{"total":{"value":11,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2026-01-15"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"17203","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17203","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b73ade72829c64ed6e13f430e0f158c2ab7c9c2b42d95aa10a219bd209750d2d1d56ab4ddcf432ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-15T14:40:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：(一)本院國民黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：「依『中華民國憲法增修條文』第四條及『立法院職權行使法』第十五條之一規定，邀請賴清德總統赴立法院就攸關國家安全之重大國安事項及天價軍購提出國情報告，並接受委員諮詢，以釋群疑，落實憲法賦予國會的監督權。」是否有當？請公決案。(二)本院台灣民眾黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：「本院於審議『強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例暨特別預算案』前，應請賴清德總統履行2023年12月30日於總統候選人電視辯論會所作之承諾：『總統都有義務應立法院的要求到國會進行國情報告，接受立法委員的國情諮詢』，至立法院就國家安全、兩岸情勢、對美軍購與國防預算規劃進行國情報告，並接受立法委員之諮詢。」是否有當？請公決案。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-15T14:16:01+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-15T15:02:00+08:00","duration":2759,"影片長度":"00:45:59","委員發言時間":"14:16:01 - 15:02:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2026011259","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":2.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.30909375,"end":4.199093749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.062843750000003,"end":21.141593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.01909375,"end":46.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.51284375,"end":48.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.96846875,"end":55.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.73096875,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.94346875000001,"end":75.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.10346875,"end":96.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.64034375,"end":98.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.15034375,"end":101.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.70284375,"end":104.45346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.24659375,"end":113.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.52784375,"end":115.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.06346875000001,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.19784375,"end":124.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.43346875,"end":126.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.55534375,"end":129.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.47471875000002,"end":131.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.33096875,"end":148.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.93596875,"end":153.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.69034375,"end":155.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.12034375000002,"end":183.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.98534375,"end":195.39284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.89909375000002,"end":196.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.31659375,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.67471875,"end":203.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.01596875,"end":206.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.18846875000003,"end":229.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.06221875000003,"end":237.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.08659375000002,"end":414.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.64971875000003,"end":503.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.34034375000005,"end":520.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.3840937500001,"end":577.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.5947187500001,"end":665.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.7665937500001,"end":684.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.6159687500001,"end":729.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":731.4778437500001,"end":735.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":736.43909375,"end":743.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":744.4209687500002,"end":746.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":747.0534687500001,"end":754.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":755.32221875,"end":758.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":758.41034375,"end":766.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":767.26971875,"end":768.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":768.95721875,"end":789.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.22596875,"end":778.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.61784375,"end":781.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":790.20284375,"end":797.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":797.74596875,"end":805.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":805.9809687500001,"end":821.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":824.50971875,"end":825.7078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":825.74159375,"end":825.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":827.56409375,"end":834.9553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":833.75721875,"end":834.21284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.531,"end":19.722,"text":"本來想請羅委員主持不過羅委員很客氣說他是先由我代為主持先跟大家做一下說明原例我們先請由提案的黨團說明是不是就先請中國國民黨黨團的代表羅志強羅委員來請"},{"start":22.059,"end":46.548,"text":"好 那國民黨其實一直堅持就是賴清德總統針對特別是有關於軍購的問題那預算這麼的高昂那應該要來跟國人說明並被質詢那當然這個部分其實我們各黨討論也很久了那如果沒有共識的話我的建議就是送院會處理 以上"},{"start":49.084,"end":75.146,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強委員接下來是不是請台灣民眾黨黨團的代表是要由張祺凱張委員高達1.25兆的這個特別條例從數量上去看就非常的大它會嚴重排擠到很多的社會福利跟基礎建設可是全世界現在大概只有賴清德 賴總統知道這個真相因為在他投書美國的一個媒體之前"},{"start":76.209,"end":98.365,"text":"我們問了行政院的院長周永泰連周院長都不曉得有這筆錢所以有必要請賴總統到立法院來說清楚講明白為什麼只有他知道而且不是向立法院或向全民說明而是去投書了國外的媒體另外第二個更勁爆的這1.25兆昨天晚上國防部竟然說裡面有3000億是要對內採購"},{"start":105.487,"end":123.418,"text":"這跟我們完全推翻了之前大家的這個理解了大家以為這1.25兆全部都是對美國啊結果黃國昌黃主席你們去了美國說現在明確的只有3000億左右的是對美採購現在又跑出來國防部說不對喔 有3000億是對內的喔那請問還有6000億到底在哪裡啊請問那6000億是要跟美國買嗎這段時間以後"},{"start":133.029,"end":152.838,"text":"會聲會影說包括有些金口商都要來台灣了請問這六千億真的有花在刀口上每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢真的有買到合適的武器嗎更嚴重的這種黑箱作業為什麼不能開大門走大路清楚地跟全民講到底我們需要的是怎麼樣武器買到的真的是合適民眾的嗎好 那"},{"start":157.285,"end":182.088,"text":"賴清德總統事實上在2023年的12月31號總統候選人電視辯論會上就做了承諾他說總統有義務應立法院的要求到國會進行國情報告接受立法委員的國情諮詢到立法院就國家安全兩岸情勢對美採購跟國防預算規劃進行國情諮問並且接受立法委員的諮詢"},{"start":185.283,"end":202.558,"text":"賴總統自己的承諾請兌現不要變成空頭支票而且我要做一個重要的澄清民進黨現在找到一個很奇怪的講法他說依法規定不能夠急問急答事實上早就沒有急問急答這個了"},{"start":204.042,"end":228.938,"text":"我們當初在修法的時候不是明確把它改成依序回答嗎而且後來經過三黨的這個朝野協商國民黨跟民進黨都提出我們可以用統問統答所以請不要再造謠沒有沒有急問急答這個事情我們用的是統問統答就跟當年李登輝總統去國民大會的狀況是一樣你說五個人問完之後做一個統問統答 謝謝"},{"start":233.337,"end":259.74,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝張祺凱委員那接下來我們請民進黨的陳佩瑜委員好 那我想我們真的希望這是一個平和討論的協商會場那之前我們民進黨的委員說張祺凱委員一開口就造謠果然到今天你真的還是沒有讓我失望我想要就你剛剛談的國防的例子我再一一的回覆張祺凱委員可能新聞太多 事情太多委員您來不及看清楚"},{"start":260.287,"end":279.624,"text":"第一個 去年12月17號美國公布史上對台最大軍售案3500億跟我們現在正在談的強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例就是一直被你們卡在程序委員會連掛號都掛不進來的1.25兆分8年"},{"start":283.647,"end":298.188,"text":"這是兩件事情所以你剛剛講了3500億這個事情我要提醒張委員這是兩件事情這中間只有部分重疊第二個國防特別條例的相關條文寫得很清楚"},{"start":298.849,"end":318.439,"text":"一直以來 國防部也好 行政院也好所有的 包含我們在國防外招的民進黨委員也都說了不是只有跟美國買武器賴總統自己也有公開說包含維修 包含訓練 包含支援系統還有培植台灣的本土國防產"},{"start":319.62,"end":323.642,"text":"之前在外交國防委員會也非常多國民黨的委員就這個議題跟國防部討論想要確保我們台灣有沒有能力有沒有量能相關的這些經驗可不可以真的如實的扶植國內產業其實國防部也都做了說明在條例裡面也都寫得很清楚不知道是不是因為被卡在程序委員會所以其他委員還來不及看或者是沒有空看那我就跟您報告"},{"start":346.899,"end":375.158,"text":"1.25兆分8年这件事情再次强调不是只有跟美国买武器我刚所说的那件事情请齐凯委员一并考虑再来国防特别条例当中国内产制3000余亿元其他是对外采购所以黄国昌委员您之前也说过你说对美军购只需3000亿这也是一个错假的讯息我不说您造谣但我必须要再次澄清这是一个错假的讯息接下来"},{"start":375.658,"end":390.672,"text":"特別條例本來就需要立法院先審過再從程序委員會進到國防外交委員會逐一討論我們才能夠編列預算編列預算後然後再次送進立法院審查在過程當中"},{"start":391.653,"end":413.307,"text":"拜託委員們記得所有的委員都有權利針對相關條例的內容實質的跟國防部討論跟相關的主管機關討論你們認為應該要怎麼改你們認為預算要怎麼調整這些都是可以討論的請各位委員不要忘記了之前是為了丹納斯也好為了光復的"},{"start":415.048,"end":418.97,"text":"災情大家都坐在這裡針對條例的內容實質討論旗開委員你記得嗎你幫嘉義爭取了很多預算你說都是你爭取的我們先不管你說是不是真的但是我要提醒委員們條例的內容是可以進到委員會討論實質內容針對預算針對內容最後"},{"start":434.477,"end":453.827,"text":"AIT昨天也引用了相關的發文再次強調他們被這件事情深陷其中他們希望台灣可以支持1.25兆國防特別預算這件事情希望可以強化台灣面對防禦跟嚇阻的能力以上針對國防的事情我想就理論理我還是要回覆一下張祺凱委員"},{"start":455.288,"end":483.722,"text":"第二個關於賴總統到立法院來做國情報告這件事情也要拜託張祺凱委員看一下憲法法院113的憲判9號已經宣告而且宣告條文講得非常清楚一他說立法院執權行使法第15條第一項也就是在你們的提案說明你們確實自己也引用了第15條第一項立法院可以邀請沒有問題這個部分憲法法院說合憲"},{"start":484.582,"end":502.339,"text":"所以你們確實自己引用這個條文但是立法院職權行使法第15條裡面第二項跟第三項總統來做國情報告的義務所謂義務這件事情是違憲的這個是憲法法庭所說的那理由是什麼呢來我來跟齊凱文報告"},{"start":504.383,"end":520.13,"text":"一 他說上開憲法規定僅系容許立法院可以被動聽取總統的國情報告的權利並不是說總統因此有向立法院提出國情報告的憲法義務"},{"start":521.471,"end":539.104,"text":"意思就是說我們可以聽我們也可以邀請但總統有沒有一定要來這件事情總統並不是直接對立法院負責總統受人民的直接投票總統受人民的監督站在台灣五權分立不管你要不要接受"},{"start":539.924,"end":555.13,"text":"台灣現行五權分立的情況下總統不需對立法院直接負責他是受到人民直接監督憲法法院的判決所說的第二個 再跟齊凱文報告立法院一樣是憲判說的立法院義無聽取總統國情"},{"start":558.011,"end":563.375,"text":"報告之憲法義務意思就是說如果總統真的要來了也走進來了委員你也可以不用聽如果你覺得他要講的內容他想要表現的形態他想討論的主題不是你想聽的憲法判決也說我們立法院的委員可以不用聽"},{"start":577.643,"end":597.25,"text":"大家是對的 第三個總統要不要來 什麼時候來用什麼樣的方法在立法院讓立法院得聽取國情報告及其國情報告的主題跟涵蓋範圍 憲法也沒有明白的規範總統自得本於其職權而為審酌的決定"},{"start":600.211,"end":602.214,"text":"意思就是說這個形態這個內容這個時間相關的主題涵蓋範圍不是我們立法院說了算而是總統可以自行決定所以剛剛在兩位在野黨委員的說明當中不管你們要什麼統問統答一問一答"},{"start":617.654,"end":634.587,"text":"我再次強調這些方式跟主題都不是我們立法院可以決定的憲法已經說得非常清楚了第四點基於憲法機關相互尊重原則與立法院協商後實施尚非立法院得片面決定者"},{"start":635.387,"end":654.062,"text":"就是我剛剛說的那句話不是我們立法院說了算不論你今天是朝野哪一個黨派不是你說了叫賴清德來說什麼做什麼報告什麼用什麼方法回答立法委員不是我們說了算這是總統可以自行決定的"},{"start":654.602,"end":683.621,"text":"最後 憲判又說了總統既不對立法院負責則立法院對總統的國情報告自無指定報告內容之權翻譯成白話文就是我們立法院沒有權利決定賴總統來做國情報告的內容是什麼樣子我們也沒有辦法就他的報告內容對總統為進一步詢問並要求總統答覆或要求總統聽取其建言之權"},{"start":684.862,"end":701.673,"text":"講得非常清楚意思就是說之前我們已經屢次的提醒在野黨黨團相關你們現在所提出來的說法都是一個違憲而且這個違憲是憲判的判例已經說得非常清楚了所以簡單的做結論就是要不要邀請"},{"start":702.353,"end":727.781,"text":"是我們立法院的權利沒有錯但是總統沒有義務出席要不要來如何報告如何答覆這些事情都是總統府總統決定立法院要尊重總統的決定再說一次總統不是對立法院直接負責總統受人民直接投票選舉而出總統權利來自人民受人民監督以上所以我想所有的相關提案我們民進黨團不予贊成"},{"start":732.36,"end":754.361,"text":"三個黨團的代表都已經發言了不過我在主持會議的時候我基本上就是希望我就主持會議就好我自己不要參雜太多的立場但是當你拿著麥克風說我在講錯假訊息的時候我就必須要糾正自己回去看清楚"},{"start":755.39,"end":778.718,"text":"我講的話直播上面清清楚楚我把錯假訊息四個字送還給陳佩玉委員你今天坐在這邊所在講的才是錯假訊息才是錯假訊息你沒有辦法面對現在拿了包包要落荒而逃我也尊重你四個錯假訊息這四個字我沒有落荒我丟還去給你我沒有落荒而逃"},{"start":782.779,"end":804.382,"text":"民主進步黨黨團的立法委員的素質展現在全國人民的面前展現在全國人民的面前好 那我們今天的協商沒有沒有沒有 他們已經離席了沒有啦 奇怪 抱歉我組織會議我一定按照規則他們已經離席了這個協商沒有辦法進行下去好 我們這個協商"},{"start":806.598,"end":820.526,"text":"你等我會議宣告完你要罵你繼續罵我們的寫商沒有辦法達成共識我們接下來就按照立法院自選刑事法相關的規定來進行處理好 今天的寫商到此結束謝謝大家 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17202","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17202","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6856e13f430e0f158c2b62f6da9541a768c0a219bd209750d2d97ef7ec9515e9b185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-15T14:20:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「醫療法第十二條、第一百零二條及第一百零二條之一條文修正草案」，請審議案。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-15T14:13:06+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-15T14:45:00+08:00","duration":1914,"影片長度":"00:31:54","委員發言時間":"14:13:06 - 14:45:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2026011255","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":420.79221875,"end":431.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.67221875,"end":443.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.04159375,"end":448.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.63596875,"end":460.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":461.07284375,"end":471.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":471.82221875000005,"end":475.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":476.36159375000005,"end":477.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":477.39096875,"end":480.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":481.15409375,"end":492.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.64159375,"end":498.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.44659375000003,"end":511.27596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.64721875000004,"end":511.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.40659375,"end":531.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.40784375,"end":534.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.93471875,"end":557.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.59784375,"end":558.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.67784375,"end":597.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.3215937500001,"end":600.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.76409375,"end":618.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.9890937499999,"end":634.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.90221875,"end":643.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.8628437500001,"end":657.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.6328437500001,"end":660.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.2990937500001,"end":673.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.59221875,"end":681.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.34221875,"end":690.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.02846875,"end":700.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.90034375,"end":701.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.40221875,"end":706.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.92471875,"end":719.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.81284375,"end":725.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.5715937500001,"end":727.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.55846875,"end":746.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":747.52596875,"end":752.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":754.03971875,"end":757.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":758.6297187499999,"end":770.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.01596875,"end":775.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.4878437500001,"end":784.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.3303437500001,"end":790.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.3715937500001,"end":806.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":806.8584687500002,"end":833.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":834.88784375,"end":854.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":854.42909375,"end":864.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":865.1784687500001,"end":871.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":872.0634687500001,"end":882.6103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":882.9140937500001,"end":885.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":885.63096875,"end":893.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":893.98409375,"end":899.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":899.46846875,"end":901.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":901.51034375,"end":914.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":914.6728437500001,"end":929.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":930.0122187500001,"end":943.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":943.7822187500001,"end":959.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":961.7709687500001,"end":968.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":968.4365937500002,"end":985.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":986.59409375,"end":996.2803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":996.46596875,"end":1002.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1003.8234687500001,"end":1008.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1009.13909375,"end":1044.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1044.47534375,"end":1046.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1046.98971875,"end":1051.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1051.8665937500002,"end":1110.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1111.5703437500001,"end":1168.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1168.9790937500002,"end":1175.7459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1175.9822187500001,"end":1183.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1183.96409375,"end":1201.1934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1201.8515937500001,"end":1250.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1250.4009687500002,"end":1274.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1275.81471875,"end":1289.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1289.31471875,"end":1330.5740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1331.7890937500001,"end":1345.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1344.58034375,"end":1442.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1442.7928437500002,"end":1456.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1456.7315937500002,"end":1462.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1462.6209687500002,"end":1509.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1509.4490937500002,"end":1523.4890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1523.57346875,"end":1553.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1554.1172187500001,"end":1568.5453437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1568.69721875,"end":1586.0615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1586.1797187500001,"end":1623.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1623.86159375,"end":1638.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1638.59346875,"end":1706.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1707.0215937500002,"end":1711.8140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1711.9828437500003,"end":1712.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1712.5397187500002,"end":1713.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1713.9065937500002,"end":1721.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1721.85471875,"end":1727.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1727.6765937500002,"end":1733.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1734.2915937500002,"end":1735.7597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1735.8440937500002,"end":1737.2615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1737.5315937500002,"end":1744.0453437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1744.1634687500002,"end":1766.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1766.99534375,"end":1789.1690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1791.88596875,"end":1797.8597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1797.9947187500002,"end":1803.6309687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1803.9009687500002,"end":1813.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1813.9247187500002,"end":1817.6034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1818.5147187500002,"end":1822.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1823.2228437500003,"end":1823.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1825.0622187500003,"end":1828.4372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1828.8253437500002,"end":1835.8284687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1836.6384687500001,"end":1837.5665937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1838.3934687500002,"end":1842.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1842.8315937500001,"end":1843.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1844.77221875,"end":1849.9190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1850.2903437500001,"end":1853.4122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1853.76659375,"end":1858.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1859.6390937500003,"end":1865.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1865.9165937500002,"end":1870.0509687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1870.3378437500003,"end":1881.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1881.6947187500002,"end":1937.2809687500003}],"whisperx":[{"start":421.695,"end":437.471,"text":"現在預定協商的時間已到那三位黨團的代表也都到了我們現在就開始進行協商那今天協商的主題是由台灣民眾黨黨團拟據醫療法第12條第102條及102條之一條文修正勤審議案"},{"start":445.066,"end":469.404,"text":"那一樣是有院會交付協商那有台灣民眾黨團負責召集協商我們現在先介紹在場的委員那有民主進步黨的鍾嘉賓委員陳培宇委員還有王振旭委員那中國國民黨的徐宇峥委員還有台灣民眾黨的陳昭芝委員那今天也很感謝我們衛生福利輸進權"},{"start":471.994,"end":498.373,"text":"不好意思那個蘇清泉委員現在也步入了協商的會場那也感謝我們今天衛福部有林靜儀政務次長有到場那還有其他一些衛福部的官員時間的關係抱歉就不一一的介紹好那我們現在先請那個台灣民眾黨黨團是不是先請陳昭之委員來說明提案要旨"},{"start":500.046,"end":516.285,"text":"我們這個時間追溯到2023年賴清德總統競選總統的時候公開承諾要讓護病筆入法而且是兩年內要做到護病筆入法"},{"start":517.327,"end":522.972,"text":"所以這一屆我參與大概將近兩年來我看到很多民進黨的理想都是民眾黨在實現的我們把它當一回事護理師在職場上所受到的包括人力的不足過時的工作環境還有過時的一些對待我想任何每一個黨都比這個更清楚賴總統也看得非常清楚自己出身一屆"},{"start":542.33,"end":544.233,"text":"所以他才會在競選總統的時候提出了這樣的一個政見那這個是引起全台灣目前應該有大概19萬吧20萬位護理師非常重要說不定也因此把票投給民進黨"},{"start":558.76,"end":563.603,"text":"但是我發現這個承諾在從一開始的歷屆的衛生署署長好像開始閃躲這個問題就是總統提出的政見但是衛福部部長就開始閃躲這樣的問題目前台灣據了解當然次長也可以再做修正因為有沒有改善據我了解40%的空床率"},{"start":580.154,"end":598.964,"text":"那個空床主要原因主要原因還是護理師的不足那護理師目前是具有護理師證照大概有六成的人在職業但是六成職業的人當中大概也只有頂多六成是在醫院服務我們今天談到的護病病當然就是指醫院的部分"},{"start":600.865,"end":603.747,"text":"怎麼樣讓領有證照的護理師回到職場或是讓他們能夠願意在我們需要他們的地方繼續工作這是執政黨這是政府責無旁貸的責任所以事實上我們提出這個法案的方向其實我們只是在"},{"start":619.059,"end":631.572,"text":"看到事實也幫助履行賴總統的一個競選承諾所以我們才提出了一個方法我們並沒有把直接互併筆的數字直接入法我們是建議有設置一個委員會類似委員會在這個"},{"start":636.056,"end":656.916,"text":"醫院這個設置標準當中有個委員會那我們希望有相當比率通常會思考這個相當比率就是過半不要低於一半的護理師人員能夠來制定因為這個病房每個醫院的包括病人的病情不同的病房他們需求等等這個他們是自己最清楚所以我們其實主要是做了這個方向讓護理師們有所期待"},{"start":661.24,"end":670.289,"text":"如果不動不做這兩年來我所有的執行都不動不做我們現在就要稍微請教衛福部第一個你們如何面對賴總統的公開承諾第二個就是說"},{"start":674.662,"end":699.968,"text":"行政機關不要像上一場協商每一場的協商都一樣行政機關不是負責提問題的不是叫負責提問題然後叫立法院立法委員來解決問題應該是我們提問題然後由你們來解決問題所以是護病筆到底這個方向我想醫院團體也知道護病筆這個方向是一定要把這個方向盤要拿準方向是怎麼走但是要怎麼做怎麼做"},{"start":702.669,"end":718.762,"text":"不會造成瞬間的我們擔心的某些效應包括這個可能瞬間空床力現在等於是40次長也可以再修正我最後一次的數字是40%的空床那這個方向怎麼做我等一下好好聽聽這個"},{"start":721.051,"end":745.877,"text":"衛福部你怎麼來履行你們最高元首競選的承諾怎麼來面對護理師不回到職場不回到醫院這樣的一個困境讓人民很擔心很害怕這個工作是你們的所以我們提這個案是來希望提醒不要說了又不做不要只是選舉時的一張票然後最後變成巴勒票我先發言到此為止"},{"start":748.181,"end":757.417,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭志委員那不曉得下一位是哪一個黨團的代表想要發言好 那我們現在有請那個中國國民黨的蘇清泉蘇委員"},{"start":759.864,"end":776.836,"text":"謝謝主席,我很感謝民眾黨提熱這個案子長期以來對我們醫療的關心,尤其對婦女人員他們的付出也感謝婦女界,我們的福利是最大的問題"},{"start":779.337,"end":807.472,"text":"一間病院 護理人員的問題解決差不多解決三萬四十的事情大家都很關心事實上這幾年來我們健保也爭取了很多的預算比如說前任的部長還有現任的部長還有林次長等等都很用心花很多錢來預助這是要跟他們肯定的"},{"start":808.292,"end":829.81,"text":"價值起來,社長點值也有增加。我跟大家報告,我是在偏遠地區做重症的,所以我來說應該大家聽下去,我又心中外科醫生。所以在偏遠地區真的是,我們中央社會委員,我們屏東的,花蓮、台東、屏東,這些都很恐怖的地方。"},{"start":834.929,"end":853.663,"text":"說到這個福利人員要三班复辟、要入伙,我們很害怕,很害怕。現在這幾年欠到的錢,實際上都在調整醫事相關人力的薪水。福利人員的薪資,現在王子修你應該知道,大家調得非常高。"},{"start":854.643,"end":871.118,"text":"所以幾乎是醫療院所拿到的多餘出來的這些錢都在調薪水所以大家也是很努力的在配合那那個衛福部雖然沒有入閥但是衛福部本身也在訂定這個醫協中心區醫院 地區醫院"},{"start":872.199,"end":898.671,"text":"也護士白篇小頁大頁的配的病床筆所以是有在做那現在說要接他入伙我們是非常擔心尤其像我們花蓮慈濟醫院的院長很高興高興到好像一直打電話給次長、給部長要打給我所以不是花蓮而已台大也一樣所以在平原地區更加嚴重"},{"start":899.651,"end":913.391,"text":"那這個案子我們是尊重但是我是希望因為我們國民黨這邊由我來提案也提出一個案明天會在大宴會會交付給委員會"},{"start":915.473,"end":925.758,"text":"我覺得我可以請求我們國昌主席把這個案子稍等一等,等到我們的案子出現,做回來協商,不要急著買,"},{"start":930.16,"end":945.95,"text":"這是知識體大另外一個就是那個諮詢委員會婦理界我也很尊重但是要求說這個會員就要他們手上沾一半沾一半就不用議了他們說什麼就說什麼所以應該是要叫以前就是差不多三分之一議會的三分之一然後行政黨要跟學者專家三分之一這樣的話我就討論了這是我先發言的注定 以上"},{"start":961.789,"end":985.099,"text":"好 非常感謝蘇欽前蘇委員那下一位是王振旭 王委員要發言是不是有請王委員好 謝謝主席也很謝謝趙思維委員一開始就提醒大家有關於這個扶貧筆如何能夠在賴總統當初提出政見的時候要照顧福利金額這是很重要的很重要的 剛才我們要怎麼請你 委員"},{"start":996.566,"end":1008.074,"text":"我相信我自己在從事醫療在醫學中心服務還有在地區醫院區醫院服務過的經驗來看這個真的是非常重要其實"},{"start":1009.375,"end":1037.441,"text":"所有的醫療團體 都是在同一條船上我們的目標 都是要照顧患者不管是在哪一個層級 哪一個單位 哪一個職務同樣都是希望 為了讓台灣的醫療可以更好讓我們要照顧的病人 都能夠回復到健康回復到社會 替社會繼續貢獻他們的力量當然這個過程裡面 很多護理同仁的付出大家都看得到"},{"start":1038.121,"end":1056.414,"text":"也知道他們很辛苦這個剛剛我們事務委員已經講得非常的清楚當然這個一般來講我們這個同一陣線的這麼多同仁事實上至少有15職類以上同仁來做這些事情造化到把一個病人照顧好所以我們也"},{"start":1057.134,"end":1078.932,"text":"希望能夠針對所有相關的事情都能夠有比較好的考慮的模式這樣希望可以解決我們的問題我們也知道婦理同仁這個是自從我自己擔任醫師我看到都是癌症病人不可能我在照顧病人而已我最依賴的其實都是我們婦理的同仁共同來照顧病人"},{"start":1079.512,"end":1104.633,"text":"因為我們照顧的不是只有病人還有他的家人還有如何能夠讓他們在整個過程裡面得到最好最完整的一些醫療還有相關的這種照護這個都是我們一直以來希望大家共同來把這個事情做好可是如果我們從這個今天要修法的內容來看我們還是有一些擔心因為就好像這個剛師傅稍微所提到的這個問題可能不是那麼單純"},{"start":1106.594,"end":1127.194,"text":"那其實這幾年來透過衛護部編的相當多的預算來提高我們護理同仁的待遇那我們把這個工作環境也持續的在優化當中不管是AI的導入或是各方面的進步事實上我們也理解醫護同仁還是非常非常的辛苦"},{"start":1127.734,"end":1149.568,"text":"不過等一下也許我們也可以請次長讓大家了解一下過去這幾年來的努力對護理同仁造成了哪一些工作待遇上的影響還有他工作環境上的可以讓護理同仁希望他們回到這個護理這個行業的時候尤其在醫院工作的時候有更多進步或者是讓大家會安心的地方"},{"start":1150.348,"end":1165.014,"text":"我們比較擔心的就是說如果這個修法的內容沒有經過充分的討論尤其像現在蘇委員也有提了一個相關的一些內容進來是不是有機會大家更加充分的再溝通再討論"},{"start":1166.855,"end":1182.79,"text":"這樣希望能夠讓事情有更多的理解以後再來做後續的這些修法的內容其實這個負並比屬於系統性的政策議題這真的不是說我們把這個指標做了那些調整以後就能夠"},{"start":1184.251,"end":1204.676,"text":"有效改善的護病人力的這些內容所以如果需要透過更廣泛的這些處理的話那我們希望在內容上還有更多要拿捏的地方另外就是比較擔心如果用法律的預設來用決策結構先設定好的話"},{"start":1205.416,"end":1232.854,"text":"那將來會不會限縮到這個多元專業的參與因為我們知道醫療法剛剛提到至少在醫院裡面就有至少有15例別以上你現在就是在這個法律12條裡面把這個其中有關你負病的部分直接提出來的話那將來在多元參與的部分我們也很擔心在造成後續的影響那剛剛蘇召惟也提到決策結構的失衡"},{"start":1233.534,"end":1262.319,"text":"你來用二分之一這樣的方式來做討論最後委員會的決議的話那對於相當造成的未來政策正當性跟可行性可能就會讓事情不只沒有解決問題我們擔心果然在整個團隊上讓病人的招呼是不是會有點失衡這個也是大家要非常非常注意的地方"},{"start":1262.879,"end":1284.153,"text":"那另外增訂了這個102條之一如果是重罰跟停業的機制萬一真的執行那其實受傷害最重的是病人醫療機構本來就是要服務病人你現在把它停下來了這個停下來有時候是有一些無法去回溺的這種狀況之下這樣事情就大掉了"},{"start":1286.774,"end":1304.402,"text":"那對於整個醫療來講那個就是私信於民就是我們從契約的角度來講這個其實是非常要小心的地方所以以上這幾點如果能夠有更好更充分的討論我也了解趙執委員也了解這個"},{"start":1305.903,"end":1329.614,"text":"黃主席很希望能夠針對於我們異物同仁有更好的保障有更多的一些讓他們在就業或者是服務的過程裡面真的是讓大家充分的尊重護理的專業不過如果修法本身還有需要更多的討論的話我們很期待大家可以再詳細來討論以上我先表達我的意見謝謝黃主席 謝謝"},{"start":1332.163,"end":1358.871,"text":"好 謝謝王委員三個黨團的代表其實都已經發言了衛福部的書面報告也看到了不曉得今天次長有沒有希望再口頭補充什麼來 有請次長謝謝主席 謝謝我們三黨的各位委員的指導其實也真的衛福部非常感謝各位委員不論朝野都非常關心台灣我們在醫療服務輸出的部分能夠持續維持能夠滿足民眾的需求"},{"start":1359.871,"end":1382.308,"text":"但是同時也要能夠兼顧所有醫療人員的工作權益跟職場環境因為我們現在其實面臨到了這個包含COVID之後每個國家大概都有遇到COVID之後每個人對於這個進入職場尤其是醫療職場上面的人力都有一波的波動不過也先跟各位關心這個議題的委員報告就是說事實上一直到上個月我們全國的護理人員職業人數已經回來到198,526人"},{"start":1385.33,"end":1405.57,"text":"那比去年同期多了4650人而且其中有超過一半他是回到醫院因為在前兩年比較大的部分是雖然增加人數但是有一些都到基層去那所以會讓醫院這邊的負荷比較大所以第一個部分也謝謝各位朝野委員的關心讓我們其實一直來把我們的環境弄好讓護理人員回流"},{"start":1406.37,"end":1426.142,"text":"剛剛昭智委員有提到空床的部分這邊也要特別再跟各位委員說明就是說事實上這也是我們全台灣在各個不同的區域有區域的差別有不同層級醫院服務的差別所以其實每個醫院在經營或者是在提供服務的過程中就像剛剛我們蘇星泉昭委提到的"},{"start":1426.922,"end":1454.681,"text":"這個面臨到尤其是偏鄉所以這一次其實看到委員這邊雖然很好意要為我們來協助解決這個問題但是很多的醫院都表達了很大的關心尤其我聽到都是偏鄉醫院那也跟剛剛這個這個趙執政委員補充就是說其實剛剛提到空床率這個空床就有非常大的差別比方說我們自己現在正在盤點醫學中心裡頭比方說像有一些都會的醫院他幾乎空床率非常低"},{"start":1457.023,"end":1470.318,"text":"有的就是一直都滿床的狀態可是有些我們也真的沒有錯就有些醫院尤其是比較是可能是在所謂的這個都會周邊的醫院它其實就會有比較高的空床那這個部分我們正在想辦法來協調跟調節相關的這個醫療資源尤其床數的資源"},{"start":1474.162,"end":1500.703,"text":"那所以簡單來說意思就是說所有的醫事人員在醫療服務的輸出過程中都不可或缺可是有城鄉或者是有區域還有不同層級醫療院所他在任務上面他在招募人力上面的一些差異那尤其這個部分如果說像剛剛提到的委員這邊一旦就是把他入法之後然後這邊他就會立刻回到有停業的問題的話那我們會擔心很多偏鄉的醫院會沒有辦法經營"},{"start":1501.704,"end":1523.189,"text":"那這些其實很多醫院在尤其是很多偏鄉醫院他留這個彈性事實上很大的重點是一旦他突然出現大量傷患或者是突然之間有一些大量的急症的時候那那個彈性是必須出現的這是醫療上面有一些不可預期我們當然希望不要一個蘿蔔一個坑那要留到這樣相關不可預期的狀況能夠維持我們醫療服務的量能"},{"start":1523.769,"end":1549.453,"text":"那再補充就是說在現有條文的第12條雖然在條文裡面我們在醫療機構設置的設施還有我們的人員跟診療特別設置條件這邊條文上並沒有寫要找誰來開會但是也跟各位委員補充我們在101年那次最大修我們所有的新增人員新增醫事人員還有調整醫事人員在醫療機構配置的時候"},{"start":1549.913,"end":1572.863,"text":"那一次我們相關的學協會我們就整整開了13次所以其實每一次我們在調整每個醫療院所不同層級醫療機構的設置標準的時候事實上就像剛剛蘇星泉委員提到的我們其實會廣納廣邀不同區域不同層級的醫療院所還有不同職業種類的醫事人員一起來參與我們在整個設置標準上的討論"},{"start":1575.025,"end":1602.604,"text":"也真的必須說如果直接明定在這一個目前的條文委員的版本裡頭我們會擔心可能第一個是有一些團體可能在這個過程中反而會沒有辦法依照需求來納入討論第二個部分就是說在這個狀況之下那一旦這個硬性的處理之後怕有一些尤其是偏鄉或者是資源比較不足區人力招募比較困難可是又持續要維持服務像冰凍那樣的地方我們真的壓力會比較大"},{"start":1603.084,"end":1628.122,"text":"那再跟委員補充就是說其實我們現在我們依照未來台灣人口結構醫療資源的分佈還有現在我們也正在積極的協助各醫療機構能夠做智慧導入那還有我們在職場環境跟醫事人員其他的優惠等等來做各層級整個的參數來做討論那其實也就是對於各機構的設置標準事實上我們都是隨時在做滾動式的修正啦"},{"start":1628.562,"end":1651.844,"text":"那剛剛委員所提到的對於我們護理這邊也在補充就是其實我們在2024年7月核定護理人力整備12項策略4年我們投入275.4億那這邊包含了護病比這邊的補助那其實像比方說部立醫院我們現在是在我們最近一次調查全部全台灣的部立醫院我們都已經達成三班護病比的標準能夠拿到獎勵"},{"start":1652.765,"end":1671.467,"text":"那再來的話就是說夜班津貼的直接獎勵有明確的達成在各醫療院所能夠讓過去比較吃力的夜班有比較好的人力的補充那三班戶面筆達標的醫院我們現在用獎勵的方式也就是希望能夠體諒有些醫院他可能還有一些需要做的調整那我們也持續在其他的制度裡面來給予協助"},{"start":1672.968,"end":1701.307,"text":"另外还有几个可能比较细节的包含新手临床导师制度这一块我们特别拨了一些预算跟经费因为其实很多第一线的服务的学姐他比较痛苦的是要带新手你给我很多新的人我带新手带得更辛苦所以其实我们在新手导师的临床导师制度里面编列每年3.6亿元来减轻病房护理人员带新人的时候的这样子的压力所以这几个都是我们已经在执行而且护理界"},{"start":1701.767,"end":1726.341,"text":"也普遍認為說這樣子的協助有助於在廣納更多人才來穩定人力那另外在這個擴大住院整合照護計畫裡面還有多元的護理彈性那這幾個部分我們目前都發現說它可以讓我們的護理人員有更多彈性多元的服務方式那也讓護理人員這邊可以解除掉一些比較基礎的這個非專業服務的部分我們用整合照護來做協助"},{"start":1727.922,"end":1750.351,"text":"另外在最後補充一個就是我們現在正在做智慧科技的協助就是我們在這個目前的深耕計畫裡面協助各個醫院來做科技的導入舉個例子比方我們上次到台中總看我們過去的護理人員都要到BestSight去倒尿看他多少點滴每隔半個小時去看點滴現在還剩多少可是現在我們用這個智慧導入"},{"start":1752.032,"end":1775.009,"text":"那不論是護理紀錄不論是我們包含那個IO進多少議題出來多少議題等等都逐漸變成智慧化的處理其實就是很實質的希望能夠用科技的方式在現有人力的配置之下來減輕護理人員的負擔所以還是再一次謝謝各位委員的關心那我們這邊其實還是有相關我不要佔太多時間有相關的一些成績我們會持續來跟委員做報告"},{"start":1775.629,"end":1786.136,"text":"那也希望說能夠兼顧我們目前現有的一個這個協商的機制那我們也會繼續再來落實在我們做相關設置標準每一次調整還有相關的評鑑的時候都能夠廣納各相關學協會的意見"},{"start":1794.01,"end":1816.34,"text":"謝謝衛福部的次長所做的一些說明剛剛三個黨團的代表都已經發言完畢了蘇清泉委員 王振旭委員兩位大概都是一屆非常令人敬重的前輩對我們的護理同仁的辛勞以及他們權益的保障我相信應該"},{"start":1818.618,"end":1843.356,"text":"是放在心裡面啦而且可以實現那只不過說或許三班互併筆入法的這件事情這個政見要兌現或是這個政見要實現以現在我們所存在的客觀條件而言似乎是還有一些距離那最近這段時間我知道有很多"},{"start":1845.044,"end":1858.433,"text":"一屆的前輩也表達了很多的看法但是未來怎麼樣去進一步保障我們護理同仁的權益同時也同時增加病患"},{"start":1859.693,"end":1878.14,"text":"在照顧上面的需求照顧上面的品質還需要共同努力那今天蘇委員也說了說你有一個版本要進來那王征旭王委員也說了你有可能要考慮或許王委員再想一想有沒有什麼更高明的設計那"},{"start":1881.786,"end":1901.024,"text":"不是 因為大家總是要開始慢慢整合出一個方向嘛因為你不要只是空談空談再討論再研議 不知道討論到什麼時候但蘇委員就很具體嘛你有一個版本買進來嘛那我相信王委員站在議界的立場也會幫我們護理同仁爭取權益啦"},{"start":1902.085,"end":1930.306,"text":"那所以今天的這一場協商我們這個協商就持續的進行等到國民黨的黨團這邊看你們整合出一個什麼樣的版本民進黨黨團這邊王恩委員這邊有什麼樣子的高見提出來了以後我們再繼續的進行要不然我如果今天喊協商結束雖然我不會這樣做但我很怕一些異界的前輩今天晚上睡不著覺所以我們這個法案我們就"},{"start":1931.709,"end":1934.959,"text":"繼續協商非常感謝各位同仁的參與我們這場協商到此結束 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17201","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17201","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea6e13f430e0f158c2017413a31dc471f40a219bd209750d2d24ddbed83ac182e95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-15T13:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「不在籍投票法草案」，請審議案。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-15T13:01:23+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-16T14:00:20+08:00","duration":89937,"影片長度":"24:58:57","委員發言時間":"13:01:23 - 14:00:20","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2026011257","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1836.0140937500003,"end":1837.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1837.75221875,"end":1858.8797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1859.1328437500001,"end":1868.4984687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1868.9034687500002,"end":1875.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1876.3115937500002,"end":1879.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1880.0072187500002,"end":1882.9434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1883.5003437500002,"end":1889.4740937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1890.1490937500002,"end":1897.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1898.2490937500002,"end":1899.1434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1899.5484687500002,"end":1903.4972187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1904.10471875,"end":1905.0328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1906.4672187500003,"end":1908.8803437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1910.2303437500002,"end":1915.4278437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1916.0015937500002,"end":1918.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1919.2415937500002,"end":1922.0259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1922.0259687500002,"end":1922.8022187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1924.0172187500002,"end":1927.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1928.0672187500002,"end":1937.9222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1938.3440937500002,"end":1939.5253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1940.2172187500003,"end":1942.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1943.35596875,"end":1946.6297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1947.42284375,"end":1948.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1948.5703437500001,"end":1952.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1953.88596875,"end":1956.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1957.3115937500002,"end":1960.8890937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1962.0703437500001,"end":1971.3178437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1971.62159375,"end":1982.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1982.8265937500003,"end":1991.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1992.00659375,"end":1996.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1997.0859687500001,"end":2000.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2000.73096875,"end":2007.8015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2007.9534687500002,"end":2013.0328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2013.5728437500002,"end":2015.6147187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2016.7959687500002,"end":2020.2553437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2020.9303437500002,"end":2025.2503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2026.2459687500002,"end":2044.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2044.87596875,"end":2048.9597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2050.5290937500004,"end":2057.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2058.1903437500005,"end":2241.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2244.03471875,"end":2249.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2251.51034375,"end":2347.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2348.96346875,"end":2357.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2359.1728437500005,"end":2368.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2368.84221875,"end":2376.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2377.34721875,"end":2385.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2385.9365937500006,"end":2396.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2397.4453437500006,"end":2405.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2406.3553437500004,"end":2413.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2414.7928437500004,"end":2424.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2424.46221875,"end":2427.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2428.4615937500002,"end":2433.7097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2434.51971875,"end":2443.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2444.30721875,"end":2446.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2446.63596875,"end":2448.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2449.23471875,"end":2451.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2451.46221875,"end":2452.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2452.25534375,"end":2453.4197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2454.06096875,"end":2477.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2478.1922187500004,"end":2491.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2491.54034375,"end":2501.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2501.9353437500004,"end":2506.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2507.4872187500005,"end":2521.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2521.84784375,"end":2523.1472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2523.61971875,"end":2524.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2525.1384687500004,"end":2528.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2528.8172187500004,"end":2529.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2530.40346875,"end":2535.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2535.73596875,"end":2538.4022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2538.9422187500004,"end":2541.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2542.51971875,"end":2547.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2548.49346875,"end":2550.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2551.68284375,"end":2557.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2557.7578437500006,"end":2558.9053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2559.51284375,"end":2561.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2562.12846875,"end":2565.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2565.4528437500003,"end":2571.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2572.4053437500006,"end":2585.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2585.97284375,"end":2587.3903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2588.21721875,"end":2588.7234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2589.22971875,"end":2591.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2592.4022187500004,"end":2600.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2600.56971875,"end":2602.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2602.9997187500003,"end":2616.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2617.1072187500004,"end":2619.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2619.55409375,"end":2622.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2623.04721875,"end":2630.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2631.06284375,"end":2638.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2639.31471875,"end":2645.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2646.60471875,"end":2648.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2648.59596875,"end":2649.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2649.57471875,"end":2653.1690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2653.7428437500002,"end":2655.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2656.5947187500005,"end":2662.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2663.3953437500004,"end":2664.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2664.39096875,"end":2667.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2667.71534375,"end":2671.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2671.69784375,"end":2675.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2675.30909375,"end":2688.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2688.57284375,"end":2701.3809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2701.8365937500002,"end":2706.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2706.7303437500004,"end":2713.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2713.9697187500005,"end":2724.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2726.17034375,"end":2731.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2732.36346875,"end":2737.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2737.6453437500004,"end":2758.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2759.4647187500004,"end":2763.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2764.1559687500003,"end":2770.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2771.3953437500004,"end":2775.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2775.4284687500003,"end":2780.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2780.35596875,"end":2781.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2782.16159375,"end":2787.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2787.2409687500003,"end":2794.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2795.64471875,"end":2808.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2809.04346875,"end":2814.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2814.62909375,"end":2819.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2820.24846875,"end":2822.0709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2822.8134687500005,"end":2824.8722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2825.8847187500005,"end":2836.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2836.6172187500006,"end":2845.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2846.57346875,"end":2853.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2853.5428437500004,"end":2855.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2855.9053437500006,"end":2865.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2866.28346875,"end":2867.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2870.7215937500005,"end":2875.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2876.59409375,"end":2879.9353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2880.5934687500003,"end":2887.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2887.9678437500006,"end":2900.3709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2900.82659375,"end":2904.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2904.5390937500006,"end":2908.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2909.07846875,"end":2924.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2924.31659375,"end":2925.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2925.53159375,"end":2926.1053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2926.62846875,"end":2928.