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祕密投票與結果可受信賴並避免境外敵對勢力不但干預這是很重要的在者不在席投票是否應採漸進式投票或一步到位全面實施何種層級投票適合採行不在席投票都必須考慮清楚"},{"start":1917.881,"end":1944.371,"text":"另外考量選務可行性不在即投票info有合理準備期等等的議題我們特別舉辦公聽會聽取各位專家學者的意見那我們會相時記錄各位的高見並列入立法院公報記錄中作為修法討論時的參考所以我們首先先介紹專家學者出席委員及機關代表那我們的"},{"start":1947.502,"end":1974.27,"text":"我們先介紹我們的所有的專家學者這個是來的先後順序我們依照來的先後順序第一位是楊志傑教授歡迎 謝謝第二個是蔣桂美教授第三個是羅承宗教授"},{"start":1977.659,"end":2001.951,"text":"第四位是黃仁俊教授再來是黃承翰研究員再來是吳景清教授兼主任再來是廖藝明教授我們在場委員有鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":2005.956,"end":2030.731,"text":"蔓玉珍委員我們列席的政府官員有我們中選會選務處王處長內政部民政司政司長其他的我們就不再一一介紹了謝謝"},{"start":2033.444,"end":2055.858,"text":"好 那我們今天公聽會的程序如下我們先請部會簡短報告後再請專家學者發言依出席簽到順序委員者每位發言時間為8分鐘本院委員要發言的請自主席台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為5分鐘"},{"start":2057.819,"end":2066.107,"text":"最後再由與會的機關代表回應說明發言台前 政協方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言時間結束則按鈴兩聲"},{"start":2074.134,"end":2094.758,"text":"那我們現在請部會報告我先徵求一下我們今天我們地方選委會因為是辦選舉的我們有台北市選委會高雄市選委會新竹市選委會的總幹事都有出席我想請問一下三位是要都各自報告還是推派一位"},{"start":2103.194,"end":2109.325,"text":"你替他回答我想說他們都沒有講話好來那我們先請王處長報告"},{"start":2122.649,"end":2140.593,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好那今天貴委員會召開不在籍投票立法公聽會本會應邀列席報告深感榮幸那本會的意見詳如書面報告那僅簡要說明如下那第一個討論的提綱實施不在籍投票如何避免與選務混亂確保選舉公平"},{"start":2143.214,"end":2172.427,"text":"秘密投票與結果可受信賴並避免境外敵對勢力不當的干預那本會的意見是不在籍投票的實施需於選務層面具有可行性不影響選舉罷免及公民投票的公正性選民對投票結果公正性之信賴等情形下方可採行據而全面實施公職人員選舉不在籍投票對於現行選制的安定性社會信任選民投票習慣選務作業可行性及選務量能"},{"start":2173.107,"end":2196.1,"text":"負載等衝擊過大需審慎的考量那討論的提綱二是其他國家實施不在籍投票的方式那有移轉投票特色投票所投票提前投票代理投票通訊投票境外投票電子投票等是否適合我國採用那本會的意見是各民主國家的實施經驗那不在籍投票是依據各該國家國情"},{"start":2196.62,"end":2219.489,"text":"那大致可分為剛剛以上所述的各種投票的方式那有關我國不在籍投票的方式那因為移轉投票叫其他的不在籍投票方式叫為國人所接受那但是以我國現行由夾式縣市選舉委員會在投票日前印製選舉票那在投票日採行投開票合一的開票方式在非單一選舉區的選舉採行移轉投票"},{"start":2222.21,"end":2241.895,"text":"各直轄市縣市選舉委員會需處理來自其他不同選舉區移轉投票的選舉票將大幅增加投開票實務作業的難度那至於其他種類的不再投票的方式對我國不宜採行的理由那請參閱本會書面資料第二頁的說明三跟四那不再贅述"},{"start":2242.495,"end":2257.825,"text":"那討論提綱三是不在即投票應否採行漸進方法實施進一步到位全面實施何種層級的公民投票案選舉或罷免適合採行不在即投票那本會的意見是全面實施不在即投票具有極大的風險"},{"start":2258.726,"end":2274.143,"text":"那因為總統副總統選舉的立法委員選舉是合併舉行投票那立法委員選舉因為選舉區數目眾多除了73個單一選舉區之外上有平地原住民 山地原住民兩個原住民選區以及全國部分居集僑居國外國民選舉的選舉票計有76種選舉票"},{"start":2277.932,"end":2297.769,"text":"那至於地方九合一選舉那選舉種類及選舉數目的繁多以115年選舉票預估會有8896種那實施移轉投票的選務極為複雜難度與不可控的風險都更高那有關罷免跟地方公職人員的罷免案"},{"start":2298.249,"end":2313.958,"text":"那因為是在個別的選舉區或在個別指壓式縣市舉行那如果實施不在籍投票那上去在其他的指壓式縣市設計投票所那形容全國舉行罷免的投票那執行將有困難而且如果投票所的不在籍投票人數較少時在"},{"start":2316.322,"end":2327.339,"text":"維護投票秘密上會有問題那至於實施不在投票所涉及的選務實施的實務作業大概會有不在投票申請的作業涉及選舉人名冊跨縣市的異動"},{"start":2328.936,"end":2355.442,"text":"那第二個是投開票所的設置在大都會區必須增設投票所在時間的充裕跟場地上都會有一些挑戰第三點是投開票的作業立法委員選舉有76種選舉票地方公主人選舉有近9000種選舉票那在同一個投票所內辦理大量不同的選舉票投票那可能會因為選舉票的外觀近似發票作業可能發生錯誤那開票如何進行以及投開票報告表如何"},{"start":2356.022,"end":2373.449,"text":"填照等都是會有問題的那第四點是選務工作人員的招募會非常的困難第五點是投票通知單集選舉公報的分送必須配合來調整那會耗費大量的人力時間及經費第六點是選舉票的印製分發運送交換跟保管那都會有問題"},{"start":2375.319,"end":2386.631,"text":"那有關於這個是否應該循序漸進那本會的意見是建議循序漸進先推動公投不在籍投票再逐步推動選舉的不在籍投票那在討論提綱四"},{"start":2388.816,"end":2414.371,"text":"誰可以實施不在籍投票應否限制實施申請不在籍投票者的身份那本會的建議是申請資格不宜設定條件那討論提綱五是考量選務可行性不在籍投票應否有合理的準備期若立法明定公佈日期施行是否可行那本會的意見是為其不在籍投票制度運行順暢不在籍投票的推動應有合理的準備期並辦理各項籌備作業"},{"start":2415.712,"end":2430.369,"text":"那這些籌備作業包括了訂定相關選務補充規定及配套措施那第二個是要建置相關的電子申請系統那第三個是要訂定相關的宣導計畫逼選民了解這個新的制度"},{"start":2430.929,"end":2455.641,"text":"那考量不再以投票的相關法律經完成立法程序後仍有相關配套作業必須規劃執行那並考量選務作業的複雜性應該預留合理的準備期那如果是在立法明定公佈日來施行等準備的期間不足在實務運作上有導致選務作業混亂之餘那討論提綱六是為便利投票從以便利投票角度出發"},{"start":2457.041,"end":2473.387,"text":"應否優先改善在籍者投票的問題那如何改善目前在籍者無法投票或投票不便的問題那中選會的意見是現行在籍者投票的規劃已經完善那例如說我們現在是落實一村里至少一個投票所的設置原則來確保"},{"start":2474.447,"end":2503.696,"text":"民眾能夠就近行使投票權那又介於我國的交通網路便捷選舉投票日依法為應放假之日配合高密度的投票所設置以便利民眾放假返鄉投票已經大幅降低民眾往返投票的時間成本那還有考量到選務安定性的前提下以維持現行戶籍地投票制度鼓勵民眾返鄉行使投票權利那第二點是在籍者投票仍有其優先性以及必要性"},{"start":2504.198,"end":2522.005,"text":"因為我國現行採行的是所謂的投開票合一的制度那它具有下列的優點第一個是確保投票祕密第二個是有效維護選舉程序的公正第三個是高度的社會信賴感那如果採行不再投票如何維護現有制度的優點又不影響現行選務實務的作業仍需審慎考量"},{"start":2525.046,"end":2544.162,"text":"那第七提綱七是對於其他不在投票的立法建議那本會仍然是建議先推動不在即公投的不在投票再推動選舉的不在投票那以上說明敬請各位委員及選者專家指教謝謝好謝謝那我們繼續請台北市選委會蔡總幹事"},{"start":2551.147,"end":2567.527,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進我這邊報告一下其實剛剛我們處長已經針對我們一些實務上都說了一個大綱那我們先就實務進行可能要請各位先進在提高視野上在不同的視野上幫我們地方能夠想想能夠解決一下怎麼樣我們現在面臨的困難"},{"start":2568.608,"end":2591.403,"text":"因為講真的其實在地方的話大概就會遇到大致就分為兩個問題一個是地點一個是人的問題那其實不用到移轉投票其實他們現在像我們找投開票所還有選策的非常吃重的工作都在地方區公所跟戶政事務所那大家可能很難想像他們大概從選前的這一年差不多從1月開始就已經在洽介地方的各個的投開票所"},{"start":2592.003,"end":2617.721,"text":"那因為我們現在投開票所提供其實在法令上並沒有特別鼓勵的誘因也沒有所謂的強制性所以講真的他們都必須一間一間去拜託然後拜託宮廟拜託學校拜託地方的私宅那私宅有時候尤其在都會區講真的一旦都市更新或是他們有涉及隱私大家也知道是說在都會區對於隱私是比較在乎他也不太願意去呈現他的想法的時候"},{"start":2618.206,"end":2627.147,"text":"那私宅更難以外借好那再來就是說所以一旦有移轉投票狀況我們初估還只是預估因為我們不知道實際上會怎麼產生"},{"start":2628.581,"end":2656.039,"text":"那可能光投開票所我們就得增加兩到三倍那大家可以想像在台北市要找到兩到三倍是有多麼困難然後第二個就是人力的問題那自然因為你一旦開放移轉團其實現行在他們投開票所工作人員除了三分之二都是一般的民眾那他其實雖然選前有訓練但是其實他對一些行政事務總是沒有那麼的熟人那很多也都是管理員他們平常有"},{"start":2657.06,"end":2682.476,"text":"往來啊交替熟悉的人拜託他們來的那是一旦投開票所增加勢必工人要增加那他們是不是意願有這麼高有這麼多人有意願來參加的投開票所的工作因為就往例的經驗就地方人士經驗其實他們也會找人也非常的困難好那如果說一旦擴張到移轉投票的時候我們也擔心因為可以想像那個投開票所的票種非常多"},{"start":2683.297,"end":2704.897,"text":"選策也非常多那一般民用在光領票的狀況下我們一般的工作人可能就會面臨很混亂無法辨識或者是該怎麼樣讓這個動線加快那領票也慢投票可能也會慢那當然到開票的時候那更是可以想像中必須要很小心謹慎因為我們希望說開票也能夠正確嘛尤其在里長票的話常常"},{"start":2706.358,"end":2735.076,"text":"票數差距非常少就會影響決定輸贏所以我們是說希望說如果說有在這樣考量要不在就可能針對我們這些人跟地還有一些行政程序能夠予以協助還有像我們一般行政的話當然行政有些細節我這邊不贅述可是光我們票所我們票比如說選票上如何印製或是印製完如何交換到他移轉投票的地點因為這個都是非常重要的如何可能都"},{"start":2735.896,"end":2758.209,"text":"必須跨區支援或者是有警務必須能夠從南部到北部怎麼樣送票那如何能夠讓票那個順利到每個投開票所這很多很多細節都必須考量那還有當然還有一些招標問題那我這邊就不贅述那所以大概就是人地還有行政程序真的請各位學友幫我們地方的第一線的工作人員能多多考量以上報告謝謝好謝謝那我們繼續請高雄市選委會李錫斌副總幹事報告"},{"start":2778.682,"end":2802.435,"text":"對不起 主席還有大院委員以及各位專家寫者與會的來賓大家午安那就在我們地方選委會我們其實是以我們選舉實務上的來各位做一些提出來一些報告因為現在尤其地方選舉很多選委會它的基層的比如說村里長跟代表甚至就包括鄉鎮市或者原住民區的區長"},{"start":2804.498,"end":2828.992,"text":"我們所有的作業大概都在公所來處理比如說我們的里長選票那我們全國包括代表總共剛剛我們的處長也提過有八千多種那這八千多種大概由地方的公所或者選務作業中心來印製那這印製過程完了之後要把這八千多種在全國實施交換這想一想是多大的一個工程"},{"start":2829.392,"end":2855.71,"text":"尤其要交換到不同的指定投票所那這些投票所每一張每個投票可能只有一張或者兩張那這交換過程當中萬一發生的狀況到達最後那產生一些選務上不必要的困擾的話以後選民到達之後可能會發生一些狀況那另外有關於洩漏投票秘密的那一般我們最近大概都有談到原住民的投票秘密那如果我們以後實施"},{"start":2856.417,"end":2880.152,"text":"所謂的全國的不在籍的一個投票那可能某一個投票所的某一種類的選票他可能只有一張那這一張一開出來那很明顯的投票明明就無法來保障那另外投開票所多久以前要設置我們剛剛台北市大概也講尤其在投開票所設置的時候跟選舉人數是有相當的關係以目前我們中選的規劃每個投票所大概會在1200到1500個選舉人左右"},{"start":2883.902,"end":2909.548,"text":"那如果我們到時候在受理的時候我們已經是不是要先設定好投票所如果先設定好投票所到時候這個投票所裡面來受理來申請不再去投票的人很多那你勢必又要再分成兩個投票所這個閒後的時間差到底要多久以前要先決定投票所或者先來決定選舉人數這也是一個問題那另外選舉人策要如何來編造"},{"start":2910.529,"end":2928.404,"text":"因為有關於選舉人名冊的編造 核對還有遣發法規定整個可能都要通盤的要整個要來做的修正我們目前的規定是投票日前20天是我們選舉的一個基準日 造冊基準日"},{"start":2928.902,"end":2954.751,"text":"那現在如果按照我們剛剛實施不再去投票那整個投票基準日前的造冊時間到底要往前拉多久這個也是一個問題另外到時候在申請的時候比如說以我們歷年的總統大選我們有個叫做反國行使總統副總統選舉權的一個投票那個受理期間以前幾列來講大概都有八十幾天"},{"start":2955.683,"end":2982.408,"text":"那如果這八十幾天幾乎在像第113年的總統選舉我們是大概從9月一直登記到11月那如果以後不再去投票那我們給開放給民眾來申請不再去投票到底要日數要多久如果也相當那我們的選舉公告包括整個往前要提高提前多久這個也是一個考慮包括獲選人登記抽籤選舉票的印製等等那再者"},{"start":2983.891,"end":3011.309,"text":"目前其實我們有一個不在意投票只有選不好規定的投靠票所工作人員的工作地投票不過那個是以同一縣市而且他要同一選舉區為限所以當然同一個選舉區為限他的選票就是一樣的所以我們只有實施這一個就算實施這一個工作人員的工作地投票我們在地方上來講整個的公所的受理那只有投票所工作人員"},{"start":3012.418,"end":3017.765,"text":"工作的受理完了之後再把名冊再交給我們的戶政事務所"},{"start":3018.755,"end":3043.845,"text":"以高雄市來講我們的副鎮事務所會有早一天全部來統一交換因為你如果有時間差搞不好這個人的投票錢就會不見了這個就姿勢體大所以在那裡投票所工作人員的這個工作力投票就已經相當的困難那另外呢 省府整個騎乘拉長所以我們整個的省府作業中心到底多久以前要成立"},{"start":3044.745,"end":3061.765,"text":"這個也是一個問題以我們目前來講大概就是前三到三個月左右會成立期選務作業中心那如果這樣子一受理那整個選務期限可能會拉很長再來剛剛也有先進提過就是投票所工作人員的原本的林派的願望就不足"},{"start":3062.891,"end":3087.906,"text":"原本參加的人員 我們的參加公教人員的參加意願又越來越低尤其在地方選舉的時候 幾乎我們都找不太到人就算我們的 我們的津貼在增加說實在話 有時候我們時常在講說我們在怎麼增加 你也比不上監考老師監考老師一次不管大考國考 可能兩到三天每天兩三千塊 加起來就五六千"},{"start":3088.51,"end":3113.43,"text":"可是你在辦選舉的時候從早上六點多你就必須要起床忙到晚可能要晚上將近十點十二點尤其比較大的投票所時間會拉很長這個拉很長根本他們願不足而且呢責任又相當的重大萬一有問題以後要跑上法院還有呢地方選舉我們剛剛有提過大概有八九千種類的"},{"start":3115.016,"end":3142.859,"text":"選舉票 好 那我們一般投開票15我們入口會有一個身份證查驗員這個時候我們該如何來查驗他的身份證萬一他跑錯票所 到達我們投票處再發現他又不是這個投票所的選舉人那到時候又會出了很多狀況因為我們既然如果有做到全國不在即投票到時候投票通知單可能也來不及分發到每一個人的手上包括選舉公報也是"},{"start":3144.815,"end":3172.364,"text":"另外不同縣市的辦理不再去投票因為剛所說的投票秘密來你執行我曾經大概有這幾天大概有稍微想過如果有一個里他大概只有三四百票或者這個里長這個里他的競爭非常的激烈樹英可能在五十票甚至十票以內的話他是不是可以運用這個不再去投票找他的某一些人到"},{"start":3173.817,"end":3197.888,"text":"別個投票所去申請不再去投票到時候開出來很清楚他是不是投給我所以這個也有可能造成買票可能又會申請我們剛剛所說的大概只是稍微因為時間的關係我們只能夠列為的一個概述所以如果茂然實行說實在將有更多不可意見的問題應該會發生"},{"start":3199.71,"end":3225.045,"text":"所以勢必要我們整個選罷法包括選務的期程整個我們就必須要重新來設定所以我們也建議現階段實在不於貿然的來實施甚至有相當的困難我剛剛講是不是從全國性的一種全國性同一種類的選票我們先來試行看看好 以上報告好 謝謝那我們繼續請我們新竹縣選委會李美玲副總幹事"},{"start":3231.728,"end":3247.036,"text":"主席然後各位委員還有各位先生女士大家好就是有關不在籍投票的部分那就是回歸到我們憲法的用意就是憲法17條人民就是有選舉罷免創制複竭權那我們憲法的129條選舉台灣的選舉是以普通"},{"start":3250.838,"end":3256.641,"text":"然後平等直接還有無記名方式就是我們的秘密投票來做相關的選舉那我們的選舉的130條規定20歲是有選舉權那針對這個不在籍投票的話針對這個困難度的部分我想說我們處長還有兩位先進我們選委會的那個台北跟高雄市的副總統報告"},{"start":3271.869,"end":3290.771,"text":"那針對說我的補充規定我的補充的內容是就是我們法律的部分我們就是公務員必須要依法行政那目前的選罷法就是以下一次的115年的地方公職人選舉的話經費的編列如果是地方型選舉是由縣市政府來編列如果是總統跟"},{"start":3291.792,"end":3319.782,"text":"立法委員的選舉的話是由我們中選會就是中選會來編列事實上我們在1月21號我們的中選會的長官也非常重視下一次選舉所以已經召開了第二次選條會也因應我們的那個公投法第23條我們在這個去年就是有做修正以前就是選舉跟公投分開那這一次選舉跟公投的話要合併也就是公投成立的三道"},{"start":3320.662,"end":3334.951,"text":"三到六個月如果碰到全國性的選舉的時候要合併所以我們現在針對1200個投開選舉人數一個投開票所增加到只要超過1200個必須要設投開票所那我該說我們"},{"start":3336.252,"end":3350.742,"text":"因應法律的規定我們這次的選舉經費是編在縣市那我們新竹縣上一次是462個想說上次罷免那個我們才辦完所以呢不到一年時間所以我們的經費是編列10個投開票所也就是說該我們中選會的長官還有兩位先進所講的"},{"start":3356.286,"end":3373.818,"text":"如果在不在期投票的話無論好針對我們的投開票所的選舉人數只要他現在的目前的法令只要是戶籍才是他的投票所可是現在只要是工作地或者是上班地所他可以都可以申請我們的那個我們相關在這邊投票"},{"start":3374.398,"end":3390.909,"text":"那像新竹縣來講 我們就是竹科就是我們的 竹科就是我們的 我們最大的票倉嘛所以他們勢必就可以湧入很多 在我們新竹投票我們是不怕困難 是怕的是危機 還有混亂以新竹縣107年十大公投案 還有我們的五合一選舉我們開票是到12點多 然後真正報表印出來分送報表五份之後 是到淩晨3點"},{"start":3401.957,"end":3426.096,"text":"那當天我們新竹縣的做法是選舉過後馬上就要整理因為未來向五合一選舉 剛才我們先進高雄縣選委會的副總所講的里長選舉 那個都是差一兩票所以我們會未來因應的 未來的訴訟方式把有效票 法院要檢視的票 還有選舉的名冊都把它整理出來公所送票的方式也會因應法院的送票"},{"start":3426.576,"end":3449.412,"text":"所以我們當天我們選務工作人員我們選委會只有8個工作人員編制那就是編制那我們其實每次選舉新竹縣大概動用6000位投開票所462個其實就是現在講的說我們投開票所的設置依照法律依照經費即使公投案成立的話中選會會編列相關的經費給我們"},{"start":3452.634,"end":3468.989,"text":"可是我們以前我們目前所做的程序表是8月底要公告我們的投開票所的地點表也就是投開票所地點表公布之後我們招募比如說我們要尊重招募人的意願所以就是"},{"start":3469.349,"end":3485.764,"text":"但因為在前年也修法了就是我們的公教之前是二分之一降成三分之一所以在新竹縣來講我們招募真的是我們超級半體超級業務員的業務也就是真的求爺爺告奶奶然後如果這個不再急投票的話"},{"start":3486.545,"end":3501.708,"text":"就是五合一加如果有公投案兩案三案就是開票已經到非常晚了如果這個不再急投票到底要設多少個投開票所如果投開票所在我們的目前公投是確定的話就是8月底以前都是可以成案的"},{"start":3502.168,"end":3515.601,"text":"那如果這個不再急投票又再進來的話我們投開票所到底什麼時候可以確定我們招募是確實很困難在於說我們新竹縣就是科技大縣所以我們的老師很多就是台積電聯發科的太太"},{"start":3517.502,"end":3529.754,"text":"如果這個還有涉及到經費該講說五合一選舉是地方編列又沒有編列公副排代公副排代的意思就是說如果給老師兩天假如果不能讓他請代課終點費老師是要代班的"},{"start":3532.236,"end":3553.421,"text":"是沒有意義的所以老師根本就是不想當選務工作人如果這個不再集投票我們剛才講說半夜3點才開票結束12點多他們又不能補假讓他功夫排代老師擔任的意願真的是非常好就是沒有辦法這樣子所以我講的意思就是說我們如果開票不能當天"},{"start":3554.561,"end":3578.676,"text":"應該上一次107年我當一組組長的時候就開到三點才能回家這個如果說學校借債乾我們前進先輩也講說我們借投開票手非常不容易第二天孩子要上課老師要上班我們拜託我們的用自己的親朋好友我們當起業務員第二天人家也要上課人家也要去上班我們開票不能結束"},{"start":3579.476,"end":3605.322,"text":"這個回歸到台灣的我們台灣最珍貴的就是憲法保障的我們的民主制度那民主制度就是大家有信任基礎我們選務就是民主制度最扎實最基礎的張張建票開票我們台灣就是開票跟投票是合一所以雖然我們也知道說移轉的不再集投票的方法非常多那我們現在黨團還是採取我們的移轉投票"},{"start":3605.862,"end":3614.792,"text":"那一轉投票我真的很擔心我們第二天票開不完我們藉著投開票所怎麼辦就是真的是會整個把整個從我們現在我們那個動員開亂截止到我們現在實施的那個"},{"start":3620.919,"end":3648.166,"text":"台灣自此之後的是不是會破壞我們選務的混亂終於我們在前主委李靖勇主委終於把我們的中選會的招牌就是之前台灣的信任基礎就是說我們是不是做票當初我們台北市的時候投票跟開票同時做同時一起因為4點就是要開票了所以人家那個訴訟我想說也打了非常久所以這個部分不是不贊成而是要考慮非常因素所以還是"},{"start":3648.806,"end":3677.647,"text":"比採取漸進投票該我們處長就是該講的這也涉及到選舉區選舉區如果五合一選舉有八八九六個投開票所我們主委之前也有在我們立法院也有報告如果這樣子貼一個投開票所最好的投開票所就是在學校學校的面積現在可能像高中新竹縣的六家高中可能有20坪以上可是一般傳統現在少子化一個投開票所也大概15坪左右"},{"start":3678.027,"end":3685.532,"text":"如果以15坪我們現在就是說如果他來領票的時候通常是分兩組兩組來領票會以0這樣子才會疏散他的速度如果這樣的話到底我們一個投開票所編是14.5人14.5個人包含三位是監察員是沒有做事的是看我們選務工作人員管理員有沒有確實依法行政那如果11.5個人又扣掉一個警衛10.5個人兩排再發到底我們要多少個"},{"start":3708.147,"end":3719.034,"text":"桌子才可以把票發好然後之後開票之後貼在教室的15點一個15坪真是沒地方貼第二個就是我們的我們的採購案如果說採購案不確定然後不確定的話因為我們會變得說今天我們貼在教室的我們以教室來講我們的那個我們的黑板來講是不夠貼的而且剛剛好如果我們投開票的主任管理員他沒有辦法"},{"start":3738.127,"end":3759.898,"text":"把空白的計票紙都放下來那最快現在最快的計票房子是都把它印好所以可以直接馬上機唱票跟我們的計票馬上機那突然就說如果不再去投票比如說我們之前是個屏東的工程師我們新竹縣當投開票所突然就沒有空白的最後引起一陣混亂了那上一次5合110年5合1選舉我們的開票"},{"start":3763.36,"end":3787.322,"text":"是幾乎是全國第二為什麼因為課長竹北市公所的課長每次換選舉就是換一個課長他們壓力太大了招募招募不到開票的時候選務工作人員他的量像竹北這一次是一二選舉區議員又分開來然後又里長的票又在一起就是以里來分一個是以高速公路一個鐵道來分這個都要印選票的時候"},{"start":3788.343,"end":3810.904,"text":"都是很複雜的然後就是我們也擔心剛剛前輩有講的說我們的招募有困難我們的應選票我們的投開票所的物資就是剛才講說給我們的主任管理員的物資到時候我們的招標案如果學校我們的主任管理員點的不夠清楚開票的當天就是混亂的就會引起暴動了然後我們群組線我想說"},{"start":3813.386,"end":3831.568,"text":"各位先進去年應該有知道投票通知單這件事我們是科技大縣雖然說我們的投票通知單就是可以用電子的方式給可是基於平等權每個人都要拿到資本但現在我們所講的如果不再急投票的話那些涉及"},{"start":3832.028,"end":3857.871,"text":"沒有設計在新竹縣可是就是剛才講說台積電聯發科的工程師要在新竹縣投票的時候投票通知單如何以他的工作地還是居所地如何送達給他去年新竹縣我們主委前主委要求就是我們七日前要送達我們有旅行二日前法規規定二日前要送達準時採線送達這個部分都引起暴動了都上了頭版"},{"start":3858.752,"end":3874.14,"text":"所以如果今天他們這些高級知識分子在投票日前兩日沒辦法 因為實施不在地投票沒辦法準時送達他的投票通知單是不是我們要引起全國的投板"},{"start":3875.081,"end":3896.002,"text":"選務工作人員每每竹北市公所每每選舉完就是陣亡一批人大家感覺說我們沒在選舉的時候沒事做其實這時間我們也辦了非常多的補選然後剛才講的說我們的收票方式所以終結很多很多因素在我們回歸到說目前可能實務上還有採購案還有法令上"},{"start":3898.884,"end":3913.468,"text":"法令上該前輩也講的我們必須選舉人名冊必須20日前要變照那這些我們要保障這些戶籍地以外的居所地還有在工作地投票的如何做我們的選舉人名冊"},{"start":3915.89,"end":3932.932,"text":"東東的正確因為現在的我們的發票處的管理員一定是依照選舉人名冊來做那通常二組就是我們的護證科在編造選舉人名冊就是20日前一個晚上沒有睡覺的在編造然後就是我們也會依照這個名冊來發票"},{"start":3934.233,"end":3949.549,"text":"然後就是說我們通常的獎席也是會確定投開票所工作人員都要做獎席我們的獎席也會在確定是20日的時候來辦獎席那這個選舉人名冊如果都不能確定我們獎席如何辦"},{"start":3950.47,"end":3963.26,"text":"就是說我們的講習的部分就是其實每次選舉都要感謝旁邊的朋友還有我們在座的長官的協助因為公所同事也就這麼多而已然後再請各位再仔細考量 謝謝"},{"start":3967.093,"end":3980.8,"text":"好我們謝謝那我們接著我們就請專家學者發言那其他單位的報告請自行參閱並刊登公報我們請第一位楊志傑教授主席各位好我是雲林科技大學楊志傑我今天的報告要比較"},{"start":3996.297,"end":4020.102,"text":"日本南韓跟加拿大制度聚焦在移轉投票提前投票並提出設計建議首先看日本日本的提前在即投票選民不需要事前申請只要在公告日至選前一日直接前往護局地的提前投票所即可例如日本眾議院即將在2月8日改選"},{"start":4022.043,"end":4045.657,"text":"1月7日到前1天2月7日都可以做提前投票那麼移轉投票他會跟提前投票所結合選民最慢只要在選前一日向戶籍地選會提出申請包括線上申請選委會會寄發選票跟信封選民再到指定的投票所投票投票時間跟提前投票時間"},{"start":4046.704,"end":4058.361,"text":"一樣但是因為要寄送所以要提前準備目前日本網站上公告從1月19號開始就已經可以提前申請約約為選前20日"},{"start":4062.284,"end":4078.383,"text":"接下來看南韓南韓將提前投票與移轉投票結合投票日通常在週三提前投票與移轉投票在前一個週五週六選民可以直接到各地提前投票所利用提前"},{"start":4079.205,"end":4103.052,"text":"進行提前投票和移轉投票不需要事前申請各地提前投票所會利用電腦與網路連線全國整合選舉人名冊當場印製特製選票投完票後在本地提前投票的選票留在該地而移轉投票的選票則統一寄回給互集地選委會再來看加拿大"},{"start":4106.877,"end":4134.926,"text":"加拿大的提前投票跟移轉投票也都不需要事前申請一些細節呢 各位請參閱簡報我用這個表來比較三個國家制度的差異首先 南韓 加拿大都不需要事前申請移轉投票因為都用電腦網路即時連線全國選舉人名冊只有日本要事前申請"},{"start":4136.513,"end":4159.585,"text":"然後日本原戶籍地選委會印製選票信封寄給選民在選票意志上日本就會由原戶籍地印製南韓是現場直接印製那加拿大的移轉投票呢限於原選區但他選區很大所以他的選票是一樣的沒有特別印製的問題"},{"start":4162.677,"end":4186.497,"text":"那麼移轉投票因為要將投票寄回給援護基地的選委會去開票所以南韓跟日本為什麼要搭配提前投票就是要提早投完寄回才可以在同一天開票而南韓的提前投票只限於選前的某兩天這樣子比較好管理"},{"start":4189.687,"end":4205.479,"text":"我個人認為呢如果擔心選票外流的一些問題的話南韓的制度是最值得參考而且南韓的大選投票率確實也比台灣高那實質上有沒有像剛剛選務機關講的那麼多問題其實根本沒有這麼多問題以下呢"},{"start":4211.554,"end":4223.586,"text":"給各位用圖片做一些介紹首先南韓的提前投票所只需要三個設備中間是身份確認機左邊是筆電與全國選舉人名冊連線右邊是特別的選票印支機"},{"start":4230.151,"end":4255.065,"text":"基本的配置跟台灣差不多就是只要兩人一人負責身份驗證確認筆電中的選舉人資訊第二人負責印選票以及信封標籤交給選民身份驗證設備可讀取身份證明卡片和簽名選票印製機及時印製該選民的選票"},{"start":4259.591,"end":4277.607,"text":"若某一次選舉的選票特別多同一台機器可以用不同顏色同時印製多張選票若是援護集體的提前投票只領取選票若是移轉投票多領取一個信封套"},{"start":4279.522,"end":4307.083,"text":"信封套上會印有標籤也是當場印製印有戶籍地資訊之後將由投票所統一寄回給戶籍地選委會選票在開票正式的選舉日前都集中保管24小時電視監控回頭看台灣現行草案行政院提出的不在籍投票法草案內容非常落後"},{"start":4308.174,"end":4330.806,"text":"草案要求選民必須在投票日60天前申請轉投票重新編制選舉人名冊這很不切實際年輕人的工作或求學能否返鄉投票往往臨時決定怎麼可能60日前申請日本 韓國 加拿大都沒有這種不合理要求"},{"start":4332.355,"end":4351.575,"text":"且科技進步全國各地投票所都可以用電腦即時連線到全國統一選舉人名冊不需要浪費時間編制實體選舉人名冊且能透過網路即時查詢這個人的投票狀況台灣的技術做不到嗎"},{"start":4353.882,"end":4380.084,"text":"2009年的消費券領取就是採取我們現在的編制選舉人名冊的方式非常的落後但是到了2020年的口罩實名制後來的三倍券普發現金都是全國網路連線有沒有人會重複領取呢透過身份證明網路及時查詢沒有人重複領取"},{"start":4383.254,"end":4408.203,"text":"我們的政府曾經很自豪唐鳳能在不到一個月內推出口罩實名制但在選務工作上我們還停留在編制實體選舉的名冊投票通知單上要印在名冊第幾頁人工一頁一頁查詢日本2003年4月修正公職選舉法引入提前投票制度"},{"start":4409.363,"end":4427.752,"text":"同時移轉投票也配合修正同年11月的眾議院選舉就全面實施南韓2014年1月修改公職選舉法引入提前投票與移轉投票同年6月的地方選舉就全面實施台灣呢"},{"start":4432.008,"end":4458.317,"text":"我相信不在即投票若能在2026年上半年通過年底的地方選舉絕對來得及實施台灣的科技實力也絕對做得到我期許政府官員能以科技實力落實人民的選舉權而非找各種藉口理由阻礙人民的選舉權謝謝大家好謝謝那我們繼續"},{"start":4462.432,"end":4464.072,"text":"掌櫃美教授主席各位先進大家好我覺得可能剛才因為有些機關或者是地方政府代表有提到一些問題我想我自己的部分因為有書面我就先不談但是有幾個焦點可能需要溝通"},{"start":4490.978,"end":4510.884,"text":"剛才中選會書面還是口頭都有提到說先公投後辦選舉後公職大概是這個意思但是我的疑惑是譬如說你特別投票所涉及到軍人或者是特殊身分的一些人"},{"start":4512.742,"end":4539.627,"text":"譬如說他的工作地跟他的戶籍在不同地方的人很多種不同身分的人如果你先公投那事實上我們選辦法已經通過了公投跟大選又綁回來了那所以他是不是還是要跑一趟所以這個邏輯我聽不懂這是很奇怪的邏輯也就是說你只辦公投公投跟大選是一起選結果公投的那一塊你先用移轉"},{"start":4540.93,"end":4566.081,"text":"那大選的那一塊呢那它等於是沒有幫到十億所以這是非常奇怪的邏輯這是第一個問題那第二個問題是即使你不在即投票實際上你也是同一天開票吧我想這一塊管你是什麼黨應該沒有什麼爭議我們會主張說不在即投票這個今天開 明天那個開不可能啊它一定是同一天開票"},{"start":4567.307,"end":4574.875,"text":"所以很多的疑慮在我看來是不會發生的你開票還是同一天所以這是第二個問題第三個問題"},{"start":4578.854,"end":4600.665,"text":"這個在這個所謂的不在籍投票裡面台北市選委會當然也有提到說這個移轉投票會增加兩三倍的投票數我不知道這是怎麼算出來的那當然你會涉及到你移轉要不要限制還是全面開放你就算可以移轉他也不見得會移轉所以那兩三倍是怎麼算的我不知道"},{"start":4601.545,"end":4608.607,"text":"那像大學生很多他後級不在那邊他可能會移轉搞不好很多根本連移轉都不想做他就是想回家"},{"start":4609.87,"end":4635.1,"text":"所以我們在做一些很沒有科學數據的推論我會認為對於實施不在籍投票這件事一直看到負面沒有陽光積極進取的這一塊那所以當然會涉及到移轉投票你申請資格到底要不要限制我覺得那跟行政能力有關行政能力很差你可能就限制你行政能力很強為什麼會限制我就不懂"},{"start":4635.76,"end":4646.597,"text":"那當然我剛看了一大堆機關的書面法務部的書面這次比上次認真多了在第四頁呢他提到一個法理的問題我覺得這個是可以參考的"},{"start":4647.472,"end":4675.98,"text":"也就是說投票權本來就是人民的公權所以我們是怎麼樣去促成讓他去行使而不是找各種行政的理由來阻礙他的行使這個思維是有問題的所以法務部提到說你要有差別對待的話假設你要限制身分或什麼你要有差別對待你要想到你公益跟你的這個目的之間是不是有橫平有沒有實質關聯那事物的本質是什麼事物本質法務部沒有寫當然我會想到事物的本質"},{"start":4677.06,"end":4695.096,"text":"是要人民行使公權嘛所以我覺得這個觀念上天差地差很難找到目前比較具體可以溝通的部分那當然還有一個問題就是說那哪些身份的人需要移轉呢"},{"start":4695.837,"end":4718.234,"text":"所以我在書面裡面第一個就有提到選務工作的人這個過去可能有做公務員 軍警那我上次有講過阿扁的這個2000年的時候限制出來投票的人這麼多那我們怎麼知道台灣這麼安定嗎我們怎麼知道選舉當天不會發生任何問題所以有一些人他根本來不及嘛"},{"start":4718.994,"end":4737.88,"text":"所以像這些身分的醫護人員 大學生 醫工等等這些人我覺得都是所謂不在籍投票的主要的對象我們要想辦法去解決這些問題你即使海外我們現在一巴掌就把海外全部打死我不認同有辦事處的你可以嘗試"},{"start":4739.844,"end":4750.553,"text":"大陸沒有辦事處嘛也許你可以cancel或怎麼樣我不知道你明明有辦事處你連考慮都不考慮那你要有足以說服的理由那請問理由是什麼那另外還有譬如說倒是剛才呢這個"},{"start":4758.803,"end":4775.697,"text":"各種原因裡面我倒是有注意到一個問題就是所謂社會公正人士社會公正人士我們那個很多老師不願意去做可是那個問題跟我們要不要不再一起投票這不相干我的意思 它以前就有這個問題後來我們就開放了三分之二"},{"start":4776.798,"end":4800.079,"text":"公交變三分之一了 數字本來就不一樣了你即使沒有不在即 它還是有這個問題所以我覺得因次變數 因變數一定要分清楚很多東西不要扯成一團好 那另外還有一個問題這個我覺得在書面裡面我有提到一個112的憲判制第11號"},{"start":4801.86,"end":4816.447,"text":"一二的先判之第十一號他最主要大法官給我們一個很重要的概念他說你實際居住的定義不應該再侷限在過去居家生活或住宿等傳統概念"},{"start":4817.668,"end":4840.335,"text":"我覺得這句話非常重要 我們不是農業社會人綁在土地上 幾代都不安土中天幾代都住在那裡現在時代早就不一樣 不是今天才不一樣是很早以前我們時代就變了只是我們不自覺而已 對不對你人不是綁在土地上的所以大法官在1、2憲判之十一號的觀念是非常重要的"},{"start":4841.095,"end":4863.913,"text":"他具有憲法釋憲的位階我們為什麼在所有的機關裡面不會談這一號呢我覺得這一號非常重要啊那所以他說人民基於持續就業跟所在這個所處地區實質上建立政治社群的歸屬感跟認同感也應該承認幹嘛 他在工作場所所在地區擁有選舉權嘛"},{"start":4866.611,"end":4889.594,"text":"這句話是非常重要的概念它是今天我們忙了半天的一個最主要的關鍵的思維同時我也舉了一個這個在113的應該是在第四段書面113年的7月4號這台北高等行政法院做的一個判決這時間都很近這是112年數字第969號的判決"},{"start":4891.806,"end":4908.512,"text":"那這個判決裡面 他講得非常清楚這是桃園的一個案子那所以他講的重點是什麼他的判決裡面講得非常清楚喔不管你是從文藝解釋 或者是你從目的解釋或者你從體系解釋你都應該導出什麼這是這個當事人的基本權嘛"},{"start":4915.475,"end":4928.901,"text":"那所以他說選委會呢 並不是法律上的不能也不是事實上的不能 是行政怠惰欸那這一號判決為什麼大家都不看我覺得中選會 地方選委會都應該看啊至少到目前為止沒有新的判例或判決推翻他嘛"},{"start":4935.322,"end":4958.406,"text":"那他認為是行政怠惰啊那至少你特別投票所的部分你是可以去考慮的他是有本有據的所以我覺得我們討論的基礎最好在既有的基礎上去討論否則的話你可以講一萬個理由那我請問你剛電子化政府的時候大家也抗拒啊那我們現在不是很多東西都電子化了嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們繼續請宗嘉斌委員"},{"start":4972.012,"end":4998.405,"text":"好我以為有投影先把投影放出來好謝謝主席剛剛恭聽了恭臨了幾位學者專家的意見我會很快的講今天呢我的主題啊就是台灣投票模式民主友邦都肯定不在即東勢孝平人民難信任怎麼說呢我們來看一下就在去年的九月啊有一位韓國的國會議員金文電他對他們的金明錫總理呢提出質疑他提到誇獎了台灣的"},{"start":4999.561,"end":5019.745,"text":"經濟成長率比韓國還要高除了半導體還有什麼優勢結果他得到的結論是什麼台灣的開票制度投開票制度成為韓國年輕人的嚮往我們只知道台灣的年輕人嚮往韓劇 韓流不曉得韓國年輕人居然他們會欣賞台灣的投開票制度它怎麼運作的為什麼會引起海外的激賞呢我們往下看"},{"start":5020.285,"end":5049.449,"text":"其實臺灣最有價值的資產陳如己為先進所說的就是我們的民主制度就是我們的投票模式你看就在2024年剛大選完之後居然這是一個投票什麼效果呢他可以向外向國際社會表達民意華爾街日報他就說了臺灣人民不是他是不希望被你中國干涉同時呢對內要公正公開你看連美國的政治家家都對我們臺灣開票那影片啊哇他覺得好了不起啊任何人都可以監督往下看"},{"start":5050.342,"end":5075.152,"text":"那麼台灣的民主產權怎麼投票呢什麼是民主 主權在民 民意施政怎麼成選 透過定期的選舉投票選出了民意代表可以表達我們的民意這需要什麼呢這個制度需要一個選民的信任跟完善的制度完善的制度成為我們剛剛有三位來自台北市 高雄市跟新竹縣的選務工作人員我跟大家介紹一下我過去在地方政府服務過長達十幾年"},{"start":5077.293,"end":5103.417,"text":"我很清楚知道我們地方的選委會副總幹事是最重要的靈魂人物因為他是專職專任其他的總幹事搞不好還是民政處長民政局長兼任的副總幹事最清楚我們所有選舉大大小小每一個環節他們的提醒他們的建議我們要認真的去思考因為他們要運作一個完善的制度人民選民才會信任因此公平透明而且長期的得來不易我們再往下看"},{"start":5103.976,"end":5118.043,"text":"那台灣的制度哪裡做得好呢我們先看韓國的制度韓國它可以提前投票而且不再急投票加上它集中開票用電子點票結果舞弊陰謀論就四起它雖然很方便但是反過來開票的時候耗時長而且常常會被質疑選舉造假"},{"start":5121.585,"end":5148.013,"text":"相對的台灣的制度看起來很原始對不對用紙本投票 票鬼取票 檢票唱票看起來就跟算盤一樣一個蘿蔔一個動作一個口令然後彙整後呢全程公開選民信任雖然成本比較高但是在開票耗時短沒有運送檢票的爭議那為什麼台灣要開倒車去破壞現有制度呢也不完全我們認為不在一起投票就是一種反動他其實想要解決問題要解決什麼問題我們往下看"},{"start":5150.905,"end":5165.335,"text":"其實如果我們要解決一個問題沒有成功反而創造更大的問題你們看一看就在2024年那時候美國大選虛假訊息公眾就有質疑然而在2018年台灣也經歷過公投並大選造成了呢"},{"start":5166.302,"end":5190.586,"text":"選舉的過程非常混亂還造成了包括市長的候選人之一提起了選舉訴訟那個直到一年之後才決定所以我們看到在台北市剛剛幾位像新竹縣的選委會的副總幹事台北市的選委會的副總幹事都提到了這些人口密集的地方我們所做一些變革會不會招來我們想像不到的後果呢一定要慎重不要邊開邊投選舉不公往下看"},{"start":5194.307,"end":5212.299,"text":"所以如果要便利投票我們看看目前的預算問題是什麼問題是有些人因為部分公民因為職業的屬性他沒有辦法有效率的便利去參與或者說返鄉投票成本高那當然我們看一下目前有不在籍投票或移轉投票的版本當中規範不清選民混亂剛剛幾個人提出的問題幾位選務副總幹事都提到了"},{"start":5218.243,"end":5242.536,"text":"包括我看到我們的報告當中有些這個學者專家認為我看有一個大致的取向在現實便利跟恐懼當中我們不能徘徊太久我同意這個引述但是我們要知道選務工作我們移轉投票不是像三眼療癒那麼簡單就把它移轉過去你要想想看我們的選票不是現場輸出的那麼多選票7000多種組合排列"},{"start":5247.459,"end":5271.416,"text":"雖然你可以用這樣的方式去處理但是選務的工作怎麼解決所以我們認為目前提前放假 交通便利 房子這些都是我們可以考慮的最後的結論 來 兩個台灣投票模式已經累積社會信用任何嘗試要漸進 要規劃 要審慎推動而且消除投票的障礙不在即 不是唯一的解方多元方案都可以納入評估"},{"start":5272.136,"end":5281.049,"text":"包括全國一致性的總統或全國性的公投或許可以先考慮採行但是我們機會的選舉制度不容一下子全面更動 以上好 謝謝那我們繼續請羅承宗教授"},{"start":5302.359,"end":5318.845,"text":"主席 科技觀念長官 各位學者專家 大家午安 大家好就有7分鐘的時間 但是我的PPT超過十幾張所以我很快的開始重陳一下那基本上我來的時候把立法院所有的草案都看完了"},{"start":5319.965,"end":5348.845,"text":"所以說基本 我就繼續講下去吧好 目前其實立法院的所有的草案大概分這就用這一頁啦 那個立法院的系統真的很棒我們看到說行政機關有一個政府提案委員有十六個提案我這個立法院有個做個顏色那因為太淡看不清楚 我簡單來講行政機關也有不在即投票的草案然後呢 在立法院各黨都有不在即投票的草案所以基本上不在即投票這件事情沒有人說不做啦這是共識了"},{"start":5349.785,"end":5368.74,"text":"那只是問題在哪裡呢在於範圍我們來看一下完全有共識的部分是全國性公投所以這個在我們的中選會的草案或是有些委員版的草案都把那個移轉投票的部分放在全國性公投為什麼呢因為全國性公投不管你在哪裡投都是那一張"},{"start":5369.56,"end":5399.16,"text":"所以在執行上這個是最簡單的嘛那這個就是最簡單先行的所以有共識我們就不談了那沒共識是哪裡呢基本上就是四塊第一個 總統副總統簡單來說在台灣到目前為止我們對於選事情這件事情是有共識的可以用不在己可以用疑傳但是就選人頭這件事情大家是有爭議的那這些人頭包括呢總統副總統中央層級的民選公職員地方層級的民選公職員那地方選公投基本上這個其實可以省略"},{"start":5399.72,"end":5418.542,"text":"不談啦因為其實台灣對地方性公投的興趣不是那麼高那我們就不用浪費時間繼續呢其實剛才楊志傑老師跟剛才好幾個人的爭論其實都卡在這一頁那這一頁是我原創的基本上台灣的選舉到現在為止我們採請的方式叫做non-tech"},{"start":5419.127,"end":5439.544,"text":"就是無科技就剛才我們嘉賓委員講的原始什麼叫做原始我們回想一下從領票要那個簿子資本的簿子到蓋章到財源身份證後來我們就要進去那個票軌票軌完以後要去投票投完票以後開票還是用一張白報紙貼在黑白上的政治號這是non-tech"},{"start":5440.478,"end":5455.875,"text":"不是non-tech不好反而外國覺得說台灣搞得那麼原始還那麼的厲害所以non-tech是台灣非常驕傲的一個厲害的東西但是我們就從過去到現在我們就一直在non-tech所以我們連low-tech都做不到更遑論high-tech"},{"start":5456.977,"end":5474.498,"text":"這是現在進行式這個沒有辦法好爭論的所以剛才我們很多各機關講的就是說因為我們所有在想像的就是說我們都在non-tech這個前提之下來去想說萬一立法院去擴大了不再去投票的話怎麼辦那基本上呢這個提問我自問自答我們準備好了嗎當然沒有"},{"start":5475.376,"end":5495.825,"text":"要做的話也是2027年以後為什麼是這樣呢可能楊志祺老師對預算不是很了解啦這個不是種九神塔種九神塔60天就可以收成了問題是今天你說真的要推這個草案的話呢我就問一個問題嘛 錢咧?你要建置系統吧那建置系統的話呢 你要邊概算吧我們現在2026年中央政府總預算還沒審"},{"start":5497.984,"end":5523.324,"text":"我還在用債券預算所以你今天真的要做這個事情的話現在中選會或內政部就要把電子投票所有的錢放在2027年度中央政府榮譽書的概算裡面沒有這個概算的話你怎麼推所以基本上再快你今年現在23月把概算放進去的話最快也要2027而且它的前提是不經過測試我們法律人有個很糟糕的狀況是我們不做實驗"},{"start":5524.065,"end":5552.425,"text":"那很糟糕什麼意思你任何制度的推行都要做實驗嘛這是我們科技大學的一個基本想法嘛所以你這個東西當然建制系統以後你要去run你要去試物嘛才可以真的推嘛你真的好你這個系統建制一年以後就敢丟出來用誰敢用啊所以基本上再講一次最快也要2027年啦所以也因為這樣我們在今年只能夠繼續擁抱non-tech因為沒有錢制度也不能就算制度改也做不到嘛所以一言以蔽剛才有人說基本地方今年第一"},{"start":5552.825,"end":5574.711,"text":"底的九合一可以辦我覺得不可能因為這個就是我們週一選舉會的角度有近9000種的選票我相信那些人沒有當過公務員沒有辦過選務啦9000種選票你怎麼弄啊 鬼扯 OK所以簡單來說好 看了一下我們第二段就是說如果你今年年底就要把這個適用範圍擴及最複雜的地方選舉的話呢基本上選務是鐵定無法執行的"},{"start":5575.251,"end":5590.279,"text":"那學務田徑無法執行呢我就以我們學校來講這是我們學校一個宿舍的一個角落這四個很可愛的大學男同學他們分別住在四個不同的地方好 那我們學校在高雄的楠梓跟彥草"},{"start":5591.209,"end":5616.415,"text":"所以今天這一個宿舍的小朋友們要移轉投票到校外的那個投票開票所的話你知道我們要多準備多少種選票嗎我這裡面還有長梅港我們裡面還有復興區裡面還有原住民區長所以你光是為這一間宿舍就要新增多少種選票旁邊的那個會辦到死然後更不好意思的講本校學生不過26937人"},{"start":5621.618,"end":5635.929,"text":"OK然後扣掉在籍的以後住宿舍的你看看那些學生跑出來投票的話附近的選屋大概會爆掉所以一句話今年不可能那真的是這個地方請大家思考一下再來"},{"start":5636.73,"end":5663.219,"text":"所以我們現在目前立法院的幾個草案分別是這四種態度最下面一個態度就只這兩個態度那就是只辦全國性公投那上面兩個那個是中國國民黨的草案第一個是他們認為只辦中央不要辦地方有一個這個案另外一個是比較野心大一點說要辦地方但是他留了一個後門是說地方什麼時候辦那由中央地方決之這兩個都是中國國民黨的草案然後最"},{"start":5664.652,"end":5690.968,"text":"最霸氣的是中央地方一併適用而且沒有緩衝法律通過就實行的這個是哪個案呢這個是去年台灣民眾黨的草案基本上我看完所有的草案以後最不科學理性務實就是這個案但是這個案很特別他被拉出來禁負二讀我們現在不是在簽內政委員會嗎不 內政委員會還有幾個案子被丟包在這一邊結果他真的跑去了而且禁負二讀是最好的草案也就算了可是最糟糕的"},{"start":5691.974,"end":5708.133,"text":"OK嗎他就是要再講一次他就是把範圍開到最大而且沒有緩衝基本上就是要讓基層的學務人員完全沒辦法辦這個學局然後再來我們看比較兩個相對好一點的板是王國威板跟陳薇金板王國威板的話基本上就半九合一了"},{"start":5709.314,"end":5727.644,"text":"中央的78種的立法委員區選舉要辦但是至少這個是2028年的事情我們還有點緩衝時間然後成為一金版的話就是雖然開到最大但是至少說地方選舉的部分或地方的公投的話行政機關自己決定所以你要演5年10年都可以最後幾分鐘"},{"start":5728.504,"end":5752.825,"text":"再來的話呢 給國會的具體建議就是說不要被丟包了啦最爛的那個禁負二讀的版本不要讓它出來 那不好那這個事情真的要審慎討論所以像今天這個場合就非常的健康大家一起在委員會談不是很好嗎還有很多好版本在這裡嘛再來呢 除非想搞爛選舉的害死自己剛才我們有新竹的講 還有台北的講告訴各位 北北基桃加起來有涉及900萬人口加上流動人口超過1000萬"},{"start":5753.806,"end":5774.085,"text":"如果你這個用台灣民眾版本下去玩死的話誰會被玩死 大家都知道吧OK 就被賣雞頭所以最後 可是我還是繞回來我們現在返鄉投票我們剛才這個世衛宿舍當然是真的很累然後網路時代用這個時代用網路取代馬路很難嗎所以我講的是外"},{"start":5774.645,"end":5800.138,"text":"未來可能是2030、2040年我們終究無法迴避這件事情了台灣基本上就像剛才仁俊老師講的一樣我們都可以發錢了我們都可以收稅了那這件事情我們要等到多少年謝謝我們接下來請黃仁俊教授"},{"start":5807.389,"end":5829.346,"text":"主席 各位長官 各位縣進大家好 我是黃仁俊很榮幸今天能夠前來這個不在己投票的公聽會發表一下自己作為專家學者的意見首先對於提綱一對於是否實施不當期投票我原則上是支持贊成的立場以選舉平等原則作為一個出發點"},{"start":5830.219,"end":5849.521,"text":"透過不再擠投票確實可以使公民的選舉權盡可能達到一個平等的權利也促進權力的實現但是關鍵在於哪裡關鍵永遠就是剛跟陳上一位羅老師所說的"},{"start":5850.381,"end":5871.306,"text":"關鍵在於配套機制要怎麼處理那我們之前也看過我們這個十個公投案大概就是我們的選務的量能就差不多在這裡如果是結合這個選舉跟公投綁在一起的話那十個公投案大概我們地方選舉的量能或者投開票所的量能就在這裡"},{"start":5873.137,"end":5900.476,"text":"在這裡並不是權有或權無的關係我們還是要維持想辦法維持選舉制度的信任點以及降低不在籍投票的風險對於制度的信任我們現在信任的是什麼我們現在信任的就是投票所當天轉為開票所的歷來做法以及我們希望的是選舉結果可以在當天傍晚出爐的期待性"},{"start":5901.517,"end":5930.134,"text":"這是我們不想要去變動的那也是我們的信任的基礎所以我們在這個選舉量能的前車之鑑之下如果選舉版公投現在是已經在公投法第23條有規定了那我們未來可能會面臨到的是不是要分離開票因為會真的開不出來就是要開到半夜這樣或者是要技術性的分離受理也就是用技術性的逃離公投法23條"},{"start":5931.155,"end":5938.496,"text":"或者是只先開選舉票那公投票隔一天再開的這個可能性這是我們可以想像"},{"start":5939.707,"end":5967.538,"text":"那同時我們要如何降低不在籍投票的風險在這個提綱來說都會想到是有境外敵對勢力的不當干預但我們也不要忘記我們已經有一部這個反滲透法它就在選舉期間然後來對這個境外敵對勢力的不當干預進行相關的管制所以公民團體的擔憂在跟制度信賴的本身我們必須要做一個權衡但這個權衡不是"},{"start":5969.039,"end":5986.911,"text":"全有或全無都不做或者是全部都開放而是如何想辦法一步一步的這個做那我們這個移轉投票或公民投票不在籍投票其實是已經很久了就是從102年開始我們一直開始在思考如何進行但"},{"start":5988.226,"end":6014.292,"text":"如何進行就是要跨出這個勇敢的第一步勇敢的第一步要怎麼做呢我們要先思考的是不在即投票對於選務量能我們的選務量能到底在哪裡是不是有可以限縮或者是總量管制的說法就是說一轉投票當然有可能我們這個投開票所就可能多少額量就只能多少額量如果你要去其他投開票所那你就去其他或者就沒有了"},{"start":6015.052,"end":6032.911,"text":"那或者是只開放上午的做法因為下午因為他票國要回原選區為什麼票國要回原選區呢這裡有一個很重要的關鍵是我們剛剛那個新竹選委會有提到說會有選舉訴訟的開始我們的選舉訴訟會有一個重新計票的可能性"},{"start":6033.86,"end":6061.267,"text":"那地方法院就是要去封票軌那你票軌如果不再起投票一個票軌在那個法院的管轄地就會出現了相關的爭議我台北的法院要跑去高雄那邊做管理去封票軌嗎還是那個票軌要趕快回來到台北這裡會有一個票軌要如何要進行的思考點也涉及到法院的管轄地這邊這邊是我們現行法所還沒有這個談論的但我覺得也是可以思考的點"},{"start":6062.287,"end":6088.033,"text":"那不再集投票看起來就是要走一個漸進式的這個內涵那我們剛剛也看到這個建案二讀通過的版本先行法的法案先行法的法案是已經有原住民先行的可能性了那我在這裡我想不到有可以跟全國性跟地方性要分開的區別標準為什麼全國性優先為什麼不全國性優先而這樣的區別標準是"},{"start":6089.298,"end":6116.649,"text":"我覺得是想不到的有可能是這個量能的可能性量能的可能性我自己是思考的點是希望可以用原住民立委先行的模式讓我們試辦一下怎麼樣進行以變動最小的方式來試行那在這個二讀的版本之間我有一個小小的疑惑就是這個補選不在此限的議題為什麼補選會被排除有可能是因為這個經濟的考量"},{"start":6118.49,"end":6138.508,"text":"那但是呢我們從大法官這個憲法法庭一二憲判十八來選舉重新計票案他就已經規定了我們選舉不會分大小不應該分大小不應該分是一個鄉村縣市長的選舉跟選村長的選舉而對於選舉的功能有所不一樣有所"},{"start":6140.51,"end":6150.164,"text":"差別待遇所以補選應該也不應該被差別待遇補選應該也要可以納入這個不在籍投票的思考點"},{"start":6151.348,"end":6180.411,"text":"那第四個提綱誰可以擔任這個不在籍投票的人當然是有選舉權的人那在這裡我們有選舉權的人申請這個投票的時候很重要就是要注意這個投票秘密的思考點就是現行的選務人員同樣也現行的選務人員投票同樣也面臨這個選務秘密的這個思考點是不是要集中就是票軌要集中開在一起還是要當天"},{"start":6181.692,"end":6190.798,"text":"當天的投票所轉開票所這個是一個可以討論的空間那最後也是希望可以本人申請跟親自到場來進行相關的模式"},{"start":6191.769,"end":6216.951,"text":"那考量選務的可行性我是認為就是有準備歧視比較合理啦那這一點呢是可能需要選務選政就是內政部中選會還有立法機關三方可以再進行討論跟協商法案的機制但有一點要就是作為一個法律學者或憲法公法學者想要提出的是我們在立法裡喔每次經過政黨協商後或臨時動議後"},{"start":6219.173,"end":6240.348,"text":"立法理由就不見了這個對我們法律學者是一個很困擾的事為什麼政黨協商協商後不能有一個形式上的立法理由呢而且那每次那你要做原意解釋的時候或立法者解釋的時候我們都不知道立法者在想什麼都寫政黨協商四個字這一點是未來立法者可以思考的我們"},{"start":6241.369,"end":6257.086,"text":"看政黨寫上四個字是無法做法規範的解釋的那希望在法案通過前呢會有其他跟法律的整合譬如說我們戶籍的變動還有原住民選區的搭配以及選取期程的"},{"start":6259.329,"end":6282.507,"text":"這個設計票務的運送運算的增加以及選舉訴訟的管轄這是我們希望在法案通過前能夠多方的匯集相關的意見以及法案通過後中選會這裡很大部分是要依賴中選會訂定執法的這方面也需要相關的法案研究還有相關的這個努力來進行最後做一個小小的結論就是"},{"start":6284.127,"end":6306.779,"text":"要改善在籍者投票跟不在籍者投票其實兩者之間是並沒有衝突的就是在籍者投票跟這兩回事那公投綁大選之下我們關鍵點還是要去盤點選務的量能在選務可負擔下依法推動不在籍投票好 謝謝我的報告到此謝謝好 謝謝那我們繼續請麥玉珍委員"},{"start":6317.659,"end":6339.592,"text":"主席各位專家學者親愛的家人大家好今天我代表台灣民眾黨熱烈的歡迎我們大家各位專家在百忙之中願意抽空時間來我們的立法院指導及建議我要向大家報告台灣民眾黨提出不再即投票"},{"start":6340.253,"end":6360.96,"text":"立法草案不是為了顛覆制度而是為了回應人民真正的生活樣貌今天台灣有超過200萬人民因為就學工作輪班或照顧家庭被迫在投票日長途返鄉付出時間金錢與體力的成本"},{"start":6367.232,"end":6382.081,"text":"這本身就是一道不合理的民主門檻台灣民眾黨版本的核心非常清楚我要跟大家講三次在台灣 在台灣 在台灣很清楚了"},{"start":6382.714,"end":6386.376,"text":"所以境內移轉投票以特定身份指定場所投票我們不採通信投票不採網路投票所有投票的行為都是本人親自到投票所完成確保投票秘密與選舉的安全這是一套在安全與便利之間最保守最可監督的"},{"start":6412.688,"end":6438.68,"text":"最能落實的制度設計行政部門多次以共識不足還有就是票種複雜風險過高作為反對的理由但我們要強調制度複雜從來不是從來不是不改革的正當理由中選會自己也承認總統副總統選舉於"},{"start":6442.322,"end":6464.167,"text":"全國性公投因為票種單一以轉投票具備可行性相關草案也早在很久就已經提出了問題不是做不到而是為什麼可行的部分不先"},{"start":6465.807,"end":6474.734,"text":"執行我們主張分階段分票種事辦推動用技術解決技術的問題用制度降低風險而不是用想像的風險否決人民的權利"},{"start":6485.307,"end":6491.369,"text":"至於會選與動員先行返鄉投票早已存在灰色空間跟需要一套的透明可集合的制度把問題攤在陽光下不再急投票不是為了方便少數人民而是讓年輕人不被再擋在外面"},{"start":6514.707,"end":6524.964,"text":"也沒辦法執行自己的民主之外也讓長輩安心之度不被破壞真正的民主不是口號"},{"start":6526.308,"end":6555.202,"text":"不是補貼 也不是多放假而是讓人民在生活所在地用安全有效又接地氣變民的方式行使投票權希望我們一起共同討論出一套讓我們人民的需求也變民又符合現在的技術建立一套符合這樣的人民的版本"},{"start":6557.543,"end":6582.4,"text":"讓我們大家真正的為人民的需求辨明來去做一個我們的修法謝謝主席也再次謝謝我們的專家學者各位官員各位的來支持我們這個法案希望我們把這個法案真正再上路讓我們全國都可以享用 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":6586.314,"end":6589.496,"text":"我們繼續請黃澄漢研究員主席 各位委員 在座的專家學者我想我們之前已經開過一個性質非常類似的公聽會我想在這次大家也在繼續的交流更多的意見我想最近開始在討論就是"},{"start":6613.395,"end":6629.606,"text":"應該說唯一在討論的版本就是民眾黨團的版本我們看到張啟凱委員他在新聞上說就跟剛剛也有老師講到就是說日本跟南韓的不在籍投票制度可能會是民眾黨黨團的參考的點"},{"start":6632.848,"end":6658.677,"text":"但是有一個重點就是大家一直都沒有討論到就是說台灣是一個強烈的人籍合一的國家也就是說我們大部分的政治權利還有其他很多的權利都跟戶籍有高強度的綑綁那但是日本他是這個所謂的戶籍和住民票分離的這個人籍分離的制度韓國同樣也是採取人籍分離的制度那就是因為這個人籍分離的問題"},{"start":6660.037,"end":6677.404,"text":"我們要去考量就是說在立法案有裡面提到部分國民常年因在外地就學這個移地工作不同的因素那但是從這個角度來看如果用我們這個人機合一的戶籍法精神來看待的話他應該要有這個簽戶籍的事實"},{"start":6679.205,"end":6702.235,"text":"再來就是說從這個角度來看或許我們應該重新的來討論個人政治權利跟戶籍綑綁的正當性的基礎在哪邊但這是一個非常長遠的課題不過從這個角度來看投票給在住地的立委 市長或是在住地的議員跟里長或許比不在籍的移轉投票在這個立法的角度上更加合理回到今天公聽會的主旨第一題就是說"},{"start":6709.161,"end":6738.349,"text":"如何避免選務混亂如何避免境外敵對勢力不當的干預剛剛大家都提到很多從金明聯的立場我們已經多次的強調已經有既定的事實是一個借選的模式是受中共中央台灣工作辦公室所指導的一個單位叫全國台灣同胞投資企業聯誼會我們簡稱它叫台企聯在過去已經有非常明確的案例可以看到它以提供優惠機票的方式"},{"start":6739.349,"end":6766.982,"text":"來幫助介入台灣的民主選舉這已經是過去多次的選舉都有出現的案例州選會和相關的機關至今仍然沒有有效的方式來因應這個問題為什麼要提到這個就是說未來如果採取無限制的一轉投票我們要去考慮的是台企聯過去要買機票送大家回台北送大家回高雄送大家回台中這個機票的成本是高昂的"},{"start":6767.842,"end":6787.671,"text":"那他現在他可以協助在中國居住之台灣有選舉權的人來辦理移轉投票到金門 馬祖來實行小三通來降低他介入選舉的成本那從這個角度來看這個問題我們目前仍然沒有看到在討論中有很好的處理方式跟解決的方式"},{"start":6788.411,"end":6797.874,"text":"所以從這個角度來看不是張祺凱委員他提到說沒有通訊投票沒有海外投票或是剛剛麥玉珍委員也提到沒有通訊投票沒有海外投票所以不會有這個借選的問題所以大家在抹紅他們但是我們不是在討論這個單一的委員的意圖我們在討論是說在討論不在籍投票的法案的時候我們需要同步的考慮可能的介入選舉的狀況但"},{"start":6815.599,"end":6838.748,"text":"現在我們在現有的法案我們在現有的管制裡面我們沒有看到可能對於介入選舉的可能性的管制再來就是說民政黨黨團的版本目前它仍然沒有明確的規定申請的程序為何我們過去也已經提到如果只需要書面的申請而不需要本人自護證機關來查核身份來進行申請的話"},{"start":6842.93,"end":6847.691,"text":"很容易就出現像是過去剛剛選務委員也提到就是說可能會有會選的問題這是其一第二就是他可能不需要花錢會選了他只要取得你的身分證字號他只要取得你的簽名的樣式他就可以進行茂名的移轉讓選舉人在到現場的時候沒有票可以投立法者應該要來去思考怎麼去處理這個問題"},{"start":6869.81,"end":6878.691,"text":"那成員來看我們認為對於不在籍投票的核心意義我們仍然要予以支持那就是鼓勵或是說促進大家參與政治的意願"},{"start":6879.758,"end":6907.292,"text":"但是提案政黨所舉例的各種不在籍投票的案例包括日本 包括韓國平均而言它的投票率是比台灣還要低的所以我們要考慮的是如果你的立法意旨是為了提升投票率的話那它可能不一定可以達成這個效果因為過去的政治學研究有告訴我們說不在籍投票鼓勵的是那些本來就會去投票的人進行不在籍投票而不是鼓勵更多人出來投票"},{"start":6909.656,"end":6926.446,"text":"通選投票 境外投票跟代理投票我想大家的共識是它不可能也不可以在台灣實施那這正是因為包括在這個資安上的疑慮包括我們境外勢力的疑慮這些投票對於我們的這個民主的傷害可能會大過它的效果"},{"start":6926.866,"end":6941.677,"text":"那電子投票仍然有高度的資安風險而且選舉結果不容易獲得大家的信任我們也認為是難以推動那所以最後可以討論的就是一轉投票特色投票和提前投票需要在審慎的思考之後才能來緩步的推動"},{"start":6945.109,"end":6957.339,"text":"剛剛已經有委員討論到就是說如果採行不再一投票的話我們會涉及到8896種選票的轉移這個是目前大家還沒有討論出一個很好的方式來處理這個問題"},{"start":6959.338,"end":6979.178,"text":"再來就是說我們認為目前已經三讀通過原住民不在意投票都還沒有正式的來實施我們根本就不知道不在意投票它的效果是怎麼樣它可能產生的問題是怎麼樣在這個時候貿然的討論2026年的選舉應該採取全面性的不在意投票它的問題可能會比它的效果更多"},{"start":6981.56,"end":6997.242,"text":"剛剛選委有提到這個工作膨脹的問題我們就不再提所以從這個角度來看我們覺得針對現行的條文現行的施行方式針對總統 副總統選舉還有原住民立委的選舉來實施全面性的不再計投票可能會是相對更妥適的方案"},{"start":6998.962,"end":7025.63,"text":"所以如同前面所述現在的不再投票的草案仍然有非常多的細節還有問題需要來中選會來這個制定相關的細則還有需要主管機關來討論解決那為了避免新法造成的選務問題還有爭議它可能會嚴重的衝擊人民對於選舉結果之信任在中選會的相關的事情細則公佈前我們認為不應該採行全面的不再投票也就是說這個"},{"start":7027.811,"end":7041.943,"text":"現在立法說公佈日時薪是不可行的再來就是說我們認為州選會它已經公佈投票日還有工作進行程序表的選舉它也不可能來採行不再接投票"},{"start":7043.322,"end":7063.144,"text":"那最後就是說我們當初這個在討論不在意投票的時候有很大的一部分的範圍是希望保障有很多選舉權實際上被剝奪的人那在這個草案裡面他列在這個第六條但是我沒有看到他如何來保障這些人的投票權事實上是沒有很明確的這個制度性的"},{"start":7063.965,"end":7079.536,"text":"而保障那再來就是說我們要去很認真的討論的是如果特定的地區它存在嚴重干預選舉的風險的話我們有沒有機制來避免在這個區域或在這個類別來採行不在即投票那這正如我前面講到了這個台氣連的問題"},{"start":7081.584,"end":7108.565,"text":"那再來就是說目前的草案他其實沒有說明選票印製和轉移的細節那他可能會覺得說因為我們有這個相關的作業要點來處理這個問題但是我們要去知道的是包括這個日本韓國在內他的不在籍投票事實上是一種early voting他事實上是一種在大家開始進行實體投票之前就轉移完投票的選舉制度那這是剛剛比較少討論到的那"},{"start":7110.106,"end":7137.663,"text":"目前的這個選舉票硬制分發保管作業要點沒有考量到完全沒有考量到不在籍投票的立法的設立那未來要去施行的話會有很多的問題那最後就是說如果我剛剛討論到就是說我們大家都提到要學習日韓的不在籍投票或是不在者投票制度我們要非常認真的考慮到剛剛提到的那些制度都不是跟普通的投票方式跟相同的方式進行"},{"start":7138.283,"end":7147.472,"text":"他是在這個投票正式的投票之前就把這個選票進行轉移就把票投下去由這個相關的選務機關轉移到這個戶籍地來方便大家開票所以如何讓這個選舉結果可以保持在同一天可以開票完畢讓這個台灣的民主慣習可以繼續往"},{"start":7159.603,"end":7177.737,"text":"繼續的維持這也是大家在討論不在籍投票的時候需要非常認真的考慮的但是從現在的草案來看採行現在的不在籍投票是不可能在一天內把這個選舉結果做公佈那這對大家的民主信任會產生多少傷害我想這個大家要自己去思量以上報告好 謝謝我們繼續請吳錦青 細索主任"},{"start":7192.442,"end":7211.998,"text":"主席在座各位大家好剛剛一開始聽了那個機關機關代表這邊的那個發言讓我想到一個問題就是說如果大家看一下包括這個機關的書面包括大家聽起來大家都認為這個不在即投票這個方向是要實行的然後呢"},{"start":7220.679,"end":7223.883,"text":"可是這個機關這邊都提出非常多現實面的技術或者是一些困難等等的問題那我就想到一個問題那不是我們更該要趕快立法更趕快嗎更趕快來做這件事來建置這些相關的"},{"start":7234.85,"end":7247.917,"text":"相關的這些客戶這些困難的一些系統或者是機制因為如果你今天又是今天的這個會期或是下一個會期針對這個問題還是說延後10次連法律這邊都沒通過的話那我看以後你越晚的話建制的成本越來越高我看以後都不可能了我們就永遠都保留在那個最原始就是羅教授講的No Tech的這個部分"},{"start":7263.386,"end":7279.989,"text":"那因為這個提綱太多啦我只針對我自己的認為重要的或自己的一個想法點幾點講出來就好了那首先呢這個不在意投票剛才已經講的很多了就我們憲法129條他強調普通平等直接無記名所以除非你有非常強的理由認為說他這個人不應該怎樣不應該實現他的一個"},{"start":7292.383,"end":7298.346,"text":"這個選舉權 否則的話你就應該要保障它所以我先講結論這個不再擠投票它絕對是實現這個憲法129條人民的選舉權一個非常非常重要的方式那今天如果一直到了包括今天 甚至包括未來幾年這個都不可能實踐這一步的話那我覺得這個就不是個人或者是什麼技術的問題而絕對是國家的問題"},{"start":7322.199,"end":7343.883,"text":"那目前不在籍投票最大的問題就是我把它列三點我認為因為有一些跟實體投票的問題一樣的我就不講了比方說像會選的問題那這個我想有在籍不在籍這個都一樣那我認為首先第一個就是同意性確定的問題就是說這個投票者我們怎麼確定他是不是這個人"},{"start":7345.064,"end":7365.719,"text":"去投的不管你用什麼不在籍投票的方式然後再來如果保密秘密性的問題然後再來是如果確保是在自由意志之下那我就舉一個最極端的例子我覺得如果這個受刑人的投票權如果能夠我們如果在紀錄上能夠保障他的不在籍投票的話我想其他的問題都解決了"},{"start":7367.06,"end":7388.228,"text":"那這個就是國內的啦好那因為齁這個剛才齁那個我看一下這個民眾黨經過讀的這個版本裡面齁他有提到就是說齁包括監索就是受刑人未受刺激公權的他這樣列啦齁阿等一下我會再看一下那個我們再看一下那個條文這個基本上我覺得這個是有問題的因為我們2005年齁刑法修正第36條"},{"start":7392.717,"end":7414.564,"text":"目前首先第一個受刑人他不一定會被褫奪公權這第一點如果他沒有完全沒有被褫奪公權他就跟我們一般人一樣就可以選取所有的這個權利好那再來就算褫奪公權他只是沒有任公職以及出來怎樣來當公職候選人的權利有關的選舉罷免創制互決這個權利他仍然存在"},{"start":7419.707,"end":7423.408,"text":"意思表示什麼我們現在的所有的受刑人他全部都有投票權喔都有發明權喔所以呢在上一次選舉的時候剛才呢那個有位那個已經走掉了昆美老師他有提到那一號判決那一號判決北高興呢是判這個受刑人這邊贏可是這個最高刑罪案把他撤銷啦所以目前這個案件還沒確定"},{"start":7448.337,"end":7461.026,"text":"好那他他這裡就提到了就是說我這裡看一下就是說我們公職剛才也有提到就是說我們一直把那個投票權跟那個戶籍綁在一起我覺得這一點也真的是這個可能要"},{"start":7461.502,"end":7466.285,"text":"要立法院這邊要重更改 改個可能在這裡他說除了六個問題一定要在戶籍地 哇這個就把他卡死了很多人沒有辦法去投票了那頂多呢他25條這邊只是規定就是說如果那個選入工作的人員可以做這些東西"},{"start":7482.176,"end":7490.988,"text":"但是我們首先就受刑人來講因為他有投票權沒有錯可是他如果要申請回戶籍去投票的話各位認為監獄會不會同意"},{"start":7494.88,"end":7511.729,"text":"那不可能的話 那你勢必要用所謂的移轉投票就要在投開票所去設去設那個投票站但問題來了 因為受刑人可能來自全國各個戶籍那有可能他的戶籍這一個 只有比方說台東好了某某鄉 那只有他一個"},{"start":7517.242,"end":7543.429,"text":"那這樣的話在這裡我們又要在這裡開那個所謂的秘密牆就不見了更重要的是在監獄這個監獄這個有沒有可能有自由意志能不能容易受干擾那相類似的問題還有什麼軍人也一模一樣好 那我只要講說可是如果可不可以用這些理由就完全否定掉受刑人所有他的投票權利呢這個當然是要答一個問啦"},{"start":7544.749,"end":7569.983,"text":"然後再來就是說我剛才聽一下好像大家比較傾向於所謂的移轉如果要不再移投票要移轉投票的方式就是在各地設投票所但是好像感覺起來都一律否定什麼電子投票 通訊投票我也認為這個是有問題的因為這個等於是說在海外的全部都排除掉了"},{"start":7570.903,"end":7590.866,"text":"那當然你要講說在海外那個干擾性可能更高這個我也承認但問題就是說我要強調除非你有很重大的那個公益性的理由你看如果連受刑人他都有投票權的話如果我們也要考慮保障他的話那在海外的這些我們在這個自由中華民國籍的海外這些人士呢"},{"start":7591.646,"end":7596.868,"text":"所以這個基本上我還是認為說在考慮不再舉投票的時候不能完全否定這個科技投票的方式那當然這個科技投票的方式還是它的問題還是存在比方說同一性怎麼確定有沒有那個駭客或者是科技干擾的問題還有保障秘密或者是自由意志的問題它的問題可能也不會比那個一轉投票所少但是基本上"},{"start":7619.957,"end":7633.123,"text":"我認為這個在考慮不在 都要一致考量不過我看一下各個版本尤其是民眾黨版本最後還是選擇一個跟實體投票差不多的就是一轉投票那有關這個一轉投票因為相關的細節又不談了首先第一個就是說要不要把它分開就是說大家認為正義性比較不高的全國性公投"},{"start":7644.528,"end":7652.65,"text":"我們先來做 然後選人的往後面 我認為這樣是不是很適合 尤其是如果現在呢 三個月前要公投綁大選的話那你把它做切割的話那一個可以 一個不可以 那你這個很怪啊 對不對這個非常非常奇怪好 然後再來就是這個移轉投票的方式 當然這個民政黨這個我覺得比較像是一個原則性的立法啦比較像原則性的立法基本上呢 它呢"},{"start":7672.712,"end":7692.484,"text":"要具體適用可能比較困難而且我跟他們就是說完全沒有考慮到電子投票通訊投票的方式然後再來就是我剛才提到你要那個範圍到底是多少而且是說那個在監所的因為我的時間一直亮亮的我會心神不寧所以我趕快做一個總結我覺得我的建議是說"},{"start":7694.346,"end":7705.978,"text":"應該先通一個原則性的立法啦就是不再急投票 一個原則性你也不要區分選的選事就在這一個然後具體的在連關聯性的就在我們公職的公職的選報 總統副總統選報以及公民投票在針對那個細節的部分去做規定然後再授權給中央選委去做啦"},{"start":7713.406,"end":7728.041,"text":"而且更重要是不能一概去否定電子投票或者是通訊投票的問題我最後的結語就是說還是那一句話無法行駛不是個人的問題而是國家沒有盡到現所應苛於的義務謝謝好 謝謝那我們繼續請廖藝民教授"},{"start":7748.009,"end":7762.027,"text":"主席 以在座各位學者專家在座各位先進 大家午安我個人非常榮幸能夠有這個機會受貴會的邀請來參加這個公聽會尤其我更高興能夠成為最後一個發言的學者"},{"start":7762.987,"end":7778.132,"text":"因為各位發言學者能夠對一些比較實務上的細節上的問題就可以忽略不談對於我們討論提綱裡面更精細的一些問題我也可以稍微做簡單簡化的回答"},{"start":7778.912,"end":7806.853,"text":"但是對於今天所有的委員跟專家學者們所提出的意見我這邊卻可以用我本來想要發言的這個發言稿裡面的一些意見再把它給更加的理論化或者是方法學化來讓我們大家今天所處理的問題能夠更明確了解這個處理的方法尤其是能夠提供給各位大院各位委員能夠在做立法的選擇的時候"},{"start":7807.894,"end":7835.301,"text":"有一個比較公平的而不是有政黨的這個考量的這樣選擇那麼在我的發言稿裡面有提到說在我們這個主要的問題是在所謂的恐懼與權力之間的徘徊但是依我個人就受政治學跟法學的訓練當我們遇到同當我們遇到人民尤其是弱者的權力的時候"},{"start":7836.38,"end":7852.885,"text":"遇到弱者的權利的時候大概我們沒有辦法讓弱者面對恐懼我們只能由政府跟有力量的人來根據我們的權利來讓弱者沒有恐懼那在這樣的一種理念之下呢我這邊透過立法政策分析的"},{"start":7854.545,"end":7880.36,"text":"立法的政策分析的方法將不在籍投票的這個議題分作用一個類型化的方法來做區別因為到目前為止各個政黨的版本對於不在籍投票的各種規定基本上缺乏最基本的或是最符合學理的類型化因為沒有類型化大家就容易在討論的時候公說公有理 婆說婆有理"},{"start":7881.4,"end":7908.704,"text":"那我們怎麼講 講到類型化呢主要就是要把不在籍投票的這個不在籍的原因還有不在籍的這個地點也就是空間跟意願這兩個向量來做分別首先從空間的向量來做分別的話不在籍就有分兩種不在籍一種是境內的不在籍一種是境外的不在籍當然境內就是包括颱風金馬境外就是颱風金馬以外"},{"start":7909.977,"end":7927.25,"text":"那麼如果就意願的這個向量來做分類的話就又分作自願的不在籍或非自願的不在籍也就是說你沒辦法去投票是你自己的選擇甚至你是可以選擇回家投票的或者是你根本毫無選擇的機會"},{"start":7929.127,"end":7952.697,"text":"那麼就這兩個向量就可以用這個交叉相乘的矩陣就可以得出四種不在籍投票一種是境內的自願不在籍第二種是境內的非自願不在籍第三種是境外的自願不在籍第四種是境外的非自願不在籍"},{"start":7953.919,"end":7982.608,"text":"那麼就在座各位先進的就法律的基本理念以及我們台灣所最重視的人權價值的觀念來說的話大概在處理不在籍投票這方面呢對於境內與境外的考量上面可能在考量的這個重要性還不如自願或非自願也就是說假設在座的各位您或者是您的您所愛人或您的家人"},{"start":7983.541,"end":8007.616,"text":"他只是因為他不是因為他的選擇他純粹是被強迫了他沒有辦法選擇回去去投票的話這個時候所產生的就已經不只是憲法或選罷法的任何一條任何一條條文的這個違反問題而是一個最基本的邏輯上的問題那就是我有選舉權我卻沒有選舉權這種現象"},{"start":8012.591,"end":8026.363,"text":"我有選舉權我卻沒有選舉權我為什麼沒有選舉權因為我就是被剝奪了選舉權可是你不是有選舉權嗎no no no no no我又被某種機關或我無法選擇或被迫的某種因素剝奪了我的選舉權這時候變成"},{"start":8030.455,"end":8059.864,"text":"我有卻沒有這個是大家覺得知道這必須在我們立法上面無論哪一個黨派的立法委員我相信各位基於人類的自然理智都應該覺得要去解決問題那就是要去處理既有選舉權卻沒有選舉權的這個邏輯矛盾的問題那至於另外一種現象如果是有一種現象是大家都知道就是我們不太需要透過法律去賦予的人權就是既有既要且要"},{"start":8060.731,"end":8087.757,"text":"我既要選舉權我還要能夠想在哪裡選就在哪裡選這就叫既要且要我想我不認為立法者有必要透過複雜的法律跟大量的選舉的行政開銷來讓台灣的民眾有某些人既要選舉權又要想要在哪裡選就想要在哪裡選這樣的權利"},{"start":8089.062,"end":8117.411,"text":"所以這個既要且要的我是反對那如果各位能夠理解我這樣的分類的話我們就想說對於非自願的境內或境外不在籍投票我們該如何處理以及該如何處理能夠循序漸進這個議題就能夠更進一步去處理我個人認為境內的非自願也就是境內的被強迫的不在籍投票的處理"},{"start":8118.612,"end":8135.331,"text":"應該是可以作為這個會期或者是下個會期我們立法院在討論的時候不分黨派的一個共識如何處理境內的非自願的無法投票人他們的問題這個在無論透過科技上的"},{"start":8136.332,"end":8153.808,"text":"科技上的運用或者是即使是非科技上的多一點的人力成本的運用其實都可以處理好的我相信在座各位先進所提出以及之前面許多行政長官的意見發言"},{"start":8155.449,"end":8171.678,"text":"我認為都對於所謂的境內的非自願的不在籍投票都能夠處理唯一可能有點問題那就是好像票有很多張還有這個比方說如果是個獸型人或是一個癌症患者他到底是要投"},{"start":8172.819,"end":8187.206,"text":"投當地的 醫院當地的還是監所當地的還是在外面當地的這個事情我認為透過立法的協商處理或中選會的行政命令來處理我認為就可以解決了"},{"start":8188.387,"end":8202.189,"text":"至於境外的非自願的不在籍投票我個人認為這種境外的非自願的不在籍投票人數就我個人理解不是很多"},{"start":8203.174,"end":8219.815,"text":"尤其是都是我們中華民國政府可以掌控的如果無法掌控的或是無法 比方說事先申報或是無法掌控的這個軍工教育人員的話這種境外的非自願的不再投票就當作沒有這些都是境外自願的"},{"start":8220.436,"end":8243.169,"text":"那對於境外的非自願人員的不再起投票的這個議題透過政府對於自己的駐外的人員或者是派駐外國人員或者是國外人員他們的在外被迫無法返鄉的人員他們的申報或是他們的這個如何處理來解決這個問題應該是可以解決的"},{"start":8245.45,"end":8266.93,"text":"那麼最後對於境內或境外的自願的不在籍投票我認為只要非自願的不在籍投票能夠做處理的話慢慢慢慢再來解決自願型的不在籍投票應該在立法的選擇上面跟技術上面會比較簡單一點以上是我個人的心得 謝謝各位"},{"start":8270.46,"end":8291.272,"text":"好 謝謝那今天我們所有的專家學者都已經第一輪發言結束了那不知道有沒有人要第二輪發言這是羅教授嗎 羅教授好 那請那我們第二輪發言三分鐘"},{"start":8299.042,"end":8320.449,"text":"因為剛才沒講完我的那個簡報可不可以再回來一下 謝謝這個也是程序更新那個因為剛才那個麥委員有出來講那真的非常的感佩麥委員為什麼呢因為其實麥委員剛才講的那些內容跟那個他們前年提的版本不一樣"},{"start":8321.489,"end":8347.87,"text":"那為什麼 因為前年版本的話呢其實就是非常的剛硬它只有12條扣掉了三條去頭去尾加持性細則以後十支條紋沒有幾條就有條然後呢所謂的漸進慢慢的來的話呢完全不在這個地方所以這個也更能驗證那個進覆二讀的這個版本非常的不行所以我相信邁委員也回歸了科學理性務實的這樣的態度這個真的是非常的嘉許所以內政委員會真的很棒這是第一點那第二點"},{"start":8349.311,"end":8377.504,"text":"我要補充的是剛才有一頁我們有用到是這個是未來式啦但是我們原始的這個東西能撐多久我不知道像我們在大學遇到的是十幾歲跟二十幾歲的人那我們繼續再不做的話其實你很難說服這一些新世代的年輕人所以基本上他們一直在想就是說反正再複雜的事情一支手機就可以搞定的話我們不是要不要做的問題只是說什麼時候做我也真的誠摯呼籲我們行人同仁"},{"start":8378.004,"end":8404.659,"text":"我們再撐也撐不了多久這五年做不了 十年也要做十年做不了 二十年以後也要做所以我們那個non-tech可能還是要走到low-tech或high-tech這是第二點要補充的再來 我忘了帶了我很想請問楊志傑老師的那個簡報楊志傑老師的簡報有一個韓國的機器有辦法交出來嗎用人家的簡報是蠻低級的事情不過我還是要講一下我有帶 等我一下"},{"start":8412.286,"end":8430.739,"text":"因為柯大老師會注意這件事情光是你要買這三台機器我們現在有個規定叫做非紅供應鏈所以你不可以買那個中國製造的你用中國製造的話 大家會害怕嘛 對不對好 那非中國製造的非紅供應鏈你光是要買這三台機器 你要買高階"},{"start":8432.028,"end":8450.059,"text":"那你知道這一台印表機要多少錢了嗎所以這件事情會涉及到說今天不是說立法萬能主義訂了法條出來又行政立案又做得到不可能啦光是買印表機這件事我跟各位報告我剛才沒有講清楚現在邊概算什麼時候可以買呢明年假設立法院真的乖乖審預算的話"},{"start":8450.959,"end":8473.403,"text":"1月1號可以買問題是買了以後我還要開標還要大家來投標來驗收嘛我買到硬體機器的時間可能都2027年中了啦然後呢我現在講硬體還沒講軟體咧還沒有講網路咧所以整個建制起來以後的話呢我真的鐵定講不要說2027啦2028年你在地方你在那個全國大選想要用電子投票的可能性都不高啦"},{"start":8474.023,"end":8500.261,"text":"所以我講的未來是不是這一兩年 三年我只是把時間放長五年 十年 二十年我們都拖不了了甚至我最後一句話還有一分鐘現在大家坐捷運都看得到不管男女老幼或幼稚園大家都畫手機然後大家小孩子不吃飯也是用手機餵他或平板餵他所以我再講一次我們真的撐不了多久了所以這件事情其實回應吳景慶老師是說總是要做的話我們現在其實預作規劃是比較健康理性的方式以上補充 謝謝"},{"start":8503.388,"end":8515.621,"text":"好還有沒有我們的專家學者沒有在那個請問一下那個我們列席的與會機關代表有沒有還要再回應說明都沒有"},{"start":8518.76,"end":8543.562,"text":"好 其實在座除了選委會之外我覺得只有我親自辦過選舉我以前也是台北縣選委會的總幹事只有我親自有食物剛剛各縣市講的其實都是食物上的問題確實有那些問題我們如何去克服"},{"start":8544.563,"end":8560.462,"text":"有的東西是花了錢 花更多錢 有更多人可以解決技術上的問題但大家 我要在這邊跟大家報告一下以我選委會總幹事的經驗選舉最重要的是公信力"},{"start":8561.343,"end":8585.008,"text":"我還是要強調公信力三個字科技可以解決很多的技術性問題但我們如何在運用科技的時候如何有公信力這我覺得才是最重要的我相信我們所有的基層的選委會的同仁大家拚了幾十年這樣子我們建立起來的公信力大家都不希望這個公信力不見"},{"start":8585.828,"end":8610.237,"text":"那今天有很多比如說禁服二讀的法案這個要移轉投票理想都是很好的我只想有一個點大家思考一下未來如果這樣子的話買票是不是很好買還可以指定投開票所投票開票出來給我看"},{"start":8612.629,"end":8637.628,"text":"變成這樣喔這一點如何去克服我自己想不出來我也不知道各位先進能不能有提供解決的方案不然我可以買票指定你去我指定的投開票所投票我買幾票你給我開幾票出來未來這個問題怎麼辦這個是我們要去思考的所以我覺得理想是要的但我們是不是漸進"},{"start":8639.794,"end":8662.752,"text":"大家漸進從全國統一的然後或對峙我覺得這個大家可能集思廣益要來思考一下這個是我聽了大家有感而發因為我辦過太多次的選舉從總統到村里長的選舉我都辦過這個可能實務上也要跟大家參考一下好 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簡董事長總經理 陳立青中央銀行 楊金龍總裁歡迎楊總裁業務局 謝鳳英局長外匯局 蔡炯明局長"},{"start":1981.191,"end":2007.656,"text":"經濟研究處草體人處長 歡迎經濟部產業發展署副署長陳國軒政務次長何進昌 何次長抱歉 次長 謝謝國際貿易署主任秘書黃敬軒 黃祖密中小及企業創新署李冠志署長"},{"start":2012.062,"end":2031.526,"text":"能源署陳崇憲陳副署長產業園區管理局曾淑芬副局長投資審議師蘇琦燕代理師長國營事業管理師黃旭輝專門委員投資促進師林素玲專門委員"},{"start":2041.495,"end":2065.239,"text":"農業部綜合規劃師蔡巧蓮市長常務市長杜文珍 杜市長 歡迎 謝謝國際事務司的副市長溫祖康 溫副市長畜牧師的檢任繼政周文林農糧署黃兆興 黃副署長漁業署林鼎榮林副署長"},{"start":2072.842,"end":2089.176,"text":"農經署施尼廷 施副署長動植物防疫檢查署林志憲 主任秘書國發會副主任委員高仙貴 高副主委經濟發展處陳美菊 處長產業發展處蕭振榮 處長"},{"start":2097.27,"end":2119.73,"text":"行政院國家發展基金管理會汪廷安執行秘書 歡迎財團法人中小企業信用保證基金魏銘古魏董事長補充介紹在場委員 林德福林委員陳玉珍陳委員"},{"start":2123.666,"end":2146.274,"text":"我們今日議程安排邀請行政院主席總署陳主席長淑芝財政部莊翠雲部長金管會彭金龍主委中央銀行楊金龍總裁經濟部龔明星國務長出國請假農業部陳俊濟部長也請假國家發展委員會葉主任委員俊賢"},{"start":2147.794,"end":2166.899,"text":"也請假了我們針對台美關稅貿易協議內容對國家整體財經國內產業與就業股會市場與各項民生通膨脹影響與因應策略進行專題報告那我們現在我們請金管會彭主委進行專題報告請檢要說明"},{"start":2178.843,"end":2197.336,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位媒體先進 大家早安陳規委員會邀請金管會就針對台美關稅貿易協議內容對國家整體財經 國內產業及就業 股匯市及與各項民生通膨之影響與因應策略提出報告緊究國內股市之影響因應策略報告 敬請指教"},{"start":2198.757,"end":2222.816,"text":"114年前年台股加權股價指數上漲25.74%台股漲幅介於國際主要股市之間表現相對持穩台美關稅協議於美東時間1月15日完成總結會議協議公布後短期內台股大盤指數漲幅2.64%成交量日均較公布前成長6.67%另外至於該協議公布後短期內持續買超台股"},{"start":2223.556,"end":2247.678,"text":"协议公开后半导体等电子产业对股相关成交比重仍维持核心地位协议确立15%对等关税且不叠加争取到半导体其衍生之最优惠待遇使台厂在国际竞争中处于公平基准有效排除出口成本劣势有助于降低上市会公司营收之不确定性有助市场朝正面发展"},{"start":2248.737,"end":2263.168,"text":"股市短期雖易受國內外金融情勢變化影響,為長期仍將回歸基本面。