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歡迎您中選會的吳太理主委 再次歡迎司法院民視廳的林廳長 歡迎您法務部的楊檢察官 歡迎您第一題 這個上一次我們已經聽到內政部中選會還有司法院的說明大家都已經有了一個"},{"start":756.494,"end":782.191,"text":"心中都有一個決定說擇其在意那現在台灣民眾黨團又在發文又針對這個選罷法我們今天有六個題目等一下請台灣民眾黨團針對第一個題目要先發言第二題是衛星廣播電視法修正案第三題是一百一十五年杜總預算新興計畫先行動之案第四題是邀請行政院院長就台美關稅談判進行專案報告案第五題是住宅法修正案"},{"start":783.68,"end":802.755,"text":"第六題是黨產條例修正案那我們現在從第一題第一題台灣民眾黨團所正式發文來那也要提醒一下台灣民眾黨團上次我們聽完列席的官員報告還有各黨團決定擇期再議這個案但是今天又來了所以請台灣民眾黨團請先說明謝謝張七開委員請"},{"start":810.267,"end":836.995,"text":"公職員選舉罷免法第67條第69條修正草案請民眾黨上次提的這個公職人員這個罷免法這個修正最主要要推動的是那個是那個不在即投票對我們是那部分今天是32跟43現在就是"},{"start":838.536,"end":863.055,"text":"當選後沒有報到或者是退選的那個保證金要提問那是不是請國民黨團民進黨團簡單表達一下意見柯董事長請那個柯董事長講的也很清楚上次我們已經達成共識擇其在意表達非常清楚那請國民黨團羅志強市長請"},{"start":867.717,"end":893.585,"text":"因為上次有做折旗在意的結論,我們尊重民眾黨,如果覺得折旗在意的話,我們就繼續維持張旗改跟陳昭之委,這個案子我們就折旗在意,下會期好不好,會更完善折旗我們再行協商好嗎,因為上次我們上個禮拜才做成決定要表決還是要下決?下會期我們再進行折旗好不好"},{"start":899.385,"end":912.495,"text":"好,我們第一題選罷法,我們下會期再處理我們下會期擇期,我們再來協商,好謝謝謝謝列席的官員,謝謝我們第二題是衛星廣播電視法修正案"},{"start":928.271,"end":956.816,"text":"好 謝謝我們列席的國家通訊傳播委員會陳代理主委好 謝謝您請坐經管會陳專門委員好 歡迎您經濟部商業發展署的熊組長內政部民政司的蔡世察法務部的汪參事好 歡迎您"},{"start":958.473,"end":964.856,"text":"司法院的陳廷長 歡迎您行政院主計總署的吳專門委員 歡迎 謝謝針對衛星廣播電視法 麻煩國民黨團來新聞 請國民黨團表達意見"},{"start":998.644,"end":1008.597,"text":"那衛廣法我們上次這個政黨協商的部分其實本來只剩下第19條66條之一就是還沒有協商的結論那但是因為後來這個民進黨沒有簽署這個"},{"start":1015.366,"end":1038.832,"text":"就是我們已經協商通過但是沒有完成簽署嘛那是不是要請民眾黨團表示一下說是哪些條文還有對民進黨團有哪些地方是有意見的對已經通過的協商的條文好 肉圓講得非常清楚民進黨團既然有把握意見請表述你們的理由 請好 有關衛生法講白了就是中間條款我們無法接受"},{"start":1040.25,"end":1065.175,"text":"柯文哲講得非常清楚他無法接受那請台灣民眾黨團張祺凱 張副總統請表達意見衛廣法上次有草野協商的時候有通過了我們的公開透明這個條款就是只要是衛星廣播電視他有這個拿了政府的這個標案或者是補助必須定期要在網站上面NCC指定網站上面要公開"},{"start":1066.448,"end":1086.682,"text":"那這一部分我比較強調為什麼我當初會做這樣一個修訂是因為民進黨本來舉的是黨政經退出退出媒體那廣電三法裡面上也明定說一定要確保新聞自由跟媒體的這個獨立可是前日有發生一個就是三立入主的這個仲加的這個案子而且"},{"start":1087.703,"end":1102.228,"text":"這段時間發現每一年基於政府重大的標案跟補助很多都集中在某些媒體的上面所以我們才上次會要求做這個決定上次大家也已經通過了"},{"start":1103.391,"end":1117.079,"text":"可是我要提兩個很重要的點第一個就是NCC在2024年3月那時候本席就有質詢了當時的主委陳耀祥在交通委員會他親自跟我承諾說不只是修衛廣法"},{"start":1118.513,"end":1140.417,"text":"他修整個廣電三法要落實民眾黨所謂的公開透明所以包括這個有限廣播電視法跟廣播電視法到現在都沒有提出來所以一方面我們要堅持就是黨政之間推出媒體是民進黨當初喊的請民進黨不要反對也特別不要反對這個公開透明那我們現在願意給時間就是把"},{"start":1143.098,"end":1160.842,"text":"把這個上次衛廣法馬上要實施這個是不是要廣電三法同時來可是我們要求今天NCC要明確的承諾你說六個月內要把這個三合法的法案同時修正案同時提出來我們到時候要做一個修正動議這樣子好 謝謝張經理副總編補充意見 副總編我們要再次回顧"},{"start":1173.699,"end":1196.566,"text":"這個民進黨從黨外一直到執政不斷地強調台灣是民主的國家必須要有新聞的自由黨政區所有啊與政黨有關的這些相關的這些組織跟體系要來退出啊媒體退出校園退出軍方結果民進黨這樣的要求"},{"start":1197.962,"end":1219.77,"text":"結果國民黨完全退出軍中包括校園包括媒體民進黨趁勢比過去封建的國民黨還要更加的腐敗更加的控制更加的把這個黑手深入校園深入媒體深入軍中所以今天"},{"start":1221.96,"end":1238.336,"text":"把NCC當作執政者的這樣的一個控制媒體的一個打手動輒只要跟執政黨跟民進黨立場相左的這些媒體就受到一連串的檢查一連串的打壓"},{"start":1239.862,"end":1259.419,"text":"甚至把這樣的一個第四權的民主執照這個新聞執照來把它調造這是非常非常離譜的一個事情所以今天要求公開透明甚至要有彈性就是讓媒體的新聞自由在台灣留下一線生機我們在這裡再一次的強調"},{"start":1261.621,"end":1276.477,"text":"民進黨應該回頭思案不要忘記當時建黨的初衷好好的來支持讓NCC讓相關的法律能夠更加的透明更加的有彈性來支持台灣的媒體民主自由"},{"start":1277.312,"end":1301.883,"text":"好 謝謝那各位黨團幹部我們一條一條來根據朝野協商所達成的共識以及保留部分我們來順一下好不好一條一條來好 第四條請大家看一下目前是不與修正維持現行條文請問各黨團幹部有意見嗎沒有意見好 第五條是照協商條文通過陳培鈺委員有意見嗎對啊好 那我們就"},{"start":1303.154,"end":1315.909,"text":"反對保留了我們送院會處理第十條我們照協商條文通過請問有意見嗎反對好我們保留第十條送院會處理第十二條之一"},{"start":1317.054,"end":1344.855,"text":"現在這個陳培宇委員可能你要表達意見柯總召請表達意見反對反對我們保留送院會這裡沒關係沒關係我們沒關係他現在保留了第十七條十二條十二條之一十二條之一我剛有強調因為我在質詢的時候NCC是說三個法同時都要提那現在沒有提嘛所以我們現在就說把這個時間例如說給六個月的這個時間然後你們提出來以後我們再來審第十二條這樣子"},{"start":1345.972,"end":1368.915,"text":"我們有提這個負債結議我們就是保留送醫院費我們有提這個負債結議因為他們是有反對意見我問他不是說對 負債結議你順著講好 請羅志強署長請聽議長報告一下剛剛那個民眾黨的意見大概是說因為希望衛廣跟有廣的這個相關的規範能夠一致化嘛那因為現在只有衛廣沒有有廣的一致化所以基本上"},{"start":1369.855,"end":1384.725,"text":"應該是不予處理這個條文但是附帶決議是說將來應該要一併的油管跟衛管來處理油管透明化的問題所以其實這條文是今天如果說民進黨也反對那就不予爭定喔"},{"start":1385.729,"end":1403.469,"text":"對,不予爭定啦,不予爭定好,那我們就不予爭定好,謝謝,第12條之一,不予爭定我們現在進入17條各位黨團各位要犯案,直接舉手因為我剛剛問的都是他們有保留意見的所以我特別問一下民進黨團的有意見,你可以隨時可以舉手陳佩玉署長,請表達意見柯總召請"},{"start":1404.813,"end":1429.782,"text":"反對反對 那反對的我們就保留了 好吧 送院會那個NCC代理主委你有意見隨時可以隨時可以發言 好嗎不用客氣 好不好我怕我萬一沒有點到你 對你不好意思好 我們就第17條我們快速就是保留送院會處理好 進入第18條目前為止第18條我們是不是照協商條文通過反對"},{"start":1433.611,"end":1447.922,"text":"好 柯總召提出反對我們保留送院會處理好 我們現在進入第19條也是保留送院會的 柯總召好 第19條保留送院會囉"},{"start":1449.503,"end":1471.938,"text":"NCC陳代理處,您有意見嗎?我都沒有尊重你發言,我都不好意思。好,OK,他也同意。我們第20條,不許修正,維持現行條文,大家同意嗎?同意。羅志強署長,張其凱副總召。同意。好,我們第20條,不許修正,維持現行條文,謝謝。第49條,不許修正,維持現行條文,可以嗎?可以。"},{"start":1472.984,"end":1500.094,"text":"同意好謝謝我們第50條照協商條文通過有意見嗎柯主席反對明確表示反對我們第50條我們就保留聳院會處理張氣凱副總裁有意見嗎好謝謝第58條之一照協商條文通過可以嗎更正更正更正再修正因為他提案是58條之一"},{"start":1506.191,"end":1523.595,"text":"不予增訂了?不予增訂了?第58條之一不予增...不予增訂了?58現在提案是第58?他提案是58條之一,然後條字改過,所以原先提案是58條之一提案是58條之一,條字已經改過,現在是58條之一"},{"start":1527.588,"end":1544.731,"text":"不予增訂請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見五十七條之一我們現在同意不予增訂可是我們剛剛落就是本黨要求公開透明那個一定要落實喔而且是廣電商法的同時所以今天NC職務委員會在代理職務委員會在現場六個議員的一定要提真正我們的布袋結一定要提出來好OK陳主委請表達意見"},{"start":1545.878,"end":1565.724,"text":"跟主席跟各位人報告這邊我們會盡量的做但是因為NCC這段時間的運作法案沒辦法提出透過行政體系的版本因為我們六個月我比較沒辦法沒有人有把握做到可不可以我們盡快就是法案要經過NCC委員會議我們現在沒有委員會議主席"},{"start":1568.12,"end":1594.202,"text":"跟總統跟院長講 趕快提啊我們盡量 趕快把委員補齊我們就堅持六個月好 那我們第五十八條之一就不予爭定大家有意見嗎沒有意見 好 第五十八條之一不予爭定現在進入第六十六條之一我們保留送院會處理不予爭定 六十六條之一不予爭定 大家要表達意見同意"},{"start":1596.325,"end":1598.707,"text":"沒有意見我們第66條之一,我們不予爭定我們附帶決議來,我們先念一遍附帶決議,請各位黨黨幹部仔細聆聽"},{"start":1611.84,"end":1638.588,"text":"未促进资讯透明及公众参与对于具广大影响力之新闻及财经新闻频道时应公开揭露各项公共利益有关之重要资讯以落实股权透明财务透明及补助透明之原则经考量卫星广播电视事业无线电视事业有线电视事业新闻台间之横评与公平竞争原提案国家通讯传播委员会应于六个月内"},{"start":1640.048,"end":1658.543,"text":"廣泛徵詢閱聽大眾專家學者及廣電業者之意見並提出修法版本提案人台灣民眾黨立法院黨團宣布完畢那個各黨團幹部針對台灣民眾黨團所提的附帶決議有沒有寶貴意見柯總召 副總召"},{"start":1664.419,"end":1690.047,"text":"剛剛代理主委剛剛代理主委所講到說這個是不是啊六個月你說目前委員會開不成兩個很簡單的事實嘛那你要趕快請敦請賴總統盡快提名要社會大眾可以接受的人像這次的這個中選會委員一樣嘛可以徵詢各個"},{"start":1692.335,"end":1715.852,"text":"政黨提出更適合的人選大家經過廣泛的討論以後廣納社會賢達來到NCC能夠真的對新聞自由能夠尊重的人而不是成為御用的打手在執行命令的人然後沒有連任離開了NCC以後再來嗆NCC是一言堂"},{"start":1718.505,"end":1725.05,"text":"兩位離開的委員公開的表示在NCC裡面就是議員堂上面只是怎麼樣就怎麼做"},{"start":1726.465,"end":1751.985,"text":"我們不希望這樣的情況去控制了我們國內的新聞自由所以在這裡希望你趕快反映賴總統盡快提出適當的人選也徵詢各個政黨提出適當的人選我相信NTT很快就能夠圓滿的組成這其一啦那其二你說現在委員會沒有辦法開但你們也可以把你們的意見現有委員的意見"},{"start":1754.286,"end":1782.278,"text":"徵詢各單位NCC內部各單位的專業的意見把它彙整起來彙整起來我們並沒有要求你NCC一定要委員會通過你可以先送進來給各政黨你們彙整的意見是怎麼樣我們也可以當作這是NCC的主要意見我們也會尊重你們的意見之後我們再行來提相關的修正版本大家一起來討論所以六個月真的太久了"},{"start":1783.157,"end":1790.545,"text":"真的太久了NCC這麼龐大的組織這麼多專業的人員需要六個月嗎代理主委需要六個月嗎跟總統報告我們會盡快處理就是幕僚作業我們都會加快處理三個月"},{"start":1801.016,"end":1827.014,"text":"還是維持這個提案黨團的那就六個月吧 好 謝謝你 那我們恭候 好不好這個求高德忠啊那個副總召 現在你講的都非常好 重點是這個附帶決議你有沒有意見沒有意見 同意好他現在是在 又有意見發表了張 齊 凱 副總召這個附帶這個附帶決議非常的重要同意啦 都同意不是不是 這個附帶我要強調一下因為現在主委還在講說六個月可能太長 我要先強調一下"},{"start":1828.635,"end":1840.381,"text":"這個是重中之重 這從柯文哲選總統的時候台灣民眾黨就提出了這個公開透明然後第一個會期 兩年前這個案子就提出來了終於 我們終於過了 為什麼因為人民已經受不了了 現在民進黨政府現在把很多政府的這個標案還有一些補助都給了某些特定這個媒體這特定媒體又幫你們講話甚至變成是民進黨執政黨的第二文宣部委"},{"start":1855.388,"end":1877.554,"text":"這命都已經受不了 要求要改我們現在終於在衛廣法這部分已經完成了這部分那現在因為你們提出來說還有廣電三法要同時嘛 對不對所以我們是給你時間喔我們是要求六個月內你的三法全部都要提出來不只不能偷 你還要去加速 還要去進行所以是兩個現在那個國民黨都已經要求要收減成三個月啦"},{"start":1878.334,"end":1898.311,"text":"我們現在提了六個頁,當然我們可以先同意六個頁可是有兩個一定要做到第一個就是廣電商法,同時都要提出來第一個一定要改正目前黨檢沒一提的這個弊病之前民進黨自己在講那個什麼黨政經退出沒一提結果現在有嗎?民進黨手是不是伸到媒體裡面去了所以這個法案我們非常非常的堅持好,謝謝陳培一委員請簡短二要請"},{"start":1904.383,"end":1918.173,"text":"好 謝謝韓院長提醒我簡短扼要我要說張祺凱你又在造謠就一直要惡意指涉某一家電視台我覺得我們剛剛討論的氣氛是很和諧的我不知道你為什麼要這樣說那我之前已經有相關資料都已經告訴大家了我就不要再講哪一家媒體"},{"start":1919.614,"end":1944.977,"text":"踢台2016年起連年獎獲大俄政府表揚2017年有超過1.9億元2021年2.6億2022年4.182023年5.58到底是什麼特定電視台的意思我覺得就法案協商的時候就就法論法就事論事喔好不好我覺得不要再惡意的造謠那我真的希望我們今天協商可以和平處理謝謝陳培委員簡短不扼要攻防很激烈好柯中超請"},{"start":1945.762,"end":1974.006,"text":"我還是要相信針對內容不要再提外的插播好不好謝謝柯總長那個謝謝院長因為剛剛院長在問附帶決議那本席剛剛是回應代理主委他的說法因為他講了我們當然要回應嘛那更重要的是對你可以回應他當然可以我剛剛是回應主委那當然附帶決議本身我們是覺得是應該要做到的我們沒有意見也希望能夠做到"},{"start":1974.585,"end":1979.537,"text":"好 謝謝大家平行近期下我們先來唸一下協商草稿 請大家確認一下好嗎好 開始唸"},{"start":1986.206,"end":2009.874,"text":"謝謝 呃 協商的結論 請大家仔細聆聽一 第四條 第二十條 第四十九條 六十六條之一 均不予修正 維持現行條文二 增訂第十二條之一及增訂第五十八條之一 均不予增訂三 第五條 第十條 第十七條 第十八條 第十九條及第五十條均保留 送請院會處理四 增列附帶決議項 如復見"},{"start":2013.035,"end":2034.234,"text":"五 其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過六 本案院會進行處理時廣泛討論由各黨團推派一位發言逐條討論我們就不再發言逐條時保留條文一 各黨團版本進行表決各黨團可以嗎可以好 麻煩大家請簽字謝謝對 如復見通過了好"},{"start":2041.227,"end":2065.962,"text":"謝謝NCC我們列席的所有的官員,謝謝您好,謝謝大家的今天參與我們現在進入第四我們進入第三題115年度總預算新興計畫先行動之案謝謝,麻煩請"},{"start":2068.678,"end":2096.027,"text":"謝謝因為我們空間有限換場的速度要稍微快一點點拜託大家時間壓力很大行政院政務的副秘書長阮昭雄副秘書長到了嗎好謝謝歡迎您財政部阮次長財政部阮次長內政部董次長"},{"start":2097.366,"end":2121.537,"text":"好 請國防部徐副部長好 歡迎您教育部張料萬堅政務次長好 歡迎您經濟部何政務次長好 歡迎您謝謝勞動部洪部長好 歡迎衛福部呂政務次長好 歡迎歡迎 請坐環境部彭部長"},{"start":2125.327,"end":2149.852,"text":"行政院主席總署陳副主席長請歡迎行政院人事行政總署張副人事長歡迎請坐河東安全委員會陳主任委員歡迎您中央選舉委員會吳代理主委歡迎您故宮博物院蕭院長歡迎交通部陳政務次長歡迎農業部黃政務部長政務次長歡迎"},{"start":2156.49,"end":2167.506,"text":"運動部理部長好 歡迎數維發展部葉次長歡迎財政部的阮次長到了嗎阮次長"},{"start":2171.564,"end":2189.983,"text":"沒關係我等,因為財政部非常重要的簽法,阮市長到了嗎?今天是阮市中心會啊,我們新政院的阮副秘書長,財政部的阮市長,阮市中心會開會啊好,謝謝,我們進入國民黨團來韓,請國民黨團先說明"},{"start":2198.264,"end":2205.35,"text":"關於重大急迫的民生預算新興資本跟新增計劃的部分"},{"start":2206.107,"end":2234.08,"text":"那事實上民進黨過去一直在宣傳說包括TPAS生育津貼老舊校舍非常擔心說今天無法動之造成說延宕的一個情況所以今天國民黨我們跟民眾黨提出來先同意與動之那當然按照我們的那個議事程序有一個月的冷凍期所以在這邊我還是公開也鄭重的"},{"start":2234.66,"end":2255.445,"text":"呼籲民進黨的黨團能夠針對這38項就是新增計畫的一些急迫的民生預算能夠不要再堅持這個所謂一個月的協商期那如果今天大家達成共識的話其實禮拜五的院會就可以通過這個同意動之案"},{"start":2255.965,"end":2275.941,"text":"那我覺得這才是放下黨爭名聲優先的一個至少是一個示範啦否則的話很多東西基本上我覺得對國民黨來說有些立場我們覺得必須要守住民進黨可能有自己立場要守住但是不管怎麼講TPAS通勤族的權益生育津貼老舊銷售這個部分的話能不能請我們的民進黨黨團高抬貴手"},{"start":2280.825,"end":2296.672,"text":"能夠讓這些預算可以先於動之來實現民進黨強調民生的這樣的一個所謂的政策的用意那一起來讓這些預算可以先於動之 以上好 謝謝被呼籲的柯總召請發言我仔細聽 滿口瞎話"},{"start":2300.654,"end":2314.922,"text":"這個總計算要過是全部過了不是讓你挑戰解釋的你這根本在擋針嘛 你要放下擋針你用政治都是手法在處理國家總計算 這個棋局不可我們對於這樣的事無法接受 好不好"},{"start":2316.656,"end":2346.061,"text":"院長 無好接受柯總總表達非常清楚麻煩請台灣民眾黨團請表達意見柯總總說要全部過去年後來就全部過啦去年你們也是違法編列啊嚴肅你盡管補償不給啊工薪收購不給啊 對不對那後來不就是草野協商完之後行政院長也簽名啦後來不就全部 婦委就討論就全部過啦那去年成功的模式你們要全部過為什麼你們不趕快提呢"},{"start":2347.741,"end":2354.444,"text":"現在我要先更正一個很重要的概念第一個現在宗嘉斌就不在了宗嘉斌跟陳培宇在1月22號在黃國昌跟羅志強聯合主持的這個協商裡面抹黑造謠然後那個牌子說現在我們只要審的這是要放行的新興計畫只有2%你們大跑以後我問了所有的部會的首長"},{"start":2375.732,"end":2397.75,"text":"請問你們薪水有沒有領到嗎沒有 你舉手啊因為依照預算法的規定只要是去年的預算只要是延續性的預算一毛錢都沒有減 馬上就可以執行你們拿來一個2% 請你們等一下等一下 趕快澄清不要再造謠 不要再抹黑第二更重要為什麼今天有提這個新興的計畫"},{"start":2400.083,"end":2404.965,"text":"不就是民進黨一直在那邊叫說TPAS沒有嗎防洪治水沒有嗎你們在叫我們幫你們解決問題人民要的我們趕快給你們剛剛柯總召講的你要治本就是像去年結果你們不要做現在提那個治標的依照預算法本來比較緊急的立法院通過就可以先動結果你們放毒不解毒結果現在我們要給人民最需要的新興計畫你們又來擋你們這樣怎麼對得起人民呢"},{"start":2430.715,"end":2440.459,"text":"所以我們現在鄭重的呼籲第一個說話用不著聽你傻傻的講第一個你不要再講不要再亂講現在我在發言請不要亂講好不好現在溫度升高了我跟你講的是預算法你在這邊這麼資深的你預算法都弄不清楚嗎我還要照道理來講對啊你照預算法你沒有講道理我講了哪一點沒有道理你們澄清淫謀黑的只有2%這個趕快澄清第二個有資本照去年模式趕快把金人加薪每個月3萬塊把警消人員所的替代率8成"},{"start":2459.747,"end":2462.428,"text":"你們只要簽白紙黑字簽完我們就開始審啊這不叫資本嗎這成本就過了啊不就是你要的嗎你們然後呢你們又在喊要治標治標我們就提的方案你們又不通過你們這樣怎麼對得起人品你們現在擋的是什麼防洪治水的錢耶T-box的錢你們也繼續擋嗎"},{"start":2480.031,"end":2502.774,"text":"我呼籲啊 禮拜五就處理 進行表決趕快讓這筆錢可以通過 可以救急趕快治本又治標在民進黨團陳培宇書記長發言之前 容我提醒一下程旭等一下行政部門要推派一位我想請阮副理事長準備發言好嗎好 陳培宇委員 陳培宇書記長麻煩現在溫度升高降低一點 請"},{"start":2505.974,"end":2515.999,"text":"報告韓院長溫度不是我決定是所有出席的委員決定當然還包含您跟周萬蘭秘書長我要鄭重抗議溫度不是我來決定的再來我要感謝羅志強還有張祺凱你們都說了民進黨一直提醒你們一直提醒你們TPAX有問題治水有問題生育補助有問題學校有問題所以你們現在怕了我告訴你我那天不是落跑我是懶得跟你們講話而且呢你為什麼不敢承認就是因為民進黨點出問題"},{"start":2534.887,"end":2537.35,"text":"你們現在採用這個爛方法想要解決我們總預算從什麼時候送進來8月29號送進來到今天153天了你為什麼不敢面對總預算你剛剛自己講得很好啊用去年的方法去年什麼方法去年就是每一個委員辦公室都認真的提案"},{"start":2550.106,"end":2555.068,"text":"讓總預算副委實質討論當然你們去年用了很爛的方法你們亂刪亂砍所以你們現在不敢面對就像沈博洋說的你們不想讓人民看見你們亂刪亂砍預算的嘴臉所以你現在連總預算都不敢審了就是你不敢審了還好意思講用去年的方法你自己講聽清楚把這句話還給你還有再次強調我不是落跑不要再造謠了我是根本就不想跟你們講話"},{"start":2572.495,"end":2575.896,"text":"今天我們尊重韓院長召開這個院長等級的協商所以我出面告訴你總預算你們不審最大的問題就是你們還有我要再說不是民進黨不給錢現在是你們藍白不給錢你看著這一張張旗刊你看著這一張所以你要告訴我不列在這個上面都不重要嗎全台灣人民看清楚了"},{"start":2592.543,"end":2595.744,"text":"是羅志強 張啟凱告訴全台灣人民其他的都不重要其他的你們都不想審其他的你們都不想討論你們不是要實質監督嗎為什麼不敢復為審查為什麼不敢實質討論還是你們辦公室因為覺得自己要畢業了所以連預算提案連提都不理要不要告訴大家預算提案要不要寫預算要不要審查預算要不要討論然後進到院會表決像去年一樣話再還給你像去年一樣"},{"start":2619.469,"end":2646.227,"text":"這保證沒有降溫,只有增溫,好不好張經理,你不要生氣,看我眼睛我現在請行政院發言之後,我要進行宣告了好,阮副理事長,請發言是,謝謝主席讓我可以有降溫的機會這非常感謝能夠讓行政院發表意見不過行政院的立場很堅定,也一貫我們期待總預算可以儘速復違來審查我想這個才是福國利民最好的做法,以上"},{"start":2647.803,"end":2669.159,"text":"謝謝阮副秘書長的說明,對不起我要做宣告,因為我們下面還有好幾個題目。第一,我做宣告三點,請大家稍後可以表達不同意見。一,第三題新興計畫的協商,各黨團目前意見不一致,還要繼續溝通。目前這個案子還在冷凍期,如果沒有協商結論,院會也沒有辦法進行處理。"},{"start":2670.512,"end":2698.519,"text":"因此希望大家還是保持溝通二 行政部門也請行政院主席長將經常性的經費及延續性的計畫較上年度各機關別增加數額及項目提供給各黨團參考主席 副主席長到了嗎我剛剛講這個很重要喔好 第三 本案擇期再協商請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見請副總召"},{"start":2701.458,"end":2726.077,"text":"國民黨團立場非常清楚總預算當然是要依法編列國會才能夠依法審查剛剛講了這麼久一個違法的行政院把總統都已經公告國會通過刪除的法律總統府公告總統他一個人可以決定總預算要不要編這是什麼政府啊"},{"start":2727.165,"end":2755.534,"text":"一人可以決定啊國會通過的東西他可以不實施然後叫在野黨來審查違法的總預算是誰先不遵守法律的這第一個第二個今天也是執政黨要求對這些新興計畫人民的權益重不重要再三的呼籲以後我們才把這些預算把它抽出來"},{"start":2756.755,"end":2768.39,"text":"尤其是TPAS北北 基桃 台中還有很多的縣市基層的通勤族都需要我們把它抽出來以後竟然執政黨在反對我們終於看到啊"},{"start":2771.351,"end":2796.324,"text":"什麼叫台上演一場台下又另外一場完全不一樣的面貌更重要的是一直在講2% 2%我想民眾黨剛剛有強調這個2%的事情我們在這裡正式跟全國國人報告立法院預算中心已經把所有的數字都算出來只要是"},{"start":2800.791,"end":2824.373,"text":"持續性的計畫通通可以執行所以115年的總預算目前可以執行的部分有92.5%92.5%92.5%可以執行我們不曉得說我們擋了預算只有2%能放行這個到底是哪裡來的說法"},{"start":2826.321,"end":2850.339,"text":"我想我們預算中心給了我們很清楚的一個資料大家就法論法要講事實不要老是用控制的這些媒體宣傳工具不斷的造謠 不斷的造謠 不斷的造謠這是我們所不樂見的各種話都可以講但是要有所根據我們今天講的部分都是依照"},{"start":2852.132,"end":2880.544,"text":"國會預算中心所提出來的相關的資料沒有一點是我們自己加油添醋的所以這個部分我們一定要講清楚讓全國國人了解九十二九十二點五的今年的總預算通通可以執行那另外的百分之七點五我們講的很簡單只要行政院依法執行國會通過的相關的這些"},{"start":2882.054,"end":2896.356,"text":"法律案跟預算案更重要的是總統府已經公告了請卓榮泰應該依法編列依法執行好 謝謝我們這個案本案則期再協商謝謝列席的官員我們進入第四案"},{"start":2897.635,"end":2921.377,"text":"剛剛已經宣告過了,我們再一個發言完就要折截謝謝各位列席官員,謝謝喔第四案就是台灣民眾黨團建警院會作成決議邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長就台美關稅談判進程方針原則及產業衝擊影響評估於一個月之內進行專案報告請公決案相關事宜由台灣民眾黨團提議"},{"start":2924.684,"end":2929.732,"text":"來我們請列席的官員謝謝大家我們因為要清場一下謝謝接下來我們請提案的台灣民眾黨團請表達意見"},{"start":2939.457,"end":2960.154,"text":"最近這個網路上瘋傳一段影片就是2014年的4月2號當時的立法委員鄭麗君也就是現在的副院長鄭麗君質詢文化部的部長榮應台他罵說馬政府簽署這個服貿的過程黑箱"},{"start":2961.832,"end":2978.012,"text":"簽訂前不能講甚至到後面只能審不能改說當時的政府啊傲慢黑箱到底現在人民就問了這次民進黨政府在這次的這個關稅談判不就是正好自打嘴巴就是鄭立堅講的"},{"start":2979.842,"end":3008.145,"text":"過程黑箱簽訂前不能講事後只能審不能改傲慢黑箱到底嗎所以台灣民眾黨今天正式的這個提案我們邀請行政院院長率同各部會首長就台美關稅談判的進程方針還有原則跟台灣產業可能受到這個衝擊的影響評估在一個月內到立法院提出專案報告並被質詢我也提醒最近的一個重點"},{"start":3009.346,"end":3013.407,"text":"包括賴總統一直在強調說南韓的國會還沒有審就要求說這是台美關稅簽回來的我們全部都要照單簽收要趕快過這裡面有兩個非常嚴重的錯誤的這個類比南韓是在去年的七月份人家整個就已經談好了整個協議了我們到目前為止鄭麗菁說還要過幾個禮拜協議才會完成而且到底有沒有農業被衝擊"},{"start":3038.971,"end":3058.904,"text":"因為到底裡面有多少的項目到現在是不清不楚的這會是一樣嗎時間是不一樣的 第二更重要的到底有哪些項目是後來要增加的不清不楚所以今天我們明確的要求一個月內請行政院長率相關部委首長進行專案報告並備職選好 謝謝 請國民黨 請民進黨團 請表達意見來"},{"start":3064.898,"end":3092.718,"text":"我希望張旭凱不管你問起來多久講話還是要從你的良心來講話因為福報和這個關鍵談判混為一談你有沒有搞清楚福報當初的福報是馬英九搞的福報整個太陽花學院這兩個完全不一樣等級的東西滿混為一談而且常常一議失議旭凱你講個大聲就好了"},{"start":3094.332,"end":3112.151,"text":"你每個人都長得像黑的狗是要做什麼當然大家都在笑這樣講話要好好講嘛要有道理講 聲音沒有用聲音只是把自己的腦筋沖壞掉而已要講道理 像唯唯道來這樣才有"},{"start":3114.113,"end":3130.133,"text":"所以這個抽拔紅帽當作光線談判這個是何其嚴重的一個問題啊這個概念不可如此置喚所以本席在這裡 院長我在這裡集體回應這個事情好了行政院長當然要來報告啊"},{"start":3132.031,"end":3156.586,"text":"盡數嘛所以最快就是我這次議題我們2月20號一晚我們開議那天一併報告這是最快的方式柯文昭先人指路說2月24號開議日的時候昨天本來就要報告並案報告那陳培育署長請稍待一下因為國民黨團還沒講話國民黨團請表達意見之後請陳培育署長請"},{"start":3167.475,"end":3170.476,"text":"我想韓國啊發生了國會審查韓美關稅的問題現在川普總統說要把它提到25%說因為韓國國會還沒有通過當我們看到這則新聞的時候很心酸啊院長那個韓院長韓國國會"},{"start":3197.071,"end":3217.927,"text":"是還沒有審查完畢我們中華民國國會是從頭到尾就沒有這個案子要交給我們來審我們根本無從審起也無權自著也未曾參與也不能表達意見從頭到尾就是佛約不能說不能說意思告訴我們不能講"},{"start":3220.049,"end":3240.755,"text":"跟日本跟韓國都不一樣 日本韓國是政府帶著企業一起去跟美國談判各行各業會卡到哪裡 有哪些要命的問題他們是不能放的 國家不能放的 都要堅持到底的那我們今天談出這個東西來 除了5000億美金 是我們GDP的62%的"},{"start":3243.966,"end":3267.355,"text":"這種保護費日本12韓國18.9我們卻要付出62%多還更重要的因為現在國會都沒有看到內容到底蓋牌了多少東西多少東西被蓋牌我們都不知道那這樣的情況之下中華民國國會是不能審查到現在為止都看不到然後就要執行了真的中華民國國會比照韓國國會"},{"start":3273.228,"end":3291.673,"text":"我們真的到底這個政府中華民國政府有沒有尊重國會我們到現在內容都不曉得也只是聽到報宅媒體說怎麼樣一份專案報告給我們都沒有我們完全無從表達意見也完全不知道怎麼審查所以民眾黨要求"},{"start":3293.996,"end":3312.257,"text":"這個總統大院長要到立法院來報告這不是報告國會廳而已啊中國國人都需要都想要知道到底的細節內容是什麼還有農林榆木農林榆木是不是主要的內容是什麼我們都不曉得是不是對美國零關稅開放農林榆木我們也不知道"},{"start":3313.459,"end":3329.328,"text":"還有汽車到底以後未來進來汽車是不是零關稅我們國內的汽車產業是不是業績一定要全倒這是何其嚴重的問題但是我們現在完完全全無法製作因為沒有任何的資料"},{"start":3330.348,"end":3359.768,"text":"這個要請韓院長要到行政院盡快把相關談判的內容跟資料讓國會能夠了解謝謝好 謝謝國民黨團的發言陳培宇委員發言完畢之後我們就進行處理好嗎好 謝謝院長我保證這一次會降溫我們來看一下我們手上的關係文書是在114年的時候7月就有民眾黨團提出這個希望卓院長到立法院來報告的專案那我們來看一下7月之後去年的7月之後請張綺凱委員可以聽一下"},{"start":3360.468,"end":3381.036,"text":"去年的7月之后发生了什么事情呢到了去年的8月史无前例的我们立法院就在外交国防委员会由当时的外交部还有行政院经贸谈判办公室到外交国防委员会来专案报告当天是机密会议"},{"start":3381.776,"end":3396.316,"text":"相关的文件呢我不确定张旗凯委员麦玉珍委员今天出席的民众党提案的委员你们当时有没有出席这个机密会议我本人是有出席的相关的文件呢其实当天杨振宁政委也都有做很多的说明"},{"start":3397.338,"end":3417.451,"text":"我以上的說明是為了要回應張祺凱文說把這個事情拿來類比服貿是一個黑箱不透明我要說你就是在說謊你就是在造謠你就是在抹黑當天的機密會議你不來所以你說這是黑箱那我問你為什麼不來你為什麼不來聽聽看為什麼不來看一看當天行政院還有經貿辦"},{"start":3418.692,"end":3445.133,"text":"提供了什么文件当天有哪些在野党的委员有出席你要不要去查一下当天有哪一些在野党委员有出席我欢迎张其凯委员可以去查一下议事处的记录当天到底有哪一些在野党委员有出席然后看了机密文件然后也做了相关的问题跟报告所以请不要再说黑箱不透明"},{"start":3445.854,"end":3449.858,"text":"我再強調一次7月份你們有這個提案8月份史無前例的就召開了機密會議請問這麼關心這個事情的民眾黨委員你們當時有多少人出席如果張祺凱委員你當天沒有出席那你可以去請教一下你的同事們他們有誰出席最後我要說"},{"start":3469.298,"end":3494.486,"text":"立法院到目前為止我們當然希望在野黨委員要支持後續行政院還有經貿辦談出來的談判結果現在國人都在擔心產業界也在擔心就連許書博先生都在擔心而我們在想的是產業的困境我們在想的是行政院還可以做哪些事情但你們現在想的都是政治鬥爭"},{"start":3495.686,"end":3520.272,"text":"你不顧產業不顧人民也就算了還要做出這樣的鬥爭我覺得非常的遺憾非常的可恥非常的荒謬我要再一次強調我現在也要公開呼籲我們很希望後續行政院相關版本送進來的時候可以獲得在野黨委員的支持也請提醒在野黨委員不要再造謠抹黑這件事情類比於服貿真的是毫無歷史感的人才會說出來的話"},{"start":3521.957,"end":3533.183,"text":"好 謝謝陳培書記長那跟各位黨團幹部來報告照剛才幾位黨團幹部共同所表達的以及柯總召直接明確講出2月24號就是我們"},{"start":3537.825,"end":3563.769,"text":"第十一屆第五會期第一次的會議然後開議日請問各黨團幹部有沒有意見抱歉我們堅持是要分開的那2月24號是一個施政報告嘛這個專報另外的時間我們堅持是要分開的我們的提案不要跟施政報告混在一起好沒問題沒問題那2月24號這一天敲定各位下會期的開議日行政院長施政報告大家同意嗎"},{"start":3564.994,"end":3587.133,"text":"同意嗎?那個張旗改副總長這點您同意嗎?國民黨團隊2月24號開議我們同意好的 民進黨的國民黨團都同意2月24號開議請問台灣民眾黨團同意那天 可是專報是要分開的我知道你已經講過我聽到了 好好那如果建議的話是3月3號"},{"start":3589.766,"end":3615.835,"text":"這個我們請這個行政院長專案報告可以嗎好我們就把它訂在3月3號可以嗎好我們讓我們草泥給我們一點時間草泥好不好那從後面2月24號開議行政院長施政報告3月3號就是這個對美國這個關稅再請行政院長來專案報告一下可以嗎可以我們就根據這樣的一個精神我們開始寫一下好謝謝"},{"start":3620.822,"end":3638.168,"text":"跟院長報告一下因為我們現在正在作業需要一點時間因為待會大家要簽署"},{"start":3649.934,"end":3660.878,"text":"要簽署那個台美經貿的這個部分的簽字嘛那現在還有一點時間因為議事處正在作業嘛那我們是不是請那個謝一鋒委員有些意見表達好不好"},{"start":3665.159,"end":3675.985,"text":"我是要針對新興計畫這個部分因為我知道我想要請問一下我想要詢問一下我想要確認對於那個內容再確認一下就是說我們的新興計畫就是根據54條那我們現在是通過所有新興計畫還是只是說可以先行動之預算沒有通過預算沒有通過先行動之"},{"start":3693.493,"end":3720.08,"text":"那可以先行使用嘛 對不對我是說如果這一條通過以後對 如果通過啦現在問題是民進黨連這個都不放他們當家自己鬧事啊因為根據54條的話就是說只要經過立法院同意的話我們就可以讓行政機關先行動之嘛那現在是不是說我們現在是程序在哪裡冷凍期結束以後是可以先行動之對"},{"start":3722.321,"end":3751.499,"text":"現在民進黨在擋啦 民進黨連這個都不放我是說行政機關是不是可以先行控制沒有 我是說行政機關可不可以先行控制報告這一個黨的協商會議因為這一個案本身還冷凍期間所以還要再擇期去協商所以這一個不可能在院會處理當然大家大概 當時大概同意吧就擇期協商啦這案是第三案嘛 就擇期協商啦"},{"start":3755.017,"end":3784.8,"text":"依鳳 等那個冷凍期過了 表決就過了現在是民進黨在擋 所以沒辦法謝謝 我們進入學生通過了以後再直播不要再造謠謝謝依鳳委員我們尊重他對於相關議事規則來請教秘書長張綺凱不要造謠不是民進黨不出你們不給錢嗎就是你們擋的啊冷凍期還是不擋我點菜你才敢給啦 笑死那我剛剛韓國瑜院長說叫相關主席總處把所有的信息不要電出來那到時候你們是不是只過信息不要擋 這筆預算就可以給啦"},{"start":3785.36,"end":3793.328,"text":"你給錢啊總預算一起來審啊為什麼不審呢總預算一起來審啊總預算一起來審啊薪水小胖不上班啊總預算為什麼不審總預算我要審啊8月到現在150幾天啊為什麼不審啊總預算總預算我要審總預算啊"},{"start":3805.134,"end":3822.126,"text":"欸你一樣嘛你去年朝委協商沒去那你怎麼不審呢對啊你趕快把編除啊你現在是違法怎麼審我要審總預算你聽不懂喔總預算都想被你們卡在程序委員會你沒有聽懂總預算被卡在程序委員會總預算被卡在程序委員會你聽不懂啊"},{"start":3828.221,"end":3853.468,"text":"麥醫生委員我看你的眼睛好想發言你要不要發言你稍待一下我先唸一下宣告我一定要發言我沒辦法我要先唸宣告因為我感覺你的眼神炯炯發光一分鐘就好不行不行不行我要唸宣告我先宣告一下第四案我去年也在啊我就問你去年有沒有審找預算你今年為什麼不想審找預算你不敢審嗎"},{"start":3854.888,"end":3864.956,"text":"張啟凱為什麼要造謠張啟凱為什麼要造謠你為什麼不敢審找預算好我宣告好不好我做一個宣告張啟凱你要獅子吼一下沒關係我就感覺你要獅子吼一下好不好大家降溫降溫降溫啊謝謝"},{"start":3883.524,"end":3899.201,"text":"好 麻煩大家看一下我念一下我們就把這個處理掉我們現在做決定一 各黨團同意2月24號星期二舉行第11屆第5會期第一次會議並且與3月3號星期二合併為一次會"},{"start":3904.5,"end":3932.399,"text":"本會期至3月6日星期五起每週五及次週二視為一次會議院會國事論壇及臨時提案依往例處理週五上午9點至10點為國事論壇週二下午5點至6點處理臨時提案諮詢期間週二下午2點15分至2點30分處理臨時提案第一次會議一事成以草案禁送院會處理並不進行國事論壇及不處理臨時提案"},{"start":3933.854,"end":3933.955,"text":"我們聽到"},{"start":3936.055,"end":3957.459,"text":"要宣告的是2月24號星期二上午10點開會進行相關議程報告事項下午邀請行政院院長率同各部會首長列席進行施政方針及施政報告並備諮詢報告後隨即進行政黨諮詢當日諮詢人數由國民黨團推派一位民進黨團推派一位台灣民眾黨團推派一位進行諮詢順序一國民黨團台灣民眾黨團民進黨團之順序輪流交叉方式進行"},{"start":3965.14,"end":3974.473,"text":"有關質詢期間之順序及人數均依例授權議事處進行辦理施政方針報告委員個人質詢之登記3月10日星期二截止"},{"start":3977.11,"end":3989.897,"text":"3.3月3日星期二,邀請行政院長率同相關部會首長列席,提出台美關稅結果及其影響專案報告,並備諮詢。諮詢人數由國民黨團推派10位,民進黨團推派10位,台灣民眾黨團推派2位進行。每委員詢答時間15分鐘。"},{"start":3998.218,"end":4018.821,"text":"質詢順序依例授權議事處進行辦理名單請於3月2日星期一中午12點前送議事處會診,預時視同放棄4.本第五會期委員參加委員會及各委員會超級委員之選舉不受本院組織法及各委員會組織法及相關授權規定之限制"},{"start":4020.455,"end":4032.407,"text":"各委員會召集委員選舉定於3月11日星期三舉行其日程表如附件5.本第五會期程序委員會依政黨比例由國民黨團推派9位"},{"start":4034.212,"end":4048.326,"text":"民進黨團推派9位,台灣民眾黨團推派1位代表組成名單請於3月12日星期四中午12點前送至議事處會診上述名單送交議事處後即不予更換請問各黨團幹部針對這5項我們所獲得的黨團共識有無意見?沒有意見請簽字好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":4061.455,"end":4074.741,"text":"我們現在可以繼續進行下一個案,住宅法嗎?因為時間已經到了11點56分了好,我們繼續,不行,不可以休息住宅法討論完再說,部長都到了我們歡迎內政部劉部長我們進入第五項請大家簽字"},{"start":4081.24,"end":4103.611,"text":"我們現在協商第五個主題國民黨提的住宅法部分修正草案第四期案等四期案本次協商四期案於115年1月27號由內政委會召集委員黃建斌主持過一次黨團協商協商結論中第四條、第十八條、第四十七條、第五十二條均於保留因此於本日我們繼續進行黨團協商"},{"start":4105.792,"end":4125.639,"text":"現在我來介紹今天列席的我們各位首長,我們歡迎內政部劉部長,歡迎您。法務部的楊檢察官,歡迎您。衛福部的林視察,歡迎您。好,謝謝。我們請國民黨團,請表達意見好嗎?好,請劉許廷、張靜雯,請。"},{"start":4130.632,"end":4145.289,"text":"我跟大家報告一下住宅法經歷內政委員會的幾次審查然後包含昨天進行的這個黨團協商之後大概只剩四個條文還沒有辦法達成共識分別是第四條"},{"start":4148.492,"end":4175.482,"text":"18條第47條還有第52條那基本上在昨天的黨團協商的過程中大體上也跟行政機關交換意見但很遺憾朝野沒有辦法達成共識大體上是這個修法強度的問題像第4條這個本黨黨團堅持這個婚育宅的比例至少要保持20%這個立場到今天為止並沒有任何的改變針對第18條有關於社宅登記平台的設計我們認為應該要設計成全國其一而且是事前登記的平台"},{"start":4176.182,"end":4197.52,"text":"這樣才能為推動社宅輪候制做準備那麼這些資訊採納民眾黨的意見既然要為建設社宅做事前的安排相關的一些資料也應該要予以公開針對第47條的部分是有關於租屋市場透明化的部分我們當然希望以類別以及每坪的單價作為透明化的標準我們也是堅持"},{"start":4200.463,"end":4222.139,"text":"52條的部分是因為在這個當初委員會修正的時候這個語意上有一點點不通暢所以我們今天會提出修正動議依然是要讓這個包租的這個補貼的金額這個不得低於貸款的2.5倍以上這是我們針對這四個條文的意見好謝謝牛許廷的說明非常感謝那國民黨團也沒有黨團也沒有補充的意見沒有我們請民進黨團請表達意見好嗎"},{"start":4224.966,"end":4250.801,"text":"院長 各位理事代表有關於住宅法有四個條件是保留的我建議是一個條件一個條件來到時候有共識我們明明共識明明共識的話就不必花很多時間在那邊攻防所以一條一條來至於哪一條民進黨會表示黨團意見部長也在這裡可以說明很清楚"},{"start":4252.323,"end":4254.615,"text":"好 謝謝柯總召非常清楚的建議 一條一條來 台灣民眾黨團有意見嗎"},{"start":4260.856,"end":4284.728,"text":"好 謝謝院長 我們就是針對第一條一條來就是第四條 第四條我們的核心就是說在於就是行政機關就是任意操作就是出租的比例所以明顯就是寫回法例 所以我們這邊的希望就是說百分之十二不是彈性 是最低的"},{"start":4286.638,"end":4290.161,"text":"20%不是彈性是最低的保障如果明確下線說實務上就是被壓縮為象徵性的配置所以家庭型的社宅需要長期這樣子的邊緣化所以我們覺得違反社會住宅的原本穩定居住所以支持家庭的政策目的所以彈性"},{"start":4310.757,"end":4315.521,"text":"也不能吃掉我們的弱勢的名額所以我們本條就是最低的比例所以我們堅持第四條就是剛才說一條一條來我們就以第四條的目的謝謝麻煩請內政部劉副長表達意見好嗎謝謝"},{"start":4328.353,"end":4332.435,"text":"是謝謝院長謝謝黨團上面的建議我們昨天在討論有關於這一條條文的時候是有提到說現行我們希望能夠用滾動式的調整那最主要就是說婚育宅有10%到20%當然是相當的不錯的一個比例可是目前為止我們會認為說把20%加到裡面去的話仍然會排擠一般戶跟弱勢戶那在我們住宅法的這一條裡面的弱勢戶就有14種13種以上對不起"},{"start":4358.15,"end":4376.429,"text":"所以會造成說未來在社宅的分配比例上面有不公平的狀況但是各位都有提到說婚育宅如果是要確認未來可以跟其他的社會福利相當的話在一定的房型裡面我們希望可以給我們一個滾動調整的空間以上"},{"start":4380.177,"end":4396.761,"text":"嗯 劉部長講得很清楚啊 它需要一個滾動調整的空間那國民黨團有沒有意見要表達這個話我就必須要講得比較不客氣啦當初建設社會住宅的時候 我們也給予政府很大的滾動調整空間啦那結論就是從13萬戶滾動調整成4萬戶啦"},{"start":4399.102,"end":4425.815,"text":"所以我真的覺得如果說政府整個在執行居住正義的政策充滿著善業的非常積極的話那今天在條文的部分我們當然可以接受比較溫和的版本但如果政府機關沒有辦法這個你開實際上執行政策的時候往往是開倒車的時候那我們在法條上就要予以堅持不過要補充說明是行政院自己在宣傳婚育宅這樣一個政策的時候自己就宣傳百分之二十你沒有道理自己宣傳百分之二十然後法條上直接百分之十我覺得蠻奇怪的所以我們會堅持 以上"},{"start":4427.618,"end":4454.408,"text":"謝謝劉啓廷委員的補充說明陳昭志委員要說明是嗎 請第四條我們是不是已經表達過我只是想再強調一點目前這個婚姻的家庭大概已經佔了十幾個百分比那你當然要往前走啊你要往前走啊因為這個是嫂子會中其中之一嘛而且是很重要的一個因素我們沒有理由不往前走所以我們堅持要百分之二十 好 謝謝柯總召請"},{"start":4456.414,"end":4472.624,"text":"有關於第四條我們民進黨黨團按照行政院版本至少提供百分之二十我們是予以支持的照行政院版本至少提供百分之二十那是不是毫無意義至少二十"},{"start":4481.058,"end":4488.501,"text":"等一下我跟證一下還是提供至少20%我們支持柯總召支持20%那我們現在三個黨團已經達成共識了就提供20%已經達成共識了20%以上至少20%以上我們第四條就修正通過我們進入第"},{"start":4512.386,"end":4524.205,"text":"第18條來院長不好意思我們回到一點點邀請內政部這邊文字是不是跟我們再次確認好 劉部長請第4條的部分是嗎對"},{"start":4525.236,"end":4531.881,"text":"我們原來就是說以至少10%為原則已經20%的話我們沒有意見但是我還跟大家再表達一下第一個因為這裡面有都會區跟非都會區對婚育宅的比例調整的問題尤其是說如果比較偏鄉地區的話它的婚育比例比較低那我所謂的滾動性的調整的話就是說是不是容許我們在行政空間上面可以跟縣市政府一起來做統一的調配"},{"start":4553.559,"end":4575.494,"text":"我們當然20%沒有 也就是北北桃北北桃的婚育宅的比例會比較高但是如果是一些比較離島的部分婚育宅的比例會比較低這個大概我們也在內政委員會跟很多內政委員表達過我們的立場所以我們在調配上面希望可以有給我們這樣空間文字的修正的話我們就尊重黨團三黨的決議通過 謝謝那個部長內政部也同意20%各位黨團還有什麼其他意見嗎沒有意見"},{"start":4581.923,"end":4609.413,"text":"沒有意見啦好那我們就修正我建議文字的修正就以我們當初在這個黨團協商提出的修正動議的版本因為第一個我們寫百分之二十第二個我們有講萬一這百分之二十沒有用完他可以留回本來的那個然後再重新分配這樣就不會有空污的問題好 當初有一個修正動議的版本請這邊做參佐 以上好的 這個黃建豪委員等十六位住宅法第十條條例修正案這個版本嘛那個路程看一下"},{"start":4617.018,"end":4639.207,"text":"我們再看一下在第一段的後面第一段的後面我們再看一下報告院長那個文字上既然大家有達到共識文字上面是不是授權我們跟那個牛許廷委員再講一下因為有些要符合我們法律條文上面的規定我們很快就會給答案好嗎"},{"start":4640.185,"end":4647.33,"text":"我們讓內政部劉部長跟劉雪婷委員之間,他們協調一下文字,我們進入下一條OK,休息五分鐘"},{"start":4668.763,"end":4669.863,"text":"我們這個案子卡了以後 這個會不會結束之後"},{"start":4687.062,"end":4688.343,"text":"下午好不好下午下午"},{"start":4717.042,"end":4727.714,"text":"我沒有發功了 我就沒氣勢了我一定要更是把我最多到處來打結束給後面我們休息一會兒最後一段我會再談一段打兩條一路進來就不行了"},{"start":4732.179,"end":4744.548,"text":"不討論 明天 朝一星期我的意思是這樣子所以明天就黨產跟社群媒體?不曉得啊 因為會被我們抓公文好 沒問題畢竟禮拜五最後選舉 那個黨產啊那個黨產 牙籌 好不好好 黨產大家坐好 洗衣水"},{"start":4764.764,"end":4765.669,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見"},{"start":4781.719,"end":4785.099,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":4816.138,"end":4817.96,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":4831.002,"end":4835.844,"text":"因為其他就跟我們的規矩有什麼關係所以就是 包出來的這個我都給你來寫上來倒在上面"},{"start":4851.397,"end":4851.897,"text":"台子禮物"},{"start":4879.301,"end":4879.321,"text":"鞏固"},{"start":4915.917,"end":4916.497,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":4922.247,"end":4922.687,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見!"