"start":5483.418,"end":5486.621,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":5523.288,"end":5523.908,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5698.178,"end":5705.107,"text":"要保留再去檯面找那邊討論好了再過一點 大家都好辛苦"},{"start":5747.659,"end":5758.07,"text":"好各位委員我們報告一下今天1月12號禮拜一下午2點到3點30分在本院紅樓201會議室黨團協商結論跟依據這個衛星廣播電視法相關修法協商結論一協商通過條文第5條第10條增訂第12條之一17條18條"},{"start":5770.482,"end":5789.684,"text":"第五十條及原真定第五十八條之一條次修正為第五十七條之一如附件一二維持現行條文的有第四條第四十九條兩條均不予修正三保留條文"},{"start":5791.121,"end":5814.854,"text":"第十九條及第六十六條之一兩條條文四 第二十條於一百一十五年一月二日本屆第四會及第十六次院會依建復二讀之委員羅志強等二十五人提案三讀修正通過原不予修正五 其餘均照審查會審查結果通過"},{"start":5817.045,"end":5832.037,"text":"沒有問題的話那我們就請今天出席的協商代表大家簽字12條之一民眾黨那個因為有文字修正他的他的這個這個這個志向的是在哪邊去把他交代"},{"start":5833.517,"end":5860.828,"text":"就協商通過條文那剛剛有念過就是協商通過有修正通過所以第5條第10條增訂第12條之1第17條第18條第50條及原增訂第58條之1條次修正為第57條之1所以這個文字有修正就請剛剛依照我們審查的這個內容好不好好沒有問題的話就請各位代表簽名感謝"},{"start":5868.786,"end":5871.847,"text":"好 那今天協商到此散會 感謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":5900.674,"end":5902.89,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"167022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0e0269be2cadccca6b4bfe832d32782da61002d6f89771a8486cf5dcbc0b7422b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:25:21 - 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警察假如是我們5.56同用跟7.6都是跟我們維持的 也是要我們採購因為剛剛提到了就是說 現在你面對的敵方包括我們自己國軍 我們都開始有防彈背心了就傳統的鉛彈頭啊 貫穿力是不夠的 因此你才有鋼心彈但在過去大家沒有提到這一點"},{"start":90.689,"end":119.81,"text":"那我举例美国陆战队学校在Quantico他们每个人一年的年度训诞超过500发所以未来很明显的我们的训练除了陆军的发射弹药在增加以外海空军的基本上在基地防卫的训练的弹药也在提升所以这个如果大家能够做更明确的表白表示这个钢心弹头跟以前是不一样的那这个时候外面的老百姓就比较了解了"},{"start":120.795,"end":145.725,"text":"我們現在就是打算就是說訓練用彈就用在射擊的時候就把它都推成掉以後我們就只生產甘辛彈我這邊列一個表就是根據我們國防部這個四年期總檢那麼做出來的我也算是花了一番功夫把裡面都降讀了那我們在下面就是"},{"start":147.182,"end":172.751,"text":"建议具体的规划江财宁讲了不只是军备局中科院商购外购建立整体的能量那要强化整体的供应链这个时候重要作战区预知后勤的补给站提升运输效能在运输强弹药的同个时间软性的问题就是我们的急救伤患尤其是在弹药库的附近了"},{"start":173.547,"end":195.951,"text":"那个急救伤患同样我们的雪江配合这个案子要增加就是统合民间的物力人力资源资源竞速作战同时我们也强化这个一位的资源那跨部会强化关键基础设施同时维持社会核心的机能跟政府运作那下张图表就是我们战死国军的维持力啊"},{"start":197.253,"end":211.5,"text":"原則是維持作戰部的彈藥無虞在有限時間內確保儲存的這個安全儲存滿足部隊的需求這裡面就產生了彈藥庫本身的電力供應因為"},{"start":213.117,"end":232.724,"text":"彈藥庫的安全是很重要的它的緊急醫療這個戰傷的幫助要在附近另外通往彈藥庫的道路電網或者緊急發電機甚至機動發電機這個部分也是要能夠在配合這個案子同步強化並不是指一個儲存量"},{"start":234.104,"end":257.071,"text":"彈藥庫的內部很深,如果沒有電,用人力是沒有搬運的,所以並不是光步槍彈,這個時候就涉及剛才講的大口徑的砲彈。大口徑的砲彈在年度訓練過程中因為射程近,所以中間有部分送藥打掉了,結果你整體的彈藥就不能夠用了,因為你不能發揮到最大射程。"},{"start":257.771,"end":278.122,"text":"所以这个时候的送药的就像您讲的那个配合产制这个时候要强化可是呢因为平时的演训啊我们的射程都是展示型的这个1500码2000码所以都看得见爆炸点所以你送的送药的几号送药消耗的特别大而其他的送药呢留在那边"},{"start":279.002,"end":299.816,"text":"保存的时间又不一样了所以这个时候在未来尤其是特种火炮这个弹药储存配合训练用的因为这个时候不是光弹头了这是送药的组合不是药桶式的那大口径的是这个样子我想大家了解尤其是外岛的像240基本上你现在是"},{"start":300.817,"end":326.102,"text":"送药是不够了那在这个里面就强调不只是硬体包括国军后勤这个补保运位的人力人力要增加因为你弹药的需求储存量增加后勤的人力相对的要增加要确保道路交通重要道路的畅通这个部分是不是在配合这个全案建案的时候后勤人力有成长"},{"start":329.363,"end":357.603,"text":"委員好 向委員報告我們後勤的人力一直持續在檢討那當然現在因應這個缺員的狀況下我們即便增加了員額可能也不一定有人但是我們現在一直在朝這個方向在努力同時您剛提到連外的道路部分以及交通運行的部分這個部分國安會現在也有重視以及跟美方的研討之後有非常多在道路交通暫時的時候如何管制以確保我的部隊調動我的後勤補給資源如何有道路使用的優先權這部分都在檢討"},{"start":358.598,"end":366.464,"text":"好 謝謝最後一張圖是強調我們的韌性就是說我們台灣之盾當然面對有挑戰與考驗"},{"start":368.137,"end":396.874,"text":"那敌方现在对我们威胁最大的反而不是东风系列的战术导弹是他现在卫视系列的火箭因为射程够远了那么数量够多了那我们在防卫作战的时候用现有的精准武器去拦截这个耗损率太高因此在台湾之盾这个未来的规划里面整体运用下就是说武力的分配我们先看一下这是培洛西来的时候"},{"start":397.694,"end":421.113,"text":"这个时候打的还是各位看的这个是打了11枚东风导弹那在这一次中共演习的时候就是打火箭了北部打了17枚南部打了10枚但是我希望我们未来在演习在内部做模拟的时候想象一下如果他今天"},{"start":422.17,"end":449.393,"text":"全部是用这些远程火箭精准火箭做第一批的射击那你在台湾之盾有效的指管联合这个目标分配情况下有没有足够的弹药或是哪些地方你认为你能够承受我们比方来讲这是一个模拟的那不只是对了我们的地面的基地海空军的基地陆军的指挥所雷达站"},{"start":450.868,"end":474.214,"text":"我们未来的储存位置就像刚刚你讲的也变成了目标了所以在这种情况下我们台湾之盾怎么样要做更有效的整合这下面你可以看到未来的火箭它是以量取胜它有足够的射程这个时候如果我们不能有效分配目标"},{"start":475.242,"end":486.228,"text":"或是建立一些假目標讓他消耗我們有限的武器啊就變成效益不能發揮了所以台灣之盾本身呢在這個整體規劃裡面"},{"start":488.971,"end":518.03,"text":"不只是远程的中程的近程的到点防御的那整体的网络那结合整个过去讲CCISR后来C5ISRT现在还C6I都出来了但是整体来讲这个网络其实就是让你的中心可以左右移重心可以前后调节所以去中心化不是目的是你的方法手段要有一个完整的网络架构那这个时候啊"},{"start":519.076,"end":538.193,"text":"我们才能够防卫所以现在的今天虽然谈的是弹药持续那不只包括火箭飞弹这个大型炮兵新武器甚至步枪子弹但是最后在这个威胁情况下这个网络如何能够发挥有效的效果中科院您做个说明"},{"start":540.907,"end":552.026,"text":"這邊回覆委員在台灣之盾的設計裡面當然第一個我們是會去強化我的每一個接戰的效率讓我的每一枚彈藥都能夠達到最精準的接戰第二個就是"},{"start":553.106,"end":575.328,"text":"我們也不會讓他的火箭在發射之後他就肆無忌憚的一直發射我們一定是在他發射之初我們也會有相對應的措施來阻止他能夠有效的發射第三個就是針對每個火箭它的威脅性我們要去評斷哪些是我可承受的損失哪些是我必須一定要接戰要把它攔下來的這個在台灣之盾的設計裡面這三點都有考慮在內"},{"start":576.503,"end":591.269,"text":"里面提出一个建议就是说因为他的火箭军部署的范畴他的射程超过我们你可以摧毁反制摧毁一部分但是还有一部分是超过射程之外的这个时候未来的新来的这个海马斯或者是真诚的"},{"start":591.789,"end":607.951,"text":"看怎么运用所以这个里面又结合了情报的一个是机动目标的位置第二个是固定目标的位置这个都要把它纳入台湾之盾我们在这个议题上需要一个长时间共同努力也希望确实落实这个专案的效益谢谢各位"}]}},{"id":"167019","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167019","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0263ff5b6e25265fee6ea9f55fbd6b87561002d6f89771a84c2d5238c042452c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:11:45 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謝謝主席我今天有兩項提案第一個提案是擴大預防性羈押的部分那就是刑事訴訟法101條之一那目的就是要保障社會安全第二是限制審判中"},{"start":23.737,"end":41.438,"text":"也就是檢察官已經起訴了然後現行法卻還可以無限抗告的刑事訴訟法404條目的是要確保法院的公平審判我先提第二個的重點是檢察官起訴後的法院審理期間並不是包括到檢察官偵查期間"},{"start":42.819,"end":62.091,"text":"首先對刑事訴訟法101條之一的預防性羈押這個是一個司法院跟法務部都贊同所以也就是這個部分比較沒有爭議因為現行的預防性羈押還有漏洞他對於一些新興的犯罪其實他的那個規範保障的範圍還不夠所以我要求"},{"start":63.232,"end":81.839,"text":"修法的部分能夠加入第一個 針對詐欺集團的部分第二個 針對性暴力的部分第三個 針對組織犯罪的部分那有關詐欺集團的部分呢因為我們看到像台版的簡樸在案其實他把這些人當作豬仔一樣這樣子凌虐 然後囚禁他們"},{"start":82.719,"end":104.79,"text":"所以這種的犯罪集團其實我們在偵查中我們就希望說對他們予以羈押而且也防止他們交保之後繼續騙或者是繼續欺負這些被害人第二個性暴力的部分那我們看到像創意私房 台版N號房等等的這些數位性暴力的犯罪這些人 被害人其實很大比例可能是我們的好朋友或小孩"},{"start":105.629,"end":129.394,"text":"那這些案子呢 被害人最怕的就是被告交保之後繼續散佈這些私密的影像所以我們希望透過羈押去斬斷他們的犯罪工具第三個 對於組織犯罪 很多幫派的火拼 恐嚇其實它是具備高度的暴力以及反覆實施的狀況所以我認為這個必須要加入到預防性羈押裡面"},{"start":130.494,"end":149.863,"text":"這個修法的目的其實就是要保障每一位國人尤其是針對這些比較容易反覆實施的案件我們希望能夠擴大預防性羈押對於人民保障的範圍第二個我們要談的是刑事訴訟法404條也就是案件起訴之後要限制檢方的抗告權"},{"start":151.192,"end":170.771,"text":"那我看法務部的報告是反對這次的修法他認為說會阻礙真實發現也就是會妨礙檢察官去發現真相但是我覺得這句話完全不合理而且是完全自我否定檢察官的職責我的草案是針對起訴後審判中我剛剛已經強調了不包括起訴前"},{"start":171.972,"end":188.892,"text":"那法務部呢各位檢察官因為經過長時間的調查終於把被告破獲而且當時在偵查中也羈押了偵查中羈押有四個月那既然已經起訴了其實理論上已經依照刑事訴訟法規定代表你們已經收證完成了"},{"start":189.813,"end":205.615,"text":"那這時候為什麼還會有這個發現真實障礙的問題呢那如果會認為有發現真實障礙的可能性就只有兩個嘛也就是說你們起訴前就沒有查清楚而是草率起訴這是第一個第二個你們想靠壓人取共來逼他認罪"},{"start":207.076,"end":234.401,"text":"但是如果押人取供這個不是司法爭議啦這是凝虐的啦所以甚至去年啦在法官論壇裡面只有法官進得去的法官論壇也有很多批評的聲音啊他們認為說案子竟然已經起訴了審理中羈押與否這個就是法官來決定就可以啊檢察官在這個時候呢該做的事情是你起訴的時候你再交給法院人犯交給法院法官接押的時候你必須在那個時候要把這個"},{"start":235.501,"end":251.866,"text":"被告需要繼續接押的理由寫清楚就好或者是你要實質的到庭論告現在很多檢察官起訴了就把卷證資料丟給書記官然後書記官去把卷證和人移到法院去然後法官在開庭審理要不要接押的時候檢察官根本不到庭啊"},{"start":252.826,"end":273.776,"text":"這個是現在的問題嘛那你不到庭你不去告訴法官他有接押的必要性後來法官沒有押了你又出來跳腳說要趕快抗告所以這個部分呢我們認為說檢察官既然你起訴那一天其實代表你偵查已經終結了那個時候你就應該要把相關的證據資料交給法官那不能說法官"},{"start":274.716,"end":303.916,"text":"要不要壓人你說這跟真實發現有關我覺得這個是否定掉刑事訴訟法裡面對於檢察官自我的要求所以是去年在法官論壇裡面很多法官就在批評這個制度他認為說不應該讓法院審理的時候檢察官在法院審理的時候還有抗告權因為這一次一次的這樣子抗告而且是無限制的無抗告期限無抗告次數限制的這個"},{"start":304.876,"end":324.871,"text":"無限的迴旋其實是架空法官的獨立審判而且是逼著法官你一定要給我押因為你不押我就繼續抗告抗告抗告到有一天你煩了那有一些法官也認為這個無限的抗告其實也侵害了他獨立審判讓他沒有辦法花心思在審理上面而是整天在看這個抗告"},{"start":326.312,"end":343.845,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望說這也要來修改而且不應該因為無限期的抗告而讓整個訴訟的制度拖慢所以我們希望檢察官是用證據來說服法官而不是在程序上面一直吵一直抗告然後搞到法官改口為止"},{"start":344.545,"end":366.887,"text":"否則無限抗告其實就是一種無限的施壓所以我要求修法不是削弱檢察官的權限而是我希望把羈押放到刑事訴訟法上的正確的位置這個沒有侵害檢察官的權利所以我希望第一個起訴的時候檢察官就必須把羈押必要性說清楚你擔心有逃亡串證再犯"},{"start":367.648,"end":391.339,"text":"等等的問題 第一個你要具體說明第二個 起訴接押庭的時候檢察官要去實質的攻防你如果你不去到庭 法官放人那是你自己不願意努力那怪不了任何人 所以當接押庭的時候檢察官要到庭 自己把話說清楚那辯方也能夠當庭的回應這樣子才是對的 然後讓法官聽完做一個"},{"start":392.539,"end":420.199,"text":"有意義的下一個裁定第三個審判中的羈押決定是回歸法官公平審判才是正道我們不能讓這個程序是無限循環以及無限循環所以我今天提了兩個案子就是第一個透過預防性羈押來保護社會安全第二個我們要透過限制無限期的那個無限的抗告次數我們來保障審判的公平那我認為該押的就押該處理的犯罪就用力的處理"},{"start":421.08,"end":426.877,"text":"社會正義展現就在這個地方我們不要用壓人來取共我們要展現的是司法的正義好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0b7419dfdeb851a79b4bfe832d32782da61002d6f89771a84f151987b109fadff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:13:07 - 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有請顧部長有請顧部長是 羅揚"},{"start":11.463,"end":25.155,"text":"部長早安剛剛報告有提到就是說我們國軍的彈藥籌貨來源有國內自製也賦予對外軍購或商購等多元的管道的各種方式來取得那前陣子有關於這個5.56公里這個鋼芯普通彈的這個外購價格被抨擊說買貴了"},{"start":33.402,"end":38.086,"text":"因為說20年前經費局賣給美國每一顆只有6塊錢然後我們現在對外購買我們的單價高達18.86元那針對這個質疑到目前為止我都還沒有看到國防部有一個正式的說明而且我們也被質疑就是說我們明明有自己資產的能力為什麼還要跟國外來購置這個部分的話是不是請部長在這裡具體說明一下"},{"start":62.926,"end":78.181,"text":"我先說明一下 跟美國那邊的合作主要是因為美國提供發射藥 抵火 包材 還有運輸我們只做彈頭 銅殼跟組裝的部分"},{"start":82.054,"end":105.95,"text":"所以二十年前的部分是這個六派期間嗎有一個時間點是九十四年到民國一百年一個是一百零一年到一百零九年那這兩個都是由美方來提供發射要抵火跟包裝材等原料而且還有提供運輸等等那這個部分呢我們在"},{"start":108.572,"end":128.431,"text":"205廠他所負責的是只有彈頭銅殼跟組裝的部分那跟委員再進一步報告一下就是說我們這一次有對外來採購這一次有對外來採購因為大家都在問對外採購的這件事情我先說明一下那個價格的部分現在絕標價格應該是可以公開的所以我們現在是15.5315.53"},{"start":133.275,"end":140.243,"text":"15.53不是說原先報導所講的是18.86那個是預算金額那是預算金額決標的金額是15.53那麼我們有本來就後置式核定的這個提供的入境的價格是16塊"},{"start":149.588,"end":177.369,"text":"一把所以我們對外採購並沒有比較貴這個要說明一下因為這個這兩件事情是不一樣一個是當時跟台美合作的這個這個是一件事那我們現在要自治軍備局有生產這個5.56的鋼琴彈這也是事實那另外跟委員報告一下之所以要需要是主要是這樣就是說因為我們從111年起有我們要涉及的這個"},{"start":178.644,"end":181.565,"text":"涉及的訓量已經從111年起由每年的2340餘萬發已經提升到去年是5881萬發就是2340萬餘發到5881提升了2.5倍"},{"start":201.724,"end":230.074,"text":"那所以我們現在一方面軍備局要擴產整個的產線那擴產整個的產線會在今年會陸續但是這個相關有一些底火的部分或者是還有一些現在可能是一個產線只能做一種彈那現在要把它拆成四條線那這個部分也其實是放在那個"},{"start":231.73,"end":250.068,"text":"特別 敵火放在特別 或者軍備局再跟您跟委員報告 這個也是上禮拜跟馬委員都報告過了我們原本光中雲區的生產線會用貢線大概一年大概是兩千多萬發那現在已經請中科院來維治FN的產線有四條線 一條5.56 今年三月會全量產"},{"start":257.935,"end":275.653,"text":"7.62跟9公里手槍跟50機槍的槍彈是放在9月那這個達到之後就跟上次馬文君委員給我們指導的4000萬發5.56那這個量都沒問題的只是說要應付暫時我們的敵火我們原本我們的救線的敵火是大概2000多萬"},{"start":276.634,"end":299.291,"text":"我們一定要提升到四千多八千多所以我們特別預算有特別編了一條抵火的線前一陣子不是有媒播出來說我們跟大使國際有買了四億顆嗎我們是為了要建置中間我們怕各軍種的量產所以我們購進來的實際上我們還是要爭取特別預算有一條就是要做抵火的敬請委員支持以上報告"},{"start":300.432,"end":324.888,"text":"刚刚我有听到部长说其实后面到最后的价格我们其实一颗大概是15.53一颗不是原先所报道的18.86那是对外购买的部分对我想请教今年我们应该也有自制我们的绝标的价格到底一颗是多少我们自制的部分价格是多少因为我有看到111年我们那时候的绝标价格是一颗是9.5块"},{"start":326.049,"end":327.852,"text":"9塊半 是嗎 111年的時候沒有 這個應該是沒有"},{"start":332.981,"end":338.244,"text":"跟委員報告 20年來陸軍從來沒有給我們委制過5.56鋼芯彈那這也是20年來我們因為搬遷的產能不足的調節第一次對外採購5.56鋼芯彈 M855跟馬委員講的沒錯 M855自製的部分 我們自製的價格到底是多少我們自製的價格 現在已經部搬價格就46塊了"},{"start":357.573,"end":360.354,"text":"我們的部分就是16塊我們現在是16塊是不是今年114年1.15開始就是16塊委員講的是普通單因為我在想普通單是9.5普通單是同胞簽我們現在統一陸軍的需求就是同胞綱讓它實戰化"},{"start":382.563,"end":403.377,"text":"OK 好了解所以目前為止的話這個部分因為我沒有看到任何國軍在這個價格部分有自治能力這部分有提出對外的說明因為我們搜尋了很多的資料我想第一時間如果有質疑有被質疑有疑慮我想應該要第一時間就要來說明這個部分對不對這個因為"},{"start":407.48,"end":426.355,"text":"還有這個現在這個要有滴火有發射藥有什麼所以我也是聽了有點複雜所以我們會努力來澄清一下是因為已經事隔這麼多天了我到一直到昨天我們還在搜尋說我們有沒有一些官方的說明說實在的確實是沒有"},{"start":427.035,"end":444.819,"text":"所以才在這裡呢請教部長跟各個單位那再來還有一點就提到就是那個產能的這個部分因為我有看到像之前我們軍備局有評估戰時我國的作戰時日整體單兵步槍的耗彈大約是3.5億顆對不對這是你們之前有提到這個部分嗎是嗎這個部分之前我有看到你們軍備局有在評估這個部分我們軍備局不會評估作戰的需求量這個部分是"},{"start":459.025,"end":466.698,"text":"因為我有看到媒體有報導這個部分到底我們如果是說我國作戰時日的話我們整體單兵步槍的這個彈耗大概是多少我想這個我們現在因為"},{"start":472.369,"end":498.457,"text":"就跟委員報告就是說我首先說明我們在108年的時候為了要配合高雄市的那個部分的一個經貿園區的一個開發所以我們在108年的時候是有曾經有請各軍種來回復我們各彈藥的一個需求那這個時候我們就加速生產然後在100年現場之前來"},{"start":499.857,"end":526.395,"text":"提供了這個含糊各項的需求然後在18年如期產製滿足但是後來就是因為我們剛剛講的我們現在是訓練的實戰化的訓練跟義務役的增兵的關係還有我們14天教召的關係這幾項因素包括義務役14天教召還有這個實戰化訓練都大幅的增加所以剛剛講的那個訓練的這個部分我們就會要來這個"},{"start":528.016,"end":557.156,"text":"已經每一年要發射發出成長2.5倍那另外這個是等於是已經把訓練用的打的彈已經用掉了戰備的量所以我們為了要提升整個戰備的量我們現在要雙軌並行也就是說軍備局要產製那另外也如果有必要的時候也要進行這個外購那至於我們現在評估戰時的整個的量"},{"start":558.257,"end":573.615,"text":"我想可能沒有辦法我想並不是以公開在這邊整個說明因為包括我們的吸行量補給還有等等的我想這個部分我們我們可能私下可以來說明但可能不以公開的來說"},{"start":575.402,"end":591.509,"text":"所以以現階段來講其實我們自己本身的生產的量其實基本上還是不夠所以我們還是需要對外採購是嗎 是這樣子現在按照軍備局的講法是說他特別預算我跟委員報告 按照我們"},{"start":601.013,"end":621.87,"text":"假如產線FN今年都互現了我們的新舊線暫時三班制下去產制我們一年都可以產一億發以上可是一個子彈要配一個低火我的低火是趕不上的所以我要用特別預算編一條低火的線低火的線假如增產完之後那條低火的線到達5000萬平時"},{"start":623.971,"end":633.737,"text":"暫時可以到達七千多萬將近那在原來的兩千多萬加下來我一年就可以生產一億發以上的敵火以上報告OK好謝謝那再來還有就是稍微一點時間我想再給我一點時間我有看到我們這個1.25兆的國防特別條例草案裡面有提到第四條第六項他有提到就是強化作戰持續量能相關的裝備那其實這個是不是就含了這個我們這個戰備彈藥的這個"},{"start":652.11,"end":657.264,"text":"囤儲的這個部分 如果說這個條例一直沒有通過的話那這個部分是不是也受到一些影響 這有說明一下嗎"},{"start":658.843,"end":683.382,"text":"委員好 戰委司司長在這邊跟委員報告我們在這次特別預算裡面除了我們剛剛討論的小口徑彈藥之外另外一個重點事實上是大口徑的彈藥那國軍目前大口徑的彈藥以及大口徑的發射藥是需要大幅提升那在之前我們已經說明過我們要把我們的戰備庫存因應敵可能的各種狀況去做提升"},{"start":684.002,"end":692.066,"text":"那這個數量雖然沒有辦法在這邊公開可是它的額度是相當的大必須要用特別預算來做一次性的採購才有辦法滿足"},{"start":694.701,"end":714.715,"text":"好 不管是這個1.25兆國防特別條例或是我們的這個國防預算我們真的希望在野黨一起來努力那明天呢我們又遇到這個程旭委員會在場也有程旭委員會的陳永康委員請大家一起來支持啦讓這個國防特別條例呢明天能夠順利的呢 覆為來做審訊好 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謝謝召委 有請顧部長請顧部長部長早部長因應這個對岸敵情威脅不斷的提升那也針對我們彈藥籌貨的相關規劃尤其是在這個戰爭的時候高消耗的這種情境之下確實是當前我們這個備戰工作一個重要議題"},{"start":30.177,"end":54.056,"text":"那從國防部今天所報告的內容來看在執行面上我們是目前是以國內自治為主那外購為輔的原則考量到這個國際情勢在現實上的一個困難那除了要結合多元管道強化供應鏈的韌性以外也因應這個新式武器同步納入但要庫存的這個"},{"start":55.718,"end":71.696,"text":"設施優化相關規劃那顯然國防部目前對於如何達成這個彈藥供應不中斷的一個目標也已經有相對應的一個策略但是在這個執行的方式上我想就能夠公開的部分來和部長您做一個討論"},{"start":72.657,"end":95.483,"text":"首先在報告當中我們國防部將結合新式的裝備獲得導入有盟的技術來爭取新式彈藥自主的一個生產來建立我們在地彈藥的一個生產線這對於我們彈藥的持續供應來說是很重要的一個目標但實際上要做到恐怕不是那麼的容易"},{"start":96.806,"end":124.624,"text":"那我想先請教部長就是我們目前向友盟爭取在地共同生產的這個彈藥主要的困難點在哪裡那有沒有辦法來克服請部長簡要說明我想我們有以這個15流彈炮為例的話最主要就是糖壓的不同所以我們現在已經跟美方在開始這方面的合作"},{"start":126.735,"end":142.796,"text":"跟委員報告我們的國產的糖鴨跟美方的不一樣就是說像以藥物流砲而言我們的糖鴨我們的砲是美軍在早期已經計算給我們的砲管比較短那美軍現用的現役的砲管比較長"},{"start":144.578,"end":171.878,"text":"所以它的糖壓比較大那為了我們的防衛的韌性我們台美雙方已經初步的以255流砲因為烏克蘭的戰爭實戰驗證了255流是消耗最快的所以我們跟美方已經初步著手從共同生產255流砲開始然後資訊相當的機敏 不便說明成功之後再推展到其他的武器彈藥 以上說明"},{"start":172.358,"end":201.984,"text":"所以156炮這個目前在台灣是可以生產就對了現在在談了 正在初步下談那因應這個戰訓需求的逐年增加我們這個彈藥庫存的這個量能也應該一併要提升那在這次這個報告當中同樣有提到要優化我們國軍彈藥管理及儲存的設施以強化作戰的一個持續力那針對這個部分我想了解的是我們在現有的這個人員之下怎麼樣來提升"},{"start":202.484,"end":208.75,"text":"我們庫儲設施的量能和彈藥管理的相關方式"},{"start":209.828,"end":234.077,"text":"包委員我們針對敵情威脅的抖聲我們目前針對彈藥是配合我們整個作戰的部署的方式來進行全面性的提升那各位可以看到我們在先前的國土安全任性裡面已經編了一部分的錢去整修我們的彈藥庫那其他的部分我們也會依據我們"},{"start":235.738,"end":249.452,"text":"這個分區配置混合囤積加大眾生進入地下這個原則部署在每一個地方然後依照他的需求去建各種不同的形式的彈藥庫來滿足未來我們整個防衛作戰的需求"},{"start":253.459,"end":269.697,"text":"另外向委員報告我們在整體的後勤的部分未來我們也會採機動化運輸的方式在即將遭受攻擊前我們會把原有的庫儲彈藥做前推預制同時採用機動化的方式在平時的話我們會用我們建制車輛暫時的話會結合民間的力量來共同執行這個機動化運輸後勤"},{"start":273.387,"end":295.029,"text":"好那談到這個運輸我想先請教一下在這個戰爭的時候是這個彈藥是高消耗的一個情境那為確保我們迅速而且能夠快速的把這個彈藥運輸到這個需要的位置那我們在推進的過程裡面我想請教是"},{"start":296.17,"end":310.061,"text":"這些彈藥離開庫房在運送的過程當中我們要如何來確保它的安全性這第一點那我們目前負責彈藥運輸的這些運具是否足以應對這個敵情的一個威脅報告 第一個我們在彈藥運輸的時候絕對是檢派專業的人員隨車來押運第二個在"},{"start":318.513,"end":341.172,"text":"任何的彈藥執行運輸之前我們會有機動路線的選定應變計畫的測定以及細故檢查安全措施等等同時如果必要的話我們必須要申請路權至於第二個問題剛剛委員提到的建制數據現在是足夠的當然是因應平時的狀態下那在暫時的部分如同我前面所說的我們會結合民間的力量以及動員的車輛共同來執行"},{"start":342.833,"end":356.469,"text":"好 我覺得這個回答應該是比較制式的啦因為我們如果在戰爭的時候我相信我們的後勤車輛一定是被這個敵方所鎖定的而且有可能是針對性的"},{"start":358.035,"end":380.511,"text":"我們在許多的這個演習過程裡面也都驗證在這個暫時我們這個運輔的車輛的這種安全性應該是要相對應的提高啦這部分我是提醒啦就我們後續在這個相關的這個演習當中可能這個部分要更加的這個委員提到可能就有兩部分一個部分是屬於暫時的交通管制這個會在暫時成立這個"},{"start":382.132,"end":402.45,"text":"聯合運輸指揮處然後第二個是屬於數據的部分那這個部分牽扯到全社會防衛任性也就是說我們現在跟各部會相關所掌握的這些器具跟能力我們要做相關的一個管制那這個部分是軍民到時候就要一起合作的好"},{"start":403.231,"end":431.246,"text":"那這部分也是考驗到我們後勤的這個暫時應變的能力這個部分再請我們國防部再留意那另外剛剛也有提到就是彈藥庫的整建整建的部分那我們看到一個非常重要的一個軍事設施的一個投資案是為了要反制共軍在紅色海灘進行登陸作戰的一個威脅預計在這個我們編列的98億餘元要就近"},{"start":432.186,"end":460.894,"text":"興建這個彈藥庫和彈藥的整修所讓海岸守備的這個部隊能夠就近整補彈藥有持久這個作戰的一個能力那我想請問部長就有關這項這個計畫建置的內容跟期程以及我們在紅色海灘就近興建彈藥庫的必要性為何並且這是一個跨年度的一個計畫如果今年預算未能順利通過的話是否有這個相對應的一個替代做法"},{"start":461.674,"end":488.408,"text":"跟委員報告 國軍沒有規劃在紅色海灘興建彈庫相關的設施都在安全的規劃下是在現有的營區內整建沒有在紅色海灘要興建彈藥庫的規劃那就是現有的我們彈藥庫要做提升就對了我們像以這個任性預算的話我們就以既有的彈藥庫整建作為優先考量興建彈藥庫的部分也會是在既有的營區之內"},{"start":489.969,"end":519.187,"text":"那我們這98億就是要這個經費是用用途就是用在這個現有彈藥庫還是還有我們現有的營區去做營98億是指那兩年的那個韌性的預算那都是在整建整建彈藥庫那另外由於這個中小型的這個無人機齁在戰場上的運用齁有這個消耗量比較大有的可能拿來做一次性的供給就是有去無返啦齁那"},{"start":520.989,"end":528.038,"text":"這個迭代更新又相當的一個快速包括先前美軍就已經將部分的這個無人機歸類為消耗品而我們這個陸軍應該也已經將無人機轉為耗材或是彈藥而不是裝備"},{"start":535.675,"end":550.441,"text":"這可能讓我們採購的流程更加的加速也展現我們想要發展無人機的一個決心但是我想和部長您討論的是國防部先前所採購的這些無人機陸續已經交裝了未來也會持續大量購置新的無人機"},{"start":551.101,"end":569.134,"text":"那我們無人機庫存這個設施整件的速度是否能夠跟得上膠裝的一個期程那和我們傳統彈藥庫相比的話尤其無人機裝有這個晶片和電池我們如何來強化對無人機的一個庫房的一個保護和管理"},{"start":570.756,"end":599.355,"text":"我想首先說明我們現在已經將這個123類型的無人機已經列為消耗品那攻擊型的這個無人機也把它列為彈藥那來處理它那至於這個無人機庫儲的一個設施的一個準備因為看每個無人機的一個情況不同因為從FPV一直到這個自殺式的投彈式的所以我想整個庫儲我們會按照無人機的這個"},{"start":602.318,"end":625.539,"text":"種類 狀況 我們來做一個世界的一個庫儲的設施的整備好 那如果以這個俄烏戰爭的經驗來觀察我們小型的無人機穿透率大概只有10%那消耗量相當的精準 因此能否快速的生產或是籌貨到大量的無人機這對戰爭的時候是相當的重要"},{"start":625.979,"end":647.139,"text":"那這部分我想再請教部長就倘若在這個戰爭的時候大量消耗無人機我們如何快速的籌貨在國內這個軍民共同生產平戰轉換的這個機制上有沒有已經建立這個機制是我們在這次特別預算裡面就會有一個無人機的籌購的一個計畫那我們主要"},{"start":648.74,"end":673.941,"text":"當然我們講的是現在軍備局公布的四類的攻擊型還有一類的健身型這個部分都是以在地生產然後我們讓它具有一個可擴充性所以會模組化的設計那麼讓它透過跟這個自己研發也好或跟國外合作也好然後能夠迭代創新所以我們會讓這個國內的這個自主的產能藉由我們公安部"},{"start":674.762,"end":685.976,"text":"以及行政院也正在做一個統籌型的無人機計畫我想目的都是在提升我們國防在自主的能量強化我們暫時的韌性"},{"start":688.595,"end":707.604,"text":"好那從這幾個議題我們從這個爭取有盟在地共同的一個生產到這個興建我們彈藥庫房的必要性再到無人機作為這個彈藥使用我想都圍繞在我們這個戰備的一個提升和戰力的一個持續性那這部分也請我們國防部持續"},{"start":708.864,"end":724.917,"text":"這個推進相關的整備工作必要時要向我們委員會來做這個預算的說明的急迫性和必要性以消弭我們許多這個委員可能對於這個預算使用的一個疑慮是好 以上謝謝部長好 謝謝委員指教"}]}},{"id":"167027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce047aad5511863114ae6ea9f55fbd6b87589ddda9214312ca759671ad967cd14905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:43:26 - 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但是據我了解好像現在是不是兩個機關就這個部分來講是有爭議我想因為照法因為法條上面我記得寫的就是行政院要編列相關預算"},{"start":78.143,"end":92.271,"text":"所以很清楚的基本上就是內政部不照顧退休的警消該編他不編所以剛剛羅委員應該講的沒有錯就這個部分來講的話就是賴政府基本上就是不願意"},{"start":94.098,"end":112.076,"text":"這個提高退休景銷的所得替代率所以到目前為止都沒有編列預算那接下來呢我想再就教就是循序部跟考試院因為我們知道在去年12月27號其實總統已經公布了退休"},{"start":113.457,"end":133.136,"text":"公教人員就是已經公布了這個退休金提侃法案那這個提侃法案裡面呢當然我們法條寫得非常清楚也就是這個退休所的替代率會回到就是112年的水準那麼就這個部分來說其實最重要的目的就是希望能夠讓"},{"start":136.158,"end":159.203,"text":"在107年退休金年改的方案當中能讓退休公教人員的權益能夠讓他止血停損所以我們並不是恢復到107年而是考慮到現在的物價的上漲各方面的因素"},{"start":160.423,"end":173.195,"text":"我們將這個所得替代率回復到112年那麼這個法公布了之後事實上本席發現這個全區部那麼日前所做的這個所發布的新聞稿那麼竟然會認為說在針對113年跟114年"},{"start":179.381,"end":206.872,"text":"已經退休的公教人員他們已經被扣掉的這個退休金那麼為什麼不能夠發還給他們對於他已經易扣的金額已經易扣金額的這個易扣的退休金的差額這個部分難道不應該要依法依照我們的這個公務人員的退休資金撫恤法第37條的規定他基本上就已經回溯到112年了"},{"start":209.588,"end":214.336,"text":"那麼請問考試院還有全區部你們是怎麼樣依法解釋的"},{"start":216.812,"end":239.889,"text":"這個事的關鍵點是在這個法律新修正的法律哪一天生效因為總統是12月26號公佈28號生效在修正的條文中並沒有追溯生效的條文所以在等於是說在12月27號以前我們全巨部這邊不只是全巨部就是我們整個退休金的發放就依照舊法"},{"start":240.569,"end":258.871,"text":"那從生效後適用新法所以它的效果現在的修正文字效果會變成從新法生效起恢復到112年的好 謝謝秘書長剛剛說明我要講的就是你們讀條文你要從第一項開始一直往後讀到第六項"},{"start":260.322,"end":283.452,"text":"你第一項裡面基本上本來就講了本法公佈施行前退休生效者的每月退休所得就是於本法公佈施行後不得超過一替代率上限計算的金額所以我們是修單37條的第6項而且在這個條文裡面本來就已經有了這個回溯的意思否則的話不會講說這個付表從113年之後不再適用"},{"start":284.485,"end":312.617,"text":"那麼同時也講所有的退休之前跟之後就在本法公布施行之前或之後的所有的退休人員他的所得替代率就是停留在112年的這個標準那我們在整個的當時修法的討論的過程當中是非常清楚的可是現在變成你全序部你自己做了曲解的這樣的一個法律的解釋我們這個條文"},{"start":315.211,"end":341.685,"text":"給非常多的法學專家看大家不會解釋成像你們這個樣子的說這個已經把這個現在的退休公教人員已經扣掉的113年跟114年的這個退休金差額竟然可以政府自己扣在那裡不發還你們知道這叫什麼嗎這叫做公法上的不當得利呀你們扣這筆錢是沒有法律上的原因的"},{"start":342.583,"end":360.037,"text":"如果所有替代率都恢復到112年這個對基金損害財富損害比較大的部分我們都願意依法執行的話其實沒有必要去在小地方做這樣的處理但是事實上你的說法就是你為什麼要在這個地方去做歪曲法律的解釋所以這是本心非常感到"},{"start":362.479,"end":379.796,"text":"真的看到考试院跟全序部你们的态度我非常的痛心是很多的公教人员都认为说考试院跟全序部难道不应该是所有的公教人员的大家长吗就你们完全没有爱护公教的这样的一个心情然后呢动不动"},{"start":380.296,"end":393.986,"text":"都是在做這個違反整個法律立法者當時修法本意的一個解釋同時來你們接下來說現在的這個之後的新的審定函你們會什麼時候發"},{"start":396.369,"end":409.634,"text":"大概需要六個月的時間為什麼需要這麼長的時間現在的系統不是就已經在了嗎系統需要修正系統修正需要這麼長的時間嗎這明明 我跟你講現在的新的發的審定還非常簡單就是未來所有的公交人員退休金的支領就是以112年的所得替代率為準你理論上你這個審定牌113年以後的人沒有112年那個數字"},{"start":424.273,"end":439.652,"text":"113年没有122年的数字因为113年以后退休的人他不会有一个112年的数字那还有这个系统不是就是以112年的为准所以如果说他现在也是未来不管任何时候退休的人都要使用的所以这个系统要重新去处理"},{"start":440.017,"end":445.623,"text":"你們本來就在112年就有個系統就有個參數所以我覺得你們現在是把事情複雜化他基本上就是簡單的修一個參數就可以了他不需要像你們這樣還要重新再開發個系統再製作個系統"},{"start":456.696,"end":464.682,"text":"我本心認為說你們現在就是故意在拖延時間我們不用故意拖延時間我們要讓公務同仁有合理的執行時間然後這個宣告我們這次的退休金提侃法案是違憲嘛這個是兩個分開的事情"},{"start":475.362,"end":490.137,"text":"我們要讓現在的公務同仁有合理的執行時間而且我們也參考了107年年改的重新核算時間跟去年警察人士條例之後我們重新核算的時間這個半年推估是合理的是跟委員說明"},{"start":491.383,"end":519.883,"text":"好 那這半年裡面你們多扣的這些退休公教的退休金你們要連本帶利還給他們嗎他們的錢就不是錢你們退服基金你們認為說你們繼續付的錢才是錢嗎如果後面審定出來之後該補的當然要補但是委員您剛剛講113 114年這個部分如果當時立法原意上有希望追溯到113年1月要生效的話"},{"start":520.523,"end":524.688,"text":"在文字中需要表達出來在文字裡面為什麼因為這是非常清楚在我們所有的法案當時修正討論當中以及從我們的第37條38條從第一項讀到最後一項"},{"start":538.41,"end":561.815,"text":"就是所有退休在本法公布施行前退休和之後退休的人所得替代率就是停在112年因此你之前給人家多扣的退休金本來就應該要發還好 那麼當然就是我本心知道你們現在跟行政院一樣就是提起釋憲之後反正能不動就不動所有的審定函然後都能夠拖拖半年"},{"start":563.676,"end":586.207,"text":"我們會透過其他的方式我們會要求如果說你們認為說你們這樣子的退休審定還半年才做出來是合理的話那我們來看看你們未來是不是這個考試院其他的預算的部分我們也讓你拖個半年啊你都不要有錢花啊這不是 這說起來是很荒謬的一件事情明明就是個簡單的事可是你們今天要故意把它搞得很複雜 然後政治化你們的心中還有軍公教嗎"},{"start":591.158,"end":602.287,"text":"重新審定真的需要時間委員施部長您還是大學教授然後來轉任藉調當政務官你不是不知道這些公教人員的心情"},{"start":603.567,"end":618.237,"text":"但是呢 本席認為說你在很多的這個議題特別是在推出性改革的議題處理上面你都沒有將心比心而且呢 處處是刻薄這些公教人員法律的解釋不是你詮訊部的解釋我們的立法已經清清楚楚了可是你們今天還可以硬拗拗成這個樣子讓本席真的是非常的感慨喔我不好是講說你們做的這樣習為非常的無恥"},{"start":633.827,"end":655.162,"text":"我們的生肖日就寫得清清楚楚的生肖日並沒有去追溯到前面去跟委員做這樣的報告總之就是說你們要拖半年嗎 這就是你們的態度 我們的立場我們沒有要拖半年 委員如果妳了解行政事務可以去多問一下我們之前都是用這種標準的作業程序在處理"},{"start":656.002,"end":672.082,"text":"我也去問了相關的系統的開發基本上不需要這麼久的時間好那接下來我要問的就是說你現在依照警察條例另外審定的退收所的替代率你們說已經完成了37790人的案件的審定是所有符合資格的都已經審定完成了嗎"},{"start":672.622,"end":697.584,"text":"根據內政部給我們的解釋符合的資格我們就進行審定那請問這次的有關於內政部移民署的相關人員我想這是內政部的解釋他並不適用那所以現在就是對於內政部移民署裡面的相關人員他們基本上這個不在你們這次合法的推出審定函裡面是嗎是的根據內政部的解釋好所以這個是屬於內政部的問題那今天內政部"},{"start":699.507,"end":712.287,"text":"移民署沒有在 但是人事行政總署可以做解釋嗎當然如果移民署裡面有原來適用警察觀證他當然有 不是全部這有內政部來做解釋的好 有內政部的代表嗎"},{"start":713.829,"end":739.359,"text":"委員好那之前那個群聚部這邊有請我們的警政署針對移民署的部分哪些人可以適用這個警察人員的35條修正的內容那當時警政署有依照警察人員是條例回覆給群聚部就是最後在退休的時候是警察官身份的他就可以依照這個修正後35條來重新擬定他的這個所得替代率那以上報告那所以有多少人呢"},{"start":743.446,"end":744.795,"text":"我現在是講移民署的部分"},{"start":747.779,"end":771.736,"text":"我們可能要再跟移民署確認一下因為今天沒有請移民署好那之後麻煩請你們提供資料給本席因為這次在警察人員條例第35條裡面其實本來有提到有關於移民的這個相關的人員那所以就這個部分的話應該也要合理的應該是在適用警察人員的這個新的退休制度所得替代率提高的範圍裡面"},{"start":772.677,"end":798.243,"text":"好然後接下來的話我想請教的是有關於全序部那麼我們知道在去年10月的時候考試院通過了重大的改革全面調高直轄縣市政府所屬機關職等上限那麼總計涵蓋了590個機關3500個職務可是呢事實上就是在這一波裡面去年的那一波大調升裡面似乎沒有包含公立學校服務的廣大的這個職員我們是以全屆機關為主"},{"start":802.628,"end":815.119,"text":"行政機關為主所以有關於公立學校的相關公務員我想這個部分我們目前你們沒有打算要調生嗎一併檢討啊因為我們現在知道在大學裡面還有高中以下的學校裡面其實還有一些公務員如果有其他的個案我想我願意多了解但是我們這次的調生是以特定的職務做調生並不是所有人都調整"},{"start":829.182,"end":834.685,"text":"本期希望說你們能夠針對就是在學校服務的公務人員的職等要進行一個檢討調整畢竟就是現在在整個公立學校裡面的公務人員的職等是偏低而且長期以來都沒有調整所以可不可以就請你們一個月內給本期一個報告到目前為止在公立學校裡面的相關公務員他們的職等分配已經多少年沒有調整"},{"start":859.1,"end":866.21,"text":"預計未來要怎麼樣進行改革可以嗎可以提供給委員好那麼最後一個部分這可能是跟人種有關那可以請兩位"},{"start":869.135,"end":889.643,"text":"这个部长跟秘书长可以先请回座那么我先要讲的就是说本期在这个前两周去参访考试院的时候那时候其实书记官们大家有反应对于现在书记官的这个待遇还有他们的专业家籍偏低那么同时呢也针对就是有关于记录费的部分"},{"start":890.423,"end":916.3,"text":"那么始终没有办法就提高所以至于现在书记官还有相关的事务官他们离职率很高那么根据公务人员的加挤办法的规定看起来我本来以为是全序部考试院可能会是加挤的主管机关但是目前是属于人事总组这里负责公务人员各个不同职系的加挤对吧对"},{"start":917.441,"end":938.828,"text":"是 那所以你們就這個部分你們會預計要來調整嗎跟委員報告 這個不管是司法院法務部啦所以是有關於紀錄書記官的這個他的專業佳績的部分其實都有持續跟我們人種處在做相關的討論有持續做專業討論 來 我們請王富敏"},{"start":942.472,"end":970.52,"text":"你知道你们这个司法人员的这个相关的记录书记官等等这些标准他们的专业家籍是从什么时候现在是4700元是对这是什么时候制定的这个法务部知道吗我这里的资料民国86年86年的时候制定的30年都没有动啊是可能要请副人事长"},{"start":972.222,"end":984.695,"text":"張富仁市長 是本席去參訪了司法院那邊的法官 書記官 他們的反應修這個專業家籍 也不是司法院有權利可以修對 他們會報到行政院"},{"start":985.475,"end":1011.329,"text":"報到行政院 幕僚是我們人事總署在作業是 所以可以被請王富密回去之後競訴像你們認為要調整的合理的專業佳節待遇然後報到人事總署跟委員報告過去都有非正式的一些討論司法院這部分是還沒有正式的函文司法院過去有沒有曾經有函文過希望能夠調升紀錄費"},{"start":1014.881,"end":1034.241,"text":"對 但是我們就是有一些意見的往返那如果這次市委員會再正式報出來我們會行政院的相關的會審機關再來繼續做研議好 總之我想這個是個嚴肅的議題我希望司法院能夠多幫"},{"start":1037.251,"end":1053.89,"text":"這個基層的書記官還有就是各法官助理啊等等去多爭取權益那麼如果說該調的就要調那麼現在人事長副人事長這裡說因為你們沒有報對我不知道是不是這樣好但是呢我希望就是人事總處也應該積極的"},{"start":1055.211,"end":1061.857,"text":"去調整各個職系的專業家級看起來不是只有司法院是民國86年訂定這個標準到現在很多的職系的專業家級都沒有調升我覺得這是一個嚴肅的問題嚴重的問題希望你們能夠盡量做調整好嗎我們非常感謝委員利用這個機會幫我們爭取"},{"start":1073.587,"end":1087.112,"text":"那只要人事總署他願意支持我們的話行政上我們一定會是那個那個毫無延誕的立刻衝過去申請的謝謝好OK那就這樣子謝謝那就麻煩就是人事長還有可以嗎"}]}},{"id":"167026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce019a1e4fefc4f8a7e307671192a7c66aa89ddda9214312ca77fa58c9f4dc8bf975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:50:38 - 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宋署長有請理事長跟宋署長欸 委員長你好 委員長你好 委員長"},{"start":17.788,"end":37.208,"text":"因為少子化的問題我相信是現在是大家都很清楚那一年一年延減而且很嚴重那我相信台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案這個要是說以目前來看"},{"start":38.83,"end":49.558,"text":"除了可以減輕父母養育兒女的負擔更可以給18歲這個青年有低桶金來面對未來的挑戰能夠有更多元的選擇一舉兩得"},{"start":53.567,"end":70.794,"text":"用於未來 反正是職業訓練 進修 創業等等我認為都應該是利益良善包括我們現在美國 英國 加拿大 新加坡他們也都有這些方案可以來供我們學習那個市長你認不認同"},{"start":72.816,"end":88.405,"text":"報告委員我想非常感佩委員對於這個問題的關心那我想少子女化確實是現在我們的國安問題我們應該要來嚴肅面對我想我們都只要有好的政策我們都願意來聆聽認不認同報告委員因為"},{"start":93.942,"end":108.894,"text":"就是剛剛委員有提到英國的例子英國在2005年開辦之後出現了一個問題2011年就停辦所以這裡面有兩個問題第一個就是說裁員必須要先確定我想這是一個有前軀之鑑"},{"start":109.795,"end":128.052,"text":"另外第二個就是說這裡面我們也不希望就是說倉促上路之後造成這一個保護這一個中斷像英國就是後來2011年中斷所以我想這個整個就是利益良善我們都樂見其成可是就是說相關的配套可能要更加小心其實"},{"start":129.033,"end":146.568,"text":"我认为说这个里面在修法内容里面还可以去调这个要是说我们整个国家像过去超增每一年都那么多而且几年下来一兆八千多亿所以说那时候在野党才要求说"},{"start":147.409,"end":167.262,"text":"每個人就是普發一萬那我認為說當然我後面還會再問到我認為說你認不認同這樣的做法嗎你不敢答還不敢答你照理講是你就不要承諾就由部長來就好了對不對"},{"start":168.763,"end":196.554,"text":"因為臺灣未來的整個帳戶特別條例草案要是順利的話當然希望能夠這個各界都來共襄盛舉引入更多的資源來這個臺灣未來帳戶的基金共同來照顧我們的下一代因為現在少子化很嚴重去年才出生率才十萬七千多人是沒錯今年會更少對不對那特別條例第26條有提到主管機關"},{"start":197.714,"end":223.665,"text":"得接受可以接受各界的捐款用於台灣未來賬戶基金甚至於就是專款專用那我請問那個宋署長如果一條例草案假設未來條文三讀通過台積電要是有捐款到台灣未來賬戶裡面我們不管說一千萬兩千萬一億兩億是否可以全額來抵稅可不可以"},{"start":224.085,"end":237.815,"text":"報告委員如果這個基金本身是政府的專戶就相當於對政府捐贈這目前所設的36條規定他就可以全額列報捐贈費用捐贈多少就抵稅多少如果是對政府的話"},{"start":239.136,"end":263.487,"text":"當然就是這樣子那這個底稅有沒有這個金額的上限如果對政府沒有金額上限所以說這個就是很好的一個方式因為有很多甚至於這個連戰他的夫人他說他要把他自己的財產全部都要圈出去他在生日的時候全部就這樣宣布"},{"start":264.607,"end":287.538,"text":"你說其實要捐的人還是很多啦並不是沒有以這個勞保基金109到113年度近5年來整個平均的績效為例收益率平均差不多8.94%最新一次勞保基金績效的公告114年11月底收益率來達到13.4%此外還有114年11月底"},{"start":294.041,"end":318.494,"text":"這個勞保基金這個收益率也有13.697從上述這些資料來看政府基金投資報酬率平均都是6%以上似乎有很高機率可以達成那本席理解說整個投資當然有高有低景氣起起伏伏那我請問那個理事長"},{"start":319.554,"end":347.611,"text":"對於政府基金投資報酬率平均每年6%以上是不是可能的任務還是穩健操作都可以達到目標您的看法呢包委員當然就是陳副委員剛剛所說的這個投資都有風險高高低低啦最近當然台股當然擁擠但是這個我們也不敢完全確保所以我想還是要從比較長期穩健的角度來思考"},{"start":348.683,"end":364.226,"text":"因此這個市長是依照特別條例草案計畫第一筆資金5萬元政府每年每人存1萬元到12歲以6%報酬率來計算18歲後預估整個資金將來可以到33.9萬那可用於這個青年的就學就業職業訓練創業購屋自備款等等"},{"start":376.009,"end":387.348,"text":"那我請問勞動部對於上述這個投資報酬估算是否會認為目標難以達成還是怎麼樣勞動部今天有沒有人來"},{"start":397.743,"end":417.017,"text":"主席 還有跟委員回答一下其實我們基金運用在投資上其實我們長期穩健的所以非常感謝委員剛剛對我們的肯定其實我們在長期的目標是有達到委員剛剛提到的有達到嘛 對啊要是照這樣操作其實也操作得很好可以肯定那要是有這樣的報酬我認為說其實從過去幾年下來"},{"start":422.921,"end":444.879,"text":"你們的整個基金的操作運作我認為都很好而且也受到我們很多勞工朋友的肯定啊對不對所以說整個台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案啦希望能透過專戶的設立來減輕整個父母的壓力投資我們的下一代以青年的未來以減緩子女"},{"start":448.514,"end":472.228,"text":"這個少子女化的整個情況那投資台灣未來的人才之培育如果開戶人喪失我國國籍那個次長開戶人喪失我國國籍本身認為自然不具有這個提領結親由國家補助啟動金來撥補款以及其他收益的資格你的看法呢"},{"start":473.237,"end":478.727,"text":"是 我那個 尊重委員的一個意見我覺得這個尊重委員的意見 謝謝我認為你一點擔當都沒有"},{"start":481.277,"end":505.14,"text":"今天是這個案子過才有啊對不對 案子沒有過根本一點但我是認為你一個身為一個次長喔很多事情你竟然要承擔部長留下來給你來做詢答你就是本身要具有說我今天yes no分得很清楚然後這個案子過我們就照這樣做"},{"start":506.221,"end":532.91,"text":"这个才是担当嘛我们是针对问题探讨问题怎么去解决问题嘛对不对现在少子化的问题确实是存在啊不然的话怎么会提这个问题呢对不对提这个法案呢所以说本席认为如果开户人在未成年期间如果犯刑案刑事案件等等比如涉及杀人啦患毒啦诈欺啦性侵等等重大刑案制止"},{"start":533.57,"end":550.976,"text":"的後續也不應該享有政府補助的資源這樣你認不認同不認同還是不敢答我們認知到也尊重委員的意見對啦你什麼都不敢你等於是有跟沒有一樣好啦我就不問了啦謝謝非常感謝委員的指教謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167024","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167024","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce07b5732c430e32f8ae6ea9f55fbd6b87561002d6f89771a84e588b5cd50b116635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:34:22 - 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謝謝是 黃委員好部長好我們針對這個報導裡面"},{"start":19.471,"end":40.781,"text":"就是我們我國明明可以自產的一個彈藥卻要對外採購並這個延伸了非常不少的一個爭議國人很多關注那我想請教國防部在15億元的子彈的標案"},{"start":41.707,"end":56.992,"text":"我們早能自製外購而惹疫所以我就想請問黎欽這個問題金倍局在兩棟武廠是我國清兵器及各式槍枝彈藥的生產的重鎮"},{"start":57.952,"end":77.562,"text":"但是为了配合高雄市政府亚洲新湾区计划,把原先位于前镇区的两栋武场搬至到大树区、陵园营区、大树北营区及光复营区,并且规划建盖弹药生产线。"},{"start":78.362,"end":102.297,"text":"但是國防部在112年的報告205廠在完成搬遷之後那預計在去年的114年的12月以前就能夠恢復那甚至提升產能但是為了工程的這個延宕到現在的子彈的生產性還無法的恢復205廠什麼時候才能恢復子彈生產"},{"start":106.26,"end":128.617,"text":"跟委員報告我們原來在光中營區的我們是106年我們就開始做了一個的搬遷原本是只有一條生產線貢獻我們把這個舊的生產線會搬到我們新的一個大宿營區同時偽中科院做FM四種彈藥都把它分開就是5.56 7.62 90公里手槍跟50機槍"},{"start":132.82,"end":152.834,"text":"納根委員報告 5.56的這條生產線在今年的3月份會正式的量產 現在在做小批量的測試7.62 9公里手槍 跟5公里機槍是9元那你們整體的規劃裡面 本來是去年的114年的12月以前嘛而且你們所有的之前的報告都非常的完整"},{"start":153.895,"end":171.292,"text":"那今天你們理由在哪裡今天子彈的生產線都出了問題了你們現在在覆蓋了所有一切的問題又把說因為怎麼樣因為怎麼樣那你們之前的計畫都已經報告的非常好啊對不對 理由都是你們講的國外人沒有辦法交代"},{"start":172.489,"end":200.585,"text":"大家都會對你們產生質疑所以這個不是你們要講的嘛今天為什麼是114年的時候本來你們12月底以前就要全部那誰歸咎是你們歸咎還是歸咎了市政府市政府代差代理而且你們無賞無賞撥用給他們使用那應該市政府高雄市政府要負責啊你們為什麼不追究這個高雄市政府然後呢"},{"start":203.834,"end":219.692,"text":"跟委員說明這塊土地當時是有長波用給高市府帶菜帶件是由高雄市政府那既然未完工未完成那是不是你們要歸咎高雄市政府而不是你們來承擔"},{"start":221.735,"end":237.969,"text":"跟委員說明我們跟高市府的新工處我們都是每月甚至我們每兩週都有召開一次的會議那是建議之前的疫情然後的工期然後所以真的是工近有稍微一點的延誤後面都把它趕上來了"},{"start":239.81,"end":256.076,"text":"本來就是我們本來就可以自產自銷而且還要外銷今天我們還要跟人家買子彈我們明明205廠的生產線具有專業而且它的生產絕對是足夠"},{"start":257.156,"end":268.387,"text":"而且甚至可以外銷現在就是因為我們為了配合高雄市政府的這個亞洲新灣區然後他們由他們負責代材代件那我們無償不用給他們使用然後簽件給他們在那個地方發展"},{"start":276.674,"end":303.961,"text":"結果今天的責任歸屬你們不但沒有跟高雄市政府來討論到底責任歸屬是你們還是高雄市政府你們要承擔還是高雄市政府我們現在的釐清就是這個問題啊那你要告訴給國人嘛到底是你們要負責還是高雄市政府你們既然都無賞不用給他們帶菜帶件那就是由他們來負責嘛 是不是"},{"start":304.861,"end":317.092,"text":"你回答我這個問題就好了當委員報告這一塊土地是有償撥用預算是給我們可是工程是由高雄市政府代菜代件這個相對的我們兩方都有責任來共同承擔好你現在的問題出來了嗎"},{"start":320.367,"end":344.746,"text":"對不對高雄不能夠推卸責任你們應該就要從這個角度裡面去追究該付的承擔金貝吉你們自己本身你所承擔的是你們之前規劃延宕延誤你們本來就有責任來對外跟國人交代那另外也是我想請問一下中科院"},{"start":350.142,"end":363.608,"text":"205廠的彈藥新建的產線當初是唯有中科院辦理對不對是好請問中科院長新建產線新建生產線的部分你們是否一約辦理"},{"start":367.16,"end":383.329,"text":"的確所有的產線我們都是依照跟軍備局的合約來辦理但是因為剛剛講的土建工程的延宕所以我們的相關裝備和產線沒有辦法依照原本合約的時間來復現我根據了解關於新建產線的各項這個設備的採購"},{"start":388.294,"end":416.073,"text":"中科院簽約的時間大約在108年到114年間所有設備也都已經購入你們都已經購入照道理講你們沒有責任可是責任在高雄市政府你們一樣你們一樣好好的跟高雄市政府來追討追問責任的歸屬你們不要完全去承擔這樣的責任可以嗎喔 收到"},{"start":418.325,"end":446.823,"text":"跟委員報告 我想第一個我們剛剛就被局長已經說明了在今年都會來逐步恢復產能是第一點 第二點有關這個四五大家再見的部分呢他的這個是不是因為疫情的這個影響我們還要再跟高雄市政府我想這邊還要來進行相關的了解我想這個部分我們都一定會把他理清楚部長不管是COVID-19"},{"start":448.089,"end":470.145,"text":"我們在金貝啟在這個過程裡面的進程進度也應該要跟國人來做一個說明而不是發生之後我們再來亡羊補牢解釋說因為什麼樣因為什麼樣應該不是我們國防部的態度也不是金貝啟的態度你們要有責任是對國人交代"},{"start":471.041,"end":493.912,"text":"我們就應該坦蕩蕩的把問題講出來而不是問題出來子彈的問題生產線為什麼會委外的因素產生了國人非常不瞭解的就是因為這個原因啊我們本來就可以自製生產的而且還是外銷的都可以所以這個就是我們要對外要理清清楚 好不好"},{"start":496.084,"end":518.961,"text":"剛剛有跟幾位委員報告的就是說因為我們當時估算的這個彈藥的這個訓練因為我們現在因為義務役的關係還有教召訓練的增加然後還有這些實戰化的訓練所以整個的訓練的用量已經增加2.5倍所以這個部分當然也是我們現在要緊急籌購的一個原因"},{"start":519.321,"end":534.998,"text":"所以我們現在徵兵不力已經三年多了我想說你們趕快把徵兵的這一些能夠讓這些有對我們國軍有信心讓增加我們的兵力那另外就是我想請問一下部長你的檢法的思維"},{"start":535.979,"end":553.997,"text":"上次我們特別有提到習小新委員跟我一關心國軍文件新的保防規範因為我們都收到來自一部隊的龐大的抱怨跟不滿緊接到這個國會國軍的士氣非常的影響"},{"start":554.878,"end":583.36,"text":"而且也造成了負面的這樣的一個效益所以我想請問一下如果部長在上次說可以調整可以檢討你們我相信你們部會裡面也都有在討論那討論的如何調整找到了一個保房和作業的效益的平衡點嗎請問一下部長你來回答一下第一點當然就是您看到的就是說我們有會診了這個各方的意見之後"},{"start":584.601,"end":607.598,"text":"就這個屬於對不特定人經過審任沒有涉及國家機密或者是公務機密的部分那屬於公開的資訊的話我們就在夜鎖來標示但是我要跟委員報告就是說我們整個資料治理這個整個在數位化的作業環境之下所有有關這些文書的這個儲存"},{"start":610.801,"end":631.955,"text":"傳遞跟運用在這一個不同的這個分級制度之下他覺得是有必要的因為相關什麼樣子的人能夠看到什麼樣子的一個密等的資料還有在不同的網域之間能夠有什麼樣子的一個資料輸入我想這個都是我們資料治理跟整個精準"},{"start":633.793,"end":642.56,"text":"標示的一個最基本的背後的一個原因那如果我們不這樣做沒有辦法跟美方對接我們也沒有辦法共享資訊主席再給我一點幾分鐘"},{"start":645.874,"end":666.03,"text":"講到美方,上週你說明的新措施是一個比照美方的規範以利雙方的交流,但是本身認為即使美金的規範,值得參考我們兩國國軍各有各自的一個風格,外國的月亮不見得是圓的"},{"start":666.67,"end":689.762,"text":"所以國軍也不一定要照單前收應該適度的調整以便更好的融入國軍那所以希望能夠部長你能發揮你的檢法的思維然後真正的簡化這個文書減少無效的作業那另外就是我們在這一次的F16的新興飛官的搜救的情況"},{"start":690.802,"end":719.624,"text":"我們海巡署的弟兄有很多的抱怨那對於搜救的過程裡面有很多的有三個質疑我想請教這三個質疑裡面那搜救的方向錯誤認為海巡未考量黑潮的影響只是在失事的時候點以南海域搜尋措施搜救的關鍵第一個你們只派了100噸級的到黑海去搜救而不派"},{"start":720.945,"end":736.895,"text":"一千噸級的那是什麼一回事那另外是還有很重要的就是通聯通聯是第一個發生之後完顯的所有的掃描跟通聯是非常重要"},{"start":737.515,"end":756.267,"text":"那是不是缺乏了直接的通聯那只能使用國際通用海事異險頻道CH16作為指揮的指管頻道佔用國際海事的異險資源以上這些問題你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":757.228,"end":770.963,"text":"我首先先簡單回應一下就是說剛剛您講那個精準機密的核四部我想我們現在大家都在調試的過程當中我們會陸續收整這個包括官兵還有各界的一個意見我們會來持續來檢討那我們也會以開放的態度來進行"},{"start":776.465,"end":795.462,"text":"那至於有關這個提到我想海軍來先做回答是 委員好 首先跟委員報告我們以本這個救人第一所以我們在事件不幸事件發生之後我們所有的兵力是直接到現場到現場之後我們就會按照小頓數的就是在沿岸"},{"start":796.417,"end":822.245,"text":"大頓數重大陷阱 現在不是嘛因為離岸較近的海域應該是100噸級的離岸以外靠近黑草的因為它的風浪太大應該是1000噸級的來去做搜救啊所以你們海巡官兵裡面的抱怨就在這裡啊"},{"start":823.525,"end":849.472,"text":"報委員 我們的確是禁岸就是35噸跟100噸然後比較遠的都是派遣中大型所以這一次你們只派的到黑草那一帶是幾百噸的都是1000噸跟海軍3000噸但問題是是不是100噸 1000噸沒有嘛沒有 沿岸沒有沿岸所以你們在搜集的過程也應該就第一個在外海已經出了多少次的在花東這一帶"},{"start":850.592,"end":877.953,"text":"一旦發生應該你們第一個概念就是第一我們先派一千噸幾的先派出去近海的一百噸來作為全面性的做一個搜救跟委員報告就是說確實是我們將小型的艦艇在近岸中大型的在外海共同事務這個報導說把這個近岸的部分派到外面去這一件事情跟事實"},{"start":878.553,"end":890.774,"text":"你們要調查清楚 這個是很多你們自己本身的海巡署回報的這樣的一個抱怨我想說大家做一個參考 做一個檢討 好不好是好 謝謝主席 以上"}]}},{"id":"167030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0b90aba88e3f7353ae6ea9f55fbd6b87589ddda9214312ca712974bf4722aa1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"10:01:50 - 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謝謝主席我們請法務部徐次長跟司法院的王副秘書長 謝謝委員長好次長今天跟你討論一下刑事訴訟法第101條關於這一個羈押室友這個有同仁提案要把這個勾串共犯或證人之餘把他拿掉那這一個部分"},{"start":38.953,"end":65.268,"text":"這個可不可以再請次長有沒有一些比較大的這一個通案你們把人不羈押以後放走以後會發生什麼樣的事情謝謝委員那我們現在目前看到的包括台積電工程的洩密案還有凱凱保母虐待兒童案還有我們最近的像跨國炸雞就台版的柬埔寨案還有軍官"},{"start":66.729,"end":90.201,"text":"塗抹駕駛軍機叛逃案還有毒梟議員販毒案這些很多的案子我們一定是有把主嫌犯積壓起來讓他沒有機會跟共犯或者是其他證人來做篡證這個一旦出去的話整個案子的偵查作為一定會受到影響那這個對檢察官來說這個放他出去你們會影響你們偵辦的作為嘛那這個"},{"start":95.253,"end":100.154,"text":"有沒有哪一些是你們也把人家放了結果後來真的出事了不是你們去跟法官申請喔是你們自己的檢察官問完之後就讓他走了然後走了之後就真的那個傢伙就跑了或者那個傢伙就去勾串了那勾串完之後相關的這一個共犯或者證人就跑了"},{"start":123.26,"end":135.728,"text":"我們目前在執行上對這個都很慎重那也都會得到法官的支持所以如果像類似這種要篡證我們有提出具體的事證的說明的話法官也都會支持我們"},{"start":137.421,"end":162.351,"text":"如果委員需要一些比較具體的個案我們是可以提出來不是問個案 我是說這個中間也許會有一些空窗啦有些是這樣 有些是當時沒有發現還有其他的共犯所以一旦讓他交保出去了以後則是沒有羈押他出去勾串的那個證人是我們沒有掌握到共犯沒有掌握到那勾串那個證人沒有掌握到他可能就跑了嘛會跑"},{"start":164.26,"end":189.614,"text":"跑了以後啊 你們就要站在這裡被罵了對對對 那我想到還有一個案子就是不過那裡都積壓起來因為大部分的都會配合我們對 就是如果你們把人放了然後就出事了然後呢 你們就要站在那裡被罵了經常這樣嘛然後又說為什麼放人嘛 對不對好 那我現在請這個司法院的這個副秘書長"},{"start":192.339,"end":211.776,"text":"你贊成這個修法嗎這個我們今天的報告裡頭有提就是說我們事實上是持保留意見的因為事實上世界上各國呢就是說有關於羈押要件一個是保全人嘛就是說被告不要跑掉還有一個是保全證據那那個證據我們都知道證據有物證"},{"start":212.717,"end":233.667,"text":"那也有那個人證譬如說你就把那個通聯這些東西手機的這些資料把它銷毀掉了嘛那還有一個就是人跟人之間的那個串證嘛那串證有各種方式一個是你可能有性的就是去串證那一個是敵性的譬如說像比較那個嚴重的這一種性侵或是暴力犯罪的話"},{"start":234.767,"end":258.976,"text":"那這個加害人他可能又會再一次用暴力的方式來就是恐嚇威脅這些那個被害人比較弱勢的那個被害人那所以呢就是說世界各國我們去看就是說幾乎就是說像我們講歐盟國家好了歐盟幾乎是全部就是通通都有這個保全就是說這個人真的這個部分的羈押原因啊"},{"start":259.935,"end":282.904,"text":"對 那我說 那有沒有現在委員會提案說這個叫兒少有關的預防性羈押就是說他特別列出了幾種就是說我們現在的規定裡頭特別列出這種特別列出來會不會越列越多預防性羈押部分是不是對就是不是勾串那個證人那個部分對 預防性羈押會不會越列越多"},{"start":284.382,"end":309.554,"text":"我想就是說這是隨著就是說這一種那個整個那個犯罪形態的那個眼鏡像有一些像身衛身衛這一種那個的犯罪這都是後來新出來的嘛那如果說有這一種新那個犯罪的話在預防性羈押有必要的時候這個當然就要練那我想他最重要還是在一個必要性的一個控管上面OK 好那兩位請"},{"start":312.096,"end":317.94,"text":"接下來我們請這個考試院 牛肉祕書長跟全序部的施部長委員長這兩天啊 新聞看到說你們現在在訂算嘛算說會減多少的公務人員的退休的數字會改變嘛 有這些的計算可是你也有說這個重新算的時候啊可能還要花幾個月的時間來訂算你的意思是說沒辦法讓人算就對了"},{"start":342.444,"end":364.296,"text":"用人齁 一個個案要很久的啦一個個案要很久的對 我們以前的經驗就是而且人 因為我們 報告委員喔我們整個部裡面就是一個師的一個科在負責啦喔不是我們整個部在做這個事情嘛那你們現在用系統來做我們就是 寫程式對 寫程式 重新在廠商寫程式然後要經過測試 因為這不可以不對嘛你這樣啦 這樣"},{"start":367.697,"end":392.3,"text":"現在立法會如果鄉長再把你蓋起來你以為還要寫程序我們就是只要退休的東西就是因為它是非常精細的那算得準嗎連一格就不可以差嘛因為拿到人審定的會比較減一格那我請問一下這個程式弄完之後這個公務員可以自己算嗎沒有還是我們要發出審定函啦沒有啦他可以自己算嗎"},{"start":394.346,"end":418.047,"text":"你那算的東西就公開給大家看啊不過目前那個因為是內部的資料系統完以後因為主要都離寬了算政府 我們目前沒有這個沒有啦 要個人自己輸入啊可能我們有一個系統是另外一個如果你是按照現在的那個制度的那個退休金喔沒有改以前的啦我們只要提供他們自己方便試算但是那都不是正式的啦正式還是依賴我們啦我一件事這樣啦"},{"start":420.549,"end":446.764,"text":"大家喔 公開透明啦 你們啊 點點啊 怎麼算的公務人員 都看得到他就輸入他自己的資料 他看不見別人的啦可是他看得到他自己的啦這個有辦法嗎我這個 我回去了解 如果我們系統都做好了啦因為你系統也是你設定的嘛對啦 都做好了啦 要不要說讓個人可以自己去查詢這個他的一個一個狀況 好 我了解啦好 來 這個秘書長"},{"start":447.847,"end":475.996,"text":"您這個 上禮拜考試院院會有同櫃說要去釋憲嘛 是啊 叫這個 什麼程式 這沒有衝突沒有衝突 我們就是 這個是兩件事情兩件事情 就它的核限性尋求這個憲法法庭的裁判那另外一方面 但是因為法律竟然已經生效上路了還是要依法去做這個執行那現在這個審定工作就是執行的第一個步驟你也要準備就對了 對準備之後 如果是釋憲說這違憲的"},{"start":478.141,"end":503.578,"text":"那這個就依照這個釋憲的結果來處理就停啊對 如果要 如果釋憲的有結果我們就依照不管他 看他是合憲還是違憲都會依照他的結果去做處理好 最後我是建議這個施部長我剛才說的那個事情就是說能夠當事人他自己輸入他自己的北京資料嘛都在那邊放唸他都用他自己唸嘛算算的 他總是每天看他的數字也開心啊"},{"start":507.725,"end":535.61,"text":"要不然你這樣審定出來 用早期的數字出來我跟你說 你退役金就是多少有時候要用到個位數去他也有重返簿 因為那些都電腦算的要告訴人家 我們政府就算是虧欠他這個事情 因為系統的程式也是你們設定的啦要輸入的參數跟變數也都是你們設定的啦這塊回去研究看看 有可行嗎"},{"start":536.789,"end":550.939,"text":"因為已退的人他本來以前就有一張審定函啦至於我們要重新變更這審定函啦重新變更我們都弄好了來 再了解一下印作的一個狀況有沒有可能性啦 好不好因為他自己也會生啦網路也會幫他生啦網路有很多好事之徒嘛他會幫他生 我在講喔你的剩剩財喔 還會給多少給多少到時候你 你的電腦剩財 減一萬塊每一個個案都來找你"},{"start":565.845,"end":569.747,"text":"說不對 我們這個省財這協會幫我們省財就這樣全市部幫我省財怎麼這樣這一個大家計算的基礎這都公開就是在程式上怎麼讓個人可以自己輸入個人的資訊之後裡面內部的看這種資訊怎麼做資安以後能夠把這個事情讓當事人可以自己先試算然後可能有一些誤差那誤差"},{"start":594.309,"end":600.412,"text":"這個大家都能夠接受 但是有時候要查太多有時候是你的系統設計出問題也不一定有時候是這個當事人 誤解因為網路上現在有時候說了說了斷到不要有時候誤解 都有可能現在也有退休公務人員因為說要退縮到很早很早以前這個網路有人也有人會這樣說雖然提案的這一個委員 去年提案的委員一再解釋 一再解釋說沒有要回到最早啦"},{"start":624.779,"end":644.886,"text":"但是公務員總是會算啊如果回到最早以兒傳兒不夠買都不會太少好不好所以這個計算的方式啊也去研究看看在資安的保全的這樣的狀況之下讓個人來能夠有這樣的了解我來跟同仁 紀總來研究看看好 謝謝多方要考量 好 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大家好本席在今天提出了刑事訴訟法第108條修正的草案回應我國羈押制度長期存在的一個結構性的問題也就是羈押期過長這整個羈押過長的狀態已經逐漸偏離了例外手段的定位而且有一種刑罰化之餘"},{"start":30.103,"end":35.146,"text":"那麼現行的第108條關於羈押期間的規定是從民國17年制定以來將近100年沒有修正那麼依照現行的法制羈押中羈押最長可以達2個月然後審判中可達3個月並得延長但是現在整個刑事訴訟程序也日益複雜那麼案件審理的期程拉長"},{"start":53.698,"end":71.28,"text":"那麼實務上羈押核准率已經也高達了八成以上那麼羈押變成不再是例外而漸漸成為常態那導致被告在未經定罪前及長期受到剝奪人身的自由實質呢是侵害無罪推定的一個原則"},{"start":72.361,"end":94.515,"text":"那麼依照公民與政治權利國際公約第九條第三項以及聯合國人權事務委員會一般性意見第35條羈押應該僅限於具體且必要之情形被羈押者應於合理期間受審判或獲釋那麼我國已經將公約國內法化那麼羈押制度應該要與國際人權標準來接軌"},{"start":98.718,"end":125.697,"text":"所以本案在這個將偵查中那個羈押過長的期間由兩個月來縮短為一個月那麼審判中由三個月來縮短為兩個月並且同步縮短延長羈押之期間落實比例原則與最小侵害原則那麼請各位同仁能夠支持本案讓國家在追溯犯罪的同時也要嚴守人身自由與無罪推論的憲法界限以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167042","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167042","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce08ad81d49aedc4be7b4bfe832d32782da7fca8e6801c49bdd8c09dfcc218e895f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:57:26 - 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我們有請顧立雄顧部長請顧部長議員好部長好那我想一開始的時候呢還是來跟您關心一下這個F16墜毀的這個事件喔那因為有一些內容在記者會的時候沒有被詢問到那後續呢也有不少的這個國軍弟兄在問"},{"start":26.144,"end":42.472,"text":"所以我想先問一下有關於這個MMC的訊號異常那有報休記錄這個部分在1月7號的記者會上面有向外界說明說清查近半年的情況是沒有任何MMC的故障情形的"},{"start":43.12,"end":62.647,"text":"那麼呢 會討論這個是因為非官在逝世之前有呼叫說這個MMC有故障的問題所以大家針對MMC的部分呢那就有在做詢問嘛那所以第一個問題我想說為什麼我們是清查會用半年為期而不是一年為期啊就是說這個時間當時是媒體問的嗎還是說我們自己訂定的呢"},{"start":67.465,"end":89.77,"text":"包委員我們並沒有去設定這個三個月半年那一年兩年其實我們從兩年的資料都去撈全機隊的這個故障我們都有去撈他的資料兩年都撈都沒有嗎可是我這邊看二月不是沒有不是沒有包委員那我問一下這台這台飛機在二月的時候是不是最起碼有三次的MMC的派休為公沒有"},{"start":90.73,"end":112.958,"text":"派工維修六拐洞洞這架飛機就是從出廠它是去年10月以後才出廠到失事當天沒有一次MMC的故障所以它沒有任何一次MMC的維修紀錄所以這個派修它可能是在其他的F16上面有MMC的維修紀錄但不是這架其他的飛機"},{"start":114.499,"end":130.672,"text":"陸陸續續都有這個現象因為整個機隊一定會有MNC故障但是針對這一架飛機從出廠之後到失事當天沒有一次總共有35次的維修紀錄沒有一次MNC故障所以我剛剛講的二月這個部分它可能是針對其他的飛機那不是在這一架嗎"},{"start":131.853,"end":148.019,"text":"那但是我另外要問一下那導致這個抬頭顯示器多功能螢幕上面會有無法顯示或是黑屏的狀況應該不是只有MNC失效才會發生它也有其他的可能失靈的這個相關的一些配件都有可能嗎"},{"start":148.619,"end":166.321,"text":"那是因為它呼叫的時候談到了M&C所以我們特別關注一下那M&C的在這個包含這架以及整個機隊的這個維修情況是如何那也謝謝您剛剛做說明那我問一下這個EGI也就是我們的這個整合的GPS整合式的GPS"},{"start":167.162,"end":195.521,"text":"它在發生異常的時候是不是也一樣會有無法取得正確的導航資訊的問題那比方說在HUD的這種數位地圖上面那可能會有不合理的跳動跟飄移對於我們這種在能見度差夜晚淨雲的海上環境上面產生風險的問題包委員會那我問一下1月4號的時候就這架飛機有沒有派攻EGIFL有有對不對是"},{"start":196.499,"end":207.256,"text":"好 我再講一下墜海的前兩天1月4號的時候有派工整合式的GPS就是這一架六七東東 對吧是那所以說上面因為"},{"start":209.006,"end":236.027,"text":"新上位他是回報說他的高度一直往下掉那沒有狀態可以參考改正所以未來我們等到一段時間之後那在進行這個實事調查的時候除了剛才講的因為他呼叫的內容講到MMC嘛但是在EGI的部分在墜落的兩天前有發生過EGI的fail有做過派工維修那這方面會不會進行著手調查"},{"start":236.967,"end":254.254,"text":"會 包委員 這個我們調查的方向針對他的故障情況會影響到導航的部分我們都是我們偵查的一個重點好 謝謝你喔 調查的一個重點那 我相信我很謝謝你很坦誠的在這邊講因為我覺得大家對於這件事情的態度都是一樣的那 有問題我們就找出問題"},{"start":256.075,"end":274.446,"text":"那能夠坦誠來談到就是說每一架飛機它的這個情況那我覺得這個態度也會讓更多現在在飛的這些飛官他感到是安心的所以非常感謝把這個事情講出來那也希望接下來的相關的調查我們都是用這樣正確的態度去面對它"},{"start":276.167,"end":296.333,"text":"那再來 謝謝 謝謝您那接下來我要問一下是因為我們今天談到的是這個軍備的部分嘛那有關於彈藥籌貨的規劃我們一定是支持國防自主的那在國內能夠生產大量而且便宜的彈藥產能呢 這個能夠符合我們的戰備需求一定是重要的"},{"start":296.733,"end":318.325,"text":"不過我們知道在產線上面其實都是這個約聘僱的人員在做這些組裝啊一些這個處理嘛所以今天想要特別跟您談一下我們的這個約聘僱人員的這個問題首先這個我想要問一下部長我們國軍的約聘僱人員您知不知道有最低薪資的相關規定是如何規定的"},{"start":319.437,"end":345.395,"text":"有需要協助的話可以請相關的單位來給部長一些協助但你們可能走路速度要快一點好不好因為時間很有限我問的問題是我們約聘僱在國軍裡面的最低薪資的規定其實呢是所有中央政府的這個約聘僱人員都是一樣的一致的好來請說跟委員報告目前的"},{"start":346.325,"end":360.675,"text":"是相關的薪資規定都是按照這個跟一般公共交通器官是一樣一樣啊一樣怎樣啊我是問你怎樣不是一樣啊當然一樣啊廢話能不一樣嗎"},{"start":363.49,"end":381.512,"text":"相關的資料我們請支援室來說明一下來說明一下吧我剩兩分鐘的時間我還有很多問題要問你們目前我們孤兒的話薪水大概是三萬八千多元三萬八千多元我想的是他的這個規定沒關係我們直接看"},{"start":382.967,"end":403.055,"text":"我們呢113年12月20號行政院就有發函國防部我剛剛為什麼要問是因為你沒有收到這個函式的通知所以我才這樣問不然其實我都會直接講114年齁你可以看到約僱工友約用人員等基層員工他的月薪應該要高於最低薪資的1.1倍"},{"start":405.377,"end":431.834,"text":"1.1倍所以呢我算給大家聽齁在這個2026年之前呢應該是31449元那在今年開始的話是32450元那您剛講到38000我很懷疑各位知不知道在我們的我們先不跳下一張齁在我們的軍備局裡面401場跟205場真的大家有約聘過人員由領到38000元的"},{"start":435.056,"end":461.541,"text":"薪資嗎 約聘雇人員來講一下好不好我們約聘雇人員的薪資是三萬八千元嗎如剛剛所述各位委員報告我們生產製造中心他第一個他每個月報的他每個月就是領的剛剛我們行政院所規定的約聘用另外他有額外的生產獎金每年最高可以領到六個月以當年他的盈利每年 那他什麼時候發的"},{"start":463.101,"end":491.049,"text":"中秋節發一次 過年發一次不要開我玩笑了隔壁是律師欸 你要不要問一下律師的意見這個是在講說我每一個月的月薪你跟我講說他中秋節的時候會發獎金這是兩件事情喔對 所以呢 所以我要問的事情是我們在401場 205場大家領的是剛剛所說的38000元嗎有沒有領到最低薪資的1.1倍呢來 我給你看一下薪資單好不好"},{"start":492.028,"end":518.229,"text":"往下 來這是我們軍備局的401場的薪資單114年的8月剛剛告訴大家了算下來應該要領到多少錢才合理31449元是最低薪資吧可是他的這個勞保級距你可以看他的薪資單上面是30050不要告訴我只差一點這是合法的問題我們國家做事情要合法"},{"start":518.729,"end":545.939,"text":"再來剛剛很多人在問205場領多少錢呢有29590塊錢的也有31010元的沒有領到第一沒有所謂剛剛講到的大家都領到38000喔第二他低於行政院函式的我們的約聘僱人員要是最低基本薪資的1.1倍所以這部分應該我強烈的要求必須要調整部長請問一下您的意見"},{"start":548.254,"end":568.841,"text":"您的這個資料我今天是第一次看到才了解我想我們還要下去了解一下相關的這些薪資的規範以及他們實際發放薪資的一個狀況其實我告訴你行政院早就發函給軍備局了所以部長您在這個事情不需要看到薪資單才要知道來我們下一張團影片在"},{"start":571.414,"end":585.031,"text":"114年的1月22號的時候我剛剛的表頭是主旨他發這個函給這個我們軍備局講說你的基層員工月薪要高於最低工資的1.1倍"},{"start":586.713,"end":604.248,"text":"那他為什麼會發這個函呢你可以看到第三點這邊他就有要求你們要檢視修正所屬聘僱人員勞動契約工作項目跟薪資以高於最低工資1.1倍的標準來給薪嘛"},{"start":605.356,"end":620.076,"text":"那所以什麼意思什麼意思很清楚的是其實其實你們並不是內部不知道這個情況不然不會發這個寒所以我要告訴您的事情是說這個已經好一陣子了所以"},{"start":621.226,"end":645.686,"text":"合法 合理 符合最低的要求的這個規定1.1倍 它應該要讓我們每一個場的同仁都能夠領到而不是告訴我說因為中秋節有發獎金 它不對喔它這裡 我們這裡寫的是月薪喔 不是含獎金之後喔所以不要拿這個東西來搪塞我那我希望可以好好的下去檢討"},{"start":646.667,"end":654.559,"text":"因為約聘僱人員他確實他們是我們產線上面也非常重要的國軍非常重要的其中一份子部長可以嗎"},{"start":655.746,"end":679.401,"text":"因為這個星之每月的月星的星之結構你剛剛秀出來我還不是很了解所以我想我下去了解它整個月星的星之的結構你需要了解一下結構還有就是有不會只有這一兩位啦我剛剛秀出的有一個人兩個人401的兩個人跟205的兩個人嘛光是我秀出的星之蛋就是有四位了"},{"start":679.801,"end":707.552,"text":"所以實際上我所了解的情況是超過的那我沒有薪資但我不會拿上來當成證據來在這裡跟您質詢但是呢有更多的約聘僱的人員他們是呢真的沒有領到1.1倍然後但他們就反正也就吞下去了想說反正呢兩萬九就兩萬九好了但是我覺得這是不對的事情所以請你們全面的去做一個檢討請問這個檢討需要多少時間能夠給我一個正確的答覆"},{"start":708.735,"end":724.021,"text":"跟委員報告 委員講的我們回去會做檢視因為我們的所有的基金聘僱的都是以盈餘的大水庫來支應我們給你兩個禮拜的時間我們來做分析來跟你做回報好 兩個禮拜嘛 謝謝麻煩檢討一下 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"167041","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167041","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce028d89ce0c9debd17307671192a7c66aa7fca8e6801c49bdd5e42fc9f2fe0e8b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:56:07 - 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謝謝主席 謝謝王雲喔好 那我請呂次還有我們勞保局的白局長請呂次長跟白局長"},{"start":12.194,"end":31.888,"text":"委員長很久沒看了是來 我今天問三個問題 三個問題第一個 我們衛福部從2017年就設這個兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶對不對是 沒錯可是現在已經八九年了對"},{"start":35.31,"end":53.06,"text":"那你是用中低收入到低收入家庭的孩子那到現在到目前就是三萬九千多人然後存款才三十二億這樣平均起碼一人存八萬塊而已"},{"start":59.545,"end":70.791,"text":"這個案子很好地擴大整個方向整個限制都打開這個本身就是一個好的方法了是不是 市長"},{"start":73.05,"end":87.382,"text":"非常感謝委員 長久以來對少子女化問題的關心 我要委員報告就是我們之前 其實這是在美國最早有一個資產累積叫Sheldon 他的理論就是說 強硬人 希望他們在最早 我們十八歲的時候有辦法第一桶金 讓他們的經濟市場可以繼續"},{"start":98.792,"end":118.103,"text":"但委員報告我們現在推動的部分我們也是說就是要幫助我們這個港口的家庭讓他們脫貧那你現在這個錢是委託台灣銀行嗎我們現在就是存在 存在台銀那邊是跟存在的那些私房或是他們有投資"},{"start":120.008,"end":143.041,"text":"我們都現在是儲蓄的功能 只有儲蓄而已所以可以定存的錢 那不是笑的這理想的幾乎是零啊所以你現在 你現在這個草案說是要讓勞保局操作嘛 勞保局你們在看什麼 勞保局你們看看錢 幾點要給你們 你看你們多厲害"},{"start":145.829,"end":170.006,"text":"跟委員做報告現在國內這個兒少發展賬戶那是由主管機關衛福部這邊來指定台銀來辦理那目前的一個實務運作據我們了解其他模式相對是成熟對於中央還有地方主管機關還有金融機構之間的一個分工還有作業流程相對是清楚的那如果在勞動部這邊的話因為勞保局過去扮演的角色是在社會保險部分的一個"},{"start":170.826,"end":193.025,"text":"保險人那如果在基金的投資運用上面是我們勞動部的勞動基金運用局這邊來做處理那如果說就這樣的一個制度當然今天大院其實也討論了非常多在制度的一個設計上我們也尊重主管機關這邊的一個考量不過在設計的過程中因為以勞保局我們現行的一個整個勞保局的一個定位角色跟"},{"start":193.505,"end":202.396,"text":"人力上面我們是有提到剛剛還講的兒少的發展賬戶如果說在現行的模式上一定有一個相對成熟穩定的運作模式經驗可循"},{"start":203.41,"end":230.246,"text":"那在這樣的一個基礎上跟如果把這個業務再委託到勞保局對我們而言是全新的業務衛福部這個架構我看是還不錯但是他就錢就你存在台銀他就是全放在那裡走並且設立一個帳戶這樣而已啊不去投資嘛不去投資就沒有它的效益出來那如果說將來還是放在台銀台銀能力會不會很差啊"},{"start":232.208,"end":257.947,"text":"你們的操作幾兆幾兆在操作的你們的效益都有8% 10% 12%所以台會指定給你們對你們才比較有期待那如果是衛福部你把留在衛福部之前交給台銀台銀也是用這種投資的型態台銀自己本身就可以操作因為我給他算一算你沒有多少錢"},{"start":259.088,"end":287.633,"text":"最多才三四千億而已比你們那幾兆幾兆再投資的差太多了如果是將來交給你們應該也是小case啦如果是給台銀的話台銀才有那個能力啦我現在比較大的質疑啦現在台銀沒有來不然的話就請他好好的來表示也跟委員這邊做一個補充在目前是不是勞動基金議員局今天副局長有來是不是如果委員同意的話可以請副局長這邊做一個補充那目前我們在"},{"start":289.874,"end":304.785,"text":"勞工退休金的制度上面我們有新制跟舊制那在台銀部分的話舊制就是在我們勞基法56條有明確規定我們的收支保管運用是委託台灣銀行來做處理那我們的基金運用局主要是負責新制部分因為下次這個會繼續辦來 第二個問題請次長"},{"start":310.861,"end":332.568,"text":"市長這第二個問題就是這一個今天提出的這個未來賬戶這個是很好的我們執政黨的立法委員也說這個很好但是只是說兇兇把他踢出來所以他為何沒有credit為何他的公債為何沒有去所以把他搶 搶到後還要開公廳還要做什麼"},{"start":334.429,"end":351.14,"text":"那事實上這個在全世界像新加坡 英國 韓國 加拿大都有了嘛那邊的各式的方式都不一樣這都有精力出來了是 謝謝所以出生給他五萬 每一年給他一萬一萬一萬那家長要拿可以一年多拿十萬"},{"start":355.563,"end":379.23,"text":"這樣到你如果說拿10萬到12歲、18歲那就不太錢了對 這個是好事啦又去投資 又有賺一點利息又有賺一點投資的效益那這個是好事 倒是我們健保局我們衛福部本身是比較保守嘛好像一種站在旁邊的人站固定立立 你不笑的"},{"start":380.291,"end":384.595,"text":"你現在說的這幾個我估計就是剛才委員所說的英國英國是兩千五年開辦的但是兩千十一年它都停了是怎樣"},{"start":395.285,"end":401.651,"text":"不像我剛才說的2008所以委員我們為什麼因為我們這些都是港口人的錢我們要更謹慎的啦你說要用投資 投資比有風險嘛這個部分可能還是要慎思啦 我剛才說英國那個案例可能"},{"start":415.155,"end":433.234,"text":"嚴公義是2011年他還有一個是由Junior ISA這三萬台那個保安就是後來就沒辦法你去到一半變成兩位了所以他們就很好就很好就接下去了所以我們知道大家都希望說做好但是這個因為像保安今天也有說這個這樣下去四千多億"},{"start":436.357,"end":445.846,"text":"我們現在高齡化我們有很多社會救助長照3.0都要退縮所以是不是會產生排擠效果可能也是要謹慎來來來變更舒服好"},{"start":450.04,"end":462.483,"text":"所以這個還要等民進黨有沒有提版本行政大臣要不要提版本那部長有指示說我們現在就是廣聽我們國務委員還有我們社會各自的意見我們來做一個對民間我們這些父母最好的一個方案我們是那個開放態度"},{"start":476.342,"end":483.888,"text":"好 所以臨近目前要做的就是這樣要做 不用這樣做議長有提及我們現在目前現有剛才委員也有說這個我們會來研擬看是不是可以再擴大好過不錯 我們要怎麼擴大我最後問你 台灣有八百萬戶左右八百萬"},{"start":495.916,"end":506.866,"text":"裡面沒有納稅或是納5%以下的所得稅差不多要到5%幾萬塊所以差不多六成我都沒有納稅所以你用4萬塊太少了"},{"start":513.452,"end":536.726,"text":"一定要享受這個沒落水或是說落5%以下的水這個孩子你要幫他補償如果說收入很高的這個他們自己就有嫁給他嘛有的孩子像你說的孩子在股市有開戶的像我們部長那麼有錢對不對小孩在股市就要有開戶啊對不對我只是說笑但是我要跟你說的就是祭祀這個"},{"start":538.206,"end":563.167,"text":"五六百萬給伊哈一定要給他們一個投資型這樣對小孩子將來要保障因為我們現在錢這樣好的時候就很多錢不好的時候有可能就不好我們台灣現在1100多萬個勞工裡面在做晶片業的才100多萬人"},{"start":563.687,"end":580.47,"text":"其他的1000萬都苦哈哈傳統產業現在都苦哈哈那這個晶片業如果往下掉一點馬上出問題你看整個股市70%的資金都在消高科技晶片這個是很可怕的事情"},{"start":581.448,"end":607.926,"text":"你們看好我是看得很擔心這個農產業你看這個整個股市這邊都國票都六個大米嗎這要多少這個好嗎我不知道這個是我們行政院也要小心的所以你們是開放的態度讓大家來討論原則上你們暫時不提版本"},{"start":612.372,"end":613.755,"text":"我們廣聽各方意見"}]}},{"id":"167040","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0a7e64720b20f103e307671192a7c66aa7fca8e6801c49bdd5e42fc9f2fe0e8b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:44:06 - 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統計方法不同我們要注意其實對衛福部而言我們最關切的問題是獨居且需關懷所以剛剛委員所說的就是那個5萬我承認那地方列管只有5萬跟你們衛福部評估39萬還是差了30幾萬"},{"start":154.875,"end":179.007,"text":"正因為這樣所以我們必須要趕快來做所以我們要重新調查這幾年的工作都白做了嘛我要問的是接下來不是只有調查而是讓他們怎麼樣成為這個社會被關懷的對象很多人在家裡過世了沒有人知道而且親朋好友去敲門才知道甚至他跟家人不聯絡甚至沒有上班的同事關心"},{"start":180.007,"end":187.292,"text":"這才是今天台灣社會很大的問題就是說我們幾乎沒有這樣子的緊急聯絡人所以我們很多也學習了您的一個在台北的這個經驗所以我們在這邊會來老人就是如果真的需要關懷的話我們會有每一天的送餐還有現在最重要就是學習您的經驗我們來設立這一個整個緊急求救裝置"},{"start":204.123,"end":230.971,"text":"這叫做社會安全網的一環只是社會安全網比較著重在於所謂的那些有問題的家庭但是其實孤獨死亡才是新的社會問題那另外一個就是我們看到中國大陸他推出一款APP叫做死了嗎也就是設定緊急聯絡人電子信箱如果你沒有上傳APP的話就會通知你的緊急聯絡人這個APP在中國大陸是下載第一名"},{"start":232.071,"end":247.367,"text":"也就是說如果我們政府要花六十幾億去做這個那是不是也弄一個相關的APP可以讓我們跟自己的緊急人員保持主動的聯絡現在的網路這麼發達如果你有花六十幾億去清查你還不如花六十幾億花一點點錢去做一個APP讓大家可以通報"},{"start":249.87,"end":273.707,"text":"包委員 我想您在台北市 但是副市長您也知道就是說這個重點並不是偵測的問題現在最重要的是偵測到之後你要有人去接受你後面要撿得起來 要接得住嘛但是現在這個APP就是通知他的緊急聯絡人總有一個人會去看他現在是沒人去看他 沒人知道他沒錯 所以我們在這裡面會補助地方政府他們成立Core Center"},{"start":274.668,"end":301.333,"text":"所以接下去要做的是我希望衛福部有個具體的甚至我認為我們應該列一個所謂的專門的法律來做相關的處理它已經成為少子化之外的國家重要的安全問題現在孤獨死亡不是只有老人喔四五十歲中年很多甚至有年輕人在家裡猝死的然後沒有人知道的其實孤獨死亡它是一個整體國家安全接不接得住的問題衛福部責無旁貸"},{"start":302.893,"end":328.775,"text":"好嗎 這是第一塊包委員 這個應該是全那個各部會啦都要 大家共同來利益所以我不希望說再發生內政部講一種數字衛福部講一種數字然後地方政府列管另外一個完全不一樣的數字是是 謝謝 列管完成但是沒人去接沒錯 列管只是列管 好嗎好 謝謝 接下去我想問一下有關所謂未來彰悟我看到反正大家都認為說這是一件重要的事情而是一件正確的事情衛福部自己的態度跟立場呢"},{"start":329.549,"end":347.145,"text":"我們今天就是部長一開始也說我們就是來虛心來聆聽各方的意見這大概是全世界都一樣的問題不是只有台灣第二個就是這個部分大家說有錢沒錢但是受惠於AI高科技相關的出口中央銀行剛剛上修了114年的經濟成長到7.3%"},{"start":352.45,"end":365.119,"text":"然後我們今年預估今年的成長率到3.67其實編列預算的時候這些都沒有在裡面接下去其實不要再說政府沒錢政府要賺錢很容易時間暫停我請國發會請國發會"},{"start":373.041,"end":396.761,"text":"副主委我們的賴總統在去年5月說滿週年的時候他說要做國家主權基金然後我們跟美國的談判到現在還是空轉20%加恩還是沒有進展日本跟韓國都被川普要求投資三千億四千億的美金然後我們的國發會針對所謂的剛剛講不管是做什麼事情都需要錢"},{"start":397.822,"end":415.678,"text":"那我們當時賴總統說要去做主權基金幫國家賺錢這件事情進展到底怎麼樣我到現在沒有看到任何的進展我想這個主權基金我在院裡面還在各部門的研議當中要不要做還在規劃當中要做還是不要做"},{"start":416.461,"end":429.268,"text":"還沒有做最後的決定 沒做決定但是總統先宣示了總統宣示之前都沒有演繹跟委員報告一下因為主權基金涉及的相關的議題相當的"},{"start":431.489,"end":455.78,"text":"但是總統已經宣示一年了而且其實我們希望朝野有共識所以我們現在基本上在收集朝野之間對於台灣設立主權及其相關的意見這件事情全世界也是一樣大家都朝這個方向在走只是制度上面要怎麼做可以多多參考各國的狀況但是不要總統說了之後一年還是樓梯都沒有響啊"},{"start":457.039,"end":478.235,"text":"連樓梯都沒有想更不要說人下來了對基本上總統也是希望我們多多看看我的意思是說應該是國發會研議出來之後總統才對外宣示而不是總統宣示完一年之後我們在立法院問你的答案還是今天這樣空洞這不是這個國家很奇怪的地方我先宣示了然後我不做然後你們還在研議然後最後告訴我說我不知道要不要做"},{"start":479.135,"end":508.118,"text":"要做就做什么时候做而已现在是你连说做都不知道是不是应该是说我们有这样的规划可是我想任何的规划事实上都要有朝野就是我们要去都要有朝野共识那就不要随便乱说第二个我想问那现在我们跟美国的关税谈判20加N到底谈完了没什么时候会有一个初步的结果能够跟其他国家做一个比较吗"},{"start":508.938,"end":532.246,"text":"現在有結果了嗎我想其實那個OTM已經有對外說明我們現在已經到最後所以沒有新的狀況我們已經說我們在最後階段已經快三個月了是因為有時候雙邊的談判不是我方可以到現在都沒有任何的進展我想應該是有我們我想立法院都非常體諒行政院我們知道談判是困難的但是"},{"start":533.666,"end":561.822,"text":"說一直在談談到現在還沒有結果都已經年底了然後都已經跟日本韓國差了好幾個月了不應該再這樣拖下去同樣的剛剛講如果我們真的是要做這麼多國家安全包括人口老人年輕人未來賬戶這些事情需要更多的所謂的國家預算主權基金是一個很重要的裁員來源這個可能也不能再繼續拖下去了好嗎我想委員的意見也是對主權基金的一個看法是"},{"start":562.882,"end":577.339,"text":"希望政府是去賺更多的錢回來照顧更多的人而不是把事情停擺在這裡如果要做就認真做因為我想主權基金就跟今天的兒童法一樣一旦成立以後其實它影響是非常非常深遠的"},{"start":577.779,"end":605.37,"text":"所以我們覺得主權基金的規劃所以不應該只是總統宣誓之後是一個空談我想總統宣誓是要希望藉由他的宣誓基金總統宣誓不能隨便宣誓啊收集各方更多的意見總統宣誓不能只是講一個空話然後什麼東西都沒有然後你們才開始研究我的問題是這個我想主權基金的研議我們其實過去一直沒有相關的研究我希望在今年2026年這應該有個具體落實如果今年都不能具體落實那就是空話到底啊"},{"start":606.01,"end":610.188,"text":"好嗎 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炮管壽命基本上我們到底有沒有耗損我們應該再從我們實際上更換的多少槍 炮管來回推其實跟槍管跟炮管的製造的品質也有相關"},{"start":194.219,"end":214.349,"text":"為什麼人家的榴彈砲37倍進來可以跑那麼遠 我們的打不遠其實有時候不是彈的問題 有時候是砲管的問題砲管的品質 像最近那個中國的戰車砲在泰國的邊境 塘炸那就是品質問題 不能怪炸彈啦好 所以 鋼型彈有大量的用那我現在要問啊 那我們自己會做為什麼要外購"},{"start":216.735,"end":244.33,"text":"我們剛剛一直聽到核心命題嘛自己會做為什麼要外購剛剛也有報告過了這個在來來 彈藥說明跟委員做一個說明就是這幾年因為恢復EUE增招然後那個較招包含我們去年也核定了吸行量的一個數量的提升所以導致我整個戰備存量跟教育訓練用彈的這個數量都增加增加的比例多少"},{"start":245.13,"end":269.032,"text":"增加將近快這個我聽起來是快一倍多吧我剛才光你們聽就是從2000多萬發現在變5000多萬發嘛大概成長了2點多倍嘛那個是訓練的部分戰備的部分也提升那我想這個部分可能不宜戰備我尊重有些軍事機密我們不提我想戴耀處這邊應該要說明的就是說過去以來的"},{"start":271.106,"end":281.734,"text":"一個戰備存量之所以夠那現在不夠那大概過去以來應該是都沒有在採購的部分我們當初在106年軍備局要205場要遷場之前有問過我們那時候評估一年的社訓量大概2000多萬而已"},{"start":288.871,"end":299.416,"text":"那這前四年就突然間整個就暴升到大概五六千那這個等於說這四年打下來已經幾乎是我八年的一個訊號量那我們的產線開始量產了沒產線現在我們自己國內的鋼芯彈的產線開始生產了沒"},{"start":306.65,"end":321.564,"text":"現在就是剛剛提到了115年的3月我們的這個既有的應該是分現有的跟新的我都會同時跟委員報告我舊縣也一樣請中科院都是包含在合約裡面"},{"start":323.346,"end":338.602,"text":"開始量產了沒還是逐步開始現在逐步用小批量在測試對 全線3月份全線量產所謂的1億發的產能其實還沒到那個數字嘛對 3月份3月份才會達到嘛好 剛才這邊整理起來就是因為我們的EWE從4個月恢復到一年期"},{"start":339.403,"end":357.675,"text":"我們的訓騎從五週變成八週所以訓練加上實彈化以前像我們EWE的時候大概打六發也幾發現在你們打了七八百發又打很多輪啦因為我兒子剛退伍他們打了很多輪也就是說訓練用的彈量非常大那大的具體數據剛剛也講了五千多萬發"},{"start":359.096,"end":387.698,"text":"那鋼琴彈有沒有在用 有啊用了83% 4000多萬發啊然後當你訓練的用吃到戰備美軍援外吃到戰備一定馬上去採購補足戰備所以美國才會跟日本買愛國者飛彈嘛去補他的戰備嘛否則美國自己會做愛國者飛彈幹嘛跟日本買就是他援助烏克蘭他的戰備量吃到了以色列援助外的部分吃到了所以他增加所以這一題其實是一個科學問題"},{"start":389.102,"end":414.907,"text":"需求量跟使用量跟戰備量三個數據ABC去加總就知道了倒是有數價格的比較我覺得有三個不同這個我就不問你們了2005年當時是美軍代工合約六塊錢那個嘛2005年那我要請教各位都將領都是軍事專家一顆子彈裡面的火藥用在哪裡他是不是只有敵火跟發射藥還有沒有第三種火藥"},{"start":416.616,"end":425.204,"text":"就是敵火跟發射藥而已就發射藥所以我如果說沒有美軍提供的是敵火跟發射藥我們國內製造我們還要出火藥"},{"start":429.707,"end":456.644,"text":"所以我不好意思講啦其實火藥發射藥那個發射藥跟抵火就是火藥的家種所以2005年20多年前當時的代工合約就是代工材料是他們提供的製成他來協助的那我們那個代工費的價格跟我去買那個最終成品的價格的比較基本上這是謬誤的比較第二個2005年到2025年物料成本成長了多少"},{"start":457.344,"end":483.681,"text":"用這樣相差20年份比較這也是一個謬誤第三個都叫子彈不代表價格都一樣就像都叫汽車品牌不同型號不同價格也不同所以這三個比較基礎的不同去說我們不應該採購怎麼樣其實我們不管是戰備需求或者訓練需求這些採購都可以去根據科學問題去驗證合不合理所以這題我們把它打住我現在要問你"},{"start":484.562,"end":498.172,"text":"美國曾經用PDA總統撥款特權有無償提供了我們一些裝備當然這有些涉及機密我就不細問那個部長這兩天我看媒體有揭露我們的那個"},{"start":500.813,"end":522.823,"text":"護衛營就是飛彈車的護衛營單位或者海軍陸戰隊有開始使用美國援助的M4A1的步槍這個我看媒體有報了這個確實有在使用了好像一些陸軍海軍陸戰隊有在用這一個M4A1的步槍這是美軍現役的步槍那我第一個請教的我不會問你數量因為這數量是機敏"},{"start":524.161,"end":548.009,"text":"就我了解美國的M4A1它的瞄準鏡是標配為什麼我看你們出示的相片裡面我們的國軍弟兄使用的M4A1沒有瞄準鏡是相片錯了還是你們沒有提供包委員它那個是執行的時候沒有把它放上去事實上軍援的那個部分它還是援助了一部分的那個快瞄鏡"},{"start":548.789,"end":565.522,"text":"有瞄準鏡 有一比一嗎 有有一批那就不是部分啦 就一比一所以美國美國提供給我們的M4A1步槍是有瞄準鏡 對那你說他們在執行任務拍那張相片的時候是沒有裝上去 沒有裝上去那什麼時候會裝 而且報委員因為當初他"},{"start":568.803,"end":587.098,"text":"配給我們就是援助的那個瞄準鏡的部分並不是1比1的援助不是1比1不是1比1所以我們就針對後備戰力提升的這個部分以及這些因為我記得我質詢過顧部長在這邊承諾包含我們T112我們都希望因為現在我們要打得準打得遠嘛"},{"start":587.438,"end":608.957,"text":"才回到剛才剛現在那一題嘛要打得準打得遠我們花大錢買的飛彈導彈都要又遠又準那我們每一個單兵各一個步槍兵所使用的武器當然我們也希望它能夠又遠又準所以瞄準鏡幾乎在美軍是標配所以我們T-1122也謝謝部長那時候才是就是全部都要配上光學相關的瞄準鏡那"},{"start":609.797,"end":624.755,"text":"M4是好槍啦M4A1是美軍現役在用的槍所以它如果有搭配一部分的瞄準鏡我們未來會不會想辦法讓它都補上來會全部都補滿會補滿嘛那使用的時機點是什麼它不是都會裝在上面訓練的時候 射擊訓練的時候它就會裝上去用"},{"start":626.917,"end":651.029,"text":"那在實戰的戰備的任務呢實戰戰備裡面他會依照不同的狀況去做配掛好 下一次你們再有相關的戰備釋出的相片裡面讓我們看到有掛配他什麼時機要用另外古斯塔夫無後座力炮其實是算世界一流先進的反戰車炮那美國當時PDA也送了一批古斯塔夫給我們我們到底有沒有配下去用"},{"start":654.568,"end":661.426,"text":"幫委員這個部分可能不方便在這裡做說明理由是什麼我們軍援的部分原則上"},{"start":664.025,"end":684.042,"text":"有部分涉及敏感的部分我們就不會公開做說話我尊重 我的意思是說如果美國軍援的東西合我們用我們現在是擔心後勤補給跟不上那我們就要思考相關的採購跟我們的配發要一致如果不合我們用我們也應該要表達說這跟我們現在裝備有抵觸"},{"start":685.963,"end":706.668,"text":"而不是收了援助放在倉庫這個就不好我不知道有沒有放在倉庫如果有用是個好因為我看不管烏克蘭戰場或美軍現役古斯塔夫是一個好的裝備人家無償送給我們那表示要買也買得到那這個東西可不可以補足我們現在反裝甲的火力不足因為我們的66火箭彈效期快到了"},{"start":707.368,"end":731.327,"text":"紅準一也沒達標啊我們紅準二測評現在好像還沒有測完啊所以我們希望說這個火力如果是我們戰備所需求的應該要尋求這個世界一流先進給我們國軍弟兄最好的裝備我們再講一次軍事採購扶植國防產業那是第二目標第一目標是給國軍弟兄用合用好用該用的東西而不是為了扶植產業用次等品"},{"start":732.629,"end":742.387,"text":"這個觀念不一樣所以有好裝備要弄上去所以古斯塔夫你不方便回答有沒有使用我就不為難海馬斯上面有架一個應該是排用機槍"},{"start":744.073,"end":764.294,"text":"我上次看他展出的時候上面有架一頂機槍我們海馬斯的 有嘛你們架的不是美國的他標配的那種台用機槍我看起來裝的是我們國產的那個小小的那個是世衛用的機槍所以我們是依現有的數量去做搭配對 你們現在裝在海馬斯上面就那門槍"},{"start":765.635,"end":775.01,"text":"跟那個車子不是一組的啦你是用我們自己示威用的那個排用機槍吧那為什麼不裝上美國直接他也送了排用機槍給我們"},{"start":778.294,"end":798.203,"text":"我們後面針對海馬斯智慧的部分那個是分層次檢討的那在當初海馬斯的這個構案裡面我們主要的是針對火箭發射平台跟ATACM的這個部分還有精準GMLS的這個火箭去做採購那後續再依照作戰需求我們事實上各個裝備我們會陸續進行調整來做採購"},{"start":801.264,"end":817.577,"text":"我另外請教這個配付量剛才講的為什麼彈灰需求量大因為我們現在實戰化訓練然後讓兵習慣用槍這個是好事我們一直在鼓勵這件事情就我了解T1122我們的吸行量配付量我們的彈匣現在標準是"},{"start":818.715,"end":841.35,"text":"沒有 不只7個 應該是11個 你比的跟陳建義比的就不一樣11個啦 7個是C型量啦 兩個再連 兩個再贏嘛 對不對所以總共每一把步槍 從過去 其實以前只配4個配4個 你以烏克蘭戰場來看 少一輪子彈就用完了所以我們現在把C型量符合實戰化的需求每一個步槍兵帶7個彈匣"},{"start":843.331,"end":859.994,"text":"然後呢 兵營 軍營就是連跟營各保存兩個所以是四個 四加七所以每一把槍配十一個所以我們的彈量要增加 彈匣也要增加而且你們是塑鋼的嘛 那個塑膠的比較好所以我們現在 我曾經在這邊要求以後不要讓部隊去省彈匣"},{"start":861.055,"end":876.128,"text":"你知道嗎 部隊有時候槍卡彈不是槍不好是那個彈匣被敲半天彈不上來這個把它當耗損品部長我建議很多次了我們自己兵工廠生產的彈匣能不能讓我們各使用步槍的單位每一年"},{"start":877.009,"end":895.505,"text":"給他換30%就是我強制配下去讓你更新因為不要因為一個彈匣這麼低價的東西去影響整支槍的效能勤儉建軍是陸軍的文化你們省到那個彈匣從頭上敲 敲到桌上那子彈彈不起來就彈不起來這個不好所以我建議這彈匣定期更新你們現在有沒有這個政策"},{"start":896.406,"end":924.713,"text":"鮑委員有 我們除了您要求的T112每一支槍要多增加4個彈匣之外另外T勾1含以前其他的原來配附是5個我們現在要增加到11個的話要多買6個另外檢討了全軍現在所有故障的彈匣數字我就不跟您報告了這三個部分我們全部都重新檢討也編列了相關預算盡快太新了我覺得給國軍隊的裝備足夠的資源讓國軍弟兄我們不管在各項家籍"},{"start":925.413,"end":954.211,"text":"我們過去十年加擠調整了十八次啦然後我們的基本的薪資調整了四次當然我們希望越多越好只要合法合憲大家來處理但是裝備要合宜我覺得這是每一個不管是士兵到將領裝備合宜是一個非常重要的事情那我就不再多佔時間我希望部長我們我一直在檢討我們的邊線比最小戰力域值以及相關的東西我還是會持續追蹤希望如果整理好出來之後給本席一份 好不好那以上謝謝各位時間 謝謝"},{"start":955.173,"end":955.193,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167036","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167036","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0a24484c94a4ec84ce6ea9f55fbd6b87589ddda9214312ca76df6a493928834075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:32:37 - 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93條 101條 108條這幾個修正案在我看來都其實這幾個修正案再提出來就其實引起司法界極大極大的"},{"start":63.903,"end":88.908,"text":"討論跟爭議跟質疑啦齁但是我想說今天我們在一併的齁一個呼嚨的把這三個主題把它鬥在一起齁這個部分我希望說能夠提出來討論這個是受到司法界非常關注的一個有關尤其是有關於相關的這些偵查中審查審判中的這個羈押制度的修正齁這部分我希望來做討論所以這部分我是不是先請我們法務部"},{"start":95.871,"end":113.211,"text":"委員長市長早剛剛我們講的這所謂第三部分這個刑事訴訟法相關的部分其實它裡面又有好多個部分的這個羈押制度的相關的修改包括這個第404條是有關這個強制處分的裁定不得抗告的部分這個是一個那另外這個"},{"start":115.013,"end":140.524,"text":"這個刑事訴訟第93條有關於偵查這個偵查中的這個羈押審查程序的相關規定這個又是一個部分再來是兩個爭議最大的部分第一個是101條有關於刪除這個羈押的事由刪除這個勾算證人跟這個勾算共犯的這個部分作為羈押事由這個部分爭議非常大這個部分等一下來討論第二個另外再來一個就是這個"},{"start":142.966,"end":169.046,"text":"108條有關於縮短羈押期限這個部分也引起很大的爭議那我就從因為怕時間不夠從爭議大的部分我們先來討論首先是這個有關於第101條的行事做法第101條這個羈押適由的這個修正案他這個在第一款的第一款的跟這個第一項的跟第一款第二款第三款"},{"start":169.967,"end":192.507,"text":"四個部分都有做修正包括這個第一項有關於增加且無其他替代手段作為積壓室油這個是第一個部分在第一款的部分把這個事實加上具體兩個字具體事實這個部分其實也有值得討論但是真正引起最大最大爭議是有關第二款第三款"},{"start":193.818,"end":215.915,"text":"有關於這個勾串對 有關於勾串共犯證人之餘的這個部分在修正案中把勾串簡單講就是說有勾串共犯跟勾串證人之餘不能當作羈押的理由這個部分引起最大的爭議這個這個"},{"start":222.132,"end":246.558,"text":"這個修正案一提出來 立刻就引起了我們包括司法界各界的嘩然簡單講就是嘩然了大家聽到覺得怎麼會怎麼會有一個負責任的政黨會提出這樣子的一個修法呢怎麼會對於所謂勾串犯人跟勾串證人變成不能夠羈押不能當作羈押的室友呢"},{"start":247.558,"end":271.703,"text":"這個部分包括這些檢察官的這個團體 像這個建清檢改包括許多的檢察官 甚至法官也都提出了相關的質疑那我們來講說這個有關於這個勾串把這個勾串從這個羈押的室友把它拿掉的最大的"},{"start":272.659,"end":284.056,"text":"的影響這部分我有看到你們的書面報告其實所謂勾串共犯跟證人他作為羈押的室友並不是中華民國法治的發明也不是我國所獨有"},{"start":285.549,"end":313.826,"text":"事實上不管在美國在德國在相關的進步的這些法治國家裡面勾串共犯騷擾證人相關勾串證人這個都是絕對是重大的羈押的理由對這是保全證據必要手段所以為什麼我國現在有什麼樣的條件有什麼樣的事由有什麼樣的形狀變更讓我們有必須要做這樣子的修法呢是不是請法務部說明一下"},{"start":315.501,"end":343.02,"text":"沒有 很簡單 你回答兩個字 沒有啊沒有任何的理由說我們要把這個勾串共犯跟證人這個拿掉啦你如果把這個拿掉之後 簡單講你剩下保全這個不能夠勾串共犯跟證人你只剩下什麼 剩下拒保 責負 限制居住相關這幾個替代處分這種拒保 我簽名 我保證不會去勾串證人"},{"start":344.502,"end":365.19,"text":"或者是我責負 或者是我限制住居就可以防止這個證人的勾串嗎可以防止對於這個共犯的勾串對於證人的騷擾跟勾串嗎完全沒有辦法替代吧對 這個對證據的保全跟將來的訴追絕對會造成非常非常大的影響"},{"start":366.994,"end":382.412,"text":"尤其這不只是人權的問題啦包括有沒有辦法防止串供這種尤其是現代的這種典型的共犯型的犯罪集團式的犯罪我們在於對於證人對於這個共犯之間的勾串以及他對證人之間的騷擾這個絕對是最"},{"start":384.995,"end":398.001,"text":"最嚴重的羈押是有啦那現在現今的尤其是大家國人不管哪個政黨大家所在講的現在的這個是詐騙案件每次主題一排詐騙案件大家屁屁叫啊我們詐騙案件我們這個詐騙案層出不窮大家辦案辦不下去"},{"start":403.243,"end":431.637,"text":"為什麼我們最需要防止共犯串證的詐騙犯罪案件量最多其他不只連略同的案件兒少的案件相關的組織犯罪黑道這些都是勾串共犯騷擾證人這都是最嚴重的干擾辦案還有貪賭跟毒品案件都是一樣還有什麼貪賭跟毒品這些都是都是有這個問題"},{"start":433.28,"end":453.353,"text":"所以我今天在看立法會我就不曉得你們到底為什麼要來修改這個規範為了一個在市長室踩飛輪收300萬的貪污犯這不是我講的啊 這個是起訴書154頁講的為了一個收謝國良200萬的貪污犯為了一個收建商1500萬政治現金 圖利121億的貪污犯為了一個人為事"},{"start":459.687,"end":479.716,"text":"然後你要來讓這些詐騙 虐童 組織犯罪 貪賭等等其他相關案件的辦案難度增加來讓他們有利於這些共犯跟證人之間的串供 勾結我不懂這是什麼道理 我不懂這個提案的政黨是什麼道理"},{"start":483.054,"end":498.103,"text":"這個部分我希望不只是這樣我們看過去大家所關心在這邊靠北靠北大家講的這些凱凱案過去為什麼羈押也是因為就是用這個理由羈押對不對如果我們這一條刪除之後凱凱案它就不能羈押了對不對包括台版的N號房也都是因為這個理由對不對所以我在這邊希望在野黨能夠懸來樂嘛"},{"start":510.743,"end":539.738,"text":"修掉這一條 你只是為了柯文哲一個人來為事你會造成社會多大的危害莫此為慎 莫此為慎接下來有關108條這個羈押理由的縮短這個部分也引起這個法界 我們法界的很大的這個爭議不管是這個各界 包括我們這個不管是檢方 不管是法官 不管是律師界 不管是"},{"start":541.131,"end":568.05,"text":"這個留德的 留日的 留美的 各界的學者 大家都看到這樣的修法 都齊齊以為不可我們比較各國的羈押制度台灣的羈押制度並沒有比世界各國其他各國期間長嘛有嗎 沒有 這個德國是偵查階段的羈押是六個月 原則上是六個月耶六個月 而且他延長機制 每一次延長可以遇六個月"},{"start":571.951,"end":582.209,"text":"這個美國的聯邦法院根本連期限都沒有美國聯邦法院連羈押的期限都沒有那我們現在是有什麼室友說覺得羈押期限太長呢"},{"start":583.274,"end":608.157,"text":"我們現在所有剛剛所講的這些不管是詐欺案件不管是組織犯罪案件我們現在包括最 辦案最困難的大家一直在講說我們為什麼打詐為什麼打詐這個詐欺案件越來越嚴重為什麼就是因為查我們在偵查詐欺犯不好辦不好辦 哪裡不好辦就是因為他必須要調閱金流必須比對通年紀錄他必須要解析這些數位證據"},{"start":609.796,"end":634.373,"text":"這些東西你現在要我們積壓線現有的積壓期限其實都已經跑的都來不及了對不對常常在積壓期限已經到了但是我們相關的金流分析還沒有辦法完成對不對我們這些數位數位的數據的解析證據的解析都沒有辦法在這麼短的時間內完成所以其實這樣子的這樣子目前的這樣子的積壓期限的時間設計他是兼顧"},{"start":637.535,"end":659.502,"text":"人權的保障 同時兼顧發現真實所需要的時間 對不對那我現在就不懂了 我們現在也就是不是又是為了為一個人 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那地方縣政府縣長也可以說我認為你們這自治條例違憲我不執行那就天下大亂完全違反法的明確性還有法的穩定性原則那麻煩下一次如果說在相關的議題在討論的時候是不是我們可以請行政院跟內政部他們要能夠派人來參加"},{"start":96.626,"end":111.964,"text":"我想謝謝吳委員的建議這次邀請上面的確是 也忘記邀請內政部的移民署所以我們接下來還會再安排相關的報告畢竟我們必須要持續的去盯"},{"start":112.484,"end":130.007,"text":"全序部跟考試院為什麼要拖這麼久的時間然後沒有辦法發出審定函我想這是攸關所有退休公教人員的權益那麼這個部分的話我們等到再找時間我們再來做適當的安排專報好 謝謝那我要邀請考試院還有全序部"},{"start":135.509,"end":150.039,"text":"吳委員長請問一下考試院這邊因為你們說在現行法庭作出判決權還有權序部要本於合法合憲原則執行各項作業那請問一下什麼叫做合法合憲 請問兩位"},{"start":152.368,"end":164.88,"text":"就是相關這個法律生效之後這個該執行的部分就會去執行好 那是不是意思就是說其實新法三讀通過總統公佈生效之後只要憲法法庭還沒有判違憲之前本來就應該要來審定跟來發給對不對"},{"start":167.806,"end":194.121,"text":"審定的部分是我們的工作 我們會來處理好 那對啊我覺得你就 那你們其實卓榮泰應該來聽聽看你們在講什麼啦因為他創了一個全世界沒有沒有民主 正常民主國家沒有人幹過的叫做三讀通過後的法律我認為違憲 所以我不執行好 那我再請教一下就是新法有效那權力存在的情況下你們目前的問題是行政作業需要時間這個核定還需要時間是嗎是"},{"start":197.684,"end":209.763,"text":"我第一個問題就是說為什麼這個時間要這麼久要半年 請問你們這個因為我看你們的報告說你們推估需要半年 為什麼"},{"start":211.568,"end":226.333,"text":"這個我跟委員報告這個我們是根據過去的一個經驗譬如說警察條例我們也花了快半年的一個時間因為他需要重新再寫程式然後這裡面還有廠商的一個需求的溝通"},{"start":227.153,"end":241.987,"text":"然後完了以後就需要一個一個還需要去測試測試那個程式一定不會有問題那我們是用那個來經驗那測試的人更多嘛那這樣齁我先尊重你們這個六個月的這個說法當然我個人會覺得說一到現在的"},{"start":243.248,"end":257.518,"text":"那個電腦的效能為什麼需要6個月這是我質疑我第一個我先質疑這個點但第二個我說我尊重部長您的說法但是可不可以麻煩主席麻煩主席才是這一段時間他說要6個月對不對那主席其實對這6個月也是有意見的嘛"},{"start":257.958,"end":279.374,"text":"那我們是不是要求他第一個我們先尊重他們這六個月的要求雖然你我都不認同這六個月但是我們可不可以 是不是說請主席裁示每一個月請全區部或考試院要向我們社會法治委員會提交書面報告進度就說你已經完成多少件的審定了我想這個應該是為了全國公務員一個公平正義這個可不可以請他們做到"},{"start":280.262,"end":287.049,"text":"是 本席也贊同那個吳委員的建議可能要請考試院根據去補每個月要報告到底完成了多少件已經對哪些機關的退休公教人員已經完成審定我想各位報告我們每個月都可以提交進度報告但是這個進度報告不是說那個月完成多少是為了完成到六個月以內要完成審定的極多的步驟"},{"start":302.423,"end":320.173,"text":"我看了第一次的報告我就知道哪裡是要在你們補新規的數據好不好是步驟啦以及你們都完成了多少件嘛你們如果只是步驟我想我們是要整個因為他是要系統完全開放一次作業那我們要一次作業會在六個月裡面最後發出審定函"},{"start":323.115,"end":342.165,"text":"那我想這個委員應該懂我的意思啊那前面就有開始開發我們可能一開始要委託開發就有一個流程所以我說我尊重你們嘛但是你要給我進度啊所以我說我會給進度你們是全國公務員的娘家耶今天你要為了他們的權益你應該是跳出來在前面幫他們擋子彈的人"},{"start":343.726,"end":372.689,"text":"需要我們每個一個月提交一個工作進度這樣好不好我跟主席報告還有跟部長報告你們先提出來我第一個月看你們的報告的方式是什麼如果我有要更精確的數字以及要哪個點我們再直接行文跟你談好不好那我要就是每個月要給我們一個進度否則全國的公務員都不知道你們在做什麼而且我們都覺得為什麼需要六個月那還有本週裡面你們可不可以先把這個"},{"start":374.752,"end":392.653,"text":"先把那個完成的作業計畫跟時程先報到我們委員會來至少我們公開讓全國這18萬名退休的公務員能夠知道不是說半年後再講這件事而是說我們要知道一下你們的將來的做法進度讓我們可以接著監督好不好"},{"start":393.874,"end":409.263,"text":"這個禮拜先告訴我們你的大概結構怎麼做就是你們整個的系統的你們說要什麼要轉換要變更等等相關的執行的步驟麻煩一個禮拜好 謝謝那我要講一個就是一個禮拜之內提供 謝謝"},{"start":410.083,"end":428.636,"text":"好 謝謝 我要講的是說其實我們本來是一個主權在民的國家那主權在民也是憲政的ABC但是我覺得現在政府就是把一個族群一個族群接著丟包所以我看到已經丟包到這樣了我不得不再站出來替大家講話我先講第一個政府先棄養原住民 之前禁法補助"},{"start":429.517,"end":449.135,"text":"法都過了 政府就不編他說我沒有錢我不編第二個 農民啊農民的公糧收購也是啊他說我沒有錢他政府就 你已經過了 他就是不做所以先棄養原住民 再棄養農民現在棄養這些軍警消工教再來呢 下一個會是哪一個族群我不知道 會不會是醫護人員"},{"start":451.498,"end":459.716,"text":"會不會是社工這些現在都是逃難潮你一個國家的運作絕對不是在比說為什麼你護士可以領得比我"},{"start":460.818,"end":482.364,"text":"勞工多 基層的其他工作人員多為什麼你護士可以比我7-11打工的多為什麼可以這樣其實國家不能這樣子比每個人有他的專業他適合什麼樣的薪水的那個range全世界皆然嘛就現在會搞得說一個群組一個族群被他丟包那今天政府就覺得一個蘿蔔一個湯"},{"start":483.724,"end":512.631,"text":"只要有人在這個位置就好 這個人能力怎麼樣 我不在乎所以這幾年我們看到是公務員報考人數越來越少警察報考人數越來越少好的人才都不到公務體系那政府一直跟我說 你有沒有想過勞工勞工收入才多少憑什麼公務員跟我要這個薪水當全世界先進國家對公務員的取材希望走向精英把精英來幫我們擬定最好的政策讓國家一起向上發展就我們的政府不是他只要一個蘿蔔有一個坑就好"},{"start":513.251,"end":531.939,"text":"什麼樣的人才來都可以不懂交通的去幹交通部長反正就不懂這個的去做什麼部長現在變成這個樣子嘛所以只要一個蘿蔔有一個坑這個人是不是專長 他一點都不care所以這就是會讓國家整個制度越走越不好"},{"start":532.739,"end":553.97,"text":"如果我們國家都剩下二流三流的人來幫我們擬定國家重大政策的時候我們很難變成是一流的國家我們這幾年的經濟狀況社會狀況已經很嚴重了我就說我們鄰近的強盛的國家都用精英在找最好的人就像一間公司的治理我都希望找最好的人來當我們的專業經理人"},{"start":555.871,"end":580.888,"text":"結果你今天不說 不用啦 那個專業經理人找這個人來 只要一個月三萬塊就可以你為什麼要找那個一個月要二十萬的然後你再比這個然後好 到最後公司就一團亂這就是我們現在國家的一個狀況 也是我擔心的好 那出了問題之後 政府一個族群 一個族群 一個族群的棄養丟包所以我才希望說站出來守住最後的這一塊我不希望國家整個毀掉"},{"start":582.122,"end":606.676,"text":"社會越來越狀況越來越不好經濟不好我說的經濟是指庶民百姓而不是指經濟的高端階層我們的平均薪資不錯但是我們的薪資中位數很慘但是這些薪資中位數以下的人他們卻是我們現在生小孩或是我們這個社會的最中間的分子就我們現在新生兒出生率剩下0.87請問各位在座的你怎麼對得起我們子子孫孫"},{"start":608.294,"end":622.103,"text":"我們現在國家一年要少多少幾年後剩下人家說再過幾年台灣出生率一年剩6萬個人那我們根本不用等敵人來打我們我們自己就亡國所以我一直覺得說我們到底在創造什麼樣的國家給下一代呢"},{"start":623.803,"end":639.899,"text":"我現在看到整個國家憲政制度整個崩壞以前說五院制衡現在是大家一起來集團來作亂我跟你講行政院帶頭違法不執行三讀通過的法律如此荒謬的鬧劇發生在中華民國"},{"start":640.7,"end":658.335,"text":"第二個 司法院司法院 大法官搞出那個五大於六那個然後講了一大堆亂七八糟的什麼救生員理論自欺騙自欺然後因為我是大法官 我說了算但是我們所有人都覺得你荒謬的鬧劇他也沒有 他也不care啊那司法院的高官來這裡我只不過問他"},{"start":659.175,"end":675.001,"text":"說法律宣布違憲之前人民有沒有遵守的義務他不敢講一直在兜圈子連這個最基本的憲政ABC他都不敢講在兜圈子如果連一個司法人員當法官的人都沒有勇氣對抗不對的事情的時候我怎麼期待國家能夠強盛"},{"start":676.201,"end":702.302,"text":"然後再來 監察院 院長虛位一年多當然他身體因素 我不會有其他的那個啦但畢竟他也是虛位一年多 這是一個客觀的事實又爆出監察院濫用公務車 搞那些公家的資源然後我去監察院 我具裝去那邊檢舉卓榮泰違法 也都沒有下文了好 那現在呢 本來我們最後我覺得最乾淨的一塊考試院跟權需部"},{"start":704.145,"end":729.601,"text":"過往權序部建議說你們應該要撥補什麼預算行政院應該編列但行政院沒有做這件事的時候貴部 貴院沒有跳出來講話就今天反而再跳出來說要趕快要提事先要怎麼樣所以到底公務員的娘家你們你是站在公務員的角度幫公務員爭取權益還是繼續在幫行政院在護航這是我必須我要講出我深刻因為我幹過25年24年半的公務員"},{"start":733.223,"end":749.5,"text":"我沒有辦法 我真的看到這樣子下去我覺得不忍心因為你們對於基層公務員斤斤計較但是呢 破壞整個國家制度的你們卻視而不見所以你現在跟我們講說審定還要半年那我就說 因為"},{"start":751.024,"end":764.675,"text":"我是予以尊重但是我還是希望說這不是一個消極的抵抗這不是一個對於公務員以及對於在野黨的消極抵抗我希望不是這樣所以我才希望你們資料一定要一直拿給我"},{"start":766.736,"end":774.127,"text":"最後我想提一下法務部剛剛次長如果要上來的話法務部剛剛有提到一個點確實剛剛次長講的沒有錯就是在起訴之後的審理期間確實你講的沒有錯"},{"start":783.039,"end":802.448,"text":"這個跟真實發現無關而是你們的重點是放在怕逃亡因為我剛剛再仔細再一次去看你們的報告所以次長您說的這完全正確但是我的意思還是這樣就一個案件已經起訴進入審理中陳生法官他已經所有的卷證資料他都看了但是他認為可以不押可以交保可以限制駐居"},{"start":803.533,"end":826.852,"text":"其實法務部實在是沒有理由用看告去推翻法官他看完卷證資料之後所認為有逃亡的風險所以更何況你們還有一些替代的東西譬如說我們有科技監控等等的方式所以我的草案不是否認被告在起訴之後就沒有逃亡的風險我認為還是有 我自有實務經驗 我認為還是有"},{"start":829.494,"end":846.932,"text":"但是呢 是不是應該讓檢察官在起訴把被告交給法院 接押的時候的接押庭把事情說清楚 講明白之後讓法官自己去決定要不要押所以我說 我們的訴訟制度學美國"},{"start":847.873,"end":862.163,"text":"目前刑事訴訟制度交互結婚選美國但美國他就沒有檢察官在審理中的案件看告這個問題那是不是說我們這個部分應該是把重心放在檢察官檢察官在偵查中"},{"start":863.024,"end":880.354,"text":"他要押人 他要怎麼做我覺得這一定要保障檢察官偵查了這個權益所以有一些人的提案包括其他委員的提案我都不簽 我不認同因為我覺得有一些東西你不能隨隨便便這樣子做但是我認為起訴之後到院方"},{"start":881.734,"end":903.864,"text":"審理逃亡與否這個是法官的全責更何況如果今天這個人跑掉了是法官要擔責任不是檢察官那你憑什麼檢察官可以來決定法官這個裁定是錯的報告委員有權就會有責那今天法官做的這個裁定在檢察官看來這個人還是會逃亡這個人還會繼續來威脅證人那檢察官的認為是繼續要結才是妥當"},{"start":909.847,"end":938.717,"text":"沒有 處長你講錯了檢察官 所以我說接押庭的時候檢察官要到庭論述講清楚 說明白為什麼這個人要繼續押他在審理中檢察官也可以繼續講嘛這個人需要押但是決定權要交給法官來決定而不是讓檢察官可以說不要我們認為上級的法官也要表示意見的機會我們必須抗告以後讓上級的法院來裁判一審的法官我知道這是部裡面的想法嘛但是我要跟"},{"start":939.724,"end":956.092,"text":"那個市長說明一下我認為已經起訴到法院了決定權其實應該交由法官檢察官要盡其所能的把他認為被告可能會逃亡的理由盡量的告訴法官但是由法官來做決定"},{"start":956.972,"end":972.604,"text":"我認為是這樣更何況那個法官是陳審法官這個被告會不會跑掉其實這個法官要擔全部的責任不是檢察官所以你說的全責分明沒錯所以假如法官有權下這個裁定他也必須要有責任去扛這個風險嘛"},{"start":974.065,"end":989.212,"text":"我的意思是這樣我懂委員的意思但是法官扛責任這個對整個社會大眾來講我們考慮的是一個案件最後的結果還有民眾的心理沒關係 這個部分我覺得我很尊重因為次長你也是一線檢察官出色這個部分我們可以溝通將來到我們在討論案子的時候"},{"start":996.576,"end":1016.431,"text":"我提我的草案那您說的也不是完全沒有道理所以我們可以去討論都不要有還是限制次數等等我覺得這就是一個法律上面的研討嘛所以我提我的想法但我也非常尊重法務部的想法我覺得各有各的道理但是你也不能夠否認說其實到法院之後為什麼"},{"start":1017.492,"end":1037.201,"text":"刑事訴訟制度讓檢察官到審理期間不得申請羈押而是由法官才能羈押他有他的道理如果你說我們怕他跑要檢察官要有表示意見的機會那你刑事訴訟制度就直接設計檢察官可以申請在法院審理時可以申請羈押就好了嘛為什麼刑事訴訟制度在法院審理"},{"start":1038.001,"end":1049.366,"text":"的時候不讓檢察官有身體積壓權他也有他的制度的原因所以這個部分將來我希望我們可以做一個實質的好好討論我當然很尊重貴部的一些想法因為"},{"start":1050.578,"end":1074.352,"text":"到審理之後法官比檢察官更怕人跑掉因為跑掉他要背責任的第二個我們國家其實花了很多錢在搞科技監控所以科技監控這塊也是可以彌補很多不能說所有東西都是檢察官認為說這個會跑所以我要押因為認為會不會跑不能當作說我要押你所以我百分之百有理由"},{"start":1075.132,"end":1099.187,"text":"這逃亡風險可是就是勾串證人這一個部分沒有辦法用課金我現在不是在跟你逃勾串我現在一直在講審理中你一直拉到偵查中勾串我沒有講這一塊因為事實上起訴後的被告會施壓要求證人翻供是有的這個我都懂所以我也跟你講所以我們剛剛不是你自己講我們講的你說"},{"start":1101.488,"end":1127.013,"text":"你們並不是在談真實發現這一塊這是您剛說的 對不是在談我理解 因為我看過你們的報告我們在談的是逃亡所以我們現在就逃亡的部分去講啦那至於說勾串之語那個是另外一個議題我並沒有去討論那個議題所以這個部分再麻煩因為我認為說羈押他是法官保留不能把他變回那個檢察官保留最後我講不好意思那個因為今天我們還有其他的委員大家"},{"start":1129.774,"end":1155.719,"text":"第一個我希望起訴的時候把羈押的必要性說清楚我剛剛等吳思瑤等好久你知道嗎第二個我希望你起訴的時候把羈押必要性寫清楚那你擔心有逃亡篡證再犯就具體說明第二個起訴羈押庭要實質攻防檢察官要到庭說明第三個審理中的羈押決定回歸法官的公平審判才是王道謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"167043","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167043","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce010ad3eecd8ab45b9307671192a7c66aa7fca8e6801c49bdd444a855be115db145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:06:35 - 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謝謝召委 我們有請石部長"},{"start":9.589,"end":33.514,"text":"那國發會的副主委其實也一起上來部長好部長這個我剛才特別掉順序就是為了質詢你因為我覺得這麼重大的議題部長你的發言是代表整個衛福部那今天要討論這個台灣未來賬戶我已經看到你面對媒體的時候你說這個普惠室的政策造成資源排擠"},{"start":35.214,"end":54.18,"text":"部長這個讓我對你的印象這個打了折扣這樣的發言其實非常的保守而且你沒有用一個發展性的觀點來看待一個未來的可能性這跟你過去給人家的印象完全不吻合是行政院交代你不可以多發言嗎"},{"start":55.94,"end":79.812,"text":"因為少子化辦公室你講大白話對不對辦公室根本就沒有真正成立啊沒有專人的編制啊你敢講實話大家肯定你啊那這件事情我是覺得以部長的高度或者是過去看你做事的風格你對於有發展性的創新的東西你應該不是第一時間就會去抗拒跟排斥的人嗎你不像"},{"start":80.869,"end":106.889,"text":"跟委員說明早上其實我完整的發言是講所有的政策都是一個選擇那我們都是會在既有的有限資源下去做最好的配置哪些是我們應該要優先那麼難免就會讓有一些這個政策呢就要做互相當中的這些順序的調整"},{"start":107.649,"end":123.143,"text":"所以我常講這個我有時候過去大家也知道我為了健保的財務會睡不著覺其實我們國家面臨當然我們的經濟發展很好但是高齡化跟少子女化很多都需要用錢沒有錯"},{"start":123.683,"end":144.049,"text":"当然所以我们在少子女化部分我们过去从这个少子女对策1.0到今年开始2.0其实我们不断的在强化除了经济弱势的儿童也对一般的儿童那么的挹注但是部长我要告诉你一件事情数据会说话"},{"start":145.289,"end":165.619,"text":"過去政府投資了超過五千億的確有在做 我不會說你們沒有做但是做的結果是去年的我們的新生兒的人口數只有十萬七千八百一十二人我覺得所有的部會所有的人員都要記住107812這個數字要非常的謹記"},{"start":169.821,"end":175.958,"text":"你如果看到從2016年到現在我們新生兒的人數他是腰斬"},{"start":178.24,"end":206.119,"text":"我不知道賴清德總統會不會晚上睡不著覺你將來你連國監幫你打仗的人都很有困難啊所以這個議題我覺得大家不要小看他就是一個標標準準已經是到國安等級危機的問題這不是空話就是大家在2016年的時候也不敢相信說人口怎麼可能掉得這麼快從20萬人可以掉到10萬7812人"},{"start":209.182,"end":221.761,"text":"這個速度太快了所以面對這麼重大的議題政府當然要有魄力 要有遠見要用個更宏觀的角度 發展的角度提出更好的方案嘛"},{"start":223.057,"end":241.402,"text":"如果你還是在那邊縫縫補補小知小覺什麼1.0 2.0 3.0然後慢慢增加我跟你說來不及了來不及了所以今天照道理來講我為什麼請國發會副主委上來這是你國發會的責任"},{"start":243.442,"end":261.048,"text":"就整個國家的發展你們早就應該要提出更有魄力更有遠見更宏觀性至少讓我們的人口可以止跌吧沒有沒有止跌的方案所以這個是為什麼國眾兩黨今天必須提出來這個台灣未來賬戶"},{"start":263.149,"end":283.674,"text":"這一步剛剛次長講了很多說不一定可以解決少子化的問題但是至少他讓我們未來的年輕人看到國家跟你一起養的決心國家可以陪著你讓你未來政府的責任是讓你的小孩未來他在18歲的時候可以有一筆資金"},{"start":285.234,"end":302.337,"text":"不管是他要就學也好他要自己再去深造也好我們對於國家未來的主人翁我們政府負了一定的責任讓他可以安穩這樣的一個方案川普已經先講了他今年7月他也要做了"},{"start":303.098,"end":319.25,"text":"我們台灣跟進為什麼美國可以台灣不行但是我必須講我今天聽了民進黨很多委員他的這樣的一個發言從前面的程序的發言然後我們官員的報告我感到非常的失望"},{"start":320.271,"end":343.722,"text":"因為多數都還是用一種很僵化保守的心態甚至把這個議題跟弱勢的議題連結在一起這是兩件事弱勢本來政府就在照顧而部長我不同意你的是你說這個會造成資源的排擠你沒有用一個更宏觀的發展性的觀念為什麼我們對於孩子的投資就只能這些"},{"start":344.986,"end":367.843,"text":"如果這個是未來重大的國安議題為什麼不是政府我們可以用更大的資源跟力量朝野大家一起合作想出一個更好的辦法這個才叫開放的態度但上午的尋討讓我聽起來那不叫開放的態度那個就是打從心裡先抵抗就覺得不好我們看看主計總書跟財政部出的報告"},{"start":369.875,"end":384.971,"text":"都是保守再保守啊如果我們同樣政府都是這樣的心態我們的掃紙話有解嗎我就要問了我們有提出更有效的解放嗎這個是我看到我覺得我們現在政府很迫切危機如果我們"},{"start":386.383,"end":410.814,"text":"思考這麼的僵化固著我們提不出更好的方案沒有解方大概會維持這個樣子所以這個是我覺得為什麼今天希望部長你可以上台接受質詢我覺得你應該要回到你原來比較開創性的思考那個部分重新再來思考這個問題你剛剛前面第一句話講得很好政策是一種選擇"},{"start":413.086,"end":441.028,"text":"就是我們的方向性我們現在就是少子化的問題我們就應該要很嚴肅認真面對而且你的力道要夠強不要都提那個很微小的很微小的方案出來這是一個大破大裂的方案他當然會動用到一些的資源但是我們要問的是對於未來對於給予父母更大的信心是不是對台灣社會注入一股強心針我個人覺得是"},{"start":442.069,"end":447.158,"text":"所以這件事情我希望部長你應該要有一個更開放的態度來面對可以嗎"},{"start":449.733,"end":476.087,"text":"謝謝委員這樣的一些這個前瞻性的說法不過我們回頭來看我們過去對少子女化所做的這一些的投入其實沒有一條我認為沒有一條應該少他都應該做所以我的意思是應該要再加嗎只是說不要用這種後勢的觀念所以面臨到現在我們仍然沒有辦法看到成效那到底是強度要再加深"},{"start":477.027,"end":499.948,"text":"还是要另辟蹊径这个是另辟蹊径就是我们现在变成是往以后18岁以后看但是我们现在当前的是强度不够对于这种育儿的家庭他的经济的支持跟机会的成本去强化你既有的政策又外加一一加一不行吗所以我希望是"},{"start":501.041,"end":528.142,"text":"再多一點時間像剛剛很多委員也提到以公聽會的方式然後讓我們再有一點時間那部長我可不可以要求你衛福部也要認真去做功課可以嗎會 這個是我們的責任你提出你可不可以有1加1的版本你既有的政策在強化之外在外加這個版本的到底整個我們需要多少的資源另外一個國發會的副主委今天在我們朝這個方向來來努力研究"},{"start":528.942,"end":542.128,"text":"國發會的副主委齁我今天看你們報告坦白講我蠻失望的齁過去行政院一直說國發會是扮演一個總體的我們的人口政策你們應該是那個腦但是你們今天的報告不及格"},{"start":543.15,"end":561.403,"text":"什麼都沒有提到我跟委員報告就像委員說 剛剛部長說的其實人口少子兒問題設施的面向非常廣泛所以事實上現在行政院的分工裡面是由陳政委在會籍各個相關部會提出相關的規則那基本上我們國發會第一個我們發布人口的這個"},{"start":567.307,"end":588.241,"text":"那個相關的統計你們要提政策啊對那我們基本上我們在負責的部分就是因為其實人口結構會影響到人才跟人力的這個部分所以呢其實我們人才跟人力這一塊怎麼樣去做一些我覺得這個國發會你們要再更主動一點好不好"},{"start":588.821,"end":610.77,"text":"你不要什麼都是衛福部衛福部他們執行面其實事情非常的多跟委員報告其實衛福部或是陳修政委在召開相關會議的時候我們國發會都會參與我們也會從國家資源分配的角度裡面提供相關的建議因為行政院他基本上有他的這個政委的分工那我們都有參與其中的計畫"},{"start":611.57,"end":627.746,"text":"我覺得你們不夠積極 坦白講過去我看到國發會不是這樣人口政策 少子化政策都是你們在提現在變成都落到這個衛福部頭上我覺得衛福部也沒有那麼厲害所以我認為國發會還是要扮演起一個更宏觀的角度 好不好"},{"start":628.606,"end":644.256,"text":"這個好的政策應該你們來提然後去徵詢這個衛福部的意見我希望這個副主委你也很有經驗你們應該要再更積極一點因為解決少子化不是單一部會的問題是每一個部會都有責任好不好我們大家一起來努力"},{"start":644.836,"end":658.491,"text":"請大家用一個更開放的心態更前瞻的心態我們一起來思考有沒有更好的辦法讓我們的年輕人更有信心而且真的去落實國家跟你一起養政府的責任絕對不能少謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167035","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167035","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0c8a7ec04b13b971b307671192a7c66aa89ddda9214312ca7b2b7e68c96004cff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:33:05 - 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有請次長請呂次長"},{"start":16.096,"end":39.069,"text":"郭委員好 次長我想今天藍白提出的版本未來帳戶的內容當中我不曉得部長有沒有仔細去跟他瞭解看過條文內容包圍有有條文內容當中你有沒有看到他第三條當中把金額的部分定義在多少多少我老實說就條文的內容當中我第一個是覺得奇怪是把金額放在這個定義當中"},{"start":40.41,"end":58.957,"text":"另外一個部分定義跟定義之間還有一個矛盾的地方也就是第三條的部分它限定自存自困款每年10萬企業5萬然後到第12條的時候又規定主管機關每年公告調整金額到底是10萬為受限還是主管機關可以調整這又是矛盾的地方是的 沒錯"},{"start":59.897,"end":76.976,"text":"第三個部分在他第18條的部分的說明當中內容當中其實我看得出來藍杯版本是copy這個川普的版本的內容川普的版本內容就所謂的合格投資標的合格投資標的是什麼也不清楚"},{"start":77.837,"end":99.585,"text":"美国的合格投资标的标准跟台湾会相同吗这是第三个矛盾的地方第四个矛盾的地方这基金费用的部分不得高于0.1%就实务上来说台湾没有任何一个基金这ETF的基金代钞的费用是在0.1%的市场上不可能"},{"start":100.485,"end":119.934,"text":"市場上甚至有高達1%的當然 越低當然是越好但事實上是不符合現實因為美國的整個資本市場很大數十兆美金跟台灣的整個資本市場的規模又不同所以說就版本內容當中藍白確實有許多令人訝異的地方"},{"start":120.814,"end":147.692,"text":"但是我也必須說藍白的這個內容當中我們不要全然的否定因為它相對於這個衛福部現在的版本當中它把儲蓄擴充到投資把存量擴充到流量我覺得為什麼會有這樣的概念的出來也就是說既有的賬戶兒少賬戶當中有它的限制的所在一來對象的限制二來整個資金的運用的限制"},{"start":149.213,"end":169.585,"text":"第三呢是不是能夠保底的限制如果我初估衛福部的這個版本內容當中你們夯不夯當以18那每個月最高金額你們有三種金額1250來計算的話也不過拿到5418年後的54萬是算什麼我想加上CPI的部分大家都非常清楚恐怕相對的貶值的不少"},{"start":170.405,"end":184.425,"text":"那衛福部站在整個部本位的角度當中會思考就是說我要濟貧我要針對弱勢兒童我當然可以理解但是我們今天的整個法案的出發點是從一個少子化的一個問題來做出發"},{"start":185.646,"end":205.914,"text":"少子化的問題就不再把過去養育養兒育女的責任視為家庭的責任情況底下變成養兒育女的責任國家也有責任否則的話就不會像衛福部所提的107年到114年你投入了5900多億的原因就在這邊啊就國家也有責任嘛"},{"start":207.514,"end":232.48,"text":"只是說藍白的版本中比較不負責任的部分就不願意讓家庭負責任卻讓國家負擔了過多的責任也就是這個財責的部分讓國家負擔過多這其實是不一定是好的事情也就是比例拿捏的部分去思考說國家跟政府國家跟家庭之間要如何去分擔這個共同的責任這我是同意的但是偏重於哪一方"},{"start":233.42,"end":253.032,"text":"這可能要好好的拿捏跟取捨同樣的道理這個少子化的問題也不應該偏重個別的一個部會譬如講偏重在衛福部我覺得沒有道理啊從國發會高度的角度 高福祖也在這邊啊金管會的角色我認為就應該要提升嘛就應該要提升嘛所以其實衛福部其實不用故步自封"},{"start":254.053,"end":272.971,"text":"你是可以開創一個比較open的一個態度出來就是說你應該去思考如何將既有的這個儲蓄老實講儲蓄是錢啊要怎麼變多錢啊這是重要的嘛那你如果是擔心說投資有風險那如果這樣子勞動基金用錢可以撤掉啦對不對"},{"start":273.892,"end":299.243,"text":"投資當然有風險啊勞動基金以前的成效歷史的經驗市場的法則我們都可以判斷出來嘛所以既然是這樣子我們就大膽的把這個儲蓄開放成投資的一個概念嘛那也不要局限於本部的概念針對弱勢兒童而已嘛弱勢兒童要處理很簡單嘛本席就提出一個版本弱勢家庭由政府權而補助就是保弱勢的方式嘛"},{"start":300.163,"end":324.062,"text":"你就用這種條款就處理掉啦你就說一般的家庭他可能提薄一千二弱勢的家庭就是兩千四這就保弱勢不排戶然後照顧全民的兒童全部的兒童不要分階級這樣的情況底下才能真正全面性的去照顧所謂的這個少子化的一個問題啊"},{"start":325.816,"end":339.982,"text":"如果說國家的資源投入沒有幫助的話世界上沒有任何一個報告這樣寫我們就不願意做的話那相對的邏輯國家資源投入六千億那會有什麼幫助呢難道還要再寫一份報告來思考嗎"},{"start":340.982,"end":356.442,"text":"然後我們只要投放到10歲之後到12歲他要使用的話我們也部分提波限制他的使用用途那18歲之後結清賬戶鼓勵投資的方式來做思考如果要限制用途 當然也OK"},{"start":357.81,"end":374.348,"text":"那管理很簡單啦 管理不用衛福部啦管理只要用經管會的角度來做思考因為成立委員會在經管會這種事情啊 老實講啊非常簡單啊以前的TISA就是一個管理委員會的概念嘛"},{"start":375.169,"end":403.551,"text":"什麼投資標的是適合的反向ETF不適合槓桿操作過大的不適合我們都應該把它排除有一個委員會在審查這適當的一個標的那另外更重要的就是剛剛我提到了要一個保本的概念本期提出一個保本的概念不同於過去兩年的一個定期的一個利率應該再加上CPI的這個年增率通膨的年增率這可能確定保本"},{"start":404.532,"end":418.107,"text":"所以如果是這樣子的話一年的經費也不會像藍白的版本高達1423概估上是如此本期概估上大概279億如果是用這種方式來做兼顧一來"},{"start":420.125,"end":433.765,"text":"從儲蓄到投資兩種功能兼具也就是成立一個台灣兒少這個儲投投儲這一個專戶的概念的話這個部長 次長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":434.708,"end":461.013,"text":"包委員我覺得我們確實今天也是來聆聽委員以及各方的意見只要對於民眾有利我想我們都願意來仔細聆聽委員也是確實在這個部分我想這個非常欽佩剛剛也點出很多就是相關的問題但是最重要現在我知道委員現在目前三個重點第一個我們現在目前就是從存量到流量第二個從儲蓄到投資第三個所得上面"},{"start":461.993,"end":481.458,"text":"我們的對象上面也來擴充我想只要是對民眾有利我想我們都願意來擴充之外還有保底然後一部分限制用途的考量也就是說我會鼓勵衛福部還有或金管會或國安會站在一個國家的高度當中提出相對的版本"},{"start":483.138,"end":498.458,"text":"提出一個相對的版本來跟藍白對話當然我也鼓勵藍白應該有相對的雅量等到行政院版本出來本席的版本也在連署當中既然是公共政策 我想召委會這種態度不會討論各一的版本而已"},{"start":499.059,"end":518.673,"text":"我們希望尋求更多的一個共識然後凝聚更好的一個制度能夠化解台灣目前國安的危機來面對這個少子化的問題問題非常的多包括這個呢兒童的部分我本來是用一個當大人ETF的概念它以後可以衍生衍生變成是兒童版TISA的概念"},{"start":519.574,"end":533.964,"text":"TESA的概念當中過往免稅的部分當然我們的護稅署是護稅第一是保護的護這個護稅署一向都是聽到稅就不想要任何的動護稅署署長你要不要上來一下"},{"start":534.844,"end":557.444,"text":"你剛剛講說美國那個訊息你可能要去調整一下啦可能不是你說的這樣子啦但是呢你不如想想日本的這個NISA的部分它的免稅額度NISA 2.0到現在還高達一升當中300萬我們是不是要思考一下兒童的部分把它做放到100萬來思考"},{"start":560.767,"end":587.421,"text":"來突破來作為化解台灣少子化危機上的一個租稅工具的一個調整有沒有可能報告委員不管是美國或是英國現在所謂這個兒少專戶的一些相關設計還有剛才委員提到日本的NISA賬戶他們都是沒有所謂的租就是他們在提撥的時候是沒有租稅優惠他們是指那個所得那個本文"},{"start":588.101,"end":605.642,"text":"那個委員概帖是本金所產生的利息跟資息可以免但不是說他在前頭提撥的時候可以扣除不是前頭提撥是總Totally是累積的概念沒有錯我是累積的概念你至少在這部分把它化解掉嘛"},{"start":606.343,"end":626.471,"text":"化解掉的話會鼓勵大家願意來投入這個賬戶這樣的情況底下我跟藍白之間版本不一樣他是全部幾乎把責任歸附的國家那我們的部分呢是相對的是說當我政府要相對提撥的時候你的自存戶你要先有作為嘛你自存戶先提的時候我再提嘛這財政負擔"},{"start":627.972,"end":655.409,"text":"我相信就會少了很多啦那國家的責任也會有但是國家跟家庭共同來面對這個少子化問題我也希望這複稅署能夠開放心胸我們思考更好的制度好不好謝謝 郭國文委員我們都會配合會配合太好了會配合那也請那個次長次長是少子化的專家啦他剛剛說他是少子化的專家就麻煩一下好好研究一下謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝郭國文委員發言"}]}},{"id":"167034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167034","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce002fc2e86c985d593307671192a7c66aa89ddda9214312ca7e588b5cd50b116635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:23:58 - 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那我說這因為你現在有剩下3.5成的小朋友沒有參與 你們的那個解決方法是什麼有嗎 有在想辦法經濟上的問題應該是最主要的一個因素好 那我們看下一個"},{"start":292.89,"end":303.041,"text":"就是說現在的我們的台灣的未來帳戶我看到第7條是說辦理台灣未來帳戶的相關工作經費來源是來自我們的那個特別預算嗎可以請勞動部這邊來回答嗎勞動部OK好謝謝"},{"start":316.462,"end":326.193,"text":"我們是明定編列4500億的特別預算前明確排除預算法第23條不得不得不得充經常支出的限制這些"},{"start":328.145,"end":353.039,"text":"報告委員有關於目前我們勞動部這邊在相關的一個不管是農退或者是勞動我們的一個勞退制度上面的一個設計由勞保局這邊來做收支保管那基金運用局這邊來做投資運用那相關在制度的執行過程中都需要相關的人力配套以及相關的經費還有我們在任何一個制度開發的任何一個制度要建置之前"},{"start":353.439,"end":371.736,"text":"我們都有相當時間的一個資訊建置期間那我們在相關的報告裡面有提到說相關的人力部分因為以目前我們的內部業務現在所做的跟今天在談的一個帳戶帳戶是一個全新的帳戶管理那這部分我們現行的業務上面並沒有相關的一個經驗所以這部分必須要做相關的一個盤點"},{"start":372.757,"end":399.903,"text":"好 謝謝那再請衛福部處長那就針對我們看的一些經驗來看那就是英國的那個失敗的案例沒錯那就失敗的案例2005年到2011年他其實我覺得我在看了以後他的最主要的應該是溝通的失敗吧或者是說家屬就是家長的參與參與度沒有很高或者說他根本就不知道有這些帳戶所以應該不是我覺得應該不是基金的"},{"start":400.743,"end":424.246,"text":"所謂的錢的規模或者是說剛才所講的那些行政的這些繁瑣或者是流程常常都是因為lack of communication or awareness其實是佔了絕大部分所以如果說我們針對這次如果國中兩黨的版本通過或者是加上以後我們公聽會有執政黨的版本的話我是不是要著重在這方面這幾個缺失比如說家長的參與度"},{"start":425.447,"end":453.05,"text":"然后你把这些或者是说对这项政策的一个认知或者是说你对这个整件事情的一个知道的一个程度知情嘛那还有一个就是说政府跟我们儿少的一些家庭的一些沟通的能力所以我觉得如果这件事情要成功的话应该是要我们借进英国的一些失败的一个原因然后把它补正"},{"start":453.61,"end":464.489,"text":"然後當然他一個現在的做法就是說他們可能政府的投入的資金已經變成像是零現在叫GISA也就是說GISA沒錯對所以"},{"start":466.226,"end":494.598,"text":"政府的角度可能是站在一個監督或者是說一個平台而不是在一個他的所謂的把所有的很多的資金放在那裡面所以他才會有一個成功的面向是不是這些都可以來討論幫委員三個重點第一個我所看過的paper英國的案例最重要事實上是因為2008年金融危機所以政府裁員無以為繼所導致的是第一點另外第二點正因為裁員沒有辦法確定所以這個"},{"start":495.839,"end":515.178,"text":"如果蓋起來如果蓋到一半變成爛尾樓這個我想可能就會導致您剛剛所說的只有現有那些繼續繼續繳然後變成是一個死錢在那邊政府就沒辦法所以我想這個會影響到很多很多的很多家的這個家庭所以我想這個必須要謹慎為之最重要的我想剛剛主計主計書這邊有說明裁員必須"},{"start":518.362,"end":532.641,"text":"就是說你要編預算91條的規定就是你要尋找有裁員我想這個才是對於民眾最大的權益保障對 那麼還是希望朝野能夠有一個努力的方向然後希望把這些事情做好 謝謝好 非常感謝盧委員 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第三個必要時修正其他法規的一個配套那以現在目前提出來的台灣未來帳戶的條例來看的話 請問有徵詢過行政院嗎"},{"start":78.767,"end":97.638,"text":"根本沒報告除了預算法第九十一條之外在財政紀律法還有還有財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一都有相同的規定那我先問就是現在我剛講的那三個法律要件到底做到哪哪項哪幾項目前我們所知現在是都還沒有跟行政部門來"},{"start":100.044,"end":125.553,"text":"類似所以還不知道那個彌補資金的來源還有整個其他如果修正的話那個配套措施是什麼所以這個條例還規定說經費要優先移用前年度的稅計那個剩餘甚至舉借債務的資應請問主席總署這邊這個規定如果沒有跟行政院討論的話對我們的政府財政的影響是什麼"},{"start":128.036,"end":153.025,"text":"這裡面的總經費要達到4500億等同一年他就平均一年是要增加大概340幾億340幾億那我們現在的舉債空間算出來大概就只有1800多億在扣除國防扣除國防平均每年大概要1560億頂多只剩下大概300億的空間那我們每年的"},{"start":154.406,"end":179.246,"text":"科技還有公共建設還有我們依法律支出每年這些經費大概要成長5%那每年大概就要花到大約是1200多億所以每年的稅率的成長數大概用到這些就不夠了如果說要在這一筆下去的話那可能就需要排擠到我們其他的一個就是排擠到其他的政策"},{"start":181.287,"end":200.281,"text":"未有說明吧就是這個是一個選擇啦你選擇做這個你可能就會排擠到我們其他的支出以上所以我最後再確認一次如果這個條例沒有符合上述的法律要件如果今天假設真的諸條審查的話被強行通過最後三讀的話是不是又會出現有違法疑慮的條例"},{"start":202.283,"end":219.943,"text":"預算法跟財政紀律法有財政措施法法都很明確的規定對於大筆的支出還需要先指名彌補的財源這一次的金額高達4500億元目前也還沒有和行政部門來做一個溝通我覺得應該還是要謹慎"},{"start":222.611,"end":251.192,"text":"所以這就是我們擔心如果立法委員都覺得自己提的事實上是福國利民的法律案的話那我真的想問憲法跟預算法為什麼還要設這些規定各位那就不用啦為什麼不讓立法委員自己想加多少就加多少還要徵詢行政機關這跟財政紀律到底有什麼關係可是我們財政紀律法是講得非常的清楚所以我很擔心說如果有人現在甚至有沒有想法是說今天在這邊質詢一下就算徵詢行政院"},{"start":251.992,"end":280.917,"text":"接下來就要強推上下那我就要請你回到財政紀律也回到我們的4-268號的解釋的原因要防止政府的預算突然膨脹的話那造成人民增加人民的負擔的話那就是要落實我們的責任政治所以請問主席總署你認為今天質詢完就可以增加預算人嗎要從預算編列落實到責任政治的話應該怎麼做"},{"start":282.319,"end":294.424,"text":"我們那個立法院具有預算的審議權但是預算的權是在行政院像類似這種金額非常龐大我們認為還是需要由行政部門來做一個審慎的評估"},{"start":297.048,"end":315.66,"text":"所以最後我大概要再三強調如果沒有妥善的規劃真的是上一個政策會變成是全民的災難如果未來帳戶如果要最後要舉債來買單的話這到底是投資未來還是在跟未來借錢這有多麼諷刺謝謝主席總說請回那接下來請衛福部的次長請女次長"},{"start":322.387,"end":339.603,"text":"市長我們就來討論完善的規劃剛好在問經費預算有沒有違憲因為有時候除了經費預算的話應該更關鍵的是政策內容我要先講清楚要解決重大議題不是不能花錢該花就花可是要先搞清楚"},{"start":340.803,"end":356.713,"text":"這筆錢到底為什麼要編要解決什麼問題這個未來賬戶的法案說明五花八門引用各國的政策這樣依照你現在看到的條例內容暗由立法說明你認為這到底是什麼樣的一個法案因為講了第一條就講了"},{"start":357.193,"end":373.896,"text":"大概五個目標那一個政策要解決五個目標只有一個帳戶裡面要能夠解決五個目標那你們過去掃紙花花一千多億從很辛苦的要做兒托生育補助還有教育的支持準攻非營利幼兒園"},{"start":375.037,"end":392.148,"text":"這些都要一一的來做推動甚至給我們的保姆的政策跟托嬰中心的準攻甚至普設托嬰中心還在做親子館這些事情所以不知道你覺得這法案到底要解決什麼問題還是能夠解決貧富差距跟培養人才"},{"start":393.249,"end":420.377,"text":"非常感謝委員的意見我先簡單說明一下我們在過去8年總共政府已經投入5931億已經投入將近快6000億這是第一點另外第二點我必須要在這邊說我想提出這一個特別條例我想當然大家都非常關心但是我們在立法的時候不能只談理想不談代價"},{"start":422.362,"end":439.774,"text":"不能只談理想不談代價那你覺得有沒有會影響到什麼因為這13年就要花到4033億喔只靠一個帳戶的政治操作政策操作的話可以一次滿足這麼多政策目標嗎那你們有沒有評估"},{"start":440.735,"end":461.544,"text":"我們的國民黨有沒有跟你討論 跟你們討論過是 包委員 目前就是說以這個第一條的這個相關的這個五大目標這個是我在這邊的這一個過去的研究顯現大概基本上利益良善這一個理念也不錯 但是恐怕方法會有誤導"},{"start":462.384,"end":483.528,"text":"也會有問題這裡面簡單來說這個目標很好但是呢這裡面的這個策略跟方法恐怕不僅為蒙其利反受其害剛剛也說了就是說在這裡面本來要解決現在當期兒童的問題最後可能會載留子孫而且會複製現有的一個整個階級的不平衡"},{"start":484.128,"end":507.615,"text":"最後的結果恐怕要甚思啦而且根本恐怕是沒辦法解決目前現有的少子女化問題因為釐清這件事情非常重要這牽扯到後面政策規劃要怎麼定成效怎麼檢驗這麼龐大的預算會不會排擠到我非常關心的像托育教育尤其我至為關心的社福的資源為什麼我這樣問"},{"start":509.395,"end":526.462,"text":"不要沒有看見差異跟弱勢最後就是變成是排平跟擴大貧富差距因為我們在很多政策都看到同一件事情只要不是專門鎖定弱勢最後就會出現參與落差低收入家庭參與的"},{"start":527.842,"end":541.528,"text":"會變成比較少拿的也比較少資源有限的時候本來就應該優先照顧弱勢可是這個條例看不到差異化的一個設計我也看不出來它到底要怎麼如條文所說的去解決貧富差距"},{"start":542.648,"end":570.597,"text":"所以很現實的我們來講那個現實就好就教育發展帳戶的經驗很清楚低收入中低收入家庭常常入不敷出最大問題他就是沒辦法開發穩定的來做存錢所以我就直接問如果中低收入家庭連條件相對優渥的教育發展帳戶都難穩定繳存的話那他們還有餘率去繳這個未來帳戶嗎反而如果通過的話從社會公平正義的角度上來看你怎麼看這兩個帳戶的關係"},{"start":571.897,"end":589.578,"text":"是 包委員 陳儒剛委員剛剛所說的其實對於我們很多很多那個低所得者請教都不可能再去拔光所以就是因為這樣所以我們才來弄這個條例我們讓他一比一的這一個部分另外剛剛陳儒 賴委員剛剛也有提到"},{"start":590.399,"end":619.974,"text":"我們不是只有台積電還有這個高科技我們也有很多港口人外送員還有中小企業這是我們每次要去照顧的你這樣是不是會造成我們現有的就是你的爸媽因為在台積電或者說在這個高所得那你現在就可以來有這個Machine Fund還有國家還要給你這個開戶金我是覺得恐怕會有複製現在目前現有的貧富差距不僅沒有解決反而擴大了"},{"start":620.134,"end":638.893,"text":"所以真的要慎重所以这样我也一直在关心现有的儿童及少年未来教育跟发展账户能不能让更多真正需要的孩子被纳进来得到更多支持没错可是现在看到这账户的资格是跟着社会救助法走我从年初就一直找卫福部跟民团谈那个社会救助法"},{"start":639.494,"end":665.949,"text":"那我就直接問次長我前兩個月代理我們的主持未還委員會考察社會救助跟貧窮的時候團體就很清楚指出需你所收入把人卡在門外民間也倡議要用自述所得來補漏洞你們12月29號次長你自己也跟團體開過會可是還是卡在此題所以你們現在願不願意改還是你們有沒有具體的做法要調整"},{"start":666.489,"end":688.571,"text":"家庭收入的计算方式把净贫但真正有需求的家庭纳进来让真正的发展账户可以保护到更多需要的儿少非常感谢委员这个问题这个命题大概有两个部分第一个我先跟委员报告我们现在目前现有的台湾的社会救助其实从广义来说不是只有低收中低收其实还包括八大津贴"},{"start":689.605,"end":708.779,"text":"那如果把低收中低收當然是2.15但是如果把八大津貼算進來我跟委員報告我們事實上是cover了8.6%所以我們現在目前如果從這個廣義的部分比如說未來我只是說假設未來我們可以把這一個就是牛領津貼的我們或許也可以來納入考量這是第一點"},{"start":709.039,"end":730.769,"text":"另外第二點剛剛委員也垂行到就是有關於社會救助法的這一個部分自訴所得我跟委員報告我們現在目前都在進行相關的一個研擬但是我也跟委員報告現在就是說反正我們現在目前會朝一個大概什麼時候會好因為已經很多次因為我從我們一進來就一直認為社會救助法應該是優先法案真的要幫助弱勢"},{"start":731.989,"end":746.722,"text":"不能讓弱勢在空等我覺得時間真的是不等小孩啦所以呢孩子都長大了結果他還是弱勢在貧窮線那邊所以希望你們可以盡速啦當然我也覺得說今天真的好好談這個未來賬戶的這個議題"},{"start":748.303,"end":771.838,"text":"因為少子女的話不是單一原因造成的要解決就要多管齊下也要請你們也是好好去思考這件事情還有把一千億集中在未來帳戶這一個工具我看不出來這是會是怎麼樣一個有效的方法可能你們是不是也要朝向是說整個的未來教育跟發展帳戶可以怎麼去思考擴大我們的需求讓弱勢的孩子獲得照顧"},{"start":772.458,"end":785.059,"text":"是 報告委員 那個其實卓院長其實也在元旦那邊他有一個裁示就是我們會操擴大的這一個那個弱勢優先的原則來推動 謝謝好 謝謝昭緯 謝謝我們的次長是 感謝祐勤委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167039","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167039","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce06052be4761059f8ae6ea9f55fbd6b8757fca8e6801c49bdd9be7746c6163105b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:44:50 - 11:01:24","影片長度":"00:16:34","會議時間":"2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請考試院秘書長、銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處人事長、內政部、教育部、行政院主計總處針對「立法院通過之警、消、公、教退休金改革法案之具體執行措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（ㄧ）委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳宗憲等22人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百零四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第九十三條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、併案審查\n（一）委員翁曉玲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林倩綺等21人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零八條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-12","start_time":"2026-01-12T10:44:50+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-12T11:01:24+08:00","duration":994,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.278468750000002,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.41221875,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.63159375,"end":18.