我國上市櫃公司114年12月底累積營收合計新台幣49.57兆元,較去年同期增加13.78%。"},{"start":2265.821,"end":2293.297,"text":"為歷年同期最高產業具有因應外在環境變化之競爭力及韌性金管會已請證交手機櫃買中心持續注意美國關稅措施情形上市櫃公司財務業務發生重大情勢時應督促依規定及時公開相關訊息並鼓勵舉辦法人說明會充分揭露市場資訊令金管會尊重證券市場運作機制以保障投資人權益及維護整體市場正常運作"},{"start":2293.937,"end":2314.669,"text":"未來金管會將密切持續關注台美關稅貿易協議對國內股市及產業的影響並適時採取相關措施以維護金融市場之健全發展與穩定以及對產業的支持以上報告 敬請指教好 謝謝彭主委那現在請財政部莊部長"},{"start":2326.991,"end":2340.025,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家好今日貴委員會邀集相關部會就這個議題做專題報告那請就涉本部業務部分簡要說明首先就台美貿易概況做一個報告"},{"start":2341.173,"end":2360.118,"text":"美国是我国第114年第一大的出口国也是第四大的进口国那么我国在114年从美国进口是481.6亿美元占进口总值的10%其中农产品占9%品项主要是以大豆玉米及牛肉为主而工业产品"},{"start":2360.918,"end":2370.687,"text":"佔了91%是以CPU以及半導體製造設備零件為主那麼我國114年對美國的出口值是1982.7億美元佔出口總值的39.9%其中農產品佔0.4%那麼主要是以調製食品為主那麼另外工業產品則佔了99.6%是以AI伺服器還有IZ以及"},{"start":2386.94,"end":2406.173,"text":"記憶體等知通視聽產品及電子零組件的貨品為主那麼本部因應美國關稅財政關稅的政策我們所提供的財政的支持措施包含金融支持也就是在本部督導我們輸出入銀行辦理貿易融資利息的減收措施有29家銀行"},{"start":2408.514,"end":2426.361,"text":"包括了我們的輸贏總共超過有3100個營業據點提供各地區廠商申辦便利及即時的資金協助那麼總經費是120億元提供一般企業的年利率減碼一個百分點而每家廠商減收利息最高是100萬中小企業年利率減碼是1.5%個"},{"start":2429.383,"end":2442.893,"text":"1.5那么每家厂商减收利息最高是120万那么从114年的8月7号开办以来到今年的1月16号已经实质协助了2940家的厂商利息减收达到23.9亿"},{"start":2445.39,"end":2468.951,"text":"那么其中中小企业占了84.9%另外也就是对于输出入银行的对于相关的出口厂商提供输出保险费用的减免总经费是20亿元那么对于新增性的费用还有输出保险费用减免最低是以一折来继收减轻厂商的财务负担并且鼓励厂商开发新客户以及新市场"},{"start":2469.591,"end":2496.34,"text":"那么执行以来也已经协助了261家厂商减免的件数达到6459件金额有5700万另外我们的公股银行也对于受美国关税对等关税冲击的企业以从优从速从宽的原则执行相关的资金宽缓的措施包括提供还缴本息及展延借款的借助以减轻企业的资金压力"},{"start":2497.06,"end":2501.443,"text":"在租稅的部分我們根據提供租稅優惠來支持產業的轉型升級包括產創條例裡面對於產業在研發創新促進智慧轉型以及協助新創發展三個面向都提供研發支出投資等多項的優惠措施來協助企業升級轉型另外"},{"start":2517.975,"end":2519.638,"text":"也提供租稅的協助措施包含免加利息的延期跟分期繳稅還有退還營業稅的預付稅額以及展延沖退稅的期限"},{"start":2530.376,"end":2536.16,"text":"此外我們海關對於1105家的保稅業者採取按月匯報免足衣裝複減負這個裝箱單來降低業者的成本那麼海關也對於保稅業者透過保稅智慧服務平台擴大實施遠端集合來減輕業者的法尊成本"},{"start":2551.038,"end":2565.544,"text":"另外報告國安基金的情況那麼前為因應美國對等關稅的衝擊國安基金在一百一四年的四月八號經過委員會決議進場那麼執行安定市場的任務後在一百一十五年的一月十二號委員會討論後獲知共識以"},{"start":2568.325,"end":2577.173,"text":"考量股市交易活絡有序已經沒有國安基金設置及管理條例第八條規定的情形因此決議停止執行安定市場的任務後續國安基金仍然會密切的關注國內外政經情勢變動的情形必要的時候召開會議討論是否授權執行安定市場的任務最後目前台美正就台美對等貿易協定"},{"start":2593.128,"end":2605.812,"text":"進行最後的檢視那麼一旦簽署完成將依法送交大院審議本部除了持續配合相關產業主管機關的需求提供相關資料以利其評估產業的影響並將事情事事實採取相關的因應措施促進國內經濟的穩健發展 以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝莊部長接下來我們請中央銀行楊總裁"},{"start":2640.119,"end":2663.867,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天呈邀前來貴委員會的報告針對台美關稅貿易協定內容對國家整體財經國內產業與就業 股會市場與各項民生通膨值影響與因應策略 自感榮幸以下請就本行業務相關部分提出報告 敬請會事指教"},{"start":2664.767,"end":2688.529,"text":"美國川普總統在2025年4月初宣布針對貿易對手加徵對等關稅事後與主要貿易對手協商要求其貿易對手國降低美國進口商品關稅並擴大對美投資令美國川普總統提及八項非關稅壁壘其中包含匯率議題"},{"start":2690.276,"end":2713.135,"text":"前述非關稅壁壘之匯率議題 系由本行負責與美國財政部單獨進行多次磋商並於上年11月14日發布《台美匯率議題聯合聲明》系據日本、瑞士、南韓、泰國、馬來西亞或第六個與美國財政部發布匯率議題聯合聲明國家"},{"start":2714.015,"end":2738.869,"text":"第二页有关台美关税贸易协议内容对台币汇率资因应以因应策略第三页卦五二台美关税贸易协议对新台币汇率资影响本次台美关税贸易协议要求台湾对美直接投资两千五百亿美元或将提高国内厂商对美元资需求为综合本"},{"start":2739.629,"end":2760.488,"text":"本报告所提四个因素来研判该协议对新台币汇率之影响仍在可控的范围第四页其次要跟各位委员报告本行有能力来维持新台币汇率双向的动态稳定第五页是"},{"start":2761.321,"end":2768.587,"text":"川普總統宣布對等關稅迄今新來幣兌美元匯率升幅居中長期以來新來幣兌美元匯率及波動弧度相對穩定"},{"start":2775.345,"end":2791.227,"text":"第七页 至于台美关税贸易协议内容对各项民生通膨之影响方面第一 国内无输入性通膨压力 台湾通膨力维持缓步回降阻止 过后台湾通膨展望温和"},{"start":2792.507,"end":2811.195,"text":"第八頁掛五三假設未來我國調降美國商品如汽車農產品等進口關稅國內廠商進口成本下降若消費端相關產品價格反應調降將有助國內物價的穩定結餘本行將持續關注台美關稅貿易協議或後續發展"},{"start":2813.696,"end":2840.661,"text":"及其對國內通膨情勢及新台幣匯率的影響若有新台幣匯率過度波動而不利經濟金融穩定之餘時本行將本於職責維持外匯市場秩序此外將依據國內經濟金融情勢之變化適時調整貨幣政策以落實本行維持物價穩定與金融穩定並協助經濟成長之法定職責以上報告敬請各位委員會事指教謝謝"},{"start":2845.632,"end":2848.52,"text":"好 我們謝謝楊總裁接下來請經濟部何次長"},{"start":2858.872,"end":2882.3,"text":"主席各位委員大家好今天承蒙貴委員會的邀請就針對台美關稅貿易協議內容對國家整體財經國內產業與就業及股匯市場還有各項民生通膨的影響與運營策略進行報告敬請各位委員不吝指教台美雙方透過協商在今年的1月16號達成包括台灣對等關稅調降為15%且不疊加"},{"start":2888.862,"end":2914.795,"text":"MFN半導體及半導體衍生品等232關稅取得最優惠的待遇擴大供應鏈投資合作深化台美AI戰略夥伴關係等多項目標台灣適用的對等關稅已經由去年的4月份實施32%疊加MFN調降為15%且不疊加MFN經過本部委託智庫的研究對出口"},{"start":2916.045,"end":2919.688,"text":"美國的金額從-7.5%至-5.75%變為正的0.04%至0.08%產業產值從-1.4%至-1.3%變成正的0.01%至0.02%GDP的影響從-0.78%至-0.3%變成0至0.01%"},{"start":2942.472,"end":2971.371,"text":"工業就業人數影響從負三點六萬人變成正兩百零六人至三百二十九人這一次台灣爭取到百分之十五的對等關稅不疊加替我國的傳統產業營造更有利的競爭環境過去台美間因為沒有簽訂貿易協定所以我國的工業產品出口美國的關稅稅率相較於日本韓國為高現在因為台美簽訂了百分之十五的對等關稅且不疊加的稅率表面上與日韓"},{"start":2972.792,"end":2994.943,"text":"但实际上相对于过往出口的高关税我国业者反而获得相对的优势此外在高科技产业的部分我国也成为全球第一个争取到半导体半导体衍生品关税最优惠待遇的国家同时美方也承诺对台湾企业赴美设厂所需要的设备原物料与零组件给予关税的豁免"},{"start":2995.743,"end":3007.757,"text":"根據本部推估5奈米以下半導體的先進製程2030年時台灣與美國的產能大概是85%對15%而2036年的時候大概是80%對20%顯示未來"},{"start":3010.68,"end":3027.368,"text":"台灣是全世界半導體及AI生產國美國則為全球最重要的AI應用中心兩國將形成策略性夥伴關係未來我國將以台灣模式推動對美投資此模式是在充分與國內高科技"},{"start":3029.108,"end":3038.732,"text":"產業溝通後提出來我國高科技產業投資美國不是移轉而是供應鏈的延伸和擴展創造台美產業經貿雙贏的局勢台美產業長期互補未來美國企業也將加強對我五大信賴產業及生技產業進行投資營造台美雙贏的趨勢"},{"start":3048.095,"end":3072.887,"text":"為及時協助產業因應美國關稅的衝擊行政院在去年9月11號已經通過因應國際情勢強化經濟任性特別預算其中經濟部編列460億元辦理外銷貸款優惠保證加碼中小為企業的發源振興貸款加碼研發轉型補助及爭取海外訂單等支持產業的四大措施此外本部也組成產業競爭力服務團"},{"start":3074.308,"end":3095.444,"text":"以业者的需求提供现场诊断服务也提供AI数位转型金融支持市场拓展等资源补助导入AI工具的应用并搭配人才培训让各产业提升营运效率与竞争力目前台美双方谈判的结果对我国产业影响相较于去年4月初已有明显减缓"},{"start":3096.124,"end":3115.733,"text":"後續為協助產業因應國際局勢經濟部將持續運用韌性特別預算協助產業升級及拓展海外市場以上報告敬請各位委員指正視角謝謝好 謝謝何市長接下來請農業部杜文珍杜文珍 杜市長講一下 講一下"},{"start":3124.525,"end":3143.737,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位與會先進女士先生本人很榮幸代表農業部列席財政委員會就指定的議題做專案報告以價拯救農業部的部分簡要說明如此第一個 美國是我們的農業貿易重要夥伴國家台灣是美國的第八大海外市場"},{"start":3144.858,"end":3167.686,"text":"每年台灣從去年台灣從美國進口的農產品產值大概是43.4億美元那主要進口產品是黃豆玉米小麥跟牛肉那美國也是台灣最重要的農產品出口國家是我國第一大海外市場去年台灣輸美農產品大概有8億美元那主要的產品是花卉水產等"},{"start":3168.286,"end":3187.675,"text":"所以美國對台灣的農產品享有貿易順差35.4億美元台美在農產品是具有互補性的那在對等關稅從去年4月的32%的個別關稅到8月的20%的暫時性關稅一直到今年1月發布的15%關稅且不疊加這對我國農產品的出口確實在"},{"start":3192.937,"end":3209.505,"text":"農糧安全的部分以及對我出口的競爭力確實有極大的注意那以下僅就三個部分來說說明第一個因為美國是台灣農產品的最大市場所以從關稅的15%不疊加對主要的幾個出口的農產品"},{"start":3210.405,"end":3225.059,"text":"比方說台灣的蝴蝶蘭 毛豆 吳郭魚 鱸魚 鬼頭刀這個比例因為是出口占比比較大所以影響比較大那以蝴蝶蘭來說對等關稅加上到15%以在跟我們在美國一樣是競爭對手的荷蘭"},{"start":3225.74,"end":3243.539,"text":"来讲荷兰也是15%与我们相当那至于像加拿大也是主要的竞争对手加拿大的关税是35%那这个我国的15%且不叠加的状况是与主要的竞争伙伴相同而且有优于其他的竞争伙伴在毛豆来讲"},{"start":3244.46,"end":3267.728,"text":"在美國市場與我們競爭最多的其實是中國那中國現在的關稅是47%相較於我國的15%為高所以我想在美國需求應該會轉向於台灣對我們台灣毛豆輸往美國確實是有利的所以在15%關稅不疊加的狀況之下對台灣農產品輸往美國其實是把這個我們跟其他對手國的"},{"start":3269.688,"end":3294.119,"text":"關稅是相當或者是差距的拉近或甚至更優這對我國農產品的出口確實是有極大的幫助即使是這樣我想農業是台灣的根本所以農業部對農戶的支持大概有三個面向一個是金融支持一個是提升產業競爭力一個是開拓多元的市場不管是在金融的支持強化能源體系或是加值"},{"start":3295.419,"end":3321.39,"text":"值得轉型或者是取得驗證標章擴大國內外及行銷的部分我想農業部都會持續來做所以農業發展其實是與國家的安定糧食安全息息相關本部將會持續強化我國農漁畜產業的韌性協助提升產業的競爭力開拓多元市場並維護農漁民權益那對於美方關切的議題我們還是會持續地妥善因應以維持國家利益支持產業發展"},{"start":3322.17,"end":3331.113,"text":"特別是支持國內的消費以及糧食安全經濟國家的整體競爭力農業部會持續與農民站在一起以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝市長接下來我們最後請國發會高副主委"},{"start":3349.342,"end":3370.935,"text":"主席 各位委員 新晉 大家好今天陳孟貴委員邀請本會列席本會請就業管部分提出說明請各位委員不吝指教首先說明對台灣產業跟總體經濟的影響台美關稅談判抵定後其實我們目前占我國總出口大概74%的適用232條款的半導體跟半導體的衍生品的關稅"},{"start":3376.178,"end":3388.506,"text":"我們爭取到關稅最優惠的待遇還有零關稅的配額至於在對等關稅方面包括國內的工具機、機械產品還有一些手工具等我們目前降為15%不結加MFN"},{"start":3391.488,"end":3403.212,"text":"所以我們將與日韓等主要競爭對手國相同居於平等地位同時也拉大了對中國、越南、墨西哥等競爭對手國的競爭優勢所以其實關稅對GDP的影響其實由原來負的0.78%到負的0.3%轉變為0到0.01%"},{"start":3415.255,"end":3420.617,"text":"至於中長期的動態觀點來說這次在台美談判中間政府以台灣模式支持產業自主投資有助於台灣產業的延伸企業的全球佈局將更精準地對整中端市場擴大產值提升企業獲利"},{"start":3434.1,"end":3441.002,"text":"稅收成長同時也可以帶動國內的投資而且美方已經承諾將建立雙向的投資機制並擴大投資我國的五大信貸產業因此我們可以覺得我們可以發揮台美貿易夥伴的關係有助於企業對外實力的延伸鞏固台灣在半導體的競爭優勢有利於經濟的穩定成長"},{"start":3462.308,"end":3472.797,"text":"所以近期國際的投資機構紛紛要上調台灣今年的經濟成長預測包括新野瑞銀、星展等金融機構多分別上升到4.4到4.8以多軍教主計總數的3.54為高"},{"start":3477.721,"end":3484.443,"text":"事實上面臨全球的地緣政治風險以及全球供應鏈逐步邁入第二波的重組跟移轉政府將有三個面向來強化台灣的產業競爭優勢協助傳統產業的轉型升級以及推動全球的多元佈局來鞏固台灣的競爭優勢在強化台灣競爭優勢裡面政府將從影資纜財跟擴建設三管旗下"},{"start":3506.83,"end":3534.044,"text":"協助企業深耕台灣同時我們也推動AI新十大還有五大新代產業來鞏固台灣在半導體還有這些航太無人機等的新興產業的競爭優勢第二個我們要在運用應應國際情勢強化經濟社會的特別預算還有鍾曉微的多元振興方案以及AI新十大建設我們希望協助石化跟工具機產業"},{"start":3535.405,"end":3546.195,"text":"還有機密機械切入半導體跟AI伺服器的供應業同時成為航太、安控及無人載具製造的一環同時也打造傳統產業成為隱形的冠軍讓國內的各個產業都可以享受AI紅利讓產業的發展各為均衡"},{"start":3555.263,"end":3578.98,"text":"在於推動全球多元佈局下我想經濟部已分別在捷克、日本、美國等設立台灣貿易投資中心支持台商的海外落地的佈局同時我們也將透過區域貿易協定等開闊歐洲跟東協等市場打造台灣成為一個經濟的部落國以上報告進行指教好 謝謝高副主委"},{"start":3583.666,"end":3611.979,"text":"另外就行政院主席總署還有行政院經貿談判辦公室的就請貴委員參考書面的資料他們現在開始詢答先做以下的宣告每位出席委員發言時間8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間5分鐘今日上午10點截止發言登記現在依據發登記順序請登記地位的林德福委員質詢"},{"start":3629.676,"end":3640.408,"text":"謝謝主席與會各列席官員還有各位媒體記者 理事先生各位同仁是不是請我們中央銀行楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":3660.315,"end":3678.268,"text":"總裁你好我請教因為美國宣布對台灣關稅降至15%那台灣承諾由企業自主投資2500億的美元那政府信用保證2500億元換取對等關稅有20%進一步降至15%並且不疊加稅率取得日韓歐盟相同的最"},{"start":3689.735,"end":3709.784,"text":"會國的待遇那總裁當行政院對這次關稅協議談判結果表示滿意的同時那我請問你認為是不是有哪些產業例如像國內的汽車產業可能因為這次關稅談判造成市場開放"},{"start":3711.044,"end":3723.89,"text":"而發生負面的衝擊影響對於這些可能因為市場開放受程度不等的這些衝擊的產業政府到底有哪些因應的對策那個總裁你的看法呢報告委員 這個題目應該是要來請教因為我說實在的那個經濟部 經貿辦公室 是"},{"start":3740.445,"end":3756.573,"text":"最起碼你們要說清楚講明白那個停一下他那個經貿辦公室沒有人來有執密那個 執密來市長或者那個經貿辦公室的代表還有經濟部 來你們要說清楚講明白"},{"start":3759.053,"end":3776.77,"text":"好跟委員報告那這一次因應這個美國登等關稅我們在立法院的支持下我們經濟部也編列了四百六十億元的這個任期特別預算來協助我們產業因應這一次美國關稅那大概有分成幾項幾項措施包括貸款還有"},{"start":3777.53,"end":3801.85,"text":"出国的加码保证还有转型升级的补助以及市场拓销的补助大概就这四项我们来因应让这些传统产业它能够来做因应因为现在最严重就是什么因为你经过这九个多月那你包括我们的很多传统产业包括工具区 水五金 脚踏车 蝴蝶兰等等"},{"start":3803.252,"end":3823.972,"text":"因為有很多的客戶已經流失了經過這九個多月因為日本韓國跟我們不一樣又是我們鄰近的國家那這些衝擊到底我們他們到底可不可以回復因為已經移轉客戶了你就是回復15%不疊加人家不一定會要你的東西"},{"start":3825.293,"end":3853.835,"text":"你有什么看法根文报告上个礼拜五卓院长也到台南去跟汽车零组件的业者来座谈其中有一家业者他是专门做汽车改装件的零组件一听到就说我们的关税已经谈成失误不叠加他们的董事长马上飞到美国去接单所以这代表说我们这样的一个谈判其实对订单的回流是有帮助的那个去接单问题是"},{"start":3856.087,"end":3863.092,"text":"你像那些傳統產業包括汽車到底汽車有沒有確定在這個裡面"},{"start":3866.078,"end":3887.307,"text":"這個零組件的部分我們現在爭取到的是15%不疊加那相較於我們的其他競爭對手國來講我們有相當大的這個稅率的優惠我們原先的稅率是汽車零組件是26.25%現在一下子降到15%跟歐盟日本跟韓國的這樣的一個基礎"},{"start":3888.227,"end":3905.632,"text":"是一樣的所以這就剛我提到就為什麼董事長急於跑到美國再去跟客戶洽談訂單就是因為稅率大幅降低有利於我們這樣的一個條件那以前報導阿拉斯加液化天然氣管線需要耗資440億的美元"},{"start":3909.693,"end":3937.767,"text":"這個美國川普總統也希望日本韓國跟台灣一起來參與那我請問依你們的看法因為畢竟中油是你們管的這個阿拉斯加天然氣這個傳言到底是在規劃中還是有沒有在這一次整個承諾裡面來扣除到底有沒有要說清楚講明白跟委員報告這個其實中油已經跟這個阿拉斯加那一家公司已經有簽了一個簽了這個有沒有從裡面扣除"},{"start":3938.567,"end":3953.544,"text":"那你總不能一直加上去啊當然我們是希望就是說未來這個整個油氣的供應要能夠穩定啦所以我們希望從這個美國的這個阿拉斯加那一條航道是相對來講是比較安全的"},{"start":3954.045,"end":3982.358,"text":"那再來就是說 問題是不要賠熱婦人又責兵這個裡面你不要說我們跟他這次談沒有把這個納進去那個對我們來講 講實在話那個實在不應該啦 對不對你不能我們身為國會的議員 民意代表就是幫人民來勘請政府的荷包不是讓你們為所欲為但是這次這樣簽法以後講實在話 很多民間大家都在講"},{"start":3983.359,"end":3989.126,"text":"講的你是陪了夫人又責兵因為我們跟人家的軍具體那個一比較啊 落差太大了"},{"start":3989.978,"end":3999.925,"text":"對不對我相信你們也很清楚是跟我們報告其實中友其實他們還在評估當中也就是說如果這個投資具可行性的話我想後面還是會有"},{"start":4020.178,"end":4043.427,"text":"我們為什麼什麼都要聽人家的對不對我們要有自主性啊你像那個韓國日本甚至於現在歐洲對這個川普很多作為啊他們都不能接受對不對不是人家講於我們作善人家對不對講什麼我們就配合什麼那個講實在話你們身為政府的官員應該要有原則有尊嚴啊"},{"start":4045.507,"end":4065.539,"text":"我們會跟美方那邊來爭取如果真的有做成投資投資這樣的決定的話那絕對會是加到我們的投資的額度裡面來我是希望說你們要站在人民的角度不是人家講什麼我們什麼都配合我請國發會國發會也來列舉我們高副主委"},{"start":4072.95,"end":4074.415,"text":"那个总裁请回吧在"},{"start":4079.465,"end":4106.575,"text":"國發會這個關稅協議中的2500億信用保證是由國發會主責針對這項的信用保證這個信保的機制國發會提出4點來規劃說明整個融資總額度保證對象專款來源以出資方式打算由國發基金來出資並邀請公股民營銀行來共同參與 那我請問"},{"start":4107.515,"end":4113.627,"text":"主委 那個國發會要如何來契合這些到海外投資的產業要如何"},{"start":4115.656,"end":4137.427,"text":"跟委員報告所有申請的企業都必須要跟融資保證中心來提供他所有申請企業的相關資料我們也會設置一個融資保證的委員會到時候融資保證基金合約相關的文件之後都會送到融資保證委員會來進行融資保證的評估"},{"start":4140.669,"end":4164.37,"text":"所以我們會確保我們整個的將來的對銀行對企業的受信其實我們有一套的所謂的減核的這些行政的程序因為那個對比經濟部中小企業信用這個信保基金的組織執掌本席對於國發會是否有足夠的能力來控管海外融資的這些投資過程與結果"},{"start":4166.816,"end":4188.708,"text":"講實在話本席是感到存疑啦再者海外投資後續如果發生個案的追長對於信用保證下的這個債權查封執行會不會因為時空差距而發生追長無門的結果會不會不會我們會有一我們會有一套審核的機制剛才已經有跟委員報告過"},{"start":4190.008,"end":4211.977,"text":"因為畢竟國發基金過去執行率並不好尤其有有甚者還頻頻踩雷我請問跟委員報告我們到時候要成立一個國家融資保證中心其實我們國發基金只是擔任出資方"},{"start":4213.677,"end":4229.684,"text":"目前國家如果要依照現行的國家融資保證機制的話國家融資保證中心的執行單位是輸出入銀行因為國外基金優化投錢投後管理的做法會不會落實在這些海外"},{"start":4231.767,"end":4255.195,"text":"投資的產業上實際上要怎麼樣去操作海外的集合我認為這個很重要你也來做一個說明我想謝謝委員的提醒我想因為我們不管是國家融資保證基金或融資保證委員會這相關的機制的話我們都一定會在後續研擬的過程中間我們會審慎的處理包括委員講的投錢"},{"start":4256.795,"end":4274.517,"text":"投前的評估投中投後等等的相關的審查信用這些保證對象的一些信用的徵信我們都會審慎的處理請委員放心在面對美國要求台灣付出如此龐大的投資金額相當於15兆台幣"},{"start":4275.598,"end":4302.955,"text":"五年中央政府的總預算規模台灣半導體產業與相關上下游的這些供應鏈將大量資金移往美國未來可能會排擠整個台灣產地這個產業的升級資源對美國投資大幅增加對台灣投資大幅度的減少將不利整個台灣未來的發展那我國政府"},{"start":4303.855,"end":4321.956,"text":"包括你們談判代表卻沒有告訴大家美國的要求完成投資期限在何時這個讓大家也十分憂心因為你沒有實現的那請我們經濟部包括經貿辦公室你們要做跟大家做說明"},{"start":4322.897,"end":4340.522,"text":"各位委員報告其實200億美金的這個是企業的自主投資而且是應客戶的要求也會分年逐步的推動那其實我想我們知道說其實以台積電來說現在已經成為全球第六大的企業了"},{"start":4341.262,"end":4357.235,"text":"他其實面對AI的基礎建設強勁需求他其實一定要做全球佈局目前我們75%的營收台積電來自於北美客戶所以他在美國設廠其實應該是某個程度上也可以紓解台灣資源難以支應的這些困擾而且我們這次是雙向投資所以到時候"},{"start":4364.56,"end":4375.644,"text":"美國其實也會來投資台灣的AI還有這些半導體還有五大信賴產業所以我們認為其實用動態的觀點來看其實我們覺得200億美元對企業的自主投資其實反而有助於台美所謂戰略夥伴關係的鞏固其實應該不會對台灣所謂產生對台灣的投資其實有減損的這些效應然後另外的200億的"},{"start":4394.492,"end":4419.983,"text":"2500億的信用保證額度跟前面那個是完全不一樣的這只是我們用信用保證的方式支持金融機構提供最高到2500億的企業受信額度所以我們政府提出的包括我們國發基金跟公營跟民營企業我們提出的所謂的保證專款最多我想副院長有講到是62.5億到100億之間"},{"start":4423.164,"end":4437.905,"text":"我希望最重要就是我們身為民意代表國會議員就是要幫人民勘請荷包你們那個大原則一定要保住不是人家講義你們作善現在民眾的感覺就這樣子"},{"start":4438.806,"end":4459.34,"text":"對不對 為所欲為那你沒有把人民放在眼裡沒有把 我們是希望說經濟好起來兩岸和平你不是人家講什麼我們就去配合什麼我們一定會確保台灣的競爭優勢那台灣在全球供應鏈的重要的角色請委員放心好 謝謝好 謝謝林德福委員接下來請吳秉瑞委員質詢"},{"start":4473.635,"end":4482.406,"text":"主席麻煩請行政院經貿談判辦公室徐執行秘書請徐執行秘書還有經濟部何次長何次長 請"},{"start":4489.239,"end":4512.876,"text":"委員好我是很敬佩各個委員在這邊很努力問政但是你們回答的資訊如果他原來提出來的數字是不正確的你們也要趕距離力爭確實跟他回答投資都是2500億美金不是5000億換算成台幣的話就不是15兆台幣"},{"start":4514.295,"end":4538.149,"text":"而且裡面台積電已經本來就承諾投資1650億美金了嘛對不對所以剩下的擴大其實是剩多少其實才剩下850億嘛這個還沒有算環球金沒有算鴻海沒有算偽創這些現在正要前往美國投資的這些企業所以把它講成這麼大"},{"start":4542.722,"end":4572.442,"text":"我跟你說啦監督問證是很好啦不要背於事實啦我們還是要基於在事實的基礎上來問證我講的是不是對的有哪一個地方不正確你請你給我指出來是委員講的都對齁那因為五千億不能加總來看啦兩千五百億的信用保證魏董事長在這個地方魏董事長請你上台跟我們講一下現在中小信保齁在台灣如果你要融資兩千五百億你那個槓桿的比例大概是多少"},{"start":4572.722,"end":4573.522,"text":"跟委員報告那我們信保基金保證的成數是13.77就是現在事實上操作是13.77對 那如果說是以這樣來講的話2500億美金的話是181.55億好 請你回座好 謝謝所以"},{"start":4603.444,"end":4620.821,"text":"要信用保證2500億的美金一位董事長如果以在國內操作的比例來講是100多億美金其實我們要融資這些都是國際知名的大廠你怕台積電跟你倒賬嗎你怕鴻海跟你倒賬嗎"},{"start":4622.378,"end":4649.036,"text":"所以將來這些投資的信用保證它其實的風險的係數可以做到比台灣的中小信保在台灣對中小微企業的信用保證還要低的這個還要高的這個槓桿因為它導的風險更低所以你們才會說60到100億美金之內就夠了對不對然後他一直跟你宣傳說你就是政府要花2500億"},{"start":4650.777,"end":4654.469,"text":"那為什麼講了這麼多次他們還是硬不聽"},{"start":4655.751,"end":4660.292,"text":"因為他是中稅的人叫不行啦他要這樣講嘛台灣的股市剛剛破三萬兩千點啦還在跟你說台灣經濟不好啦民不聊生啦你去機場看一看排隊出國的人喔都擠滿了好這一個講不贏他說M型化社會啦很慘的人很慘啦很好的人很好啦一個再強再棒全世界經濟第一名的社會喔都會有很可憐的"},{"start":4684.608,"end":4711.609,"text":"弱勢者這無法避免那我們台灣就是作為一個中間政策上面中間偏左我們的社會福利努力在做社會安全網把所有的最可憐的人都要承接起來但是不要睜著眼睛說瞎話這一個經貿的談判喔在我來看應該給予鼓勵了台灣因為被中共打壓很多國家沒有辦法跟我們簽FTA"},{"start":4713.359,"end":4739.745,"text":"沒有辦法去參加一些中共阻撓的這些所謂的東南亞經貿組織各類的經貿組織包括我們一直想要參加的泛太平洋的經濟協定都一直被中國共產黨阻撓被中國阻撓台灣的處境特別艱難這跟哪一黨執政無關啊以前國民黨也有執政過八年的期間中國也要不讓你參加嘛"},{"start":4741.087,"end":4757.054,"text":"那所以我們本來的關稅就比人家高啊台灣的企業家非常地了不起耶在逆境當中我們仍然有辦法跟人家去拼一場短提著一個皮包走全世界這是台灣精神嘛那這一次談判完之後我們的關稅降到跟日本跟韓國一樣韓國搓在蛋啦"},{"start":4767.418,"end":4796.218,"text":"因為台灣的中小企業韓國是沒有辦法比的韓國都是幾個大集團大財團嘛他們的中小企業所以美國現在向台灣取經要複製台灣科學園區的經驗這也是這今天談判中的一環我們台積電在美國投資他們把我們講成說是掏空台灣這是天大的笑話台積電在台灣的哪一個廠有關掉有沒有關掉的"},{"start":4797.861,"end":4819.471,"text":"那市長有沒有關掉 台積電在台灣的廠有沒有關掉的八維沒有不但沒有關掉 一年還一直增加 還要增加很多廠對不對那請問廠一直蓋一直增加 沒有關掉任何一間投靠台灣什麼東西啊我這間公司一直不停的擴大從全世界後面的排名一直往前衝現在衝到全世界市值第六大"},{"start":4820.97,"end":4833.678,"text":"就代表我生意越做越大我的產能越來越大所以我台灣也在增加我在德國我在中國我在日本我在美國都要增加社廠嘛"},{"start":4835.339,"end":4862.997,"text":"那個這個是壯大的過程中必須要增加投資的地方怎麼會掏空台灣呢如果今天他移到美國是台灣要關廠台灣這些產能要收掉然後台灣的工人都失業你勉強可以講說這樣對台灣的經濟不利你台灣已經飽和做不出來了都滿滿滿了那一部分到別的國家去生產"},{"start":4865.075,"end":4882.385,"text":"為什麼就是掏空台灣呢 這個邏輯我不懂啊那被人家這樣攻擊 你們都沒有辦法用很大的聲量很清楚的聲音 讓國人能夠了解然後因為現在小眾媒體 現在網路一直給你抹黑 一直給你造謠啊所以我每次看到說什麼掏空台灣"},{"start":4887.435,"end":4913.512,"text":"很奇怪我跟你講我有一些做工程營造的朋友跟我講說現在工人很難請的原因就是因為這些電子大廠他們在設廠的時候都在趕進度他寧願給兩倍三倍的工資把這些建築做這個營造的工人請去所以讓我們的公共工程還有我們的普通的營造都缺工那奇怪了他掏空為什麼一直在蓋廠"},{"start":4915.7,"end":4923.725,"text":"次長你跟我回答啊為什麼一直在蓋廠然後講說是掏空呢是 我跟委員報告其實如同委員講到的就是其實台積電在台灣的投資大過於任何在其他國家的投資而且剛剛委員講得很對因為其實現在我跟你講相信政府的都在股票市場都賺大錢了台積電它的整個產業鏈很長所以許多的包括廠物這個半導設備 材料還有許多的這些化學品協力廠商也要去啊不然他才"},{"start":4945.52,"end":4968.235,"text":"非常多的工業類語錄精湛一定要讓他做的產品我舉個例子這些做無塵室的是要提供台積電的這些設備那台積電在美國設廠的部分他當然也要跟著去就近來做比較方便溝通也方便嘛所以是打群架的台灣的企業是打群架的跟韓國那種集團是不一樣的嘛"},{"start":4969.792,"end":4995.113,"text":"那總共光台積電就已經承諾1650了而且這個投資也沒有期限啊這是一個承諾錢會沒用啦就是說我將來要來你這邊投資多少也沒有期間也沒有期限不知道把它講成什麼台灣要完蛋了我跟你說相信政府今天台灣股市又創新高了破三萬二了相信政府的都賺錢了"},{"start":4996.927,"end":5010.513,"text":"你還講說台積電會跌到五百塊以下的喔不知道他有沒有去放空他既然他的預測這麼高明那不害死人當初聽他的話賣掉台積電的現在是不是都賠都沒有賺到啦甚至趕快賣了是不是都賠啦所以不要在那邊胡言亂語政治問政要基於事實在那邊亂講常常嘴巴在那邊掛起來就名不聊生台灣經濟要完蛋了怎麼樣怎麼樣我看要完蛋的是中國啦"},{"start":5027.475,"end":5047.171,"text":"中國的經濟一塌糊塗莫名其妙當初馬政府時代鼓勵大膽西進害死很多人那個才叫真正叫掏空台灣我們投資台灣我們返鄉計畫我們壯大台灣之後我們就有能力投資全世界因為我們產能的需要要擴大"},{"start":5048.608,"end":5057.815,"text":"這對台灣是大好事啊台灣去年對美國出超1500億美金耶這站在國際貿易上啊如果美國要對付你的話這很正當的理由啊但是人家美國其實對我們沒有不好這個投資是雙向的就算我們去美國投資台積電輝達來台灣投資Google來台灣投資這個一大堆的美國企業來台灣投資他為什麼不講說是掏空美國"},{"start":5077.993,"end":5094.252,"text":"去哪裡投資就是掏空哪個國家他的母國那這樣的話輝達是掏空美國嗎因為輝達要來台灣設這個企業總部啊他不是在台北市嗎現在不是談了東亞的企業總部不是在那邊嗎那算不算輝達掏空美國"},{"start":5096.818,"end":5122.519,"text":"所以我是覺得台灣要趕快進行這個工作一年1500億的出鈔而且今年度看起來還會再繼續擴大一直擴大下去美國會受不了所以重要的東西趕快跟美國採購大宗物資趕快跟美國採購能夠行有餘力可以投資去美國投資做貿易帳金融帳的平衡不然台灣的這個貿易出鈔這麼多"},{"start":5126.403,"end":5137.173,"text":"對全世界的國際貿易來講是對人家不公平啦光只要想自己都不要換位思考站在美國人的角度你一年賺我這麼多錢你是用這種態度對待我所以我是覺得我個人將心比心我覺得美國對我們是因為很需要台灣這一個夥伴所以他對我們這個條件是給的很好喔在我來看啦"},{"start":5150.852,"end":5160.564,"text":"那問一個最嚴重的問題 萬一本院沒有通過這個協定會怎麼樣 萬一啊不是啦 你就照實回答嘛 我就不邀你 我就問你說萬一通不過會怎麼辦嘛"},{"start":5173.88,"end":5196.32,"text":"像委員報告因為這個協定要能夠生效是要雙方都完成內部程序之後才能生效所以如果我方沒有辦法通過的話我方就沒有辦法完成我方的內部程序我看你們在說不完喔你是怕得罪誰啊說實話會有什麼問題沒有通過台灣大災難啦我跟你講這個東西沒有通過"},{"start":5201.124,"end":5224.506,"text":"回到以前的疊加關稅跟以前的條件一樣以前罵得要死說那個條件那麼差現在條件要變比較好還要不要考慮要不要簽還說這個是掏空台灣我跟你講 全國人民真的眼睛在看所有的產業真的眼睛在看沒有過的話 台灣倒大霉啦這工業啦 大家加油喔 謝謝"},{"start":5227.321,"end":5228.263,"text":"好 謝謝吳秉瑞委員 謝謝接下來請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":5253.047,"end":5271.164,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國發會的高副主委好請高副主委央行的楊總裁金管會的陳主委還有經濟部的何次長何次長還有剛才信保基金的魏董事長魏董事長委員好"},{"start":5276.731,"end":5286.656,"text":"我先請教魏董事長一句話就好了剛才我沒有聽得很清楚信保基金保證成數保證幾倍"},{"start":5288.55,"end":5312.93,"text":"目前我們保證的倍數是13.77倍多少13.77倍所以換算回來如果政府要保證2500億美金的話那就是要多少準備181.55億左右差不多是換算成台幣多少"},{"start":5314.17,"end":5316.571,"text":"我們對關稅談判 關稅的談判代表可以上來"},{"start":5337.915,"end":5365.478,"text":"我在好幾個場合都肯定20加N降為15%可是我們是監督我們是提醒要付什麼代價這個從現在執政黨從這個行政院長以降包括立委都講喔不是5000啦是2500啦我用美國大家在喜歡抱大腿的美國商業部長盧特尼克說"},{"start":5367.193,"end":5382.922,"text":"台灣要投資美國五千億這是頭期款最終的目標要打造一座大型半導體科學園區這原汁原味魯特尼克講的話這這麼簡單直接投資兩千五百億"},{"start":5389.619,"end":5402.989,"text":"然後鼓勵企業去投資2500億政府保證如果倒的話政府要出但不管怎麼樣對於美國 盧特尼克 美國人來講台灣total就是投資5000億美金就這麼簡單啦副主委 我剛剛講的話有沒有錯"},{"start":5410.175,"end":5420.704,"text":"第一個 前面的2500億是企業的自主投資後面的2500億是融資我們有保證的專款所以加起來就是5000億有什麼錯呢這句話有什麼錯可是它性質是不一樣的性質不一樣的都是 dollar dollar dollar 美金"},{"start":5429.531,"end":5446.505,"text":"一二十大了啦來那你剛才講的喔我剛才特別講的中小型新跑基金他是十三多倍一般來講我們保證持續大概十倍啦如果十倍就是要準備兩百五十億美金所以有媒體提到說要準備八千億那"},{"start":5449.178,"end":5470.968,"text":"你剛才說要準備六十幾億可是按照剛才信訪基金外董事長講的中小信訪基金你就說準備一百三十幾億美金台幣大概五千億左右一百七十幾億吧台幣大概五千億左右啦齁啊 為什麼差這麼多啦齁好 這個完全是看倍數啦齁你到底要保證多少倍啦齁要保證多少倍那我就請教你"},{"start":5477.457,"end":5483.602,"text":"錢從什麼地方來不管60億美金啊 100億美金啊170億美金 錢從什麼地方來跟委員報告我們的估算到保證的專款是62.5億到100億之間呢基本上我們是考慮到其實賦予的都是60多億 你就要是保證成數25倍了這會不會太流利跟委員報告 基本上是"},{"start":5502.916,"end":5528.691,"text":"保證的倍數因為我們赴美的都是比較大型的保證的倍數是15到20倍然後保證的成數是50到60射算出來的金額你查一下信保基金還有榮保基金這裡面沒有人在這麼多因為中小企業就像信仰基金是中小企業所以我們赴美投資都是比較中大型的企業所以保證的成數可以倍數可以比較高"},{"start":5529.991,"end":5554.876,"text":"沒關係這裡面有講喔那你這個錢就算六十幾億好了就兩千億台幣嘛對不對兩千億台幣從什麼地方來基本上我們會分五期因為企業的投資升級什麼時候到位啦前什麼時候到位我們基本上我們會希望前什麼時候到位你回答我因為我時間有限今年會到位今年全部到位不是分五期的第一期所以第一期大概五百億"},{"start":5557.177,"end":5573.872,"text":"如果62.5億來說的話我們大概就是就是兩千億嘛十幾億所以就是三百多億三四百億啦對 三四百億的台幣今年的什麼時候 年底今年 今年我們會行政程序來辦理然後我們應該是今年第一期會成立這個要不要經過立法院啊"},{"start":5575.053,"end":5584.497,"text":"因為基本上是由國發基金還有公民銀行共同的出資我想不涉及到特別預算或相關你要叫銀行來講到來 我請教金管會的彭主委"},{"start":5588.888,"end":5611.516,"text":"你們保險公司會不會被拜託來加入這個融資的金額結果保險公司跟銀行是它的屬性不太一樣比如說保險公司它現在當然它也可以做擔保放款根據保險法但是根據保險法的規定它不能擔任擔保機構對 它根據保險法它要有十組擔保品"},{"start":5612.893,"end":5623.903,"text":"對 他就是按照保險法146之3所以他不可以加入這個機制是不是他可以做有國家保證機制的擔保放款"},{"start":5625.014,"end":5631.777,"text":"他本來就保險法明訂的來來來 我再請教高副主委你這裡面有沒有規劃保險受險公司很有錢啊有沒有請他們出錢因為我們這個國家信用保證機制是循我們現行的保證機制的方式只是我們另外會成立一個專責的委員會來那個那我們目前的國家信用保證機制事實上就是由國發基金跟八個公股銀行共同的出資"},{"start":5649.864,"end":5661.053,"text":"然後再做再放所以我們將來會希望以循現在的你的國發基金要出多少錢我們國發基金我們要看要出多少錢兩千億裡面要出多少錢不是兩千億吧我剛才說的第一期的我們到時候就要看公股銀行跟民營銀行他入股的比重所以目前沒有要找保險公司沒有沒有要找保險公司有沒有要找央行"},{"start":5677.791,"end":5686.293,"text":"不會找央行 不會找央行喔 是不可以用台積電股票指壓喔 不會好 我再請教央行的 來賴委員早總裁啊 是現在企業直接投資2500億了 是會不會動到你 會不會跟你買外匯會不會以目前來講 我們的市場的外匯 外幣資金非常充裕"},{"start":5706.667,"end":5728.366,"text":"大概多少我們在報告裡面也有講到大概多少嗎 你跟我們講你看我們存款就有目前的存款就有三千一百多億三千一百億但是他都拿出來嗎打死我不相信我家裡有三千萬好了我家裡有三千萬全部拿去拿出來我當然不要"},{"start":5731.968,"end":5747.536,"text":"你看看那個委員你看我們一年的順差都是一千你看對美國就一千五百億了每年這個是流量存量跟流量真的是沒有問題一千五百億跑到央行的外匯存底有沒有"},{"start":5752.762,"end":5760.125,"text":"你說1000對 順差不會啦因為供需他沒有啊他會供需我們中央銀行只會是在市場調節我們有買也有賣所以基本上應該是如果說有增加也增加一點點如果有減少也減少一點點一般企業不是對外賺的錢"},{"start":5774.25,"end":5776.936,"text":"那就跟你換台幣 不然他怎麼…不…他們很大一部分都是放在他們的外幣存款而且有一部分都放在國外比例多少"},{"start":5785.745,"end":5804.566,"text":"他這個比例多少我就不曉得我剛剛也就跟現在就存款在我們台灣就3100億所以都不會東單外匯存底就對了基本上以目前我們來評估是大體上應該短期之內是不會應該是不會最近"},{"start":5807.436,"end":5814.259,"text":"黃金一直漲啊是人家好幾個委員是叫很久已經叫你買黃金你都買不到結果現在國外來講的話這個黃金的人家佔的美國黃金高達80%因為全世界現在對美元的信心動搖啊開始覺得儲備啊所以現在央行全世界的央媽都在買黃金沒有沒有事實上我跟委員報告"},{"start":5835.447,"end":5849.656,"text":"事實上這一波黃金之所以上漲主要還是在民間不是在央行央行的話大概是五個國家的央行會去買第一個是俄羅斯第二個是中國大陸第三個是印度第四個是土耳其第五個是波蘭就大概這五個央行其他國家你看韓國 日本 歐洲都沒有"},{"start":5863.044,"end":5882.101,"text":"所以不是主要的央行去買所以最近這半年來我們的央行都沒有買一塊錢黃金沒有所以還是需要美金我想我們diversify我們是分散的八成是美金基本上是這樣美元資產我們隨時動態的調整"},{"start":5887.469,"end":5908.415,"text":"好 最後一個問題我請教你IMF世紀全球金融穩定報告特別點名台灣對美元匯率負險程度明顯高於外匯市場可以承受的交易深度如果按照美國我們美元計價的資產我們大概3兆美金台灣就有錢3兆美金除以匯市的"},{"start":5917.714,"end":5920.38,"text":"每個月的交易量大概45倍韓國25倍 日本20倍德國 法國 義大利各為數"},{"start":5927.247,"end":5930.75,"text":"這個請問你會不會 我們央行看到這個報告有什麼心裡有什麼反應我們也有 委員說的我們看到這個報告我們一直覺得MF對這個他是誤解了誤解對 誤解他說是45倍事實上我們如果說根據我們的計算的話我們是差不多大概20倍左右所以你嗤之以鼻"},{"start":5951.944,"end":5959.426,"text":"所以我們也不會覺得說我們不會非常緊張我們不會很非常緊張我們有一點異己我們不會小看IMF只是說我要跟委員報告我跟委員報告IMF基本上對有些時候它都對我們台灣的那個什麼那個經濟成長有些時候它的focus都是"},{"start":5975.191,"end":5984.038,"text":"都是差很多所以也就是說他對我們實際的情況沒有非常了解上一次我們就有啊這一次不必要因為我們覺得很Easy所以就瞧不起這個報告"},{"start":5993.585,"end":6006.27,"text":"不是這樣子因為我們不會緊張差不多這個意思啦比試搶不起這個不必要比試這個不必要比試我們參考參考參考齁所以他錯了45倍錯的是是是25倍正常的勒是錯的好啦好 謝謝好 謝謝賴司保委員總裁請回齁好 接下來我們請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":6030.122,"end":6043.501,"text":"謝謝主席有請金貿談判辦公室徐執銘還有包括我們楊航楊總裁楊航楊總裁經濟部次長經濟部何次長還有金管會主委彭主委彭主委"},{"start":6046.974,"end":6064.955,"text":"我先就教於徐執密是委員號我提一個問題當初我們關稅談判然後要提高美國要提高我們關稅最主要理由就在於說貿易逆差對不對當初2024年的貿易逆差的時候我們貿易逆差是700多億"},{"start":6066.336,"end":6086.676,"text":"到2025的時候是1500多億當初2024年的時候700多億我們排行在對美貿易逆差是第7名可是變成2025的時候1500多億的時候預計提升到第4名貿易逆差的問題越來越嚴重排名越來越前面為什麼我們原先的關稅會從25%降到15%用不疊加 為什麼"},{"start":6091.716,"end":6111.101,"text":"這是一個談判的結果你不是貿易逆差太多嗎要把你提高關稅那為什麼貿易逆差變成double了排行7又變成4那為什麼那個關稅會降低你們回答本席這個問題像委員報告其實這個就是一個談判的結果談判技巧那麼好就純粹談判嗎你先回去好了那我請總裁你們告訴我為什麼"},{"start":6118.691,"end":6121.516,"text":"我個人的看法我最喜歡聽你的看法我個人認為就是說因為美國需要我們的產品"},{"start":6128.038,"end":6150.21,"text":"講到重點了 美國需要我們什麼需要我們的產品所以經濟安全不是只是經濟安全嘛他背後思考的是一個國家安全不是嗎對 你看總裁點頭了你的報告書徐殖民你的報告書裡頭就寫到經濟安全就國家安全答案你就寫在裡頭啦所以從國家安全的角度來說我們就來看嘛"},{"start":6151.07,"end":6178.591,"text":"如果是國家安全的話你看為什麼他們要跟日本的造船業合作那為什麼又叫我們半導體的這相關產業去投資美國關鍵就是在國安嘛 是不是好 那我們就從國家安全的角度來思考這個問題台灣的整體的整個經濟戰略當中我們過去是從西進現在是到東進過去是朝西的兩岸共同市場現在是朝東的兩岸共同市場總裁這樣是不是有這樣的走向有"},{"start":6179.071,"end":6191.466,"text":"有嘛 有這樣走向嘛我們創造了一個不同的兩岸的共同市場嘛從西進垮到東進嘛你去看從2011年對中的部分呢貿易的金額高達143對美才7.3"},{"start":6195.21,"end":6208.28,"text":"現在降到對中的部分只降到剩下3成 少了7成而且對外不到10%對美國增加到20倍很清楚啊 從西往東嘛從西往東"},{"start":6209.502,"end":6235.918,"text":"但是我个人还是担心从两个数字来说我们对中国贸易的比例是一直对中国的部分的比例是一直下降然后金管会也一直在管有关于金融的部分的曝险一直在降低我就想要就较于这个总裁如果就这两个数字来看的话中国老是在提起说要废掉那个EFA然后一直想要做一个经贸性的制裁"},{"start":6236.858,"end":6247.927,"text":"他現在到哪個點我們認為他沒有威脅感那個總裁你有沒有評估過我還是沒有很了解那個委員的問題"},{"start":6249.928,"end":6271.666,"text":"就是說他常常在威脅我們就是說我們因為投資很多或者什麼 曝險很高會不會我們投資太多 曝險太高用經貿來做我們威脅來制裁的這個可能性要降到什麼階段才會讓我們沒有感受到威脅你有沒有瞭解這個數字就說 沒有你沒有 那我請今晚會主委"},{"start":6272.927,"end":6278.631,"text":"目前的曝險數字來說從金融曝險的狀況我們大概要降到多少水位才能夠擺脫對中國的依賴我簡單的講其實跟委員說明其實我們的數字是這樣從我們歷史上最高占我們全體銀行的淨值大概71%現在大概來到了14.59%"},{"start":6296.123,"end":6313.788,"text":"再來就是說這當然就是說我們對任何一個那個市場的依賴程度越高那當然所受的風險越低我想這兩個數值可以做一個比較大的比較就是現在我們在對大陸的曝險大概是佔他們現在銀行淨值的只有14.59最高是最高是71的時候"},{"start":6316.309,"end":6338.352,"text":"是不是要再降低沒有 這個還是他們全球佈局的一部分我覺得全球佈局其實像我們最近我們的國營在我們是從國家角度我剛剛一開始就說從國安的角度我們要多少降到多少你認為才是這我們倒是沒去評估不過我們現在是持續按照他們整個的全球的佈局在安排主委你回去評估一下必要的時候跟業者勸說一下我再來跟那個總裁對話一下總裁"},{"start":6339.881,"end":6362.231,"text":"你之前寫一份報告非常經典如果要這樣這個從國安的角度他需要我們對不對但是從貿易逆差的角度當中我們還是要減低嘛對不對 不是嗎你上次提出三個一個是軍購 一個是能源一個是農產品農產品老實說數額有限我們的順差也不過是22億那軍購的部分又不算那關鍵就是能源"},{"start":6364.088,"end":6387.485,"text":"從能源的角度本席查到目前能源的佔比澳洲佔4成美國佔1成然後其他的是卡達4成當中澳洲因為在已經實施了國產天然氣安全機制要優先提供澳洲國內使用2027會更嚴格的一個儲備限制中國也因為關稅的因素轉向跟澳洲擴大這個採買當然裡頭澳洲還有他們親中親美的一個問題姑且不講"},{"start":6392.509,"end":6413.574,"text":"拉回来说目前美国的占比10%这个未来10年要采购2000亿以照目前的这贸易逆差的这个部分跟能源安全的角度来看你认为这个比例够高吗还是需要再提升你三项当中两项就已经排除了剩下这一项而已要减少贸易逆差是否还有其他的可能性"},{"start":6416.841,"end":6429.078,"text":"我覺得我們盡可能當然就是說剛剛委員講到就是說我們對台對美國的順差越來越增加那我們也要降低對他的一個順差"},{"start":6431.781,"end":6433.382,"text":"我想除了就是說我們採購以外當然就是說能源的話我們可以的話我們也能夠盡量的提高一些但是我覺得我們對美國的投資本身也會減少我們對美國的順差"},{"start":6451.997,"end":6459.383,"text":"那你預估來說這種減少的話真的會趨緩嗎你知道目前為止你看到美國越來越我聽到的講法他需要我們現在不是我們依賴美國某個程度他是希望不要說依賴啦其實我們國家安全很需要美國就彼此互賴的程度這麼高的情況底下我們也不能客問客誰說因為他需要我們所以說貿易力差不降"},{"start":6480.098,"end":6493.79,"text":"我想是這樣子他大概降到什麼程度會讓人家覺得有所交代到目前為止美國對我們的逆差雖然就是說對我們的逆差那麼高但是基本上就他整個的一個逆差來講剛剛也講到就是說現在也是第四位"},{"start":6499.475,"end":6521.726,"text":"但是第一位跟第二位第三位那邊他的那個都很大的所以就是說我們站在他所有的逆差裡面我們也不算是比重也不是說雖然有一定但是也不是最高但是問題還是在我們就是就他的安全的一個戰略的安全來講的話他還是覺得我們台灣是"},{"start":6524.807,"end":6531.831,"text":"其實真正會讓我們讓步其實他是從國安的角度來做思考而大過一個貿易逆差的考量所以逆差對我們台灣逆差他這個不是他的PriorityPriority是在後面Priority的前面是在國安所以相對而言我們把整個兩岸的市場從西轉到東對台灣的國安是不是有幫助"},{"start":6551.884,"end":6578.001,"text":"也應該是有啦很有幫助嘛對不對但是一來國安的加強的部分二來貿易逆差如果能夠趨衡的話趨近平衡的話那會更好嘛那另外一個部分啊我就要就教也就教一下那個總裁好了總裁可是談台美的貿易談判當中有一個東西是隱形的一個數位逆差沒有被談到就日美在談判的時候就有談到這一個"},{"start":6579.363,"end":6593.964,"text":"在台美谈判当中都没有谈到我个人这样估计起来我发现这个数位的逆差的差异点在哪里呢其实从2022年日本的贸易逆差就数位的部分就破百亿"},{"start":6594.685,"end":6618.63,"text":"那台湾的部分它是把夯不啷啷把这个服务的服务贸易把它加总起来把运费什么算起来所以说只差点2.2亿但是仔细看一下我们在平台受到美国的这一个部分的这个服务的依赖程度非常的高我发现台湾在美国科技在购买这些数位服务的时候这些公司都设在哪里设在爱尔兰的子公司是没有错"},{"start":6619.5,"end":6642.746,"text":"设在爱尔兰子公司那我们就不算吗最终的受益者还是美国的母公司是 没有错这个金额就爱尔兰的这个顺差的金额就不过千亿了里头对台湾的占比大概有多高你认为这个部分是不是也应该算入当中台美贸易当中的一个逆差的这个部分可以做一个平衡来依据这隐形的贸易逆差"},{"start":6644.725,"end":6654.038,"text":"我想這個服務方面的那個逆差以前我們對美國的服務的逆差是很大的後來就是慢慢的因為我們的第一個就是說我們的"},{"start":6661.568,"end":6670.34,"text":"就是我們的航運這個部分我們就變成越來越小那是一部分那是疫情時間航運占比比較高那另外一個部分也就是說我們對它的一個專利"},{"start":6676.809,"end":6692.647,"text":"专利权它对我们的专利权智慧财产权的采购稍微比较少但是平台的使用比例也越来越高不过这个就是说我们的服务我们的服务对它的一个对它的一个逆差我们台湾对它的逆差确实是越来越小"},{"start":6693.328,"end":6712.578,"text":"對 沒有錯應該是在貿易平衡的部分這個部分是我們採購它比較多或許將來您在報告的部分就是農業的部分軍購的部分已經不算了嘛能源的部分總裁你的高度的情況底下如何在台美之間的貿易差就是趨近平衡的採購事項當中多做一點琢磨那就請總裁費心各位請回 謝謝謝謝郭國文委員"},{"start":6723.886,"end":6726.864,"text":"總裁請回接下來請李彥秀委員質詢"},{"start":6735.7,"end":6753.406,"text":"感谢赵伟 我今天的质询我要邀请我们经贸办的徐直密我们的主记长陈主记长以及我们经济部的何振次徐直密还有我们蔡副主记长何振次"},{"start":6755.6,"end":6782.455,"text":"好 谢谢各位在这段时间大家辛苦但是我想全世界面对于川普的MEGA未来怎么变化其实全世界国家都很辛苦那到目前为止我们的谈其实分两块一个是行政协议一个是MOU的部分那从大块方上来讲我觉得会有衍生几个问题当然就是说未来我们这些谈判的结果会不会"},{"start":6784.096,"end":6801.027,"text":"受其他未来美国国内政治更迭的影响会不会再有其他变化其他近几年因为最后这个谈判结果当然某一些产业松了一口气当然有一些产业目前还没有公开的到底充其有多少的影响"},{"start":6801.627,"end":6820.558,"text":"譬如說我們的農業我們短期是補貼措施我們中長期的規劃是什麼我們到目前為止我還沒有看到包括對於中小傳統產業的影響我們做什麼樣的準備還有我們本國品牌對於美國的相關的品牌同樣的項目我們後續未來的競爭力"},{"start":6826.582,"end":6853.312,"text":"怎麼樣去做後續的處理當然面對全國供應鏈的重組包括我們地緣政治的升溫我覺得在這次談判的結果不只是台美關係經貿關係的深化其實更深一層的我覺得身為立法委員在野黨的立委我覺得未來包括整體對於這樣子的談判的結果未來對於我們整項整塊包括我們台灣的核心的產業我們"},{"start":6855.393,"end":6879.453,"text":"无论是晶片也好台积电也好我们整个制度的定位还有整个政策后续的影响我觉得是我们立法委员要关心的那在这一次主席讲我要请问主席讲说在1月16号谈判的结果包括半导体还有相关的衍生的相关的问题包括在232的关税后续的影响当然产业界"},{"start":6880.213,"end":6902.579,"text":"過去九個月很多都是忐忑不安但看到這樣的結果其實某些產業包括晶片半導體有一些人鬆了一口氣當然15%還是比過去的高但是至少沒有過去媒體我們揣測的那麼高但是我覺得我們看整件談判的結果我們不能只看"},{"start":6903.834,"end":6929.868,"text":"台面上的東西因為畢竟還有一些目前還沒有公布的項目是我們要關心的所以不僅是目前包括未來我們要從美國進口的一些項目目前沒有公布包括對於主技術也公布說對於國內的產業民生的影響後續還是要繼續觀察台美貿易的協定是不是這樣子是"},{"start":6932.754,"end":6940.858,"text":"所以有一些還沒完全公開對不對不是還沒公佈 事項還沒簽我們在2月13號過年前最後一個上班日我們會發佈最新的經濟預測就GDP的預測還有物價那個時候就會把關稅的這些充分考慮進去"},{"start":6955.054,"end":6982.335,"text":"包括对关税对物价的影响在2月13号都会公布副市长我要请问我也观察到包括这次谈判当中有非关税贸易障碍的讨论未来包括我们也会对美国采购石油跟天然气对不对我们原来有针对其他国家采购未来跟美国采购的价格是什么我们现在还不知道"},{"start":6983.135,"end":7011.63,"text":"那但是這些天然氣石油等等都跟民生議題息息相關跟物價息息相關你同意嘛對不對好那如果同意的話那我就要跟副局長討論就是說過去我們看到雖然CPI過去這半年多一年我們都覺得台灣CPI控制的還不錯都在兩趴左右但是我每一次質詢我有提到其實外食族跟豬屋族"},{"start":7013.306,"end":7034.82,"text":"雖然CPI是空在2%但是漲幅最高的還是租屋跟外食族外食族如果一漲台灣所有的一般的白領階級 藍領階級大家感受恐怕都更深我再公布一個數據我們過去包括10月 11月我們的統裝瓦斯也都上漲了包括11月漲了0.45塊12月也漲了1.7塊1月份我們"},{"start":7038.582,"end":7058.889,"text":"漲了一塊錢過去三個月以來我們的瓦斯每公斤就漲了3.15塊錢以每桶20公斤來計算一桶就多了60塊錢這也就是為什麼我現在有時候常去夜市的時候或最近我在市場敗票的時候他們都跟我講說不得不漲因為瓦斯都漲成本都漲所以中油雖然有說現在的調漲是因為過去"},{"start":7070.413,"end":7095.286,"text":"但是現在在反映成本但是我就要請問如果接下來我們要跟美國採購天然氣而且是一個我們現在不知道未知的價格我們到底未來在民生包括這些瓦斯類似瓦斯這些調漲上我們到底還有多少還沒有漲這是我擔心的我要強調雖然CPI我們現在控制到2%但是我們的外食族 租屋族"},{"start":7096.726,"end":7124.135,"text":"感受到的租屋的費用跟外食其實是不斷的在調整所以加上我們接下來有五千億美元要跟美國做投資那國際資金的流動會不會造成台幣的貶值進而推升我們接下來台灣的通膨等等我覺得這都是接下來我們在中長期要因應短期可能我們就要因應中長期你們更要提出決策出來"},{"start":7125.695,"end":7128.54,"text":"我覺得就是說在這次談判的結果從那天賴總統的記者會當中我看到的只是報喜不報憂因為對各個產業的衝擊還有你們短中長期你們後續如何去因應"},{"start":7141.457,"end":7158.471,"text":"短期內你可能可以做補貼但是你不可能是永遠做補貼那你的政策到底是什麼包括我們的農業等等那我就要再請問農業部包括杜次長在這一次台美的貿易協定當中我們會不會去處理美豬美牛跟基改的問題"},{"start":7161.238,"end":7171.406,"text":"因為我從媒體上已經提到看到美方提出好幾次就是對於美豬美牛跟基改的食物希望可以進到台灣來到底會還是不會"},{"start":7176.318,"end":7193.474,"text":"包括基改食品包括標示等等現行已經在走的都在走那農業部的立場是絕對保護台灣農業安全那也絕對不會犧牲台灣的農業妳嘴巴這是標準妳這是官方的標準答案但是到底會不會會不會再進一步處理包括基改的食品問題"},{"start":7194.415,"end":7196.637,"text":"我想保護國人健康這件事情是我們"},{"start":7224.495,"end":7247.75,"text":"不會進來 你現在還是不能講就對了會不會你不敢講 那就是等於是不能講好 那美方這一次還有提出包括在國際媒體其實包括這一次巨大的事件前一陣子也認定說我們對於移工的強迫勞動等等包括我們這一次在國際勞工團體我們也高度被點名包括還有一些其他國外的媒體我們也被點名"},{"start":7248.67,"end":7260.546,"text":"所以我要請問就是說在經濟部在巨大的案子之後勞動部有沒有做好相關的因應準備包括未來我們的產業會不會涉及強迫勞動而遭到貿易的限制等等"},{"start":7261.964,"end":7266.526,"text":"跟委員報告 其實這個強迫勞動的議題它是一個國際的議題我們已經在呼籲國內的這些做出口外銷的這些產業要提前因應所以這個已經勞動部還有經濟部這邊我們也共同已經在跟你提前因應你的輔導你的配套措施是什麼"},{"start":7284.435,"end":7301.474,"text":"我讲台积电台积电在台湾我们毛利率可能都比美国高美国毛利率只有8%嘛那在台湾台积电毛利率好像还有三成左右三成三成多左右这个就是差异性啊这对台湾的这些半导体产业有很高的影响是"},{"start":7301.994,"end":7320.481,"text":"所以你的因應策略是什麼你不是嘴巴政府只告訴你要因應 你要因應你車子一直往前在開但是我們國內的產業如果沒有做好配套所以政府沒有輔導你短期的可能是用補助或用其他的措施或者你在談判過程當中你必須要談說必須給我們的勞工產業多一點的時間準備你要幫他爭取你不是因應馬上"},{"start":7327.383,"end":7332.304,"text":"國內的各個產業全部毛利率馬上就降低所以我們會來爭取我知道勞動部也會發布相關的指引然後來協助我們產業能夠來做因應我們經濟部這邊的話我們也開了很多場的一個說明會我們也會讓我們的廠商能夠了解強迫勞動到底有哪些criteria"},{"start":7352.81,"end":7380.025,"text":"你這個做法他們能不能做的你我心之斷其心之渡民可能需要一些時間還有相關的配套措施做準備我要再一次我最後我要提醒我今天時間這個議題今天的議題很重要很大我要再次提醒在這一次我們未來MOU我們有2500億要到美國投資水巴講講就是說我們不用出任何錢就像父母買房小孩買房子父母做貸款一樣父母做信用保證一樣"},{"start":7381.346,"end":7406.199,"text":"比照現在國發會的信用的機制國發會的信用機制我們的國發基金還有民間的金融銀行也是要相對拿錢出來投資對不對也要嘛目前國發會的國發會也有嘛所以不要在網路上給我洗說2500億我們政府都不用出錢金融機構都不用出錢當然要國發基金現在的投資"},{"start":7411.516,"end":7435.978,"text":"以100億的台幣專款來說有60%我們就要提撥然後民間要投資40%那未來如果2500億的話我們至少要有100億的準備金放進去投資投資有賺有賠不是所有過去美國投資的都是AAA的公司我們當然希望都是當然也會有風險"},{"start":7437.259,"end":7454.06,"text":"但是接下來這些其實就是我們擔憂的那另外一塊所有的金融業我們如果做了這些投資對於國內重大經濟的投資會不會有其他排擠的效果"},{"start":7455.313,"end":7483.611,"text":"其他的排解的效果會不會有跟委員報告其實這個是不用擔心的金管會還是經濟部可以回應我們經濟部其實在投資招商這個部分從目前來看其實像包括像美光還有NVIDIA這些國際的大廈都已經在投資台灣我們政府的投資政府的投資也好民間銀行的投資也好金融機構的投資也好它能投資的金額都有限不管對國內跟國外我們以前都是對鼓勵國內的投資"},{"start":7484.932,"end":7509.323,"text":"我們現在撥了大筆的經費金額到國外去投資會不會對國內的發展產業的發展會有投資這個排擠的效果會不會有其實是不會的不會我們現在看到台積電還是在台灣繼續加大投資所以這個是很確定的我講的是國內其他產業要貸款喔"},{"start":7512.438,"end":7527.722,"text":"會不會戴不到不好戴不會的因為中小企業信保基金是另外的這一次的我們對美的投資的專款它是有別於中小企業信保基金的所以不會排擠到我們台灣政府對中小企業的支持"},{"start":7532.642,"end":7544.501,"text":"我覺得40%的半導體到美國去投資我們看得非常清楚接下來產業的空洞化還有台灣其他的產業如何去做更多的扶植我們是不是有足夠的"},{"start":7545.976,"end":7571.852,"text":"晶圓留在台灣做其他台灣產業的投資我覺得這方方面面有太多我覺得我們今天在這邊我們都要去做更多的思考跟討論我也期待在這一塊賴總統不是只有開一場記者會我們各部會有更多的責任必須要交代清楚後續包括MOU後續包括沒有交代清楚其他產業的衝擊是什麼你們的短中長期的配套措施是什麼都要交代 謝謝"},{"start":7574.113,"end":7580.572,"text":"好 謝謝李燕秀委員市長請回接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":7592.305,"end":7616.307,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席的政務機關所長官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生我們有請經濟部何次長請何次長然後主計總處陳主計長還有農業部的杜次長以及經貿談判辦公室的徐執行秘書徐執行秘書依序來請教這幾位杜次長中委員好"},{"start":7617.615,"end":7640.089,"text":"次長好 我們這次關稅降到15%聽說傳產也共同受惠但是如果預算也不省 關稅協議也不過那會誰受害呢 我們來看一下有一個說法已經講了一年多了就說台積電會變成美積電請問次長你怎麼看這樣的說法經過這樣的一個協議談判之後台積電會變美積電嗎台灣金融海誌你說"},{"start":7641.189,"end":7668.13,"text":"這絕對不會的因為台積電我剛提到台積電在台灣的投資其實還是不斷的在加碼8成多 產能8成多而且按照我們的統計到2030年台積電在5奈米以下的產能在台灣會是在8成5我們簡短這些公司這9家公司是怎樣是在未來在美國的台灣模式的共同供應鏈嗎"},{"start":7671.038,"end":7694.236,"text":"这些都是在美国投资的吧有些是美国公司对不对对 是好 请问一下美光美光买了一个利基电美光会变成台光吗没有所以你说怎么解释这次在我们半导体产业经过台美协议谈判之后这些半导体的大哥们他们到底会形成怎么样的一个产业关系呢"},{"start":7695.42,"end":7723.239,"text":"其实这个就可以看得出来其实半导体这个产业它需要是一个全球布局台美而且跟欧盟日本这些合作的这样的一个生态系我们必须要把它建立起来来 那我们看一下台美半导体是相辅相成那传产 传统产业也可以顺入共成吗这里面谈到的所谓的15%不叠加谈到了未来有232还有最优惠待遇我想请教一下往下看"},{"start":7723.999,"end":7746.548,"text":"哪些傳統產業的競爭力不降反增因為人家說船廠現在很虛弱好的都是海盜半導體電子產業汽車零組件 自行車 塑膠 工具機手工具 水五金 醫療器材還有機械這些未來的競爭力怎麼樣市長你怎麼看是 這些都是受惠的產業受惠 為什麼說要受惠因為它的關稅大幅降低了不是從0變成15 還是怎麼樣"},{"start":7749.482,"end":7761.873,"text":"我們來看一下是不是跟大聯盟我們台灣的船廠跟大聯盟哪些德國 日本 韓國 歐盟這些都是大聯盟對不對過去我們的工具機是不是跟人家相較起來我們的"},{"start":7763.201,"end":7787.913,"text":"稅都是比較高 對相較於歐盟 韓國 德國 日本都是15%這是我們談到的結果你覺得跟大聯盟我們相較之下我們有沒有劣勢我們絕對沒有劣勢好 所以這次的結果我們降到跟他們一樣15%來 我們來看小聯盟好了我們的手工具 水五金 塑膠製品 自行車跟墨西哥 越南 中國競爭"},{"start":7789.659,"end":7811.016,"text":"我們現在降到15%了對不對這些國家呢 怎麼樣他們這些國家的稅率還是蠻高的所以我們跟大聯盟並駕齊驅跟小聯盟拉開距離是不是這樣子是好 那我們往下看來 接下來我們請主席長主席長主席長已經先離開好 那現在是"},{"start":7813.169,"end":7831.181,"text":"蔡副主席很抱歉預算不審誰倒楣我們請教一下今年度的預算規模是不是3兆0351億3兆0351億沒錯啦那其中相較於去年我們多增加了新興計畫還有延續計畫的新增額度是不是增加了2992億你對著麥克風講請說現在我們現在"},{"start":7837.301,"end":7846.874,"text":"目前在野黨說透過預算法54條要先放行718億是不是等同砍掉了76%幹掉了2000多億這2000多億未來有機會用嗎有沒有辦法使用如果預算不省這2000多億還能用嗎"},{"start":7855.515,"end":7879.801,"text":"沒辦法用了嘛所以包括我們永續的人才資源發展AI 自動導航等等這些都會延到我們國家數位轉型來往下看好 這些其他的部會社安網2.0我們的社工人員要加薪我們的關懷訓練要拓展我們所有的增額人才要增加還能做嗎為了少子女化長照社會救助伸張這些新計畫能做嗎"},{"start":7882.182,"end":7904.551,"text":"有沒有錢做 如果預算不審可以過嗎就是新增的就不能做新增的都不能做 是不是這些強化社會安全網第二期有400億然後再來這些本來從400億變成819億擴增了新增的對象 獨居老人 新手父母 近貧人口受侵害者 這些人的服務都沒有了 是這樣嗎"},{"start":7906.642,"end":7925.689,"text":"我們從400億變成819億新政要做的都不能做了是這樣嗎總的來講2992億就是影響經濟成長率1.1個百分點OK 好啦我們的腳本好像不太一樣來往下看我來問你好無人機科研中小企業賽事跟場館這些我們主席總書有沒有盤點這些都還能做嗎運動部"},{"start":7931.226,"end":7950.065,"text":"經濟部因為今天的運動部沒有人來你可以待會回答嗎這還能做嗎只要是新增的或者NC線的計畫比去年多增加的所以你就是很清楚的告訴大家新增的都做不了了啦2990而已除了718億他們放贏了之外其他的都空了來我們請到杜次長農業部我們屏東農業縣我們關心的來"},{"start":7953.871,"end":7980.237,"text":"如果關稅協議我們不用審查通過誰會受害我請教一下台灣目前對美銷售的出口的是什麼有毛豆 蝴蝶籃 鱸魚 烏龜魚跟鬼頭刀所有出口主要產品都受害目前我們這些出口的價值過去在我們的出口占比美國市場很重要對不對美國是我們第一農產品出口市場所以美國是我們第一農產品市場好 那往下看如果我們這次關稅協議過了"},{"start":7982.591,"end":8005.67,"text":"那跟我們的主要競爭國 您覺得呢我們的毛豆跟中國競爭 蝴蝶蘭跟加拿大競爭鱸魚跟中國 土耳其競爭吳郭魚還有越南 印尼跟中國 鬼頭刀跟厄瓜多如果我們這次貿易談判協議通過了你覺得對我們農民 蘇美是利多嗎當然是利多 所以一定要維持現在食物而且不疊加的狀況最好"},{"start":8006.792,"end":8031.252,"text":"所以我們這次的台美關稅談判不是只有半導體全球佈局成功多營連我們的船產也受惠連我們的農產品也需要對不對完全需要好那接下來我要請我們的徐執行秘書是委員號來這些問題呢你不見得現在都能答得完你試著答答看跟美國的關稅談判哪些國家已經完成了關稅協議完成了簽訂有沒有"},{"start":8033.927,"end":8058.057,"text":"完成簽訂的是像柬埔寨跟馬來西亞這個是確定的已經完成簽訂了 是的好 那這些國家跟美國的關稅協議在他們國內是照案通過嗎我們目前的了解應該是大部分都照案通過不是 你說那兩個 馬來西亞跟誰馬來西亞跟柬埔寨柬埔寨 那他們是照案通過嗎是他們國內照案通過嗎"},{"start":8060.015,"end":8085.79,"text":"對不起 請委員再說一次來 我問你哪些國家已經跟美國完成關稅協議的簽訂是你說有兩個國家嗎柬埔寨跟馬來西亞那這些國家他們跟美國的關稅協定的簽訂在他們國內的國會是召喚通過嗎這部分我們再確認一下但我們的了解應該是都召喚通過 對有沒有重談沒有重談好 如果關稅協議回到各國的國內去審查有更改要不要重談"},{"start":8088.772,"end":8104.722,"text":"如果有更改就沒有辦法生效能不能重談要看雙方目前有沒有哪個國家因為跟美國談妥了回到自己的國會國會有意見要更改有沒有這樣的情形有沒有發生的目前沒有看到目前跟美國的關稅談判已經敲定了結果回到國會裡面"},{"start":8113.547,"end":8124.512,"text":"有沒有哪個國家的國會因為他反對要修改而造成協定沒有辦法簽訂沒有辦法生效 有沒有目前還沒有看到你會希望看到是台灣嗎"},{"start":8126.789,"end":8142.629,"text":"站在台曼辦公室的立場希望不要那我先問你假設你剛剛講到了如果未來我們國會對於台曼團隊談來的這個台美的關稅協議或者協定有任何的修改你剛剛說了"},{"start":8144.051,"end":8162.464,"text":"就無法生效那無法生效我剛剛講了農業會受損 船廠會受損半導體我們要擴大對全世界的市場的佈局但是如果發生這種情況我們有沒有機會重談你說他看對方那我再問你 假設可以重談你有把握談出更好的條件嗎"},{"start":8164.822,"end":8180.671,"text":"謝謝委員關心但我們可不可以不要回答假設性的問題不要回答假設性的問題對 行政部門來講是比較困難是比較困難是 抱歉所以你不認為我們需要重談你也不認為重談有機會談得更好是這樣嗎"},{"start":8182.588,"end":8194.149,"text":"你是不是希望維持現在的協議能夠簽訂能夠生效站在行政部門的立場是的所以你認為目前這個協議簽訂生效是對台灣的最佳狀況也是對美國的最佳狀況"},{"start":8196.357,"end":8224.917,"text":"是好目前為止已經簽訂生效的兩個國家他的國會並沒有做協議做任何的更改不然的話就不能生效了對不對是那現在還在進行已經敲定了回到國內再談的國家你有沒有聽說哪個國家有國會要去修改去影響他們談定的這個內容有沒有目前沒有目前沒有好那我希望談判辦公室要好好的告訴國人"},{"start":8226.077,"end":8253.085,"text":"我們現在談來的結果再重述一次就經濟部來講我們這次的半導體產業是能夠跟先進國我們同時的形成全球佈局擴大台灣的影響力對不對 何市長是不是這樣是的好 然後就我們的傳產來講我們有效的降低過去比較高關稅我們跟大聯盟並駕齊驅我們跟小聯盟拉開差距對我們傳產是有利的對不對對杜市長 那如果說這個協議生效"},{"start":8255.106,"end":8275.082,"text":"那對我們農業出口美國是有幫助的對不對具有優勢具有優勢而且優勢加強了對不對好 所以就這些議場來講希望談判辦公室跟國人號說明如果這個協議不能夠國會完全的審定通過完全生效對台灣是不利的執行長是不是這樣好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":8284.628,"end":8287.189,"text":"謝謝 接下來請賴會員委員質詢謝謝主席那個大會報告我跟羅明財委員對調因為羅明財委員等一下帶來的歡樂氣氛他說股市三萬點所以要請吃雞排然後再來咖啡"},{"start":8308.909,"end":8321.158,"text":"還有珍奶然後還有今年就是到三萬點所以就是說他要還有一個那個金顏寶那裡面是牛軋糖那如果股市四萬點他再外加面膜"},{"start":8327.552,"end":8351.184,"text":"謝謝羅明財委員謝謝主席大家今年的福利謝謝請主席我們的經貿談判辦公室徐子密請徐子密還有我們國花會高部主委對 副主委還有我們財政部部長財政部中部長還有農業部次長農業部杜次長"},{"start":8362.462,"end":8383.272,"text":"是 大家好首先非常恭喜也謝謝1月15號台美談判關稅達成了協議等於是台灣對等關稅調降為15%這個對台灣的整體經濟而言的確是一個非常正面的一個訊息在這裡也要感謝"},{"start":8385.733,"end":8399.578,"text":"那個談判團隊的一個辛苦跟努力那我要再一次提醒我們的政府就是說本席來自於台南的西北我們是一個非常鄉下的一個選區這個地方它其實是以農業為主"},{"start":8401.158,"end":8420.263,"text":"那所有的焦點我們都放在這個半導體跟高科技產業是不是我們絕對不能忽略的到一個現實台灣不是只有高科技的一個產業其實支撐就業的還是地方的一個經濟那還有包括大量的中小企業跟農業"},{"start":8421.403,"end":8446.519,"text":"所以關稅的調整不再是少數的一個產業的有感那對於前面市場的一個影響跟產業的一個分布我想這個都是非常重要的好 那個我在這裡請教那個就是執行秘書談判的結果已經出來了那談判的所有的一個底線你都知道嗎"},{"start":8449.134,"end":8473.094,"text":"是向委員報告就是說除了日前1月16號簽署的投資MOU之外那之後還有一份台美對等貿易協定這個目前在做這個文字的核對還有清單項目的核對當中那簽署完成我們就會一起送國會好 徐秘書顯然就是你對談判的一個過程裡頭我們的底線你是非常了解的"},{"start":8473.795,"end":8494.614,"text":"那在這裡我想請教你就是說所有的一個投資5000億的一個投資還是2500億的投資2500億的一個信用保障的投資那到底是怎麼樣講才是最清楚的你用最簡單的一個語言來跟大家做一個報告"},{"start":8496.594,"end":8524.096,"text":"有关于投资MOU的投资承诺部分它是两个性质不同的投资第一个2500亿是企业自主规划它因为要接近市场接近客户的需求它自主做的2500亿投资第二个2500亿是政府建立信用保证机制来支持金融机构来支援这个企业它在受信上"},{"start":8525.056,"end":8549.676,"text":"這個有需求那它的上限是2500億美元所以它這個是性質不同的資本好 徐秘書那我再請教你就是說政府的信用保證的2500億就是表示不是政府拿2500億去投資而是當企業要到國外投資的時候我們需要銀行的一個保證是不是這樣子的一個簡單的白話文的講法"},{"start":8551.48,"end":8565.436,"text":"是的 简单来说就是说我是企业当我是企业我拿100亿的时候去投资的时候相对的我也可以从银行端去借到100亿的一个投资变成是200亿的投资是不是这样子"},{"start":8566.817,"end":8582.653,"text":"是 然後這個借的100億裡面它有一部分它希望是能夠用這個信用保證機制這樣子銀行才方便借給企業所以信用保證機制是這樣來的好 