},{"start":4947.956,"end":4964.727,"text":"河沙沙沙沙沙"},{"start":4972.91,"end":4974.656,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見"},{"start":5013.864,"end":5014.285,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5047.261,"end":5071.067,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":5086.927,"end":5102.699,"text":"可以拿了"},{"start":5128.798,"end":5129.699,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5151.044,"end":5151.704,"text":"好了嗎 預表說明"},{"start":5167.457,"end":5168.878,"text":"好,各位黨團幹部請坐,我們會議開始"},{"start":5195.319,"end":5221.497,"text":"好 我們宣讀一下內政部以及我們本院黨團幹部跟劉許廷委員共同所達成的共識條文件第一項修正為主管機關及民間新辦之社會住宅應以直轄市縣市轄區為計算範圍提供至少百分之二十以上比率出租與經濟或社會弱勢出租"},{"start":5222.478,"end":5245.61,"text":"提供至少百分之二十比率出租与新婚两年内或育有未成年子女之婚育家庭并提供一定比率与未涉及于当地且在该地区就学就业有居住需求者但申请时婚育家庭数量未达保留比率者剩余部分不在此限其余同现行条文"},{"start":5254.062,"end":5264.318,"text":"黃建豪委員的再修正動立法說明立法說明第一點"},{"start":5265.851,"end":5284.665,"text":"婚育家庭之定義為新婚二年內或育有未成年子女之婚育家庭後續將於本法施行細則中予以說明第二點基於城鄉發展之不同百分之二十是以全國社會住宅總量計算以利滾動調整宣讀完畢"},{"start":5292.193,"end":5313.427,"text":"好 各位黨團幹部沒有意見嘛我們已經都達成共識了好 謝謝我們進入第18條尤其廷委提出的修正動議建請中央主管機關建置全國統一之申請登記平台內政部建議主管機關應建置社會住宅的登記平台尤其廷委你提的修正動議請表達意見好嗎"},{"start":5318.05,"end":5334.194,"text":"謝謝主席這個一樣是在登記平台的部分那我們都希望社會住宅現在是用抽籤的方式處理但這終究不是長治久安之道我們希望可以逐步讓政策往社宅輪候制的方向來做推進因此有一個統一全國的事前登記的登記平台很重要"},{"start":5334.674,"end":5363.598,"text":"他不只可以為輪候做準備相關收集的一些資訊也可以給政府很好的參考在哪些地方要優先的來建設社宅那麼這些資料應該要進行合理的公開所以這個在我們昨天的黨團協商的時候有提一個比較完整的版本除了全國統一的平台之外最後這個區位新辦戶數房型配比等等資料要一併來做公開以上跟大家報告 謝謝那個牛許廷委員所提出來的修正動議現在各位黨團幹部手上都有嗎"},{"start":5365.031,"end":5370.577,"text":"有沒有看到就在各位手上好我們請民進黨團表達意見好嗎謝謝沒有意見民進黨團同意國民黨團那個台灣民眾黨團請表達意見好嗎"},{"start":5378.072,"end":5383.753,"text":"基黨沒有意見因為我們非常注重這一條過去用運券回收率來處理我們請內政部劉部長表達意見謝謝院長剛剛劉委員所提的修正動議的修正條文的部分當然全國要成立登記的平台我們在內政委員會討論的時候已經沒有太大意見但是我們有考慮到說現行在登記制度上面是不是可以讓我們在第三段的部分"},{"start":5406.459,"end":5426.427,"text":"修正成第一項由中央主管機關建置之申請登記平台可以借接直轄市縣市主管機關的社會住宅登記平台那為什麼要這樣做第一個這本來就是中央政府跟地方政府一起做那第二個呢我們就預防啊有人呢在多縣市在做登記的話呢會造成那個數據數據或者統計上面的膨脹的問題啊未來在申請上面會造成比較不公平的現象那這個部分呢那地方政府大概沒有太多反對的意見以上這是執行面的問題"},{"start":5436.715,"end":5463.07,"text":"那個 劉部長表達就是一個執行技術層面直轄市政府應該也都是配合的那各黨團幹部針對劉部長補充說明大家有沒有請陳佩瑜署長請對我就是剛剛想要問這個問題因為如果沒有把地方政府的角色放進來其實就中央的執行向會有非常大的困難所以如果部長剛剛也已經說明也要拜託在野黨的委員支持 謝謝那條文那個部長對條文通過您"},{"start":5466.604,"end":5480.016,"text":"我剛有提到說要增加第三項的這個部分就是我剛有念我們現在手上拿的是 對不起部長打岔那個現在是內政部所提的修正建議條文請大家稍微看一下 請劉部長再請說明一下"},{"start":5481.5,"end":5504.372,"text":"謝謝 在第18條裡面 就是中央主管機關那個第一段跟第二段的部分大概就是跟原來那個牛許廷委員在1月27裡面提修正動議是一樣的第一段跟第二段是一樣的那第三段的部分就是把第一項由中央主管機關建置之申請登記平台得借接直轄市縣市主管機關之社會住宅登記平台"},{"start":5504.972,"end":5520.436,"text":"因為跟各位報告我們可能要借借的部分包括他的財稅或是戶籍資料那這個呢一定要地方政府一起協助才有可能完成 以上好 內政部所提的這個增加了一個第三項如果沒有意見我們就照內政部去修正主席不好意思 我記得昨天我也有在也做了一些說明齁因為就是讓大家去登記第一個你再參考其他國家做法你可以有個統一編號啊"},{"start":5528.018,"end":5532.32,"text":"就是他重複登記但是你會知道第二個本來需求就是一個不斷的變動有時候他們就這個首選沒有我次選我有因為他就是有需求這個處處他們也可以看得到提供者也可以看得到是哪些需要他也可以主動的來提供給他為什麼你們會擔心這是技術面問題為什麼會擔心重複登記呢報告委員有一些地方上的稅收不是國稅局這邊可以找得到的"},{"start":5556.374,"end":5582.634,"text":"有些是地方稅我剛有提到第一個我們在做住宅登記設宅登記的時候通常會有排付條款那有些部分的資料的話我們還是要地方政府我是寫德界階那這個部分我們會跟地方政府一起來溝通目前我所知道應該在執行面上沒有太大問題 以上陳老師我想內政部講的這個非常清楚了好不好 它是德界階嘛應該不會有什麼 劉喜廷委員有意見嗎"},{"start":5583.66,"end":5587.987,"text":"好的那我們就照內政部建議條文修正通過好嗎好謝謝我們請宣讀"},{"start":5592.782,"end":5619.76,"text":"第18條中央主管機關應建置全國統一之申請登記平台供符合第25條第一項資格之人登記經申請人同意者並得自相關目的事業主管機關借接其家庭成員之護證財稅及社會福利個人資料主管機關依舊前項資料定期統計分析將其供給區域護書需求房型配比及所需公共設施作為將來擬定社會住宅新辦計劃之依據並於主管機關之網站公開之"},{"start":5622.506,"end":5638.364,"text":"第一項由中央主管機關建置之申請登記平台得借接直轄市縣市主管機關之社會住宅登記平台宣讀完畢好 謝謝啊 各位沒有意見我們就照內政部修正第18條通過我們現在進入第47條"},{"start":5641.656,"end":5652.406,"text":"也是牛許庭委員提出的修正動議建請主管機關定期收集分析公佈市場的形態及物理區分等等牛許庭委員請表達意見"},{"start":5655.496,"end":5673.93,"text":"這個一樣是這個是有關於這個租屋市場透明啦因為我們滿肯定內政部願意逐步的往前走啦但我是覺得這個速度要加快一點現在內政部提供的這個租屋市場相關的是以這個行政區的行情的分位數的方式來做呈現但是以人民直接期待的租屋市場透明應該是有點接近這個"},{"start":5675.051,"end":5699.803,"text":"一般買賣房屋的實價登錄的方式以逐個形態的方式來做處理所以我們要求在裡面再做細分按照不同的形態可能是這個雅房一類套房一類整層的一類大樓的一類公寓類等等要讓它有這個單憑租金的這樣子的一個數字來做分配這樣子我想在於租賃市場的透明上面會是比較完整的所以我們在47條的方面這個條文部分我予以堅持以上"},{"start":5701.143,"end":5723.072,"text":"對不起最後一句話我沒有聽清楚第47條部分你怎麼樣在我們的條文上我們是予以堅持的以上好的好的柯總召請剛才劉偉偉所談的單坪租金的問題這是做不到的這一點我們數沒有辦法同意每坪價格平均數"},{"start":5725.202,"end":5739.892,"text":"那是重大的可以請內政部說明一下好不好好請內政部劉部長請說明好謝謝院長有關於租屋市場的部分現在在市場上都是以租金的總價來判斷那很少以租金的單價也就是每坪多少錢"},{"start":5740.632,"end":5747.099,"text":"尤其現在有些租屋的型態在都會地區都是分租套雅房如果你現在去問房東跟房客說每一坪單價是多少第一個他們根本不曉得他們所租的房子的面積到底是幾坪"},{"start":5755.729,"end":5759.23,"text":"然後再來就是說到底單價是多少那如果我們硬性要求在每坪價格的數目只把它公布出來的時候第一個因為房東跟房客他們兩個都是民間人士他不是公務部門我們沒有強制他提供正確的資訊而且會有時間差譬如說他可能只租三個月不一定是租三年等等這些"},{"start":5776.135,"end":5779.179,"text":"如果硬性這樣規定的話會造成資訊上面的一個錯誤的統計而且不具參考性跟客觀性而且租屋市場恐怕會追漲所以我們會認為說那個劉委員他所提的修正案當然我們是"},{"start":5793.655,"end":5809.338,"text":"朝著越來越透明化比較好但是每坪的這個部分呢我覺得都不是很好的現象因為如果硬性這樣規定下去的話真的會造成天下大亂所有的人都不曉得他的租的這個市場到底坪數是多少坪這個會比較麻煩一點 以上好 張宏陸委員請發言 陳昭陸委員請準備好 謝謝院長其實啦 租市場透明大家都要追求啦可是啦齁"},{"start":5821.027,"end":5840.861,"text":"如果說用這個修法在商辦來講商辦來講我百分之百支持商辦應該可以這樣做得到可是如果以租屋因為他形態太多了有雅房有套房有什麼而且每一個大樓的公設比不一樣他簽約是用實際坪數還是包含公設"},{"start":5842.794,"end":5864.232,"text":"這個是沒有辦法做到美萍啦所以我是覺得我們可以去修但是不要到美萍啦因為確實實際上租屋的簽訂你有沒有包含公設有沒有什麼這個每個都不一樣所以這個實際上這個大家可能要考量一下好謝謝張宏錄委員陳昭志委員請發言柯總統請準備"},{"start":5867.364,"end":5885.268,"text":"好 謝謝主席這一條的精神主要就是說要讓租屋市場還有可以比較的價格基準現在只公布總價的分位數等於刻意拿掉面積的尺度當然政府跟民眾都沒有辦法判斷租金是否反映合理的居住品質跟政策分析也會失準那當然總價不等於價格單憑才是"},{"start":5889.509,"end":5895.454,"text":"市場的語言阿爾斯講得非常清楚你如果失去了面積的這個維度對面有沒有看出平數縮水品質下降的這個隱形租金的通膨如果政府也只看總價就是默許用更差的這個居住條件去掩蓋漲租的事實請記住中位數是個範圍中位數的意思就是說它是個中間那個數字中位數就是說有一半以上會比這個高一半以上可能會比這個低"},{"start":5915.749,"end":5918.011,"text":"大家都提到什麼設備條件不一樣有困難那設備差異不是理由分類統計本來就能處理你看國際租賃市場英國、美國、德國、法國他們都是用單位面積的租金搭配"},{"start":5930.879,"end":5936.221,"text":"分類分析要求這個來表達如果你說什麼事都完美這個做不出來那永遠就不能做了所以如果政府補貼的參考補貼的標準不參考每坪的價格的話你根本無法判斷你的補貼是否會被這個像譬如說高單價小坪數的這個吸收掉了那補貼效果就自然的就是外溢失控了所以簡單的說你不公佈單坪價政府永遠看不到"},{"start":5957.49,"end":5982.201,"text":"市場結構這件事情我們民眾黨是堅持的好謝謝好謝謝陳昭州委員我們接著請柯總召請院長剛才我民進黨黨團的意見以及民進黨的意見是站在一起的然後我們兩個民進黨的意見他們不一致我覺得這個只有留待表決就不必再論下去了"},{"start":5984.64,"end":6012.56,"text":"劉部長您要再補充因為我們如果就院會處理的話您還要補充什麼意見嗎沒有 我們就保留送院會好不好劉部長你有沒有補充要不要補充是 我想我們還是一樣就是因為美萍的部分我們是要求誰提供這個數據就是我剛所說的房東跟房客那他提供出來以後我們站在公部門的立場無法去確認他提供的數據是真的還是假的"},{"start":6013.635,"end":6017.787,"text":"或者他會變動那所以我剛有提到說這樣子會造成這個資訊的不具參考"},{"start":6020.134,"end":6049.194,"text":"跟不具客觀性因為真的同樣一棟大樓裡面房子裡面有沒有加沙發有沒有加冷氣那個價錢都是完全不一樣的那現在要求我們提供美評只有一個單純的美評的部分的話那它的附設家具也好或是它其他的是中古屋等等這些就是它的參考價值真的相當低的狀況之下要求房客跟房東這樣做只是會擾亂現在的房屋房控的房客的租屋市場上面的一個價格以上"},{"start":6050.997,"end":6063.028,"text":"張國柱委員你要補充一句話我只補充一句話剛剛陳高州委員他講的也沒有錯但不要忘了他剛舉的地方都是時評制的國家跟我們有公設比的是完全不一樣的沒有公設"},{"start":6071.175,"end":6099.013,"text":"部長您擔心這個申報不實或不符合的話這件事本身是治理的原則 治理能力的問題啊就是說如果說資料不實或是不符這不應該是說不做這件事的一個不是 剛剛那個我們有跟委員報告過我們現在是朝著總價 租金總價然後開始慢慢推進因為房型不一樣然後剛剛有提到其他國家裡面並沒有把公社放到裡面去"},{"start":6099.753,"end":6117.616,"text":"跟我們台灣的不一樣我們其他的國家都會拿來參考的不是我們不願意做以上陳培委員妳要補充一句氣氛我知道陳昭子委員用心良苦但是我覺得剛剛部長已經反映了很多的現況包含如果我們大學生在租屋的時候有沒有含家具有沒有含床啊書桌這些都會影響到這個價格"},{"start":6118.837,"end":6142.252,"text":"那一旦我們把這些現實的狀況考慮進去等於我們今天最後如果最後還是要送表決我們是在逼內政部去做出一個不實的數字然後讓人民去參考這個不實的數字去租房子或相關的房東去把房子放到市場上租所以我認為他們就被迫公佈一個不真實的假的而且完全沒有意義的數字但是我要說"},{"start":6143.192,"end":6154.019,"text":"如果我們真的認為這件事情是重要的,還有沒有別的做法?是不是可以讓內政部再想一想,再跟在野黨的委員們討論我再說一次,是有意義,但是絕對不是用這個粗暴的方法,以上劉許廷委員,您要不要補充一點,聽了這麼多的意見,沒關係"},{"start":6166.072,"end":6181.594,"text":"報告主席 這個事情各有各的道理因為我認為任何一個立法的變革它都會經歷一定的陣痛期在執行上面當然會增加一定的負擔 這我們都了解的但是如果說每次都因為考量這些東西大家就裹足不前的話 那個前進的速度其實是很慢的"},{"start":6181.994,"end":6196.825,"text":"其實正常大家期待的租屋市場透明化是完全的實價登錄完全的透明但現在之所以有就講說我們先用中位數分位數的方式來做模糊化的處理其實也就是考慮到你要一步到位它其實是有困難的但我們希望把這個參照的標準弄得更清楚一點"},{"start":6197.265,"end":6220.422,"text":"當然剛剛有講有些是有虛憑的問題有一些有新舊的問題就是因為這樣所以才用分位數的方式來呈現嘛你這個條件比較好了它分位數為什麼那麼高你還是可以進到物件的內容裡面去做參酌那麼在這樣的參酌的過程中自己做這個租賃雙方做合理的判斷回歸市場的機制我想這個應該算是OK啦那難免會有一點震動但我覺得這個是值得努力的方向 以上好 劉部長請"},{"start":6225.044,"end":6251.525,"text":"報告院長跟各位委員我想有關於住宅的部分我們都是想要與時近近但是要審慎會比較好因為這裡面的租屋市場的人數真的非常的多所以我們剛剛有特別提到就劉委員希望說有每坪的價格平均數不是目前做不到而是做下去的時候反而造成市場上面的騷動所以我們很希望說把每坪單價的部分取消掉的話其他以租金的總價來判斷是目前市場上可以接受的"},{"start":6252.225,"end":6268.754,"text":"而且我們這個部分也是要跟各個地方政府來做商量否則我們這個很倉促的推出的話縣市地方政府在配合處理上面也會出現一些亂象那短期的亂象如果可以解決的話我們覺得沒有問題但這個短期目前看起來不是只有三個月六個月"},{"start":6269.794,"end":6275.037,"text":"再加上說目前這個寒假了可能很多大學生的租屋市場要求他們提供每坪單價是多少的話很多大學生或者是大學生的這個房東會出現比較多的困擾所以我們才會提到說是不是不要以每坪為主那其他這方面的整個租屋市場要透明讓資訊可以揭露更透明的狀況之下"},{"start":6291.187,"end":6301.596,"text":"我們要考量這些數據是具有參考性質有意義的那如果是沒有意義的話每一天都要做變動那其實跟我們的租屋市場大概是背道而馳以上我想今天聽了這麼多寶貴的發言大家都思想上可以再激盪一下那我覺得"},{"start":6314.455,"end":6332.421,"text":"包括我本人都很難剎那之間做出一個宣告那我建議我們還有寶貴的時間請內政部我跟各委員再協商一下我們今天開會就到此為止然後我們明天要繼續協商好不好那明天下午三點半我們繼續協商未完成的部分"},{"start":6337.902,"end":6362.263,"text":"我們明天下午三點半一起我們這個時間就空在這個地方那謝謝各黨團幹部的力挺也謝謝內政部跟相關部會上連我們下午三點半我們繼續來進行討論這個寶貴的時間也請內政部跟各黨團來溝通一下我覺得這個影響太大租屋租戶太多數字太龐大好不好謝謝我們明天繼續協商現在散會"},{"start":6385.761,"end":6397.329,"text":"如果你要換一個模式的話,我也會去跟你們講我們去研究一下好,我們去研究一下好,我們去研究一下"}]}},{"id":"167282","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167282","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67de321910adb4eeadbf4fe19c94b211847e2c12228464ea44cc2cb998dec49867b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:31:07 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夏燕"},{"start":68.342,"end":85.796,"text":"我這邊列出來私藥自己認為的成功的選務的三要素他當然要是公正的他也是要效率的他更要能夠辨明這是選務成功的三要素我也認為中選會的委員的四個要件獨立行使職權"},{"start":87.137,"end":116.123,"text":"基於專業而且要能夠公正更要首先合法我的選務三要素跟中選會委員的四要件我們未來的這個主委提名人游老師應當都認可吧有沒有補充的完全認可好謝謝我要跟您報告思堯在努力的面向不談政治中選會有很多可以做得更好導入design thinking不曉得老師您對於design thinking有什麼樣的理解"},{"start":118.721,"end":145.136,"text":"Design Thinking沒關係,我來替您說明好了賈伯斯曾經說Design is not how it looksDesign is about how it works也就是Design Thinking不只是大家說設計美學事實上它是以使用者為切入點讓整個事情更有效率而且可以解決問題"},{"start":146.67,"end":163.859,"text":"所以我曾經呢因為台灣設計研究院是思堯在任內催生的一個新設的國家的組織透過設計的導入來攪動我們的公共政策也提升公共服務的效能跟品質所以設計院成立之後我們去跟很多部會敲敲門"},{"start":165.06,"end":179.609,"text":"我也帶著設計院去向前主委李靖勇先生敲敲門希望能夠導入design thinking讓我們的選務更進步更親民更有效率所以這是我當時2021年拜訪李前主委的時候來下一頁"},{"start":181.127,"end":210.006,"text":"而我們改變了什麼我希望未來的中選會的委員們都能夠持續來推動吳思瑤催生中選會CES設計院投入我們改革了選舉的很多的更進步更變明也更美學的這些做法第一個在投票動線的優化左邊是before右邊是after他更讓大家在有限的空間的移動更有效率就是design的導入"},{"start":211.807,"end":235.997,"text":"他在選舉公報的優化上 過去我們很多人說選舉公報要在這裡寫字 排版就是非常的unfriendly所以我們找了設計師design thinking以後after是在後面非常清楚讓大家可以一覽所有候選人他的政見相關的學經歷這是設計導入的正向成果 下一頁"},{"start":237.659,"end":254.146,"text":"設計導入呢還包括這些標識系統的革新越美越清晰不會永遠都是標開啟好不要永遠是中華民國美學而這樣的選舉美學我們獲得世界級的各自設計獎喔獲得亞洲最具影響力的設計獎喔"},{"start":257.467,"end":262.129,"text":"也獲得台灣的經典設計獎喔所以我希望未來的委員們都能夠持續的來優化這些design thinking導入我們的選務下一頁當然還包括 圈選票處我們真的也讓它更簡潔 更俐落 更好看而不是數十年如一日我們小時候真的投票就是這樣到現在立法院自己的圈選票處還是長一樣"},{"start":282.637,"end":282.957,"text":"我非常的"},{"start":302.141,"end":327.307,"text":"因為司法委員剛剛有繞英文我覺得這個就是中選會未來需要的中選會未來需要我是一個進步改革主義者所以任何能夠進步能夠改革的都是好的事情選舉更有效率選舉更美學選舉更變明然後大家對於選舉去投開票所的心情可能也好起來很好"},{"start":329.307,"end":353.796,"text":"讓我再講一句我沒有想到我在今天來立法院可以看到這些新的觀念我簡直是unbelievable所以立法院是有認真問政優質進步的立委而不是只有毀憲亂政的黨團很好下一頁當然不在即投票是今天的重點我剛剛講的選舉的三要素"},{"start":354.196,"end":368.57,"text":"公正效率跟便民提案的民眾黨團顯然只著重在降低選民投票成成本的那個便民的思考但是對於公正性跟選舉的效率他會造成選務的混亂甚至影響秘密投票甚至"},{"start":369.25,"end":392.103,"text":"也或多或少有境外借選風險增高的疑慮產生對於整個投票民主制度的信任危機所以呢絕對不能先求有再求好我們都支持行政院的版本您剛剛也說公投先行好這是我們共同立場我們希望未來大家一起來捍衛這樣子的做法下一頁而以"},{"start":392.918,"end":413.507,"text":"我們行政院去徵詢了這些執行者選務機關的代表對於不在籍投票欠缺配套的狀況之下是all say no21縣市認為現在可以上路的是0個縣市甚至連民眾黨提案黨團他們自己執政的新竹市也認為不可能"},{"start":415.908,"end":423.815,"text":"所以呢過半的縣市也都支持行政院的版本公投先行我希望我今天要多花一點時間為什麼要跟主席多爭取一點時間因為民眾黨團的不在即投票他們就是這一屆立法院的壞習慣近乎二讀啊"},{"start":432.862,"end":451.449,"text":"委員會沒有討論啊直接不翼而覺啊很有可能這週搞不好禮拜五又拿出來表決了所以今天有這個機會跟大家討論我就是希望能夠把這些數據告訴國人告訴社會台灣沒有一個縣市的選務機關認為不在即投票現在可以上路"},{"start":451.989,"end":465.685,"text":"NO所以我們就要審慎公投先行是多數的共識下頁而我們以投票意願這是我做的其實台灣的選舉投票率都是七成以上"},{"start":467.046,"end":482.053,"text":"對於這些已經有不在籍投票有不同的可能是電子郵票啊可能是境外投票不同的行使的這些不在籍投票的國家台灣的投票率都是高的除了南韓南韓有他這一次總統大選不同的"},{"start":482.413,"end":496.268,"text":"政治社會經濟的背景所以說不在於投票並不是等同於高投票意願的這個思維我要在這裡論述在下一頁更重要的是未來這是大家的事情我們要辦一個讓人民滿意的選舉"},{"start":499.176,"end":513.305,"text":"而你看看台灣目前選務的滿意度2024年總統立委選舉84%的人民滿意給各縣市的選委會跟中選會拍拍手2022地方選舉滿意度83.2%2020總統立委選舉滿意度86.9%"},{"start":519.289,"end":545.095,"text":"唯一一次就是剛剛未來的這個主委候選人話說的災難的2018的那一次公投房大學滿意度是28不滿意度高達68.6%這更要讓我們看到人民的聲音好我跳到我最後一個主題好嗎對不起因為有民調專家我還是想問一下這一題主委"},{"start":546.813,"end":554.776,"text":"我一直叫您主委 未來的主委您認為在台灣中共競選 境外勢力競選的嚴重嗎有這麼難回答嗎我坦白講作為一個嚴謹的政治學者來講我要回答的是說感覺上很嚴重"},{"start":574.202,"end":582.674,"text":"事實上政府沒有找到非常多的證據來證明他很嚴重所以我覺得我們應該審慎評估這件事情證據在這裡"},{"start":588.945,"end":606.929,"text":"看清楚法務部公布中國借選的手段境外資金的借選網路選舉的賭盤跟認知作戰假訊息的操作2024年被偵辦的依反滲透法的案件境外勢力借選117件287人這個不是證據嗎 主委 下一頁"},{"start":614.318,"end":627.471,"text":"而國民黨黨主席的選舉是自己自家的人跳出來批評的我就不再贅述了中國的借選變本加厲我們就是要欲提從寬料敵從嚴下一頁"},{"start":631.735,"end":647.118,"text":"各國都有韓國加拿大澳洲美國印度甚至在美國這種民主的國家中國可以利用製造假駕照的方式大量的協助中國的僑民去投票假駕照的方式"},{"start":647.759,"end":675.052,"text":"所以世界各國面對中國的借選都在進行ING的防範主委我們不要掩耳盜鈴您是民調專家我問您一個專業的問題現在都有民調禁制期在選舉前公布的日期您覺得現在是幾天 您知道嗎10天您認為如果要調整同意嗎未嘗不可"},{"start":675.68,"end":692.174,"text":"未嘗不可 那調整到幾天是可以接受的幾天好您的我尊重 台灣是民主社會現在國民黨立委要調變三天太危險啦 太危險啦我們回到前一頁"},{"start":693.888,"end":707.143,"text":"我們看看喔中國受益記者與退休教授捏造9次不實民調遭判刑司法判刑張顯耀先生涉嫌受中國指示發布講民調介入選舉遭起訴這都是司法偵辦換言之為什麼66%民主國家有選舉的民"},{"start":711.127,"end":711.367,"text":"太短"},{"start":735.525,"end":758.276,"text":"太短嗎所以就專業論專業我覺得我們今天做一個非常好的示範沒有政黨立場我們超越黨派就專業論專業我們期待每一個委員都是獨立的專業的首先合法的以及能夠公正行使職權的最後一個提醒您提醒主席拍謝下一頁公投的那個這一個"},{"start":761.517,"end":767.795,"text":"國民黨提出修公統法要用公民覆決來推翻憲判主委你認為呢"},{"start":769.415,"end":797.223,"text":"這會是一個高度爭議性的問題所以我剛剛說中學會委員要守憲合法不問黨派守憲合法是基本的底線憲法78條司法院統一解釋憲法之權憲法訴訟法38條所有的憲法判決人民各機關都要服從而人民就包括公投行使的這些主體人民釋字185號也說明了不容挑戰用任何方式來推翻憲判"},{"start":798.263,"end":825.908,"text":"公投法第2條也規定公投的實施要遵循憲法的規定我要提醒大家未來的立法院一再的毀憲亂政要用公投法的修正來凌駕憲法未來這個難題可能會落在各位委員你們在審查公投案的當下我要提醒不看黨派不看顏色守憲合法是我們每一個人宣誓就職"},{"start":826.721,"end":835.354,"text":"的誓詞請大家謹記在心好謝謝游老師我今天多次稱呼您主委不好意思僭越了背題名人游盈隆先生我們一起加油謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167280","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167280","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67dcc0b167b26e8ea1ff4fe19c94b211847e2c12228464ea44c1b9d0562b452a15f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:08:41 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謝謝王委員好你好在這幾天的過程當中我們有看到你的履歷剛才你說到你人家告訴你要做檔門這個節目的時候也有一邊高興"},{"start":33.198,"end":55.518,"text":"也有一邊為了理想而走因為在這個過程當中我們的選舉委員會中選會是要有中立的在剛才本席所聽的好歡樂的就是覺得大家都想你長久以來是在民意教育基金會裡面擔任當事長"},{"start":58.837,"end":62.705,"text":"剛才有很多的委員跟你請教說你可以當時時你說你如果"},{"start":70.07,"end":83.673,"text":"這個人事案過 過得馬上死因為我覺得好的理想雖然是夢死 有的人也說自己每天都要批評民進黨那是怎麼來做這個因為我覺得有擔當的執政黨裡面"},{"start":95.115,"end":118.705,"text":"應該無論他是我什麼人 他是批評什麼人今天我們要做政府單位是看他的認知所以在這裡我保證 我在自己也是國民黨也是我們的朋友任何一黨都是我們的朋友為了理想 為了建設"},{"start":120.146,"end":123.629,"text":"我們都要做法表這是最好的 如果不做朋友 我們也沒辦法不可能法表當中 你的總選委跟你不共同 不一樣的想法 你就不採納他的意見跟他的想法 大家討論之後 才可以"},{"start":145.01,"end":155.484,"text":"有好好的問題出來所以在這個過程當中最重要最重要今天大家差不多都說不再舉投票到時候你有說可以為"},{"start":159.642,"end":163.625,"text":"公投開始 但是在這個過程中你剛才有回答過 今天是怎樣離空一般人會亂吵吵會這麼多人 會開票的時候又有人要投票因為這種的 我相信在你的代言之下 以後可能不會再發生也不是可能而已 一定不會再發生"},{"start":185.762,"end":200.244,"text":"在不在一起投票的時候有很多人歡樂的就是像我們的孫悟寧原譬如他在黨區做孫悟寧原像我自己來說"},{"start":202.366,"end":224.542,"text":"他在當局的補考在當局的要不然他算不領完譬如是在第一樓的票箱第一樓的票箱不是他應該到的地方因為他有申請要不然在這個過程裡面你覺得他最高興的就是議員都一樣市長都一樣"},{"start":229.744,"end":239.957,"text":"但是里長不一樣他這張票如果沒投出來是人養的里長還是他沒投里長大家都知道所以告訴你"},{"start":244.232,"end":271.273,"text":"在這裡面我就是說我們自己也好 全國也好我們今天是要講全國的 但是我是批論這個情形給你聽因為我們中華民國的台灣的選舉是大家最近都認為最好的雖然是很古早的 但是改進到有夠好的因為我們民主黨"},{"start":273.274,"end":281.359,"text":"就是我們有一個派出品在派出品當中有時候會影響到選舉因為我常常說好的人才認真發表的民意代表我們一定鼓勵他當選但是在這個過程當中不再是投票有時候會影響到選舉的結果"},{"start":300.692,"end":321.98,"text":"所以在這要問教授不再去投票本身跟你說因為有時候假期被票的也很多也有現在都回到假期也有但是在假期你如果在棒球第三場很多假期的人在那裡站他不覺得什麼他如果兇勇去申請一個"},{"start":327.742,"end":336.491,"text":"我自己人都沒有在那裡的票櫈我一個伴侶在那裡我今天的票投出來這樣才算秘密投票啦到時候你來回答我所有擔心的事情我們大家來做參考因為未來這可能"},{"start":349.724,"end":368.811,"text":"也會逐一去改善 齁 來翁委員所擔心的一個秘密投票可能破功啦 就出問題這確實是一個問題 要去注意另外就是說你一開始的計較 說我批評民進黨很多我在這裡跟翁委員報告"},{"start":376.93,"end":381.115,"text":"我都是九十輪輸 沒特別去批評民進黨 我也批評共產黨對啦 告訴我我現在 你可能誤會我的意思 告訴我我現在是說 以我民進黨的 有人說 跟你們去提名 常常要批評你"},{"start":396.893,"end":401.097,"text":"我來講民進黨會出的任財 不分什麼 不能跟他批評我們說我們不好我們就不提名他啦 因為他有他的專財嘛我剛才是來講這樣 因為我覺得國家人都講久了 欠費到買廢人嘛"},{"start":421.095,"end":423.018,"text":"所以我要跟你說的就是有這個想法我相信你也聽到了你說的說,你說的事實但是有的人覺得說有需要"},{"start":435.743,"end":440.348,"text":"這樣做嘛這時候我覺得說要讓這個國家愛好像你這個領袖一定很讚的啦我這時候要問你不只是投票你要怎麼去改善本縣兩個"},{"start":453.05,"end":455.612,"text":"會淡雨啦 雨季我們沒人去到台北我跟你們說有兩個地方有很多假日人 那都沒差那天天雨心裡 我才剛才還說如果派出兵"},{"start":468.001,"end":472.163,"text":"我們的生活他有辦法用另外一個生活這個票房跟你們的小家庭你們兩個都沒有去搭這要怎麼處理這才是最重要的啦到我時來講"},{"start":483.973,"end":485.874,"text":"前一陣子我是想問是怎麼邀請你來 因為你有你的專長我認為批評不是壞的 批評可以讓一個人改變他的生活可以做得更好"},{"start":503.343,"end":506.905,"text":"這時期我都覺得很高興像我 我有時候也會覺得說我們做得不好 應該要怎麼做才對啦來謝謝黃委員的指教 全份了解這個不在即投票 我剛才也已經跟大家報告在這裡再說一次就是說"},{"start":527.176,"end":544.847,"text":"不在即投票是一個很複雜的事情不是說化作就去做 那是會造成很大的問題 像這災難所以要循序漸進中商會有提出一個完整的草案給鄉親"},{"start":546.228,"end":557.536,"text":"行政議也通過 交給立法院所以是不是可以用風雄來努力累積經驗來盡量檢討它可能造成的問題包括翁議員你所說的 閉閉投票這種很重要的事情對 剛才我還有兩三個問題想在這幾個時間內交換交給蘇貞霞我們再來探討 希望"},{"start":574.036,"end":588.594,"text":"我們可以做得更好 因為我的想法就是不管你是哪一組 財政委員會也有很多特等都提出的領袖所以我們應該是樂觀青春 可以讓中選會招立"},{"start":592.526,"end":600.535,"text":"去做更好的事情不是在這裡說分什麼檔案這樣是不應該的如果要分什麼檔案在座的都不可能今天來到這裡以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167278","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167278","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67dd5bf8a42fd2b31dff4fe19c94b211847e2c12228464ea44cbe43c8a959977bea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:49:58 - 09:58:15","影片長度":"00:08:17","會議時間":"2026-01-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"1.游被提名人盈隆-立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單，游盈隆為委員並為主任委員，胡博硯為委員並為副主任委員，黃文玲、李禮仲、蘇嘉宏、蘇子喬及陳宗義均為委員，請同意案。【1月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-28","start_time":"2026-01-28T09:49:58+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-28T09:58:15+08:00","duration":497,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.371593750000001,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.016593750000002,"end":12.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.36971875,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.38221875,"end":20.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.41596875,"end":20.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.65221875,"end":21.614093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.614093750000002,"end":60.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.66284375,"end":64.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.78034375,"end":64.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.79721875,"end":80.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.84096875,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.40596875,"end":88.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.99596875,"end":94.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.80096875000001,"end":138.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.12471875,"end":129.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.92909375000002,"end":145.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.60721875000002,"end":147.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.64096875,"end":146.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.75471875000002,"end":149.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.26909375,"end":153.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.98159375,"end":157.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.72346875000002,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.62596875,"end":163.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.29659375,"end":163.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.88721875000002,"end":164.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.35534375,"end":166.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.84034375000002,"end":169.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.70909375000002,"end":172.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.30346875,"end":173.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.89409375000002,"end":177.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.24784375000002,"end":179.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.54284375,"end":183.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.00221875000003,"end":184.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.18346875,"end":185.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.04409375,"end":187.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.00159375,"end":189.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.23346875000001,"end":189.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.73971875,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.65471875,"end":194.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.73034375,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.20659375000002,"end":234.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.94784375,"end":333.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.34159375,"end":339.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.28596875,"end":341.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.47159375,"end":364.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.64471875000004,"end":369.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.20096875,"end":371.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.97284375000004,"end":372.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.85034375000004,"end":373.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.28471875,"end":376.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.05221875,"end":378.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.92534375,"end":379.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.01784375,"end":382.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.78971875,"end":383.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.27909375,"end":383.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.17346875000004,"end":385.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.16471875,"end":387.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.07159375000003,"end":389.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.87721875,"end":390.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.32846875,"end":391.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.37471875,"end":397.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.79596875000004,"end":414.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.83534375000005,"end":416.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.36659375000005,"end":421.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.49659375000005,"end":423.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.44159375000004,"end":426.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42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邱董事長先跟您請教這個不在即投票其實您剛剛已經有提到一個重點就是說不在即投票雖然世界各地有很多國家在施行但是我們不一定要這樣冒進而且如果直接用九合一大選來貿然的進行的話會是一場災難這是您剛剛的論調那我在這邊也想要附和這個"},{"start":47.42,"end":59.072,"text":"論點喔因為其實大家也知道說選舉的公信力是最重要的那選舉如果我們九合一大選直接開始施行不在籍投票的話您剛剛是說會增加9000種選票是嗎就選票的種類來講是將近9000種"},{"start":64.918,"end":93.711,"text":"是的這就是一個非常重大的技術性的問題所以我在這邊想請教的是你們有沒有先算過如果九合一大選只要直接使用不在籍投票會要增加幾倍的經費幾倍的人力多少個投開票所因為我還沒有上任我只是努力的去收集相關的訊息我不知道中選會是不是已經評估出來我目前手邊沒有這樣的資訊"},{"start":94.841,"end":120.94,"text":"好那我在這邊先提供一些資訊喔在2021年內政部其實有大概統計過就是說如果這一些就學就業沒有涉戶籍那可能會因為不在籍投票而可能可以投票的人大概第一名是在雙北大概就有37.4萬人那第二名會在台中有26.5萬人第三名是桃園有26萬人第四名是台北有18.5萬人"},{"start":122.501,"end":144.413,"text":"那如果這一些人通通來申請這個不在籍投票大概就是會增加大概百萬人以上那這個是2021年的數字那台北市的選委會當時也有出來說光是這個投開票所可能就要增加三倍以上那如果現在年底就要來做這件事情的話您覺得可行嗎您就一個選務機關的考量來說"},{"start":150.368,"end":171.854,"text":"選舉2026地方選舉是11月28號舉行今天正好1月28號就是10個月左右我覺得直覺上是不可行的事實上最近中選會也曾經行文給各地方的選舉委員會"},{"start":174.076,"end":194.09,"text":"各地方選舉委員會也都回報關於不在即投票地方的態度沒有一個選委會是同意在這一次採行不在即投票的所以地方事實上也是挫雷彈"},{"start":195.845,"end":225.565,"text":"是嗎因為就我剛剛說的光是台北就說要增加三倍了更不用說其他像是新北台中這一些可能不在籍的人口有大概三四十萬人的這一些選區喔那所以我覺得這當然是一個很大的技術性的挑戰但是話說回來剛剛其實有一句話我其實沒有很認同是剛剛這個有董事長說我們台灣沒有實施不在籍投票跟國際上相比來說是落後的"},{"start":226.285,"end":252.651,"text":"那我必須要說其他的國家跟台灣的情況大大的不同啊你不能拿台灣的情況跟世界各地來比啊請問其他國家有中共借選嗎有一些想要試圖來破壞我們台灣民主的這些境外勢力嗎沒有嘛那再來其他的國家有像台灣這樣經歷過這些什麼中立事件等等買票做票的過去選舉舞弊的歷史嗎"},{"start":254.952,"end":275.175,"text":"也沒有嘛所以台灣的過去民主的歷史是非常艱辛的我們是這樣一步一步大家靠著人民的信任人民的爭取那我相信游董事長過去也是經過這些民主的事件努力撐起台灣的民主的所以一直拿國外來跟台灣比較我覺得非常的不公平"},{"start":275.695,"end":289.553,"text":"那台灣現在需要的是一個非常可信穩定而且有這個選舉公正性的民主制度所以任何的變革我認為都必須要在非常的可信而且公正的基礎上來進行選務的變革沒有不行"},{"start":292.717,"end":318.613,"text":"但是前提非常非常的重要因為台灣的民主很辛苦我們是這樣撐起來的所以在這邊還是拜託我們這個有董事長如果要回答說不再投票是國際的趨勢的時候拜託想想台灣自己特殊的歷史拜託想想台灣過去是怎麼走過來的所以不要一味的說要跟國際上來比較這真的不是一朝一夕可以做到的"},{"start":318.993,"end":332.88,"text":"那最後會有一點時間我跟您請教這個公投綁大選因為過去有董事長一直都是支持公投綁大選的所以在這邊想請教那如果您未來上任之後您還是支持公投綁大選嗎"},{"start":334.38,"end":362.099,"text":"我當然支持公投綁大線而且也沒有不支持的空間因為法律已經修正了所以我在這邊就要請教的是沒錯因為這個藍白還是強行的又再次通過了嘛那我要請教的是那您要怎麼務實的解決過去2018發生的邊開票邊投票的問題開票到半夜三點的問題以及這些因為人綁事而造成這個沒有辦法好好的討論公投議題"},{"start":363.88,"end":390.124,"text":"以上這些問題直接民主是民進黨的核心價值我過去二十幾年來當我是一個民進黨黨員的時候我實際的參與相關的事務無數的民主前輩為了能夠實現公投犧牲奉獻他們的青春生命自由"},{"start":391.437,"end":414.033,"text":"所以公投是一個民進黨的核心價值是所有的民主國家應該要追求的是的 我們都認同我們也非常支持公投制度所以我在這邊跟您請教的是如何防範重演2018邊開票邊投票以及開票到半夜三點以及這些可能會影響選舉結果的可能的情況再度出現"},{"start":415.601,"end":443.373,"text":"2018年是一個噩夢而且這個噩夢的形成有一些條件支持其中一個那您如何預防未來不會再重演呢這是一個選務機關最重要的工作我可以說明一下嗎2018那一次有十項公投這十項公投選委會公告之後一個多月而已就要投票"},{"start":444.645,"end":464.931,"text":"所以造成整個秩序大亂這是其中一個所以這一次經過這幾年來朝野的這個共同的體驗之後修法所以將公告之後一個月就投票改成三個月這是一個很重要的一個改變第二個"},{"start":466.806,"end":489.913,"text":"以前辦理那麼龐大的選務一半法律規定一半是要軍公教人員現在也修正成三分之一只需要三分之一好 是的 謝謝游董事長所以我在這邊希望您可以承諾既然公投綁大選是您的立場也是您的責任那未來希望你可以承諾在你的任內絕對不會再發生2018的噩夢我們盡力而為這個要請你保證喔 謝謝"},{"start":495.714,"end":496.878,"text":"好 謝謝貝提名人 謝謝黃建委員"}]}},{"id":"167277","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167277","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d0adb6b06a24a1e08f4fe19c94b211847e2c12228464ea44cbe43c8a959977bea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:41:34 - 09:49:47","影片長度":"00:08:13","會議時間":"2026-01-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"1.游被提名人盈隆-立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單，游盈隆為委員並為主任委員，胡博硯為委員並為副主任委員，黃文玲、李禮仲、蘇嘉宏、蘇子喬及陳宗義均為委員，請同意案。【1月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-28","start_time":"2026-01-28T09:41:34+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-28T09:49:47+08:00","duration":493,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.62846875,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.37096875,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.796593750000003,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.70284375,"end":20.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.73659375,"end":20.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.95596875,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.42409375,"end":23.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.65596875,"end":23.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.976593750000003,"end":31.570343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.75596875,"end":32.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.18596875,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.45909375,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.81159375,"end":53.828468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.91284375,"end":60.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.84846875,"end":62.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.97471875,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.74346875,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.73784375000001,"end":96.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.39971875,"end":99.81284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.23471875000001,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.62659375000001,"end":105.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.83721875,"end":108.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.34721875000001,"end":116.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.95784375000001,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.99096875000001,"end":127.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.41596875000002,"end":134.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.33471875,"end":136.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.78159375,"end":139.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.02159375000002,"end":141.