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.399093750000002,"end":25.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.406593750000003,"end":32.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.03846875,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.34159375,"end":38.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.63659375,"end":45.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.142843750000004,"end":40.244093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":40.244093750000005,"end":40.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.41284375,"end":40.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.18409375,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.81659375,"end":52.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.61346875,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.66596875,"end":77.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.36909375,"end":87.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.84846875000001,"end":91.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.22346875000001,"end":108.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.80721875,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.67096875000001,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.47159375000001,"end":128.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.66909375,"end":131.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.60096875000002,"end":138.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.97971875000002,"end":148.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.49284375000002,"end":156.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.18784375,"end":184.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.38596875000002,"end":188.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.49096875,"end":192.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.08096875,"end":194.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.66721875000002,"end":203.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.35346875000002,"end":204.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.06221875,"end":205.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.26034375,"end":210.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.37346875,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.55034375000002,"end":224.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.26159375,"end":227.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.50159375,"end":230.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.60659375,"end":241.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":241.68096875,"end":244.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.90846875000003,"end":251.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.48534375000003,"end":267.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.87096875000003,"end":272.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.13596875,"end":276.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.13534375,"end":285.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.09596875,"end":292.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.96409375,"end":301.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":302.04284375000003,"end":305.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.86096875000004,"end":306.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":306.86909375000005,"end":317.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.93596875000003,"end":312.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.14596875,"end":335.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.29221875,"end":326.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":336.13034375,"end":355.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.21721875000003,"end":347.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.48721875,"end":348.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.48284375000003,"end":348.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.78659375,"end":348.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.82034375,"end":349.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.03971875,"end":349.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.49534375,"end":349.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04"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謝謝主席辛苦了我們非常遺憾在今年司法法治委員會居然是讓年改走回頭路那我想先請問兩位你們知道工都盟針對2025年的國會亂象有做出了一個年度代表字你們知道是什麼嗎不好意思 我沒有注意"},{"start":39.71,"end":66.733,"text":"我不知道好 我這個謎底揭曉你們一定很有感就是毀啊毀憲亂政的毀啊我們司法法制是第一線是非常的感同身受啊不管是今天刑事訴訟法這種個案是為個人量身定做的修法或者是一再的禁覆二讀不義而絕的這種暴衝式粗糙的立法或修法"},{"start":68.275,"end":86.835,"text":"誘惑甚至是我們司法法制委員會的民主討論是最欠缺的我上週到未還委員會去審查人工生殖法我赫然發現原來在司法法制委員會已經消失已久的民主討論我很高興在其他委員會依舊可以踐行"},{"start":87.916,"end":106.425,"text":"我們在人工生殖法的討論光討論名稱跟條文第一條都保留就花了將近兩個小時主席不會限制每個委員只能三分鐘發言主席也不會限制只能一次發言主席更不會把立委的多元意見的傳達來消音"},{"start":108.906,"end":131.204,"text":"所以說一個制度的毀壞真的是讓我們都要去深思喔這人民的票選的這個毀對應於今天的修法大家都應當慎重的去反除甚至我們不能接受什麼叫做先求有再求好這種立法的思維下一頁"},{"start":132.937,"end":156.23,"text":"年改表決走回頭路年金永續成空 世代爭議也不見了今天的爭點有兩個第一個 翁小玲委員要求我們要返還兩年的退休義扣的退休金事實上關鍵就在於剛剛秘書長已經清楚的說明了就是條文在修正的時候"},{"start":157.487,"end":184.199,"text":"並沒有去定施行日期嘛所以說我們依據過去中央法規標準法13條的規定施行日期就是發佈之日起的三日發生效力嘛這是立法者自己要知道的ABC嘛自己在修法的時候沒有把施行日期的配套思考清楚現在反要求我們要去違法要去把兩年的義扣退休金一併要返還"},{"start":185.439,"end":211.952,"text":"自己修法修不好還要怪全序部真的是毀啦 整座海料料啊 整座都毀啦所以這個部分不該做的不能夠逼考試院來違法行政嘛這是第一個爭點你們早上我的意見理解有沒有錯誤沒有好第二個呢就是在我們試算的那個期限剛剛部長說"},{"start":213.615,"end":241.005,"text":"至少大概六個月因為幾個原因要系統要再重做那還有要跟當事人確認嘛對不對中間又卡一個過年今年過年的年假又不再等我想問一下我們過去在2017年修正年改法案那是進步性的修法的時候我們的準備期是有入法吧"},{"start":241.858,"end":258.669,"text":"對 我們給了一年的實施期間所以當時 過渡期間當時的立法者就沒有發生這種普隆功的 幾週還料料的修法嘛清楚的入法 也給予我們相關的行政部門一個合理作業的時間 試算然後通知當事人"},{"start":259.389,"end":285.439,"text":"所以給了一年 而且當時是入法嘛 對不對那為什麼過去的立法院做得到現在的立法院這麼的 這麼的粗糙這個水準水平真的是走回頭路啊 跟年改一樣 都走回頭路啊那去年的這個警消條例的修法有入法嗎 準備期 也沒有就沒有嘛 這非常符合這一屆國會的特色就是完全沒有把配套想清楚"},{"start":286.175,"end":301.126,"text":"沒有入法沒有像2017年的年改非常嚴謹的給予你們入法的一年的合一的準備期那警消條例也沒有修法也沒有入法但是你們就警消條例試算的這些的經驗值那時候花了多少時間"},{"start":302.09,"end":313.935,"text":"我們大概前前後後也差不多半年啦就是半年是起跳的嘛就是到半年左右我們把最後的審定函發出去那前面就有很多開始做系統更換測試還有確認這樣一個陸陸續續的過程"},{"start":317.436,"end":335.769,"text":"雖然警消人員條例我們現在釋憲中所以雖然暫時沒有執行要等釋憲的結果但是我們也依法律通過你們也去啟動了這個試算而那個半年的時間現在運用在年改的這個案子就是合宜的"},{"start":336.309,"end":354.9,"text":"我們內部事實上是真的做評估我必須尊重同仁作業的那個所以在警消的部分大概當初預估到有4萬個案件那這個呢是我們要重新發出18萬的一個肯定雖然案件有簡單有比較複雜但是我們都希望一起"},{"start":356.44,"end":370.447,"text":"所以六個月真的只是一個合宜時間的最低標準我還很擔心你剛講警消影響是4萬多人這一次公教反年改是18萬所以說委員不要再為難考試院了"},{"start":371.707,"end":386.718,"text":"要不然當初修法的時候自己把配套準備期的時間定清楚嘛所以說真的是整週海料料下一頁你們已經提出釋憲文了是民進黨團也將在本週或下週就會遞案"},{"start":388.479,"end":417.819,"text":"我們期待憲法法庭除了受理釋憲也希望能夠做出暫時處分就我們期待唯有做出暫時處分才能夠讓民進黨團我們所主張的這個年該走回頭路停下來但如果即便送釋憲暫時處分也還沒有出來包括我們尊重大法官是否受理所有的作業程序都是朝要進行要終止的方向所以沒有不執行這個也要講清楚來秘書長"},{"start":419.159,"end":447.728,"text":"因為現在法律已經公佈生效所以在相關的處置上都會合法所以說這個社會也會有些誤解說年改過了你們又不執行事實上當憲法法庭已經恢復運作我們申請釋憲然後希望憲法法庭能夠做出合宜的暫時處分的處分否則我們都還是照法律通過的準備在進行相關的作業審定工作本身就是執行的第一步"},{"start":448.548,"end":471.906,"text":"那這個是需要時間 第一個是不能出錯第二個是不能讓同仁過勞 也不能操之過急去倉促上路所以我希望你們能夠把作業做得嚴謹絕對不能先求有再求好這個也是 李歡迎的壞習慣不要傳染到其他的憲政機關來 部長要補充沒有錯 全局部對於退休案件的審定一向高度嚴謹所以我們一定不能出錯"},{"start":472.786,"end":497.042,"text":"但是這需要作業時間因為這關乎每一位公教人員的權益我們一定會努力做但是我們不想讓他做一個出錯又一堆重新又回來重新要更改所以立法委員自己急救張爆充式的這種壞習慣真的不要強加在其他憲政機關身上好 兩位請回那我請司法院的複密也請法務部的次長不好意思 暫用多一點點時間許次"},{"start":503.447,"end":521.765,"text":"今天對於刑事訴訟法的惡修鼓勵篡政篡到保讓共犯權解套我當然覺得這個是萬萬不可我們絕對反對 下一頁但我要先問我要感謝也肯定這個法務部在中國對於我國檢察官被列他們的台獨打手"},{"start":522.566,"end":551.505,"text":"跟吳思瑤同級 我也是台獨打手但沒有想到我們的司法人員也被這樣子的對待我肯定你們第一時間部長就出來喊話這是傷害台灣的司法獨立中國沒有權利長臂管轄 跨境鎮壓更重要的是 不要傷害台灣的司法主權這是台灣的司法主權下一頁但是呢 我就覺得你們有一個部分就沒有做得特別到位了"},{"start":552.746,"end":576.646,"text":"這麼多的人公然挑戰司法的公信力包括傅坤祺總召公然對社會說 怕賤人沒有背兩三條案怕賣大賣啦這種做法就是社會非常負面的示範包括館長他自己恐嚇國家元首被起訴他居然還來做這種"},{"start":578.325,"end":598.327,"text":"要求總統出庭不出庭就是冤案又開始來民粹跟司法操弄了包括蔡正元三中案定案了以後國民黨黨主席還頒給他實踐一等獎章國民黨是上上下下在鼓勵犯罪嗎"},{"start":599.808,"end":626.007,"text":"還有前兩天看到蔡正元先生跟柯文哲前主席公然非常挑釁的做了一個合拍秀出他們的電子交流所以網路上大家盛傳說到底台灣社會怎麼了這些對於社會的輿論都有影響力的政治人物公然的都來做這些鼓勵犯罪或是摧毀司法公信力的這些操作"},{"start":627.808,"end":635.121,"text":"對應於剛剛我們對於國台辦對台灣的司法人員的這種威嚇跨境鎮壓我們第一時間的來反制"},{"start":636.263,"end":659.381,"text":"我真的覺得台灣的法治教育不能夠海嘹嘹啊我們都參加扶輪社啊扶輪社每年多努力的我們都有這個法治教育委員會去各個學校各個社區推廣正確的法治教育但是當這些人都不斷的在用他的影響力來愚弄司法愚弄民粹的時候你們要do something啊"},{"start":661.824,"end":687.185,"text":"複密跟次長這個部分你們好像就都當然尊重了這他們的言論自由可是站在法律教育法治教育的角色我認為我們不能一再姑息來次長回答我想他們相關人政治人物他的言行社會自由公斷那我想捍衛司法公信力應該是全民都應該來信守來支持的"},{"start":688.172,"end":712.219,"text":"強化法治教育好嗎?當我們知道國內的政治人物搭配著中共的認知作戰都在摧毀台灣的司法主權的時候我們還是要去做必要的事還是要做必要的事 要不然就害怕那些大小的孩子要大胃就要犯法整個社會最大在野黨在鼓勵犯罪我們不能縱容好 下一頁"},{"start":713.806,"end":735.073,"text":"今天這個提案人黃國昌委員到美國去了所以說他的提案是自己不敢面對嗎我也不知道 落跑的真是時間提案人就是黃國昌他自己不敢面對下一頁我來講重點了就是我們法務部反對的幾個理由刑事訴訟法不能被惡修因為我們必須要保全證據我們要"},{"start":738.382,"end":757.559,"text":"不能夠影響打擊犯罪向上溯源的這些作為而且羈押制度不能因為個案受到摧毀對不對淪為犯罪者的保護傘更重要的是現行羈押處分是法官保留法官以比率原則來審定就是確保他的最小傷害"},{"start":758.3,"end":785.582,"text":"大法官釋字392號就很清楚的說負面應當很清楚就是檢察官只有申請權但是就是法官保留只有法官擁有這個權利所以說我們這樣子的要求都是大法官釋字大法官又說話了但立法院又要違憲了我具體還調出我下一頁剛剛大家都講了詐騙集團 毒品都是這些串證者的大宗"},{"start":786.443,"end":801.587,"text":"尤其呢這個電信詐欺的九成的案件也都是透過串證可能讓他逃之夭夭喔所以說我調出司法院的統計報告說過去20年來從2007到2022其實我們當時的准雨積壓率在2007到2014年大概是11700多件但是到"},{"start":813.008,"end":827.937,"text":"14年的時候就是腰斬減少變一半6000件換言之就是法官保留越為謹慎嘛對不對但是呢後來在20232024又幾乎又回到15年前的羈押數原因是什麼"},{"start":829.195,"end":857.172,"text":"就是因為打詐嘛就是因為打詐的需求嘛所以說這是一個新興犯罪社會有共識的事情如果在沒有這些惡意的去篡證湮滅證據的這些打詐詐欺毒品或是性侵的案件如果沒有這些事情的話我們可以回到一個合宜的法官保留他會在侵害最小最小保護的那個原則裡頭去拿捏嘛"},{"start":858.272,"end":868.1,"text":"所以說這個事情黃國昌委員從頭到尾他的提案都是毫無正當性只是為了個案的修法所以我再一次的表達喔"},{"start":869.693,"end":892.584,"text":"我們不要為詐騙集團來脫罪不要讓組織犯罪者獲得保護傘不要為某些政黨的偽造連署讓它成為台灣民主的常態我們也不鼓勵一些竊取國家核心技術譬如說台積電泄密案的這些人可以因為刪除了串證的要件"},{"start":895.788,"end":912.399,"text":"而讓這種竊取國家核心技術的人他可以逃之夭夭當然對於虐童對於兒少性犯罪還有對於共諜的滲透共諜滲透也是這一類非常需要去防範的對象"},{"start":914.266,"end":935.773,"text":"所以如果在野黨執意要把這個二修又要爆充式的修法又要先求有再求好亂修一通最後事情大條了再來趕快修回來司法法制太擅長了啦法院組織法法庭直播不是這樣嗎自己進附二讀修壞了然後再來遷怒於司法院"},{"start":937.079,"end":961.302,"text":"我們不容刑事訴訟法再這樣被惡修何況今天提案人黃國昌自己都畏罪潛逃所以我是建議主席提案人不在我們今天很難討論他怎麼去闡述他的提案的意旨呢當提案人自己都不願意面對了都自己都不敢面對了那我們何必"},{"start":963.126,"end":970.44,"text":"這樣認真的替他審查他的議案呢所以說如果刑事訴訟法被惡修而提案人又不在場"},{"start":972.25,"end":993.366,"text":"那我覺得這樣子的討論是非常沒有踐行民主的原則我們也要尊重黃國昌提案人的權益不是嗎他應當到場來為自己的提案來捍衛不是嗎好我們繼續該捍衛的就堅持我們都不要淪為犯罪者的保護傘被利用了好謝謝主席謝謝大家好"}]}},{"id":"167038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce048a76e51ca98fdfdb4bfe832d32782da89ddda9214312ca794c2a44ecd674d185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:45:11 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那有請部長請部長"},{"start":12.078,"end":34.927,"text":"陳委員好部長好那我因為今天還是跟這個彈藥有關係所以我想問一下國防部的意見就是說最近最主要是想要問經濟部但是我在想說問經濟部之前先問一下國防部最主要就是因為賴總統在之前在講這個國防預算七大目標的時候有特別提到要提升軍備的量能然後去帶動經濟"},{"start":38.054,"end":58.165,"text":"帶動經濟這件事情其實並不是國防部職業的責任它比較多是在經濟部因為今年在AI的部分經濟部有去做產促條例的修正因為彈藥跟無人機如果說也真的要納入到我們整個的國防產業來說的話我們經濟部的產促條例有沒有修正的空間"},{"start":62.407,"end":79.224,"text":"那我最主要這樣問的原因就是因為比如說在疫情的時候我們那時候也有這個所謂的口罩國家隊我認為口罩很重要但那時候廠商還是會有一些卻步就是因為他們就預估說可能兩三年之後呢這個可能就沒有什麼市場了所以你要他去設廠要去他生產他還是會有一點這個那個動機不足的問題"},{"start":83.949,"end":110.589,"text":"我們今天當然就是說不管是整個軍備產業的提升民間的加入確實很重要他們也是會有一點猶疑目前在這個產促條例跟產創條例裡面它針對AI的部分是做一些減稅什麼等等之類的措施所以我現在想問經濟部就是說有沒有這樣的一個機會但因為如果真的要這樣做我認為國防部的意見還是重要所以想問一下部長就是說"},{"start":111.77,"end":124.16,"text":"跟經濟部合作這件事情就是說我們去盤點我們現在要在地化我們的經濟民間的這個要來發展就是去符合這個總統講的國防帶動經濟有沒有可能經濟部那邊做一些修正"},{"start":126.629,"end":143.659,"text":"我想就國防部立場我們應該跟經濟部一起協調來就這個我想我們當然要強化我們的國防韌性在地的自主生產當然是很重要很重要的一個能量的建構"},{"start":145.38,"end":168.581,"text":"因為有時候就是會這樣子假設我們接著去問經濟部經濟部就說這個國防部可能會有意見什麼等等他還沒有這樣講所以我在想說趁今天這個機會先問一下國防部如果有機會的話我們下次在會同經濟部討論這一個產促條例修正的時候就可以去考量有沒有可能讓我們的民間加入的時候他在這一個產促條例裡面享有一定的優惠這樣的話更能夠去帶動相關的經濟發展"},{"start":171.403,"end":188.3,"text":"但是倒過來講我也會擔憂一件事情就是說因為民間越來越多的加入但它又是國防的等於是帶動產業的一環我在看國外的時候他們比如說美國他們在這個國防工業基地這個DIB他們也把它納入到CI裡面"},{"start":189.621,"end":217.355,"text":"但是問題是一旦納入到CI有可能會變成是另外一種廠商會卻步的原因因為你一旦納入到CI它要做的事情變多了我們剛剛講我們本來是想要用產速條例的方式增加多一點誘因讓產業能夠進來結果你把它納入到CI之後可能又會變成說它的成本提高但因為世界各國的趨勢就是有可能把它納入到CI所以我想問兩個方向第一個就是它有沒有可能納入到CI這是第一個"},{"start":218.175,"end":243.144,"text":"那第二個就是呢如果他沒有他如果被納入了CI的話我們有沒有辦法去減緩這樣的一個憂慮比如說他可能會享有一定的比如說今天在封控的時候他的海空的運輸可能優先他在停電的時候呢他可能跟醫療院所一樣他不會被先停電就是他有沒有這樣的一些配套措施有在研擬還是說我們目前的這一個目標是先不要把他放到CI"},{"start":245.395,"end":257.819,"text":"我覺得放到CI的這個部分如果你要問我從未來的角度來看可能是勢必是要去做的一件事情那只是說我們現在"},{"start":260.509,"end":286.577,"text":"因為彈藥的部分我想我們先不論了因為我想這個不適宜再公開但是就無人機的這個部分我想大家會開始逐步的會興起一些主要的一些它的系統的職業整合商還有各領組件的供應鏈這個整個那這個如果成為我們"},{"start":288.72,"end":314.811,"text":"就是國家佔領的一個重要來源的時候那這個當然會形成要如何確保它的韌性這個成為當然要成為一個討論的課題如果是這個樣子的話我個人也是認為說納入CI是有它的必要性但是就是就像剛剛講的納入到CI之後有可能會對他們來講對廠商來講它一定會有一些成本所以有什麼搭配的措施可能是在納入CI的過程當中可能需要去考量的"},{"start":315.451,"end":331.042,"text":"這個部分我覺得有些事情等到之後真的開始進入到那個階段的時候我們再來討論這邊我只是先做一個提醒我稍微再講一下因為納入關鍵技術設施以後或者無人機成為國航供應鏈裡面重要的一環一環"},{"start":332.183,"end":352.841,"text":"他們就會變成要被強調要治安因為他會涉及到相關的這些因為TIL程度高到一個程度他就會有一些治安的防護那我們也要查詢他的背景所以會有一些金流然後還有人員的安全查核其實這些不只是您講的這個"},{"start":354.622,"end":383.233,"text":"有關列入CI之後它相關的韌性的維持包括這些應該要進行的事項都是要考慮的這個全部都是因為它就會變成屬於在軍工產業的一環裡面的時候按照美國現在相對的經驗都是對於他們都有些特殊的要求對 這個對雙方來講其實行政成本都會有增加因為我畢竟就是說我們講什麼國防要來帶動這樣的一個經濟它不能只是一個口號而已"},{"start":383.533,"end":403.054,"text":"所以不管是剛剛前面講的這個修法或者說後面這邊搭配的措施我們如果一開始能夠完善化的話這個帶動經濟的效益一定會更好那接下來我想問就是因為剛剛部長也有提到就是無人機就是無人產業那因為最近我看到這一個後面我待會再問就是我把它放到哪裡去了我看一下"},{"start":405.064,"end":428.062,"text":"沒關係我留在這一頁好了就是因為最近我在看這個西班牙那一邊它有歐洲幾個他們自己有辦了一個會那也有歐洲幾個國家的國防部也有去與會那他們在講這一個無人機產業的時候他除了強調本來就是我們國防部有在講的偵打一體啊什麼等等之類的這邊的應用之外他們開始在討論無人機在後勤的運用"},{"start":429.323,"end":455.773,"text":"就是說因為我們之前的報告的內容大部分都還是在強調偵打這個部分我覺得這當然是好事因為這是我們的作戰需求但因為就像所有的作戰作戰都是要看後勤後勤這邊的不管是去中心化讓大家的人力的耗損減低他們已經開始在討論無人機在後勤這方面的使用這個我們台灣很多救災的經驗其實也有可能是有重合的地方所以不知道往來"},{"start":456.253,"end":461.139,"text":"現在在這一個方向我們針對無人產業這個部分針對後勤的部分國防部有沒有什麼規劃"},{"start":462.831,"end":487.08,"text":"現在主要是看無人機的一個技術啦是不是一定有具備一定的技術能力那這個當然有因為他跟真導的要求其實是完全不同的對他要自主導航長時間自控那其中還有一個最重要就是那個負載負載能力如果相關的這個負載的能力不高的話那光運載"},{"start":489.542,"end":510.027,"text":"一箱的彈藥可能就超過它的負荷所以我想這個部分都屬於我們後續就是說我們應該是要來進行考量也要來提升這樣子的一個負載的能力如果說技術能夠到位"},{"start":510.907,"end":524.217,"text":"那互展能力能夠到位的話我想我們不會排除這樣子的一個作為後勤的運用因為我覺得國際這樣的討論應該都是有它的意義存在那我們現在在很多的國家也都有這個軍事協調"},{"start":526.078,"end":548.112,"text":"那如果這個之前我也詢問過了如果不管是人力的增加我們專業的人才能夠在國際多參加這樣的一些會議然後把一些新的事情帶回來討論這對我們來講一定有一定有很大的注意因為它跟前面我們剛剛講的經濟的這個帶動也有很大的關係那我最後一個再問就是說跟我們的後備有關就是因為114年我們不是開始有這個後備戰事的這個實施做法嗎"},{"start":548.803,"end":567.884,"text":"那這個因為後備戰士的招募狀況當然並沒有到非常好那裡面呢就是我遇到幾個案例就是說因為它裡面有一個好像是12年還是10年我記得它有一個時間的限制就是說你今天志願役退了下來然後12年之內等等之類的可以去進入到這個後備戰士"},{"start":569.406,"end":585.238,"text":"那我就遇到滿多人跟我講說就是他已經超過那個年限了但是他的專長或者說他的實力他認為自己是可以來做這件事情所以在這個年限上面的這個調整或者說資格限制這邊呢現在有沒有過嚴的問題還是說其實跟這個無關我們的招募狀況其實是別的問題"},{"start":590.117,"end":611.587,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得是這樣子就是說後備戰士是禮拜六禮拜天來那麼如果是陸軍一般部隊的話如果不能夠融入編制從事相關的任務的話禮拜六禮拜天來"},{"start":612.912,"end":630.101,"text":"坦白講只會增加一個負擔但沒有辦法所以如果看看我們可以思考看看是不是在如果以援兵援單位的一個概念來看的話在演習的時候是不是可以把它類似一個"},{"start":631.212,"end":653.482,"text":"鞭死動員的一個概念然後把它召回我想這可能會符合任務的需求第二個就是說有一些高專的比如說他是修復的或者是像飛行的我們現在已經都在檢討那修復的能量如果他就屬於高專人才"},{"start":655.023,"end":675.611,"text":"他如果要維持他的一個修復的一個能力那願意加入那我覺得這也可以那還有包括一些像水中爆破啦兩棲徵收啦這些我想融入到部隊的新的一個觀念新的武器然後新的"},{"start":677.172,"end":694.649,"text":"這個操作的模式等等我覺得這個是可以來來來討論那飛行員的部分我們也在檢討當中所以我想這個都都會納入我們後續進行的方案好那這個之後呢我們再來看檢討看看他要怎麼去進行因為我們遇到的就他也是支援與退"},{"start":695.049,"end":716.787,"text":"所以它是融入是沒問題但它可能連線不符合但它實力又符合所以針對這樣的狀況我們能不能夠讓真正願意的人資格也符合的專長也符合忠誠度也沒問題的他能夠進入到這個系統這個對我們未來應該是很有幫助對 我們已經在我們討論過一兩次了所以我們或許會再討論好 那我之後再來追這一題謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"167033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0b5dc21555a84b6abe6ea9f55fbd6b87589ddda9214312ca73c866e876d24eab55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:12:44 - 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太儀早安剛才本席針對今天一些的提案做了一些說明那我們在這個部分再更精進的來做一下討論跟請教那我們今天這個審查刑事訴訟法羈押相關制度的一個修訂"},{"start":39.597,"end":63.592,"text":"那麼整個社會其實都意識到這個羈押作為一個很嚴厲最嚴厲的一個強制處分之一然後在人權的保障跟司法效率的面向那我們今天來討論這樣一個制度是不是就制度面來講是不是周延那本席來引用那個司法院去年7月15號的調查報告那整個報告呢聚焦在台鹽公司陳啟鈺案的這個引發了爭議"},{"start":64.733,"end":78.954,"text":"那當時台南的地方法院認為不羈押的事由然後吳保請回後呢結果被告逃逸了結果引發社會對於法院是否嚴當審理然後檢方是不是沒有善用科技等等這樣的疑慮"},{"start":80.436,"end":93.352,"text":"那麼整個調查顯示各地方法院跟檢察署對於什麼叫做重大什麼叫做矚目案的認定標準不一那也交由各地方來認定有沒有需要再監督的一個機制"},{"start":95.895,"end":115.756,"text":"這個差異可能會影響到強制處分的即時性跟明確性所以本席在這邊就請教你們三個問題第一個是司法院跟法務部你們可不可以說明一下你們目前對於所謂重大矚目的一個標準有沒有相對比較起義的一個看法"},{"start":116.477,"end":135.254,"text":"那這個部分是不是在社會疑慮下有一些更精進的空間那本席認為如果能夠有一些比較一致性的指引或制度性的規範那麼避免羈押審查的這個節奏因為認定的差異產生了程序的落差因此也引起了社會的疑慮"},{"start":136.335,"end":164.486,"text":"那麼第二個部分是那關於強制處分跟專庭的一個推動專庭制度的推動那麼羈押搜索限制出境出海的強制處分現在交由這個專屬的強制處分專庭來審理那雖然有助於形成穩定的一個審查的標準那避免審審審的法官來產生這個預斷但實務上有一些法界的這個專家指出那整個運作上還是有一些制度性的風險也就是說"},{"start":165.146,"end":170.228,"text":"部分的地方法院會因為地域因素或個案的屬性然後讓檢察官或警察可能會傾向選擇某些特定的法院來申請強制羈押處分那麼以台鹽的這個案子為例"},{"start":180.931,"end":209.94,"text":"那麼台南地方法院五十一位法官當中的四位在這個整個強制處分的專庭那是不是你們會不會認為這樣子一個比例比較偏低那難免有些案件會集中在某一些法官的身上那影響到整個審查的品質那最主要外界的觀感可能也有很多的疑慮所以你們是不是可以說明一下那個前述的這個問題那目前有什麼樣一個做法本席還有第三點那還是你們要先就前面兩點先做一個回應跟說明"},{"start":210.816,"end":234.951,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教那有關於就是說這個重大矚目那個案件我們是有定標準的就是在那個司法院所定的這個法院辦理偵查中申請羈押重大矚目刑事被告案件注意要點中的第一點他就已經有對什麼叫做重大刑事案件還有什麼是那個矚目案件有做一個規定"},{"start":236.091,"end":251.416,"text":"那所以你們在這樣一個規定下就還產生了某一些讓整個社會很驚訝的這樣子一個狀態那這個部分你們是在你們的標準上跟食物的運作上是不是有一些需要再檢討的空間因為就是說那個"},{"start":252.276,"end":267.838,"text":"案件犯罪那个类型呢还有事实的那个状态事实上千变万化所以说他不可能就每个具体的那个情况做规定他势必有一定就是规定的时候要见某部分那个抽象性那这时候就要看"},{"start":268.519,"end":287.335,"text":"法官他怎麼去認定他怎麼去那個認定我想他會存在這個客觀上的情形那有關於那個專庭我們現在大部就是除了就是說那種比較小的像那個一些法院之外像那個福建那個人就很少就是這一些之外的話都有設那個專庭"},{"start":288.456,"end":301.731,"text":"那專庭事實上它是有好處的就是幾年下來呢它運作的也非常成熟因為就是說第一個是那個專業化因為現在刑事案件的那種種類越來越多那個有關於那個"},{"start":304.034,"end":329.676,"text":"強制處分這個部分呢他委由那個專庭來做他可以達成就是大家對於這些那個案件就是的熟悉度還有他們的那個標準也會比較趨於比較那個統一啊所以本席剛才講到的那這樣子您說當然專業上有一些累積那累積之後會不會也有一些比較特定獨斷的一個取向呢這是本席這邊所提出來的就是說人數上然後您說專業上"},{"start":331.417,"end":338.976,"text":"那可能會不會久了就會有這樣一個比較獨斷的取向所以會變成警察或者是警察官特定的一個選擇呢"},{"start":341.431,"end":361.012,"text":"我想這個獨斷這個應該是一個評價上的那個問題啦就是一般其實我覺得他們對於整個那個強處的那個有專庭的設置大部分其實都還蠻那個肯定的對那本席這邊提出來其實這個面向應該也是值得思考你們是不是也可以就這個部分就是當"},{"start":361.593,"end":383.647,"text":"我們累積了很多一致性的一個想法的時候那或許是不是在某一些這個選擇上就會朝向某一個取向那會導致本席這邊所講的有特定的一個選擇你們是不是可以就這個部分也去做一個討論我想也是有人也是有相關的專家有這樣一個反應好不好謝謝委員指教"},{"start":386.349,"end":405.652,"text":"第三個部分在現行的制度下科技監控是一個羈押的替代處分類似像這樣羈押理由為前提需要有存在的羈押理由為前提但是法院認定不具羈押事由的時候檢方也沒有辦法申請科技監控法務部跟司法部是不是可以說明"},{"start":406.312,"end":416.198,"text":"未來是不是在有可能不侵害人權的前提下透過制度的設計來降低院檢認定落差所可能產生的逃逸的風險"},{"start":418.734,"end":439.5,"text":"法務部也要做一個回應我先一個大的回應其實今年從去年以來那個有關於科控的使用那個比例已經非常非常高了那個整個層數有達成非常高的比例這是我先一個補充說明好 謝謝"},{"start":441.42,"end":455.089,"text":"我想透過我們的器材的精進還有我們的研習我們提高我們檢察官跟法官使用的意願所以這個科控我們是提高了那相關的一些作業或者是其他替代的我們還會跟司法院來研議"},{"start":456.024,"end":470.111,"text":"OK 好 所以本席這邊所談的最主要就是一個這個可預期的一個設計不會讓每一個個案讓大家都覺得為什麼這個個案是這樣那個個案是那樣然後再加上一些政治性的連結那就讓社會經常感覺好像這個標準不一"},{"start":474.873,"end":494.041,"text":"那可能個人好惡又會影響整個案件的一個走向所以這個部分就是說這個一次性的標準是不是能夠在不失數也不失守的情況下然後來做一些更精進的研議好不好好那第二個部分本席要請教法務部跟衛福部副秘書長謝謝"},{"start":498.002,"end":511.576,"text":"這個部分本席要針對監所的第一線針對是不是我們整個國家有沒有達到一個基本的人權保障的要求來救教那麼依據這個積壓法跟監獄刑刑法的規定"},{"start":512.797,"end":539.463,"text":"為了要照顧安置受刑人吸入之子女監獄應該規劃適當的活動空間並提供必要的設施子女的戶籍所在地之地方社會福利主管機關也應該要提供必要的協助整個調查法務部跟衛福部你們針對監獄內生活模式跟環境並不是那麼的沒有做相關的系統性的評估"},{"start":540.043,"end":566.692,"text":"那對幼兒的這個身心發展的影響也沒有辦法很妥善的一個合作適切的一輸一些資源那麼導致這個有一點違反兒童權利公約的一個情況那整個基本上來講就是場所的管理還有介護的管理甚至對孩子哭泣的這個處遇方式不但沒有建立一些支持跟同理的育兒環境反而加重了親子的一個心理的壓力而很嚴重的是"},{"start":567.492,"end":589.719,"text":"尤其是非本國籍西陸入監的受刑人那語言的隔閡無法充分理解監所規定的時候這樣子的情形又更越發嚴重那本席這邊提一個案例就是桃園女子監獄那113年的時候呢這個親子園地受刑子女的人數有的時候多達24人然後連續6個月每個月都超過了這個核定的人數"},{"start":595.261,"end":607.505,"text":"核定人數是21人大概最多的時候都是24人如果再連同場設收容的一般修行人每名兒童可以使用的空間只有3.1平方公尺遠低於法務部櫃部所訂定的每一個兒童應該有8平方公尺的標準"},{"start":614.827,"end":634.503,"text":"所以在監所超收的情況下就地方社會福利機關也沒有辦法掌握實際收容的一個狀況那麼各地的辦理水母入監視切性評估時你們是如何來評估對符合子女最佳的利益那是不是有把監所的環境跟超收的情形一併納入考量父母如果已經有這樣的狀況已經蠻辛苦的了"},{"start":640.327,"end":654.124,"text":"那孩子連同著一病在這樣一個情況下在他人生有這麼樣一些印記其實我想都不是太健康所以本席這邊要請教兩個部會目前監所對子女的這個照顧"},{"start":655.665,"end":665.111,"text":"沒有符合這個CRC等人權標準的情形那你們如何全面的評估跟改進那麼桃園女監這個個案已經明顯的低於空間標準的一個場這個場設那你中長城的擴建計畫當中怎麼樣來優先考量相關的育兒設施那在擴建完成前怎麼樣來避免讓幼兒在這種不適切的環境中暴露那這個本席要請教兩個部會那就個案還有全面"},{"start":684.002,"end":708.024,"text":"你們目前怎麼個處理柯委員報告因為今天那個矯正署並沒有派人來列席那市長這邊可不可以就一個對 我們對於這個問題我們是也看到也面臨到不過我們監所這邊也已經非常非常的努力第一個 在空間的使用上我們會盡量排除一些困難"},{"start":708.804,"end":723.495,"text":"加大他的活動的空間這個都已經在做了那再來就是跟衛福部這邊也密切的合作如果有一些醫療或者衛生方面的需求的話我們也會跟他有充分的聯繫"},{"start":724.776,"end":745.284,"text":"我們監所針對這個問題真的非常的認真在執行那就因為它是超收超過了原來監所的設計的原來的想法所以在現有的空間因為我們現在監所還沒驗收完成在空間有限的情況之下我們會盡量讓它有多的空間來使用"},{"start":746.224,"end":754.92,"text":"對 你講的這個是個案的空間我想這一個全面性的問題應該整個法務部可以來做一個整體的評估跟處理我們針對這個問題會審慎的來研究"},{"start":757.97,"end":778.409,"text":"好 那個案的部分就是在比較即時性的部分我想是不是可以趕快找出一些即時性的因應跟處理方式是 是 會 我們會研究好 謝謝那最後是關心本席要關心那個整個少府的這個問題我想本席在這個整個會期已經提很多了"},{"start":779.43,"end":807.836,"text":"我們還是提醒一下 少年事件處理法的第42條第5項跟第6項我們期待法院來召集諮詢會議串聯教育 設政警政跟社安的資源及早介入整合但是司法院目前好像還沒有一個執行的模式人力的配置跟教育訓練的準備周全你們在去年的報告裡面去年11月18號的報告裡面也做這樣的陳述但是整個各地法院的負荷非常"},{"start":808.556,"end":815.081,"text":"沉重那實務上其實極少召開這樣子的會議然後在會議裡面還有實務型的一些做法我想真的在這個現場還確實是很困難那麼現在很重要就是說每個單位的這個方案的內容還有分工的界限還有開案的標準有點不太熟悉那這個當然有本席一直在講的基本的一些問題"},{"start":833.975,"end":848.969,"text":"但是我們在實務操作其實有效的跟法院端形成跨網域的合作其實還是真正有一些困難我想最近大家要抗議的就是轟動的戈井案這裡面也是有一些呈現本席一直談一直談所以在最終本席想請教的是"},{"start":854.033,"end":864.419,"text":"那麼重大案件來揭示問題之後呢那目前我們推動跟法院端跟這個地方政府特別是教育局處設置單位之間明確的聯繫窗口跟標準化協作的流程你們的具體作為怎麼樣去避免資訊落差成為少年案件的一個破口那這個部分是不是可以給本席做一個回應那本席在整個會期裡面一直談到那中央的這個平台"},{"start":881.59,"end":888.952,"text":"雖然副秘書長您這邊也有提到說應該行政院這邊來建立但是是不是你們跟行政院這邊的一個推動像剛才有其他的委員有講到我們長期書記官30年費用通通都沒有調高我想你也希望人事單位的一個支持有的時候就你必須要先提出來或者是可能人事單位會發現不過通常都是第一線的我們才會發現這樣一個問題"},{"start":912.397,"end":925.302,"text":"發現的時候有的時候說這麼久其實常常要做滾動式的檢討我們有可能在很大的業務量裡面就忽略掉某一項所以本席這邊講的是這樣一個少年事件少婦會的一個中央的平台我想在今年我們其實也討論了很多不知道你們現在目前針對這個部分跟行政院的一個"},{"start":934.445,"end":946.675,"text":"不知道你們有沒有提出那或者是有沒有跟行政院的相關單位來研擬這樣一個可能性因為他影響的就是我們食物在地方上的操作我們想的當然是以輔導先行可是呢這個輔導在一個軟性的這個執行程序當中呢就會變成有點鬆散"},{"start":955.462,"end":975.583,"text":"那是不是可以透過中央這樣一個平台然後給各地方一些比較強力的支持那最重要就是說那你們跟行政院這邊是不是有比較積極的已經有做一些積極的溝通了嗎還是只等著本席這邊再幫你們跟行政院要做一些嫁接我想這個部分再請教一下副秘書長"},{"start":977.01,"end":998.945,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分先前也有向委員報告過因為這個部分還沒有涉及少年犯罪所以說他這時候還沒有司法權介入的情形他完全是一個行政層次所以說這個部分有關於少婦會他怎麼運作跟他的權責我們司法院真的無從介入"},{"start":999.665,"end":1026.657,"text":"那當然也是後來這個整個法律調整了之後那你們就沒有這樣一個權限但是不是就在實務的運作上我們就解決問題的層面上你們有機會來跟行政院來做一個溝通嗎本席當然也是在努力跟行政院這邊來做這樣一個推動但是你也知道這實際上的一個運作因為這個部分司法院完全沒有職責所以我們也無從介入說少府會他應該怎麼樣那個運作"},{"start":1030.474,"end":1050.466,"text":"那本席是認為就是說雖然是職權的這個問題但是我們針對事情的解決也是可以想辦法來積極處理啦這是一個建議啦那當然可能在政府部門大家針對這整個各自的職司有太多的限制那要不然但是你們是不是也可以請這個政委這邊"},{"start":1052.087,"end":1070.54,"text":"或是一些私下的溝通我想你們過去都曾經做過這樣的業務那透過私下的溝通能夠讓這些事情在轉換的過渡期間呢那目前在實地運作上的不足可以透過一些溝通來把它連結起來這是本席的一些本席的用意啦"},{"start":1072.101,"end":1091.173,"text":"提出這樣的建議希望如果有機會我們就針對目前少府的這個問題能夠用各種管道來處理吧好不好最後就提醒一下剛才幾位委員都談到公教的這個有關於這個"},{"start":1093.495,"end":1110.074,"text":"軟體的這個寫作這個問題那我這邊提一個建議我還是要釐清就是說不好意思就考試院這邊假設在你們先說六個月的這樣一個期程那我們知道其實在資訊資訊的這個專業度上有的時候就是如同翁委員今天在質詢的"},{"start":1111.115,"end":1123.289,"text":"在專業上或許有些時候就是一個參數的問題但是王委員提的是他提的是另外一個可能性就是說未來是不是也可以給個人有機會去做一個檢視那本席是認為以現在台灣這樣一個AI的"},{"start":1126.593,"end":1131.435,"text":"國度我們在資訊的這個軟體程式上的寫作應該不至於要那麼長的時間所以是不是可以請這個考試院相對比較積極一點雖然規定的時間是這樣但是我們為了所有相關人的一個權益我們或許可以更積極的然後在速度上來推動的比較快一點"},{"start":1146.101,"end":1168.009,"text":"那我覺得汪委員的建議也很不錯啦未來如果能夠讓個人也可以計算的話但我想這又是另外一個這個城市性的問題所以本席這邊提一個建議就針對目前會影響到相關的權益人的這個部分是不是速度可以加快一點那至於那個汪委員那個很好的一個建議那我覺得也可以減少未來一些問題那我相信城市應該是這個關係到大家應該不至於說"},{"start":1170.931,"end":1185.104,"text":"會出錯啦 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有請顧部長部長好部長我們今天特別會去釘釘這個議題希望國防部可以更清楚的說明很重要的一個因素是我們在近期看到從子彈到火藥"},{"start":25.031,"end":40.738,"text":"它發生的問題其實它兩個事件我們看到它有一個共同的起點它都不是我們自己不能生產我們本身都可以做而且過去不管品質、規格還有價錢其實都算是不錯的"},{"start":42.038,"end":53.047,"text":"可是我們現在卻一再的決定一定要外購我們想要知道主要的原因是什麼因為從早就是一開始到現在我們聽到很多的回答其實是非常矛盾的就剛剛有提到說我們這個產線在新廠到底什麼時候開始我們到底有多少產量這個部分我想在去年就已經對外本來去年8月就應該要"},{"start":71.861,"end":99.86,"text":"完成可是後來又到12月說12月其實就可以開始量產那現在又好像要延到今年的3月所以到底什麼時候新廠可以開始跟委員報告我們的委協書就是如同委員所說明的我們的跟中科院的委協書是到114年的12月31號那目前我們的機具也跟委員之前說明的都已經到新的一個營區不管是"},{"start":100.58,"end":104.964,"text":"我們不是要知道這個詳細的那個因為他已經延宕了剛剛你們拿疫情來當理由說因為高雄市政府是因為疫情的關係所以我們的土建延後如果要用這個理由那他也已經延過了因為本來應該是前年要完成的我們已經延了一年那現在在去年又好像沒有辦法完成現在又要延到今年三月三月確定可以嗎確定可以"},{"start":128.562,"end":136.211,"text":"確定可以所有的四線都可以生產5.56我還是上禮拜跟委員報告5.56是3月其他三條線是9月"},{"start":138.653,"end":144.817,"text":"9月所以你又要再往後延一年沒有沒有沒有沒有今年今年3月就是5.56沒有你這個本來應該前年要完成去後來你們對外宣稱說去年12月就可以開始量產那現在又要延到3月跟9月等於你又要延了將近一年的時間是這樣嗎"},{"start":160.066,"end":168.31,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟中坤的委協書是到去年12月31號了委協書我都有看了確實我們假如是以委協書來量產我們現在要知道的是我們一言再言的原因是什麼因為這樣沒有影響戰力嗎當你急著編很大筆的預算要外購的時候我們要先很清楚的知道我們自己內部到底發生什麼問題因為為什麼我說你們的說法是很矛盾的剛剛有提到我們過去的舊廠舊縣"},{"start":190.02,"end":200.723,"text":"只有兩條生產線它不但可以符合我們自己的訓量符合我們自己國內的需求而且還可以賣給其他國家還可以賣給民間賣給美國在作戰的時候使用可是現在我們增加了四條線新廠有四條新的生產線還再加上兩條舊的生產線你們號稱可以生產一億發的子彈"},{"start":217.048,"end":245.565,"text":"可是現在還需要外購原因是什麼委員報告齁 就我跟軍備局的了解是這樣就是說 現況上來講 即使布布林有沒有搬遷他的5.56公里的這個彈藥跟7.6公里的彈藥是共線嘛那所以他生產的時候如果是生產5.56 他就不能夠生產7.6你們以前不知道嗎對 但是我講的是現況 不是以前不知道那我們現在講的是說 我們現在新的線拆線"},{"start":246.425,"end":265.291,"text":"接下來中科院的部分那中科院是不是要說明一下他4條新的線4條新的線那他都可以同時間產製那另外有在跟委員報告就是那個底火的部分底火的部分現在也要透過特別預算來增加那一個底火的產線因為底火才能夠支撐整個彈藥的一個生產每顆彈藥就要一顆底火"},{"start":269.873,"end":288.249,"text":"那所以底火的部分透過特別預算會增加到原來現況是兩千四百萬那現在底火的部分是四千八九千九千多那如果能夠才暫時的三班次的話那就會再增加大概大概現況跟"},{"start":289.89,"end":291.512,"text":"跟現在要加強的狀況大概是我們用很簡單的方法來算我們剛剛有提到舊線就是兩條新線再增加四條我們總共有六條生產線你說我們現在一億發的這個子彈敵火會不足"},{"start":306.03,"end":309.611,"text":"你明明知道你要生產的是一億發的子彈你的底火沒有辦法生產你當初是怎麼設計這四條生產線你現在如果我們沒有特別預算那你的底火怎麼辦你當初這個是怎麼設計出來的這是我說的第一個矛盾的地方第二個為什麼是一定要用特別預算你在過去新廠的"},{"start":328.195,"end":332.377,"text":"在建制的時候我們所有的產線在建制的時候你們用的都是生殖基金為什麼你現在如果有真的需要照理說是不應該現在還要增加這個部分這個根本就是強詞多理你在設計的時候生產一億發的時候你沒有辦法設計生產低火那你要怎麼生產一億發的子彈如果他3月開始他9月開始你沒有這個低火的生產線一億發這個怎麼生產出來"},{"start":357.407,"end":364.553,"text":"這是第一個矛盾的地方第二個就是你不是用特別預算今天我們聽到現在好像大家都在幫特別預算在爭取而已而不是解決我們現在目前我們產生的疑問剛剛不管小口徑也好或者大口徑的彈藥也好你們都說一定要有這個特別預算才可以生產我們過去中科院做那麼多的飛彈你們號稱"},{"start":383.209,"end":392.331,"text":"可以在我們每年的機密預算裡面我們每年不管熊系列不管天公系列不管其他的彈藥我們都沒有發生過這樣的問題今天突然需要特別預算的時候大家都需要從那裡出來了所以你過去是怎麼做的我們現在要討論的就是剛剛我們提到的"},{"start":402.654,"end":404.436,"text":"所有的彈藥你今天兩條舊線30年前的生產線你都可以自我滿足然後還可以出售甚至可以提供他國的戰爭使用"},{"start":418.071,"end":423.333,"text":"那個一直用到2020年都是6塊錢那個你們說的那個錢都是話術啦我們賣給他6塊美國就是提供低火跟跟那個發射藥沒有錯可是其他的全部都是我們的生殖中我們自己的205廠生產的所以我們不只是代工你明明就可以做一整顆完整的可以賣給人家我現在要提到的是這個部分第二個就是我們現在"},{"start":446.843,"end":454.104,"text":"剛剛你們也提到那個價格的部分114年我們國防部綠定的普通彈跟鋼心彈的價格是多少"},{"start":457.965,"end":475.002,"text":"114年我直接講好了114年普通蛋你們訂的是9塊錢就是國防部如果要跟軍備局買普通蛋是9塊錢剛興蛋是14塊你們訂的是14塊包括你們在今年的預算就是今年的預算沒有14塊"},{"start":480.732,"end":484.215,"text":"報委員我們沒有訂14塊這個你們綠定的價格14塊不然你的你知道你115年的那個公務預算今年我們算還沒有審可是你的公務預算裡面編列8.9億要向生殖中心購置這個6200萬發"},{"start":499.509,"end":501.39,"text":"我們把它換算下來就是14塊出頭就是14塊所以你包括今年編的要買的其實也是14塊可是你在招標上公告上面他一顆的價格高達18.8塊雖然絕標價是15塊多所以我剛剛聽你們說綠定的價格變成16塊我覺得是"},{"start":521.844,"end":532.28,"text":"得標以後才滾動式的修正因為你們自己看你們的公務預算不要搖頭也不要在這裡說你們沒有清楚的再去查你們114年綠定的這個一定有一定有正式的文書資料"},{"start":536.987,"end":552.382,"text":"容我簡單跟您報告一下一百五十五年公務預算所編列的十四塊一他是十四塊一的時候他那個是最先入軍為了這個這個鋼心彈的需求做的一個訪商尋商的一個價格那實際上"},{"start":554.684,"end":558.067,"text":"這個軍備局他對外招標的時候是在去年年底那這個是一個物價上面的差異性所以最終他是以他15.13以來的標美國的網站同規格的子彈比國防部採購的價格低了近三成自己先去查清楚再來回答這些相關的問題我們目前所有看到的而且我想請教部長我們看一下我們這一次"},{"start":581.226,"end":588.99,"text":"要採購的都是我們這一次裡面很重要一個有5.56步槍彈的這個型號我想請教部長這四個型號你大概知道這是什麼彈嗎上面有這個應該依序是這個左邊是普通彈然後這個是鋼心彈和那個M855A1的這個就是一個加強版的"},{"start":606.738,"end":629.561,"text":"M85A1是哪一個M85A1是最右邊那第三個勒五星彈好 我們這次要買的是什麼彈我們這次要買第二個 綠色彈頭的M85 鋼芯彈嘛我們自己能不能做 新產線可以嘛所以我們自己能做 為什麼你們還沒做的時候你要外購"},{"start":631.451,"end":634.893,"text":"而且幾乎全部外購為什麼這剛剛已經說明了剛剛已經跟委員報告為什麼因為最主要就是因為這個一年期一物一的徵集還有叫一物一的徵集我們所有的訓場我們所有的靶場我們所有的時間我們所有的教官我們能夠安排的可以打靶的時間有多少那個都可以算得出來是的"},{"start":651.82,"end":655.481,"text":"你突然說今年要增加這麼多的一個彈量我剛剛一直提到我們現在有兩個舊線再加上四條新的線它可以生產普通彈也可以生產鋼芯彈就是我們這一次外購的M855鋼芯彈我們買的確定不是M855A1嘛對不對 M855"},{"start":672.665,"end":675.746,"text":"M855你們再仔細去查一下人家的價格因為現在美國全部都要把它賣掉美國現在用的M855A1鋼心彈因為它M855已經不用了第一不環保第二其實它的殺傷力並沒有想像這麼好"},{"start":689.793,"end":691.174,"text":"他對人員的那個可能供給也沒有像我們說的這麼好所以我現在要請教的是為什麼我們一定要外購我們為什麼生產會不足我剛剛已經講過相關的理由你一年可以生產一億發喔"},{"start":707.364,"end":709.866,"text":"那你現在有很多還是需要外購在今天的專報書面資料和跟委員的說明已經報告過從111年到114年我們整個實戰化的訓練和整個教招和義務役還有我們我剛剛也說過了我剛剛也說過了"},{"start":724.737,"end":727.899,"text":"我們現在我們的庫存有滿山滿谷的855鋼心彈那時候美國軍援的子彈就是855鋼心彈855鋼心彈我們在訓練的時候為什麼不會用很重要的就是它對於我們的槍管會磨損它很多很多的靶場現在根本禁止使用這是第一點我必須向您報告我們現行部隊"},{"start":751.194,"end":753.836,"text":"經常性射擊的我們在鋼心彈的射擊的彈數裡面佔了83%一直以來我們在現行的訓練裡面沒有 現行訓練裡面從過去到現在一直是使用普通彈跟鋼心彈而且鋼心彈的比例佔了87%鋼心彈是什麼鋼心彈是用在什麼地方練習"},{"start":773.43,"end":791.862,"text":"就是一般的靶場我們現行的靶場就是在使用並沒有為了這一次才特別去買這個為什麼過去都不用你從以前就87%都是把它講清楚一直都有在使用參謀長一直都有在使用它是在哪些時候有使用我們過去沒有自己做對不對從民國93以後我們過去也沒有買我們就沒有在採購都是從庫儲推好那它從哪裡來你庫儲是戰備庫儲說採購的來推好戰備庫儲是哪裡來的"},{"start":803.804,"end":804.628,"text":"在93年以前採購的"},{"start":805.726,"end":808.827,"text":"93年以前採購的數量可以用到我們一百一十幾年所以我們的庫儲佔備其實非常多這個詳細的數量我們現在還有我們現在要釐清的就是這個已經很多包括美國其實他都不用了可是這個我必須容我跟您報告M85A1也是我們積極爭取的一個彈藥但是目前"},{"start":833.812,"end":850.822,"text":"是沒有管制出口是管制出口所以我們目前最在這個鋼芯彈裡面我們最高的就是能用到M85鋼芯彈用在什麼地方的練習設計用在什麼地方參謀長不要只說你都有把比較具體的隨便舉例說出來現行的部隊舉例幾個任何駐地基地和三軍聯訓我們所停領的彈藥現行就是普通彈 鋼芯彈這兩種"},{"start":862.32,"end":868.743,"text":"按照現在的資料統計近三年5.56公里的步槍彈每年平均訊號5367萬餘發普通彈是860萬餘發剛性彈就4506萬發就是剛剛參謀長講的佔到83%"},{"start":880.968,"end":889.012,"text":"過去的來源是什麼因為部長如果我們每年你現在從93年開始一直到現在每年有4000多萬發你用的都是鋼心彈可是我們卻從來沒有採購過我們也從來沒有做過原來111年的時候至少現在資料顯示111年的時候還只有2340萬發嘛萬餘發嘛所以他這個訓量就一直增加嘛"},{"start":912.627,"end":918.163,"text":"2340萬餘發我現在要說的部長我想我們可以再把資料找來你要不要說明一下"},{"start":920.615,"end":937.693,"text":"委員好 我是彈藥處處長跟委員做個說明我們之前在100年左右我們國軍的這個子彈至少有大概五六億左右那後續接著因為裁軍的因為一些關係我們這子彈是超量的時間的關係我只要你們具體的我簡單的講第一"},{"start":941.417,"end":950.182,"text":"我們鋼芯彈過去舊線從來沒有自己生產過對不對我們從90年之後沒有再買但是我們以前大概有三四億發三四億發用了十幾年你的意思好這樣"},{"start":956.712,"end":974.568,"text":"90年以前有買過然後美國也有軍援我們現在在訓練的時候大家都是在什麼地方使用我很可能有一些誤解我們這些鋼心彈有些已經都超過差不多30年那你再不把它做社訓推號的話它接下來就要報廢所以我們在"},{"start":975.769,"end":979.452,"text":"10年前大概就是以一成左右來做這個規號沒關係 我們用邏輯來講嘛你今天說那個有的都已經超過30年所以那個不能用可是你這幾年全部都沒有突然在今年才開始有而且你的價格非常高而且同時跟我們的火藥同時一起對外採購我們要強調的是"},{"start":1000.928,"end":1004.81,"text":"第一這個是我們的新產線是可以自己生產的你今天如果你的訊量要增加我們自己的產線也可以生產這個鋼芯彈這是第一個它不是只能生產普通彈喔它只是彈頭轉換而已所以我們的新產線是可以生產鋼芯彈如果我們真的有這樣的需求的時候"},{"start":1022.72,"end":1028.501,"text":"第二個 我們所有的武器裝備我們其實是更老舊的為什麼大家不用鋼芯彈剛剛我們提到一個很重要的因素它會對我們的槍管造成火損這個855並不會對槍管造成過度的磨耗因為它本身的糖壓跟您所說的那個A1是不一樣你說 你現在的回答跟大家的認知不一樣因為我們現時使用的就是855鋼芯彈沒關係 你現在"},{"start":1049.145,"end":1053.388,"text":"那你855鋼型彈已經用很多嘛我現在要的 確切的這樣的資料參謀長請你 你是陸軍參謀長855跟855A1那855A1比那個優秀的地方在哪裡第一個他本身你為什麼訓練不是 我再請教一個問題好了訓練的時候你為什麼不用普通彈"},{"start":1073.803,"end":1076.644,"text":"因為一個6塊4塊多算6塊好了一個6塊然後一個你們訂了18塊8沒有說訓練不能用沒有說訓練不能用普通彈我們整個一切的採購我們一切的戰備存量參謀長告訴我們為什麼你在訓練不是用普通彈我們訓練的很多彈藥必須要從戰備來推耗以節約這個攻堂和避免再做廢彈的處理"},{"start":1099.773,"end":1110.719,"text":"他的價格是他的三倍請告訴我們推號我們可以理解可是你的普通蛋一定比鋼心蛋多得多因為你從過去到現在你生產的都是普通蛋庫存的普通蛋量是比鋼心蛋還少所以我們剛剛也報告了在普通蛋我們推號完畢之後我們為了平站一致和為了能夠有較佳的貫穿力我們會採購鋼心蛋"},{"start":1125.543,"end":1130.929,"text":"所以你的鋼芯彈是要來做戰備儲存的戰備儲存可是你在採購的時候你是說要訓練喔沒有報告在預算書表裡面是講戰備儲存及教育訓練用彈補充"},{"start":1141.721,"end":1146.044,"text":"你的採購書採購公告採購上面說的是訓練的你們自己再去看清楚所以其實我們就是還是回過頭來我們要知道的為什麼我們的產線沒有辦法自己生產因為如果你要做到生產鋼心蛋也沒有問題可是你卻要外購應該要告訴大家我們的生產線有沒有問題報委員應該就我的需求來說我先不談生產"},{"start":1170.161,"end":1191.91,"text":"今天如果在國會的殿堂上面參謀長沒關係你已經解釋了今天如果在國會的殿堂上面這個都是有記錄的如果有人公然說謊未來是不是大家要負起這樣的責任都可以嘛所以我們希望你再回去查查一下"},{"start":1192.89,"end":1196.772,"text":"M855鋼心彈對我們的武器裝備會不會造成損耗他的壽命是不是會減短這是很普通的常識因為M855A1是美方現在全面要的我們要第一個提醒是我們不要"},{"start":1212.422,"end":1221.066,"text":"去幫人家清庫存第二個我們自己能做的因為你每次都說要國防自主當你花了五十幾億又增加二十幾億去增加這些生產線到現在還沒有辦法做出我們需求的彈藥這個問題到底出在哪裡這個可能陸續後面還要再追蹤我們現在要講的是你講得很清楚嘛等他生產的線擴線以後我們就有嘛"},{"start":1235.213,"end":1238.215,"text":"部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年"},{"start":1251.583,"end":1255.885,"text":"我們過去的戰備存量我們因為我們要建廠所以其實我們沒有賣出去我們把它用在戰備就是我們的戰備用量還有我們的訓量那時候所以我們沒有在外就是沒有把它賣出去所以那就是在估計我們的戰備存量"},{"start":1271.773,"end":1286.351,"text":"部長如果像你剛剛說的那個理由都不是現在應該有的理由我們現在講的是我們的新產線照理都應該要能夠馬上生產我們自己自主不然我們就不用增加這個啊今天你如果因為多了一些義務役我們現在的國軍是減少的"},{"start":1289.975,"end":1294.278,"text":"然後你說我們那個戰備存量跟我們的那個訓練的彈藥是不足的這是第一點矛盾第二個我們自己能做一直強調明明我們自己能做用到了我們的戰備存量所以我們要先去補戰備存量所以現在有一個部長那是他們跟你說的嘛我就說他的戰備存量他每年都在計算嘛他以前就已經都補足了所以他沒有賣出去嘛他以前每年都有賣給其他國家他甚至賣出5億發"},{"start":1320.378,"end":1343.653,"text":"報告委員我必須再報告一點因為我們現在戰備對於庫儲基準的調整是提升的所以並不能用以前那這個提升的比例我不方便在這裡公開講下去可以跟委員報告他是提升相當大的因為我們不能仰賴作戰的時候才去考量到這個緊急的生產或是外援那那個整個是不太可能所以我們是提升了戰備的滿足率我們再提醒一次"},{"start":1346.074,"end":1350.576,"text":"我們花了很多的錢好幾十億我們蓋了新產線就是為了要增加我們的製彈量這是第一點第二個我們如果是要增加我們的訓練用彈那你應該用的是普通彈你即使我們普通彈去年編了大概四千多萬的預算四億多然後要買四千多四千多萬發"},{"start":1373.826,"end":1381.768,"text":"事實上好像也沒有足額的提供所以如果像這樣子普通彈是訓練用的你的戰備彈是另外的考量這個部分我們再次提醒如果說你們用這一個沒有辦法好好的解釋我覺得這後續可能還會衍生更大的問題就這個部分提供詳細的資訊我們下去會會同相關單位到委員辦公室向您做完整的說明確定的時間是今年 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那個次長你那個盡量唱首一言"},{"start":104.515,"end":123.252,"text":"非常感谢赖委员对于这个问题的关系非常佩服委员对这个问题的看法我想分三个部分第一个少子女化的成因我跟委员还有各位报告population studies这个是人口学第一集的2000年就有一篇非常重要的论文OECD国家18国他们发现"},{"start":124.053,"end":148.79,"text":"少子女化的一個解決對策是一個多元的一個策略跟多元的問題那麼在這裡面根據多元的問題多元的複雜成因所以要有一個整個相關的一個政策配套那這裡面大概有四個最重要的一個政策第一個應該是性別平等第二個是家庭與工作平等第三應該是有關於公托托育第四最後才是育兒津貼"},{"start":149.651,"end":167.853,"text":"我想這是一個多元的一個組合那這個也是我們少子女化計畫從107年開始到我們現在我們也已經提出一個2.0的計畫到大院我們的一個基本的精神我想大家都知道這個是一個複雜的問題所以我們也必須要有一個整個有效率的策略那但跟委員報告"},{"start":168.874,"end":180.756,"text":"但是在這樣的一個考量之下我恐怕必須要說我們現在目前所提出的這一個條例當然大家都希望能夠共同來解決少子女化的問題但是恐怕"},{"start":182.629,"end":201.174,"text":"恐怕會有偏食的問題會有偏食的問題林瑞琴委員剛剛也有提到就是說政策就是一個選擇你今天選擇A可能會排斥B如果今天我們有一個非常非常充足的財源那當然沒有問題那現在目前就是說你是獨孤一位有可能就排擠到我們現在目前現有的一個"},{"start":203.334,"end":218.922,"text":"一個公托的一個推動還有譬如說相關的一個的一個策略所以這恐怕是第二個問題第三個就成如剛剛委員所說的其實對於我們現在目前很多很多育兒父母來說其實最重要事實上是麵包跟牛奶你現在小孩你要先吃東西啊"},{"start":220.743,"end":242.092,"text":"所以政府現在推測基本上就是想方設法來降低他們的負擔那針對延後幾戶在這一個行政上的一個設計我想聽聽衛福部的說法你認為說延後幾戶有機會提升現在的生意力的增加嗎 還有多少貢獻"},{"start":243.172,"end":262.585,"text":"報告委員我是研究那個人口政策跟福利政策我跟委員報告我在目前國內國際的期刊我沒有看到一篇有關於這方面的研究是沒有沒有人當然就是說但是有有有關於那個儲蓄賬戶這個最主要是為了要減貧就是poverty reduction但是"},{"start":263.365,"end":289.179,"text":"你說用這個來提升生育率這個我是覺得恐怕不可以委員 容許我我想在這裡我們必須要去正視就是在網路上網路上有很多就是說比較針對的一個投資的網紅他有特別講到他竟然是講說不生小孩是存款的一個寬備不生小孩你的財富會更自由"},{"start":290.72,"end":312.792,"text":"很多的年輕人其實慢慢的會受影響說小孩子是一個護資產但回到根本生不生小孩對他們有什麼樣的一個好處我想這是一個很大的一個學問所以你又是這一方面的專家我們希望你可以提供更多的一個資訊給我們倒是我想問一下我們護稅署署長就是說"},{"start":315.753,"end":342.18,"text":"這個租稅的公平行政院是不是可以接受集平計戶的這樣的一個政策你年存10萬然後想那個綜合所得稅的扣除額他18歲提領了數百萬那可是對於窮人來講的話生活會他已經透支了他沒有辦法去儲蓄了他也更沒有辦法享受到這個節稅這個節稅的一個優惠那你提供中手稅那個"},{"start":343.88,"end":359.996,"text":"扣除扣除而來對弱勢家庭是不是有實際上的一個利益那如果你將高所得的享有較大福利的一個減稅的利益是不是會違反了租稅的公平我想站在護稅署的立場是不是可以跟我們做一個分析一下"},{"start":360.476,"end":390.156,"text":"報告委員 委員分析已經非常透徹但是我還是再補充一下就是說因為現在我們在看所得稅的扣除的時候一般是費用的部分那這是屬於存款一般存款跟我們所得課稅是沒有關係這可以觀察在我們所有的包含以前兒少賬戶的相關條例裡面也都沒有給扣除的優惠我們再去觀察美國跟英國他們所推出的這個賬戶也沒有給扣除"},{"start":390.796,"end":407.866,"text":"是沒有給扣除的優惠 都沒有我們非常確定為什麼因為他們觀察到就像委員所講現在有能力再拿錢出來儲蓄存到未來小孩子18歲又給小孩子用的人其實說真的對中低所得者來講是一件很困難的事情"},{"start":408.566,"end":431.597,"text":"非常非常困難所以到最後你每年10萬的限額其實當不獲利者會變得高所得者變得高所得者那我們現在44%的人是不用繳稅36%的人是繳5%所以對這些人來講你給他扣除的減稅率是非常低的非常低到最後都是有錢人在減稅"},{"start":432.637,"end":449.324,"text":"所以所以署長我我當我看到了這一個就是說那個未來帳戶的特別條例裡頭因為我們長期就是在財政委員會裡頭我也覺得說有點混亂掉了到底投資跟除夕對這個少子化有多少深遠的影響"},{"start":449.984,"end":472.429,"text":"那我再請教你現行的徵刑稅跟免稅額度是不是足夠來使用那家長將自有的一個款項存入了台灣的未來帳戶那如果他依遺產稅跟稅法第四條第二項的一個規定家長對於帳戶開戶人的贈意跟現行的那個贈意那個納稅義務人"},{"start":475.531,"end":486.311,"text":"每年得至增跟總額中減免免稅額244萬這對一般的家庭是不是已經適用了如果就是說"},{"start":487.799,"end":505.127,"text":"提供的那個免稅增益額稅額的計算方式的話那這個有沒有矛盾啊是 報告委員齁像我們增益稅現在每年都給244萬的免稅是一個人244萬所以一般我們現在觀察到的大部分的家庭真的都夠了"},{"start":505.527,"end":522.701,"text":"所以你現在變成說是高所得者他在贈餘給小孩的時候他才會碰到課稅的問題那你現在又跟他說不納入贈餘免稅額的計算等於額外給他更多的贈餘免稅那又是剛才就像我剛才講的委員剛才也有觀察到其實到最後還是對高採負責有利"},{"start":524.022,"end":541.33,"text":"是啊是啊这个是不是对帮忙那个有钱的人就开了另外的一道门好谢谢那我想再简单的再那个请教一下我们那个劳动部就是说在这里有一个特别的一个议题要请教劳动部就是说"},{"start":542.53,"end":559.465,"text":"針對的這一份草案第三條跟第十四條允許企業贊助自家員工子女就是說階級化的一個延伸在我看來是這樣子如果就是說這個自家員工的子女這個會不會造成說父母親在哪邊上班"},{"start":560.146,"end":575.375,"text":"然後就決定這個孩子領了多少錢會不會讓我們覺得說企業的贊助有階級化的一個延伸那是不是會讓小孩子就是贏在起跑點上職業決定孩子的身價"},{"start":577.097,"end":593.033,"text":"會不會有這樣的一個情況是委員好委員所提的當然就整個制度設計的時候在主管機關衛福部這邊會做一個整體的考量那每一個相關的制度設計絕對在執行面上都會有一些相對應所反映出來的一個效果"},{"start":593.493,"end":615.442,"text":"是啊沒有錯啊我們台灣不是都只有台積電跟小積電其實我們台灣百工百業我們其他的傳產產業還是佔了八成以上那你想到了就是這些中小企業這些外送員這些基層的勞工他如果沒有企業的贊助的話他的孩子在這一個政策上他是被遺忘了是不是我可以這樣講啦沒錯"},{"start":620.088,"end":641.495,"text":"委員的確會有一些實務上面的反應 是啊好 那我想我們大家再努力啦 因為這是一個很好的一個那個草案那我們怎麼樣那個讓他透過不斷的一個討論可以讓他更周全 好 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝外匯委員 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陳委員好部長好剛剛有聽到有些委員他講到說藍白是倉促的提案但我在這邊就想跟您回顧一下記得11月28我做總質詢的時候是不是我就跟你還有行政院院長垂詢過這個問題了"},{"start":33.03,"end":56.966,"text":"是嗎你還記得嗎11月28的時候我曾經提到有多項政策都可能對少子化有幫助而這個是本來在你主責的衛福部下面所管理的兒少帳戶他的利益非常良好可是後來落實的不好那我跟你提醒一下那天我跟你討論有三個原因為什麼兒少帳戶他沒有辦法做好"},{"start":57.566,"end":78.998,"text":"第一個原因是他的過程比較繁瑣因為必須要這個人實際上去開戶嘛那第二個原因是很多人他是不繼續跟你衛福部去match存錢這些家庭他可能因為一些其他的原因他把資源配置到其他的地方所以他一旦有開戶前面有存後面也就沒有繼續存了"},{"start":79.938,"end":107.579,"text":"那第三個呢我還告訴你說他的那個執行率很差在某些縣市可能四五成但大部分落在六七成所以你既然要做這個國家的戰略工具你應該就是要把它擴大所以當時呢我還舉了英國的例子還舉了新加坡的例子跟你說我認為應該要這樣子做比如說全面都做一個兒童帳戶那你的match也不錯但是遇到"},{"start":108.8,"end":122.451,"text":"不足的 比如說你們衛福部針對的這些中低收入戶等等 它的誘因不足你們應該要把它match1到1.5或者1到2或1到3然後我們還進行了一個財務試算 你還記得嗎你現在想的錢嘛 11月28"},{"start":128.102,"end":145.062,"text":"時間有點久不過確實有類似這樣的對話啦所以當時我就已經propose你一個不錯的做法可以改善你現行的方式而且他在財務上我也都幫你算好了因為退場出去的人多嘛進場進來的人少現在進場是10萬"},{"start":147.765,"end":165.459,"text":"明年很多人怕是9萬8萬欸那假使因為你有這個賬戶 進場的人數變多也不可能多到讓你財務上有很大的負擔我自己也已經送提案了 但是很遺憾11月28 今天已經1月13囉當時你跟行政院院長回覆我說好 你們聽完了以後 你們說你們要回去演你可是我現在一個報告都沒有收到你們說要回去演你喔"},{"start":174.286,"end":178.81,"text":"我一個報告一個回覆都沒有收到那今天你們的報告也沒有寫說你們想要如何來擴展或者是擴大你們現有的發展帳戶因為這個是卓榮泰院長說的啊他近期聽到有這樣子的idea他就說ok我們衛福部有一個兒少發展教育發展帳戶我們應該要把它擴大就只有標題"},{"start":199.145,"end":206.509,"text":"所以今天我是要跟你討論他只有講到標題那你內容你到底要怎麼做因為你今天的報告沒有說嘛跟委員說明我們其實已經一直在研議中應該很快的會有我們的新的做法那一旦有定案之後我會來跟委員做說明"},{"start":220.424,"end":245.256,"text":"那你先講啊你要從哪幾個方向去修改去擴大我想最重要的還是先從這個弱勢優先那我們目前所這個對象上還是只在低收入戶跟中低收入戶我剛已經說了你的弱勢沒有你的弱勢就已經執行的不好我剛跟你講了三四個原因了這是我11月就告訴你了所以你說你要怎麼擴大你可不可以直接給我重點"},{"start":245.976,"end":266.515,"text":"重點我剛剛講的就是三個重點嘛我剛剛講第一個就是對象的擴大往這個邊緣戶這邊來擴大第二個呢是對提撥的部分去加成怎麼樣去增加我們在這個Mutual Fund這個對撥的時候政府的這個挹注可以再多一些你是說是我給你的建議嗎"},{"start":268.457,"end":283.931,"text":"我們現在在規劃的方向啊那第三個就是程序上怎麼讓他簡化大概是從這三個方向那你預計你往這樣子的方向去進行你預計受惠的人數會從現在的人數多多少"},{"start":285.36,"end":300.794,"text":"我們也在做最後的盤點因為這個還有預算的問題到底我們能夠爭取到需要到多少預算那麼就擴大到哪一個margin所以我們有在規劃很快會有這個結論總結而言對於藍白兩個黨我們其實就是要把小朋友的未來當作是一個投資等於是投資他們的未來"},{"start":310.402,"end":329.951,"text":"那之後我們可能會在委員會可能非常感謝昭緯今天排案但是我們之後還會繼續來深度的討論這個議題那第二個想要跟你探討我們的想法也是一樣啦就是這個孩子就是國家的未來嘛那我們應該要更多的這個挹注跟投資啦這個是需要考慮的"},{"start":331.152,"end":352.601,"text":"我的意思是說其實那天我總執行員講得很清楚了這個東西並不是我們獨創的而是其他國家比如說英國 新加坡他們已經做得很好那我們可以再把它拿進來加入台灣的元素去把它擴大畢竟我們現在一年升10萬明年不知道升不升得到9萬或8萬這個是你要面對的問題你要面對問題之一第二個也是這兩個禮拜"},{"start":358.883,"end":377.157,"text":"非常多引起討論的就是很多縣市都已經講到說營養午餐要補貼那如果順利的話可能今年開學以後也就是九月可以很多縣市是免費營養午餐但是呢這個是美國最近我希望你回去可以請你的同仁來研究一下"},{"start":377.697,"end":394.409,"text":"美國最近呢提出了一個歷史性關於營養建議的重置所以他們在這邊寫到英文說是historic reset那他的slogan就是make America healthy again那既然各縣市都已經開始要落實營養午餐免費除了讓小朋友可以吃的免費然後家長減少負擔我們也要讓他們吃的健康所以這個指引我等一下跟你講幾個重點"},{"start":405.757,"end":432.856,"text":"也希望你回去研擬一下他們發表了這個Make America Healthy Again他就特別做了一個網站他去講他以前這個可能部長你都有看過就是我的餐盤嘛以前他們這個我的餐盤是怎麼樣配置的那他們回顧了這幾十年來所有的流行病學比如說肥胖新陳代謝的疾病糖尿病等等心血管疾病那為什麼他們要做改革"},{"start":434.177,"end":448.151,"text":"以前這個參盤你應該很熟比如說穀物 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副主委委員好副主委好 我想問一下如果我們國人在國外去譬如說歐洲然後他要辦理退稅然後因為店員寫錯了國碼把我們台灣的國碼寫成了中國大陸的國碼"},{"start":36.107,"end":49.584,"text":"那這個應該不會是陸委會業務如果要宣導的話應該是政府應該哪個機關去宣導國馬就是因為他寫錯國馬早知道不能退稅啦那所以"},{"start":50.237,"end":68.888,"text":"應該要告訴我們國人說如果以後到了歐洲到其他國家去假設要申請退稅的話在對方的店員在填國法之後你要仔細看不要說因為填錯了害你之後退稅你覺得這個應該要我直覺應該可能是外交部或觀光署應該跟陸委會沒有關係"},{"start":71.59,"end":97.596,"text":"那這個應該如果國人在國外面臨到這樣的狀況政府如果多多宣導的話可以降低國人旅遊的困擾嘛我覺得這個事情也是應該要做了最近又發現一件事情就是有一個網紅叫叫鍾明軒他因為自己就遇到我剛剛講的狀況他去歐洲啦然後因為就是電源的國馬寫成中國大陸的所以他就沒辦法退稅然後他就提醒大家他就發了一個文說"},{"start":98.616,"end":118.783,"text":"各位親愛的旅遊的好朋友如果出國的話 遇到這個狀況要特別注意其實這個應該是一個好事吧結果民進黨不分區立委啊 郭育琴啊就去酸他 說沒事中國人 有事台灣人好像那個郭育琴講的中國人 講的應該是"},{"start":120.543,"end":148.636,"text":"他的中國應該指的是中華人民共和國應該不會是中華民國 對吧聽起來 語意上 對吧那就跑去酸他我是想問一下 就是我不知道因為中民宣我不知道民進黨的立委是怎麼認定中民宣是中華人民共和國的人我不知道他怎麼認定的可能是中民宣最近比較常是不是有去中國大陸他可能有去拍了一些影片在網路上面有受到爭議對 我其實就是想要問"},{"start":149.736,"end":176.852,"text":"副主委啦 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謝謝委員好好 謝謝今天我們在這裡審查反滲透法的修正草案"},{"start":36.141,"end":59.224,"text":"那我想兩岸局勢緊張是不爭的事實那中共對台灣的影響無孔不入我們也都很清楚但是我們跟對岸的差別就是我們是民主法治國家這跟對岸最大的不同所以我們的所有的法令我們應該要堅持法治請問三位認同嗎"},{"start":61.251,"end":88.857,"text":"認同嘛 對所以今天審查的這個法案我看了各部會的報告那特別是法務部提出了很多關於法律明確性還有罪行相當的疑慮我認為這不是推託這個是非常負責任的表現我們非常肯定所以我們立法院的職責就是我們要把法治工程做好 建設好"},{"start":89.617,"end":118.176,"text":"而不能修出一部定義模糊可能會被濫用甚至最後還被憲法法庭宣告違憲的法律所以我今天的質詢我要從法治國原則來出發那我們對反滲透法我們從來沒有反對而且我們也覺得有其必要但是你這部法律你不能夠這個定義模糊所以接著本席就要針對"},{"start":119.657,"end":140.065,"text":"像这个我们有提案这个再来就是我觉得这么重要的法案行政院没有版本好像也不对我们希望行政院有版本那我们就很多委员提出来的特别是针对你参选人针对你参选人你人也没有定义清楚"},{"start":140.95,"end":169.82,"text":"我请问我小学生老师说你未来要的志愿是什么我要选总统你都不定义没有时间没有人的定义我想选总统那他是总统你参选人吗还有我们很多委员的助理可能他想选议员甚至他未来觉得他想接委员的这个职务他开始做了很多确实是你参选人想要做的事情那他是不是就是你参选人"},{"start":171.027,"end":190.384,"text":"人没有定义清楚再来什么叫做渗透怎么样叫做被对岸渗透那如果他是这个有机会他去观光旅游那他是不是然后有一天他来参选他就是被渗透所以像这个部分我想请教"},{"start":193.095,"end":221.071,"text":"我們法務部是不是先來講一下對於本席所說的 你看法 你認同嗎因為你們在裡面 你們就講了嘛法律明確性跟罪行相當所以像這個擬參選人 你要怎麼定義還有滲透 你要怎麼被定義是 謝謝委員垂詢那首先我們這邊立場其實跟委員 以及提案委員一樣我們都認為國家安全的確保以及國家主權的鞏固其實是很重要的"},{"start":221.491,"end":238.442,"text":"那我們提出的法治意見裡面為什麼對女參選人這邊會有說明其實是為了讓法案更加的完善尤其是女參選人該怎麼定義法務部的意見因為我目前的可找到的法治上有三種定義可是三種定義都長得不太一樣"},{"start":239.122,"end":264.355,"text":"那也因為如果從文藝的射程上你參選人會細緻於參選人的主觀我到底想選或不想選最後有沒有一個客觀行為去框定他所以等下像我們一般會用到你參選人以我們參選的經驗就是你可能要去監察院登記有沒有你參選人帳戶不然其他也不叫你參選人嘛所以是不是他登記下去那個算他是你參選人他沒有登記前"},{"start":266.367,"end":279.448,"text":"委員講的是就是政治審判的其中一種定義因為在選八法47條之三的立法理由其實有提到另外一種定義因為這個條文有擬參選人他講的是選舉公告之日起依依政治審判規定報竟監察院"},{"start":281.946,"end":299.927,"text":"報警監察院許可設立政治限定專務之人這個是 這個是這個政治憲法的定義對啊 其實這個它也有定義所以這個當然我們在討論的時候就進入委員會討論的時候我們要用什麼定義這可以討論但是最重要就是不能沒有 沒有界限的定義"},{"start":301.22,"end":325.436,"text":"我們是贊成要訂就把它明訂好對 要明訂 對 這一塊那再來就是滲透呢 怎麼樣叫滲透有什麼明確的定義 怎麼樣叫滲透所以今天到大陸旅遊 算不算滲透吃了一餐飯 算不算滲透這一塊三位都表達一下好了委員你有特定指的是哪一條的構成要件嗎"},{"start":327.01,"end":347.99,"text":"我不好針對我們特別的委員那你們看了你們應該知道滲透沒有很明確的定義啊滲透兩個字因為我們講的明確性原則會套用在兩個地方一個是行政法的明確性原則一個是刑法的明確性原則強度是不一樣的但是滲透都沒有明確指出那你最後到底怎麼樣你可以算他是有被滲透"},{"start":349.235,"end":367.166,"text":"沒有 沒有明確 再來再來因為時間的關係對 應該要再明確嘛所以我希望另外兩個部會的次長跟副主委你們要聽 要了解本席所講的跟法務部的意見那再來還有就是參與"},{"start":369.928,"end":384.658,"text":"我们在这个反渗透法里面出现了参与两个字好今天假设我们设定有某个候选人真的有明确的证据明确的真的有被渗透的事实那你用了一个参与两个字"},{"start":385.118,"end":405.547,"text":"所以在他的競選服務處在他的辦公室幫他打掃的算不算參與打掃的志工幫他端茶水幫他做一些事情的志工幫他做文宣整理的那這些都算參與嗎所以這個太模糊了非常模糊這一塊這個部分"},{"start":409.614,"end":424.692,"text":"我想這樣好了請副主委回答一下副主委你那個參與跟滲透我想委員剛剛講的這個狀況應該不至於啦譬如說我們講參與黑道組織好了如果你是在賭場裡面幫他們做清潔打掃的工作"},{"start":425.757,"end":444.527,"text":"那在检方来讲不会把你当做黑道组织的参与者所以你这个参与没有明确定义所以参与的定义一定是你有共犯的犯意的联络如果说我只是说去某一位候选人那边去打扫那个是不可能的"},{"start":444.727,"end":473.286,"text":"所以你今天講的很清楚就是你的參與那所以我們在法條中當然我們還沒進入主條嘛所以在法條中這個都應該要定義的很清楚才可以是但是但是目前的法條沒有嘛對但是法條永遠不可能把窮盡所有的狀況對但是我們總是要定義清楚嘛包含我們這個法務部也講嘛有些明確性法律明確性跟罪行相當這一塊還是要確認好"},{"start":473.772,"end":495.238,"text":"那再來的話統戰啦來請教一下什麼叫統戰如何定義還有灰色地帶行為那這個副主委可以講一下什麼叫統戰要如何定義那今天是你這個執法單位或者是行政單位你認定是統戰就是統戰這樣很可怕"},{"start":496.058,"end":502.603,"text":"如果是這樣的話那起訴率跟定罪率就不會那麼低了沒有 所以這個"},{"start":504.853,"end":524.455,"text":"對啦起訴率不高啦底下是誰在一直講話徐委員你剛講到譬如說去大陸吃飯這個事情現在辦的主要都是我現在就是講你現在在法條裡你統戰你一定要明確定出來統戰還有什麼灰色地帶行為來你講看看什麼叫統戰什麼叫統戰"},{"start":527.167,"end":539.793,"text":"統戰就是利用各種方式去影響和拉攏台灣這邊的勢力這樣喔 來來來 那接著我們請參事貴姓謝參事剛剛我們副主委講的這個這算明確嗎"},{"start":547.25,"end":556.812,"text":"他剛剛講的那幾句話因為委員所槌尋的其實是在草案目前的第二條有一個灰色地帶行為人裡面有提到統戰活動的部分"},{"start":557.332,"end":581.196,"text":"那因為現在沒有實定法的定義啦所以這東西就變成說當然是有明確定義是最好比較好操作也比較明確但如果沒有明確定義的話可能就要從這個法規的意旨裡面再去從實務發展出來它的確定的外延範圍因為這畢竟他搭附的後面草案是有相關的刑責的規定的那在明確原則上面會稍微嚴格一點"},{"start":581.966,"end":603.465,"text":"那不過統戰行為這邊還是要一方面要參考主管機關相關的說明跟解釋對嘛 沒有定義嘛 灰色地帶呢 灰色地帶呢你也講不出來 所以這很明顯啦這部法律真的 我們覺得要再精準不好意思主席 我最後 你們請回座我最後 中選會很重要 對你也很重要來 我們請中選會好不好 來"},{"start":611.629,"end":623.718,"text":"蔡處長現在我們2026已經進入了升委進階元年你知道什麼是升委吧現在AI的升委很可怕如果今天你看我們王朝偉"},{"start":624.879,"end":645.885,"text":"他未來他在嘉義很強但是如果他的對手在選前幾天突然因為我們立法委員像王委員他在立法院質詢他那個聲音太多了你只要到內政委員會你就可以收集他的聲音然後AI就用他的聲音模仿出來"},{"start":646.625,"end":673.172,"text":"他跟大家說假設他說我承認什麼什麼什麼會影響選舉的讓大家本來要投他的最後不投他或者說身體為一樣或者是怎麼樣我退出選舉這種情況有人做了用AI做了這個假的模仿了候選人的聲音甚至講了一些對選戰具有非常非常影響力的"},{"start":674.392,"end":703.976,"text":"我请问你们有准备吗你们有在选战过程中因为因为像这些身为的东西他在网络上传播只要几秒钟在Line Facebook TikTok或YouTube甚至IG各方面那我请问你们现在在各大平台中选会你有没有建立选举期间的绿色通道你可以用最快速的你有没有一个SOP你最快速的针对这些非常不实的你们可以马上去去澄清有没有办法"},{"start":704.668,"end":731.368,"text":"報告委員依據公職人員選舉罷免法的一個規定你參選人候選人如果是在選舉公告到投票日前一日為止知道有人利用這個網際網路這些媒體來看播他的身為影音那他可以付費向警察機關來申請鑑識那如果警察機關申請鑑識的結果是具有深度偽造影音身為的"},{"start":732.888,"end":746.775,"text":"這個情形的時候他可以向這些看播這些影音的這些媒體啊來這個請求停止看播或是限制瀏覽移除下架等等那如果是意圖使候選人當選或不當選的這種情形"},{"start":749.676,"end":763.641,"text":"公職選辦法104條就有5年以下那如果是用身為影音我不是在問這個耶我想王委員聽得懂啊選前之夜啊那個一傳下去我還什麼請警還取警察機關還什麼"},{"start":764.901,"end":791.903,"text":"那整個都要翻盤了你不馬上出來有一個綠色通道澄清我告訴你隔天那個選舉就很大問題你看我們召委點頭了我要的不是你這個答案你大概沒聽懂啊但是我請你要帶回去因為今天我們這個主委副主委沒有來所以你因為我也不好占用大家太多時間這個是非常非常嚴重的問題非常非常嚴重"},{"start":793.018,"end":811.684,"text":"那我們中選會如果沒有辦法的話進入AI時代我們這個選舉真的會很亂而且這一些在網路上這種伪造身為伪造的然後這樣在這樣傳播在關鍵時候就絕對出問題趙偉你認同啦 認同"},{"start":817.15,"end":836.476,"text":"他要回答包委因為這個如果涉及擬參選人候選人的這個沒有擬參選人我告訴你擬參選人沒有那麼激烈一定是選舉選舉前三天甚至前一天就是候選人對候選人也是包括因為是不是這個散佈的這些影音是不是真實"},{"start":837.376,"end":851.781,"text":"候選人應該是最清楚的後選人如果馬上提出來的時候你們的SOP有多快我們要知道是這個還有你有沒有辦法馬上官方的澄清我剛剛一直講選舉期間你的綠色通道"},{"start":853.142,"end":872.798,"text":"對 現行的機制就是有沒有 你回答我有沒有現行選務機關是就針對選務機關的錯假訊息有一個綠色通告所以你的意思是警察的職權那如果是候選人 涉及到候選人的不實的這些謠言或是不實的 散佈謠言或是不實的事項是要由候選人向警察機關來申請見識"},{"start":877.352,"end":905.437,"text":"那他這個廣遍媒體受到這些所以不是中選會的職權那所以你的意思是我要問警察機關你有沒有綠色通道可以來公告主持這個選舉的這種狀況剛剛提到就是104條如果說有這個機制就是如果是利用身為影音來意圖使人當選或不當選來散佈謠言傳播不實之事的這個是有刑責的"},{"start":906.541,"end":911.742,"text":"至於說什麼是身為營運事由我插話一下他現在委員會來問的是發生他提議之後你們有什麼作為然後能不能遏止是水馬鑽進去找審判單位還是你們有權利來去做歐北人說的有辦法趕快去下架"},{"start":932.926,"end":944.889,"text":"現在這個問題是這樣對啊 甚至你要官方你有這個公權力你可以讓大家知道 欸 這個是像你剛才說的好選人最重要嘛這個是圍罩的 這是真正的價值嘛但是好選人知道的時候要求助他們中選會的時候中選會沒有一個機制出來欸 沒有SOP啊還有那個速度很重要"},{"start":961.232,"end":974.323,"text":"我覺得不管帶一桶都一樣要有好的人才 不可以受到這種的應用他現在 你問的時候是說如果發生這個事情你有多久的時間 可以去寫下來不管你是同步帶一個單位是要公平的選舉"},{"start":988.115,"end":1011.562,"text":"不要讓人家後輩來心肝壞的企業用AI來人家無聊來人家惡惡賊賣這樣不好現在他說的意思是這樣沒有啦 你們現在還沒有啦要加油啦 是不是我想應該是這個答案 好不好加油啦我現在也沒答案啦今天沒答案不表示說"},{"start":1012.956,"end":1014.519,"text":"下個會期你們業務報告的時候這個一定會是很重要的重點"}]}},{"id":"167073","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167073","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce00ffebcc9ddaae28e8a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297e2b1819fafab4f6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:23:42 - 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梁副主委梁副主委 陸委會委員好副主委好這個根據我們的反滲透法的第二條"},{"start":24.843,"end":41.375,"text":"這個有對於這一個境外敵對勢力啊滲透來源還有這一個機關的組織等等之類的都有做定義嘛對不對那我請教一下副主委根據反滲透法的規定那國安局之前有提出一個報告利用黑道幫派地下錢莊"},{"start":43.191,"end":70.655,"text":"這個掩護公司公廟團體民間社團這個五大管道來滲入這個台灣那請問一下那這些是不是也是反滲透法要所規範的一個對象是 但是他可能是可能是第二層或第三層可能是層層下達指令就是滲透來源下面的還有境外敵對勢力所屬組織機構或其派遣之人這個算不算"},{"start":73.44,"end":84.529,"text":"我認為是算的啦但是在證明上面不太容易對 這就是問題所在我們明明知道說中共滲透的很嚴重那這個國安局的報告裡面他也說到"},{"start":85.199,"end":109.385,"text":"他透過這個國安、勤工、統戰部門透過退役軍人、現役軍人、政府機關、輕鬆組織下面的這些管道來進行滲透那我們也看到了這個相關的報告就是說反滲透法施行到現在6年那檢察機關累計起訴了127人那判決確定有罪才5個人"},{"start":110.034,"end":122.534,"text":"平均的刑度只有三個月到六個月那這等於是說滲透的情況這麼嚴重那但是為什麼我們按照這個反滲透法所起訴的人會這麼少那有罪的會更少"},{"start":126.805,"end":145.408,"text":"應該是說他的要證明就是說剛剛有講說第二條因為你必須要證明說他的這些行為是受中共指示或是派遣之人但是往往在這個環節裡面是比較困難譬如說我舉前立委羅志明的案件好了"},{"start":147.09,"end":165.506,"text":"我們看到的資料是它上面確實是由對岸某一位人士指示他做某一些事情但是因為沒有辦法證明說對岸這一位某一些人士他到底是不是在中共的黨政軍職務裡面他到底是站在哪一個位置或是具體職務但是我們這邊的檢調單位也不可能發文"},{"start":170.69,"end":186.296,"text":"過去中共那邊說請問這個人是不是你的哪一個單位的什麼職務所以就變成說你最後沒有辦法證明那個指示的來源他的身份所以往往很多案件都是因為這樣子而無法起訴所以這個我剛講說這個其實是"},{"start":190.441,"end":217.198,"text":"它不是實體法的問題就是說我們實體法定的不管怎麼樣在包含的再多的範圍也好或是怎麼樣它最後會遇到這個核心的問題就是你無法起訴這樣對好那你說不是實體法的問題但實際上法規範就遇到這些問題沒有錯沒有錯好那你剛才舉那個例子我再舉個例子好了講這個馬志威是馬志威他是這個用無黨籍身份來參選"},{"start":218.519,"end":237.591,"text":"那他一審的時候他只有用違反個資法他是到了二審的時候才用這個反滲透法然後判刑兩年多啦那所以你看嘛有這個落差他為什麼一審的時候是用違反個資法那二審的時候可以用到這個反滲透法那之間的落差在哪裡這個落差就是說他必須"},{"start":239.332,"end":266.283,"text":"二審的時候他認定說他的這個資金來源對象確實是中共所派遣之人所贊助的資金在一審的時候法院不這麼認定一審的時候只認為說馬志文你確實有收到錢但是我沒有辦法認定說你所收到錢的來源是中共或中共所派遣之人但是二審是這樣認定所以就是認定上面的問題沒有錯"},{"start":269.384,"end":273.891,"text":"對啊 那所以我們今天要修這個反滲透法是不是一樣也會遇到這些問題勒"},{"start":275.191,"end":297.628,"text":"因為我看各個委員當然都很關心國安的問題被滲透的問題我覺得各位的委員都很關心那很多意見我們也都會參考那但是最後我們還是遇到這個法院他在採取他的證據法則到底是怎麼樣就是說如果他是很嚴格的"},{"start":300.49,"end":324.39,"text":"譬如說要採取要採取跟一般刑事案件的那樣的那個證據法則顯然現在在這個國與國之間的這個關係裡面你很多事情是沒有辦法這樣處理的那我是會建議說我們的各個機關可以去參考其他國家的這個情報工作或是怎麼處理類似相關的法"},{"start":325.111,"end":343.727,"text":"那個案例那而不是說用一般的刑事刑事案件或刑事訴訟法來處理因為就會遇到說我們的這一個檢調非常努力的去查也查出了一些證據出來但是到法院那邊的時候就像副主委你提到的說他們很難去證明說"},{"start":344.386,"end":370.101,"text":"中間的這個連結性是不是如何去證明然後這個證明的確是受過這個中共他所指示的然後這個關係變得很難去連結就變成說在法院這邊的位置他通常會通過好幾層啊然後中共的情治人員他也不會說我就是某某單位的他一定可能說我是某個基金會的或是某個公司的然後公司下面還有公司還有各個"},{"start":371.522,"end":389.374,"text":"掩護性的單位所以這個就變成造成我們這邊在查查的或是說在建立連結的時候是非常非常困難的所以就是說他只要中間有一個斷連出現了就變成說我們的法院去證明說他的確有這個連結性就會變成出現問題了沒有錯那最後一個問題問你就是說在過年之後那現在這一個國民黨準備跟這個共產黨舉行這個國共論壇那陸委會這邊有沒有什麼樣的提醒"},{"start":404.647,"end":411.69,"text":"我們是提醒不管哪一個政黨都是中華民國的政黨不管哪一個政黨"},{"start":412.898,"end":431.172,"text":"都要捍衛中華民國那去跟中共不管哪一個單位談任何事情都要站在中華民國的立場然後不可以去涉及到我們兩岸條例所禁止的一些什麼政治性協議或是等等這樣子那"},{"start":434.113,"end":440.607,"text":"我覺得各個政黨 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secret那麼標示完之後他並不是整整個文件其中有一段那他就"},{"start":79.218,"end":105.211,"text":"就每一段都有這樣不同的標示之後呢那麼它在我想在儲存運用上的時候就會在不同的可以接觸人的這個特別在數位化裡面都會我們會有不同的一個網域在這個比較低層的網域的時候呢不是屬於機密的會往這個低層來送那麼如果是屬於機密的低層的網域的人就看不到這個機密的文件"},{"start":105.871,"end":132.927,"text":"那跟委員報告如果我們要進一步在在整個我們的這些所有相關的這些共同作戰圖像或者共同的情報圖像在不同等級的人要能夠看到這些相關的文件這樣的做法是有必要的好 謝謝部長其實部長剛才你回答的是我可能等一下要問的比較細部的問題那我剛才主要的問題是說我們依照什麼樣的原因"},{"start":133.847,"end":159.426,"text":"認定這個文件是機密或者不是機密那我想過去包含我們在立法院這兩年國安局也好或者是其他的這一個國安相關的單位那我遇到一個問題就是說我發現到很多明顯是公開資訊的事情但是全部都以標示為密件或者是用機密會議的方式提供給我們這些我們在這一個國際關係討論就可以看到的這一個資訊那這就是沒有清晰的把"},{"start":160.666,"end":183.439,"text":"資訊做一個很好的去歸類跟分類那在美國的部分部長我先講完我先說完然後等一下還會詢問你問題所以我看到這一次我們這個開始重視這個每一個標示就表示我們很認真的去要面對說哪些是屬於機密哪些是屬於非機密遇到機密的文件我們要怎麼樣去分段處理做數位的治理等等這未來都是有幫助的儘管一開始"},{"start":184.159,"end":210.7,"text":"會有一些磨合期但是我還是要強調我們對於機密的標示它不可以無限上綱我們必須要比方說這個美國的這個行政命令的第13526號很明確的來去做一個分析對國家安全造成可識別或者是可描述的損害是可以把它標列為機密依照這個機密我們才可以一個一個往上什麼是機密什麼是非機密什麼是最高機密"},{"start":211.36,"end":225.591,"text":"比方說我們看到這個之前我們國安局他在做一些這個簡報的時候他大概是整篇整個文件都是密但是整個文件裡面基本上可能一個段落"},{"start":226.451,"end":247.231,"text":"才是密等其他不是嘛所以為什麼我們要標示的原因也是這樣我們要很清晰的知道說未來哪一些人哪一些層級的人才可以看到哪些需要看到的資訊need to know也是這樣子的所以這是一個很好的嘗試我不會說這是不對的但是很多很細膩的東西我們要開始做首先就是大量的標示機密但其實根本不是機密"},{"start":247.831,"end":267.606,"text":"這就是把文件做非常沒有效率的處置在美國也會有類似這樣的狀況那我們為什麼要有標示機密或者是最高機密為什麼機密的等級而且還要有解密的實現呢因為在民主的國家裡面他必須要能夠回溯能夠去看說過去他這些做出來的決定這些政府官員做出來的決定是對的還是錯的"},{"start":270.007,"end":286.146,"text":"從越戰到這個韓戰越戰到後來的包含這個伊拉克戰爭第二次伊拉克戰爭大量的解密文件後來回溯才知道說當初的戰略想定是對還是錯當初得到的情報是對還是錯當初使用情報的方式是對還是錯"},{"start":287.307,"end":303.137,"text":"那後面的行政人員才可以知道說我們可以從中來得到什麼樣的教訓那以後才可以避免做出這樣子的戰略上面的錯誤所以為什麼戰略上面要公開那在細則上面很清楚的什麼樣的東西是要被列為密等的比方說軍事計畫"},{"start":305.095,"end":332.831,"text":"軍事行動、情報活動還有跟國家安全相關的技術事項甚至是為了保護在美方的話是包含核材料跟他核設施的計畫所以他是有很具體的告訴我們哪些是可以核密哪些是不用核密那我們就不會把我們所有的行政效益的時間放在這上面去但是剛才部長有提到的說一段一段的這個未來的做法各位部長再稍微簡單的跟我們國人來講"},{"start":334.013,"end":337.682,"text":"為什麼要這麼做 這樣做的理由是什麼而且為什麼我們還要持續要這麼做"},{"start":339.75,"end":364.727,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們運作下來我們就會發現到或者是討論到剛剛委員所講的如果是以這個國家經保護法的精神來講是以最小程度和密原則沒錯所以我們分段的這個和密的話呢他就會去認真的檢視這些哪一段是屬於一般公務機密或涉及國家機密或者是屬於可以公開的資訊"},{"start":365.908,"end":387.765,"text":"那這樣子的話 我想我們有這樣子的一個討論讓這個精準和密 也能夠落實這個保密保護機密的這樣的概念的話那包括跟友盟之間有一個互通性那包括在我們不同的網域之間我們有比較低的密集的網域 有比較高密集的網域"},{"start":388.525,"end":412.023,"text":"也讓我們安全調查之後可以涉密的人的這個權限因此可以在不同的這個現在數位治理的情況之下他不同的網系他可以有權限應該看到什麼會更精準的去展示他應該要看到的內容那如果像過去的這樣子的一個和密的方式是做不到這樣子分級分類的做法的"},{"start":412.702,"end":434.032,"text":"非常好那這是一個開始但是我們就避免最開始我們比方說昨天前天我們看到這些問題就是在每一個段落都用無納有些非就是一般文書或者是公開簡報那也是這樣子標示其實我們很快速的就調整了我認為還是要做要做但是一開始會有這一個需要調整的地方我們就快速的去應變就好了因為"},{"start":434.992,"end":460.517,"text":"每一個政策的他在執行的時間他最開始都會有一些磨合期甚至是有的時候可能是有錯誤的地方那我們就把它改正就好我不認為這是這不代表說我們現在做的是錯誤的這代表我們現在做的是正確的但是需要時間跟更完善的溝通所以我必須要強調我看他們之前他們做了十幾年在一開始也會有一個磨合期我們這幾天運作下來我想也會有一些磨合期所以我們接下來會來討論"},{"start":462.677,"end":482.127,"text":"沒錯 沒錯好 謝謝部長所以我剛才要提到的說我是希望因為現在要檢討之後那還有你怎麼去分類指引還有你到底要是怎麼標速你可能還是要有一個快速的諮詢窗口是那這個部分部長你們應該會有所準備吧是"},{"start":483.288,"end":503.63,"text":"就會讓所有的官軍弟兄都知道接下來怎麼處理的方式因為其實一開始還是很亂我們不是很清楚我們要努力的來再宣達然後也要聽取各界的意見包括我們在官兵在做這個的時候那麼他面對的一些困難我們要了解您剛剛提到的核定要件的部分"},{"start":504.21,"end":522.181,"text":"事實上就是一開始的時候我就有提出來那要讓官兵整個了解核定的一些要件在根據那個執行命令裡面核定要件裡面那比方說在美方的話他的最高機密的原始的分類權限是由總統副總統或者是指定"},{"start":523.261,"end":542.374,"text":"機關首長跟官員然後依此類推然後在下面就是指定官方的官員再授權給這個相關的去畫社或者是說相關的指引人員那所以說他們包含每一個來自資深官員的授權就授權說這個是機密就是他要必須要核對這個是機密還是非機密的這些人他本身也要授訓"},{"start":543.234,"end":565.95,"text":"就是他還知道說我們才不會什麼把這個非機密的事情每次為了要就是可能是要快速的要交差就先把它弄機密其實美方也有一些類似這樣的問題那所以說他們會有相關的課程要讓這些和密的人知道說我到底該怎麼標才可以符合行政效率又不會這個過度的來去區分密等那所以"},{"start":566.917,"end":583.471,"text":"在美方那是有一個資訊安全的監督辦公室也就是說你當初把這個權你把這一個文件設立為什麼機密這個官員他的相關的這個名字職位名券都會標示給該官員就是說你去劃定這些資料"},{"start":584.552,"end":601.733,"text":"這些資料是為機密的 劃定資料為機密的這些官員他是會把直寫跟他的名稱是會交給這個資訊安全監督辦公室的也就是說這是一個完整的配套模式他不是說我今天想說這看起來有點重要我就把它變成機密"},{"start":602.173,"end":623.57,"text":"它可能重要但非機密啊它可能是重要可以向人民去公開的資訊但它非機密啊所以它是一個非常複雜也是一個非常重要的一個整個系統這跟我們剛開始建立法院的時候我們說要查核背景人員從那個地方開始到我們怎麼樣去運用文件這個過程是很漫長的那很漫長不代表說"},{"start":625.492,"end":631.829,"text":"最好的方法是十年前就開始做啦那我們知道十年前沒有完整的落實那至少現在開始也是一個"},{"start":633.393,"end":661.072,"text":"也不會太晚那只是說我們現在多討論啦只是說我在最後部長稍微簡單講一下就是說美國在核機密這件事情其實在內部也有很多交鋒因為近年確實有過度把一些非機密的事情變成機密導致他們管理異常困難的狀況那無所不防就等於什麼都沒有在防我們重要的是在高風險的資訊上面的這個核定上那"},{"start":662.533,"end":678.765,"text":"我認為這個才是我們要重視的部分不然現在官民可能會擔心就是說怎麼全部都是機密這樣怎麼辦怎麼樣去處理這些問題所以我剛才提到的這一個包含這個13526號的這個行政命令可以稍微去參考"},{"start":680.205,"end":703.016,"text":"再看 因為這經過15年 美國有很多不同的變化我們還是從中取得跟我們台灣本土 我們自己國軍他們過去的行為模式 也要有一個比較本土化的做法因為直接照抄也不見得是最好的方式但是畢竟美方在機密保護上面 還是領先其他國家很多的"},{"start":704.216,"end":713.794,"text":"可以學習 但是看怎麼樣做一個調和讓我們台灣的這個國軍也能夠重新有一個更好的一個安全的制度在"},{"start":714.784,"end":731.7,"text":"所以我想我完全同意委員的意見就是說我們一方面滾動式檢討那一方面美方已經行之有年我們也會參考美方的做法那一方面我會吸收各界包括所有官兵在和密的過程當中所面臨的問題我們來公開討論的方式我們不是說公開我們會來以討論的方式來進進然後我再補充一點就是說其實"},{"start":740.828,"end":757.226,"text":"美方他儘管是有一些機密跟相關是跟相較於像蘇聯以前這個蘇聯他把幾乎什麼東西都是軍事機密等於是零透明度所以後來所有的東西相關解密之後才發覺到說他們的軍事是極端腐敗的而且是沒有辦法經過集合的"},{"start":757.566,"end":784.747,"text":"相反的因為美國有一個完整的一個國會的制衡基督還有這個新聞媒體的架構在所以他們可以從過去的從越戰韓戰各種不同時間各種不同的衝突上面他經過文件解密之後有更多人去研究過去的一些他們做出的這些戰略也好或者是戰術的執行也好從中不斷的在學習所以美方當然是美軍當然是世上最強大的武力之一不會不斷的在監督稽查然後再去學習"},{"start":785.467,"end":814.787,"text":"那我們既要有美方的這種保密的能力那也會有一個相關相對也是要有這一個能夠去監督跟去集合的方式那內部也要有內部的集合方式所以我剛才提到了這個他們的安全諮詢局他就是看說你們是不是有過度來去標示機密等等所以它是一個很平衡的一個做法那老實說我們過去這幾年來從國軍也好或者甚至是到警政系統因為有太多洩密的狀況"},{"start":815.827,"end":841.875,"text":"太多洩密的狀況導致說包含總統府的行程等等這些都被洩露出去這其實就直接明顯且立即威脅到這個國家的這個領導人的安全那當然我們才要做一些改變所以我想也是藉這個機會跟在野黨的朋友們來講說我們為什麼要這麼做不是要找麻煩而是說在找平衡那在這邊跟所有民眾們報告最後 趙友再問最後一個問題就好關於這個"},{"start":844.796,"end":869.923,"text":"中共陸軍飛彈因為剛才我們提到了彈藥量其中彈藥量裡面除了這些輕型武器之外當然就是另外一個就是防空的能力那近期提到中共的陸軍飛彈的這個陸軍飛彈的數量估計有各個不同的說法那當然那另一方面有人說儘管他們那麼多飛彈但是他們的發射器有不同的立委跟不同的這個退休的軍事人員有不同的指教"},{"start":870.663,"end":894.64,"text":"那不論如何啦我中共或許是有600個發射器他們一次大概怎麼樣等等我想要問的是說不涉及數字我想請教說現有的防空飛彈有沒有辦法阻擋第一波第二波有沒有辦法做完善的這個防護那如果我們不夠的話那要怎麼樣來去補充這個產量跟能量是不是請部長或者是院長來簡單回覆院長要不要先回答"},{"start":895.748,"end":917.833,"text":"就跟委員回報就是委員已經列出來之前媒體刊登有關本院產能的部分重點就是在海空戰力提升特別預算一直執行到現在我們把所有的飛彈產制大概50%以上但51%點幾已經委託給民間來做也就是把你的產能韌性是積蓄在民間中科院負責的只是後段"},{"start":918.593,"end":946.892,"text":"最後的部分所以有50%以上是民間累積這個產能在民間這第一個部分第二個就是說我們不能判定解放軍他的空襲會打幾波但是我們的彈藥存量就是以能夠抵禦他大部分的空襲為準當然這個是如果要長時間維持下去的話沒有人會講自己的彈藥百分之百都是夠所以我們未來努力的方向就是把防空和反艦飛彈我們會去做模組化和低成本大量製造的設計這個"},{"start":949.133,"end":977.479,"text":"能量我們會在三年之內建立這也是在惡霧戰爭之後我們學到的一個寶貴的教訓那另一方面我還是要提到大家都會把攻擊方的無人機或者是飛彈我們當然是用全力的來增強我們的防控能力但是也不用把他們的能力來無端的誇示比方說在2025年年底俄國是出動了40枚飛彈跟500多架無人機那造成的死亡人數是零"},{"start":979.362,"end":1001.811,"text":"那一次那一波是死亡人數是零 為什麼有完善的防空系統的話我們是有機會能夠擋下的500架無人機跟40枚飛彈它會造成基礎設施的傷害但是我相信我國的防空能力希望可以比烏克蘭更好那當然就是要有更多的資源放進去那在戰前 在衝突之前做最好的準備就不會有戰的問題所以備戰就不會有戰爭"},{"start":1005.892,"end":1023.652,"text":"只要他們知道說我們的能力可以讓他們就算不斷的生產還是沒有辦法造成我們的主要的損失的話他們就會三思而後卸這就是賀祖我們的賀祖必須要把資源放在刀口上面放在我們的防空能力我想他們一開始就會失敗謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167055","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167055","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce022eba5e1f74f0d8be6ea9f55fbd6b875603d53f4e90152979be7746c6163105b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:52:56 - 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.089,"end":1.21,"text":"謝謝最美麗的召委來有請我們考試院劉建新秘書長還有我們權敘部施囊結施部長行政院人事總處我們張秋元副人事長還有部長我來請教一個問題"},{"start":29.246,"end":53.512,"text":"我們公務人員請假的規則 這個第三條第一項第六款現行的規定配偶跟父母 貴姓企料 父母跟配偶死亡者傷假15天繼父母配偶的父母跟姪女死亡者給傷假10天然後曾祖父祖父母配偶的祖父母配偶的繼父母兄弟姊妹死亡者5天"},{"start":56.178,"end":80.845,"text":"這個邏輯我不知道這個邏輯是怎樣我們一直在講說我們往上從己身所從出往上從己身所出後面的人說要走 慈禧學信北清書這個假有的十五天有的十天有的五天你們那個背後的思維跟邏輯到底是什麼痛苦"},{"start":84.702,"end":92.005,"text":"對不對 應該是講痛苦啦 說啊 現在父母親死掉 一定會很痛苦可是現在小孩子死掉了 就不痛苦嘛配偶死了 多痛苦啦 我覺得這怎麼量化的問題怎麼去量化 那我都會覺得說這有點舊時代的一個思維啦你很難在現代社會裡面 家庭結構已經改變了那我們再去 你看本身的兄弟姊妹就變五天"},{"start":112.262,"end":139.173,"text":"這好奇怪然後公務人員呢父母親死掉的是商架是15天那勞工的就變8天繼父母的部分呢跟配偶的父母子女死亡者10天勞工的部分呢又變6天這個既然是在講痛苦那這個痛苦為什麼會有這個我們先不談說公務人員跟勞工"},{"start":142.671,"end":165.964,"text":"光這個公務人員體系裡面這個整個親疏之間痛苦的量化還有說可能辦喪事要很久可能有這樣的思維邏輯在這都我覺得很亂的是不是以現代社會的家庭的結構少子化你說父母親照顧小孩所以死掉要給他很多"},{"start":166.823,"end":182.236,"text":"合理啊 我認為很合理啊因為父母親嘛 養我們的嘛可是有的人是父母親當然我們要孝順他可是像我們這個鄉下的父母親哪有時間教養我們都沒有啊 都要去工作啊都是阿公養我們啊那對我來講那個阿公反而要給他20天30天"},{"start":187.261,"end":209.798,"text":"不是嗎 那現在社會家庭又改變了可能互相扶持 大家感情最好的你要講痛苦的話 搞不好兄弟姊妹那個死亡的話 應該是更痛苦啊所以你有沒有感覺啊這在剛才 婦人市長在這裡比如說 你的看法 我看你一直笑你的看法是怎麼樣 那個邏輯你不覺得這個應該做一個改變嗎"},{"start":211.811,"end":229.045,"text":"這個題會牽扯到不同的比如說商場習俗家庭觀念現在社會家庭結構的改變的確會有委員講的那樣子就是他會有很多觀念可能過去定的規則現在看起來會有一點不完全合宜或者是邏輯上不完全一致"},{"start":229.747,"end":243.647,"text":"所以我的意思就是每一個家庭結構每一個人對祖父母或對父母或對兄弟姊妹之間那一種感情那種感情大家感受會有所不一樣那這個思維就是在講痛苦那第二可能講說"},{"start":246.734,"end":255.078,"text":"這麼親密的人死掉了 可能要自傷嘛自傷每一個人又不一樣 宗教別又不一樣有人兩天 有人三天 有人一個禮拜像我在鄉下 我父母親過世 我就給他一個月我就自己拿著那個父文 去告訴 通知我爸爸媽媽他們最好的朋友 說你再生的誰誰誰已經過世了讓他們知道 也是這樣子而已啊"},{"start":269.085,"end":282.23,"text":"我拖一個月耶 我要三天全國這樣一直照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照"},{"start":287.452,"end":307.225,"text":"然後我們用舊時代的規章去把它做量化但這個量化出來 以現在來看到底合不合理我真的是存疑啦我真的是存疑啦六天 你說現在在家裡的保溫到三天而已啦你說配偶的 配偶的父母又是十天啦 又是十天啦這看起來我就覺得這個邏輯都很亂剛有辦法來做一個研議 來做一個"},{"start":315.319,"end":344.404,"text":"好像比較跟上跟得上我也不敢說這樣就跟不上時代是不要讓他那麼混亂畢竟太久沒有去考慮這個問題啦這個我印象中這個請教規則你問我說哪一個幾天幾天說不上我也答不上我也不跟你說那個確實有不同的用天數啦是上限這個請教規則很久很久沒有修過了說真的就這個部分啦"},{"start":344.952,"end":362.248,"text":"所以你也感到樂觀其成 就是說我們來 委員會有跟我們來想想看想一下就想一下 這樣看有沒有他一定當初有當初各式各樣的考量只是都是考量現在所以我們現在就是放得糊裡糊塗啦當初的考量 但是現在不一樣啦再想想看啦 夫人 次長 你的看法"},{"start":365.263,"end":386.991,"text":"我做一個說明啦就是這個真的是因為真的規則從三幾年發布這樣一直下來那過去商價應該會像委員剛才講的可能跟我們過去的這個智商的習俗等等的都會以那個那個當事人的為核心嘛 北部就可能"},{"start":390.413,"end":410.163,"text":"會比較久月父母等等的所以會有不一樣的的確時間是過去延期下來我們會配合全部再來看看應該現在的變動這樣是不是合宜謝謝還有在我最後一分鐘以下那個法務部次長請上來一下好"},{"start":417.455,"end":437.595,"text":"市長我看這次台灣民眾黨提出的刪除勾串共犯跟證人作為羈押室友的一個修法的一個提案我想過去這個社會其實是有很大的一個爭議那今天這個案子排進來本學必須要很嚴正的去講出來以現在來看的話你刪除掉勾串共犯跟證人"},{"start":438.871,"end":455.192,"text":"我比較擔心的是會貪玩掉兩個重大犯罪一個溯源的一個能力你像譬如說我們現在很多這個如果刪掉的話我為什麼有很大的一個疑慮你詐騙的話你就抓到了人如果說不能押"},{"start":456.001,"end":476.273,"text":"然後金流繼續在跑手機也繼續在通然後上游的人在幕後的大家都笑嘻嘻我很擔心這個拆掉整個刑事司法裡面再抓一個重大犯罪的一個架構我當然知道這個提案是希望讓它更文明可是我很擔心這個文明到最後變失明"},{"start":477.594,"end":484.821,"text":"簡單你 你們到底有沒有什麼樣的一個想法跟配套或者說這樣的一個修法會不會產生怎樣的一個衝擊聽你的看法"},{"start":486.738,"end":511.652,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想原來的法律的規定就是法官審查已經非常的完備了我們執行這麼多年來也沒有問題那現在如果把這個勾竄證人共犯跟被告刪除的話如委員剛才所講的這些重大的經濟犯罪還有科技洩密還有國安案件 詐團這些案子如果主嫌犯沒有押起來相關的人沒有押起來的話"},{"start":512.774,"end":528.588,"text":"出去 馬上把他的髒證物處理掉人就跑掉了所以你們也擔心產生很大的重點非常的擔心我們非常非常的不樂見這樣的修法好啦 那我們再考慮一下啦謝謝阿杜仔忘記給考試員跟人總先請回很抱歉謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"167067","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167067","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce02c2e86df33b9435c8a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e901529766fd7484734a17d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:32:19 - 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主席我們有請法務部跟內政部請問法務部內政部市長好 參事好我想今天是反滲透法修正的這個審查那本來想要保衛國家安全是一個"},{"start":32.537,"end":53.514,"text":"都是朝野共通的目標但是每一個法律條文都牽一把動全身我們絕對不能侵害到我們人民的基本權利那更不能成為特定政黨操作意識形態用來追查老百姓的這個武器我想看這次的反滲透法的修正有一個非常奇怪的地方就是沒有行政院的版本"},{"start":53.974,"end":70.656,"text":"那本期仔細看了各部會針對民進黨立委版本的修正意見其實就可以了解到說為什麼行政院沒有提出版本因為各部會都明顯知道說許多法條的修正條件跟現行的法規都有互相抵觸或重疊的疑慮尤其是我們法務部"},{"start":71.356,"end":98.829,"text":"都不斷的表達這個見情在左那代表對於修法存在許多不同的意見那所以如果我說萬一倉促的修法恐怕對國會很基本的權益造成非常大的傷害因此本席也認為如此知識體大的修法如果執政黨執意要修行政院應該負起責任盡快提出我們的院版那立法院才可以跟我們院版一起來並案來審查我想這是一個執政黨如果要修法應該有的基本態度也是對我們國會的一個尊重"},{"start":99.673,"end":126.09,"text":"那就在上個禮拜 王美惠召委安排國安法的審查的時候我們當時行政院還有民進黨立委的修法版本中打算增訂這個國安法第四條之一只要政府認定網路上的內容是假消息錯誤就可以要求網路平台的業者刪文刪掉他的帳號 甚至把民眾各自交出來這個完全就是侵害到民眾的網路言論自由"},{"start":126.77,"end":140.1,"text":"我想不只是國安法行政院之前提出這個社會秩序維護法的修正草案同樣也有嚴重侵害到人民自由的疑慮我想只要政府認定有仇恨性的言論就可以刪文跟刪帳號那簡單的來說這兩個修法的結果就是"},{"start":145.834,"end":171.368,"text":"只要政府覺得有問題甚至看得不開心就可以處罰民眾完全沒有一個明確的標準這是行政濫權那這是為什麼本席要呼籲這次反這個反滲透法的修法應該玩這個院版的這個草案因為民進黨最近提出的這個修法都存在許多重大的爭議甚至被各界質疑是要推動網路戒嚴或是要跟這個人民的這個自由權益相關的法律這要小心謹慎"},{"start":173.169,"end":188.628,"text":"那這個也是為什麼上週我們會招委排這個玩法的修法的時候因為各界的聲音非常多所以爭議也相大我們大家達成共識就是由國民黨跟民進黨各辦一場公聽會凝聚各方的共識再來進行逐條的審議那"},{"start":190.609,"end":208.255,"text":"我想大家都要很清楚記得說反正都把政府法律當時在立法的時候就引起社會非常大的這個爭議因為這個有前置這個言論自由跟限縮兩岸交流的嚴重疑慮那當時因為民進黨是大多數那多數可以強行的闖關那先前也有委員提出一份法務部統計的這個數據嘛2024年大選期間"},{"start":212.096,"end":227.595,"text":"我們違反這個反滲透法還有選罷法高達多少人416人那結果偵辦結果是有八成不起訴跟無罪那這代表這個法律耗了相當大的這個偵查的資源那結果大多數都是沒有結果"},{"start":228.393,"end":252.269,"text":"那這恐怕會造成這個國人的這個寒蟬效應那因此這邊本席要在最後的強調法律是要確保國家安全跟社安定那維護中華民國的主權及自由民主的憲政秩序我們絕對不能淪為這個政黨用來鬥爭還有追殺異己的武器反勝鬥法的修法絕對不能因為意識形態而衝擊到人民的基本權益"},{"start":253.49,"end":261.922,"text":"那如果執行長要這麼想要推動這個法律的修法的話那請行政院盡快推出版本我想這才是負責任的態度以上 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咱家李博弈委員質詢謝謝 我有請入委會梁副主委家梁副主委"},{"start":17.213,"end":37.811,"text":"市委好謝謝副主委我們上個禮拜一在這邊審國安法同步我們在審國安法的同步我有問你那你有掌握到相關的訊息非常及時的就是我們在審國安法那國台辦就片面宣布制裁劉世邦部長跟鄭英耀部長但是少了少講了一個檢察官"},{"start":39.281,"end":50.639,"text":"那中國在處理包含片面的宣布直接說這是台獨頑固分子之外就會入罪於他們的反分裂法"},{"start":51.636,"end":74.961,"text":"那再來指名我們的辦國安的檢察官這個也要直接入罪他們的懲毒還是可能也是反分裂跟懲毒嘛那再者今天我們在審的這個反滲透法其實台灣的民主就是我們是靠選舉"},{"start":76.704,"end":103.405,"text":"那各政黨有推出候選人的政黨包含執政黨或者是大小在野黨也好或者是有其他理念的政黨也好有一個政黨在境外最關心我們的選舉的其實無非就是共產黨那共產黨的借選他其實根本就已經不是自己跳出來候選人"},{"start":105.103,"end":130.856,"text":"沒有辦法自己跳出來當候選人而已他透過各種的方式來想要意圖影響台灣的選舉所以我們今天 包含我提出來的第四條 第五條 第六條 第十一條等等的我們都希望降低我們隔壁的惡鄰居想要介入我們選舉的各種可能性"},{"start":131.772,"end":158.711,"text":"那我覺得一個法條我想要放一個例子進來在馬英九時期的陸委會副主委張顯耀副主委當時在2015年的時候是被當時的政府以外患罪去辦他對不對那當然沒有辦成嘛因為他很多市政剛剛有講過那可能都在境外"},{"start":159.673,"end":184.87,"text":"但是他在2025年的時候被起訴用反滲透法這個法律重不重要 重要這部反滲透法他在2025年的時候把前陸委會主委但是也是現任中國國民黨智庫執行長張顯耀起訴了起訴的內容有什麼第一個他寫報告去給國台辦說他會勸郭台銘簽和平協議"},{"start":190.436,"end":212.495,"text":"第二個他有錄音檔為證第三個他發布了很多的假民調都是郭台銘會領先侯友宜而且他明明知道侯友宜已經被中國國民黨提名了那他還意圖用這個假民調來換掉侯友宜嘛那他背後是誰反滲透法是不是就要處理這件事情是"},{"start":214.105,"end":241.13,"text":"如果沒有反滲透法的話這個怎麼處理當作一個政黨在借選嗎當作一個共產黨公然的在幫郭台銘服選嗎如果沒有反滲透法的話張顯耀先生應該不會被偵辦因為他的行為就變成是說他跟國泰辦在討論哪一個人適合來選台灣的總統而已就這樣所以反滲透法的必要就是說我們對於這類企圖"},{"start":243.59,"end":271.616,"text":"跟中共有關係的人來介入台灣選舉的時候我們至少有可以追溯的一個法律但是至於最後能不能具體的定罪能不能具體的定罪那個還是要看法院法院的怎麼怎麼判決因為我覺得這個案子這個案子我覺得有一些有一些行為是已經很清楚行為在起訴書可以看得到行為是很清楚的可以看到這一個人他到底在做什麼到底"},{"start":272.276,"end":295.643,"text":"民眾在電視上看到誰要配誰誰要配誰的時候哇原來是背後有北京有國台辦在這邊下這些指示欸是你沒有這些偵辦你也看不到國台辦這些指示欸你以為只是臆測欸是沒錯最後齁還有一點齁其實我們在第四條裡面提出來的這個"},{"start":296.799,"end":304.928,"text":"增加的 修正的這些條文裡面把這個 擬參選人放進來 然後另外把政黨初選 政黨提名放進來"},{"start":306.705,"end":326.325,"text":"很遺憾還沒看到國民黨的委員可以提案因為依照如果依照國民黨黨主席在選舉的時候郝龍斌跟趙少康的指控中國借選他們應該要提出來啊所以他們應該提出來他們就是被共產黨影響到的啊副主委你又沒有什麼看法"},{"start":327.784,"end":347.141,"text":"關於政黨的選舉或黨主席的選舉要不要規範我們黨內是有黨內初選但是我們提的我們是沒有幫中國國民黨提說他們的黨主席選舉應該要防止中共借選應該要把它放進來才對不過以前的選罷法也沒有規範各個政黨的黨內初選後來是有擴張到規範各個政黨的黨內初選"},{"start":353.286,"end":380.774,"text":"所以也許 也許反滲透法好不好你講的這個不對 這個跟我們今天要講反滲透法的精神不一樣在哪裡你剛講的刑法如果 選罷法 有傷害選罷法 沒有沒有沒有 我另外講我舉例刑法 你說選罷法嘛那我另外舉例 刑法如果傷人 他當然會受到刑法的制裁嘛但是他如果因為他的言論被北京指示 他被打了"},{"start":381.786,"end":404.338,"text":"我們主張這一個行為應該要加重刑責為什麼因為他被傷害不只是他的身體他還傷害到台灣的民主跟法治喔所以我覺得今天的反滲透法為什麼要把這些釐清重點就是在於他不只有傷害不只有恐嚇那甚至他有可以叫說黑幫等等的這些行為"},{"start":405.259,"end":421.434,"text":"這些一定要必須要受到反滲透法的這些約束但經過調查我們最好可以掌握具體的證據那我們才可以非常明確的告訴國人我們正處於什麼樣的環境我們要注意哪些事情"},{"start":422.099,"end":446.871,"text":"是委員有提案而且事實上我們現在有看到一些案子他被指示來台灣所做的事情不是什麼影響選舉或什麼他可能就是針對某一個人的言論然後他指示某一個黑幫的成員去恐嚇甚至傷人或是跟蹤他或者是潑妻或是打人類似這樣"},{"start":447.728,"end":463.864,"text":"那這個東西到目前我們反滲透法還沒有具體規定我有看到委員還有其他委員有提案那我覺得這個都是值得討論的對 我們主張這不只傷害個人人身它還傷到台灣的民主法制我們必須要入法 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大家的選舉也這樣 總統選舉也這樣 立委選舉也這樣 官司長選舉也是這樣"},{"start":77.466,"end":80.148,"text":"這都是越來越糟糕了沒有今天一個反滲透法 有人說這又修改沒幾年 又一百公九年 修了到現在也比較六年了還要修什麼 因為施工配件沒工 攝氈也沒工啊"},{"start":99.305,"end":109.397,"text":"將來對中華民國的台灣的打壓尤其選舉的時候那種概念是非常嚴重為什麼今天我會講到這氣氛"},{"start":114.929,"end":124.094,"text":"因為這個選舉 如果有阿強這個陸執來處理的位好的人才 全北省的學位都沒有辦法出頭去啦主要你可以聽阿強的位 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你他們就回去啦"},{"start":287.503,"end":291.044,"text":"我們是要如何做好滲透法我還不知道選舉10天前要做什麼你說的是現在的進行式我們是想說未來的選舉有機會今年11月要選舉是要如何去處理候選人及候選人在這個過程當中"},{"start":314.249,"end":320.674,"text":"我問一下,你可不可以幫一下馬智偉小姐馬智偉小姐,她在2023年發生她如果去生我們2024年,如果她跌的時間多久呢?如果她跌一次,我們跟她,因為我們有掌握她拿到阿公的錢"},{"start":344.824,"end":348.145,"text":"在這個過程中,我就是要說,你們要怎麼去認定?我還不知道選舉10天前不能做什麼,選舉要做什麼?這也就是說,三位你們也知道,現在是要怎麼樣?你們去議訪,要去記念那11個禮拜"},{"start":364.345,"end":371.253,"text":"要怎麼處理還要緊啊你認為 大家也一樣 剛好選人的時候 選舉之後 甘愛乖乖 甘愛不選舉的時候來聽阿強的 聽阿強的字給我們 這是嚴重啦"},{"start":383.922,"end":406.614,"text":"包委員這個可能跟這個有意參選的這個候選人他可能有一些是涉及反滲透法的刑事責任的規定那這個剛剛就是法務部可能檢察官的一個權責那有些可能是賄選或是等等那有一些如果是涉及行政違規的部分那這是選務機關的一個權責"},{"start":408.126,"end":414.268,"text":"所以在這裡我知道因為我們每一行有每一行他們的責任在哪裡這次你們的選委員會的時候也要去注意這個不是你如果我本身回答說港澳電機要十天你的未來你自己也要做得好對不對大家一分錢收出來是每一單位都可以啦這些的問題犯罪的問題來講解啦"},{"start":438.24,"end":447.383,"text":"不然大家在這裡開這要做什麼反滲透法對中華民國的台灣是非常重要的不是要捨棄什麼人的自由啦在剛才我跟你們說的在台灣這件事我們大家都看得一清二楚這是要害台灣的在這裡面我們要跟我們"},{"start":466.185,"end":481.233,"text":"內政有次長說到說我們有款滲透法破壞社會秩序的範圍當中啦有的是海課啦 有的是什麼啦來 我們司法部來 司法部主席拜託給我一點時間 抱歉"},{"start":491.92,"end":520.613,"text":"來 蘇阿布 本席要跟你說因為大家的時間都有一點本席要說像現在的選舉如果在網路在那裡說的有的沒的大家的風態跟很多人中的跟之前的政府都不一樣跟人也沒有對比這要怎麼處理蘇阿布"},{"start":521.269,"end":534.722,"text":"是副處長嗎來請副處長回應主席說明這個如果是在相關言論我們在個別的法規都有相關法規處理那抒發部會在技術的部分協助各個部會處理這樣的問題來 本席的來賓"},{"start":539.741,"end":552.646,"text":"他今年會在外面選舉那有人在網路說跟這個就等久以來就都在報廣場還要選什麼議員 要選什麼管理長還在網路這樣跑的時候你要如何去做來來 蘇阿布要怎麼去擋路來 要怎麼去處理 要怎麼去訂車來"},{"start":567.868,"end":580.784,"text":"報告員這個部分我們可能會跟相關選舉事務負責的單位共同來研究他來研究要研究多久人研究以後一個好的人才跟剛才研究以後跟一個好的人才就算了跟這個就算了"},{"start":586.187,"end":592.951,"text":"所以我們要時間,不是說你還有事情要簽上簽上,跟人家一過禮拜過,那個人家就算了啦但你給他的時候,是要你一過禮拜的時候,那都不好啦"},{"start":606.287,"end":618.436,"text":"報告委員 這個網路的部分我們一直都有在跟各個部會進行那這部分面臨接下來沒有啦 之前還沒有實際去做沒有時間 觀念去查好了啦到目前現在 從安委開始算的 還在他就這樣廢課 亂來亂去啦所以這個 我很愛處理"},{"start":635.499,"end":642.362,"text":"要願意你回去研究的時間拜託一禮拜的時間給我再來我問我們內政部部長在這裡面如果對我們中華民國有損害他的組織政黨在長久以來都是替中華的公衛和大夥中華民國的台灣"},{"start":664.72,"end":677.758,"text":"政府有提出再一檔嗎我想謝謝委員的指教我想那個有關目前政黨裡面大概有一個統促黨"},{"start":678.983,"end":695.296,"text":"到現在目前為止你怎麼處理跟委員報告 董事長因為我們的審議委員會過了之後就是要送憲法法庭啦跟憲法法庭現在要怎麼處理憲法法庭目前委員的人數也不太夠對啊 重點就是這樣啊要處理跟憲法法庭 跟這個國家 這個委員會是要做什麼"},{"start":705.235,"end":722.321,"text":"該做的 該派人的要處理就處理你什麼力量都沒關係 為了中華民國 如果不準 一定不會這樣嘛所以我們要去克服 可是你剛才跟我說的明明知道他有罪 明明知道他要解散了 但是我們沒有辦法解散"},{"start":728.783,"end":735.808,"text":"因為社會法庭都要動筆啊是不是這樣來是啦齁 跟你們怎麼做跟委員報告齁 我想當然那個只要是違反政黨法相當規定"},{"start":742.076,"end":751.562,"text":"那照程序我們會先召開審議會我知道啦 召開審議會後就是送憲法法庭啦憲法法庭要授禮跟審議現在就是我們要點啊點 我們要等 問啊問就是沒辦法繼續給他們亂 是不是這樣不然你還有什麼辦法可以處理的"},{"start":768.462,"end":771.885,"text":"報告委員 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參事好 剛剛其實很多委員都有提到說反滲透法上路到現在六年確實面臨到高起訴低定罪這樣的狀況那我在這邊想要請教的是就是這麼多高比例是無罪的那你認為現在是不是法律上要如何跟上這個實務上的這個落差首先先跟委員報告應該是我們的起訴率也算低啦我們是低起訴率"},{"start":46.024,"end":69.297,"text":"那因為案子進來我們還會篩選 只是三年之後送到法院這邊來審理的案件那確實有一些是無罪案件 我們也會檢討啦那 不過蜥蜴它的內容大概會有幾個原因第一 有一個原因是因為證據蒐集不易的問題因為這些反滲透法的案子 一個是牽涉到你跟對岸所謂的敵對 境外敵對勢力之間是不是有所謂的資助或是委託這些關係"},{"start":70.177,"end":87.328,"text":"那這個證據有時候存在於海外或是不是那麼曖昧是曖昧不明的不是那麼的清晰在證據證明上有個斷點另外就是這種起訴的反送中法案件很多都是綁公職人員選舉罷免法的會選行為那會選行為本身的證明的門檻就很高對於投票行為投票意向"},{"start":87.948,"end":108.815,"text":"跟這個所收受的代價之間的對價關係事實上本來就是實務上比較難證明也比較容易被拆解的一個點這是一種方向就是出於證據跟法律構成要件本來就不容易證明第二個是確實有部分我們發現確實是因為在南部我們有看到案例是因為法規它明定的必須是在參選之後的參選人"},{"start":110.976,"end":121.295,"text":"那你參選人的部分確實有部分是判決是以此為理由認為說因為當時的階段只有你參選人而不是參選人所以因此"},{"start":122.063,"end":140.801,"text":"構成壓界不該當而判決無罪的狀況大概初分大概有這樣的原因存在好 謝謝參事的說明所以其實在我的提案裡面特別把擬參選人也放進去那剛剛其實我有委員也有提到說認為擬參選人的定義不明那我在這邊請教一下參事請問在政治獻金法裡面是不是針對擬參選人有一個定義"},{"start":144.276,"end":167.982,"text":"這邊跟委員報告 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但是它就會變成沒有問題"},{"start":375.868,"end":402.497,"text":"那所以為什麼我有看到陳冠廷委員他有提出那個國安法國安專庭的這個概念也就是說我們是不是有可能就是法院的部分他特別是他特別針對國安案件他的刑事訴訟的規定或是證據採納的這個方式和一般的刑事案件是不是應該要有一所不同或者是說他有一個特殊的進行方式"},{"start":404.718,"end":428.229,"text":"到目前我們國家對於國安案件其實是按照一般的刑事訴訟法在處理的所以往往調查局的或是國安局的他們花了很大的力氣到最後到法院就變成是無疾而終所以委員剛剛所講的這些案例我們都很清楚"},{"start":429.429,"end":454.859,"text":"那這些案例呢我認為是最後要回到法院那這個我們在反申訴法或是國安法裡面不管我們怎麼實體法裡面我們不管怎麼規定你最後都是要都是變成是法官在判決的時候他會他們按照他們自己的認定方式去處理所以我覺得可能陳冠廷委員的那個提案我們可以仔細考慮"},{"start":455.819,"end":475.552,"text":"好謝謝副主委說明我也認為說目前的司法見解跟實務上的落差非常大那為了避免跟現實脫節我也認為接下來這些構成要件必須要精進第一個也不會造成民眾說不小心誤觸法網第二個也讓我們可以更明確的在法律上可以去定罪那最後我要建議一下我還是認為"},{"start":476.412,"end":504.945,"text":"目前最好的方式是揭露包括揭露這些金流包括接受這些代理人的行為模式包括接受這些代理人的身份所以揭露是第一步所以我還是希望接下來有機會的話我們陸委會可以跟各部會大家來討論一下是不是應該進行代理人法相關的討論或者是說這些身份上的揭露金流上的揭露是不是應該進一步的規範"},{"start":505.905,"end":531.521,"text":"是 謝謝委員的這個指教那這關於反社同法因為這部法律它的主管單位是行政院是行政院所以我們各個部會其實到目前為止並沒有一個提出質疑的那如果相信經過立法院的討論之後我們帶回去我們也許會提出一些這個自己的方案出來好 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我們請內政部吳次長跟法務部謝參使法務部參事跟內政部吳次長"},{"start":23.707,"end":46.113,"text":"市長其實從反滲透法立法以來在適用對象跟構成要件的明確性上本來就有很多討論的空間那這次委員提出的修法方向無論是涉及你參選人的定義跟範圍還有試圖將錯假訊息與證券交易相關法規的連結或是針對政黨解散的程序的一個設計行政部門"},{"start":47.173,"end":59.828,"text":"都提出了可能會違反刑罰明確性跟罪行相當性或與現行法規跌床駕屋的疑慮所以本席今天針對部會報告中所點出的具體的法理爭議"},{"start":61.311,"end":83.749,"text":"請兩位能夠秉持專業向國人清楚的說明這些說法的方向是否適當首先請教有關委員提案建議將你參選人納入反滲透法第四條的適用對象但是我注意到法務部在書面的報告中已經明確的指出參選與否在正式登記前屬於浮動的一個狀態"},{"start":85.37,"end":104.211,"text":"目前對於女參選人的表態意願並不存在任何可供客觀判斷的法律標準而內政部也坦言反滲透法中的現行條文對於女參選人並無明確的規定所以刑法與準刑法規範一向強調罪行法定原則與法律明確性的原則"},{"start":104.972,"end":122.414,"text":"所以若法律連你參選人自何時起算認定標準為何都無法的清楚的界定那請問一般的人民如何預見自己的行為是否違法而行政跟司法機關又將依據什麼樣的標準執法與裁量呢請回答"},{"start":123.066,"end":148.704,"text":"好謝謝委員我想在這次的一個修正的內容部分對於你參選人的部分他是並沒有很明確不過當然參考包括政治先進法其實裡面都有一些可以做公參考那我是覺得這個可以讓各個委員來做個討論如果把它定義的明確當然是可以用對就是我剛講的其實就可能很多法規是疊窗家屋既然在政治先進法那邊已經有確認了為什麼在這個"},{"start":151.165,"end":176.572,"text":"反滲透法又再加入進去那請問一下謝參事您的意見謝謝委員崔詢基本上因為這部的草案裡面新增的所謂的女參選人的部分他其實比較大的會引致的疑慮是他沒有做女參選人的定義那女參選人這四個字其實在我國我所找到至少有三個地方有一個是剛剛吳上提到的政治獻金法"},{"start":177.052,"end":204.633,"text":"不過政治立法它的擬參選的定義是專門for這個就是為了政治獻金的收受而規定的所以未必能夠完全套用但在這邊並沒有針對這樣子的另外還有兩個地方一個是在公職人員選舉罷免法裡面其實自己也有這樣的字眼然後他在立法理由裡面有做擬參選人有做立法的說明放在理由欄裡面最後一個是在廣電法的實行細則我想其實很多地方都有定義我現在要表達就是說其實"},{"start":205.552,"end":233.654,"text":"人民對於這樣子沒有確定性的定義來說的話他事實上可能不曉得自己什麼時候可能誤觸法律誤觸反滲透法所以在沒有明確的規定之前其實也很容易製造寒蟬效應那另外呢我們也可以看到就是說在我們的這個有關這個委員提案增訂第八條的規定政黨若與境外敵對勢力合作為滲透行為主管機關應申請憲法法庭解散"},{"start":234.127,"end":236.156,"text":"但是內政部的報告已經都講了"},{"start":236.693,"end":261.245,"text":"政黨法第26條早已經就規定了所以呢主管機關本來就可以檢據事證申請解散在政黨法就有了那謝三世現行的法規都已經完備了那為什麼還要增訂一條重複的規定而且法務部也點出一個關鍵現在的現行法是主管機關得申請而提案版本卻改成應申請這是否會剝奪行政機關依法裁量的這個空間"},{"start":264.286,"end":284.329,"text":"那這樣跌床架屋的修法在法制上有必要嗎是 謝謝主席的垂詢我先補充剛剛的有關你參選人的定義雖然沒有但是是可以在大院審查的時候事實上是可以在裡面增訂明確的定義就有可能會符合明確性原則我先補充說明另外就剛剛委員垂詢的有關草案第八條"},{"start":285.323,"end":299.339,"text":"徵定有關申請憲法法庭宣告政黨解散的判決的部分因為在我國的憲法徵修條文以及我們的政黨法乃至於我們的憲法訴訟法其實都有就政黨宣告解散的相關的程序跟要件做規定"},{"start":300.389,"end":322.486,"text":"對 所以這樣子是不是有一個跌床加物的修法你這個辦法就已經規範了應該是說這些東西已經有明確的規範然後這次的定義當然我在猜想委員或許是提案委員或許是認為這件事情很重要有必要再與重申不過對於重申規定我們都還是會見情說其實包括這一次的修法我看很多委員還有提案所謂的灰色地帶行為人"},{"start":323.246,"end":349.523,"text":"還有有關這個相關的各種法律事實上我們看到不管是內政部或者是法務部對於很多的提案都有諸多保留的意見所以我認為行政院其實應該要負起責任就是提出院版如果行政院認為有需要的話這樣才不會讓法治混亂因為像剛剛提到有針對很多不同的法會有相關的抵觸那鑑於這樣的部分的話我們覺得在這個行政院提出院版之後呢也應該要召開公聽會然後廣邀"},{"start":351.944,"end":365.674,"text":"我們的學者專家大家一起共同來討論匯集更多的意見以求周延那另外根據法務部的統計在114年到114年涉嫌違反還有反滲透法的共有583件從111年的"},{"start":369.737,"end":389.495,"text":"分別起訴四人、十八人、九十七人跟八人目前判決有罪確定的有五人無罪的有七人其中一百一十二年平均的判決刑度是三個月一百一十四年平均判決是六個月所以換言之 超過八成以上的漢奸最終都沒有被起訴 定罪率更不到"},{"start":390.035,"end":409.482,"text":"低到不到1%那在這樣的低起訴率跟這個定罪率之下請法務部說明這500多位在選舉前夕被約談被搜索甚至被媒體公開貼上共諜滲透著標籤的這些基層的這些民眾他的程序正義跟名譽授權的問題請問要怎麼樣子來"},{"start":412.382,"end":440.818,"text":"他們要怎麼來彌補是 謝謝委員垂詢不過我這邊先跟委員報告就是說檢押機關其實沒有拒絕收案的權利在選舉期間其實各個司法警察機關所提報乃至於民眾所檢舉所告發的案子我們這邊必須要依法偵辦但所謂的偵辦並不當然說每一件都會搜索每一件都會約談其實是看個案的證據狀況以及它必要性到哪邊去其實在這樣子的最後的結果剛剛我提到這樣其實已經明確地顯示出"},{"start":441.209,"end":457.707,"text":"就是你們查的很多500多件陳安的少定罪的更少所以這是不是已經造成就是爛數還有這個變相的寒蟬效應的這個結果而且會讓人民心生畏懼剛剛一直有人提到說會有共諜會有匪諜可是事實上現在我們看到的"},{"start":458.027,"end":480.738,"text":"共諜匪諜都在執政黨的不管是總統府不管是國安局不管是這個外交部因為執政才有機密可能洩露嘛那你在這個在野黨哪有辦法去洩露機密哪有辦法去做這樣的事情所以針對這個部分我覺得針對反滲透法還要充分的討論因為不要製造人民的這個寒蟬效應"},{"start":481.755,"end":505.957,"text":"我只是去大陸旅遊可是我現在要非常擔心我回來會不會違反反滲透法這是一般人民的心聲我們也接到很多上的投訴因為我們也沒辦法去告訴他們對你這樣去不會違反反滲透法因為確實很多不明確而且沒有辦法明確界定的一個刑責所以在這邊也要請我不管是內政部或法務部在這個部分我們在針對這樣的修法應該更為嚴謹謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167062","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167062","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce04236bae2ce1a68878a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297f1150b2f0eab0c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:44:39 - 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其實我們的反滲透法它當初是根據 譬如說澳洲還有防境外勢力影響法那他們是用影響 influence"},{"start":89.198,"end":116.592,"text":"那所謂的influence它其實就不是一個譬如說我去放個炸彈或是什麼這樣子那那個是所謂在你的思想在輿論在資訊等等各方面的所謂的影響所以我們的反滲透法它並不是一個它跟一般的軍刑法還不太一樣它所界定的罪行又比較侷限這樣子"},{"start":117.732,"end":128.797,"text":"對啦 我覺得啦齁我們常說啦齁 這個工程界啊最難做的就是抓肉啦 抓肉啦那個 吳次長 你說是不是啊"},{"start":131.299,"end":147.627,"text":"謝謝委員指教 工程的品質很重要你就回答我抓肉是不是大家都很會啊對嘛滲透跟抓肉我就一樣啊慢慢一點一滴一點一滴的來啊你要去找到證據你要去找到什麼其實都是很困難的嘛但"},{"start":148.342,"end":167.563,"text":"我們現在已經看到了我們的敵對勢力透過不同各種管道來對台灣進行這種一點一滴一點一滴的滲透然後它降低了人民對政府的不信任然後也製造了一些恐懼"},{"start":168.764,"end":182.959,"text":"像他這個列台獨啊這個份子啊列到連司法界都列入了這也就是要造成台灣人民的恐懼而且剛剛大家也有在講其實啊"},{"start":185.796,"end":212.833,"text":"這個對台灣的選舉民主制度這個介入選舉其實是非常非常的嚴重你看他不用在選舉期間他無時無刻都可以去抹黑一個人用假訊息用什麼的那你說這個能不處理嗎如果你不處理長久以來對政府的不信任感對這一個人的不信任感就會存在的 對不對"},{"start":216.75,"end":239.142,"text":"那所以啊 今天啊大家在討論這個反色頭髮的部分 條文修正我認為啦 樣態很多啦那你要特別舉出一兩樣啊這個好像不大對喔 其實也是舉得出來的但 我們不能夠因為這樣 然後你不去處理我不知道兩位的看法"},{"start":244.276,"end":268.514,"text":"我覺得委員講的是非常關鍵的其實我們小時候受的教育就是要那個匪諜無孔不入其實現在是一樣的而且因為隨著網際網路隨著兩岸的交流的擴大人員來往的擴大其實所謂的匪諜無孔不入比我們小時候要嚴重更多"},{"start":269.375,"end":294.423,"text":"那所以這部法律它的目的就是要去怎麼樣去阻止這樣的這些影響去抓漏但是問題是在抓漏就是說因為很多的行為它必須要去能夠抓得到說這個行為跟對方的授意是有關係的所以現在的這個不管調查單位還是這個檢查或是法院"},{"start":295.143,"end":309.725,"text":"在這個部分他遇到都是遇到很這些困難取證上的困難但是不能夠說因為有困難所以就不做這是不行的是我只單純我請教兩位"},{"start":310.826,"end":326.579,"text":"有人在說比如說現在有一些宮廟會去中國進香那你如果單純進香你自己出錢你單純進香去到那邊有人去跟你講一些什麼話什麼你回來你沒有做這些事情你會不會有這些問題"},{"start":328.737,"end":356.917,"text":"如果你是單純跟著人家在找你去賺一個賺一個說不用錢去賺錢我的前提是出錢的喔 自己出錢的喔自己出錢的絕對不會有事不會有事嗎自己出錢的絕對不會有事不會有事嗎那我們現在比較特定的就是說人家在找人家說不用錢不用錢把你交抬譬如說10天8天但是不用錢或者是說你只要出機票錢但是到當地時數"},{"start":358.118,"end":380.678,"text":"全免 那這種就一定是有人在出因為天下沒有白吃的午餐 一定有人出錢啊這個出錢的人是誰而已啊對嘛 我的意思就是說啊就要很清楚的讓民眾知道 就不會有大家的疑慮嘛你如果是自己出錢的 不會有問題嘛你明知是備受招待的 去到那邊人家"},{"start":382.579,"end":394.403,"text":"在招待的場所裡面跟你講怎麼樣什麼台灣不好什麼你回來又替他宣傳這當然有可能你就會誤觸法令嘛這個吳次長是不是啊謝謝委員指教我想這個剛好宗教是歸內政部"},{"start":399.352,"end":414.325,"text":"我們對於台灣的一些宗教團體其實暴露的話我們都會提醒他啦就說人家要走進去要拿你出去結果他的目的是什麼還是自己要小心啊那我們也希望宗教應該是自由但不是漫無目就是說"},{"start":415.915,"end":439.256,"text":"中了人家的招啦 應該這樣講那我再請教內政部剛剛也有委員說如果這樣子接受是不是選前就不要去哪裡 我想請問一下不管是在 如果在選舉期間你接受任何的這種招待除了違反反滲透法之外你還沒有違反選罷法"},{"start":441.541,"end":460.956,"text":"我想公職人員選罷法規定選舉期間的時間其實應該要避免借選然後也避免受到對岸的一個干擾不是 只要是你選舉期間不管在國內旅遊或是出國旅遊只要你付了很少的錢"},{"start":462.477,"end":486.023,"text":"有對價關係是不是就違反選罷法都有對嘛而且應該不只選舉期間吧只要他有預備犯他只要做這些應該都要受到檢查只要影響到選舉結果的行為都要對嘛所以這是不是兩件事情兩件有關聯的事情你本來就違反選罷法了"},{"start":487.862,"end":516.852,"text":"對不對所以跟這個反滲透法你去那個去中國地方或什麼我覺得是兩件事情吧兩件獨立的事情但是又是有關聯兩件獨立有關聯那你就一次觸犯兩個法啦對不對是啊是嘛所以我覺得啦有很多樣態大家都可以討論的啦那我覺得大家好好來討論啦這個應該要把台灣的安全漏洞給補齊我認為才是重要的"},{"start":517.433,"end":517.453,"text":"好 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我先報告今天修的是反滲透法也是有關於國安相關的法令之一那根據最新的司法進度我想人民非常關心國家安全那之前社會矚目的總統府跟外交部的共諜案一審已經判決出來了那大概都是被判8年以上的重罪"},{"start":47.489,"end":63.019,"text":"那現在在高等法院二審審理所以在立法院我們也正式決議要求這個現在國安會吳秘書長應該要自行請辭因為他是跟這個案件他是主管的主管的部分"},{"start":63.559,"end":78.248,"text":"可是我們看到這個國安會發表聲明不僅指責立法院我們的認真的監督是政治操作打擊國安團隊那我們想要說的是我們是監督政府的立法機關那我們"},{"start":78.988,"end":108.288,"text":"需要真正來檢討的是真正被中共滲透 洩漏長期這又機密數年了這是我們認為的政府高層的核心那這邊我們要想要請教這個國安局作為主要的情治單位那政府的核心的內部防線沒有守住讓共諜潛藏數年那現在我們是不是來請教國安局對最近我們內部所有政府單位的機合機要人員的中層查核機制"},{"start":108.988,"end":114.335,"text":"有沒有什麼樣的機制那是不是可以請具體的改進是不是可以回答一下"},{"start":116.817,"end":117.217,"text":"法務部在嗎來 法務部參事"},{"start":148.379,"end":173.213,"text":"主席好 我又好好 謝謝 謝參事請說明針對特殊查核的部分目前有關公務人員查核分一般查核跟特別查核那一般查核就是由各機關來負責那特殊查核的部分目前雖然是由我們法務部的調查局來主責但是因為在來之前我並沒有收到這樣的訊息說要針對特定哪一個部會的特殊查核的機制是不是有什麼變化"},{"start":173.786,"end":195.383,"text":"我想這部分我這邊可能還沒有辦法仔細的那請說那請問這現在你們針對最近發生的這些案子共諜案內部發生共諜案你們有做什麼樣的精進行為不要講哪個單位整體來講你知道你們有做哪些精進行為嗎是共諜案如果有具體的個案發生檢察官有收到這樣的請辭基本上"},{"start":196.133,"end":218.334,"text":"不管在屬於二省專屬管轄的抬高檢或是各地的二省分檢其實都會立刻就會發動相關的懲查組作為那另外其實調查局也一直是國安工作裡面很重要的一個角色其實大概都有按照我國的法令然後按照目前當下的情況那按照上級的政策指示來加強來查核因為現在的時機確實是"},{"start":219.662,"end":229.071,"text":"不同 那就這部分的話是法務部作為行政團隊的議員這邊其實都有精力在做好 謝謝 我們再請國安單位的代表"},{"start":230.263,"end":256.988,"text":"所以本席在這邊還是要特別要講就是國人最擔心的這我們政府內部有這個共諜的滲入可是剛剛聽到不管是國安局或者是法務部兩邊好像沒有確實到底應該要怎麼做如何精進的一些方式好像沒有特別的一個討論出來的一個結果所以拜託你們後續再可以努力一下把一些具體的成果下次再質詢的時候可以當面說出來好嗎"},{"start":258.667,"end":277.498,"text":"是 謝謝委員知道 包括委員這個因為本局是負責情報搜集工作那相關這些狀況本局都有在滾動的更新跟加強的收集那相關案件發生之後我們也有去更新這些手法跟太陽要求各國安情報團隊來去針對這個案件的線索或情緒這樣的搜報那有關訊息我們會及時提供給相關黨委來去做徵處好 那接下來我們請司法機關"},{"start":283.179,"end":306.072,"text":"這邊我有收到一個這個檢察機關辦理涉反滲透法案件的一個統計我們可以看到這張統計表裡面當時我們都很擔心說這個反滲透法就是我們擔心的就是說對選舉有會有算計或者是針對民眾的一些生活或者對選舉會對民主有開倒車的情形我們看一下在109年反滲透法"},{"start":307.211,"end":328.972,"text":"開始以後我們的案件從統計喔我們看到齁在這個偵查的人數來看喔從110年開始是0人111年12人112年29人在昨天在去年喔總統大選的時候這個偵查的人數高達477人那不起訴的人數大概是359人這就是我們剛要特別提到"},{"start":329.532,"end":356.904,"text":"難道反滲透法就是在這個選舉期間大量的來去抓人尤其我們可以知道說這個非常多的我們一般的里長宗教團體跟旅遊團被抓那最後是證明無罪所以我們在擔心就是說反滲透法是不是在選舉期間造成人民這個巨大的心理壓力跟名譽損害然後讓社會來再造成寒蟬效應那是不是可以請司法機關解釋一下說為什麼在平常沒有選舉期間"},{"start":358.764,"end":380.334,"text":"這個偵查的人大概都不到50個人那在選舉期間偵查的人數居然高達400多個人那不起訴的人數將近八成以上所以這樣的情形會不會讓我們覺得說就是讓人家覺得是不是執政黨藉由這個反滲透法在選舉期間大幅的去抓人讓民眾有寒蟬效益 是不是可以解釋一下"},{"start":381.368,"end":397.809,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢法院審判案件基本上是針對甲官起訴的案件來做公正中立的審理那所以說就剛才委員垂詢的關於偵查這個數量的部分是不是還是請這個主管機關法務部來做回答那請法務部"},{"start":399.059,"end":420.514,"text":"那我這邊要說明一下其實這個跟我們法案滲透法的法律結構有關我們法案滲透法的條文裡面它所有的處罰條文其實裡面有很大一塊是在框公職人權運動法跟中等人權運動法裡面的所謂的選舉行為另外一個是有關刑責的再加重"},{"start":421.514,"end":437.787,"text":"這裡面就有兩條至少就有兩條是跟選舉有關那也因此為什麼在選舉期間這種案子會特別多是因為在選舉期間才會有該當於這兩條的狀況出現那另外就是在選舉期間如何是杜絕境外勢力的干涉其實是近年來選舉常常的一個重點"},{"start":438.649,"end":453.369,"text":"那也因此我們在巡查的時候我們其實是會加強力道是盡量杜絕這個境外借權的可能性也因此安園會比較多不過我們講到這邊大概處理上原來都有秉持公正以及這個本於正確的立場所以"},{"start":453.989,"end":472.81,"text":"該起訴的不該起訴的我們這邊都有做一個合理的篩選那以上來跟委員報告那是不是可以請法務部再說明一下因為我們看到被這個偵查的人有477人可是不起訴大概是359人那是不是有一些你們可不可以解釋一下說到底為什麼會那麼多人被偵查"},{"start":474.771,"end":501.916,"text":"偵查的原因到底是什麼是不是說只是去大陸旅遊啊去跟大陸做交流就被偵查那是不是所以很多人說那就是選舉前一年就不要去大陸旅遊所以才不會被偵查有這樣的說法 這坊間的說法是 謝謝委員垂詢其實針對這個狀況因為在選舉查查期間案源是多元的包括各地的有關的司法警察機關的搜報或是來自民眾的告發跟檢舉甚至有很多匿名檢舉的狀況"},{"start":503.12,"end":520.252,"text":"那以檢察機關這邊來講有案子來的話我們就會收辦那收辦之後我們會依法來偵辦那不過因為反勝鬥法立法結構裡面大概都會有一個客觀的構成要件是必須是有收境外敵對勢力的一個資助或是委託等等"},{"start":520.819,"end":536.921,"text":"所以在這段期間如果是跟中國大陸那邊有任何的交涉往來其實會有一個基本的一個嫌疑在但是這樣的嫌疑並不導致會引致後續的強力的偵辦作為或是起訴那只是一個辦案上面的一個方向"},{"start":537.742,"end":559.449,"text":"那其實這個狀況到底也不是針對所謂的到大陸旅遊就一定會變成反送中法的偵辦的當然課題不是這樣而是說在選舉查查期間事實上其實包括在國內旅遊也有可能會被標定為這是不是有招待旅遊是違反選罷法裡面相關的行為所以檢察官的偵辦方向都不會單獨是針對說因為"},{"start":561.429,"end":588.035,"text":"我們的國人有跟中國大陸方有做交流就當然設定他是我們的偵辦對象這個倒是因為是法條的結構跟選舉查查案件的本質實案好 謝謝那最後我還是想要拜託政府機關內部還是要把這個相關核心遭滲透的這個問題來解決那外部的部分也希望避免這個司法浪費那好好來保護人民這個民主的權利以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167054","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167054","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0fbcfae9b60a41f7ae6ea9f55fbd6b8757fca8e6801c49bdd3d33e1e9d2057dc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:45:43 - 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前序部還有人事行政總署"},{"start":125.183,"end":152.711,"text":"要去跟左院長報告或協調當然就考試院來講要去協調已經審定公佈施行就尤其是考試院或者是人事行政總書而言依法行政公佈生效有效的法例這個部分真的是一個需要我們好好的去溝通協調的部分"},{"start":154.022,"end":180.114,"text":"好我們看這個公務人員退休之前撫恤法的修正114年12月26號總統公佈施行這個我們卓榮泰院長也附屬了附屬表示同意對不對就附屬了然後現在情緒部的報告也說114年12月28號"},{"start":184.647,"end":208.942,"text":"公布施行之後生效生效這個考試院的報告卻因為說這個將使退府基金提前用盡意思本院難以順遂推行推行使基金永續之法定限定執掌因此本院已向憲法法庭提出釋憲及暫時處分之申請"},{"start":216.017,"end":236.984,"text":"這個如果用這樣的那個理由用這個理由因為退伏基金會提前用盡用這個理由這個理由真的是很牽強用這個理由真的是很牽強那是一個財政另外一個問題這個秘書長一直要回應"},{"start":244.14,"end":263.135,"text":"這是跟委員報告說 財政問題很嚴重 這個牽涉到後面年輕世代的權益這個部分不能因為這個理由來去釋憲好 我們再回顧 我已經講了很多次了 你也聽了很多次了"},{"start":264.824,"end":291.821,"text":"国家年金改革委员会是蔡英文总统成立的由陈建仁当时的副总统主持召开跨院跨专业专家写者开了20次的会议然后由考试院提出了公务院退休之前符系法的版本结果立法院"},{"start":293.415,"end":316.169,"text":"當時立法院民進黨記憶絕對多數對不對考試院的版本是小砍立法院把它大砍我上次沒有機會跟您說明因為那時候你已經離開了我要修正一個可能您的記憶年金改革委員會提出的版本跟考試院後來提出的版本不一樣"},{"start":318.725,"end":336.233,"text":"考試院砍得比較少年改會的決議那個社會討論二十多次還有說明會等等那個程序出來的決議是後來的應該是當時行政院提出的版本行政院提出的教育人員版本是依照那個年改會的決議"},{"start":337.173,"end":364.259,"text":"那民進黨黨團提了一個版本那民進黨還有當時還有別的國會議員還有提出各種修正版本只是我要講的是說考試院不是照年改會的決議去提版本的好不管怎麼樣啊都是砍小砍大砍而現在是停砍立法院是停砍"},{"start":365.874,"end":395.017,"text":"所以你要用這個做理由是事先的做理由真的是最主最重要的最重要的因為軍公教本來就要依法行政然後考試院行政院要帶頭不依法行政然後用這個是財政的是另外一個財政的問題就像勞保對不對還有財政的問題"},{"start":396.716,"end":404.6,"text":"也有財政的問題所以這個另外一個制度的問題好不好這個部分是一個需要審慎的一邊釋憲一邊也會依法來執行以上 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你不要浪費我的時間其實你要講的就是我們其實呢 只有增訂一條同時要處理這麼多事情但是呢 事務發布你們自己的報告你們到現在你們還在互推剛剛你也講到 主管機關請問一下 人民是要怎麼樣依照這麼樣的一條法規來遵守呢"},{"start":179.796,"end":193.987,"text":"近期的小紅書被處置而社會大眾根本不知道原因是什麼這正是我們民眾現在最擔心的地方啊我們完全不知道標準在哪裡政府只要用一句基於國安輕輕的帶過而人民的焦慮仍然是沒有辦法解決的"},{"start":200.172,"end":220.084,"text":"現在我們又有委員提案增加所謂的灰色地帶的行為的制裁陸委會你在報告中也提到尊重建立灰色地帶行為的申報機制是能夠有效補強民主防衛機制的我要請問一下梁副主委什麼叫做灰色地帶行為人"},{"start":221.425,"end":238.001,"text":"具體的定義要件是什麼 哪一些行為算 哪一些行為不算 請你簡單的說明一下譬如說你在正式參選 或是正式向監察院申報之前那你這個在有意參選 或是還在醞釀參選 還是在幫人家抬轎的這些人"},{"start":241.912,"end":261.373,"text":"這就要到灰色地帶的行為好很好 