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2928.9403437500005,"end":2935.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2935.58909375,"end":2942.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2942.9803437500004,"end":2944.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2945.6297187500004,"end":2949.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2949.9834687500006,"end":2951.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2952.1940937500003,"end":2953.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2953.74659375,"end":2963.6690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2963.98971875,"end":2974.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2975.2115937500002,"end":2982.1640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2982.6534687500007,"end":2985.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2985.67409375,"end":2988.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2989.90971875,"end":3003.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3003.9665937500004,"end":3008.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3008.9784687500005,"end":3011.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3011.47596875,"end":3029.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3029.2959687500006,"end":3034.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3034.7128437500005,"end":3038.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3039.38721875,"end":3044.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3044.80409375,"end":3064.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3064.27784375,"end":3079.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3080.29221875,"end":3082.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3082.8065937500005,"end":3087.4978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3087.95346875,"end":3091.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3091.88534375,"end":3092.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3092.84721875,"end":3095.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3095.7159687500007,"end":3097.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3097.96034375,"end":3098.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3099.05721875,"end":3135.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3135.67596875,"end":3165.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3165.57846875,"end":3178.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3179.1122187500005,"end":3183.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3183.7697187500007,"end":3184.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3185.0859687500006,"end":3186.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3186.5372187500006,"end":3189.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3190.23284375,"end":3190.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3191.32971875,"end":3192.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3192.7472187500007,"end":3199.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3199.14284375,"end":3201.1678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3201.3534687500005,"end":3204.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3204.3572187500004,"end":3209.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3209.9259687500007,"end":3213.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3213.3515937500006,"end":3218.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3218.24534375,"end":3218.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3218.2959687500006,"end":3218.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3218.80221875,"end":3220.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3220.55721875,"end":3223.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3223.6453437500004,"end":3225.5353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3225.78846875,"end":3227.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3227.89784375,"end":3229.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3229.9228437500005,"end":3231.9815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3232.2178437500006,"end":3234.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3234.4453437500006,"end":3236.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3237.1453437500004,"end":3238.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3238.86659375,"end":3241.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3241.76909375,"end":3245.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3245.4815937500007,"end":3266.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3267.92534375,"end":3273.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3274.5234687500006,"end":3279.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3279.9909687500003,"end":3314.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3314.61846875,"end":3372.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3351.0684687500006,"end":3351.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3351.13596875,"end":3351.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3375.2334687500006,"end":3383.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3383.75534375,"end":3384.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3384.59909375,"end":3386.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3388.8515937500006,"end":3391.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3394.9434687500006,"end":3395.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3396.2597187500005,"end":3402.1153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3410.45159375,"end":3411.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3412.91534375,"end":3414.2315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3415.04159375,"end":3416.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3417.3028437500006,"end":3419.2772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3420.03659375,"end":3421.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3421.96034375,"end":3423.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3423.83346875,"end":3427.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3427.37721875,"end":3429.85784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1836.072,"end":1856.623,"text":"好 現在開始開會今天進行黨團協商台灣民眾黨黨團擬拒之不在即投票法草案案本案經114年12月12號本屆第四會期第13次會議院會決定進副二讀並由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商因此我們今天在本次會議進行黨團協商"},{"start":1860.105,"end":1878.319,"text":"首先介紹在場的各個黨團的代表右手邊的有民主進步黨的鍾嘉賓委員陳培宇委員中國國民黨的徐宇貞委員台灣民眾黨的張祺凱委員陳昭智委員今天也感謝各個行政機關"},{"start":1880.086,"end":1903.2,"text":"有派相關的人員出席那中選會目前的代理主委吳榮輝代理主委非常感謝代理主委波隆出席那其他各行政機關的代表因為時間的關係我就不一一介紹要不然這些名字唸完可能要一段時間請各個行政機關的代表多見諒好那接下來再進入"},{"start":1910.407,"end":1939.286,"text":"現在就開始協商了是不是先請提案的台灣民眾黨黨團的代表是張綺凱委員請張綺凱委員今天這個協商非常重要因為這個不在籍投票在全世界先進國家的島都已經實施多年了日本在1998年就是27年前就開始實施了"},{"start":1940.287,"end":1960.544,"text":"我們中華民國說自己叫科技大國竟然到今天它都還沒有南韓是2009年連很多移工在我們台灣的這個印尼印尼是2014年12年前印尼就有了就是在有些移工在台灣在工作的同時他們都已經在行駛海外"},{"start":1962.11,"end":1981.763,"text":"海外這個投票了結果他們在不在即投票台灣竟然到現在遠遠落後於印尼跟菲律賓真的有點丟臉更重要的我們號稱科技大國啊所以今天我看到中選會怎麼想包括怎麼實施不在即投票會有風險啊怎麼對自己這麼沒有信心這是第一個那第二個"},{"start":1982.878,"end":1999.631,"text":"今天陸委會也提了一個說明我們要很明確的證明這一次台灣民眾黨所提出來的這個案子只有在自由地區就是台澎金嘛沒有在海外也沒有在對岸所以請不要"},{"start":2001.056,"end":2024.656,"text":"請弄清楚那個範圍好不好請陸委會還有一些民進黨立委不要抹紅第三個也非常重要這個不在其投票不只是民主國家先進國家一直都是在做在台灣對於我們很多北漂南漂或者是戶籍在外面的協子或者是軍公教的這個人員是那一天要負責顯霧工作的這個人員"},{"start":2026.691,"end":2048.276,"text":"對爭取他們的投票權都非常重要他可以省時間我可以省時又可以省時間這個是非常重要的所以記憶上面三個理由我們非常的期待在這個會期之前可以趕快把這個所謂科技大國的台灣而且是定位只有在台澎金馬趕快完成三讀 謝謝"},{"start":2051.18,"end":2057.02,"text":"好 謝謝張祺楷委員那接下來不曉得哪一個黨團的代表要發言好 來請民進黨的陳培宇委員"},{"start":2058.237,"end":2080.868,"text":"好 謝謝提案黨團的說明我要說今天根本就是一場不應該召開的協商我先說結論今天根本是一場不應該召開的協商在立法院確實有很多法案可以淨附二讀但是很可惜我們看到有這麼多不在即投票今天淨附二讀被拿到協商會場上來討論的只有你民眾黨黨團的版本我就問"},{"start":2085.47,"end":2107.258,"text":"今天國民黨的代表徐玉珍委員你也坐在這裡我們來看一下還有多少所謂藍白和國民黨委員你們的提案版本被丟包在委員會待審但是你們今天卻要坐在這裡幫民眾黨說話第一個行政院的版本當然我可以理解藍白不想理行政院的版本好你們不處理也就算了"},{"start":2109.339,"end":2136.89,"text":"鄭天才的委員在內政委員會他談的是全國公民性投票蘇巧慧委員談的也是全國性公民投票牛許廷國民黨的委員一樣被丟包在內政委員會待審徐宇貞委員您的版本也被丟包在內政委員會待審而你今天決定坐在這裡幫助民動黨處理他們荒謬的提案有多麼荒謬我們等一下來說林思銘委員的版本葛如軍委員的版本魯明哲委員的版本鄭天才委員第二個版本"},{"start":2137.57,"end":2157.623,"text":"羅廷偉委員的版本 王宏威委員 陳金輝委員 洪孟凱委員有兩個版本一樣被丟包 最後是武力化委員的版本我就問 為什麼要禁賦二讀這麼多委員的版本被丟包在委員會 不願意實質討論而你民眾黨委員的版本 民眾黨黨團提案又比較厲害 比較高級 比較偉大嗎為什麼可以直接禁賦二讀 不用放在委員會討論呢我就問 當你要說台灣是先進國家的時候"},{"start":2165.908,"end":2170.693,"text":"你要不要去看一下別的先進國家在討論這些法案細節的時候大家是多麼在意執行的細節大家多麼在意基層公務人員面對這個不在即投票選務的建議請問你們有聽基層選務人員的建議你們有聽所有行政單位的建議嗎你們今天就選擇把民眾黨黨團的版本進覆二讀然後今天協商"},{"start":2187.25,"end":2198.755,"text":"是不是打算禮拜五就過水處理表決了呢然後宇珍委員你的版本被丟包在委員會所以你禮拜五也打算一併幫忙提案了嗎一併幫忙表決通過了嗎我覺得非常的荒謬所以我剛才會說先說結論今天根本就是一場不應該召開的協商喔再來我要說所有行政單位的建議所有基層選務公務人員的聲音你們都去聽了嗎你們都問了嗎你們都收集到了嗎今天不是科技不科技的問題"},{"start":2216.682,"end":2240.627,"text":"就連很多國家都說台灣的投票方法這件事情是值得學習的它可以避開很多擔心的問題最後我要說民進黨黨團也提了一個所謂民主價如果我們希望促進投票又希望在民主的機制底下保障不要有各式各樣的外力介入那請支持民進黨黨團提案的民主促進價"},{"start":2244.096,"end":2267.559,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝民進黨黨團代表的發言中歐國民黨黨團的代表請謝謝主席我想剛剛陳培宇委員特別下了一個結論我覺得也不用這樣妄下結論因為其實我們今天坐在這裡協商其實就是要大家廣泛的討論那當然不在即投票涉及選舉制度的一個重大的變革"},{"start":2268.32,"end":2286.702,"text":"所以當然一定要先取得這個社會有共識之前以及中選會做好配套之後為前提才能夠進行所以其實針對民主黨黨團提出的這個移轉投票的部分並適用在中央跟地方公職人員選舉跟全國性的公民投票"},{"start":2287.082,"end":2305.183,"text":"那國民黨團認為就是現階段的社會共識仍有不足建議繼續協商凝聚共識後再推動那當然我想今天這個協商其實就是凝聚共識的其中一環所以說其實我覺得陳培委員不用這麼緊張一開始就先下了一個結論其實今天就是大家可以共同討論"},{"start":2306.024,"end":2310.927,"text":"那當然就是說剛剛我們也提到其實中選會這個代理主委在這邊我們也想知道說針對我們現在的這個假設一轉投票到底中選會在施行上有什麼樣的困難比如說包括涉及選舉人名冊的編造跨縣市的投票轉換還有須高度依賴戶籍跟選務系統的這個精準對接那中選會跟戶政機關是不是已經做好完整的配套我想今天中選會代理主委也可以在這邊做一個說明"},{"start":2335.459,"end":2347.584,"text":"重點是我想這是一個針對先進國家其實我想都需要的一個公民投票但是我想剛剛我們提到這兩項的問題今天可以一起來共同討論 謝謝好 謝謝徐議貞委員吳代理主委今天你也撥攏前來你有沒有想要說些什麼來 請"},{"start":2360.037,"end":2367.992,"text":"主席還有我們黨團各位立委我想這樣子我站在中選會立場我必須要去表達不在其投票法"},{"start":2368.956,"end":2396.422,"text":"的這個訂定我們說不在即投票的確可以讓我們的這個選舉人在行使投票的時候他的可及性跟這個便利性的確會有可是他的前提必須說我們選入的可行性不能影響選入的可行性還有一個你這個實施了這個不在即投票你必須不能影響到選舉競爭的公正性跟他結果被信賴"},{"start":2398.143,"end":2413.155,"text":"所以我這裡要特別說如果假設我們實施了不在籍投票那個選務的負荷量會非常大但是我們必須要了解所有選務的工作它是有它的極限性"},{"start":2414.844,"end":2441.11,"text":"工作人員不是超人他也不是無敵鐵金剛所以你一直加他的工作說他都沒有問題過度的嫌污的負荷就會造成嫌污的混亂跟他的災難那我隨便舉個例來講我們說以我們這裡的空間假設是一個投開票所的話我們要移轉的票假設我們全國現在要移轉的票地方公職人員總共有多少種總共有8896種"},{"start":2444.366,"end":2453.122,"text":"那一個投開票的時候不要疑這麼多啊我疑你這個100種就好了各位都有去投過票"},{"start":2454.127,"end":2477.345,"text":"各位看到投票開票的時候是開票以後我就在牆壁上計票我們光是要貼那些票你根本就沒地方貼你怎麼貼到哪裡貼到天花板你也沒得貼還有一個我在開票的時候我還要去講說這是嘉義縣的某某議員的選票還是說村議長的選票那這是高雄的選票"},{"start":2478.326,"end":2506.473,"text":"如果假設我現在 我現在說這一個對不起 齊凱我說張齊凱一票萬一這所有種類裡的張齊凱 蔡齊安 整大堆我還要去看是哪一縣市的張齊凱那根本你做不到的事情而且會亂掉會亂掉 這是一個開票還有一個你去投票領票的時候本來假設我們這個票平常如果不不再去投票沒有實施 沒有移轉投票的話我們可能只有六張票 七張票"},{"start":2507.557,"end":2534.689,"text":"可是現在你把移轉的全國移轉過來以後光是那個領票的桌子排了有多少票你怎麼去領票你就會產生混亂這根本就沒辦法做的事情還有一個我們現在講說移轉投票這個是等於全國的物流因為你選票是在移動你選票在移動那光是你選票的運送過程你還必須要警察人員去跟隨"},{"start":2537.203,"end":2550.317,"text":"人力物力的影響非常大還有一個我們說以台北市跟新北市跟金馬地區為例這些外來人口特別多"},{"start":2551.738,"end":2571.437,"text":"那這裡就變成說大部分的人在這個都會區那移轉投票到這個都會區來勢必會造成一百零七年邊領票邊投票那個時間啊以我們這樣一估的移轉投票我那開到隔天的清晨這個六點你都開不完了"},{"start":2572.452,"end":2586.252,"text":"都開不完還有一個金馬地區各位不要忘了台商他的移轉投票他一定透過小金門也許從那邊比較近那我們講說我們以我們統計以金門的這個選票才才這個12萬人"},{"start":2589.578,"end":2615.99,"text":"連江的選票才一萬一千多如果台商不要移多少一個兩三萬過來他們就掛掉了因為他們的工作人員只有兩個三個在那邊他的人力的招募就有問題所以這個我們都必須要去考量執行變當然政策變你說移轉投票當然好這個我們減少社會成本這個都OK但是你要考慮選務的可行性如果選務不可行再好的法令"},{"start":2617.19,"end":2643.347,"text":"都跟空中樓格一樣沒有意義所以我們必須要考慮到這個實際執行片所以為什麼一直我們中選會的立場就是說能不能先公投再來選舉公投先來試看看那因為至少它是一個全國性的選區就好像總統選舉它是全國選區如果總統選舉或者是這個全國公投那它要實施移轉投票這個OK 這沒問題但偏偏我們的這個選舉都是合併選舉"},{"start":2646.67,"end":2655.48,"text":"比如說總統選舉跟立法會合併那他的選票就有多少就總統選票一種這個區議會74種原民的有兩種政黨票有一種加起來77種那77種全國在移動"},{"start":2663.739,"end":2687.912,"text":"簽過再移動那你說選務他會不會亂 肯定亂那亂的結果就可能影響到選舉的公正性他選舉結果就可能因為選務出了錯了那各位也許說那是你選務問題這不是選務問題就像我剛剛講選務它這個極限性吧你再教了他都總是有他的極限就算是機器你為了他帶多資料他還會掛掉啊"},{"start":2688.712,"end":2714.639,"text":"所以各位委員一定要考慮到執行面如果不可行的話不要貿然去這個推動不在即讓我們從公投先試看看公投走了沒有問題了或哪些需要改善的改善完了以後我們再來做人的選舉那先從移轉的再到其他方式我想這個是我們這個先會一貫的立場我們不希望吃緊都破碗"},{"start":2715.407,"end":2735.094,"text":"到時候不然會走路要耳背我覺得這個是很危險的事情我想這是我們這個中選會的這個意見好 謝謝 謝謝吳代理委員那接下來還有沒有其他黨團的委員要再發表高見好 那個好 那我們進行第二輪的討論來 請張綺凱委員"},{"start":2738.251,"end":2746.115,"text":"謝謝吳代理主委的體貼張啟凱這個名字我到目前只看過一次了不是蔡啟阿妹啟動的啟 沒的這個啟真正有候選人是蔡啟阿妹你們事先應該完成作業這個不會是問題啦那我剛剛看你的這個說明你對政策面是沒有意見嘛 對不對那講的是技術面跟執行我剛剛就舉的例子啦"},{"start":2759.554,"end":2781.027,"text":"日本在1998年日本人口應該比我們多很多吧我們還講我們科技比他進步為什麼技術面這個是做不到的連我剛剛都特別提醒了連印尼都在做耶印尼已經實施了12年耶印尼的科技跟他們選委會的水準比起來我們的選委會數值應該很高吧有比他們差嗎"},{"start":2782.228,"end":2793.23,"text":"我是覺得既然政策面定了不要妄自菲薄我覺得我們的中選會跟各個縣市的這個選委會的人員數值是高的經驗也非常非常豐富只要"},{"start":2795.717,"end":2824.397,"text":"用心去做然後事先規劃好我認為沒有問題甚至我們要幫他們熱烈鼓掌感謝他們長久的經驗跟他們的這個素質是很高的那另外剛剛民進黨也提到說這個法案沒有經過討論我要提醒這個陳委員其實我民國七十兩年的早期犯例這個案子以前民進黨都提過好多好多民進黨立法院提過你去翻一下最近這三四十年來這個案子非常非常的多包括你們剛特別一開始在講什麼"},{"start":2825.936,"end":2845.401,"text":"有到對岸去投票的你們對這個案子到目前為止我看民進黨發言最多的就是在講說大陸的民眾會台商或者什麼在大陸去的人會回來灌票這個案子就清清楚楚我們已經澄清了五六次你每次都來講是大陸人民這次就是很清楚這個是國內的移轉投票"},{"start":2846.661,"end":2867.519,"text":"只有台澎金馬事實上這個也是回應剛剛吳代理主委他的範圍就是限縮的非常非常小的啦我相信只要是有心有心 當然你提了一個方案你說從公投開始來做啦這或許是一個考慮的方案不過我相信依照我們的經驗依照我們的素質台灣的水準要實施這個國內移轉投票應該是沒有問題的好 謝謝張祺凱委員那不曉得其他黨團的代表還有沒有要發言的"},{"start":2876.636,"end":2900.196,"text":"好來請民進黨黨團的代表鍾嘉斌鍾委員謝謝主席主席辛苦了飛行幾十個小時那我們今天又連續開三場的協商很敬佩那因此呢今天我們的第一個題一個協商的主題是不在即投票的叫休選罷法簡單講那選罷法就跟任何比賽的遊戲規則一樣它必然是要是中性的"},{"start":2900.876,"end":2928.082,"text":"那選務工作人員他必然是中立的而選務的工作他就像接生婆就像助產室一樣他不能夠改變出生者的性別他只求能夠順利的生產完成分娩的過程我想剛剛代理主委他所表述的就是選務工作的本質中性 中立不會對結果產生影響"},{"start":2929.022,"end":2943.789,"text":"但是剛剛代理主委憂心忡忡就是說什麼情況之下會造成生產的結果不順利選舉的結果沒辦法順利的誕生這個選務工作自為重要所以有時候"},{"start":2945.66,"end":2960.864,"text":"胎兒的健康沒問題母體也很OK但是如果接生的過程造成了一些繁瑣的事情造成了難產那恐怕就不是選民所樂見的所以我覺得還是要回歸到選務的務實的考量"},{"start":2964.065,"end":2988.687,"text":"那剛剛張旗開委員提到說我們的提案很多樣嘛 沒有錯啊其實我們今天不是為了提案的內容的差異來這裡進行協商今天我們協商主要的成如就是我們國民黨的徐委員所說的因為包括他自己的提案都沒有在委員會可以來進行討論那我們看了一下這麼多的提案真的耶"},{"start":2990,"end":3007.81,"text":"有針對選總統副總統的有針對立委的有針對地方公職人員的又針對公投的那麼以徐委員的而立呢他是總統副總統立法委員和全國性的公投跟本案的含色範圍很接近因為本案呢還有一個地方選舉"},{"start":3009.051,"end":3027.644,"text":"那也就是說每個委員的提案他指稱的選舉項目不一樣含釋的範圍多寡不一樣那這樣的一個複雜多元的提案老實說不是在協商就我們有限的時間跟人員在進行溝通而是呢協商啊其實是在委員會討論"},{"start":3029.545,"end":3057.416,"text":"有一個大致的眉目方向後凝聚到少數的幾個爭點我們出了委員會到協商的地方這樣的協商才會有效率如果連在委員會這麼多版本的樣式的提案都沒有經過討論然後我們也不曉得爭點是那麼發散就像張七號委員認為說有人的指責民主黨的版本是什麼海外投票我也不曉得他指涉的是哪一個人的提議講的是哪一個版本"},{"start":3057.816,"end":3081.471,"text":"因為版本這麼多我們怎麼知道民眾黨的版本跟其他版本有哪些的差異真的沒有經過委員的審查這些版本之間的差異我們無從了解也是剛剛呢代理主委說到說我才知道原來我們從小到大習慣的開票模式會在牆上貼計票單每張計票單就代表一項選舉但是如果全國"},{"start":3082.881,"end":3090.698,"text":"不在籍投票可以在一個投開票手同時的話有8000項的選舉的項目那個組合排列組合有8000項"},{"start":3092.878,"end":3121.656,"text":"投開票所怎麼去張貼這個計票單那更不要說領票要怎麼去領那想到這些大家就頭皮發麻那我想今天主席常常說全國人民都在看我不曉得這個協商的轉播有沒有關心公共事務的選民在看但是如果他有在看的話他就理解到今天我們討論的是一個有投票經驗的人如果年紀較長的經歷過那麼多次的投票他都能夠理解我們代理主委所說的那種樣貌"},{"start":3122.597,"end":3145.051,"text":"那種情況那如果連一般的選民都可以理解代理主委所說的那一種多元複雜的情況那我們立法院是不是更該負責任的來好好的討論呢所以我其實在立場上是接近徐委員的立場就是國民黨認為這些提案呢我們知道了那未來我們可以有更充裕的時間"},{"start":3146.573,"end":3162.793,"text":"讓社會更多的了解來進行討論畢竟選舉啊 知識體大那麼其實我也了解到今天這個提案的民眾黨黨團的成員或許有時間的緊迫感可能陳昭志委員比較沒有啦但是我們都知道"},{"start":3163.574,"end":3178.564,"text":"鐵打的銀杖流水的兵啊黨團每一個民進黨每一個黨團包括民進黨在內我們都相信每個政黨提出的不管是區域立委還是部分區的委員區議員能夠當選進入到立法院來服務的都是非常優秀的"},{"start":3179.204,"end":3203.205,"text":"不分區的委員能夠進入名單的得到選民的 肯認的都是合格的所以我是建議民眾黨黨團或許不要給自己那麼大的時間壓力縱使我們的會期我們下個會期再下個會期我們還有時間討論因為提案是屆期才不連續我們這些提案在本屆2028年之前我們都有機會討論那麼2026的選舉將屆"},{"start":3207.388,"end":3227.131,"text":"如果我們在這個時候去討論這個議題難免會讓現在的參選人有些憂慮就像當年的丁守中委員一樣他參選台北市長後來因為公投跟地方選舉一起舉辦他還去申請司法的去查驗票我們不像他遺憾的情形在發生所以在這裡誠懇的呼應"},{"start":3227.952,"end":3251.483,"text":"我們國民黨黨團的意見也呼籲我們民眾黨黨團不要有時間壓力 屆期不連續這麼多的提案回歸到委員會好好的來審查我相信全國的民眾都願意能夠將我們的選舉規則越修越完善選務工作越做越順利我想選務工作絕對不要因為個案"},{"start":3252.603,"end":3277.718,"text":"因為一些政黨個別的考量因為選務是中立的選務的規則是中性的我再次的提出這些規則的修改我們都要非常的慎重以上建議好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員請問在場的委員還有沒有人有意見我們照順序應該先給中國國民黨的來 請徐委員"},{"start":3280.469,"end":3302.337,"text":"謝謝主席我想剛剛吳代理主委在講到就說有關我們的移轉投票大概吳代理主委已經有講出大概800個難處好像非常的困難不是我是說他把各種各樣8000多個那是他說有不同的選項但是我是覺得站在中選會的立場如果說移轉投票這麼困難的話那為什麼全國性公投你也可以處理呢"},{"start":3308.599,"end":3329.836,"text":"所以既然是全國性的公投可以處理有關總統副總統還有中央性的這個相關的選舉我覺得應該也都有辦法去克服所以如果針對這點的話我想很多事情其實當然需要我們全部人員大家共同來配合還有一些行政機關的調整但是我覺得也不能說因為難就不做"},{"start":3332.818,"end":3349.906,"text":"我有提案所以我剛剛講的就是總統副總統中央跟全國性公投這是我的提案所以我覺得既然全國性公投可以那總統副總統中央相關的也可以所以說其實這個部分的話我想不能因為說覺得困難而不做了而是應該要想辦法去突破困難"},{"start":3354.208,"end":3370.476,"text":"當然我想國民黨團其實一向就是秉持著當然要提升公民的參政跟保障人民投票的權利所以當然目前看起來我想還要繼續的協商才能取得一個共識我們也希望說當然相關的疑慮釐清之後我們再來推動 謝謝好 謝謝徐宇貞委員那個是不是請菜場的委員就是別人發言的時候還是尊重一下"},{"start":3384.729,"end":3390.792,"text":"別人發言的時候還是尊重一下啦這個是最起碼的規則嘛對不對那你如果要這樣子繼續干擾會議下去的話那這個協商要怎麼繼續進行呢各黨團的代表喔"},{"start":3412.947,"end":3426.497,"text":"都表示過意見了大家沒有辦法取得共識啊顯然協商啊 就不成立好 那我們的協商沒有辦法取得結論那後續就按照立法院相關的議事規則處理那這一場的協商到此為止 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167108","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167108","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b78dbf1d8505ac72a14f52a2c5903c8a6df79df2e988dc3d19ac1d408aac44313bca61c2a45653685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"10:15:28 - 10:25:09","影片長度":"00:09:41","會議時間":"2026-01-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場）（事由：第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場））","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-15","start_time":"2026-01-15T10:15:28+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-15T10:25:09+08:00","duration":581,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.84096875,"end":1.4653437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.14034375,"end":8.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.953468750000003,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.302843750000001,"end":16.230968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.10846875,"end":20.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.07409375,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.980968750000002,"end":23.925968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.22971875,"end":26.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.68909375,"end":29.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.38471875,"end":38.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.45096875,"end":42.471593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.60659375,"end":47.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.73221875,"end":50.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.314093750000005,"end":54.047843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.38096875,"end":58.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.907843750000005,"end":62.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.244718750000004,"end":64.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.83096875000001,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.83909375,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.13721875,"end":83.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.32159375,"end":90.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.61596875000001,"end":98.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.47971875,"end":100.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.68596875,"end":104.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.28846875,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.17409375000001,"end":112.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.00909375,"end":115.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.96221875,"end":121.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.51409375,"end":124.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.71596875,"end":132.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.00596875000002,"end":133.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.20409375,"end":135.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.62159375000002,"end":139.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.78971875000002,"end":143.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.19409375,"end":159.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.42784375000002,"end":163.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.42721875,"end":166.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.36346875,"end":169.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.72596875000002,"end":177.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.55159375000002,"end":180.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.72846875000002,"end":186.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.38159375,"end":190.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.20784375000002,"end":192.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.73909375000002,"end":196.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.65846875000003,"end":206.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.17159375,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.33846875,"end":222.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.03409375,"end":224.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.59909375,"end":230.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.94846875000002,"end":232.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.12534375,"end":236.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.51284375,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.30096875,"end":243.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.08971875,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.21096875,"end":261.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.26846875,"end":263.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.58034375,"end":268.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.11971875,"end":273.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.35096875,"end":281.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.55221875,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.30721875,"end":288.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.31909375000004,"end":294.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.09034375000005,"end":297.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.82409375000003,"end":300.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.48596875000004,"end":303.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.01721875000004,"end":306.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.43034375,"end":309.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.44659375000003,"end":319.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.81221875,"end":321.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.90471875000003,"end":326.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.93346875000003,"end":331.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.57409375000003,"end":333.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.97034375000004,"end":337.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.25659375000004,"end":347.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.62221875,"end":349.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.79909375,"end":351.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.31784375,"end":357.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.20284375,"end":365.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.40409375,"end":369.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.45409375,"end":373.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.99784375,"end":376.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.35596875000005,"end":380.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.86596875000004,"end":386.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.67096875000004,"end":403.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.83284375000005,"end":406.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.34284375000004,"end":412.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.09721875,"end":414.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.76346875,"end":420.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.12971875000005,"end":429.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.39409375,"end":441.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.34596875000005,"end":448.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.80471875,"end":452.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.43284375,"end":453.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.44096875,"end":457.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.68096875000003,"end":460.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.16159375,"end":466.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.74284375,"end":473.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.93159375000005,"end":478.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.53409375,"end":483.46596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.17034375000003,"end":490.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.89096875,"end":494.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.91971875,"end":504.52596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.69471875000005,"end":516.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.2834687500001,"end":522.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.83534375,"end":535.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.94721875,"end":567.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.0772187499999,"end":570.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.9797187500001,"end":575.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.9409687500001,"end":580.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.4297187500001,"end":581.0203437499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.902,"end":29.654,"text":"主席 專家學者們各位同事 各位媒體朋友以及關心台灣民主憲政的每一位夥伴台灣今天正在經歷一場由現任總統所主導的憲政危機憲法是國家跟人民之間的權責約束也可以說就是國家跟人民的契約每一個國人都要遵守"},{"start":31.471,"end":53.646,"text":"身為國家元首更是負有最高強度盡忠職守的憲法義務但是當總統所屬的政黨成為國會的少數的時候很遺憾的總統沒有選擇溝通卻是選擇對抗首創國家憲政史上的一個惡例"},{"start":55.581,"end":74.732,"text":"事實上立法院自第十一屆開議以來行政院除了違法 違三讀通過的條例 編列預算還發生行政院 行政院長不附屬已經復議 復議失敗的法案而總統卻竟表贊同"},{"start":76.209,"end":104.514,"text":"在民主法治社會所有的公民都非常清楚每一部法案的成立不是個人的好惡而是取決於法案內容是否符合法治國的原則跟憲法的規範對於是否合憲由於憲法法庭應該由憲法法庭做最終的判斷不是由總統盡致宣告為先或默許行政院長以不附屬的方式"},{"start":107.535,"end":123.829,"text":"踐踏民意代表所提出的一個法律也就是只有憲法法庭才能夠做最終的判斷才能夠對法律做出到底是合憲或違憲的一個判斷總統跟行政院長完全沒有這個權利"},{"start":125.762,"end":142.885,"text":"但是總統跟行政院長的作為充分顯示現任的總統不只是企圖削弱國會的立法權更是踐踏憲法所保障的司法獨立掠奪原本只屬於大法官的憲政裁判權"},{"start":144.549,"end":168.276,"text":"針對以下事由賴清德總統對立法院三讀通過經行政院附議失敗的財政收支劃分法透過行政院長以不附屬的方式來配合有違憲失職台灣民眾黨上個月提出了彈劾案獲得跨黨派59位立委的連署面對這樣專政的政府作為最高的民意機關"},{"start":169.83,"end":191.827,"text":"我們有義務守護台灣人民的權利我們更有義務要喚醒總統不要成為破壞憲政的兇手去年11月14日立法院依法三讀通過修正財政收支劃分法行政院提出復議之後立法院已經再次表決維持原決議"},{"start":193.923,"end":217.748,"text":"並依程序知請總統公佈那麼依照憲法第72條總統必須在10日內公佈這是憲法賦予總統的義務不是建議 更不是參考總統沒有權力拒絕履行程序性的義務然而 遺憾的賴總統沒有依循憲法形式反而在法律三讀通過之後"},{"start":219.4,"end":243.593,"text":"召集了執政黨立委在黨中央開辯當會密謀討論要以不附屬或是附屬後不執行的方式來決定法律要不要執行這是赤裸裸的踐踏民主法治而台灣的民主憲政一再被挑戰台灣民眾黨立院黨團要向賴政府表達最嚴正的抗議此外"},{"start":245.151,"end":261.412,"text":"附屬制度在憲政制度的設計上它本來是行政院長用來制衡總統權力的工具是行政院對立法院負責的一個機制絕對不是行政院用來否決國會三讀法律的手段"},{"start":262.333,"end":287.836,"text":"宪法非常清楚的规定行政院如果认为国会通过的法律至暗难行可以提出复议但复议失败之后呢就必须接受立法院的决议否则复议制度还有什么意义呢行政院干脆不要复议了直接用不附属的方式让法律消失好了如果今天才划法可以被选择性的不公布那么明天是不是牢记法"},{"start":289.383,"end":308.842,"text":"公投法甚至任何法律都可能因為總統不喜歡就被擱置了呢如此立法院三讀的意義是什麼人民選出的立委還有實質的權利嗎如果接受這樣的做法代表台灣不再是法治國家而是因人設置的人治國家"},{"start":310.529,"end":325.939,"text":"行政院和總統向社會大眾一再透過話語權宣稱有些法律違憲有損國家安全破壞財政紀律本席要再強調一次是否違背憲法從來不是行政權說了算"},{"start":327,"end":348.9,"text":"如果行政院可以自行判定那麼憲法法庭存在的意義是什麼大法官存在的意義是什麼權力分立的核心原則就是禁止擴權任何機關都不能夠以削弱其他機關為代價來擴張自己的權力但是現在立法院被架空了司法權被取代了"},{"start":349.901,"end":376.539,"text":"所有的執行判決否決都集中在一黨一人身上這不是民主這是走向獨裁有人說憲法法庭是因為暫時無法審理所以行政部門可以自行判斷但真正的事實是造成憲法法庭空轉的就是總統自己提名大法官是總統的憲法職責那麼立法院行使同意權是一個制衡"},{"start":377.418,"end":402.846,"text":"立法院不同意總統就必須重新提名啊不能用法庭不能運作為藉口來否決國會通過的法律這就像是他把鑰匙先丟掉了然後說我門打不開我必須破門而入這真的是執政黨毫無忌憚的一個以蠻橫凌駕憲政一百多年前袁世凱就是用穩定國家"},{"start":403.906,"end":414.569,"text":"避免内乱的民意逐步削弱议会消灭反对的声音但是后来人民发现了他夺走的不是个人的权利而是所有人的未来"},{"start":415.854,"end":440.475,"text":"民主或許不會一夕被奪走但是一旦被侵蝕了步步都可能造成無法逆轉的後果這是歷史給我們的警訊我們今天在台灣看到的其實正是類似的危機總統領導的行政團隊企圖架空立法院僭越司法權已經嚴重破壞憲法制度的底線過去多年來我陪著民進黨"},{"start":441.756,"end":453.465,"text":"從民進黨還沒有出生到成熟長大從街頭運動到帶領主要的民間社團民進黨的前輩啟發我對民主的認知就是政黨政治"},{"start":454.52,"end":478.187,"text":"有監督有制衡它的基礎就是憲政法治今日賴總統縱容執政黨利用龐大的行政資源製造社會對立消耗國力曾幾何時台灣人民在公開場合談論政治會懷著被批判的恐懼不敢在社群團體暢談自己的理想跟政治信念請問民進黨你還有資格紀念鄭南榮嗎"},{"start":485.539,"end":494.224,"text":"總統沒有責任嗎這是號稱民主進步的政黨主席的領導風格嗎已經執政十年的民主進步黨不用檢討嗎"},{"start":495.984,"end":516.3,"text":"很遺憾的即使已經升為國家的總統賴總統依然擺脫不了民進黨黨主席的一個思維以黨領政的風格本席要再次重申台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨對第十六屆總統賴清德所提出的彈劾案是憲法賦予立法機關的最後一道防線"},{"start":517.501,"end":534.435,"text":"這是對賴總統的憲政警示也是多數人民最嚴正的忠告總統再大也大不過憲法權力再強也強不過人民總統再大也大不過憲法權力再強也強不過人民如果我們選擇沉默"},{"start":536.016,"end":553.858,"text":"接受總統選擇性的遵守憲法那麼明天後天每一條法律都可以面臨相同的對待我們做這個決定不是為了政黨利益而是為了國家與人民我們要告訴掌權者人民才是國家的主人台灣的民主得來不易啊"},{"start":554.398,"end":579.953,"text":"不能讓他在看似合法 實則 專斷的操作上慢慢消失台灣需要的是尊重憲法 尊重國會 尊重人民的政府而不是走向集權之路的政府請記得憲法第二條國家的主權屬於國民全體不是任何政黨 也不是總統個人台灣的所有權狀不在執政黨手上 也不在總統個人的手上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167109","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167109","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b78dbf1d8505ac720ee2302cb5ce5bbe6df79df2e988dc3d19ac1d408aac4431f2364352bfb7cb845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:25:17 - 10:36:14","影片長度":"00:10:57","會議時間":"2026-01-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場）（事由：第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場））","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-15","start_time":"2026-01-15T10:25:17+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-15T10:36:14+08:00","duration":657,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.25409375,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":9.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.219093750000003,"end":70.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.37846875000001,"end":72.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.81284375,"end":83.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.79846875000001,"end":85.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.04284375,"end":93.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.76721875000001,"end":104.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.14534375000001,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.40221875,"end":131.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.26784375,"end":136.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.27096875,"end":143.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.82284375,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.00346875,"end":154.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.82534375,"end":155.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.58471875,"end":163.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.00534375,"end":169.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.53596875000002,"end":172.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.62846875000002,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.79159375,"end":185.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.82471875000002,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.69221875000002,"end":199.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.62409375000001,"end":201.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.34971875000002,"end":203.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.78784375,"end":208.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.10784375,"end":213.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.12409375000001,"end":220.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.67159375000003,"end":223.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.52346875,"end":227.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.87721875000003,"end":241.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.10284375,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.59159375000002,"end":250.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.81034375000002,"end":256.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.66159375,"end":261.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.29784375,"end":268.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.52034375,"end":274.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.15659375,"end":284.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.20159375000003,"end":293.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.80784375,"end":303.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.33784375000005,"end":327.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.60409375,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.18159375000005,"end":333.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.47659375,"end":335.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.68721875,"end":337.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.20596875,"end":345.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.81659375000004,"end":353.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.91659375,"end":356.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.58284375,"end":380.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.25409375000004,"end":392.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.19721875000005,"end":396.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.77471875000003,"end":399.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.79534375000003,"end":404.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.25034375,"end":407.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.20346875,"end":410.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.49846875000003,"end":411.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.56971875000005,"end":423.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.84659375,"end":430.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.18721875,"end":432.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.94221875000005,"end":438.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.30409375000005,"end":440.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.90721875,"end":444.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.29909375000005,"end":457.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.35159375,"end":466.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.24909375000004,"end":469.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.35409375,"end":473.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.48846875000004,"end":478.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.78721875,"end":493.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.92846875000004,"end":503.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.03221875,"end":510.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.46159375,"end":526.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.5347187500001,"end":529.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.01971875,"end":533.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.5847187500001,"end":535.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.8459687500001,"end":555.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.56846875,"end":562.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.77846875,"end":571.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.61659375,"end":577.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.8603437500001,"end":583.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.58096875,"end":585.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.0828437499999,"end":594.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.1697187500001,"end":611.4965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.30659375,"end":616.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.5165937500001,"end":623.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.24971875,"end":625.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.7390937499999,"end":628.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.8272187499999,"end":637.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.6697187500001,"end":651.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.35534375,"end":653.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.73471875,"end":658.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.1897187500001,"end":658.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.286,"end":25.436,"text":"好 主席今天所與會的各位學者專家在場各位媒體記者先生女士朋友我想今天我們希望說這樣子的一個公聽會大家也邀請了學者也邀請了專家我們是希望說是針對這個我們的這個今天這個所謂彈劾案的這個憲法的相關的法理來進行討論不過剛才我整場聽下來比較像是一個政論節目那這個部分我比較感到遺憾"},{"start":33.079,"end":52.165,"text":"我想在我開始討論這個憲政問題之前,我首先跟大家一起齊文共賞。大家來看看這個畫面上,秀出的是這次我們立法院議案關係文書,由本院委員傅坤祺、羅志強、林佩祥、黃國昌等60人所提出來的這個說話。今天我們為什麼開這個公聽會,就是因為這篇齊文。"},{"start":53.985,"end":82.948,"text":"那我們來看這篇檄文他這裡面說簡單講他要彈劾賴清德總統他所掳列的大概這麼多大一篇掳列大概就是六個理由第一個理由指揮授意行政院長左榮泰濫編預算這個部分第一個指揮授意這個部分你們提出指控的你們要有負舉證責任這個哪裡他在用什麼方式指揮授意第二"},{"start":84.108,"end":106.588,"text":"編列預算是行政院專屬的權利依照憲法第59條由行政院編列預算不管他怎麼編編列預算就是行政院的權利至於他預算編得好或不好你同意或不同意那是立法院的權利立法院的審查依照憲法第63條立法院就審查你覺得他爛編你就刪除啊你覺得他爛編你就全部凍結啊"},{"start":108.462,"end":136.328,"text":"那你今天因為這個你今天把這個拿來當作一個彈劾那你要彈劾你再怎麼樣你也說預算是行政院長編的你也來對付行政院長啊結果你說用這個理由你來彈劾總統這個是這篇文章的第一期第二期這個說第二個理由他說因為造謠抹黑從來彈劾的理由都是看總統做什麼事而不是看那個人說什麼話"},{"start":138.342,"end":162.865,"text":"照謠抹黑一樣啊 你要舉證啊 他照了什麼謠 抹了什麼黑沒有 就這四個字然後再來用言論 意思說總統講什麼話 所以我們要來彈劾他這個是第二期 第三期利用司法迫害一級這個我們檢察官依照職權追訴犯罪法院他依照職權發現真實進行什麼依法審判"},{"start":164.376,"end":184.879,"text":"這個你說用司法迫害異己舉證啊 拿來說在講啊這個目前第四個這個發動大惡霸摧毀臺灣民主什麼時候人民行使依法行使選舉罷免創制 覆決結果要來彈劾總統這個邏輯我完全不懂"},{"start":185.885,"end":212.897,"text":"人民行使依法行使啊它是違法行使的罷免嗎不是依法行使選舉罷免創制複決你以此為理由來罷免總統第五放任台積電赴美投資各位台積電赴美投資所以要彈劾賴清德這個是不是這篇文章的第五期那為什麼鴻海去投資中國那也要來罷免賴清德好了"},{"start":214.715,"end":227.002,"text":"這個一個民間公司的投資行為你拿來當作罷免總統的理由這些都不值一審啦我剛講這些都不值一審真正關鍵的是我們今天希望討論的第六個理由"},{"start":227.947,"end":256.488,"text":"你們認為說行政院長以不附屬為由來針對這個才化法行政院長不附屬這才是今天大概是最重要的關鍵剛剛大家談的有50%集中在這個議題上面所以我要來談一談這個所謂的不附屬這個問題退一萬步講啦就算這個是理由那也是行政院長不附屬啊行政院長不附屬按照憲法總統就不能公佈啊"},{"start":257.928,"end":283.849,"text":"所以總統不但沒有違憲而且他是完全是合憲的啊那至於行政院長不附屬你說行政院長不附屬違不違憲我們現在才討論但就算他違憲你們也用憲法的手段來處理行政院長啊怎麼會來彈劾總統呢這個又是這篇文章的第六集那我們來談這個所謂的附屬權剛剛也有學者提到"},{"start":285.43,"end":309.692,"text":"當初中華民國憲法有關於這個我先看這邊很多政治學的教授還有我自己的老師都在這裡這個當初所謂政治學大學第一課打開David Easton的政治學第一課第一個圖這是input output第二個圖這是什麼這是權力分立三個權力check and balance行政 立法 司法三個權力它各有各的"},{"start":310.473,"end":335.448,"text":"我們看這每一個權力之間都有兩個箭頭一個是我制衡你的權力一個是你制衡我的權力三權分立美國的也是這樣日本的也是這樣中華民國比較特別五權但是我們在談中華民國的憲法設計他還是基本上在三權之間他還是彼此有互相制衡的權力這個是憲法制度這最基本的權力分立制度的原理那我國因為"},{"start":336.741,"end":355.783,"text":"原本最初當初的中華民國憲法本文由張君邁他所起草的中華民國憲法本文他其實整個是傾向內閣制的也就是剛剛大家所講的原本我們憲法所規定的行政院長附屬權原本是用來制衡總統的沒有錯當初設計憲法本文的時候"},{"start":356.65,"end":371.285,"text":"他是來制衡總統的他代表著內閣制很重要的一個精神這是當初我們中華民國憲法本文設計的時候但是蔣介石當總統他不甘願啊所以他用動員刊亂時期臨時條款把他整個變成總統制我們中華民國憲政體制上除了蔣經國當行政院長以外沒有內閣制過"},{"start":384.049,"end":403.816,"text":"當初原本附屬權是屬於是因為當初的行政院長必須經過立法院同意所以他具有強大的內閣制精神這是憲法本文但是我們在修憲的時候把這個行政院長"},{"start":405.322,"end":431.964,"text":"必須經立法院同意我們把它拿掉了拿掉了我們在這個哪一年修憲修憲的時候把這個行政院長任命行政院長必須經過立法院同意拿掉了使得我們憲法中修條文之後的內閣制精神整個降低了行政院長基本上變成總統任命所以因為他的權力來源來自總統所以行政院長沒有什麼制衡總統這回事的"},{"start":433.064,"end":457.384,"text":"所以如果附屬權理論上是制衡總統的話那時候附屬權就應該全部拿掉了但是我們留著我們不是全部保留喔我們再修憲一次當年為了這個你說第一個拒絕附屬的行政院長是左翁派嗎 不是第一個拒絕附屬的行政院長是郝柏春他當年針對蔣仲林的人事案他拒絕附屬"},{"start":459.44,"end":477.861,"text":"所以因為好柏村的拒絕附屬因此我們又進行修憲不是我們 是那時候國民黨主導的修憲又把這個針對人事案的附屬權拿掉部分針對人事案的附屬權把它拿掉就是因為好柏村拒絕附屬"},{"start":479.861,"end":503.389,"text":"拿掉但是他沒有把整個附屬權拿掉他其他的附屬法律案的附屬權他依然保留在憲法裡面這個是什麼這個是憲法有意的沉默他拿掉了人事同意人事的附屬權獨留法律案的附屬權表示這個附屬權是存在而且有價值有意義的在在徵修條文修憲之後的體制依然是重要的權利"},{"start":505.103,"end":526.888,"text":"所以我們今天爭論的意思就是說附屬權到底是一個義務就中華民國法律通過之後你就一定要附屬就一定要公佈這是一種看法這就是你們今天今天這個國民黨跟民眾黨的看法另外一個看法認為附屬權不是他是一個權利他是一個行政院長的權限所以他會規定在憲法裡面那"},{"start":531.432,"end":553.438,"text":"這個東西有爭議理論上那到底他可不可以不附屬理論上這樣子的憲政爭議應該由誰來做最後的判定他到底可不可以其實是憲法法院照體制走就是憲法法院剛大家都講說憲法法院才有終極判決的理由剛才大家這麼多人在那邊講說賴清德違憲 賴清德明顯違憲"},{"start":556.616,"end":582.733,"text":"那你們也沒有權利講賴清德違憲啊只有憲法法院可以說賴清德違憲但是我們中華民國這部體制經過七次修憲拼裝之後本來雖然不好騎但是也是一台滿好騎還是可以走的腳踏車結果有兩個惡棍一個叫國民黨一個叫民眾黨拿一根鐵棍從車輪插進去這腳踏車翻車了這根鐵棍是什麼就是憲法訴訟法癱瘓憲法法庭因為國民黨"},{"start":586.246,"end":610.921,"text":"民眾黨癱瘓的憲法法庭使得現在所有的這些憲政爭議你通通變成沒有得到最終終局解決的可能性剛才所有學者我看張其祿教授是我很好的朋友他講的很有道理啊他說現在的這個總統制這個是憲法制度是有問題的這樣子的設計他大概整篇都講我們憲法制度有很大的問題"},{"start":612.746,"end":636.727,"text":"憲法制度有很大的問題所以要罷免總統所以要彈劾總統這個是什麼邏輯因為我們的憲法制度設計有問題所以我們要來彈劾賴清德我在這裡講這麼多但是最重要是我們要回歸到最後憲政體制的設計在場都是學者大家也都是在教人子弟的"},{"start":637.865,"end":658.359,"text":"都是在教人子弟的有關於憲法這樣子相關的權限我剛剛所講的通通都是就是權力制衡check and balance裡面附屬權到底是不是一個行政權對立法權的一個制衡的權利也許憲政上有爭議但是終局應該是被你們癱瘓的憲法法庭以上"}]}},{"id":"17200","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17200","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a6096e13f430e0f158c2bdae56b7a60aa52c0a219bd209750d2dab6b82d7602c416a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場）（事由：第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場））","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-15T08:31:07+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-15T11:47:00+08:00","duration":11753,"影片長度":"03:15:53","委員發言時間":"08:31:07 - 11:47:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1741.14284375,"end":1767.1978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1767.3497187500002,"end":1774.1503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1775.0953437500002,"end":1784.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1784.9840937500003,"end":1790.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1790.7384687500003,"end":1790.9915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1791.7172187500003,"end":1792.