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.24096875,"end":141.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.97909375,"end":147.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.97409375,"end":148.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.96971875,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.73721875,"end":153.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.38221875000002,"end":157.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.31846875000002,"end":159.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.25909375,"end":161.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.54159375,"end":162.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.90846875,"end":163.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.52846875,"end":165.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.86159375,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.83159375000002,"end":169.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.82721875000001,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.35846875000001,"end":174.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.97409375,"end":178.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.82159375,"end":179.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.91409375,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.89659375000002,"end":185.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.90471875,"end":186.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.92159375,"end":186.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.93846875,"end":187.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.44034375,"end":188.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.45721875,"end":189.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.36409375000002,"end":194.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.92034375,"end":195.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.25346875000002,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.43471875,"end":198.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.93659375000001,"end":199.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.33721875,"end":201.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.81784375,"end":205.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.17596875,"end":206.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.93096875,"end":208.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.75784375,"end":210.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.10346875000002,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.82471875000002,"end":213.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.95096875000002,"end":215.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.65971875000002,"end":219.74346875},{"spe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我一個很擔心的問題我想不出解方也沒有任何人可以提出任何解方未來如果移轉投票變成是選政的一個改變的話"},{"start":128.516,"end":150.361,"text":"我可不可以指定某些人去某個投開票所我去那邊投票跟開票會不會有這種可能發生要看選區吧 要看選區如果 我為什麼要這樣講會變成買票"},{"start":155.684,"end":179.491,"text":"買票的人呢 我要求你收了我的錢你去特定的投開票所投票我買幾票 你沒有開出來幾票 你就是給我跑票未來會發生這種情況欸如果發生這種情況 我不知道各位被提名人啊你們有沒有解方"},{"start":181.253,"end":206.74,"text":"我相信目前都沒有解方啦我不知道教授您的看法我這樣講好了不再急投票我剛剛說的是世界的潮流民主國家採行不再急投票非常多那我們台灣在這方面其實已經落後很久了"},{"start":208.007,"end":236.613,"text":"所以要迎頭趕上我覺得在道理上是說得過去的不在即投票你讓許多無法返鄉的人去在他居住地投票這說起來社會上普遍也是會贊成的但是我也同意張委員剛剛所說的這可能會產生很多的問題包括你說的買票"},{"start":238.641,"end":256.077,"text":"这是因为我们台湾从来没有实施过不在籍投票所以我们不知道会碰到什么情况所以在这样的情况底下事先当然应该做好非常周全的研究调查"},{"start":258.137,"end":283.071,"text":"然後這個考量各種因素然後再來進行我覺得目前中選會所提出的這樣的一個解決方式我覺得是可行的就是說我們要循序漸進不是一步到位我們這個一開始就在這個九合一選舉裡面全面性的弄這個不再急投票這個是太"},{"start":285.883,"end":308.1,"text":"太大胆而且太冒险的作为报复平和不足为训是不是可以未来从公民投票开始先从那里开始实施然后逐步的累积经验然后解决了"},{"start":309.537,"end":321.463,"text":"我們社會或者是很多人們的疑慮我覺得這樣子分階段一步一步的走會是比較好的做法我也是這麼認為我覺得我們先從公投先對視"},{"start":326.416,"end":344.493,"text":"對勢來移轉投票 為什麼呢我也覺得這個不再急投票很多的國家都這樣做那台灣要不要跟著做我覺得這是一個很崇高的理想我也不反對但台灣有特殊的買票文化"},{"start":345.495,"end":364.455,"text":"美國會買票嗎 不會吧 對不對但台灣這個買票文化我們從報紙上就看得非常的清楚到處都有在買票 幾十年來都是這樣那如果我們對人的選舉也實施移轉投票"},{"start":366.121,"end":388.254,"text":"我們的對岸 中國 我跟你講 透過大規模的買票這個是對台灣啊 一個非常嚴重的一個災難所以我個人 我是認為 對全國性的公投 事情我們可以先來做做看 為什麼我要這樣我必須再說 我辦過選舉 我是"},{"start":391.983,"end":410.08,"text":"縣選委會的總幹事我當了四年從村里長的選舉到總統的選舉我都親自辦過我跟你講 選務的複雜程度啊超乎大家的想像我們連一張選票連那個有汙損或印得不好"},{"start":411.587,"end":429.42,"text":"我們要一張一張選票這樣去看 從頭到尾看到尾那個每個人壓力有多大如果你要移轉投票我跟你講 問題太多了我要光說一個你連投票通知單 你選舉公報他要移轉去那裡 要誰去送"},{"start":430.612,"end":454.166,"text":"到時候他說我沒有收到這個有很多技術性的問題所以我必須要說移轉投票不是不行但不能照進照進會把台灣馬上一次垮掉如果一次選舉的不公平大家以後對選委會這個公信力就不在我常講一句選委會"},{"start":456.041,"end":472.854,"text":"如果你要辦選舉 我多給你人 多給你錢很多技術性是可以克服的但公信力是最重要的一件事選務公信力三個字是最重要的所以我還是覺得啦 主委 教授"},{"start":474.485,"end":489.922,"text":"如果你的看法也是一樣就是從事情先來我覺得應該是先朝這個方向不可以一次太躁進不知道教授的看法我完全同意你的看法我覺得這樣做對台灣是比較好的好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167276","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167276","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d904d043bf065bd1ff4fe19c94b211847e2c12228464ea44cbe43c8a959977bea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:33:03 - 09:41:23","影片長度":"00:08:20","會議時間":"2026-01-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"1.游被提名人盈隆-立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單，游盈隆為委員並為主任委員，胡博硯為委員並為副主任委員，黃文玲、李禮仲、蘇嘉宏、蘇子喬及陳宗義均為委員，請同意案。【1月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-28","start_time":"2026-01-28T09:33:03+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-28T09:41:23+08:00","duration":500,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.63784375,"end":10.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.425968750000003,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.46784375,"end":13.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.63971875,"end":25.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.085968750000003,"end":27.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.63846875,"end":29.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.96721875,"end":30.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.878468750000003,"end":32.329718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.549093750000004,"end":44.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.59784375,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.040343750000005,"end":50.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.65596875,"end":74.11221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.48346875,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.53409375000001,"end":74.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.65221875,"end":75.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.36096875,"end":75.37784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.59721875000001,"end":89.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.72159375000001,"end":99.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.06596875000001,"end":103.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.69409375000001,"end":109.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.93784375000001,"end":112.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.12721875000001,"end":117.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.88596875,"end":127.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.80846875,"end":130.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.06534375,"end":148.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.86846875,"end":183.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.63096875000002,"end":186.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.91784375,"end":183.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.03534375,"end":191.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.13596875000002,"end":192.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.80659375000002,"end":196.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.45596875,"end":202.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.32846875,"end":205.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.85534375,"end":207.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.42034375,"end":212.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.36909375000002,"end":217.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.82471875000002,"end":213.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.88721875000002,"end":220.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.94159375,"end":222.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.12284375000002,"end":223.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.19409375,"end":226.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.64096875,"end":228.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.92346875,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.28596875000002,"end":232.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.78784375,"end":237.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.58034375000003,"end":242.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.13221875000002,"end":249.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.32534375,"end":271.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.15721875,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.50721875,"end":282.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.77159375,"end":283.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.51409375000003,"end":284.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.59846875,"end":297.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.82409375000003,"end":298.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.61721875,"end":301.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.39721875000004,"end":341.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.96096875,"end":313.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.11284375,"end":313.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.24346875000003,"end":341.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.25596875,"end":351.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.14471875000004,"end":354.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.04721875,"end":365.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.37034375,"end":367.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.58534375000005,"end":373.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.52096875,"end":376.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.61346875000004,"end":378.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01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我講過是 好 那本席在這邊必須要稱讚您就是你願意講真話的風骨本席予以高度肯定那這邊我本席也要特別講在台灣這個民主史上不管是選舉"},{"start":90.004,"end":113.468,"text":"罷免或是公投在選舉制度上其實是蠻完整的一個制度可是在罷免跟公投上過去產生出了很多問題尤其在罷免上就您的這個評論來講就是執政黨其實利用了罷免裡面很多的漏洞來去做一些這個政黨政治的一些對決跟一些操作所以本席想要這邊特別跟你請教尤其是在罷免"},{"start":115.109,"end":134.011,"text":"這個每個民意代表當選一年內可不可以執行罷免的這個連署的時候其實這個法是無明文規定的可是會造成這個社會上的一個對立喔所以本席必須要說選舉投票是一個民主的行為可是罷免他是一個"},{"start":135.192,"end":153.995,"text":"政黨的一個對決而且造成社會分裂而且是長期會造成一個情熱的問題投票你投誰大家非常清楚嗎而且這是秘密投票大家不知道你投誰可是罷免如果你沒有去連署的話會造成無盡的情熱啊而且說你沒有罷免我遇到很多民眾跟我講說他就是不想要連署罷免"},{"start":154.375,"end":183.109,"text":"可是對民眾這樣子要求說一定要罷免要去簽聯署還有一些攤販跟我講說他如果沒有去聯署罷免人家會跟他恐嚇說你這樣子我的生意讓你做不下去所以我覺得在當選一年內去做這樣子的這個罷免的聯署其實就是現在整個制度上的一個漏洞那我看到你的報告裡面也有想說你未來會倡議說不能去進行這樣子一個動作請問你有沒有一些具體的做法"},{"start":184.13,"end":190.678,"text":"未來可能會跟內政部去討論這樣的事情以目前的制度來看這個對於"},{"start":194.077,"end":220.75,"text":"罷免的規範是在選完一年之後也就是說當選一年之後才能夠進行罷免但是法律沒有禁止社會對就是說有相關的罷免的言論主委你同意這樣子這個不說聯論是大家言論自由可是進行連署的一個方式您自己本身也是不贊成的對吧"},{"start":220.99,"end":242.772,"text":"我不贊成連署因為可以倡議那是言論自由那但是如果這個進行連署的話那就會對於我們想培養的這樣的一個成熟的政治文化是有傷的"},{"start":243.965,"end":261.174,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝教授教授你講的我覺得其實就是我們的心聲為什麼因為其實當時這個連署的一個過程造成社會分裂而且很多民眾其實被情人的恐嚇這樣的狀況其實非常的不好那也希望說未來你有機會擔任主委的時候也要多倡議這樣的行為變成說謝謝"},{"start":263.875,"end":282.118,"text":"那第二個我相信很多委員今天都有在跟你請教就是有關於不在籍投票的一個部分那不在籍投票其實目前其實我覺得這是非常重要因為現在就針對很多在投票所的工作人員他們其實有時候他們現在也是可以不在籍投票嘛是嗎"},{"start":283.899,"end":301.626,"text":"所以現在的行之有年就是很多的工作人員其實在投票所的時候他們是可以進行不在籍投票那所以本席有看到你的報告裡面寫說未來可行不在籍投票的順序第一個是移轉投票針對限定境內或身份特殊或是戶籍地"},{"start":302.446,"end":323.222,"text":"在外的一些選務人員未來可以來考慮或者是在特定身份的不在投票比如說這個原住民族或是服勤的軍警消人員等等我覺得這兩點我覺得非常重要因為第一個很多的公務人員或是警消人員其實他們的工作地跟戶籍地是不一樣的地方所以"},{"start":324.122,"end":351.303,"text":"這個部分本席也支持非常強烈支持您這樣的主張那是不是有一個期程說如果是不是可以先通過比如說我們一般的這個公務人員或是警消人員他們可以先來辦理這樣子的一個不在籍投票是不是可以請你回答根據中選會最近的這個研究跟思考中選會是建議"},{"start":352.653,"end":372.428,"text":"不在籍投票先从单一的公民投票开始实施然后逐步的累积经验之后进一步推广到各项选举所以就这个角度来讲我觉得这样的一个态度是神圣的"},{"start":372.975,"end":392.971,"text":"是負責任的所以未來是不是能夠什麼時候哪一年能夠有一次公民投票然後在公民投票裡面試行不在籍投票然後我覺得那會是一個很重要的開始"},{"start":393.493,"end":416.033,"text":"好 了解 就是先從公民投票先起然後之後再可能再就不特定人再來就是可能有進步有機會可以全面好 那我也希望主委這邊加速來實行那最後一個問題其實 針對其實當時我們這個立法院其實有決議一個這個公投的一個主題叫做反廢死"},{"start":417.074,"end":439.737,"text":"公投那當時是被中選會來就是否定這樣子的這個題目那因為當時這個議題有對很多民眾來講是非常的重要因為當時大家看到很多的這個殺人事件覺得說這樣現在的現在的民進黨政府就是不願意對現在比如說一些的案件去這個判死刑所以當然民眾覺得很"},{"start":440.598,"end":466.582,"text":"不能接受所以當時立法院才有這樣子的一個提案然後沒有想到被當時的中選會給否決那我想要請問主委當然你們否定也沒有當時你們有自己的理由啦那是不是針對這些民眾所關心的重要的這個公投的議題未來是不是有一些可以大家可以溝通的機會而不是說中選會直接把立法院提出的這些公投的主題直接給把它否定掉"},{"start":467.464,"end":486.506,"text":"这是一个很复杂的问题我觉得未来应该要多做沟通我觉得会比较好否则这里面牵扯到太多复杂的问题没有沟通的话引起强烈反弹对社会也不好"},{"start":487.706,"end":498.277,"text":"好 謝謝教授那聽到非常開心有機會第一次跟你這樣子面對面的資訊也期待你可以未來有機會可以當我們中選會的主委謝謝你 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167275","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167275","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d451f291e28511d36f4fe19c94b211847e2c12228464ea44c61cd8283283c7cb85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:24:51 - 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請備題名人游教授好 早安林委員早"},{"start":21.668,"end":35.542,"text":"這個您大部分我們認識游教授都是在新聞媒體上因為這個台灣民意基金會的這個民意調查也算是赫赫有名長時間的滾動提供了政治圈非常多攻打守變的一個素材那大家在"},{"start":36.76,"end":63.322,"text":"這個看到游盈隆教授被列為中選會主委的提名人的時候大家當然是有一些意外也有很多問題想要請教那麼今天很高興有這樣一個機緣可以跟教授來做一下面對面的討論我問的第一個問題就是你應該如何確保啊這個如果有幸成為中選會主委啊因為你平常也評論非常多的一個政治的事務也做民意調查在基金會裡面有職務你怎麼樣確保這之間的分際可以非常的清楚你打算做哪一些的決定"},{"start":66.434,"end":91.969,"text":"謝謝牛委員我已經有了相當的覺悟擔任中選會主委也有一定程度的犧牲是要付出的我可能失去了自由我的意思是說失去評論台灣公開評論台灣政治的自由作為一個政治學者"},{"start":93.268,"end":122.133,"text":"我作為一個關心台灣的知識分子那樣的一個犧牲是重大的但是為了更高的目的為了更重大的目標我覺得我必須做這樣的歌聲一語雄長不能得見好 所以意思就是說不會再發表相關的評論民意調查等等也會離開基金會的職務是這樣的意思嗎如果大院能夠"},{"start":123.303,"end":144.911,"text":"通過中選會主委的人事同意權任命我將辭去台灣民意教育基金會的董事長也辭去董事我採取比法律更嚴格的標準做自我的要求非常好 謝謝"},{"start":146.331,"end":162.758,"text":"那麼我們再針對幾個常常我們在中選會這個平台做討論的題目跟教授做一下意見的交換這個目前立法院有很多的委員提案修正公職人員選罷法或者是不在籍投票的各種相關的一個草案那也有這個"},{"start":164.965,"end":193.317,"text":"這個大家的版本不一樣但大部分的版本基本上都是限於所謂的境內移轉投票有關不在籍投票的部分換言之就是透過登記的部分我不見得要舟車勞頓的返鄉我可以在就近的投票所去投別的選擇在自己戶籍所在地的這樣子的一個投票那我想請問一下被提名人立法院如果修正相關的法令新增了不在籍投票相關的制度限於國內移轉投票請問您會不會忠實的執行立法院通過的法律當然"},{"start":194.352,"end":223.548,"text":"如果立法院通過了不在籍投票中選會只有依法行政全力以赴好 謝謝那您覺得在您如果你有機會領導中選會啦你可能需要多少時間來做好境內移轉投票制度的相關準備工作我不知道這項立法到時候在立法院會如何通過整個制度的內容到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":225.086,"end":253.404,"text":"我不清楚但是我也要就最近我从我们中选会同仁那里所得到的许多的资讯我深深的感觉不在即投票是世界的潮流也是台湾许多人直觉上对的一个"},{"start":254.72,"end":282.519,"text":"努力方向但是当我们在讲世界各国很多都采取了不在籍投票的时候台湾没有感觉到自己落后了自己很惭愧我觉得那种心情是可以理解的我肯定那是一个进步的思维可是我们也不能够脱离现实"},{"start":283.8,"end":310.065,"text":"如果回到我們自己的國家的選舉制度我們深入去看很快就會發現不在籍投票牽涉的是非常複雜的選舉的工程尤其是九合一我打電話 因為時間很有限大概抓多少時間去做它當然是個浩大的工程因為比較具體的想法讓我講這一句"},{"start":313.091,"end":338.411,"text":"尤其是在九合一地方選舉裡面實施不在籍投票就現階段來講肯定是一個災難中選會已經提出來如果在九合一地方選舉辦不在籍投票將會造成將近九千種不同的選票在極端的狀況下所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":342.065,"end":363.287,"text":"很重要的一點 我們喜歡看天邊的彩霞 但不要踩壞了眼前的一大玫瑰讓我們的傲視世界的台灣 選舉然後蒙城教授 那到底是要執行還是不執行 花多少時間準備"},{"start":364.389,"end":380.139,"text":"所以我剛剛講原則上我剛剛已經講但是願意執行但需要很多時間準備實際上要通過什麼樣的制度內容目前您知道嗎還是您可以現在告訴我我可以做回應當然這個有很多不同的版本"},{"start":380.719,"end":402.158,"text":"這個如果你有幸擔任中學會主委相信還有很多討論的機會但因為時間有限我們還有問最後幾個問題因為我們的執政黨曾經表示如果施行不在即投票會導致選民投票的信任消失會有作票的風險也曾經說會有讓中國大陸借選更加容易即便我們剛剛講的現在的不在即投票的版本是國內的移轉投票"},{"start":403.099,"end":427.01,"text":"這樣子的一個說法 你認同嗎在您領導下的中選會 你如何去避免選務公信力下降的問題你該如何把這個東西帶領好你真的覺得不再投票會有作票的風險嗎請你簡要回答就好選務行政的公信力是非常重要 甚至是最重要的讓選民相信選舉的結果是公正的那 但是呢"},{"start":429.871,"end":451.895,"text":"實施不在籍投票最大的困難是來自於執行面在可行性我覺得境外的影響等等可能是比較其次比較其次 還是在於選務整個在操辦選務過程中遇到的一些新政的困難那你有沒有信心可以逐步的解決 我不要講一步到位"},{"start":453.646,"end":480.594,"text":"如果立法院提了一個中選會沒辦法執行的一個方案壓垮中選會我也沒辦法在這邊跟您保證說一定就能夠做得好如果這樣的話是不負責任的好 謝謝教授 因為今天時間有限不過我建議你 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我們是說如果廠商有電子花票那他就不用再檢附那個花票不用再黏來黏去啦 一張紙黏得亂七八糟啦這個系統就自動到財政部那個評判處去好了 副主席這樣 我今天我覺得這件事情還是重要的不管怎麼樣 政府部門因公由公而失剛"},{"start":191.193,"end":213.332,"text":"財政部很努力的在推那現在已經達到八成多了但是政府部門竟然沒有把它列為首要的優先尤其主計單位沒有做這樣的要求我覺得很可惜啊很多地方政府目前做不到我相信很困難因為對他們來說是習慣的改變但是台北市做得到我相信其他單位也做得到至少你主計總署所轄單位應該大力的去宣導可以嗎"},{"start":214.964,"end":240.612,"text":"對 我們的捷報系統就電子化捷報系統就是盡量也可以省很多事情很多人力 很多相關的作業嘛好嗎提供誘因啦你至少開始提出50%的成長率吧好嗎我相信這個組織總書做得到啦只要你下個命令我相信各單位組織單位都會努力以赴嘛你們每年要做那麼多工作這是我的第一個要求副組織長請回"},{"start":242.293,"end":267.533,"text":"好部長那接下來的問題就是等一下那個負稅署署長要上來現在發票已經成為民眾還有商家一定會使用的東西了我不曉得目前為止依照財政部的函式同意發票不是屬於所謂的公益勸募條例裡面的財務範圍所以募發票不需要向衛福部或主管機關來做報備對不對所以誰都可以募發票嗎誰都可以募集發票嗎"},{"start":275.103,"end":289.685,"text":"我們在超商都會捐一個那個發票收集的嘛對不對那個可能是某某某某公益團體我們就被丟進去然後他中獎了增加他的收益嘛對吧那所以不是公益團體可不可以募發票"},{"start":291.571,"end":316.136,"text":"沒有規定沒有規定所以表示任何人都可以募發票募集發票所以大家可以收集發票收集發票要幹嘛中獎嘛另外一種叫幹嘛討漏稅報帳我現在就出示一個非常有趣的畫面在臉書裡面有個社團叫做買賣發票交流團"},{"start":318.548,"end":343.228,"text":"發票買賣交流團裡面有1831個成員然後裡面告訴你說曾賣2月份的加油發票可協助塔桶邊我的加油發票我可以賣我可以打你的桶邊請你跟我聯絡接下去受工程發票百分之比%可談請跟我聯絡也就是我在賣發票還公然賣發票"},{"start":346.226,"end":370.155,"text":"接下来有需要工程发票请找我可以当场交易另外一个是找长期配合开发票的工程公司收加油发票4000块去打桶边的高雄面交者家发票面额10%作为酬劳部长我刚问是不是每个人都可以搜集发票"},{"start":371.553,"end":398.844,"text":"這是不可以的而且還做這個買賣而且他是公開社團你現在部長你現在打開臉書你也看得到還有一個承收一月份的加油發票共需六千塊虛打公司同編接受雙北面交易發票面額百分之十支付買賣要加油發票幹嘛員工要拿回去公司報帳的啦或者是公司在蒐集裡面做抵銷的啦"},{"start":400.509,"end":422.676,"text":"拿工程發票幹嘛 抵稅嘛都是這一種 這裡面一頭拉骨人一頭拉骨 這個查過沒 要不要查這個部分我們盡快去查這個部分我們盡快去查他已經行之有年 甚至有人直接說跟我聯絡 還有人上去抱怨說我都已經打完你的編號了 結果你失聯了"},{"start":425.806,"end":439.173,"text":"還在這邊抱怨表示這件事情行之有年公司員工拿假發票回去公司報帳小錢那個賣工程5%的發票的人是大錢啊負稅署知道這件事嗎"},{"start":443.614,"end":465.553,"text":"國稅局知道這件事嗎剛才我有請同仁去問一下國稅局局長他們目前是都說沒有聽到這件事就是我上臉書就查得到然後你們沒聽說這樣是怎樣不是提醒他就在那裡anytime你只要上去打發票買賣就有這個臉書的網而且他裡面一堆而且應該行之多年"},{"start":468.101,"end":483.686,"text":"買賣發票 我剛講公益團體可以募集發票他只能拿去對講除非公益團體也拿去核銷那就有問題但這個擺明了就是要逃漏稅幫助逃漏稅是不是有刑責的"},{"start":485.486,"end":486.306,"text":"如果我們查到具體證據一定會依法處理"},{"start":506.617,"end":523.057,"text":"這其實是很嚴重的問題如果獅子是對獎那就算了你沒有拿出去交易現在是要依照相關的規定稅捐基徵法41條買發票的部分他以詐欺或其他不正方法逃漏稅捐"},{"start":524.591,"end":553.442,"text":"要五年以下有期徒刑如果幫助或教唆一樣三年以下有期徒刑這些不管是幫助還是教唆甚至已經在從事甚至已經交易完成然後已經拿到公司去抵稅了這每一個中間你都要查可以嗎可以我們立即處理而且嚴重的是還主動說我公司可以賣"},{"start":555.646,"end":580.56,"text":"公司可以賣發票 這件事情知識體大他賣了多少 賣了多久 逃了多少稅嚴懲不待 抓到 移送追究他多年來的行為 可以嗎我們會盡速處理 而且依法處理這個不能只有我知道 你們不知道啊國稅局不知道更離譜啊"},{"start":582.506,"end":607.318,"text":"已經我們常年都在抓這種討論所以看到他的肖像 鏡像不正常我們也會主動去集合對不對對 沒錯我們本來就在查對那人家大剌剌在外面賣這是明目張膽這是明目張膽而且是公開社團你說他私密社團也就算你找不到公開社團每天都在你現在就可以上去幫他打個統變他就給你10%"},{"start":609.318,"end":634.346,"text":"有沒有很離譜因為每個人平常就會加油嘛只是加油了我們就是放在口袋裡然後拿到拿到等到時間拿出來對講他不是耶你放口袋裡之後你我幫你打了統編你還可以去公司報這個稅然後你還要給我報仇發票不該變成犯罪的工具是發票不該變成我們國家鼓勵人民不誠實的工具對吧是"},{"start":635.206,"end":656.979,"text":"還可以拿出來銷售還可以拿出來買賣這些都是不能接受的對吧好所以我給你一點時間雖然我們民眾黨團還是會有新的委員來接所以這個部分部長請你一個月之內查清楚回文給所有民眾黨團還有我們財政委員會的委員好嗎好我們立即處理好謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝我們結束黃珊珊委員的質詢接下來請林思敏委員"}]}},{"id":"167285","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167285","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67db9f4c96d2335ff93f4fe19c94b211847e2c12228464ea44c6a2d8103b2bcc79e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:59:39 - 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執政黨的烏鴉那譬如說在去年的大罷免的時候你有很多的評論"},{"start":50.825,"end":76.693,"text":"你的評論是大罷免是台灣民主之恥而且你曾經痛批有兩大戰犯死不認錯就是包含民進黨黨團的柯建民總召還有沈伯陽委員那你有提到就是大罷免是災難性的民主內戰那當然其實你的評論也不止於此所以你這一次在被提名的時候外界其實有很多人是驚訝的"},{"start":77.893,"end":101.792,"text":"那甚至有一種說法是說你可能可以得到在野黨這個委員的票數但是民進黨內部很多人對你有意見所以您認為在這一次的整個的提名的表決過程裡面你目前評估你可以得到民進黨全數的票數同意你嗎"},{"start":104.292,"end":130.057,"text":"這部分我不敢去評估不敢評估所以有可能有可能會有人跑票我不知道好那另外請教一下因為我剛特別提到了一些大罷免在這個過程裡面很多人就開始談到一些我們法律跟一些制度上的問題在之前我們通過了就是在聯署要付身份證影本"},{"start":130.902,"end":146.773,"text":"民進黨政府有來提出復議但是呢並沒有拿去釋憲所以這個應該已經是可以確定的這個行政院也沒有拿去釋憲然後我想請問一下我們還有一個版本就是呢"},{"start":147.313,"end":168.242,"text":"加一版本就是你的被罷免票數要多過就是被罷免要多過你之前之前的當選的票數才能夠確定被罷免那我不曉得游教授你對於這一個的修法版本你個人的意見是什麼你同意嗎謝謝委員我的看法是這樣第一個"},{"start":178.157,"end":192.388,"text":"加護這個身份證這個是加嚴這個罷免權的行使這個坦白講在某個程度上我是贊成的因為全世界各國國會議員是沒有什麼國會議員罷免制度的"},{"start":197.83,"end":216.07,"text":"沒錯啊所以就這個部分來講我純粹基於學者的立場我是覺得加嚴我是可以同意的那第二個就立委提罷免同意票高於當選票我覺得這兩個不能夠相"},{"start":217.736,"end":220.918,"text":"不能相提並論所以你對於加1的版本你個人有疑慮"},{"start":228.257,"end":254.287,"text":"我覺得那個不合理好你覺得不合理好因為我們今天是審查必須把一些就是我們現在修法的過程要就教於你另外我看到你回答就是我們立法院各黨團的就是有關於罷免的部分我們在罷免的過程裡面有很多的不合理其中有關於是政治獻金因為我們自己是從身為被罷免人"},{"start":254.867,"end":280.727,"text":"那因為我們是被監督的對象但是相對在政治獻金上就出現了一個極不平衡的狀態如果在選舉裡面不管是多少人參選每一個人都是受到政治獻金法的一個規範但是我們在這一次被罷免裡面其實整個的政治獻金是非常非常混亂的"},{"start":282.108,"end":303.295,"text":"那我看到你的回答是說你也認為即便是罷免者罷免者包含領銜人也好或罷免團體他的政治獻金也應該受到一定的管理和規範所以我想請問你這個部分你要不要再講一下就是有關於政治獻金的規範你個人的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":305.287,"end":323.183,"text":"政治制度是演進的不是從一開始就完美無缺所以經過不斷的實踐實驗之後該修的是應該要修我個人的意見是被罷免"},{"start":324.793,"end":338.764,"text":"的人要受到政治獻金法的限制那但是提罷免的人目前沒有任何的這方面的沒有任何規範所以我覺得未來是可以考慮修法"},{"start":339.498,"end":343.861,"text":"雖然政治獻金法的主管機關並不是中選會但是這涉及了選務選舉跟罷免的公平性的確因為這樣所以我才才表示意見所以你也認為這個應該修好另外一個在這次罷免裡面"},{"start":357.389,"end":365.396,"text":"有一個完全回憶於過去的做法這次中選會也被我們認為是極為不中立而且有政治辦案之嫌就是有關於在聯署告發聯署 錯假聯署的時間過去事實上去年大罷免並不是第一次也不會是最後一次"},{"start":382.432,"end":387.356,"text":"但是中選會過去歷次針對有關於罷免的錯假連署每一個包含韓國瑜 王浩宇 陳柏惟黃婕 所有的都是在"},{"start":397.964,"end":420.018,"text":"投票之後然後去做告發每一個都在投票之後去做告發唯有一次例外唯有一次例外就是在去年的大罷免大家可以看到去年大罷免整個去告發錯假連署然後去偵辦錯假連署大概都是史上這個最為激烈的一次"},{"start":420.638,"end":423.079,"text":"那這中間就是跟中選會的告發時間有關那到底這個告發時間應該是在連署期間呢或者是在投票之後不要去影響最後的罷免結果其實應該要有一套制度的"},{"start":439.088,"end":458.941,"text":"但是中選會當時就是完全違反過去的做法當然就被我們認為說這個是有政治辦案的嫌疑所以這個就是中選會的業務了所以我想請問我們主委被提名人如果你擔任主委"},{"start":460.701,"end":476.084,"text":"針對未來夾是有這個連署 錯假連署其實這個連署還不只是罷免 還有選舉也會有這個你是不是應該建立一套一個可長可久的制度而不是隨著不同的情境而改變對我來講 這個時候要回答這個問題的確是困難的怎麼會困難我還是要回答這個問題這個一點都不困難吧我還是回答這個問題"},{"start":489.726,"end":496.556,"text":"我自己也參選過所以我也知道其實選舉期間為了避免影響選舉"},{"start":498.484,"end":527.272,"text":"即便有嫌疑人涉嫌犯罪检调司法单位也都是事后侦办事前也有一些但是基本上不会这么做所以我不了解大坝棉去年实际的状况他们是怎么样做成决定我不了解那是一页沧桑史我觉得事后可以再去检讨改进"},{"start":527.836,"end":538.452,"text":"好我特別指出這個這個其實完全是技術性的竊選完全是技術竊選有非常多種好不好因為我時間到了不耽誤下面時間好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167284","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167284","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67dc849e61b0c96adf0f4fe19c94b211847e2c12228464ea44c6a2d8103b2bcc79e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"10:47:32 - 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劉部長的說法是否已經有擴張裁量權 異越法律授權的這個問題那我先把問題說完那請這個被提名人"},{"start":103.818,"end":125.85,"text":"有教授你就等一下再一起回應 我時間有限第二個問題就是參政公平性的問題那一個人可以參選 後來當選但是最後是要高度仰賴對岸去要去出具這個文件然後才會被撤銷 可是事實上這中共不會發的那是否會侵害到他的陸配的一個憲法平等保障的這個參政權"},{"start":127.211,"end":154.731,"text":"那第三個就是說國家終審如何制度化這是民進黨非常重視的這個問題那終審應該的審核是在選前明確可預期的法律要求之下但是還是說他還會依據選後補件那如果拿不出來就撤銷那因此就想說如果要在最後的這個在這個相關的法律還沒有整合之前您是否認為說終選會應該主動的面對這樣一個法律衝突請劉教授回答 謝謝"},{"start":157.037,"end":181.274,"text":"這的確是一個非常棘手的問題對中選會來講一方面來講站在保障參政權的立場這個中選會會樂見所有的國民的參政權都被完整的保障但是兩岸關係是高度的複雜"},{"start":183.622,"end":211.028,"text":"相關的法例到目前為止也沒有就這一點有非常完備清楚的立法所以在這種情況底下就留下了一個模糊的空間這個空間內政部有內政部的主張中選會在這上面幾乎沒有去主張什麼的這樣的一個立場"},{"start":213.117,"end":220.163,"text":"但主觀上您作為一個學者作為一個學者我覺得兩岸是一個高度複雜的問題我覺得這個目前這樣的一個問題"},{"start":226.42,"end":243.011,"text":"你就是侵犯他的公平參政權嗎這是好幾個價值牽扯在這裡面所以即便是在過去多年以來有國民黨執政時代有民進黨執政時代但通通沒有去根本解決這個問題所以這問題遺留下來這問題坦白講對中選會來講要交給中選會去處理這個是中選會沒這個能力"},{"start":255.091,"end":271.374,"text":"所以您就未來就是草獨立機關就不處理了是嗎不是 我的意思是說那這個部分你應該是行政院這個可能秘書長要去回應那我現在去問的一個問題更重要的是那特別法跟普通法的這個問題適用您應該怎麼看法呢根據法律寫當然我們在座有很多法律專家特別法是優於普通法所以兩岸人民關係條例但是這兩者因為"},{"start":286.199,"end":296.866,"text":"兩岸關係高度的複雜牽扯的非常複雜的歷史的因果這裡面可能會衍生很多很多的問題就選務機關來講選務機關並沒有這種職權去做這個讓"},{"start":303.87,"end":325.098,"text":"所有的人滿意的 我知道啦被提名人劉教授你就是現在在一個審查期間這個問題應該是民進黨非常care的問題的那的確也是有他的複雜性但是這個不叫全國的人民包括學者專家必須好好去針對這個問題去好好去針對大家的部分要知道他的公平心那這個"},{"start":326.619,"end":354.995,"text":"還有再一個問題在於說我們看到的是國內移轉投票的問題國內移轉投票它涉及到的又是一個價值非常重要的涉及到公平的平等權跟自由跟秘密投票然後也涉及到國家的信任那我剛才也聽到是主委是不是您對於一般我們民眾黨是提出來是國內移轉投票請其他的政黨就是尤其是民進黨不要去特別的去汙名化國內的移轉投票那請我想要說那個被提名的你針對"},{"start":356.497,"end":360.525,"text":"這國內移選投票的話 您的態度是支持還是怎麼樣我支持啊"},{"start":361.391,"end":385.784,"text":"我完全同意 但是我覺得不是一步到位沒錯 沒錯 我後面繼續問下去那這個部分我知道你也在你對民眾黨的回應報告當中也有提到說他必須按部就班因為涉及到國家信任的問題還有安全的這個秘密投票問題那你的意思是說先從公投開始嘛對不對包括是從選舉到原住民地方到中央是嗎"},{"start":386.704,"end":403.743,"text":"好 那重點是 相關的問題包括說我們就他的一個配套措施就是說他對於秘密投票有被破壞的問題還有對選票保管跟運送的問題 那就這兩點你是不是有可能能 如果你當中選會的主委你有沒有什麼後續的一個配套措施規劃或是想法 初步的現在"},{"start":404.727,"end":426.558,"text":"我還沒有上任中選會主委啦不過我已經很努力的在了解相關的狀況我覺得技術上來講應該是可以處理啦否則這個像原住民的這個部分已經有了初步的大院也已經通過了相關的法律來解決這個問題我覺得"},{"start":431.03,"end":440.289,"text":"這個基本上是不會有大問題所以是基本上技術性沒有大問題是不是願意要不要做行政機關這部分要不要做的問題我想要講清楚的就是說"},{"start":441.775,"end":468.495,"text":"如果不在即投票立刻就要實施在2026的這一次九合一地方選舉那是幾乎所有的人包括22個這個地方的選舉委員會就是各縣市六都都齊齊以為不可所以應該要分階段然後實施之後能夠獲得社會的信心社會的信賴"},{"start":469.435,"end":486.661,"text":"我們再來推展到選舉上面去所以大家可以預期如果您順利當選到中選會主委的話應該會提出中選會的版本半部就版了 就實施可行性去進行嗎是 我希望這樣子好 謝謝 那另外最後一個問題 這個主席先"},{"start":489.042,"end":507.532,"text":"包容一下 這地方就說您在民眾黨的回應報告當中有提到說呢對於中選會對公投案的審查僅限法律明定要件不涉及到價值判斷不涉及到價值判斷那就是這部分嘛那請問是說如果是針對114年"},{"start":510.137,"end":537.046,"text":"在有送到中選會的就立法院的一個有公投案這樣子的案提到的中選會去做審查的時候拿到100這一個時候是針對說題目是您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決的政策呢這個立法院公投案假設您現當時是一個中選會的主委您對於這樣子的一個案子是否能夠成案您的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":538.406,"end":551.774,"text":"我觉得那一个案子对中选会来说我事后了解中选会承受了空前巨大的压力要做出一个正确的一个决定是非常困难的"},{"start":552.605,"end":579.971,"text":"但是我們也要注意到中選會不是立法院提出了前部否決中選會也同意也處理了河山研議公投是的所以有一個通過一個不通過我相信上一屆的中選會委員會有他們的相當完整的思維但是主委被提名人我是問您的看法我是問您的看法"},{"start":582.512,"end":608.957,"text":"我的看法對這個議題我覺得這是一個非常困難的問題您這樣狀況是您的初步判斷因為這涉及到的是在程序上面這部分你是指的 劉委員我再把題目說一遍 您是否同意各級法院和議題法官判處死刑不需一次決之政策那這個部分是讓民眾去決定"},{"start":610.948,"end":635.647,"text":"所以他如果過程當中的程序上面並沒有違反的話應該是讓民眾去決定公投的意思就是在這樣子一行沒錯 我充分了解你的意思而這正好也就是觸及了或凸顯了目前台灣這個司法審查權跟直接民選 直接民主之間的衝突"},{"start":637.85,"end":666.167,"text":"所以這個問題到目前為止還社會還不是完全了解但是我覺得社會可以廣泛的去討論是不是公民投票的結果不能抵觸憲判這是一個很嚴肅的憲政的問題我覺得社會可以去討論但是上一屆的這樣的一個裁決我現在也算半個當事人我不便表達意見好"},{"start":667.314,"end":692.982,"text":"這樣好謝謝至少我覺得這個被提名的劉教授您提出出來之後你知道現在在審查期間包括也是你過去的在民進黨的黨員後來你退黨但是你就知道說你自己有一個這個學者的價值這個風範我是覺得已經建立起來就是有一個高度肯定但我希望說您如果被立法院同意的話呢你就繼續的在這個位置上面就是在跳脫到政治堅守到行政中立"},{"start":693.382,"end":714.448,"text":"然後也重建中選 各界對於中選會的這樣一個信任因為大家都覺得中選會那個中是中於執政黨的那個中然後也落實到法定選務然後保障人民的實質參與這對你的期許這一點請委員放心好 謝謝游盈隆就是游盈隆 不會改變好 我們期待大家有目共睹期待OK 謝謝謝謝 