梁副主委你說到了不只是所謂灰色地帶行為你們根本都講不清楚你們這次還要把觸角伸到您參選人您知道嗎連內政部他自己的報告都承認法案裡面根本沒有您參選人的明確定義"},{"start":263.074,"end":277.12,"text":"標準長什麼樣子完全說不出來請問這樣的概念是要怎麼執行報告委員您參選人其實在查會的時候就知道因為查會的時候他不會只限於說你是參選人他在查會之前參選人之前他就會查了你回去看一下內政部的報告好不好"},{"start":288.064,"end":290.547,"text":"我們現在看起來執政黨你們根本不是在補所謂的漏洞你們是要用更模糊的罪名要擴權然後讓檢調變成政府的打手你們隨時就可以出手抓人讓人民在法院之間疲於奔命"},{"start":305.928,"end":311.052,"text":"坦白講就是要管住人民的嘴綁住人民的手逼大家閉嘴然後把整個社會推向更恐懼而政府你們一再說由於所謂的境外敵對勢力散播謠言還有不實的資訊破壞了人民對政府的信任"},{"start":326.303,"end":328.745,"text":"我真的不這麼認為而且絕大部分的台灣人民也不這麼認為我們看一下多年以來我們的政府從疫苗的購買口罩的危機雞蛋的危機到最近對等關稅的議題還有我們的軍購的延宕甚至連我們非關的防寒衣的問題"},{"start":347.253,"end":369.086,"text":"人民對我們的政府早就已經出現信任危機了啦是政府你們的施政一再的錯誤讓人民再也難以相信我們的政府了而我們的政府不在人民的生活上面需要積極的回應人民的要求你們只是一昧的以所謂的國家安全做理由來限縮人民的基本權利我想民心只會離我們的執政者越來越遠的"},{"start":375.154,"end":377.235,"text":"人民要的就是非常的簡單我要吃得飽我要穿得暖但是呢執政黨你們做不到你們一再的用所謂的亡國感來轉移焦點你們只想讓人民閉嘴我們來看一下這個數據"},{"start":391.962,"end":399.847,"text":"2026年世界不平等報告指出了台灣最富有的10%的人口掌握了全台灣61%的財富金字塔頂端的1%的超級富豪就佔了我們台灣的27%而底層的50%的民眾我們僅僅只剩下4%的財富請問一下我們政府有真正在面對這些民生問題嗎"},{"start":421.842,"end":438.255,"text":"如果我們的政府把力氣都用在處理異己然後做政治清算每一次執政不力就搬出所謂的國安危機來作為掩飾最後只會讓人民更加的不安讓民主更脆弱"},{"start":439.156,"end":447.559,"text":"我要再說一次國安不是口號民主也不是擺在檯面上的裝飾品政府應該要做的是要守護的是全體人民的權利跟生活而不是執政的方便我覺得在場的大家我剛剛以上說的那些話請大家好好的思考而不是讓我們的政府執政不力轉移焦點謝謝"},{"start":470.332,"end":470.597,"text":"谢谢"}]}},{"id":"167071","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167071","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce03048a80a8a6b02978a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297dab12b64c84673915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:06:10 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這個是這段時間我一直困擾的冒用我的信箱去威脅對於恐嚇要攻擊總統府啊 松山機場101啊我已經報案了六次 這是跨年這段時間連光國慶日那個時候還十幾次我都報案 你們也都在偵查有沒有查出來是境外嗎還在查應該 這個警察署會比較了解好 趕快辦 因為都是用簡體字的下一頁"},{"start":272.111,"end":299.393,"text":"這就是國慶日的那一波好我要用這個是說如果用言論只是在鼓吹暴力用暴力的威脅我們都要神之以法我都需要報案那麼危及國家安全的用言論來支持武統支持中國犯台這當然也不是言論自由所允許的嘛對不對下一頁檢察總長也已經說了立法規範"},{"start":301.167,"end":325.603,"text":"對於對敵效忠的還有要檢討法規的灰色地帶以及言論自由非沒有底線在台設統戰的言論都將受罰如果鼓吹犯罪都要吳斯堯要一個案一個案去提告我不縱容這些暴力那當然對於要對台灣武統的這些暴力也完全是零容忍的不要雙標所以我們的手法非常的一致喔夏業"},{"start":326.687,"end":347.294,"text":"我今天有機會在內政委員會就教於各位因為我們上週在司法法治委員會針對陸海控軍刑法24條修正的時候要加重降低罪責於法院那一天我沒有機會問到梁文傑副主委我基本上都支持我們要提高不盡其責降低罪的刑責這些都該做"},{"start":348.535,"end":362.694,"text":"那天在野黨委員有一些非常荒誕的比喻啊因為法條的內容是說以言論舉動文字圖畫電磁記錄科技方法或其他方式對敵人效忠的表示我們增加了這一項"},{"start":364.44,"end":391.831,"text":"在野黨委員一直說這非常抽象這樣子文字非常抽象會是文字獄但是如同我剛剛說的如果對於這種暴力言論攻擊公共設施都要嚴正以待去繩之以法那為什麼對於國安的相關的內容尤其降敵或者是拍影片替對方宣傳這些在野黨的委員認為可以放手呢"},{"start":393.905,"end":414.185,"text":"那我就教於副主委喔軍人的忠誠義務是大法官釋字430號非常清楚的闡釋而現行軍人的忠誠義務若被違反只能夠用貪污治罪條例的違背職務收賄罪來處理所以這法制要補強下一頁這就是非常有名的這個"},{"start":416.266,"end":439.701,"text":"陸軍的上校向德恩遭中國吸收開始收賄2019年開始而且簽署了投降承諾書這是非常具體的一點都不抽象但是我們只能用貪污治罪條例的收賄罪去起訴他下一頁而這些搭配中國來拍攝願意投降解放軍的照片的這些人也只能夠用收賄罪來起訴"},{"start":441.182,"end":468.123,"text":"所以說副主委你在這裡可以清楚的告訴我們雖然這不是今天在內政委員會的主題但是陸海空軍刑法也是一整包的國安法案你可不可以說明一下陸委會的主張陸委會的主張很清楚就是這些凡是這些漏洞我們都應該補起來你特別是我講更具體的像這個向德恩的案子你看到的只是表面的一個但是你每抓到一個後面就一定有一串"},{"start":469.304,"end":495.157,"text":"那前兩天還有南部南部也有南部軍團也有一個同樣的同樣的案例同樣也是被檢方起訴我想國安局在這邊很清楚就是說類似這種拍影片向中共宣誓效忠然後說一旦戰爭的時候我不抵抗甚至我要這個倒戈相向的類類這樣的具體的案例在軍中其實現在是一個危機"},{"start":496.258,"end":524.174,"text":"所以我們這個修這個刑法其實是完全是有具體對應的案件要處理的而不是隨便處理 而不是隨便修一修的這樣子好 謝謝副主委喔所以因應其實這些行為都是現在進行式就像你講 抓到一個後面都是一瓦啦一粒肉贓頭後面都是幾瓦啦我們如果不趕快補強了國安法之路漏洞陸海空軍刑法"},{"start":524.654,"end":538.806,"text":"具體的增加降敵的這些作為我認為我們真的很難很難向中國這些滲透的行為來宣戰所以今天在場內政委員會有非常多的部會都是國安法案的主責的部會"},{"start":539.505,"end":561.963,"text":"我們就是堅持為國家的國安我們拼上最後一塊的國安拼圖其實不是一塊 好多塊的國安拼圖大家一起努力我在司法法治委員會我們在相關的法案 陸海扣除刑法或是未來的軍事審判的制度我們也會全力的跟大家一起合作加油 辛苦了 謝謝欸 梁文傑沒有拿水杯上台"}]}},{"id":"167070","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167070","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0baacbc6e4e7a590e8a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297dab12b64c84673915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:59:34 - 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目前都沒有所以就是說因為我覺得對中國來講就是說呢交流這件事情他可以去運用這些交流形成統戰的這個結果像之前我們就常發生這種體育的交流體育的交流對國人來講聽起來很正常啊去打打棒球啊去玩玩扯鈴啊聽起來好像沒有什麼但是後來我們才發現後面好幾個共諜案"},{"start":198.18,"end":215,"text":"他竟然就是從比如說扯鈴的交流開始他在趁這個交流的時候呢去吸收我們的扯鈴的教練然後再藉由去滲透我們的軍方然後取得我們軍事的機密那他從頭到尾原來在一開始在辦那一個扯鈴相關的活動的時候目標竟然就是要滲透我們的這個扯鈴教練"},{"start":217.202,"end":238.112,"text":"所以就是說我們會認為是正常的交流對他來講不正常所以如果我們事先沒有辦法防範事先沒有辦法知道這些交流的內容他見了誰有沒有可能簽了什麼東西的話這個對我們來講一定會有規範不足的問題所以現在能不能夠把這個揭露做得更好我覺得這是應該未來蠻重要的一個目標"},{"start":238.872,"end":258.71,"text":"我們這陣子國安法其實修法已經開始慢慢在推動了那今天也有很多反滲透法的這個修法那這個修法大部分還是比如說他去參與了這個統戰的活動我們可能應該要怎麼規範國安法裡面他除了發展以外他如果去參與組織的話我們應該要怎麼規範他大部分還是就是他都已經做了做完之後我們說這個不行這個要被處罰"},{"start":260.692,"end":282.611,"text":"但如果能夠在他做之前我們就知道這個有風險這也是陸委會一直以來在做的事情國人復入的時候去警告他說你可能會有這個風險你什麼事可以做什麼事不能做但我知道第一個就是我們目前的法規範不可能叫每一個人來中國然後到來跟陸委會報備這是非常困難的事情第二個就是陸委會的量能可能會不夠"},{"start":283.551,"end":300.823,"text":"這可能是需要增加預算但是我們目前的這一個預算審查的方式很難讓陸委會有更多的預算來做這件事情但它還是一個大目標所以呢今天藉由反社交法的修法我覺得要討論這個內容我看大家意見當然可能會各自不同對於這個處罰的這個高低壓比例原則啊什麼等等之類的"},{"start":301.383,"end":327.902,"text":"但我想要提醒的就是這個完了以後往下一步我們應該要有更多的這個揭露制度那因此如果陸委會開始要做這些相關的要來申報然後你要檢查然後事後還要看他到底揭露的內容到底是對還是錯到底跟事實符不符合那個量能是要提高的量能如果要提高需要多少的人員然後需要多少的預算我們再往下一次下一個年度的時候希望陸委會能夠也把這件事情考慮進去是 謝謝委員"},{"start":330.243,"end":354.558,"text":"跟委員報告一下現在我們的特定的身份人員或公務員如果要經過聯審會的話那基本上他去大陸的話我們是要審查您所提到的資料那我們這次陸委會提的兩岸條例的修正草案裡面第九條裡面針對民選公職人員的附錄我們也訂定了公開介入的一些規定希望委員能夠支持"},{"start":355.738,"end":383.013,"text":"對沒問題 這個也是我被擋了非常久的一個法案之一那我知道有一些變成是他今天要如果要報的話有一些他不是屬於剛剛要到連審會他可能要跟原機關但是跟原機關那個原機關在認定的標準是什麼這可能也很需要陸委會提供標準雖然的話那個原機關可能他完全不知道自己應該要做什麼事情那就變成說他的法律空在那邊雖然還沒過啦但是如果過的話他到底要審查什麼他要準備什麼資料這可能也是需要你們提供標準陸委會會來協助各機關"},{"start":384.594,"end":385.839,"text":"沒問題 那就我先問到這邊謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167069","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167069","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0b52f217d3013b01a8a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297dab12b64c84673915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:42:37 - 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這個法務部有請加法務部參事好 這個早安啦"},{"start":23.974,"end":46.75,"text":"我們今天召委排定反滲透法的相關的詢答當然是因為很多民進黨委員有提案就是說反滲透法目前沒有辦法填補所謂的國安漏洞所以大部分提了很多不管是國安法庭的設置也好或者是加重罰則等等的一些方向希望透過修法來提高國安防護的一個等級"},{"start":48.807,"end":73.108,"text":"問題是這樣子的齁 這個去年3月 賴清德總統其實就召開了記者會講說有所謂的五大統戰威脅還有賴17條 17條因應策略其中就有國安法 上禮拜討論的反滲透法 兩岸人民關係條例等等的一些修正案那行政院從去年3月到今天大概8 9個月 快一年了嘛快一年了 10個月了齁 那"},{"start":73.829,"end":95.638,"text":"國安法上禮拜當然是因為有願版所以重新進行了詢答的程序那後面還要再召開所謂的公聽會那我今天看今天排反滲透法的相關的一個質詢但是看起來還是都只有民進黨委員提案的相關的一個版本而我看了一下各部會提出的這個書面報告很多對於委員提案的版本大概也都有一些不同的意見"},{"start":96.638,"end":105.763,"text":"說要漸行再酌或者是說並不一定有立法這樣子的一個必要那我想請教一下這個行政院版會推反滲透法嗎"},{"start":108.595,"end":129.195,"text":"好 謝謝委員 垂詢因為反省政法本身它是屬於行政院的法規不是法務部管的法規不過法務部身為行政團隊的議員那如果行政院這邊有希望我們這邊來做協助研議或者是說我們這邊本與志全發現有什麼條件需要建議的話"},{"start":131.616,"end":154.407,"text":"應該會有相關啟動研議的作為但是因為目前還沒有收到行政院明確的指示所以我們目前是還沒有具體的條文出來好 這到底哪一個單位來如果要有院版的話是由哪一個單位來處理的國安局嗎 還是內政部 還是陸委會三個一起上來好了你們討論一下會不會有院版好不好我們要聽具體的答案好 副主委有請"},{"start":163.168,"end":189.931,"text":"我想經過今天的討論之後各位委員的所有的提案我們都會帶回去包括不管在野黨還是執政黨的立委的意見那我想執政團隊應該會有一個方案出來好 內政部呢大概都一樣啦因為這個反省團內容其實很多部會啦我想這個當然如果願有指示我們都會來配合來 國安局"},{"start":191.605,"end":217.801,"text":"法委員如果有需要本局提供相關資源或意見我們也會請你協助好 謝謝問題就是這樣這些法案其實在我印象中第一會期就已經進來了也就是說各委員的 民進黨委員提案的版本就已經進來了那其實去年3月總統開記者會然後一直到現在今天各單位的回答還是說如果願有指示我們來做一下調整今天會帶回去研議等等"},{"start":218.241,"end":242.342,"text":"那這樣其實啊 就 問題就來了嘛到時候會不會今天詢答都答完了之後到時候又跑出一個願板然後大家又要重新進行程序這我們希望大家審慎一點前期的溝通 既然要做總統都有指示了 就仔細一點來做啦來副主委還有話要補充嗎就是各位委員今天講的各種意見我們都會拿回去參考所以請各位委員今天多多指教"},{"start":243.363,"end":257.423,"text":"就是說就內容的部分 多多給我們意見好不好 謝謝對啊 因為看起來默契有一點點不太好啦 我提醒一下要修當然是可以 要討論當然大家就健康的來討論 好不好好 那我們來針對法案的內容 我們來再做一下做一些想法 這個"},{"start":259.165,"end":278.537,"text":"因為你現在問題是這樣 因為現在沒有行政院同一個版本所以每一條每一條要細問 時間也不夠用啦那我就直接講這個東西過去被大家詬病的地方其實就在於就是說你很難真的去變成定罪上的困難嘛包含剛剛副主委都講說起訴但判決無罪不代表真的無罪 欸這還蠻誇張的"},{"start":280.612,"end":296.988,"text":"我當然知道你的意思是要強調定罪上的困難但法律明確性等等相關的保障他也是要兼顧的我想大家是很清楚的那關鍵就是在說你很難證明什麼叫被滲透嘛對不對以實務上來講大家去講說比如說中國大陸啊最常被大家拿來講所謂的滲透啊"},{"start":298.69,"end":325.901,"text":"就是實務上 比如說中國大陸啊 透過台商啊給予政治獻金 找到政治人物就聽差辦事這就聽起來言之成理但那其實非常去脈絡化的一種說法為什麼這樣說呢因為這樣說那很多人恐怕都要被辦啊 對不對比如說這個我們有紅孩兒事件 對不對這個即便大政黨不同 講法不一樣可是有沒有在中國大陸有經商的事實恐怕是有的 對不對那這樣經商的事實有沒有成為選舉的支持"},{"start":326.704,"end":331.671,"text":"你很難證明有可能有有可能沒有所以到最後都鬼打架不管是哪一黨哪一派"},{"start":332.662,"end":361.228,"text":"就到底有滲透沒滲透通通講不清楚這也是為什麼我們今天在談反滲透法修正的時候之所以不管是國安法、反滲透法、良人民關係條約大家都強調明確性原則的原因就在這個地方因為你一不小心就會跨過自由的紅線嘛造成的壓迫我們如果給予行政機關太大的裁量空間對不對讓梁副主委變成法官這樣子不太行啦 對不對給予太大的裁量空間反而是對於司法公信力的再一次的打擊啦"},{"start":362.148,"end":387.443,"text":"所以即便我看了一下今天大部分的修法都說我要有國安法庭我要加重罰則我要怎麼樣來做處理可是問題是都沒有觸及到這個法案核心的問題也就是你到底要怎麼去界定這件事情嘛那到了最後很有可能你修完之後還是因為無法界定而無法定罪那修了等於白修或者是說你因為界定的時候觸犯了政治的紅線他遭到很多困難這就是為什麼我今天一定要提說如果要審這個法案一定要有院版"},{"start":388.143,"end":413.426,"text":"一定要一個明確的基準如果各委員有各行其事利益都良善本席願意相信這不同黨派都沒有關係但是核心的問題沒有辦法被解決也沒有統一版本來做討論的時候恐怕會有一些困難這是本席要做的第一個提醒第二個是有關於這個國安法庭我想要問一下好了 梁副主委內政部應該可以回了但是這個法務部跟司法院好不好國安局可以回法務部跟司法院我要問一下國安法庭的部分"},{"start":415.37,"end":443.283,"text":"這個是這部法案目前有的版本裡面比較敏感的地方啦好 大家都覺得說 ㄟ 一樣啊 這聽起來喔 對啊 國安相關的案件交給國安相關素養的法官來判對 一樣言之成理 但它同樣有實務上操作的問題我想請教一下法務部跟司法院現在民進黨委員在提案說明等等都有講就是說 你現在違反國安法相關法案的這個犯罪最後都輕判了事你們同意都是輕判了事這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":447.53,"end":467.707,"text":"謝謝委員催詢那我這邊先檢驗回來後面可能要請司法院先生補充首先就草案的第11條之一的立法理由裡面有提到刑度的分析那這個是應該是根據本部在網路上有公開的相關的統計數據那這個當然是客觀的不過因為我這邊要補充說明的是"},{"start":468.528,"end":494.608,"text":"這個客觀數據的解讀你必須要放在它是一個新的法所以它起訴也都是在最近這幾年很多案子其實還沒有確定都還在路上所以裡面包括了剛剛有委員提到的桃園的某民眾被起訴的案子以及南部也有好幾件其實都是重判的刑度事實上現在是上訴在最高法院之中這邊可能就這個數據的部分"},{"start":496.209,"end":516.942,"text":"要補充說明 因為還沒確定 所以沒有納入統計所以其實也沒有都輕判嘛 對不對最近幾個 比如說共諜的案子其實也都有用國安法 七年八年以上對不對是有區分情節的 是有區分情節的嘛 好那現在民進黨委員也擔心啦 我想也是善意提醒啦就是說現在刑事法官恐怕缺乏國安相關知識"},{"start":517.996,"end":529.108,"text":"這樣子的一個 我姑且講提醒 你們認嗎你們覺得現在的法官 司法院也好 法務部也好從你們的角度 現行的法官缺乏相關 國安的相關知識嗎這是司法院回答 法官嘛 對不對謝謝委員崔群"},{"start":532.216,"end":548.272,"text":"那办理国安军事案件的法官其实现在都已经有专庭或专股的办理而且每年至少从109年到去年每年都有国安研习会的专业课程的培训"},{"start":548.892,"end":574.082,"text":"那甚至去年114年還一年有兩次的這個研習會的培訓分別是實務界跟學術界都有相關的這個教育課程所以法官基本上都已經具有相關的這個專業了而且一年至少有12個小時的這個訓練課程還有剛剛委員所問到是不是都有輕判那本院當然就尊重法官的這個審判權的行使"},{"start":575.441,"end":593.159,"text":"那就譬如說在去年114年來說地方法院反滲透法有三人都是判到超過六個月的刑度甚至高等法院有一人判到超過兩年的刑度所以未必都是所謂的輕判的狀況以上就簡單回覆委員 謝謝"},{"start":597.984,"end":627.28,"text":"好 所以你剛剛我簡單講就針對國安法庭這一部分其實你們已經有專股跟專門的訓練也有在辦課程嘛 對不對是的啊所以我想如果單純只是哪怕只是題點的角度你講說缺乏國安知識的專業訓練我覺得好像對司法院也有一點不公平好 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召委一位同仁請我們國安局我們的陳副處長還有我們內政部的副處長好 兩位處長針對因為網路的詐騙包含手機高度的普及今天我們修了反滲透法的部分條文的修正草案"},{"start":27.694,"end":57.362,"text":"那民眾大家都知道以前過去我們曾經修過但是已經時空背景都不一樣已經也過了五六年那現在是AI的時代也高科技的時代那現在的詐騙的手腕都是非常的先進你像在是Meta的詐騙在我們網路上大家都可以看得出來那未來我們對我們國家的安全性"},{"start":58.318,"end":79.334,"text":"我們要怎樣去做防範現在是整個防範的系統要怎樣來賀值畢竟現在在11月就大選了那地方選舉會不會又過成境外勢力的介入這是本席比較關心的那是不是請我們"},{"start":82.836,"end":91.667,"text":"國安局來看你們掌握到的Meta他們那個詐騙的數量有多少有沒有赫茲有沒有逐年的下降"},{"start":93.072,"end":115.178,"text":"是 跟委員報告這個針對這個委員所關心今年關於選舉的狀況本局這個會有相關的專案來因應那網路上流傳這些徵印訊息因為我們比較關注徵印訊息影響國家安全的部分像我們去年2025年我們就掌握了231萬余者的徵印訊息那也有發現231萬余者的對 認知作戰徵印訊息那我們也掌握了4萬5千多筆的這個假帳號"},{"start":118.499,"end":145.33,"text":"那相關當 相關的狀況我們也有循我們的專案機制通報相關機關來做查處那也有請相關的社群平台業者來做下架動作那委員所關心可能涉及到年底選舉的部分我們本局會持續協同各國安情報團隊來加強掌握這部分狀況來及時應處李昌鮑跟委員說明但是我我們國安局我聽你所講我們就是有查獲但是你要喝止你有沒有懲處"},{"start":147.891,"end":162.262,"text":"只不過是下架而已那這樣 報告員如果涉及到這個惡假害我們也會請我們司法警察機關比如說調查局或刑事局來去針對這個來去做依法的追訴跟查查"},{"start":163.854,"end":193.241,"text":"因為我們最主要是要怎樣來嚇阻因為Meta的數量是太過驚人這對我們整個國家的安全對百姓的詐騙都是一種非常嚴重的傷害這是我們本身我們公務單位就是要積極的去嚇阻這種事情的發生這是我們現在都比較積極的來做的所以今天修律法 申託法的部分條文修正案"},{"start":193.821,"end":221.222,"text":"本席是非常的認同這是對我們未來整個國家的安全性我們還是要秉持的趕快去讓我們民眾的傷害降到最低這是我們應該要做的好那我請我們內政部針對我們未來的選舉這個網路的信息不正確的信息我們要怎樣來做處理"},{"start":224.687,"end":252.197,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教我想那個選舉期間的時候因為如果是公職人員選罷就依照公職選罷的相關規定如果一旦有這種網路或是AI 聲委等等的那目前來講的話我們都是說只要是警察機關我們這邊去依照他的鑑識結果我們會要求業者在兩天內就要下架然後限制瀏覽跟移除那另外就是說也跟委員報告"},{"start":253.237,"end":259.534,"text":"像这种的话我们不管在总统选办法或者是公职人员选办法其实都有谈到有散播播放"},{"start":260.458,"end":287.297,"text":"然後讓候選人因為譬如說身為影像等等而犯選舉誹謗那這個是照規定是七年以下的徒刑而且還可以如果是意圖盈利還可以加重其二分之一那我想在這個部分其實我們目前包括公民的素養我們這邊也都是有來透過希望有教育跟宣導來讓民眾有思辨能力那也把這個相關的法令規定都會跟大家講那我想剛談到像這種"},{"start":290.303,"end":298.295,"text":"選舉然後藉由網路的那這個部分其實我們警察機關就是剛剛國安局有談到我們相關的部會其實都有在共同來做一個追蹤跟處理"},{"start":299.261,"end":319.997,"text":"好的 因為現在已經是AI時代你早期五六年前那時候反滲透法的條文 修正條文那時候AI還不是那麼盛行那現在這幾年是AI的竄起那以後我們AI的辨識這應該是重中之重是 好 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陽泉發言 邀請部長請顧部長"},{"start":12.08,"end":38.556,"text":"是 部長好我們來討論一個關鍵彈藥數量足夠嗎的這個問題那近年來許多的軍事衝突我們都很清楚一個事實戰爭的勝負它不是只有單一因子它不只是取決於武器先進與否而且是在能不能在高消耗的這個情境上面你可以持續的去補充彈藥維持這個戰力"},{"start":40.937,"end":54.153,"text":"那現在我們戰爭當中 我們很清楚看到彈藥消耗的速度往往比超平常的時候 它速度需求更大 對不對所以特別是在防空飛彈"},{"start":56.281,"end":77.258,"text":"這個精準導引彈藥以及火炮彈藥跟無人系統相關的這個耗材那一旦如果進入到暫時的高度交鋒的時候如果補給鏈去中斷庫存不足那即使擁有有先進的武器也可能在短時間之內喪失了這個有效的戰力對不對 部長是"},{"start":82.122,"end":84.788,"text":"那市的情況之下我們要先來討論國內我們的生產量能可以嗎"},{"start":95.108,"end":110.405,"text":"我們現在應該有分說國內可以產製但是可能現有產能不足或者是國內沒有產能需要外國獲得國內產製可以的我們到底我們的量能有沒有照我們原先所規劃的這個量能可以產出"},{"start":113.425,"end":132.932,"text":"所以如果以輕兵器的這些彈藥我想是不是軍備局說明一下好 軍備局請做說明跟委員說明我們205的輕兵器就是在今年的3月我們有用中科院的那個委協書做了FM的你講的是5.56公里的這個鋼筋嗎90公里跟50機槍我們都會今年都會恢復量產"},{"start":140.575,"end":159.212,"text":"恢復量產為什麼呢因為應該是繳成是比您所剛剛一直委員詢問的你預計在今年的三月份你的這個產線可以再去量產那但是如果依照我們原先的規劃應該是往前推嘛是不是對產線是不是來"},{"start":164.315,"end":182.533,"text":"產線的擴張 我假如是按照剛剛馬遠的執行過了我舊產線兩條 新產線有四條那我只要再增加了底火我也有編了特別預算我的底火我再擴一條線那在高耗的情況之下我們評估是可以滿足我們的需求的"},{"start":183.113,"end":194.385,"text":"評估是可以滿足我們的需求所以依照目前你所說的3月份的這個部分是可以5.56的這個鋼琴的部分你是可以滿足這個需求而且擴限滿足這個需求同時也是在3月份可以去呈現 是不是"},{"start":205.004,"end":209.728,"text":"3月份就可以量產了3月份就對啊就是可以呈現嘛可以量產呈現是不是部長這個在這邊啊因為國人都非常的關心剛剛特別跟你討論的這個部分也就是我們也生怕如果到時候斷鏈的時候要怎麼辦"},{"start":221.917,"end":223.738,"text":"那我們支持我們的這個MIT這是全國全力的支持所以剛剛軍備局局長所做的報告是在3月份可以量產出來你所增加的這個產線"},{"start":238.046,"end":260.838,"text":"剛剛提到的5.56的那個部分是3月然後其他的部分到9月那這是清兵器的部分那我們其實還有還有飛彈的部分然後還有無人機的部分那請說明一下因為國人非常的關心8月的部分是什麼呢讓國人放心也知道我們MIT是可以的是不是請中科院說明一下"},{"start":262.118,"end":284.003,"text":"8月份的時候 請說說明 我們可以量產出什麼樣的產品飛彈的部分是由中科院來負責生產 跟委員報告大概一個數量就是從111年海空戰力提升特別預算一直執行到現在我們的飛彈產能增加了2.63倍這是整個精準飛彈的部分"},{"start":285.481,"end":309.885,"text":"其實我們的飛彈設定並不是像委員講的就是說我們是以平時訓練或是概括數字作為規劃的現在請你說明清楚在敵人渡海作戰的時候我們以台灣海峽為一個天線的話在敵人渡海作戰的時候我們要把他的登陸部隊消耗到50%以上作為我們一個庫儲的標的和目標所以在剛剛你所說明的當中這個是可以達到的"},{"start":310.782,"end":328.318,"text":"目前我們的庫儲標的是以這個作為目標以這個作為目標 讓國人清楚 請大家放心但是你沒回答本席剛剛所說的剛剛部長說的在八月份的時候哪一個 軍備局請你做說明 剛剛委員回報九月份是7.6那到底是八月份還是九月份 九月份因為剛剛部長是說八月份我說九月 部長說九月 你說八月沒關係 就是我們要聽清楚這個就是我們 應該是我講錯"},{"start":336.745,"end":345.39,"text":"9月份恢復7.6290公里手槍彈7.62的那個部機槍彈還有武林機槍彈都是在9月份可以量產好那部長剛剛我們所做的5分鐘的討論很清楚的我們不是以平常訓練的這個概括數字來定奪是不是"},{"start":360.441,"end":363.122,"text":"對 我們現在要提高我們的戰備存量是 一定要讓國人 他就放心第二個 也就是MIT的部分我們國人 我相信不分藍綠白的委員絕對會全力的支持 是不是對 像剛剛我提到的剛剛除了清兵器彈藥 飛彈"},{"start":378.749,"end":406.034,"text":"那我們還有一個像無人機所以我們無人機無人機誰負責是會說明一下因為這個現在大家都很關心它的耗材量也非常的大無人機現在就是我們要把這個量能給開出來國防部作為最大的需求者所以就是要在115年 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沒關係啦可能他老婆老公一年都給他一萬塊都沒問題嘛所以川普總統這一千塊"},{"start":153.576,"end":170.942,"text":"對於一個六四家庭連欠錢都有困難只有他有一個一千塊派對後面的老闆老婦有辦法每年欠錢嗎這不知道對於後面的人來說你沒有發一千塊川普你沒有發一千塊我也是每天每年都給你放一萬塊美金對不對一千塊對於一萬塊來說未來十八年人家十八萬人家一千塊所以川普這個政策看起來是對"},{"start":178.564,"end":198.141,"text":"普通的美国人的家庭尤其是没有厨师的家庭有个高的厨师嘛你知不知道现在在野党的版本是什么 往下看蓝白的未来账户是年给12年我看到一下嘛 他的第六条试用对象只要出生未满12岁是不是免年给啊"},{"start":199.517,"end":216.895,"text":"他們是 他的版本是說每年都還要加一萬進去每年還要再加一萬喔有沒有要求他們的父母要加沒有嘛 對所以說白色的午餐最香嘛那建物開請就好了嘛這當然要是我是弱勢家庭我也歡迎啦但是有個問題"},{"start":218.476,"end":225.663,"text":"你們有沒有算過 你們算過嗎 差不多隆重要開多少報告委員 我們這樣算算的 可能第一年就要開多少這樣總共的方案4030啦 4000控30億第一年就要開多少 隆重12年 隆重要開4000多億4000億 12年4000億 看起來跟"},{"start":241.798,"end":269.725,"text":"在野黨堅持的年改增加的國家負債好像又是一筆反年改倒退的一個負擔耶今天我是主計總署他們就不用了我們都知道這個錢國家的錢那有人說這個會不會排擠到現在預算我很懷疑未來12年國家總共要支付4000多億跟我們的年金改革未來10年未來每年要付3600億哇 這筆錢很大有人覺得中華民國國庫很有錢繼續花來往下看"},{"start":270.796,"end":291.719,"text":"好 那民眾怎麼看呢民眾認為說 這個投票的結果多數的民眾 6成5是反對有部分民眾是保留 他說金額要小不能亂花錢有條件贊成只應照顧弱勢請問你覺得這兩點你支不支持金額要小不要亂花錢有條件贊成限於弱勢家庭"},{"start":293.959,"end":320.824,"text":"反對的我們不講啦 有人都反對說政府亂花錢啊資源有限啊 財政負擔啊 政策好聽啊 效果有限啊對於沒有小孩或小孩長大下來不公平啊 這就不看了對於說金額要適度要照顧弱勢家庭 你支持嗎包委員 這個其實也是卓院長在元旦他有一個政策說明其中有很重要的事實上就是要擴大我們現在目前但是要弱勢優先弱勢優先 好 那我們現在看啦"},{"start":321.784,"end":345.754,"text":"所以說我們覺得在野黨在幫助有錢人的世代財富傳承你看看根據這個第12條跟13條未來中的特別條例他這個開戶是在怎樣開戶人或他的法定代理人最近親屬他要存好啦其實富裕家庭的人他本來就會存如果是弱智家庭的可能沒有辦法存所以如果"},{"start":346.584,"end":372.523,"text":"弱勢家庭的都只是靠政府存他的福利效果有限有錢家庭的他利上加利等於是政府幫他住很大的一臂之力這樣子在我們的國家的一個社會公平正義來講這會不會是一種所得的逆分配啊包圍這可能複製現有的這個階級的還有家庭複製現有的階級差異因為等於是什麼呢我們看來下一張等於是窮人家"},{"start":373.644,"end":385.808,"text":"今日的麵包成為富二代的未來金幣啊我們把這第一年的一千多億未來的十一年還加上三千多億這些都是用當年度政府的預算納稅人繳的稅嘛沒錯"},{"start":388.062,"end":408.735,"text":"納稅人我知道目前有56%的人要繳薪資所得稅其他的人44%所得未達這個程度那現在這些沒有繳稅的經濟能力未達繳稅額度的是不是就是我們衛務部你們要去關注的對象要把大家繳來的錢有能力繳稅的56%的人他繳了稅"},{"start":411.216,"end":435.502,"text":"讓我們政府來照顧這沒有能力角色的44%這是衛福部的事情沒錯 所以我們市部長說資源要用在刀口上是 好但是如果我們現在為了這個未來帳戶12年拿了4000億每年等於是你第一年1000億 每年要拿300億出來預算要編在哪裡編在衛福部名下衛福部有辦法漲出每年多300億嗎"},{"start":438.303,"end":461.234,"text":"還是說我們的錢還是從納稅人的錢來所以納稅人繳來的錢本來叫衛福部要照顧弱勢的現在在幫誰的忙幫那些富家庭的二代放他18歲以後的明日金幣啊對沒錯我先問一下你知道目前因為我在財政委員會今天實戰聯席啊我們都知道保險業者最喜歡做什麼業務"},{"start":462.645,"end":479.26,"text":"高資產客戶用保單來做什麼財富傳承因為保險的受益人保險的保費繳那麼多高額保費受益人當被保險人頑固的時候受益人他的那個保險的幾戶要不要課稅"},{"start":481.499,"end":510.411,"text":"不用課稅不用課稅那現在你這樣的一個版本就當於有錢家庭的人他放到這個帳戶的錢未來他小孩用的時候要不要課稅這個不知道啦那宋署長一點點時間趕快你講一下這樣到底有沒有對富家庭來講節稅的效果我要是買保單傳承財富我可以免於被課稅那這個呢這個衛福部的麵包牛奶貧困家庭的這個錢拿來給藍白板的未來家庭"},{"start":510.971,"end":539.153,"text":"他們父母啊 你每年存那麼多我存十倍下去存在帳戶的錢未來可以不用繳稅嗎如果他已經存到小孩的帳戶就變成小孩的錢了那要怎麼所以未來小孩體靈本金的部分沒有稅的問題當他產生的知習是有稅的問題來 目前如果我們有錢家庭在場的有錢家庭像財富傳承財政部一年給多少的這樣的一個證語或者是幫小孩子存錢的利息的這個租稅優惠"},{"start":541.007,"end":558.015,"text":"如果是正宇的話每年是244萬以現在的額度244萬我每年要想辦法挪244萬給我兒子在他未成年之前我想都有困難那這244萬是不用稅啦是不用課金一歲好 所以來 部長請你上台啦"},{"start":559.478,"end":572.587,"text":"總究你要來做個Ending我請了次長 請了署長那請問一下那麼川普的賬戶給其他國家一個參考有沒有其他國家曾經做過類似的事情"},{"start":573.949,"end":590.024,"text":"据了解的话在英国也做过类似更早做过英国做过类似更早那英国有继续做吗没有了没有没有办法在财务上永续没有办法在财务上永续所以我们规节我们对于"},{"start":591.385,"end":612.007,"text":"仿造川普帳戶這樣的一個操作業到台灣之後變成是一個每年都要給父母也不見得要給然後造成的是一個逆所得的逆分配造成還是國家的財政負擔還造成了會排擠到衛福部其他照顧弱勢家庭你們現在有在照顧弱勢家庭的類似這樣的政策嗎"},{"start":612.708,"end":629.177,"text":"有多少人受益这个受益目标是应该6万人左右目前有多少万人目前是近4万3万9千多人很好所以如果我们要照顾这些弱势家庭的孩子目标6万我们的卫护部一年要放多少钱进去"},{"start":630.633,"end":655.534,"text":"因為這個目前開戶的最高我們一年對波是一萬五所以目前的預算投入大概多少了幾億啊 一萬五大概簡單講 已經投入都好了六億左右投了六億了對 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我想請問一下金管會有沒有看過國民黨跟民眾黨共提的台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案你們有實際看過嗎那是不是可以麻煩你說說看我們提的台灣未來帳戶的特別條例草案跟你們拿出來偷換的TISA的這個部分在政策上有什麼不同的地方大概"},{"start":53.533,"end":76.725,"text":"委員的版本是要委託那個勞金局勞動部這邊來金管這個帳戶那金管會的部分是就我們目前已經推動的TESA的這個帳戶有個投資帳戶的一個運作情形如果未來這個帳戶這個兒少帳戶你們的這個版本有沒有放一塊錢政府有沒有替孩子存一塊錢在裡面"},{"start":78.111,"end":104.381,"text":"因為應該是說前端有這個帳戶出來以後是不是要結合投資那如果在結合投資的時候這樣怎麼可以拿出來跟未來帳戶對比呢我們沒有說要跟未來帳戶對比可是我們總統拿這個來回應不是嗎應該是說我們TESA帳戶是未來如果這個帳戶要做相關的投資的話是不是可以運用我們TESA帳戶做一個協助"},{"start":105.194,"end":114.392,"text":"所以你們也是希望用這個來替代嗎應該是說我們配合整個國家的政策看是有沒有需要金管會這個TESA賬戶來協助的部分"},{"start":114.898,"end":137.555,"text":"因為我看到這個結論就是我們目前政府是選擇不由國家來投資下一代而是把風險跟責任又把它留給我們年輕的家庭讓他自己承擔對不對應該是說政策上是怎麼樣讓這個帳戶成立後端要不要結合投資這樣子但是政策應該還是由我先請我們時務長來一下請時務長"},{"start":145.141,"end":152.37,"text":"第一個問題我想請教就剛剛一樣的問題就是你們有看過我們國民黨跟民眾黨提的特別條例的草案嗎"},{"start":153.151,"end":171.529,"text":"因為時間比較短我們大概內部稍微討論了一下但是還沒有很詳細的對 因為裡面有些不是我們本來的領域對 因為我看到你們這份報告書的這個書面報告書裡面都說在107年的兒童及少年未來教育與發展賬戶條例跟從107年開始的少子"},{"start":174.992,"end":186.626,"text":"少子女化對策計畫那你們今天拿兩個說明當成報告內容來回應未來帳戶的特別條例草案我有點意外因為這兩個是這三個是不同的東西吧"},{"start":188.24,"end":203.731,"text":"應該是這麼說因為在這個條例今天的草案的條例的第一條立法的目的裡面呢他就開宗明義就寫了為了兩件事情一個是少子女化一個是要世代貧富的消米問題所以我們才會針對為了要達到這兩個"},{"start":206.213,"end":230.136,"text":"這個立法的目的其實目前行政單位的相對應的做法就是剛剛提到的少子女化行動對策以及這個所謂兒少的教育及發展未來107年那一套這個條例照顧的是弱勢家庭對吧他不是跟少子女化這個部分沒有關係吧沒有關係那為什麼會拿出來勒"},{"start":230.717,"end":256.645,"text":"因為今天這個條例的第一條的立法說明就寫了是為了要解決少子女化以及消米這個跨世代的貧富落差問題你那個照顧弱勢我看到也沒有幫到弱勢家庭很多啊就是他們家長出一塊國家出一塊嘛對啊他就已經很辛苦了還要叫他存他怎麼拿得出來"},{"start":257.025,"end":280.28,"text":"不過我們現在做了這個8年也有一些成果啦那麼我們也會來現在也在檢討要不要再做得更積極一點我們政策推動之後我們還是相關單位還是要去做這個滾動的檢討來做調整我希望這個錢要花在刀口上我們就是希望把這個錢花在刀口上"},{"start":280.58,"end":303.859,"text":"那100 少子女化的對策計畫我看107年到114年花了5931億元那主要是不是集中用在6歲以下兒童的育兒津貼托育跟幼教補助這種即時性的補助對 84%都用在0到6歲這個國家跟你一起養的這些策略上你接下來這個2.0計畫115年到118年我們又編了4250億對吧"},{"start":310.787,"end":316.743,"text":"對 那還是 我看這個做法還是跟過去的做法差不多嘛也都是用在以前60以下對不對"},{"start":318.056,"end":340.482,"text":"六歲這邊的這個就是國家跟你一起養的這邊還是會持續的擴大那另外一個就是希望在另外的這個教育還有這個住宅政策還有新手爸媽的寫手還有兒童的照顧的部分能夠再強化對那我看到這個部分花了那麼多錢我們的成效是什麼"},{"start":341.753,"end":355.49,"text":"這個就如恐剛剛我也有提到我們檢視這些作為好像也沒有一項是不應該做好像也都應該做那只不過是力道夠不夠要不要再講話我看到我們每年出生的人口數"},{"start":356.812,"end":379.3,"text":"同一段時間啦當時卻從大概是18萬人一路下降到10萬零7千人啦這個越做人越少不應該檢討嗎對不對 就表示說我們今天提的我們國民黨跟民眾黨提的這個法案是因為針對這個少子化的部分這已經是國安層級的問題嘛對不對 我們希望加大力度也就是說把它調整到"},{"start":381.061,"end":395.394,"text":"到18歲國家養不是國家養 說他出社會之後他有一筆那個是未來的他的資金啦對啊 所以我們在提這個您的看法部長有覺得這個需要嗎"},{"start":395.936,"end":424.812,"text":"就是我們現在在思考的是說如果現在我們在0到6歲這一段時間是要減輕育兒家庭的經濟負擔為主一個小孩子從出生到大學要花600萬到1000萬所以我們在做這個部分我認為政府現在年輕人不敢生的原因是因為現在養一個孩子要花那麼大的成本這個才是國家的重大問題要有人我們國家才有希望這樣人一直越來越少那以後台灣怎麼辦"},{"start":425.652,"end":450.831,"text":"對 所以我們現在目前的這個少子女對策大概在0到6歲投注的一個孩子大概是120到180萬的補助我認為這個也應該可以再更高一點來減輕這個這些育兒家庭的經濟負擔這個是應該優先來思考我們提出的條例是不會排擠也不會影響到0到6歲的這個既有的經費"},{"start":454.793,"end":467.981,"text":"這個我應該這樣講就是我們提到國防預算這個一照2500億我們政府連眼睛都不眨一下為什麼要照顧這個我們的小孩子要鼓勵我們的生育我們這麼多的問題呢這不應該討論嗎這不是更嚴重嗎"},{"start":473.396,"end":488.19,"text":"所以我贊成我們來討論那麼剛剛幾位委員也提到那麼以公聽會的方式也很好那麼讓各種的我們既有的政策再來做檢視力度要再加深的地方回去我希望部長您"},{"start":488.951,"end":511.745,"text":"以你的專業然後向我們相關行政院來反映一下當然他們現在一定會擋一定會多擋又會排擠到消音什麼的啦那又搞不好又牽扯到什麼總預算沒過那也希望部長回去跟院長講一下他說我們的挑三檢四嘛那我們也希望我們的這個這個什麼這個"},{"start":515.587,"end":526,"text":"行政院在編預算的時候不要編的七零八落 好不好我們把政策在全盤的再檢視一下好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員好 謝謝邱政軍委員發言"}]}},{"id":"167044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0d3a2a2744539e410b4bfe832d32782da7fca8e6801c49bdd444a855be115db145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:09:49 - 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他參加勞保他根據勞退條例有僱主提撥6%這你應該了解他也可以自提而且這是複利計算"},{"start":155.606,"end":178.086,"text":"他如果退伍了他結甲歸田他擔任農民我們上週才通過了農民退休儲金條例我們過去農民退休儲金必須你有參加農保但是我們短一期的志願役士官兵他有從農但因為他領了退伍金他不能適用老農津貼他有時候也不去加農保"},{"start":179.207,"end":192.087,"text":"但是我們上星期我們改了我們讓他可以加入農退農退是什麼假設說基本工資三萬你可以每個月存三千政府幫你補三千未來更好"},{"start":193.311,"end":216.811,"text":"過去是1比1現在是1比1.5政府出6成你出4成這是我們第二類農民他退伍結甲歸天后他可以選擇勞工他可以選擇農民都是從他退伍後才開始但是呢我們目前的陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例的23條你只要3年以上未滿20年折抵現在年資只給退伍金部長你了解嗎"},{"start":218.823,"end":241.216,"text":"好 聰明了解好 那我們要來個提議來 我們往下看如果說我們給這些短一期的志願式官兵也類似樣的勞退或者是說農民退休儲金政府幫他提繳一部分譬如說現在勞退是提6%勞工自己也可以提提1%到6%但是有八成以上勞工都沒有提大部分都靠政府提"},{"start":242.146,"end":269.06,"text":"這些錢 目前勞退資金你知道年化報酬率多少嗎上個月的新聞 年底的新聞我們平均每位勞退基金啊賺了五萬多啊一直成長喔那如果說我們今天我們國防部推行的這個政策把他放在TISA裡面他退伍之後 他如果去勞工他可以把他帶進勞退的專戶他如果從農 他可以進入了農退的專戶部長 這樣你了解吧"},{"start":270.646,"end":295.347,"text":"增加我們短義騎士官兵他退伍後的轉業保障您同意嗎您的意思是他在服役的期間對 他在服役的期間我們國防部就幫他比照參考類似勞退或農退的方式幫他提一筆錢他退伍後他才能帶走但是不是退伍金的概念退伍金是一次給這個是放在帳戶裡面我下面講給你聽來 你看看我幫你試算了"},{"start":296.167,"end":318.988,"text":"來下一頁假如說短期刺官兵我們目前以下的平均月薪大概是四萬三五年以上的平均是四萬五啦我是抓個平均啦如果我們政府提繳他在第一二年我們幫他提十趴三四年十二點五十五十七點五二十一此類推大概我們政府啊對他的比他的薪資的比例呢第一年要幫他存十萬三"},{"start":320.049,"end":347.239,"text":"三四你要幫他存 累積到232萬到了第五六年 七八年 最後十年內我們幫這樣的一個短一期志願役士官兵幫他存了71萬多但是這些錢在這十年當中根據我們的年化報酬率累積負利區計算他大概可以領回106萬請問藍市長106萬有沒有對於這些十年退伍的志願役士官兵第二類的農民有沒有比他們退伍金多"},{"start":348.959,"end":366.274,"text":"市長有沒有 你知道嗎旁邊有一位是哪一位直接說有沒有比較多有比較多多很多嘛報委員 其實我們除了一筆退伍金以外其實軍保的部分也有一筆的給付對 都是一致性的對 然後軍保的給付目前官兵致富額是35%然後國家負擔是65%軍保保哪些項目"},{"start":372.15,"end":390.763,"text":"保傷殘嘛很多項目嘛但是你知道嗎農退跟勞退只有保什麼退休的準備 你了解嗎所以勞保有沒有你說的也有農保也有所以我在講的是我講的不是保險我講的是職業保障所以部長你回去一下指示你們的幕僚研究一下"},{"start":391.443,"end":407.135,"text":"如果說今天我們國家要提升這些基層的志願役短期的士官兵他未來人生第二春他的準備除了前面的六項輔導之外請您評估一下這樣子如果以他十年來說政務投入的金額是71萬"},{"start":409.396,"end":429.202,"text":"71萬但是他可以領出來的因為有了TISA的複利他可以領出106萬這對我們團體的志願士官兵他的退伍後除了一次性的退伍金之外他不管轉從勞工 轉從農業他都可以持續的把這樣的一個對自己的職業保障帶進去部長 你了解了"},{"start":430.305,"end":448.34,"text":"我了解但是我想這個部分涉及到要看起來是一個新的制度那涉及到政府要提繳一定的比例這個部分應該不是國防部單純本身可以決定的我在財政委員會我很樂意協助"},{"start":448.9,"end":469.975,"text":"因為目前我們在國家的財政在我們家金管這個TISA這個事情是對全民來講的一個全民國民儲蓄在日本叫NISA在台灣叫TISA最後的結論因為時間到了我說結論請你評估指示呢另設短疫期士官兵提繳賬戶政府疫情年資逐年提高提交比例"},{"start":470.936,"end":481.274,"text":"其可自行提繳同等比例該帳戶基金投入TESA複利累積其退伍時可全額轉入勞退或農退帳戶的可行性一個月內提出書面報告 可以嗎"},{"start":482.55,"end":504.875,"text":"不過你那個投入TESA累積負力這件事情如果TESA它再去做這個整個投資的運用還是要看這個投資的一個還是有一定的當然它有一定的風險反正投資必有風險這沒有錯但是這幾年來我們覺得因為直接講一個負力好像這個一定可以負力它本來就是負力但是它當然會有"},{"start":506.615,"end":533.03,"text":"贏虧啦 會有損益這個請你們評估因為目前國家在推 金管會在推賴總統也支持 行政院也支持是不是為了提升我們短期志願役士官兵他們在第二春人生的時候除了退伍金目前既有的軍保的退伍金之外他可以有一個累計類似勞退或農退的方式他未來轉到農民 轉到勞工這一筆的退休保障會跟著他的人生走 好不好"},{"start":534.441,"end":542.011,"text":"這個我們要跟香港部會來進行但是你們先進行評估其他部會這個我都會設法來解決好不好好 我們來評估 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我們請陸委會梁副主委"},{"start":22.313,"end":40.432,"text":"委員好我們想請問一下上個禮拜中國國台辦再次擴大了所謂這個台獨頑固分子的清單又有更多人被列名其上那可不可以在這裡再一次的跟您請教這到底中國為什麼要列名這樣子的一個名單"},{"start":44.383,"end":55.55,"text":"他當然最大的目的就是要製造台灣內部的寒戰效應那他實際上也在針對一些他所"},{"start":57.914,"end":83.668,"text":"類型化 他要把它類型化譬如說政治人物是一個類型現在增加了這個部會首長然後來增加司法官這個類型是 沒錯 司法人員司法人員這個類型他們特別在意的就是有沒有偵辦國安案件那也不是所有偵辦國安案件的檢察官都會列入而是針對某一些他們特別重視的案件"},{"start":84.828,"end":113.265,"text":"所以目前看到是這樣子那你覺得效果如何目前看不到效果但是我必須跟委員報告就是說像他們這樣用一個國家的力量然後去宣布要制裁或是追溯個別的人士個別的人士那我想對於當事人來講可能心理上面都會有一些負擔那這也是他們想要得到的"},{"start":114.942,"end":122.151,"text":"兩副回答得很清楚喔也一下就掌握到我今天特別在這個質詢台上想要跟國人社會再一次強調的確實這個台獨頑固分子這樣子用來恫嚇台灣人民的這個名單喔現在甚至已經擴大到司法人員這是第二次把我國的司法官列名其上"},{"start":133.604,"end":147.83,"text":"那司法官本身我相信他們不足以心生畏懼一定持續秉公辦案但是會不會發生其他的效果會不會有更多的這個狀況大家可以看到中國的手確實是越伸越長甚至到司法體系來了"},{"start":148.61,"end":174.379,"text":"所以我覺得其實我們在各種法治的面向上確實應該要來防治中國這樣各種勢力的滲透中國各種勢力的進入這是今天我藉著這個上個週末比較少人注意到的連司法人員都再次被列明所謂台獨頑固分子清單再次跟國人提出沉重沉重的呼籲大家應該要注意這樣的事情"},{"start":175.299,"end":198.127,"text":"好 那回到我們今天的修法來看的話那其實啊 藍波我想請問一下其實反滲透法上路到現在已經是六年多了可是因為反滲透法它其實主要的目的是在禁止台灣民眾接受中國等境外敵對勢力的指示委託或資助並且一二三四五"},{"start":198.547,"end":218.197,"text":"列明的很清楚只有目前在目前的法規裡面現行法裡面只有五種類型所以上路六年到現在你覺得我們現在的成效如何甚至本月也有委員直接說啊從民國一百一十二年到一百一十四年啊這麼長的期間啊八成以上的都其實是不起訴啊可見這部法沒什麼用處吧那您認為呢這部法到底還不應該存在還是我們要怎麼面對它"},{"start":228.82,"end":248.227,"text":"我不會認為這部法沒有作用啦那有的時候起訴但是判決無罪並不代表真的無罪所謂判決無罪只是說你沒有辦法證明他有符合法條規定的罪證而已"},{"start":249.093,"end":262.745,"text":"那現在的我覺得反滲透法主要它的問題出在兩個第一個它所規定的要件是非常的特定"},{"start":264.366,"end":288.333,"text":"就只有五種而已啊對 非常特定譬如說剛剛黃捷委員所提出來他針對選罷法的選罷法的部分那就是針對說你已經登記參選了是然後我如果在你已經登記參選以後然後我捐錢給你或者什麼用資金資助你那個才算但是還沒登記參選之前不算那就算黃捷委員的所講的你參選人是過了"},{"start":289.053,"end":307.941,"text":"但他還是可以再早一步再更早就把就把資金到位所以現在問題就是說反滲透法他所規定的東西就是說中共的手法他永遠是比我們快我們今天不管定了什麼樣的規定他都可以從我們的規定之中找到漏洞"},{"start":308.641,"end":332.852,"text":"去處理所以這個是第一個問題那第二個問題就是說反送中法所規定的這些罪行這些罪行其實在我們看來是遠遠不夠的因為反送中法其實它主要規定的是這些政治活動競選然後它有關社會秩序的部分它就是它是屬於所謂聚眾鬥毆或是"},{"start":334.833,"end":347.119,"text":"恐嚇公眾等等但是我們現在看到的很多那個滲透的類型他是叫你去製造謠言他是叫你去打人或是去潑妻"},{"start":348.87,"end":366.25,"text":"不只啊甚至是可以說對於我們的物價產生波動這種訊息也可以啊或者是在救災防治的時候擴大我們的災害降低政府應變的策略等等製造對政府的不信任這種都是啊所以今天委員所提出來的各種各項的罪行"},{"start":367.071,"end":394.706,"text":"我認為都是從這陸委會的立場來講我們都是樂觀其成但是我還是要必須提醒大家今天不管任何一個因為我們的罪行的列舉是有限罪行的列舉是有限但是中共可以叫這個他在地協力者或他的滲透的對象所去做的事情是無限的他今天如果是去對於某一個人物他要叫人去剖欺"},{"start":395.889,"end":421.885,"text":"他去剖欺可是這個東西在我們刑法裡面剖欺甚至不算是什麼罪那但是他會造成這樣心理恐懼所以我覺得反滲透法的這個主要的問題不是在於這個法律有用或沒有用而是基於我剛剛所講的一些問題他會無法跟得上中共翻新的腳步"},{"start":422.785,"end":446.825,"text":"那還有一個最重要的問題是我們常常在法院在判的時候他都必須要去證明說你是受到對面的指示才來做這些事可是你往往那些指示的範圍或是對象是曖昧不明的那個曖昧不明就是說他是某某公司的負責人或是什麼單位或是如何他說他不是不屬於中共黨政軍這樣"},{"start":448.286,"end":474.808,"text":"所以我覺得反滲透法它還是有用但是我們要討論一下怎麼樣把它完善副主委因為我覺得你這段話非常的完整清楚又重要所以我幾乎把時間都讓給你了但是我還是覺得是這樣就是您剛剛說的話的部分我想要再做一個整理並且強調我不認為反滲透法是沒有用處的我相信您剛剛也沒有這樣說你認為是還是有用的"},{"start":475.248,"end":493.801,"text":"我覺得這一步法第一是確立我國國家的態度不容許境外等敵對勢力利用各種方法進入到我國國內破壞掉人民對政府的信任破壞社會的秩序第一個這步法是一個態度所以應該要必須要能夠完整"},{"start":494.281,"end":518.947,"text":"建構 這第一個 但第二個呢 確實包括我們剛剛在講說反省鬥法裡面 我們最大的這個目標是在確保我們的選舉行為 我們的公投行為也就是民主社會裡面非常重要的選舉公投這樣的意志 這樣的制度是可以完整的但任何有從事實務的人都知道所謂的選舉 所謂的公投 那是一個非常長時間的行為不是只有規定選舉期間的那幾天"},{"start":521.888,"end":545.224,"text":"絕對不是這樣的期間而已也不是你成為候選人以後才叫做選舉期間民主社會的選舉期是非常長的所以我們在執行了6年之後的反滲透法讓我們看到了現在這部法的困境因此我們要把這一個部分漏洞的部分給補起來所以才會有各個委員提出而且很遺憾的是喔都只有民進黨委員的版本啊"},{"start":546.505,"end":572.662,"text":"今天的使用法裡面全部都是民進黨委員提出的版本在對期間也好對身分別也好對行為類型也好我們做了一個更明確的規定這更明確並不是並不是加強對人民的控管而是把事情建構清楚讓大家能夠各司其職各守其位我想這是很清楚的事情我舉第一個例子的話就是應該是說像我們的這本提案書裡面的第一個"},{"start":574.484,"end":595.763,"text":"黃婕委員然後不是 沈伯陽 林楚茵和羅美玲委員提案我們都有共同簽署的像我自己也有簽署的就是在六之一條裡面對於剛剛謠言的部分我們就明確列舉了哪一些法條的這些行為你不應該散佈錯假訊息我想這是很清楚的事情我也希望等一下後面質詢的委員呢不要"},{"start":596.744,"end":612.014,"text":"亂了這個主題不要把這個部分我們修反滲透法又如同上一個禮拜修國安法一樣認為是在前置人民自由前置人民的行為我覺得這是完全錯誤的說法那我的時間用完了我先到這裡謝謝副主委謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167059","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167059","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce015e4fe5ea363512e8a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e90152979bf675f76cd7c0d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:11:50 - 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謝謝主席那我針對今天這個反滲透法存在的漏洞提出一個修正的提案那因為現行的反滲透法的法規對於候選人的認定是非常僵化的那導致說現行有幾個案例會讓境外勢力只要選對了時間點來佈局他們的滲透方式就可以大搖大擺的來干預我們台灣民主的選舉卻不必負擔任何的刑責"},{"start":37.549,"end":61.844,"text":"所以呢實務上我們已經看到有兩起荒謬的判決第一個是2024年大選的期間台中有一個假民調案有一個網媒的記者加上一個學者那他們受了中共指示發布了九波的總統大選的假民調但是一審的時候法院竟然認定說因為前六波發布的時間是因為候選人"},{"start":62.684,"end":79.03,"text":"還沒有完成登記所以他不算正式的候選人就不構成犯罪了然後就判定他無罪那我想要問大家請問在登記之前發布的假民調就沒有誤導選民嗎就沒有破壞民主的影響力嗎所以跟成為候選人前跟後對於實質造成民主的影響不應該用這樣一刀切的方式"},{"start":89.053,"end":106.139,"text":"那另外一個是在高雄的受資助的旅遊的造勢案那這個被告呢他收受中共的利益那為特定的候選人舉辦大規模的造勢那也招攬了里長到中國接受旅遊招待那甚至在席間他也只要求"},{"start":106.659,"end":127.47,"text":"必須要支持特定的候選人但是法院卻認定說這一些活動發生的期間也是因為對象還沒有正式成為登記的候選人所以也是被判無罪那我認為這就是一個非常明確的法律空窗期境外勢力可以利用在登記前的這段非常多長達數月的時間"},{"start":129.151,"end":148.664,"text":"提前進行這一些造勢提前進行這些抹黑的佈局那中共借選其實早就已經開始了那所以如果法律只有抓登記後的行為那反滲透法其實就是在告訴這一些境外勢力說你只要在登記之前動手台灣法律就拿你沒辦法嗎"},{"start":149.384,"end":164.549,"text":"那這樣子等於是在保障這些境外勢力提前借選的權利啊所以我認為要強化民主的防衛任性應該要提前這個候選人的資格的期限也就是我的提案裡面"},{"start":165.309,"end":187.046,"text":"只要參選人只要開設了政治獻金專戶成為你參選人之後就應該要適用這個反滲透法不能讓這個登記的日期變成是滲透行為的保護傘所以這個防線應該要往前移才能確保每一次的選舉都能在公平透明而且不受到境外勢力操弄的環境下來舉行謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167058","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167058","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0ab0f09259533af108a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297c0e5c612942c44225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:06:05 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顧部長 顧部長本席過去到現在一直認為說保密相對重要國家其實有所謂的這個國家檔案機密法 保密法所以說我想請教一下像今天我們又送進來的這個報告其實每一次給立法院外交國防委員會我想已經在第11屆的立法院每一次都有這樣的一個報告"},{"start":32.856,"end":52.599,"text":"那現在突然說傳出來現在這個報告上面又寫一個五本憲署公開資訊我想請教一下這跟我們現在的這個國家機密保密法有什麼樣的一個出路有什麼樣的差別國家機密保護法他也有一個要"},{"start":53.686,"end":79.427,"text":"合定機密的一個精神嗎是啊那我們我們過去到現在不都這樣做嗎如果說公文書裡面有機密有分普通件機密件這個高機密件跟絕對機密件嗎那我想先請教因為其實這就是國人現在看到就是說這一段時間尤其這兩個禮拜讓大家覺得說非常訝異或說覺得是說好像多此一舉就是說"},{"start":80.516,"end":95.823,"text":"給外交國防委員會的資料我想這邊也有媒體也有相關的委員同仁等等的那你這些資料不是都屬於公開資訊嗎多增加這一句話的意思是什麼對核定這份資料的人來講他要確定這一份都是公開資訊"},{"start":97.898,"end":123.114,"text":"那過去沒有嗎過去沒有核定我們現在要求就是說希望他們在核定的時候因為過去如果沒有辦法能夠逐頁或者逐段的來核定的時候就會導致兩種情況一個就是說本來應該要列密的沒有列密那或者是本來不應該列密的把它列明過去有發生過嗎"},{"start":124.435,"end":139.089,"text":"我想請教一下 因為外交國防委員會跟其他委員會比較不一樣是有些時候可能會開秘密會議也因此在開秘密會議的時候 即便是我們委員也要簽到也要屬於是說你要參加秘密會議還是要是公開質詢那秘密會議的時候會把記者媒體朋友被請出去那我現在請教一下如果在開機密專報的話"},{"start":144.013,"end":159.303,"text":"那這些機密的文件確實會有包含它會標示機密或標示無那麼委員在即使就拿到這個機密專報切決要保密的情況之下如果那一段是屬於無的話委員就會很清楚理解那一段是可以公開的"},{"start":160.083,"end":180.946,"text":"是 那我現在就說90%的情況不是整份文件都變成密現在在討論的是我現在跟你在討論那今天的資料上禮拜記者會已經讓大家覺得嘩然就說連國防部的記者會都要每一句每一句連報告完畢都要有一個無那結果你那個時候我想 顧部長"},{"start":182.367,"end":193.37,"text":"我尊重我們國軍弟兄大家的一個專業但是也不要讓變成是說長官一句話國軍弟兄大家叫苦連天或說大家變成是要做很多的紙上作業"},{"start":196.074,"end":216.611,"text":"來消耗大家的行政量能所以本席想要請教的是你現在又再改變了說不用每一段都後面加5但我想請教的是說像今天這個報告本來它就是一個公開的回覆的資訊的一個報告上面又加一個5本件屬公開資訊那過去有公開資訊裡面放密件嗎"},{"start":222.236,"end":234.747,"text":"如果一份文件他有一些部分是並不是屬於密的那他過去的話他就會可能是一份上百頁報告的內容他其中有一個段落涉及機密結果整份報告都列為密"},{"start":235.948,"end":245.412,"text":"所以我們現在才會有一個不管是從美軍的做法或相關友盟國家的做法我們來一個做精準和密我再講一下因為現在在數位化的這個時代"},{"start":251.175,"end":280.25,"text":"我們對於相關的這些文書的這些檔案我們到時候都要有一個儲存然後我們有一個傳遞我們一個運用那麼我們如果做這樣的機密核試大家才會讓人家理解說我們在不同的這個機密的網域裡面他可以有儲存相關的哪些資料然後哪一些被核密的人員他可以接觸到哪一些的密機密即機密跟絕對機密都是不一樣的人"},{"start":280.49,"end":297.975,"text":"所以這個精準和密的做法 精準和密的做法是美方行之有年我們要跟他做共同的對接這是一定要做的一個精準的動作重點 中華民國我們自己就有我們自己的機密保護嘛"},{"start":298.855,"end":308.7,"text":"你的法源依據是不是也是依照中華民國的機密保護跟委員報告根據國軍的保密教則本來就規定要逐段逐頁要審任機密我們只是沒有去落實所以過去都沒有落實部長講一個大實話過去都沒有落實我們現在是要求要這樣的落實那所以新頒的這些相關的規定這樣子"},{"start":324.614,"end":348.382,"text":"所以今天本席要跟你探討就是兩個部分過去部長講一個大實話過去都沒有落實那該檢討該究責但現在不要矯枉過正啊我想請教一下給外交國防委員會所有媒體朋友大家都可以上網甚至一般的民眾上立法院議事網站你也可以有相關的資料可以看到啊"},{"start":349.417,"end":373.873,"text":"那我想請教像這樣子在上面再多一個5本件屬公開資訊這個意義在哪邊就是告訴這個是一個公開資訊而且過去的就沒有寫5就不是公開資訊核定的人就會在每一段上面他都足頁都能夠認知到這是一個公開資訊我想請教外交國防的資料過來的時候有沒有被核定過我們可以來保持一個開放討論的一個"},{"start":380.698,"end":403.141,"text":"給外交國防委員會資料是給誰核定 最高成績給到誰核定過去到現在外交國防委員會的資料最高成績到誰核定 市長還是部長 甲章乙章我想如果到國防部來進行報告 最後當然都會到我這邊來大家進行討論所以過去到現在也都是你核定啊"},{"start":403.936,"end":410.379,"text":"不是說核定的概念的權限的問題是說要進到這個外交官委員會來你剛剛才講是說要給核定人確認然後是看這到底是機密還是無機密現在又講說不是權限的問題你可以說好那如果要這樣講的話關於到外交官委員會的報告都是會經過我這邊是所以你過去沒有落實"},{"start":430.612,"end":450.656,"text":"我們過去要怎麼樣進行標示這件事情並不清楚副長本席很語重心長因為我希望是我們國軍做實事如果說真如同說現在民進黨政府想要兵兇戰為不要讓我們國軍弟兄大家變成是都在做紙上工夫然後大家都在做行政作業流程"},{"start":451.3,"end":471.58,"text":"上個禮拜已經每一段落後面一個五已經讓大家覺得是一笑大方但現在你要搞另外一個部分其實國家機密檔案法本來也就有相關的規定如果說是普通件上面在一開始公文傳說的時候就會寫普通件如果說有機密件就會寫說機密幾年解密它有相關的規定"},{"start":473.101,"end":491.988,"text":"但國防部現在變成是自己在搞另外一個版本或是另外一個系統你說要跟美方還是跟我們國家接軌如果說是跟國家接軌的話那其他部會要不要比賽辦理那如果說是跟美方接軌的話很抱歉我們中華民國有我們自己的法令規定也不是美國人說什麼我們都要聽什麼我覺得這兩個要分得非常清楚"},{"start":496.994,"end":524.859,"text":"在軍事上面我們可以跟美國有比較多的一個合作但是對我們自己的一個保密的部分我覺得我們自己要依照我們自己相關的法令中華民國法令本來就有規定不是嗎國防部就是在推動這樣子的一個精準的資料治理啊所以你們過去就沒有精準嗎然後現在又有點是矯枉過正嘛所以說才會變成是說之後每一個報告上面都要有一個5然後本件署公開資訊嘛"},{"start":526.636,"end":545.682,"text":"這就矯枉過正然後上禮拜我還是強調上禮拜我們委員在跟你質詢的時候其實大家也都是把民眾看到的部分甚至你說記者會公開的資訊我們都請教記者會都已經是國防部邀請來記者朋友來報導了你們會把機密秀出來給記者看嗎那結果還要這邊標示這種部分"},{"start":551.411,"end":558.719,"text":"那今天給我們所有外交國防委員會的委員就已經是公開的資訊了還要再多編列 多標示"},{"start":562.267,"end":580.681,"text":"我們做一點實事啦我們是在做實事就是在做實事所以我才跟你再一次的提醒這件事是實事不要再只上作業讓官兵弟兄造成行政上的一個浪費會整個會帶動我們的一個數位化資料治理的一個進步"},{"start":581.522,"end":606.856,"text":"跟委員報告這是事實部長您之後慢慢的我想我們現在在磨合期還會有很多可以討論的空間我們會徵詢各界的意見然後來隨時檢討改進但是這是一件應該要做的一個基本功所以本席就是聽你這句話之後才會覺得說您上禮拜推動的真的是太過倉促沒有討論就直接推動"},{"start":608.197,"end":616.889,"text":"好好的做事希望我們國軍弟兄加油好不好我們是討論了有相當長的時間但是當然還是有一些值得檢討的地方啦謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"167047","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167047","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce01a4b5fa1868b4a4ae6ea9f55fbd6b8757fca8e6801c49bddb530526dddbaabce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:20:56 - 11:31:22","影片長度":"00:10:26","會議時間":"2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請考試院秘書長、銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處人事長、內政部、教育部、行政院主計總處針對「立法院通過之警、消、公、教退休金改革法案之具體執行措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（ㄧ）委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳宗憲等22人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百零四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第九十三條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、併案審查\n（一）委員翁曉玲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林倩綺等21人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零八條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-12","start_time":"2026-01-12T11:20:56+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-12T11:31:22+08:00","duration":626,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.98409375,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.03346875,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.028468750000002,"end":16.602218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.551593750000002,"end":79.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.52909375,"end":99.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.64409375000001,"end":125.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.71159375,"end":206.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.35721875000002,"end":210.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.80846875,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.20909375000002,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.59221875,"end":215.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.84471875000003,"end":220.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.97034375,"end":228.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.09659375,"end":230.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.88096875000002,"end":237.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.65221875,"end":239.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.70659375000002,"end":249.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.53346875000003,"end":241.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.60284375,"end":256.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.09221875000003,"end":256.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.19346875,"end":267.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.32659375000003,"end":271.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.76909375,"end":354.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.74346875000003,"end":354.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.77721875000003,"end":355.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.04721875,"end":355.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.33409375,"end":355.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.43534375,"end":355.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.21159375,"end":388.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.91096875000005,"end":394.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.53034375000004,"end":399.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.16284375000004,"end":400.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.78284375000004,"end":412.23659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.49096875000004,"end":405.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.27534375000005,"end":408.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.30409375000005,"end":439.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.54471875,"end":444.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.40471875000003,"end":452.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.85971875,"end":449.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.29784375,"end":453.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.79971875,"end":478.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.87596875,"end":479.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.21346875,"end":479.24721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.38221875000005,"end":497.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.19784375,"end":511.27596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.83284375000005,"end":527.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.95346875,"end":524.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.64909375,"end":597.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.06409375,"end":599.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.2834687500001,"end":608.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.10096875,"end":606.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.34534375,"end":625.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.5703437500001,"end":627.03846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.447,"end":12.13,"text":"朱熹時間真的太久了那個有請法務部謝謝法務部還有司法院"},{"start":16.038,"end":44.037,"text":"委員好好 兩位早我想今天召委安排這個刑事訴訟法的審查可是因為裡面有民眾黨團的提案的版本那至於民眾黨團提案的版本有多麼荒謬剛剛審發會委員也好或是無私要委員都說得非常清楚我就不再贅述可是我覺得還是想要提醒相關的主管機關你們在看待委員修法的時候絕對不要再說尊重大院的決議因為現在所謂你們口中的大院就是立法院通常就是三讀"},{"start":44.918,"end":66.815,"text":"表決過關甚至呢相關的討論都不願意進行實質討論那到底是為了照顧什麼樣的個案也看不清楚喔所以我不希望後續再看到你們所謂的尊重大院的決定因為如果按照這個版本呢就會變成如果按照民眾黨團的版本今天不敢出席的黃國昌委員的版本就會變成是行為人可以篡政但是不可以滅政這是太荒謬 篡政篡到寶"},{"start":68.436,"end":87.376,"text":"大篡政時代即將來臨我們來看一下相關資料來下一張根據法務部網站統計資料呢積壓的前三名喔都來到炸七毒品危害防治條例還有竊盜我們來看113年的數字我把這前三項加起來呢大概就佔了78%"},{"start":88.877,"end":114.842,"text":"也就是我們花了很多力氣在確保詐欺毒品危害防治還有竊盜的相關罪犯不要有串證的問題所以我們做了羈押這個動作可是這件事情如果在民眾黨團眼睛看起來他們覺得辦詐欺案也好或者是辦這個毒品危害防治條例不會有串證的問題所以他們把串證的這個拿掉所以我當然覺得非常的荒謬可是因為荒謬的法案我不想浪費時間我只是做出提醒來下一個"},{"start":115.502,"end":129.959,"text":"那我們來看一下如果我所謂的串證這個問題被拿掉會發生什麼樣的事情我用這個毛俊坤的案子為例之前呢我看簡報的左手邊框起來這個部分"},{"start":130.559,"end":153.609,"text":"這個案件最早被通報的時候是在111年的7月7號可是一直到113年的9月底才被起訴那這段期間呢毛顯總共陸續對39名幼童犯罪743次還包含持有兒少性影像869部照片1679張而我們看相關的犯罪時間點就落在111的7月到113的9月"},{"start":154.87,"end":173.223,"text":"那我们当时就想如果当时有及早的羁押这一名行为人是不是就可以避免更多儿少的困境哦所以后续呢我自己也提出了修法我在2024年提出我希望羁押的规定可以纳入儿少性剥削防治条例36跟38的部分"},{"start":173.743,"end":194.326,"text":"我很開心看到司法院在之前的新聞稿也競表贊同那我後續看到今天司法院跟法務部的報告應該都是一樣的立場那甚至也感謝你們提醒我們其實把36的其他四五項擴充進去這個部分我們後續會提出修正動議感謝你們對於兒少的關心跟支持那我當然也希望更多的委員支持"},{"start":194.887,"end":215.437,"text":"好那以上這邊請問兩位還有表示任何意見嗎因為我們現在看到司法院的報告是還沒有送送進立法院對不對是只有報告給行政院會那有機會送進來嗎司法院這邊的修法的還是你們自己不送因為那是屬於刑事訴訟法是屬於司法院主責的那個條文"},{"start":216.497,"end":244.166,"text":"那司法院已經院會通過了去年就已經通過了也已經送到那個法務部跟行政院那現在還在行政院審查好那我們就等行政院後續送出那行政院這邊法務部這邊有什麼建議現在那個草案在行政院裡面好那有預計什麼時候要送嗎如果因為委員這邊已經召委這邊已經排審了你們有預計什麼時候要送嗎這個我大概要等行政院開會決定好那再盡快給我們回覆好不好因為我怕召委這邊如果很快要把它往下走完"},{"start":244.506,"end":249.549,"text":"好 兩位請回 謝謝那接下來有請全序部施部長還有人事總署 謝謝委員好好 部長我從我從一個新聞上看到您一直以來始終如一我非常的驚訝在2017年呢 中國時報有一個報導您當時是人事總長 對嗎"},{"start":269.425,"end":296.354,"text":"對那個那個年代我是當人事長對對對你當時就說年輕公務員離職應該是重考不同科別跟年金改革沒有關係很開心8年後您站在這裡依然為年金改革持續說話給你一個大大的讚喔一個有風骨的人對於自己在講的事情價值觀非常清楚不會有人一下從黃的變白的可能會變紅的所以部長您非常了不起那我們如果接下來看更多實質的問題我們今天不來討論這個"},{"start":297.694,"end":317.237,"text":"可能違憲年金改革我想跟您討論公職人員考試這件事情我們因為關心離職的問題不像有的委員只會妹妹那沒有去看相關資料我們來看一下相關資料確實近三年來公務人員未滿三年的離職人數真的還蠻多的那我們就去猜想可能的原因"},{"start":317.637,"end":337.45,"text":"如果所謂的一個立法委員想要立出好的法案真的想要協助改變問題那我們就要去找到問題的根源我們來看一下考試院的會議記錄裡面在114年的7月31號裡面有說高達20.5%的人可能有重複錄取的狀況也就是他曾經考上可是還要去重考"},{"start":337.95,"end":354.08,"text":"那我們就開始想他有什麼原因可能要去重考我們確實去問了一些比較年輕的公務人員他們給了我們一些說法的可能性也想聽聽看部長您的意見有一個說因為呢分發地點比較像是抽盲盒的概念部長你知道什麼叫盲盒嗎"},{"start":356.441,"end":375.833,"text":"好好抽盲盒就是不知道會抽到哪裡去還有呢公務機關的勞動條件欠佳當然我知道你們已經很努力在改善可是抽盲盒這件事情現在還沒有辦法改善原因是他要分發的時候他並不知道會分發到哪裡去那如果家裡面有比較小的小孩要照顧那該怎麼辦呢我們來看下一張"},{"start":376.593,"end":394.556,"text":"那現在我知道在公務人員申簽法第五條第三項裡面有說只要職務列等相同而且職務相當並且經過徵審委員會同意就可以互換對不對那可是我比較好奇他要怎麼找到可以跟他互換的人我們現在有相關平台嗎"},{"start":395.763,"end":411.236,"text":"我理解應該沒有特別的沒有特別設計這個平台但是應該這樣講所有機關如果有出缺他都要公告在市球園人球市上面會有一個上面的搜尋功能我的印象我上去用過應該還不錯那部長因為我沒有用過"},{"start":414.378,"end":441.3,"text":"我也很好奇假設這個平台他還有機會再改善針對我們的公務人員他想要再換回轉調回他自己的家鄉或者是他的孩子他的家人所在的地方這個平台有沒有可能再改善這個後續我們會再跟你們討論好不好但我想我就先提出這個建議因為你說事求人人求事現在已經有相關機制但是可不可以積極的媒合這些想要回到自己家鄉想要回去照顧小孩照顧爸媽的應該說媒合這個功能應該可能但是"},{"start":442.52,"end":454.727,"text":"資訊揭露應該是非常清楚結論我知道了有資訊揭露可是媒合條款可能還不夠媒合平台機制還不夠那我們辦公室希望持續跟你們討論這一題好不好這個事情是總署負責總署負責我會請總署幫忙好不好你就說好就好了好不好"},{"start":458.989,"end":476.648,"text":"因為我們確實想要協助這些公務員改善相關問題再來下一個修法可能會需要兩位一起負責關於養育子女的部分現在在公務人員任用法第22條第二項裡面規定說年資一年以上養育三歲以下的子女你就可以申請轉調 對嗎現在是這樣寫的 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賴委員部長早辛苦了首先我想請教一下因為據相關的報導說美軍抓馬杜洛的時候使用了聲波武器這個聲波武器我不知道我們國軍目前有沒有這種武器沒有你知道這個事情吧"},{"start":41.665,"end":46.166,"text":"我有看到媒體的報導2018年5年多前 蕭美琴當立委的時候質詢美國駐中國大陸大使館的外交官受到聲波的攻擊 腦損"},{"start":64.962,"end":81.457,"text":"這一次呢 媒體報導的時候那時候的美國駐古巴的大使館也發生過類似申報的攻擊也就是在五年多前五年多前小美琴她執行的是大陸的古巴是我另外找的資料"},{"start":83.203,"end":92.806,"text":"那麼就是已經有這樣的技術喔就五年多前就有這樣的技術就有這個事情發生喔然後 這個看到最近的媒體報導是說噢 這個 委內瑞拉的這個士兵啊動彈不得 吐血倒地腦袋像爆炸一樣流鼻血 等等的喔 很緊張喔 很厲害 這樣喔"},{"start":109.605,"end":116.375,"text":"你會不會 我們國軍的想要一套這個東西做記事要不要先回答"},{"start":117.582,"end":145.643,"text":"委員好 我是座議事次長有關各種目前在不管是武裝衝突或是戰爭當中可能使用的威脅形態國軍都有不管從智庫的分析或者跟友盟情勢上的交換來去掌握相關的不管是運用或者是防禦的方法那剛剛委員所講包含美軍使用這項武器事實上現在美軍並沒有證實看到了可能是網路上的"},{"start":146.624,"end":172.349,"text":"可是我已經提到2018年蕭美琴就死刑了啊可見的2018年就有了啊2018年就有了包委員我們現在也透過我們的創新你們都不知道你們都不知道這個事我們在做高能微波或是雷射或是其他各種新式武器的科研案那當然未來國軍會在各種能力上能夠經過科研後所以你這樣講我是不是用白話文講說國軍已經在研究"},{"start":176.49,"end":203.541,"text":"類似聲波攻擊的武器是不是沒有或者聲波防禦沒有沒有要想一下啊 如果解放軍來的話我們如果這樣東西 至少防禦一下讓他這個馬上就倒地很厚的對不對 這個是什麼這個還不是致命性的武器啊它不是致命性的武器它音量很大它裡面頻率特殊 能量集中"},{"start":206.808,"end":211.177,"text":"這個部長啊你那個1.25兆的特別預算你不要把這個列入採購的項目啊"},{"start":213.533,"end":224.301,"text":"我想因為現在都屬於這個媒體相關的報導或者是有一些這樣疑似的一些不是疑似喔2018年蕭美琴的質詢啊哪裡疑似這怎麼是疑似呢2018年你看一看 Google一下2018年蕭美琴當立委的質詢啊咧都有啊咧那時候就有人五年多都有了你怎麼不會想到我們也是一個防禦性的武器啊"},{"start":241.192,"end":245.433,"text":"我這邊以國防部的理解我們沒有辦法證實所以萬一如果解放軍對我們國軍採取深波攻擊的有沒有防禦之道委員因為提出來我們會盡量的好去研究吧我再講一遍不要忘了不是今天媒體才講的2018年蕭美琴就質詢了"},{"start":269.144,"end":271.726,"text":"你去看看你去看看蕭美琴的資訊好 我們下一個題這個所以你們要去研究這個題目嘛不知道是 我們來來研究一下是什麼時候會有結果"},{"start":286.439,"end":302.88,"text":"我們可能要做一個相關的情收這個很厲害這個東西看起來不像生化武器那麼的可怕可是也是很厲害啊不然的話我那天那一次死了上百人美軍很厲害啊美軍太厲害了"},{"start":305.201,"end":325.217,"text":"零傷亡 哇 這太厲害了就是這個武器啊 那我特別引用了蕭美琴的這個事情好 我們再看第二個題目我就請教 因為我時間有限了快到了你是不是確定了吃通電這個軍種已經撤掉了並到陸軍裡面去 是不是確定"},{"start":326.062,"end":351.603,"text":"官員報告不是這樣子的意思是自動電軍裡面的通訊負責部隊的野戰通訊就是部隊在進行當中他要有一個野戰通訊所以將這個通訊的部隊呢現在本來編配那麼現在直接改回到陸軍自動電軍還是要維持他的專業特別著重在網路戰跟電子戰的部分"},{"start":352.363,"end":379.046,"text":"那我就請教我們現在軍種是陸海空直通還是陸海空三個還是四個我們軍種我們軍種三個還是四個軍種跟兵種不一樣軍種就是陸海空那憲兵就是一種兵種不是一個軍種你原來有直通電軍是一個兵種不是一個軍種可是報導都說本來是一個軍種"},{"start":380.802,"end":398.005,"text":"不是不是不是本來就沒有資通電軍他是要不要相關的長官講一下那個站櫃是管這個報告委員資通電軍他從一開始的定位就是屬於國防部的直屬單位我們並沒有在編制上面賦予他軍種的位階"},{"start":399.229,"end":423.556,"text":"他是兵種 不是軍種也不是兵種這個是外界的說法我們在正式的文件裡面並沒有賦予他軍種的這個位階跟權限可是相關的長官原來少將都變中將了啊這個缺都出來了啊 不是嗎他是提升他的位階然後把他的功能提升可是他跟軍種與否是沒有關係的"},{"start":425.206,"end":451.506,"text":"好 如果這樣講的話那我就請教這個資通電是不是如果講軍啦不一定軍種 資通電軍是不是外面一般所俗稱的白話文講就是大家講說部隊裡面的網軍是不是可以這樣講不是不是 什麼區別"},{"start":453.991,"end":478.496,"text":"網軍他是在外面採取網路訊息散播的方式去做達成某一種行為那直通電軍他設立的目的是以電子作戰攻防以及支援的方式還有網路攻防跟支援的方式來支援聯合作戰部隊有效執行任務所以這跟外面的網軍是天差地別"},{"start":480.279,"end":480.46,"text":"請教部長這個"},{"start":483.786,"end":512.393,"text":"你這次的1.25兆的特別預算雖然還沒有付為了但是我們所知道都是主要是就台灣之盾的擴大版或者是主要就防空系統嘛所以我就想說是不是一定買很多的飛彈啊不是很多的飛彈如果這樣子有沒有考慮過要不要類似中國大陸 俄羅斯 北韓 沙烏地阿拉伯除了陸海空以外都有個火箭軍有沒有這樣考量"},{"start":513.254,"end":516.076,"text":"跟委員報告齁 這個中國的這個火箭機主要當然它是包含導彈這些的那我們這邊 我們也有導彈啊不是我們對啊 我們也有防空的也有反艦的那另外我們這個海馬士也是一種遠程的火箭"},{"start":535.427,"end":562.198,"text":"那如果你要講這一次軍演中國所使用的PH-1-1的PCH-1-1部分的話那我們的相對應也就是海馬士那我們海馬士現在已經公佈我們原來買29現在再增加82就我們就會有111套這樣具有高機動性高存活率的遠程的精準的一個火箭新買的海馬士的射程可以多遠"},{"start":563.698,"end":577.582,"text":"他平常一般蛋大概70到90那如果是ATACMS的話40到300那當然美方還有另外一種PRSM的話可以到500500可以達到哪裡大概江西左右吧好 所以沒有 我最後一句話你沒有回答我"},{"start":589.434,"end":593.937,"text":"有沒有考慮要成立火箭軍你剛剛講我們飛彈很厲害啊很多啊要不要考慮加一個軍種叫火箭軍他雖然叫火箭軍但是這幾個國家的所有火箭軍他都是以戰略飛彈部隊為主他具有戰略層次的打擊能力所以我們的我們只以守勢作戰來講我們的所有的火箭跟飛彈都是用為自衛所用的我們可以打到江西就不是守勢了喔不是跟委員報告"},{"start":619.112,"end":625.24,"text":"你不要看到火箭軍這兩個字以為他叫火箭他其實說是戰略性的那些飛彈對嘛 就飛彈軍嘛"},{"start":629.899,"end":642.846,"text":"但是對我們來講 我們的反艦的飛彈 我們飛在海軍我們的防空飛彈也在空軍 那我們的海馬是在陸軍我們都是採聯合作戰的一個首次作戰所以沒有 你 我的答案就是 戰不考慮就對了啦 是不是就這麼簡單啦 可以這樣講嗎委員要進一步了解一下 這個所謂中國的火箭軍 它的內涵是什麼"},{"start":653.132,"end":658.237,"text":"還有俄羅斯 北韓 沙烏地阿拉伯都有軍種都有不是只有中國大陸而已"}]}},{"id":"167051","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167051","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0acba77c21473b140e6ea9f55fbd6b8757fca8e6801c49bdde25638440f1b511c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:31:27 - 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早安 先請教一下秘書長我們現在考試院已經向大法官申請釋憲了嗎有關於公教人員停侃年紀的部分 是什麼時候申請 上禮拜四上個星期四對不對 就申請釋憲那請問一下您知道行政院也已經就這件事情這個議題申請釋憲了嗎 知道"},{"start":42.999,"end":66.831,"text":"所以這應該是創下一個記錄兩院同時因為一個法案當然兩個法案公務人員跟公教人員同時兩院雙管齊下去申請釋憲不覺得是對於我們退休公教人員的一個很強大壓力的追殺嗎"},{"start":68.456,"end":90.844,"text":"絕對沒有這個問題因為畢竟這樣的修法使得退府基金會提前四年用慶這個對後面的公教人員來說這個是很大的風險所以考量到基金永續的角度所以行政院去申請市縣還不夠然後考試院也要加碼因為法律主管機關不一樣因為教育部是行政院主管公務人員是考試院主管"},{"start":91.404,"end":113.401,"text":"這個已經是創下我們大概憲政史上兩個院級一起去實現那剛才院也問了很多因為你們現在是一個所謂技術性說要半年的時間做重新審定那我想請問一下考試院如果在這半年之內"},{"start":117.364,"end":133.848,"text":"大法官沒有做出任何的釋憲那到時候就要上路那上路之後呢上路之後是不是應該要回溯回溯到我們法律裡面規定的114年1月份開始對不起 112年是不是要回溯"},{"start":141.578,"end":156.284,"text":"因為法律的寫法並沒有讓這個法案提前生效它是從去年的12月28日生效所以12月28號以前它會依照舊法的規定發放所以你們要繼續賴皮囉沒有 這個沒有賴皮的問題"},{"start":158.445,"end":181.86,"text":"委員你看我們退伏法最後一條其實過去的修法都有法例說某些修正的條文他可能是指定後面的日期某一天生效也有指定前面在法律通過公佈之前生效的條文我們在法律上有回溯我們法律上有回溯但是這一次修法沒有這樣寫他沒有去指定生效日"},{"start":182.6,"end":202.426,"text":"所以他就會變成是總統公佈後三天生效生效之前你必須用舊法去執行生效之後用新法所以你們要繼續再做賴皮這沒有賴皮另外在時間點上因為你說這個是涉及18萬的公教人員所以要用半年的時間18萬公務人員"},{"start":204.306,"end":220.905,"text":"公務人員但是我想請問一下因為當年在2018年7月1號開始實施這個軍公教停侃年金當時的這個軍人的部分他的三讀通過的時間是2018年的6月20號三讀通過"},{"start":224.449,"end":237.357,"text":"但是當時擔任行政院長的賴清德院長他當時就說7月1號同步上路同步上路也就是在軍人的部分事實上是2018年的6月20才三讀通過可是他也在當年的7月1號與公教同步的施行"},{"start":249.013,"end":270.201,"text":"所以我覺得其實要不要施行是在為政者的一念之間我承認因為當時公教的部分是在前一年完成三讀我知道在前一年完成三讀然後他在隔一年的7月1號開始上路但是軍人的部分因為當時軍人他的爭議性也很大"},{"start":271.261,"end":291.687,"text":"所以他當時軍人的部分是在當年的6月20號三讀通過所以我要講的是其實什麼時候正式的上路是在為政者的一念之間呢而並不在於說你們今天以一個所謂的重新審定其實看起來因為你們去提出視線了你們去提出視線只不過是想要用時間來換取空間"},{"start":300.649,"end":325.039,"text":"這是兩個獨立的事件威恩就像您講的公教人員在2017年8月的時候法案公佈2018年7月1號上路中間這10個月的時間我們全序部的同仁是大動員然後假日加班沒日沒夜的在做那個重新審定的工作這個如果執行面可以彈指之間一念之間就讓它實現的話那公務同仁都不用存在了"},{"start":326.139,"end":346.73,"text":"現在我請問 因為你們說大概需要半年時間因為你剛才在回答其他委員的時候也說只要在按照我們的法律的程序如果大法官有一種可能他沒有提出就是說這是不違憲 但這個可能性比較低因為現在大法官完全都是聽從賴總統的"},{"start":348.951,"end":371.528,"text":"那也有可能說他沒有排反正他在這個半年之間他都沒有做出違憲的一個判定的時候那請問一下按照這個時間可不可以在今年的7月1號正式上路呢如果審定工作都完成了那各機關就是依照這個審定去執行你們可以去定一個目標啊不是嗎所以我們講說大概預估就是六個月吧"},{"start":375.217,"end":397.581,"text":"對啊六個月啊我六個月我說你七月一號上路不是也剛剛好嗎好我希望你們能夠你們能夠說到做到雖然我認為是時間換取時間那個空間時間換取空間對不起時間暫停一下我現在再請我們內政部今天內政部是警政署人事室主任"},{"start":407.435,"end":412.177,"text":"這個部分其實是我認為是劉士芳部長的責任但是我要特別提一下就是警察人員的人事條例因為我們已經是占讀通過但是你們也是拒不執行拒不執行之外你們甚至在警察人員的定義裡面把移民署排除在外把移民署排除在外"},{"start":433.467,"end":438.71,"text":"但是這很沒有道理因為當年林右昌當時他做這個所謂的危險加急的時候他做危險加急的時候他把這個移民署還有空情他認為這個也有他的危險所以把他納入了這個比照警察也調高15%"},{"start":454.139,"end":456.46,"text":"可是這一次警察人員的人事條例三讀之後第一個當然你們拒不執行拒不編這個法定預算但是你們又把警政署的人員把他移除了我認為這非常不合理因為警政人員過去他也是從警察他所移出的"},{"start":474.571,"end":503.209,"text":"另外還有一個就是在你們的這個照護方案就是對於警消的這個照護方案醫療照護方案在所有跟這個警消相關的人事單位裡面你們又獨獨排除了移民署的人事也就是他們這個警消的一個醫護照顧你們又把移民署給排除了"},{"start":504.108,"end":529.017,"text":"因為移民署它事實上也有司法警察的角色跟它的功能所以這部分我覺得我要特別為移民署的人員來做來幫他們做陳情來幫他們來爭取所以我希望今天在我們警消海巡還有這些空情移民署的人員他們過去都源自於警察希望不要有這種兩套標準"},{"start":531.238,"end":545.766,"text":"不要讓他們好像變成是在你們整個的系統裡面你們作為次等公民我這樣因為你們是幕僚人員我希望你們能夠帶回去未來也能夠幫他們來說話爭取一下好不好以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17191","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17191","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685f698f77e6c3706a6775d1cb19bfd4f9f0a219bd209750d2d73f39afb7c4a43565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「臺灣未來帳戶特別條例草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-12T08:36:13+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-12T15:44:00+08:00","duration":25667,"影片長度":"07:07:47","委員發言時間":"08:36:13 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請主席宣布開會"},{"start":1584.484,"end":1605.183,"text":"來現在開會那要本日會議成為審查國民黨黨團台灣民眾黨黨團拟據台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案以案那我也想要補充說明一下各位委員和各位先進其實今天排審這個相關的這個這個條例呢其實並非是一時興起"},{"start":1606.384,"end":1628.813,"text":"應該是要回應一個迫在眉睫攸關國家長遠發展的結構性危機前幾天公佈我們台灣的出生一年出生人口才10.7萬創下歷史最慘的狀況而且我們國家的65歲上的人口占比在1993年的時候是7%那但是呢正是"},{"start":1629.873,"end":1652.231,"text":"進入高齡化社會但是在2018年突破了14%到了現在更要跨越20%已經進入超高齡的社會所以我想其他的國家往往都是半世紀以上才會達到這樣的狀況可是我們呢卻在短短的20年30年就達到這樣的狀況所以很多專家形容這樣子的節奏叫做老的快準備慢"},{"start":1653.232,"end":1662.685,"text":"但是我們人口老化並不是一個單一的路徑而是因為有少子化有人口萎縮的同步發生所以我們應該要來正視"},{"start":1664.284,"end":1691.846,"text":"非常嚴肅的面對這樣的問題那這也意味著我們社會需要一邊照顧這些增加醫療啦老年給付但是另外一方面也需要為我們的出生率來負責我們希望不要說今天不做明天會後悔所以今天要特別排審這樣相關的法案跟大家說明一下那我們現在介紹一下在場的委員跟列席官員在場的委員有陳昭之委員"},{"start":1695.462,"end":1719.446,"text":"還有這個我們郭國文委員還有賴慧媛委員還有林月琴委員還有我們鍾嘉賓委員還有黃秀芳委員王振旭委員還有我們這個圖權吉委員還有一位還有吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":1724.11,"end":1748.416,"text":"那介紹在場的列席官員衛生福利部部長石崇良早還有我們政務次長呂健德社會救助及社公司司長蘇昭如法規會參事陳信成社會及家庭署署長周道軍"},{"start":1752.273,"end":1778.357,"text":"護理及健康照護司副司長陳青梅國家發展委員會副主任委員高仙貴社會發展處處長張復林人力發展處處長謝嘉怡行政院主計總處公務預算處處長徐永毅"},{"start":1781.304,"end":1809.261,"text":"財政部負稅署署長宋秀琳所得稅組組長葉惠娟財產稅組組長吳君泰國庫署副署長馬曉慧庫務管理組副組長張益心債務管理組副組長邱美琪"},{"start":1811.721,"end":1836.23,"text":"金融監督管理委員會證券期貨局局長高金平勞動部勞工保險局局長白立貞勞動基金運用局副局長劉立儒教育部國民及學前教育署副署長許立堅"},{"start":1839.229,"end":1852.661,"text":"還有法務部參事汪南鈞謝謝好那現在請請程旭發言"},{"start":1856.602,"end":1870.438,"text":"主席 那麼在場的各位委員先進還有我們列席的政府機關市長官員還有辛苦的媒體記者女士先生會場的工作人員那麼剛剛聽到主席一番語重心長的談話一般在我們聯席委員會"},{"start":1871.699,"end":1898.408,"text":"主席呢當然會做今天的議程做一些提示那今天的主席憂心忡忡的提到少子化的問題讓我們覺得深有同感因此呢大家可以看得到今天雖然天氣很冷但是呢民進黨黨團我們財政跟未還的委員呢半數都到了現場表示這個議題的確召委主席排的議題的確是社會關心也是民進黨黨團非常關切的一個事情那就成如啊"},{"start":1900.109,"end":1914.899,"text":"剛剛主席所說的這個絕對不是一時興起因為相關的內容的類似的提案本黨的委員早在多年前包括在場的郭委員張雅琳委員都有提出類似的提案因此我們在這裡因為過去這是研會的會期"},{"start":1918.522,"end":1933.229,"text":"那大家研會的會期啊主要是要處理年度總預算這也是去年我想提案的民眾黨提出民眾黨們提出為什麼要研會那就是因為我們沒有辦法在去年年底之前完成總預算的審查"},{"start":1934.249,"end":1958.11,"text":"那今天我們在這個研會的會期當中那麼召委呢又特別排了這個關係到我們整個國家財政長久發展均衡發展一個重要的議題那我們在這裡呢也看到了在過去去年到現在啊有許多的禁夫惡毒的法案那麼造成社會很大的一個波瀾怎麼說呢"},{"start":1958.59,"end":1979.021,"text":"因為禁夫惡毒的結果就是在委員會沒有充分討論往往這樣的法案引起了社會的爭議引起社會的矚目之後那麼發動禁夫惡毒的黨團用馬上的把它按下不表但是始終是在這個院會裡面的伺機而動那在這裡也更造為一個建議既然這個不是一時興起"},{"start":1979.981,"end":2006.154,"text":"既然這個是關係到包括我們的國民現在將出生的未來將出生的未來18歲之後他們有沒有有一個國家幫他準備的一個未來我是建議主席這邊是不是很清楚的那我們在委員會接下來的議程不管是在國民黨黨團召委的還是在民進黨黨團召委的我們可以有一個公聽會那這個公聽會充分的來了解社會各界的意見"},{"start":2006.974,"end":2031.292,"text":"那為什麼要特別提出這樣的一個建議呢 程序上的建議呢因為成如剛剛所說的我們預算會期 特別研會是要處理總預算但是既然排了這麼重要的法案而它顯然的在這個研會會期內啊它也沒有辦法進行到往下的程序推動那在委員會目前我們所剩餘的大概算給大家聽只有4次本週這一次不算之外"},{"start":2032.287,"end":2054.88,"text":"三次是全員委員會 下週也是全員委員會只有下週一次 還有1月的最後一週三次那麼在這四次的委員會當中呢如果兩黨的 兩位召委同意的話這個案子也很重要的話建議召委可以考慮 主席可以考慮一下是不是我們在所餘的這四次的委員會如果總預算沒有辦法有任何的推進"},{"start":2055.56,"end":2071.474,"text":"那是不是一個重大的議案呢我們可以來安排公聽會來廣聽社會各界的不同意見因為立法院最近的一些問題都是在於說可能對於立法的節奏討論不足讓社會有擔憂"},{"start":2072.375,"end":2098.595,"text":"那我相信這麼重大的議題關係到未來現在0到未來18歲的年輕人他們所關心的議題還有很多家庭所關心的議題是不是我們這個今天的排審今天是先詢答那未來呢如果後續可以的話盡量的安排公聽位以上程序上的建議請主席參佐 謝謝好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員發言那請郭國勇委員"},{"start":2105.74,"end":2126.087,"text":"謝謝主席安排今天的這個法案的討論關於這個未來賬戶制既然剛剛主席有提到不是一時興起那也就不用急於一時那就側面的了解其實行政部門基本上目前也要進行一些制度上的檢討跟討論特別國發會也好 經廣協會也好還有主政的衛福部也好"},{"start":2126.767,"end":2155.555,"text":"那就衛福部內容當中基本上當初的一個利益良善的這個制度面還是有它侷限的地方我們是不是能夠等到這個官方的這個行政院的版本出來那以目前的這個衛福部的這個賬戶的精神是屬於儲蓄的精神而這個部分呢今天那個主席所排審的這個部分有投資跟儲蓄的精神而這個投資跟儲蓄的這個精神其實跟本席的提案也是那個提案發言一樣"},{"start":2156.415,"end":2182.846,"text":"本席的法案基本上不曉得本委員會速度這麼快速其實我的法案也是朝你好了我希望有機會能夠來跟國民黨跟民眾黨版本來做一個版本的比較跟對話的機會我相信不同的版本比較做一個公開的討論其實是比較好的所以如果急於一時將單一的政黨的版本把它送出委員會的話我是覺得措施的對話機會也會可能"},{"start":2184.967,"end":2205.439,"text":"也有缺一掛一落萬的一個可能就制度的內容當中如果有機會的話我們後續來做討論程序上的發言我們希望說有更多的版本不論是行政院版本也好本人的版本也好或者是藍白的版本也好我們透過不同的版本來透過智慧的火花的一個激盪然後創造一個更好的版本出來謝謝謝謝"},{"start":2211.328,"end":2215.93,"text":"感謝建議 本席會納入考量 那請賴會員委員謝謝主席 我想在這裡要跟主席那個感謝在台灣未來帳戶的這個特別條例的一個草案的一個探討其實深入我那個郭公文委員 鍾嘉斌委員那個所有的一個建議"},{"start":2237.137,"end":2241.679,"text":"我本人也給予這個呼籲因為其實這個政府要花4500億來推動這一項法案我們必須要嚴肅的去面對到底這一筆錢有沒有辦法解決就是說家長的藍莓之急還是說有辦法解決這個少子化"},{"start":2256.025,"end":2272.462,"text":"那有投資有儲蓄這是一部非常好的一個那個法律那我們應該是有更多的一個機會可以共同的來探討那陳儒就是說今天我們所有的一個排案顯然這個排審的這個案例"},{"start":2275.084,"end":2286.95,"text":"好像就只有這個民眾黨跟那個國民黨的一個提案是不是有機會我們可以看到更多的一個提案大家共同的來探討以上謝謝主席好謝謝請請張阿玲委員發言"},{"start":2302.21,"end":2316.757,"text":"謝謝主席我想就是因為其實在這個版本上面其實我從去年3月就一直跟行政院這邊有在討論去年年底的時候院長其實也都已經回覆願意來去支持擴大來辦理那我是一直在想就是說"},{"start":2318.037,"end":2337.275,"text":"國民黨民眾黨當然一起來為兒童好我覺得是一件好的事情願意來跟進這也是一件好事但是呢我覺得在這個法案上面的審查上面應該要來仔細的討論為什麼我們去年3月就提出來一直到11月才提出完整的一個質詢呢最主要是因為我們在跟整個團體一直在陸續收納意見"},{"start":2339.096,"end":2357.944,"text":"所以我想從去年我們在講兒家屬到現在我們也都是希望可以實際的來審查來回應第一線的聲音所以我也希望說因為像這個題目家福也都做了蠻久的時間了家福基金會我想我也希望主席可以一起來辦四場公聽會"},{"start":2359.264,"end":2374.994,"text":"我們可以廣納大家的意見來確保我們從財政從社政上面都能夠真正的回應到我們的初心回應到我們的初心去照顧我們的小孩照顧我們的家長支持我們的家長這才是我們做這個政策的本意這才是我們做這個"},{"start":2376.415,"end":2399.863,"text":"兒少帳戶的一個本意所以我是希望說主席我們今天在審查上面我們是不是就是先進行詢答我們來看看這個衛福部的態度之後我們來辦公聽會讓公聽會讓各種不同的意見都能夠來了解因為像現在我們今天要審查的這個條例上面雖然說包裝是在一個要給孩子公平的起跑險但是我必須要說現在這個條"},{"start":2402.626,"end":2417.268,"text":"這個條案上面在財政上在公平上在實務上都存在高度的風險我自己看這個法案因為我畢竟做了一年的研究一年以上的研究我們其實現在有新加坡的影子也有美國的影子也有英國的影子"},{"start":2417.688,"end":2444.765,"text":"是一個非常大雜匯的一個法案那這個其實影響非常大因為有些國家他們都只有各取一部分為什麼因為他們還是要考量一個延續性因為像英國一開始也有像類似這樣子的一個法案但是他後來做不下去了他停下來了所以如果我們要持續的穩定的來去支持我們每一個孩子出生都有這樣子的一個東西的話這樣子的一個賬戶的話那我們就應該要更審慎的評估才能夠在大家跨黨"},{"start":2445.726,"end":2465.792,"text":"朝野一起的努力之下真正的回應到我們的孩子我們的家庭身上因為我一直是從兒少團體出來的所以我非常非常看重這件事情所以我希望我也要懇請我們的國民黨的更民眾的委員好大家一起來務實的審查理性的審查好好的討論因為這都是好的事謝謝好謝謝謝謝張艾玲委員發言請林德福委員持續發言"},{"start":2490.559,"end":2510.209,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席還有與會各列席官員還有各位同仁我想目前我們存在的少子化的問題本席認為整個台灣未來帳戶特別條例的草案除了可以減輕整個父母親養育兒女的負擔更可以給18歲"},{"start":2512.31,"end":2538.712,"text":"青年朋友第一桶金面對未來的挑戰有更多元的選擇一舉兩得不論是用於職業的訓練進修甚至於創業本席認為大方向出發點絕對是利益良善像美國 英國甚至於加拿大 新加坡他們都有類似方案可以供我們來學習也希望說行政部門"},{"start":2539.873,"end":2563.911,"text":"你們不要預設立場不要說只有看顏色黨派就來加以各方面的批評因為行政部門更應該要及時廣益只要有助於改善少子化的做法都應該要納入考量因為你像去年我們總共出生率現在只有到十萬七千多人"},{"start":2566.217,"end":2584.93,"text":"我相信朝野溝通形成一個政策後權力來推動主要就是我們現在面臨到生不如死真的因為甚至於今年出生率會更低我相信這是擺在眼前的事實過去農業社會一年四十幾萬人現在"},{"start":2587.699,"end":2613.991,"text":"只有25%甚至於不到我相信今年會更少所以說我們應該未雨綢繆那希望我們草野大家共同來努力主要我們是解決問題那讓家長的負擔能夠更輕我相信我們大家一定要共同來面對以上 謝謝謝謝林德福委員發言林岳勤委員"},{"start":2625.03,"end":2650.038,"text":"利益良善的政策都很好可是如果沒有規劃好就會是一場災難為什麼這樣講呢因為我看到草案的提案說明要做到第一條就講說為因應少子女化的挑戰跟跨世代貧富差距跟要協助兒少累積發展性資本還要落實人才培育發展平權"},{"start":2651.238,"end":2669.797,"text":"还要保障其成年后的教育跟创业资源这么样多的目标单一的一个只要存进去就可以解决吗相同的就是说我们的少子化的政策花了1000亿有做额托有做生育的一些补助和教育"},{"start":2670.157,"end":2698.934,"text":"它事实上是从头包到尾可是今天如果单纯这样的一个账户就要花掉这样子的钱那到底我们要回应的是什么因为如果我们自己细看就会知道今天国民党提出来的原用的各国的投资账户那大概只有新加坡是比较是针对鼓励生育那今天国民党的提出来的是说要先因应少子少子女化的挑战"},{"start":2699.995,"end":2723.508,"text":"如果只有錢就可以解決的話那就不會這麼簡單了今天少子女化有非常多的因素在所以要各方各面的去政策去就像我們原來提出來少子女化政策裡面有各種的一個對應的策略甚至講到說今天我們應該要來解決跨世代的貧窮差距不用跨世代"},{"start":2724.548,"end":2736.786,"text":"只要一時時下去就現在馬上就貧富差距我覺得這樣的條文裡面不是所謂我們過去在講很多條文最好排富可是我覺得這樣條文下去叫做排貧"},{"start":2738.689,"end":2756.878,"text":"就會讓貧困的人越貧困為什麼 原來我們執行的過去我們把它俗稱叫做兒童脫貧帳戶也就是現在政府在推動的兒童及少年未來教育與發展帳戶這個帳戶事實上是讓弱勢的家庭能夠"},{"start":2758.078,"end":2774.493,"text":"政府一對一 一比一的補助讓他們未來真的有第一桶金如果都弄得一樣的時候那現在就馬上讓他們還是在貧窮的困境裡面去所以到底要解決是什麼怎麼會是講說要解決跨世代的"},{"start":2775.854,"end":2803.566,"text":"負差距沒有不用跨世代我覺得現在馬上就立即面對到所以韓國的這個他們的也事實上是針對社會救助對低收入家庭的支持所以如果國民黨提供的也就是說有提到韓國那一樣他也是社會救助的一環那加拿大是鼓勵家庭為子女高等教育來儲蓄那如果講到這個台灣也有在做啊從我們的非營利幼兒園公立幼兒園"},{"start":2804.526,"end":2819.285,"text":"甚至我們的准工在一直進入到大學的時候有學費補助還有租屋的貼補這些為什麼要整個配套去做不是單一的我們很擔心的是說只會讓有錢的更有錢"},{"start":2820.646,"end":2847.2,"text":"今天政府在資源有限的時候不是要優先照顧弱勢嗎所有的政策都是一種選擇如果我們選了A就會影響到B那我最擔心最害怕的是影響到弱勢我最擔心最害怕的是這些本來社會福利要照顧的人反而受到影響這不會是件好事所以我認為應該是不是要好好的討論如果"},{"start":2847.76,"end":2867.374,"text":"草案說明裡邊舉的很多國家甚至英國已經事實上是因為財政關係沒有辦法繼續下去可不可以好好討論弄一個好的法來真的才是服國利民而不是變成是一場災難那真正弱勢沒有照顧到反而是加強更富有的人這我不樂見 以上"},{"start":2870.065,"end":2893.527,"text":"謝謝我想我補充說明一下各位委員都很緊張我們大家都很緊張貧富差距這10年已經變成從75倍變150倍我們大家也很緊張少子化但是大家也很緊張好像今天就一定會主條我跟大家報告一下今天大家有很多意見發言等一下質詢的時候都可以好好講那今天就選讀完條例就好沒有要主條審查"},{"start":2895.939,"end":2908.619,"text":"我本席會納入考量喔 好不好本席會納入考量 謝謝本席會納入考量請 剛剛是建國召委嗎 還是是誰修方委員先"},{"start":2919.526,"end":2932.826,"text":"謝謝 針對今天這個台灣未來賬戶我相信很多委員都非常的關心那也非常多的委員在去年的時候就有針對這一部分有做質詢那雅玲議員還有郭國文委員"},{"start":2933.667,"end":2948.36,"text":"雅琳委員還有郭國文委員他們也有提案所以我希望就是說是不是主席可以列入就是說未來我們是不是也要開公聽會那廣納所有這個學者專家的一個意見"},{"start":2949.881,"end":2968.332,"text":"另外剛剛主席有說這個台灣未來賬戶是為了因應少子化那我覺得說少子化的這個議題不是錢可以解決的那當然這個也是一個選項那我希望就是說不論是我們的衛福部或其他"},{"start":2969.533,"end":2988.643,"text":"這個單位應該針對這個少子女化的這個議題應該有更周延的一些因應的措施因為我在上禮拜的時候我有特別質詢過我們的這個這個時部長就是針對少子女化去年已經剩下十萬七千名的這個新生兒那從"},{"start":2991.244,"end":3012.274,"text":"从七八年前差不多20万到现在整个断崖式的人口减少我觉得这真的是对整个国家的竞争力来讲真的是会影响非常的大我希望说针对今天国民党跟民众党所提出来的台湾未来账户我觉得这个真的也是非常重要"},{"start":3013.034,"end":3040.85,"text":"對於我們的這個從小朋友然後一直到這個18歲能夠給他一桶金我覺得這個也是真的非常重要可是需要各部會還有所有的專家學者大家一起來討論那我們有看到國外的這個例子也有失敗的例子那我們希望就是說這個帳戶未來開下去之後是能夠真的是成功而且是長長久久的所以我希望主席今天應該"},{"start":3042.611,"end":3063.345,"text":"刚刚主席有特别提到就是说不会出委员会嘛那我们希望说也可以开公听会广纳各界的一个意见那让这个账户台湾未来账户真的是可长可久而不是说未来我们看到这个条文里面有针对"},{"start":3064.125,"end":3076.837,"text":"可能跟現在這個台股就是說由這個勞保基金這邊一起來這個操作那看到台股現在的整個表現非常的亮眼那也有可能這個因為經濟"},{"start":3079.719,"end":3107.78,"text":"不是永久都是這麼好啊也可能會碰到有一些這個危機的時候那怎麼讓這個賬戶能夠可長可久所以我希望主席今天除了這個聽大家的意見之外我希望說未來能夠辦公廳會好謝謝謝謝黃秀芳委員發言要那個還是我們要登記一下這個程序 請請請我是說大家後面還是最後一位好不好"},{"start":3110.095,"end":3138.003,"text":"還有建國召委謝謝主席我想主席也非常的迫切想要解決臺灣重要的問題這個大家都很清楚所以今天很高興有這個時間跟大家來討論在程序上我們先確認一下因為基本上我們還是希望可以召開公聽會因為這個議題真的非常非常的大對將來的影響會非常的久遠"},{"start":3138.703,"end":3165.352,"text":"所以如果能夠透過公聽的方式來召集更多更廣大這個全體國民的意見還有當然各位委員的意見應該希望能夠讓這樣的法案可以經過充分討論以後再進入到主條我想剛剛主席已經很明確的跟大家做了這個事情那其實我們也擔心在這個法案裡面基本上會在未來的13年編列總預算的經費是到達4500億"},{"start":3167.333,"end":3182.521,"text":"而且這個初始的資金就要1130億那每年還要266億所以這樣的設計能是不是對於我們這個財政紀律法上面的這個法尊需要也要同時的去了解跟注意"},{"start":3183.081,"end":3204.113,"text":"那我們其實也知道目前的少子化對策計畫裡面已經有編列相當多的一些費用在上面所以這樣會不會造成其他的排擠效應那再加上我們法案中裡面有提到這個賬戶會的希望是用在教育就業還有這個職業等等的這些幫助甚至購屋啊租屋那行政機關"},{"start":3205.214,"end":3226.375,"text":"也希望有更多元的這個機關能夠在現場來回應這些需求所以我們也期待在今天的這個諮詢答詢裡面也把這些議題都能夠納進來那同時民間對於少子化的對策有很多的想法所以期待我們希望能夠有更多元的聲音透過公聽會"},{"start":3227.756,"end":3236.439,"text":"讓這些聲音都能夠納到未來在做這個主條法案審查過程當中能夠有更完整的一些呈現以上謝謝主席謝謝那謝謝王正旭委員發言請劉建國召委發言"},{"start":3253.337,"end":3274.832,"text":"好 還是要謝謝昭偉今天來排這個這樣的一個法案的一個審查那我只是想要再度的做一個說明跟這個歷史背景的喚醒大家的記憶應該要訂一部新的法律那基本上明明知道的事情太多太多我用這樣來隱喻"},{"start":3276.311,"end":3304.301,"text":"我們兒童的專委我們用了六次委員會然後是很冗長的讓大家有充分發援的這樣一個機會那一樣關心到全國的兒童的另外這個議題來講那我當然也期待在我這邊可以思考是不是有這樣再多召開幾次的公聽會讓大家像今天有比較充分討論的這樣的一個時間跟空間這是第一點"},{"start":3304.901,"end":3322.709,"text":"那第二點那火力的定力基本上就是要保障要定制度然後更要極盡公平那我們必須要把過去的歷史背景再跟各位來做一個說明剛剛這個張文有特別提到這個兒童與少年"},{"start":3323.489,"end":3338.121,"text":"這個教育未來的這個帳戶這個條例其實當時的歷史背景是在104年的時候起心動念我算是主題人之一然後跟當時的衛福部相關的官員我相信現場應該還有人到現在都還在還沒有離開 對然後討論多久 討論足足是38個月"},{"start":3347.869,"end":3371.173,"text":"104年開始討論然後一直到107年的5月才三讀完成然後要照顧的對象當時羅列很清楚第一就是低收與中低收入戶還有長期安置超過兩年以上的這些我們要照顧的兒童及少年那你看我們針對這個部分就只有針對這個部分我們就討論足足38個月"},{"start":3377.062,"end":3381.848,"text":"那今天我們是要針對全國的兒童全國的兒少這樣的一個家庭"},{"start":3382.472,"end":3407.462,"text":"那絕對沒有辦法急救張的然後把這樣的法律就可以訂出來那相對的一樣道理我們現在要照顧全國的兒童的情況之下我們有現金的這個兒少的未來發展帳戶是針對我剛剛特別提到就是低收入戶中低收入還有殘疾安置的這樣的一個兒童的對象的時候那這部法律要怎麼處理"},{"start":3408.995,"end":3437.758,"text":"那我們新的國民黨團跟民眾黨團所提出來的版本有沒有把這一個部分攘換在這裡面我剛剛是稍微看一下因為法條我們這個法條沒有很多啦 坦白講應該是20多條並沒有去特別處理到這一塊那我們不可能去制定一個新的法律反而去造成讓台灣社會覺得這是一個階級法律這是一個歧視法律這是一個對立法律這是一個相對剝奪的法律"},{"start":3440.631,"end":3460.3,"text":"這個我想我們當國會議員的 我們很難承受這樣的事情所以在前幾天 不管什麼樣的法案在審查當有朋友在問 還是媒體在問 我都特別提到說我們做個國會議員 修一條法 或是修一本法律 修了後 不一定會萬事如風"},{"start":3462.554,"end":3472.078,"text":"那修一條去頂達就 死了啦 遺臭萬年啦大家記得說那時候人家修的啦 人家修到歷歷落落就對了就算又蓋過藥 我們也記得說中東市就什麼人家修不對的啦那名 英文的庫國內都可以查得到就馬上連結到那條法條"},{"start":3482.222,"end":3500.794,"text":"所以當我們要照顧全國的兒童過程裡面我覺得非常棒這方向很正確但是我們有既有的現有的法律在那個地方那我們現在法律沒有去處理既有的法律這個馬上就有階級的區分了這個馬上就有衝突矛盾"},{"start":3501.812,"end":3519.118,"text":"所以我在這邊也要請衛福部部長這邊還有相關全職的單位這事情要有相關的對岸也要有相關的一個思考那我們當然希望可以透過更多的這樣一個討論衛環委員會一直以來一直以來都不是上面的人在決定什麼事情"},{"start":3520.138,"end":3540.909,"text":"就可以讓我們未完委員會的意志去受到挑戰跟變動了所以我們都希望可以有更多充分討論的時間然後讓法律可以更加的精準化然後更加趨於這樣的我們追求的公平然後保障更多需要我們要保障的我們要保障台灣的未來我們要保障我們小朋友"},{"start":3541.569,"end":3564.821,"text":"可以受到更多這樣的照顧我們要保障我們的出生率可以突破這個不要成為世界島嶼第一名的情況之下我想這個充分討論絕對是有其必要所以在這邊臨陳可能再度建議我們召委今天這麼有心來把這樣的案排進去那也讓其他委員的版本可以進來然後也可以透過公聽會可以大家充分的表達相關的意見從很多的面向來討論甚至有剛剛特別提到兒少這個"},{"start":3570.284,"end":3586.33,"text":"執行多年的形式幼年兒少專戶的這個條例可以大家一併來共同來做對比然後相關的討論甚至達到融合的階段然後讓這些小朋友可以有更好的這樣的公平的制度來予以保障好 謝謝"},{"start":3587.731,"end":3607.708,"text":"謝謝劉建國召委那我還是補充說明一下我想大家今天來這裡都很緊張那很緊張我們的少子化沒有你先聽我講完都很緊張我們的少子化很緊張我們的貧富差距我們都想要一起面對來解決但是你們不用緊張我今天要送出委員會這樣可以嗎好好好謝謝就"},{"start":3613.84,"end":3619.64,"text":"好我們進行下一個環節現在請陳昭資委員代表說明提案要旨時間兩分鐘"},{"start":3625.219,"end":3642.583,"text":"主席不能只有兩分鐘主席各位同事還有各位美女朋友我代表國民黨黨團跟民眾黨團的共同提案來做出提案說明那台灣未來帳戶特別條例這個草案的核心原因當然是大家理解台灣正面臨全球總生育率第一名的這個嚴厲挑戰"},{"start":3644.684,"end":3646.706,"text":"這個倒數第一名的嚴厲挑戰少子化不單是人口問題而且它更是攸關產業的勞動力經濟成長還有社會穩定的一個國安問題我們必須誠實面對過去的政策都偏向即時津貼的補助"},{"start":3661.036,"end":3664.677,"text":"雖然能夠短期的止痛卻很難幫助孩子建立長期的資產的累積的軌道也沒有辦法讓年輕的家庭對孩子未來的教育 職癌與生活有穩定的期待所以這部法案是要把思維從福利"},{"start":3678.742,"end":3703.42,"text":"提升到投資下一代用制度化可持續的一個方式給孩子更公平的起跑點在制度設計方面本草案建立台灣未來帳戶制度政府在孩子出生的時候建立個人帳戶啟動經為開立後一第一年撥入五萬元那撥補款的部分是第二年到第十二歲為止每年撥入一萬元同時也鼓勵家庭自存"},{"start":3704.12,"end":3713.771,"text":"甚至是企業來共同參與家庭可以用孩子的名義自存企業雇主也可以用透過贊助款共同投入搭配這個稅賦的誘因讓國家家庭企業成為共同投資下一代的三支柱"},{"start":3720.439,"end":3723.681,"text":"那對象範圍本條例適用對象民定為102年9月2日以後出生未滿12歲在我國境內有住所並符合年度居住滿183天的國民讓政策資源有明確的範圍也能夠跟稅制還有居住認定接軌第三個是資金運用方面我們非常重視財務的這個穩健跟風險的內容我們民定基金的運用是以安全穩健為原則投資標的"},{"start":3750.799,"end":3770.168,"text":"限於國內股票及債券或合格受益憑證等並要求要有建立內控風險管理 績效評估跟資訊透明送立法院備查很重要的 張護資金在孩子滿18歲以前不得提前提領確保長期的複利效果"},{"start":3771.075,"end":3788.265,"text":"成年後清零也不是想花就花喔而是限定在就學就業職業訓練創業購屋自備款以及租屋費用等人生關鍵時段讓這一筆資源真正成為向上流動力量在執行面呢收支保管業務要委託"},{"start":3789.586,"end":3798.632,"text":"勞保局來辦理運用管理則是委託勞動基金運用局那必要時委託金融機構來經營降低另起爐灶的成本而且來承接大型基金長期管理的經驗為了保障參與者草案也明定基金監理會要成立由政府機關代表開戶人代表專家學者及相關團體代表來組成強化治理跟監督此外很重要的"},{"start":3820.047,"end":3835.42,"text":"帳戶的結餘金額不計入家庭總收入或財產也不得作為未來抵銷扣腰擔保或強制執行的標的避免孩子他的未來的資產被侵蝕要確保這個本制度的目的要落實"},{"start":3836.521,"end":3858.071,"text":"那財務規模方面本草案以13年為期所需經費上限為新台幣4500億以特別預算的方式來分期籌編審議要求行政院於這個條例生效後一個月內將特別預算案送到立法院來審議確保國會監督跟程序的正當少子女化的挑戰"},{"start":3858.991,"end":3872.598,"text":"不會因為一年一筆這個補助就消失了我們要的是一套讓孩子長大後真正用得到的制度文件投資長期累積用途明確監督完善這部台灣未來帳戶特別條例的草案就是用制度化去資產的支持用來修補世代的這個"},{"start":3881.803,"end":3892.749,"text":"落差減輕育兒的負擔從孩子的出生那一刻開始我們一起就來投資國家未來的競爭力敬請各位同事給予支持謝謝謝謝陳昭之委員說明那接下來請衛福部時部長說明時間5分鐘"},{"start":3907.456,"end":3932.067,"text":"主席還有各位委員那麼面對我國少子女的嚴峻挑戰那麼行政院在107年合訂了這個我國少子女化對策計畫那麼以0到6歲國家一起養來結合各部會的資源推動了幼兒的全面照顧友善家庭的就業職場兒童健康"},{"start":3932.907,"end":3953.472,"text":"以保全域保護還有友善生養的相關配套是他對策那麼來減減輕了這個家庭的育兒負擔那麼包含了生育的補助包含了育兒托育的津貼那麼也包含了對於這個教育的補助等等"},{"start":3954.052,"end":3972.791,"text":"来减轻年轻父母的生养的经济负担一共从107年到114年间共编列了5931.18亿平均对每一个有0到6岁的家庭补助了120到180万不等"},{"start":3976.514,"end":3994.44,"text":"那麼至於呢在2017年開始呢那麼針對弱勢家庭的兒童則推出了兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶主要在幫助低收入戶中低收入戶的孩子以及有長期安置的兒少那麼以"},{"start":3995.661,"end":4012.155,"text":"這個共同存款的概念1比1的提撥為兒童及少年設立個人的專屬帳戶那麼在他年滿18歲的時候最高可存到54萬那麼這個政策8年多來已經累積開戶人數39000餘人那麼是適用對象的65%累積金額也已達32億那麼"},{"start":4021.283,"end":4036.559,"text":"面對少子女化所帶來的結構性的挑戰那麼今天大院提出了台灣未來帳戶特別條例的草案那麼本部認為那麼所有的政策都是一個選擇"},{"start":4037.62,"end":4062.658,"text":"政策的關鍵在於資源怎麼用 先照顧誰需要思考規劃 除了對經濟弱勢的兒少我們應該優先來思考如何精進 更多的支持而對於一般兒少的支持 也必須考慮到整個制度的設計跟它的政策的效果"},{"start":4063.518,"end":4081.409,"text":"本部希望能夠秉持著全生命歷程 社會投資的視角從生育 從養育 從教育 從居住 從職場的支持等多方面來打造更友善的成家與育兒的環境"},{"start":4083.47,"end":4112.61,"text":"今年115年行政院也已經核定我國少子女化對策計畫2.0從鼓勵青年生育有感減輕育兒負擔友善職場的生生不息及支持婚姻家庭的穩定居住政策強化孕產婦兒童照護等也提出了新的行政措施也希望大院能夠支持審查預算讓我們能夠盡快的開始來推動"},{"start":4113.31,"end":4121.781,"text":"那麼以上就本次的這個條例的草案做以上的說明再請各位委員給予指教 謝謝"},{"start":4128.148,"end":4150.242,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答做一下宣告本聯席會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘那10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理那暫定10點30分休息10分鐘"},{"start":4152.563,"end":4158.265,"text":"那以往例審查法案不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭資委員發言謝謝主席主席有請石部長請因為石部長他好久有另外有一個會議他有跟我們本席先請假他等一下那裡報告完會再回來所以您可能要這樣嗎"},{"start":4183.493,"end":4206.206,"text":"因為他有先跟本席辦公室說誰能代表呢次長 呂次長他不足代表重要的議題"},{"start":4212.546,"end":4221.996,"text":"那麼重要的議題不能部長不在來我們先休息10分鐘好了好不好 謝謝主席"},{"start":4247.056,"end":4265.658,"text":"還是你要換一下順序嗎這麼重要的質詢 這麼重要的議題他去行政院議員會報告他行政院 立法院是監督行政院的我們現在把他留住 為什麼留住"},{"start":4277.159,"end":4302.835,"text":"民進黨的立法 民進黨的立委議員不曉得在都會不會啊講話吧講自己的就好了要不要換一下因為他要換隊要與自由我老人跟你們看好不好我老 我跟你們看我跟你們講一齊的一齊的 會不會賠一賠啊因為我們憑規啊"},{"start":4320.659,"end":4342.685,"text":"那個沒什麼問題啦沒什麼問題啊那 重要 但是講實在話 他們一顆一顆都不肯講沒有 其他誰肯 行政院都不肯對啊 他們都不肯我們是監督單位那委員會開喔 讓你講 部長要留在這裡不能訪問人家是啊 因為他說春節要到 他要做這個"},{"start":4353.814,"end":4371.087,"text":"你們在現場擺一點調教就好"},{"start":4456.472,"end":4474.096,"text":"好那我們繼續開會那先請林德福委員詢答好謝謝謝謝主席呃是請到理事長還有呃護歲署啊宋署長有請理事長跟宋署長"},{"start":4477.485,"end":4501.187,"text":"委員早安 市長你好 委員早早早 我要講 因為少子化的問題我相信是 現在是 大家都很清楚那一年一年延減 而且很嚴重那我相信 台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案這個 要是說 以目前來看"},{"start":4502.807,"end":4513.544,"text":"除了可以減輕父母養育兒女的負擔更可以給18歲這個青年有第一桶金來面對未來的挑戰能夠有更多元的選擇一舉兩得"},{"start":4517.543,"end":4534.768,"text":"用於未來反正是職業訓練進修創業等等我認為都應該是利益良善那包括我們現在美國英國加拿大新加坡他們也都有這些方案可以來供我們學習那個市長你認不認同"},{"start":4536.795,"end":4552.38,"text":"報告委員我想非常感佩委員對於這個問題的關心我想少子女化確實是現在我們的國安問題我們應該要來嚴肅面對我想我們都只要有好的政策我們都願意來聆聽認不認同報告委員因為"},{"start":4557.918,"end":4572.871,"text":"就是剛剛委員有提到英國的例子英國在2005年開辦之後出現了一個問題2011年就停辦所以這裡面有兩個問題第一個就是說裁員必須要先確定我想這是一個有前軀之鑑"},{"start":4573.772,"end":4592.029,"text":"另外第二個就是說這裡面我們也不希望就是說倉促上路之後造成這一個保護這一個中斷像英國就是後來2011年中斷所以我想這個整個就是利益良善我想我們都樂見其成可是就是說相關的配套可能要更加小心其實"},{"start":4592.99,"end":4610.544,"text":"我认为说这个里面在修法内容里面还可以去调这个要是说我们整个国家像过去超增每一年都那么多而且几年下来一兆八千多亿所以说那时候这个在野党才要求说"},{"start":4611.385,"end":4631.245,"text":"每個人就是普發一萬那我認為說當然我後面還會再問到我認為說你認不認同這樣的做法嘛你不敢答還不敢答 照理講是你就不要承諾就由部長來就好啦 對不對"},{"start":4632.736,"end":4660.529,"text":"因為臺灣未來的整個帳戶特別條例草案要是順利的話當然希望能夠這個各界都來共襄盛舉引入更多的資源來這個臺灣未來帳戶的基金共同來照顧我們的下一代因為現在少子化很嚴重去年才出生率才十萬七千多人是沒錯今年會更少對不對那特別條例第26條有提到主管機關"},{"start":4661.69,"end":4687.658,"text":"得接受可以接受各界的捐款用於台灣未來賬戶基金甚至於就是專款專用那我請問那個宋署長如果一條例草案假設未來條文三讀通過台積電要是有捐款到台灣未來賬戶裡面我們不管說一千萬兩千萬一億兩億是否可以全額來抵稅可不可以"},{"start":4688.058,"end":4701.794,"text":"報告委員 如果這個基金本身是政府的專戶就相當於對政府捐贈這目前所設的36條規定他就可以全額列報捐贈費用捐贈多少就抵稅多少如果是對政府的話"},{"start":4702.975,"end":4731.577,"text":"当然就是这样子那这个底税有没有这个金额的上限如果对政府没有金额上限所以说这个就是很好的一个方式因为有很多甚至于这个连战他的夫人他说他要把他自己的财产全部都要捐出去他在生日的时候全部就这样宣布你说其实要捐的人还是很多啦"},{"start":4732.177,"end":4752.347,"text":"並不是沒有以這個勞保基金109到113年度近5年來整個平均的績效為例收益率平均差不多8.94%最新一次勞保基金績效的公告114年11月底收益率來達到13.41%此外還有114年11月底這個勞保基金這個"},{"start":4760.419,"end":4782.47,"text":"收益率也有13.697從上述這些資料來看政府基金投資報酬率平均都是6%以上似乎有很高機率可以達成那本席理解說整個投資當然有高有低景氣起起伏伏那我請問那個理事長"},{"start":4783.53,"end":4811.59,"text":"对于政府基金投资报酬率平均每年6%以上是不是可能的任务还是稳健操作都可以达到目标您的看法呢包委员当然就是陈主委员刚刚所说的这个投资都有风险高高低低最近当然台股当然容紧但是这个我们也不敢完全确保所以我想还是要从比较长期稳健的角度来思考"},{"start":4812.659,"end":4835.966,"text":"因此這個市長是依照特別條例草案計畫第一筆資金五萬元政府每年每人存一萬元到十二歲以百分之六報酬率來計算十八歲後預估整個資金將來可以到三十三點九萬那可用於這個青年的就學就業職業訓練創業購屋自備款等等"},{"start":4839.987,"end":4851.324,"text":"那我請問勞動部對於上述這個投資報酬估算是否會認為目標難以達成還是怎麼樣勞動部今天有沒有人來"},{"start":4861.719,"end":4880.97,"text":"主席 還有跟委員回答一下其實我們基金運用在投資上其實我們長期穩健的所以非常感謝委員剛剛對我們的肯定其實我們在長期的目標是有達到委員剛剛提到的有達到嘛 對啊要是照這樣操作其實也操作得很好可以肯定那要是有這樣的報酬我認為說其實"},{"start":4885.272,"end":4908.859,"text":"從過去幾年下來你們的整個基金的操作運作我認為都很好而且也受到我們很多勞工朋友的肯定對不對所以說整個台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案希望能透過專戶的設立來減輕整個父母的壓力投資我們的下一代與青年的未來以減緩子女"},{"start":4912.491,"end":4936.21,"text":"這個少子女化的整個情況那投資台灣未來的人才之培育如果開戶人喪失我國國籍那個次長開戶人喪失我國國籍本身認為自然不具有這個提領結親由國家補助啟動金來撥補款以及其他收益的資格你的看法呢"},{"start":4937.216,"end":4942.706,"text":"是 我那個也是尊重委員的一個意見我覺得這個尊重委員的意見 謝謝我認為你一點擔當都沒有"},{"start":4945.253,"end":4969.18,"text":"今天是這個案子過才有啊對不對 案子沒有過根本一點但我是認為你一個身為一個次長喔很多事情你竟然要承擔部長留下來給你來做詢答你就是本身要具有說我今天yes no分得很清楚然後這個案子過我們就照這樣做"},{"start":4970.2,"end":4996.901,"text":"这个才是担当嘛我们是针对问题探讨问题怎么去解决问题嘛对不对现在少子化的问题确实是存在啊没错不然的话怎么会提这个问题呢对不对提这个法案呢所以说本席认为如果开户人在未成年期间如果犯刑案刑事案件等等比如涉及杀人啦患毒啦诈欺啦性侵等等重大刑案制止"},{"start":4997.541,"end":5015.688,"text":"的後續也不應該享有政府補助的資源這樣你認不認同不認同還是不敢答我們認知到也尊重委員的意見對啦你什麼都不敢你等於是有跟沒有一樣好啦我就不問了啦謝謝非常感謝委員的指教謝謝謝謝林德福委員發言接下來請賴會員委員"},{"start":5031.525,"end":5041.424,"text":"好謝謝主席那個請次長李建德次長還有就是護稅署宋署長還有我們勞動部保險局那個白局長"},{"start":5043.894,"end":5060.553,"text":"三位早安我想我們今天針對的就是台灣未來賬戶的特別條例的草案大家共同來討論少子化是國家的一個危機這一點其實大家基本上都有共識了"},{"start":5061.474,"end":5081.706,"text":"可是當政府要花4500億的納稅來推動這個法案的時候我想我們必須要嚴肅的去檢驗這筆錢到底有沒有辦法解決少子化這筆錢是不是會是又是打造一個社會不公的一個溫床"},{"start":5082.366,"end":5098.538,"text":"你要知道有錢的人你請他儲蓄這個是一個好事沒有錢的人你讓他去儲蓄這是一個罪惡牛奶跟麵包是窮人最重要的一個生活上他的必需品"},{"start":5099.418,"end":5127.948,"text":"戶人要的不是只有牛奶麵包他要的是金幣是金幣所以我在這裡是不是先跟次長請教一下就是說在這個針對的就是未來帳戶的這個特別條例你制度的一個設計跟政策目標有沒有一致還有就是說這個長期累積下來的一個機制是不是可以及時回應這個少子化的一個挑戰來 那個次長你那個儘量唱首一言"},{"start":5128.488,"end":5147.229,"text":"非常感谢赖委员对于这个问题的关系非常佩服委员对这个问题的看法我想分三个部分第一个少子女化的成因我跟委员还有各位报告population studies这个是人口学第一集的2000年就有一篇非常重要的论文OECD国家18国他们发现"},{"start":5148.03,"end":5166.648,"text":"少子女化的一個解決對策是一個多元的一個策略跟多元的問題那麼在這裡面根據多元的問題多元的複雜成因所以要有一個整個相關的一個政策配套那這裡面大概有四個最重要的一個政策第一個應該是性別平等"},{"start":5167.028,"end":5191.829,"text":"第二個是家庭工作平等第三應該是有關於公托托育第四最後才是育兒津貼我想這個是一個多元的一個組合那這個也是我們少子女化計畫從107年開始到我們現在我們也已經提出一個2.0的計畫到大院我們的一個基本的精神我想大家都知道這個是一個複雜的問題所以我們也必須要有一個整個有效率的策略那但跟委員報告"},{"start":5192.85,"end":5204.722,"text":"但是在這樣的一個考量之下我恐怕必須要說我們現在目前所提出的這一個條例當然大家都希望能夠共同來解決少子女化的問題但是恐怕"},{"start":5206.605,"end":5225.155,"text":"恐怕會有偏食的問題會有偏食的問題林瑞琴委員剛剛也有提到就是說政策就是一個選擇你今天選擇A可能會排斥B如果今天我們有一個非常非常充足的財源那當然沒有問題那現在目前就是說你是獨孤一位有可能就排擠到我們現在目前現有的一個"},{"start":5227.477,"end":5251.234,"text":"公托的一个推动还有比如说相关的一个策略所以这恐怕是第二个问题第三个就沉入刚刚委员所说的其实对于我们现在目前很多很多育儿父母来说其实最重要事实上是面包跟牛奶你现在孩子你要先起来所以我们现在政府我们现在推设的基本上就是要想方设法来降低他们的负担我如果委员"},{"start":5251.554,"end":5266.065,"text":"那針對著延後幾戶在這一個行政上的一個設計我想聽聽衛福部的說法你認為說這個延後幾戶有機會提升那個現在的生意力的增加嗎多少貢獻"},{"start":5267.126,"end":5280.556,"text":"報告委員我是研究人口政策跟福利政策我跟委員報告我在目前國際的期刊我沒有看到一篇有關於這方面的研究當然就是說但是有關於儲蓄賬戶這個最主要是為了要減貧但是"},{"start":5287.341,"end":5313.158,"text":"你說用這些來提升生育率這個我是覺得恐怕不可以委員 容許我我想在這裡我們必須要去正視就是在網路上網路上有很多就是說比較針對的一個投資的網紅他有特別講到他竟然是講說不生小孩是存款的一個寬備不生小孩你的財富會更自由"},{"start":5314.699,"end":5337.271,"text":"很多的年輕人其實慢慢的會受影響說小孩子是一個護資產但回到根本生不生小孩對他們有什麼樣的一個好處我想這是一個很大的一個學問所以你又是這一方面的專家我們希望你可以提供更多的一個資訊給我們倒是我想問一下我們護稅署署長就是說"},{"start":5339.733,"end":5366.175,"text":"這個租稅的公平行政院是不是可以接受集平計戶的這樣的一個政策你年存10萬然後想那個綜合所得稅的扣除額他18歲提領了數百萬那可是對於窮人來講的話生活會他已經透支了他沒有辦法去儲蓄了他也更沒有辦法享受到這個節稅這個節稅的一個優惠那你提供中手稅那個"},{"start":5367.856,"end":5383.952,"text":"扣除扣除而來對弱勢家庭是不是有實際上的一個利益那如果你將高所得的享有較大福利的一個減稅的利益是不是會違反了租稅的公平我想站在護稅署的立場是不是可以跟我們做一個分析一下"},{"start":5384.452,"end":5412.151,"text":"報告委員 委員分析已經非常透徹但是我還是再補充一下就是說因為現在我們在看所得稅的扣除的時候一般是費用的部分那這是屬於存款一般存款跟我們所得課稅是沒有關係這可以觀察在我們所有的包含以前兒少賬戶的相關條例裡面也都沒有給扣除的優惠我們再去觀察美國跟英國他們所推出的這個賬戶"},{"start":5414.792,"end":5431.839,"text":"是沒有給扣除的優惠 都沒有我們非常確定為什麼因為他們觀察到就像委員所講現在有能力再拿錢出來儲蓄存到未來小孩子18歲又給小孩子用的人其實說真的對中低所得者來講是一件很困難的事情"},{"start":5432.539,"end":5455.572,"text":"非常非常困難所以到最後你每年10萬的限額其實當不獲利者會變得高所得者變得高所得者那我們現在44%的人是不用繳稅36%的人是繳5%所以對這些人來講你給他扣除的減稅率是非常低的是非常低的非常低到最後都是有錢人在減稅"},{"start":5456.613,"end":5477.648,"text":"所以所以署長我當我看到了這一個就是說那個未來帳戶的特別條例裡頭因為我們長期就是在財政委員會裡頭我也覺得說有點混亂掉了到底投資跟除息對這個少子化有多少深遠的影響當然我再請教你現行的徵刑稅跟那個免稅額度"},{"start":5478.729,"end":5508.113,"text":"是不是足夠來使用那家長將自有的一個那個款項存入了台灣的那個未來帳戶那如果他依遺產稅跟稅法第四條第二項的一個規定家長對於帳戶開戶人的正義跟現行的那個現行的那個正義那個納稅義務人每年得自徵跟總額中減免那個免稅額244萬這對一般的家庭是不是已經適用了"},{"start":5508.853,"end":5529.111,"text":"如果就是說提供的那個免稅增益額稅額的計算方式的話那這個有沒有矛盾是 報告委員像我們振宇學校每年都給244萬的免稅是一個人244萬所以一般我們現在觀察到的大部分的家庭真的都夠了"},{"start":5529.511,"end":5547.538,"text":"所以你現在變成說是高所得者他在贈餘給小孩的時候他才會碰到課稅的問題那你現在又跟他說不納入贈餘免稅額的計算等於額外給他更多的贈餘免稅那又是剛才就像我剛才講的委員剛才也有觀察到其實到最後還是對高採負責有利"},{"start":5547.998,"end":5563.366,"text":"是啊 是啊這個是不是對幫忙有錢的人就開了另外的一道門好 謝謝我想再簡單的再請教一下我們勞動部就是說在這裡有一個特別的議題要請教勞動部就是說"},{"start":5566.507,"end":5583.442,"text":"針對的這一份草案第三條跟第十四條允許企業贊助自家員工子女就是說階級化的一個延伸在我看來是這樣子如果就是說這個自家員工的子女這個會不會造成說父母親在哪邊上班"},{"start":5584.122,"end":5601.927,"text":"然後就決定這個孩子領了多少錢會不會讓我們覺得說企業的贊助有階級化的一個延伸那是不是會讓小孩子就是贏在起跑點上職業決定孩子的身價會不會有這樣的一個情況"},{"start":5603.539,"end":5618.31,"text":"是委員好委員所提的當然就整個制度設計的時候在主管機關衛福部這邊會做一個整體的考量那每一個相關的制度設計絕對在執行面上都會有一些相對應所反映出來的一個效果是啊沒有錯啊"},{"start":5618.67,"end":5639.181,"text":"我們台灣不是都只有台積電跟小積電其實我們台灣百工百業我們其他的傳產產業還是佔了八成以上那你想到了就是這些中小企業這些外送員這些基層的勞工他如果沒有企業的贊助的話他的孩子在這一個政策上他是被遺忘了是不是我可以這樣講沒錯"},{"start":5644.066,"end":5667.995,"text":"委員的確會有一些實務上面的反應 是啊好 那我想我們大家再努力啦 因為這是一個很好的一個那個草案那我們怎麼樣那個讓他透過不斷的一個討論可以讓他更周全 好 謝謝主席謝謝外匯委員 外匯會員委員發言 接下來請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":5675.917,"end":5677.58,"text":"主席麻煩我們的主席總處的處長請處長 請許處長"},{"start":5691.601,"end":5713.241,"text":"那我今天針對國民黨提出的台灣未來帳戶的條例來詢問我很無奈因為這個法案有四個問題很明顯的是第一個不只是有違憲違法的風險還有財政紀律不足條例目標不清還會拉大貧富差距不過再怎麼無奈我還是要把話講清楚把責任問清楚"},{"start":5714.082,"end":5733.061,"text":"所以想請教主席總書這邊憲法第70條我們的預算法第91條對立法委員提出來的法律案大幅增加稅出的要求是不是講得很清楚第一個要先徵詢行政院的意見"},{"start":5733.641,"end":5746.112,"text":"第二個指明彌補資金的來源 第三個必要時修正其他法規的一個配套那以現在目前提出來的台灣未來帳戶的條例來看的話 請問有徵詢過行政院嗎"},{"start":5750.763,"end":5769.637,"text":"根本沒報告除了預算法第91條之外在財政紀律法還有還有財政收支劃分法第38條之一都有相同的規定那我先問就現在我剛講的那三個法律要件到底做到哪哪項哪幾項目前我們所知現在是都還沒有跟行政部門來"},{"start":5773.199,"end":5797.552,"text":"所以還不知道那個彌補資金的來源還有整個其他如果修正的話那個配套措施是什麼所以這個條例還規定說經費要優先移用前年度的稅計剩餘甚至舉借債務的資應請問主席總署這邊這個規定如果沒有跟行政院討論的話對我們的政府財政的影響是什麼"},{"start":5800.033,"end":5825.024,"text":"這裡面的總經費要達到4500億等同一年他就平均一年是要增加大概340幾億340幾億那我們現在的舉債空間算出來大概就只有1800多億在扣除國防扣除國防平均每年大概要1560億頂多只剩下大概300億的空間那我們每年的"},{"start":5826.405,"end":5851.226,"text":"科技還有公共建設還有我們依法律支出每年這些經費大概要成長5%那每年大概就要花到大約是1200多億所以每年的稅率的成長數大概用到這些就不夠了如果說要在這一筆下去的話那可能就需要排擠到我們其他的一個就是排擠到其他的政策"},{"start":5853.908,"end":5872.289,"text":"說明吧就是這個是一個選擇啦你選擇做這個你可能就會排擠到我們其他的支出以上所以我最後再確認一次如果這個條例沒有符合上述的法律要件如果今天假設真的諸條審查的話被強行通過最後三讀的話是不是又會出現有違法疑慮的條例"},{"start":5874.279,"end":5891.904,"text":"預算法跟財政紀律法有財政措施法法都很明確的規定那對於大筆的支出還需要先指名彌補的財源這一次的金額高達4500億元那目前也還沒有和行政部門來做一個溝通我覺得應該這個還是要謹慎"},{"start":5894.608,"end":5923.162,"text":"所以這就是我們擔心如果立法委員都覺得自己提的事實上是富國利民的法律案的話那我真的想問憲法跟預算法為什麼還要設這些規定各位那就不用啦為什麼不讓立法委員自己想加多少就加多少還要徵詢行政機關這跟財政紀律到底有什麼關係可是我們財政紀律法是講得非常的清楚所以我很擔心說如果有人現在甚至有沒有想法是說今天在這邊質詢一下就算徵詢行政院"},{"start":5923.982,"end":5952.277,"text":"接下來就要強強推上下那我就要請你回到財政紀律也回到我們的4-268號的解釋的原因要防止政府的預算突然膨脹的話那造成人民增加人民的負擔的話那就是要落實我們的責任政治所以請問主席總處你認為今天質詢完就可以增加預算了嗎要從預算編列落實到責任政治的話應該怎麼做"},{"start":5954.315,"end":5966.421,"text":"我們那個立法院具有預算的審議權但是預算的權是在行政院像類似這種金額非常龐大我們認為還是需要由行政部門來做一個審慎的評估"},{"start":5969.045,"end":5987.651,"text":"所以最後我大概也要再三強調 如果沒有妥善的規劃 真的事實上一個政策會變成是全民的災難 如果未來帳戶如果要最後要舉債來買單的話 這到底是投資未來還是在跟未來借錢 這有多麼諷刺謝謝主席總說 請回 那接下來請衛福部的次長請女次長"},{"start":5994.281,"end":5997.365,"text":"次長 我們就來討論完善的規劃剛好在問經費預算有沒有違憲因為有時候除了經費預算的話應該更關鍵的是政策內容"},{"start":6005.618,"end":6028.704,"text":"我要先講清楚要解決重大議題不是不能花錢該花就花可是要先搞清楚這筆錢到底為什麼要編要解決什麼問題這個未來賬戶的法案說明五花八門引用各國的政策依照你現在看到的條例內容暗由立法說明你認為這到底是什麼樣的一個法案因為講了第一條就講了"},{"start":6029.184,"end":6045.873,"text":"大概五個目標那一個政策要解決五個目標只有一個帳戶裡面要能夠解決五個目標那你們過去掃紙花花一千多億從很辛苦的要做兒托生育補助還有教育的支持準攻非營利幼兒園"},{"start":6047.033,"end":6064.148,"text":"這些都要一一的來做推動甚至給我們的保姆的政策跟托嬰中心的準攻甚至普設托嬰中心還在做親子館這些事情所以不知道你覺得這法案到底要解決什麼問題還是能夠解決貧富差距跟培養人才"},{"start":6065.249,"end":6092.374,"text":"非常感謝委員的意見我先簡單說明一下我們在過去8年總共政府已經投入5931億已經投入將近快6000億這是第一點另外第二點我必須要在這邊說我想提出這一個特別條例我想當然我們大家都非常關心但是我們在立法的時候不能只談理想不談代價"},{"start":6094.357,"end":6113.746,"text":"不能只談理想不談代價那你覺得有沒有會影響到什麼因為這13年就要花到4033億喔只靠一個帳戶的政治操作政策操作的話可以一次滿足這麼多政策目標嗎那你們有沒有評估那我們的國民黨有沒有跟你們討論過"},{"start":6117.409,"end":6133.54,"text":"目前就是說以這個第一條的這個相關的這個五大目標這個是我在這邊的這一個過去的研究顯現大概基本上利益良善這一個理念也不錯但是恐怕方法會有誤導"},{"start":6134.381,"end":6155.521,"text":"也會有問題這裡面簡單來說這個目標很好但是呢這裡面的這個策略跟方法恐怕不僅為蒙其利反受其害剛剛也說了就是說在這裡面本來要解決現在當期兒童的問題最後可能會載留子孫而且會複製現有的一個整個階級的不平衡"},{"start":6156.121,"end":6179.513,"text":"最後的結果恐怕要勝思啦而且根本恐怕是沒辦法解決目前現有的少子女化問題因為釐清這件事情非常重要這牽扯到後面政策規劃要怎麼定成效怎麼檢驗這麼龐大的預算會不會排擠到我非常關心的像托育教育尤其我至為關心的社福的資源為什麼我這樣問"},{"start":6181.414,"end":6198.459,"text":"不要沒有看見差異跟弱勢最後就是變成是排評跟擴大貧富差距因為我們在很多政策都看到同一件事情只要不是專門鎖定弱勢最後就會出現參與落差低收入家庭參與的"},{"start":6199.339,"end":6213.53,"text":"会变成比较少拿的也比较少资源有限的时候就本来就应该优先照顾卧室没错没错可是这个条例看不到那个差异化的一个设计我也看不出来它到底要怎么如条文所说的去解决贫富差距"},{"start":6214.645,"end":6242.456,"text":"所以很現實的我們來講那個現實就好就教育發展帳戶的經驗很清楚低收入中低收入家庭常常入不敷出最大問題他就是沒辦法開發穩定的來做存錢所以我就直接問如果中低收入家庭連條件相對優渥的教育發展帳戶都難穩定繳存的話那他們還有餘率去繳這個未來帳戶嗎反而如果通過的話從社會公平正義的角度上來看你怎麼看這兩個帳戶的關係"},{"start":6243.897,"end":6261.554,"text":"是 包委員 陳儒綱委員剛剛所說的其實對於我們很多很多那個低所得者趁這些都不夠 不可能再去拔光所以就是因為這樣 所以我們才來弄這個條例我們讓他一比一的這一個部分另外剛剛陳儒綱 賴委員剛剛也有提到"},{"start":6262.395,"end":6291.968,"text":"我們不是只有台積電還有高科技我們也有很多港口人外送員還有中小企業這是我們每次要去照顧的你這樣是不是會造成我們現有的就是你的爸媽因為在台積電或者說在這個高所得那你現在就可以來有這個Machine Fund還有國家還要給你這個開戶金我是覺得恐怕會有複製現在目前現有的貧富差距不僅沒有解決反而擴大了"},{"start":6292.128,"end":6310.885,"text":"所以真的要慎重所以我也一直在關心現有的兒童及少年未來教育跟發展帳戶能不能讓更多真正需要的孩子被納進來得到更多支持沒錯可是現在看到這帳戶的資格是跟著社會救助法走我從年初就一直找衛福部跟民團談那個社會救助法"},{"start":6311.505,"end":6337.943,"text":"那我就直接問次長我前兩個月代理我們的主持未還委員會考察社會救助跟貧窮的時候團體就很清楚指出虛擬所收入把人卡在門外民間也倡議要用自述所得來補漏洞你們12月29號次長你自己也跟團體開過會可是還是卡在此題所以你們現在願不願意改還是你們有沒有具體的做法要調整"},{"start":6338.503,"end":6360.552,"text":"家庭收入的计算方式把净贫但真正有需求的家庭纳进来让真正的发展账户可以保护到更多需要的儿少非常感谢委员这个问题这个命题大概有两个部分第一个我先跟委员报告我们现在目前现有的台湾的社会救助其实从广义来说不是只有低收中低收其实还包括八大津贴"},{"start":6361.601,"end":6381.398,"text":"那如果把低收中低收當然是2.15但是如果把八大津貼算進來我跟委員報告我們事實上是cover了8.6%所以我們現在目前如果從這個廣義的部分比如說未來我只是說假設未來我們可以把這一個就是牛領津貼的我們或許也可以來納入考量這是第一點另外第二點"},{"start":6381.918,"end":6402.765,"text":"剛剛委員也垂行到就是有關於社會救助法的這一個部分自訴所得我跟委員報告我們現在目前都在進行相關的一個研擬但是我也跟委員報告現在就是說我們反正我們現在目前會朝一個大概什麼時候會好因為已經很多次因為我從我們一進來就一直認為社會救助法應該是優先法案真的要幫助弱勢"},{"start":6403.985,"end":6426.27,"text":"不能讓弱勢在空等我覺得時間真的是不等小孩所以孩子都長大了結果他還是弱勢在貧窮線那邊所以希望你們可以盡速當然我也覺得說今天真的要好好談未來帳戶的議題因為少子女不是單一原因造成的要解決就要多管齊下也要請你們也是好好去思考這件事情"},{"start":6426.77,"end":6443.837,"text":"還有把一千億集中在未來帳戶這一個工具我看不出來這是會是怎麼樣一個有效的方法可能你們是不是也要朝向是說整個的未來教育跟發展帳戶可以怎麼去思考擴大我們的需求讓弱勢的孩子獲得照顧"},{"start":6444.437,"end":6457.646,"text":"是 幫委員 那個其實 卓院長其實也在元旦那邊他有一個 有一個才事就是我們會操擴大的這一個那個弱勢優先的原則來推動 謝謝好 謝謝昭緯 謝謝我們的次長是 感謝佑勤委員 謝謝好 請盧縣議委員詢答主席 佑勤衛福部次長前旅次長"},{"start":6476.942,"end":6496.04,"text":"委员好市长好针对今天的议题之前我先询问一些有关我们原乡的议题最近天冷常常发生一些就是说在办活动的时候就有一些本来是很健康的长者就在中途之间倒下那会发现说可能AED的设置"},{"start":6496.781,"end":6526.17,"text":"不是很普遍第二個就是說我們的急救的時間因為他可能距離太遙遠所以可能就近的醫療院所沒有這方面相關的所以我有個建議就是說是不是可以盤點我們AED的數量尤其是特偏地區然後特偏地區的診所如果說他有去上ACLS或者是說他有相關的一些急救的一個證照的話是不是在他試做這些急救的時候可以在他的健保的一個申請申付上面可以有一個加成"},{"start":6526.89,"end":6555.858,"text":"也就是說常常有一些衛生所跟我講說有的人可能會離職或者是退休結果他們在等待醫師的一個補缺的時候常常會等到一年甚至有超過一年的所以是不是也可以請衛福部這邊盤點我們因為我們偏鄉地區衛生所基本上就是我們族人在就醫的一個解決他就醫的一個需求所以這方面的人力我覺得應該要嚴格把關甚至應該不能讓他出缺超過半年以上還在等"},{"start":6556.758,"end":6576.18,"text":"所以造成我們原鄉的族人都在等待醫師或者是說因為他的門診時間的不確定性所以他不知道什麼時候應該去看還要先打電話或者是他已經租車去那裡結果沒有醫師要等待所以這個部分是不是希望衛福部這邊能夠可以去盤點一下第三個就是毒蛇血清的問題"},{"start":6577.021,"end":6598.102,"text":"我上次有提过可是后来还是有发生就是说我上次有说过就临近我们族人居住的一些医院或者是医疗院所可以优先提供我们的毒舌血清不然他们比如说不小心被咬到结果送到那家医院的时候医院就说这边没有麻烦再转送到大院那时效性跟那个"},{"start":6599.103,"end":6614.635,"text":"觀感因為病人需要馬上被處理他就覺得說怎麼到了醫院還是沒有這方面的一個服務所以我希望說你們就盤點我們尤其是屏東縣的延山公路是到恆春半島比較靠近族人多的地方附近的醫院就應該要有可以嗎"},{"start":6616.477,"end":6634.153,"text":"非常感謝盧委員長久以來對於我們原鄉的這一個醫療的關心盧委員你是原名良醫那我想委員剛剛所提到的幾個部分包括像AED還有像衛生所我想相關的人力的部分我覺得這個都確實非常重要也確實"},{"start":6635.334,"end":6658.204,"text":"我之前有有衛環委員會也有跟也有陪同委員到原鄉去做相關的考察確實衛生所真的就是我們在原鄉這邊非常重要的一個醫療的一個重鎮那我想這邊我會帶回去請跟部長報告來我們來加速剛剛委員剛剛所建議的相關的幾個重要的一個措施"},{"start":6659.045,"end":6671.999,"text":"今天的議題就是說我們之前有看到你的報告優先照顧弱勢但現行的戰後開戶率只有65%那剩下的3.5成約2萬名最窮的孩子你可以做一些解釋嗎報告委員"},{"start":6673.581,"end":6692.84,"text":"其实就国际比较来说我们66%其实我跟委员报告其实算还可以但我还有精进的空间这里面可能有一个关键就是我们有分析这里面主要是低收也有中低收那对于中低收的民众他的开户比率相对比较高"},{"start":6694.942,"end":6717.515,"text":"這個可以理解因為他的所得income來說會比較可以有能力對於低收的部分這部分可能是我們下一個階段必須要趕快來解決這裡面我們可能會給他研究這對一個問題就是說可能是不是現行的制度是採取申請制不像現在我們的版本他是主動給予你覺得這個部分是不是可以去討論"},{"start":6718.816,"end":6740.423,"text":"這邊我是不是也請市長也來跟委員回報一下跟委員報告我們也就是對於沒有辦法繳錢的這個家戶我們會由社工人員進一步的了解他的一些困難等等那據我們所知比較主要的原因還是他們在經濟上是比較不穩定"},{"start":6740.823,"end":6754.462,"text":"對 那我說這因為你現在有剩下3.5成的小朋友沒有參與你們的那個解決方法是什麼有嗎 有在想辦法經濟上的問題應該是最主要的一個因素好 那我們看下一個"},{"start":6756.866,"end":6771.125,"text":"就是说现在的我们的台湾的未来账户我看到第七条是说办理台湾未来账户的相关工作经费来源是来自我们的那个特别预算吗可以请劳动部这边来回答吗劳动部谢谢"},{"start":6780.438,"end":6792.313,"text":"我們是明訂編列四千五百億的特別預算權 明確排除預算法第二三條不得不得不得衝經常支出的限制這些八八委員"},{"start":6794.352,"end":6817.035,"text":"有關於目前我們勞動部這邊在相關的一個不管是農退或者是勞動我們的一個勞退制度上面的一個設計有勞保局這邊來做收支保管那基金運用局這邊來做投資運用那相關在制度的執行過程中都需要相關的人力配套以及相關的經費還有我們在任何一個制度開發的任何一個制度要建置之前"},{"start":6817.415,"end":6835.689,"text":"我們都有相當時間的一個資訊建置期間那我們在相關的報告裡面有提到說相關的人力部分因為以目前我們的內部業務現在所做的跟今天在談的一個帳戶帳戶是一個全新的帳戶管理那這部分我們現行的業務上面並沒有相關的一個經驗所以這部分必須要做相關的一個盤點"},{"start":6836.73,"end":6863.877,"text":"好 謝謝那再請衛福部次長那就針對我們看的一些經驗來看那就是英國的那個失敗的案例沒錯那就失敗的案例2005年到2011年他其實我覺得我在看了以後他的最主要的應該是溝通的失敗吧或者是說家屬就是家長的參與參與度沒有很高或者說他根本就不知道有這些帳戶所以應該不是我覺得應該不是基金的"},{"start":6864.717,"end":6888.203,"text":"所謂的錢的規模或者是說剛才所講的那些行政的這些繁瑣或者是流程常常都是因為lack of communication或是awareness其實是占了絕大部分所以如果說我們針對這次如果國中兩黨的版本通過或者是加上以後我們公聽會有執政黨的版本的話我是不是要著重在這方面這幾個缺失比如說家長的參與度"},{"start":6889.423,"end":6918.325,"text":"然后你把这些或者是说对这项政策的一个认知或者是说你对这个整件事情的一个知道的一个程度知情嘛那还有一个就是说政府跟我们儿少的一些家庭的一些沟通的能力所以我觉得如果这件事情要成功的话应该是要我们借尽英国的这些失败的一个原因然后把它补正然后当然它有一个"},{"start":6919.105,"end":6943.801,"text":"现在的做法就是说他们可能政府的投入的资金已经变成像是领现在叫GISA所以政府的角度可能是站在一个监督或者是说一个平台而不是在一个他的所谓的把所有的很多的资金放在那里面所以他才会有一个成功的面向是不是这些都可以来讨论"},{"start":6944.481,"end":6958.577,"text":"幫委員三個重點第一個我所看過的paper英國的案例其實最重要事實上是因為2008年金融危機所以政府裁員無以為繼所導致的這是第一點另外第二點正因為裁員沒有辦法確定所以這個"},{"start":6959.798,"end":6979.532,"text":"如果蓋起來如果蓋到一半變成爛尾樓這個我想可能就會導致您剛剛所說的只有現有那些繼續繼續繳然後變成是一個死錢在那邊政府就沒辦法所以我想這個會影響到很多很多的很多家的這個家庭所以我想這個必須要謹慎為之最重要的我想剛剛主計主計書這邊有說明裁員必須"},{"start":6982.334,"end":7008.694,"text":"就是说你要编预算91条的规定就是你要寻找有裁员我想这个才是对于民众最大的权益保障对 那么还是希望朝野能够有一个努力的方向然后希望把这些事情做好 谢谢好 非常感谢卢委员 谢谢好 