謝謝那我請那個國安會那個副主委"},{"start":8583.294,"end":8600.301,"text":"我想就針對的就是剛才我們在討論的信保機制那未來會在國家融資的保證機構下去運作那誠如你們這樣講的這個保證的一個專款如果不足的話那該怎麼辦"},{"start":8602.146,"end":8616.055,"text":"基本上我們現在預估2500億的金融機構對企業的受信我們如果用保證成數保證倍數是15到20倍保證成數是50到60百分比的話大概是62.5到100億之間我們會分五期基本上每一期現在大概300到400億"},{"start":8628.843,"end":8650.993,"text":"台幣左右我覺得我們會分期的由國發基金跟公股跟民營銀行共同來出資來做保證專款因為對銀行來說因為他可以得到受信的機會所以其實他某個程度上也有參與保證專款的運用因為他會有一些受信的客戶的來源"},{"start":8651.633,"end":8665.31,"text":"好 副主委我可不可以這樣請教你就是說你們把高科技產業到美國去投資的風險評估了這麼低所以才敢開出這麼高的一個槓桿風險是因為你們非常有把握"},{"start":8668.174,"end":8683.466,"text":"可以這樣講嗎我可以跟委員報告其實有就算2500億的企業自主投資你知道我們其實像台積電的話它其實它自有資金非常的充裕它可能也不需要參與我們這些國家融資保證機制的保證"},{"start":8684.887,"end":8710.618,"text":"而且他也可以用公司債的方式來做投資然後國際信貸的方式其實他是非常非常多元的本來就相對的不只是台積電這是我們所有看到的資料就是說基本上台積電在美國現有的一個投資我們看得到的一個資料1650億甚至在微創微創也超過了10億以上的一個投資那還有就鴻海廣達"},{"start":8714.54,"end":8733.742,"text":"其實就很多科技產業事實上他們公司本身就主有就是更多的一個資金現有的資金所以你不會就是要讓供股行庫來買單吧就是說他也許不需要用到我們國家的融資保證機制所以供股行庫也沒有什麼表現的機會"},{"start":8734.403,"end":8762.05,"text":"也就是說我們是支持其他需要國家融資保證的企業它來做協助金融機構來做授信的行為好 謝謝我想在這裡這相對的一個問題再請教財政部部長就是說去年的稅收我們出現了短缺短徵的一個狀況我們看到了貨物稅跟營業稅營業稅少收了至少"},{"start":8763.59,"end":8773.069,"text":"至少那個500億以上那這樣子關稅再一次的調降那財政部有沒有評估就是說有沒有機會有回升的空間"},{"start":8774.868,"end":8784.853,"text":"跟委員報告我想對於稅收的評估我們會整體的評估國內的一個政經的情勢來做核實的評估那我想關稅的一個這一次的談判結果降為15%而且不疊加以及232這個條款以後我們獲得最優惠的一個待遇的國家這個對我們的產業來說是很大的鼓勵那相對的如果產業獲利能夠增加的話那稅收自然也會成長"},{"start":8803.543,"end":8806.586,"text":"來 部長 我想請教你 為什麼稅收會變少咧委員報告 稅收並沒有變少 只是時增數跟預算數之間的一個差異那我要跟委員報告就是說 我們以中央來說的話我們114年的預算數比113年的預算數增加了4705億 成長20.3%"},{"start":8826.28,"end":8842.954,"text":"而且我们这个预算数还比113年的时增数增加到947亿所以我们今年的时增114年的时增数虽然跟预算数之间有差异但是事实上是比113年的时增数还是高的还是高的"},{"start":8844.975,"end":8849.338,"text":"是高的所以說你評估115年如果這個關稅我們把它調到15%談到15%其實對未來我們的貨物稅跟那個營業稅其實會再有回升的空間因為今年我們該在這個關稅談判的過程當中有一些我們該搶的訂單我們不敢搶該買的該下的訂單沒有過來是不是這樣子呢你有沒有把握就是115年我們其實是有可能是回升的"},{"start":8876.036,"end":8897.888,"text":"115年的稅收跟委員報告有一個很大一塊就是中央統籌分配稅款擴大很多也就是財化法的修正以後中央對地方要增加支出4000多億達到8000多億所以對中央稅收來說是會比114年來的少因為財化法的關係讓中央整個稅收是下降的"},{"start":8898.356,"end":8925.953,"text":"是 財化法的影響會讓整體的稅收是降低的會讓我們預期稅收是好 謝謝部長那接著我們請農業部杜文貞次長我想次長簡單的一句話就是說黃豆 小麥 薏米都承諾就是說在這一次的談判裡頭會那個就是說會增加都必須要增加 增購那是不是守得住稻米呢"},{"start":8927.814,"end":8953.988,"text":"應該這樣說黃小玉其實不是我們承諾會增加而是在去年其實依照著民間工協會他們自己的例行的規劃因為國內蓄勤水產業的增加所以他們對於黃小玉的需求有增加所以去年農訪團其實不是政府出錢也不是政府來主導而是民間的工協會他們就產業需求去徵購黃小玉市長 我想我最關心的就是說稻米的這一個底線守得住嗎"},{"start":8955.189,"end":8978.972,"text":"守得住嗎 我想委員長期支持你看喔 你這個黃曉益已經是多買了喔那美牛 美豬 還有玫瑰車 美國米是不是就是說你已經是大量開放了喔那我們的稻米守得住嗎這個是很多農民關心的 很多地方政府關心的委員長期支持農業 也知道農業部該要守住的我們一定會守住"},{"start":8979.412,"end":9006.352,"text":"沒有你這個太模糊了我覺得你就是應該守住謝謝委員所以你會守住該守住的我們都會守住那當然是應該啊是當然是應該啊你才是5%的一個這個那個稻米的一個關稅而已啊所以就是說你開放開放了那個美國米到這裡的時候其實基本上這個影響不大你們還是要像以往的一個慣例把它守住啦你的那個供"},{"start":9007.072,"end":9022.119,"text":"公糧的收購價格的話你就是維持不變嘛是不是這樣子我想該要維持我們的那個重要產業的那就是該維持啊那就是該維持你的公糧價格就是要維持不變是不是這個樣子呢該要守住的我們都會守住"},{"start":9023.099,"end":9043.16,"text":"該守住的都要守住所以就是說公股的價格也不會改變然後美豬的萊克多巴胺的這個數據你也會一樣守住是不是該要守護國人健康這個SPS的規定也不會變"},{"start":9045.821,"end":9067.488,"text":"動植物防疫檢疫的標準也不會變不會變好那我也希望就是說基本上你守住了那我們的蝴蝶蘭這個15%的一個關稅其實對我們來講沒有之前想像的這麼難過沒有想像中這麼嚴重還是有點壓力所以怎麼讓我們產業更有競爭力這是要持續做對那起碼不是像我們當初想的是32%"},{"start":9072.609,"end":9086.937,"text":"那這起碼就是對很多的一個農業產業來講的話是一個非常好的一個信息謝謝委員支持那再一次謝謝大家我們也希望就是保障這個食安的安全農民的這一個收益謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝接下來請林思明 林昭偉質詢"},{"start":9102.639,"end":9116.348,"text":"好 謝謝主席我先請國發會高副主委還有經濟部何次長還有金管會彭主委好 各位好"},{"start":9122.393,"end":9137.031,"text":"我想針對我們台美關稅貿易的協議內容站在我們在野黨監督的一個立場我們還是必須對相關談判的結果提出我們的看法以及我們相關的問題來詢問各位"},{"start":9140.021,"end":9166.293,"text":"有關台美關稅貿易協議的內容卓院長在1月20號的記者會對外一再地強調2500億美元是國內企業直接自主地投資2500億2500億美元是政府運用信用保證的一個機制但是我們看到美國的商務部長盧特尼他對外說"},{"start":9167.95,"end":9184.368,"text":"台湾的对美投资这2500亿加2500亿这只是头期款他们的目标是要将台湾40%的半导体供应链转移到美国所以我请问国发会主委你认为"},{"start":9185.407,"end":9208.537,"text":"美國除了要2500加2500億美金的一個投資以外而且要將他的目標設定把台灣40%的半導體供應鏈轉移到美國站在國家發展的角色上這樣是否會造成對台灣整體產業經濟的外移以及我們人才流失的一個疑慮"},{"start":9210.157,"end":9233.949,"text":"會不會有這樣的一個疑慮我跟委員報告基本上2500億是企業自主的投資當然投資的對象美方希望我們去的是半導體跟AI的伺服器供應鏈可是第一個40%的半導體供應鏈如果按照現在投資設廠的方式來說我想經濟部有說最多最多到2032年只會有20%的"},{"start":9236.87,"end":9261.79,"text":"這些先進製程會在美國落地然後基本上 我想我剛才有講到其實最近因為所謂的AI基礎建設的快速的發展其實我們知道那個需求非常殷切台積電已經變成全球第六大市值的企業了所以它不可能只在台灣它必須要做全球佈局"},{"start":9262.831,"end":9281.656,"text":"全球布局裡面如果我們要接近所謂的我們的客戶的需求的話我們台積電有74%的客戶在北美所以美國的確是我們所謂的半導體跟AI伺服器它要做全球布局最好的地方主委 這個妳一再強調過了我想妳針對"},{"start":9283.636,"end":9308.874,"text":"當然這是你一個面向的看法但是我剛才提到了這個是否會造成我們產業的外移以及我們人才流失這樣的疑慮你針對這個問題來回答好不好我們會知道說如果我們跟台美的供應鏈更鞏固的時候其實我們剛才經濟部也講到其實我們同步如果我們同步在國內"},{"start":9309.895,"end":9332.133,"text":"台積電它國內有十億座的晶圓廠同時在建然後相對其實在美國的六座我們剛才講到2032年最多只有20%的財源而且它獲利增加的時候它資本支出就會增加然後資本支出增加的話其實對國內的投資的設廠反而是更為有利所以我們要從動態的整體觀點來看"},{"start":9334.935,"end":9355.023,"text":"我們赴美投資的這件事情不是我們直接去扣掉我們要投資的金額而是它會有一個反向回饋的作用它會增加企業的獲利企業的獲利的資本支出就會增加資本支出增加也會增加在台灣的投資是那個主委我想妳也是沒回答到我的問題我告訴妳一個事實"},{"start":9356.463,"end":9380.298,"text":"其實如果說這個台積電到美國投資或者其他的相關的產業鏈到美國這整個會造成我們人才很多都要赴美工作其實在新竹地區很多的這些相關的從業的工程師他都告訴我其實他們很可能以後就要遷移到國外"},{"start":9381.238,"end":9402.848,"text":"他可能就要移民到美國去在那邊就是跟著整個公司在那邊生存發展所以我們造成很多人才要過去所以造成說整個我們培養的人才到美國而我們相關的我們人才的培育能夠銜接得上嗎"},{"start":9404.368,"end":9413.014,"text":"這個都是我們要考量的我跟委員說其實大家也滿關心這些人才東進的這個議題第一個其實我們的研發核心的研發團隊絕對還會留在國內然後第二個其實企業赴海外設廠我們實際上我們有利於吸引全球人才為台廠所用譬如說台積電跟德國的薩克森邦德已經共同推動了一個台德半導體的人才培育計畫"},{"start":9432.268,"end":9452.44,"text":"所以我透過全球佈局其實我可以把全球的半導體跟AI的人才吸引到台灣來其實也會為我們所用那固然我們全球佈局當然有些人會到其他國家去其實要培養一個半導體整個產業鏈的這些工程師這個是台灣努力很久的一個成果"},{"start":9453.38,"end":9479.069,"text":"所以說如果我們的這些高階工程師都因為陪著要到美國設廠他們也要跟著過去我們要重新培育一批這些高科技的工程師跟人才我想這是一個很大的工程所以我覺得說你還是要很誠懇的告訴國人這樣子我們未來我們國發會要怎麼樣做人才的一個佈局我想這部分除了你剛才講的以外因為這聽起來好像"},{"start":9480.489,"end":9502.646,"text":"馬上把國外的人力要引過來是這樣嗎世界上現在我們最強的就是台灣的工程師是最強的那我們還要引進外國的工程師進來嗎應該是這樣說我想AI的創新發展基礎建設擴大我覺得所有不只是台灣所有的國家都是要從育才 留才 攬才我想我要告訴你"},{"start":9507.062,"end":9530.603,"text":"我想竹科的工程師他們被迫舉家要遷移到美國所以這個是對整個台灣的半導體供應鏈不管是公司也好或者人才外移到美國實際上對我們台灣的矽頓產業是產生很大的影響所以我想問你到底我們現在政府是否有看到台灣的第二座護國神山我們有第二座護國神山嗎"},{"start":9534.471,"end":9537.974,"text":"除了半導體產業以外我想軍工跟這些國家經濟安全比如說航太等等這個產業這個都是AI附隨的一個產業應該是我們槓桿我們AI的經濟優勢我想這個都跟半導體有關跟晶片業都有關所以我們還是要去誠懇的呼籲政府"},{"start":9557.128,"end":9582.627,"text":"我們一再對川普政府的這種談判的條件我覺得我們是一再的在讓步我們都表同意剛才當然鍾嘉明委員講談判的結果是對我們許多的產業是正面的我們是也很樂意看到這樣一個15%不疊加的一個關稅但是我們從另外一個面向我還是希望政府能思考"},{"start":9583.047,"end":9597.203,"text":"如果這樣無條件的去接受川普的要求會帶來台灣整個產業以及人才流失的影響你們也要去思考好不好我想謝謝委員的提醒這週一是我們關注的議題謝謝主委 接下來請經濟部"},{"start":9600.306,"end":9617.562,"text":"市長 我們經濟部對外說到2036年半導體的先進製程的佔比仍然是台灣80% 美國20%剛才主委也有提到我想請問部長經濟部這樣的說法是根據什麼樣的事實或者理論"},{"start":9619.092,"end":9640.533,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個部分就是我們把台積電現在規劃中的還有現在建廠中的我們都把它加總起來得出了這樣的一個結果但是我們看到中進院的院長連前銘他在上個禮拜1月22號對外說再怎麼努力"},{"start":9641.394,"end":9666.736,"text":"川普在任內台積電的先進製程應該不到15%的產能會在美國生產所以部長 何次長就算如果中經院說了只有15%的產能會移到美國經濟部 你有去評估這樣的產能外移對未來台灣的經濟成長率與就業環境會有怎麼樣的影響嗎"},{"start":9669.142,"end":9677.592,"text":"這15%的半導體的技術的外移除了這15%以外你能夠保證說未來不會有下一個15%嗎跟我們報告其實這是產線所以"},{"start":9684.64,"end":9711.39,"text":"半導體最重要的大腦都還是在台灣所以它為了要接近客戶所以把整個產線到接近客戶的地方去做生產其實這個是我們一個產業其實市長你說為了要接近客戶我也可以很告訴你我們跟很多朋友在討論其實留在台灣更有競爭力你把整個廠移到美國以後這些人就不用到美國跟美國廠買就好啦"},{"start":9712.37,"end":9734.077,"text":"台灣的半導體這些廠商還有競爭力嗎所以他們到美國繳稅就好了所以我現在是搞不懂你的邏輯在哪裡一直說整個到美國是造成整個把跟美國什麼投資美國是協助我們台灣的半導體在美國的一個產業實力的一個延伸聽起來很美好啦"},{"start":9735.037,"end":9761.121,"text":"但是未來是不是這樣我覺得這個是值得觀察我要講得很實在因為大多數的人都有這樣的一個疑慮所以你現在講說是台灣是仍然是到2036台灣仍然80%美國仍然20%是的其實我們很擔心即便說到2036美國是20%所以我剛才問你是不是不只未來就是即便說是2036 20%2036以後"},{"start":9764.722,"end":9776.907,"text":"是不是又會又來一個百分之二十的產能又要轉移到美國因為川普就好 這個虛所無度你壯大美國 但是你卻弱化台灣"},{"start":9778.306,"end":9798.641,"text":"會不會有這樣的一個可能發生我想半導體產業它全球佈局是勢在必行的哪邊有商機其實在那個台積電大概就會往那個地方去移動我想我們的推估是有跟這個事實這樣的一個評估的這樣的一個基礎"},{"start":9799.642,"end":9821.774,"text":"所以也不見得說這樣的一個外移會讓我們台灣的產業可能就是弱化了反而我們可以用當地的人力然後當地的資源然後再來就是說我們可以接近客戶可以提供最好的最佳的這樣的一個服務所以這個是一個全球化這個世界級企業很重要的一個發展的一個策略"},{"start":9823.775,"end":9849.185,"text":"OK 這是政府的一個對相關政策的一個說法另外經濟部投審師在1月15號公布2025年全年外資來台投資的金額是大概113.9億美元沒有錯吧是相較於我們關稅談判後政府必須規劃2500億美元的信用保證藉以促進台灣企業到美國增加投資"},{"start":9850.786,"end":9872.749,"text":"所以我請問部長跟國發會的主委這兩個數字說白一點就是造成我們將會有2386.1億美金的一個貿易逆差鼓勵產業外移所以對於國家發展或者是經濟成長這次談判的結果難道政府不就是在幫忙美國壯大弱化台灣嗎"},{"start":9875.606,"end":9899.815,"text":"你信外資進來只有100多億你要叫2500億出去外投資這不是一年就2500億這個是逐年這個赴美投資它是一個每一年這樣的累積的過程所以它絕對不會是說一下子就把所有的資金全部都投資在美國當然是逐年逐年是"},{"start":9900.735,"end":9915.067,"text":"當然我們就是整個數據看起來就是說這樣子可能就是造成我們整個產業都跑到美國這個跑到美國之後我們還要必須觀察到一個問題這個是否會造成我們失業人口的增加"},{"start":9916.38,"end":9934.64,"text":"因為新竹 大新竹地區桃竹苗因為這個台積電的相關的這些產業鏈我們的不管是房價或者是這些民生物價都是全台第一名所得也是全台第一名但是我們目前觀察到"},{"start":9935.941,"end":9960.75,"text":"就是因為很多人憂心就是說如果台積電出走很可能就造成這幾個地區相關的產業這個相關的不管是民生物價或者是房價都會造成一個下跌的一個情況大家有這樣的一個憂心還有我們的整個技術是不是也會造成說外流的一個影響所以政府"},{"start":9961.926,"end":9989.008,"text":"對於這些相關的一個議題你們有沒有任何防備補救的規劃還是政府你還要依靠什麼去吸引外國人來投資呢是 跟委員報告其實就台積電的佈局他絕對是把這個最重要的研發中心放在台灣另外就是說他到國外的產線他一定是最先進的製程在台灣量產之後他才會到海外去"},{"start":9989.548,"end":10003.512,"text":"所以我們現在也針對我們希望說是朝你這個目標去邁進但是我剛才提到這些問題我想我們站在在野的立場我們還是要提出來了請政府要審慎的思考好不好好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10020.287,"end":10022.068,"text":"好 接下來我們請羅明財委員質詢主席"},{"start":10040.51,"end":10054.788,"text":"在場的各位委員 包括歷任的李燕秀委員新任的李委員 陳清輝陳委員在座的各位官員 大家早安 大家好可不可以請"},{"start":10056.052,"end":10079.499,"text":"主席請台灣有兩隻龍兩隻龍飛舞在台灣讓台灣有龍整個經濟一閃一閃亮晶晶先請央行的楊金龍 楊總裁請楊總裁金管會彭主委"},{"start":10083.305,"end":10103.432,"text":"那其他待會也請財政部莊部長還有國家發展委員會的高副主委還有財團法人周小切信保基金的魏銘古魏董事長董事長那個總裁你好是我想過去啊"},{"start":10104.059,"end":10123.031,"text":"我們一直在立法院不斷的財委部努力打拚希望可以看到台灣經濟的亮點可以找到台灣成長的動力股市是經濟的櫥窗今天好不容易看到股市飛躍萬點兩萬點現在已經上了三萬點三萬點不曉得"},{"start":10131.454,"end":10140.015,"text":"現在後續兵五年馬年就要到了總裁你覺得台灣的股市會繼續有亮點嗎我覺得這一次股市的亮點還是在科技股當然這一次的經貿談判的關稅對我們的傳產也有利多"},{"start":10161.995,"end":10177.834,"text":"所以基本上恐怕传产因为过去一年来讲的话我们传产的一个股市不是很好但是也许它会慢慢的会好一点我们希望说股市虽然"},{"start":10179.074,"end":10206.719,"text":"占上了三萬點可是有很多的傳統產業或是中小企業得不到政府關愛的眼神所以本題今天講因為以前每萬點大概我們與會的財經官員以前有吃過以前都準備了雞排還有喝過 有有有 吃過 珍奶今天上一萬點增加一個"},{"start":10207.898,"end":10233.756,"text":"就是金元寶希望台灣人民面對未來的經濟可以天天吃到飽因為這次股市雖然漲到了三萬點很多人沒有看好 沒有跟好所以我們金榮老師在講有時候大家要注意聽接著請彭主委"},{"start":10237.042,"end":10259.365,"text":"彭主委 你也是金融不是 我是金融兩個都是金融不過我們都是為台灣的經濟在努力看到了台灣股市上了三萬點我覺得你的福氣跟運氣也不錯以前有人站在那個地方不漲就是不漲你來了以後拚命漲"},{"start":10261.027,"end":10263.493,"text":"新的一年還會不會持續這樣的一個進勢這樣的進道繼續持續向上"},{"start":10269.332,"end":10290.422,"text":"我想謝謝委員對台灣的祝福我想其實上我們身為金管會我們不會對未來市場做任何的預測我想我在很多的委員會的時候也都說過這句話那我們是一個市場資訊充沛揭露維持市場的公平大概是這樣的做法我們當然期待我們台灣的經濟持續的"},{"start":10292.103,"end":10318.94,"text":"能夠向上因為不管剛才陳儒剛才委員提到的我們的資本市場是我們經濟的櫥窗不管怎麼樣最後一定是反映我們的基本面好 謝謝大家都知道金管會很重要他們請政企局的高金平高局長臺灣證券交易所的林修銘林董事長李愛玲總經理以及歐斯基的簡立中林董事長簡董還有陳立青陳總經理"},{"start":10321.842,"end":10339.576,"text":"簡董事長上市上規公司1850家每一家都代表很多股民的殷切的期盼所以我想請教一下林董事長昨天101很熱鬧創紀錄噴燈高峰台灣股市會不會繼續在持續走牛市"},{"start":10351.846,"end":10357.928,"text":"我想台灣的股市的發展充分的顯現我們現在產業在世界上的地位那外資的持股也事實上也達到了蠻高的點大概快到48%所以基本上來講我覺得產業的發展我們持著蠻樂觀的角度因為這個世界上的競爭力在全世界競爭力裡面短期是無法取代的所以我們也看到資本市場"},{"start":10378.013,"end":10392.22,"text":"這段時間以來的動能事實上比以前更加強烈現在的開戶數有多少它實際上的開戶數是一千三四百戶但是有不同的券商一個有兩個三個帳戶都有"},{"start":10399.585,"end":10422.582,"text":"我们希望说新的一年强强困希望能做大台湾的交易市场我们面向全球过去央行也可能比较保守未来证券交易所需不希望台湾人拥有一个以比特币或者虚拟货币计价的一个交易市场"},{"start":10423.002,"end":10450.299,"text":"事實上來講台灣證券交易所對於邁向國際的交易所跟國際的競爭對於各個世界上的交易所的未來的發展我們都在研議中所以包括委員你關心的事實上也很多不只這個產品端事實上制度端 交易端 發行端的一些政策的發展事實上我們都一直都在密切的關切並且在研議"},{"start":10451.613,"end":10472.392,"text":"好 我們希望新的一年是秉武年 馬年希望所有台灣的股民每個人都馬上發財好不好好 謝謝委員的期許好 一起繼續來努力讓台灣的所有股市上市櫃公司的能見度全世界可以看得到那你擔不擔心這個關稅的問題對整個未來所有的這些上市櫃公司的影響"},{"start":10478.021,"end":10499.033,"text":"事實上這次關稅的談判基本上來講的話我們覺得還蠻有信心的我覺得從這段時間以來股市的表現我們可以看到一些數字事實上也給予一些肯定好 謝謝當沖降稅需不需要再延長"},{"start":10501.037,"end":10529.119,"text":"當沖降稅我們希望當然能夠延長那我們也希望能夠常態化因為事實上來講的話這個量是一個非常重要對資本市場一個非常重要的一個活水那我們也希望台灣的資本市場不只在事實上的增加以外我們在流動量的部分來講的話也能夠跟國際一樣的重要謝謝"},{"start":10530.919,"end":10549.312,"text":"本黨主席鄭麗文政主席他說新的一年是和解愛台灣拼經濟的一年所以我們希望大家面對經濟的問題不要有成見只要對台灣好的我們一定全力來推動所以現在是麻煩昭偉我們現場的"},{"start":10552.063,"end":10568.415,"text":"李燕秀理委員 李坤澄委員還有陳清輝澄委員我們是不是請所有的官員前面有雞排 有珍奶自己取用順便自己拿一個元寶祝福大家新年快樂 馬年興大運馬上發財 謝謝謝謝樓民財委員"},{"start":10575.758,"end":10591.03,"text":"羅民財委員特別準備了200份我們現場的記者媒體朋友待會大家也可以一起來共享這個經濟的一個股市傷亂點的一個成果來我們現在先休息還有李坤城召委一起來召委 召委"},{"start":10608.916,"end":10619.629,"text":"大家往後一點"},{"start":10630.623,"end":10643.715,"text":"好 來五四三"},{"start":11029.384,"end":11051.571,"text":"我們在一分鐘繼續開會 請大家陸續進述也謝謝榮民財委員慷慨解囊請珍奶是不是移到後面去發 好不好"},{"start":11053.723,"end":11059.03,"text":"珍珠奶茶請茶水間的同仁來協助發放珍珠奶茶"},{"start":11105.851,"end":11107.433,"text":"好 我們大家請就位再次感謝羅民財委員 大家掌聲謝謝好"},{"start":11134.639,"end":11139.586,"text":"好 大家都準備好了那我們接下來請李坤城召委質詢"},{"start":11148.612,"end":11164.172,"text":"謝謝主席我們請財政部莊部長經貿談判辦公室徐執密請莊部長徐執密經濟部何次長何次長國發會的高副主委高副主委"},{"start":11166.223,"end":11195.229,"text":"好 謝謝當然首先先謝謝羅委員今天因為股市上三萬點請大家吃雞排那我也希望這個在野黨的委員能夠早一點讓總預算能夠通過總預算能夠早一點附委通過我相信我們的股市一定還會再漲很快就可以再輪到我們羅明山委員再請一次雞排但是前提是總預算要先讓我們過好不好"},{"start":11195.789,"end":11198.852,"text":"再拜託一下我先請教一下莊部長好了莊部長昨天那一個美國的自由攀登的好手Alex爬上101你有沒有看這個直播有看有看直播這個應該也是看得心驚膽跳不過我這邊要肯定我們傑奧文傑董事長"},{"start":11217.39,"end":11221.392,"text":"因為他說他把101外面的五根旗幟全部都換成我們中華民國的國旗所以Netflix不管你從哪個角度拍都可以拍到中華民國的國旗是一個非常成功的行銷台灣我覺得做得非常好我覺得這個要給蔣永傑董事長要肯定他 要稱讚他"},{"start":11241.864,"end":11258.462,"text":"那这个也做了一个大胆的决定但是结果对于台湾整体的形象来讲是非常好的那我请教一下部长我们这一次请Alex来攀登101财政部或是101有没有花到任何钱"},{"start":11259.342,"end":11280.458,"text":"沒有 101也沒有提供任何經費還有贊助或資金這各方面的支持只是提供場地 然後做相關的協調跟宣傳那財政部也更沒有出資了完全沒有 完全沒有那等於是說我們101在零出資的情況之下然後讓整個全世界暫時看到台灣"},{"start":11281.865,"end":11291.416,"text":"對 讓全世界看到台灣以及我們的國旗的飄揚那我覺得真的很不容易啦我本來還以為說我們101有出錢所以這次101也沒有出到半毛錢沒有 對沒有 那之前101蔣永傑他答應的時候你知不知道這件事情"},{"start":11300.247,"end":11328.243,"text":"这个部分是他们公司治理以及他们一个策略的一个规划这个部分并不需要提报到财政部你就是尊重101的决定就对了这是我要称赞这个杰尔文杰董事长称赞101尤其是用零出资的方式然后成功的行销台湾我觉得这个值得肯定那也值得我觉得所有的公务人员其实都可以想一下有时候你用非常"},{"start":11329.244,"end":11340.893,"text":"非常少的資本甚至像這次零資本然後創造那麼大的效益其實我覺得都應該給予肯定跟鼓勵好 謝謝部長那我請教一下這個接下來可能要請教一下國發會還有這個徐執密這個"},{"start":11344.776,"end":11368.266,"text":"因為一直在提到說5000億美元的投資其實現在大家都知道說2500億是由民間企業自主投資另外2500億等於是政府的信保我請教一下如果經濟部和市長知道也幫忙協助一下目前這2500億的企業自主投資是不是包含了1650億台積電的投資有嗎"},{"start":11376.671,"end":11381.054,"text":"這個應該投資的計算應該還要再跟美方那邊再確認一下徐執銘知道嗎"},{"start":11384.763,"end":11405.445,"text":"是有包含正在計畫中的投資就是包含這1650億包含計畫中的投資包含進去了那所以2500億已經扣掉1650億了然後那不然徐子敏來來再請答覆那所以這個剩下的這一個投資應該也是這一個跟台積電相關的這些企業會在過去投資嗎"},{"start":11407.303,"end":11420.048,"text":"在投資方案錄裡面有提到就是像半導體然後AI這些相關的投資產業那所以大概有有些特定的廠商會過去投資了嗎這個是不是請經濟部經濟部 次長"},{"start":11423.189,"end":11446.558,"text":"其實我們在跟美方談判之前都已經有跟我們台灣的這些電子資訊大廠都有開過一個會議大概也了解一下他們現在正在進行中還有未來想要去投資的金額所以我們才會所以大概就是談定了說大概會有這些企業會進去投資大概就是2500億"},{"start":11448.659,"end":11468.616,"text":"應該是說會朝這樣的一個方向但是多少年倒是沒有提到大概有多少年所以這2500億也不是隨便劃出來的數字是 應該是這樣就是跟我們台灣的企業半導體的企業都談過就對了有談過了好 這些接下來我問高副主委另外2500億"},{"start":11470.477,"end":11499.146,"text":"這個就是說這個等於是國家信用保證那你們有提到就是說這個財政部這邊莊部長也留住這個會由國發基金來籌措邀請公民銀行公股銀行來參與就對了那目前的這個準備的情況怎麼樣我們正在跟一些公股銀行跟民營銀行在做協商當中就是說在進行當中莊部長有跟公股銀行有談過嗎"},{"start":11501.598,"end":11513.637,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分國發會在整體的規劃那未來會由公股銀行還有民營的銀行一起加入以及國發基金一起加入那這整個的期程以及出資的一個狀況會再進一步的做詳細的研議"},{"start":11516.806,"end":11544.382,"text":"那我相信这2500亿也不是这个凭空化出来的2500亿并没有一步到位它只是提供一个支持然后支持金融机构对提供一个最高额度2500亿的对 因为你们有提到就是说这个信保的机制大概需要62.5亿到100亿但是也不是一次到位对 都是分年分期来做的好 那这个钱这个总是要有第一"},{"start":11544.702,"end":11562.531,"text":"低筒金嘛那這低筒金的低筆錢是從哪裡來的當然會目前的規劃國發基金也好還有公股銀行跟民營銀行一起加入那國發基金這個高富足委所以部分還是會用到政府的預算"},{"start":11564.157,"end":11587.943,"text":"還是用基金的方式用基金 用國發基金出資的方式用國發基金的方式對 國發基金出資所以第一筆大概要出多少錢我們目前預估如果是62.5億的話大概是會300到400億的台幣然後基本上就是由國發基金跟公民銀行一起"},{"start":11588.943,"end":11609.557,"text":"所以初期大概就是三四百億那就是由國發基金跟我們的公民銀行一起來來籌措這是第一桶金就對了但是會過去的我認為也是跟半導體高科技相關的產業吧因為一般的產業它不會特別過去那這些產業老實講也都很有錢是沒錯"},{"start":11610.157,"end":11623.921,"text":"也都很有錢 他們自己有資金然後就算是要跟銀行借錢需要國家信用保證的話我認為這些企業其實第一個不缺資金第二個就算來借錢 未來都會還錢其實我們都會賺"},{"start":11627.303,"end":11648.443,"text":"所以公股跟民營銀行才有加入的用意對於公民銀行來講 他們也可以賺錢是不是 也算是投資所以他們才願意共同來參與這個信用那這是雙贏那我覺得這部分外界一直在做誤解 在誤導政府要一次要出2500億 總共要出5000億"},{"start":11651.125,"end":11668.723,"text":"这个还在起我是觉得说相关的这些说明还是要说得更清楚公民银行就算来投资也是最后也是会赚因为这些都是非常有信用的大公司有助于他的放款的业务国际放款的业务好 那请一下徐子密"},{"start":11670.527,"end":11688.101,"text":"接下來大家會更關心我們現在簽的是台美投資合作的備忘錄MOU對不對是請問一下台美對等貿易協定大概還要多久的時間目前雙方正在做法律文字的檢視還有項目的核對我們預計是數週內可以完成簽署"},{"start":11692.064,"end":11713.817,"text":"數週內農曆年前可以完成嗎我們目前雙方其實都很努力的在聯繫事實上我們最近跟美方的聯繫美方也說雖然現在美東大學他們在放學假但是他們不會就不工作他們還是會繼續工作所以我們雙方都持續在聯繫我們希望能夠盡快完成所以數週內算一算其實也是在"},{"start":11714.798,"end":11723.356,"text":"台灣的農曆年前我們是二月中嗎我們會盡快好 那這個協定要送到立法院來做審議"},{"start":11726.593,"end":11755.44,"text":"在簽署台美對等貿易協定之後行政院會依據條約締結法的程序將投資MOU跟貿易協定都一起送到立法院好 那立法院來做審議那狀況就會很多了它有可能全部都通過但是有可能全部都否定那有可能修改內部的文字那我先講不要講最極端的情況那如果它去修改你們"},{"start":11756.7,"end":11780.355,"text":"談定了這個協定的話那協定沒有生效嗎是的協定就沒有生效了如果沒有如果有修改的話那是那協定沒有生效的話第一個重談如果要重談必須要雙方都同意跟委員報告剛剛其實也有說明過就是說我們不方便去對於這個假設性的狀況沒關係就是你如果"},{"start":11781.499,"end":11798.181,"text":"立法院做了更改第一個 沒有生效嘛這是確定的嘛那沒有確定就兩個一個就是重談那要看美國要不要跟你談但是我認為呢美國不會跟你重談按照川普他的這一個態度啊他就不跟你重談了"},{"start":11798.962,"end":11813.444,"text":"他就是從這個本來的20再疊加或許再回到更早之前32%或是更慘的有可能因為好不容易跟美國就已經談妥了那結果呢台灣的立法院不同意"},{"start":11814.605,"end":11840.859,"text":"那本已經談到這15%不疊加了那現在有可能回到最壞的情況就是回到過去剛開始去年4月哈索提出來的那個告關稅對台灣來講傷害傷害是非常的大非常的嚴重我覺得要把這個嚴重性你雖然說不是假設性的問題但是你們要預想到如果這樣子的話對我們現在所有的企業它的影響會有多大我看很多的這些"},{"start":11841.599,"end":11854.927,"text":"工具業好好 機具業也好許多的產業他們講說談到15%不疊加對他們來講都非常好我們的預估經濟成長也會再增加結果如果因為談判不生效那因為談判作廢了"},{"start":11857.248,"end":11886.17,"text":"那整個你們談了這麼久的這個貿易的協定那最後就作廢了那按照川普我認為啦川普就直接給你灌上去了他就不管你了這對於台灣來講危害是非常大的我覺得你們要把最壞的情況算在內就是立法院有可能會不同意或是有可能會去更改你們跟美方談妥的那些協定你們要把最壞的情況要跟國人講"},{"start":11887.171,"end":11895.557,"text":"知道嗎謝謝委員指教好 謝謝好 謝謝李坤城委員好 次長請回OK好 接下來我們請黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":11909.608,"end":11919.146,"text":"謝謝主席 我請經貿辦還有經濟部次長以及國發會主委好 請徐子密 何次長 高副主委委員好"},{"start":11923.789,"end":11939.473,"text":"好三位好我想台灣的談判團隊在美東時間的1月15號有正式有一個MOU國人都非常的關心而且也是對台灣來說我想請問一下三位目前為止覺得這樣的結果滿意嗎我們的國家滿意嗎你們滿意嗎"},{"start":11947.304,"end":11967.293,"text":"目前來講我們跟產業界都很滿意還可以接受因為關稅降為15千不疊加然後半導體還有衍生品232項關稅最優惠待遇但是我們同樣的承諾要付出了2500億的自主投資剛聽植密說的這含不含台積電的1500億1000億含還是不含"},{"start":11973.956,"end":11980.418,"text":"我在這邊只能在這邊回答就是說包含計劃中的投資包含台灣企業計劃包含台灣企業計劃中的投資所以包含台積電的1000億嗎包含還是不包含有這麼難嗎"},{"start":11994.049,"end":12013.317,"text":"計劃中的台積電的1000億算在裡面就對了如果您是指這一塊的話我們有聽到美國商務部的發言是包含的所以這2500億你大概已經有1000億了另外1500億的Code我們有被限制在多久時間內要完成嗎"},{"start":12015.325,"end":12042.011,"text":"巴韋沒有沒有所以沒有一定要在一年兩年之內完成所以你現在的時間還有然後投資也都找得到不會有所謂做不到的狀況吧跟文報告這個應該是企業自主投資所以企業一定是看到能夠賺錢的機會但我們要鼓勵我們要鼓勵然後第二個今天這是一個MOU如果中華民國政府沒有做到會不會影響到我們的關稅談判的結果"},{"start":12043.991,"end":12051.815,"text":"會吧 因為所以你還是要努力啊沒有壓時間但是我們會有一些相關的是 它畢竟是個條件它不可能說你做不到還是繼續維持原意嘛人家也會盯著你看這是第一點所以我們一定要在我們可控的範圍之內完成這樣的任務而不是只是單純說好 我答應然後沒有時間 所以我就耍賴我想這個也不是大家可以大家要這樣看到的另外一個是我們看到的是"},{"start":12074.318,"end":12092.783,"text":"美國也要投資台灣 對嗎是看到他們說雙向投資機制可是我們從美國商務部公告的相關的fact sheet就是事實清單裡面好像沒有看到相關的細節跟項目甚至沒有看到金額次長 現在有內容了嗎美國對台灣投資有內容了嗎"},{"start":12098.995,"end":12127.64,"text":"像委员报告就是说有关于美国要对台湾投资这个事情确实是在投资MOU里面有载明的那里面有提到有像这样2500亿这么具体的金额跟项目吗金额的部分没有明确的说明所以有没有金额项目跟时间然后也有包括就是说他们会通过相关的机制来支持子敏你现在在这边回答的是立法委员的咨询我希望你清楚的回答我有没有项目范围跟金额跟时间"},{"start":12128.598,"end":12144.217,"text":"没有有产业然后没有提到金额所以产业什么产业五大信赖产业以及生物科技产业生物科技产业一样的同样你这个案子MOU将来也要送到国会来追认是吗"},{"start":12145.354,"end":12161.661,"text":"我們會依據條一地解法的程序所以你還是要回答我們有關項目範圍金額我可以同意這是在談判之間必須需要跟美方溝通的但是一樣我們如果被要求的這麼具體2500億項目範圍金額同樣的美國對台的投資也應該續名項目範圍金額這是你們的任務不是嗎為什麼沒有要求具體的項目範圍跟金額呢"},{"start":12176.966,"end":12206.146,"text":"有关于这个投资的谈判还是他们不愿意提供他们多少钱不讲项目知道金额不说时间没有如果我们看到日本跟韩国跟美国的谈判里面的话事实上是只有单项所以你就是说美国要求所有的人具体我们在跟美国的谈判里面有要求到双项对我们的承诺也没有具体所以这个可能是经贸办或者是我们行政院还是要去努力完成在MOU"},{"start":12208.547,"end":12229.514,"text":"確認項目金額跟範圍我想這個對國人才有辦法交代啦當然我知道不好談啦那接下來是說經濟部是說對美投資本來就是台灣的企業海外投資的一部分只是把台灣本來要投資在台灣那會不會排擠到台灣企業對台灣的投資"},{"start":12230.642,"end":12238.929,"text":"根文報告 事實上是不會的因為其實這個企業部美投資其實是因為有台積電這樣的一個投資它會把相關的這些產業鏈帶過去所以不會排擠到台灣原有的投資絕對不會"},{"start":12249.937,"end":12266.324,"text":"我們不希望影響台灣其他的產業投資的動能另外就是鄭麗君副院長是說美國是希望晶片的自給率要有一定的比例但是不是由台灣獨立完成這個自給率也就是日本韓國還有其他業者都是美國"},{"start":12267.901,"end":12278.84,"text":"晶片自給率的成員也就是說我們即使是去美國投資了我們還是要跟日本韓國跟其他的相關的產業做同樣的競爭對吧"},{"start":12280.424,"end":12304.709,"text":"沒錯也就是說我們現在要做的是我們是不是更應該去積極甚至我們要爭取所謂的市佔率還有產品規格跟技術的制定這個可能是台灣在下一步投資了以後我們不要再變成邊緣人或者是又變成只是代工者我想這個即使要投資在那邊也是要跟日本 韓國競爭"},{"start":12306.269,"end":12335.198,"text":"所以這兩塊可能是經濟部下一步要告訴我們很清楚的是不是只有去投資去投資完之後還要穩定我們的市佔率台灣今天有談判的這個條件就是因為我們有非常強的企業跟市佔率所以跟我們報告其實我們今年推的AI新十大建設裡面對未來半導體發展的矽光子的技術就是要確保我們台積電未來在半導體會有領先的地位確保台積電去了投資不會不至於因為美國把全世界都拉過去之後然後我們反而"},{"start":12336.078,"end":12344.044,"text":"陷入了劣勢這是第二個第三個部分就是我們現在這個moment還沒有生效請問什麼時候會生效這個時間還沒生效"},{"start":12349.132,"end":12370.322,"text":"要在簽署台美對等貿易協定之後簽字完成生效雙方各自完成內部程序之後以現在這個時間點還要你剛剛說數週大概是幾週2月底之前可不可能簽生效剛剛有報告過就是現在雙方團隊都非常的努力我們希望能夠盡快2月底之前希望能夠簽署生效"},{"start":12371.131,"end":12379.88,"text":"有关时间点的话我们目前还是数周我相信对台湾现在这个moment我们还是20加N对吧没错现在还是这样所以越快越好不是吗15%跟20%还是差很多再加一个N就差更多另外一块是有关"},{"start":12392.301,"end":12400.612,"text":"你們在報告裡面很清楚的談判是我們對於美國進口的關稅要調降但是沒有細節要談好之後再對我們報告請問現在針對關稅調降的部分已經有具體的項目了嗎"},{"start":12408.377,"end":12413.079,"text":"向委員報告因為現在雙方還在做項目的核對的當中這裡面包括汽車 農產品大家現在都在猜測第二個是非關稅障礙非關稅貿易障礙之前美方對於我們的要求是針對很多的食品安全還有甚至勞工權益"},{"start":12427.224,"end":12440.252,"text":"這兩塊都是他們要求很久但我們一直沒有答應的事情現在這兩塊都會可能成為你們談判的籌碼跟條件我們會堅持原來的立場還是我們會在這中間有大幅度的開放"},{"start":12441.397,"end":12463.736,"text":"像委員報告就是兩件事情第一個事情就是說什麼時候會公開那是要簽署之後會公開第二件事情就是我們談判的原則就是國家利益產業利益國民健康糧食安全就算是要爭取到關稅降低但是不可以犧牲食品安全國人安全甚至是勞工權益我想這個是最基本的原則"},{"start":12464.597,"end":12474.732,"text":"另外一個就是看到你們有說支持在WTO架構下免徵電子相關專稅可是我們看到最近美國說他要退出WTO你們這些報告還有用嗎"},{"start":12476.135,"end":12501.62,"text":"像委员报告美国最近是说他要退出WHO那WTO的部分他之前是拖欠会费后来他已经开始缴会费了我得说将来在WTO的架构之下我们台湾还是要维持我们国家的自主性不能因为要谈判这个关税上权入国别人有什么我们就该有什么"},{"start":12502.598,"end":12515.763,"text":"日本 韓國該怎麼樣就該怎麼樣我覺得這個是最基本台灣不能因為我們可能在軍事方面要靠美國而在貿易方面做不應該有的讓步好 時間暫停我想最後請金管會主委三位請回好 時間暫停一下"},{"start":12523.413,"end":12541.05,"text":"不好意思 再給我一分鐘就好所以我想最重要的是現在股票已經上三萬點了那民眾很多都在年輕人其實都開始有投資跟理財的觀念那我們一直在討論的就是我們現在的股票還是一千股一千股做一個單位一張"},{"start":12542.071,"end":12564.35,"text":"那在全世界甚至美股現在其實都可以買到一股可是我們知道相關的金管會的對於這些交易的很消極從來不做相關的檢討主委是不是應該檢討一下像日本現在的部分是100股然後我們現在很多大的股份股票都拆分了其實就是讓一般人的門檻能夠降低"},{"start":12565.15,"end":12580.228,"text":"但是他們會有個價差因為你用撮合的方式會有跟事實上交易的價差還是有一段的距離所以主委我相信你也很想做一些改革這個部分是不是應該做一些檢討甚至有一個逐步的接近然後讓台灣的股票市場可以更貼近國際的趨勢"},{"start":12585.687,"end":12601.77,"text":"跟委員說明其實有關其實我們資本市場有非常非常多議題我們都有持續的在檢討中1000股很久了可以調整了針對零股交易也有做強化我想這部分剛剛委員提到其實不只這個議題我們很多議題都在研究中"},{"start":12602.31,"end":12620.443,"text":"所以我希望零股交易這個部分有做了但是我剛剛講它還是有一定的價差如果有價差它的確是不是非常的公平它等於說兩個價格但是你如果有一股一股交易的話現在我們台灣已經開放買美股了所以其實很多民眾都轉向直接去買美股因為可以買到一股兩股"},{"start":12621.764,"end":12650.658,"text":"那跟台灣一次要買一千股如果像台積電的金額這樣的話其實一般民眾根本就買不到那現在大家可能去買ETF可是可能還是受到很多大盤的波動但他可能不能只選擇他喜歡的股份我是認為說一千股已經行之多年了日本現在一百股我們可以考慮甚至可以考慮到美股降低年輕人購買股票的這些門檻我想諸位是不是也可以進一步的檢討然後往這個方向走"},{"start":12652.393,"end":12665.66,"text":"其實這些都是我們在日常檢討真的需要做我們就會來處理好 謝謝主委好 謝謝黃珊珊委員主委請回我們接下來請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":12682.388,"end":12685.43,"text":"謝謝主席 我請財政部莊部長好 請莊部長委員好莊部長 辛苦了我今天要問三個問題這三個問題過去你一向是三部不解釋 不交代 不給答案"},{"start":12708.257,"end":12727.471,"text":"那我認為這個時候我們國家已經跟美國這個關稅談判也談得OK啦所以我希望今天這三個問題你都能夠清楚肯定的回答我好不好這三個問題就是說我們汽車這麼高關稅17.5%我們保健食品高關稅30%"},{"start":12735.93,"end":12755.607,"text":"這兩個關稅是不是要調降第三個問題就是說財政部這一兩年來都一直提起要取消兩千元小額包裹的免稅所以這三個問題那首先這汽車高關稅我相信你非常清楚嘛日本香港零"},{"start":12756.508,"end":12765.315,"text":"美國2.5% 中東的國家不管是阿拉伯 科威特 卡達人家他們都是5%加拿大5.9% 韓國8% 歐盟9.8%只有 我看起來全世界大概我們台灣最高 17.5%"},{"start":12774.682,"end":12804.022,"text":"那这17.5%因为税率是相乘的如果再加上货物税加值营业税大概都会来到54%也就是说100万的进口车为什么在我们国内我们消费者必须154万去购买所以一只我们国人同胞这六七十年来一直都没办法享有在国外生产的这些价廉物美的车辆"},{"start":12805.407,"end":12831.357,"text":"那當然原因只有一個這原因也不是現在我們的政府去造成的因為六七十年來就是高關稅為了保護這個裕隆當時有當時的政治背景那這個阿斗我們保護了他六七十年到底還要保護這個阿斗還要保護多久那在去年我問起這個問題的時候當時"},{"start":12835.117,"end":12843.365,"text":"的經濟部長他竟然回答他竟然說如果我們降低我們汽車關稅我們台灣將會有十幾萬相關從業人員會失業他當時這個叫我四個字胡說八道"},{"start":12854.915,"end":12873.646,"text":"他全然不知我們台灣的汽車產業我們在零組件大多數這十萬位從業的人員有九萬六千位人家他們的工廠是零組件工廠我們總共"},{"start":12874.426,"end":12898.213,"text":"有四千五百億的零組件產值有兩千五百家廠商從業人員有九萬六千人人家他們很好很強百分之八十八出口而且都是國外的大廠Mercedes Benz BMW Audi這些大廠跟他們來購買從車燈"},{"start":12904.383,"end":12925.299,"text":"保險桿到排檔到啟動馬達等等人家是那麼的強那麼的好所以高跟駛只保護了一個這個阿斗現在人家也轉型了他汽車不做了"},{"start":12926.411,"end":12935.676,"text":"他現在改做不動產去設大商場 大型辦公大樓他去當包租公了那我們高關稅"},{"start":12937.239,"end":12960.532,"text":"汽車高關稅還量在那個地方這對我們國人同胞非常的不公平啦所以我今天希望你能夠具體答覆我跟美國都談好了嘛那是不是我們應該把汽車17.5的高關稅降低甚至我認為一次一步到位就降到零"},{"start":12961.98,"end":12988.088,"text":"這才是合理的嘛來對我們國人同胞做一個起碼的補償你的看法呢跟委員報告對於美國進口台灣的汽車還有保健食品那他的關稅的稅率以及是不是在這一次台美貿易這個台美關稅貿易協議裡面有沒有納入這個品項以及未來的關稅稅率那目前來說"},{"start":12989.088,"end":13001.866,"text":"就我們所知經貿辦公室的OTN也講了就是說在雙方還在做法律文字的校對之後檢核之後那在台美簽署以後自然會對社會大眾來做報告你是說要等"},{"start":13005.47,"end":13027.595,"text":"談好了還要等簽署那你現在就可以告知我們嘛那都已經談好確定了嘛只差簽署不是嗎所以你的看法怎樣你認為該不該降對於這個部分是不是要降我相信OTN在跟美方談判的時候都已經對相關的評估跟討論那我想在簽署以後自然會對外做一個說明的你還是不回答就對了"},{"start":13031.926,"end":13055.155,"text":"你還是 你就是三步就對了是 我想最後簽署就會對外做說明的 對如果這個簽署是正面的那我相信如果我們把汽車關稅降到零對美國 對歐盟 對日本他們更高興不是嗎大家來公平競爭"},{"start":13057.13,"end":13085.733,"text":"那他們的原廠車就可以平行來輸入我們國家他們是歡迎的啊這我們還有什麼好顧慮的那就我剛剛跟你講啦我們國內其實我們自己汽車產業是在這些零組件的部分我們那些很強包括變速箱等等你看那些車燈全世界量產最大的大概就是我們台灣這你非常清楚嘛"},{"start":13086.721,"end":13114.828,"text":"好那保健品呢保健品也是很離譜欸保健品部長您知道嗎我們的保健品關稅30%竟然比香菸還高天啊香菸是有害身體的保健食品維他命等等吃了是要有益我們身體健康的竟然比那個香菸還要高我真不懂那就鼓勵大家去抽香菸囉"},{"start":13116.107,"end":13121.009,"text":"鼓勵抽香菸好過吃維他命是這樣嗎你看我在國外保健食品的關稅很清楚美國6.4韓國8%中國8.5日本14.5我們啊是他們這幾個加起來總和30%"},{"start":13140.916,"end":13162.648,"text":"我們一年我們國人同胞用在保健食品這部分有1200億之多我們竟然在莫名其妙的30%高關稅之下讓我們國人同胞沒辦法跟歐美日國家一樣享有同等的價廉物美的保健品"},{"start":13163.786,"end":13178.998,"text":"你想想這多離譜一顆維他命我們台灣是美國的三倍價格這不是莫名其妙嗎其他保健品更是有的甚至高達五倍七倍之多所以部長你看法呢"},{"start":13180.607,"end":13202.404,"text":"跟委員報告還是對於美國進口台灣的保健食品他的關稅的稅率這些品項都會在台美關稅貿易協議裡面在討論所以你結論還是不給答案就對了還是會等到簽署以後談判團隊就會對社會大眾報告的好吧那我最後一題你至少這一題這個很小的問題喔這個"},{"start":13207.592,"end":13226.591,"text":"關於這個小額包裹的關稅這個其實很清楚啊這個小額包裹的關稅事實上我們有訂兩千元以內然後半年六次那當然先前你們一兩年前說要取消你們說的原因是說怕"},{"start":13227.734,"end":13251.69,"text":"中共藉由這個來洗產地那部長你們很清楚嘛小兒包裹這是我們國人同胞來自購買的國家有美國有日本有韓國等等也不是只有中國啊不是這樣嗎然後兩千元還限半年六次而已這簡單講啊這是我們國人同胞的小確幸"},{"start":13258.475,"end":13282.289,"text":"小缺席也要被計價 也要被取消是這樣嗎 2000塊你看能買什麼就是買 我剛剛講的嘛 國外價廉物美的保健品啊2000元連一雙好的球鞋都買不到耶結果我們還要把它取消這不是莫名其妙嗎 2000元還包括運費在內天啊 竟然這麼摳"},{"start":13284.051,"end":13295.275,"text":"所以我用 那你至少第三題最簡單嘛你至少答覆我 承諾我這兩千元小額包裹的關稅不要 免稅"},{"start":13296.755,"end":13312.93,"text":"不要取消可不可以這題最小最簡單嘛好 跟委員報告這個目前來說因為兩千塊以小額包含免稅而且每半年有六次的限制嘛那這個部分目前還沒有規劃到要把它取消沒有規劃沒有規劃好對 非常好關稅法"},{"start":13315.512,"end":13332.499,"text":"第49條有訂難得有一次我們的關稅稅收的法規有這麼好的這一條這一條要好好珍惜他就是訂得很清楚2000元以內的小額包裹每半年六次免費"},{"start":13334.38,"end":13348.757,"text":"這個給我們全體國人通報的小確性千萬不要取消今天我得到你這麼明確的這個答覆我這一點很感謝你部長辛苦但是另外那兩項高額的契稅關稅高額的"},{"start":13351.874,"end":13373.033,"text":"那個保健食品30%關稅這個我希望你能夠最短時間內給我們全體國人同胞一個清楚明確的答覆不要再三不啦好不好謝謝好謝謝王世堅委員部長請回好謝謝接下來我們請王宏威委員質詢"},{"start":13380.694,"end":13383.916,"text":"好謝謝主席我先請央行總裁請央總裁好"},{"start":13401.206,"end":13419.303,"text":"好 总裁好 总裁上个星期国际的债券市场经历了一个非常大的震惊因为包含日本国债的殖利率飙涨价格暴跌然后再延续到"},{"start":13421.138,"end":13448.532,"text":"有关于美国国债美国国债问题随着格林兰问题的情势升高所以在全球包含很多欧洲国家特别是Patient Fund一些退休基金因为对于有些是基于对于美国格林兰的态度大家觉得很生气一方面是认为美国国债的风险过高所以陆陆续续已经有包含丹麦"},{"start":13449.412,"end":13470.86,"text":"瑞典甚至荷蘭的持有者這些Pension Fund決定要出清美國的國債當全世界川普把關稅當成武器但是有些國家就把資產當成武器你用關稅當武器那我就拋售你美國的國債對於台灣來講"},{"start":13474.453,"end":13493.962,"text":"這樣的一個情勢包含日本國債的這樣的不穩定尤其高市也宣布了要解散國會但是我們是持有美國國債的一個大的持有者我們占全世界第十名所以請問一下總裁我們"},{"start":13495.56,"end":13518.806,"text":"對於我們外匯存底的部分持有美債我們有沒有些什麼樣的一個對策跟委員報告基本上我們對於我們的外匯存底特別是在債券的部分我們隨時都是做動態的一個調整"},{"start":13521.673,"end":13543.523,"text":"所以隨著日本國債、美國國債他們的價格進入了不穩定甚至市場認為隨時可能甚至有崩盤的危機我們也可能隨時的去做一些甚至減持會做減持的動作我們就是看如何來做最適當的一個降低風險的動作會做"},{"start":13545.038,"end":13552.034,"text":"那當然 當然會好 時間暫停一下我請一下我們金管會彭主委時間暫停 請彭主委"},{"start":13559.912,"end":13572.216,"text":"主委 我們台灣持有美國國債之高其實除了中央銀行持有之外另外我們三大金融機構銀行保險證券根據INF的總計我們到去年年底為止我們總計持有美國的公債高達3125億美元"},{"start":13583.539,"end":13596.569,"text":"但是我們也看到了一些資料也就是從去年開始台灣持有美債的金額開始在降低比如說去年10月份我們看到一下子減少了31億美元的美國美債這個其實是一個有意義的數字因為30億其實是很大的數字"},{"start":13606.517,"end":13618.184,"text":"所以就我们所了解台湾的银行保险证券是不是也有开始控管风险降低风险然后减少持有美债的动作"},{"start":13618.926,"end":13643.379,"text":"其實跟委員說明其實剛才那是美債其實我們整個我們假設我們以我們四站最大的金控它大概87兆左右它大概海外曝險28那其實大概是大概32左右是它那個部分裡面其實有美債的部分美國公債的部分其實那個比例是很低的比如說銀行應該是不到1兆"},{"start":13646.761,"end":13673.748,"text":"然后受险业我记得没错应该5000亿主委又开始在做一个希望有点粉饰太平我引用INF在今年初我相信央行跟金管会应该都注意到如果你们不注意到的话应该要被打屁股INF在今年初它对台湾示警它说因为我们美元的曝险太高倍数太高我们台湾美元曝险45倍"},{"start":13675.729,"end":13704.676,"text":"南韓25倍大到是不成比例它基本上就是在金額的部分我們未必比南韓多很多但是因為我們的外匯市場比較小所以也就是包含我們中央銀行外匯存底也好或者我們的金融機構也好現在整個的美元普選的倍數事實上我們是超高的這是IMF對我們的警示 示警"},{"start":13705.436,"end":13721.39,"text":"所以我拜託就是說為什麼今天要特別來問總裁還有我們金管會就是有關這部分當然他沒有辦法在一天兩天之內把這些部位完全的出清或者把它降低到一個這個大家沒有風險的一個這個"},{"start":13722.952,"end":13737.573,"text":"他的那个水位可是可是我觉得这一点我们必须要非常注意因为全球的债券市场最近确实乒乒乓乓那因为美国尤其日本日本的国债现在大家都不看好"},{"start":13738.214,"end":13765.329,"text":"現在大家都不看現在其實拋售的這個壓力也非常非常大而且隨著他們解散國會這一段時間內這一段時間因為它的不穩定性更高因為很多大家要增香減稅怎麼現在使得它的財政負擔越來越高所以我才最後一句話我想請總裁跟主委都給我一句話在這樣子的一個全球債券風險這麼高的一個狀況之下"},{"start":13767.33,"end":13783.473,"text":"美元曝險我們又這麼高我們現在的對策是什麼我來回答委員的剛剛就這個IMF的事情我來回答您你說台灣美元曝險45倍剛剛我也回答過這個問題事實上台灣沒有那麼高我們根據我們的計算我們台灣是22點幾"},{"start":13796.721,"end":13797.804,"text":"22点几倍22点几倍对所以跟南韩的25倍是没有差多少的"},{"start":13804.164,"end":13825.612,"text":"那我们是不是立刻要去跟IF抗议也好至少写信去澄清也好不然会影响我们金融机构的rating啊所以我刚刚也就是说没有我们的金融机构的rating是很好的那他这个只是说不是你IF的报告是这样大家看台湾的金融机构就觉得你的风险很高啊IMF呢是对"},{"start":13829.133,"end":13834.818,"text":"总裁那你会不会写信你会不会写信给IMF请你做澄清这个是小题这个是小题这个是不必要这怎么小题不必要那总裁我不能同意我在国会殿堂来说明说这个45倍是不正确的那这样就足够所以你直接说IMF做假讯息"},{"start":13853.613,"end":13857.395,"text":"這個是因為他的計算是他沒有很精確的掌握到倍數我建議我們要直接央行總裁請你寫信給IMF說這個是錯誤的請你這樣的錯誤最好能夠更正你也只好不能再傳達這樣錯誤的訊息一定要做 你是在我們立法院做在立法院委員大家都很關心"},{"start":13880.987,"end":13909.933,"text":"所以就是说这个45倍一报告的时候事实上台湾的金融市场也没有说很惊慌没有具有的观察是没有的有一天惊慌起来的时候大家就惨了来最后一个时间关系那请主委我们现在这些金融机构它仍然有3000亿美元以上的部位那现在看起来在去年我们开始有减持"},{"start":13911.034,"end":13934.995,"text":"确实如果你从10月份的资料它减少了31亿其实这个部位是大的所以在这一部分你们要怎么样的去紧盯住让我们金融业不要因为全球不管美债或者日债受到了影响价格下跌而影响我们整个的我们的资产的品质"},{"start":13935.871,"end":13954.162,"text":"其實跟委員報告其實台灣在海外的那個債券的曝險在前一波的升值已經受過衝擊他們沒做好因應其實本來就金融機構應該要做的風險管理這只是其中非常正常他們本來就會這樣做我們也會來督促他們做好自己的風險管理"},{"start":13954.662,"end":13980.156,"text":"好 我覺得這個事情大家還是要非同小可不是我們自己覺得OK就沒事好不好不要受到波及 這個非常重要好 謝謝好 謝謝王宏威委員的質詢 謝謝總裁跟主委請回接下來我們請洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員 洪孟凱委員不在"},{"start":13980.956,"end":13997.47,"text":"接下來我們請林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員不在接下來我們請陳玉珍委員 陳玉珍委員 陳玉珍委員不在接下來我們請葉元之委員 葉元之委員 葉元之委員不在"},{"start":13999.926,"end":14018.986,"text":"本今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢本次會議作如下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請求補充資訊請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":14020.848,"end":14038.181,"text":"委員袁寬恆 林楚英 陳冠廷 陳玉珍 林倩琦所提書面質詢均列入記錄 刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆四 本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢疑並列入記錄 刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理我們現在散會"}]}},{"id":"167252","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167252","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd618810dc3a636a885eae6f1768922cc290ddf2c95edea359322c4056f6ed70b2e814a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:28:43 - 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总裁好 总裁上个星期国际的债券市场经历了一个非常大的震惊因为包含日本国债的殖利率飙涨价格暴跌然后再延续到"},{"start":39.158,"end":66.555,"text":"有关于美国国债美国国债问题随着格林兰问题的情势升高所以在全球包含很多欧洲国家特别是Patient Fund一些退休基金因为对于有些是基于对于美国格林兰的态度大家觉得很生气一方面是认为美国国债的风险过高所以陆陆续续已经有包含丹麦"},{"start":67.415,"end":88.145,"text":"瑞典甚至荷蘭的這些持有者這些Pension Fund決定要出清美國的國債當這個全世界川普把關稅當成武器但是有些國家呢就把資產當成武器你用關稅當武器那我就拋售你美國的國債那對於台灣來講"},{"start":92.456,"end":111.962,"text":"這樣的一個情勢包含日本國債的這樣的不穩定尤其高市也宣布了要解散國會但是我們是持有美國國債的一個大的持有者我們占全世界第10名所以請問一下總裁我們"},{"start":113.561,"end":136.867,"text":"對於我們外匯存底的部分持有美債我們有沒有些什麼樣的一個對策跟委員報告基本上我們對於我們的外匯存底特別是在債券的這個部分我們隨時都是做動態的一個調整"},{"start":139.676,"end":162.308,"text":"所以随着日本国债、美国国债他们的价格进入了不稳定甚至市场认为随时可能甚至有崩盘的危机我们也可能随时的去做一些甚至减持会做减持的动作我们就是看如何来做最适当的一个降低风险的动作会做"},{"start":163.062,"end":170.038,"text":"那當然啦 當然會 當然好 時間暫停一下 我請一下我們金管會彭主委時間暫停 請彭主委"},{"start":178.832,"end":190.236,"text":"我們台灣持有美國國債之高其實除了中央銀行持有之外另外我們三大金融機構銀行保險證券根據INF的總計我們到去年年底為止我們總計持有美國的公債高達3125億美元"},{"start":201.559,"end":214.569,"text":"但是我們也看到了一些資料也就是從去年開始台灣持有美債的金額開始在降低比如說去年10月份我們看到一下子減少了31億美元的美國美債這個其實是一個有意義的數字因為30億其實是很大的數字"},{"start":224.537,"end":235.684,"text":"所以就我們所了解台灣的銀行保險證券是不是也有開始控管風險降低風險然後減少持有美債的動作"},{"start":236.927,"end":263.981,"text":"其實跟委員說明其實剛才那是美債其實我們整個我們假設我們以我們四站最大的金控它大概87兆左右它大概海外曝險28那其實大概是大概32左右是它那個部分裡面其實有美債的部分美國公債的部分其實那個比例是很低的比如說銀行應該是應該是不到1兆"},{"start":264.781,"end":289.41,"text":"然後受險業我記得沒錯應該5000億主委又開始在做一個希望有點粉飾太平我引用INF在今年初我相信央行跟金管會應該都注意到如果你們不注意到的話應該要被打屁股INF在今年初它對台灣示警它說因為我們美元的曝險太高倍數太高我們台灣美元曝險45倍"},{"start":293.732,"end":322.679,"text":"南韓25倍大到是不成比例它基本上就是在金額的部分我們未必比南韓多很多但是因為我們的外匯市場比較小所以也就是包含我們中央銀行外匯存底也好或者我們的金融機構也好現在整個的美元撲選的倍數事實上我們是超高的這是IMF對我們的警示示警"},{"start":323.439,"end":338.771,"text":"所以我拜託就是說為什麼今天要特別來問總裁還有我們金管會就是有關這部分當然他沒有辦法在一天兩天之內把這些部位完全的出清或者把它降低到一個這個大家沒有風險的一個這個"},{"start":340.952,"end":355.578,"text":"他的那个水位可是可是我觉得这一点我们必须要非常注意因为全球的债券市场最近确实乒乒乓乓那因为美国尤其日本日本的国债现在大家都不看好"},{"start":356.218,"end":383.329,"text":"現在大家都不看好現在其實拋售的這個壓力也非常非常大而且隨著他們解散國會這一段時間內這段時間因為他的不穩定性更高因為很多大家爭相啊減稅啊怎麼現在使他的那個財政負擔越來越高所以我才最後一句話我想請總裁跟主委都給我一句話在這樣子的一個全球債券風險這麼高的一個狀況之下"},{"start":385.35,"end":401.982,"text":"美元曝險我們又這麼高我們現在的對策是什麼我來回答委員的剛剛就這個IMF的事情我來回答您你說台灣美元曝險45倍剛剛我也回答過這個問題事實上台灣沒有那麼高我們根據我們的計算我們台灣是22點幾"},{"start":414.704,"end":415.806,"text":"22點幾倍22點幾倍 對所以跟南韓的25倍是沒有差多少的"},{"start":422.165,"end":443.65,"text":"那我们是不是立刻要去跟IF抗议也好至少写信去澄清也好不然会影响我们金融机构的rating啊所以我刚刚也就是说没有我们的金融机构的rating是很好的那他这个只是说不是你IF的报告是这样大家看台湾的金融机构就觉得你的风险很高啊IMF呢是对"},{"start":447.351,"end":452.636,"text":"總裁那你會不會寫信你會寫信給INF請你做澄清這個是小題這個是小題這個是不必要這怎麼小題不必要那總裁我不能同意我們只有自己在裡面做答內宣嗎我在國會殿堂來說明說這個45倍是不正確的那這樣就足夠所以你直接說INF做假訊息"},{"start":472.313,"end":498.182,"text":"這個是因為他的計算是他沒有很精確的掌握到倍數我建議我們要直接央行總裁請你寫信給IMF說這個是錯誤的請你這樣的錯誤最好能夠更正你也只好不能再傳達這樣錯誤的訊息一定要做 你是在我們立法院做在立法院委員大家都很關心"},{"start":498.982,"end":502.824,"text":"所以說45倍一報告的時候事實上台灣的金融市場也沒有說很驚慌沒有具有的觀察是沒有的有一天驚慌起來的時候大家就慘了來最後一個時間關係請主委我們現在這些金融機構它仍然有3000億美元以上的部位現在看起來在去年我們開始有減持"},{"start":529.037,"end":552.996,"text":"确实如果你从10月份的资料它减少了31亿其实这个部位是大的所以在这一部分你们要怎么样的去紧盯住让我们这个金融业不要因为全球不管美债或者日债受到了影响价格下跌而影响我们整个的我们的资产的品质"},{"start":554.614,"end":572.185,"text":"其實台灣在海外的那個債券的曝險在前一波的升值已經受過衝擊他們沒做好因應其實本來就金融機構應該要做的風險管理這只是其中非常正常他們本來就會這樣做我們也會來督促他們做好自己風險管理"},{"start":572.665,"end":586.519,"text":"好我覺得這個事情大家還是要非同小可啦不是我們自己覺得我們自己覺得OK就沒事好不好不要受到波及這個非常重要好謝謝好謝謝王宏威委員的質詢好謝謝總裁跟主委請回接下來我們請洪孟凱"}]}},{"id":"167250","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167250","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd618810c6ed7bf8067b37052e6dd44a39c46b25c95edea359322c40e168438cab24f24f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"12:05:42 - 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我請財政部莊部長好 請莊部長委員好莊部長 辛苦了我今天要問三個問題這三個問題啊過去你一向是三不啦不解釋 不交代 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Benz BMW Audi這些大廠跟他們來購買從車燈保險桿到這個排檔到"},{"start":238.233,"end":259.888,"text":"這個 啟動馬達等等人家是那麼的強 那麼的好所以高官稅只保護了一個啊這個阿斗現在人家也轉型了啊他汽車不做啦他現在改做不動產去設大商場 大型辦公大樓他去當包租公了那我們高官稅"},{"start":261.249,"end":284.159,"text":"汽車高關稅還量在那個地方這對我們國人同胞非常的不公平啦所以我今天希望你能夠具體答覆我跟美國都談好了嘛那是不是我們應該把汽車17.5的高關稅降低甚至我認為一次一步到位就降到0"},{"start":286.011,"end":312.078,"text":"這才是合理的嘛來對我們國人同胞做一個起碼的補償你的看法呢跟委員報告對於美國進口台灣的汽車還有保健食品那他的關稅的稅率以及是不是在這一次台美貿易這個台美關稅貿易協議裡面有沒有納入這個品項以及未來的關稅稅率那目前來說"},{"start":313.098,"end":325.862,"text":"就我們所知經貿辦公室的談判經貿OTN也講了就是說在雙方還在做法律文字的校對之後檢核之後那在台美簽署以後自然會對社會大眾來做報告你是說要等"},{"start":329.384,"end":339.452,"text":"談好了還要等簽署那你現在就可以告知我們嘛那都已經談好確定了嘛只差簽署不是嗎所以你的看法怎樣你認為該不該降對於這個部分是不是要降我相信OTN在跟美方談判的時候都已經對相關的評估跟討論那我想在簽署以後自然會對外做一個說明的你還是不回答就對了"},{"start":355.936,"end":379.162,"text":"你還是 你就是三步就對了是 我想最後簽署就會對外做說明的 對如果這個簽署是正面的那我相信如果我們把汽車關稅降到零對美國 對歐盟 對日本 他們更高興不是嗎大家來公平競爭"},{"start":381.158,"end":409.724,"text":"那他們的原廠車就可以平行來輸入我們國家他們是歡迎的啊這我們還有什麼好顧慮的那就我剛剛跟你講啦我們國內其實我們自己汽車產業是在這些零組件的部分我們那些很強包括變速箱等等你看那個車燈全世界量產最大的大概就是我們台灣這你非常清楚嘛"},{"start":410.731,"end":438.838,"text":"好那保健品呢保健品也是很離譜欸保健品部長您知道嗎我們的保健品關稅30%竟然比香菸還高天啊香菸是有害身體的保健食品維他命等等吃了是要有益我們身體健康的竟然比那個香菸還要高我真不懂那就鼓勵大家去抽香菸囉"},{"start":440.137,"end":445.02,"text":"鼓勵抽香菸好過吃維他命是這樣嗎你看我在國外保健食品的關稅很清楚美國6.4 韓國8%中國8.5 日本14.5我們啊是他們這幾個加起來總和30%"},{"start":464.929,"end":488.122,"text":"我們一年我們國人同胞用在保健食品這部分有1200億之多我們竟然在莫名其妙的30%高關稅之下讓我們國人同胞沒辦法跟歐美日國家一樣享有同等的價廉物美的保健品你想想這多離譜 一顆維他命"},{"start":491.314,"end":501.023,"text":"我們台灣是美國的三倍價格這不是很莫名其妙嗎其他保健品更是啊有的甚至高達五倍七倍之多所以部長你幹嘛呢"},{"start":504.637,"end":526.41,"text":"跟委員報告還是對於美國進口台灣的保健食品他的關稅的稅率這些品項都會在台美關稅貿易協議裡面在討論所以你結論還是不給答案就對了還是會等到簽署以後談判團隊就會對社會大眾報告的好吧那我最後一題你至少這一題這個很小的問題喔這個"},{"start":531.603,"end":550.601,"text":"關於這個小額包裹的關稅這個其實很清楚啊這個小額包裹的關稅事實上我們有訂兩千元以內然後半年六次那當然先前你們一兩年前說要取消你們說的原因是說怕"},{"start":551.741,"end":575.697,"text":"中共藉由這個來洗產地那部長你們很清楚嘛小兒包裹這是我們國人同胞來自購買的國家有美國有日本有韓國等等也不是只有中國啊不是這樣嗎然後兩千元還限半年六次而已這簡單講啊這是我們國人同胞的小確訊"},{"start":582.501,"end":602.968,"text":"小缺席也要被計較 也要被取消是這樣嗎 2000塊你看能買什麼就是買 我剛剛講的嘛 國外價廉物美的保健品啊2000元連一雙好的球鞋都買不到耶結果我們還要把它取消這不是莫名其妙嗎 2000元還包括運費在內天啊 竟然這麼摳"},{"start":608.058,"end":619.291,"text":"所以我用 那你至少第三題最簡單嘛你至少答覆我 承諾我這兩千元小額包裹的關稅不要 免稅"},{"start":620.782,"end":636.939,"text":"不要取消可不可以這一題最小最簡單嘛好 跟委員報告這個目前來說因為兩千塊以小額包含免稅而且每半年有六次的限制嘛那這個部分目前還沒有規劃到要把它取消沒有規劃沒有規劃到要把它取消非常好關稅法"},{"start":639.542,"end":656.512,"text":"第49條有訂難得有一次我們的關稅稅收的法規有這麼好的這一條這一條要好好珍惜他就是訂得很清楚2000元以內的小額包裹每半年六次免費"},{"start":658.392,"end":672.759,"text":"這個給我們全體國人通報的小確性千萬不要取消今天我得到你這麼明確的這個答覆我這點很感謝你啦部長辛苦啦但是另外那兩項高額的契稅關稅高額的"},{"start":675.905,"end":697.043,"text":"那個保健食品30%關稅這個我希望你能夠最短時間內給我們全體國人同胞一個清楚明確的答覆不要再三不啦好不好謝謝好謝謝王世堅委員部長請回好謝謝接下來我們請王宏威委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167249","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167249","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd618810f851b20818463aa8784d0199fe87f28ac95edea359322c4043de59c930387d485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:00:25 - 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謝謝主席 請顧部長來 部長好辛苦了 我是最後一位了所以可以輕鬆一點那個 請教一下部長"},{"start":19.793,"end":36.987,"text":"這個美國的戰爭部他在日前有公布了一個2026的國防戰略的報告這報告您有看過了嗎我想不管是國家安全戰略或者是國防戰略都是我們要密切關注的一個事項"},{"start":38.134,"end":62.846,"text":"好 他的重點就是說這個防衛美國本土印太地區以實力而非對抗來嚇阻中國那也說提高美國盟友與夥伴的這個防務的分擔那雖然沒有提到台灣不像這個在這個國家安全戰略裡面八次提到台灣他的在這個戰爭部的這一次的這個國防戰略裡面沒有提到台灣"},{"start":63.946,"end":90.167,"text":"但是他有提到說這個要在第一島鏈建立強有力的巨子型的防禦那台灣位到這個位於這個第一島鏈的中心所以我認為雖然沒有提到台灣但是他提到這個第一島鏈其實大概這個對於台灣來講這個重要性是不言可喻跟委員報告應該是在國家安全戰略是有提到台灣是第一島鏈的關鍵角色是在國防"},{"start":90.928,"end":115.458,"text":"的那個戰略報告裡面沒有特別提到台灣但是國防戰略報告是延續國家安全戰略延續而來的所以在國家安全戰略已經明確指出台灣是在第一島鏈是扮演的關鍵角色那所以在國防安全戰略裡面他特別強調的是說在西太平洋要建構第一島鏈要建構一個整體的一個巨子型的防禦"},{"start":116.198,"end":142.331,"text":"那要跟盟友夥伴來共同強化這個整體的第一島鏈的一個整體的嚇阻能力這是這個國防戰略報告裡面的一個重點所以他要求所有的盟友都要一起承擔這個責任所以不管是日本不管是菲律賓甚至澳洲等等那也包括韓國等等都要增加國防預算增加自己的這個"},{"start":143.371,"end":157.337,"text":"防衛能力然後來形成一個集體的嚇阻來維持印太區域的和平安全與穩定當然重中之重當然是台海區域的和平穩定因為台灣在第一島鏈的整個樞紐的位置然後又站在這個前緣"},{"start":158.833,"end":179.313,"text":"對,那所以部長其實你剛才講得很清楚嘛先有這個國家安全戰略,那接下來才有這個戰爭部的這個國防戰略嘛那在國家安全戰略裡面其實台灣的重要性是非常的重要特別提到第一條鏈那部長也有提到說這個盟友要來共同分擔這個防務的這個部分那我就要請教一下部長"},{"start":179.853,"end":206.406,"text":"我們現在的這個軍購的特別條例啊一直遲遲無法通過這個會不會影響到這個美國的這個國家安全戰略裡面台灣在第一島鏈的重要性我想這會傳達一個非常嚴重不好的訊息台灣沒有這會傳達台灣如果這個特別條例一直沒有辦法能夠互為然後來討論的話我想連互為都沒辦法互為的話這個會嚴重影響"},{"start":209.564,"end":218.849,"text":"我們所有的民主的友盟夥伴對我們有沒有自我懷念的決心感到嚴重的懷疑美國政府會不會懷疑我們"},{"start":220.836,"end":247.741,"text":"我想AIT大概都已經做了很多這個表述了我想我就不需要在這裡特別重複我們跟台美之間的軍事交流應該我可以說他在各領域方面都不斷的在強化我們的防衛能力那所以我想我們應該也要快速的要來強化我們的這個這些新式武器裝備能力"},{"start":248.641,"end":275.04,"text":"的一個仇共然後人力的一個建制這樣好 那所以剛剛部長有提到說如果這個軍購條例連覆違都沒辦法覆違更不要說審查跟後續這個這個有沒有辦法通過那我想請教一下部長如果像媒體還有所提到就是說現在國民黨為了這個跟中共那邊有更密切的交流他們打算要求國民黨就是繼續跟他們當時候在組黨"},{"start":276.521,"end":295.715,"text":"這個我們的這個潛艦的軍購的運算一樣打算也在程序委員會要一直擋一直擋現在擋八次嘛要擋六十幾次他們才滿意那我就要請教部長啦過去那時候在野黨在程序委員會擋後來我們潛艦就買不到了那現在如果在野黨繼續在程序委員會繼續阻擋赴圍的話"},{"start":298.573,"end":322.336,"text":"先不要說釋放出來這個美國這個會認為說我們沒有防衛自己的這個決心跟能力那我們所想要購買的美國也同意賣給我們的這些武器未來會買得到嗎因為這禮拜已經是這個會期的最後一週了如果這禮拜一樣沒辦法復違的話那接下來要拖延的可能時間會拉得更長或許今年也沒辦法通過"},{"start":323.49,"end":334.166,"text":"那對於台灣來講 我們想要買的這些武器美國也同意賣給我們這些武器 會不會就買不到了因為這個是從去年 我記得是3月吧"},{"start":334.946,"end":353.634,"text":"就已經跟美方不斷的進行討論那在美方同意公售的情況之下我們就軍購的部分來提出這樣的一個特別條例那剛剛站櫃師也提到了這個相關後續如果沒有辦法通過的一個嚴重性是不是等一下再說明"},{"start":354.254,"end":375.667,"text":"我簡單要說明一下我們現在面臨的情況比2004年要嚴重多了2004年那三項軍購潛艦是美國自己不做的他還有不確定性存在P-3C是熱機交接是在那個地方的那時候的I-3採購的國家也相當有限我們現在面對的是所有國家都在提升能力一旦我們錯過這個時間點"},{"start":378.288,"end":395.458,"text":"如果說發價書來了之後45天之後我們沒有辦法簽我們整個作業至少得延宕八九個月以上就是重新再來有這種可能性那後面當然就是其他國家提升的國防預算訂單出來之後我們能不能拿得到在什麼時間點拿到完全都是不確定"},{"start":396.519,"end":410.42,"text":"那所以未來如果這次軍工條例連覆違都沒辦法覆違那這樣聽下來搞不好整個第一個時間會延宕大概至少一年第二個你想要購買的武器也不一定能夠買得到了"},{"start":411.4,"end":433.978,"text":"因為我們原來同意籌購的項目雙方已經就這些項目已經有進行同意包括這些相關的項量集成項量等等那如果發價數過來之後就如同詹貴士所講的我們如果沒有辦法如期完成發價數的簽署那這個整個程序必須要打掉重來的話我們可能會面對"},{"start":435.919,"end":458.63,"text":"面對我們這個戰力的提升會受到嚴重的延宕那這個我看不只是這樣主要是美國對我們有沒有自我防衛能力的決心還有不只是美國包括我們所有的民族友盟夥伴我想都會有一個嚴重的問號產生那你有聽說民眾黨今天他們有自己要提出一個他們的軍購特別條例的版本嗎"},{"start":460.253,"end":488.604,"text":"我想如果有任何意見我覺得在我們的行政院版所提出的這個條例本身我們可以來進行討論如果有任何的修改或怎麼樣各黨團都可以提出意見那我還是強調就是說就盡量能夠盡快附委然後我們在委員會做就這個部分來進行審查那如果有任何的意見我們都可以來進行討論"},{"start":489.4,"end":513.707,"text":"所以有一種情況是有可能包含院版的跟民眾黨的版本一起赴委有這種可能性嗎我們整個軍購預算是一個整體性的規劃我們也做過精密專報我想很多委員都已經了解相關的內容就整體的規劃我想都還比如說軍購的部分有涉及美方同盟的賣"},{"start":514.887,"end":541.785,"text":"那我們還有根據我們的依照敵情威脅跟我們的防衛作戰的一個需求我們提出相關的這些商購跟自治的項目這些都經過整體考量那具體的項目各位委員不管朝野有任何意見我們都可以來討論所以部長的意思就是說其實你們這個因為之前我也問過啦這個條例你們準備很久的時間包含後面的預算大概也不是說這個關在房間裡面兩天就能夠寫出來的吧"},{"start":543.984,"end":563.279,"text":"我們是花了很多時間好啦 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請高副主委央行的楊總裁金管會的彭主委還有經濟部的何次長何次長還有剛才信保基金的魏董事長是嗎好 魏董事長委員好"},{"start":38.744,"end":48.677,"text":"我先請教那個衛董事長一句話就好了剛才我沒有聽得很清楚啊信保基金保證成數保證幾倍"},{"start":50.563,"end":74.946,"text":"目前我們保證的倍數是13.77倍多少13.77倍所以換算回來如果政府要保證2500億美金的話那就是要多少準備181.55億左右差不多是換算成台幣多少"},{"start":76.186,"end":78.568,"text":"我們對關稅談判 關稅的談判代表可以上來"},{"start":99.929,"end":127.459,"text":"我在好幾個場合都肯定20加N降為15%可是我們是監督我們是提醒要付什麼代價這個從現在執政黨從這個行政院長以降包括立委都講喔不是5000啦是2500啦我用美國大家在喜歡抱大腿的美國商業部長盧特尼克說"},{"start":129.224,"end":144.639,"text":"台灣要投資美國5000億這是頭期款最終的目標要打造一座大型半導體科學園區這原汁原味盧特尼克講的話這這麼簡單直接投資2500億"},{"start":151.636,"end":165.004,"text":"然後鼓勵企業去投資2500億政府保證如果倒的話政府要出但不管怎麼樣對於美國 盧特尼克 美國人來講台灣total就是投資5000億美金就這麼簡單啦副主委 我剛剛講的話有沒有錯"},{"start":172.192,"end":182.581,"text":"第一個前面的2500億是企業的自主投資那後面的2500億是融資我們有保證的所以加起來就是5000億啊有什麼錯呢這句話有什麼錯可是他性質是不一樣的都是dollar dollar