感謝劉淑檳委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167274","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167274","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d167b7558ba6f2a1611b3bb87f1b5dc7ae2c12228464ea44cdab1372d823571c45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:58:51 - 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抑制逃漏稅進而提升政府營業稅收也就是說我們民眾他願意拿發票國家的稅收就會增加稅收增加才會有更穩定的獎金來源"},{"start":43.396,"end":67.531,"text":"所以請問部長既然統一發票中獎的獎金來源是由我們預估的營業稅來支應當我們今年度的營業稅收增加的時候財政部是不是也應該按比例或至少適度的在下年度去把這個增加中獎的獎項數目與獎金總額"},{"start":71.954,"end":98.069,"text":"跟委員報告就當說超增的時候不要講減的時候超增的時候營業稅增加的時候是不是要適度的做回饋我想這個部分剛剛委員講得很清楚也就是我們其實這麼多年來都是按當年度的預算案數來編那至於實增數因為在我們編列的時候並不知道實增數會多少那有增也有減"},{"start":98.669,"end":117.073,"text":"也会超过预算数也会少于预算数那这个部分呢如果要再补的话就必须要两年后再来补因为在编的时候那我想这个部分也涉及到法律在适用上是不是可以这样做以及预算的编列上是不是因为我们本来这边是税出税入这样子"},{"start":117.093,"end":140.5,"text":"所以部長您意思是說法律上可不可以編的問題因為法律上這個部分第一個我們現行的營業稅法你也認同我的講法因為你這個就是以營業稅來這個編預算來編那個百分之三來這個作為獎金這個是這個比例是已經固定下去了所以你的營業稅增加的時候"},{"start":141.42,"end":150.823,"text":"按照我們法律的規定你就是必須要把這個增加的營業稅的3%增加的部分你也要拿出來去作為獎金這是法律的規定因為我看到你的報告說這個如果增加的我不編就收歸國庫你剛才有回答賴斯堡委員這樣講"},{"start":162.416,"end":187.489,"text":"我們因為營業稅當年度的收入我們先估一個全年的營業稅的收入然後再把3%把它先算出來那個是周圍的這個變成稅出你就是預估一個營業稅的稅入是多少在按財化法的規定在劃歸中央跟地方分兩塊部長我告訴你其實這跟財化法沒有關係是有關係的"},{"start":189.77,"end":212.527,"text":"怎么会有关系呢这个就是你营业税3%都是作为奖金另外97%你当然就是依照财务法的规定去分配给地方我现在讲的是营业税法的法律规定那么清楚3%应作为奖金那你怎么可以把这个3%收回国库呢你收回国库的法律依据在哪里"},{"start":214.188,"end":232.804,"text":"稅收收入國庫是基本的啊不是 但是你營業稅法有規定啊你就沒有依法所以我現在的問題在執行面到底下下年度你剛才一直提到嘛下下年度依照相關的預算法能不能編的問題嘛是不是這樣子這部分我請那個蔡副組長"},{"start":234.145,"end":244.394,"text":"我想這個部分我再跟你講清楚一點我覺得還是要回饋給我們的這些納稅人還有我們的人民讓人民有小確幸"},{"start":247.904,"end":261.671,"text":"主席長我現在告訴你你今天的書面報告的結論我念一下給你聽你說統一發票的設計 給獎規範及相關政策內容均由財政部依營業稅法第58條的規定訂定統一發票的給獎辦法並負責統籌規劃與執行"},{"start":268.614,"end":287.255,"text":"本处于年度预算的筹编过程配合财政部推估次年度全国营业税收的预算数何时匡列相关经费以维持统一发票给奖制度的稳定性并确保相关制度措施得以延续是是是"},{"start":287.515,"end":301.522,"text":"所以你的報告是說要依照營業稅法58條何時來編列但是如果說假設我們講今年度的營業稅超出你原來預估的徵收額"},{"start":303.479,"end":316.975,"text":"那依照58年的規定如果超徵了100億那你要把3%你要把3億再拿出來這個再看在下下年度去做編列這個預算去讓這個民眾來這個抽獎是不是應該這樣子"},{"start":320.441,"end":339.454,"text":"是 報告委員我們在去年8月就把預算送到立法院 是啊送今年 所以去年8月的時候當時要110年會收多少營業稅那是預估嘛 預估嘛所以就用 因為要編預算嘛它預估有5000"},{"start":340.955,"end":344.419,"text":"這個都沒有問題啦我現在只是這樣問你好了啦因為我們現在一直講到說下下年度到底可不可以編啊"},{"start":357.833,"end":373.471,"text":"那你認為可不可以變因為假設我們超徵的就是100億那其中3億就是依法你一定要作為統一發票的獎金那你是不是可以在下下年度把這筆超徵的稅收"},{"start":374.936,"end":390.901,"text":"編在下下年度裡面的公共預算是 報告委員這個給講的辦法這個是財政部的權責嘛沒有啦 預算是你編的啊你要跟財政部討論啊但是他對這個他們的條文的解釋啊我們當然要尊重主管機關"},{"start":392.061,"end":409.398,"text":"那部長他推給你我請教你部長因為我是這個我是覺得從依法我們要核實編列法律的規定就是3%即便你今天有多收那你也要想辦法在下下年度去把它回補回去啊而不是把它這個就納入國庫啊這已經明顯違反營業稅法了嘛"},{"start":414.617,"end":438.764,"text":"對不對我這樣講有沒有道理跟委員報告營業稅法很明確就是說以由全年營業稅收入總額中提出3%這個全年就是指這一個年度但是你後來整個這個年度的3%但是你當初在編預算的時候是按照你整個去預估預估出來的但是你最後"},{"start":439.804,"end":454.77,"text":"你超真的 超真的是不是你也要何時編列依照音樂稅法何時編列統一發票的獎金稅收是不是一定會比預算數來得多這不確定 但是我們說最後整個年度的預算去計算的結果確實超真的"},{"start":463.354,"end":480.978,"text":"那短徵的時候比如說我們現在不講短徵啦我現在是跟妳講短徵當然沒有問題啊現在講說超徵的時候妳超徵的稅收依照營業稅法妳要拿出來做這個獎金啊那如果因為如果短徵的話像114年短徵288億我覺得我還是希望妳們依法執行啦我們現在都是依法在執行的所以說這個妳去檢討一下好不好"},{"start":490.16,"end":495.71,"text":"這部分要檢討一下因為時間的問題我是覺得你們要檢討這樣才是依法行政另外針對那個"},{"start":505.731,"end":527.459,"text":"因為我們針對信用貸款的問題我們想台美關稅議定的內容中國發會主導的2500億的信用保證借款也會要求各行庫共同組織國家隊所扮演的角色除了融資以外也會共同出面提供保證的一個額度所以部長"},{"start":528.439,"end":539.296,"text":"若是按照政府這樣的規劃八大公股行庫都要加入這個信用保證計劃所以部長我們有沒有試算過各公股行庫要負擔多少的融資額度"},{"start":540.976,"end":563.456,"text":"部分因為國發會還在規劃當中那除了我們公股行庫之外國發基金以及民營行庫也會一起邀請加一起加入所以有關相關細節的部分大概多少現在都還不知道都還沒有做這個最後的確認是的他們還在規劃我想我們115年度的各公股行庫的預算已經編列了"},{"start":565.534,"end":573.057,"text":"為了因應這項計畫若是各行庫沒有另外的一個增資計畫是否會相對的排擠到其他國內企業融資的一個需求這個部分我們一定會去考慮他們的一個資本的部分我相信國發會在規劃的時候也會邀同我們的公股行庫一起去討論"},{"start":589.62,"end":594.442,"text":"所以公共航空都要去討論所以我請各位董事長上台一下好不好時間暫停一下我簡單問各位 各位簡單回答"},{"start":614.161,"end":624.661,"text":"我想如果說就是如果屆時國發會要求各位就是要提供一定的一個融資的一個保證"},{"start":627.109,"end":655.622,"text":"如果各行庫因為你現在預算已經編了未來各個行庫將會採取怎樣的方式來調整信用核貸的額度比如說我們假設我們房貸的需求會不會因為說這次你們要加入信保的融資而影響到我們房貸的需求你們要如何來調整因應我們請各位董事會一一回答好不好先請趙鋒金好了"},{"start":659.778,"end":685.541,"text":"不會影響我們有很多的方式譬如說我們自己的增資或者是發行次數的債券或者是吸收存款等等我們有很多的方式來因應所以你們有因應的措施但是我們只要求一件事情就是說因為對美國的投資是所有的ICT產業的大家共同投資所以不應該這些產業是台灣所有銀行業的客戶所以不應該只是由關股來做關股我們可以來先做但是也希望其他的民營銀行也必須要加入"},{"start":686.101,"end":711.85,"text":"OK 好 所以你們有因應措施土銀跟委員報告 如果說國家融資保證需要土地銀行也參與的話就比照現在的中小企業信用保證基金一樣我們可能會在當年度如果不足的部分我們會補辦預算的方式來增加這一筆的支出是 好 那個台銀 林董"},{"start":713.833,"end":727.928,"text":"報告委員我們對於企業的融資主要還是看整個銀行的可以承作的能量我們台銀本身在所有的銀行當中包括民營的銀行我們的存款是最多的所以我們的量基本上應該是夠的是足夠的"},{"start":729.269,"end":757.314,"text":"是足够的只是说因为我们的预算呢必须要经过这个大院的审议那我们的预算已经编列了那115年其实是还没有开始审那至于后续呢如果要需要我们去做增值的话呢那这部分可能我们也有向行政院反映所以你们有调整的方式啦没有我有向行政院反映说这个可能还要看看这个预算的编列到底到时候这个大院审议的时候是不是有可以做一个调整的空间是是好谢谢好我们请华英"},{"start":761.84,"end":784.229,"text":"我懷疑目前來說如果從資本市足率來看的話我們還是有空間的那我想因為整個需求的面目前還沒有完整的統計而且剛剛也誠如趙鋒董事長說的希望是全體的銀行一起來參加而不是只有供股行庫"},{"start":785.327,"end":791.935,"text":"我們的loading應該是可以接受的是可以承受了好 謝謝我們請第一金控"},{"start":795.782,"end":814.395,"text":"蕭委員報告第一金庫這幾年來因為盈餘的增加我們的整個資本市場率在今年底是大幅的提升超過法定的標準蠻大的所以我們有足夠的空間可以來因應企業的需求不會排擠到其他的企業的融資蠻大的空間可以增加謝謝合作金庫 門合庫"},{"start":821.921,"end":846.237,"text":"委員包括我們業務的承作空間企業基金的業務承作空間還是有的那這個部分應該是另外一種是應該不會排擠到我們國內的承作空間好 謝謝我們彰化商營包委員我們本來在那個放款就變一定的成長力那我相信配合政策這個部分的話彰化營養沒有問題 謝謝都沒有問題啦 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那圖銀呢謝謝 謝謝林董事長那我們圖銀何董事長"},{"start":124.313,"end":139.874,"text":"土銀的部分的話是在過年前會有先戒資1.5個月然後我們全年的年終獎金大概落在每年的七八月的時候才會把這4.4個月花完所以那過年前咧"},{"start":140.732,"end":170.08,"text":"過年前就是先戒指它一年五個月那所以跟這個台灣銀行是一樣應該正常是一樣然後是到七八月的時候才對 考了下來以後才會把四點四個月全部花了對啊 因為過年前總是希望大家要領年終你七八月再領就不叫年終獎金了那也是一樣四點四個月是你看這個部長這個你直屬下面的這個大概台灣銀行跟土地銀行就是四點四個月來 那我們這一個公股洋龍頭來 招風的董董事長"},{"start":171.209,"end":198.647,"text":"委員好我們的程序大概差不多不過我們的獎金包括就是兩個月的年終獎金那另外還有呢就是績效那績效當然就要看整個績效情況那另外還有一項就是我們的員工酬勞所以那個部分就變成要開了董事會的時候才能決定的所以整個加起來今年如果發去年的話大概是八個月左右八個月那所以今年呢今年應該不會今年是發的是去年的那去"},{"start":201.229,"end":223.593,"text":"今年的年終獎是發去年的對 發去年整個年度的經營績效好 那大概是八個月左右八個月八個月左右 好 謝謝接下來第一金控 邱董事長八個月喔哇 這個其他我看這個林董事長跟這個何董事長我們員工表現也不差啦但是沒有辦法這個財政部這邊有一關卡住了來 邱董事長"},{"start":225.668,"end":252.545,"text":"第一青鳳這邊去年已經也是創新高我們年終獎金大概包括所謂的考積績效跟員工酬勞將近八個月會在年結的時候先預支一個月然後在四月份再將剩餘的款項再撥給同仁也是一樣大概八個月左右所以也是先預支一個月一個月會不會太少我看其他比如說像台銀土地銀行都有兩個月"},{"start":253.928,"end":261.544,"text":"我們一個月但是我們春節獎金也有一個月這樣子所以是"},{"start":262.17,"end":286.826,"text":"大概在年中的時候會發兩個月發兩個月這樣比較合理不然其他的你們績效也很好其他都可以先發到兩個月你們如果只發一個月看起來是稍微少一點所以是可以發到兩個月是嗎 還是一個月中間的中是有一個月然後在春節前介是一個月將近兩個月這樣子"},{"start":288.24,"end":308.599,"text":"那我覺得還是你們要去檢討一下啦如果說大家都可以發到兩個月因為這個只是先給你拿未來還是會還你啊對不對那我覺得你們考慮一下啦如果可以的話我覺得還是給員工兩個月啦好不好好謝謝謝謝邱董事長接下來黃藍金寇陳董事長"},{"start":311.345,"end":340.334,"text":"我們一直以來都是年前先發1.5個月然後剩餘的是在4月的時候會發放那預計今年的話會超過7個月超過7個月那我也建議啦就是兩個月啦你們也是1.5個月嘛對啊這個我覺得也是可以兩個月啦好不好如果其他銀行都有兩個月的話這個不然大家會互相比較啊好不好好謝謝謝謝陳董事長合作金庫林董事長"},{"start":342.403,"end":360.798,"text":"包括我們的年終獎金大概預期也是會超過七個月那過年前也是會先發考核獎金一個月然後還有一個月的戒指那所以是兩個月我還是希望如果有機會還是超兩個月啦好謝謝謝謝林董事長來張華銀行胡董事長"},{"start":365.792,"end":390.33,"text":"我們今年一季大概發總共接近八個月那我們會先發一個半月然後另外介資一個半月所以你們有三個月是三個月那看起來是這樣比較起來是彰化銀行的這一個對員工來講是最溫暖的好謝謝謝謝吳董事長台灣中小企業銀行李董事長"},{"start":391.511,"end":407.355,"text":"是 報告委員我們的講述辦法裡面三節是發兩個月所以春節會先發一個月然後再戒支1.5個月所以是2.5個月是那全年呢全年今年預估去年因為獲利創新高大概會超過8個月超過8個月是"},{"start":409.816,"end":424.719,"text":"好 謝謝等一下所有董事長在留步等一下還有問題要問你們來 莊部長所以先聽起來大概其實除了台灣銀行跟土地銀行之外大概都有七八個月的水準對不對"},{"start":426,"end":451.786,"text":"是的对啊所以这个落差你还是要想办法这个同样都是银行人员是那这个部分因为涉及到整个国营事业的一个福利以及待遇的部分是由整个人总以及行政院那边来做统一规划然后原来我们的国营事业是可以到4.6个月但后来因为立法院的决议把它改成4.4个月这个部分我们也希望能够是不是可以给予"},{"start":452.086,"end":469.283,"text":"這個當然有些是我們行政院內部的整體那我是覺得說既然都是銀行的公股銀行的我們的從業人員那其實待遇真的是不要差太多那怎麼樣去做爭取部長也要幫他們爭取我們會積極的來跟行政院來做爭取"},{"start":474.148,"end":490.653,"text":"對啊那不要說這個好像就是案子送到行政院去然後好像沒有動靜了然後就一年一年這樣子我來這邊也兩年了金融事業的競爭也很激烈的對啊好那我現在就問到說大家也很關心關稅的問題那其實昨天有討論過"},{"start":494.035,"end":509.352,"text":"這個總共還有分兩個層次一個是2500億由企業自所投資這樣其實大家都知道說其實我們大企業這個大概扣掉這個台積電之外1650億其他的一些我們跟半導體相關的這些大的一些企業他們"},{"start":510.774,"end":524.205,"text":"因為台積電會過去投資他們也會再過去投資這是一部分那另外一部分就是屬於這個信用保證那這個信用保證我們昨天有提到說2500億那這2500億這個就是由國發基金這邊來統籌但是需要我們公股銀行這邊來做配合 對不對就國發會來做規劃做一個專案規劃然後國發基金出資以及公股銀行還有民營銀行一起來參與"},{"start":537.557,"end":559.852,"text":"好 那我問一下那我先問一下台銀好了林董事長因為這個企業都會大企業啦當然有些大企業他們自己不一定需要跟這個銀行來借錢但是有一些中小企業可能他要去美國投資需要跟銀行這邊來借錢那就你們來講的話就這一部分那個信用保證基金你們一般都是怎麼樣處理的"},{"start":562.03,"end":584.933,"text":"其實這個對中小企業的保證有一個是叫中小企業信保基金那這是針對規模比較小的中小型的企業那目前要規劃的這個國發基金規劃的這個就是國家融資保證機制這個是會針對比較大型的企業那如果看中小企業的規模如果他覺得中小信保足夠他運用的話他就可以來申請中小信保"},{"start":585.293,"end":606.758,"text":"那因為整個國保的機制目前還在規劃當中所以也不太知道說這個未來的費率還有這整個額度現在都還沒有定案那如果這些企業要去美國投資跟你台灣銀行借錢你會借給他們嗎有保證我們就會借有保證 你說有政府的保證就會借對對對好 那我請教一下這一個趙峰董董事長"},{"start":608.328,"end":632.459,"text":"那如果企業要去美國投資要跟你們借錢的話呢敢不敢借 可不肯借 要不要借我想還是回到5P的原則不管他去哪個國家投資我們還是要先看看他的風險情況他的5P我們審核過的話那當然我們就會借但如果說在這個屬於信用的有一個margin的話那當然就是說如果有保證那我們的借貸的意願會更高"},{"start":633.36,"end":653.039,"text":"這等於是國家來當這個靠山了國家由我們的國發基金它有當一個靠山然後就是擔心因為就像你講的就是說你們要考慮這麼多的因素在這種情況之下有一些企業可能不一定不一定有這個機會借到錢如果說有國發基金當靠山的話"},{"start":654.38,"end":677.785,"text":"他的情況還是這樣就是他不會是百分之百的不會是百分之百的這個信用保證如果百分之百信用保證的話他會有一個道德風險所以大概譬如說保個八成保個七成這樣子所以如果保七成保八成的話對銀行來講我們還是有風險的所以我們當然還是要回到5P原則來審查老實講這些要去美國投資的這些企業規模也不會太小"},{"start":679.079,"end":701.031,"text":"當然如果以現在所談的這些關稅的話應該都是大企業大企業基本上他們的財務狀況都不錯所以當然本來我們對他的信用對他的這個整個信心就比較高但是如果他的相對其他的一些供應鏈的話那當然我們還是必須要回到這裡基本上我們還是都會從5P的方式來所以其實如果你們借給這些大企業你們也能夠活力啊當然"},{"start":702.171,"end":718.756,"text":"所以我是希望說有關於這個信用保證未來跟公股銀行借錢的這部分我是希望能夠達到雙贏就是說讓企業有這個更多的資金去美國投資那也能夠讓你們銀行能夠賺錢信用保證是一個信用加強的機制"},{"start":720.117,"end":726.925,"text":"好OK好謝謝好謝謝主席謝謝我們部長還有所有的功夫洋董事長謝謝好謝謝李分審委員的質詢好部長請回接下來我們請黃珊珊委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167271","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167271","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d44bdc9dca737d57611b3bb87f1b5dc7ac551decc99d7f3b2581072cc072802035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:23:04 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宋署長你有拿過發票嗎有不用緊張有沒有拿過發票"},{"start":32.216,"end":57.457,"text":"我現在都用如果有雲端發票我都用APP那你最近拿到的發票是電子發票嗎都是雲端發票只要能刷的話我幫部長請教一下目前我根據你們資料啊114年度你們的租稅宣導活動有1230萬人參加這個數字看起來很大但是呢營業人只有不到1萬人9900募集了489張的發票給社會福利團體"},{"start":60.64,"end":80.192,"text":"好 你認為這不到500萬張的發票是多還是少你們在推動捐發票做愛心你們有在做嗎有 你有沒有聽過愛心碼有你有做過愛心碼嗎沒有 大部分沒有好 來你覺得不到500張捐給公益團體的發票占我們總體的發票多不多"},{"start":82.425,"end":109.827,"text":"因為捐發票這個動作基本上還是要其實捐紙本發票是給公益團體製造他們人工的支出捐電子發票很方便愛心多少就出去了因為你也沒用過我告訴你雲端發票110年度開了63億3100萬張結果我們目前公益團體收不到500萬張占比多少千分之0.8不到"},{"start":111.497,"end":136.934,"text":"請問一下署長你們有在來我用部長好了部長您覺得捐發票做愛心值不值得財政部去支持去推廣值得然後我們是會在那你覺得如果你要捐發票你會怎麼捐把那個紙本發票丟進去嗎你有沒有捐過那是紙本你有沒有捐過我沒有捐過發票你有沒有捐過你有沒有聽過愛心我也沒聽過你也沒聽過愛心可見了糟糕了"},{"start":141.178,"end":161.53,"text":"部長吃了誠實豆沙包啊他認為捐發票做愛心很好但是他沒有聽過愛心嘛他只知道資本發票然後呢 我們宋署長呢他都是拿電子發票但是他也不曾捐過愛心嘛好 我來告訴你來 我們看統一發票統一發票其實目的不是做愛心啦我要跟你講我沒有要你們不務正業來 看一下意思"},{"start":163.431,"end":186.483,"text":"當年任選群的時候 民國39年那時候弄了一個發貨票跟給獎暫行辦法 目的防止逃漏充實稅收39年首度實施收了2,900 隔了一年收到5,100有沒有效果 有效果所以這裡面有兩個部分 規定誰要使用發票而且要給獎對不對 你們給獎是定多少給獎是定幾% 定3%嘛 對不對"},{"start":191.445,"end":197.407,"text":"好那過去呢是大概187億你們實際大概置了168億我們看下一頁現在誰開的發票最多組長你們告訴我這些特別中獎的青車來自哪裡是不是都是連鎖店是不是都是連鎖店"},{"start":210.888,"end":229.576,"text":"為什麼因為連鎖店開的發票佔我們發出的發票九成以上所以你要大家再去營業人用發票其實大部分民眾拿到來對講的發票已經是連鎖店了連鎖店會逃漏不開發票嗎基本上不會所以說我們往下看"},{"start":235.249,"end":242.474,"text":"所以說過去你們的預算變了197億我請問你 多少是獎金 多少是宣導目前96%是獎金 96% 4%是宣導4%乘以不到200億大概多少錢 大概8000萬"},{"start":255.737,"end":272.117,"text":"8億啦 8億對不對你們8億要去做什麼做宣導嘛 是不是但是呢 其實大家關心的都什麼委員在關心什麼 小確幸關心的是拿獎金其實呢 有沒有獎金決定了消費者拿不拿發票"},{"start":272.958,"end":286.956,"text":"但是對於店家他要不要開發票其實差別有限是不是這樣子好我們來往下看所以說你們現在統一發票繼續給獎有沒有開發受援的效果有該裝的都裝了"},{"start":288.359,"end":306.853,"text":"對不對 你們該裝發票的都裝啦只是鼓勵民眾要繼續去拿我們沒有人敢說要廢掉同意發票來給人家獎金因為這是民眾的小確幸但是民眾還需要你去宣導拿發票嗎他不是因為你宣導去拿發票的他是因為有獎金他拿發票像我 我都捐愛心嘛"},{"start":307.782,"end":335.427,"text":"我也不在乎獎金但是你的宣導應該已經效果極致了其實統一發票現在的功能是什麼從變成增加稅收保時安是不是這樣子每次發現時安問題我們都是查什麼查營業人交易鏈的發票流向找到源頭嘛所以透過這個競銷項的沖底你們可以找到什麼找到一個物流跟金流的憑證是不是"},{"start":336.848,"end":352.81,"text":"所以部長來請你部長來其實統一發票不要小看它已經不是幫助我們國家徵稅收的方式它是確保我們這個社會的經濟活動運行物流跟金流有一個憑證幫助食安你同不同意"},{"start":353.894,"end":373.625,"text":"完全同意我們來看現在食安說什麼現在餐飲業務部說什麼說從業人員餐飲從業人員調理食品的時候首部不可以同時或接觸繼續接觸金錢你支持嗎你敢不敢去買個小吃攤他跟你要跟你找錢找了錢插一下再繼續煮你敢吃嗎所以你支持嘛對不對衛夫在這活動支持但是衛夫不敢用罰的啊罰的夜市攤會嘩嘩叫啊"},{"start":383.44,"end":409.182,"text":"財政部可以幫忙 你知道怎麼幫忙嗎 往下看其實去年我跟宋組長跟你這邊溝通很久我們先優先導入小規模營業人導入行動支付的優惠方法本來小規模營業人是1%如果說他月經營業額超過20萬照規定要同意發票 要增加很多的成本但是你們如果鼓勵這些餐飲同業呢他們用自助找營 自助收營 點餐系統"},{"start":410.143,"end":419.399,"text":"不用碰錢對不對用電子支付也好用時鈔也好所以呢這種情況之下你們維持他一趴的優惠換成你是小店家你會不會心動"},{"start":423.278,"end":440.087,"text":"對 一般小店家不願意承認我的營業額超過20萬超過20萬要變你們怎麼樣 要用統一發票嘛從401到405的報表 很麻煩 對不對所以你們給他1% 他可以到哪裡署長告訴我 他月經營業額是不是可以到80萬同樣是月經營業額 他過去只找20萬以下的1%"},{"start":447.199,"end":468.532,"text":"你現在鼓勵他說用這個方式他的實收營業額到八十萬以下的還是一趴你增加多少的稅收一趴變成二十萬變成八十萬增加四倍要不要鼓勵 部長要不要鼓勵這個才會有用啊部長請繼續 你現在好像很怕接近麥克風"},{"start":470.922,"end":498.851,"text":"所以我要跟你說的是說統一發票的宣傳跟給獎給獎絕對要保持但是宣傳呢你已經不需要去宣傳了該賺的店家都裝了現在這些小店家他維持1%在20萬月經營業額如果你讓他這個優惠他想反正我就用這個機器我的月經營業額在80萬以內我都還是1%他會願意這時候你的稅收增加了4倍你要不要去宣導"},{"start":501.03,"end":527.139,"text":"宣導我們是一直持續在說 你有多少錢宣導然後委員 你有多少錢宣導 多少錢我們剛剛講了啊 四億啊 四億對啊 好 四億齁 把四億拿出來好好的宣導 這樣才是增加稅收還有 你這樣幫助什麼幫助我們國民的食安幫助這些餐飲小店 他的調理人員 調理食物師前後不用再去碰觸金錢 你支不支持部長支不支持"},{"start":530.453,"end":545.863,"text":"委員非常支持這個部分然後我們財政部也訂了相關的一個機制這包含就是所謂用行動支付還有多媒體這個資訊服務的點餐因為這樣子所以我想謝謝委員好 我要告訴你說統一發票你現在大部分都是由連鎖業出來的了其實你要繼續宣導它的防逃漏 收效慎為但是呢如果這些原來不用統一發票的小店家你鼓勵他用這個自助收銀點餐機"},{"start":558.792,"end":582.334,"text":"它因為月經營業提高到80萬以上以下還可以維持1%它會採用所以是不是有助於稅收減輕負擔 有嘛所以最後我們希望你們知道嗎你們過去國稅局的宣導路跑活動有因為路跑活動去多拿發票的有沒有舉手看一看我有去參加路跑 我參加了三年"},{"start":584.332,"end":611.158,"text":"你們擺攤位送贈品啊我每次去參加園園優惠倒數三名的就是三個宣導第一 反我宣導第二 反詐騙宣導第三 租稅宣導因為大家覺得你們贈品都 瘦瘦其實你們要宣傳的是什麼幫助小店家使用你們的自助收銀然後點餐機讓他們享受80萬月均營業額以下一趴的優惠部長 知不支持"},{"start":612.423,"end":632.068,"text":"宣導除了路跑活動之外其實還有多元的方式以及去輔導你舉一個例子我來聽聽我經常在地方跟你們稅局配合你應該請你們賦稅署跟國稅局多多的開發多元你們跟傳統店家在鄉下告訴他們小店家用這個自助"},{"start":633.311,"end":653.369,"text":"收銀 點餐機讓老人用現鈔也可以用讓這些稅務代理人也去用甚至你們跟經濟部走啊經濟部在2018年推動了行動支付1%的優惠對不對那時候你們財政部有發宣導費嗎沒有通通都是經濟部你要不要我幫你跟經濟部請他們一起來宣導"},{"start":654.45,"end":671.319,"text":"我們一起宣導也可以你希望我去跟經濟部講嗎我們自己也可以聯絡你不希望我跟經濟部講那當然委員願意幫忙很好 我就照你的意思我一定下次質詢經濟部叫他們好好的來做宣導幫助我們的小店家幫助我們的國民食安好不好最後結論讓他複製更多對"},{"start":674.121,"end":689.526,"text":"然後你們4億的宣導費拿一下來用有效宣導 查訂 科證 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3年內我們看到從114年吧110年到113年總共是超增的2885億乘以3%等於86.6億之多那麼如果講一個平均是200塊錢的話就少掉4330萬個"},{"start":54.798,"end":60.401,"text":"給獎的機會我們4330萬個中獎的機會除以2300萬人口的話每一個人就少掉1.88次啦等於一個人台灣一個人不管他年紀100歲一直到剛出生的平均一個人少了兩次的中獎機會啊這個部長啊"},{"start":78.59,"end":98.695,"text":"你不能這個 我們要投資美國 送錢給美國這麼大方這個獎的部分 給老百姓的小確幸這樣子想辦法能扣就扣 你們是針對預算數算算那我為什麼不針對時增數呢 你告訴我原因到底在哪裡"},{"start":99.601,"end":113.932,"text":"跟委員報告我們產業投資美國不是送錢給美國我想這個第一個要澄清那第二個部分對於統一發票的給獎我們營業稅法我想在報告裡面說的很清楚以全年收入的3%來編列但是我們在編的時候因為並沒有當年度的時增數比如說以114年來說我在編的時候我按照預算案數"},{"start":123.679,"end":125.982,"text":"來編列如果說當年度的實徵數超過預算數的話那個部分也是歸屬到國庫裡面去而且有40%依照原來的財化法是40%是撥到地方的中央統籌分配稅款並不是全部進國庫那如果115年的話全部都到了地方政府去了你要不要補啊"},{"start":145.763,"end":167.474,"text":"那怎麼補因為第一個它是那一年114年消費的發票那我們就開講了那再補的話是對115年的發票它並不是同一個年度另外就是預算上的編列就是說下下年度嘛所以我就跟你講說要差兩個年度喔沒錯沒錯以後如果有超增稅收"},{"start":169.402,"end":172.585,"text":"應該在下下年度補列入預算金額可以嗎可以嗎 我就問你可以嗎跟委員報告現在營業稅都進到除了3%跟1.5%都到了地方政府那這個會減少地方政府的中央統籌分配稅款這會減少"},{"start":185.515,"end":199.322,"text":"地方政府不會有意見啦因為這給他保險的小缺席地方政府是不是沒有意見我們其實另外在預算法是不是可以做這樣的編列可能還要經過預算法主管機關再來重新看看為什麼不能夠編列你們編列那個獎金用預算跟時時分差這麼多"},{"start":203.456,"end":220.058,"text":"對不對 我跟你講喔這個 你們一樣你不然就給地方政府 不然就給老百姓我相信我相信地方政府一定money and happy說這筆錢有機會給老百姓因為出錢沒有多少錢啊"},{"start":221.159,"end":238.133,"text":"因為八十六一四年度一個年度二十億二十四個縣市 二十二個縣市一個縣市多少一億啊有什麼了不起114年是目前來說全國短徵288億那有短徵的話是不是要不要忘了我們的法律規定喔是營業稅3%提獎金提完獎金以後才給地方政府的你們犯規啊"},{"start":250.162,"end":250.563,"text":"法律規定就是先給"},{"start":257.194,"end":271.197,"text":"獎金分完以後才給地方政府你不要這個歐陵水痘啊不是不是 美威沒有錯在編預算的時候是這樣但是如果到下兩個年度要再抽出來抽出來嘛 所以我就跟你講下下年度嘛我就跟你講下下年度啊我都寫得沒有錯啊 兩年以後啊那就會減少了原來的要配給地方政府的錢因為還要從裡面抽一一把就要給人家啊對不對 副主計長有意見嗎"},{"start":290.228,"end":307.865,"text":"請那個蔡副好不好 這個可以編在下下年度嗎報告賴委員那因為這個是財政部主管的 我們尊重財政部的你說我主席叫你啊你 你叫我炒的財政部我跟他奇怪是啦 那按照那個"},{"start":310,"end":333.592,"text":"那個第58條規定喔58條規定很清楚是先給獎金以後再給地方政府嘛先後市區你不要不要把這個這個就推給地方政府啊先製造地方政府跟這個人民的矛盾啊總部長不好喔這樣不厚道喔委員您說在以後兩個年度要再加鞭喔那這個就是扣到原來的部分因為你原來當年度要3%"},{"start":334.773,"end":340.077,"text":"再加上以前年度超過的數字在這個以後的兩年度再來扣出來的話我不是不同意而是依照現行的運作的話多年來都是按照預算案數在編不管是少編也是一樣的如果短休也是一樣的"},{"start":354.426,"end":363.714,"text":"老百姓比縣市首長重要啦地方政府平均20億平均20幾個縣市平均一個縣市少1億可是這麼多的我們的普羅大眾這個幾千萬人年營業稅是短徵288億短徵就沒有了嘛短徵就沒有這個問題我說超徵就有這個問題啊"},{"start":377.807,"end":380.528,"text":"對 朝鮮你就兩年度以後補編嘛有這麼難嗎 對不對 這個錢要扣來 我們談到 哇 這個大家關心什麼台美關稅賴總統說趕快省 笑死人 八字只有一撇只有說我們出口去美國的啊美國來台灣的咧 農產品是不是零是不是零 請問是不是零"},{"start":401.717,"end":407.739,"text":"有關這個關稅的這個部分目前來說台美雙方還在檢視相關的文件啊這個都還在檢視文件等到簽署以後團隊會跟社會大眾報告"},{"start":421.342,"end":435.887,"text":"案子還沒有啊 還沒送啊那目前來說雙方在檢視相關的文件當中江賴總統這發什麼脾氣 還要罵在黑檔奇怪你都沒有送來只要審出口 進口都還沒有搞定這樣就要說 你們要審喔 你們怎麼可以不審案子都沒有來 為什麼叫我們審呢"},{"start":444.07,"end":447.512,"text":"對不對 不能這樣子隨便罵什麼時候談完你也不知道因為這是什麼經貿辦對不對 什麼時候送來立法院你也不知道 也沒有送來立法院簽署以後應該會很快的送進大院水裡面我們也希望盡快 對不對 但是呢我是呼籲賴總統要做功課啦賴總統幕僚要幫幫他啦賴總統沒關係 他叫什麼叫神"},{"start":473.031,"end":498.478,"text":"這個我現在跟你講這個只要送來立法院絕對很快的審這個關係到每一個這個沒有其他沒有second thought沒有第二個想法絕對審而且認真審很快審都不用擔心來我們再請教那個八大關股防空域董事長一起來好嗎好請各位董事長來一起來 部長你在哪裡"},{"start":504.875,"end":523.452,"text":"上一次來部長我們有說四大飯工股投信要合併那時候阮次主持的我記得第一金何苦造風華南財政部開會是由第一金來主導"},{"start":525.425,"end":548.083,"text":"結果後來華南歷組啊華南的鄰家大股東反對結果你們整個案子停擺了你們就停擺了我們來聽我講完我講完再講按照頭信的績效第一金排進去前100名的六檔合庫三檔招風一檔"},{"start":553.364,"end":578.911,"text":"華南的零Z6 說我最大聲他反對 華南反對你不知道要不要講一下話第一個我們這個會朝向這個投信來是合一來合併但就我所知他們都按照相關的進度在推進當中那也沒有華南因為怎麼樣而停擺目前都按期程在進行當中"},{"start":580.051,"end":600.516,"text":"我就收到人家給我簡體訊啊所以華南因為林家大股東他們負董事長不服董事長所以你們差一點把董事長換掉有沒有這回事啊把誰換掉把董事長換掉沒有啊董事長還在啊華南董事長還在啊陳董事長啊他的民股最大的股東是林家喔"},{"start":602.016,"end":623.541,"text":"所以你現在是最大股東喔這個四合一目前按照期程在推進當中所以還是第一金在主導因為你遠遠看第一金的規模是最大的還是在主導好 最後一個問題啦這個上一次來了說我們的2500億美金的投資美國的信保基金"},{"start":626.25,"end":648.083,"text":"我們的國發會說要第一年今年就要籌100億美金請問八大行庫是不是平均分攤有關這個信保基金的一個成立以及出資的部分目前是由國發會在規劃當中除了國發基金還有公股行庫之外也會邀請民營行庫一起來加入"},{"start":648.902,"end":661.255,"text":"不是 那你的我們的翻工股還會付多少錢那至於未來怎麼樣的一個出資的額度會另外做規劃我請教一個龍頭那個趙鳳京的董事長 董董事長"},{"start":662.659,"end":690.498,"text":"你有沒有接到國安會跟你諮詢說要你這個出資多少當作這個保證基金包委員現在還沒有這個出資的規劃都沒有出資規劃對 現在還沒有照細部的規劃我讓大家知道分年分期是可以的分年分期我讓大家知道國安會的副主委來這裡前幾天是說年底就要籌100億美金他講得這麼清楚而且主要就是八大飯工股 行庫"},{"start":692.425,"end":716.911,"text":"應該不是只有八大啦 我們可以先出資但是我們不會唯一出資 應該是所有民營銀行也要進來因為這個整個產業的融資是所有產業所有銀行業的事情不是只有八大關股在做這個融資最後我想講一個啦 其實我很不願意講這個啦台灣的股市很好 大家高興 沒有人不高興的啦但是台灣有嚴重的荷蘭病"},{"start":718.547,"end":736.834,"text":"股市你現在看多少支股票三分之一以上甚至一半以上都跌了都沒有漲啊指數漲都賺了指數賠了股價到底荷蘭幣晶片半導體產業好很讚的傳統產業慘兮兮啊你去看其他股票"},{"start":738.855,"end":762.585,"text":"這個儘管會主委還在想辦法怎麼樣平衡一下所以大家都了解然後沒有人摻摻台灣但是我們希望各個產業都受到照顧而不是只有晶片以及半導體發展這就是荷蘭病這是很不好的現象包委員實際上是政府各個部會都有提供相關的這些輔導措施針對中小企業以及其他可能的一些衰退產業好 謝謝賴司保委員"},{"start":767.659,"end":770.714,"text":"好 大家請回接下來請郭國文委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"17230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17230","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbd3a2b43aa665e407537598d5d9174bd6e692bdb9a1e4797732e85e386fdb778d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查：本院委員林宜瑾等22人、委員劉建國等16人、委員徐巧芯等17人、委員李坤城等22人、委員廖先翔等19人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等18人、委員郭昱晴等16人、委員林思銘等18人、委員洪孟楷等16人、蘇巧慧等17人、委員吳琪銘等17人、委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員張智倫等16人、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」、委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等21人、委員張宏陸等17人、委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」、委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第六條之二條文修正草案」、委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「動物保護法第三十二條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十三條條文修正草案」以及委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二及第三十三條之二條文修正草案」、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「動物保護法第三條及第五條條文修正草案」及本院委員邱若華等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二、第三十三條之二及第三十三條之三條文修正草案」。\n二、審查：行政院函請審議「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」以及委員張雅琳等16人、委員黃捷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」。(逐條審查)（請參閱開會通知單及議程） 【1月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-28","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-28T08:35:15+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-28T11:36:00+08:00","duration":10845,"影片長度":"03:00:45","委員發言時間":"08:35:15 - 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我們請組密報告初期人數報告委員會初期委員五人已足法定人數好 謝謝那我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議意思錄"},{"start":1501.055,"end":1520.92,"text":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第19次圈地委員會議示錄時間115年1月7日星期三9時至11時42分 地點紅樓101會議室主席委員邱盈瑩等13人 列席委員吳秉瑞等10人 列席人員農業部部長陳俊濟等主席陳昭吉委員亭飛 報告事項 宣讀上次會議示錄 決定 確定"},{"start":1523.381,"end":1543.184,"text":"討論事項 依審查本院委員陳廷飛等16人擬據農業科技園區設置管理條例增訂第15條之一條文修正草案討論事項 合併詢答農業部部長陳俊濟報告後 委員邱益穎等15人提出質詢經由農業部部長陳俊濟等即席答覆登記發言委員除不在場者外 區域經已發言完畢 詢答結束"},{"start":1543.664,"end":1563.257,"text":"委員林黛樺及陳昭明所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會委員立委要求期限者從期鎖定決議一 增訂第15條之一條文照委員陳亭飛等人所提修正動議通過二 本案審查完略你據審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商"},{"start":1566.159,"end":1591.895,"text":"並推請陳昭吉委員亭飛於院會討論時做補充說明2 審查本院委員李柏毅等16人擬據植物品種及種苗法第53條之一條文修正草案決議第53條之一條文定期繼續審查3 審查1本院委員陳亭飛等16人擬據農產品市場交易法第6條及第35條條文修正草案2 本院委員邱盈盈等20人擬據農產品市場交易法第15條條文修正草案"},{"start":1592.715,"end":1600.144,"text":"3.本院委員陳盈瑩等16人理據農產品市場交易法第10條條文修正草案決議1.第6條條文修正如下"},{"start":1601.598,"end":1628.073,"text":"第6條 農產品之交易不得壟斷 操縱價格或故意變更質量 謀取不正當利益或對市場交易秩序造成危害 任何人不得故意散播影響農產品交易價格 市場交易秩序之謠言或不實時訊息第10條條文修正通過 除第2項默據 其房屋稅及地價稅減半徵收修正為其房屋稅減半徵收外 須依照案通過第15條條文修正如下"},{"start":1629.229,"end":1657.491,"text":"第15條 農產品批發市場所需用之公有土地政府應優先出租依公告限值讓售會以其他合作方式提供所需用私有土地由直轄市縣市主管機關協助洽購依法申請徵收租用會以其他合作方式取得並得使用依法編定之農業用地前項租用會以其他合作方式取得之私有土地以國營事業土地為限且應經中央主管機關核准其使用期限不得少於20年"},{"start":1658.231,"end":1683.226,"text":"第一項用地應專攻農產品批發市場設置及經營使用非經燭管機關許可不得變更使用四 第三十五條條文照委員陳亭飛等人所提修正動議通過五 併案審查完略拟據審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商並推進陳昭及委員亭飛於院會討論時做補充說明主席先告 本次會議審查通過這條文相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1687.54,"end":1693.348,"text":"好 謝謝議事組人員宣讀上次的議事錄那我們現在繼續進行討論事項請一併宣讀"},{"start":1696.957,"end":1697.037,"text":"討論事項 繼續審查"},{"start":1721.102,"end":1746.65,"text":"二本院委員呂毅霖等16人委員張志文等16人委員葉元之等17人分別擬據動物保護法第10條條文修正草案等3案三本院委員呂毅霖等16人委員楊瓊英等21人委員張宏祿等17人委員郭益勤等16人分別擬據動物保護法第25條及第25條之1條文修正草案等4案四本院台灣民眾黨黨團委員葉元之等17人分別擬據動物保護法第25條之2條文修正草案等2案"},{"start":1747.51,"end":1764.022,"text":"5.本院委員林黛嬅等21人擬拒動物保護法第14條之一第14條之二及第30條條文修正草案6.本院委員鄭天才等16人擬拒動物保護法第2條及第10條條文修正草案7.本院委員陳廷飛等18人擬拒動物保護法第5條第20條及第25條條文修正草案"},{"start":1767.144,"end":1792.816,"text":"8.本院台灣民眾黨黨團拟據《動物保護法》第二條及第五條條文修正草案9.本院委員葉元之等17人委員郭益勤等21人分別拟據《動物保護法》增訂第14條之3條文草案等二案10.本院委員葉元之等17人委員吳佩儀等16人分別拟據《動物保護法》第25條條文修正草案等二案11.本院委員游皓等23人拟據《動物保護法》第25條之1條文修正草案12.本院委員吳佩儀等17人拟據"},{"start":1793.536,"end":1818.707,"text":"動物保護法第22條之4 調研修正草案13 本院委員賴瑞榮等17人拟據 動物保護法第2條及第6條之2 調研修正草案14 本院委員鄭前等19人拟據 動物保護法第32條 調研修正草案15 本院委員羅志強等16人拟據 動物保護法第23條 調研修正草案16 本院委員郭育晴等19人拟據 動物保護法第25條之2及第33條之2 調研修正草案"},{"start":1819.747,"end":1846.906,"text":"17 本院委員邱若驊等16人擬拒動務保護法第25條之二 第33條之二及第33條之三條文修正查案18 本院委員賴銳龍等16人擬拒動務保護法第3條及第5條條文修正查案2 審查1 行政行情審議本院委員張雅琳等16人 委員黃婕等16人分別擬拒動務保護法部分條文修正查案等3案2 本院委員魯明哲等16人擬拒動務保護法第25條條文修正查案案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1849.912,"end":1869.712,"text":"好 接下來我們首先介紹我們在場的委員以及列席的官員首先郭玉琴委員 謝謝好 接下來農業部部長陳俊濟部長我們林業及自然保育署我們的張副署長以及動物"},{"start":1872.169,"end":1890.244,"text":"動植物防疫警醫署我們的主祕林主祕謝謝漁業署林副署長以及環境部化學物質管理署盧副署長謝謝內政部警政署人事室代理主任劉主任謝謝"},{"start":1891.565,"end":1905.966,"text":"以及經濟部商業發展署簡組長謝謝法務部參事廖參事還有教育部資訊及科技教育師廖專門委員以及國家科學及"},{"start":1907.188,"end":1931.127,"text":"技術委員會的生命科學研究發展處的屠夫副處長還有衛福部心理健康師的洪專門委員來 數位部法治處的吳護處長 謝謝以及國家通訊傳播委員會專門委員蔡專門委員還有原住民委員會經濟發展處張副處長 謝謝"},{"start":1936.424,"end":1961.162,"text":"來 接下來本次議程我們審查動物保護法部分條文修正草案那麼已經在本會期12月31號進行逐條審查至第二條那經議決所有委員的提案與委員謝玉鳳委員陳昌明 委員林黛嬅委員蔡育宇等人所提修正動議及附帶決議一項均另定其繼續審查"},{"start":1963.183,"end":1983.837,"text":"那麼我們現在就請農業部長陳部長針對行政院以及新增委員新增委員包括這幾個包括劉明哲委員張雅玲委員黃婕委員所提的新增委員提案版本進行說明請陳俊俊部長"},{"start":1995.654,"end":2021.508,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那我想在上次審查的時候那時候行政院的版本並沒有進到我們的委員會那經過委員的要求我們也跟行政院溝通了我們也已經把我們動物保護法的行政院的版本都已經送到委員會來然後我們建議說這一次在審查的時候我們就逐條就針對委員的版本然後跟我們行政院的版本裡面看怎麼樣去一併來處理"},{"start":2024.997,"end":2039.44,"text":"好 那謝謝陳部長的說明也就是在我們上一次委員會開會的時候因為行政院院板還沒有進來那我們除了督促行政院必須要趕快送進來"},{"start":2040.481,"end":2054.573,"text":"至於也將也給你們兩個禮拜的時間將委員所提案因為條文非常的多那大家都非常的關心也有部分也有一些爭議的我們總之希望透過這個討論讓各方都能夠把"},{"start":2059.136,"end":2085.236,"text":"最佳的意见大家凝聚起来好好的充分讨论达到国人所需要的这个就是我们讨论的一个精髓所以我们也特别请行政院将委员所提案跟行政院的去做相互对照的一个比较出来所以待会我们主条在讨论的时候也可以好好的来做讨论好 谢谢"},{"start":2085.876,"end":2096.369,"text":"好 請回座那麼我們請議事組人員宣讀院會新增交付的四個提案版本所有的條文若有修正動議及互帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢之後再進行協商 請宣讀"},{"start":2100.874,"end":2120.393,"text":"公務保護法行政院提案第二條第一項手續修正為本法所稱主管機關在中央為農業部其與同線型條文第五條第一項墨具修正為以其法定代理人兼護人或實際照顧之人為四主第二項第五款第二具修正為其農內空間因足供寵物充分伸展及轉生"},{"start":2121.454,"end":2146.935,"text":"第七款修正為七不得以汽機車電動輔助自行車為行電動二輪車或其他以動力為主或為輔助慢車牽引寵物增訂第十款十不得為寵物佩戴電擊項圈現行條文第十款及第十一款一列至第十一款至第十二款第十一款著作文字修正增訂第四項依前項規定送交動物者應符合一定條件"},{"start":2147.435,"end":2170.598,"text":"其條件及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之會符合一定條件送交動物者視為棄養動物其餘同現行條文第12條D項第7款修正為其收容於動物收容處所或直轄市縣市主管機關指定之場所經獸醫師檢查有下列情形之一一患有法定動物傳染病二"},{"start":2171.138,"end":2182.595,"text":"生理状态已达无法自行进食饮水或排泄之程度三 严重影响动物或人员之健康安全现行条文第四项及第五项删除其余同现行条文"},{"start":2183.84,"end":2211.545,"text":"第十四條第二項據莫增訂收容動物經認養後原室主不得要求領回增訂第三項依前項規定通知後原室主無證當理由為依限領回者視為棄養動物第四項修正為依第二項規定准許領回認養之動物不得為第八條公告禁止飼養或輸入之動物但有下列情形之一者不在此限依原室主為公告前以飼養或輸入"},{"start":2212.785,"end":2240.518,"text":"并依第36条第一项办理登记者准许其领回二 认养人完成直辖市县市主管机关或其委托之个人机构或团体办理之训练并经评估具饲养能力者准许其认养现行条文第三项至第五项一列第五项至第七项第五项着作文字修正增订第八项第一项动物收容处所或直辖市县市主管机关指定之场所"},{"start":2241.078,"end":2259.733,"text":"中央主管机关应定期进行评鉴并公布评鉴结果其余同现行条文第十四条之二非经中央主管机关许可任何人不得制造贩卖陈列或输出入售夹及其他中央主管机关指定禁止使用与捕捉动物之物品"},{"start":2260.433,"end":2275.194,"text":"前項申請許可之要件程序期限應檢附資料不予許可廢止許可之條件禁止使用與捕捉動物物品之種類及其他應遵行事項之規則由中央主管機關定之第19條之一"},{"start":2277.25,"end":2299.43,"text":"中央主管機關得依寵物物種之生物學特性飼養照顧需求及公共安全考量分類寵物並採取分級管理措施前項分類方式與分級管理措施次組應具備之資格條件設施飼養照護方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第21條第一項手續修正為依第19條第一項規定應辦理登記之寵物"},{"start":2304.454,"end":2333.175,"text":"第二項修正為前項寵物有身份標示者應儘速通知飼主領回經通知超過七日未領回或無身份標示者依第十二條至第十四條規定處理第三項修正為第一項之寵物有法定動物傳染病或其他緊急狀況者得盡以人道方式宰殺之第四項修正為第一項寵物移飼時飼主應於移飼時發生之次日期五日內"},{"start":2334.036,"end":2347.506,"text":"像直轄市縣市主管機關申報借其為申報者除有正當理由外視為棄養動物其餘同現行條文第二十二條任何人未經許可不得販賣特定寵物經營特定寵物繁殖買賣或寄養業"},{"start":2349.963,"end":2366.537,"text":"以下并称特定宠物业应经职辖市县市主管机关许可并应于许可之营业场所内为之许可期间以三年为限前项特定宠物之种类特定宠物业者应具备之条件设施专任人员人员配置训练"},{"start":2367.188,"end":2391.374,"text":"申請許可之程序期限許可證之核發換發廢止許可之條件經營管理繁殖買賣作業及其他應遵行事項辦法由中央主管機關定之特定寵物業者以外之4組因自特定寵物出生獲取得後一定期限內為其絕育但4組提出繁殖計畫管理生"},{"start":2392.95,"end":2421.23,"text":"提出繁殖管理計畫申請經直轄市縣市主管機關許可者得於許可期限內免絕育其有繁殖需求應按次向直轄市縣市主管機關提出申請並經許可後使得為之直轄市縣市主管機關得要求前向經許可免絕育或繁殖之事主提供特定寵物繁殖後子代之飼養現況及受轉讓事主資料"},{"start":2421.93,"end":2438.16,"text":"受要求之事主不得拒绝第三项应为绝育之一定期限免绝育或繁殖需求之申请条件程序应检附文件许可期限废止许可之条件免绝育后之繁殖管理"},{"start":2438.76,"end":2463.328,"text":"前項應提供之資料及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之中華民國某年某月某日修正之第三項施行前已申報免絕育特定寵物之四主於修正施行後無需依該項規定申請許可免絕育其有繁殖需求者應"},{"start":2464.728,"end":2486.453,"text":"能因依第三項規定案次提出申請許可後 