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1793.03346875,"end":1795.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1796.6278437500002,"end":1797.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1798.9059687500003,"end":1813.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1814.4815937500002,"end":1820.2190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1820.3878437500002,"end":1821.7715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1822.5140937500003,"end":1825.8553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1826.7328437500003,"end":1859.4703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1859.95971875,"end":1864.5665937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1865.0559687500001,"end":1865.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1865.7478437500001,"end":1880.7159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1881.2728437500002,"end":1887.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1888.0565937500003,"end":1888.5628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1889.2884687500002,"end":1897.8609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1898.06346875,"end":1906.5684687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1909.3528437500001,"end":1910.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1910.71971875,"end":1911.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1911.5465937500003,"end":1929.4847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1929.9572187500003,"end":1937.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1938.3947187500003,"end":1939.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1939.6265937500002,"end":1945.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1946.0053437500003,"end":1959.7247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1960.9903437500002,"end":1969.2759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1969.6640937500001,"end":1976.5997187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1977.4772187500002,"end":1978.1353437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1978.3378437500003,"end":1987.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1987.9903437500002,"end":1997.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1997.7103437500002,"end":2008.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2010.1978437500002,"end":2020.4747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2020.7278437500001,"end":2022.8540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2023.6640937500001,"end":2041.9734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2042.7328437500003,"end":2048.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2048.9090937500005,"end":2052.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2052.68909375,"end":2059.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2060.87346875,"end":2065.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2065.5984687500004,"end":2078.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2079.41909375,"end":2087.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2087.8397187500004,"end":2091.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2092.14284375,"end":2095.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2095.41659375,"end":2098.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2099.26409375,"end":2105.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2105.35596875,"end":2107.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2108.3428437500006,"end":2117.7928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2118.5690937500003,"end":2120.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2120.1384687500004,"end":2120.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2120.71221875,"end":2139.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2139.5447187500004,"end":2145.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2146.4128437500003,"end":2156.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2157.17909375,"end":2160.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2161.0097187500005,"end":2163.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2164.6884687500005,"end":2168.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2168.51909375,"end":2169.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2169.2109687500006,"end":2169.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2169.95346875,"end":2176.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2176.1803437500002,"end":2179.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2179.70721875,"end":2192.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2192.2959687500006,"end":2197.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2198.5397187500002,"end":2200.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2200.9022187500004,"end":2202.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2202.67409375,"end":2211.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2212.51221875,"end":2216.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2217.55784375,"end":2227.2440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2227.91909375,"end":2243.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2243.83221875,"end":2255.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2255.52659375,"end":2257.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2257.9903437500006,"end":2263.4747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2264.3015937500004,"end":2268.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2268.90846875,"end":2291.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2291.8415937500004,"end":2293.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2293.4615937500002,"end":2297.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2297.54534375,"end":2301.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2302.9284687500003,"end":2313.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2313.2559687500006,"end":2323.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2324.6972187500005,"end":2329.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2330.0465937500003,"end":2337.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2338.2478437500004,"end":2343.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2343.4453437500006,"end":2349.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2350.22909375,"end":2351.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2351.49471875,"end":2355.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2356.2028437500003,"end":2358.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2358.90284375,"end":2362.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2362.58159375,"end":2362.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2363.35784375,"end":2368.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2369.0615937500006,"end":2373.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2373.97221875,"end":2380.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2381.0428437500004,"end":2400.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2400.71909375,"end":2403.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2403.7565937500003,"end":2405.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2405.66346875,"end":2415.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2415.9403437500005,"end":2432.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2432.6803437500002,"end":2438.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2439.6328437500006,"end":2457.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2457.55409375,"end":2461.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2461.23284375,"end":2467.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2468.2022187500006,"end":2516.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2517.59534375,"end":2522.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2522.8434687500003,"end":2522.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2525.64471875,"end":2526.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2526.57284375,"end":2530.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2531.51721875,"end":2532.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2533.13721875,"end":2537.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2537.87909375,"end":2542.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2542.51971875,"end":2546.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2546.70471875,"end":2548.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2548.67909375,"end":2550.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2550.97409375,"end":2558.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2558.9559687500005,"end":2567.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2567.78159375,"end":2572.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2572.9453437500006,"end":2573.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2573.9072187500005,"end":2576.7928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2577.0965937500005,"end":2579.3240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2580.18471875,"end":2580.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2581.5684687500006,"end":2586.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2586.9853437500005,"end":2589.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2590.2928437500004,"end":2594.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2595.03471875,"end":2605.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2605.80096875,"end":2620.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2621.05596875,"end":2629.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2629.8815937500003,"end":2632.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2633.00346875,"end":2638.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2638.65659375,"end":2644.4615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2644.8328437500004,"end":2650.6378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2651.3972187500003,"end":2652.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2653.84409375,"end":2662.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2662.9059687500003,"end":2672.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2673.4190937500007,"end":2676.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2676.8447187500005,"end":2679.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2680.11846875,"end":2685.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2685.72096875,"end":2697.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2698.02284375,"end":2700.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2700.38534375,"end":2705.0597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2705.54909375,"end":2710.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2711.03346875,"end":2714.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2714.6953437500006,"end":2745.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2745.88034375,"end":2760.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2760.76409375,"end":2779.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2779.69784375,"end":2781.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2781.9928437500002,"end":2798.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2799.50909375,"end":2820.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2820.92346875,"end":2827.9434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2828.5847187500003,"end":2829.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2830.1540937500004,"end":2834.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2834.2547187500004,"end":2843.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2844.36284375,"end":2873.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2873.47221875,"end":2965.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2965.96409375,"end":2976.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2977.0847187500003,"end":2977.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2978.4684687500003,"end":2981.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2981.8434687500003,"end":3012.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3013.09596875,"end":3017.4159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3018.29346875,"end":3022.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3022.86659375,"end":3023.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3024.5372187500006,"end":3044.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3044.97284375,"end":3090.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3091.37909375,"end":3094.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3095.2772187500004,"end":3101.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3102.34784375,"end":3128.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3129.1453437500004,"end":3131.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3131.7272187500002,"end":3131.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3131.76096875,"end":3131.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3131.94659375,"end":3131.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3131.96346875,"end":3137.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3139.23659375,"end":3152.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3152.44971875,"end":3157.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3158.3897187500006,"end":3161.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3162.1190937500005,"end":3170.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3170.99534375,"end":3172.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3173.0878437500005,"end":3179.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3179.31471875,"end":3181.7109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3181.96409375,"end":3189.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3189.7772187500004,"end":3196.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3197.9278437500006,"end":3218.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3219.40971875,"end":3223.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3224.3878437500007,"end":3227.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3227.77971875,"end":3235.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3236.2003437500007,"end":3238.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3238.7315937500007,"end":3246.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3247.0340937500005,"end":3263.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3264.2803437500006,"end":3267.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3268.1784687500003,"end":3274.7090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3275.2997187500005,"end":3279.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3279.67034375,"end":3289.8797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3290.70659375,"end":3296.4103437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3297.01784375,"end":3300.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3301.0509687500007,"end":3305.6915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3307.46346875,"end":3308.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3309.31971875,"end":3314.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3315.4453437500006,"end":3322.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3323.79846875,"end":3327.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3328.72596875,"end":3333.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3334.3622187500005,"end":3336.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3337.3828437500006,"end":3339.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3340.5047187500004,"end":3348.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3348.97596875,"end":3350.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3350.71409375,"end":3355.0509687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3355.4053437500006,"end":3357.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3357.97034375,"end":3375.2334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3375.9928437500002,"end":3379.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3379.7559687500006,"end":3389.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3390.25221875,"end":3398.2003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3398.4365937500006,"end":3405.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3406.11471875,"end":3408.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3410.3672187500006,"end":3422.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3423.5634687500005,"end":3426.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3426.7697187500007,"end":3430.1784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3430.6678437500004,"end":3434.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3434.75159375,"end":3441.1472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3441.72096875,"end":3448.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3449.2978437500005,"end":3452.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3452.99346875,"end":3462.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3462.71346875,"end":3470.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3471.0497187500005,"end":3480.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3481.3603437500005,"end":3488.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3488.56596875,"end":3504.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3505.30596875,"end":3510.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3510.97596875,"end":3512.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3513.3047187500006,"end":3518.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3518.7384687500007,"end":3519.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3521.45534375,"end":3533.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3534.43221875,"end":3559.3565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3560.2003437500007,"end":3566.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3566.9503437500007,"end":3581.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3582.32346875,"end":3586.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3587.09909375,"end":3592.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3592.6678437500004,"end":3596.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3597.5447187500004,"end":3613.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3614.5040937500007,"end":3618.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3618.80721875,"end":3628.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3628.74659375,"end":3642.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3642.9384687500005,"end":3653.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3654.6328437500006,"end":3673.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3673.88721875,"end":3685.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3685.7334687500006,"end":3686.7628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3687.7247187500006,"end":3690.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3691.7072187500007,"end":3714.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3714.4884687500007,"end":3715.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3715.3153437500005,"end":3731.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3732.3253437500007,"end":3774.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3774.04034375,"end":3777.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3782.5115937500004,"end":3782.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3782.8828437500006,"end":3789.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3790.1053437500004,"end":3792.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3792.72096875,"end":3801.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3801.6309687500006,"end":3803.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3803.5040937500007,"end":3807.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3808.2459687500004,"end":3810.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3811.6715937500003,"end":3815.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3817.07159375,"end":3818.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3819.06284375,"end":3819.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3820.32846875,"end":3820.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3821.6953437500006,"end":3822.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3822.7247187500006,"end":3825.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3826.36971875,"end":3828.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3829.18784375,"end":3850.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3851.4628437500005,"end":3853.7578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3854.63534375,"end":3857.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3857.6053437500004,"end":3860.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3861.6384687500004,"end":3862.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3863.6465937500006,"end":3866.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3866.7684687500005,"end":3871.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3871.49346875,"end":3873.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3874.3790937500007,"end":3877.2140937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3877.7540937500007,"end":3878.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3879.5428437500004,"end":3879.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3880.06596875,"end":3884.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3885.12846875,"end":3885.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3886.5965937500005,"end":3887.3728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3887.6259687500005,"end":3888.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3888.97596875,"end":3892.2159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3892.5028437500005,"end":3892.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3893.38034375,"end":3898.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3898.8815937500003,"end":3901.9190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3902.61096875,"end":3904.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3904.7540937500007,"end":3905.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3906.27284375,"end":3907.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3908.02784375,"end":3910.9640937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3911.8078437500008,"end":3914.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3915.67221875,"end":3920.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3921.46034375,"end":3929.5772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3929.71221875,"end":3935.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3935.51721875,"end":3936.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3937.2890937500006,"end":3938.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3938.4197187500004,"end":3940.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3940.32659375,"end":3941.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3942.19971875,"end":3944.9503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3945.62534375,"end":3951.6328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3953.2022187500006,"end":3954.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3955.34534375,"end":3958.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3959.56409375,"end":3965.9597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3966.83721875,"end":3969.1828437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3969.85784375,"end":3973.5197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3974.7684687500005,"end":3975.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3976.43909375,"end":3983.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3983.17221875,"end":3990.3272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3990.9178437500004,"end":3992.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3992.21721875,"end":3996.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3996.55409375,"end":3996.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3997.09409375,"end":3999.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4000.0303437500006,"end":4001.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4001.3972187500003,"end":4002.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4003.6247187500003,"end":4010.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4011.97784375,"end":4014.9815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4016.0447187500004,"end":4017.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4018.72784375,"end":4020.1453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4021.0565937500005,"end":4022.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4022.96346875,"end":4026.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4026.99659375,"end":4029.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4029.9834687500006,"end":4037.6953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4038.4715937500005,"end":4039.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4040.7497187500003,"end":4042.0997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4042.7578437500006,"end":4045.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4046.0147187500006,"end":4046.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4049.2715937500006,"end":4062.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4063.2440937500005,"end":4065.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4066.2140937500008,"end":4078.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4078.46534375,"end":4080.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4081.9247187500005,"end":4087.8478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4088.7253437500003,"end":4092.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4093.93971875,"end":4096.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4097.39909375,"end":4099.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4101.550343749999,"end":4101.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4102.14096875,"end":4103.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4103.92971875,"end":4104.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4105.077218750001,"end":4105.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4106.241593750001,"end":4110.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4110.747218750001,"end":4112.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4112.856593750001,"end":4115.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4116.06284375,"end":4118.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4119.876593749999,"end":4125.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4126.47471875,"end":4133.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4134.67596875,"end":4135.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4136.92034375,"end":4141.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4141.915343750001,"end":4147.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4148.192843750001,"end":4154.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4155.4490937499995,"end":4157.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4159.060343749999,"end":4166.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4166.50221875,"end":4170.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4171.446593750001,"end":4172.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4173.72471875,"end":4175.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4175.83409375,"end":4181.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4182.128468749999,"end":4183.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4184.35596875,"end":4184.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4185.62159375,"end":4186.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4186.88721875,"end":4187.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4188.49034375,"end":4189.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4190.565968749999,"end":4191.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4192.74284375,"end":4194.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4195.24034375,"end":4196.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4197.80534375,"end":4199.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4199.290343750001,"end":4200.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4200.99471875,"end":4203.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4203.745343750001,"end":4206.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4206.749093750001,"end":4214.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4217.07659375,"end":4225.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4225.581593749999,"end":4229.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4230.62721875,"end":4232.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4232.382218750001,"end":4234.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4234.677218750001,"end":4236.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4237.022843750001,"end":4239.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4240.51596875,"end":4242.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4243.99221875,"end":4249.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4249.56096875,"end":4250.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4250.995343750001,"end":4251.737843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4252.75034375,"end":4254.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4255.264718750001,"end":4255.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4257.07034375,"end":4257.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4257.57659375,"end":4260.782843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4261.120343750001,"end":4261.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4262.03159375,"end":4264.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4265.153468750001,"end":4266.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4267.65096875,"end":4271.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4272.122843749999,"end":4274.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4275.02534375,"end":4281.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4281.77534375,"end":4282.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4282.5009687500005,"end":4287.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4288.154093749999,"end":4289.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4289.79096875,"end":4291.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4293.790343750001,"end":4296.220343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4297.31721875,"end":4299.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4300.84409375,"end":4303.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4304.40471875,"end":4309.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4310.513468749999,"end":4312.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4313.58471875,"end":4315.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4315.79534375,"end":4316.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4317.229718750001,"end":4319.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4319.91284375,"end":4321.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4322.562218749999,"end":4323.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4324.38471875,"end":4327.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4329.34596875,"end":4333.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4334.69534375,"end":4338.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4339.825343750001,"end":4345.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4345.7147187499995,"end":4346.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4347.233468750001,"end":4348.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4349.91659375,"end":4355.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4355.87346875,"end":4356.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4357.42596875,"end":4360.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4360.56471875,"end":4362.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4363.36596875,"end":4366.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4368.310343749999,"end":4373.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4373.54159375,"end":4378.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4378.637843750001,"end":4381.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4381.405343750001,"end":4381.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4384.071593750001,"end":4388.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4391.49659375,"end":4392.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4393.36971875,"end":4393.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4394.78721875,"end":4396.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4398.85409375,"end":4404.456593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4405.57034375,"end":4411.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4412.59034375,"end":4419.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4420.28534375,"end":4421.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4422.9853437500005,"end":4426.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4426.66409375,"end":4427.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4427.9803437499995,"end":4430.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4431.270968750001,"end":4433.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4433.430968750001,"end":4435.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4436.4853437500005,"end":4439.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4439.8603437500005,"end":4442.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4443.43784375,"end":4446.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4446.72846875,"end":4447.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4448.26409375,"end":4448.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4449.61409375,"end":4451.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4452.128468749999,"end":4454.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4456.026593750001,"end":4460.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4460.9540937500005,"end":4462.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4463.670968750001,"end":4464.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4464.81846875,"end":4466.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4467.450968749999,"end":4470.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4471.18034375,"end":4475.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4475.483468750001,"end":4476.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4477.52534375,"end":4480.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4481.5584687499995,"end":4482.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4484.25846875,"end":4485.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4486.38471875,"end":4487.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4487.7684687500005,"end":4488.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4489.32096875,"end":4491.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4492.18971875,"end":4493.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4493.55659375,"end":4494.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4495.24409375,"end":4498.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4500.458468750001,"end":4503.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4504.019093749999,"end":4508.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4509.790343750001,"end":4512.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4513.51971875,"end":4516.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4518.126593749999,"end":4519.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4519.729718750001,"end":4524.690968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4525.399718750001,"end":4527.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4528.55534375,"end":4530.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4530.968468749999,"end":4536.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4538.477843750001,"end":4541.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4543.1522187499995,"end":4544.519093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4546.51034375,"end":4550.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4551.2353437500005,"end":4553.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4555.437218749999,"end":4557.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4558.37346875,"end":4558.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4559.942843750001,"end":4560.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4561.66409375,"end":4562.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4563.33471875,"end":4564.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4564.448468750001,"end":4565.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4565.46096875,"end":4566.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4566.557843750001,"end":4568.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4569.44346875,"end":4570.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4570.28721875,"end":4571.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4571.991593750001,"end":4574.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4575.417218750001,"end":4581.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4582.99409375,"end":4583.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4584.66471875,"end":4587.972218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4588.815968749999,"end":4592.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4592.950343750001,"end":4600.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4600.965968750001,"end":4601.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4602.29909375,"end":4606.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4606.97346875,"end":4609.487843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4614.61784375,"end":4619.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4620.57471875,"end":4621.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4622.86971875,"end":4624.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4625.92409375,"end":4630.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4630.9022187499995,"end":4634.800343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4636.09971875,"end":4639.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4639.626593749999,"end":4642.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4643.811593750001,"end":4646.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4647.86159375,"end":4648.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4649.31284375,"end":4650.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4651.962218750001,"end":4654.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4656.231593750001,"end":4661.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4661.530343750001,"end":4667.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4669.88346875,"end":4671.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4672.14471875,"end":4672.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4673.5115937499995,"end":4679.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4679.73846875,"end":4681.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4682.06721875,"end":4682.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4683.80534375,"end":4696.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4697.30534375,"end":4702.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4703.97096875,"end":4709.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4710.923468749999,"end":4711.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4712.12159375,"end":4714.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4714.80471875,"end":4721.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4722.56721875,"end":4723.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4725.874718749999,"end":4729.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4730.12721875,"end":4732.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4734.7509687500005,"end":4737.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4738.109093749999,"end":4739.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4740.218468749999,"end":4741.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4742.749718749999,"end":4745.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4745.466593749999,"end":4750.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4752.94221875,"end":4756.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4756.55346875,"end":4762.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4763.624093750001,"end":4765.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4766.526593750001,"end":4769.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4771.167218750001,"end":4782.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4785.1903437500005,"end":4786.