dollar美金啊"},{"start":191.548,"end":208.279,"text":"因為是搭的啦來 那你剛才講的喔我剛才特別講的中小型保基金它是13多倍一般來講我們保證持續大概10倍啦如果10倍就是要準備250億美金所以有媒體提到說要準備8000億那"},{"start":211.192,"end":232.991,"text":"你剛才說要準備六十幾億可是按照剛才信訪基金 外董事長講的中小信訪基金 你就是要準備一百三十幾億美金台幣大概五千億左右 一百七十幾億吧台幣大概五千億左右啦齁啊 為什麼差這麼多啦齁好 這個完全是看倍數啦齁 你到底要保證多少倍齁 要保證多少倍那我就請教你"},{"start":239.031,"end":245.116,"text":"錢從什麼地方來不管60億美金啊 100億美金啊170億美金 錢從什麼地方來跟委員報告我們的估算到保證的專款是62.5億到100億之間呢基本上我們是考慮到其實附比的都是大60多億 你就要保證成數25倍了這會不會太lusky啊跟委員報告 基本上是"},{"start":264.933,"end":270.638,"text":"保證的倍數因為我們赴美的都是比較大型的保證的倍數是15到20倍然後保證的成數是50到60射算出來的金額你查一下信保基金還有榮保基金這裡面沒有人在這麼多因為中小企業就算信仰基金是中小企業其實我們赴美投資都是比較中大型的企業所以保證的成數可以倍數可以比較高一點沒關係"},{"start":293.177,"end":316.882,"text":"這裡面有講喔 那你這個錢就算六十幾億好了就兩千億台幣嘛 對不對兩千億台幣從什麼地方來基本上我們會分五期因為企業的投資什麼時候到位啦 前什麼時候到位我們基本上我們會希望前什麼時候到位你回答我因為我時間有限今年會到位今年全部到位不是 分五期的第一期所以第一期大概五百億"},{"start":319.414,"end":335.892,"text":"如果62.5億來說的話我們大概就是第一期十幾億所以就是三百多億三四百億啦三四百億的台幣今年的什麼時候 年底今年我們會行政程序來辦理然後我們應該是今年第一期會成立這個要不要經過立法院啊"},{"start":337.054,"end":346.366,"text":"因為基本上是由國發基金還有公民銀行共同的出資那我想不涉及到特別預算或相關你要叫銀行來講到然後請教金管會的彭主委"},{"start":350.905,"end":373.53,"text":"你們保險公司會不會被拜託來加入這個融資的金額就保險公司跟銀行是它的屬性不太一樣比如說保險公司它現在當然它也可以做擔保放款根據保險法但是根據保險法的規定它不能擔任擔保機構對 它根據保險法它要有十組擔保品"},{"start":374.907,"end":385.92,"text":"對 他就是按照保險法146之3嘛所以他不可以加入這個機制是不是他可以做有國家保證機制的擔保放款"},{"start":387.028,"end":412.826,"text":"他本來就保險法明訂的來來來 我再請教高副主委你這裡面有沒有規劃保險受險公司很有錢啊有沒有請他們出錢因為我們這個國家信用保證機制是循我們現行的保證機制的方式只是我們另外會成立一個專責的委員會來那個那我們目前的國家信用保證機制事實上就是由國發基金跟八個公股銀行共同的出資然後再做再放"},{"start":413.186,"end":438.362,"text":"我們將來會希望以循現在的你的國發基金要出多少錢我們國發基金我們要看要出多少錢2000億你們要出多少錢不是2000億吧我剛才說的第一期的我全部了我都全部了我們到時候就要看公股銀行跟民營銀行他入股的比重所以目前沒有要找保險公司沒有沒有沒有要找保險公司有沒有要找央行"},{"start":439.805,"end":448.309,"text":"不會找央行 不會找央行喔不可以用台積電股票指壓喔 不會好 我再請教央行的 來賴委員早總裁啊 是現在企業直接投資2500億了 是會不會動到你 會不會跟你買外匯會不會以目前來講 我們的市場的外匯外幣資金非常充裕"},{"start":468.68,"end":490.379,"text":"大概多少我們在報告裡面也有講到大概多少 你跟我們講你看我們存款就有目前的存款就有三千一百多元三千一百億但是他都拿出來嗎打死我不相信我家裡有三千萬好了我家裡有三千萬全部拿去拿出來我當然不要"},{"start":493.981,"end":509.552,"text":"你看看那個委員你看我們一年的那個順差都是一千你看對美國就一千五百億了每年這個是流量存量跟流量真的是沒有問題一千五百億跑到央行的外匯存底有沒有"},{"start":514.775,"end":522.137,"text":"你說1000對 順差不會啦因為供需他會供需我們中央銀行只會是在市場調節我們有買也有賣所以基本上應該是如果說有增加也增加一點點如果有減少也減少一點點一般企業不是對外賺了錢"},{"start":536.261,"end":538.943,"text":"那就跟你換台幣 不然他怎麼…不…他們很大一部分都是放在他們的外地存款而且有一部分都放在國外比例多少…"},{"start":547.759,"end":566.552,"text":"他這個比例多少我就不曉得我剛剛也就跟現在就存款在我們台灣就3100億所以都不會東單外匯存底就對了基本上以目前我們來評估是大體上應該短期之內是不會應該是不會最近"},{"start":569.45,"end":577.773,"text":"黃金一直漲啊人家好幾個委員是叫很久已經叫你買黃金結果現在國外來講的話這個黃金的人家占的美國黃金高達80%因為全世界現在對美元的信心動搖啊開始覺得儲備啊所以現在央行全世界的央媽都在買黃金沒有沒有事實上我跟委員報告"},{"start":597.461,"end":611.67,"text":"事實上這一波黃金之所以上漲主要還是在民間不是在央行央行的話大概是五個國家的央行會去買第一個是俄羅斯第二個是中國大陸第三個是印度第四個是土耳其第五個是波蘭就大概這五個央行其他國家你看韓國 日本 歐洲都沒有"},{"start":625.038,"end":644.114,"text":"所以不是主要的央行去買最近這半年來我們的央行都沒有買一塊錢黃金沒有沒有所以還是需要美金我想我們diversify我們是分散的八成是美金基本上是這樣美元資產我們隨時動態的調整"},{"start":649.482,"end":678.581,"text":"好 最後一個問題 我請教你IMF世紀全球金融穩定報告特別點名台灣對美元匯率風險程度明顯高於外匯市場可以承受的交易深度如果按照美國我們美元計價的資產我們大概三兆美金台灣就有幾億了 三兆美金除以匯市的"},{"start":679.723,"end":682.39,"text":"每個月的交易量大概45倍韓國25倍 日本20倍德國 法國 義大利各為數"},{"start":689.301,"end":694.146,"text":"這個請問你會不會 我們央行看到這個報告有什麼心裡有什麼反應我們也有 委員說的我們看到這個報告我們一直覺得MF對這個他是誤解了誤解對 誤解他說是45倍事實上我們如果說根據我們的計算的話我們是差不多大概20倍左右所以你嗤之以鼻"},{"start":713.958,"end":721.721,"text":"所以我們也不會覺得就是說我們不會非常緊張我們不會很非常緊張我們有一點異己我們不會小看IMF只是說我要跟委員報告我跟委員報告IMF基本上對有些時候呢他都對我們台灣的那個什麼那個經濟成長啊有些時候他的focus都是"},{"start":737.208,"end":746.057,"text":"都是差很多所以呢也就是說他對我們實際的情況沒有非常的了解上一次我們就有啊這一次不必要因為我們覺得很easy所以就瞧不起這個報告不是這樣子因為我們不會緊張差不多這個意思啦"},{"start":759.011,"end":760.773,"text":"好 謝謝賴司保委員總裁請回"}]}},{"id":"167230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd6188101fd28b2cfcf2216f2e6dd44a39c46b2553e5fca86ad1f1ab7bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:48:58 - 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那如果說是以這樣來講的話2500億美金的話是181.55億好 請你回座好 謝謝所以"},{"start":131.465,"end":148.767,"text":"要信用保證2500億的美金一位董事長如果以在國內操作的比例來講是100多億美金其實我們要融資這些都是國際知名的大廠你怕台積電跟你倒賬嗎你怕鴻海跟你倒賬嗎"},{"start":150.382,"end":177.039,"text":"所以將來這些投資的信用保證它其實的風險的係數可以做到比台灣的中小信保在台灣對中小微企業的信用保證還要低的這個還要高的這個槓桿因為它導的風險更低啊所以你們才會說60到100億美金之內就夠了嘛對不對然後他一直跟你宣傳說你就是政府要花2500億"},{"start":178.78,"end":182.474,"text":"那為什麼講了這麼多次他們還是硬不聽"},{"start":183.752,"end":191.537,"text":"因為他是中稅的人叫不行啦他要這樣講嘛台灣的股市剛剛破三萬兩千點啦還在跟你說台灣經濟不好啦民不聊生啦你去機場看一看排隊出國的人喔都擠滿了好這一個講不贏他說M型化社會啦很慘的人很慘啦很好的人很好啦一個再強再棒全世界經濟第一名的社會喔都會有很可憐的"},{"start":212.614,"end":239.609,"text":"弱勢者這無法避免那我們台灣就是作為一個中間政策上面中間偏左我們的社會福利努力在做社會安全網把所有的最可憐的人都要承接起來但是不要睜著眼睛說瞎話這一個經貿的談判喔在我來看應該給予鼓勵台灣因為被中共打壓很多國家沒有辦法跟我們簽FTA"},{"start":241.363,"end":267.751,"text":"沒有辦法去參加一些中共阻撓的這些所謂的東南亞經貿組織各類的經貿組織包括我們一直想要參加的泛太平洋的經濟協定都一直被中國共產黨阻撓被中國阻撓台灣的處境特別艱難這跟哪一黨執政無關啊以前國民黨也有執政過八年的期間中國也要不讓你參加嘛"},{"start":269.09,"end":285.055,"text":"那所以我們本來的關稅就比人家高啊台灣的企業家非常的了不起耶在逆境當中我們仍然有辦法跟人家去拼一場短提著一個皮包走全世界這是台灣精神嘛那這一次談判完之後我們的關稅降到跟日本跟韓國一樣韓國搓在蛋啦"},{"start":295.421,"end":324.042,"text":"因為台灣的中小企業韓國是沒有辦法比的韓國都是幾個大集團大財團嘛他們的中小企業所以美國現在向台灣取經要複製台灣科學園區的經驗這也是這今天談判中的一環我們台積電在美國投資他們把我們講成說是掏空台灣這是天大的笑話台積電在台灣的哪一個廠有關掉 有沒有關掉的"},{"start":325.865,"end":347.475,"text":"那市長有沒有關掉 台積電在台灣的廠有沒有關掉的 包圍沒有不但沒有關掉 一年還一直增加 還要增加很多廠 對不對那請問廠一直蓋一直增加 沒有關掉任何一間 偷摳台灣什麼東西啊我這間公司一直不停的擴大 從全世界後面的排名一直往前衝現在衝到全世界市值第六大"},{"start":348.973,"end":361.681,"text":"就代表我生意越做越大我的產能越來越大所以我台灣也在增加我在德國我在中國我在日本我在美國都要增加社廠嘛"},{"start":363.342,"end":391.001,"text":"那個這個是壯大的過程中必須要增加投資的地方怎麼會偷空台灣呢如果今天他移到美國是台灣要關廠台灣這些產能要收掉然後台灣的工人都失業你勉強可以講說這樣對台灣的經濟不利你台灣已經飽和做不出來了都滿滿滿了那一部分到別的國家去生產"},{"start":393.078,"end":410.386,"text":"為什麼就是掏空台灣 這種邏輯我不懂啊那被人家這樣攻擊 你們都沒有辦法用很大的聲量很清楚的聲音 讓國人能夠了解然後因為現在小眾媒體 現在網路一直給你抹黑 一直給你造謠啊所以我每次看到說什麼掏空台灣"},{"start":415.438,"end":441.513,"text":"很奇怪欸我跟你講我的有一些做工程營造的朋友跟我講說現在工人很難請的原因就是因為這些電子大廠喔他們在設廠的時候都在趕進度他寧願給兩倍三倍的工資把這些建築做這個營造的工人請去所以讓我們的公共工程還有我們的普通的營造都缺工啊那奇怪了他掏空為什麼一直在蓋廠"},{"start":443.703,"end":451.728,"text":"市長你會不會跟我回答啊為什麼一直在蓋廠然後講說是掏空呢是 我跟委員報告其實如同委員講到的就是其實台積電在台灣的投資大過於任而在其他國家的投資而且剛剛委員講得很對因為其實現在我跟你講相信政府的都在股票市場都賺大錢了台積電它的整個產業鏈很長所以許多的包括廠物這個半導設備 材料還有許多的這些化學品協力廠商也要去啊不然他才"},{"start":473.643,"end":496.235,"text":"非常多的工業類語錄精湛一定要讓他做的產品我舉個例子這些做無塵室的事要提供台積電的這些設備那台積電在美國設廠的部分他當然也要跟著去就近來做比較方便溝通也方便嘛所以是打群架的台灣的企業是打群架的跟韓國那種集團是不一樣的嘛"},{"start":497.795,"end":523.101,"text":"那總共光台積電就已經承諾1650了而且這個投資也沒有期限啊這是一個承諾錢會沒用啦就是說我將來要來這邊投資多少也沒有期間也沒有期限不知道把它講成什麼台灣要完蛋了我跟你說相信政府今天台灣股市又創新高了破三萬二了相信政府的都賺錢了"},{"start":524.79,"end":538.516,"text":"那人家講說台積電會跌到五百塊以下的喔不知道他有沒有去放空他既然他的預測這麼高明 要不要害死人當初聽他的話賣掉台積電的現在是不是都賠都沒有賺到啦甚至趕快賣了是不是都賠啦所以不要在那邊胡言亂語政治問政要基於事實在那邊亂講常常嘴巴在那邊掛起來就名不聊生台灣經濟要完蛋了 怎麼樣怎麼樣我看要完蛋的是中國啦"},{"start":555.479,"end":575.175,"text":"中國的經濟一塌糊塗莫名其妙當初馬政府時代鼓勵大膽吸盡害死很多人那個才叫真正叫掏空台灣我們投資台灣我們返鄉計畫我們壯大台灣之後我們就有能力投資全世界因為我們產能的需要要擴大"},{"start":576.611,"end":585.819,"text":"這對台灣是大好事啊台灣去年對美國出超一千五百億美金耶這站在國際貿易上啊如果美國要對付你的話這很正當的理由啊但是人家美國其實對我們沒有不好這個投資是雙向的即使說我們去美國投資台積電輝達來台灣投資Google來台灣投資這個一大堆的美國企業來台灣投資他為什麼不講說是掏空美國"},{"start":605.997,"end":622.255,"text":"去哪裡投資就是掏空那個國家他的母國那這樣的話輝達是掏空美國嗎因為輝達要來台灣設這個企業總部啊他不是在台北市嗎現在不是談了東亞的企業總部不是在那邊嗎那算不算輝達掏空美國"},{"start":624.805,"end":650.522,"text":"所以我是覺得台灣要趕快進行這個工作一年一千五百億的出鈔而且今年度看起來還會再繼續擴大一直擴大下去美國會受不了所以重要的東西趕快跟美國採購大宗物資趕快跟美國採購能夠行有餘力可以投資去美國投資做貿易帳金融帳的平衡不然台灣的這個貿易出鈔這麼多"},{"start":654.406,"end":665.17,"text":"對全世界的國際貿易來講是對人家不公平啦光只要想自己都不要換位思考站在美國人的角度你一年賺我這麼多錢你是用這種態度對待我所以我是覺得我個人將心比心我覺得美國對我們是因為很需要台灣這一個夥伴所以他對我們這個條件是給的很好喔在我來看啦"},{"start":679.937,"end":688.567,"text":"問一個最嚴重的問題 萬一本院沒有通過這個協定會怎麼樣 萬一啊不是啦 你就照實回答嘛 我就不搖你 我就問你說萬一通不過會怎麼辦嘛"},{"start":701.884,"end":724.321,"text":"像委員報告因為這個協定要能夠生效是要雙方都完成內部程序之後才能生效所以如果我方沒有辦法通過的話我方就沒有辦法完成我方的內部程序我看你們在說不完喔你是怕得罪誰啊說實話會有什麼問題沒有通過台灣大災難啦我跟你講這個東西沒有通過"},{"start":729.127,"end":752.494,"text":"回到以前的疊加 關稅跟以前的條件一樣以前罵得要死說那個條件那麼差現在條件要變比較好還要不要考慮要不要簽還說這個是掏空台灣我跟你講 全國人民睜著眼睛在看所有的產業睜著眼睛在看沒有過的話 台灣倒大霉啦這工業啦 大家加油喔 謝謝"},{"start":755.325,"end":756.266,"text":"好 謝謝吳秉瑞委員 謝謝接下來請賴世寶"}]}},{"id":"167229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd618810b993dba2e42ede9f784d0199fe87f28a4a86d8c93a01be2129602ffc9a9b6cbf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:44:16 - 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我們有請顧部長"},{"start":7.914,"end":32.973,"text":"部長早部長我們今天還是接續要討論的是國防預算的一個相關編列這不只是我們國內的這個民眾非常關心也是國際友盟觀察我們自我防衛的一個決心一項非常重要的指標那我們現在不只是面對中共灰色地帶一個侵擾的一個升級那同時也是因應中國可能由訓轉嚴甚至由嚴轉戰的一個嚴峻敵情"},{"start":37.657,"end":59.837,"text":"看到這個在印太地區其他有盟國家包括日本、韓國、菲律賓再到美國、澳洲等等都對國防預算進行檢討加大對於國防的一個投資來因應這個中共的軍事擴張台灣當然更有迫切的需求要儘速來提升我們自我防衛的一個能力"},{"start":60.498,"end":80.543,"text":"那我們回顧政府所編列的整體國防預算從2020年的4000億到去年的6470億再到今年希望能夠超過GDP3%的一個門檻當中也包括還在執行的新式戰機的採購海空戰力的提升國安任性等"},{"start":81.283,"end":105.766,"text":"的特別預算那自從行政院在去年11月提出這項強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力的一個特別條例至今還沒有進入我們委員會來審查所以我想還是就幾個問題來跟部長您做討論其中我們現行的這個公務預算它的規模為何不能夠"},{"start":108.532,"end":124.57,"text":"來應對我們目前的這個威脅基於什麼樣的原因必須要透過跨年期的這個特別預算來執行那其次當我們的這個特別預算在國防支出的佔比有所增加我們在相關作業維持的這個支出上"},{"start":125.271,"end":152.141,"text":"是不是能夠趕得上武器採購一併提升以確保我們裝備的這個戰力這部分是不是請部長做簡要的說明我想分兩點第一點就是說假設我們有一個八年期的一個特別預算的話這整個的預算的規模它會是穩定的我們的預算的整個完整性跟穩定性就能夠確保那你如果排入年度預算那每年的年度預算這個"},{"start":154.062,"end":166.177,"text":"規模就沒有辦法有一個明白的一個確定那是第一點第二點就是說年度預算如果我們將所有的這些我們的整體的需求都納入到年度預算的話"},{"start":168.632,"end":184.914,"text":"這個佔的這個排擠的這個如果全數由公預算編列會佔政府總預算會近高達百分之二十九那二十九那等於是會影響其他的民生經濟社福教育等的一個推動"},{"start":185.695,"end":211.172,"text":"所以我們一方面遵守財政紀律法將這個來來編列那一方面我們將這個特別預算用一個八年期讓他的整個預算的來源能夠穩定那經費能夠完整那這樣那當然我們每一在特別條例通過之後我們所做籌過的項目也是要經過大院來來來逐項的審核核准同意那我想一旦我想如果能夠"},{"start":211.852,"end":239.103,"text":"有這樣子的一個八年級的這個這個特別條例的預算的話那我們另外年度預算的部分我想剛剛委員也提到其實各國都在預算的規模都在持續的增加那我們也要增加但是我們增加的這個幅度再搭配特別預算的話我想這個兩者結合才能夠真正的整體的來增強我們的這個集戰力好"},{"start":239.656,"end":261.671,"text":"那在這項特別預算規劃上從今年開始要執行了那在時間緊迫的問題上我想這個先前我們國防部也提出事件如果在預算審議的這個程序上有所延宕恐怕會導致我們裝備的這個交貨期被其他國家插隊影響的時間未來可能是以年"},{"start":263.012,"end":291.023,"text":"來計算這也反映到我們當前國際地緣政治的一個緊張導致全球這個軍工產能吃緊的情形並不是有錢就隨時都能買到我們想要的武器而是要和其他國家來做排隊那這一部分我想請教部長如果我們在失在失去在這個產線上的一個排序哪些武器可能會特別受到衝擊那對於我們整備的這個急診又有多大的影響另外"},{"start":291.621,"end":307.047,"text":"除了目前已經知會我們國會的五項裝備還有部分的這個案項還在由美方審查當中那我們是否已經確保能夠獲得剩餘的這些項目包委員我這邊做個簡單的說明"},{"start":309.264,"end":325.257,"text":"我們目前編列這些項目已經智慧國會的這些幾乎每一項都是全球各國接下來會大量採購的因為目前各國面對的主要威脅包含了中共 俄羅斯跟北韓"},{"start":326.414,"end":345.337,"text":"那在這三個國家裡面防空飛彈跟反彈道飛彈的需求幾乎是一致的那在地面作戰上面輕便的反裝甲武器還有精準火砲的這個部分尤其是15公里彈藥的這個部分也是很明顯的一個需求"},{"start":346.243,"end":362.512,"text":"那要跟委員補充報告的是我們接下來發價書因為已經過了30天應該在近期即將就會拿到如果我們在45天之內一般來說45天的效期之內沒有處理"},{"start":363.868,"end":379.098,"text":"那理論上可以延長一次但是那不是一定的如果美方不同意發價書延長那我們勢必得整個程序要再走一遍那這個耗費的時間我們上次有跟委員報過我們從"},{"start":381.119,"end":400.168,"text":"去年大概3月份左右提出這個需求一直到12月才撤回國會中間耗了8個多月的時間如果我們後面在時程上面延宕到發價書後續跟美方議談跟簽署的時間的話他所拖延的時間會更進一步的擴大"},{"start":402.637,"end":429.408,"text":"好 那我們這次提出來也是要強調要強化我們國防自主和發展軍工的產業尤其是要扶植我們國內無人載具和AI的產業那近期我們總統也有提到國防特別預算不僅守護國家的安全更是要推動我們產業升級的一個重要動能而除了對美採購之外預算當中也有一定比例是要留給我們國內產制"},{"start":431.294,"end":456.508,"text":"那在規劃這個籌購的品項當中有超過20萬架的各式無人機會優先以我們國產為主那在這相當於考驗我們國內廠商的這個產能是否能夠負擔以及供應鏈的整個體系的建構是否足夠完整那不論是對於我們軍工產能的一個擴大或是給予我們國內廠商的一個協助應該都是由國防部"},{"start":457.228,"end":478.156,"text":"和相關單位跨部會一起來合作這部分我想和部長您討論的是國內我們軍工產業的這個規模還在成長當中那對於打造這個飛鴻供應鏈如何擴大我們業者參與的這個動機或是提供這個測試的場域以及接軌國際供應鏈等等我們國防部有什麼樣的一個實際規劃或作為"},{"start":479.597,"end":505.69,"text":"能夠進一步簡單的說明嗎是 薛委員我想剛剛委員提到有兩點非常重要一個是非紅供應鏈非紅供應鏈的部分特別在無人機上面有一些相關的這些不管是通訊導航這些都會涉及到如果我們不排除紅色的供應鏈的話我們會在這個無人機的這個打造上面這個會值得看慮那所以這個不是只有我們擔心包括美國"},{"start":506.63,"end":532.292,"text":"包括其他的印太區的國家甚至歐洲國家也都擔心所以在無人的載具上面打造一個飛鴻供應鏈是相當重要的那因為過去大家也都知道在無人機的市場上面這個以現在來講民用的大將無人機他所佔的一個市場的佔有率是相當相當的高的所以我們國防部要建立一個長單的需求然後來"},{"start":535.055,"end":548.048,"text":"來讓這個我們的產業願意來投入這個產線這是第一點那第二點無人機它有一個迭代創新的一個特色也就是說我們不是像說這個馬尼瓜M1A2"},{"start":548.849,"end":563.74,"text":"那我們就用mint那他性能升級可能可以但是是相當有限但是無人機是非常迭代創新的所以我們今天談到一個差異化的全收集管理所以無人機我們會有依照軍種的不同需求陸軍有陸軍的需求"},{"start":566.261,"end":586.327,"text":"這個海軍亂隊有海軍亂隊的需求這個海軍有海軍的需求那甚至空軍也有一些比較大型的一些需求等等那這些相關的這些需求我們把它納入各種的無人機的這個硬體的面那同時在硬體面之外我們要將軟體的更新感測跟通聯系統的升級等等都要依照科技發展的"},{"start":587.728,"end":596.778,"text":"這個進程來即時提升那這整個的這種無人機的這個籌貨的模式其實會跟過去傳統的武器會有相當的不一樣那這一個部分就要靠國內的"},{"start":599.094,"end":619.805,"text":"這些產業他願意投入產線那同時他也願意不管是跟我們既有的不管是中研院或者是其他這些單位來合作同時國外國外的部分也要加入然後形成合作那同時一個技術轉移那最最重要的就是說"},{"start":620.565,"end":648.851,"text":"要在地的量能要能夠提升之後我們這個國防自主才能夠維護因為一旦面臨任何的緊急狀況的時候我們如果能夠依照烏克蘭的經驗我們能夠在地的自主生產這對於整個的防衛作戰的韌性的強化是佔了一個非常關鍵重要的地位好 那我想面對這個敵情的一個威脅日據的嚴重那我們"},{"start":650.73,"end":659.861,"text":"國防部要如何在最短的時間內來提升我們的戰力爭取相關的軍工產線的排序我想這部分還是要請我們國防部"},{"start":661.69,"end":689.723,"text":"接續的這個去做努力我們做整體的規劃然後也不斷的會持續來精進檢討那在這個國防安全方面我想還是要強化我們自我的這個國防能力才能夠真正的來防衛到我們國家的安全我相信這是大家都能夠認同也都是正確的一個方向那敵人的這個威脅還有這個敵人的這個武力的這個"},{"start":691.084,"end":719.045,"text":"矩爭 對我們國家的一個安全的一個這個恫嚇我想這是我們目前在整個這個社會氛圍上我們都感受得到所以也唯有這個備戰才能夠止戰我相信這也是很正確的一個方向人家在說的這個 靠爹你若無生命然後你自己如果沒有麻煩的話我想這個強權國家對於我們的吞噬對於我們的一個威脅會日據的嚴重這也是不變的定律"},{"start":719.945,"end":742.141,"text":"還是要懇請我們所有的委員不分朝野能夠對於我們國防預算的一個支持能夠盡快讓我們相關的預算通過之後讓我們國防部盡快來對於相關武器的採購可以有一個更加接續的一個程序來進行好 謝謝 敬請大院能夠支持以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167228","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167228","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd61881029b5fac24a0426b82e6dd44a39c46b254a86d8c93a01be21f6611687e07821165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:34:56 - 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女士先生 各位同仁是不是請我們中央銀行楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":30.315,"end":50.286,"text":"總裁你好我請教因為美國宣布對台灣關稅降至15%那台灣承諾由企業自主投資2500億的美元那政府信用保證2500億元換取對等關稅有20%進一步降至15%並且不疊加稅率取得日韓歐盟相同的最"},{"start":59.291,"end":79.786,"text":"惠國的待遇那總裁當行政院對這次關稅協議談判結果表示滿意的同時那我請問你認為是不是有哪些產業例如像國內的汽車產業可能因為這次關稅談判造成市場開放"},{"start":81.027,"end":93.871,"text":"而發生負面的衝擊影響對於這些可能因為市場開放受程度不等的這些衝擊的產業政府到底有哪些因應的對策那個總裁你的看法呢報告委員這個題目應該是要來請教因為我說實在那個經濟部經貿辦公室是是是"},{"start":110.427,"end":126.556,"text":"最起碼你們要說清楚講明白那個停一下他那個經貿辦公室沒有人來有執密那個 執密來市長或者那個經貿辦公室的代表還有經濟部來你們要說清楚講明白"},{"start":129.076,"end":144.553,"text":"好跟委員報告那這一次因應這個美國頓等關稅我們在立法院的支持下我們經濟部也編列了460億元的這個任期特別預算來協助我們產業因應這一次美國關稅那大概有分成幾項幾項措施包括貸款還有"},{"start":147.516,"end":171.831,"text":"出國的加碼保證還有轉型升級的補助以及市場拓銷的補助大概就這四項我們來因應讓這些傳統產業它能夠來做因應因為現在最嚴重就是什麼因為你經過這九個多月那你包括我們的很多傳統產業包括工具機 水五金 腳踏車 蝴蝶籃等等"},{"start":173.231,"end":193.956,"text":"因為有很多的客戶已經流失了經過這九個多月因為日本韓國跟我們不一樣又是我們鄰近的國家那這些衝擊啊到底我們他們到底可不可以回復因為已經移轉客戶了你就是回復百分之十五不疊加人家不一定會要你的東西"},{"start":195.276,"end":223.815,"text":"你有什么看法根文报告上个礼拜五卓院长也到台南去跟汽车零组件的业者来座谈其中有一家业者他是专门做汽车改装件的零组件一听到就说我们的关税已经谈成书不叠加他们的董事长马上飞到美国去接单所以这代表说我们这样的一个谈判其实对订单的回流是有帮助的那个去接单问题是"},{"start":226.087,"end":233.075,"text":"你像那些傳統產業包括汽車到底汽車有沒有確定在這個裡面"},{"start":235.502,"end":257.501,"text":"这个零组件的部分我们现在争取到的是15%不叠加那相较于我们的其他竞争对手国来讲我们有相当大的这个税率的优惠我们原先的税率是汽车零组件是26.25%现在一下子降到15%跟欧盟日本跟韩国的这样的一个基础"},{"start":258.221,"end":275.634,"text":"是一樣的所以這個就剛我提到就為什麼那個董事長急於這個跑到美國再去這個跟客戶洽談這個訂單就是因為稅率大幅降低有利於我們這樣的一個條件那以前報導那個阿拉斯加那個液化天然氣管線需要耗資440億的美元"},{"start":279.676,"end":305.744,"text":"這個美國川普總統也希望日本韓國跟台灣一起來參與那我請問依你們的看法因為畢竟中油是你們管的這個阿拉斯加天然氣這個傳言到底是在規劃中還是有沒有在這一次整個承諾裡面來扣除到底有沒有要說清楚講明白跟委員報告這個其實中油已經跟這個阿拉斯加那家公司已經有簽了一個"},{"start":306.464,"end":323.531,"text":"簽了這個有沒有從裡面購出嘛你總不能一直加上去啊當然我們是希望就是說未來這個整個油氣的供應要能夠穩定啦所以我們希望從這個美國的這個阿拉斯加那一條航道是相對來講是比較安全的"},{"start":325.071,"end":352.338,"text":"問題是不要賠熱婦人又責兵這個裡面你不要說我們跟他這次談沒有把這個納進去那個對我們來講講實在話那個實在不應該啦對不對你不能我們身為國會的議員民意代表就是幫人民來勘請政府的荷包不是讓你們為所欲為但是這次這樣簽法以後講實在話很多民間大家都在講"},{"start":353.339,"end":359.109,"text":"講的你是陪了夫人又責兵因為我們跟人家的軍具體那個一比較落差太大了"},{"start":359.961,"end":369.908,"text":"對不對我相信你們也很清楚是跟我們報告其實中友其實他們還在評估當中也就是說如果這個投資具可行性的話我想後面還是會有"},{"start":390.161,"end":413.423,"text":"我們為什麼什麼都要聽人家的對不對我們要有自主性啊你像那個韓國日本甚至於現在歐洲對這個川普很多作為啊他們都不能接受對不對不是人家講於我們作善人家對不對講什麼我們就配合什麼那個講實在話你們身為政府的官員應該要有原則有尊嚴啊"},{"start":415.509,"end":435.517,"text":"我們會跟美方那邊來爭取如果真的有做成投資投資這樣的一個決定的話那絕對會是加到我們的投資的額度裡面來我是希望說你們要站在人民的角度不是人家講什麼我們什麼都配合我請國發會國發會也來列舉我們高副主委"},{"start":442.932,"end":444.394,"text":"那個總裁請回吧在"},{"start":449.465,"end":476.575,"text":"國發會這個關稅協議中的2500億信用保證是由國發會主責針對這項的信用保證這個信保的機制國發會提出4點來規劃說明整個融資總額度保證對象專款來源以出資方式打算由國發基金來出資並邀請公股民營銀行來共同參與 那我請問"},{"start":477.495,"end":483.61,"text":"主委 那個國發會要如何來契合這些到海外投資的產業要如何"},{"start":485.639,"end":507.43,"text":"跟委員報告所有申請的企業都必須要跟融資保證中心來提供他所有申請企業的相關資料我們也會設置一個融資保證的委員會到時候融資保證基金合約相關的文件之後都會送到融資保證委員會來進行融資保證的評估"},{"start":510.652,"end":534.32,"text":"所以我們會確保我們整個的將來的對銀行對企業的受信其實我們有一套的所謂的減核的這些行政的程序因為那個對比經濟部中小企業信用這個信保基金的組織執掌本席對於國發會是否有足夠的能力來控管海外融資的這些投資過程與結果"},{"start":536.799,"end":558.708,"text":"講實在話本席是感到存疑啦再者海外投資後續如果發生個案的追長對於信用保證下的這個債權查封執行會不會因為時空差距而發生追長無門的結果會不會不會我們會有一我們會有一套審核的機制剛才已經有跟委員報告過"},{"start":559.988,"end":581.954,"text":"因為畢竟國發基金過去執行率並不好尤其有有甚者還頻頻踩雷那我請問跟委員報告我們到時候要成立一個國家融資保證中心其實我們國發基金只是擔任出資方"},{"start":583.655,"end":599.664,"text":"目前國家如果要依照現行的國家融資保證機制的話國家融資保證中心的執行單位是輸出入銀行因為國外基金優化投錢投後管理的做法會不會落實在這些海外"},{"start":601.747,"end":625.177,"text":"投資的產業上實際上要怎麼樣去操作海外的集合我認為這個很重要那個你也來做一個說明我想謝謝委員的提醒那我想因為我們不管是國家融資保證基金做融資保證委員會這相關的機制的話我們都一定會在後續研擬的過程中間我們會審慎的處理包括委員講的投錢"},{"start":626.778,"end":644.499,"text":"投前的評估投中投後等等的相關的審查信用這些保證對象的一些信用的徵信我們都會審慎的處理請委員放心在面對美國要求台灣付出如此龐大的投資金額相當於15兆台幣"},{"start":645.6,"end":672.935,"text":"五年中央政府的總預算規模台灣半導體產業與相關上下游的這些供應鏈將大量資金移往美國未來可能會排擠整個台灣產地這個產業的升級資源對美國投資大幅增加對台灣投資大幅度的減少將不利整個台灣未來的發展那我國政府"},{"start":673.855,"end":691.933,"text":"包括你們談判代表卻沒有告訴大家美國的要求完成投資期限在何時這個讓大家也十分憂心因為你沒有實現的那請我們經濟部包括經貿辦公室你們要做跟大家做說明"},{"start":692.642,"end":710.522,"text":"好 各位委員報告其實200億美金的這個是企業的自主投資而且是應客戶的要求也會分年逐步的推動那其實我想我們知道說其實以台積電來說現在已經成為全球第六大的企業了"},{"start":711.042,"end":727.217,"text":"那他是面對AI的基礎建設強勁需求他其實一定要做全球佈局那目前我們75%的營收台積電來自於北美客戶所以他在美國設廠其實應該是某個程度上也可以紓解台灣資源難以支應的這些困擾而且我們這次是雙向投資所以到時候"},{"start":734.543,"end":745.646,"text":"美國其實也會來投資台灣的AI還有這些半導體還有五大信賴產業所以我們認為其實用動態的觀點來看其實我們覺得200億美元對企業的自主投資其實反而有助於台美所謂戰略夥伴關係的鞏固其實應該不會對台灣所謂產生對台灣的投資其實有減損的這些效應然後另外的200億的"},{"start":764.492,"end":789.988,"text":"2500億的信用保證額度跟前面那個是完全不一樣的這只是我們用信用保證的方式支持金融機構提供最高到2500億的企業授信額度所以我們政府提出的包括我們國發基金跟公營跟民營企業我們提出的所謂的保證專款最多我想副院長有講到是62.5億到100億之間"},{"start":792.87,"end":807.888,"text":"好啦我希望最重要就是我們身為民意代表國會議員就是要幫人民勘請荷包你們那個大原則一定要保住不是人家講義你們作善現在民眾的感覺就這樣子"},{"start":808.789,"end":829.323,"text":"對不對 為所欲為那你沒有把人民放在眼裡沒有把 我們是希望說經濟好起來兩岸和平你不是人家講什麼我們就去配合什麼我們一定會確保台灣的競爭優勢那台灣在全球供應鏈的重要的角色請委員放心好 謝謝好 謝謝林德福委員接下來請吳秉瑞委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd6188102c051b978394ec0c784d0199fe87f28a4a86d8c93a01be21332e030545e112f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:32:30 - 09:43:55","影片長度":"00:11:25","會議時間":"2026-01-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「我國武器採購策略暨國防預算(公務、基金暨特別預算)編列結構之適切性」，併請經濟部、國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-26","start_time":"2026-01-26T09:32:30+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-26T09:43:55+08:00","duration":685,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-4-35-28"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":1.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.70159375,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":2.0559687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":2.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.73096875,"end":3.8953437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.30784375,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.016593750000002,"end":22.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.69409375,"end":26.035343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.37284375,"end":30.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.11471875,"end":34.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.09721875,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.34346875,"end":62.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.03784375000001,"end":64.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.86471875000001,"end":71.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.05346875000001,"end":93.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.69971875,"end":106.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.22096875000001,"end":111.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.22034375000001,"end":118.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.42596875000001,"end":120.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.97409375000001,"end":122.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.31971875,"end":127.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.87596875000001,"end":131.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.48284375,"end":142.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.13096875000002,"end":144.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.97034375,"end":146.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.75909375,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.06221875,"end":155.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.93909375,"end":158.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.49971875,"end":167.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.42659375000002,"end":175.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.64909375000002,"end":179.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.74971875,"end":182.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.19221875000002,"end":189.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.60034375,"end":190.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.33346875,"end":207.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.84659375,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.05721875,"end":210.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.13721875000002,"end":212.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.55471875,"end":218.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.88284375,"end":219.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.85721875000002,"end":228.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.17659375000002,"end":232.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.65284375000002,"end":236.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.34846875000002,"end":241.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.88346875000002,"end":242.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.92971875,"end":243.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.09409375,"end":245.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.41034375,"end":264.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":265.33971875000003,"end":273.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.54096875,"end":278.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.24471875,"end":280.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.42596875000004,"end":285.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.26471875000004,"end":286.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.15909375,"end":288.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.89721875000004,"end":298.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.39346875,"end":303.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":303.73034375000003,"end":306.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.10534375000003,"end":308.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.62409375000004,"end":310.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.96971875,"end":328.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.36346875000004,"end":395.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.71159375,"end":406.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.14034375,"end":408.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.46909375,"end":410.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEA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陈伟好部长您好刚才听取了报告我特别今天借这个机会回应您刚才讲的上周美国发布了它的国防战略那么是根据国家安全战略的上层指导美国在2017年就把四年期国防总检讨把它废止了然后每四年公布一次"},{"start":35.14,"end":62.076,"text":"美国的国家防卫战略然后后面再有军事战略请教部长我们有没有办法要想修正我们的QDR因为这里面的内容主轴是有落差的那我们现在看了美国的这个国家安全战略那美国的国防战略后面还有军事战略出来那以战规师的角度我们会不会要跟美国做同步的修正这个概念"},{"start":65.192,"end":93.04,"text":"鮑遠我們相關的整個戰略規劃的部分事實上都一直在做整體的檢討跟考量那主要的部分我們就目前敵情威脅陡峰的狀況下我們是針對我們的防衛作戰構想跟上層次的軍事戰略上面去做檢討至於全班性的國防戰略的這個部分後面我們還是會依據我們整個戰略規劃的腳步來做一定程度的檢討"},{"start":94.901,"end":110.599,"text":"我提个建议就是我们去年出版的QDR比较上一个版本从48页进步到59页那谈国防战略军事战略从1.5页进步到4页这是有进步的那去年出的国防报告书"},{"start":111.42,"end":131.352,"text":"这个白皮书那么谈到国防战略跟军事战略从4页增加到6页有精进但是呢如果对应美国的这个国防战略的话我们面对这个重大的挑战这个内容啊我觉得还是要强化那么现在回到今天的主题就是谈到了这个"},{"start":132.723,"end":148.791,"text":"我们面对的挑战这是越来越严重因此的经费增加是所必然在刚才的过程中间前面的委员提到了就是说freedom is not free"},{"start":151.089,"end":154.752,"text":"所以英文不能只講前句後面還有它的但書同樣就是說我們在軍事採購的過程中間也有很多的"},{"start":168.544,"end":189.643,"text":"想定跟立案条件那我们谈到无人机无人机是未来作战的一个趋势这是非常重要的那在报告里面也列选了不管是从国外进口的这个军售的乃至于商售合作在国内生产20余万架无人机我相信在陆军的使用可能会超过一半陆军参谋长是"},{"start":197.652,"end":219.581,"text":"這個前面的這個論述我們完全是支持國防部的想法那陸軍是在2026年前7月要編成了這個大隊了但是實際上這種輕型的不管是徵收的或是攻擊型或者消耗式的無人機陸軍應該有佔到20萬架的一半以上吧江進"},{"start":220.922,"end":235.671,"text":"也是说这个状况下人员的训练的年度这个训练的原额额度还要强化要增加我们可以看一个就是说乌克兰这个俄乌战争中间他们的无人机消耗"},{"start":236.471,"end":264.396,"text":"每天2000架但是光在乌冬的战场就是台湾的两倍半的面积那我们的无人机的作业运用构想应该是在探案防卫第一线这个是消耗性是很大的因此你在无人机的储存库储料配件还有它的这个所谓的通讯频道在前面的预制规划先要跟不只是"},{"start":265.396,"end":288.01,"text":"我们军用的频道那很多的民谣频道啊先要做沟通因为这个时候平时跟暂时他是不用的不一样的如果你觉得我们的wifi平时可用暂时不一定可靠那另外呢这个乌克兰的无人机啊确实发挥了很大的效益可是如果没有"},{"start":288.951,"end":310.471,"text":"这个新链也就是说Starlink去support它的无人机的功效都没有办法发挥那我们因为目前还没有这个新链的这个合约当然在这个所谓这个Amazon未来的这个Blue Origin里面可能会有4508个卫星那我们能不能合作"},{"start":311.212,"end":328.113,"text":"得到平宽这个未来是要共同努力所以无人机的消耗它是一个必然的但是年度人员的训练跟料配件的储存跟你的库房整建我觉得陆军在这个方面请强化您回答一下"},{"start":329.417,"end":350.678,"text":"包委員 我就幾個面向向您報告第一個 也有人質疑說在這個在需求上面這麼數量這麼高的無人機我們這全軍的編制還不及這個數量怎麼可能會操作那我在這邊說明一下這個數量的計算它包含到我們平常的訓練的需求還有所謂的戰備存量"},{"start":351.418,"end":370.605,"text":"而且他最主要也考慮到了無人機的迭代他並不是一次的獲得這裡面除了硬體的需求軟體的更新還有他相關的通聯都必須要有擴充性所以在這個方面是有納入規劃的那第二個部分有關於整個無人機的庫儲那他包含到"},{"start":372.105,"end":394.552,"text":"彈庫或是所謂的特定軍品庫房還有包含到庫房的整建修建在我們的整個規劃裡面都也有同步的納入規劃最後一點像委員報告就是說有關於無人機的頻率那我們在軍用無人機上面是屬於專屬的頻道那另外我們現在也在針對整個頻譜管理制定相關的單位來負責以上報告"},{"start":396.792,"end":425.385,"text":"是那后面我特别用这张图提供您参考我们讲要去掉非红这个供应链那这里面还有几项通讯晶片这个非控软体含AI热像仪GPS的晶片非控晶片雷射测距这个部分中科院会跟国内产业甚至跟国外做合作因为这有一部分并不是在国内生产的院长您这边在这个地方强化解释一下"},{"start":428.787,"end":450.593,"text":"剛好今天有經濟部的官員出席我們這幾年從經濟部的無人機統籌型預算裡面獲得不少研發的經費這些經費不是只有我們自己在研究是跟國內的業者共同在開發研究這些晶片大概都已經到了相當成熟的程度只是後面的製程安排要必須要由我們的國內的生產廠商他願意把他的產線讓給我們來做製程的安排"},{"start":453.212,"end":468.485,"text":"这个要国内就是产业企业国防总监我们大家共同努力我们最后一个图片特别讲就是讲到台湾之盾实际上我们因为不同层级的sensor征收器"},{"start":469.486,"end":498.183,"text":"那么还有不同的载台平台武器发射那要透过一个完整的网络架构链路那包括多轨追踪情资融合链路整合要产生一个复合同向也就是共同的图像这是一个组合起来涵盖台湾的周遭实际上我们的雷达sensor可能有几十座上百座有固定的有机动的那么目前IBCS的概念也导入进来了"},{"start":499.042,"end":520.543,"text":"可是呢因为我们在太空方面的能力是比较薄弱所以要靠美国的协助这个DSP卫星预警配合我们长程预警雷达产生的这个网路架构那我上次也跟大家讲过了去中心化不是目标只是你的方法手段可是现在呢已经强调了我们要建立啊"},{"start":521.67,"end":549.636,"text":"叫什么联合火力协调中心那这个火协中心的目的就是C5ISR加T因为对于固定目标的反制像海马斯是陆上目标你有坐标可是对于机动目标的critical timing那就必须要很短的时间做协调因此这个步骤我们看到跟美方合作成立这个构想这是很好的"},{"start":550.296,"end":562.39,"text":"那么国军这个持恒强化战力也在逐步往前推这里面有一个关键的我们一直在讲不对称战力不对称战力里面有一项就是人才的培养"},{"start":563.277,"end":592.697,"text":"因为你的硬体装备啊,包括DP受训啊,我们这个都了解这个重要性,可是后续的原额跟经费啊,这个要大幅的提支,你比方讲我们原来买的这个海马斯M142,原来是28加1,现在再买82,就已经111套了,那它的目标的分配啊,跟鱼叉这个火鞋中间,就是产生了一个,这很重要,那不同的装备,不同的界面,问题呢,有,但是要克服,要解决,"},{"start":593.337,"end":621.364,"text":"所以在人才培养上面也就是说从各学校的这个宾科学校专业教育到联合子餐教育的准则教范这一定要赶快我想国防大学这个陆院的这个UTM坐标图纸图那个该精进了吧现在演习还是把纸图拼起来的那你将来怎么样学校毕业的人去配合我们新装备呢这个国防大学您做个简短回答"},{"start":623.786,"end":651.568,"text":"跟委員報告現在我們這個各子彈學院現在都有把這些相關的新興的武器啊都已經納入課程裡面了然後有相關那個剛才講到那個UTM座標啊還有那個相關那個共同圖像也都納入課程裡面然後現在那個那個最新的圖資啊我們都有配合我們國防部情事室那邊都有做一個申請申請跟更新然後後續啊所有的硬體硬體跟軟體啊設備啊我們都會有一個期程來做一個相應的一個一個規劃跟"},{"start":652.57,"end":653.173,"text":"跟他更換心"},{"start":655.184,"end":684.504,"text":"我想裝備的獲得籌貨很重要持續後面的維保也重要但操作人員更重要在這個部分我覺得要大家共同努力部長您請做一個簡短回應我想剛剛委員的指教都很正確那有一些相關的一些事項我想我們必須要私下跟委員再做說明但是剛剛委員提到人員的培訓的部分當然是裡面非常非常重要的一塊是以上謝謝大家共同努力"}]}},{"id":"167226","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167226","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd61881006a9c6e594e63e3d784d0199fe87f28a4a86d8c93a01be212cfcc21c557743ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:16:56 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有請顧部長請顧部長羅委員"},{"start":12.678,"end":15.899,"text":"部長早部長這個會期即將結束這禮拜是這個會期的最後一個禮拜結果我們的政府總預算一毛錢都沒有省強化防衛任性跟不對稱戰略的國防特別預算也是一再的被丟包在這個程序委員會"},{"start":33.684,"end":36.386,"text":"國防部今天的專案報告也說得非常的清楚國防預算區分為國務預算、特種基金跟特別預算然後每個預算各自其實是承擔了不同的功能要互相搭配才能夠比較完整來健全我國的"},{"start":54.802,"end":57.323,"text":"防衛能力那之前呢我看到這個台灣立志協會TIA做了一個民調他這民調有提到就是說有70.7%的這個國人認為呢目前國防我國的國防是不足以保護安全"},{"start":70.948,"end":76.031,"text":"那再來有62.5%的民眾認為呢 阻擋國防特別預算是非常的不恰當的那我也希望說在野黨的同仁們 可以看到這一份民調其實大家的目前阻擋這個國防特別預算也好 或者是總預算也好其實呢 國人其實是不認同的"},{"start":93.022,"end":111.295,"text":"再來我有看到報告裡面有提到就是115年國防部的公務預算已經是創了歷年的最高如果想要快速的來提升戰力的話我們目前的國防公務預算是沒有辦法來滿足新增案的需求"},{"start":111.895,"end":115.957,"text":"那面對中國武力的威脅,國防特別預算就是要來補強既有預算的不足提供實效性資源的預助。可是不管是公務預算也好,特別預算或特別條例,現在都是被擱置的。"},{"start":131.384,"end":146.311,"text":"那面對中國這麼嚴厲的武力威脅我本席真的非常的遺憾在野黨的委員是視而不見一再的阻擋那好115年度的總預算卡關的話會影響了一些像新興的一些案件其實是會延宕的甚至到目前是沒有辦法來做建制的像這個具有阻嚇戰略的海馬斯、魚叉、飛彈等等"},{"start":160.038,"end":168.403,"text":"這些到目前為止都還沒有,他就是沒有辦法進行下一步那還有具有不對稱戰力的這個標槍,刺針飛彈等等那當然在野黨口口聲聲說,哎呀我們要我們要照顧這個官兵啊我們要提升這個戰鬥人員的這個戰鬥能力啊可是你們看一看,像這個有被擱置的這個預算裡面其中有88億的F16的訓練等等"},{"start":185.786,"end":214.703,"text":"這個很重要耶 當我們這些戰鬥人員在執行任務的時候 扎實的訓練才能夠保障他們的安全啊那我們說我們要照顧官兵 可是呢 連他們這老舊的這個營舍你都不願意來做修繕所以動不動就說要提升他們這個薪資過去說實在過去以來我們提升了多少次薪資 可是真正要保護他們的安全 真正要照顧到他們的生活的這部分呢卻是呢 乍也黨是一毛都不願意"},{"start":215.364,"end":231.824,"text":"真的是非常的糟糕明天就是再一次的程序委員會了就算是順利下野黨良心發現這個順利來復位的話說實在這會期也來不及來選了因為這個禮拜五我們這個會期就結束了那再來還有提到的就是這個"},{"start":233.506,"end":251.073,"text":"國防的這個特別預算在上個禮拜一的時候我們王定宇召委就安排了一次的這個機密會議可是機密會議結束之後還是有很多委員說我們真的不知道要買什麼其實全院的113位的立法委員都可以去參與上個禮拜一的這個如果你想真正了解的話都可以去參加這一次的機密會議很遺憾的真的是寥寥無幾可是"},{"start":262.577,"end":281.068,"text":"我們真的覺得說真的國家的安全真的比其他任何的這個利益都還是重要我們不希望說國家的安全國防的軍備作為在野黨跟國外勢力一個交換的這個利益這是讓人家覺得非常遺憾的這個地方"},{"start":281.408,"end":284.371,"text":"再來我想請教的就是說我們一直有提到國防自主未來可能我們要成為非紅產業鏈的一環我有看到前陣子有專家指出主要的武器裝備從接裝到處理平均使用的年限大約是15到20年甚至會更長"},{"start":302.987,"end":306.529,"text":"那這段期間呢 這彈藥的補充 戶群的維修零組件更換 跟這個維保能量呢我們沒有辦法一直呢 到目前為止我們是高度仰賴國外 所以如果遇到這個交付延遲 政治限制或戰術封鎖的話就可能是國防自主的一個結構性的風險"},{"start":320.174,"end":323.875,"text":"因此像國防預算 我們其實戰略的意義是把握對外採購的使用同時也要帶動國內的產製技術轉移跟產業鏈的建構讓軍購跟國防自主能夠平衡的發展當然我們也希望能夠帶動國內產業鏈的發展"},{"start":340.04,"end":361.247,"text":"那就想請教的一個就是說當然最近也看到有很多的國人在質疑就是說像我們國防部在採購這個軍品軍備或勞務這個採購的時候呢我們都會用比如說有些公開的部分我們用公開招標的方式來尋找協力廠商那大家很擔心的很擔心的就是說這些廠商會不會成為中共刺探然後呢鎖定滲透的這個目標請問部長"},{"start":369.468,"end":382.685,"text":"跟委員報告就是說採購的案件他會按照那個購案的機敏的屬性來審慎檢討適當的一個招標的方式那如果是屬於"},{"start":383.956,"end":403.319,"text":"公開招標的話公開招標的內容就限於依法可以揭露的這些基本的採購資訊那如果涉及到這個機密的話不管是作案能力、裝備性能或敏感的需求等等就不對外公開然後依規定來辦理這個機密的分級跟管控"},{"start":404.076,"end":418.776,"text":"那另外如果說這個整個的購案的公項或籌貨的標的是屬於機密及以上的密等的話那按照政府採購法規定本來就是可以不適用這個公開照標的"},{"start":419.281,"end":443.84,"text":"那主要當然我們會不適用公開招標案也包括就是說這些面臨戰爭或戰備動員時的武器彈藥機密或極機密的採購以及危及重大戰備的這些緊急採購所以我們大概會做這樣子的一個在採公開招標跟非公開招標的一個區隔這樣先跟委員說明"},{"start":444.54,"end":469.876,"text":"所以這部分的話基本上來講主要是公開抓標的部分其實大家其實是不用那麼這麼大的擔心那當然還有針對系統維護啦還有是檔案建檔等等那當然這些維修人員必須進入到軍區然後接觸設備的勞務案件那當然我們有看到大家有在想說那這些得標廠商跟這些人員會不會又被中共鎖定作為滲透的目標像這個的話我們如何進行接觸的這個控管請問國防"},{"start":470.396,"end":498.493,"text":"就得標之後這個廠商人員進入的話那我們會對這個廠商的背景跟實際施工進入的這些人員會做一個安全查核然後另外我們當然還要看這個機密的屬性的等級跟這個軍品的性質會有一個不同程度的一個查核的頻次跟深度這樣子"},{"start":500.402,"end":515.828,"text":"所以說因為這些外來這些這些人員維修人員畢竟就是不是我們我們軍區裡面的這個人員我們是還是說還是要請外面的進來所以像這樣這個的話對於這個可以說是中共中共的這個滲透是"},{"start":517.409,"end":534.628,"text":"無所不入所以我們會面對這些進到營區去的這些維修人員所以大家都會很擔心就是說他們會被鎖定所以像這之前的話那國防部其實也都有一些很嚴厲的控管是這樣子的意思嗎"},{"start":535.729,"end":560.911,"text":"背景等等的他要先辦一個安全查核查核後才可以進入營去參與這些勞務的施作那這個當然是我們盡量來來努力來做這樣子但是我想我們會持續強化但中國的這些滲透確實是越來越嚴重那我們所努力的能夠"},{"start":561.972,"end":572.164,"text":"做的當然就是剛剛講的對這些廠商做安全查核那對這些比較機敏的這些屬性的這些比較機敏的這個"},{"start":574.062,"end":591.968,"text":"營區或者比較機敏的軍品的這些項目或比較機敏的勞務施作的這些項目我們可能還要進一步來深化我們的查核的廣度跟深度我想這個都應該來持續加以精進"},{"start":593.951,"end":618.881,"text":"對中共的這個無孔不入的滲透當然是方方面面都要非常的這個謹慎那當然我還是要提到這個國防特別條例該公開的部分我們也都公開了那該召開的這個機密會議呢我們也都召開了那部長想請問您認為這一次已經讓大家都充分的了解到國防特別條例跟國防特別預算這方面的這個急迫需求性嗎"},{"start":620.929,"end":634.347,"text":"我想我們大概已經在上一次的機密專報裡面已經有一個全盤說明這個一兆2500億在這個八年期間我們所要"},{"start":635.949,"end":664.247,"text":"的一個籌貨的這些特別著重於不對整戰力跟防衛韌性的一些項目那我們認為如果有這樣子的一個特別條例的一個籌貨我們就能夠專注於這個讓這個具有整個經費的完整性跟預算規模的穩定性的情況之下我們就能夠構成一個高度強韌的"},{"start":665.128,"end":678.995,"text":"然後全面嚇阻的這個還原能力那我想昨天應該是禮拜最近嘛 禮拜就國防戰略的部分是剛剛公布嘛 對不對"},{"start":680.253,"end":699.66,"text":"美國剛剛公布美國剛剛公布我想他是延續國家安全戰略而來的那這個裡面有特別強調一點就是說要在整個第一島鏈全面建構這個集體嚇阻的能力那要求各有盟國家來分擔這樣子的一個責任那我想"},{"start":700.18,"end":725.22,"text":"在國家安全戰略裡面已經也將台灣列為第一島鏈的這個具有關鍵的地位所以對於我們要強化自我防禦能力我們站在第一島鏈的樞紐地位然後站在前沿面對強敵我想我們不可能有絲毫時間上面的一個浪費所以我們今天這個報告也充分也在"},{"start":726.401,"end":753.379,"text":"希望詳細的表達公務預算的配置然後基金的有限性然後再強調特別預算的一個迫切性與必要性那在這邊當然很誠摯的希望朝野都能夠支持那這樣子的一個特別預算編列其實是我們也事先有跟美方做一個溝通那我想籌獲這些相關的武器對我們的戰力提升"},{"start":754.48,"end":773.83,"text":"居居關鍵那我們如果如果沒有辦法通過的話我覺得影響是非常大非常大這個友盟對我們的這個我們到底有沒有意願要來防衛我們自己我們要不要來"},{"start":776.289,"end":798.084,"text":"體力來構建一個嚇阻的戰力來持續來維持印太地區那特別是台海地區的一個和平穩定這個真的是非常攸關的一個特別預算條例那如果能夠護衛那有任何的疑問我想"},{"start":799.645,"end":824.562,"text":"我也在說過能夠公開的我們就會盡量予以公開不能公開我們就來開機密專報跟每個委員做一個詳盡的說明但是我們真的真的非常期待這個預算能夠這個條例能夠覆為那當然年度預算的這個部分這個也涉及到我們相關的這些"},{"start":826.044,"end":834.486,"text":"不管是人員維持 作業維持 軍事投資這個都有關我們的相關戰力維持剛剛委員也提到了 因為他如果不服務"},{"start":835.645,"end":857.543,"text":"不審查的話不只是影響到我們的新增計劃案就是就算是我們的金額就算是作業維持會的金額只要這個項目的金額高過於去年的金額這個金額就不能夠去動用所以譬如說海馬市那這個海馬市去年編譬如說編100塊那我們今年編到"},{"start":859.019,"end":881.451,"text":"再多的 那多的部分就不能夠那海馬斯是屬於他要儘速快速交付的一個項目之一那這個影響會非常非常的大所以我們當然還是誠摯的期待朝野都能夠同意將這個我們的 支持我們的國防預算那將年度總預算案覆為也將特別條例來覆為"},{"start":883.499,"end":900.102,"text":"OK 好 我就想國防部已經盡了最大的努力該公開的已經公開了然後呢 機密的上個禮拜也都召開了我都希望我希望說這是大家該了解的還是說進一步想要了解那就是副委來做審查"},{"start":900.723,"end":916.019,"text":"那我知道之前 像前陣子AIT的處長 古利安處長說Freedom is not free我想這個是非常重要的一句話真的是不管是國防特別條例 國防特別預算其實都有它的急迫性跟重要性好 以上謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167235","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167235","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd618810e8eee7305499c1142e6dd44a39c46b2553e5fca86ad1f1abad4d19330d4f164e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:26:47 - 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對不對不是還沒公佈 事項還沒簽我們在2月13號過年前最後一個上班日我們會發佈最新的經濟預測就GDP的預測還有物價那時候就會把關稅的這些充分考慮進去"},{"start":215.071,"end":225.118,"text":"包括對關稅對物價的影響在2月13號都會公佈副市長我要請問就是說我也觀察到就是說包括這次談判當中有非關稅貿易障礙的討論未來包括我們也會對美國採購石油跟天然氣對不對我們原來有針對其他國家採購未來跟美國採購的價格是什麼我們現在還不知道"},{"start":243.149,"end":271.65,"text":"那但是這些天然氣石油等等都跟民生議題息息相關跟物價息息相關你同意嘛對不對好那如果同意的話那我就要跟副局長討論就是說過去我們看到雖然CPI過去這半年多一年我們都覺得台灣CPI控制的還不錯都在2%左右但是我每一次質詢我有提到其實外食族跟豬屋族"},{"start":273.32,"end":294.859,"text":"雖然CPI是空在2%但是漲幅最高的還是租屋跟外食族外食族如果一漲台灣所有的一般的白領階級藍領階級大家感受恐怕都更深我再公布一個數據我們過去包括10月11月我們的統裝瓦斯也都上漲了包括11月漲了0.45塊12月也漲了1.7塊1月份我們"},{"start":298.602,"end":318.907,"text":"漲了一塊錢過去三個月以來我們的瓦斯每公斤就漲了3.15塊錢以每桶20公斤來計算一桶就多了60塊錢這也就是為什麼我現在有時候常去夜市的時候或最近我在市場敗票的時候他們都跟我講說不得不漲因為瓦斯都漲成本都漲所以中油雖然有說現在的調漲是因為過去"},{"start":330.43,"end":355.305,"text":"但是現在在反映成本但是我就要請問如果接下來我們要跟美國採購天然氣而且是一個我們現在不知道未知的價格我們到底未來在民生包括這些瓦斯類似瓦斯這些調漲上我們到底還有多少還沒有漲這是我擔心的我要強調雖然CPI我們現在控制到2%但是我們的外食族 租屋族"},{"start":356.446,"end":384.132,"text":"所感受到的租屋的費用跟外食其實是不斷的在調整所以加上我們接下來有五千億美元要跟美國做投資那國際資金的流動會不會造成台幣的貶值進而推升我們接下來台灣的通膨等等我覺得這都是接下來我們在中長期要因應短期可能我們就要因應中長期你們更要提出決策出來"},{"start":385.692,"end":387.315,"text":"我覺得就是說在這次談判的結果從那天賴總統的記者會當中我看到的只是報喜不報憂因為對各個產業的衝擊還有你們短中長期你們後續如何去因應"},{"start":401.474,"end":418.486,"text":"短期內你可能可以做補貼但是你不可能是永遠做補貼那你的政策到底是什麼包括我們的農業等等那我就要再請問農業部包括杜次長在這一次台美的貿易協定當中我們會不會去處理美豬美牛跟基改的問題"},{"start":421.733,"end":431.422,"text":"因為我從媒體上已經提到看到美方提出好幾次就是對於美豬美牛跟基改的食物希望可以進到台灣來到底會還是不會"},{"start":433.632,"end":453.488,"text":"美國豬肉 美國雞肉包括基改食品包括標示等等現行已經在走的都在走那農業部的立場是絕對保護台灣農業安全那也絕對不會犧牲台灣的農業妳嘴巴這是標準妳這是官方的標準答案但是到底會不會會不會再進一步處理包括基改的食品問題"},{"start":454.429,"end":458.152,"text":"會還是不會還是不能講 保護國人健康大家都知道啊 但是會還是不會還是不能講 就是不能講就對了"},{"start":484.509,"end":507.764,"text":"不會進來 你現在還是不能講就對了會不會你不敢講 那就是等於是不能講好 那美方這一次還有提出包括在國際媒體其實包括這一次巨大的事件前一陣子也認定說對於我們對於移工的強迫勞動等等包括我們這一次在國際勞工團體我們也高度被點名包括還有一些其他國外的媒體我們也被點名"},{"start":508.644,"end":520.346,"text":"所以我要請問就是說在經濟部在巨大的案子之後勞動部有沒有做好相關的因應準備包括未來我們的產業會不會涉及強迫勞動而遭到貿易的限制等等"},{"start":521.964,"end":526.589,"text":"跟文報告 其實這個強迫勞動的議題它是一個國際的議題我們已經在呼籲國內的這些做出口外銷的這些產業要提前因應所以這個已經勞動部還有經濟部這邊我們也共同已經在你提前因應你的輔導你的配套措施是什麼"},{"start":544.45,"end":560.15,"text":"我講台積電台積電在台灣我們的毛利率可能都比美國高美國的毛利率只有8%嘛那在台灣台積電毛利率好像還有三成左右三成三成多左右這個就是差異性啊這對台灣的這些半導體產生有很高的影響"},{"start":562.012,"end":585.682,"text":"所以你的因應策略是什麼你不是嘴巴政府只告訴你要因應你要因應你車子一直往前在開但是我們國內的產業如果沒有做好配套所以政府沒有輔導你短期的可能是用補助或用其他的措施或者你在談判過程當中你必須要談說必須給我們的勞工產業多一點的時間準備你要幫他爭取啊你不是因應馬上"},{"start":587.403,"end":592.568,"text":"國內的各個產業全部毛利率馬上就降低我們會來爭取我知道勞動部也會發布相關的指引然後來協助我們產業能夠來做因應我們經濟部這邊的話我們也開了很多場的一個說明會我們也會讓我們的廠商能夠了解強迫勞動到底有哪些criteria"},{"start":612.827,"end":640.042,"text":"你這個做法他們能不能做得你我心之斷其心之渡民可能需要一些時間還有相關的配套措施做準備我要再一次我最後我要提醒我今天時間這個議題今天的議題很重要很大我要再次提醒在這一次我們未來MOU我們有2500億要到美國投資水巴講講就是說我們不用出任何錢就像父母買房小孩買房子父母做貸款一樣父母做信用保證一樣"},{"start":641.363,"end":666.201,"text":"比照現在國發會的信用的機制國發會的信用機制我們的國發基金還有民間的金融銀行也是要相對拿錢出來投資對不對也要嘛目前國發會的國發會也有嘛所以不要在網路上給我洗說2500億我們政府都不用出錢金融機構都不用出錢當然要國發基金現在的投資"},{"start":671.533,"end":695.995,"text":"以100億的台幣專款來說有60%我們就要提撥然後民間要投資40%那未來如果2500億的話我們至少要有100億的準備金放進去投資投資有賺有賠不是所有過去美國投資的都是AAA的公司我們當然希望都是當然也會有風險"},{"start":697.276,"end":714.072,"text":"但是接下來這些其實就是我們擔憂的那另外一塊所有的金融業我們如果做的這些投資對於國內重大經濟的投資會不會有其他排擠的效果"},{"start":715.333,"end":743.614,"text":"其他的排解的效果會不會有跟委員報告其實這個是不用擔心的金管會還是經濟部可以回應我們經濟部其實在投資招商這個部分從目前來看其實像包括像美光還有NVIDIA這些國際的大廠都已經在投資台灣政府的投資也好民間銀行的投資也好金融機構的投資也好它能投資的金額都有限不管對國內跟國外我們以前都是對鼓勵國內的投資"},{"start":744.955,"end":764.079,"text":"我們現在撥了大筆的經費金額到國外去投資會不會對國內的發展產業的發展會有投資這個排擠的效果會不會有其實是不會的不會我們現在看到台積電還是在台灣繼續加大投資所以這個是很確定的我講的是國內其他產業要貸款喔"},{"start":772.455,"end":780.597,"text":"會不會戴不到不好戴不會的因為中小企業信保基金是另外的這一次的我們對美的投資的專款它是有別於中小企業信保基金的所以不會排擠到我們台灣政府對中小企業的支持"},{"start":792.659,"end":804.521,"text":"我覺得40%的半導體到美國去投資我們看得非常清楚接下來產業的空洞化還有台灣其他的產業如何去做更多的扶植我們是不是有足夠的"},{"start":805.993,"end":832.084,"text":"晶圓留在台灣做其他台灣產業的投資我覺得這方方面面有太多我覺得我們今天在這邊我們都要去做更多的思考跟討論我也期待在這一塊賴總統不是只有開一場記者會我們各部會有更多的責任必須要交代清楚後續包括MOU後續包括沒有交代清楚其他產業的衝擊是什麼你們的短中長期的配套措施是什麼都要交代 謝謝"},{"start":834.13,"end":840.562,"text":"好 謝謝李燕秀委員市長請回接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167232","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd6188101c1307551561da7c784d0199fe87f28a53e5fca86ad1f1ab58fff7e47292a95a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"09:56:58 - 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的建軍項目即便需要加速你也可以完成分年編列特別預算如果他有急需的話我們也同意他可以分年編列特別預算而不是用一個總括式的特別條例把所有的項目一次打包而且這都是後來才填進去的啊之前你們有讓委員會知道嗎有讓全體國人知道嗎"},{"start":324.437,"end":329.558,"text":"這個也是特別條例最大的風險所在因為一旦條例通過他預算被匡列了一照2500億其實他就是把它用到晚為止我們過去的前瞻預算8800億現在我們發現有一些少子化辦公室或者相關的預算其實有一些您這樣子講應該不適合您作為這麼多的召委講的議事程序的內容吧"},{"start":348.243,"end":368.012,"text":"一照2500億是一個上限金額在條例通過之後我們要提出預算的詳細項目這個還要經過大院的許可啊部長你先聽我講完您這樣講好像部長你先聽我講完他的上限金額就是一照2500億一旦通過除非有被刪減嘛那刪減是審查以後可是我現在要講沒有 特別預算裡面特別預算裡面除了我們在審部長請聽我講完"},{"start":375.555,"end":381.239,"text":"我們現在在過去的幾個特別預算裡面其實現在都是這樣一旦匡列了他的上限金額其實大概都會把它使用到完除非他有審查被刪除那現在我們現在要討論的就是你後續逐年修正檢討或喊停的制度空間就會喪失很多"},{"start":399.171,"end":419.865,"text":"這個不像我們一般的公務預算可以好好的去做審查所以他真正該被討論的不是他內容刪不刪而是這些項目到底需不需要用特別條例這是我們現在要特別強調的這些部分到底需不需要用到特別條例我們從過去到現在其實你們現在提到的很多其實都是在公務預算裡面編的你們現在只有一個理由就是我們急需可是當你在講急需的時候我們來看幾個例子"},{"start":429.351,"end":450.562,"text":"我們從過去到現在我們在這個部分我們大概不過委員講的就是這樣子那至少要復違一下吧現在就是你到底要不要放在裡面因為你項目才剛出來不是要復違而是應該要先釐清這些是不是適合放在那裡我們再來討論這個部分適不適合放在那裡你連復違都不復違那怎麼討論"},{"start":453.277,"end":457.52,"text":"你應該先讓大家看到啊因為大家都看不到的時候要怎麼付委部長今天你如果說你有一個需求你說你兒子跟你說我要五千萬然後我可能要有一個人生的規劃跟需求那你要有項目可是你的項目是現在才拿出來你的項目是現在才拿出來當之前大家在程序委員會的時候大家根本不知道你的內容"},{"start":483.457,"end":497.364,"text":"這是第一點 第二個我們現在要討論的是現在我們在預算我也當過立委 陳議委員會是在做什麼樣子的一個一個一個一個一個議事這個部分大家都很清楚嘛就是部委才能夠進行討論"},{"start":499.064,"end":516.568,"text":"請尊重立法院因為現在他就是還沒有通過程序委員會這個部分現在目前的進度是這樣因為我們看到現在可能預算有錯置的部分比如說他明明有基金預算還有我們有分年規劃的獲得的相關預算可是我們現在要把子彈火藥還有製程設備有一些你就要把它放在我們的特別預算裡面"},{"start":529.348,"end":538.695,"text":"這個部分另外就是在另外一個類別類型就是說我們選了不成熟的路線可是我們也沒有停損的機制這個部分我們舉個例子來說就是我們的奉展專案奉展專案從2012年本來他的規劃期程2023年就要完成可是他在這中間延了兩次現在延到2026年現在又延到2028年奉展專案就是我們F16"},{"start":559.071,"end":565.737,"text":"AB的升級案他高達長達14年以上現在在延長可能長達16年以上他現在目前可能還有的狀況是我們的電站夾艙我們之前說要研發可是後來無疾而終我們也編了錢錢也不知道哪裡去了那時候都是非常重要可是當他沒有的時候我們好像也就沒有了"},{"start":582.213,"end":590.216,"text":"那另外還有就是我們在這個有很多有延宕還有造成戰力空窗的部分因為最近因為F16這個戰機摔落的時候我們才發現我們自動防撞系統其實是還沒有建置完成"},{"start":600.18,"end":603.104,"text":"我們的遠距遙控武器也要到2027或2028才可以完成那另外還有任務電腦現在可能還是有狀況的情況之下這些部分其實我們的預算都是有給足"},{"start":615.598,"end":620.421,"text":"這個部分我們只是後來才發現這些部分都還沒有建置完成所以我們要的是怎麼樣讓我們所有的武器裝備它可以即時到位而且是符合我們的戰力需求這是國防部應該要去要求的而不是只要錢因為我們過去到現在我剛剛講的奉產專案我們講的F16V還有我們的永英號如果大家有印象的話永英號現在也在延宕交貨當中"},{"start":643.234,"end":655.501,"text":"我們的潛艦其實他的戰力形成可能要到203幾年以後如果順利的話所以我們不斷不斷的花錢我們不斷不斷的編預算當我們要這些預算的時候都說我們要展現給我們其他的有盟的國家看然後我們要讓我們的國人有信心可是當我們預算都有給的情況之下我們看到現在的戰力是有空隙的我們的"},{"start":670.809,"end":689.575,"text":"這些武器膠裝是延宕的所以像這些他要怎麼到位這個都是有很大的影響還有我們F16我們現在都跟說跟美方買大家如果有印象的話川普第一任的時候他有答應出售給我們自走炮就是A6"},{"start":691.24,"end":706.753,"text":"可是後來他們一句話說不賣了說產能的問題到最後叫我們我們錢也不能退啊我們還是那些預算可是我們必須買海馬斯那你現在美國現在要同意我們"},{"start":708.277,"end":713.401,"text":"也是自走炮有賣A7萬一他又突然變卦了我們到底有什麼樣談判的能力我們現在要講的是除了像我們剛剛講的預算應該要配置妥善以外然後還有像我們這些談判的風險我們完全沒有能力去跟美方做談判包括他沒有辦法交機我們也沒有能力去做要求"},{"start":732.136,"end":737.759,"text":"然後如果說像他已經答應說要賣給我們也知會國會然後也已經公告我們預算也編了他突然變卦的時候我們也沒有辦法去做什麼任何的調整所以就這幾項來看我們才會說我們希望我們要編列這麼高額的預算當我們一步到位的時候美方也要求日本也要求韓國他們的"},{"start":758.088,"end":772.742,"text":"國防必須要達到GDP的3或3.5以上他們都沒有答應 甚至也沒有做到可是我們現在如果依照我們今年的公共預算9450億再加上通過的1100億的任期預算超過一兆多 這個已經高達3.5日本明年的國防預算已經要達到9兆日元"},{"start":781.448,"end":797.81,"text":"我們不是比9兆我們說的是GDP因為他的量體不一樣日本到現在他的GDP就是2點幾%而已而不是9兆日圓部長我們用的要一樣的比例就是說比如說你的收入是多少跟一般"},{"start":798.952,"end":804.559,"text":"其他人的收入他的支出就會不太一樣這個部分是我們特別要提出來講的所以在這裡我們最後要強調的就是說其實我們支持可是你必須要用對地方然後必須有即時的站立剛像我們說機器狗"},{"start":816.855,"end":828.422,"text":"大家會覺得說機器狗可能也很符合我們的作戰需求可是他不是把他展示或者引進買來他就已經具備戰力因為會讓人家有這樣的錯覺其實他最重要的困難點在於他的通聯如果我們買相關的武器裝備包括你要買無人機包括你要買無人艇這些他"},{"start":840.009,"end":844.631,"text":"他的通聯抗干擾還有辨識誤判在交戰規則裡面都必須要符合他一直機器狗出去他不是就知道敵人在哪裡或者他就能夠作戰所以我們希望在你買這些武器裝備尤其像無人機我們要買那麼多國防部也一直強調他有迭代的問題因為他不斷不斷的在更新像我們買的Artist 