使得為之第二十二條之二 特定寵物之繁殖或買賣業者其特定寵物應有合法輸入之來源或有取得許可證之特定寵物繁殖或買賣業者供應之直轄市縣市主管機關得要求前項業者提供其特定寵物來源相關資料"},{"start":2488.22,"end":2511.202,"text":"业者不得规避妨碍或拒绝特定宠物繁殖或买卖业者其特定宠物应于完成晶片植入并办理宠物登记后 使得买卖或转让他人其晶片植入登记管理及其他应遵行事项之办法由中央主管机关定之特定宠物买卖交易或转让应于特定宠物交付前先完成宠物变更登记"},{"start":2512.243,"end":2537.574,"text":"並將登載寵物相關資訊之文件提供於購買者或收讓者特定寵物業者與電子平面電信網路及其他媒體進行廣告行銷宣傳時應標示其許可證字號非特定寵物業者不得擅自使用特定寵物業之許可證字號進行前向廣告行銷宣傳特定寵物業者不得將其許可證提供或租借他人使用"},{"start":2538.922,"end":2567.216,"text":"第23條 第一項及第二項著作文字修正增訂第三項直轄市縣市主管機關發現或受理涉違反第五條第二項或第六條規定於必要時得指派動物保護檢查員進入動物所在之公司場所進行稽查取締增訂第四項執行前二項稽查局取締之人員於執行職務時得請相關人員提供動物或其相關資料以供檢視"},{"start":2569.344,"end":2597.23,"text":"現行條文第三項一列第五項修正為對於第二項第三項稽查取締或依前項要求提供動物或其相關資料自主場所所有人使用人或管理人不得規避妨礙或拒絕現行條文第四項至第六項一列至第六項至第八項並著作文至修正第二三條之三直轄市縣市主管機關為阻止對於動物危害之發生或避免急迫危險"},{"start":2598.01,"end":2617.511,"text":"任有及時處置之必要時 得採取下列措施一 對於動物或物 得予以扣留使用 留置或限制其使用二 對於動物之生命 身體健康有迫切之危害非進入不能救護者 得進入第二三條第二項及第三項鎖定之場所"},{"start":2618.172,"end":2644.494,"text":"三 其他依法定職權所為之必要處置對於前項措施 措施相對人事主場所所有人 使用人或管理人不得規避 妨礙或拒絕直轄市縣市主管機關執行第一項措施時準用第23條第7項規定直轄市縣市主管機關執行第一項措施時措施相對人或利害關係人任有侵害其利益之情事得當場陳述理由"},{"start":2645.174,"end":2662.023,"text":"表示異議 其異議經直轄市縣市主管機關任由無理由者應立即停止或更正執行採取之措施認為無理由者得繼續執行經措施相對人或利害關係人請求時應將異議之理由製作記錄交付之"},{"start":2663.447,"end":2678.264,"text":"人民因直轄市縣市主管機關依法實施第一項措施致其生命身體或財產遭受特別損失時得請求補償但應可歸則於該人民之室友者不在此縣"},{"start":2679.085,"end":2698.991,"text":"行向损失补偿因以金钱为之并以补偿实际所受之特别损失为限对于直辖市县市主管机关所为损失补偿之决定不符者得依法提起诉议及行政诉讼损失补偿因于之有损失后二年内向执行机关请求之但自损"},{"start":2700.292,"end":2720.991,"text":"发生后经过五年者不得为之因执行第一项措施所需必要费用直辖市县市主管机关得以书面行政处分令动物之家害人负担第二四条直辖市或县市主管机关对于违反下列情势之一之机构学校应先通知限期改善或为必要之处置"},{"start":2722.406,"end":2746.401,"text":"一違反第十五條第一項第十七條或第十八條規定二違反第十六條第三項所定辦法中有關實驗動物照護及使用委員會或小組織任務或管理之規定第二十五條罰則修正為處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑並科新臺幣三十萬元以上三百萬元以下罰金第一款著作文字修正其餘同現行條文"},{"start":2747.099,"end":2772.102,"text":"第25條之一使用藥物槍械暴力或施以其他凝虐方式犯前條之罪致動物死亡且情節重大者加重其刑至二分之一有前條或前項所定行為之行為人所飼養之動物則暇視縣市主管機關得沒入之有前條情形經有罪判決確定者主管機關得公布其姓名照片及違法事實"},{"start":2773.82,"end":2793.207,"text":"第25條之二 續文第三具體修正為 依下略規定處罰並令其停止營業具不停止營業者按次處罰一 擅自經營特定寵物繁殖或買賣者處新台幣30萬元以上300萬元以下罰還 二 擅自經營特定寵物寄養者"},{"start":2794.247,"end":2814.951,"text":"處新臺幣5萬元以上25萬元以下罰還前項特定寵物繁殖或買賣場所內之特定寵物不問屬於何人所有之瑕是縣市主管機關得目錄之第25條之4主有下列情勢之一處新臺幣10萬元以上100萬元以下罰還1違反第5條第3項規定棄養動物2有第5條第4項後段第14條第3項或第21條第4項所定"},{"start":2824.072,"end":2851.357,"text":"視為棄養動物之情形第26條有下列情形之一者處新臺幣5萬元以上25萬元以下罰還一違反中央主管機關一第8條所為公告飼養輸出或輸入禁止飼養輸出或輸入之動物二違反第22條第一項規定未經許可擅自販賣特定寵物三違反第22條第三項規定未經直轄市縣市主管機關許可"},{"start":2852.117,"end":2878.445,"text":"免未特定寵物絕育而未為其絕育獲益許可免絕育期限能為未特定寵物絕育經限其改善藉其能為依第22條第三項規定辦理四 違反第22條第三項規定未經許可擅自繁殖特定寵物五 違反中央主管機關依第22條第5項鎖定辦法中有關免絕育後繁殖管理之規定"},{"start":2879.065,"end":2889.335,"text":"前項第一款禁止飼養輸出輸入之動物及第二款供販賣之特定寵物不問屬於何人所有直轄市縣市主管機關得募入之"},{"start":2890.857,"end":2918.448,"text":"違反第一項第三款至第五款規定之一而受處分者則瑕疵縣市主管機關因通知事主限期為其特定寵物絕育借期為辦理絕育者處薪台幣五萬元以上二十五萬元以下罰還並按次處罰第二十七條有下列情勢之一者處薪台幣五萬元以上二十五萬元以下罰還令其限期改善或立即停止並得公布其姓名或名稱照片及違法事實"},{"start":2919.528,"end":2945.1,"text":"禁令限期改善或立即停止藉其未改善或未停止者按次處罰依違反第六條之一第一項規定以動物進行展演限行條文第一款至第六款一列第二款至第七款其中第四五七款著作文字修正限行條文第九款一列第八款著作文字修正第十款一列第九款限行條文第二十六條第二項一列本條第二項其餘同限行條文"},{"start":2946.516,"end":2965.225,"text":"第28條有下列情勢之一者處心臺幣4萬元以上20萬元下罰還及廢止其許可並得公布其姓名或名稱照片及違法事實依特定寵物繁殖業者違反中央主管機關依第22條第二項鎖定辦法中有關寵物繁殖作業之規定"},{"start":2965.925,"end":2983.396,"text":"二 特定寵物繁殖或買賣業者違反第22條之二第一項規定其特定寵物未有合法輸入之來源或由未取得許可證之特定寵物繁殖場或買賣業者供應之三 特定寵物繁殖或買賣業者違反第22條之二第二項規定規避妨礙或拒絕"},{"start":2986.398,"end":3011.374,"text":"提供其特定宠物来源相关资料四 特定宠物繁殖或买卖业者违反第22条之二第三项规定未完成晶片植入或未办理宠物登记及进行买卖或转让他人五 特定宠物业者违反第22条之二第七项规定将许可证提供或租借他人使用特定宠物业者违反中央主管机关一第22条第二项锁定办法中"},{"start":3012.034,"end":3033.702,"text":"有关业者因具备之条件设施专任人员人员配置训练经营管理或买卖作业之规定或依第22条职二第三项所定办法中有关晶片植入登记管理之规定者处薪台币4万元上20万元下罚款并得限期改善经限期改善借其为改善者按次处罚"},{"start":3035.051,"end":3053.164,"text":"第29條第一項續文同現行條文現行條文第二款一列第一款增訂第二款二違反主管機關一第十四條之一第二項所為排除或拆除並銷毀之處置現行條文第四款一列第三款著作文自修正現行條文第五款一列第四款"},{"start":3053.724,"end":3070.952,"text":"五违反第22条之二第六项规定非特定宠物业者擅自使用特定宠物业之许可证字号进行广告行销六违反第22条之四第一项第三款规定制造加工分装批发贩卖输入"},{"start":3071.672,"end":3091.619,"text":"輸出贈與或意圖販賣而公開陳列欲有效日期之寵物食品7違反第22條之4第1項第4款規定製造加工分裝批發販賣輸入輸出贈與或意圖販賣而公開陳列未依規定標示標示不明或標示不全之寵物食品"},{"start":3092.939,"end":3116.954,"text":"金直辖市縣市主管機關通知縣企改善 借其為改善縣行條文第九款及第十款 一定第八款及第九款 並著作文字修正第十一款著作文字修正十二 違反第二十三條之三第二項規定 規避妨礙或拒絕直辖市縣市主管機關所採取之措施十三 違依直辖市縣市主管機關一第二十四條第一條規定"},{"start":3118.375,"end":3136.173,"text":"所為通知之期限內改善或為必要之處置十四 未依直轄市縣市主管機關依第24條第二款規定所為通知之限期以內改善或為必要之處置第二項修正援引款次其餘同線型條文"},{"start":3137.054,"end":3154.575,"text":"第30條第1項第1款修正原因款次第2款修正原因款次並著作文字修正第6款修正為違反中央主管機關1第13條第2項所定準則中有關宰殺動物之規定第8款以下修正為"},{"start":3156.314,"end":3176.665,"text":"八違反第十四條之二規定為金裝主管機關許可製造販賣陳列輸出入售甲及其他金裝主管機關指定禁止使用與捕捉動物之物品九違反中央主管機關一第十九條之一第二項鎖定辦法中有關分級管理措施自主應具備之資格條件"},{"start":3177.525,"end":3201.24,"text":"設施或飼養照護方式之規定使違反第22條之二第四項規定進行特定寵物買賣交易或轉讓時未完成寵物邊根登記即將特定寵物交付他人使依違反第22條之二第四項規定特定寵物繁殖或買賣業者於特定寵物買賣交易或轉讓時未提供購買者或收讓者有關寵物資訊之文件"},{"start":3203.081,"end":3221.212,"text":"十二違反第22條制二第五項規定特定寵物業者進行廣告行銷宣傳時未標示或標示錯誤之許可證四號經折轄市縣市主管機關通知限期改善 借期未改善第二項著作文字修正其餘同線型條文"},{"start":3221.932,"end":3251.164,"text":"第30條之一第一款修正為一是肆辱違反第五條第二項第一款至第十一款各款之一或第六條規定未達動物受傷狀況經限其改善 借其人為改善第二款所具修正為違反第五條第二項第一款至第十一款各款之一或第六條規定第三款修正為違反第22條第四項規定拒絕提供特定寵物繁殖後子代之飼養現況或受准讓"},{"start":3253.125,"end":3277.427,"text":"4組資料 經現期改善 借勤人為改善其餘同現行條文第32條 有下列情勢之一者所涉動物不問屬於何人所有直轄市或縣市主管機關得進行沒入依4組違反第5條第2項或第6條規定使其管理動物之生命或健康有受重大危害之餘現行條文第3款之第4款"},{"start":3278.228,"end":3299.976,"text":"一列第二款至第三款第二款著作文字修正四 違反第十條各款規定之一五 四組違反第十二條第一項第二項或第三項第一款規定六 四組違反第22條第三項規定未經許可擅自繁殖特定寵物七 有第25條之三各款鎖定情勢之一"},{"start":3300.666,"end":3315.126,"text":"第33條第一項序文著作文字修正第一款修正為依違反第5條第二項或第6條規定飼養照護不善或使其管理動物遭受騷擾虐待或傷害"},{"start":3316.588,"end":3344.377,"text":"現行條文第三款及第四款一列第二款及第三款現行條文第二項刪除其餘同現行條文第三十三條之一有下列情勢之一者直轄市縣市主管機關得令行為人不得飼養違規行為所設同物種之寵物或依第十九條第一項應辦理登記之寵物不得認養依第十四條第一項收容之動物或不許可其申請經營特定寵物業"},{"start":3346.124,"end":3365.36,"text":"一无正当理由将不拟继续饲养之动物送交动物收容处所或直辖市县市主管机关指定场所现行条文第三第四款一列第二及第三款第四款违反中央主管机关一第八条所为公告饲养输出或输入禁止饲养"},{"start":3366.381,"end":3381.697,"text":"輸出或輸入動物5 同是第10條各款鎖定行為之一第6款及第7款同現行條文8 由第25條之3各款鎖定情勢之一棄養動物現行條文第8款以列第9款"},{"start":3382.317,"end":3403.062,"text":"除前项第一款情事外其其余各款情事所为之处分这辖市县市主管机关应于依本法规定处罚时一并为之有第一项各款情事并禁止辖市县市主管机关依该项规定令其不得饲养宠物或不得认养动物"},{"start":3404.448,"end":3428.796,"text":"而在飼養寵物或認養動物者處新臺幣三千元以上一萬五千元以下罰款持霞市縣市主管機關並得目錄其在飼養之寵物或認養之動物線型條文第三項一列第四項著作文字修正其餘同線型條文第三十八條手續修正為主管機關依本法規定辦理植入晶片寵物登記發給寵物身份標示"},{"start":3433.361,"end":3444.575,"text":"第四十条本法处中华民国某年某月某日修正之第十九条之一第二十二条第三项至第六项第二十六条第一项至第"},{"start":3445.356,"end":3460.443,"text":"第26條第1項第3款至第5款與第3項第30條第1項第9款第30條之一第3款及第32條第6款施行日期由行政院定之外自公佈日施行"},{"start":3461.423,"end":3489.616,"text":"委員魯明哲等16人提案第25條有下列情勢之一者處3年以上5年以下有期徒刑或拘役並科新台幣50萬元以上300萬元以下罰金情節重大或再犯者加重其刑至二分之一第一款目據修正為致動物死亡重傷肢體嚴重殘缺或重要器官功能喪失第三款修正為以毒藥槍械火藥爆裂物"},{"start":3490.626,"end":3506.045,"text":"等方式 又藉由電子通訊網路影音直播 錄播散佈影像賭博或其他足以引發觀賞獲利或助長虐待動物之行為手段故意傷害或傷害動物者加重其刑二分之一其餘同現行條文"},{"start":3507.884,"end":3532.565,"text":"委員張雅琳等16人提案第二條同行政院提案第三條增訂第十四款十四衝突樂區指主管機關分析研究遊蕩動物與民眾衝突青老經濟動物攻擊野生動物等案件經科學研究程序確認據話涉後由主管機關公告之特定區域其餘同現行條文"},{"start":3533.366,"end":3561.131,"text":"第五條第三項修正為飼養之動物不得棄養但符合中央主管機關所定要件及程序者得送交動物收容處所或直轄市縣市主管機關指定之場所收容處理增訂第四項依前項但書規定送交動物未符中央主管機關公告之要件及程序者視為棄養動物增訂第五項第二項送交動物收容處所或"},{"start":3561.671,"end":3587.099,"text":"指定场所之要件程序及其他应遵行事项之办法由中央主管机关定之其余同现行条文第十四条增订第六项第一项动物收容处所或指定场所中央主管机关应定其进行评鉴并公布评鉴结果其余同现行条文第十四条之三主管机关所公告之冲突乐趣其公告内容应载明区域"},{"start":3588.199,"end":3608.847,"text":"範圍保護目標及管制等事項並於公告之衝突樂區內明顯處設置警示標示標誌提示區域內應遵守之相關限制前項區域未經主管機關許可任何人不得有下列行為一餵食遊蕩動物二置放公遊蕩動物或野生動物"},{"start":3609.167,"end":3636.302,"text":"取食之飼料或設置餵食器具三 以其他方式誘引遊蕩動物第十九條第二項莫具修正為並因植入晶片或以其他可辨識之方式進行標示增訂第四項飼主飼養依本條規定辦理登記之寵物遺失時因於遺失事實發生後五日內向直轄市縣市主管機關登記無正當理由未辦理登記推定為棄養"},{"start":3638.177,"end":3664.956,"text":"其余同现行条文第十九条之一第二项修正为前项分类方式及分级管理措施自主应具备之资格条件饲养照护方式设施及其他应遵行事项之办法由中央主管机关定之其余同行政院提案第二十二条第一项手续修正为任何人不得贩卖中央主管机关指定种类之宠物以下简称特定宠物"},{"start":3665.757,"end":3686.722,"text":"倒數第三具起修正為得經營特定寵物之繁殖買賣或寄養業並應於許可之營業場所內為之許可期間以三年為限第二項修正為前項特定寵物之種類繁殖場買賣或寄養業者應具備之條件設施專任能源"},{"start":3687.302,"end":3715.672,"text":"人员配置申请许可之程序期限与换证撤销或废止许可之条件经营管理繁殖及买卖业者应遵循之宠物登记管理宠物繁殖买卖作业及其他应遵行事项之办法由中央主管机关定之第三项倒数第二具修正为植入晶片或以其他可辨识之方式进行标识办理宠物登记删除现行条文第五项其余同现行条文"},{"start":3716.96,"end":3736.019,"text":"第22条之二经营第22条特定宠物之繁殖或买卖业者其宠物应有合法输入之来源或有取得许可证之特定宠物繁殖场或宠物买卖业者供应之特定宠物繁殖或买卖业者其特定宠物应于完成晶片植入或完成"},{"start":3737,"end":3751.14,"text":"其他可辨識方式之標示並辦理寵物登記後使得買賣或轉讓他人特定寵物買賣交易或轉讓應於特定寵物交付前先行完成寵物變更登記並將備有登載寵物相關資訊之文件"},{"start":3754.304,"end":3778.518,"text":"并提供于购买者或收让者现行条文第三项一列第四项第二十七条删除现行条文第七款现行条文第八款至第十款一列第七款至第九款其余同现行条文第二十八条有下列情事之一者处新台币四万元以上二十万元以下罚还即令其现期改善外并得公布其姓名名称或照片"},{"start":3779.258,"end":3806.058,"text":"借其不改善者得按次处罚经处罚三次者被指其许可一 特定宠物繁殖业者违反中央主管机关一第22条第二项锁定办法中有关宠物繁殖作业之规定二 宠物买卖业者违反第22条之二第一项规定其特定宠物来源未有合法输入之来源或未取得许可证之特定宠物繁殖场或宠物买卖业者供应"},{"start":3806.678,"end":3818.602,"text":"或未完成晶片植入及進行買賣轉讓他人三 特定寵物繁殖或買賣業者違反第22條職二第二項規定未完成晶片植入或未辦理寵物登記及進行買賣或轉讓他人"},{"start":3821.653,"end":3835.305,"text":"特定寵物業者違反中央主管機關一第22條第二項鎖定辦法中有關業者應具備之條件設施專任人員人員配置經營管理繁殖或買賣業者應遵循之寵物登記管理或買賣作業之規定"},{"start":3837.467,"end":3857.361,"text":"处信台币4万元以上20万元以下罚还并得限期改善经限期改善借其未改善者得按次处罚之第30条增订第9款就违反中央主管机关1第19条之1第二项锁定办法中之分级管理措施或有关事主应具备之资格条件适应"},{"start":3858.041,"end":3880.051,"text":"照顾方式设施及其他应遵行事项之规定现行条文第九款一列第十款并着作文字修正增订第十一款十一违反第二十二条之二第三项规定进行特定宠物买卖交易或转让时未完成宠物变更登记即将特定宠物交付他人现行条文第十款一列第十二款其余同现行条文"},{"start":3880.771,"end":3901.794,"text":"第30條之一 增訂第三款三 違反第14條之三第二項規定之禁止行為現行條文第三款已列第四款其餘同現行條文第31條第一項續文罰還修正為處心台幣3000元以上3萬元以下罰還其餘同現行條文委員黃婕等16人提案"},{"start":3903.53,"end":3921.939,"text":"第四條之一手續修正為各級政府應普及動物倫理視乎責任遊蕩動物管理與動物保護法規相關之教育及學習其餘同線型條文第五條第二項第七款修正為其不得以動力交通工具牽引寵物增訂第四項"},{"start":3923.32,"end":3939.917,"text":"長期持續提供遊蕩動物食物或飲水者視為實際管理之人但受直轄市縣市主管機關委託執行動物保護工作者或依第21條第一項規定縱交動物收容處所或直轄市縣市主管機關指定之場所"},{"start":3940.658,"end":3969.396,"text":"与运送过程提供游荡动物食物或饮水以维持其生理机能者不在此限其余同现行条文第七条之一肆主因防止其所饲养动物遭老及伤害野生动物第十四条增订第六项对于第一项捕捉收容及处理游荡动物任何人不得规避妨害或拒绝其余同现行条文第十九条之一中央主管机关因依宠物物种之生物学特性"},{"start":3970.456,"end":3988.254,"text":"動物福利及公共安全分類寵物飼主飼養或販賣之寵物屬中央主管機關指定應申請許可或登記被查之物種應向直轄市縣市主管機關提出申請經許可或同意登記後 使得為之第一項寵物分類前項飼主飼養或販賣寵物應具備之資格條件"},{"start":3992.297,"end":4018.512,"text":"飼養照護或販賣方式飼養設施因申報資訊申請許可或登記被查之程序期限或與患證撤銷或廢止許可或登記之條件及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之一第三項鎖定辦法施行前飼主與飼養第二項鎖定應申請許可或登記被查之寵物者應至中央主管機關指定之網站"},{"start":4019.847,"end":4038.306,"text":"自行申报所似宠物物种性别及数量等资讯第二十条第一项修正为宠物出入公共场所或公众得出入之场所应由七岁以上之人伴同并使用恋神相容或采取其他精装主管机关公告之"},{"start":4042.29,"end":4065.383,"text":"適當防護措施但符合下列規定之一者不在此限一中央主管機關一物種管理需求公告之條件二之瑕疵縣市主管機關公告之區域或條件其餘同現行條文第22條之四增訂第一項第五款及第六款五變質參委或假冒六其他經公告不得使用之成分第二項修正為前項病原為生物之種類"},{"start":4066.664,"end":4074.949,"text":"有害寵物健康物質之種類與其安全容許量及不得使用成分之標準由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":4076.365,"end":4099.029,"text":"其余同现行条文第23条之二首具修正为宠物食品经检查或检验确认参为假冒含有或超过1第22条之4第2项所定标准中有关病原为生物种类不得使用成分或有害宠物健康物质安全容许量者其余同现行条文第27条第9款末具修正为"},{"start":4099.629,"end":4125.711,"text":"第二款或第六款情形之一之寵物食品其餘同現行條文第二十七條之一手續修正為散布播送或販賣違反第六條第七條之一第十條或第十二條第一項之文字圖畫聲音影像電磁記錄或其他物品其餘同現行條文第二十九條增訂第一項第三款及第四款三違反第七條之一規定飼乳未能防止其所飼養動物"},{"start":4128.052,"end":4150.64,"text":"騷擾及傷害野生動物至野生動物死亡者次違反第十四條第六項規定規避妨害或拒絕直轄市縣市政府及受委託機構團體依法執行捕捉收容處理遊蕩動物現行條文第一項第三款至第十一款一列第五款至第十三款第二項款次著作文字修正其餘同現行條文"},{"start":4151.68,"end":4169.561,"text":"第三十條增訂第一項第三款三違反第七條之一規定飼主未能防止其所飼養動物騷擾及傷害野生動物至野生動物受傷者現行條文第三款至第十款一列第四款至第十一款第二項款"},{"start":4170.347,"end":4196.208,"text":"次著作修正其余同现行条文第三十一条第一项第九款修正为就违反第二十条第一项规定是宠物无七岁以上人伴同或未使用链绳相容或采取其他经中央主管机关公告之适当防护措施者但符合同项但书规定者不适用之其余同现行条文第三十二条有下列情事之一者则辖市县市主管机关得进行没入"},{"start":4197.009,"end":4218.897,"text":"四組是動物或令四組改善未改善者進行沒入其動物第四款修正委四違反第七條規定無故侵害他人之自由或財產是造成他人自由或財產受損之動物增訂第五款五違反第七條之一規定四組未能防止其所飼養動物"},{"start":4221.139,"end":4228.967,"text":"騷擾及傷害野生動物 導致受傷或死亡者 現行條文第一項第五款 以列第六款其餘同現行條文宣讀完畢"},{"start":4233.905,"end":4260.322,"text":"好 那各位同仁剛剛宣讀的意思錄有沒有問題好 那我們意思錄確認來 接下來我們現在協商動物保護法部分條文修正草案總共有42個提案版本委員所提的修正動議以及附帶決議並同審查那麼本次會議新增的4個提案將與上次會議38案並按審查"},{"start":4262.984,"end":4277.319,"text":"前次會議審查第一條及第二條決議皆保留由於上次會議本席要求農業部針對各個委員提案提出建議的修正條文故本次會議我們繼續從第一條進行審查請農業部先做說明"},{"start":4295.43,"end":4319.279,"text":"主席各位委員大家好 那有關於第一條的部分那郭育群委員 羅廷威委員跟蘇曉慧委員在提案的時候有納入有關於動物為具感知能力的生命然後飼養應符合動物需求及人與動物共生的一個概念那基本上在我們的院版裡面並沒有做修正但是經過我們農業部"},{"start":4321.099,"end":4336.626,"text":"依據上次主席的一個決議我們做了內部的一個討論覺得說委員這樣子一個概念是可以適度的納入條文裡面那條文裡面的修正我們就是修正的文字我想你們"},{"start":4338.667,"end":4363.4,"text":"現在就發啦 給我們好不好第一條的部分就是動物為具感知能力之生命為尊重動物 主席是不是請那個農業部是不是先把資料給我們好不好 第一條的文字給我們好不好 給我們看一下好 請農業部將你們所提建議的條文文字請送交給我們各位委員"},{"start":4363.902,"end":4387.182,"text":"好 那第一條 動物為具感知能力之生命為尊重動物生命及保護動物增進動物福利促進負責任且符合動物需求之飼養文化培養國民尊重生命之意識從而促進人類與動物和諧共存特制定本法"},{"start":4389.392,"end":4401.664,"text":"動物之保護依本法之規定但其他法律有特別規定者適用其他法律之規定好來請來 關於請委員"},{"start":4404.845,"end":4426.22,"text":"這個上次其實我已經有講過了基於現在其實大家在飼養寵物的多樣性就是還包含不是只有毛小孩而已就是還有多許多的這個所謂的異寵那在飼養的同時其實我們也希望能夠符合他原本的這個生存的這樣子的一個樣態所以我特別把這個所謂的維持原期地自然樣態的原則"},{"start":4427.44,"end":4453.5,"text":"然後寫進去那但是我們看到現在已經農業部有一個修正的這個版本其實有看到所謂要符合這個動物需求的飼養文化我想這個部分我也不堅持那我覺得這樣子有有有修改因為這個是一個最重要的保護動物的一個概念那我想已經有把它那尤其是第一條其實是也很重要那我想這已經有把這個部分寫進去那我個人沒有意見好以上"},{"start":4454.356,"end":4478.448,"text":"謝謝委員 來 六元委員好 謝謝 如果大家委員們是有共識的話那我建議是不是這個就照院版的修正文字來通過了好不好這不是院版 照部長提出來的 照部裡面提出來的修正文字來通過這不是院版 好 謝謝好 來 針對於第一條的部分那也經過上一次會議 我們決議請"},{"start":4481.824,"end":4486.392,"text":"農業部針對委員所提出的條文去做討論"},{"start":4488.715,"end":4517.953,"text":"跟提出建議條文文字內容那麼請教各位委員針對剛剛有這個委員所提出以及農業部所提出那這個條文第一條依據剛剛農業部所作出的文字在各位委員手上都有第一條的文字內容請教各位有沒有其他要發表意見"},{"start":4523.163,"end":4538.528,"text":"對沒有這不是不版因為不版沒有第一條的修正是我們上次的決議請農業部針對於所有委員的提案做文字提出農業部的文字請到各位"},{"start":4539.707,"end":4555.744,"text":"好各位同仁針對於第一條上次我們是做保留那現在終於在兩個禮拜後由農業部也提出文字那請教剛剛農業部所提的文字有沒有意見"},{"start":4558.442,"end":4578.717,"text":"好 如果沒有意見 第一條動物為具感知能力之生命為尊重動物生命及保護動物增進動物福利促進負責任且符合動物需求之飼養文化培養國民尊重生命之意識從而促進"},{"start":4579.938,"end":4599.953,"text":"人類與動物和諧共存特制定本法動物之保護依本法之規定但其他法律有特別之規定者適用其他法律之規定好 照這樣的文字第一條通過 請教各位有沒有意見沒有 我們第一條修正通過 謝謝繼續第二條"},{"start":4603.837,"end":4630.516,"text":"有關第2條的部分那包括行政院版跟多數委員提出的修正是將中央主管機關由原來的農業改為由原來的農委會改為農業部那文字都與行政院版本一致那另外蘇巧慧委員所提到的在這個條文裡面又多設了一個設置動物保護警察的部分那因為試射內政部警政署人力配置的"},{"start":4631.617,"end":4657.822,"text":"我想我們除了尊重內政部的意見以外我們建議就是與中央及地方設置動物保護官那上次我想我們在討論的時候有提到了那因為動物保護官的部分在後續的條文會出現所以我們建議說那個蘇曉鳳委員的這個版本裡面寫設置動物保護警察的部分我們就不納入就是還是維持大部分的委員的意見只修正行政院農業委員會改為農業部"},{"start":4663.744,"end":4682.172,"text":"關心你 你還沒 還沒 現在在討論還沒有 還沒有 來 那個說明完了嗎好 來 賴榮榮委員 再來郭玉琴委員這個因為剛剛農業部也有做了說明包括動物保護警察 後面會做一些那個 那是不是這個部分我也建議是不是就照行政院版跟各委員的版本來通過 謝謝"},{"start":4684.809,"end":4706.898,"text":"因為之前其實已經有特別提到就是動物警察的這個這個這個倡議已經很久了啦但是我相信農業部應該之前也有正面的一個肯定就是說我們要賦予這個各地方的這個凍檢員要更多的一些執法權利那另外還有動物保護案會放在後面那我想這個部分也就同意這個就是部會這邊"},{"start":4708.298,"end":4730.407,"text":"就是把這個部分我們往後在後面的這個條文再來審那個行政部門給他說明喔你放在後面哪裡啊他就放在後面嘛我第一個跟委員先做說明就是就是上次在委員會討論這個動物警察的議題的時候那我們有提到幾個重點第一個重點就是如果設置動物"},{"start":4731.367,"end":4745.843,"text":"動物保護的警察的時候那因為內政部裡面的警察有可能有不同的類別那會造成後續有不同的樣態就會設置不同的動物警察那我們尊重內政部的意見但是因為動物保護本身"},{"start":4746.343,"end":4766.86,"text":"是一個非常重要的議題特別是一個虐待的部分必須要有人去處理所以我們在法裡面用兩個方式來取代那個動保警察第一個部分就是動檢員賦予他的權利讓他有一些權利能夠進到就是民宅裡面第二個部分就是我們設置動保關那動保關的時候萬一"},{"start":4768.941,"end":4792.84,"text":"來做相關的一個協調那在中央會設動保官在地方政府縣市政府也會設動保官所以透過這兩個作為來取代現行的委員提議的動保警察但是實務上我想很多動檢員去做查處的查訪的時候我相信一般的警察也會轄區的警察也會隨同那這樣的話大概可以完成整個的需要"},{"start":4793.641,"end":4819.595,"text":"然後後面的動保關的部分是在23條裡面有做一些處理再來我們請謝鳳委員這個部分其實原則上我們在上一次討論的時候我們都希望說能賦予動物保護的公務人員更高的執行力跟公權力那但是"},{"start":4820.535,"end":4843.274,"text":"就是說因為很多的委員同仁他們還是非常堅持動保警察這個部分所以這個部分是不是也還沒有共識是不是我們這一條是怎麼樣請主席解釋一下好 謝謝還是看保留還是怎麼樣好還是來 周映委員 謝謝"},{"start":4847.565,"end":4866.296,"text":"好 謝謝 我剛本來是要請教那個動保關的設置那剛剛部長有補充說明是在第23條好 另外我要請教那如果是這樣子蘇巧慧委員的這個版本是不是後面我們就是把動保警察那個部分把它刪除掉是這樣對"},{"start":4885.4,"end":4897.089,"text":"這個部分在剛剛邱議員委員還有委員提案就是東堡警察上一次我們在委員會的時候有充分在討論那你們提出的你們的話是在23條23條我們還沒審查到接下來我們請李君以為"},{"start":4901.152,"end":4926.26,"text":"理工長委員謝謝主席那其實大家是比較注意的就是說例如是動保檢查或是說這個動保員的動物保護檢查員的調查的權限然後剛剛聽部長提到說一個動保官那我覺得就在後面23條再來討論那第二條就是其實就跟現行的這一個條文是一樣的對不對"},{"start":4928.917,"end":4934.789,"text":"就改農業部嘛對啊那剩下的我覺得就到23條那邊再來討論啦不然卡在這邊就進不了了我是不是來"},{"start":4940.686,"end":4960.03,"text":"我是不是可以說明一下就是因為第二條最主要是目的那個是主管機關的部分嘛那改成農業部那剛才委員所關心的動保警察或者是動保檢察員或是動保官的部分在23條裡面會去處理因為蘇喬惠委員在這邊就寫了一個就是要設這個東西那如果後續討論的話在23條可以一併來討論因為這條是主管機關"},{"start":4967.627,"end":4983.009,"text":"主席我建議因為第二條主要是談的是主管機關就是中央的是改成農業部嘛地方的是直轄市那我建議就讓它單純化法制上單純化那至於後面要處理這些的到23條再一起來討論這樣體制上比較完整一點好 謝謝來 還沒請大家要說明"},{"start":4984.656,"end":5001.885,"text":"那個第二條的部分因為上一次在委員會充分討論其實動物警察的這個議題大家的目的就是要怎麼樣可以執行到位可以保護動物這個是大家的目的但是他因為又卡到"},{"start":5003.646,"end":5023.321,"text":"最後這個農業部提到23條我們現在不知道23條的樣態是怎麼樣所以因為我們的條文非常的多那是不是農學主席來這邊第二條也暫保留到23條的時候我們一併討論這樣好不好這樣比較完整好 謝謝來 第三條"},{"start":5024.994,"end":5047.064,"text":"好有關於第三條的部分是用時的定義的部分那用時的定義的部分在行政院院版我們所提出來是並沒有修正但是也遵照委員說要去檢視所有委員的版本那是不是找到一個可以把它新增定義的部分那我們在這邊做幾個說明第一個說明就是"},{"start":5048.044,"end":5062.841,"text":"那個蘇曉慧委員還有郭益勤委員及張雅玲委員所提的修正案裡面的定義他把動物的定義擴及到非脊椎動物的部分那現在所有的動保動保的這些定義都是跟脊椎動物有關的"},{"start":5063.502,"end":5082.77,"text":"那如果擴成非脊椎動物的話整個整個法的一個保護的目標就會擴大那擴大的話會影響到整個後續的所有的動保的一些條文的一個調整所以我想這個部分可能也需要再更多的一個溝通要不要把這個軟體動物的部分納進來這個我想"},{"start":5085.452,"end":5109.268,"text":"這個第一個就是我們希望說還有更多的機會能夠溝通那第二個部分就是蘇曉慧委員跟詹雅琳委員所提的修正的定義裡面他限定本部公告或許可的動物裡面有所謂的白名單的部分那現在目前因為我們的整個寵物已經趨於多元化的一個管理那相對的這個白名單就未來可能"},{"start":5110.068,"end":5136.033,"text":"就比較會難產出來那後續我想我們農業部會以分類分級的管理制度來取代白名單那這個分類分級的這個制度裡面會在第19條之一裡面院門19條之一裡面去處理那同樣的分類分級的管理其實跟白名單其實是不同的思維但是同一個目標我們是建議這樣子那第三個部分是蔡議員所提的"},{"start":5137.313,"end":5165.722,"text":"飼養定義裡面包括定時定點餵食之人那我們建議因為餵養的這個部分相對的他後面可能在第4條還是第4條會討論到那我們是建議先不要納入因為整個的一個餵食遊蕩動物者如果是你是飼主的時候這牽涉到飼主的定義那另外我們覺得可以放進去的就是修正虐待的定義"},{"start":5167.002,"end":5194.675,"text":"那虐待的定义基本上我们就是只除饲养管理或处置目的之必须行为外以暴力不当使用药品器物或其他作为不作为方式致伤害动物使其无法维持正常生理状态之行为我们觉得虐待这个东西是可以把它更明确地放到定义里面去做一个定义那另外"},{"start":5195.555,"end":5223.075,"text":"有賴瑞榮委員所提案的就是新增寵物用品的定義那這個定義是牽涉到整個產業面的管理那在這段時間也有非常多的產業的管理也希望說針對用品的定義那一旦有明確的定義的時候那會牽涉到後續的產業的買賣的一個行為所以也需要有更多的時間來溝通跟討論所以我們也不建議放進去那另外"},{"start":5223.835,"end":5247.878,"text":"有台灣民眾黨團提案的嚴重就是有關於新增動物安養長期照顧的定義啦那這樣子的話就是如果說我們訂了一個長期照顧的一個定義的時候就會影響到整個遊蕩犬收容及族群的管理的業務的執行那我們也覺得這個議題很重要但是也需要更周延的溝通跟討論"},{"start":5249.199,"end":5272.776,"text":"那另外还有张亚林委员提案的部分就是有关于新增冲突热区的定义那因为冲突的热区本身现在目前我们有一些生态热区跟野生动物的这些热区的部分那有关于冲突的热区它需要有更多的科学的根据跟调查才能够去化设而且这个化设本身"},{"start":5273.796,"end":5286.83,"text":"有它的一個跟其他的這些化射區域的重疊的部分那相對的部分我想我們也不建議在這一次就直接納入直接納入所以那"},{"start":5290.886,"end":5303.212,"text":"大概是這樣子所以總結就是說在這個定義裡面我們採納了虐待這個這個名詞的定義那名詞的定義裡面的版本已經有給各位委員那請各位委員參考以上"},{"start":5304.844,"end":5316.222,"text":"好 針對農業部提出說明來 請教高委員來郭益勤委員再來雅玲委員 謝謝再來蔡議員針對這第三條我是在動物的這個"},{"start":5320.572,"end":5343.115,"text":"定義就是被保護的這個對象我有特別納入這個非脊椎動物的一個部分但是我想這個可能考慮到就是整個整體可能還需要再再更應該是說更具體的一個周延的一個方向那這個部分就就是參考那另外就是在虐待的這個虐待的樣態"},{"start":5345.46,"end":5368.231,"text":"我包含就是對於所謂的這個動物生理或者是心理造成一些恐懼那另外我還有特別就是希望以這個不作為所謂的不作為就可能是事主放任他傷病不理或者是不給飲水或不給食物這個部分我是想說這個事主如果是不作為的這個部分是不是也可以拿進去在我的這個版本主要是針對這兩條好以上"},{"start":5370.732,"end":5394.746,"text":"好 謝謝 接下來張雅琳委員好 謝謝主席 那首先我還是感謝農業部就是因為我的第9條的虐待裡面我也有提到就是因作為或不作為 致動物遭受不必要之痛苦那這個部分要感謝這個農業部有採納我的版本那再來就是說在衝突樂趣的地方最主要是因為我們現在的其實在農業部現在本來就有這個1959動物保護通報統計"},{"start":5398.863,"end":5427.408,"text":"那每一年大概有200件遊蕩犬造成農損的一個案例那交通部也有統計每年大概有3000件因為撞擊動物而導致人員傷亡的一個事故那這些都其實已經造成了所謂的公共安全的一個議題那所以呢我自己有看到就是說農業部在2023年也推動了遊蕩犬管理精進措施計畫現在其實已經有分生態樂區人犬衝突樂區然後當然還有觀光的部分都有去分"},{"start":5428.925,"end":5450.073,"text":"然後在這些樂區裡面會進行積極的捕捉不回制然後也會有敬畏的宣導所以呢我這次的提案重點其實就是把我們現在已經在執行的政策措施提升到法律的層級啦讓樂區的畫社管理與執法有更明確的一個法源依據那"},{"start":5450.493,"end":5472.288,"text":"我是想就是說雖然他過去我們有相關的計畫但是大家會擔心的就是說因為像這樣子的衝突民間的衝突已經一直不停的在發生那我是希望他可以進入這個法條裡面讓他變成是一個有一個責任上面我們應該要定期的去做這件事情因為計畫畢竟有可能會隨時終止所以還是希望可以入法 謝謝"},{"start":5474.352,"end":5488.667,"text":"接下來邱議員委員蔡議員委員謝謝蔡議員委員好謝謝召委那我的提案好像還沒有被排進來因為還在還在復議期間"},{"start":5491.431,"end":5519.626,"text":"那我的提案主要是針對第三條那針對所謂這一個市主包括市主的定義裡面有實質管理那我再增加一個定時 定點 位時那為什麼我會提出這樣的一個法案呢基本上我們知道說因為現在流浪犬存在是一個事實那我們也當然覺得流浪犬要怎麼做好源頭管制很重要"},{"start":5520.326,"end":5540.342,"text":"大家目的都是不希望犬隻、貓隻在外面流蕩然後事實上牠們的生命權也是應該要顧但是呢確實是有一些流浪犬牠可能會涉及到、攻擊到會攻擊像騎腳踏車的老人或者是牠在校園的一個環境裡面牠們可能會在遊憩場所"},{"start":5541.423,"end":5558.663,"text":"那去攻擊到了一些學生那甚至在我的選區裡面常常會有流浪犬他們直接突破那個隔離然後跳到那個養雞的養雞戶或養鵝的戶裡面甚至還有誇張到還會自己挖洞然後"},{"start":5561.172,"end":5581.11,"text":"衝進那種豬寮裡面然後去裡面攻擊那在這種狀況的時候常常會產生的一個結果就是這一些受害者他們沒有辦法對任何他的財產上或者是他的健康他的生命的一個損失他們是沒有辦法去做任何的一個求償的所以我認為說至少有一個事主"},{"start":5581.87,"end":5596.523,"text":"相當於事主的概念那在出事情的時候這一些因為他實際上長期在定時定點有餵養他那他就應該要負擔相對應的一些民事的責任而且重點這個是民事的責任"},{"start":5596.983,"end":5617.14,"text":"他還是要透過舉證責任也就是受害者得去舉證去證明說事實上他事實上透過餵養他已經實質有在管理這樣的一個流浪的一個犬隻所以希望就是說透過這樣定義的方式讓這樣的責任是可以有一個"},{"start":5617.88,"end":5635.581,"text":"清楚的一個分明而不是說大家有點把它延伸到說我這個法案叫做禁止餵食事實上我沒有禁止餵食你是偶然為之就是說你忽然有一隻遊覽狗過來然後你拿個東西給牠吃這沒有問題那或者是你在"},{"start":5637.503,"end":5661.238,"text":"你臨時性的一個觸發的一個行為這都不會有問題真的是最後我們我覺得要去處理的就是說當這樣定點餵食的時候這一些流浪犬他可能就會選擇留在固定的地方那既然他們選擇留在固定的地方那造成的如果進一步有人受傷那是不是這部分至少讓他有個管道可以讓他去"},{"start":5662.038,"end":5681.723,"text":"去做他他应该要有的一些一些诉讼上然后他去负责任所以我想这个要做一个澄清那我们当然都是希望怎么做好源头管理包括说未来怎样去做晶片弃养的人是不是可以再来这个加深他的处罚这源头管理很重要但是现阶段我们知道"},{"start":5682.623,"end":5711.382,"text":"現在社會差不多有13萬隻流浪的犬隻這13萬隻它確實會造成部分人受害那這些受害者他要怎麼辦我們總是還是要想一個辦法所以我希望農業部就是說我知道說你們希望就是說這個因為我的法案你還沒進來那你們也希望說有更多更廣泛的討論這個我接受但是你們還繼續思考現階段整個農業部對於流浪犬的管理力道"},{"start":5713.684,"end":5740.982,"text":"不管是你們預算的不好還是怎麼樣就是造成了這一些流浪犬他還事實上他有侵害到別人的產業有危害到別人的健康甚至還有很多我還看到有老人甚至被流浪狗咬死的新聞這樣出來那總是要有一個後端的一個這個訴訟的一個機制然後來做一個權力的一個橫評那這是我的一個主要的一個訴求謝謝"},{"start":5743.254,"end":5771.136,"text":"好 那们请李坤诚委员谢谢谢谢主席我想讨论到现在大概就是对于这个事主还有虐待大家有不同的意见那对于事主我也希望说部长这边在对于动物之所有人大家没有意见实际管理动物之人我想这部分是不是等一下再请部长再说得更清楚一点那其实刚刚有提到说其实流浪犬的问题的确需要去做管理但是"},{"start":5772.057,"end":5792.506,"text":"流浪群的責任跟屬於這個不特定對象然後去餵食的這一群我們講的這一群人他們是不是具有直接的連帶關係我想可能還要打上一個問號這是第一個第二個就虐待的部分其實我想在布裡面有提到說"},{"start":5794.248,"end":5817.787,"text":"就是飼養管理之必須行為就前面除飼養管理或處置目的之必須行為外我想說這條是一定前面這些文字是一定要加進去嗎那還是說直接我們就是定義就是說用暴力不當使用藥品這些東西就來定義這一個虐待就可以了因為我不太清楚說前面加這段文字的用意在哪裡當然可能部長也說明一下 謝謝"},{"start":5820.014,"end":5844.845,"text":"要一併說明你們記錄接下來郭益勤委員郭益勤委員 曾志全委員再來林旦樺委員 謝謝我想這一條包含其實剛剛益勤委員她所說的就是可能有人會侵入到這個他自己的所謂的這個土地裡面然後去因為餵食的關係但是我想這個餵食到底餵食等不等同於流浪動物的數量"},{"start":5845.865,"end":5862.868,"text":"不檢這個能不能畫上等號這就像剛剛昆城委員所說的這個其實要畫上一個很大的一個問號那因為這一條其實目前為止我們所聽到的其實是沒有沒有太多的一個共識啦就我講的是社會共識這件事情"},{"start":5863.709,"end":5887.701,"text":"那就是然後再來就是熱區到底要劃多大然後就是被定義成熱區這個熱區要維持多久要禁止餵食多久那有沒有一些配套的措施那我想這個部分也要請農業部來回應一下然後另外就是說我們如果要去執行所謂的這個熱區的管理餵食的這樣子的一個行為或檢舉這樣的一個行為"},{"start":5889.242,"end":5912.587,"text":"是不是也要交付地方的凍檢員那我們現在全台灣的凍檢員是291人是不到300人他們有沒有這樣子的一個量能去處理這樣子的一個事情那我們今天其實討論的就是我看了大家的版本就比較沒有爭議的大部分都會是說希望這個虐待動物的我們把這個刑責拉高然後把"},{"start":5913.408,"end":5932.789,"text":"這個所謂的非法繁殖的這件事情其實我們也納入在這個嚴格要取締的一個對象的目的之一那我想也賦予凍檢員有更多的執法權利但我們在賦予凍檢員執法的權利其實在第一線我們處理的人力是完全不夠的狀況之下291人是全台灣喔"},{"start":5934.671,"end":5963.991,"text":"到底什麼人要來走這個有沒有辦法可以承擔這些如果真的進就是這一條進入入法了之後然後再來如果說是侵入到別人的領地當中去做餵食的動作或者是因為餵食然後這些流浪犬造成的所謂的這個不管是農損或是個人財務的部分是不是其實還有其他的法也存在因為這個像刑法306條你如果侵入到別人的土地其實光是這個"},{"start":5964.751,"end":5992.887,"text":"所謂的這個舉證他其實就可以依照刑法來做處理那一定要放在動物保護法裡面嗎這是我的以上意見那也請農業部回應一下我們的動檢員有沒有辦法來處理這件事情還有現在社會當中有兩種不同的一個聲音我們應該要怎麼樣來來彌平這些旗艦好 以上好 謝謝接下來我們請鄭正前委員請農業部將委員所提的待會一併來做說明 謝謝"},{"start":5993.905,"end":6017.79,"text":"OK 针对那个第三条部分因为那四组定义这部分那因为刚刚义渝的版本其实我发现在资本里面没有排进来那不过因为刚刚义渝也那个讲得很清楚他对于这个定时定点未时之人这个四组新定义这部分那我个人其实是有几个点要提出来就是说因为我觉得这个问题其实它不是一个价值选择它也包括说"},{"start":6018.63,"end":6047.582,"text":"技术面怎么去第一线执行上的问题所以对于所谓的定时定点这个部分其实我就会有一些疑问就是怎么样才叫定时那什么叫定点那因为比方说他们很多时候在喂食的时候可能在一个区域当中并不一定是真正的一个小范围的一个定点在那个地方那时间的部分来说的时候因为事实上在做这个喂食的部分来讲其实他们有些时候其实是不特定的"},{"start":6048.962,"end":6076.303,"text":"誰吼那所以他們事實上很多具體的現象是多人輪流餵食那多人輪流餵食的時候誰才是真正的事主我覺得這部分可能也必須農業部這邊也必須好好去思考一下這個問題我們如果要訂一個新的一個法律出來的時候那不要造成第一線包括執法的人或者相關的人他們的一些困擾所以我在想說針對那個事主定義這邊的時候我覺得可能必須要有比較"},{"start":6076.963,"end":6101.528,"text":"诶 详细一点的一个考量因为比方说轮流喂食这边的时候我们就会发现而且这些犬只来讲的时候呢他们很可能也没有办法去对照到底是张三李是ABC谁在特定的去喂养特定的犬只那对于这样的一些认定我们如果到时候要执法有一些处罚相关的部分的时候我们第一线人要怎么去做"},{"start":6102.188,"end":6130.208,"text":"还是事实上第一线的人其实会无所适从没有办法真正去执行这样的一个法律所以我在想说针对这个事主的定义可能大家要稍微做一个更细致的一个思考以上谢谢好谢谢接下来林大焕委员再接下来就那个谢一芳委员谢谢好那个我请我回归于这个狗的特性啊"},{"start":6131.141,"end":6149.679,"text":"到底这个狗它是一个一定是群聚那狗的这个我先讲一点第一个我先谴责一下农业部因为我觉得历任的农业部部长是没有动物生命关联的"},{"start":6150.492,"end":6177.829,"text":"当我们在讲动物的生命权要不要入线的时候这个议题都已经提升到生命权动物它是属于生命的一部分要入线的讨论的时候这样的一个民意都已经在民间这样的讨论的时候那在我们的相关的立法我觉得农业部还是以物权来做这样的"},{"start":6178.63,"end":6199.891,"text":"一个立法所以我谴责的部分是你们应该要让任何的这个游荡动物都应该有所归促所以我的论点在历届的咨询都提到如果当公立的收容所不足的时候就应该善用"},{"start":6200.552,"end":6222.411,"text":"把我们民间的收容所把它纳入我们整个在安置游荡动物的一个民间协力的一个政策但是也就是因为我们历任的部长都没有生命权也不接受生命教育就直接来当部长"},{"start":6222.871,"end":6240.911,"text":"所以就是只好变成我们现在游荡动物这个事情就必须谁在处理其实都是民间在做所以才会有这个喂养或者是宠物嘛如果这个动物它变成是自己家犬那就变成宠物啦百分百的驯化"},{"start":6242.453,"end":6257.73,"text":"那其实狗它也来自狼狼之后这个野性的狼经过长期的驯化之后变成狗了然后变成家犬了那家犬是百分百驯化的狼这个物种是这样子来的啊"},{"start":6258.19,"end":6283.844,"text":"好那家犬他不会当然他就是完全是以人跟人建立起关系他跟他的同侪也就是他的其他的狗的同侪不见得有这样的一个感情的建立了好那现在回归到流浪犬当他不能成立宠物的时候他就是在外流荡那在外流荡的时候谁在处理他谁在喂养他"},{"start":6284.864,"end":6313.495,"text":"不会是官员吧都是全台湾的爱心爸爸爱心妈妈去喂养所以过往我也都主张针对这些爱心的爸爸妈妈们呢也应该要给他专业的支持有爱心不一定有专业就算他有专业他想要透过也需要一些公权力的支持所以这个我的一个第一个小结这个到底喂养"},{"start":6314.707,"end":6322.132,"text":"好 如果這個餵養是不是會有降低你的流浪權"},{"start":6325.751,"end":6353.873,"text":"这个你们要回答群聚的喂养会不会降低流浪群也就是说你现在如果不做群聚的喂养我坚决反对随机喂养像阳明山那些野狗然后人民就看到然后就养然后就是四处乱上造成山林的破坏我坚决反对随机喂养但是这个群聚的喂养你们要不要"},{"start":6354.634,"end":6379.519,"text":"管理也因为群聚的喂养现在都民间自主的所以我们才能执行TNR因为执行的TNR能够所谓类精准捕抓因为我说类似精准捕抓还有一定的定义我说类精准捕抓因为群聚了我比较好能够抓一些能够抓起来做结扎"},{"start":6380.899,"end":6405.866,"text":"甚至是不是能从中当中去特别针对比较凶残的攻击性的狗我特别除了结扎之外特别在做什么样的处理这个就是群聚喂养目前你能够让这个流浪狗降低的最重要的一个手段就是因为你的群聚的喂养而能执行TNR而降低了流浪狗"},{"start":6406.772,"end":6430.104,"text":"好那至於如果我個人所閱讀的文獻沒有錯誤的話會去做人畜犬人犬攻擊或者是犬畜攻擊的做人犬攻擊的大部分都是家狗譬如說我會去跑到馬路上跑到哪裡去攻擊"},{"start":6432.017,"end":6437.586,"text":"我如果阅读的监察院的文献没有错误的话80%都是来自家犬"},{"start":6438.991,"end":6462.711,"text":"好去攻擊那些雞啦那個去牧場的都是野狗就是他是完全是處於飢餓的狀態他才會去餵養他他才會是因為我沒有我找不到食物所以他幾乎就狼性他就是狼性的狗所以他就是野化的狗所以他就去攻擊那反而是因為沒有餵養"},{"start":6463.931,"end":6480.084,"text":"所以今天我覺得回歸今天法案的來講其實每個委員不分黨派這都是希望能夠對這個尊重生命即使是流浪狗都希望他是自然"},{"start":6480.865,"end":6496.429,"text":"安死自然安死安養沒辦法得到但是自然的安死透過結紮然後他自然的就會死亡了他的年齡也確實一定會比我們的家犬會短短少所以自然了"},{"start":6497.13,"end":6520.324,"text":"那是不是要透過今天另外一個議題產生2 飢餓如果飢餓會達到減少流浪犬嗎這是一個另外一個議題飢餓不會減少流浪犬它只是激勵的群聚野化的狗更加攻擊性的去"},{"start":6521.431,"end":6526.475,"text":"如果这边是我们可以讨论的基础的话好那么回归法令了"},{"start":6548.243,"end":6561.424,"text":"今天用飢餓用禁止餵食是不是能夠達到人群的能夠減少人群的衝突顯然是不會的好"},{"start":6562.011,"end":6586.07,"text":"那要不要去管理群聚的喂食我认为这是要的那要不要第三个我要不要解决人畜的犬畜的攻击这个事情确实是要处理怎么可以让这个动物然后游荡游荡的动物去攻击到人呢甚至这个野化"},{"start":6587.891,"end":6610.993,"text":"這個野化的這樣的一個犬隻我們就任由他他在四處野化去攻擊我們的經濟作物呢這個當然要處理可是回歸是要用禁止用禁止餵食用飢餓來達到這樣的目的如果可行如果真可行那我你們再討論"},{"start":6612.935,"end":6636.761,"text":"那如果不可行方法又是在哪裡所以我對於衝突熱區我個人是支持你們行政院的版本你們的版本雖然沒出來但我也閱讀了你們禁制在什麼什麼保育區等一下你們說明一下你們好像有六個嘛那那個我認為我支持那我也支持現在賴清德總統的叫做衛星"},{"start":6638.269,"end":6660.329,"text":"衛星什麼那個我們總統公布的那個衛星那個收容所他要林務署去盤點哪些林務森林是可以作為不影響生態這個是前提喔不影響山林生態的情況之下去建置所謂的收容所"},{"start":6661.531,"end":6675.146,"text":"這個好 我覺得賴總統這個就是好所以他也在公部門的收容所跟民間的收容所當中再找出一條路來做收容那這個可能對於我們遊蕩動物的安置"},{"start":6676.007,"end":6697.339,"text":"跟安養也許是一個動作但這個就要部長您指示下去林務署因為我知道林務署完全沒動作把總統的這樣的一個政策呢把它呢就當做耳邊風這個就等一下也看你怎麼樣的指示好 以上那我就是對於衝突樂趣我支持行政院版本"},{"start":6697.839,"end":6726.457,"text":"用禁止餵食而來達到也就是說也不要說禁止餵食這件事情我個人是非常非常反對因為它只會造成更多的問題它會造成我流浪犬沒有辦法進行截殺它造成了我的這個群聚狼隻的集體的野化因為它找不到食物那對我人跟保育類動物那更慘"},{"start":6727.859,"end":6744.894,"text":"那對於這個我們的這個基於這個這個群聚的如何是不是要去規範到群聚的這個定時定點的餵養因為現在民間自然在做那你們要不要去管理"},{"start":6745.655,"end":6771.497,"text":"那我覺得你們多多跟民間的再多一些討論吧我也不希望因為他們的這樣定時餵養造成周邊的一個環境的污染啊那甚至是不是有噪音啊這個也不對啊所以你們要不要納入管理我想這個也你們可以多跟民間的這些動保社團再多一些討論吧好 