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4786.962218750001,"end":4791.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4793.22284375,"end":4796.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4796.88471875,"end":4797.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4797.66096875,"end":4798.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4801.626593749999,"end":4808.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4808.41034375,"end":4812.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4813.33784375,"end":4821.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4822.112843750001,"end":4827.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4828.42409375,"end":4829.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4831.51221875,"end":4834.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4835.798468749999,"end":4838.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4839.780968749999,"end":4840.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4840.911593750001,"end":4842.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4842.86909375,"end":4844.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4845.61971875,"end":4846.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4849.956593750001,"end":4852.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4852.92659375,"end":4861.110968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4861.9715937500005,"end":4869.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4870.98284375,"end":4871.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4872.839093750001,"end":4877.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4878.981593750001,"end":4883.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4884.19596875,"end":4888.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4888.98846875,"end":4889.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4892.26221875,"end":4895.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4896.29534375,"end":4897.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4898.26971875,"end":4903.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4904.59784375,"end":4906.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4908.782843749999,"end":4913.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4913.794718749999,"end":4919.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4920.71346875,"end":4923.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4923.885968750001,"end":4931.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4935.44534375,"end":4936.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4936.98096875,"end":4937.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4939.19159375,"end":4941.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4943.64659375,"end":4949.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4949.97471875,"end":4955.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4956.62346875,"end":4957.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4957.65284375,"end":4967.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4968.317843750001,"end":4968.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4969.397843750001,"end":4973.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4973.97096875,"end":4974.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4975.37159375,"end":4986.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4986.49221875,"end":4987.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4988.483468750001,"end":4989.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4989.327218750001,"end":4992.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4993.24221875,"end":4993.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4994.102843750001,"end":5011.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5012.26034375,"end":5013.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5013.28971875,"end":5017.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5017.7615937499995,"end":5017.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5017.964093750001,"end":5020.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5020.545968750001,"end":5023.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5024.764718750001,"end":5024.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5025.507218750001,"end":5026.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5026.28346875,"end":5027.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5028.86534375,"end":5029.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5029.860968749999,"end":5031.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5032.27409375,"end":5033.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5034.2147187499995,"end":5035.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5036.6278437500005,"end":5039.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5039.68221875,"end":5040.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5041.52159375,"end":5042.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5042.97284375,"end":5043.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5044.74471875,"end":5048.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5048.50784375,"end":5049.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5050.296593749999,"end":5053.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5055.561593750001,"end":5057.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5059.577843749999,"end":5060.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5060.53971875,"end":5062.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5062.446593750001,"end":5062.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5063.27346875,"end":5064.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5065.0790937500005,"end":5066.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5067.15471875,"end":5068.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5070.5634687500005,"end":5071.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5072.11596875,"end":5072.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5073.29721875,"end":5074.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5075.82846875,"end":5077.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5078.54534375,"end":5079.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5084.384093750001,"end":5084.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5086.66221875,"end":5089.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5089.817843750001,"end":5090.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5091.319718750001,"end":5093.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5093.73284375,"end":5097.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5097.968468749999,"end":5103.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5104.33034375,"end":5106.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5107.165343750001,"end":5108.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5108.380343750001,"end":5109.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5110.32096875,"end":5111.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5112.362843750001,"end":5113.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5113.42596875,"end":5114.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5115.2147187499995,"end":5115.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5117.054093750001,"end":5119.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5119.97346875,"end":5121.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5122.639718750001,"end":5123.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5124.47909375,"end":5124.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5127.5165937500005,"end":5128.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5128.32659375,"end":5129.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5129.91284375,"end":5131.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5131.870343750001,"end":5132.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5133.2372187500005,"end":5133.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5134.04721875,"end":5134.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5135.22846875,"end":5136.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5138.26596875,"end":5139.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5141.64096875,"end":5142.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5144.35784375,"end":5146.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5148.1209687499995,"end":5149.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5150.39909375,"end":5151.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5153.53784375,"end":5155.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5156.49096875,"end":5158.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5158.65096875,"end":5160.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5161.13159375,"end":5162.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5162.59971875,"end":5163.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5164.590968750001,"end":5171.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5172.91034375,"end":5174.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5175.137843750001,"end":5176.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5176.60596875,"end":5178.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5178.76596875,"end":5180.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5181.06096875,"end":5183.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5185.56659375,"end":5187.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5189.700968749999,"end":5192.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5192.4178437499995,"end":5194.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5197.075343750001,"end":5199.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5199.91034375,"end":5201.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5202.23909375,"end":5203.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5203.89284375,"end":5205.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5209.444718750001,"end":5209.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5210.524718750001,"end":5211.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5212.33034375,"end":5213.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5214.8447187500005,"end":5215.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5216.5322187500005,"end":5217.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5219.87346875,"end":5222.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5222.843468749999,"end":5223.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5223.95721875,"end":5225.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5226.404093749999,"end":5227.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5229.137843750001,"end":5230.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5231.280968749999,"end":5232.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5232.968468749999,"end":5234.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5235.53346875,"end":5238.267218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5238.7059687500005,"end":5246.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5248.13909375,"end":5254.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5255.59784375,"end":5257.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5258.34846875,"end":5259.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5259.9178437499995,"end":5261.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5261.655968749999,"end":5263.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5263.444718750001,"end":5266.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5267.30909375,"end":5271.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5271.67971875,"end":5274.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5275.544093750001,"end":5278.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5278.919093750001,"end":5283.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5284.015343749999,"end":5287.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5288.284718750001,"end":5289.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5289.61784375,"end":5290.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5291.339093750001,"end":5292.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5292.233468750001,"end":5292.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5293.2459687499995,"end":5296.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5297.481593750001,"end":5299.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5300.45159375,"end":5301.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5301.734093749999,"end":5306.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5306.847218750001,"end":5307.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5310.91409375,"end":5313.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5314.204718749999,"end":5317.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5317.42784375,"end":5318.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5318.895968750001,"end":5319.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5320.14471875,"end":5321.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5321.849093750001,"end":5324.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5328.05909375,"end":5328.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5329.18971875,"end":5329.814093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5330.26971875,"end":5331.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5333.3240937499995,"end":5335.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5335.585343750001,"end":5338.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5338.774718750001,"end":5340.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5343.044093750001,"end":5344.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5344.967843750001,"end":5349.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5350.064093749999,"end":5351.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5352.10596875,"end":5353.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5355.19409375,"end":5356.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5356.915343750001,"end":5358.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5358.53534375,"end":5360.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5363.142218749999,"end":5364.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5365.65659375,"end":5366.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5367.360968749999,"end":5369.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5370.0947187500005,"end":5371.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5371.69784375,"end":5373.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5373.95909375,"end":5379.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5382.29534375,"end":5382.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5385.788468750001,"end":5387.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5388.690968750001,"end":5389.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5389.93971875,"end":5391.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5391.72846875,"end":5392.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5393.905343750001,"end":5396.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5397.24659375,"end":5398.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5400.80721875,"end":5401.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5404.857218749999,"end":5406.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5409.37971875,"end":5410.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5411.45534375,"end":5411.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5412.38346875,"end":5412.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5414.12159375,"end":5415.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5416.264718750001,"end":5417.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5417.429093750001,"end":5418.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5419.251593749999,"end":5419.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5420.83784375,"end":5421.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5422.170968750001,"end":5423.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5424.044093750001,"end":5426.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5426.760968750001,"end":5427.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5428.22909375,"end":5428.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5429.241593750001,"end":5429.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5431.70534375,"end":5432.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5433.44346875,"end":5434.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5434.675343750001,"end":5438.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5441.155343750001,"end":5442.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5442.80909375,"end":5443.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5445.47534375,"end":5446.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5446.825343750001,"end":5447.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5448.175343750001,"end":5449.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5449.575968749999,"end":5451.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5454.19971875,"end":5455.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5456.0897187499995,"end":5458.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5459.144093750001,"end":5460.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5478.044093750001,"end":5478.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5478.972218750001,"end":5480.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5482.110968749999,"end":5483.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5484.0009687500005,"end":5484.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5485.958468750001,"end":5488.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5497.3153437500005,"end":5498.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5499.0028437500005,"end":5500.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5501.382218750001,"end":5502.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5503.42409375,"end":5504.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5505.0272187499995,"end":5506.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5507.153468750001,"end":5509.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5509.583468750001,"end":5510.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5510.73096875,"end":5517.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5527.23471875,"end":5528.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5529.327218750001,"end":5532.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5532.85409375,"end":5534.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5535.233468750001,"end":5536.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5538.01784375,"end":5538.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5539.064093749999,"end":5542.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5542.84409375,"end":5545.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5546.607218749999,"end":5548.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5548.919093750001,"end":5551.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5552.41221875,"end":5553.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5553.8465937500005,"end":5557.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5558.77409375,"end":5560.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5561.54159375,"end":5562.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5562.874718749999,"end":5564.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5564.714093750001,"end":5567.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5568.122843749999,"end":5575.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5576.475968750001,"end":5579.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5579.901593750001,"end":5580.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5581.015343749999,"end":5582.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5582.41596875,"end":5586.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5587.157843749999,"end":5587.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5588.27159375,"end":5589.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5590.00971875,"end":5591.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5596.33784375,"end":5600.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5600.624093750001,"end":5602.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5604.134093750001,"end":5605.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5605.585343750001,"end":5606.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5607.57659375,"end":5609.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5610.10784375,"end":5613.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5614.107218749999,"end":5616.267218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5616.77346875,"end":5617.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5617.954718749999,"end":5619.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5619.15284375,"end":5621.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5621.515343749999,"end":5625.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5625.700343750001,"end":5629.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5629.88534375,"end":5631.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5633.96909375,"end":5635.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5636.02784375,"end":5643.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5663.50034375,"end":5665.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5678.991593750001,"end":5679.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6252.33659375,"end":6253.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6253.97346875,"end":6254.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6254.142218750001,"end":6257.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6257.55096875,"end":6259.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6260.807843750001,"end":6261.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6262.107218749999,"end":6268.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6269.92034375,"end":6274.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6275.26971875,"end":6276.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6277.0584687499995,"end":6280.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6281.04096875,"end":6282.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6282.94784375,"end":6283.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6284.21346875,"end":6286.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6287.655968749999,"end":6289.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6291.35159375,"end":6298.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6299.4178437499995,"end":6302.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6302.55659375,"end":6307.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6308.6990937499995,"end":6310.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6311.280968749999,"end":6314.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6315.3309687500005,"end":6318.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6318.874718749999,"end":6322.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6323.21159375,"end":6324.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6324.7978437500005,"end":6326.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6326.805968750001,"end":6335.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6336.1209687499995,"end":6343.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6344.27159375,"end":6350.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6350.58284375,"end":6358.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6358.446593750001,"end":6359.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6361.65284375,"end":6364.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6367.255343750001,"end":6369.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6369.972218750001,"end":6369.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6370.19159375,"end":6372.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6372.95909375,"end":6375.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6375.94596875,"end":6381.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6381.48096875,"end":6384.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6385.682843750001,"end":6392.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6392.97284375,"end":6393.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6394.170968750001,"end":6395.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6395.58846875,"end":6399.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6399.77346875,"end":6403.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6404.144093750001,"end":6419.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6420.39471875,"end":6423.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6424.394093750001,"end":6426.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6427.3134687500005,"end":6428.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6429.692843750001,"end":6437.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6438.5184687500005,"end":6440.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6440.69534375,"end":6446.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6446.34846875,"end":6450.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6451.1747187500005,"end":6452.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6453.72284375,"end":6456.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6456.608468750001,"end":6466.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6467.138468749999,"end":6478.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6479.30534375,"end":6482.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6482.984093749999,"end":6484.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6485.565968750001,"end":6490.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6490.915343750001,"end":6492.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6493.09221875,"end":6496.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6497.479718750001,"end":6502.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6503.2509687500005,"end":6503.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6505.05659375,"end":6512.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6512.194718750001,"end":6521.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6522.218468749999,"end":6523.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6524.54721875,"end":6528.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6529.05284375,"end":6533.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6534.317843750001,"end":6541.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6542.519093750001,"end":6543.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6544.27409375,"end":6548.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6549.28596875,"end":6554.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6555.05721875,"end":6557.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6557.79096875,"end":6560.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6561.452843749999,"end":6563.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6563.984093749999,"end":6569.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6570.413468750001,"end":6579.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6579.72846875,"end":6581.517218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6581.854718750001,"end":6586.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6586.90034375,"end":6591.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6591.54096875,"end":6597.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6598.22346875,"end":6606.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6607.589093750001,"end":6609.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6609.76596875,"end":6610.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6611.26784375,"end":6617.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6618.135968750001,"end":6625.814093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6626.3709687499995,"end":6629.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6630.404093749999,"end":6633.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6633.9647187499995,"end":6636.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6637.32284375,"end":6640.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6640.83284375,"end":6646.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6646.65471875,"end":6663.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6663.7997187500005,"end":6666.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6667.309718750001,"end":6672.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6673.064093750001,"end":6674.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6675.7303437499995,"end":6680.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6681.0965937500005,"end":6689.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6690.360968750001,"end":6701.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6701.295968750001,"end":6708.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6708.75471875,"end":6712.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6712.36596875,"end":6713.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6714.407843750001,"end":6717.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6717.647843750001,"end":6719.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6720.16221875,"end":6726.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6726.692843750001,"end":6733.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6733.89846875,"end":6738.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6739.5009687500005,"end":6743.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6745.13721875,"end":6750.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6750.85784375,"end":6754.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6755.903468750001,"end":6764.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6764.712218750001,"end":6776.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6777.25034375,"end":6782.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6782.7684687500005,"end":6795.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6795.91409375,"end":6827.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6828.01034375,"end":6830.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6830.96346875,"end":6835.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6835.94159375,"end":6840.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6840.53159375,"end":6840.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6842.69159375,"end":6847.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6851.17971875,"end":6851.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6851.196593750001,"end":6854.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6854.97659375,"end":6857.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6857.91284375,"end":6859.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6859.14471875,"end":6918.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6919.33784375,"end":6931.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6931.75784375,"end":6933.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6933.9853437500005,"end":6941.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6942.70971875,"end":6952.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6953.104718750001,"end":6955.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6956.36159375,"end":6982.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6982.635968750001,"end":6984.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6986.247218750001,"end":6991.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6991.815968750001,"end":6995.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6996.96284375,"end":7002.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7002.76784375,"end":7003.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7003.544093750001,"end":7011.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7011.9647187499995,"end":7017.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7018.495343750001,"end":7020.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7020.554093750001,"end":7028.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7029.7509687500005,"end":7033.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7033.7840937500005,"end":7043.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7044.651593750001,"end":7045.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7045.444718750001,"end":7047.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7048.583468750001,"end":7049.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7049.30909375,"end":7051.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7053.747218750001,"end":7056.126593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7058.06721875,"end":7061.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7062.083468750001,"end":7068.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7068.63096875,"end":7075.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7075.83659375,"end":7089.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7090.0790937500005,"end":7093.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7094.55096875,"end":7097.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7098.7528437500005,"end":7104.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7105.60409375,"end":7109.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7111.257218750001,"end":7116.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7118.479718750001,"end":7122.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7124.11596875,"end":7132.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7133.16096875,"end":7141.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7141.75034375,"end":7151.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7152.29721875,"end":7175.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7176.5634687500005,"end":7179.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7180.124093750001,"end":7181.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7182.43596875,"end":7183.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7184.62971875,"end":7185.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7186.18221875,"end":7193.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7193.77596875,"end":7201.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7201.859093750001,"end":7204.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7204.542218750001,"end":7227.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7229.21346875,"end":7240.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7242.15659375,"end":7244.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7245.71721875,"end":7247.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7248.75471875,"end":7252.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7253.20971875,"end":7255.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7256.16284375,"end":7258.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7258.47471875,"end":7259.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7261.529093749999,"end":7263.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7263.75659375,"end":7271.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7271.805968750001,"end":7278.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7279.12971875,"end":7280.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7280.88471875,"end":7286.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7287.24659375,"end":7288.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7288.866593750001,"end":7292.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7292.27534375,"end":7305.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7307.294093750001,"end":7314.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7315.208468750001,"end":7317.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7318.296593750001,"end":7321.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7322.44784375,"end":7326.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7327.74659375,"end":7340.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7341.8709687499995,"end":7351.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7352.97471875,"end":7358.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7359.404093749999,"end":7374.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7377.47721875,"end":7377.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7378.962218750001,"end":7381.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7381.56096875,"end":7383.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7383.80534375,"end":7403.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7404.52784375,"end":7410.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7410.75471875,"end":7419.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7420.575968749999,"end":7425.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7426.80284375,"end":7431.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7432.540343750001,"end":7433.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7434.042218750001,"end":7442.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7445.1122187500005,"end":7459.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7460.249093750001,"end":7464.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7466.475968750001,"end":7471.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7473.20909375,"end":7473.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7473.749093750001,"end":7476.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7476.80346875,"end":7484.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7485.62909375,"end":7499.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7499.31471875,"end":7501.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7501.727843750001,"end":7506.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7501.98096875,"end":7502.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7506.182843750001,"end":7507.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7507.954718750001,"end":7510.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7510.80659375,"end":7515.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7516.1728437500005,"end":7522.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7522.65284375,"end":7538.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7539.274718750001,"end":7553.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7554.20909375,"end":7561.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7562.02221875,"end":7563.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7564.300343750001,"end":7569.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7570.1053437499995,"end":7576.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7576.38284375,"end":7587.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7588.41471875,"end":7593.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7593.66284375,"end":7595.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7596.29534375,"end":7612.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7612.98471875,"end":7615.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7616.12346875,"end":7618.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7618.94159375,"end":7620.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7621.118468750001,"end":7621.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7622.468468750001,"end":7625.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7626.501593750001,"end":7635.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7636.069718750001,"end":7640.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7641.2840937500005,"end":7645.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7645.33409375,"end":7655.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7656.2353437500005,"end":7672.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7673.700968749999,"end":7674.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7675.169093750001,"end":7694.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7694.72721875,"end":7695.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7696.448468750001,"end":7707.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7707.7040937500005,"end":7716.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7716.9853437500005,"end":7719.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7719.702218750001,"end":7733.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7734.77159375,"end":7750.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7750.98846875,"end":7752.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7753.1990937499995,"end":7765.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7766.007218750001,"end":7769.