谢谢卢宪逸委员发言接下来请郭国文委员发言"},{"start":7017.664,"end":7019.066,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長請呂次長"},{"start":7026.062,"end":7049.027,"text":"郭委員好次長我想今天藍白提出的版本未來帳戶的內容當中我不曉得部長有沒有仔細去跟他了解看過條文內容包圍有有條文內容當中你有沒有看到他第三條當中把金額的部分定義在多少多少我老實說就條文的內容我第一個是覺得奇怪是把金額放在這個定義當中"},{"start":7050.387,"end":7068.934,"text":"另外一個部分定義跟定義之間還有一個矛盾的地方也就是第三條的部分它限定自存自困款每年10萬 企業5萬然後到第12條的時候又規定主管機關每年公告調整金額到底是10萬為受限還是主管機關可以調整這又是矛盾的地方是的 沒錯"},{"start":7069.514,"end":7086.94,"text":"然後第三個部分呢在他第18條的部分的說明當中內容當中其實我看得出來藍杯版本是copy這個川普的版本的內容川普的版本內容就所謂的合格投資標的而合格投資標的是什麼也不清楚"},{"start":7087.82,"end":7109.575,"text":"美國的合格投資標的標準跟台灣會相同嗎這是第三個矛盾的地方第四個矛盾的地方是基金費用的部分不得高於0.1%就實務上來說台灣沒有任何一個基金ETF基金代鈔的費用是在0.1%的市場上不可能"},{"start":7110.476,"end":7129.939,"text":"市場上甚至有高達1%的當然 越低當然是越好但事實上是不符合現實因為美國的整個資本市場很大數十兆美金跟台灣的整個資本市場的規模又不同所以說就版本內容當中藍白確實有許多令人訝異的地方"},{"start":7130.8,"end":7157.665,"text":"但是我也必須說藍白的這個內容當中我們不要全然的否定因為它相對於衛福部現在的版本當中它把儲蓄擴充到投資把存量擴充到流量我覺得為什麼會有這樣的概念的出來也就是說既有的兒少帳戶當中有它的限制的所在一來對象的限制二來整個資金的運用的限制"},{"start":7159.185,"end":7179.57,"text":"第三呢 是不是能夠保底的限制如果我初估衛福部的這個版本內容當中你們夯不夯當以18那每個月最高金額你們有三種金額1250來計算的話也不過拿到5418年後的54萬是算什麼我想加上CPI的部分大家都非常清楚恐怕相對的貶值的不少"},{"start":7180.39,"end":7205.982,"text":"那衛福部站在整個部本位的角度當中會思考就是說我要濟貧我要針對弱勢兒童我當然可以理解但是我們今天的整個法案的出發點是從一個少子化的一個問題來做出發少子化的問題就不再把過去養育養兒育女的責任視為家庭的責任的情況底下變成養兒育女的責任國家也有責任"},{"start":7206.802,"end":7228.095,"text":"否則的話就不會像衛福部所提的107年到114年你投入了5900多億的原因就在這邊就國家也有責任只是說藍白的版本中比較不負責任的部分就不願意讓家庭負責任卻讓國家負擔了過多的責任也就是這個財責的部分讓國家負擔過多"},{"start":7229.836,"end":7246.187,"text":"這其實是不一定是好的事情也就是比例拿捏的部分去思考說國家跟政府國家跟家庭之間要如何去分擔這個共同的責任這我是同意的但是偏重於哪一方這可能要好好的拿捏跟取捨同樣的道理"},{"start":7247.187,"end":7263.017,"text":"這個少子化的問題也不應該偏重個別的一個部會譬如講偏重在衛福部我覺得沒有道理啊從國發會高度的角度高福祖耳在這邊啊金管會的角色我認為就應該要提升嘛就應該要提升嘛所以其實衛福部其實啊不用故步自封"},{"start":7264.045,"end":7282.952,"text":"你是不是可以開創一個比較open的一個態度出來就是說你應該去思考如何將既有的這個儲蓄老實講儲蓄的薪金要怎麼變多錢這是重要的嘛那你如果是擔心說投資有風險那如果這樣子勞動基金用錢就可以撤掉啦對不對"},{"start":7283.872,"end":7309.226,"text":"投資當然有風險啊勞動基金以前的成效歷史的經驗市場的法則我們都可以判斷出來嘛所以既然是這樣子我們就大膽的把這個儲蓄開放成投資的一個概念嘛那也不要侷限於本部的概念針對弱勢兒童而已嘛弱勢兒童要處理很簡單嘛本席就提出一個版本弱勢家庭由政府權而補助就是保弱勢的方式嘛"},{"start":7310.146,"end":7334.032,"text":"你就用這種條款就處理掉啦你就說一般的家庭他可能提薄一千二弱勢的家庭就是兩千四這就保弱勢不排戶然後照顧全民的兒童全部的兒童不要分階級這樣的情況底下才能真正全面性的去照顧所謂的這個少子化的一個問題啊"},{"start":7335.799,"end":7349.967,"text":"如果說國家的資源投入沒有幫助的話世界上沒有任何一個報告這樣寫我們就不願意做的話那相對的邏輯國家資源投入六千億那會有什麼幫助呢難道還要再寫一份報告來思考嗎"},{"start":7350.968,"end":7366.425,"text":"然後我們只要投放到10歲之後到12歲他要使用的話我們也部分提波限制他的使用用途那18歲之後結清賬戶鼓勵投資的方式來做思考如果要限制用途當然也OK"},{"start":7367.793,"end":7384.313,"text":"那管理很簡單啦 管理不用衛福部啦管理只要用金管會的角度來做思考因為成立委員會在金管會這種事情啊 老實講啊非常簡單啦以前的TISA就是一個管理委員會的概念嘛"},{"start":7385.154,"end":7413.532,"text":"什麼投資標的是適合的反向ETF不適合槓桿操作過大的不適合我們都應該把它排除有一個委員會在審查這適當的一個標的那另外更重要的就是剛剛我提到了要有一個保本的概念本期提出了一個保本的概念不同於過去兩年的一個定期的一個利率應該再加上CPI的這個年增率通膨的年增率這可能確定保本"},{"start":7414.512,"end":7443.718,"text":"所以如果是這樣子的話一年的經費啊也不會像藍白的版本高達1423概估上是如此本期概估上大概279億啊如果是用這種方式來做兼顧一來從儲蓄到投資兩種功能兼具也就是成立一個台灣兒少這個除頭投除這一個專戶的概念的話這個部長 次長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":7444.691,"end":7470.981,"text":"包委員我覺得我們確實今天也是來聆聽委員以及各方的意見只要對於民眾有利我想我們都願意來仔細聆聽 委員也是確實在這個部分我想這個非常欽佩剛剛也點出很多就是相關的問題但是最重要現在我知道委員現在目前三個重點第一個我們現在目前就是從存量到流量第二個從儲蓄到投資 第三個所得上面"},{"start":7471.961,"end":7491.457,"text":"我們的對象上面也來擴充我想只要是對民眾有利我想我們都願意來擴充之外還有保底然後一部分的限制用途的考量也就是說我會鼓勵衛福部還有或金管會或國安會站在一個國家的高度當中提出相對的版本"},{"start":7493.118,"end":7508.425,"text":"提出一個相對的版本來跟藍白對話當然我也鼓勵藍白應該有相對的雅量等到行政院版本出來本席的版本也在連署當中既然是公共政策我相信召委會這種態度不會討論各一的版本而已"},{"start":7509.025,"end":7528.657,"text":"我們希望尋求更多的一個共識然後凝聚更好的一個制度能夠化解台灣目前國安的危機來面對這個少子化的問題問題非常的多包括這個呢兒童的部分我本來是用一個當大人ETF的概念它以後可以衍生衍生變成是兒童版TISA的概念"},{"start":7529.577,"end":7543.944,"text":"其實概念當中過往免稅的部分當然我們的護稅署是護稅第一是保護的護這個護稅署一向都是聽到稅就不想要任何的動護稅署署長你要不要上來一下"},{"start":7544.824,"end":7567.412,"text":"你剛剛講說美國那個訊息你可能要去調整一下可能不是你說的這樣子但是你不如想想日本的這個NISA的部分它的免稅額度NISA 2.0到現在還高達一升當中300萬我們是不是要思考一下兒童的部分把它做放到100萬來思考"},{"start":7570.733,"end":7597.384,"text":"來突破來作為化解台灣少子化危機上的一個租稅工具的一個調整有沒有可能報告委員不管是美國或是英國現在所謂這個兒少專戶的一些相關設計剛才委員提到日本的NISA賬戶他們都是沒有所謂的租就是他們在提撥的時候是沒有租稅優惠他們是指那個所得那個本文"},{"start":7598.084,"end":7615.425,"text":"那個委員概帖是本金所產生的利息跟資息可以免但不是說它在前頭提撥的時候可以扣除不是前頭提撥是總Totally對沒有錯累積的是累積的概念沒有錯我是累積的概念你至少在這部分把它化解掉"},{"start":7616.306,"end":7636.454,"text":"化解掉的話會鼓勵大家願意來投入這個賬戶這樣的情況底下我跟藍白之間版本不一樣他是全部幾乎把責任歸附的國家那我們的部分呢是相對的是說當我政府要相對提撥的時候你的自存戶你要先有作為嘛你自存戶先提的時候我再提嘛這財政負擔"},{"start":7637.955,"end":7662.263,"text":"我相信就會少了很多啦那國家的責任也會有但是國家跟家庭共同來面對這個少子化的問題我也希望這複稅署能夠開放心胸我們思考更好的制度好不好謝謝我們都會配合會配合太好了會配合那也請那個次長次長是少子化的專家啦他剛剛說他是少子化的專家就麻煩一下好好研究一下謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":7663.732,"end":7679.683,"text":"好謝謝郭國文委員發言接下來請黃珊珊委員發言謝謝主席我請那個衛福部次長請呂次長"},{"start":7684.142,"end":7701.205,"text":"黃委員好我想國安問題除了今天的這個少子化未來賬戶的問題其實還有所謂的我們的老年長照問題那我想先討論一下國發會目前的人口推估我們除了進入所謂的超高齡社會"},{"start":7702.086,"end":7721.033,"text":"然後我們對於所謂的內政部統計一個人的家庭一個人的家庭佔了332萬戶也就是說全台的戶數36%都是一個人一個人顯然這個單身不是少數而是社會結構的其中一個非常重要的比例"},{"start":7722.654,"end":7741.541,"text":"那單身獨居當然很健康快樂但是現在的問題是孤獨死亡成為社會中一個最嚴重的問題孤獨死亡在日本跟韓國已經列為所謂的國安問題甚至有專門的立法來做處理我想問一下衛福部對於孤獨死亡"},{"start":7742.796,"end":7769.558,"text":"台灣民眾黨在去年10月不對2024年10月就已經提案了這一年多衛福部對於孤獨死亡有什麼進展有什麼樣的新的想法OK 非常感謝委員長期以來對這個問題的關心那我跟委員回報現在目前就也非常感謝大院的一個支持我們現在目前已經通過這個任性條例編了一個預算嘛62億那62億我們預計這個最有趣的我就現在想問一下次長是"},{"start":7770.479,"end":7791.811,"text":"我們內政部推估孤獨的人有67萬人衛福部推估的有39萬人可是地方政府列冊關懷的只有5萬人你現在變了60多億要花兩年的時間完成獨居老人的調查請問這幾年到底發生什麼問題內政部衛福部地方列冊管理完全不一樣人數不一樣一個67萬一個39萬一個5萬是很離譜啊"},{"start":7798.534,"end":7823.453,"text":"你現在在花60幾億去查你要告訴我這發生什麼問題現在目前其實最重要事實上是我問兩個簡單回答第一個事實上統計口徑的問題統計不一樣統計方法不同我們要注意其實對衛福部而言我們最關切的問題是獨居且需關懷是所以剛剛委員剛剛所說的就是那個5萬我承認那地方列管只有5萬跟你們衛福部評估39萬還是差了30幾萬"},{"start":7826.875,"end":7846.846,"text":"正因為這樣所以我們必須要趕快來做所以我們要重新調查是就這幾年的工作都白做了嘛我要問的是接下來不是只有調查對而是讓他們怎麼樣成為這個社會被關懷的對象沒錯很多人在家裡過世了沒有人知道而且親朋好友去敲門才知道沒錯"},{"start":7847.466,"end":7859.008,"text":"甚至他跟家人不聯絡甚至沒有上班的同事關心這才是今天台灣社會很大的問題就是說我們幾乎沒有這樣子的緊急聯絡人所以我們很多也學習了您的一個在台北的這個經驗所以我們在這邊會來老人就是如果真的需要關懷的話我們會有每天的送餐還有現在最重要就是學習您的經驗我們來設立這一個整個緊急求救裝置"},{"start":7876.131,"end":7902.987,"text":"這叫做社會安全網的一環只是社會安全網比較著重在於所謂的那些有問題的家庭但是其實孤獨死亡才是新的社會問題那另外一個就是我們看到中國大陸他推出一款APP叫做死了嗎也就是設定緊急聯絡人電子信箱如果你沒有上傳APP的話就會通知你的緊急聯絡人這個APP在中國大陸是下載第一名"},{"start":7904.068,"end":7919.366,"text":"也就是說如果我們政府要花六十幾億去做這個那是不是也弄一個相關的APP可以讓我們跟自己的緊急人員保持主動的聯絡現在的網路這麼發達如果你有花六十幾億去清查你還不如花六十幾億花一點點錢去做一個APP讓大家可以通報"},{"start":7921.849,"end":7945.705,"text":"包委員 我想您在台北市 但是副市長您也知道就是說這個重點並不是偵測的問題現在最重要的是它偵測到之後你要有人去檢測你後面要檢得起來 要接得住嘛但是現在這個APP就是通知它的緊急聯絡人總有一個人會去看它現在是沒人去看它 沒人知道它沒錯 所以我們在這裡面會補助地方政府他們成立Core Center"},{"start":7946.665,"end":7975.496,"text":"所以接下去要做的是我希望衛福部有個具體的甚至我認為我們應該列一個所謂的專門的法律來做相關的處理它已經成為少子化之外的國家重要的安全問題現在孤獨死亡不是只有老人喔四五十歲中年很多甚至有年輕人在家裡猝死的然後沒有人知道的其實孤獨死亡它是一個整體國家安全接不接得住的問題衛福部責無旁貸好嗎 這是第一塊"},{"start":7975.996,"end":8000.467,"text":"包委員這個應該是全那個各部會啦 大家共同來利益所以我不希望說再發生內政部講一種數字衛福部講一種數字然後地方政府列管另外一個完全不一樣的數字列管完成 但是沒人去接 列管只是列管好嗎 接下去我想問一下有關所謂未來章 我看到反正大家都認為說這是一件重要的事情 而是一件正確的事情衛福部自己的態度跟立場呢"},{"start":8001.226,"end":8020.938,"text":"包委員我們今天就是部長一開始也說我們就是來虛心來聆聽各方的意見這大概是全世界都一樣的問題不是只有台灣第二個就是這個部分大家說有錢沒錢但是受惠於AI高科技相關的出口中央銀行剛剛上修了114年的經濟成長到7.3%"},{"start":8024.46,"end":8036.732,"text":"然後我們今年預估今年的成長率到3.67其實編列預算的時候這些都沒有在裡面接下去其實不要再說政府沒錢政府要賺錢很容易時間暫停我請國發會請國發會"},{"start":8045.038,"end":8068.757,"text":"副主委我們的賴總統在去年五月說滿週年的時候他說要做國家主權基金然後我們跟美國的談判到現在還是空轉20%加恩還是沒有進展日本跟韓國都被川普要求投資三千億四千億的美金然後我們的國發會針對所謂的剛剛講不管是做什麼事情都需要錢"},{"start":8069.818,"end":8087.669,"text":"那我們當時賴總統說要去做主權基金幫國家賺錢這件事情進展到底怎麼樣我到現在沒有看到任何的進展我想這個主權基金我在院裡面還在各部門的研議當中要不要做還在規劃當中要做還是不要做"},{"start":8088.449,"end":8101.033,"text":"還沒有做最後的決定沒做決定但是總統先宣誓了總統宣誓之前都沒有演繹跟委員報告一下因為主權基金涉及的相關的議題相當的複雜"},{"start":8103.474,"end":8127.639,"text":"但是總統提宣是一年了而且其實我們希望朝野有共識所以我們現在基本上在收集朝野之間對於台灣設立主權基金相關的意見這件事情全世界也是一樣大家都朝這個方向在走只是制度上面要怎麼做可以多多參考各國的狀況但是不要總統說了之後一年還是樓梯都沒有響"},{"start":8129.036,"end":8150.235,"text":"連樓梯都沒有想 更不要說人下來了對 基本上總統也是希望我們多多看看我的意思是說應該是國發會研議出來之後總統才對外宣示而不是總統宣示完一年之後我們在立法院問你的答案還是今天這樣空洞這不是這個國家很奇怪的地方我先宣示了 然後我不做然後你們還在研議然後最後告訴我說我不知道要不要做"},{"start":8151.135,"end":8170.088,"text":"要做就做什麼時候做而已現在是你連說做都不知道是不是應該是說我們有這樣的規劃可是我想任何的規劃事實上都要有朝野就是我們要去都要有朝野共識那就不要隨便亂說第二個我想問那現在我們跟美國的關稅談判20加N到底談完了沒什麼時候會有一個初步的結果能夠跟其他國家做一個比照嗎"},{"start":8180.935,"end":8204.259,"text":"現在有結果了嗎我想其實那個OTM已經有對外說明我們現在已經到最後所以沒有新的狀況我們已經說我們在最後階段已經快三個月了是因為有時候雙邊的談判不是我方可以到現在都沒有任何的進展我想應該是有我們我想立法院都非常體諒行政院我們知道談判是困難的但是"},{"start":8205.66,"end":8233.837,"text":"說一直在談談到現在還沒有結果都已經年底了然後都已經跟日本韓國差了好幾個月了不應該再這樣拖下去同樣的剛剛講如果我們真的是要做這麼多國家安全包括人口老人年輕人未來賬戶這些事情需要更多的所謂的國家預算主權基金是一個很重要的裁員來源這個可能也不能再繼續拖下去了好嗎我想委員的意見也是對主權基金的一個看法是"},{"start":8234.898,"end":8249.335,"text":"希望政府是去賺更多的錢回來照顧更多的人而不是把事情停擺在這裡如果要做就認真做因為我想主權基金就跟今天的兒童法一樣一旦成立以後其實它影響是非常非常深遠的"},{"start":8249.775,"end":8277.37,"text":"所以我們覺得主權基金的規劃所以不應該只是總統宣誓之後是一個空談我想總統宣誓是要希望藉由他的宣誓基金總統宣誓不能隨便宣誓啊收集各方更多的意見總統宣誓不能只是講一個空話然後什麼東西都沒有然後你們才開始研究的問題是這個我想主權基金的研議我們其實過去一直有相關的研究我希望在今年2026年這應該有個具體落實如果今年都不能具體落實那就是空話到底啊"},{"start":8277.99,"end":8285.977,"text":"好嗎是是好謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員發言接下來請王育民委員發言謝謝主席我們有請衛福部可以請教一下部長為什麼今天這麼重大的議題怎麼是次長來應該部長在部長還沒回來嗎部長11點回來大概11點多吧11點出頭"},{"start":8308.281,"end":8316.805,"text":"剛剛不是說這是非常重大的議題嗎民進黨的委員還說還要召開公聽會要更多的討論結果今天部長竟然不在場部長還沒來嗎那個跟玉銘委員報告一下就是部長是有跟我請假啊但是他說他等一下會馬上回來他請假點是他現在在行政院報告這個所謂春節的這個急診這個重要嗎"},{"start":8337.3,"end":8365.399,"text":"這一個是一個很重要的議題我覺得像這麼重大的議題其實部長應該要現場應該要現場就是就是接受委員的巡大因為我看各部會來的也都只是都不是部長級的啦那只有衛福部本來名單就是部長我覺得像這麼重大的其實部長應該要在現場才對還趕不回來現在已經10點55分還是玉敏委員不然我們先暫停一下好不好"},{"start":8367.321,"end":8368.061,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝王育民"},{"start":8396.195,"end":8402.955,"text":"我請呂次還有我們勞保局的白局長請呂次長跟白局長"},{"start":8404.174,"end":8423.868,"text":"委員長很久沒看了是來 我今天問三個問題 三個問題第一個 我們衛福部從2017年就設這個兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶對不對是 沒錯可是現在已經八九年了對"},{"start":8427.31,"end":8445.058,"text":"那你是用中低收入到低收入家庭的孩子那到現在到目前就是三萬九千多人然後存款才三十二億這樣平均起碼一人存八萬塊而已"},{"start":8451.542,"end":8462.791,"text":"這個案子很好把它擴大整個方向整個限制都打開這個本身就是一個好的方法了是不是 市長"},{"start":8465.047,"end":8487.068,"text":"非常感謝委員 長久以來對少子女化問題的關心 我要委員報告就是我們之前 其實這是在美國最早有一個資產累積我們叫Sheldon 他的理論就是說很可能 希望他們在最早 我們十八歲的時候會有辦法第一桶金 讓他們的經濟市場可以繼續"},{"start":8490.791,"end":8510.105,"text":"但委員報告我們現在推動的那部分我們也是說就是要幫助我們這個港口的家庭讓他們脫貧那你現在這個錢是委託台灣銀行嗎我們現在就是存在 存在台銀那邊是跟存在的那些私房或是他們有投資"},{"start":8511.885,"end":8535.032,"text":"我們現在都是儲蓄的功能 只有儲蓄而已所以可以定存的錢 那不是笑的 理想的幾乎是零啊所以你現在 他這個草案說是要讓勞保局操作嘛 勞保局你們在看什麼 勞保局你們看看錢 幾點要給你們 你看你們多厲害"},{"start":8537.825,"end":8562.002,"text":"跟委員做報告現在國內這個兒少發展賬戶那是由主管機關衛福部這邊來指定台銀來辦理那目前的一個實務運作據我們了解其他模式相對是成熟對於中央還有地方主管機關還有金融機構之間的一個分工還有作業流程相對是清楚的那如果在勞動部這邊的話因為勞保局過去扮演的角色是在社會保險部分的一個"},{"start":8562.822,"end":8576.203,"text":"保險人那如果在基金的投資運用上面是我們勞動部的勞動基金運用局這邊來做處理那如果說就這樣的一個制度當然今天大院其實也討論了非常多在制度的一個設計上我們也尊重主管機關這邊的一個考量"},{"start":8578.41,"end":8594.377,"text":"不過在設計的過程中因為以勞保局我們現行的一個整個勞保局的一個定位角色跟人力上面我們是有提到剛剛還講的兒少的發展賬戶如果說在現行的模式上一定有一個相對成熟穩定的運作模式經驗可循"},{"start":8595.407,"end":8622.243,"text":"那在這樣的一個基礎上跟如果把這個業務再委託到勞保局對我們而言是全新的業務衛福部這個架構我看是還不錯但是他就錢就你存在台銀他就是全放在那裡走並且設立一個帳戶這樣而已啊不去投資嘛不去投資就沒有它的效益出來那如果說將來還是放在台銀台銀能力會不會很差啊"},{"start":8623.764,"end":8649.943,"text":"你們的操作幾兆幾兆在操作的你們的效益都有8% 10% 12%所以台會指定給你們對你們才比較有期待那如果是衛福部你把留在衛福部之前交給台銀台銀也是用這種投資的型態台銀自己本身就可以操作因為我給他算一算你沒有多少錢"},{"start":8651.084,"end":8679.63,"text":"最多才三四千億而已比你們那幾兆幾兆再投資的差太多了如果是將來交給你們應該也是小case啦如果是給台銀的話台銀到那個年齡啦我現在比較大的質疑啦現在台銀沒有來不然的話就請他好好的來表示也跟委員這邊做一個補充在目前是不是勞動基金議員局今天副局長有來是不是如果委員同意的話可以請副局長這邊做一個補充那目前我們在"},{"start":8681.871,"end":8696.781,"text":"勞工退休金的制度上面我們有新制跟舊制那在台銀部分的話舊制就是在我們勞基法56條有明確規定我們的收支保管運用是委託台灣銀行來做處理那我們的基金運用局主要是負責新制部分因為下次這個會繼續辦來 第二個問題請次長"},{"start":8702.852,"end":8723.564,"text":"市長這第二個問題就是這一個今天提出的這個未來賬戶這個是很好的我們執政黨的立法委員也說這個很好但是只是說兇兇把他踢出來所以他做得沒credit做得他的公債做得沒了所以給他動動動之後還要開公廳還要做什麼"},{"start":8726.425,"end":8742.317,"text":"那事實上這個在全世界像新加坡、英國、韓國、加拿大都有了嘛那邊的各式的方式都不一樣這都有精力出來了是 謝謝所以出生給他五萬一年給他一萬、一萬、一萬家長要拿可以一年拿十萬"},{"start":8747.561,"end":8771.062,"text":"這樣到你如果說拿10萬到12歲、18歲 那就比較多了對 這個是好事啦 又去投資又有賺一點利息 又有賺一點投資的效益那這個是好事 倒是我們健保局 我們衛福部本身是比較保守嘛還要一種站在旁邊的人 站固定立立 那你不笑耶"},{"start":8772.664,"end":8779.713,"text":"這一直發生什麼樣子委員我想簡單報告一下委員你現在所說的這幾個我估計就是剛才委員所說的英國英國是兩千五年開辦的但是兩千十一年它都停了是怎樣它換方向啦"},{"start":8787.282,"end":8792.745,"text":"不像我剛才說的2008所以委員我們為什麼因為我們這些都是港口人的錢我們要更謹慎的啦你說不用投資 投資比有風險嘛這個部分可能還是要慎思啦 我剛才說英國那個案例可能"},{"start":8807.149,"end":8825.213,"text":"原則是2011年還有一個是由Junior ISA這三萬台那個保安就是後來就沒辦法 去到一半變成爛尾樓所以他們就很好 就很好就接下去了所以我們知道大家都希望說做好但是這個因為像保安今天也有說這個這樣下去四千多億"},{"start":8828.354,"end":8838.009,"text":"我們現在高齡化 我們有很多社會救助 像長照3.0都在退縮所以是不是會產生排擠效果可能也是要謹慎來來來變更舒服好"},{"start":8842.037,"end":8854.481,"text":"所以這個還要等民進黨有沒有提版本行政大臣要不要提版本那部長有指示說我們現在就是廣聽我們國務委員還有我們社會各自的意見我們來做一個對民間我們這些父母最好的一個方案我們是那個開放態度"},{"start":8868.338,"end":8872.421,"text":"好 所以臨近目前要做的就是這樣要做 不用這樣做議長有提及說我們現在目前現有剛才委員也有說這個我們會來研擬看是不是可以再擴大好過不錯 我們要怎麼擴大我最後問你 台灣有800萬戶左右800萬戶"},{"start":8887.91,"end":8898.853,"text":"裡面沒有納稅或是納5%以下的所得稅差不多要到5%幾萬所以差不多六成我都沒有納稅所以你用4萬好太少了"},{"start":8905.435,"end":8928.724,"text":"一定要享受這個不流水 或是說流5%的水這個小孩 你要保證如果說收入很高的這個他們自己就有價位有的小孩 像你說小孩在股市有開戶的像我們部長那麼有錢 對不對小孩在股市就要有開戶啊 對不對沒有啦 這說笑但是我要跟你說的就是 技巧這個"},{"start":8930.202,"end":8955.163,"text":"五六百萬給伊哈一定要給他們一個投資型這樣對小孩子將來要保障因為我們現在錢這樣好的時候就很多錢不好的時候有可能就不好我們台灣現在1100多萬個勞工裡面在做晶片業的才100多萬人"},{"start":8955.683,"end":8968.622,"text":"其他的1000萬 都苦哈哈傳統產業現在都苦哈哈那這個晶片業如果往下掉一點馬上出問題你看整個股市70%的資金都在消"},{"start":8970.408,"end":8983.221,"text":"銷高科技晶片 這個是很可怕的事情你們看好我是看得很擔心這個工農產業你看這個整個股市這邊都國票都六個大約的密碼 這裡就是銷這個好嗎 我不知道這個是我們行政委員會要小心的"},{"start":8992.29,"end":9019.61,"text":"所以你們是開放的態度讓大家來討論原則上你們暫時不提版本我們廣聽各方意見好 謝謝感謝蘇委員 謝謝玉敏你也來謝謝蘇清泉委員發言接下來請王玉敏委員發言"},{"start":9025.441,"end":9053.513,"text":"好 謝謝召委 我們有請石部長請石部長那國發會的副主委其實也一起上來好 王委員好部長好 部長這個我剛才特別調順序就是為了質詢你因為我覺得這麼重大的議題部長你的發言是代表整個衛福部那今天要討論這個台灣未來賬戶我已經看到你面對媒體的時候你說這個普惠市的政策造成資源排擠"},{"start":9055.234,"end":9074.2,"text":"部長這個讓我對你的印象這個打了折扣這樣的發言其實非常的保守而且你沒有用一個發展性的觀點來看待一個未來的可能性這跟你過去給人家的印象完全不吻合是行政院交代你不可以多發言嗎"},{"start":9075.94,"end":9099.809,"text":"因為少子化辦公室你講大白話對不對辦公室根本就沒有真正成立啊沒有專人的編制啊你敢講實話大家肯定你啊那這件事情我是覺得以部長的高度或者是過去看你做事的風格你對於有發展性的創新的東西你應該不是第一時間就會去抗拒跟排斥的人嗎你不像"},{"start":9100.886,"end":9126.892,"text":"跟委員說明早上其實我完整的發言是講所有的政策都是一個選擇那我們都是會在既有的有限資源下去做最好的配置哪些是我們應該要優先那麼難免就會讓有一些這個政策呢就要做互相當中的這些順序的調整"},{"start":9127.652,"end":9143.14,"text":"所以我常講這個我有時候過去大家也知道我為了健保的財務會睡不著覺其實我們國家面臨當然我們的經濟發展很好但是高齡化跟少子女化很多都需要用錢沒有錯"},{"start":9143.7,"end":9164.069,"text":"当然所以我们在少子女化部分我们过去从这个少子女对策1.0到今年开始2.0其实我们不断的在强化除了经济弱势的儿童也对一般的儿童那么也挹注但是部长我要告诉你一件事情数据会说话"},{"start":9165.289,"end":9185.199,"text":"過去政府投資了超過五千億的確有在做 我不會說你們沒有做但是做的結果是去年的我們的新生兒的人口數只有十萬七千八百一十二人我覺得所有的部會所有的人員都要記住107812這個數字要非常的謹記"},{"start":9189.821,"end":9195.975,"text":"你如果看到從2016年到現在我們新生兒的人數他是腰斬"},{"start":9198.26,"end":9226.139,"text":"我不知道賴清德總統會不會晚上睡不著覺你將來你連國監幫你打仗的人都很有困難啊所以這個議題我覺得大家不要小看他就是一個標標準準已經是到國安等級危機的問題這不是空話就是大家在2016年的時候也不敢相信說人口怎麼可能掉得這麼快從20萬人可以掉到10萬7812人"},{"start":9229.181,"end":9241.758,"text":"這個速度太快了所以面對這麼重大的議題政府當然要有魄力 要有遠見要用個更宏觀的角度 發展的角度提出更好的方案嘛"},{"start":9243.058,"end":9261.177,"text":"如果你還是在那邊縫縫補補小知小覺什麼1.0 2.0 3.0然後慢慢增加我跟你說來不及了來不及了所以今天照道理來講我為什麼請國發會副主委上來這是你國發會的責任"},{"start":9263.439,"end":9281.045,"text":"就整個國家的發展你們早就應該要提出更有魄力 更有遠見 更宏觀性至少讓我們的人口可以止跌吧沒有 沒有止跌的方案所以這個是為什麼國眾兩黨今天必須提出來這個台灣未來賬戶"},{"start":9283.286,"end":9303.694,"text":"這一步剛剛次長講了很多說不一定可以解決少子化的問題但是至少他讓我們未來的年輕人看到國家跟你一起養的決心國家可以陪著你讓你未來政府的責任是讓你的小孩未來他在18歲的時候可以有一筆資金"},{"start":9305.254,"end":9322.337,"text":"不管是他要就學也好他要自己再去深造也好我們對於國家未來的主人翁我們政府負了一定的責任讓他可以安穩這樣的一個方案川普已經先講了他今年7月他也要做了"},{"start":9323.098,"end":9339.25,"text":"我們台灣跟進為什麼美國可以台灣不行但是我必須講我今天聽了民進黨很多委員他的這樣的一個發言從前面的程序的發言然後我們官員的報告我感到非常的失望"},{"start":9340.271,"end":9363.742,"text":"因為多數都還是用一種很僵化保守的心態甚至把這個議題跟弱勢的議題連結在一起這是兩件事弱勢本來政府就在照顧而部長我不同意你的是你說這個會造成資源的排擠你沒有用一個更宏觀的發展性的觀念為什麼我們對於孩子的投資就只能這些"},{"start":9365.003,"end":9387.84,"text":"如果這個是未來重大的國安議題為什麼不是政府我們可以用更大的資源跟力量朝野大家一起合作想出一個更好的辦法這個才叫開放的態度但上午的尋討讓我聽起來那不叫開放的態度那個就是打從心裡先抵抗就覺得不好我們看看主計總書跟財政部出的報告"},{"start":9389.895,"end":9404.966,"text":"都是保守再保守啊如果我們同樣政府都是這樣的心態我們的掃紙的話有解嗎我就要問了我們有提出更有效的解放嗎這個是我看到我覺得我們現在政府很迫切危機如果我們"},{"start":9406.383,"end":9430.824,"text":"思考這麼的僵化固著我們提不出更好的方案沒有解方大概會維持這個樣子所以這個是我覺得為什麼今天希望部長你可以上台接受質詢我覺得你應該要回到你原來比較開創性的思考那個部分重新再來思考這個問題你剛剛前面第一句話講得很好政策是一種選擇"},{"start":9433.083,"end":9461.009,"text":"就是我們的方向性我們現在就是少子化的問題我們就應該要很嚴肅認真面對而且你的力道要夠強不要都提那個很微小的很微小的方案出來這是一個大破大立的方案它當然會動用到一些的資源但是我們要問的是對於未來對於給予父母更大的信心是不是對台灣社會注入一股強心針我個人覺得是"},{"start":9462.069,"end":9468.119,"text":"所以這件事情我希望部長你應該要有一個更開放的態度來面對可以嗎"},{"start":9469.191,"end":9496.087,"text":"谢谢委员这样的一些前瞻性的说法不过我们回头来看我们过去对少子女化所做的这些的投入其实没有一条我认为没有一条应该少他都应该做所以我的意思是应该要再加吗只是说不要用这种后事的观念所以面临到现在我们仍然没有办法看到成效那到底是强度要再加深"},{"start":9497.027,"end":9519.948,"text":"还是要另辟蹊径这个是另辟蹊径就是我们现在变成是往以后18岁以后看但是我们现在当前的是强度不够对于这种育儿的家庭他的经济的支持跟机会的成本去强化你既有的政策又外加一一加一不行吗所以我希望是"},{"start":9521.038,"end":9548.139,"text":"再多一點時間像剛剛很多委員也提到以公聽會的方式然後讓我們再有一點時間那部長我可不可以要求你衛福部也要認真去做功課可以嗎會 這個是我們的責任你提出你可不可以有1加1的版本你既有的政策在強化之外再外加這個版本的到底整個我們需要多少的資源另外一個國發會的副主委今天在我們朝這個方向來來努力研究"},{"start":9548.939,"end":9562.125,"text":"國發會的副主委我今天看你們報告 坦白講我蠻失望的過去行政院一直說國發會是扮演一個總體的我們的人口政策你們應該是那個腦但是你們今天的報告不及格"},{"start":9563.147,"end":9581.422,"text":"什麼都沒有提到我跟委員報告就像委員說 剛剛部長說的其實人口少子兒問題設施的面向非常廣泛所以事實上現在行政院的分工裡面是由陳政委在會籍各個相關部會提出相關的規則那基本上我們國發會第一個我們發布人口的"},{"start":9587.307,"end":9608.244,"text":"那個相關的統計你們要提政策啊對那我們基本上我們在負責的部分就是因為其實人口結構會影響到人才跟人力的這個部分所以呢其實我們人才跟人力這一塊怎麼樣去做一些我覺得這個國發會你們要再更主動一點好不好"},{"start":9608.564,"end":9630.77,"text":"是的你不要什麼都是衛福部衛福部他們執行面其實事情非常的多跟委員報告其實衛福部或是陳時中政委在召開相關會議的時候我們國發會都會參與我們也會從國家資源分配的角度裡面提供相關的建議因為行政院他基本上有他的這個政委的分工那我們都有參與其中的計劃"},{"start":9631.59,"end":9647.743,"text":"我覺得你們不夠積極 坦白講過去我看到國發會不是這樣人口政策 少子化政策都是你們在提現在變成都落到這個衛福部頭上我覺得衛福部也沒有那麼厲害所以我認為國發會還是要扮演起一個更宏觀的角度 好不好"},{"start":9648.623,"end":9664.276,"text":"好的政策應該你們來提然後去徵詢衛福部的意見我希望副主委你也很有經驗你們應該要再更積極一點因為解決少子化不是單一部會的問題是每一個部會都有責任好不好我們大家一起來努力"},{"start":9664.836,"end":9680.084,"text":"請大家用一個更開放的心態更前瞻的心態我們一起來思考有沒有更好的辦法讓我們的年輕人更有信心而且真的去落實國家跟你一起養政府的責任絕對不能少 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 現在先做以下宣告待會陳昭之委員詢答完畢後休息10分鐘那接下來請邱政軍委員發言"},{"start":9698.733,"end":9718.019,"text":"主席好我們先請部長休息一下金管會我們的黃局長黃副局長請副局長金管會是這個證券期貨局的局長高金平"},{"start":9721.779,"end":9745.158,"text":"我想請問一下金管會有沒有看過國民黨跟民眾黨共提的台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案你們有實際看過嗎那是不是可以麻煩你說說看我們提的台灣未來帳戶的特別條例草案跟你們拿出來偷換的TISA的這個部分在政策上有什麼不同的地方來"},{"start":9749.502,"end":9772.697,"text":"委員的版本是要委託那個勞金局勞動部這邊來經管這個帳戶那經管會的部分是就我們目前已經推動的TESA的這個帳戶有一個投資帳戶的一個運作情形如果未來這個帳戶這個兒少帳戶你們這個版本有沒有放一塊錢政府有沒有替孩子存一塊錢在裡面"},{"start":9774.083,"end":9800.36,"text":"因為應該是說前端有這個帳戶出來以後是不是要結合投資那如果在結合投資的時候這樣怎麼可以拿出來跟未來帳戶對比呢我們沒有說要跟未來帳戶對比可是我們總統拿這個來回應不是嗎應該是說我們TESA帳戶是未來如果這個帳戶要做相關的投資的話是不是可以運用我們TESA帳戶做一個協助"},{"start":9801.167,"end":9810.384,"text":"所以你們也是希望用這個來替代嗎應該是說我們配合整個國家的政策看是有沒有需要金管會這個TESA賬戶來協助的部分"},{"start":9810.871,"end":9833.528,"text":"因為我看到這個結論就是我們目前政府是選擇不由國家來投資下一代而是把風險跟責任又把它留給我們年輕的家庭讓他自己承擔對不對應該是說政策上是怎麼樣讓這個帳戶成立後端要不要結合投資這樣子但是政策應該還是由衛福我先請我們時務長來一下請時務長"},{"start":9841.115,"end":9848.471,"text":"第一个问题我想请教就刚刚一样的问题就是你们有看过我们国民党跟民众党提的特别条例的草案吗"},{"start":9849.124,"end":9867.499,"text":"因為時間比較短我們大概內部稍微討論了一下但是還沒有很詳細的對 因為裡面有些不是我們本來的領域對 因為我看到你們這份報告書的這個書面報告書裡面都說是在107年的兒童及少年未來教育與發展賬戶條例跟從107年開始的少子"},{"start":9870.962,"end":9882.595,"text":"少子女化對策計畫那你們今天拿兩個說明當成報告內容來回應未來帳戶的特別條例草案我有點意外因為這兩個是這三個是不同的東西吧"},{"start":9884.229,"end":9899.824,"text":"應該是這麼說因為在這個條例今天的草案的條例的第一條立法的目的裡面呢他就開宗明義就寫了為了兩件事情一個是少子女化一個是要世代貧富的消米問題所以我們才會針對為了要達到這兩個"},{"start":9901.906,"end":9924.492,"text":"那個立法的目的其實目前行政單位的相對應的做法就是剛剛提到的少子女化行動對策以及這個這個所謂兒少的教育及發展未來107年那一套這個條例照顧的是弱勢家庭對吧他不是跟少子女化這個部分沒有關係沒有關係那為什麼會拿出來"},{"start":9926.693,"end":9952.621,"text":"因為今天這個條例的第一條的立法說明就寫了是為了要解決少子女化以及消米這個跨世代的貧富落差問題你那個照顧弱勢我看到也沒有幫到弱勢家庭很多啊你就是他們家長出一塊國家出一塊嘛對啊他就已經很辛苦了還要叫他存他怎麼拿得出來"},{"start":9953.001,"end":9976.233,"text":"不過我們現在做了這個8年也有一些成果啦那麼我們也會來現在也在檢討要不要再做得更積極一點我們政策推動之後我們還是相關單位還是要去做這個滾動的檢討來做調整我希望這個錢要花在刀口上好不好我們就是希望把這個錢花在刀口上"},{"start":9976.553,"end":9999.831,"text":"那少子女化的對策計畫我看107年到114年花了5931億元那主要是不是集中用在6歲以下兒童的育兒津貼托育跟幼教補助這種即時性的補助84%都用在0到6歲這個國家跟你一起養的這些策略上你接下來這個2.0計畫115年到118年我們又編了4250億對吧"},{"start":10006.758,"end":10012.713,"text":"對 那還是我看這個做法還是跟過去的做法差不多嘛也都是用在以前60以下對不對"},{"start":10014.029,"end":10036.454,"text":"六歲這邊的這個就是國家跟你一起養的這邊還是會持續的擴大那另外一個就是希望在另外的這個教育還有這個住宅政策還有新手爸媽的寫手還有兒童的照顧的部分能夠再強對那我看到這個部分花了那麼多錢我們的成效是什麼"},{"start":10037.729,"end":10051.464,"text":"這個就如恐剛剛我也有提到我們檢視這些作為好像也沒有一項是不應該做好像也都應該做那只不過是力道夠不夠要不要再講話我看到我們每年出生的人口數"},{"start":10052.785,"end":10075.272,"text":"同一段時間當時卻從大概是18萬人一路下降到107000人這個越做人越少不應該檢討嗎對不對 就表示說我們今天提的我們國民黨跟民眾黨提的這個法案是因為針對這個少子化的部分這已經是國安層級的問題對不對 我們希望加大力度也就是說把它調整到"},{"start":10076.492,"end":10091.363,"text":"到18歲國家養不是國家養 說他出社會之後他有一筆那個是未來的他的資金啦對啊 所以我們在提這個您的看法部長有覺得這個需要嗎"},{"start":10091.909,"end":10120.784,"text":"就是我們現在在思考的是說如果現在我們在0到6歲這一段時間是要減輕育兒家庭的經濟負擔為主因為一個小孩子從出生到大學要花600萬到1000萬對不對所以我們在做這個部分我認為政府現在年輕人不敢生的原因是因為現在養一個孩子要花那麼大的成本這個才是國家的重大問題要有人我們國家才有希望對不對這樣人一直越來越少那以後台灣怎麼辦"},{"start":10121.624,"end":10149.062,"text":"所以我们现在目前的少子女对策大概在0到6岁投注的一个孩子大概是120到180万的补助我认为这个也应该可以再更高一点来减轻这些育儿家庭的经济负担这个是应该优先来思考我们提出的条例是不会排挤也不会影响到0到6岁的既有的经费"},{"start":10150.764,"end":10163.975,"text":"這個我應該這樣講就是我們提到國防預算這個一照2500億我們政府連眼睛都不眨一下為什麼要照顧這個我們的小孩子要鼓勵我們的生育我們這麼多的問題呢這不應該討論嗎這不是更嚴重嗎"},{"start":10169.349,"end":10184.16,"text":"所以我贊成我們來討論那麼剛剛幾位委員也提到那麼以公聽會的方式也很好那麼讓各種的我們既有的政策再來做檢視力度要再加深的地方回去我希望部長您"},{"start":10184.921,"end":10207.719,"text":"以你的專業然後向我們相關行政院來反映一下當然他們現在一定會擋一定會多擋又會排擠到消音什麼的那又搞不好又牽扯到什麼總預算沒過那也希望部長回去跟院長講一下他說我們的挑三檢四嘛那我們也希望我們的這個這個什麼這個"},{"start":10211.559,"end":10228.657,"text":"行政院在編預算的時候不要編的七頂八落 好不好我們把政策在全盤的再檢視一下 好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝委員謝謝邱正軍委員發言 接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":10244.774,"end":10255.263,"text":"主席 再討論先進 烈士旗的政府機關首長官員會長工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生讓部長休息一下 待會還有人要繼續請教您讓次長上來 呂次長請好 請呂次長辛苦了"},{"start":10271.198,"end":10295.155,"text":"市長你好 我想一輩子你聽很多國民黨和民眾黨的委員請教你這個問題心裡有很多的想法我也把這個疑問 我跟你一樣有很多疑問要一個一個問說到這個川普其實很特別 在美國總統很威可以去委內瑞拉 如如無人之境 美軍他們的司法官那麼強"},{"start":10296.496,"end":10314.662,"text":"但是他做的很多事情很多國家都是驚嘆號藍白在野黨的委員對川普總統說各國民主同盟應該強化自己的國防應該增加自己的預算來保護自己的國家維持區域的安定你覺得這個有他的道理嗎"},{"start":10315.923,"end":10343.525,"text":"沒錯那他提出一個川普帳戶感覺上也好像有他的道理嘛我說他的道理但是很特別的台灣在野黨呢只對於川普帳戶情有獨鍾對於要求增強台灣的國防自己防衛的預算好像不太買單不過我們還是一樣還要肯定一下川普的做法你了解吧他是說他任期內的新生兒每個新生兒出來美國政府給他1000美金存那個帳戶裡面後面呢後面靠誰"},{"start":10345.714,"end":10356.206,"text":"後面靠誰 後面靠他的父母嘛對川普總統有沒有每年都繼續給這個新生兒一歲也給 二歲也給 三歲也給沒有 他只給第一筆1000塊給你開辦的一個帳號 開帳你覺得啦 從所得分配來講這個是對比較窮的人有利還是對有錢人有利"},{"start":10363.795,"end":10371.443,"text":"報告委員 他這中年是對有錢的人嘛沒有啦 我是說 阿尊是一千塊給每一個人啦喔 每一千塊 如果這樣 中年就是...對他沒有錢的人 我本來欠一個十塊 我都有困難你現在給我一千塊 我很高興的對有錢人的家庭 沒關係啦可能他老婆老公一年都給他一萬塊 都沒問題嘛所以川普總統這一千塊"},{"start":10385.578,"end":10402.954,"text":"對於一個六四家庭連欠錢都有困難只有他有一個一千塊派對後面的老闆老婦有辦法每年欠錢嗎這不知道對於後面的人來說你沒有發一千塊川普你沒有發一千塊我也是每天每年都給你放一萬塊美金對不對一千塊對於一萬塊來說未來十八年人家十八萬才一千塊所以川普這個政策看起來是對"},{"start":10410.561,"end":10430.135,"text":"普通的美国人的家庭尤其是没有厨师的家庭有个高的厨师嘛好 你知道现在在野党的版本是什么往下看蓝白的未来账户是连给12年我看到一下嘛他的第6条诶 试用对象呢只要出生未满12岁是不是免连给啊"},{"start":10431.513,"end":10448.894,"text":"他的版本是說每年都還要再加一萬進去每年還要再加一萬喔有沒有要求他們的父母要加沒有嘛所以說白吃的午餐最香嘛見物開請就好了嘛這當然要是我是弱勢家庭我也歡迎啦但是有個問題"},{"start":10450.476,"end":10472.891,"text":"你們有沒有算過你們算過差不多隆重要開多少?報告委員我們這樣算算的可能第一年要開多少?這樣總共的方案4030啦四千空空三十億第一年就要開多少?要隆重十二年隆重要開四千多少?四千億十二年四千億看起來跟"},{"start":10473.792,"end":10501.724,"text":"在野黨堅持的年改增加的國家負債好像又是一筆反年改倒退的一個負擔今天我是主計總署他們就不用了我們都知道這個錢國家的錢那有人說這個會不會排擠到現在預算我很懷疑未來12年國家總共要支付4000多億跟我們的年金改革未來10年未來每年要付3600億這筆錢很大有人覺得中華民國國庫很有錢繼續花來往下看"},{"start":10502.793,"end":10523.699,"text":"好那民眾怎麼看呢民眾認為說這個投票的結果多數的民眾六成五是反對有部分民眾是保留他說金額要小不能亂花錢有條件贊成只應照顧弱勢請問你覺得這兩點你支不支持金額要小不要亂花錢有條件贊成限於弱勢家庭"},{"start":10525.936,"end":10552.899,"text":"反對的我們不講啦 有人說反對說政府亂花錢啊資源有限啊 財政負擔啊 政策好聽啊 效果有限啊對於沒有小孩或小孩長大下來不公平啊 這就不看了對於說金額要適度要照顧弱勢家庭 你支持嗎包委員 這個其實也是卓院長在元旦他有一個政策說明其中有很重要事實上就是要擴大我們現在目前但是要弱勢優先弱勢優先 好 那我們現在看啦"},{"start":10553.78,"end":10577.751,"text":"所以說我們覺得在野黨在幫助有錢人的世代財富傳承你看看根據這個第12條這13條未來中的特別條例他這個開戶是在怎樣開戶人或他的法定代理人最近親屬他要存好啦其實富裕家庭的人他本來就會存如果是弱智家庭的可能沒有辦法存所以如果"},{"start":10578.581,"end":10607.596,"text":"弱勢家庭的都只是靠政府存他的福利效果有限有錢家庭的他利上加利等於是政府幫他住很大的一臂之力這樣子在我們的國家的一個社會公平正義來講這會不會是一種所得能力分配包委這可能複製現有的這個階級的還有家庭複製現有的階級差異因為等於是什麼我們看來下一張等於是窮人家今日的麵包成為富二代的未來金幣"},{"start":10608.576,"end":10617.811,"text":"我們把這第一年的一千多億未來的十一年還要加上三千多億這些都是用當年度政府的預算納稅人繳的稅嘛沒錯"},{"start":10619.639,"end":10642.418,"text":"纳税人我知道目前有56%的人都要缴薪资所得税其他的人44%他的所得未达这个程度那现在这些没有缴税的经济能力未达缴税额度的是不是就是我们卫务部你们要去关注的对象要把大家缴来的钱有能力缴税的56%的人他缴了税"},{"start":10643.218,"end":10667.521,"text":"讓我們政府來照顧這沒有能力角色的44%這是衛福部的事情沒錯 所以我們市部長說資源要用在刀口上是 好但是如果我們現在為了這個未來帳戶12年拿了4000億每年等於是你第一年1000億未來每年要拿300億出來預算要編在哪裡編在衛福部名下衛福部有辦法漲出每年多300億嗎"},{"start":10670.3,"end":10693.23,"text":"還是說我們的錢還是從納稅人的錢來所以納稅人繳來的錢本來叫衛福部要照顧弱勢的現在在幫誰的忙幫那些富家庭的二代放他18歲以後的明日金幣對 沒錯我先問一下你知道目前因為我在財政委員會今天實戰聯席我們都知道保險業者最喜歡做什麼業務"},{"start":10694.642,"end":10711.257,"text":"高資產客戶用保單來做什麼財富傳承因為保險的受益人保險的保費繳那麼多高額保費受益人當被保險人頑固的時候受益人他的那個保險的幾戶要不要課稅"},{"start":10713.496,"end":10742.407,"text":"不用課稅不用課稅那現在你這樣的一個版本就當於有錢家庭的人他放到這個帳戶的錢未來他小孩用的時候要不要課稅這個不知道啦那宋署長一點點時間趕快你講一下這樣到底有沒有對富家庭來講節稅的效果我要是買保單傳承財富我可以免於被課稅那這個呢這個衛福部的麵包牛奶貧困家庭的這個錢拿來給藍白板的未來家庭"},{"start":10742.967,"end":10771.149,"text":"他們父母你每年存那麼多我存十倍下去存在帳戶的錢未來可以不用繳稅嗎如果他已經存到小孩的帳戶就變成小孩的錢那要怎麼所以未來小孩體靈本金的部分沒有稅的問題當他產生的知習是有稅的問題目前如果我們有錢家庭在場的有錢家庭財富傳承財政部一年給多少的這樣的一個證語或者是幫小孩子存錢的利息的這個租稅優惠"},{"start":10773.004,"end":10789.885,"text":"如果是正語的話每年是244萬以現在的額度244萬我每年要想辦法挪244萬給我兒子在他未成年之前 我想都有困難那這244萬是不用稅啦是不用課正義稅好 所以來 部長請你上台"},{"start":10791.475,"end":10804.58,"text":"總究你要來做個Ending我請了次長 請了署長好 那請問一下那麼川普的賬戶給其他國家一個參考有沒有其他國家曾經做過類似的事情"},{"start":10805.945,"end":10822.018,"text":"据了解的话在英国也做过类似更早做过英国做过类似更早那英国有继续做吗没有了没有这个没有办法在财务上永续没有办法在财务上永续所以我们规节我们对于"},{"start":10823.385,"end":10844.004,"text":"仿造川普帳戶這樣的一個操作業到台灣之後變成是一個每年都要給父母也不見得要給然後造成的是一個逆所得的逆分配造成還是國家的財政負擔還造成了會排擠到衛福部其他照顧弱勢家庭你們現在有在照顧弱勢家庭的類似這樣的政策嗎"},{"start":10844.705,"end":10861.174,"text":"有多少人受益这个受益目标是应该6万人左右目前有多少万人目前是近4万3万9千多人很好所以如果我们要照顾这些弱势家庭的孩子目标6万我们的卫护部一年要放多少钱进去"},{"start":10862.63,"end":10887.533,"text":"因為這個目前開戶的最高我們一年對波是一萬五所以目前的預算投入大概多少了幾億啊 一萬五大概簡單講已經投入多少六億左右投了六億了對 一年大概要編六億但是目前在我們國家給需要照顧人六億跟給所有有錢人家庭的小孩每個人加起來全部一千億你認為會不會有排擠效果"},{"start":10890.573,"end":10913.78,"text":"我想這個事情我還是覺得我的意見不能代表全體的意見但是我想我們來自不同的家庭不同的社會階層有夢最美但是現實是很骨感的想像很豐滿但是這件事情到底要怎麼樣才能齊全我們支持國家要來支持人民的下一代讓下一代他出生之後他未來有保障"},{"start":10914.68,"end":10933.231,"text":"如果有該公聽會 您覺得您會推薦哪些團體或希望我們找哪些團體來參與意見請你回去想一下 好不好那麼一個星期內給我個名單未來可能我們要是要辦公廳的話我們希望邀請各種不同的團體來討論這議題好不好好一個星期 謝謝謝謝中嘉賓委員發言接下來請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":10945.912,"end":10958.79,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長部長我今天七點鐘不到就在昏暗的走廊等著你等著要第一個質詢你對不起因為有另外一個重要的會議跟趙偉先請個假謝謝趙偉幫忙不好意思"},{"start":10962.383,"end":10976.322,"text":"部長我這次在野黨的合作在野黨推動的台灣未來賬戶台灣Future Account我們的目的就是希望能夠用國家的制度來支持育兒家庭也就是說讓孩子出生的時候就開始累積資源"},{"start":10977.903,"end":11003.176,"text":"那作為強化家庭的後盾那這個帳戶的所有權是孩子本身那一直要到民法成年之後他才能去動用去領用所以是讓未來下一代能夠鋪陳更安心更穩定的一個成長環境就是成為我這個這個標題嘛投資未來投資孩子就是投資台灣的這個未來我先請教部長您簡單回答你認為年輕人為什麼不敢生養"},{"start":11004.136,"end":11027.442,"text":"您簡單給我幾個字從過去的調查當然是在他的機會成本跟他的育兒的經濟壓力上面就是經濟育兒的問題這個根據政大勞研所劉教授指出當然除了低薪高房價之外現在年輕人也擔心經濟力會延續到下一代喔部長你說不是只有個人現在面臨經濟壓力"},{"start":11029.002,"end":11052.715,"text":"他包含未來的孩子都可能會繼續承擔這樣的壓力所以他不敢讓孩子出生這是一個很大的理由不是他自己會延續到下一代現行政策是低收入群有社福補助中低收入有部分的支持但是還有一群剛好不夠窮卻不敢生的家庭完全被忽略了其實他們這群人也是少子化的關鍵"},{"start":11054.176,"end":11082.441,"text":"在野黨所提的台灣未來賬戶某個程度在解決年輕人對育兒的經濟壓力的顧慮部長 我先請問你你出生那一年 我就不洩露你年齡了你出生那一年有多少嬰兒出生超過30萬拜託 40萬 41萬40萬9620人 41萬 部長答案雖然OK 但不夠精準那你就知道 那去年呢 你背一下去年2025年出生多少小孩"},{"start":11083.328,"end":11099.026,"text":"就十萬七千多 近八千你算數打一打 兩成六 沒中去年是你出生的那一年兩成六的出生率當看2025年一整年 這幼徒你看看這個死亡人口跟出生人口"},{"start":11100.424,"end":11125.803,"text":"这个就是生不如死嘛那事实上我们出生人口数下降已经连续60个月那总人口的这个副成长就是生不如死已经24个月请问部长行政院是不是真的有把这个长期这个现象生不如死视为国安问题它是不是国安问题你刚刚就跑到行政院去了它是不是国安问题对对对它是国安问题这个绝对影响国家未来的发展"},{"start":11126.616,"end":11132.872,"text":"那國家少子女化到底花了多少錢部長少子女化政府到底花了多少錢"},{"start":11133.737,"end":11136.66,"text":"我們統計的從這個執政黨開始好了2017開始我們從107到114年我們投入在少子女化對策計畫大概是5913億5931億7年時間假設這個說法是很OK的那部長親口說了台灣的未來賬戶預計13年會花多少錢"},{"start":11159.096,"end":11187.192,"text":"如果按照我們現在的草案起步是個5萬第一年然後後來每一年是1萬就是到12年就停止但是18歲才能領支領13年的總經費才3841億受益人 受益人高達370萬人比起那個虛設的虛假的這個少子女化辦公室這樣這個台灣未來賬戶更省錢請問部長這麼經濟實惠的政策你能夠不支持嗎"},{"start":11190.057,"end":11211.192,"text":"這個說實在我看不出哪裡經濟實惠因為這個都是要花這麼多錢但是對於我們的目標是少子女化的問題來講能夠有多少的注意我真的是有很大的問號你剛剛才回答我你花了5931億來處理少子女化症結果看到的數字是什麼"},{"start":11212.609,"end":11241.462,"text":"這個勤政運動衛福部一再用資源有限優先照顧弱勢這是一個這個錯解社會投資錯解台灣未來政府不是社會救助而是一個普及型的普及型的這個制度設計目的是讓每一個孩子建立一個基本起點他不是針對特定的族群補助發放補助衛福部一直拿這個兒少兒少的發育跟發展帳戶做對比我先請教部長這個政策推行多久了"},{"start":11242.142,"end":11249.177,"text":"儿少未来教育的发展这106年开始推的他8年的吗8年的这8年来实际服务了多少小孩"},{"start":11250.322,"end":11269.849,"text":"目前開戶的是三萬九千多多位部長你又說得出來開幾六千億結果呢目前總共服務三萬九千多個孩子部長認為這個覆蓋率足以回應全國性的少子化嗎我想這個是兩回事少子女化的對策那個5931說實在話84%都是在0到6歲國家一起養"},{"start":11274.411,"end":11300.047,"text":"直接都是補貼到這些家庭所以那些預算說實在話沒有一毛錢應該要沒有一毛錢是拿來做什麼行政啊什麼都沒有那個都實質上是到家庭的身上我覺得那個也不應該這個我們都可以去追究但是結果呢成效不彰嘛不叫不彰嘛所以對這樣的成效那麼到底我們應該要加大力度"},{"start":11300.327,"end":11315.38,"text":"我再告訴部長去年有一篇報導就指出你剛剛講的那個賬戶那個兒少的未來發展賬戶即便符合資格家庭當中開戶率只有六成而且人均每個月儲蓄金額不升"},{"start":11316.061,"end":11343.483,"text":"反降 近半數的限制限市越來越多家庭只能選擇最低的500塊每個月大概就500塊很多家庭甚至沒有辦法維持每個月固定的儲蓄我要談的是說你利益良善去建立這樣制度2018年陳時中部長就承認弱勢家庭能力不足是主因資深志工社工也指出低社經家庭未來的這個用錢規劃因為他沒有確定性很高嘛"},{"start":11343.923,"end":11356.003,"text":"所以民進黨等於從8年前喔你8年就知道這個制度推行困難結果你還是選擇用8年來證明是不成功的8年前就知道困難8年後證明就是不成功啊"},{"start":11356.74,"end":11380.114,"text":"對 所以對這個兒少的教育還有未來發展我們值得再來檢討看看如何調整這個我們倒是應該要積極來做的現在你們都承認現在制度跟規模跟效果都很有限那麼為什麼當有新的制度構想出現時行政院跟維護部還是留在資源有限制照顧弱勢部長你的專業你的角色你就只能做配合嗎"},{"start":11380.754,"end":11399.052,"text":"没有从弱势优先的角度当然应该要优先对一般的儿少我们用怎么样的方式来帮忙这个也可以讨论部长我希望你就是再回去就是把我们的这个计划好好看一看刚刚这个钟嘉明讲错了这个对存的每个月顶多是一万块了"},{"start":11399.452,"end":11427.377,"text":"沒有什麼要存多少錢 然後去致富沒有 不是這樣設計的好 部長上週中榮傳出疑似非醫事人員進入手術台甚至操作手術器械的爭議那院方跟醫護人員回應說這只是廠商協助排除機械故障並不是實際的醫療作為部長 我們長期都在醫界我想你很清楚問題的核心不是影片是否真假而是說制度長期有存在灰色地帶"},{"start":11428.878,"end":11446.319,"text":"許多第一線的醫護都公開指出廠商進入手術室的協助操作這在臨床不是個案不是個案而是多年來默許的一個現象請問部長第一現行法對非醫事人員在手術內可以做到哪個步驟是否有清楚執行的一個界線有沒有你有沒有清楚的界線"},{"start":11447.848,"end":11475.058,"text":"跟委員說明在醫師法28條本來醫療有分為核心業務跟輔助業務醫療核心業務包含手術那麼這個就是要由醫師親自執行這個是沒有模糊的空間有清楚的界線那當制度跟臨床需求明顯脫鉤脫節卻只在世界上曝光後用個案處理那是否等同默許這個灰色地帶的繼續存在呢 部長"},{"start":11475.677,"end":11501.49,"text":"我想隨著科技的進步啊那確實有一些新的儀器這個要導入的時候需要一些技術人員的協助不過也僅止於協助在手術執行的本身還是要由醫師親自執行部長這就是您講的我都理解我理解但是事實上就是說你還是要去做規範嘛因為這個是一個就是房間醫師大象一樣啊就是你知道它曾經存在"},{"start":11502.31,"end":11518.084,"text":"那你如果沒有去就醫療安全不能用用一種公開的秘密去維持它是秘密又公開然後不能用這個方式去維持那主管機關也不能說當作不知道我們大概就當作不知道那希望部長你好好正視這一件事情"},{"start":11519.105,"end":11546.124,"text":"这个有关于这个技术人员进入到这个手术房可能还超过技术人员可能还甚至技术人都不是他可能他应该是技术人员归类在技术人员他提供这些设备如何安装那么摆设等等这些技术人员那么应该要有什么样的规范甚至有一些这个什么指引等等的我们会来研究让他大家有一个遵循对医美的"},{"start":11547.205,"end":11565.743,"text":"醫師的那個指導的範圍的內容您做了一個這個我們相當滿意的一個規範那很多重大的手術其實協助是一件事真的在執行要負上醫療責任的主刀的醫師他根本沒有界限這就很清楚嘛部長這件事情你敢面對嗎"},{"start":11566.884,"end":11581.564,"text":"這個一樣 這個依法行政這個沒有模糊的空間那請部長注意一下這是在房間裡的大象好 謝謝委員謝謝主席好 謝謝陳昭之委員那現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":11632.63,"end":11634.83,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":11642.261,"end":11645.265,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11670.759,"end":11676.015,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12236.36,"end":12250.627,"text":"好現在繼續開會請陳金輝委員發言主席我想請部長有請部長"},{"start":12254.957,"end":12271.411,"text":"陳委員好 部長好剛剛有聽到有些委員他講到說藍白是倉促的提案但我在這邊就想跟您回顧一下記得11月28我做總質詢的時候是不是我就跟你還有行政院院長垂詢過這個問題了"},{"start":12273.012,"end":12296.952,"text":"是嗎你還記得嗎11月28的時候我曾經提到有多項政策都可能對少子化有幫助而這個是本來在你主責的衛福部下面所管理的兒少帳戶他的利益非常良好可是後來落實的不好那我跟你提醒一下那天我跟你討論有三個原因為什麼兒少帳戶他沒有辦法做好"},{"start":12297.552,"end":12321.368,"text":"第一個原因是他的過程比較繁瑣因為必須要這個人實際上去開戶嘛那第二個原因是很多人他是不繼續跟你衛福部去match存錢這些家庭他可能因為一些其他的原因他把資源配置到其他的地方所以他一旦有開戶前面有存後面也就沒有繼續存了那第三個呢我還告訴你說"},{"start":12322.349,"end":12347.539,"text":"他的那個執行率很差在某些縣市可能四五成但大部分落在六七成所以你既然要做這個國家的戰略工具你應該就是要把它擴大所以當時呢我還舉了英國的例子還舉了新加坡的例子跟你說我認為應該要這樣子做比如說全面都做一個兒童帳戶那你的match也不錯但是遇到"},{"start":12348.78,"end":12357.286,"text":"不足的 比如說你們衛福部針對的這些中低收入戶等等 他的誘因不足你們應該要把他match1到1.5或者1到2或1到3然後我們還進行了一個財務試算 你還記得嗎你現在想的錢嗎11月28"},{"start":12368.078,"end":12386.103,"text":"時間有點久不過確實有類似這樣的對話啦所以當時我就已經propose你一個不錯的做法可以改善你現行的方式而且他在財務上我也都幫你算好了因為退場出去的人多嘛進場進來的人少現在進場是10萬"},{"start":12387.743,"end":12413.572,"text":"明年很多人怕是九萬八萬欸那假使因為你有這個賬戶 進場的人數變多也不可能多到讓你財務上有很大的負擔我自己也已經送提案了 但是很遺憾11月28 今天已經1月13囉當時你跟行政院院長回覆我說好 你們聽完了以後 你們說你們要回去演你可是我現在一個報告都沒有收到你們說要回去演你喔"},{"start":12414.272,"end":12426.358,"text":"我一個報告一個回覆都沒有收到那今天你們的報告也沒有寫說你們想要如何來擴展或者是擴大你們現有的發展帳戶因為這個是卓榮泰院長說的他近期聽到有這樣子的idea他就說ok我們衛福部有一個兒少發展教育發展帳戶我們應該要把它擴大就只有標題"},{"start":12439.105,"end":12459.905,"text":"所以今天我是要跟你討論他只有講到標題那你內容你到底要怎麼做因為你今天的報告也沒有說嘛跟委員說明我們其實已經一直在研議中應該很快的會有我們的新的做法一旦有定案之後我會來跟委員做說明"},{"start":12460.41,"end":12485.219,"text":"那你先講啊你要從哪幾個方向去修改去擴大我想最重要的還是先從這個弱勢優先那我們目前所這個對象上還是只在低收入戶跟中低收入戶我剛已經說了你的弱勢沒有你的弱勢就已經執行的不好我剛跟你講了三四個原因了這是我11月就告訴你了所以你說你要怎麼擴大你可不可以直接給我重點"},{"start":12485.959,"end":12507.419,"text":"重点我刚刚讲的就是三个重点我刚刚讲第一个就是对象的扩大往这个边缘户这边来扩大第二个是对提拨的部分去加成怎么样去增加我们在这个Mutual Fund这个对拨的时候政府的这个益助可以再多一些你是说是我给你的建议吗把它"},{"start":12508.42,"end":12523.914,"text":"我們現在在規劃的方向那第三個就是程序上怎麼讓他簡化大概是從這三個方向那你預計你往這樣子的方向去進行你預計受惠的人數會從現在的人數多多少"},{"start":12525.346,"end":12549.707,"text":"我們也在做最後的盤點因為這個還有預算的問題到底我們能夠爭取到需要到多少預算那麼就擴大到哪一個margin所以我們有在規劃很快會有這個結論總結而言對於藍白兩個黨我們其實就是要把小朋友的未來當作是一個投資等於是投資他們的未來"},{"start":12550.387,"end":12569.937,"text":"那之後我們可能會在委員會可能非常感謝周偉堅排案但是我們之後還會繼續來深度的討論這個議題那第二個想要跟你探討我們的想法也是一樣啦就是這個孩子就是國家的未來嘛那我們應該要更多的這個挹注跟投資啦這個是需要考慮的"},{"start":12571.118,"end":12592.567,"text":"我的意思是說其實那天我總之已經講得很清楚了這個東西並不是我們獨創的而是其他國家比如說英國 新加坡他們已經做得很好那我們可以再把它拿進來加入台灣的元素去把它擴大畢竟我們現在一年升10萬明年不知道升不升得到9萬或8萬這個是你要面對的問題你要面對問題之一第二個也是這兩個禮拜"},{"start":12598.849,"end":12617.139,"text":"非常多引起討論的就是很多縣市都已經講到說營養午餐要補貼那如果順利的話可能今年開學以後也就是九月可以很多縣市是免費營養午餐但是呢這個是美國最近我希望你回去可以請你的同仁來研究一下"},{"start":12617.679,"end":12634.312,"text":"美國最近呢提出了一個歷史性關於營養建議的重置所以他們在這邊寫到英文說是historic reset那他的slogan就是make America healthy again那既然各縣市都已經開始要落實營養午餐免費除了讓小朋友可以吃的免費然後家長減少負擔我們也要讓他們吃的健康所以這個指引我等一下跟你講幾個重點"},{"start":12645.72,"end":12672.839,"text":"也希望你回去研擬一下他們發表了這個Make America Healthy Again他就特別做了一個網站他去講他以前這個可能部長你都有看過就是我的餐盤嘛以前他們這個我的餐盤是怎麼樣配置的那他們回顧了這幾十年來所有的流行病學比如說肥胖新陳代謝的疾病糖尿病等等心血管疾病那為什麼他們要做改革"},{"start":12674.16,"end":12688.14,"text":"以前這個餐盤你應該很熟比如說穀物 碳水化合物作為基底那個時候就過度的去強調低脂不攝取脂肪的話很多人就會以精緻的澱粉或糖分來取代脂肪"},{"start":12689.401,"end":12709.497,"text":"結果最後呢這幾十年他們看到了成效沒有那麼好肥胖啊慢性疾病還是急速的在攀升好這個是他們新的他們新的就把原本的金字塔變成一個倒金字塔然後觀念大翻轉比如說吃原型食物他們就不再吃加工品"},{"start":12710.137,"end":12739.355,"text":"那把蛋白質最大化比如說肉類啊然後奶類啊青菜等等放在最上面可是原本我們以為的穀物或者是澱粉是放到最底層非必要的話不攝取並且不再恐懼脂肪他意思是說脂肪裡面分成好的跟壞的所以我們會去擁抱好的油好那我們再回來看一下這個是我們對於我們現在學校裡面小朋友他們的指引"},{"start":12740.848,"end":12766.124,"text":"你可以看到他還停留在剛講的以前那個我的餐盤最下面就是想要小朋友先吃飽所以是以這個主食掛帥然後再來呢你們的蛋白質是講到豆魚蛋肉把肉放在很後面所以這邊你是不是應該要去思考我們要做一下研究肉類的脂肪到底是不是造成小朋友肥胖的主因這邊你回答一下"},{"start":12766.964,"end":12788.097,"text":"跟委員說明過去啊我們國民健康署都會發布國人的每日飲食指引那剛好本來在去年也預告了一版要修那後來呢因為意見還在彙整當中說還沒有發布所以剛好遇到這個美國有這個新的指引出來所以我現在也先把那個指引先"},{"start":12788.757,"end":12800.474,"text":"先hold住重新再找專家那麼也參考了現在新的國際的這些文獻或者是美國的這些指引我們重新再調整一下再來發佈我們2025年的這個"},{"start":12804.419,"end":12828.206,"text":"26年的這個新的這個那我快速給你幾個建議就他們現在呢就是把三角形的最上面放到蛋白質蔬菜還有好油加工食品完全避免糖攝取零容忍然後擁抱天然的脂肪所以我在這邊是希望你可以一個月內給我回覆你會不會來審慎評估美國新指引的這個借鏡"},{"start":12829.656,"end":12849.347,"text":"可以吗可以可以没有问题我们会重新再review因为本来是已经预告过了那现在会再review这是第一个就希望你回顾过去我们这些流行病跟美国一样然后去检讨因为营养午餐免费即将上路那第二个也是一个月内给我报告这个是新加坡的做法"},{"start":12849.907,"end":12876.661,"text":"他們對於這個外面市售的飲料他們會把它分級嘛ABCD A就是糖最少 D就是糖最多所以當他在購買某一個飲料的時候他會發現說這個是什麼顏色他們會教育民眾淺綠色深綠色去拿因為是糖類最少那我舉例比如說小朋友最喜歡喝的美露在新加坡他現在就出了低糖版本所以他會是B級那這個你可不可以也是一個月給我報告"},{"start":12877.942,"end":12903.172,"text":"這個我們來評估因為確實在幾個國家包含澳洲加拿大好像也有幾個國家有這樣的做法但是分法也不一樣不見得像新加坡是用五級有的用三級的什麼不太一樣有的用五級的有的用三級的所以這個分法也不同那國人比較麻煩的是我們很多的飲食不是這種"},{"start":12905.407,"end":12933.352,"text":"包裝式的飲食像比如說是手搖飲或者是路邊攤所以在這個食品的營養標示這個健康標示上面我給你看一下它右邊就是它一些飲料的菜單它也在上面會標示出來這個我們來研究看看怎麼來推廣這個確實是重要這個國人的正確飲食絕對跟健康有好 那就請你一個月內給我剛剛那個"},{"start":12936.173,"end":12942.375,"text":"營養 營養建議然後還有這個營養我們未來整個規劃的方向這兩個報告 謝謝好 謝謝委員提醒好 謝謝陳金輝委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們請部長"},{"start":12968.029,"end":12969.17,"text":"請石部長就今天這個我們要討論這個台灣未來賬戶其實我一直認為就是說我們應該先照顧這個需要被照顧的人那當然就是我們看到這一個"},{"start":12990.104,"end":13015.425,"text":"之前我们卫福部这边也有推一个儿童及少年未来教育与发展账户那这个部分我想请教就是说我们从这个107年到现在这个成果是怎样它的效益是怎样因为这个是针对我们低收跟中低收的这个儿童那你们也将近这个快10年的时间那你们推展的这个效益是怎样"},{"start":13016.156,"end":13044.318,"text":"跟委員說明大概我們所訂的是低收入戶跟中低收入戶的兒少啦18歲以下的那所以目標族群大概差不多6萬人左右那目前已經有開戶的大概是6乘5有開戶那有持續一直在續繳的大概有8乘5也都持續續繳所以目前大概累積在這個賬戶裡面的大概是達到32億左右那6乘5那其他的部分"},{"start":13044.838,"end":13069.848,"text":"其他的部分就是說因為這個因為這個是屬於當然這個開戶第一個關卡是要開戶所以開戶政府就會有1萬塊的開戶那之後呢就是對撥相對應的提撥所以如果這個家長沒有角落的話那政府就沒有這個對應的提撥啦所以我們現在的努力方向當然透過一些社工來幫忙那麼協助開戶"},{"start":13071.409,"end":13096.315,"text":"那第二个就是如果没有继续续缴的了解原因那么社工也尽量来给他们做一些协助那我是不是可以请部长针对这一部分因为低收跟中低收的这些儿少是最需要被协助帮忙的所以如果目前是只有六成五有开户的话我们是不是可以再往前"},{"start":13096.815,"end":13120.69,"text":"就是努力是不是可以再達到八成甚至九成或者百分之百這樣的開花因為確實如果本身這個家庭如果是低收或中低收的話整個經濟狀況其實就很不好有的就是靠政府的這些補助靠這個補助來生活那如果說你要請他額外再提撥這個一萬塊相對我們開戶"},{"start":13124.212,"end":13142.069,"text":"其實對一個家庭來講是有困難那當然就是說我們是不是可以請社工這邊來協助就是說他們有什麼樣的困難那來協助那是不是目前六成五接下來是不是可以達到八成我是不是可以請部長有這樣的一個承諾然後請社工來協助"},{"start":13142.81,"end":13164.421,"text":"好 我們朝這個努力 讓這個覆蓋率可以增加是 好 那接下來就是說我們今天的這個台灣未來帳戶其實這個提出來我也覺得還不錯就是說可以一方面這個只是解決少子化的其中一個項目而已其實少子化不是給錢就可以解決"},{"start":13165.56,"end":13182.07,"text":"部長你認不認同對對完全認同你認同嗎其實我們碰到現在不婚不生的人確實是非常的多那有的經濟狀況也不錯那或者是有結婚他就不想要有小孩所以也不是說給錢他就會想要生"},{"start":13182.91,"end":13211.61,"text":"当然就是说政府如果可以让整个育儿的环境更好那政府也相对提拨一些经费来协助我相信应该也多多少少会有一些协助有一些帮忙那我可不可以请教就是说部长针对因为我一直在问这个少子化所以国人不生小孩这个少子化的这个问题你们有没有特别去分析到底是什么样的原因有 跟委员说明"},{"start":13212.21,"end":13233.992,"text":"大家看到的這個低出生率這是最後的結果但是他背後的分析我們也做過那麼以這個適合生育的年齡的婦女那麼來做分析的話是從25歲到44歲這個族群的婦女因為最主要是適合生育的年齡來做分析在這一個"},{"start":13234.833,"end":13261.682,"text":"这一25岁到44岁的这一群的妇女里面只要有过婚姻不论是现在还是不是婚姻状态那么他的生育率可以高达83到90%而且在过去这10年间的变动不会太大就是说一旦有结婚那么他会有生育那但是反过来如果在这一群里面呢没有结婚的那么他的生育的机会就是小于1%"},{"start":13263.283,"end":13283.659,"text":"那我們再從1990年來看1990年這一個年齡群的婦女沒有結婚的比例大概是21%可是去年已經來到52%所以換句話說台灣的一個少子化問題跟婚育的概念那麼非常高度相關"},{"start":13284.54,"end":13307.093,"text":"所以如果沒有不婚在這段時間不婚的比例越來越高相對的生育率就會一直下降所以我們過去做了很多的努力在希望協助養育生育的家庭但是可能忽略了前面這一段就是婚育概念"},{"start":13308.153,"end":13320.637,"text":"那這個是我們從數據上大概看到這個是另外一個就是讓年輕人敢結婚對所以這個也是未來你們這個需要需要去努力的一個重點對那這個又牽涉到"},{"start":13323.098,"end":13350.759,"text":"我们整个社会的进步那么教育的延长现在就是过去大学毕业之外硕士博士教育的延长还有职场上的友善这些都会影响到婚育所以我想这个是不是只有确实像您提的不是只有钱的问题这个不是只有靠补助就可以完全达到提升的"},{"start":13351.479,"end":13373.984,"text":"我們是希望就是說明年新生兒的出生率不要比去年還要低其實我們看了我們都嚇死了真的在這幾年當中真的是斷崖式的整個人口結構生不如死所以我覺得部長這個應該也是衛福部也是一個跨部會"},{"start":13375.004,"end":13399.414,"text":"非常重要的一個課題所有的這個孩子都是這個國家的未來的一個競爭力如果我們沒有孩子越來越少其實國家的競爭力是會越來越弱所以我希望部長當然我們都會講說希望能夠來解決少子化的這個議題那當然政府在這八年當中也投入了好幾千億也投入了五千多億"},{"start":13401.454,"end":13425.899,"text":"5931億對 5000多億可是我發現這個投入這麼多好像成效也不怎麼樣對不對 部長我們講說這裡面這個5931億裡面85%都是用在0到6歲國家一起養包含生育的補助包含托育補助育兒津貼還有學校教育其實我們投入的"},{"start":13426.539,"end":13450.295,"text":"以0到6歲來講每一個孩子平均是120到180萬不等看他的情況家庭背景跟照顧方式那到底是力度還不夠需要再加強還是像剛剛提到的我們忽略了那個不婚的那一段因為這個不婚率一直在增加所以就造成這個生育率"},{"start":13451.745,"end":13479.696,"text":"就是說有昏的牠的生育率是維持住的只是因為不昏的比例在提高那部長你剛剛講說如果不昏的話從以前21然後現在是到52%那像這樣子的話你們的對策你們有什麼樣的對策嗎如果你知道的好原因是這個那你們有什麼樣的對策嗎這個是整個社會的觀念要去改變這個工程會更大"},{"start":13480.836,"end":13506.249,"text":"你們有想過嗎我們就只在研究找學者 大家在做研究分析也借盡其他的國家還有什麼做法可以來努力好 我們希望就是說今年2026年的出生率不要比2025年還要少我覺得這個部長應該也是你要的守重的一個目標要維持住 然後不能少"},{"start":13507.55,"end":13523.272,"text":"絕對生育率不能少那你剛剛講的這個我們既然知道原因是在哪一部分那你就是要提出一些對策當然不是那麼容易可是我覺得有想有去請專家學者或者是"},{"start":13524.053,"end":13544.297,"text":"找一些人來問看看他們要怎樣才會想要結婚我覺得也許這個也是一個方式就是說想要結婚有什麼樣的動機我們是不是朝著這個方向然後去努力我們各方面都來努力思考這樣好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長下一位我們請賴氏寶委員"},{"start":13556.049,"end":13560.853,"text":"謝謝主席有請史部長請部長賴議員好部長你好我們今天當然主要談台灣未來帳戶重點是希望能夠幫助或者解決不容易解決台灣的人口一直凋零出生率這麼低"},{"start":13584.525,"end":13608.074,"text":"去年2025年 人口多少2025年的全人口不是不是 出生出生出生喔 這十萬七千十萬多一點點那你知道這個2024多少2024喔 那個時候還有十二十三萬多十三萬多2023也十三萬多"},{"start":13613.339,"end":13628.007,"text":"連續兩年都13萬多 一定很悽慘嘛為什麼去年更悽慘一下子從13萬變10萬 等於三成了這個你有沒有想過什麼原因我們現在給你這個少子化的預算"},{"start":13629.288,"end":13655.884,"text":"一直增加欸現在一年的少子化預算多少一千兩百億啊一千兩百億錢給你越多小孩子生越少啊你這個衛福部都不知道要做什麼 不知道代表什麼意思代表你用錯地方啊 錢沒有用到位啊對不對 你要再多錢 我們就願意啊現在大家等於來想辦法怎麼樣 欸 少子化是國安的問題"},{"start":13658.36,"end":13676.034,"text":"現在已經有人預估了按照這樣的趨勢2070年台灣人口2070年很多人不在了2070年台灣的人口只剩1500萬我們現在有多少我們開國閉國獎2300萬2300萬2070年剩下1500萬這很嚴重"},{"start":13684.741,"end":13711.439,"text":"六年 八年來給了快六千億不可謂不多啦去年 一千兩百億你們明年度 就今年的預算變多少也是差不多一千兩百億一千兩百億啊 每年給一千兩百億啊錢 給那麼多效果越來越差 你看斷崖式的 去年十三萬多 今年突 存十萬存十萬啦 想都沒有了"},{"start":13713.137,"end":13739.258,"text":"你們想過原因是為什麼怎麼會今年這麼淒慘到2025年這麼淒慘到底發生什麼事了其實剛剛跟委員說明就是說我們分析從25歲到44歲這一個年齡層的婦女只要有結婚的她的生育率是維持住了那只是說在不婚率的部分一直在提高當中請問你我們現在生第一胎補助多少錢"},{"start":13744.83,"end":13764.48,"text":"我們現在是有各種不同的保險我們現在希望今年有提的這個是希望一律把它補到十萬一台十萬一台十萬十萬也沒多少啦 我跟你講啦我們的出生比例你看一下我的PPT喔"},{"start":13765.794,"end":13790.416,"text":"生第一胎的52%啦第二胎的就生小孩子出來35%生第三胎的10%啦我都認為啊重賞之下必有勇夫啊或者重賞之下必有勇婦啊對不對 大家這樣不跟他說不跟他說一個很重要的你提高誘因可以不可以"},{"start":13791.397,"end":13814.956,"text":"你那個10萬太低了我們現在看關鼓英郎關鼓英郎比如說造風第一胎12萬 第二胎15萬 第三胎18萬這都太少了第三胎啊我到那裡去我都阻擋第三胎100萬起跳哇賽 只有10%而已啊所以10萬只有1萬人100萬就是100億100億啊"},{"start":13821.836,"end":13839.723,"text":"你給他100億就是他一定要生第三個前面的生 你要照樣補助10萬沒關係但是第三個給他100萬能不能理督考慮我來研究看看不是 現在只有10% 只有1萬人而已只有1萬人一個人100萬 那就100億啊我跟你說啦"},{"start":13847.802,"end":13865.789,"text":"我在跑途啊跑行程啊每一次講到說第三胎給100萬的時候掌聲如雷啊好 大家都 你看眼睛一亮啊我現在看幾個女生眼睛都一亮還可以再生啊鼓勵啊 你說可以生到45歲還有人50歲再生的"},{"start":13870.581,"end":13884.869,"text":"對吧 可以控制嗎我們來強化看看在第二胎以後的這個補助措施或者是一些你現在一定要給10萬對不對第二胎起碼要給30萬嘛第三胎你就不給100最少50萬嘛你這樣來說有一點幫助"},{"start":13890.103,"end":13915.883,"text":"會有一點幫助啦今天今天提到因為今天提的未來賬戶是另外一條路我鼓勵你我幫你投資啊幹什麼的可是這導致我沒說我娘這樣對不對你說我0到12歲然後以後18歲可以領第一桶金幾十萬那不如我第一一台我鼓勵生第三個啊鼓勵生第三個你現在第三個你看10%對不對"},{"start":13920.511,"end":13934.967,"text":"這個部長你認真思考好 認真思考第二個問題第二個問題青少年自殺率台灣很高12歲到17歲女性女學生"},{"start":13939.577,"end":13948.885,"text":"自殺率是第一名男生第二名而且進來又上升的趨勢到底是怎麼會自殺的人越來越多為什麼這樣子"},{"start":13953.78,"end":13971.454,"text":"對 確實像委員講的我們也注意到這個現象在這個青年這個青少年的這個自殺率這幾年有一點點緩步上升那我們在這個心理健康師的部分他也有在做深入的研究那跟壓力"},{"start":13972.495,"end":13988.675,"text":"有關係啦 跟課業的壓力跟情緒的處理有關係所以這個可能跟我們現在外在的這個環境還有家庭的你們有沒有成立一個專案去研究一下青少年這個都是國家未來的棟樑"},{"start":13990.057,"end":14015.922,"text":"你整個都自殺了還是到底是怎樣我們整體台灣整體的自殺率是下降的可是青少年是上升的這是很弔詭的事情就是高齡那邊是下降這個族群是上升的所以我們才會提出那個心理諮商方案就是要有管道啦你可不可以去成立一個專案去研究一下我們怎麼樣降低心理輔導因為這個"},{"start":14017.982,"end":14032.57,"text":"這個我看我不要講學校了學校高中生就像跳樓的什麼都有所以我們才會之前提出那個心理諮商那個心理任性的方案就是在針對這個我們再來看看還有沒有什麼可以做得更補強的"},{"start":14034.062,"end":14045.227,"text":"好我給你請回我想請一下那個那個護稅署的署長好不好還有國庫署的馬戶署長請附稅署請國庫署請警管會官員好這個"},{"start":14062.583,"end":14087.719,"text":"先請教宋署長我們如果台灣未來帳戶說為了少數化的問題你護稅署是不是可以對於我們叫沒侵犯就是政府給比如說給一萬每年給一萬我們家長一萬是不是可以免稅報告委員要看是討論什麼稅如果以所得稅來講的話所得稅啊如果以所得稅來講中所稅"},{"start":14092.262,"end":14112.292,"text":"我們就講說像這種所謂存款好了現在我如果把課稅完的所得我拿去做儲蓄我放在銀行的本金我去投資所謂的股票基本上就是一個資金的運用嘛這是所謂所得的運用那基本上都是不能扣這是全世界在綜合所得稅所以你是反對就對了啦"},{"start":14113.733,"end":14129.492,"text":"報告委員這是有一個基本的原則就是你反對啦 這樣不規保我們不規保鼓勵就像一個勞退的概念勞退基金說你提六趴提六趴個人提六趴我們給他免所得稅一樣的概念啊報告委員那個是叫做"},{"start":14130.894,"end":14150.841,"text":"先不課後課我們那個是用先不課簡單講叫延期給付所得的概念所以在你提撥當時因為已經不在你支配範圍叫不進入所得課稅等到以後你領是要課稅的好啦你那個宋署長我知道你意思你反對就對了啦這大家記住喔推動少子化我們希望鼓勵這個政府給一萬我們家長一萬一萬可以扣所得稅宋署長反對"},{"start":14159.406,"end":14161.93,"text":"我們來看今天國安基金要開會"},{"start":14174.053,"end":14195.877,"text":"要開委員會這個國務署的馬副署長你知道這個事吧知道今天是例行就是要開會的時間對那現在指數破3萬店成交量破兆包括上市上櫃加起來過去進場的理由我們這次國安基金已經在裡面多久了"},{"start":14202.764,"end":14212.879,"text":"歷史以來最長的一次過去的理由是關稅台美關稅沒固定大家覺得不貼心心提高國際地緣政治"},{"start":14214.381,"end":14229.033,"text":"這個地方打仗那個地方打仗這兩個條件都沒有喪失所以根據這兩個條件台美關稅沒搞定啊國安基金不應該退場可是大家都知道市場要管的是量不是價"},{"start":14230.814,"end":14253.928,"text":"但是現在成交量都破兆了按照這個理由他就應該要退場可是這兩個你要不要講一下就是說的確就是在川普關稅跟台灣的這個談判還沒有定案所以這部分的不確定因素還在不過就是的確就是最近的成交量是都不上兆"},{"start":14255.489,"end":14270.183,"text":"所以就是說那今天下午我會就是會討論這些然後就是會有一個我請教政經局的那個局長高局長國安基金有沒有在裡面對股市的整個成交有沒有影響"},{"start":14273.811,"end":14285.529,"text":"你是局長欸 你要講話因為國安基金我們就是尊重國安基金的一個操作啊那我們股市就是股市有他的機制在運作這樣所以你不知道"},{"start":14286.974,"end":14313.665,"text":"你要仔細要評估一下要想一下如果國安基金撤了以後對股市有什麼影響你是政局局長這麼大的官因為國安基金我們要尊重國安基金它有一個運作的基礎今天財政部來了官不夠大他不敢講話我剛剛說過了這兩個因素一個應該繼續留著一個不應該留著這個因為我們最近都接到一些電話三萬多點"},{"start":14316.266,"end":14332.53,"text":"這個已經撐這麼久了是不是可以考慮要不要退場但是也有人打電話來說不可以退場 關稅還沒搞定這個地緣政治很危險 這兩個因素都有我聽你們的意見 結果你們都沒有意見 好吧謝謝委員 謝謝官員 下面我們請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":14346.03,"end":14348.734,"text":"謝謝主席 陽春發言 邀請部長請部長好 陽委員好"},{"start":14354.468,"end":14378.311,"text":"部長好 我們少子化的這個問題已經達到國安以及經濟的危機我們看到2025年新生兒的預估我們要到去年的10月大概9萬多 將近10萬所以我們還是希望能夠有突破11萬人但是我們看到各類的補助 包括你的"},{"start":14379.452,"end":14394.786,"text":"托育津贴延长教保的服务或者是人工生殖法现在有很多的县市也正在补助以及每台10万元的现金补助但是这个都是短暂性的"},{"start":14395.447,"end":14416.812,"text":"都是短暫性或者是一次性短期的一個措施他沒有辦法真正的讓這個人願意去生養所以在這種情況之下你的數字根本沒有回溫到目前為止沒有回溫所以我們現在提到了一個台灣未來的帳戶法案"},{"start":14417.472,"end":14434.292,"text":"希望說從12歲以下的兒童設立專屬的帳號初始就以5萬每一年提撥1萬交給專業的基金來做管理跟協助所以到了18歲他可以累積基本上就有33萬元"},{"start":14435.994,"end":14458.65,"text":"同時當然這個專屬必須要限定它的使用用途它的使用用途就是就學就業執訓創業購屋的自備款跟租屋費跟它相關的我們將這個制度來化為長期投資的方式有別於目前的零散的補助政策"},{"start":14459.551,"end":14476.529,"text":"那我們的目的就是要真正去減輕家庭的一個負擔所以本席要在這邊請教提出了這樣的法案那你是否支持將這個台灣未來帳戶納入你國家少子化整體的一個策略請做說明"},{"start":14477.229,"end":14503.707,"text":"跟委員說明去減少這個育兒家庭的經濟負擔就是我們過去少子女化對策的核心的精神就是在這裡那至於說這個未來賬戶能不能夠達到減輕家庭負擔的目標我們是還有一些疑問因為它是在未來才能使用但是它現在是育兒的經濟壓力那需要先被紓緩不然你這麼說難怪"},{"start":14506.929,"end":14533.114,"text":"那麼跟問題之間能不能夠直接的扣合這我們需要再研究研究你們願意去研究好但是我要告訴你因為你衛福部少子化對策的計畫你從2018年到2025年總共花了多少5931億元5931億元但是你給我們的數字是低減少子化是越來越嚴重"},{"start":14535.205,"end":14549.443,"text":"我們從剛剛本席說的2018年到2025年花了將近6000億的預算這都是人民的納稅錢 你沒有與時俱進所以你的答案是少子化越來越嚴重"},{"start":14551.485,"end":14574.744,"text":"越來越嚴重了是不是如此跟委員說明我們也看到一些細部的資料從25歲到44歲的這個適合生育的年齡的婦女來看那麼他們如果有婚姻的那麼他的這個生育率還是維持在83到90這個過去沒有掉下來我們把它維持住了只不過"},{"start":14575.845,"end":14593.862,"text":"未婚的这一段时间未婚的那他的生育率一直是低于1%而这个未婚率到去年来到高峰是52%所以是因为不婚率上升之后让我们的生育率下降所以在整个政策上需要再去强化我们会来努力"},{"start":14594.062,"end":14608.002,"text":"還好你這一句需要再去強化你也知道問題點在哪裡2018年到2025年我們花了將近6000億的預算你知道問題在哪裡你怎麼去做調整那麼我們已經提出了這個帳戶的台灣未來帳戶法案"},{"start":14610.666,"end":14618.652,"text":"我也希望得到你的一個支持因為你原先從106年開始推動的兒童及少年未來教育與發展的帳戶你從這個收入中低收入戶的孩子以及長期安置的兒少的部分來幫他們存入了第一桶金我希望把這個角色擴大因為我們現在所面臨到的樣態是跟以往不一樣剛剛你所提出的點非常的好"},{"start":14639.367,"end":14657.921,"text":"從一個person提升到52%這個是52倍是非常嚴肅的一個議題所以我希望你能夠採納本席我們中國國民黨所提出的這樣的方案那本席也願意你們好好的去研討我們希望在2018年到2025年花了將近6千億的這個經費你的答案是少子化越來越嚴重所以絕對有必要進行方案這是本席給你建議 是嗎"},{"start":14668.529,"end":14696.839,"text":"好我们会来研究因为我们过去的这个儿少的未来教育及发展账户主要是要克服这个贫穷继承的问题希望他能够脱贫在他成年之后能够脱贫那如何是以弱势优先扩大这个大家都非常的清楚就是你以一个点本席希望点线面去扩大来解决因应少子化的这个问题是"},{"start":14697.319,"end":14702.582,"text":"是 好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝謝謝主席 那也請部長請部長謝謝 今天還是要感謝昭緯 廖昭緯對 部長好 部長辛苦今天還是感謝昭緯把這樣的案排進來讓大家有充分討論的這樣的一個時間跟空間最主要是各位"},{"start":14726.714,"end":14741.141,"text":"委員都可以從各個面向來看待這個要新立的這個法的這個內容然後進而是要來處理基本上就這個目標嘛要處理少子化的這樣的一個問題的存在嘛"},{"start":14742.502,"end":14758.233,"text":"不過就是剛剛在程旭花園的時候特別提到也承諾剛剛楊瓊美所講的就是這個鵝哨的這個發展帳戶就我們在107年的5月正式刪除通過到現在實施也將近8年的時間那有參與的這個鵝哨應該是3萬多那實際上有在這個專路裡面已經有30多億"},{"start":14766.599,"end":14782.818,"text":"那我想他特別的開宗明義的對象就是低收中低收還有長期安置超過兩年以上的兒少那我想在這個部分裡面我們是不是要從這樣的一個立基點然後去做擴充"},{"start":14783.539,"end":14791.361,"text":"然後是用社福的這樣的一個角度去做延伸剛剛我聽到楊委員的說法應該大致上是這個樣子我覺得這個絕對是可以討論的因為有一個基礎在不然我們現在訂一個台灣的未來帳戶然後另外又有這個鵝哨的發展一樣是未來的發展帳戶只不過它的對象一個是全部一個是有特定的對象"},{"start":14808.948,"end":14822.789,"text":"這兩個會造成會有衝突那是不是在這個新的法的部分要不要把這個也納入還是怎麼樣我覺得大家都可以討論也可以給部長還有相關單位來做一個思考這是第一件事情"},{"start":14823.249,"end":14839.295,"text":"那第二件事情可能我們要很細心的來細究我看到有一些相關的資料現在如果照這個版本的規劃好像初期就要高達1180幾億然後如果12年的支出又要高達到2840幾億兩個加起來應該是到4500億左右"},{"start":14846.557,"end":14853.728,"text":"4500之後我們有沒有去推估說因為這樣的一個法律的訂定之後奏效"},{"start":14854.893,"end":14874.032,"text":"熊熊原本是預估12萬今年可能沒有辦法到12萬了對不對去年啦 2014年可能沒辦法到12萬但是因為這樣的一個法律訂定之後刺激了確實有生育率有提升然後他到時候變成13萬 14萬甚至於更高甚至於回到以前有可能20幾萬的那個狀態的情況之下"},{"start":14877.135,"end":14900.258,"text":"那這個法律有什麼樣的一個因應的一個處理的條文在裡面嗎顯然是沒有看到啦 顯然是沒有看到但是我們是朝向好的方向去做思考那萬一錢投入這麼多就像有很多委員講說確實國家在因應少子化相關的政策裡面也投入了相當多的經費但是好像"},{"start":14900.959,"end":14930.199,"text":"好像效益都不是很大那這個情況之下我們是不是透過這個法就可以足以來期待這個生育率可以提升解決少子化的問題我想這個還是一個蠻大的一個問號存在那台灣內亞商戶到底是專門是要對少子化的政策還是我剛剛講的他是要從兒少的這個攝乎的一個政策去做延伸還是他只是一個單純的就金融投資的政策"},{"start":14931.059,"end":14949.256,"text":"川普 川普賬戶 部長應該知道嘛對 那川普賬戶他好像也是一個事辦計畫他好像是從2025到2028針對那個時段出生的嬰兒去做實施事辦那我們現在這個賬戶的草案 台灣未來賬戶的草案顯然是"},{"start":14950.157,"end":14970.204,"text":"顯然就是長期的嘛對不對永續的嘛所以真的很多面相的事情我們必須要去做討論那我在這邊有幾個例子給各位也給部長做參考OECD社會政策分析單純的現金轉移或是家庭津貼對提高生意率有一定正向關聯"},{"start":14972.011,"end":14987.506,"text":"但效果規模有限尤其生育率長期低迷的國家例如日本 韓國當然也包含台灣那我們台灣的中央醫院言之有物的專案中又特別提到現金補助金額要非常高"},{"start":14988.547,"end":15015.533,"text":"才可能看到明顯變化那分析指出只有當今天非常大例如幾十萬甚至幾百萬的規模時才可能對生育決策有較大的影響或者提升的效果還是還是有限的不管是參考國外還是參考我們臺灣自己中研院的這個調查報告那我要去表達就是說我不曉得部長怎麼看待這個事情能不能請部長簡單回應一下"},{"start":15018.395,"end":15037.068,"text":"跟委員說明我們本來在推動從106年開始一直以來的這個兒少的未來教育及發展帳戶這個主要是要幫助弱勢家庭不要有貧窮繼承的這個循環下去所以他針對的是這一塊"},{"start":15037.808,"end":15057.301,"text":"那今天看到的這個委員的版本提出來的這個比較像是對於兒童的投資未來的投資但是呢要解決少子化那麼我們就擔心這中間並沒有去扣合到它的效果是不是能夠解決這個少子女的現在這個嚴峻的問題這個是另當別論"},{"start":15061.303,"end":15076.554,"text":"那如果從要解決少子女化的問題來講那顯然的這個育兒的經濟壓力機會成本這個是最重要的考量所以我們過去都是從這個地方去著手"},{"start":15077.054,"end":15094.133,"text":"那雖然過去這幾年我們這個挹注了這麼多的預算那麼生育率不見提升我們還是得檢討那我們現在檢討起來是看到說如果在25歲到44歲這一段年齡的婦女有結婚"},{"start":15095.234,"end":15115.915,"text":"他的生育率是被維持住了沒有下降但是呢不婚的在這段時間沒有結婚的他的生育率很低就是低於1%可是這個比率卻是提高的從1990年的時候這一個年齡層的婦女未婚的大概是21%可是去年來到了52%"},{"start":15117.657,"end":15145.716,"text":"所以會讓整體的生育率下降這個我們分析起來是這樣所以從剛剛委員所提醒的確實第一個要用經濟誘因的話那麼我們的力度還要不要再強化第二個呢台灣的社會的生育跟婚育觀念綁在一起有很大的關聯性所以怎麼樣去鼓勵走入婚姻走入家庭這個是另外一個要去努力的方向"},{"start":15145.916,"end":15160.269,"text":"好我用那麼多時間讓部長好好的說清楚了那我想應該是這樣我是不是可以簡單一個總結嗎部長對這個台灣兒童未來的帳戶的這個草案來講基本上他要讓少子化"},{"start":15161.01,"end":15177.857,"text":"可以明顯的去做改善基本上是還有待商榷啦應該是這麼說啦我講這樣算是很很保守啦也很客觀啦所以我是承諾部長回應我的這種說法那我們很多的育兒津貼坦白講其實這幾年政府也是下注了非常多嘛那實際上"},{"start":15179.598,"end":15205.205,"text":"顯然的效果還是落差值還是蠻大所以還是有很大的討論的空間 檢討的空間我覺得與其要來討論這個帳戶我還是希望可以回歸到我剛剛特別提到舊成本部長所講的107年5月份通過的108年開始實施的這個兒少的發展未來發展帳戶從低收中低收長期安置甚至還有220萬的邊緣戶的家庭"},{"start":15208.126,"end":15224.521,"text":"至今沒有辦法進到這個帳戶裡面我覺得這一個是讓請各位不管再找趙爺爺的委員大家都可以來思考我們如何先來幫助這一群小朋友 寬兒啦寬兒好像是比較呼而他們現在要去訂定這個辦法"},{"start":15226.343,"end":15252.713,"text":"更來的有實質上的幫助跟效益的存在然後至於要如何讓少子化我想另外又是一個廣泛的各個層面各個角度來大家專家學者還有立法院還有行政官員大家坐下來看怎麼樣來設定相關的議題然後來把過去已經實施行之又年的相關的政策再提出來通盤的來分門別列的分組來做相關的討論"},{"start":15253.533,"end":15266.385,"text":"我覺得這對整體的少子化政策應該比較會有實質上的幫助部長你應該可以認同吧非常非常讚同這個委員的這個真知灼見謝謝 謝謝部長你辛苦了你請坐吧 謝謝主席謝謝委員 謝謝部長下一位我們請李彥秀委員發言"},{"start":15285.564,"end":15293.322,"text":"謝謝主席我可不可以請時部長跟國發會高副主委請部長跟副主委好 李議員好"},{"start":15294.332,"end":15315.951,"text":"部長好 從署長到部長你的表情越來越嚴肅所以我看得出來其實我們要做的努力其實非常非常多少子女化的問題是我們長期在衛黃文匯關注的議題這絕對不是只有一個衛福部應該努力的方向跨部會大家都應該一起來思考"},{"start":15318.393,"end":15335.463,"text":"賴總統也特別重視少子女化的問題所以我們成立在上一週我們成立了兒少跟家庭支持署在司法法治委員會才剛審查完我們希望透過這些政策來累積更多的資源來對於兒少來有更多的照顧"},{"start":15336.323,"end":15356.57,"text":"但是我們看到這幾年包括內政部在上個星期我們的新生兒114年新生兒的人數從107,812人已經跌破11萬的大關我們原本還預計說龍年龍子龍女會不會多一點可是可見現在龍子龍女好像也失效所以 今年是蛇年"},{"start":15358.61,"end":15381.479,"text":"對 但是前幾年龍年也沒有因為龍年龍子龍女特別多所以連續10年我們新生兒人數持續的探底已經達到生不如死的年代那國發會在113年10月份也公佈所以在113到159的年的人口推估我們的推估的值新生兒的數值是125,526人但是實際上"},{"start":15385.62,"end":15412.005,"text":"我們的人數我們實際生育人數其實還沒有達到12萬可見國發會的人數退估人數比我們本來預估的人數還要多所以可見生育人數是越來越少減少將近14%所以我們少子女化的政策2.0我剛才在辦公室外外特別把你1.0跟2.0拉出來包括剛才劉建國委員也有質詢"},{"start":15413.405,"end":15434.371,"text":"我覺得我們過去這幾年無論是1.0也好 2.0也好我們都著重在生育養育創造更好的懷孕的環境或者是出生兒的環境給大家但是你知道當一個新婚的家庭夫妻也好準備要不要生小孩的時候他不會只有想到"},{"start":15435.171,"end":15450.152,"text":"我懷孕期跟兩三歲或甚至是0到6歲他一定是討論說我們以後要結婚我們大概生幾個他會想到說那個整個孩子成長的過程我們夫妻到底有多少能力去養育這個孩子"},{"start":15451.032,"end":15471.845,"text":"所以我覺得我們在討論未來帳戶的時候不是只有討論事後的補救貧窮或者讓每一個孩子都在同樣盡量拉在同樣的起跑點上我覺得更要去思考的是投資下一代的未來這是我今天我質詢這個重點我要強化的地方那我看到你這1.0跟2.0我覺得都沒有錯但是"},{"start":15475.868,"end":15490.826,"text":"從現在的不婚不生頂客族不婚不生或者是晚婚晚生我就應該分兩大塊不婚不生像我助理很多都已經不婚不生他們都已經決定不婚不生那現在要生要婚"},{"start":15491.627,"end":15508.935,"text":"有沒有可能從一點我生一個我們有沒有更好的誘因去讓他生兩個三個這個可能還容易達到一點不小心又懷孕了一個想辦法養得起這當然都是目標我覺得所以我要講的就是說在政策在工具上我覺得我們應該不斷的去轉換思考換心"},{"start":15512.437,"end":15538.055,"text":"這個不行 這個正式試兩年不行我們要不要再加入什麼樣的工具這個少子女化 我看到那個數據幫我跳一下日本跟韓國你看我們的數據我們亞鄰國家2025年的出生率我們才4.62 每千人我們才4個人4.62人 日本還有5個人韓國有6.7人我們在亞洲國家 我們還是倒數的可見"},{"start":15539.136,"end":15554.336,"text":"我們這些工具我們現在有的1.0或即將有的2.0的政策工具我覺得我不能說不夠好誘因仍舊是不夠的我想部長你承認嘛副主委你也承認嘛這些都是問題"},{"start":15555.417,"end":15570.145,"text":"當我們現在不創新去做更多工具的處理的時候未來我們可能都要花更多的資源去做投資譬如說勞參率10年20年之後我們人在哪裡不要講現在各行各業都找不到工現在這個年代都已經找不到工"},{"start":15570.965,"end":15586.433,"text":"更何況10年 20年後你醫生 你現在醫生也在缺工對不對 你醫生以後要難道引進外國人來當醫生嗎就是這個可能又是很大的挑戰所以我覺得我們在討論未來帳戶的時候我覺得不應該只去思考到"},{"start":15587.613,"end":15606.893,"text":"錢的部分因為我們在投資未來這個是我要我覺得我要提醒你觀念應該要調整的地方所以創新的作為是事實上是有必要的那去年人力網站澄清調查家庭總收入至少要花到要有足夠11.3萬元才有能力養一個孩子"},{"start":15607.313,"end":15624.743,"text":"也就是說夫妻平均的月薪要達5.6萬元才養得起孩子那也高於主計總出估的4.78萬所以我們當我們在做一些政策的時候我們去預估夠可是事實上外面的通膨各方面孩子還有後面的什麼"},{"start":15626.624,"end":15642.06,"text":"補習還有什麼學習歷程要去做培養那個額外的經費都是我們現在我們到我們這個年紀我們可能想像不到新的育兒的那些費用不斷的在增加所以舊的方法是做不出新的結果"},{"start":15643.76,"end":15659.909,"text":"所以我覺得我們不應該是說排斥性的去做哪些事情而是我們要認真去思考每一個政策我們去做研究評估它未來它可能10年20年後它可能帶給我們的效應是什麼我們這個政府不是只在解決現在這4年的問題"},{"start":15662.321,"end":15679.897,"text":"我們也要為未來多留一點我們的基底平常我們之前台積電不是二三十年前我們有台積電如果過去沒有投資台積電的話怎麼會有現在的護國神山所以我們在為台灣投資未來這是我們現在身為政務官我們行政部門應該要做的地方"},{"start":15682.235,"end":15693.83,"text":"你們剛才劉建國委員也有質詢到我們現在有一個我們現在當然也有發展帳戶發展帳戶其實不是不好而是我們現在開辦8年來我們整體的開戶率只有65%"},{"start":15695.913,"end":15723.897,"text":"公司也有提醒說做一個期末報告提醒說現在包括低收入戶也好中低收入戶也好就是說大家沒有進來投資最主要的原因是達到31.67跟39.86最主要是他們覺得沒有錢可以儲蓄就是說即便政府投第一桶金他沒有配合款可是憑良心講我覺得這都可以有配套措施我先幫你投一點未來用什麼樣的方式我當你因為"},{"start":15724.477,"end":15739.915,"text":"他可能過幾年他可能條件突然好或者是我現在沒問題我過幾年我可能我的家庭收入又有問題就是那條線有時候會是移動的所以我更認為有政策工具可以去做處理這不是不能解決的事情"},{"start":15741.141,"end":15768.443,"text":"因为一个家庭的总收入其实是跟着父母的工作情态状况家里的有一些变化的因素都是滚动式的做调整所以当我面对那么多的不确定性的时候我很难去下定决心新婚夫妻或年轻的夫妻去敢去生第二个第三个但是当我很明确看到十年二十年之后我只要养到高中"},{"start":15769.344,"end":15784.438,"text":"高中畢業之後我政府有第一桶金放在那邊他要出國留學他要自己念大學都擺在那邊了所以那個給家長足夠的信心你知道嗎因為我們義務教育到高中所以我覺得"},{"start":15785.799,"end":15808.385,"text":"不要去摒除就是說國民黨藍白的這些草案一定不好我們背後的思考而且這些背後的思考也都有其他國際的研究來去佐證來支持我們這個法案所以我才希望說不要去想說這是藍綠的法案而是這個是拯救我們台灣少子女化未來的一個法案所以我希望用這樣的心情"},{"start":15809.145,"end":15819.926,"text":"思維去考慮這個未來帳戶現在兒少發展帳戶隱含著你要為自己投資未來你要自己先負責所以你要自己先投政府才投"},{"start":15821.604,"end":15845.619,"text":"中低收入家庭他根本連自己都拿不出來他怎麼你政府投多少他都沒有那個錢頭連現在都每個月可能補習費都付不出來沒有辦法讓孩子去補習了更何況他要再去拿錢出來跟你投資我想你同意你應該同意了解我的說法所以社公司我也已經看了社公司對於國際研究也有指出對於家庭跟兒童"},{"start":15847.14,"end":15867.482,"text":"如果做一個未來賬戶的話對於很多家庭跟兒童的養育或教育或照顧的話我覺得會產生更多的正面的影響如果我們有一桶金擺在那邊我家長堅持我就是養到高中大學孩子自己去處理或者是我們有第一桶金擺在那邊給他一個未來"},{"start":15868.683,"end":15893.427,"text":"那咬著牙身為父母都會堅持下去我覺得這樣子的態度對於很多想生第二個想生第三個他們就會好吧咬牙咬著牙一起咬著牙一起辛苦一點一起所以我覺得朝這方面去做更多的思考所以我也要提醒部長你們在這段時間我看不斷對外放話說未來賬戶初期的經費就超過已經超過1185"},{"start":15897.529,"end":15921.001,"text":"如果每年再提拨1萬到12歲的話12年要2844億元總共需求你們對外不斷的放話是4030億元但是我要提醒的就是說每一年事實上首年需要比較高的啟動資金外其餘都是12年分年編列當我們都可以花1.25兆買軍購的武器"},{"start":15925.005,"end":15947.791,"text":"當這些武器沒有年輕人才去做操作買那麼多武器怎麼去處理所以我覺得不能只看現在很多事情應該去投資長遠所以我要再次強調事後補救我們少子女化補救貧窮不是不需要當然要我們現在一直在做"},{"start":15948.251,"end":15966.589,"text":"但是少子女化的問題很顯然我們這些政策工具沒有辦法處理所以要有創新的思維事前投資下一代改善家庭 改善夫妻對於養育的更多正向的思考國際上有研究我想你有看到所以不要排斥它"},{"start":15967.25,"end":15987.067,"text":"你一直点头代表你同意我的说法吗我都很同意的就是说从儿童投资的角度来投资未来投资儿童这个是值得去研究所以会不会因为这些政策也因为这些政策让夫妻愿意多生第二个第三个我觉得要朝这方面去思考"},{"start":15987.788,"end":16004.097,"text":"那我覺得我們現在政府不是只處理這四年的事情我們也要為未來去做更多的打算當沒有勞參率都沒有人要進來當軍人都沒有人操作這些武器不要講防衛國家任性台灣都變成寒假了"},{"start":16005.225,"end":16023.403,"text":"要人才有辦法操作才有人上班才有人養就是我們社會責任下一代我們才有人照我們不斷的社會式的滾動我覺得這都是需要做更長遠的思考以上 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝部長接下來我們請廖偉祥召委"},{"start":16036.253,"end":16046.665,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請我們石部長以及我們這個國發會副主委請部長副主委廖委員好"},{"start":16048.106,"end":16063.434,"text":"想要先請教一下部長今天這個議題是蠻嚴肅的那想要請教一下部長今年是10.7萬那你們過去總共花了8年花了多少錢在嫂子女的預算上5931億那連年跌下來那請教一下"},{"start":16070.08,"end":16095.187,"text":"你認為這個問題嚴不嚴重嚴重啊很嚴重嗎對請國發會主委請問這個副主委高副主委你覺得嚴不嚴重這對於國家未來當然嚴重因為影響整個人口結構非常嚴重是不是有沒有到非常嚴重我覺得他是一個很重要力氣對國家未來發展包含勞動力包含未來基本上我想要跟大家說明一下這個Elon Musk就是特斯拉執行長"},{"start":16096.007,"end":16122.256,"text":"他最近就說他最近也公開對於南韓的生育率表示很驚訝他還警告如果南韓的生育率持續的低迷未來南韓甚至不需要北韓的這個發動戰爭他人口崩潰就會直接讓這個國家從地圖上消失那之前他對於台灣也有評論過沒有新生兒就沒有文明而且我們的這個出生率是更比比起韓國怎麼樣"},{"start":16123.823,"end":16145.234,"text":"比前面怎麼樣更糟糕這次是不是更糟糕算是最低了是吧部長要不要這個部長回應一下吧這個差不多了我們跟這個南海韓這兩個國家是是不是算是全球非常低最低可是可以說最低對啦對比南韓糟糕吧"},{"start":16146.78,"end":16166.338,"text":"正確的數字還沒看到啦那如果是以剛剛已經有很多數據出來啦對啊是吧因為南韓的數據我們還沒看到那是不是已經現在算是前年的話是所以我們比我們差一點啊但是常常網路上說真的好想您南韓啊我們現在的出生率真的贏他了最低啊非常的糟糕"},{"start":16167.399,"end":16174.773,"text":"所以我想要問一下部長請問一下你對於過去我們的執政黨花了5931億達到這樣的成績你打幾分"},{"start":16179.324,"end":16198.013,"text":"我覺得我們過去我們也算過這5930億裡面的84%都用在0到6歲那每一個家庭我們認為這個挹注是不是不夠我們要再思考啦所以我想問的是你打幾分成績一直低落身為一個執政黨要負責吧對吧"},{"start":16198.653,"end":16218.634,"text":"對於這樣子的事當然你是剛剛當部長沒有多久但是身為一個執政黨一個政府應該要負責吧我們沒有要黨派喔這是如果一個公司的CEO讓他的公司這個所有的表現一直越來越差誰要負責CEO要負責是不是那執政黨是不是要負這個責你們的你對於這樣的表現到底你打幾分"},{"start":16219.475,"end":16237.283,"text":"我想我們還有努力的空間我們不應該給自己打分數但是我們要持續的努力這個還有很大的部長如果不願意面對就是不敢打分數不願意面對就不會解決問題今天很多人說這個多久以前提過然後這個有相關的法案"},{"start":16238.323,"end":16259.681,"text":"但是我們在這段時間審法案以來就知道沒有壓力你們根本就是在拖嘛一直在拖嘛沒有想要給一個方向沒有想要有創新的思維那今天就又說我們要再演繹要再花多少時間幾場公聽會我不知道我們國家還有幾年可以再等喔真的我不知道我非常語重心長喔"},{"start":16261.331,"end":16287.921,"text":"所以今天我可能要主席要多花一點時間喔就是其實我想要跟你說我們現在是不是可以好好討論嘛大家都想要好好討論嘛所以本席就靠這個時間來好好的講而不是用一些知諱末節想要拖延大家來面對這件事情或者是不去做結構性的改變不去做創新的方式你們沒有任何創新的方式就只有一直這樣子下去啊那你再補多少錢進來都不夠嘛對吧"},{"start":16289.662,"end":16300.567,"text":"那你也沒辦法一次補到位所以我必須說現在我們少子化對策其實是過度依賴短期的所得維持的手段所得維持的手段因為"},{"start":16302.059,"end":16322.499,"text":"因為我沒有否認像我也贊同部長說的現在的每一分錢我覺得花在都是必要的支出可是你沒有解決問題啊所以你需要雙軌甚至是另外的思維也必須把這個所謂的面對資產價格膨脹或者是階級固化的結構性的挑戰其實你單純的這個給付這個"},{"start":16325.942,"end":16346.364,"text":"這個過去的手段是沒有辦法對於年輕世代未來經濟沒有辦法解決他們對於未來經濟的深層焦慮喔所以今天我們討論這個TFA就是台灣未來賬戶其實我們想要表達的事情是這樣子的模式是希望透過政府早期介入跟長期的複利效應"},{"start":16347.85,"end":16360.798,"text":"旨在要為每一位台灣的兒童建立起起碼的資本存量這不僅是教育基金他更希望可以破除現在的這個代季的貧窮循環的關鍵問題"},{"start":16364.471,"end":16383.707,"text":"所以我想要說其實我們要將這個預算從消耗性的支出的思維的思維轉化成這個資本性的投資希望可以讓這個社會的投資報酬在未來是可以回來的所以我們的概念應該是叫做為我們國家的下一代為他們存股"},{"start":16385.123,"end":16413.39,"text":"國家為了下一代存固這樣子的一個戰略的思維所以我想我想要回應一件事情大家在拖在想說沿路討論其實已經討論很久了所以維持現狀其實就是現在最大的財政風險維持現狀就是現在最大的財政風險所以我們進一步來看現在我們的社會結構雙重危機我會稍微快一點極端的財富分配不均以及崩潰的出生率"},{"start":16415.037,"end":16440.737,"text":"所以我想要說一件事情就是過去這段時間以來喔台灣的我想要請教一下你們知不知道現在貧富差距變多少有不同的算法一個是前20%跟後20%66.9倍我講給你聽啦但是如果依照過去這個民進黨在執這個執以馬政府時期的用前5%後5%你知道多少嗎"},{"start":16441.84,"end":16444.946,"text":"那個是財稅資料嗎對對所以150倍對150倍對不對對嘛你要不要回答一下是不是"},{"start":16449.977,"end":16474.797,"text":"好你們不知道但是我不想在這糾纏喔就是這個數字因為你剛剛也點頭所以事實上我們希望做到的事情其實剛剛這個我想部長也有講到為什麼你說這個現在少子化你們去研究他們從這個你覺得現在主要原因是不渾嘛是不是不渾那不渾背後的深層的考量是什麼這個還要再進一步研究啦"},{"start":16476.093,"end":16490.226,"text":"我跟你說啦數據的統計分析現在我們少子化的國安危機是從不想生到養不起到你剛說的不敢婚就是不婚不敢婚所以他背後有很大的一個因素是經濟的不安全感"},{"start":16491.806,"end":16507.271,"text":"你們過去投資了這麼多你已經投資了5931億了結果他們是很多的調查或者是網路的輿論也都表示年輕人不敢婚不生的核心原因不是因為討厭小孩是深層的經濟恐懼他擔心一個是階級複製的焦慮"},{"start":16513.413,"end":16542.743,"text":"一個是育兒成本的長期性他不只是短期你補貼他這些短期的消費他對於他長期包含教育居住創業等等高昂的資本支出他是一個長期投資他都覺得你現在的這個每個月多少錢他算是杯水車薪啊所以你現在的補貼政策你頂多叫做給他一個起碼生存的生存的一個重點而已你只是給他一個起碼最低最低位所以你沒有辦法刺激到他想生嘛"},{"start":16544.443,"end":16568.384,"text":"對不對好 下一頁好 再下一頁所以其實剛剛有提到不敢生不敢婚剛剛當然包含這個經濟的問題包含了居住正義的問題但是今天不展開居住正義我們就回來這裡嘛剛剛就講所以你們過去投資了5931億結果全國最低這就是現在的成果所以你要面對啊部長你要打分數啊完全不及格啊花了這麼多錢那下一頁"},{"start":16570.367,"end":16598.716,"text":"好 所以剛剛也有講到基本上都是用這種所謂的補貼思維在做那我們不是否認補貼 補貼要持續做可是你一定要有創新的角度來切入嘛所以這就是我們講的 過去你是一個消費型的補貼你缺乏了負力思維 甚至你有可能資源錯置因為審計部的報告也指出許多計畫的項目執行率低甚至淪為所謂大傻逼 缺乏戰略高度"},{"start":16600.6,"end":16606.59,"text":"所以這個部分真的要給你們好好的建議好好的討論針對這個你有沒有什麼想要表達的"},{"start":16609.291,"end":16631.084,"text":"對 這個確實我們要有更開創性的思考沒有錯是 所以今天我們就要跟你討論這個開創性的思考所以台灣未來賬戶我覺得不要覺得說是哪一個政黨提出或是不是執政黨提出就不想接受我覺得大家今天真的也是我也覺得大家都很關心我們大家就好好討論所以我們進入細節譬如說這個基本上我們政策核心架構"},{"start":16632.265,"end":16648.232,"text":"TFA提出的我想不僅是一個福利政策啦我們更也是一個整體戰略思維的金融工程我們也希望透過這樣子的力量來解決社會問題那當然包含這上面有的適用對象啊0到12歲啊台灣的孩童大概是226萬"},{"start":16650.58,"end":16665.983,"text":"那普遍性的福利也會打破所謂排富條款標籤化的效應喔這個也是一個可以思考的點因為你們剛剛一直會說是不是要把錢只放在什麼中低收入戶啊低收入戶啊等等的其實等一下也會討論到目前成效就是不好"},{"start":16666.704,"end":16692.818,"text":"對吧 成效就不好然後再來就是政府提撥嘛當然就是有個啟動資金剛剛很多委員也講到可能啟動資金稍微高一點1100多億可是憑良心講啊你們在補貼電費這個想要補貼台電隨便也是兩三千億然後買這個軍購也是隨便一開就1.25兆我實在是沒有辦法想說為什麼這1000多億你覺得投資在我們台灣的下一代會覺得好像沒有錢或是做不到"},{"start":16693.658,"end":16710.823,"text":"然後第三個點是家長提撥他是自願性質的不是說強制要求他提撥而且他也有額度的上限那再來資金的管理是中央集中管理我覺得就是類似我們可以比照一下勞退基金的模式"},{"start":16711.303,"end":16732.305,"text":"那投資標的當然就是追蹤這個比較大型的好這穩定的也不會說被說什麼個股操作的風險他就是等於是跟著金融市場在成長的情況之下去去做成長好所以還有最後當然有個提領的限制那這個部分當然很多細節我認為都可以開放式討論找出更佳的方案"},{"start":16733.308,"end":16754.47,"text":"好那所以我就要進一步講一下不知道這個部長有沒有知道過去台股歷年喔因為你們大家會講說當然有高高低低啦會有高高低低有時候這個賺多一點有時候賺少一點有時候虧錢可是其實我們要用長遠來看我想這個勞保基金也都是這樣講所以歷年來他平均的利潤是多少"},{"start":16756.224,"end":16772.74,"text":"這個我沒有在買賣股票對好你不知道嘛那我這裡就給你看嘛其實基本上如果是悲觀的情境4.0%好那這是大概悲觀的情況是4%那如果複利下去的話可能是24.5萬"},{"start":16774.582,"end":16791.258,"text":"那再來保守情境就是好一點 5.9%那最後就是可以是大概28萬那再來當然也有算法是可能33.9萬 56萬那中立的話是8%那如果用現在台股過去的歷史平均11.9%如果他這個當時都參與進去的話他現在是有85萬"},{"start":16797.643,"end":16822.171,"text":"對 那當然這是歷史數據我們就是深刻討論所以即使在最保守的情境之下18歲時累積的近30萬的資金對於富裕家庭他可能是 當然可能是零用錢但對於弱勢家庭的青年他這筆錢是有可能改變他的命運的資金他也足夠可能支付他的學費 生活費或者是作為這個技職創業的第一筆資金"},{"start":16823.971,"end":16835.89,"text":"而且更重要的是什麼如果他台股維持歷年的歷史表現的話他的這個資金是徹底改變一個年輕人的起跑點他可能不會一出社會就背負學債"},{"start":16837.782,"end":16853.688,"text":"甚至他如果沒有家長可以給他一個什麼房屋的頭期款他這個部分他也可以去做那他有個房現在剛剛講你不敢婚嘛不敢婚背後就當然就是他可能買不起房然後婚了之後他可能養不起家嘛這是一個也很大的因素"},{"start":16854.648,"end":16866.085,"text":"所以我想我們今天要討論的就是說我們這個制度的設計的創新啦我們希望從這個消費型的福利轉向投資型的福利的概念思維的轉變我們要從救濟變到投資"},{"start":16870.251,"end":16885.47,"text":"因為傳統社福可能一直是比較屬於是補貼給魚吃那這個現在的這個設計是希望也給他一個釣竿給他資本把兒童視為國家未來資產而且而不是財政的負擔因為你們一直在講類似財政的負擔"},{"start":16886.511,"end":16913.602,"text":"那再來另外一個觀念就是從短期到長期我們要跳脫年度預算的短視其實它是一個長期承諾那當然這個具有一定的挑戰性那對於國家發展但是它至關重要剛剛講到非常嚴重未來沒有人再參與在這個市場上我們等於是沒有文明那當然再來就是一個金融的包容性因為要透過國家的力量要讓這個原本被排斥在金融市場之外的弱勢兒童能夠"},{"start":16914.722,"end":16934.142,"text":"零門檻的參與資本市場享受經濟成長的紅利這也是為什麼我們剛剛前面要提到貧富差距越大是因為真的有參與這樣所謂的金融市場的太少了嗎太少所以這段時間貧富差距變成150倍是誰的錯我覺得就是政府沒有想到這樣子的事情的錯好再來"},{"start":16938.479,"end":16962.925,"text":"我想我們剛剛講到也有一直有人講到說現在衛福部就有相關的這個計畫啦那我就想要告訴你們說現在目前為止從數據顯示他的局限性開戶率的瓶頸8年的推廣到2024年底開戶率66%嘛那代表說有三成多的小朋友需要的弱勢兒童根本沒有被覆蓋到"},{"start":16964.724,"end":16979.327,"text":"再來存款的中斷率高即使開了戶也常常有發生家庭的這個經濟結局斷供雖然所以其實這還是一個很大的問題再來是資金規模的限制那這都是現在"},{"start":16980.248,"end":16994.62,"text":"主要你們存在所謂的這個定存利息所以你們沒有投資增值的功能所以在通膨環境下他基本上他在錢放在那裡是被吃掉的所以我想這個你們應該都要知道應該都要去檢討"},{"start":16996.209,"end":17024.603,"text":"那再來剛剛有一隻有講可能有人我們當然可以討論你怎麼排富要不要排富可是我想要說其實現行的制度你在做這樣子的事情的時候你也有一個副作用什麼樣的副作用呢有三個第一個是標籤化的效應其實申請該帳戶等於是某種程度上也會承認自己是貧戶啊對於有一些邊緣戶或者是邊緣戶你覆蓋不到之外自尊心強的家庭也可能就沒有就會卻步他可能就不參與"},{"start":17026.594,"end":17040.7,"text":"所以你基本上你福利未達再來第二個貧窮陷阱我想這也不用多贅述第三個還有一個龐大的行政積合成本所以你們之前做很多事就是就是這個部分也是要考量的所以"},{"start":17041.42,"end":17064.453,"text":"總而言之我想還是一樣現行的制度是一個救助思維的產物你僅能夠說勉強維持底線但是我們今天討論的TFA台灣未來賬戶它是一個發展思維的產物我們希望能夠為所有的兒童創造向上流動的動力這兩個層次是不一樣所以我認為它不要互相排擠"},{"start":17065.433,"end":17082.222,"text":"那你應該要開創新的思維所以剛剛其實後來也有講到譬如說也有講說英國英國有做為什麼它取消了我想這個就是你們要去用功一下大家用這個來用短暫的去說因為英國失敗我們就不該做是不對的它為什麼錯"},{"start":17083.443,"end":17104.816,"text":"為什麼他做不下去他的管理是去中心化的英國政府他發放貸金券讓家長自行去銀行或投資機構開戶結果導致市場碎片化家長面臨選擇困難高昂的手續費他賬戶分散在私人金融機構管理成本非常的高昂機構也收取高額的管理費可能有1.5%嚴重的侵蝕獲利還有一個是賬戶休眠截至2023年他聽說有17億的英鎊"},{"start":17111.98,"end":17128.397,"text":"約680億的台幣的資金沒有人認領近百萬的年輕人也錯失了這筆錢再來一個是金融素養的落差啦富裕家庭他可能選擇股票型的基金報酬高那貧窮家庭就是選擇現金存款報酬又低所以這也是他發生的問題好下一頁"},{"start":17129.864,"end":17154.209,"text":"所以當然我們可以去我們現在的設計就是希望說去這個針對他的去中心化跟遺失去做補強所以類似勞退一樣如果他像最近勞退表現不是特別好嗎10幾%平均10幾%那真的是對他們來講是很好的一件事情那再來針對投資落差所以你可以追蹤大盤指數確保他們享有相同的投資報酬率"},{"start":17155.67,"end":17175.455,"text":"下一頁當然我們也要參考一下新加坡的兒童培育戶頭他可能還更靈活一點點這個我們未來都可以去檢討不過這裡時間因素我就不贅述所以這是幾個國家目前有的東西的比較如果到時候部長你們需要的話我再提供給你們下一頁再下一頁沒關係"},{"start":17178.393,"end":17186.888,"text":"好所以剛剛有講到如果說是接近勞退基金的模式的話事實上很多的問題是可解決的好那下一位好"},{"start":17191.001,"end":17213.526,"text":"好 所以基本上我們希望的目標是為台灣下一代建立一個國家級股東的身分我們希望國家幫你養孩子也幫孩子存未來這是我們希望的事情那請部長你們不要一開始就抱持著一個說這個好像很多問題不去做的態度因為剛剛你們的報告大概都是長這個樣子都是這個態度我認為你們既然也都覺得"},{"start":17214.846,"end":17234.277,"text":"這個問題非常嚴重請你們用開放的思維然後好好去研究國際的經驗失敗的我們也學習不要人家覺得失敗你就不做成功的我們也借鏡好不好部長可以嗎那你什麼時候可以有你們的一個報告或者是版本我們盡快在一個月內也提出我們的分析好謝謝謝謝昭偉謝謝部長"},{"start":17242.839,"end":17244.882,"text":"下一位請李坤城委員發言好謝謝主席我們請時部長請部長"},{"start":17264.639,"end":17282.118,"text":"好 李委員好部長好 辛苦了今天在討論這個台灣未來帳戶特別條例那我看他的這個說明裡面說要解決少子化的問題那也要投資下一代但是實際上兩個問題都沒辦法去處理所以他是問對了問題但是拿錯了藥方"},{"start":17285.521,"end":17300.249,"text":"那我看了一下 他這個是長達18年長達18年的一個資產的累積 18歲之後才可以用那所以他沒有辦法減輕家長目前的負擔那也沒有辦法去提升這個生育的一個意願第二個就是說"},{"start":17301.249,"end":17321.65,"text":"他的條例呢 他沒有排富的設計那所以呢 會使得這個高所得的家庭呢可以自己提款 或是說雇主的一個補助進一步的累積資產 然後形成了逆向的補貼的效果會讓這一個富者越富 貧者越貧所以也沒有達到說 這一個要投資下一代的一個效果"},{"start":17322.25,"end":17349.677,"text":"那當然啦我們這個衛福部目前有所謂的一個兒少教育發展專一個帳戶那這個帳戶呢用意也是良好但是效果不好效果不好從這個2017年到現在的這段時間以來我們的這個開戶率是多少65%左右然後呢我們的開戶的人數大概才三萬六千多三萬九千多"},{"start":17352,"end":17372.716,"text":"整個數量還是很少啊就是說我們希望達到這個協助孩子脫貧那所以呢我們希望說他未來長大之後呢不要形成這個貧窮的代監的一個循環那可是呢你說這個18歲18年的時間一年最多才3萬嘛對不對"},{"start":17374.718,"end":17394.928,"text":"一年最多三萬 政府最多一萬五然後呢 家長最多也是一萬五一年最多三萬 18年就五十四萬五十四萬啦 18年之後你被通膨就不知道吃掉多少了所以他其實是 好像是幫你儲蓄但是他是存了一個是死錢他沒有投資的一個概念"},{"start":17397.009,"end":17421.944,"text":"有些委員提到就是說有希望有說像什麼轉大人ETF那個就具有投資的概念當然有一些條款還要再去做考論就是說我們的這個兒少的這個教育發展帳戶他只是幫你存錢但是存了54萬你說要幫他脫貧其實效果也是有限那你說這個要投資下一代要投資他54萬其實老實講"},{"start":17423.985,"end":17450.785,"text":"他沒有什麼投資的一個作用因為他就是沒有 因為他就是存 他不是投資他就是存一個死錢 那利率就是這麼低那所以到目前為止大家也談了這麼多了那如果我們先用現在衛福部現在正在推動這個兒少教育發展帳戶來講的話有什麼需要檢討的 可以改進的現在按照這個條例來做"},{"start":17453.318,"end":17469.798,"text":"跟委員幫我們現在也在檢討從三個方面去思考第一個就是說你怎麼去擴大適用的對象因為我們目前鎖定的低收入跟中低收入整個含納進來對象不過6萬人左右所以如何讓能夠照顧的人更多所以你們照顧的對象"},{"start":17472.741,"end":17501.2,"text":"社會對象會增加到什麼樣的範圍往邊緣戶就是擴大那個這個就是在邊緣的這個弱勢家庭增加多少人人數上的話大概會可以擴大到24萬大的話總人數可以到現在是6萬嘛可以有4倍就是差不多24萬這個是人數的擴大第二個是說能不能挹注多一點對啊最多政府一年就"},{"start":17502.44,"end":17525.891,"text":"1.5萬嘛對對對能不能多一點比如說我們去提高對波的相對的比例還是怎麼樣這個是第二個考量那第三個當然就是程序上怎麼讓他簡化然後更多的輔助讓他可以延續這個這個儲蓄這樣開戶因為我們現在開戶沒有那麼高那我怎麼來協助他讓我們的行政的程序更簡化"},{"start":17526.491,"end":17542.824,"text":"你們自己有委託這個學術單位做一個研究報告你有沒有看過那個研究報告有有有那個研究報告我看過我問一下現在是一戶只有一個小孩可以開戶嗎就是說符合資格的沒有只要符合資格有幾個每個都可以每個都可以就自己一個獨立的"},{"start":17543.544,"end":17568.963,"text":"不是自動開戶不是說符合資格就自動開戶沒有你自己要去申請對要申請那這個也是研究報告裡面提到就是說這個為什麼開戶率這麼低不高六成五的原因就是說他不是這個自動幫你開戶你符合資格了我就幫你開戶然後我錢就存進去沒有我自己還要去我自己還要去申請嘛對不對那如果改成用這個自動開戶的方式"},{"start":17571.415,"end":17598.615,"text":"這個申請率會再提高嗎因為你就算你範圍有擴大了你說從6萬變成24萬那搞不好開戶率還是那麼低啊能照顧的還是有限啊這個行政程序上我們會來檢討他們到底是要簡化程序還是說要改成變成是我們自動幫他開戶這也是簡化程序的一種啊這個也可以討論現在還沒有定案就對了還沒有定案但是如果自動開戶是不是會比較好一點"},{"start":17599.915,"end":17614.325,"text":"有利有弊啦因為這後續他還是要去存的當然要去存啊要讓他知道有這個戰後的存在那就是說政府先幫你存了嘛也不是說政府幫你存了那你不存你們現在的條例是說政府幫你存你不存你也是沒辦法領出來的啊"},{"start":17614.965,"end":17634.274,"text":"對就是開戶金我們也許可以思考怎麼讓他簡化一點或者是自動的幫他開了讓他知道我覺得那個比例你們自己要去算一下當然你提高政府的補助那對於相對貧窮這些家庭來講他也不一定有這些錢能夠相對投入"},{"start":17635.254,"end":17661.655,"text":"我覺得這個當然你們要去提到這個要去思考一下那不過就是說不論是我看這一個他們提出來這個條例裡面他們講到韓國的例子香港的例子其實都是排富的他們其實都是針對弱勢需要照顧的人來提出來的那香港他的這個兒童發展基金他還特別把商界把它加進來說政府家庭把商界把它加進來"},{"start":17662.435,"end":17684.292,"text":"就是說這個等於是除了政府家庭相對提撥之外他們民間可能都很有愛心 台灣也是一樣那他們把這個商界的錢也把它加進來所以他們這個餅就會做大了那未來有沒有機會朝向這個方式來做處理那鼓勵的這些企業當然我們就睡這方面我們給予看怎麼樣去做解免或是怎麼樣的"},{"start":17685.393,"end":17699.869,"text":"如果是只針對這一群比較弱勢者然後讓民間也可以去藝術他然後得到一些付稅的優勉這個我們可以來研究我們現在有這樣子鼓勵民間投入嗎因為我看就是只有政府跟家庭沒有把民間的力量拉進來"},{"start":17701.651,"end":17717.245,"text":"沒有跟這個帳戶結合確實是這樣我認為是可以結合因為其實民間都有這個愛心你看每次遇到什麼樣社會上的一些這個臨時有什麼樣的一些變化天災地變等等台灣人都很有愛心要捐錢你如果今天跟這些"},{"start":17718.226,"end":17734.246,"text":"企業獎就是說這個你我們現在有一些這些孩子要照顧那是不是你企業可以也一樣我們也相對提撥一些錢進來那我們在賦稅上面可以做一些減免把這個base把它做大把它這個餅做大我覺得你們也就討論一下"},{"start":17736.308,"end":17764.73,"text":"我們研究好之後再來提出那個修法這個就必須要涉及到修法就是說我現在先用你們這一個發展條例來做這一個以這個來做一個討論的基礎還有就是說講到投資其實你們的這個條例裡面其實都沒有投資的這個概念完全沒有就是說像這個香港或是韓國他們其實都還有理財不管是理財還是理債就是說你讓小孩子從小"},{"start":17765.33,"end":17784.311,"text":"就是有這個概念就是說我怎麼樣把我這個錢未來有這個機會讓它能夠增加這個教導小孩子理財或是理債的概念其實要從小就要開始不是當然你說玩不玩股票那是另外一回事但是你要知道說這個股票或是說基金或是怎麼樣"},{"start":17784.992,"end":17813.021,"text":"是他們未來是可以投資的一個標的你要先去理解再決定你要不要嘛但是我們的這個條例裡面其實沒有因為我們是儲蓄我們不是投資我看到我們這個條例裡面其實就是沒有因為你五四萬也不可以做什麼投資啊我覺得這方面要做處理好不好好那這個我再提到就是說現在我們已經正式邁入了這一個高齡社會嘛對不對超高齡社會"},{"start":17815.683,"end":17824.214,"text":"這個數據去年底就出來我們在2025年正式成為超高齡社會但同時呢這個台灣的人口年時降"},{"start":17825.759,"end":17849.749,"text":"連時降 台灣的這個總人口數也連續兩年負成長所以現在大家講說生不如死那這個也 我知道政府也花了很多的錢想要提升我們的這個出生率然後呢我們對這個進入超高齡社會我看我們政府長照3.0什麼也有在做但是呢"},{"start":17850.939,"end":17854.556,"text":"出生率就這麼低我們如果看結果來講的話出生率就是這麼低"},{"start":17856.038,"end":17882.537,"text":"那請教一下部長我看馬斯克他不是只有關心台灣他也有關心韓國他講說我們台灣人口數持續加速崩跌然後他講到韓國他就說未來成人尿布的數量如果超過嬰兒尿布的數量表示這個國家就是走錯路了我也很擔心說我們台灣是未來成人尿布的數量會超過嬰兒尿布的數量"},{"start":17884.699,"end":17904.663,"text":"如果我們現在已經有這個呈現生不如屬的一個現象了那請教一下部長你可以預測一下或是說你有什麼樣的一個信心基礎之下我們也花了這麼多經費來從我們小孩子從出生到他長大這段期間我們的出生率何時可以一直跌回升呢"},{"start":17905.799,"end":17926.772,"text":"跟委員說明確實我們現在這個挑戰很嚴峻雖然我們過去8年間投入這麼多對一個孩子我們平均算起來一個0到6歲的孩子投入大概120到180萬也不算少如果換回去的話一年也是在20萬左右再挹注這個家庭"},{"start":17927.452,"end":17948.721,"text":"那但是仍然是不見起色那我們再回頭再分析這個數字就發現那問題出在25歲到44歲的這一段女性她的這個未婚率不斷的在上升如果有走路有結婚過的那麼她的生育率的還是維持在83到90%所以是不婚"},{"start":17949.701,"end":17971.826,"text":"是不婚現在是在不婚的問題因為不婚率從1990年的21%到去年來到新高點52%所以等於然後不婚的當然這一群他的生育率就很低只是低於1%所以我們現在整個生育率下降最大的問題是在這個走入婚姻不婚這邊"},{"start":17973.326,"end":17996.396,"text":"那所以我們除了要催生之外我們連這個結婚這部分我們也要去加強那我們有什麼樣的計畫嗎因為現在問題已經不是到不生了現在是到不婚了難怪人家說不婚不生快樂一生那怎麼辦所以這個問題真的是很大我們現在對於這個不婚這個還沒有提出對策就對了"},{"start":17997.156,"end":18026.756,"text":"還要再努力還要再努力對所以我們剛才所講的都是講說我出生之後我們在孩子在肚子裡面的時候我們給你的照顧到長大成年有沒有至少到這一個六歲這個階段那我們現在是連前面那個階段不婚都有問題了對沒有錯所以在我們的今年開始2.0另外一個就是要去營造一個友善的職場企業這邊也要去鼓勵等等這些都要去努力的"},{"start":18027.276,"end":18048.607,"text":"不然大家都忙到都根本沒有時間交朋友也沒有辦法談論到這些問題好 最後再問一個問題好了我們這個 副社長宋署長在嗎 來來來不過我這個要問一下我們部長我們現在關於這個學齡前的兒童我們有一筆特別扣除額不過這個就是只有到6歲之前對不對 宋署長"},{"start":18050.1,"end":18058.771,"text":"對不對對 幼兒學前特別扣除我們現在有把它增加啦我們本來是這個15萬我們現在就是說第一個小孩多少兩個小孩多少 三個小孩最多是到60萬吧"},{"start":18060.219,"end":18078.736,"text":"本來一個小孩12萬現在提高到15萬第二個小孩以後可以到22.5萬這是6歲之前嘛等於扣7次一個小孩可以扣7次0歲開始嘛對不對那現在這個我要問一下我們石部長好了因為我們這個特別扣儲保值到這個學齡前"},{"start":18080.237,"end":18099.162,"text":"六歲之前那如果我們有這個機會把這個讓父母他這個養育小孩的這個壓力再降低再減輕我們再用特別扣除這部分給予他們一些減輕的壓力如果能夠到18歲之前我看我看我宋署長嘴巴馬上張大了"},{"start":18100.879,"end":18115.358,"text":"但是部長你覺得這個對於減輕壓力育兒壓力有沒有應該也會有幫忙有幫忙對 因為在這個這個小學的階段我們當然在六歲以前的話我們是給一些托育津貼或者是托育補助然後到"},{"start":18116.139,"end":18142.566,"text":"六歲開始入學之後那麼國民教育我們的費用還算低可是往後又可能這個失效所以這個怎麼延伸到支持到18歲這個是可以研究的方式可以 你也支持也贊同嘛因為我不用問那個受署長他已經反對的但是我們0到6歲每個月平均是花費是1.1萬6到12歲平均是到1.3萬以上"},{"start":18143.806,"end":18163.882,"text":"是越來越增加這個我們到財政再說我現在先問石部長就是說所以你也支持如果再提高把這個特別扣除了延伸到18歲以上照顧到18歲的這個支持這樣這個我們算是有共識啦好謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝部長好謝謝李坤成委員發言接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":18188.902,"end":18204.328,"text":"好主席有請部長請時部長好這麼也好部長好辛苦了還有所有的官員都辛苦了這個今天談這個台灣未來帳戶特別條例"},{"start":18207.918,"end":18236.285,"text":"他有他的這個立法的目的這個在相關的剛才說明也多很多這個衛護部相關的部會也都很清楚了這個最主要我們這個沒辦法動抱歉我們少子女化真的是一個非常的嚴重國安的危機"},{"start":18238.161,"end":18264.412,"text":"剛才部長也提了少子女化這樣的一個問題除了這個我們的勞工現在都很清楚了外勞一直進來勞工真的是缺工非常非常的嚴重我們這個相關的這些我們的剛才也提到"},{"start":18266.601,"end":18295.234,"text":"不分所以這個都是要去解決在這樣一個情形之下國民黨團跟立法院黨團提出相關這些台灣未來帳戶特別條例的草案主要還是要去解決少子女化的挑戰跨世代貧富差距希望能夠去建設台灣未來帳戶的制度"},{"start":18296.326,"end":18313.339,"text":"當然他這裡面會涉及到需要去討論的還可以大家可以及時廣益但是如果我們從這個我們看下一張這個衛福部的報告裡面來看的話這個從107年核定我國勺子擬化對策計畫經過了7年現在114年115年了"},{"start":18324.836,"end":18352.188,"text":"這個錢也變類了這總共將近6千億將近6千億但是我們真的是從整個人口數急速的下降然後出生率各方面對於我們先講這個除了這樣的一個少子女化的一個對策有新的想法嗎"},{"start":18353.675,"end":18381.322,"text":"去解決這個問題跟委員報告確實我們在過去這8年投注了很多在減輕這個育兒家庭的經濟負擔還有協助這個托育的資源的部件那這個是花了最多那另外一個就是生育的補助啦包含人工生殖啦等等這些那但是我們看到的就是說這個有生育的家庭維持住啦但是因為這個跟婚"},{"start":18382.122,"end":18402.458,"text":"台灣的這個不婚的問題更嚴峻這個有去研議對策嗎所以下一步我們應該要更著重在這個不婚這個問題上要去處理不然很難完全去解決這個生育率低的問題好 這個我們看下一張"},{"start":18404.291,"end":18430.847,"text":"這個衛福部這個教育行政已經送來了這個在提出這個法案之前賴總統也特別宣佈而且還提到了解決少子女化是其中之一但是我們如果一直去從組織當然組織是可以檢討的但是如果我們從過去"},{"start":18433.491,"end":18456.603,"text":"這個衛生署到衛福部然後也社會家庭署兒童家庭署去解決這些問題如果我們去回顧我們回顧過去孩子生太多就鼓勵大家兩個恰恰好在那個年代也沒有成立一個機關"},{"start":18458.206,"end":18482.872,"text":"都是透過鄉鎮公所的那些公職衛生所的人員去宣傳對不對所以我們中央一直成立然後一直擴大但是地方政府還是沒有還是維持那個樣子所以這個部分是一個整體性的讓這個機關可以檢討但是他不要辦法去解決真正的問題"},{"start":18485.729,"end":18511.167,"text":"我不知道這樣的成立這個署會增加人數會增加嗎隨著我們業務上的需要還是要做一些人力的調整特別是這個以這個兒少及家庭署來講他除了是把一些業務做整合之外更希望那麼更專業的更聚焦的對這個兒少的問題包含從健康到他的福利"},{"start":18511.707,"end":18530.542,"text":"到保護到發展因為今天不是這個為主我只不過是請衛福部包括相關的官員怎麼樣去解決真正要解決的問題所以這個部分也希望能夠去考慮我們看下一張"},{"start":18532.472,"end":18555.818,"text":"當然我們過去在107年6月6號公布施行兒童及少年未來教育與發展丈夫的條例本席當初也有提出相關的意見當然原住民的部分沒有被納入好 我們看下一條下一條這個部分實施到現在當然時間的關係我就不多說了這個也請這個"},{"start":18559.855,"end":18586.068,"text":"衛福部提供我們下一張提供這個目前的執行的人數然後既有原住民身份的到底有多少因為之前我本來有提修正的條文大家說還要先執行一段時間現在已經執行這麼多年了107年現在已經115年了是不是請提供這樣的一個數據"},{"start":18587.148,"end":18608.701,"text":"我們再來跟園民會討論比對一下我們要那個比對一下才知道因為我們在身份上並沒有特別註記副政司 內政部副政司也可以比對對 去比對一下這個身份好 謝謝 謝謝委員我們再提供給委員 謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員發言請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":18620.342,"end":18621.525,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":18627.321,"end":18649.836,"text":"市部長辛苦了剛剛我想昭緯已經透過他的簡報很完整的分析跟討論就是說我們今天討論這個未來帳戶的一個部分那本席也跟大家都一樣其實我們很關注這個出生率的問題少子女化的問題但我想先釐清一下到底現在此時此刻我們衛福部具體認為說台灣現在少子女化的原因到底是什麼"},{"start":18651.448,"end":18679.2,"text":"剛剛也跟委員報告我們過去這幾年的努力主要是在支持有婚育的家庭育兒的壓力把它下降所以我們從生育的補助部長你還是沒有聽清楚我的問題那我們先看起來不是 部長你先聽完我的問題因為我覺得這個問題才是最重要的也是今天所有人的報告裡面沒有秀出來的到底我們少子女化大家不生孩子的原因是什麼"},{"start":18680.841,"end":18695.536,"text":"應該是說我們統計的分析從25歲到44歲就是屬於四育適合生育的年齡的婦女來看如果有婚姻關係或者曾經有婚姻關係當然生育率是維持住了"},{"start":18696.416,"end":18721.929,"text":"並沒有特別下降但是在沒有婚姻的在這一段年齡沒有婚姻的他的生育率是很低都是低於1%那從這幾年看起來這個不婚的比例正在持續的上升從1990年的時候這一個年齡層的這個未婚的大概是21%到去年來到新高是52%所以這個部分就很低"},{"start":18722.489,"end":18742.216,"text":"所以我們的這一段年齡的婦女等於是拉低了整個生育率統計上就拉低很多人講就是個人的生活價值觀譬如說他晚婚或是不婚的一個改變而造成說他沒有結婚或者是認為是說婚姻跟家庭的觀念改變"},{"start":18742.976,"end":18761.489,"text":"就是以前認為說一定要結婚但是現在就覺得不一定男生也好女生也好可能都沒有這樣的想法好 那撇開這兩個因為這兩個面向可能要跟內政部一起合作可能要一起努力變成是說政府要如果說我們認為這真的很重要也認為是說這個是能夠救台灣生育率我們甚至要成立"},{"start":18762.31,"end":18780.508,"text":"我們甚至要支持鼓勵大家徵友互相聯誼但過去其實我們不管是地方政府民政體系也都有做這樣的部分嘛可是本席再拉回來講如果說已經生完已經結婚了他到底不生孩子有很多是父母他結婚但是沒有生孩子的主要理由"},{"start":18781.309,"end":18793.824,"text":"我们看起来还是最主要是这个育儿的这个成本经济的经济的跟机会成本就是未来他教养的部分认为说他孩子能不能不要说"},{"start":18795.269,"end":18817.796,"text":"這個跟他自己受一樣的苦他可以有更好的一個求學更好的生活 更好的環境是不是對 另外就是機會成本因為他在養育的過程當中可能會喪失的比如說他的升遷機會那麼這個就就業的機會等等這一些這個就是所謂的機會成本所以我們在這一段這個政策裡面還有一段就是需要"},{"start":18818.676,"end":18841.85,"text":"創造那個友善的職場譬如說它更有彈性的運營留停制度更有彈性的上班彈性的這些我們有沒有在做我們都有在做嘛對 在我們現在的這個2.0今年開始就是特別把勞動部還有內政部這些都會一起進來要努力好 部長你剛提到"},{"start":18843.311,"end":18859.296,"text":"你剛剛提到兩個部分一個是經濟養育額的一個經濟成本一個是機會成本他可能會有他的一個升遷管道那我們現在其實都在做本期為什麼還是要開宗明義問這個問題因為我想要的是如同醫生在看診"},{"start":18860.736,"end":18875.863,"text":"對症下藥就是說我們一定很多的委員在那邊鬼扯然後講明明說未來帳戶是對於全民以及希望能夠解決梢子化問題解決經濟的負擔的相關部分或是給他低桶金但是"},{"start":18876.283,"end":18896.791,"text":"要故意鬼扯說是什麼跟這個未成年低收入戶的這個兒童跟少年未來的教育發展帳戶一樣其實我覺得這個概念是完全不同的因為我們現在在推的兒童跟少年未來教育及發展帳戶是要幫助低收中低收的孩子但他要解決的比較是他們在生活成長過程"},{"start":18898.277,"end":18922.058,"text":"而現在講的是整體全台灣的出生率本席不會苛責因為這是要共同面對但是你花了過去這幾年107年到114年花了5900多億是事實我不會講說這5900多億就是浪費了我不會這樣講但是我相信部長你也應該可以理解跟承認如果沒花這5900多億狀況會比現在更慘吧"},{"start":18924.981,"end":18933.573,"text":"是 所以但是我們現在重點在哪裡重點是我們已經花了五千九百多億了可是我們的結果是最後一名"},{"start":18935.36,"end":18958.205,"text":"這都是事實我們是最後一名花了5900多億我們還是最後一名可是我不會說不能花這5900多億因為如果說沒有花的話可能我們最後一名還要更墊底對不對好可是現在的問題就在於我們已經花了5900多億了還是拿到最後一名那代表過去有做這些事情有沒有成效有成效但是不大"},{"start":18959.085,"end":18986.132,"text":"那我們現在面臨的問題除了之前的5900多億還是要持續推動該補貼的要補貼政府之前一直講0到6歲國家養可以持續做但是除了這以外如果我們沒有新的思維或是新的政策工具的話我們沒有辦法翻身我們還是一樣最後一名我們不會今天突然間大家過兩個月過三個月之後遇到Mr.Right然後就結婚了"},{"start":18987.079,"end":19013.659,"text":"不會轉角遇到愛嘛現實生活沒有那麼的那個而且更重要的是愛情是一回事但是你說要養育孩童等等他就變成是很理性的思考所以今天才會變成是說不管是在野黨提出來黨團提出來或者是有執政黨的委員他也提出類似的概念的時候那我們要思考說這對於您剛剛提到的經濟跟機會成本有沒有幫助"},{"start":19014.099,"end":19027.942,"text":"或是有沒有讓這一些年輕的爸爸媽媽覺得說這一件事情是有幫到他的讓他在思考未來下一代生育的時候他可以更想的是說那我們能不能來生小孩我覺得這才是關鍵"},{"start":19029.926,"end":19050.703,"text":"因為它是一個大規模的政策的部分而對政下要很重要部長您剛也提到了經濟一定是一個面向所以怎麼樣讓父母都覺得是說政府有幫我經濟上有支持經濟上有支持分兩種一種是政府直接補貼經費但我們過去沒在做 有在做嘛"},{"start":19051.323,"end":19077.653,"text":"但是也不能無底洞啊對不對一定會馬上就講是說我們政府財政有限所以說我不能無底洞如果說真的我們今天可以挖到石油一戶5萬塊10萬塊20萬都發但重點是沒有嘛那我們就要思考另外一個方向是說我們今天用一個未來帳戶政府出一點民間自己也出一點然後幫小朋友存錢並且透過基金的管理讓這個存的錢是有"},{"start":19078.593,"end":19096.178,"text":"合理的收益 當他18歲的時候他可以拿到第一桶金 而這第一桶金是可以幫他不管是還學貸 不管是創業 不管是做人生的規劃 出國留學讓他有一個基本的經濟能力我覺得這不會是壞事"},{"start":19098.191,"end":19117.026,"text":"所以本席現在講完只是想是說我很懇求跟拜託為什麼今天一定要留下來質詢就是因為我認為這個東西方向對的話不要考慮說一定是在野黨提出我就是完全就是反對執政黨提出執政黨也有委員提出我們共同可以討論不足的地方大家來修正"},{"start":19118.089,"end":19133.096,"text":"不足的地方或說有思考不周延不嚴謹的地方大家來你給意見我們大家來修正但是這個方向如果是對的可以對症下藥解決現在青年朋友的心理的困擾的時候該支持該推動要推動部長"},{"start":19137.185,"end":19161.423,"text":"我們會來做很審慎的評論因為本席真的還是希望症狀在哪裡就是您應該是醫生相關背景嘛到底病因是什麼先找出原因我們才能投藥嘛還是要對症下藥是那如果說我做去已經投了5900多億的藥我不會講沒有效我還是再次強調因為如果沒有花這5900多億我看可能現在會更差"},{"start":19162.384,"end":19187.91,"text":"但是投了5900多億的藥之後我們還到結果是最後一名那就代表我們這個藥除了該必要性的做持續做以外該換藥了該引進新的療程新的方式來燉真下藥才能夠真的我們一起努力讓台灣能夠解決至少往少子化往上就是出生率往上的方向邁進好嗎好我們來檢討謝謝"},{"start":19195.311,"end":19198.813,"text":"謝謝謝謝洪夢凱委員發言接下來請張雅玲委員發言謝謝主席我們邀請部長請示部長好我剛剛聽了"},{"start":19214.062,"end":19238.921,"text":"我剛聽了洪孟凱委員的這個質詢我覺得我非常肯定啦肯定洪孟凱委員的質詢就是說大家在野黨或執政黨版本都有提出不同的想法那我覺得真的就是要細緻的討論因為我在2024年吧我看過一份研究報告在國際的期刊上面他有講到就是全世界不管是他們研究了北歐東南亞到美國等等"},{"start":19239.662,"end":19252.574,"text":"他們徹底的研究然後發現說如果你要激起你的生育率你的國家投資要佔你的GDP 3%那我們剛剛講的5000多億其實一直都只有整個整體對於兒少的投資只有2%"},{"start":19254.522,"end":19274.558,"text":"所以這個基本上從這個數字看起來我們是有gap那再來就是大家也提到說韓國韓國那我也要跟大家再來做一個我覺得也是大家可以做一個釐清啦在那份研究報告裡面特別針對韓國做了一個研究當時韓國在整個GDP的投資呢對俄商的投資只有1%"},{"start":19275.859,"end":19293.38,"text":"所以他當時就有講如果韓國加碼投資之後他很快會有個生育率的boost一個高峰會先出來但是後面最終還是會回到其他的國家如果沒有達到整體%超過3%的話我不曉得部長有沒有看過這個相關的研究對 有類似這樣所以我們一直這幾年在提升這個對兒少這邊的預算"},{"start":19296.626,"end":19317.361,"text":"對所以這個其實是過去那其實一個基本的保底那份研究也有講到有些基礎的工作是要先做所以我想這部分也是要讓召委知道說那是一個保底的基本盤的工作要做不是沒有效那再來就是說剛剛其實有很多的委員其實都一直有提出很多的想法那我這邊也要再懇請我們的主席呢是可以來召開公聽會"},{"start":19319.422,"end":19348.014,"text":"讓大家來集思廣益因為版本現在還是有想法還是有蠻大的落差啦那開公聽會呢也不是拖延時間而是集思廣益讓我們做所為可以更貼近民眾的需求那現在呢其實行政院也有在一直不停的在說因為去年有許多執政黨的委員都提出了相關的質詢我想上次我質詢的時候部長也有聽到就是行政院都已經說他們會去做擴大了所以大家其實都是要往這個方向來前進只是說怎麼做"},{"start":19349.114,"end":19359.625,"text":"這個做法是要一起來好好的討論所以我再次強調說我們希望可以來爭取更多的公聽會那再來最後還有一件事情是"},{"start":19361.294,"end":19382.306,"text":"我想如果我們今天我們在野黨的委員真的很在乎生育率因為今天整天我聽到了蠻多質詢都是一直在講少子化 少子化生育率 國家危機等等的那我們總預算是不是可以趕快來審一下裡面就有生育給付的差額不然我們基本上就只是空口說白話嘴巴說我很在乎可是實質上我沒有作為"},{"start":19383.647,"end":19393.657,"text":"所以這邊還是要請藍白的立法委員實質的去審查這才是真正的去回應到國家整體面對到的問題那接下來就進入到我今天的質詢我的遙控器"},{"start":19398.547,"end":19423.366,"text":"我想這個我的版本我現在大概簡略的說了一下其實我想我的版本那個部長已經非常熟悉應該已經看過了那我想我今天來講一下為什麼我今天覺得這個現在的國民黨委員應該說在黨委員提出來這個台灣未來賬戶會有一些問題因為他其實是看起來好像是為孩子好但是呢我要講這還是對財政公平性跟實務上都存在很高的風險"},{"start":19425.407,"end":19453.999,"text":"這個不是理念上的問題而是國家負擔能不能負擔的問題因為我們現在草案規劃13年上限4500億的特別預算呢而且允許一用稅計剩餘於舉債我想這個 今天主計好像已經主計在嗎主計在喔 我想這待會也可以說一下這可不可行啦齁那 但是我想要先問部長喔你知道說為什麼英國他們後來不選擇用這樣子的方向來做呢"},{"start":19455.322,"end":19462.175,"text":"也是因為他的財政沒有辦法支付這樣的龐大的預算壓力下所以他後來就停了"},{"start":19463.537,"end":19485.577,"text":"對我想我這邊也就做個清楚的說明一下這個兒童的信託基金開始它也是個普及式的一個補助但是後來也是因為財政壓力之下在2011年它全面的停止政府的撥補就轉為現在新的制度是用減稅的部分因為我想大家都非常清楚歐洲國家是稅非常非常高他們認為這樣子的方式才能夠真正的去鼓勵"},{"start":19487.899,"end":19509.422,"text":"所以我想在整個國際上面來比較的話目前的台灣不管你是新加坡 加拿大 美國或是英國來比我們是唯一一個採取普及發放 高額補助以及政府擔保收益的國家所以我今天早上才會說這個是一個大雜燴的法案它好像看起來是把大家的版本都彙整在一起"},{"start":19509.702,"end":19538.694,"text":"可是他就沒有考量到我們所謂的財政紀律的問題以及可不可以執行持續的執行下去因為像英國的這個版本就讓我們發現它是一個畫大餅可是長期來說吃不到就變成是看得到吃不到所以我覺得我們今天要做這件事情我們還是要回到到底哪個樣子的制度是可以持續的穩健的所以我想要請主計講一下就是可以簡單回應我一下就是說這樣子的可以一用稅計剩餘跟舉證這是可以的嗎"},{"start":19540.987,"end":19564.118,"text":"他法裡面規定可以用稅期剩餘是沒有錯但是我們現在已經沒有稅期剩餘了我們現在稅期剩餘是你然後114年度我們的稅科收入財政部今天也在場估計上次聽到的估計數是應該中央的部分大會少收大概四五百億所以114也沒有稅期剩餘"},{"start":19565.933,"end":19582.599,"text":"了解好那但是這個也沒有辦法持續的舉債嘛對吧我們是這個應該還是因為他是這邊可以他也可以允許舉債可是我們現在還有舉債的空間嗎他這裡的裡面的舉債他是排除當年度15%但是這個期間這個期間還是要受到15%的限制沒錯"},{"start":19586.68,"end":19613.582,"text":"但是我們目前的E5的數字算出來它的空間還剩下1800億但是我們的軍購每年大概是1560億扣掉這個軍購我們的額度大概剩下不到300億的空間但是我們每年的稅出在公共建設或是科技發展或是我們的一些依法律的支出每年大概要成早5%左右這個數字算出來大概1000多億所以基本上"},{"start":19614.342,"end":19616.444,"text":"已經沒有容納這個空間 以上報告"},{"start":19644.142,"end":19672.693,"text":"而且他就是當幫富人減稅嘛對吧因為我們現在真正弱勢的家庭是連基本生活都很吃力根本就不可能再多存了嘛而是你現在這個版本你也沒有針對弱勢來去做特別處理可是你針對高所得去幫他做減稅那國際的相關的研究都已經在講了在類似的制度之下排名前5%的高排名前5%高的家庭往往掌握將近30%的一個賬戶總存款所以我想問一下部長您針對今天這樣子的一個草案我們有沒有研究過"},{"start":19673.433,"end":19692.708,"text":"他會不會造成貧富差距越來越大如果18年後富有家庭的賬戶是弱勢家庭的好幾倍這還叫做公平的起跑線嗎所以剛剛在我們的書面報告才會去特別提到我們之前推動的這個兒少的未來教育及發展賬戶我們確實應該要去"},{"start":19694.309,"end":19715.737,"text":"去檢討讓他能夠照顧更多的弱勢家庭是要改變這個貧窮繼承的這一種階級複製但是如果是按照目前完全是普惠式的來講怕會造成逆補貼的情形這個是我們不樂見所以這個是我們在報告裡面會來努力"},{"start":19716.497,"end":19737.376,"text":"好 那我想就是這樣講得非常的清楚就是說我們如果要講在公平的起跑險的話我們就應該要針對這件事情來實質的回應而不是說我們不好好的討論然後就這樣子去不開公聽會然後就讓這樣子的事情過去我覺得這樣是無助於社會的討論那再來就是說我想再請教一下部長就是"},{"start":19738.686,"end":19752.084,"text":"因為那個趙歐主席已經站起來了所以我就 我看他前面都沒有站起來但是我的部分他已經站起來了所以我想他可能是要真的嗎 前面是講幾分鐘 洪孟愷委員好 謝謝你喔"},{"start":19753.069,"end":19768.565,"text":"好 那我想就是說我們現在的我想我今天是針對大家的版本提出建議啦那我想這個對大家如果真的是有心要來好好討論的話其實都可以再來納進來我也不是做任何的無所謂的謾罵"},{"start":19770.126,"end":19798.855,"text":"我想就是說我們現在可能不是一個新儲蓄而是有錢人的資產轉移的工具因為許多的研究都指出這樣子的一個制度常出現擠出效應家庭只是把原本要存給孩子的錢換成一個更有利的賬戶再多拿政府的補助與稅賦的優惠所以如果這些錢本來會存到這麼多的話政府為什麼要用公共預算來補貼呢這合理性您的看法是"},{"start":19800.495,"end":19824.402,"text":"對確實是如此就是國人的跟這些制度還得考慮到各國的本身的民情的差異性那以國人來講有兩個差異一個是複稅率是低的就是我們大概有近80%都是在5%的複稅以下了沒錯是那第二個是說"},{"start":19827.365,"end":19842.603,"text":"這個國人的儲蓄率本來就高的我們的儲蓄率本來就是高的國家所以是不是要透過這個工具再去鼓勵儲蓄全民儲蓄還是我們來把這個資源用在對弱勢者的照顧來強化"},{"start":19843.744,"end":19867.796,"text":"對 我想部長剛剛講得非常清楚就是說因為其實各國雖然英國 新加坡 美國很多國家都有但是我覺得各國的狀況還是要考量它的背景跟脈絡上面的一個差異不然我們只有實際看到別人的東西就趕快全部把它抄一抄之後全部組裝一起之後可能反而變成一個拼裝車無法上路 無法真正的執行所以我還是最後啦 懇請我們的主席召委"},{"start":19868.476,"end":19886.643,"text":"可以來辦公廳會啦 因為民間有很多的團體都有在倡議這樣子的事情 聽聽大家的意見不是一件壞事 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝張雅玲委員發言那接下來請牛許廷委員 牛許廷委員 牛許廷委員不在請王振旭委員詢答"},{"start":19896.897,"end":19902.651,"text":"好 感謝主席那我想部長已經在動身了就請部長"},{"start":19907.696,"end":19929.233,"text":"已經連續兩個小時了 部長辛苦我想所有長官們都很辛苦不過針對今天趙委所安排的這個未來彰化法案的這個答詢還是跟部長來討論一下那第二個部分就是有關於不定次專科的政策相關的部分也馬上部長來能夠廣納各方面的意見"},{"start":19930.314,"end":19949.315,"text":"那針對第一個主題就是少子女化對策真的必須要審慎規劃我相信大家都會認同少子女化的對策我們除了以現有的基礎之外必須要有更好的想法或者是做法希望能夠來改善這個少子女化目前帶來的困境"},{"start":19949.935,"end":19965.298,"text":"可是我們也真了解針對今天排審的這個國民黨團跟民眾黨團台灣未來賬戶特別條例的草案的第七條裡面就希望能夠要分13年那編列至少上限是4500億啟動資金1130億還有每年編列226億的這個條文"},{"start":19972.92,"end":19987.968,"text":"我們也想要請部長再次說明說這樣的話對於我們現在在編列或執行中的原本的這個少子女化對策計畫或者是其他醫療攝護預算會發生什麼樣的排擠效應跟委員報告 當然這個"},{"start":19989.729,"end":20004.72,"text":"這個啟動資金這個一千多億這個規模其實是不小的那麼以我們現在的長照而言我們才超過一千億而已所以這個規模是不小一定會有排擠的效果出來"},{"start":20005.541,"end":20024.013,"text":"那麼以我們現行在推動的方向來講最主要是針對這個弱勢家庭的協助這些兒少弱勢家庭的兒少讓他能夠脫離這個繼承貧窮這樣的困境所以我們針對的是弱勢那至於說這個補貼的對象"},{"start":20026.374,"end":20053.046,"text":"幫忙的對象再擴大這個我們一定會來檢討那但是對於這種普惠是我們是以目前的這個設計上我們是比較擔憂一點了解所以其實針對兒少預算的這個文件擴張大家都非常期待那剛剛在內委員也特別提到如果依照目前OECD國家平均是6個百分比來看的話事實上我們2024年所編列預算是5923億"},{"start":20055.227,"end":20080.183,"text":"佔了GDP是2.33%當然相較於期待的那個%是還不夠所以我們期待這方面能夠持續的來加強不過我們也可以再細看一下在這個5923億裡面的平均看起來各方面是有不一樣這個福利佔了19%健康照護佔了6%教育是佔了73%事實上是不少"},{"start":20080.783,"end":20105.032,"text":"那保護是1%所以錢要怎麼來怎麼花其實這是非常重要尤其您今天的書面報告裡面認為這個政策的關鍵在於資源怎麼用要先照顧誰剛剛部長也做了說明那其實我們在過去這七八年來對少子化對策的部分中央總共編列了5931.18億元這個大家都很清楚"},{"start":20105.552,"end":20129.8,"text":"那針對於這個行政院將來是不是還會持續的針對少子女化對策計畫在做更穩健的增長這個其實我相信部長一定會說是而且是會努力的再往這邊來增長那對於現在的這個保證政策如果說因為我們有這些這樣的特別條例進來的話這個排擠會不會是也是您擔心的事情"},{"start":20130.32,"end":20149.14,"text":"對 因為這個資源永遠是有限沒有辦法無限的擴張所以我們必須做選擇哪一個是先後然後哪些是要優先那剛剛其實那個主計總署的長官也已經說明了我們現在那麼已經到位的預算"},{"start":20149.52,"end":20175.745,"text":"那還要再新增的時候我們都是要去衡量這個孰先孰後那麼誰先應該要先優先那麼急迫性的要來先處理好那再來這部分可能要麻煩我們教育部的許副署長如果有在現場的話就麻煩許副署長也來幫我們說明一下其實我們知道政府教育經費佔政府支出的比例很明顯的看得出來"},{"start":20178.277,"end":20197.972,"text":"我國是佔了22.5%就是說在整體的政府支出裡面教育經費佔了22.5%美國是佔了10.3%日本7.1%韓國是11.7%OECD國家平均是10%左右所以顯然美國高等教育的負擔還有醫療的負擔"},{"start":20200.114,"end":20218.174,"text":"我們比較起來我國其實這個佔比是高的那我們也了解他們會提出這個大而美這個法案是我們這次兩黨他們參考一個重要的這個對象之一那我們也理解其實美國的相關的一些"},{"start":20221.611,"end":20249.736,"text":"國內的問題跟我們所面對的問題是不太一樣的所以如果我們要參考這個美國大而美的這個法案的話我們其實政府教育經費的比例已經佔了相當高的比例那比較重要的是高等教育因為在美國來講它可能在中小學以前的非高等教育所佔的佔比不會差太多可是我們看到的是高等教育美國就佔了3.4%那台灣其實過去都已經佔到將近7%"},{"start":20250.956,"end":20275.538,"text":"所以如果我們要參考這個大而美法案來做這個法案的推進的話事實上我們還是需要非常的謹慎那針對於這個政府教育監會教育的比例的部分可不可以請副處長再進一步說明比如說透過這樣的努力以後那這個助學貸款我其實是第一年有機會去申請到助學貸款的一個學生"},{"start":20276.178,"end":20293.56,"text":"那我畢業以後經過五年才把助學貸款能夠全部還完所以針對於這部分可不可以請署署長也進一步說明我們這個教育監會目前這幾年來在處理的部分針對這樣的狀況有哪一些具體的數字也可以讓民眾可以多瞭解"},{"start":20296.828,"end":20310.617,"text":"跟委員報告因為教育部的業務牽涉是非常非常多單位那今天主要來出席的是國教署那如果以就國教署的年度預算115年今年那我們的年度預算是到達1546億喔"},{"start":20313.679,"end":20328.558,"text":"那這裡面如果以委員剛剛所關心的對學生的協助那我們在高中的部分高中部分對高中的學費啦或是我們對弱勢的一些雜費的協助在高中大概就有111億"},{"start":20330.62,"end":20351.446,"text":"那大學的部分就目前掌握到的數據大學在協助學生的就學這些費用裡面那也高達114年度所編的預算也高達198億左右所以這是目前大概所掌握到對於學生就學這裡面應該也包含就學貸款"},{"start":20351.866,"end":20367.314,"text":"那委員所提及的相關更細緻的資料那會後我可以請在我們部裡面的相關單位跟署裡面相關單位再提供給委員參考因為這個提案的初衷是要改善少子女化我們的目標是要透過這樣的方式來改善少子女化來減輕這個家長育兒負擔"},{"start":20369.475,"end":20397.357,"text":"那草案第19條裡面也說明說要18歲以後才能夠提領所以是為了要因應高等教育過程所需要的一些經費那事實上家長在孩子0到12歲期間最迫切的育兒支出比如說托育 