謝謝 以上好 謝謝接下來我們請謝一芬委員 謝謝"},{"start":6773.71,"end":6795.587,"text":"考量到未来我们到了23条要来讨论就是这些洞检员是否就是变成洞保官或者是动物警察这样子的一个更具有强制力的一个公务人员的身份的时候那的确我们对于目前这个事主是不是要把这种"},{"start":6797.128,"end":6813.879,"text":"非特定区域就是未养的这样子的一些善心人士那把它列为共同的事主那我认为这个部分必须要来严格界定因为这会导致到未来执法的时候"},{"start":6814.899,"end":6837.497,"text":"會有模糊的空間以至於所有的執法人員或者是大家要來做這些強制力的時候會有不同的界定的方式我相信可能我們過去如果是在動檢員的階段時候我們對於這個事主的界定也許不用這樣子這麼"},{"start":6839.418,"end":6865.641,"text":"明确但是未来如果要赋予洞检员或者是动物警察更高的强制力的时候再麻烦其他的委员对于这个事主就是说到底要不要把这种非特定的就是说我们一个热区的这些流浪犬猫然后有固定喂养或者是轮流喂养等等的把它列为共同的事主"},{"start":6866.681,"end":6880.709,"text":"這會影響到未來執法的這些問題以及這些共同事主有沒有辦法去負擔這些犬貓他們所有的行為這也會面臨到就是說未來我們在"},{"start":6881.189,"end":6906.333,"text":"做相关的一些公权力行使的时候的一些问题还有也会主确了这些善心人士去协助就是我们政府来共同管理这样子流浪犬猫的这个问题那我觉得这个部分我们是不是后续应该要更详加的讨论那希望说就是说大家对于这个问题能够"},{"start":6906.733,"end":6922.354,"text":"明确就是说如果我们要给强制力的时候那是不是应该对于模糊的事主的认定以及定义是不是应该要更就是说更更审慎呢好谢谢"},{"start":6923.049,"end":6944.48,"text":"好 謝謝 接下來我們請郭玉琴委員好 我想這個1998年我們的這個動保法到現在喔那我們之所以會有這個動物保護法其實就是希望能夠賦予這些需要被保護的動物一個法律上的一個慰藉啦那我想這些所謂的這個動物保護其實也應該是也含括所有的"},{"start":6945.22,"end":6971.875,"text":"動物那也包含流浪動物那我想這個流浪動物並不是後面才額外加進來被保護的一個對象那回歸到其實剛剛其實幾位委員有特別提到這也是我一直不斷的在強調就是我們的收容量能其實各地的收容所的收容量能基本上是從2017年林安樂政策上路之後那再加上其實在那一兩年當中"},{"start":6973.837,"end":6992.736,"text":"必須說啦當時其實會不會是因為沒有配套所以這個TNR的強度做得不夠導致現在還是有很多的所謂的流浪貓狗的一個問題喔那我想這也是必須我們大家一起要去承擔的一個部分喔那我也一直在強調就是公司協力的一個部分我們怎麼樣讓"},{"start":6993.777,"end":7023.137,"text":"因為民間在做所謂的TNR TNR當時其實已經變成是一種國家的政策但是現在在第一線的做TNR的這些所謂的志工們現在因為這樣子的一個想說要把所謂的不管是熱區也好禁止餵食的也好或者是餵食的嚴格的管理的這些所謂的要入法其實我的辦公室這兩天已經接到無數通的電話是來自於第一線的志工他們說那以後我變成次組"},{"start":7023.797,"end":7040.158,"text":"那我真的不敢再餵了因為我擔心但是為什麼他們會有這樣子的一個擔心就是因為回歸到我們的這個農業部應該做的事情就是我們收容的量能不夠啦我們收容的量能真的不足所以在這個TNR"},{"start":7041.4,"end":7063.752,"text":"的狀況之下其實我們會不會真的讓很多在前線幫我們在做這些強制結紮的這些志工們有寒蟬效應這個法進來之後有沒有這麼大的一個爭議還有回歸到剛剛我說的我們的凍檢員已經是每年招考每年不足"},{"start":7064.452,"end":7089.785,"text":"現在再加了這一條進來我們將來要處理的可能也不只是人權的問題還有人跟人之間的衝突這個部分是不是也應該要一併的考慮進去那目前為止其實兩邊的旗艦還是這麼的大那所以我想這個部分是不是也請農業部好好的來說明一下就是剛剛各個委員所提到的這些他們有質疑的一個部分以上"},{"start":7090.885,"end":7105.002,"text":"好 謝謝那我們最後再請農業部針對委員所提出的 不管是提案委員或現場委員所提出那不管是樂區等灰脊椎的納入那還有市主的這個問題 這個爭議非常的大"},{"start":7107.225,"end":7127.442,"text":"聲音非常的大還有定時定點怎麼去認定目前我們總共只有291人那要怎麼樣去能夠真正的落實我想我們修法最重要的除了聆聽各團體的意見社會大眾的共識委員的提案行政部門的一個說法跟提案"},{"start":7128.543,"end":7153.103,"text":"那在這個充分討論我們總是希望能夠解決問題是真正能夠保護動物那真正也能夠讓這個所有的社會大眾達到一個共識這個就是我一直很希望的將這個時間給社會大眾以及給委員所提案跟行政部門好好的溝通再溝通好 請行政部門針對於這個部分請說明"},{"start":7157.365,"end":7163.269,"text":"我想首先謝謝剛才發言的所有的委員的一些建議然後我在這邊我想做幾個說明"},{"start":7165.737,"end":7193.197,"text":"就行政部門來講我們制定任的一個法案或者修訂一個法案特別是動保法的時候我們第一個考慮的就是這些法案一定要有可執行性如果沒有辦法可執行性的時候到時候立了法以後變成說後續沒辦法做到位那會變成負面的一直這樣循環所以我們是採取這樣的一個態度第二個態度就是說我想動物保護本身除了"},{"start":7194.338,"end":7222.623,"text":"在家飼養的寵物或者是放養的這些犬隻或者是遊蕩的這些犬隻事實上我們都要尊重而且是應該是用一致性的一個方式去尊重這個動物的生命這個特別是剛才林太華委員所提到的我想我們在第一條的那個用詞第一條的那個目的的時候其實就把動物尊重動物生命這個名詞已經放進去了那這個部分我想第一點要說明的"},{"start":7223.284,"end":7226.039,"text":"第二個部分就是因為法案裡面有"},{"start":7227.168,"end":7255.578,"text":"不同的利害關係人對於一件事情的看法可能會不一樣那我們希望在修法的過程中其實動法法從立法以來他已經修了十幾次十五次了那這麼多次修正就是說有共識的我們先處理這樣動法法才能夠一步一步的往前走沒有辦法一次解決那如果說需要再溝通再討論的部分我們都希望說能夠在"},{"start":7256.858,"end":7271.909,"text":"更積極的去做溝通讓各界的利害關係有一個共識的方向我們再來處理這是我想農業部的一個基本立場那接下來剛才提到的有幾個委員的議題就是飼養的問題的部分飼主的部分"},{"start":7272.529,"end":7301.528,"text":"那市的部分特別是像蔡議員所提到的定時定點的餵養那因為一旦做因為這一條是做定義一旦這邊做了定義以後就會牽連到後面的這些餵養的這些責任或是是不是有一些義務的部分所以當有一些委員版本所提到的定時定點的時候那相對的我剛才說了因為在執行面"},{"start":7302.929,"end":7330.006,"text":"我们不可能蹲点永远一直蹲点再去看是不是定时定点所以它的执行面是非常困难的而且喂食的时候在外面喂食的时候它不是特定的犬吃都是那一只来吃可能有不特定的族群的狗来做这样子的一个接受喂食的动作所以在后续我想可能需要更多的"},{"start":7330.726,"end":7358.798,"text":"这些讨论才能够把这些喂养的部分能够做比较有精准的但是后面的条文会扯到一些喂养的动作也许不一定在现在定义的时候就去处理把这样的一个更严谨的规范放进去因为它会扯到后面的条文那后面条文如果说大家有一个更好的共识的时候必须再去重新修改前面的定义的时候我们再来处理这是我第一个意见第二个部分是"},{"start":7359.798,"end":7377.195,"text":"刚才特别提到的就是热区的部分那我也跟各位报告其实热区其实最终的目的就是让我们的资源能够更精准的去投入这个人选址比较多的这样的一个热区那相对的"},{"start":7377.856,"end":7400.411,"text":"因為現在目前我們有一些所謂的生態熱區為了保護野生動物有一些生態熱區有一些環境熱區的部分那現在如果說畫這樣的一個熱區它必須要有一個科學的依據而且要有一個非常非常精準的一個調查因為熱區一旦定義下去的時候就要有界限"},{"start":7401.232,"end":7410.323,"text":"它不能是一個範圍 不能是一個範圍可是當你去看遊蕩犬群聚那群聚不一定會造成問題"},{"start":7412.975,"end":7437.348,"text":"因為我們如果現在觀察一些犬隻的攻擊它可能是一個隨機性的偶然性的那雖然說群聚有可能造成類似起哄的這個動作但是所有的事情都必須要經過更精準的這些調查所以後續我想在整個熱區裡面我想農業部已經會啟動絕對會啟動一個更精準的調查我剛才也問了"},{"start":7438.268,"end":7453.317,"text":"过往在所谓的科学研究的过程里面对于这种动物的特别是游荡犬的动物的部分的行为的部分几乎很少涉猎那我觉得我们更应该鼓励更多的研究投入这方面"},{"start":7454.118,"end":7469.336,"text":"包括動物的這些行為模式當作我們後面的一個執政的執行的一個參考我剛才回到剛才講的就算它在外面是流蕩的我們也要做適當的一個處理這個處理絕對不是就是把它殺掉"},{"start":7470.017,"end":7496.448,"text":"我們一定要有一個比較好的安置的地方給他所以我剛才也一方面回應剛才那個林大萬委員所提到的那因為扯到後面的條文就是我們現在目前已經針對那個野生動物保護區自然保護區跟自然保留區三個區我們是依照那個野保法森林法我們劃設這個園區禁止餵養那為什麼要禁止餵養因為"},{"start":7497.867,"end":7526.529,"text":"它會造成跟裡面的野生動物做一些衝突啦所以這個在辦法上面我們已經訂了那第二個部分就是我們也啟動了所有的在嚴提農村再生計畫我想全台灣有非常非常多的社區都提農村再生計畫我也正式把要去做動物保護注重動物福利的這個項目把它名列在你要執行農村再生計畫裡面的一個要件"},{"start":7527.43,"end":7549.756,"text":"因為過往都是由動保師單一個經費去支持那經費一定有限那人手也是因為委辦的部分補助的部分都是有限的那唯有透過比較更大的層面的經費支持才有可能做到去落實動物保護的這個部分這是第二個第三個就是剛才所提到的就是"},{"start":7551.294,"end":7565.825,"text":"可不可能做在我們的現在目前的不會影響生態前提之下的一些所謂的保留區的部分去做一個所謂的動物收容這是我個人提的而且經國總統那邊會議的時候去討論的那我們也"},{"start":7570.871,"end":7598.043,"text":"要求了林保署提供了多筆的土地然後也處理去現勘的部分所以這個部分我想我們用沙盒的方式先去做處理因為唯有收容的處所比較充分的時候才有機會讓這些遊蕩犬有家可回啦這是我想我基本的看法因為我家裡也養狗也養貓所以我對這個東西一直是非常重視的這是第二個第三個就是剛才委員提到就是虐待裡面"},{"start":7598.923,"end":7623.282,"text":"的第一段寫的除止飼養管理及處置目的之必須行為外為什麼要放這個東西最主要是我們講動物除了寵物以外還有一些經濟動物那經濟動物的時候就必須做相關的這些這些飼養管理或處置為目的所以我我們還是有把這個條文放進去這是部分然後剛才"},{"start":7624.002,"end":7649.037,"text":"委員也提到的有非常多的這些凍檢員現在291位其實我們接受到我們統計全臺灣接受到這種虐待動物的這些通報一年大概十幾萬件平均一個月大概一萬多件那這麼多的案件裡面我怎麼樣讓凍檢員能夠有充分的人力去做這樣的一個支持這個部分我想我們也"},{"start":7650.305,"end":7674.467,"text":"也一直在跟人種這邊做溝通因為地方政府的凍檢凍保人員跟防疫人員經常是在同一個單位當你防疫多的時候你的所有的人員就調去做防疫所以凍檢人員反而是很辛苦的一群所以這個部分如果說我們的標的沒有辦法非常精準的時候就會造成他們後續"},{"start":7676.07,"end":7684.504,"text":"去做處置的時候徒勞沒有相關的一個功能存在這是我想基本上另外有一個就是"},{"start":7685.68,"end":7707.209,"text":"我剛才說了就是動物的行為後續要更做有系統的去調查包括牠的分布那這個部分我想我們會處理包括也可以去處理到剛才有委員提到的這種群聚的這些犬隻到底牠的跟牠的一個餵養是不是有直接的關聯性那這個部分我想在不同的團體牠們的認知"},{"start":7709.21,"end":7735.92,"text":"是不一樣的所以我可以說像這種就是比較不同的認知我們應該用科學跟事實的調查來跟外界做溝通所以我最後的建議就是說在這一條裡面除了虐待裡面放進去以外那其他的條文因為都沒有得到一個大家一致的共識然後是先建議不放那有一些是在後續條文會處理到的"},{"start":7736.34,"end":7747.371,"text":"那如果處理覺得說大家有共識的時候再往前去處理這個定義的問題以上謝謝接下來我們請哪一位邱志偉委員然後蔡議員"},{"start":7751.422,"end":7766.162,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席部長您剛剛提到就是我們修法要具有可執行性如果是一個空泛的概念就沒有辦法去執行所以提到這個樂區我第一個問題想請教國外有沒有相關的立法例"},{"start":7767.123,"end":7781.802,"text":"關於熱區作為一個執行的手段沒有如果沒有的話它是一個在台灣才有的一個概念這概念最後形成政策政策要去執行所以你說要必須要用一個科學對不對"},{"start":7782.771,"end":7805.542,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得應該要好好的探討因為國外沒有相關的立法例也沒有相關的政策在執行那你的樂區你說要有一個科學標準那要畫攝 畫攝之前是不是要有個指引有個指引你這個到時候畫攝是地方政府的權還是中央政府的權會不會造成這個權責不分所以這個部分"},{"start":7808.354,"end":7828.373,"text":"我覺得這個要好好的討論因為你國外如果有相關成功的立法例或者執行成效不錯又符合科學而且我覺得要有共識要有共識因為這個它是一個移動的概念它不是一個它是一個動態我可能說這個永遠樂趣永遠是樂趣"},{"start":7830.649,"end":7847.324,"text":"有时候其他区域有可能一段时间之后还变乐趣所以它是一个动态的我觉得这个应该要好好的深入去分析一下我说以上建议来 蔡议员我想"},{"start":7848.513,"end":7865.368,"text":"首先我同意部長說在這個議題要收納更多的不同意見這個我同意但是我想部長你身為農業部事實上你也知道為什麼流浪的犬隻最多的地方在哪裡大概都在High Cow"},{"start":7866.582,"end":7891.659,"text":"為什麼都在海邊因為有養殖養殖漁業那現在的流浪犬他們基本上已經有辦法直接跳到養殖池裡面然後去抓魚所以他們是有固會有一點食物的來源不能說固定而至少說是說養殖池裡面的大概流浪犬就會集中在整個沿海這個是事實上大家都知道的事實"},{"start":7892.697,"end":7915.694,"text":"那在沿海地區的流浪犬如果他們既然有養殖池裡面的魚可以吃那他們有沒有減少對於一些人的追逐或者是因為就是說造成人的一些傷亡還是有發生所以這是都是寄存的一個事實所以我現在強調的就是說現階段我們"},{"start":7916.952,"end":7942.208,"text":"社會上就是有13萬隻的流浪犬而且這些流浪犬目前也都還在看起來是在增加的那當然是說我們是不是就這個TNR的落實度還不夠所以我 我覺得說社會上很多事情大家都可以來討論而不是說有一個想法一個概念提出的時候哇 就是站在批判基本上我的提案我從來沒有說要禁止餵食喔"},{"start":7942.913,"end":7966.171,"text":"我没有说要禁止喂我只是说既然你在固定定时定点的喂食的话那你就承担一点责任如果万一有出状况的时候你总是要跟这一些受伤的人去得面对他因为你定时定点当然您说的在进入细节的讨论定时定点不见得是同一只流浪犬"},{"start":7967.553,"end":7982.83,"text":"這個都沒錯所以這個就是舉證的困難那舉證的困難的環節點要在哪一段被釐清呢不是你們釐清耶你們不用釐清耶是哪一段要釐清你知道吧部長你也知道吧是法官要釐清這是法院舉證責任的問題"},{"start":7986.173,"end":8009.441,"text":"那我們也知道在訴訟過程中舉證之所在敗訴之所在誰要負舉證責任當然是受傷的被害者要負舉證責任他要去舉證說攻擊我的這隻流浪犬是有人定時定點在餵食他所以我基本上我把他認為他有實質的在管理這隻流浪犬所以我認為我的財產損失我的受傷"},{"start":8014.443,"end":8035.61,"text":"跟這隻流浪犬有關係那實質管理他的人是不是也要跟我負點一起責任所以這個站在農業部的立場你們只要把這件事宣導好而且我覺得你們更應該宣導的應該是我講白了啦我養了一隻我養了一隻喔剪了耳朵的流浪貓養了8年"},{"start":8036.929,"end":8066.349,"text":"剪了耳朵就表示他曾經流浪過然後被抓去結紮然後把他剪耳在日本為了鼓勵大家去養這樣有剪耳的飼犬都把這個剪耳膠剪成一個櫻花的形狀然後把它叫做櫻花貓然後去鼓勵這樣的行為就我們今天好像有一點就是說我們不是在鼓勵大家去把流浪犬帶回去飼養我們沒有去鼓勵這樣的行為我們反而在鼓勵的變成是說我去"},{"start":8067.169,"end":8093.032,"text":"我去養牠我去野外養牠然後讓牠繼續流浪只是我給牠我去餵食牠然後讓牠有一頓的溫飽這樣的話並不是整個解決這件事情的方法而且我也沒有要禁止這件事情我只是認為說一旦發生事情的時候讓法院有個標準那這個標準去定奪出這一些責任的一個歸屬"},{"start":8095.058,"end":8112.25,"text":"我是覺得說這總是要面對問題嘛我們想要這個問題在更細膩的討論的時候我也主張說好那我們也可以甚至再做一些排外除外條款說好如果這一隻產生問題的流浪犬它是已經絕渣的或者是這個位置的人他"},{"start":8113.393,"end":8140.521,"text":"他可以举证证明说我基本上就是在带犬只去劫渣的人就是我是这个志工的概念我都带犬只去完成劫渣那我可以免除责任我觉得再细腻一点这样讨论也可以那就等于说让麦希针对这些在协助我们处理流浪狗的人我们不要去苛语他任何的责任但是喂食者有好的喂食者也是有不好的喂食者吧"},{"start":8141.912,"end":8163.713,"text":"这些比较需要比较不当的喂食者那一旦发生问题的时候他就一句话说不是我家的狗那是流浪狗然后就这样屁股拍拍什么都不管了这样也不好而且这样对于我们在面对流浪狗的政策的时候也不是一个解决之道"},{"start":8164.774,"end":8190.054,"text":"所以我就同意 我同意柏丁 你再多聽一點意見可是我今天我是把這些聲音帶給你而且我實際上 我來自海靠我們寶堤當初我們這裡有很多養殖漁運的我們那裡的流浪狗超級多為什麼超級多呢因為他們有固定的食物的一個來源他們可以去漁運那裡但是這些流浪狗他們對於人 車的追逐性沒有減少"},{"start":8191.135,"end":8207.956,"text":"看起來是這個樣子而且聲音最大的大概也都來自於沿海地帶大家跟遊覽狗人畜的衝突最大的反而不是在都市真的是在沿海地帶這個可以思考一下"},{"start":8208.874,"end":8230.777,"text":"好謝謝接下來張雅玲委員好謝謝那我想我們在81年初的時候呢訂立了這個動保法當時是因為在花蓮縣新竹縣跟台北縣連續發生三期犬隻咬死幼童的一個事件引起了社會的關注所以開始了有了這樣子的起點那剛剛呢其實部長有講到生命權這個概念"},{"start":8234.042,"end":8261.838,"text":"這也是要講到生命權的概念但是我想就是在自然保護區或是剛剛講的那些區域裡面我們是禁止餵食有講到生命權是因為要保護到野生動物的生命權但是我們現在在不管是沿海地區也好都會地區也好它跟經濟動物之間產生的這個衝突那誰的生命權應該被照顧呢然後再來還有它因為我其實一直以來處理了很多大學很多的大學特別是最近屏東這個"},{"start":8263.732,"end":8283.299,"text":"屏東科大他們又發生了這個女學生差點被衝出來的遊蕩犬差點已經是有受傷啦差點死亡的一個狀態而這樣子的案例其實是層出不窮的那這個生命權又應該如何選擇呢我覺得這其實是一個好多人的生命到底應該如何抉擇的一個狀態啦這是一個很困難"},{"start":8284.139,"end":8310.99,"text":"因為我想今天大家在場的討論其實所有的委員都是愛都是基於一個愛基於希望怎麼樣去更多的去報這個照顧這樣子的一個心情來去討論這件事情但這真的是一個非常艱難的議題那同時還有像徵收權在去年年底他們發布了一個統計數字就是有九成的那個徵收都受到阻擋包含在花蓮正宅的時候那"},{"start":8312.113,"end":8340.205,"text":"人類在這個救難過程的生命權是不是也非常的珍貴呢所以我想這個是一個可能會需要更多更多的討論來去納入的所以特別再來就是說我的版本其實呢是只有針對衝突樂區那待會我也會針對衝突樂區再進一步的請教這個部長意見但是我要先釐清一件事情澄清一件事情我們現在的衝突樂區應該是本來就是禁止餵食吧"},{"start":8341.677,"end":8357.623,"text":"這是要釐清的第一點那再來就是說我們現在是宣導的概念所以我的版本其實也是沒有完全禁止餵食喔所以TNR還是可以執行的只要你經過主管機關許可就可以誘捕"},{"start":8358.143,"end":8385.381,"text":"跟餵食好這個部分是沒有問題的那再來再回到第二個問題是我們的其實就像剛剛易宇委員講的餵食也不代表他真的有去落實結扎這件事情那也不代表他真的是會給他好的一個照顧因為其實從很多遊蕩犬照出來的X光裡面我們有看到一些照片是可能四個月的幼犬他吃了很多的骨頭在他的肚子裡"},{"start":8386.101,"end":8406.382,"text":"那這樣子的餵食是可以接受的嗎這也是一個很大的問題那再來就是說也有一些前線的TNR的職工告訴我們是說如果一直在餵食的時候他們的誘捕就變得非常的困難這也是前線遇到的一個問題那所以我接下來就想要請教部長幾個問題"},{"start":8409.145,"end":8433.727,"text":"我們現在在114年的這個遊蕩犬的管理經濟措施計畫其實這個應該是還沒有核定嘛那我不太確定這待會可以說明一下我們一直以來都有從108年執行到現在那今年如果沒有核定的話那這個部分到底要不要繼續做下去這是第一個第二個從108年做到現在已經六七年了"},{"start":8434.813,"end":8449.218,"text":"那六七年我們到底有沒有分析出來這個管理計畫的優點是什麼缺點是什麼那這個是不是可以再告訴我們你們的經濟措施又是什麼那再來第三個我們現在因為之前我有在推這個就是APP"},{"start":8450.898,"end":8478.663,"text":"請用公民科學家的概念一起來去呈現到底有多少的遊蕩犬的這個議題嗎可以幫助大家來做更好的政策的制定所以我想要知道你們現在已經上了這個犬中APP到底未來會如何的跟遊蕩犬管理經濟措施計畫做一個銜接呢它到底之間有沒有什麼樣子的聯動關係因為我們其實在我的版本裡面也一直不停的再去強調就是我們一定要經過一個科學研究因為我認為我們現在我覺得這是農業部的失職"},{"start":8480.08,"end":8494.231,"text":"我們這是農業部的失職我們對於這些相關的科學研究包含剛剛部長說群聚也不必然造成攻擊我覺得我們已經做了這麼多年我們還搞不清楚這件事情真的是農業部該打屁股所以"},{"start":8496.912,"end":8514.201,"text":"那這個在這個剛剛有提到就是林保帝的部分我想林保帝之前也是有團體大概在五天內就有三四千人連署抗議了那所以我覺得這個部分的話呢我們在相關的這些討論裡面應該都要廣納更多不同團體的意見"},{"start":8515.495,"end":8535.856,"text":"才對包含我想這個議委他們那邊的產業的團體可能都會受到一些影響我說在整個動保法討論上面應該要廣納更多人的討論因為把所有的利益利害關係人會受害的都應該要納進來討論才會是一個更全面的觀點那我覺得這個還是農業不失職啦謝謝"},{"start":8538.789,"end":8557.919,"text":"好謝謝郭益勤委員好我想這題一直都有很大的這個旗艦不過我想釐清到底這個熱區講的是生態熱區還是衝突熱區那我覺得如果是在生態熱區然後就是要嚴格的禁止"},{"start":8558.659,"end":8582.24,"text":"這個餵食這個管理我覺得應該是比較多人的兩邊的一個共識那這個熱區的定義到底是什麼等一下會請教一下這個農業部那我想這個地方上如果真的碰到所謂的流浪動物群聚這樣子的一個造成衝突的一個問題在地方是不是已經有工具可以給民眾比方說他可以打電話給動保處"},{"start":8583.621,"end":8602.726,"text":"那動保處就會進行去前去捕捉那捕捉完之後看是要安置還是要安置在收容所還是要安置在其他的收容所還是協力的一些所謂的民間的這個收容的一個單位那如果沒辦法收容的時候是不是可能就是比較溫和的狗他們就會進行所謂的TNR"},{"start":8603.226,"end":8628.382,"text":"那天鵝仔可能就是在回治我相信應該是這樣子的一個處理所以民眾如果碰到所謂的人權的衝突或者是流浪動物的一個群聚的一個狀況他覺得已經被受干擾的請問民眾有沒有這方面的工具那地方政府到底有沒有這樣子的工具可以執行我相信這個應該是有的啦應該是有的然後再來我剛剛一直在講"},{"start":8629.767,"end":8645.277,"text":"四組的責任其實真的很重要包含一語委員她所說的就是這個海口的部分其實你們這個海邊的部分其實很多流浪動物的存在那我想其實這個部分也跟所謂的放養的觀念"},{"start":8647.858,"end":8663.232,"text":"這個不准放養的這個觀念沒有被落實在地方有很大很大的一個需要精進的地方你看在都會區其實就沒有相對這樣子的一個問題但是問題到了鄉間到了偏鄉或者是到了這個農業的縣市其實離開了都會區其實放養的習慣"},{"start":8666.415,"end":8690.909,"text":"這個如果沒有被嚴格的改變或執行或者是在強制他們這些所謂的自主你應該要把你平常會放養又不結紮的這些狗狗你應該要去強調的是這個部分的一個結紮的一個管理我覺得這個才是源頭最重要的一件事情那我想跟餵不餵食這件事情我相信現在因為民間還有很多不同的一個聲音我們在這一點如果一直卡在這個第三條"},{"start":8691.929,"end":8719.247,"text":"那我想这个主席我们今天可能一直就会一直不断地卡在这个地方那我们下面其实还有很多的有一些包含大家有共识的虐待动物的刑责我们要把它拉高或者是取缔非法繁殖的这样子的一个条文我们把它写进去赋予动检员更多的执法的权利还有包含动保管的部分我们下面其实真的就不用讨论了所以这条我建议是不是可以先行保留好 谢谢 来"},{"start":8719.927,"end":8730.35,"text":"接下來我們最後一位因為針對這一條我們已經討論超過40分鐘目的就是要讓大家發表大家的意見來最後我們請林大華委員"},{"start":8732.713,"end":8755.573,"text":"在这边我具体做一个建议其实你们有在做只是说没有把它当作一个专案列馆这个参与蔡委员他在海边当中的一个流浪狗的群聚其实这个我要感谢你们其实在我的自己的选区其实你们都有这样的支持因为我主张地毯式"},{"start":8756.314,"end":8778.967,"text":"而且小范围寄地毯小范围不间断的持续一年以上的结扎也就是说我这三个镇头我三个村我三个里特别的有流浪犬的出没好我就你们就一笔经费下来委托县市政府的这个动保处或动保这个单位然后呢就每个星期都做"},{"start":8779.807,"end":8805.155,"text":"只做这三挨征讨连续做几当我不相信那边的这样的流浪犬的结扎不会完备那一区大概有二三十只你大概经过一年而且这样的结扎当然配合你的喂食但喂食只是一个手段我们重点还是减少流浪犬这样的透过喂食TNR然后呢这个"},{"start":8805.935,"end":8827.162,"text":"大量的这个结扎那然后呢再来最后这一招就是配合你现在政府的卫星流浪卫星的收容所你就把这种非常特别群聚的就以蔡玉蔡委员我们未来的蔡县长他特别在意的那一个区域的狗能够全部的"},{"start":8828.137,"end":8853.423,"text":"这个安置安置在你们现在的卫星犬我觉得这个是很好的一个示范因为有目标绵密地毯小范围持续至少一年以上的结扎然后把这些犬只能够安置在你们的卫星犬我觉得这样才能够彻底解决这种群群如果这个案例可以成功那我相信大概这种"},{"start":8854.203,"end":8880.8,"text":"在海边的这种群聚的或者是在龙地经济作物的那种群聚的我觉得就都可以解决所以我以上做这个具体的反而是这样的执行比我今天说谁来喂养谁就有责任因为如果照这样的话连喂养的人他是不是都要全国列管然后哪只狗被喂养了第一只来第二只来第三只来每只狗我都要做记号了"},{"start":8881.46,"end":8908.778,"text":"这个然后呢再让法官法官还是讲证据所以我觉得还是回归我要解决问题降低流浪权安置流浪权这才是正办谢谢以上所以我在这边提出具体专案针对我们未来蔡县长的部分那我会提出这个东西是因为你们有支持过我在我的选区里面去执行我觉得效果非常好"},{"start":8909.838,"end":8913.861,"text":"也就是所以要感謝你們好謝謝好謝謝林大華委員那麼委員衝刃發言來請那個農業部"},{"start":8918.101,"end":8942.031,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一些建議那我還是強調就是說其實任何的物種包括人類跟犬隻其實生命要彼此尊重那像特別是有一些遊蕩犬特別在海邊像這發生在永安的這些野狗咬死人我覺得當我們的人外出的時候會因為擔心而不敢外出"},{"start":8942.771,"end":8961.322,"text":"那基本上我們就必須做適度的去做這些處理的方式這處理絕對不是就把它撲殺掉那我想這也是我剛才講的就是我會用農村再生計畫強力的去做這樣子的一個有關於動物福利跟動物保護的"},{"start":8962.162,"end":8977.447,"text":"包括結紮這些東西包括去徵收包括剛才林大華委員講的這些東西因為農村再生它可以普及到更多的這些農村社區因為現在很多遊蕩犬在都會區是比較不會發生但是在鄉下區是比較多的"},{"start":8977.907,"end":8992.141,"text":"所以用這種專案因為農災計畫就是一個專案的方式那過往農災計畫是沒有這個項目的我把它強制納入一個項目而且我更鼓勵說如果那個村落那個聚落是願意專門執行這個"},{"start":8994.083,"end":9013.609,"text":"龍寨計畫就完全提這個不用提其他的我都同意這個是第一個第二個就是剛才提到的就是包括因為牽扯到事主的定義就牽扯到後續的餵養的部分他的確是需要更多的這些討論達到一個共識那特別是蔡委員所關心的這些"},{"start":9015.273,"end":9038.773,"text":"沿海地區遊蕩犬現在大概15萬多隻不是16萬不過從過往的這些調查裡面它的族群數並沒有在增加那表示說TM VIVA有它的一定的成效不然以狗的自然繁殖倍率來講它可能更多但是我們應該要更努力去執行讓這些遊蕩犬找到一個收容的處所才是正辦"},{"start":9040.475,"end":9069.562,"text":"你如果把所有的遊蕩犬讓它有一個安置的家去收容的時候那我們現在看到這個現象是比較不會發生但是收容所大家都知道因為要找地很困難那民間的這些收容所我們現在也開始採用公私協力的方式雖然說有一些收容所本身因為土地的不合法或者是房舍的不合法會導致公部門不敢"},{"start":9070.382,"end":9085.282,"text":"真正的去合作但是我覺得可以撇開這個怎麼樣用公私協力的方式去處理這個收容的問題包括我們新提的這些衛星的這些收容所當你更擴大然後不會有地的問題的時候就比較容易解決"},{"start":9086.664,"end":9114.146,"text":"那剛才張雅玲 張委員所提到三個問題就是兩個計畫都已經通過了包括那個動物保護友善的那個計畫跟那個優化收容的計畫都過了那同樣的就是我們現在遇到一些收容的時候我們現在有APP那個APP就是我們現在過往我們勘災的時候有沒有看到一些災情我們拍照回來我們就利用這個轉成我們犬隻的追蹤"},{"start":9114.887,"end":9141.748,"text":"那這個APP以後可以當作一個相關的熱區的一個認定那我再次強調就是熱區的目的是希望我們投入更精準的不管是TMVR的部分或是其他的協助跟輔導的作為當作一個依據但是我們是不建議在這個階段這個時間點把它納入法的定義我們因為現在要定義就會比較"},{"start":9143.389,"end":9170.152,"text":"就是有它的明確的界線那我們實務上是用這種概念去處理我們現在的資源的投入讓它更精準化這個部分我想我先做這樣的一個說明那還是去強調就是我想市主的責任本身是一個非常重要的但是遊蕩權本身它是另外一個我們必須謹慎去處理的議題那後續我想我們必須要更努力以上"},{"start":9173.328,"end":9187.591,"text":"好 针对于第三条谢谢 部长可以做刚刚部长没有回答到我就是过去已经执行了六年那个优缺点到底是什么优点是什么 缺点是什么好了 我们请冬宝再说"},{"start":9188.827,"end":9213.829,"text":"跟委員報告那過去的執行的一個計劃我們有做了一些檢討那主要的一個起初的部分有兩個最主要的問題就是當初第一個是樂趣的劃分那樂趣的劃分以往都是由地方政府按照在地的一些狀況去劃分所以起初的一個劃分的一個標準相對不一致那到後期的部分尤其是這兩年我們把相關的一些基本的要件"},{"start":9214.349,"end":9230.428,"text":"规范上去而且把相关的资料收集回馈给地方政府去进一步去处理乐区的划分那第二个部分当初的乐区的划分是以人权冲突的乐区为主那相关的一个流量权的治理工作以这样的一个角度去进行控制"},{"start":9230.948,"end":9250.718,"text":"那最近這兩三年也擴及到大家關心的一些生態樂區的部分尤其是針對死胡草蕭這兩個特定物種的一個樂區進行更精細的一個專案的示範計畫那主要的工作有三個部分第一個源頭的管理就是家戶的一些犬隻的一個列冊跟"},{"start":9251.458,"end":9273.628,"text":"族门族户的一些绝育的一个宣导第二个在地流浪犬戍军的一些掌握以及相关的一些移除工作第三个就是加强地方的在地的喂食的等于是一些宣导就这个部分的行为去做一些积极的一些促进以上是我们这边的一个补充"},{"start":9275.225,"end":9289.804,"text":"好抱歉我還是有個問題因為我剛剛聽起來就好像是說因為過去做的不足的地方就是因為地方政府來由地方政府劃設這個定義不同所以劃設的範圍可能就會略有差異"},{"start":9291.789,"end":9311.999,"text":"那所以在接下來那個有講說那個遊蕩犬的控制人權衝突的部分也是一個關鍵的重點那我想要知道是說我們做的從108年做到現在到底有沒有因此而減少或者是怎麼樣改善嘛對吧因為你做了東西目的想要改善人權衝突"},{"start":9313.76,"end":9332.817,"text":"做这个游荡权控制到底有没有执行到那请邓保书再说明一下在这两三年你们在执行的过程到底有些点数字如何那尤其这两年的一个部分我们针对尤其刚刚提到的石虎的一些生态乐趣跟草雕生态乐趣我们有做比较全面的那一个等于是比较"},{"start":9333.317,"end":9349.726,"text":"那如果以这两年的一个结果的部分大概以犬只数量那大概我们少了大概10%到18%那在各地的区域会不太一样所以事实上积极的控制是对小区域的范围的处理是会有一些明确的一个效果以上报告"},{"start":9351.857,"end":9369.306,"text":"那針對第三條的部分不管是有建議先初步示範區或者是說以往雅琳委員所說的以往的成效她應該是不滿意所以她一直要再舉手那針對這個議題我們討論了將近50分鐘我們現在先休息5分鐘大家討論一下 謝謝"},{"start":10550.967,"end":10564.952,"text":"好 我們繼續開會那針對這個部分部長要不要再說明一下因為我們這個第三條是定義很重要而且充分發言謝謝各位委員我們也一個鐘頭以上來 請部長主席還有各位委員"},{"start":10572.438,"end":10582.206,"text":"那剛才就是我們針對第三條做了一些很多委員提出的一些一些意見那我們都非常謝謝委員提供的一個意見"},{"start":10583.171,"end":10605.67,"text":"那由於第三條本身它是牽涉到這個定義名詞定義的問題那名詞的定義會影響到後面的每一條法案相關的執行的條文的內容跟它的執行的方式所以我這邊是不是可以請求主席可以同意就是說因為裡面比較重要的兩個部分"},{"start":10606.531,"end":10629.462,"text":"就是一個是市主的一個定義那另外一個跟生態熱區有關的定義那同時我剛才也特別提到的就是我們現在有一些新的作為包括說我們因為大家都希望說遊蕩犬越來越少然後進到收容的單位這樣的話就不會產生很多餵養的問題所以我們也提出了"},{"start":10630.322,"end":10645.328,"text":"例如我剛才講的這些衛星農場本身還有很多這種所謂的利用我們農村再生的這樣子一個廣度去讓各社區提出它的一個動物保護的責任"},{"start":10645.788,"end":10664.796,"text":"那這些做法我想很多委員不是很了解裡面的內容所以是不是可以請主席給我們一點一些時間我們針對我們現在的已經在落實的做法還有委員提出來的版本能夠跟委員就是由"},{"start":10665.596,"end":10693.586,"text":"主席那邊兩個禮拜前要求我們的針對委員的這些版本我們有一些內部的一些覆案然後由這些覆案能夠跟個別的提案委員做溝通以外那更重要的是外界的利害關係人我們也希望達到有一個具體的平衡的一個共識然後大家一起往前走但是他需要時間沒有辦法在今天馬上就決定所以也肯定主席這邊能夠同意給我們多一點的時間去做這樣的一個溝通"},{"start":10696.618,"end":10714.937,"text":"好 謝謝各位同仁剛剛部長也做說明我們針對於第三條我們超過一個鐘頭的討論大家都是為整個社會的安全以及動物的權益以及"},{"start":10716.299,"end":10730.479,"text":"幫助動物的這些團體也好社會人士我們都給予非常高的一個尊敬跟尊重跟感謝因為這個是目前社會大家確實都非常重視"},{"start":10731.74,"end":10753.317,"text":"的一个议题所以经过详实的讨论我们从上一次院版还没有进来我们希望给行政部门农业部这边也针对委员所做的所提出的提案目前为止总共有42案42案42个这个版本那"},{"start":10754.81,"end":10774.556,"text":"这个农业部也针对非行政部门院版的以外的委员的版本也有提出他们的见解依照上一次会议的一个议决但是还没有时间来跟委员来做详实的沟通还没有做完整"},{"start":10775.356,"end":10803.38,"text":"所以照剛剛農業部長所提出的希望能夠有更多的時間再跟社會大眾團體也好社會共識以及各委員來做討論那也包括本席所提出的25條虐待動物的這個部分那我也要特別拜託也就是大家關心的這個議題一定要好好的去討論這個非常的重要所以是不是容許"},{"start":10803.96,"end":10832.451,"text":"刚刚我们休息时间所做出的共同的一个决议容许本席主席台在这边来宣告讨论事项所列的这个议案动物保护法部分条文修正草案因大家意见仍分期请行政部门继续与各个委员来进行沟通另定期继续审查那么本次的会议议事录授权由本席核定后确定"},{"start":10833.311,"end":10838.478,"text":"那請問各位委員有沒有異議那沒有異議我們通過現在散會 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謝謝主席我們請這個主委被提名人請阿友教授"},{"start":19.964,"end":37.419,"text":"这个我们游教授好那本席想请教您这个您应该知道现在AI时代的来临那AI的身为技术也已经成为全球民主的威胁是"},{"start":38.22,"end":65.176,"text":"那您被提名为这个中选会的主委所以今天本席的质询要为我们的民主宪政找到疫苗那我们台湾民主的选举呢绝对不能被破坏也不能被不信任台湾的民主如果被破坏那就不战而亡这点您认同吧完全赞同对所以近年来AI深维技术您"},{"start":66.636,"end":85.708,"text":"這個是不是有所觀察或者是您的了解是如何現在全球民主都受到AI身為技術的這個威脅很多國家都發生過類似的案例您有沒有一些體會或觀察的心得當然有我覺得"},{"start":87.23,"end":100.909,"text":"AI所帶來的新的時代假訊息的衝刺氾濫這是所有的民主國家必須要去面對的而且是一個挑戰也可能是一個噩夢但是應該要嚴正以待"},{"start":103.012,"end":119.245,"text":"对那现在我们的选罢法的机制大部分是事后追究责任那没有办法挡住选前特别选前24小时48小时的这种假讯息的洪水"},{"start":120.026,"end":149.024,"text":"针对这一块本系想请教您是否支持您如果就任中选会主委之后能够主动推动这个选罢法的修订应该要纳入一些预防性的条款例如强制要求一些平台他一定要标记标记我这个平台展现出来的影片或是照片图像他是AI生成的内容而且"},{"start":149.904,"end":177.687,"text":"也要賦予中選會針對經過鑑識是身為的影音或是圖像呢有權下令做緊急處置針對這一塊您的看法是我的看法是這樣中選會只是一個不到60個人的一個單位長期以來這個努力於顯霧的行政那對於這一個"},{"start":180.653,"end":197.676,"text":"當前這麼巨大的一個時代的巨變所衍生的這些問題恐怕不是中選會單獨可以承擔的當然當然所以我本席第一個主要的是說你如果擔任主委你是不是你可以推動一些修法"},{"start":198.477,"end":221.071,"text":"有法依據法令那相關單位就可以來進行那你中選會是很重要辦選務必須要公平公正甚至你要讓整個的選舉過程合乎民主程序所以您是否會主動推動選罷法的修訂納入針對現在AI身為的一些預防性條款"},{"start":221.843,"end":236.434,"text":"我覺得這是一不容辭應該這麼做但是必須要建立在這個非常好的扎實的研究的基礎上面然後才能夠提出來"},{"start":238.879,"end":264.51,"text":"當然啦但是現在很多實務上非常的需要那剛剛您也已經有稍微提到就是說整個的修法如果只靠中選會可能會遇到相關部會互踢皮球我想您大概也有預期所以本席也想請教您上任之後如何確保您跟NCC速發部的一些實質的合作"},{"start":266.433,"end":293.359,"text":"我們主觀上當然是願意的就是很多事情事實上就是跨部會必須要去共同面對的那是否願意發起跨部會的這種專案小組那來制定一套可操作的這個預防機制而不能讓我們整個民主選舉民主制度的這個防護網呢最後被破壞在中選會的職權範圍內該怎麼做"},{"start":296.124,"end":310.344,"text":"就怎么做而且要全力去做好大原则方向很好现在就说您如果就任后整个的修法如果来不及可是"},{"start":312.029,"end":339.323,"text":"馬上選舉就到了這個AI的假訊息爆發怎麼辦那中選會會不會有一些行政備案譬如說透過行政命令要求平台在選舉期間加強審核以及跟事實查核中心進行24小時的熱線等等這些問題我猜您大概還沒想過據我知道這個中選會這方面已經有一套做法"},{"start":340.364,"end":348.06,"text":"就是說上次我們才質詢我們的召委王召委也很認同的啊我不知道中選會送來了沒"},{"start":350.74,"end":369.71,"text":"我不曉得中選會送來沒有我現在是被提名人對 沒關係那您就表達您的立場我覺得就這個部分來講這個所謂身為的這些照片這些影響它是直接影響到選民跟候選人所以"},{"start":370.99,"end":387.917,"text":"中選會能夠做的大概是怎麼樣在第一時間降低他的傷害而不是根本上解決這個假訊息的問題中選會要主動積極建立這個綠色通道讓這整個能夠不受影響因為那樣的一個問題的存在是"},{"start":388.817,"end":418.1,"text":"跨政黨的噩夢不是只有哪一個特定我們不是為特定政黨這個選舉的公平公正很重要那主委所以這個AI的偽造像洪水猛獸我們希望預防勝於治療那中選會一定要主動修法不然我們的民主會淪為科技戰場的犧牲品這一塊我們希望如果您這個能夠順利擔任主委的話這個部分一定要落實而且堅持住好不好"},{"start":418.26,"end":419.023,"text":"我們嚴正以待 嚴肅以待"}]}},{"id":"167283","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167283","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d3454b63d0fd62bf1f4fe19c94b211847e2c12228464ea44cc2cb998dec49867b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"10:37:28 - 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稍微我們一位同仁請我們中選會被提名人我們的主委我們的游老師游教授"},{"start":22.692,"end":42.511,"text":"委員好首先恭喜你被提名人但是我發早上很多人的爭議還是未來在網路上的假訊息包含不再去投票這是未來你當主委你要去推動要去承擔因為過去的九二一"},{"start":44.712,"end":60.899,"text":"過去的九合一上上這就是一個亂象那亂象的話你當一個主委你整個選舉的步調以及規劃都要很妥善現在那個整個中選會在這幾年"},{"start":62.96,"end":88.971,"text":"其實我們中選會我也是很肯定因為這幾年真的改變很多 國民黨的心目中真的有徹底改變但是未來不再舉投票這事還要好好的去規劃還有在網路以境外的假信息的問題假信息的問題我認為主委你應該是一個學者出身"},{"start":89.81,"end":116.772,"text":"應該對這個問題 你要怎樣去第一時間你要怎樣去耗資 怎樣去開發 怎樣去下架這是未來你要做的 是不是主委這一點你來做說明好不好謝謝吳委員的指教假訊息特別是在網路的時代的新型是所有民主國家必須面對的巨大的挑戰"},{"start":118.055,"end":145.057,"text":"怎麼樣在假訊息衝刺之下能夠維持選務的公正性能夠讓所有的候選人還有選民都能夠獲得最好的保障這是中選會或是任何國家的選務單位必須面對的問題所以未來如果針對這個部分來說我相信中選會同仁"},{"start":147.486,"end":157.485,"text":"這方面經驗是非常豐富啦但是我們面對的是一個瞬息萬變的世界尤其是AI的時代所以"},{"start":159.076,"end":184.851,"text":"中選會怎麼樣能夠去面對這個問題中選會這個自己要有所節目但同時呢中選會是一個行政單位也需要立法院的強力的支持給予他賦予他能力賦予他資源讓他能夠應付這一個高度複雜而且充滿不確定性的年代"},{"start":187.683,"end":207.567,"text":"我們主委我們提名人真的你說這樣回答因為早過去中選會每次的選舉都是有一些網路的誤導以及境外的勢力介入但是那時候很多都是反應中選會但是中選會還是沒作為"},{"start":210.629,"end":237.463,"text":"等到要有作為已經選舉完了這對候選人是非常的不公平所以這一點我要拜託我們未來的諸位這點一定要記著雖然是說我們要確保每一個好選人他們的反應例如說第一時間的反應我們都要立即的去處理這樣不做好選人他受到這真的是不公平啦"},{"start":238.909,"end":266.29,"text":"這一點 我再請教你 你說不在一起投票這一點 我聽剛才建平委員在執行 你也是以大舉雙手贊成那未來實施的時效是什麼時候目前中山會建議是這樣就是說從公民投票開始實施"},{"start":268.438,"end":293.987,"text":"從單一的全國性公民投票開始實施之後呢那逐步的累積這方面的不在籍投票的相關的經驗降低他的弊端然後一步一步的推進到全國性的選舉包括總統立委甚至到地方的選舉這是需要一個過程一段時間"},{"start":294.967,"end":310.602,"text":"不是立刻就去做事實上中選會也沒辦法決定我們立刻就去做中選會還是要遵循立法院制定的法律然後我們才能夠去依法行政但是中選會"},{"start":312.283,"end":329.867,"text":"秉持选务机关的立场也有责任和义务提供给立法院最充分的资讯可能面对的困难是什么问题是什么我们的建议是什么我想这是中选会应该去做而且能做的"},{"start":330.762,"end":346.578,"text":"好 謝謝我們當然啦 我們中選會大家都期待嘛 要有作為嘛這是大家共同的期待以及目標嘛好 謝謝 各位行政委員那我請行政院秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":353.737,"end":358.461,"text":"委員長 委員長 現在全國 因為我看我們的媒體在報導我們的沙石的問題廢棄物的問題 現在是非常的嚴重所以說在這個部分 應該是我們在中央要跟地方政府來做協調"},{"start":375.437,"end":389.013,"text":"包含說每一管區 他們就可以設置一個掩埋場或是呢 你說停台北港 就是說每一個地方也不要說讓砂石運到各縣市 這樣就變成一個"},{"start":390.735,"end":418.761,"text":"流竄又是一個亂道的問題所以說這個博文現在應該因為現在大家都反應說都是中央規定啦什麼都推給中央這對我們中央非常的不公平所以我認為行政院應該找地方政府大家來來設置要怎樣來處理包含我們的填海照路包含我們的港口"},{"start":419.68,"end":431.02,"text":"港口旁邊很多要有我們的後櫃一些大型的工業區這都可以來推動委員跟召委可以給我差不多三分鐘來報告跟說明"},{"start":433.962,"end":463.081,"text":"稍微這個事情可以用三方面來跟大家報告第一GPS的部分現在中央的政策是你可以用中央無關系來進步或是環境部的GPS這可以進入第二有很多地方原本就有用GPS無關系手機或是車機都可以進入我們用GPS雙軌制的方式讓能夠載運沙石土方的車子能夠上路去載這是第一部分第二部分剛才委員"},{"start":464.062,"end":473.792,"text":"在找尋的戰智場的部分 現在中央加密集在跟地方開會在協調 中央會找從北到南 八個戰智場"},{"start":475.563,"end":499.924,"text":"包括台北港台中港張濱工業區台南有一部分那高雄這邊也有這個南興計畫的土地我們中央找八個站置場希望地方也能夠進來這個協助管理車可以走 也是有地方可以走這是第二部分 第三部分是就簡正便民的部分啦以前是這個"},{"start":503.686,"end":517,"text":"土方出來 要先經過土資廠再到最終處置廠 但是土方有些依照法規 它是有加料 現在可以從這個出廠直接到最終處理廠 又或者是在台中經過分析70%的部分是可以"},{"start":521.484,"end":548.258,"text":"也能夠就地來做合法的交易我們從這三個面向來做 還需要一些時間中央可以跟地方做的合作 公共工程也好各種私人的工程也好 能夠在合乎法律的規定之下讓土方的全流向的管制 穩健的上路還需要一點時間 中央地方會合作政府民間也會一起合作 依從委員報告"},{"start":550.179,"end":573.115,"text":"好 謝謝你說一些可再利用的這種的大家都不要說一味的全部都規定的實施的這樣我就去解決他們的問題不然現在很多你說每次我們土匪都在推動建設包括公共工程現在也是土方沒有武器處這一點就是他們都來帶我們陳情所以說我今天 祕書長你有來特別幫你提起"},{"start":578.873,"end":581.399,"text":"好 謝謝有什麼歡迎再麻煩委員跟行政院來講 我們會繼續拍片 謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳啟明"}]}},{"id":"17231","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17231","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcd3a2b43aa665e4072379e2494b6cb8b9e692bdb9a1e479778525782d1550b3805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會（事由：「政務人員權利義務法制化」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-28","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-28T08:34:00+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-28T12:12:00+08:00","duration":13080,"影片長度":"03:38:00","委員發言時間":"08:34:00 - 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其他建議事項宣讀完畢"},{"start":1960.543,"end":1982.1,"text":"好 那麼在邀請各位發言之前 新舊公聽會的程序進行說明首先我們會請專家學者先發言 那發言的順序就依照簽到的先後順序那麼本院委員按照登記先後順序來發言那麼如果陸續到場的話 那本席也會穿插安排請委員發言"},{"start":1983.061,"end":2008.508,"text":"原則上就會在兩位專家學者發言之後穿插一位委員發言但是如果發言登記的委員人數比較多的時候就會在上午10點那麼則於上午10點30分以後登記的委員安排在所有專家學者發言完畢之後再按照登記順序發言那麼如果需要協調提前發言就先請告知主席台我們再次情況著雨調整"},{"start":2011.72,"end":2013.323,"text":"首先我們就先請政府機關"},{"start":2015.856,"end":2041.096,"text":"首先我們請政府機關代表發言但是今天政府機關代表基本上應該沒有要發言都是提了書面報告好那接下來我們就針對專家學者以及委員的意見會加以回應然後與會者就先請到發言台發言在主席的右手邊為專家學者列席機關代表的發言台左手邊是為委員的發言台由於公聽會主要是在聽取專家學者的"},{"start":2041.716,"end":2057.005,"text":"借意見 所以每位專家學者發言時間為10分鐘本院委員發言的時間為5分鐘好 那麼現在我們就請專家學者們發言首先我們就先請第一位的高士南副總會長發言"},{"start":2078.317,"end":2101.137,"text":"翁委員 在座的各級官代表以及各位學者先進 笨鳥先飛我是中華民國公家軍營銷聯合總會高士南在座有很多都是我老師輩的學者所以在這裡我們就獻醜了"},{"start":2103.225,"end":2122.651,"text":"今天就政務人員權利義務的一個法制我很榮幸受邀來做一個報告我今天沒有打算就很細節的去做一個說明請就提綱的重要的部分做一個大的一個綱要性的方向的指引"},{"start":2125.359,"end":2152.185,"text":"我想對政務人員法這個定法的這個專法的這個有沒有這個必要性我個人是肯定的那我是基於兩個論據第一個我想近代的公共組織公共治理公法都強調一個公共性的一個價值的一個核心理念那它主要是期待所有的從事公共事務或者公共服務的作為一個公共的信託人都應該對國家忠誠"},{"start":2154.349,"end":2177.63,"text":"都應該要恪守這個憲法 遵守法制都應該要追求公共利益及社會正義要回應公眾的集體需求並創造福祉所以在這樣的要求下所有的公務員都應該要有一定的行為規範不管是政務官 