600"},{"start":865.6,"end":868.581,"text":"他剛開始我們的有一些武器裝備可能在俄烏戰爭他初期是不錯的可是後來其實他的抗干擾或者其他的反制的這些作為都出來以後其實他已經就會失效或者成為被獵殺的目標"},{"start":882.987,"end":891.593,"text":"美軍的空軍跟海軍都有去測試過他們甚至烏克蘭在2024年也不部署了可是我們現在要花很高的金額現在我們已經有買了啊可是現在又要編高額的預算在特別預算裡面要去買那這些是不是符合我們或者他是不是不夠好我們沒有辦法監督所以這個部分是我們特別在特別預算裡面這麼高的預算要用掉這麼多的錢我們應該要特別去審慎評估的"},{"start":913.067,"end":917.128,"text":"回到基本的這句話這些項目真的那麼重要那麼正當我們希望我們回到正當的建軍規劃裡面接受分年預算逐項審查跟持續的監督這個部分因為不要選擇性的說我們所有的我剛剛提到的我們現在所有的建案我們都是給足了錢那如果有需要我相信我們所有的國人都會予以支持這個部分部長"},{"start":938.903,"end":963.472,"text":"我想委員所講的說我們所有的事情都要進入來討論我剛剛已經講了如果你連互違都不肯互違我們連討論都沒有辦法進行討論那請問您剛剛講的那些在每一個項目我們需要的籌貨的必要性跟破業性上面我們根本沒有辦法進行互違討論的情況下您剛剛講的那麼一大堆的事項"},{"start":964.964,"end":972.937,"text":"那現在就還在程序委員會 理論上來講 理論上來講特別條例根本沒有互違 沒有按在委員會裡面"},{"start":974.304,"end":982.792,"text":"我們要如何進行討論您所有剛剛的主教都要先互為我們才能夠進行討論嘛我們也排了一個機密專報委員也沒有來我們在機密專報上面已經詳細的說明了我剛剛講過了為什麼我們會參加全機密預算是因為它有一些必須公開的你不應該裝神弄鬼把它用全機密包裝如果你在當天的下午就可以有一些部分可以公開為什麼你一開始的"},{"start":1001.708,"end":1007.293,"text":"我們就可以公開的事實上都有跟委員在個別的進行溝通啊難道沒有進行溝通嗎今天是立法院我們所有應該要得到正常的資訊的時候你在事先要復違的時候就應該給所有的委員知道你到底要怎麼花 到底要怎麼用 到底要買什麼而不是在幾次都沒有通過以後你才慢慢慢慢的說你要做什麼現在部長記事誠心上本來就要先復違嘛"},{"start":1032.093,"end":1060.738,"text":"沒有 是應該要讓大家知道你要做什麼比如說那個不是在委員會比如說你要買F16的時候很清楚的知道美方他要求的就是2500億左右所以你在特別預算的條例或者他的預算其實都可以去編這樣的預算那個大家都沒有意見所以就這個部分部長您要不要說一下哪一個你覺得非常需需的"},{"start":1062.052,"end":1067.974,"text":"我想我們在機密的專報裡面都已經有做過充分的說明除了機密以外公開的沒有必要嗎請委員能夠支持啦沒有 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賴委員我請教部長 你剛才你對我已經否認了就是說台美要成立聯合火力協調中心外面感覺就是美軍要來兼軍你說絕對不是兼軍可是你們還內部高掛一個電子鐘倒數2027年的1月1日就是說老共要打台灣就掛在那裡"},{"start":39.805,"end":47.767,"text":"而且美方的智庫宣稱 中共有人歷來打台灣在那個時候可是 人家知道 另外的智庫說不會打台灣2027我們現在看起來的感覺就是 都在政府說的啊現在為了一定澳洲 就說很緊張的2027要打啦所以你看啦 我要成立聯合火力協調中心啦然後另外一方面 賴清德總統會想說我選舉的時候 只有我當選 兩岸最和平 不會戰爭"},{"start":69.211,"end":88.226,"text":"就是都知道你說的對了你要不要對這個事情這個來講一下你這個是不是準備打仗了2027年1月1日倒數你這個聯合協調中心即便美軍不是建軍好了但是是不是你掛在那裡就準備這一天要打仗是不是"},{"start":89.736,"end":110.015,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們要以2027作為我們有一個高戰備的能力這是我們國軍的一個目標那這個跟來研判說中共是不是一定會在2027年對我們採取前面入侵的這些軍事行動我想不必然有等號的關係但是無論如何我們都要"},{"start":111.032,"end":128.193,"text":"以為就是說我們透過不斷的這個實戰化的訓練所以等於戰備準備說我準備你那天來打你不打最好是這個意思我們一定要形成嚇阻我們一定要形成嚇阻嘛2027那就明年1月1日喔 剩不到一年喔"},{"start":128.753,"end":133.797,"text":"時間蠻緊湊的我想2027年是一個點但是不會是2027年之後我們就不需要去籌購新式的武器也不需要去維持這個高戰備能力我們2027年我們有一個這樣子的一個要形成高戰備的能力但這樣的高戰備能力我們從這個點來看呢事實上還有待進一步提升的地方我們會持續來進進"},{"start":157.216,"end":159.638,"text":"你剛才提到高戰備人力高戰備人力有沒有包括類似以色列的那種所謂的鐵穹系統"},{"start":178.764,"end":208.084,"text":"我想我們已經在對外在說明就是說台灣之盾就是鐵球沒有我想每一個的系統不能夠做完全等號的類比但是我們要發展一個我們的台灣之盾來形成一個多層次的一個防禦在防空的部分這個是我們努力的方向防空很重要啦空戰很重要請問那個已經講很久了"},{"start":209.285,"end":231.405,"text":"F16V到底今年可不可以交捐F16V我想這個是不是請空軍來回答今年能不能交捐目前是正在進行非策的階段這要看整個非策的結果如果順利呢順利的話今年當然可以交捐今年什麼時候第一季 第二季 第三季 第四季還是要看它整個測試的進度"},{"start":232.796,"end":258.525,"text":"我看去年的報導是說今年的第三季最有可能我們叫Most likely 最有可能今年第三季如果說進度都正常的話那我們希望在今年第三季能夠交幾架這個都還沒辦法確定不是交66吧66架這個基本上是不太可能不太可能 40架咧這個我沒辦法去做一個預測交一半種可以吧"},{"start":260.339,"end":269.861,"text":"投這麼久了所以說他出來的時間跟他後續的產能這個是有直接相關所以目前所以你一估只加一價"},{"start":271.585,"end":295.105,"text":"我想這樣的委員就是說我們現在在進行各項的一個測試他第一架測試如果完成以後以之後的測試應該就會比較簡單那在線的組裝也有幾十架我上次已經報告有56架所以我們預期今年如果測試順利的話我們會有相應的數量來獲得交付那我們現在沒有辦法跟委員確定到底有多"},{"start":295.285,"end":299.589,"text":"你剛才講我就幫你解讀我聽你講你剛講的意思就是只要那第一架測試成功大概就有56架第三季膠是不是這樣子可以這樣解讀嗎我沒有辦法說最樂觀最樂觀就會有56架的一個膠糊我只能夠說我這桌球給你了你不敢接最樂觀啊也不要你"},{"start":314.284,"end":318.006,"text":"我們希望推估就是說如果完成首次的飛行那麼繼續按計畫來執行飛車的作業之後呢順利的這個進行的話呢會在這個115年會有這個飛機飛返那因為大家在飛機飛返之前他還會有相關的一些在美的訓練的項目這樣子所以還是要拖一陣子啦可能要到明年去啦"},{"start":340.601,"end":352.494,"text":"那個你的 再一次大家討論的1.25兆特別預算現在確定的是美國要均售我們3500億我們在國內買3000億我這種講法對吧"},{"start":359.345,"end":382.162,"text":"那個數字可能有點問題那個3千5百是含了美國啊美國 三個我們公務預算的案子也就是保修那個案子軍購五項裡面大概是2千9百億左右我們算零頭啦 零頭不要3千億 美國3千億是不是跟委員報告 因為我們在上個禮拜已經做了機密專報全部的內容都在那個機密專報裡面沒有 我現在從不機密的角度嘛我們今天公開的大家想知道啊 對不對"},{"start":386.645,"end":398.755,"text":"因為我為什麼提這個東西那我就問你一個很籠統的你一定這個打都不會有心理壓力的1.25兆是不是都是武器的採購是不是不是1.25兆裡面它區分成"},{"start":405.02,"end":422.34,"text":"那個七類然後七類裡面其中第六項的部分是提升整體軍備量能的部分它就有包含採購武器彈藥跟籌建我們的軍備產能以及提升我們的主角能量有沒有包括"},{"start":423.769,"end":448.108,"text":"operating under maintenance的錢 有沒有維修費用 有沒有報告委員 作業維持費的這個部分有沒有 有沒有我們有 在軍購以及商購的案子裡面我們都會納到初期備份料件跟接裝等相關的支出那後續等到案子執行之後我們會納入年度公務預算裡面來編列作業費跟訓練費"},{"start":449.229,"end":475.856,"text":"不要忘了 大家都知道我們最喜歡講Life Cycle叫做壽期 壽命的壽期間Life Cycle Cost那麼事實上 除了武器採購還要後續的維修費用作業維護費用都要加進來那個大概是 我查了一下大概是一到兩倍 這個錢你們沒有算進來包委員 這個應該"},{"start":479.138,"end":505.319,"text":"比一到兩倍這種數字要複雜得多我們舉例來說彈藥類的東西他只有在後續的時候不不不我講那大武器啦比如說F16V啦或者比如說這個海馬仕啦之類的啦大武器的部分您舉到海馬仕的部分海馬仕的部分如果是以我們目前我們的規劃十年期做一次性能提升二十年期做一次延壽的話如果是按照這個規劃基本上是處於1.25到1.33左右"},{"start":507.341,"end":533.648,"text":"好但是如果是像戰機這種項目他就會稍微高一點所以每個項目他都不同那這個錢也變在哪裡對這個我們在這個錢要變到哪裡我問你啊特別預算還是年度預算就是問題是個年度預算年度預算跟委員報告他剛剛站規師已經說明了軍事投資的這個部分都會有新增的就新增武器的裝備會有一個初次備份料增跟接裝訓練那在這個"},{"start":536.449,"end":546.355,"text":"武器裝備部署之後 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在場的委員先進列席的政務機關所長官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生我們有請經濟部何次長然後主計總處陳主計長還有農業部的杜次長以及經貿談判辦公室的徐執行秘書依序來請教這幾位杜次長中委員好"},{"start":29.628,"end":49.303,"text":"次長好我們這次關稅降到15%聽說傳產也共同受惠但是如果預算也不省關稅協議也不過那會誰受害呢我們來看一下有一個說法已經講了一年多了就是說台積電會變成美積電請問次長你怎麼看這樣說法經過這樣的一個協議談判之後台積電會變美積電嗎台積電你說"},{"start":53.205,"end":80.143,"text":"這絕對不會的因為台積電我剛提到台積電在台灣的投資其實還是不斷的在加碼8成多產能8成多而且按照我們的統計到2030年台積電在5奈米以下的產能在台灣會是在8成5我們簡短那這些公司這9家公司是怎樣是在未來在美國的台灣模式的共同供應鏈嗎"},{"start":83.192,"end":104.949,"text":"這些 這些都是在美國投資的吧有些是美國公司嘛 對不對對 是好 那請問一下這個美光美光買了一個利基電美光會變成台光嗎沒有沒有 是所以你說怎麼解釋這一次在我們半導體產業經過台美協議談判之後這些半導體的大哥們他們到底會形成怎麼樣的一個產業關係呢"},{"start":107.433,"end":123.403,"text":"其實這個就可以看得出來其實半導體這個產業它需要是一個全球佈局台美而且跟歐盟日本這些合作的這樣的一個生態系我們必須要把它建立起來來 那我們看一下來 那台美半導體是相輔相成那傳產 傳統產業也可以順路共成嗎這裡面談到的所謂的15%不疊加談到了未來有232還有最優惠待遇我想請教一下往下看"},{"start":136.01,"end":158.565,"text":"哪些傳統產業的競爭力不降反增因為人家說船廠現在很虛弱好的都是海盜半導體電子產業汽車零組件 自行車 塑膠 工具機手工具 水五金 醫療器材還有機械這些未來的競爭力怎麼樣市長你怎麼看是 這些都是受惠的產業受惠 為什麼說要受惠因為它的關稅大幅降低了不是從0變成15 還是怎麼樣"},{"start":161.496,"end":173.881,"text":"我們來看一下是不是跟大聯盟我們台灣的船廠跟大聯盟哪些德國 日本 韓國 歐盟這些都是大聯盟對不對過去我們的工具機是不是跟人家相較起來我們的"},{"start":175.214,"end":199.923,"text":"稅都是比較高 對那相當於歐盟 韓國 德國 日本都是15%那這是我們談到的結果你覺得跟大聯盟我們相較之下我們有沒有劣勢我們絕對沒有劣勢好 所以這次的結果呢我們降到跟他們一樣15%來 我們來看小聯盟好了我們的手工具 水五金 塑膠製品 自行車跟墨西哥 越南 中國競爭"},{"start":201.67,"end":223.031,"text":"我們現在降到15%了對不對這些國家呢 怎麼樣他們這些國家的稅率還是蠻高的所以我們跟大聯盟並駕齊驅跟小聯盟拉開距離是不是這樣子是好 那我們往下看來 接下來我們請主席長主席長主席長已經先離開好 那現在是"},{"start":225.18,"end":243.476,"text":"蔡副主席很抱歉是是是好來預算不審誰倒楣來我們請教一下今年度的預算規模是不是3兆0351億3兆0351億沒錯啦對對對好那其中相較於去年我們多增加了新興計畫還有延續計畫的新增額度是不是增加了2992億對對對你對著麥克風講請說是現在呢我們現在"},{"start":249.312,"end":257.876,"text":"目前在野黨說透過預算法54條要先放行718億是不是等同砍掉了76%幹掉了2000多億這2000多億未來有機會用嗎有沒有辦法使用如果預算不省這2000多億還能用嗎"},{"start":267.53,"end":291.831,"text":"沒辦法用了嘛所以包括我們永續的人才資源發展AI 自動導航等等這些都會延到我們國家數位轉型來往下看好 這些其他的部會社安網2.0我們的社工人員要加薪我們的關懷訓練要拓展我們所有的增額人手要增加還能做嗎為了少子女化長照社會救助伸張這些新計畫能做嗎"},{"start":294.195,"end":316.565,"text":"有沒有錢做 如果預算不審可以過嗎就是新增的就不能做新增的都不能做 是不是這些強化社會安全網第二期有400億然後再來這些本來從400億變成819億擴增了新增的對象 獨居老人 新手父母 近貧人口 受侵害者這些人的服務都沒有了 是這樣嗎"},{"start":318.655,"end":337.679,"text":"我們從400億變成819億新政要做的都不能做了是這樣嗎總的來講2992億就是影響經濟成長率1.1個百分點OK好了我們的腳本好像不太一樣來往下看我來問你好無人機科研中小企業賽事跟場館這些我們主席總書有沒有盤點這些都還能做嗎運動部"},{"start":343.239,"end":363.024,"text":"經濟部因為今天的運動部沒有人來你可以待會回答嗎這還能做嗎只要是新增的或者NC線的計畫比去年多增加的所以你就是很清楚的告訴大家新增的都做不了了啦2990而已除了718億他們放贏了之外其他的都空了來我們請到杜次長農業部我們屏東農業縣我們關心的來"},{"start":365.885,"end":392.264,"text":"如果關稅協議我們不用審查通過誰會受害我請教一下台灣目前對美銷售的出口的是什麼有毛豆 胡天蘭 鱸魚 烏過魚跟鬼頭刀所有出口主要產品都受害都受害那目前我們這些出口的價值過去呢在我們的出口占比美國市場很重要對不對美國是我們第一農產品出口市場所以美國是我們第一農產品市場好 那往下看那如果我們這次關稅協議過了"},{"start":394.605,"end":417.684,"text":"那跟我們的主要競爭國 您覺得呢我們的毛豆跟中國競爭 蝴蝶蘭跟加拿大競爭鱸魚跟中國 土耳其競爭吳郭魚還有越南 印尼跟中國 鬼頭刀跟厄瓜多如果我們這次貿易談判協議通過了你覺得對我們農民 蘇美是利多嗎當然是利多 所以一定要維持現在十五而且不疊加的狀況最好"},{"start":418.806,"end":443.264,"text":"所以我們這次的台美關稅談判不是只有半導體全球佈局成功多營連我們的船產也受惠連我們的農產品也需要對不對完全需要好那接下來我要請我們的徐執行秘書是委員號來這些問題呢你不見得現在都能答得完你試著答答看跟美國的關稅談判哪些國家已經完成了關稅協議完成了簽訂有沒有"},{"start":445.94,"end":470.068,"text":"完成簽訂的是像柬埔寨跟馬來西亞這個是確定的已經完成簽訂了 是的好 那這些國家跟美國的關稅協議在他們國內是照案通過嗎我們目前的了解應該是大部分都照案通過不是 你說那兩個 馬來西亞跟誰馬來西亞跟柬埔寨柬埔寨 那他們是照案通過嗎是他們國內照案通過嗎"},{"start":472.029,"end":497.809,"text":"對不起 請委員再說一次來 我問你哪些國家已經跟美國完成關稅協議的簽訂是你說有兩個國家嗎柬埔寨跟馬來西亞那這些國家他們跟美國的關稅協定的簽訂在他們國內的國會是召喚通過嗎這部分我們再確認一下但我們的了解應該是都召喚通過有沒有重談沒有重談好 如果關稅協議回到各國的國內去審查有更改要不要重談"},{"start":500.782,"end":523.616,"text":"如果有更改就沒有辦法生效 能不能重談要看雙方OK 目前有沒有哪個國家因為跟美國談妥了回到自己的國會 國會有意見要更改有沒有這樣的情形 有沒有還發生了沒目前沒有看到目前沒有看到 再講一次 對著白鴿鵬再講一次目前跟美國的關稅談判已經敲定了 結果回到國會裡面"},{"start":525.558,"end":536.533,"text":"有沒有哪個國家的國會因為他反對要修改而造成協定沒有辦法簽訂沒有辦法生效 有沒有目前還沒有看到你會希望看到是台灣嗎"},{"start":538.803,"end":554.642,"text":"站在台曼辦公室的立場希望不要希望不要好 那我先問你假設你剛剛講到了如果未來我們國會對於台曼團隊談來的這個台美的關稅協議或者協定有任何的修改你剛剛說了"},{"start":556.084,"end":574.474,"text":"就無法生效那無法生效我剛剛講了農業會受損 船廠會受損半導體我們要擴大對全世界的市場的佈局但是如果發生這種情況我們有沒有機會重談你說他看對方那我再問你 假設可以重談你有把握談出更好的條件嗎"},{"start":576.816,"end":592.704,"text":"謝謝委員關心但我們可不可以不要回答假設性的問題不要回答假設性的問題對 行政部門來講是比較困難是比較困難是 抱歉所以你不認為我們需要重談你也不認為重談有機會談得更好是這樣嗎"},{"start":594.602,"end":606.156,"text":"你是不是希望維持現在的協議能夠簽訂能夠生效站在行政部門的立場是的所以你認為目前這個協議簽訂生效是對台灣的最佳狀況也是對美國的最佳狀況"},{"start":608.368,"end":636.927,"text":"是好目前為止已經簽訂生效的兩個國家他的國會並沒有做協議做任何的更改不然的話就不能生效了對不對是那現在還在進行已經敲定了回到國內再談的國家你有沒有聽說哪個國家有國會要去修改去影響他們談定的這個內容有沒有目前沒有目前沒有好那我希望呢談判辦公室要好好的告訴國人"},{"start":638.088,"end":665.098,"text":"我們要談來的結果再重述一次就經濟部來講我們這次的半導體產業是能夠跟先進國我們同時的形成全球佈局擴大台灣的影響力對不對 何市長是不是這樣 是的好 然後就我們的傳產來講我們有效的降低過去比較高關稅我們跟大聯盟並駕齊驅我們跟小聯盟拉開差距對我們傳產是有利的對不對 對杜市長 那如果說這個協議生效"},{"start":667.119,"end":687.094,"text":"那對我們農業出口美國是有幫助的對不對具有優勢具有優勢而且優勢加強了對不對好所以呢就這些立場來講希望談判辦公室跟國人號說明如果這個協議不能夠國會完全的審定通過完全生效對台灣是不利的執行長是不是這樣好謝謝好謝謝鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":697.388,"end":697.69,"text":"謝謝 接下來請賴會員委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167234","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167234","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd61881027f23803ef15e9e2784d0199fe87f28a53e5fca86ad1f1ab2ffc6f3a5be630c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:18:04 - 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有請部長"},{"start":11.985,"end":32.998,"text":"部長好 這個我是認為現在我們研會已經延到這個時候了說真的我覺得這個國防外交委員會現在跟不存在根本就一模一樣程序委員會現在是實質的就是把這一個國防的條例擋在程序委員會而程序委員會把自己當作國防外交委員會"},{"start":34.559,"end":62.594,"text":"剛剛前面的委員一直提到說哪一個項目他認為不適合放在這一個條例如果認為哪一個項目不適合放在這個條例那就放到委員會審查不就好了嘛你在委員會你可以刪除啊你可以說我在條例上面我這個項目不要啊一到七項我認為六七不要啊我認為金額應該調整啊這個都應該要在外交國防委員會來處理但現在這個案子就是進不了國防外交委員會"},{"start":63.815,"end":80.47,"text":"所以我覺得我們都在浪費時間就是如果這個是應該全民討論的我們機密會議也開了我們也知道為什麼他要編列在機密了民意代表本來就是應該代表人民在這邊做審查結果我們現在呢要做審查預算也全部都看完了我們根本就沒有辦法坐在這邊做審查那請問開這個會到底要做什麼"},{"start":83.729,"end":108.567,"text":"所以我真的覺得我真的是快受不了了現在我知道啦我覺得這一點是非常糟糕啦藍白在那邊提說啦要自己提這個軍購的版本我沒有聽說過立法委員自己軍購的啦立法委員自己軍購請問他要怎麼知道軍種的需求要怎麼知道現在跟世界各國談的狀況到底到如何那請問這個特別條例要怎麼寫現在如果這個立法委員自己做軍購要把這個特別條例提出來那我們要怎麼辦"},{"start":109.588,"end":123.095,"text":"所以剛剛我覺得部長回答得很好因為剛剛我看委員就一直在問說到底哪一個最重要我告訴大家如果今天假設我們家今天被一個竊盜集團盯上了所以我們決定要在前門後門跟窗戶都要裝鎖"},{"start":124.754,"end":144.291,"text":"現在他們就是問你說你前門後門裝戶你到底哪一個最重要請你告訴我每一個都很重要我要防竊賊我每一個點我都應該要裝鎖才對我怎麼可能前門裝鎖我後門不裝鎖現在他們就是希望什麼希望回答出來一個反正哪一個最重要他們就自己提一個軍購條例然後就只有那一個項目我們就漏入陷阱"},{"start":145.31,"end":169.364,"text":"所以這邊國防部一定要撐住今天8年1.25兆這個項目對我們的國家安全就是至關重要我們就應該要堅守這樣的一個立場我們不能夠讓他們提出閹割版的現在如果連機密會議都沒有來或者說連這個細項到底跟別的國家到底討論到什麼程度哪一些智慧國會哪一些沒有都搞不清楚的狀況之下那根本就等於是要提出一個淘寶版的嘛"},{"start":169.924,"end":184.809,"text":"就是一個拼多多版的一個軍購條例然後要自己把它拿到委員會討論我覺得這是我們不能夠接受的事情接下來我必須要講就是我們現在看到越來越多的委員來這邊問的時候都是在針對個案我覺得很糟糕"},{"start":187.61,"end":207.191,"text":"這個就昨天而已吧昨天我們可以看到這一個有一個Alex這個運動員爬我們這個101這個賈永傑這個董事長其實真的在這個規劃上面做得很好但我就往前看新聞我就看到什麼我就看到當時要任命他的時候藍白就在那邊講講說什麼啊 這個是什麼 酬庸啦"},{"start":208.012,"end":223.744,"text":"我想說你今天任用一個人才到哪一個位置上面我現在發現一件事情就是反正只要他們認為不是他們的他們全部都嘛叫做酬勇這個就發生在跟國防一樣我看前陣子這個CK楊在這一個國民黨的這個會議裡面參敘裡面講說什麼就開始講說我們這邊就一定是為了哪一個軍火商為了什麼東西去詆毀我們現在的軍購"},{"start":234.512,"end":254.068,"text":"我必須要講就是我們現在很常遇到這種事情比如說今天這個廠商他今天得標了其他的廠商沒有得標全部都說這個叫弊案然後每一個都用影射的立場到諮詢台上面然後透過立法委員然後去影射說你看這個本來是做什麼的為什麼他現在可以做這一個然後每一個都買叫弊案"},{"start":254.768,"end":270.853,"text":"我們從歷史上來看我們可以看到非常多台灣的廠商他原本是做別的比如說千富他本來製鞋的後來來做這一個跟愛國者飛彈相關的就是明明都有這些我們台灣好不容易可以第一個國防自主然後讓我們的經濟發展讓工作機會變多本來這樣的好事都被他們當作喪事在辦"},{"start":275.994,"end":293.096,"text":"如果這個狀況一直這樣下去我們在這邊開會就變成是一個造謠的場所根本就不是在針對我們的國防預算做把關都在影射都在講根本就不存在的事情真正應該要細項我們要討論我們都做不到那這半年到底要做什麼"},{"start":294.437,"end":318.762,"text":"所以我今天我還想問一個問題因為我們今天一直聚焦在8年1.25兆但我現在對於總預算還沒有審查我也覺得非常的擔心因為總預算它也會編到以往我們本來有的這個類似特別條例然後每年要編預算嘛那像我們看我看這個HF的通信機這個通信機有攜帶式的也有要安裝在這個艦艇上的那它也是每年要編預算"},{"start":319.722,"end":339.272,"text":"那我就在想假設前年執行了去年也執行了然後因為總預算現在卡關了那明明是一個延續性的計畫他就會卡在那邊那假設今天有廠商他已經開標了但是呢最後就沒有辦法決標因為就卡住在那邊嘛"},{"start":339.972,"end":349.039,"text":"那這個時候呢如果好不容易我們拖了很長一段時間總預算通過了這個對已經開標的業者來講這可能會有司法徵送的問題"},{"start":350.27,"end":370.14,"text":"那一旦進入到司法徵送我們就要付出更多的預算來處理一個根本不應該處理的事情所以我現在擔心的事情就是不但是對我們國內的廠商還有針對我們國際現在在跟其他的政府在談這些事項的時候只要不只是特別條例的問題連總預算的延宕都可能會造成"},{"start":375.222,"end":403.995,"text":"我們今天跟別人談的案子會延宕這個一延宕效序有可能幾個結果一個結果是別人乾脆不想來不想理你了另外一個就是要進入到法律徵送的程序因為拖到時間那一旦進入到這個程序我們要多付出更多的成本所以原本應該花的錢我們都沒有花然後也沒有去討論然後最後還要去花一個根本我們不應該付出的一個預算所以現在針對這一點就是第二點這一邊就是這種多年期的計畫請問國防部現在的應對方案是什麼"},{"start":405.509,"end":426.71,"text":"您說放在年度預算的多年期的計畫現在就是有一個如果總預算一直是不能夠審查他最主要不是在說只有新增的一個計畫項目他就是說只要是叫114年度增加的部分都不能夠用"},{"start":430.357,"end":435.416,"text":"以海馬士多管火箭系統來講的話我們的金額應該就是會比"},{"start":437.355,"end":457.563,"text":"原來編41億那現在115年編75億那超過41億的部分的34億就變沒有辦法那他還蠻好事他現在要交付那我們沒有辦法有這個如果總預算一直沒有辦法審議那我們這個多出來的34億就會變成沒有辦法執行請說包委員因為這幾個案子我們有幾個案子是"},{"start":466.487,"end":486.934,"text":"在之前疫情的時候有跟各位報過他有受到延宕的影響但是從去年開始到今年這是一個非常重要的轉折點尤其是今年今年我們最後的28輛M1A2T戰車已經做完了已經放在兵工廠裡面等著我們付最後一筆錢"},{"start":488.334,"end":503.874,"text":"海馬市它是提前的提前這個就會有產線的問題如果我們今年延後到下半年度才有辦法付這個款的話那我們海馬市後面的產線它的排成就會受到衝擊其他的部分"},{"start":504.975,"end":523.482,"text":"如果說委員有興趣的話我們可以像你這樣細講這邊就不足以的去列舉這些細節對 因為我覺得這個是重要的因為這個會影響到就是他們一直在講延宕延宕但反而我們現在在做的事情就是在製造延宕這個對我們的國防一定是重大的影響而且如果說我們延宕的時間太長"},{"start":525.003,"end":541.798,"text":"如果今天超過半年甚至超過一年我們這些總預算都沒有辦法審查的話到最後我說真的已經沒有廠商要來跟台灣做生意了根本就連不要講國防自主我們連購買都已經有問題了更何況是國防自主那這一件事情如果今天我們軍購來得及我們國防的產業發展來得及"},{"start":545.341,"end":572.138,"text":"這個製造的國內的就業機會是站在那邊等著我們所以這個延宕已經不只是說對我們的國防的影響它會對我們整個經濟的產業現在很多人要找工作的時候結果他以為有這樣的工作結果卻沒有為什麼就因為什麼東西都擋在程序委員會所以我覺得這件事情我真的已經快受不了了就是說沒有任何的理由剛剛講的所有的理由剛剛不管哪一個委員他們對哪一件事情質疑"},{"start":572.938,"end":596.542,"text":"不就是應該坐在這邊質疑嗎就是坐在這邊討論不就了結了嗎為什麼程序委員會是連討論都不能夠討論程序委員會是單純舉手程序委員會我要來跟國人說明程序委員會今天要審的是什麼比如說我今天提了一個案子我這個案子比如說我今天連署有沒有15個人我如果要修法我的修法理由有沒有寫這個叫做刑事審查"},{"start":597.402,"end":618.683,"text":"這個刑事審查沒問題了程序委員會就要排案了然後院會一讀之後就應該要進入到委員會程序委員會沒有幾個國防外交的委員啊那憑什麼程序委員會要來決定今天這個條例要怎麼寫這個不就是在實質的去阻擋了行政院的提案權以及我們一般立法委員的提案權"},{"start":619.824,"end":648.152,"text":"接下來今天或明天應該就會發生他們就要自己提相關的這個軍購的條例我覺得立法委員自己去軍購我就是前所未聞啦如果今天立法委員自己做軍購自己提了條例然後要讓我們的國防開空窗我覺得我們應該立場非常的嚴正這不是我們要的軍購我們要的軍購是完整的軍購不是拼多多的軍購不是淘寶式的軍購好 那我是遵守時間的人所以我先講到這邊 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為什麼"},{"start":67.723,"end":87.111,"text":"這是一個談判的結果你不是貿易利益差太多嗎要把你提高關稅那為什麼貿易利益差變成double了排行7又變成4那為什麼那個關稅會降低你們回答本席這個問題像委員報告其實這個就是一個談判的結果談判技巧那麼好就純粹談判嗎你先回去好了啦那我請總裁你們告訴我為什麼"},{"start":94.699,"end":97.544,"text":"我個人的看法我最喜歡聽你的看法我個人認為因為美國需要我們的產品"},{"start":104.045,"end":126.2,"text":"講到重點了 美國需要我們什麼需要我們的產品所以經濟安全不是只是經濟安全嘛他背後思考的是一個國家安全不是嗎對 你看總裁點頭了你的報告書徐殖民你的報告書裡頭就寫到經濟安全就國家安全答案你就寫在裡頭啦所以從國家安全的角度來說我們就來看嘛"},{"start":127.06,"end":154.577,"text":"如果是國家安全的話你看為什麼他們要跟日本的造船業合作那為什麼又叫我們半導體的這相關產業去投資美國關鍵就是在國安嘛 是不是好 那我們就從國家安全的角度來思考這個問題啦台灣的整體的整個經濟戰略當中我們過去是從西進現在是到東進過去是朝西的兩岸共同市場現在是朝東的兩岸共同市場總裁這樣是不是有這樣的走向有"},{"start":155.077,"end":167.532,"text":"有嘛 有這樣走向嘛我們創造了一個不同的兩岸的共同市場嘛從西進垮到東進嘛你去看從2011年對中的部分呢貿易的金額高達143對美才7.3"},{"start":171.216,"end":184.29,"text":"現在降到對中的部分只降到剩下3成 少了7成而且對外的部分不到10%對美國增加到20倍很清楚啊 從西往東嘛從西往東"},{"start":185.509,"end":211.922,"text":"但是我個人還是擔心從兩個數字來說我們對中國貿易的比例是一直對中國的部分的比例是一直下降然後金管會也一直在管有關於金融的部分的曝險一直在降低我就想要就教於這個總裁如果就這兩個數字來看的話中國老是在提起說要廢掉那個FA然後一直想要做一個經貿性的制裁"},{"start":212.862,"end":223.933,"text":"他現在到哪個點我們認為他沒有威脅感那個總裁你有沒有評估過我還是沒有很了解那個委員的問題"},{"start":225.575,"end":229.396,"text":"就是說他常常在威脅我們就是說我們因為投資很多或者什麼 曝險很高會不會我們投資太多 曝險太高用經貿來做我們威脅來制裁的這個可能性要降到什麼階段才會讓我們沒有感受到威脅你有沒有瞭解這個數字就說 沒有你沒有 那我請今晚會主委"},{"start":248.94,"end":254.623,"text":"目前的曝險數字來說從金融曝險的狀況我們大概要降到多少水位才能夠擺脫對中國的依賴我簡單的講其實跟委員說明其實我們的數字是這樣從我們歷史上最高佔我們全體銀行的淨值大概71%現在大概來到了14.59%"},{"start":273.511,"end":289.795,"text":"這當然就是說我們對任何一個那個市場的依賴程度越高那當然所受的風險越低我想這兩個數值可以做一個比較大的比較就是現在我們在對大陸的曝險大概是佔他們現在銀行淨值的只有14.59最高是最高是71的時候"},{"start":292.296,"end":314.345,"text":"是不是要再降低沒有 這個還是他們全球佈局的一部分我覺得全球佈局其實像我們最近我們的國營在我們是從國家角度我剛剛一開始就說從國安的角度我們要多少降到多少你認為才適合這我們倒是沒去評估不過我們現在是持續按照他們整個全球的佈局在安排主委你回去評估一下必要的時候跟業者勸說一下我再來跟那個總裁對話一下總裁"},{"start":315.868,"end":338.249,"text":"你之前寫一份報告非常經典如果要降這個從國安角度他需要我們對不對但是從貿易逆差的角度當中我們還是要減低嘛對不對不是嗎你上次提出三個一個是軍購一個是能源一個是農產品農產品老師說數額有限我們的順差不過是22億那軍購的部分又不算那關鍵就是能源"},{"start":340.075,"end":363.339,"text":"從能源的角度本席查到目前能源的佔比澳洲佔四成美國佔一成然後其他的是卡達四成當中澳洲因為在已經實施了國產天然氣安全機制要優先提供澳洲國內使用2027會更嚴格的儲備限制中國也因為關稅的因素轉向跟澳洲擴大採買當然裡頭澳洲還有他們親中親美的一個問題姑且不講"},{"start":368.516,"end":389.595,"text":"拉回來說目前美國的占比10%未來10年要採購2000億以上目前的貿易逆差的部分跟能源安全的角度來看你認為這個比例夠高嗎還是需要再提升你三項當中兩項就已經排除了剩下這一項而已要減少貿易逆差是否還有其他的可能性"},{"start":392.828,"end":404.764,"text":"我覺得我們盡可能當然就是說剛剛委員講到就是說我們對台對美國的順差越來越增加那我們也要降低對他的一個順差"},{"start":407.788,"end":409.569,"text":"我想除了就是說我們這個採購以外當然就是說能源的話我們可以的話我們也能夠盡量的提高一些但是我覺得我們對美國的投資本身就是也會減少我們對美國的順差那你預估來說這種減少的話真的會趨緩嗎"},{"start":432.337,"end":436.1,"text":"你知道目前為止你看美國越來越我聽到講法他需要我們現在不是我們依賴美國某個程度他是希望不要說依賴啦其實我們國家安全很需要美國就彼此互賴的程度這麼高的情況底下我們也不能客問客誰說因為他需要我們所以說貿易力差不降"},{"start":456.105,"end":460.208,"text":"我想是這樣子他大概會降到什麼程度會讓人家覺得有所交代到目前為止美國對我們的逆差雖然就是說對我們的逆差那麼高但是基本上就他整個的一個逆差來講剛剛也講到就是說現在也是第四位"},{"start":475.479,"end":497.495,"text":"但是第一位跟第二位第三位那邊他的那個還蠻大的所以就是說我們站在他所有的逆差裡面我們也不算是比重也不是說雖然有一定但是也不是最高但是問題還是在我們就是就他的安全的一個戰略的安全來講的話他還是覺得我們台灣是reliable"},{"start":500.817,"end":507.841,"text":"其實真正會讓我們讓步的其實他是從國安的角度來做思考而大過一個貿易逆差的考量所以逆差對我們台灣逆差這個不是他的PriorityPriority是在後面Priority的前面是在國安所以相對而言我們把整個兩岸的市場從西轉到東對台灣的國安是不是有幫助"},{"start":527.89,"end":553.975,"text":"也應該是有啦很有幫助嘛對不對但是一來國安的加強的部分二來貿易逆差如果能夠趨衡的話趨近平衡的話那會更好嘛那另外一個部分啊我就要就教也就教一下那個總裁好了總裁可是談台美的貿易談判當中有一個東西是隱形的一個數位逆差沒有被談到就日美在談判的時候就有談到這個"},{"start":555.376,"end":569.774,"text":"在台美談判當中都沒有談到我個人這樣估計起來我發現這個數位的逆差的差異點在哪裡呢其實從2022年日本的貿易逆差就數位的部分就破百億"},{"start":570.695,"end":594.62,"text":"那台湾的部分呢他是把夯不啷啷把这个服务的服务贸易把它加总起来把运费什么算起来所以说只差点2.2亿但是仔细看一下我们在平台受到美国的这一个部分的这个服务的依赖程度非常的高我发现台湾在美国科技在购买这些数位服务的时候这些公司呢都设在哪里设在爱尔兰的子公司是没有错"},{"start":595.63,"end":617.623,"text":"設在愛爾蘭子公司那我們就不算嗎最終的受益者還是美國的母公司啊是沒有錯這個金額就愛爾蘭的這個順差的金額就破千億了對台灣的占比大概有多高你認為這個部分是不是也應該算入當中台美貿易當中的一個逆差的這個部分可以做一個平衡來依據這隱形的貿易逆差"},{"start":620.712,"end":630.465,"text":"我想這個服務方面的那個逆差以前我們對美國的服務的逆差是很大的後來就是慢慢的因為我們的第一個就是說我們的那個"},{"start":637.574,"end":646.336,"text":"就是我們的航運這個部分我們就變成越來越小那是一部分那是疫情時間航運占比比較高那另外一個部分也就是說我們對它的一個專利"},{"start":652.378,"end":655.362,"text":"專利權他對我們的專利權智慧財產權的採購稍微比較少但是平台的使用比例也越來越高不過這個就是說我們的服務我們的服務對他的一個對他的一個逆差我們台灣對他的逆差確實是越來越小"},{"start":669.341,"end":688.687,"text":"對 沒有錯應該是在貿易平衡的部分這個部分是我們採購它比較多或許將來您在報告的部分就是農業的部分軍購的部分已經不算了嘛能源的部分總裁你的高度的情況底下如何在台美之間的貿易差就是趨近平衡的採購事項當中多做一點琢磨那就請總裁費心各位請回 謝謝謝謝郭國文委員"},{"start":699.712,"end":702.851,"text":"好總裁請回接下來請李彥秀委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167239","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167239","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd618810a2e44a419bbfb3352e6dd44a39c46b25f80b2b3af3c69378aec69ac5727ffa9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:52:43 - 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我們的經貿談判辦公室徐子密請徐子密還有我們國花會高副主委對 副主委還有我們財政部部長財政部中部長還有農業部次長農業部杜次長"},{"start":66.482,"end":87.296,"text":"是 大家好首先非常恭喜也謝謝1月15號台美談判關稅達成了協議等於是台灣對等關稅調降為15%這個對台灣的整體經濟而言的確是一個非常正面的一個訊息在這裡也要感謝"},{"start":89.738,"end":103.585,"text":"那個談判團隊的一個辛苦跟努力那我要再一次提醒我們的政府就是說本席來自於台南的西北我們是一個非常鄉下的一個選區這個地方它其實是以農業為主"},{"start":105.146,"end":124.275,"text":"那所有的焦點我們都放在這個半導體跟高科技產業是不是我們絕對不能忽略的到一個現實台灣不是只有高科技的一個產業其實支撐就業的還是地方的一個經濟那還有包括大量的中小企業跟農業"},{"start":125.416,"end":150.529,"text":"所以關稅的調整不再是少數的一個產業的有感那對於前面市場的一個影響跟產業的一個分布我想這個都是非常重要的好 那個我在這裡請教那個就是執行秘書談判的結果已經出來了那談判的所有的一個底線你都知道嗎"},{"start":153.127,"end":177.107,"text":"事項委員報告就是說除了日前1月16號簽署的投資MOU之外那之後還有一份台美對等貿易協定目前在做這個文字的核對還有清單項目的核對當中那簽署完成我們就會一起送國會好 徐秘書顯然就是你對談判的一個過程裡頭我們的底線你是非常了解的"},{"start":177.808,"end":198.438,"text":"那在這裡我想請教你就是說所有的一個投資5000億的一個投資還是2500億的投資2500億的一個信用保障的投資那到底是怎麼樣講才是最清楚的你用最簡單的一個語言來跟大家做一個報告"},{"start":200.603,"end":228.089,"text":"有關於投資MOU的投資承諾部分它是兩個性質不同的投資第一個2500億是企業自主規劃它因為要接近市場接近客戶的需求它自主做的2500億投資第二個2500億是政府建立信用保證機制來支持金融機構來支援這個企業它在壽性上"},{"start":229.049,"end":253.686,"text":"這個有需求那它的上限是2500億美元所以它這個是性質不同的資本好 徐秘書那我再請教你就是說政府的信用保證的2500億就是表示不是政府拿2500億去投資而是當企業要到國外投資的時候我們需要銀行的一個保證是不是這樣子的一個簡單的白話文的講法"},{"start":255.471,"end":268.986,"text":"是的 簡單來說是這樣就是說我是企業當我是企業我拿100億的時候去投資的時候相對的我也可以從銀行端去借到100億的一個投資變成是200億的投資是不是這樣子"},{"start":270.827,"end":282.359,"text":"是 然後這個借的100億裡面它有一部分它希望是能夠用這個信用保證機制這樣子銀行才方便借給企業所以信用保證機制是這樣來的好 謝謝那我請那個國安會那個副主委"},{"start":287.304,"end":304.311,"text":"我想就針對的就是剛才我們在討論的信保機制那未來會在國家融資的保證機構下去運作那誠如你們這樣講的這個保證的一個專款如果不足的話那該怎麼辦"},{"start":306.136,"end":320.063,"text":"基本上我們現在預估2500億的金融機構對企業的壽性我們如果用保證成數保證倍數是15到20倍保證成數是50到60百分比的話大概是62.5到100億之間我們會分五期基本上每一期現在大概300到400億"},{"start":332.85,"end":354.946,"text":"台幣左右那我覺得我們會分期的由國發基金跟公股跟民營銀行共同來出資來做這個保證專款因為對銀行來說因為他可以得到受信的機會所以其實他某個程度上也有參與保證專款的運用因為他會有一些受信的客戶的來源"},{"start":355.646,"end":371.805,"text":"好 副主委我可不可以這樣請教你就是說你們把高科技產業到美國去投資的風險評估了這麼低所以才敢開出這麼高的一個槓桿風險是因為你們非常有把握"},{"start":373.166,"end":396.287,"text":"我可以跟委員報告其實就算2500億的企業自主投資你知道我們其實像台積電的話它其實它自有資金非常的充裕它可能也不需要參與我們這些國家融資保證機制的保證而且它也可以用公司債的方式來做投資然後國際信貸的方式其實它是非常非常多元的"},{"start":397.367,"end":416.332,"text":"本來就相對的不只是台積電這是我們所有看到的資料就是說基本上就是台積電在美國現有的一個投資我們看得到的一個資料1650億甚至在微創微創也超過了10億以上的一個投資那還有就鴻海廣達"},{"start":418.533,"end":437.752,"text":"其實就很多科技產業事實上他們公司本身就主有就是更多的一個資金現有的資金所以你不會就是要讓供股行庫來買單吧就是說他也許不需要用到我們國家的融資保證機制所以供股行庫也沒有什麼表現的機會"},{"start":438.393,"end":466.063,"text":"也就是說我們是支持其他需要國家融資保證的企業他來做協助金融機構來做授信的行為好 謝謝我想在這裡這相對的一個問題再請教財政部部長就是說去年的稅收我們出現了短缺短徵的一個狀況那我們看到了貨物稅跟營業稅營業稅少收了至少"},{"start":467.603,"end":477.323,"text":"至少那個500億以上那這樣子關稅再一次的調降那財政部有沒有評估就是說有沒有機會有回升的空間啊"},{"start":478.859,"end":488.865,"text":"跟委員報告我想對於稅收的評估我們會整體的評估國內的一個政經的情勢來做核實的評估那我想關稅的一個這一次的談判結果降為15%而且不疊加以及232這個條款以後我們獲得最優惠的一個待遇的國家這個對我們的產業來說是很大的鼓勵那相對的如果產業獲利能夠增加的話那稅收自然也會成長"},{"start":507.556,"end":510.579,"text":"來 部長 我想請教你 為什麼稅收會變少咧委員報告 稅收並沒有變少 只是時增數跟預算數之間的一個差異那我要跟委員報告 就是我們以中央來說的話我們114年的預算數比113年的預算數增加了4705億 成長20.3%"},{"start":530.293,"end":545.123,"text":"而且我們這個預算數還比113年的時增數增加到947億所以我們今年的時增114年的時增數雖然跟預算數之間有差異但是事實上是比113年的時增數還是高的"},{"start":548.985,"end":553.328,"text":"是高的所以說你評估115年如果這個關稅我們把它調到15%談到15%其實對未來我們的貨物稅跟那個營業稅其實會再有回升的空間因為今年我們該在這個關稅談判的過程當中有一些我們該搶的訂單我們不敢搶該買的該下的訂單沒有過來是不是這樣子呢你有沒有把握就是115年我們其實是有可能是回升的"},{"start":580.046,"end":601.876,"text":"115年的税收跟委員報告有一個很大一塊就是中央統籌分配稅款擴大很多也就是財化法的修正以後中央對地方要增加支出4000多億達到8000多億所以對中央稅收來說是會比114年來的少因為財化法的關係讓中央整個稅收是下降的"},{"start":603.087,"end":629.989,"text":"是 才化法的影響會讓整體的稅收是降低的好 謝謝部長那接著我們請農業部杜文貞次長我想次長簡單的一句話就是說黃豆 小麥 薏米都承諾就是說在這一次的談判裡頭會增加 都必須要增加 增購那是不是守得住稻米呢"},{"start":631.81,"end":658.004,"text":"應該這樣說黃小玉其實不是我們承諾會增加而是在去年其實依照著民間工協會他們自己的例行的規劃因為國內蓄勤水產業的增加所以他們對於黃小玉的需求有增加所以去年農訪團其實不是政府出錢也不是政府來主導而是民間的工協會他們就產業需求去徵購黃小玉市長我想我最關心的就是說稻米的這一個底線守得住嗎"},{"start":659.205,"end":685.114,"text":"守得住嗎我想委員長期支持你看喔 你這個黃曉益已經是多買了喔那美牛 美豬 還有玫瑰車 美國米是不是就是說你已經是大量開放了喔那我們的稻米守得住嗎這個是很多農民關心的很多地方政府關心的委員長期支持農業也知道農業部該要守住的我們一定會守住沒有 你這個太模糊了"},{"start":685.754,"end":714.857,"text":"我覺得你就是應該守住謝謝委員所以你會守住該守住的我們都會守住那當然是應該啊是當然是應該啊你才是5%的一個這個那個稻米的一個關稅而已啊所以就是說你開放開放了那個美國米到這裡的時候其實基本上這個影響不大你們還是要像以往的一個慣例把它守住啦你的那個公公糧的收購價格的話你就是維持不變嘛是不是"},{"start":715.497,"end":743.313,"text":"我想该要维持我们的那个重要产业的那就是该维持啊那就是该维持你的供粮价格就是要维持不变是不是这个样子呢该要守住的我们都会守住该守住的都要守住所以就是说供股的价格也不会改变然后美租的莱克那个就是莱克多巴胺的这一个数据你也会一样守住是不是"},{"start":744.293,"end":760.033,"text":"該要守護國人健康這個SPS的規定也不會變動植物防疫檢疫的標準也不會變不會變好 那我也希望就是說基本上你守住了那我們的蝴蝶蘭這個15%的一個關稅其實對我們來講"},{"start":763.197,"end":790.108,"text":"沒有之前想像的這麼難過沒有想像中這麼嚴重還是有點壓力啊所以怎麼讓產業更有競爭力這是要持續做對那起碼不是像我們當初想的是32%那這起碼就是對很多的一個農業產業來講的話是一個非常好的一個信息謝謝委員支持那再一次謝謝大家我們也希望就是保障這個食安的安全農民的這一個收益謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":792.964,"end":799.259,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請林思明 林昭偉質詢"}]}},{"id":"167236","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167236","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd6188109a6ba5d7d6c34375784d0199fe87f28a53e5fca86ad1f1ab332e030545e112f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:29:20 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Man 變馬屁派不管什麼派現在變馬屁派上面講什麼都要照做所以謹慎理性分析的基礎不在了而只剩下習近平的意志第二個風險是什麼美方判斷本來想要跟共軍建立相關的所謂的軍事談話的機制現在誰敢啊"},{"start":280.518,"end":296.616,"text":"你跟美國日本軍事對話建立什麼熱線電話有可能就拿來當成為所謂的成為外國間諜的藉口兩天就不見全家都不見還不自己不見所以這一個緩衝機制目前要建立極其困難"},{"start":297.817,"end":317.884,"text":"那他們另外一部分呢因為指揮鏈坦白講參謀總長啦或者是軍政體系這幾十個上將指揮鏈確實有暫時斷鏈然後下面的人要面對說你到底是張又俠派的還是誰哪一派的擔心被清洗所以解放軍大概會有一段時間"},{"start":319.324,"end":340.544,"text":"不敢妄動我講的不是對台灣喔是對他們自己內部不敢做動作怕引起猜忌甚至於可能我現在對這個長官效忠明天他被抓了下台了我可能連租租連一起倒楣這是另外一個氛圍所以不敢建立緩衝機制內部決策單一化習近平一個人說了算大概是現在狀況所以我看到一個形容詞"},{"start":341.485,"end":365.573,"text":"中國解放軍現在是一個大腦神經受損但是肌肉仍然強大的巨人而這個巨人可能因為錯誤的判斷隨時揮舞棒子那周邊國家不是只有我們周邊國家可能都要小心也就是過去也許擦槍走火的機會比較低現在因為是一個肌肉強大的巨人但指揮鏈呢"},{"start":366.753,"end":392.447,"text":"剩下效忠 剩下馬屁派所以有可能擦槍走火的機會會升高所以我請教部長 面對這個局勢部裡面對於新狀況的應處有沒有什麼樣的研析或者新的一個做法我想第一點還是要重申中共是不放棄武力犯台那習近平對這個的意志"},{"start":394.025,"end":422.078,"text":"也始終似乎沒有顯示他有動搖所以對於中共可能武力犯台這件事情國軍不敢絲毫鬆懈這是第一點第二點對中共的高層的這些這種大規模的一個清洗的作為所影響的他們在這個指揮鏈的體系上面之後如何持續就是說如何來這樣運作因為過去就是委員所講的"},{"start":423.098,"end":449.638,"text":"其實都是以軍委負責嘛軍委 軍委會會負責 他們是以黨領軍 對那這一次裡面他有特別提到說 踐踏這個軍委的這個責任制 軍委主席的責任制這句話 我們也要持續的密註來觀察這句話背後所有陰暗 這句話看起來是軍委會副主席侵犯了主席的權利那簡單講就是指控張又俠對習近平叛變嘛"},{"start":450.489,"end":464.254,"text":"那我們要持續的關注以中央軍委來負責整個整個中國這個有關這個軍事所有相關的這個決策跟指揮的這個部分的影響"},{"start":465.782,"end":493.155,"text":"第二個要持續來關注第三個當然就是說對我們的威脅我們的要關注的是他的預警徵口這樣的預警徵口不只是只有軍事面所有非軍事面我們都要持續那這個不只是我們根據我們自己的這個相關的系統那也要跟友盟情誌來加以進行交換我們會持續的密註我這邊有四個建議啦我四個建議給部裡面做參考第一個"},{"start":494.878,"end":509.76,"text":"當然這是一個危險但也是一個機會也就是他這一個指揮鏈的清洗過程會讓他的目前整個指揮體系會有一個兩到三年的盤整期這個是一個非常珍貴的資源就是我們最需要的時間"},{"start":511.623,"end":524.9,"text":"投資和平 投資國防的珍貴時間所以這個時間很稀有 要珍惜第二個 情報跟心理層面我不知道我們部裡面現在反情報作戰 反認知作戰"},{"start":526.161,"end":546.881,"text":"中共內部我們對那邊相關的心理作戰這個要提升情報的收集跟有盟的情報的交換第三個是我們該做的行政跟立法我覺得應該合作要在這個時候穩定的不管是國防預算或者是國安相關的法律應該在這個機會穩健的把它執行出來有什麼意見溝通"},{"start":549.042,"end":569.337,"text":"認為該修該三該怎麼處理該怎麼處理但是絕對不是停滯不前因為時間很稀有最後一個是第一島鏈的協同尤其川普新公佈的美國戰略其實是希望尤其在印太地區第一島鏈的國家要承擔自己該做partner的parts你的自己的部分所以跟"},{"start":570.635,"end":590.512,"text":"日本、澳洲甚至於南方的菲律賓怎麼樣協同從情報交換從區域的單一戰區甚至於更進一步的單一執管這個部分我覺得應該是一個重點而對於異常現象特別是以往還有這些煞車皮現在煞車皮不在了對於這種可能擦槍走火的樣態的應處"},{"start":592.273,"end":612.92,"text":"可能我建議部裡面跟參謀本部要去思考我先因應方式可能要跟著這個中國的政經局勢變化來做判斷這是我給部裡面跟參謀本部的建議那我最後請教兩個問題我們現在國防預算坦白講已經五個多月了年度預算國防預算也沒辦法審查"},{"start":614.414,"end":638.501,"text":"部長這個組黨連副委都沒有辦法對於我們台灣安全的傷害你們簡單說一下或者舉幾個明確的例子比方說我所謂的傷害是戰力提升延遲戰力維持不足甚至於戰力維持不足可能有些新增預算不足的時候他沒辦法支應我們新型態的需求油料啦彈藥啦然後還有不可逆的傷害這個最重要會不會這個時間錯過了"},{"start":640.802,"end":647.597,"text":"我們原來要籌措的 原來要做的錯過以後就很難第一個就年度預算的部分部長這邊有沒有什麼說明"},{"start":648.997,"end":674.85,"text":"我想我們之前已經有說過了最主要就是說他除了新增計畫之外他還有一個就是說今年的金額要是比去年多的這個部分也都不行來致用那所以我想我們海馬士標槍次增還有戰術數據鏈路及連戰指管系統維護還有這些保護戰鬥人員的這些各裝等等還有包括F-16的後續訓練"},{"start":676.351,"end":699.706,"text":"然後還有這些官兵的這些基層部隊的運作跟提升官兵的照顧只要比去年多的這個金額的項目都不能夠來執行所以對於這個我們提升一個我們的嚇阻戰力還有我們的不對稱戰力還有保護戰鬥人員跟照顧官兵都會有相當大的影響那油料跟彈藥呢 有沒有影響油料跟彈藥的"},{"start":703.095,"end":730.431,"text":"油料影響是多少 這個足跡局啊對 因為有 這是新增預算的部分嘛是 油料115年比114年度增加4億元的部分我們也會被管制所以那個地方沒辦法供資啊 是的沒辦法供資 所以變成我們的我們的官兵弟兄姊妹他的油料 他相關的需求該練那些受影響那年度預算的話 我們現在一併問啦包含我們特別預算 特別條例當然後面還有編列預算詳細的細節啦 各項目啦"},{"start":733.533,"end":755.612,"text":"有沒有那個錯過了可能未來就很難而對國家的安全戰力影響非常大的當然屬於機密系項目的你不用明說啦但是有沒有不可逆的傷害剛剛剛剛有提到那個這請范國威先生來講那委員軍購案那個部分我剛剛已經做過說明了就是因為我們幾個已經撕毀國會了發達書即將到達他是有期限的"},{"start":756.38,"end":780.485,"text":"那第二個部分衝擊最大的就是川普之前公布 最近公布在那八項裡面五項軍購案他的發下書應該在近期之內就會拿到他的效期是45天那過期會怎麼樣過期就要看跟美方談判之後他們願不願意再延長如果美方基於他的後續生產或是其他國家的訂單不願意延長那個項目可能就得重新再來"},{"start":781.602,"end":797.348,"text":"這是第一個第二個我們其中二十餘萬架的小型無人機的部分是希望能夠帶動國內的廠商進行初步的投資所以軍備局前面已經做了兩年期四萬五千多架的一個招商說明"},{"start":798.288,"end":820.953,"text":"那如果說我們現在在這個時候把這個案子往後delay的話恐怕廠商他就會觀望因為畢竟他得做大量的投資才有辦法建一個幾萬架無人機的產線那如果說他不投資的話後續就算我們預算過了那一樣會耽誤到那個時間這個是影響到我們的戰備眾生嘛我們的軍需戰備需求"},{"start":822.199,"end":841.267,"text":"另外一個項目軍需彈背的需求就是我們希望籌購的急缺彈藥的項目以及軍備產線的擴張的這個部分一個是我們現在沒有產線要買一個是建立我們以後自給自足的產線第一個是做不夠的第二個是做不出來的所以這個也會因為這些預算延宕可能錯過了可能就很難了"},{"start":844.994,"end":872.787,"text":"好 所以我們今天看中國對台威脅的狀況現在新的狀況那我們希望國軍大家辛苦了那相關的預算 條例我還是那句話國防安全其實沒有黨派的分別我們都住在這裡2300萬人都面對一樣的生活 一樣的情況是不是能復偽 儘快復偽有什麼意見占多數的總是可以表決可以刪除 可以檢列但是一直擋在程序委員會外面"},{"start":874.609,"end":876.899,"text":"其實最後受害的是我們整體國人跟國家好 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詹副主任委員"},{"start":1832.945,"end":1840.992,"text":"產業發展處陳瓊華陳副處長國家科學及技術委員會張振豪張執行秘書本日會議邀請國防部報告我國武器採購策略及國防預算"},{"start":1853.291,"end":1862.193,"text":"包含公務基金及特別預算編列結構之適切性並被質詢現在請國防部顧部長上台報告主席各位委員先進今天應邀到大院委員會進行專案報告"},{"start":1883.499,"end":1910.082,"text":"承蒙各位委員對軍事武器採購及國防預算編列之關切與指導再次表達誠摯謝意近年國防預算穩定成長面對中共敵情威脅持續擴增我國建軍重點著重於建構不對稱戰力強化防衛韌性提升後備戰力以及有效的"},{"start":1911.307,"end":1937.572,"text":"揮射地帶硬組並以不對稱防衛原則檢視各項各項建軍項目與戰備準備並以強化防衛作戰韌性接續由戰略規劃師師長黃文綺中將就我國武器採購策略及國防預算含公務基金及特別預算編列結構之適切性向各位委員實施報告謝謝"},{"start":1948.72,"end":1963.107,"text":"三位各位委員大家好戰略規劃室司長接下來就我國武器採購策略及國防預算含公務基金及特別預算編列結構之適切性專案報告進行報告一前言"},{"start":1964.417,"end":1978.448,"text":"捍衛國家安全與人民福祉為國軍使命面對印太區域安全情勢劇烈變動以及中共對我軍事威脅日趨嚴峻強化國防有其必要性與急迫性"},{"start":1980.094,"end":2004.661,"text":"國防預算的穩定成長以及大院的支持是面對安全威脅時最重要的支援與後盾在中共的壓力下我國在軍事武器裝備獲得充滿變數與不確定性國防部會盡最大的努力突破困境積極爭取並在兼顧政府施政與財政前提下依作戰需求及建軍規劃辦理預算籌編"},{"start":2008.703,"end":2026.994,"text":"差異化全售及國防資源管理裝備隨服役年限增加性能衰退、維修成本上升及零附件取得困難等問題逐漸浮現如果適時進行太久換薪或性能提升將影響整體戰力及妥善率最後導致預算暴增"},{"start":2028.035,"end":2042.756,"text":"本部在裝備籌貨過程中是綜合考量採購成本、服役年限、延壽可行性及性能提升效益等整體評估確保有限的國防資源能滿足建軍備戰需求"},{"start":2044.262,"end":2067.182,"text":"隨新興科技快速發展部分裝備之全受其管理已由傳統硬體導向逐步轉為軟硬體並重國防部在規劃新興科技裝備籌貨依敵情威脅、作戰需求及科技更新進度將軟體更新、系統升級及必要之裝備疊帶汰換作為方案規劃以維持裝備效能符合現代化作戰場景"},{"start":2073.428,"end":2090.859,"text":"為效益性管理國防預算國防部依不同裝備特性採取差異化全售期國防資源管理方式以空軍戰機為例其全售期涵蓋服役全期、系統性能提升、維修保養及延售工程等長期成本負擔"},{"start":2092.148,"end":2116.399,"text":"而温暖机等新型装备除将硬体需求纳入考量亦需将软体更新、感测与通联系统升级并依科技发展及时提升性能等因素纳入整体评估以确保战力效能与资源配置之平衡国防预算编列以整体考量装备筹购至汰除之全售期预算需求"},{"start":2117.603,"end":2145.649,"text":"軍事投資費用是用於新增武器裝備籌貨含初試備份料件及接裝訓練等項目作業維持費主要用於武器裝備部署後維保及訓練等項目所需因此國防預算分配將使軍事投資費與作業維持費能無縫銜接避免新式裝備於投資預算結束後因為妥適納入常態年度預算而影響運作"},{"start":2146.809,"end":2159.714,"text":"透過此一結構性安排有助於維持預算體系之穩定並確保戰力能夠持續發揮三 國防自主與打造非紅供應鏈依國防法第22條及國防產業發展條例規定"},{"start":2164.21,"end":2186.12,"text":"國防部應推動國防科技軍事裝備及相關產業發展透過建立國防產業分級與輔導機制推動關鍵系統與零組件自製研發及技術轉移逐步厚植國內產業能量為因應新興作戰型態無人載具已逐步納入國軍戰力規劃"},{"start":2188.832,"end":2204.108,"text":"國防部參與推動無人機國家隊結合國內相關產業依任務需求發展多元應用構型並於建案規劃階段及納入後勤資源系統整合與升級空間之考量"},{"start":2205.165,"end":2233.287,"text":"本次強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別預算將規劃由國內自製各類型無人機20餘萬架及無人艇1000餘艘以逐步推動國防自主政策應應供應鏈安全風險國防部已於113年另頒國軍採購禁用大陸地區香港澳門產品認定及履約驗收作業指導要求全軍遵循"},{"start":2234.148,"end":2253.036,"text":"並於招標文件明定禁止入資廠商參與或已入資產品供應以防渡紅色供應鏈滲入國軍主要武器裝備確保關鍵系統與零組件來源具備穩定性與可控性以提升整體戰力運用之可靠度是"},{"start":2254.349,"end":2278.58,"text":"國防預算編列適切性及特別預算必要性現行國防預算區分為公務預算、特種基金及特別預算各自承擔不同功能公務預算主要支應常態性建軍與戰力維持需求115年國防部公務預算已達歷年最高然軍事投資預算以滿足持續案為優先"},{"start":2280.001,"end":2290.229,"text":"若欲快速提升戰力無法全數滿足新增案需求加計後續產製交裝付款之高峰期貨裝期程恐需延長時間實為緩不濟急"},{"start":2293.24,"end":2310.312,"text":"特種基金中僅國軍生產及服務作業基金之生產事業項目能應用於軍工產線增加及提升產製能量且軍備局生產製造中心多數產線建置契金已逾30餘年未曾更新"},{"start":2312.526,"end":2329.364,"text":"為應應戰時高消耗的彈藥需求國軍不斷思考擴增軍備產線以提升整體作戰韌性然而國軍生產及服務作業基金之生產事業年度剩餘有限近三年平均每年僅約四億餘元可供應用"},{"start":2330.485,"end":2353.718,"text":"僅能維持現有產線正常運作無法進一步投資擴充產能因此編列特別預算推動各兵工廠彈藥各裝戰甲車輛等生產新建及擴建與產能升級提升關鍵彈藥制自主生產與儲備能量特別預算於面對重大安全挑戰或迫切需求時"},{"start":2355.031,"end":2371.076,"text":"提供具實效性資源挹注補強既有預算配置可兼顧經費完整性及預算規模穩定為適應當前嚴峻敵情威脅國防部具提出強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例及特別預算規劃"},{"start":2374.921,"end":2390.601,"text":"擬於115至122年投入新台幣1兆2500億元為上限金額籌購精準火炮等系列裝備達成建構高度強韌全面嚇阻防衛戰力五 特別預算規劃執行案項"},{"start":2392.762,"end":2417.614,"text":"本部強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別預算涵蓋三大特色包含建構防衛體系打造台灣之盾引進高科技與AI加速擊殺鏈後值國防產業打造飛鴻供應鏈內含結構分明聚焦不對稱戰力之整合與強化防衛韌性案項說明如後如特別條例當中之一至七款"},{"start":2418.334,"end":2429.559,"text":"第一款精準火炮籌購M109A7自走炮60門精準彈藥4088彈藥車60輛救濟車13輛牛彈及其他附屬裝備第二款遠程精準打擊飛彈籌購海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統82套精準火箭1203箱戰術區域飛彈420枚第三款"},{"start":2447.935,"end":2476.704,"text":"無人載具及其反制系統第一項 反甲型無人機飛彈系統籌購Altius 700M1554架及Altius 600 ISR型478架第二項 濱海尖針型 濱海攻擊型含沉浸 投彈 自殺等各類無人機20餘萬架無人艇1000餘艘第三項 各類無人機反制系統"},{"start":2478.274,"end":2488.676,"text":"第四款 防空反彈道及反裝甲飛彈籌購標槍反裝甲飛彈70套1050枚托式2B反裝甲飛彈24套1545枚及各式防空飛彈系統含彈藥第五款 AI輔助與C8SR系統"},{"start":2501.257,"end":2510.353,"text":"第一項人工智慧決策支援系統第二項戰術網路及部隊快速情資分享應用套件第六款"},{"start":2511.978,"end":2539.304,"text":"強化作戰持續量能相關裝備第一項因應戰時高消耗擴增軍備產線你籌建各類型彈藥發射藥產線各式槍彈敵火生產線各式新式甲車組裝線高能炸藥生產線化學防護面具生產線及夜視鏡生產線等第二項機動阻絕器材以提升戰場阻絕能力為主"},{"start":2541.636,"end":2553.702,"text":"第三項產線未建立前為滿足戰備存量提升與基本訊號需求你籌購重要急缺彈藥項目包含120公里戰車砲彈、105公里戰車砲彈、30公里機砲彈、155公里流彈發射藥包及強力高能炸藥等項目"},{"start":2563.308,"end":2575.238,"text":"第七款台美共同研發及採購合作之裝備系統採購台美共同研發及採購合作之裝備以獲取新興科技系統被強化作戰韌性及提升不對稱戰力結語"},{"start":2578.197,"end":2597.603,"text":"因應地緣政治變化今年全球各國均大幅提升國防預算在未來數年內多數國家將大量採購武器裝備其中多數與我同類型需求相同極有可能相互排擠因此儘速籌獲迫切需要之關鍵不對稱與防衛韌性武器裝備極為必要懇請大院體會國軍武器裝備籌購之資源困境儘速將115年"},{"start":2605.265,"end":2612.308,"text":"總預算案及強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力企劃採購特別條例附會成長報告RMP盡情指教我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":2642.508,"end":2643.489,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長羅委員"},{"start":2654.663,"end":2657.846,"text":"部長早部長這個會期即將結束這禮拜是這個會期的最後一個禮拜結果呢我們的政府總預算一毛錢都沒有省那強化防衛任性跟不對稱戰略的國防特別預算也是一再的被丟包在這個程序委員會"},{"start":2675.643,"end":2678.344,"text":"國防部今天的專案報告也說得非常的清楚國防預算區分為國務預算、特種基金跟特別預算然後每個預算各自其實是承擔了不同的功能要互相搭配才能夠比較完整來健全我國的"},{"start":2696.748,"end":2701.735,"text":"防衛能力那之前呢我看到這個台灣立志協會TIA做了一個民調他這民調有提到就是說有70.7%的這個國人認為呢目前國防我國的國防是不足以保護安全"},{"start":2713.05,"end":2718.334,"text":"再來有62.5%的民眾認為 阻擋國防特別預算是非常的不恰當的我也希望說在野黨的同仁們 可以看到這一份民調其實大家目前阻擋國防特別預算也好 或者是總預算也好其實國人是不認同的"},{"start":2734.987,"end":2753.257,"text":"再來我有看到報告裡面有提到就是115年國防部的公務預算已經是創了歷年的最高如果想要快速的來提升戰力的話我們目前的國防公務預算是沒有辦法來滿足新增案的需求"},{"start":2753.997,"end":2771.848,"text":"面對中國武力的威脅,國防特別預算就是要來補強既有預算的不足,提供實效性資源的預助。可是不管是公務預算也好,特別預算或特別條例,現在都是被擱置的。"},{"start":2773.349,"end":2788.275,"text":"那面對中國這麼嚴厲的武力的威脅我本席真的非常的遺憾在野黨的委員是視而不見 一再的阻擋那好115年度的總預算卡關的話又影響了一些像新興的一些案件其實是會延宕的甚至到目前是沒有辦法來做建制的像這個具有阻嚇戰力的海馬斯、魚叉、飛彈等等"},{"start":2802,"end":2817.346,"text":"這些到目前為止都還沒有,他就是沒有辦法進行下一步那還有具有不對稱戰力的這個標槍、刺針、飛彈等等那當然在野黨口口聲聲說,哎呀我們要我們要照顧這個官兵啊我們要提升這個戰鬥人員的這個戰鬥能力啊可是你們看一看,像這個有被擱置的這個預算裡面其中有88億的F16的訓練等等"},{"start":2827.752,"end":2856.672,"text":"這個很重要耶當我們這些戰鬥人員在執行任務的時候扎實的訓練才能夠保障他們的安全啊那我們說我們要照顧官兵可是呢連他們這老舊的這個營舍你都不願意來做修繕所以動不動就說要提升要提升他們這個薪資過去說實在過去以來我們提升了多少次的薪資可是真正要保護他們的安全真正要照顧到他們的生活的這部分呢卻是呢在野黨是一毛都不願意"},{"start":2857.332,"end":2873.79,"text":"真的是非常的這個糟糕明天呢就是再一次的程序委員會了就算是順利蔡議長良心發現了這個順利來復位的話說實在這會期也來不及來選了因為這個禮拜五我們這個會期就結束了那再來還有提到的就是這個"},{"start":2875.471,"end":2898.207,"text":"國防的特別預算在上個禮拜一的時候我們王定宇召委就安排了一次的機密會議可是機密會議結束之後還是有很多委員說我們真的不知道要買什麼其實全院的113位的立法委員都可以去參與上個禮拜一的如果你想真正了解的話"},{"start":2898.687,"end":2916.51,"text":"都可以去參加這次的機密會議很遺憾的真的是寥寥無幾可是呢我們真的覺得說真的國家的安全真的比其他任何的這個利益都還是重要我們不希望說國家的安全國防的軍備作為在野黨跟"},{"start":2918.512,"end":2922.715,"text":"國外勢力交換的利益這是讓人家覺得非常遺憾的地方再來我想請教的就是說我們一直有提到國防自主未來可能我們要成為非紅產業鏈的一環我有看到前陣子有專家指出主要的武器裝備從接裝到處理平均使用的年限大約是15到20年甚至會更長"},{"start":2944.953,"end":2948.478,"text":"那這段期間呢這彈藥的補充戶勤的維修零組件更換跟這個維保能量呢我們沒有辦法一直呢到目前為止我們是高度仰賴國外所以如果遇到這個交付延遲政治限制或暫時封鎖的話就可能是國防自主的一個結構性的風險"},{"start":2962.136,"end":2966.78,"text":"因此像國防預算 我們其實戰略的意義是把握對外採購的使於同時也要帶動國內的產製技術轉移跟產業鏈的建構讓軍購跟國防自主能夠平衡的發展當然我們也希望能夠帶動國內產業鏈的發展我想請教的就是說當然最近也看到有很多的國人在質疑就是說像我們"},{"start":2989.418,"end":3003.841,"text":"國防部在採購這個軍品軍備或勞務這個採購的時候呢我們都會用比如說有些公開的部分我們用公開抓標的方式來尋找協力廠商那大家很擔心的很擔心的就是說這些廠商會不會成為中共刺探然後鎖定滲透的這個目標請問部長跟委員報告就是說採購的案件它"},{"start":3016.99,"end":3045.259,"text":"會按照那個構案的機密的屬性來審慎檢討適當的一個招標的方式那如果是屬於公開招標的話公開招標的內容就限於依法可以揭露的這些基本的採購資訊那如果涉及到這個機密的話不管是作案能力裝備性能或敏感的需求等等就不對外公開然後依規定來辦理這個機密的分級跟管控"},{"start":3046.041,"end":3063.334,"text":"那另外如果說這個整個的購案的工項或籌貨的標的是屬於機密及以上的密等的話那按照政府採購法規定本來就是可以不適用這個公開照標的那主要當然我們"},{"start":3064.999,"end":3079.874,"text":"會不適用公開招標案也包括就是說這些面臨戰爭或戰備動員時的武器彈藥機密或極機密的採購以及危及重大戰備的這些緊急採購所以我們大概會做這樣子的一個"},{"start":3080.855,"end":3098.947,"text":"在採公開照標跟非公開照標的一個區隔這樣先跟委員說明所以這部分的話基本上來講到主要是公開照標的部分其實大家其實是不用那麼這麼大的擔心那當然還有針對系統維護啦還有是檔案建檔等等那當然這些維修人員必須進入到金區"},{"start":3099.947,"end":3123.794,"text":"然後接觸設備的勞務案件那當然我們有看到大家有在想說那這些得標廠商跟這些人員會不會又被中共鎖定作為滲透的目標像這個的話我們如何進行接觸的這個控管就得標之後這個廠商人員進入的話那我們會對這個廠商的背景跟實際施工進入的這些人員會做一個安全查核然後"},{"start":3126.656,"end":3140.798,"text":"另外我們當然還要看這個機密屬性的等級跟這個軍品的性質會有一個不同程度的一個查核的頻次跟深度這樣子"},{"start":3142.364,"end":3158.652,"text":"所以說因為這些外來這些這些人員維修人員畢竟就是不是我們我們軍區裡面的這個人員我們是還是說還是要請外面的進來所以像這樣這個的話對於這個可以說是中國中共的這個滲透式"},{"start":3159.372,"end":3176.557,"text":"無所不入所以我們會面對這些進到營區去的這些維修人員所以大家都會很擔心就是說他們會被鎖定所以像這之前的話那國防部其實也都有一些很嚴厲的控管是這樣子的意思嗎"},{"start":3177.677,"end":3202.859,"text":"背景等等的他要先辦一個安全查核查核後才可以進入營去參與這些勞務的施作那這個當然是我們盡量來來努力來做這樣子但是我想我們會持續強化但中國的這些滲透確實是越來越嚴重那我們所努力的能夠"},{"start":3203.92,"end":3211.471,"text":"做的當然就是剛剛講的對這些廠商做安全查核那對這些比較機敏的這些屬性的這些比較機敏的"},{"start":3216.028,"end":3231.66,"text":"營區或者比較機敏的這個軍品的這些項目或比較機敏的這些勞務司做的這些項目我們可能要還要進一步來來深化我們的查核的這個廣度跟深度我想這個都應該來來來持續加以精進"},{"start":3235.917,"end":3260.843,"text":"對中共的無孔不入的滲透當然是方方面面都要非常的謹慎當然我還是要提到國防特別條例該公開的部分我們也都公開了該召開的機密會議我們也都召開了部長想請問您認為這一次已經讓大家都充分的了解到國防特別條例跟國防特別預算這方面的急迫需求性嗎"},{"start":3262.871,"end":3276.289,"text":"我想我們大概已經在上一次的機密專報裡面已經有一個全盤說明這個一兆2500億在這個八年期間我們所要"},{"start":3277.911,"end":3306.209,"text":"的一個籌貨的這些特別著重於不對稱戰力跟防衛韌性的一些項目那我們認為如果有這樣子的一個特別條例的一個籌貨我們就能夠專注於這個讓這個具有整個經費的完整性跟預算規模的穩定性的情況之下我們就能夠構成一個高度強韌的"},{"start":3307.09,"end":3320.977,"text":"然後全面嚇阻的這個還原能力那我想昨天應該是禮拜最近嘛 禮拜就國防戰略的部分是剛剛公布嘛 對不對"},{"start":3322.199,"end":3341.642,"text":"美國剛剛公布美國剛剛公布我想他是延續國家安全戰略而來的那這個裡面有特別強調一點就是說要在整個第一島鏈全面建構這個集體嚇阻的能力那要求各有盟國家來分擔這樣子的一個責任那我想"},{"start":3342.142,"end":3367.174,"text":"在國家安全戰略裡面已經也將台灣列為第一島鏈的這個具有關鍵的地位所以對於我們要強化自我防禦能力我們站在第一島鏈的樞紐地位然後站在前沿面對強敵我想我們不可能有絲毫時間上面的一個浪費所以我們今天這個報告也充分也在"},{"start":3368.355,"end":3386.736,"text":"希望詳細的表達公務預算的配置然後基金的有限性然後再強調特別預算的一個迫切性與必要性那在這邊當然很誠摯的希望朝野都能夠支持那這樣子的一個特別預算編列其實是"},{"start":3388.217,"end":3415.792,"text":"我們也事先有跟美方做一個溝通那我想籌獲這些相關的武器對我們的戰力提升居居關鍵那我們如果沒有辦法通過的話我覺得影響是非常大非常大這個友盟對我們的這個我們到底有沒有意願要來防衛我們自己我們要不要來"},{"start":3418.072,"end":3440.039,"text":"一體力來構建一個嚇阻的戰力來持續來維持印太地區那特別是台海地區的一個和平穩定這個真的是非常攸關的一個特別預算條例那如果能夠護衛那有任何的疑問我想"},{"start":3441.599,"end":3466.505,"text":"我也在說過能夠公開的我們就會盡量予以公開不能公開我們就來開機密專報跟每個委員做一個詳盡的說明但是我們真的真的非常期待這個預算能夠這個條例能夠覆為那當然年度預算的這個部分這個也涉及到我們相關的這些"},{"start":3468.006,"end":3476.448,"text":"不管是人員維持 作業維持 軍事投資這個都有關我們的相關戰力維持剛剛委員也提到了 因為他如果不付"},{"start":3477.607,"end":3499.502,"text":"不審查的話不只是影響到我們的新增計畫案就是就算是我們的金額就算是作業維持費的金額只要這個項目的金額高過於去年的金額這個金額就不能夠去動用所以譬如說海馬斯那這個海馬斯去年編譬如說編100塊那我們今年編到"},{"start":3500.982,"end":3523.689,"text":"再多的 那多的部分就不能夠那海馬斯是屬於他要儘速快速交付的一個項目之一那這個影響會非常非常的大所以我們當然還是誠摯的期待朝野都能夠同意將這個我們的支持我們的國防預算那將年度總預算案覆為也將特別條例來覆為這樣"},{"start":3525.521,"end":3542.064,"text":"OK 好 我在想國防部已經進了最大的努力該公開的已經公開了然後呢 機密的上個禮拜也都召開了我都希望我希望說這是大家該了解的還是說進一步想要了解那就是副委來做審查"},{"start":3542.685,"end":3558.4,"text":"那我知道之前像前陣子AIT的處長吳立彥處長說Freedom is not free我想這個是非常重要的一句話真的是不管是國防特別條例 國防特別預算其實都有它的急迫性跟重要性好 以上謝謝好 謝謝 謝委員接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":3575.56,"end":3577.888,"text":"好 召委有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":3586.337,"end":3610.232,"text":"是 陳偉華部長您好剛才聽取了報告我特別今天藉這個機會回應您剛才講的上週美國發布了它的國防戰略那麼是根據國家安全戰略的上層指導那美國在2017年就把四年期國防總檢討把它廢止了然後每四年公佈一次"},{"start":3611.112,"end":3638.05,"text":"美国的国家防卫战略然后后面再有军事战略请教部长我们有没有办法要想修正我们的QDR因为这里面的内容主轴是有落差的我们现在看了美国的国家安全战略美国的国防战略后面还有军事战略出来以战规师的角度我们会不会要跟美国做同步的修正这个概念"},{"start":3641.045,"end":3669.013,"text":"鮑元我們相關的整個戰略規劃的部分事實上都一直在做整體的檢討跟考量那主要的部分我們就目前敵心威脅陡峰的狀況下我們是針對我們的防衛作戰構想跟上層次的軍事戰略上面去做檢討至於全班性的國防戰略的這個部分後面我們還是會依據我們整個戰略規劃的腳步來做一定程度的檢討"},{"start":3670.871,"end":3686.571,"text":"我提个建议就是我们去年出版的QDR比较上一个版本从48页进步到59页那谈国防战略军事战略从1.5页进步到4页这是有进步的那去年出的国防报告书"},{"start":3687.392,"end":3707.33,"text":"这个白皮书那么谈到国防战略跟军事战略从四页增加到六页有精进但是呢如果对应美国的这个国防战略的话我们面对这个重大的挑战这个内容啊我觉得还是要强化那么现在回到今天的主题啊就是谈到了这个"},{"start":3708.716,"end":3724.743,"text":"我们面对的挑战这是越来越严重因此的经费增加是所必然在刚才的过程中间前面的委员提到了就是说freedom is not free"},{"start":3727.082,"end":3743.716,"text":"but it's free to justify the cost that we can bearto secure Taiwan national securityand protect democracy所以英文不能只講前句後面還有它的但書同樣就是說我們在軍事採購的過程中間也有很多的"},{"start":3744.517,"end":3765.614,"text":"想定跟立案条件我们谈到无人机无人机是未来作战的一个趋势这是非常重要的在报告里面也列选了不管是从国外进口的军售的乃至于商售合作在国内生产20余万架无人机我相信在陆军的使用可能会超过一半陆军参谋长是"},{"start":3773.622,"end":3795.564,"text":"這個前面的論述我們完全是支持國防部的想法陸軍是在2026年前7月要編成大隊了但是實際上這種輕型的不管是徵收的或是攻擊型或是消耗式的無人機陸軍應該有佔到20萬架的一半以上吧江進"},{"start":3796.894,"end":3807.592,"text":"也是说这个状况下人员的训练年度这个训练的缘额额度还要强化要增加我们可以看一个就是说乌克兰"},{"start":3808.72,"end":3827.6,"text":"这个俄乌战争中间他们的无人机消耗每天2000架但是光在乌冬的战场就是台湾的两倍半的面积那我们的无人机的作业运用构想应该是在贪案防卫第一线这个是消耗性是很大的"},{"start":3828.16,"end":3848.994,"text":"因此你在无人机的储存库储料配件还有它的这个所谓的通讯频道在前面的预制规划先要跟不只是我们军用的频道那很多的民谣频道先要做沟通因为这个时候平时跟战时它是不用的"},{"start":3849.614,"end":3863.981,"text":"而不一樣的如果你覺得我們的wifi平時可用暫時不一定可靠那另外呢這個烏克蘭的無人機啊確實發揮了很大的效益可是如果沒有"},{"start":3865.161,"end":3886.464,"text":"新链也就是说Starlink去support它的无人机的功效都没有办法发挥我们因为目前还没有新链的合约当然在所谓Amazon未来的Blue Origin里面可能会有4508个卫星我们能不能合作"},{"start":3887.185,"end":3904.105,"text":"得到平宽这个未来是要共同努力所以无人机的消耗它是一个必然的但是年度人员的训练跟料配件的储存跟你的库房整建我觉得陆军在这个方面请强化您回答一下"},{"start":3905.39,"end":3926.648,"text":"包委員 我就幾個面向向您報告第一個 也有人質疑說在需求上面這麼數量這麼高的無人機我們全軍的編制還不及這個數量怎麼可能會操作那我在這邊說明一下這個數量的計算它包含到我們平常的訓練的需求還有所謂的戰備存量"},{"start":3927.388,"end":3944.708,"text":"而且它最主要也考虑到了无人机的迭代它并不是一次的获得这里面除了硬体的需求软体的更新还有它相关的通联都必须要有扩充性所以在这个方面是有纳入规划的那第二个部分有关于整个无人机的库储"},{"start":3945.589,"end":3970.541,"text":"那它包含到彈庫或是所謂的特定軍品庫房還有包含到庫房的整建修建在我們的整個規劃裡面都也有同步的納入規劃最後一點像委員報告就是說有關於無人機的頻率那我們在軍用無人機上面是屬於專屬的頻道那另外我們現在也在針對整個頻譜管理制定相關的單位來負責 以上報告"},{"start":3972.762,"end":4001.378,"text":"是那后面我特别用这张图提供您参考我们讲要去掉非红供应链那这里面还有几项通讯晶片这个非控软体含AI热像仪GPS的晶片非控晶片雷射测距这个部分中科院会跟国内产业甚至跟国外做合作因为这有一部分并不是在国内生产的院长您这边在这个地方强化解释一下"},{"start":4004.757,"end":4026.583,"text":"剛好今天有經濟部的官員出席我們這幾年從經濟部的無人機統籌型預算裡面獲得不少研發的經費這些經費不是只有我們自己在研究是跟國內的業者共同在開發研究這些晶片大概都已經到了相當成熟的程度只是後面的製程安排要必須要由我們的國內的生產廠商還願意把它的產線讓給我們來做製程的安排"},{"start":4029.005,"end":4044.458,"text":"好 这个要国内就是产业 企业 国防总括我们大家共同努力我们最后一个图片特别讲就是讲到台湾之盾实际上我们因为不同层级的sensor 侦搜器"},{"start":4045.459,"end":4074.155,"text":"那么还有不同的载台平台武器发射那要透过一个完整的网络架构链路那包括多轨追踪情资融合链路整合要产生一个复合同向也就是共同的图像这是一个组合起来涵盖台湾的周遭实际上我们的雷达sensor可能有几十座上百座有固定的有机动的那么目前IBCS的概念也导入进来了"},{"start":4075.031,"end":4096.388,"text":"可是因为我们在太空方面的能力是比较薄弱所以要靠美国的协助DSP卫星预警配合我们长程预警雷达产生的网路架构我上次也跟大家讲过了去中心化不是目标只是你的方法手段可是现在已经强调了我们要建立"},{"start":4097.642,"end":4125.609,"text":"叫什么联合火力协调中心那这个火协中心的目的就是C5ISR加Ttargeting因为对于固定目标的反制像海马斯是陆上目标你有坐标可是对于机动目标的critical