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7769.567843750001,"end":7775.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7775.64284375,"end":7776.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7777.22909375,"end":7778.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7779.30471875,"end":7780.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7780.38471875,"end":7783.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7783.92846875,"end":7789.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7791.404093749999,"end":7792.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7793.39534375,"end":7800.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7800.651593750001,"end":7808.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7808.4647187499995,"end":7809.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7810.47284375,"end":7819.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7819.88909375,"end":7821.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7821.44159375,"end":7827.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7827.314093750001,"end":7830.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7831.61721875,"end":7833.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7833.99659375,"end":7836.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7836.47721875,"end":7839.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7840.88159375,"end":7841.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7842.366593750001,"end":7850.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7850.82096875,"end":7853.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7853.655968750001,"end":7858.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7860.70971875,"end":7864.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7864.89471875,"end":7874.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7874.985968750001,"end":7879.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7879.94721875,"end":7888.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7888.38471875,"end":7889.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7889.616593750001,"end":7890.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7890.86534375,"end":7892.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7893.02534375,"end":7895.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7895.69159375,"end":7897.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7898.25659375,"end":7899.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7900.635968750001,"end":7912.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7913.5790937500005,"end":7923.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7924.24409375,"end":7935.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7935.702218750001,"end":7938.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7939.22909375,"end":7946.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7947.9872187500005,"end":7950.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7950.130343750001,"end":7966.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7966.46534375,"end":7982.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7983.087218750001,"end":7989.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7989.735968750001,"end":8002.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8003.235968750001,"end":8004.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8006.30721875,"end":8008.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8008.8553437499995,"end":8027.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8029.00409375,"end":8038.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8039.2978437500005,"end":8048.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8048.73096875,"end":8059.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8059.9697187500005,"end":8130.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8130.878468750001,"end":8131.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8131.452218750001,"end":8134.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8135.45159375,"end":8140.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8141.054093750001,"end":8144.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8144.243468750001,"end":8148.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8149.154093750001,"end":8154.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8154.925343750001,"end":8159.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8160.07221875,"end":8160.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8161.32096875,"end":8162.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8162.60346875,"end":8163.548468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8163.80159375,"end":8168.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8168.96534375,"end":8174.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8175.05721875,"end":8175.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8176.00221875,"end":8189.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8189.87346875,"end":8190.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8191.122218750001,"end":8207.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8207.42346875,"end":8223.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8223.42096875,"end":8237.055968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8237.359718750002,"end":8239.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8239.65471875,"end":8249.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8250.03284375,"end":8250.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8251.332218750002,"end":8260.259093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8260.782218750002,"end":8281.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8281.386593750001,"end":8305.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8306.42909375,"end":8314.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8314.731593750003,"end":8317.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8317.87034375,"end":8319.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8321.262218750002,"end":8323.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8323.77659375,"end":8326.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8326.375343750002,"end":8359.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8360.648468750001,"end":8406.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8406.480968750002,"end":8424.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8425.54971875,"end":8430.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8430.49409375,"end":8435.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8436.231593750003,"end":8452.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8452.347218750001,"end":8461.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8461.93221875,"end":8506.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8506.667843750001,"end":8518.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8518.98659375,"end":8547.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8547.606593750003,"end":8569.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8570.52284375,"end":8574.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8574.94409375,"end":8597.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8598.113468750002,"end":8605.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8606.36534375,"end":8607.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8609.082218750002,"end":8610.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8611.52909375,"end":8643.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8643.55784375,"end":8648.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8650.155968750001,"end":8676.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8677.35846875,"end":8680.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8680.480343750001,"end":8687.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8688.05721875,"end":8720.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8721.06471875,"end":8734.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8735.712218750003,"end":8745.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8745.80346875,"end":8757.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8758.054718750001,"end":8760.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8761.04159375,"end":8764.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8765.226593750001,"end":8775.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8775.570968750002,"end":8781.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8782.01721875,"end":8837.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8794.184093750002,"end":8795.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8795.230343750001,"end":8795.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8825.26784375,"end":8825.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8835.156593750002,"end":8836.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8837.55284375,"end":8840.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8849.36534375,"end":8857.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8858.309093750002,"end":8861.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8862.527843750002,"end":8873.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8873.344718750002,"end":8903.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8903.90534375,"end":8907.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8907.465968750003,"end":8908.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8908.57971875,"end":8914.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8914.80659375,"end":8919.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8919.76784375,"end":8930.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8931.512843750003,"end":8938.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8939.089718750001,"end":8939.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8940.18659375,"end":8941.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8941.75596875,"end":8954.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8954.918468750002,"end":8965.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8965.38096875,"end":8974.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8974.476593750001,"end":8976.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8977.98659375,"end":8985.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8986.289093750001,"end":8989.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8990.01846875,"end":8995.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8996.110343750002,"end":9010.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9010.26846875,"end":9018.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9019.44846875,"end":9030.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9032.18909375,"end":9032.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9033.67409375,"end":9037.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9039.040343750003,"end":9040.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9041.33534375,"end":9042.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9043.191593750002,"end":9044.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9045.58784375,"end":9047.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9047.984093750001,"end":9055.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9056.77596875,"end":9060.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9062.125343750002,"end":9064.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9064.79159375,"end":9066.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9067.25534375,"end":9069.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9070.309718750003,"end":9075.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9075.743468750003,"end":9082.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9082.105343750001,"end":9090.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9091.26846875,"end":9092.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9093.47909375,"end":9094.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9094.47471875,"end":9104.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9105.39284375,"end":9107.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9107.519093750001,"end":9112.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9112.26096875,"end":9114.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9115.399718750003,"end":9119.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9119.83784375,"end":9120.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9121.019093750001,"end":9125.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9125.79471875,"end":9127.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9128.562218750001,"end":9138.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9139.159718750001,"end":9145.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9146.196593750003,"end":9148.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9148.778468750003,"end":9154.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9155.32596875,"end":9160.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9161.519093750001,"end":9163.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9163.594718750002,"end":9164.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9165.012218750002,"end":9169.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9169.956593750001,"end":9170.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9171.610343750002,"end":9173.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9174.31034375,"end":9175.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9176.33534375,"end":9185.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9186.629093750002,"end":9192.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9193.429718750001,"end":9199.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9199.84221875,"end":9201.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9202.356593750003,"end":9208.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9209.24159375,"end":9211.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9212.262218750002,"end":9214.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9214.65846875,"end":9229.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9229.47471875,"end":9237.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9238.199093750001,"end":9250.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9250.500968750002,"end":9254.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9255.344093750002,"end":9262.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9263.37659375,"end":9264.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9264.372218750003,"end":9266.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9267.22409375,"end":9268.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9270.312218750001,"end":9272.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9272.30346875,"end":9275.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9275.62784375,"end":9283.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9284.16659375,"end":9287.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9287.980343750001,"end":9288.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9289.33034375,"end":9292.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9292.890968750002,"end":9296.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9297.008468750002,"end":9300.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9301.125968750002,"end":9305.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9306.340343750002,"end":9309.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9309.37784375,"end":9313.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9314.27159375,"end":9315.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9315.31784375,"end":9325.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9325.61159375,"end":9327.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9328.075343750003,"end":9329.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9331.61909375,"end":9335.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9335.46659375,"end":9338.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9339.617843750002,"end":9344.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9345.08534375,"end":9347.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9348.46034375,"end":9351.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9352.999718750001,"end":9359.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9360.00284375,"end":9372.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9373.941593750002,"end":9376.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9377.55284375,"end":9379.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9379.72971875,"end":9384.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9384.99471875,"end":9386.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9388.16721875,"end":9389.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9390.47909375,"end":9394.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9395.71034375,"end":9397.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9398.37659375,"end":9407.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9407.320343750001,"end":9411.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9412.46721875,"end":9416.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9417.512843750003,"end":9420.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9420.95534375,"end":9421.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9422.06909375,"end":9428.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9429.055343750002,"end":9433.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9433.965968750003,"end":9436.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9436.969718750002,"end":9439.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9440.10846875,"end":9453.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9453.86159375,"end":9457.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9457.118468750003,"end":9459.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9460.797218750002,"end":9465.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9467.14221875,"end":9468.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9469.04909375,"end":9470.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9471.614093750002,"end":9473.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9473.672843750002,"end":9474.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9475.343468750001,"end":9476.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9476.980343750001,"end":9479.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9479.629718750002,"end":9481.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9481.85721875,"end":9483.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9484.219718750002,"end":9486.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9487.054718750001,"end":9488.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9489.265343750001,"end":9489.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9490.39596875,"end":9492.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9493.062218750001,"end":9494.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9494.918468750002,"end":9496.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9495.67784375,"end":9496.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9507.000968750002,"end":9510.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9510.578468750002,"end":9511.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9510.81471875,"end":9512.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9512.940968750001,"end":9515.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9517.699718750002,"end":9519.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9520.78784375,"end":9522.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9522.222218750001,"end":9523.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9524.348468750002,"end":9528.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9529.37721875,"end":9539.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9540.24471875,"end":9541.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9541.847843750002,"end":9547.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9548.024093750002,"end":9549.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9550.20096875,"end":9555.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9555.38159375,"end":9556.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9556.984718750002,"end":9560.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9561.86159375,"end":9562.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9562.418468750002,"end":9563.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9562.587218750003,"end":9565.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9564.49409375,"end":9566.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9565.793468750002,"end":9566.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9566.62034375,"end":9566.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9566.92409375,"end":9567.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9567.227843750003,"end":9569.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9567.29534375,"end":9567.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9569.117843750002,"end":9571.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9569.269718750002,"end":9571.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9571.19346875,"end":9580.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9580.019093750001,"end":9582.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9582.044093750003,"end":9584.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9584.42346875,"end":9585.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9585.73971875,"end":9588.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9588.50721875,"end":9590.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9590.66721875,"end":9592.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9593.40096875,"end":9596.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9597.04596875,"end":9599.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9599.425343750001,"end":9602.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9603.171593750001,"end":9609.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9609.297218750002,"end":9611.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9612.23346875,"end":9617.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9617.211593750002,"end":9619.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9620.13096875,"end":9622.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9623.62409375,"end":9632.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9632.500343750002,"end":9633.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9634.47471875,"end":9635.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9636.550343750001,"end":9641.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9642.55784375,"end":9649.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9649.797218750002,"end":9654.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9655.028468750003,"end":9656.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9657.239093750002,"end":9661.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9662.06534375,"end":9664.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9665.05221875,"end":9665.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9666.503468750001,"end":9670.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9670.739093750002,"end":9672.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9673.219718750002,"end":9675.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9675.86909375,"end":9677.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9678.535343750002,"end":9680.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9680.172218750002,"end":9694.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9695.680343750002,"end":9697.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9697.249718750001,"end":9708.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9709.382843750001,"end":9712.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9713.56784375,"end":9721.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9722.27534375,"end":9728.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9728.890343750001,"end":9730.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9731.08409375,"end":9739.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9739.825343750003,"end":9743.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9744.11159375,"end":9745.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9746.42346875,"end":9749.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9749.832218750002,"end":9754.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9754.91159375,"end":9757.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9757.44284375,"end":9768.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9769.238468750002,"end":9769.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9770.706593750001,"end":9772.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9772.934093750002,"end":9774.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9775.566593750002,"end":9776.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9777.43971875,"end":9781.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9782.940968750001,"end":9783.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9784.577843750001,"end":9786.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9787.109093750001,"end":9788.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9789.37034375,"end":9791.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9791.969093750002,"end":9798.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9799.74846875,"end":9803.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9803.44409375,"end":9819.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9819.57659375,"end":9828.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9829.195343750001,"end":9831.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9832.38471875,"end":9839.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9839.691593750002,"end":9851.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9852.21284375,"end":9867.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9867.61971875,"end":9868.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9869.965343750002,"end":9871.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9871.66971875,"end":9878.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9879.027218750001,"end":9881.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9881.47409375,"end":9881.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9881.49096875,"end":9881.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9881.609093750001,"end":9881.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9882.01409375,"end":9884.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9884.933468750001,"end":9906.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9906.85409375,"end":9907.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9907.883468750002,"end":9917.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9918.278468750003,"end":9920.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9920.82659375,"end":9921.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9921.82221875,"end":9923.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9923.695343750001,"end":9926.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9927.35721875,"end":9931.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9931.862843750001,"end":9932.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9933.246593750002,"end":9943.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9945.008468750002,"end":9950.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9950.03721875,"end":9950.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9951.72471875,"end":9958.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9960.68534375,"end":9967.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9968.009093750003,"end":9970.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9970.92846875,"end":9974.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9974.94471875,"end":9975.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9976.598468750002,"end":9980.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9981.711593750002,"end":9984.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9984.36096875,"end":9986.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9987.78659375,"end":9992.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9993.81096875,"end":9997.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9998.046593750001,"end":9999.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10000.03784375,"end":10003.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10004.88096875,"end":10009.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10010.297843750002,"end":10015.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10016.06909375,"end":10019.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10020.59159375,"end":10025.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10025.957843750002,"end":10029.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10029.61971875,"end":10033.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10034.31096875,"end":10041.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10042.27596875,"end":10046.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10047.43971875,"end":10051.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10052.14784375,"end":10061.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10061.715968750003,"end":10066.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10067.183468750001,"end":10067.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10068.31409375,"end":10084.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10084.51409375,"end":10087.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10088.175968750002,"end":10096.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10097.71034375,"end":10116.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10116.82971875,"end":10135.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10135.44284375,"end":10143.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10144.032218750002,"end":10155.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10155.96284375,"end":10174.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10176.870968750001,"end":10186.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10187.29971875,"end":10191.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10191.99096875,"end":10196.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10197.171593750001,"end":10199.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10201.035968750002,"end":10202.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10203.36471875,"end":10206.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10207.22909375,"end":10208.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10209.000968750002,"end":10227.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10228.356593750003,"end":10238.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10238.582843750002,"end":10270.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10270.628468750001,"end":10273.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10274.23971875,"end":10282.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10282.761593750001,"end":10288.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10288.684718750003,"end":10293.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10294.30409375,"end":10300.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10301.222843750002,"end":10304.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10304.68221875,"end":10307.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10308.47909375,"end":10310.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10311.449093750001,"end":10321.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10322.468468750001,"end":10339.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10340.187218750001,"end":10347.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10348.48971875,"end":10355.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10355.965343750002,"end":10364.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10365.415343750003,"end":10374.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10374.578468750002,"end":10384.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10384.61909375,"end":10389.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10390.019093750001,"end":10392.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10392.38159375,"end":10401.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10402.43909375,"end":10403.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10404.632843750001,"end":10409.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10409.93159375,"end":10411.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10412.749718750001,"end":10422.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10422.68909375,"end":10424.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10424.899718750003,"end":10428.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10428.29159375,"end":10429.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10430.687843750002,"end":10438.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10438.905968750001,"end":10447.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10448.49096875,"end":10449.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10449.469718750002,"end":10453.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10454.042843750001,"end":10458.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10459.493468750003,"end":10470.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10470.41159375,"end":10473.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10473.70221875,"end":10478.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10479.13596875,"end":10482.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10483.18596875,"end":10486.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10487.590343750002,"end":10488.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10489.88534375,"end":10491.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10492.551593750002,"end":10497.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10498.356593750003,"end":10500.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10500.297218750002,"end":10504.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10505.34284375,"end":10506.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10508.07659375,"end":10510.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10511.637218750002,"end":10514.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10515.19784375,"end":10520.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10521.00284375,"end":10525.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10527.06096875,"end":10530.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10531.54971875,"end":10540.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10541.438468750002,"end":10547.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10548.00284375,"end":10549.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10549.79159375,"end":10550.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10551.05721875,"end":10551.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10552.12034375,"end":10553.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10554.786593750003,"end":10556.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10557.722843750002,"end":10559.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10560.422843750002,"end":10563.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10564.169093750003,"end":10574.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10575.559718750003,"end":10578.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10579.49159375,"end":10585.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10585.85346875,"end":10594.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10595.20221875,"end":10602.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10602.559718750003,"end":10607.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10607.38596875,"end":10610.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10610.474093750003,"end":10617.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10617.629093750002,"end":10619.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10619.50221875,"end":10626.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10626.336593750002,"end":10629.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10629.964718750001,"end":10642.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10643.32971875,"end":10644.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10644.426593750002,"end":10650.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10651.075343750003,"end":10651.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10651.800968750002,"end":10653.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10653.42096875,"end":10654.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10655.00721875,"end":10656.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10657.032218750002,"end":10659.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10659.64784375,"end":10662.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10662.989093750002,"end":10663.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10664.81159375,"end":10675.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10675.746593750002,"end":10687.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10687.356593750003,"end":10692.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10693.00971875,"end":10698.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10698.527843750002,"end":10701.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10702.004093750002,"end":10718.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10719.06471875,"end":10724.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10725.46034375,"end":10730.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10731.29909375,"end":10738.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10738.757843750001,"end":10743.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10743.786593750003,"end":10750.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10750.82346875,"end":10751.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10752.325343750003,"end":10763.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10765.285343750002,"end":10769.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10771.10721875,"end":10774.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10774.81971875,"end":10777.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10777.48596875,"end":10781.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10782.480968750002,"end":10783.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10783.695968750002,"end":10784.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10784.539718750002,"end":10797.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10797.617843750002,"end":10806.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10806.98346875,"end":10870.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10871.243468750003,"end":10875.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10876.238468750002,"end":10880.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10881.030968750001,"end":10900.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10900.656593750002,"end":10901.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10901.46659375,"end":10913.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10915.270343750002,"end":10916.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10916.40096875,"end":10923.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10924.230968750002,"end":10925.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10926.289718750002,"end":10947.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10948.075343750003,"end":10955.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10956.040343750003,"end":10956.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10956.37784375,"end":10957.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10957.05284375,"end":10957.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10957.54221875,"end":10959.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10959.145343750002,"end":10959.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10959.60096875,"end":10961.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10962.942218750002,"end":10965.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10966.92471875,"end":10968.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10969.067843750003,"end":10973.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10974.56909375,"end":10985.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10985.74034375,"end":10999.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11000.10096875,"end":11005.