生養費用並沒有及時的注意所以法案本身如果說針對18歲以後才能提領的話那對於前面這部分沒有及時的處理到"},{"start":20398.037,"end":20413.769,"text":"對於高等教育的部分反而目前台灣已經做非常多相關的這個協助所以我們認為要謹慎的原因部分就是也要認同對於教育的投資的部分應該如何來處理因為18歲的支出是屬於教育跟創業的資產累積"},{"start":20415.53,"end":20430.522,"text":"所以年輕人不敢生是因為擔心小孩18歲沒有錢創業還是擔心奶粉錢生意會太貴這個我們先後順序就好像部長所提到資源要怎麼應用可能是非常重要的那謝謝副署長請回座"},{"start":20430.962,"end":20446.107,"text":"那有關於這個支出的部分到底是要無差別的發放還是要能夠做一個好的方案目前發行的這個兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶裡面目前是政府跟家長是1比1的底部"},{"start":20446.807,"end":20473.313,"text":"然後對象是以低收入跟中低收入的家庭為對象我想階層的流動非常重要重點還是希望能夠讓這些相對低收入的這些家庭透過政府的協助能夠讓階層的流動變為可能所以強化似乎還是目前的這個施政重點那這部分部長認不認同在這個強化的過程裡面如何有其他的方案來進來的話我們如何能夠謹慎的來討論"},{"start":20476.074,"end":20493.512,"text":"當年在這個條例通過然後開辦的時候確實是如同委員所提到的是這樣的概念階級流動的概念沒有錯但是實施下來確實也發生一些瓶頸包含我們覆蓋率一直沒有辦法再突破"},{"start":20494.153,"end":20517.501,"text":"那麼受惠的人數也是有限所以我們現在也在進行檢討看看如何來擴大可以受惠的人數那麼這個挹注上能夠更多一點那麼程序上能夠更簡化一點等等這些我們都在檢討中我們希望來進行好 那就麻煩部長繼續努力那最後一個小問題其實也不一定是小問題"},{"start":20518.737,"end":20538.591,"text":"就是說在今年2025年的11月14號預告修正專科醫師分科跟真神辦法裡面增加了兩個專科一個是感染科一個是重症醫學科我想重要的背景是來自於COVID對於社會還有整體的造成的影響所以才能夠透過這兩個專科來讓我們整體的醫療能夠有更好的這個照護"},{"start":20544.275,"end":20566.668,"text":"那部長剛上任的時候也提到要建立不定的次專科的制度來精準的投入相關的資源那這部分不知道目前針對次專科的政策的進度可不可以利用這個時間讓我們多了解那這個過程裡面其實也希望能夠有更廣泛的來請各個專科醫學會來做相關的這些意見的參考"},{"start":20567.268,"end":20582.519,"text":"比如說像安寧緩和醫療大家都認為這是對未來的社會很重要的一個相關的次專科或者是專科那這部分部長有沒有一些想法或者是可以讓民眾理解的部分"},{"start":20582.819,"end":20597.397,"text":"好 跟委員說明確實我們在這個月底應該就會發布兩個新的次專科一個就是感染科一個是重症醫學那這兩個科當然就像委員提到的在這個疫後這個COVID之後我們"},{"start":20598.838,"end":20625.441,"text":"深深的感受到這個感控的重要性感染人才的培育這個是很重要所以我們把它列入再加上近年這個重症照護的人力的流失我們需要呢那麼一方面是要來這個肯定投入重症科的醫師那也希望掌握這個人力那麼來做一些相對應的政策跟鼓勵的措施那後續還是會繼續的擴大"},{"start":20628.302,"end":20650.568,"text":"這個過去也曾經開過幾次會議當然在會議的討論過程當中有一些次專科已經有共識有一些次專科的共識度還有落差我們會持續的來討論會有在下一階段重點會先從在人力掌握度上我們需要有政策介入的會考量的條件"},{"start":20654.929,"end":20669.415,"text":"麻煩部長專科跟次專科還是不同所以我想這個部長應該可以掌握得更清楚好那就謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝委員好謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請圖權吉委員發言好謝謝主席那一樣請石部長請石部長"},{"start":20684.037,"end":20704.13,"text":"土葛委員好部長在1月7號那時候在答詢的時候當然那個時候部長說我們針對少子女化對策訂定這個計畫那時候經費編列是4484億那當然後來你當天晚上好像有發影片澄清說"},{"start":20705.211,"end":20720.788,"text":"而针对少子女化对策计划总共是编列了5931亿所以这5931亿是正确的数字就是年度的落差4000多亿是没有算到114年如果把114年都算进来的话是5931亿"},{"start":20723.159,"end":20741.866,"text":"所以後來算到這8年來總共是5931億所以針對我們2024年我們看統計資料顯示我們台灣人口的成長率2024那時候世界排名是191名也就是全世界倒數46名"},{"start":20743.146,"end":20757.78,"text":"那出生率是世界排名220名也是倒數第9名 只有7.3%那我們也知道其實現在全世界各國都在努力提高自己國家的生育率"},{"start":20758.3,"end":20778.005,"text":"那像韓國其實這幾年他們也在處理那我們也了解以後韓國在2025年他針對這個生育率確實就已經有在提升了所以台灣目前少子化我們也知道是很嚴重的國安危機所以我們才成立這個少子女化辦公室可是後來我們發現2025"},{"start":20780.966,"end":20793.275,"text":"幾乎每個月都比2024每個月幾乎都少差不多2000人所以我們在2024年出生人口數還有13萬4千多人可是到2025年就剩10萬7千人"},{"start":20797.158,"end":20816.053,"text":"這一年來就出生就少了兩萬六千人所以看起來台灣少子化這嚴重的國安危機那不知道部長有沒有瞭解我們年輕人為什麼對結婚生子這個意願為什麼這個到底是什麼問題讓他們不願意去結婚生子"},{"start":20816.713,"end":20831.122,"text":"我想這個原因非常多啦這個很多元那不外乎有一些是這個剛剛提到的經濟的考量那或者是職涯發展機會成本的問題等等這個因素倒是真的是不少"},{"start":20832.043,"end":20858.244,"text":"所以我们有看过卫福部在2024年6月的统计针对这也去做过数据每100人中大概有60个人都认为是经济负担太重也就是他们认为说从怀孕到生小孩再把小孩养大成人这个费用非常高而且现在物价逐年攀升对于我们现在年轻人他都认为"},{"start":20859.105,"end":20877.04,"text":"為了自己為了小孩他要去負這個責任要負擔的費用真的很大而且養小孩真的這個費用對他們來講是非常龐大所以對於結婚生小孩他們都非常恐懼那我們也可以知道就像剛剛講我們2018年到2025年總共編列了5931億那這些錢都用在津貼用在補助可是"},{"start":20886.107,"end":20895.375,"text":"看起來他們還是認為經濟負擔太重還是他們最主要的目標那看來我們補助那麼多錢好像也看不到什麼成效應該是說"},{"start":20897.114,"end":20925.061,"text":"可能還不夠也不一定力度要再加強也不一定另外他不是只有育兒的負擔還有他的生活的負擔還有在工作職涯上的發展機會成本的問題這些也都要一併考慮所以我們現在的這個2.0的這個少子女對策行動方案也會一直在努力的是讓那個友善的育兒職場那個部分也必須要改善"},{"start":20925.621,"end":20953.894,"text":"包含這個居住的這個住宅的政策等等這些的都要一併一併納進來我們過去是主要比較重的是放在這個0到6歲這一段的育兒的這個成本這個經濟的補貼上對啊 所以所以我說我們可以看到現在世代的年輕人當然因為他們現在賺錢也很不好也很辛苦也很不好賺錢那所以他們要"},{"start":20954.954,"end":20972.627,"text":"為了要照顧自己然後如果要結婚要生小孩對他們來講是一個非常沉重的負擔所以當然這一部分我們當然政府目前現在面臨少子化危機這嚴重的國安危機我們當然要想辦法去處理所以我們當然除了津貼補助"},{"start":20974.068,"end":20998.698,"text":"方面之外我們當然就希望能夠從更多的方面來鼓勵年輕人結婚生小孩那目前我們看得到我們是針對零歲到六歲的部分去照顧他們所以我們才想說是不是在六歲之後的育兒方面我們是不是應該要來重視應該要研認一套方式怎麼樣陪伴我們這"},{"start":20999.418,"end":21026.501,"text":"年輕的家庭怎樣子幫他把這個小孩子一樣撫養長大 減輕他們的負擔在我們這個115年的這個少子女對策計畫裡面確實有強化0到6歲的新手父母的這個協助有這一塊那另外一塊就是在入學的進入到這個教育階段入學之後 小學開始之後那麼在這個"},{"start":21028.802,"end":21045.091,"text":"教育的部分的補助有沒有要再 現在也有教育的補助只是教育的補助要不要也再增加一些這個都在討論當中不過這個也涉及到那個預算因為這個是新增的預算所以目前還是沒有辦法執行這樣"},{"start":21046.272,"end":21064.94,"text":"所以這部分我說這個嚴重國安危機當然行政院當然還有我們衛福部甚至就像剛剛部長講的教育這方面所以教育部這方面也要大力的幫忙來一起共同來研育來解決這個問題其實像衛福部我們之前針對中低"},{"start":21065.8,"end":21088.022,"text":"收入户提供儿童及少年未来发展教育这一方面我们觉得这一部分就做得很好的示范所以我们在想说才会提出说是不是未来账户所运用投资理财的概念就像我们ETF一样政府每年也拨钱来抚养0到12岁的存款"},{"start":21088.522,"end":21106.368,"text":"让政府代为投资的情形去累积他们的资产一方面也可以减轻儿童及少年将来他在各方面所要面临的压力所以当然我们是希望多元化的来解决这个问题所以也希望是不是"},{"start":21107.048,"end":21119.804,"text":"部長我們也是不是也可以提出一些版本大家共同來研議那未來賬戶也只是說我們提供的一個方式最主要我們還是要解決這個少子女化的一個問題"},{"start":21121.562,"end":21148.117,"text":"确实这个需要多元的政策才有办法来因应这样的低生育率的问题但是毕竟这个资源是有限所以我们会再来仔细的研析那么哪一些应该要先走资源要先放哪一些也许我们有更大的空间的时候再来推动就像石部长刚刚有讲你说或许"},{"start":21148.877,"end":21166.608,"text":"其實今天補助5900多億感覺其實還是不夠 對啊因為我們自己在地方基層跑我們可以知道現在的經濟真的不景氣年輕人賺錢真的很不容易那他對於自己的生活都沒有辦法照顧得好"},{"start":21167.088,"end":21183.761,"text":"那如何讓他去結婚如何去生子養小孩這對他們來講真的是一個非常沉重的壓力所以我們也希望我們先提這個未來戰後也是一個希望能夠解決少子女化的危機提高他們"},{"start":21184.401,"end":21204.291,"text":"生育子女来努力所以也希望我们卫福部也能够提出一些版本我们大家共同来讨论最主要希望不要让这个少子女化真的变成我们的国安危机好我们会来提出我们的建议那也请我们卫福部大家一起来努力好谢谢"},{"start":21208.313,"end":21220.204,"text":"謝謝圖權級委員發言那我現在宣告一下待會陳瑩委員詢答後休息10分鐘因為部長也很辛苦你有需要上個洗手間嗎還可以喔好那我們請陳瑩委員發言"},{"start":21237.697,"end":21246.624,"text":"謝謝昭緯那個部長你請先休息應該有時間可以先去上洗手間那個我先問那個主計總處請主計總處處長委員好"},{"start":21257.281,"end":21280.311,"text":"處長好 我想在這兩天一個台東人最關注的議題那就是我們的台東縣財力級別在這個藍白強推這個新的財化法版本的關係在新版的這個財化法的計算公式之下我們台東縣的財力級別一下子從第五級爆沖到第一級"},{"start":21281.391,"end":21307.683,"text":"那饒慶林縣長以及所有的民代以及我們所有台東的民眾都覺得非常的冤枉啊因為我們的饒縣長他非常就是堅守這個財政紀律而且他很努力的在還債那也堪稱是我們全台各縣市的模範生我們大家都給他非常高的評價那就是說但"},{"start":21308.854,"end":21327.396,"text":"大家還是就是說很難接受這樣子的一個結果難道說我們這樣子嚴守財政紀律認真還錢結果卻造成我們台東財力級別大躍升這個是主要的原因嗎"},{"start":21329.08,"end":21351.291,"text":"跟委員報告說這個財力集次我們是依照近三年度自有財源的平均值依序平均分列五級每三年檢討一次那這樣的計算方式是行之有年那115到117剛好是新的一起那這個自有財源是怎麼算的就是你的稅率扣掉中央的補助款"},{"start":21352.113,"end":21369.666,"text":"的部分那因為這一次的財化法中央大幅釋出了4165億元所以地方的這個稅款是大幅增加那所以稅入的部分就要記錄這個影響數那稅出的話就是近三年的稅出決算數這樣算出來的"},{"start":21372.068,"end":21393.509,"text":"那從這個公式可以看到這裡面我們並沒有把他所謂的債務欠了多少錢或是說他還了多少錢 納進來為什麼 因為如果說你把他納進來就怕說你欠越多你的財力集資就越差你反而鼓勵到不還錢的人所以這個公式根本完全跟他的債務"},{"start":21394.73,"end":21413.578,"text":"多少 有還沒還 完全沒有關係那這一次我們計算出來原本台東在前一次的自有財源比例只有36%那事先是排名第20名那以前他算出來大家都是這樣的結果那這一次算出來主要是因為財務法的修正"},{"start":21415.202,"end":21433.56,"text":"他的影響數大概是增加了137億元那這樣算出來他的增幅是220%那我們自由財源的比例計算出來就達到104那整個22個縣市他是排名第4名的那以往我們在計算這個自由財源的比例"},{"start":21434.702,"end":21449.123,"text":"變動的幅度都不會太大那有變動大概是會到三個縣市或四個縣市那縱使有變動它變動的差距大概就會升一級或是降一級那這次採訪法就是分配得非常不均"},{"start":21451.666,"end":21466.198,"text":"讓這個22個縣市算出來有15個縣市是變動的10個上升 5個下降那純粹就是根據財務法分配的結果算出來所以財務法是它的財力變動的因素"},{"start":21467.099,"end":21492.424,"text":"那財力分級的計算是依照那樣分配的結果算出來而已並不是我財力分級的比例去影響了整個財力的結果是因為才要把修正導致整個財力集市的大幅變動好 謝謝處長非常詳細的說明我想這中間有一些誤會所以最主要原因我們還是按照這個國民黨"},{"start":21494.344,"end":21515.015,"text":"推的這個才化法的版本去做詳細的計算所造成的結果那我想我們現在很清楚了這個台東財力級別大躍升從第5級爆衝跳到第1級最主要就是還是這個國民黨的才化法的版本的計算公式"},{"start":21516.892,"end":21541.691,"text":"我想這個我們在當初這個強行推動就是說這個藍白的那個版本其實那個版本應該也沒有被好好的討論因為在台東的統籌分配稅款增加但是在計算公式不變的情況下才讓我們台東一下子跳到這麼多那畢竟台東過去"},{"start":21542.972,"end":21559.057,"text":"努力還債這件事情其實也這幾年來其實都是這樣子的一個情況按照過去幾年的舊版本的計算公式底下一直都維持在第五級我這樣解釋正確吧是好 謝謝"},{"start":21561.618,"end":21588.985,"text":"那雖然是這個樣子啦但是我想國民黨的財化法版本對我們台東來講仍然是一個非常不公平的狀況現在我們台東這個不只綠營的人在罵藍營的支持者也很多在罵那黃建斌委員他也非常的對這個版本所計算出來的結果也相當的不滿意那我們台東呢現在突然跟台北並列第一"},{"start":21589.785,"end":21610.6,"text":"那意味著就是說未來中央在各項政策的補助款比例都將大幅減少甚至沒有補助那但是台東的這個基礎建設還有先天的條件和台北市的這個起保點是完全不一樣的即便我們增加近兩倍的這個統籌稅款但是"},{"start":21611.4,"end":21628.466,"text":"我們的人數也沒有那麼多那台北但是我們台北這個台北有綿密的這個大眾運輸的這個交通網那我們台東卻是地廣人稀那除了就是說只有公車那這個公車還久久一般而且還不準時有時候還過站不停"},{"start":21629.326,"end":21650.559,"text":"那在醫療量能上呢台北他有10個醫學中心我們台東只有一個這個區域級的這個醫院也就是台東馬捷那交通不便加上這個距離遙遠我們的台東縣民如果遇到這個緊急傷病要就醫的時候我們常常都是在跟死神搶時間"},{"start":21653.032,"end":21676.886,"text":"而且大家不要忘記了我們台東呢還是這個風災跟這個地震的搖滾區隨隨便便一個這個牆台或或者這個牆陣來到我們台東那整個救災重建就要燒掉很多的錢我再舉一個例子最基礎的這個民生建設就是水"},{"start":21677.927,"end":21702.227,"text":"台北市自來水普及率已經將近百分百了那台東縣的普及率只有85%那我們隨便要處理一條自來水沿管的費用動輒都是數千萬但是我們這個台東人被財力列為第一級之後這個項目可以獲得的補助經費是零"},{"start":21704.088,"end":21709.542,"text":"一毛錢自來水的部分一毛錢都拿不到所以"},{"start":21712.112,"end":21736.769,"text":"我再舉一個可能大家更容易理解的例子就是一個是住地保那一個是低收入戶但是現在政府說以後每年會多給這位低收入戶的人多兩倍的補助那從今天開始你可以說這個低收入戶的人跟這個住地保財力等級的人是一樣的嗎"},{"start":21738.417,"end":21761.162,"text":"所以 署長你不覺得這樣是很不合理的嗎依照我們補助辦法第9條的規定 財力集市計算出來就是要請各部會依照這個財力集市來去分級去做補助但是我們還是有一些單數的規定 比如那個零必信的環保設施還有援助民族的重要建設"},{"start":21761.762,"end":21780.422,"text":"我跟你說我知道你會拿這一條來堵我的嘴巴但是我告訴你沒有自來水的地方不是只有原住民住而已非原住民也是有裝置自來水的需求所以我想在這個部分在未來來不及修法的情況下有沒有"},{"start":21781.417,"end":21794.993,"text":"任何的這個解套方式還是說怎麼樣 因為畢竟我覺得本席身為這個台東的女兒我要在這裡強烈的要求行政院"},{"start":21796.738,"end":21821.428,"text":"能不能來專案處理台東我們即將面臨的困境我也希望說趁這個機會好好檢討財力分級制度的公式應該納入縣市既有的基礎建設的情形而不是只有單單用統籌稅款的多少去進行判斷也不是光簡單看個面積 人口這樣子而已"},{"start":21824.271,"end":21831.802,"text":"讓這個台東縣可以免用第一級財力的這個負擔比例不然我們未來台東的發展接下來是無法想像的慘"},{"start":21834.9,"end":21855.808,"text":"剛才還沒有報告完這裡面還有一個是說如果還有第三點是專案報行政院核准那這三個例外那我們了解說先前因為第一級只有台北市所以很多部會他在規定的時候是把第一級列為不予補助或是說他的補助"},{"start":21856.648,"end":21880.807,"text":"補助比例比較低那現在因為整個財力集市發生了很大的變動第一級的部分現在有有四個縣市還包括新竹縣市這樣子那我們會把這一個規定那我們會請會請各部位來來注意因為現在這個財力分級第一級不只不只只有一個好像有四個"},{"start":21882.188,"end":21897.359,"text":"那另外我們還有一些比較例外的規定然後我們會請各部會去看他的計畫的性質再去修正他的補助作業要點好那所以如果是這樣子的話那就是"},{"start":21899.591,"end":21920.526,"text":"就變成說本期希望就是說同時我們各部會好然後所有地方政府必須自籌的這個政策跟計劃我們列出來好那也請各部會就是各項重大建設盡可能我們就都來提報提報院然後希望能夠核准我們大概就是能夠"},{"start":21922.543,"end":21931.355,"text":"走這條路後面那個行政院的這個版本如果不排入"},{"start":21932.61,"end":21960.493,"text":"討論的話那我們變成就是要用這樣的方式那就是說我想就是說盡量我們不要讓這個台東縣免用這個第一級財力負擔的比例因為這個確實對我們造成很大的影響我再請這個我們在行政院的部分要好好的去考量委員的意見我們會納入參考好謝謝"},{"start":21963.513,"end":21966.094,"text":"好 謝謝陳英委員那我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":22019.462,"end":22026.705,"text":"好好好"},{"start":22076.642,"end":22077.863,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":22093.56,"end":22103.416,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":22118.541,"end":22140.836,"text":"他們現在是後來再看 但是可以改成加了可以看"},{"start":22147.671,"end":22175.668,"text":"那是說因為台中有一個附近的環境測試那還有一個檢查那你說跟那個計畫其他的譬如說那個神蹟老鼠調查那被檢證的那些東西的部分是不是有一個專業的示範線那個應該也比較示範因為前面都不是很清晰然後我們那裡我剛才知道整套的有一個"},{"start":22177.654,"end":22188.111,"text":"阿我們去接觸一下"},{"start":22206.101,"end":22207.466,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":22259.948,"end":22262.873,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":22291.203,"end":22291.305,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":22322.5,"end":22324.036,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":22441.152,"end":22444.548,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":22481.547,"end":22484.697,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":22617.627,"end":22620.35,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":22642.828,"end":22645.589,"text":"好繼續開會請林淑芬委員詢問好謝謝召委喔是不是請我們這個部長請石部長"},{"start":22661.963,"end":22684.07,"text":"林委員好保庭你好上個禮拜三台中榮總神經外科爆出這個醫學上的醜聞科主任兩位還有網紅有5.6萬名粉絲的網紅醫師對外還主打脊椎手術是吃飯的技能原來是業配的"},{"start":22685.49,"end":22711.967,"text":"业务医材厂商业务的技能然后在进行脊椎内试镜微创手术对骨刺、坐骨神经痛、椎间盘突出脊椎滑脱等症状处理的主要的微创手术在未经病人同意下在病人麻醉不知道的状况下放任无照的医材厂商业务手术指导"},{"start":22713.368,"end":22737.266,"text":"那時間還長達三年那提供的手術畫面非法的證據這個有主任有2023年就開始的也有去年的那我們都知道說據了解那個無照的醫材廠商長臉幫醫師執刀的綽號叫做小老鼠"},{"start":22738.769,"end":22748.213,"text":"更是台中榮總的名醫小老鼠是名醫隱形的地下的指定的主刀業待醫師"},{"start":22751.004,"end":22769.874,"text":"但其實是醫材廠商而且主要是針對內視鏡器材的相關更換他的專業幫微創手術內視鏡器材的相關更換是小老鼠的專業專業就這樣做著做著然後就變成名醫了"},{"start":22774.136,"end":22787.165,"text":"那在這種狀況裡面我們知道每台內視鏡手術大約大概花費10萬元可以完成的但據知情人士表示這些醫師 網紅醫師 主任"},{"start":22790.447,"end":22815.498,"text":"然後他們開了內視鏡手術加上自費的等等加起來30萬到40萬經常的是每個月開5台到10台來計算三年算下來至少有一兩百位的患者在被麻醉不知情的狀況裡面然後被醫材廠商業代醫師假醫師操刀部長你是說怎麼樣"},{"start":22820.63,"end":22846.604,"text":"跟委員說明在過去醫療行為我們把它明確的定義為核心業務跟輔助業務核心業務一定是醫師親自執行那麼手術麻醉我們都是把它定位為核心業務是要醫師親自執行的手術麻醉也是另一種專科也是醫師對 也是要醫師執行也是有另一種麻醉科"},{"start":22847.441,"end":22871.437,"text":"医师的执照的所以以脊椎手术或者是神经外科的手术这个如果是如同委员所提的这个涉及到是不是如同我所提的上个礼拜三你跟人家说一个礼拜以内你要提出调查报告到现在三四五六日今天第六天来说不是我提的"},{"start":22872.077,"end":22897.824,"text":"就是说我是要问你说你们调查的内容照我这个描述的内容那这个会涉及到医师法28条的密意罪那个是刑事责任的不是啊不对你都不知道你都不知道光是现在就可以伤害罪论处这一个小老鼠了那叫什么老鼠对小老鼠对吧不要讲医疗法伤害罪"},{"start":22901.391,"end":22916.304,"text":"傷害罪還有不要講醫療法醫師法不要講醫師法你知道現在這個醫師還有一起在密閉的手術房裡面的人共同涉及犯什麼罪嗎你不知道加重詐欺罪"},{"start":22923.823,"end":22938.279,"text":"加重詐欺罪 六個月以上不能緩刑 不能預科罰金這樣你聽得懂嗎 如果認真去調查不是這個醫生而已 你詐欺這個病人"},{"start":22943.574,"end":22956.861,"text":"當同伙三個人以上手術室不只三個人吧所以這個案子我們也請衛生局去調查但是沒錯 李鳳欣因為我們知道這個裡面醫療糾紛不受理"},{"start":22964.634,"end":22982.12,"text":"沒關係 加重詐欺跟傷害罪這個不是依究法的範疇喔 這普通刑法喔可以的喔 可以辦的喔但是他如果再加一個依究法沒辦法 沒辦法 依究法停擺"},{"start":22983.48,"end":23009.358,"text":"我們當時醫療法鑑定 停擺醫療法鑑定我現在問你 無照的醫材廠商跟刀跟刀變開刀 行之很多年了冰凍三尺 非一日之寒你知道你以前也處理過 你也對外講過你記得多久以前嗎"},{"start":23012.573,"end":23038.305,"text":"委員講的是哪一件2019年4月媒體披露醫界人士透露業帶跟進手術房教學兼販售的情形然後傳出有人從跟刀變動刀儘管醫師法禁止非醫療人員去指導但對於進入手術室的人員身份"},{"start":23039.225,"end":23064.806,"text":"並沒有限制一定得是醫療人員所以法規規範不到的模糊地帶大家問你說醫病安全該怎麼把關那現行法規2019年的時候人家也有問你有沒有限制進入手術房的人員的身份你怎麼幫醫病安全把關你當時是怎麼說我當時不記得"},{"start":23071.773,"end":23092.411,"text":"你說當時是司長他說新興的一些或新購的一些儀器設備在這個使用的初期的確有需要業者的協助說明那當務之急在實務上它有必要性但是你說手術一定是醫師親自執行的那麼其他的輔助助手也好器械也好"},{"start":23093.052,"end":23112.42,"text":"因為這是一個團隊的過程他一定有其他醫事人員的協助這個也沒有問題但是對於這個完全不具有醫事人員身份者他是不能夠直接來進來執行手術的那人家問你說可不可以進去手術室完全沒有資格的人可不可以進去手術室"},{"start":23114.164,"end":23140.261,"text":"然後你沒有正面回答你說有分區作業的管理規定包含清潔區、無菌區以及動線的規劃這些在醫院評鑑裡面有詳細的要求了所以你沒有回答那今天再問你一下今天這個業帶它已經有做好全身消毒的清潔那依照現行的法規它可不可以進去"},{"start":23141.786,"end":23164.925,"text":"我聽委員剛剛念的我當時候講的好像也都正確啦到至今仍然適用啦但是當時候我沒有回答到的今天要補充好你來補充就是說我們現在的醫療科技的進步確實有一些設備他需要有這個技術人員也好或者是熟悉這個設備的廠商也好進去協助"},{"start":23165.265,"end":23177.514,"text":"你的意思是說醫生要開刀以前對這些設備都還不熟悉囉還不熟悉就要幫病人抄刀然後使用這些設備這樣東西比較平衡沒有不是這樣那些東西要組裝啦要組裝啦"},{"start":23182.318,"end":23199.955,"text":"已经要准备要组装要组装比如说我们达文西手术那整支要怎么倒不是组装好了不是要组装不是组装好了我们才能起来不是他要组装然后医师才能操作所以他会进入到里面去协助现在很多"},{"start":23201.456,"end":23217.487,"text":"在现场所以你的意思是他们还是可以进入手术室但是必须要有规范比如说他要懂得这个手术室里面的无菌区跟这个那你们现在有规范吗"},{"start":23220.389,"end":23234.154,"text":"在这个正式上我们没有完全的规范是由医院内必须规范的纯粹医材的厂商的业务进去帮忙组装这些医材那现行有没有规范"},{"start":23235.382,"end":23251.514,"text":"我想我們要做一個指引讓醫院內部做成據我的了解很多醫院是有它自己內部有規範但是我們現在由衛福部來做一個指引我們來做讓所有的醫院的規範讓它一致性那我問你他們這個"},{"start":23256.617,"end":23276.611,"text":"無照醫材業務代表代刀集中在哪些科別人家說集中在骨科脊髓外科神經外科甚至因為這是一個業務的這個區域所以甚至集中在哪些醫院還是特定哪些區域你有沒有了解了"},{"start":23277.341,"end":23295.857,"text":"这个我们要再进一步了解科别因为这三个科听起来就是他的那个用的这些设备现在特别是这些机器手背之类的比较多所以医院都人力短缺然后你们现在就是要开放医材"},{"start":23297.285,"end":23319.719,"text":"廠商的助手可以進去手術的時候當助手你現在是要開放這個嗎我們要有一個指引來規範你是要開放這個嗎因為人力短缺嘛這個有它的必要性有它的必要性它有這個器械的熟悉度我現在找幾種視角有醫生曾經這樣講因為2019年人家就檢舉了然後就說了就問了"},{"start":23320.72,"end":23341.502,"text":"所以2019年江冠宇醫師也是蠻有名的聯合醫院中心院區的主治醫師他說他在臉書曾經說適用新醫材如骨科神經外科總會有一些新玩意兒出來但是操刀的醫師未必熟悉適當的角度這個時候有業代的協助操作空間"},{"start":23344.059,"end":23371.064,"text":"但是他說自己他將慣於跟過神經外科的刀大家都知道人力的關係那麼非技術性的如拉鉤這種刀柱等級都不到的根本是實習醫師等級的人手不夠就會請業代醫師代勞這樣主治醫師才有辦法跳刀去接另外一台刀就把今天的報表的"},{"start":23372.184,"end":23395.334,"text":"這個爆滿的刀錶給抄完所以這個是醫師曾經這樣子說那江冠宇醫師這個講法就是連醫師同儕之間 他也在證實醫材業務代表 業代代刀確實有此事喔已經不是去協助組裝醫材 是代刀喔"},{"start":23397.058,"end":23420.492,"text":"有这种事我们在未来的指引里面会把它理清楚他们进去之后能够做什么事不能够做什么事情还要应该有基本的哪一些训练指引人家信叨指引指引可以有足够的约束力吗指引这个后面就是我们刚刚提到的医疗法 医师法就会有相关的法则"},{"start":23422.433,"end":23447.542,"text":"醫師法都講了因為侵入性行為你這無照的醫師你做這種侵入性的醫師的行為都有刑責了他就沒在信道理啊你現在只做指引夠好這查明的如果是執行的醫師法第28條就有刑責了那個就是移送檢調啦"},{"start":23448.462,"end":23464.054,"text":"沒有啦 現在就變成常態啊要移送就完嗎我現在要跟你說喔 我剛才說的不要供醫施法有刑者喔加重詐欺罪連交保 連一顆罰金都不可以喔"},{"start":23465.615,"end":23494.192,"text":"加重詐欺罪 藉由醫生就要抓奇怪非怪不可再來傷害罪這個業務業待醫師 假醫師也有傷害罪 也要抓奇怪如果沒有人在怕 繼續做因為這些人知道沒有人 如果沒有檢舉沒有本人會出事現在我剛才講江冠宇醫師講的是什麼江冠宇醫師講的是"},{"start":23496.104,"end":23523.612,"text":"他說其實是證實啊 證實就是都這樣啊你再收一個指引要怎麼講有法律就不怕了還怕指引嗎法律都不怕了還怕指引嗎指引的目的是讓醫院按照我們的指引去定他的規範指引 有法律就要有處分有法律有處分 這才是法律的作用有法律放者不敢處分"},{"start":23524.732,"end":23534.919,"text":"這個法律沒好企啊現在就是可以去關門也不敢用查明了 該移送檢調就移送檢調這個沒有模糊的空間"},{"start":23536.122,"end":23561.735,"text":"這個有爆料的 有沒爆料的沒人知道我現在跟護理師講法護理師在臉書粉專貼文外行人覺得驚訝 內行人早已見怪不怪各大醫院中很多外科手術都由廠商業代在刀房協助完成這個是醫療界普遍認為早就是公開的秘密了"},{"start":23562.535,"end":23586.438,"text":"而且廠商為了求推廣產品必須手把手的教導醫師使用畢竟對自家產品最了解的是廠商不是醫師然後從專業跟經驗累積角度來看廠商執刀後的成果比專業的醫師本人操刀更完美也很正常"},{"start":23587.299,"end":23609.974,"text":"所以衍生一些問題比如說膽子越來越大的醫生可能如同放風箏一樣手越抓越鬆風箏越飛越遠搞到最後一個主治醫師同時守好幾間房仔細看全部都是業代跟住院醫師在開所以主治醫師變成從指導醫師變成監軍來調給的是這護理人員第一線在臉書上貼的他說"},{"start":23618.16,"end":23636.52,"text":"弔詭的是這樣的非法模式卻可以有效的擴張醫療量能甚至維護醫療手術的品質說到底這其實是醫療崩壞下人力短缺所產生出來的另一片知秋知夜"},{"start":23637.884,"end":23660.618,"text":"所以許多人包括我都認為應該趁機檢討現行法律跟制度無論是退場或是就地合法都應該給出明確的制度來保障各方權益然後不好聽的實話是事件的起源不是醫療疏失也不是因為他造成傷害然後去個個"},{"start":23661.919,"end":23687.913,"text":"讓大家盡量知道竟然事件的起源是來自於人們檢舉的不是那個病人去檢舉的還是去收購的都不是那中融最可能的處置方法就是懲處個別醫師對外宣稱將嚴格要求廠商遵守規定只能間接指導設備使用不可以接觸病人"},{"start":23689.434,"end":23700.547,"text":"也就是維持現狀而第一時間衛福部表明將個案處理大概也不會通盤檢討這是護理師這是護理師"},{"start":23707.008,"end":23728.04,"text":"那醫學中心怎麼講呢不具名的醫學中心高層表示醫療設備廠商進刀房幫忙是公開的秘密畢竟現在醫護人力嚴重不足把廠商當做人力使用很常見尤其是私立醫院凡事都要談成本廠商協助手術只要發揮"},{"start":23729.221,"end":23753.961,"text":"那個消毒手術的服裝口罩的費用幾乎零成本所以確實有聽說一些醫院讓業者協助開刀那這些醫材廠商的業務視角他們怎麼理解呢醫材廠商的業務說哎呀反正這個出問題了手術醫生一定會自己扛他們說他有一個叫小龍的這個是媒體報導的"},{"start":23756.291,"end":23771.431,"text":"他是大學傳播學系畢業的在朋友介紹下進入醫產公司擔任業務平常常跑醫院開發客戶沒有想到有一天竟然會被要求進開刀房協助醫師操作器械甚至參與手術關鍵步驟"},{"start":23773.513,"end":23796.039,"text":"然後他說 這個行業水很深醫材採購存在許多不成文的規則加上部分資深或有威望的醫師不願意花時間學習新器材的操作便把比較簡單的技術環節交給熟悉產品的業務處理久而久之就形成業務帶刀的灰色地帶"},{"start":23797.119,"end":23810.879,"text":"然後這個小龍爆料業務之所以敢禁手出事因為大家都心知肚明一旦出事了醫生他會說這是我帶刀的絕對不可能承認讓業務去直刀"},{"start":23812.622,"end":23827.903,"text":"所以只有誰不知道你知道嗎大家護理師也知道醫院也知道醫師也知道廠商的醫材廠商的業務也知道就只有誰不知道只有被麻醉躺在那裡的病人不知道還有衛福部不知道"},{"start":23829.437,"end":23855.606,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的是希望說這個講出來問題很多 不對這要怎麼解決 要怎麼通盤檢討跟委員說明 我也問了幾位院長他們都跟我說沒有這回事但是既然委員提到說這個什麼網路上或媒體上這樣子的報導好像是一個蠻常見的現象那我們一定會正視這個問題"},{"start":23857.326,"end":23864.413,"text":"我現在要講說這個是房間裡面的大象大家都說沒有沒有"},{"start":23866.424,"end":23888.383,"text":"也不是只有台中中榮這個單一偶發事件那調查就局限在有提供證據的個案那我們講是你一定要從制度面通盤檢討你說的確立明確的指引或指原則甚至你應該要提的是吹哨者保護條款"},{"start":23890.47,"end":23912.589,"text":"對不對 你政府哪有這麼多的力量去監督然後呢在操刀手術的過程當中 我剛才講過這裏面參與到包括護理師 他知道他也已經會被控告 加重詐欺犯罪這裏面涉入到看到的"},{"start":23913.74,"end":23919.582,"text":"都加重詐欺犯罪你需要有一個吹哨者保護條款他如果出來檢舉了應該讓他免責啊不是嗎"},{"start":23933.378,"end":23951.883,"text":"這個跟委員說明第一個我們會重申會讓所有的醫院跟衛生局都了解這樣規範應該是怎麼規範那麼如果違反這個規範會涉及到的相關的罰則或者是法律的責任是什麼像如果大家都知道了醫師法第28條"},{"start":23954.844,"end":23961.907,"text":"我們要去重申他這個界線在哪裡那些人都結構性的犯罪如果出來檢舉的人自己也要有刑責是齁沒有人敢說如果說出來就有刑責會被告我覺得你更需要的可能是吹哨者保護條款免責出來檢舉的人免刑責是不是在這裡我告訴你"},{"start":23985.633,"end":24014.313,"text":"現在年紀到一個狀況以後追肩膀問題骨骼問題然後需要使用這些高單價的內視鏡微創醫療醫材的手術的人很多但是護理師出走刷手護理師流動率上升非教學醫院的骨科醫師沒有住院醫師也沒有經驗老道的刷手護理師要怎麼樣維持好的品質沒有辦法"},{"start":24015.314,"end":24028.927,"text":"人家沒去非教學型的醫院沒行李然後這個高收益的脊椎內視鏡微創手術成為骨科次專科當中的顯學行李最好"},{"start":24030.268,"end":24045.807,"text":"每項技術的成熟都跟學習曲線有關結果這種醫生要訓練好開這個刀至少要練20到100次才能獨立開好一台刀結果大家什麼要叫人做練習的大家也沒有人要做醫師練刀的對象"},{"start":24048.53,"end":24075.045,"text":"人力不足然後獲利壓力技術門檻三重狀況裡面專精於特定急隨內視鏡手術的廠商協助自然就進來了就成為醫療利益的共同默契換句話說啦這一種不法的行為已經固化到成為醫療產業鏈當中的共同默契還有生存的相互依賴"},{"start":24076.326,"end":24100.164,"text":"那你怎麼會抓得到 不可能抓得到所以你要如何去抓出揪出隱藏在手術燈下的不法行為你才能夠保障病患的權益啊我們現在說得難聽一點今天醫生的專業已經去受到挑戰了一個醫材商做操刀比你一個醫生還更賢熟這樣不就是醫生"},{"start":24103.735,"end":24132.061,"text":"對不對 做醫生的專業被挑戰耶然後你的管理和督導責任都沒了然後制度不嚴謹或明知或默許的不合規的情形發生然後醫院的行政責任只能說有檢舉這裡嗎沒有檢舉沒有如果檢舉下去呢大家都要行責事後你沒有吹哨者保護的條款所以這是常見的狀況但不合法也不合理啊"},{"start":24133.413,"end":24150.119,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面當商業利益滲透到醫療決策醫療行為的時候醫師的專業的建立你看蕩然無存日本也是這樣啊有指引啊日本的指引2008年就有醫療機構等場所醫療設備配備的標準"},{"start":24154.782,"end":24175.971,"text":"結果在去年日本還是發現醫材商在有指引的狀況裡面在手術過程當中還是在協助醫師操作X光設備啊所以我在這裡我是要告訴你說制度性的全面性的以外我現在第一優先建議催少者保護條款"},{"start":24178.462,"end":24203.316,"text":"沒什麼人跟我說 你說你制度面建立好了但是 也是繼續來這樣做啊因為就沒夠人啊 因為已經沒夠選手啊因為還需要人來選啊就白人在這裡罵罪啊 不知道 對白人不公平啊所以檢舉的條款 吹哨者保護啊吹哨者保護條款第一重要 你可以認為嗎你可以認同嗎"},{"start":24206.212,"end":24223.62,"text":"我們來研究看看不過應該要加重的是醫院管理者的責任因為醫院不是多大的空間加重這個醫院管理者的責任是首先現在你開放業帶可以進入手術房你現在說要訂指引要讓他們可以進去"},{"start":24225.101,"end":24245.516,"text":"有進去就有操作的空間了以前沒有開放業帶進去偷偷摸摸現在業帶進去你開放了偷偷摸摸進去裡面不用偷偷摸摸但在裡面做什麼更沒有人知道只有在裡面的人知道在裡面的人講出去每個人都犯法"},{"start":24246.377,"end":24268.637,"text":"你沒有給他催哨者保護 這樣更不可能平康啊醫院你看到這樣子而已 醫院的管理者也是很忙碌我們老實說 你說這件事真的是知識體大喔知識體大 所以我們在這個我們希望強化病人的知情權和參與喔"},{"start":24271.078,"end":24299.35,"text":"非醫療人員如果在場你不要忘了要以文件詳實記錄而且要取得受訴者知道吧我受訴者要知道誰參與我的醫療處置即便非醫療人員非醫事人員在場他是做什麼的也應該寫清楚我這刀裡面有誰是非醫事人員他也會進來他要做什麼至少讓當事人知道吧"},{"start":24300.71,"end":24319.176,"text":"應不應該這個我會通盤來檢討那麼也因應這個技術跟能力的需要因為我們其他還有就是我們本來就有輔助人力在嘛那個就是醫事人員背景的所以如果哪一些我們有需要這樣的這個"},{"start":24321.776,"end":24338.824,"text":"這個人力的協助的時候應該也要有一些訓練接受一些正規沒有啦 你以前可以入企的都是麻醉科不是超大醫師啦相關需要的醫事人員護理師麻醉科醫師現在是要醫財商可以入企你現在要開放嘛要入企可以耶你和受訴者知情權啦"},{"start":24344.707,"end":24366.136,"text":"他不能接觸病人簡單的講就是我要知道有人在萬一有醫療糾紛發生了我就可以知道有誰在有沒有可能非醫療人員非醫師搞阿蟲他當然提出他權力保障的時候他要去調資料看對不對灰色地帶要補的規範很多"},{"start":24367.637,"end":24388.592,"text":"但是我在這裡要強調要以病人安全為優先的統一規範要以病人中心主義來去做相關的制度面的彌補才是最重要的啦好 謝謝我們來把您的意見把它納進來好 謝謝林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":24390.489,"end":24404.662,"text":"接下來林思明委員林思明委員林思明委員不在陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員不在林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員不在接下來請葉元之委員詢答麻煩請部長謝謝請市部長"},{"start":24419.445,"end":24442.959,"text":"今天大家討論兒童未來帳戶實際上衛福部本來也有一個線型的做法民進黨我看很多委員好像也說他們要一個做法在野黨也有一個做法我來跟這個部長請教一下其中差異第一個我先請問一下現在目前衛福部的做法是針對比較弱勢的家庭對不對一比一的方式要家長"},{"start":24444.78,"end":24470.86,"text":"提撥然後政府相對基金嘛先問一下甚至一定要家長有我們才會提撥嘛如果針對一些譬如說有一些我隨便舉例明年基金會譬如說家福基金會他們認養的一些孤兒然後他可能家長沒有提撥的這個部分你們有照顧到嗎那個安置而造我們有納入的安置那是誰幫他們出這筆錢"},{"start":24473.932,"end":24487.57,"text":"角路的錢縣市政府我們現在那個都是縣市政府列管的那個安置的額少那就是由縣市政府撥中央我們也會有"},{"start":24488.3,"end":24506.927,"text":"所以他們是直接縣政府就一律提撥因為你的你原本現金做法是可以選擇嘛有好幾種金額嘛五百一千一千二所以縣市政府針對那些我剛講比如說家福基金會他們照顧的孤兒然後縣市政府是支出多少是五百還是一千還是一千二"},{"start":24508.933,"end":24536.286,"text":"剛剛您提的那個是我們有分成是政府安置的跟民間的政府監護的才算我剛剛講民間我現在是確認 民間的就沒有就沒有所以今天部長你這邊在反對在野黨提出來的兒童外障其實你有一個依據你有一個立論基礎是講說你應該把資源用來照顧弱勢但實際上你弱勢有一大塊你沒有照顧到"},{"start":24537.917,"end":24556.189,"text":"這個我們可以來解答所以就並沒有達到你當初你的政策目標嘛這第一件事情那第二件事情是你的帳戶其實很多家長沒有加入嘛對不對那個比例是蠻高的嘛那我相信你也很知道原因嘛因為很多家長覺得說他的錢本來就不夠用還去存這個東西"},{"start":24557.39,"end":24585.251,"text":"所以並沒有達到照顧弱勢反而我覺得你這個政策應該從另外一個角度思考就是從解決少子化或者是讓比如說小朋友從小培養理財概念然後到他可以有他的比如說一個一畢業就有一筆錢讓他可以應用無後顧之憂從這個角度來思考這個政策應該要怎麼擴大你就可以考慮在黨版本我看民進黨的立委"},{"start":24586.292,"end":24605.548,"text":"有一個委員開記者會我是沒有看到具體的內容但是記者會他就是說他也是要擴大不是只有針對弱勢是大家都可以參加對不對但他也是採用1比1就是相對基金的做法然後用ETF的方式"},{"start":24606.209,"end":24616.179,"text":"那一開始這個民進黨立委他開會公佈的時候我看到媒體的報導政府單位是樂觀其成是覺得委員的想法不錯"},{"start":24617.384,"end":24639.541,"text":"怎麼到在野黨提出一個類似的也是類似版本只是說在野黨為什麼沒有要求說要相對基金是因為就是考慮到如果有一些家長他不願意加入的話那就剝奪了小朋友參加的權利結果忽然間部長又有意見說沒有财源又一大堆拒絕的理由說會排擠掉弱勢"},{"start":24640.382,"end":24660.784,"text":"那為什麼民進黨的委員提的就不會排擠弱勢國民黨或是藍白立委提的黨團版本就會排擠弱勢我就不懂這個標準到底是到底差異性在哪裡啊對啊 這個部長說明一下過去所有的版本我們大概都在評估啦"},{"start":24661.464,"end":24680.566,"text":"並沒有說支持哪一個一定反對哪一個都在評估但是以我們的政策上是以弱勢優先的考量我們目前是先就我們現有的這個帳戶呢如何來擴大這個適用的對象然後提高它的那個覆蓋率然後讓它更有效益"},{"start":24681.127,"end":24703.907,"text":"从这个地方先检讨至于说比较普惠性的那个也是一种选择但是我们就要衡量我们现在的财政能够负荷的哪一个的急迫性又比较重要那么就在前面先做所以你看有两件事情第一件事你一直强调说是对弱势的照顾可是要不是蓝白有提出这样一个未来账户的版本"},{"start":24705.069,"end":24730.506,"text":"你其實也沒有去檢討說你們這幾年來執行這個弱勢兒童的未來帳戶實際上參與率應該沒有達到你的預期嘛但是一直沒有去做出一些精心的做法包括我剛剛問的嘛如果是被民間收養的這些孤兒他們也沒有權利加入所以你都沒有注意到這一塊如果今天要不是召委排這樣的一個詢答的話"},{"start":24731.286,"end":24757.329,"text":"可能對於你之前的帳戶都有在研究啦有在研究但沒有改進嘛有在研究沒有改進啊第二件事情就是我剛講的你說各種版本你們都會仔細評估可是民進黨立委提的喔你們就覺得不錯啊可以來討論啊樂觀其成啊然後藍白提的你們就是說哎呀那個裁員在哪裡啊會不會排擠到這個現有的預算啊會不會影響到對弱勢的照顧啊喔這種"},{"start":24758.793,"end":24779.949,"text":"講法就南圓北側我希望衛福部如果說你要針對這個因為後續還會有公聽會還會有進一步的討論要一視同仁就事論事我們都一視同仁就事論事幾位委員請的版本衝擊財務的衝擊也各自不同今天這個版本的衝擊算是最大"},{"start":24781.11,"end":24792.784,"text":"那你有看到別人的版本嗎有有有之前的幾位委員的版本他的有的是沒有這個開戶金啦他只是每年的相對提撥所以他一年的預算衝擊有限"},{"start":24794.198,"end":24812.408,"text":"那但是今天這個版本因為又有一個這個開戶金所以這個大家可以討論嘛討論嘛但是我覺得不要因為不同政黨你們的回應就不一樣啦然後弱勢的照顧也要做到位啦好不好好謝謝"},{"start":24817.45,"end":24835.581,"text":"好 謝謝葉元之委員發言本日會議詢答全部結束那委員嚴寬恆 楊耀 林思明 陳玉珍 林倩琪圖權及羅明才 陳培宇所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報做一下決議說明及詢答完畢"},{"start":24836.562,"end":24851.769,"text":"委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定那現在請議事人員宣讀提案的條文內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":24854.079,"end":24879.602,"text":"本院國民黨黨團 台灣民眾黨黨團提案台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案第一條 為應應少子女化挑戰及解決跨世代貧富差距建置台灣未來帳戶制度透過政府家庭與企業共同投資及長期複利機制協助兒少累積發展性資本 落實人才培育發展平權保障其成年後之教育及創業資源特制定本條例"},{"start":24880.282,"end":24899.817,"text":"第二條本條例所稱主管機關在中央為衛生福利部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府第三條本條例用詞定義如下依台灣未來賬戶只依本條例規定以兒童或少年之名義開立供期滿18歲前自行存款及由政府撥付啟動金撥款額"},{"start":24903.239,"end":24922.315,"text":"撥補款 企業贊助款 基金投資收益之個人帳戶而結餘金額則指個人帳戶內的總額二 開戶人 指完成開立臺灣未來帳戶之兒童或少年三 啟動金 指臺灣未來帳戶開立後第一年由中央主管機關撥入新臺幣五萬元開戶定額款項"},{"start":24925.878,"end":24952.814,"text":"四 撥補款 指臺灣未來帳戶開立第二年至開戶人12歲 指每年由中央主管機關撥入新臺幣1萬元定額款項五 自存款 指以開戶人名義自行存入其臺灣未來帳戶之款項每年每帳戶以新臺幣10萬元為限至開戶人12歲 指六 企業贊助款 指臺灣未來帳戶開戶人其法定代理人之僱主贊助而存入之款項"},{"start":24953.494,"end":24969.628,"text":"每年每賬戶以新台幣五萬元為限至開戶人十二歲止或直接捐贈基金之款項第四條中央主管機關長理下列事項一 台灣未來賬戶之政策法規與相關措施之規劃訂定宣導及國際交流二 台灣未來賬戶之開辦基金運用與提領機制之規劃協調及監督"},{"start":24976.994,"end":25002.708,"text":"三對直轄市縣市主管機關執行臺灣未來帳戶相關工作之監督協調及獎勵四其他全國姓臺灣未來帳戶之相關事項第五條直轄市縣市主管機關長理下列事項一臺灣未來帳戶之推動執行及宣導二對臺灣未來帳戶開戶人與其家庭提供相關協助服務之規劃及執行三其他地方姓臺灣未來帳戶之相關事項第六條"},{"start":25003.388,"end":25026.939,"text":"本条例适用对象为中华民国102年9月2日以后出生未满12岁之中华民国国民且在中华民国境内住有且在中华民国境内有住所并年度居住中华民国境内满183天者第七条中央政府依本条例置印台湾未来账户以13年为其成所需经费上限为新台币4500亿元"},{"start":25028.42,"end":25043.36,"text":"並以特別預算方式編列分期辦理預算籌編及審議其預算編制不受預算法第23條不得充經常支出規定之限制前項所需經費來源得以一用以前年度稅計剩餘"},{"start":25044.762,"end":25060.869,"text":"或舉措債務之應但執行期間尚有以前年度稅計剩餘可供一用時因優先之應不得舉借債務其每年度舉借債務之額度不受公共債務法第五條第七項規定之限制中央政府總預算"},{"start":25061.269,"end":25084.189,"text":"及特別預算於本條例施行期間之舉債額度合計數不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算稅出總額合計數之百分之十五本條例施行期間中央政府所舉接之一年以上公共債務未償餘額預算數因依公共債務法第五條第一項規定辦理行政院因依據第一項合定之結果"},{"start":25085.59,"end":25112.297,"text":"編列本條例特別預算案附具各項書件及報告送請立法院審議已依本條例執行之計畫仍列入特別預算案時應另附計畫執行績效報告第八條中央主管機關應定其邀集學者專家及相關機關代表協調諮詢及推動臺灣未來帳戶相關事項前項學者專家及機關代表任意性別不得少於三分之一"},{"start":25112.757,"end":25135.338,"text":"第九条 中央主管机关应就台湾未来账户之执行情形进行研究每三年公布一次研究报告作为政策检讨与精进之依据第二章 专户之提交与请领第十条 台湾未来账户之收支保管等业务由主管机关委托劳动部劳工保险局以下简称劳保局办理之"},{"start":25136.359,"end":25162.511,"text":"臺灣未來帳戶之運用經營及管理等業務由主管機關委託勞動部勞動基金運用局以下簡稱基金運用局辦理該基金之經營及運用基金運用局得委託金融機構辦理委託經營規定範圍及經費由基金運用局擬定報請中央主管機關核定之本條例之啟動金撥補款自存款及企業贊助款"},{"start":25163.447,"end":25190.719,"text":"應儲存於臺灣未來帳戶勞保局設立之開戶人個人專戶第十一條勞保局與基金運用局對於臺灣未來帳戶基金之財務收支應分戶立帳並與其辦理之其他業務分開處理其相關之會計報告及年度決算應依有關法令規定辦理並由基金運用局彙整報請主管機關備查臺灣未來帳戶基金之收支運用"},{"start":25191.799,"end":25207.302,"text":"與其積存金額及財務報表基金運用局應按月報請主管機關備查主管機關應按年公告之第十二條直轄市縣市主管機關之西轄內涉及之兒童及少年符合第六條所定條件者"},{"start":25207.762,"end":25225.595,"text":"因自知悉之日起三個月內列冊報中央主管機關通知承辦機構於第十條第二項之總帳戶下開立臺灣未來帳戶及撥入啟動金中央主管機關得公告年度存款上限金額內可擇定之每月自存"},{"start":25226.616,"end":25244.493,"text":"自存款金額開戶人之法定代理人或最近親屬任意人得向直轄市縣市主管機關申請變更原則定之每月自存款金額經各該主管機關核准後列冊報中央主管機關通知承辦機構變更之一年以變更一次為限"},{"start":25245.214,"end":25264.568,"text":"第十三條開戶人其法定代理人或最近親屬因每月依責定之自存款金額存入臺灣未來帳戶致開戶人滿十八歲止但有特殊情形者得於每年度得於每年年度終了前辦理補存開戶人於前項存入自款"},{"start":25265.248,"end":25284.24,"text":"自存款之期間內不得提領其臺灣未來賬戶之節餘金額但有第19條至第21條所定情形者不在此限第14條中央主管機關應就開戶人之法定代理人或最近親屬任意人之自存款提供綜合所得稅列舉扣除"},{"start":25284.74,"end":25301.856,"text":"且免納贈與稅額度之計算中央主管機關應對企業贊助款之企業提供獎勵及免稅措施簽兩項之獎勵與免稅對象範圍及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第15條中央主管機關應定其編制台灣未來帳戶之啟動金"},{"start":25305.579,"end":25323.855,"text":"撥補款 自存款 企業贊助款基金投資收益及其他相關資訊提供地方主管機關轉資開戶人之息第十六條台灣未來賬戶基金收支保管業務及基金之運用經營及管理業務之監理應聘請政府機關代表"},{"start":25324.595,"end":25351.108,"text":"開戶人代表專家學者及相關團體代表組成以臺灣未來賬戶基金監理會以下簡稱監理會行之前項監理會之監理事項程序人員組成任期與聆聘及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之第十七條臺灣未來賬戶基金統一管理運用時收益不得低於以當地銀行二年定期存款利率計算之收益"},{"start":25351.568,"end":25363.883,"text":"如有不足由國庫補足之開戶人之賬戶節餘金額自滿十八歲之日起至辦理結清賬戶提領之日子之收益並應繳納綜合所得稅承辦機構"},{"start":25365.706,"end":25395.386,"text":"於給付收益時應辦理所得稅扣繳及申報第十八條台灣未來賬戶基金應以安全穩健為原則運用基金投資標的以國內股票與債券或者證券公司發行的受益憑證之合格投資標的為限基金之具體投資方式比例風險控管及內部監督機制由主管機關定之主管機關應建立基金運用之內部控制及風險管理制度"},{"start":25397.007,"end":25416.538,"text":"並定期辦理績效評估前項基金之運用情形及相關財務資訊應定期公告並送立法院被查第三章 帳戶請領及結清第十九條直轄市縣市主管機關應與開戶人滿十八歲一個月前通知其檢據帳戶結餘金額用途相關證明辦理臺灣未來帳戶款項之請領並結清帳戶前項帳戶結餘金額用途"},{"start":25424.262,"end":25438.127,"text":"以助於開戶人就學、就業、職業訓練、創業、購屋自備款及租屋費為限直轄市縣市主管機關審查開戶人提出之帳戶結餘金額用途相關證明符合前項帳戶結餘金額用途者"},{"start":25440.729,"end":25459.325,"text":"轉請中央主管機關辦理提領開戶人臺灣未來帳戶節餘金額並結清帳戶未提出帳戶節餘金額用途相關證明或經審查不符前述帳戶節餘金額用途者轉請中央主管機關辦理提領自存款及企業贊助款並結清帳戶"},{"start":25460.846,"end":25476.537,"text":"開戶人於滿18歲之日起10年內因死亡而未依前二項規定辦理臺灣未來帳戶款項之請領及結清帳戶者得由原為其開戶之法定代理的人或最近親屬任意人申請提領該帳戶之結餘金額並結清帳戶經直轄市縣市主管機關審查核准後報請中央主管機關辦理之"},{"start":25484.402,"end":25499.177,"text":"開戶人及法定代理人或最近親屬任意人依第二項後段或前項規定請領帳戶結餘金額者或於開戶人滿18歲之日起10年內前述權利人未依前三項規定申請提領及結清帳戶者開戶人臺灣未來帳戶所餘款項"},{"start":25502.96,"end":25526.098,"text":"归属基金收入有关结金账户责成主管机关另定办法处理之第二十条未满18岁之开户人因死亡罹患严重疾病或为严重身心障碍时其法定代理人或最近亲属任意人得向直辖市县市主管机关申请提领账户结余金额经各该主管机关审查核准后"},{"start":25527.279,"end":25547.78,"text":"轉請中央主管機關辦理提領並結清帳戶前項所稱嚴重疾病及嚴重身心障礙之範圍由中央主管機關公告之第21條開戶人喪失國籍且未曾依規定辦理臺灣未來帳戶款項之請領及結清帳戶者轉請中央主管機關辦理提領自存款"},{"start":25548.2,"end":25572.982,"text":"及企業贊助款並結清帳戶第二十二條開戶人向直轄市縣市主管機關申請退出臺灣未來帳戶該管主管機關因自其申請日期一年內派員輔導期滿後開戶人仍決定退出者得請領該帳戶內資自存款及企業贊助款並結清帳戶該帳戶之基金投資收益歸屬國庫第二十三條"},{"start":25573.642,"end":25588.44,"text":"开户人办理账户结清后不得重新申请开立台湾未来账户第四章负责第24条开户人之台湾未来账户结余金额均不记录其他法规所定之家庭总收入或家庭财产"},{"start":25589,"end":25597.027,"text":"且不得作為抵銷扣押供單保或強制執行之標的開戶人依第十九條規定提領帳戶結餘金額前得檢據直轄市縣市主管機關出具之臺灣未來帳戶結餘金額證明文件與金融機構開立專戶專攻存入前開帳戶結餘金額之用"},{"start":25609.727,"end":25632.347,"text":"前項專戶內置賬戶節餘金額於開戶人滿18歲之日起10年內準用第一項規定第25條主管機關為執行本條例相關工作所需之個人資料得洽請相關機關購法人團體或個人提供之受請求者無正當理由不得拒絕第26條主管機關得接受各界捐贈款"},{"start":25633.027,"end":25653.506,"text":"用於臺灣未來賬戶基金專款專用 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謝謝昭緯 是不是請我們這個部長請石部長"},{"start":15.973,"end":38.096,"text":"林委員好保庭你好上個禮拜三台中榮總神經外科爆出這個醫學上的醜聞科主任兩位還有網紅有5.6萬名粉絲的網紅醫師對外還主打脊椎手術是吃飯的技能原來是業配的"},{"start":39.497,"end":65.98,"text":"业务医材厂商业务的技能然后在进行脊椎内试镜微创手术对骨刺、坐骨神经痛、椎间盘突出脊椎滑脱等症状处理的主要的微创手术在未经病人同意下在病人麻醉不知道的状况下放任无照的医材厂商业务手术指导"},{"start":67.381,"end":91.269,"text":"那時間還長達三年那提供的手術畫面非法的證據這個有主任有2023年就開始的也有去年的那我們都知道說據了解那個無照的醫材廠商長臉幫醫師執刀的綽號叫做小老鼠"},{"start":92.78,"end":102.237,"text":"更是台中榮總的名醫小老鼠是名醫隱形的地下的指定的主刀業待醫師"},{"start":105.014,"end":123.904,"text":"但其實是醫材廠商而且主要是針對內視鏡器材的相關更換他的專業幫微創手術內視鏡器材的相關更換是小老鼠的專業專業就這樣做著做著然後就變成名醫了"},{"start":128.146,"end":141.195,"text":"那在這種狀況裡面我們知道每台內視鏡手術大約大概花費10萬元可以完成的但據知情人士表示這些醫師 網紅醫師 主任"},{"start":144.457,"end":169.506,"text":"然後他們開了內視鏡手術加上自費的等等加起來30萬到40萬經常的是每個月開5台到10台來計算三年算下來至少有一兩百位的患者在被麻醉不知情的狀況裡面然後被醫材廠商業代醫師假醫師操刀部長你是說怎麼樣"},{"start":174.64,"end":200.622,"text":"跟委員說明在過去醫療行為我們把它明確的定義為核心業務跟輔助業務那核心業務一定是醫師親自執行那麼手術麻醉我們都是把它定位為核心業務是要醫師親自執行的手術麻醉也是另一種專科也是醫師對 也是要醫師執行也是有另一種麻醉科"},{"start":201.443,"end":225.444,"text":"医师的执照的所以以这个脊椎手术或者是神经外科的手术这个如果是如同委员所提的这个涉及到是不是如同我所提的上个礼拜三你跟人家说一个礼拜以内你要提出调查报告到现在三四五六日今天第六天来说不是我提的"},{"start":226.084,"end":251.864,"text":"就是说我是要问你说你们调查的内容赵委员这个描述的内容那这个会涉及到医师法28条的密意罪那个是刑事责任的不是啊不对你都不知道你都不知道光是现在就可以伤害罪论处这一个小老鼠了那叫什么老鼠对小老鼠对吧不要讲医疗法伤害罪"},{"start":255.401,"end":270.312,"text":"傷害罪還有不要講醫療法醫師法不要講醫師法你知道現在這個醫師還有一起在密閉的手術房裡面的人共同涉及犯什麼罪嗎你不知道加重詐欺罪"},{"start":277.833,"end":294.825,"text":"加重詐欺罪 六個月以上不能緩刑 不能預科罰金這樣你聽得懂嗎 如果認真去調查不是這個醫生而已 你詐欺這個病人"},{"start":297.585,"end":311.541,"text":"當同伙三個人以上手術室不只三個人吧所以這個案子我們也請衛生局去調查但是沒錯 李鳳鑫因為我們知道這個裡面醫療糾紛不受理"},{"start":318.644,"end":336.13,"text":"沒關係 加重詐欺跟傷害罪這個不是依究法的範疇喔 這普通刑法喔可以的喔 可以辦的喔但是他如果再加一個依究法沒辦法 沒辦法 依究法停擺"},{"start":337.49,"end":363.369,"text":"我們當時醫療法鑑定 停擺醫療法鑑定我現在問你 無照的醫材廠商跟刀跟刀變開刀 行之很多年了冰凍三尺 非一日之寒你知道你以前也處理過 你也對外講過你記得多久以前嗎"},{"start":366.584,"end":392.318,"text":"委員講的是哪一件2019年4月媒體披露醫界人士透露業帶跟進手術房教學兼販售的情形然後傳出有人從跟刀變動刀儘管醫師法禁止非醫療人員去指導但對於進入手術室的人員身份"},{"start":393.238,"end":417.878,"text":"並沒有限制一定得是醫療人員所以法規規範不到的模糊地帶大家問你說醫病安全該怎麼把關那現行法規2019年的時候人家也有問你有沒有限制進入手術房的人員的身份你怎麼幫醫病安全把關你當時是怎麼說我當初不記得"},{"start":425.781,"end":446.405,"text":"你說當時是司長他說新興的一些或新購的一些儀器設備在這個使用的初期的確有需要業者的協助說明那當務之急在實務上它有必要性但是你說手術一定是醫師親自執行的那麼其他的輔助助手也好器械也好"},{"start":447.065,"end":466.426,"text":"因為這是一個團隊的過程他一定有其他醫事人員的協助這個也沒有問題但是對於這個完全不具有醫事人員身份者他是不能夠直接來進來執行手術的那人家問你說可不可以進去手術室完全沒有資格的人可不可以進去手術室"},{"start":468.174,"end":494.589,"text":"然後你沒有正面回答你說有分區作業的管理規定包含清潔區、無菌區以及動線的規劃這些在醫院評鑑裡面有詳細的要求了所以你沒有回答那今天再問你一下今天這個業帶它已經有做好全身消毒的清潔那依照現行的法規它可不可以進去"},{"start":495.816,"end":518.935,"text":"我聽委員剛剛念的我當時候講的好像也都正確啦到至今仍然適用啦但是當時候我沒有回答到的今天要補充好你來補充就是說我們現在的醫療科技的進步確實有一些設備他需要有這個技術人員也好或者是熟悉這個設備的廠商也好進去協助"},{"start":519.275,"end":531.064,"text":"你的意思是說醫生要開刀以前對這些設備都還不熟悉還不熟悉就要幫病人抄刀然後使用這些設備這樣東西比較容易碰到沒有不是這樣那些東西要組裝要組裝"},{"start":536.328,"end":553.962,"text":"已经要准备要组装要组装比如说我们达文西手术那整支要怎么倒不是组装好了不是组装好了我们才能起来不是他要组装然后医师才能操作所以他会进入到里面去协助现在很多"},{"start":555.463,"end":571.497,"text":"在现场所以你的意思是他们还是可以进入手术室但是必须要有规范比如说他要懂得这个手术室里面的无菌区跟这个那你们现在有规范吗"},{"start":574.798,"end":581.345,"text":"在這個正式上我們沒有規範是由醫院內進去規範純粹醫材的廠商的業務進去幫忙組裝這些醫材那現行有沒有規範"},{"start":589.392,"end":609.303,"text":"我想我们要做一个指引让医院内部所以你们还没有指引据我的了解很多医院是有他自己内部有规范我是在问你说但是我们现在由卫务部来做一个指引我们来做让所有的医院所以现在还没有指引那我问你他们这个"},{"start":610.624,"end":630.621,"text":"無照醫材業務代表代刀集中在哪些科別人家說集中在骨科脊髓外科神經外科甚至因為這是一個業務的這個區域所以甚至集中在哪些醫院還是特定哪些區域你有沒有了解了"},{"start":631.351,"end":649.859,"text":"这个我们要再进一步了解科别因为这三个科听起来就是他的那个用的这些设备现在特别是这些机器手背之类的比较多那所以医院都人力短缺然后你们现在就是要开放医材"},{"start":651.298,"end":673.87,"text":"廠商的助手可以進去手術的時候當助手你現在是要開放這個嗎我們要有一個指引來規範你是要開放這個嗎因為人力短缺嘛這個有它的必要性它有這個器械的熟悉度我現在找幾種視角有醫生曾經這樣講因為2019年人家就檢舉了然後就說了就問了"},{"start":674.73,"end":695.502,"text":"所以2019年江冠宇醫師也是蠻有名的聯合醫院中心院區的主治醫師他說他在臉書曾經說適用新醫材如骨科神經外科總會有一些新玩意兒出來但是操刀的醫師未必熟悉適當的角度這個時候有業代的協助操作空間"},{"start":698.069,"end":712.724,"text":"但是他說自己他將慣於跟過神經外科的刀大家都知道人力的關係那麼非技術性的如拉鉤這種刀柱等級都不到的根本是實習醫師等級的"},{"start":714.426,"end":724.995,"text":"人手不夠就會請業代醫師代勞這樣主治醫師才有辦法跳刀去接另外一台刀就把今天的報表的這個報滿的刀表給抄完所以這個是醫師"},{"start":730.92,"end":749.363,"text":"曾經這樣子說那江冠宇醫師這個講法就是連醫師同儕之間他也在證實醫材業務代表業帶帶刀確實有此事喔已經不是去協助組裝醫材是帶刀喔"},{"start":751.068,"end":774.513,"text":"有这种事我们在未来的指引里面会把它理清楚他们进去之后能够做什么事不能够做什么事情还要应该有基本的哪一些训练指引人家信叨指引指引可以有足够的约束力吗指引这个后面就是我们刚刚提到的医疗法 医师法就会有相关的法则"},{"start":776.443,"end":801.549,"text":"醫師法都講了因為侵入性行為你這無照的醫師你做這種侵入性的醫師的行為都有刑責了他就沒在信道理啊你現在只做指引夠好這查明的如果是執行的醫師法第28條就有刑責了那個就是移送檢調啦"},{"start":802.472,"end":818.064,"text":"沒有啦 現在就變成常態啊要移送就完嗎我現在要跟你說喔 我剛才說的不要供醫施法有刑者喔加重詐欺罪連交保 連一顆罰金都不可以喔"},{"start":819.625,"end":848.202,"text":"加重詐欺罪 藉由醫生就要抓奇怪非怪不可再來傷害罪這個業務業待醫師 假醫師也有傷害罪 也要抓奇怪如果沒有人在怕 繼續做因為這些人知道沒有人 如果沒有檢舉沒有本人會出事現在我剛才講江冠宇醫師講的是什麼江冠宇醫師講的是"},{"start":850.114,"end":877.625,"text":"他說其實是證實啊 證實就是都這樣啊你再收一個指引要怎麼講有法律就不怕 還怕指引嗎法律都不怕了還怕指引嗎指引的目的是讓醫院按照我們的指引去定他的規範指引 有法律就要有處分有法律有處分 這才是法律的作用有法律放者不敢處分"},{"start":878.745,"end":882.868,"text":"這個法律沒好企啊現在就是可以去管的也不敢用查明了 該移送檢調就移送檢調這個沒有模糊的空間"},{"start":891.054,"end":915.745,"text":"這就有爆料的 有沒爆料的沒人知道我現在跟護理師講法護理師在臉書粉專貼文外行人覺得驚訝 內行人早已見怪不怪各大醫院中很多外科手術都由廠商業代在刀房協助完成這個是醫療界普遍認為早就是公開的秘密了"},{"start":916.545,"end":940.448,"text":"而且廠商為了求推廣產品必須手把手的教導醫師使用畢竟對自家產品最了解的是廠商不是醫師然後從專業跟經驗累積角度來看廠商執刀後的成果比專業的醫師本人操刀更完美也很正常"},{"start":941.309,"end":955.256,"text":"所以衍生一些問題比如說膽子越來越大的醫生可能如同放風箏一樣手越抓越鬆風箏越飛越遠搞到最後一個主治醫師同時守好幾間房"},{"start":956.957,"end":963.72,"text":"仔細看全部都是業代跟住院醫師在開所以從指導醫師變成監軍來吊詭的事這護理人員第一線在臉書上貼的他說吊詭的是這樣的非法模式卻可以有效的擴張醫療量能"},{"start":979.201,"end":990.506,"text":"甚至維護醫療手術的品質說到底這其實是醫療崩壞下人力短缺所產生出來的另一片知秋知夜"},{"start":991.894,"end":1014.628,"text":"所以許多人包括我都認為應該趁機檢討現行法律跟制度無論是退場或是就地合法都應該給出明確的制度來保障各方權益然後不好聽的實話是事件的起源不是醫療疏失也不是因為他造成傷害然後去個個"},{"start":1015.929,"end":1041.923,"text":"讓大家盡量知道竟然事件的起源是來自於人們檢舉的不是那個病人去檢舉的還是去收購的都不是那中融最可能的處置方法就是懲處個別醫師對外宣稱將嚴格要求廠商遵守規定只能間接指導設備使用不可以接觸病人"},{"start":1043.462,"end":1050.268,"text":"也就是維持現狀而第一時間衛福部表明將個案處理大概也不會通盤檢討這是護理師這是護理師"},{"start":1061.018,"end":1082.05,"text":"那醫學中心怎麼講呢不具名的醫學中心高層表示醫療設備廠商進刀房幫忙是公開的秘密畢竟現在醫護人力嚴重不足把廠商當做人力使用很常見尤其是私立醫院凡事都要談成本廠商協助手術只要發揮"},{"start":1083.231,"end":1107.968,"text":"那個消毒手術的服裝口罩的費用幾乎零成本所以確實有聽說一些醫院讓業者協助開刀那這些醫材廠商的業務視角他們怎麼理解呢醫材廠商的業務說哎呦反正這個出問題了手術醫生一定會自己扛他們說他有一個叫小龍的這個是媒體報導的"},{"start":1110.302,"end":1125.413,"text":"他是大學傳播學系畢業的在朋友介紹下進入醫產公司擔任業務平常常跑醫院開發客戶沒有想到有一天竟然會被要求進開刀房協助醫師操作器械甚至參與手術關鍵步驟"},{"start":1127.515,"end":1150.048,"text":"然後他說 這個行業水很深醫材採購存在許多不成文的規則加上部分資深或有威望的醫師不願意花時間學習新器材的操作便把比較簡單的技術環節交給熟悉產品的業務處理久而久之就形成業務帶刀的灰色地帶"},{"start":1151.129,"end":1164.876,"text":"然後這個小龍爆料業務之所以敢盡手出事因為大家都心知肚明一旦出事了醫生他會說這是我帶刀的絕對不可能承認讓業務去直刀"},{"start":1166.637,"end":1181.914,"text":"所以只有誰不知道你知道嗎大家護理師也知道醫院也知道醫師也知道廠商的醫材廠商的業務也知道就只有誰不知道只有被麻醉躺在那裡的病人不知道還有衛福部不知道"},{"start":1183.447,"end":1209.613,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的是希望說這個講出來問題很多 不對這要怎麼解決 要怎麼通盤檢討跟委員說明 我也問了幾位院長他們都跟我說沒有這回事但是既然委員提到說這個什麼網路上或媒體上這樣子的報導好像是一個蠻常見的現象那我們一定會正視這個問題"},{"start":1211.314,"end":1218.442,"text":"我現在要講說這個是房間裡面的大象大家都說沒有沒有"},{"start":1220.434,"end":1242.416,"text":"也不是只有台中中榮這個單一偶發事件那調查就局限在有提供證據的個案那我們講是你一定要從制度面通盤檢討你說的確立明確的指引或指原則甚至你應該要提的是吹哨者保護條款"},{"start":1244.481,"end":1266.595,"text":"對不對 你政府哪有這麼多的力量去監督然後呢在操刀手術的過程當中 我剛才講過這裏面參與到包括護理師 他知道他也已經會被控告 加重詐欺犯罪這裏面涉入到看到的"},{"start":1267.751,"end":1275.763,"text":"都加重詐欺犯罪他敢去敢去我問你你需不需要有一個吹哨者保護條款他如果出來檢舉了應該讓他免責啊不是嗎"},{"start":1287.388,"end":1305.914,"text":"這個跟委員說明第一個我們會重申會讓所有的醫院跟衛生局都了解這樣規範應該是怎麼規範那麼如果違反這個規範會涉及到的相關的罰則或者是法律的責任是什麼像如果大家都知道了醫師法第28條"},{"start":1308.855,"end":1315.917,"text":"我們要去重申他這個界線在哪裡那些人都結構性的犯罪如果出來檢舉的人自己也要有刑責是齁沒有人敢說如果說出來就有刑責會被告我覺得你更需要的可能是吹哨者保護條款免責出來檢舉的人免刑責是不是在這裡我告訴你"},{"start":1339.664,"end":1368.323,"text":"現在年紀到一個狀況以後追肩盤問題骨骼問題然後需要使用這些高單價的內視鏡微創醫療醫材的手術的人很多但是護理師出走刷手護理師流動率上升非教學醫院的骨科醫師沒有住院醫師也沒有經驗老道的刷手護理師要怎麼樣維持好的品質沒有辦法"},{"start":1369.224,"end":1382.937,"text":"人家沒去非教學型的醫院沒行李然後這個高收益的脊椎內視鏡微創手術成為骨科次專科當中的顯學行李最好"},{"start":1384.278,"end":1401.54,"text":"每項技術的成熟都跟學習曲線有關結果這種醫生要訓練好開這個刀至少要練20到100次才能獨立開好一台刀結果大家什麼要叫人做練習的大家也沒有人要做醫師練刀的對象"},{"start":1402.541,"end":1429.055,"text":"人力不足然後獲利壓力技術門檻三重狀況裡面專精於特定急隨內視鏡手術的廠商協助自然就進來了就成為醫療利益的共同默契換句話說啦這一種不法的行為已經固化到成為醫療產業鏈當中的共同默契還有生存的相互依賴"},{"start":1430.336,"end":1454.168,"text":"那你怎麼會抓得到 不可能抓得到所以你要如何去抓出揪出隱藏在手術燈下的不法行為你才能夠保障病患的權益啊我們現在說得難聽一點今天醫生的專業已經去受到挑戰了一個醫材商做操刀比你一個醫生還更賢熟這樣不就是醫生"},{"start":1457.745,"end":1486.074,"text":"對不對 做醫生的專業被挑戰耶然後你的管理和督導責任都沒了然後制度不嚴謹或明知或默許的不合規的情形發生然後醫院的行政責任只能說有檢舉這裡嗎沒有檢舉沒有如果檢舉下去呢大家都要行責事後你沒有吹哨者保護的條款所以這是常見的狀況但不合法也不合理啊"},{"start":1487.423,"end":1504.129,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面當商業利益滲透到醫療決策醫療行為的時候醫師的專業的建立你看蕩然無存日本也是這樣啊有指引啊日本的指引2008年就有醫療機構等場所醫療設備配備的標準"},{"start":1508.793,"end":1529.984,"text":"結果在去年日本還是發現醫材商在有指引的狀況裡面在手術過程當中還是在協助醫師操作X光設備啊所以我在這裡我是要告訴你說制度性的全面性的以外我現在第一優先建議催少者保護條款"},{"start":1532.472,"end":1557.328,"text":"沒什麼人跟我說 你說你制度面建立好了但是 也是繼續來這樣做啊因為就沒夠人啊 因為已經沒夠選手啊因為還需要人來選啊就白人在這裡罵罪啊 不知道 對白人不公平啊所以檢舉的條款 吹哨者保護啊吹哨者保護條款第一重要 你可以認為嗎你可以認同嗎"},{"start":1560.222,"end":1577.851,"text":"我們來研究看看不過應該要加重的是醫院管理者的責任因為醫院不是多大的空間加重這個醫院管理者的責任是首先現在你開放業帶可以進入手術房你現在說要訂指引要讓他們可以進去"},{"start":1579.111,"end":1599.525,"text":"有進去就有操作的空間了以前沒有開放業帶進去偷偷摸摸現在業帶進去你開放了偷偷摸摸進去裡面不用偷偷摸摸但在裡面做什麼更沒有人知道只有在裡面的人知道在裡面的人講出去每個人都犯法"},{"start":1600.385,"end":1622.648,"text":"你沒有給他催哨者保護 這樣更不可能平衡啊醫院你看到這樣子而已 醫院的管理者也是很忙碌我們老實說 你說這件事真的是知識體大喔知識體大 所以我們在這個我們希望強化病人的知情權和參與喔"},{"start":1625.089,"end":1653.37,"text":"非醫療人員如果在場你不要忘了要以文件詳實記錄而且要取得受訴者知道吧我受訴者要知道誰參與我的醫療處置即便非醫療人員非醫事人員在場他是做什麼的也應該寫清楚我這一刀裡面有誰是非醫事人員他也會進來他要做什麼至少讓當事人知道吧"},{"start":1654.731,"end":1672.22,"text":"應不應該這個我會通盤來檢討那麼也因應這個技術跟能力的需要因為我們其他還有就是我們本來就有輔助人力在嘛那個就是醫事人員背景的輔助人力但是現在沒有公民政策"},{"start":1675.782,"end":1692.853,"text":"這個人力的協助的時候應該也要有一些訓練接受一些正規沒有啦你以前可以下去的都是麻醉科不是超大醫師啦相關需要的醫事人員護理師麻醉科醫師現在是要醫財商可以下去你現在要開放嘛要下去可以你給受訴者知情權啦"},{"start":1698.717,"end":1716.965,"text":"他不能接觸病人簡單的講就是我要知道有人在萬一有醫療糾紛發生了我就可以知道有誰在有沒有可能非醫療人員非醫師搞阿蟲他當然提出他權力保障的時候他要去調資料看對不對灰色地帶要補的規範很多"},{"start":1721.647,"end":1742.574,"text":"但是我在這裡要強調要以病人安全為優先的統一規範要以病人中心主義來去做相關的制度面的彌補才是最重要的啦好 謝謝我們來把您的意見把它納進來好 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但是據我了解好像現在是不是兩個機關就這個部分來講是有爭議我想因為照法因為法條上面我記得寫的就是行政院要編列相關預算"},{"start":77.188,"end":91.32,"text":"所以很清楚的基本上就是內政部不照顧退休的警消該編他不編所以剛剛羅委員應該講的沒有錯就這個部分來講的話就是賴政府基本上就是不願意"},{"start":93.143,"end":111.121,"text":"這個提高退休景銷的所得替代率所以到目前為止都沒有編列預算那接下來呢我想再就教就是循序部跟考試院因為我們知道在去年12月27號其實總統已經公布了退休"},{"start":112.482,"end":132.158,"text":"公教人員就是已經公布了這個退休金提侃法案那這個提侃法案裡面呢當然我們法條寫得非常清楚也就是這個退休所的替代率會回到就是112年的水準那麼就這個部分來說其實最重要的目的就是希望能夠讓"},{"start":135.2,"end":161.313,"text":"在107年退休金年改的方案当中能让退休公教人员的权益能够让他止血停损所以我们并不是恢复到107年而是考虑到现在的物价的上涨各方面的因素所以我们将所得替代率恢复到112年"},{"start":162.614,"end":189.44,"text":"那麼這個法公布了之後事實上本席發現這個全區部那麼日前所做的這個所發布的新聞稿那麼竟然會認為說在針對113年跟114年已經退休的公教人員他們已經被扣掉的這個退休金那麼為什麼不能夠發還給他們對於他已經易扣的金額"},{"start":190.9,"end":213.682,"text":"已經預扣退休金的差額這個部分難道不應該要依法依照我們的公務人員的退休之前撫恤法第37條的規定它基本上就已經回溯到112年了那麼請問考試院還有全區部你們是怎麼樣依法解釋的"},{"start":215.855,"end":238.92,"text":"這個事的關鍵點是在這個法律新修正的法律哪一天生效那因為總統是12月26號公佈28號生效那在修正的條文中並沒有追溯生效的條文所以在等於是說在12月27號以前我們全巨部這邊不只是全巨部就是我們整個退休金的發放就依照舊法"},{"start":239.6,"end":257.892,"text":"那從生效後適用新法所以它的效果現在的修正文字效果會變成從新法生效起恢復到112年的好 謝謝秘書長剛剛說明我要講的就是你們讀條文你要從第一項開始一直往後讀到第六項"},{"start":259.369,"end":279.427,"text":"你第一項裡面基本上本來就講的本法公佈施行前退休生效者的每月退休所得就是於本法公佈施行後不得超過一替代率上限計算的金額所以我們是修單37條的第6項而且在這個條文裡面本來就已經有了這個回溯的意思否則的話不會講說這個付表從113年之後不再適用"},{"start":283.53,"end":311.927,"text":"那麼同時也講所有的退休之前跟之後就在本法公布施行之前或之後的所有的退休人員他的所得替代率就是停留在112年的這個標準那我們在整個的當時修法的討論的過程當中是非常清楚的可是現在變成你全序部你自己做了曲解的這樣的一個法律的解釋我們不這個條文"},{"start":314.256,"end":340.709,"text":"給非常多的法學專家看大家不會解釋成像你們這個樣子的說這個已經把這個現在的退休公教人員已經扣掉的113年跟114年的這個退休金差額竟然可以政府自己扣在那裡不發還你們知道這叫什麼嗎這叫做公法上的不當得利呀你們扣這筆錢是沒有法律上的原因的"},{"start":341.611,"end":360.182,"text":"如果所有替代率都恢復到112年這個對基金損害財富損害比較大的部分我們都願意依法執行的話其實沒有必要去在小地方做這樣的處理但是事實上你的說法就是你為什麼要在這個地方去做歪曲法律的解釋所以這是本心非常感到"},{"start":361.523,"end":378.841,"text":"真的看到考试院跟全序部你们的态度我非常的痛心是很多的公教人员都认为说考试院跟全序部难道不应该是所有的公教人员的大家长吗就你们完全没有爱护公教的这样的一个心情然后呢动不动"},{"start":379.341,"end":393.03,"text":"都是在做這個違反整個法律立法者當時修法本意的一個解釋同時來你們接下來說現在的這個之後的新的審定函你們會什麼時候發"},{"start":395.114,"end":406.659,"text":"大概需要六個月的時間為什麼需要這麼長的時間現在的系統不是就已經在了嗎系統需要修正系統需要這麼長的時間嗎這明明我跟你講現在的新的發的審定函非常簡單就是未來所有的公交人員退休金的支領就是以112年的所得替代率為準你理論上你這個審定函113年以後的人沒有112年那個數字"},{"start":423.317,"end":438.696,"text":"113年没有122年的数字因为113年以后退休的人他不会有一个112年的数字不是就是以112年的为准所以如果说他现在也是未来不管任何时候退休的人都要使用的所以这个系统要重新去处理"},{"start":439.045,"end":444.711,"text":"你們本來就在112年就有個系統就有個參數所以我覺得你們現在是把事情複雜化他基本上就是簡單的修一個參數就可以了他不需要像你們這樣還要重新再開發個系統再製作個系統"},{"start":455.743,"end":463.708,"text":"我本心認為說你們現在就是故意在拖延時間我們不用故意拖延時間我們要讓公務同仁有合理的執行時間然後宣告我們這次的退休金提侃法案是違憲這個是兩個分開的事情"},{"start":473.885,"end":489.185,"text":"在我看來這就是一件事我們要讓現在的公務同仁有合理的執行時間而且我們也參考了107年年改的重新核算時間跟去年警察人士條例之後我們重新核算的時間這個半年推估是合理的是跟委員說明"},{"start":490.427,"end":519.259,"text":"好 那這半年裡面你們多扣的這些退休公教的退休金你們要連本帶利還給他們嗎他們的錢就不是錢你們退服基金你們認為說你們繼續撲的錢才是錢嗎如果後面審定出來之後該補的當然要補但是委員您剛剛講113 114年這個部分如果當時立法原意上有希望追溯到113年因為要生效的話在我們的原本的條文裡面"},{"start":520.299,"end":536.477,"text":"就已经规定的清清楚楚了现在本席不在这边跟你再讲这个事情为什么因为这是非常清楚在我们所有的法案当时修正讨论当中以及从我们的第37条38条从第一项读到最后一项"},{"start":537.455,"end":560.878,"text":"就是所有退休在本法公布施行前退休和之後退休的人所得替代率就是停在112年因此你之前給人家多扣的退休金本來就應該要發還好 那麼當然就是我本身知道你們現在跟行政院一樣就是提起釋憲之後反正能不動就不動所有的審定函然後都能夠拖拖半年"},{"start":562.7,"end":585.076,"text":"我們會透過其他的方式我們會要求如果說你們認為說你們這樣子的退休審定還半年才做出來是合理的話那我們來看看你們未來是不是這個考試院其他的預算的部分我們也讓你拖個半年啊你都不要有錢花啊這不是這說起來是很荒謬的一件事情明明就是個簡單的事可是你們今天要故意把它搞得很複雜然後政治化你們的心中還有軍公教嗎"},{"start":590.182,"end":601.34,"text":"重新審定真的需要時間委員施部長您還是大學教授然後來轉任藉調當政務官你不是不知道這些公教人員的心情"},{"start":602.591,"end":617.501,"text":"但是呢 本席認為說你在很多的這個議題特別是在退休金改革的議題處理上面你都沒有將心比心而且呢 處處是刻薄這些公教人員對不對 法律的解釋不是你詮訊部的解釋我們的立法已經清清楚楚了我想我們今天還可以硬拗拗成這個樣子讓本席真的是非常的感慨喔我不好是講說你們做的這樣行為非常的無恥"},{"start":632.711,"end":654.206,"text":"我們的生肖日就寫得清清楚楚的生肖日並沒有去追溯到前面去跟委員做這樣的報告我們沒有要拖半年委員如果妳了解行政事務可以去多問一下我們之前都是用這種標準的作業程序在處理"},{"start":654.906,"end":671.207,"text":"我也去问了但是这是一个非常非常复杂的一个程序基本上不需要这么久的时间好那接下来我要问的就是说你现在依照警察条例另外审议的推出所的替代率你们说已经完成了37790人的案件的审议是所有符合资格的都已经审议完成了吗"},{"start":671.647,"end":696.628,"text":"根据内政部给我们的解释符合的资格我们就进行审定那请问这次的有关于内政部移民署的相关人员有没有适用我想这是内政部的解释他并不适用那所以现在就是对于内政部移民署里面的相关人员他们基本上这个不在你们这次合法的推出审定函里面是吗是的根据内政部的解释好所以这个是属于内政部的问题那今天内政部"},{"start":698.53,"end":711.318,"text":"移民署沒有在 但是人事行政總署可以做解釋嗎當然如果移民署裡面有原來適用警察觀證他當然有 不是全部這有內政部來做解釋的好 有內政部的代表嗎"},{"start":712.874,"end":738.403,"text":"委員好那之前那個群聚部這邊有請我們的警政署針對移民署的部分哪些人可以適用這個警察人員的35條修正的內容那當時警政署有依照警察人員是條例回覆給群聚部就是最後在退休的時候是警察官身份的他就可以依照這個修正後35條來重新擬定他的這個所得替代率那以上報告那所以有多少人呢"},{"start":742.493,"end":743.842,"text":"我現在是講移民署的部分"},{"start":746.803,"end":770.74,"text":"我們可能要再跟移民署確認一下因為今天沒有請移民署好那之後麻煩請你們提供資料給本席因為這次在警察人員條例第35條裡面其實本來有提到有關於移民的這個相關的人員那所以就這個部分的話應該也要合理的應該是在適用警察人員的這個新的退休制度所得替代率提高的範圍裡面"},{"start":771.721,"end":797.54,"text":"好 然后接下来的话我想请教的是有关于全序部那么我们知道在去年十月的时候考试院通过了重大的改革全面调高直辖县市政府所属机关职等上限那么总计涵盖了有590个机关3500个职务可是呢事实上就是在这一波里面去年的那一波大调升里面似乎没有包含公立学校服务的广大的这个职员我们是以全界机关为主"},{"start":801.673,"end":805.356,"text":"行政機關為主所以有關於公立學校的相關公務員我想這個部分我們目前你們沒有打算要調生嗎一併檢討因為我們現在知道在大學裡面還有高中以下的學校裡面其實還有一些公務員如果有其他個案我想我願意多了解但是我們這次的調生是以特定的職務做調生並不是所有人都調整"},{"start":828.086,"end":831.889,"text":"好本期希望說你們能夠針對就是在學校服務的公務人員的職等要進行一個檢討調整畢竟就是現在在整個公立學校裡面的公務人員的職等是偏低而且長期以來都沒有調整所以呢可不可以就請你們一個月內給本期一個報告到目前為止在公立學校裡面的這個相關公務員他們的職等分配已經多少年沒有調整"},{"start":857.927,"end":865.238,"text":"那預計未來要怎麼樣進行改革 可以嗎可以提供給委員好 那麼最後一個部分這可能是跟人種有關那可以請兩位"},{"start":868.159,"end":888.688,"text":"这个部长跟秘书长可以先请回座那么我现在要讲的就是说本期在这个前两周去参访考试院的时候那时候其实书记官们大家有反应对于现在书记官的这个待遇还有他们的专业家籍偏低那么同时呢也针对就是有关于记录费的部分"},{"start":889.448,"end":915.388,"text":"那么始终没有办法就提高所以至于现在书记官还有相关的事务官他们离职率很高那么根据公务人员的加挤办法的规定看起来我本来以为是全序部考试院可能会是加挤的主管机关但是目前是属于人事总组这里负责公务人员各个不同职系的加挤对吧对"},{"start":916.485,"end":937.992,"text":"是 那所以你們就這個部分你們會預計要來調整嗎跟委員報告 這個不管是司法院法務部啦所以是有關於紀錄書紀官的這個他的專業佳績的部分其實都有持續跟我們人種處在做相關的討論有持續做專業討論 來 我們請王富敏"},{"start":941.499,"end":969.545,"text":"你知道你们这个司法人员的这个相关的记录书记官等等这些标准他们的专业家籍是从什么时候现在是4700元是对这是什么时候制定的这个法务部知道吗我这里的资料民国86年86年的时候制定的30年都没有动啊是可能要请副人事长"},{"start":971.269,"end":983.725,"text":"張副人事長 是本席去參訪了司法院那邊的法官 書記官他們的反應 修這個專業家籍也不是司法院有權利可以修對 他會報告行政院"},{"start":985.02,"end":1010.377,"text":"然後幕僚是我們人事總署在作業是 所以可以被請王副秘回去之後競訴像你們認為要調整的合理的專業佳節待遇然後報到人事總署跟委員報告就是過去都有這個就是非正式的一些討論那司法院這部分是還沒有正式的函文那如果這個有正式的函文我們希望能夠調升這個紀錄費"},{"start":1013.909,"end":1024.66,"text":"對 但是我們就是有一些意見的往返那如果這次事件再正式爆出來我們會行政院的相關的會審機關再來繼續做研議"},{"start":1029.649,"end":1041.974,"text":"總之我想這個是個嚴肅的議題我希望司法院能夠多幫基層的書記官還有法官助理等等去多爭取權益如果說該調的就要調現在副人事長這裡說因為你們沒有報"},{"start":1048.337,"end":1065.222,"text":"我不知道是不是這樣但是我希望人事總署也應該積極的去調整各個職系的專業家級看起來不是只有司法院是民國86年訂定這個標準到現在很多的職系的專業家級都沒有調升我覺得這是個嚴重的問題"},{"start":1067.623,"end":1086.15,"text":"希望你們能夠盡量做調整好嗎我們非常感謝委員利用這個機會幫我們爭取那只要人事總署他願意支持我們的話行政上我們一定會是那個那個毫無延誕的立刻衝過去申請的謝謝好OK那就這樣子謝謝那就麻煩就是人事長還有可以嗎"}]}},{"id":"167094","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167094","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce04569624ed5a759b2307671192a7c66aa8783db7b02922c304159dd19c61a0ed75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"15:23:02 - 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請市部長"},{"start":11.439,"end":35.432,"text":"今天大家討論兒童未來帳戶實際上衛福部本來也有一個線型的做法民進黨我看很多委員好像也說他們要一個做法在野黨也有一個做法我來跟這個部長請教一下其中差異第一個我先請問一下現在目前衛福部的做法是針對比較弱勢的家庭對不對一比一的方式要家長"},{"start":36.773,"end":62.838,"text":"提撥然後政府相對基金先問一下甚至一定要家長有我們才會提撥嘛如果針對一些譬如說有一些我隨便舉例民間基金會譬如說家福基金會他們認養的一些孤兒然後他可能家長沒有提撥的這個部分你們有照顧到嗎那個安置而造我們有納入的安置那是誰幫他們出這筆錢"},{"start":66.228,"end":79.563,"text":"角路的錢縣市政府我們現在那個都是縣市政府列管的那個安置的額少那就是由縣市政府撥中央我們也會有"},{"start":80.313,"end":98.926,"text":"所以他們是直接縣政府就一律提撥因為你的你原本現金做法是可以選擇嘛有好幾種金額嘛五百一千一千二所以縣市政府針對那些我剛講比如說家福基金會他們照顧的孤兒然後縣市政府是支出多少是五百還是一千還是一千二"},{"start":100.947,"end":128.479,"text":"剛剛您提的那個是我們有分成是政府安置的跟這個民間的政府監護的才算我剛剛講民間嘛我現在是確認因為就沒有嘛對嘛所以今天你那個部長你這邊在反對在野黨提出來的兒童外障其實你有一個依據你有一個立論基礎啦是講說你應該把資源用來照顧弱勢嘛但實際上你弱勢有一大塊你沒有照顧到啊"},{"start":129.911,"end":148.205,"text":"這個我們可以來檢查所以就並沒有達到你當初你的政策目標嘛這第一件事情那第二件事情是你的帳戶其實很多家長沒有加入嘛對不對那個比例是蠻高的嘛那我相信你也很知道原因嘛因為很多家長覺得說他的錢本來就不夠用還去存這個東西"},{"start":149.406,"end":177.245,"text":"所以並沒有達到照顧弱勢反而我覺得你這個政策應該從另外一個角度思考啦就是從解決少子化或者是讓比如說小朋友那個從小培養理財概念然後到他可以有他的比如說一個一畢業就有一筆錢讓他可以應用無後顧之憂從這個角度來思考這個政策應該要怎麼擴大啊你就可以考慮在黨版本嘛那我看民進黨的立委"},{"start":178.306,"end":197.541,"text":"有一個委員開記者會我是沒有看到具體的內容但是記者會他就是說他也是要擴大不是只有針對弱勢嘛是大家都可以參加嘛對不對但他也是採用1比1就是相對激進的做法然後用ETF的方式"},{"start":198.226,"end":208.205,"text":"那一開始這個民進黨立委會公佈的時候我看到媒體的報導政府單位是樂觀齊成的是覺得委員的想法不錯"},{"start":209.381,"end":231.535,"text":"怎麼到在野黨提出一個類似的也是類似版本只是說在野黨為什麼沒有要求說要相對基金是因為就是考慮到如果有一些家長他不願意加入的話那就剝奪了小朋友參加的權利嘛結果忽然間部長又有意見說沒有裁員又一大堆拒絕的理由說會排擠掉弱勢"},{"start":232.395,"end":252.78,"text":"那為什麼民進黨的委員提的就不會排擠弱勢國民黨或是藍白立委提的黨團版本就會排擠弱勢我就不懂這個標準到底是到底差異性在哪裡啊過去所有的版本我們大概都在評估啦"},{"start":253.48,"end":272.579,"text":"並沒有說支持哪一個一定反對哪一個都在評估但是以我們的政策上是以弱勢優先的考量我們目前是先就我們現有的這個帳戶呢如何來擴大這個適用的對象然後提高它的那個覆蓋率然後讓它更有效益"},{"start":273.621,"end":295.903,"text":"從這個地方先檢討至於說比較普惠性的那個也是一種選擇但是我們就要衡量我們現在的財政能夠負荷的哪一個的急迫性又比較重要那麼就在前面先做所以你看有兩件事情第一件事你一直強調說是對弱勢的照顧可是要不是藍白有提出這樣一個未來帳戶的版本"},{"start":297.065,"end":322.5,"text":"你其實也沒有去檢討說你們這幾年來執行這個弱勢兒童的未來帳戶實際上參與率應該沒有達到你的預期嘛但是一直沒有去做出一些精進的做法包括剛剛問的嘛如果是被民間收養的這些孤兒他們也沒有權利加入啊所以你都沒有注意到這一塊如果今天要不是召委排這樣的一個詢答的話"},{"start":323.3,"end":349.32,"text":"可能對於你之前的帳戶都有在研究啦有在研究但沒有改進嘛有在研究沒有改進啊第二件事情就是我剛講的你說各種版本你們都會仔細評估可是民進黨立委提的喔你們就覺得不錯啊可以來討論啊樂觀其成啊然後藍白提的你們就是說哎呀那個裁員在哪裡啊會不會排擠到這個現有的預算啊會不會影響到對弱勢的照顧啊喔這種"},{"start":350.781,"end":371.961,"text":"講法就南圓北側我希望衛福部如果說你要針對這個因為後續還會有公聽會還會有進一步的討論嘛要一視同仁啦就事論事啦對啊就事論事好不好同一個標準幾個版本喔衝擊財務的衝擊也各自不同那今天這個版本的衝擊算是最大"},{"start":373.103,"end":392.203,"text":"那你有看到別人的版本嗎有有有之前的幾位委員的版本他的有的是沒有這個開戶金啦他只是每年的相對提撥所以他一年的預算衝擊有限那但是今天這個版本因為又有一個這個開戶金所以這個大家可以討論嘛討論嘛"},{"start":395.126,"end":404.418,"text":"但是我覺得不要因為不同政黨你們的回應就不一樣了然後弱勢的照顧也要做到位啦好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17192","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17192","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eaf698f77e6c3706a6340475e8a589b84b0a219bd209750d2db7cef5be806eaa075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。二、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「反滲透法增訂第十一條之一條文草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。四、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「反滲透法第四條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之二條文草案」案。六、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第三條、第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第五條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員林宜瑾等20人擬具「反滲透法第二條、第九條之一及第九條之二條文修正草案」案。【僅詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-12T08:34:39+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-12T12:12:00+08:00","duration":13041,"影片長度":"03:37:21","委員發言時間":"08:34:39 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只是說如果是中國透過滲透來源來做這些事情的時候在中間的參與者在做這些散播謠言除了本來現行法的處罰之外要必須再加重他的刑責那有一些是行政法的規定我是把它規定在六之二"},{"start":1853.355,"end":1872.571,"text":"所以只是針對這一些來做一些加重讓反滲透法的這個範圍可以變得更為明確另外也有其他的委員可能是針對類型的增加又有可能針對除了滲透來源之外針對灰色地帶的行為人也就是針對滲透來源的定義做一些擴增這個就有待其他的委員說明 謝謝"},{"start":1875.574,"end":1884.493,"text":"謝謝我們感謝沈浦洋委員提案說明我們請王定宇委員提案說明跟兩岸一併說明"},{"start":1894.077,"end":1910.843,"text":"謝謝主席提案委員在這裡向委員會報告也希望能夠儘速完成初步的審查能夠送出讓國家的安全跟相關的法制更加齊備第一個本席提案的說明是有關最低刑度的設立"},{"start":1913.176,"end":1939.307,"text":"在目前的反滲透法第三條到第五條的條文罰則只有最高刑度沒有最低刑度的規定那他會產生什麼問題第一個我們要理解國家安全或者是所有相關的這些案件呢一旦產生對國家利益的傷害非常大但是執法機關不管是檢察官檢調"},{"start":1941.091,"end":1962.313,"text":"調查局或者是警察在偵辦相關的國安案件的時候因為國安案件本身具有高度的隱密性還有牽涉到境外所以查辦是非常的不容易要達到起訴的門檻耗費的人力物力時間比一般刑事案件還要高昂如果沒有最低刑度的門檻"},{"start":1964.656,"end":1991.233,"text":"輕易的給予罰金或緩刑結案會導致威脅的國家威脅的敵方滲透收買的成本呢這個非常低廉被抓到的代價又不大導致國家安全以及偵辦體系的疲於奔命所以我本席在這邊提案我們在最高刑度並沒有調整但是應該加上最低門檻最低刑度讓涉犯"},{"start":1992.012,"end":2021.413,"text":"傷害國家安全的相關的罪行有一個最起碼的處罰否則收買收了錢但是輕易的一顆罰金那仍然在台灣進行相關的腐蝕跟破壞那對於我們國家民主的基礎國家的保障其實是一個很大的傷害第二個提案呢是有關這個懸掛五星旗的部分我第一個要先言明我們在這個提案修法的幾個前提"},{"start":2021.991,"end":2037.76,"text":"第一個 經過主管機關所核准或者國際規範所允許比方說戲劇 文化 交流 國際會議活動場所所懸掛威脅台灣的敵方的旗幟相關的標語"},{"start":2040.277,"end":2065.624,"text":"並不在這個法律規範的限制法律規定的國際規範的申請許可的沒有在這一個限制的範圍第二個以他山之石別國的經驗來看韓國的國安法是禁止懸掛北朝鮮的相關的旗幟那在美國現狀來看如果你去懸掛ISIS恐怖主義的旗幟"},{"start":2066.516,"end":2093.337,"text":"或者是甚至於是相關中東特定的旗幟境外去那邊讀書的人都有可能會被遣返所以就算是民主國家對於這些旗幟的懸掛都有一定為了保護社會保護民主的一個基本規範那以台灣來講我們的立法原由是以武力威脅我國或者武裝力量與我國對峙"},{"start":2094.537,"end":2104.174,"text":"在陸海空軍刑法的第10條或者在我們刑法的徵修條文的我印象是115之一這樣子的對象列為敵國"},{"start":2106.124,"end":2134.18,"text":"那這樣的敵對勢力對我們國家以軍事力量的騷擾威脅惡意非常明確卻時常以模糊意圖弱化我國人民的敵我意識以及弱化我國的防衛意志力來進行相關的滲透可以說是敵人的動作意志非常明確卻因為台灣是民主開放的社會因為種種滲透的作為導致這個界線的模糊"},{"start":2134.82,"end":2148.196,"text":"又援引我们宪法征修条文的第五条第五项第五条第五项里面所讲的是政党的目的或行为危害中华民国之存在或自由民主宪政呃"},{"start":2150.38,"end":2164.456,"text":"這個秩序者違憲這是寫在憲法徵修條文第五條第五項這個條文裡面告訴我們在我們國家的憲法規範裡面就有對民主需要被防衛的憲法基礎"},{"start":2165.359,"end":2188.45,"text":"所以民主這個體制在憲法徵修條文明定著有需要被防衛那所以根據這以上種種本席提出在公共場所懸掛或展示其代表標誌或旗幟者應取締之那相關的法則有寫在立法說明裡面希望這兩個徵修訂的條文能夠讓我們國家防衛的機制更齊備"},{"start":2194.666,"end":2213.978,"text":"讓台灣更安全國家安全跟國防是沒有政黨黨派跟族群的差別只有在國家安全的保障基礎下民主政黨的競爭經濟的發展才有他實質的依靠所以以上是本席的提案說明希望我們委員會能夠儘速通過 謝謝"},{"start":2218.858,"end":2223.027,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝黃定宇委員提案說明我們將廣結委員提案說明"},{"start":2238.356,"end":2266.371,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我針對今天這個反滲透法存在的漏洞提出一個修正的提案那因為現行的反滲透法的法規對於候選人的認定是非常僵化的那導致說現行有幾個案例會讓境外勢力只要選對了時間點來佈局他們的滲透方式就可以大搖大擺的來干預我們台灣民主的選舉卻不必負擔任何的刑責"},{"start":2267.512,"end":2291.83,"text":"所以呢實務上我們已經看到有兩起荒謬的判決第一個是2024年大選的期間台中有一個假民調案有一個網媒的記者加上一個學者那他們受了中共指示發布了九波的總統大選的假民調但是一審的時候法院竟然認定說因為前六波發布的時間是因為候選人"},{"start":2292.67,"end":2318.419,"text":"還沒有完成登記所以他不算正式的候選人就不構成犯罪了然後就判定他無罪那我想要問大家請問在登記之前發布的假民調就沒有誤導選民嗎就沒有破壞民主的影響力嗎所以跟成為候選人前跟後對於實質造成民主的影響不應該用這樣一刀切的方式"},{"start":2319.019,"end":2336.105,"text":"那另外一個是在高雄的受資助的旅遊的造勢案那這個被告呢他收受中共的利益那為特定的候選人舉辦大規模的造勢那也招攬了里長到中國接受旅遊招待那甚至在席間他也只要求"},{"start":2336.625,"end":2357.435,"text":"必須要支持特定的候選人但是法院卻認定說這一些活動發生的期間也是因為對象還沒有正式成為登記的候選人所以也是被判無罪那我認為這就是一個非常明確的法律空窗期境外勢力可以利用在登記前的這段非常多長達數月的時間"},{"start":2359.136,"end":2378.637,"text":"提前進行這一些造勢提前進行這些抹黑的佈局那中共借選其實早就已經開始了那所以如果法律只有抓登記後的行為那反滲透法其實就是在告訴這一些境外勢力說你只要在登記之前動手台灣法律就拿你沒辦法嗎"},{"start":2379.338,"end":2394.531,"text":"那這樣子等於是在保障這些境外勢力提前借選的權利啊所以我認為要強化民主的防衛韌性應該要提前這個候選人的資格的期限也就是我的提案裡面"},{"start":2395.271,"end":2417.002,"text":"只要參選人只要開設了政治獻金專戶成為你參選人之後就應該要適用這個反滲透法不能讓這個登記的日期變成是滲透行為的保護傘所以這個防線應該要往前移才能確保每一次的選舉都能在公平透明而且不受到境外勢力操弄的環境下來舉行謝謝"},{"start":2420.941,"end":2431.601,"text":"謝謝我們感謝黃學園委員提案說明我們再來請大陸委員會兩副主委的業務報告"},{"start":2442.706,"end":2463.541,"text":"大家好承蒙貴委員會邀請針對貴委員會審查反滲透法相關修正草案以下提出本會說明第一個中共長期對我統戰滲透有必要全面檢視國安相關法令那本會樂見各位委員提出草案進行審查討論以釐清規範界限並凝聚共識"},{"start":2465.489,"end":2488.246,"text":"第二 我们主张要强化前端防御与政治参与的管制严惩境外势力的渗透行为第一 本会支持强化对于您参选人等类型人员的管制措施希望能够有效阻断境外势力与出其部件防止其代理人介入我国政党运作或公共议题讨论"},{"start":2490.415,"end":2502.51,"text":"另外公民投票與罷免權也是憲法保障的直接民權本會認同應該擴大限制相關演員受託參與提案以補強法律的視角"},{"start":2504.75,"end":2526.079,"text":"第三有委員已經針對散佈謠言政黨管制措施然後網路平台還國安專庭等議題提出具體的草案那應該可以透過進一步的討論讓草案更加完善第四我們主張是"},{"start":2529.505,"end":2543.376,"text":"對於反滲透法所牽涉到的各項行為應該全面加重刑責以防掛一漏萬意思就是說目前反滲透法是針對政治獻金選舉遊說等行為進行規範"},{"start":2547.489,"end":2575.989,"text":"但是中共在台滲透的太陽很多元形態和手段層出不窮不斷出新那現行的規範是不足以因應滲透行為所以本會樂見大院委員所提關於加重刑事責任的提案然後目前目前各個提案中所涵蓋的犯罪種類是不是算完備我們認為還需要進一步討論"},{"start":2577.642,"end":2604.319,"text":"那第五建立灰色地帶行為申報的機制我們有看到委員有提案要建立灰色地帶行為人的申報機制本會予以尊重那相關的立法先例可以參照美國澳洲或法國等等那最後面對中共日益嚴峻的侵擾和政治干預反滲透法的修正有其急迫和必要性那"},{"start":2606.052,"end":2619.771,"text":"本會將與相關部會合作 那積極配合大院推動修法協議 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝梁副主委的報告我們現在內政部有張是業務報告"},{"start":2627.461,"end":2648.702,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生首先對於各位委員對於內政業務的推動的關注跟指導謝謝 表達有動的感謝那我想今天應邀列席這個大院有關審查包括沈伯陽委員 陳冠廷委員 林黛華委員黃婕委員 王美媛委員及李柏毅委員等人 王定宇委員等人"},{"start":2649.998,"end":2659.129,"text":"林益菁委員那這有關反滲透法裡面的條文裡面總共是有十案那我請就我們本部的意見來跟各位委員做說明那第一個就是有關"},{"start":2661.567,"end":2687.737,"text":"反滲透法第四條的部分有關黃捷委員對於提案禁止任何人受滲透來源指示委託或資助助選對象由候選人擴及包括擬參選人因反滲透法並未就擬參選人有明確定義如參考政治獻金法針對擬參選人之定義系包括特定期間內以依法完成登記或有意登記參選的公職之人員"},{"start":2688.973,"end":2699.785,"text":"如任本法有你將參選人納入規範的必要建議應該要明確地來做一個界定再來是有關李博弈委員等人提案有關"},{"start":2701.209,"end":2722.015,"text":"政列任何人不得受滲透來源指示資助委託參與總統副總統及公職人員選舉政黨初選政黨提名及競選幹部擔任罷免提議人或擔任全國性或地方性的公民投票提案人那如大院有修法共識我們本部予以尊重而至於政列違反上開情形經有罪"},{"start":2722.695,"end":2751.859,"text":"判决确定者不得登记为候选人已结那有关公职人员选报法第26条第4款已经明定惩犯反渗透法第4条之罪经有罪判决确定者是不可以登记为候选人那是不是有重复的规范也并请参酌那第二点就是有关王定宇委员等人提案有关修正反渗透法第3条第4条第5条部分那现行的一个规定受渗透来源指示委托支柱或从事竞助选"},{"start":2753.308,"end":2780.22,"text":"捐贈政治獻金及遊說行為之法則是處五年以下之有期徒刑應無最低法定刑之規定那委員提案修正為處一年以上五年以下有期徒刑那會涉及到我國整體的一個刑罰政策之橫評那我們本部也尊重法務部的意見那第三項就是有關王定宇委員提案修正反滲透法第五條內容有談到包括"},{"start":2782.182,"end":2803.596,"text":"進行配合統戰工作或具有政治目的之宣傳行為及其處罰規定又違反規定在公共場所升降懸掛展示手持揮舞境外敵對勢力或其政黨軍之代表其自標誌者處以行政法那這個並由警察機關來取締之大院如果有修正的共識我們內政部是予以尊重"},{"start":2804.841,"end":2832.076,"text":"那第四項有關李博義委員沈博洋委員等人分別提案增列反滲透法六條之一那委員提案的針對任何人受滲透來源之指示委託或支柱散播謠言或不實訊息這個範有包括災害防救法第53條第三項平均低廉條例第81條之三第二項及第三項者來分別加重其刑之二分之一或加重刑度為三年以下之有期徒刑得併科新台幣300元以下罰金"},{"start":2833.189,"end":2856.154,"text":"以其二組有關災害或破壞不動產市場的秩序錯假訊息之散佈大院如果有修法共識我們內政部也予以尊重第五項是有關王美惠委員等人提案修正反滲透法第八條的部分在提案內有關針列政黨跟境外敵對勢力合作為滲透行為經法院判決定讞"},{"start":2857.776,"end":2873.946,"text":"主管機關應申請憲法法庭來宣告政黨解散那在政黨法第26條已經有規定政黨法政黨有憲法徵修條文第5條第5項之情事也就是政黨的目的或其行為有危害到中華民國之存在"},{"start":2875.202,"end":2904.265,"text":"或自由民主制憲政秩序者是因於解散來由主管機關檢據相關事證申請司法院的憲法法庭審理之那在同條25條也有規定主管機關是為審議政黨之處分事件及相關事項應聆聘社會公正人士以合一方式來辦理之那本法是不是在與甄列這個申請政黨解散的規定如有修法共識我們內政部也是予以尊重那以上報告也敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":2907.202,"end":2910.905,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝吳常志的業務報告其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在我們來進行詢問 委員詢問前原理作為以下幾點的宣告"},{"start":2931.741,"end":2939.167,"text":"本聯席會委員會的發言時間5分鐘比較的時候我們延長2分鐘在本聯席的委員會的委員會發言時間5分鐘"},{"start":2949.936,"end":2953.378,"text":"會在10點30分定期發言的時間一致這次的會議我們就不需要處理臨時提案請問各位委員有什麼意見嗎沒有我們就這樣可能現在我們來進行詢問請定期第一位的書策會委員發言"},{"start":2986.96,"end":2989.998,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請陸委會梁副主委"},{"start":3000.281,"end":3018.387,"text":"委員好我們想請問一下上個禮拜中國國台辦再次擴大了所謂這個台獨頑固分子的清單又有更多人被列明其上那可不可以在這裡再一次的跟您請教這到底中國為什麼要列明這樣子的一個名單"},{"start":3022.335,"end":3033.519,"text":"它當然最大的目的就是要製造台灣內部的寒山效應是那它實際上也在針對一些它所"},{"start":3035.883,"end":3061.638,"text":"類型化 他要把它類型化譬如說政治人物是一個類型現在增加了這個部會首長然後來增加司法官這個類型是 沒錯 司法人員司法人員這個類型他們特別在意的就是有沒有偵辦國安案件那也不是所有偵辦國安案件的檢察官都會列入而是針對某一些他們特別重視的案件"},{"start":3062.778,"end":3091.209,"text":"所以目前看到是這樣那你覺得效果如何目前看不到效果但是我必須跟委員報告就是說像他們這樣用一個國家的力量然後去宣布要制裁或是追訴個別的人士個別的人士那我想對於當事人來講可能心理上面都會有一些負擔那這也是他們想要得到的"},{"start":3092.908,"end":3100.11,"text":"兩副回答得很清楚也一下就掌握到我今天特別在這個質詢台上想要跟國人社會再一次強調的確實這個台獨頑固分子這樣子用來恫嚇台灣人民的這個名單現在甚至已經擴大到司法人員這是第二次把我國的司法官列名其上"},{"start":3111.574,"end":3129.706,"text":"那司法官本身我相信他們不足以心生畏懼一定持續秉公辦案但是會不會發生其他的效果會不會有更多的這個狀況大家可以看到中國的手確實是越伸越長甚至到司法體系來了所以我覺得其實我們在各種法治的面向上確實應該要來防治"},{"start":3132.708,"end":3152.35,"text":"中國這樣各種勢力的滲透中國各種勢力的進入這是今天我藉著這個上個週末比較少人注意到的連司法人員都再次被列明所謂台獨頑固分子清單再次跟國人提出沉重沉重的呼籲大家應該要注意這樣的事情"},{"start":3153.251,"end":3174.282,"text":"好那回到我們今天的修法來看的話那其實啊梁副我想請問一下其實反滲透法上路到現在已經是6年多了可是因為反滲透法它其實主要的目的是在禁止台灣民眾接受中國等境外敵對勢力的指示委託或資助並且12345"},{"start":3176.503,"end":3193.586,"text":"列明的很清楚只有目前在目前的法規裡面現行法裡面只有五種類型所以上路六年到現在你覺得我們現在的成效如何甚至本院也有委員直接說從民國112年到114年這麼長的期間八成以上的都其實是不起訴可見這部法沒什麼用處吧那您認為呢這部法到底還不應該存在還是我們要怎麼面對它"},{"start":3206.792,"end":3226.18,"text":"我不會認為這部法沒有作用啦那有的時候起訴但是判決無罪並不代表真的無罪所謂判決無罪只是說你沒有辦法證明他有符合法條規定的罪證而已"},{"start":3227.062,"end":3240.688,"text":"那現在的 我覺得反滲透法主要它的問題出在兩個第一個 它所規定的要件是非常的特定"},{"start":3242.329,"end":3266.303,"text":"就只有五種而已啊對 非常特定譬如說剛剛黃捷委員所提出來他針對選罷法的選罷法的部分那就是針對說你已經登記參選了是然後我如果在你已經登記參選以後然後我捐錢給你或者什麼用資金資助你那個才算但是還沒登記參選之前不算那就算黃捷委員的所講的你參選人是過了"},{"start":3267.003,"end":3286.791,"text":"但他還是可以再早一步再更早就把資金到位所以現在問題就是說反滲透法它所規定的東西就是說中共的手法它永遠是比我們快我們今天不管訂了什麼樣的規定它都可以從我們的規定之中找到漏洞去處理"},{"start":3288.332,"end":3308.908,"text":"所以這個是第一個問題那第二個問題就是說反送中法所規定的這些罪行這些罪行其實在我們看來是遠遠不夠的因為反送中法其實它主要規定的是這些政治活動競選然後它有關社會秩序的部分它就是"},{"start":3309.528,"end":3323.436,"text":"它是屬於所謂聚眾鬥毆或是恐嚇公眾等等但是我們現在看到的很多滲透的類型它是叫你去製造謠言它是叫你去打人"},{"start":3324.588,"end":3344.2,"text":"或是去剖欺不只啊甚至是可以說對於我們的物價產生波動這種訊息也可以啊或者是在救災防治的時候擴大我們的災害降低政府應變的策略等等製造對政府的不信任這種都是啊所以今天委員所提出來的各種各項的罪行"},{"start":3345.02,"end":3372.658,"text":"我認為都是從這陸委會的立場來講我們都是樂觀其成但是我還是要必須提醒大家今天不管任何一個因為我們的罪行的列舉是有限罪行的列舉是有限但是中共可以叫這個他在地協力者或他的滲透的對象所去做的事情是無限的他今天如果是去對於某一個人物他要叫人去剖欺"},{"start":3373.841,"end":3399.799,"text":"他去剖欺可是這個東西在我們刑法裡面剖欺甚至不算是什麼罪但是他會造成這樣心理恐懼所以我覺得反滲透法的這個主要的問題不是在於這個法律有用或沒有用而是基於我剛剛所講的一些問題他會無法跟得上中共翻新的腳步"},{"start":3400.74,"end":3424.777,"text":"那還有一個最重要的問題是我們常常在法院在判的時候他都必須要去證明說你是受到對面的指示才來做這些事可是你往往那些指示的範圍或是對象是曖昧不明的那個曖昧不明就是說他可以用他是某某公司的負責人或是什麼單位或是如何他說他不是不屬於中共黨政軍這樣"},{"start":3426.238,"end":3452.757,"text":"所以我覺得反滲透法它還是有用但是我們再討論一下怎麼樣把它完善這樣謝謝副主委因為我覺得你這段話非常的完整清楚又重要所以我幾乎把時間都讓給你了但是我還是覺得是這樣就是您剛剛說的話的部分我想要再做一個整理並且強調我不認為反滲透法是沒有用處的我相信您剛剛也沒有這樣說你認為是還是有用的"},{"start":3453.217,"end":3471.747,"text":"我覺得這一步法第一是確立我國國家的態度不容許境外等敵對勢力利用各種方法進入到我國國內破壞掉人民對政府的信任破壞社會的秩序第一個這步法是一個態度所以應該要必須要能夠完整"},{"start":3472.227,"end":3496.839,"text":"建構這第一個但第二個呢確實包括我們剛剛在講說反滲透法裡面我們最大的這個目標是在確保我們的選舉行為我們的公投行為也就是民主社會裡面非常重要的選舉公投這樣的意志這樣的制度是可以完整的但任何有從事實務的人都知道所謂的選舉所謂的公投那是一個非常長時間的行為不是只有規定選舉期間的那幾天"},{"start":3499.86,"end":3523.176,"text":"絕對不是這樣的期間而已也不是你成為候選人以後才叫做選舉期間民主社會的選舉期是非常長的所以我們在執行了6年之後的反滲透法讓我們看到了現在這部法的困境因此我們要把這一個部分漏洞的部分給補起來所以才會有各個委員提出而且很遺憾的是都只有民進黨委員的版本"},{"start":3524.457,"end":3551.355,"text":"今天的司法裡面全部都是民進黨委員提出版本在對期間也好對身分別也好對行為類型也好我們做了一個更明確的規定這更明確並不是並不是加強對人民的控管而是把事情建構清楚讓大家能夠各司其職各守其位我想這是很清楚的事情我舉第一個例子的話就是應該是說像我們的這本提案書裡面的第一個我"},{"start":3552.435,"end":3573.7,"text":"黃婕委員然後不是沈伯陽林楚茵和羅美玲委員提案我們都有共同簽署的像我自己也有簽署的就在六之一條裡面對於剛剛謠言的部分我們就明確列舉了哪一些法條的這些行為你不應該散佈錯假訊息我想這是很清楚的事情我也希望等一下後面質詢的委員呢不要"},{"start":3574.92,"end":3590.407,"text":"亂了這個主題不要把這個部分我們修反送中法又如同上一個禮拜修國安法一樣認為是在前置人民自由前置人民的行為我覺得這是完全錯誤的說法那我的時間用完了我先到這裡謝謝副主委謝謝謝謝我們感謝蘇僑會委員質詢我們家張志倫委員質詢"},{"start":3606.308,"end":3615.178,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早是不是有請國安局陳副處長以及司法院刑事廳吳法官來吳來"},{"start":3626.462,"end":3646.928,"text":"好 我先報告今天修的是反滲透法也是有關於國安相關的法令之一那根據最新的司法進度我想人民非常關心國家安全那之前社會矚目的總統府跟外交部的共諜案一審已經判決出來了那大概都是被判8年以上的重罪"},{"start":3647.438,"end":3671.232,"text":"那現在在高等法院二審審理所以在立法院我們也正式決議要求現在國安會吳秘書長應該要自行請辭因為他是跟這個案件他是主管的部分可是我們看到這個國安會發表聲明不僅指責立法院我們的認真的監督是政治操作打擊國安團隊"},{"start":3673.453,"end":3688.766,"text":"那我們想要說的是 這個我們是監督政府的立法機關那我們需要真正來檢討的是真正被中共滲透 洩漏長期 滲透機密數年這是我們認為的政府高層的核心"},{"start":3689.426,"end":3714.304,"text":"那這邊我們想要請教這個國安局作為主要的勤制單位那政府的核心的內部防線沒有守住讓共諜潛藏數年那現在我們是不是要請教國安局最近我們內部所有政府單位的集合機要人員的中程查核機制有沒有什麼樣的機制那是不是可以請具體的改進是不是可以回答一下"},{"start":3716.906,"end":3740.46,"text":"是 謝謝委員這個感謝委員對這個議題的關心那有關於這個需要人員這個特查機制這個是由法務部調局來負責那現在這個機制經過這個最近這些狀況那當然在各部會討論之下它已經有所精進也有將這個範圍所這個再去擴大但是細節可能要由這個法務部來說說好 那法務部法務部在嗎來 法務部參事"},{"start":3751.67,"end":3773.182,"text":"特殊查核的部分目前有關公務人員查核分一般查核跟特別查核一般查核就是由各機關來負責那特殊查核的部分目前雖然是由我們法務部的調查局來主責但是因為在來之前我並沒有收到這樣的訊息說要針對特定哪個部會的特殊查核的機制是不是有什麼變化"},{"start":3773.735,"end":3795.335,"text":"我想這部分我這邊可能還沒有辦法仔細的那請說那請問這現在你們針對最近發生的這些案子共諜案內部發生共諜案你們有做什麼樣的精進行為不要講哪個單位整體來講你知道你們有做哪些精進行為嗎是共諜案如果有具體的個案發生檢察官有收到這樣的請辭基本上"},{"start":3796.079,"end":3818.267,"text":"不管在屬於二省專屬管轄的抬高檢或是各地的二省分檢其實都會立刻就會發動相關的懲查組作為另外其實調查局也一直是國安工作裡面很重要的一個角色其實大概都有按照我國的法令然後按照目前當下的情況按照上級的政策指示來加強來查核因為現在的時機確實是"},{"start":3819.611,"end":3829.026,"text":"不同 就這部分的話是法務部作為行政團隊的議員這邊其實都有精力在做好 謝謝 我們再請國安單位的代表"},{"start":3830.209,"end":3856.937,"text":"所以本席在這邊還是要特別要講就是國人最擔心的這我們政府內部有這個共諜的滲入可是剛剛聽到不管是國安局或者是法務部兩邊好像沒有確實到底應該要怎麼做如何精進的一些方式好像沒有特別的一個討論出來的一個結果所以拜託你們後續再可以努力一下把一些具體的成果下次再質詢的時候可以當面說出來好嗎"},{"start":3858.616,"end":3877.982,"text":"是 謝謝委員指導 包括委員這個因為本局是負責情報搜集工作那相關這些狀況本局都有在滾動的更新跟加強的收集那相關案件發生之後我們也有去更新這些手法跟太陽要求各國安情報團隊來去針對這個案件的線索或情資這樣的搜報那有關訊息我們會及時提供給相關黨委來去做徵處好 那接下來我們請司法機關"},{"start":3883.128,"end":3906.02,"text":"這邊我有收到一個這個檢察機關辦理涉反滲透法案件的一個統計我們可以看到這張統計表裡面當時我們都很擔心說這個反滲透法就是我們擔心的就是說對選舉有會有算計或者是針對民眾的一些生活或者對選舉會對民主有開倒車的情形我們看一下在109年反滲透法"},{"start":3907.16,"end":3914.911,"text":"開始以後我們的案件從統計喔我們看到齁在這個偵查的人數來看喔從110年開始是0人111年12人112年29人"},{"start":3918.903,"end":3942.45,"text":"在去年總統大選的時候這個偵查的人數高達477人那不起訴的人數大概是359人這就是我們剛剛要特別提到難道反滲透法是就是在這個選舉期間來大量的來去抓人尤其我們可以知道說這個非常多的我們一般的里長宗教團體跟旅遊團被抓那最後是證明無罪"},{"start":3943.03,"end":3965.848,"text":"所以我們在擔心就是說反滲透法是不是在選舉期間造成人民這個巨大的心理壓力跟名譽損害然後讓社會來再造成寒蟬效應那是不是可以請司法機關解釋一下說為什麼在平常沒有選舉期間這個偵查的人大概都不到50個人那在選舉期間偵查的人數居然高達400多個人那不起訴的人數"},{"start":3967.334,"end":3980.279,"text":"將近八成以上所以這樣的情形會不會讓我們覺得說就是讓人家覺得是不是執政黨藉由這個反滲透法在選舉期間大幅的去抓人讓民眾有寒蟬效益是不是可以解釋一下"},{"start":3981.313,"end":3997.741,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢法院審判案件基本上是針對甲官起訴的案件來做公正中立的審理所以說就剛才委員垂詢的關於偵查這個數量的部分是不是還是請這個主管機關法務部來做回答那請法務部"},{"start":3999.008,"end":4020.483,"text":"那我這邊要說明一下其實這個跟我們法案滲透法的法律結構有關我們法案滲透法的條文裡面它所有的處罰條文其實裡面有很大一塊是在框公職人權暴力法跟中等人權暴力法裡面的所謂的選舉行為另外一個是有關刑責的再加重"},{"start":4021.483,"end":4037.756,"text":"這裡面就有兩條至少就有兩條是跟選舉有關那也因此為什麼在選舉期間這種案子會特別多是因為在選舉期間才會有該當於這兩條的狀況出現那另外就是在選舉期間如何是杜絕境外勢力的干涉其實是近年來選舉常常的一個重點"},{"start":4038.615,"end":4053.315,"text":"那也因此我們在巡查的時候我們其實是會加強力道是盡量杜絕這個境外借權的可能性也因此安援會比較多不過我們講到這邊大概處理上原來都有秉持公正以及這個本於證據的立場所以"},{"start":4053.955,"end":4072.755,"text":"該起訴的不該起訴的我們這邊都有做一個合理的篩選以上來跟委員報告那是不是可以請法務部再說明一下因為我們看到被偵查的人有477人可是不起訴大概是359人那是不是有一些你們可不可以解釋一下說到底為什麼會那麼多人被偵查"},{"start":4074.737,"end":4101.865,"text":"偵查的原因到底是什麼是不是說只是去大陸旅遊啊去跟大陸做交流就被偵查那是不是所以很多人說那就是選舉前一年就不要去大陸旅遊所以才不會被偵查有這樣的說法這坊間的說法謝謝委員垂詢其實針對這個狀況因為在選舉查查期間案源是多元的包括各地的有關的司法檢查機關的搜報或是來自民眾的告發跟檢舉甚至有很多匿名檢舉的狀況"},{"start":4103.086,"end":4120.206,"text":"那以檢查機關這邊來講有案子來的話我們就會收辦那收辦之後我們會依法來偵辦那不過因為反正立法結構裡面大概都會有一個客觀的構成要件是必須是有收境外敵對勢力的一個資助或是委託等等"},{"start":4120.786,"end":4136.864,"text":"所以在這段期間如果是跟中國大陸那邊有任何的交涉往來其實會有一個基本的一個嫌疑在但是這樣的嫌疑並不導致會引致後續的強力的偵辦作為或是起訴那只是一個辦案上面的一個方向"},{"start":4137.685,"end":4159.614,"text":"那其實這個狀況到底也不是針對所謂的到大陸旅遊就一定會變成反滲透法的偵辦的當然課題不是這樣而是說在選舉查查期間事實上其實包括在國內旅遊也有可能會被標定為這是不是有招待旅遊是違反選罷法裡面相關的行為所以檢察官的偵辦方向都不會單獨是針對說因為"},{"start":4161.375,"end":4188.007,"text":"我們的國人有跟中國大陸方有做交流就當然設定他是我們的偵辦對象這個倒是因為是法條的結構跟選舉查查案件的本質實案好 謝謝那最後我還是要想要拜託政府機關內部還是要把這個相關核心遭滲透的這個問題來解決那外部的部分也希望避免這個司法浪費那好好來保護人民這個民主的權利以上 謝謝"},{"start":4192.412,"end":4198.738,"text":"謝謝 感謝張志倫委員質詢 請張宏祿委員質詢我先請陸委會梁副主委跟內政部常次梁副主委跟內政部常次"},{"start":4222.655,"end":4241.176,"text":"委員好其實我們今天在說這個反滲透滲透這兩個字其實是不是就是有點慢慢來沒有一次把你到位的感覺我個人是這樣子認為"},{"start":4243.597,"end":4265.525,"text":"這個他就是慢慢來然後他到時候造成原因有很多種可能增加你的恐懼可能增加你對政府的不信任我認為滲透就不是一次大規模慢慢來所以這種事情你要去防範你要去做有這麼簡單嗎我想請問兩位"},{"start":4271.484,"end":4284.191,"text":"委員說得很正確其實我們的反滲透法它當初是根據譬如說澳洲它有防境外勢力影響法他們是用影響"},{"start":4287.168,"end":4314.558,"text":"那所謂的influence它其實就不是一個譬如說我去放個炸彈或是什麼這樣子那那個是所謂在你的思想在輿論 在資訊等等各方面的所謂的影響所以我們的反滲透法它並不是一個它跟一般的軍刑法還不太一樣它所界定的罪行又比較侷限這樣子"},{"start":4315.718,"end":4326.766,"text":"對啦 我覺得啦我們常說啦 這個工程界啊最難做的就是抓肉啦 抓肉啦那個 吳次長 你說是不是啊"},{"start":4329.263,"end":4344.635,"text":"謝謝委員指教工程的品質很重要你就回答我抓肉是不是大家都很困難當然很重要對嘛滲透跟抓肉我就一樣慢慢一點一滴一點一滴的來你要去找到證據你要去找到什麼其實都是很困難的但"},{"start":4346.328,"end":4365.533,"text":"我們現在已經看到了我們的敵對勢力透過不同各種管道來對台灣進行這種一點一滴一點一滴的滲透然後它降低了人民對政府的不信任然後也製造了一些恐懼"},{"start":4366.733,"end":4380.95,"text":"像他這個列台獨啊這個份子啊列到連司法界都列入了這也就是要造成台灣人民的恐懼而且剛剛大家也有在講其實啊"},{"start":4383.766,"end":4410.805,"text":"這個對台灣的選舉民主制度這個介入選舉其實是非常非常的嚴重你看他不用在選舉期間他無時無刻都可以去抹黑一個人用假訊息用什麼的那你說這個能不處理嗎如果你不處理長久以來對政府的不信任感對這一個人的不信任感就會存在的 對不對"},{"start":4414.718,"end":4437.102,"text":"那所以今天大家在討論反社透法的部分條文修正我認為樣態很多那你要特別舉出一兩樣這個好像不大對其實也是舉得出來的但我們不能夠因為這樣然後你不去處理我不知道兩位的看法"},{"start":4442.246,"end":4466.483,"text":"我覺得委員講的是非常關鍵的其實我們小時候受的教育就是要匪諜無孔不入其實現在是一樣的而且因為隨著網際網路隨著兩岸的交流的擴大人員來往的擴大其實所謂的匪諜無孔不入比我們小時候要嚴重更多"},{"start":4467.344,"end":4492.395,"text":"那所以這部法律它的目的就是要去怎麼樣去阻止這樣的這些影響去抓漏但是問題是在抓漏就是說因為很多的行為它必須要去能夠抓得到說這個行為跟對方的授意是有關係的所以現在的這個不管調查單位還是這個檢查或是法院"},{"start":4493.115,"end":4507.694,"text":"在這個部分他遇到都是遇到很這些困難取證上的困難但是不能夠說因為有困難所以就不做這是不行的 是我只單純 我請教兩位"},{"start":4508.795,"end":4524.542,"text":"有人在說比如說現在有一些宮廟會去中國進香那你如果單純進香你自己出錢你單純進香去到那邊有人去跟你講一些什麼話什麼你回來你沒有做這些事情你會不會有這些問題"},{"start":4526.707,"end":4554.886,"text":"如果你是單純跟著人家在找你去賺一個賺一個說不用錢 去賺錢我的前提是出錢的喔 自己出錢的喔自己出錢的絕對不會有事不會有事嗎自己出錢的絕對不會有事不會有事嘛那我們現在比較特定的就是說人家在找人家說不用錢不用錢把你交抬譬如說10天8天但是不用錢或者是說你只要出機票錢但是到當地時數"},{"start":4556.067,"end":4578.647,"text":"全免那這種就一定是有人在出因為天下沒有白吃的午餐一定有人出錢這個出錢的人是誰而已對嘛 我的意思就是說就要很清楚的讓民眾知道就不會有大家的疑慮你如果是自己出錢的不會有問題你明知是備受招待的去到那邊人家"},{"start":4580.548,"end":4592.392,"text":"在招待的場所裡面跟你講怎麼樣什麼台灣不好什麼你回來又替他宣傳這當然有可能你就會誤觸法令這個吳次長是不是謝謝委員指教我想這個剛好宗教是歸內政部"},{"start":4597.318,"end":4612.3,"text":"我們對於台灣的一些宗教團體其實負入的話我們都會提醒他就是說人家要救你去 要替你出錢結果他的目的是什麼還是自己要小心那我們也希望宗教應該是自由但不是漫無目就是說"},{"start":4613.887,"end":4637.208,"text":"中了人家的招應該這樣講那我再請教內政部剛剛也有委員說如果這樣子接受是不是選前就不要去哪裡我想請問一下不管是在如果在選舉期間你接受任何的這種招待除了違反反滲透法之外你還沒有違反選罷法"},{"start":4639.511,"end":4658.925,"text":"我想公職人員選罷法規定選舉期間的時間其實應該要避免借選然後也避免受到對岸的一個干擾不是 只要是你選舉期間不管在國內旅遊或是出國旅遊只要你付了很少的錢"},{"start":4660.446,"end":4683.993,"text":"有對價關係是不是就違反選罷法都有對嘛而且應該不只選舉期間吧只要他有預備犯他只要做這些應該都要受到只要影響到選舉結果的行為都要對嘛所以這是不是兩件事情兩件有關聯的事情你本來就違反選罷法了"},{"start":4685.831,"end":4714.822,"text":"對不對 所以跟這個反滲透法你去中國地方或什麼我覺得是兩件事情吧兩件獨立的事情但是又是有關聯兩件獨立的有關聯那你就一次觸犯兩個法啦 對不對是啊是嘛 所以我覺得啦有很多樣態大家都可以討論的啦那我覺得大家好好來討論啦這個應該要把台灣的安全漏洞給補齊我認為才是重要的"},{"start":4715.882,"end":4742.647,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張鴻路委員接受我們現在徐宇臻委員質詢謝謝主席我們請內政部吳次長跟法務部謝參使"},{"start":4744.69,"end":4748.616,"text":"保護部參事擔任政部副市長市長好"},{"start":4753.79,"end":4776.099,"text":"市長其實從反滲透法立法以來在適用對象跟構成要件的明確性上本來就有很多討論的空間那這次委員提出的修法方向無論是涉及你參選人的定義跟範圍還有試圖將錯假訊息與證券交易相關法規的連結或是針對政黨解散的程序的一個設計行政部門"},{"start":4777.159,"end":4797.159,"text":"都提出了可能會違反刑罰明確性跟罪行相當性或與現行法規跌床駕屋的疑慮所以本席今天針對部會報告中所點出的具體的法理爭議請兩位能夠秉持專業向國人清楚地說明這些說法的方向是否適當"},{"start":4798.3,"end":4824.593,"text":"首先請教這有關委員提案建議將女參選人納入反滲透法第四條的適用對象但是我注意到法務部在書面的報告中已經明確的指出參選與否在正式登記前屬於浮動的一個狀態目前對於女參選人的表態意願並不存在任何可供客觀判斷的法律標準而內政部也坦言反滲透法中的現行條文對於女參選人並無明確的規定"},{"start":4828.155,"end":4854.01,"text":"所以刑法與準刑法規範一向強調罪行法定原則與法律明確性的原則所以如果法律連你參選人自何時起算認定標準為何都無法的清楚的界定那請問一般的人民如何預見自己的行為是否違法而行政跟司法機關又將依據什麼樣的標準執法與裁量呢請回答好 謝謝委員我想"},{"start":4855.058,"end":4878.698,"text":"在這一次的一個修正的內容部分對於你參選人的部分他是並沒有很明確不過當然參考包括政治先進法其實裡面都有一些可以做公參考那我是覺得這個可以讓各個委員來做個討論如果把它定義的明確當然是可以用對就是我剛講的其實就可能很多法規是疊窗家屋既然在政治先進法那邊已經有確認了為什麼在這個"},{"start":4881.156,"end":4894.138,"text":"反滲透法又再加入進去那請問一下謝參事您的意見謝謝委員垂詢基本上因為這部草案裡面新增的所謂的女參選人的部分"},{"start":4894.551,"end":4924.092,"text":"他其實比較大的會引致的疑慮是他沒有做女參選人的定義那女參選人這四個字其實在我國我所找到至少有三個地方有一個是剛剛無上其道的政治獻金法不過政治獻金法它的女參選人定義是專門for這個就是為了政治獻金的收受而規定的所以未必能夠完全套用但在這邊並沒有針對這樣子的另外還有兩個地方一個是在公職人員選舉罷免法裡面其實自己也有這樣的字眼然後他在立法理由裡面有做女參選人有做"},{"start":4924.692,"end":4951.08,"text":"立法的說明放在旅遊欄裡面那最後一個是在廣電廣電法的實行細則我想其實很多地方都有定義我現在要表達就是說其實人民對於這樣子沒有確定性的定義來說的話他事實上可能不曉得自己什麼時候可能誤觸法律誤觸反滲透法所以在沒有明確的規定之前其實也很容易製造寒蟬效應那另外呢我們也可以看到就是說在我們的這個"},{"start":4954.437,"end":4966.145,"text":"有關這個委員提案增訂第八條的規定政黨若與境外敵對勢力合作為滲透行為主管機關應申請憲法法庭解散但是內政部的報告已經都講了"},{"start":4966.676,"end":4992.717,"text":"政黨法第26條早已經就規定了所以呢主管機關本來就可以檢據事證申請解散在政黨法就有了那謝三世現行的法規都已經完備了那為什麼還要增訂一條重複的規定而且法務部也點出一個關鍵現在的現行法是主管機關得申請而提案版本卻改成應申請這是否會剝奪行政機關依法裁量的一個空間"},{"start":4993.557,"end":5019.26,"text":"這個空間那這樣跌床架屋的修法在法制上有必要嗎是謝謝主席的垂詢我先補充剛剛的有關你參選人的定義雖然沒有但是是可以在大院審查的時候事實上是可以在裡面增訂明確的定義就有可能會符合明確性原則我先補充說明另外就剛剛委員垂詢的有關草案第8條增訂有關申請憲法法庭宣告政黨解散的判決的部分"},{"start":5019.673,"end":5033.426,"text":"因為在我國的憲法徵修條文以及我們的政黨法乃至於我們的憲法訴訟法其實都有就政黨宣告解散的相關的程序跟要件做規定對 所以這樣子是不是有一個跌床駕屋的修法你政黨法就已經規範了"},{"start":5034.867,"end":5052.285,"text":"是應該是說這些東西已經有明確的規範然後這次的定義當然我在猜想委員或許是提案委員或許是認為這件事情很重要有必要再與重申不過對於重申規定我們都還是會見情說其實包括這一次的修法我看很多委員還有提案所謂的灰色地帶行為人"},{"start":5053.226,"end":5079.508,"text":"還有有關這個相關的各種法律事實上我們看到不管是內政部或者是法務部對於很多的提案都有諸多保留的意見所以我認為行政院其實應該要負起責任就是提出院版如果行政院認為有需要的話這樣才不會讓法治混亂因為像剛剛提到有針對很多不同的法會有相關的抵觸那鑑於這樣的部分的話我們覺得在這個行政院提出院版之後呢也應該要召開公聽會然後廣邀"},{"start":5081.93,"end":5095.657,"text":"我們的學者專家大家一起共同來討論匯集更多的意見以求周延那另外根據法務部的統計在114年到114年涉嫌違反還有反滲透法的共有583件從111年的"},{"start":5099.7,"end":5119.461,"text":"分別起訴4人、18人、97人跟8人目前判決有罪確定的有5人無罪的有7人其中112年平均的判決刑度是3個月114年平均判決是6個月所以換言之超過八成以上的漢奸最終都沒有被起訴定罪率更不到"},{"start":5120.021,"end":5139.465,"text":"低到不到1%那在這樣的低起訴率跟這個定罪率之下請法務部說明這500多位在選舉前夕被約談被搜索甚至被媒體公開貼上共諜滲透著標籤的這些基層的這些民眾他的程序正義跟名譽授權的問題請問要怎麼樣子來"},{"start":5142.365,"end":5170.784,"text":"他們要怎麼來彌補是 謝謝委員垂詢不過我這邊先跟委員報告就是說檢押機關其實沒有拒絕收案的權利在選舉期間其實各個司法警察機關所提報乃至於民眾所檢舉所告發的案子我們這邊必須要依法偵辦但所謂的偵辦並不當然說每一件都會搜索每一件都會約談其實是看個案的證據狀況以及它必要性到哪邊去其實在這樣子的最後的結果剛剛我提到這樣其實已經明確的顯示出"},{"start":5171.204,"end":5187.67,"text":"就是你們查的很多 500多件成案的少 定罪的更少所以這是不是已經造成就是爛數還有變相的寒蟬效應的結果而且會讓人民心生畏懼剛剛一直有人提到說會有共諜 會有匪諜可是事實上現在我們看到的"},{"start":5188.01,"end":5210.716,"text":"共諜匪諜都在執政黨的不管是總統府不管是國安局不管是這個外交部因為執政才有機密可能洩露嘛那你在這個在野黨哪有辦法去洩露機密哪有辦法去做這樣的事情所以針對這個部分我覺得針對反滲透法我覺得還要充分的討論因為不要製造人民的這個寒蟬效應"},{"start":5211.736,"end":5235.934,"text":"我只是去大陸旅遊可是我現在要非常擔心我回來會不會違反反滲透法這是一般人民的心聲我們也接到很多上的投訴因為我們也沒辦法去告訴他們對 你這樣去不會違反反滲透法因為確實很多不明確而且沒有辦法明確界定的一個刑責所以在這邊也要請我不管是內政部或法務部在這個部分我們在針對這樣的一個修法應該更為嚴謹 謝謝"},{"start":5243.565,"end":5249.711,"text":"謝謝我們感謝徐毅臻這席我們請黃絕委員質詢好謝謝主席我們先請法務部法務部參事委員好"},{"start":5268.649,"end":5295.197,"text":"好 參事好 剛剛其實很多委員都有提到說反滲透法上路到現在六年確實面臨到高起訴低定罪這樣的狀況那我在這邊想要請教的是就是這麼多高比例是無罪的那你認為現在是不是法律上要如何跟上這個實務上的這個落差首先先跟委員報告應該是我們的起訴率也算低啦我們是低起訴率"},{"start":5296.553,"end":5319.243,"text":"因為案子進來我還會篩選只是篩選之後送到法院這邊來審理的案件確實有一些是無罪案件我們也會檢討不過蜥蜴它的內容大概會有幾個原因第一個有一個原因是因為證據蒐集不易的問題因為這些反滲透法的案子一個是牽涉到你跟對岸所謂的敵對境外敵對勢力之間是不是有所謂的資助或是委託這些關係"},{"start":5320.143,"end":5337.274,"text":"那這個證據有時候存在於海外或是不是那麼曖昧是曖昧不明的不是那麼的清晰在證據證明上有一個斷點另外就是這種起訴的反送中法案件很多都是綁公職人員選舉罷免法的會選行為那會選行為本身證明的門檻就很高對於投票行為投票意向"},{"start":5337.894,"end":5350.025,"text":"跟這個所收受的代價之間的對價關係事實上本來就是實務上比較難證明也比較容易被拆解的一個點這是一種方向就是出於證據跟法律的構成要件本來就不容易證明"},{"start":5350.526,"end":5371.267,"text":"第二個是確實有部分我們發現確實是因為在南部我們看到案例是因為法規他明定的必須是在參選之後的參選人那你參選人的部分確實有部分是判決是以此為理由認為說因為當時的階段只有你參選人而不是參選人所以因此"},{"start":5372.009,"end":5390.827,"text":"構成壓界不該當而判決無罪的狀況大概出分大概有這樣的原因存在好 謝謝參事的說明所以其實在我的提案裡面特別把擬參選人也放進去那剛剛其實我有委員也有提到說認為擬參選人的定義不明那我在這邊請教一下參事請問在政治獻金法裡面是不是針對擬參選人有一個定義"},{"start":5394.225,"end":5417.956,"text":"這邊跟委員報告剛剛有先初步說明在我國法治上至少有三個地方對擬殘血人的定義一個是剛剛委員所提到的政治獻金法另外一個是在公職人選舉罷免法相關的立法的理由裡面說明裡面有提到第三個就是衛星廣電法實行細則裡面也有規定有所謂的擬殘血人目前的狀況是因為這三種定義都不太一樣"},{"start":5418.986,"end":5440.044,"text":"那我想各自有各自的立法目的那如果今天如果要在反滲透法裡面去把這個階段擴張到擬參選人這邊的話我們這邊的建議是如果沒有定義的話它會有模糊不清的問題所以如何把它正確的做一個definition把它框起來符合最新法律原則我想是之後建請大院要審議的一個重點"},{"start":5441.803,"end":5456.437,"text":"好 謝謝參事的說明所以在這邊我要強調的是其實現在反滲透法確實我們應該要再精進那才不會說目前這樣子定罪率很低但其實滲透的行為一直都在那再來我們請陸委會副主委"},{"start":5466.374,"end":5490.853,"text":"是 委員好好 副主委好其實我認為反滲透法目前的問題是法律的漏洞非常大才會讓境外的敵對勢力就像剛剛副主委講的他們可以不斷地找漏洞不斷地找我們法律上可以鑽的地方那變成說他們可以明目張膽地進行滲透他只要知道我們的定義明確之後他就找這一些尚未定義的地方進行相關的滲透"},{"start":5492.774,"end":5509.089,"text":"那滲透的定義其實就是不斷的找你沒有規範到的地方嘛所以其實真的無孔不入那這就是我們擔心的地方也認為說不能因為這樣就束手無策所以我們必須要不斷的精進再精進那我在這邊請教副主委三個"},{"start":5510.11,"end":5524.321,"text":"三件事情喔因為其實目前看到幾個判例啊我看到的判決書法院有幾個案例被說無罪的第一個他們說這個很多接受招待旅遊的團費是因為受到一些促銷啊時速等級的影響所以沒有一定的市價標準所以就算"},{"start":5528.684,"end":5550.251,"text":"中國這邊有落地的招待但是如果團員認為自己付的機票跟行政費是自費旅遊的話那他就不算是這個統戰所以就沒有被放在這個反滲透法定義裡面的這個招待的行為裡面那第二個他們是說法院的理由是說"},{"start":5550.871,"end":5564.42,"text":"因為兩岸常常這種村里長的參法行之有年了所以並不是為了選舉才設的這種交流所以也被定無罪那第三種理由法院是說因為中方的這種官員在參會上說兩岸一家親"},{"start":5567.082,"end":5595.736,"text":"他只是閒聊只是場面話只是社交禮儀所以這個對團員來說也並不構成反滲透法的理由那請問這三以上三種這種法院的見解我們陸委會認同嗎從我們陸委會的立場就是反滲透法執行的越徹底有效越好但是我們現在碰到的問題就是他最後都是要到法院判決"},{"start":5596.775,"end":5624.889,"text":"那現在所有每一個地方的法官他對於證據法則的採納的方式他不一定是一樣的或者是說他是用很嚴格的罪行法定主義的採納方式那所以他就變成是很多我們看起來在社會通念上面可能就是有問題的但是他就會變成沒有問題"},{"start":5625.836,"end":5652.463,"text":"那所以為什麼我有看到陳冠廷委員他有提出那個國安法國安專庭的這個概念也就是說我們是不是有可能就是法院的部分它特別是它特別針對國安案件它的刑事訴訟的規定或是證據採納的這個方式和一般的刑事案件是不是應該要有一所不同或者是說它要有一個特殊的進行方式"},{"start":5654.944,"end":5678.195,"text":"到目前我們國家對於國安案件其實是按照一般的刑事訴訟法在處理的所以往往調查局的或是國安局的他們花了很大的力氣到最後到法院就變成是無疾而終所以委員剛剛所講的這些案例我們都很清楚"},{"start":5679.395,"end":5704.545,"text":"那這些案例呢我認為是最後要回到法院那這個我們在反申訴法或是國安法裡面不管我們怎麼實體法裡面我們不管怎麼規定你最後都是要都是變成是法官在判決的時候他會他們按照他們自己的認定方式去處理所以我覺得可能陳冠廷委員的那個提案我們可以仔細考慮"},{"start":5705.765,"end":5728.144,"text":"好謝謝副主委說明我也認為說目前的司法見解跟實務上的落差非常大那為了避免跟現實脫節我也認為接下來這些構成要件必須要精進第一個也不會造成民眾說不小心誤觸法網第二個也讓我們可以更明確的在法律上可以去定罪那最後我要建議一下我還是認為目前最好的方式是揭露"},{"start":5728.624,"end":5754.891,"text":"包括揭露這些金流包括接受這些代理人的行為模式包括接受這些代理人的身份所以揭露是第一步所以我還是希望接下來有機會的話我們陸委會可以跟各部會大家來討論一下是不是應該進行代理人法相關的討論或者是說這些身份上的揭露金流上的揭露是不是應該進一步的規範"},{"start":5755.851,"end":5781.461,"text":"是 謝謝委員的這個指教那這關於反社同法因為這部法律它的主管單位是行政院是行政院所以我們各個部會其實到目前為止並沒有一個提出質疑的那如果相信經過立法院的討論之後我們帶回去我們也許會提出一些這個自己的方案出來好 謝謝"},{"start":5785.893,"end":5813.998,"text":"謝謝黃婕委員接下來我們請王美惠召委主席我們這裡內政常事跟中選會跟我們大陸委員會兩副主委"},{"start":5816.039,"end":5822.546,"text":"在這裡我先跟你們探討一下我們自國委裁判的時候我們兩副組委在記者會的時候有講到一句話"},{"start":5830.438,"end":5838.1,"text":"強行中國會介入我們10億的選舉會更加嚴重我要跟副主委說這不是強行而已強行這兩年可能要結束了這是每一次選舉的時候中國一定會介入的在這個規定當中說實在"},{"start":5858.427,"end":5861.633,"text":"我們不要說沒良心的話啦 大家的選舉也這樣總統選舉也這樣 立委選舉也這樣 官司長選舉也是這樣"},{"start":5869.448,"end":5872.191,"text":"這都是越來越糟糕了沒有今天一個反滲透法有的人說這又修法沒幾年 又一百公九年 修了到現在也六年了還要修什麼 因為時空背景不一樣 時代也不一樣"},{"start":5889.967,"end":5891.409,"text":"還對中華民國的台灣的大壓尤其選舉的時候那種概念是非常嚴重"},{"start":5903.9,"end":5906.063,"text":"為什麼今天我會講到這氣氛因為這個選舉如果有阿強、謝路基、賴主理的位、好人齋、整條北省的學務位都沒有辦法出頭去"},{"start":5921.144,"end":5926.446,"text":"主要你可以聽阿強的話聽阿強要什麼給他什麼他還可以來破壞台灣民主自由國家的選舉啦在這個過程當中我是怎麼會說叫中選會開因為大家這次我們的想法就是說"},{"start":5946.328,"end":5972.129,"text":"我們如果去選委員會那裡去那叫做好選人現在我們的爭議就是以候選人在這個規定當中我相信很多所在包括選舉的包括管議員、市議員現在都已經在做完了"},{"start":5976.345,"end":5981.749,"text":"總選會你們知道嗎?副主委你們知道嗎?現在到目前為止是大家都在做了這要怎麼去認定?他現在的活動,他現在的錢你們要怎麼去認定?要怎麼認定?這個好選人,你們要怎麼認定?