timing那就必须要很短的时间做协调因此这个步骤我们看到跟美方合作成立这个构想这是很好的"},{"start":4126.269,"end":4138.36,"text":"那么国军这个持恒强化战力也在逐步往前推这里面有一个关键的我们一直在讲不对称战力不对称战力里面有一项就是人才的培养"},{"start":4139.249,"end":4168.669,"text":"因为你的硬体装备啊包括DP受训啊我们这个都了解这个重要性可是后续的原额跟经费啊这个要大幅的提支你比方讲我们原来买的这个海马斯M142原来是28加1现在再买82就已经111套了那它的目标的分配啊跟鱼叉这个火鞋中间就是产生了一个这很重要那不同的装备不同的界面问题呢有但是要克服要解决"},{"start":4169.309,"end":4197.337,"text":"所以在人才培养上面也就是说从各学校的这个宾科学校专业教育到联合子餐教育的准则教范这一定要赶快我想国防大学这个陆院的这个UTM坐标图纸图那个该精进了吧现在演习还是把纸图拼起来的那你将来怎么样学校毕业的人去配合我们新装备呢这个国防大学您做个简短回答"},{"start":4199.759,"end":4227.518,"text":"跟委員報告現在我們這個各子彈學院現在都有把這些相關的新興的武器啊都已經納入課程裡面了然後有相關那個剛才講到那個UTM座標啊還有那個相關那個共同圖像也都納入課程裡面然後現在那個那個最新的圖資啊我們都有配合我們國防部情事室那邊都有做一個申請申請跟更新然後後續啊所有的硬體硬體跟軟體啊設備啊我們都會有一個期程來做一個相應的一個一個規劃跟"},{"start":4228.541,"end":4229.872,"text":"跟他更放心"},{"start":4231.156,"end":4260.479,"text":"我想裝備的獲得籌貨很重要持續後面的維保也重要但操作人員更重要在這個部分我覺得要大家共同努力部長您請您做一個簡短回應我想剛剛委員的指教都很正確那有一些相關的一些事項我想我們必須要私下跟委員再做說明但是剛剛委員提到人員的培訓的部分當然是裡面非常非常重要的一塊是以上 謝謝好 謝謝大家共同努力"},{"start":4266.148,"end":4283.345,"text":"接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們有請顧部長"},{"start":4289.894,"end":4314.949,"text":"部長早部長我們今天還是接續要討論的是國防預算的一個相關編列這不只是我們國內的這個民眾非常關心也是國際友盟觀察我們自我防衛的一個決心一項非常重要的指標那我們現在不只是面對中共灰色地帶一個侵擾的一個升級那同時也是因應中國可能由訓轉嚴甚至由嚴轉戰的一個嚴峻敵情"},{"start":4319.656,"end":4341.817,"text":"看到這個在印太地區其他有盟國家包括日本韓國菲律賓再到美國澳洲等等都對國防預算進行檢討加大對於國防的一個投資來因應這個中共的軍事擴張台灣當然更有迫切的需求要盡速來提升我們自我防衛的一個能力"},{"start":4343.218,"end":4362.523,"text":"我們回顧政府所編列的整體國防預算從2020年的4000億到去年的6470億再到今年希望能夠超過GDP3%的一個門檻當中也包括還在執行的新式戰機的採購海空戰力的提升國安任性等"},{"start":4363.263,"end":4387.746,"text":"的特別預算那自從行政院在去年11月提出這項強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力的一個特別條例至今還沒有進入我們委員會來審查所以我想還是就幾個問題來跟部長您做討論其中我們現行的這個公務預算它的規模為何不能夠"},{"start":4390.512,"end":4415.855,"text":"來應對我們目前的這個威脅基於什麼樣的原因必須要透過跨年期的這個特別預算來執行那其次當我們的這個特別預算在國防支出的佔比有所增加我們在相關作業維持的這個支出上是不是能夠趕得上武器採購一併提升以確保我們裝備的這個戰力這部分是不是請部長做簡要的說明"},{"start":4416.695,"end":4434.126,"text":"我想分兩點第一點就是說假設我們有一個八年期的一個特別預算的話這整個的預算的規模它會是穩定的我們的預算的整個完整性跟穩定性就能夠確保那你如果排入年度預算那每年的年度預算這個"},{"start":4436.048,"end":4448.165,"text":"規模就沒有辦法有一個明白的確定那是第一點 第二點就是說年度預算如果我們將所有的這些我們的整體的需求都納入到年度預算的話"},{"start":4450.612,"end":4466.894,"text":"這個佔的這個排擠的這個如果全數由公預算編列會佔政府總預算會近高達百分之二十九那二十九那等於是會影響其他的民生經濟社福教育等的一個推動"},{"start":4467.675,"end":4495.674,"text":"所以我們一方面遵守財政紀律法將這個來來編列那一方面我們將這個特別預算用一個八年期讓他的整個預算的來源能夠穩定那經費能夠完整那這樣那當然我們每一在特別條例通過之後我們所做籌過的項目也是要經過大院來來來逐項的審核核准同意那我想一旦我想如果能夠有這樣子的一個八年期的這個這個"},{"start":4497.615,"end":4518.536,"text":"特別條例的預算的話我們另外年度預算的部分我想剛剛委員也提到其實各國都在預算的規模都在持續的增加我們也要增加但是我們增加的幅度再搭配特別預算的話我想這個兩者結合才能夠真正的整體的來增強我們的"},{"start":4519.987,"end":4543.634,"text":"這個即戰力的好那在這項特別預算規劃上從今年開始要執行了然後那在時間緊迫的問題上我想這個先前我們國防部也提出事件如果在預算審議的這個程序上有所延誕恐怕會導致我們裝備的這個交貨期被其他國家插隊影響的時間未來可能是以年"},{"start":4544.994,"end":4572.105,"text":"來計算這也反映到我們當前國際地緣政治的一個緊張導致全球這個軍工產能吃緊的情形並不是有錢就隨時都能買到我們想要的武器而是要和其他國家來做排隊那這一部分我想請教部長如果我們再失去在這個產線上的一個排序哪些武器可能會特別受到衝擊那對於我們整備的這個期程又有多大的影響"},{"start":4572.864,"end":4589.466,"text":"另外除了目前已經知會我們國會的五項裝備還有部分的這個案項還在由美方審查當中那我們是否已經確保能夠獲得剩餘的這些項目包委員我這邊做個簡單的說明"},{"start":4591.263,"end":4607.245,"text":"我們目前編列這些項目已經智慧國會的這些幾乎每一項都是全球各國接下來會大量採購的因為目前各國面對的主要威脅包含了中共 俄羅斯跟北韓"},{"start":4608.413,"end":4627.316,"text":"那在這三個國家裡面防空飛彈跟反彈道飛彈的需求幾乎是一致的那在地面作戰上面輕便的反裝甲武器還有精準火砲的這個部分尤其是155公里彈藥的這個部分也是很明顯的一個需求"},{"start":4628.223,"end":4644.505,"text":"那要跟委員補充報告的是我們接下來發價書因為已經過了30天應該在近期即將就會拿到如果我們在45天之內一般來說45天的效期之內沒有處理"},{"start":4645.848,"end":4661.078,"text":"那理論上可以延長一次但是那不是一定的如果美方不同意發價書延長那我們勢必得整個程序要再走一遍那這個耗費的時間我們上次有跟委員報過我們從"},{"start":4663.099,"end":4682.151,"text":"去年大概3月份左右提出這個需求一直到12月才撤回國會中間耗了8個多月的時間如果我們後面在時程上面延宕到發價書後續跟美方議談跟簽署的時間的話他所拖延的時間會更進一步的擴大"},{"start":4684.599,"end":4711.402,"text":"好 那我們這次提出來也是要強調要強化我們國防自主和發展軍工的產業尤其是要扶植我們國內無人載具和AI的產業近期我們總統也有提到國防特別預算不僅守護國家的安全更是要推動我們產業升級的一個重要動能而除了對美採購之外預算當中也有一定比例是要留給我們國內產制"},{"start":4713.291,"end":4738.501,"text":"那在規劃這個籌購的品項當中有超過20萬架的各式無人機會優先以我們國產為主那在這相當於考驗我們國內廠商的這個產能是否能夠負擔以及供應鏈的整個體系的建構是否足夠完整那不論是對於我們軍工產能的一個擴大或是給予我們國內廠商的一個協助應該都是由國防部"},{"start":4739.201,"end":4760.132,"text":"和相關單位跨部會一起來合作這部分我想和部長您討論是國內我們軍工產業的這個規模還在成長當中那對於打造這個飛鴻供應鏈如何擴大我們業者參與的這個動機或是提供這個測試的場域以及接軌國際供應鏈等等我們國防部有什麼樣的一個實際規劃或作為"},{"start":4761.593,"end":4787.689,"text":"能夠進一步簡單的說明嗎是 薛委員我想剛剛委員提到有兩點非常重要一個是非紅供應鏈非紅供應鏈的部分特別在無人機上面有一些相關的這些不管是通訊導航這些都會涉及到如果我們不排除紅色的供應鏈的話我們會在這個無人機的這個打造上面這個會值得看慮那所以這個不是只有我們擔心包括美國"},{"start":4788.61,"end":4814.272,"text":"包括其他的印太區域的國家甚至歐洲國家也都擔心所以在無人的載具上面打造一個飛鴻供應鏈是相當重要的那因為過去大家也都知道在無人機的市場上面這個以現在來講民用的大將無人機他所佔的一個市場的佔有率是相當相當的高的所以我們國防部要建立一個長單的需求然後來"},{"start":4817.034,"end":4830.02,"text":"來讓這個我們的產業願意來投入這個產線這是第一點那第二點無人機它有一個迭代創新的一個特色也就是說我們不是像說這個馬尼瓜M1A2"},{"start":4830.82,"end":4845.956,"text":"那我們就用MNT那它性能升級可能可以但是是相當有限但是無人機是非常迭代創新的所以我們今天談到一個差異化的全收集管理所以無人機我們會有依照軍種的不同需求陸軍有陸軍的需求"},{"start":4848.238,"end":4868.326,"text":"這個海軍亂隊有海軍亂隊的需求這個海軍有海軍的需求那甚至空軍也有一些比較大型的一些需求等等那這些相關的這些需求我們把它納入各種的無人機的這個硬體的面那同時在硬體面之外我們要將軟體的更新感測跟通聯系統的升級等等都要依照科技發展的"},{"start":4869.707,"end":4898.042,"text":"這個進程來及時提升那這整個的這種無人機的這個籌貨的模式其實會跟過去傳統武器會有相當的不一樣那這一個部分就要靠國內的這些產業他願意投入產線那同時他也願意不管是跟我們既有的不管是中研院或者是其他這些單位來合作同時國外國外的部分也要加入然後形成合作"},{"start":4898.502,"end":4922.662,"text":"那同時產一個技術轉移那最最重要的就是說要在地的量能要能夠提升之後我們這個國防自主才能夠維護因為一旦面臨任何的緊急狀況的時候我們如果能夠依照烏克蘭的經驗我們能夠在地的自主生產這對於整個的防衛作戰的韌性的強化是佔了一個非常關鍵重要的地位好"},{"start":4924.11,"end":4941.852,"text":"那我想面對這個敵情的一個威脅日劇的嚴重那我們這個國防部要如何在最短的時間內來提升我們的戰力爭取相關的這個軍工產線的一個排序我想這部分還是要請我們國防部這個"},{"start":4943.669,"end":4971.706,"text":"接續的這個去做努力我們做整體的規劃然後也不斷的會持續來精進檢討那在這個國防安全方面我想還是要強化我們自我的這個國防能力才能夠真正的來防衛到我們國家的安全我相信這是大家都能夠認同也都是正確的一個方向那敵人的這個威脅還有這個敵人的這個武力的這個"},{"start":4973.047,"end":5001.024,"text":"矩爭 對我們國家的一個安全的一個這個恫嚇我想這是我們目前在整個這個社會氛圍上我們都感受得到所以也唯有這個備戰才能夠止戰我相信這也是很正確的一個方向人家在說的這個靠爹你若沒生肉然後你自己如果沒有媽嫂的話我想這個強權國家對於我們的吞噬對於我們的一個威脅會日據的嚴重這也是不變的定律"},{"start":5001.924,"end":5024.329,"text":"還是要懇請我們所有的委員不分朝野能夠對於我們國防預算的一個支持能夠盡快讓我們相關的預算通過之後讓我們國防部盡快來對於相關武器的採購可以有一個更加接續的程序來進行好 謝謝 敬請大院能夠支持好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員的諮詢好 謝謝"},{"start":5034.096,"end":5036.438,"text":"下面我們請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長"},{"start":5054.038,"end":5081.714,"text":"部長好部長今天其實有幾位委員大概有提到就是希望包括國防部的立場都希望大家朝野都可以支持我們國防預算從過去到現在我相信所有的委員都是非常支持我們的國防預算只是這個必須要站在監督的立場我相信今天大家可以基本上探討一些這樣的部分所以在這裡我們要表明的是"},{"start":5082.334,"end":5096.179,"text":"不管是怎麼樣的一個只要國防部要購買先進的武器增加國軍作戰能力我們絕對不非反反對可是我們有高額的這樣子的國防預算尤其我們從過去3000億到6000億到現在9000多億的公務預算在剛通過的"},{"start":5104.062,"end":5122.735,"text":"任性預算裡面其實也剛通過1100多億那現在又要編高額的這樣子的一個特別預算高達一兆2500億我相信國人也非常的關注因為就像部長剛剛說的其實他可能會牽涉到會有排擠的一個作用"},{"start":5123.295,"end":5143.531,"text":"他面對我們的所有的民生所有的社福所有的醫療還包括所有的基礎建設可能都會受到衝擊所以如果國防這個部分的預算這麼重要我相信他更應該清楚的向國人交代在這之前事實上我們是沒有清楚的"},{"start":5144.252,"end":5152.276,"text":"就上一次開個全機密會議以外那機密會議以後才稍微公布了一些公開的這樣相關的預算也在那個時候才稍微把這樣的一個1.25兆想要花的錢稍微具體化一點雖然這裡面還有很多的問題所以我們也希望如果有收受外國資金有收受外國金錢的"},{"start":5172.204,"end":5193.354,"text":"其實是不應該隨便去指控別人沒有要監督或者像這樣的立場我覺得是不適當的因為這樣會讓人家覺得說是不是在當說客或者是在幫某些國家在爭取這樣的資源我想今天大家的立場都是一樣我們都希望好好的去看這筆預算"},{"start":5195.435,"end":5207.904,"text":"當時我們會希望有一些就像我們的公寓預算一樣啊你有一些會是機密的那個我們非常尊重過去機密預算大概都是美方如果他還沒有支會國會之前我們會"},{"start":5210.646,"end":5232.122,"text":"有默契的把它放在機密預算或者如果你是有一些特別可能在研發階段或有其他相關的這樣考量會放在機密可是不會包括像要買無人機無人艇或者像要買其他的彈藥或者其他的本來都已經放在公務預算的這些部分你還把它放在機密的報告裡面這樣會讓人家覺得好像裝神弄鬼"},{"start":5237.566,"end":5242.11,"text":"這是我們不能接受的所以就這個部分我們還是希望在後續我們還是可以好好的來探討這個部分因為今天我們攤開內容來看我們有提到就是除了這些機密的部分以外無論是無人機雷霆2000次世代系統機器狗彈藥產線還有各種人在研發中的新型裝備"},{"start":5264.501,"end":5272.887,"text":"這些都不是突發的我們編列特別預算其實他是有特別的需求跟考量比如說我們已經快要發生戰爭了這是非常風險非常高的狀況或者我們碰到天災地變或者重大的經濟傷害的時候其實特別預算編列的條件他是有規範的"},{"start":5284.554,"end":5309.522,"text":"不是我們用口頭說現在很需要然後我們需要穩定性所謂的穩定性我不曉得我們過去到現在我們在正常的公務預算裡面有什麼不穩定我們從過去到現在我們給的很多預算裡面通常是我們給了錢可是他武器裝備到現在沒有到位這是現在正在發生的事情而不是我們的立法院沒有給錢"},{"start":5311.226,"end":5316.988,"text":"根本沒有發生這樣的事情而且有所謂的不穩定是因為我們所有的武器裝備或者我們採購的項目沒有到位或者達不到標準而不是沒有經費所以這個部分想要在這裡先釐清所以它如果既然不是突發然後不可預期然後也不是沒有辦法納入規劃的事件這些本來就應該要放在五年建軍計劃裡面"},{"start":5338.157,"end":5345.499,"text":"依他的成熟度分年編列逐年審查他的建軍項目即便需要加速你也可以完成分年編列特別預算如果他有急需的話我們也同意他可以分年編列特別預算而不是用一個總括式的特別條例把所有的項目一次打包而且這都是後來才填進去的之前你們有讓委員會知道嗎有讓全體國人知道嗎"},{"start":5368.396,"end":5375.559,"text":"這個也是特別條例最大的風險所在因為一旦條例通過他預算被匡列了一照2500億其實他就是把它用到晚為止我們過去的前瞻預算8800億現在我們發現有一些少子化辦公室或者相關的預算其實有一些您這樣子講應該不適合您作為這麼多的召委講的議事程序的內容吧"},{"start":5393.145,"end":5411.972,"text":"一照2500億是一個上限金額在條例通過之後我們要提出預算的詳細項目這個還要經過大院的許可啊部長你先聽我講完您這樣講好像部長你先聽我講完他的上限金額就是一照2500億一旦通過除非有被刪減嘛那刪減是審查以後可是我現在要講沒有 特別預算裡面特別預算裡面除了我們在審部長請聽我講完"},{"start":5419.534,"end":5422.855,"text":"我們現在在過去的幾個特別預算裡面其實現在都是這樣一旦匡列了他的上限金額其實大概都會把它使用到完除非他有審查被刪除那現在我們現在要討論的就是你後續逐年修正檢討或喊停的制度空間就會喪失很多"},{"start":5443.144,"end":5463.818,"text":"這個不像我們一般的公務預算可以好好的去做審查所以他真正該被討論的不是他內容刪不刪而是這些項目到底需不需要用特別條例這是我們現在要特別強調的這些部分到底需不需要用到特別條例我們從過去到現在其實你們現在提到的很多其實都是在公務預算裡面編的你們現在只有一個理由就是我們急需可是當你在講急需的時候我們來看幾個例子"},{"start":5473.304,"end":5494.683,"text":"我們從過去到現在我們在這個部分我們大概不過委員講的就是這樣子那至少要復違一下吧現在就是你到底要不要放在裡面因為你項目才剛出來不是要復違而是應該要先釐清這些是不是適合放在那裡我們再來討論這個部分那適不適合放在那裡你連互違都不互違那怎麼討論"},{"start":5497.236,"end":5501.479,"text":"你應該先讓大家看到啊因為大家都看不到的時候要怎麼付委部長今天你如果說你有一個需求你說你兒子跟你說我要五千萬然後我可能要有一個人生的規劃跟需求那你也要有項目可是你的項目是現在才拿出來當之前大家在程序委員會的時候大家根本不知道你的內容"},{"start":5527.416,"end":5540.722,"text":"這是第一點第二個我們現在要討論的是現在我們在預算委員會在做什麼樣子的一個一個一個一個一個議事這個部分大家都很清楚"},{"start":5543.023,"end":5560.533,"text":"請尊重立法院因為現在他就是還沒有通過程序委員會這個部分現在目前的進度是這樣因為我們看到現在可能預算有錯置的部分比如說他明明有基金預算還有我們有分年規劃的獲得的相關預算可是我們現在要把子彈火藥還有製程設備有一些你就要把它放在我們的特別預算裡面"},{"start":5573.307,"end":5588.241,"text":"這個部分另外就是在另外一個類別類型就是說我們選了不成熟的路線可是我們也沒有停損的機制這個部分我們舉個例子來說就是我們的奉展專案"},{"start":5589.102,"end":5604.003,"text":"奉展專案從2012年本來他的規劃期程2023年就要完成可是他在這中間延了兩次現在延到2026年現在又延到2028年奉展專案就是我們F16AB的升級案"},{"start":5604.784,"end":5609.726,"text":"它高達長達14年以上現在在延長可能長達16年以上它現在目前可能還有的狀況是我們的電站夾艙我們之前說要研發可是後來無疾而終我們也編了錢錢也不知道哪裡去了那時候都說非常重要可是當它沒有的時候我們好像也就沒有了"},{"start":5626.172,"end":5634.858,"text":"那另外還有就是我們在這個有很多有延宕還有造成戰力空窗的部分因為最近因為F16這個戰機摔落的時候我們才發現我們自動防撞系統其實是還沒有建置完成"},{"start":5644.144,"end":5655.609,"text":"我們的遠距遙控武器也要到2027或2028才可以完成另外還有任務電腦現在可能還是有狀況的情況之下這些部分其實我們的預算都是有給足"},{"start":5659.571,"end":5664.395,"text":"這個部分我們只是後來才發現這些部分都還沒有建置完成所以我們要的是怎麼樣讓我們所有的武器裝備它可以即時到位而且是符合我們的戰力需求這是國防部應該要去要求的而不是只要錢因為我們過去到現在我剛剛講的奉產專案我們講的F16V還有我們的永英號如果大家有印象的話永英號現在也在延宕交貨當中"},{"start":5687.193,"end":5699.458,"text":"我們的潛艦其實他的戰力形成可能要到203幾年以後如果順利的話所以我們不斷不斷的花錢我們不斷不斷的編預算當我們要這些預算的時候都說我們要展現給我們其他的有盟的國家看然後我們要讓我們的國人有信心可是當我們預算都有給的情況之下我們看到現在的戰力是有空隙的我們的"},{"start":5714.765,"end":5733.654,"text":"這些武器膠裝是延宕的所以像這一些他要怎麼到位這個都是有很大的影響還有我們F16我們現在都跟說跟美方買大家如果有印象的話川普第一任的時候他有答應出售給我們自走炮就是A6"},{"start":5735.199,"end":5750.712,"text":"可是後來他們一句話說不賣了說產能的問題到最後叫我們我們錢也不能退啊我們還是那些預算可是我們必須買海馬斯那你現在美國現在要同意我們"},{"start":5752.236,"end":5757.617,"text":"也是自走炮有賣A7萬一他又突然變卦了我們到底有什麼樣談判的能力我們現在要講的是除了像我們剛剛講的預算應該要配置妥善以外然後還有像我們這些談判的風險我們完全沒有能力去跟美方做談判包括他沒有辦法交機我們也沒有能力去做要求"},{"start":5776.101,"end":5781.823,"text":"然後如果說像他已經答應說要賣給我們也知會國會然後也已經公告我們預算也編了他突然變卦的時候我們也沒有辦法去做什麼任何的調整所以就這幾項來看我們才會說我們希望我們要編列這麼高額的預算當我們一步到位的時候美方也要求日本也要求韓國他們的國防"},{"start":5802.648,"end":5816.359,"text":"必須要達到GDP的3或3.5以上他們都沒有答應 甚至也沒有做到可是我們現在如果依照我們今年的公共預算9450億再加上通過的1100億的任期預算超過一兆多 這個已經高達3.5日本明年的公共預算已經要達到9兆日元"},{"start":5825.407,"end":5841.789,"text":"我們不是比9兆我們說的是GDP因為他的量體不一樣日本到現在他的GDP就是2點幾%而已而不是9兆日圓部長我們用的要一樣的比例就是說比如說你的收入是多少跟一般"},{"start":5842.931,"end":5849.86,"text":"其他人的收入他的支出就會不太一樣這個部分是我們特別要提出來講的所以在這裡我們最後要強調的就是說其實我們支持可是你必須要用對地方然後必須有即時的戰力像我們說機器狗"},{"start":5860.814,"end":5872.38,"text":"大家會覺得說機器狗可能也很符合我們的作戰需求可是他不是把他展示或者引進買來他就已經具備戰力因為會讓人家有這樣的錯覺其實他最重要的困難點在於他的通聯如果我們買相關的武器裝備包括你要買無人機包括你要買無人艇這些他"},{"start":5883.965,"end":5888.308,"text":"他的通聯抗干擾還有辨識誤判在交戰規則裡面都必須要符合他一直機器狗出去他不是就知道敵人在哪裡或者他就能夠作戰所以我們希望在你買這些武器裝備尤其像無人機我們要買那麼多國防部也一直強調他有迭代的問題因為他不斷不斷的在更新像我們買的Artist 600"},{"start":5909.562,"end":5912.426,"text":"他剛開始我們的有一些武器裝備可能在俄烏戰爭他初期是不錯的可是後來其實他的抗干擾或者其他的反制的這些作為都出來以後其實他已經就會失效或者成為被獵殺的目標"},{"start":5926.963,"end":5935.549,"text":"美軍的空軍跟海軍都有去測試過他們甚至烏克蘭在2024年也不部署了可是我們現在要花很高的金額現在我們已經有買了啊可是現在又要編高額的預算在特別預算裡面要去買那這些是不是符合我們或者他是不是不夠好我們沒有辦法監督所以這個部分是我們特別在特別預算裡面這麼高的預算要用掉這麼多的錢我們應該要特別去審慎評估的"},{"start":5957.043,"end":5961.084,"text":"回到基本的這句話這些項目真的那麼重要那麼正當我們希望我們回到正當的建軍規劃裡面接受分年預算逐項審查跟持續的監督這個部分因為不要選擇性的說我們所有的我剛剛提到的我們現在所有的建案我們都是給足了錢那如果有需要我相信我們所有的國人都會予以支持這個部分部長"},{"start":5982.862,"end":6007.434,"text":"我想委員所講的說我們所有的事情都要進入來討論我剛剛已經講了如果你連互違都不肯互違我們連討論都沒有辦法進行討論那請問您剛剛講的那些在每一個項目我們需要的籌貨的必要性跟破業性上面我們根本沒有辦法進行互違討論的情況下您剛剛講的那麼一大堆的事項"},{"start":6008.94,"end":6016.891,"text":"那現在就還在程序委員會理論上來講 理論上來講特別條例沒有互違沒有按在委員會裡面"},{"start":6018.26,"end":6027.222,"text":"我們要如何進行討論您所有剛剛的指教都要先互為我們才能夠進行討論嘛我們也排了一個機密專報委員也沒有來我們在機密專報上面已經詳細的說明了我剛剛有講過了為什麼我們會參加全機密預算是因為它有一些必須公開的你不應該裝神弄鬼把它用全機密包裝如果你在當天的下午就可以有一些部分可以公開為什麼你一開始的"},{"start":6045.585,"end":6053.107,"text":"我們就可以公開的事實上都有跟委員在個別的進行溝通啊難道沒有進行溝通嗎今天是立法院我們所有應該要得到正常的資訊的時候你在事先要附委的時候就應該給所有的委員知道你到底要怎麼花 到底要怎麼用 到底要買什麼而不是在幾次都沒有通過以後你才慢慢慢慢的說你要做什麼現在部長本來就要先附委嘛"},{"start":6076.072,"end":6104.697,"text":"沒有 是應該要讓大家知道你要做什麼比如說 那個不是在委員會比如說你要買F16的時候很清楚的知道美方他提要求的就是2500億左右所以你在特別預算的條例或者他的預算其實都可以去編這樣的預算那個大家都沒有意見所以就這個部分部長您要不要說一下哪一個你覺得非常需需的"},{"start":6106.031,"end":6112.093,"text":"我想我們在機密的專報裡面都已經有做過充分的說明除了機密以外公開的沒有必要嗎請委員能夠支持啦沒有 這不是知不知恥部長你不是說在機密預算裡面我現在給你時間說比如你認為哪一個非常迫切需要然後一定要放在特別預算然後一定要通過你可以舉一個就好了你舉一個"},{"start":6130.629,"end":6133.671,"text":"我們所有的七類的裝備對我們強化不對稱作戰及強化紅衛韌性都是至關重要我們知道它至關重要可是你有些你過去買F16也很重要啊你買F16也很重要啊你的貨轉有益靠野"},{"start":6147.66,"end":6151.065,"text":"你快速投入你到現在連一架飛機都還沒有拿到你要怎麼快速投入今天你要告訴我們怎麼樣去改善這些你都沒有辦法付的錢還沒到位的部分所以委員的意思就是說我們F16沒辦法交機我們所有其他的裝備都不需要投購了你不是只有F16沒有交機"},{"start":6163.16,"end":6164.981,"text":"你還有其他的部分也都沒有包括我們的彈藥我們的新廠才剛建好你花了三四百億以上才剛建好的產線居然沒有辦法自製我們自用的這些彈藥的裝備過去都可以 現在不行你也要讓大家知道為什麼不可以"},{"start":6183.673,"end":6189.718,"text":"結果你們在現在特別預算裡面也要放入這些產線這是沒有辦法交代的所以我剛剛有請部長你提一個嘛你不要說每一個都很重要那跟大家的認知會不一樣啊你今天身為部長你講一個說我們必須用特別預算我們用其他的預算就沒有辦法做然後我們一定要趕快隨便舉一個可以嗎"},{"start":6208.277,"end":6233.676,"text":"您如果想到相關的產線相關的產線我們會要增加它的量能不是啦 用在特別預算裡面的啦然後另外呢我們對於國內產能不足或者是沒有自主產能的這個部分呢我們也要透過這些特別預算來進行這個產線的強化增建或者是再請其他的相關的途徑來籌得才能夠迅速的建置我們所需要的戰備存量跟訓練需求這是非常具有急迫性的"},{"start":6234.022,"end":6236.424,"text":"部長所以你沒有聽清楚我們剛剛講的我們才剛建新廠你今天如果說用這些沒有辦法去形成我們沒有不想聽我們很清楚的聽我只是希望部長可以提出一個很具體的必須要在"},{"start":6250.818,"end":6271.714,"text":"特別預算裡面編列的那我們當然非常予以尊重啊就這個部分我想這個部分大家還是有討論的空間那就這個部分如果說還沒有辦法有具體的答案我們也不知道應該要怎麼樣來做這樣的支持因為我們看到很多東西就是延宕就是影響戰力就是影響我們所有的安全包括飛行員包括我們所有其他的國軍這個部分我們希望國防部要首先重視的是這個部分謝謝"},{"start":6280.868,"end":6298.59,"text":"好謝謝馬委員部長喝口水我們請下一位沈伯陽委員質詢"},{"start":6309.978,"end":6311.242,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":6321.951,"end":6342.964,"text":"部長好 這個我是認為這個現在我們研會已經延到這個時候了說真的我覺得這個國防外交委員會現在跟不存在根本就一模一樣程序委員會現在是實質的就是把這一個國防的條例擋在程序委員會程序委員會把自己當作國防外交委員會"},{"start":6344.525,"end":6372.58,"text":"剛剛前面的委員一直提到說哪一個項目他認為不適合放在這一個條例如果認為哪一個項目不適合放在這個條例那就放到委員會審查不就好了嘛你在委員會你可以刪除啊你可以說我在條例上面我這個項目不要啊一到七項我認為六七不要啊我認為金額應該調整啊這個都應該要在外交國防委員會來處理但現在這個案子就是進不了國防外交委員會"},{"start":6373.781,"end":6390.459,"text":"所以我覺得我們都在浪費時間就是如果這個是應該全民討論的我們機密會議也開了我們也知道為什麼他要編列在機密了民意代表本來就是應該代表人民在這邊做審查結果我們現在呢要做審查預算也全部都看完了我們根本就沒有辦法坐在這邊做審查那請問開這個會到底要做什麼"},{"start":6393.715,"end":6418.553,"text":"所以我真的覺得我真的是快受不了了現在我知道我覺得這一點是非常糟糕藍白在那邊提說要自己提這個軍購的版本我沒有聽說過立法委員自己軍購的立法委員自己軍購請問他要怎麼知道軍種的需求要怎麼知道現在跟世界各國談的狀況到底到如何請問這個特別條例要怎麼寫現在如果立法委員自己做軍購要把這個特別條例提出來那我們要怎麼辦"},{"start":6419.554,"end":6433.064,"text":"所以剛剛我覺得部長回答得很好因為剛剛我看委員就一直在問說到底哪一個最重要我告訴大家如果今天假設我們家今天被一個竊盜集團盯上了所以我們決定要在前門後門跟窗戶都要裝鎖"},{"start":6434.72,"end":6454.257,"text":"現在他們就是問你說你前門後門裝戶你到底哪一個最重要請你告訴我每一個都很重要我要防竊賊我每一個點我都應該要裝鎖才對我怎麼可能前門裝鎖我後門不裝鎖現在他們就是希望什麼希望回答出來一個反正哪一個最重要他們就自己提一個軍購條例然後就只有那一個項目我們就漏入陷阱"},{"start":6455.273,"end":6479.35,"text":"所以這邊國防部一定要撐住今天8年1.25兆這個項目對我們的國家安全就是至關重要我們就應該要堅守這樣的一個立場我們不能夠讓他們提出閹割版的現在如果連機密會議都沒有來或者說連這個事項到底跟別的國家到底討論到什麼程度哪一些智慧國會哪一些沒有都搞不清楚的狀況之下那根本就等於是要提出一個淘寶版的嘛"},{"start":6479.89,"end":6494.785,"text":"就是一個拼多多版的一個軍購條例然後要自己把它拿到委員會討論我覺得這是我們不能夠接受的事情那接下來我必須要講就是我們現在看到越來越多的委員來這邊問的時候都是在針對個案我覺得很糟糕這個"},{"start":6497.577,"end":6515.415,"text":"就昨天而已吧昨天我們可以看到這一個有一個Alex這個運動員爬我們這個101這個賈永傑這個董事長其實真的在這個規劃上面做得很好但我就往前看新聞我就看到什麼我就看到當時要任命他的時候藍白就在那邊講講說什麼這個是什麼 酬庸啦"},{"start":6517.978,"end":6543.457,"text":"我想说你今天任用一个人才到哪一个位置上面我现在发现一件事情就是反正只要他们认为不是他们的他们全部都买叫做酬佣这个就发生在跟国防一样我看前阵子这个CK杨在这一个国民党的这个会议里面参叙里面讲说什么就开始讲说我们这边就一定是为了哪一个军火商为了什么东西去诋毁我们现在的军购"},{"start":6544.478,"end":6571.196,"text":"我必須要講就是我們現在很常遇到這種事情比如說今天這個廠商他今天得標了其他的廠商沒有得標全部都說這個叫弊案然後每一個都用影射的立場到質詢台上面然後透過立法委員然後去影射說你看這個本來是做什麼的為什麼他現在可以做這一個然後每一個都買叫弊案那我們從歷史上來看我們可以看到非常多台灣的廠商他原本是做別的比如說千富他本來製鞋的"},{"start":6571.716,"end":6597.696,"text":"後來來做這一個跟愛國者飛彈相關的就是明明都有這些我們台灣好不容易可以第一個國防自主然後讓我們的經濟發展讓工作機會變多本來這樣的好事都被他們當作喪事在辦如果這個狀況一直這樣下去我們在這邊開會就變成是一個造謠的場所根本就不是在針對我們的國防預算做把關都在影射都在講根本就不存在的事情"},{"start":6598.596,"end":6603.062,"text":"真正應該要細項我們要討論我們都做不到那這半年到底要做什麼"},{"start":6604.403,"end":6628.744,"text":"所以我今天我還想問一個問題因為我們今天一直聚焦在8年1.25兆但我現在對於總預算還沒有審查我也覺得非常的擔心因為總預算它也會編到以往我們本來有的這個類似特別條例然後每年要編預算那像我們看我看這個HF的通信機這個通信機有攜帶式的也有要安裝在這個艦艇上的那它也是每年要編預算"},{"start":6629.685,"end":6649.118,"text":"那我就在想假設前年執行了去年也執行了然後因為總預算現在卡關了那明明是一個延續性的計畫它就會卡在那邊那假設今天有廠商它已經開標了但是呢最後就沒有辦法決標因為就卡住在那邊嘛"},{"start":6649.938,"end":6659.012,"text":"那這個時候呢如果好不容易我們拖了很長一段時間總預算通過了這個對已經開標的業者來講這可能會有司法徵送的問題"},{"start":6660.236,"end":6680.01,"text":"那一旦進入到司法徵送我們就要付出更多的預算來處理一個根本不應該處理的事情所以我現在擔心的事情就是不但是對我們國內的廠商還有針對我們國際現在在跟其他的政府在談這些事項的時候只要不只是特別條例的問題連總預算的延宕都可能會造成"},{"start":6685.194,"end":6713.958,"text":"我們今天跟別人談的案子會延宕這個一延宕效序有可能幾個結果一個結果是別人乾脆不想來不想理你了另外一個就是要進入到法律徵送的程序因為拖到時間那一旦進入到這個程序我們要多付出更多的成本所以原本應該花的錢我們都沒有花然後也沒有去討論然後最後還要去花一個根本我們不應該付出的一個預算所以現在針對這一點就是第二點這一邊就是這種多年期的計畫請問國防部現在的應對方案是什麼"},{"start":6715.475,"end":6719.484,"text":"您說放在年度預算的多年期的計畫現在就是有一個"},{"start":6721.57,"end":6745.384,"text":"如果總預算一直是不能夠審查他最主要不是在說只有新增的一個計劃項目他就是說只要是114叫114年度增加的部分都不能夠用那這個以講海馬士多管火箭系統來講的話我們的金額應該就是會比"},{"start":6747.318,"end":6772.408,"text":"原來編41億那現在115年編75億那超過41億的部分的34億就變沒有辦法那他還蠻好事他現在要交付那我們沒有辦法有這個如果總預算一直沒有辦法審議那我們這個多出來的34億就會變成沒有辦法執行要補充請說包委員因為這幾個案子我們有幾個案子是"},{"start":6776.469,"end":6796.897,"text":"在之前疫情的時候有跟各位報過他有受到延宕的影響但是從去年開始一直到今年這是一個非常重要的轉折點尤其是今年今年我們最後的28輛M1A2T戰車已經做完了已經放在兵工廠裡面等著我們付最後一筆錢"},{"start":6798.297,"end":6813.824,"text":"海馬市它是提前的提前這個就會有產線的問題如果我們今年延後到下半年度才有辦法付這個款的話那我們海馬市後面的產線它的排成就會受到衝擊其他的部分"},{"start":6814.944,"end":6838.8,"text":"如果說委員有興趣的話我們可以像你這樣細講這邊就不足以的去列舉這些細節對 因為我覺得這個是重要的因為這個會影響到就是他們一直在講延宕延宕但反而我們現在在做的事情就是在製造延宕這個對我們的國防一定是重大的影響而且如果說我們延宕的時間太長如果今天超過半年甚至超過一年我們這些總預算都沒有辦法審查的話"},{"start":6839.54,"end":6851.754,"text":"到最後我說真的已經沒有廠商要來跟台灣做生意了根本就連不要講國防自主我們連購買都已經有問題了更何況是國防自主那這一件事情如果今天我們軍購來得及我們國防的產業發展來得及"},{"start":6855.317,"end":6882.087,"text":"這個製造的國內的就業機會是站在那邊等著我們所以這個延宕已經不只是說對我們的國防的影響它會對我們整個經濟的產業現在很多人要找工作的時候結果他以為有這樣的工作結果卻沒有為什麼就因為什麼東西都擋在程序委員會所以我覺得這件事情我真的已經快受不了了就是說沒有任何的理由剛剛講的所有的理由剛剛不管哪一個委員他們對哪一件事情質疑"},{"start":6882.907,"end":6906.087,"text":"不就是應該坐在這邊質疑嗎就是坐在這邊討論不就了結了嗎為什麼程序委員會是連討論都不能夠討論程序委員會是單純舉手程序委員會我要來跟國人說明程序委員會今天要審的是什麼比如說我今天提了一個案子我這個案子比如說我今天連署有沒有15個人我如果要修法我的修法理由有沒有寫這個叫做刑事審查"},{"start":6907.368,"end":6928.646,"text":"這個刑事審查沒問題了程序委員會就要排案了然後院會一讀之後就應該要進入到委員會程序委員會沒有幾個國防外交的委員啊那憑什麼程序委員會要來決定今天這個條例要怎麼寫這個不就是在實質的去阻擋了行政院的提案權以及我們一般立法委員的提案權"},{"start":6929.807,"end":6958.14,"text":"接下來今天或明天應該就會發生他們就要自己提相關的這個軍購的條例我覺得立法委員自己去軍購我就是前所未聞啦如果今天立法委員自己做軍購自己提了條例然後要讓我們的國防開空窗我覺得我們應該立場非常的嚴正這不是我們要的軍購我們要的軍購是完整的軍購不是拼多多的軍購不是淘寶式的軍購好 那我是遵守時間的人所以我先講到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":6959.301,"end":6965.904,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上台諮詢主席麻煩部長請顧部長"},{"start":6991.741,"end":7002.107,"text":"另外我們國軍負責對中國解放軍好情報研析各方面的應該是我們秦次士吧謝總將請請秦次士"},{"start":7008.527,"end":7031.66,"text":"好 兩位好我第一個想請教目前中國解放軍發生了外媒甚至於某些中國自己的智庫都形容叫做史達林式的PurgePurge就是大清洗這個在史達林時代曾經發生過那在目前看起來已知的訊息從2022年中國二十大"},{"start":7034.69,"end":7063.032,"text":"以後已經有30個上將他們有40個現役上將組成的一個決策體系但從2022年中共二十大以後有18名下台12個到現在行蹤不明所以有30位那還沒有算到中將少將的人數聽說那個下台或失蹤人數加起來可以組一個連然後另外呢在最近這一個張又俠跟劉振利"},{"start":7064.181,"end":7073.844,"text":"其實張又俠的角色有點像解放軍的國防部長他們體制跟我們不太一樣軍委會主席是習近平但是真正負責軍政的是張又俠軍令系統的他們的聯參長也就是參謀總長劉正麗兩個也下來"},{"start":7080.026,"end":7095.131,"text":"所以這個狀況我第一個先請教我們部裡面或者我們情事室這裡事情有沒有這樣的狀況那目前你們對解放軍發生這樣的事情你們有什麼樣的判斷"},{"start":7097.813,"end":7123.1,"text":"委員好跟委員報告我們一直都非常關注有關於中共特別是解放軍高層的人事異動那這個是我們持續在做掌握的但是我們也同時間要跟委員報告我們長時間的觀察解放軍對特別是中共對我們的軍事威脅並沒有因為這些高級官員的高級將領的異動而有所鬆懈所以我們也不應該趁這個機會跟委員報告說我們也不會"},{"start":7127.341,"end":7142.972,"text":"因為這些情況這不僅不應該鬆懈風險有沒有增加的確存在有一定的風險在這是要跟委員特別做報告我今天為什麼第一題先談這個其實我們所有的軍購我相信我們在這個會議室裡面不管"},{"start":7145.125,"end":7172.426,"text":"是政黨的立法委員或者是國家的國軍我們大家都理解一個國家為什麼需要國防我們要保護自己的國家有外敵嘛台灣的國防為什麼困難因為我們在國際的現實上不是買方市場我們不是可以去德國萊茵金屬問一問拿來跟美國的哪個公司比一比這個我喜歡 然後來殺價不是台灣要取得軍事裝備何其困難"},{"start":7174.451,"end":7199.174,"text":"什麼時候我們現在對外採購第一流的現代化裝備困難已經降到很低了反而是在我們國內自己不給你買當然嘴巴不會這樣講啦用了很多程序上很多的藉口把連討論的機會都不給你不管是年度的預算或者是特別預算的條例那回到我們的威脅也就是中國是我們台灣唯一的武力威脅"},{"start":7200.714,"end":7227.759,"text":"我們現在看起來我看到一個形容詞尤其華爾街日報今天揭露說張又俠他們這幾個下來有涉及泄密不管他講的是真的假的他涉及核泄密相關被拉下來那這會產生什麼情形呢第一個我們不質疑習近平對解放軍的控制力他等於達到史無前例的強大控制力整個解放軍他一個人控制"},{"start":7228.379,"end":7242.812,"text":"因為40個上將組成的決策體系現在只剩下他自己跟他剛剛拉上來的張聲明兩個那這很危險喔也就是在解放軍的決策體系裡面沒有人敢說NO了因為說NO的人都不見了"},{"start":7244.059,"end":7269.015,"text":"全部變Yes Man變馬屁派不管什麼派現在變馬屁派上面講什麼都要照做所以謹慎理性分析的基礎不在了而只剩下習近平的意志第二個風險是什麼美方判斷本來想要跟共軍建立相關的所謂的軍事談話的機制現在誰敢啊你跟美國日本軍事對話建立什麼這個熱線電話"},{"start":7272.637,"end":7292.905,"text":"有可能就拿來當成為所謂的成為外國間諜的藉口兩天就不見全家都不見還不自己不見所以這一個緩衝機制目前要建立極其困難那他們另外一部分呢因為指揮鏈坦白講參謀總長啦或者是軍政體系這幾十個上將指揮鏈確實有暫時斷鏈然後下面的人"},{"start":7296.607,"end":7318.617,"text":"要面對說你到底是張又俠派的還是哪一派的 擔心被清洗所以解放軍大概會有一段時間不敢妄動我講的不是對台灣 是對他們自己內部不敢做動作 怕引起猜忌甚至於可能我現在對這個長官效忠明天他被抓了 下台了 我可能連株 株連一起倒楣這是另外一個氛圍"},{"start":7319.457,"end":7336.501,"text":"所以不敢建立緩衝機制內部決策單一化習近平一個人說了算大概是現在狀況所以我看到一個形容詞中國解放軍現在是一個大腦神經受損但是肌肉仍然強大的巨人而這個巨人可能因為錯誤的判斷隨時揮舞棒子"},{"start":7339.582,"end":7366.722,"text":"那周邊國家不是只有我們周邊國家可能都要小心也就是過去也許擦槍走火的機會比較低現在因為是一個肌肉強大的巨人但指揮鏈呢剩下效忠 剩下馬屁派所以有可能擦槍走火的機會會升高所以我請教部長面對這個局勢部裡面對於新狀況的應處有沒有什麼樣的研析或者新的一個做法"},{"start":7367.81,"end":7388.705,"text":"我想第一點還是要重申 中共是不放棄武力犯台那習近平對這個的意志也始終似乎沒有顯示他有動搖所以對於中共可能武力犯台這件事情 國軍不敢絲毫鬆懈 這是第一點"},{"start":7389.807,"end":7408.07,"text":"第二點對中共的高層的這些這種大規模的一個清洗的作為所影響的他們在這個指揮鏈的體系上面之後如何持續就是說如何來這樣運作因為過去就是委員所講的"},{"start":7409.071,"end":7435.605,"text":"其實都是以軍委負責嘛軍委 軍委會會負責 他們是以黨領軍 對那這一次裡面他有特別提到說踐踏這個軍委的這個責任制 軍委主席的責任制這句話我們也要持續的密註來觀察這句話看起來是軍委會副主席侵犯了主席的權利那簡單來講就是指控張又俠對習近平叛變嘛"},{"start":7436.482,"end":7450.259,"text":"那我們要持續的關注以中央軍委來負責整個整個中國這個有關這個軍事所有相關的這個決策跟指揮的這個部分的影響"},{"start":7451.755,"end":7475.845,"text":"第二個要持續來關注第三個當然就是說對我們的威脅我們的要關注的是它的預警增後這樣的預警增後不只是只有軍事面所有非軍事面我們都要持續那這個不只是我們根據我們自己的這個相關的系統那也要跟友盟情誌來加以進行交換我們會來持續的祕訣我是建議給部裡面做參考第一個"},{"start":7480.851,"end":7495.728,"text":"當然這是一個危險但也是一個機會也就是它這一個指揮鏈的清洗過程會讓它的目前整個指揮體系會有一個兩到三年的盤整期這個是一個非常珍貴的資源就是我們最需要的時間"},{"start":7497.61,"end":7510.869,"text":"投資和平 投資國防的珍貴時間所以這個時間很稀有 要珍惜第二個 情報跟心理層面我不知道我們部裡面現在反情報作戰 反認知作戰"},{"start":7512.131,"end":7532.892,"text":"中共內部我們對那邊相關的心理作戰這個要提升情報的收集跟有盟的情報的交換第三個是我們該做的行政跟立法我覺得應該合作要在這個時候穩定的不管是國防預算或者是國安相關的法律應該在這個機會穩健的把它執行出來有什麼意見溝通"},{"start":7535.015,"end":7555.314,"text":"認為該修該三該怎麼處理該怎麼處理但是絕對不是停滯不前因為時間很稀有最後一個是第一島鏈的協同尤其川普新公佈的美國戰略其實是希望尤其在印太地區第一島鏈的國家要承擔自己該做partner的parts你的自己的部分所以跟"},{"start":7556.61,"end":7576.585,"text":"日本、澳洲甚至於南方的菲律賓怎麼樣協同從情報交換從區域的單一戰區甚至於更進一步的單一執管這個部分我覺得應該是一個重點而對於異常現象特別是以往還有這些剎車皮現在剎車皮不在了對於這種可能擦槍走火的樣態的映出"},{"start":7578.266,"end":7598.909,"text":"可能我建議部裡面跟參謀本部要去思考一些因應方式可能要跟著這個中國的政經局勢變化來做判斷這是我給部裡面跟參謀本部的建議那我最後請教兩個問題我們現在國防預算坦白講已經五個多月了年度預算國防預算也沒辦法審查"},{"start":7600.407,"end":7624.854,"text":"部長這個組黨連副委都沒有辦法對於我們台灣安全的傷害你們簡單說一下或者舉幾個明確的例子比方說我所謂的傷害是戰力提升延遲戰力維持不足甚至於戰力維持不足可能有一些新增預算不足的時候他沒辦法支應我們新型態的需求油料彈藥然後還有不可逆的傷害這個最重要會被這個時間錯過了"},{"start":7626.775,"end":7633.567,"text":"我們原來要籌措的 原來要做的錯過以後就很難第一個就年度預算的部分部長這邊有沒有什麼說明"},{"start":7634.987,"end":7660.52,"text":"我想我們之前已經有說過了最主要就是說他除了新增計畫之外他還有一個就是說今年的金額要是比去年多的這個部分也都不行來致用那所以我想我們海馬市標槍次增還有戰術數據鏈路及連戰指管系統維護還有這些保護戰鬥人員的這些各裝等等還有包括F16的後續的訓練"},{"start":7662.341,"end":7685.673,"text":"然後還有這些官兵的這些基層部隊的運作跟提升官兵的照顧只要比去年多的這個金額的項目都不能夠來執行所以對於這個我們提升一個我們的嚇阻戰力還有我們的不對稱戰力還有保護戰鬥人員跟照顧官兵都會有相當大的影響那油料跟彈藥呢 有沒有影響油料跟彈藥的"},{"start":7689.105,"end":7716.404,"text":"油料影響是多少 這個足跡局啊對 因為有 這屬於新增預算的部分嘛是 油料115年比114年度增加4億元的部分我們也會被管制所以那個就沒辦法控制啊是的 沒辦法控制所以變成我們的官兵弟兄姊妹他的油料 他相關的需求該練那些受影響那年度預算的話 我們現在一併問啦包含我們特別預算 特別條例當然後面還有編列預算詳細的細節啦 各項目啦"},{"start":7719.502,"end":7741.588,"text":"有沒有那個錯過了可能未來就很難而對國家的安全戰力影響非常大的當然屬於機密系項目的你不用明說啦但是有沒有不可逆的傷害剛剛剛剛有提到那個這請范國威先生來講那委員軍購案那個部分我剛剛已經做過說明了就是因為我們幾個已經撕毀國會了發達書即將到達它是有期限的"},{"start":7742.372,"end":7766.458,"text":"那第二個部分衝擊最大的就是川普之前公布 最近公布在那八項裡面嘛前面已經是五項軍購案他的發價書應該在近期之內就會拿到他的效期是45天那過期會怎麼樣過期就要看跟美方談判之後他們願不願意再延長所以他不延長就沒了如果美方基於他的後續生產或是其他國家的訂單不願意延長那個項目可能就得重新再來"},{"start":7767.595,"end":7783.321,"text":"這是第一個第二個我們其中二十餘萬架的小型無人機的部分是希望能夠帶動國內的廠商進行初步的投資所以軍備局前面已經做了兩年期四萬五千多架的一個招商說明"},{"start":7784.261,"end":7806.944,"text":"那如果說我們現在在這個時候把這個案子往後delay的話恐怕廠商他就會觀望因為畢竟他得做大量的投資才有辦法建一個幾萬架無人機的產線那如果說他不投資的話後續就算我們預算過了那一樣會耽誤到那個時間這個是影響到我們的戰備重生嘛我們的軍需戰備需求"},{"start":7808.171,"end":7826.94,"text":"另外一個項目軍需彈背的需求就是我們希望籌購的急缺彈藥的項目以及軍備產線的擴張的這個部分一個是我們現在沒有產線要買一個是建立我們以後自給自足的產線第一個是做不夠的第二個是做不出來的所以這個也會因為這些預算延宕錯過了可能就很難了"},{"start":7830.967,"end":7858.777,"text":"好 所以我們今天看中國對台灣威脅的狀況現在新的狀況那我們希望國軍大家辛苦了那相關的預算 條例我還是那句話國防安全其實沒有黨派的分別我們都住在這裡2300萬人都面對一樣的生活 一樣的情況是不是能復偽 儘快復偽有什麼意見占多數的總是可以表決可以刪除 可以檢列但是一直擋在程序委員會外面"},{"start":7860.578,"end":7870.381,"text":"其實最後受害是我們整體國人跟國家好謝謝謝謝接下來請賴世保委員上台質詢不好意思我們也先宣告等一下徐巧欣委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":7894.423,"end":7916.886,"text":"是 賴委員我請教部長你剛才你對我已經否認了就是說台美要成立聯合火力協調中心外面感覺就是美軍要來兼軍你說絕對不是兼軍可是你們還內部高掛一個電子鐘倒數2027年的1月1日就是說"},{"start":7918.027,"end":7920.368,"text":"老公要打台灣就掛在那裡而且美方的智庫宣稱中共有人力來打台灣在那個時候可是紅帝還說另外的智庫說不會打台灣2027我們現在看起來的感覺就是都在政府說的現在為了一定澳洲就說很緊張的2027要打所以你看我要成立聯合火力協調中心然後另外一方面"},{"start":7944.5,"end":7948.501,"text":"賴清德總統會講說 我選舉的時候說只有我當選 兩岸最和平 不會戰爭就是都知道你說的就對了你要不要對這個事情來講一下你這個是不是準備打仗了2027年1月1日倒數你這個聯合協調中心即便美軍不是建軍好了但是是不是你掛在那裡就準備這一天要打仗了 是不是"},{"start":7971.716,"end":7991.994,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們要以2027作為我們有一個高戰備的能力這是我們國軍的一個目標那這個跟來研判說中共是不是一定會在2027年對我們採取前面入侵的這些軍事行動我想不必然有等號的關係但是無論如何我們都要"},{"start":7994.084,"end":8010.152,"text":"就是說我們透過不斷的這個實戰化的訓練所以等於戰備準備說我準備你那天來打你不打最好是這個意思我們一定要形成嚇阻我們一定要形成嚇阻嘛2027那就明年1月1日喔剩不到一年喔"},{"start":8010.732,"end":8014.655,"text":"時間蠻緊湊的我想2027年是一個點但是不會是2027年之後我們就不需要去籌購新式的武器也不需要去維持這個高戰備能力我們2027年我們有一個這樣子的一個要形成高戰備的能力但這樣的高戰備能力我們從這個點來看呢事實上還有待進一步提升的地方我們會持續來進進"},{"start":8039.192,"end":8042.976,"text":"你剛剛一直提到高戰力我們的防衛任性我們的後備戰力等等都要持續的講話你剛才提到的高戰力高戰備能力一樣的意思高戰備能力高戰備能力有沒有包括類似以色列的那種所謂的鐵穹系統有沒有"},{"start":8060.761,"end":8089.64,"text":"我想我們已經在對外在說明就是說台灣之盾就是鐵球沒有我想每一個的系統不能夠做完全等號的類比但是我們要發展一個我們的台灣之盾來形成一個多層次的一個防禦在防空的部分這個是我們努力的方向防空很重要空戰很重要請問那個已經講很久了"},{"start":8091.261,"end":8113.288,"text":"F16V到底今年可不可以交捐F16V我想這個是不是請空軍來回答今年能不能交捐目前是正在進行非策的階段這要看整個非策的結果如果順利呢順利的話今年當然可以交捐今年什麼時候第一季 第二季 第三季 第四季還是要看它整個測試的進度"},{"start":8114.775,"end":8140.501,"text":"我看去年的報導是說今年的第三劑最有可能我們叫Most likely最有可能今年第三劑如果說進度都正常的話那我們希望在今年第三劑能夠交幾架這個都還沒辦法確定不是交66吧66架這個基本上是不太可能不太可能40架咧這個我沒辦法去做一個預測交一半種可以吧"},{"start":8142.318,"end":8151.824,"text":"托這麼久了所以說他出來的時間跟他後續的產能這個是有直接相關所以目前所以你一估只加一價"},{"start":8153.565,"end":8177.075,"text":"我想這樣的委員就是說我們現在在進行各項的一個測試他第一架測試如果完成以後以之後的測試應該就會比較簡單那在線的組裝也有幾十架我上次已經報告有56架所以我們預期今年如果測試順利的話我們會有相應的數量來獲得交付那我們現在沒有辦法跟委員確定到底有多"},{"start":8177.515,"end":8187.161,"text":"你剛才講我就幫你解讀我聽你講你剛講的意思就是只要那第一架測試成功大概就有56架第三季膠是不是這樣子我沒有辦法說最樂觀最樂觀就會有56架的一個膠壺我只能夠說我都做球給你了你不敢接最樂觀啦也不要你"},{"start":8196.266,"end":8198.327,"text":"我們希望推估就是說如果完成首次的飛行那麼繼續按計畫來執行飛車的作業之後呢順利的這個進行的話呢會在這個115年會有這個飛機飛盤那因為大家在飛機飛盤之前他還會有相關的一些在美的訓練的項目所以還是要拖一陣子了可能要到明年去了"},{"start":8222.583,"end":8234.477,"text":"那個你的 再一次大家討論的1.25兆特別預算現在確定的是美國要均售我們3500億我們在國內買3000億我這種講法對吧"},{"start":8241.345,"end":8269.596,"text":"那個數字可能有點問題那個3500是含了三個我們公務預算的案子也就是保修那個案子軍購五項裡面大概是2900億左右我們算零頭啦 3000億 美國3000億是不是跟委員報告 因為我們在上個禮拜已經做了機密專報全部的內容都在那個機密專報裡面沒有 我現在從不機密的角度嘛我們今天公開的大家想知道啊 對不對因為我為什麼提這個東西"},{"start":8271.177,"end":8285.595,"text":"那我就問你一個很籠統的你一定這個打都不會有心理壓力的1.25兆是不是都是武器的採購是不是不是1.25兆裡面它區分成"},{"start":8287,"end":8304.306,"text":"那個七類然後七類裡面其中第六項的部分是提升整體軍備量能的部分它就有包含採購武器彈藥跟籌建我們的軍備產能以及提升我們的主角能力有沒有包括"},{"start":8305.748,"end":8334.847,"text":"operating under maintenance的錢有沒有維修費用有沒有發問委員作業維持費的這個部分有沒有有沒有我們有在軍購以及商購的案子裡面我們都會納到初級備份料件跟接裝等相關的支出那後續等到案子執行之後我們會納入年度公務預算裡面來編列作業費跟訓練費不要忘了大家都知道我們以最喜歡講life cycle"},{"start":8336.368,"end":8357.833,"text":"叫做壽期 壽命的壽期間Life Cycle Cost那麼事實上除了武器採購還要後續的維修費用作業維護費用都要加進來那個大概是我查了一下大概是一到兩倍這個錢你們沒有算進來包委員這個應該"},{"start":8361.155,"end":8387.301,"text":"比一到兩倍這種數字要複雜得多我們舉例來說彈藥類的東西它只有在後續的時候不不不我講那大武器啦比如說F16V啦或者比如說這個海馬仕啦之類的啦大武器的部分您舉到海馬仕的部分海馬仕的部分如果是以我們目前我們的規劃十年期做一次性能提升二十年期做一次延壽的話如果是按照這個規劃基本上是處於1.25到1.33左右"},{"start":8389.321,"end":8415.631,"text":"好但是如果是像戰機這種項目他就會稍微高一點所以每個項目他都不同那這個錢也變在哪裡對這個我們在這個錢要變到哪裡我問你啊特別預算還是年度預算就是問題是個年度預算年度預算跟委員報告他剛剛站規師已經說明了軍事投資的這個部分都會有新增的就新增武器的裝備會有一個初次備份料增跟接裝訓練那在這個"},{"start":8418.412,"end":8428.334,"text":"武器裝備部署之後 維保跟訓練所需就會放在這個作業維持會裡面兩個會做一個無縫的接軌這樣也就是說假如我們買的跟美國買3000億跟台灣自己買3000億如果加起來6000億事實上不止啦你們講的不止啦可能其他的6000億可能是商售什麼之類的"},{"start":8442.677,"end":8446.82,"text":"我們就用以保守六千億可能你們還是要編六千億的預算這個作為維護費用啊如果十年一年就六百億啊就加進來啦我這樣講對不對幫委員您看到我們剛剛智慧國會的裡面我們有很多是彈藥的像托式 標槍那個金額很少啦那個金額很少啦你不要講他老是講彈藥我跟你講是大武器的啊新式武器有它的作業維持會的需求那我們就"},{"start":8471.798,"end":8485.57,"text":"新式武器進來之後那些不合時宜的這個舊的武器會把它汰除因此也會減少這部分的作業維持費這個就是以新換舊的情況之下作業維持費會做一個適當的調整我就是要強調1.25兆不是1.25兆ONLY要乘以2其他的1.25兆是放在年度預算不管你分攤10年或者20年基本上是各年都要分攤的我要強調這一點"},{"start":8499.608,"end":8511.373,"text":"像我們海馬仕的話就會提到一些舊式的這些砲的裝備那這些裝備的作業維持會因此就可以減少1.3倍 1.5倍 有的到2倍啦 都有謝謝 接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":8527.095,"end":8530.08,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請顧立雄 顧部長請顧部長徐委員好"},{"start":8538.132,"end":8560.195,"text":"部長好 我們今天看到這個報告裡面也有提到就是在公開資訊的部分那接下來除了美方有發這個發價書的這個無人機之外呢那我們自己還有包含是20多萬台嘛那所以說接下來這個在整個無人機來說的話那確實是我們在整體建軍思維當中不對稱作戰裡面非常重要的一部分"},{"start":8560.855,"end":8585.118,"text":"所以我們也非常關心就是說我們有未來籌措了無人機那當然也要有足夠的資源然後呢這個有人員的培訓有人來操作這個無人機因為無人機它當然是一個比較屬於不對稱作戰的一個方向那麼呢但是它還是需要有國軍來做專業的操作它才能將它的這個效益極大化"},{"start":8585.718,"end":8612.27,"text":"但是我們要問一下這個無人機大隊我們到底相關配套準備好了沒我們先來看一下整個戰鬥部隊的加級歷程是什麼樣的在第114年的4月的時候先是提出了待遇提升相關的這個案子那裡面就針對戰鬥部隊加級第一級5000提高到12000這個部分我們是同意的"},{"start":8612.99,"end":8639.947,"text":"那麼在114年8月的時候宣布要無人機部隊成為戰鬥部隊然後把無人機的戰鬥家級送到仁總去做核備而114年的9月無人機的部隊就成立了那過程當中還有遇到這個有關於追加預算的部分關於戰鬥家級的追加預算立法院也都在這59億當中給予通過了"},{"start":8642.208,"end":8663.494,"text":"那但是到現在115年2月目前很多的官兵都在投訴無人機的戰鬥加急是沒有發下來的先前有不同黨派的立法委員質詢過部長您有回答是因為人事行政總署沒有核定該項加急會再催促但是"},{"start":8663.954,"end":8675.802,"text":"我想問現在已經是年底了那麼呢也是我們這個會期裡面最後一次的這個跟國防部的質詢那跟人種催促到現在的進度"},{"start":8676.966,"end":8694.151,"text":"有答案了嗎時間表是什麼跟委員報告就是說我們在去年8月26號懲罰行政院那人總就針對我們這個新政的無人機部隊因為我們這個組織變裝調整之後呢那麼無人機的這個部隊的這個"},{"start":8696.756,"end":8722.479,"text":"這個等於是說他的勤務的內容應該是這樣講就勤務的內容他需要我們做一個說明那我問一下那你們原本預計人力配置到位的時間點是什麼時候啊就是說你看喔你9月1號成立無人機部隊嘛你就是有個成立嘛那你們怎麼你們是怎麼預計這個人力配置到位的時間點還有到目前為止我們所謂無人機戰鬥部隊裡面有多少人啊"},{"start":8723.988,"end":8741.086,"text":"我想應該跟委員能夠講就是說我們大概有31個單位那我們如果核定之後我們會追補你不要講追補欠錢沒有在欠過年的很快要過年了好不好現在9月1號到現在過了多久了5個月了嘛對不對"},{"start":8741.727,"end":8757.547,"text":"理論上來說你無人機戰鬥部隊成立之後你就應該要有加給但是礙於人事總署這邊還沒有核定所以沒有給錢所以從9月1號到現在已經五個月了欸以第一級戰家一萬二來算的話你積欠每一個人已經積欠六萬了"},{"start":8758.388,"end":8773.354,"text":"還要再往後積欠嗎我當然知道得追捕啊如果沒追捕那還得了那對我們的國軍弟兄來說會不會太不公平我知道會追捕但不能一直用這樣子的想法來面對這件事情我要強調的是這個點因為你看這個時間上面非常的清楚你在8月的時候已經送人種核備到現在是115年的2月然後也沒有所謂的沒有錢的問題59億的戰鬥家籍我們在追加預算的時候也給你辦了"},{"start":8786.42,"end":8813.491,"text":"那現在變成是變成是我告訴你喔你可以看到在115年2月份的時候會出現一個狀況就是因為你們積欠戰鬥家籍的關係我們看下兩張投影片在1月的時候的薪水就是前一個月12月核定的裡面的戰家是用舊單位的名義去發的所以2月心想當中呢他要先被追繳扣除之後等人總合過新單位的戰家才回溯播放"},{"start":8814.051,"end":8830.595,"text":"但是呢二月的戰價也沒有合過再加上你被追繳的被追繳扣掉的一萬兩千二的第一級戰家一來一往是差了多少錢啊一個人差了兩萬四千塊錢所以這個數字是很大的二等兵最低薪資41350來算的話就佔他的總待遇的六成對基層官兵來說是很多的"},{"start":8837.117,"end":8855.835,"text":"受到官兵的影響人數光是海軍就兩百多光是陸軍四百多至少有六百名的是官兵他因為這樣的關係他在整個這幾個月過程當中他會覺得受到國防部的欺騙我們回到第一張投影片可以再看一下這個過程我現在幾個問題要問剛剛的數據我其實都講解得很清楚了"},{"start":8860.64,"end":8876.637,"text":"我要問的是到底什麼時候才能夠核備完畢才能夠回溯發放一定要簽到過年嗎不用吧能不能夠承諾在過年前把這些錢回溯給我們的無人機大隊的軍人朋友啊"},{"start":8877.459,"end":8895.175,"text":"我想我會跟這個人事長來溝通然後進訴那你溝通到底有沒有效呢因為這個部長你應該知道不是我第一個在這邊質詢的先前不同黨派的委員們也在這邊都在問都在替我們的國軍來請命可是似乎沒有用"},{"start":8895.715,"end":8911.629,"text":"如果他上次別的委員在質詢的時候我也在台下聽我也覺得他問得很好所以呢我又等了一陣子之後發現怎麼還是沒有核備過怎麼還是沒有發然後現在已經要準備二月要過年了我不希望國防部欠我們軍人錢欠過年這個對這個我們國人來說是一個很重要的時間點你欠他的大概六萬多塊錢還來講好了"},{"start":8920.057,"end":8942.324,"text":"那人家過年要發紅包的呀要回家這個陪爸爸媽媽的呀然後結果錢全部都壓在國防部裡面的應該屬於他的權益都沒有給他這樣子說得過去嗎我們是這樣子課待我們自己的官兵弟兄嗎我知道以國防部長您的角色來說您一定也是希望盡快核被通過的但是我要問的是到底我們跟任總監出了什麼問題可以這樣子連續五個月"},{"start":8946.245,"end":8964.438,"text":"都沒有辦法有進展然後這麼多的委員不分黨派的催促了都沒有辦法有進展那到底您說要去溝通那為什麼都不能溝通成功呢我想我們會來我本人會跟任總來做一個說明你要什麼時候再去跟他就是"},{"start":8965.359,"end":8974.246,"text":"聊一聊啊我有一個要求就是說可不可以不要欠過年啊因為你們現在是一個欠錢狀態我已經有約了日期了可不可以跟他說不要欠錢欠過年因為我真的很不希望國防部發600多個基層的官兵然後這麼多錢佔他的薪資裡面的六成然後呢你欠了他五個月然後要欠到過年我覺得這真正不對這真的不對"},{"start":8994.022,"end":9008.902,"text":"就是於情於理 於法來說都不對所以就是我希望這邊真的跟人種不是只是說我溝通溝通好幾次了都沒有什麼很具體的成效這個是讓我覺得很訝異的事情既然無人機大隊我們這麼重視"},{"start":9010.524,"end":9028.399,"text":"然後我們接下來的預算包含特別預算要籌貨這麼多的無人機代表在我們的建軍上面來說他是很重要的一環那我們在人員培育人員的薪資人員的待遇的發放上面就要合情合理合法這樣才是一個完整的戰鬥部隊"},{"start":9030.05,"end":9046.916,"text":"我想我這邊對當然這些無人機大隊的這個成員我當然對於我們現在還沒有辦法發放表示歉意那我想我會積極的向人總來爭取然後讓他能夠追溯至部隊邊桩合併來生效"},{"start":9048.857,"end":9074.15,"text":"那最後我有一個要給您看一下就是你們這個軍隊裡面不能用這種造謠的方式來處理這個事情像部長您剛剛態度很好我非常的肯定因為我們做到這樣子沒有對得起這個我們基層軍官兵的事情那是一個事實能夠調整能夠改善盡快去改善這是我們的希望那但是呢絕對不應該像這樣子我們的防防部"},{"start":9077.051,"end":9103.281,"text":"在這個是1月22號禮拜四11點半的時候有軍官在問為什麼的錢都下不來結果得到的回復叫做什麼呢說因為戰鬥加急的預算卡在立法院不對喔9月的時候就應該發了9月10月11月12月的這4個月的官長這4個月的戰鬥加急我們是不是有在追加預算的時候追了59億"},{"start":9104.682,"end":9131.313,"text":"怎麼會是沒有給錢呢如果您要跟我們去談說像今天您也當然有些氣氛就是有關於總預算或者是後續的這個特別預算等等的那您針對這個部分我覺得我們有討論的空間但我今天討論的是從九月份無人機大隊成立一路到現在是十二月份九十十一十二這四個月的戰鬥加急立法院有追加預算五十九億過的"},{"start":9132.734,"end":9158.21,"text":"是因為卡在人種的關係不是因為卡在立法院的關係彭防部怎麼可以跟我們的軍人這樣子去做造謠呢不對吧跟委員報告這個五四九一應該是跟這個這個部分比較沒有關係因為這個部分應該是指我們那個之前調整的各項的五項那個加級的部分裡面有這樣的加級啊沒有嗎我們"},{"start":9162.037,"end":9173.911,"text":"裡面有戰鬥加急嘛對對對但是對這一個這一個部分跟無人機的大隊的這個部分沒有沒有我想我不是要為這個討論我想我們主要要說明的就是說我們會盡力跟人種來爭取因為是有戰鬥加急的追加預算送進來的"},{"start":9182.321,"end":9191.029,"text":"但是因為人種沒有核定所以沒有辦法發放這個才是事件的原貌所以說呢如果今天有國軍弟兄來詢問他的長官說為什麼要追繳我的原本的之後才要還我為什麼我領不到的時候這個第四點說是因為"},{"start":9200.998,"end":9225.437,"text":"戰鬥加急預算卡在立法院這個說法其實不是不是正確的我覺得不能用這種方式去欺騙我們國軍弟兄這樣是不好的所以我們正本清源我們還是希望就是針對九十十一十二這四個月的部分那能夠盡快的跟人總這邊來核定之後真的欠錢不要欠過年在年前看能不能夠還給我們的國軍弟兄至於"},{"start":9228.599,"end":9257.294,"text":"今年度的就2026年的我相信接下來到時候審定總預算的時候我們會全力來支持這個是沒有問題的我們一向都非常支持軍人的待遇能夠提高那但是我剛講的這個去年的部分有欠人家的趕快還這個真的是要再一次的跟部長代表我們國軍弟兄跟部長請命是不是在過年之前可以有一個結果是不是可以給我一個最後簡短的回覆好不好"},{"start":9257.874,"end":9274.881,"text":"我是主席局局長針對剛剛委員有提到的我這邊回應兩點第一個有關說戰鬥加急預算目前卡在立法院這邊我要做個說明就是所有的這個戰鬥加急跟心想它都是屬於人事費的法定義務支出它並不會因為立法院沒有審議通過而不能發"},{"start":9275.481,"end":9300.728,"text":"所以這部分我這邊要做個說明第二點有關剛剛委員提到說是不是1月份已經有發的部分要去做一個追扣那我分兩點來說明如果這個單位它是新編程的當然要依照新編程之後才能發如果這個單位是因為更閒或者是組織調整移編造成它的名稱或它任務有所調整的話那這部分當然要等到行政院人總這邊核定之後才能做發"},{"start":9302.769,"end":9326.648,"text":"1月份已經發了部分我們會等到行政院核定說確定他不能發我們才會去做追補扣如果說他還可以發那我們不會先把他你說到什麼時候決定就看行政院什麼時候能夠核下來剛剛部長已經有講有跟任總這邊來協調一個時間我們會做這個密切的一個溝通謝謝那我們是部長最後回覆一下就是有沒有機會在過年之前可以把這個錢再還給大家拖了五個月了"},{"start":9327.228,"end":9333.972,"text":"破了五個月了啦跟人事長約好我想我會盡力來表達你不能只是盡力來表達你要站在國軍弟兄的立場用力表達好不好在這件事情上我對你是全力相挺如果今天說那個他們再有什麼意見的話那我去找他吵架也可以"},{"start":9344.699,"end":9350.244,"text":"不能欠人家薪水欠成這個樣子我們國軍弟兄在外面面對中共的軍演大家辛苦成這樣演習的時長越拉越長然後這麼辛苦然後我們要編無人機的大隊然後我們在各軍種裡面我們都在找人一起加入這個無人機大隊大家知道有戰家之後也都加入了結果進來之後發現錢怎麼沒給"},{"start":9363.875,"end":9379.304,"text":"這真的不好所以有需要我們一起支持的部分我一定全力支持但是也希望部長在這裡要跟任總這邊講真的在過年之前不要讓大家沒有辦法過一個好年因為為什麼我在這邊我花這麼多時間講這個事情是我在過年"},{"start":9379.904,"end":9395.336,"text":"之前也不會再跟您在這邊有質詢的機會了所以話一定要講清楚所以也我相信國訓弟兄如果看了質詢也聽到您剛有表達這個歉意也知道您會去溝通那希望能夠有一個順利的好的結果謝謝部長謝謝我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":9756.468,"end":9766.072,"text":"我們繼續開會接下來請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢你好我們請部長跟情報相關的所有官員"},{"start":9786.058,"end":9786.619,"text":"謝謝 請顧部長還有情報相關"},{"start":9798.669,"end":9819.694,"text":"部長好部長我們簡單來先請教一下剛才我看王定文有問過但是我就直接比較直接了當的來問中共中央的經委副主席張又俠那他被依照他們說法是好嚴重的違反他們的法律那之後對台的這個中共軍對台的威脅性是提高還是降低你們怎麼看"},{"start":9821.636,"end":9850.161,"text":"您說對中共對台的威脅未來這一個因為他們的人是有激烈鬥爭那負責掌握軍事重權的這個張又俠那這個被說很違紀違法之後那被整肅之後接下來對台灣的不管是採取的這種戰略攻勢等等是會來越來越風險越高還是其實是降低因為他們沒有足夠的能力去執行軍事行動我想請教一下部長跟我們相關的情報單位怎麼看"},{"start":9850.481,"end":9869.957,"text":"第一點就是說中國的這個軍事的預算逐年升高對我們的軍事的威脅當然就是日益升高而且近來對於這些相關的這些不管是日常的這些侵擾或聯合戰備警巡乃至於針對性的軍援我想這些威脅都沒有在減少"},{"start":9871.918,"end":9894.827,"text":"我們判斷的應該是不會去因個別高層的落馬然後就來做一個結論性的一個意見而相關的是我們應該是盡量去收集軍事跟所有非軍事面的這些相關的這些威脅的徵喉然後來做一個研判"},{"start":9895.527,"end":9911.944,"text":"所以他們的高層官員的落馬與否跟他們實質上的能力反映在他們的能力上面或反映在他們的意圖上面不會有直接的關係我們是要依照他們的投資的資源以及他們的實質上面的軍事能力來去做判斷是這樣子講會比較正確嗎"},{"start":9914.368,"end":9940.481,"text":"對 事實上的軍事能力事實上相關如果說有任何的一個具體的威脅情勢存在那麼這些情勢的不是只限於軍事面包括社會軍事面所以中國的這些所有黨政軍的高層的這個異動以及相關他們的決策的一個狀況我想我們都是持續關注密駐的一個對象"},{"start":9941.089,"end":9953.167,"text":"那張又俠的這個事件我們事先有沒有我們各個情報局處有沒有接獲到相關的資訊 我想之前他們沒有出席的時候應該是上次"},{"start":9956.181,"end":9972.491,"text":"所以我想我們之前因為大家都會有看到一些相關他們一些狀況所以就會有做一些研判不過我想這些研判基於中國內部的不透明性我想我們都會等他們會公佈以後我們才預確定這樣子"},{"start":9972.571,"end":9998.778,"text":"好 謝謝原則上來講的話我們還是料敵的部分我們還是用最嚴格的標準來對待我們自己所以我們要來請教一下最近有兩件重大的事件第一個就是在中共無人機直接傳我們東沙東沙群島的領空是真正是領空因為它的據聞是從新聞上面來看到的話是超越我軍的射程對吧是這樣嗎 部長"},{"start":10000.238,"end":10017.894,"text":"我想我們已經有說明了就是說相關的這些在我們的這個防空射程之外這我們已經有說明了不過我想實際的狀況我覺得我們不宜在這個地方我們只是強調就是說我們就這些突發狀況"},{"start":10019.115,"end":10036.761,"text":"處置規定已經有律定相關的敵情應變的原則那這次他直接進入我國的領空那我們未來敵情應變我們是要採取什麼樣的做法採取警告採取直接因為他直接進入領空那如果我們的做法未來"},{"start":10038.121,"end":10054.448,"text":"決定敵情應變的方式是採取廣播警告之後那他會不會像我過去常常在講的他用緩慢的改變現狀的方式從東沙然後到甚至是到我們的甚至到澎湖假設他已經進入我國的領空我們也是要用廣播警告嗎讓他們廣播警告後飛離嗎"},{"start":10055.43,"end":10069.068,"text":"我想重點是在於這些有關漸進式的灰色地帶洗澡我們第一個就要運用我們的聯合警戒性能來全程掌握然後並且我們要視它威脅的形態威脅的程度來做應處"},{"start":10070.51,"end":10098.633,"text":"OK 好 那我只是因為我沒有要知道戰術上面的細節我也不需要知道那我只是要強調已經進入我國的領空了那這個可能就沒那麼灰色因為它進入我國的領空那未來如果不是在東沙不是在比較遙遠的離島而是在台澎 金馬裡面的台澎特別是台澎地區又不一樣了那我們的做法因應敵情 情間爭等等我想可能要思考一下"},{"start":10099.794,"end":10127.337,"text":"因為直接進入領空它不是什麼24海里以外那我們的做法可能要做一些調整我只是建議因為接下來就是不斷的會有這樣的事情得寸進尺然後慢慢的改變現狀然後讓它成為繼承事實最後再向國際做成他們的論述那就會對我國不管是國防甚至是外交上面的論述我們可能都會受到影響所以這個部分還是請部長可以回去看看檢討一下如果真的已經進入領空我們到底要"},{"start":10128.158,"end":10156.4,"text":"有沒有什麼其他的方式來去做應對不是說一定要做極弱的動作但是怎麼樣把它驅離甚至用物理的方式把它驅離甚至是擊損我想特別是針對他們是無人機不是有人載具是無人載具我認為風險上升的可能性不見得會那麼高但是還是要有動能的反應特別是針對無人機進入我國的領空的話"},{"start":10157.641,"end":10177.282,"text":"這只是我們的建議給國防部做參考因為有接到不同的聲音來自我國友邦的不同的智庫有針對這件事情來做出一些反應所以我覺得還是要向國防部來討論這樣的事項再來我們剛才提到除了無人載具之外"},{"start":10179.076,"end":10204.975,"text":"另外一個就是其實今天不少委員都有提到關於操作人員操作人員這個也是老話題操作人員裡面我認為是培養人員這也不是一天兩天的事情部長你知道去年台灣大學的一年的預算大概是多少錢嗎大概是256億對不起這個我就不用因為這個沒有什麼好考大概是256億我們的三軍官校加上國防大學大概是多少錢"},{"start":10206.58,"end":10226.096,"text":"去年大概是21億21億 總共21億那所以人均的水平來講的話我們剛有稍微算一算那這些台城清交這些頂大大概是70幾萬那我們的這些軍隊的這個培養我們未來的軍事人員的重鎮大概只有十幾萬嘛快要20左右 17 18萬"},{"start":10227.737,"end":10242.168,"text":"那我覺得未來我們在培養人才特別是我們要操作高度精密性的這種需要大量的資源投入來去學習的這一些軍備我們的軍備其實採購包含無人機無人機不是操作而已"},{"start":10242.728,"end":10269.542,"text":"未來的維修整補改造特別是在烏克蘭的戰場中我們看到它是不斷的需要調教的也就是說我們在訓練我們未來的工程人才我們的電機人才我們的電腦科學人才來講它是必須要很花時間跟資源在上面的所以我們1.25兆它是逐年編列我覺得它裡面特別是有很多急迫性的不管是彈藥不管是這一個最新的裝備的更新都是極端需要的但是在人才上面的培育上面"},{"start":10270.262,"end":10294.825,"text":"如果沒有人在裡面的話那我們到底要怎麼樣使用這些武器今年我們看到一些非常好的一些訊息就是1月1號我們成立陸軍無人機訓練中心我們就開始在把這個負責地面無人機的操作 實質培訓戰術 戰法的測速運用都有把它包含在裡面這就是很好的開始因為我們重視的是以人為本因為沒有人的話就沒有人會操作沒有人會改造 沒有人會維修"},{"start":10296.331,"end":10324.158,"text":"部長未來有沒有考慮說怎麼樣加強這個部分把這個我們投資在軍事人員上面的部分再把它提高有沒有這樣的規劃115年在軍事院校的部分現在是有提高從21億提高到25億多了4億多了那我想剛剛委員指教了應該我想就人均數就是說我們陸海空國防大學還有國防醫學大學還有包括"},{"start":10324.858,"end":10350.603,"text":"航院 陸軍專校 中正營學校 我想這些學生樹根我們花在他們身上的這個人均的這個預算我們可以來檢討大概只有三分之一到四分之一嘛因為我們剛才是跟國防部要的一些有很多的這個 您剛剛講到的這些訓練其實是有另外再透過我們相關的一些在進入部隊之後來進行這個培育比如說"},{"start":10351.563,"end":10367.734,"text":"我們的自動電軍我們可能也會花大筆的錢來培訓他我們這些無人機的這個部分我們現在成立無人機中心有這些無人機的中心我們所有的這些"},{"start":10368.774,"end":10395.674,"text":"設備也都是要來進行這些相關的人員訓練上的一個投資不然我們都知道我們也都肯定我講這個意思是說其實當你大專院校畢業之後研究所院校畢業之後你進入任何的民間企業私人公司也都會有這樣子的訓練這本來就會有那我們都理解那我們要求的是說未來把這些特別是因為我們現在可能要面臨的威脅是比較急迫性的時間性是比較趕的"},{"start":10396.474,"end":10414.437,"text":"所以我可能會比較直接的要求特別是在科學工程這個領域上面我們把它提高這個東西是很難就是大學過後你再去學那你再學習這些邏輯學習這一些基本的這些知識會有點我講會有點力不從心會比較慢一點所以這些地方我們先優先在這些上面"},{"start":10415.638,"end":10443.829,"text":"抱歉 我可能這樣講在文科上面我自己是讀文科的我們可能資源可能先不用放那麼多因為我們現在面臨的是急迫性的所以工程學上面的就是任何跟我們現在裝備使用相關的盡快 人均把它提高 越快越好那時間不站在任何人這邊因為我們不用假設是時間在中國這邊還是台灣這邊但我們就假設就是這個五年假設會遇到衝突那我們要怎麼樣把資源把它做調配"},{"start":10445.45,"end":10462.391,"text":"我想這些都是很明顯的因為不管是任何的資訊起來遊訓轉戰等等的或者是他們的居民的像最近的東海的活動調查當然的這個中國的漁船在特定時間特定海域異常的集結所以他們在用動用的是全國的資源全國的資源在裡面"},{"start":10464.525,"end":10479.97,"text":"我不知道我們特別預算什麼時候會通過但是至少在我們現在能夠調配的部分在理工部分工程部分無人機訓練使用這個部分彈藥這些盡量盡快把它確保有什麼需要我們盡量來去協助好 謝謝謝偉謝謝接下來請王洪威委員上台質詢"},{"start":10492.932,"end":10494.662,"text":"好謝謝主席請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":10501.823,"end":10525.12,"text":"好 部長早安 辛苦了部長請教一下1月17號一架中共的尖針無人機在凌晨5點44分進入東沙島領空這是國防部證實的消息但是我們是以用廣播警告的方式它在4分鐘之後離開我們的領空"},{"start":10527.422,"end":10532.671,"text":"國防部為此嚴正表示說這是調性不負責任的行為要受到譴責"},{"start":10534.076,"end":10559.373,"text":"所以呢這次入侵領空的事件我們的反擊是用譴責的方式但是呢回顧過去包含當時的邱國正部長或者是您在立法院裡面很多人都關心就是我們所謂的當中共有軍事的一些行動的時候我們的第一級或者行使自衛權的定義跟標準是什麼"},{"start":10564.616,"end":10575.063,"text":"當時邱部長在113年3月8號的時候說第一級的鑑定就是包含敵方的無人機或者是氣球侵入領空它不需要開炮 它也不需要開槍我們就可以發動第一級這是邱部長的定義那您在113年6月6號"},{"start":10587.83,"end":10593.532,"text":"當時呢 這個也是 你的表示是說如果共軍對於台灣本島 外島 離島未經許可進入十二里 領空 領海就可以下令國軍行使自衛權依比例進行自衛反擊所以我想請教一下部長"},{"start":10609.898,"end":10632.876,"text":"那麼以1月17號中共無人機侵入東沙島領空符不符合您所謂的可以進行自衛反擊就可以行使自衛權這邊有一個重點當然就是說依照他威脅的程度和比例性的來進行自衛反擊那如果說他"},{"start":10634.85,"end":10660.593,"text":"有對我們進行一個武裝攻擊的話我們當然就擁有採取武力進行自我防衛所以1月17號您認為我們沒有進行任何反擊而是讓他廣播驅離這樣子是合適的是不是要依照他的敵情來做一個研判那請問一下部長當天你是什麼時候知道中共無人機侵入了東沙島的領空"},{"start":10661.46,"end":10678.838,"text":"我有接獲回報大概什麼時候 因為他是很早 早上五點四十幾分但是他很快的離開是 我也是一早就被吵醒一早被吵醒 因為非常有可能你剛剛笑了 沒有錯啦如果他未來侵入領空 他不會幫你算時間 上班時間那他可能在夜裡都有可能好 那我的意思就是說"},{"start":10684.224,"end":10704.145,"text":"那如果今天他現在停留的是四分鐘如果他即便是經過我們廣播區裡他仍然在繼續停留他可能停留到二十分鐘 三十分鐘 四十分鐘我想請問那個行使自衛權反擊是不是要由部長下令還是要用什麼層級下令"},{"start":10705.311,"end":10721.729,"text":"我們在突發狀況處置規定以及聯合戰略計畫都有律定授權的舉證跟交戰規則部隊可以視敵情的威脅予以應處好 所以東沙島的軍官就可以視他的威脅性可以行使待機"},{"start":10722.851,"end":10740.084,"text":"威脅的程度如果他認為被進行有遭受到武裝攻擊剛剛已經講了他就可以行使自衛權的反應所以你的6月113年這裡有涉及到一個合比例性的問題所以你113年6月6號的那個說法仍然是確立的"},{"start":10742.177,"end":10759.321,"text":"我想我們就是依照他聯合國的憲章51條我們會有行使自衛權的一個固有權利那只是說這個行使自衛權當然就是以威脅的程度我們和比例的進行部長我還是要說因為侵入領空跟沒有侵入領空這個界線仍然是非常不一樣的"},{"start":10763.562,"end":10784.458,"text":"即便他不是本島 他是來自東 就是在東沙島但是大家也知道 其實我們也擔心中共有所謂的奪島計畫所以我覺得這件事情 還是要讓外界知道我們其實是可以進行反擊 而不是只有口頭上的譴責另外請教一下 