常務官那僅僅是因為他們的職務角色的不同要律定不同的一個規範而已"},{"start":2179.674,"end":2204.661,"text":"再來就政務人員來講我們一般學理上就稱為政務官是以常務官相對的我想這個兩者的區別我們都是政治學上的ABC不用在這裡做說明政務人員主要是政治任命的一個人員負責政策的制定和政策的一個責任隨著政黨的輪替或者是政策的變更來做去留"},{"start":2205.541,"end":2232.072,"text":"所以他是廣義的公務員也是所謂公職人員的一部分那依照大法官過去的解釋他說是依照法令從事於公務的人員所以既然依照法令從事公務除了政務官跟常務官不同負有政治責任之外他也負有法律的責任我們就可以從公務員懲戒法的規定就可以了解到這一點所以他的權利義務我們主張應該有一個專法來規定"},{"start":2234.506,"end":2258.079,"text":"來已知明確就第一個提綱的第一個部分也跟第三個提綱這個有關係的部分就是說應該受規範的中央級跟地方級的人員的範疇是在怎樣的一個範定內會比較適當我們目前並沒有這個真無人員的專法"},{"start":2259.264,"end":2274.57,"text":"那各個法令都擅見在這個相關的法令當中那僅有制定所謂的政務人員退職撫恤條例那我們如果就這個條例第二條的規定來看它總共包括了"},{"start":2276.511,"end":2299.86,"text":"五項的這個政務人員包括依憲法規定有總統任命的人員依憲法規定有總統提名經濟法院同意的人員依憲法規定有行政院提請總統任命的人員還有前三款以外的特任特派人員第五種就是其他依法律規定的中央或地方的這個比較12等以上職務的人員"},{"start":2300.987,"end":2329.978,"text":"所以我們依照這個規定來看呢我們已經可以了解到其實他已經跳脫了這個學理上政務官的範疇也就是呢他把一些這個有固定任期獨立行使職權不必隨著政黨政策更迭的這些公職政務人員也就是我們這裡所提到的總統提名經濟法院同意的任命人員也都包括在裡面的"},{"start":2330.658,"end":2359.014,"text":"那比如說司法院考試院的政府院長大法官考試委員監察委員或者是這個行政院下的中選會公平會 國際選舉委員都包括在這裡面那其實是跟學理上是不太合理的那另外呢 它也依照這個條文跟地方制度法規定把地方政府"},{"start":2361.277,"end":2388.153,"text":"民選首長所任命的副主任副市長副縣市長以及機關單位的首長也屬於政務方的範圍那這也跟西方國家政務官的這個這個政務官是現與中央官員的概念是不一樣的所以我們今天這個剛好這個提綱的提問我們就要這裡做一個說明就是有關政務人員範圍的確定其實他是屬於這個"},{"start":2391.386,"end":2403.237,"text":"立法政策的一個問題那如果沒有審慎的規範未來也會面臨自私欲分的這樣一個問題所以我個人認為如果要制定政務人員的專法"},{"start":2405.188,"end":2425.598,"text":"應該要排除固定任期獨立行政職權不隨政黨這些公職人員回歸到各該職務的行為法比如法官法我們剛所提到那個獨立任命的人員裡面像大法官 像各法院的法官工程會的委員長"},{"start":2426.758,"end":2441.975,"text":"委員長等等他們就是在這個法官府裡面做規範但是呢除了這個選擇之外呢或者我們也可以在專法裡面認定專章把這些有固定任期跟這個獨立性的職權的人另做一個規範"},{"start":2443.456,"end":2469.042,"text":"那另外呢地方自治團體的這些我們剛剛提到的這些首長他們是辦理地方自治的人員並不是國家的政務那也可以考量予以刪除那不過呢又或者我們如果考量到我國公務員法制呢其實沒有把中央跟地方的公務員做一個區分都是用一條邊的法制"},{"start":2469.722,"end":2481.773,"text":"而且考量到地方政治也受到政黨政治的波及所以我們如果把它納入到政務人員的範疇或者也可以成為我國政務法的一個特色再來就這個"},{"start":2487.932,"end":2503.226,"text":"我們如果考量到說對提問裡面所謂的固定任期具有獨立機關人員的話我這裡舉出最具有代表性的美國的獨立機關人員的行為規範作為範例美國獨立機關的人員的行為專業規範主要在確保"},{"start":2513.737,"end":2524.233,"text":"所謂的專業中立超越黨派跟防止第一的衝突它包括了五大部分主要是在政治中立方面它主要是"},{"start":2526.516,"end":2542.779,"text":"必須超越黨派之外然後呢禁止在工作期間參與黨派的活動然後呢獨立性的要求呢還有任期保護的部分呢為有固定的任期獨立行使之權他是不受到這個其他機關的指揮"},{"start":2544.178,"end":2562.799,"text":"那除了一些特定的重大的無效能代乎職責獨職等正當理由之外總統是不能任意免職的那另外在這個道德規範利益衝突方面呢他受到這個聯邦公務人員倫理法的規範他也必須遵守公務員的道德行為"},{"start":2563.78,"end":2590.906,"text":"那黨派平衡的部分是比較特別的就委員會成員不能由單一政黨來控制通常由跨黨派組成或超越黨派的這樣的規定那另外就是處罰執行機制方面委員如果違反行政論理那可能由這個特別檢察官提起據例處分的訴訟並由聯邦公機制保護委員會來審理那如果依照這樣的一個參據呢"},{"start":2593.686,"end":2621.769,"text":"我們這裡提綱像在第三個提綱相關連的部分所提問的就固定任期獨立薪水資源人員跟一般公務人員的行為規範它最大的區別就是這裡提問的應該就是在所謂的政治中立跟免職任期保障的部分如果我們把現在的公務人員的中立法作為一個參考的準據的話"},{"start":2622.935,"end":2648.85,"text":"我們把它拉進來剛好是一般政務人員公務員跟所謂的獨立機關的人員它成了一個光譜由寬鬆到嚴格政務人員依照政治考量的進退依照政治理念的政治黨政治的理念他當然可以參加政黨活動和一些助選活動但他仍然不得利用職權或者行政資源來影響政黨政治和競選活動"},{"start":2650.852,"end":2666.967,"text":"但是對這個有固定任期的獨立這個機關的政務人員他參加政黨活動或者任何的公職院候選主任活動的政治活動都要受到嚴格的限制然後常任文官剛好借助在這個中間現行法的一個規範"},{"start":2668.268,"end":2684.098,"text":"那對獨立薪酬職權的這些政務院呢既然已經隔離在這個政治之外呢他免職的理由主要就是限於像美國一樣重大的這些無效能代護職者或者是這個獨職的功能這個部分就法律事務的一個部分"},{"start":2685.298,"end":2706.168,"text":"以上是我就這個裡面提問最重點的部分做一個重要的說明至於說主管機關的話我們還是主張未來政務人員法由考試院來主管成績的部分依照憲憲法規定由司法院來負責修正經驗請看到我的書面最後我特別要強調的一點就是"},{"start":2707.368,"end":2733.687,"text":"我想美國的公共心理學者曾經提出一個宇宙心腸的說明就是制限難 但形現更難所以 《政治法》有專法制定的必要可以規範《政治法》肅清政風 釐清勵志我們贊成它應該有這樣的法但是這樣的一個具有高度政治性的法律制定法律固然重要但是落實執行我們認為才是真正的考驗"},{"start":2734.808,"end":2762.84,"text":"他也是要考驗我們未來民主法治品質的重要的關鍵那我們為什麼這樣講就站在公教俊銷總會的一個副會長兼過去年改小組召集人我們看到我們現在年改的法案這個已經通過了但是我們在場有考試院有我們權敘部的同仁但是考試院權敘部卻拖延執行"},{"start":2763.44,"end":2792.211,"text":"那最警消的部分是拒不执行那我们看到现在这样的很多的乱象都是因为我们没有一部真正的有规范的一个政务人员法所以我们在这里要与众心肠的在强调就是说制定这样的法固然有需要但是我们还需要期许我们所有的政务人员未来有这样的法之后能够恪守这样的一个法治那这样才是我们能够增进我们民主品质最重要的一个关键谢谢"},{"start":2794.827,"end":2799.499,"text":"好 謝謝高副會長接下來我們就請蔣貴美老師發言"},{"start":2807.16,"end":2827.693,"text":"主席黃委員雖然剩沒幾天但是你的粉絲會很傷心各位先進大家好我時間有限所以我想馬上切入重點我覺得政務人員法早就該定了因為我們一直把政務官事務官化"},{"start":2828.872,"end":2851.121,"text":"這是國內長久以來的問題有些政務人員他可以做個十幾年我不知道為什麼我自己出身保訓會可是保訓會的委員就有超過十年了我的意思是說我們政務人員理論上他是對政黨負責所以政黨負責的定義是什麼他不能離開民意太久"},{"start":2851.821,"end":2864.626,"text":"所以政務人員不管你是特別職特別職 大法官 考委 監委這個都是特別職我們叫special position這種特別職他有專業限制但是不表示他可以跟民意脫鉤他照樣要經過國會"},{"start":2867.447,"end":2891.69,"text":"所以我們的政務人員在中央有四級四級裡面三級在蔡政府的時代第三級開放了政務所以我覺得不管你是一級 二級 三級的政務都要經過立法院這是最基本的一個民意政治的道理至於特別職的部分就是我們剛剛說有專業限制的他也不能回民意監督"},{"start":2892.884,"end":2900.55,"text":"那所以呢 既然不能迴避民意監督我會認為特別值得一定要有連任的限制"},{"start":2902.358,"end":2928.857,"text":"或者他只能一任他別無借據我甚至認為監委也只能一任別無借據當你心中有職位的時候你絕對不會把政務當成你是對選民的承諾你會把政務當成一個職位這樣是不對的所以這是一個非常重要的政務的基本定義我們不能背離民意同時我們在實務上已經發生了很多問題"},{"start":2932.543,"end":2939.275,"text":"這個請問監察院有好朋友在座但是現在大家都很難承認是我的好朋友我們一事歸一事陳菊院長為什麼可以請假這麼久"},{"start":2944.141,"end":2970.036,"text":"我看到过去的同仁非常辛苦的在解释怎么会用事务官请假规则呢那个很清楚那个请假规则是公务人员请假规则他定的是事务官所以当然要有政务人员专法来处理所以政务人员专法本来就不该延宕因为我们把政务官事务官化了所以才会弄得逻辑不清"},{"start":2971.226,"end":2990.016,"text":"那所以呢當我們要面對這個專法的時候第一個要思考什麼問題你知道政委員涉及到多少法我在書面一件第一段提到的是法務部相關的夜館法務部裡面有財生有什麼有利衝利益衝突迴避"},{"start":2990.976,"end":3011.578,"text":"程序法是不是法務部的事程序法裡面過去我們在監察院最常用到的是47條做程序外的接觸而且還彈劾過很多人他是做程序外的接觸好那法務部也非常奇怪為什麼財深利充是法務部的夜館執行放到監察院"},{"start":3013.069,"end":3030.874,"text":"我很少看到夜館跟執行是拆開的但是法務部比較大它長期是這樣我去監察院的第一天就發現這個問題後來大法官7、8、6號做了一個解釋說什麼所以那個裁法要符合罪責相當啊責罰相當的原則"},{"start":3034.963,"end":3055.018,"text":"那我們在監察院很早就發現了管你怎麼樣的為師情節輕重都不論從一百萬起跳這是有問題的可是那個條文是誰訂的是法務部訂的他根本不瞭你啊一直到七八六號出現被大法官打了一巴掌才改啊所以這個執行跟決策"},{"start":3056.192,"end":3072.411,"text":"根本拆开的逻辑是错误的所以我们更需要专法来统一统筹它的权责那至于全序部业管的全序部业管的譬如说像公务员服务法我们在很多法里面用词是不一定的"},{"start":3073.902,"end":3080.705,"text":"這個群衆部的公務員服務法裡面 它指的是公務員公務員有沒有包含證物 當然有 第二條裡面就包含證物所有分級的文物之公務人員 當然包含證物但他用的是什麼 他用的是這個公務員他用的不是證物 但他當然包含證物甚至包含法務部的公職人員的立充有沒有包含證物 當然有 但他用的是公職人員"},{"start":3098.571,"end":3119.727,"text":"所以我們有的用公職員有的用公務員有的用政府人員各種法各定其事因為它是不同時間出來的所以各定其事也就罷了但是它的權責不同各自規範所以專法實在太有必要了我們在公務員服務法裡面公務員不得經營商業"},{"start":3121.599,"end":3146.529,"text":"不在經營商業 你要怎麼去納入規範這裡面有沒有包含證物 當然有證物跟事物呢 一體適用它的標準怎麼會一樣我們對證物是應該要有更嚴格的門檻因為證物是對老百姓負責的基本上它必須明確化那另外呢 譬如說我們在這個全序部業館的我們還有一個行政中立法"},{"start":3148.274,"end":3176.161,"text":"我在看到我們三個版本裡面將來一定會統一變成一個版本很多委員都會把行政中立放進去可是行政中立法呢憑良心說它規範的是事務官當初最早在民國九十幾年的時候那時候好像還在考試院這個整個的草案過程呢我記得非常清楚當時有個立委叫黃爾璇那很早以前的立委他是主張政治中立法他周強森委員那時候也是立委"},{"start":3177.145,"end":3194.615,"text":"他主張政治中立法所以那個政治中立那個名詞到現在行政中立法第一條還在裡頭可是下面講的是行政中立第一條講的是政治中立那為什麼因為最早的時候希望把政務官拿進來因為事務官不中立那是黑手都叫政務官都是政務人員"},{"start":3196.186,"end":3220.601,"text":"那可是這一塊呢 行政重力法沒有放進來後來把它全部踢掉了那你介入事務官的升遷轉調人事重大的用機要來處理等等一大堆的門道那這個要在哪裡處理你是不是要回到政府人員專法去處理那而且還有一個非常重要的問題我覺得將來三個版本可能可以考慮納入的部分就是說我們另外還有一個政黨法"},{"start":3222.048,"end":3239.686,"text":"政黨法是規範誰的規範政黨但是我們絕對不能忽略我們歷任的總統幾乎都是黨主席耶一個人在公職上我叫總統回到黨裡我叫黨主席那這是台灣長期來的特色但是時代不同了我們要面對這個問題"},{"start":3241.636,"end":3253.963,"text":"那今天反對黨因為沒有執政但反對黨已經看得出他黨主席不見得是將來當選的這個最後的leader那所以這個趨勢已經慢慢浮現了所以我們是不是要面對這個問題也就是說政黨法裡面規範的是什麼是政黨的角色但是我們把它跟政務員一刀切開了所以政務員回答政黨他可以為所欲為對他的黨變成全國這不對的"},{"start":3270.391,"end":3277.874,"text":"這政務人員法要把它放進去我們要避免的是什麼不是他行政中不中立所有的政務人員都在輔選除了法務部啊 國防部長全部都在輔選他中立什麼我們要規範的是什麼黨政分離不能把國家的資源搬去他的政黨那這個要納入政務人員法裡面去處理那這一塊沒有看到我覺得這個勢必還是要考慮進來的那另外呢我們剛剛講過"},{"start":3301.683,"end":3303.805,"text":"特別職呢 他是對專業負責那既然對專業負責 他有專業門檻"},{"start":3308.508,"end":3319.053,"text":"但是特別職的定義是什麼它不是只有中立它包含了專業上的獨立如果特別職你不能回歸專業你只想到你的政黨我覺得他可能就必須對他的職務要負責這個負責是什麼這個負責就是我們那個大綱裡面提到的所謂的免職如果他堅持也不辭職然後你要糾纏他這個糾纏"},{"start":3335.02,"end":3343.367,"text":"全縣也只有監察院有但監察院憑良心說從我109年離開以後到現在的發展趨勢在慢慢轉變中它轉變成似乎只有人權委員會似乎只有人權上的協調提報告那但是專業系你趕得上大學教授嗎那但是你的監督按大幅減少你的彈劾按糾正按大幅減少你的角色在轉變"},{"start":3361.201,"end":3384.156,"text":"所以我們裡面一直說這個制裁是不是回歸監察院我是遲疑的因為功能性必須要凸顯出來所以不如定在政務人員法來處理那賦予他懲處或懲戒那懲戒當然是移送司法機關但是懲處的話事實上主管長官就可以處理"},{"start":3385.197,"end":3397.902,"text":"那所以呢我們在最後因為時間很有限其他看書面那我覺得呢政務人員的權利因為這個公聽會的title裡面有談到一個right權利事項那但是我覺得三個版本沒有處理權利我也覺得不需要處理為什麼呢因為諷刺的部分我們過去一個諷刺條例草案在民國98年就有提出後來pending掉了"},{"start":3413.408,"end":3418.035,"text":"那我覺得那一塊就回到目前的相關法令也許就專門處理政務官的責任或義務那這樣這個法條明確的話會更具體一些好 謝謝"},{"start":3427.095,"end":3446.488,"text":"好 謝謝張老師的發言那接下來我再補充介紹剛剛到場的專家學者和委員首先先介紹我們今天的現場的委員有黃國昌委員還有羅志強委員黃國昌委員這個下來就是我們立法院第一名這個最認真最負責的即便是他剩下兩天開會的時間對不對但是今天還是"},{"start":3450.351,"end":3470.259,"text":"出席我們的公聽會 待會兒也會發言非常感謝他接下來還有兩位專家學者剛剛到場的一個是彭錦鵬 彭教授另一位是政治大學公務行政系的江明修 江教授謝謝接下來我們就繼續有請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":3483.494,"end":3508.195,"text":"非常感謝今天這麼多與會的學者專家還有法界政界的先進到立法院針對政務人員權利義務法制化的公定會提供寶貴的意見我相信大家都非常的清楚政務人員法制化這完全不是一個新的議題這是早就該做拖延到今天遲遲不做的一個問題"},{"start":3510.377,"end":3538.475,"text":"這個早就該做拖延到今天遲遲不做的問題背後結構性的因素我相信大家也都很了解過去曾經高深倡議過政務人員應該要法治化等到自己掌握權力了以後完全不想要受任何的規範完全不想要受任何的規範開始提一些莫名其妙牽托的理由想要阻礙"},{"start":3539.997,"end":3564.889,"text":"搞到最後連這個主管機關到底是行政院還是考試院喬不定都可以成為阻礙這部法律立法的理由我相信在立法院久了就知道要反對一個法案從來都不是直接表示反對要反對一個法案只要找到裡面幾個"},{"start":3566.471,"end":3593.917,"text":"事情說還要再討論還要再研議就永無止計的延宕下去政務人員法治化正是其中一個非常典型的例子政務人員沒有法治化他會產生什麼荒謬的現象他會產生荒謬的現象是即使是五院的院長請假超過一年"},{"start":3595.599,"end":3622.038,"text":"請假超過一年也沒有關係這是什麼荒謬的法治我在事發法治委員會針對這件事情提出質詢的時候因為政務人員沒有法治的話去適用一般有身份保障有身份保障一般公務員的請假規則這是可笑至極"},{"start":3623.902,"end":3640.621,"text":"按照我們公務人員請假規則因為疾病需要治療 需要休養我們將心比心都可以認同可以請病假每年28天那但是呢"},{"start":3641.69,"end":3663.127,"text":"如果是重大疾病的話依照規定核給的病假 試假 休假 補假全部休完了以後長官可以核准延長病假其期間兩年內合併計算不得超過一年對於有身份保障的事務官在遇到重大疾病的時候給予這樣的保障我個人是認同的"},{"start":3664.209,"end":3683.418,"text":"但是這個規定你把它硬套到政務人員身上特別是院長級部長級的身上你就知道這件事情有多荒謬你要用公務人員請教規則那我第一個問題想要請教的是請問監察院院長的長官是誰是哪一位長官"},{"start":3690.287,"end":3707.922,"text":"特別核准可以請延長病假兩年內合併不得超過一年這個長官存在嗎這個長官存在嗎如果這個長官存在真的要用這個請假規則的話請問這個長官就所何止是來欽德總統嗎還是因為請假的是院長因為是院長位高權重"},{"start":3717.597,"end":3742.844,"text":"下面的公務人員即使看了搖頭也沒有辦法也沒有辦法只能讓他照這個荒謬的規定這個荒謬的規定我上一次請監察院函附按照他們依照所謂的公務人員請假規則到底可以請假到什麼時候監察院給我的公文完全不敢回覆"},{"start":3743.973,"end":3768.292,"text":"完全不敢回覆這個具體的問題用抽象的文字想要遮掩很多殘酷的事實什麼叫做用抽象的文字要遮掩殘酷的事實依照監察院的函附抽象的文字我套用法規以及日曆算出來的我跟大家報告一下陳菊從2024年12月底開始請假"},{"start":3771.846,"end":3790.173,"text":"2025年有250個工作日依照監察院含附的內容陳菊院長每年可以請28天的病假7天的試假30天的休假我相信這個假期所有全國的勞工看了都非常的羨慕"},{"start":3791.277,"end":3816.752,"text":"也就是在250個工作天裡面他可以請完65天250個工作天裡面我講的是工作天我講的是工作天不是日曆日250個工作天他可以請65天的假日他請完65天以後再請延長病假"},{"start":3817.938,"end":3846.179,"text":"所以扣掉265扣掉65他只需要請185天的延長病假兩年內合併的延長病假請不可以超過一年所以到2026年也就是今年245個工作天他可以再請65天的假日再請65天的假日扣掉了以後他可以再請180天的延長病假"},{"start":3847.096,"end":3873.722,"text":"我跟大家報告他延長病假不用用滿他任期就借滿他任期就借滿那代表什麼意思呢代表按照我國現行的法制一個監察院院長沒有辦法在院長的職位上面履行他工作的職責可以一直請假一直請假請假到他任期借滿為止都沒有關係"},{"start":3875.888,"end":3900.437,"text":"在我國目前的法治狀態下面是合法的我們是法律人依法論法是合法的但我相信全國的人民會想要問一個問題為什麼這樣會是合法的這是什麼法治狀態這是什麼落後的法治狀態搞到這麼離譜的事情竟然是合法的"},{"start":3902.734,"end":3922.645,"text":"這是中華民國走到2026年的法治水準嗎回到2012年考試院行政院所提出的政務人員法草案裡面規範的就很清楚因健康或其他原因難以執行職權者 拜託"},{"start":3928.325,"end":3955.805,"text":"這個職務就換這個職務就換有能力履行這個職務的人來做了這只是一個簡單的例子凸顯出來目前為什麼要推動要完成這個政務人員法我剛剛在動詞的時候啊除了推動我還加完成兩個字啊因為我希望這一屆的國會不要再只是推動"},{"start":3957.898,"end":3979.923,"text":"推動了十幾年原地踏步一事無成造成了荒謬的法治狀態束手無策政務人員負政治責任跟一般文官的中立性質不同我相信"},{"start":3981.261,"end":4010.16,"text":"這是公民的ABC不需要多談但是即使是政務人員還是有一條紅線你沒有辦法跨過而那條紅線就是在政務人員法裡面要好好規範的事項即使是一個政務人員可以在他上班的時間在社群媒體上鼓吹無差別的對在野黨的立委發動大罷免嗎"},{"start":4013.786,"end":4040.511,"text":"這是在我國目前的民主法治下可以容許政務人員做的事嗎拿納稅人的錢在你的位置上期待你的是你負起責任把你的事情做好而不是拿納稅人的錢上班的時間在自己的辦公室"},{"start":4043.866,"end":4069.521,"text":"進行政治鬥爭這是台灣這一兩年可能我們過去從來沒有想像過荒腔走板的行徑走到2026年我希望這部法律案不要再拖下去了"},{"start":4070.677,"end":4099.907,"text":"不要再拖下去了能夠在這一屆的國會啊完成立法最後再次的感謝今天與會的學者專家波榮來立法院提供各位寶貴的意見各位寶貴的意見在立法院公報上面的登載都會成為接下來立法委員在修正法律的時候重要的參酌謝謝那有請陳朝健前副主委"},{"start":4102.371,"end":4102.476,"text":"谢谢"},{"start":4112.816,"end":4135.652,"text":"主席在場各位委員我們機關代表還有各位專家學者以及媒體先進大家早安大家好今天本人應邀來到這個立法院就政務人員權利義務法制化公聽會的議題來表示意見那我就按照"},{"start":4136.592,"end":4153.242,"text":"這一個貴單位給我的討論提綱的次序依次來做說明在討論提綱裡頭第一個提到的一個問題是政務人員的專法是不是有必要這個予以立法"},{"start":4154.002,"end":4169.091,"text":"就必要性而言它的必要程度比较低也就是说现阶段并没有这一个立砖法的一个必要那倘若要这一个立砖法的话恐怕比较适合用"},{"start":4169.711,"end":4194.92,"text":"基尊法的一個形式來出現規範的一個對象包括中央的政務人員也應該要給予地方的政務人員但是必須排除三類的人員一類是獨立機關的成員不論是憲法上的獨立機關也就是總統提名"},{"start":4196.781,"end":4221.642,"text":"立法院同意任命之人員第二類是這個經行政院這個提名立法院同意的政務人員這是屬於獨立機關的這個部分有兩小類那第二類呢是有任期保障的這個人員像我們檢查總長審計長這些他是有憲法上有法律上的一個任期保障"},{"start":4222.711,"end":4248.672,"text":"那他們也應該要這個排除在外那第三類呢是有關民選的這個首長他也應該要這個排除在外那主要的一個原因是因為我們現有的地方制度法第84條他規定了民選的直轄市長縣市長鄉鎮市長那他是准用政務人員的一個懲戒"},{"start":4249.352,"end":4258.805,"text":"可是他也要適用公務員服務法他已經有相關的規定存在所以允排除在外換句話說"},{"start":4262.475,"end":4280.15,"text":"立法院此次委員會所召開的第一個這個議題這個來說制定專法的一個必要性目前是不高的必要性是比較低的那如果真的要這個立法以低密度的基準法的一個形式來做規範"},{"start":4281.331,"end":4302.311,"text":"那倘若是用基準法的一個形式來做規範的話那相關的一個這個具體的規定以及法則的這個部分應該要回到各該這個法律這個比較這個適合這個我待會會就這個幾位委員所提的一個版本來做這個補充說明"},{"start":4303.82,"end":4328.193,"text":"那貴委員會所提的第二個這個討論提綱是假設有政務人員專法的話那他的主管機關應該是誰裁罰機關到底又應該是誰那這個部分呢我就先說明一下我自己的經驗那各位這一個想想看各位聽過一部法律叫做政治獻金法吧"},{"start":4329.233,"end":4349.286,"text":"政治獻金法就是在規範你參選人還有政黨他們如何在一定的期間來收受這個政治獻金有相關的一個規定那政治獻金法的法律主管機關是內政部"},{"start":4350.006,"end":4374.558,"text":"政治獻金法的執行機關跟裁罰機關是監察院但是政治獻金法的相關問題在我擔任中央選舉委員會副主任委員兼機關發言人的時候我是最常被問到政治獻金法的大家都以為中選會是政治獻金法的主管機關"},{"start":4375.979,"end":4391.557,"text":"其实不是我们国家对于很多的一个法律它的一个规定包括主管机关包括执行机关有时候有它的一个历史渊源有时候有它分工合作的必要性"},{"start":4392.137,"end":4413.407,"text":"跟這個經驗傳承還有人力組織功能等配置考量會有組織功能最適化的這個結果所以我們應該可以尊重這樣的一個安排不用堅持主管機關跟裁罰機關執行機關等等等必須為同一機關"},{"start":4416.408,"end":4424.753,"text":"那這個是這個我提出來的這個見解那同樣的這個道理如果是以我個人的這個經驗這個來說我前一任的這個職務是擔任中選會副主委"},{"start":4431.417,"end":4455.688,"text":"那各位可能會以為總統選罷法跟公職選罷法的法律主管機關是中選會其實也不是法律的這個主管機關不論是總統選罷法或者是公職選罷法它的這個主管機關都是內政部那中選會作為獨立機關它是散開兩部法律的一個執行這個機關"},{"start":4458.649,"end":4485.81,"text":"各該條文裏頭的裁罰是由有權機關來進行法定事項的處理都有它的規範所以回到主辦單位所提的假設有政務人員專法它的主管機關到底是要定考試院還是人事總處裁罰機關是要監察院還是其他機關"},{"start":4487.231,"end":4516.451,"text":"對於這個部分我沒有個人的堅持意見但是我相信如果有專法的話有基準法的話應該要有機關協調安排相關的主管機關跟執行機關這部分我們尊重行政機關的分工合作因為前提在於政務人員專法它制定了一個必要性就現階段而言並不高"},{"start":4517.613,"end":4521.482,"text":"第三個 討論提綱也是由主辦單位提出來的"},{"start":4525.327,"end":4548.844,"text":"政務人員的一個忠誠義務查核義務禁止行為免職規定等修正建議是不是有一些個人的意見可以來提供給大家那我順道補充一下剛剛有關專家學者或者是委員的發言有一些內容可以做一些適切的補充"},{"start":4550.845,"end":4568.002,"text":"在我們這個國家公元2000年以前政務年資不中斷我是指政務年資不中斷那可以超過10年20年的確實是比比皆是那公元2000年這一個之後呢"},{"start":4568.683,"end":4589.126,"text":"那政務年資不中斷不論是中央地方的政務年資合計能夠超過十年的其實是非常非常的少那本人是填為其中之一那做這樣的一個發言好像會涉及到我個人的一個權利義務但是我認為"},{"start":4590.787,"end":4608.701,"text":"這個按照這個大法官四字601號解釋的一個精神如果有人問我政務官的一個權益義務應該做什麼樣的一個保障時我認為窮盡義務迴避義務如果無法達到迴避的一個目的那我應該要把我的良心的看法"},{"start":4609.941,"end":4627.67,"text":"這個來告訴這個外界讓大家這個來參酌我認為現階段相關的一個法律都已經有做規範了如果我們在這個做規範可能會有一些新的這個法律漏洞這個在法律競合狀態之下來出現"},{"start":4628.59,"end":4655.64,"text":"因為我們政務官這個現在適用的相關的這個法律相當的繁多包括公務人員行政中立法也就是各位所稱的政治中立的這個部分包括公務員這個服務法含各位這個剛剛所提到的公務員請假規則的這個部分那包括政務人員有自己的這個專屬的一個法律叫做政務人員退休撫恤這個條例"},{"start":4657.08,"end":4684.898,"text":"但是要跟各位報告的是政務人員的這個權利義務就權利而言並沒有各位想像的那麼好以我為例絕對不會有月退不會有月退即使我的政務年資合計不中斷超過11年那第二個是以我的權利假如就退休撫恤而言並不多是非常非常微薄的一次退"},{"start":4685.518,"end":4706.735,"text":"但是政務官他之所以擔任政務官是因為以政治為職業以政治為志業這是政治哲學家韋伯的一個名言如果再請我回任政務官我還是會回任這個政務官因為政務官這個在從事政務的一個推動是為國家為設計為人民來做事"},{"start":4709.977,"end":4728.954,"text":"最後如果要制定相關法律有關的論點建議再多多聆聽各界的聲音以上 謝謝我們請劉益中律師"},{"start":4744.617,"end":4768.497,"text":"主席 各位機關的長官各位在座的學者專家們 大家好我是劉益中律師今天很榮幸受立法院指邀來針對政務人員的相關專法訂定提供一些我自己比較粗淺的意見在座各位的專家學者都是我的老師所以就學理的部分就是政務人員"},{"start":4770.012,"end":4798.214,"text":"一些學歷政務人員跟例如說廣義政務人員跟政務官它的一個差別這些東西基本上在書面報告以及各位前面的一些先進的學者專家都已經說明過了因為我本身是一個職業律師所以我比較想要從條文的角度以及法條的訂定的角度還有實務運用的角度去看說這一次的相關的草案因為這次主要有兩個草案一個是政務人員行為基準法草案"},{"start":4799.135,"end":4799.618,"text":"主要是有13..."},{"start":4802.104,"end":4829.658,"text":"13條的政務人員行為基準法的草案以及第二個是政務人員法草案然後政務人員法草案這個就是翁委員等18人理據的政務人員法草案主要有這兩部草案然後去訂定這個政務人員專法我想要比較從草案的角度去論述說去論述這個提綱也就是說有沒有這個訂定的必要或是這個訂定上或執行上可能會產生什麼樣的困難可能產生什麼樣的困難"},{"start":4830.918,"end":4852.891,"text":"首先就政務人員行為基準法草案也就是說總共有13條草案條文這個草案其實前面兩條文是相關的立法目的以及相關的適用對象這個適用對象包含了要立法院同意任命的一個我們所謂的學理上叫做廣義政務人員以及是單純政治任命的一個政務官"},{"start":4854.372,"end":4869.632,"text":"好 那第三條以下從第三條第三條其實是參佐公務員服務法所訂定的那公務員服務法其實本身就包含政務官因為公務員服務法本身就包含政務官的一個適用範圍在內那第四條以下一直到這個"},{"start":4871.107,"end":4895.341,"text":"第四條以下一直到第十一條第四條以下一直到第十條那第四條以下一直到第十條其實本身是參酌所謂的公務人員行政中立法第四條以下去做的這個訂定那大概文字上大致上都差不多那有些細部的一些修正但主要參酌的這個對象是公務人員行政中立法那公務人員行政中立法第十八條針對這個"},{"start":4899.542,"end":4917.074,"text":"所謂的憲法上任命的一些我們所謂的廣義的政務人員其實已經有准用了所以這邊的條文主要是第四條到第十條以下主要是針對我們一般講的政務官然後去用所謂的公務人員行政中立法的一個相關的內容規範然後去訂定這個政務人員專法這個部分"},{"start":4920.586,"end":4944.753,"text":"有沒有直接訂定的必要那我認為說如果政務官在整個依法行政的一個過程當中當然有所謂的行政中立或政治中立的必要性但是有沒有必要直接訂一個所謂的行為及行為法政務人員行為基準法草案或是直接在公務人員行政中立法第18條去擴大一個準用對象我覺得可能是比較直接的方法"},{"start":4946.114,"end":4952.941,"text":"這個所謂的政務人員行為基準法的草案主要是第11條第11條是其他法規比較沒有的第11條它規範的是政務人員得隨時請辭政務人員得隨時請辭這個"},{"start":4959.571,"end":4985.051,"text":"就算沒有這個條文的規範那政務人員本來就可以隨時請辭本來就可以隨時請辭所以這個條文有沒有訂定的必要那第二項是說政務人員有下列各款情勢之一應主動請辭好 那這邊是用應主動請辭也就是說如果有第十一條的第二項一到四款的事由的話那政務人員是沒有一個選擇權他一定要主動請辭那這邊在實務上執行上會有個困難那也就是說那所政務人員他不做這個動作那要怎麼辦"},{"start":4986.652,"end":5015.792,"text":"證務人員如果不做這個動作那要怎麼辦我們該如何去執行這個條文也就是說例如說因為他的條款是所決策錯誤重大失誤或是對部署的執行政策疏於監督等等首先這個條文的構成要件它的明確性本來就是用一些不確定法律概念在做一些規範這些不確定法律概念本來可能就是要經過相關的函式或是司法院相關的解釋再進一步去做具體化這個東西的解釋空間非常大"},{"start":5016.212,"end":5037.565,"text":"那今天到底這個政務人員他有沒有發生重大失誤他有沒有發生重大失誤那可能某些人認為有可能某些人認為沒有那如果今天是有些人認為有有些人認為沒有那他到底要不要主動請辭好 那如果他大部分假設以民意來講好了民意80%認為這個政務人員有重大失誤那他如果不主動請辭的話那該怎麼辦"},{"start":5039.406,"end":5066.558,"text":"那其實主要的方法還是怎麼樣呢還是監察院去行使彈劾權將他送到所謂的懲戒法院然後依公務員懲戒法去做處理所以針對這個政務人員應主動辭職這個部分我覺得最後在實務適用上可能這個條文在適用上沒有辦法這麼的具體適用那沒有辦法那麼具體適用最後可能還是回歸所謂的公務員懲戒法的方式去使這個政務人員例如說將他撤職等等所以這一個"},{"start":5067.879,"end":5088.718,"text":"公務人員行為基準法我個人如果從我個人的一個意見來講的話我認為說如果能夠去修正所謂的公務人員行政中立法然後去擴大它的一個準用對象或是針對某些條文把它擴大適用到一個政務官身上那我覺得可能會比訂定這個行為基準法草案更加的一個快速這是我的一個"},{"start":5089.853,"end":5099.62,"text":"相關的一個針對這部法案的意見再來第二個就是翁委員等18人拟據的政務人員法草案這個政務人員法草案它其實規範就更廣了規範就更廣"},{"start":5102.354,"end":5123.622,"text":"那一樣它的一個適用人員也是一樣包含我們所謂的廣義的政務人員跟我們的一個政務官一樣是包含這個部分那這部法律原則上首先第一個問題就是它的第五條它的第五條它針對了一些任用的一些消極資格做了一些規定也就是說某些有下列這種14款的人員不能任命為政務人員"},{"start":5125.603,"end":5133.083,"text":"那我覺得這個條文基本上是參照於公務人員任用法的一個相關規定把公務人員任用法相關規定用到這個政務人員身上"},{"start":5134.056,"end":5159.834,"text":"那首先第一個就權力分立上他會不會去限制到所謂的行政機關的提名權就是你會不會用法律去限制到行政機關的提名權那我們大法官解釋613號解釋是說立法院可以去行使同意權嘛可是他不能去剝奪到所謂的這個行政院的或是這個總統的一個提名權那這個東西第五條的規定會不會在權力分立上有可能會去限制到這個總統或是這個行政院長的一個提名權這是第一個"},{"start":5160.655,"end":5186.929,"text":"然後第二個因為這部法律當中如果你去細看很多條款例如說第十款好了第十款依法停止任用或受休職處分尚未其滿者不得任命為證物人員這邊可能會有一些法條上的一些這個法條上的一些衝突因為按照我們的公務員懲戒法證物人員是不會受休職處分的證物人員是不會受休職處分這個第十款的訂定可能在一億上就會可能就是需要一些"},{"start":5188.272,"end":5206.419,"text":"這個修正那我還是回到我最一開始的最基本的一個這個問題就是這個第五條不得任命為政務人員的這個部分有沒有可能會去侵害到這個行政機關的一個提名權我覺得這個是第一個可能在權力分立上會有的問題然後再來我覺得比較大的問題是第八條"},{"start":5207.399,"end":5225.645,"text":"第八條基本上政務人員提名或任命之前各機關應該辦理品德跟忠誠的查核品德跟忠誠查核一樣我們政務人員有兩塊一塊是需要立法院同意的需要立法院同意我想各位委員基本上針對品德跟忠誠查核在整個委員在各位委員在審核的時候應該就是會辦理查核"},{"start":5227.285,"end":5250.121,"text":"所以這一類需要所謂的專業性的需要專業性的這一類所謂的廣義政務人員其實委員在整個審核的過程當中應該就會辦理品德跟忠誠查核的例如說之前的這個大法官提名之前大法官提名其實各個委員就有針對這個大法官過往的事蹟然後去做相關的一些問責然後最後再投下贊成或反對票所以這個部分有沒有必要去訂定針對這個"},{"start":5253.023,"end":5278.385,"text":"這個所謂的這個徐立法院同意任命的政務人員有沒有必要有第八條的一個適用那如果是一般的所謂的這個政治任命的一些政務官例如說部長等等的等級那這個品德跟忠誠查核要誰來辦理要誰來辦理考試院來辦理嗎例如說今天一個內政部內政部的一個部長的一個任命那這內政部長的任命然後由考試院主管機關去辦理忠誠查核這個論理上好像"},{"start":5279.888,"end":5305.377,"text":"怪怪的然後再來所謂的品德跟忠誠查核一樣它是一個不確定法律概念那這個東西要如何查核是以刑事前科為例嗎那它的一個查核範圍跟查核標準要如何訂定我覺得這個可能未來都是需要再進一步去討論的部分那再來就是這部法律基本上有針對政務人員的一些公務員服務法有將公務員服務法一些相關規定規範到這一部"},{"start":5308.138,"end":5330.891,"text":"政務人員法當中規範到這部政務人員法當中並且加上了一些罰環的規定那我再重申一次就是公務員服務法本身就有規範到政務人員那將公務員服務法的相關規定再規範到這部政務人員專法當中並且加上罰環的規定那我們知道政務官基本上一般是負的是政治責任那如果今天政務官有一些廢辭職務或有一些不恰當的行為"},{"start":5331.631,"end":5348.343,"text":"原則上如果執政黨不將政務官換掉針對執政黨下次的一個選舉選民就會對他做一些政治責任的追究所以政務官主要是負政治責任他如果有一些違法失職的情況除非他被彈劾然後依照各個司法機關去"},{"start":5351.324,"end":5367.225,"text":"處罰之外你去對他做以罰還我個人認為是比較不恰當的地方我個人認為是比較不恰當因為他本身本來就是負政治責任最後我再講最後30秒最後第18條關於免職的部分免職的部分我認為也是有疑義的因為你用一個"},{"start":5367.945,"end":5389.452,"text":"類似行政處分的方式將一個本來就沒有固定任期的政務官與免職我認為在整個法制上的疑慮也是有的以上是我個人的一些意見針對政務人員專法我認為或許就現有的一些法規去做一些補充修正我認為可能比較容易達成這些立法的目的以上 謝謝好 有請吳宗憲委員"},{"start":5402.198,"end":5423.07,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天這個公聽會我們已經足足等了30年了那早在民國84年98年101年考試院都曾經推過專法那到現在115年了我們還在這邊討論到底專法有沒有設置的必要我們實在是等了太久那這超過30年的怠惰我們換來的是什麼"},{"start":5423.73,"end":5438.582,"text":"我們看到的是行政中立從一個制度上面ABC的概念變成了一個國家級的大笑話我們看到外交部護照印不出來就怪立法院我們看到內政部租金補貼沒錢也怪立法院"},{"start":5439.463,"end":5457.646,"text":"我們看到行政院為了搞搞他的那個無差別的大罷免為了配合執政黨的無差別大罷免他叫大家不要送解凍案然後逼得一堆公務員出來爆料說長官叫他們不准送解凍案到立法院來然後才不得不把解凍案送過來"},{"start":5459.079,"end":5486.586,"text":"所以我們今天看到連行政院長都不執行立法院三讀通過的法律如此荒謬帶頭違法不編列預算還公開把立法院監督國會叫做迴憲亂政這麼如此的不中立的狀況下就是我們怠惰了30年的下場民主國家沒有人這樣這個只會出現在獨裁國家那久而久之我們的行政中立變成一個只管基層高層都管不到的一個雙標"},{"start":5488.126,"end":5512.224,"text":"的概念那公務員 基層公務員 兢兢業業那個派出所警察為了行政總理兢兢業業但是高層政務官呢隨便愛怎麼樣就怎麼樣內政部長出來到處支持罷免的活動在那邊喊要做台灣國的主人讓總統變台灣國的總統等等的這些荒謬的言論都是這樣出來的先前花蓮那個"},{"start":5514.465,"end":5536.284,"text":"災情的時候民進黨的81人的群組那個截圖流出來裡面有立委裡面有高階的政務官在救災的當下他們不是討論怎麼樣協助救災他們討論的是要怎麼樣用有殺傷力的訊息來攻擊在野黨這就是我們現在講的行政中立嗎好 結果我們的行政院的政務官高官"},{"start":5538.294,"end":5551.196,"text":"還大言不慚的說收到還說要跟我們的四方部長跟我們內政部長來談要怎麼做這就是我們的行政中立嗎這些行為就是行政官直接介入到政黨的工坊"},{"start":5552.972,"end":5576.772,"text":"這個根本他們在談論的事情第一個跟公務根本無關第二個就是濫用行政資源第三個還嚴重侵害政府的公信力這樣的群組流出來還大言不慚的在那邊替自己辯解事實上我們看到的就是在那邊一群81人群組立委跟這些政務官搞在一起那邊思考怎麼樣做政治攻擊這就是我們現在的政府"},{"start":5577.472,"end":5603.429,"text":"所以今天的提綱我有三個主要核心的主張第一個 權責分明我們鎖定的是中央政治任命的官員而不是針對到民選的首長因為縣市首長是一票一票選出來的跟他關聯的有選罷法 有地方制度法所以我認為這個東西不需要納入本法的規範這個部分連上市內政部的報告也都認同我的這個想法"},{"start":5604.61,"end":5623.047,"text":"中央部會的這些首長這些政務 政委他們是官派他們不是民選他們沒有人管但是他們卻掌握了很龐大的行政資源所以這一群毫無民意基礎的這些權利者才是我們真正要規範的對象第二個政治責任"},{"start":5624.068,"end":5651.337,"text":"我希望要避免讓司法介入的問題因為我們不能讓政務官的去留就交給司法來決定因為我們現在目前司法人民信任度非常非常低這歷次的民調就是一次比一次難看那我們認為說現在的司法很容易被操弄我們不應該讓執政黨有利用這種檢查議題的機會用檢調系統來去干預到這些政務官的去留"},{"start":5653.01,"end":5669.132,"text":"再來 我主張建立要有明確的辭職機制當政務官的政策錯誤 言行失當他就應該要展現他的政治風範要主動請辭這才是民主國家責任政治的概念第三個我們要確立主管機關是考試院"},{"start":5670.287,"end":5693.585,"text":"我看到考試院這次的報告一直在那邊花了好大的篇幅一直說政務人員不歸考試院管從考試院推出的第一部這個中立法到現在已經超過30年了還在推來推去行政院推給考試院考試院推給行政院結果呢 推到最後是什麼沒有人管了啦這些政務官沒有人管了他們不用經過國家考試出來也沒有人管他變成太上皇"},{"start":5694.105,"end":5708.019,"text":"但是呢我再跟各位報告這些政務官他有沒有領國家薪水有啊他要不要服從公務員服務法要啊那公務員服務法的主管機關是誰考試院啊所以考試院你憑什麼推給行政院呢"},{"start":5709.184,"end":5727.537,"text":"所以考試院你明明是公服法的主管機關你不能說今天這個事情跟你無關尤其涉及官員這個體系的廉政跟倫理這考試院本來就是主管機關考試院如果說連論述什麼叫做兼職什麼叫做行政中立"},{"start":5729.498,"end":5748.478,"text":"這個都全部交給行政院去自己說了算那不就天下大亂了行政院那麼多機關自己解釋自己的這個部會說這個可以兼職那個部會說這個不能兼職那不就天下大亂了嗎所以我們公務員的解釋為什麼同意由考試院來就是我們全責要劃分然後"},{"start":5749.847,"end":5763.568,"text":"我還沒跟各位說這一次我就看到那個考試院的那個論述我真的覺得這會造成天下大亂大家要注意到今天權敘部的報告他說要交給各用人機關自行判斷"},{"start":5765.287,"end":5781.343,"text":"他不要管考試院全局部不想管他這個中不中立交給各機關去判斷那我請問你今天行政院長會認為自己的複密在81人群組的那個發言配合立委的那個要做政治攻擊的發言他會認為有違法嗎不會吧"},{"start":5782.404,"end":5804.082,"text":"法務部長各部長會認為自己有違法嗎在群組裡面幫忙一起喊打喊殺在野黨會認為自己違法嗎不會啊所以久而久之變成是求援兼裁判所以我覺得這個全區部的報告真的是不對這種需要統一解釋的東西怎麼會交給各個用人機關自己去決定呢"},{"start":5806.004,"end":5830.277,"text":"這個丟回去給行政院這個不叫做回歸責任政治這個叫做縱容政治護航我們現在看到每天都在我們這塊土地上面上演所以我希望考試院站出來用一個客觀解釋的角度而不是讓行政機關自己愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋替自己擦脂抹粉替自己的違法行為護航我不要是這個樣子立法院"},{"start":5831.987,"end":5860.304,"text":"這邊我們絕對不接受兩個憲政機關像打乒乓球一樣把行政總理這件這麼重要的事情行政院丟給考試院考試院又丟回給行政院讓國家處於無法可管的這個狀態下面我自己當公務員當了25年不包括來做民意代表我做了25年的公務員我很清楚國家要穩定發展靠的是制度絕對不是單靠個人操守不是單靠個人"},{"start":5861.723,"end":5866.598,"text":"自己的嚴格要求就能夠讓國家穩定發展我們一切要靠的是制度"},{"start":5867.904,"end":5896.663,"text":"所以我這次提的公務人員行為基準法我不是為了任何的政治攻防我只希望未來一個執政者不管哪一個黨執政都不能夠濫用行政的權利然後來做他的政治上面的攻擊我希望讓行政回歸專業讓公務體系找回尊嚴讓人民相信政府的存在是為了公共利益而存在行政中立拜託不能再等下一個十年了好 謝謝各位"},{"start":5900.307,"end":5901.35,"text":"有請孫維教授發言"},{"start":5913.915,"end":5927.4,"text":"主席 在座的各位學者專家 學術先進 政府官員 媒體朋友大家好非常榮幸來到立法院的公聽會來參加討論政務人員權利義務法制化的議題"},{"start":5934.723,"end":5955.332,"text":"我们就学理而言这个政务人员跟事务人员他都是行政官的分类他相较于司法官的话他是行政官的分类对于事务人员我国已有严谨的规范文官体制的法律体系自不代言"},{"start":5956.568,"end":5977.438,"text":"但是政务人员他是随着政党选举的成败与政策变迁而进退的公务员而当代的行政事务环境是千变万化而且随着科技的进步还有社会价值的持续发展"},{"start":5978.298,"end":6007.059,"text":"担任决策跟领导的政务人员他实在是需要更为宽广的决策空间譬如说数位发展文化教育科学技术甚至于青年世代等等的政策领域但是现今各种版本的这种政务人员法草案当中大多数是针对中央跟地方的政务人员"},{"start":6007.719,"end":6033.516,"text":"加诸它是消极性的禁止规定这种专法适不适合多变复杂的行政环境是有待商榷而且现今有关于公务员服务法当中已经涵盖了政务人员"},{"start":6034.216,"end":6061.746,"text":"所以如果我们再制定一份专法的话会不会有跌床驾屋的一些思考这个是我们值得商榷的而我们由更为宽广宏观的视野来思考所谓的公务人员政务人员的专法的话我以为政务人员他应该是广招社会的显打"},{"start":6063.009,"end":6065.08,"text":"为整体的国家社会"},{"start":6066.513,"end":6093.601,"text":"的公共利益針對過去 當前跟未來的公共問題來貢獻智慧相關的專法如果過於嚴苛它可能妨礙 阻絕有致於這種公益精神的社會顯達為當代的公共領域獻身這也是我們所需要進一步的去思考的"},{"start":6095.481,"end":6110.879,"text":"个人认为要强化今天政务人员的本身来说的话他的专业性其实非常的重要如果我们退一步而言的话退一步而言的话我们"},{"start":6111.48,"end":6136.197,"text":"如果真的要设立所谓的政务人员的相关的法律规范我们是不是也可以考虑使用基本法的这种性质来表示这种基本法基本上面它是做一些原则性宣示性或者是精神性来列举政务人员应该遵守的权利跟义务"},{"start":6136.937,"end":6146.125,"text":"尤其是也有關於他的這種現行公務人員的專業性的基礎能力的培養我們可以把它定在相關的"},{"start":6148.261,"end":6175.476,"text":"基本法当中比如说第一就是对于这个宪政法制的知识宪政法制的知识现在是当不论是在哪个领域的政务人员都是相当重要的第二个是政策分析的能力特别是对你任命的那个特定的政策领域的政策分析能力这个是第二点第二点的专业第三呢"},{"start":6175.876,"end":6200.154,"text":"是有关于预算审查的这种知识这个也是非常重要的第四是一个公共伦理的素养公共伦理的素养刚刚有各位的先进也有提到我们现行现在的很多的等于说政治运作的一些所谓的乱象"},{"start":6201.194,"end":6226.414,"text":"但是如果我们就更深层次或者是高层次来思考的话一个完美完善严谨的法律体系往往是不完善不严谨的现实运作的结果所以我们今天要确保政务人员依法行政来保证人民来保证"},{"start":6227.234,"end":6255.046,"text":"人民对于政府施政的信赖的前提的话我觉得还是应该要有聚焦在政务人员的专业性这个角度专业性这个角度所以第一个我们是讨论的是不是制定政务人员专法的必要性我做出一些比较原则性的回答"},{"start":6256.006,"end":6264.091,"text":"然后他是不是应该接受中央如果有一部相关的规范的话"},{"start":6265.763,"end":6294.222,"text":"它是规范中央级跟地方级的政务人员的范畴我认为是应该的而且根据我们现在的宪法五权分立制衡的原则我们有关于政务人员的法的相关规范的主管机关它应该是由可能应该由考试院来担任裁罚的部分应该由"},{"start":6296.443,"end":6306.427,"text":"監察院來擔任而且我們現在有關於政務人員的所謂的這種忠誠義務等等跟我們的"},{"start":6308.445,"end":6325.753,"text":"行政中立一樣其實這個是一個非常抽象的一個概念它就好像我們談的學術倫理學術倫理我們不是談學術法律對不對"},{"start":6326.693,"end":6355.641,"text":"为什么呢因为我们刚刚讲的比如说忠诚啊或行政中立啊他也可能在不同的政策领域不同的时空背景甚至在不同的国内的这个政治情势甚至在全球的地缘下面而有所不同如果采用啊这种刚性的啊这个法律条文来予以规范的话他的合理性啊也是啊有在有待商榷的啊所以呢我认为啊如果呢"},{"start":6356.101,"end":6361.254,"text":"有必要对于政务人员予以规范的话"},{"start":6363.84,"end":6387.506,"text":"除了我們對於現行的法律 譬如說公務員服務法來予以修正 來予以補強我們退一步而言的話 如果真的要規範的話我認為由政務人員權利義務規範法也是一條路徑以上 前件 敬恭各位參考 謝謝好 有請張彥祥教授發言"},{"start":6402.045,"end":6415.493,"text":"謝謝主席還有在場各位的委員還有各位專家學者各位先進在場還有我的過去的老師然後還有謝謝各位官員跟媒體朋友今天很榮幸有這個機會來這邊"},{"start":6417.942,"end":6433.713,"text":"應該有開跟大家來報告一下個人的一些粗淺的想法一開始我就順著這個問題的提綱來就是做報告時間上應該是不可能全部報告完所以我不會全部的都講如果"},{"start":6434.954,"end":6456.93,"text":"其他沒有報告到的部分就請參閱我的書面資料第一個關於說制定政務人員專法的必要性我個人跟之前的幾位先進是比較接近的想法是政務人員的管理規範在現行制度其實已經有相關制度可以運作了政務人員他適用其他機關有提出類似的見解他適用懲戒法"},{"start":6457.59,"end":6483.426,"text":"請假規則也適用公務員服務法那也適用這個選罷法跟政治獻金法那比較有爭議的是行政中立法因為行政中立法只有在第18條的部分將所謂依法律獨立行使職權的這些政務人員加以准用但即便是如此其實如果認為說這個其他部分的政務人員有需要去准用部分的規定的話那其實只要修改准用規定就可以了"},{"start":6484.546,"end":6510.594,"text":"實際上17條它其實已經把一些不屬於傳統公務員的人用准用的方式把它列進去換句話說只要在准用的主體範圍做變更應該可以處理掉部分的需求再來司法人員實際上主要是由法官法來規範我在整個書面資料裡面有特別談到我認為司法人員的特殊性至少如果要制定相關的專法司法人員可能要想辦法排除或者是用另外的規範來處理"},{"start":6512.094,"end":6531.699,"text":"好 那另外一個是這個定義的部分也就是所謂的這個人員的範疇的部分那目前現有對政務人員範疇比較精確的定義是在政務人員退職撫恤條例那實際上剛有委員提到說關於從這個1998年以來是政務人員嘗試的立法做了很多次"},{"start":6532.199,"end":6551.886,"text":"我們發現說其實要精確的定義不是一件容易的事情那我們看其實三個版我這裡手上拿到的是有三個草案的版本那其實有兩個草案是比較基本上是一樣的但是也不完全就是每個草案都不完全相同那跟這個所謂退職輔具條例也不完全相同"},{"start":6553.027,"end":6575.189,"text":"這種情況下可能要嘗試把它統一一點以翁委員的草案為例實際上他做了一些有些我是贊同譬如說考試院提醒總統任命列入的把它放進來應該是為了把保訓委員拉進來但是行政中立法18條實際上解釋上也其實可以包括保訓委員如果要增列的話其實退職輔助條例可能也要協同的去處理"},{"start":6576.15,"end":6599.133,"text":"再來就是加入民選地方首長這是很有趣的列入剛剛有委員有提到說他不贊成在這個地方確實地方民選首長不是一個部分教科書上的定義我不反對但是如果真的要放進去參照該草案18條的免職規定可能會血流成河"},{"start":6600.093,"end":6619.543,"text":"再來就是我特別會強調的是我認為司法人員他跟一般的政務人員不相同他也沒有隨政黨從進退的問題而且他要獨立審 