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11006.47971875,"end":11007.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11007.84659375,"end":11014.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11014.95096875,"end":11015.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11015.929718750001,"end":11022.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11023.45596875,"end":11027.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11028.56909375,"end":11031.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11031.37034375,"end":11037.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11037.765968750002,"end":11040.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11040.63471875,"end":11044.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11045.59596875,"end":11046.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11046.625343750002,"end":11055.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11056.176593750002,"end":11063.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11064.175343750001,"end":11071.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11072.49471875,"end":11075.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11076.03846875,"end":11085.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11086.534718750001,"end":11093.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11094.26346875,"end":11097.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11098.70159375,"end":11111.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11112.04971875,"end":11113.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11113.88909375,"end":11122.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11122.309718750003,"end":11125.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11126.849093750003,"end":11128.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11129.144093750001,"end":11134.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11135.168468750002,"end":11139.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11139.927218750003,"end":11143.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11143.96034375,"end":11144.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11145.05721875,"end":11150.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11150.96346875,"end":11155.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11155.840343750002,"end":11159.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11159.60346875,"end":11163.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11164.649093750002,"end":11168.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11170.859093750001,"end":11171.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11171.90534375,"end":11171.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11172.715343750002,"end":11182.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11183.17784375,"end":11186.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11186.957843750002,"end":11186.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11187.059093750002,"end":11191.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11191.66596875,"end":11197.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11197.74096875,"end":11199.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11200.508468750002,"end":11209.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11209.97534375,"end":11215.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11217.04596875,"end":11217.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11218.446593750003,"end":11219.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11219.442218750002,"end":11220.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11220.67409375,"end":11222.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11222.41221875,"end":11224.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11226.394718750002,"end":11227.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11227.356593750003,"end":11230.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11232.520343750002,"end":11233.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11234.460968750001,"end":11235.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11236.688468750002,"end":11237.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11238.19034375,"end":11238.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11239.253468750001,"end":11241.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11242.425968750002,"end":11242.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11243.438468750002,"end":11244.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11245.024718750003,"end":11245.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11246.67846875,"end":11248.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11248.78784375,"end":11250.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11251.67346875,"end":11253.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11253.985343750002,"end":11255.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11255.520968750003,"end":11256.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11257.259093750003,"end":11259.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11259.68909375,"end":11261.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11262.16971875,"end":11266.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11267.417843750001,"end":11268.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11270.08409375,"end":11271.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11272.29471875,"end":11276.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11278.184093750002,"end":11283.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11283.938468750002,"end":11287.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11288.76471875,"end":11293.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11294.08034375,"end":11302.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11302.19721875,"end":11307.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11309.41971875,"end":11313.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11316.405968750001,"end":11318.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11318.92034375,"end":11320.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11320.23659375,"end":11322.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11322.177218750003,"end":11323.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11323.949093750001,"end":11325.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11326.24409375,"end":11328.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11329.011593750001,"end":11329.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11330.83409375,"end":11332.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11333.90534375,"end":11335.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11335.89659375,"end":11337.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11338.630343750003,"end":11340.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11340.992843750002,"end":11343.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11343.827843750001,"end":11344.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11345.515343750001,"end":11346.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11346.46034375,"end":11347.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11347.253468750001,"end":11350.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11351.10096875,"end":11352.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11353.24409375,"end":11353.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11354.56034375,"end":11358.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11359.52159375,"end":11362.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11363.183468750001,"end":11369.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11371.097843750002,"end":11371.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11372.954093750002,"end":11377.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11378.539718750002,"end":11381.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11381.93159375,"end":11392.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11392.86659375,"end":11398.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11398.671593750001,"end":11409.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11410.399718750003,"end":11414.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11415.36096875,"end":11424.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11424.54096875,"end":11437.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11438.10846875,"end":11440.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11442.023468750001,"end":11442.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11442.79971875,"end":11443.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11444.04846875,"end":11445.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11446.17471875,"end":11447.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11447.406593750002,"end":11447.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11448.13221875,"end":11449.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11451.23721875,"end":11459.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11460.737843750001,"end":11464.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11465.41221875,"end":11478.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11478.50721875,"end":11484.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11484.24471875,"end":11486.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11486.40471875,"end":11489.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11490.066593750002,"end":11490.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11491.534718750001,"end":11493.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11493.610343750002,"end":11496.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11496.884093750003,"end":11498.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11498.453468750002,"end":11498.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11498.976593750001,"end":11500.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11504.54534375,"end":11504.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11505.01784375,"end":11508.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11511.480968750002,"end":11514.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11514.906593750002,"end":11518.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11518.56846875,"end":11519.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11520.289718750002,"end":11520.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11521.20096875,"end":11522.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11522.702843750001,"end":11524.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11524.879718750002,"end":11526.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11526.719093750002,"end":11527.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11528.406593750002,"end":11531.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11532.18659375,"end":11532.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11533.300343750001,"end":11534.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11535.848468750002,"end":11540.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11540.691593750002,"end":11541.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11542.007843750001,"end":11545.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11547.542843750001,"end":11548.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11549.93909375,"end":11550.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11553.297218750002,"end":11556.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11557.465343750002,"end":11558.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11559.574718750002,"end":11560.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11563.152218750001,"end":11564.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11565.34596875,"end":11566.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11567.286593750003,"end":11569.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11569.277843750002,"end":11570.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11571.269093750001,"end":11572.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11573.53034375,"end":11574.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11575.133468750002,"end":11575.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11576.230343750001,"end":11578.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11578.677218750003,"end":11580.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11582.507843750001,"end":11583.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11583.43596875,"end":11584.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11584.38096875,"end":11587.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11589.004718750002,"end":11589.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11590.45596875,"end":11591.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11591.97471875,"end":11592.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11593.105343750001,"end":11593.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11594.792843750001,"end":11597.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11598.488468750002,"end":11600.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11600.95221875,"end":11602.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11603.41596875,"end":11603.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11604.293468750002,"end":11604.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11606.06534375,"end":11606.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11607.17909375,"end":11608.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11608.680968750003,"end":11611.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11612.22471875,"end":11613.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11613.92909375,"end":11615.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11616.375968750002,"end":11617.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11618.265968750002,"end":11619.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11619.97034375,"end":11621.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11623.56471875,"end":11624.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11624.442218750002,"end":11625.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11626.433468750001,"end":11627.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11628.458468750003,"end":11628.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11629.47096875,"end":11631.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11634.17909375,"end":11635.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11636.17034375,"end":11636.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11637.081593750001,"end":11638.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11638.60034375,"end":11640.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11643.224093750003,"end":11643.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11644.422218750002,"end":11645.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11646.54846875,"end":11648.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11648.35409375,"end":11649.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11652.77534375,"end":11653.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11654.125343750002,"end":11655.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11656.487843750001,"end":11657.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11658.15846875,"end":11658.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11659.289093750001,"end":11660.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11661.297218750002,"end":11663.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11664.33471875,"end":11665.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11665.735343750002,"end":11667.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11667.473468750002,"end":11671.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11671.675343750001,"end":11673.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11673.750968750002,"end":11675.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11677.429718750001,"end":11679.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11677.581593750001,"end":11677.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11677.598468750002,"end":11678.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11678.003468750001,"end":11678.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11679.809093750002,"end":11683.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11683.96034375,"end":11685.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11685.023468750001,"end":11686.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11687.11596875,"end":11699.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11699.77221875,"end":11700.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11701.527218750001,"end":11740.32284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1741.209,"end":1766.54,"text":"好我們現在開會各位學者專家本院的委員媒體朋友以及在場的女士先生們大家早安大家好依據中華民國憲法徵修條文及立法院職權刑事法之規定總統彈劾案須經本院全體立法委員二分之一以上提議交付全院委員會審查審查後提出院會"},{"start":1767.94,"end":1794.695,"text":"經全體立法委員三分之二以上之決議向司法院大法官提出彈劾案本會期本院委員傅坤祺等及委員黃國昌等分別依上開規定對賴清德總統提出彈劾案之提議經第十五次會議決定在全院委員會審查彈劾案前與舉行兩場全院委員會公聽會"},{"start":1796.707,"end":1825.649,"text":"本院依院會決定舉行公聽會廣納各界意見昨天我們已經舉行第一場公聽會今天非常感謝在座的學者專家以及審查小組委員參加第二場的公聽會各位所發表的寶貴意見將作為本院首次審查彈劾案之參考再次感謝各位為本次公聽會所做的準備以及發言"},{"start":1827.183,"end":1849.235,"text":"針對今天公聽會進行的程序做以下之宣告一 發言時程每位學者專家發表意見時間為十分鐘審查小組委員每位詢問時間同為十分鐘本院委員發言完畢之後再由學者專家代表綜合答覆三十分鐘"},{"start":1850.055,"end":1864.28,"text":"因此 請各位學者專家發表高見後也能聽取本院各黨團所推派的委員代表之詢問發言最後 還請各位學者專家賜教答覆"},{"start":1865.14,"end":1887.158,"text":"二 發言順序先由學者專家發言次由審查小組委員發言最後再由學者專家綜合答覆相關的發言順序請參閱陳列於各位桌上的名單各黨團所舉建的學者專家審查小組委員如不在場或必要時"},{"start":1889.326,"end":1911.323,"text":"呃講"},{"start":1911.564,"end":1936.985,"text":"好 江副院長 各位委員還有各位與會的先進那今天參與這個公聽會會非常的榮幸那因為事關重要那我先用我這個比較是這個發言稿先做一些說明然後要是時間還有的話我會再做補充我想今天這個公聽會表面上是圍繞著這個賴清德總統他彈劾案所引發的爭議而召開"},{"start":1938.447,"end":1959.285,"text":"但是我認為如果我們只把焦點停留在彈劾案是否成案還有特定政治人物的去留恐失去我們真的值得警惕的問題這樣的注意這場爭議的核心不只是一個彈劾案而是台灣整個憲政體制在雙少數政府下"},{"start":1962.456,"end":1986.825,"text":"真正出現的制度的失靈甚至演變成整個民主運作的結構性的問題我們必須先說明的是這個彈劾案之所以被提出它直接的原因並非單一的政策的爭議而是近期整個在行政體系長期採取高度對抗的政治操作包括不附屬 不公佈 不執行這些做法"},{"start":1988.075,"end":2008.082,"text":"事實上這些行為已經超越一般政治攻防的範疇而是對既有的這種憲政秩序造成實質的衝擊當立法院依法通過的法案跟預算案無法通過正常的行政程序加以落實那行政跟立法之間原本應該有的制衡機制就等於是停擺"},{"start":2010.253,"end":2022.446,"text":"那這個民主制度也隨之空轉這正是現在這個少數政府在行政跟立法長期僵局下所暴露的這個結構性的困境那面對這樣子的這個困局"},{"start":2023.875,"end":2041.183,"text":"當然有人主張現行的憲政體制還是提供了一些制度性的解方,譬如像是復議、釋憲、不信任案,甚至倒閣。但是我們必須誠實地說,在目前政治結構跟實際運作的條件下,這些工具幾乎都沒有辦法發揮功用。"},{"start":2042.776,"end":2059.695,"text":"因為附議在國會有多數是在野黨掌握的情況下它這個立法結果不會改變它只會延長政治的對抗跟治理的停滯那釋憲則因為憲法法庭人數的不足跟人事提名的不當這個也包括未能獲得國會多數支持"},{"start":2061.159,"end":2078.378,"text":"導致整個司法審查的這個功能跟正當性均大幅的削弱那不信任案跟倒閣呢即便形式上能夠成功他也僅能更換行政院長甚至在實務上也未必能真的更換因為總統還是可以不經立法院的同意而再次任命同一個人"},{"start":2079.491,"end":2098.074,"text":"所以這個結果依然是什麼就是行政院長有責無權總統有權無責的憲政失衡狀況造成這個行政跟立法的僵局是不會鬆動的事實上我們目前這個問題的真正的根源是在我們對民主制衡的一個誤解"},{"start":2099.324,"end":2117.527,"text":"必須重申的是行政機關包括總統跟行政院長他們所提出來的法案跟預算本應該受國會多數的節制這不是阻擾施政而是民主制度中權力制衡的核心機制同樣的這些重要的人事任命包括大法官"},{"start":2118.618,"end":2143.044,"text":"考試院與監察委員未來的以及公平會 中選會國家通信傳播委員會等這些關鍵性的憲政或獨立機關它如果完全排除國會多數的參與未能體現權力的分享跟責任政治它實質效果也就等於不只是人事的延宕而會真正出現由行政權反覆提出國會不能接受的人選變成一種癱瘓的現象"},{"start":2146.505,"end":2161.681,"text":"事實上在少數政府的情境下權力不僅是要受到節制更應該被分享這也是為何在比較憲政的經驗中我們常以法國的左右共治作為重要參考法國總統選舉他會採兩輪投票"},{"start":2164.741,"end":2187.242,"text":"第一輪如果沒有人獲得過半數支持就會進入第二輪並由得票前兩高的人進行禁足最終當選者他必然是獲得過半數的選民授權不至於形成像我們現在的這種少數票總統而且總統一旦當選他也會以超然與黨派之上的國家領袖自居他會退出他也不會兼任"},{"start":2188.322,"end":2216.554,"text":"政黨的主席來凸顯他是全民總統的這個憲政角色而在國會如果真的出現分裂或多數更替的狀況下總統在任命總理時候也一定會尊重國會的多數生態實際由多數黨或者是多數聯盟的這個領袖出任革揮而形成很制度化並且可運作的這種左右共治那相較之下台灣目前的政治實踐是反其道而行"},{"start":2218.248,"end":2240.238,"text":"當制度協商被擱置取而代之的反而是政治的對抗跟民粹的動員比如之前以大規模的罷免企圖來改變國會結構如此發展不僅不能化解僵局反而使行政與立法之間的對抗持續升高甚至演變為少數政府透過行政權力結合民粹甚至是仇恨動員來主導國家的運作的狀況"},{"start":2243.92,"end":2262.69,"text":"而當這個行政體系拒絕回應多數民意,仍持續使用高度集中的權力,憲政秩序事實上已經遭到癱瘓,民族也可能退化成實質上的民選獨裁最後我們回到彈劾案本身,我必須承認在制度設計來看"},{"start":2264.332,"end":2291.145,"text":"我們成案的門檻非常高成功的機率非常有限但是這個彈劾案真正的意義是什麼它並不是在於是不是能夠成案而是在於它所引發的公眾討論跟民主的警訊它是一個提醒社會正視我們憲政運作危機的七手勢當制度失靈而又缺乏有效出口的時候社會必須被清楚地告知問題不只是政黨的對立或政治立場上的競爭"},{"start":2292.586,"end":2300.924,"text":"而是在整個 我們現在目前是以整個民主憲政體制作為犧牲甚至走向民選獨裁的這個方向作為代價來運作"},{"start":2302.984,"end":2325.128,"text":"那民主這個從來不是只是看選舉的結果它更是權力怎麼被限制被分享甚至被負責任的使用那我們今天這場公聽會若能夠讓我們能正視這個制度層次的問題而不只停留在政治動員跟對立之中才能讓民主政治台灣的民主政治找到一條真正的出路我在這邊再補充我剛才的這個發言"},{"start":2330.137,"end":2355.572,"text":"其實台灣現在今天談這個彈劾案真正的碰到的大問題就是我們真的在制度上設計上的大問題我必須跟各位報告其實我在大學裡面也教授政治學其實我們常問我們的學生一個政治學101的問題很簡單就是說全世界有哪個國家實施總統制他在政治經濟社會上都是很成功的"},{"start":2356.272,"end":2378.307,"text":"但是請不要再告訴我美國這個答案那學生們多數都很難想得出更好的答案坦白說啦其實事實上全世界很多國家都實施總統制而且越來越多但是這並不見得它就是一個對的制度我必須誠實的說所有的我們台灣的政黨在在野的時候都提出過其實應該往這個所謂的"},{"start":2381.629,"end":2402.595,"text":"內閣制來修正那我也很坦白的說可能當一旦在台灣這種制度下取得了總統大位他就變成一個不必負責任的這樣子的一個超級大的總統制的這個權力跟權威所以當然大家也不願意再去修正了這才是真實的問題那其實像昨天的公聽會我有聽"},{"start":2403.843,"end":2432.114,"text":"其實當然也有委員說我們其實今天好像是找錯對象了因為對象應該是行政院長可是我們也知道行政院長在目前的制度下其實他等於只是一個總統的執行長一個傀儡其實就算是把他倒閣了其實別的結構不會改變我想在野陣營他也不會接受說今天是重選了國會但是什麼都不改變所以他同時但是因為我們對總統是無法節制的"},{"start":2432.754,"end":2455.362,"text":"那我為什麼剛才特別在我的發言稿中提出所謂左右共治因為台灣最接近的制度其實確實是法國的這個制度我們跟他們最大的不同就在於說他們的總理會選出一定是遵循國會這個多數因為國會這個多數它本身就是一個人民選擇這樣子的一個結果"},{"start":2457.603,"end":2485.477,"text":"那但是在台灣卻是不用這樣子所以我們才會有真正這種少數總統少數票總統少數票國會的這樣子這個狀況造成今天這麼大的僵局那如果我們能夠學習像是法國的這樣的一個制度其實建立的所謂的真的這就是大聯合的這個政府我覺得台灣在制度上才能夠真正有機會往前再走一步否則的話今天剛才已經講過了所有的不管今天是釋憲的"},{"start":2486.477,"end":2515.769,"text":"富裕的就算是倒閣的其實都不能解決任何我們現在行政跟立法之間的僵局事實上我們是從制度面就已經出了大問題如果我們今天不去解決真正制度面的問題只用所謂的繼續現在沿用這樣子只能站在黨派的立場只能黨同伐異只能以少數押拔的方式繼續作為行政上的執政它的問題就永遠不能解決"},{"start":2516.189,"end":2521.531,"text":"以上謝謝好謝謝張祺祿教授下一位我們請陳怡凱教授發言謝謝主席各位委員各位在座的先進來賓大家好"},{"start":2531.584,"end":2545.652,"text":"那今天呢關於這個彈劾案呢申請人他提出的理由是說賴清德總統他違反了憲法第37條總統公佈法律均行政院院長之附屬"},{"start":2547.035,"end":2566.455,"text":"但是我們可以看出行政院院長根本沒有附屬所以說總統也沒有辦法去公佈法律所以從這一點來看賴總統並沒有違反憲法第37條因為這一條明擺的規定要先附屬總統才能夠公佈沒有附屬就根本就沒有公佈的餘地"},{"start":2568.276,"end":2593.769,"text":"這才是合乎憲法第37條然後申請者又指責說這個賴總統違反這個憲法第72條就是這個復議案如果說就是說被退對不起違反這個行政院長違反這個徵修條文第三條第二項第二款也就是說退和復議如果是被"},{"start":2595.53,"end":2619.344,"text":"維持原案的話那麼行政院院長就應該要接受那麼目前跟包括昨天的這個討論呢重點都在所謂的徵修條文第三條第二項第二款所謂的應接受是不是文字上所謂的或是說像申請者所想當然爾的是不是說的意思就是行政院院長就應該要"},{"start":2621.147,"end":2632,"text":"接受 然後變成有接受的義務然後變成有附屬的義務然後總統就有公佈的義務是不是一連串的這個義務然後呢"},{"start":2633.309,"end":2649.527,"text":"然後憂鬱沒有按照這樣的一個義務之旅行所以賴總統跟這個行政院長都違反了憲法那這一條是最大的癥結點所以呢我昨天已經有去澄清了那我們今天再強調一遍就是說這個條文根據這個"},{"start":2653.905,"end":2679.126,"text":"大法官的四字五二零号的解释他明明白白的讲就宪法第五十七条是行政院跟立法院之间的制衡那昨天的学者讲到这个附属呢是对于总统的制衡那这里是有误解的因为呢在制衡的来源呢他是这个附属呢他是为总统"},{"start":2680.205,"end":2697.009,"text":"未來要去公佈法律的行為去負責而不是去制衡總統而是應該是去制衡國會才對那麼四字五二零號也已經明明白白的講這個制度這個設計是行政院對立法院的制衡"},{"start":2698.103,"end":2713.723,"text":"然後是不是徵修條文第三條第二項第二款把它這個辭職把它改掉改成應接受因此這裡的字痕就會改變大法官在4至520號也明明白白的講了"},{"start":2716.005,"end":2737.036,"text":"講說這裡沒有改變這個制衡仍然繼續維持下去那我們就要去討論什麼是行政院跟立法院在憲法第57條的這裡所謂的制衡這制衡不是大家投投票表決然後就相安無事過去就憲法第57條如果說退回服務役被維持原案的話"},{"start":2737.996,"end":2760.071,"text":"這時候行政院院長有兩條路一條呢憲法就規定說他要嘛就應辭辭要不然就是應接受那麼在過去呢憲法學者呢包括劉慶瑞在他的中華民國憲法要義以及李鴻熙教授呢都解釋其實這個解釋也是台大的通說啦就是說呢這一條呢"},{"start":2760.931,"end":2780.596,"text":"就是說如果說在退回富裕被維持原案的話那麼這裡就是一個倒閣因為根據制衡的原理就是不信任投票的意思所以行政院長在這個時候就只能辭職而且是被辭職並沒有可選擇說我不要辭職 那我接受反對的見解是說"},{"start":2782.145,"end":2797.924,"text":"這也是少數見解但當時也有存在就是說呢五十七條有一個總統的這個復議核可權所以總統不是虛位元首那在這裡呢沒有發生主動的倒閣的一個效果而是呢行政院長呢可以選擇是"},{"start":2799.628,"end":2828.931,"text":"接受那无论是赞成说这个倒格说或是不自动倒格说都是认为这一个条文明明白白的就是行政院跟立法院之间的制衡而且明明白白的讲这里跟倒格是有关系的只是说一个是说没有立即发生倒格的效果一说是说必须倒格的效果必须辞职另一说是说没有立即发生倒格的效果可以选择"},{"start":2830.236,"end":2843.155,"text":"接受所以這裡的接受不是說這個法案它照全盤接收的意思而是不發生立即倒閣的效果是這個意思而已那麼徵修條文第三條第二項"},{"start":2844.414,"end":2871.705,"text":"以及第二款跟第三款把這個延續過來只不過說本來是行政院他選擇是辭職或者是接受倒閣或是沒有倒閣那麼現在是變成說僵局還是在也就是說這裡的僵局沒有解決也就制衡在這裡並不是說大家投投票就沒事了而是在這裡形成了立法院跟行政院的意識不一致對這個重大法案的意識不一致"},{"start":2872.085,"end":2897.651,"text":"那這時候呢反而皮球呢是回到了國會這裡這個徵修條文的改變呢就變成說國會可選擇是不是要發動倒閣所以就變成是還有這個第三款的這個倒閣權那麼從這裡的解釋來看的話呢也就是說這僵局呢目前根據我們這個權力制衡的解釋呢並沒有解決而是說留待國會呢再進一步發動倒閣"},{"start":2898.931,"end":2915.265,"text":"那他如果不倒閣的話呢就表示他要妥協他妥協要怎麼辦呢就是法案呢要重新要跟行政院再重新去談出一個各退一步談出一個結果出來所以這裡並沒有所謂的因此呢"},{"start":2915.925,"end":2933.294,"text":"照文藝上從歷史的發展57條的體系性解釋跟第三條第二項第二款第三款的這樣的一個以及所謂的權力制衡的原理在這裡並沒有硬要逼著行政院院長要照盤全說立法院的這個復議案被維持原案的這個結果"},{"start":2934.395,"end":2959.002,"text":"那否則的話問題就解決了根本就不需要再發動倒閣權了但是我們延續過去的這裡所謂的應接受並不是照單全說立法院這時候他退回復義被反夥決之後這樣的一個意識行政院他在這裡仍然是意見不一致那就等著被倒閣但是立法院又不發動倒閣這時候唯一的解釋就是必須妥協而已"},{"start":2959.922,"end":2980.73,"text":"或者是要提起釋憲提起這個憲法訴訟機關正義的這樣的一個憲法訴訟那這裡憲法並不是說都沒有解決的途徑那麼接著就是說另一個也是我剛剛也有提到過了那麼這個附屬他其實就是對抗國會那其實他的意義就是要"},{"start":2983.67,"end":3004.76,"text":"對總統未來他如果公佈法律的話他要為總統這個行為負責所以附屬是為總統的行為負責的他不可能去制衡這個總統他是制衡國會的因此根據德國的學說跟通說的見解跟實務的見解行政院院長就是他的總理他總理他在"},{"start":3006.34,"end":3021.884,"text":"認為法律的程序有瑕疵以及它的內容有違反憲法的時候它可以拒絕附屬總統也可以拒絕公佈因為總統跟總理他們都有單獨的這樣的一個審查權"},{"start":3025.249,"end":3043.825,"text":"這個申請案裡面又說那總統自己解釋憲法自己說這裡的法案違憲然後他就拒絕公佈那是不是總統就是僭越了大法官的職權呢事實上各個憲法機關在行使職權的時候都必須自行先解釋憲法看看他有沒有違憲"},{"start":3045.086,"end":3061.023,"text":"那麼立法院職權行使法第十一條法案在第三讀的時候除非有違憲否則的話只能做文字上的修正這是條文明明白白的規定的也就是說立法委員必須要自行先解釋憲法"},{"start":3061.744,"end":3089.456,"text":"看看這個條文目前要通過的這個法案有沒有違憲若有的話呢要回來調整也就是說立法委員自己也是先解釋了憲法所以並不能說總統是根據他的判斷這裡是有明顯重大的違憲因此就說他僭越了大法官的職權而是每一個憲法機關呢通通必須要遵守憲法都必須要先進行這樣的一個解釋那因此呢綜合我們的這樣的說明呢那總統呢在這裡"},{"start":3091.457,"end":3101.222,"text":"的行為他可以拒絕事實上他沒有他現在也還不到他拒絕公佈因為行政院長根本都還沒有去"},{"start":3103.221,"end":3127.487,"text":"他沒有附屬的話就行政院長拒絕附屬賴總統剛好也沒有可以公佈的一個憲法上的權限因此在這裡並沒有發生說他有違法的問題那麼從德國以及實務上都是說這兩個行政院院長跟總統他們是有權利單獨來進行這樣的一個審查在這個明顯重大違憲是可以拒絕的因此賴總統跟"},{"start":3129.207,"end":3157.056,"text":"跟行政院長並沒有違憲的問題謝謝好謝謝陳教授下一位我們請張亞中教授發言主席各位委員各位先進感謝立法院舉辦這場公聽會這不只是一場程序性的會議而是一個關乎台灣民主憲政是否仍然存活的重要時刻今天我想談的主題是賴清德總統的行為當然已經違憲"},{"start":3158.476,"end":3171.748,"text":"但是因為政治因素彈劾已不再可能當彈劾已經不再可能的時候總統是否已經走上了民選獨裁台灣要這樣的民主嗎首先我誠懇的"},{"start":3173.177,"end":3196.665,"text":"请所有的与会者在今天的公听会中带着两个重要的东西来发言一个是知识一个是良心请暂时放下政党的立场不要先问你站在哪一边而要先问这样做对不对不要急着替任何政党辩护而要先替中华民国的宪法与台湾的民主来负责"},{"start":3197.981,"end":3223.54,"text":"我期待今天在这个场域里出现的发言是建立在专业的知识上是出自于内心良知的判断而不是为了迎合立场服务权利请不要在这样一个攸关宪政命运的公开场合昧着良心违背专业说出自己明知站不住脚的话探索道理最基本的方法就是将心比心换位思考"},{"start":3224.491,"end":3245.67,"text":"我也誠懇的請民進黨的朋友想一想如果今天做出同樣行為的不是賴清德而是一位國民黨籍的總統你們會接受嗎你們會說這是核憲嗎如果答案是否定的那麼今天真正該被捍衛的就不是立場而是憲法與民主的底線"},{"start":3247.096,"end":3263.053,"text":"今天这场公听会的核心不只是总统是否出现因受弹劾的宪政为师,而是一个更根本的问题,当宪政制衡失灵,民主是否正在走向失控,而人民是否还愿意清醒地面对。"},{"start":3264.346,"end":3288.448,"text":"我先談一個最基本卻常常被遺忘的概念民主政治最基本的原則人民是主人選出來的是公僕而不是新的主人但是近年來我們看到的卻是權力越來越集中制衡越來越被視為障礙賴清的總統不但拒絕國會制衡甚至把憲法視為可以隨意揉捏的麵團一樣"},{"start":3290.805,"end":3314.281,"text":"是他权力操作的工具把支持者视为他动员的支援把异议者视为必须清除的对象这已经不是民主治理而是唯我独尊的权力支配我要清楚地说总统必须一线行政而不是用个人的政治意志来取代宪法"},{"start":3315.523,"end":3339.563,"text":"总统是人民选出的最大的一个公仆而不是皇帝也不是可以为所欲为的统治者总统应该遵守的宪法而不是他手上的葵花宝典总统你是人民的公仆而不是那个日月神教的教主任我行中华民国不是你说了算今天的发言我分为四个重点来说明"},{"start":3340.595,"end":3357.326,"text":"第一点赖清德的多项作为已经明确地跨越了宪法的红线完全符合弹劾的要件包括下面五个刚刚几位学者已经讲得非常清楚我就简短地跳过去第一个不公复宪法的违宪"},{"start":3358.126,"end":3378.653,"text":"立法院三讀通過財政收支劃分法修正案行政院賦予遭到否決後總統依法基因公佈但他卻選擇拒絕這不是他的政治判斷而是無財量空間的憲法義務拒絕公佈本身就是違憲第二個不附屬的制度性違憲"},{"start":3379.895,"end":3408.479,"text":"各位在多次修宪以后我们国家的宪法已经倾向于总统制行政院长附属法律是程序上的义务而不是他个人的政治选项赖清德不仅没有要求行政院长依法附属反而纵容他以不附属作为对抗立法院的政治工具破坏了总统行政院长和立法院之间的宪政协力关系这属于制度性的违宪第三个不执行法律的违宪"},{"start":3410.464,"end":3422.264,"text":"宪法申修条文规定负意遭到否决后行政院长立刻就应该接受然而行政部门却以不附属不执行的方式变相的否定国会的决议这已经是实质的危险"},{"start":3423.612,"end":3452.034,"text":"第四个违宪 践踏宪政分立的违宪是否违宪唯有判断标准的司法院大法官行政部门却自行否定立法院通过的法律效益形同于总统与立法院形同于总统与行政院兼任大法官行政权遣越了司法权自行否定的法律效益严重地践踏宪政上的权力分立第五个违宪 破坏民主制衡的违宪"},{"start":3453.052,"end":3480.063,"text":"透过不公布不附属不执行行政权全面的凌驾立法权使立法院在总统任内几乎没有办法制衡行政权这种系统性的破坏民主制衡形成了超级大总统台湾实质上走向了宪政的独裁化总结而言赖清德默许甚至主导不公布不附属不执行国会通过的法律系统性的否定立法行为"},{"start":3481.431,"end":3503.988,"text":"这已经不是政策的争议而是总统拒绝遵守宪法宪政秩序正在被破坏赖清德已经可以自行决定哪些法律是有效哪些是无效立法院已经形同虚设民主制衡机制名存实亡赖清德的违宪行为当然已经完全符合弹劾的红线"},{"start":3505.35,"end":3533.351,"text":"第二个 赖基德上台以后已经呈现清楚的民选独裁的治理模式我简单的分为几点第一点 他把当双少数的处境转换成全面的对抗国会当总统将未配合行政权等同于敌对势力或杂质的时候其实民主就被简化成为赢者全拿输者晋升这就是民主独裁的典型特征"},{"start":3534.5,"end":3559.113,"text":"第二个他滥用话语权压制异议赖政府频繁以国安反渗透抗中保台为理由将不同政治立场监督声音甚至合法的政治主张都贴上了危害国家安全的标签国安经常被无限上纲成为合理化的集权打压反对力量的工具政治的反对不再被视为民主的常态而被视为不忠诚"},{"start":3560.27,"end":3586.385,"text":"第三个他在司法与检调高度的政治化形成寒蝉效应当赖清德执政对在野政治人物异议者的司法动作高度密集同时对于他执政阵营的相关争议却呈现明显的办案迟缓或者低调处理当人民普遍认为骂政府会有风险的时候即使我们台湾还有选举但是民主的实质已经被掏空了"},{"start":3587.245,"end":3613.581,"text":"第四个刚刚也讲了他以政治动员和大罢免来取代制度内的制衡面对国会的制衡赖尽的不是以选举制度内的协商而是动员政治力量情绪诉求与大罢免的作为企图改变立法院现有的政党结构比例当动员被用来迫使议会屈服人民的力量沦为领袖操纵的工具这正是民选独裁最危险的转折点"},{"start":3614.605,"end":3642.039,"text":"第五个他拒绝自我节制否定宪法的惯例我们知道宪政不是钻漏洞的比赛当最高的权力者只问能不能做而不问该不该做的时候民主必然会迅速的对话总结而言赖清德的确是透过选举上台但是他的作为逐步瓦解制衡压缩意义集中权力完全拒绝自我节制与反省这正是民选独裁的标准路径"},{"start":3643.035,"end":3653.222,"text":"第三个部分我想谈的是台湾的民主已经从是非之争退化到立场之争弹劾制度名存实亡是民主宪政失灵的警讯"},{"start":3654.71,"end":3672.945,"text":"各位,彭河需要三分之二立委同意,在现在高度的对立党纪至上的政治文化下,几乎不可能启动。问题不在于门槛,而在于只要总统来自于执政党,便即使明显的违宪,也会被像对面一样全面的护航。"},{"start":3673.959,"end":3690.095,"text":"当台湾的政治只剩下立场不问是非当宪法只在有利的时候被高举不利的时候被践踏那么弹劾制度就从制衡的工具变成了纵容危险的保护网那么最后一点当宪政已经失灵人们愿不愿意觉醒"},{"start":3691.755,"end":3713.762,"text":"各位,我们必须诚实面对一个残酷的现实,在法律上弹劾已经具备条件,在政治上几乎不可能完成。那么这种制度存在却无法运作,权力失衡却无法修正,违宪明确却无法救责的现象,正是台湾民主制度的最大悲剧。出路只有两条,第一条,总统自我节制,回归宪政。"},{"start":3714.582,"end":3731.212,"text":"这在于赖清德的疑念之间但是看起来非常困难那么第二个就是我们人民要与在野的力量集体的觉醒用行动来守住我们的宪法这条路是最根本的因为宪政的独裁者从来不会用温柔的劝说而自我退让"},{"start":3732.403,"end":3747.07,"text":"各位我們在野黨基本上要堅持支持者也不能只是在網路上憤怒而不願意走上街頭同樣的我希望民進黨的支持者也不要只在乎立場而不願意用憲法而不願意讓憲法繼續被踐踏扭曲"},{"start":3748.931,"end":3777.221,"text":"根本不在乎而一些中間選民又選擇冷漠犬儒事不關己那麼最終的結果只有一個獨裁者得逞憲法崩解台灣的民主名存實亡最後我想講一句話今天我們討論的其實不只是賴清德是否應該被彈劾而是中華民國的憲法還要不要救台灣的民主還要不要繼續的沉淪謝謝大家謝謝張教授接下來請林俊宏律師發言"},{"start":3784.261,"end":3810.62,"text":"謝謝主席很榮幸今天來參與今天的公聽會我想今天來談彈劾總統這件事情我想我們是不是要先回到一個本質來看待今天到底發生了什麼事情在我們的憲政上我自己看到的是目前就是憲法兩個權力上的僵局行政權跟立法權的僵局"},{"start":3811.741,"end":3825.559,"text":"那我们行政权跟立法权的僵局在制度上有没有解我们在宪法的制度设计上有解怎么解我们依照宪法战修条文第三条第二项第三款"},{"start":3826.814,"end":3853.609,"text":"這個時候我們的制度設計上應該是要對行政院院長提出不信任案然後進行國會改選然後訴諸新的民意由新的民意來決定來處理說這個行政權跟立法權之間僵局該如何解決這是一條很清楚而且也是一條很成熟的一個憲政的民主路徑這個在其他國家其實也都可以觀察得到"},{"start":3854.83,"end":3878.597,"text":"當然有很多的先進都會講說那好像我們的行政權除了我們的行政院長外好像還有個總統那總統怎麼辦那我們的憲法機制裡面怎麼處理其實我們在憲法機制裡面在處理總統的部分大概有兩個工具我想這個之前先進大概也都有提到一個是彈劾就是我們今天坐在這裡的原因另外一個是罷免"},{"start":3880.145,"end":3906.807,"text":"那當然也有人認為說這兩種工具不夠啦其實都沒辦法實質去處理到總統那怎麼辦還有一個方法修憲啊我們覺得我們制度不足的時候我們是不是可以考慮修憲呢那可是在沒有修憲之前制度給我們就是這兩條路沒有第三條路那我要說明一下這兩條路在談什麼事情這兩條路談何在處理的是法律責任"},{"start":3908.343,"end":3934.695,"text":"罷免要處理的原則上是政治責任我想這兩條路徑在我們的制度設計上是清楚的從我們的彈劾的制度來看我們最後的審查的機關是誰是憲法法庭那憲法法庭它處理的不會是政治問題它要處理的是說我們的憲法規範有沒有遭到重大的違反所以彈劾的審查標的合理的理解就是總統有沒有違反了憲法的重大義務或規範"},{"start":3935.769,"end":3958.309,"text":"至於政策好不好決定對不對這個方向大家喜不喜歡那是政治責任的問題大家要走的是罷免不是彈劾接下來我們再回來看看說我們這兩個提案的理由第一個理由他談的是行政院長不附屬這件事情"},{"start":3959.639,"end":3973.224,"text":"其實昨天的討論跟剛剛的幾位先進的說明我們大概可以得到一個結論行政院院長的附屬權應該是在憲政上行政院院長的獨立的權限"},{"start":3976.902,"end":4002.219,"text":"憲政上行政院長的獨立權限這點我昨天到現在聽下來其實好像沒有太大的爭議那當然中間有一些小的不同的看法有的人認為說行政院長的附屬權是要來對抗總統的有些人認為說這個附屬權除了可以對抗總統之外也可以對抗立法院好 不管他可以對抗的對象是誰這個權利是行政院長的"},{"start":4003.703,"end":4025.499,"text":"如果大家覺得是說行政院長去行使這個權利或不行使這個權利是好或者是不好那接下來的問題是那你要追究的人是誰應該是行政院長吧應該是行政院長啊那怎麼會去選擇說用這個理由說我們要來試試看要來彈劾總統"},{"start":4027.102,"end":4046.728,"text":"所以我們在這邊現在我們看到的一個狀況是什麼我們用一個不是屬於總統職權的行為然後也不是總統的權利要去追究總統的法律責任甚至要彈劾總統這個在憲法的理解上至少我在法律的理解上我認為是完全說不通的完全沒有道理"},{"start":4049.555,"end":4065.248,"text":"如果真的要彈劾總統那從制度上你就要告訴我們說總統你做了什麼違反了憲法的哪個重大義務而不是把行政院長的職權的選擇轉化成對總統的彈劾理由這個在制度的選擇上其實很奇怪"},{"start":4066.297,"end":4092.196,"text":"所以從這個結果來看的話其實讓人懷疑說提案人的想法到底是在想什麼他是真的要追究法律責任嗎還是彈劾只是本質上它只是一個工具化的行使它有其他的特殊的目的呢第二個我們看到提案理由上有第二個理由是關於台積電赴美投資這個部分這個在這兩天的討論其實比較少一點當然這一題"},{"start":4093.971,"end":4118.037,"text":"比較單純因為其實它好像不是法律問題它看起來好像比較像是一個政策決定那如果是一個政策決定你可以喜歡你也可以不喜歡你可以支持你也可以反對你也可以認為這個方向是錯的可是這是政治責任的範疇啊剛剛跟各位分享的是說政治責任的範疇要怎麼處理好像也不是要走彈劾這條路徑"},{"start":4119.909,"end":4147.388,"text":"更何況我們現在看看說從現實狀況來說台積電目前的經營狀況我覺得它是一張每個人都想要得到的一張股票我也蠻想得到的只是我沒有真正要檢討的是說在這個制度上到底這邊這個是不是能夠成為彈劾的理由那要檢討的也只能是政治選擇的取捨而不是憲法層面上的取捨的違反"},{"start":4148.22,"end":4172.521,"text":"那既然這樣的話如果說我們認為說把台積電變得這麼好應該要負政治責任那就負政治責任啊讓大家看看說這個好還是不好啊所以從這個來看的話也是可以知道的就是說這個提案的理由好像也不是彈劾要處理的事情啊那我們硬是要把它放在彈劾的框架裡面結果是什麼我想大家心裡有數啊"},{"start":4173.823,"end":4195.858,"text":"所以我們在理解完這兩個提案理由之後,其實我們不難得出一個結論。今天大家坐在這邊討論彈劾總統在實質上、在憲政的意義上、在程序上或是結論目標的達成上是沒有意義的。"},{"start":4197.864,"end":4214.589,"text":"不是因為彈劾制度不重要是因為這兩個提案本身就不可能用來真的彈劾總統所以這也就像我剛剛說的讓人家合理的懷疑說提案人真正的想法到底是不是要啟動一個憲法意義上的彈劾程序"},{"start":4217.093,"end":4241.991,"text":"那接下來要說,那好啦,不管怎麼樣,提案人還是啟動了嘛,還是做了這件事情。我想要再提的就是,那總統要不要就這個事情到立法院來,來進行聽證。我想這件事情也蠻單純的,因為113,憲判9,已經講得很清楚了,總統並沒有出席的法律義務跟憲法義務。"},{"start":4244.022,"end":4270.205,"text":"立法院可以邀請總統來可是立法院也只能邀請至於總統有沒有義務到立法院來從法條上 從憲法的制度上目前看不出來有這樣的義務更何況我剛剛前面提到的我們回到實質上這兩個"},{"start":4272.422,"end":4291.653,"text":"彈劾的理由 主要的彈劾理由這兩個彈劾的理由就不是對於真正法律責任的追究所進行的理由來說明啊那這樣子的話立法院去邀請總統出席的必要性跟正當性當然也就更加的薄弱啦所以從這個提案來說的話其實我心裡覺得真的是"},{"start":4300.888,"end":4327.328,"text":"有點耗費大家的資源國家寶貴的資源所以我想回到事件的本質目前的狀況就是憲法權力間的僵局行政權跟立法權的僵局在權力分立底下每個權力都是一樣的都是平等的自然就會有權力之間不同意見的時候就會有權力之間有事情沒辦法解決的時候"},{"start":4329.417,"end":4354.948,"text":"有些國家有完整或者是比較好的解決的制度路徑我們國家憲法上的解決的制度路徑就是島格所以認為說我們目前碰到這樣的僵局我們就回到我們合理的制度路徑去我們要回到島格的這個路徑再次提到是說如果我們對於我們現在現有的憲政路徑制度如果設計不滿意"},{"start":4357.452,"end":4381.591,"text":"我們覺得應該要增加其他的路徑或進行其他的設計我們應該要開始討論的是修憲而不是在現有的框架之下啟動一個永遠得不到結果的路徑然後耗費寶貴的國家資源讓大家一起坐在這邊做一件沒有辦法永遠達不到目標的事情以上"},{"start":4384.124,"end":4411.714,"text":"好 謝謝林律師下一位我們請彭錦鵬教授發言主席各位先進很榮幸能夠參與這個公聽會但是我的內心其實是感覺到非常非常的遺憾彈劾這件事情在第一個案子裡面講得非常清楚我基本上我是贊同的"},{"start":4412.642,"end":4438.884,"text":"但是第二個案子很顯然並沒有很精準的來針對總統所應該扮演的憲法上的一些義務所以我今天的發言包含兩個部分第一個部分賴清德是一個違憲的總統第二個部分賴清德是違憲慣犯的總統剛剛亞中兄講得非常好"},{"start":4440.352,"end":4462.615,"text":"所有的理論我也都支持但是今天我們公聽會的重點其實只有一個那就是總統到底有沒有違憲所以我們必須要來加以審理但是我也必須要講說我們這一次的第一個案子的彈劾案基本上是宣誓性的"},{"start":4463.735,"end":4479.853,"text":"原因是就算立法院討論了然後經過所有的這些流程但是要得到三分之二立法委員的同意那很顯然幾乎是不可能所以我今天的發言其實是針對著我們的民進黨立法委員"},{"start":4486.431,"end":4512.166,"text":"原因是你能夠正視一個總統居然可以光明正大像無賴一樣的違憲嗎因為我們從第一個案子裡面可以很清楚看到所有的程序一路都已經走到了復議案而復議是失敗的"},{"start":4513.581,"end":4541.395,"text":"在宪法的规定里边非常清楚互议失败从2025年的12月5日互议失败开始算现在已经是41天了这41天里边宪法没有任何的明文规定说那要怎么办如果总统不公布的话怎么办宪法是没有一个是虚制的"},{"start":4543.186,"end":4570.944,"text":"每一個字都要遵行當代表人民的立法院的多數通過了法律了總統就只能夠公佈不公佈的責任必須大概要由憲法法院去審理但是在這之前"},{"start":4572.025,"end":4598.018,"text":"我相信總統應該要做的是說我用什麼樣的理由來爭取全民的同意而壓迫國民黨跟民眾黨再次修改這個收支發分法在政治上只有這樣的否則的話你就是違憲所以這違憲的現實呢就讓我們想起說賴總統現在正在進入"},{"start":4601.004,"end":4624.111,"text":"一個階段叫做不進市議會的2.0版而且已經四十一天了彈劾畢竟是憲法裡面終極的究責條款我們要特別慎重但是遺憾的是"},{"start":4625.93,"end":4653.462,"text":"衡量賴清德在首罰附憲的記錄上充滿瑕疵甚至出現極為嚴重的違憲慣犯的記錄那麼受到立法院的彈劾我覺得是有必要的那我第二部分我就進入談到賴清德是違憲慣犯的總統第一項不進市議會賴清德擔任台南市長長達八個月"},{"start":4656.477,"end":4666.56,"text":"那個天數有所變動但是差不多就是八個月市府官員不進議會被監察院稱作憲政的惡例加以彈劾監察院的彈劾文裡邊認為這一舉動是首開地方自治史上官員集體不進議會之惡例違反地方制度法"},{"start":4683.891,"end":4711.284,"text":"宣誓條例的規定嚴重灼傷現代民主法治國基本原則欲越憲法與地方制度法規範地方自治團體首長行政權之基本界限架空地方立法權動搖民主社會基本核心這一段彈劾文剛剛好就可以用在這一次的彈劾案也就是"},{"start":4712.182,"end":4729.498,"text":"他蔑視了民主跟法治的基本原則要守法守憲第二點賴清德主導大罷免否定中華民國憲政架構違背總統誓詞"},{"start":4736.095,"end":4762.741,"text":"當2024年1月13號選舉那一天晚上大概7點半的時候台灣2300萬同胞透過選舉就已經確定了嘲笑野大的事實在民進黨陳水扁在任的時候他也是同樣的情況但是他基本上是遵守憲法規定的"},{"start":4763.86,"end":4782.107,"text":"縱然他也覺得很委屈可是他也都遵守憲法規定賴清德在大選之後立刻立刻立刻附和民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民推動大罷免換句話說台灣人民在2024年1月13號的選舉"},{"start":4793.414,"end":4812.185,"text":"賴清德是不接受這個結果的那是太嚴重的事情了這不是我講的也不是賴清德講的是柯建民講的說推動大罷免賴清德密謀大罷免"},{"start":4813.407,"end":4838.556,"text":"然後2024大選之後馬上就決定要搞大罷免他每週三固定和總統賴清德開會並報告各項步驟總統皆知情換句話說賴清德主導大罷免否定中華民國人民的"},{"start":4839.827,"end":4868.524,"text":"民主定期合法選舉的合法性這太可恥了推動大罷免在本質上就是違憲的行為否定合法定期選舉的合法性否定民意的多數否定中華民國憲法的憲政架構總而言之它就是否定中華民國憲法違背總統誓詞於必遵守憲法盡忠執著"},{"start":4871.018,"end":4896.523,"text":"第三點賴清德違背積極提名大法官的憲法義務我是憲法大法官任期制度的設計者憲法徵修條文第五條如果稱之為彭錦鵬條款也是正確的第五條的條款跟各位報告也是我第一次公開的講"},{"start":4898.508,"end":4918.747,"text":"條文的文字就是我們最受尊敬的吳庚大法官幫忙我抄你條文的。基於我們當時有紳士協議,我沒有在他生前公布,但是我現在可以告訴各位,確實就是這樣子。"},{"start":4920.902,"end":4948.87,"text":"憲法徵求條文第五條規定的是大法官15人並以其中一人為院長一人為副院長由總統提名立法院同意任命在我們的憲法訴訟法裡面規定大法官人數應任期屆滿辭職免職或死亡"},{"start":4950.051,"end":4974.081,"text":"未打15人總統應於2個月內補足提名而大法官現有總額要10人以上才能夠參與評議且同意違憲宣告人數不得低於9人但是我們剛剛發生的事情是5個大法官就"},{"start":4975.407,"end":4986.918,"text":"公然的 毫不支持的沒有任何的法學修養的這種情況之下公佈所謂的憲法判決案"},{"start":4988.57,"end":5011.127,"text":"所以總結來講我要說的是賴總統違憲而且是違憲的慣犯他應該要好好的深自反省否則我們未來的四年未來的三年大概也會碰到大法官人數一直空缺而沒有辦法審核他的"},{"start":5012.495,"end":5035.446,"text":"彈劾案就算民進黨的立法委員同意彈劾案好謝謝彭教授下一位我們請周威廷局長發言好主席大家好各位早安我想我今天也是跟我們彭老師一樣懷著一顆沉重的心情來促進這場公聽會因為我們要討論的是我們中華民國的總統彈劾的問題"},{"start":5041.57,"end":5068.139,"text":"中華民國總統彈劾的問題在現場諸多學者專家老師面前我當然不算學者甚至連專家也不算但是我是一個從事警職42年的老警察為了我們警察退休金的不當被砍山多年來我寫了將近50多篇的文章投書各大媒體不斷為我們警察的權益為我們警察爭公道但是呢"},{"start":5072.385,"end":5079.61,"text":"這個政府給我們答案永遠是將警察視同一般人緣 橫憑考量彈劾"},{"start":5086.707,"end":5113.927,"text":"就是整屆公務人員有沒有違法失職在違法的部分我想也都專家學者都已經討論到我請就我們賴慶德總統失職的部分來做個探討失職簡單的說是說在職守上有沒有疏忽職責有沒有善盡職責有沒有為而不為 為而不當當為而不為 不當而而為我就有最熟悉的警察退休金被砍三來討論"},{"start":5117.096,"end":5136.47,"text":"我想在年金改革一時我們警察人就認為我們應該跟同志性高的軍人所得替代率等同結果呢我們的結果就是剛才講過的適同一般公務人員 和平考量但是真的有和平考量嗎就以軍人來說軍人有國軍醫院 榮民總醫院 三軍總醫院"},{"start":5148.294,"end":5169.591,"text":"總共我算得過 有16所 各位有沒有聽過有一所警察醫院行政院底下有國軍退出軍官兵輔導委員會各位有沒有聽過輔導警察的委員會 或者是司 或者科 或者局處警察又有8萬多人 警察很多都是50歲 50歲退休他們也需要有第二春 可是這個政府有照顧過他們"},{"start":5172.97,"end":5200.82,"text":"基於尊重軍人跟老師一百零一年前軍人跟警察是免所得罪的警察不但沒有免所得罪甚至我們是司法警察連司法津貼都領不到教師有將近三個月的寒暑假我們警察 全國警察放一天假試試看看這個社會亂成什麼樣子公務員 朝九晚五每天上班下班回家吃晚飯"},{"start":5202.304,"end":5227.156,"text":"例假日造休 警察可以這樣子嗎所以有感於此在113年10月份我在聯合報投書了一篇錦霄出生入死權益呢副標題是為接年殉職的同仁感到不值為什麼不值"},{"start":5231.311,"end":5258.849,"text":"我們沒有受到公平的待遇但是危險性最高根據內政部統計106年到114年警察因公死亡的人數有47個人平均每年9.4個人因公受傷的人4837個人每年平均967個人換句話說每年我們警察因公傷亡的人數是所有軍人公務員教師的總和還要多可見我們警察工作是多麼的危險多麼的辛勞"},{"start":5259.966,"end":5276.38,"text":"根據那警政署的統計,2011年到2021年,警察平均的死亡年齡是71.69歲。我們全國民平均的年齡是,死亡年齡是79.84歲。我們警察退休後,早死了8.15年。自由時報2017年3月20號統計,100年到104年,警察平均的死亡年齡是69.6歲。"},{"start":5284.076,"end":5307.736,"text":"我們平均國人平均死亡年齡78.84歲換句話說我們早死了9.24歲總而言之我們比一般的國民警察退休後早死了八九年為什麼僥倖活到退休的還會早死呢早死了八九年就是因為我們超時工作日夜顛倒 勤務不正常 壓力大甚至讓他還記得宜蘭最近副總統到宜蘭去"},{"start":5315.085,"end":5340.487,"text":"一個警察在休假還被叫回來結果被撤職撞傷臟器破裂大腿骨折可見我們警察工作是多麼的辛苦多麼的危險可是呢這個政府給了我們公平的待遇如果說公務機關的人員是這個政府的員工或者子弟總統行政院長就是大家長"},{"start":5343.083,"end":5367.757,"text":"隔壁鄰居都看不下去了認為說你不該孤獨 你的孩子 你的孩子 你的員工所以行政院藍白立委在去年1月三讀通過了警察人員人事條例35條修正案要恢復我們的所值替代率甚至民眾黨黃國昌主席"},{"start":5371.055,"end":5395.529,"text":"張祺凱立委也都多次公開說明民眾黨經過兩次民調70%民意支持警察的年改提高可是呢這個法律三途通過總統公告我們的行政院依然認為自然難行據橫評考量連預算都不編 甚至申請釋憲暫時處分"},{"start":5400.854,"end":5429.842,"text":"有樣學樣軍人待遇條例教職人員撫恤之前退職條例公務人員撫恤之前退職辦法停砍1.5%也是一樣行政院仍然認為自然難行申請釋憲考試院比照辦理"},{"start":5431.735,"end":5450.699,"text":"他們剋誰的十三名會剋誰是五人大法官人數不足的五人大法官會做違憲解釋總統身為五院院長五院之首獨攬了行政權獨攬了司法權甚至剝奪了立法院的立法權這樣的憲政危機我們不應該提出來彈劾不應該緊張嗎我們民眾不應該覺得恐懼嗎"},{"start":5478.089,"end":5506.22,"text":"然而我們賴清德總統在這樣的情形之下仍然悍然一意孤行地堅持到底我在這裡提出來前勞動部長何佩珊接受訪問說過外界不要迷失"},{"start":5507.216,"end":5516.861,"text":"不要以為砍年金才是改革強調撥補砍年金才是改革不要以為砍年金才是改革強調撥補也是改革我也藉由這個機會提出兩個觀點給大家參考就是立法的形成自由跟政策的可變性"},{"start":5538.103,"end":5563.856,"text":"立法院本來就是代表民意的最高機關 立法機關自然有其立法形成的自由 乃有各項法案的提出包括剛才講過的警察人事條例修正案 軍人待遇條例 甚至停砍1.58等都是年金改革的制度 即在高度的政策"},{"start":5564.818,"end":5591.35,"text":"性的事項及屬於高度政策性的事項尤其退休金制度的設計調整與否是否繼續改革屬於立法機關高度輕身自由的範圍立法者可以砍也可以不砍甚至停砍反此本身並不等於違憲因為憲法並沒有要求一定要改革到某種程度所以如果我們賴清德總統仍然一意孤行"},{"start":5596.883,"end":5606.649,"text":"當獨裁成為事實我想彈劾就成為義務當然我們老師彭景鵬老師教授講的彈劾可能不會過只是一個宣示性的意義"},{"start":5607.611,"end":5631.525,"text":"耐勁的總統甚至認為說我在台南市就曾經被彈劾過我是一個彈劾的慣犯對我來講可能是一個勳章但是很抱歉這枚勳章可能是一枚恥辱的勳章再說一遍這枚勳章可能是恥辱的勳章一刻很久遠將永遠有流傳 謝謝好 謝謝周局長"},{"start":5634.022,"end":5643.398,"text":"我們現在學者專家都已經發言完畢休息十分鐘休息之後進行審查小組委員的詢問現在休息"},{"start":5663.55,"end":5665.072,"text":"我按掉"},{"start":6252.386,"end":6275.762,"text":"我們現在繼續開會,進行審查小組委員的詢問首先請陳委員召之發言主席、專家學者們、各位同事、各位媒體朋友以及關心台灣民主憲政的每一位夥伴台灣今天正在經歷一場由現任總統所主導的憲政危機"},{"start":6277.594,"end":6289.606,"text":"憲法是國家跟人民之間的權責約束也可以說就是國家跟人民的契約每一個國人都要遵守"},{"start":6291.437,"end":6313.614,"text":"身為國家元首更是負有最高強度盡忠職守的憲法義務但是當總統所屬的政黨成為國會的少數的時候很遺憾的總統沒有選擇溝通卻是選擇對抗首創國家憲政史上的一個惡例"},{"start":6315.547,"end":6335.008,"text":"事實上立法院自第十一屆開議以來行政院除了違法 違三讀通過的條例 編列預算還發生行政院 行政院長不附屬已經復議 復議失敗的法案而總統卻竟表贊同"},{"start":6336.175,"end":6364.497,"text":"在民主法治社會所有的公民都非常清楚每一部法案的成立不是個人的好惡而是取決於法案內容是否符合法治國的原則跟憲法的規範對於是否合憲由於憲法法庭應該由憲法法庭做最終的判斷不是由總統盡致宣告為先或默許行政院長以不附屬的方式"},{"start":6367.501,"end":6383.794,"text":"踐踏民意代表所提出的一個法律也就是只有憲法法庭才能夠做最終的判斷才能夠對法律做出到底是合憲或違憲的一個判斷總統跟行政院長完全沒有這個權利"},{"start":6385.731,"end":6402.817,"text":"但是總統跟行政院長的作為充分顯示現任的總統不只是企圖削弱國會的立法權更是踐踏憲法所保障的司法獨立掠奪原本只屬於大法官的憲政裁判權"},{"start":6404.515,"end":6425.041,"text":"針對以下事由賴清德總統對立法院三讀通過經行政院附議失敗的財政收支劃分法透過行政院長以不附屬的方式來配合有違憲失職台灣民眾黨上個月提出了彈劾案獲得跨黨派59位立委的連署面對這樣專政的政府"},{"start":6427.389,"end":6452.174,"text":"作为最高的民意机关我们有义务守护台湾人的权利我们更有义务要唤醒总统不要成为破坏宪政的凶手去年11月14日立法院依法三读通过修正财政收支划分法行政院提出复议之后立法院已经再次表决维持原决议"},{"start":6453.769,"end":6477.731,"text":"並依程序私請總統公佈那麼依照憲法第72條總統必須在10日內公佈這是憲法賦予總統的義務不是建議 更不是參考總統沒有權利拒絕履行程序性的義務然而 遺憾的賴總統沒有依循憲法形式反而在法律三讀通過之後"},{"start":6479.366,"end":6503.559,"text":"召集了執政黨立委在黨中央開辯當會密謀討論要以不附屬或是附屬後不執行的方式來決定法律要不要執行這是赤裸裸的踐踏民主法治而台灣的民主憲政一再被挑戰台灣民眾黨立院黨團要向賴政府表達最嚴正的抗議此外"},{"start":6505.117,"end":6523.405,"text":"附屬制度在憲政制度的設計上它本來是行政院長用來制衡總統權力的工具是行政院對立法院負責的一個機制絕對不是行政院用來否決國會三讀法律的手段憲法非常清楚的規定"},{"start":6524.645,"end":6547.782,"text":"行政院如果認為國會通過的法律至愛難行可以提出復議但復議失敗之後呢就必須接受立法院的決議否則復議制度還有什麼意義呢行政院乾脆不要復議了直接用不附屬的方式讓法律消失好了如果今天才劃法可以被選擇性的不公佈那麼明天是不是牢記法"},{"start":6549.349,"end":6568.811,"text":"公投法甚至任何法律都可能因為總統不喜歡就被擱置了呢如此立法院三讀的意義是什麼人民選出的立委還有實質的權利嗎如果接受這樣的做法代表台灣不再是法治國家而是因人設置的人治國家"},{"start":6570.495,"end":6585.885,"text":"行政院和總統向社會大眾一再透過話語權宣稱有些法律違憲有損國家安全破壞財政紀律本席要再強調一次是否違背憲法從來不是行政權說了算"},{"start":6586.966,"end":6608.846,"text":"如果行政院可以自行判定 那麼憲法法庭存在的意義是什麼大法官存在的意義是什麼權力分立的核心原則就是禁止擴權任何機關都不能夠以削弱其他機關為代價來擴張自己的權力但是現在立法院被架空了司法權被取代了"},{"start":6609.867,"end":6636.505,"text":"所有的執行判決否決都集中在一黨一人身上這不是民主這是走向獨裁有人說憲法法庭是因為暫時無法審理所以行政部門可以自行判斷但真正的事實是造成憲法法庭空轉的就是總統自己提名大法官是總統的憲法職責那麼立法院行使同意權是一個制衡"},{"start":6637.386,"end":6662.812,"text":"立法院不同意總統就必須重新提名啊不能用法庭不能運作為藉口來否決國會通過的法律這就像是他把鑰匙先丟掉了然後說我門打不開我必須破門而入這真的是執政黨毫無忌憚的一個以蠻橫凌駕憲政一百多年前袁世凱就是用穩定國家"},{"start":6663.872,"end":6674.499,"text":"避免内乱的民意逐步削弱议会消灭反对的声音但是后来人民发现了他夺走的不是个人的权利而是所有人的未来"},{"start":6675.799,"end":6700.425,"text":"民主或許不會一夕被奪走但是一旦被侵蝕了步步都可能造成無法逆轉的後果這是歷史給我們的警訊我們今天在台灣看到的其實正是類似的危機總統領導的行政團隊企圖架空立法院僭越司法權已經嚴重破壞憲法制度的底線過去多年來我陪著民進黨"},{"start":6701.725,"end":6713.424,"text":"從民進黨還沒有出生到成熟長大從街頭運動到帶領主要的民間社團民進黨的前輩啟發我對民主的認知就是政黨政治"},{"start":6714.485,"end":6738.153,"text":"有監督有制衡它的基礎就是憲政法治今日賴總統縱容執政黨利用龐大的行政資源製造社會對立消耗國力曾幾何時台灣人民在公開場合談論政治會懷著被批判的恐懼不敢在社群團體暢談自己的理想跟政治信念請問民進黨你還有資格紀念鄭南榮嗎"},{"start":6745.505,"end":6754.192,"text":"總統沒有責任嗎這是號稱民主進步的政黨主席的領導風格嗎已經執政十年的民主進步黨不用檢討嗎"},{"start":6755.953,"end":6776.266,"text":"很遺憾的即使已經升為國家的總統賴總統依然擺脫不了民進黨黨主席的思維以黨領政的風格本席要再次重申台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨對第十六屆總統賴清德所提出的彈劾案是憲法賦予立法機關的最後一道防線"},{"start":6777.467,"end":6794.401,"text":"這是對賴總統的憲政警示也是多數人民最嚴正的忠告總統再大也大不過憲法權力再強也強不過人民總統再大也大不過憲法權力再強也強不過人民如果我們選擇沉默"},{"start":6795.982,"end":6813.821,"text":"接受總統選擇性的遵守憲法那麼明天後天每一條法律都可以面臨相同的對待我們做這個決定不是為了政黨利益而是為了國家與人民我們要告訴掌權者人民才是國家的主人台灣的民主得來不易啊"},{"start":6814.361,"end":6839.922,"text":"不能讓他在看似合法 實則 專斷的操作上慢慢消失台灣需要的是尊重憲法 尊重國會 尊重人民的政府而不是走向集權之路的政府請記得憲法第二條國家的主權屬於國民全體不是任何政黨 也不是總統個人台灣的所有權狀不在執政黨手上 也不在總統個人的手上謝謝"},{"start":6842.708,"end":6843.97,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員接下來我們請省發會委員發言"},{"start":6851.238,"end":6873.302,"text":"好 主席今天所與會的各位學者專家在場各位媒體記者先生女士朋友我想今天我們希望說這樣子的一個公聽會大家也邀請了學者也邀請了專家我們是希望說是針對這個我們的這個今天這個所謂彈劾案的這個憲法的相關的法理來進行討論不過剛才我整場聽下來比較像是一個政論節目那這個部分我比較感到遺憾"},{"start":6881.044,"end":6900.116,"text":"我想在我開始討論這個憲政問題之前,我首先跟大家一起齊文共賞。