剛才那個陳委員也請教你"},{"start":10785.666,"end":10791.83,"text":"最近全世界都在關心中共中央軍委一下又有兩個委員落馬那整個七個中央委員裡面現在只剩下兩個所以在外界的評估裡面一種是比較樂觀的評估所以你看這個他們就是首腦"},{"start":10805.459,"end":10811.121,"text":"當你這個軍事的首腦七個有五個都已經空掉了之後呢 對於台灣的威脅就會降低因為在這樣的狀況之下不大可能去對台灣發動大規模的軍事的行動您同意嗎 這是有一些學者專家這樣認為"},{"start":10830.819,"end":10849.644,"text":"我們認為對我們的威脅不會因為個別高層的落馬而就能夠下一個結論性的判斷他不是個別他現在七個人裡面只剩兩個了另外一個是我們這個張申明剛升上去我們需要更關注的是他對我們他的軍費的一個增長對我們的威脅的他們的"},{"start":10850.504,"end":10876.842,"text":"相關的軍事能力還有相關的所謂所有有關軍事跟非軍事的徵喉我們所依據的判斷是這個而到底我想正反的意見都有但是我們關注了光部本於料敵從寬的這個原則我們認為中共始終不放棄武力犯台就這個部分對我們的威脅還是日益嚴峻所以部長採取的仍然比較謹慎沒有那麼樂觀我覺得這個態度也是對的"},{"start":10880.564,"end":10897.827,"text":"因為事實上他另外兩個李尚福、苗華那麼他們事實上在2024年就落馬了可是大家也看到在去年仍然有兩次大規模的圍台軍演那其實很多人是覺得說在這些軍事首腦即使他們落馬可是他這些圍台軍演看起來也是按照他們原來的計畫並沒有因此而落差"},{"start":10906.749,"end":10914.432,"text":"所以也有人擔心的是即便他們也許內部高層有人說這是整肅也有人說這是鬥爭但是無論如何對台灣以這幾年發動七次的大規模維台軍演去年就有達到兩次之多所以我們仍然去應該要嚴正以待所以部長你採取的態度是比較屬於我剛才講的後者嗎"},{"start":10935.191,"end":10958.73,"text":"所以我們還是會 剛剛講的就是說中共沒有放棄武力換台中共的軍費每年都以百分之七到八的幅度成長中共不斷地在我們周遭進行聯合戰備警巡從事洗澡 從事針對性的軍演中共對我們的威脅始終是存在的而且是日益嚴峻的所以我們從來不敢輕忽"},{"start":10960.031,"end":10987.171,"text":"不會因為看到說哪一位落馬那我們就輕忽我們應該所以賴總統說2027年完成就是清台的準備目前我們還是這個看法嗎我們國軍的立場就是我們要要達到一個高戰備能力然後我們要持續的維持這個高戰備能力而且不斷的在提升我們的戰備能力這是我們的態度"},{"start":10987.742,"end":11001.387,"text":"好OK謝謝接下來請羅明才羅明才羅明才委員不在請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":11023.5,"end":11040.611,"text":"今天我們的主題其實最重要的我想除了讓全國民眾了解我們現在目前的國軍的武器採購的策略跟國防預算的編列之外其實我覺得最重要的應該就像我曾經多次對外講如果說今天我們家裡的鎖"},{"start":11042.981,"end":11062.822,"text":"已經老舊或者是不堪使用或有更多的地方需要門鎖或窗戶鎖的時候最重要的是要趕快把它補上了那麼上個禮拜一的這個時間點我們其實也開了國防的機密會議喔那麼在這個機密會議當中呢我其實現在是非常關注的是"},{"start":11064.944,"end":11093.864,"text":"確實就是民眾黨的黃國昌委員有把這個機密文件帶出去那麼帶出去現在呢民進黨的立委也已經提告了是不是牽涉涉密我想檢調單位會去查但是確實這個文件是拿出去了我想當時在場包括我在內包括部長在內許多我們在場的官兵都知道這件事情發生他絕對不是空穴來風不是抹黑"},{"start":11094.424,"end":11114.554,"text":"因為有人真的拿出去至於這個文件拿出去了將近一分多鐘的時間點又拿了回來這個也是發生的事實我現在不是要討論這個個別委員到底是不是牽涉機密因為檢調單是不是洩密檢調單我已經在查了可是這個事件確實發生而當時我相信我們可以召開這個機密會議一定某部分的"},{"start":11124.298,"end":11144.175,"text":"也獲得了美方的一些默契因為我們都知道有一些其實是不能公開的甚至於都還在跟美方接洽當中但是因為就是預算一直被卡在程序委員會甚至於是不要說這個所謂年度預算被卡住是連特別預算的條例都被卡住"},{"start":11144.815,"end":11172.072,"text":"所以為了因應立法院能夠有監督所以我們開了星期一的會議本席現在要詢問的是部長這個事件我想全世界都看到包括美方也知道這個會不會影響到我們接下來有關於特別預算武器或包括我們軍購這個部分受到影響尤其是信任上面的影響有沒有跟美方做溝通又或者是他們有沒有什麼反應"},{"start":11173.995,"end":11190.085,"text":"我覺得重點應該還是在於我們要有一個明確的一個在立法院的動作那如果遲遲不能夠復違的話我想就我國安部立場來講我們絕對"},{"start":11193.619,"end":11218.056,"text":"沒有辦法再跟美方做一個很好的溝通他會不斷的在問為什麼不能夠再往下走這一次國防戰略報告也一再的強調就是說要在西太平洋第一島鏈建構巨子型的防禦然後其中有一個很重要的就是要跟盟友夥伴來共同強化整體嚇阻能力"},{"start":11218.957,"end":11243.383,"text":"所以他這個地方透露一個很明確的訊息就是說第一島鏈的國家大家都要一起承擔維護整個印太地區的和平穩定的一個責任台灣是不可能在這樣子的一個所謂整體的嚇阻的能力置身事外的"},{"start":11245.695,"end":11269.236,"text":"這個這個我想如果你看日本要今年要增加到9兆日元那這個折合台幣已經是1.8兆的這樣子的一個史上前所未見的一個國防預算那麼美國自己本身也要增加國防預算那菲律賓也在強化他的這個國防能力澳洲甚至紐西蘭那如果如果"},{"start":11270.057,"end":11294.027,"text":"我們在跟美方從事相關的這些交流軍事交流的時候那麼我們此時沒有看好看到我們的國防預算不管是年度部分的預算案或者是我們的特別條例甚至能夠護衛都不行我覺得我也不曉得要怎麼去說明跟解釋啦那我只是要強調就是說"},{"start":11296.773,"end":11322.896,"text":"我們台灣是第一島鏈的一個關鍵角色這美國國家安全戰略講得很清楚那我們自己要有建構自己的能力然後展現自我的決心這是一個國際所關切的一個事項這個不跟好野黨派有任何的關聯這個應該是大家都要來全力支持的一個事項"},{"start":11323.923,"end":11350.441,"text":"部長其實就您所回應的我可不可以擷取一個重點就是說如果這個軍購一直被擋在程序委員會甚至於是連立法院都沒有審的時候會傳遞出一個所謂錯誤的訊息就是認為台灣不願意自己守護自己的這個第一島鏈上面應有的責任之外甚至於不願意一起來做共同防禦那麼包括我相信這個"},{"start":11352.902,"end":11357.007,"text":"站規司的黃司長其實也講了在上就是1月22號的記者會當中您說國軍由於考量國家財力負荷建軍戰備的規劃所以長期以來都是以最低嚇阻能力"},{"start":11370.501,"end":11388.049,"text":"來勉勵為之其實坦白講喔我當時看到記者會聽到你講這句話我其實蠻震驚的因為顯然也是在一個非萬不得已的情況底下您才會說出這樣的話但是就如同現在我們看到的只要是一旦預算被拖延那麼"},{"start":11389.25,"end":11397.82,"text":"我們等於就是排不上隊排不上隊就要重排重排那麼包括我們都知道物價會上漲整個採購的費用也會隨著時間點而變成價格會變得更貴我必須要說現在我們所傳遞出來的訊息是不是就變成是只要"},{"start":11410.394,"end":11434.629,"text":"這個國民黨在立法院佔多數所有的歷史就會重演包括今天媒體有特別提到要復刻蓮湖會杯葛69次其實本席在準備這個題目的時候也回去找了2004年6月的時候當時是國民黨加親民黨在立法院佔了多數也是聯手在程序委員會杯葛後來因為屆期不連續到了2005年之後"},{"start":11437.29,"end":11462.161,"text":"再提一次當時同樣的一樣是被卡在程序委員會最後逼的只能用所謂的公務預算來做執行那麼再搭配今天出來的新聞我想要強調的是部長如果像這樣真的是復刻20年前的老劇本這才叫做老狗變不出新把戲他的把戲永遠都是只有"},{"start":11462.901,"end":11484.079,"text":"卡卡卡但是就像部長講的我們國家的安全其實沒有顏色那麼這樣子一再卡下去甚至於被逼的回去因為這麼巧我們就是現在連總預算都還不審那如果說他們就是要逼迫變成跟2005年一樣所有的東西通通要推到年度總預算的話部長這樣該怎麼辦"},{"start":11486.55,"end":11502.238,"text":"我想我這邊還是呼籲就是說案子如果能夠互違那就是到了委員會就等於是有案有一個案那看要大家要怎麼討論對這個案這個條例裡面的這個氣象我們要採購的這些裝備我們可以來討論如果現在連討論的機會都沒有的話我覺得我們就會"},{"start":11511.15,"end":11522.896,"text":"沒有辦法來說明為什麼連討論的這個案在委員會形成都沒有辦法這件事情對我來講其實我沒有辦法能夠理解"},{"start":11525.769,"end":11538.425,"text":"對 其實喔這個本席會特別提出來這個是因為我們現在都講的是一個空的就像我所謂空的是說因為根本就像我們一個家裡你要買一些門鎖 門窗甚至於藥裝這個所謂警衛系統"},{"start":11541.809,"end":11546.092,"text":"如果說只是這樣的一個想法都沒有辦法通過那麼如何來討論細目但是在這裡本席有一個請求啦就是希望國防部能夠包括司長黃司長你都已經提到了如果一旦延宕就會造成影響那麼到底如果延宕會具體造成哪些影響國防部你們是不是可以就一個我們目前國軍可能的包括缺口或者是騎乘"},{"start":11570.649,"end":11584.459,"text":"或者是相關的方案是不是可以有一個更明白的書面報告因為從剛剛部長所講的再到司長您所說的就是民眾可能無法理解我以2004年到2005年過程我們所"},{"start":11588.782,"end":11608.278,"text":"發生的事情就是一旦延宕那麼你就排不上騎乘然後就會造成我們現在所講的我們的國軍都是以最低的嚇阻能力來做進行這個對於我們第一線的士官兵這也不是一件好事啊所以可不可以具體的羅列出來一旦像這樣從宋晉來到現在這樣的延宕他所影響的具體的騎乘或是具體的影響到底是什麼有沒有可能書面化"},{"start":11617.148,"end":11644.381,"text":"我想我們都希望我們的能力能夠提升我們也希望我們的國軍能夠拿到好的裝備那我們會持續跟朝野的立委來進行溝通我們也會跟公眾來進行溝通所以我們會努力在這方面我想我們委員的指教我們回去以後來競速來鑽擬這些需要跟朝野的立委溝通還有跟公眾溝通的這些事項"},{"start":11644.861,"end":11655.73,"text":"好 因為我要強調雖然我一直用家裡的門鎖啊這個安全啊來做來做轉達希望民眾能夠聽得懂但是它絕對不是像我們家裡買冰箱買汽車買這個一個電腦"},{"start":11660.513,"end":11681.219,"text":"這些東西其實它的採購的過程中包括下訂的過程到簽約的過程當中它的期程是跟一般的採購行為不一樣但是很多民眾他可能不了解甚至於有一些立法委員他們甚至於不是不了解而是故意不了解所以我覺得更要明確的把這樣的嚴重性必須要講出來是 好 謝偉謝謝謝謝"},{"start":11690.527,"end":11693.549,"text":"接下來請葉元之委員上台質詢麻煩請部長謝謝請部長"},{"start":11719.542,"end":11739.829,"text":"是 葉委員部長好我想請教一下今天我們在討論說那個軍購預算它到底應該放在特別預算還是一般預算那我想另外先問一個問題因為我們現在去採購這些裝備那目前國防部編列的預算除了裝備本身之外大概應該也會編前一兩年的一些維修費用會嗎會嗎"},{"start":11741.701,"end":11757.681,"text":"他就這個新式的裝備有關相關所需要的這些新式裝備的一些那些接裝的初次的備份料件還有這個接裝的訓練等等那大概編幾年"},{"start":11761.38,"end":11787.896,"text":"包園這個依序項目會有點不同像那個海馬仕的部分他因為保固期是三年所以我們規劃的部分他的初次備份料件也是三年然後那戰車呢接裝訓練也是三年標槍跟托士的部分因為已經有買過了所以他不需要再做前置的接裝訓練只要做著內拱總能擴訓所以這個部分他的備份料件的部分跟訓練的部分我們是以"},{"start":11788.536,"end":11812.561,"text":"第一年來編列 後續就是以維持費來支應好 那譬如說以戰車來講 編幾年戰車的部分是一年半一年半 好 但是我就講戰車啦戰車我們應該不是只用一年半嘛 對吧我們預計要用多少年戰車的部分 戰甲 砲車它都有一個概略的標準期程是大概在十年的時候 它會進行檢討做"},{"start":11814.716,"end":11841.377,"text":"OK 其實我的問題很簡單就是因為我們現在在省預算的時候其實我們只看得到比如說以戰車來說就是第一年的作業費然後維修費用但是假設他用十年甚至用到二十年那後續十幾年他到底需要花到多少錢其實是看不出來的所以我們希望說網部可不可以幫評估一下我們買這些裝備到底後續來講的話可能還需要花到多少錢來做"},{"start":11842.518,"end":11847.403,"text":"不管是維修也好或者是保存也好等等因為我們現在裝備不是買來買來就好後續還有很多維修費用比如我們買愛國者的飛彈愛國者飛彈它有時候比如說彈頭什麼問題你還要送回美國去處理再送回來其實都是很大一筆費用"},{"start":11860.973,"end":11890.456,"text":"那其實我們也看到說最近我們國軍的裝備的維修費用其實是越來越高其實越來越高像今年光是空軍的維修保險費用我看媒體報導就是已經編了625億比去年的437億都升高那這個當然有很多原因一方面可能是因為比如說兩岸關係緊張中共可能常常這個飛機老台辦飛使用頻率比較高甚至於我們裝備增加都有可能"},{"start":11890.896,"end":11918.332,"text":"所以這個部分有關於後續的費用可不可以大概估一個估一個數字出來讓大家參考一下好不好作業維持費的這個部分你要考量到就是說譬如說以海馬仕為例的話我們新購進來我們會淘汰那個舊的裝備那舊的裝備如果你那個越舊是它的維持費相對來講是更高這個是海馬仕嘛有的是我們新購的嘛就是說你不能夠說你們現在講的"},{"start":11920.273,"end":11929.779,"text":"那我新裝備進來我後面要有維修那我同樣我新裝備進來我舊裝備淘汰那也要算入這個舊裝備淘汰之後所節省下來的作業維持費但是你這樣子就是我們來講你這樣就是一個陷阱題啊"},{"start":11937.043,"end":11953.167,"text":"你不要預設立場你現在覺得我來找你麻煩所以你才會這樣子講我現在只是說給個數字大家參考我沒有說新的裝備買進來之後整體維修費一定會增加多少我並沒有這樣講我只是說你概括一下讓大家參考這個去扯到說舊的淘汰幹嘛"},{"start":11955.477,"end":11973.697,"text":"這個部分可能要專門跟您做報告因為我們在整規書的細分段裡面就已經針對整厚的部分有了一個完整的規劃但是每一個他都必須經過精密計算所以也不見得每個都一樣那如果我也有興趣的話我們可以針對個案的部分去跟您說明說我們細分段是怎麼樣去推估這些整厚的"},{"start":11974.028,"end":11985.651,"text":"可以啊 謝謝然後再來再請教一下剛剛我有看到王威文也有問就是17號的時候共軍有一個針尖的無人機到我們闖到我們東沙島的領空"},{"start":11987.07,"end":12012.392,"text":"2024年那個邱國正部長他有講說我們現在已經更改了我們第一級的作業方式以前是說有如果敵軍有開炮或開槍的時候我們才會第一級但是現在是只要共軍的實體航空器越界我們就會第一級我想問一下像以東沙島那個艱增無人機闖到我們領空這個狀況它符不符合第一級的要件"},{"start":12015.118,"end":12030.388,"text":"我想剛剛已經跟王委員已經討論過了這件事情就是說這個要看因為我們本來的這些突發狀況組織規定本來就有相關的對這些有律定那就要看他這個如果按照"},{"start":12031.249,"end":12044.045,"text":"按照當時威脅的程度如果我們是遭受到武裝攻擊的話我們當然可以行使我們自我防衛的固有權利所以各級部隊可以依照突發狀況所賦予的這些授權舉證跟交戰規則來有效應處這些緊急的突發狀況"},{"start":12047.897,"end":12070.576,"text":"所以沒有 你沒有回答我的問題以比如說邱國正部長所講的只要共軍實體航空器越界我們就可以第一級那以這一次的狀況1月17號發生的狀況它沒有符合第一級的條件所以我已經講過了我們依照威脅的程度我們合比例的所以他並不是說航空器越界直接就第一級他要看它的威脅程度"},{"start":12071.216,"end":12098.425,"text":"我們依視他的威脅程度來行使自衛權的反擊對我知道那以這個個案來講他的威脅強不強我想就這個部分來看的話在當時的情況之下他不構成還不構成一個武裝攻擊的一個態勢那以這個狀況他要什麼情況下才會你才會第一級是說因為你們有叫他離開嘛然後後來他停留一段時間就離開那是說他一直不離開所以就會第一級還是怎麼樣"},{"start":12099.389,"end":12121.876,"text":"對 所以我們要試他的威脅程度這講得太籠統了因為他本身你們都沒有平常在軍中都沒有講得很清楚嗎就是說以這個個案來講現在因為他來了請他離開 離開了所以不構成威脅但是什麼什麼情況之下其實我們是可以第一級然後我們第一級我們是用什麼方式對不對你們都沒有針對這個個案做個討論"},{"start":12123.733,"end":12145.159,"text":"我們有但是我想我們並不適宜在這裡說明這個都不適宜在這邊講那誰知道你是有還是沒有每一個東西都以這種方式來迴避搞不好你根本沒有但是你講不出來你就說不適合在這邊講我不知道說這個有什麼不能講因為我剛引述的是公開資料是2024年邱國正部長在立法院答詢"},{"start":12146.53,"end":12173.067,"text":"那自己講的說共軍的航空器只要實體越界我們就可以第一級然後現在你又說我們要試情況我說那什麼情況你就說不方便講我們一直講就是說試威脅的程度行使這個威脅程度這就很籠統那我請教一下你們後來國防部有對外講說那一天之所以後來也沒有發射沒有把他打下來是因為他是在航空射程外"},{"start":12174.11,"end":12197.652,"text":"有這樣回答嗎我想新聞稿上面有這麼寫有這樣寫嗎所以他到底是因為不構成威脅沒有去打他還是因為他是在防空射程外沒有去打他我們當然要當時的判斷委員全程監控那麼依照他的這個威脅的程度不要再繞圈圈我說因為你們對外發布有講說他是在防空射程外嘛讓大家以為說是因為在防空射程外打不到"},{"start":12198.168,"end":12227.808,"text":"所以沒去打但是部長你現在講法又有點改口了說是因為他不構成威脅所以沒有去打他所以實際上他是因為在防空射程外的關係還是因為他不構成威脅我這邊可以跟委員做一個說明就是說他這個一個高高空的一個狀態所以我們認為沒有構成這個武裝攻擊的一個程度所以我們沒有行使這一個所謂的把它視為武裝攻擊而進行所謂的自衛權的反擊"},{"start":12228.928,"end":12249.761,"text":"應該是這樣講 那麼所以所以我們還是講我們依照他的威脅的程度我們何必會進行所以你的意思是說因為他在很高空啦在防空射程外所以不構成威脅所以我們沒去打他是這個意思嗎相關 我想這些細節我們"},{"start":12252.765,"end":12277.645,"text":"委員好 我是發言人沈立芳跟您做一個報告我們在新聞稿裡面所談到的在防空射程武器之外這件事情是陳述一個事實就是說它當時的高度在我們的武器射程之外好 那所以跟要不要打它是無關並不是因為它太高打不到並不是因為打不到所以沒打就對了好 那如果今天它在我們的防空射程外然後你們又評估說它有構成威脅的話你會怎麼處理"},{"start":12280.854,"end":12292.459,"text":"報告委員實際上這個在我們的突破狀況處置規定裡頭都有詳細的律定我們會看它威脅的程度做評估可是相關的戰術細節您等於在這邊我們不能公開的掀開我們這個什麼戰術細節你可以針對可以講的"},{"start":12297.921,"end":12321.946,"text":"今天大家為什麼來問這個事情因為大家會覺得說怎麼連一個針尖無人機過來好像都無法處理嘛然後國軍每次都是的回應方式就是說我們會處理我們有辦法但我不能講那誰知道你是有沒有辦法你可以針對你可以講的部分來回答可是不能夠回答方式每次都說我們有辦法但我不能講"},{"start":12322.666,"end":12336.072,"text":"這一部分牽扯到我們國軍的作戰安全我們當然不能公開你可以針對可以講的部分因為我們現在在這邊監督就是說你到底有沒有辦法因為我現在針對的是你發布的新聞稿不合理的地方在跟你討論所以剛剛那一位"},{"start":12338.473,"end":12353.93,"text":"那個官員也有講就是那兩者沒有必然關係但我們會想要知道說既然國軍有一個第一級的原則那到底什麼情況之下是可以打不能打你不能說每一次只要問到好像你比較難回答問題就說我們做到但是不告訴你"},{"start":12354.11,"end":12372.905,"text":"第一集的原則當然是要堅守的可是有關這些戰術還有武器使用我沒有要問到那麼細我沒有要問到那麼細我沒有要問到那麼細我們現在只要問說到底是有沒有辦法保衛大家我沒有要問到說叫你把機密講出來不要動不動這樣子扣人家帽子好像我們在窺探什麼機密一樣我沒有要問機密嘛"},{"start":12377.068,"end":12387.332,"text":"沒有要問機密但是你要告訴大家到底一個原則在哪裡嘛你現在原則就是很籠統啊你就是說原則剛才部長已經做了說明了那個原則就太籠統了部長可不可以針對可以講的部分至少講一個讓國人安心的第一點"},{"start":12399.816,"end":12421.081,"text":"如果遭受到外來的武裝攻擊依照聯合國憲章51條規定我們就可以採取武力進行自我防衛的固有權利這第一個第二個我們要進行這個自衛的時候呢自衛反擊的時候我們要合比例的來行使這是第二個第三個各級部隊可以依照突發狀況指示規定賦予的"},{"start":12421.681,"end":12430.93,"text":"授權舉證跟交戰規則有效的來應處這些緊急突發的事件那至於其他的部分呢我想我們並不適合在這邊做公開的說明好 謝謝謝謝我們接下來請李昆城委員上台質詢"},{"start":12451.58,"end":12453.562,"text":"謝謝主席請顧部長請顧部長部長好辛苦了我是最後一位了所以可以輕鬆一點那個請教一下部長"},{"start":12469.739,"end":12486.936,"text":"這個美國的戰爭部他在日前有公布了一個2026的國防戰略的報告這報告您有看過了嗎我想不管是國家安全戰略或者是國防戰略都是我們要密切關注的一個事項"},{"start":12488.8,"end":12512.794,"text":"他的重點就是說防衛美國本土印太地區以實力而非對抗來嚇阻中國那也說提高美國盟友與夥伴的防務的分擔雖然沒有提到台灣不像在國家安全戰略裡面八次提到台灣他在戰爭部這一次的國防戰略裡面沒有提到台灣"},{"start":12513.895,"end":12540.914,"text":"但是他有提到說這個要在第一島鏈建立強有力的巨子型的防禦那台灣位到這個位於這個第一島鏈的中心所以我認為雖然沒有提到台灣但是他提到這個第一島鏈其實大概這個對於台灣來講這個重要性是不言可喻跟委員報告應該是在國家安全戰略是有提到台灣是第一島鏈的關鍵角色是在國防的"},{"start":12541.815,"end":12556.425,"text":"那個戰略報告裡面沒有特別提到台灣但是國防戰略報告是延續國家安全戰略延續而來的所以在國家安全戰略已經明確指出台灣是在第一島連鎮扮演的關鍵角色"},{"start":12557.285,"end":12574.574,"text":"所以在國防安全戰略裡面他特別強調的是說在西太平洋要建構第一島鏈要建構一個整體的一個巨子型的防禦那要跟盟友夥伴來共同強化這個整體的第一島鏈的一個整體的嚇阻能力這是這個國防戰略報告裡面"},{"start":12575.855,"end":12592.311,"text":"一個重點所以他要求所有的盟友都要一起承擔這個責任所以不管是日本不管是菲律賓甚至澳洲等等那也包括韓國等等都要增加國防預算增加自己的這個"},{"start":12593.332,"end":12607.3,"text":"防衛能力然後來形成一個集體的嚇阻來維持印太區域的和平安全與穩定當然重中之重當然是台海區域的和平穩定因為台灣在第一島鏈的整個樞紐的位置然後又站在這個前緣"},{"start":12608.921,"end":12629.278,"text":"所以部長其實你剛才講得很清楚先有國家安全戰略接下來才有戰爭部的國防戰略在國家安全戰略裡面其實台灣的重要性是非常的重要特別提到第一條鏈部長也有提到說盟友要來共同分擔防務的部分我就要請教一下部長"},{"start":12629.818,"end":12655.79,"text":"我們現在的這個軍購的特別條例啊一直遲遲無法通過這個會不會影響到這個美國的這個國家安全戰略裡面台灣在第一島鏈的重要性我想這會傳達一個非常嚴重不好的訊息台灣沒有這會傳達台灣如果這個特別條例一直沒有辦法能夠護衛然後來討論的話我想連護衛都沒辦法護衛的話這個會嚴重影響這個"},{"start":12659.54,"end":12668.814,"text":"我們所有的民主的友盟夥伴對我們有沒有自我懷念的決心感到嚴重的懷疑美國政府會不會懷疑我們"},{"start":12670.785,"end":12697.69,"text":"我想AIT大概都已經做了很多這個表述了我想我就不需要在這裡特別重複我們跟台美之間的軍事交流應該我可以說他在各領域方面都不斷的在強化我們的防衛能力那所以我想我們應該也要快速的要來強化我們的這些新式武器裝備能力"},{"start":12698.87,"end":12724.057,"text":"一個仇共然後人力的一個建制這樣好 那所以剛剛部長有提到說如果這個軍購條例連覆違都沒辦法覆違更不要說審查跟後續這個有沒有辦法通過那我想請教一下部長如果像媒體還有所提到就是說現在國民黨為了這個跟中共那邊有更密切的交流他們打算要求國民黨就是繼續跟他們當時候在組黨"},{"start":12726.498,"end":12745.667,"text":"這個我們的這個潛艦的軍購的運算一樣打算也在程序委員會要一直擋一直擋現在擋8次嘛要擋60幾次他們才滿意那我就要請教部長啦過去那時候在野黨在程序委員會擋後來我們潛艦就買不到了那現在如果在野黨繼續在程序委員會繼續阻擋赴圍的話"},{"start":12748.539,"end":12772.302,"text":"先不要說釋放出來這個美國這個會認為說我們沒有防衛自己的這個決心跟能力那我們所想要購買的美國也同意賣給我們的這些武器未來會買得到嗎因為這禮拜已經是這個會期的最後一週了如果這禮拜一樣沒辦法赴會的話那接下來要拖延的可能時間會拉得更長或許今年也沒辦法通過"},{"start":12773.439,"end":12784.112,"text":"那對於台灣來講 我們想要買的這些武器美國也同意賣給我們這些武器 會不會就買不到了因為這個是從去年 我記得是3月吧"},{"start":12785.255,"end":12803.6,"text":"就已經跟美方不斷地進行討論那在美方同意公售的情況之下我們就軍購的部分來提出這樣的一個特別條例那剛剛站櫃師也提到了這個相關後續如果沒有辦法通過的一個嚴重性是不是等一下再說明"},{"start":12804.2,"end":12825.613,"text":"我簡單要說明一下我們現在面對的情況比2004年要嚴重多了2004年那三項軍購潛艦是美國自己不做的他還有不確定性存在P-3C是熱機交接是在那個地方的那時候的I-3採購的國家也相當有限我們現在面對的是所有國家都在提升能力一旦我們錯過這個時間點"},{"start":12828.254,"end":12845.424,"text":"如果說發價書來了之後45天之後我們沒有辦法簽我們整個作業至少得延宕八九個月以上就是重新再來有這種可能性那後面當然就是其他國家提升了國防預算訂單出來之後我們能不能拿得到在什麼時間點拿到完全都是不確定"},{"start":12846.465,"end":12860.366,"text":"那所以未來如果這次軍工條例連覆違都沒辦法覆違那這樣聽下來搞不好整個第一個時間會延宕大概至少一年第二個你想要購買的武器也不一定能夠買得到了"},{"start":12861.369,"end":12883.915,"text":"因為我們原來同意籌購的項目雙方已經就這些項目已經有進行同意包括這些相關的項量提成項量等等那如果發價數過來之後就如同站櫃師所講的我們如果沒有辦法如期完成發價數的簽署那這個整個程序必須要打掉重來的話我們可能會面對"},{"start":12885.888,"end":12908.576,"text":"面對我們這個戰力的提升會受到嚴重的延宕那這個我看不只是這樣主要是美國對我們有沒有自我防衛能力的決心還有不只是美國包括我們所有的民族友盟夥伴我想都會有一個嚴重的問號產生那你有聽說民眾黨今天他們有自己要提出一個他們的軍購特別條例的版本嗎"},{"start":12910.202,"end":12938.569,"text":"我想如果有任何意見我覺得在我們的行政院版所提出的這個條例本身我們可以來進行討論嗎如果有任何的修改或怎麼樣各黨團都可以提出意見嗎那我還是強調就是說就盡量能夠盡快附委然後我們在委員會做就這個部分來進行審查那如果有任何的意見我們都可以來進行討論"},{"start":12939.369,"end":12963.836,"text":"所以有一種情況是有可能包含院版的跟民眾黨的版本一起赴委有這種可能性嗎我們整個軍購預算是一個整體性的規劃我們也做過精密專報我想很多委員都已經了解相關的內容就整體的規劃我想都還比如說軍購的部分有涉及美方他同盟意賣"},{"start":12964.856,"end":12991.751,"text":"那我們還有根據我們的依照敵情威脅跟我們的防衛作戰的一個需求我們提出相關的這些商購跟自治的項目這些都經過整體考量那具體的項目各位委員不管朝野有任何意見我們都可以來討論所以部長的意思就是說其實你們這個因為之前我也問過了這個條例你們準備很久的時間包含後面的預算大概也不是說這個關在房間裡面兩天就能夠寫出來的吧"},{"start":12993.953,"end":13013.219,"text":"我們是花了很多時間好啦 這個剩下最後一週啦我其實沒有抱有任何期望但是我對於剛剛部長所提到的認為我是覺得說那對於如果這樣子下去的話美國真的會懷疑台灣防衛自己決心的能力啦好 謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":13015.179,"end":13019.523,"text":"謝謝謝謝李委員那因為剛剛聽起來就是說我們針對美國同意軍軍售的部分我想好像是國防部比較不重視如果這個這麼重要的話其實這個部分你把它放在特別預算清清楚楚的我覺得這個可能比較沒有什麼"},{"start":13038.362,"end":13057.242,"text":"所以如果說你們覺得這個非常重要應該不要把它包成一大包把其他可能不是太重要的或不應該放的把它放在一起那應該要讓他釐清的非常清楚因為有很多委員都提到說用比較簡單的方式讓大家知道我們要買門鎖"},{"start":13059.184,"end":13081.675,"text":"我們不是沒有國防預算我們每年都有我們都有門鎖他不管是壞了還是舊了他都有你用薪水就可以馬上買因為他很重要所以我們在年度預算一定就可以支出而不是要去借錢來買門鎖我想這樣大家也很清楚那另外就這個部分嚴當也不是因為"},{"start":13082.875,"end":13109.042,"text":"預算刻意不過在我們的所有的公務預算裡面其實即使還沒有審你還是可以按照去年的所以剛剛提到油料的部分我們油料今年多編了4億可是我們在韌性預算剛剛通過的1100多億裡面我們也有買油料所以當有需求的時候我相信國防部應該知道哪一些輕重環節應該要怎麼樣調度跟因應"},{"start":13111.403,"end":13114.626,"text":"所以不要去誤導很多的一個方向這是我們希望如果需要溝通應該要朝這樣才能夠溝通那另外我們還要今天已經登記諮詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束"},{"start":13129.818,"end":13143.088,"text":"本日會議有黃仁委員 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蘇嘉鴻 蘇紫橋及陳忠義軍委委員恰當議案因處依據立法院職權行使法"},{"start":1997.804,"end":2019.941,"text":"第29條規定基盤今天會講聽會各位專家 學者都是學員 居家 相信一定可以為本院委員提供非常寶貴的意見我們可以"},{"start":2023.61,"end":2043.218,"text":"史記錄 今天各位的個件依供審查本院參考第一修正教授專家 學者 出席委員 政府機關代表"},{"start":2047.057,"end":2053.28,"text":"第一位是整理大學法學系教授兼主任吳主任第二位是東武大學政治學系的謝教授"},{"start":2071.396,"end":2077.18,"text":"洪範化學事務所主席律師洪律師學者專家依出時間到的順序發言每一個發言的時間為百分之百發言的事情有"},{"start":2096.226,"end":2099.629,"text":"我們的定費倒數發言的時間結束前一分鐘會累一箱發言的時間結束會累兩箱第一輪發言結束後如果需要補充說明的時候我們再進行第二輪的發言本議委員會發言請到主席待會定期"},{"start":2125.455,"end":2127.516,"text":"在兩位專家發言後 我們安排一位委員發言每位委員發言的時間有五分鐘現在請專家發言我們按照剛出席的簽約順序"},{"start":2149.043,"end":2156.066,"text":"請專家來發言第一位請真理大學吳主任來發言還有各位在座專家學員大家好這個因為我"},{"start":2174.937,"end":2189.022,"text":"這個之前來立法院光天會大部分都是針對法案提供意見那這個人事的同意案基本上這個我是好像印象中是第一次吧所以沒有什麼經驗啦"},{"start":2191.256,"end":2205.986,"text":"那我先講一下這個也是對立法院這邊抱怨一下就是說這個時間非常首先這一次的中選會的委員team已經延宕了然後再來就是說我上禮拜介紹通知然後我手邊所有的資料包括今天我本來以為今天我坐在桌上應該會有厚厚一疊可能是什麼問卷的意見調查等等"},{"start":2221.457,"end":2239.856,"text":"結果我來看這個是本來我的開會通知然後這個是今天也放在桌子上面的有今天一樣之前寄給我的中選會這些被提名人的一些基本資料然後頂多多了一份"},{"start":2241.894,"end":2261.319,"text":"我上禮拜很趕的時間做出來的point我本來還要有更多結果沒有所以我覺得就是說我先講一下就是說這種容詞人事同意權提名時間已經延宕了沒有錯但是既然要來找我們學者專家來這邊提供意見那基本上這個資料實在是我覺得實在是很欠缺"},{"start":2264.868,"end":2273.65,"text":"我也不知道 立法院這邊如果手邊的資料會不會比我們更多如果只是這樣的話 我覺得這種的人是同意 我覺得真的是"},{"start":2274.534,"end":2294.491,"text":"非常的不妥適 這個時間實在是太緊促了好 那我趕快 因為時間只有8分鐘我光抱怨的話 我就花了2分鐘所以我先講一下 就是說因為我是第一次來參與人事同意權的提供意見我就想一下 中選會的委員該有什麼樣的特質好 那我目前我看一下"},{"start":2302.543,"end":2307.887,"text":"在講這個大概只有中學院主持法第三條第四項這有列的那他的這個法條裡面講說他的這個要具有法證相關學士經驗及公正人士那我覺得就法證相關學士至少我"},{"start":2321.784,"end":2332.726,"text":"我看了這一本相關的這個七個被提名人他們在法政方面的學養或者是實務經驗都非常的豐富也非常的優秀然後我看了這一本以後這個我甚至還要把它貼標籤我可能是當老師當習慣了然後期末剛結束我好像在改題偶遲差沒有把分數打上去而已學養非常 而且我才發現到竟然我有點懂得藏文這個讓我眼睛為之一亮"},{"start":2350.905,"end":2373.483,"text":"那所以呢這個學養的部分我覺得大概沒有什麼問題啦法政專業這個大概七個人我覺得都沒有問題但現在問題來了那我怎麼知道他會有獨立或者是中立性呢那我也不知道該提供什麼意見所以我也問了AI然後AI我試了幾個AI大概因為AI是人類養出來的"},{"start":2374.924,"end":2379.185,"text":"所以我們人類怎麼想我覺得這個AI現在也慢慢有一點怎麼講有一點像人類一樣那一種比較自視性 官方性的發言他就列了這幾個我整理一下大概都是這樣然後結果這個其中他雖然列的都一樣跟這個法療沒有什麼太大差別所以我覺得AI慢慢也會養成非常的世故也會見什麼人你問他什麼他就給你自私的回答"},{"start":2403.206,"end":2420.568,"text":"不過他有提到獨立跟中立性是最重要最重要的關鍵那現在問題是我怎麼在這個有限的資料裡面我怎麼知道這七個被庭們在未來他們在執行那個中選會相關的事務的時候能夠保持獨立公正性呢"},{"start":2421.673,"end":2448.036,"text":"所以在這種情況有限我也不知道該怎麼提意見不過這七個委員沒有辦法很仔細的去了解到這些七個被提名他們如何保持所謂的獨立或中立性但是至少看一下他們所提七個被提名他們所提的這個類似有點像學生報告的東西我就看 只看兩個部分"},{"start":2449.747,"end":2473.18,"text":"自我期許 包括還有重大政策因為也有可能 尤其是這個自我期許包括雖然有點大部分我看七個也都有一點自視化宣示性的那種理念的宣達不過我至少可以看他對重大政策議題的看法到底他怎麼看待多多少少看他怎麼去看待他被提名這件事"},{"start":2473.928,"end":2497.743,"text":"所以我大概就把七個被提名人的這兩個部分就是第八跟第九項第八是自我期許與報復第九是推動重大議題一個一個把它做檢視來看一下他到底該看待這個問題的時候怎麼想法那第一位就是主委的被提名人"},{"start":2499.267,"end":2523.465,"text":"這個可能是這個地位被提名人可能是也跟我一樣教授當久了所以在這個部分都是原則性的宣示比較像是那種課堂上那種民主理論的講師所以這個部分我是覺得跟我學生在教報告一樣都比較比較宣示性我看不出來有什麼特別的地方沒有亮點"},{"start":2524.608,"end":2553.498,"text":"然後再來就是對於這個推斷重大政策那目前大家比較關心的這個選舉罷免這個部分大概就是兩個主題不在己投票跟公投綁大選那但是呢他有提到這兩個但是呢他他到底要怎麼對這兩個的看法事實上他也沒有提出具體的意見所以如果以我的學生來講我會覺得這個就是一個比較現實性的用語我看不出來說他對於這個"},{"start":2554.957,"end":2563.465,"text":"這個這麼重大的議題他到底他的想法是什麼那當然我也可以講就一個要被提名是一個主委來講他的"},{"start":2565.356,"end":2582.1,"text":"他這個身份特殊所以他也可能這樣講然後第二位是有關這個副主委的這個部分那他倒是有提到他就定位在輔佐的角色那他也提到就是說這個決策過程他要說要降低決策跟法律風險這個部分倒是蠻符合什麼"},{"start":2584.941,"end":2609.61,"text":"他這個副主委的身份只是說對中大政策基本上也沒有太多琢磨那再來呢後面幾位結果我沒有講到我講到第三位就已經快結束了所以我簡單的講一下那後面這幾位呢基本上我發現到都有比前面兩位前面兩位一直在推動中大政策我不曉得是不是因為他們是"},{"start":2610.33,"end":2628.765,"text":"委員的關係 所以呢基本上他們好像比較勇於去提出這個公投綁大選跟不在籍投票的問題比方說幾乎都三四五 幾乎都有那有關這個不在籍投票 當然今天下午好像有一堂公聽會就是提這個我是覺得這個不在籍 因為關係到我們這個選舉權 憲法保保障的這個"},{"start":2634.588,"end":2642.113,"text":"這個有關選舉前的這個實踐所以我覺得至少就後面四位相對來講比前面兩位在針對這個問題有比較多的這個琢磨然後至於說公投綁大選這個就稍微少一點好 那因為我的時間也到了所以我稍微提一下我是覺得就是說我還是建議因為我手邊也有那個台灣民眾黨提供給我的這個問卷"},{"start":2664.076,"end":2667.44,"text":"總共有10個提問這個我看一下這個就問得比較細了但是這個問得比較細那現在問題就是說為什麼只有一個黨提出而且呢我不知道立法院這邊是不是未來在針對這類問題的時候能夠呢由立法院這邊每一個人都發問卷不管是"},{"start":2683.679,"end":2692.182,"text":"像中選會提名或者是大法官的提名我覺得類似的提名都一樣這種準司法機關我覺得都應該提問而且要提的像民政黨這些仔細當然你說這些問題會不會實問虛答那我覺得不管至少你可以問那他答的方式我們可以由他被提名人答的對這個問題他答的具不具體可以看出他的一個很重要的態度所以我最後的結語是說這個優秀的學經理不必然保證公正性"},{"start":2713.63,"end":2738.124,"text":"豐富的實務經驗也不必然保證中立性那很有可能這些被提名不管是同意或不同意都是政治最後都是政治妥協的結果所以我最後的結論還是希望這七個提名如果你們立法院同意的話那一定要保持獨立客觀性這個是我今天最後對這個七位被提名的一個期許也是期待我想不僅是我應該是全民的期許跟期待謝謝"},{"start":2740.565,"end":2764.142,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝我們的主任在這裡要補充一個主任剛才說有接到民眾黨的問卷他在裡面三黨都有可能是不是沒有剛才另外兩黨沒有傳給你 也沒有提給你"},{"start":2765.023,"end":2771.125,"text":"是否要補貼,原則上三檔都有做問卷好,沒關係,我先來補充一下因為我怕大家都希望如果問題退出來讓這個委員更好地去了解這個臨時案,感謝你們的"},{"start":2791.243,"end":2798.008,"text":"把這個時間來,我們這裡第二位,我們的謝教授不要緊,時間慢一點,讓你在這裡說不要緊,抱歉,抱歉"},{"start":2817.318,"end":2830.173,"text":"伊翁的那個公聽會都是主席先請行政部門先對這個案 表示一些意見我們這裡進一步跟他請教今天一開始就一開始來向這裡發表"},{"start":2835.27,"end":2842.313,"text":"因為這個問題 我在這幾個星期有跟我們的單位問過因為想說今天要怎麼去工廠處理的時候因為整間來賓"},{"start":2857.238,"end":2875.343,"text":"他們總省會沒有報告 最主要今天的工廠會是要聽他們專家的意見這樣 跟你有這些意見的時候我們會記載 叫他們要更詳細 更了解不像你說的 這樣也不對啦要他們提出 跟你來問 會比較詳細還有可以的臨時案 更好"},{"start":2887.386,"end":2908.995,"text":"因為這是由行政部門先提出候選人所以行政部門的立場是什麼他們應該先表示一點高見是不是可以做一個變更因為你說的問題會在社會裡面"},{"start":2914.963,"end":2939.214,"text":"領一座會做參考感謝你佈局的意見謝謝各位類企的官員各位協助專家各位媒體朋友今天這個重要的人事案那我個人的淺見可以分幾點那第一點"},{"start":2941.175,"end":2961.29,"text":"就是執政黨在提名的過程 剛剛吳教授已經提到有點延宕了那執政黨提出 行政部門提出之後我看了媒體充分的瞭解立法院的執政黨團它表示的一些態度不清楚"},{"start":2962.267,"end":2988.625,"text":"那這就形成到底執政黨的態度是什麼對這些候選的態度是什麼有點是批把半遮面了所以讓人看得 讓全國民眾看得摩薩薩那這一點當然待會如果有機會也請行政部門做一點解釋的所以才讓這一次被提名的主委他講說他不計悔遇 不辭辛勞滿悲壯的"},{"start":2991.192,"end":3013.522,"text":"那我們想看看整體行政部門執政跟立法部門他們的看法這是第一點第二點我們這些案子我們看看國外的一個案例他山之死可以公錯我們回顧美國他的獨立機關的重要的我把它列了11項這11項當中有8項大概8項的狀況"},{"start":3019.81,"end":3038.019,"text":"大概成立在1913年所謂美國進步主義時期跟所謂的戰後冷戰國際對壘的時期跟所謂的國際環保跟所謂的這些經典政治出現弊端的時候歷史也證明歷史也證明給美國社會一個有為的總統"},{"start":3041.641,"end":3067.042,"text":"他不攬權 不擴權他設立獨立機關最後歷史給他的是美名所以魏有信 羅師傅在歷史上都得到美名我的意思是說不管行政部門 立法部門對這種獨立機關提完名 審查完 通過與否之後就不應該再干預了這是他山之死我們再看下一個"},{"start":3069.324,"end":3089.121,"text":"所以這整個怎麼樣讓整個進步的法律觀念 憲政觀念能夠也在我們本土生根第三個我們從這一波的一個被提名的自尊跟期許剛剛也提到 剛剛學者也提到 我們希望選舉"},{"start":3091.121,"end":3105.612,"text":"他是一個選舉機關他是一個慘婆但是我們回顧過去有許多選委會的人他本身好像也扮演什麼好像也扮演球賽的球員一樣那這樣的狀況跟我們的整個社會的期許是有距離的所以怎麼樣把你們的承諾能夠未來一段時間能夠真正能夠非常落實的"},{"start":3121.729,"end":3137.262,"text":"我另外也看到了這一次的七位不管是主委跟委員他們比較多的是強調正面的表述一些比較選舉當中過去我們有將近80年的選舉從1949年到現在有將近80年的這80年的選舉的一些弊病選舉的爭議甚至謠言當中的會選問題中選會的委員有沒有提出一些"},{"start":3151.584,"end":3170.971,"text":"纠正的看法或者未来改善的看法我想选民眼睛都在看当然我们也希望常委委员把关所以我也举一个例子日本殖民台湾51年左右他做了七次国事调查"},{"start":3172.73,"end":3198.65,"text":"他最近也在整理過去他所謂的半民主其實是有點是假自治的提名的州 縣 莊一些諮詢委員他都有辦法把它整理出來各位你去查查看現在我們民國39年到大概民國70年左右的地方選舉的資料在所有網站上找不到這是我們行政部門應該未來要努力的地方"},{"start":3201.328,"end":3221.252,"text":"另外啊我一直覺得柏拉圖的話語可以提供給我們政治人物做參考人的靈魂裡面有三種重要的元素理性氣魄跟慾望怎麼樣讓特別是這種獨立委員會怎麼樣讓理性能夠駕馭慾望跟氣魄讓這一頭馬車這個你看這個馬車的兩匹馬有白馬有黑馬人性有許多弱點這個弱點怎麼樣讓"},{"start":3230.649,"end":3250.556,"text":"在選委會的過程當中能夠公正執法讓這個選舉的產婆生出一個漂亮的嬰兒而不是語言常常講到的在幾個爛蘋果當中挑一個比較不爛的如果我們的政治是這樣的話那多少年我們在炎帝踏步"},{"start":3253.018,"end":3279.695,"text":"我另外举几个两个那个所谓的过去中选会的委员的例子来提供给大家相互共勉第一个是我在就学的时候东吴大学的校长端木凯在大陆实际就是赫赫有名的大律师甚至他担任国家总动员会议的秘书长老讲很多事情都要跟他从法律面来请教到台湾来之后他不做官"},{"start":3280.458,"end":3295.053,"text":"但是1980年面臨了要解嚴前夕蔣經國請他當委員不是主委請他當中選會的委員我找了一張歷史照片各位可以看看蔣經國跟端木凱講話的那個行為態度"},{"start":3298.82,"end":3315.614,"text":"那真的是大家非常的平等大家非常尊重專家的那個角度裡面而不是過去的官員好像要賣最高所謂的乘風的命我想我們的政治文化應該朝這一步去發展"},{"start":3319.281,"end":3347.132,"text":"那這是他獨立超然的行使他的委員的我另外比較詳細還有包括他的那個任用的聘書包括他表現很好之後行政院長給他的一個獎狀另外一位是中選會的當過主委的黃思成我在這裡要特別強調他的是他不擋不派公私分明然後他是倫理道德公平正義作為他一生從政的一個真言"},{"start":3348.237,"end":3373.881,"text":"他在治理彰化縣的時候可以用道德來制憲就會可以往前查媒體上的報導道德如果沒有在一個政治人物的身上看到的話那under table的東西有多少是可能見不得人的最後我要提到的是說近兩年來憲政紛爭非常的多國政在原地踏步"},{"start":3374.793,"end":3399.506,"text":"那今天好不容易行政院有徵詢各個黨派提出了按照選罷法裡面的應該按政黨比例的原則來提名候選人這一點做到朝野好像開始要在大院裡面要邁開一個和平的橄欖枝所以我們希望這一屆的從政人員"},{"start":3400.646,"end":3415.706,"text":"能夠未來能夠不忘初心的身在宮門好修行用他們的專業公正超能立場完美的行使職權做出復國利民的一個所謂的選務工作"},{"start":3417.133,"end":3442.944,"text":"真的我們國家有太多事情要做的但是這些選舉負面消息從選完那一天一直到下一棒可能還有四年每天你看媒體相當多的報紙充斥的選舉新聞但是我們國家還沒有其他重大的事情需要解決嗎有這麼重要要每天搞選舉嗎這是我們當前的政治文化請教各位 謝謝"},{"start":3445.892,"end":3474.128,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝謝教授我們現在邁政委員主席各位先進 各位親愛的家人 大家好"},{"start":3475.234,"end":3494.683,"text":"我今天代表台灣民眾黨 歡迎大家在百忙之中抽空安排來立法院歷齡指導我要向大家報告 中央選舉委員會是我國最高選務單位 是守護民主制度的關鍵"},{"start":3496.703,"end":3507.412,"text":"憲政機關他的存在不是為任何政黨服務而是對憲法與人民負責台灣民眾黨的立場"},{"start":3508.888,"end":3526.875,"text":"一向很清楚依法依職權嚴格審查但不為反對而反對我們要的是制度正常運作而不是政治對立消耗國家依中選會"},{"start":3529.083,"end":3543.516,"text":"中央選舉委員會的組織法行政院本應於委員任期滿前三個月完全提名確保選務機關不中斷 不失能"},{"start":3544.795,"end":3559.157,"text":"然而實際上提名長期延宕導致立法院無法依法行使審查權這不是程序殺資而是對制度的不負責任"},{"start":3559.918,"end":3579.711,"text":"民主制度不能靠臨時補救更不能靠政治算計撐場面更重要的是中選會的核心價值在於政治立場與制度信任過去社會之所以產生疑慮不是因為立場不同而是因為分布關鍵政策決策讓人民感受到參政權的"},{"start":3592.039,"end":3606.785,"text":"基礎性限速制度標準卻欺詐一致性的可預期性對人民而言是嚴重的警訊"},{"start":3608.84,"end":3634.898,"text":"面對新的一屆委員提名名單台灣民眾黨不看誰推薦只問一句進入中選會後能不能放棄政黨只效忠憲法與人民中選會委員不是政治角色而是制度的守門人必須在高度的政治張力下"},{"start":3635.899,"end":3661.179,"text":"乃能做出公平可收檢驗的裁員因此我們將以三個原則嚴格把關是否真正的理解真實實踐中選會的獨立定位是否堅守人民參政選不讓程序成為沒收人民的工具"},{"start":3662.381,"end":3686.551,"text":"是否支持制度化的治理建立清楚穩定可預期的選務標準民主不是靠口號維持而是靠制度落實台灣民眾黨會為事任人選負責任的支持但對不符合中立與專業的期待"},{"start":3689.571,"end":3719.231,"text":"也會勇敢說不這不是對抗而是人民期待已久國家正常需要監督與領導謝謝主席與各位專家的聆聽我們一起努力為我們的台灣回到正常的運作讓人民安居樂業還是我們一起守護這個國家的制度謝謝大家"},{"start":3720.74,"end":3724.204,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝麥正委員我們這裡洪律師不好意思 他剛才愛請你結果拍到不對"},{"start":3738.778,"end":3757.791,"text":"不好意思 謝謝主席 各位財政委員 各位縣長 大家早安 大家好首先要先說一個很謙秀 也很抱歉雖然沒有人叫我在這裡愛用北京話但是我從小的時候 其實講台語是會發聲的所以很多天背 一樣很遺憾 也很抱歉我沒聽英語說我國語不好所以待會我的發言有時候"},{"start":3767.352,"end":3777.781,"text":"不一定專程可以用台語 這是首先要說一個很謙虛也很抱歉今天其實剛才我聽吳教授說他第一次參加提名人的講聽會我是比較有經驗 但是這個經驗沒說很好我第一次來講聽會的時候 實際上是第一次大館提名的時候"},{"start":3791.724,"end":3812.057,"text":"我想要從這裡開始說起就是說我們如果觀察我們立法院為大官為NCC一直到現在所謂的需要獨立專業中立性的被提名或者是同意任命的程序中選會不會是第一次"},{"start":3813.069,"end":3842.338,"text":"但是很遺憾的在整個過程當中這也是我相信是民間的精髓環絡很多的擔憂就是在一路政治這樣子高度的對立對抗的情況之下整個包含公聽會的審查程序包含同意權跟任命權的行使的程序其實都因為這樣子從這個量變也就是說從全部的否決或者是部分的否決事實上我剛舉的例子都是全部的否決"},{"start":3843.464,"end":3871.178,"text":"那產生質變這所謂的質變是什麼就是說剛才吳教授提到了譬如說像公聽會淪為形式譬如說提名的延宕我認為他的本質其實都源自於同一件事情也就是說在這個政治高度對立之下關於提名權跟同意權的形式已經失去了他的本質那這也是為什麼我們在這邊可能要先發布幾個憂心或者說先這個表現幾個憂心的原因 第一點就是說"},{"start":3872.516,"end":3889.388,"text":"如果說我們的公聽會言者尊尊 聽者渺渺我會覺得我定位在這個落關的提名的時候其實我說得也有點苦口或者語重心長那時候我說我們的提名人或被提名的人"},{"start":3891.694,"end":3920.055,"text":"並不是像這個部分委員所提到說全部都是這個所謂的綠油油全部都是只為了哪一邊在講話事實上他們的專業他們的這個我不敢說每一位我不敢說每一位但是我相信有非常多數在他的專業在他的這個一路以來的這個表現對於人權民主法治的堅持之上其實是有目共睹的那這個在專業學群其實也有相當的豐平的"},{"start":3920.675,"end":3944.994,"text":"但是他的結果其實是就是全部被一概的抹殺那這個情況其實大家會看在眼裡的那再一次的我們在NCC其實也看到同樣的情況就是裡面有非常多學者其實大家甚至可以說他們為了有些人可能為了某一些這個政黨其實也是做了不少的事情但是同樣的被封殺"},{"start":3946.502,"end":3967.601,"text":"那這種情況其實從結果來看又再一次的顯現說不管你進行了公聽會不管為了他們這個過去做了多少努力最後在這樣朝野的對立的情況之下仍然被封殺那所以這一次的這個中選會當然剛才其實像幾位教授都對個別的提名人然後有進入這個進入這個具體的說明但是我覺得"},{"start":3968.448,"end":3991.389,"text":"恐怕要在一開始要先講就是說對於整個目前我們所有的人事提名跟任命的這個過程導致審查機制可能變成譬如說政黨我們其實在很多的大法官解釋都已經提到所謂的人事同意權跟提名權不能夠按照政黨比例也不應該成為政黨配合的工具但是"},{"start":3991.929,"end":4008.678,"text":"如果說這一套的審查機制一路這樣子這個走下來我們會有這樣子的擔心就是本來不應該成為政黨比例或者是政黨配合的這個工具的最後會變成這樣子的操作的結果那其次我們也想要這個我這邊也想要提一個就是說"},{"start":4010.017,"end":4022.715,"text":"剛才提到說中選會或許是一個感染值是一個出發點這一點我同意就是各位其實可能這個立委助攻日後在審查或者在表決的時候可能要特別注意就是"},{"start":4023.297,"end":4050.67,"text":"這一屆的中學會其實會處理非常多的重要的議題那台灣的選舉一直到今天為止我們從過去比如說會因為關燈然後突然這個選舉結果大變一直到今天為止不管各個陣營雖然在我們在上一次的這個總統大選當中也有所謂的作票或者是這個後面被證實是假訊息的相關的傳聞但是大家可以知道不管在台灣的民主或者選舉過程會怎麼往前走"},{"start":4051.19,"end":4072.595,"text":"一個公正被大家可以信賴的選舉這件事情是一個根本的基礎那所以從這個角度來看的話我們這一屆的這個總選會委員在當選在這個如果能夠順利獲得同意任命的情況之下基本上會至少處理一次的地方大選跟一次的中央大選那如果說這個"},{"start":4074.995,"end":4101.046,"text":"預設兩個情況一個是說如果說這一次是像過去的大法官或NCC一樣是全部被不同意的情況之下那當然而然我們會擔心的就是說可以可能被面臨的批評就是說現在這一屆的中選會委員都是沒有經過目前的這個立法院行使過同意權的委員從而從這個角度來想要質疑"},{"start":4101.513,"end":4130.954,"text":"可能進行選舉的這個中立性或者是說客觀性的這個挑戰那另外一個就是說另外一個可能性就是說如果說這一次因為剛才有提到有先經過政黨的徵詢那所以最後投票的結果變成是特定政黨經過徵詢提過的才會同意那沒有經過這個譬如說沒有經過這個立法院的在野黨這個徵詢或同意或推薦的就一概全部不同意的話"},{"start":4131.633,"end":4157.774,"text":"那其實這個也會更進一步的強化或者說可能進一步的讓民眾有這樣的認知就是說中選會的委員其實是跟政黨比例有關係或者說跟他的政黨推薦有關係那這跟我們在這個中選會組織法當中一再要求中選會其實必須要政治中立那特定政黨的比例不能夠超過一定的比例這樣的要求其實是會相互違背的"},{"start":4158.354,"end":4173.435,"text":"所以從這兩個角度出發都會非常懇請大院在做立法剛才我也聽到這個麥委員提到他提到說這個對於這個所謂的不符合中立或專業的委員他們會的這個被提名的會嚴格審查"},{"start":4173.975,"end":4201.214,"text":"但是我在這邊再一次的希望能夠卑微的這個提出請求就是說所謂的不符合不要只是用所謂的反對票來提出上一次我在這個大法官這個公聽會的被提名人的公聽會當中我也曾經做過同樣的呼籲或建議也就是說如果真的不符合那請提出一位他願意點頭接受而且能夠被社會所公平的"},{"start":4201.73,"end":4230.042,"text":"所謂的替代人選來供公眾檢驗剛才我們提到這個提名被延宕其實有一個很大的理由就是說在現在的政治環境之下確實已經達到某些人所說的在一般民間社會的人才不願意進到公部門服務的這樣子的憂慮跟擔心那我們希望中選會的這個這個提名跟同意程序能夠作為第一次能夠扭轉這個現象讓我們的民間的人才能夠進一步的願意進到公部門的這個開始 謝謝"},{"start":4235.386,"end":4240.291,"text":"謝謝我們感謝洪律師我們家賴律師"},{"start":4253.131,"end":4267.772,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進我們今天就這個中選會被提名人由內政委員會進行投票審查前的公聽會"},{"start":4269.094,"end":4286.114,"text":"那我注意到那个我们的游迎龙主委那他在先前就在媒体上就各界非常关心的不再急投票的问题那游主委有表达他的立场是"},{"start":4287.221,"end":4309.768,"text":"樂觀其成 但要非常謹慎我就由組委所講到的非常謹慎我就我自己過去的一些參與經驗我所知道的跟各位委員 各位專家做一個報告"},{"start":4313.846,"end":4326.154,"text":"我自己在2004年那一次應該是我國選舉史上最大的選舉爭議跟最大的"},{"start":4329.215,"end":4340.998,"text":"選舉訴訟那個選舉訴訟那一年2004年因為連戰跟宋楚瑜分別提起了當選無效之訴跟選舉無效之訴那個時候我曾經擔任選舉無效之訴中選會的訴訟代理人根據我的觀察確實在如果"},{"start":4354.122,"end":4380.479,"text":"我國要採取不在籍投票而且我要推動這個不在籍投票制度的話可能真的要非常慎重第一點就是現在目前我們大院立法院有的不在籍投票的草案為了要去除人民的疑慮都會強調說沒有採取電子投票"},{"start":4382.381,"end":4404.777,"text":"也沒有採取通信投票而是採取實體的選票的移轉讓人民可以更方便的就近投票這個立場你可以說是對的是謹慎的但是他可能也忽略了另外一面的問題"},{"start":4408.186,"end":4431.14,"text":"我稍微做點解釋不採取電子投票的原因很簡單因為大家擔心電子投票可能會有系統性舞弊誰能夠操縱電子系統誰就可能掌握最終的結果事實上國外電子投票有舞弊的也不是沒有發生過不採取"},{"start":4435.612,"end":4460.725,"text":"通訊投票郵寄選票中選會或地方選委會把選票郵寄到選舉人家中然後選舉人投完票再寄到選委會這也有道理不採取這個方法最擔心的是什麼當事人投票的爭議就是你把票宣選了以後封禁信封"},{"start":4461.963,"end":4487.736,"text":"寄給中選會這個最後這個人是不是真的是本人就是中選會沒有辦法派一個人在家中裝一個監視器抬頭確認是本人所以不管中國國民黨的版本或民眾黨的版本在跨出這一步的時候都很謹慎所以我們不要電子投票不要通信投票但是"},{"start":4489.06,"end":4508.651,"text":"因為這樣就選擇了說我們要移轉投票但是如果真的照由主委的意見要非常謹慎的話那我提醒大家來思考我們真的要非常謹慎面對這個問題第一個你真的去找一下大部分不在籍投票的推動不在籍投票國家"},{"start":4509.871,"end":4530.858,"text":"很多都是用通信投票很多都是用电子投票当你不要通信投票又不要电子投票的时候事实上你会面对一个非常庞大的选务作业就是你要把那么多的选票将近9000种从1万多个投开票所"},{"start":4531.664,"end":4560.162,"text":"移轉到另外一萬多個投開票所然後這中間不能出錯那他所需要的行政成本跟你必須逐一確認的事情那選舉又要防止舞弊而且這個防止舞弊不只是說我就是我心中坦蕩蕩我沒有舞弊而必須做到就是說那個外觀讓大家"},{"start":4560.862,"end":4586.409,"text":"都可以取信說這樣做不可能舞弊那他所需要的投入的成本會是一個非常大的行政成本我不敢說一定做不到但是我們可能要問說這一屆的中選會委員準備好了沒有要做那麼大規模的全面不在籍投票還是要從現在就是大院已經通過的"},{"start":4588.149,"end":4612.395,"text":"原住民 平地原住民 山地原住民大概三十幾萬 三四十萬人兩種選票的不在籍投票來逐步嘗試了過以後然後再來檢討下一步可以怎麼走會不會這是一個方法這個是也許游教授或者是各位委員可以思考的問題"},{"start":4614.229,"end":4621.92,"text":"我要特別講台灣的選舉事實上你跟其他的國家來選舉來比我們的"},{"start":4624.016,"end":4648.924,"text":"謹慎程度是優於其他國家的但是換一個角度我們其實是等於是在要求一個零瑕疵的選舉任何的選舉瑕疵都會在高度政治動員中被放大我們去看1986年菲律賓的總統大選最高法院最後的裁定是哪幾個投開票哪幾個票箱要開票"},{"start":4649.4,"end":4678.014,"text":"拿幾個投票箱不開票因為他覺得那個過程可能已經被污染了已經不見得是公正了這種東西你沒有辦法想像搬到台灣來啦台灣的選舉一定是做到每一張票都要開票每一張票都要確認那我以下就讓我講兩件事情是非常選舉實務的事情但是當你把他拉到全面不在籍投票了以後"},{"start":4678.574,"end":4706.445,"text":"是会非常困难的我说选举实务的问题是我记得在前几个礼拜相关场合里面我提到就选务人员而言他开完票计票了以后他最后要完成一个铁律就是一个如果用会计上来讲的话我们说借贷要均衡那用选票来看的话简单讲就是一号加二号加三号加四号所有的有效票"},{"start":4707.421,"end":4718.817,"text":"加所有的無效票加所有的已領未投票必須等於選舉人名冊的領票數一票都不能少"},{"start":4719.861,"end":4737.178,"text":"少了你講說為什麼少了你要交代為什麼是不是有人選舉人沒有來投票然後選務人員偷偷塞一張票到票箱裡面一票都不能少然後你再加上用餘票數必須等於該選區的發票數"},{"start":4743.524,"end":4758.754,"text":"那事實上你如果說你要做九千多將近九千個等式足以這個比對一萬多個牌料投開票數這絕對做不完的抱歉給我一分鐘我再講一件事情不只是這樣選舉訴訟還要對到什麼對到選舉人名冊"},{"start":4763.938,"end":4784.372,"text":"選舉人名冊 我們可以有簽章 可以蓋印章也可以蓋指印 蓋指印要有兩個人選主委跟監察員的會簽簽章證明說這個人真的是親手蓋指印下去的"},{"start":4785.768,"end":4794.74,"text":"在那次在選舉訴訟裡面我們的選舉大家會挑剔到什麼程度當時聯送連戰陣營就說你很多即使點選舉人名冊人數點對了他說簽章與姓名不符"},{"start":4802.473,"end":4824.133,"text":"簽章選舉人是張三蓋的章不是張三怎麼會這樣呢我們那時候就是看選舉人名冊我們的法院真的也很挑剔簽章與姓名不符如果真的是章弄錯了這可能有問題但是我們有些情況比如說"},{"start":4825.546,"end":4845.247,"text":"我們很多就是一定年紀的長輩比如說黃鵝草頭黃女字旁的鵝黃鵝他的章可能是黃阿鵝黃氏阿鵝千章與姓名不符那我用這個例子是要跟大家講說"},{"start":4847.284,"end":4859.231,"text":"臺灣幾十年來大家已經形成了選務必須零瑕疵的概念連我剛剛講的那個黃阿兒黃氏阿兒黃兒法院都認為這個叫做簽章與姓名不符"},{"start":4860.821,"end":4878.816,"text":"那用這個標準大家去想一下真的好像我們下午還會有個公聽會多聽聽看選務人員怎麼講這樣的大規模的全面不在籍投票真的符合我們游盈隆主委所說的要非常慎重嗎謝謝謝謝我們感謝賴律師我們家劉教授"},{"start":4899.793,"end":4924.276,"text":"我們敬愛主席 我們各位在床的立委還有各位先進好朋友 大家好我是文化大學教授紐澤勛第一次發言今天非常非常榮幸能夠來到立法院針對這個中選會的委員去跟大家做一番腦力激盪我自己是心裡面是覺得非常非常的高興的因為畢竟能夠把自己心裡面的一些相關想法對近來政治局勢的一些相關一些看法"},{"start":4924.816,"end":4941.568,"text":"做一个综合的一个说明跟各位先进就教育各位先进我觉得是非常非常难得的一个机会那我开宗明义跟大家报告一下就是说我认为这一次的一个中选会的一个提名这份的一个名单基本上来讲的话我是希望他能够通过的"},{"start":4942.188,"end":4968.458,"text":"我希望他能夠通過大概有三個原因那第二個面向就是說如果這份名單真的能夠被通過來講的話其實我也有三個期許那我先講三個原因主要來講的話為什麼希望這份中選會的名單能夠通過因為第一個原因就是說裡面非常多的專家學者來說的話他其實都是衣食之選比如說內定的主委的人選游英龍教授在整個民調的一個"},{"start":4969.68,"end":4974.399,"text":"執行面向上面或者是整個的一個社會議題的一個觀察面向上面來講的話"},{"start":4975.458,"end":5003.724,"text":"他確實都有獨到的一個見解而且能夠藉由細膩的一個數據的一個分析去展現社會背後所代表的一些價值意義我覺得這個是難能可貴的那第二位蘇子喬教授其實他在政治學理論或者是選舉理論上面來講的話基本上他是一個獨步江湖的一個領導者那再加上黃文林律師黃文林律師之前也擔任過立委"},{"start":5004.984,"end":5021.677,"text":"那也非常熱心公共事務特別是他的父親是之前有擔任過幾屆的中選會的主委黃石誠黃石誠主委來講的話其實就像剛剛謝教授有特別提到的他一生都是標榜無黨政派"},{"start":5022.518,"end":5049.641,"text":"看事情都能夠跳脫政治的一個框架來看事情看問題那所以來講的話如果今天他的女兒黃文玲也能夠擔任中選會委員來說的話其實我覺得不是為一樁美談這是第一個部分我認為人選的部分絕大多數都是一流的人選一時之選那第二面向來講的話你從這份名單裡面也可以清楚的發現他其實有"},{"start":5050.522,"end":5064.71,"text":"民眾黨推薦或是國民黨推薦也就是有在野黨進行推薦那這份名單來講的話如果能夠採納在野黨推薦的一些相關專業的一些人士來說的話那我們就認為就是說"},{"start":5065.971,"end":5093.132,"text":"在整個平台建構上面能夠有社會多元不同意見的一個反應這個部分除了能夠跟細膩的去進行腦力激盪之外也能夠透過彼此某程度的一個制衡讓人民的權益或是整個選舉的一個公平公正性獲得更大的一個保障我覺得這個部分是我希望這份名單能夠通過的第二個原因那第三個原因我會認為就是說這一次的一個名單"},{"start":5094.073,"end":5121.371,"text":"他如果能够通过来说的话他代表一个朝野和解的一个契机因为毕竟就这次的一个名单里面行政院能够有跨党派的一些委员相关的一些建议来讲的话某种程度是释出了橄榄枝那在释出了橄榄枝展现了一定程度善意的一个情况之下如果在野党在表决的过程中间也能够某程度的去感受到"},{"start":5122.251,"end":5142.327,"text":"行政高層所提出的這樣的一種善意來講的話讓這個整個名單能夠通過來說的話我認為它確實可能是朝野和解的一個起點所以以上是我希望這份名單能夠被通過的一個主要的一個原因那另外面向其實我有三個期許第一個期許就是說"},{"start":5143.167,"end":5170.243,"text":"這份名單它其實容納了在野推薦的一些專業的一些人士那我就期待就是說日後大法官的一個提名或者是NCC的一個提名乃至更日後考試監察委員相關的一些提名來講的話是不是都可以去藉由這樣的一個標準去進行跟在野黨的一個溝通接納在野黨所推薦相關的一些人選因為畢竟如果能夠這樣子做來講的話"},{"start":5171.164,"end":5196.671,"text":"他不但可以去展現好執政高層的一個格局之外還有一句古話他是這樣子講的泰山不讓泥土所以成其大江海不則細流所以就其身意思也就是說能夠展現格局也能夠去體現社會多元的一個力量在同樣的一個平台上面去為國為民做一定程度有效的一個貢獻這是我第一個期許"},{"start":5197.051,"end":5200.332,"text":"那第二個期許來講的話是我會認為就是說這份名單行政高層已經某程度地遞出了善意的一個橄欖枝所以我認為就是說在野陣營應該要做某種程度善意的一個回應那但是呢我會比較貪心地進一步希望"},{"start":5214.716,"end":5237.288,"text":"而執政者 比如說賴總統是不是能夠進一步的去進行朝野和解推動的一個動作比如說可以跟在野黨主席去進行一個不借形式不設立名目也就是說之前以國安簡報為名這樣的一個名目的一個設立我覺得都不用不設前提 不立名目"},{"start":5237.748,"end":5243.329,"text":"不拘形式去跟在野黨主席去進行一個溝通跟對談我認為這樣子來講的話他在整個的一個表示善意的一個部分或是希望能夠體現朝野和解的一個部分來講的話這樣的一個用心在野黨可能更能夠心領神會因為畢竟這個社會真的悶了太久了如果整個的一個政治對峙是非常非常嚴峻的"},{"start":5263.473,"end":5281.85,"text":"整個社會民眾的一個壓力也會非常非常的大那社會上面的一些相關衝突事件或許也有可能會此起彼落那所以我會認為就是說朝野是不是基於這樣的一個原則某種程度的都可以各退一步那最後一個期許來講的話是希望"},{"start":5282.711,"end":5289.793,"text":"朝野的高層政治人物能夠多給我們一些民眾一些激勵跟鼓勵因為大家真的太悶了現在朝野對峙的一個情勢或是國際兩岸緊張的一個情勢包括整個社會的一些事件不斷的頻傳這樣的一個情況之下來講的話其實我們就像是一個壓力鍋瀕臨瀕臨崩盤的一個壓力鍋瀕臨爆炸的一個壓力鍋所以在這樣的一個情況之下我們真的希望"},{"start":5311.678,"end":5329.347,"text":"政治人物朝野的高層政治人物能多給我們民眾一定程度的一些期許一定程度的鼓勵或是一定程度的一個激勵因為畢竟各位可以去看2025年退後到2019年的年度的一個關鍵字去年是罷免的罷"},{"start":5330.347,"end":5333.389,"text":"那前年是貪 在前年的話是缺 在前年的話是漲價的漲在前年是宅在家的宅 在前年的話也就是2020年的話是疫情的疫2019年是亂 那所以民眾的壓力 朝野的高層應該可想而知這是我第三個期許"},{"start":5352.879,"end":5358.72,"text":"那最後昨天大家一定有看到一個非常精彩而且驚心動魄的就是霍諾德他這個極限運動家他徒手然後攀爬101然後達到了最高的一個頂點這就是一個非常激勵人心的一個故事"},{"start":5373.404,"end":5379.448,"text":"這個動作應該很難吧你要攀爬101而且徒手是非常非常困難的一件事情但是我覺得朝野和解應該沒有那麼困難吧霍諾德他靠的是毅力信心堅持勇氣他能夠攀頂這麼困難的事情霍諾德他都做到了"},{"start":5391.614,"end":5410.382,"text":"但是朝野和解我會認為相對的比較容易只要政黨的高層能夠拋棄每次一舉手一投足都要精算到小數點後八位數這樣的一個全謀算計你多用一點點真心用一點點耐心用一點點誠意來說的話我覺得對朝野和解來講它就有水到渠成這樣的一個機會"},{"start":5417.205,"end":5440.195,"text":"霍诺德昨天的一个表现确实激励了所有的台湾的一个民众他给我们上了深深的一课那所以我们也非常期许朝野高层跟政治人物来说的话能够心领神会顺势进行相当程度的朝野和解以上浅见就交给各位如果有相关的一些冒犯还请各位见谅感谢各位谢谢"},{"start":5443.156,"end":5446.886,"text":"謝謝 感謝牛教授 咱家黃教授"},{"start":5459.992,"end":5474.737,"text":"主席好主席各位委員以及在座各位先進早安我是黃仁俊很榮幸能夠受邀參與此次的公聽會在正式發言以前我先做一個簡單的聲明今天的發言只代表我個人不代表我所屬的單位"},{"start":5475.987,"end":5497.53,"text":"以及推薦我的政黨我希望能將自己作為一個憲法學者的使命提供自己的專業意見以及對於中央選舉委員會未來的功能和職責提供給大院作為參考今天我想用這個簡單的十分鐘這個簡短的時間來談兩個主要的問題首先是中央選舉委員會在憲法上應有的功能以及未來的課題"},{"start":5498.431,"end":5506.218,"text":"其次是在數位民主下中央選舉委員會作為執法機關以及獨立機關所應扮演的角色"},{"start":5508.148,"end":5527.196,"text":"從這次的提名名單來看有蠻多位學有專精和富有政治歷練的法政學者和專家他們的研究專長多半橫跨政治學、憲法學和行政學並且在憲政理論和行政實務上都有傑出的表現足以升任中央選舉委員會的職務"},{"start":5528.837,"end":5540.331,"text":"同時亦符合中央選舉委員會組織法第三條第三項本會委員因遴選具有法證相關學士經驗之公正人士擔任委員之中"},{"start":5541.482,"end":5560.675,"text":"同一黨籍不得超過委員總數的三分之一從各提名各提名人所屬的政黨也可以推資 此次的名單是草野政黨 具有共識的亦符合社會期待的草野和諧我個人也非常樂見在這個行政跟"},{"start":5561.355,"end":5574.983,"text":"立法的二元民主中能夠以中選會的提名中選會委員的提名和同意作為一個朝野合作的契機那也為過往的憲政僵局帶來一道和諧的曙光"},{"start":5576.212,"end":5594.983,"text":"畢竟台灣不是獨裁專制的國家在解嚴之後立法委員和總統都需要一定都需要通過定期的選舉來產生無法自行的嚴認正如大法官解釋在4至第499號解釋所言憲法條文中諸如第一條"},{"start":5596.791,"end":5623.983,"text":"所樹立的民主共和國原則第二條國民主權原則第二章保障人民的權利以及有關權利分立與制衡之原則具有本質的重要性亦為憲法整體基本原則之所在基於前述相關規定所形成的自由民主憲政秩序乃憲法賴以純立的基礎凡憲法設置的機關均有遵守的義務也期許各政黨"},{"start":5626.527,"end":5641.158,"text":"我們在國家認同上雖然有分歧但憲法是大家的也是我們的在自由民主憲政的秩序之下由於獨立公正超越黨派的中選會使能貫徹憲法第十七條人民有選舉罷免創制復決之權"},{"start":5643.499,"end":5660.337,"text":"以及第129條所規定的以普通平等直接無記名投票之選舉方法與選舉制度首先我想從以憲法作為起點來談談中選會作為獨立機關在憲法上的功能雖然中選會並非是憲法所設置的機關"},{"start":5661.198,"end":5680.562,"text":"不過人民的政治權利包含選舉罷免創制覆決和公民投票這些權利的行使不僅有賴立法者在選罷法的制度形塑亦需要透過中選會作為選務機關來具體執行通過選舉程序將人民的意志轉化為國家的意志"},{"start":5682.567,"end":5697.962,"text":"從中選會組織法第二條來看中選會的權限 除了選舉罷免公民投票的事務規劃 辦理 指揮監督之外它還涉及了選區的劃分以及政黨候選人競選費用的補貼"},{"start":5700.037,"end":5717.368,"text":"而直接關聯到是憲法上選舉平等原則的核心我們2023年憲法法庭已經對憲法平等原則做出多號判決不論是12年憲判制第11號的選舉幽靈人口案112年憲判制第18號選舉重新計票案以及12年憲裁制第146號的受刑人投票權案都是圍繞憲法"},{"start":5730.253,"end":5752.605,"text":"第16條的選舉權以及公職人員選罷法公職人員選舉罷免法而使得選舉平等權躍上了憲法訴訟的舞台同時中選會亦作為相關機關參與其中未來的中選會也會隨著選舉訴訟跟憲法訴訟的接軌而有著更多的憲法課題需要面對對於"},{"start":5755.14,"end":5762.351,"text":"新任的中選會委員能夠結合自己的憲法或法證專長在此發揮常才我是相當樂見的"},{"start":5764.039,"end":5791.065,"text":"再者 過往的中選會往往基於選政跟選務的二分限縮在辦理選務的行政思維其實選舉制度是無法單純切分選政跟選務的未來的不在籍投票 移轉投票 平埔族原住民選區的劃分應當是可以攜手內政部原委會進行跨部會的法案研究以及草案的提出"},{"start":5791.656,"end":5798.191,"text":"也值得期待未來的中選會委員能夠秉持公正公開公平的原則 格守"},{"start":5799.269,"end":5822.532,"text":"超然獨立的精神自律維護公平競選的秩序其次我想談論的是在數位民主下中央學軍委員會作為執法機關跟獨立機關所扮演的角色人工智慧的崛起不僅改變了台灣人對台積電股價的想像人工智慧同時也進一步操弄著台灣選民的投票行為"},{"start":5823.473,"end":5850.943,"text":"中央選舉委員會不是只是單純印製選舉公報頒發當選證書的獨立機關而是應當在選舉期間附有防範跟中斷不實資訊跟陰謀論的執法機關這一點我們可以說是先天不良又後天失調先天不良的地方是我們不論在瑞典哥德堡的民主多樣性研究所的民主年報或歐洲議會"},{"start":5853.163,"end":5878.975,"text":"這個外來勢力干預歐盟民主程序特別委員會或者稱ING委員會都將台灣評為自由民主國家陣營中受到境外不實資訊攻擊最多的國家後天上呢我們數位中介法又立法為果行政機關各司其職呈現單線作戰使得我們現行對抗資訊操弄的武器"},{"start":5879.655,"end":5894.18,"text":"行政機關只有開記者會新聞成績考跟社會秩序維護法因此我期待未來的中選會上任必須思考在刑法妨礙投票罪章外建立一套行政管制的制度"},{"start":5895.12,"end":5907.01,"text":"例如我們可以藉經歐盟在選舉期間進行源頭打擊可以作為反制假訊息在輿論回應跟行政管制的示範歐盟在選舉期間將干預選舉的言論分為五類針對資訊的油量針對公民投票的能力針對候選人跟政黨人"},{"start":5914.096,"end":5925.302,"text":"針對對於民主的信任以及針對選舉相關的基礎措施而採取了忽視、遏止、淡化、導政的分級回應這些機制是有別於台灣採取惡、假、害的判斷標準歐盟可以更細緻的區分行為者行為內容程度和影響性面對選舉期間的不實言論可以產生一套靈活的反制措施例如事前的快速警報系統"},{"start":5944.052,"end":5970.02,"text":"於情共享和分析中心精準的反制工具箱用以快速反擊導正最後有人說自由不是免費的同樣的民主也不是自動運行的而是我們人民透過一票一票的選舉產生出的民主的選舉不只是政黨的輸贏還需要幕後獨立公正的選務人員以及中選會委員我先報告到這裡 謝謝"},{"start":5973.147,"end":5990.514,"text":"謝謝我們感謝黃教授在今天報告的學者當中我們的教授跟律師阿公很多讓我們可以參考的意見在這裡本學要說中央選舉委員會綜合規劃的張處長跟林書雪的張主任"},{"start":6000.049,"end":6013.376,"text":"跟行政院臨時行政總署的培訓考用處的張專員委員在這個過程當中我認為在你們的角色和這些專門的律師和教授給我們這些議決是不是這個張專委委員"},{"start":6029.49,"end":6045.857,"text":"來提出您的意見因為在這裡面請我們縣政機關委員本署提名作約跟專案核架所提出的意見來請我們張專員的意見"},{"start":6062.395,"end":6084.622,"text":"本來今天是公聽會議應該是以專家學者為主沒有預期說今天會上來不過跟各位委員的意見我首先就是要感謝今天來參會的各位學者 專家 委員還有律師我覺得中選會是我國最重要的民主法治跟人民參與政權的一個機關大家很難想像說沒有中選會的這些委員在的話我們節目工作怎麼去推行所以今天特別感謝今天來參與的這些"},{"start":6086.963,"end":6101.555,"text":"我們的召集人還有那各位委員那剛才跟各位委員提到的一些作業的程序因為我們人事總署負責的就是說選這個整個提名作業的一些一些行政作業的程序那真正的這些遴選應該還是在運裡面那最後的"},{"start":6102.729,"end":6125.36,"text":"決定還是在立法院這邊那我針對程序這邊再說明一下就是說第一個我們那個這回提名的總共有七個人那有六個人是在任期到118年11月2號那其中一名是到116年的11月3號那這是總體是有一個委員辭職的地補的原因那這七名委員因為我們提名人選裡面包含各黨團那各位"},{"start":6125.762,"end":6140.267,"text":"也可以看到這補償團的名單裡面包含中央地方一些經驗的還有草擬都有推薦人選那我想剛才也有孫大學提到這次都是一時之選我想這個大家都是有共識的那另外就是說我們在作業上我們這個"},{"start":6141.667,"end":6162.109,"text":"在12月29號的時候我們是行政院提名到立法院來請立法院去做審查那立法院在1月2號的時候交付委員會去審查那接著進行一個月的期間的審查那這一個月裡面包含今天進行的公聽會然後還有那個2829號會進行審查會那我想說這一個月的期間大概對各位"},{"start":6162.91,"end":6183.276,"text":"可以社會各界看到這些名單可以做充分的去了解跟認識我想在立法院裡面這個審查會也做一個充分的去做審查這一個月過後之後立法院這邊審查會做一個報告出來報告出來之後就會提院會去表決我想院會就是立法院的院會裡面做最後民主的決定以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":6189.122,"end":6198.566,"text":"主席 各位大家好"},{"start":6216.211,"end":6224.237,"text":"那剛才 包括剛才聽到這個這個是專委這邊的 包括還有專校學者 我還是提出幾個問題啦"},{"start":6227.577,"end":6245.678,"text":"首先就是說第一個剛才有提到就是說這一次的這個七個人很明顯的有徵詢各黨三黨的意見這個是蠻明顯的包括我剛才有發現是不是我們學者專載這七個人也是這樣分配的"},{"start":6246.67,"end":6263.181,"text":"可能也是蔡英文賠了 我不知道所以 我在想說那如果這一次這七個這七個真的啦 是這樣的一個情況要通過那是不是可以沿用到未來包括NC 甚至大法官我認為可能我有點質疑因為這個中選會因為它是選舉它是專門處理的是選舉的事務這個是民主原則那它基本上徵詢"},{"start":6274.854,"end":6286.611,"text":"各黨的意見 我覺得這個是應該那可是如果說像大法官我不是說不能徵詢 但是徵詢的對象可能不是只有政黨喔"},{"start":6288.065,"end":6307.55,"text":"因為大法官他這個名稱叫做大喔這個在美國地方最高法院的法官他是Justice大寫正義所以這個模式是不是可以應用到其他的模式我是覺得有點誤號而且更重要的是說如果這種藉由這種我還是這裡就面臨一個問題就是說未來像這種包括這個行政院裡面的這個獨立的機關"},{"start":6315.137,"end":6335.234,"text":"那到底我們是要偏重在政治妥協的結果還是要強調大家每個人都認為應該要有的那個獨立跟綜藝性那當然我還是要強調就是說剛才我們要提到因為主席剛才跟我講原來三黨都有但是我手邊的就這個那我就要再抱怨一下了"},{"start":6336.294,"end":6344.697,"text":"就是說你既然就是說在座剛才其他幾個學者也提到啊對不對如果說不要過水的話只是說我們來這邊發個牢騷如果我們只是過水這樣的話我覺得意義真的不是很大我覺得也是對我們學者不尊重我覺得真的很不尊重首先不僅是如果三長都有的話那應該都要給我們而且更重要他們的回答"},{"start":6365.575,"end":6392.812,"text":"不是只有問卷的問題吧他們的問題可能更重要啊對啊 那這一次因為時間實在是壓迫到我剛才聽那個中委講他認為一個月算充分嗎我覺得如果大家這麼看重這個中選會委員的話我覺得一個月是基本上是有問題的啊因為這個太壓迫了包括我不知道我不知道立法院這邊委員會看到三個黨提出的這個問卷"},{"start":6394.195,"end":6413.571,"text":"那你們哪個時候看到嘛 我不知道啊因為我手邊是完全沒有啊那如果只是要我看這種自視性的這種東西我覺得這個真的來講不要說對我們專家學也不尊重我覺得對被提名的也不尊重"},{"start":6414.312,"end":6417.054,"text":"那我要講你說這些問卷的問題他也有可能虛打那我覺得沒有關係我覺得針對重要議題重要議題喔這七個背題面他們敢不敢勇於回答還是只是在那邊很胡誇的還是原則性的宣示"},{"start":6432.984,"end":6453.268,"text":"看他怎麼具體回答 我們還在看他態度啊對不對 因為如果說他連對重大議題表達意見的這一點他都不敢永遠表達 而且是虛擬一遭的話那我真的不能期待說他未來當中協會委員不管是主委 副主委 或其他委員能夠獨立行使啦這個是我針對這個 剛才這個意見我再補充一下"},{"start":6460.111,"end":6461.333,"text":"謝謝鄧麗如法官"},{"start":6473.777,"end":6498.809,"text":"主席各位先進 那個不好意思在用大家時間我想要呼應剛才吳教授的兩個部分那最重要的就是說剛才其實大家提到說中選會的這個任命的同意可能是作為這個橄欖枝那但是我也是有一點點憂慮就是說如果這個所謂按照政黨推薦比例繼續要適用到NCC特別是大法官 那我覺得這邊"},{"start":6500.036,"end":6513.913,"text":"民間恐怕會有一個相當的憂慮一個很重要的原因在於說其實有幾個可能的誤解第一個大法官的提名程序並不是沒有民間的意見的灌輸就是"},{"start":6514.386,"end":6533.946,"text":"其實在台灣的這個過去以往的慣例來講其實關於大法官的人選從來就是各個民間團體但是排除政黨徵詢跟推薦那這個非常優秀的傳統我想有一個非常重要的原因其實就是剛才吳教授所提到的大法官本身並不是他是政治中立的而且是這個作為"},{"start":6534.625,"end":6560.169,"text":"所謂最後的司法定奪的部分這跟中選會本身各個政黨都希望透過這樣的機制來取得執政的正當性取得選舉的公正性本質上有很大的不同那所以這個部分其實我是個人對於如果日後這樣子政黨推薦的機制要適用在大法官上確實是會有這個相當的保留那這個是我想"},{"start":6561.189,"end":6579.698,"text":"針對這個部分想要特別提的第二個就是說關於這一次的這個這個中選會委員的這個被提名的部分剛才吳教授也提到說要能夠適度的對於這個當選者不管是立法或者是在野不管是行政或者是立法能夠表達這個不同的意見這一點"},{"start":6580.731,"end":6607.758,"text":"那這一次的其實被提名人我也要做一點肯定其實如果說詳細讀他們的這個自傳或者是說相關的說明的話你也會注意到有某些的被提名人他是很明白的表示他認為譬如說公投綁大選這件事情這個已經經過大院已經立法通過了但是他是明白的表示說他個人是不認同的但是如何能夠在適度的表達反對意見之下仍然能夠在這個"},{"start":6610.058,"end":6638.984,"text":"依照現行的法律來進行執政進行這個施政我想這件事情或者這個態度的表達本身是重要的那這個其實我在讀這個自傳的時候其實有點擔心就是說被提名的你就這個立場表達的這麼清楚而明顯就表示說我其實反對大院這一屆所通過的立法這一點其實看起來是有點危險的所以這邊我也希望能夠再幫他多講一句話就是說他做這樣子的表明其實某種程度是呼應了剛才吳教授所提到的"},{"start":6639.284,"end":6660.546,"text":"能夠適度的對於是非對錯能夠跳出政黨的這個意見或者跳出這個大院目前已經通過立法的意見在適度表達自己的見解之下仍然能夠尊重現行法律表明說他即使不同意仍然願意按照現行法這個忠實的執行他的職務我想這是值得肯定的以上 謝謝"},{"start":6662.959,"end":6670.444,"text":"謝謝我們感謝洪律師我們請問還有學者專家在家會發言嗎沒有"},{"start":6684.423,"end":6707.895,"text":"在這裡 針對本次工廠會做議案的結論非常感謝各位學者、專家提供報告的意見作為澳新澤本領事董議員的參考今天所有出席的領館發現和提供市面資料"},{"start":6711.518,"end":6725.527,"text":"審判會委員所提出的書面資料除列入紀錄刊登的範圍公報外也會造成另外行為公聽會的報告上告本院全體委員及今天所"},{"start":6733.55,"end":6745.482,"text":"出席的委員參與在此感謝各位的參與謝謝大家本次的共聽會到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":6771.493,"end":6800.037,"text":"然後 因為我剛才跟郭文貴說真的 聖堂會差不多這個 只有四個會議然後我剛才跟郭文貴說對 我覺得是 從大陸的思考感到好感到好 感謝 感謝 感謝今天 今天 今天我剛才跟郭文貴說我們國會一樓會出 他說我剛才跟郭文貴說我剛才跟郭文貴說真的 你們"},{"start":6800.401,"end":6825.125,"text":"謝謝,我親愛的好朋友謝謝,因為在你們的官方,我們都會,大家都來,我們都會"},{"start":6828.575,"end":6855.35,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167248","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167248","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd61881022eba5e1f74f0d8b2e6dd44a39c46b25c95edea359322c403e2c817e391698a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:52:56 - 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請許子密 何次長 高副主委委員好好 三位好我想台灣的談判團隊在美東時間的1月15號有正式有一個MOU國人都非常的關心而且也是對台灣來說我想請問一下三位目前為止覺得這樣的結果滿意嗎"},{"start":32.318,"end":33.225,"text":"我們的國家滿意嗎 你們滿意嗎"},{"start":37.321,"end":57.292,"text":"目前來講我們跟產業界都很滿意還可以接受是好因為關稅降為15千不疊加然後半導體還有衍生品232項關稅最優惠待遇但是我們同樣的承諾要付出了2500億的自主投資那剛聽直敏說的這含不含台積電的1500億1000億含還是不含"},{"start":63.953,"end":72.737,"text":"我在這邊只能在這邊回答就是說包含計劃中的投資包含台灣企業計劃包含台灣企業計劃中的投資所以包含台積電的一千億嗎包含還是不包含有這麼難嗎"},{"start":84.069,"end":103.317,"text":"計劃中的台積電的1000億算在裡面就對了如果您是指這一塊的話我們有聽到美國商務部的發言是包含的好 這2500億所以你大概已經有1000億了那另外1500億的Code我們有被限制在多久時間內要完成嗎"},{"start":105.322,"end":132.27,"text":"包委沒有沒有所以沒有一定要在一年兩年之內完成所以你現在的時間還有然後投資也都找得到不會有所謂做不到的狀況吧跟委員報告這個應該是企業自主投資所以企業一定是看到能夠賺錢的機會但我們要鼓勵對我們要鼓勵然後第二個今天這是一個MOU如果中華民國政府沒有做到會不會影響到我們的關稅談判的結果會吧"},{"start":134.911,"end":141.835,"text":"因為沒有壓時間但是我們會有一些相關的他畢竟是個條件他不可能說你做不到還是繼續維持原意嘛人家也會盯著你看這是第一點所以我們一定要在我們可控的範圍之內完成這樣的任務而不是只是單純說我答應然後沒有時間所以我就耍賴我想這個也不是大家可以大家要這樣看到的另外一個是我們看到的是"},{"start":164.335,"end":182.88,"text":"美国也要投资台湾对吗是看到他们说双向投资机制可是我们从美国商务部公告的相关的fact sheet就是事实清单里面好像没有看到相关的细节跟项目甚至没有看到金额市长现在有内容了吗美国对台湾投资有内容了吗"},{"start":189.012,"end":217.643,"text":"像委员报告就是说有关于美国要对台湾投资这个事情确实是在投资MOU里面有载明的那里面有提到有像这样2500亿这么具体的金额跟项目吗金额的部分没有明确的说明所以有没有金额项目跟时间然后也有包括就是说他们会通透过相关的机制来支持你现在在这边回答的是立法委员的咨询我希望你清楚的回答我有没有项目范围跟金额跟时间"},{"start":218.615,"end":234.214,"text":"没有有产业然后没有提到金额所以产业什么产业五大信赖产业以及生物科技产业五大信赖产业生物科技产业一样的同样你这个案子MOU将来也要送到国会来追认是吗"},{"start":235.351,"end":251.482,"text":"我們會依...