萬一他說,哇,事態性嚴重啊這樣他不敢去總選會定期,也有的"},{"start":6007.204,"end":6020.473,"text":"那有的你若不參與,有這個犯案在他那時,他是越做越糗來,總學會你回答我們是說這樣的事,你要怎麼去拿這兩個的問題出來,來不要說"},{"start":6029.485,"end":6056.02,"text":"公職選罷法就候選人他並沒有這個定義性的一個規定但是公職選罷法就競選活動的規制他有規定幾個這個期間一個比如說選舉公告發布後比如說就民調的規制或是說這個選務人員在選舉公告發布後不能從事一些違反選務中立的一些情形有一些有的是那個"},{"start":6057.375,"end":6077.542,"text":"競選活動期間就是投票日前10日那從這樣子的規定的一個期間然後來就這個個案的一個事實來認定他的行為是不是有違規說實在的啦 今天要九十輪輸啦沒有你啦 本席的回答這樣喔本席的大聲啦 你應當回去啦"},{"start":6079.445,"end":6081.186,"text":"我們要怎麼做才能做得更好我還不知道選舉十天前要做什麼你說的是現在的進行式我們是想說未來的選舉有幾幾年的財務要選舉要怎麼處理候選人跟候選人"},{"start":6103.786,"end":6105.327,"text":"在這個過程當中 我想問一下你可不可以同意一個馬智偉小姐馬智偉小姐她在2023年發生她如果前一陣子我們2024年來拍時間告知而已再來過一陣子"},{"start":6130.134,"end":6134.536,"text":"我們跟他 因為我們有掌握他拿到阿公的錢在這個過程 我就是說 你要怎麼去認定我還不知道選舉10天前 不可以做選舉要做什麼這也就是說 三位你們也知道現在是要怎麼 臨近議訪議會今年11月2月要怎麼處理還要緊"},{"start":6158.889,"end":6163.192,"text":"你認為 大家也一樣跟候選人的時候 選舉之後要乖乖跟不選舉的時候來聽阿強的聽阿強的字給我們這是嚴重啦包委員 這個可能跟這個有意參選的這個候選人他可能有一些是涉及反滲透法的形式責任的規定那這個剛剛就是"},{"start":6188.495,"end":6198.575,"text":"法務部可能警察官的一個權責那有些可能是賄選或是等等那有一些如果是涉及行政違規的部分那這是選務機關的一個權責"},{"start":6200.069,"end":6206.232,"text":"所以在這裡 我知道因為我們每一行有每一行他們的責任在哪裡這就是你們的政府委員會的時候也要去注意這個不是你如果我本身回答說港澳電機要十天你的未來你自己也要做得好對不對大家一分錢收出來是每一單位都可以啦 這些的問題犯罪的問題來講解啦"},{"start":6230.185,"end":6238.891,"text":"不然大家在這裡開這要做什麼反滲透法對中華民國的台灣是非常重要的不是要懲罰什麼人的自由啦在台中我告訴你在台灣這件事我們大家都看得一清二楚這是會害台灣的"},{"start":6253.206,"end":6260.609,"text":"在這裏面本身要跟我們內政副市長說到我們有款滲透法破壞社會秩序的範圍當中有的是黑客 有的是什麼來 我們司法部來司法部主席拜託給我一點時間 抱歉"},{"start":6284.402,"end":6298.03,"text":"來 蘇阿布 本席要跟你說因為大家的時間都有一點本席要說像現在選舉如果在網路在那裡說的有的沒的大家的風態我們做人中的跟之前的政府都不一樣跟人不一樣這要怎麼處理 蘇阿布"},{"start":6313.214,"end":6326.69,"text":"是副處長嗎來請副處長回應主席說明這個如果是在相關言論我們在個別的法規都有相關法規處理那抒發部會在技術的部分協助各個部會處理這樣的問題來 本席的來賓"},{"start":6331.684,"end":6343.869,"text":"他今年會在外面選舉那有人在網路說跟這個就等久以來就都在報廣場還要選什麼議員 要選什麼管理長還在網路這樣跑的時候你要如何去做來來 蘇阿布要怎麼去擋路來要怎麼去處理 要怎麼去訂車來"},{"start":6359.813,"end":6375.138,"text":"報告員這個部分我們可能會跟相關選舉事務負責的單位共同來研究他來研究要研究多久人家研究之後有一個好的人才我研究之後有一個好的人才就算了這個就好了啦所以我們要時間"},{"start":6380.708,"end":6390.15,"text":"不是說你又有事情要來簽名簽名才一月二月過那個年齡就算了啦但你後天的時候是要你一月二月申那都不好啦報告委員這個網路的部分我們一直都有在跟各個部會進行那這部分面臨接下來沒有啦 進行都沒有實際去做沒有時間觀念去查好了啦"},{"start":6411.325,"end":6415.646,"text":"到目前為止 從安委開始選擇就在那裡那裡那裡那裡所以這個很快要處理 要研議 研究的時間"},{"start":6432.113,"end":6446.605,"text":"拜託一禮拜的時間給我再來我問我們內政部部長在這兩天如果對我們中華民國有損害他的組織政黨在當局以來都是替阿強阿講話和打壓中華民國的台灣到目前為止你們內政部"},{"start":6459.662,"end":6485.441,"text":"有提出再一檔嗎我想謝謝委員的指教我想那個有關目前政黨裡面大概有一個統促黨到現在目前為止你怎麼處理跟委員報告統促黨因為我們的審議委員會過了之後就是要送憲法法庭憲法法庭現在要怎麼處理憲法法庭目前委員的人數也不太夠"},{"start":6486.426,"end":6488.187,"text":"對啊 重點就是這樣啊要處理我們社會法庭 我們庭的跟這個國家 這個立委是要做什麼"},{"start":6497.18,"end":6505.504,"text":"該做的 該派人的要處理就處理你什麼理念都沒關係 為了中華民國 如果不準 一定不能這樣嘛所以我們要去克服 可是你剛才說的明明知道他有罪 明明知道他要解散了 但是我們沒辦法解散"},{"start":6520.751,"end":6527.782,"text":"因為社會法庭都要動筆是不是這樣來是啦 跟你們怎麼做跟委員報告 我想當然那個只要是違反政黨法相當規定"},{"start":6534.042,"end":6543.507,"text":"那照程序我們會先召開審議會我知道啦 召開審議會後就是送憲法法庭啦憲法法庭要受理跟審議大概是這樣那現在就是我們要點啊點我們要等 問啊問就是沒辦法繼續讓他們亂是不是這樣不然你還有什麼辦法可以處理的"},{"start":6560.407,"end":6572.611,"text":"報告委員 我也只能尊重憲法法庭的運作啦謝謝 很無奈 無奈 無奈謝謝 謝謝我們也會招委 謝謝感謝 感謝李博弈委員我們這裡李博弈委員質詢"},{"start":6590.762,"end":6595.334,"text":"謝謝 我有請入委會梁副主委請梁副主委"},{"start":6602.45,"end":6621.781,"text":"謝謝副主委我們上個禮拜一在這邊審國安法同步我們在審國安法的同步我有問你那你有掌握到相關的訊息非常及時的就是我們在審國安法那國台辦就片面宣布制裁劉世邦部長跟鄭英耀部長但是少了少講了一個檢察官"},{"start":6623.257,"end":6634.604,"text":"那中國在處理包含片面的宣布直接說這是台獨頑固分子之外就會入罪於他們的反分裂法"},{"start":6635.612,"end":6658.94,"text":"那再來指名我們的辦國安的檢察官這個也要直接入罪他們的成都還是可能也是反分裂跟成都嗎那再者今天我們在審的這個反滲透法其實台灣的民主就是我們是靠選舉"},{"start":6661.36,"end":6685.152,"text":"各政黨有推出候選人的政黨包含執政黨或者是大小在野黨也好或者是有其他理念的政黨也好有一個政黨在境外最關心我們的選舉的其實無非就是共產黨共產黨的借選它其實根本就已經"},{"start":6686.546,"end":6714.824,"text":"不是自己跳出來候選人沒有辦法自己跳出來當候選人而已他透過各種的方式來想要意圖影響台灣的選舉所以我們今天包含我提出來的這個第4條第5條第6條第11條等等的我們都希望降低我們隔壁的惡鄰居想要介入我們選舉的各種可能性"},{"start":6715.748,"end":6742.69,"text":"那我覺得一個法條我想要放一個例子進來在馬英九時期的陸委會副主委張顯耀副主委當時在2015年的時候是被國民是被當時的政府以外患罪去辦他對不對那當然沒有辦成嘛因為他很多市政剛剛有講過那可能都在境外"},{"start":6743.649,"end":6768.834,"text":"但是他在2025年的時候被起訴用反滲透法這個法律重不重要 重要這部反滲透法他在2025年的時候把前陸委會主委但是也是現任中國國民黨智庫執行長張顯耀起訴了起訴的內容有什麼第一個他寫報告去給國台辦說他會勸國台明簽和平協議"},{"start":6774.412,"end":6796.474,"text":"第二個他有錄音檔為證第三個他發布了很多的假民調都是郭台銘會領先侯友宜而且他明明知道侯友宜已經被中國國民黨提名了那他還意圖用這個假民調來換掉侯友宜嗎那他背後是誰反滲透法是不是就要處理這件事情是"},{"start":6798.081,"end":6825.106,"text":"如果沒有反滲透法的話這個怎麼處理當作一個政黨在借選嗎當作一個共產黨公然的在幫郭台銘服選嗎如果沒有反滲透法的話張顯耀先生應該不會被偵辦因為他的行為就變成是說他跟國台辦在討論哪一個人適合來選台灣的總統而已就這樣所以反滲透法的必要就是說我們對於這類企圖"},{"start":6827.566,"end":6855.572,"text":"跟中共有關係的人來介入台灣選舉的時候我們至少有可以追溯的一個法律但是至於最後能不能具體的定罪能不能具體的定罪那個還是要看法院法院的怎麼怎麼判決因為我覺得這個案子這個案子我覺得有一些有一些行為是已經很清楚的行為在起訴書裡面看得到行為是很清楚的可以看到這個人他到底在做什麼到底"},{"start":6856.252,"end":6871.538,"text":"民眾在電視上看到誰要配誰 誰要配誰的時候原來是背後有北京有國台辦在這邊下這些指示你沒有這些偵辦你也看不到國台辦這些指示你以為只是臆測最後還有一點其實我們在第4條裡面提出來的這個"},{"start":6880.776,"end":6893.655,"text":"增加的 修正的這些條文裡面把這個 擬參選人放進來 然後另外把政黨初選 政黨提名放進來很遺憾 還沒看到國民黨的委員可以提案 因為"},{"start":6894.54,"end":6910.293,"text":"依照如果依照國民黨黨主席在選舉的時候郝龍斌跟趙少康的指控中國借選他們應該要提出來啊所以他們應該提出來他們就是被共產黨影響到的啊副主委你又沒有什麼看法"},{"start":6911.74,"end":6931.104,"text":"關於政黨的選舉或黨主席的選舉要不要規範我們黨內是有黨內初選但是我們提的我們是沒有幫中國國民黨提說他們的黨主席選舉應該要防止中共借選應該要把它放進來才對不過以前的選罷法也沒有規範各個政黨的黨內初選後來是有擴張到規範各個政黨的黨內初選"},{"start":6937.265,"end":6964.759,"text":"所以也許反滲透法的話這個跟我們今天要講反滲透法的精神不一樣在哪裡你剛講的刑法選罷法沒有沒有我另外講我舉例刑法你說選罷法那我另外舉例刑法如果傷人他當然會受到刑法的制裁但是他如果因為他的言論被北京指示他被打了"},{"start":6965.762,"end":6988.315,"text":"我們主張這一個行為應該要加重刑責為什麼因為他被傷害不只是他的身體他還傷害到台灣的民主跟法治所以我覺得今天的反滲透法為什麼要把這些釐清重點就是在於他不只有傷害不只有恐嚇甚至他有可以叫說黑幫等等的這些行為"},{"start":6989.236,"end":7005.414,"text":"這些一定要必須要受到反滲透法的這些約束但經過調查我們最好可以掌握具體的證據那我們才可以非常明確的告訴國人我們正處於什麼樣的環境我們要注意哪些事情"},{"start":7006.078,"end":7030.86,"text":"是委員有提案而且事實上我們現在有看到一些案子他被指示來台灣所做的事情不是什麼影響選舉或是什麼他可能就是針對某一個人的言論然後他指示某一個黑幫的成員去恐嚇甚至傷人或是跟蹤他或者是潑妻或是打人類似這樣"},{"start":7031.707,"end":7048.871,"text":"那這個東西到目前我們反滲透法還沒有具體規定我有看到委員還有其他委員有提案那我覺得這個都是值得討論的對 我們主張這不只傷害個人人身它還傷到台灣的民主法制我們必須要入法 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝李博義委員質詢我們請黃建斌召委質詢"},{"start":7067.291,"end":7071.774,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我們有請法務部跟內政部請法務部內政部市長好 參事好我想今天是反滲透法修正的這個審查那本來想要保衛國家安全是一個"},{"start":7090.489,"end":7111.463,"text":"都是朝野共同的目標但是每一個法律條文都牽一把動全身我們絕對不能侵害到我們人民的基本權利那更不能成為特定政黨操作意識形態用來追查老百姓的這個武器我想看這次的反滲透法的修正有一個非常奇怪的地方就是沒有行政院的版本"},{"start":7111.943,"end":7128.628,"text":"那本期仔細看了各部會針對民進黨立委版本的修正意見其實就可以了解到說為什麼行政院沒有提出版本因為各部會都明顯知道說許多法條的修正條件跟現行的法規都有互相抵觸或重疊的疑慮尤其是我們法務部"},{"start":7129.308,"end":7156.779,"text":"都不斷的表達這個見情在左那代表對於修法存在許多不同的意見那所以如果我說萬一倉促的修法恐怕對國會很基本的權益造成非常大的傷害因此本席也認為如此知識體大的修法如果執政黨執意要修行政院應該負起責任儘快提出我們的院版那立法院才可以跟我們院版一起來並案來審查我想這是一個執政黨如果要修法應該有的基本態度也是對我們國會的一個尊重"},{"start":7157.625,"end":7184.045,"text":"那就在上個禮拜 網美會召委安排國安法的審查的時候我們當時行政院還有民進黨立委的修法版本中打算增訂這個國安法第四條之一只要政府認定網路上的內容是假消息錯誤就可以要求網路平台的業者刪文刪掉他的帳號甚至把民眾各自交出來這個完全就是侵害到民眾的網路言論自由"},{"start":7184.725,"end":7202.257,"text":"我想不只是國安法行政院之前提出這個社會秩序維護法的修正草案同樣也有嚴重侵害到人民自由的疑慮我想只要政府認定有仇恨性的言論就可以三五跟三戰號那簡單的來說這兩個修法的結果就是"},{"start":7203.786,"end":7229.36,"text":"只要政府覺得有問題甚至看得不開心就可以處罰民眾完全沒有一個明確的標準這是行政濫權那這是為什麼本席要呼籲這次反這個反滲透法的修法應該要完這個院版的這個草案因為民進黨最近提出的這個修法都存在許多重大的爭議甚至被各界質疑是要推動網路戒嚴或是要跟這個人民的這個自由權益相關的法律這要小心謹慎"},{"start":7231.121,"end":7246.457,"text":"那這個是為什麼上週我們會招委排這個玩法的修法的時候因為各界的聲音非常多所以爭議也相大我們大家達成共識就是由國民黨跟民進黨各辦一場公聽會凝聚各方的共識再來進行逐條的審議那"},{"start":7248.561,"end":7266.217,"text":"我想大家都很清楚記得說反滲透法制度法律當時在立法的時候就引起社會非常大的這個爭議因為這個有前置這個言論自由跟限縮兩岸交流的嚴重疑慮那當時因為民進黨是大多數那多數可以強行的闖關那先前也有委員提出一份法務部統計的這個數據嘛2024年大選期間"},{"start":7270.046,"end":7285.654,"text":"我們違反這個反滲透法還有選罷法高達多少人416人那結果偵辦結果是有八成不起訴跟無罪那這代表這個法律耗了相當大的這個偵查的資源那結果大多數都是沒有結果"},{"start":7286.783,"end":7310.379,"text":"這恐怕會造成國人的寒蟬效應因此這邊本席要在最後的強調法律是要確保國家安全跟社安定維護中華民國的主權及自由民主的憲政秩序我們絕對不能淪為政黨用來鬥爭還有追殺異己的武器反勝鬥法的修法絕對不能因為意識形態而衝擊到人民的基本權益"},{"start":7311.46,"end":7320.606,"text":"那如果執政黨要這麼想要推動這個法律的修法的話那請行政院盡快推出版本我想這才是負責任的態度以上謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃憲編召委質詢我們請吳啟明委員質詢"},{"start":7337.588,"end":7345.57,"text":"好 召委一位同仁請我們國安局我們的陳副處長還有我們內政部的副處長好 兩位處長針對因為網路的詐騙包含手機高度的普及今天我們修的反滲透法的部分條文的修正草案"},{"start":7363.666,"end":7393.346,"text":"那民眾大家都知道以前過去我們曾經修過但是已經時空背景都不一樣已經也過了五六年那現在是AI的時代也高科技的時代那現在的詐騙的手腕都是非常的先進你像在是Meta的詐騙在我們網路上大家都可以看得出來那未來我們對我們國家的安全性"},{"start":7394.291,"end":7415.333,"text":"我們要怎樣去做防範現在是整個防範的系統要怎樣來賀值畢竟現在在11月就大選了那地方選舉會不會又過成境外勢力的介入這是本席比較關心的那是不是請我們"},{"start":7416.946,"end":7427.637,"text":"法務部 國安局來看你們掌握到的Meta他們那個詐騙的數量有多少有沒有赫茲有沒有逐年的下降"},{"start":7429.045,"end":7446.902,"text":"是 跟委員報告針對委員所關心今年關於選舉的狀況本局會有相關的專案來因應網路上流傳這些爭議訊息因為我們比較關注爭議訊息影響國家安全的部分像我們去年2025年我們就掌握了231萬余者的爭議訊息那也有發現231萬余者的認知作戰爭議訊息那我們也掌握了4萬5千多筆的假帳號"},{"start":7454.469,"end":7481.306,"text":"那相關的狀況我們也有詢問專案機制通報相關機關來做查處那也有請相關的社群平台業者來做下架動作那委員所關心可能涉及到年底選舉的部分我們本局會持續協同各國安情報團隊來加強掌握這部分狀況來及時應處李昌鮑跟委員說明但是我們國安局我聽你所講我們就是有查獲但是你要賀紙你有沒有懲處"},{"start":7484.165,"end":7498.237,"text":"只不過是下架而已那這樣 報告員如果涉及到惡假害我們也會請我們司法檢查機關比如說調查局或刑事局來去針對這個來去做依法的追訴跟查查"},{"start":7499.844,"end":7521.296,"text":"因為我們最主要是要怎樣來嚇阻因為Meta的數量是太過驚人這對我們整個國家的安全對百姓的詐騙都是一種非常嚴重的傷害這是我們本身我們公務單位就是要積極的去嚇阻這種事情的發生"},{"start":7522.196,"end":7547.205,"text":"這是我們現在都比較積極的來做的所以今天修正法的部分條文修正案本席是非常的認同這是對我們未來整個國家的安全性我們還是要秉持的趕快去讓我們民眾的傷害降到最低這是我們應該要做的好 那我請我們內政部"},{"start":7550.263,"end":7569.673,"text":"針對我們未來的選舉這個網路的信息不正確的信息我們要怎樣來做處理好 謝謝委員的指教我想選舉期間的時候因為如果是公職人員選霸就依照公職選霸的相關規定"},{"start":7570.717,"end":7595.509,"text":"如果一旦有這種網路或者AI 聲委等等的那目前來講的話我們都是說只要是警察機關我們這邊去依照他的見識結果我們會要求業者在兩天內就要下架然後限制瀏覽跟移除那另外就是說也跟委員報告像這種的話我們不管在總統選罷法或者是公職人員選罷法其實都有談到有散播 播放"},{"start":7596.431,"end":7623.27,"text":"然後讓候選人因為譬如說身為影像等等而犯選舉誹謗那這個是照規定是七年以下的徒刑而且還可以如果是意圖盈利還可以加重其二分之一那我想在這個部分其實我們目前包括公民的素養我們這邊也都是有來透過希望由教育跟宣導來讓民眾有思辨能力那也把這個相關的法令規定都會跟大家講那我想剛談到像這種"},{"start":7626.294,"end":7634.288,"text":"選舉然後藉由網路的那這個部分其實我們警察機關就是剛剛國安局有談到我們相關的部會其實都有在共同來做一個追蹤跟處理"},{"start":7635.233,"end":7655.974,"text":"好的 因為現在已經是AI時代你早期五六年前那時候反滲透法的條文修正條文那時候AI還不是那麼盛行那現在這幾年是AI的竄起那以後我們就AI的辨識這應該是重中之重是好 謝謝"},{"start":7660.094,"end":7676.382,"text":"謝謝 感謝吳啟明委員質詢我們家羅志強委員羅志強委員不在羅志強委員不在羅志強委員不在 我們家劉喜婷委員質詢謝主席這個法務部有請請法務部參事"},{"start":7699.02,"end":7722.731,"text":"早安我們今天召委排定反滲透法的相關的詢答當然是因為很多民進黨委員有提案就是說反滲透法目前沒有辦法填補所謂的國安漏洞所以大部分提了很多不管是國安法庭的設置也好或者是加重罰則等等的一些方向希望透過修法來提高國安防護的一個等級"},{"start":7724.792,"end":7748.478,"text":"問題是這樣子的這個去年3月賴清德總統其實就召開記者會講說有所謂的五大統戰威脅還有賴17條17條因應策略其中就有國安法上禮拜討論的反滲透法兩岸人民關係條例等等的一些修正案那行政院從去年3月到今天大概8、9個月快一年了嘛快一年了10個月了"},{"start":7749.938,"end":7771.648,"text":"國安法上禮拜當然是因為有願版所以重新進行了詢答的程序那後面還要再召開所謂的公聽會那我今天看今天排反滲透法的相關的一個質詢但是看起來還是都只有民進黨委員提案的相關的一個版本而我看了一下各部會提出的這個書面報告很多對於委員提案的版本大概也都有一些不同的意見"},{"start":7772.608,"end":7781.737,"text":"說要建井再著或者是說並不一定有立法的這樣子的一個必要那我想請教一下這個行政院版會推反滲透法嗎"},{"start":7784.585,"end":7804.942,"text":"好 謝謝委員 垂詢因為反勝通法本身它是屬於行政院的法規不是法務部管的法規不過法務部身為行政團隊的議員如果行政院這邊有希望我們這邊來做協助研議或者是說我們這邊本域之選發現有什麼條件需要建議的話"},{"start":7807.604,"end":7830.399,"text":"應該會有相關啟動研議的作為但是因為目前還沒有收到行政院明確的指示所以我們目前是還沒有具體的條文出來好 這到底哪一個單位來如果要有院版的話是由哪一個單位來處理的國安局嗎 還是內政部 還是陸委會三個一起上來好了你們討論一下會不會有院版好不好我們要聽具體的答案好 副主委有請"},{"start":7839.14,"end":7865.921,"text":"我想經過今天的討論之後各位委員的所有的提案我們都會帶回去包括不管在野黨還是執政黨的立委的意見那我想執政團隊應該會有一個方案出來這樣好 內政部呢大概都一樣啦因為這個反省團內容其實很多部會啦我想這個對啊 就很多部會嘛當然如果願有指示我們都會來配合好 來 國安局"},{"start":7867.738,"end":7893.793,"text":"發委員如果有需要本局提供相關資源或意見我們也會請你協助好 謝謝問題就是這樣這些法案其實在我印象中第一會期就已經進來了也就是說各委員的民進黨委員提案的版本就已經進來了那其實去年3月總統開記者會然後一直到現在今天各單位的回答還是說如果願有指示我們來做一下調整今天會帶回去研議等等"},{"start":7894.233,"end":7918.329,"text":"那這樣其實問題就來了嘛到時候會不會今天詢答都答完了之後到時候又跑出一個願板然後大家又要重新進行程序這我們希望大家審慎一點前期的溝通既然要做總統都有指示了就仔細一點來做來副主委還有話要補充嗎就是各位委員今天講的各種意見我們都會拿回去參考所以請各位委員今天多多指教"},{"start":7919.349,"end":7933.394,"text":"就是說就內容的部分多多給我們意見好不好謝謝因為看起來默契有一點點不太好啦我提醒一下要修當然是可以要討論當然大家就健康的來討論好不好我們還針對法案的內容我們還在做一下做一些想法這個"},{"start":7935.154,"end":7954.524,"text":"因為你現在問題是這樣因為現在沒有行政院同一個版本所以每一條每一條要細問時間也不夠用啦那我就直接講這個東西過去被大家詬病的地方其實就在於就是說你很難真的去變成定罪上的困難嘛包含剛剛副主委都講說起訴但判決無罪不代表真的無罪欸這還蠻誇張的"},{"start":7956.604,"end":7972.956,"text":"我當然知道你的意思是要強調定罪上的困難但法律明確性等等相關的保障他也是要兼顧的我想大家是很清楚的那關鍵就是在說你很難證明什麼叫被滲透嘛對不對以實務上來講大家去講說比如說中國大陸啊最常被大家拿來講所謂的滲透啊"},{"start":7974.677,"end":8001.897,"text":"就是實務上 比如說中國大陸啊 透過台商啊給予政治獻金 找到政治人物就聽差辦事這就聽起來言之成理但那其實非常去脈絡化的一種說法為什麼這樣說呢因為這樣說那很多人恐怕都要被辦啊 對不對比如說這個我們有紅孩兒事件 對不對這個即便大政黨不同 講法不一樣可是有沒有在中國大陸有經商的事實恐怕是有的 對不對那這樣經商的事實有沒有成為選舉的支持"},{"start":8002.694,"end":8007.661,"text":"你很難證明有可能有有可能沒有所以到最後都鬼打架不管是哪一黨哪一派"},{"start":8008.652,"end":8032.501,"text":"就到底有滲透沒滲透通通講不清楚這也是為什麼我們今天在談反滲透法修正的時候之所以不管是國安法反滲透法良人民關係條約大家都強調明確性原則的原因就在這個地方因為你一不小心就會跨過自由的紅線嘛造成的壓迫我們如果給予行政機關太大的裁量空間對不對讓梁副主委變成法官這樣子不太行啦對不對"},{"start":8033.321,"end":8049.513,"text":"給予太大的裁量空間反而是對於司法公信力的再一次的打擊所以即便我看了一下今天大部分的修法都說我要有國安法庭我要加重罰則我要怎麼樣來做處理可是問題是都沒有觸及到這個法案核心的問題也就是你到底要怎麼去界定這件事情"},{"start":8050.333,"end":8078.112,"text":"那到了最後很有可能你修完之後還是因為無法界定而無法定罪那修了等於白修或者是說你因為界定的時候觸犯了政治的紅線他遭到很多困難這就是為什麼我今天一定要提說如果要審這個法案一定要有院版一定要一個明確的基準如果各委員有各行其事利益都良善本席願意相信這不同黨派都沒有關係但是核心的問題沒有辦法被解決也沒有統一版本來做討論的時候恐怕會有一些困難這是本席要做的第一個提醒"},{"start":8078.752,"end":8094.958,"text":"第二個是有關於這個國安法庭我想要問一下 梁副主委內政部應該可以回了但是這個法務部跟司法院好不好國安局可以回法務部跟司法院我要問一下國安法庭的部分這個是這部法案目前有的版本裡面比較敏感的地方啦"},{"start":8095.843,"end":8118.856,"text":"大家都覺得說 一樣啊這聽起來 喔對啊國安相關的案件交給國安相關素養的法官來判對 一樣言之成理 但它同樣有實務上操作的問題我想請教一下法務部跟司法院現在民進黨委員在提案說明等等都有講就是說你現在違反國安法相關法案的這個犯罪最後都輕判了事你們同意都是輕判了事這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":8123.519,"end":8143.719,"text":"謝謝委員追尋那我這邊先檢驗回來後面可能要請司法院先生補充首先就草案的第11條質疑的立法理由裡面有提到刑度的分析那這個是應該是根據本部在網路上有公開的相關的統計數據那這個當然是客觀的不過因為我這邊要補充說明的是"},{"start":8144.518,"end":8171.398,"text":"這個客觀數據的解讀你必須要放在它是一個新的法所以它起訴也都是在最近這幾年很多案子其實還沒有確定都還在路上所以裡面包括了剛剛有委員提到的桃園的某民眾被起訴的案子以及南部也有好幾件其實都是重判的刑度事實上現在是上訴在最高法院之中這邊可能就這個數據的部分"},{"start":8172.198,"end":8192.935,"text":"要補充說明 因為還沒確定 所以沒有納入統計所以其實也沒有都輕判嘛 對不對最近幾個 比如說共諜的案子 其實也都有用國安法 七年八年以上 對不對是有區分情節的嘛 好那現在民進黨委員也擔心啦 我想也是善意提醒啦就是說現在刑事法官恐怕缺乏國安相關知識"},{"start":8193.986,"end":8215.772,"text":"這樣子的一個 我姑且講提醒你們認嗎 你們覺得現在的法官司法院也好 法務部也好 從你們的角度現行的法官缺乏國安的相關知識嗎這司法院回答 法官嘛 對不對謝謝委員吹詢那辦理國安軍事案件的法官其實現在都已經有專庭或專股的辦理"},{"start":8216.479,"end":8241.47,"text":"而且每年至少從109年到去年每年都有國安研習會的專業課程的培訓甚至去年114年還一年有兩次的研習會的培訓分別是食物界跟學術界都有相關的教育課程所以法官基本上都已經具有相關的專業了而且一年至少要有12個小時的訓練課程"},{"start":8244.131,"end":8269.139,"text":"還有剛剛委員所問到是不是都有輕判本院當然就尊重法官的審判權的行使譬如說在去年114年來說地方法院反滲透法有三人都是判到超過六個月的刑度甚至高等法院有一人判到超過兩年的刑度所以未必都是所謂的輕判的狀況以上就簡單回覆委員 謝謝"},{"start":8273.96,"end":8301.452,"text":"好 所以你剛剛我簡單講就是針對國安法庭這一部分其實你們已經有專股跟專門的訓練也有在辦課程嘛 對不對是的啊所以我想如果單純只是哪怕只是題點的角度你講說缺乏國安知識的專業訓練我覺得好像對司法院也有一點不公平好 我拉回來講這就是為什麼嘛就是之所以行政院一定要有一個明確的態度的原因就在這個地方嘛很多時候認知不一樣委員會提案恐怕是這個利益良善但是實務上你在行政端其實並不見得有這樣的需要"},{"start":8301.872,"end":8318.021,"text":"那在政治上面由於國安法國安法庭可能是這部法裡面最有政治爭議的部分因為你大家想到國安法庭的時候不免就想到納粹人民法院的歷史對不對因為當初可以本來理論上應該要重判但我不可得所以我要有專門的一群人去做專門的審判"},{"start":8319.142,"end":8340.209,"text":"然後到了最後一個不小心跨過那條線他其實就變成一個濫權變成一個打壓人權跟破壞法治的這樣一個狀況本期還是要把醜話講在前頭如果行政端這邊沒有辦法統一口徑把一個明確的版本弄出來大家針對這個版本去做有效的討論的話那很有可能到最後又陷入這樣一個政治的爭議裡面我本期是認為期期以為不可啦"},{"start":8340.729,"end":8364.002,"text":"當然我們都贊同強化一些反滲透相關的一些政策也好法制面的相關一些作業也好但我們一樣這跟國安法的修正一樣謹慎謹慎再謹慎啦好不好希望行政院到底會不會有版本這個可能你們會後要提供一下說明啦要不然這個要不要審下去恐怕也是蠻麻煩的一件事情不管是對於我們來講在野黨的委員來講或者是對於召委排案來講希望你們加強一下默契好不好好謝謝委員"},{"start":8369.718,"end":8371.283,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝紐西蘭委員質詢我們要困國奮戰 謝謝"},{"start":8686.243,"end":8690.965,"text":"來 我們繼續開會 我們家生保養委員質詢謝謝主席 那我有請這個陸委會法政處處長 周處長 謝謝"},{"start":8715.957,"end":8733.68,"text":"委員好你好那今天前面我已經有做過提案說明了我這邊其實就不多說那在這個呢不過還是稍微再提一下就是說我們這個反滲透法這一次的這一個修法在六之一的部分是針對一些既有規範的這個加重然後呢"},{"start":8734.352,"end":8754.533,"text":"後面有一個這個比較特別一點就是呢這一個違反個資因為之前有一個狀況就是說有滲透來源然後他來到立法院是要蒐集我們各助理還有各辦公室的這個資料這個其實說真的你要說他是國家機密大概也很難說是公務機密大概也沒有但他畢竟對中國來講是有情報就是重要的資料"},{"start":8754.973,"end":8772.015,"text":"所以在那一個狀況之下我們的法規範是有所不足但是我接下來想要問一點就是說因為之前我們在民間推的時候最主要是在推這個代理人這個代理人法其實我覺得以名詞來講現在大家也可能不容易理解我覺得代理人法可能比較好的說法其實就是揭露"},{"start":8772.635,"end":8789.865,"text":"就是說讓大家知道這件事情那反社動法比較多是一個事後的懲處那目前來講我們兩岸條例可以看到就是說33條之一就是這一些事情涉及政治的內容非經各該主管習慣許可他不能夠做涉有政治性的內容他必須要報"},{"start":8790.72,"end":8817.679,"text":"這一個呢其實是某種程度它其實算是一個揭露事項因為它必須要經過主管機關的這一個許可但是就是說它的規範的這一個範因為它的那個範圍看起來非常的大然後它並沒有那麼的類型化所以就變成說呢如果我們要去來規範這個相關事項的時候可能會有一些不足的問題那我目前日前是有看到內政部它有特別提到就是落實這個揭露制度就是宗教團體赴中國交流資訊的這個公開專區那"},{"start":8821.002,"end":8839.441,"text":"這個他其實並沒有這個強制但是目前這樣的系統已經出來那我想問目前來講就是說去中國交流因為我們之前是在講這個立委去中國交流應該要揭露嘛那我們先不要講到層級那麼高我們就講說普通的這個宗教的交流目前呢以陸委會的角度來講這些事情揭露的這個程度如何"},{"start":8841.365,"end":8856.507,"text":"跟委員報告那目前的部分多數還是由這個主管機關內政部他透過公開的訊息他們主動來做蒐集來做揭露對如果靠當事人本身自己的這個意願的話當然不會這麼高"},{"start":8857.909,"end":8877.348,"text":"而且那個揭露的這一個內容如果說他揭露了結果跟我們後來真實的狀況是不符合的他有什麼裁罰或什麼等等之類的目前沒有目前都沒有所以就是說因為我覺得對中國來講就是說交流這件事情他可以去運用這些交流形成統戰的這個結果"},{"start":8878.749,"end":8902.184,"text":"像之前我們就常發生這種體育的交流體育的交流對國人來講聽起來很正常去打打棒球去玩玩扯鈴聽起來好像沒有什麼但是後來我們才發現後面好幾個共諜案它既然就是從比如說扯鈴的交流開始它在趁這個交流的時候去吸收我們的扯鈴的教練然後再藉由去滲透我們的軍方然後取得我們軍事的機密"},{"start":8903.365,"end":8923.998,"text":"但他從頭到尾原來在一開始在辦那一個扯鈴相關的活動的時候目標竟然就是要滲透我們的這個扯鈴教練所以就是說我們會認為是正常的交流對他來講不正常所以如果我們事先沒有辦法防範事先沒有辦法知道這些交流的內容他見了誰有沒有可能簽了什麼東西的話這個對我們來講一定會有規範不足的問題"},{"start":8926.92,"end":8941.675,"text":"所以現在能不能夠把這個揭露做得更好我覺得這是應該未來蠻重要的一個目標我們這陣子國安法其實修法已經開始慢慢在推動了那今天也有很多反滲透法的這個修法那這個修法大部分還是比如說他去參與了這個統戰的活動我們可能應該要怎麼規範"},{"start":8944.618,"end":8966.266,"text":"國安法裡面他除了發展以外他如果去參與組織的話我們應該要怎麼規範他大部分還是就是他都已經做了做完之後我們說這個不行這個要被處罰但如果能夠在他做之前我們就知道這個有風險這也是陸委會一直以來在做的事情國人賦錄的時候去警告他說你可能會有這個風險你什麼事可以做什麼事不能做"},{"start":8966.866,"end":8994.782,"text":"但我知道第一個就是我們目前的法規範不可能叫每一個人來中國然後到來跟陸委會報備這是非常困難的事情第二個就是陸委會的量能可能會不夠這可能是需要增加預算但是我們目前的這一個預算審查的方式很難讓陸委會有更多的預算來做這件事情但它還是一個大目標所以今天藉由反社交法的修法我覺得要討論這個內容我看大家意見當然可能會各自不同對於處罰的高低比例原則什麼等等之類的"},{"start":8995.342,"end":9021.881,"text":"但我想要提醒的就是這個完了以後往下一步我們應該要有更多的這個揭露制度那因此如果陸委會開始要做這些相關的要來申報然後你要檢查然後事後還要看它到底揭露的內容到底是對還是錯到底跟事實符不符合那個量能是要提高的量能如果要提高需要多少的人員然後需要多少的預算我們再往下一次下一個年度的時候希望陸委會能夠也把這件事情考慮進去是 謝謝委員"},{"start":9026.244,"end":9042.278,"text":"跟委員報告一下現在我們的特定的身份人員或公務員如果要經過聯審會的話基本上他去大陸的話我們是要審查您所提到的一些資料我們這次陸委會提的兩岸條例的修正草案裡面第九條裡面針對民選公職人員的賦錄"},{"start":9044.46,"end":9071.786,"text":"我們也訂定了公開介入的一些規定希望委員能夠支持對 沒問題這個也是我被擋了非常久的一個法案之一那我知道有一些變成是他今天要如果要報的話有一些他不是屬於剛剛要到聯審會他可能要跟原籍官但是跟原籍官那個原籍官在認定的標準是什麼這可能也很需要陸委會提供標準不然的話那個原籍官可能他完全不知道自己應該要做什麼事情那就變成說他的法律空在那邊雖然還沒過啦但是如果過的話"},{"start":9072.486,"end":9085.354,"text":"他到底要審查什麼 他要準備什麼資料這可能也是需要你們提供標準如果會來協助各機構沒問題 那就我先問到這邊 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝 我們感謝沈伯陽委員質詢我們請吳斯亞委員質詢"},{"start":9095.834,"end":9095.994,"text":"那委員好"},{"start":9112.868,"end":9138.228,"text":"來辛苦大家了這個磨高一尺道就要高一丈反共諜反滲透呢國安法案需要修好修滿下一頁而且我們的修法呢絕對不會是先求有再求好我相信內政委員會的素質應當比我們司法法制高很多我們不應當有先求有再求好的這種心態我們所有今天反滲透法所提出來的法案我們都要嚴謹的審查"},{"start":9140.038,"end":9150.532,"text":"讓國安到位那這個是我整理出來我們國安局的代表在這裡國安的刑案起訴人數其實是兩年半內標了6.5倍在2024達到最高峰"},{"start":9155.439,"end":9182.924,"text":"所以說違反的法規就有國安法反滲透法路外空軍刑法國家機密保護法國家情報工作法還有刑法的內容緩判罪2024年是182案起訴那個別類的當然就是我們今天國安法還有反滲透法是TOP國安局的代表我的數據應當是正確的這是統計於你們的官方資料在下一頁"},{"start":9183.962,"end":9203.197,"text":"而犯國安犯罪的被告的身份從傳統我們認為現職的軍警或是退伍的軍人為大宗現在也更多元化了因為中國的滲透無所不在一般人是政黨成員的幕僚台商還有幫派"},{"start":9203.977,"end":9226.544,"text":"都已經成為國安犯罪的被告身份也代表他們的犯刑被繩之以法所以我們可以看到不管是從案類的攀升兩年內來攀升2.5倍然後到犯罪被告的身份逐步的多元都告訴我們我們需要修法來回應"},{"start":9228.328,"end":9256.355,"text":"那這個會期因為我在司法法治委員會我每個月都會有共諜的專報那既然在野黨的委員這麼關心共諜的案子那我們就要回應在法治作業啊立法委員不是只排專案報告然後來這裡就責為難官員然後沒有具體的作為所以反共諜滲透就要具體的行動就是國安法案下一頁這就是我們提出來的國安法治的架構下一頁"},{"start":9257.918,"end":9282.748,"text":"今天的反滲透法全部都是民進黨委員的提案1234567899個案子藍白的委員在野黨的委員0版本就回應我剛剛說的反滲透反共諜我們就要回應在立法院的立法委員的職責就是修法或是立法下一頁"},{"start":9283.82,"end":9309.626,"text":"那非常遺憾黃國昌委員呢今天人到美國去了大搞畢業旅行去了針對重要的反滲透法的修法他沒有來其實過去他在擔任時代力量政黨立法院黨團總召的時候他是率先提案反境外敵對勢力併吞滲透法副主委您應該研讀過他過去的法案嘛對不對我有看過我有看過"},{"start":9310.802,"end":9328.405,"text":"所以他過去的方向也是我們現在要補強精進的方向不是嗎基本上非常一致但是黃國昌最會雙標跑到美國去了今天沒有來審查下一頁那我問內政部的代表"},{"start":9330.121,"end":9348.828,"text":"次長這個是這段時間我一直困擾的冒用我的信箱去威脅對於恐嚇要攻擊總統府啊松山機場101啊我已經報案了六次這是跨年這段時間連光國慶日那個時候還十幾次我都報案你們也都在偵查有沒有查出來是境外嗎還在查應該這個警察署會比較了解好趕快辦因為都是用簡體字的下一頁"},{"start":9360.063,"end":9387.342,"text":"這就是國慶日的那一波好我要用這個是說如果用言論只是在鼓吹暴力用暴力的威脅我們都要繩之以法我都需要報案那麼危及國家安全的用言論來支持武統支持中國犯台這當然也不是言論自由所允許的嘛對不對下一頁檢察總長也已經說了立法規範"},{"start":9389.119,"end":9413.561,"text":"對於對敵效忠的還有要檢討法規的灰色地帶以及言論自由非沒有底線在台設統戰的言論都將受罰如果鼓吹犯罪都要吳斯堯要一個案一個案去提告我不縱容這些暴力那當然對於要對台灣武統的這些暴力完全是零容忍的不要雙標所以我們的修法非常的一致喔夏業"},{"start":9414.639,"end":9435.247,"text":"我今天有機會在內政委員會就教於各位因為我們上週在司法法治委員會針對陸海控軍刑法24條修正的時候要加重降低罪責於法院那天我沒有機會問到梁文傑副主委我基本上都支持我們要提高不盡其責降低者的刑責這些都該做"},{"start":9436.487,"end":9450.633,"text":"那天在野黨委員有一些非常荒誕的比喻因為法條的內容是說以言論舉動文字圖畫電磁記錄科技方法或其他方式對敵人效忠的表示我們增加了這一項"},{"start":9452.392,"end":9480.226,"text":"在野黨委員一直說這非常抽象這樣子文字非常抽象會是文字獄但是如同我剛剛說的如果對於這種暴力言論攻擊公共設施都要嚴正以待去繩之以法那為什麼對於國安的相關的內容尤其降敵或者是拍影片替對方宣傳這些在野黨的委員認為可以放手呢下一頁"},{"start":9481.857,"end":9502.135,"text":"那我就教於副主委喔軍人的忠誠義務是大法官釋字430號非常清楚的闡釋而現行軍人的忠誠義務若被違反只能夠用貪污治罪條例的違背職務收賄罪來處理所以這法制要補強下一頁這就是非常有名的這個"},{"start":9504.217,"end":9527.653,"text":"陸軍的上校向德恩遭中國吸收開始收賄2019年開始而且簽署了投降承諾書這是非常具體的一點都不抽象但是我們只能用貪污治罪條例的收賄罪去起訴他下一頁而這些搭配中國來拍攝願意投降解放軍的照片的這些人也只能夠用收賄罪來起訴"},{"start":9528.994,"end":9556.072,"text":"所以說副主委你在這裡可以清楚的告訴我們雖然這不是今天在內政委員會的主題但是陸海空軍刑法也是一整包的國安法案你可不可以說明一下陸委會的主張陸委會的主張很清楚就是這些凡是這些漏洞我們都應該補起來你特別是我講更具體的像這個向德恩的案子你看到的只是表面的一個但是你每抓到一個後面就一定有一串"},{"start":9557.273,"end":9583.109,"text":"那前兩天還有南部軍團也有一個同樣的案例同樣也是被檢方起訴我想國安局在這邊很清楚就是說類似這種拍影片向中共宣誓效忠然後說一旦戰爭的時候我不抵抗甚至我要這個倒戈相向的這樣的具體的案例在軍中其實現在是一個危機"},{"start":9584.21,"end":9612.129,"text":"所以我們這個修這個刑法其實是完全是有具體對應的案件要處理的而不是隨便處理 而不是隨便修一修的這樣子好 謝謝副主委喔所以因應其實這些行為都是現在進行式就像你講抓到一個後面都是一瓦啦一粒肉贓頭後面都是幾瓦啦我們如果不趕快補強了國安法之路漏洞陸海空軍刑法"},{"start":9612.614,"end":9616.089,"text":"具體的增加降低的這些作為我認為"},{"start":9617.505,"end":9643.577,"text":"我們真的很難很難向中國這些滲透的行為來宣戰所以今天在場內政委員會有非常多的部會都是國安法案的主責的部會我們就是堅持為國家的國安我們拼上最後一塊的國安拼圖其實不是一塊好多塊的國安拼圖大家一起努力我在司法法治委員會我們在相關的法案入海扣除刑法或是未來的軍事審判的制度"},{"start":9643.897,"end":9661.72,"text":"我們也會全力的跟大家一起合作加油 辛苦了 謝謝梁文傑沒有拿水杯上台謝謝 我們感謝吳思堯委員質詢我們家高金素美委員質詢"},{"start":9669.328,"end":9675.215,"text":"謝謝召委有請陸委會副主委內政部常務次長還有數位發展部的副處長"},{"start":9677.594,"end":9704.327,"text":"在你們三位還沒有上台之前呢我要跟大家說明的一件事情也要告訴大家的是沒有人不愛這塊土地但是呢 現在有的人打著反滲透的旗號實際上是在惡足兩岸正常和平交流而我們看到的現象是只要到對岸交流就被一路追殺到司法程序結果呢 定罪率只有三成"},{"start":9705.407,"end":9723.148,"text":"最後被抓的不是有系統滲透的人而是那一兩百萬個正正當當跟對岸做經貿往來的台商動輒得救現在還打算進一步的擴大到政治追殺的範圍"},{"start":9724.75,"end":9735.845,"text":"我們看到有一些立法委員提案的方向最大的問題不是要不要防滲透而是把防滲透做成管人民"},{"start":9737,"end":9755.801,"text":"我們看到的是處罰範圍一再的擴大從候選人擴大到您參選人然後又把政府的手伸到了網路平台只要我們的政府覺得有危害國家安全的可能性就可以做行政制裁"},{"start":9757.335,"end":9770.11,"text":"我當然認同 國安是可以要強化的但是呢 絕對不能夠變成執政黨想要怎麼認定 就怎麼處置我要先請問一下 速發部的吳副處長"},{"start":9774.967,"end":9789.014,"text":"吳副處長你們要平台移除限制瀏覽然後要業者交資料究竟是哪一個機關有權決定要業者交出哪一些資料依據是什麼門檻是什麼誰核准誰負責怎麼去做請你簡單說明一下"},{"start":9795.4,"end":9812.161,"text":"跟委員報告一下現在如果平台交資料是個別的法規例如說像性侵害防治法或者是一些兒少的案件那就由衛福部的執行單位調取相關的資料或者是由警政單位依法跟平台調取相關的資料"},{"start":9812.702,"end":9840.833,"text":"那平台依法提供或者是不提供都有相對應如果不提供的話才會有相對應的好啦 你不要浪費我的時間其實你要講的就是我們其實呢 只有增訂一條同時要處理這麼多事情但是呢 蘇發布你們自己的報告你們到現在 你們還在互推剛剛你也講到 主管機關請問一下 人民是要怎麼樣依照這麼樣的一條法規來遵守呢"},{"start":9841.773,"end":9850.2,"text":"近期的小紅書被處置而社會大眾根本不知道原因是什麼這正是我們民眾現在最擔心的地方我們完全不知道標準在哪裡政府只要用一句基於國安輕輕的帶過而人民的焦慮仍然是沒有辦法解決的現在我們又有委員要提案增加所謂的灰色地帶的行為的制裁"},{"start":9868.636,"end":9896.948,"text":"陸委會你在報告中也提到尊重建立灰色地帶行為的申報機制是能夠有效補強民主防衛機制的我要請問一下梁副主委什麼叫做灰色地帶行為人具體的定義要件是什麼哪一些行為算 哪一些行為不算灰色地帶行為人就是說譬如說你在正式參選或是正式向監察院申報之前"},{"start":9897.748,"end":9923.353,"text":"那你這個在有意參選或是還在醞釀參選還是在或是在幫人家抬轎的這些人這就要到灰色地帶的行為好很好 梁副主委你說到了不只是所謂灰色地帶行為你們根本都講不清楚你們這次還要把觸角伸到您參選人您知道嗎連內政部他自己的報告都承認法案裡面根本沒有您參選人的明確定義"},{"start":9925.073,"end":9939.107,"text":"標準長什麼樣子完全說不出來請問這樣的概念是要怎麼執行報告委員您參選人其實在查會的時候就知道因為查會的時候他不會只限於說你是參選人他在查會之前參選人之前他就會查了你回去看一下內政部的報告好不好"},{"start":9950.057,"end":9976.092,"text":"我們現在看起來執政黨你們根本不是在補所謂的漏洞你們是要用更模糊的罪名要擴權然後讓檢調變成政府的打手你們隨時就可以出手抓人讓人民在法院之間疲於奔命坦白講就是要管住人民的嘴綁住人民的手逼大家閉嘴然後把整個社會推向更恐懼"},{"start":9977.333,"end":9981.814,"text":"而政府你們一再說由於所謂的境外敵對勢力散播謠言還有不實的資訊破壞了人民對政府的信任我真的不這麼認為而且絕大部分的台灣人民也不這麼認為我們看一下多年以來我們的政府從疫苗的購買口罩的危機雞蛋的危機到最近對等關稅的議題還有我們的軍購的延宕"},{"start":10004.76,"end":10005.503,"text":"甚至連我們非官的防寒衣的問題"},{"start":10009.249,"end":10031.764,"text":"人民對我們的政府早就已經出現信任危機了啦是政府你們的施政一再的錯誤讓人民再也難以相信我們的政府了而我們的政府不在人民的生活上面需要積極的回應人民的要求你們只是一昧的以所謂的國家安全做理由來限縮人民的基本權利我想民心只會離我們的執政者越來越遠的"},{"start":10037.15,"end":10039.231,"text":"人民要的就是非常的簡單我要吃得飽 我要穿得暖但是呢 執政黨你們做不到你們一再地用所謂的亡國感來轉移焦點你們只想讓人民閉嘴我們來看一下這個數據"},{"start":10053.961,"end":10069.531,"text":"2026年世界不平等報告指出了台灣最富有的10%的人口掌握了全台灣61%的財富金字塔頂端的1%的超級富豪就佔了我們台灣的27%而底層的50%的民眾我們僅僅只剩下4%的財富請問一下我們政府有真正在面對這些民生問題嗎"},{"start":10083.841,"end":10100.251,"text":"如果我們的政府把力氣都用在處理異己然後做政治清算每一次執政不力就搬出所謂的國安危機來作為掩飾最後只會讓人民更加的不安讓民主更脆弱"},{"start":10101.152,"end":10109.535,"text":"我要再說一次國安不是口號民主也不是擺在檯面上的裝飾品政府應該要做的是要守護的是全體人民的權利跟生活而不是執政的方便我覺得在場的大家我剛剛以上說的那些話請大家好好的思考而不是讓我們的政府執政不力轉移焦點謝謝"},{"start":10135.031,"end":10141.353,"text":"謝謝我們感謝高金素美委員質詢我們請李坤成委員質詢謝謝主席我們請陸委會 梁副主委梁副主委 陸委會"},{"start":10160.632,"end":10183.394,"text":"我很好副主委好這個根據我們的反滲透法的第二條這個有對於這一個境外敵對勢力滲透來源還有這一個機關的組織等等之類的都有做定義嘛對不對對那我請教一下副主委根據反滲透法的規定那國安局之前有提出一個報告利用黑道幫派地下錢莊"},{"start":10185.187,"end":10212.649,"text":"這個掩護公司公廟團體民間社團這個五大管道來滲入這個台灣那請問一下那這些是不是也是反滲透法要所規範的一個對象是 但是他可能是可能是第二層或第三層可能是層層下達指令就是滲透來源下面的還有境外敵對勢力所屬組織機構或其派遣之人這個算不算"},{"start":10215.096,"end":10226.52,"text":"我認為是算的啦但是在證明上面不太容易對 這就是問題所在我們明明知道說中共滲透的很嚴重那這個國安局的報告裡面他也說到"},{"start":10227.196,"end":10250.981,"text":"他透過這一個 國安 勤工 統戰部門透過退役軍人 現役軍人 政府機關 輕鬆組織下面的這些管道來進行滲透那我們也看到了這一個相關的報告就是說反滲透法施行到現在6年那檢查機關累計起訴的127人那判決確定有罪才5個人"},{"start":10252.011,"end":10264.519,"text":"平均的刑度只有三個月到六個月那這等於是說滲透的情況這麼嚴重那但是為什麼我們按照這個反滲透法所起訴的人會這麼少那有罪的會更少"},{"start":10268.804,"end":10287.402,"text":"應該是說他的要證明就是說剛剛有講說第二條因為你必須要證明說他的這些行為是受中共指示或是派遣之人但是往往在這個環節裡面是比較困難譬如說我舉前立委羅志明的案件好了"},{"start":10289.064,"end":10307.481,"text":"我們看到的資料是它上面確實是由對岸某一位人士指示他做某一些事情但是因為沒有辦法證明說對岸這一位某一些人士他到底是不是在中共的黨政軍職務裡面他到底是站在哪一個位置或是具體職務但是我們這邊的檢調單位也不可能發文"},{"start":10312.686,"end":10328.294,"text":"過去中共那邊說請問這個人是不是你的哪一個單位的什麼職務所以就變成說你最後沒有辦法證明那個指示的來源他的身份所以往往很多案件都是因為這樣子而無法起訴這樣所以這個我剛講說這個其實是"},{"start":10332.438,"end":10359.18,"text":"它不是實體法的問題就是說我們實體法定的不管怎麼樣在包含的再多的範圍也好或是什麼它最後會遇到這個核心的問題就是你無法起訴這樣對好 那你說不是實體法的問題但實際上法規範就遇到這些問題沒有錯好 那你剛才舉那個例子我再舉個例子好了講這個馬志威是馬志威他是這個用無黨籍身分來參選"},{"start":10360.521,"end":10379.596,"text":"那他一審的時候他只有用違反各自法他是到了二審的時候才用這個反滲透法然後判刑兩年多所以你看有這個落差他為什麼一審的時候是用違反各自法那二審的時候可以用到這個反滲透法那之間落差在哪裡這個落差就是說他必須"},{"start":10381.311,"end":10408.276,"text":"二審的時候他認定說他的這個資金來源對象確實是中共所派遣之人所贊助的資金在一審的時候法院不這麼認定一審的時候只認為說馬志文你確實有收到錢但是我沒有辦法認為我沒有辦法認定說你所收到錢的來源是中共或中共所派遣之人但是二審是這樣認定的那所以就是認定上面的問題沒有錯"},{"start":10411.357,"end":10420.133,"text":"對啊 那所以我們今天要修這個反滲透法是不是一樣也會遇到這些問題咧因為我看各個委員當然都很關心國安的問題被滲透的問題我覺得"},{"start":10424.741,"end":10440.108,"text":"各位的委員都很關心那很多意見我們也都會參考那但是最後我們還是遇到這個法院他在採取他的證據法則到底是怎麼樣就是說如果他是很嚴格的"},{"start":10443.45,"end":10466.37,"text":"譬如說要採取跟一般刑事案件的證據法則顯然現在在國與國之間的關係裡面你很多事情是沒有辦法這樣處理的我是會建議說我們的各個機關可以去參考其他國家的情報工作或是怎麼處理類似相關的法"},{"start":10467.091,"end":10485.724,"text":"那個案例那而不是說用一般的刑事刑事案件或刑事訴訟法來處理因為就會遇到說我們的這一個檢調非常努力的去查也查出一些證據出來但是到法院那邊的時候就像副主委你提到的說他們很難去證明說"},{"start":10486.383,"end":10512.101,"text":"中間的這個連結性是不是如何去證明然後這個證明的確是受過這個中共他所指示的然後這個關係變得很難去連結就變成說在法院這邊的問題他通常會通過好幾層然後中共的情治人員他也不會說我就是某某單位的他一定可能說我是某個基金會的或是某個公司的然後公司下面還有公司還有各個"},{"start":10513.522,"end":10532.515,"text":"掩護性的單位所以這個就變成造成我們這邊在查查的或是說在建立連結的時候是非常非常困難的所以就是說他只要中間有一個斷點出現了就變成說我們的法院去證明說他的確有這個連結性就會變成出現問題了沒有錯最後一個問題問你就是說在過年之後那現在這一個國民黨準備跟這個共產黨舉行這個國共論壇那陸委會這邊有沒有什麼樣的提醒"},{"start":10546.644,"end":10553.669,"text":"我們是提醒不管哪一個政黨都是中華民國的政黨不管哪一個政黨"},{"start":10554.895,"end":10573.154,"text":"都要捍衛中華民國那去跟中共不管哪一個單位談任何事情都要站在中華民國的立場然後不可以去涉及到我們兩岸條例所禁止的一些什麼政治性協議或是等等這樣子那"},{"start":10576.092,"end":10593.203,"text":"我覺得各個政黨國內朝野各個政黨在面對中共的時候立場是要應該要一致的是好OK謝謝好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝我們感謝李坤正委員質詢我們這裡王定宇委員"},{"start":10594.693,"end":10620.653,"text":"王定宇委員 王定宇委員不在王定宇委員不在我們再來請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在 陳冠廷委員不在我們再請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在我們再來請習新穎委員質詢"},{"start":10630.556,"end":10640.943,"text":"謝謝主席本席有請陸委會梁副主委內政部吳次長還有法務部的謝參事三位 謝謝委員好好 謝謝今天我們在這裡審查反滲透法的修正草案"},{"start":10658.137,"end":10681.202,"text":"那我想兩岸局勢緊張是不爭的事實那中共對台灣的影響無孔不入我們也都很清楚但是我們跟對岸的差別就是我們是民主法治國家這跟對岸最大的不同所以我們的所有的法令我們應該要堅持法治請問三位認同嗎"},{"start":10683.228,"end":10710.853,"text":"認同 對所以今天審查的這個法案我看了各部會的報告那特別是法務部提出了很多關於法律明確性還有罪行相當的疑慮我認為這不是推託這個是非常負責任的表現我們非常肯定所以我們立法院的職責就是我們要把法治工程做好 建設好"},{"start":10711.613,"end":10740.152,"text":"而不能修出一部定義模糊可能會被濫用甚至最後還被憲法法庭宣告違憲的法律所以我今天的質詢我要從法治國原則來出發我們對反滲透法我們從來沒有反對而且我們也覺得有其必要但是你這部法律你不能夠定義模糊所以接著本席就要針對"},{"start":10741.653,"end":10762.062,"text":"像這個我們有提案再來就是我覺得這麼重要的法案行政院沒有版本好像也不對我們希望行政院有版本那我們就很多委員提出來的特別是針對你參選人針對你參選人你人也沒有定義清楚"},{"start":10762.947,"end":10791.799,"text":"我请问我小学生老师说你未来要的志愿是什么我要选总统你都不定义没有时间没有人的定义我想选总统那他是总统女参选人吗还有我们很多委员的助理可能他想选议员甚至他未来觉得他想接委员的这个职务他开始做了很多确实是女参选人想要做的事情那他是不是就是女参选人"},{"start":10793.004,"end":10812.366,"text":"人没有定义清楚再来什么叫做渗透怎么样叫做被对岸渗透那如果他是这个有机会他去观光旅游那他是不是然后有一天他来参选他就是被渗透所以像这个部分我想请教"},{"start":10815.072,"end":10831.307,"text":"我們法務部是不是先來講一下對於本席所說的 你看法 你認同嗎因為你們在裡面 你們就講了法律明確性跟罪行相當所以像這個擬參選人 你要怎麼定義還有滲透 你要怎麼被定義"},{"start":10832.368,"end":10860.555,"text":"是 谢谢委员垂询那首先我们这边立场其实跟委员以及提案委员一样我们都认为国家安全的确保以及国家主权的巩固其实是很重要的那我们提出的法治意见里面为什么对女参选人这边会有说明其实是为了让法案更加的完善尤其是女参选人的定义该怎么定义 法务部的意见是吗因为我们目前的可找到的法治上有三种定义可是三种定义都长得不太一样"},{"start":10861.115,"end":10886.354,"text":"那也因為如果從文藝的射程上你參選人會細緻於參選人的主觀我到底想選或不想選最後有沒有一個客觀行為去框定他所以等一下像我們一般會用到你參選人以我們參選的經驗就是你可能要去監察院登記有沒有你參選人帳戶不然其他也不叫你參選人所以是不是他登記下去那個算他是你參選人他沒有登記前"},{"start":10888.363,"end":10901.589,"text":"委員講的是就是政治心理法的其中一種定義因為在選八法47條之三的立法理由其實有提到另外一種定義因為這個條文有擬參選人他講的是選舉公告之日起依政治心理法規定報經監察院"},{"start":10903.923,"end":10932.922,"text":"報警監察院許可設立證明限定專務之人這個是這個證明憲法的定義他也有定義所以這個當然我們在討論的時候進入委員會討論的時候我們要用什麼定義這可以討論但是最重要就是不能沒有界限的定義我們是贊成要定就把它明定對要明定這一塊那再來就是滲透怎麼樣叫滲透有什麼明確的定義怎麼樣叫滲透"},{"start":10934.522,"end":10947.42,"text":"所以今天到大陸旅遊算不算滲透吃了一餐飯算不算滲透這塊三位都表達一下好了委員你有特定指的是哪一條的構成要件嗎"},{"start":10948.746,"end":10969.978,"text":"我不好針對我們特別的委員那你們看了你們應該知道滲透沒有很明確的定義因為其實還是要回歸因為我們講的明確性原則會套用在兩個地方一個是行政法的明確性原則一個是刑法的明確性原則強度是不一樣的但是滲透都沒有明確指出那你最後到底怎麼樣你可以算他是有被滲透"},{"start":10971.215,"end":10989.161,"text":"沒有 沒有明確再來再來因為時間的關係再明確對 應該要再明確嘛所以我希望另外兩個部會的次長跟副主委你們要聽 要了解本席所講的跟法務部的意見那再來還有就是參與"},{"start":10991.908,"end":11017.407,"text":"我們在這個反滲透法裡面出現了參與兩個字好今天假設我們設定有某個候選人真的有明確的證據明確的真的有被滲透的事實那你用了一個參與兩個字所以在他的競選服務處在他的辦公室幫他打掃的算不算參與打掃的志工幫他端茶水幫他做一些"},{"start":11018.107,"end":11046.689,"text":"事情的志工幫他做文宣整理的那這些都算參與嗎所以這個太模糊了非常模糊這一塊這個部分我想這樣好了請副主委回答一下副主委你那個參與跟滲透我想委員剛剛講的這個狀況應該不至於啦譬如說我們講參與黑道組織好了如果你是在賭場裡面幫他們做清潔打掃的工作"},{"start":11047.753,"end":11066.524,"text":"那在檢方來講不會把你當做黑道組織的參與者所以你這個參與沒有明確定義所以參與的定義一定是你有共犯的犯意的聯絡如果說我只是說去某一位候選人那邊去打掃那個是不可能的"},{"start":11066.724,"end":11094.509,"text":"所以你今天讲得很清楚就是你的参与那所以我们在法条中当然我们还没进入主条嘛所以在法条中这个都应该要定义得很清楚才可以但是目前的法条没有嘛对但是法条永远不可能把穷尽所有的状况对但是我们总是要定义清楚嘛包含我们这个法务部也讲嘛有些明确性法律明确性跟罪行相当这一块还是要确认好"},{"start":11095.748,"end":11117.735,"text":"那再来的话统战 来请教一下什么叫统战 如何定义还有灰色地带行为那这个副主委可以讲一下好了什么叫统战 要如何定义那今天是你这个执法单位或者是行政单位你认定是统战就是统战这样很可怕"},{"start":11118.035,"end":11125.093,"text":"如果是這樣的話那起訴率跟定罪率就不會那麼低了沒有 所以這個"},{"start":11126.83,"end":11146.429,"text":"對啦 起訴率不高啦底下是誰在一直講話徐委員 徐委員你剛剛講到譬如說去大陸吃飯這個事情現在辦的主要都是我現在就是講你現在在法條裡你統戰你一定要明確定出來統戰還有什麼灰色地帶行為來 你講看看什麼叫統戰什麼叫統戰"},{"start":11149.164,"end":11161.914,"text":"統戰就是利用各種方式去影響和拉攏台灣這邊的勢力這樣來來來那接著我們請參事貴姓謝參事剛剛我們副主委講的這個這算明確嗎"},{"start":11169.247,"end":11178.793,"text":"他剛剛講的那幾句話謝謝委員垂詢那因為委員所垂詢的其實是在草案目前的第二條有一個灰色地帶行為人裡面有提到統戰活動的部分"},{"start":11179.409,"end":11204.548,"text":"因為現在沒有實定法的定義所以這東西就變成說當然是有明確定義是最好比較好操作也比較明確但如果沒有明確定義的話可能就要從這個法規的意旨裡面再去從實務發展出來他的確定的外延範圍因為這畢竟他搭附的後面草案是有相關的刑責的規定的在明確原則上面會稍微嚴格一點不過統戰行為這邊還是要"},{"start":11206.545,"end":11225.464,"text":"一方面要參考主管機關相關的說明跟解釋對嘛 沒有定義嘛灰色地帶呢 灰色地帶呢你也講不出來所以這很明顯啦這部法律真的我們覺得要再精準不好意思主席我最後你們請回座我最後中選會很重要對你也很重要來我們請中選會好不好 來"},{"start":11226.864,"end":11245.72,"text":"總選委對大家都重要要選舉的人蔡處長蔡處長現在我們2026已經進入了升委進階元年你知道什麼是升委吧現在AI的升委很可怕如果今天你看我們王朝偉"},{"start":11246.881,"end":11268.041,"text":"他未来他在嘉义很强但是如果他的对手在选前几天突然因为我们立法委员像王委员他在立法院质询他那个声音太多了你只要到内政委员会你就可以收集他的声音然后AI就用他的声音模仿出来"},{"start":11268.601,"end":11295.151,"text":"他跟大家說假設他說我承認什麼什麼什麼會影響選舉的讓大家本來要投他的最後不投他或者說還是身體為一樣或者是怎麼樣我退出選舉這種情況有人做了用AI做了這個假的模仿了候選人的聲音甚至講了一些對選戰具有非常非常影響力的"},{"start":11296.371,"end":11325.955,"text":"我请问你们有准备吗你们有在选战过程中因为像这些深维的东西它在网路上传播只要几秒钟在LINE Facebook TikTok或YouTube甚至IG各方面那我请问你们现在在各大平台中选会你有没有建立选举期间的绿色通道你可以用最快速的你有没有一个SOP你最快速的针对这些非常不实的你们可以马上去澄清有没有办法"},{"start":11326.665,"end":11353.336,"text":"報告委員依據公職人員選舉罷免法的一個規定你參選人候選人如果是在選舉公告到投票日前一日為止知道有人利用這個網際網路這些媒體來看播他的身為影音那他可以付費向警察機關來申請鑑識那如果警察機關申請鑑識的結果是具有深度偽造影音身為的"},{"start":11354.877,"end":11368.834,"text":"這個情形的時候他可以向這些看播這些影音的這些媒體啊來這個請求停止看播或是限制瀏覽移除下架等等那如果是意圖使候選人當選或不當選的這種情形"},{"start":11371.677,"end":11385.638,"text":"公子玄爸爸104條就有5年以下那如果是用身為影音我不是在問這個我想王委員聽得懂選前之夜這個一傳下去我還什麼還取警察機關還什麼"},{"start":11386.88,"end":11414.285,"text":"那整個都要翻盤了你不馬上出來有一個綠色通道澄清我告訴你隔天那個選舉就很大問題你看我們召委點頭了我要的不是你這個答案你大概沒聽懂但是我請你要帶回去因為今天我們這個主委副主委沒有來所以你因為我也不好佔用大家太多時間這個是非常非常嚴重的問題非常非常嚴重"},{"start":11415.598,"end":11433.665,"text":"我們中選會如果沒有辦法的話進入AI時代我們這個選舉真的會很亂而且這一些在網路上這種伪造 深偽伪造的然後再這樣傳播在關鍵時候就絕對出問題趙偉你認同認同"},{"start":11439.13,"end":11458.464,"text":"好他要回答包委因為這個如果涉及擬參選人候選人的這個是不是真實的沒有擬參選人我告訴你擬參選人沒有那麼激烈一定是選舉選舉前三天甚至前一天就是候選人對候選人也是包括因為是不是這個散佈的這些影音是不是真實"},{"start":11459.364,"end":11474.001,"text":"候选人应该是最清楚的对对对所以OK候选人如果马上提出来的时候对你们的SOP有多快我们要知道是这个还有你有没有办法马上官方的澄清我刚刚一直讲选举期间你的绿色通道啊"},{"start":11475.141,"end":11497.787,"text":"對 現行的機制就是有沒有 你回答我有沒有現行選務機關是就針對選務機關的錯假訊息有一個綠色通道所以你的意思說是警察的職權對 那如果是候選人涉及到候選人的不實的這些謠言或是不實的散布謠言或是不實的事項是要由候選人向警察機關來申請見識"},{"start":11499.352,"end":11527.456,"text":"那他這個廣遍媒體受到這些所以不是中選會的職權那所以你的意思我要問警察機關你有沒有綠色通道可以來公告主持這個選舉的這種狀況剛剛提到就是104條如果說有這個機制就是如果是利用身為影音來意圖使人當選或不當選來散佈謠言傳播不實之事的這個是有刑責的"},{"start":11528.524,"end":11533.729,"text":"至於說什麼是身為影音我插話一下 現在委員會來問的是發生的提議之後你們有什麼作為然後能不能遏止 隨便去找審判單位或是你們有權力來做歐北人說的有辦法趕快去下架"},{"start":11554.926,"end":11566.411,"text":"現在這個問題是這樣對啊 甚至你要官方你有這個公權力你可以讓大家知道這個這個是像你剛才說的好選人最重要這個是圍罩的這是真的假的但是好選人知道的時候要求助他們中選會的時候中選會沒有一個機制出來沒有SOP還有那個速度很重要現在就是這樣才會吃人"},{"start":11583.238,"end":11599.867,"text":"我覺得不管帶一桶都一樣要有好的人才不可以受到這種的應用他現在是你問的時候是說如果發生這個事情你有多久的時間可以去寫下來不管你是通報帶一個單位是要公平的選舉"},{"start":11610.112,"end":11633.281,"text":"不要讓人家後輩來心肝壞的企業用AI來人家無聊來人家惡惡賊賣這樣不好現在他說的意思是這樣沒有啦 你們現在還沒有啦要加油啦 是不是我想應該是這個答案 好不好加油啦我現在也沒答案啦今天沒答案不表示說"},{"start":11634.953,"end":11643.637,"text":"下個會期 下個會期你們業務報告的時候這個一定會是很重要的重點時間漸漸開始了謝謝謝謝我們感謝習慶雲委員諮詢我們家葉研資委員諮詢"},{"start":11668.949,"end":11686.883,"text":"麻煩請陸委會陸委會 副主委委員好副主委好 我想問一下如果我們國人在國外去譬如說歐洲然後他要辦理退稅然後因為店員寫錯了國碼把我們台灣的國碼寫成了中國大陸的國碼"},{"start":11692.079,"end":11714.1,"text":"那這個應該不會是陸委會業務如果要宣導的話應該是政府應該哪個機關去宣導國馬就是因為他寫錯國馬早知道不能退稅所以應該要告訴我們國人說如果以後到了歐洲到其他國家去假設要申請退稅的話在對方的店員在填國法之後你要仔細看"},{"start":11714.724,"end":11736.174,"text":"不要說因為填錯了害你之後退稅你覺得這個應該要我直覺應該可能是外交部或觀光署應該跟陸委會沒有關係那這個應該如果國人在國外面臨到這樣的狀況政府如果多多宣導的話可以降低國人旅遊的困擾嘛我覺得這個事情也是應該要做了"},{"start":11736.957,"end":11753.574,"text":"最近又發生一件事情就是有一個網紅叫叫鍾明軒他因為自己就遇到我剛剛講的狀況他去歐洲然後因為就是電源的國碼寫成中國大陸的所以他就沒辦法退稅然後他就提醒大家他就發了一個文說"},{"start":11754.595,"end":11779.618,"text":"各位親愛的旅遊的好朋友如果出國的話遇到這個狀況要特別注意其實這個應該是一個好事吧結果民進黨不分區立委郭玉琴就去酸他說沒事中國人 有事台灣人好像那個郭玉琴講的中國人講的應該是他的中國應該指的是中華人民共和國應該不會是中華民國 對吧"},{"start":11780.439,"end":11804.612,"text":"聽起來 語意上 對吧那就跑去酸他我是想問一下就是我不知道因為鍾明軒我不知道民進黨的立委是怎麼認定鍾明軒是中華人民共和國的人我不知道他怎麼認定的可能是鍾明軒最近比較常是不是有去中國大陸他可能有去拍了一些影片在網路上面有受到爭議對 我其實就是想要問"},{"start":11805.712,"end":11833.566,"text":"副主委因為我們陸委會為什麼會存在是根據兩岸人民關係條例那其實某種程度上也要促進兩岸的關係那現在如果有我們的國人到大陸去也許他覺得那邊的風景不錯或者是他想宣揚一些東西拍些影片就直接被認定是中華人民共和國的人我覺得這樣子的帽子扣太大那這樣以後誰還敢去對岸旅遊然後去對岸旅遊誰還敢"},{"start":11834.213,"end":11838.38,"text":"說哎呀這個風景不錯哪裡很好玩什麼東西很好吃你樂見這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":11841.485,"end":11867.078,"text":"我覺得單純的拍影片當然不構成問題啦但是現在問題就是說中共他們有很明確的就是說針對台灣的網紅有做一系列的拉攏 扶植 培育的動作這個要證據啦沒有錯這要證據啦那現在所以周明軒現在還在爭議之中嘛那個不如我給你報告如果有爭議就不會爭議了啦其實那個時候那個時候那個"},{"start":11868.018,"end":11895.564,"text":"跟民進黨很好的網紅什麼八九閩南郎有剪一支影片然後裡面就提到海峽島海峽什麼島報講說他可以找周明軒後來其實最後被證明那個閩南郎也證明說那個其實經過剪接對方媒體根本不認識周明軒所以很多訊息都很片段而且是經過錯假資訊的認知作戰然後那如果在這種情況之下就直接給人家扣一個帽子說他去旅遊"},{"start":11896.294,"end":11926.029,"text":"然後他去怎麼樣他就是中國人中華人民共和國人所以我真的覺得真的沒有必要到這樣的一個地步那當然你講的如果說有被刻意怎麼樣怎麼樣違法的當然大家也都覺得不能接受可是沒有沒有證據直接扣帽子這樣子好嗎而且這種氛圍也影響到國內因為我們國內現在以前也發生過應該是陸配吧當Uber司機可能他講話中國口音中國大陸的口音"},{"start":11926.736,"end":11932.846,"text":"馬上就輕咬就說好可怕啊 國安問題啊怎麼連計程車都有國安問題那這是代表說任何只要"},{"start":11933.539,"end":11957.066,"text":"從大陸來的不管他是嫁過來的或者是娶台灣的老婆來這邊最後定居取得身分他都有他都第五縱隊嗎我不知道陸委會應該也要我們陸委會對於所有來台灣的陸配我們都是長期以來都是處於一種照顧協助的如果是我們當然支持一定要照顧協助可是現在社會的氛圍是這樣就是很多人刻意散佈這種錯假的資訊嘛"},{"start":11959.187,"end":11963.455,"text":"然後你好像只要講話是中國口音中國大陸口音你就你就有問題如果你"},{"start":11965.697,"end":11993.881,"text":"你是站在照顧陸配的角度我覺得對於這樣的一個不好的氛圍你們應該是時候也要出來講一些話陸委會該講話的時候就會講譬如說上一次那個張文的事情有人就說什麼他的父母是陸配還是什麼這樣子那這個陸委會就立刻會出來澄清那就是結果了那個就是說因為發生重大事件陸委會陸委會就會出來澄清可是這種氛圍是慢慢慢慢累積的"},{"start":11994.401,"end":12004.701,"text":"就是平常的時候可能有類似狀況就要出來講話而不是說等到像這麼重大事件因為那個張文的事件是發生這麼嚴重的事情還有人要來操作這個"},{"start":12005.583,"end":12031.308,"text":"事情當然你們必須要出來講話那非常非常嚴重可是這種氛圍其實是逐漸累積的在台灣的社會在蔓延當中但是我有可能也要了解一下他逐漸累積的根源其實是因為大家對於對岸的一些作為不是啦也有很多錯假的訊息嘛他會有一個反效果出來就像我剛講的嘛怎麼連連陸配可能陸配開計程車都要被汙名化說是不是第五縱隊"},{"start":12032.308,"end":12055.29,"text":"類似這樣啊我覺得不應該啦還有一個啦就是像我我在前年的時候我去亞洲啊去馬來西亞參加一個台商年會嘛那時候我剛好遇到海基會的人海基會就帶台商大陸的台商去馬來西亞去做那個交流可見其實海基會陸委會對於照顧大陸台商也是你們工作職責之一嘛"},{"start":12056.004,"end":12073.605,"text":"然後結果在黨的立委去參加台商活動直接就被抹紅成去接受任務而且是完全沒有任何證據情況之下網路上也是超多這種錯假的訊息我是 因為主席站起來我是覺得說如果今天大家討論反滲透反滲透當然不應該"},{"start":12074.665,"end":12089.664,"text":"不是 滲透啦 不應該啦要怎麼樣 該怎麼樣 再怎麼樣可是正常的交流或者是正常的一些生活真的不應該無限上綱到什麼都不紅的這樣這其實才是造成社會對立的一大根源啦我希望說陸委會可以"},{"start":12090.424,"end":12110.398,"text":"幫忙消除這樣的一個氛圍是 我們該講話的時候就會講話這絕對沒有問題但是現在就是說整個社會因為中共對我們的壓力和一些軍事作為實在是大家越來越感受到越深所以它會有這樣的一些反應出來但是你們還是可以做一些事是 謝謝"},{"start":12117.514,"end":12131,"text":"謝謝 感謝葉研資委員質詢我們省化衛委員不在我們省化衛委員不在我們省化衛委員不在我們省化衛委員不在我們省化衛委員不在我們省化衛委員質詢"},{"start":12148.427,"end":12155.965,"text":"好謝謝主席我先有請國安局謝謝國安局"},{"start":12163.692,"end":12189.859,"text":"好今天國安局來的是副處長副處長你好我們先來看一下週末我們看到一系列關於國安局的新聞報導我們來看一下第一個是關於談到中國如何透過認知作戰滲透台灣其實我看到這個新聞報導我非常的開心怎麼說不是開心中國的認知滲透作戰力氣這麼強而是國人總算有機會看見從國安局這邊來的報告"},{"start":12191.158,"end":12202.366,"text":"我們台灣到底受到哪些的侵略跟攻擊很可惜的是在野黨委員可能沒有看到這個報告所以我要呼籲今天所有在野黨內政委員會還有司法法制委員會的委員應該要來看一下相關的報告"},{"start":12202.745,"end":12226.666,"text":"看到國安局如何提醒國人中共做這些事情是如何希望創造台灣內部的混亂第一個包含激化我國內部對立削弱國人抗敵意志影響有蒙元台意願還有爭取認同中共的立場剛剛徐姓委員一開始就說他希望相關的反滲透法不要修出一個違憲的版本我要說最好笑的是"},{"start":12227.626,"end":12255.996,"text":"違憲的事情就是他們自己在做去年在內政委員會關門三分鐘送出法案不讓民進黨的委員進入內政委員會就是他徐欣穎所以我希望徐欣穎自己說到做到他應該要誠實認真面對現在中共鎖定移美移軍的加強認知作戰的訊息這才是最大的危機剛剛徐欣穎委員更荒謬的說逼所有的行政官員要在台上講出相關的定義我就說如果他們真的對定義有這麼多的疑惑跟不解"},{"start":12256.676,"end":12277.678,"text":"那我們就真的好好討論不要到時候又全盤否定好所以我要再次謝謝國安局我們來看一下你們還有下一個報告下一張提到所謂的異常帳號跟爭議的訊息那我想我就國人一般的立場來跟國安局副局長這邊副處長這邊請教你們如何定義所謂的異常帳號跟所謂的爭議訊息可不可以用白話文說給國人聽聽看"},{"start":12280.243,"end":12300.637,"text":"異常帳號就是平常沒有什麼其他活動然後看起來就是不是一個正常人會使用帳號的一些稱呼那平常正常帳號會發哪些貼文就是跟其他帳號會有互動那異常帳號可能就是完全沒有互動或者是臨時註冊註冊時間很短然後平常沒什麼發文然後也沒有在跟別的帳號互動這個可能被你們定義為所謂的異常帳號那所謂的爭議訊息呢"},{"start":12304.769,"end":12321.539,"text":"他會散佈一些不實的訊息可能會跟市場有所出入那他還會有一些其他帳號的輔助或協力來去刻意炒作所以他會散佈不實的訊息經過你們的查證之後確認他是不實的訊息散播然後還會配合其他的異常帳號做協同操作對嗎"},{"start":12323.911,"end":12350.869,"text":"所以異常帳號加異常帳號加上爭議訊息這就是你們目前查獲231萬余則的爭議訊息的消息所以我想確實台灣在這個議題上陷的是很困難的處境真的希望在野黨委員不要為了黨而黨不要因為不敢面對台灣跟中國之間這個困境或者是只是一心想要討好中國我真的不知道在網美會委員召委排完之後"},{"start":12351.189,"end":12366.586,"text":"後續有沒有辦法進行逐條討論後續有沒有機會送出委員會連剛剛徐心穎自己身為新竹縣長可能的國民黨候選人她自己都擔心她在選舉的前一夜可能受到假訊息的操作而被翻盤"},{"start":12367.367,"end":12381.754,"text":"如果連他自己都擔心那我就呼籲所有要競選縣市首長的國民黨委員民眾黨委員拜託你們就一起支持相關的修法好謝謝國安局這邊那我還看到你們相關的訊息還有說"},{"start":12383.255,"end":12407.654,"text":"因為呢打台灣的勝算可能很低如果只是就武力攻台的話而且只要台灣人的抵抗意志一天沒有消滅他們就越來越難打過來所以我們看到下一張來下一張呢我們看到有發動所謂的名嘴啦網軍協同攻勢也就是大家在網路上滑社群媒體的時候是一種樣態但是打開電視機開始按第四台"},{"start":12408.554,"end":12430.391,"text":"從第一台按到第五百台就會出現不同的網路網軍名嘴這個也是你們發現的對不對而且你們說還有接近五十個帳號進行高度協同產製六個階段的推進四層的心理攻擊跟全面系統化的設計透過這些名嘴製造恐慌製造投降 製造分化的心情這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下"},{"start":12431.431,"end":12449.546,"text":"是 包委這個訊息不是我們發布但是跟我們掌握的差不多因為這個中共他在操作認知作戰一開始他會設定一個基調跟方向結果會透過一些網軍或是一些協力者來去進行傳散跟推播然後再運用大量異常的賬號來去把這個聲量推高然後再透過大多數圓散法就會"},{"start":12451.11,"end":12470.202,"text":"這樣要傳播到其他國人的手機訊息上好 我們來看一下什麼叫做特定事件來看下一張之前中共軍演的時候就所謂的正義使命2025軍演這個荒謬的名字我們就發現他們出了一個照片其實我自己也有看到我第一時間意識到我認為我自己認為它可能是假訊息"},{"start":12470.862,"end":12491.08,"text":"所以我第一時間就趕快先上網查相關的訊息而不是急著把它散播出去但我認為很多國人可能沒有這樣的意識可能光是看到101看到一個直升機不明就裡的也不管這個照片的解析度也不管訊息的來源也不管相關國安單位或是國防單位發布的訊息就快速的傳播出去"},{"start":12491.44,"end":12517.097,"text":"所以我用這張照片來說 我認為確實相關的宣傳非常重要剛剛不管葉元之委員也好 徐欣盈委員也好都對著行政官員說 退稅要宣導啦 這個國安的事情也要宣導我就說 去年的總預算 我們所有的沒宣費被刪光光我現在回過來看 他們會不會有一個惡心 有一個惡意就是把所有的沒宣費刪光光 然後再來指責你們行政機關宣導不利"},{"start":12517.717,"end":12544.77,"text":"所以我也很好奇像這個101被監控問號機器人巷戰這個問號中共視覺洗腦這個新劇本我們相關單位如何透過沒有沒宣費的情況下還是廣發訊息讓國人知道你們的做法通常會是什麼包委按照本局機制掌握到相關訊息我們會第一時間掌握相關狀況然後通報給相關機關那同時我們也會溯源如果涉及到這些違法事證也會請司法檢查機關來去做依法徵處"},{"start":12546.581,"end":12569.412,"text":"好 可是我還是很擔心我還是要呼籲 雖然今天是在講反滲透法但是不要忘記了所有行政機關今天所有被叫來的行政機關你們後續在相關事情上的努力如果沒有透過一定的宣傳力道其實是出不去的而且剛剛副處長你講了一個非常重要的事情現在不管是哪一個社群平台不管是FB IG TRADE或者是"},{"start":12571.073,"end":12586.247,"text":"都有他自己的演算法而且演算法取決於誰要付錢誰願意花錢買廣告我相信你們國安單位不可能去買廣告我也相信今天所有的行政單位都不會花錢去買廣告釋放所有相關想要釐清錯假訊息的訊息"},{"start":12587.148,"end":12607.709,"text":"所以在我們沒有錢花 花錢買廣告然後我們相關沒宣費用又被砍光光的情況下總預算又不省我真的不知道後續你們所有為了國安所做的努力如何要讓國人有正確訊息被知道我也覺得非常的荒謬齁好 時間有限這邊先請回那我要請陸委會副主委 謝謝"},{"start":12608.939,"end":12624.793,"text":"江副主委好副主委本來準備了很多問題想問可是我剛聽葉元智那個我真的聽不下去我們來花一些時間釐清好不好因為有人講了錯假訊息我們就來釐清錯假訊息因為他們剛剛非常在意所謂錯假訊息"},{"start":12626.058,"end":12647.537,"text":"主委我剛剛 副主委我剛剛查了退稅的時候我剛剛看你有點不是很確定我也趕快在底下上網查因為我從來沒有在國外退過稅對我就知道來我幫你科普一下來退稅的時候如果在歐洲的精品店因為鐘鳴軒說他是在精品店中國的退稅代碼是156台灣的是158我先幫你科普一下好"},{"start":12648.437,"end":12675.265,"text":"那意思就是說他是在精品店拿出他的這一本台灣的綠色護照然後就拿到了精品店給他的一個退稅單上面的國際代碼呢他可能自己一時不察很開心就收進了包包然後他到了機場拿出這個精品店給他的退稅單準備到機場去退稅可能未來我們到日本也會是這樣然後於是就發現不能退他損失了一萬多塊其實事情是這樣的"},{"start":12678.441,"end":12699.54,"text":"剛剛葉元芝說你們要宣導啊你們要宣導你們要宣導國人出國的時候呢退稅代碼要正確其實這不關你陸委會的事說實話其實這是外交部的事情但是因為他剛剛指名要問你我也不知道他為什麼要這樣做但我們就說我也很想知道陸委會你們其實在相關對於國人出國尤其到中國或是港澳地區"},{"start":12700.14,"end":12709.35,"text":"如果有一些可能比較危險的狀況不是只有像退稅這麼開心的事情你們通常會透過哪些管道去做宣導跟加強訊息的散播"},{"start":12710.58,"end":12732.572,"text":"我們通常都是公開的訊息因為其實我必須說台灣跟大陸往來這三十幾年其實全世界對大陸最了解的就是台灣人比日本人 比美國人我們都要更了解所以台灣人其實並不是不知道那邊的狀況但是大家"},{"start":12733.573,"end":12755.633,"text":"台灣人的可能勇氣比較足啦所以有的時候都願意去冒險犯難這樣子我們台商有冒險犯難的精神好 那傅駿你先不要走問你一題剛剛徐欣盈也很著急然後我們網美會要選市長也很著急來看下一張再下一張好 再下一張"},{"start":12757.34,"end":12782.502,"text":"來 委員我告訴你 好龍斌 劉彩薇招AI合成影片趙少康直指中國借選 我不知道副主委你還記不記得這個新聞是我記得那當然他這個是政黨內的選舉啦其實不在 中選會有請喔也不在中選會的規範範圍當中對不對可是主席那個我們現在的主席王美惠委員自己現在是嘉義市長候選人的提名人 本黨的提名人"},{"start":12783.362,"end":12808.649,"text":"確實他們非常擔心在選前相關AI合成影片可是我就問最好笑的是國民黨這些委員遇到自己黨內主席在選舉的時候趙少康都出來講話的沒有一個立法委員跟趙少康站在一起沒有一個人敢像趙少康一樣公開的說中國請你收回去你的手中國請你不要跨境管轄中國請你不要介入台灣的選舉"},{"start":12809.985,"end":12831.71,"text":"請停止中國屆選只有趙少康敢講連趙少康的子弟兵許曉欣可能都不敢講那我也很好奇喔請問中選會那個副主委請問中選會你們未來怎麼看這個事情其實我知道他們黨主席選舉不關你的事可是未來2026地方大選就關你們的事情所以中選會這邊目前有什麼防範的做法包委員就是還是就是說現行的這個選報如果是"},{"start":12839.777,"end":12861.472,"text":"這個用這個電腦合成技術的這些深微影音的部分那候選人如果知悉的話他是可以這個付費向警察機關來申請鑑識然後再向若是經鑑識為偽造的話深讀這個偽造影音的話那是可以向這些廣電媒體來申請下架"},{"start":12861.792,"end":12871.154,"text":"那這些廣電媒體是兩日內就要移除或下架或限制瀏覽那如果沒有的話是可以處罰款那如果是"},{"start":12871.997,"end":12893.841,"text":"有其他的特定的意圖是使人不當選的這個是有刑責的這是可以104條是可以處7年以下有期徒刑的對 那我來說一下現在本黨委員李博義跟吳立華委員提案修改反滲透法就是希望一 罰則要增加刑度再來就是把所謂的黨內初選 政黨提名罷免公投跟列入期間 下一張"},{"start":12894.381,"end":12911.538,"text":"所以這有可能可以讓中選會作為參考所以我確實要說這一次要修反滲透法本黨所有提案的委員確實把現在我們在民間不管是透過社團法人組織或者是個人在平日或者是選舉的時候可能影響的樣態其實"},{"start":12912.939,"end":12940.705,"text":"方方面面都修法考慮進去了我真的希望後續在主條討論的時候在野黨的委員不要抱著法理的精神說我們都支持法理的精神我們都支持民主法治我們都希望修出一個不要違憲的版本那我就說你們就來支持相關的樣態不管是各式各樣的選舉不管是加重刑罰或者是設立國家安全專業法庭如同剛剛所有主管機關所說的我們跟中國之間的關係確實是越來越緊張但"},{"start":12942.325,"end":12968.847,"text":"我們是被害人我要再次強調台灣跟中國的關係越來越緊張的前提是台灣是被害人加害人是中國極權政府是習近平政府請在野黨委員不要再搞錯狀況不要再指責被害人繼續加害在被害人身上變成所謂的在台協力者所以我們辦公室全力支持反滲透法相關提案的修法也請各個主管機關我們一起努力喔謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":12973.99,"end":12975.297,"text":"謝謝 感謝陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":12979.312,"end":13001.925,"text":"登記發言的委員除了不在庭以外 所有都已經發言完畢 審討結束委員內部有專瑞雄委員 林靜委員 丁薛忠委員 徐欣穎委員所提出的書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":13004.586,"end":13010.971,"text":"書面質詢及被答覆的部分 將相關單位在一星期內依書面答覆並複製本會特定屬行所列議案另定期繼續審查本組的會議到現在結束 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也請部長"},{"start":8.324,"end":34.971,"text":"謝謝 今天還是要感謝昭緯 廖昭緯對 部長好 部長辛苦今天還是感謝昭緯把這樣的案排進來讓大家有充分討論的這樣的一個時間跟空間最主要是各位委員都可以從各個面向來看待這個要新立的這個法的這個內容然後進而是要來處理基本上就只有一個目標要處理少子化的這樣的一個問題的存在"},{"start":36.511,"end":59.445,"text":"不過就是剛剛在程旭花園的時候特別提到那也成如剛剛楊瓊美所講的就是這個鵝哨的這個發展帳戶就我們在107年的5月正式刪除通過到現在實施也將近8年的時間那有參與的這個鵝哨應該是3萬多那實際上有已經有在這個專路裡面已經有30多億"},{"start":60.606,"end":76.405,"text":"那我想他特別的開宗明義的對象就是低收中低收還有長期安置超過年齡以上的兒少那我想在這個部分裡面我們是不是要從這樣的一個利基點然後去做擴充"},{"start":77.546,"end":85.17,"text":"然後是用社福的這樣的一個角度去做延伸剛剛我聽到楊委員的說法應該大致上是這個樣子我覺得這個絕對是可以討論的因為有一個基礎在不然我們現在訂一個台灣的未來帳戶然後另外又有這個兒少的發展一樣是未來的發展帳戶只不過它的對象一個是全部一個是有特定的對象"},{"start":102.979,"end":116.796,"text":"這兩個會造成會有衝突吧那是不是在這個新的法的部分要不要把這個也納入還是怎麼樣我覺得大家都可以討論也可以給部長還有相關單位來做一個思考嘛這是第一件事情"},{"start":117.256,"end":133.322,"text":"那第二件事情可能我們要很細心的來細究我看到有一些相關的資料現在如果照這個版本的規劃好像初期就要高達1180幾億然後如果12年的支出又要高達到2840幾億兩個加起來應該是到4500億左右"},{"start":141.365,"end":147.755,"text":"4500之後我們有沒有去推估說因為這樣的一個法律的訂定之後奏效"},{"start":148.9,"end":168.044,"text":"熊熊原本是預估12萬今年可能沒有辦法到12萬了對不對去年啦 2014年可能沒辦法到12萬但是因為這樣的一個法律訂定之後刺激了那確實有生育率有提升然後他到時候變成13萬 14萬甚至於更高甚至於回到以前有可能20幾萬的那個狀態的情況之下"},{"start":170.965,"end":194.264,"text":"那這個法律有什麼樣的一個因應的一個處理的條文在裡面嗎顯然是沒有看到但是我們是朝向好的方向去做思考那萬一錢投入這麼多就像有很多委員講說確實國家在因應少子化相關的政策裡面也投入了相當多的經費但是好像"},{"start":194.984,"end":224.224,"text":"好像效益都不是很大那這個情況之下我們是不是透過這個法就可以足以來期待這個生育率可以提升解決少子化的問題我想這個還是一個蠻大的一個問號存在那台灣內亞商戶到底是專門是要對少子化的政策還是我剛剛講的他是要從兒少的這個攝乎的一個政策去做延伸還是他只是一個單純的就金融投資的政策"},{"start":225.084,"end":242.606,"text":"川普 川普帳戶 部長應該知道嘛對 那川普帳戶他好像也是一個事辦計畫他好像是從2025到2028針對那個時段出生的嬰兒去做實施事辦那我們現在這個帳戶的草案 台灣未來帳戶的草案顯然是"},{"start":244.168,"end":264.224,"text":"顯然就是長期的嘛 對不對就永續的嘛所以真的很多面向的事情我們必須要去做討論那我在這邊要幾個例子給各位也給部長做參考OECD社會政策分析單純的現金轉移或是家庭津貼對提高生意率有一定正向關聯"},{"start":266.038,"end":281.54,"text":"但效果規模有限尤其生育率長期低迷的國家例如日本 韓國當然也包含台灣那我們台灣的中央醫院言之有物的專案中又特別提到現金補助金額要非常高"},{"start":282.56,"end":309.559,"text":"才可能看到明顯變化那分析指出指出只有當今天非常大例如幾十萬甚至幾百萬的規模時才可能對生育決策有較大的影響或者提升的效果還是還是有限的不管是參考國外還是參考我們臺灣自己中研院的這個調查報告那我要去表達就是說我不曉得部長怎麼看待這個事情能不能請部長簡單回應一下"},{"start":312.402,"end":331.095,"text":"跟委員說明我們本來在推動從106年開始一直以來的這個兒少的未來教育及發展帳戶這個主要是要幫助弱勢家庭不要有貧窮繼承的這個循環下去所以他針對的是這一塊"},{"start":331.835,"end":352.088,"text":"那今天看到的這個委員的版本提出來的這個比較像是對於兒童的投資未來的投資但是呢要解決少子化那麼我們就擔心這中間並沒有去扣合到它的效果是不是能夠解決這個少子女的現在這個嚴峻的問題這個是另當別論"},{"start":355.31,"end":370.581,"text":"那如果從要解決少子女化的問題來講那顯然的這個育兒的經濟壓力機會成本這個是最重要的考量啦所以我們過去都是從這個地方去著手"},{"start":371.081,"end":388.163,"text":"那雖然過去這幾年我們這個挹注了這麼多的預算那麼生育率不見提升我們還是得檢討那我們現在檢討起來是看到說如果在25歲到44歲這一段年齡的婦女有結婚"},{"start":389.264,"end":409.943,"text":"他的生育率是被維持住了 沒有下降但是呢 不婚的 在這段時間沒有結婚的他的生育率很低 就是低於1%可是這個比率卻是提高的從1990年的時候 這一個年齡層的婦女未婚的大概是21%可是去年來到了52%"},{"start":411.664,"end":439.723,"text":"所以會讓整體的生育率下降這個我們分析起來是這樣所以從剛剛委員所提醒的確實第一個要用經濟誘因的話那麼我們的力度還要不要再強化第二個呢台灣的社會的生育跟婚育觀念綁在一起有很大的關聯性所以怎麼樣去鼓勵走入婚姻走入家庭這個是另外一個要去努力的方向"},{"start":439.943,"end":454.296,"text":"好 我用那麼多時間讓部長好好的說清楚了那我想應該是這樣我是不是可以簡單一個總結嘛部長對這個台灣兒童未來的帳戶的這個草案來講基本上他要讓少子化"},{"start":455.037,"end":472.227,"text":"可以明顯的去做改善基本上是還有待商榷啦應該是這麼說啦我講這樣算是很很保守啦 也很客觀啦我是陳獨部長回應我的這種說法那我們很多的育兒津貼坦白講其實這幾年政府也是下注了非常多嘛那實際上"},{"start":473.608,"end":499.213,"text":"顯然的效果還是那個落差還是蠻大所以還是有很大的這個討論的空間 檢討的空間那我覺得與其要來討論這個帳戶我還是希望可以回歸到我剛剛特別提到舊城堡部長所講的107年5月份通過的108年開始實施的這個兒少的發展未來發展帳戶從低收中低收長期安置甚至還有220萬的邊緣戶的家庭"},{"start":502.153,"end":518.524,"text":"至今沒有辦法進到這個帳戶裡面我覺得這一個是讓請各位不管在座趙爺的委員大家都可以來思考我們如何先來幫助這一群小朋友反而好像是比較呼而他們現在要去訂定這個辦法"},{"start":520.365,"end":546.3,"text":"更來的有實質上的幫助跟效益的存在然後至於要如何讓少子化我想另外又是一個廣泛的各個層面各個角度來大家專家學者還有立法院還有行政官員大家坐下來看怎麼樣來設定相關的議題然後來把過去已經實施行之又年的相關的政策再提出來通盤的來分門別列的分組來做相關的討論"},{"start":547.561,"end":558.835,"text":"我覺得這對整體的少子化政策應該比較會有實質上的幫助啦部長你應該可以認同吧非常非常讚同這個委員的這個真知灼見謝謝啦 謝謝部長你辛苦了你請坐吧 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楊卿發言 邀請部長請部長楊委員好"},{"start":14.468,"end":39.882,"text":"部長好部長我們少子化的這個問題呢已經達到國安以及經濟的這個危機那我們看到呢這個2025年新生兒的預估我們要到去年的10月大概9萬多將近10萬所以我們還是希望能夠有突破11萬人但是呢我們看到這各類的補助包括你的這個托育津貼"},{"start":42.622,"end":61.066,"text":"延長這個教保的服務啊或者是人工生殖法現在有很多的縣市也正在補助那以及那每台10萬元的現金補助但是這個都是短暫性的都是短暫性或者是一次性短期的一個措施他沒有辦法真正的讓這個人願意去"},{"start":64.907,"end":93.417,"text":"去生養所以在這種情況之下你的數字根本沒有回溫到目前為止沒有回溫所以我們現在提到了一個台灣未來的帳戶法案希望說從12歲以下的兒童設立專屬的帳號初始就以5萬每一年提撥1萬交給專業的基金來做管理跟協助所以到了18歲他可以累積基本上"},{"start":93.897,"end":118.648,"text":"就有33萬元那同時當然這個專屬必須要限定它的使用用途它的使用用途就是就學就業執訓這個創業購屋的自備款跟租屋費跟它相關的我們將這個制度來化為長期投資的方式那有別於目前的這個零散的補助政策"},{"start":119.548,"end":136.543,"text":"那我們的目的就是要真正去減輕家庭的一個負擔所以本席要在這邊請教提出了這樣的法案那你是否支持將這個台灣未來帳戶納入你國家少子化整體的一個策略請做說明"},{"start":137.243,"end":163.724,"text":"跟委員說明去減少這個育兒家庭的經濟負擔就是我們過去少子女化對策的核心的精神就是在這裡那至於說這個未來賬戶能不能夠達到減輕家庭負擔的目標我們是還有一些疑問因為它是在未來才能使用但是它現在是育兒的經濟壓力那需要先被紓緩這兩個當中的對策"},{"start":166.946,"end":193.147,"text":"那麼跟問題之間能不能夠直接的扣合這我們需要再研究研究你們願意去研究好但是我要告訴你因為你衛福部少子化對策的計畫你從2018年到2025年總共花了多少5931億元5931億元但是你給我們的數字是低減少子化是越來越嚴重"},{"start":195.202,"end":209.461,"text":"我們從剛剛本席說的2018年到2025年花了將近6000億的預算這都是人民的納稅錢 你沒有與時俱進所以你的答案是少子化越來越嚴重"},{"start":211.503,"end":234.764,"text":"越來越嚴重了是不是如此跟委員說明我們也看到一些細部的資料從25歲到44歲的這個適合生育的年齡的婦女來看那麼他們如果有婚姻的那麼他的這個生育率還是維持在83到90這個過去沒有掉下來我們把它維持住了只不過"},{"start":235.865,"end":253.599,"text":"未婚的這一段時間未婚的那他的生育率一直是低於1%而這個未婚率到去年來到高峰是52%所以是因為不婚率上升之後讓我們的生育率下降所以在整個政策上需要再去強化我們會來努力"},{"start":254.079,"end":268.005,"text":"還好你這一句需要再去強化你也知道問題點在哪裡2018年到2025年我們花了將近6000億的預算你知道問題在哪裡你怎麼去做調整那麼我們已經提出了這個帳戶的台灣未來帳戶法案"},{"start":270.686,"end":278.672,"text":"我也希望得到你的一個支持因為你原先從106年開始推動的兒童及少年未來教育與發展的帳戶你從這個收入中低收入戶的孩子以及長期安置的兒少的部分來幫他們存入了第一桶金我希望把這個角色擴大因為我們現在所面臨到的樣態是跟以往不一樣剛剛你所提出的點非常的好"},{"start":299.387,"end":317.899,"text":"從一個person提升到52%這個是52倍是非常嚴肅的一個議題所以我希望你能夠採納本席我們中國國民黨所提出的這樣的方案那本席也願意你們好好的去研討我們希望在2018年到2025年花了將近6千億的這個經費你的答案是少子化越來越嚴重所以絕對有必要進行方案這是本席給你建議 是嗎"},{"start":328.546,"end":356.862,"text":"好我们会来研究因为我们过去的这个儿少的未来教育及发展账户主要是要克服这个贫穷继承的问题希望他能够脱贫在他成年之后能够脱贫那如何是以弱势优先扩大这个大家都非常的清楚就是你以一个点本席希望点线面去扩大来解决因应少子化的这个问题是"},{"start":357.342,"end":359.988,"text":"是 好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝委員 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吳司長"},{"start":2020.404,"end":2047.972,"text":"整合評估司苗慧芬 苗司長國防採購是趙雅萍 趙主任人事參謀次長是侯嘉倫 侯次長情報參謀次長是朱惠民 朱朱次作戰及計劃參謀次長是連志威 連次長後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔 李次長"},{"start":2049.926,"end":2054.728,"text":"通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝俊山 謝次長訓練參謀次長是郭俊德 郭次長陸軍司令部陳建義 陳參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮 邱參謀長空軍司令部李慶然 李參謀長後備指揮部薛淵泉 薛參謀長"},{"start":2079.037,"end":2104.54,"text":"憲兵指揮部文念中文參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部梁永坤梁參謀長資通電軍指揮部周文祥周參謀長軍事情報局李永康李執行長電訊發展室林振維林執行長國防大學李承忠李教育長"},{"start":2106.724,"end":2112.066,"text":"國家中山科學研究院李士強李中將李院長本日會議邀請國防部報告國軍如何強化戰場持續戰力對於戰時高消耗情境下彈藥籌貨之應處作為與規劃並被質詢現在請國防部顧部長上台報告"},{"start":2143.823,"end":2166.306,"text":"主席 各位委員先進今天自外交國防委員會實施彈藥籌貨規劃專案報告承蒙各位委員對國防建設及戰力維持預算的支持再次表達誠摯的敬意與謝忱國軍因應敵情威脅每年檢討修訂聯合專案計畫"},{"start":2168.499,"end":2193.304,"text":"並依作戰全程需求分別以建案籌獲新式武器彈藥及作業為止會補充戰備、訓練用彈確保國軍戰力持續增長達到防衛固守、重層嚇阻的戰略目標相關預算除了每年公務預算投資外部分也循特別預算加速執行以對應共軍日益嚴重的敵情威脅"},{"start":2194.364,"end":2210.873,"text":"其透過本次報告讓大院委員及國人了解國軍彈藥籌或整體規劃並請各位委員指導與支持接續由後勤參謀次長室次長李鳳祥中將向各位委員提出專案報告"},{"start":2220.128,"end":2225.88,"text":"國軍如何強化戰場持續戰力對於戰時高消耗情境下但要籌獲之應變作為與規劃專案報告"},{"start":2228.595,"end":2247.724,"text":"首先報告前言國軍每年依敵情威脅修訂聯合作戰計畫並由各軍種依計畫目標檢討作戰需求尋建案籌獲新式武器彈藥建構多域巨子任性防衛作戰能力並運用作業維持費補充戰訓用彈確保國軍持續精實訓練維持戰力不墜援救國軍彈藥籌獲情形及後續規劃提出專案報告"},{"start":2256.587,"end":2272.578,"text":"新式武器裝備的籌貨國軍每年依照建軍整備的需求修訂聯合戰力規劃完善中長城的計畫作為並就近期目標核定五年兵力整建計畫確認執行案項以推動新式武器裝備籌貨"},{"start":2274.386,"end":2279.069,"text":"相關建案均同步籌貨戰備及訓練彈藥確保貨裝後滿足戰備需求並預留作業的期程持續以作業維持費分年補充訓練用彈國軍彈藥籌貨管道國軍依獲得的來源"},{"start":2292.336,"end":2314.023,"text":"國內外產製能量獲得其成等因素綜合檢討以達到滿足戰訓需求優先國內產製維持國防自主能量為目標同類彈藥以軍備局中科院為之為主輔以軍購商購手段多元管道並行方式辦理強化整體供應鏈體系國軍彈藥籌貨的現況區分為建案獲得"},{"start":2321.192,"end":2339.426,"text":"以及作業維持費籌補在建案獲得方面配合愛國者三型飛彈等執行中建案國軍將持續接收各式新式的彈藥並同步完成庫儲、陣地設施整建人員訓練等配套措施完善整體後勤支援"},{"start":2340.928,"end":2363.628,"text":"115年起配合年度預算及特別預算編列持續籌獲M腰動鉤A拐自走炮等新式裝備持續強化精準火炮遠程精準打擊防空及反彈道反裝甲及無人載具等關鍵戰力適應未來作戰型態建構不對稱戰力相關帶要需求均已同步納入籌補規劃"},{"start":2366.158,"end":2381.812,"text":"作業維持費籌補的部分為強化訓練成效國軍持續落實實戰化訓練提高實彈射擊的訓練評次以及數量本部以一年度訓練需求完成分年的籌補規劃結合彈藥產製年份同步計劃性的推耗庫儲彈藥確保庫儲彈藥品質"},{"start":2388.683,"end":2400.99,"text":"因訓練需求逐年的增加除每年以國內產能最大量持續生產外109年起以結合軍商購的管道提高分年籌補量以滿足訓練的需求並維持戰備所需國內彈藥產製的能量及應變作為"},{"start":2408.82,"end":2427.087,"text":"因國際形勢 關鍵物料採購不易 針對無人機及無人艇產製所需炸藥本部已規劃尋多元管道 建立不同的獲得來源 強化供應體系因暫時高消耗 本部已規劃增建各類型彈藥 發射藥及炸藥產線 提高國內自主產能"},{"start":2432.554,"end":2454.221,"text":"考量戰時海空運輸彈藥補給不易本部將結合新式裝備獲得持續深化友盟合作導入友盟技術爭取新式彈藥自主生產建立在地彈藥生產線同時優化國軍彈藥管理及儲存設施以強化作戰持續力對應戰時高消耗需求"},{"start":2456.725,"end":2473.99,"text":"結語 國軍現階段已藉由多元管道持續補充戰訓彈藥並建構產線 提高產能克制透過對外軍備交流管道洽談建構共同生產夥伴關係強化在地生產能力減少對外供應依賴提高風險因應的能力"},{"start":2474.71,"end":2485.59,"text":"感謝大院支持與指導國軍將持續完成建軍備戰整備盡最大努力獲得足量彈藥支持作戰全程的需求以上報告請請各位委員先進支持與指教謝謝"},{"start":2490.438,"end":2505.731,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長有請顧部長"},{"start":2522.342,"end":2537.117,"text":"是 羅委員好部長早安 剛剛報告有提到就是說我們國軍的彈藥籌貨來源有國內自製也賦予對外軍購或商購等多元的管道的各種方式來取得前陣子有關於5.56公里鋼芯普通彈的外購價格被抨擊說買貴了"},{"start":2545.345,"end":2568.631,"text":"因為說20年前經費局賣給美國每一顆只有6塊錢然後我們現在對外購買我們的單價高達18.86元針對這個質疑到目前為止我都還沒有看到國防部有一個正式的說明而且我們也被質疑就是說我們明明有自己資產的能力為什麼還要跟國外來購置這個部分的話是不是請部長在這裡具體說明一下"},{"start":2574.894,"end":2592.607,"text":"我先說明一下 跟美國那邊的合作主要是因為美國提供發射藥 抵火 包材 還有運輸我們只做彈頭 銅殼跟組裝的部分"},{"start":2593.999,"end":2617.916,"text":"所以20年前的部分是這個六派紀念嗎有一個時間點是94年到民國100年一個是101年到109年那這兩個都是由美方來提供發射藥底火跟包裝材等原料而且還有提供運輸等等那這個部分我們在"},{"start":2620.518,"end":2640.096,"text":"205廠他所負責的是只有彈頭銅殼跟組裝的部分那跟委員再進一步報告一下就是說我們這一次有對外來採購這一次有對外來採購因為大家都在問對外採購的這件事情我先說明一下那個價格的部分現在絕標價格應該是可以公開的所以我們現在是15.5315.53"},{"start":2645.221,"end":2652.189,"text":"15.53不是說原先報導所講的就是18.86那個是預算金額那是預算金額決標的金額是15.53那麼我們有本來就後置式核定的這個提供的入境的價格是16塊"},{"start":2661.55,"end":2689.321,"text":"一發所以我們對外採購並沒有比較貴這個要說明一下因為這個這兩件事情是不一樣一個是當時跟台美合作的這個是一件事那我們現在要自製軍備局有生產這個5.56的鋼琴彈這也是事實那另外跟委員報告一下之所以要需要是主要是這樣就是說因為我們從111年起有我們要涉及的這個"},{"start":2690.601,"end":2693.544,"text":"涉及的訓量已經從111年起由每年的2340餘萬發已經提升到去年是5881萬發就是2340萬餘發到5881提升了2.5倍"},{"start":2714.466,"end":2742.042,"text":"所以我們現在一方面軍備局要擴產整個的產線那擴產整個的產線會在今年會陸續但是這個相關有一些底火的部分或者是還有一些現在可能是一個產線只能做一種彈那現在要把它拆成四條線那這個部分也其實是放在那個"},{"start":2743.701,"end":2761.955,"text":"特別 敵火放在特別 或者軍備局再跟您跟委員報告 這個也是上禮拜跟馬委員都報告過了我們原本光中營區的生產線會用貢線大概一年大概是兩千多萬發那現在已經請中科院來維持FN的產線有四條線 一條5.56 今年三月會全量產"},{"start":2769.881,"end":2787.618,"text":"7.62跟9公里手槍跟507槍的槍彈是放在9月那這個達到之後就跟上次馬文君委員給我們指導了4000萬發5.56那這個量都沒問題的只是說要應付暫時我們的敵火我們原本我們的救線的敵火是大概2000多萬"},{"start":2788.579,"end":2811.171,"text":"我們一定要提升到4000多8000多所以我們特別預算有特別編了一條抵火的線前一陣子不是有媒播出來說我們跟大使國際有買了4億顆嗎我們是為了要建置中間我們怕各軍種的量產所以我們購進來的實際上我們還是要爭取特別預算有一條就是要做抵火的敬請委員支持以上報告"},{"start":2811.431,"end":2833.017,"text":"OK那剛剛我有聽到部長說其實後面到最後的價格我們其實一顆大概是15.53一顆不是原先所報導的18.86那是對外購買的部分對外採購我想請教今年我們應該也有自製我們的絕標的價格到底一顆是多少我們自製的部分價格是多少因為我有看到111年我們那時候的絕標價格是一顆是9.5塊"},{"start":2838.359,"end":2843.313,"text":"9塊半 是嗎111年的時候 我有看到一個這個應該是沒有"},{"start":2844.943,"end":2850.206,"text":"跟委員報告20年來陸軍從來沒有給我們委制過5.56鋼芯彈那這也是20年來我們因為搬遷的產能不足的調節第一次對外採購5.56鋼芯彈M855跟馬委員講的沒錯M855自製的部分我們自製的價格到底是多少我們自製的價格現在已經部搬價格就46塊了"},{"start":2869.518,"end":2874.662,"text":"我們的部分就是16塊我們現在是16塊是不是今年114年1.15開始就是16塊委員講的是普通單因為我在想普通單是9.5普通單是同胞簽我們現在統一陸軍的需求就是同胞綱讓它實戰化"},{"start":2894.525,"end":2919.485,"text":"OK 好了解所以目前為止的話這個部分因為我沒有看到任何國軍在這個價格部分有自治能力這部分有提出對外的說明因為我們搜尋了很多的資料我想第一時間如果有質疑有被質疑有疑慮我想應該要第一時間就要來說明這個部分對不對這個因為這美共戰然後還有這個"},{"start":2921.087,"end":2938.306,"text":"現在這個要有底火有發射藥有什麼所以我也是聽了有點複雜所以我們會努力來澄清一下是 因為已經事隔這麼多天了我到一直到昨天我們還在搜尋說我們有沒有一些官方的說明說實在的確實是沒有"},{"start":2938.986,"end":2956.773,"text":"所以才在這裡請教部長跟各個單位那再來還有一點就提到就是那個產能的這個部分因為我有看到像之前我們軍備局有評估戰時我國的作戰時日整體單兵步槍的耗彈大約是3.5億顆對不對這是你們之前有提到這個部分嗎是嗎這個部分之前我有看到你們軍備局有在評估這個部分我們軍備局不會評估作戰的需求量這個部分是"},{"start":2970.988,"end":2978.683,"text":"因為我有看到媒體有報導這個部分到底我們如果是說我國作戰時日的話我們整體單兵步槍的這個彈耗大概是多少我想這個我們現在因為"},{"start":2984.315,"end":3010.42,"text":"就跟委員報告就是說我首先說明我們在108年的時候為了要配合高雄市的那個部分的一個經貿園區的一個開發所以我們在108年的時候是有曾經有請各軍種來回復我們各彈藥的一個需求這個時候我們就加速生產然後在100年現場之前來"},{"start":3011.82,"end":3034.917,"text":"提供了這個含糊各項的需求然後在18年如期產製滿足但是後來就是因為我們剛剛講的我們現在是訓練的實戰化的訓練跟義務役的增兵的關係還有我們14天教召的關係這幾項因素包括義務役14天教召還有這個實戰化訓練都大幅的增加所以剛剛講的那個訓練的這個部分我們就會要來這個"},{"start":3039.961,"end":3069.101,"text":"已經每一年要發射發出成長2.5倍那另外這個是等於是已經把訓練用的打的彈已經用掉了戰備的量所以我們為了要提升整個戰備的量我們現在要雙軌並行也就是說軍備局要產製那另外也如果有必要的時候也要進行這個外購那至於我們現在評估戰時的整個的量"},{"start":3070.202,"end":3085.801,"text":"我想可能沒有辦法我想並不是以公開在這邊整個說明因為包括我們的吸行量補給還有等等的我想這個部分我們我們可能私下可以來說明但可能不以公開的來說"},{"start":3087.347,"end":3111.895,"text":"所以以現階段來講其實我們自己本身的生產的量其實基本上還是不夠所以我們還是需要對外採購是嗎 是這樣子這是已經現階段因為我之前看到說我們明明是有自產的能力為什麼還要外購這部分可能就是我跟委員報告 按照我們"},{"start":3112.975,"end":3134.168,"text":"假如產線FN今年都互現了我們的新舊線暫時三班次下去產制我們一年都可以產一億發以上可是一個子彈要配一個底火我的底火是趕不上的所以我要用特別預算編一條底火的線底火的線假如增產完之後那條底火的線到達5000萬平時暫時可以到達7000多萬將近那在原來的2000多萬加下來"},{"start":3140.112,"end":3146.333,"text":"我一年就可以生產一億發以上的敵火 以上報告OK 好 謝謝再來還有就是稍微一點時間我想再給我一點時間我有看到我們1.25兆的國防特別條例草案裡面有提到第四條第六項它有提到就是強化作戰持續量能相關的裝備其實這個是不是就含了我們戰備彈藥的"},{"start":3164.059,"end":3169.188,"text":"囤儲的這個部分如果說這個條例一直沒有通過的話那這個部分是不是也受到一些影響這個說明一下嗎"},{"start":3170.809,"end":3195.348,"text":"委員好 戰委司司長在這邊跟委員報告我們在這次特別預算裡面除了我們剛剛討論的小口徑彈藥之外另外一個重點事實上是大口徑的彈藥那國軍目前大口徑的彈藥以及大口徑的發射藥是需要大幅提升那在之前我們已經說明過我們要把我們的戰備庫存因應敵可能的各種狀況去做提升"},{"start":3195.968,"end":3204.049,"text":"那這個數量雖然沒有辦法在這邊公開可是它的額度是相當的大必須要用特別預算來做一次性的採購才有辦法滿足"},{"start":3206.644,"end":3226.98,"text":"好 不管是這個1.25兆國防特別條例或是我們的這個國防預算我們真的希望在野黨一起來努力那明天呢我們又遇到這個程旭委員會在場也有程旭委員會的陳永康委員請大家一起來支持啦讓這個國防特別條例呢明天能夠順利的呢 赴委來做審訊好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來我們請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":3246.075,"end":3248.981,"text":"好主席有請顧部長請顧部長部長早是陳委員早是"},{"start":3259.141,"end":3277.173,"text":"剛剛聽完了部裡面的各同仁的報告當然這裡面有些是專業的因為這邊很多都在對外在直播我們外面的同仁老百姓並不見得聽得懂我們先講這個步槍彈從當年的口徑從7.62變成5.56這個二三十年前就這樣子了那個時間並沒有防彈背心"},{"start":3286.621,"end":3306.874,"text":"所以我們那個時代一個陸軍步兵一年才打38發到了馮世寬當部長的時候提升到100發那這就是你的彈藥的消耗在那個時代連我們的警察都是買我們國軍彈藥我不知道現在警察還有沒有買我們的彈藥還是他們自己向外採購"},{"start":3311.414,"end":3335.837,"text":"跟委員報告 警察假如是我們5.56同用跟7.65都是跟我們維持的也是向我們採購 以上說明因為剛剛提到了就是說現在你面對的敵方包括我們自己國軍我們都開始有防彈背心了就傳統的鉛彈頭貫穿力是不夠的因此你才有鋼心彈但在過去大家沒有提到這一點"},{"start":3336.678,"end":3365.801,"text":"那我举例美国陆战队学校在Quantico他们每个人一年的年度训诞超过500发所以未来很明显的我们的训练除了陆军的发射弹药在增加以外海空军的基本上在基地防卫的训练的弹药也在提升所以这个如果大家能够做更明确的表白表示这个钢心弹头跟以前是不一样的那这个时候外面的老百姓就比较了解了"},{"start":3366.784,"end":3391.718,"text":"對 我們現在就是打算就是說訓練用彈就用在射擊的時候就把它都推成掉以後我們就只生產甘辛彈是…我這邊列一個表就是根據我們國防部四年期總檢做出來的我也算是花了一番工夫把裡面都降讀了我們在下面就是"},{"start":3393.171,"end":3418.741,"text":"建议具体的规划江财宁讲了不只是军备局中科院商购外购建立整体的能量那要强化整体的供应链这个时候重要作战区预知后勤的补给站提升运输效能在运输强弹药的同个时间软性的问题就是我们的急救伤患尤其是在弹药库的附近了"},{"start":3419.537,"end":3441.938,"text":"那个急救伤患同样我们的血浆配合这个案子要增加就是统合民间的物力人力资源资源竞速作战同时我们也强化这个一位的资源那跨部会强化关键基础设施同时维持社会核心的机能跟政府运作那下张图表就是我们战死国军的维持力啊"},{"start":3443.243,"end":3457.49,"text":"原則是維持作戰部的彈藥無虞在有限時間內確保儲存的這個安全儲存滿足部隊的需求這裡面就產生了彈藥庫本身的電力供應因為"},{"start":3459.11,"end":3478.72,"text":"彈藥庫的安全是很重要的它的緊急醫療這個戰傷的幫助要在附近另外通往彈藥庫的道路電網或者緊急發電機甚至機動發電機這個部分也是要能夠在配合這個案子同步強化並不是指一個儲存量"},{"start":3480.08,"end":3503.08,"text":"彈藥庫的內部很深如果沒有電了用人力是沒有搬運的所以並不是光步槍彈這個時候就涉及剛才講的大口徑的砲彈大口徑的砲彈在年度訓練過程中因為射程近所以中間有部分送藥打掉了結果你不能夠整體的彈藥就不能夠用了因為你不能發揮到最大射程"},{"start":3503.76,"end":3524.109,"text":"所以这个时候的送药的就像您讲的那个配合产制这个时候要强化可是呢因为平时的演训啊我们的射程都是展示型的这个1500码2000码所以都看得见爆炸点所以你送的送药的几号送药消耗的特别大而其他的送药呢留在那边"},{"start":3524.989,"end":3545.803,"text":"保存的时间又不一样了所以这个时候在未来尤其是特种火炮这个弹药储存配合训练用的因为这个时候不是光弹头了这是送药的组合不是药桶式的那大口径的是这个样子我想大家了解尤其是外岛的像240基本上你现在是"},{"start":3546.804,"end":3572.095,"text":"送药是不够了在这个里面就强调不只是硬体包括国军后勤补保运位的人力人力要增加因为你弹药的需求储存量增加后勤的人力相对的要增加要确保道路交通重要道路的畅通这个部分是不是在配合全案建案的时候后勤人力有成长"},{"start":3575.353,"end":3603.596,"text":"委員好 向委員報告我們後勤的人力一直持續在檢討那當然現在因應這個缺員的狀況下我們即便增加了員額可能也不一定有人但是我們現在一直在朝這個方向在努力同時您剛提到連外的道路部分以及交通運行的部分這個部分國安會現在也有重視以及跟美方的研討之後有非常多在道路交通暫時的時候如何管制以確保我的部隊調動我的後勤補給資源如何有道路使用的優先權這個部分都在檢討"},{"start":3604.588,"end":3612.454,"text":"好 謝謝最後一張圖是強調我們的韌性就是說我們台灣之盾當然面對有挑戰與考驗"},{"start":3614.144,"end":3642.721,"text":"那敵方現在對我們威脅最大的反而不是東風系列的戰術導彈是它現在衛士系列的火箭因為射程夠遠了那麼數量夠多了那我們在防衛作戰的時候用現有的精準武器去攔截這個耗損率太高因此在台灣之盾這個未來的規劃裡面整體運用一下就是說武力的分配我們先看一下這次培洛西來的時候"},{"start":3643.681,"end":3667.1,"text":"这个时候打的还是各位看的这个是打了11枚东风导弹那在这一次中共演习的时候就是打火箭了北部打了17枚南部打了10枚但是我希望我们未来在演习在内部做模拟的时候想象一下如果他今天"},{"start":3668.163,"end":3695.379,"text":"全部是用这些远程火箭精准火箭做第一批的射击那你在台湾之盾有效的指管联合这个目标分配情况下有没有足够的弹药或是哪些地方你认为你能够承受我们比方来讲这是一个模拟的那不只是对了我们的地面的基地海空军的基地陆军的指挥所雷达站"},{"start":3696.857,"end":3720.024,"text":"我們未來的儲存位置就像剛剛你講的也變成了目標了所以在這種情況下我們台灣之盾怎麼樣要做更有效的整合這下面你可以看到未來的火箭它是以量取勝它有足夠的射程這個時候如果我們不能有效分配目標"},{"start":3721.232,"end":3732.224,"text":"或是建立一些假目標讓他消耗我們有限的武器啊就變成效益不能發揮了所以台灣之盾本身呢在這個整體規劃裡面"},{"start":3734.977,"end":3761.983,"text":"不只是遠程的中程的近程的到點防禦的那整體的網絡那結合整個過去講CCISR後來C5ISRT現在還有C6I都出來了但是整體來講這個網絡其實就是讓你的中心可以左右移重心可以前後調節所以去中心化不是目的是你的方法手段要有一個完整的網絡架構那這個時候"},{"start":3765.066,"end":3784.18,"text":"我們才能夠防衛所以現在的今天雖然談的是彈藥持續那不只包括火箭飛彈這個大型炮兵新武器甚至步槍子彈但是最後在這個威脅情況下這個網絡如何能夠發揮有效的效果中科院您做個說明"},{"start":3786.916,"end":3798.003,"text":"這邊回覆委員在台灣之盾的設計裡面當然第一個我們是會去強化我的每一個接戰的效率讓我的每一枚彈藥都能夠達到最精準的接戰第二個就是"},{"start":3799.096,"end":3821.319,"text":"我們也不會讓他的火箭在發射之後他就肆無忌憚的一直發射我們一定是在他發射之初我們也會有相對應的措施來阻止他能夠有效的發射第三個就是針對每個火箭它的威脅性我們要去評斷哪些是我可承受的損失哪些是我必須一定要接戰要把它攔下來的這個在台灣之盾的設計裡面這三點都有考慮在內"},{"start":3822.492,"end":3837.263,"text":"里面提出一个建议就是说因为它的火箭军部署的范畴它的射程超过我们你可以摧毁反制摧毁一部分但是还有一部分是超过射程之外的这个时候未来的新来的这个海马斯或者是真诚的"},{"start":3837.783,"end":3854.13,"text":"看怎么运用所以这个里面又结合了情报的一个是机动目标的位置第二个是固定目标的位置这个都要把它纳入台湾之盾我们在这个议题上需要一个长时间共同努力也希望确实落实这个专案的效益谢谢各位谢谢接下来请黄仁委员上台咨询"},{"start":3872.931,"end":3882.203,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們顧部長還有軍備局跟中科院請顧部長軍備局和中科院就備軍台謝謝是 黃委員好部長好我們針對這個報導裡面"},{"start":3891.417,"end":3905.928,"text":"就是我們我國明明可以自產的一個彈藥卻要對外採購並這個延伸了非常不少的一個爭議國人很多關注"},{"start":3906.912,"end":3919.319,"text":"那我想請教國防部在15億元的子彈的標案我們早能自製外購而惹疫所以我就想請問黎欽這個問題經費局在"},{"start":3923.161,"end":3945.426,"text":"兩棟武廠是我國清兵器及各式槍支彈藥的生產的重鎮但是為了配合高雄市政府亞洲新灣區計畫把原先位於前鎮區的兩棟武廠搬至到大宿區林園營區大宿北營區及光復營區並且規劃建蓋彈藥生產線"},{"start":3950.307,"end":3974.262,"text":"但是國防部在112年的報告205廠在完成搬遷之後那預計在去年的114年的12月以前就能夠恢復那甚至提升產能但是為了工程的這個延宕到現在的子彈的生產性還無法的恢復205廠什麼時候才能恢復子彈生產"},{"start":3978.206,"end":4000.562,"text":"跟委員報告我們原來在光中營區的我們是106年我們就開始做了一個的搬遷原本是只有一條生產線貢獻我們把這個舊的生產線會搬到我們新的一個大宿營區同時偽中科院做FN四種彈藥都把它分開就是5.56 7.62 90公里手槍跟50機槍"},{"start":4004.765,"end":4024.799,"text":"納根委員報告5.56的這條生產線在今年的3月份會正式的量產現在在做小批量的測試7.62九公里手槍跟五年計算是9元那你們整體的規劃裡面本來就去年的114年的12月以前嘛而且你們所有的之前的報告都非常的完整"},{"start":4025.84,"end":4043.23,"text":"那今天你們理由在哪裡今天子彈的生產線都出了問題了你們現在在覆蓋了所有一切的問題又把說因為怎麼樣因為怎麼樣那你們之前的計畫說都已經報告的非常好啊對不對理由都是你們講的國人沒有辦法交代"},{"start":4044.434,"end":4072.544,"text":"大家都會對你們產生質疑所以這個不是你們要講的嘛今天為什麼是114年的時候本來你們12月底以前就要全部那誰歸咎是你們在歸咎還是歸咎了市政府市政府代差代理而且你們無賞無賞撥用給他們使用那應該市政府高雄市政府要負責啊你們為什麼不追究這個高雄市政府然後呢"},{"start":4075.779,"end":4091.637,"text":"跟委員說明這塊土地當時是有長波用給高市府代菜代件是由高雄市政府那既然未完工未完成那是不是你們要歸咎高雄市政府而不是你們來承擔"},{"start":4093.697,"end":4109.854,"text":"跟委員說明我們跟高市府的新工處我們都是每月甚至我們每兩週都有召開一次的會議那是建議之前的疫情然後的工期然後所以真的是工進有稍微一點的延誤後面都把它趕上來"},{"start":4111.756,"end":4126.464,"text":"本來就是我們本來就可以自產自銷而且還要外銷今天我們還要跟人家買子彈我們明明205廠的生產線具有專業而且它的生產絕對是足夠"},{"start":4129.105,"end":4139.57,"text":"而且甚至可以外銷現在就是因為我們為了配合高雄市政府的這個亞洲新灣區然後他們由他們負責代差代件那我們無損不用給他們使用"},{"start":4145.453,"end":4163.722,"text":"然後簽件給他們在那個地方發展結果今天的責任歸屬你們不但沒有跟高雄市政府來討論到底責任歸屬是你們還是高雄市政府你們要承擔還是高雄市政府我們現在的釐清就是這個問題啊"},{"start":4165.023,"end":4189.356,"text":"那你要告訴給國人嘛到底是你們要負責還是高雄市政府你們既然都無償撥用給他們代菜代件那就是由他們來負責嘛是不是你回答我這個問題就好了安委員報告這一塊土地是有償撥用預算是給我們可是工程是由高雄市政府代菜代件這個相對的我們兩方都有責任來共同承擔好你現在的問題就出來了嘛"},{"start":4192.333,"end":4216.708,"text":"對不對高雄不能夠推卸責任你們應該就要從這個角度裡面去追究該付的承擔金貝奇你們自己本身你所承擔的是你們之前規劃 延宕 延誤你們本來就有責任來對外跟國人交代那另外一次我想請問一下中科院"},{"start":4222.104,"end":4235.55,"text":"205廠的彈藥新建的產線當初是唯有中科院辦理對不對是好請問中科院長新建產線新建生產線的部分你們是否一約辦理"},{"start":4239.106,"end":4255.279,"text":"有沒有意願辦理所有的產線我們都是依照跟軍備局的合約來辦理但是因為剛剛講的土建工程的延宕所以我們的相關裝備和產線沒有辦法依照原本合約的時間來復現我根據了解關於新建產線的各項這個設備的採購"},{"start":4260.259,"end":4287.999,"text":"中科院簽約的時間大約在108年到114年間所有設備也都已經購入你們都已經購入照道理講你們沒有責任可是責任在高雄市政府你們一樣你們一樣好好的跟高雄市政府來追討追問責任的歸屬你們不要完全去承擔這樣的責任可以嗎收到"},{"start":4290.287,"end":4318.789,"text":"跟委員報告 我想第一個我們剛剛就被局長已經說明了在今年都會來逐步恢復產能是第一點 第二點有關這個四五大家再見的部分呢他的這個是不是因為疫情的這個影響我們還要再跟高雄市政府我想這邊還要來進行相關的了解我想這個部分我們都一定會把它理清楚部長不管是COVID-19"},{"start":4320.031,"end":4342.112,"text":"我們在金貝啟在這個過程裡面的進程進度也應該要跟國人來做一個說明而不是發生之後我們再來亡羊補牢解釋說因為什麼樣因為什麼樣應該不是我們國防部的態度也不是金貝啟的態度你們要有責任是對國人交代"},{"start":4342.987,"end":4365.854,"text":"我們就應該坦蕩蕩的把問題講出來而不是問題出來子彈的問題生產線為什麼會委外的因素產生了國人非常不瞭解的就是因為這個原因啊我們本來就可以自製生產的而且還是外銷的都可以所以這個就是我們要對外要理清清楚好不好"},{"start":4368.045,"end":4392.67,"text":"剛剛有跟幾位委員報告的就是說因為我們當時估算的這個彈藥的這個訓練因為我們現在因為義務役的關係還有教召訓練的增加然後還有這些實戰化的訓練所以整個的訓練的用量已經增加2.5倍所以這個部分當然也是我們現在要緊急籌購的一個原因所以我們現在增兵不力"},{"start":4392.91,"end":4409.532,"text":"已經三年多了我想說你們趕快把增兵的這一些能夠讓這些有對我們國軍有信心讓增加我們的兵力那另外就是我想請問一下部長你的檢法的思維上次我們特別有提到"},{"start":4410.513,"end":4425.922,"text":"習小新委員跟我已經關心國軍文件新的保防規範因為我們都收到來自一部隊的龐大的抱怨跟不滿緊接到這個國會國軍的士氣非常的影響"},{"start":4426.843,"end":4452.389,"text":"而且也造成了負面的這樣的一個效益所以我想請問一下如果部長在上次說可以調整可以檢討你們我相信你們部會裡面也都有在討論那討論的如何調整找到了一個保房和作業的效益的平衡點嗎請問一下部長你來回答一下第一點當然就是您看到的就是說我們有"},{"start":4454.049,"end":4479.561,"text":"匯整了各方的意見之後就這個屬於對不特定人經過審認沒有涉及國家機密或者是公務機密的部分那屬於公開的資訊的話我們就在夜鎖來標示但是我要跟委員報告就是說我們整個資料治理這個整個在數位化的作業環境之下所有有關這些文書的儲存"},{"start":4482.762,"end":4503.915,"text":"傳遞跟運用在這一個不同的分級制度之下它絕對是有必要的因為相關什麼樣子的人能夠看到什麼樣子的一個密等的資料還有在不同的網域之間能夠有什麼樣子的一個資料輸入我想這個都是我們資料治理跟整個精準"},{"start":4505.738,"end":4514.526,"text":"標示的一個最基本的背後的一個原因那如果我們不這樣做我們沒有辦法跟美方對接我們也沒有辦法共享資訊主席 再給我一點幾分鐘"},{"start":4517.819,"end":4537.495,"text":"講到美方 我們上週你說明的這個新措施是一個比照美方的規範 以利雙方的交流但是本身認為 即使美金的規範 值得參考我們兩國國軍各有各自的一個風格 外國的月亮不見得是圓的"},{"start":4538.616,"end":4561.705,"text":"所以國軍也不一定要照單前收應該適度的調整以便更好的融入國軍那所以希望能夠部長你能發揮你的檢法的思維然後真正的簡化這個文書減少無效的作業那另外就是我們在這一次的F16的新興飛官的搜救的情況"},{"start":4562.765,"end":4591.554,"text":"我們海巡署的弟兄有很多的抱怨那對於搜救的過程裡面有很多的有三個質疑我想請教這三個質疑裡面那搜救的方向錯誤認為海軍未考量黑潮的影響只是在失事的時候點以南海域搜尋措施搜救的關鍵第一個你們只派了100噸級的到黑海去搜救而不派"},{"start":4593.414,"end":4608.84,"text":"一千噸級的那是什麼一回事那另外是還有很重要的就是通聯通聯是第一個發生之後完顯的所有的掃描跟通聯是非常重要"},{"start":4609.46,"end":4628.23,"text":"那是不是缺乏了直接的通聯那只能使用國際通用海事異險頻道CH16作為指揮的指管頻道佔用國際海事的異險資源以上這些問題你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":4629.191,"end":4642.925,"text":"我首先先簡單回應一下就是說剛剛您講那個精準機密的核四部我想我們現在大家都在調適的過程當中我們會陸續收整這個包括官兵還有這各界的一個意見我們會來持續來檢討那我們也會以開放的態度來進行"},{"start":4648.41,"end":4667.407,"text":"那至於有關這個提到我想海軍來先做個回答是 委員好 首先跟委員報告我們以本這個救人第一所以我們在事件不幸事件發生之後我們所有的兵力是直接到現場到現場之後我們就會按照小頓數的就是在沿岸"},{"start":4668.362,"end":4694.21,"text":"大頓宿重大陷阱 但是現在不是嘛因為 報告長他資訊是有問題離岸較近的海域應該是100噸級的離岸以外靠近黑草的因為他的風浪太大應該是1000噸級的來去做搜救啊所以你們海巡官兵裡面的抱怨就在這裡啊"},{"start":4695.49,"end":4721.418,"text":"報委員 我們的確是禁岸就是35噸跟100噸然後比較遠的都是派遣中大型所以這一次你們只派的到黑草那一帶是幾百噸的都是1000噸跟海軍3000噸但問題是不是100噸 1000噸沒有嘛沒有 沿岸沒有所以你們在搜集的過程應該就第一個在外海已經出了多少次的在花東這一帶"},{"start":4722.538,"end":4750.173,"text":"一旦發生應該你們第一個概念就是第一我們先派一千噸幾的先派出去近海的一百噸來作為全面性的做一個搜救跟委員報告就是說確實是我們將小型的艦艇在近岸中大型的在外海共同事務這個報導說把這個近岸的部分派到外面去這一件事情跟事實是"},{"start":4750.513,"end":4762.837,"text":"你們要調查清楚這個是很多你們自己本身的海巡署回報的這樣的一個抱怨我想說大家做一個參考也做一個檢討好不好是好 謝謝主席 以上謝謝接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":4779.414,"end":4782.295,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉有請顧部長好 請顧部長部長早部長因應這個對岸敵情威脅不斷的提升那也針對我們彈藥籌貨的相關規劃尤其是在這個戰爭的時候高消耗的這種情境之下確實是當前我們這個備戰工作一個重要議題"},{"start":4808.146,"end":4832.042,"text":"那從國防部今天所報告的內容來看在執行面上我們是目前是以國內自治為主那外購為輔的原則考量到這個國際情勢在現實上的一個困難那除了要結合多元管道強化供應鏈的韌性以外也因應這個新式武器同步納入但要庫儲存的這個"},{"start":4833.704,"end":4857.883,"text":"設施優化相關規劃那顯然國防部目前對於如何達成這個彈藥供應不中斷的一個目標也已經有相對應的一個策略但是在這個執行的方式上我想就能夠公開的部分來和部長您做一個討論首先在報告當中我們國防部將結合新式的這個裝備獲得導入有盟的技術"},{"start":4859.044,"end":4886.632,"text":"來爭取新式彈藥自主的一個生產來建立我們在地彈藥的一個生產線這對於我們彈藥的持續供應來說是很重要的一個目標但實際上要做到恐怕不是那麼的容易啦那我想先請教部長就是我們目前向友盟爭取在地共同生產的這個彈藥主要的困難點在哪裡那有沒有辦法來克服請部長簡要說明"},{"start":4888.758,"end":4914.144,"text":"我想我們有以這個藥物榴彈炮為例的話最主要就是糖鴨的糖鴨的不同所以我們現在已經跟美方在開始這方面的合作是各位委員報告我們的國產的糖鴨跟美方的不一樣就是說像以藥物榴炮而言我們的糖鴨我們的炮是美軍"},{"start":4915.698,"end":4941.307,"text":"在早期已經計算給我們的砲管比較短那美軍現用的現役的砲管比較長所以它的彈壓比較大那為了我們的防衛的韌性我們台美雙方已經初步的以255流砲因為烏克蘭的戰爭實戰驗證了255流是消耗最快的所以我們跟美方已經初步著手從共同生產255流砲開始"},{"start":4943.368,"end":4964.509,"text":"然後資訊相當的機敏 不便說明成功之後再推展到其他的武器彈藥 以上說明所以156炮這個目前在台灣是可以生產就對了現在在談了正在初步洽談好 那因應這個戰訓需求的逐年增加我們這個彈藥庫存的這個量能也應該一併要提升"},{"start":4965.089,"end":4986.743,"text":"那在這次這個報告當中同樣有提到要優化我們國軍彈藥管理及儲存的設施以強化作戰的一個持續力那針對這個部分我想了解的是我們在現有的人員之下怎麼樣來提升我們庫儲的這個設施的量能和彈藥管理的相關方式"},{"start":4987.814,"end":5012.064,"text":"包委員我們針對敵情威脅的抖聲我們目前針對彈藥是配合我們整個作戰的部署的方式來進行全面性的提升那各位可以看到我們在先前的國土安全任性裡面已經編了一部分的錢去整修我們的彈藥庫那其他的部分我們也會依據我們"},{"start":5013.725,"end":5027.438,"text":"這個分區配置混合囤積加大重生進入地下這個原則部署在每一個地方然後依照他的需求去建各種不同的形式的彈藥庫來滿足未來我們整個防衛作戰的需求"},{"start":5031.445,"end":5047.65,"text":"另外向委員報告我們在整體的後勤的部分未來我們也會採機動化運輸的方式在即將遭受攻擊前我們會把原有的庫儲彈藥做前推預制同時採用機動化的方式在平時的話我們會用我們建制車輛暫時的話會結合民間的力量來共同執行這個機動化運輸後勤"},{"start":5051.374,"end":5072.98,"text":"好那談到這個運輸我想先請教一下在這個戰爭的時候是這個彈藥是高消耗的一個情境那為確保我們迅速而且能夠快速的把這個彈藥運輸到這個需要的位置那我們在推進的過程裡面我想請教是"},{"start":5074.145,"end":5088.028,"text":"這些彈藥離開庫房在運送的過程當中我們要如何來確保他的安全性這第一點那我們目前負責彈藥運輸的這些運具是否足以應對這個敵情的一個威脅報告第一個我們在彈藥運輸的時候絕對是檢派專業的人員隨車來押運第二個在"},{"start":5096.482,"end":5119.138,"text":"任何的彈藥執行運輸之前我們會有機動路線的選定應變計畫的測定以及細故檢查安全措施等等同時如果必要的話我們必須要申請路權至於第二個問題剛剛委員提到的建制數據現在是足夠的當然是因應平時的狀態下那在暫時的部分如同我前面所說的我們會結合民間的力量以及動員的車輛共同來執行"},{"start":5120.819,"end":5134.427,"text":"好 我覺得這個回答應該是比較制式的啦因為我們如果在戰爭的時候我相信我們的後勤車輛一定是被這個敵方所鎖定的而且有可能是針對性的"},{"start":5136.021,"end":5158.504,"text":"我們在許多的這個演習過程裡面也都驗證在這個暫時我們這個運輔的車輛的這種安全性應該是要相對應的提高啦這部分我是提醒啦就我們後續在這個相關的這個演習當中可能這個部分要更加的這個委員提到可能就有兩部分一個部分是屬於暫時的交通管制這個會在暫時成立這個"},{"start":5160.118,"end":5180.44,"text":"聯合運輸指揮處然後第二個是屬於數據的部分那這個部分牽扯到全社會防衛任性也就是說我們現在跟各部會相關所掌握的這些器具跟能力我們要做相關的一個管制那這個部分是軍民到時候就要一起合作的好"},{"start":5181.201,"end":5206.652,"text":"那這部分也是考驗到我們後勤的這個暫時應變的能力這個部分再請我們國防部再留意那另外剛剛也有提到就是彈藥庫的整建整建的部分那我們看到一個非常重要的一個軍事設施的一個投資案是為了要反制共軍在紅色海灘進行登陸作戰的一個威脅預計在這個我們編列的98億餘元要就近"},{"start":5209.953,"end":5238.861,"text":"新建這個彈藥庫和彈藥的整修所讓海岸守備的這個部隊能夠就近整補彈藥有持久這個作戰的一個能力那我想請問部長就有關這項這個計畫建置的內容跟期程以及我們在紅色海灘就近新建彈藥庫的必要性為何並且這是一個跨年度的一個計畫如果今年預算未能順利通過的話是否有這個相對應的一個替代做法"},{"start":5239.641,"end":5266.38,"text":"跟委員報告 國軍沒有規劃在紅色海灘興建彈庫相關的設施都在安全的規劃下是在現有的營區內整建沒有在紅色海灘要興建彈藥庫的規劃那就是現有的我們彈藥庫要做提升就對了我們像以這個韌性預算的話我們就以既有的彈藥庫整建作為優先考量興建彈藥庫的部分也會是在既有的營區之內"},{"start":5267.941,"end":5296.544,"text":"那我們這98億就是要這個經費是用用途就是用在這個現有彈藥庫還是還有我們現有的營區去做98億是指那兩年的那個韌性的預算那都是在整建整建那另外由於這個中小型的這個無人機在戰場上的運用有這個消耗量比較大有的可能拿來做一次性的攻擊就是有去無返那"},{"start":5298.966,"end":5306.17,"text":"這個迭代更新又相當的一個快速包括先前美軍就已經將部分的這個無人機歸類為消耗品而我們這個陸軍應該也已經將無人機轉為這個耗材或是彈藥而不是裝備"},{"start":5313.654,"end":5328.428,"text":"這可能讓我們採購的流程更加的加速也展現我們想要發展無人機的一個決心但是我想和部長您討論的是國防部先前所採購的這些無人機陸續已經交裝了未來也會持續大量購置新的無人機"},{"start":5329.088,"end":5347.123,"text":"那我們無人機庫存這個設施整建的速度是否能夠跟得上膠裝的一個期程那和我們傳統彈藥庫相比的話尤其無人機裝有這個晶片和電池我們如何來強化對無人機的一個庫房的一個保護和管理"},{"start":5348.745,"end":5368.285,"text":"我想首先說明我們現在已經將這個123類型的無人機已經列為消耗品是那攻擊型的這個無人機也把它列為彈藥那來處理它那至於這個無人機庫儲的一個設施的一個準備因為看每個無人機的一個情況不同因為從"},{"start":5369.586,"end":5379.713,"text":"FPV一直到這個自殺式的頭彈式的所以我想整個庫儲我們會按照無人機的這個種類狀況我們來做一個適切的一個庫儲的設施的整備這樣"},{"start":5387.298,"end":5403.508,"text":"好那如果以這個俄烏戰爭的經驗來觀察我們小型的無人機穿透率大概只有10%那消耗量相當的精準因此能否快速的生產或是籌貨到大量的無人機這對戰爭的時候是相當的重要"},{"start":5403.968,"end":5425.11,"text":"那這部分我想再請教部長就是倘若在這個戰爭的時候大量消耗無人機我們如何快速的籌貨在國內這個軍民共同生產平戰轉換的這個機制上有沒有已經建立這個機制是 我們在這次特別預算裡面就會有一個無人機的籌購的一個計畫那我們主要"},{"start":5426.731,"end":5451.904,"text":"當然我們講的是現在軍備局公布的四類的供給型還有一類的健身型這個部分都是以在地生產然後我們讓它具有一個可擴充性所以會模組化的設計那麼讓它透過跟這個自己研發也好或跟國外合作也好然後能夠迭代創新那所以我們會讓這個國內的這個自主的產能藉由我們光部"},{"start":5452.744,"end":5463.93,"text":"以及行政院也正在做一個統籌型的無人機計畫我想目的都是在提升我們國防在自主的能量強化我們暫時的韌性"},{"start":5466.561,"end":5485.591,"text":"好那從這幾個議題我們從這個爭取有盟在地共同的一個生產到這個興建我們彈藥庫房的必要性再到無人機作為這個彈藥使用我想都圍繞在我們這個戰備的一個提升和戰力的一個持續性那這部分也請我們國防部持續"},{"start":5486.831,"end":5505.201,"text":"這個推進相關的整備工作必要時要向我們委員會來做這個預算的說明的急迫性和必要性以消弭我們許多這個委員可能對於這個預算使用的一個疑慮是好以上謝謝部長謝謝委員指教謝謝陳俊宇委員的發言好謝謝"},{"start":5516.701,"end":5520.605,"text":"好下面我們請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席麻煩請顧部長好有請顧部長"},{"start":5537.534,"end":5551.961,"text":"部長好部長我們今天特別會去釘釘這個議題希望國防部可以更清楚的說明很重要的一個因素是我們在近期看到從子彈到火藥"},{"start":5553.602,"end":5568.723,"text":"它發生的問題其實它兩個事件我們看到它有一個共同的起點它都不是我們自己不能生產我們本身都可以做而且過去不管品質 規格還有價錢其實都算是不錯的"},{"start":5570.004,"end":5574.067,"text":"可是我們現在卻一再的決定一定要外購我們想要知道主要的原因是什麼因為從早就是一開始到現在我們聽到很多的回答其實是非常矛盾的就剛剛有提到說我們這個產線在新廠到底什麼時候開始我們到底有多少產量這個部分我想在去年就已經對外"},{"start":5599.844,"end":5627.826,"text":"完成可是後來又到12月說12月其實就可以開始量產那現在又好像要延到今年的3月所以到底什麼時候新廠可以開始跟委員報告我們的委協書就是如同委員所說明的我們的跟中科院的委協書是到114年的12月31號那目前我們的機具也跟委員之前說明了都已經到新的一個營區不管是"},{"start":5628.567,"end":5632.93,"text":"我們不是要知道這個詳細的那個因為他已經延宕了剛剛你們拿疫情來當理由說因為高雄市政府是因為疫情的關係所以我們的土建延後如果要用這個理由那他也已經延過了因為本來應該是前年要完成的我們已經延了一年那現在在去年又好像沒有辦法完成現在又要延到今年三月三月確定可以嗎確定可以"},{"start":5656.547,"end":5664.179,"text":"確定可以所有的四線都可以所有的都可以生產5.56我還是上禮拜跟委員報告5.56是3月其他三條線是9月"},{"start":5666.603,"end":5672.787,"text":"9月所以你又要再往後延一年沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有今年今年3月就是5.56沒有你這個本來應該前年要完成去後來你們對外宣稱說去年12月就可以開始量產那現在又要延到3月跟9月等於你又要延了將近一年的時間是這樣嗎"},{"start":5688.035,"end":5696.278,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟中坑的委協書是到去年12月31號了委協書我都有看了確實我們假如是以委協書來量產我們現在要知道的是我們一言再言的原因是什麼因為這樣沒有影響戰力嗎當你急著編很大筆的預算要外購的時候我們要先很清楚的知道我們自己內部到底發生什麼問題因為為什麼我說你們的說法是很矛盾的剛剛有提到我們過去的舊廠 舊縣"},{"start":5717.987,"end":5728.69,"text":"只有兩條生產線它不但可以符合我們自己的訓量符合我們自己國內的需求而且還可以賣給其他國家還可以賣給民間 賣給美國在作戰的時候使用可是現在我們增加了四條線新廠有四條新的生產線還再加上兩條舊的生產線你們號稱可以生產一億發的子彈"},{"start":5745.034,"end":5773.534,"text":"可是現在還需要外購原因是什麼委員報告就我跟俊輝覺得了解是這樣就是說現況上來講即使不論有沒有搬遷他的5.56公里的這個彈藥跟7.6公里彈藥是共線那所以他生產的時候如果是生產5.56他就不能夠生產7.6你們以前不知道嗎但是我講的是現況不是以前不知道那我們現在講的是說我們現在新的線拆線"},{"start":5774.395,"end":5793.274,"text":"接下來中科院的部分那中科院是不是要說明一下他4條新的線4條新的線那他都可以同時間產製那另外有在跟委員報告就是那個底火的部分底火的部分現在也要透過特別預算來增加那一個底火的產線因為底火才能夠支撐整個彈藥的一個生產每顆彈藥就要一顆底火"},{"start":5797.839,"end":5815.504,"text":"那所以底火的部分透過特別預算會增加到原來現況是2400萬那現在底火的部分是4800加起來就快9000多那如果能夠才暫時的3%的話那就會再增加大概現況跟"},{"start":5817.865,"end":5819.486,"text":"跟現在要加強的狀況大概是如此我們用很簡單的方法來算我們剛剛有提到舊線就是兩條新線再增加四條我們總共有六條生產線你說我們現在一億發的這個子彈敵火會不足"},{"start":5833.996,"end":5837.579,"text":"你明明知道你要生產的是一億發的子彈你的底火沒有辦法生產你當初是怎麼設計這四條生產線你現在如果我們沒有特別預算那你的底火怎麼辦你當初這個是怎麼設計出來的這是我說的第一個矛盾的地方第二個為什麼是一定要用特別預算你在過去新廠的"},{"start":5856.195,"end":5860.359,"text":"在建制的時候我們所有的產線在建制的時候你們用的都是生殖基金為什麼你現在如果有真的需要照理說是不應該現在還要增加這個部分這個根本就是強詞奪理你在設計的時候生產一億發的時候你沒有辦法設計生產低火那你要怎麼生產一億發的子彈如果他3月開始他9月開始你沒有這個低火的生產線一億發這個怎麼生產出來"},{"start":5885.379,"end":5892.748,"text":"這是第一個矛盾的地方第二個就是你不是用特別預算今天我們聽到現在好像大家都在幫特別預算在爭取而已而不是解決我們現在目前我們產生的疑問剛剛不管小口徑也好或者大口徑的單要也好你們都說一定要有"},{"start":5905.483,"end":5909.367,"text":"這個特別預算才可以生產我們過去中科院做那麼多的飛彈你們號稱可以在我們每年的機密預算裡面我們每年不管熊系列不管天宮系列不管其他的彈藥我們都沒有發生過這樣的問題今天突然需要特別預算的時候大家都需要從那裡出來了所以你過去是怎麼做的我們現在要討論的就是剛剛我們提到的"},{"start":5930.626,"end":5932.408,"text":"所有的彈藥你今天兩條舊線30年前的生產線你都可以自我滿足然後還可以出售甚至可以提供他國的戰爭使用"},{"start":5946.123,"end":5951.304,"text":"這個一直用到2020年都是6塊錢那個你們說的那個錢都是話術啦我們賣給他6塊美國就是提供低火跟跟那個發射藥沒有錯可是其他的全部都是我們的生殖中我們自己的205廠生產的所以我們不只是代工你明明就可以做一整顆完整的可以賣給人家我現在要提到的是這個部分第二個就是我們現在"},{"start":5974.828,"end":5982.056,"text":"剛剛你們也提到那個價格的部分114年我們國防部綠定的普通彈跟鋼芯彈的價格是多少"},{"start":5985.936,"end":6004.291,"text":"114年我直接講好了114年普通彈你們訂的是9塊錢就是國防部如果要跟軍備局買普通彈是9塊錢鋼芯彈是14塊你們訂的是14塊包括你們在今年的預算就是今年的預算報告員我們沒有訂14塊這個"},{"start":6010.99,"end":6012.871,"text":"你們綠定的價格14塊不然你的你知道你115年的那個公務預算今年我們算還沒有審可是你的公務預算裡面編列8.9億要向生殖中心購置這個6200萬發"},{"start":6027.475,"end":6029.377,"text":"我們把它換算下來就是14塊出頭就是14塊所以你包括今年編的要買的其實也是14塊可是你在招標上公告上面它一顆的價格高達18.8塊雖然絕標價是15塊多所以我剛剛聽你們說綠定的價格變成16塊我覺得是"},{"start":6049.813,"end":6060.269,"text":"得標以後才滾動式的修正因為你們自己看你們的公務預算不要搖頭也不要在這裡說你們沒有清楚的再去查你們114年綠定的這個一定有一定有正式的文書資料"},{"start":6064.636,"end":6080.346,"text":"容我簡單跟您報告一下一百五十五年公務預算所編列的十四塊一他是十四塊一的時候他那個是最先入軍為了這個這個鋼心彈的需求做的一個訪商尋商的一個價格那實際上"},{"start":6082.688,"end":6086.051,"text":"這個軍備局他對外招標的時候是在去年年底那這個是一個物價上面的差異性所以最終他是以他15.53來得標去查一下美國的網站同規格的子彈比國防部採購的價格低了近三成自己先去查清楚再來回答這些相關的問題我們目前所有看到的而且我想請教部長我們看一下我們這一次"},{"start":6109.195,"end":6117.383,"text":"要採購的都是我們這一次裡面很重要一個有5.56步槍彈的這個型號我想請教部長這四個型號你大概知道這是什麼彈嗎上面有這個應該依序是這個左邊是普通彈然後這個是鋼型彈和M855A1的這個就是一個加強版的"},{"start":6134.827,"end":6157.527,"text":"M85A1是哪一個M85A1是最右邊那第三個勒五星彈好我們這次要買的是什麼彈我們這次要買第二個綠色彈頭的M85鋼芯彈嘛我們自己能不能做新產線可以嘛所以我們自己能做為什麼你們還沒做的時候你要外購"},{"start":6159.42,"end":6162.882,"text":"而且幾乎全部外購為什麼這剛剛已經說明了剛剛已經跟委員報告為什麼因為最主要就是因為這個一年期一物一的徵集還有叫一物一的徵集我們所有的訓場我們所有的靶場我們所有的時間我們所有的教官我們能夠安排的可以打靶的時間有多少那個都可以算得出來是的"},{"start":6179.773,"end":6183.454,"text":"你突然說今年要增加這麼多的一個彈量我剛剛一直提到我們現在有兩個舊線再加上四條新的線它可以生產普通彈也可以生產鋼芯彈就是我們這一次外購的M855鋼芯彈我們買的確定不是M855A1嘛對不對M855"},{"start":6200.638,"end":6204.36,"text":"M855你們再仔細去查一下人家的價格因為現在美國全部都要把它賣掉美國現在用的M855A1鋼心彈因為它M855已經不用了第一不環保第二其實它的殺傷力並沒有想像這麼好它對人員的那個可能供給也沒有像我們說的這麼好"},{"start":6222.748,"end":6250.519,"text":"所以我现在要请教的是为什么我们一定要外购我们为什么生产会不足我刚刚已经讲过相关的理由你一年可以生产一亿发那你现在有很多还是需要外购今天的专报书面资料和跟委员的说明已经报告过从111年到114年我们整个实战化的训练和整个教召和义务役还有我们我刚刚也说过了我刚刚也说过了"},{"start":6252.7,"end":6255.623,"text":"我們現在我們的庫存有滿山滿谷的855鋼心彈那時候美國軍援的子彈就是855鋼心彈855鋼心彈我們在訓練的時候為什麼不會用很重要的就是它對於我們的槍管會磨損它很多很多的靶場現在根本禁止使用這是第一點我必須向您報告我們現行部隊"},{"start":6279.173,"end":6281.856,"text":"經常性射擊的我們在鋼心彈的射擊的彈數裡面佔了83%一直以來我們現行的訓練裡面沒有 現行訓練裡面從過去到現在一直是使用普通彈跟鋼心彈而且鋼心彈的比例佔了87%鋼心彈是什麼鋼心彈是用在什麼地方練習"},{"start":6301.397,"end":6319.83,"text":"就是一般的靶場我們現行的靶場就是在使用並沒有為了這一次才特別去買這個為什麼過去都不用你從以前就87%都是把它講清楚一直都有在使用它毛漲一直都有在使用它是在哪些時候有使用我們過去沒有自己做對不對從民國93年以後我們過去也沒有買我們就沒有在採購都是從庫儲推好那它從哪裡來你庫儲是戰備庫儲說採購的來推好戰備庫儲是哪裡來的"},{"start":6331.791,"end":6332.618,"text":"在93年以前採購的"},{"start":6333.595,"end":6336.796,"text":"93年以前採購的數量可以用到我們110幾年所以我們的庫儲戰備其實非常多是嗎報告這個詳細的數量我們現在還有我們現在要釐清的就是這個已經很多包括美國其實他都不用了可是這個85我們的我必須容我跟您報告M85A1也是我們積極爭取的一個彈藥但是目前"},{"start":6361.781,"end":6378.795,"text":"是沒有管制出口 失色管制出口所以我們目前在這個鋼芯彈裡面我們最高的就是能用到M85鋼芯彈用在什麼地方的練習設計用在什麼地方 參謀長不要只說你都有把比較具體的隨便舉例說出來現行的部隊 舉例幾個任何駐地基地和三軍聯訓我們所停領的彈藥現行就是普通彈 鋼芯彈這兩種"},{"start":6390.306,"end":6396.49,"text":"按照現在的資料統計近三年5.56公里的步槍彈每年平均訊號5367萬餘發普通彈是860萬餘發鋼心彈就4506萬發就是剛剛參謀長講的佔到83%"},{"start":6408.957,"end":6417.1,"text":"過去的來源是什麼因為部長如果我們每年你現在從93年開始一直到現在每年有4000多萬發你用的都是鋼心彈可是我們卻從來沒有採購過我們也從來沒有做過原來111年的時候至少現在資料顯示111年的時候還只有2340萬發嘛萬餘發嘛所以它這個訓量就一直增加嘛"},{"start":6440.595,"end":6446.129,"text":"2340萬餘發我現在要說的 如果妳再往前推我想我們可以再把資料找來妳要不要說明一下"},{"start":6448.604,"end":6466.782,"text":"委員好 我是彈藥處處長跟委員做個說明我們之前在100年左右我們國軍的這個子彈至少有大概五六億左右那後續接著因為裁軍的因為一些關係我們這子彈是超量的時間的關係我只要你們具體的我簡單的講第一"},{"start":6469.404,"end":6478.17,"text":"我們鋼芯彈過去舊線從來沒有自己生產過對不對我們從90年之後沒有再買但是我們以前大概有三四億發三四億發用了十幾年你的意思好這樣"},{"start":6484.701,"end":6501.314,"text":"90年以前有買過然後美國也有軍援我們現在在訓練的時候大家都是在什麼地方使用我很可能有一些誤解我們這些鋼心彈有些已經都超過差不多30年那你再不把它做社訓推號的話它接下來就要報廢所以我們在"},{"start":6503.736,"end":6507.419,"text":"10年前大概都是以一成左右來做這個推號沒關係 我們用邏輯來講嘛你今天說那個有的都已經超過30年所以那個不能用可是你這幾年全部都沒有突然在今年才開始有而且你的價格非常高而且同時跟我們的火藥同時一起對外採購我們要強調的是"},{"start":6528.897,"end":6532.781,"text":"第一這個是我們的新產線是可以自己生產的你今天如果你的訓量要增加我們自己的產線也可以生產這個鋼芯彈這是第一個它不是只能生產普通彈它只是彈頭轉換而已所以我們的新產線是可以生產鋼芯彈如果我們真的有這樣的需求的時候"},{"start":6550.7,"end":6556.462,"text":"第二個我們所有的武器裝備我們其實是更老舊的為什麼大家不用鋼心彈剛剛我們提到一個很重要的因素它會對我們的槍管造成磨損這個855並不會對槍管造成過度的磨耗因為它本身的糖壓跟它跟您所說的那個A1是不一樣你說你現在的回答跟大家的認知不一樣你去從因為我們現時使用的就是855鋼心彈沒關係你現在"},{"start":6577.128,"end":6584.174,"text":"那你855鋼型彈已經用很多嘛我現在要的 確切的這樣的資料參謀長請你 你是陸軍參謀長855跟855A1那855A1比那個優秀的地方在哪裡第一個它本身沒有安全第二個它後面的對重我再請教一個問題好了訓練的時候你為什麼不用普通彈"},{"start":6601.772,"end":6604.674,"text":"因為一個6塊4塊多算6塊好了一個6塊然後一個你們訂了18塊8你在訓練為什麼不用普通彈沒有說訓練不能用普通彈我們整個一切的採購我們一切的戰備存量參謀長告訴我們為什麼你在訓練不是用普通彈我們訓練的很多彈藥必須要從戰備來推耗以節約這個攻堂和避免再做廢彈的處理"},{"start":6627.751,"end":6651.25,"text":"它的價格是它的三倍請告訴我們推號我們可以理解可是你的普通蛋一定比鋼芯蛋多得多因為你從過去到現在你生產的都是普通蛋庫存的普通蛋量是比鋼芯蛋還少所以我們剛剛也報告了在普通蛋我們推號完畢之後我們為了平站一致和為了能夠有較佳的貫穿力我們會採購鋼芯蛋所以你的鋼芯蛋是要來"},{"start":6657.219,"end":6665.495,"text":"做戰備儲存的戰備儲存可是你在採購的時候你是說要訓練喔沒有報告在預算書表裡面是講戰備儲存及教育訓練用彈補充"},{"start":6669.727,"end":6677.649,"text":"你的採購書公告採購上面說的是訓練的你們自己再去看清楚所以其實我們就是還是回過頭來我們要知道的為什麼我們的產線沒有辦法自己生產因為如果你要做到生產鋼芯彈也沒有問題可是你卻要外購應該要告訴大家我們的生產線有沒有問題報委員應該就我的需求來說我先不談生產"},{"start":6698.134,"end":6719.879,"text":"今天如果在國會的殿堂上面參謀長沒關係你已經解釋了今天如果在國會的殿堂上面這個都是有記錄的如果有人公然說謊未來是不是大家要負起這樣的責任都可以嘛所以我們希望你再回去查查一下"},{"start":6720.859,"end":6724.741,"text":"M855鋼心彈對我們的武器裝備會不會造成損耗他的壽命是不是會減短這是很普通的常識因為M855A1是美方現在全面要的我們要第一個提醒是我們不要"},{"start":6740.391,"end":6749.375,"text":"去幫人家清庫存第二個我們自己能做的因為你每次都說要國防自主當你花了五十幾億又增加二十幾億去增加這些生產線到現在還沒有辦法做出我們需求的彈藥這個問題到底出在哪裡這個可能陸續後面還要再追蹤我們現在要講的是你講得很清楚嘛等它生產的線擴線以後我們就有嘛"},{"start":6763.3,"end":6768.064,"text":"那現在國軍的部分他現在有一個比較急增的一個需求他要去把它這個補充戰備存量跟做教育訓練的需求所以這個我想這個就是一個部長既然你又要再講我們再來說好了"},{"start":6779.552,"end":6783.874,"text":"我們過去的戰備存量我們因為我們要建廠所以其實我們沒有賣出去我們把它用在戰備就是我們的戰備用量還有我們的訓量那時候所以我們沒有在外就是沒有把它賣出去所以那就是在估計我們的戰備存量"},{"start":6799.742,"end":6814.32,"text":"部長如果像你剛剛說的那個理由都不是現在應該有的理由我們現在講的是我們的新產線照理都應該要能夠馬上生產我們自給自足不然我們就不用增加這個啊今天你如果因為多了一些義務役我們現在的國軍是減少的"},{"start":6817.944,"end":6833.079,"text":"然後你說我們那個戰備存量跟我們的那個訓練的彈藥是不足的這是第一點矛盾第二個我們自己能做一直強調明明我們自己能做用到了我們的戰備存量所以我們要先去補戰備存量"},{"start":6833.78,"end":6839.184,"text":"所以現在有一個比較急的採購嗎部長那是他們跟你說的嘛我就說他的戰備存量他每年都在計算嘛他以前就已經都補足了所以他沒有賣出去嘛他以前每年都有賣給其他國家他甚至賣出5億發以前的用戰量沒有那麼高嘛報告委員我必須再報告一點因為我們現在戰備對於庫儲基準的調整是提升的"},{"start":6855.316,"end":6882.229,"text":"所以并不能用以前那这个提升的比例我不方便在这里公开讲下去可以跟委员报告它是提升相当大的因为我们不能仰赖作战的时候才去考量到这个紧急的生产或是外援那那个整个是不太可能所以我们是提升了战备的满足率我们再提醒一次我们花了很多的钱好几十亿我们盖了新产线就是为了要增加我们的制弹量这是第一点"},{"start":6883.129,"end":6894.361,"text":"第二個我們如果是要增加我們的訓練用蛋那你應該用的是普通蛋你即使我們普通蛋去年編了大概4000多萬的預算4億多然後要買4000多萬發"},{"start":6901.795,"end":6929.401,"text":"事實上好像也沒有足額的提供所以如果像這樣子普通彈是訓練用的你的戰備彈是另外的考量這個部分我們再次提醒如果說你們用這個沒有辦法好好的解釋我覺得這後續可能還會衍生更大的問題就這個部分提供詳細的資訊我們下去會會同相關單位到委員辦公室向您做完整的說明確定的時間是今年 延到今年九月"},{"start":6931.838,"end":6944.223,"text":"5.563月其他的9月全部都可以如期你們去年也是很拍胸脯保證12月報告委員我記得我來這段時間沒有跟委員拍過胸脯因為我們這是按照委協書來的"},{"start":6945.677,"end":6970.593,"text":"不是你們沒有拍過胸脯是你們之前已經對外講然後在報告上面也講了就是說可以生產一億發的這個子彈所以今天時間關係就是我們剛剛提到的就這個部分是到底是誰下定決心我們剛剛剛開始提到的包括火藥跟子彈都是有人強調要外購這些東西都是明明我們自己能做的我們自己能做的然後品質還不錯的價格又有優勢的我們偏偏自己要選擇外購"},{"start":6974.756,"end":6979.797,"text":"有些武器裝備我們自己不會做的卻硬要做所以就這個部分包括我們延宕我們的戰力因為高雄市政府事實上就是往後延了這跟疫情沒有關係因為疫情2023年就結束了現在已經2026年了所以就這個部分我們要好好的釐清每一項如果影響我們的戰力到底要怎麼追究責任這個可能所有的今天在場的各位都要負起這樣的責任 謝謝"},{"start":7001.721,"end":7005.322,"text":"最後補充一句我們的那個前陣營區是有償撥用371億我知道是有償撥用你是賠錢的包括你的土屋包括那個是一個精華區耶人家給你人家給你你如果要這樣子說有償撥用可能還要再去算一算那個到底是賠錢"},{"start":7022.988,"end":7040.119,"text":"還是賺錢好不好你的生殖基金本來應該用在武器裝備彈藥的你們有些把它都拿去挪作他用或者在這個時間上面挪作他用就是像這樣賠錢就是了所以這個部分我們還可以陸續再檢討謝謝好謝謝馬委員發言我們下面請這個王地宇委員發言好謝謝"},{"start":7060.156,"end":7064.717,"text":"謝謝主席看起來我們今天時間很充足可以來慢慢問先請顧部長陳建億參謀長也請一同準備局我覺得剛剛有些問題一直你們被打斷沒辦法完整回答我想釐清一下我想國人也關心大家都要清晰這個事情第一個"},{"start":7084.068,"end":7097.976,"text":"鋼心彈到底有沒有在訓練的時候用有沒有在用 簡單回答包括有 而且數量大於普通彈你把精準的數字念一下剛才我聽部長講嘛 4000多萬發嘛我們在講是年度吧"},{"start":7099.781,"end":7104.222,"text":"來 部長請說每年的訊號是5367餘萬發普通彈是860萬4763萬4763發 佔17%鋼芯彈是4506萬7567發在83% 這應該是在講這個是具體數據 近三年"},{"start":7124.346,"end":7151.308,"text":"我覺得我們現在討論的問題是基本的科學問題什麼叫科學問題有就是有 沒有就是沒有是就是 不是就不是鋼心彈在我們現在每年年度的訓練裡面占比83%是4000多萬發一年代表我們訓練的實彈射擊的用量相當高而第二個我要請教的是那鋼心彈這樣用槍管會不會損壞不過我要先講一個基本概念所有的子彈經過槍管都會有耗損"},{"start":7153.866,"end":7168.217,"text":"所有的子彈經過都有耗損我們該真正要問的問題是不同的子彈經過的這個barrel這個槍管的耗損有沒有比人家高所以鋼心彈的使用有沒有增加耗損率"},{"start":7169.738,"end":7188.908,"text":"應該就兩個面向來說第一個它的結構性它雖然是鋼芯彈但是它它整個的鋼芯是外面是包覆包覆銅皮的是跟一般彈一樣的那基本上也跟剛剛委員所說的一樣每一把槍它的不管是炮也好槍也好它都有槍管壽命但是"},{"start":7190.028,"end":7211.514,"text":"鋼心彈它基本上不同於普通彈的另外一個優點就是它對於射程較遠的精度會比較高那基本上這也是我們希望能夠達到的一個訓練目標因為我們現在的訓練實彈化也開始要裝瞄準鏡了所以要打比較遠它距離遠的精度比較高但因為它外面包了一層銅皮所以磨損是差不多的不過我好奇就是說"},{"start":7212.954,"end":7232.139,"text":"這一個訓練用這麼大量鋼芯彈我們剛才講大家如果基本的軍武常識就知道所有的戰車炮所有的榴彈炮所有的槍管都會告訴你最大使用限度是幾發以後就要換一支新的所以其實都有耗損而耗損跟每個彈種之間的耗損的比較才是我們成本的考量"},{"start":7232.619,"end":7247.316,"text":"所以鮑委員我補充一點所以就是說每一門炮或每一把槍它所設計的這個槍管壽命 炮管壽命基本上我們到底有沒有耗損我們應該再從我們實際上更換了多少槍 炮管來回推其實跟槍管跟炮管的製造的品質也有相關"},{"start":7254.185,"end":7274.317,"text":"為什麼人家的榴彈砲37倍進來可以跑打那麼遠我們打不遠其實有時候不是彈的問題有時候是砲管的問題砲管的品質像最近那個中國的戰車砲在泰國的邊境塘炸那就是品質問題不能怪炸彈啦好 所以鋼心彈有大量的用那我現在要問啊那我們自己會做為什麼要外購"},{"start":7276.701,"end":7304.295,"text":"我們剛一直聽到核心命題自己會做為什麼要外購剛剛也有報告過了這個在來 彈藥說明跟委員做一個說明就是這幾年因為恢復EUE增招 然後那個較招包含我們去年也核定了C型量的一個數量的提升所以導致有整個戰備存量跟教育訓練用彈的這個數量都增加增加的比例多少"},{"start":7305.09,"end":7326.254,"text":"增加將近快這個我聽起來是快一倍多吧我剛才光你們聽就是從2000多萬發現在變5000多萬發嘛大概成長了2點多倍嘛那個是訓練的部分戰備的部分也提升那我想這個部分可能不宜戰備我尊重有些軍事機密我們不提我想彈藥處這邊應該要說明的就是說過去以來的"},{"start":7330.151,"end":7347.742,"text":"一個戰備存量之所以夠那現在不夠那大概過去以來應該是都沒有在採購的部分我們當初在106年軍備局要205場要遷場之前有問過我們那時候評估一年的社訓量大概2000多萬而已"},{"start":7348.837,"end":7359.384,"text":"那這前四年就突然間整個就暴升到大概五六千那這個等於說這四年打下來已經幾乎是我八年的一個訊號量那我們的產線開始量產了沒產線現在我們自己國內的鋼芯彈的產線開始生產了沒"},{"start":7366.616,"end":7381.509,"text":"現在就是剛剛提到了115年的3月我們的這個既有的應該是分現有的跟新的我都會同時跟委員報告我舊縣也一樣請中科院都是包含在合約裡面"},{"start":7383.311,"end":7398.588,"text":"開始量產了沒還是逐步開始現在逐步用小批量在測試所以所謂的一億發的產能其實還沒到那個數字嘛對 3月份3月份才會達到嘛好 剛才這邊整理起來就是因為我們的義務役從4個月恢復到一年期"},{"start":7399.369,"end":7417.641,"text":"我們的訓騎從五週變成八週所以訓練加上實彈的話以前像我們EWE的時候大概打六發也幾發現在你們打了七八百發又打很多輪因為我兒子剛退伍他們打了很多輪也就是說訓練用的彈量非常大那大的具體數據剛才也講了五千多萬發"},{"start":7419.182,"end":7447.624,"text":"那鋼心彈有沒有在用 有啊用了83% 4000多萬發啊然後當你訓練的用吃到戰備美軍援外吃到戰備一定馬上去採購補足戰備所以美國才會跟日本買愛國者飛彈嘛去補他的戰備嘛否則美國自己會做愛國者飛彈幹嘛跟日本買就是他援助烏克蘭他的戰備量吃到了以色列援助外的部分吃到了所以他要增加所以這一題其實是一個科學問題"},{"start":7449.065,"end":7474.876,"text":"需求量跟使用量跟戰備量三個數據ABC去加總就知道了倒是有數價格的比較我覺得有三個不同這個我就不問你們了2005年當時是美軍代工合約六塊錢那個嘛2005年那我要請教各位都將領都是軍事專家一顆子彈裡面的火藥用在哪裡他是不是只有敵火跟發射藥還有沒有第三種火藥"},{"start":7476.581,"end":7485.169,"text":"就是敵火跟發射藥而已就發射藥所以我如果說沒有美軍提供的是敵火跟發射藥我們國內製造我們還要出火藥"},{"start":7489.676,"end":7516.613,"text":"所以我不好意思講啦其實火藥發射藥那個發射藥跟抵火就是火藥的家種所以2005年20多年前當時的代工合約就是代工材料是他們提供的製成他來協助的那我們那個代工費的價格跟我去買那個最終成品的價格的比較基本上這是謬誤的比較第二個2005年到2025年物料成本成長了多少"},{"start":7517.293,"end":7543.648,"text":"用這樣相差20年份比較這也是一個謬誤第三個都叫子彈不代表價格都一樣就像都叫汽車品牌不同型號不同價格也不同所以這三個比較基礎的不同去說我們不應該採購怎麼樣其實我們不管是戰備需求或者訓練需求這些採購都可以去根據科學問題去驗證合不合理所以這題我們把它打住我現在要問你"},{"start":7544.508,"end":7558.137,"text":"美國曾經用PDA總統撥款特權有無償提供了我們一些裝備當然這有一些涉及機密我就不細問那個部長這兩天我看媒體有揭露我們的那個"},{"start":7560.759,"end":7582.792,"text":"護衛營就是飛彈部車的護衛營單位或者海軍陸戰隊有開始使用美國援助的M4A1的步槍這個我看媒體有報了這個確實有在使用了好像一些陸軍海軍陸戰隊有在用這一個M4A1的步槍這是美軍現役的步槍我第一個請教的我不會問你數量因為這數量是機敏"},{"start":7584.11,"end":7607.958,"text":"就我了解美國的M4A1它的瞄準鏡是標配為什麼我看你們出示的相片裡面我們的國軍弟兄使用的M4A1沒有瞄準鏡是相片錯了還是你們沒有提供報告委員它那個是執行的時候沒有把它放上去事實上軍援的那個部分它還是援助了一部分的那個快瞄鏡"},{"start":7608.738,"end":7625.171,"text":"有瞄準鏡有一比一嗎有有一批那就不是部分就一比一所以美國美國提供給我們的M4A1步槍是有瞄準鏡對那你說他們在執行任務拍那張相片的時候是沒有裝上去沒有裝上去那什麼時候會裝因為當初他"},{"start":7628.769,"end":7653.705,"text":"配給我們就是援助的那個瞄準鏡的部分並不是1比1的援助不是1比1不是1比1所以我們就針對後備戰力提升的這個部分以及這些因為我記得我質詢過顧部長在這邊承諾包含我們T112我們都希望因為現在我們要打得準打得遠嘛才回到剛才剛才那一題嘛要打得準打得遠我們花大錢買的飛彈導彈都要又遠又準"},{"start":7654.105,"end":7678.595,"text":"那我們每一個單兵各一個步槍兵所使用的武器當然我們也希望它能夠又遠又準所以瞄準鏡幾乎在美軍是標配所以我們T1122也謝謝部長那時候才是就是全部都要配上光學相關的瞄準鏡那M4是好槍啦M4A1是美軍現役在用的槍所以它如果有搭配一部分的瞄準鏡我們未來會不會想辦法讓它都補上來會全部都補滿會補滿嘛"},{"start":7680.576,"end":7694.942,"text":"使用的時機點是什麼它不是都會裝在上面訓練的時候 射擊訓練的時候它就會裝上去用那在實戰的戰備的任務呢實戰戰備裡面它會依照不同的狀況去做配掛好 下一次你們再有相關的戰備"},{"start":7696.623,"end":7721.375,"text":"釋出的相片裡面讓我們看到有掛配他什麼時機要用另外古斯塔夫無後座力炮其實是算世界一流先進的反戰車炮那美國當時PDA也送了一批古斯塔夫給我們我們到底有沒有配下去用包委員這個部分可能不方便在這裡做說明理由是什麼我們軍援的部分原則上"},{"start":7723.991,"end":7744.069,"text":"有部分涉及敏感的部分我們就不會公開做說話我尊重 我的意思是說如果美國軍援的東西合我們用我們現在是擔心後勤補給跟不上那我們就要思考相關的採購跟我們的配發要一致如果不合我們用我們也應該要表達說這跟我們現在裝備有抵觸"},{"start":7745.931,"end":7766.65,"text":"而不是收了援助放在倉庫這個就不好我不知道有沒有放在倉庫如果有用是個好因為我看不管烏克蘭戰場或美軍現役古斯塔夫是一個好的裝備人家無償送給我們那表示要買也買得到那這個東西可不可以補足我們現在反裝甲的火力不足因為我們的66火箭彈效期快到了"},{"start":7767.33,"end":7791.293,"text":"紅準一也沒達標啊我們紅準二測評現在好像還沒有測完啊所以我們希望說這個火力如果是我們戰備所需求的應該要尋求這個世界一流先進給我們國軍弟兄最好的裝備我們再講一次軍事採購扶植國防產業那是第二目標第一目標是給國軍弟兄用合用好用該用的東西而不是為了扶植產業用次等品"},{"start":7792.595,"end":7802.355,"text":"這個觀念不一樣所以有好裝備要弄上去所以古斯塔夫你不方便回答有沒有使用我就不為難海馬斯上面有架一個應該是排用機槍"},{"start":7804.039,"end":7824.259,"text":"我上次看他展出的時候上面有架一頂機槍我們海馬斯的 有嘛你們架的不是美國的它標配的那種牌用機槍我看起來裝的是我們國產的那個小小的那個是自衛用的機槍所以我們是依現有的數量去做搭配對 你們現在裝在海馬斯上面就那門槍"},{"start":7825.6,"end":7854.086,"text":"跟那個車子不是一組的啦你是用我們自己世衛用的那個排用機槍吧那為什麼不裝上美國直接他也送了排用機槍給我們包委員那個我們後面針對海馬斯智慧的部分那個是分層次檢討的那在當初海馬斯的這個構案裡面我們主要的是針對火箭發射平台跟ATACM的這個部分還有精準GMLS的這個火箭去做採購"},{"start":7855.146,"end":7877.545,"text":"那後續再依照作戰需求我們事實上各個裝備我們會陸續的進行調整然後做採購我另外請教這個配付量剛才講的為什麼彈灰需求量大因為我們現在實戰化訓練然後讓兵習慣用槍這個是好事我們一直在鼓勵這件事情就我了解T1122我們的吸行量配付量我們的彈匣現在標準是"},{"start":7878.68,"end":7901.59,"text":"沒有 不只7個 應該是11個你比的跟陳建義比的就不一樣11個啦 7個是C型量啦兩個在連 兩個在贏嘛 對不對所以總共每一把步槍從過去 其實以前只配4個配4個 你以烏克蘭戰場來看少一輪子彈就用完了所以我們現在把C型量符合實戰化的需求每一個步槍兵帶7個彈匣"},{"start":7903.291,"end":7919.94,"text":"然後呢 兵營 軍營就是連根營各保存兩個所以是四個 四加七所以每一把槍配十一個所以我們的彈量要增加 彈匣也要增加而且你們是塑鋼的嘛 那個塑膠的比較好所以我們現在 我曾經在這邊要求以後不要讓部隊去省彈匣"},{"start":7921.021,"end":7936.093,"text":"你知道嗎部隊有時候槍卡彈不是槍不好是那個彈匣被敲半天彈不上來這個把它當耗損品部長我建議很多次了我們自己兵工廠生產的彈匣能不能讓我們各使用步槍的單位每一年"},{"start":7936.974,"end":7955.471,"text":"給他換30%就是我強制配下去讓你更新因為不要因為一個彈匣這麼低價的東西去影響整支槍的效能勤儉建軍是陸軍的文化你們省到那個彈匣從頭上敲 敲到桌上那子彈彈不起來就彈不起來這個不好所以我建議這彈匣定期更新你們現在有沒有這個政策"},{"start":7956.352,"end":7979.72,"text":"鮑委員有 我們除了您要求的T112每一支槍要多增加4個彈匣之外另外T勾1含以前其他的原來配附是5個我們現在要增加到11個的話要多買6個另外檢討了全軍現在所有故障的彈匣數字我就不跟您報告了這三個部分我們全部都重新檢討也編列了相關預算盡快太新了我覺得給國軍隊的裝備足夠的資源讓國軍弟兄我們不管在各項家籍"},{"start":7985.362,"end":8014.182,"text":"我們過去10年加擠調整了18次然後我們的基本的薪資調整了4次當然我們希望越多越好只要合法合憲大家來處理但是裝備要合宜我覺得這是每一個不管是士兵到將領裝備合宜是一個非常重要的事情那我就不再多佔時間我希望部長我們我一直在檢討我們的邊線比最小戰力域值以及相關的東西我還是會持續追蹤希望如果整理好出來之後給本席一份好不好那以上謝謝各位時間 謝謝"},{"start":8020.544,"end":8026.245,"text":"謝謝接下來請沈博洋上台質詢沈博洋委員不好意思謝謝主席 那有請部長請部長"},{"start":8048.051,"end":8070.885,"text":"陳委員好部長好那我因為今天還是跟這個彈藥有關係所以我想問一下國防部的意見就是說最近最主要是想要問經濟部但是我在想說問經濟部之前先問一下國防部最主要就是因為賴總統在之前在講這個國防預算七大目標的時候有特別提到要提升軍備的量能然後去帶動經濟"},{"start":8074.026,"end":8094.118,"text":"帶動經濟這件事情其實並不是國防部職業的責任它比較多是在經濟部因為今年在AI的部分經濟部有去做產促條例的修正因為彈藥跟無人機如果說也真的要納入到我們整個的國防產業來說的話我們經濟部的產促條例有沒有修正的空間"},{"start":8098.36,"end":8117.642,"text":"那我最主要這樣問的原因就是因為比如說在疫情的時候我們那時候也有這個所謂的口罩國家隊我認為口罩很重要但那時候廠商還是會有一些卻步就是因為他們就預估說可能兩三年之後這個可能就沒有什麼市場了所以你要他去設廠要去他生產他還是會有一點這個那個動機不足的問題"},{"start":8119.924,"end":8146.541,"text":"我們今天當然就是說不管是整個軍備產業的提升民間的加入確實很重要他們也是會有一點猶疑目前在產促條例跟產創條例裡面它針對AI的部分是做一些減稅什麼等等之類的措施所以我現在想問經濟部就是說有沒有這樣的一個機會但因為如果真的要這樣做我認為國防部的意見還是重要所以想問一下部長就是說"},{"start":8147.722,"end":8160.226,"text":"跟經濟部合作這件事情就是說我們去盤點我們現在要在地化我們的經濟民間的這個要來發展就是去符合這個總統講的國防帶動經濟有沒有可能經濟部那邊做一些修正我想就國防部立場我們應該跟經濟部一起協調來就這個我想我們當然"},{"start":8172.27,"end":8198.187,"text":"要強化我們的國防韌性在地的自主生產當然是很重要很重要的一個能量的建構因為有時候就是會這樣子就是說假設我們接著去問經濟部經濟部就說這個國防部可能會有意見什麼等等他還沒有這樣講所以我就想說趁今天這個機會先問一下國防部如果有機會的話我們下一次在會同經濟部討論這一個產促條例修正的時候就可以去考量"},{"start":8198.607,"end":8224.253,"text":"有沒有可能讓我們的民間加入的時候它在這一個產促條例裡面享有一定的優惠這樣的話更能夠去帶動相關的經濟發展但是倒過來講我也會擔憂一件事情就是說因為民間越來越多的加入但它又是國防的等於是帶動產業的一環我在看國外的時候他們比如說美國他們在這個國防工業基地這個DIB他們也把它納入到CI裡面"},{"start":8225.593,"end":8253.319,"text":"但是問題是一旦納入到CI有可能會變成是另外一種廠商會卻步的原因因為你一旦納入到CI它要做的事情變多了我們剛剛講我們本來是想要用產速條例的方式增加多一點誘因讓產業能夠進來結果你把它納入到CI之後可能又會變成說它的成本提高但因為世界各國的趨勢就是有可能把它納入到CI所以我想問兩個方向第一個就是它有沒有可能納入到CI這是第一個"},{"start":8254.139,"end":8278.96,"text":"那第二個就是呢如果他沒有他如果被納入了CI的話我們有沒有辦法去減緩這樣的一個憂慮比如說他可能會享有一定的比如說今天在封控的時候他的海空的運輸可能優先他在停電的時候呢他可能跟醫療院所一樣他不會被先停電就是他有沒有這樣的一些配套措施有在研擬還是說我們目前的這一個目標是先不要把他放到CI"},{"start":8281.349,"end":8293.824,"text":"我覺得放到CI的這個部分如果你要問我從未來的角度來看可能是勢必是要去做的一件事情那只是說我們現在"},{"start":8296.465,"end":8322.538,"text":"因為彈藥的部分我想我們先不論了因為我想這個不適宜再公開來說但是就無人機的這個部分我想大家會開始逐步地會興起一些主要的一些它的系統的職業整合商還有各領組件的供應鏈這個整個那這個如果成為我們"},{"start":8324.673,"end":8350.784,"text":"就是國家佔領的一個重要來源的時候這個當然會形成要如何確保它的韌性這個成為當然要成為一個討論的課題如果是這個樣子的話我個人也是認為說納入CI是有它的必要性但是就是就像剛剛講的納入到CI之後有可能會對他們來講對廠商來講它一定會有一些成本所以有什麼搭配的措施可能是在納入CI的過程當中可能需要去考量的"},{"start":8351.104,"end":8367.438,"text":"那這個部分就是我覺得這個有些事情等到之後真的開始進入到那個階段的時候我們再來討論這邊我只是先做一個提醒對 因為我稍微再講一下因為納入這個關鍵技術設施以後或者無人機成為國航供應鏈裡面重要的一款一款"},{"start":8368.138,"end":8388.807,"text":"他們就會變成要被強調要治安因為他會涉及到相關的這些因為TIL程度高到一個程度他就會有一些治安的防護那我們也要查詢他的背景所以會有一些金流然後還有人員的安全查核其實這些不只是您講的這個"},{"start":8390.587,"end":8419.223,"text":"有關列入CI之後它相關的韌性的維持包括這些應該要進行的事項都是要考慮的這個全部都是因為它就會變成屬於在軍工產業的一環裡面的時候按照美國現在相對的經驗都是對於他們都有些特殊的要求對 這個對雙方來講其實行政成本都會有增加因為我畢竟就是說我們講什麼國防要來帶動這樣的一個經濟它不能只是一個口號而已"},{"start":8419.503,"end":8439.026,"text":"所以不管是剛剛前面講的這個修法或者說後面這邊搭配的措施我們如果一開始能夠完善化的話這個帶動經濟的效益一定會更好那接下來我想問就是因為剛剛部長也有提到就是無人機就是無人產業那因為最近我看到這一個後面我待會再問就是我把它放到哪裡去了我看一下"},{"start":8441.016,"end":8464.037,"text":"沒關係 我留在這一頁好了就是因為最近我在看這個西班牙那一邊它有歐洲幾個他們自己有辦了一個會那也有歐洲幾個國家的國防部也有去與會那他們在講這一個無人機產業的時候他除了強調本來就是我們國防部有在講的真打一體什麼等等之類的這邊的應用之外他們開始在討論無人機在後勤的運用"},{"start":8465.178,"end":8491.899,"text":"那就是說因為我們之前的這個報告的內容大部分都還是在強調偵打這個部分那我覺得這當然是好事因為這是我們的作戰需求但因為就像所有的作戰作戰都是要看後勤那後勤這邊的不管是去中心化讓大家的人這個人力的耗損減低他們已經開始在討論這個無人機在後勤這方面的使用這個我們台灣很多救災的經驗其實也有可能是有重合的地方所以不知道往這一"},{"start":8492.219,"end":8497.114,"text":"現在在這一個方向我們針對無人產業這個部分針對後勤的部分國防部有沒有什麼規劃"},{"start":8498.807,"end":8523.053,"text":"現在主要是看無人機的一個技術是不是一定有具備一定的技術能力那這個當然有因為它跟增打的要求其實是完全不同的對 它要自主導航 長時間滯空那其中還有一個最重要就是那個負載 負載能力如果相關的這個負載的能力不高的話那光運載"},{"start":8525.498,"end":8543.528,"text":"一箱的彈藥可能就超過它的負荷所以我想這個部分都屬於我們後續就是說我們應該是要來進行考量也要來提升這樣子的一個負載的能力"},{"start":8544.468,"end":8560.659,"text":"如果說技術能夠到位負載能力能夠到位的話我想我們不會排除這樣子的一個作為後勤的運用因為我覺得國際這樣的討論應該都是有它的意義存在我們現在在很多的國家也都有軍事協調"},{"start":8562.04,"end":8584.265,"text":"那如果这个之前我也询问过了如果不管是人力的增加我们专业的人才能够在国际多参加这样的一些会议然后把一些新的事情带回来讨论这对我们来讲一定有一定有很大的注意因为它跟前面我们刚刚讲的经济的这个带动也有很大的关系那我最后一个再问就是说跟我们的后背有关就是因为114年我们不是开始有这个后背战事的这个实施做法吗"},{"start":8584.775,"end":8603.822,"text":"那這個因為後備戰士的招募狀況當然並沒有到非常好那裡面呢就是我遇到幾個案例就是說因為它裡面有一個好像是12年還是10年我記得它有一個時間的限制就是說你今天志願役退了下來然後12年之內等等之類的可以去進入到這個後備戰士"},{"start":8605.382,"end":8621.194,"text":"那我就遇到滿多人跟我講說就是他已經超過了那個年限了但是他的專長或者說他的實力他認為自己是可以來做這件事情所以在這個年限上面的這個調整或者說資格限制這邊呢現在有沒有過嚴的問題還是說其實跟這個無關我們的招募狀況其實是別的問題"},{"start":8626.072,"end":8647.54,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得是這樣子就是說後備戰士是禮拜六禮拜天來那麼如果是陸軍的一般部隊的話如果不能夠融入編制從事相關的任務的話禮拜六禮拜天來"},{"start":8648.888,"end":8666.054,"text":"坦白講只會增加一個負擔但沒有辦法所以如果看看我們可以思考看看是不是在如果以援兵援單位的一個概念來看的話在演習的時候是不是可以把它類似一個"},{"start":8667.168,"end":8689.461,"text":"鞭死動員的一個概念然後把它召回我想這可能會符合任務的需求第二個就是說有一些高專的比如說它是修復的或者是像飛行的我們現在已經都在檢討修復的能量如果它就屬於高專人才"},{"start":8690.982,"end":8711.6,"text":"他如果要維持他的一個修復的一個能力那願意加入那我覺得這也可以那還有包括一些像水中爆破啦兩棲徵收啦這些我想融入到部隊的新的一個觀念新的武器然後新的"},{"start":8713.142,"end":8730.622,"text":"這個操作的模式等等我覺得這個是可以來討論那飛行員的部分我們也在檢討當中所以我想這個都會納入我們後續精進的方案好 