大家來看看這個畫面上,秀出的是這次我們立法院議案關係文書,由本院委員傅坤祺、羅志強、林佩祥、黃國昌等60人所提出來的這個說話。今天我們為什麼開這個公聽會,就是因為這篇齊文。"},{"start":6901.937,"end":6930.898,"text":"那我們來看這篇檄文他這裡面說簡單講他要彈劾賴清德總統他爐裂了大概這麼多大一篇爐裂大概就是六個理由第一個理由指揮授意行政院長左榮泰濫編預算這個部分第一個指揮授意這個部分你們提出指控的你們要有負舉證責任這個哪裡他在用什麼方式指揮授意第二"},{"start":6932.06,"end":6954.361,"text":"編列預算是行政院專屬的權利依照憲法第59條由行政院編列預算不管他怎麼編編列預算就是行政院的權利至於他預算編得好或不好你同意或不同意那是立法院的權利立法院的審查依照憲法第63條立法院就審查你覺得他爛編你就刪除你覺得他爛編你就全部凍結"},{"start":6956.411,"end":6984.277,"text":"那你今天因為這個你今天把這個男孩當作一個彈劾那你要彈劾你再怎麼樣你也說預算是行政院長編的你也來對付行政院長啊結果你說用這個理由你來彈劾總統這個是這篇文章的第一期第二期這個說第二個理由他說因為造謠抹黑從來彈劾的理由都是看總統做什麼事而不是看那個人說什麼話"},{"start":6986.291,"end":7010.798,"text":"照謠抹黑一樣啊 你要舉證啊他照了什麼謠 抹了什麼黑沒有 就這四個字然後再來用言論 意思說總統講什麼話所以我們要來彈劾他 這個是第二期第三期 利用司法迫害議題這個我們檢察官依照職權追訴犯罪法院他依照職權發現真實進行什麼依法審判"},{"start":7012.348,"end":7028.594,"text":"這個你說用司法迫害異己 舉證啊 哪會講啊第四個 發動大惡霸 摧毀臺灣民主什麼時候人民行使依法 行使選舉罷免 創制 復決結果要來彈劾總統 這個邏輯我完全不懂"},{"start":7033.837,"end":7060.849,"text":"人民行使依法行使啊它是違法行使的罷免嗎不是依法行使選舉罷免創制覆決你以此為理由來罷免總統第五 放任台積電赴美投資各位 台積電赴美投資所以要彈劾賴清德這個是不是這篇文章的第五期那為什麼鴻海去投資中國那也要來罷免賴清德好了"},{"start":7062.669,"end":7074.971,"text":"這個一個民間公司的投資行為你拿來當作罷免總統的理由這些都不值一審啦我剛講這些都不值一審真正關鍵的是我們今天希望討論的第六個理由"},{"start":7075.899,"end":7104.443,"text":"你們認為說行政院長以不附屬為由來針對這個才化法行政院長不附屬這才是今天大概是最重要的關鍵剛剛大家談的有50%集中在這個議題上面所以我要來談一談這個所謂的不附屬這個問題退一萬步講啦就算這個是理由那也是行政院長不附屬啊行政院長不附屬按照憲法總統就不能公佈啊"},{"start":7105.877,"end":7121.88,"text":"所以總統不但沒有違憲而且他是完全是合憲的那至於行政院長不附屬你說行政院長不附屬違不違憲我們現在才討論但就算他違憲你們也用憲法的手段來處理行政院長怎麼會來彈劾總統呢這個又是這篇文章的第六集那我們來談這個所謂的附屬權剛剛也有學者提到"},{"start":7133.206,"end":7157.645,"text":"当初中华民国宪法有关于这个我先看这边很多政治学的教授还有我自己的老师都在这里当初所谓政治学大学第一课打开David Easton的政治学第一课第一个图是input output第二个图这是什么这是权力分立三个权力check and balance行政 立法 司法三个权力它各有各的"},{"start":7158.425,"end":7183.403,"text":"我們看這每一個權力之間都有兩個箭頭一個是我制衡你的權力一個是你制衡我的權力三權分立美國的也是這樣日本的也是這樣中華民國比較特別五權但是我們在談中華民國的憲法設計它還是基本上在三權之間它還是彼此有互相制衡的權力這個是憲法制度這最基本的權力分立制度的原理那我國因為"},{"start":7184.69,"end":7203.74,"text":"原本最初當初的中華民國憲法本文由張君邁他所起草的中華民國憲法本文他其實整個是傾向內閣制的也就是剛剛大家所講的原本我們憲法所規定的行政院長附屬權原本是用來制衡總統的沒有錯當初設計憲法本文的時候"},{"start":7205.743,"end":7219.237,"text":"他是來制衡總統的他代表著內閣制很重要的一個精神這是當初我們中華民國憲法本文設計的時候但是蔣介石當總統他不甘願啊所以他用動員刊亂時期臨時條款把他整個變成總統制我們中華民國憲政體制上除了蔣經國當行政院長以外沒有內閣制過"},{"start":7232.002,"end":7251.771,"text":"當初原本附屬權是屬於是因為當初的行政院長必須經過立法院同意所以他具有強大的內閣制精神這是憲法本文但是我們在修憲的時候把這個行政院長"},{"start":7253.274,"end":7279.937,"text":"必須經立法院同意我們把它拿掉了拿掉了我們在這個哪一年修憲修憲的時候把這個行政院長任命行政院長必須經過立法院同意拿掉了使得我們憲法中修條文之後的內閣制精神整個降低了行政院長基本上變成總統任命所以因為他的權力來源來自總統所以行政院長沒有什麼制衡總統這回事的"},{"start":7280.999,"end":7305.336,"text":"所以如果附屬權理論上是制衡總統的話那時候附屬權就應該全部拿掉了但是我們留著我們不是全部保留我們再修憲一次當年為了這個你說第一個拒絕附屬的行政院長是左翁派嗎不是第一個拒絕附屬的行政院長是郝柏春他當年針對蔣仲林的人事案他拒絕附屬"},{"start":7307.392,"end":7325.813,"text":"所以因為好柏村的拒絕附屬因此我們又進行修憲不是我們是那時候國民黨主導的修憲又把這個針對人事案的附屬權拿掉部分針對人事案的附屬權把它拿掉就是因為好柏村拒絕附屬"},{"start":7327.813,"end":7351.344,"text":"拿掉但是他沒有把整個附屬權拿掉他其他的附屬法律案的附屬權他依然保留在憲法裡面這個是什麼這個是憲法有意的沉默他拿掉了人事同意人事的附屬權獨留法律案的附屬權表示這個附屬權是存在而且有價值有意義的在在徵修條文修憲之後的體制依然是重要的權利"},{"start":7353.055,"end":7374.846,"text":"所以我們今天爭論的意思就是說附屬權到底是一個義務中華民國法律通過之後你就一定要附屬就一定要公佈這是一種看法這就是你們今天國民黨跟民眾黨的看法另外一個看法認為附屬權不是它是一個權利它是一個行政院長的權限所以它會規定在憲法裡面那"},{"start":7379.385,"end":7401.391,"text":"這個東西有爭議理論上那到底他可不可以不附屬理論上這樣子的憲政爭議應該由誰來做最後的判定他到底可不可以其實是憲法法院照體制走就是憲法法院剛大家都講說憲法法院才有終極判決的理由剛才大家這麼多人在那邊講說賴清德違憲賴清德明顯違憲"},{"start":7404.548,"end":7430.686,"text":"那你們也沒有權利講賴清德違憲只有憲法法院可以說賴清德違憲但是我們中華民國這部體制經過七次修憲拼裝之後本來雖然不好騎但是也是一台滿好騎還是可以走的腳踏車結果有兩個惡棍一個叫國民黨一個叫民眾黨拿一根鐵棍從車輪插進去這腳踏車翻車了這根鐵棍是什麼就是憲法訴訟法癱瘓憲法法庭因為國民黨"},{"start":7434.198,"end":7458.873,"text":"民眾黨癱瘓的憲法法庭使得現在所有的這些憲政爭議你通通變成沒有得到最終終局解決的可能性剛才所有學者我看張其祿教授是我很好的朋友他講得很有道理他說現在的這個總統制這個是憲法制度是有問題的這樣子的設計他大概整篇都講我們憲法制度有很大的問題"},{"start":7460.699,"end":7484.679,"text":"憲法制度有很大的問題所以要罷免總統所以要彈劾總統這個是什麼邏輯因為我們的憲法制度設計有問題所以我們要來彈劾賴清德我在這裡講這麼多但是最重要是我們要回歸到最後憲政體制的設計在場都是學者大家也都是在教人子弟的"},{"start":7485.817,"end":7509.531,"text":"都是在教人子弟的有關於憲法這樣子相關的權限我剛剛所講的通通都是就是權力制衡check and balance裡面附屬權到底是不是一個行政權對立法權的一個制衡的權利也許憲政上有爭議但是終局應該是被你們癱瘓的憲法法庭好 謝謝沈委員下一位我們請王玉敏委員發言"},{"start":7511.471,"end":7538.511,"text":"主席各位委員各位媒體朋友各位專家學者大家好我想今天我們是在寫歷史為什麼這麼說在立法院我們是第一次針對彈劾總統這樣的一個案子來召開公聽會我相信都沒有人參加過大家都是第一次那為什麼會有這樣子歷史上的第一次"},{"start":7539.392,"end":7542.258,"text":"立法院必須提出彈劾總統這樣的一個彈劾案"},{"start":7544.642,"end":7569.454,"text":"因為賴清德總統是無前例的不公布由立法院通過的法律案這個是中華民國我們民選總統以來從來沒有一個總統做到這件事情而賴清德公然違反了憲法的義務跟責任"},{"start":7570.134,"end":7587.523,"text":"他竟然可以用不公布立法院三讀通過的法律這就是明顯的違憲所以這樣的一個史無前例讓我們必須召開公聽會今天有這樣的一個彈劾案"},{"start":7588.433,"end":7617.753,"text":"那這樣的一個史無前例我覺得賴清德總統沒有擔當敢做而不敢當剛剛有包括學者或者是委員說為什麼對象不是針對卓榮泰要針對賴清德我讓大家來複習一下為什麼今天彈劾的對象是賴清德總統在立法院通過的才化法這個我讓大家"},{"start":7619.194,"end":7634.823,"text":"還原一下那個順序在立法院通過的財政收支劃分法這個行政院他有提出復議他是在114年12月5號立法院投票表決"},{"start":7636.124,"end":7654.296,"text":"就是維持原案所以他的復議案並沒有通過按照憲法徵修條文第三條明定復議時如今全體立法委員二分之一以上決議維持原案行政院院長應即接受該決議"},{"start":7656.357,"end":7671.984,"text":"而總統更需要依中華民國憲法第72條規定立法院法律案通過後移送總統及行政院總統英語收到後10日內公佈"},{"start":7674.069,"end":7690.402,"text":"這些憲法明文規定的文字如果按照憲法來12月5號立法院已經否決了行政院的復議案總統按照規定應該要在114年12月15號公佈實施結果"},{"start":7696.479,"end":7718.078,"text":"媒體都有報導12月12號總統主動找了民進黨的立委進行了一場便當會他選擇在應該12月15號公佈之前匆匆忙忙就召開了一場便當會然後這一場便當會"},{"start":7719.759,"end":7733.064,"text":"召開完之後他就對外宣布就是採取不附屬或附屬之後不執行這不是公然下指導棋什麼才是"},{"start":7734.827,"end":7749.397,"text":"我們看到了總統公然的去找了民進黨的立委來召開這場會議定調了不附屬結果從昨天的專家學者或是民進黨的委員都說你們應該要找卓榮泰"},{"start":7751.041,"end":7776.099,"text":"冤有頭債有主啊敢做不敢當賴清德總統公然找了民進黨的委員召開了這場會議而且強硬劃壓如果大家有印象的話當時柯建民總召我們佩服他他還是在專業方面是比較深厚的比較有法學素養的他認為萬萬不可但是"},{"start":7777.25,"end":7789.408,"text":"很難獨排眾議所以這個卓榮泰就照單全收請問今天我們提出這樣的彈劾案對象是總統真的沒有道理嗎"},{"start":7791.448,"end":7809.246,"text":"真的沒有道理嗎所以我希望民進黨的委員不用再繼續護航賴總統既然敢做就敢當完完全全都是他下令的嘛所以今天民進黨有很多的委員說哎呀你們就是提倒閣啊倒閣有用嗎"},{"start":7810.527,"end":7839.39,"text":"今天走了一個卓榮泰不會來一個鄭麗君嗎或來一個潘孟安嗎那他們要不要聽命賴清德總統的命令當然要啊在我們現在的憲政架構底下我們的行政院院長充其量就是總統的執行長而已我們不是真正的內閣制我們現在的卓榮泰院長他並沒有來自民意的基礎跟權力"},{"start":7840.919,"end":7858.633,"text":"那請問一個行政院院長可以針對立法院最高的民意機構我們所通過的法令他可以不附屬嗎他可以不附屬來架空立法院嗎請問他的權力基礎來自於哪裡不是內閣制的首長哪來那麼大的一個權力"},{"start":7864.972,"end":7892.121,"text":"所以你不覺得這件事情非常的荒謬嗎如果一個行政院院長可以任意的用不附屬來架控立法院通過的法令那請問陳水扁時期也是嘲笑也大他當時所任命的行政院院長我相信他對於立法院所做的決議他可能也不見得百分之百的認同或者是接受但是他們都守住了"},{"start":7893.449,"end":7912.49,"text":"憲法跟法律的底線我們是五權分立的國家一個行政院院長目前我們的憲法賦予他的就是你不同意的時候你就提起復議但是復議失敗之後憲法明文規定你就是必須要遵守"},{"start":7913.935,"end":7938.251,"text":"這個才是我們民主法治應該要維持的一個最好的一個框架跟架構吧所以真的是制度完全出了問題嗎我今天在公聽會我要說恐怕是人出了問題如果過去陳水扁總統在嘲笑野大的時候我們也沒有看到他發動大罷免針對在野黨所有的區域委員一律罷免"},{"start":7939.312,"end":7963.981,"text":"我們也沒有看到陳水扁總統他對於立法院通過的法令竟然可以進行不公佈那這是人的問題還是是制度的問題我必須說賴清德總統他在法治的觀念上面出了非常大的一個問題過去他擔任市長的時候就可以因為不認同這個議會的議長"},{"start":7966.542,"end":7982.1,"text":"他就不履行一個市長到議會去接受備詢接受議會監督這樣的一個做法而遭到了監察院的彈劾那他今天作為國家的元首故態覆名又來了一遍"},{"start":7983.101,"end":8004.172,"text":"他今天竟然可以違反憲法針對立法院通過的法律案他要求卓榮泰不附屬然後還裝模作樣變成說不是我不公佈是因為他不附屬所以我才不能公佈這個也未免太惺惺作態了要敢做敢當"},{"start":8006.345,"end":8027.417,"text":"最後我要提出來的是我們不允許中華民國邁向民主獨裁我們不允許我們好不容易創建的民主法治的體制竟然可以在賴清德擔任總統的時候他可以用個人的意志就要來做這個扭曲跟破壞"},{"start":8029.042,"end":8046.253,"text":"美國的開國元勳、美國憲法之父James Madison他在聯邦黨的人文集第47篇他有特別指出當立法權、行政權和司法權集中於一人之手我們都可以恰當地稱為這是保證"},{"start":8048.835,"end":8074.913,"text":"而目前我們看到的賴清德總統他試圖要架空立法院的立法權他用司法去迫害政敵他現在在這個大法官的部分不提名不履行他的總統的職責而且用五個大法官就要來做釋憲這個都是在在的違反了民主"},{"start":8075.934,"end":8090.137,"text":"迫害了我們的法治最後我要講的是在憲政之上沒有人可以領價在民主之前也沒有旁觀者所以今天我們都在寫歷史"},{"start":8091.418,"end":8117.643,"text":"對一個違法濫權的總統我們一定要留下記錄而很多人都說這一個彈劾案根本不會通過重點是在這個過程我們要讓全國的民眾了解而我也套用柯總召的一句話他常常說起義來歸我想民進黨裡面的委員如果想要繼續守護我們的憲法"},{"start":8118.283,"end":8134.219,"text":"最終我們在投票的時候我們也希望呼應有志之士希望守護中華民國憲政與法治的民進黨委員可以起義來歸以上 謝謝好 謝謝王委員接下來請吳斯亞委員發言"},{"start":8136.05,"end":8147.971,"text":"謝謝大會主席謝謝今天參與的立委同仁以及學者專家們我就扣合著王育民委員剛剛所說的立法院正在寫歷史這是台灣史上第一次的彈劾總統案"},{"start":8149.249,"end":8174.244,"text":"那麼我們就要負責任的寫下好的歷史對的歷史而不是無法對後代交代無法對歷史交代並不是賴清德總統違憲亂政而是我們有了史上前所未有惡上加惡的立法院我同意王玉民委員說的現在的憲政僵局問題在人沒有錯"},{"start":8175.151,"end":8196.443,"text":"因为我们有了一再的违反宪法宪政机关平等相违原则一再的认为国会优位立院最大的在野党的立委们这些人才是真正出了问题的核心那下一页我其实不想提但我必须提早在这一届国会还未组成"},{"start":8197.003,"end":8222.87,"text":"正在即將組成的2024年2月1號前習近平已經下達指示拿下台灣戰場就在立法院我們來看看習近平國台辦頒布的佔領台灣立法院制高點的統戰戰略要點裡頭的幾項目標工作是不是就是台灣現在國會的社會進行式包括來癱瘓台灣的國防自主"},{"start":8223.57,"end":8248.67,"text":"包括用國會濫權來提出國會的調查權要求總統的質詢權要求總統到立院備詢不也正是現在彈劾案的現在進行式嗎包括習近平所指示的讓九二共識成為國會統戰互動的最高原則那我們來看看這不就是現在鄭麗文的所作所為嗎"},{"start":8250.131,"end":8275.828,"text":"所以說呢不是台灣社會在關心總統彈劾恐怕對岸也有相當高度的關切為什麼呢下一頁當我們看到蔡正元 邱毅 郭正亮發起的彈劾賴清德總統的連署網站然後快速的被踢爆這個網站造假甚至一度暴增到高達14億人14億人來同意"},{"start":8279.43,"end":8305.517,"text":"弹劾赖清德总统那这样一个假网站就搭配着认知作战他的协力者就有这些发起联署的人有台湾的红媒有中国的官媒一套剧本一条龙的操作连弹劾总统都大搞认知作战煽动人民仇恨政府我们再看下一页"},{"start":8306.637,"end":8319.013,"text":"國台辦果不其然很快速的紅藍白口徑一致都要求彈劾賴清德如果在野黨的委員要撇清反對這些"},{"start":8321.317,"end":8336.153,"text":"作為那為什麼自己自甘成為工具人為什麼自己讓自己跟中國的操作畫上了等號呢下一頁我們來看真實的民意喔民進黨的民調67%支持國會先審預算先顧民生"},{"start":8340.718,"end":8359.606,"text":"而不支持大搞彈劾你不相信民進黨的民調沒有關係我們看看一平新聞的民調也高達74%反對彈劾賴清德總統更也可以參考鄭傳媒委託山水民調公司的高達45%是不贊成彈劾總統的所以說下一頁"},{"start":8360.886,"end":8384.735,"text":"藍白所提的彈劾總統的三大謬誤就是欲加之罪何患無辭從把賴總統冠上獨裁總統或是毀憲亂政的罪名都是莫須有強加人於罪所以這是欲加之罪何患無辭的彈劾這也是畫錯重點搞錯方向的彈劾如果要追究總統的政治責任"},{"start":8386.175,"end":8403.605,"text":"請去勇敢的倒閣吧難道在野黨害怕民意的最終仲裁嗎而如果要藉由彈劾來要求邀請賴清德總統列席立法院那麼何必捨盡求遠就去走符合憲法規範的國情報告不就得了嗎第三這也是虛張聲勢自我催眠的假彈劾"},{"start":8411.869,"end":8435.171,"text":"因为蓝白没有三分之二的利润席次而宪法法庭也被你们瘫痪被你们摧毁你们都知道这是一个弹劾不成的弹劾案下一页我们来看看刚审发会委员针对这个天下奇闻大家一起共赏就是蓝白所提的发动弹劾总统案的案由"},{"start":8437.191,"end":8461.163,"text":"你们一再讲几个关键字就是赖清德是独裁总统你们一再说赖清德是违宪乱政的总统在场也有我台大政研所的老师彭女彭老师无爱无师无更爱真理刚刚彭老师所说的赖清德是违宪的总统赖清德是违宪惯犯的总统不好意思无爱无师无更爱真理"},{"start":8462.143,"end":8486.535,"text":"賴清德總統是一個維護憲法的總統而藍白主導的立法院才是違憲上癮的立法院看看如果台灣有獨裁總統我們能夠讓在野黨的委員依循憲法的機制在立法院搞彈劾在立法院舉辦公聽會一再地羞辱總統做出這些"},{"start":8487.495,"end":8506.021,"text":"毫無事實依據的這些政治攻擊如果台灣是獨裁的國家何以能夠在立院發動彈劾呢所以就足以證明我們今天在這裡的進行的公聽會台灣並不是獨裁國家更沒有獨裁總統下一頁而"},{"start":8506.801,"end":8518.238,"text":"沒有獨裁總統 只有獨裁國會這些近乎二讀 不經討論協商過水 黑箱表決的議案才是獨裁國會的本質 下一頁而"},{"start":8519.19,"end":8546.899,"text":"前所未見藍白真的寫下了台灣的歷史兩年有八個議案被申請釋憲中其中兩案已經被宣判違憲誰違憲亂證正是藍白主導的立法院兩年八個法案涉及違憲憲法法庭正在審議當中而兩案已經被宣判違憲下一頁"},{"start":8547.719,"end":8569.654,"text":"我们更要说除了今天的弹劾总统案在野党以近乎二读以立院决议的方式谴责大法官宣判宪判无效的这一个提案违反了宪法78条违反了宪法诉讼法38条更违反释字185号的解释谁在违宪乱政"},{"start":8570.595,"end":8596.892,"text":"就是这种提案下一页谁在违宪乱政在野党甚至要用公投法来凌驾宪法要用公投来推翻宪判我们在场这么多学者专家法律不能凌驾宪法这是所有学法律学政治的基本ABC所以谁在违宪乱政呢是立法院自证其罪下一页"},{"start":8598.174,"end":8610.065,"text":"而在提案要求彈劾總統的理由裡頭剛剛一直講到大罷免國民黨你們要確定大罷免是人民發動的"},{"start":8611.604,"end":8630.29,"text":"真正發動大惡霸的是貴黨國民黨而坐在這裡的吳思瑤就是現在全台灣真的是被寫下歷史偽造連署高達2674份全台灣從以前到現在偽造連署死亡連署高達94%這一個驚人的"},{"start":8635.331,"end":8648.402,"text":"歷史記錄我真的很遺憾是記錄在吳思瑤身上因為國民黨要搞大惡霸是你們用違法的方式你們要大惡霸沒搞成而已啊"},{"start":8650.219,"end":8679.779,"text":"人民依據憲法提起罷免的權利就如同今天在野黨的委員依據憲法提起彈劾總統一樣都是依據憲法那為什麼立法院可以人民不能夠行使他的罷免的基本公民權呢不要兩套標準而事實上國民黨才是發動大惡霸的元首只是你們沒有成功而已我就是當事人我也是受害者"},{"start":8680.579,"end":8696.166,"text":"至于法案不附属到底有没有构成弹劾总统的正当理由呢不管我们在场的陈一凯律师陈一凯教授有非常多的发表的意见我们也来看看陈一前教授所说的"},{"start":8697.006,"end":8720.033,"text":"行政院長行使憲法賦予的正當防衛權利怎麼會構成彈劾總統的理由呢羅承宗教授所說林佳和教授所說下一頁甚至許志雄大法官所說的行政院長的不附屬是阻止違憲法案的公佈實行那你要追究行政院長的政治責任再說一次 那你就去倒閣吧"},{"start":8721.089,"end":8734.567,"text":"那陳怡凱教授謝謝兩天給我們非常精彩多多的論述我就不再贅述了所以呢法案不附屬並不構成彈劾總統的合理合憲的理由最後"},{"start":8735.768,"end":8759.103,"text":"要藉由大搞彈劾來羞辱總統在立法院搭建出一個可以羞辱總統政治表演的舞台倒數會期末的十一天為什麼不審預算不審軍購至民生於何處至國安於何處呢好 最後時間我30秒收數這一本是周萬來秘書長寫的書"},{"start":8761.124,"end":8780.941,"text":"非常清楚針對總統的國情報告只要合憲合規總統願意來他多次表達而周萬來秘書長過去的著作就清楚的說明了國會進行國情報告是得邀請而不是應邀請"},{"start":8782.142,"end":8798.582,"text":"而急問急答並不是憲法賦予立法院的權利因為對立法院負責的是行政院長不是總統下一頁好謝謝好最後一個我收束一下如果說要邀請賴總統來國請報告請合憲合規"},{"start":8802.206,"end":8826.457,"text":"因為過去針對違憲的急問急答的方式馬英九總統 王金平院長都說過萬萬不可不要讓台灣的憲政秩序而整個被大開民主的倒車我以這個頁面來收束過去馬英九怎麼說 王金平怎麼說現在的藍白委員"},{"start":8827.297,"end":8840.326,"text":"请不要一再的写下错误的历史写下负面的历史中华民国的国会不能够让恶例成为惯例好 谢谢谢谢吴委员下一位请王洪委员发言"},{"start":8849.397,"end":8861.558,"text":"好 謝謝主席以及來參加的學者專家以及現場的各位委員還有網路前面的朋友 大家好我想今天是非常重要的一個歷史時刻"},{"start":8863.031,"end":8890.459,"text":"我們今天面臨了中華民國第一次史上由立法院所提出來的總統彈劾案其實我們心情是非常沉重的就如同剛才很多的先進所講的按照我們現在的這個憲政體制要讓總統彈劾成功事實上它的難度確實非常高不要說現在立法院沒有三分之二的在野席次"},{"start":8890.959,"end":8918.928,"text":"而且还要经过宪法法庭而最近宪法法庭的表现我们几乎可以确定那么其实就已经如同赖总统的靳远靳卫军一样的但是我们必须去写下历史因为当独裁成为事实弹劾就是我们的责任当独裁成为事实弹劾就是我们的责任"},{"start":8919.844,"end":8930.371,"text":"我想以下我要講一下我們現在為何要彈劾賴清德總統因為他確實一步一步的走向彈劾之路"},{"start":8931.607,"end":8950.221,"text":"首先在去年發起的大罷免剛才民進黨的委員都說這是人民發起的啊可是這是由民進黨黨團總召柯建民總召他對外公開的說在整個大罷免過程裡面賴總統每個禮拜都聽取報告"},{"start":8954.944,"end":8976.309,"text":"他完全掌控请问一下这是一个完全由人民由下而上所发起的大罢免吗不要自欺欺人人民不是笨蛋所以在去年32比0其实社会已经告诉你这样子一个由"},{"start":8978.673,"end":8994.688,"text":"總統所發起的這樣的一個大罷免浪費社會資源造成社會對立大家已經告訴你最新的民意可是請問一下賴總統他有因此而節制嗎"},{"start":8996.198,"end":9018.49,"text":"所以我必须要说刚才吴思瑶委员也说现在最主要的问题是人出了问题这个人是在立法院的人出了问题他当然指的是在野党的立委可是人民不是告诉你了吗32比0大罢免大失败到底是谁出问题呢"},{"start":9019.52,"end":9042.103,"text":"为什么我们赖总统即便经过这样的一个教训和洗礼人民这样的意志这么清楚地告诉你你仍然不懂节制呢另外行政权独裁拒绝依法行政我们特别一直在讲在过去"},{"start":9043.283,"end":9069.329,"text":"再怎麼獨裁總統再怎麼專權但是不可能容許在立法院已經完備程序通過的法律我們竟然在行政部門拒絕執行在去年我們通過了對於第一線前線軍人的加薪案"},{"start":9070.39,"end":9091.981,"text":"我們也通過了退休景銷的所得替代率提高但是在今年度的總預算裡面行政院拒絕編列這是一個經過行政院長附屬以及總統公佈實施的法律但是竟然可以不執行剛才吳思耀"},{"start":9093.55,"end":9118.8,"text":"委員也刻意的再把這一次的彈劾案去故意去牽扯好像這事又是中共的在地協力者這樣的話術這樣的帶風向這樣的抹紅抹黑不就是去年大罷免的重現嗎可是已經告訴你人民不吃這一套"},{"start":9119.932,"end":9146.952,"text":"另外我們所通過的法律案包含對於現在第一線我們的國軍官兵弟兄的加薪案請問一下我們提振我們軍人的士氣我們是中共的在地協力者嗎我們照顧我們的退休警消人員我們又變成了中共的在地協力者嗎這到底是什麼邏輯"},{"start":9148.82,"end":9174.832,"text":"欲加之罪何患無辭我必須說今天賴總統的悲哀呀就是在於他一再的用抗中移轉自己執政的無能一再用抗中來說用這樣合理化自己的一個獨裁的行為好我剛才講行政權的獨裁我們看到"},{"start":9176.38,"end":9185.597,"text":"这两天一直说你们找错对象了是行政院长不附属所以你们应该去弹劾的是"},{"start":9187.591,"end":9210.492,"text":"這個行政院長你們應該去提出這個不信任案當然他希望用倒閣的方式來進行所謂的大罷免2.08我們今天看到日本高市早苗首相他決定要解散國會重新選舉高市自己也會下來選啊"},{"start":9212.338,"end":9236.53,"text":"所以今天賴清德總統他坐在那邊受到這個憲政的保護竟然告訴我們你們去倒閣然後大家再重新選舉我直接說賴清德總統你如果下來跟我們一起選你這個才有正當性啊你在那邊說的是把人民當作三歲的小孩嗎"},{"start":9238.317,"end":9265.91,"text":"所以我們在這邊為什麼特別提出我們不能一而再再而三的放任行政院拒絕實施立法院所通過的法律這是行政逾越了自己的權力的底線那我們當然很清楚知道這個真正的元兇當然不是卓榮泰而是賴清德總統另外司法權的獨裁"},{"start":9267.327,"end":9296.257,"text":"枉法裁判除了行政权之外赖总统已经把他的手伸向了司法我们这两天也有很多的论述我们的宪法法庭受到宪诉法的限制应该根本无权去开会好 他说我们新通过的宪诉法是违宪的必须十人以上才可以组成宪法法庭"},{"start":9297.082,"end":9313.401,"text":"但是我們就退一萬步來說也就是現在所採用的舊的限訴法憲法法庭的組成也要現有總額的三分之二起碼六名大法官"},{"start":9314.409,"end":9329.057,"text":"所以我们在去年我们违法的宪法法庭去做成了114年宪判制第一号根本是无效判决而且是荒唐的一个判决"},{"start":9331.893,"end":9350.661,"text":"憲法法庭可以完全的違法作為司法最高機關也可以違法但是這後面又是賴總統後面的撐腰不是嗎也是賴總統的授意不是嗎所以這是一個司法權獨裁"},{"start":9353.452,"end":9372.547,"text":"這樣子的一個作為其實跟最近被美國逮捕的委內瑞拉總統馬杜洛他就是因為國會他沒有辦法掌握多數所以他把他的親信放在他最高法院然後判決所有國會裡面通過的法律通過的預算全部無效"},{"start":9374.013,"end":9397.351,"text":"所以今天我們能讓台灣委內瑞拉化嗎可以讓司法權獨裁整個的一樣愉悅踐踏了立法權嗎而且最好笑的是賴總統竟然會說出一個現在叫做在野獨裁真的是全球獨步啊"},{"start":9398.447,"end":9420.035,"text":"全世界的民主憲政的專家都應該向賴總統請教請問一下 我們現在的總統除了立法院之外掌握了行政院 考試院 監察院還有最重要的是司法權請問一下 在野如何獨裁呢"},{"start":9421.064,"end":9438.818,"text":"所以今天我們一步一步走向這樣子的行政獨裁,再也獨裁。我們如果可以縱容,我們如果沉默,我們會眼睜睜看著台灣要走向變成委內瑞拉嗎?"},{"start":9440.168,"end":9465.867,"text":"我們要讓賴清德會朝向韓國的前總統尹錫悅一樣走向一個獨裁之路嗎所以今天我們在歷史上必須留下見證當獨裁成為事實彈劾就是我們的責任謝謝好 謝謝王宏林委員接下來我們請王逸川委員發言好 謝謝主席"},{"start":9469.104,"end":9473.507,"text":"還有線上的好朋友今天聽整個會議對面的學者專家講的這個內容我最欽佩的就是張祺祿教授他這樣開宗明義的說今天這是一個制度的討論一個制度的討論因為這制度上的某種的設計今天要辦這個公聽會後面還要討論用國語好不好"},{"start":9507.048,"end":9515.173,"text":"那個 我想我們就彼此尊重好不好來 繼續你那個什麼意思 主席那個什麼意思來 請繼續發言 沒關係我用什麼話講是我的管理啦你如果聽不到 聽不到去找翻譯啦莫名其妙 我講我的話你就是不懂 亂說什麼意思啊對面啦 這些學者專家今天每一個人講的話 理事長都會記錄啦"},{"start":9536.201,"end":9543.343,"text":"張祺祿教授講制度討論,這我非常贊成張祺祿教授講完後,後面幾個教授講的,我也非常認同當然也有人抄斷,抄斷說什麼大法官是什麼,他設計,我聽你的父母那又叫你設計,說一個沒辦法查證的東西,還抄斷"},{"start":9561.989,"end":9572.175,"text":"所以請不要立法委員不要亂講話那個都有國民大會的記錄等一下我們會有回應時間好不好學者專家這邊我們待會有30分鐘的回應時間現在我們就請委員繼續發言你跟我說我也沒什麼意見來 王委員請繼續發言怎麼會這樣啊請學者專家才會沒問題好 來 我們繼續發言 來"},{"start":9590.711,"end":9598.833,"text":"今天這是一個制度的討論 現在是行政院對立法院通過的法律跟自愛人行申請這個復議 說什麼復議沒過就沒了啊復議沒過 接著是說你不可以再復議 你當然也不能去申請釋憲啊你當然現在要規定 行政院一定有一個復甦的權利啊不然你就把復甦的權利給掉啊"},{"start":9620.282,"end":9631.165,"text":"不然就來修憲啊 把他骨頭劈掉啊行政院長不復甦 現場裡面就說他要復甦 須復甦須復甦就是可以復甦 也可以不要復甦啊不然他骨頭劈掉啊 連這個也要廢這廢好 這廢可以 這就是制度的討論不是個人的討論我告訴你 現在這樣你如果不開心 不開心你就把這個行政議長給他上彈"},{"start":9649.824,"end":9664.068,"text":"我不知道你們不應該把行政議長刪除因為彈劾的權利是乾淨的你們就必不可保你說我沒有把這個行政議長我沒有來把這個不信任我們不信任我們一定會過你們如果不愛你們也不愛因為不信任我們之後就全部定選你們也不愛這道理大家都說很久了後來你們就想到一招說要來彈劾總統"},{"start":9678.881,"end":9689.585,"text":"還要來彈劾總統 要彈劾總統也沒問題這是立法院的管理 連署裡面理由有在寧下彈劾總統裡面還有一個理由說因為台積電要去美國 這條可以彈劾總統這條可以彈劾總統 理由有在寧下 反正倒霉就是來投票來標判"},{"start":9702.489,"end":9721.533,"text":"要投票 要表決 也很簡單啊 公共的就開始來投票不是 你們很厲害 世界創五個月還要下降 還要辦20多張 用國家的資源在拚你們的選舉我怎麼聽得到 怎麼看得到你們20多個官司 那就是你們的好選人還要去辦的時候 就要去做幾套的"},{"start":9728.991,"end":9735.753,"text":"用國家的資源在拼你們的選舉要拖到五月還要投票要投票就這兩天半班的就來投票不需要這樣拖 簡單說你們就是要亂了你們就是要亂了你們現在幾天也都說了 國民黨的台獨也這樣說了這就不會過 你們也知道不會過可是要繞記錄 不過要繞記錄"},{"start":9757.863,"end":9766.188,"text":"不過規定很重要,為什麼?因為你後來擺設計兩天,說要叫總統來,要來這裡補酒,要來這裡吞喝,要來這裡拍攝,要把它撈開,就這樣而已,你們有其他目的嗎?沒有啊,你們就是要這樣而已,台灣人有沒有看過,你們就這樣,大家說整套的,說到嘴巴全破,目的一個,就是要有熱情的拍攝,"},{"start":9787.285,"end":9793.997,"text":"要給總統批判正常的行為的定數不要走不信任我們這個處理行政議長你也不要那有千千萬萬個喬龍泰"},{"start":9799.97,"end":9804.151,"text":"制度的設計 如果制度的設計 你們覺得不開心制度的設計 你們覺得不高興就來修憲 如果修很多條就整期不要修憲 要衝一波新的也可以對不對 你們這樣一直拖一直拖讓你們在這裡講話 我看就想說你們的全國行為就很趣味 用國家的錢去煉煉味 煉這個熱情滴"},{"start":9829.244,"end":9830.965,"text":"這樣要說這要跟人家彈劾,我是不知道說臨江這個特政帝的、特法律的教科書裡面,要記錄這條,記錄這條彈劾,發起彈劾的政黨說,我也知道不會過,發起一個知道不會過的彈劾,這叫做教科書要怎麼寫。"},{"start":9852.59,"end":9865.313,"text":"這教科書要對米也很多法律的專家啦 政敵的專家啦人家你敢說什麼什麼說中華民國在思想 台灣在思想在野黨發動一下 要通過彈劾這是要怎麼解釋 解釋法行廳說我們就是法醫了 怎麼樣我們就是要創大清廳了 怎麼樣難道是這樣來解釋嗎"},{"start":9882.062,"end":9884.224,"text":"所以今天這個公聽會,我聽到教授說的真的有道理,有的要抄斷,有的意識形態太狂,還有人怕不到會議席,對於中道委,"},{"start":9900.598,"end":9906.263,"text":"叫我們今天主題無關的阿媽大講十分鐘 你是去吃了黃國昌的水嗎黃國昌這順序來就沒有在教主題今天在討論的是彈劾賴清德的公聽會講一講就叫今天節目都無關的阿媽大這樣講 不知道對一個政黨推薦的所以最後 簡單結論今天這個公聽會辦了 我是建議這樣"},{"start":9927.383,"end":9931.165,"text":"要投票 要標高 要彈劾賴清德 金融用的反正就不會過你們要拖 為了你們個人政黨的選舉要全國行為 用國家的錢辦這個選舉實在是沒意思啦 以上好 謝謝我們的黃委員接下來我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":9951.772,"end":9980.104,"text":"主席各位學者專家各位委員還有準備離場的王逸川委員大家好接下來我要發表一篇非常重要的彈劾宣言重量級的彈劾宣言我希望尤其民進黨的委員能夠豎起耳朵聽清楚非常重要非常重要有一點長要花一點時間我把這個彈劾宣言念完"},{"start":9981.789,"end":10009.227,"text":"作为国家领导人没有能力解决国家的问题对人民痛苦毫无感觉已经是严重的失职他发动政治斗争不仅粗暴蛮干无视法纪更对民主宪政缺乏起码的尊重毁宪乱政逾越总统的宪法分纪"},{"start":10010.379,"end":10032.892,"text":"操控司法掩護行政也介入國會事務這是嚴重侵犯三權分立的憲政架構總統一人獨大引起政局動盪民心不安也讓台灣陷入嚴重的憲政危機讓民主法治受到專政的威脅"},{"start":10034.503,"end":10051.05,"text":"為了守護民主 挽救憲政危機遏止總統違憲擴權的行為我們在立法院發動對總統的彈劾案理由有四第一 依照分權制衡的憲政原理"},{"start":10052.693,"end":10065.886,"text":"國會是總統的監督機關,對於總統侵犯立法權的行為,國會有必要採取積極行動,捍衛國會的尊嚴,以及伸張憲政上的權益。"},{"start":10067.247,"end":10096.607,"text":"第二,依照宪法规定,总统违法乱纪的行为是透过弹劾来制衡。此次总统的行为涉及侵犯宪政秩序,理应透过发动弹劾的宪政行动来反制。第三,依照立法院职权行使法,总统弹劾案经立法委员二分之一的连述提议,即交程序委员会编列议程提报院会。"},{"start":10098.38,"end":10111.356,"text":"不經討論及交全院委員會審查在審查時得邀請總統列席說明透過總統必須親自面對國會此一程序可充分彰顯國會是總統的憲政監督機關角色"},{"start":10116.963,"end":10134.729,"text":"不容总统反过来践踏立法权第四弹劾案与表决时是以无记名方式进行相当程度可让立法委员的意志免于总统瑕疵有利国会自主意志的呈现"},{"start":10135.709,"end":10154.801,"text":"我們要嚴肅呼籲總統當立法院發動彈劾案時應該坦蕩接受國會的檢驗如果認為自己並無違憲行為請不要把手伸進立法院不能透過黨紀要求立法院黨團阻擋彈劾案同時"},{"start":10156.127,"end":10174.428,"text":"也要呼籲不分黨派所有立法委員將國會尊嚴放在政黨利益之上請一致支持彈劾案在立法院成案讓總統到立法院接受檢驗用憲法上的藥來治憲政的亂"},{"start":10177.086,"end":10199.582,"text":"這是2013年9月14號民進黨前主席蘇貞昌的彈劾宣言夠重量級吧字字句句穿透賴清德總統的心臟只要把他這個總統他說的是馬英九換成賴清德完全完美的貼合貼線這就是民進黨嘛"},{"start":10203.81,"end":10227.138,"text":"這是蘇貞昌的彈劾賴清澤總統宣言嘛預言家來來來我今天不是以羅志強身份坐在這個地方我是以蘇貞昌的身份坐在這個地方我幫蘇貞昌來說文解字他這麼偉大重量級名流輕始的彈劾宣言幫他重量級的說文解字一下"},{"start":10228.464,"end":10252.799,"text":"蘇貞昌說作為國家領導人沒有能力解決國家問題對人民痛苦毫無感覺嚴重失職說的就是賴清德蘇貞昌說他發動政治鬥爭粗暴蠻幹無視法紀對民主憲政缺乏尊重說的就是發動大惡霸政治鬥爭在野黨的賴清德總統"},{"start":10256.04,"end":10272.829,"text":"蘇貞昌說毀憲亂政逾越總統憲法分際操縱司法掩護行政說的就是賴清德今天把大法官會議搞成仇安會五人仇安會違反所謂的憲政倫理"},{"start":10274.318,"end":10293.348,"text":"大法官之前自己都说死刑判决要一字决就这五位仇安会大法官可以直接把三个跟他不同意见的大法官直接名单剔除消音然后说我五个人说了算你之前死刑判决才说一字决"},{"start":10294.389,"end":10321.056,"text":"就是賴清德操控司法掩護行政蘇貞昌罵得太好了總統一人獨大民心不安侵犯三權分立的憲政架構蘇貞昌說也是在罵賴清德不附屬不執行不公佈整個毀憲亂政不就是蘇貞昌口中嚴重侵犯三權分立的憲政架構嗎"},{"start":10323.421,"end":10345.157,"text":"蘇貞昌說為了守護民主 挽救憲政危機所以要遏止違憲擴權的行為要在立法院發動對總統彈劾有四大理由蘇貞昌四大理由我來把蘇貞昌四大理由再說文解釋一下蘇貞昌說依照分權制衡憲政原理國會是總統的監督機關"},{"start":10348.727,"end":10369.153,"text":"對於總統侵犯立法權的行為國會有必要採取積極行動這是為什麼今天我們國會要提出對賴清德的彈劾案完全遵從蘇貞昌的指示啊第二個蘇貞昌說依照憲法規定總統違法亂進行為要透過彈劾來"},{"start":10375.677,"end":10401.017,"text":"而總統的行為侵犯憲法秩序就要用彈劾的憲政行動來反制我們也是秉照蘇貞昌的主張用憲政行動來反制今天賴清德的毀憲亂政蘇貞昌說的第三個理由要邀請總統列席說明總統必須親自面對國會此一程序所以拜託賴清德總統聽聽蘇貞昌的話"},{"start":10404.71,"end":10429.528,"text":"下個禮拜邀請賴總統來立法院到會說明不要讓蘇貞昌失望應立法院的邀來國會來跟人民說明你種種毀憲亂政的行為辯護一下歡迎他來辯護一下蘇貞昌說第四點理由也非常好彈劾是無記名"},{"start":10430.782,"end":10458.345,"text":"我們應該讓立法委員的意志免於總統瑕疵所以有利國會自主所以呼籲不要把手伸進立法院也不要透過黨紀來約束民進黨的立法委員阻擋彈劾案賴總統聽聽蘇貞昌的話公開宣布歡迎民進黨的立委撥亂反正加入彈劾賴清德總統的行列"},{"start":10459.591,"end":10488.582,"text":"蘇貞昌說他要呼籲不分黨派的立法委員將國會尊嚴放在政黨利益之上一致支持彈劾案在立法院成案要請總統到立法院接受檢驗蘇貞昌說用憲法上的藥來治憲政上的亂就讓我們用彈劾來治今天賴清德總統在憲政上的作亂最後我要說的是"},{"start":10489.946,"end":10510.245,"text":"今天我們可以看到一個只獲得40%雙少數的賴清德總統他當選時候說行政立法協調合作共同推動國政但他說一套做一套在他任期這一年半的期間"},{"start":10512.164,"end":10539.805,"text":"親自發動大惡霸政治鬥爭請全部的力量動用司法清算在野黨的主席然後搜索清算在野黨的黨部然後他又同時把手伸進司法搞出了五人華天下大機制五人大法官籌安會來為他的今天的毀憲亂政做遮羞補"},{"start":10541.516,"end":10552.859,"text":"他創立了不附屬不公佈不執行的憲政首要惡例來侵犯立法權政要總統不彈劾他彈劾誰 謝謝好 謝謝羅委員我們現在審查"},{"start":10560.552,"end":10578.292,"text":"小組委員的詢問都已經發言完畢現在要進行最後一個程序請學者專家針對剛才審查小組委員的詢問提出綜合答覆每位三分鐘首先請張祺祿教授發言"},{"start":10580.291,"end":10608.339,"text":"謝謝副院長還有各位委員那我想其實今天聽了大家的這個所有的這個發言其實大家更可以知道一件事就是知道我們現在這個制度有多麼的荒唐多麼的荒謬我必須直說啦台灣的這種所謂半總統制那其實他是先天不良後天又失調我也必須直接說啦今天我們在座所有人的發言我希望大家都把它"},{"start":10608.999,"end":10628.969,"text":"牢記於心為什麼因為哪一天不要換了這個位置你就會發現你真的會被打臉其實剛才我覺得羅委員談出來的這個非常的棒其實今天我覺得我們每一位各黨派的這個發言其實你真的要仔細想看因為哪一天也許你就會換了那個位置"},{"start":10630.017,"end":10654.391,"text":"所以今天才真正的我也必須直說啦今天如果簡短來講當然我想在執政黨當然一直在這個必須作為一個護航那但是你要仔細想想看今天如果今天是在野今天的總統如果是國民黨在做是民眾黨在做那也可以容許發生這些事情嗎"},{"start":10655.231,"end":10674.93,"text":"也可以這樣幹嗎所以我覺得這才是真實的問題所以我一直在強調說這個制度的面其實坦白說我們要把一個總統制跟一個議會內閣制混在一起本身就已經出了大問題了因為我們的總統就是有權但是他沒有任何的責任"},{"start":10676.131,"end":10698.034,"text":"但是行政院長就是有無限責任但是沒有權所以今天當然我想執政黨方面一直說不然你們就來彈劾這個行政院長可是說實話也沒有什麼真的實質的意義啦那當然不要說現在這個彈劾制度了那另外的話那雖然說用倒閣的方式可是這個倒了我剛才其實在我的發言也講了"},{"start":10698.715,"end":10724.407,"text":"其實總統是可以直接再任命他一次的都可以的所以事實上這是就是無解我現在已經必須一直強調我們現在就是真實的無解那坦白說離台灣制度最接近的其實是像法國的這種雙手掌制其實是以我們目前來看這也就是為什麼之前我想民眾黨柯文哲前主席也談過為什麼這個聯合政府的這個概念必須被談出來"},{"start":10725.509,"end":10750.93,"text":"因為事實上法國就常常面臨這種狀況你怎麼管理分裂管理衝突那你怎麼去做好這件事情我們其實今天還是站在國家的立場我們希望國家的制度能長持久安能走下去而不是誰奪到了這個總統大位的權利都搞成獨裁我覺得這才是我們今天台灣真正所有的民眾要必須想清楚的今天我們如果你放任的是民進黨"},{"start":10752.389,"end":10769.638,"text":"可以繼續這樣子玩下去可是你知道哪一天萬一又換上別人執政的時候是不是你也容忍所以今天我覺得憑著良心來說話所有都是應該回到制度來看謝謝張教授下一位我們請陳怡凱教授"},{"start":10771.364,"end":10796.854,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位在座來賓 大家好我們綜合一下剛剛幾位委員的發言包括王洪威委員有提到說在野黨獨裁是認為說這是不可能的世界上是不可能的事實上國會的多數利用多數來造成獨裁這是有這種例子的2015年波蘭的國會它是由一個"},{"start":10798.034,"end":10814.274,"text":"法律与正义党就是PIS党他取得国会多数然后他也是利用这个方式来修改他们的波兰宪法法院法但是波兰宪法法院还是把这个新修改的波兰宪法法院法判决违宪无效他也跟他的反应呢"},{"start":10815.155,"end":10834.781,"text":"這個PIS黨的反應就跟我們目前的這個藍白議員的反應是一模一樣的就自己就宣告這個判決是無效的憲法法院的判決無效因為呢憲法法院自己宣告波蘭憲法法院法是無效的那因此呢這裡所造成的這裡的獨裁呢已經經過這個歐盟的執委會呢發動調查"},{"start":10836.141,"end":10860.143,"text":"然後認為說波蘭它違反了法治國的原則然後以及後續的PIS黨又陸續的制定了最高法院法還有國家司法委員會法通通安排自己的人去當法官這裡也被歐洲人權法院跟歐盟法院宣告這裡是違反司法獨立的所以這裡都是可能的"},{"start":10860.583,"end":10874.436,"text":"那我們在說我國到底是什麼制度呢我們不是我說了算或是我們必須要硬套哪一個國家的總統制、內閣制而是由我國的大法官他自己說特別是在613號解釋"},{"start":10877.134,"end":10899.884,"text":"林子儀大法官在這個部分協同意見書他已經講了目前的這個權力分立與制衡不是形式主義的那種所謂的國會專門就是在立法而不是行政那行政專門是在行政而不是立法並沒有這樣的一個形式主義而是兩個數個國家機關要一起合作的那在這個理解之下"},{"start":10902.088,"end":10911.722,"text":"就是說我們退回復翼以及被國會議員又維持原案在這裡必須是兩個機關的一起的合作那麼在這裡"},{"start":10915.302,"end":10933.997,"text":"對不起 這個委員他已經說那麼這樣退回復翼它是什麼意思這個意思就是形成僵局那這個僵局就是要由是不是你要發動這個倒閣來解決這個僵局那你如果沒有發動倒閣的話呢這個僵局那仍然是在的那因此這必須要兩個的同意"},{"start":10934.437,"end":10961.335,"text":"那也不能自居於說國會的多數那就變成行政院都必須就只能遵守那只能去附屬那總統就只能公佈並沒有這樣一個法理那必須比如說民進黨他在國會議員他雖然是他至少還有五十一席那五十一席你不能說他的名義通通不重要了一律通通必須要只能遵守好 謝謝好 謝謝陳教授接下來請張亞中教授"},{"start":10962.998,"end":10984.872,"text":"听了今天民进党的谈话其实非常失望我有几点想讲第一点造妖镜它的确没有办法灭妖但是可以造出妖的原型弹劾案它不是挪诈的三昧真火因此烧不到赖清德但是造妖镜可以造出赖清德违宪以及正向走向民选独裁的事实"},{"start":10986.016,"end":11013.812,"text":"從今天民進黨委員的發言來看這個造妖鏡不只造出賴清德民選獨裁的原型連民進黨立法委員的沒有是非只有立場知識有限良心不足的原型都造出來了我突然發現原來這些民進黨的參與者都是只會跟著主人叫的鸚鵡一群鸚鵡不思考不判斷只會重複賴清德以及民進黨中央做那些主人教的話"},{"start":11014.994,"end":11043.912,"text":"第二点今天所有民进党的发言都把不复属的不复属的责任推给卓荣泰这个对吗在经过多次修宪以后行政院长已经是总统的执行长叫国民党倒戈这对吗冤有头债有主如果赖清德不同意不复属行政院长敢吗赖清德自己可以换掉行政院长啊赖清德不是党主席吗卓荣泰不是党员吗"},{"start":11045.643,"end":11071.023,"text":"第三点民进党代表说现有的制度有问题显示赖清德并没有错如果要修正而非弹劾赖清德而是应该修改宪法我们大家要知道德国的威马宪法曾经号称全世界最完美的宪法但是也出现了纳粹的独裁我告诉各位世界上没有一个完美的宪法因此当权者的自治是非常必要的"},{"start":11072.537,"end":11097.617,"text":"不是能不能而是该不该做这些事赖总统他不是赖章鱼啊各位章鱼是什么多出手非常善于传绕能够缝隙能够钻就钻能够穿就穿他用每一条出手钻进制度的黑色地带灰色地带所以说我们是赖总统你不是赖章鱼啊第四个民进党面对大罢免到目前还不知道悔改"},{"start":11099.032,"end":11127.876,"text":"罷免是人民的基本权益但是民进党把它操作成斗争的工具要改变立法院少数的结构赖清德主导是要消灭在野党的大罷免这是民选独裁的重要迹象第五点我必须要讲吴思瑶说无爱无私 吴更爱真理对自己的老师当然可以攻击但是吴的批评的理由只是太肤浅了因此我也要谴责彭景鹏教授怎么教出这种学生但是换个角度来看"},{"start":11129.195,"end":11143.221,"text":"那位吳思耀委員只是維護他的意識形態跟政權而蒙蔽了他的良知吳委員充分地演繹了什麼是吳愛吳思吳更愛權力如果他今天不是民進黨的立委可能一切就恢復正常了"},{"start":11144.022,"end":11168.227,"text":"第六點 民進黨說民進黨代表說彈劾是中共的背後操作這真的可悲啊這永遠是民進黨的辯詞只要對自己不利就說是中共的陰謀第七點最後一點感想看到今天民進黨的表演我的感想台灣的民主真的是生病了謝謝大家好 謝謝張教授下一位我們請林俊宏律師好 謝謝主席"},{"start":11172.819,"end":11198.716,"text":"我還是要先強調一個部分因為這個部分其實剛剛前面一直都有提到就是說這件事情本質上是憲政上的僵局是立法權跟行政權的僵局僵局的解決就要回到我們的憲政制度去解決所以我剛剛在前面有提到憲政制度是什麼已經有講過了今天我們在這邊討論我想要用一個更白話的情境來談我們現在碰到的狀況假設大家設想有一個職業球隊"},{"start":11201.103,"end":11224.591,"text":"總教練他要選秀他每年都要選秀今天球探部門來了一份球探的報告球員的調查報告這個總教練後來基於他個人的判斷他決定不要依照這個報告來選秀他就這樣去選秀了這個時候選完了之後球員很生氣就是說你這總教練你為什麼不按照球探報告去選秀後來球迷去告球團老闆說你背信"},{"start":11232.554,"end":11260.882,"text":"这件事情跟我们现在讲的我们坐在这边处理的事情很接近很接近第一件事情是你的职权对象搞错了选秀到底谁在选总教练在选那他选的好不好他是他的裁量你去告球团老板说你犯罪你背信了第二件事情性质搞错了选秀选的好不好这个是经营判断那他就是评价的问题那也就是政治责任"},{"start":11262.213,"end":11287.353,"text":"那如果老闆沒有特別違法的狀況掏空球團或者是怎麼樣打假球的情形在這種狀況下你要去告老闆感覺上蠻奇怪的我們今天在這邊所處理的事情就是剛剛講的例子完全搞不清楚狀況我們試圖用法律責任的皮去包對於政治不爽的骨我們不只浪費我們寶貴的國家資源也在傷害我們的憲政體制"},{"start":11288.98,"end":11307.79,"text":"憲政體制不應該也不可以被降格為政治僵局底下的鬥爭工具如果我們對於我們現有的機制不滿意我們應該要誠實地面對我們的制度我們去討論修憲而不是在現行的框架底下玩這種標的錯誤邏輯不通的政治遊戲謝謝大家好 謝謝林律師下一位請彭錦鵬教授"},{"start":11316.448,"end":11342.378,"text":"第一點讓我看到剛剛王委員是多麼無知多麼無恥竟然敢挑戰我說的這個太難得了因為他根本不知道說大法官任期條款是我在國民大會擔任國大代表的時候我的提案我是領銜人我是設計者"},{"start":11344.051,"end":11369.569,"text":"我還有當年吳耿老師的手稿我都可以公佈這是第一點第二點剛剛亞中兄突然來一筆說我沒有教好吳思瑤這也太過分了我總共只教過他兩門課而已一個是人事管理一個是行政管理沒有管到他的政治意識第三點"},{"start":11374.099,"end":11391.077,"text":"剛剛齊璐兄已經講了非常多有關於我們憲法缺失的問題但是這些缺失的源頭都在於當年國民黨以為說還可以永續執政所以就不採用這個直選因為怕萬一直選總統的話"},{"start":11392.915,"end":11405.886,"text":"那麼會有什麼不好的結果對於長期執政會有所不好最後選擇的是一個我們只有一輪投票其實總統制國家大概都是兩輪兩輪選舉產生過半數的"},{"start":11410.45,"end":11436.859,"text":"那我們修憲確實有必要但是也確實不可能我也曾經長久以來我都提出來說如果要修憲的話我們大概要採用的辦法是叫做國際標的方式我們去選出來成套的憲法修正案然後由立法院來選擇哪一個是最好然後才交由人民公投我仍然覺得這是一個可行的方式"},{"start":11438.151,"end":11464.188,"text":"第三個是有關於大法官的提名套去民眾黨前黨主席柯文哲所講的其實一念之間奈親者總統如果一念之間會覺得說我們憲法是要保護的是要遵循的有這個義務的話他隨時可以在兩個月內提出適當的人選"},{"start":11465.458,"end":11490.777,"text":"当初我设计大法官任期条款的时候也都特别有叫做能够有一个复任的可能性虽然我们禁止了连任但是复任复任的意思就是像许忠利或者是汤德忠他们当过了但是过了一段时间以后他还是可以再续任的这没有问题"},{"start":11491.607,"end":11508.128,"text":"所以這完全看我們賴總統他願意不願意負責任的來互獻就這樣好 謝謝接下來我們請周威廷局長"},{"start":11512.674,"end":11531.102,"text":"好 剛才有人 吳委員說台語 我也練幾句台語了這個委員說 南白委員是沒有補的 他想要彈劾一招但是我們要自己信任說 這是立法院的權利這人既然是立法院的權利 這就是補嗎 第一點 他說彈劾不好"},{"start":11535.905,"end":11543.129,"text":"這才是內政總統說的小說內政總統也說彈劾不好是浪費時間但是抱歉 動724 動823科建民主黨也信任 總統完全知道這也是一個不好的大罷免 32比0我們民進黨朋友說大罷免是大漏氣這不但是浪費時間"},{"start":11565.533,"end":11589.44,"text":"還浪費了社會資本中選會說開到十五億總共合起來將近三十億這不是大氣味嗎接著我想針對我被批評說今天不知道跟彈劾有什麼關係其實我一開宗明義我就講了彈劾根據公務人員有沒有違法跟赤子我針對赤子我彈了違而不當當違而不違"},{"start":11592.011,"end":11621.184,"text":"不當而為所以我提出了警察人員人事條例三十五條的修正案來做例證甚至舉授軍人條例以及後來的教師以及公務人員的撫恤之前的條例跟辦法一再的申請釋憲認為治案難行剋寫的三分毀就是由大法官不足的大法官來做解釋"},{"start":11623.598,"end":11631.159,"text":"因此 這是誰在縱容 我剛剛講了 五院之首是誰 是我們今天賴清德總統他讓這樣子的做法不斷的發生 十歲之位一再的執行難道不應該被彈劾嗎 難道不應該彈劾嗎這就是彈劾的依據"},{"start":11652.97,"end":11672.911,"text":"當然剛才教授 佛教授也說了彈劾無效的原因是因為我們在立法院的支持這些法案的委員人數不足但它有宣誓性的意義讓人家知道我們是有一個違法違憲應該受到彈劾的總統這樣聽得懂嗎 謝謝"},{"start":11677.752,"end":11677.772,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":11702.948,"end":11724.648,"text":"謝謝剛剛的周局長也感謝我們今天各位學者專家綜合答覆的部分我們就到此為止今天的公聽會非常感謝各位學者專家以及審查小組的委員發表寶貴的意見本日公聽會的發言紀錄跟書面資料將依相關規定分送全體委員及"},{"start":11725.569,"end":11740.075,"text":"与会的学者专家作为参考并列入本院公报记录作为国会正式记录再次谢谢各位的与会今天第二场公听会就进行到此为止现在散会谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"167114","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167114","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b78dbf1d8505ac72b8f9a22b521a60036df79df2e988dc3d7842f56f076dfd423657b01c8c35754b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:16:57 - 11:27:02","影片長度":"00:10:05","會議時間":"2026-01-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場）（事由：第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場））","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-15","start_time":"2026-01-15T11:16:57+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-15T11:27:02+08:00","duration":605,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.35159375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.7353437500000002,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.695968750000002,"end":17.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.01971875,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.93909375,"end":24.668468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.95534375,"end":25.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.60909375,"end":30.372218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.722218750000003,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.32096875,"end":36.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.79721875,"end":42.775343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.821593750000005,"end":47.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.00659375,"end":49.744718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.01471875,"end":53.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.891593750000006,"end":59.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.30846875,"end":65.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.07971875,"end":69.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.60221875,"end":79.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.68096875,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.32159375,"end":91.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.23596875000001,"end":96.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.45034375,"end":101.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.17534375000001,"end":111.42284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.72659375,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.19409375000001,"end":117.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.30784375,"end":134.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.52471875,"end":138.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.18659375000001,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.70409375,"end":166.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.84034375000002,"end":185.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.48721875,"end":205.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.97346875000002,"end":224.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.88159375,"end":236.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.31034375000002,"end":241.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.00159375,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.18221875,"end":249.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.04659375000003,"end":252.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.39221875,"end":256.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.25659375000004,"end":258.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.01159375000003,"end":277.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.38409375000003,"end":288.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.59346875,"end":320.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.65596875,"end":323.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.25034375,"end":332.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.77221875000004,"end":338.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.61096875000004,"end":343.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.31471875,"end":350.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.23346875000004,"end":354.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.69284375,"end":357.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.48971875,"end":361.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.45971875000004,"end":371.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.46221875000003,"end":389.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.19784375,"end":397.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.50034375,"end":405.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.95909375,"end":414.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.44284375,"end":424.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.58909375,"end":434.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.61284375,"end":439.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.02971875000003,"end":451.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.44971875000005,"end":453.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.64346875,"end":459.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.89159375,"end":461.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.77721875000003,"end":470.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.07971875000004,"end":472.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.69971875000005,"end":474.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.92721875,"end":478.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.35284375000003,"end":480.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.68159375000005,"end":488.14034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.91659375,"end":497.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.50159375000004,"end":499.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.48034375000003,"end":503.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.03659375,"end":508.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.48721875,"end":520.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.43909375,"end":523.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.7465937500001,"end":528.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.16346875,"end":532.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.1965937500001,"end":536.8078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.60096875,"end":538.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.8959687500001,"end":541.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.56221875,"end":547.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.3840937500001,"end":550.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.3078437500001,"end":554.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.35346875,"end":556.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.0872187500001,"end":560.9053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.64784375,"end":564.7865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.17471875,"end":570.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.04721875,"end":575.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.0547187500001,"end":580.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.5772187499999,"end":591.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.44909375,"end":597.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.9965937500001,"end":599.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.78534375,"end":600.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.03409375,"end":603.1772187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.79,"end":25.646,"text":"主席 各位學者專家 各位委員還有準備離場的王逸川委員 大家好接下來我要發表一篇非常重要的彈劾宣言重量級的彈劾宣言我希望尤其民進黨的委員能夠豎起耳朵聽清楚非常重要 非常重要"},{"start":26.687,"end":53.551,"text":"有一点长 要花一点时间我把这个弹劾宣言念完作为国家领导人没有能力解决国家的问题对人民痛苦毫无感觉已经是严重的失职他发动政治斗争不仅粗暴蛮干无视法纪更对民主宪政缺乏起码的尊重"},{"start":54.963,"end":83.152,"text":"毁宪乱政逾越总统的宪法分际操控司法掩护行政也介入国会事务这是严重侵犯三权分立的宪政架构总统一人独大引起政局动荡民心不安也让台湾陷入严重的宪政危机让民主法治受到专政的威胁"},{"start":84.523,"end":101.08,"text":"為了守護民主 挽救憲政危機遏止總統違憲擴權的行為我們在立法院發動對總統的彈劾案理由有四第一 依照分權制衡的憲政原理"},{"start":102.23,"end":102.37,"text":"第二"},{"start":118.393,"end":146.613,"text":"依照宪法规定总统违法乱纪的行为是透过弹劾来制衡此次总统的行为涉及侵犯宪政秩序理应透过发动弹劾的宪政行动来反制第三依照立法院职权行使法总统弹劾案经立法委员二分之一的连述提议及交程序委员会编列议程提报院会"},{"start":147.779,"end":161.368,"text":"不經討論及交全院委員會審查在審查時得邀請總統列席說明透過總統必須親自面對國會此一程序可充分彰顯國會是總統的憲政監督機關角色"},{"start":166.952,"end":184.748,"text":"不容总统反过来践踏立法权第四弹劾案与表决时是以无记名方式进行相当程度可让立法委员的意志免于总统挟持有利国会自主意志的呈现"},{"start":185.729,"end":204.799,"text":"我們要嚴肅呼籲總統當立法院發動彈劾案時應該坦蕩接受國會的檢驗如果認為自己並無違憲行為請不要把手伸進立法院不能透過黨紀要求立法院黨團阻擋彈劾案同時"},{"start":206.124,"end":224.445,"text":"也要呼籲不分黨派所有立法委員將國會尊嚴放在政黨利益之上請一致支持彈劾案在立法院成案讓總統到立法院接受檢驗用憲法上的藥來治憲政的亂"},{"start":227.106,"end":249.602,"text":"這是2013年9月14號民進黨前主席蘇貞昌的彈劾宣言夠重量級吧字字句句穿透賴清德總統的心臟只要把他這個總統他說的是馬英九換成賴清德完全完美的貼合貼線這就是民進黨嘛"},{"start":253.55,"end":277.138,"text":"這是蘇貞昌的彈劾賴清澤總統宣言嘛預言家來來來我今天不是以羅志強身份坐在這個地方我是以蘇貞昌的身份坐在這個地方啊我幫蘇貞昌來說文解字他這麼偉大重量級名流輕始的彈劾宣言幫他重量級的說文解字一下"},{"start":278.484,"end":302.815,"text":"蘇貞昌說作為國家領導人沒有能力解決國家問題對人民痛苦毫無感覺嚴重失職說的就是賴清德蘇貞昌說他發動政治鬥爭粗暴蠻幹無視法紀對民主憲政缺乏尊重說的就是發動大惡霸政治鬥爭在野黨的賴清德總統"},{"start":306.04,"end":322.844,"text":"蘇貞昌說毀憲亂政逾越總統憲法分際操縱司法掩護行政說的就是賴清德今天把大法官會議搞成仇安會 五人仇安會違反所謂的憲政倫理"},{"start":324.324,"end":343.364,"text":"大法官之前自己都说死刑判决要一字决就这五位仇安会大法官可以直接把三个跟他不同意见的大法官直接名单剔除消音然后说我五个人说了算你之前死刑判决才说一字决"},{"start":344.406,"end":371.084,"text":"就是賴清德操控司法掩護行政蘇貞昌罵得太好了總統一人獨大民心不安侵犯三權分立的憲政架構蘇貞昌說也是在罵賴清德不附屬不執行不公佈整個毀憲亂政不就是蘇貞昌口中嚴重侵犯三權分立的憲政架構嗎"},{"start":373.421,"end":395.157,"text":"蘇貞昌說為了守護民主 挽救憲政危機所以要遏止違憲擴權的行為要在立法院發動對總統彈劾有四大理由蘇貞昌四大理由我來把蘇貞昌四大理由再說文解釋一下蘇貞昌說依照分權制衡憲政原理國會是總統的監督機關"},{"start":398.724,"end":419.17,"text":"對於總統侵犯立法權的行為國會有必要採取積極行動這是為什麼今天我們國會要提出對賴清德的彈劾案完全遵從蘇貞昌的指示啊第二個蘇貞昌說依照憲法規定總統違法亂紀行為要透過彈劾來"},{"start":425.693,"end":450.998,"text":"而總統的行為侵犯憲法秩序就要用彈劾的憲政行動來反制我們也是秉照蘇貞昌的主張用憲政行動來反制今天賴清德的毀憲亂政蘇貞昌說的第三個理由要邀請總統列席說明總統必須親自面對國會此一程序所以拜託賴清德總統聽聽蘇貞昌的話"},{"start":454.727,"end":479.545,"text":"下個禮拜邀請賴總統來立法院到會說明不要讓蘇貞昌失望應立法院的邀來國會來跟人民說明你種種毀憲亂政的行為辯護一下歡迎他來辯護一下蘇貞昌說第四點理由也非常好彈劾是無記名"},{"start":480.802,"end":508.351,"text":"我們應該讓立法委員的意志免於總統瑕疵所以有利國會自主所以呼籲不要把手伸進立法院也不要透過黨紀來約束民進黨的立法委員阻擋彈劾案賴總統聽聽蘇貞昌的話公開宣布歡迎民進黨的立委撥亂反正加入彈劾賴清德總統的行列"},{"start":509.771,"end":538.582,"text":"蘇貞昌說他呼籲不分黨派的立法委員將國會尊嚴放在政黨利益之上一致支持彈劾案在立法院成案要請總統到立法院接受檢驗蘇貞昌說用憲法上的藥來治憲政上的亂就讓我們用彈劾來治今天賴清德總統在憲政上的作亂最後我要說的是"},{"start":539.943,"end":560.245,"text":"今天我們可以看到一個只獲得40%雙少數的戴慶德總統他當選時候說行政立法協調合作共同推動國政但他說一套做一套在他任期這一年半的期間"},{"start":562.164,"end":589.592,"text":"親自發動大惡霸政治鬥爭請全部的力量動用司法清算在野黨的主席然後搜索清算在野黨的黨部然後他又同時把手伸進司法搞出了五人華天下大機制五人大法官籌安會來為他的今天的毀憲亂政做遮羞補"},{"start":591.533,"end":601.441,"text":"他創立了不附屬不公佈不執行的憲政首要惡力來侵犯立法權這樣的總統不彈劾他彈劾誰 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167111","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167111","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b78dbf1d8505ac72497051ec97b0dae66df79df2e988dc3d7842f56f076dfd4260a2c0502c4bf3f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:46:42 - 10:58:25","影片長度":"00:11:43","會議時間":"2026-01-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場）（事由：第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場））","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-15","start_time":"2026-01-15T10:46:42+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-15T10:58:25+08:00","duration":703,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8072187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.53284375,"end":6.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.20159375,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.93909375,"end":23.453468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.48721875,"end":25.309718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.10284375,"end":26.828468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.351593750000003,"end":28.364093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.65096875,"end":29.579093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.832218750000003,"end":34.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.080343750000004,"end":40.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.12159375,"end":41.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.049718750000004,"end":43.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.04534375,"end":55.634093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.954718750000005,"end":56.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.13596875,"end":89.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":103.