依據條例締結法的程序...所以你還是要回答我們有關項目範圍金額我可以同意這是在談判之間必須需要跟美方溝通的但是一樣我們如果被要求的這麼具體2500億項目範圍金額同樣的美國對台的投資也應該續名項目範圍金額這是你們的任務不是嗎為什麼沒有要求具體的項目範圍跟金額呢"},{"start":266.963,"end":284.996,"text":"有關於投資的談判還是他們不願意提供他們多少錢不講項目知道 金額不說 時間沒有如果我們看到日本跟韓國跟美國的談判裡面的話事實上是只有單項所以就是說美國要求"},{"start":285.656,"end":303.082,"text":"我們在跟美國的談判裡面有要求到雙向對我們的承諾也沒有具體所以這個可能是經貿辦或者是我們行政院還是要去努力完成在MOU確認項目金額跟範圍我想這個對國人才有辦法交代"},{"start":304.102,"end":318.327,"text":"當然我知道不好談接下來是說經濟部是說對美投資本來就是台灣的企業海外投資的一部分只是把台灣本來要投資在台灣那會不會排擠到台灣企業對台灣的投資"},{"start":320.639,"end":330.425,"text":"根文報告 事實上是不會的因為其實這個企業不至於影響企業本來就要全球布局其實是因為有台積電這樣的一個投資他會把相關的這些產業鏈帶過去所以不會排擠到台灣原有的投資"},{"start":339.951,"end":356.32,"text":"我們不希望影響台灣其他的產業投資的動能另外就是鄭麗君副院長是說美國是希望晶片的自給率要有一定的比例但是不是由台灣獨立完成這個自給率也就是日本韓國還有其他業者都是美國"},{"start":357.921,"end":368.852,"text":"晶片自給率的成員也就是說我們即使是去美國投資了我們還是要跟日本韓國跟其他的相關的產業做同樣的競爭對吧"},{"start":370.444,"end":394.709,"text":"沒錯也就是說我們現在要做的是我們是不是更應該去積極甚至我們要爭取所謂的市佔率還有產品規格跟技術的制定這個可能是台灣在下一步投資了以後我們不要再變成邊緣人或者是又變成只是代工者我想這個即使要投資在那邊也是要跟日本韓國競爭"},{"start":396.289,"end":425.781,"text":"所以這兩塊可能是經濟部下一步要告訴我們很清楚的是不是只有去投資去投資完之後還要穩定我們的市佔率台灣今天有談判的這個條件就是因為我們有非常強的企業跟市佔率所以跟我們報告其實我們今年推的AI新十大建設裡面對未來半導體發展的矽光子的技術就是要確保我們台積電未來在半導體會有領先的地位確保台積電去了投資不會不至於因為美國把全世界都拉過去之後然後我們反而"},{"start":426.101,"end":434.069,"text":"陷入了劣勢這是第二個第三個部分就是我們現在這個moment還沒有生效請問什麼時候會生效這個時間還沒生效"},{"start":439.129,"end":460.342,"text":"要在簽署台美對等貿易協定之後簽字完成生效雙方各自完成內部程序之後以現在這個時間點還要你剛剛說數週大概是幾週2月底之前可不可能簽生效剛剛有報告過就是現在雙方團隊都非常的努力我們希望能夠盡快2月底之前希望能夠簽署生效"},{"start":461.148,"end":467.195,"text":"有關時間點的話我們目前還是數週我相信這個對台灣現在這個moment我們還是20加N對吧沒錯現在還是這樣所以啊越快越好不是嗎15%跟20%還是差很多再加一個N就差更多另外一塊是有關"},{"start":482.321,"end":490.668,"text":"你們在報告裡面很清楚的談判是我們對於美國進口的關稅要調降但是沒有細節要談好之後再對我們報告請問現在針對關稅調降的部分已經有具體的項目了嗎"},{"start":498.154,"end":500.915,"text":"向委員報告因為現在雙方還在做項目的核對的當中這裡面包括汽車農產品大家現在都在猜測第二個是非關稅障礙非關稅貿易障礙之前美方對於我們的要求是針對很多的食品安全還有甚至勞工權益"},{"start":517.241,"end":530.249,"text":"這兩塊都是他們要求很久但我們一直沒有答應的事情現在這兩塊都會可能成為你們談判的籌碼跟條件我們會堅持原來的立場還是我們會在這中間有大幅度的開放"},{"start":531.417,"end":553.739,"text":"像委員報告就是兩件事情第一個事情就是說什麼時候會公開那是要簽署之後會公開第二件事情就是我們談判的原則就是國家利益產業利益國民健康糧食安全就算是要爭取到關稅降低但是不可以犧牲食品安全國人安全甚至是勞工權益我想這個是最基本的原則"},{"start":554.6,"end":564.73,"text":"另外一個就是看到你們有說支持在WTO架構下免徵電子相關專稅可是我們看到最近美國說他要退出WTO你們這些報告還有用嗎"},{"start":566.149,"end":575.671,"text":"像委員報告美國最近是說他要退出WHO那WTO的部分他之前是拖欠匯費後來他已經開始繳匯費了將來在WTO的架構之下我們台灣還是要維持我們國家的自主性不能因為要談判這個關稅喪權辱國別人有什麼我們就該有什麼"},{"start":592.615,"end":605.759,"text":"日本韓國該怎麼樣就該怎麼樣我覺得這個是最基本台灣不能因為我們可能在軍事方面要靠美國而在貿易方面做不應該有的讓步好時間暫停我想最後請金管會主委三位請回時間暫停一下"},{"start":613.433,"end":631.05,"text":"不好意思 再給我一分鐘就好所以我想最重要的是現在股票已經上三萬點了那民眾很多都在年輕人其實都開始有投資跟理財的觀念那我們一直在討論就是我們現在的股票還是一千股一千股做一個單位一張"},{"start":632.071,"end":654.344,"text":"那在全世界甚至美股現在其實都可以買到一股可是我們知道相關的金管會的對於這些交易的很消極從來不做相關的檢討主委是不是應該檢討一下像日本現在的部分是100股然後我們現在很多大的股份股票都拆分了其實就是讓一般人的門檻能夠降低"},{"start":654.944,"end":670.212,"text":"那但是他們會有個價差因為你用撮合的方式會有跟事實上交易的價差還是有一段的距離所以主委我相信你也很想做一些改革這個部分是不是應該做一些檢討甚至有一個逐步的接近然後讓台灣的股票市場可以更貼近國際的趨勢"},{"start":675.684,"end":691.768,"text":"跟委員說明其實有關其實我們資本市場有非常非常多議題我們都有持續的在檢討中一千股很久了可以調整了針對零股交易也有做強化我想這部分剛剛委員提到其實不只這個議題我們很多議題都在研究中"},{"start":692.308,"end":710.966,"text":"所以我希望零股交易这个部分有做了但是我刚刚讲它还是有一定的价差如果有价差它的确是不是非常的公平它等于说两个价格但是你如果有一股一股交易的话现在我们台湾已经开放买美股了所以其实很多民众都转向直接去买美股因为可以买到一股两股"},{"start":711.767,"end":740.675,"text":"那跟台灣一次要買一千股如果像台積電的金額這樣的話其實一般民眾根本就買不到那現在大家可能去買ETF可是可能還是受到很多大盤的波動但他可能不能只選擇他喜歡的股份我是認為說一千股已經行之多年了日本現在一百股我們可以考慮甚至可以考慮到美股降低年輕人購買股票的這些門檻我想主委是不是也可以進一步的檢討然後往這個方向走"},{"start":742.391,"end":755.67,"text":"其實這些都是我們在日常檢討真的需要做我們就會來處理好 謝謝主委好 謝謝黃珊珊委員主委請回我們接下來請王世堅委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167247","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167247","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd6188101ed2d7fe542cc010784d0199fe87f28ac95edea359322c40628ecc4a3d608f005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:48:04 - 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葉委員部長好我想請教一下今天我們在討論說那個軍購預算它到底應該放在特別預算還是一般預算那我想另外先問一個問題因為我們現在去採購這些裝備那目前國防部編列的預算除了裝備本身之外大概應該也會編前一兩年的一些維修費用會嗎會嗎"},{"start":31.718,"end":47.698,"text":"他就這個新式的裝備有關相關所需要的這些新式裝備的一些那些接裝的初次的備份料件還有這個接裝的訓練等等那大概編幾年"},{"start":52.581,"end":77.953,"text":"這個依序項目會有點不同像那個海馬仕的部分他因為保固期是三年所以我們規劃的部分他的初次備份料件也是三年然後接裝訓練也是三年標槍跟托式的部分因為已經有買過了所以他不需要再做前置的接裝訓練只要做著內拱總能擴訓所以這個部分他的備份料件的部分跟訓練的部分我們是以"},{"start":78.553,"end":102.56,"text":"第一年來編列 後續就是以維持費來支應好 那譬如說以戰車來講咧 編幾年戰車的部分是一年半一年半 好 但是我就講戰車啦戰車我們應該不是只用一年半嘛 對吧我們預計要用多少年戰車的部分 戰甲 砲車它都有一個概略的標準期程是大概在十年的時候 它會進行檢討做"},{"start":105.294,"end":131.394,"text":"其實我的問題很簡單因為我們現在在省預算的時候其實我們只看得到比如說以戰車來說就是第一年的作業費然後維修費用但是假設他用十年甚至用到二十年那後續十幾年他到底需要花到多少錢其實是看不出來的所以我們希望說網部可不可以幫評估一下我們買這些裝備到底後續來講的話可能還需要花到多少錢來做"},{"start":132.515,"end":149.865,"text":"不管是維修也好或者是保存也好等等因為我們現在裝備不是買來買來就好嘛後續還有很多維修費用啊比如我們買愛國者的飛彈愛國者飛彈它有時候比如說彈頭啊什麼問題啊你還要送回美國去處理啊再送回來其實都是很大一筆費用啊"},{"start":150.973,"end":171.532,"text":"那其實我們也看到說最近我們國軍的裝備的維修費用其實是越來越高像今年光是空軍的維修保險費用我看媒體報導就是已經編了625億比去年的437億都升高那這個當然有很多原因啦一方面可能是因為比如說兩岸關係"},{"start":173.234,"end":185.547,"text":"緊張啊 中共可能常常這個飛機啊老台啊 我們要半飛啊使用頻率比較高啊甚至於我們裝備增加都有可能所以這個部分有關於後續的費用可不可以大概估一個"},{"start":187.059,"end":208.229,"text":"估月數字出來讓大家參考一下好不好作業維持費的這個部分你要考量到就是說譬如說以海馬仕為例的話我們新購進來我們會淘汰那個舊的裝備那舊的裝備如果你那個越舊是它的維持費相對來講是更高這個是海馬仕嘛有的是我們新購的嘛就是說你不能夠說你們現在會說"},{"start":210.29,"end":220.418,"text":"那我新裝備進來我後面要有維修那我同樣我新裝備進來我舊裝備淘汰那也要算入舊裝備淘汰之後所節省下來的作業為之位現在就針對新裝備而已那你舊的我現在沒有說等一下等一下部長你不要預設立場你現在覺得我來找你麻煩所以你才會這樣子講我現在只是說給個數字大家參考我沒有說新的裝備買進來之後"},{"start":236.17,"end":263.714,"text":"整體維修費一定會增加多少 我並沒有這樣講我只是說你概括一下讓大家參考啊這個去扯到說舊的淘汰幹嘛包委 這個部分可能要專門跟您做報告因為我們在整規書的細分段裡面就已經針對整厚的部分有了一個完整的規劃但是每一個它都必須經過精密計算所以也不見得每個都一樣那如果我也有興趣的話我們可以針對個案的部分去跟您說明說我們細分段是怎麼樣去推估這些整厚的"},{"start":264.025,"end":275.892,"text":"可以啊可以啊好好謝謝然後再來喔再請教一下剛剛我有看到王威文也有問啦就是17號的時候共軍有一個針尖的無人機到我們闖到我們東沙島的領空嘛"},{"start":277.09,"end":302.392,"text":"2024年那個邱國正部長他有講說我們現在已經更改了我們第一級的作業方式以前是說有如果敵軍有開炮或開槍的時候我們才會第一級但是現在是只要共軍的實體航空器越界我們就會第一級我想問一下像以東沙島那個艱增無人機闖到我們領空這個狀況它符不符合第一級的要件"},{"start":305.118,"end":320.383,"text":"呃我想剛剛已經跟王委員已經呃討論過了這件事情就是說這個要看因為我們本來的這些突發狀況組織規定呃本來就有相關的對這些有律定那就要看他這個如果按照"},{"start":321.263,"end":334.061,"text":"按照當時威脅的程度如果我們是遭受到武裝攻擊的話我們當然可以行使我們自我防衛的固有權利所以各級部隊可以依照突發狀況所賦予的這些授權舉證跟交戰規則來有效應處這些緊急的突發狀況"},{"start":337.897,"end":360.573,"text":"所以沒有 你沒有回答我的問題以比如說邱國正部長所講的只要共軍實體航空器越界我們就可以低級那以這一次的狀況1月17號發生的狀況它沒有符合低級的條件所以我已經講過了我們依照這個威脅的程度我們合比例的所以他並不是說航空器越界直接就低級他要看它的威脅程度"},{"start":361.213,"end":388.456,"text":"我們依視他的威脅程度來行使自衛權的反對我知道那以這個個案來講他的威脅強不強我想就這個部分來看的話在當時的情況之下他不構成還不構成一個武裝攻擊的一個態勢那以這個狀況他要什麼情況下才會你才會第一級是說因為你們有叫他離開嘛然後後來他停留一段時間就離開那是說他一直不離開所以就會第一級還是怎麼樣"},{"start":389.389,"end":411.892,"text":"對 所以我們要試他的威脅程度啊這講得太籠統了因為他本身你們都沒有平常在軍中都沒有講得很清楚嗎就是說以這個個案來講現在因為他來了 請他離開 離開了所以不構成威脅但是什麼什麼情況之下其實我們是可以第一級然後我們第一級我們是用什麼方式對不對 你們都沒有針對這個個案做個討論"},{"start":413.733,"end":435.573,"text":"我們有但是我想我們也不適宜在這裡說明這個都不適宜這個都不適宜在這邊講喔那誰知道你是有還是沒有對啊怎麼每一個東西都以這種方式來迴避搞不好你根本沒有啊但是你講不出來你就說不適合在這邊講我不知道說這個有什麼不能講欸因為我剛剛引述的是公開資料是2024年邱國正部長在立法院的答詢啊"},{"start":436.587,"end":463.073,"text":"自己講的說共軍的航空器只要實體越界我們就可以第一級然後現在你又說我們要試情況我說那什麼情況你就說不方便講我們一直講就是說試威脅的程度行使這個威脅程度這就很籠統那我請教一下你們後來國防部有對外講說那一天之所以後來也沒有發射沒有把他打下來是因為他是在航空射程外"},{"start":464.127,"end":487.647,"text":"有這樣回答嗎我想新聞稿上面有這麼寫有這樣寫嗎所以他到底是因為不構成威脅沒有去打他還是因為他是在防空射程外沒有去打他我們當然要當時的判斷委員全程監控那麼依照他的這個威脅的程度不要再繞圈圈我說因為你們對外發布有講說他是在防空射程外嘛讓大家以為說是因為在防空射程外打不到"},{"start":488.188,"end":517.828,"text":"所以沒去打但是部長你現在講法又有點改口了說是因為他不構成威脅所以沒有去打他所以實際上他是因為在防空射程外的關係還是因為他不構成威脅我這邊可以跟委員做一個說明就是說他這個一個高高空的一個狀態所以我們認為沒有構成這個武裝攻擊的一個程度所以我們沒有行使這一個所謂的把它視為武裝攻擊而進行所謂的自衛權的反擊"},{"start":518.928,"end":539.759,"text":"應該是這樣講 那麼所以所以我們還是講我們依照他的威脅的程度 我們合比所以你的意思是說 因為他在很高空啦在防空射程外 所以不構成威脅所以我們沒去打他 是這個意思嗎相關 我想這些細節我們"},{"start":542.762,"end":568.183,"text":"委員好 我是發言人沈立芳跟您做一個報告我們在新聞稿裡面所談到的在防空射程武器之外這件事情是陳述一個事實就是說它當時的高度在我們的武器射程之外好 那所以跟要不要打它是無關並不是因為它太高打不到並不是因為打不到所以沒打就對了好 那如果今天它在我們的防空射程外然後你們又評估說它有構成威脅的話你會怎麼處理"},{"start":570.871,"end":582.48,"text":"報告委員 實際上這個在我們的突破狀況處置規定裡頭都有詳細的律定我們會看它威脅的程度做評估可是相關的戰術細節您等於在這邊我們不能公開的掀開我們這什麼戰術細節你可以針對可以講的"},{"start":587.924,"end":611.983,"text":"今天大家為什麼來問這個事情因為大家會覺得說怎麼連一個針尖無人機過來好像都無法處理嘛然後國軍每次都是的回應方式就是說我們會處理我們有辦法但我不能講那誰知道你是有沒有辦法你可以針對你可以講的部分來回答可是不能夠回答方式每次都說我們有辦法但我不能講"},{"start":612.683,"end":626.372,"text":"這一部分牽扯到我們國軍的作戰安全我們當然不能公開你可以針對可以講的部分因為我們現在在這邊監督嘛就是說你到底有沒有辦法因為我現在針對的是你發布的新聞稿不合理的地方在跟你討論嘛所以剛剛那一位"},{"start":628.493,"end":643.727,"text":"那個官員也有講嘛就是那兩者沒有必然關係嘛但我們會想要知道說既然國軍有一個第一級的原則那到底什麼情況之下是可以打不能打你不能說每一次只要問到好像你比較難回答問題就說我們做到但是呢不告訴你"},{"start":644.107,"end":662.904,"text":"第一集的原則當然是要堅守的可是有關這些戰術還有武器使用我沒有要問到那麼細我沒有要問到那麼細我沒有要問到那麼細我們現在只要問說到底是有沒有辦法保衛大家沒有要問到我沒有要問到說叫你把機密講出來不要動不動這樣子扣人家帽子好像我們在窺探什麼機密一樣我沒有要問機密嘛"},{"start":667.088,"end":677.37,"text":"沒有要問機密但是你要告訴大家到底一個原則在哪裡嘛你現在原則就是很籠統啊你就是說原則剛才部長已經做了說明了那個原則就太籠統了啊部長可不可以針對可以講的部分至少講一個讓國人安心的第一點"},{"start":689.813,"end":711.115,"text":"如果遭受到外來的武裝攻擊依照聯合國憲章51條規定我們就可以採取武力進行自我防衛的固有權利這第一個第二個我們要進行這個自衛的時候呢自衛反擊的時候我們要合比例的來行使這是第二個第三個各級部隊可以依照突發狀況指示規定賦予的"},{"start":711.696,"end":720.864,"text":"授權舉證跟交戰規則有效的來應處這些緊急突發的事件那至於其他的部分呢我想我們並不適合在這邊做公開的說明好 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在場的各位委員包括歷任的李燕秀委員新任的李委員 陳清輝陳委員"},{"start":28.115,"end":55.505,"text":"在座的各位官員大家早安 大家好可不可以請主席請台灣有兩隻龍兩隻龍飛舞在台灣讓台灣有龍整個經濟一閃一閃亮晶晶先請央行的楊金龍 楊總裁請楊總裁金管會彭主委"},{"start":59.312,"end":73.237,"text":"那其他待會也請財政部莊部長還有國家發展委員會的高副主委還有財團法人中小企業信保基金的魏銘古魏董事長那個總裁你好是我想過去啊"},{"start":80.049,"end":99.025,"text":"我們一直在立法院不斷的財委部努力打拚希望可以看到台灣經濟的亮點可以找到台灣成長的動力股市是經濟的櫥窗今天好不容易看到股市飛躍萬點 兩萬點現在已經上了三萬點三萬點不曉得"},{"start":107.464,"end":116.49,"text":"現在後續兵五年馬年就要到了總裁你覺得台灣的股市會繼續有亮點嗎我覺得這一次股市的亮點還是在科技股當然這一次的經貿談判的關稅對我們的傳產也有利多"},{"start":138.005,"end":153.838,"text":"所以基本上恐怕傳產因為過去一年來講的話我們傳產的一個股市不是很好但是也許它會慢慢的會好一點好 我們希望說股市雖然"},{"start":154.438,"end":182.723,"text":"占上了三萬點可是有很多的傳統產業或是中小企業得不到政府關愛的眼神所以本題今天講因為以前每萬點大概我們與會的財經官員以前有吃過以前都準備了雞排還有喝過有吃過今天上一萬點增加一個"},{"start":183.905,"end":209.763,"text":"就是金元寶希望台灣人民面對未來的經濟可以天天吃到飽因為這次股市雖然漲到了三萬點很多人沒有看好 沒有跟好所以我們金榮老師在講有時候大家要注意聽接著請彭主委"},{"start":213.049,"end":235.371,"text":"彭主委 你也是金融不是 我是金融兩個都是金融不過我們都是為台灣的經濟在努力看到了台灣股市上了三萬點我覺得你的福氣跟運氣也不錯以前有人站在那個地方不漲就是不漲你來了以後拚命漲"},{"start":237.034,"end":237.856,"text":"新的一年還會不會持續這樣的一個進勢這樣的進道繼續持續向上"},{"start":245.339,"end":266.426,"text":"我想謝謝委員對台灣的祝福我想其實上我們身為金管會我們不會對未來市場做任何的預測我想我在很多的委員會的時候也都說過這句話那我們是一個市場資訊充沛揭露維持市場的公平大概是這樣的做法我們當然期待我們台灣的經濟持續的"},{"start":268.106,"end":294.946,"text":"能夠向上因為不管剛才陳儒剛才委員提到的我們的資本市場是我們經濟的櫥窗不管怎麼樣最後一定是反映我們的基本面好 謝謝那大家都知道金管會很重要那我們請政企局的高金平高局長台灣證券交易所的林修銘林董事長李愛玲總經理以及歐指揮的簡立中林董事長簡董還有陳立芹陳總經理"},{"start":297.849,"end":314.34,"text":"簡董事長上市上規公司1850家每一家都代表很多股民的殷切的期盼所以我想請教一下林董事長昨天101很熱鬧創紀錄噴燈高峰台灣股市會不會繼續在持續走牛市"},{"start":327.814,"end":333.939,"text":"我想台灣的股市的發展充分的顯現我們現在產業在世界上的地位那外資的持股也事實上也達到了蠻高的點大概快到48%所以基本上來講我覺得產業的發展我們持著蠻樂觀的角度因為這個世界上的競爭力在全世界競爭力裡面短期是無法取代的所以我們也看到資本市場"},{"start":354.017,"end":368.225,"text":"這段時間以來的動能事實上比以前更加強烈現在的開戶數有多少它實際上的開戶數是一千三四百戶但是有不同的券商一個有兩個三個帳戶都有"},{"start":375.411,"end":395.344,"text":"那我們希望說新的一年 強強滾希望能做大台灣的交易市場我們面向全球過去央行也可能比較保守未來證券交易所希不希望台灣能擁有一個以比特幣或者虛擬貨幣計價的一個交易市場"},{"start":399.006,"end":426.305,"text":"事實上來講台灣證券交易所對於邁向國際的交易所跟國際的競爭對於各個世界上的交易所的未來的發展我們都在研議中所以包括委員你關心的事實上也很多不只這個產品端事實上制度端 交易端 發行端的一些政策的發展事實上我們都一直都在密切的關切並且在研議"},{"start":427.622,"end":448.386,"text":"好 我們希望新的一年是秉武年馬年希望所有台灣的股民每個人都馬上發財好不好好 謝謝委員的期許好 一起繼續來努力讓台灣的所有股市上市櫃公司的能見度全世界可以看得到那你擔不擔心這個關稅的問題對整個未來所有的這些上市櫃公司的影響"},{"start":454.028,"end":468.053,"text":"事實上這次關稅的談判基本上來講的話我們覺得還蠻有信心的我覺得從這段時間以來股市的表現我們可以看到一些數字事實上也給予一些肯定好 謝謝當沖降稅需不需要再延長"},{"start":477.044,"end":501.05,"text":"當沖降稅我們希望當然能夠延長那我們也希望能夠常態化因為事實上來講的話這個量是一個非常重要對資本市場一個非常重要的一個活水那我們也希望台灣的資本市場不只在市值上的增加以外我們在流動量的部分來講的話也能夠跟國際一樣的重要 對"},{"start":506.155,"end":533.51,"text":"好 謝謝本黨主席鄭立文 鄭主席他說新的一年是和解愛台灣拼經濟的一年所以我們希望大家面對經濟的問題不要有成見只要對台灣好的我們一定全力來推動那所以下一日麻煩那個召委我們現場的李延秀理委員李坤城委員還有陳清輝城委員我們是不是請所有的官員"},{"start":534.651,"end":558.924,"text":"前面有雞排有珍奶自己取用順便自己拿一個元寶祝福大家新年快樂馬年新大運馬上發財謝謝羅民財委員羅民財委員特別準備了兩百份我們現場的記者媒體朋友待會大家也可以一起來共享這個金錢"}]}},{"id":"167242","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167242","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd6188101f9f43485ee8e797784d0199fe87f28af80b2b3af3c6937856a65096fc31f86f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:15:58 - 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請顧部長還有情報相關情事事嗎 還是"},{"start":12.99,"end":35.718,"text":"是 陳惠勇好部長好 部長我們簡單來先請教一下剛才我看王定文也有問過但是我就直接比較直接了當的來問中共中央的經委副主席張又俠那他被依照他們的說法是嚴重的違反他們的法律那之後對台的這個中共軍對台的威脅性是提高還是降低你們怎麼看"},{"start":37.659,"end":66.185,"text":"您說對中共對台的威脅未來這一個因為他們的人是有激烈鬥爭那負責掌握軍事重權的這個張又俠那這個被說很違紀違法之後那被整肅之後接下來對台灣的不管是採取的這種戰略攻勢等等是會來越來越風險越高還是其實是降低因為他們沒有足夠的能力去執行軍事行動我想請教一下部長跟我們相關的情報單位怎麼看"},{"start":66.505,"end":85.981,"text":"第一點就是說中國的軍事預算逐年升高對我們的軍事威脅當然就是日益升高而且近來對於這些相關的這些不管是日常的這些侵擾或聯合戰備警訓乃至於針對性的軍援我想這些威脅都沒有在減少"},{"start":87.943,"end":110.864,"text":"我們判斷的應該是不會去因個別高層的落馬然後就來做一個結論性的一個意見而相關的是我們應該是盡量去收集軍事跟所有非軍事面的這些相關的這些威脅的徵喉然後來做一個研判"},{"start":111.545,"end":127.95,"text":"所以他們的高層官員的落馬與否跟他們實質上的能力反映在他們的能力上面或反映在他們的意圖上面不會有直接的關係我們是要依照他們的投資的資源以及他們的實質上面的軍事能力來去做判斷是這樣子講會比較正確嗎"},{"start":130.391,"end":156.502,"text":"對 事實上的軍事能力事實上相關如果說有任何的一個具體的威脅情勢存在那麼這些情勢的不是只限於軍事面嘛包括社會軍事面所以中國的這些所有黨政軍的高層的這個異動以及相關他們的決策的一個狀況我想我們都是持續關注密駐的一個對象"},{"start":157.113,"end":169.185,"text":"那張又俠的這個事件我們事先有沒有我們各個情報局處有沒有接獲到相關的資訊 我想之前他們沒有出席的時候應該是上次"},{"start":172.205,"end":187.728,"text":"所以我想我們之前因為大家都會有看到一些相關他們一些狀況所以就會有做一些研判不過我想這些研判基於中國內部的不透明性我想我們都會等他們會公布以後我們才預確定這樣子"},{"start":188.629,"end":214.822,"text":"好謝謝那原則上來講的話我們還是料敵的部分我們還是用最嚴苛的標準來對待我們自己那所以我們要來請教一下最近有兩件重大的事件第一個就是在中共無人機直接直接闖我們東沙東沙群島的領空是真正是領空那因為他的據聞是從新聞上面來看到的話是超越我軍的射程對吧是這樣嗎部長"},{"start":216.262,"end":233.914,"text":"我想我們已經有說明了就是說相關的這些在我們的這個防空射程之外這我們已經有說明了不過我想實際的狀況我覺得我們不宜在這個地方我們只是強調就是說我們就這些突發狀況"},{"start":235.155,"end":252.784,"text":"處置規定已經有律定相關提醒應變的原則那這次他直接進入我國的領空那我們未來提醒應變我們是要採取什麼樣的做法採取警告採取直接因為他直接進入領空那如果我們的做法未來"},{"start":254.145,"end":270.472,"text":"決定敵情應變的方式是採取廣播警告之後那他會不會像我過去常常在講的他用緩慢的改變現狀的方式從東沙然後到甚至是到我們的甚至到澎湖假設他已經進入我國的領空我們也是要用廣播警告嗎讓他們廣播警告後飛離嗎"},{"start":271.454,"end":285.084,"text":"我想重點是在於這些有關漸進式的灰色地帶洗澡我們第一個就要運用我們的聯合警戒性能來全程掌握然後並且我們要視它威脅的形態威脅的程度來做應處"},{"start":286.545,"end":314.635,"text":"OK 好那我只是因為我沒有要知道戰術上面的細節我也不需要知道那我只是要強調已經進入我國的領空了那這個可能就沒那麼灰色因為他進入我國的領空那未來如果不是在東沙不是在比較遙遠的離島而是在台澎 金馬裡面的台澎特別是台澎地區又不一樣了那我們的做法因應敵情 情間爭等等我想可能要思考一下"},{"start":315.815,"end":343.35,"text":"因為直接進入領空它不是什麼24海里以外那我們的做法可能要做一些調整我只是建議因為接下來就是不斷的會有這樣的事情得寸進尺然後慢慢的改變現狀然後讓它成為繼承事實最後再向國際做成他們的論述那就會對我國不管是國防甚至是外交上面的論述我們可能都會受到影響所以這個部分還是請部長可以回去看看檢討一下如果真的已經進入領空我們到底要"},{"start":344.17,"end":368.67,"text":"有沒有什麼其他的方式來去做應對那不是說一定要做極弱的動作但是怎麼樣把它驅離甚至用物理的方式把它驅離甚至是擊損我想特別是針對他們是無人機不是有人載具是無人載具那我認為風險上升的可能性不見得會那麼高但是還是要有動能的"},{"start":369.791,"end":393.306,"text":"反應特別是針對無人機進入我國的領空的話那這只是我們的建議給這個國防部做參考因為有接到不同的聲音來自我國友邦的不同的智庫有針對這些事情來做出一些反應所以我覺得還是要向國防部來討論這樣的這個事項那再來我們剛才提到除了這個無人載具之外"},{"start":395.1,"end":420.993,"text":"另外一個就是其實今天不少委員都有提到關於操作人員那操作人員這個也是老話題了那操作人員裡面我認為是培養人員這也不是一天兩天的事情部長你知道去年台灣大學的一年的預算大概是多少錢嗎大概是256億對不起這個我就不用因為這個沒有什麼好考大概是256億那我們的三軍官校加上國防大學大概是多少錢"},{"start":422.601,"end":442.139,"text":"去年大概是21億21億 總共21億那所以人均的水平來講的話我們剛有稍微算一算那這些台城青礁這些頂大大概是70幾萬那我們的這些軍隊的這個培養我們未來的軍事人員的重鎮大概只有10幾萬嘛快要20左右 17 18萬"},{"start":443.76,"end":458.201,"text":"那我覺得未來我們在培養人才特別是我們要操作高度精密性的這種需要大量的資源投入來去學習的這一些軍備我們的軍備其實採購包含無人機無人機不是操作而已"},{"start":458.882,"end":485.585,"text":"未來的維修整補改造特別是在烏克蘭的戰場中我們看到它是不斷的需要調教的也就是說我們在訓練我們未來的工程人才我們的電機人才我們的電腦科學人才來講它是必須要很花時間跟資源在上面的所以我們1.25兆它是逐年編列我覺得它裡面特別是有很多急迫性的不管是彈藥不管是這一個最新的裝備的更新都是極端需要的但是在人才上面的培育上面"},{"start":486.286,"end":511.546,"text":"如果沒有人在裡面的話那我們到底要怎麼樣使用這些武器那今年我們看到一些非常好的一些訊息就是1月1號我們成立陸軍無人機訓練中心我們就開始在把這個負責地面無人機的操作甚至培訓戰術戰法的測速運用都有把它包含在裡面這就是很好的開始因為我們重視的是以人為本因為沒有人的話就沒有人會操作沒有人會改造沒有人會維修所以"},{"start":512.347,"end":540.175,"text":"部長未來有沒有考慮說怎麼樣加強這個部分把這個我們投資在軍事人員上面的部分再把它提高有沒有這樣的規劃115年在軍事院校的部分現在是有提高從21億提高到25億多了4億多了那我想剛剛委員指教了應該我想就人均數就是說我們陸海空國防大學還有國防醫學大學還有包括"},{"start":540.879,"end":566.628,"text":"航院入境專校中心學校我想這些學生樹根我們花在他們身上的這個人均的這個預算我們可以來來檢討三分之一到四分之一嗎如果我們剛才是跟國防部要的一些有很多的這個您剛講到的這些訓練其實是有另外再透過我們相關的一些在進入部隊之後來進行這個培育譬如說"},{"start":567.588,"end":583.758,"text":"我們的自動電軍我們可能也會花大筆的錢來培訓他我們這些無人機的這個部分我們現在成立無人機中心有這些無人機的中心我們所有的這些"},{"start":584.798,"end":611.695,"text":"設備也都是要來進行這些相關的人員訓練上的一個投資部長我們都知道我們也都肯定我講這個意思是說其實當你大專院校畢業之後研究所院院校畢業之後你進入任何的民間企業私人公司也都會有這樣子的訓練這本來就會有那我們都理解那我們要求的是說未來把這些特別是因為我們現在可能要面臨的威脅是比較急迫性的時間性是比較趕的"},{"start":612.515,"end":630.441,"text":"所以我可能會比較直接的要求特別是在科學工程這個領域上面我們把它提高這個東西是很難就是大學過後你再去學那你再學習這些邏輯學習這一些基本的這些知識會有點我講會有點力不從心會比較慢一點所以這些地方我們先優先在這些上面"},{"start":631.661,"end":659.861,"text":"抱歉我可能這樣講在文科上面我自己是讀文科的我們可能資源可能先不用放那麼多因為我們現在面臨的是急迫性的所以工程學上面的就是任何跟我們現在裝備使用相關的盡快人均把它提高越快越好那時間不站在任何人這邊因為我們不用假設是時間在中國這邊還是台灣這邊但我們就假設就是這個五年假設會遇到衝突那我們要怎麼樣把資源把它做調配"},{"start":661.463,"end":678.399,"text":"我想這些都是很明顯的因為不管是任何的資訊起來由訊轉戰等等的或者是他們的居民的像最近的東海的活動調查當然的這個中國的漁船在特定時間特定海域異常的集結所以他們在用動用的是全國的資源全國的資源在裡面"},{"start":680.546,"end":694.44,"text":"我不知道我們的特別預算什麼時候會通過但是至少在我們現在能夠調配的部分在理工部分工程部分無人機訓練使用這個部分彈藥這些盡量盡快把它確保有什麼需要我們盡量來去協助好 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我們請顧立雄顧部長請顧部長徐委員好"},{"start":12.143,"end":34.205,"text":"部長好 我們今天看到這個報告裡面也有提到就是在公開資訊的部分那接下來除了美方有發這個發架書的這個無人機之外那我們自己還有包含是20多萬台所以說接下來這個在整個無人機來說的話那確實是我們在整體建軍思維當中不對稱作戰裡面非常重要的一部分"},{"start":34.865,"end":59.111,"text":"所以我們也非常關心就是說我們有未來籌措了無人機那當然也要有足夠的資源然後呢這一個有人員的培訓有人來操作這個無人機因為無人機它當然是一個比較屬於不對稱作戰的一個方向那麼呢但是它還是需要有國軍來做專業的操作它才能將它的這個效益極大化"},{"start":59.731,"end":86.28,"text":"但是我們要問一下這個無人機大隊我們到底相關配套準備好了沒我們先來看一下整個戰鬥部隊的加級歷程是什麼樣的在第114年的4月的時候先是提出了待遇提升相關的這個案子那裡面就針對戰鬥部隊加級第一級5000提高到12000這個部分我們是同意的"},{"start":87,"end":113.934,"text":"那麼呢在114年8月的時候宣布要無人機部隊成為戰鬥部隊然後呢把這個無人機的戰鬥家級送到仁總去做核備而114年的9月無人機的部隊就成立了那過程當中還有遇到這個有關於追加預算的部分關於戰鬥家級的這個追加預算那立法院也都在這59億當中給予通過了"},{"start":116.215,"end":137.507,"text":"那但是到現在115年2月目前很多的官兵都在投訴無人機的戰鬥加級是沒有發下來的先前有不同黨派的立法委員質詢過部長您有回答是因為人事行政總署沒有核定該項加級會再催促但是"},{"start":137.967,"end":149.812,"text":"我想問現在已經是年底了那麼呢也是我們這個會期裡面最後一次的這個跟國防部的質詢那跟人種催促到現在的進度"},{"start":150.976,"end":167.414,"text":"有答案了嗎 時間表是什麼跟委員報告就是說我們在去年8月26號懲罰行政院嘛那人總就針對我們這個新政的無人機部隊因為我們這個組織變裝調整之後呢那麼無人機的這個部隊的這個"},{"start":170.746,"end":196.489,"text":"這個等於是說他的勤務的內容啊應該是這樣講就勤務的內容他需要我們做一個說明那我問一下那你們原本預計人力配置到位的時間點是什麼時候啊就是說你看喔你9月1號成立無人機部隊嘛你就是有個成立嘛那你們怎麼你們是怎麼預計這個人力配置到位的時間點還有到目前為止我們所謂無人機戰鬥部隊裡面有多少人啊"},{"start":197.999,"end":215.099,"text":"我想應該跟委員能夠講就是說我們大概有31個單位那我們如果合訂之後我們會追補你不要講追補欠錢沒有在欠過年的很快要過年了好不好現在9月1號到現在過了多久了五個月了嘛對不對"},{"start":215.74,"end":231.545,"text":"理論上來說你無人機戰鬥部隊成立之後你就應該要有加給但是礙於人事總署這邊還沒有核定所以沒有給錢所以從9月1號到現在已經五個月了耶以第一級戰家一萬二來算的話你積欠每一個人已經積欠六萬了"},{"start":232.405,"end":241.067,"text":"還要再往後積欠嗎我當然知道得追捕啊如果沒追捕那還得了那對我們的國軍弟兄來說會不會太不公平我知道會追捕但不能一直用這樣子的想法來面對這件事情我要強調的是這個點因為你看這個時間上面非常的清楚你在8月的時候已經送人總核備到現在是115年的2月然後也沒有所謂的沒有錢的問題59億的戰鬥加急我們在追加預算的時候也給你辦了"},{"start":260.43,"end":278.982,"text":"那現在邊城市邊城市我告訴你喔你可以看到在115年2月份的時候會出現一個狀況就是因為你們積欠戰鬥家籍的關係我們看下兩張投影片在1月的時候的薪水就是前一個月12月核定的裡面的戰家是用舊單位的名義去發的"},{"start":279.983,"end":299.502,"text":"所以二月心想當中呢他要先被追繳扣除之後等人總合過新單位的站家才回溯播放但是呢二月的站家也沒有合過再加上你被追繳的被追繳扣掉的一萬兩千二的第一級站家一來一往是差了多少錢啊一個人差了兩萬四千塊錢"},{"start":301.224,"end":315.624,"text":"所以這個數字是很大的二等兵最低薪資41350來算的話就佔他的總待遇的六成對基層官兵來說是很多的受到官兵的影響人數光是海軍就兩百多光是陸軍"},{"start":316.665,"end":343.74,"text":"400多至少有600名的士官兵他因為這樣的關係他在整個這幾個月過程當中他會覺得受到國防部的欺騙我們回到第一張投影片可以再看一下這個過程我現在幾個問題要問剛剛的數據我其實都講解得很清楚了我要問的是到底什麼時候才能夠核備完畢才能夠回溯發放一定要簽到過年嗎不用吧"},{"start":344.62,"end":369.185,"text":"能不能夠承諾在過年前把這些錢回溯給我們的無人機大隊的軍人朋友啊我想我會跟這個人事長來溝通然後盡速那你這個溝通到底有沒有效呢因為這個部長你應該知道不是我第一個在這邊質詢的先前不同黨派的委員們也在這邊都在問都在替我們的國軍來請命可是似乎沒有用"},{"start":370.045,"end":379.447,"text":"他上次別的委員在質詢的時候我也在台下聽 我也覺得他問得很好所以呢 我又等了一陣子之後發現怎麼還是沒有核備過 怎麼還是沒有發然後現在已經要準備二月要過年了我不希望國防部欠我們軍人錢 欠過年這個對我們國人來說是一個很重要的時間點你欠他的大概六萬多塊錢還來講好了"},{"start":394.051,"end":402.774,"text":"那人家過年要發紅包的呀要回家這個陪爸爸媽媽的呀然後結果錢全部都壓在國防部裡面的應該屬於他的權益都沒有給他這樣子說得過去嗎我們是這樣子客帶我們自己的官兵弟兄嗎我知道以國防部長您的角色來說您一定也是希望盡快核備通過的但是我要問的是到底我們跟任總監出了什麼問題可以這樣子連續五個月"},{"start":420.261,"end":438.461,"text":"都沒有辦法有進展然後這麼多的委員不分黨派的催促了都沒有辦法有進展那到底您說要去溝通那為什麼都不能溝通成功呢我想我們會來我本人會跟任總來做一個說明你要什麼時候再去跟他就是"},{"start":439.372,"end":446.477,"text":"聊一聊啊我有一個要求就是說可不可以不要欠過年啊因為你們現在是一個欠錢狀態我已經有約了日期了可不可以跟他說不要欠錢欠過年因為我真的很不希望國防部發600多個基層的官兵然後這麼多錢佔他的薪資裡面的六成然後呢你欠了他五個月然後要欠到過年我覺得這真的不對這真的不對"},{"start":468.03,"end":482.912,"text":"就是於情於理 於法來說都不對所以就是我希望這邊真的跟人種不是只是說我溝通 溝通好幾次了都沒有什麼很具體的成效這個是讓我覺得很訝異的事情既然無人機大隊我們這麼重視"},{"start":484.534,"end":502.403,"text":"然後我們接下來的預算包含特別預算要籌貨這麼多的無人機代表在我們的建軍上面來說他是很重要的一環那我們在人員培育人員的薪資人員的待遇的發放上面就要合情合理合法這樣才是一個完整的戰鬥部隊"},{"start":504.06,"end":520.826,"text":"我想我這邊對當然這些無人機大隊的這個成員我當然對於我們現在還沒有辦法發動表示歉意那我想我會積極的向人總來爭取然後讓他能夠追溯至部隊邊桩合併來生效"},{"start":522.867,"end":548.16,"text":"那最後我有一個要給您看一下就是你們這個軍隊裡面不能用這種造謠的方式來處理這個事情像部長您剛剛態度很好我非常的肯定因為我們做到這樣子沒有對得起這個我們基層軍官兵的事情那是一個事實能夠調整能夠改善盡快去改善這是我們的希望那但是呢絕對不應該像這樣子我們的防防部"},{"start":551.061,"end":577.291,"text":"在這個是1月22號禮拜四11點半的時候有軍官在問為什麼錢都下不來結果得到的回覆叫做什麼呢說因為戰鬥加急的預算卡在立法院不對喔9月的時候就應該發了9月10月11月12月的這4個月的官長這4個月的戰鬥加急我們是不是有在追加預算的時候追了59億"},{"start":578.692,"end":605.323,"text":"怎麼會是沒有給錢呢如果您要跟我們去談說像今天您也當然有些氣氛就是有關於總預算或者是後續的這個特別預算等等的那您針對這個部分我覺得我們有討論的空間但我今天討論的是從九月份無人機大隊成立一路到現在是十二月份九十十一十二這四個月的戰鬥加急立法院有追加預算五十九億過的"},{"start":606.724,"end":632.224,"text":"是因為卡在人種的關係不是因為卡在立法院的關係彭防部怎麼可以跟我們的軍人這樣子去做造謠呢不對吧跟委員報告這個五四九一應該是跟這個這個部分比較沒有關係因為這個部分應該是指我們那個之前調整的各項的五項那個加級的部分裡面有這樣的加級啊沒有嗎我們"},{"start":636.048,"end":647.92,"text":"裡面有戰鬥加急嘛對對對但是對這一個這一個部分跟無人機的大隊的這個部分沒有沒有我想我不是要為這個討論我想我想我們主要要說明的就是說我們會盡力跟人種來是因為是有戰鬥加急的追加預算送進來的"},{"start":656.328,"end":665.038,"text":"但是因為人種沒有核定所以沒有辦法發放這個才是事件的原貌所以說呢如果今天有國軍弟兄來詢問他的長官說為什麼要追繳我的原本的之後才要還我為什麼我領不到的時候這個第四點說是因為"},{"start":674.988,"end":699.424,"text":"戰鬥加急預算卡在立法院這個說法其實不是不是正確的我覺得不能用這種方式去欺騙我們國軍弟兄這樣是不好的所以我們正本清源我們還是希望就是針對九十十一十二這四個月的部分那能夠盡快的跟人總這邊來核定之後真的欠錢不要欠過年在年前看能不能夠還給我們的國軍弟兄至於"},{"start":702.606,"end":731.301,"text":"今年度的就2026年的我相信接下來到時候審定總預算的時候我們會全力來支持這個是沒有問題的我們一向都非常支持軍人的待遇能夠提高那但是我剛講的這個去年的部分有欠人家的趕快還這個真的是要再一次的跟部長代表我們國軍弟兄跟部長請命是不是在過年之前可以有一個結果是不是可以給我一個最後簡短的回覆好不好"},{"start":731.881,"end":748.891,"text":"我是主席局局長針對剛剛委員有提到的我這邊回應兩點第一個有關說戰鬥加急預算目前卡在立法院這邊我要做個說明就是所有的這個戰鬥加急跟心想他都是屬於人事費的法定義務支出他並不會因為立法院沒有審議通過而不能發"},{"start":749.491,"end":774.742,"text":"所以這部分我這邊要做個說明 謝謝第二點有關剛剛委員提到說是不是1月份已經有發的部分要去做一個追扣那我分兩點來說明如果這個單位它是新編程的當然要依照新編程之後才能發如果這個單位是因為更閒或者是組織調整移編造成它的名稱或它任務有所調整的話那這部分當然要等到行政院人總這邊核定之後再做發"},{"start":775.542,"end":798.199,"text":"那已經發了 已經1月份已經發了部分我們會等到行政院核定說確定他不能發我們才會去做追補扣如果說他還可以發那我們不會先把他1月份追補你說到什麼時候決定那就看行政院什麼時候能夠核下來剛剛部長已經有講有跟任總這邊來協調一個時間我們會做這個密切的一個溝通好 謝謝那我們是部長最後回覆一下就是有沒有機會在過年之前可以把這個錢再還給大家對拖了5個月了"},{"start":801.101,"end":805.044,"text":"我跟人事長約好我想我會盡力來表達你不能只是盡力來表達你要站在國軍弟兄的立場用力表達好不好在這件事情上我對你是全力相挺如果今天說那個他們再有什麼意見的話那我去找他吵架也可以"},{"start":818.692,"end":824.257,"text":"不能欠人家薪水欠成這個樣子我們國軍弟兄在外面面對中共的軍演大家辛苦成這樣演習的時長越拉越長然後這麼辛苦然後我們要編無人機的大隊然後我們在各軍種裡面我們都在找人一起加入這個無人機大隊大家知道有戰家之後也都加入了結果進來之後發現欸 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謝謝當然首先先謝謝羅委員今天因為股市上三萬點請大家吃雞排那我也希望這個在野黨的委員能夠早一點讓總預算能夠通過總預算能夠早一點附委通過我相信我們的股市一定還會再漲"},{"start":37.779,"end":57.754,"text":"很快就可以再輪到我們農民宅委員再請一次雞排啦但是前提是總運32線讓我們過來好不好再拜託一下好來我先請教一下莊部長好了莊部長昨天那個美國的這個自由攀登的好手Alex爬上這個101你有沒有看這個直播啊"},{"start":58.374,"end":62.258,"text":"有看有看直播這個應該也是看得心驚膽跳不過我這邊要肯定我們賈永傑董事長因為他說他把101外面的五根旗幟全部都換成我們中華民國的國旗所以Netflix不管你從哪個角度拍"},{"start":78.992,"end":88.579,"text":"都可以拍到這個中華民國的國旗是一個非常成功的行銷台灣我覺得做得非常好我覺得這個要給賈文傑董事長要肯定他要稱讚他這個也做了一個大膽的決定但是結果對於台灣整體的形象來講是非常好的那我請教一下部長我們這一次請Alex來攀登101有沒有財政部或是101有沒有花到任何錢"},{"start":109.332,"end":130.444,"text":"沒有 101也沒有提供任何經費還有贊助或資金這各方面的支持只是提供場地 然後做相關的協調跟宣傳那財政部也更沒有出資了完全沒有 完全沒有那等於是說我們101在零出資的情況之下然後讓整個全世界暫時看到台灣"},{"start":131.845,"end":140.816,"text":"讓全世界看到台灣以及我們的國旗的飄揚那我覺得真的很不容易啦我本來還以為說我們101有出錢所以這次101也沒有出到半毛錢沒有那之前101蔣永傑他答應的時候你知不知道這件事情"},{"start":150.43,"end":163.043,"text":"這個部分是他們公司治理以及他們一個策略的規劃這個部分並不需要提報到財政部等於就是尊重101的決定就對了這是我要稱讚傑奧文傑董事長 稱讚101"},{"start":165.385,"end":190.871,"text":"尤其是用零出資的方式然後成功的行銷台灣我覺得這個值得肯定那也值得我覺得所有的公務人員其實都可以想一下有時候你用非常少的資本甚至像這次零資本然後創造那麼大的效益其實我覺得都應該給予肯定跟鼓勵好 謝謝部長那我請教一下這個接下來可能要請教一下國發會還有徐執密"},{"start":194.752,"end":219.858,"text":"這個 因為一直在提到說這個五千億美元的這個投資那其實現在大家都知道說兩千五百億是由民間企業自主投資那另外兩千五百億呢等於是這個政府的這個信保嘛那我請教一下這個如果經濟部和市長知道也幫忙協助一下目前這兩千五百億的企業自主投資是不是包含了一千六百五十億台積電的投資有嗎"},{"start":226.655,"end":231.28,"text":"這個應該投資的計算應該還要再跟美方那邊再確認一下徐直銘知道嗎"},{"start":234.746,"end":255.425,"text":"是有包含正在計畫中的投資就是包含這1650億包含計畫中的投資包含進去了那所以2500已經扣掉1650億了然後那不然徐殖民來來再請答覆那所以這個剩下的這一個投資應該也是這一個跟台積電相關的這些企業會在過去投資嗎"},{"start":256.806,"end":258.569,"text":"那所以大概有有有些特定的廠商會過去投資的嗎?經濟部 市長"},{"start":273.169,"end":296.54,"text":"其實我們在跟美方談判之前都已經有跟我們台灣的這些電子資訊大廠都有開過一個會議大概也了解一下他們現在正在進行中還有未來想要去投資的這個金額所以我們才會所以大概就是談定了說大概會有這些企業會進去投資大概就是2500億"},{"start":298.642,"end":318.619,"text":"應該是說會朝這樣的一個方向但是多少年倒是沒有提到大概有多少所以這2500億也不是隨便畫出來的數字是 應該是這樣就是跟我們台灣的企業半導體的企業都談過就對了有談過了好 接下來我問高副主委另外2500億"},{"start":320.46,"end":349.126,"text":"這個就是說這個等於是國家信用保證那你們有提到就是說這個財政部這邊莊部長也留住這個會由國發基金來籌措邀請公民銀行公股銀行來這個參與就對了那目前的這個準備的情況怎麼樣我們正在跟一些公股銀行跟那個民銀行在做協商當中就是說在進行當中莊部長有跟公股銀行有談過嗎"},{"start":351.601,"end":363.637,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分國發會在整體的規劃那未來呢會由公股銀行還有民營的銀行一起加入以及國發基金一起加入那這整個的期程以及出資的一個狀況會再進一步的做詳細的研議"},{"start":366.789,"end":391.401,"text":"那我相信這2500億也不是這個憑空化出來的2500億並沒有一步到位他只是提供一個支持然後支持金融機構對提供一個最高額度2500億因為你們有提到就是說這個信保的機制大概需要62.5億到100億但是也不是一次到位嘛對 都是分年分期來做的好 那這個錢這個總是要有"},{"start":394.682,"end":412.509,"text":"低筒金嘛那這低筒金的低筆錢是從哪裡來的當然會目前的規劃國發基金也好還有公股銀行跟民營銀行一起加入那國發基金這個高富足委所以部分還是會用到政府的預算"},{"start":414.137,"end":437.959,"text":"還是用基金的方式用基金 用國發基金出資的方式用國發基金的方式對 國發基金出資所以第一筆大概要出多少錢我們目前預估如果是62.5億的話大概是會300到400億的台幣然後基本上就是由國發基金跟公民銀行一起"},{"start":438.928,"end":459.54,"text":"所以初期大概就是三四百億那就是由國發基金跟我們的公民銀行一起來來籌措這是第一桶金就對了但是會過去的我認為也是跟半導體高科技相關的產業吧因為一般的產業它不會特別過去那這些產業老實講也都很有錢是沒錯"},{"start":460.14,"end":473.919,"text":"也都很有錢他們自己有資金然後就算是要跟銀行借錢需要國家信用保證的話我認為這些企業其實第一個不缺資金第二個就算來借錢未來都會還錢其實我們都會賺"},{"start":477.282,"end":498.293,"text":"所以公股跟民營銀行才有加入的用意對於公民銀行來講 他們也可以賺錢啊是不是 也算是投資啊所以他們才願意共同來參與那這是雙贏啊那我覺得這部分 外界一直在做誤解在誤導 政府要出2500億 總共要出5000億"},{"start":501.635,"end":518.704,"text":"這個還在洗我是覺得說相關的這些說明還是要說得更清楚公民銀行就算來投資也是最後也是會賺因為這些都是非常有信用的大公司有助於他的放款的業務國際放款的業務好 那請一下徐子密"},{"start":520.527,"end":536.3,"text":"接下來大家會更關心我們現在簽的是台美投資合作備忘錄MOU對不對是請問一下台美對等貿易協定大概要多久的時間目前雙方正在做法律文字的檢視還有項目的核對我們預計是數週內可以完成簽署"},{"start":542.044,"end":563.8,"text":"數週內農曆年前可以完成嗎我們目前雙方其實都很努力的在聯繫事實上我們最近跟美方的聯繫美方也說雖然現在美東大學他們在放學假但是他們不會就不工作他們還是會繼續工作所以我們雙方都持續在聯繫我們希望能夠盡快完成所以數週內算一算其實也是在"},{"start":564.801,"end":573.336,"text":"台灣的農曆年前我們是二月中嗎我們會盡快盡快好那這個協定要送到立法院來做審議"},{"start":576.576,"end":605.459,"text":"在簽署台美對等貿易協定之後行政院會依據條約締結法的程序將投資MOU跟貿易協定都一起送到立法院好 那立法院來做審議那狀況就會很多了它有可能全部都通過但是有可能全部都否定那有可能修改內部的文字那我先講不要講最極端的情況那如果它去修改你們"},{"start":606.68,"end":630.337,"text":"談定了這個協定的話那協定沒有生效嗎協定就沒有生效了如果有修改的話那是那協定沒有生效的話第一個重談如果要重談必須要雙方都同意跟委員報告剛剛其實也有說明過就是說我們不方便去對於這個假設性的狀況沒關係就是你如果"},{"start":631.499,"end":648.165,"text":"立法院做了更改第一個沒有生效嘛這是確定的嘛那沒有確定就兩個一個就是重談那要看美國要不要跟你談但是我認為呢美國不會跟你重談按照川普他的這個態度啊他就不跟你重談了"},{"start":648.945,"end":663.413,"text":"他就是從這個本來的20再疊加或許再回到更早之前32%或是更慘的有可能因為好不容易跟美國就已經談妥了那結果呢 台灣的立法院不同意"},{"start":664.594,"end":690.842,"text":"那本已經談到這15%不疊加了那現在有可能回到最壞的情況就是回到過去剛開始去年4月哈索提出來的那個告關稅啊對台灣來講傷害傷害是非常的大非常的嚴重啊我覺得要把這個嚴重性你雖然說不是假設性的問題但是你們要預想到如果這樣子的話對我們現在所有的企業它的影響會有多大我看很多的這些"},{"start":691.582,"end":705.949,"text":"工具業也好 機具業也好許多產業他們講說談到15%不疊加對他們來講都非常好我們的預估經濟成長也會再增加結果如果因為談判不生效那因為談判作廢了"},{"start":707.23,"end":736.153,"text":"那整個你們談了這麼久的這個貿易的協定那最後就作廢了那按照川普我認為啦川普就直接給你灌上去了他就不管你了這對於台灣來講危害是非常大的我覺得你們要把最壞的情況算在內就是立法院有可能會不同意或是有可能會去更改你們跟美方談妥的那些協定你們要把最壞的情況要跟國人講"},{"start":737.154,"end":745.547,"text":"知道嗎謝謝委員指教好 謝謝好 謝謝李坤城委員好 次長請回 OK好 接下來我們請黃珊珊委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167245","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167245","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd618810acc5c70346dbde24784d0199fe87f28af80b2b3af3c69378cdaf6cb2d6319c8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:36:25 - 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禮拜一的這個時間點我們其實也開了國防的機密會議喔那麼在這個機密會議當中呢我其實現在非常關注的是"},{"start":54.975,"end":67.779,"text":"確實就是民眾黨的黃國昌委員有把這個機密文件帶出去那麼帶出去現在呢民進黨的立委也已經提告了是不是牽涉涉密我想檢調單位會去查"},{"start":69.64,"end":92.904,"text":"但是確實這個文件是拿出去了我想當時在場包括我在內包括部長在內許多我們在場的官兵都知道這件事情發生他絕對不是空穴來風不是抹黑因為有人真的拿出去至於這個文件拿出去了將近一分多鐘的時間點又拿了回來這個也是發生的事實"},{"start":97.745,"end":99.207,"text":"我現在不是要討論這個個別委員到底是不是牽涉機密因為檢調單是不是洩密檢調單我已經在查了可是這個事件確實發生而當時我相信我們可以召開這個機密會議一定某部分的也獲得了"},{"start":115.447,"end":134.229,"text":"美方的一些默契因為我們都知道有一些其實是不能公開的甚至於都還在跟美方接洽當中但是因為就是預算一直被卡在程序委員會甚至於是不要說這個所謂年度預算被卡住是連特別預算的條例都被卡住"},{"start":134.87,"end":162.106,"text":"所以為了因應立法院能夠有監督所以我們開了星期一的會議本席現在要詢問的是部長這個事件我想全世界都看到包括美方也知道這個會不會影響到我們接下來有關於特別預算武器或包括我們軍購這個部分受到影響尤其是信任上面的影響有沒有跟美方做溝通又或者是他們有沒有什麼反應"},{"start":164.027,"end":177.244,"text":"我覺得重點應該還是在於我們要有一個明確的一個在立法院的動作那如果遲遲不能夠復違的話我想"},{"start":179.403,"end":194.253,"text":"就我國防部立場來講我們絕對沒有辦法再跟美方做一個很好的溝通他會不斷的在問為什麼不能夠再往下走那這一次國防戰略報告也"},{"start":195.29,"end":221.166,"text":"也一再的強調就是說要在西太平洋第一島鏈建構巨子型的防禦嘛然後其中有一個很重要的就是要跟盟友夥伴來共同強化整體嚇阻能力所以他這個地方透露一個很明確的訊息就是說第一島鏈的國家大家都要一起承擔這個維護整個印太地區的和平穩定的一個責任"},{"start":221.986,"end":233.437,"text":"台灣是不可能在這樣子的一個所謂整體的嚇阻的這個能力置身事外的"},{"start":235.729,"end":259.27,"text":"這個這個我想如果你看日本要今年要增加到9兆日圓那這個折合台幣已經是1.8兆的這樣子的一個史上前所未見的一個國防預算那麼美國自己本身也要增加國防預算那菲律賓也在強化他的這個國防能力澳洲甚至紐西蘭那如果如果"},{"start":260.091,"end":284.065,"text":"我們在跟美方從事相關的這些交流軍事交流的時候那麼我們遲遲沒有看到我們的國防預算不管是年度部分的預算案或者是我們的特別條例甚至能夠護衛都不行我覺得我也不曉得要怎麼去說明跟解釋啦那我只是要強調就是說"},{"start":286.804,"end":312.95,"text":"我們台灣是第一島鏈的一個關鍵角色這美國國家安全戰略講得很清楚那我們自己要有這個建構自己的能力然後展現自我的決心這是對整個國際社會這是一個國際所關切的一個事項這個不跟好野黨派有任何的關聯這個應該是大家都要來全力支持的一個事項"},{"start":313.955,"end":340.495,"text":"部長其實就您所回應的我可不可以擷取一個重點就是說如果這個軍購一直被擋在程序委員會甚至於是連立法院都沒有審的時候會傳遞出一個所謂錯誤的訊息就是認為台灣不願意自己守護自己的這個第一島鏈上面應有的責任之外甚至於不願意一起來做共同防禦那麼包括我相信這個"},{"start":342.952,"end":345.815,"text":"站規司的黃司長其實也講了在1月22號的記者會當中您說國軍由於考量國家財力負荷建軍戰備的規劃所以長期以來都是以最低嚇阻能力"},{"start":359.451,"end":362.175,"text":"來勉勵為之其實坦白講喔我當時看到記者會聽到你講這句話我其實蠻震驚的因為顯然也是在一個非萬不得已的情況底下您才會說出這樣的話但是就如同現在我們看到的"},{"start":375.094,"end":387.843,"text":"只要是一旦預算被拖延那麼我們等於就是排不上隊排不上隊就要重排重排那麼包括我們都知道物價會上漲整個採購的費用也會隨著時間點而變成價格會變得更貴我們需要說現在我們所傳遞出來的訊息是不是就變成是只要"},{"start":400.431,"end":423.721,"text":"這個國民黨在立法院佔多數所有的歷史就會重演包括今天媒體有特別提到喔要復刻蓮湖會杯葛69次其實本席在準備這個題目的時候也回去找了2004年6月的時候當時是國民黨加親民黨在立法院佔了多數也是聯手在程序委員會杯葛後來因為屆期不連續到了2005年之後"},{"start":427.322,"end":452.212,"text":"再提一次當時同樣的一樣是被卡在程序委員會最後逼的只能用所謂的公務預算來做執行那麼再搭配今天出來的新聞我想要強調的是部長如果像這樣真的是復刻20年前的老劇本這才叫做老狗變不出新把戲他的把戲永遠都是只有"},{"start":452.932,"end":474.11,"text":"卡卡卡但是就像部長講的我們國家的安全其實沒有顏色那麼這樣子一再卡下去甚至被逼得回去因為這麼巧我們就是現在連總預算都還不審那如果說他們就是要逼迫變成跟2005年一樣所有的東西通通要推到年度總預算的話部長這樣該怎麼辦"},{"start":476.604,"end":492.28,"text":"我想我這邊還是呼籲就是說案子如果能夠互違那就是到了委員會就等於是有案有一個案那看要大家要怎麼討論對這個案的這個條例裡面的這個氣象我們要採購的這些裝備我們可以來討論如果現在連討論的機會都沒有的話我覺得我們就會"},{"start":501.184,"end":512.985,"text":"沒有辦法來說明為什麼連討論的這個案在委員會形成都沒有辦法這件事情對我來講我沒有辦法能夠理解"},{"start":515.8,"end":528.129,"text":"對其實喔這個本席會特別提出來這個是因為我們現在都講的是一個空的就像我所謂空的是說因為根本就像我們一個家裡你要買一些門鎖門窗甚至於藥裝這個所謂警衛系統"},{"start":531.852,"end":536.014,"text":"如果說只是這樣的一個想法都沒有辦法通過那麼如何來討論細目但是在這裡本席有一個請求啦就是希望國防部能夠包括司長黃司長你都已經提到了如果一旦延宕就會造成影響那麼到底如果延宕會具體造成哪些影響國防部你們是不是可以就一個我們目前國軍可能的包括缺口或者是騎乘"},{"start":560.703,"end":574.493,"text":"或者是相關的方案是不是可以有一個更明白的書面報告因為從剛剛部長所講的再到司長您所說的就是民眾可能無法理解我以2004年到2005年過程我們所"},{"start":578.816,"end":598.33,"text":"發生的事情就是一旦延宕那麼你就排不上騎乘然後就會造成我們現在所講的我們的國軍都是以最低的嚇阻能力來做進行這個對於我們第一線的士官兵這也不是一件好事啊所以可不可以具體的羅列出來一旦像這樣從宋晉來到現在這樣的延宕他所影響的具體的騎乘或是具體的影響到底是什麼有沒有可能書面化"},{"start":607.199,"end":634.415,"text":"我想我們都希望我們的能力能夠提升我們也希望我們的國軍能夠拿到好的裝備那我們會持續跟草野的立委來進行溝通我們也會跟公眾來進行溝通所以我們會努力在這方面我想我們委員的指教我們回去以後來競速來鑽擬這些需要跟草野的立委溝通還有跟公眾溝通的這些事項"},{"start":634.895,"end":645.082,"text":"好 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這個你一再強調過了我想你針對"},{"start":179.66,"end":191.728,"text":"當然這是你一個面向的看法但是我剛才提到了這個是否會造成我們產業的外移以及我們人才流失這樣的疑慮你針對這個問題來回答我們會知道說如果我們跟台美的供應鏈更鞏固的時候其實我們剛才經濟部也講到其實我們同步如果我們同步在國內台積電它國內有10億座的晶圓廠同時在建"},{"start":209.72,"end":237.659,"text":"然后相对其实在美国的六座我们刚才讲到2032年最多只有20%的财源对然后而且它获利增加的时候它就会资本支出就会增加然后资本支出增加的话其实对国内的投资的设厂反而是更为有利所以我们要从动态的整体观点来看我们赴美投资的这件事情不是我们直接去扣掉我们要投资的金额而是它会有一个反向回馈的"},{"start":238.82,"end":258.555,"text":"作用它會增加企業的獲利企業的獲利的資本支出就會增加資本支出增加也會增加在台灣的投資我想你也是沒回答到我的問題我告訴你一個事實其實如果說台積電到美國投資或者其他的相關的產業鏈到美國"},{"start":262.618,"end":287.493,"text":"這整個會造成我們人才很多都要赴美工作其實在新竹地區很多的這些相關的從業的工程師他都告訴我其實他們很可能以後就要遷移到國外他可能就要移民到美國去在那邊就是跟著整個公司在那邊生存發展"},{"start":288.693,"end":304.904,"text":"所以我們造成很多人才要過去所以造成說整個我們培養的人才到美國而我們相關的我們人才的培育能夠銜接的上嗎這個都是我們要考量的我跟委員說其實大家也滿關心這些"},{"start":306.005,"end":312.407,"text":"人才東進的這個議題第一個其實我們的研發核心的研發團隊絕對還會留在國內然後第二個其實企業赴海外設廠我們實際上我們有利於吸引全球人才為台廠所用譬如說台積電跟德國的薩克森邦德已經共同推動了一個台德半導體的人才培育計畫所以我透過全球佈局其實我可以把全球的半導體跟AI的人才吸引到台灣來"},{"start":335.012,"end":363.039,"text":"其實也會為我們所用那固然我們全球佈局當然有些人會到其他國家去其實要培養一個半導體整個產業鏈的這些工程師這個是台灣努力很久的一個成果所以說如果我們的這些高階工程師都因為陪著要到美國設廠他們也要跟著過去我們要重新培育一批這些高科技的工程師跟人才我想這是一個很大的工程"},{"start":364.019,"end":379.982,"text":"所以我覺得說你還是要很誠懇的告訴國人這樣子我們未來我們國發會要怎麼樣做人才的一個佈局我想這部分除了你剛才講的以外因為這聽起來好像馬上把國外的人力要引過來是這樣嗎沒有 就是"},{"start":380.442,"end":398.669,"text":"世界上現在我們最強的就是台灣的工程師是最強的那我們還要引進外國的工程師進來嗎應該是這樣說我想AI的創新發展基礎建設的擴大我覺得所有不只是台灣所有的國家都是要從育才 留才 攬才那我想我要告訴你"},{"start":403.086,"end":426.607,"text":"我想竹科的工程師他們被迫舉家要遷移到美國所以這個是對整個台灣的半導體供應鏈不管是公司也好或者人才外移到美國實際上對我們台灣的矽頓產業是產生很大的影響所以我想問你到底我們現在政府是否有看到台灣的第二座護國神山我們有第二座護國神山嗎"},{"start":430.495,"end":433.997,"text":"除了半導體產業以外我想軍工跟這些國家經濟安全比如說航太等等這個產業這個都是AI附隨的一個產業應該是我們槓桿AI的優勢我想這個都跟半導體有關跟晶片業都有關所以我們還是要去誠懇的呼籲政府"},{"start":453.149,"end":478.671,"text":"我們對這個一再對川普政府的這種談判的條件我覺得我們是一再的在讓步我們都表同意剛才當然鍾佳明委員講談判的結果是對我們許多的產業是正面的是我們是也很樂意看到這樣一個百分之十五不疊加的一個關稅但是我們從另外一個面向我還是希望政府能思考"},{"start":479.071,"end":493.244,"text":"如果這樣無條件的去接受川普的要求會帶來台灣整個產業以及人才流失的影響你們也要去思考好不好我想謝謝委員的提醒這週一是我們關注的議題謝謝主委 接下來請經濟部"},{"start":496.21,"end":513.588,"text":"市長經濟部對外說到2036年半導體的先進製程的佔比仍然是台灣80%美國20%剛才主委也有提到我想請問部長經濟部這樣的說法是根據什麼樣的事實或者理論"},{"start":515.116,"end":536.557,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個部分就是我們把台積電現在規劃中的還有現在建廠中的我們都把它加總起來得出了這樣的一個結果但是我們看到中進院的院長連前民他在上個禮拜1月22號對外說再怎麼努力"},{"start":537.418,"end":562.746,"text":"川普在任內台積電的先進製程應該不到15%的產能會在美國生產所以部長 何次長就算如果中經院說了只有15%的產能會移到美國經濟部你有去評估這樣的產能外移對未來台灣的經濟成長率與就業環境會有怎麼樣的影響嗎"},{"start":565.163,"end":573.611,"text":"這15%的半導體的技術的外移除了這15%以外你能夠保證說未來不會有下一個15%嗎跟文報告其實這是產線所以"},{"start":580.678,"end":607.414,"text":"半導體最重要的大腦都還是在台灣所以他為了要接近客戶所以把整個產線到這個接近客戶的地方去做生產那其實這個是我們一個產業其實市長你說為了要接近客戶我也可以很告訴你我們跟很多朋友在討論其實留在台灣更有競爭力你把整個廠移到美國以後這些人到美國跟美國廠買就好啦"},{"start":608.394,"end":630.101,"text":"台灣的半導體這些廠商還有競爭力嗎所以他們到美國繳稅就好啦所以我現在是搞不懂你的邏輯在哪裡一直說整個到美國是造成整個把跟美國什麼投資美國啊是協助我們台灣的半導體在美國的一個產業實力的一個延伸啊聽起來很美好啦"},{"start":631.061,"end":657.145,"text":"但是未來是不是這樣我覺得這個是值得觀察我要講得很實在因為大多數的人都有這樣的一個疑慮所以你現在講說是台灣是仍然是到2036台灣仍然80%美國仍然20%是的其實我們很擔心即便說到2036美國是20%所以我剛才問你是不是不只未來就是即便說是203620%2036以後"},{"start":660.746,"end":673.107,"text":"是不是又来一个百分之二十的产能又要转移到美国川普虚所无度你壮大美国但是你却弱化台湾"},{"start":674.33,"end":694.662,"text":"會不會有這樣一個的可能發生我想半導體產業他全球佈局是勢在必行的哪邊有商機其實在那個台積電大概就會往那個地方去移動我想我們的推估是有跟這個事實這樣的一個評估的這樣的一個基礎"},{"start":695.683,"end":719.395,"text":"所以也不見得說這樣的一個外移會讓我們台灣的產業可能就是弱化了反而我們可以用當地的人力然後當地的資源然後再來就是說我們可以接近客戶可以提供最好的最佳的這樣的一個服務所以這個是一個全球化這個世界級企業很重要的一個發展的一個策略"},{"start":719.795,"end":745.229,"text":"OK 這是政府的一個對相關政策的一個說法另外經濟部投審師在1月15號公布2025年全年外資來台投資的金額是大概113.9億美元沒有錯吧是相較於我們關稅談判後政府必須規劃2500億美元的信用保證藉以促進台灣企業到美國增加投資"},{"start":746.81,"end":768.757,"text":"所以我請問部長跟國發會的主委這兩個數字說白一點就是造成我們將會有2386.1億美金的一個貿易逆差鼓勵產業外移所以對於國家發展或者是經濟成長這次談判的結果難道政府不就是在幫忙美國壯大弱化台灣嗎"},{"start":771.631,"end":795.442,"text":"你信外資進來只有100多億你要叫2500億出去外投資這不是一年就2500億這個是逐年 赴美投資是每一年這樣累積的一個過程所以他絕對不會是說一下子就把所有的資金全部都投資在美國當然啦 是逐年逐年"},{"start":796.762,"end":811.092,"text":"當然我們就是整個數據看起來就是說這樣子可能就是造成我們整個產業都跑到美國這個跑到美國之後我們還要必須觀察到一個問題這個是否會造成我們失業人口的增加"},{"start":812.403,"end":830.664,"text":"各位新竹啊大新竹地區桃竹苗因為這個台積電的相關的這些產業鏈我們的不管是房價啦或者是這些這個民生物價都是全台第一名所得也是全台第一名但是我們目前觀察到"},{"start":831.965,"end":856.785,"text":"就是因为很多人忧心就是说如果台积电出走很可能就造成这几个地区相关的产业相关的不管是民生物价或者是房价都会造成一个下跌的情况大家有这样的一个忧心还有我们的整个技术是不是也会造成说外流的一个影响所以政府"},{"start":857.97,"end":885.02,"text":"對於這些相關的一個議題你們有沒有任何防備補救的規劃還是政府你還要依靠什麼去吸引外國人來投資呢是 跟委員報告其實就台積電的佈局他絕對是把這個最重要的研發中心放在台灣另外就是說他到國外的產線他一定是最先進的製程在台灣量產之後他才會到海外去"},{"start":886.441,"end":899.654,"text":"謝謝我們希望說是朝你這個目標去邁進但是我剛才提到這些問題我想我們站在在野的立場我們還是要提出來請政府要審慎的思考好不好好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167244","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167244","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb9c45f2fd618810afca81be291b9181784d0199fe87f28af80b2b3af3c693785235172bced87b3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:27:47 - 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部長早安 辛苦了部長請教一下1月17號一架中共的尖針無人機在凌晨5點44分進入東沙島領空這是國防部證實的消息但是我們是以用廣播警告的方式它在4分鐘之後離開我們的領空"},{"start":35.428,"end":54.676,"text":"國防部為此呢嚴正表示說這是調性不負責任的行為要受到譴責所以呢這次入侵領空的事件我們的反擊是用譴責的方式但是呢回顧過去包含當時的邱國正部長或者是您"},{"start":55.476,"end":68.243,"text":"在立法院裡面很多人都關心就是我們所謂的當中共有軍事的一些行動的時候我們的第一級或者行使自衛權的定義跟標準是什麼"},{"start":72.625,"end":83.147,"text":"當時邱部長在113年3月8號的時候說第一級的鑑定就是包含敵方的無人機或者是氣球侵入領空他不需要開炮他也不需要開槍我們就可以發動第一級這是邱部長的定義那您在113年6月6號"},{"start":95.85,"end":101.552,"text":"當時呢 這個也是 你的表示是說如果共軍對於台灣本島 外島 離島未經許可進入十二里領空領海就可以下令國軍行使自衛權 依比例進行自衛反擊所以我想請教一下部長"},{"start":117.916,"end":140.887,"text":"那麼以1月17號中共無人機侵入東沙島領空符不符合您所謂的可以進行自衛反擊就可以行使自衛權這邊有一個重點當然就是說依照他威脅的程度和比例性的來進行自衛反擊那如果說他"},{"start":142.85,"end":168.576,"text":"有對我們進行一個武裝攻擊的話我們當然就擁有採取武力進行自我防衛的好所以1月17號您認為我們沒有進行任何反擊而是讓他廣播驅離這樣子是合適的是不是要依照他的敵情來做一個研判那請問一下部長當天你是什麼時候知道中共無人機侵入了東沙島的領空"},{"start":169.481,"end":181.77,"text":"我有接獲回報大概什麼時候 因為他是很早 早上五點四十幾分但是他很快的離開是 我也是一早就被吵醒一早被吵醒 因為非常有可能你剛剛笑了 沒有錯啦如果他未來侵入領空 他不會幫你算時間 上班時間那他可能在夜裡都有可能好 那我的意思就是說"},{"start":192.278,"end":212.143,"text":"那如果今天他現在停留的是四分鐘如果他即便是經過我們廣播區裡他仍然在繼續停留他可能停留到二十分鐘 三十分鐘 四十分鐘我想請問那個行使自衛權反擊是不是要由部長下令還是要用什麼層級下令"},{"start":213.315,"end":229.893,"text":"我們在突發狀況處置規定以及聯合戰略計畫都有律定授權的舉證跟交戰規則部隊可以視敵情的威脅予以應處好 所以東沙島的軍官就可以視他的威脅性可以行使 百吉"},{"start":230.874,"end":248.087,"text":"威脅的程度如果他認為被進行有遭受到武裝攻擊剛剛已經講了他就可以行使自衛權的反應所以你的6月113年這裡有涉及到一個合比例性的問題所以你113年6月6號的那個說法仍然是確立的"},{"start":250.178,"end":267.418,"text":"我想我們就是依照他聯合國的憲章51條我們會有行使自衛權的一個固有權利那只是說這個行使自衛權當然就是以威脅的程度我們和比例的進行部長我還是要說因為侵入領空跟沒有侵入領空這個界線仍然是非常不一樣的"},{"start":271.582,"end":292.476,"text":"即便他不是本島 他是來自東 就是在東沙島但是大家也知道 其實我們也擔心中共有所謂的奪島計畫所以我覺得這件事情 還是要讓外界知道我們其實是可以進行反擊 而不是只有口頭上的譴責另外請教一下 剛才那個陳委員也請教你"},{"start":293.686,"end":299.85,"text":"最近全世界都在關心中共中央軍委一下又有兩個委員落馬那整個七個中央委員裡面現在只剩下兩個所以在外界的評估裡面一種是比較樂觀的評估所以你看這個他們就是首腦"},{"start":313.26,"end":319.142,"text":"當你這個手腦 軍事的手腦這個腦子七分就是七個有五個都已經空掉了之後呢那麼對於台灣的威脅就會降低因為在這樣的狀況之下不大可能去對台灣發動大規模的軍事的行動您同意嗎這是有一些學者專家這樣認為"},{"start":338.843,"end":357.683,"text":"我們認為對我們的威脅不會因為個別高層的落馬而就能夠下一個結論性的他不是個別他現在七個人裡面只剩兩個了另外一個是我們這個張生命剛升上去要更關注的是他對我們他的軍費的一個增長對我們的威脅的他們的"},{"start":358.484,"end":361.226,"text":"所以部長採取的仍然比較謹慎 沒有那麼樂觀我覺得這個態度也是對的"},{"start":388.584,"end":405.827,"text":"因為事實上他另外兩個李尚福苗華那麼他們事實上在2024年就落馬了可是大家也看到在去年仍然有兩次大規模的圍台軍演那其實很多人是覺得說在這些軍事首腦即使他們落馬可是他這些圍台軍演看起來也是按照他們原來的計畫並沒有因此而落差"},{"start":414.769,"end":422.032,"text":"所以也有人擔心的是即便他們也許內部高層有人說這是整肅也有人說這是鬥爭但是無論如何對台灣以這幾年發動七次的大規模維台軍演去年就有達到兩次之多所以我們仍然去應該要嚴正以待所以部長你採取的態度是比較屬於我剛才講的後者嗎"},{"start":443.211,"end":466.72,"text":"所以我們還是會 剛剛講就是說中共沒有放棄武力換台中共的軍費每年都以百分之七到八的幅度成長中共不斷地在我們周遭進行聯合戰備警巡從事洗澡 從事針對性的軍演中共對我們的威脅始終是存在的而且是日益嚴峻的所以我們從來不敢輕忽"},{"start":468.04,"end":495.172,"text":"不會因為看到說哪一位落馬那我們就輕忽我們應該的一個備戰所以賴總統說2027年完成就是清台的準備目前我們還是這個看法嗎我們國軍的立場就是我們要要達到一個高戰備能力然後我們要持續的維持這個高戰備能力而且不斷的在提升我們的戰備能力這是我們的態度"},{"start":495.783,"end":496.734,"text":"好 OK 谢谢"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}