那這個之後我們再來看檢討看看他要怎麼去精進因為我們遇到的就是他也是支援與退"},{"start":8731.022,"end":8752.951,"text":"所以它是融入是沒問題但它可能連線不符合但它實力又符合所以針對這樣的狀況我們能不能夠讓真正願意的人資格也符合的專長也符合忠誠度也沒問題的他能夠進入到這個系統這個對我們未來應該是很有幫助對 我們已經在我們討論過一兩次了所以我們或許會再討論好 那我之後再來追這一題謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝"},{"start":8758.7,"end":8761.421,"text":"接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們有請顧立雄顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":8782.885,"end":8797.386,"text":"議員好部長好那我想一開始的時候呢還是來跟您關心一下這個F16墜毀的這個事件那因為有一些內容在記者會的時候沒有被詢問到那後續呢也有不少的這個國軍弟兄在問"},{"start":8798.107,"end":8814.432,"text":"所以我想先問一下有關於這個MMC的訊號異常那有報休記錄這個部分在1月7號的記者會上面有向外界說明說清查近半年的情況是沒有任何MMC的故障情形的"},{"start":8815.083,"end":8834.627,"text":"那麼呢 會討論這個是因為非官在試試之前有呼叫說這個MMC有故障的問題所以大家針對MMC的部分呢那就有在做詢問嘛那所以第一個問題我想說為什麼我們是清查會用半年為期而不是一年為期啊就是說這個時間當時是媒體問的嗎還是說我們自己訂定的呢"},{"start":8839.427,"end":8861.387,"text":"包委員我們並沒有去設定這個三個月半年那一年兩年其實我們從兩年的資料都去撈全機隊的這個故障我們都有去撈他的資料兩年都撈都沒有嗎可是我這邊看二月不是沒有不是沒有包委員那我問一下這一台這一台飛機在二月的時候是不是最起碼有三次的MMC的派休為公啊"},{"start":8862.247,"end":8884.923,"text":"派工維修六拐洞洞這架飛機就是從出廠他是去年十月以後才出廠到失事當天沒有一次MMC的負擔所以他沒有任何一次MMC的維修紀錄所以這個派修他可能是在其他的F16上面有MMC的維修紀錄但不是這一架其他的飛機"},{"start":8886.463,"end":8902.629,"text":"陸陸續續都有這個現象因為整個機隊一定會有MNC故障但是針對這一架飛機從出廠之後到失事當天沒有一次總共有35次的維修紀錄沒有一次MNC故障所以我剛剛講的2月這個部分它可能是針對其他的飛機那不是在這一架嗎"},{"start":8903.809,"end":8920,"text":"那但是我另外要問一下那導致這個抬頭顯示器多功能螢幕上面會有無法顯示或是黑屏的狀況應該不是只有MNC失效才會發生它也有其他的可能失靈的這個相關的一些配件都有可能嗎"},{"start":8920.58,"end":8938.278,"text":"那其實因為他呼叫的時候談到了M&C所以我們特別關注一下那M&C的在這個包含這架以及整個機隊的這個維修情況是如何那也謝謝您剛剛做說明那我問一下這個EGI也就是我們的這個整合的GPS整合式的GPS"},{"start":8939.119,"end":8967.481,"text":"它在發生異常的時候是不是也一樣會有無法取得正確的導航資訊的問題那比方說在HUD的這種數位地圖上面那可能會有不合理的跳動跟飄移對於我們這種在能見度差夜晚淨雲的海上環境上面產生風險的問題包委員會那我問一下1月4號的時候就這架飛機有沒有派攻EGIFL有有對不對是"},{"start":8968.462,"end":8979.222,"text":"好 我再講一下墜海的前兩天1月4號的時候有派工整合式的GPS就是這一架六七東東 對吧是那所以說上面因為"},{"start":8980.966,"end":9008.366,"text":"新上位他是回報說他的高度一直往下掉那沒有狀態可以參考改正所以未來我們等到一段時間之後那在進行這個實事調查的時候除了剛才講的因為他呼叫的內容講到MMC嘛但是在EGI的部分在墜落的兩天前有發生過EGI的fail有做過派工維修那這方面會不會進行著手調查"},{"start":9008.946,"end":9024.586,"text":"會 包委員我們調查的方向針對它的故障情況會影響到導航的部分我們都是我們偵查的一個重點調查的一個重點那我相信我很謝謝你很坦誠的在這邊講因為我覺得大家對於這件事情的態度都是一樣的"},{"start":9025.307,"end":9047.155,"text":"那有問題我們就找出問題那能夠坦誠來談到就是說每一架飛機它的這個情況那我覺得這個態度也會讓更多現在在飛的這些飛官他感到是安心的所以非常感謝把這個事情講出來那也希望接下來的相關的調查我們都是用這樣正確的態度去面對它"},{"start":9048.135,"end":9068.315,"text":"那再來 謝謝 謝謝您那接下來我要問一下是因為我們今天談到的是這個軍備的部分嘛那有關於彈藥籌貨的規劃我們一定是支持國防自主的那在國內能夠生產大量而且便宜的彈藥產能呢 這個能夠符合我們的戰備需求一定是重要的"},{"start":9068.695,"end":9090.285,"text":"不過我們知道在產線上面其實都是這個約聘僱的人員在做這些組裝啊一些這個處理嘛所以今天想要特別跟您談一下我們的這個約聘僱人員的這個問題首先這個我想要問一下部長我們國軍的約聘僱人員您知不知道有最低薪資的相關規定是如何規定的"},{"start":9091.4,"end":9117.359,"text":"有需要協助的話可以請相關的單位來給部長一些協助但你們可能走路速度要快一點好不好因為時間很有限我問的問題是我們約聘僱在國軍裡面的最低薪資的規定其實呢是所有中央政府的這個約聘僱人員都是一樣的一致的來請說跟委員報告目前的"},{"start":9118.445,"end":9132.657,"text":"相關的薪資規定都是按照這個跟一般公共交通器官是一樣一樣啊一樣怎樣啊我是問你怎樣不是一樣啊當然一樣啊廢話能不一樣嗎"},{"start":9135.45,"end":9153.462,"text":"相關的資料我們請志願司來說明一下來說明一下吧我剩兩分鐘的時間我還有很多問題要問你們來目前我們孤兒的話薪水大概是三萬八千多元三萬八千多元我想的是他的這個規定沒關係我們直接看"},{"start":9154.929,"end":9175.017,"text":"我們呢113年12月20號行政院就有發函國防部我剛剛為什麼要問是因為你沒有收到這個函式的通知所以我才這樣問不然其實我都會直接講114年你可以看到約僱工友約用人員等基層員工他的月薪應該要高於最低薪資的1.1倍"},{"start":9177.339,"end":9200.654,"text":"1.1倍所以呢我算給大家聽在這個2026年之前呢應該是31449元那在今年開始的話是32450元那您剛講到38000我很懷疑各位知不知道在我們的我們先不跳下一張在我們的軍備局裡面401場跟205場真的大家有約聘過人員由領到38000元的"},{"start":9207.018,"end":9233.503,"text":"薪資嗎 約聘雇人員來講一下好不好我們約聘雇人員的薪資是三萬八千元嗎如剛剛所述各位委員報告我們生產製造中心他第一個他每個月報的他每個月就是領的剛剛我們行政院所規定的約聘用另外他有額外的生產獎金每年最高可以領到六個月以當年他的盈利每年 那他什麼時候發的"},{"start":9235.063,"end":9263.035,"text":"中秋節發一次過年發一次不要開我玩笑了隔壁是律師耶你要不要問一下律師的意見這個是在講說我每一個月的月薪你跟我講說他中秋節的時候會發獎金這是兩件事情喔對 這是兩件事對 所以呢所以我要問的事情是我們在401場 205場大家領的是剛剛所說的38000元嗎有沒有領到最低薪資的1.1倍呢來 我給你看一下薪資單好不好"},{"start":9263.991,"end":9292.309,"text":"往下 來這是我們軍備局的401場的薪資單114年的8月剛剛告訴大家了算下來應該要領到多少錢才合理31449元是最低薪資吧可是他的這個勞保級距你可以看他的薪資單上面是30050不要告訴我只差一點這是合法的問題我們國家做事情要合法再來剛剛很多人在問的205場"},{"start":9293.83,"end":9317.899,"text":"領多少錢呢 有兩萬九千五百九十塊錢的也有三萬一千零一十元的沒有領到第一沒有所謂剛剛講到的大家都領到三萬八喔第二他低於行政院函式的我們的約聘僱人員要是最低基本薪資的1.1倍所以這部分應該我強烈的要求必須要調整部長請問一下您的意見"},{"start":9319.679,"end":9340.802,"text":"因為我您的這個資料我今天是第一次看到才了解我想我們還要下去了解一下相關的這些薪資的規範以及他們實際發放薪資的一個狀況其實我告訴你行政院早就發函給軍備局了所以部長您在這個事情不需要看到薪資單才要知道來我們下一張團影片在"},{"start":9343.376,"end":9356.993,"text":"114年的1月22號的時候我剛剛的表頭是主旨他發這個函給這個我們軍備局講說你的基層員工月薪要高於最低工資的1.1倍"},{"start":9358.695,"end":9376.208,"text":"那他為什麼會發這個函呢你可以看到第三點這邊他就有要求你們要檢視修正所屬聘僱人員勞動契約工作項目跟薪資以高於最低工資1.1倍的標準來給薪嘛"},{"start":9377.318,"end":9392.038,"text":"那所以什麼意思什麼意思很清楚的是其實其實你們並不是內部不知道這個情況不然不會發這個寒所以我要告訴您的事情是說這個已經好一陣子了所以"},{"start":9393.188,"end":9417.649,"text":"合法合理符合最低的要求的這個規定1.1倍他應該要讓我們每一個場的同仁都能夠領到而不是告訴我說因為中秋節有發獎金他不對喔我們這裡寫的是月薪喔不是含獎金之後喔所以不要拿這個東西來搪塞我那我希望可以好好的下去檢討"},{"start":9418.63,"end":9426.524,"text":"因為約聘僱人員他確實他們是我們產線上面也非常重要的國軍非常重要的其中一份子部長可以嗎"},{"start":9427.725,"end":9445.905,"text":"因為這個星之每月的月星的星之結構你剛剛秀出來我還不是很了解所以我想我下去了解它整個月星的星之的結構你需要了解一下結構還有就是有不會只有這一兩位啦我剛剛秀出的有一個人兩個人401的兩個人跟205的兩個人嘛"},{"start":9449.068,"end":9472.328,"text":"光是我秀出的薪資單就是有四位了所以實際上我所了解的情況是超過的那我沒有薪資單我不會拿上來當成證據來在這裡跟您質詢但是有更多的約聘僱的人員他們是真的沒有領到1.1倍但他們就反正也就吞下去了想說反正兩萬九就兩萬九好了但是我覺得這是不對的事情"},{"start":9472.768,"end":9496.144,"text":"所以請你們全面的去做一個檢討請問這個檢討需要多少時間能夠給我一個正確的答覆跟委員報告委員講的我們回去會做檢視因為我們的所有的基金聘僱的都是以盈餘的大水庫來支應我們給你兩個禮拜的時間我們來做分析來跟你做回報好 兩個禮拜嘛好 謝謝麻煩檢討一下謝謝主席好 謝謝"},{"start":9501.269,"end":9505.051,"text":"謝謝許曉欣委員的發言現在請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢主席在場的委員先進列席的任務即將上官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請顧部長跟我們資源規劃司的藍司長請顧部長還有藍司長"},{"start":9533.783,"end":9558.335,"text":"市長 中委好部長好 市長好部長你應該是我們中華民國歷任國防部長當中歷練最豐富的你當過單產會的主委你過去的專業是律師你也當過金管會的主委是不是這樣所以你現在當著國防部長你很多領域都了解包括投資理財你也了解那請教一下你個人的投資理財該不會只有存定存吧"},{"start":9560.478,"end":9583.166,"text":"跟委員報告 我當律師的時候比較有投資理財的我了解 是的 是的我當了金管會後呢就不能做了不但不能做 而且還被限制算了 應該不能夠好 那我這樣子有很多限制所以後來就沒有再沒有再參與好 TISA你了解吧 TISA"},{"start":9583.88,"end":9603.139,"text":"是 這個個人的一個理財的專務目前今晚會主委在推動的幫國家的國民增加他的這樣的一個資產的投資好 那我們來看一下其實我之前上上週我問了我們的副部長我說對於短一期的志願役士官兵他們退伍後是需要協助的因為怎麼樣"},{"start":9603.84,"end":9615.815,"text":"因為他還很年輕可能30歲就退了退了之後他要轉業或者創業他有第二春 對不對所以目前我們對於這個第二類的退出一官兵就是154年以上未滿10年的是不是發給一次退伍金"},{"start":9618.252,"end":9644.207,"text":"没错吧 简单回答好 但是我们知道我们国军目前的基层的官兵短一期的志愿式官兵很重要他们人才招募进来之后奉献了可能没有超过10年的青春之后正当他们年壮的时候的30岁他们就要出去面对什么转业 就业或者是升学所以我们给他急难救助 法律咨询 寡惠补助职业训练 就业津贴等等等"},{"start":9644.887,"end":9668.101,"text":"但是這裡面對他的轉業或再就業有沒有幫助呢部長我們來往下看來因為我剛剛說明你的資歷很豐富你看我們目前國家對於人民的職業保障是什麼如果他退伍了他參加勞保他根據勞退條例有僱主提撥6%這你應該了解他也可以自提而且這是複利計算"},{"start":9669.582,"end":9692.062,"text":"他如果退伍了他結甲歸田他擔任農民我們上週才通過了農民退休儲金條例我們過去農民退休儲金必須你有參加農保但是我們短一期的志願役士官兵他有從農但因為他領了退伍金他不能適用老農津貼他有時候也不去加農保"},{"start":9693.183,"end":9706.083,"text":"但是我們上星期我們改了我們讓他可以加入農退農退是農退是什麼假設說基本工資三萬你可以每個月存三千政府幫你補三千未來更好"},{"start":9707.288,"end":9730.785,"text":"過去是1比1現在是1比1.5政府出6成你出4成這是我們第二類農民他退伍結甲歸天后他可以選擇勞工他可以選擇農民都是從他退伍後才開始但是我們目前的陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例的23條你只要3年以上未滿20年折抵現在年資只給退伍金部長你了解嗎"},{"start":9732.816,"end":9759.183,"text":"好 聰明了解好 那我們要來個提議來 我們往下看如果說我們給這些短一期的志願式官兵也類似樣的勞退或者是說農民退休儲金政府幫他提繳一部分譬如說現在勞退是提6%勞工自己也可以提提1%到6%但是有八成以上勞工都沒有提大部分都靠政府提這些錢目前勞退資金你知道年化報酬率多少嗎"},{"start":9760.259,"end":9788.901,"text":"上個月的新聞 年底的新聞我們平均每位勞退基金賺了五萬多一直成長喔那如果說我們今天我們國防部推行的這個政策把它放在TISA裡面他退伍之後他如果去勞工他可以把它帶進勞退的專戶他如果從農他可以進入了農退的專戶部長 這樣你了解吧增加我們短義騎士官兵他退伍後的轉業保障您同意嗎"},{"start":9790.592,"end":9810.163,"text":"您的意思是他在服役的期間對 他在服役的期間我們國防部就幫他比照參考類似勞退或農退的方式幫他提一筆錢他退伍後他才能帶走但是不是退伍金的概念退伍金是一次給這個是放在帳戶裡面我下面講給你聽來 你看看我幫你試算了來 下一頁"},{"start":9811.164,"end":9832.984,"text":"假如說短型士官兵我們目前以下的平均月薪大概是四萬三五年以上的平均是四萬五我是抓個平均如果我們政府提繳他在第一二年我們幫他提十趴三四年十二點五十五十七點五二十一此類推大概我們政府對他的比較大的薪資的比例第一年要幫他存十萬三"},{"start":9834.025,"end":9861.216,"text":"三四你要幫他存累積到232萬到了第五六年七八年最後十年內我們幫這樣的一個短一期志願役士官兵幫他存了71萬多但是這些錢在這十年當中根據我們的年化報酬率累積負利去計算他大概可以領回106萬請問藍市長106萬有沒有對於這些十年退伍的志願役士官兵第二類的農民有沒有比他們退伍金多"},{"start":9862.935,"end":9881.371,"text":"市長有沒有 你知道嗎旁邊有一位是哪一位保人事市長直接說有沒有比較多有比較多多很多嘛報委員 其實我們除了一筆退伍金以外其實軍保的部分也有一筆的給付對 都是一次性的對 然後軍保的給付目前官兵致富額是35%然後國家負擔是65%軍保保哪些項目"},{"start":9886.127,"end":9904.739,"text":"保商財嘛很多項目嘛但是你知道嗎農退跟勞退只有保什麼退休的準備 你了解嗎所以勞保有沒有你說的也有農保也有所以我在講的是我講的不是保險我講的是職業保障所以部長你回去一下指示你們的幕僚研究一下"},{"start":9905.419,"end":9921.117,"text":"如果今天我們國家要提升這些基層的志願役短期的士官兵他未來人生第二春他的準備除了前面的六項輔導之外請您評估一下這樣子如果以他十年來說政府投入的金額是71萬"},{"start":9923.378,"end":9943.201,"text":"71萬但是他可以領出來的因為有了TISA的複利他可以領出106萬這對我們團體的志願士官兵他的退伍後除了一次性的退伍金之外他不管轉從勞工轉從農業他都可以持續的把這樣的一個對自己的職業保障帶進去部長你了解了"},{"start":9944.301,"end":9962.311,"text":"我了解 但是我想這個部分涉及到要看起來是一個新的制度涉及到政府要提繳一定的比例這個部分應該不是國防部單純本身可以決定的當然 我在財政委員會我很樂意協助"},{"start":9962.898,"end":9983.952,"text":"因為目前我們在國家的財政在我們叫金管這個TISA這個事情是對全民來講的一個全民國民儲蓄在日本叫NISA在台灣叫TISA最後的結論因為時間到了我說結論請你評估指示吝嗇短疫期士官兵提繳賬戶政府疫情年資逐年提高提交比例"},{"start":9984.913,"end":9995.313,"text":"其可自行提早同等比例该账户基金投入TESA复利累积其退伍时可全额转入劳退或农退账户的可行性一个月内提出书面报告可以吗"},{"start":9996.549,"end":10018.867,"text":"不過你那個投入TESA累積負力這件事情如果TESA它再去做這個整個投資的運用還是要看這個投資的一個還是有一定的當然 它有一定的風險反正投資必有風險 這沒有錯但是這幾年來我們覺得因為直接講一個負力好像這個一定可以負力它本來就是負力但是它當然會有"},{"start":10020.608,"end":10047.009,"text":"贏虧啦 會有損益這個請你們評估因為目前國家在推 金管會在推賴總統也支持 行政院也支持是不是為了提升我們短期志願役士官兵他們在第二春人生的時候除了退伍金目前既有的軍保的退伍金之外他可以有一個累計類似勞退或農退的方式他未來轉到農民 轉到勞工這一筆的退休保障會跟著他的人生走 好不好"},{"start":10048.417,"end":10056.225,"text":"這個我們要跟香港部會來進行但是你們先進行評估其他部會這個我都會設法來解決好不好好 謝謝我們來評估 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢"},{"start":10073.418,"end":10076.93,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":10085.766,"end":10112.741,"text":"是 賴委員部長早辛苦了首先我想請教一下因為據相關的報導說美軍抓馬杜洛的時候使用了聲波武器這個聲波武器我不知道我們國軍目前有沒有這種武器沒有你知道這個事情吧"},{"start":10113.647,"end":10122.776,"text":"我有看到媒體的報導你看到媒體來不要忘了2018年5年多前蕭美琴你認識嗎蕭美琴當立委的時候質詢美國駐大陸中國大陸的大使館外交官受到聲波的攻擊腦損"},{"start":10136.941,"end":10153.437,"text":"這一次媒體報導的時候那時候美國駐古巴的大使館也發生過類似申報的攻擊也就是在五年多前五年多前小美琴她執行的是大陸的古巴是我另外找的資料"},{"start":10155.182,"end":10177.573,"text":"那麼就是已經有這樣的技術就五年多前就有這樣的技術就有這個事情發生然後看到最近的媒體報導是說這個委內瑞拉的士兵動彈不得吐血倒地腦袋像爆炸一樣流鼻血等等的很厲害"},{"start":10181.564,"end":10188.334,"text":"你會不會 我們要國軍的香港一套這個東西柯先生要不要先回答"},{"start":10189.564,"end":10217.59,"text":"委員好 我是座議事次長有關各種目前在不管是武裝衝突或是戰爭當中可能使用的威脅形態國軍都有不管從智庫的分析或者跟友盟情治上的交換來去掌握相關的不管是運用或者是防禦的方法那剛剛委員所講包含美軍使用這項武器事實上現在美軍並沒有證實看到了可能是網路上的"},{"start":10218.59,"end":10244.308,"text":"可是我已經提到2018年蕭美琴就質詢了這可見的2018年就有了2018年就有了包委員我們現在也透過我們的創新你們都不知道你們都不知道這個事我們在做高能微波或是雷射或是其他各種新式武器的科研案那當然未來國軍會在各種能力上能夠經過科研後所以你這樣講我是不是用白話文講說國軍已經在研究"},{"start":10248.45,"end":10275.498,"text":"類似聲波攻擊的武器是不是沒有或者聲波防禦沒有沒有要想一下如果解放軍來的話我們如果這樣東西就算防禦一下讓他這個馬上就倒地很好對不對 這個是什麼這個還不是致命性的武器它不是致命性的武器它音量很大它裡面頻率特殊 能量集中"},{"start":10278.648,"end":10283.241,"text":"這個 這個 你部長啊你那個1.25兆的特別預算你不要把這個列入採購的項目啊"},{"start":10285.512,"end":10296.121,"text":"我想因為現在都屬於媒體相關的報導或者是有一些這樣疑似的一些不是疑似2018年蕭美琴的質詢哪裡疑似 這怎麼是疑似呢2018年你看一看 Google一下2018年蕭美琴當立委的質詢都有那時候就有人 五年多都有了你怎麼不會想到我們也是一個防疫性的武器"},{"start":10313.174,"end":10317.415,"text":"我這邊以國防部的理解我們沒有辦法證實所以萬一如果解放軍對我們國軍採取深波攻擊的有沒有防禦之道委員因為提出來我們會盡量好去研究吧我再講一遍不要忘了不是今天媒體才講2018年蕭美琴就質詢了"},{"start":10341.124,"end":10343.707,"text":"你去看看 你去看看消美型的資訊好 我們下一個題這個 所以你們要去研究這個題目嘛那個部長是 我們來來研究一下 是什麼時候會有結果"},{"start":10358.419,"end":10373.658,"text":"我們可能要做一個相關的情收好 其實這個很厲害這個東西看起來不像生化武器那麼的可怕可是也是很厲害不然的話我那個人他也是死了上百人美軍很厲害 美軍太厲害了"},{"start":10377.18,"end":10397.182,"text":"零傷亡 哇 這太厲害了這就是武器啊 那我特別引用了蕭美琴的這個事情好 我們再看第二個題目我就請教因為我時間有限了 快到了你是不是確定了師通電這個軍種已經撤掉了並到陸軍裡面去 是不是確定"},{"start":10398.045,"end":10423.565,"text":"官員報告不是這樣子的意思是自動電軍裡面的通訊負責部隊的野戰通訊就是部隊在進行當中他要有一個野戰通訊所以將這個通訊的部隊現在本來編配那麼現在直接改回到陸軍自動電軍還是要維持他的專業特別著重在網路戰跟電子戰的部分"},{"start":10424.345,"end":10449.241,"text":"那我就請教我們現在軍種是陸海空直通還是陸海空三個還是四個 我們軍種我們軍種三個還是四個軍種跟兵種不一樣軍種就是陸海空那憲兵就是一種兵種不是一個軍種你原來有直通電軍是一個兵種不是一個軍種可是報導都說本來是一個軍種"},{"start":10452.783,"end":10469.955,"text":"不是不是不是本來就沒有資通電軍他是要不要相關的長官講一下那個站櫃是管這個報告委員資通電軍他從一開始的定位就是屬於國防部的直屬單位我們並沒有在編制上面賦予他軍種的位階"},{"start":10471.209,"end":10495.546,"text":"他是兵種 不是軍種也不是兵種這個是外界的說法我們在正式的文件裡面並沒有賦予他軍種的這個位階跟權限可是相關的長官原來少將是兵中將的啊這個缺都出來了啊 不是嗎他是提升他的位階然後把他的功能提升可是他跟軍種與否是沒有關係的"},{"start":10497.165,"end":10523.735,"text":"好 如果這樣講的話那我就請教這個資通電是不是如果講軍啦不一定軍種 資通電軍是不是外面一般所俗稱的白話文講就是大家講說部隊裡面的網軍是不是可以這樣講不是不是 什麼區別"},{"start":10525.952,"end":10552.469,"text":"網軍他是在外面採取網路訊息散播的方式去做達成某一種行為那資通電軍他設立的目的是以電子作戰攻防以及支援的方式還有網路攻防跟支援的方式來支援聯合作戰部隊有效執行任務所以這跟外面的網軍是天差地別好 那個請教部長這個"},{"start":10555.751,"end":10584.39,"text":"你這次的1.25兆的特別預算雖然還沒有付為了但是我們所知道都是主要是就台灣之盾的擴大版或者是主要就防空系統所以我就想說是不是一定買很多的飛彈不是很多的飛彈如果這樣子有沒有考慮過要不要類似中國大陸 俄羅斯 北韓 沙烏地阿拉伯除了陸海空以外都有個火箭軍有沒有這樣考量"},{"start":10585.236,"end":10587.878,"text":"跟委員報告 這個中國的這個火箭精主要當然它是包含導彈這些的那我們這邊 我們也有導彈啊不是我們對啊 我們也有防空的也有反艦的 是啊 我們的很厲害啊那另外我們這個海馬士也是一種遠程的火箭 是"},{"start":10607.409,"end":10634.177,"text":"那如果你要講這一次軍演中國所使用的PH-111的PCH-111部分的話那我們的相對應也就是海馬士那我們海馬士現在已經公佈我們原來買29現在再增加82就我們就會有111套這樣具有高機動性高存活率的遠程的精準的一個火箭新買的海馬士的射程可以多遠"},{"start":10635.677,"end":10649.565,"text":"他平常一般蛋大概70到90那如果是ATACMS的話40到300那當然美方還有另外一種PRSM的話可以到500500可以達到哪裡大概江西左右吧好 所以沒有我最後一句話你沒有回答我"},{"start":10661.394,"end":10665.576,"text":"有沒有考慮要成立火箭軍你剛剛講我們飛彈很厲害啊很多啊要不要考慮加一個軍種叫火箭軍他雖然叫火箭軍但是這幾個國家的所有火箭軍他都是以戰略飛彈部隊為主他具有戰略層次的打擊能力所以我們的我們只以守勢作戰來講我們的所有的火箭跟飛彈都是用為自衛所用的我們可以打到江西就不是守勢了不是跟委員報告"},{"start":10691.092,"end":10697.222,"text":"你不要看到火箭軍這兩個字以為它叫火箭它其實都是戰略性的那些飛彈對嘛 就飛彈軍嘛"},{"start":10701.878,"end":10714.828,"text":"但是對我們來講 我們的反艦的飛彈我們飛在海軍 我們的航空飛彈也在空軍我們的海馬是在陸軍我們都是採聯合作戰的一個首次作戰所以沒有 你 我的答案就是答案不考慮就對了啦 是不是就這麼簡單啦 可以這樣講嗎委員要進一步了解一下這個所謂中國的火箭軍它內涵是什麼啦"},{"start":10725.115,"end":10730.897,"text":"還有俄羅斯 北韓 沙烏地阿拉伯都有軍種都有 都一樣不是只有中國大陸而已都一樣 是好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請楊瓊英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言人邀請部長請顧部長"},{"start":10762.083,"end":10788.53,"text":"是 部長好我們來討論一個關鍵彈藥數量足夠嗎的這個問題那近年來許多的軍事衝突我們都很清楚一個事實戰爭的勝負它不是只有單一因子它不只是取決於武器先進與否而且是在能不能在高消耗的這個情境上面你可以持續的去補充彈藥維持這個戰力"},{"start":10790.931,"end":10804.153,"text":"那現在我們戰爭當中我們很清楚看到彈藥消耗的速度往往比超平常的時候它速度需求更大對不對是所以特別是在防空飛彈"},{"start":10806.263,"end":10827.259,"text":"這個精準導引彈藥以及火炮彈藥跟無人系統相關的這個耗材那一旦如果進入到暫時的高度交鋒的時候如果補給鏈去中斷 庫存不足那即使擁有有先進的武器也可能在短時間之內喪失了這個有效的戰力對不對 部長是"},{"start":10832.122,"end":10834.588,"text":"那施的情況之下我們要先來討論國內我們的生產量能可以嗎"},{"start":10845.09,"end":10862.483,"text":"我們現在應該有分說國內可以產製但是可能現有產能不足或者是國內沒有產能需要外國獲得國內產製可以的我們到底我們的量能有沒有照我們原先所規劃的這個量能可以產出"},{"start":10863.405,"end":10883.512,"text":"所以如果以輕兵器的這些彈藥我想是不是軍備局說明一下好 軍備局請做說明跟委員說明我們205的輕兵器就是在今年的3月我們有用中科院的那個委協書做了FM的你講的是5.56公里的這個鋼筋嗎90公里跟50機槍我們都會今年都會恢復量產"},{"start":10890.575,"end":10910.339,"text":"恢復量產為什麼呢因為應該是繳成是比您所剛剛一直委員詢問的你預計在今年的3月份你的產線可以再去量產但是如果依照我們原先的規劃應該是往前推嘛是不是就產線擴張 對 產線是不是來"},{"start":10914.315,"end":10932.533,"text":"產線的擴張 我假如是按照剛剛馬遠的執行過了我舊產線兩條 新產線有四條那我只要再增加了底火我也有編了特別預算我的底火我再擴一條線那在高耗的情況之下我們評估是可以滿足我們的需求的"},{"start":10933.093,"end":10952.878,"text":"評估是可以滿足我們的需求所以依照目前你所說的3月份的這個部分是可以5.56的這個鋼琴的部分你是可以滿足這個需求而且擴限滿足這個需求同時也是在3月份可以去呈現是不是"},{"start":10955.007,"end":10959.911,"text":"3月份就可以量產了3月份就對啊 就是可以呈現嘛可以量產呈現是不是部長 這個在這邊啊因為國人都非常的關心剛剛特別跟你討論的這個部分也就是我們也生怕如果到時候斷鏈的時候要怎麼辦"},{"start":10971.9,"end":10973.462,"text":"那我們支持我們的這個MIT這是全國全力的支持所以剛剛軍備局局長所做的報告是在3月份可以量產出來你所增加的這個產線"},{"start":10988.043,"end":11010.837,"text":"剛剛提到的5.56的那個部分是3月然後其他的部分到9月那這是清兵器的部分那我們其實還有還有飛彈的部分然後還有無人機的部分那請說明一下國人非常的關心8月的部分是什麼呢讓國人放心也知道我們MIT是可以的是不是請中科院說明一下"},{"start":11012.118,"end":11033.99,"text":"8月份的時候 請說說明我們可以量產出什麼樣的產品飛彈的部分是由中科院來負責生產跟委員報告大概一個數量就是從111年海空戰力提升特別預算一直執行到現在我們的飛彈產能增加了2.63倍這是整個精準飛彈的部分"},{"start":11035.461,"end":11059.471,"text":"其實我們的飛彈設定並不是像委員講的就是說我們是以平時訓練或是概括數字作為規劃的現在請你說明清楚而是在敵人渡海作戰的時候我們以台灣海峽為一個天線的話在敵人渡海作戰的時候我們要把他的登陸部隊消耗到50%以上作為我們一個庫儲的標的和目標所以在剛剛你所說明的當中這個是可以達到的"},{"start":11060.782,"end":11078.318,"text":"目前我們的庫儲標的是以這個作為目標以這個作為目標 讓國人清楚 請大家放心但是你沒有回答本席剛剛所說的剛剛部長說的在8月份的時候哪一個 軍備局請你做說明9月份是7.6那到底是8月份還是9月份因為剛剛部長是說8月份我說9月部長說9月沒有 你說8月沒關係 就是我們要聽清楚這個就是我們應該是我講錯"},{"start":11086.745,"end":11095.37,"text":"9月份恢復7.6290公里手槍彈7.62的那個部機槍彈還有武林機槍彈都是在9月份可以量產好那部長剛剛我們所做的5分鐘的討論很清楚的我們不是以平常訓練的這個概括數字來定奪是不是"},{"start":11110.421,"end":11113.122,"text":"對 我們現在要提高我們的戰備存量是 一定要讓國人他就放心第二個也就是MIT的部分我們國人我相信不分藍綠白的委員絕對會全力的支持是不是對 像剛剛我提到的那同時剛剛除了輕兵器彈藥 飛彈"},{"start":11128.729,"end":11150.915,"text":"那我們還有一個像無人機所以我們無人機無人機誰負責是不是說明一下因為這個現在大家都很關心它的耗材量也非常的大無人機現在就是我們要把這個量能給開出來國防部作為最大的需求者所以就是要在115年 116年那我們現在已經有對外公告我們要買48000多架那我們長期來看我們還要購買更多那這個也放入那個特別預算"},{"start":11157.284,"end":11160.405,"text":"好 所以這個也就是國人的安全對 國人的安全這是第一個也是我們國防部最重要的職責那第二個我們關心的也就是MIT的部分我們是絕對一定全力的支持讓國人都可以知道台灣的量能台灣的能力到底在哪裡那剛剛所回答的我們會繼續追蹤也希望大家勉勵大家一定要達陣成功"},{"start":11185.851,"end":11189.854,"text":"我們會盡全力來努力謝謝謝謝委員接下來請林倩琦委員林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請洪孟楷委員上台質詢"},{"start":11215.748,"end":11217.23,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩請顧部長請顧部長好顧部長顧部長"},{"start":11228.41,"end":11252.042,"text":"本席過去到現在一直認為說保密相對重要國家其實有所謂的這個國家檔案機密法保密法所以說我想請教一下像今天我們又送進來的這個報告其實每一次給立法院外交國防委員會我想已經在第11屆的立法院每一次都有這樣的一個報告"},{"start":11252.822,"end":11272.58,"text":"那現在突然說傳出來現在這個報告上面又寫一個五本憲署公開資訊我想請教一下這跟我們現在的這個國家機密保密法有什麼樣的一個出路有什麼樣的差別國家機密保護法它也有一個要"},{"start":11273.669,"end":11298.323,"text":"合定機密的一個精神嗎是啊那我們我們過去到現在不都這樣做嗎如果說公文書裡面有機密有分普通件機密件這個高機密件跟絕對機密件嗎那我想先請教因為其實這就是國人現在看到就是說這一段時間尤其這兩個禮拜讓大家覺得說非常訝異或說覺得是說好像多此一舉就是說"},{"start":11300.482,"end":11315.772,"text":"給外交國防委員會的資料我想這邊也有媒體也有相關的委員同仁等等的那你這些資料不是都屬於公開資訊嗎多增加這一句話的意思是什麼對核定這份資料的人來講他要確定這一份都是公開資訊"},{"start":11317.864,"end":11343.083,"text":"那過去沒有嗎過去沒有核定我們現在要求就是說希望他們在核定的時候因為過去如果沒有辦法能夠逐頁或者逐段的來核定的時候就會導致兩種情況一個就是說本來應該要列密的沒有列密那或者是本來不應該列密的把它列明過去有發生過嗎"},{"start":11344.404,"end":11359.058,"text":"我想請教一下因為外交國防委員會跟其他委員會比較不一樣是有些時候可能會開秘密會議也因此在開秘密會議的時候即便是我們委員也要簽到也要屬於是說你要參加秘密會議還是要是公開質詢對 那個秘密會議的時候會把記者媒體朋友給請出去那我現在請教一下如果在開機密專報的話"},{"start":11363.982,"end":11379.272,"text":"那些機密的文件確實會有包含它會標示機密或標示無那麼委員在即使就拿到這個機密專報切決要保密的情況之下如果那一段是屬於無的話委員就會很清楚理解那一段是可以公開的"},{"start":11380.032,"end":11400.912,"text":"是 那我現在就說90%的情況不是整份文件都變成密現在在討論的是我現在跟你在討論那今天的資料上禮拜記者會已經讓大家覺得嘩然就說連國防部的記者會都要每一句每一句連報告完畢都要有一個無那結果你那個時候我想 顧部長"},{"start":11402.333,"end":11413.319,"text":"我尊重我們國軍弟兄大家的一個專業但是也不要讓變成是說長官一句話國軍弟兄大家叫苦連天或說大家變成是要做很多的紙上作業"},{"start":11416.039,"end":11435.85,"text":"來 消耗大家的行政量能所以本席想要請教的是你現在又再改變了說不用每一段都後面加5但我想請教的是說像今天這個報告本來它就是一個公開的回覆的資訊的一個報告上面又加一個5本件屬公開資訊那過去有公開資訊裡面放密件嗎公委報告"},{"start":11442.193,"end":11464.278,"text":"如果一份文件它有一些部分是並不是屬於密的那它過去的話它就會可能是一份上百頁報告的內容它其中有一個段落涉及機密結果整份報告都列為密所以我們現在才會有一個不管是從美軍的做法或相關有盟國家的做法我們來一個做精準和密我再講一下"},{"start":11468.379,"end":11470.781,"text":"因為現在在數位化的這個時代我們對於相關的這些文書的這些檔案我們到時候都要有一個儲存然後我們有一個傳遞 我們一個運用那麼我們如果做這樣的精密核試大家才會讓人家理解說"},{"start":11486.016,"end":11501.28,"text":"我們在不同的這個機密的網域裡面他可以有存相關的哪些資料然後哪一些被核密的人員他可以接觸到哪一些的密 機密即機密跟絕對機密都是不一樣的人所以這個精準的核密的做法精準核密的做法是每方行之有年行之有年我們要跟他做共同的對接"},{"start":11511.502,"end":11528.232,"text":"本席想要強調的是不要說美方行之有年重點中華民國我們自己就有我們自己的機密保護嘛你的法源依據是不是也是依照中華民國的機密保護跟委員報告根據國軍的保密教則本來就規定要逐段逐頁要審任機密我們只是沒有去落實所以過去都沒有落實部長講一個大實話我們現在是要求要這樣的落實"},{"start":11539.599,"end":11568.353,"text":"那所以新頒的這些相關的規定這樣子所以今天本席要跟你探討就是兩個部分過去部長講一個大實話過去都沒有落實那該檢討該究責但現在不要矯枉過正啊我想請教一下給外交國防委員會所有媒體朋友大家都可以上網甚至一般的民眾上立法院議事網站你也可以有相關的資料可以看到啊"},{"start":11569.383,"end":11573.996,"text":"那我想請教像這樣子在上面再多一個無本件署公開資訊這個意義在哪邊"},{"start":11577.443,"end":11593.946,"text":"就是告訴這個是一個公開資訊而且合定的人沒有寫5就不是公開資訊合定的人就會在每一段上面他都逐頁都能夠認知到這是一個公開資訊跟委員報告我想請教外交國防的資料過來的時候有沒有被核定過我們可以來保持一個開放討論的態度但是我們親密的和密還是我們的一個基本的政策"},{"start":11606.788,"end":11623.11,"text":"過去到現在外交國防委員會的資料最高層級到誰核定市長還是部長 甲章乙章我想如果到國防部來進行報告最後當然都會到我這邊來大家進行討論所以過去到現在也都是你核定啊"},{"start":11623.902,"end":11630.326,"text":"不是說核定的概念的權限的問題是說要進到這個外交官委員會來你剛剛才講是說要給核定人確認然後是看這到底是機密還是無機密現在又講說不是權限的問題你可以說好那如果要這樣講的話關於到外交官委員會的報告都是會經過我這邊是所以你過去沒有落實"},{"start":11650.578,"end":11670.608,"text":"我們過去要怎麼樣進行標示這件事情並不清楚副長 本席很語重心長因為我希望是我們國軍做實事如果說真如同說現在民進黨政府講兵兇戰為不要讓我們國軍弟兄大家變成是都在做紙上工夫然後大家都在做行政作業流程"},{"start":11671.266,"end":11691.869,"text":"上個禮拜已經每一段落後面一個五已經讓大家覺得是一笑大方但現在你要搞另外一個部分其實國家機密檔案法本來也就有相關的規定如果說是普通件上面在一開始公文傳輸的時候就會寫普通件如果說有機密件就會寫說機密幾年解密它有相關的規定"},{"start":11693.07,"end":11711.969,"text":"但國防部現在變成是自己在搞另外一個版本或是另外一個系統你說要跟美方還是跟我們國家接軌如果說是跟國家接軌的話那其他部會要不要比照辦理那如果說是跟美方接軌的話很抱歉我們中華民國有我們自己的法令規定也不是美國人說什麼我們都要聽什麼我覺得這兩個要分得非常清楚"},{"start":11716.943,"end":11744.844,"text":"在軍事上面我們可以跟美國有比較多的一個合作但是對我們自己的一個保密的部分我覺得我們自己要依照我們自己相關的法令中華民國法令本來就有規定不是嗎國防部就是在推動這樣子的一個精準的資料治理啊所以你們過去就沒有精準嗎然後現在又有點是矯枉過正嘛所以說才會變成是說之後每一個報告上面都要有一個5然後本件署公開資訊嘛"},{"start":11746.604,"end":11765.33,"text":"這就矯枉過正然後上禮拜我還是強調上禮拜我們委員在跟你質詢的時候其實大家也都是把民眾看到的部分甚至你說記者會公開的資訊我們都請教記者會都已經是國防部邀請來記者朋友來報導了你們會把機密秀出來給記者看嗎那結果還要這邊標示這種部分"},{"start":11771.377,"end":11778.681,"text":"那今天給我們所有外交國防委員會的委員就已經是公開的資訊了還要再多編列多標示我們做一點實事啦我們是在做實事就是在做實事所以我才跟你再一次的提醒"},{"start":11789.222,"end":11817.812,"text":"這件事是不要在紙上作業讓官兵弟兄造成行政上的一個浪費會整個會帶動我們的一個數位化資料治理的一個進步跟委員報告這是事實部長您之後慢慢的我想我們現在在磨合期還會有很多可以討論的空間我們會徵詢各界的意見來隨時檢討改進但是這是一件應該要做的一個基本功"},{"start":11818.912,"end":11838.826,"text":"所以本席就是聽你這句話之後才會覺得說你上禮拜推動的真的是太過倉促沒有討論就直接推動好好的做事希望我們國軍弟兄加油好不好我們是討論了有相當長的時間但是當然還是有一些值得檢討的地方啦謝謝部長謝謝接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":11859.65,"end":11883.581,"text":"您好我們請部長請顧部長部長好部長針對這個機密標示的一個制度性問題我還是想要繼續來提問那在美國的制度裡面那關於這個機密的標示它是以什麼樣的原則"},{"start":11886.798,"end":11914.484,"text":"以美軍我們現在所收到的所有文件它大概不管是標題或每一段它是在標在前面它在標在這個每一段的前面好 抱歉我剛才可能講得不夠清楚或明白標示機密 最高機密或非常的絕密這些等等它標示的這個權責是由誰來去做標示以及為什麼要標示這個資料是為最高機密或者是次高機密等等"},{"start":11915.566,"end":11915.687,"text":"因為會這個整個標示"},{"start":11919.551,"end":11949.194,"text":"疑問文件他標示為不管是這個比如說是U那就是Unclassified那會有Confidential會有Secret會有Top Secret那麼標示完之後他並不是整整個文件其中有一段那他就每一段都有這樣不同的標示之後呢那麼他在我想在儲存運用上的時候就會在不同的可以接觸人的這個特別在數位化裡面都會"},{"start":11949.814,"end":11963.16,"text":"我們會有不同的一個網域在這個比較低層的網域的時候呢不是屬於機密的會往這個低層來送那麼如果是屬於機密的低層的網域的人就看不到這個機密的文件"},{"start":11963.837,"end":11990.903,"text":"那跟委員報告如果我們要進一步在整個我們的這些所有相關的這些共同作戰圖像或者共同的情報圖像在不同等級的人要能夠看到這些相關的文件這樣的做法是有必要的好 謝謝部長其實部長剛才你回答的是我可能等一下要問的比較細部的問題那我剛才主要的問題是說我們依照什麼樣的原因"},{"start":11991.803,"end":12017.378,"text":"認定這個文件是機密或者不是機密那我想過去包含我們在立法院這兩年國安局也好或者是其他的這一個國安相關的單位那我遇到一個問題就是說我發現到很多明顯是公開資訊的事情但是全部都以標示為密件或者是用機密會議的方式提供給我們這些我們在這一個國際關係討論就會看到的這一個資訊那這就是沒有清晰的把"},{"start":12018.618,"end":12041.386,"text":"資訊做一個很好的去歸類跟分類那在美國的部分那部長我先講完我先說完然後等一下還會詢問你問題所以我看到這一次我們這個開始重視這個每一個標示就表示我們很認真的去要面對說哪些是屬於機密哪些是屬於非機密遇到機密的文件我們要怎麼樣去分段處理做數位的治理等等這未來都是有幫助的儘管一開始"},{"start":12042.126,"end":12068.495,"text":"會有一些磨合期但是我還是要強調我們對於機密的標示它不可以無限上綱我們必須要比方說這個美國的這個行政命令的第13526號很明確的來去做一個分析對國家安全造成可識別或者是可描述的損害是可以把它標列為機密依照這個機密我們才可以一個一個往上什麼是機密 什麼是非機密什麼是最高機密"},{"start":12069.315,"end":12083.541,"text":"比方說我們看到這個之前我們國安局他在做一些這個簡報的時候他大概是整篇整個文件都是密但是整個文件裡面基本上可能一個段落"},{"start":12084.401,"end":12110.147,"text":"才是密等 其他不是嘛所以為什麼我們要標示的原因也是這樣我們要很清晰的知道說未來哪一些人哪一些層級的人才可以看到哪些需要看到的資訊need to know也是這樣子的所以這是一個很好的嘗試我不會說這是不對的但是很多很細膩的東西我們要開始做首先就是大量的標示機密但其實根本不是機密這就是把文件做非常沒有效率的處置在美國也會有類似這樣的狀況"},{"start":12111.067,"end":12139.399,"text":"那我們為什麼要有標示機密或者是最高機密為什麼機密的等級而且還要有解密的實現呢因為在民主的國家裡面它必須要能夠回溯能夠去看說過去它這些做出來的決定這些政府官員做出來的決定是對的還是錯的從越戰到這個韓戰越戰到後來的包含這個伊拉克戰爭第二次伊拉克戰爭大量的解密文件後來回溯才知道說當初的戰略想定是對還是錯"},{"start":12140.92,"end":12161.092,"text":"當初得到的情報是對還是錯當初使用情報的方式是對還是錯那後面的行政人員才可以知道說我們可以從中來得到什麼樣的教訓那以後才可以避免做出這樣子的戰略上面的錯誤所以為什麼戰略上面要公開那在細則上面很清楚的什麼樣的東西是要被列為密等的比方說軍事計畫"},{"start":12163.067,"end":12190.841,"text":"軍事行動 情報活動還有跟國家安全相關的技術事項甚至是為了保護在美方的話是包含核材料跟他核設施的計畫所以他是有很具體的告訴我們哪些是可以核密哪些是不用核密那我們就不會把我們所有的行政效益的時間放在這上面去但是剛才部長有提到的說一段一段的這個未來的做法可不可以部長再稍微簡單的跟我們國人來講"},{"start":12191.981,"end":12195.647,"text":"為什麼要這麼做 這樣做的理由是什麼而且為什麼我們還要持續要這麼做"},{"start":12197.719,"end":12222.693,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們運作下來我們就會發現到或者是討論到剛剛委員所講的如果是以這個國家金保護法的精神來講是以最小程度和密原則沒錯所以我們分段的這個和密的話呢他就會去認真的檢視這些哪一段是屬於一般公務機密或涉及國家機密或者是屬於可以公開的資訊"},{"start":12223.873,"end":12245.716,"text":"那這樣子的話 我想我們有這樣子一個討論讓這個精準和密 也能夠落實這個保密保護機密的這樣的概念的話那包括跟友盟之間有一個互通性那包括在我們不同的網域之間我們有比較低的密集的網域 有比較高密集的網域"},{"start":12246.477,"end":12270.092,"text":"也讓我們安全調查之後可以涉密的人的這個權限因此可以在不同的這個現在數位治理的情況之下他不同的網系他可以有權限應該看到什麼會更精準的去展示他應該要看到的內容那如果像過去的這樣子的一個和密的方式是做不到這樣子分級分類的做法呢"},{"start":12270.672,"end":12291.981,"text":"非常好那這是一個開始但是我們就避免最開始我們比方說昨天前天我們看到這些問題就是在每一個段落都用無納有些非就是一般文書或者是公開簡報那也是這樣子標示其實我們很快速的就調整了我認為還是要做要做但是一開始會有這一個需要調整的地方我們就快速的去應變就好了因為"},{"start":12292.941,"end":12308.497,"text":"每一個政策的它在執行的時間它最開始都會有一些磨合期甚至是有的時候可能是有錯誤的地方那我們就把它改正就好我不認為這是這不代表說我們現在做的是錯誤的這代表我們現在做的是正確的但是需要時間跟更完善的溝通"},{"start":12308.817,"end":12319.49,"text":"所以我必須要強調我看他們之前他們做了十幾年在一開始也會有一個磨擦器我們這幾天運作下來我想也會有一些磨擦器所以我們接下來會來討論檢討好 謝謝部長所以我剛才要提到的說"},{"start":12326.818,"end":12349.087,"text":"我是希望因為現在要檢討之後那還有你怎麼去分類指引還有你到底要是怎麼標速你可能還是要有一個快速的諮詢窗口那這個部分部長你們應該會有所準備吧是就會讓所有的官軍弟兄都知道接下來怎麼處理的方式因為其實一開始還是很亂我們不是很清楚我們要努力的來再宣達"},{"start":12350.207,"end":12372.979,"text":"然後也要聽取各界的意見包括我們在官兵在做這個的時候那麼他面對的一些困難我們要了解您剛剛提到的核定要件的部分事實上就是一開始的時候我就有提出來那要讓官兵整個了解核定的一些要件那在根據那個執行命令裡面核定要件裡面"},{"start":12373.519,"end":12392.416,"text":"那比方說在美方的話他的最高機密的原始的分類權限是由總統副總統或者是指定機關首長跟官員然後依此類推那在下面就是指定官方的官員再授權給這個相關的去劃設或者是說相關的指引人員那所以說他們包含每一個"},{"start":12393.837,"end":12419.104,"text":"來自身官員的授權就授權說這個是機密就是他必須要核定這個是機密還是非機密的這些人他本身也要受訓就是他還知道說我們才不會什麼把這個非機密的事情每次為了要就是可能是要快速的要交差就先把它弄機密其實美方也有一些類似這樣的問題所以說他們會有相關的課程要讓這些和密的人知道說我到底該怎麼標才可以既符合行政效率又不會"},{"start":12421.265,"end":12441.44,"text":"這個過度的來去區分密等那所以在美方呢那是有一個資訊安全的監督辦公室也就是說你當初把這個權你把這一個文件設立為什麼機密這個官員他的相關的這個名字職位明確都會標示給該官員就是說你去劃定這些資料"},{"start":12442.501,"end":12459.079,"text":"這些資料是為機密的劃定資料為機密的這些官員他是會把紙寫跟他的名稱是會交給這個資訊安全監督辦公室的也就是說這是一個完整的配套模式他不是說我今天想說這看起來有點重要我就把它變成機密"},{"start":12460.14,"end":12489.78,"text":"它可能重要但非機密啊它可能是重要可以向人民去公開的資訊但它非機密啊所以它是一個非常複雜也是一個非常重要的一個整個系統這跟我們剛開始建立法院的時候我們說要查核背景人員從那個地方開始到我們怎麼樣去運用文件這個過程是很漫長的那很漫長不代表說我們最好的方法是十年前就開始做啦那我們知道十年前沒有完整的落實那至少現在開始也是一個"},{"start":12491.361,"end":12518.422,"text":"也不會太晚只是說我們現在多討論只是說我在最後部長稍微簡單講一下就是說美國在核機密這件事情其實在內部也有很多交鋒因為近年確實有過度把一些非機密的事情變成機密導致他們管理異常困難的狀況無所不防就等於什麼都沒有在防我們重要的是在高風險的資訊上面的這個核定上"},{"start":12519.002,"end":12536.474,"text":"那我認為這個才是我們要重視的部分不然現在官民可能會擔心就是說怎麼全部都是機密這樣怎麼辦怎麼樣去處理這些問題所以我剛才提到的這一個包含這個13526號的這個行政命令可以稍微去參考"},{"start":12537.595,"end":12561.188,"text":"那再看嘛因為這經過15年美國有很多不同的變化我們還是從中取得跟我們台灣本土我們自己國軍他們過去的行為模式也要有一個比較本土化的一個做法因為直接照抄也不見得是最好的方式但是畢竟美方在機密保護上面還是領先其他國家很多的所以"},{"start":12562.188,"end":12571.753,"text":"可以學習但是看怎麼樣做一個調和讓我們台灣的這個國軍也能夠重新有一個更好的一個安全的制度在"},{"start":12572.757,"end":12589.67,"text":"所以我想我完全同意委員的意見就是說我們一方面滾動式檢討那一方面美方已經行之有年我們也會參考美方的做法那一方面我們會吸收各界包括所有官兵在和密的過程當中所面臨的問題我們來公開討論的方式我們不是說公開我們會來以討論的方式來進行然後我再補充一點就是說其實"},{"start":12598.777,"end":12615.172,"text":"美方他儘管是有一些機密跟相關 跟相較於像蘇聯以前這個蘇聯他把幾乎什麼東西都是軍事機密等於是零透明度所以後來所有的東西相關解密之後才發現到說他們的軍事是極端腐敗的而且是沒有辦法經過集合的"},{"start":12615.532,"end":12642.715,"text":"相反的因為美國有一個完整的一個國會的制衡基督還有這個新聞媒體的架構在所以他們可以從過去的從越戰 韓戰各種不同時間各種不同的衝突上面他經過文件解密之後有更多人去研究過去的一些他們做出的這些戰略也好或者是戰術的執行也好從中不斷的在學習所以美方當然是美軍當然是世上最強大的武力之一不會不斷的在監督 稽查然後再去學習"},{"start":12643.436,"end":12672.736,"text":"那我們既要有美方的這種保密的能力那也會有一個相關相對也是要有這一個能夠去監督跟去集合的方式內部也要有內部的集合方式所以我剛才提到了這個他們的安全諮詢局他就是看說你們是不是有過度來去標示機密等等所以它是一個很平衡的一個做法那老實說我們過去這幾年來從國軍也好或者甚至是到警政系統因為有太多洩密的狀況"},{"start":12673.776,"end":12700.65,"text":"太多洩密的狀況導致說包含總統府的行程等等這些都被洩露出去這其實就直接明顯且立即威脅到這個國家的這個領導人的安全那當然我們才要做一些改變所以我想也是藉這個機會跟在野黨的朋友們來講說我們為什麼要這麼做不是要找麻煩而是說在找平衡那在這邊跟所有民眾們報告最後趙友再問最後一個問題就好關於這個"},{"start":12702.751,"end":12727.891,"text":"中共陸軍飛彈因為剛才我們提到了彈藥量其中彈藥量裡面除了這些輕型武器之外當然就是另外一個就是防空的能力那近期提到中共的陸軍飛彈的這個陸軍飛彈的數量估計有各個不同的說法那當然那另一方面有人說儘管他們那麼多飛彈但是他們的發射器有不同的立委跟不同的這個退休的軍事人員有不同的指教"},{"start":12728.612,"end":12752.601,"text":"那不論如何 中共或許是有600個發射其他們一次大概怎麼樣等等我想要問的是說不涉及數字我想請教說現有的防空飛彈有沒有辦法阻擋第一波第二波有沒有辦法做完善的這個防護那如果我們不夠的話那要怎麼樣來去補充這個產量跟能量是不是請部長或者是院長來簡單回覆院長要不要先回答"},{"start":12753.88,"end":12775.788,"text":"跟委員回報就是委員已經列出來之前媒體刊登有關本院產能的部分重點就是在海空戰力提升特別預算一直執行到現在我們把所有的飛彈產制大概50%以上但51%點幾已經委託給民間來做也就是把你的產能韌性是積蓄在民間中科院負責的只是後段"},{"start":12776.548,"end":12804.847,"text":"最後的部分所以有50%以上是民間累積這個產能在民間這第一個部分第二個就是說我們不能判定解放軍他的空襲會打幾波但是我們的彈藥存量就是以能夠抵禦他大部分的空襲為準當然這個是如果要長時間維持下去的話沒有人會講自己的彈藥百分之百都是夠所以我們未來努力的方向就是把防空和反艦飛彈我們會去做模組化和低成本大量製造的設計這個"},{"start":12807.088,"end":12835.448,"text":"能量我們會在三年之內建立這也是在俄烏戰爭之後我們學到的一個寶貴的教訓另一方面我還是要提到大家都會把攻擊方的無人機或者是飛彈我們當然是用全力的來增強我們的防控能力但是也不用把他們的能力來無端的誇示比方說在2025年年底俄國是出動了40枚飛彈跟500多架無人機造成的死亡人數是零"},{"start":12837.314,"end":12862.742,"text":"那一次那一波是死亡人數之零 為什麼有完善的防空系統的話我們是有機會能夠擋下的500架無人機跟40枚飛彈它會造成基礎設施的傷害但是我相信我國的防空能力希望可以比烏克蘭更好當然就是要有更多的資源放進去在戰前 在衝突之前做最好的準備就不會有戰的問題所以備戰就不會有戰爭"},{"start":12863.862,"end":12882.375,"text":"只要他們知道說我們的能力可以讓他們就算不斷的生產還是沒有辦法造成我們的主要的損失的話他們就會三射後卸這就是嚇阻我們的嚇阻必須要把資源放在刀口上面放在我們的防空能力我想他們一開始就會失敗好 謝謝謝偉"},{"start":12889.911,"end":12902.939,"text":"謝謝剛剛陳委員其實有提到重點美國的這個行政命令對於這個機密的核定其實是非常清楚的如果說我們在核密的流程屬於一般"},{"start":12903.9,"end":12926.528,"text":"無機密的文書它本來就是一般的文書所以如果說現在除了要去做這樣的一個討論以外更應該要讓大家知道如果說用這樣的方式會不會造成像剛剛講的因為美方就是有比較民主的這個監督跟集合的制度所以它的軍力可以這麼強大"},{"start":12927.768,"end":12953.325,"text":"反而像蘇聯或俄羅斯這樣子他們在機密上面幾乎全部都用這個套上去那不斷的有很多的腐敗產生所以就這個部分也應該要詳細的對我們立法院或者我們的國人說明清楚現在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請葉元芝委員上台質詢"},{"start":12967.244,"end":12969.264,"text":"主席好 麻煩請國防部長 謝謝請顧部長部長好我有一次想要來問一下那個之前這個無字天數的事情當然國防部是有兩次轉彎啦一開始最早的時候是要求我們軍官我們軍人就是連在網路上傳訊息通通都要加無獲密"},{"start":12992.389,"end":13019.536,"text":"然後後來把這個取消取消之後上個禮拜四這邊有很多委員有質詢這件事情當時部長還是蠻堅持的但是在1月9號晚上就宣布經過各界意見之後呢只要是那種公開的報告呢就不要再標示無了應該是這樣嘛沒有錯嘛是但我想要問一下部長因為理論上來講國防部的決策應該是要非常精緻非常細心"},{"start":13020.436,"end":13043.374,"text":"那怎麼會這麼粗糙的訂定這樣的制度然後兩次轉彎當初是為什麼會這樣我想這個這樣子的一個資料治理的一個基本的功夫逐段逐頁來標示這一件事情確實在事前我們花了很多時間但是還當然還是會有很多的一些"},{"start":13044.375,"end":13059.068,"text":"在現在在進行的過程當中會發現有一些可以檢討的地方那我想我們都會快速的來因應來審視這些有沒有跟我們原來要精準和密的這個精神是符合的"},{"start":13059.608,"end":13078.941,"text":"那我想我們都會只要討論 確認沒有違反我們精準和密的這個精神我們都會願意接納各方的意見這個不是說接不接納當然後來您是接納了 所以改了但我們會對於軍方的決策產生一些懷疑就是為什麼會這麼粗糙"},{"start":13080.302,"end":13106.659,"text":"而且這樣的決策多次轉彎也造成了軍中很多士兵或軍官的大家的不滿像剛剛很多委員也有提到我們這邊也可以秀出來這是上下一頁再下下一頁這是上一頁你看馬上就有網友就開始酸了做這個絕無機密的貼圖就出來了然後很多軍官也在網路上"},{"start":13107.751,"end":13131.422,"text":"抱怨現在是要磕很多張嗎現在要磕很多張接下來他會做很多繁複的行政工作對大家來說壓力都非常大所以我還是建議如果國防部要做這種影響那麼大的一個會影響那麼多人的決策一定要小心評估再推不然的話就會造成這樣的困擾然後部長上個禮拜四在"},{"start":13132.355,"end":13160.665,"text":"接受有些委員的詢問的時候你說當時推這個政策是為了要跟美國接軌嘛是有這樣講沒錯嘛 對不對然後你有提到說美國也是這樣子做可是實際上我看到有些媒體其實有去找了很多美軍美國就是國防部現在叫戰爭部給國會的報告他們找了三份報告就沒有逐項逐段的去標示武所以跟部長在立法院答詢也不一樣"},{"start":13161.205,"end":13184.124,"text":"我不知道是部長你被蒙蔽了還是你對這個訊息的掌握那時候有落差基本上相關美軍的一些文件應該都是會有這樣類似的標誌這兩天就有媒體他們特別因為你部長你這樣講嘛所以他們就去找我至少在新聞上面就看到三份報告您講的是什麼樣的報告就是美國的國防部他們給國會的報告"},{"start":13186.225,"end":13214.336,"text":"對 那這個就是我們現在也寫國會的報告我們現在就說不用阻斷來調查對 他們沒有嘛可是你上個禮拜四你在回答其他委員的問題的時候你就說你會這樣做是因為參考美國做法但美國就沒有這樣做啊你是現在才改嘛但你推出來的時候跟美國做法就已經不一樣了所以我不知道為什麼你會在國會會這樣答詢是有被蒙蔽還是跟委員報告啦在一開始的時候當然是比較討論到的是那個刊物"},{"start":13215.031,"end":13243.525,"text":"跟類似報紙這一類那所以我們現在後來進一步在討論一些文件的時候我們在一開始的時候是考慮到說這些文件當然以後可能也會有機密的專報也有非機密的專報所以我們認為要進行這個但是我們檢討之後確實是認為對於不特定人所已經決定公開的這個資訊那我們就對啦 所以這就不是跟美國接軌嘛這是你自己延伸出來的嘛"},{"start":13244.319,"end":13246.537,"text":"我接下來你既然講到美國建議幾件事情"},{"start":13247.928,"end":13273.81,"text":"第一個因為接下你們內部的資料還是會用密碼還是會嘛對不對內部的還是會嘛我們現在就我們這些相關沒有公開的文件我們還是會逐段逐頁逐段逐頁嘛那既然要講到美國幾件事情第一個台灣跟美國有一個差別美國他們因為有很多文職的軍官行政軍官還有專門處理文書作業的人員在處理這些行政事務台灣的這類的人就比較少"},{"start":13274.651,"end":13281.355,"text":"所以如果要降低軍官的負擔的話或是軍人負擔其實可以增加這方面人力我不知道部長會考慮嗎"},{"start":13284.497,"end":13311.693,"text":"核密的這個做法當然就涉及到每一個業務承辦然後還有核定權者的長官那相關的這些如果講剛剛因為我也有委員指教是說我們是不是要有一個內部的一個集合或者是我們的情報部門的人員是不是要增加我覺得這個都可以來討論好 第二個第二個你可以看一下美國的做法"},{"start":13313.611,"end":13323.659,"text":"你看這個 你看他們每一段如果在表頭標示的話他們會去標示說這個是誰標示的而且還會很確定說他的解密的時間那我們國防部會這樣子做嘛"},{"start":13327.339,"end":13348.19,"text":"我們有在討論這件事情有在討論這件事然後第三個是他們其實都是用整合到目前是整合到 Word 系統還有郵件的所以他們在打字的時候直接就可以用插入的方式用軟體方式直接處理所以時間會比較快而且也會比較安全因為如果因為它整合"},{"start":13348.7,"end":13376.399,"text":"Word跟郵件系統所以假設這個Word裡面有機密的話它郵件是寄不出去的是 你講的這個就是我們現在要進一步去進去研發的是不是對 進進的部分因為現在以後一定都是數位的治理嘛所以一定不是單純的紙本所以最後在這個自動化的這個數位化的過程當中這些都是要考量進去的好 再來還有一個就是因為美國他們現在已經在整合AI系統了嘛"},{"start":13377.382,"end":13394.474,"text":"這個沒有掌握這個訊息就是他們現在要整個AI系統可能以後類似這個文件都用AI來處理可能在行政效率上可以更簡便也可以降低行政的負擔我們現在也是要朝這個方向來努力反正總而言之就是我是希望軍方的決策"},{"start":13395.555,"end":13416.141,"text":"第一個可以更精緻一點在還沒有很成熟的時候不要貿然推出我們願意來檢討但是施行我想我們願意隨時來檢討但我覺得這一件事情基本上大家會覺得說它是不是一個虛工但是我還是要強調說它是一個基本功"},{"start":13416.681,"end":13432.239,"text":"那所有任何的這個質疑或者是檢討或者是要求我們改進的這個部分我們都會虛心的來加以隨時來檢討然後精進調整這個我想我們都願意接受各界的批評但就是如同您講的"},{"start":13433.44,"end":13458.762,"text":"這個以後數位化的整個過程當中它分級分類能夠做得好它才能夠有效的在這個利用AI也好利用這個軟體本身也好它都可以有效的進行自動的一個分類的話對整個國軍在進行資訊治理資料治理的這個部分是非常重要的非常重要 不然的話美軍"},{"start":13459.743,"end":13467.487,"text":"為什麼要這樣推我們現在講的內部文件你們之前出的問題是對外的啦好啦 那就這樣 謝謝好 謝謝今天已經登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有蘇清泉委員 林立軍委員"},{"start":13487.745,"end":13491.596,"text":"還有林楚英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":13493.601,"end":13520.477,"text":"委員書面及口頭質詢的部分未及答覆的或要求補充資料者請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員有指定期限者從期鎖定那今天因為彈藥的部分也有很多委員有特別提到因為剛剛彈藥處長也有提到說因為我們裁測部隊所以我們鋼芯彈太多了那在可是鋼芯彈太多的情況之下我們連續打了20年"},{"start":13523.098,"end":13532.686,"text":"做這樣的訓練可是我們的產線卻一直在生產普通彈那突然一下子在今年缺了6200萬發的這樣的子彈尤其是鋼心彈就這個部分我們請國防部"},{"start":13538.89,"end":13561.916,"text":"提供近10年核定各軍種委託軍備局製造彈藥的單美售價請國防部可以確切提供那另外因為國防部的訓練有要求訓練時到底是用什麼彈這個部分請陸軍參謀長可以認真的去研讀一下再告訴我們好不好謝謝那我們本日會議到此結束散會謝謝"},{"start":13613.858,"end":13613.979,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"167053","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167053","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce045507f036b956ae7307671192a7c66aa7fca8e6801c49bdd42ffa54afed2a8c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"11:38:37 - 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因為有另外一個重要的會議跟趙偉先請個假 謝謝趙偉幫忙 不好意思部長 我這次在野黨的合作在野黨推動的台灣未來帳戶台灣Future Account我們的目的是希望能夠用國家的制度來支持育兒家庭也就是說讓孩子出送的時候就開始累積資源"},{"start":35.885,"end":61.342,"text":"那作为强化家庭的后盾那这个账户的所有权人是孩子本身那一直要到民法成年之后才能去动用去领用所以是让下一代能够铺成更安心更稳定的一个成长环境就是成为我这个标题投资未来投资孩子就是投资台湾的这个未来我先请教部长您简单回答你认为年轻人为什么不敢生养"},{"start":62.142,"end":85.444,"text":"您簡單給我幾個字從過去的調查當然是在他的機會成本跟他的育兒的經濟壓力上面就是經濟育兒的問題這個根據政大勞研所劉教授指出當然除了低薪高房價之外現在年輕人也擔心經濟力會延續到下一代喔部長你說不是只有個人現在面臨經濟壓力"},{"start":87.105,"end":110.701,"text":"包含未來的孩子都可能會繼續承擔這樣的壓力所以他不敢讓孩子出生這是一個很大的理由不是他自己會延續到下一代現行政策是低收入群有社福補助中低收入有部分的支持但是還有一群剛好不夠窮卻不敢生的家庭完全被忽略了其實他們這群人也是少子化的關鍵"},{"start":112.162,"end":140.427,"text":"在野黨所提的台灣未來賬戶某個程度在解決年輕人對育兒的經濟壓力的這個顧慮部長我先請問你你出生那一年我就不洩露你年齡了你出生那一年有多少嬰兒出生超過30萬拜託欸 40萬啦 41萬啦40萬9620人 41萬 部長雖然OK 但不夠精準那你就知道 那去年呢 你背一下去年2025年出生多少小孩"},{"start":141.314,"end":157.029,"text":"就十萬七千多 近八千你算數打一打 兩成六 沒中去年是你出生的那一年兩成六的出生率單看2025年一整年 這幼徒你看看這個死亡人口跟出生人口"},{"start":158.613,"end":181.903,"text":"這個就是生不如死嘛那事實上我們出生人口數下降已經連續60個月那總人口的這個負成長就是生不如死已經24個月請問部長行政院是不是真的有把這個長期這個現象生不如死視為國安問題它是不是國安問題你剛剛就跑到行政院去啦它是不是國安問題對對對它是國安問題這個絕對影響國家未來的發展"},{"start":184.602,"end":190.856,"text":"那國家少子女化到底花了多少錢部長少子女化政府到底花了多少錢"},{"start":191.724,"end":194.646,"text":"我們統計的從這個執政黨開始好了2017開始我們從107到114年我們投入在少子女化對策計畫大概是5913億5931億7年時間假設這個說法是很OK的那部長親口說了台灣的未來賬戶預計13年會花多少錢"},{"start":217.082,"end":245.175,"text":"如果按照我們現在的草案起步是個5萬第一年然後後來每一年是1萬就是到12年就停止但是18歲才能領支領13年的總經費才3841億受益人高達370萬人比起那個虛設的虛假的這個少子女化辦公室這樣這個台灣未來賬戶更省錢請問部長這麼經濟實惠的政策你能夠不支持嗎"},{"start":248.043,"end":269.168,"text":"這個說實在我看不出哪裡經濟實惠因為這個都是要花這麼多錢但是對於我們的目標是少子女化的問題來講能夠有多少的注意我真的是有很大的問號你花了5931億來處理少子女化症結果看到的數字是什麼"},{"start":270.596,"end":299.449,"text":"這個勤政運動衛福部一再用資源有限優先照顧弱勢這是一個這個錯解社會投資錯解台灣未來政府不是社會救助而是一個普及型的普及型的這個制度設計目的是讓每一個孩子建立一個基本起點他不是針對特定的族群補助發放補助衛福部一直拿這個兒少兒少的發育跟發展帳戶做對比我先請教部長這個政策推行多久了"},{"start":300.129,"end":307.163,"text":"儿少未来教育的发展这106年开始推的他8年的吗8年的这8年来实际服务了多少小孩"},{"start":308.308,"end":327.834,"text":"目前開戶的是三萬九千多多位部長你又說得出來開幾六千億結果呢目前總共服務三萬九千多個孩子部長認為這個覆蓋率足以回應全國性的少子化嗎我想這個是兩回事啦少子女化的對策那個5931說實在話84%都是在0到6歲國家一起養"},{"start":332.415,"end":358.031,"text":"直接都是补贴到这些家庭所以那些预算说实在话没有一毛钱应该要但是你看到没有一毛钱是拿来做什么行政啊什么都没有那个都实质上是到家庭的身上我觉得那个也不应该少钱少到哪里去这个我们都可以去追究但是结果呢成效不脏嘛不叫不脏嘛所以对这样的成效那么到底我们应该要加大力度"},{"start":358.311,"end":373.367,"text":"我再告訴部長去年有一篇報導就指出你剛剛講的那個賬戶那個兒少的未來發展賬戶即便符合資格家庭當中開戶率只有六成而且人均每個月儲蓄金額不升"},{"start":374.048,"end":401.469,"text":"反降 近半數的限制限市越來越多家庭只能選擇最低的500塊每個月大概就500塊很多家庭甚至沒有辦法維持每個月固定的儲蓄我要談的是說你利益良善去建立這樣制度2018年陳時中部長就承認弱勢家庭能力不足是主因資深志工社工也指出低社經家庭未來的這個用錢規劃因為他沒有確定性很高嘛"},{"start":401.909,"end":413.986,"text":"所以民進黨等於從8年前喔你8年就知道這個制度推行困難結果你還是選擇用8年來證明是不成功的8年前就知道困難8年後證明就是不成功啊"},{"start":414.726,"end":438.1,"text":"對 所以對這個兒少的教育還有未來發展我們值得再來檢討看看如何調整這個我們倒是應該要積極來做的現在你們都承認現在制度跟規模跟效果都很有限那麼為什麼當有新的制度構想出現時行政院跟維護部還是留在資源有限制照顧弱勢部長你的專業你的角色你就只能做配合嗎"},{"start":438.76,"end":447.17,"text":"沒有 從弱勢優先的角度當然應該要優先對一般的兒少我們用怎麼樣的方式來幫忙這個也可以討論"},{"start":448.203,"end":473.714,"text":"部長我希望你就是再回去就是把我們的這個計劃好好看一看剛剛這個鍾嘉明講錯了這個對存的每個月頂多是1萬塊沒有什麼對存要存多少錢然後去致富了沒有不是這樣設計的部長上週中榮傳出疑似非醫事人員進入手術台甚至操作這個手術器械的爭議那院方跟醫護人員回應說這只是廠商協助排除機械故障"},{"start":475.035,"end":492.096,"text":"並不是實際的醫療作為部長我們長期都在醫界我想你很清楚問題的核心不是影片是否真假而是說制度長期有存在灰色地帶許多第一線的醫護都公開指出廠商進入手術室協助操作這在臨床不是個案"},{"start":492.677,"end":504.307,"text":"不是個案 而是多年來默許的一個現象 請問部長第一 現行法對非醫事人員在手術內可以做到哪個步驟是否有清楚執行的一個界線 有沒有 你有沒有清楚的界線"},{"start":505.835,"end":532.924,"text":"跟委員說明在醫師法28條本來醫療有分為核心業務跟輔助業務醫療核心業務包含手術那麼這個就是要由醫師親自執行這個是沒有模糊的空間有清楚的界線那當制度跟臨床需求明顯脫鉤脫節卻只在世界上曝光後用個案處理那是否等同默許這個灰色地帶的繼續存在呢 部長"},{"start":533.663,"end":559.476,"text":"我想隨著科技的進步啊那確實有一些新的儀器這個要導入的時候需要一些技術人員的協助不過也僅止於協助在手術執行的本身還是要由醫師親自執行部長這就是您講的我都理解我理解但是事實上就是說你還是要去做規範嘛因為這個是一個就是房間醫師大象一樣啊就是你知道它曾經存在"},{"start":560.296,"end":576.07,"text":"那你如果沒有去就醫療安全不能用用一種公開的秘密去維持它是秘密要公開然後不能用這個方式去維持那主管機關也不能說當作不知道我們大概就當作不知道那希望部長你好好正視這一件事情"},{"start":577.091,"end":603.42,"text":"这个有关于这个技术人员进入到这个手术房可能还超过技术人员可能还甚至技术人都不是他应该是技术人员归类在技术人员他提供这些设备如何安装那么摆设等等这些技术人员那么应该要有什么样的规范甚至有一些这个什么指引等等的我们会来研究让大家有一个遵循"},{"start":605.2,"end":623.708,"text":"醫師的那個指導的範圍的內容您做了一個這個我們相當滿意的一個規範那很多重大的手術其實協助是一件事真的在執行要負上醫療責任的主刀的醫師他根本沒有界限這就是很清楚嘛部長這件事情你敢面對嗎"},{"start":624.859,"end":633.114,"text":"這個一樣 這個依法行政這個沒有模糊的空間那請部長注意一下這是在房間裡的大象好 謝謝 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邀請運動部部長 考選部部長就運動部組織效能與人才考選制度針對體育行政類課應試科目修正運動產業發展中心定位及多元人力運用機制之展望進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1794.121,"end":1794.942,"text":"請問各位上次會議的議事錄有沒有遺漏或錯誤"},{"start":1818.735,"end":1844.037,"text":"好 那因為現在現場委員人數不夠所以我們就之後再確認那緊接著我先介紹現在到場的委員有羅志強委員還有黃珊珊委員好 那麼緊接著再介紹應邀列席的官員那麼本次出席的有考試院的劉金鑫秘書長司法院的王梅英副秘書長權敘部的施能傑部長"},{"start":1846.019,"end":1861.825,"text":"還有人事行政總署的政務副人事長張秋元 張副人事長謝謝還有法務部的徐祥政次謝謝那麼其餘的列席官員我們就不一再一一的介紹並且列入公報記錄"},{"start":1863.089,"end":1888.047,"text":"那本次的議程分別排定的有專題報告就是立法院通過的警消公教退休金改革方案的具體執行措施以及四案的討論事項那麼審查刑事訴訟法第101條之一條維修正草案等法案那我們今天的這個報告及詢答的方式呢我們一例就採一併報告綜合詢答"},{"start":1891.485,"end":1917.918,"text":"那麼現在我們就一併進行提案說明及報告那麼會先進行討論事項法案的提案說明那發言時間是三分鐘那麼這個首先先請提案人臺灣民眾黨黨團代表黃珊珊委員進行提案說明謝謝主席還有各位官員我講今天黃珊珊委員可不可以到前面這邊來進行提案說明 謝謝"},{"start":1929.741,"end":1931.544,"text":"謝謝主席我想還有各位同仁以及各位官員"},{"start":1932.703,"end":1961.526,"text":"今天台灣民眾黨有兩個提案主要是針對新送法的相關的規範我們希望能夠更具體更明確那近年來的詐欺跟兒少性影像以及組織犯罪的問題越來越嚴重那這個犯罪不但有高度的社會危害性而且有高度的再犯之虞那預防性羈押的原因的必要我們希望在新送法101條之一的條文修正草案裡面提出來也列入所謂預防性羈押的要"},{"start":1962.486,"end":1985.747,"text":"有這樣的要件那這個提案今天看到法務部的報告是說他們競表同意也就是他們同意這個案子能夠列入所謂預防性羈押這是第一案第二案是台灣民眾黨介於司法院大法官會議解釋第665號解釋的理由書指出的羈押是干預身體自由最大的強制處分"},{"start":1986.565,"end":2011.502,"text":"僅能以之為保全證據的最後手段但是實務上勾串共犯以及證人的羈押室友目前遭到嚴重的濫用法院更屢次以立稿甚至空犯模糊的理由裁定來羈押被告違反憲法法庭113年度憲判自第一號的判決所揭示的無罪推定的憲法原則"},{"start":2012.322,"end":2031.444,"text":"也就是說羈押制度現在已經急需要改革此外在限制和禁止辯護人取得偵查中的羈押審查的資訊嚴重影響被告訴訟上的防禦權那現行法並沒有要求檢察官要續名事實而且提出必要的證據顯然"},{"start":2033.947,"end":2049.389,"text":"這個制度有很嚴重不足的情況為了確保羈押的最後的手段性還有強化人權保障以及遵循無罪推定的憲法原則所以台灣民眾黨凝聚了刑事訴訟法第93條以及第101條的條文修正草案"},{"start":2050.39,"end":2075.824,"text":"刪除勾串共犯或證人的羈押事由明定無其他替代手段且有具體事實足任有逃亡或滅證之餘才可以羈押並要求檢察官請求法院限制或禁止辯護人取得偵查中羈押審查資訊的時候並應續明事實還有理由以及提出必要的證據以上的條文敬請同仁能夠支持 謝謝"},{"start":2078.291,"end":2101.819,"text":"我們請王小林委員提案說明好 謝謝主席在座的各位委員那麼今天呢本席在這裡要向各位提出的是刑事訴訟法第108條條文的修正案這個是涉及到羈押期間長短調整的問題那重要的"},{"start":2102.939,"end":2126.072,"text":"修正目的就只有一個就是縮短現行偵查與審判中的羈押期限的規定以防止羈押制度濫用實質保障被告的人身自由以及無罪推定的原則那麼首先我們從人權法制的角度來看其實公民與政治權利國際公約的第九條第三項的早就明確規定"},{"start":2126.932,"end":2155.398,"text":"因為刑事罪名遭逮捕或拘禁的人應該要在合理的期間內審訊或釋放那聯合國的人權事務委員會也在第35號一般性意見當中更進一步的指出即便羈押的刑事合法但是只要是缺乏實質的合法性以及必要性過長的羈押期間省錢的羈押本身就會構成對無罪推定與人身自由的侵害"},{"start":2156.138,"end":2170.135,"text":"那麼我國司法院大法官釋字第653號的解釋同樣的強調羈押應該要符合比例原則與最小侵害原則這是例外手段所以羈押是例外手段而不是常態的工具"},{"start":2171.687,"end":2190.026,"text":"然而回到我國現行的制度這個問題非常明顯因為刑事訴訟法第108條所規定的羈押期間是從民國17年立法至今將近100年的時間從來沒有實質的修正過仍然維持現在偵查中不得超過"},{"start":2191.367,"end":2204.417,"text":"兩個月審判中不得超過三個月的這樣的一個時間規定那麼延長羈押的期間也相當的寬鬆所以這樣的制度設計其實是早已不符現代人權保障的標準"},{"start":2206.124,"end":2228.915,"text":"在實務上這也導致嚴重的後果近年來我們看到法院核准羈押的比率是高達近八成那麼羈押不再只是防止逃亡或是湮滅證據的保全手段而逐漸演變成為先押再說以押代查的這種押人取共的工具甚至變相懲治被告的刑罰"},{"start":2230.175,"end":2252.811,"text":"所以就出現了羈押刑罰化的現象那麼這個已經明顯的背離了無罪推定的原則如果我們再對照外國的立法例來相比較更顯得我國的制度是被偏離常態那麼我們以日本為例檢察官申請羈押之後法院原則上只准10天"},{"start":2253.612,"end":2276.419,"text":"必要时候延长一天最长也不过就是20天那韩国的制度基本上与日本是差不多最长的积压时间也是控制在20天左右所以相较之下我国的积压期间是显然过长而且也过于宽松因此本次本席所提出的这个修法有三个重点"},{"start":2277.359,"end":2297.296,"text":"第一个就是将侦查中羁押期间缩短为最长就是一个月第二个就是审判中的羁押期间也是缩短为最长就是两个月第三延长羁押期间无论是在侦查或是审判阶段都是以一个月为限并且严格控管次数"},{"start":2297.896,"end":2321.047,"text":"这样的修正并不是说是在纵放犯罪而是我们要强化检警与法院在合理的时间内能够完成侦查与审理的判断同时也促使像是拒保责付限制住居等等替代处分能够真正的被善加运用以落实羁押作为最后手段的原则"},{"start":2322.625,"end":2347.866,"text":"最後本席要強調的是監押制度關乎的就是人民最基本的人身自由那麼透過本次的修法不僅可以降低人權侵害的風險也有助於減輕監鎖負擔提升司法效率能夠讓刑事司法制度更符合國際人權的標準以及我國的憲法精神那麼以上說明也敬請各位委員支持本案好 謝謝"},{"start":2350.418,"end":2352.6,"text":"請吳宗憲委員提案說明好 謝謝主席我今天有兩項提案第一個提案是擴大預防性羈押的部分那就是刑事訴訟法101條之一那目的就是要保障社會安全第二是限制審判中"},{"start":2377.714,"end":2395.412,"text":"也就是檢察官已經起訴了然後現行法卻還可以無限抗告的刑事訴訟法404條目的是要確保法院的公平審判我先提第二個的重點是檢察官起訴後的法院審理期間並不是包括到檢察官偵查期間"},{"start":2396.793,"end":2416.088,"text":"首先對刑事訴訟法101條之一的預防性羈押這個是一個司法院跟法務部都贊同所以也就是這個部分比較沒有爭議因為現行的預防性羈押還有漏洞它對於一些新興的犯罪其實它的規範保障的範圍還不夠所以我要求"},{"start":2417.209,"end":2435.816,"text":"修法的部分能夠加入第一個 針對詐欺集團的部分第二個 針對性暴力的部分第三個 針對組織犯罪的部分那有關詐欺集團的部分因為我們看到像台版的簡樸在案其實他把這些人當作豬仔一樣這樣子凌虐 然後囚禁他們"},{"start":2436.696,"end":2458.769,"text":"所以這種的犯罪集團其實我們在偵查中我們就希望說對他們予以羈押而且防止他們交保之後繼續騙或者是繼續欺負這些被害人第二個性暴力的部分我們看到像創意私房 台版N號房等等的這些數位性暴力的犯罪這些人 被害人其實很大比例可能是我們的好朋友或小孩"},{"start":2459.602,"end":2483.387,"text":"那這些案子被害人最怕的就是被告交保之後繼續散佈這些私密的影像所以我們希望透過羈押去斬斷他們的犯罪工具第三個對於組織犯罪很多幫派的火拼 恐嚇其實它是具備高度的暴力以及反覆實施的狀況所以我認為這個必須要加入到預防性羈押裡面"},{"start":2484.467,"end":2503.833,"text":"這個修法的目的其實就是要保障每一位國人尤其是針對這些比較容易反覆實施的案件我們希望能夠擴大預防性羈押對於人民保障的範圍第二個我們要談的是刑事訴訟法404條也就是案件起訴之後要限制檢方的抗告權"},{"start":2505.388,"end":2524.744,"text":"我看法務部的報告是反對這次的修法他認為說會阻礙真實發現也就是會妨礙檢察官去發現真相但是我覺得這句話完全不合理而且是完全自我否定檢察官的職責我的草案是針對起訴後審判中我剛剛已經強調了不包括起訴前"},{"start":2525.945,"end":2542.865,"text":"那法務部呢各位檢察官因為經過長時間的調查終於把被告破獲而且當時在偵查中也羈押了偵查中羈押有四個月那既然已經起訴了其實理論上已經依照刑事訴訟法規定代表你們已經收證完成了"},{"start":2543.786,"end":2559.572,"text":"那這時候為什麼還會有這個發現真實障礙的問題呢那如果會認為有發現真實障礙的可能性就只有兩個嘛也就是說你們起訴前就沒有查清楚而是草率起訴這是第一個第二個你們想靠壓人取共來逼他認罪"},{"start":2561.052,"end":2588.39,"text":"但是如果押人取供這個不是司法爭議這是凝虐的所以甚至去年在法官論壇裡面只有法官進得去的法官論壇也有很多批評的聲音他們認為說案子竟然已經起訴了審理中羈押與否這個就是法官來決定就可以檢察官在這個時候該做的事情是你起訴的時候你再交給法院人犯交給法院法官接押的時候你必須在那個時候要把這個"},{"start":2589.471,"end":2605.862,"text":"被告需要繼續接押的理由寫清楚就好或者是你要實質的到庭論告現在很多檢察官起訴了就把卷證資料丟給書記官然後書記官去把卷證和人移到法院去然後法官在開庭審理要不要接押的時候檢察官根本不到庭啊"},{"start":2606.782,"end":2635.421,"text":"這個是現在的問題嘛那你不到庭你不去告訴法官他有接押的必要性後來法官沒有押了你又出來跳腳說要趕快抗告所以這個部分呢我們認為說檢察官既然你起訴那一天其實代表你偵查已經終結了那個時候你就應該要把相關的證據資料交給法官那不能說法官要不要押人你說這跟真實發現有關我覺得這個是否定掉刑事訴訟法裡面對於檢察官自我的要求"},{"start":2636.842,"end":2657.902,"text":"所以是去年在法官論壇裡面很多法官就在批評這個制度他認為說不應該讓法院審理的時候檢察官在法院審理的時候還有抗告權因為這一次一次的這樣子抗告而且是無限制的無抗告期限無抗告次數限制的這個"},{"start":2658.843,"end":2678.848,"text":"無限的迴旋其實是架空法官的獨立審判而且是逼著法官你一定要給我押因為你不押我就繼續抗告抗告到有一天你煩了那有一些法官也認為這個無限的抗告其實也侵害了他獨立審判讓他沒有辦法花心思在審理上面而是整天在看這個抗告"},{"start":2680.288,"end":2697.839,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望說這也要來修改而且不應該因為無限期的抗告而讓整個訴訟的制度拖慢所以我們希望檢察官是用證據來說服法官而不是在程序上面一直吵一直抗告然後搞到法官改口為止"},{"start":2698.539,"end":2720.844,"text":"否則無限抗告其實就是一種無限的施壓所以我要求修法不是削弱檢察官的權限而是我希望把羈押放到刑事訴訟法上的正確的位置這個沒有侵害檢察官的權利所以我希望第一個起訴的時候檢察官就必須把羈押必要性說清楚你擔心有逃亡串證再犯"},{"start":2721.644,"end":2745.315,"text":"等等的問題 第一個你要具體說明第二個 起訴接押庭的時候檢察官要去實質的攻防你如果你不去倒庭 法官放人那是你自己不願意努力那怪不了任何人 所以當接押庭的時候檢察官要倒庭 自己把話說清楚那辯方也能夠當庭的回應這樣子才是對的 然後讓法官聽完做一個"},{"start":2746.515,"end":2774.175,"text":"有意义的下一个裁定第三个审判中的羁押决定是回归法官公平审判才是正道我们不能让这个程序是无限循环所以我今天提了两个案子就是第一个透过预防性羁押来保护社会安全第二个我们要透过限制无限期的无限的判告次数我们来保障审判的公平那我认为该押的就押该处理的犯罪就用力的处理"},{"start":2775.055,"end":2800.146,"text":"社會正義展現就在這個地方我們不要用壓人來取共我們要展現的是司法的正義好 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那麼接下來我們先確定會議記錄那麼由於議事錄在之前就已經宣讀完畢 尚未確定所以我們就現在先確定議事錄請問各位委員上次會議的議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":2801.861,"end":2808.755,"text":"沒有 那麼我們就一時錄確定那接下來我們再請林倩琦委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2817.333,"end":2836.674,"text":"主席福輝同仁媒體朋友大家好本席在今天提出了刑事訴訟法第108條修正的草案回應我國羈押制度長期存在的一個結構性的問題也就是羈押期過長這整個羈押過長的狀態已經逐漸偏離了例外手段的定位"},{"start":2837.355,"end":2845.001,"text":"而且有一種刑罰化之餘現行的第108條關於羈押期間的規定是從民國17年制定以來將近100年沒有修正依照現行的法制羈押中羈押最長可以達2個月然後審判中可達3個月並得延長但是現在整個刑事訴訟程序也日益複雜案件審理的期程拉長"},{"start":2863.695,"end":2881.277,"text":"那麼實務上羈押核准率已經也高達了八成以上那麼羈押變成不再是例外而漸漸成為常態那導致被告在未經定罪前及長期受到剝奪人身的自由實質是侵害無罪推定的一個原則"},{"start":2882.358,"end":2904.515,"text":"那麼依照公民與政治權利國際公約第九條第三項以及聯合國人權事務委員會一般性意見第三十五條羈押應該僅限於具體且必要之情形被羈押者應於合理期間受審判或獲釋那麼我國已經將公約國內法化那麼羈押制度應該要與國際人權標準來接軌"},{"start":2908.718,"end":2935.687,"text":"所以本案在這個將偵查中那個羈押過長的期間由兩個月來縮短為一個月那麼審判中由三個月來縮短為兩個月並且同步縮短延長羈押之期間落實比例原則與最小侵害原則那麼請各位同仁能夠支持本案讓國家在追溯犯罪的同時也要嚴守人身自由與無罪推論的憲法界限以上 謝謝"},{"start":2938.467,"end":2965.835,"text":"是 謝謝林委員好 那麼接下來我們就請機關代表報告那每位發言時間三分鐘因為本期看了今天大家的幾個包含考試院司法院權序部人事行政總署和法務部所提的書面報告那麼考試院和人事行政總署的報告其實大部分也都是以權序部的為準那麼所以我想接下來我們就請權序部"},{"start":2966.503,"end":2982.299,"text":"部長報告然後緊接著就是司法院的王梅英副秘書長和法務部的徐錫翔次長就三位來進行專案報告進行書面的口頭報告那其餘的報告內容我們就列入公報記錄好 謝謝那首先先請市部長"},{"start":2989.063,"end":3008.433,"text":"主席 各位委員今天我想本部僅就有關退休金改革法案通過以後部裡面實際執行的狀況做一個扼壓的報告先報告是前面的警察人警察條例35條在去年的4月修正通過以後因為這中間有一些跟內政部討論的一個"},{"start":3009.634,"end":3029.771,"text":"一個一個一個過程所以我們大概本部在去年6月就開始進行執行這一個新的修正法案的一個作業的方式包括應該必須要重新審定大概快4萬位4萬個警察的這個重新的一個退休審定函那我們需要開發新的作業系統各式各樣進行所以我們"},{"start":3030.291,"end":3051.402,"text":"部裡面也在去年到本會報告我們部裡面有說大概用半年的時間說我們也是在去年12月16號就把這個事情函請所有的機關進行這個把我們的審定函轉發給相對的這個當事人在去年就完全已經完成這個工作那至於"},{"start":3053.823,"end":3079.731,"text":"在去年底通過了這個公教人員的這個退休金的這個法條37條38條跟67條修正案本部也是秉持一樣的一個原則那我們就開始在今年的1月2號下通函給所有的這個機關說明說這個這個事情本部會執行一個一個措施因為這個法例通過以後並新修正的法條規定並沒有指明這個生效日期也沒有"},{"start":3080.908,"end":3095.206,"text":"修正最後一條 另訂實施日期所以本部根據中央法規標準法的一個概念也是通案的一個方式我們就是以生效後的三天作為實施日期"},{"start":3095.632,"end":3117.091,"text":"那根據這個14日期完以後呢我們就大概也需要進行相關的作業那有些已經在14日期以前已經完成退休我們就會重新審定這大概會有18萬人那我們一樣要進行這個系統作業的一個開發那跟前面的慣例一樣我們大概預計也會在半年裡面把這個事情做一個完成那我們要重新發出這個審定函"},{"start":3118.312,"end":3144.659,"text":"至於說新法實施完以後會陸續也有人辦理退休我們根據新法來進行審定案我們會用新的等開發系統做完以後一次發出審定案然後進行後面相關的規定作業我想這個部分本部一向是根據通過了法律來執行應該做的事情以上跟委員會做報告 謝謝"},{"start":3147.349,"end":3152.521,"text":"好 謝謝施普長那接下來我們請王梅英副部長報告 謝謝"},{"start":3158.567,"end":3186.026,"text":"好主席各位委員各位先進大家早安那本院就相關的修正草案之報告如下敬請指教第一個就委員陳培宇等16人拟據了刑訴101-1條文的修正案這個部分是關於預防性羈押的那本院在114年9月18號已經函送行政院會嫌相關的修正草案那也做了相類的修正"},{"start":3186.846,"end":3211.919,"text":"因此貴委員之提案本院敬表尊重第二審查委員吳宗憲等17人拟據刑訴404條文修正案本院釋字665號解釋對於檢察官就法院所為的停止羈押裁定的抗告以做成核限性的解釋本院在114年12月下旬也召開了諮詢委員會"},{"start":3214.62,"end":3236.179,"text":"与会的专家学者对于现行法呢大部分都是表示认同的另外外国法律德国美国日本的法治呢都没有限制这一个部分检察官的抗告权第三审查台湾民众党党团拟据了刑诉93条及101条条文的修正案"},{"start":3237.221,"end":3243.337,"text":"第一點 93條文字部分的修正意見如報告內容 第二 101條部分"},{"start":3246.846,"end":3270.901,"text":"修正草案刪除羈押原因勾串共犯或是證人的部分本院在釋字第665號就勾串共犯或證人的羈押原因做過審查並未認為有違憲的疑慮如果刪除對於組織性的詐欺集團等的犯罪恐將無從追查隱晦不明的潛在共犯"},{"start":3271.381,"end":3294.126,"text":"及事實再來從外國立法例看幾乎所有歐盟的國家包括德國在內還有日本的法治也都是採取了相同類似的立法例那此部分見請再酌委員所提的檢察官應到場的部分試涉檢察官人力配置本院尊重貴院及法務部政策形成"},{"start":3296.005,"end":3311.825,"text":"再来病案审查委员翁晓琳等20人拟去的刑诉108条条文的修正案现行法关于积压的期间呢符合实务的需求而且兼顾了人权的保障并没有过长的疑虑"},{"start":3312.466,"end":3339.791,"text":"那和其他先進國家相較我國的羈押期間也沒有過長德國羈押期間六個月符合要件的時候可以延長每三個月審查沒有次數期間限制日本在審判期間羈押期限兩個月延長一個月在列舉的要件情況超過一個月一次的情形也是沒有羈押期間及次數限制那其他想如報告所記載"},{"start":3340.931,"end":3353.2,"text":"因此此部分修正見請再酌 以上報告敬請各位委員還有先進指教 謝謝好 謝謝王蜂蜜 那接下來我們請法務部的徐次長"},{"start":3360.583,"end":3368.77,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會並案審查及審查刑事訴訟法第93條101條第101條之一第108條第404條條文修正草案"},{"start":3380.099,"end":3393.587,"text":"僅代表本部列席報告並被質詢那知就個案報告如下一 陳委員培餘等16人提案本部競表同意為兒童及少年性剝削防治條例第36條第4項第5項"},{"start":3395.788,"end":3413.437,"text":"第三十八條第三項第四項規定呢是否一併納入預防性羈押室友健行參酌第二台灣民眾黨黨團提案修正形式說法第一百零一條之一部分本部競表贊成贊同第三吳宗憲委員"},{"start":3414.818,"end":3440.115,"text":"等二十二人提案本部竟表同意為兒童及少年性剝削防治條例第三十六條第一項第二項第三項第四項第五項是否修正為第三十六條第一項至第五項以符合法治體例敬請參酌第四吳委員中線等十七人提案草案限制檢察官於審判中對被告強制處分"},{"start":3444.471,"end":3470.686,"text":"之抗告權這將削弱檢察官與刑事訴訟法訴訟的制衡功能使上級法院無法監督下級審裁定且程序過度向被告傾斜一旦法院裁定失當檢察官無從救濟可能導致被告逃亡或串證重創司法公信力那另外德日立法律也為也均有保障檢察官與審判中"},{"start":3471.807,"end":3474.008,"text":"的救濟權意見現行規定並無不當進行參酌剛才吳宗憲委員有特別提到說審判中檢察官疑審的時候對於限制檢察官的抗告權的部分的話"},{"start":3491.436,"end":3512.953,"text":"本部的報告裡面有寫到會妨礙真實的發現我想這裡澄清一下我們本部的報告裡面並沒有這項的記載本部所要主張的是以審以後法官的裁定我們要有抗告權針對的是以審以後我們為了防止被告會逃亡"},{"start":3513.513,"end":3518.715,"text":"或者是繼續有串證的行為才會踐行說有一定的繼續羈押的一個裁定並不是為了發現真實因為本來真實的部分在我們疑審的時候檢察官都已經做確認了不會有剛才吳委員所提的說怎麼會到疑審的時候事實都還沒有確認我想這個本部報告裡面並沒有一併做澄清"},{"start":3537.505,"end":3548.987,"text":"那第五 台灣民眾黨團的提案 括弧一刑事作法第九十二條第二項規定呢並沒有妨礙被告訴訟權之餘 建請維持現行規定"},{"start":3550.154,"end":3566.783,"text":"那第二刪除刑訴法第101條勾串共犯或證人之餘的羈押要件將使被告可以輕易的威脅利誘證人或共犯那規避法律制裁讓檢察官無法即時保全證據強害犯罪增審的效能"},{"start":3567.884,"end":3587.722,"text":"目前沒有替代實施可預防勾串若刪除該羈押室友將嚴重阻礙重大犯罪的溯源斷根又現行羈押規定有嚴格的法律要件故落實法官保留制度已經可以充分保障被告基本人權應無修正必要那第三 瓜福"},{"start":3589.8,"end":3607.677,"text":"現行實務運作上多數的重大案情複雜的案件檢察官本會到庭來陳述又對於案情的明確或者是輕微者檢察官到庭與否無異於法院羈押審查跟被告人權之保障"},{"start":3608.357,"end":3631.968,"text":"四 草案要求檢察官應於法院審理羈押案件時到場 盡請在座第六 翁委員 小林等20人提案草案全面縮減羈押 延押期限 進行慎著聯合國人權委員會跟歐洲人權公約 均強調合理期間應依個案具體的情形判斷"},{"start":3632.808,"end":3654.748,"text":"並非侷限於固定的天數各國羈押期間各有不同相較之下我國羈押期間並非不合理那且我國羈押制度歷經多次的國際人權專家審查跟司法院解釋也未曾被指預約合理期間再來目前重大犯罪具有組織性跨國性跟高度"},{"start":3655.228,"end":3678.112,"text":"科技化的特徵顯非短時間羈押可以完成修正跟釐清為了維護真審的效能跟社會的安全應無修法必要那DC林委員 倩琦等21人提案也是全面修正羈押延壓期限本部理由同情 敬請慎著以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝徐市長那麼機關代表"},{"start":3684.179,"end":3709.012,"text":"均已報告完畢那相關書面內容就請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄那麼接下來我們就開始進行詢答那由於詢答後會再進行法案的審查所以詢例就是本會委員詢答的時間6分鐘必要的時候得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘並不再延長那上午10點半截止發言登記首先先請登記第一位的羅志強委員發言"},{"start":3715.836,"end":3738.424,"text":"有請全序部人事行政總署警政署消防署好 請這些單位的首長請面臨 請好委員長想請教施部長你知道2023年屏東民洋工廠爆炸有多少消防員殉職"},{"start":3739.928,"end":3762.18,"text":"有幾位消防員 確定的數字好像是五六位是不是 我不是那麼精確消防署 幾位消防員殉職 民洋工廠爆炸大概應該是六位 四位2018年桃園浸棚公司火警 幾位消防員殉職 請問部長請問消防署"},{"start":3771.493,"end":3799.223,"text":"不好意思因为比较不清楚大家应该有六位吧六位我印象很深刻我们这些打火弟兄在火场上为了救人冲锋陷阵最后牺牲生命他们牺牲之后我们中央官员是排排站都去攻击了嘛对不对部长对嘛"},{"start":3801.26,"end":3813.57,"text":"但是很遺憾今天公祭明天忘記我想請教我們消防署過去十年來我們多少消防打火弟兄因公殉職"},{"start":3817.716,"end":3836.321,"text":"訓詞的部分大概也有十多位以上十多位以上我看到數字都不太一致也有寫二十幾位的因為詳細的部分你再把數字準備給我那有多少人受傷或失能這部分還要再統計一下數百位有對不對"},{"start":3840.201,"end":3846.885,"text":"差不多 數百位有了有想請問我們那個警政署警政署我先請問部長你有看到台北車站隨機殺人事件對不對有報導誰制服暴徒然後追擊暴徒然後保障市民安全是誰"},{"start":3865.816,"end":3880.049,"text":"我想是我們的很多警察同仁還有一般市民都有做這個事情那我想請教我們的警政署我們過去10年有多少我們的警察同仁因公殉職我們這邊有統計從100年到現在有16位多少因為因公受傷或失能"},{"start":3890.09,"end":3918.736,"text":"商場的部分從100年到現在商場如果說私能的部分我們沒有再細分出來不過針對商場100年到14年的現在13000多人是商場受傷跟商場我想要請教部長在我們各類的公務人員當中錦霄英工殉職商場人數都遠遠高於其他的公務人員比例對不對"},{"start":3920.715,"end":3945.803,"text":"絕對的數字應該是一定的嘛因為他們工作危險嘛對不對那你也知道因為區域情勢緊張像我們的警校不但平時要維護我們國人的生命財產安全他們還要被當成第二陸軍跟軍人一起演訓甚至戰爭的時候也可能成為第一線的人員"},{"start":3946.959,"end":3974.634,"text":"這個應該是現在寶二好像被賦予有一部分這樣的任務不是所有的警察當然我印象中應該是寶二來 請我們的警政事務我們目前寶二它是有在防護關鍵基礎設施的一些機關非常謝謝也有負責我們的國家安全任務它算是關鍵基礎建設那也是國家安全任務是 它的"},{"start":3976.127,"end":4005.336,"text":"住地的安全好 谢谢啦我要特别讲请问我们部长助农肆虐的时候是谁在保护你我的安全部长是消防同仁吗暴徒杀人的时候是谁在保护你我安全部长这时候警察依法必须要做的事情敌人来犯时是谁在保护你我的安全是国军国军地下"},{"start":4007.964,"end":4035.866,"text":"但是呢當我們需要他保護的時候我們非常敬重我們的打火弟兄警察弟兄跟國軍弟兄可是呢當我們該給他的尊嚴該給他的退休保障該提高的待遇立法院給了請問部長立法院三讀通過法律請問群衆部請問考試院"},{"start":4036.977,"end":4049.468,"text":"有執行嗎我們有執行我們的責任就是要依法發出審定非常好 依法發出審定我們的景銷的退休的所謂的所得替代率"},{"start":4051.581,"end":4072.406,"text":"那我們提高退休保障立法院通過了請問現在警校我們領得到嗎我們的部的角色根據我們的主管角色我們就發出審定函發出審定函啊來來來去年一月三一月三讀通過總統四月公佈生效那我想請問你發審定函給相關人員什麼時候發的"},{"start":4073.373,"end":4100.152,"text":"在去年年底有沒有依法給付還是照舊法給付我們根據原來的退伏法的謝謝你啊繼續給謝謝你啊舊法啦新法我們今天提高的你有按照新法嗎那是要另外編預算我知道謝謝你啊你也就直接告訴大家嘛就是賴清德不編啊我沒有罵你喔"},{"start":4101.53,"end":4130.448,"text":"你講的對你做不到是什麼我們立法院挺軍人 挺警消 挺公教但是你全序部考試院做不到的原因是什麼三讀通過法 你做不到的原因是什麼是你全序部的問題嗎你只負責審定啦是誰的問題就是我們現在這個政府踩軍人 踩公教 踩警消啦"},{"start":4132.736,"end":4157.367,"text":"我剛講過發生火警火災的時候打火弟兄衝到火場去來去馳援犧牲生命我看到所有中央官員排排站啊全部去攻擊啊非常好啊攻擊完就忘記啊今天立法院記得我們軍人公教跟警校對國家的付出"},{"start":4159.707,"end":4169.975,"text":"覺得他們應該要得到該有的尊嚴跟保障所以我們三讀通過的法律就鐵石心腸的賴清德鐵石心腸的卓榮泰就是劇編按照立法院通過的預算然後每天民進黨就開始在外面講什麼叫巨神總預算是你劇編合法預算"},{"start":4188.749,"end":4217.439,"text":"你不編合法預算你欺負軍人 警消公教我們立法院怎麼去審這個預算所以我真的還是拜託我們賴清德總統也拜託卓榮泰院長當一個政府的首長三顆柔軟的心不多啦對軍人柔軟的心啦對警消柔軟的心啦對公教柔軟的心啦謝謝"},{"start":4251.107,"end":4278.824,"text":"我們先請翁曉琳委員 翁昭瑋好 謝謝主席那麼首先我想先請考試院劉副秘 劉秘書長還有權敘部的施部長人事行政總處的張副人事長好委員長 是"},{"start":4283.775,"end":4313.09,"text":"那麼我想這個剛剛其實羅委員也提到了有關於警消人員的所得替代率提高的問題到現在為止都沒有看到這個部會有提有編列預算那麼當然這邊首先要問一下就是這次的這個警消人員的所得替代率的預算那個差額的預算到底應該是哪一個機關來編列是權敘部還是內政部依照法例的相關修法明文的規定是行政院"},{"start":4313.635,"end":4330.201,"text":"是行政院所以就是內政部應該要編列預算而不是權序部不是權序部好但是據我了解好像現在是不是兩個機關就這個部分來講是有爭議我想因為照法因為法條上面我記得寫的就是行政院要編列相關預算"},{"start":4332.153,"end":4346.281,"text":"所以很清楚的基本上就是內政部不照顧退休的景蕭該編他不編所以剛剛羅委員應該講的沒有錯就這個部分來講的話就是賴政府基本上就是不願意"},{"start":4348.109,"end":4366.084,"text":"這個提高退休景銷的所得替代率所以到目前為止都沒有編列預算那接下來呢我想再就教就是循序部跟考試院因為我們知道在去年12月27號其實總統已經公佈了退休"},{"start":4367.465,"end":4388.064,"text":"公教人员就是已经公布了这个退休金提款法案那这个提款法案里面呢当然我们法条写得非常清楚也就是这个退休所的替代率会回到就是112年的水准那么就这个部分来说其实最重要的目的就是希望能够让"},{"start":4390.165,"end":4416.282,"text":"在107年退休金年改的方案当中让退休公教人员的权益能够让他止血停损所以我们并不是恢复到107年而是考虑到现在的物价的上涨各方面的因素所以我们将所得替代率恢复到112年"},{"start":4417.583,"end":4444.425,"text":"那麼這個法公布了之後事實上本席發現這個全區部那麼日前所做的這個所發布的新聞稿那麼竟然會認為說在針對113年跟114年已經退休的公教人員他們已經被扣掉的這個退休金那麼為什麼不能夠發還給他們對於他已經易扣的金額"},{"start":4446.127,"end":4461.361,"text":"已經預扣退休金的差額這個部分難道不應該要依法依照我們的公務人員的退休之前撫恤法第37條的規定它基本上就已經回溯到112年了那麼請問考試院還有學區部你們是怎麼樣依法解釋的"},{"start":4470.842,"end":4493.902,"text":"這個事的關鍵點是在這個法律新修正的法律哪一天生效因為總統是12月26號公佈28號生效在修正的條文中並沒有追溯生效的條文所以在等於是說在12月27號以前我們全巨部這邊不只是全巨部就是我們整個退休金的發放就依照舊法"},{"start":4494.582,"end":4512.875,"text":"那從生效後適用新法所以它的效果現在的修正文字效果會變成從新法生效起恢復到112年的好 謝謝秘書長剛剛說明我要講的就是你們讀條文你要從第一項開始一直往後讀到第六項"},{"start":4514.335,"end":4537.463,"text":"你第一項裡面基本上本來就講了本法公佈施行前退休生效者的每月退休所得就是於本法公佈施行後不得超過一替代率上限計算的金額所以我們是修單37條的第6項而且在這個條文裡面本來就已經有了這個回溯的意思否則的話不會講說這個付表從113年之後不再適用"},{"start":4538.496,"end":4566.627,"text":"那麼同時也講所有的退休之前跟之後就在本法公布施行之前或之後的所有的退休人員他的所得替代率就是停留在112年的這個標準那我們在整個的當時修法的討論的過程當中是非常清楚的可是現在變成你全序部你自己做了曲解的這樣的一個法律的解釋我們這個條文"},{"start":4569.222,"end":4595.695,"text":"給非常多的法學專家看大家不會解釋成像你們這個樣子的說已經把現在的退休公教人員已經扣掉的113年跟114年的退休金差額竟然可以政府自己扣在那裡不發還你們知道這叫什麼嗎這叫公法上的不當得利你們扣這筆錢是沒有法律上的原因的"},{"start":4596.577,"end":4614.047,"text":"如果所有替代率都恢復到112年這個對基金損害財富損害比較大的部分我們都願意依法執行的話其實沒有必要去在小地方做這樣的處理但是事實上你的說法就是你為什麼要在這個地方去做歪曲法律的解釋所以這是本心非常感到"},{"start":4616.489,"end":4633.826,"text":"真的看到考试院跟全序部你们的态度我非常的痛心是很多的公教人员都认为说考试院跟全序部难道不应该是所有的公教人员的大家长吗就你们完全没有爱护公教的这样的一个心情然后动不动"},{"start":4634.306,"end":4647.996,"text":"都是在做違反整個法律立法者當時修法本意的一個解釋同時來你們接下來說現在的這個之後的新的審定函你們會什麼時候發"},{"start":4650.38,"end":4661.624,"text":"大概需要六個月的時間為什麼需要這麼長的時間現在的系統不是就已經在了嗎系統需要修正系統修正需要這麼長的時間嗎現在新的發的審定函非常簡單就是未來所有的公交人員退休金的支領就是以112年的所得替代率為準你理論上你這個審定函113年以後的人沒有112年那個數字"},{"start":4678.283,"end":4693.662,"text":"113年没有122年的数字因为113年以后退休的人他不会有一个112年的数字那还有这个系统不是就是以112年的为准所以如果说他现在也是未来不管任何时候退休的人都要使用的所以这个系统要重新去处理"},{"start":4694.028,"end":4699.674,"text":"你們本來就在112年就有個系統就有個參數所以我覺得你們現在是把事情複雜化他基本上就是簡單的修一個參數就可以了他不需要像你們這樣還要重新再開發個系統再製作個系統"},{"start":4710.706,"end":4720.574,"text":"我本心認為說你們現在就是故意在拖延時間我們不用故意拖延時間我們要讓公務同仁有合理的執行時間然後這個宣告我們這次的退休金提侃法案是違憲嘛這個是兩個分開的事情"},{"start":4729.372,"end":4744.148,"text":"在我看來這就是一件事情我們要讓現在的公務同仁有合理的執行時間而且我們也參考了107年年改的重新核算時間跟去年警察人士條例之後我們重新核算的時間這個半年推估是合理的是跟委員說明"},{"start":4745.393,"end":4773.65,"text":"好那這半年裡面你們多扣的這些退休公教的退休金你們要連本帶利還給他們嗎跟委員報他們的錢就不是錢你們退服基金你們認為說你們繼續撲的錢才是錢嗎如果後面審定出來之後該補的當然要補但是委員您剛剛講113 114年這個部分如果當時立法原意上有希望追溯到113年因為要生效的話"},{"start":4774.531,"end":4791.449,"text":"在文件中需要表达出来在文字里面为什么因为这是非常清楚在我们所有的法案当时修正讨论当中以及从我们的第37条38条从第一项读到最后一项"},{"start":4792.421,"end":4815.844,"text":"就是所有退休在本法公布施行前退休和之後退休的人的所得替代率就是停在112年因此你之前給人家多扣的退休金本來就應該要發還好 那麼當然就是我本心知道你們現在跟行政院一樣就是提起釋憲之後反正能不動就不動所有的審定函然後都能夠拖拖半年"},{"start":4817.685,"end":4840.254,"text":"我們會透過其他的方式我們會要求如果說你們認為說你們這樣子的退休審定還半年才做出來是合理的話那我們來看看你們未來是不是這個考試院其他的預算的部分我們也讓你拖個半年你都不要有錢花這不是這說起來是很荒謬的一件事情明明就是個簡單的事可是你們今天要故意把它搞得很複雜然後政治化你們在心中還有軍公教嗎"},{"start":4845.168,"end":4856.308,"text":"重新審定真的需要時間委員施部長您還是大學教授然後來轉任藉調當政務官你不是不知道這些公教人員的心情"},{"start":4857.577,"end":4881.233,"text":"但是呢 本席認為說你在很多的這個議題特別是在推出性改革的議題處理上面你都沒有將心比心而且呢 處處是刻薄這些公教人員法律的解釋不是你權序部的解釋我們的立法已經清清楚楚了我想我們今天還可以硬拗拗成這個樣子讓本席真的是非常的感慨喔我不好是講說你們做的這樣習為非常的無恥"},{"start":4887.857,"end":4909.172,"text":"我們的生肖日就寫得清清楚楚的生肖日並沒有去追溯到前面去跟委員做這樣的報告總之就是說你們要拖半年嗎這就是你們的態度我們的立場我們沒有要拖半年委員如果妳了解行政事務可以去多問一下我們之前都是用這種標準的作業程序在處理"},{"start":4909.872,"end":4926.092,"text":"我也去問了相關的系統的開發基本上不需要這麼久的時間好那接下來我要問的就是說你現在依照警察條例另外審定的退收所的替代率你們說已經完成了37790人的案件的審定是所有符合資格的都已經審定完成了嗎"},{"start":4926.633,"end":4951.614,"text":"根据内政部给我们的解释符合的资格我们就进行审定那请问这次的有关于内政部移民署的相关人员有没有适用我想这是内政部的解释他并不适用那所以现在就是对于内政部移民署里面的相关人员他们基本上这个不在你们这次合法的推出审定函里面是吗是的根据内政部的解释好所以这个是属于内政部的问题那今天内政部"},{"start":4953.516,"end":4966.284,"text":"移民署沒有在 但是人事行政總署可以做解釋嗎當然如果移民署裡面有原來適用警察觀證他當然有 不是全部這有內政部來做解釋的有內政部的代表嗎"},{"start":4967.839,"end":4993.366,"text":"委員好那之前那個群聚部這邊有請我們的警政署針對移民署的部分哪些人可以適用這個警察人員的35條修正的內容那當時警政署有依照警察人員是條例回覆給群聚部就是最後在退休的時候是警察官身份的他就可以依照這個修正後35條來重新擬定他的這個所得替代率那以上報告那所以有多少人呢"},{"start":4997.452,"end":5000.645,"text":"我現在是講移民署的部分移民署房子叫移民署"},{"start":5001.766,"end":5025.746,"text":"我們可能要再跟移民署確認一下因為今天沒有請移民署好那之後麻煩請你們提供資料給本席因為這次在警察人員條例第35條裡面其實本來有提到有關於移民的這個相關的人員那所以就這個部分的話應該也要合理的應該是在適用警察人員的這個新的退休制度所得替代率提高的範圍裡面"},{"start":5026.687,"end":5052.508,"text":"好 然后接下来的话我想请教的是有关于全序部那么我们知道在去年10月的时候考试院通过了重大的改革全面调高直辖县市政府所属机关职等上限那么总计涵盖了590个机关3500个职务可是呢事实上就是在这一波里面去年的那一波大调升里面似乎没有包含公立学校服务的广大的这个职员我们是以情节机关为主"},{"start":5056.638,"end":5060.561,"text":"行政機關為主所以有關於公立學校的相關公務員我想這個部分我們目前你們沒有打算要調生嗎一併檢討因為我們現在知道在大學裡面還有高中以下的學校裡面其實還有一些公務員如果有其他個案我想我願意多了解但是我們這次的調生是以特定的職務做調生並不是所有人都調整"},{"start":5083.192,"end":5086.875,"text":"本期希望說你們能夠針對就是在學校服務的公務人員的職等要進行一個檢討調整畢竟就是現在在整個公立學校裡面的公務人員的職等是偏低而且長期以來都沒有調整所以可不可以就請你們一個月內給本期一個報告到目前為止在公立學校裡面的相關公務員他們的職等分配已經多少年沒有調整"},{"start":5113.113,"end":5120.223,"text":"預計未來要怎麼樣進行改革可以嗎我可以提供給委員好那麼最後一個部分這可能是跟人種有關那可以請兩位"},{"start":5123.145,"end":5143.653,"text":"这个部长跟秘书长可以先请回座那么我现在要讲的就是说本席在这个前两周去参访考试院的时候那时候其实书记官们大家有反应对于现在书记官的这个待遇还有他们的专业家籍偏低那么同时呢也针对就是有关于记录费的部分"},{"start":5144.433,"end":5170.348,"text":"那么始终没有办法就提高所以至于现在书记官还有相关的事务官他们离职率很高那么根据公务人员的加挤办法的规定看起来我本来以为是全旭部考试院可能会是加挤的主管机关但是目前是属于人事总组这里负责公务人员各个不同职系的加挤对吧对"},{"start":5171.451,"end":5192.838,"text":"是 那所以你們就這個部分你們會預計要來調整嗎跟委員報告 這個不管是司法院法務部啦所以是有關於紀錄書記官的這個他的專業佳績的部分其實都有持續跟我們人種處在做相關的討論有持續做專業討論來 我們請王富敏"},{"start":5196.482,"end":5224.544,"text":"你知道你们这个司法人员的这个相关的记录书记官等等这些标准他们的专业家籍是从什么时候现在是4700元是对这是什么时候制定的这个法务部知道吗我这里的资料民国86年的时候制定的30年都没有动啊是可能要请副人事长"},{"start":5226.232,"end":5238.688,"text":"張富仁市長是本席去參訪了司法院那邊的法官 書記官他們的反應修這個專業家籍也不是司法院有權利可以修他會罷到行政院"},{"start":5239.485,"end":5265.32,"text":"報到行政院幕僚是我們人事總署在作業所以可以被請王富密回去之後競訴像你們認為要調整的合理的專業佳節待遇然後報到人事總署跟委員報告過去都有非正式的一些討論司法院這部分是還沒有正式的函文司法院過去有沒有曾經有函文過希望能夠調升紀錄費"},{"start":5268.892,"end":5288.247,"text":"對 但是我們就是有一些意見的往返那如果這次事件再正式爆出來我們會行政院的相關的會審機關再來繼續做研議好 總之我想這個是個嚴肅的議題我希望司法院能夠多幫這個"},{"start":5291.261,"end":5307.898,"text":"這個基層的書記官還有就是各法官助理等等去多爭取權益那麼如果說該調的就要調那麼現在人事長副人事長這裡說因為你們沒有報對我不知道是不是這樣但是我希望就是人事總處也應該積極的"},{"start":5309.219,"end":5320.19,"text":"去調整各個職系的專業家級看起來不是只有司法院是民國86年訂定這個標準到現在很多的職系的這個專業家級都沒有調升我覺得這是個嚴肅的問題嚴重的問題希望你們能夠盡量做調整好嗎我們非常感謝委員利用這個機會幫我們爭取"},{"start":5327.597,"end":5356.706,"text":"那只要人事總署他願意支持我們的話行政上我們一定會是第一那個那個毫無延旦的立刻衝過去申請的謝謝好OK那就這樣子謝謝那就麻煩就是人事長還有好接下來我們請王一川委員發言"},{"start":5365.919,"end":5395.288,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請法務部徐次長跟司法院的王副秘書長謝謝委員長好次長今天跟你討論一下刑事訴訟法第101條關於這一個羈押室友這個有同仁提案要把這個勾串共犯或證人之餘把他拿掉那這一個部分"},{"start":5396.973,"end":5423.266,"text":"這個可不可以再請次長有沒有一些比較大的這一個通案你們把人不羈押以後放走以後會發生什麼樣的事情謝謝委員那我們現在目前看到的包括台積電工程的洩密案還有凱凱保母虐待兒童案還有我們最近的像跨國炸雞就是台版的柬埔寨案還有軍官"},{"start":5424.746,"end":5448.201,"text":"塗抹駕駛軍機叛逃案還有毒梟議員販毒案這些很多的案子我們一定是有把主嫌犯積壓起來讓他沒有機會跟共犯或者是其他證人來做篡證這個一旦出去的話整個案子的偵查作為一定會受到影響那這個對檢察官來說這個放他出去你們會影響你們偵辦的作為嘛那這個"},{"start":5453.257,"end":5458.16,"text":"有沒有哪一些是你們也把人家放了結果後來真的出事了不是你們去跟法官申請喔是你們自己的檢察官問完之後就讓他走了然後走了之後就真的那個傢伙就跑了或者那個傢伙就去勾串了那勾串完之後相關的這一個共犯或者證人就跑了"},{"start":5481.28,"end":5493.75,"text":"我們目前在執行上對這個都很慎重那也都會得到法官的支持所以如果像類似這種要篡證我們有提出具體的事證的說明的話法官也都會支持我們"},{"start":5494.622,"end":5520.211,"text":"但是如果委員需要一些比較具體的個案我們是會不會不是問個案我是說這個中間也許會有一些空窗有些是這樣有些是當時沒有發現還有其他的共犯所以一旦讓他交保出去了以後或者是沒有羈押他出去勾串的那個證人是我們沒有掌握到共犯沒有掌握到那勾串那個證人沒有掌握到他可能就跑了會跑"},{"start":5522.264,"end":5547.637,"text":"跑了以後你們就要站在這裡被罵了對對對 那我想到還有一個案子就是不過那裡都積壓起來因為大部分的都會配合我們對 就是如果你們把人放了然後就出事了然後你們就要站在那裡被罵了經常這樣嘛然後又說為什麼放人嘛 對不對好 那我現在請這個司法院的這個副秘書長"},{"start":5550.34,"end":5569.795,"text":"你贊成這個修法嗎這個我們今天的報告裡頭有提就是說我們事實上是持保留意見的因為事實上世界上各國呢就是說有關於羈押要件一個是保全人嘛就是說被告不要跑掉還有一個是保全證據但那個證據我們都知道證據有物證"},{"start":5570.735,"end":5591.69,"text":"那也有那個人證譬如說你就把那個通聯這些東西手機的這些資料把它銷毀掉了嘛那還有一個就是人跟人之間的那個串證嘛那串證有各種方式一個是你可能有性的就是去串證那一個是敵性的譬如說像比較那個嚴重的這一種性侵或是暴力犯罪的話"},{"start":5592.791,"end":5617.002,"text":"那這個加害人他可能又會再一次用暴力的方式來就是恐嚇威脅這些那個被害人比較弱勢的那個被害人那所以呢就是說世界各國我們去看就是說幾乎就是說像我們講歐盟國家好了歐盟幾乎是全部就是通通都有這個保全就是說這個人真的這個部分的羈押原因啊"},{"start":5617.956,"end":5640.927,"text":"對 那我說那有沒有現在委員會提案說這個叫兒少有關的預防性羈押就是說他特別列出了幾種就是說我們現在的規定裡頭特別列出這種特別列出來會不會越列越多預防性羈押部分是不是對就是不是勾串那個證人那個對 預防性羈押會不會越列越多"},{"start":5642.399,"end":5669.11,"text":"我想就是說這是隨著就是說這一種那個整個那個犯罪形態的那個演進像有一些像身衛身衛這一種那個的犯罪這都是後來新出來的嘛那如果說有這一種新那個犯罪的話在預防性羈押有必要的時候這個當然就要練那我想他最重要還是在一個必要性的一個控管上面OK 好那兩位請"},{"start":5670.103,"end":5675.946,"text":"接下來我們請這個考試院 紐約秘書長跟全序部的施部長委員長這兩天啊 事務看到說你們現在在訂算嘛算說會減多少這個公務人員這個退休的這個數字會改變嘛 有這個計算可是你也有說這個重新算的時候啊可能還要花幾個月的時間來訂算你的意思是說沒辦法讓人算就對了"},{"start":5700.444,"end":5722.293,"text":"用人齁 一個個案很久的一個個案很久的對 我們以前的經驗就是而且人 因為我們 報告委員喔我們整個部裡面就是一個師的一個科在負責啦喔不是我們整個部在做這個事情嘛那你們現在用系統來做我們就是 寫程式對 寫程式 重新在廠商寫程式然後要經過測試 因為這不能不對嘛你這樣啦 這樣"},{"start":5725.698,"end":5750.31,"text":"現在立法會如果鄉長再給你蓋一層你又蓋一層城市我們就是只要退休的東西就是因為它是非常精細的省得很準的連一天就不能差因為拿到人家審定的會覺得比較減一天那我請問一下這個城市弄完之後這個公務員可以自己算嗎沒有 還是我們要發出審定函沒有啦 他可以自己算"},{"start":5751.725,"end":5776.052,"text":"你那算的東西就公開給大家看我目前那個因為是內部的資料系統完以後因為資料都離開了算政府 我們目前沒有沒有啦 要個人 自己輸入啊可能我們有一個系統是另外一個如果你是按照現在的那個制度那個退休金 不會以前的啦我們是要提供他們自己方便試算但是那都不是正式的啦正式還是依賴我們我一件事這樣啦"},{"start":5778.553,"end":5802.386,"text":"大家喔 公開透明啦你們啊 點點啊 怎麼算會公佈 現在都看得到他就輸入他自己的資料 他看不就別人的啦可是他看得到他自己的啦這有辦法嗎我這個 我回去了解 如果我們系統都做好了啦因為你系統也是你設定的嘛對啦 都做好了啦要不要說讓個人可以自己去查詢這個他的一個一個狀況好 我了解啦好 來 這個祕書長"},{"start":5805.868,"end":5833.475,"text":"您這個上禮拜考試院院會有同櫃說要去釋憲嘛 是啊 叫這個三層式這沒有衝突沒有衝突 我們就是 這個是兩件事情兩件事情 上面就它的核限性尋求這個憲法法庭的裁判那另外一方面但是因為法律既然已經生效上路了還是要依法去做這個執行那現在這個審定工作就是執行的第一個步驟你也要準備就對了 對準備後如果是釋憲說這個違憲的"},{"start":5836.144,"end":5864.257,"text":"那這個就依照這個釋憲的結果來處理就停啊對 如果要 如果釋憲的有結果我們就依照不管他 看他是合憲還是違憲都會依照他的結果去做處理好 最後我是建議這個施部長我剛才說的那個事情就是說能夠當事人他自己輸入他自己的北京資料嘛都在那邊放唸他都用他自己唸嘛算算的 他總是每天看他的數字也很開心啊"},{"start":5865.726,"end":5893.049,"text":"要不然你這樣審定出來 用早期的數據出來我跟你說 你退役金就是多少有時候要用到個位數去他也有重返簿 因為那些都是電腦算的要到時候我們政府就算是虧欠他這個事情 因為系統的程式也是你們設定的啦要輸入的參數跟變數也都是你們設定的啦這塊回去研究看看 有可行嗎"},{"start":5894.79,"end":5908.96,"text":"因為已退的人他本來以前就有一張審定函啦既然我們要重新變更這審定函啦對阿重新變更我們都弄好了我來 再了解一下印作的一個狀況有沒有可能性啦好不好因為他自己也會生啦網路也會幫他生啦網路有很多好事之徒嘛他會幫他生 我在講喔你剩下的錢 還會多加多加到時候你的電腦剩下來 減一萬塊每一個個案都來找你"},{"start":5923.848,"end":5927.75,"text":"說不對 我們這個省財這協會幫我們省財就這樣全市部幫我省財怎麼這樣這一個大家計算的基礎這都公開就是在程式上怎麼讓個人可以自己輸入個人的資訊之後裡面內部的看這種資訊怎麼做資安以後能夠把這個事情讓當事人可以自己先試算然後可能有一些誤差那誤差"},{"start":5952.649,"end":5959.854,"text":"這個大家都能夠接受 但是有時候要查太多有時候是你的系統設計出問題也不一定有時候是這個當事人 誤解因為網路上現在有時候說了說了斷了不要有時候誤解 都有可能現在也有退休公務人員因為說要退縮到很早很早以前這個網路有人也有人會這樣說雖然提案的這一個委員 去年提案的委員一再解釋 一再解釋說沒有要回到最早啦"},{"start":5982.782,"end":6003.139,"text":"但是公務員總是會算如果回到最早以兒傳兒母到母都不會太少好不好所以這個計算的方式也去研究看看在資安的保全的這樣的狀況之下讓個人來能夠有這樣的了解我來跟同仁 紀董哥來研究看看好 謝謝多方要考量好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們請林慶琴委員發言"},{"start":6018.715,"end":6032.233,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們翁昭偉府會同仁 大家好那麼我先請 就今天的議題請司法院跟法務部好 請王富密還有徐次長"},{"start":6035.473,"end":6065.013,"text":"委員早蔡宜早安剛才本席針對今天一些的提案做了一些說明我們在這個部分再更精進的來做一下討論跟請教我們今天這個審查刑事訴訟法羈押相關制度的一個修訂整個社會其實意識到這個羈押作為一個很嚴厲最嚴厲的一個強制處分之一然後在人權的保障跟司法效率的面向我們今天來討論這樣一個制度是不是就制度面來講是不是周延"},{"start":6065.933,"end":6091.509,"text":"本席来引用司法院去年7月15号的调查报告整个报告聚焦在台研公司陈起玉案引发的争议当时台南的地方法院认为不积压的事由吴保请回后结果被告逃逸了结果引发社会对于法院是否延宕审理检方是不是没有善用科技等等这样的疑虑"},{"start":6093.05,"end":6105.349,"text":"整個調查顯示各地方法院跟檢察署對於什麼叫做重大什麼叫做矚目案的認定標準不一也交由各地方來認定有沒有需要再監督的機制"},{"start":6107.572,"end":6129.594,"text":"那這個差異可能會影響到強制處分的即時性跟明確性所以本席在這邊就請教你們三個問題第一個是那麼司法院跟法務部你們可不可以說明一下你們目前對於所謂重大矚目的一個標準有沒有相對比較起義的一個看法那這個部分是不是"},{"start":6130.775,"end":6147.256,"text":"在社會疑慮下有一些更精進的空間那本席認為如果能夠有一些比較一致性的指引或制度性的規範那麼避免積壓審查的這個節奏因為認定的差異產生了程序的落差因此也引起了社會的疑慮"},{"start":6148.337,"end":6165.955,"text":"那麼第二個部分是那關於強制處分跟專庭的一個推動專庭制度的推動那麼羈押搜索限制出境出海的強制處分現在交由這個專屬的強制處分專庭來審理那算有助於形成穩定的一個審查的標準那避免"},{"start":6167.276,"end":6182.259,"text":"審審審的法官來產生這個預斷但實務上有一些法界的專家指出整個運作上還是有一些制度性的風險也就是說部分的地方法院會因為地域因素或個案的屬性然後讓檢察官或警察可能會傾向選擇某些特定的法院來申請強制羈押處分那麼以台鹽的這個案子為例"},{"start":6192.941,"end":6222.239,"text":"那麼台南地方法院51位法官當中的4位在這個整個強制處分的專庭那是不是你們會不會認為這樣子一個比例比較偏低那難免有些案件會集中在某一些法官的身上那影響到整個審查的品質那最主要外界的觀感可能也有很多的疑慮所以你們是不是可以說明一下那個前述的這個問題那目前有什麼樣一個做法本席還有第三點那還是你們要先就前面兩點先做一個回應跟說明"},{"start":6222.83,"end":6238.564,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教有關於重大矚目的案件我們是有定標準的在司法院所定的法院辦理偵查中申請羈押重大矚目刑事被告案件注意要點中"},{"start":6239.264,"end":6263.432,"text":"的第一點他就已經有對什麼叫做重大刑事案件還有什麼是那個矚目案件有做一個規定有做一個決定那所以你們在這樣一個規定下就還產生了某一些讓整個社會很驚訝的這樣子一個狀態那這個部分你們是在你們的標準上跟實務的運作上是不是有一些需要再檢討的空間因為就是說那個"},{"start":6264.272,"end":6279.851,"text":"案件犯罪那个类型呢还有事实的那个状态事实上千变万化所以说它不可能就每个具体的那个情况做规定它势必有一定就是规定的时候呢要见某部分的那个抽象性那这时候就要看"},{"start":6280.532,"end":6284.616,"text":"法官他怎麼去認定我想他會存在客觀上的情形有關於專庭我們現在除了比較小的法院之外像福建人就很少這些之外都有設專庭"},{"start":6300.47,"end":6313.745,"text":"那專庭事實上它是有好處的就是幾年下來呢它運作的也非常成熟因為就是說第一個是那個專業化因為現在刑事案件的那種種類越來越多那個有關於那個"},{"start":6316.028,"end":6341.989,"text":"強制處分這個部分呢他委由那個專庭來做他可以達成就是大家對於這些那個案件就是的熟悉度還有他們的那個標準也會比較趨於比較那個統一啊就是那所以本席剛才講到的那這樣子您說當然專業上有一些累積那累積之後會不會也有一些比較特定獨斷的一個取向呢這是本席這邊所提出來的就是說人數上然後您說專業上那可能"},{"start":6344.651,"end":6351.016,"text":"會不會久了就會有這樣一個比較獨斷的取向所以會變成警察或者是警察官特定的一個選擇呢"},{"start":6353.444,"end":6377.246,"text":"我想這個獨斷這個應該是一個評價上的那個問題啦就是一般其實我覺得他們對於整個那個強處人那個有專庭的設置大部分其實都還蠻那個肯定的對那本席這邊提出來其實這個面向應該也是值得思考你們是不是也可以就這個部分就是當我們累積了很多一致性的一個想法的時候呢"},{"start":6377.546,"end":6396.542,"text":"那或許是不是在某一些選擇上就會朝向某一個取向那會導致本席這邊所講的有特定的一個選擇你們是不是可以就這個部分也去做一個討論我想也是有人也是有相關的專家有這樣一個反應好不好謝謝委員指教"},{"start":6398.363,"end":6417.632,"text":"第三個部分在現行的制度下科技監控是一個羈押的替代處分類似像這樣羈押理由為前提需要有存在的羈押理由為前提但是法院認定不具羈押事由的時候檢方也沒有辦法申請科技監控法務部跟司法部是不是可以說明"},{"start":6418.152,"end":6445.897,"text":"那未來是不是在有可能不侵害人權的前提下然後透過制度的設計來降低這個院檢認定落差所可能產生的逃逸的這個風險法務部或者是法務部也要做一個回應或我先一個大的回應其實今年從去年以來那個有關於那個科控那個使用那個比例已經非常非常高了"},{"start":6446.337,"end":6467.105,"text":"那個整個陳述有達成非常高的比例這是我先一個補充說明我想透過我們的器材的精進還有我們的研習我們提高我們檢察官跟法官使用的意願所以這個科控我們是提高了那相關的一些作業或者是其他替代的我們還會跟司法院來研議"},{"start":6468.541,"end":6475.765,"text":"所以本席這邊所談的最主要就是一個可預期的一個設計不會讓每一個個案讓大家都覺得為什麼這個個案是這樣那個個案是那樣然後再加上一些政治性的連結那就讓社會經常感覺好像這個標準不一"},{"start":6486.87,"end":6506.048,"text":"那可能個人好惡又會影響整個案件的一個走向所以這個部分就是說這個一致性的標準是不是能夠在不失數也不失守的情況下然後來做一些更精進的研議好不好那第二個部分本席要請教法務部跟衛福部副秘書長謝謝"},{"start":6509.998,"end":6523.713,"text":"這個部分本席要針對監所的第一線針對是不是我們整個國家有沒有達到一個基本的人權保障的要求來救教那麼依據這個羈押法跟監獄刑刑法的規定"},{"start":6524.794,"end":6551.48,"text":"為了要照顧安置受刑人吸入之子女監獄應該規劃適當的活動空間並提供必要的設施子女的戶籍所在地之地方社會福利主管機關也應該要提供必要的協助整個調查法務部跟衛福部你們針對監獄內生活模式跟環境並不是那麼的沒有做相關的系統性的評估"},{"start":6552.04,"end":6578.708,"text":"那對幼兒的這個身心發展的影響也沒有辦法很妥善的一個合作適切的藝術一些資源那麼導致了這個有點違反兒童權利公約的一個情況那整個基本上來講就是場所的管理還有介護的管理甚至對孩子哭泣的這個處遇方式不但沒有建立一些支持跟同理的育兒環境反而加重了親子的一個心理的壓力而很嚴重的是"},{"start":6579.508,"end":6606.197,"text":"尤其是非本國籍西陸入監的受刑人那語言的隔閡無法充分理解監所規定的時候這樣子的情形又更越發嚴重那本席這邊提一個案例就是桃園女子監獄那113年的時候呢這個親子園地受刑子女的人數有的時候多達24人然後連續6個月每個月都超過了這個核定的人數"},{"start":6607.278,"end":6619.532,"text":"核定人數是21人大概最多的時候都24人如果在連同場設收容的一般修行人每名兒童可以使用的空間只有3.1平方公尺遠低於法務部櫃部所訂定的每一個兒童應該有8平方公尺的標準"},{"start":6626.841,"end":6650.102,"text":"所以在監所超收的情況下就地方社會福利機關也沒有辦法掌握實際收容的一個狀況那麼各地的辦理水母入監視切性評估時你們是如何來評估對符合子女最佳的利益那是不是有把監所的環境跟超收的情形一併納入考量父母如果已經有這樣的狀況已經蠻辛苦的了"},{"start":6652.324,"end":6666.12,"text":"那孩子連同著一病在這樣一個情況下在他人生有這麼樣一些印記其實我想都不是太健康所以本席這邊要請教兩個部會目前 監索對子女的照顧"},{"start":6667.681,"end":6677.169,"text":"沒有符合這個CRC等人權標準的情形那你們如何全面的評估跟改進桃園女監這個個案已經明顯的低於空間標準的一個場設你中長城的擴建計畫當中怎麼樣來優先考量相關的育兒設施在擴建完成前怎麼樣來避免讓幼兒在這種不適切的環境中暴露本席要請教兩個部會就個案還有全面"},{"start":6696.284,"end":6722.552,"text":"目前怎麼個處理柯委員報告因為今天那個矯正署並沒有派人來列席那市長這邊可不可以就一個對 我們對這個問題我們是也看到也面臨到不過我們監所這邊也已經非常非常的努力第一個 在空間的使用上我們會盡量排除一些困難加大它的活動的空間"},{"start":6723.592,"end":6749.029,"text":"這個都已經在做了那再來就是跟衛福部這邊也密切的合作如果有一些醫療或者衛生方面的需求的話我們也會跟他有充分的聯繫我想我們監所針對這個問題真的非常的認真在執行那就因為他是超收也超過了原來監所的設計的原來的想法所以在現有的空間因為"},{"start":6749.509,"end":6766.83,"text":"我們一些的金手還沒驗收完成在空間有限的情況之下我們會盡量讓它有多的空間來使用你想的這個是個案的空間我想這一個全面性的問題應該整個法務部可以來做一個整體的評估跟處理我們針對這個問題會審慎的來研究"},{"start":6769.963,"end":6790.403,"text":"好那個案的部分就是在比較即時性的部分我想是不是可以趕快找出一些即時性的因應跟處理方式是會我們會研究好謝謝那最後是關心本席要關心那個整個少府的這個問題我想本席在這個整個會期已經提很多了"},{"start":6791.304,"end":6819.832,"text":"我們再還是提醒一下少年事件處理法的第42條第5項跟第6項我們期待法院來召集諮詢會議串聯教育 社政警政跟社安的資源及早介入整合但是司法院目前好像還沒有一個執行的模式人力的配置跟教育訓練的準備周全你們在去年的報告裡面去年11月18號的報告裡面也做這樣的陳述但是整個各地法院的負荷非常"},{"start":6820.552,"end":6827.097,"text":"很重食物上其實極少召開這樣的會議在會議裡面還有食物型的一些做法我想真的在現場確實是很困難現在很重要的就是每個單位的方案的內容還有分工的界限還有開案的標準有點不太熟悉這個當然有本席一直在講的基本的一些問題"},{"start":6845.971,"end":6860.985,"text":"但是我們在實務操作其實有效的跟法院端形成跨網域的合作其實還是真正有一些困難我想最近大家要抗議的就是轟動的戈井案這裡面也是有一些呈現本席一直談一直談所以在最終本席想請教的是"},{"start":6866.03,"end":6893.187,"text":"那麼重大案件來揭示問題之後呢那目前我們推動跟法院端跟這個地方政府特別是教育局處設置單位之間明確的聯繫窗口跟標準化協作的流程你們的具體作為怎麼樣去避免資訊落差成為少年案件的一個破口那這個部分是不是可以給本席做一個回應那本席在整個會期裡面也一直談到那中央的這個平台"},{"start":6893.587,"end":6900.972,"text":"雖然副秘書長您這邊也有提到說應該行政院這邊來建立但是是不是你們跟行政院這邊的一個推動像剛才有其他的委員講到我們長期書記官30年費用通通都沒有調高我想您也希望人事單位的一個支持有的時候就你必須要先提出來或者是可能人事單位會發現不過通常都是第一線的我們才會發現這樣一個問題"},{"start":6924.408,"end":6945.814,"text":"發現的時候有的時候說這麼久其實常常要做滾動式的檢討我們有可能在很大的業務量裡面就忽略掉某一項所以本席這邊講的是這樣一個少年事件少婦會的一個中央的平台我想在今年我們其實也討論了很多不知道你們現在目前針對這個部分跟行政院的一個"},{"start":6946.434,"end":6958.608,"text":"不知道你們有沒有提出或者是有沒有跟行政院的相關單位來研擬這樣一個可能性因為它影響的就是我們食物在地方上的操作我們想的當然是以輔導先行可是這個輔導在一個卵性的執行程序當中就會變成有點鬆散"},{"start":6967.478,"end":6987.579,"text":"那是不是可以透過中央這樣一個平台然後給各地方一些比較強力的支持那最重要就是說那你們跟行政院這邊是不是有比較積極的已經有做一些積極的溝通了嗎還是只等著本席這邊再幫你們跟行政院要做一些嫁接我想這個部分再請教一下副秘書長"},{"start":6989.023,"end":7010.962,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分先前也有向委員報告過因為這個部分還沒有涉及少年犯罪所以說他這時候還沒有司法權介入的情形他完全是一個行政層次所以說這個部分有關於少婦會他怎麼運作跟他的權責 我們司法院真的無從介入"},{"start":7011.682,"end":7038.593,"text":"那當然也是後來這個整個法律調整了之後那你們就沒有這樣一個權限但是不是就在實務的運作上我們就解決問題的層面上你們有機會來跟行政院來做一個溝通嗎本席當然也是在努力跟行政院這邊來做這樣一個推動但是你也知道這實際上的一個運作因為這個部分司法院完全沒有職責所以我們也無從介入說少府會他應該怎麼樣那個運作"},{"start":7042.468,"end":7062.356,"text":"那本席是認為就是說雖然是職權的這個問題但是我們針對事情的解決也是可以想辦法來積極處理這是一個建議那當然可能在政府部門大家針對這整個各自的職司有太多的限制那要不然但是你們是不是也可以請這個政委這邊"},{"start":7064.097,"end":7082.556,"text":"或是一些私下的溝通我想你們過去都曾經做過這樣的業務那透過私下的溝通能夠讓這些事情在轉換的過渡期間呢那目前在實地運作上的不足可以透過一些溝通來把它連結起來這是本席的一些本席的用意啦"},{"start":7084.117,"end":7103.227,"text":"提出這樣的建議希望如果有機會我們就針對目前少府的問題能夠用各種管道來處理好不好最後就提醒一下剛才幾位委員都談到公教的有關於"},{"start":7105.509,"end":7122.068,"text":"軟體的這個寫作這個問題那我這邊提一個建議我還是要釐清就是說不好意思就考試院這邊假設在你們先說六個月的這樣一個期程那我們知道其實在資訊資訊的這個專業度上有的時候就是如同翁委員今天在質詢的"},{"start":7123.129,"end":7135.306,"text":"在專業上或許有些時候就是一個參數的問題但是王委員提的是他提的是另外一個可能性就是說未來是不是也可以給個人有機會去做一個檢視那本席是認為以現在台灣這樣一個AI的"},{"start":7138.59,"end":7143.456,"text":"國度我們在資訊的這個軟體程式上的寫作應該不至於要那麼長的時間所以是不是可以請這個考試院相對比較積極一點雖然規定的時間是這樣但是我們為了所有相關人的一個權益我們或許可以更積極的然後在速度上來推動的比較快一點"},{"start":7158.112,"end":7179.765,"text":"那我覺得汪委員的建議也很不錯啦未來如果能夠讓個人也可以計算的話那我想這又是另外一個這個城市性的問題所以本席這邊提一個建議就針對目前會影響到相關的權益人的這個部分是不是速度可以加快一點那至於那個汪委員那個很好的一個建議那我覺得也可以減少未來一些問題那我相信城市應該是這個關係到大家應該不至於說"},{"start":7182.926,"end":7197.798,"text":"會出錯啦 但是有更多人來檢視應該是相對更完善一點 好不好那本席在這邊針對考試院這個部分做一個建議 好嗎謝謝委員意見啦 我們絕對不會刻意去拖延他那我們就盡快啦 盡力喔 謝謝好 謝謝林委員那麼接下來我們請審法會委員發言"},{"start":7218.844,"end":7238.093,"text":"主席各位同仁我們今天的委員會議大概主要是三個部分第一個是考試院有關警消退工公交退休金的改革的部分第二個是第二個部分是我們上次其實已經進行過審查的有關於"},{"start":7239.674,"end":7266.717,"text":"這個刑事訴訟法101條之一這個預防性羈押的修正條文這部分其實大家也都有高度的共識了應該比較沒有問題所以我今天大概比較希望集中在討論的就是有關第三個部分這後面三個有關刑事訴訟法的修正案包括404條 93條 101條 108條這幾個修正案在我看來都其實這幾個修正案再提出來就其實引起司法界極大極大的"},{"start":7268.137,"end":7292.904,"text":"討論跟爭議跟質疑但是我想說今天我們在一併的一個呼嚨的把這三個主題把它鬥在一起這個部分我希望說能夠提出來討論這個是受到司法界非常關注的一個有關尤其是有關於相關的這些偵查中審查審判中的這個羈押制度的修正這部分我希望來做討論所以這部分我是不是先請我們法務部"},{"start":7299.844,"end":7317.204,"text":"委員長市長早剛剛我們講的這所謂第三部分這個刑事訴訟法相關的部分其實它裡面又有好多個部分的這個羈押制度的相關的修改包括這個第404條是有關這個強制處分的裁定不得抗告的部分這個是一個那另外這個"},{"start":7318.986,"end":7344.5,"text":"這個刑事訴訟第93條有關於偵查這個偵查中的這個羈押審查程序的相關規定這個又是一個部分再來是兩個爭議最大的部分第一個是101條有關於刪除這個羈押的事由刪除這個勾算證人跟這個勾算共犯的這個部分作為羈押事由這個部分爭議非常大這個部分等一下來討論第二個另外再來一個就是這個"},{"start":7346.942,"end":7373.042,"text":"108條有關於縮短羈押期限這個部分也引起很大的爭議那我就因為怕時間不夠從爭議大的部分我們先來討論首先是這個有關於第101條的行事做法第101條這個羈押適由的這個修正案他這個在第一款的第一款的跟這個第一項的跟第一款第二款第三款"},{"start":7373.943,"end":7396.503,"text":"四個部分都有做修正包括這個第一項的這個有關於這個增加這個且無其他替代手段作為積壓式油這個是第一個部分在第一款的部分把這個事實加上具體兩個字具體事實這個部分其實也有值得討論但是真正引起最大最大爭議是有關第二款第三款"},{"start":7397.814,"end":7419.888,"text":"有關於這個勾串對 有關於勾串共犯證人之餘的這個部分在修正案中把勾串簡單講就是說有勾串共犯跟勾串證人之餘不能當作羈押的理由這個部分引起最大的爭議這個這個"},{"start":7426.108,"end":7450.55,"text":"這個修正案一提出來 立刻就引起了我們包括司法界各界的嘩然簡單講就是嘩然了大家聽到覺得怎麼會有一個負責任的政黨會提出這樣子的一個修法呢怎麼會對於所謂勾串犯人跟勾串證人變成不能夠羈押 不能當作羈押的室友呢"},{"start":7451.551,"end":7475.71,"text":"這個部分包括這些檢察官的這個團體 像這個建清檢改包括許多的這個檢察官 甚至這個法官也都提出了相關的質疑那我們來講說這個有關於這個勾串把這個勾串從這個羈押的室友把它拿掉的最大的"},{"start":7476.633,"end":7488.052,"text":"的影響這部分我有看到你們的書面報告其實所謂勾串共犯跟證人他作為羈押的室友並不是中華民國法治的發明也不是我國所獨有"},{"start":7489.525,"end":7517.823,"text":"事實上不管在美國在德國在相關的進步的這些法治國家裡面勾串共犯騷擾證人相關勾串證人這個都是絕對是重大的羈押的理由對這是保全證據必要手段所以為什麼我國現在有什麼樣的條件有什麼樣的事由有什麼樣的形狀變更讓我們有必須要做這樣子的修法呢是不是請法務部說明一下"},{"start":7519.494,"end":7547.014,"text":"沒有 很簡單 你回答兩個字 沒有沒有任何的理由說我們要把這個勾串共犯跟證人這個拿掉你如果把這個拿掉之後 簡單講你剩下保全這個不能夠勾串共犯跟證人你只剩下什麼 剩下拒保 責負 限制居住相關這幾個替代處分這種拒保 我簽名 我保證不會去勾串證人"},{"start":7548.476,"end":7569.166,"text":"或者是我責負 或者是我限制住居就可以防止這個證人的勾串嗎可以防止對於這個共犯的勾串對於證人的騷擾跟勾串嗎完全沒有辦法替代吧對 這個對證據的保全跟將來的訴追絕對會造成非常非常大的影響"},{"start":7570.987,"end":7586.405,"text":"尤其這不是不只是人權的問題啦這包括有沒有辦法防止篡共這種尤其是現代的這種典型的共犯型的犯罪集團式的犯罪我們在於對於證人對於這個共犯之間的勾篡以及他對證人之間的騷擾這個絕對是最"},{"start":7588.968,"end":7603.875,"text":"最嚴重的羈押是有啦那現在現今的尤其是大家國人不管哪個政黨大家所在講的現在的這個是詐騙案件每次主題一排詐騙案件大家屁屁叫我們詐騙案件我們這個詐騙案層出不窮大家辦案辦不下去"},{"start":7607.219,"end":7635.631,"text":"為什麼我們最需要防止共犯串證的詐騙犯罪案件量最多其他不只連略同的案件兒少的案件相關的組織犯罪黑道這些都是勾串共犯騷擾證人這都是最嚴重的干擾辦案還有貪賭跟毒品案件都是一樣還有什麼貪賭跟毒品這些都是都是有這個問題"},{"start":7637.253,"end":7657.348,"text":"所以我今天在看立法也就不曉得你們到底為什麼要來修改這個這個這個規範為了一個在市長室踩飛輪收300萬的貪污犯這不是我講的這個是起訴書154頁講的為了一個收謝國良200萬的貪污犯為了一個收建商1500萬政治現金圖利121億的貪污犯為了一個人為事"},{"start":7663.683,"end":7683.689,"text":"然後你要來讓這些詐騙 虐童 組織犯罪 貪賭等等其他相關案件的辦案難度增加來讓他們有利於這些共犯跟證人之間的串供 勾結我不懂這是什麼道理我不懂這個提案的政黨是什麼道理"},{"start":7687.027,"end":7712.465,"text":"這個部分我希望不只是這樣我們看過去大家所關心在這邊被靠譜大家講的這些凱凱案過去為什麼羈押也是因為就是用這個理由羈押對不對如果我們這一條刪除之後凱凱案它就不能羈押了對不對包括台版的N號房也都是因為這個理由對不對所以我在這邊希望在野黨能夠懸來樂嘛"},{"start":7714.719,"end":7743.714,"text":"修掉這一條你只是為了柯文哲一個人來為事你會造成社會多大的危害莫此為慎接下來有關108條這個羈押理由的縮短這個部分也引起這個法界我們法界的很大的這個爭議不管是這個各界包括我們這個不管是檢方不管是法官不管是律師界不管是"},{"start":7745.104,"end":7772.023,"text":"這個留德的 留日的 留美的 各界的學者大家都看到這樣的修法都齊齊以為不可我們比較各國的羈押制度台灣的羈押制度並沒有比世界各國其他各國期間長嘛有嗎 沒有嘛齁這個德國是偵查階段的羈押是六個月可以原則上是六個月欸六個月而且他延長機制每一次延長可以遇六個月欸"},{"start":7775.948,"end":7786.188,"text":"這個美國的聯邦法院根本連期限都沒有美國聯邦法院連羈押的期限都沒有那我們現在是有什麼事由說覺得羈押期限太長呢"},{"start":7787.25,"end":7812.13,"text":"我們現在所有剛剛所講的這些不管是詐欺案件不管是組織犯罪案件我們現在包括最 辦案最困難的大家一直在講說我們為什麼打詐為什麼打詐這個詐欺案件越來越嚴重為什麼就是因為查我們在偵查詐欺犯不好辦不好辦 哪裡不好辦就是因為他必須要調閱金流必須比對通年紀錄他必須要解析這些數位證據"},{"start":7813.769,"end":7838.366,"text":"這些東西你現在要我們積壓線現有的積壓期限其實都已經跑的都來不及了對不對常常在積壓期限已經到了但是我們相關的金流分析還沒有辦法完成對不對我們這些數位數位的數據的解析證據的解析都沒有辦法在這麼短的時間內完成所以其實這樣子的這樣子目前的這樣子的積壓期限的時間設計它是兼顧"},{"start":7841.508,"end":7863.48,"text":"人權的保障同時兼顧發現真實所需要的時間對不對那我現在就不懂了我們現在也就又是為了為一個人特定的人為事你也覺得柯文哲這個羈押太久了又是為了這樣子一個貪污犯為事你又要這樣子把這個羈押期限再縮短"},{"start":7867.403,"end":7882.098,"text":"委員我可以報告一個案例那我們發生在高雄的這個張某的連續殺人案子各位都印象深刻的話長達將近四個月的時間我們動員了很多那個警察跟志工都是在運河裡面撈屍塊"},{"start":7883.579,"end":7908.257,"text":"沒有屍塊我們沒法證明死者是不是真的死了所以這個都變成說要時間而且每個撈到的屍塊都要鑑定鑑定是不是跟被害人相符所以那個中間的案子是要很多很長的時間那如果今天不是羈押這個張姓的主嫌的話那我們民眾能不能接受這一個人在一加一以後他就在高雄趴趴走對"},{"start":7911.109,"end":7929.976,"text":"這個我想就是我們這屆修法的提案的委員他必須要對社會說明的必須對司法界各界嘩然一律提出的質疑做清楚的說明我希望今天在審查過程中大家可以把這些話說清楚我們該堅持的要堅持 是好不好 以上接下來我們請吳世陽委員發言"},{"start":7947.564,"end":7976.236,"text":"我們請劉秘書長還有施部長好 謝謝主席辛苦了我們非常遺憾在今年司法法治委員會居然是讓年改走回頭路那我想先請問兩位你們知道工都盟針對2025年的國會亂象有做出了一個年度代表字你們知道是什麼嗎不好意思 我沒有注意"},{"start":7977.677,"end":8004.719,"text":"我不知道好 我這個謎底揭曉你們一定很有感就是毀啊毀憲亂政的毀啊我們司法法制是第一線是非常的感同身受啊不管是今天刑事訴訟法這種個案是為個人量身定做的修法或者是一再的禁覆二讀不義而決的這種暴衝式粗糙的立法或修法"},{"start":8006.26,"end":8024.805,"text":"誘惑甚至是我們司法法制委員會的民主討論是最欠缺的我上週到未還委員會去審查人工生殖法我赫然發現原來在司法法制委員會已經消失已久的民主討論我很高興在其他委員會依舊可以踐行"},{"start":8025.885,"end":8044.891,"text":"我們在人工生殖法的討論光討論名稱跟條文第一條都保留就花了將近兩個小時主席不會限制每個委員只能三分鐘發言主席也不會限制只能一次發言主席更不會把立委的多元意見的傳達來消音"},{"start":8046.872,"end":8069.177,"text":"所以說一個制度的毀壞真的是讓我們都要去深思喔這人民的票選的這個毀對應於今天的修法大家都應當慎重的去反除甚至我們不能接受什麼叫做先求有再求好這種立法的思維下一頁"},{"start":8070.903,"end":8094.219,"text":"年改表決走回頭路年金永續成空 世代爭議也不見了今天的爭點有兩個第一個翁小玲委員要求我們要返還兩年的退休益扣的退休金事實上關鍵就在於剛剛秘書網已經清楚的說明了就是條文在修正的時候"},{"start":8095.453,"end":8122.187,"text":"並沒有去訂施行日期所以說我們依據過去中央法規標準法13條的規定施行日期就是發布之日期的三日發生效力這是立法者自己要知道的ABC自己在修法的時候沒有把施行日期的配套思考清楚現在反要求我們要去違法要去把兩年的義扣退休金一併要返還"},{"start":8123.428,"end":8148.397,"text":"自己修法修不好還要怪全序部真的是毀啦 整座海料料啊 整座都毀啦所以這個部分不該做的不能夠逼考試院來違法行政嘛這是第一個爭點你們早上我的意見理解有沒有錯誤沒有好第二個呢就是在我們試算的那個期限剛剛部長說"},{"start":8151.604,"end":8178.975,"text":"至少大概六個月 因為幾個原因 要系統要再重做那還有要跟當事人確認嘛 對不對中華哥卡一個過年 今年過年的年假還不在那裡等我想問一下 我們過去在2017年修正年改法案那是進步性的修法的時候 我們的準備期是有入法吧"},{"start":8179.827,"end":8203.362,"text":"對 我們給了一年的實施期間過渡期間所以當時當時的立法者就沒有發生這種普隆功的幾週海料料的修法嘛清楚的入法也給予我們相關的行政部門一個合理作業的時間試算 然後通知當事人所以給了一年而且當時是入法嘛對不對那為什麼過去的立法院做得到現在的立法院這麼的"},{"start":8204.663,"end":8223.431,"text":"這麼的粗糙這個水準水平真的是走回頭路啊跟年改一樣都走回頭路啊那去年的這個警消條例的修法有入法嗎準備期也沒有就沒有嗎這非常符合這一屆國會的特色就是完全沒有把配套想清楚"},{"start":8224.161,"end":8239.114,"text":"沒有入法 沒有像2017年的年改非常嚴謹的給予你們入法的一年的合一的準備期那警消條例也沒有入法但是你們就警消條例試算的這些的經驗值那時候花了多少時間"},{"start":8240.06,"end":8251.924,"text":"我們大概前前後後也差不多半年啦就是半年是起跳的嘛就是到半年左右我們把最後的審定函發出去那前面就有很多開始做系統更換測試還有確認這樣一個陸陸續續的過程"},{"start":8255.405,"end":8273.756,"text":"雖然警消人員條例我們現在釋憲中所以雖然暫時沒有執行要等釋憲的結果但是我們也依法律通過你們也去啟動了這個試算而那個半年的時間現在運用在年改的這個案子就是合宜的"},{"start":8274.296,"end":8292.867,"text":"我們內部事實上是真的做評估我必須尊重同仁作業的那個所以在警消的部分大概當初預估到有4萬個案件那這個呢是我們要重新發出18萬的一個肯定雖然案件有簡單有比較複雜但是我們都希望一起"},{"start":8294.428,"end":8314.751,"text":"所以六個月真的只是一個合宜時間的最低標準我還很擔心你剛講警消影響是4萬多人這一次公教反年改是18萬所以說委員不要再為難考試院了要不然當初修法的時候自己把配套準備期的時間定清楚嘛"},{"start":8315.635,"end":8335.607,"text":"所以說真的是鬼走海寥寥下一頁你們已經提出釋憲文了民進黨團也將在本週或下週就會立案我們期待憲法法庭除了受理釋憲也希望能夠作出暫時處分就我們期待唯有作出暫時處分才能夠讓民進黨團我們所主張的"},{"start":8338.249,"end":8361.028,"text":"这个你应该走回头路停下来但如果即便送市县暂时处分也还没有出来包括我们尊重大法官是否受理所有的作业程序都是朝要进行要终止的方向所以没有不执行这个也要讲清楚来秘书长因为现在法律已经公布生效所以在相关的处置上都会合法"},{"start":8361.568,"end":8385.734,"text":"是所以说这个社会也会有些误解说年改过了你们又不执行事实上当宪法法庭已经恢复运作我们申请释宪然后希望宪法法庭能够做出合宜的暂时处分的处分否则我们都还是照法律通过的准备在进行相关的作业审定工作本身就是执行的第一步对"},{"start":8386.514,"end":8409.895,"text":"那這個是需要時間 第一個是不能出錯第二個是不能讓同仁過勞 也不能操之過急去倉促上路所以我希望你們能夠把作業做得嚴謹絕對不能先求有再求好這個也是 李歡迎的壞習慣不要傳染到其他的憲政機關來 部長要補充沒有錯 全局部對於退休案件的審定一向高度嚴謹所以我們一定不能出錯"},{"start":8410.575,"end":8434.546,"text":"所以但是這需要作業時間因為這關乎每一位公教人員的權益我們一定會努力做但是我們不想讓他做一個出錯又一堆那個重新又回來重新要更改所以立法委員自己急救張暴沖式的這種壞習慣真的不要強加在其他憲政機關身上好 兩位請回那我請司法院的複密也請法務部的次長不好意思 暫用多一點點時間許次"},{"start":8441.414,"end":8459.734,"text":"今天對於刑事訴訟法的惡修鼓勵篡政篡到保讓共犯權解套我當然覺得這個是萬萬不可我們絕對反對 下一頁但我要先問我要感謝也肯定這個法務部在中國對於我國檢察官被列他們的台獨打手"},{"start":8460.535,"end":8489.503,"text":"跟吳思瑤同級我也是台獨打手但沒有想到我們的司法人員也被這樣子的對待我肯定你們第一時間部長就出來喊話這是傷害台灣的司法獨立中國沒有權利長臂管轄跨境鎮壓更重要的是不要傷害台灣的司法主權這是台灣的司法主權下一頁但是呢我就覺得你們有一個部分就沒有做得特別到位了"},{"start":8490.723,"end":8514.615,"text":"這麼多的人公然挑戰司法的公信力包括傅坤祺總召公然對社會說 怕賤人沒有背兩三條案怕賣大賣這種做法就是社會非常負面的示範包括館長他自己恐嚇國家元首被起訴他居然還來做這種"},{"start":8516.311,"end":8536.293,"text":"要求總統出庭不出庭就是冤案又開始來民粹跟司法操弄了包括蔡正元三中案定案了以後國民黨黨主席還頒給他實踐一等獎章國民黨是上上下下在鼓勵犯罪嗎"},{"start":8537.774,"end":8563.995,"text":"還有前兩天看到蔡正元先生跟柯文哲前主席公然非常挑釁的做了一個合拍秀出他們的電子交流所以網路上大家盛傳說到底台灣社會怎麼了這些對於社會的輿論都有影響力的政治人物公然的都來做這些鼓勵犯罪或是摧毀司法公信力的這些操作"},{"start":8565.797,"end":8573.084,"text":"對應於剛剛我們對於國台辦對台灣的司法人員的這種威嚇跨境鎮壓我們第一時間的來反制"},{"start":8574.229,"end":8597.35,"text":"我真的覺得台灣的法治教育不能夠海嘹嘹啊我們都參加扶輪社啊扶輪社每年多努力的我們都有這個法治教育委員會去各個學校各個社區推廣正確的法治教育但是當這些人都不斷的在用他的影響力來愚弄司法愚弄民粹的時候你們要do something啊"},{"start":8599.813,"end":8625.152,"text":"複密跟次長這個部分你們好像就都當然尊重了這他們的言論自由可是站在法律教育法治教育的角色我認為我們不能一再姑息來次長回答我想他們相關人政治人物他的言行社會自由公斷那我想捍衛司法公信力應該是全民都應該來信守來支持的"},{"start":8626.139,"end":8650.222,"text":"強化法治教育好嗎當我們知道國內的政治人物搭配著中共的認知作戰都在摧毀台灣的司法主權的時候我們還是要去做必要的事還是要做必要的事不然就害怕那些小孩子大小要大胃就要犯法整個社會最大在野黨在鼓勵犯罪我們不能縱容好 下一頁"},{"start":8651.772,"end":8673.072,"text":"今天這個提案人黃國昌委員到美國去了所以說他的提案是自己不敢面對嗎我也不知道 落跑的真是時間提案人就是黃國昌啊他自己不敢面對啊下一頁我來講重點了就是我們法務部反對的幾個理由啊刑事訴訟法不能被惡修啊因為我們必須要保全證據我們要"},{"start":8676.355,"end":8695.546,"text":"不能夠影響打擊犯罪向上溯源的這些作為而且羈押制度不能因為個案受到摧毀對不對淪為犯罪者的保護傘更重要的是現行羈押處分是法官保留法官依比率原則來審定就是確保他的最小傷害"},{"start":8696.286,"end":8723.568,"text":"大法官釋字392號就很清楚的說負面應當很清楚就是檢察官只有申請權但是就是法官保留只有法官擁有這個權利所以說我們這樣子的要求都是大法官釋字大法官又說話了但立法院又要違憲了我具體還調出我下一頁剛剛大家都講了詐騙集團 毒品都是這些串證者的大宗"},{"start":8724.409,"end":8738.137,"text":"尤其呢這個電信詐欺的九成的案件也都是透過串證可能讓他逃之夭夭喔所以說我調出司法院的統計報告說過去20年來從2007到2022其實我們當時的准雨積壓率在2007到2014年大概是11700多件但是到"},{"start":8750.995,"end":8765.924,"text":"14年的時候就是腰斬減少變一半6000件換言之就是法官保留越為謹慎嘛對不對但是呢後來在20232024又幾乎又回到15年前的羈押數原因是什麼"},{"start":8767.185,"end":8795.141,"text":"就是因為打詐嘛就是因為打詐的需求嘛所以說這是一個新興犯罪社會有共識的事情如果在沒有這些惡意的去篡證湮滅證據的這些打詐詐欺毒品或是性侵的案件如果沒有這些事情的話我們可以回到一個合宜的法官保留他會在侵害最小最小保護的那個原則裡頭去拿捏嘛"},{"start":8796.241,"end":8806.079,"text":"所以說這個事情黃國昌委員從頭到尾他的提案都是毫無正當性只是為了個案的修法所以我再一次的表達喔"},{"start":8807.679,"end":8830.293,"text":"我們不要為詐騙集團來脫罪不要讓組織犯罪者獲得保護傘不要為某些政黨的偽造連署讓它成為台灣民主的常態我們也不鼓勵一些竊取國家核心技術譬如說台積電泄密案的這些人可以因為刪除了串證的要件"},{"start":8833.775,"end":8850.391,"text":"而讓這種竊取國家核心技術的人他可以逃之夭夭當然對於虐童對於兒少性犯罪還有對於共諜的滲透共諜滲透也是這一類非常需要去防範的對象"},{"start":8852.253,"end":8873.745,"text":"所以如果在野黨執意要把這個二修又要爆充式的修法又要先求有再求好亂修一通最後事情大條了再來趕快修回來司法法制太擅長了啦法院組織法法庭直播不是這樣嗎自己進負二讀修壞了然後再來遷怒於司法院"},{"start":8875.049,"end":8899.287,"text":"我們不容刑事訴訟法再這樣被惡修何況今天提案人黃國昌自己都畏罪潛逃所以我是建議主席提案人不在我們今天很難討論他怎麼去闡述他的提案的意旨呢當提案人自己都不願意面對了都自己都不敢面對了那我們何必"},{"start":8901.096,"end":8908.406,"text":"這樣認真的替他審查他的議案呢所以說如果刑事訴訟法被惡修而提案人又不在場"},{"start":8910.239,"end":8931.213,"text":"那我覺得這樣子的討論是非常沒有踐行民主的原則我們也要尊重黃國昌提案人的權益不是嗎他應當到場來為自己的提案來捍衛不是嗎好我們繼續該捍衛的就堅持我們都不要淪為犯罪者的保護傘被利用了好謝謝主席謝謝大家"},{"start":8932.858,"end":8941.445,"text":"好 接下來我們請吳宗憲委員發言那等會在王宏威委員詢答完畢之後我們就休息個五分鐘 謝謝主席我這邊還有一個程序的發言就是我想說在我質詢之前我想提一個就是說因為今天的專報找了那個"},{"start":8962.122,"end":8977.333,"text":"考試院全序部但是其實今天其實應該要在要找來的是行政院跟內政部因為始作俑者是行政院還有內政部因為剛剛其實吳孝文講沒錯就公督盟說一個毀這個字他說是年度制"},{"start":8977.873,"end":8992.671,"text":"那我覺得有道理啊因為全世界民主國家你也不會看到哪一個國家三讀通過後的法律行政院不執行包括中華民國已經115年了過往也從來沒有一個行政院院長敢對於三讀通過後的法律不執行那包括到我覺得"},{"start":8994.253,"end":9012.952,"text":"大家如果不懂的話其實縣市議會大家想一下縣市議會如果議員三讀通過的地方知識條例縣政府不執行看會不會鬧得天下大亂所以我蠻認同剛剛吳志曉委員說毀那個字因為怎麼會有三讀通過的法律不執行這個其實我覺得不可思議更何況你說我認為它違憲所以不執行"},{"start":9013.573,"end":9033.038,"text":"那如果到這樣講那地方縣政府縣長也可以說我認為你們這自治條例違憲我不執行那就天下大亂完全違反法的明確性還有法的穩定性原則那麻煩下一次如果說在相關的議題在討論的時候是不是我們可以請行政院跟內政部他們要能夠派人來參加"},{"start":9034.629,"end":9049.967,"text":"我想謝謝吳委員的建議這次邀請上面的確是 也忘記邀請內政部的移民署所以我們接下來還會再安排相關的報告畢竟我們必須要持續的去盯"},{"start":9050.487,"end":9067.99,"text":"全序部跟考試院為什麼要拖這麼久的時間然後沒有辦法發出審定函我想這是攸關所有退休公教人員的權益那麼這個部分的話我們等到再找時間我們再來做適當的安排專報好 謝謝那我要邀請考試院還有全序部"},{"start":9073.516,"end":9088.045,"text":"吳委員長請問一下考試院這邊因為你們說在現行法庭作出判決權還有權序部要本於合法合憲原則執行各項作業那請問一下什麼叫做合法合憲 請問兩位"},{"start":9090.368,"end":9102.893,"text":"就是相關這個法律生效之後這個該執行的部分就會去執行那是不是意思就是說其實新法三讀通過總統公佈生效之後只要憲法法庭還沒有判違憲之前本來就應該要來審定跟來發給對不對"},{"start":9105.807,"end":9131.985,"text":"審定的部分是我們的工作我們會來處理好那對啊我覺得你就那你們其實卓榮泰應該來聽聽看你們在講什麼因為他創了一個全世界沒有沒有民主正常民主國家沒有人幹過的叫做三讀通過後的法律我認為違憲所以我不執行好那我再請教一下就是新法有效那權力存在的情況下你們目前的問題是行政作業需要時間這個核定還需要時間是嗎是"},{"start":9134.847,"end":9136.69,"text":"為什麼這個時間要這麼久 要半年因為我看你們的報告說你們推估需要半年 為什麼"},{"start":9149.571,"end":9164.337,"text":"這個我跟委員報告這個我們是根據過去的一個經驗譬如說警察條例我們也花了快半年的一個時間因為他需要重新再寫程式然後這裡面還有廠商的一個需求的溝通"},{"start":9165.157,"end":9179.99,"text":"然後完了以後就需要一個一個還需要去測試測試那個程式一定不會有問題那我們是用那個來經驗那測試的人更多嘛那這樣喔我先尊重你們這個六個月的這個說法當然我個人會覺得說一到現在的"},{"start":9180.771,"end":9195.216,"text":"的那個電腦的效能為什麼需要6個月這是我質疑我第一個我先質疑這個點但第二個我說我尊重部長您的說法但是可不可以麻煩主席麻煩主席才是這一段時間他說要6個月對不對那主席其實對這6個月也是有意見的"},{"start":9195.956,"end":9217.367,"text":"那我們是不是要求他第一個我們先尊重他們這六個月的要求雖然你我都不認同這六個月但是我們可不可以是不是說請主席裁示每一個月請全區部或考試院要向我們市的法治委員會提交書面報告進度就說你已經完成多少件的審定了我想這個應該是為了全國公務員一個公平正義這個可不可以請他們做到"},{"start":9218.246,"end":9238.425,"text":"是 本席也贊同那個吳委員的建議可能要請考試月根結局每個月要報告到底完成了多少件已經對哪些機關的這個退休公教人員你們已經完成審定我想跟吳委員報告我們每個月都可以提交進度報告但是這個進度報告不是說那個月完成多少是為了完成到六個月以內要完成審定的集中的步驟"},{"start":9240.427,"end":9260.462,"text":"我看了第一次的报告我就知道哪里是要在你们补清晰的数据好不好是步骤啦以及你们都完成了多少件嘛你们如果只是步骤我想我们的是要整个因为他是要系统完全开发一次作业那我们要一次作业会在六个月里面最后发出审定函"},{"start":9261.122,"end":9280.169,"text":"那我想委員應該懂我的意思那前面就有開始開發我們可能一開始要委託開發就有一個流程所以我說我尊重你們但是你要給我進度所以我說我會給進度你們是全國公務員的娘家今天你要為了他們的權益你應該是跳出來在前面幫他們擋子彈的人"},{"start":9281.73,"end":9299.204,"text":"需要我們每個一個月提交一個工作這樣好不好我跟主席報告還有跟部長報告你們先提出來我第一個月看你們報告的方式是什麼如果我有要更精確的數字以及要哪個點我們再直接行文跟你談好不好"},{"start":9300.665,"end":9322.187,"text":"我要就是每個月要給我們一個進度否則全國的公務員都不知道你們在做什麼而且我們都覺得為什麼需要六個月那還有本週裡面你們可不可以先把這個先把那個完成的作業計畫跟時程先報到我們委員會來至少我們公開讓全國這18萬名退休的公務員能夠知道"},{"start":9322.948,"end":9338.185,"text":"不是說半年後再講這件事而是說我們要知道一下你們的將來的做法進度然後讓我們可以接著監督好不好這個禮拜先告訴我們你的大概結構怎麼做就是你們整個的系統的你們說要什麼要轉換要變更等等相關的執行的步驟麻煩一個禮拜"},{"start":9349.094,"end":9366.623,"text":"其實我們本來是一個主權在民的國家主權在民也是憲政的ABC但是我覺得現在政府就是把一個族群一個族群接著丟包所以我看到已經丟包到這樣我不得不再站出來替大家講話我先講第一個政府先棄養原住民之前禁法補助"},{"start":9367.503,"end":9387.139,"text":"法都過了 