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.39034375,"end":105.51659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.68534375,"end":115.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.06346875000001,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.36284375000001,"end":126.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.82971875000001,"end":147.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.40034375000002,"end":171.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.45971875,"end":180.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.74534375000002,"end":183.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.90096875,"end":185.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.29284375,"end":189.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.79034375,"end":192.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.32159375,"end":225.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.67909375000002,"end":272.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.46096875,"end":290.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.58034375,"end":296.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.50784375,"end":301.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.26221875000005,"end":302.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.03846875,"end":318.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.37784375,"end":327.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.96284375000005,"end":372.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.63096875,"end":384.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.01721875000004,"end":413.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.65409375,"end":436.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.55346875000004,"end":440.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.97471875,"end":463.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.14409375,"end":471.23159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.39596875,"end":473.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.11284375,"end":476.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.57659375000003,"end":509.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.57159375000003,"end":514.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.1865937499999,"end":542.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.38909375,"end":546.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.5109687500001,"end":553.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.1384687500001,"end":586.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.09534375,"end":600.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.74284375,"end":611.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.8172187499999,"end":623.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.08534375,"end":626.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.07221875,"end":630.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.25721875,"end":647.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.03096875,"end":704.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.23159375,"end":661.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.29846875,"end":691.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.2040937500001,"end":702.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.56659375,"end":703.97159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.072,"end":14.092,"text":"謝謝大會主席 謝謝今天參與的立委同仁以及學者專家們我就扣合著王育民委員剛剛所說的立法院正在寫歷史 這是台灣史上第一次的彈劾總統案"},{"start":15.273,"end":40.268,"text":"那麼我們就要負責任的寫下好的歷史對的歷史而不是無法對後代交代無法對歷史交代並不是賴清德總統違憲亂政而是我們有了史上前所未有惡上加惡的立法院我同意王玉民委員說的現在的憲政僵局問題在於人沒有錯"},{"start":41.172,"end":62.487,"text":"因为我们有了一再的违反宪法宪政机关平等相违原则一再的认为国会优位立院最大的在野党的立委们这些人才是真正出了问题的核心那下一页我其实不想提但我必须提早在这一届国会还未组成"},{"start":63.047,"end":86.409,"text":"正在即將組成的2024年2月1號前習近平已經下達指示拿下台灣戰場就在立法院我們來看看習近平國台辦頒布的佔領台灣立法院制高點的統戰戰略要點裡頭的幾項目標工作是不是就是台灣現在國會的社會進行式包括"},{"start":87.871,"end":114.711,"text":"來癱瘓台灣的國防自主包括用國會濫權來提出國會的調查權要求總統的質詢權要求總統到立院備詢不也正是現在彈劾案的現在進行式嗎包括習近平所指示的讓九二共識成為國會統戰互動的最高原則那我們來看看這不就是現在鄭麗文的所作所為嗎"},{"start":116.152,"end":141.892,"text":"所以說呢不是台灣社會在關心總統彈劾恐怕對岸也有相當高度的關切為什麼呢 下一頁當我們看到蔡正元 邱毅 郭正亮發起的彈劾賴清德總統的連署網站然後快速的被踢爆這個網站造假甚至一度暴增到高達14億人14億人來同意"},{"start":145.734,"end":171.501,"text":"彈劾賴清德總統那這樣一個假網站就搭配著認知作戰他的協力者就有這些發起連署的人有台灣的紅媒有中國的官媒一套劇本一條龍的操作連彈劾總統都大搞認知作戰煽動人民仇恨政府我們再看下一頁"},{"start":172.681,"end":185.034,"text":"國台辦果不其然很快速的紅藍白口徑一致都要求彈劾賴清德如果在野黨的委員要撇清反對這些"},{"start":187.341,"end":207.799,"text":"作為那為什麼自己自甘成為工具人為什麼自己讓自己跟中國的操作畫上了等號呢下一頁我們來看真實的民意喔民進黨的民調67%支持國會先審預算先顧民生而不支持大搞彈劾"},{"start":208.84,"end":222.572,"text":"你不相信民進黨的民調沒有關係我們看看一平新聞的民調也高達74%反對彈劾賴清德總統更也可以參考鄭傳媒委託山水民調公司的高達45%是不贊成彈劾總統的所以說下一頁"},{"start":226.916,"end":250.761,"text":"藍白所提的彈劾總統的三大謬誤就是欲加之罪何患無辭從把賴總統冠上獨裁總統或是毀憲亂政的罪名都是莫須有強加人於罪所以這是欲加之罪何患無辭的彈劾這也是畫錯重點搞錯方向的彈劾如果要追究總統的政治責任"},{"start":252.201,"end":269.631,"text":"請去勇敢的倒閣吧難道在野黨害怕民意的最終仲裁嗎而如果要藉由彈劾來要求邀請賴清德總統列席立法院那麼何必捨盡求遠就去走符合憲法規範的國情報告不就得了嗎第三這也是虛張聲勢自我催眠的假彈劾"},{"start":277.896,"end":300.029,"text":"因為藍白沒有三分之二的利潤席次而憲法法庭也被你們癱瘓被你們摧毀你們都知道這是一個彈劾不成的彈劾案下一頁我們來看看剛剛審發會委員針對這個天下奇聞大家一起共賞就是藍白所提的發動彈劾總統案的暗由"},{"start":303.215,"end":327.204,"text":"你們一再講幾個關鍵字就是賴清德是獨裁總統你們一再說賴清德是違憲亂政的總統在場也有我台大政研所的老師彭女彭老師無愛無私無更愛真理剛剛彭老師所說的賴清德是違憲的總統賴清德是違憲慣犯的總統不好意思無愛無私無更愛真理"},{"start":328.184,"end":352.578,"text":"賴清德總統是一個維護憲法的總統而藍白主導的立法院才是違憲上癮的立法院看看如果台灣有獨裁總統我們能夠讓在野黨的委員依循憲法的機制在立法院搞彈劾在立法院舉辦公聽會一再的羞辱總統做出這些"},{"start":353.519,"end":371.42,"text":"毫無事實依據的這些政治攻擊如果台灣是獨裁的國家何以能夠在立院發動彈劾呢所以這足以證明我們今天在這裡進行的公聽會台灣並不是獨裁國家更沒有獨裁總統 下一頁"},{"start":372.822,"end":384.262,"text":"沒有獨裁總統只有獨裁國會這些近父惡毒不經討論協商過水黑箱表決的議案才是獨裁國會的本質下一頁而"},{"start":385.211,"end":409.439,"text":"前所未見藍白真的寫下了台灣的歷史兩年有八個議案被申請釋憲中其中兩案已經被宣判違憲誰違憲亂證正是藍白主導的立法院兩年八個法案涉及違憲憲法法庭正在審議當中而兩案已經被宣判違憲下一頁"},{"start":413.74,"end":430.011,"text":"我們更要說除了今天的彈劾總統案在野黨以禁覆二讀以立院決議的方式譴責大法官宣判憲判無效的這一個提案違反了憲法78條違反了憲法訴訟法38條更違反釋字185號的解釋誰在違憲亂政"},{"start":436.636,"end":462.873,"text":"就是這種提案下一頁誰在違憲亂政在野黨甚至要用公投法來凌駕憲法要用公投來推翻憲判我們在場這麼多學者專家法律不能凌駕憲法這是所有學法律學政治的基本ABC所以誰在違憲亂政呢是立法院自證其罪下一頁"},{"start":464.215,"end":476.086,"text":"而在提案要求彈劾總統的理由裡頭剛剛一直講到大罷免國民黨你們要確定耶大罷免是人民發動的"},{"start":477.625,"end":497.396,"text":"真正發動大惡霸的是貴黨國民黨而坐在這裡的吳思瑤就是現在全台灣真的是被寫下歷史偽造連署高達2674份全台灣從以前到現在偽造連署死亡人連署高達94%這一個驚人的"},{"start":501.358,"end":514.426,"text":"歷史記錄我真的很遺憾是記錄在吳思瑤身上因為國民黨要搞大惡霸是你們用違法的方式你們要大惡霸沒搞成而已呀"},{"start":516.263,"end":545.803,"text":"人民依據憲法提起罷免的權利就如同今天在野黨的委員依據憲法提起彈劾總統一樣都是依據憲法那為什麼立法院可以人民不能夠行使他的罷免的基本公民權呢不要兩套標準而事實上國民黨才是發動大惡霸的元首只是你們沒有成功而已我就是當事人我也是受害者"},{"start":548.564,"end":562.21,"text":"至于法案不附属到底有没有构成弹劾总统的正当理由呢不管我们在场的陈一凯律师陈一凯教授有非常多的发表的意见我们也来看看陈一前教授所说的"},{"start":563.03,"end":586.057,"text":"行政院長行使憲法賦予的正當防衛權利怎麼會構成彈劾總統的理由呢羅承宗教授所說林佳和教授所說下一頁甚至許志雄大法官所說的行政院長的不附屬是阻止違憲法案的公佈實行那你要追究行政院長的政治責任再說一次 那你就去倒閣吧"},{"start":587.13,"end":600.593,"text":"那陈怡凯教授谢谢两天给我们非常精彩的论述我就不再赘述了所以呢法案不附属并不构成弹劾总统的合理合线的理由最后"},{"start":601.792,"end":625.127,"text":"要藉由大搞彈劾來羞辱總統在立法院搭建出一個可以羞辱總統政治表演的舞台倒數會期末的11天為什麼不審預算不審軍購至民生於何處至國安於何處呢好 最後時間我30秒收數這一本是周萬來秘書長寫的書"},{"start":627.148,"end":646.965,"text":"非常清楚針對總統的國情報告只要合憲合規總統願意來他多次表達而周萬來秘書長過去的著作就清楚的說明了國會進行國情報告是得邀請而不是應邀請"},{"start":648.166,"end":667.667,"text":"而急问急答并不是宪法赋予立法院的权利因为对立法院负责的是行政院长不是总统下一页好 谢谢好 最后一个我收束一下如果说要邀请赖总统来国情报告请合宪合规"},{"start":668.227,"end":692.501,"text":"因為過去針對違憲的急問急答的方式馬英九總統 王金平院長都說過萬萬不可不要讓台灣的憲政秩序而整個被大開民主的倒車我以這個頁面來收束過去馬英九怎麼說 王金平怎麼說現在的藍白委員"},{"start":693.562,"end":701.617,"text":"請不要一再的寫下錯誤的歷史寫下負面的歷史中華民國的國會不能夠讓惡例成為慣例"}]}},{"id":"167112","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167112","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b78dbf1d8505ac72f6cdca1932235a426df79df2e988dc3d7842f56f076dfd4243de59c930387d485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:58:30 - 11:08:47","影片長度":"00:10:17","會議時間":"2026-01-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場）（事由：第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場））","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-15","start_time":"2026-01-15T10:58:30+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-15T11:08:47+08:00","duration":617,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.388468750000001,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.33221875,"end":19.825343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.550968750000003,"end":31.148468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.35096875,"end":61.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.92846875,"end":65.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.47221875000001,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.53534375000001,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.81284375,"end":77.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.77409375,"end":88.65846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.53596875000001,"end":96.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.11284375000001,"end":97.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.20971875000001,"end":99.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.77909375,"end":112.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.92471875000001,"end":132.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.49971875,"end":134.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.99284375000002,"end":143.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.31221875,"end":147.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.05846875,"end":153.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.11659375000002,"end":168.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.27471875,"end":176.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.47159375,"end":188.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.21221875,"end":190.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.69721875000002,"end":195.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.08034375000003,"end":198.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.34159375000002,"end":200.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.21471875,"end":202.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.61096875,"end":205.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.00721875000002,"end":213.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.78221875000003,"end":219.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.14846875,"end":222.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.81471875000003,"end":224.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.27846875,"end":227.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.31596875000002,"end":233.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.76659375000003,"end":248.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.29159375,"end":250.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.51909375000002,"end":252.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.49784375000002,"end":262.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.41596875,"end":265.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.54221875,"end":270.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.30096875000004,"end":273.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.42284375,"end":277.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.87784375,"end":278.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.04221875,"end":283.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.81784375,"end":285.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.58534375,"end":290.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.87159375000005,"end":296.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.18284375,"end":303.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.20284375,"end":306.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.80159375,"end":312.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.36596875000004,"end":318.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.54221875,"end":321.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.60096875,"end":322.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.01846875,"end":327.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.97971875,"end":328.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.63346875,"end":331.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.33346875,"end":333.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.34159375,"end":337.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.42971875,"end":343.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.65221875000003,"end":350.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.45284375,"end":357.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.86534375,"end":359.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.36284375,"end":366.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.26471875000004,"end":369.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.28534375000004,"end":372.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.68159375000005,"end":387.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.49784375,"end":395.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.22221875,"end":408.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.52409375,"end":412.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.36721875,"end":420.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.39971875000003,"end":422.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.39534375000005,"end":424.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.23034375000003,"end":426.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.33534375000005,"end":430.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.27596875,"end":433.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.66784375000003,"end":441.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.18971875000005,"end":445.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.98659375000005,"end":446.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.37034375,"end":450.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.91409375,"end":454.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.03159375,"end":458.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.14909375,"end":463.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.36346875000004,"end":467.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.43471875000006,"end":471.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.31159375000004,"end":473.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.35784375000003,"end":483.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.61784375,"end":485.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.09846875000005,"end":487.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.64221875000004,"end":493.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.48971875,"end":496.96596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.64096875,"end":502.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.10846875000004,"end":505.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.46659375,"end":509.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.00596875,"end":517.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.04284375,"end":530.7834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.96471875,"end":534.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.5590937500001,"end":537.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.75284375,"end":542.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.0178437500001,"end":544.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.19034375,"end":547.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.5190937500001,"end":553.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.7334687499999,"end":555.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.3997187500001,"end":565.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.3772187500001,"end":569.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.49034375,"end":574.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.5359687499999,"end":578.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.97846875,"end":579.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.09221875,"end":586.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.0615937499999,"end":591.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.9722187500001,"end":594.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.97596875,"end":597.1865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.1315937500001,"end":611.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.86784375,"end":617.9765937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.418,"end":19.578,"text":"好 謝謝主席以及來參加的學者專家以及現場的各位委員還有網路前面的朋友 大家好我想今天是非常重要的一個歷史時刻"},{"start":21.035,"end":45.22,"text":"我們今天面臨了中華民國第一次史上由立法院所提出來的總統彈劾案其實我們心情是非常沉重的就如同剛才很多的先進所講的按照我們現在的這個憲政體制要讓總統彈劾成功事實上它的難度確實非常高不要說現在立法院"},{"start":45.78,"end":71.789,"text":"没有三分之二的再也洗刺而且还要经过宪法法庭而最近宪法法庭的表现我们几乎可以确定那么其实就已经如同赖总统的靳远靳卫军一样的但是我们必须去写下历史因为当独裁成为事实弹劾就是我们的责任"},{"start":72.961,"end":88.394,"text":"当独裁成为事实弹劾就是我们的责任我想以下我要讲一下我们现在为何要弹劾赖清德总统因为他确实一步一步的走向弹劾之路"},{"start":89.628,"end":108.241,"text":"首先在去年發起的大罷免剛才民進黨的委員都說這是人民發起的啊可是這是由民進黨黨團總召柯建民總召他對外公開的說在整個大罷免過程裡面賴總統每個禮拜都聽取報告"},{"start":112.964,"end":134.329,"text":"他完全掌控請問一下這是一個完全由人民由下而上所發起的大罷免嗎不要自欺欺人人民不是笨蛋所以在去年32比0其實社會已經告訴你這樣子一個由"},{"start":136.693,"end":152.705,"text":"總統所發起的這樣的一個大罷免浪費社會資源造成社會對立大家已經告訴你最新的民意可是請問一下賴總統他有因此而節制嗎"},{"start":154.221,"end":175.781,"text":"所以我必須要說剛才吳思瑤委員也說現在最主要的問題是人出了問題這個人是在立法院的人出了問題他當然指的是在野黨的立委可是人民不是告訴你了嗎32比0大罷免大失敗到底是誰出問題呢"},{"start":177.76,"end":200.111,"text":"為什麼我們賴總統即便經過這樣的一個教訓和洗禮人民這樣的意志這麼清楚的告訴你你仍然不懂節制呢另外行政權獨裁拒絕依法行政我們特別一直在講在過去"},{"start":201.283,"end":227.385,"text":"再怎麼獨裁總統再怎麼專權但是不可能容許在立法院已經完備程序通過的法律我們竟然在行政部門拒絕執行在去年我們通過了對於第一線前線軍人的加薪案"},{"start":228.41,"end":249.981,"text":"我們也通過了退休景銷的所得替代率提高但是在今年度的總預算裡面行政院拒絕編列這是一個經過行政院長附屬以及總統公布實施的法律但是竟然可以不執行剛才吳思耀"},{"start":251.57,"end":276.82,"text":"委員也刻意的再把這一次的彈劾案去故意去牽扯好像這是又是中共的在地協力者這樣的話術這樣的帶風向這樣的抹紅抹黑不就是去年大罷免的重現嗎可是已經告訴你人民不吃這一套"},{"start":277.935,"end":304.978,"text":"另外我們所通過的法律案包含對於現在第一線我們的國軍官兵弟兄的加薪案請問一下我們提振我們軍人的士氣我們是中共的在地協力者嗎我們照顧我們的退休警消人員我們又變成了中共的在地協力者嗎這到底是什麼邏輯"},{"start":306.84,"end":332.859,"text":"欲加之罪何患無辭我必須說今天賴總統的悲哀呀就是在於他一再的用抗中移轉自己執政的無能一再用抗中來說用這樣合理化自己的一個獨裁的行為好我剛才講行政權的獨裁我們看到"},{"start":334.761,"end":343.613,"text":"這兩天一直說你們找錯對象了是行政院長不附屬啊所以呢你們應該去彈劾的是"},{"start":345.61,"end":368.497,"text":"這個行政院長你們應該去提出這個不信任案當然他希望用倒閣的方式來進行所謂的大罷免2.08我們今天看到日本高市早苗首相他決定要解散國會重新選舉高市自己也會下來選啊"},{"start":370.359,"end":394.55,"text":"所以今天賴清德總統他坐在那邊受到這個憲政的保護竟然告訴我們你們去倒閣然後大家再重新選舉我直接說賴清德總統你如果下來跟我們一起選你這個才有正當性啊你在那邊說的是把人民當作三歲的小孩嗎"},{"start":396.337,"end":423.939,"text":"所以我們在這邊為什麼特別提出我們不能一而再再而三的放任行政院拒絕實施立法院所通過的法律這是行政逾越了自己的權力的底線那我們當然很清楚知道這個真正的元兇當然不是卓榮泰而是賴清德總統另外司法權的獨裁"},{"start":425.345,"end":454.283,"text":"枉法裁判除了行政權之外賴總統已經把他的手伸向了司法我們這兩天有很多的論述我們的憲法法庭受到限訴法的限制應該根本無權去開會好他說我們新通過的限訴法是違憲的必須10人以上才可以組成憲法法庭"},{"start":455.103,"end":471.418,"text":"但是我們就退一萬步來說也就是現在所採用的舊的限訴法憲法法庭的組成也要現有總額的三分之二起碼六名大法官"},{"start":472.429,"end":487.078,"text":"所以我们在去年竟然我们违法的宪法法庭去做成了114年宪判制第一号根本是无效判决而且是荒唐的一个判决"},{"start":489.913,"end":508.683,"text":"憲法法庭可以完全的違法作為司法最高機關也可以違法但是這後面又是賴總統後面的撐腰不是嗎也是賴總統的授意不是嗎所以這是一個司法權獨裁"},{"start":511.472,"end":530.57,"text":"這樣子的一個作為其實跟最近被美國逮捕的委內瑞拉總統馬杜洛他就是因為國會他沒有辦法掌握多數所以他把他的親信放在他最高法院然後判決所有國會裡面通過的法律通過的預算全部無效"},{"start":532.037,"end":555.347,"text":"所以今天我們能讓台灣委內瑞拉化嗎可以讓司法權獨裁整個的一樣愉悅踐踏了立法權嗎而且最好笑的是賴總統竟然會說出一個現在叫做在野獨裁真的是全球獨步啊"},{"start":556.468,"end":578.068,"text":"全世界的民主憲政的專家都應該向賴總統請教請問一下我們現在的總統除了立法院之外掌握了行政院考試院監察院還有最重要的是司法權請問一下在野如何獨裁呢"},{"start":579.085,"end":596.847,"text":"所以今天我們一步一步走向這樣子的行政獨裁再也獨裁我們如果可以縱容我們如果沉默我們會眼睜睜看著台灣要走向變成委內瑞拉嗎"},{"start":598.188,"end":613.781,"text":"我們要讓賴清德會朝向韓國的前總統尹錫悅一樣走向一個獨裁之路嗎所以今天我們在歷史上必須留下見證當獨裁成為事實彈劾就是我們的責任謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167113","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167113","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b78dbf1d8505ac728c54526545a23a2d6df79df2e988dc3d7842f56f076dfd42508f01eb9e990b995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"11:08:51 - 11:16:53","影片長度":"00:08:02","會議時間":"2026-01-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場）（事由：第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場））","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-15","start_time":"2026-01-15T11:08:51+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-15T11:16:53+08:00","duration":482,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.18659375,"end":4.6715937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.14409375,"end":7.000343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.658468750000001,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.71721875,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.37096875,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.007843750000003,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.657218750000002,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.88471875,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.247218750000002,"end":22.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.082218750000003,"end":24.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.292843750000003,"end":25.934093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.406593750000003,"end":28.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.07284375,"end":30.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.92909375,"end":32.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.70534375,"end":32.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.04534375,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.60596875,"end":47.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.84221875,"end":48.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.96846875,"end":51.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.727218750000006,"end":56.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.815343750000004,"end":59.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.35909375000001,"end":64.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.40471875,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.13721875,"end":77.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.85846875,"end":83.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.05159375000001,"end":85.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.22846875,"end":91.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.39221875000001,"end":92.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.01221875,"end":96.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.88909375,"end":98.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.42909375,"end":99.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.61471875000001,"end":101.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.55534375,"end":102.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.85471875,"end":102.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.68159375,"end":103.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.28909375,"end":116.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.14534375000001,"end":107.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.04659375000001,"end":118.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.07159375,"end":120.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.45096875,"end":121.53096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.78409375000001,"end":124.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.53471875000001,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.69471875,"end":128.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.42846875,"end":132.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.07346875000002,"end":135.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.45284375,"end":138.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.18221875,"end":145.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.29096875000002,"end":147.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.22721875000002,"end":155.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.14159375,"end":158.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.65159375000002,"end":168.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.49409375000002,"end":169.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.50221875,"end":171.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.57784375,"end":175.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.95284375,"end":177.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.58534375000002,"end":185.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.82471875000002,"end":190.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.98846875,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.24971875,"end":197.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.10971875,"end":200.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.09659375,"end":202.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.53096875,"end":206.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.74971875,"end":208.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.26409375,"end":211.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.89659375000002,"end":213.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.54596875000001,"end":230.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.70784375000002,"end":233.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.24346875,"end":244.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.39346875,"end":248.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.59534375,"end":257.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.31971875,"end":264.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.90096875,"end":275.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.81909375000004,"end":279.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.13909375000003,"end":281.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.45096875,"end":290.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.93909375000004,"end":293.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.48721875,"end":304.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.26596875,"end":305.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.73409375,"end":308.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.94471875,"end":310.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.59409375,"end":312.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.45034375,"end":317.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.96846875,"end":319.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.58846875,"end":322.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.11971875,"end":324.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.38096875,"end":334.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.77596875,"end":339.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.47159375,"end":364.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.22284375000004,"end":367.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.41221875,"end":375.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.70221875000004,"end":387.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.22346875000005,"end":403.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.64721875000004,"end":405.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.99284375,"end":407.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.68034375,"end":414.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.05471875,"end":417.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.51846875,"end":417.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.04159375,"end":420.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.92721875,"end":430.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.29284375000003,"end":433.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.36409375000005,"end":442.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.89846875,"end":443.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.91096875000005,"end":453.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.27221875000004,"end":456.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.85409375,"end":459.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.70596875,"end":462.82784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.38471875000005,"end":467.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.89034375000006,"end":468.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.27409375,"end":479.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.98534375,"end":481.96409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.269,"end":14.236,"text":"請王逸川委員發言好 謝謝主席 還有線上的好朋友今天聽整個會議對面的學者專家講的這個內容我最欽佩的就是張其祿教授他這樣開宗明義的說今天這是一個制度的討論一個制度的討論因為這制度上的某種的設計"},{"start":29.141,"end":32.424,"text":"今天要辦這個公聽會後面還要討論什麼那個我想我們就彼此尊重好不好來繼續 主席那個什麼意思來 請繼續發言沒關係我用什麼話講是我的管理啦"},{"start":56.934,"end":64.019,"text":"你如果聽不到 聽不到去找翻譯啦 莫名其妙我講我的話你就是不懂什麼意思啊對面啦 這學者專家今天每一個人講的話在書上都會記錄啦啊 張祺祿教授講這套討論 這我非常贊成 非常贊成啊 張祺祿教授講了後面幾個教授講的話 我也非常認同啦"},{"start":84.233,"end":90.421,"text":"當然也有人嘲諷啦嘲諷說那些什麼大碗粥那些什麼他褻瀣 我拿你的飯盤啦那又叫你褻瀣啦說一個沒辦法查證的東西還要你嘲諷"},{"start":98.012,"end":108.197,"text":"所以請不要立法委員不要亂講話那個都有國民大會的記錄等一下我們會有回應時間好不好學者專家這邊我們待會有30分鐘的回應時間現在我們就請委員繼續發言你跟我說我也沒什麼意見來 王委員請繼續發言怎麼會這樣啊請學者專家才不會亂來我們繼續發言 來"},{"start":126.735,"end":134.936,"text":"今天這是一個制度的討論 現在如果是行政院對立法院通過的法律跟自愛人行申請這個復議 說什麼復議沒過就沒了啊復議沒過 接受是說你不可以復議 你當然也可以去申請釋憲啊你當然現在要規定 行政院一定有一個附屬的權利啊不然你就把附屬的權利給掉啊"},{"start":156.186,"end":167.856,"text":"啊不就來修憲啊 把他骨頭劈掉啊行政院長不復甦 現場裡面就說他要復甦 須復甦啊須復甦就是可以復甦 也可以不要復甦啊啊不就他骨頭劈掉啊連這個也要廢啊這廢好 這廢可以 這就是制度的討論不是個人的討論我告訴你啊 現在這樣你如果不開心啊不開心啊你就把這個行政議長給他上彈劾啊"},{"start":185.848,"end":200.1,"text":"我不知道你們不要把行政議長刪除 因為彈劾的寬利是乾淨而已啊你們就比不上啊你說我沒有把這個行政議長 我沒有來把這個不信任我們不信任我們一定會過啊 你們也不要啊你不信任我們之後就全部定選啊 你們也不要啊這道理大家都說很久了 後來你們就想了一招說要來彈劾總統"},{"start":214.965,"end":225.608,"text":"還要來彈劾總統 要彈劾總統也沒問題 這是立法院的管理連署裡面 理由有在你寫 彈劾總統裡面還有一個理由說因為台積電要去美國 這條可以彈劾總統這條可以彈劾總統 理由有在你寫 反正倒霉就是來投票來標判"},{"start":238.513,"end":257.56,"text":"要投票 要表決 也很簡單啊 公共的就開始來投票不是 齁 你們很厲害 世界創五個月還要下降 還要辦20多張 用國家的主權在拚你們的選舉我怎麼聽得到 怎麼看得到你們20多個官司 那就是你們的好選人還要去辦的時候 就要去做幾套的"},{"start":265.014,"end":271.195,"text":"用國家的資源在拼你們的選舉要拖到五月還要投票還要投票就這兩天半班的就來投票不需要這樣拖簡單講你們就是要亂了你們就是要亂了你們現在幾天也都說了國民黨的台獨也這樣說了這就不會過你們也知道不會過可是要繞記錄不會過還要繞記錄不會過"},{"start":295.093,"end":303.674,"text":"規定很重要 為什麼因為你後來擺在世界兩港說要叫總統來 要來把這個補救要來把這個吞吐 要來把他拍開 要把他撈開就這樣而已 你們有其他目的嗎 沒有啊你們就是要這樣而已 台灣人敢看嗎你們就這樣 大家說幾句 說到嘴巴全破目的就是要給辣情敵 拍開 要給總統拍開"},{"start":325.441,"end":331.084,"text":"正常的現化的程序不要走不信任我們這個處理行政議長你也不要你也看 那有千千萬萬個走龍泰制度的世界 如果制度的世界你覺得不高興制度的世界你覺得不高興就來修憲 如果修修多條就整期不要修憲看要衝一波新的也可以對不對 你這樣一直拖一直拖讓你們在這裡講這些話"},{"start":355.768,"end":358.411,"text":"我看到就想說你們那些全國行為就很臭味,用國家的錢去煉煉煤,煉這個熱情滴,這樣要說這要怕人家再彈劾,我是不知道說,臨江這個特政地的、特法律的教科書裡面,要怎麼記錄這條"},{"start":376.426,"end":396.82,"text":"記住這條彈劾發起彈劾的政黨說 我也知道不會過發起一個知道不會過的彈劾這叫做教科書罵什麼這教科書罵對面也很多法律的專家啦 政治的專家啦人家你敢說什麼什麼說 中華民國在思想 台灣在思想在野黨發動一個不會通過的彈劾"},{"start":406.181,"end":413.767,"text":"這是要怎麼解釋 解釋法先聽說我們就是開心的 怎樣我們就是要衝下去 怎樣難道是這樣來解釋嗎所以今天這個講聽會我聽起來高雄話說得真有道理阿偉愛抄端 阿偉意識形態太狂還有人怕不對非議性 又怕不對非議性"},{"start":435.287,"end":442.291,"text":"第一天有到位 叫我們今天的主題無關的阿媽大講十分鐘 你是去吃了黃國昌的翅膀黃國昌在這順序內就沒有在教主題今天在討論的是彈劾賴清德的公聽話講一講就叫今天的題目都無關的阿媽大這樣講 不知道對一個政黨推薦的所以 最後 簡單結論今天這個公聽會辦了 我是建議這樣"},{"start":463.607,"end":467.332,"text":"要投票要標高要彈劾賴清德來金融用的啊反正就不會過你們要拖為了你們個人政黨的選舉還要全國行為用國家的錢辦這個選舉實在是沒意思啦 以上好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167110","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167110","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b78dbf1d8505ac7205d677d0893b88106df79df2e988dc3d19ac1d408aac4431ccafdc092bcebbf35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:36:20 - 10:46:38","影片長度":"00:10:18","會議時間":"2026-01-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場）（事由：第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場））","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-15","start_time":"2026-01-15T10:36:20+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-15T10:46:38+08:00","duration":618,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.21596875,"end":10.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.662218750000001,"end":26.929718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.300968750000003,"end":41.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.235343750000006,"end":49.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.031593750000006,"end":51.854093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.32659375,"end":57.726593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.13159375,"end":64.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.40909375,"end":75.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.42409375000001,"end":81.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.70596875000001,"end":83.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.32159375,"end":100.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.01096875,"end":104.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.16659375,"end":106.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.96784375,"end":108.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.14471875000001,"end":109.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.47784375,"end":114.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.52784375,"end":123.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.09596875000001,"end":128.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.32721875000001,"end":133.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.37721875,"end":143.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.27846875,"end":160.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.72721875000002,"end":162.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.19534375,"end":182.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.75346875000002,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.47471875000002,"end":195.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.73034375,"end":197.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.18159375000002,"end":204.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.01159375,"end":207.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.72846875000002,"end":221.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.79784375000003,"end":238.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.01471875000001,"end":240.92159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.20846875,"end":253.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.01659375000003,"end":257.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.62784375,"end":263.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.66909375,"end":264.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.25534375,"end":266.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.34784375000004,"end":271.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.95471875000004,"end":277.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.43034375,"end":280.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.42159375,"end":288.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.67784375,"end":290.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.00659375000004,"end":296.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.47409375,"end":297.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.49909375000004,"end":307.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.88159375000004,"end":309.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.45096875,"end":318.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.64346875,"end":321.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.02284375,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.50346875,"end":327.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.90784375000004,"end":329.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.39284375,"end":338.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.83034375,"end":341.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.68221875,"end":346.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.73596875000004,"end":352.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.90409375,"end":362.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.02909375,"end":367.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.95659375,"end":376.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.39409375,"end":377.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.65971875,"end":378.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.85784375000003,"end":380.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.05159375000005,"end":383.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.71784375000004,"end":386.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.28284375000004,"end":387.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.66221875,"end":400.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.62221875,"end":412.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.27034375000005,"end":423.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.71159375,"end":426.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.25534375,"end":434.98409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.01346875,"end":438.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.13971875000004,"end":454.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.49159375000005,"end":470.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.11346875000004,"end":477.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.72846875000005,"end":491.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.24534375,"end":492.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.33346875,"end":496.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.86471875,"end":516.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.0303437499999,"end":526.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.30721875,"end":536.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.74034375,"end":547.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.99596875,"end":619.1072187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":26.531,"text":"各位委員 各位媒體朋友各位專家學者 大家好我想今天我們是在寫歷史為什麼這麼說在立法院我們是第一次針對彈劾總統這樣的一個案子來召開公聽會我相信都沒有人參加過大家都是第一次為什麼會有這樣子歷史上的第一次"},{"start":27.412,"end":51.574,"text":"立法院必須提出彈劾總統這樣的一個彈劾案因為賴清德總統是無前例的不公布由立法院通過的法律案這個是中華民國我們民選總統以來從來沒有一個總統做到這件事情"},{"start":52.415,"end":75.133,"text":"而賴清德公然違反了憲法的義務跟責任他竟然可以用不公布立法院三讀通過的法律這就是明顯的違憲所以這樣的一個史無前例讓我們必須召開公聽會今天有這樣的一個彈劾案"},{"start":76.454,"end":92.389,"text":"那這樣的一個史無前例我覺得賴清德總統沒有擔當敢做而不敢當剛剛有包括學者或者是委員說為什麼對象不是針對卓榮泰要針對賴清德我讓大家來複習一下為什麼今天彈劾的對象是賴清德總統"},{"start":101.077,"end":123.145,"text":"在立法院通过的财划法这个我让大家还原一下那个顺序在立法院通过的财政收支划分法这个行政院他有提出复议他是在114年12月5号立法院投票表决"},{"start":124.145,"end":142.314,"text":"就是維持原案所以他的復議案並沒有通過按照憲法徵修條文第三條明定復議時如今全體立法委員二分之一以上決議維持原案行政院院長應即接受該決議"},{"start":144.395,"end":160.025,"text":"而總統更需要依中華民國憲法第72條規定立法院法律案通過後移送總統及行政院總統英語收到後10日內公佈"},{"start":162.089,"end":178.424,"text":"這些憲法明文規定的文字如果按照憲法來12月5號立法院已經否決了行政院的復議案總統按照規定應該要在114年12月15號公佈實施結果"},{"start":184.517,"end":206.098,"text":"媒體都有報導12月12號總統主動找了民進黨的立委進行了一場便當會他選擇在應該12月15號公佈之前匆匆忙忙就召開了一場便當會然後這一場便當會"},{"start":207.799,"end":221.104,"text":"召開完之後他就對外宣布就是採取不附屬或附屬之後不執行這不是公然下指導棋什麼才是"},{"start":222.844,"end":237.414,"text":"我們看到了總統公然的去找了民進黨的立委來召開這場會議定調了不附屬結果從昨天的專家學者或是民進黨的委員都說你們應該要找卓榮泰"},{"start":239.062,"end":261.814,"text":"冤有頭債有主啊敢做不敢當賴清德總統公然找了民進黨的委員召開了這場會議而且強硬劃壓如果大家有印象的話當時柯建民總召我們佩服他他還是在專業方面是比較深厚的比較有法學素養的他認為萬萬不可但是"},{"start":265.287,"end":277.432,"text":"很難獨排眾議所以這個卓榮泰就照單全收請問今天我們提出這樣的彈劾案對象是總統真的沒有道理嗎"},{"start":279.468,"end":297.256,"text":"真的沒有道理嗎所以我希望民進黨的委員不用再繼續護航賴總統既然敢做就敢當完完全全都是他下令的嘛所以今天民進黨有很多的委員說哎呀你們就是提倒閣啊倒閣有用嗎"},{"start":298.55,"end":327.41,"text":"今天走了一個卓榮泰不會來一個鄭麗君嗎或來一個潘孟安嗎那他們要不要聽命賴清德總統的命令當然要啊在我們現在的憲政架構底下我們的行政院院長充其量就是總統的執行長而已我們不是真正的內閣制我們現在的卓榮泰院長他並沒有來自民意的基礎跟權力"},{"start":328.936,"end":351.486,"text":"那請問一個行政院院長可以針對立法院最高的民意機構我們所通過的法令他可以不附屬嗎他可以不附屬來架空立法院嗎請問他的權力基礎來自於哪裡不是內閣制的首長哪來那麼大的一個權力"},{"start":352.99,"end":380.139,"text":"所以你不覺得這件事情非常的荒謬嗎如果一個行政院院長可以任意的用不附屬來架控立法院通過的法令那請問陳水扁時期也是嘲笑也大他當時所任命的行政院院長我相信他對於立法院所做的決議他可能也不見得百分之百的認同或者是接受但是他們都守住了"},{"start":381.469,"end":400.515,"text":"憲法跟法律的底線我們是五權分立的國家一個行政院院長目前我們的憲法賦予他的就是你不同意的時候你就提起復议但是復议失敗之後憲法明文規定你就是必須要遵守"},{"start":401.673,"end":426.512,"text":"这个才是我们民主法治应该维持的一个最好的框架跟架构吧所以真的是制度完全出了问题吗我今天在公听会我要说恐怕是人出了问题如果过去陈水扁总统在嘲笑野大的时候我们也没有看到他发动大罢免针对在野党所有的区域委员一律罢免"},{"start":427.333,"end":452.021,"text":"我們也沒有看到陳水扁總統他對於立法院通過的法令竟然可以進行不公佈那這是人的問題還是是制度的問題我必須說賴清德總統他在法治的觀念上面出了非常大的一個問題過去他擔任市長的時候就可以因為不認同這個議會的議長"},{"start":454.562,"end":470.118,"text":"他就不履行一个市长到议会去接受备询接受议会监督这样的一个做法而遭到了监察院的弹劾那他今天作为国家的元首故态复明又来了一遍"},{"start":471.119,"end":492.187,"text":"他今天竟然可以違反憲法針對立法院通過的法律案他要求卓榮泰不附屬然後還裝模作樣變成說不是我不公佈是因為他不附屬所以我才不能公佈這個也未免太惺惺作態了要敢做敢當"},{"start":494.383,"end":515.438,"text":"最後我要提出來的是我們不允許中華民國邁向民主獨裁我們不允許我們好不容易創建的民主法治的體制竟然可以在賴清德擔任總統的時候他可以用個人的意志就要來做這個扭曲跟破壞"},{"start":517.062,"end":534.273,"text":"美國的開國元勳、美國憲法之父James Madison,他在聯邦黨的人文集第47篇,他有特別指出,當立法權、行政權和司法權集中於一人之手,我們都可以恰當地稱為這是保證。"},{"start":536.855,"end":565.409,"text":"而目前我們看到的賴清德總統他試圖要架空立法院的立法權他用司法去迫害政敵他現在在這一個大法官的部分不提名不履行他的總統的職責而且用五個大法官就要來做釋憲這個都是在在的違反了民主迫害了我們的法治"},{"start":566.81,"end":583.332,"text":"最後我要講的是在憲政之上沒有人可以領教在民主之前也沒有旁觀者所以今天我們都在寫歷史對一個違法濫權的總統我們一定要留下記錄"},{"start":584.614,"end":605.666,"text":"而很多人都說這一個彈劾案根本不會通過重點是在這個過程我們要讓全國的民眾了解而我也套用柯總召的一句話他常常說起義來歸我想民進黨裡面的委員如果想要繼續守護我們的憲法"},{"start":606.306,"end":617.269,"text":"最終我們在投票的時候我們也希望呼應有志之士希望守護中華民國憲政與法治的民進黨委員可以起義來歸以上 謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}