政府就不編他說我沒有錢我不編第二個 農民啊農民的公糧收購也是啊他說我沒有錢他政府就 你已經過了他就是不做所以先棄養原住民 再棄養農民現在棄養這些軍警消工教再來呢 下一個會是哪一個族群我不知道會不會是醫護人員"},{"start":9389.502,"end":9397.722,"text":"會不會是社工這些現在都是逃難潮你一個國家的運作絕對不是在比說為什麼你護士可以領得比我"},{"start":9398.821,"end":9418.901,"text":"勞工多 基層的其他工作人多為什麼你護士可以比我7-11打工的多為什麼可以這樣其實國家不能這樣子比每個人有他的專業他適合什麼樣的薪水的那個range全世界皆然嘛就現在會搞得說一個群組一個族群被他丟包那今天"},{"start":9419.622,"end":9442.07,"text":"政府就覺得一個蘿蔔一個燈只要有人在這個位置就好這個人能力怎麼樣我不在乎所以這幾年我們看到是公務員報考人數越來越少警察報考人數越來越少好的人才都不到公務體系那政府一直跟我說你有沒有想過勞工勞工收入才多少憑什麼公務員跟我要這個薪水當全世界先進國家對公務員的取材希望走向精英"},{"start":9442.87,"end":9469.943,"text":"把精英來幫我們擬定最好的政策讓國家一起向上發展結果我們的政府不是他只要一個蘿蔔有一個坑就好什麼樣的人才來都可以不懂交通的去幹交通部長反正就不懂這個的去做什麼部長現在變成這個樣子所以只要一個蘿蔔有一個坑這個人是不是專長他一點都不care所以這就是會讓國家整個制度越走越不好"},{"start":9470.743,"end":9492.574,"text":"如果我們國家都剩下二流三流的人來幫我們擬定國家重大政策的時候我們很難變成是一流的國家我們這幾年的經濟狀況社會狀況已經很嚴重了我就說我們鄰近的強盛的國家都用精英在找最好的人就像一間公司的治理我都希望找最好的人來當我們的專業經理人"},{"start":9493.875,"end":9518.889,"text":"結果你今天不說 不用啦 那個專業經理人找這個人來 只要一個月三萬塊就可以你為什麼要找那個一個月要二十萬的然後你再比這個然後好 到最後公司就一團亂這就是我們現在國家的一個狀況 也是我擔心的那出了問題之後 政府一個族群一個族群一個族群的棄養丟包所以我才希望說站出來守住最後的這一塊我不希望國家整個毀掉"},{"start":9520.126,"end":9544.685,"text":"社會越來越 狀況越來越不好 經濟不好我說的經濟是指庶民百姓而不是指經濟的高端階層我們的平均薪資不錯但是我們的薪資中位數很慘但是這些薪資中位數以下的人他們卻是我們現在生小孩或是我們這個社會的最中間的分子就我們現在新生兒出生率剩下0.87請問各位在座的你怎麼對得起我們子子孫孫"},{"start":9546.297,"end":9560.11,"text":"我們現在國家一年要少多少幾年後剩下人家說再過幾年台灣出生率一年剩6萬個人那我們根本不用等敵人來打我們我們自己就亡國所以我一直覺得說我們到底在創造什麼樣的國家給下一代呢"},{"start":9561.806,"end":9577.902,"text":"我現在看到整個國家憲政制度整個崩壞以前說五院制衡現在是大家一起來集團來作亂我跟你講行政院帶頭違法不執行三讀通過的法律如此荒謬的鬧劇發生在中華民國"},{"start":9578.703,"end":9594.842,"text":"第二個 司法院司法院 大法官搞出那個五大於六那個然後講了一大堆亂七八糟的什麼救生員理論自欺騙自欺然後因為我是大法官 我說了算但是我們所有人都覺得你荒謬的鬧劇他也沒有 他也不care啊那司法院的高官來這裡"},{"start":9595.643,"end":9613.023,"text":"我只不過問他說法律宣布違憲之前人民有沒有遵守的義務他不敢講一直在兜圈子連這個最基本的憲政ABC他都不敢講在兜圈子如果連一個司法人員當法官的人都沒有勇氣對抗不對的事情的時候我怎麼期待國家能夠強盛"},{"start":9614.204,"end":9640.289,"text":"然後再來監察院院長虛位一年多當然他身體因素我不會有其他的那個啦但畢竟他也是虛位一年多這是一個客觀的事實又爆出監察院濫用公務車搞那些公家的資源然後我去監察院我具裝去那邊檢舉卓榮泰違法也都沒有下文了好那現在呢本來我們最後我覺得最乾淨的一塊考試院跟權序部"},{"start":9642.151,"end":9667.599,"text":"過往權序部建議說你們應該要撥補什麼預算行政院應該編列但行政院沒有做這件事的時候貴部貴院沒有跳出來講話就今天反而再跳出來說要趕快要提事先要怎麼樣所以到底公務員的娘家你們你是站在公務員的角度幫公務員爭取權益還是繼續在幫行政院在護航這是我必須我要講出我深刻因為我幹過25年24年半的公務員"},{"start":9671.226,"end":9686.883,"text":"我真的看到這樣子下去我覺得不忍心因為你們對於基層公務員斤斤計較但是破壞整個國家制度的你們卻視而不見所以你現在跟我們講說審定函要半年那我就說"},{"start":9689.028,"end":9702.679,"text":"我是予以尊重但是我還是希望說這不是一個消極的抵抗這不是一個對於公務員以及對於在野黨的消極抵抗我希望不是這樣所以我才希望你們資料一定要一直拿給我"},{"start":9704.74,"end":9712.13,"text":"最後我想提一下法務部剛剛次長如果要上來的話法務部剛剛有提到一個點確實剛剛次長講的沒有錯就是在起訴之後的審理期間確實你講的沒有錯"},{"start":9721.042,"end":9740.452,"text":"這個跟真實發現無關而是你們的重點是放在怕逃亡因為我剛剛再仔細再一次去看你們的報告所以次長您說的這完全正確但是我的意思還是這樣就一個案件已經起訴進入審理中陳生法官他已經所有的卷證資料他都看了但是他認為可以不押可以交保可以限制駐居"},{"start":9741.536,"end":9758.067,"text":"其實法務部實在是沒有理由用看告去推翻法官他看完卷證資料之後所認為有逃亡的風險所以更何況你們還有一些替代的東西譬如說我們有科技監控等等的方式"},{"start":9758.747,"end":9784.936,"text":"所以我的草案不是否認被告在起訴之後就沒有逃亡的風險我認為還是有我自己有實務經驗我認為還是有但是呢是不是應該讓檢察官在起訴把被告交給法院接押的時候的接押庭把事情說清楚講明白之後讓法官自己去決定要不要押所以我說我們的訴訟制度學美國"},{"start":9785.876,"end":9800.166,"text":"目前刑事訴訟制度交互結婚許願美國但美國他就沒有所謂的檢察官在審理中的案件看告這個問題那是不是說我們這個部分應該是把重心放在檢察官檢察官在偵查中"},{"start":9801.027,"end":9818.357,"text":"他要押人他要怎麼做我覺得這一定要保障檢察官偵查了這個權益所以有一些人的提案包括其他委員的提案我都不簽我不認同因為我覺得有一些東西你不能隨隨便便這樣子做但是我認為起訴之後到院方"},{"start":9819.718,"end":9842.186,"text":"審理逃亡與否這個是法官的全責更何況如果今天這個人跑掉了是法官要擔責任不是檢察官對不對那你憑什麼檢察官可以來決定法官這個裁定是錯的報告委員有權就會有責那今天法官做的這個裁定在檢察官看來這個人還是會逃亡這個人還會繼續來威脅證人那檢察官的認為是繼續要結才是妥當沒有"},{"start":9847.848,"end":9876.726,"text":"沒有 處長你講錯了檢察官 所以我說接押庭的時候檢察官要到庭論述講清楚 說明白為什麼這個人要繼續押他在審理中檢察官也可以繼續講嘛這個人需要押但是決定權要交給法官來決定而不是讓檢察官可以說不要我們認為上級的法官也要表示意見的機會我們必須抗告以後讓上級的法院來裁判一審的法官我知道這是部裡面的想法嘛但是我要跟"},{"start":9877.708,"end":9894.095,"text":"那個市長說明一下我認為已經起訴到法院了決定權其實應該交由法官檢察官要盡其所能的把他認為被告可能會逃亡的理由盡量的告訴法官但是由法官來做決定"},{"start":9894.975,"end":9910.43,"text":"我認為是這樣更何況那個法官是陳審法官這個被告會不會跑掉其實這個法官要擔全部的責任不是檢察官所以你說的全責分明沒錯所以講法官有權下這個裁定他也必須要有責任去扛這個風險"},{"start":9912.071,"end":9933.92,"text":"我的意思是這樣我懂委員的意思但是法官扛責任這個對整個社會大眾來講我們考慮的是一個案件最後的結果還有民眾的心理沒關係 這個部分我覺得我很尊重因為次長你也是一線檢察官出色這個部分我們可以溝通將來到我們在討論案子的時候"},{"start":9934.56,"end":9954.435,"text":"我提我的草案那您說的也不是完全沒有道理所以我們可以去討論都不要有還是限制次數等等我覺得這就是一個法律上面的研討所以我提我的想法但我也非常尊重法務部的想法我覺得各有各的道理但是你也不能夠否認說其實到法院之後為什麼"},{"start":9955.496,"end":9981.702,"text":"刑事訴訟制度讓檢察官到審理期間不得申請羈押而是由法官才能羈押它有它的道理如果你說我們怕他跑要檢察官要有表示意見的機會那你刑事訴訟制度就直接設計檢察官可以申請在法院審理時可以申請羈押就好了為什麼刑事訴訟制度在法院審理的時候不讓檢察官有申請羈押權它也有它的制度的原因所以這個部分將來我希望我們可以"},{"start":9982.662,"end":9987.407,"text":"做一个实质的好好讨论我当然很尊重贵部的一些想法因为"},{"start":9988.581,"end":10012.355,"text":"到審理之後法官比檢察官更怕人跑掉因為跑掉他要背責任的第二個我們國家其實花了很多錢在搞科技監控所以科技監控這塊也是可以彌補很多不能說所有東西都是檢察官認為說這個會跑所以我要押因為認為會不會跑不能當作說我要押你所以我百分之百有理由"},{"start":10013.135,"end":10037.192,"text":"這逃亡風險可是就是勾串證人這一個部分沒有辦法用課金我現在不是在跟你逃勾串我現在一直在講審理中你一直拉到偵查中勾串我沒有講這一塊因為事實上起訴後的被告會施壓要求證人翻供是有的這個我都懂所以我也跟你講所以我們剛剛不是你自己講我們講的你說"},{"start":10039.494,"end":10065.033,"text":"你們並不是在談真實發現這一塊這是您剛說的不是在談我理解因為我看過你們的報告我們在談的是逃亡所以我們現在就逃亡的部分去講至於說勾串之語那個是另外一個議題我並沒有去討論那個議題所以這部分再麻煩因為我認為說羈押他是法官保留不能把他變回檢察官保留最後我講不好意思因為今天我們還有其他的委員大家"},{"start":10067.775,"end":10093.733,"text":"第一個我希望起訴的時候把羈押的必要性說清楚我剛剛等吳思瑤等好久你知道嗎第二個我希望你起訴的時候把羈押必要性寫清楚那你擔心有逃亡篡證再犯就具體說明第二個起訴羈押庭要實質攻防檢察官要到庭說明第三個審理中的羈押決定回歸法官的公平審判才是王道謝謝各位"},{"start":10099.456,"end":10116.101,"text":"接下來請陳培宇委員發言朱熹時間真的太久了那個有請法務部謝謝法務部還有司法院"},{"start":10120.031,"end":10148.03,"text":"委員好好 兩位早我想今天召委安排這個刑事訴訟法的審查可是因為裡面有民眾黨團的提案的版本那至於民眾黨團提案的版本有多麼荒謬剛剛審發會委員也好或是無私要委員都說得非常清楚我就不再贅述可是我覺得還是想要提醒相關的主管機關你們在看待委員修法的時候絕對不要再說尊重大院的決議因為現在所謂你們口中的大院就是立法院通常就是三讀"},{"start":10148.931,"end":10169.764,"text":"表決過關甚至呢相關的討論都不願意進行實質討論那到底是為了照顧什麼樣的個案也看不清楚所以我不希望後續再看到你們所謂的尊重大院的決定因為如果按照這個版本呢就會變成如果按照民眾黨團的版本今天不敢出席的黃國昌委員的版本就會變成是行為人可以篡政但是不可以滅政"},{"start":10170.464,"end":10191.35,"text":"太荒謬串證串到寶大串證時代即將來臨我們來看一下相關資料來下一張根據法務部網站統計資料呢積壓的前三名喔都來到詐欺毒品危害防治條例還有竊盜我們來看113年的數字我把這前三項加起來呢大概就佔了78%"},{"start":10192.89,"end":10218.852,"text":"也就是我們花了很多力氣在確保詐欺毒品危害防治還有竊盜的相關罪犯不要有串證的問題所以我們做了羈押這個動作可是這件事情如果在民眾黨團眼睛看起來他們覺得辦詐欺案也好或者是辦這個毒品危害防治條例不會有串證的問題所以他們把串證的這個拿掉所以我當然覺得非常的荒謬可是因為荒謬的法案我不想浪費時間我只是做出提醒來下一個"},{"start":10219.492,"end":10233.949,"text":"那我們來看一下如果我所謂的串證這個問題被拿掉會發生什麼樣的事情我用這個毛俊坤的案子為例之前呢我看簡報的左手邊框起來這個部分"},{"start":10234.549,"end":10257.182,"text":"這個案件最早被通報的時候是在111年的7月7號可是一直到113年的9月底才被起訴那這段期間呢毛顯總共陸續對39名幼童犯罪743次還包含持有兒少性影像869部照片1679張而我們看相關的犯罪時間點就落在111的7月到113的9月"},{"start":10258.863,"end":10277.219,"text":"那我们当时就想如果当时有及早的羁押这一名行为人是不是就可以避免更多儿少的困境所以后续呢我自己也提出了修法我在2024年提出我希望羁押的规定可以纳入儿少性剥削防治条例36跟38的部分"},{"start":10277.739,"end":10298.317,"text":"我很開心看到司法院在之前的新聞稿也競表贊同那我後續看到今天司法院跟法務部的報告應該都是一樣的立場那甚至也感謝你們提醒我們其實把36的其他四五項擴充進去這個部分我們後續會提出修正動議感謝你們對於兒少的關心跟支持那我當然也希望更多的委員支持"},{"start":10298.877,"end":10319.675,"text":"好那以上這邊請問兩位還有表示任何意見嗎因為我們現在看到司法院的報告是還沒有送進立法院對不對是只有報告給行政院會那有機會送進來嗎司法院這邊的修法的還是你們自己不送因為那是屬於刑事訴訟法是屬於司法院主責的那個條文"},{"start":10320.496,"end":10342.405,"text":"那司法院已經院會通過了 去年就已經通過了也已經送到法務部跟行政院那現在還在行政院審查好 那我們就等行政院後續送出那行政院這邊 法務部這邊有什麼建議現在那個草案在行政院裡面好 那有預計什麼時候要送嗎因為委員這邊已經 召委這邊已經排審了你們有預計什麼時候要送嗎這個我大概要等行政院開會決定"},{"start":10343.746,"end":10353.554,"text":"好 那再盡快給我們回覆好不好因為我怕召委這邊如果很快要把它往下走完好 兩位請回 謝謝那接下來有請全序部施部長還有人事總署 謝謝委員好部長我從一個新聞上看到您一直以來始終如一我非常的驚訝在2017年呢 中國時報有一個報導您當時是人事總長 對嗎"},{"start":10373.435,"end":10400.341,"text":"對那個那個年代我是當人事長你當時就說年輕公務員離職應該是重考不同科別跟年金改革沒有關係很開心8年後您站在這裡依然為年金改革持續說話給你一個大大的讚一個有風骨的人對於自己在講的事情價值觀非常清楚不會有人一下從黃的變白的可能會變紅的所以部長您非常了不起那我們如果接下來看更多實質的問題我們今天不來討論這個"},{"start":10401.681,"end":10421.21,"text":"可能違憲年金改革我想跟您討論公職人員考試這件事情我們因為關心離職的問題不像有的委員指揮妹妹那沒有去看相關資料我們來看一下相關資料確實近三年來公務人員未滿三年的離職人數真的還蠻多的那我們就去猜想可能的原因"},{"start":10421.63,"end":10441.446,"text":"如果所謂的一個立法委員想要立出好的法案真的想要協助改變問題那我們就要去找到問題的根源我們來看一下考試院的會議記錄裡面在114年的7月31號裡面有說高達20.5%的人可能有重複錄取的狀況也就是他曾經考上可是還要去重考"},{"start":10442.066,"end":10458.07,"text":"我們就開始想他有什麼原因可能要去重考我們確實去問了一些比較年輕的公務人員他們給了我們一些說法的可能性也想聽聽看部長您的意見有一個說因為分發地點比較像是抽盲盒的概念部長你知道什麼叫盲盒嗎"},{"start":10460.431,"end":10479.823,"text":"好好抽盲盒就是不知道會抽到哪裡去還有呢公務機關的勞動條件欠佳當然我知道你們已經很努力在改善可是抽盲盒這件事情現在還沒有辦法改善原因是他要分發的時候他並不知道會分發到哪裡去那如果家裡面有比較小的小孩要照顧那該怎麼辦呢我們來看下一張"},{"start":10480.603,"end":10498.553,"text":"那現在我知道在公務人員申簽法第五條第三項裡面有說只要職務列等相同而且職務相當並且經過徵審委員會同意就可以互換對不對那可是我比較好奇他要怎麼找到可以跟他互換的人我們現在有相關平台嗎"},{"start":10499.757,"end":10515.226,"text":"我理解應該沒有特別的沒有特別設計這個平台但是應該這樣講所有機關如果有出缺他都要公告在市球園人球市上面會有一個上面的搜尋功能我的印象我上去用過應該還不錯部長因為我沒有用過"},{"start":10518.368,"end":10545.276,"text":"我也很好奇假設這個平台他還有機會再改善針對我們的公務人員他想要再換回轉調回他自己的家鄉或者是他的孩子他的家人所在的地方這個平台有沒有可能再改善這個後續我們會再跟你們討論好不好但我想我就先提出這個建議因為你說事求人人求事現在已經有相關機制但是可不可以積極的媒合這些想要回到自己家鄉想要回去照顧小孩照顧爸媽的應該說媒合這個功能應該可能但是"},{"start":10546.516,"end":10558.723,"text":"資訊揭露應該是非常清楚結論我知道了有資訊揭露可是媒合條款可能還不夠媒合平台機制還不夠那我們辦公室希望持續跟你們討論這一題好不好這個事情是總處負責總處負責我會請總處幫忙好不好你就說好就好了好不好"},{"start":10562.985,"end":10580.641,"text":"因為我們確實想要協助這些公務員改善相關問題再來下一個修法可能會需要兩位一起負責關於養育子女的部分現在在公務人員任用法第22條第二項裡面規定說年資一年以上養育三歲以下的子女你就可以申請轉調對嗎現在是這樣寫的對不對"},{"start":10584.625,"end":10601.164,"text":"我們來看一下如果用兒少權法來看因為我們想要擴大留任公務員所以我們回頭想他們有什麼原因有可能現在兒少權法裡面第51條提到的是六歲以下的兒童或是所謂需要特別看護的兒童"},{"start":10602.725,"end":10629.487,"text":"這個是所謂兒少全法裡面對於孩子們的定義跟想像有沒有機會我們的公務人員這個請調的規定可以搭配兒少全法做一個修法的可能性想要聽聽看兩位的意見這個細節我想謝謝委員提供我回去跟部裡面的主管司再看看有沒有這種可能性因為畢竟那個轉調我們有一個公平性的一個問題對我知道我知道如果有這種可能性的話我們會來"},{"start":10631.048,"end":10656.333,"text":"那我在加碼的說就是說因為我們在考慮少子化我們就是方方面面去想所以如果他都已經願意生養小孩了我們再加碼再把三歲擴充到六歲這個事情要沒有花多餘的預算的情況之下有沒有機會真的讓年輕的公務員有生養孩子的公務員甚至他可能家裡面有特殊狀況的兒童包含我們最近在修身障全法或是之前在修特教法"},{"start":10656.693,"end":10680.829,"text":"我们知道台湾有越来越多孩子有所谓不同特教样态的需求其实需要爸爸妈妈更多时间照顾他们陪在身边那我们办公室也希望可以提出相关的见解跟修法的建议因为我们来看过去从2023年修法公务人员任用法只有208个人使用相关的调职的规定我们觉得很可惜一定他们可是我前面还讲有百分之二十几个人是重考的"},{"start":10681.229,"end":10701.354,"text":"所以我认为如果把可能的原因圈起来可能会是往这里方向去规划所以我们办公室这边最后一张我们希望相关的人才媒合机制可以更加积极还有公务人员任用法22条把三岁扩充到六岁这件事情符合儿少全法的精神我们办公室会再积极跟两个部会讨论也请你们给我们相关的规划报告两个月内有可能吗"},{"start":10702.98,"end":10729.54,"text":"這個事情我們回去會討論那所謂規劃報告如果借電程說是把我們的意見提供給委員知道我想不是說我們一定要這樣做就是我們先聽聽看你們的意見嘛因為我今天是第一次提出來那全序部也好人總也好這邊我們都希望提供給我們相關專業的意見因為對於公務員很多現場服務的樣態的熟悉你們絕對比我們更高好嗎那我們只是就兒少這個部分提出我們的建議跟看法好謝謝兩位謝謝主席"},{"start":10732.179,"end":10733.921,"text":"好 謝謝 接下來請我們紅衛委員發言好 謝謝主席 先請我們考試院秘書長以及我們權敘部部長好 請秘書長和部長"},{"start":10752.81,"end":10776.015,"text":"委員長好 早安 先請教一下秘書長我們現在考試院已經向大法官申請釋憲了嗎有關於公教人員停侃年紀的部分 是什麼時候申請 上禮拜四上個星期四 對不對就申請釋憲那請問一下您知道行政院也已經就這件事情這個議題申請釋憲了嗎知道"},{"start":10778.975,"end":10802.804,"text":"所以這應該是創下一個記錄兩院同時因為一個法案當然兩個法案公務人員跟公教人員同時兩院雙管齊下去申請釋憲不覺得是對於我們退休公教人員的一個很強大壓力的追殺嗎"},{"start":10804.429,"end":10826.817,"text":"絕對沒有這個問題因為畢竟這樣的修法使得退府基金會提前四年用慶這個對後面的公教人員來說這個是很大的風險所以考量到基金永續的角度所以行政院去申請事項還不夠然後考試院也要加碼因為法律主管機關不一樣因為教育部是行政院主管公務人員是考試院主管"},{"start":10827.397,"end":10849.372,"text":"這個已經是創下我們大概憲政史上兩個院級一起去實現那剛才院也問了很多因為你們現在是一個所謂技術性說要半年的時間做重新審定那我想請問一下考試院如果在這半年之內"},{"start":10853.334,"end":10869.819,"text":"大法官沒有做出任何的釋憲那到時候就要上路那上路之後呢上路之後是不是應該要回溯回溯到我們法律裡面規定的114年1月份開始對不起 112年是不是要回溯"},{"start":10877.554,"end":10892.275,"text":"因為法律的寫法並沒有讓這個法案提前生效它是從去年的12月28日生效所以12月28號以前它會依照舊法的規定發放所以你們要繼續賴皮囉沒有 這個沒有賴皮的問題"},{"start":10894.578,"end":10917.833,"text":"你看我們退伏法最後一條其實過去的修法都有法例說某些修正的條文他可能是指定後面的日期某一天生效也有指定前面在法律通過公佈之前生效的條文我們在法律上有回溯我們法律上有回溯但是這一次修法沒有這樣寫他沒有去指定生效日"},{"start":10918.573,"end":10938.414,"text":"所以他就會變成是總統公佈後三天生效生效之前你必須用舊法去執行生效之後用新法所以你們要繼續再做賴皮這沒有賴皮另外在時間點上因為你說這個是涉及18萬的公教人員所以要用半年的時間18萬公務人員"},{"start":10940.276,"end":10956.861,"text":"公務人員但是我想請問一下因為當年在2018年7月1號開始實施軍公教停侃年金當時的軍人的部分他的三讀通過的時間是2018年的6月20號三讀通過"},{"start":10960.422,"end":10983.674,"text":"但是當時擔任行政院長的賴清德院長他當時就說7月1號同步上路同步上路也就是在軍人的部分事實上是2018年的6月20才三讀通過可是他也在當年的7月1號與公教同步的施行"},{"start":10984.966,"end":11006.173,"text":"所以我覺得其實要不要施行是在為政者的一念之間我承認因為當時公教的部分是在前一年完成三讀我知道在前一年完成三讀然後他在隔一年的7月1號開始上路但是軍人的部分因為當時軍人他的爭議性也很大"},{"start":11007.233,"end":11033.901,"text":"所以他當時軍人的部分是在當年的6月20號三讀通過所以我要講的是其實什麼時候正式的上路是在為政者的一念之間呢而並不在於說你們今天以一個所謂的重新審定其實看起來因為你們去提出視線了你們去提出視線只不過是想要用時間來換取空間"},{"start":11036.621,"end":11061.011,"text":"這是兩個獨立的事件 威恩就像您講的公教人員在2017年8月的時候法案公佈2018年7月1號上路中間這10個月的時間我們全序部的同仁是大動員然後假日加班沒日沒夜的在做重新審定的工作如果執行面可以彈指之間一念之間就讓它實現的話公務同仁都不用存在了"},{"start":11062.112,"end":11082.706,"text":"現在我請問 因為你們說大概需要半年時間因為你剛才在回答其他委員的時候也說只要在按照我們的法律的程序如果大法官有一種可能他沒有提出就是說這是不違憲 但這個可能性比較低因為現在大法官完全都是聽從賴總統的"},{"start":11084.927,"end":11105.016,"text":"那也有可能說他沒有排反正他在這個半年之間他都沒有做出違憲的一個判定的時候那請問一下按照這個時間可不可以在今年的7月1號正式上路呢如果審定工作都完成了那各機關你們可以去定一個目標啊不是嗎所以我們講說大概預估就是六個月吧"},{"start":11111.189,"end":11133.814,"text":"對啊六個月啊我六個月我說你七月一號上路不是也剛剛好嗎好我希望你們能夠你們能夠說到做到雖然我認為是時間換取時間那個空間時間換取空間對不起時間暫停一下我現在再請我們內政部今天內政部是警政署人事室主任"},{"start":11143.407,"end":11148.149,"text":"這個部分其實是我認為是劉士芳部長的責任但是我要特別提一下就是警察人員的人事條例因為我們已經是占讀通過但是你們也是拒不執行拒不執行之外你們甚至在警察人員的定義裡面把移民署排除在外把移民署排除在外"},{"start":11169.44,"end":11176.123,"text":"但是這很沒有道理因為當年林右昌當時他做這個所謂的危險加擠的時候他做危險加擠的時候他把這個移民署還有空情他認為這個也有他的危險所以把他納入了這個比照警察也調高15%"},{"start":11190.109,"end":11192.451,"text":"可是這一次警察人員的人事條例三讀之後第一個當然你們拒不執行拒不編這個法定預算但是你們又把警政署的人員把他移除了我認為這非常不合理因為警政人員過去他也是從警察他所移出的"},{"start":11210.544,"end":11239.182,"text":"另外還有一個就是在你們的這個照護方案就是對於警消的這個照護方案醫療照護方案在所有跟這個警消相關的人事單位裡面你們又獨獨排除了移民署的人事也就是他們這個警消的一個醫護照顧你們又把移民署給排除了"},{"start":11240.077,"end":11264.989,"text":"因為移民署它事實上也有司法警察的角色跟它的功能所以這部分我覺得我要特別為移民署的人員來做來幫他們做陳情來幫他們來爭取所以我希望今天在我們警消海巡還有這些空情移民署的人員他們過去都源自於警察希望不要有這種兩套標準"},{"start":11267.21,"end":11291.806,"text":"不要讓他們好像變成是在你們整個的系統裡面你們作為次等公民我這樣因為你們是幕僚人員我希望你們能夠帶回去未來也能夠幫他們來說話爭取一下好不好好 以上謝謝好 謝謝那麼因為我們剛剛宣告說要中間休息五分鐘就不好意思請莊委員體諒好 那我們大家先休息五分鐘"},{"start":11308.772,"end":11309.295,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":11578.593,"end":11602.595,"text":"接下來我們現在開會接下來是鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在然後鄭天才委員跟鄭委員提醒因為非本委員會的委員4分鐘謝謝"},{"start":11611.84,"end":11638.631,"text":"好 謝謝 請秘書長還有部長好 張副人事長好 這個有關警察人員人事條例這個其實本席107年就質詢當時的前序部部長也就是現在的考試院院長"},{"start":11639.98,"end":11661.51,"text":"他都同意因為警消跟一般的公務人員真的是不一樣所以警察人員的警消的這些退休服這些退服規定要定在警察人員人事條例終於拖了很久"},{"start":11663.373,"end":11689.387,"text":"公布施行的這個警察人員人事條例的修正條文在去年的4月25號公布施行公布施行之後也已經生效了生效這個按照這個考試院的報告你們做了相關的這些很辛苦的來去審定也做了一個完成的審定"},{"start":11690.598,"end":11714.968,"text":"那現在執行面的部分要怎麼接下來已經審定了所以來回因為這個牽涉到行政院的預算前所以這個部分考試院已經把這個部分的工作完成了那接下來就是預算的問題這個要請這個考試院前序部還有人事行政總署"},{"start":11717.18,"end":11744.711,"text":"要去跟左院長報告或協調當然就考試院來講要去協調已經審定公佈施行就尤其是考試院或者是人事行政總書而言依法行政公佈生效有效的法例這個部分真的是一個需要我們好好的去溝通協調的部分"},{"start":11746.018,"end":11772.108,"text":"好 我們看這個公務人員退休之前撫恤法的修正114年12月26號總統公佈施行這個我們卓榮泰院長也附屬了附屬表示同意對不對 就附屬了然後現在情緒部的報告也說114年12月28號"},{"start":11776.644,"end":11800.938,"text":"公布施行之後生效生效這個考試院的報告卻因為說這個將使退府基金提前用盡意思本院難以順遂推行推行使基金永續之法定限定執掌因此本院已向憲法法庭提出釋憲及暫時處分之申請"},{"start":11808.014,"end":11828.985,"text":"這個如果用這樣的那個理由用這個理由因為退伏基金會提前用盡用這個理由這個理由真的是很牽強用這個理由真的是很牽強那是一個財政另外一個問題這個秘書長一直要回應"},{"start":11835.836,"end":11855.132,"text":"我就是跟委員報告說財政問題很嚴重這個牽涉到後面年輕世代的權益這個部分不能因為這個理由來去釋憲我們再回顧我已經講了很多次了你也聽了很多次了"},{"start":11856.82,"end":11883.817,"text":"国家年金改革委员会是蔡英文总统成立的由陈建仁当时的副总统主持召开跨院跨专业专家写者开了20次的会议然后由考试院提出了公务院退休之前符系法的版本结果立法院"},{"start":11885.414,"end":11908.169,"text":"當時立法院民進黨記憶絕對多數對不對考試院的版本是小砍立法院把它大砍我上次沒有機會跟您說明因為那時候你已經離開了我要修正一個可能您的記憶年金改革委員會提出的版本跟考試院後來提出的版本不一樣"},{"start":11910.722,"end":11928.23,"text":"考試院砍得比較少年改會的決議那個社會討論20多次還有說明會等等那個程序出來的決議是後來的應該是當時行政院提出的版本行政院提出的教育人員版本是依照那個年改會的決議"},{"start":11929.17,"end":11956.259,"text":"那民進黨黨團提了一個版本那民進黨還有 當時還有別的國會議員還有提出各種修正版本只是我要講的是說考試院不是照年改會的決議去提版本的好 不管怎麼樣啊都是砍 小砍 大砍而現在是停砍立法院是停砍"},{"start":11957.87,"end":11987.011,"text":"所以你要用這個做理由是事先的做理由真的是最主最重要的最重要的因為軍公教本來就要依法行政然後考試院行政院要帶頭不依法行政然後用這個是財政的是另外一個財政的問題就像勞保對不對還有財政的問題"},{"start":11988.712,"end":11996.605,"text":"也有財政的問題所以這個另外一個制度的問題好不好這個部分是一個需要審慎的一邊釋憲一邊也會依法來執行以上 謝謝"},{"start":12002.827,"end":12023.535,"text":"好 謝謝鄭委員 那接下來我們就請莊銳選 對不起接下來是黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員不在賴世寶委員賴世寶委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在那接下來我們就請莊銳選委員發言"},{"start":12030.609,"end":12044.717,"text":"好謝謝最美麗的召委來有請我們考試院劉建新秘書長還有我們權敘部施囊結師部長行政院人事總處我們張秋元副人事長還有部長我來請教一個問題"},{"start":12053.243,"end":12077.511,"text":"我們公務人員請假的規則 這個第三條第一項第六款現行的規定配偶跟父母 貴姓起了 父母跟配偶死亡者傷假15天繼父母配偶的父母跟姪女死亡者給傷假10天然後曾祖父祖父母配偶的祖父母配偶的繼父母兄弟姊妹死亡者5天"},{"start":12080.173,"end":12104.839,"text":"這個邏輯我不知道這個邏輯是怎樣我們一直在講說我們往上從己身所從出往上從己身所出後面的人說要走慈禧學信 北清書這個假有的十五天有的十天有的五天你們那個背後的思維跟邏輯到底是什麼痛苦"},{"start":12108.695,"end":12115.978,"text":"對不對 應該是講痛苦啦說 啊 現在父母親死掉 一定會很痛苦可是現在小孩子死掉了 就不痛苦嘛配偶死了 多痛苦啦 我覺得這怎麼量化的問題怎麼去量化那我都會覺得說 這有點舊時代的一個思維啦你很難在現代社會裡面 家庭結構已經改變了那我們再去 你看本身的兄弟姊妹就變五天"},{"start":12136.275,"end":12163.197,"text":"這好奇怪然後公務人員呢父母親死掉的是商假是15天那勞工的就變8天繼父母的部分呢跟配偶的父母子女死亡者10天勞工的部分呢又變6天這個既然是在講痛苦那這個痛苦為什麼會有這個我們先不談說公務人員跟勞工"},{"start":12166.664,"end":12189.978,"text":"光這個你看公務人員體系裡面這個整個親疏之間要痛苦的量化還有說可能辦喪事要很久可能有這樣的思維邏輯在這樣這都我覺得很亂的是不是以現代社會的家庭的結構這少子化你說父母親照顧小孩所以死掉要給他很多"},{"start":12190.816,"end":12206.227,"text":"合理啊 我認為很合理啊因為父母親嘛 養我們的嘛可是有的人是父母親當然我們要孝順他可是像我們這個鄉下的父母親哪有時間教養我們都沒有啊 都要去工作啊都是阿公養我們啊那對我來講那個阿公反而要給他20天30天"},{"start":12211.254,"end":12233.794,"text":"不是嗎 那現在社會家庭又改變了可能互相扶持 大家感情最好的你要講痛苦的話 搞不好兄弟姊妹那個死亡的話 應該是更痛苦啊所以你有沒有感覺啊這個剛才 婦人市長在這裡比如說 你的看法 我看你一直笑你的看法是怎麼樣 那個邏輯你不覺得這個應該做一個改變嗎"},{"start":12235.985,"end":12253.032,"text":"這個題會牽涉到不同的比如說商場習俗 家庭觀念現在社會家庭結構的改變的確會有委員講的那樣子就是它會有很多觀念可能過去定的規則現在看起來會有一點不完全合宜或者是邏輯上不完全一致"},{"start":12253.732,"end":12267.634,"text":"所以我的意思就是說每一個家庭結構每一個人對祖父母或對父母或對兄弟姊妹之間那一種感情那種感情大家感受會有所不一樣那這個思維就是在講痛苦那第二可能講說"},{"start":12270.727,"end":12279.071,"text":"這麼親密的人死掉了可能要智商智商每一個人又不一樣宗教別又不一樣有的人兩天有的人三天有的人一個禮拜像我在鄉下我父母親過世我就給他一個月我就自己拿著那個父文去告訴通知我爸爸媽媽他們最好的朋友說你再生的誰誰誰誰已經過世了讓他們知道也是這樣子而已"},{"start":12293.078,"end":12310.225,"text":"我拖一天耶 我要洗澡整天這樣照照照照照照照一天老爸老婆我都一天啊每天在那裡我就坐在那裡 不敢嘛所以每一個人會不一樣有人的時間長 有人的時間短但我的意思就是說既然我們看起來這個思維就只有兩個一個就是親情"},{"start":12311.465,"end":12317.33,"text":"然後我們用舊時代的規章去把它做量化但這個量化出來以現在來看 到底合不合理我真的是存疑啦我真的是存疑啦六天 你說現在在家裡的保溫到三天而已啦你說配偶的配偶的父母又是十天啦 又是十天啦這看起來我就覺得這個邏輯都很亂剛有辦法來做一個研議 來做一個"},{"start":12339.312,"end":12368.415,"text":"好像比較跟上跟得上我也不敢說這樣就跟不上時代是不要讓他那麼混亂畢竟太久沒有去考慮這個問題啦這個我印象中這個請教規則你問我說哪一個幾天幾天說實在我也答不上我也不跟你說那個確實有不同的用天數啦是上限這個請教規則很久很久沒有修過了說真的就這一個部分啦"},{"start":12368.945,"end":12386.384,"text":"所以你也趕快樂觀其成啦就是說我們來嘛這樣委員會有跟我們來想想看啦想一下啦就想一下這樣看有沒有他一定當初有當初各式各樣的考量啦只是說這考量現在所以我們現在就是放得糊裡糊塗啦有當初的考量可是現在不一樣啦就想想看啦好不好副委員長你的看法呢"},{"start":12389.176,"end":12410.999,"text":"我做一個說明啦 就是這個真的是因為真的規則從三幾年發布這樣一直下來那過去商價應該會像委員剛才講的可能跟我們過去的這個智商的習俗等等的都會以那個當事人為核心嘛 北部就可能"},{"start":12417.043,"end":12434.152,"text":"所以會有不一樣的的確時間是延期下來我們會配合全部再來看看應該現在的變動變動好不好是不是可以謝謝還有在我最後一分鐘以下那個那個法務部次長請上來一下好"},{"start":12441.348,"end":12461.585,"text":"社長我看這次台灣民眾黨提出的刪除勾串共犯跟證人作為羈押室友的一個修法的一個提案我想過去這個社會其實是有很大的一個爭議那今天這個案子排進來本學必須要很嚴正的去講出來以現在來看的話你刪除掉勾串共犯跟證人"},{"start":12462.861,"end":12474.948,"text":"我比較擔心的是會貪玩掉整個重大犯罪一個溯源的一個能力你像譬如說我們現在很多這個如果刪掉的話我為什麼有很大的一個疑慮你詐騙的話你就抓到了人如果說不能押"},{"start":12479.994,"end":12500.267,"text":"然後金流繼續在跑手機也繼續在通然後上游的人在幕後的大家都笑嘻嘻我很擔心這個拆掉整個刑事司法裡面再抓一個重大犯罪的一個架構我當然知道這個提案是希望讓它更文明可是我很擔心這個文明到最後變失明"},{"start":12501.588,"end":12509.969,"text":"簡單你 你們到底有沒有什麼樣的一個想法跟配套或者說這樣的一個修法會不會產生怎樣的一個衝擊聽你的看法"},{"start":12510.748,"end":12535.641,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想原來的法律的規定就是法官審查已經非常的完備了我們執行這麼多年來也沒有問題那現在如果把這個勾串證人共犯跟被告刪除的話如委員剛才所講的這些重大的經濟犯罪還有科技洩密還有國安案件 詐團這些案子如果主嫌犯沒有押起來相關的人沒有押起來的話"},{"start":12536.761,"end":12552.598,"text":"出去馬上把他的髒證物處理掉人就跑掉了所以你們也擔心產生非常的擔心我們非常非常的不樂見這樣的修法好啦 我們再考慮一下啦謝謝 阿杜仔忘記給考試員跟人總先請回很抱歉謝謝主席"},{"start":12554.738,"end":12573.411,"text":"好謝謝莊委員那接下來我們請洪孟凱委員發言那麼我們待會也先處理會議時間上午會議時間就繼續進行到所有的登記發言委員詢答結束為止那麼今天的其他案子呢我們就再會定期討論好那接下來請洪孟凱委員好麻煩我們請考試院劉秘書長那以及我們"},{"start":12583.542,"end":12595.401,"text":"內政部好不好內政部應該是警政署跟人事處好不好麻煩來 秘書長是我想請教一下就是說"},{"start":12596.723,"end":12623.403,"text":"剛剛鄭天才委員以及我們幾位委員其實之前都已經講過說現在年金停侃的部分其實它是停侃過去已經執行了差不多六年七年的時間也有往下降的一個趨勢那當初在2017年的時候的立法過程裡面您剛剛也特別提到就是說有分三個版本至少我們了解的三個版本考試院有提出一個版本年金改革小組也有提出一個版本以及到最後民進黨團也有提出版本"},{"start":12623.863,"end":12645.984,"text":"那以這三個版本來講是考試院版本的這個降低是最少的是不是對 考試院版本當然有一個過程全劇部本來是依照年改會的版本提出到考試院之後 但是到最後通過的到最後通過的是立法院通過的是民進黨團的版本不完全是啦而且那個其實當然還有委員的修正版也不是民進黨團版而已"},{"start":12646.144,"end":12672.75,"text":"但確實就是大家會覺得是說那個時候通過的是粗糙而且是到最後是大砍的一個部分也因此我們現在才會講是說但是大砍大砍是事實也因此現在才講是說時代變遷條件以及物價整個上漲的部分那該調整也調整了年金改革沒有人反對但重點在於是說能不能合理永續的讓大家都可以有一個最基本的保障那我想請教一下來 重點在這邊"},{"start":12673.631,"end":12674.172,"text":"重點在於是說現在我有看你們的那個"},{"start":12677.356,"end":12703.77,"text":"報告裡面有講是說已經有跟憲法法庭提出釋憲跟暫時處分的申請了是 上禮拜四那目前現在的進度是什麼那就是遞件了那遞件會不會受理那個就是看他們的速度好 那我想請教一下那中華民國我們有相關法令的規定嘛那如果說在任何的機關或是申請人申請譬如說暫時處分或是說釋憲的部分的話那還沒有裁定之前是不是應該依法行政"},{"start":12705.516,"end":12713.545,"text":"我們現在退服法的修正部分我們也一方面釋憲另外一方面我們也會來進行審定的工作"},{"start":12714.744,"end":12737.2,"text":"是啊 所以說是不是應該現在三讀通過法令總統已經公告了是不是就應該要執行就應該要執行啊那到目前為止還是原用舊的這個制度是什麼回事這是因為執行需要時間那就重新核算的需要多少時間我們講說大概就六個月的時間這不是技術性拖延跟技術性配合嗎以賴清德總統講說台灣是AI我們是AI之島我們是高科技"},{"start":12744.425,"end":12769.883,"text":"對 但過去到現在我們難道你說一般的民間企業一般的這個銀行要調整馬上就可以調整但是考試院到目前為止居然提出來是說用技術性杯葛六個月的一個時間不覺得這樣子其實是很荒謬的事情嗎程式如果設計出來了程式如果修正了電腦跑起來會很快但是修正程式有程序也需要時間那個是人要去做的事情"},{"start":12770.743,"end":12789.483,"text":"就是因為就是要人做的事情所以說你們現在的積極與否以及消極的態度就讓全國的軍公教看在眼裡嘛現在不就是變成是說應該是要幫全國的公教人員來捍衛權益的考試院反而是用行政部門的一種行政怠惰來去做延緩"},{"start":12790.724,"end":12815.899,"text":"不覺得這樣子其實很荒謬的事情嗎現在的公務同仁他們會不會過勞他們要需要多少時間去執行現在又在勤勒考試院秘書長你不需要勤勒我要先告訴你的部分是應該要執行要執行而你現在用這種行政怠惰的一個說法其實是說不過去絕對沒有怠惰其實不是講完就會直接做出來沒有長你的態度全國的公教人員都看在眼裡那我想請教一下內政部"},{"start":12819.145,"end":12837.662,"text":"內政部那我們今天有討論到還有剛考試院秘書長講說要半年的時間這種行政怠惰是全國人大家都聽不下去但另外一個部分是我們有通過這個警察人士條例35條的部分那今天的報告本席也看到是說也針對了"},{"start":12841.973,"end":12870.971,"text":"這個警察人士條例修正後增加的退休所得差額部分依行政院申請釋憲跟暫時處分的結果來辦理那本部配合辦理那我想請教一下現在行政院送釋憲跟暫時處分的狀態是什麼據了解應該行政院已經送出了那後續可能就要等司法院大法官這邊的後續處理是啊 那在還沒有判還沒有任何的裁決之前我們是應該要依法行政"},{"start":12872.04,"end":12892.627,"text":"跟委員報告基本上我想請教一下內政部在等什麼可以自己決定是說想要執行的法令就執行不想執行的法令就不執行我們還是要依據行政院的最後的指示來處理行政院是算是中華民國最高的行政機關但他也要依法行政"},{"start":12893.567,"end":12914.583,"text":"那我現在想請教的是說你的狀態你剛剛也講很清楚啊考試院剛剛MU長講了啊送釋憲跟送暫時處分啊但是到目前為止還沒有裁示啊那如果說還沒有裁決之前是不是就應該要依總統公告過後的法令三讀通過法令來做執行那一樣到底內政部警察人士退休條例什麼時候通過的"},{"start":12915.703,"end":12933.997,"text":"去年的4月27號去年的4月到現在也超過8個月了如果說以秘書長剛剛那麼偉大的講法要6個月的時間來調整那你內政部也調整完啦那你到今年你還是沒有給我們警察人士條例應該要依照新法的部分 什麼原因"},{"start":12935.339,"end":12951.898,"text":"有關審定的部分我們的確在去年年底已經跟全區部合作那全區部這邊也都全部轉交到我們退休的警察人員的手上所以就審定的部分的確是已經依法完成了那但是因為後續這個你沒有執行啊"},{"start":12953.099,"end":12967.764,"text":"現在我們面對到每一個警察同仁我也常講我說不管是年金不管是相關的部分改革我們一起支持努力但本席更重要就是只有八個字原則保障現職照顧退休"},{"start":12968.624,"end":12993.22,"text":"那到現在你們講差額的部分還是沒有執行啊你自己的報告寫說依行政院申請釋憲及暫時處分結果辦理本部配合辦理什麼時候內政部也好什麼時候我們的行政部門也好是可以配合行政院然後不依法行政行政院比法律大是這樣嗎行政院比法律大"},{"start":12994.785,"end":13017.405,"text":"然後你後面我覺得更讓本席沒有辦法接受的是後面還多加一段本部為警察人員主管機關向來重視警察消防等人員權益還用粗體黑字有點噁心啊一方面講說重視警察消防人員權益另外一方面配合行政院打假球"},{"start":13018.578,"end":13047.23,"text":"八個月過去了然後現在在等行政院說送釋憲跟暫時處分好嘛送釋憲跟暫時處分現在暫時處分了沒還沒嘛那如果說現在暫時處分還沒的話內政部門內政部行政機關憑什麼不依法辦理我們法令可以這樣子自己解釋嗎我一個申請人我現在申請說我暫時處分我不要納稅我要釋憲不要納稅那我送出那一刻我就可以不繳稅"},{"start":13050.446,"end":13065.677,"text":"暫時處分是這樣用的嗎不是嘛那結果你們今天的報告還可以直接寫白紙黑字依行政院釋憲跟暫時處分那這就是依法無據啊跟我有報告 基本上行政議題所以行政院目前 行政議題"},{"start":13080.498,"end":13107.44,"text":"行政一體大過法律那叫獨裁國家行政一體你敢說還不敢講那叫獨裁國家獨裁國家才會行政一個人說了算總統一個人說了算大家不用看法律反正總統想怎麼樣就怎麼樣警察的退休的待遇消防退休的待遇海巡退休的待遇放著沒關係"},{"start":13109.383,"end":13127.423,"text":"因為這個不是執政黨提出來的案所以說他就可以擱著來抱歉主席一分鐘的時間我是不是請一下那個刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心主任張主任好不好來我們官員請回來張主任麻煩一下"},{"start":13136.027,"end":13162.164,"text":"主任本席過去到現在一直很關心詐欺的打詐的一個成效那我想請教因為每天的打詐儀表板本席都有看這個數字我不是要隨堂抽考你放心10月60億金額被詐騙11月59.8億被詐騙但12月上升了66億這都是打詐儀表板的數字本席幾乎每天都會去關注"},{"start":13162.884,"end":13183.352,"text":"等於是平均一天差不多2億多被詐騙那我想請教我們目前掌握的狀況10月 11月本席那個時候也提醒過就是說它看起來有一個天花板就是60億你真的要降不容易降就代表是說詐騙還是很猖獗你即便是宣導了165反詐騙等等的但是它有一個天花板"},{"start":13183.712,"end":13212.484,"text":"但到12月突然又往上了變66億有沒有什麼樣的一個情緒或說你觀察到的樣態是什麼樣的樣態還是持續讓國人有被詐騙的一個風險或狀況鮑委員因為這個詐騙的問題它其實真的是很複雜如果說依照歷年這個20幾年來它詐騙的一個發展的趨勢其實它通常到年底到隔年的1月過年前通常會是一個其實過年前比較高峰對 會比較高峰就第一個"},{"start":13212.864,"end":13240.08,"text":"第二個就是說其實在各項政策推動其中向推動最大的一個潛在被害人部分因為我們激發讓這些長期遭到詐騙的被害人提早出來報案所以這個也會造成可能數據會提早出來那另外一個就是我們也沒辦法做一個明確的定論就是說也有可能是因為但這個是沒辦法去證實就是說也有可能是因為太監打仗的原因包括緬甸"},{"start":13241.121,"end":13258.421,"text":"在好像前天跟昨天都有發布說他們當然我們沒辦法證實說這個是不是有在做是真實的那最主要就是說他可能今天炸毀了園區以後那這個會造成還在持續招詐的被害人因為他就提早清醒了因為沒有聯繫等於說"},{"start":13260.003,"end":13271.245,"text":"騙他的詐騙人他就沒辦法跟他們聯絡了所以他們就發現他們已經被騙了所以這幾個原因都是很有可能導致12月結果他的一個遭詐的財損就往上了"},{"start":13272.47,"end":13295.778,"text":"等於說會比11月的59.9億來得多6億多所以其實我們也還在觀察看看1月份目前的狀況因為1月份目前的狀況平均大概每天看起來大概也是1億多到2億多主任如果說在你這樣講的話我很尊重專業因為我覺得打詐是大家要一起來不分草野藍綠但是如果說在你這樣講的話那其實詐騙的歪風惡行並沒有因為"},{"start":13300.424,"end":13318.691,"text":"我們的這個強力的打仗而有所降低你今天的一個數字的提升因為為什麼 數字很重要因為它是很科學的東西它起來就起來 它下降就下降那本席的講師如果說你講師說是因為被破獲所以提前犯罪被害者來去做報案的話那過去這幾個月"},{"start":13320.652,"end":13347.909,"text":"民進黨政府一直在那邊跟我們強調或洗腦講說打詐有成效的都往下了錯了那根本就是蓋牌啊那就是之前蓋牌了那只是被害者還沒有報案沒想到因為破獲了首腦之後一掀開蟑螂跑出來了建議可以從6月看到12月因為他要看一個趨勢我有看到那趨勢是往下嘛但是12月就往上嘛那再來主任是"},{"start":13348.729,"end":13370.667,"text":"你那個趨勢我本席很實在話講如果你今天是一天只剩200件100件一天只剩幾十萬被詐騙那我會跟你鼓勵但如果說一天還是有兩億多被詐騙一天還是一個月還是有一萬多件的時候你要我跟你講是說現在我們成效好棒抱歉我做不下去"},{"start":13371.508,"end":13380.614,"text":"因為一個月一萬多件代表一個一萬多個破碎的家庭兩億多一天我們去年被詐騙金額多少2025年"},{"start":13382.83,"end":13408.15,"text":"本席幫你算了將近900億891億全年2025年一整年我們台灣被騙了891億而這是打在儀表板上的數字還有多少沒報案的不知道還有多少花小錢被炸小錢想說算了我買一個教訓的不知道但光打炸儀表板上面的數字就891億"},{"start":13409.511,"end":13435.195,"text":"所以本席是要提出來我一個誠摯的建議跟呼籲好好做事而且看那個數字去分析了解到底案情在哪邊還有哪一些新型態的詐騙最後本席提醒一下因為社群媒體平台最近也有在有一個詐騙是很老手法可是還是有很多人就是他故意說用送什麼東西我家有多的什麼"},{"start":13435.871,"end":13458.618,"text":"那個咖啡店的新的城市杯好多我要免費贈送我有 是 很多在推跟IG我們的注意事有什麼那個什麼吊牌好多我要贈送甚至還利用我們台灣人的愛心說我台灣的這個行李牌很漂亮要贈送結果人家真的跟他聯繫之後原來他是一個詐騙後面的手法"},{"start":13459.298,"end":13473.244,"text":"也許不是全部都是但是在翠上面在IG上面有很多這樣的一個手法而網路的討論也很多我們繼續再搜報再麻煩你真的謹記一點作為好不好謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝洪委員接下來徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在"},{"start":13484.5,"end":13508.768,"text":"那麼今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束委員質詢時所要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者也請相關機關盡速送交給個別委員以及本會委員翁曉琳徐欣盈有提書面質詢就列入記錄並刊登公報那也請相關機關已書面答覆"},{"start":13511.709,"end":13521.917,"text":"本次會議就進行到此討論事項 所列的個案 報告及詢答都完畢了我們就決議定期再繼續審查現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"167080","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167080","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0c71b78d76239b7b2307671192a7c66aa603d53f4e90152977aee9c616f299ce85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:12:07 - 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部長好 部長就今天這個我們要討論這個台灣未來帳戶其實我一直認為就是說我們應該先照顧這個需要被照顧的人那當然就是我們看到"},{"start":38.121,"end":63.269,"text":"這個之前我們衛福部這邊也有推一個兒童及少年未來教育與發展賬戶那這個部分我想請教就是說我們從這個107年到現在這個成果是怎樣它的效益是怎樣因為這個是針對我們低收跟中低收的這個兒童那你們也將近這個快10年的時間那你們推展的這個效益是怎樣"},{"start":64.16,"end":92.305,"text":"跟委員說明大概我們所訂的是低收入戶跟中低收入戶的兒少啦18歲以下的那所以目標族群大概差不多6萬人左右那目前已經有開戶的大概是6乘5有開戶那有持續一直在續繳的大概有8乘5也都持續續繳所以目前大概累積在這個賬戶裡面的大概是達到32億左右那6乘5那其他的部分"},{"start":92.825,"end":117.855,"text":"其他的部分就是說因為這個因為這個是屬於當然這個開戶第一個關卡是要開戶所以開戶政府就會有1萬塊的開戶那之後呢就是對撥相對應的提撥所以如果這個家長沒有角落的話那政府就沒有這個對應的提撥啦所以我們現在的努力方向當然透過一些社工來幫忙那麼協助開戶"},{"start":119.415,"end":144.281,"text":"那第二个就是如果没有继续续缴的了解原因那么社工也尽量来给他们做一些协助那我是不是可以请部长针对这一部分因为低收跟中低收的这些儿少是最需要被协助帮忙的所以如果目前是只有六成五有开户的话我们是不是可以再往前"},{"start":144.801,"end":168.676,"text":"就是努力是不是可以再達到八成甚至九成或者百分之百這樣的開放因為確實如果本身這個家庭如果是低收或中低收的話整個經濟狀況其實就很不好有的就是靠政府的這些補助靠這個補助來生活那如果說你要請他額外再提撥這個一萬塊相對我們開戶"},{"start":172.198,"end":190.073,"text":"其實對一個家庭來講是有困難那當然就是說我們是不是可以請社工這邊來協助就是說他們有什麼樣的困難那來協助那是不是目前六成五接下來是不是可以達到八成我是不是可以請部長有這樣的一個承諾然後請社工來協助"},{"start":190.814,"end":212.424,"text":"好 我們朝這個努力 讓這個覆蓋率可以增加是 好 那接下來就是說我們今天的這個台灣未來賬戶其實這個提出來我也覺得還不錯就是說可以一方面這個只是解決少子化的其中一個項目而已其實少子化不是給錢就可以解決"},{"start":213.564,"end":230.074,"text":"部長你認不認同對對完全認同你認同嗎其實我們碰到現在不婚不生的人確實是非常的多那有的經濟狀況也不錯那或者是有結婚他就不想要有小孩所以也不是說給錢他就會想要生"},{"start":231.014,"end":256.528,"text":"當然就是說政府如果可以讓整個育兒的環境更好那政府也相對提撥一些經費來協助我相信應該也多多少少會有一些協助有一些幫忙那我可不可以請教就是說部長針對因為我一直在問這個少子化所以國人不生小孩這個少子化的問題你們有沒有特別去分析"},{"start":257.108,"end":282.142,"text":"是什么样的原因有跟委员说明大家看到的这个低出生率这是最后的结果但是他背后的分析我们也做过那么以这个是适合生育的年龄的妇女那么来做分析的话是从25岁到44岁这个族群的妇女因为最主要是这个是适合生育的年龄来做分析在这一个"},{"start":282.842,"end":309.705,"text":"这一25岁到44岁的这一群的妇女里面只要有过婚姻不论是现在还是不是婚姻状态那么他的生育率可以高达83到90%而且在过去这10年间的变动不会太大就是说一旦有结婚那么他会有生育那但是反过来如果在这一群里面呢没有结婚的那么他的生育的机会就是小于1%"},{"start":311.286,"end":331.941,"text":"那我们再从1990年来看1990年这一个年龄群的这个妇女没有结婚的比例大概是21%可是去年呢已经来到52%所以换句话说台湾的一个少子化问题跟婚育的概念非常高度相关"},{"start":332.581,"end":355.096,"text":"所以如果沒有不婚在這段時間不婚的比例越來越高相對的生育率就會一直下降所以我們過去做了很多的努力在希望協助養育生育的家庭但是可能忽略了前面這一段就是婚育概念"},{"start":355.816,"end":373.577,"text":"那这个是我们从数据上大概看到这个是另外一个就是让年轻人敢结婚对所以这个也是未来你们这个需要需要去努力的一个重点对那这个又牵涉到我们整个这个社会的进步"},{"start":374.198,"end":398.782,"text":"那么教育的延长现在就是过去大学毕业之外硕士博士教育的延长还有职场上的友善这些都会影响到婚育所以我想这个不是只有确实像您提的不是只有钱的问题这个不是只有靠补助就可以完全达到提升的"},{"start":399.502,"end":421.987,"text":"我們是希望明年新生兒的出生率不要比去年還要低其實我們看了我們都嚇死了真的在這幾年當中真的是斷崖式的整個人口結構生不如死所以我覺得部長這個應該也是衛福部也是一個跨部會"},{"start":423.007,"end":446.985,"text":"非常重要的一個課題所有的這個孩子都是這個國家的未來的一個競爭力如果我們沒有孩子越來越少其實國家的競爭力是會越來越弱所以我希望部長當然我們都會講說希望能夠來解決少子化的這個議題那當然政府在這八年當中也投入了好幾千億也投入了"},{"start":447.385,"end":473.922,"text":"5000多億5931億 5000多億可是我發現這個投入這麼多好像成效也不怎麼樣對不對 部長我們講說這裡面這個5931億裡面85%都是用在0到6歲國家一起養包含生育的補助包含托育補助育兒津貼還有學校教育其實我們投入的"},{"start":474.542,"end":498.304,"text":"以0到6歲來講每一個孩子平均是120到180萬不等看他的情況家庭背景跟照顧方式那到底是力度還不夠需要再加強還是像剛剛提到的我們忽略了那個不婚的那一段因為這個不婚率一直在增加所以就造成這個生育率"},{"start":499.366,"end":527.7,"text":"不見就是說有昏的他的生育率是維持住的只是因為不昏的比例在提高那部長你剛剛講說如果不昏的話從以前21然後現在是到52%那像這樣子的話你們的對策你們有什麼樣的對策嗎如果你知道的好原因是這個那你們有什麼樣的對策嗎這個是整個社會的觀念要去改變這個工程會更大"},{"start":528.84,"end":552.085,"text":"你們有想過嗎我們就只在研究啦找學者啦什麼大家在做研究分析那也借盡其他的國家還有什麼做法可以來努力啦好我們希望就是說今年2026年的這個出生率不要比2025年還要少啦我覺得這部長應該也是你要的手中的一個目標"},{"start":552.765,"end":571.274,"text":"要維持住然後不能少絕對生育率不能少那你剛剛講的這個我們既然知道原因是在哪一部分那你就是要提出一些對策當然不是那麼容易可是我覺得有想有去請專家學者或者是"},{"start":572.054,"end":588.148,"text":"找一些人來問看看他們要怎樣才會想要結婚我覺得也許這個也是一個方式就是說想要結婚有什麼樣的動機我們是不是朝著這個方向然後去努力我們各方面都來努力思考這樣好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝黃委員 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那接下來請洪孟凱委員好 麻煩我們請考試院劉秘書長那以及我們內政部好不好 內政部"},{"start":28.478,"end":35.438,"text":"應該是警政署跟人事處好不好麻煩來 秘書長是我想請教一下就是說"},{"start":36.757,"end":63.44,"text":"剛剛鄭天才委員以及我們幾位委員其實之前都已經講過說現在年金停侃的部分其實它是停侃過去已經執行了差不多六年七年的時間也有往下降的一個趨勢那當初在2017年的時候的立法過程裡面您剛剛也特別提到就是說有分三個版本至少我們了解的三個版本考試院有提出一個版本年金改革小組也有提出一個版本以及到最後民進黨團也有提出版本"},{"start":63.9,"end":86.001,"text":"那以這三個版本來講是考試院版本的這個降低是最少的是不是對 考試院版本當然有一個過程選舉部本來是依照年改會的版本提出到考試院之後 但是到最後通過的到最後通過的是立法院通過的是民進黨團的版本不完全是啦而且那個 其實當然還有委員的修正版也不是民進黨團版而已"},{"start":86.161,"end":112.779,"text":"但確實就是大家會覺得是說那個時候通過的是粗糙而且是到最後是大砍的一個部分嘛也因此我們現在才會講是說但是大砍大砍是事實啊也因此現在才講是說時代變遷條件以及物價整個上漲的部分那該調整也調整了年金改革沒有人反對但重點在於是說能不能合理永續的讓大家都可以有一個最基本的保障嗎那我想請教一下來重點在這邊"},{"start":113.66,"end":114.202,"text":"重點在於是說現在我有看你們的那個"},{"start":117.393,"end":143.801,"text":"報告裡面有講是說已經有跟憲法法庭提出釋憲跟暫時處分的申請了是 上禮拜四那目前現在的進度是什麼那就是遞件了那遞件會不會受理那個就是看他們的速度好 那我想請教一下那中華民國我們有相關法令的規定嘛那如果說在任何的機關或是申請人申請譬如說暫時處分或是說釋憲的部分的話那還沒有裁定之前是不是應該依法行政"},{"start":145.53,"end":153.559,"text":"我們現在退服法的修正部分我們也一方面事先另外一方面我們也會來進行審定的工作"},{"start":154.761,"end":176.708,"text":"是啊 所以說是不是應該現在三讀通過法令總統已經公告了是不是就應該要執行就應該要執行啊那到目前為止還是原用舊的這個制度是什麼回事這是因為執行需要時間那就重新核算的需要多少時間我們講說大概六個月的時間這不是技術性拖延跟技術性配合嗎以賴清德總統講說台灣是AI"},{"start":180.709,"end":197.298,"text":"我們是AI之島我們是高科技對 但過去到現在我們難道你說一般的民間企業一般的這個銀行要調整馬上就可以調整但是考試院到目前為止居然提出來是說用技術性杯葛六個月的一個時間不覺得這樣子其實很荒謬的事情嗎"},{"start":200.66,"end":217.71,"text":"城市如果設計出來了城市如果修正了電腦跑起來會很快但是修正城市有程序也需要時間那個是人要去做的事情就是因為就是要人做的事情所以說你們現在的積極與否以及消極的態度就讓全國的軍公教看在眼裡嗎"},{"start":218.99,"end":232.735,"text":"現在不就是變成是說應該是要幫全國的公教人員來捍衛權益的考試院反而是用行政部門的一種行政怠惰來去做延緩不覺得這樣子其實很荒謬的事情嗎現在又在勤勒考試院 考試院秘書長你不需要勤勒我要先告訴"},{"start":242.498,"end":256.255,"text":"告訴你的部分是應該要執行要執行而你現在用這種行政怠惰的一個說法其實是說不過去絕對沒有怠惰其實不是講完就會直接做出來沒有這樣你的態度全國的公教人員都看在眼裡那我想請教一下內政部內政部"},{"start":260.56,"end":277.676,"text":"那我們今天有討論到還有剛考試院秘書長講說要半年的時間這種行政怠惰是全國人大家都聽不下去但另外一個部分是我們有通過這個警察人士條例35條的部分那今天的報告本席也看到是說也針對了"},{"start":281.987,"end":311.008,"text":"這個警察人士條例修正後增加的退休所得差額部分依行政院申請釋憲跟暫時處分的結果來辦理那本部配合辦理那我想請教一下現在行政院送釋憲跟暫時處分的狀態是什麼據了解應該行政院已經送出了那後續可能就要等司法院大法官這邊的後續處理是啊 那在還沒有判還沒有任何的裁決之前我們是不是應該要依法行政"},{"start":312.077,"end":332.678,"text":"跟委員報告基本上我想請教一下內政部在等什麼可以自己決定是說想要執行的法令就執行不想執行的法令就不執行我們還是要依據行政院的最後的指示來處理行政院是算是中華民國最高的行政機關但他也要依法行政"},{"start":333.584,"end":354.6,"text":"那我現在想請教的是說你的狀態你剛剛也講很清楚啊考試院剛剛秘務長講了啊送釋憲跟送暫時處分啊但是到目前為止還沒有裁示啊那如果說還沒有裁決之前是不是就應該要依總統公告過後的法令三讀通過法令來做執行那一樣到底內政部警察人士退休條例什麼時候通過的"},{"start":355.74,"end":374.031,"text":"去年的4月27號 去年的4月到現在也超過8個月了如果說以秘書長剛剛那麼偉大的講法要6個月的時間來調整那你內政部也調整完啦那你到今年你還是沒有給我們警察人士條例應該要依照新法的部分 什麼原因"},{"start":375.356,"end":391.925,"text":"有關審定的部分我們的確在去年年底已經跟群聚部合作那群聚部這邊也都全部轉交到我們退休的警察人員的手上所以就審定的部分的確是已經依法完成了那但是因為後續這個那你沒有執行啊"},{"start":393.126,"end":407.78,"text":"現在我們面對到每一個警察同仁我也常講喔我說不管是年金不管是相關的部分改革我們一起支持努力但本席更重要的就是只有八個字原則保障現職照顧退休"},{"start":408.661,"end":433.237,"text":"那到現在你們講差額的部分還是沒有執行啊你自己的報告寫說依行政院申請釋憲及暫時處分結果辦理本部配合辦理什麼時候內政部也好什麼時候我們的行政部門也好是可以配合行政院然後不依法行政行政院比法律大是這樣嗎行政院比法律大"},{"start":434.482,"end":457.419,"text":"然後你後面 我覺得更讓本席沒有辦法接受的是後面還多加一段本部為警察人員主管機關上來重視警察消防等人員權益還用粗體黑字有點噁心啊一方面講說重視警察消防人員權益另外一方面配合行政院打假球"},{"start":458.935,"end":487.247,"text":"8個月過去了 然後現在在等行政院說送釋憲跟暫時處分好嘛 送釋憲跟暫時處分現在暫時處分了沒 還沒嘛那如果說現在暫時處分還沒的話內政部門 內政部 行政機關憑什麼不依法辦理我們法令可以這樣子自己解釋嗎我一個申請人 我現在申請說我暫時處分我不要納稅 我要釋憲不要納稅那我送出那一刻我就可以不繳稅"},{"start":490.463,"end":505.551,"text":"暫時處分是這樣用的嗎不是嘛那只有你們今天的報告還可以直接寫白紙黑字依行政院釋憲跟暫時處分那這就是依法無據啊跟我有報告 基本上行政議題所以行政院 行政議題"},{"start":520.532,"end":547.461,"text":"行政一體大過法律那叫獨裁國家行政一體你敢說我還不敢講那叫獨裁國家獨裁國家才會行政一個人說了算總統一個人說了算大家不用看法律反正總統想怎麼樣就怎麼樣警察的退休的待遇消防退休的待遇海巡退休的待遇放著沒關係"},{"start":549.397,"end":567.437,"text":"因為這個不是執政黨提出來的案所以說他就可以擱著來抱歉主席一分鐘的時間我是不是請一下那個刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心主任張主任好不好來我們官員請回來張主任麻煩一下"},{"start":576.041,"end":602.201,"text":"主任本席過去到現在一直很關心炸機的打炸的一個成效那我想請教因為每天的打炸儀表板本席都有看這個數字我不是要隨堂抽考你放心10月60億金額被詐騙11月59.8億被詐騙但12月上升了66億這都是打炸儀表板的數字本席幾乎每天都會去關注"},{"start":602.901,"end":623.369,"text":"等於是平均一天差不多2億多被詐騙那我想請教我們目前掌握的狀況10月 11月本席那個時候也提醒過就是說它看起來有一個天花板就是60億你真的要降不容易降就代表是說詐騙還是很猖獗你即便是宣導了165反詐騙等等的但是它有一個天花板"},{"start":623.729,"end":652.521,"text":"但到12月突然又往上了變66億有沒有什麼樣的一個情緒或說你觀察到的樣態是什麼樣的樣態還是持續讓國人有被詐騙的一個風險或狀況鮑委員因為這個詐騙的問題它其實真的是很複雜如果說依照歷年這個20幾年來它詐騙的一個發展的趨勢其實它通常到年底到隔年的1月過年前通常會是一個其實過年前比較高峰對 會比較高峰就第一個"},{"start":652.881,"end":679.812,"text":"第二個就是說其實在各項政策推動其中像推動最大的一個潛在被害人部分因為我們激發讓這些長期遭到詐騙的被害人提早出來報案所以這個也會造成可能數據會提早出來那另外一個就是我們也沒辦法做一個明確的定論就是說也有可能是因為但這個是沒辦法去證實就是說也有可能是因為太監打仗的原因包括緬甸"},{"start":681.152,"end":698.439,"text":"在好像前天跟昨天都有發布說他們當然我們沒辦法證實說這個是不是有在做是真實的那最主要就是說他可能今天炸毀了園區以後那這個會造成還在持續招詐的被害人因為他就提早清醒了因為沒有聯繫等於說"},{"start":700.02,"end":711.273,"text":"騙他的詐騙人他就沒辦法跟他們聯絡了所以他們就發現他們已經被騙了所以這幾個原因都是很有可能導致12月結果他的一個遭詐的財損就往上了"},{"start":712.505,"end":739.534,"text":"等於說會比11月的59.9億來得多6億多所以其實我們也還在觀察看看1月份目前的狀況因為1月份目前的狀況平均大概每天看起來大概也是1億多到2億多主任如果說在你這樣講的話我很尊重專業因為我覺得打詐是大家要一起來不分草野藍綠但是如果說在你這樣講的話那其實詐騙的歪風惡行並沒有因為"},{"start":740.441,"end":758.714,"text":"我們的這個強力的打仗而有所降低啊你今天的一個數字的提升因為為什麼 數字很重要因為它是很科學的東西它起來就起來 它下降就下降那本席的講師如果說你講師說是因為被破獲所以提前犯罪被害者來去做報案的話那過去這幾個月"},{"start":760.675,"end":787.923,"text":"民進黨政府一直在那邊跟我們強調或洗腦講說打詐有成效的都往下了錯了那根本就是蓋牌啊那就是之前蓋牌了那只是被害者還沒有報案沒想到因為破獲了首腦之後一掀開蟑螂跑出來了建議可以從6月看到12月因為他要看一個趨勢我有看到那趨勢是往下嘛但12月就往上嘛那再來主任是"},{"start":788.743,"end":810.864,"text":"你那個趨勢啊 我本時很實在話講如果你今天是一天只剩200件100件一天只剩幾十萬被詐騙那我會跟你鼓勵啊但如果說一天還是有兩億多被詐騙一天還是一個月還是有一萬多件的時候你要我跟你講是說哇 現在我們成效好棒抱歉我做不下去啊"},{"start":811.525,"end":820.663,"text":"因為一個月一萬多件代表一個一萬多個破碎的家庭兩億多一天我們去年被詐騙金額多少2025年"},{"start":822.844,"end":848.187,"text":"本席幫你算了將近900億891億全年2025年一整年我們台灣被騙了891億而這是打在儀表板上的數字還有多少沒報案的不知道還有多少花小錢被炸小錢想說算了我買一個教訓的不知道但光打炸儀表板上面的數字就891億"},{"start":849.568,"end":875.229,"text":"所以本期是要提出來我一個誠摯的建議跟呼籲好好做事而且看那個數字去分析了解到底案情在哪邊還有哪一些新型態的詐騙最後本期提醒一下因為社群媒體平台最近也有在有一個詐騙是很老手法可是還是有很多人就是他故意說用送什麼東西我家有多的什麼"},{"start":875.885,"end":898.632,"text":"那個咖啡店的新的城市杯好多我要免費贈送我有 是 很多在推跟IG我們我們的注意事有什麼那個什麼吊牌好多我要贈送甚至還利用我們台灣人的愛心說我台灣的這個行李牌很漂亮要贈送結果人家真的跟他聯繫之後原來他是一個詐騙後面的手法"},{"start":899.332,"end":913.292,"text":"也許不是全部都是但是在翠上面在IG上面有很多這樣的一個手法而網路的討論也很多我們繼續再搜報是 知道再麻煩你再進行一點作為好不好是 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下一頁再下下一頁這是上一頁你看這馬上就有網友就開始酸了做這個絕無機密的貼圖就出來了然後很多軍官也在網路上抱怨現在是要刻很多章嗎"},{"start":144.505,"end":165.465,"text":"現在要刻很多章接下來他會做很多繁複的行政工作對大家來說壓力都非常大所以我還是建議如果國防部要做這種影響那麼大的一個會影響那麼多人的決策一定要小心評估啦再推啦不然的話就會造成這樣的困擾然後部長上個禮拜四在"},{"start":166.385,"end":194.832,"text":"接受有些委員的詢問的時候你說當時推這個政策是為了要跟美國接軌嘛是有這樣講沒錯嘛 對不對然後你有提到說美國也是這樣子做可是實際上我看到有些媒體其實有去找了很多美軍美國就是國防部現在叫戰爭部給國會的報告他們找了三份報告就沒有逐項逐段的去標示武所以跟部長在立法院答詢也不一樣"},{"start":195.232,"end":218.152,"text":"我不知道是部長你被蒙蔽了還是你對這個訊息的掌握那時候有落差基本上相關美軍的一些文件應該都是會有這樣類似的標誌這兩天就有媒體因為部長你這樣講嘛所以他們就去找我至少在新聞上面就看到三份報告您講的是什麼樣的報告就是美國的國防部他們給國會的報告"},{"start":220.253,"end":248.363,"text":"對 那這個就是我們現在也寫國會的報告我們現在就說不用阻斷來表示對 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所以我要再次謝謝國安局我們來看一下你們還有下一個報告 下一張提到所謂的異常帳號跟爭議的訊息那我想我就國人一般的立場來跟國安局副處長這邊請教你們如何定義所謂的異常帳號跟所謂的爭議訊息可不可以用白話文說給國人聽聽看"},{"start":138.246,"end":159.096,"text":"異常帳號就是平常沒有什麼其他活動然後看起來就是不是一個正常人會使用帳號的一些稱呼太陽那平常正常帳號會發哪些貼文他可能會有些就是跟其他帳號會有互動那異常帳號可能就是完全沒有互動或者是臨時註冊然後就可能散發一些註冊時間很短然後平常沒什麼發文然後也沒有再跟別的帳號互動這個可能被你們定義為所謂的異常帳號那所謂的爭議訊息呢"},{"start":162.39,"end":190.668,"text":"就是他会散布一些不实的讯息可能会跟市长有所出入那他还会有一些其他账号的辅助或协力来去刻意炒作好所以他会散布不实的讯息经过你们的查证之后确认他是不实的讯息散播然后还会配合其他的异常账号做协同操作对吗是好所以异常账号加异常账号加上争议讯息这就是你们目前查获231万余则的争议讯息的消息哦"},{"start":191.108,"end":208.873,"text":"所以我想確實台灣在這個議題上陷的是很困難的處境真的希望在野黨委員不要為了黨而黨不要因為不敢面對台灣跟中國之間這個困境或者是只是一心想要討好中國我真的不知道在網美會委員召委排完之後"},{"start":209.213,"end":224.609,"text":"後續有沒有辦法進行主條討論後續有沒有機會送出委員會連剛剛徐馨穎自己身為新竹縣長可能的國民黨候選人她自己都擔心她在選舉的前一夜可能受到假訊息的操作而被翻盤"},{"start":225.37,"end":238.775,"text":"如果連他自己都擔心 那我就呼籲所有要競選縣市首長的國民黨委員 民眾黨委員拜託你們就一起支持相關的修法好 謝謝國安局這邊那我還看到你們相關的訊息 還有說"},{"start":241.276,"end":265.658,"text":"因為呢打台灣的勝算可能很低如果只是就武力攻台的話而且只要台灣人的抵抗意志一天沒有消滅他們就越來越難打過來所以我們看到下一張來下一張呢我們看到有發動所謂的名嘴啦網軍協同攻勢也就是大家在網路上滑社群媒體的時候是一種樣態但是打開電視機開始按第四台"},{"start":266.558,"end":288.394,"text":"從第一台按到第五百台就會出現不同的網路網軍名嘴這個也是你們發現的對不對而且你們說還有接近五十個帳號進行高度協同產製六個階段的推進四層的心理攻擊跟全面系統化的設計透過這些名嘴製造恐慌製造投降 製造分化的心情這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下"},{"start":289.431,"end":307.566,"text":"是 包含這個訊息不怎麼發布但是跟我們掌握的差不多因為這個中共他在操作認知作戰一開始他會設定一個基調跟方向結果會透過一些網軍或是一些協力者來去進行傳散跟推播然後再運用大量異常的帳號來去把這個聲量推高然後再透過大多數圓散法就會"},{"start":309.113,"end":328.22,"text":"這樣要傳播到其他國人的那個手機訊息上好我們來看一下什麼叫做特定事件來看下一張喔之前呢中共軍演的時候呢就所謂的正義使命2025軍演喔這個荒謬的名字那我們就發現呢他們出了一個照片其實我自己也有看到我第一時間意識到我認為喔我自己認為他可能是假訊息"},{"start":328.871,"end":356.842,"text":"所以我第一時間就趕快先上網查相關的訊息而不是急著把它散播出去但我認為很多國人可能沒有這樣的意識可能光是看到101看到一個直升機不明就裡的也不管這個照片的解析度也不管訊息的來源也不管相關國安單位或是國防單位發布的訊息就快速的傳播出去所以我用這張照片來說我認為確實相關的宣傳非常重要剛剛不管葉元之委員也好徐欣盈委員也好"},{"start":357.222,"end":379.597,"text":"都對著行政官員說退稅要宣導啦這個國安的事情也要宣導我就說去年的總預算我們所有的沒宣費被刪光光我現在回過來看他們會不會有一個惡心啊有一個惡意就是把所有的沒宣費刪光光然後再來指責你們行政機關宣導不利所以我也很好奇像這個101被監控問號機器人巷戰這個問號中共視覺洗腦這個新劇本我們相關單位如何透過沒有沒宣費的情況下"},{"start":387.262,"end":402.773,"text":"還是廣發訊息讓國人知道你們的做法通常會是什麼包委按照本局機制掌握到相關訊息我們會第一時間掌握相關狀況然後通報給相關機關那同時我們也會溯源如果涉及到這些違法事證也會請司法檢查機關來去做依法徵處"},{"start":404.585,"end":427.418,"text":"好 可是我還是很擔心 我還是要呼籲喔雖然今天是在講反滲透法 但是不要忘記了所有行政機關 今天所有被叫來的行政機關你們後續在相關事情上的努力如果沒有透過一定的宣傳力道 其實是出不去的而且剛剛副處長你講了一個非常重要的事情現在不管是哪一個社群平台 不管是FB IGTRADE 或者是"},{"start":429.079,"end":444.27,"text":"都有他自己的演算法而且演算法取決於誰要付錢誰願意花錢買廣告我相信你們國安單位不可能去買廣告我也相信今天所有的行政單位都不會花錢去買廣告釋放所有相關想要釐清錯假訊息的訊息"},{"start":445.151,"end":465.686,"text":"所以在我們沒有錢花 花錢買廣告然後我們相關沒宣費用又被砍光光的情況下總預算又不省 我真的不知道後續你們所有為了國安所做的努力如何要讓國人有正確訊息被知道我也覺得非常的荒謬齁好 時間有限 這邊先請回那我要請陸委會副主委 謝謝"},{"start":468.444,"end":483.091,"text":"將副主委好副主委本來準備了很多問題想問可是我剛聽葉元智那個我真的聽不下去我們來花一些時間釐清好不好因為有人講了錯假訊息我們就來釐清錯假訊息因為他們剛剛非常在意所謂錯假訊息"},{"start":484.071,"end":505.358,"text":"主委我剛剛 副主委我剛剛查了退稅的時候我剛剛看你有點不是很確定我也趕快在底下上網查因為我從來沒有在國外退過稅對我就知道來我幫你科普一下來退稅的時候如果在歐洲的精品店因為鍾明軒說他是在精品店中國的退稅代碼是156台灣的是158我先幫你科普一下好"},{"start":506.438,"end":533.299,"text":"那意思就是說他是在精品店拿出他的這一本台灣的綠色護照然後就拿到了精品店給他的一個退稅單上面的國際代碼呢他可能自己一時不察很開心就收進了包包然後他到了機場拿出這個精品店給他的退稅單準備到機場去退稅可能未來我們到日本也會是這樣然後於是就發現哇不能退他損失了一萬多塊這樣其實事情是這樣的"},{"start":535.896,"end":557.535,"text":"他剛葉元之說你們要宣導啊你們要宣導你們要宣導國人出國的時候呢退稅代碼要正確其實這不關你陸委會的事說實話其實這是外交部的事情但是因為他剛指名要問你我也不知道他為什麼要這樣做但我們就說我也很想知道陸委會你們其實在相關對於國人出國尤其到中國或是港澳地區"},{"start":558.135,"end":567.369,"text":"如果有一些可能比較危險的狀況不是只有像退稅這麼開心的事情你們通常會透過哪些管道去做宣導跟加強訊息的散播"},{"start":568.604,"end":590.576,"text":"我們通常都是公開的訊息因為其實我必須說台灣跟大陸往來這三十幾年其實全世界對大陸最了解的就是台灣人比日本人比美國人我們都要更了解所以台灣人其實並不是不知道那邊的狀況但是大家"},{"start":591.596,"end":613.637,"text":"台灣人的可能勇氣比較足啦所以有的時候都願意去冒險犯難這樣子我們台商有冒險犯難的精神好 那副駿你先不要走問你一題剛剛徐欣盈也很著急然後我們王美惠要選市長也很著急來看下一張再下一張好 再下一張"},{"start":615.478,"end":640.494,"text":"來 委員我告訴你 再來一張 郝龍斌 劉彩薇招AI合成影片趙少康直指中國借選 我不知道副主委你還記不記得這個新聞 是我記得那當然他這個是政黨內的選舉啦其實不在 中選會有請喔 也不在中選會的規範範圍當中對不對可是主席 我們現在的主席 王美惠委員自己現在是嘉義市長候選人的提名人 本黨的提名人"},{"start":641.375,"end":666.574,"text":"確實他們非常擔心在選前相關AI合成影片可是我就問最好笑的是國民黨這些委員遇到自己黨內主席在選舉的時候趙少康都出來講話的沒有一個立法委員跟趙少康站在一起沒有一個人敢像趙少康一樣公開的說中國請你收回去你的手中國請你不要跨境管轄中國請你不要介入台灣的選舉"},{"start":667.988,"end":689.725,"text":"請停止中國借選只有趙少康敢講連趙少康的子弟兵許曉新可能都不敢講那我也很好奇喔請問中選會那個副主委請問中選會你們未來怎麼看這個事情其實我知道他們黨主席選舉不關你的事可是未來2026地方大選就關你們的事情所以中選會這邊目前有什麼防範的做法包委員就是還是就是說現行的這個選報如果是"},{"start":697.778,"end":719.475,"text":"這個用這個電腦合成技術的這些深微影音的部分那候選人如果知悉的話他是可以這個付費向警察機關來申請鑑識然後再向若是經鑑識為偽造的話深讀這個偽造影音的話那是可以向這些廣電媒體來申請下架"},{"start":719.815,"end":728.849,"text":"那這些廣電媒體是兩日內就要移除或下架或限制瀏覽那如果沒有的話是可以處罰環那如果是"},{"start":730,"end":754.476,"text":"有其他的特定的意圖是使人不當選的這個是有刑責的這是可以104條是可以處7年以下有期徒刑的對 那我來說一下現在本黨委員李博義跟吳立華委員提案修改反滲透法就是希望一 罰則要增加刑度再來就是把所謂的黨內初選 政黨提名罷免公投跟列入期間 下一張所以這有可能可以讓中選會作為參考"},{"start":755.817,"end":768.521,"text":"所以我確實要說這一次要修反滲透法本黨所有提案的委員確實把現在我們在民間不管是透過社團法人組織或者是個人在平日或者是選舉的時候可能影響的樣態其實"},{"start":770.942,"end":798.709,"text":"方方面面都修法考慮進去了我真的希望後續在逐條討論的時候在野黨的委員不要抱著法理的精神說我們都支持法理的精神我們都支持民主法治我們都希望修出一個不要違憲的版本那我就說你們就來支持相關的樣態不管是各式各樣的選舉不管是加重刑罰或者是設立國家安全專業法庭如同剛剛所有主管機關所說的我們跟中國之間的關係確實是越來越緊張但"},{"start":800.349,"end":826.842,"text":"我們是被害人我要再次強調台灣跟中國的關係越來越緊張的前提是台灣是被害人加害人是中國極權政府是習近平政府請在野黨委員不要再搞錯狀況不要再指責被害人繼續加害在被害人身上變成所謂的在台協力者所以我們辦公室全力支持反滲透法相關提案的修法也請各個主管機關我們一起努力喔謝謝 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"167085","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167085","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0d2777b0edb97f20e307671192a7c66aa7971867d125216ca7cccb990385a62e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"13:03:22 - 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謝謝主席 那請我們石部長以及我們這個國發會副主委請部長副主委廖委員好"},{"start":20.103,"end":35.419,"text":"想要先請教一下部長今天這個議題是蠻嚴肅的那想要請教一下部長今年是10.7萬嘛那你們過去總共花了8年花了多少錢在嫂子女的預算上5931億那連年跌下來那請教一下"},{"start":42.079,"end":67.164,"text":"你認為這個問題嚴不嚴重嚴重啊很嚴重嗎對請國發會主委請問這個副主委高副主委你覺得嚴不嚴重這對於國家未來當然嚴重因為影響整個人口結構非常嚴重是不是有沒有到非常嚴重我覺得它是一個很重要的議題對國家未來發展包含勞動力包含未來基本上我想要跟大家說明一下這個Elon Musk就是特斯拉執行長"},{"start":68.004,"end":94.265,"text":"他最近就說他最近也公開對於南韓的生育率表示很驚訝他還警告如果南韓的生育率持續的低迷未來南韓甚至不需要北韓的這個發動戰爭他人口崩潰就會直接讓這個國家從地圖上消失那之前他對於台灣也有評論過沒有新生兒就沒有文明而且我們的這個出生率是更比比起韓國怎麼樣"},{"start":95.819,"end":117.241,"text":"比前面怎麼樣更糟糕這次是不是更糟糕算是最低了是吧部長要不要這個部長回應一下吧這個差不多了我們跟這個南海韓這兩個國家是是不是算是全球非常低最低可是可以說最低對啦對比南韓糟糕吧"},{"start":118.776,"end":138.337,"text":"正確的數字還沒看到啦那如果是以剛剛已經有很多數據出來啦對啊是吧因為南韓的數據我們還沒看到那是不是已經現在算是前年的話是所以我們比我們差一點啊但是常常網路上說真的好想你南韓啊我們現在的出生率真的贏他了最低啊非常的糟糕"},{"start":139.378,"end":146.765,"text":"所以我想要問一下部長請問一下你對於過去我們的執政黨花了5931億達到這樣的成績你打幾分"},{"start":151.301,"end":170.001,"text":"我覺得我們過去我們也算過這5930億裡面的84%都用在0到6歲那每一個家庭我們認為這個挹注是不是不夠我們要再思考啦所以我想問的是你打幾分成績一直低落身為一個執政黨要負責吧 對吧"},{"start":170.641,"end":190.615,"text":"對於這樣子的事當然你是剛剛當部長沒有多久但是身為一個執政黨一個政府應該要負責吧我們沒有要黨派喔這是如果一個公司的CEO讓他的公司這個所有的表現一直越來越差誰要負責CEO要負責是不是那執政黨是不是要負這個責你們的你對於這樣的表現到底你打幾分"},{"start":191.475,"end":209.282,"text":"我想我們還有努力的空間我們不應該給自己打分數但是我們要持續的努力這個還有很大的部長如果不願意面對就是不敢打分數不願意面對就不會解決問題今天很多人說這個多久以前提過然後這個有相關的法案"},{"start":210.302,"end":231.675,"text":"但是我們在這段時間審法案以來就知道沒有壓力你們根本就是在拖嘛一直在拖嘛沒有想要給一個方向沒有想要有創新的思維那今天就又說我們要再研議要再花多少時間幾場公聽會我不知道我們國家有幾年可以再等喔真的我不知道我非常語重心長喔"},{"start":233.328,"end":259.916,"text":"所以今天我可能要主席要多花一點時間就是其實我想要跟你說我們現在是不是可以好好討論嘛大家都想要好好討論嘛所以本席就靠這個時間來好好的講而不是用一些知諱末節想要拖延大家來面對這件事情或者是不去做結構性的改變不去做創新的方式你們沒有任何創新的方式就只有一直這樣子下去啊那你再補多少錢進來都不夠嘛 對吧"},{"start":261.636,"end":272.566,"text":"那你也沒辦法一次補到位所以我必須說現在我們少子化對策其實是過度依賴短期的所得維持的手段所得維持的手段因為"},{"start":274.059,"end":294.499,"text":"因為我沒有否認像我也贊同部長說的現在的每一分錢我覺得花在都是必要的支出可是你沒有解決問題啊所以你需要雙軌甚至是另外的思維也必須把這個所謂的面對資產價格膨脹或者是階級固化的結構性的挑戰其實你單純的這個給付這個"},{"start":297.942,"end":318.358,"text":"這個過去的手段是沒有辦法對於年輕世代未來經濟沒有辦法解決他們對於未來經濟的深層焦慮喔所以今天我們討論這個TFA就是台灣未來賬戶其實我們想要表達的事情是這樣子的模式是希望透過政府早期介入跟長期的複利效應"},{"start":319.847,"end":332.415,"text":"旨在要為每一位台灣的兒童建立起起碼的資本存量這不僅是教育基金他更希望可以破除現在的這個代季的貧窮循環的關鍵問題"},{"start":336.468,"end":355.704,"text":"所以我想要說其實我們要將這個預算從消耗性的支出的思維的思維轉化成這個資本性的投資希望可以讓這個社會的投資報酬在未來是可以回來的所以我們的概念應該是叫做為我們國家的下一代為他們存股"},{"start":357.12,"end":385.378,"text":"國家為了下一代存股這樣子的一個戰略的思維所以我想我想要回應一件事情大家在拖在想說沿路討論其實已經討論很久了所以維持現狀其實就是現在最大的財政風險維持現狀就是現在最大的財政風險所以我們進一步來看現在我們的社會結構雙重危機我會稍微快一點極端的財富分配不均以及崩潰的出生率"},{"start":387.033,"end":412.737,"text":"所以我想要說一件事情就是過去這段時間以來喔台灣的我想要請教一下你們知不知道現在貧富差距變多少有不同的算法一個是前20%跟後20%66.9倍我講給你聽啦但是如果依照過去這個民進黨在執這個執以馬政府時期的用前5%後5%你知道多少嗎"},{"start":413.817,"end":416.941,"text":"那個是財稅資料嗎對對所以150倍對150倍對不對對嘛你要不要回答一下是不是"},{"start":421.974,"end":446.796,"text":"好你們不知道但是我不想在這裡糾纏喔就是這個數字因為你剛剛也點頭所以事實上我們希望做到的事情其實剛剛這個我想部長也有講到為什麼你說這個現在少子化你們去研究他們從這個你覺得現在主要原因是不婚嘛是不是不婚那不婚背後的深層的考量是什麼這個還要再進一步研究啦"},{"start":448.09,"end":462.225,"text":"我跟你說啦數據的統計分析現在我們少子化的國安危機是從不想生到養不起到你剛說的不敢婚就是不婚不敢婚所以他背後有很大的一個因素是經濟的不安全感"},{"start":463.803,"end":482.914,"text":"你們過去投資了這麼多你已經投資了5931億了結果他們是很多的調查或者是網路的輿論也都表示年輕人不敢婚不生的核心原因不是因為討厭小孩是深層的經濟恐懼他擔心一個是階級複製的焦慮"},{"start":485.41,"end":514.743,"text":"一個是育兒成本的長期性他不只是短期你補貼他這些短期的消費他對於他長期包含教育居住創業等等高昂的資本支出他是一個長期投資他都覺得你現在的這個每個月多少錢他算是杯水車薪啊所以你現在的補貼政策你頂多叫做給他一個起碼生存的生存的一個重點而已你只是給他一個起碼最低最低位所以你沒有辦法刺激到他想生嘛"},{"start":516.417,"end":540.42,"text":"對不對好 下一頁好 再下一頁所以其實剛剛有提到不敢生不敢婚剛剛當然包含這個經濟的問題包含了居住正義的問題但是今天不展開居住正義我們就回來這裡嘛剛剛就講所以你們過去投資了5931億結果全國最低這就是現在的成果所以你要面對啊 部長你要打分數啊完全不及格啊花了這麼多錢那下一頁"},{"start":542.366,"end":570.712,"text":"好 所以剛剛也有講到基本上都是用這種所謂的補貼思維在做那我們不是否認補貼 補貼要持續做可是你一定要有創新的角度來切入嘛所以這就是我們講的 過去你是一個消費型的補貼你缺乏了負力思維 甚至你有可能資源錯置因為審計部的報告也指出許多計畫的項目執行率低甚至淪為所謂大傻逼 缺乏戰略高度"},{"start":572.597,"end":578.587,"text":"所以這個部分真的要給你們好好的建議好好的討論針對這個你有沒有什麼想要表達的"},{"start":581.307,"end":603.08,"text":"對 這個確實我們要有更開創性的思考沒有錯是 所以今天我們就要跟你討論這個開創性的思考所以台灣未來賬戶我覺得不要覺得說是哪一個政黨提出或是不是執政黨提出就不想接受我覺得大家今天真的也是我也覺得大家都很關心我們大家就好好討論所以我們進入細節譬如說這個基本上我們政策核心架構"},{"start":604.261,"end":620.221,"text":"TFA提出的我想不僅是一個福利政策我們更也是一個整體戰略思維的金融工程我們也希望透過這樣子的力量來解決社會問題那當然包含這上面有的適用對象0到12歲台灣的孩童大概是226萬"},{"start":622.58,"end":637.98,"text":"那普遍性的福利也會打破所謂排富條款標籤化的效應喔這個也是一個可以思考的點因為你們剛剛一直會說他是不是要把錢只放在什麼中低收入戶啊低收入戶啊等等的其實等一下也會討論到目前成效就是不好"},{"start":638.701,"end":664.815,"text":"對吧 成效就不好然後再來就是政府提撥嘛當然就是有個啟動資金剛剛很多委員也講到可能啟動資金稍微高一點1100多億可是憑良心講啊你們在補貼電費這個想要補貼台電隨便也是兩三千億然後買這個軍購也是隨便一開就1.25兆我實在是沒有辦法想說為什麼這1000多億你覺得投資在我們台灣的下一代會覺得好像沒有錢或是做不到"},{"start":665.655,"end":682.82,"text":"然後第三個點是家長提撥他是自願性質的不是說強制要求他提撥而且他也有個額度的上限那再來資金的管理是中央集中管理我覺得就是類似我們可以比照一下勞退基金的模式"},{"start":683.3,"end":704.302,"text":"那投資標的當然就是追蹤這個比較大型的好這穩定的也不會說被說什麼個股操作的風險吧他就是等於是跟著金融市場在成長的情況之下去去做成長好所以還有最後當然有個提領的限制啊那這個部分當然很多細節我認為都可以開放式討論找出更佳的方案"},{"start":705.285,"end":726.469,"text":"好那所以我就要進一步講一下不知道這個部長有沒有知道過去台股歷年喔因為你們大家會講說當然有高高低低啦會有高高低低有時候這個賺多一點有時候賺少一點有時候虧錢可是其實我們要用長遠來看我想這個勞保基金也都是這樣講所以歷年來他平均的利潤是多少"},{"start":728.221,"end":744.737,"text":"這個我沒有在買賣股票對好你不知道嘛那我這裡就給你看嘛其實基本上如果是悲觀的情境4.0%好那就是大概悲觀的情況是4%那如果複利下去的話可能是24.5萬"},{"start":746.579,"end":763.256,"text":"那再來保守情境就是好一點5.9%5.9%那最後就是可以是大概28萬那再來當然也有算法是可能33.9萬56萬那中立的話是8%那如果用現在台股過去的歷史平均11.9%如果他這當時都參與進去的話他現在是有85萬"},{"start":769.642,"end":794.15,"text":"對 那當然這是歷史數據我們就是深刻討論所以即使在最保守的情境之下18歲時累積的近三十萬的資本 資金對於富裕家庭他可能是 當然可能是零用錢但對於弱勢家庭的青年他這筆錢是有可能改變他的命運的資金他也足夠可能支付他的學費 生活費或者是作為這個技職創業的第一筆資金"},{"start":795.971,"end":807.864,"text":"而且更重要的是什麼如果他台股維持歷年的歷史表現的話他的這個資金是徹底改變一個年輕人的起跑點他可能不會一出社會就背負學債"},{"start":809.779,"end":825.668,"text":"甚至他如果沒有家長可以給他一個什麼房屋的頭期款他這個部分他也可以去做那他有個房現在剛剛講你不敢婚嘛不敢婚背後就當然就是他可能買不起房然後婚了之後他可能養不起家嘛這是一個也很大的因素"},{"start":826.648,"end":838.063,"text":"所以我想我們今天要討論的就是說我們這個制度的設計的創新啦我們希望從這個消費型的福利轉向投資型的福利的概念思維的轉變我們要從救濟變到投資"},{"start":842.228,"end":857.446,"text":"因為傳統社福可能一直是比較屬於是補貼給魚吃那這個現在的這個設計是希望也給他一個釣竿給他資本把兒童視為國家未來資產而且而不是財政的負擔因為你們一直在講類似財政的負擔"},{"start":858.507,"end":885.598,"text":"那再來另外一個觀念就是從短期到長期我們要跳脫年度預算的短視其實它是一個長期承諾那當然這個具有一定的挑戰性那對於國家發展但是它至關重要剛剛講到非常嚴重未來沒有人再參與在這個市場上我們等於是沒有文明那當然再來就是一個金融的包容性因為要透過國家的力量要讓這個原本被排斥在金融市場之外的弱勢兒童能夠"},{"start":886.718,"end":906.135,"text":"零門檻的參與資本市場享受經濟成長的紅利這也是為什麼我們剛剛前面要提到貧富差距越大是因為真的有參與這樣所謂的金融市場的太少了嗎太少所以這段時間貧富差距變成150倍是誰的錯我覺得就是政府沒有想到這樣子的事情的錯好再來"},{"start":910.475,"end":934.902,"text":"我想我們剛剛講到也有一直有人講到說現在衛福部就有相關的這個計畫啦那我就想要告訴你們說現在目前為止從數據顯示他的局限性開戶率的瓶頸8年的推廣到2024年底開戶率66%嘛那代表說有三成多的小朋友需要的弱勢兒童根本沒有被覆蓋到"},{"start":936.721,"end":951,"text":"再來存款的中斷率高即使開了戶也常常有發生家庭的這個經濟結局斷供喔好雖然所以其實這還是一個很大的問題再來是資金規模的限制啊好那這都是現在"},{"start":952.242,"end":966.62,"text":"主要你們存在所謂的這個定存利息所以你們沒有投資增值的功能所以在通膨環境下他基本上他在前方那裡是被吃掉的所以我想這個你們應該都要知道應該都要去檢討"},{"start":968.206,"end":996.594,"text":"那再來剛剛有一隻有講可能有人我們當然可以討論你怎麼排富要不要排富可是我想要說其實現行的制度你在做這樣子的事情的時候你也有一個副作用什麼樣的副作用呢有三個第一個是標籤化的效應其實申請該帳戶等於是某種程度上也會承認自己是貧戶啊對於有一些邊緣戶或者是邊緣戶你覆蓋不到之外自尊心強的家庭也可能就沒有就會卻步他可能就不參與"},{"start":998.334,"end":1012.715,"text":"那所以你基本上你福利未達再來第二個貧窮陷阱我想這也不用多贅述第三個還有一個龐大的行政積合成本所以你們之前做很多事就是就是這個部分也是要考量的所以"},{"start":1013.416,"end":1038.713,"text":"總而言之我想還是一樣現行的制度是一個救助思維的產物你僅能夠說勉強維持底線但是我們今天討論的TFA台灣未來賬戶它是一個發展思維的產物我們希望能夠為所有的兒童創造向上流動的動力這兩個層次是不一樣所以我認為它不要互相排擠那你應該要開創新的思維"},{"start":1039.754,"end":1066.694,"text":"所以剛其實後來也有講到啦比如說也有講說英國英國有做啊為什麼為什麼他取消了我想這個就是你們要去用功一下嘛大家用這個來用短暫的去說因為英國失敗我們就不該做是不對的他為什麼錯為什麼他做不下去他的管理是去中心化的英國政府他發放貸金券讓家長自行去銀行或投資機構開戶結果導致市場碎片化家長面臨選擇困難"},{"start":1067.955,"end":1080.582,"text":"高昂的手續費 他賬戶分散在私人金融機構 管理成本非常的高昂機構也收取高額的管理費 可能有1.5%嚴重的侵蝕獲利還有一個是賬戶休眠 截至2023年他聽說有17億的英鎊約680億的台幣的資金沒有人認領近百萬的年輕人也錯失了這筆錢"},{"start":1088.866,"end":1100.374,"text":"再來一個是金融素養的落差啦富裕家庭他可能選擇股票型的基金報酬高那貧窮家庭就是選擇現金存款報酬又低好所以這也是他發生的問題好下一頁"},{"start":1101.86,"end":1126.214,"text":"所以當然我們可以去我們現在的設計就是希望說去這個針對他的去中心化跟遺失去做補強所以類似勞退一樣如果他像最近勞退表現不是特別好嗎10幾%平均10幾%那真的是對他們來講是很好的一件事情那再來針對投資落差所以你可以追蹤大盤指數確保他們享有相同的投資報酬率"},{"start":1127.247,"end":1147.452,"text":"好 下一頁好 那當然我們也要參考一下新加坡的這個兒童培育戶頭啦他可能還更靈活一點點這個我們未來都可以去檢討不過這裡時間因素我就不贅述下一頁好 所以這是幾個國家目前有的東西的比較如果到時候部長你們需要的話我再提供給你們那下一頁再下一頁沒關係"},{"start":1150.39,"end":1158.667,"text":"好所以剛剛有講到如果說是接近勞退基金的模式的話事實上很多的問題是可解決的好那下一頁好"},{"start":1162.998,"end":1185.523,"text":"好 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fund就是政府比如說給1萬每年給1萬我們家長1萬是不是可以免稅"},{"start":532.234,"end":560.289,"text":"報告委員要看是討論什麼稅如果以所得稅來講的話如果以所得稅來講我們就講說像這種所謂存款好了現在我如果把課稅完的所得我拿去做儲蓄我放在銀行的本金我去投資所謂的股票基本上就是一個資金的運用嘛這是所謂所得的運用那基本上都是不能扣這是全世界在綜合所得稅所以你是反對就對了啦簡單來講"},{"start":561.129,"end":578.534,"text":"你反對就對了報告委員這是有一個基本的一個就是你反對啦這樣不規保我們不規保鼓勵就像一個勞退的概念勞退基金說你提6%那是不一樣的提6%個人提6%我們給他免所得稅一樣的概念啊報告委員那個是叫做一樣的意思啊"},{"start":578.914,"end":605.702,"text":"先不課後課我們那個是用先不課簡單講叫延期給付所得的概念所以在你提撥當時因為已經不在你支配範圍叫不計入所得課稅等到以後你領是要課稅的好啦你那個宋署長我知道你意思你判推就對了啦這大家記住喔推動少子化我們希望鼓勵這個政府給一萬我們家長一萬一萬可以扣所得稅宋署長判對"},{"start":607.424,"end":609.648,"text":"我們來看今天國安基金要開會"},{"start":621.991,"end":643.884,"text":"要開委員會這個國務署的馬副署長你知道這個事吧知道今天是就是例行就是要開會的時間對那現在指數破三萬點成交量破兆包括上市上櫃加起來過去進場的理由我們這次國安基金已經在裡面多久了"},{"start":650.779,"end":660.887,"text":"歷史以來最長的一次過去的理由是關稅台美關稅沒搞定大家覺得不貼心提高國際地緣政治"},{"start":662.408,"end":677.054,"text":"這個地方打仗那個地方打仗這兩個條件都沒有喪失所以根據這兩個條件台美關稅沒搞定啊國安基金不應該退場可是大家都知道市場要管的是量不是價"},{"start":678.854,"end":701.968,"text":"但是現在成交量都破兆了按照這個理由他就應該要退場可是這兩個你要不要講一下就是說的確就是在川普關稅跟台灣的這個談判還沒有定案所以這部分的不確定因素還在不過就是的確就是最近的成交量是都不上兆"},{"start":703.509,"end":718.207,"text":"所以就是說今天下午會討論這些然後就是會有一個我請教政經局的那個局長 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從署長到部長 你的表情越來越嚴肅所以我看得出來其實我們要做的努力其實非常非常多少子女化的問題是我們長期在衛黃文匯關注的議題這絕對不是只有一個衛福部應該努力的方向跨部會大家都應該一起來思考"},{"start":40.433,"end":57.463,"text":"賴總統也特別重視少子女化的問題所以我們成立在上一週我們成立了兒少跟家庭支持署在司法法治委員會才剛審查完我們希望透過這些政策來累積更多的資源來對於兒少來有更多的照顧"},{"start":58.323,"end":78.46,"text":"但是我們看到這幾年包括內政部在上個星期我們的新生兒114年新生兒的人數從10萬7812人已經跌破11萬的大關我們原本還預計說龍年龍子龍女會不會多一點可是可見現在龍子龍女好像也失效所以這年是蛇年"},{"start":80.602,"end":103.475,"text":"對 但是前幾年龍年也沒有因為龍年龍子龍女特別多所以連續10年我們新生兒人數持續的探低已經達到生不如死的年代那國發會在113年10月份也公佈所以在113到159的年的人口推估我們的推估的值新生兒的數值是125,526人但是實際上"},{"start":107.617,"end":134.002,"text":"我們的人數我們實際生育人數其實還沒有達到12萬可見國發會的人數退估人數比我們本來預估的人數還要多所以可見生育人數是越來越少減少將近14%所以我們少子女化的政策2.0我剛才在辦公室特別把你1.0跟2.0拉出來包括剛才劉建國委員也有質詢"},{"start":135.402,"end":156.368,"text":"我觉得我们过去这几年无论是1.0也好2.0也好我们都着重在生育养育创造更好的怀孕的环境或者是出生儿的环境给大家但是你知道当一个新婚的家庭夫妻也好准备要不要生小孩的时候他不会只有想到"},{"start":157.168,"end":172.129,"text":"我懷孕期跟兩三歲或甚至是0到6歲他一定是討論說我們以後要結婚我們大概生幾個他會想到說整個孩子成長的過程我們夫妻到底有多少能力去養育這個孩子"},{"start":173.03,"end":193.827,"text":"所以我覺得我們在討論未來帳戶的時候不是只有討論事後的補救貧窮或者讓每一個孩子都在同樣盡量拉在同樣的起跑點上我覺得更要去思考的是投資下一代的未來這是我今天我質詢這個重點我要強化的地方那我看到你這1.0跟2.0我覺得都沒有錯但是"},{"start":197.871,"end":212.806,"text":"從現在的不婚不生頂客族不婚不生或者是晚婚晚生我就應該分兩大塊不婚不生像我助理很多都已經不婚不生他們都已經決定不婚不生那現在要生要婚"},{"start":213.627,"end":230.771,"text":"有沒有可能從一點我生一個我們有沒有更好的誘因去讓他生兩個三個這個可能還容易達到一點不小心又懷孕了一個想辦法養得起這當然都是目標我覺得所以我要講的就是說在政策在工具上我覺得我們應該不斷的去轉換思考換心"},{"start":234.436,"end":260.034,"text":"這個不行 這個正式試兩年不行我們要不要再加入什麼樣的工具這個掃指你畫 我看到那個數據 幫我跳一下日本跟韓國你看我們的數據我們亞鄰國家2025年的出生率我們才4.62 每千人我們才4個人4.62人 日本還有5個人韓國有6.7人 我們在亞洲國家我們還是倒數的 可見"},{"start":261.135,"end":290.179,"text":"我們這些工具我們現在有的1.0或即將有的2.0的政策工具我覺得我不能說不夠好誘因仍舊是不夠的我想部長你承認嘛副主委你也承認嘛這些都是問題當我們現在不創新去做更多工具的處理的時候未來我們可能都要花更多的資源去做投資譬如說勞參率10年20年之後我們人在哪裡不要講現在各行各業都找不到工具"},{"start":290.339,"end":308.42,"text":"现在这个年代都已经找不到工更何况十年二十年后你医生你现在医生也在缺工对不对你医生以后要难道引进外国人来当医生吗就是这个可能又是很大的挑战所以我觉得我们在讨论未来账户的时候我觉得不应该只去思考到"},{"start":309.595,"end":328.866,"text":"錢的部分因為我們在投資未來這個是我要我覺得我要提醒你觀念應該要調整的地方所以創新的作為是事實上是有必要的那去年人力網站澄清調查家庭總收入至少要花到要有足夠11.3萬元才能力養一個孩子"},{"start":329.306,"end":346.734,"text":"也就是說夫妻平均的月薪要達5.6萬元才養得起孩子那也高於主計總出估的4.78萬所以我們當我們在做一些政策的時候我們去預估夠可是事實上外面的通膨各方面孩子還有後面的什麼"},{"start":348.194,"end":364.02,"text":"補習啦還有什麼學習歷程要去做培養那個額外的經費都是我們現在我們到我們這個年紀我們可能想像不到那個新的新的育兒的那些費用不斷的在增加所以舊的方法是做不出新的結果"},{"start":365.76,"end":381.909,"text":"所以我覺得我們不應該是說排斥性的去做哪些事情而是我們要認真去思考每一個政策我們去做研究評估他未來他可能10年20年後他可能帶給我們的效應是什麼我們這個政府不是只在解決現在這4年的問題"},{"start":384.321,"end":401.881,"text":"我們也要為未來多留一點我們的基底平常我們之前台積電不是二三十年前我們有台積電如果過去沒有投資台積電的話怎麼會有現在的護國神山所以我們在為台灣投資未來這是我們現在身為政務官我們行政部門應該要做的地方"},{"start":404.214,"end":415.807,"text":"你們剛才劉建國委員也有質詢到我們現在當然也有發展帳戶發展帳戶其實不是不好 而是我們現在開辦8年來我們整體的開戶率只有65%"},{"start":417.91,"end":445.871,"text":"公司也有提醒說做一個期末報告提醒說現在包括低收入戶也好中低收入戶也好就是說大家沒有進來投資最主要的原因是達到31.67跟39.86最主要是他們覺得沒有錢可以儲蓄就是說即便政府投第一桶金他沒有配合款可是憑良心講我覺得這都可以有配套措施我先幫你投一點未來用什麼樣的方式我當你因為"},{"start":446.471,"end":461.899,"text":"他可能過幾年他可能條件突然好或者是我現在沒問題我過幾年我可能我的家庭收入又有問題就是那條線有時候會是移動的所以我更認為有政策工具可以去做處理這不是不能解決的事情"},{"start":463.117,"end":490.439,"text":"因为一个家庭的总收入其实是跟着父母的工作情态状况家里的有一些变化的因素都是滚动式的做调整所以当我面对那么多的不确定性的时候我很难去下定决心新婚夫妻或年轻的夫妻去敢去生第二个第三个但是当我很明确看到十年二十年之后我只要养到高中"},{"start":491.34,"end":506.434,"text":"高中畢業之後我政府有第一桶金放在那邊他要出國留學他要自己念大學都擺在那邊了所以那個給家長足夠的信心你知道嗎因為我們義務教育到高中所以我覺得"},{"start":507.779,"end":530.396,"text":"不要去摒除就是說國民黨藍白的這些草案一定不好我們背後的思考而且這些背後的思考也都有其他國際的研究來去佐證來支持我們這個法案所以我才希望說不要去想說這是藍綠的法案而是這個是拯救我們台灣少子女化未來的一個法案所以我希望用這樣的心情"},{"start":531.156,"end":541.903,"text":"思維去考慮這個未來帳戶現在兒少發展帳戶隱含著你要為自己投資未來 你要自己先負責所以你要自己先投 政府才投"},{"start":543.584,"end":567.619,"text":"中低收入家庭他根本連自己都拿不出來他怎麼你政府投多少他都沒有那個錢頭連現在都每個月可能補習費都付不出來沒有辦法讓孩子去補習了更何況他要再去拿錢出來跟你投資我想你同意你應該同意了解我的說法所以社公司我也已經看了社公司對於國際研究也有指出對於家庭跟兒童"},{"start":569.14,"end":596.321,"text":"如果做一個未來賬戶的話對於很多家庭跟兒童的養育或教育或照顧的話我覺得會產生更多的正面的影響如果我們有一桶金擺在那邊我家長堅持我就是養到高中大學孩子自己去處理或者是我們有第一桶金擺在那邊給他一個未來那咬著牙身為父母都會堅持下去我覺得這樣子的態度對於很多"},{"start":597.182,"end":616.347,"text":"想生第二個想生第三個他們就會好吧咬牙咬著牙一起咬著牙一起辛苦一點一起所以我覺得朝這方面去做更多的思考所以我也要提醒部長你們在這段時間我看不斷對外放話說未來賬戶初期的經費就超過已經超過1185"},{"start":619.507,"end":642.972,"text":"如果每年再提拨1萬到12歲的話12年要2844億元總共需求你們對外不斷的放話是4030億元但是我要提醒的就是說每一年事實上首年需要比較高的啟動資金外其餘都是12年分年編列當我們都可以花1.25兆買軍購的武器"},{"start":647.006,"end":669.808,"text":"當這些武器沒有年輕人才去做操作買那麼多武器怎麼去處理所以我覺得不能只看現在很多事情應該去投資長遠所以我要再次強調事後補救我們少子女化補救貧窮不是不需要當然要我們現在一直在做"},{"start":670.248,"end":688.566,"text":"但是少子女化的問題很顯然我們這些政策工具沒有辦法處理所以要有創新的思維事前投資下一代改善家庭改善夫妻對於養育的更多正向的思考國際上有研究我想你有看到所以不要排斥它"},{"start":689.227,"end":709.069,"text":"你一直點頭代表你同意我的說法嗎我都很同意啦就是說從兒童投資的角度來投資未來 投資兒童這個是值得去研究會不會因為這些政策讓夫妻願意多生第二個 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謝謝主席我們請史部長請部長好 李委員好部長好 辛苦了今天在討論這個台灣未來帳戶特別條例那我看他的這個說明裡面說要解決少子化的問題那也要投資下一代但是實際上兩個問題都沒辦法去處理所以他是問對了問題但是拿錯了藥方"},{"start":31.525,"end":46.355,"text":"那我看了一下他這個是長達18年長達18年的一個資產的累積18歲之後才可以用那所以他沒有辦法減輕家長目前的負擔那也沒有辦法去提升這個生育的一個意願第二個就是說"},{"start":47.256,"end":67.657,"text":"它的條例呢 它沒有排富的設計那所以呢 會使得這個高所得的家庭呢可以自己提款 或是說雇主的一個補助進一步的累積資產 然後形成了逆向的補貼的效果會讓這一個富者越富 貧者越貧所以也沒有達到說 這一個要投資下一代的一個效果"},{"start":68.257,"end":93.431,"text":"那當然啦我們這個衛福部目前有所謂的一個兒少教育發展專一個帳戶那這個帳戶呢用意也是良好但是效果不好效果不好從這個2017年到現在的這段時間以來我們的這個開戶率是多少百分之大概65左右然後呢我們的開戶的人數大概才36000多39000多"},{"start":98.021,"end":119,"text":"整個數量還是很少啊就是說我們希望達到這一個協助孩子脫貧那所以呢我們希望說他未來長大之後呢不要形成這個貧窮的代監的一個循環那可是呢你說這個18歲18年的時間一年最多才3萬嘛對不對"},{"start":120.722,"end":140.935,"text":"一年最多三萬 政府最多一萬五然後呢 家長最多也是一萬五一年最多三萬 18年就五十四萬五十四萬啊 18年之後你被通膨就不知道吃掉多少了所以它其實是 好像是幫你儲蓄但是它是存了一個死錢它沒有投資的一個概念"},{"start":142.174,"end":167.911,"text":"就我們有些委員提到就是說有希望有說像什麼轉大人ETF那個就具有投資的概念當然有一些條款還要再去做考論就是說我們的這個兒少的這個教育發展帳戶他只是幫你存錢但是存了54萬你說要幫他脫貧其實效果也是有限那你說這個要投資下一代要投資他54萬其實老實講"},{"start":169.992,"end":196.786,"text":"他沒有什麼投資的一個作用啦因為他就是沒有 因為他就是存 他不是投資他就是存一個死錢 那利率就是這麼低那所以到目前為止 大家也談了這麼多了那如果我們先用 現在衛福部現在正在推動這個兒少教育發展帳戶來講的話有什麼需要檢討的 可以改進的現在按照這個條例來做"},{"start":199.32,"end":215.786,"text":"跟委員幫我們現在也在檢討從三個方面去思考第一個就是說你怎麼去擴大適用的對象因為我們目前鎖定的低收入跟中低收入整個含納進來對象不過6萬人左右所以如何讓能夠照顧的人更多所以你們照顧的對象"},{"start":218.747,"end":247.207,"text":"社會對象會增加到什麼樣的範圍往邊緣戶就是擴大那個這個就是在邊緣的這個弱勢家庭增加多少人人數上的話大概會可以擴大到24萬大的話總人數可以到現在是6萬嘛可以有4倍就是差不多24萬這個是人數的擴大第二個是說能不能挹注多一點對啊最多政府一年就"},{"start":248.447,"end":271.898,"text":"1.5萬嘛對對對能不能多一點比如說我們去提高對波的相對的比例還是怎麼樣這個是第二個考量那第三個當然就是程序上怎麼讓他簡化然後更多的輔助讓他可以延續這個這個儲蓄這樣開戶因為我們現在開戶沒有那麼高那我怎麼來協助他讓我們的行政的程序更簡化"},{"start":272.498,"end":289.151,"text":"你們自己有委託這個學術單位做一個研究報告你有沒有看過那個研究報告有有有那個研究報告我看過我問一下現在是一戶只有一個小孩可以開戶嗎就是說符合資格的沒有只要符合資格有幾個每個都可以每個都可以就自己一個獨立的那"},{"start":289.571,"end":314.97,"text":"不是自動開戶不是說符合資格就自動開戶沒有你自己要去申請那這個也是研究報告裡面提到就是說這個為什麼開戶率這麼低不高六成五的原因就是說他不是這個自動幫你開戶你符合資格了我就幫你開戶然後我錢就存進去沒有我自己還要去我自己還要去申請嘛對不對那如果改成用這個自動開戶的方式"},{"start":317.438,"end":344.625,"text":"這個申請率會再提高嗎因為你就算你範圍有擴大了比如說從6萬變成24萬那搞不好開戶率還是那麼低啊能照顧的還是有限啊這個行政程序上我們會來檢討他們到底是要簡化程序還是說要改成變成是我們自動幫他開戶這也是簡化程序的一種啊這個也可以討論現在還沒有定案就對了還沒有定案但是如果自動開戶是不是會比較好一點"},{"start":345.925,"end":366.871,"text":"有利有弊啦 因為這後續他還是要去存的那就是說政府先幫你存了嘛也不是說政府幫你存了那你不存你們現在的條例是說政府幫你存你不存你也是沒辦法領出來的啊就是開戶金我們也許可以思考怎麼讓他簡化一點或者是自動的幫他開了讓他知道"},{"start":368.191,"end":394.532,"text":"我覺得那個比例你們自己要去算一下啦當然你提高政府的這個補助那對於這個相對貧窮的家庭來講他也不一定有這些錢能夠相對投入啦我覺得這個當然你們要去提到這個要去思考一下那不過就是說不論是我看這個他們提出來這個條例裡面他們講到韓國的例子香港的例子其實都是排富的"},{"start":395.273,"end":418.401,"text":"他們其實都是針對弱勢需要照顧的人來提出來的那香港他的這個兒童發展基金他還特別把商界把它加進來說政府家庭把商界把它加進來就是說這個等於是除了政府家庭相對提撥之外他們民間可能都很有愛心台灣也是一樣那他們把這個商界的錢也把它加進來"},{"start":419.241,"end":445.88,"text":"所以他們這個餅就會做大了那未來有沒有機會朝向這個方式來做處理那鼓勵的這些企業當然我們就稅這方面我們給予看怎麼樣去做解免或是怎麼樣的如果是只針對這一群比較弱勢者然後讓這個民間也可以去藝術它然後得到一些賦稅的優勉我們現在有這樣子鼓勵民間投入嗎因為我看就是只有政府跟家庭沒有把民間的力量拉進來"},{"start":447.661,"end":463.252,"text":"沒有跟這個帳戶結合啦確實是這樣我認為是可以結合啦因為其實民間都有這個愛心你看每次遇到什麼樣社會上的一些這個臨時有什麼樣的一些變化天災地變等等台灣人都很有愛心要捐錢你如果今天跟這些"},{"start":464.253,"end":480.25,"text":"企業獎就是說這個你我們現在有一些這些孩子要照顧那是不是你企業可以也一樣我們也相對提撥一些錢進來那我們在賦稅上面可以做一些減免把這個base把它做大把它這個餅做大我覺得你們也就討論一下"},{"start":481.411,"end":510.717,"text":"那再來我們研究好之後再來提出那個修法這個就必須要涉及到修法就是說我現在先用你們這一個發展條例來做這一個以這個來做一個討論的基礎還有就是說講到投資其實你們的這個條例裡面其實都沒有投資的這個概念完全沒有就是說像這個香港或是韓國他們其實都還有理財不管是理財還是理債就是說你讓小孩子從小"},{"start":511.337,"end":530.318,"text":"就是有這個概念就是說我怎麼樣把我這個錢未來有這個機會讓它能夠增加這個教導小孩子理財或是理債的概念其實要從小就要開始啦不是當然你說玩不玩股票那是另外一回事但是你要知道說這個股票或是說基金或是怎麼樣"},{"start":530.999,"end":559.041,"text":"是他們未來是可以投資的一個標的你要先去理解再決定你要不要嘛但是我們的這個條例裡面其實沒有因為我們是儲蓄我們不是投資因為我看到我們這個條例裡面其實就是沒有因為你五四萬也不可以做什麼投資啊我覺得這方面要做處理好不好好 那這個我再提到就是說現在我們已經正式邁入了這一個高齡社會嘛對不對 超高齡社會"},{"start":561.703,"end":570.208,"text":"這個數據去年底就出來我們在2025年正式成為超高齡社會但同時呢這個台灣的人口年時降"},{"start":571.764,"end":595.766,"text":"連時降台灣的這個總人口數也連續兩年負成長所以現在大家講說生不如死那這個也 我知道政府也花了很多的錢想要提升我們的這個出生率然後呢我們對這個進入超高齡社會我看我們政府長照3.0什麼也有在做但是呢"},{"start":596.946,"end":600.583,"text":"出生率就這麼低我們如果看結果來講的話出生率就是這麼低"},{"start":602.045,"end":627.944,"text":"那請教一下部長我看這個馬斯克他不是只有關心台灣他也有關心韓國他講說我們台灣人口數持續加速崩跌然後他講到韓國他就說未來成人的尿布的數量如果超過嬰兒尿布的數量表示這個國家就是走錯路了我也很擔心說我們台灣是未來成人尿布的數量會超過嬰兒尿布的數量"},{"start":630.706,"end":650.69,"text":"如果我們現在已經有這個呈現生不如屬的一個現象了那請教一下部長你可以預測一下或是說你有什麼樣的一個信心基礎之下我們也花了這麼多經費來從我們小孩子從出生到他長大這段期間我們的出生率何時可以一直跌回升呢"},{"start":651.803,"end":672.779,"text":"跟委員說明確實我們現在這個挑戰很嚴峻雖然我們過去8年間投入這麼多對一個孩子我們平均算起來一個0到6歲的孩子投入大概120到180萬也不算少如果換回去的話一年也是在20萬左右再挹注這個家庭"},{"start":673.459,"end":694.725,"text":"那但是仍然是不見起色那我們再回頭再分析這個數字就發現那問題出在25歲到44歲的這一段女性她的這個未婚率不斷的在上升如果有走路有結婚過的那麼她的生育率的還是維持在83到90%所以是不婚"},{"start":695.705,"end":717.853,"text":"是不婚現在是在不婚的問題因為不婚率呢從1990年的21%到去年來到新高點52%所以等於然後不婚的當然這一群他的生育率就很低只是低於1%所以我們現在整個生育率下降最大的問題是在這個走入婚姻不婚這邊"},{"start":719.353,"end":734.508,"text":"那所以我們除了要催生之外我們連這個結婚這部分我們也要去加強那我們有什麼樣的計畫嗎因為現在問題已經不是到不生了現在是到不婚了難怪人家說不婚不生快樂一生"},{"start":736.569,"end":751.576,"text":"那怎麼辦所以這個問題真的是很大我們現在對於這個部分這個還沒有提出對策就對了還要再努力所以我們剛才所講的都是講說我出生之後我們在孩子在肚子裡面的時候我們給你的照顧"},{"start":752.276,"end":772.588,"text":"到長大成年 有沒有 至少到這一個六歲這個階段 那我們現在是連前面那個階段不婚都有問題了 對 沒有錯所以在我們的今年開始2.0另外一個就是要去營造一個友善的職場企業這邊也要去鼓勵等等這些都要去努力"},{"start":773.288,"end":794.614,"text":"不然大家都忙到都根本沒有時間交朋友也沒有辦法談論到這些問題好 那我最後再問一個問題好了我們這個 欸我們複稅署宋署長在嘛 來來來不過我這個要問一下我們部長我們現在關於這一個學齡前的兒童我們有一筆特別扣除額不過這個就是只有到6歲之前嘛 對不對 宋署長"},{"start":796.107,"end":804.778,"text":"對不對對 幼兒學前特別扣除我們現在有把它增加啦我們本來是這個15萬我們現在就是說第一個小孩多少 兩個小孩多少 三個小孩最多是到60萬嘛"},{"start":806.226,"end":824.743,"text":"本來一個小孩12萬現在提高到15萬第二個小孩以後可以到22.5萬這是六歲之前嘛等於扣七次一個小孩可以扣七次零歲零歲開始嘛對不對那現在這個我要問一下我們石部長好了因為我們這個特別扣除只到這個學齡前"},{"start":826.244,"end":845.171,"text":"六歲之前那如果我們有這個機會把這個讓父母他這個養育小孩的這個壓力再降低再減輕我們再用特別扣除這部分給予他們一些減輕的壓力如果能夠到18歲之前我看我看我宋署長嘴巴馬上張大了"},{"start":846.889,"end":861.368,"text":"但是部長你覺得這個對於減輕壓力應該也會有幫忙因為在這個這個小學的階段我們當然在六歲以前的話我們是給一些托育津貼或者是托育補助嘛然後到"},{"start":862.269,"end":888.589,"text":"六歲開始入學之後那麼國民教育我們的費用還算低可是往後又可能這個失效所以這個怎麼延伸到支持到18歲這個是可以研究的方式可以 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所以下一步我們應該要更著重在這個不婚這個問題上要去處理不然很難完全去解決這個生育率低的問題好 這個我們看下一張"},{"start":236.288,"end":262.841,"text":"這個衛福部這個教育局行政已經送來了這個在提出這個法案之前賴總統也特別宣佈而且還提到了解決少子女化是其中之一但是我們如果一直去從組織當然組織是可以檢討的但是如果我們從過去"},{"start":265.484,"end":288.589,"text":"這個衛生署到衛福部然後也設了社會家庭署兒童家庭署去解決這些問題如果我們去回顧我們回顧過去孩子生太多就鼓勵大家兩個恰恰好在那個年代也沒有成立一個機關"},{"start":290.219,"end":314.897,"text":"都是透過鄉鎮公所的那些公職衛生所的人員去宣傳對不對所以我們中央一直成立然後一直擴大但是地方政府還是沒有還是維持那個樣子所以這個部分是一個整體性的這個機關可以檢討但是他要不要去解決真正的問題"},{"start":317.723,"end":343.163,"text":"我不知道這樣的成立這個署會增加人數會增加嗎隨著我們業務上的需要還是要做一些人力的調整特別是這個以這個兒少及家庭署來講他除了是把一些業務做整合之外更希望那麼更專業的更聚焦的對這個兒少的問題包含從健康到他的福利"},{"start":343.723,"end":362.562,"text":"到保部 到發展因為今天不是這個為主我只不過是請衛福部包括相關的官員怎麼樣去解決真正要解決的問題所以這個部分也希望能夠去考慮我們看下一張"},{"start":364.486,"end":387.554,"text":"當然我們過去在107年6月6號公布施行兒童及少年未來教育與發展丈夫的條例本席當初也有提出相關的意見當然原住民的部分沒有被納入好我們看下一條下一條這個部分實施到現在當然時間的關係我就不多說了這個也請這個"},{"start":391.868,"end":418.062,"text":"衛福部提供我們下一張提供這個目前的執行的人數然後既有原住民身份的到底有多少因為之前我本來有提修正的條文大家說還要先執行一段時間現在已經執行這麼多年了107年現在已經115年了是不是請提供這樣的一個數據"},{"start":419.162,"end":434.619,"text":"我們再來跟園民會討論 比對一下我們要比對一下才知道因為我們在身份上並沒有特別註記內政部副政司也可以比對對 去比對一下這個身份好 謝謝謝謝委員 我們再提供給委員"}]}},{"id":"167089","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167089","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce02196b840cab744f7307671192a7c66aae007cc74e276eb87f6c8e88a0e872c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"13:56:15 - 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我們邀請部長請示部長好 我剛剛聽了"},{"start":14.096,"end":38.958,"text":"我剛剛聽了洪孟凱委員的這個質詢我覺得我非常肯定啦 肯定洪孟凱委員的質詢就是說大家在野黨或者執政黨版本都有提出不同的想法那我覺得真的就是要細緻的討論因為我在2024年吧 我看過一份研究報告在國際的期刊上面他有講到就是全世界不管是他們研究了北歐啊東南亞啦 到美國等等"},{"start":39.679,"end":52.591,"text":"他們徹底的研究然後發現說如果你要激起你的生育率你的國家投資要佔你的GDP 3%那我們剛剛講的5000多億其實一直都只有整個整體對於兒少的投資只有2%"},{"start":54.56,"end":74.593,"text":"所以這個基本上從這個數字看起來我們是有gap那再來就是大家也提到說韓國韓國那我也要跟大家再做一個我覺得也是大家可以做一個釐清啦在那份研究報告裡面特別針對韓國做了一個研究當時韓國在整個GDP的投資呢對俄兆的投資只有1%"},{"start":75.874,"end":93.392,"text":"所以他當時就有講如果韓國加碼投資之後他很快會有個生育率的boost一個高峰會先出來但是後面最終還是會回到其他的國家如果沒有達到整體%超過3%的話我不曉得部長有沒有看過這個相關的研究對 有類似這樣所以我們一直這幾年在提升這個對兒少這邊的預算"},{"start":96.639,"end":117.707,"text":"對所以這個其實是過去那其實一個基本的保底那份研究也有講到有些基礎的工作是要先做所以我想這部分也是要讓召委知道說那是一個保底的基本盤的工作要做不是沒有效那再來就是說剛剛其實有很多的委員其實都一直有提出很多的想法那我這邊也要再懇請我們的主席呢是可以來召開公聽會"},{"start":119.447,"end":148.05,"text":"讓大家來集思廣益因為版本現在還是有想法還是有蠻大的落差啦那開公聽會呢也不是拖延時間而是集思廣益讓我們所做所為可以更貼近民眾的需求那現在呢其實行政院也有在一直不停的在說因為去年有許多執政黨的委員都提出了相關的質詢我想上次我質詢的時候部長也有聽到就是行政院都已經說他們會去做擴大了所以大家其實都是要往這個方向來前進只是說怎麼做"},{"start":149.132,"end":159.653,"text":"這個做法是要一起來好好的討論所以我再次強調說我們希望可以來爭取更多的公聽會再來最後還有一件事情是"},{"start":161.308,"end":182.643,"text":"我想如果我們今天我們在野黨的委員喔真的很在乎生育率因為今天整整天我聽到了蠻多質詢都是一直在講少子化少子化生育率齁國家危機啊等等的那我們總預算是不是可以趕快來審一下裡面就有生育給付的差額啊不然我們基本上就只是空口說白話嘛齁嘴巴說我很在乎可是實質上我沒有作為啊齁"},{"start":183.664,"end":193.688,"text":"所以這邊還是要請藍白的立法委員實質的去審查這才是真正的去回應到國家整體面對到的問題那接下來就進入到我今天的質詢我的遙控器 好"},{"start":198.564,"end":223.383,"text":"我想這個我的版本我現在大概簡略的說了一下其實我想我的版本那個部長已經非常熟悉應該已經看過了那我想我今天來講一下為什麼我今天覺得這個現在的國民黨委員應該說在黨委員提出來這個台灣未來賬戶會有一些問題因為他其實是看起來好像是為孩子好但是呢我要講這還是對財政公平性跟實務上都存在很高的風險"},{"start":225.424,"end":254.022,"text":"這個不是理念上的問題而是國家負擔能不能負擔的問題因為我們現在草案規劃13年上限4500億的特別預算呢而且允許一用稅計剩餘於舉債我想這個今天主計好像已經主計在嗎主計在我想這待會也可以說一下這可不可行那但是我想要先問部長你知道說為什麼英國他們後來不選擇用這樣子的方向來做呢"},{"start":255.359,"end":262.187,"text":"也是因為他的財政沒有辦法支付這樣的龐大的預算壓力下所以他後來就停了"},{"start":263.551,"end":285.611,"text":"對我想我這邊也就做個清楚的說明一下這個兒童的信託基金開始它也是個普及式的一個補助但是後來也是因為財政壓力之下在2011年它全面的停止政府的撥補就轉為現在新的制度是用減稅的部分因為我想大家都非常清楚歐洲國家是稅非常非常高他們認為這樣子的方式才能夠真正的去鼓勵"},{"start":287.912,"end":304.842,"text":"所以我想在整個國際上面來比較的話目前的台灣不管你是新加坡 加拿大 美國或是英國來比我們是唯一一個採取普及發放 高額補助以及政府擔保收益的國家所以我今天早上才會說這個是一個大雜匯的法案"},{"start":306.543,"end":320.615,"text":"它好像看起來是把大家的版本都匯整在一起可是它就沒有考量到我們所謂的財政紀律的問題以及可不可以執行持續的執行下去因為像英國的這個版本就讓我們發現它是一個畫大餅可是長期來說吃不到"},{"start":322.356,"end":338.727,"text":"就變成是看得到吃不到所以看得到吃不到所以我覺得我們今天要做這件事情我們還是要回到到底哪個樣子的制度是可以持續的穩健的所以我想要請主計講一下就是可以簡單回應我一下就是說這樣子的可以一用稅計剩餘跟舉證這是可以的嗎"},{"start":341.001,"end":364.127,"text":"他法裡面規定可以用稅期剩餘是沒有錯但是我們現在已經沒有稅期剩餘了我們現在稅期剩餘是你然後114年度我們的稅科收入財政部今天也在場估計上次聽到的估計數是應該中央的部分都會少收大概四五百億所以114也沒有稅期剩餘"},{"start":365.97,"end":374.017,"text":"了解好那但是這個也沒有辦法持續的舉債嘛對吧我們是這個應該還是因為他是這邊可以他也可以允許舉債可是我們現在還有舉債的空間嗎"},{"start":375.93,"end":395.784,"text":"他這裡的裡面的舉債他是排除當年度15%但是這個期間這個期間還是要受到15%的限制沒錯但是我目前的E5的數字算出來他的空間還剩下1800億但是我們的軍購每年大概是1560億"},{"start":397.145,"end":415.079,"text":"扣掉這個軍購我們的額度大概剩下不到300億的空間但是我們每年的稅出在公共建設或是科技發展或是我們的一些依法律的支出每年大概要成早5%左右這個數字算出來大概1000多億所以基本上已經沒有容納這個空間以上報告"},{"start":417.281,"end":445.935,"text":"好所以其實我的版本當時才會用公務預算我們在一個財政可行的之下來去執行所以我覺得這是第一個問題點出來第一個問題那第二個問題呢其實是說我們強調不要擴大貧富差距我今天早上聽到在野黨的委員在講我們不要擴大貧富差距可是事實上現在這個版本就是在擴大財務的差距因為他允許每年自存上限10萬高所得家人年年都可以存啊而且他就是當幫富人減稅嘛"},{"start":447.236,"end":472.71,"text":"對吧因為我們現在真正弱勢的家庭是連基本生活都很吃力根本就不可能再多存了嘛可是你現在這個版本你也沒有針對弱勢來去做特別處理可是你針對高所得去幫他做減稅那國際的相關的研究都已經在講了在類似的制度之下排名前5%的高排名前5%高的家庭往往掌握將近30%的一個賬戶總存款所以我想問一下部長您針對今天這樣子的一個草案我們有沒有研究過"},{"start":473.47,"end":493.091,"text":"他會不會造成貧富差距越來越大 如果18年後富有家庭的帳戶是弱勢家庭的好幾倍這還叫做是公平的起跑線嗎所以剛剛在我們的書面報告才會去特別提到我們之前推動的這個兒少的未來教育及發展帳戶我們確實應該要去去檢討讓他能夠"},{"start":496.494,"end":515.774,"text":"照顧更多的弱勢家庭是要改變這個貧窮繼承的這一種階級複製但是如果是按照目前完全是普惠式的來講怕會造成逆補貼的情形這個是我們不樂見所以這個是我們在報告裡面會來努力"},{"start":516.514,"end":537.396,"text":"好那我想就是這樣講得非常的清楚就是說我們如果要講在公平的起跑險的話我們就應該要針對這件事情來實質的回應而不是說我們不好好的討論然後就這樣子去不開公聽會然後就讓這樣子的事情過去我覺得這樣是無助於社會的討論那再來就是說我想再請教一下部長就是"},{"start":538.72,"end":551.622,"text":"因為那個趙歐主席已經站起來了所以我就我看他前面都沒有站起來但是我部分他已經站起來了所以我想他可能是要真的嗎前面是講幾分鐘洪孟愷委員好謝謝你"},{"start":553.083,"end":568.581,"text":"好 那我想就是說我們現在的我想我今天是針對大家的版本提出建議啦那我想這個對大家如果真的是有心要來好好討論的話其實都可以再來納進來我也不是做任何的無所謂的謾罵"},{"start":570.043,"end":598.872,"text":"那我想就是說我們現在可能不是一個新儲蓄而是有錢人的資產轉移的工具喔因為許多的研究都指出這樣子的一個制度常出現擠出效應家庭只是把原本要存給孩子的錢換成一個更有利的賬戶再多拿政府的補助與稅賦的優惠所以如果這些錢本來會存到這麼多的話那政府為什麼要用公共預算來補貼呢這合理性您的看法是"},{"start":600.512,"end":624.439,"text":"對確實是如此就是國人的跟這些制度還得考慮到各國的本身的民情的差異性那以國人來講有兩個差異一個是複稅率是低的就是我們大概有近80%都是在5%的複稅以下了沒錯是那第二個是說"},{"start":627.382,"end":642.62,"text":"這個國人的儲蓄率本來就高的我們的儲蓄率本來就是高的國家所以是不是要透過這個工具再去鼓勵儲蓄全民儲蓄還是我們來把這個資源用在對弱勢者的照顧來強化"},{"start":643.761,"end":667.816,"text":"對 我想部長剛剛講得非常清楚就是說因為其實各國雖然英國 新加坡 美國很多國家都有但是我覺得各國的狀況還是要考量它的背景跟脈絡上面的一個差異不然我們只有實際看到別人的東西就趕快全部把它抄一抄之後全部組裝一起之後可能反而變成一個拼裝車無法上路 無法真正的執行所以我還是最後啦 懇請我們的主席召委"},{"start":668.496,"end":668.596,"text":"好 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感謝主席那我想部長已經在動身了就請部長"},{"start":18.174,"end":41.263,"text":"歐元好已經連續兩個小時了部長辛苦我想所有長官們都很辛苦不過針對今天趙委所安排的這個未來彰乎法案的這個答詢還是跟部長來討論一下那第二個部分就是有關於不定次專科的政策相關的部分也馬上部長還能夠廣納各方面的意見"},{"start":42.103,"end":61.325,"text":"那真的第一個主題就是少子女化對策真的必須要審慎規劃我相信大家都會認同少子女化的對策我們除了以現有的基礎之外必須要有更好的想法或者是做法希望能夠來改善這個少子女化目前帶來的困境"},{"start":61.966,"end":77.339,"text":"可是我們也真了解針對今天排審的這個國民黨團跟民眾黨團台灣未來賬戶特別條例的草案的第七條裡面就希望能夠要分13年那編列至少上限是4500億啟動資金1130億還有每年編列226億的這個條文"},{"start":84.945,"end":100.001,"text":"我們也想要請部長再次說明說這樣的話對於我們現在在編列或執行中的原本的這個少子女化對策計畫或者是其他醫療社福預算會發生什麼樣的排擠效應跟委員報告 當然這個"},{"start":101.743,"end":116.732,"text":"這個啟動資金這個一千多億這個規模其實是不小的那麼以我們現在的長照而言我們才超過一千億而已所以這個規模是不小一定會有排擠的效果出來"},{"start":117.552,"end":136.044,"text":"那麼以我們現行在推動的方向來講最主要是針對這個弱勢家庭的協助這些兒少弱勢家庭的兒少讓他能夠脫離這個繼承貧窮這樣的困境所以我們針對的是弱勢那至於說這個補貼的對象"},{"start":138.625,"end":165.073,"text":"幫忙的對象再擴大這個我們一定會來檢討那但是對於這種普惠是我們是以目前的這個設計上我們是比較擔憂一點了解所以其實針對兒少預算的這個文件擴張是大家都非常期待那剛剛在來委員也特別提到如果依照目前OECD國家平均是6個百分比來看的話事實上我們2024年所編列預算是5923億"},{"start":167.254,"end":192.194,"text":"佔了GDP是2.33%當然相較於期待的那個%是還不夠所以我們期待這方面能夠持續的來加強不過我們也可以再細看一下在這個5923億裡面的平均看起來各方面是有不一樣這個福利佔了19%健康照護佔了6%教育是佔了73%事實上是不少"},{"start":192.814,"end":217.043,"text":"那保護是1%所以錢要怎麼來怎麼花其實這是非常重要尤其您今天的書面報告裡面認為這個政策的關鍵在於資源怎麼用要先照顧誰剛剛部長也做了說明那其實我們在過去這七八年來對少子化對策部分中央總共編列了5931.18億元這個大家都很清楚"},{"start":217.583,"end":241.81,"text":"那針對於這個行政院將來是不是還會持續的針對少子女化對策計畫在做更穩健的增長這個其實我相信部長一定會說是而且是會努力的再往這邊來增長那對於現在的這個保證政策如果說因為我們有這些這樣的特別條例進來的話這個排擠會不會是也是您擔心的事情"},{"start":242.35,"end":261.173,"text":"對 因為這個資源永遠是有限沒有辦法無限的擴張所以我們必須做選擇哪一個是先後然後哪些是要優先那剛剛其實那個主計總署的長官也已經說明了我們現在那麼已經到位的預算"},{"start":261.533,"end":287.784,"text":"那還要再新增的時候我們都是要去衡量這個孰先孰後那麼誰先應該要先優先那麼急迫性的要來先處理好那再來這部分可能要麻煩我們教育部的許副署長如果有在現場的話就麻煩許副署長也來幫我們說明一下其實我們知道政府教育經費佔政府支出的比例很明顯的看得出來"},{"start":290.307,"end":309.986,"text":"我國是佔了22.5%就是說在整體的這個政府支出裡面教育金會佔了22.5%美國是佔了10.3%日本7.1%韓國是11.7%OECD國家平均是10%左右所以顯然美國這個高等教育的負擔還有醫療的負擔"},{"start":312.148,"end":330.182,"text":"我們比較起來我國其實這個佔比是高的那我們也了解他們會提出這個大而美這個法案是我們這次兩黨他們參考一個重要的這個對象之一那我們也理解其實美國的相關的一些"},{"start":333.385,"end":361.786,"text":"国内的问题跟我们所面对的问题是不太一样的所以如果我们要参考这个美国大而美的这个法案的话我们其实政府教育经费的比例已经占了相当高的比例那比较重要的是高等教育因为在美国来讲它可能在中小学以前的非高等教育所占的占比不会差太多可是我们看到的是高等教育美国就占了3.4%那台湾其实过去都已经占到将近7%"},{"start":362.987,"end":387.555,"text":"所以如果我們要參考這個大而美法案來做這個法案的推進的話事實上我們還是需要非常的謹慎那針對於這個政府教育監會教育的比例的部分可不可以請副處長再進一步說明比如說透過這樣的努力以後那這個助學貸款我其實是第一年有機會去申請到助學貸款的一個學生"},{"start":388.195,"end":405.568,"text":"那我畢業以後經過五年才把助學貸款能夠全部還完所以針對於這部分可不可以請署署長也進一步說明我們這個教育監會目前這幾年來在處理的部分針對這樣的狀況有哪一些具體的數字也可以讓民眾可以多了解"},{"start":408.863,"end":422.66,"text":"跟委員報告因為教育部的業務牽涉是非常非常多單位那今天主要來出席的是國教署那如果以就國教署的年度預算115年今年那我們的年度預算是到達1546億喔"},{"start":425.703,"end":440.578,"text":"那這裡面如果以委員剛剛所關心的對學生的協助那我們在高中的部分高中部分對高中的學費啦或是我們對弱勢的一些雜費的協助在高中大概就有111億"},{"start":442.64,"end":463.477,"text":"那大學的部分就目前掌握到的數據大學在協助學生的就學這些費用裡面那也高達114年度所編的預算也高達198億左右所以這是目前大概所掌握到對於學生就學這裡面應該也包含就學貸款"},{"start":463.897,"end":479.144,"text":"那委員所提及的相關更細緻的資料那會後我可以請在我們部裡面的相關單位跟署裡面相關單位再提供給委員參考因為這個提案的初衷是要改善少子女化我們的目標是要透過這樣的方式來改善少子女化來減輕這個家長育兒負擔"},{"start":481.505,"end":509.37,"text":"那草案第19條裡面也說明說要18歲以後才能夠提領所以是為了要因應高等教育過程所需要的一些經費那事實上家長在孩子0到12歲期間最迫切的育兒支出比如說托育 生養費用並沒有及時的注意所以法案本身如果說針對18歲以後才能提領的話那對於前面這部分沒有及時的處理到"},{"start":510.07,"end":525.78,"text":"對於高等教育的部分反而目前台灣已經做非常多相關的這個協助所以我們認為要謹慎的原因部分就是也要認同對於教育的投資的部分應該如何來處理因為18歲的支出是屬於教育跟創業的資產累積"},{"start":527.561,"end":542.555,"text":"所以年輕人不敢生是因為擔心小孩18歲沒有錢創業還是擔心奶粉錢生意會太貴這個我們先後順序就好像部長所提到資源要怎麼應用可能是非常重要那謝謝副署長請回座"},{"start":542.995,"end":558.157,"text":"那有關於這個支出的部分到底是要無差別的發放還是要能夠做一個好的方案目前發行的這個兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶裡面目前是政府跟家長是一比一的底波"},{"start":558.838,"end":585.244,"text":"然後對象是以低收入跟中低收入的家庭為對象我想階層的流動非常重要重點還是希望能夠讓這些相對低收入的這些家庭透過政府的協助能夠讓階層的流動變為可能所以強化似乎還是目前的這個施政重點那這部分部長認不認同在這個強化的過程裡面如果有其他的方案來進來的話我們如何能夠謹慎的來討論"},{"start":588.104,"end":612.293,"text":"當年在這個條例通過然後開辦的時候確實是如同委員所提到的是這樣的概念階級流動的概念沒有錯但是實施下來確實也發生一些瓶頸包含我們覆蓋率一直沒有辦法再突破那麼受惠的人數也是有限所以我們現在也在進行檢討看看如何來擴大"},{"start":613.473,"end":629.531,"text":"可以受惠的人數那麼這個挹注上能夠更多一點那麼程序上能夠更簡化一點等等這些我們都在檢討中我們希望來進行好 那就麻煩部長繼續努力那最後一個小問題其實也不一定是小問題"},{"start":630.768,"end":655.626,"text":"就是說在今年2025年的11月14號預告修正專科醫師分科跟精神辦法裡面增加了兩個專科一個是感染科一個是重症醫學科我想重要的背景是來自於COVID對於社會還有整體的造成的影響所以才能夠透過這兩個專科來讓我們整體的醫療能夠有更好的這個照護"},{"start":656.306,"end":678.698,"text":"那部長剛上任的時候也提到要建立不定的次專科的制度來精準的投入相關的資源那這部分不知道目前針對次專科的政策的進度可不可以利用這個時間讓我們多了解那這個過程裡面其實也希望能夠有更廣泛的來請各個專科醫學會來做相關的這些意見的參考"},{"start":679.298,"end":694.533,"text":"比如說像安寧緩和醫療大家都認為這是對未來的社會很重要的一個相關的次專科或者是專科那這部分部長有沒有一些想法或者是可以讓民眾理解的部分"},{"start":694.853,"end":709.233,"text":"好 跟委員說明確實我們在這個月底應該就會發布兩個新的次專科一個就是感染科一個是重症醫學那這兩個科當然就像委員提到的在這個疫後這個COVID之後"},{"start":710.875,"end":731.352,"text":"深深的感受到这个感控的重要性感染人才的培育这个是很重要所以我们把它列入再加上近年这个重症照护的人力的流失我们需要呢那么一方面是要来这个肯定投入重症科的医师那也希望掌握这个人力"},{"start":732.032,"end":759.355,"text":"那麼來做一些相對應的政策跟鼓勵的措施那後續還是會繼續的擴大討論這個過去也曾經開過幾次會議那麼當然在會議的討論過程當中有一些次專科已經有共識有一些次專科的共識度還有落差那我們會持續的來討論會有在下一階段那麼重點會先從在人力掌握度上"},{"start":759.835,"end":779.209,"text":"那麼我們需要有政策介入的那麼會納位考量的這個條件部長專科跟次專科還是不同所以我想這個部長應該可以掌握得更清楚好那就謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝委員好謝謝王振旭委員"}]}},{"id":"167092","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167092","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce05b95a66a86e03cca307671192a7c66aae007cc74e276eb87905b1f1929327f535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"14:29:56 - 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納進來為什麼 因為如果說你把他納進來就怕說你欠越多你的財力集資就越差你反而鼓勵到不還錢的人所以這個公式根本完全跟他的債務"},{"start":172.734,"end":191.614,"text":"多少 有還沒還 完全沒有關係那這一次我們計算出來原本台東在前一次的自有財源比例只有36%那事先是排名第20名那以前他算出來大多是這樣的結果那這一次算出來主要是因為財政法的修正"},{"start":193.225,"end":211.558,"text":"他的影響數大概是增加了137億元那這樣算出來他的增幅是220%那我們自由財源的比例計算出來就達到104那整個22個縣市他是排名第4名的那以往我們在計算這個自由財源的比例"},{"start":212.698,"end":227.124,"text":"變動的幅度都不會太大那有變動大概是會到三個縣市或四個縣市那縱使有變動它變動的差距大概就會升一級或是降一級那這次採訪法就是分配得非常不均"},{"start":229.666,"end":244.221,"text":"讓這個22個縣市算出來有15個縣市是變動的10個上升 5個下降那純粹就是根據財務法分配的結果算出來所以財務法是它的財力變動的因素"},{"start":245.101,"end":270.452,"text":"那財力分級的計算是依照那樣分配的結果算出來而已並不是我財力分級的比例去影響整個財力的結果是因為才要把修正導致整個財力集市的大幅變動 以上好 謝謝處長非常詳細的說明我想這中間有一些誤會所以最主要原因我們還是按照這個國民黨"},{"start":272.353,"end":293.873,"text":"推的這個財化法的版本去做詳細的計算所造成的結果那我想我們現在很清楚了齁這個台東財力級別大躍升從第五級爆衝喔跳到第一級喔最主要就是還是這個國民黨的財化法的版本的計算公式齁那"},{"start":294.895,"end":319.695,"text":"我想這個我們在當初這個強行推動就是說這個藍白的那個版本其實那個版本應該也沒有被好好的討論因為在台東的統籌分配稅款增加但是在計算公式不變的情況下才讓我們台東一下子跳到這麼多那畢竟台東過去"},{"start":320.996,"end":336.675,"text":"努力還債那這件事情其實也這幾年來其實都是這樣子的一個情況那按照過去幾年的這個舊版本的計算公式底下呢一直都維持在第五級我這樣解釋正確吧是好謝謝"},{"start":339.639,"end":367.014,"text":"那雖然是這個樣子啦但是我想國民黨的財化法版本對我們台東來講仍然是一個非常不公平的狀況現在我們台東這個不只綠營的人在罵藍營的支持者也很多在罵那黃建斌委員他也非常的對這個版本所計算出來的結果也相當的不滿意那我們台東呢現在突然跟台北並列第一"},{"start":367.794,"end":388.604,"text":"那意味著就是說未來中央在各項政策的補助款比例都將大幅減少甚至沒有補助那但是台東的這個基礎建設還有先天的條件和台北市的這個起保點是完全不一樣的即便我們增加近兩倍的這個統籌稅款但是"},{"start":389.404,"end":406.49,"text":"我們的人數也沒有那麼多那台北但是我們台北這個台北有綿密的這個大眾運輸的這個交通網那我們台東卻是地廣人稀那除了就是說只有公車那這個公車呢還久久一般而且還不準時有時候還過站不停"},{"start":407.33,"end":428.578,"text":"那在醫療量能上呢台北他有10個10個醫學中心我們台東只有一個這個區域級的這個醫院也就是台東馬捷那交通不便加上這個距離遙遠我們的台東縣民如果遇到這個緊急傷病要就醫的時候我們常常都是在跟死神搶時間"},{"start":431.035,"end":454.928,"text":"而且大家不要忘記了我們台東呢還是這個風災跟這個地震的搖滾區隨隨便便一個這個牆台或或者這個牆陣來到我們台東那整個救災重建就要燒掉很多的錢我再舉一個例子最基礎的這個民生建設就是水"},{"start":455.928,"end":480.229,"text":"台北市自來水普及率已經將近百分百了那台東縣的普及率只有85%那我們隨便要處理一條自來水沿管的費用動輒都是數千萬但是我們這個台東人被財力列為第一級之後這個項目可以獲得的補助經費是零"},{"start":482.111,"end":487.571,"text":"一毛錢自來水的部分一毛錢都拿不到所以"},{"start":490.135,"end":514.77,"text":"我再舉一個可能大家更容易理解的例子就是一個是住地保那一個是低收入戶但是現在政府說以後每年會多給這位低收入戶的人多兩倍的補助那從今天開始你可以說這個低收入戶的人跟這個住地保財力等級的人是一樣的嗎"},{"start":516.42,"end":539.191,"text":"所以 署長你不覺得這樣是很不合理的嗎依照我們補助辦法第9條的規定 財力集市計算出來就是要請各部會依照這個財力集市來去分級去做補助但是我們還是有一些單數的規定 比如零幣性的環保設施還有援助民族的重要建設"},{"start":539.491,"end":558.425,"text":"現在我跟你說啦我知道你會拿這一條來堵我的嘴巴啦但是我告訴你沒有自來水的地方不是只有原住民住而已啦非原住民也是有這個裝置自來水的需求啦所以我想在這個部分在未來來不及修法的這個情況下有沒有"},{"start":559.42,"end":572.996,"text":"任何的這個解套方式還是說怎麼樣 因為畢竟我覺得本席身為這個台東的女兒我要在這裡強烈要求行政院"},{"start":574.741,"end":599.434,"text":"能不能來專案處理這個台東我們即將面臨的這個困境我也希望說趁這個機會好好檢討這個財力分級制度的公式應該納入縣市既有的建設基礎建設的情形而不是只有單單用這個統籌稅款的多少去進行判斷也不是光只簡單看個面積人口這樣子而已"},{"start":602.276,"end":609.8,"text":"讓這個台東縣可以免用第一級財力的這個負擔比例不然我們未來台中的發展接下來是無法想像的慘"},{"start":612.04,"end":633.731,"text":"剛才還沒有報告完這裡面還有一個是說如果還有第三點是專案報行政院核准那這三個例外那我們了解說先前因為第一級只有台北市所以很多部會他在規定的時候是把第一級列為不予補助或是說他的補助"},{"start":634.651,"end":658.81,"text":"補助比例比較低那現在因為整個財力集市發生了很大的變動第一級的部分現在有有四個縣市還包括新竹縣市這樣子那我們會把這一個規定那我們會請會請各部位來來注意因為現在這個財力分級第一級不只不只只有一個好像有四個"},{"start":660.191,"end":672.014,"text":"那另外我們還有一些比較例外的規定然後我們會請各部會去看他的計畫的性質再去修正他的補助作業要點以上"},{"start":672.722,"end":698.532,"text":"好那所以如果是這樣子的話那就是就變成說本期希望就是說同時我們各部會好然後所有地方政府必須自籌的這個政策跟計劃我們列出來好那也請各部會就是各項重大建設盡可能我們就都來提報提報院然後希望能夠核准我們大概就是能夠"},{"start":701.007,"end":709.576,"text":"走這條路後面行政院的這個版本如果不排入討論的話"},{"start":711.536,"end":738.337,"text":"那我們變成就是要用這樣的方式那就是說我想就是說盡量我們不要讓這個台東縣免用這個第一級財力負擔的比例因為這個確實對我們造成很大的影響我再請這個我們在行政院的部分要好好的去考量委員的意見我們會納入參考好 謝謝"},{"start":741.537,"end":741.762,"text":"好 謝謝陳英偉"}]}},{"id":"167088","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167088","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce07143a189894f29dd307671192a7c66aae007cc74e276eb87e3ceebef6e54c8ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:46:26 - 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剛剛我想趙偉已經透過他的簡報很完整的分析跟討論就是說我們今天討論這個未來帳戶的一個部分那本席也跟大家都一樣其實我們很關注這個出生率的問題少子女化的問題但我想先釐清一下到底現在此時此刻我們衛福部具體認為說台灣現在少子女化的原因到底是什麼"},{"start":41.465,"end":69.217,"text":"剛剛也跟委員報告我們過去這幾年的努力主要是在支持有婚育的家庭育兒的壓力把它下降所以我們從生育的補助部長你還是沒有聽清楚我的問題你先聽完我的問題因為我覺得這個問題才是最重要的也是今天所有人的報告裡面沒有秀出來的到底我們少子女化大家不生孩子的原因是什麼"},{"start":70.878,"end":85.56,"text":"應該是說我們統計的分析從25歲到44歲就是屬於適合生育的年齡的婦女來看如果有婚姻關係或者曾經有婚姻關係當然生育率是維持住了"},{"start":86.441,"end":111.946,"text":"並沒有特別下降但是在沒有婚姻的在這一段年齡沒有婚姻的他的生育率是很低都是低於1%那從這幾年看起來這個不婚的比例正在持續的上升從1990年的時候這一個年齡層的這個未婚的大概是21%到去年來到新高是52%所以這個部分就很低"},{"start":112.506,"end":138.417,"text":"所以我們這一段年齡的婦女等於是這個拉低了整個生育率統計上就拉低很多人講嘛就是個人的生活價值觀譬如說他晚婚或是不婚的一個改變而造成說他沒有結婚或者是認為是說婚姻跟家庭的觀念改變就是以前認為說一定要結婚但是現在就覺得不一定男生也好女生也好可能都沒有這樣的想法"},{"start":138.997,"end":164.04,"text":"那撇開這兩個因為這兩個面向可能要跟內政部一起合作可能要一起努力變成是說政府要如果說我們認為這真的很重要也認為是說這個是能夠救台灣生育率我們甚至要成立我們甚至要支持鼓勵大家真有互相聯誼但過去其實我們不管是地方政府民政體系也都有做這樣的部分嘛可是本席再拉回來講如果說已經生完已經結婚了"},{"start":164.6,"end":183.645,"text":"他到底不生孩子有很多是父母他結婚但是沒有生孩子的主要理由我們看起來還是最主要是這個育兒的這個成本經濟的經濟經濟的跟機會成本就是未來他教養的部分認為說他孩子能不能不要說"},{"start":185.286,"end":207.813,"text":"這個跟他自己受一樣的苦他可以有更好的一個求學更好的生活更好的環境是不是對啊另外就是機會成本因為他在養育的過程當中可能會喪失的比如說他的升遷機會那麼這個就就業的機會等等這一些這個就是所謂的機會成本所以我們在這一段這個政策裡面還有一段就是需要"},{"start":208.693,"end":231.707,"text":"創造那個友善的職場比方說它更有彈性的運營留停制度更有彈性的上班這些我們有沒有在做我們都有在做嘛對 在我們現在的這個2.0今年開始就是特別把勞動部還有內政部這些都會一起進來要努力創造友善的就業環境"},{"start":233.328,"end":249.329,"text":"你剛提到兩個部分一個是經濟養育額的一個經濟成本一個是機會成本他可能會有他的一個升遷管道那我們現在其實都在做本期為什麼還是要開宗明義問這個問題因為我想要的是如同醫生在看診"},{"start":250.751,"end":265.913,"text":"對症下藥就是我們一定很多的委員在那邊鬼扯然後講明明說未來帳戶是對於全民以及希望能夠解決梢子化問題解決經濟的負擔的相關部分或是給他低桶金但是"},{"start":266.314,"end":286.807,"text":"要故意鬼扯說是什麼跟這個未成年這個低收入戶的這個兒童跟少年未來的教育發展帳戶一樣其實我覺得這個概念是完全不同的因為我們現在在推的兒童跟少年未來教育及發展帳戶是要幫助低收中低收的孩子但他要解決的比較是他們在生活成長過程"},{"start":288.294,"end":312.059,"text":"而現在講的是整體全台灣的出生率本席不會苛責因為這是要共同面對但是你花了過去這幾年107年到114年花了5900多億是事實我不會講說這5900多億就是浪費了我不會這樣講但是我相信部長你也應該可以理解跟承認如果沒花這5900多億狀況會比現在更慘吧"},{"start":315.001,"end":323.591,"text":"是 所以但是我們現在重點在哪裡重點是我們已經花了五千九百多億了可是我們的結果是最後一名"},{"start":325.377,"end":348.222,"text":"這都是事實我們是最後一名花了5900多億我們還是最後一名可是我不會說不能花這5900多億因為如果說沒有花的話可能我們最後一名還要更墊底對不對好可是現在的問題就在於我們已經花了5900多億了還是拿到最後一名那代表過去有做這些事情有沒有成效有成效但是不大"},{"start":349.102,"end":376.165,"text":"那我們現在面臨的問題除了之前的5900多億還是要持續推動該補貼的要補貼政府之前一直講0到6歲國家養可以持續做但是除了這以外如果我們沒有新的思維或是新的政策工具的話我們沒有辦法翻身我們還是一樣最後一名我們不會今天突然間大家過兩個月過三個月之後遇到Mr.Right然後就結婚了"},{"start":377.096,"end":403.676,"text":"不會轉角遇到愛嘛現實生活沒有那麼的那個而且更重要的是愛情是一回事但是你說要養育孩童等等他就變成是很理性的思考所以今天才會變成是說不管是在野黨提出來黨團提出來或者是有執政黨的委員他也提出類似的概念的時候那我們要思考說這對於您剛剛提到的經濟跟機會成本有沒有幫助"},{"start":404.116,"end":417.956,"text":"或是有沒有讓這一些年輕的爸爸媽媽覺得說這一件事情是有幫到他的讓他在思考未來下一代生育的時候他可以更想的是說那我們能不能來生小孩我覺得這才是關鍵"},{"start":419.943,"end":440.714,"text":"因為它是一個大規模的政策的部分而對政下要很重要部長您剛也提到了經濟一定是一個面向所以怎麼樣讓父母都覺得是說政府有幫我經濟上有支持經濟上有支持分兩種一種是政府直接補貼經費但我們過去沒在做 有在做嘛"},{"start":441.334,"end":467.69,"text":"但是也不能無底洞啊對不對一定會馬上就講是說我們政府財政有限所以說我不能無底洞如果說真的我們今天可以挖到石油一戶五萬塊十萬塊二十萬都發但重點是沒有嘛那我們就要思考另外一個方向是說我們今天用一個未來帳戶政府出一點民間自己也出一點然後幫小朋友存錢並且透過基金的管理讓這個存的錢是有"},{"start":468.61,"end":486.212,"text":"合理的收益 當他18歲的時候他可以拿到第一桶金 而這第一桶金是可以幫他不管是還學貸 不管是創業 不管是做人生的規劃 出國留學讓他有一個基本的經濟能力我覺得這不會是壞事"},{"start":488.208,"end":507.035,"text":"所以本席現在講完只是想是說我很懇求跟拜託為什麼今天一定要留下來質詢就是因為我認為這個東西方向對的話不要考慮說一定是在野黨提出我就是完全就是反對執政黨提出執政黨也有委員提出我們共同可以討論不足的地方大家來修正"},{"start":508.106,"end":523.131,"text":"不足的地方或說有思考不周延不嚴謹的地方大家來你給意見我們大家來修正但是這個方向如果是對的可以對症下藥解決現在青年朋友的心理的困擾的時候該支持該推動要推動部長"},{"start":527.202,"end":551.437,"text":"我們會來做很審慎的評論因為本席真的還是希望症狀在哪裡就是您應該是醫生相關背景嘛到底病因是什麼先找出原因我們才能投藥還是要對症下藥那如果說我做去已經投了5900多億的藥我不會講沒有效我還是再次強調因為如果沒有花這5900多億我看可能現在會更差"},{"start":552.418,"end":578.633,"text":"但是投了五千九百多億的藥之後我們還到結果是最後一名那就代表我們這個藥除了該必要性的做持續做以外該換藥了該引進新的療程新的方式來燉剩下藥才能夠真的我們一起努力讓台灣能夠解決至少往少子化往上就是出生率往上的方向邁進好嗎好我們來檢討謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167091","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167091","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce08f1d8a4bd10dbb24307671192a7c66aae007cc74e276eb87d45d1968440bc2ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"14:20:47 - 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謝謝主席那一樣請石部長請石部長好 杜葛元好部長在1月7號那時候在答詢的時候當然那個時候部長說我們針對少子女化對策訂定這個計畫那時候經費編列是4484億那當然後來你當天晚上好像有發影片澄清說"},{"start":33.248,"end":48.688,"text":"而針對少子女化對策計畫總共是編列了5931億所以這5931億是正確的數字就是年度的落差4000多億是沒有算到114年如果把114年都算進來的話是5931億"},{"start":51.18,"end":69.887,"text":"所以後來算到這8年來總共是5931億所以針對我們2024年我們看統計資料顯示我們台灣人口的成長率2024年那時候世界排名是191名也就是全世界倒數46名"},{"start":71.167,"end":85.8,"text":"那出生率是世界排名220名也是倒數第9名 只有7.3%那我們也知道其實現在全世界各國都在努力提高自己國家的生育率"},{"start":86.32,"end":105.788,"text":"那像韓國其實這幾年他們也在處理那我們也了解以後韓國在2025年他針對這生育率確實就已經有在提升了所以台灣目前少子化我們也知道是很嚴重的國安危機所以我們才成立這少子女化辦公室可是後來我們發現2025"},{"start":108.989,"end":121.296,"text":"幾乎每個月都比2024每個月幾乎都少差不多2000人所以我們在2024年出生人口數還有13萬4千多人可是到2025年就剩10萬7千人"},{"start":125.178,"end":144.07,"text":"這一年來就出生就少了兩萬六千人所以看起來台灣少子化這嚴重的國安危機那不知道部長有沒有瞭解我們年輕人為什麼對結婚生子這個意願為什麼這個到底是什麼問題讓他們不願意去結婚生子"},{"start":144.73,"end":159.162,"text":"我想這個原因非常多啦這個很多元那不外乎有一些是這個剛剛提到的經濟的考量那或者是職業發展機會成本的問題等等這個因素倒是真的是不少"},{"start":160.083,"end":186.283,"text":"所以我们有看过卫福部在2024年6月的统计针对这也去做过数据每100人中大概有60个人都认为是经济负担太重也就是他们认为说从怀孕到生小孩再把小孩养大成人这个费用非常高而且现在物价逐年攀升对于我们现在年轻人他都认为"},{"start":187.123,"end":204.907,"text":"為了自己為了小孩他要去負這個責任要負擔的費用真的很大而且養小孩真的這個費用對他們來講是非常龐大所以對於結婚生小孩他們都非常恐懼那我們也可以知道就像剛剛講我們2018年到2025年總共編列了5931億那這些錢都用在津貼用在補助"},{"start":213.149,"end":223.429,"text":"可是看起來他們還是認為經濟負擔太重還是他們最主要的目標那看來我們補助那麼多錢好像也看不到什麼成效應該是說"},{"start":225.132,"end":253.099,"text":"可能還不夠也不一定力度要再加強也不一定另外他不是只有育兒的負擔還有他的生活的負擔還有在工作職業上的發展機會成本的問題這些也都要一併考慮所以我們現在的這個2.0的這個少子女對策行動方案領導也會一直在努力的是讓那個友善的育兒職場那個部分也必須要改善"},{"start":253.639,"end":270.095,"text":"包含這個居住的這個住宅的政策等等這些的都要一併一併納進來我們過去是主要比較重的是放在這個0到6歲這一段的育兒的這個成本這個經濟的補貼上"},{"start":272.397,"end":300.656,"text":"所以所以我說我們可以看到現在世代的年輕人啊當然因為他們現在賺錢也很不好也很辛苦也不好賺錢那所以他們要為了要照顧自己然後如果要結婚要生小孩對他們來講是一個非常沉重的負擔所以當然這一部分我們當然政府目前現在面對面臨少子化危機這嚴重的國安危機我們當然要想辦法去處理所以我們當然除了津貼補助"},{"start":302.097,"end":325.086,"text":"方面之外我們當然就希望能夠從更多的方面來鼓勵年輕人結婚生小孩那目前我們看得到我們是針對零歲到六歲的部分去照顧他們所以我們才想說是不是在六歲之後的育兒方面我們是不是應該要來重視應該要研認一套方式"},{"start":325.586,"end":353.667,"text":"怎麼樣陪伴我們這年輕的家庭怎樣子幫他把這小孩子一樣撫養長大好減輕他們的負擔在我們這個115年的這個少子女對策計畫裡面確實有強化0到6歲的新手父母的這個協助有這一塊那另外一塊就是在入學的進入到這個教育階段入學之後小學開始之後"},{"start":354.147,"end":373.128,"text":"那麼在這個教育的部分的補助有沒有要再 現在也有教育的補助只是教育的補助要不要也再增加一些 這個都在討論當中不過這個也涉及到那個預算 因為這個是新增的預算所以目前還是沒有辦法執行這樣"},{"start":374.289,"end":392.96,"text":"所以這部分我說這個嚴重國安危機當然行政院當然還有我們衛福部甚至就像剛剛部長講的教育這方面所以教育部這方面也要大力的幫忙來一起共同來研育來解決這個問題其實像衛福部我們之前針對中低"},{"start":393.8,"end":418.744,"text":"收入户提供兒童及少年未來發展教育這一方面我們覺得這一部分就做得很好的示範所以我們在想說才會提出說是不是未來賬戶所運用投資理財的概念就像我們ETF一樣政府每年也撥錢來撫養0到12歲的存款讓政府代為投資的情形"},{"start":419.264,"end":447.839,"text":"去累積他們的資產一方面也可以減輕兒童及少年將來他在各方面所要面臨的壓力所以當然我們是希望多元化的來解決這個問題所以也希望是不是部長我們也是不是也可以提出一些版本大家共同來研議那未來賬戶也只是說我們提供的一個方式最主要我們還是要解決這個少子女化的一個問題"},{"start":449.579,"end":476.154,"text":"确实这个需要多元的政策才有办法来因应这样的低生育率的问题但是毕竟这个资源是有限所以我们会再来仔细的研析那么哪一些应该要先走资源要先放哪一些也许我们有更大的空间的时候再来推动对啊 就像石部长刚刚也有讲你说或许"},{"start":476.914,"end":494.646,"text":"其實今天補助5900多億感覺其實還是不夠 對啊因為我們自己在地方基層跑我們可以知道現在的經濟真的不景氣年輕人賺錢真的很不容易那他對於自己的生活都沒有辦法照顧得好"},{"start":495.126,"end":511.799,"text":"那如何讓他去結婚如何去生子養小孩這對他們來講真的是一個非常沉重的壓力所以我們也希望我們先提這個未來帳戶也是一個希望能夠解決少子女化的危機提高他們"},{"start":512.419,"end":533.055,"text":"生育子女来努力所以也希望我们卫福部也能够提出一些版本我们大家共同来讨论最主要希望不要让这个少子女化真的变成我们的国安危机好 我们会来提出我们的建议那也请我们卫福部大家一起来努力好 谢谢谢谢图全级委员"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}