依法獨立審判所以在這種情況之下用法官法處理會比較合適再下一個問題是政務人員法的主管機關實際上我個人認為說因為我們的政務人員"},{"start":6624.305,"end":6647.344,"text":"雖然叫做政務人員其實它每一個不同的性質都差異很大所以還是回歸各自政務人員的管理機制來處理會比較合適舉例來說其實法官的話他的管理大概還是要回歸司法院因為法官法的做法也是這樣那換句話說你要有一個統一的主管機關會有點困難很難想像像人事情人總署他要來管理大法官或者是管理監察委員"},{"start":6648.184,"end":6674.426,"text":"這很難想像再來裁罰的話監察院是不是合作一個裁罰單位我比較認同監察院他的意見就是說在這種情況之下其實裁罰應該由各法規的主管機關來做會比較合適再來是關於忠誠義務查核禁止行為免職等規定當然剛剛已經有先進提到說這些規定如果跟各法規實際上有重複可能會有跌床駕屋的問題"},{"start":6676.327,"end":6697.537,"text":"再來就是說如果有不足之數其實修改各法規大概就足以做到但是如果這個要談說各草案裡面我覺得比較深入需要討論的幾個我自己找了三個條文一個是歐委員版草案的第18條還有羅委員跟委員版本都放在11條這個在不同機關間接有提到它可能會有比例原則跟這一個"},{"start":6698.958,"end":6720.397,"text":"所謂明確性原則的問題那我們就一來看第一個歐美原版草案18條規範政務人員應該免職的室友這是一個非常強烈的法律效果他直接就免職他用的是違法廢止職務或其他失職行為單純從這個違法上我看不出來到底是行政不法還是行政不法也沒有程度上的區分"},{"start":6721.238,"end":6750.123,"text":"那這種情況之下可能會有比例原則的疑慮還有明確性原則的疑慮那在司法院的書面意見也有提到因為違法的態度很多當然我比較善意的去解釋如果說把後面的這個其他事實行為去做解釋的話它應該限於職務上的行為但是這個東西在構成要件上可能要寫得更清楚一點不然的話其實輕度的違反行政法上義務算不算因為其實超速或者是違規停車都是違法那再來刑法上得一顆罰金的犯罪算不算"},{"start":6750.823,"end":6766.144,"text":"譬如說這個未招文書這種情況下該不該免職這個東西可能必須要去思考再來就是說違法的時間點理解上當然是上任之後的職務進行之間但是沒有辦法從文藝上去做確認"},{"start":6767.786,"end":6787.934,"text":"甚至是過去發生很久違法行為假設今天因為有放入民選地方首長假設一個民選地方首長他過去有暴力犯罪的前科這種情況之下該不該免職這個要思考我個人認為比較正確的立法模式其實是他草案的第五條就是說他有特定的罪名而且有罪犯有罪判決確定這樣子的條件"},{"start":6789.955,"end":6813.508,"text":"那也是一般法律會去做的設計但是第18條沒有這樣的情況它就可能會變成說假設我通過了第5條可以認命結果上任之後因為18條免職有不可能發生這樣的狀況可能要再思考再來廢植植物的部分我認為大概要去跟刑法130條的公務員廢植植物量能災害罪去做一個某種程度上的等同就是它同時要能夠成立"},{"start":6814.128,"end":6833.642,"text":"才去論罪會比較好不然廢止職務會有其他的不確定性再來是或者如果是要退一步來演的話至少要達到國賠法二條二項所謂待遇止盈職務的情況而且大概要有這個判決是一審或者是說判決確定去做一個確認會比較好不然假設今天某民選地方首長因為救災的問題"},{"start":6835.683,"end":6861.218,"text":"然後他被要求追究其廢止食物的罪假設起訴了就應該免職嗎這個大家也要思考一下會不會有一點過於強烈再來所謂的受羈押或起訴這個因於免職那羈押的問題其實這個在座的法律專家所以就是大家應該都很理解羈押的目的是保全證據所以他其實不意味他當然會構成犯罪而且羈押之後可能會停押那再來"},{"start":6862.609,"end":6889.437,"text":"這裡只放了羈押可是假設今天有羈押原因沒有羈押的必要他可能會交保那就會變成說這個羈押要免職交保不免職這樣也有一點不太統一再來起訴一樣在司法院書面已經有提到就是說起訴的話他其實雖然起訴了已達起訴門檻可是他也是有可能無罪在這種情況下是不是應該就職業賦予免職的效果要再思考因為"},{"start":6890.417,"end":6918.257,"text":"过往的做法就是达到一个程度停职如果真的有罪确定那再免职这样可能是比较合理的做法再来就是其实我们的公务员规范针对政务人员实际上你可以为了惩戒处分是免职撤职剥夺减少退职金等等的在这个惩戒法的九条第四项反过来说如果你所有的违法情节都是免职那反过来这九条四项要不要跟着修正还是说它就会变成一个据文这个也必须要去思考"},{"start":6919.237,"end":6933.492,"text":"再來另外一點我要特別強調的是說在另外兩個版本的草案有談到主動辭職的室友其中在這個第二項的第一二三款他剛剛其實有先進有提到這可能會有一個沒有一定判斷標準的問題"},{"start":6934.913,"end":6957.986,"text":"因為它某種程度上嘗試的把政治責任把它賦予法律責任有的時候這兩個會競合沒有問題可是我覺得還是要去區分政策的問題跟法律的問題因為在所謂的政策是否有錯誤主管政府是否發生重大的失誤有的時候見仁見智舉例來說我們縣市政府該不該提供免費的營養午餐"},{"start":6958.986,"end":6978.074,"text":"這個是一定要想一下因為如果今天認為這個是正確的政策那反對了會不會是如果說建設政務官沒做是不是決策的重大錯誤那反之如果認為這很民粹反之亦然嘛那如果做了會不會是一個決策的重大失誤這沒有必然的標準這沒有必然的標準所以我認為如果要這個"},{"start":6978.854,"end":7006.141,"text":"以這個為依據的話至少要加入一些法律責任的成立譬如說他構成懲戒或者是犯職務上之罪被定罪或者是涉及到某些國家培養責任然後他因為故意或重大過失被求償等等的情況再來這裡存在非常大的一個不確定法律概念而且這個時候其實可能會跟立法者實際運作可能會跟立法者的想像有一點落差因為在這個情況下行政機關會有很大的判斷餘地"},{"start":7007.361,"end":7033.466,"text":"好 那實驗上的關係我就今天就跟各位報告到這裡那其他詳細的部分請參與我的參考書面資料謝謝好 有請周陽山教授發言主席 各位委員 各位先進剛剛大家已經講了很多相關的問題"},{"start":7034.98,"end":7049.105,"text":"我想今天我們的立法它的主要的目的是要解決當前的問題那麼當前的問題第一個最嚴重的就是現在的政務人員跟這個機要人員之間開始發生混淆"},{"start":7050.287,"end":7078.456,"text":"在我擔任監察委員期間發覺一個最嚴重的現象就是很多的地方政府的首長用他的機要人員來迴避政務人員應該擔負的職責所以造成某些機要人員在從事政務人員的行為結果呢卻用低階的機要人員來迴避政治人員應該負擔的責任"},{"start":7080.805,"end":7098.191,"text":"所以今天我們在處理這個問題的時候首先要看一個立法的時空跟背景在29年前我擔任第三屆立法委員期間當時是國民黨執政出現了非常嚴重的一些政務人員不適任的問題"},{"start":7099.81,"end":7116.384,"text":"那麼當時我曾經跟民進黨的一些委員一起探討應該制定一個政務人員免職條例這個免職條例裡面具體的規定凡是政務人員違反了一些具體的法律"},{"start":7117.307,"end":7130.577,"text":"要負擔相關的責任而不肯去職在這個情況之下立法院過半數的委員可以經由這個政務人員免職條例迫其去職"},{"start":7131.721,"end":7159.281,"text":"我覺得這是今天我們在新的時空之下必須掌握的首要的原則就是要讓政務人員跟機要人員做明確的區分要讓政務人員負擔起應付的責任很多人會說透過選舉把這個政府換掉不就好了嗎但是換不掉那些特殊的擁有特殊背景的政務人員"},{"start":7160.402,"end":7187.791,"text":"這是今天的政治出現許多困境的關鍵所以在這個情況之下首先政務人員的界定必須清晰而且具體比如說現在的國安會諮詢委員現在的公平會委員現在的通傳會委員這些到底是不是政務官受不受政務官相關的各種法律的"},{"start":7190.575,"end":7202.122,"text":"規範還是三不管地帶根本沒有任何的法律來規範他們第二在過去二十年裡法官"},{"start":7203.208,"end":7229.91,"text":"逐渐的不再受到监察院的弹劾为什么呢因为法官法自己搞了一个叫职务法庭然后职务法庭主动去要求监察院对某些他们认为有问题的法官跟检察官来进行弹劾但是监察委员实际上已经不能主动弹劾法官检察官各位查一下监察院记录"},{"start":7231.091,"end":7255.601,"text":"這個法官法弄了以後法官變成一個特區監察委員不能主動來彈劾而必須是在職務法庭送交監察院再由監察院彈劾然後再送回這個職務法庭來進行相關的懲戒或懲處第三大家剛剛也講到了有關這個"},{"start":7259.861,"end":7276.556,"text":"政務官的界定是不是應該把這些獨立行使職權的這些官員排除可是我們看一下目前的中華民國憲法增修條文第五條第二項"},{"start":7277.848,"end":7290.442,"text":"司法院大法官任期八年不分届次个别计算不得连任但并为院长副院长之大法官不受任期之保障"},{"start":7292.293,"end":7309.87,"text":"司法院院長 副院長不受任期保障他到底是政務官還是受任期保護的特任官所以我們現在在真正的我們的立法體制裡面已經出現了許多漢格而不為大家所重視的地方"},{"start":7310.49,"end":7330.729,"text":"所以如果我們把政務人員法裡面直接把受任期保障的這些人排除那麼司法院長跟副院長不受任期保障如何排除第二 政務人員法的立法目的是要控制政治分贓"},{"start":7332.952,"end":7360.414,"text":"也就是說要讓在政治上因為裙帶關係跟捧黨政治所造成的腐爛的這個現象得到適當的約束所以要對政務人員的範圍規模 緣額要做具體的規範在這三位委員提的方案裡面都沒有"},{"start":7362.028,"end":7385.655,"text":"目前政府也沒有提出相關的規範我的具體建議是政務人員的總額不超過一千人第三就是政務人員如果違反了在政務人員法裡面所規定的這些要件立法委員得以過半數的總額"},{"start":7387.247,"end":7413.863,"text":"投票迫其去職這也就是剛剛我講的必須要有一個政務人員的免職條例的適用第四 政務人員的資格要件應該要採取正面的列表以及負面排除的雙項規定因為大家注意到因為現在很多的民選的議員"},{"start":7415.834,"end":7439.794,"text":"跟民選的首長在下一屆已經不能再選可是他們現在正在爭取擔任新的政務人員所以換句話說我們應該明白的規定凡是不得參選的人就不可以擔任政務人員所以一個是正向的規定一個是反向的排除的規定"},{"start":7441.752,"end":7465.867,"text":"第五政務人員法的主管機關非常清楚是考試院因為我們的五權憲法制度一方面它是一個制衡關係另外它也是一個分工合作所以無論是從制衡或者分工合作的角度政務人員法當然是屬於考試院的職責第六"},{"start":7466.997,"end":7496.098,"text":"政務人員本身是具備政治經驗跟政黨背景的所以除了有專法明文規定像是大法官監察委員考試委員應該超越黨派政治中立不得參與政黨的活動除了這些之外對於政務人員不應多做規範但卻應該明文規定政務人員不得指揮或者責令"},{"start":7497.287,"end":7519.062,"text":"常任文官来配合他的政治活动并且承担政治任务所以在本法中应该规范具体的法则第七立法院对于政务人员的提名以及同意权的行使"},{"start":7520.441,"end":7548.516,"text":"包括在审查程序中有关学者专家对提名人是否适格的表述应该具体的统整他们的意见并且列表作为一个专业评估的意见比如说我们面对大法官的时候我们咨询了比如说60位法官相关的这些法学者或者政治学者"},{"start":7550.031,"end":7571.804,"text":"就應該對他們是否適格進行投票然後公佈這個票數但是最後的決定權在立委本人所以立委在進行投票的時候那個投票才是最後的結果可是這些專業人員的意見卻可以提供社會大眾重要的參考"},{"start":7572.918,"end":7595.827,"text":"那麼在這個情況之下配合政務人員法進行調整的同時也應該在立法院職權行使法第四章中做具體的規範謝謝大家是 謝謝周老師好 那接下來我們請桂紅城董事長發言"},{"start":7607.839,"end":7628.821,"text":"主席 在場的各位學者 專家 各位老師還有我們一起來參加列席的專關主管機關的代表還有在場的媒體記者我是民主文教基金會桂鴻誠那麼我剛剛聽到吳宗憲委員他曾經提到《中國人民法》在民國84年他是從民國84年就算起的"},{"start":7629.181,"end":7646.44,"text":"沒有錯 民國84年那一次我有參與所以我對這個法案的話我是還是有些印象那麼民國84年的時候我那時候還在全序部所以我對這個法案我大致上了解它是我們前一任前一任全序部部長交代下來的"},{"start":7646.92,"end":7670.869,"text":"因為在解延以後解除戒嚴以後考試院他主動向當時的中國國民黨他也提了一個報告說要配合解除戒嚴那自由化了所謂政黨可以組黨了所以相關的文官體制要整建人事法制那個時候一個建議就是說要制定一個最基礎性的規範或許就叫做公務人員"},{"start":7671.949,"end":7688.627,"text":"基准法然后在这个架构里面我们另外又有分出来一个政务人员法或者是说常务人员把它定义在相关的所谓考试及格的甚至说约聘人员不需要考试及格也还有机要但它属于常务的"},{"start":7689.807,"end":7713.812,"text":"有這個概念架構也因此有了所謂政務人員法草案在民國84年我們也很急的也很積極的 不是很急然後完成了一個草擬送到考試院所以剛剛吳宗憲委員提到是民國84年開始30多年前了其中還有一個重要的一個法案是行政中立法那個在民國98年也是在國民黨執政的時代才通過的"},{"start":7716.272,"end":7740.421,"text":"我們是蠻訝異的現在全面掌握政府權力的是民進黨他為什麼一直在排斥這個法案呢而這個法案卻是在國民黨執政的時候他所推出來的《政務人員法》《公務人員行政中立法》甚至於《公務人員行政中立法》推出之後在15年之後在民國98年才通過剛好那時候我又在所以我有這個印象我也做一個背景說明也就是說"},{"start":7742.541,"end":7763.535,"text":"國民黨執政的時候他並不擔心而且他主動積極要健全文官體制要建立所謂的政務人員法只是當時或許有些立委國民黨的立委他們不支持但是現在來說的話我是覺得政府機關應該要朝所謂整建人事法制這個角度來做這樣一個思考"},{"start":7764.835,"end":7792.204,"text":"所以我認為這個法當然是絕對是要儘速通過那它的主要理由或者是說目前我們所碰到的一些可能需要注意的問題我來跟大家做一個介紹你看我們剛剛講到我們的法案目前是有兩個就是所謂行為基準行為好像就是一個限制其實我們制定這個法案它還有一個重要的目的是權利政務人員你有什麼樣的權利呢"},{"start":7793.308,"end":7821.478,"text":"縫紙對公務員來說它是個權利對政務人員當然也是但這個要不要法律化呢如果你沒有法律化的話你就會不知道它的錢怎麼來的我這邊就舉個例子你看網路上可以查到政務人員給予表還有主管職務加給表我們以檢任比照檢任第十四職等的我們以常務次長或者是直轄市政府的副市長"},{"start":7822.486,"end":7847.537,"text":"所謂政務人員職務比照檢任第十四職等如果我們看網路上查得到的話他的意思就是說他的薪資待遇比照常任文官的十四職等會嗎 真的是這樣子嗎主管加級改了107年的時候賴清德當院長的時候發個公函政務職的十四職等比照檢任十四職等"},{"start":7848.427,"end":7869.657,"text":"以及十三指等另外調薪你網路上查不到要有公文出來給你看你才知道他是說預算通過了就調薪是不是預算沒通過還可以減薪呢這個叫法律化不然的話你光講說照減刃第十四指等"},{"start":7870.871,"end":7886.834,"text":"人員的薪資待遇那個是唬人的根本不是啊還有另外的公文啊加薪了所以我特別強調這個要法律化但這也是權利啊那另外剛剛大家也提到的陳菊院長"},{"start":7888.972,"end":7906.848,"text":"請假超過一年多那全巡部說得很清楚我也聽得很明白他是說適用公務人員請假規則那我其他不多講如果適用的話你如果講說比照一下參考適用都好如果你說適用的話那我們來看"},{"start":7908.915,"end":7936.537,"text":"請假規則第18條規定各級機關首長請假應報請上級機關長官核准剛剛黃國昌委員也提到了請問監察院長上級機關是誰全國最高監察機關的首長他還有上級機關嗎誰准他假的 誰讓他延長病假的那我們更不要講所謂這種公務人員請假規則主要是給常任文官 常任事務官"},{"start":7937.557,"end":7945.61,"text":"因為你的植物是踴躍化的保障你政務官不是嘛 你還有任期的嘛怎麼可以讓你停兩年呢"},{"start":7946.618,"end":7975.878,"text":"而且那种说法我如果没记错的话要所谓两年内可以合计可以请一年好像还要回来起码回来一天吧回来一天再延长病假但你如果一再的用这样子来说它是适用的话这个是法律条文就完全就配合不了了完全就是讲的难听点也不得已了那是因为院长所以你就只好说固然过去很多福利"},{"start":7976.698,"end":8004.566,"text":"等等 你都是參考比照適用常任文官的但這是不對的職務性質不同如果你真的要有些福利你政務人員你也要有的話請你寫準用但也不能全部你要看哪些可以 哪些不可以常任文官跟事務官常任文官跟政務官是不同的回到剛剛講以前為什麼偷偷給他加薪是以前政務次長的薪水會比常務次長少"},{"start":8005.914,"end":8033.463,"text":"因為他沒有考積獎金那你不能偷偷加然後你還說是預算通過那我們今年預算你不要通過讓他減薪 可以嗎大家一定做不出來會被罵 對不對好 但這個要法律化這是權利它不僅僅只是行為的基準跟義務接下來我們如果要 我認為要制定這個法所以我認為政務人員的範圍很重要那我提出幾個大家去思考的"},{"start":8034.537,"end":8051.81,"text":"我具體的建議就是我們講的政務人員用一個最簡單的一種說法他就是政治任命的你至於說你是不是負責政策那是其中的條件之一重點是你是政治任命的"},{"start":8052.861,"end":8078.689,"text":"什麼叫政治任命的下面就要介紹了就一定不是考試及格的嘛你也不是有法律規範等等諸如此類當然有些你是負責政策有些不是但是你只要是政治任命的我們可能就把他納入啊那我特別強調組織法律所以法規行政命令不包含在內喔如果行政命令可以包含在內的話各院可以自行設置政務官全亂了"},{"start":8080.407,"end":8108.059,"text":"地方的話就地方制度法明定或者是它授權有幾個比例可以列為正務職的一級單位機關組長諸如此類還有一個狀況就是這個部分的話我個人不大熟住外的 住外的話但基本上我的了解我們目前住外的生活條件良好的住外的代表或大使沒有 應該沒有大使 就代表"},{"start":8109.158,"end":8133.754,"text":"那都是政治任命的 特任的吧那艱困地區的就可以常任文官去當大使也是邦交國因為我們的邦交國大概就是艱困地區那是給我們常任文官的他們都有本職事務官或者特任的政務官那這個部分要稍微的要再精確的了解他們的不同好 那我現在又提到一點了"},{"start":8134.98,"end":8164.025,"text":"我們現在充斥著黑官而且黑官裡面竟然有部長級的特任官你如果按照我如果按照我所講的要有法律的話台灣美國事務協調委員會他的主委是特任他不是組織法律耶那就是黑官還有所謂的黨產會所謂的聘派結果你主任委又列為特任聘是指"},{"start":8165.356,"end":8194.31,"text":"聘監派是指派監他不是特任特任應該是總統任命那這個部分都是一個很重要的一個有問題的地方另外中選會代理中選會的主任委員目前是代理的委員他不是官員身份他代理主任委員之後他是特任官嗎他受不受約束那這也是個問題啊因為委員是無幾職就一定不是官員嘛可是他為什麼可以代理主任委員呢主任委員是特任官他到底什麼身份這又是個問題啊另外"},{"start":8196.021,"end":8213.113,"text":"有沒有特派這個要請全區部或人事總處確認一下應該沒有特派因為我看到我們委員裡面的那個草案裡面有特派我們好像沒有特派官了這要特別稍微留意一下另外一個最重要的特聘是什麼抱歉我時間不夠講完這個特聘"},{"start":8216.196,"end":8243.469,"text":"有黃曙光擔任潛艦國造的欽差大臣之後特聘這個職務就露出檯面了但什麼是特聘 他是官員嗎他不是官員他為什麼可以變成欽差大臣負責國防部所應該管的所謂的潛艦國造那他如果不是政務人員的話潛艦國造案出問題了檢察委員可以彈劾他嗎那我們都沒有把特聘列進來到底什麼是特聘"},{"start":8245.575,"end":8260.526,"text":"這個它是部長級待遇像這個特聘的話該不該列入 怎麼規範包括他可不可以兼職這都是權力事項也請一併參考時間超過了我有相關的書面資料 敬請各位參考 謝謝"},{"start":8264.669,"end":8279.674,"text":"謝謝龜董事長精闢的見解接下來我們再請陳清秀教授發言那麼待會在陳教授發言完畢之後我們就先休息五分鐘讓大家可以上個洗手間先請教授"},{"start":8282.833,"end":8307.932,"text":"主席 還有各位委員 各位先進 大家早安 早上好很榮幸有這個機會來參與這一場政務連連權力義務法制化的公聽會我想今天我們聆聽了各位先進學者專家意見我自己覺得受益良多我們知道我們法案通常是由政府主管機關來提出法案"},{"start":8309.033,"end":8336.859,"text":"那政務人員法制呢這個可以說是關係到整個高級文官制度應該怎麼樣來合理的經過發展那麼主辦主管機關啊要嘛就是考試院要嘛就是我們的行政院人事行政局這個以前叫人事行政局現在叫行政院人事行政總處那麼主管機關呢對於法制的建設呢是責無旁貸的"},{"start":8337.899,"end":8366.974,"text":"今天我們沒有看到他們提出對應的法案這是代表他們違法待遇執行職務一個國家要進步 需要大家國家先往匹夫有責尤其主管機關不應該待戶職守從這個案子裡面我們深切期盼主管機關不可以相互推卸責任這個我個人現在在提倡天人合一思想就是要利人利己 天下為公"},{"start":8368.191,"end":8390.812,"text":"別人不做的 我們可以做的就應該拿起來做不應該互相推卸責任這個的話 整個國家社會怎麼進步所以我覺得我們不應該自私自利一定要利人利己國家的事務是共同的責任法治的現代化 合理化是共同的責任我們常任文官有"},{"start":8392.188,"end":8419.838,"text":"行政中立法 公務員的行政中立法那麼更高階的政務官更應該要行政中立因為他掌握了國家的資源更容易供契私用但是我們居然法規有欠缺這個代表我們法治建設不完備 有漏洞我們不可以見死不救法治有重大缺失我們居然視而不見"},{"start":8421.537,"end":8444.826,"text":"這個就不對啦我們的憲法採取相對多數就可以選全體擔任總統換句話說少數人代表所屬出來的人可以來代表全體國民執政這個就違反了民主國家多數決言理你要代表多數就應該要有多數黨"},{"start":8446.976,"end":8472.902,"text":"來組成政府來執政如果是總統那麼至少第一輪沒有過半數那麼第二輪選舉要讓他過半數之後採取的民主的正當性所以進步的國家採取總統制的一定要採取過半數才支持的人民人民所支持的候選人才可以來代表全體國民執政我們台灣的憲法制度有重大缺失"},{"start":8474.557,"end":8499,"text":"少數人可以代表多數人來執政換句話說沒有經過我同意也沒有授權你只能代表你少數人你怎麼可以代表多數所以我們現在的政府是處在一個專制的非民主的反民主的一個政府狀態我們的政務官如果我們採取內閣制就沒有這個問題我們政務官採取還是政黨政治的做法"},{"start":8499.841,"end":8515.339,"text":"少數政黨可以來代表全民執政這個就是一個重大的缺失那我們要怎麼樣挽回呢我們應該要求這個政務官要體察民意了解多數人民的生活需要"},{"start":8516.614,"end":8531.306,"text":"為民生意除害不可以只考慮到少數黨派的利益國家利益 全民利益一定要超越黨派的利益所以我們政府連連的倫理規範第一條就是要忠於憲法 遵守法律"},{"start":8532.647,"end":8558.722,"text":"這個是依法行政最基本的也就是貫徹民主政治 民意政治多數決原理的這個基本精神如果我們政務官沒有這樣的體認他就不適格當政務官因為他沒有忠於國家 沒有忠於憲法我們憲法是民主國原則怎麼可以違反民主原則變成專制獨裁呢這個代表這個政務官的人格有問題"},{"start":8560.1,"end":8574.494,"text":"因此我們在政務官的選任方面一定要要求他要通情達理通達民情 通達民意通達人民的生活需要通達天理 通達事理要講道理"},{"start":8575.717,"end":8602.965,"text":"一個不講道理的政府 它會危害我們人類社會的它會危害我們的全民的生活福祉的我們期盼我們的政務官都是品格兼優的 得財兼備的所以《易經》裡面提到一個觀點 以德配位如果德不配位的話 它違反了天理天道它違反了事情的道理那麼它所作所為就會胡作非為 違法亂紀"},{"start":8605.106,"end":8628.551,"text":"所以因此我在這邊提倡我們的政府人員的行為準則不要只落入到世俗化的到底要不要利益衝突迴避一個大公無私的人 他就不會貪污舞弊他一定是天下為公 一定是利人利己的所以我們所重的就是他的品德修養"},{"start":8629.671,"end":8658.338,"text":"所以日本的這個高階文官日本的明文規定國家的公務員倫理法制他就有這樣一個規範建過我個人認為我們應該要有政務官的倫理規範他的價值觀 人生觀 世界觀是不是真的是大公無私為我們全體國民在奮鬥為我們人類生活福祉在打拼"},{"start":8659.258,"end":8675.912,"text":"我覺得這個就是他要重視民意如果他不重視國會的多數人 多數覺得意見代表他是反民意的 他是獨裁的我們不應該讓台灣變成獨裁的國家我們台灣是一個民主法治的國家"},{"start":8677.185,"end":8699.493,"text":"所以他要以人民的意見為議規多數人的意見為議規以全民的福祉作為他施政的總目標這個地方我非常贊同剛剛這個孫教授提了一個觀點就是我們應該有一個強制的在職進修就像公司的治理董監事一定要每年強制在職進修"},{"start":8700.433,"end":8715.567,"text":"我們至少也應該要求我們政務官每年有個強制在職競秀課程對憲政法治的基本觀念要把它建構起來對一個公務倫理道德也應該要建立起來對政策的分析能力也應該把它建構起來"},{"start":8716.508,"end":8730.794,"text":"我們培養優秀的人才 才能夠為國家所用才能夠建設台灣成為人間的淨土所以我很提倡我們這個法治的建構的基本原則回歸到天人合一思想"},{"start":8731.926,"end":8759.669,"text":"人在做天在看回歸到上帝的造物法則的規律回歸到事情的道理本身來處理公務因為這個大家的事情這是我們世世代代子孫希望能夠前人種樹後人成娘祖上積德必應子孫我們不希望把台灣搞得污煙瘴氣啊所以呢我們期盼大家併著良心公正的處理事情"},{"start":8760.819,"end":8771.757,"text":"我們的主管機關不可以待戶直鎖我以前擔任人事局局長都會主動找事情做不會這樣互相推卸責任不應該一代不如一代"},{"start":8773.872,"end":8798.375,"text":"這個是我個人認為我們應該要注意到這些面向當然大家可以用AI來搜尋一下到底政務官怎樣去見過我們的做法似乎有一點朝向事務官化所以有所謂的懲戒的程序德國的部長法律規定聯邦部長法裡面他是部長是不走這個不循著這個所謂的公務員的懲戒程序的"},{"start":8799.568,"end":8825.929,"text":"因為就像儒家思想所提到的行不上大夫我想我們對於我們的政務官這是國家的棟樑應該要應有的禮遇跟尊重他應有的福祉福利也應該要給他照顧我覺得我們應該要大公無私的講道理的來建構我們的高級文官的制度大家敞開心胸"},{"start":8826.75,"end":8850.418,"text":"我們希望大家都能夠符合這樣一個天理 世理 倫理的法則來處理國家的公共事務這樣的話我相信我們台灣我們的中華民國一定能夠屹立不搖可以走向一個富強的康莊大道可以永續發展以上請多多指教 謝謝"},{"start":8853.069,"end":8860.574,"text":"好 謝謝陳教授的發言那麼我們現在就先休息五分鐘然後待會再繼續請其他的專家學者們發言"},{"start":9231.069,"end":9235.836,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會那接下來我們就請彭錦鵬教授發言"},{"start":9256.277,"end":9271.478,"text":"主席各位先進非常高興非常榮幸有這個機會來參加這個公聽會首先聽了上半場的各位先進所提供的意見我學習很多"},{"start":9272.574,"end":9289.77,"text":"但是我個人在過去這40年裡面一直都在研究國際的以及國內的人事制度其實有蠻多話想講那我只有10分鐘的時間所以我大概都只能夠扼要地點到基本上"},{"start":9290.908,"end":9314.331,"text":"政務人員法從87年到101年間已經有五次會嫌行政院送立法院審議但是都因為藉其不接續審查所以並沒有完成立法作業全序部在108年也曾經送給考試院來審查但是也是無疾而終"},{"start":9315.717,"end":9340.738,"text":"那我們從剛剛黃國昌委員吳宗憲委員所提到的這些實際上的一個例子我們可以發覺到就正如我們剛剛清秀大師所講的這是考試院的這個帶墮立法帶墮也就是有這麼多的問題必須要處理但是呢你如果沒有法律你怎麼處理呢"},{"start":9342.418,"end":9369.15,"text":"那現在我們也可以看到說原來大家都沒有覺得有任何問題的考試院要負責中華民國的公務人員的法制結果居然還可以把它推諉到說那行政院自己管就可以了很明顯的這產生了一個就是說到底要不要政務人員來做一個法制化"},{"start":9370.506,"end":9384.128,"text":"我的答案是當然要而且很迫切如果我們先把這個原則給搞定的話那就可以比較有所期待說我們會有一部政務人員法"},{"start":9386.04,"end":9409.965,"text":"這個公務人員法其實也讓我想到了剛剛也有先進在提到說公務人員基準法 基本法其實我也是在台灣大概第一批來研究公務人員基準法的現在當然也還是躺在考試院當時是吳庚吳大法官負責做一個研究計畫我也是成員之一"},{"start":9411.528,"end":9434.435,"text":"到現在也是完全不見蹤影所以我想第一點我要提到的是就政務人員法的必要性來講的話政務人員是現代化國家文官體系的一部分但是政務人員的選用保障退職等等權利義務關係和一般常任文官是截然不同的"},{"start":9435.509,"end":9463.192,"text":"原因是因為任用並沒有任何考試的條件然後權利義務也是隨時之間會隨著政黨或者是政務領導而改變這樣子是沒有保障的所以基本上單獨立法是必要的這是第一點第二點有關政務人員的立法原議過程其實一直都定名為政務人員法草案"},{"start":9464.11,"end":9480.884,"text":"那已經算下來的話已經差不多三十年的一個時間了那我在第一點所講到的就是政務人員的人力資源運用權力義務關係都需要獨特的法律體系來規範"},{"start":9482.455,"end":9498.557,"text":"那麼在民主國家中常任文官和政務人員是否分別立法規範並不一定常任文官是否分為中央級或地方級的常任文官分別立法也不一定例如說在日本的話"},{"start":9499.318,"end":9523.104,"text":"他們就有國家公務員法然後也有地方公務員法所以目前我國關於公務員長任文官的部分的法律體系已經相當完備而對於政務人員則比較多都是依附在公務員法如果我們能夠單獨將政務人員的權利義務單獨立法這基本上會比較清晰 可辨識"},{"start":9524.878,"end":9542.814,"text":"而且具有法律效益最重要的是具有法律效益那以下的意見我基本上會比較聚焦在翁曉琳委員所提出來的政務人員法草案畢竟這個三個我稍稍比較一下的話比較完整一點比較內容比較多的話是在翁委員"},{"start":9543.775,"end":9563.249,"text":"那从上半场我们大概也可以看到,其实这个政务人员法它会牵涉到的是非常非常多的条文,权利义务关系,然后法律的定义,惩罚的条件都非常非常复杂,其实是蛮难的。"},{"start":9564.267,"end":9588.057,"text":"第三點我要提到的是政務人員法的主管機關應該是考試院從憲法條文裡面可以看到過去這30年都是考試院在負責的那麼除了少數一兩個人曾經表示不同意見然後現在好像是變成民進黨的政府意見要把政務人員管理的就完全放在行政院"},{"start":9589.479,"end":9595.672,"text":"但是我們也必須要了解說我國的憲法體系是比較不一樣的"},{"start":9596.687,"end":9620.726,"text":"一般國家公務員的管理基本上一個叫做部內制也就是說每個部會自己管自己的人事不像我們非常嚴謹的這樣一個法律規範另外也有部外制也就是說在各部會裡面其中有一個部會是在管所有的公務員的法律的這些要件這叫部外制"},{"start":9621.286,"end":9646.662,"text":"那我國剛好是採用的是全世界都沒有的叫做院外制我們有單獨的一個考試院那麼來處理人事的問題那麼在這樣一個憲法架構裡面很顯然的我們當然應該讓這個考試院來擔負這個起草公務人員政務人員法律的這個義務和責任那所以呢"},{"start":9648.438,"end":9666.646,"text":"從這個角度來看的話考試院現在目前是失職的狀態那反過來講如果因為行政院管轄中央政府百分之九十幾大概百分之九十七以上的公務員所以行政院必須負責政務人員法制和實際應用"},{"start":9669.022,"end":9693.041,"text":"我們針對總統府行政院以外的市院之政務人員那他的政務人員法制要由哪一個機關來負責呢所以邏輯上很簡單就是要考試院來負責第四點地方政府的政務人員的人事制度是屬於政務人員法的規範對象我國的人事法制基本上是採用人事一條邊的"},{"start":9694.122,"end":9718.854,"text":"在这样的一种情况之下我们如果针对现在大约现在大约是在500个政务人员的这种情况之下那么我们并不再需要中央和地方两种人事制度来规范政务人员第五点关于政务人员的品德忠诚察核需要在提名或任命前实施这件事情我觉得是必要的"},{"start":9720.135,"end":9734.394,"text":"同時也應該要在法條上面追加對於任命後才發現有問題的或者任命前已經有消極這個條件的都應該要比照辦理第六點 關於"},{"start":9735.916,"end":9750.308,"text":"第八條第二項有關於政務人員辦理特殊查核的事項應該不需要由行政院另訂辦法行之因為根據人事行政總署對本草案的說明現行的"},{"start":9752.37,"end":9779.271,"text":"行政院所屬政府人員依照公務人員特殊查核規定辦理從立法經濟的角度來看的話那麼就由我們目前的一個體制來查查就可以了基本上我剛剛聽到的消息就是我們特殊查核每三年要查核一次但是我們根本沒有人去查核都是由調查局去查核的那總共查核的只有兩個人"},{"start":9780.697,"end":9803.727,"text":"所以我在想說我們永遠都是在省小錢然後做壞大事比方說我們的政務體系高層體系裡面都還會發現政務人員是產生了重大的這種安全漏失所以我覺得乾脆還是由行政院來處理但是應該加強人力的調配第七個 政務人員違反"},{"start":9806.548,"end":9827.394,"text":"本草案第十條到十七條行為規範的有鑒於徵務人員細數公務員懲戒法和服務法的適用對象那麼這一些呢這個應該就不需要再加以處於划環第八點本草案既為徵務人員權利義務的專法本人同意人事行政總署要參照"},{"start":9829.255,"end":9855.331,"text":"各类人员人事专法合并立法的一个体力将待遇管理条例来统一规范把它纳入或者是我们另立一个政务人员的奉集退职规定那我为什么特别会讲这个呢原因很简单全世界最好的公务人员体系就是新加坡新加坡的一个部长初级部长他的薪水大概就是年薪2500万台币"},{"start":9856.502,"end":9877.734,"text":"他們為什麼會很好很簡單這是當年李光耀總理立國的時候就提出來這樣一個目標我覺得我們也可以效法當然蠻困難最後一句話我想要提到的就是剛剛前上半場大家都在講公務人員行政中立法我必須要這樣子很簡單的跟各位講"},{"start":9878.993,"end":9905.06,"text":"全世界除了中華民國以外沒有人用行政中立這兩個字這四個字因為你把它翻成英文的話叫做Administrative Neutrality沒有人用如果有的話是誰呢一定是後面點TW我們很偉大我們是學來的所以就是只有政治中立法因為我們的法的規範對象如果是依法行政那個叫做行政中立那就不必再講了"},{"start":9906.5,"end":9929.617,"text":"我們所針對的全部都是政務官和常任文官或者是政務官跟政務官或者是行政官跟常任文官彼此之間的有關於政治行為是否中立而處理我們已經錯太久了我最後講一句話就是當初在通過這個名詞的時候"},{"start":9932.256,"end":9957.332,"text":"是用舉手表決的是由學者們舉手表決但是大部分的參加的學者並沒有行政也沒有立法也沒有國外的經驗所以當初用表決的方式就通過了叫做行政中立這個名詞是錯的很簡單你把它查一下子這個political neutrality和admission neutrality在網路上所有你能夠出現的"},{"start":9958.112,"end":9971.91,"text":"我們錯太久了所以容我稍微超過幾秒鐘然後講這件事情 謝謝是 謝謝彭老師好 那接下來我們再請江明修教授發言"},{"start":9980.9,"end":9998.246,"text":"主席 各位先進 大家早安剛剛聽了彭教授的發言以後我想這裡首先要針對還是行政中立這個名詞行政中立這個名詞我從文獻中看到考試院的熊忠勇先生他有特別提到行政中立"},{"start":9998.826,"end":10015.054,"text":"之所以在我們中華民國會特別產生的原因主要是因為說在威權時代的時候擔心行政部中立會造成政黨政治無法正常發展可經過三十幾年來的這個實踐以後呢現在我們的常任文官是非常守法的反而是"},{"start":10015.894,"end":10022.083,"text":"民主政治的這些代表的這些政客們反而是違法亂紀然後裙帶關係破壞那個國家體制造成人民非常大的不信任所以因此現在反過來的話我們對行政中立這樣的一個"},{"start":10032.017,"end":10059.236,"text":"一個立法的原則本身我想我們要繼續的再給它加強再給它延伸到所有的政務人員都應該把它包括進去也就是說今天你是依照政治而得到這個地位可是不代表說你可以因政治可以紛張而是說你還是要守國家的法據要尊重國家的體制所以說我在這裡我要特別提醒"},{"start":10061.823,"end":10090.68,"text":"我們現在很多的法律本身其實訂了以後也沒有執行的包括待會兒那個房景堂教授會提到的那個旋轉門條款我剛剛也特別拜讀了一下旋轉門條款是一個非常好的立法可是執行不當執行沒有真正的落實這個也跟我們現在整個國家的整個我們有關於公務法制方面的這個訂令本身的整個邏輯性跟原理性沒有離心有關我想我現在先簡單的講幾個基本的觀念"},{"start":10091.681,"end":10113.813,"text":"政治分账跟行政中立之间的对应关系的话就是为了要对付政治的分账我们才是要行政中立而行政中立法是所有政府只要拿政府的钱的拿全民钱的任何一个人都应该受到他的约制所以说行政中立法有规范的人员都应该受到耶稣以外的行政中立法没有规范的人员就要"},{"start":10116.715,"end":10141.249,"text":"用那個政務人員法相關的法案來給他約束所以說我現在講的已經不是正面表列跟負面表列的問題是說國家已經到這種地步的時候我們的官員的腐敗已經到這個地步的時候我這裡講的官員是一個政務官這個時候我們必須要用最嚴格最嚴厲的方式去給他贏得全民的再度的信任所以說我們可以看到說"},{"start":10142.37,"end":10157.123,"text":"美國的這個份上政治本身造成美國很大的問題那麼當然我們這裡也不適合一些檢討說總統制造成國家重大問題的原因因為全世界總統制沒有一個是成功的我們先不談這個部分好了就以行政重點來看的話"},{"start":10158.024,"end":10178.1,"text":"固然是這個名詞跟政治中立之間是有所不同可是行政中立這個名詞的學術上的定義也好現在法律上的定義也好它確實是比政治中立更加完備即使是中華民國的發明的話我覺得說也是一個正面的發明另外我想我們要提到的是"},{"start":10179.628,"end":10192.624,"text":"當我們來討論這個問題的時候我們必須從權力制衡的角度來看今天我們中華民國的五院之間事實上五院之間的配合度非常高五院之間的互相監督性權力的分離性反而非常低"},{"start":10193.72,"end":10222.471,"text":"事實上權力本身是野獸 是巨獸這本來就應該加以約束的因為當政府的權力越大的時候我們人民的人權的保障是越危險的所以因此這個權力制衡的原理本身我們應該在這個政務人員的相關法制裡面我們應該把它放進去尤其有談到的是如何讓權力不再集中在行政院這個部分我覺得立法院應該要硬起來"},{"start":10223.536,"end":10238.945,"text":"行政院真正來尊重國會所以說這裡還涉及一個政治倫理的問題就是說政治的運作的時候所有的人也不應該以政治立場而是應該以行使權力的正當性"},{"start":10239.741,"end":10257.596,"text":"也就是說不可以供權力納為個人政黨或特定利益的工具所以我們這裡要談到一個結論是什麼呢就是說政治可以有立場但是權力必須要有界限而且應該是以憲法以國家高於這個政黨勢力"},{"start":10260.086,"end":10285.028,"text":"這裡我想先開始釐清一個就是說我們這裡所謂的政務人員是什麼呢相對於常務人員來看的話我覺得說最簡單的講法是什麼呢政務人員應該是不是一般的公務人員也不是民意代表這兩個如果確定好以後他只是依照他有政治責任跟政治權利之間相互之間在運作然後他是"},{"start":10286.642,"end":10313.721,"text":"還是在民主制度中的一個權力分立中的一個從業人員因此我具體的建議會這樣認為非以國家考試非以國家考試任命之所有人員都應該叫政務人員包括說現在有很多的巧立名目的特聘人員 特派人員 聘監人員你不管用什麼名詞你的錢還是來自於國家你的"},{"start":10314.822,"end":10341.751,"text":"權力還是來自於國家所以說所有非以國家考試通過之人員不管你旋轉到任何個位置上面你還是政務人員我想我們必須要有這個概括性的這個規定一定要先出來以後我們才有辦法談以後不然的話太多的瑣碎的規定這個又不行 那個又不行最後全部都是從那夾縫中伸出很多的污垢出來"},{"start":10342.819,"end":10349.578,"text":"所以因此我再用一個政府人員角色理性的這個部分對不起這個部分謝謝你幫我提出來"},{"start":10351.627,"end":10372.801,"text":"所以你看看 政務人員的辦法 只要是政治任命有政治決策的權利 而且應該負政治責任的人不管你有沒有任期的保障不管你是不是有經過立法院的通過全部都算是政治人員 政務人員那繼上述的這個討論以後我就下面的這個三點 具體問題再提出我的淺見 第一點"},{"start":10375.683,"end":10386.658,"text":"公務人員專法是否有必要非常有必要我剛剛很遺憾的看到考試院相關的一些部會首長還有考試院的一些那些文字我是覺得說完全是"},{"start":10388.171,"end":10415.101,"text":"公務人員跟公務員他都沒辦法區分清楚這是考試院的正式文書公務人員是包括全部依刑法依國庫的使用而所有的這些人員都叫公務人員你不管你叫做國營事業的董事長總經理都還算是公務人員公務員當然是依照國家考試任命的那一批特殊的有專業的人叫公務員其他都是公務人員公職人員"},{"start":10416.141,"end":10432.689,"text":"所以因此我認為以目前來說雖然說也有人說行政中立法裡面相關的法案裡面第18條裡面有規定說好像說可以準用可是就是沒有用沒有用我們才要用特別民定這個專法"},{"start":10434.809,"end":10450.554,"text":"把這些分散的規範集中起來然後讓政務人員的正當的行為不能模糊化還有讓行政資源的政治化的餘力給他制止讓整個憲政的制衡權力的分立能夠明確化"},{"start":10451.694,"end":10472.448,"text":"絕對的權力 絕對的腐化今天我們不知道為什麼還有人會說要讓政府好做事政府已經是做事做得過當了我們需要把權力拿回到國會來好好監督他們所以政務人員的權力義務法制法裡面的我們應該藉政治責任跟政治倫理的話我認為應該要地理專法而且中央地方"},{"start":10473.288,"end":10502.101,"text":"所有的還包括立法院同意任命的所有的相關人員都應該納入規範裡面包括說國營事業還包括很多的依照計劃任用的那些人員全部都應該把他納入管制裡面這是第一點第二點有關於主管機關應該是考試院還是哪個單位我覺得有些單位的答案很奇怪什麼表示尊重"},{"start":10503.431,"end":10525.066,"text":"尊重大院 尊重 實在不知道答非所問那基本上你根本就沒有意見事實上就是考試院 考試院責無旁貸而且刑責也應該是考試院監察院能做當然是最好的監察院現在有糾纏權 只要糾纏權他睡著了監察院是一個非常差勁的院根本沒有負起國家的責任最後一點"},{"start":10526.437,"end":10536.687,"text":"有關於忠誠義務跟查核的問題禁止洗媒等等我完全贊同我認為說忠誠義務的查核還有禁止洗媒等等全部都應該要有很明確的界限"},{"start":10537.961,"end":10565.706,"text":"然後依照這個不可這個行政中立不可跨越的縫線我們都交以查核所以說 剛剛房教授有談到的賢人門條款的部分賢人門條款根本就是沒有發揮作用所以現在我們今天很多的腐敗都來自於這些官員轉來轉去哪一個政黨輪替都是一樣貪贓枉法很多是從這邊轉來轉去的那沒有好好沒有任何一個膽美負起責任出來"},{"start":10567.393,"end":10588.474,"text":"所以說我最後的一個結論是說有關於這個 抱歉 第三點忠誠義務查核禁止行賠這一部分裡面的話我想說這是一個時代背景的一個產物所以說我們應該是說因為民間也很多講法他說現在很多的政黨都想把國家變成政黨我覺得請他們要自我約束 謝謝"},{"start":10592.069,"end":10620.321,"text":"謝謝江教授的發言接下來我們就請台大政治系的黃景堂教授發言主席好 各位先進好今天很高興參加這個座談尤其這個公聽會尤其看到很多好朋友那麼大家共襄盛舉我有一個書面意見我現在把重點講一下第一個就是我認為有立法的必要但是要聰明"},{"start":10621.181,"end":10637.962,"text":"要BE SMART然後另外不一定在這步伐完成所有對政務官的亂象或政務官官事官規的建立的手段而是可能要再多元一點也是要更宏觀從治理的角度來出發"},{"start":10638.863,"end":10656.881,"text":"那我首先講為什麼有立法必要第一個就是說因為這個素材重要第二個就是說我們發生問題可以嗎我們在我們的憲政體制下因為我們這個現在立法院大概立法在野黨很難很沒有意願去發動倒閣因為倒閣的作用不能發生所要想要達到的政治性的效果"},{"start":10657.381,"end":10685.959,"text":"那所以這個執政團隊就不會下嘛對不對 不會下那他就不免這個有恃無恐那加上選舉非常的陰破 陰竊 急迫那輸贏太大了所以招數呢 無所不用其極我這邊借用兩個知名的學者講法一個是德國的RuhmannNicholas Ruhmann他講政治 政治人物腦袋想到什麼東西呢政治這個體系的基本邏輯什麼就是權力"},{"start":10686.929,"end":10706.369,"text":"就是我能夠繼續執政就對了我要鬥倒對方那永遠執政這就是政治人物的邏輯所以那接下來我們台大政治學系的這個已故的這個知名教授世界級的教授朱英翰教授他的名言就是說政治人物是神魔雙性各位要記住這句話"},{"start":10707.53,"end":10724.175,"text":"所以我們希望他能夠發揮他的神性他親民的時候可是他如果鬥起來的時候一切以這個聖選為考量那這個就是不顧昌生就是魔鬼這樣子那所以我認為是有立法的必要那當然有些是因為條文我認為有些老舊比如說選者們條款"},{"start":10725.515,"end":10741.289,"text":"那第二個就是說我有什麼這個直接的建議我認為說第一個就是說我們對身分的規定要完善化我們這邊汪委員的版本當然有規定但是我認為還可以再加上幾個補充第一個就是我們要一個定性條款就是它基本上是"},{"start":10742.67,"end":10764.257,"text":"政務官跟國家的關係處於公法上的職務關係所以他不是司法的不能用司法那一套的價值或是機制或是訴訟的途徑來做第二個就是他應該有一個功能定位就是說我們政務官在幹什麼這個時候就可以用到韋伯的政務官的三大特性第一個就是要熱情"},{"start":10766.431,"end":10780.524,"text":"就是要勇於去發掘問題去處理問題熱情第二個就是說要有眼光第三個就是要勇於推出他的政策並且去想辦法把它完成把它落實這個叫做責任倫理"},{"start":10781.505,"end":10805.917,"text":"所以如果從責任論以下 陳菊這個院長現在這個方式是不及格的剛剛我們貴鴻成這個董事長也講到就是說你的請假怎麼可以請這麼久呢所以我說要一個功能定性的條款這功能定性條款它可以銜接到它的諸多重要的制度比如說它的這個解職的室友甚至應該有一個強迫解職的"},{"start":10807.03,"end":10823.17,"text":"除了說他的長官令他取職等等這些接下來就是說他的任命的生肖日是哪一天他解職的要件解職日解職等等這些宣誓如果沒有依照相關宣誓規定完成的話會有什麼法律效果"},{"start":10824.131,"end":10839.669,"text":"這些都要把它加以再進去這個地方不困難因為我們已經有官制官規我們中華民國政府官任命解職這麼多年來都已經有官制規它是用內規我們把它賦予法源等等我覺得這個是有益的"},{"start":10840.169,"end":10856.254,"text":"第二就是說這是核心就是我們三位委員都講到說我們對政務官的為惡就是他魔鬼的部分就是他要濫刑施政你用他的權責去擴大他的人力 他的地盤 他的資源"},{"start":10860.655,"end":10881.637,"text":"要鬥倒對方等等這些這些就在這個草案大概是第12條以下等等這些的規定我們應該怎麼來對峙這個不是說出於政黨之間的公平而已而是對整個國家的法治 民主 人民的福祉等等這些那我會認為說應該多管齊下這個地方就是要BE SMART"},{"start":10882.578,"end":10901.656,"text":"治理那我認為說可以有的手段大概比如說呢第一個就是說呢我們是不是我其他都要推薦要這個就是說要鄭重的進行我們對監察委員跟這個大法官甚至考試委員也一樣的任命是不是應該用立法院的三分之二委員的多數決"},{"start":10902.908,"end":10919.689,"text":"這個就從源頭上把一些鬥雞把一些disqualified的這些人 把他幹掉就是說你要經過立法委員三分之二的同意你才可以取得這個職位那三分之二委員代表什麼代表就是要跨黨能夠同意"},{"start":10921.491,"end":10939.183,"text":"這是核心的第二個就是說是不是也仿照美國的這個獨立管制的委員會這樣他的副作就是說這個機關的副作機關副作應該是有這個在野的就跟比如說機關的首長是執政黨那這個副作應該是在野黨這樣維持一個奧妙的平衡"},{"start":10946.269,"end":10955.54,"text":"因為有時候就委員來講以我以前當考試委員的經驗考試委員是沒有辦法管到考試院的內部的事務的你只是很單純開會你講講話是客親"},{"start":10959.028,"end":10975.761,"text":"對不對所以就是說我們現在講說是不是副作副作就是應該是有政黨推薦出任的那這樣有一個內部的一個制衡這也是一個重要的手段接下來比如說工會的這個或這個工內協會這部分怎麼在賦權"},{"start":10977.402,"end":11006.563,"text":"再復權那麼再來比如說這個資訊公開是不是呢那以及我們還沒完成法治法的立法院的這個資料的這個法治法還不夠實踐上還不夠好資料的調閱以及這個國會調查權我覺得這些都是你要來對峙這個魔鬼般的這個假設已經魔鬼化了的這個政務官的話的一個重要的手段"},{"start":11007.023,"end":11026.102,"text":"接下來我認為說應該要強化評鑑當然評鑑就是要由民間來各位可能會說民間還不是一樣就是各有各的政黨的所支持的民間團體沒關係 我覺得"},{"start":11028.585,"end":11053.786,"text":"階段性總是會先有這個樣子那各個這個民主因為我想大概三五份大概只有這樣就是說三五個知名團體來做那這個時候再重重的去經由各界的閱讀跟評論慢慢慢慢就會累積出這些數字那這些的這個績效那這些的這個讓人民的眼睛是雪亮的來看"},{"start":11054.887,"end":11065.136,"text":"那麼接下來就是說我認為說我們其實對弊案像比如說超思這個弊案或是我們最近有關軍購 國防採購案那麼怎麼會有一些不見經傳沒有專業的"},{"start":11072.122,"end":11086.422,"text":"的這個素養然後過往的經驗甚至資本那這樣就可以得標那像這種的我們慢慢我們這個社會已經走到就會有民間去向檢方提起這個告發"},{"start":11087.723,"end":11110.196,"text":"甚至政黨的人物或黨團也有可能我覺得說我們應該再強化這個部分我們是不是應該要求說檢方對這種重大的這個就是說這個貪圖的或是涉及貪污或說涉及嚴重我們再加上一些要件他應該要適時的"},{"start":11113.198,"end":11135.811,"text":"於不影響偵查公開的要件下那麼來做適當的說明向社會說明他不能說收了案子一年半載沒有訊息石沉大海不能這個樣子甚至應該要明定說我們立法院的委員會可以發動"},{"start":11137.172,"end":11165.994,"text":"這方面的看是以秘密會議的方式或怎麼樣來進行有關的調查等等這些那麼最後我講一點就是說我認為說我們現行在總統府內在行政院內在各部會內的辦公室內談黨務是違反行政中立這個是不行的德國就是這個樣子在官社也不行"},{"start":11167.267,"end":11188.307,"text":"官社不是在幹這件事情那這個應該明定就是說這個就是比較具體化針對我國實際現行的一個應該予以這個落實的這個行政中立政治中立的這個規定接下來就是說對大選的時候不管是九合一的這種大選或者這個中央級的大選那麼這個中央的"},{"start":11190.31,"end":11208.71,"text":"這個長官他去他常常假借個考察的你去考察個這個鳥不生蛋的這個不見金磚的這個小單位然後呢就這樣動用了所有的國家的這個交通時數的這個資源實際在助選嘛那這個也應該予以這個限制"},{"start":11210.071,"end":11228.368,"text":"那麼最後我是希望說我們的這個旋轉門條款放寬因為實際上沒有什麼作用我這邊舉了五個例子是那個AI檢索加上我自己印象中的這個林犬的這個案子都是沒有事就是說都是說並不直接跟職務相關"},{"start":11229.989,"end":11256.73,"text":"那所以就是說你有時候你訂了那麼嚴苛的規定是刑法處罰刑法來事後但實際上是而且是五年的你離職前五年內的所有的職務那你離職後的三年內那我覺得這太嚴重而且動不動就是經過告發就是有檢察官來偵辦那我覺得這太嚴厲了應該參考我書面意見當中的這個德國法來做思考這樣子以上"},{"start":11260.321,"end":11265.174,"text":"好 謝謝黃教授的發言那接下來我們就請動物大學的林三清林老師發言"},{"start":11276.444,"end":11303.57,"text":"主席 各位學者專家各位機關代表還有各位先進 大家好很榮幸受邀來這裡跟大家來交流學習很抱歉 我沒有提供書面資料並不是我不重視這個場合事實上是因為我上週眼睛手術所以做事情比較不方便其實我本來應該是應該要請假的但是因為我非常重視全序部推薦我來擔任這個"},{"start":11305.19,"end":11330.887,"text":"專家的一個發言的機會所以我就還是來參加了我想首先我要談的第一點就是說有關於我們本法的立法目的到底是什麼我覺得透過這個法或許我們可以讓我們的政務人員他的整個行為規範能夠受到人民更多的信賴我覺得這個是一個可以努力的方向我想我們到底有沒有需要來制定這個法"},{"start":11333.869,"end":11351.044,"text":"其實我必須要強調是說我們現在政務人員的相關規範其實是在各個法律裡面其實也都散見了都有規範其實我們倒是應該思考說那到底我們還缺什麼那有關缺什麼這個事情我們應該可以來思考說那政務人員他的相較於一般的公務人員"},{"start":11352.225,"end":11374.294,"text":"它有什麼樣比較不一樣的地方所以我想首先第一個我想到就是說像我們這個如果是屬於其中應該要獨立行使職權超然行使職權這樣的政務人員我覺得他不宜不得參加政黨活動那有關這個部分的規範目前似乎好像還沒有非常明確那如果說我們能夠透過"},{"start":11376.295,"end":11394.009,"text":"這樣一個法規把它做一個明確的規範杜絕將來可能引起社會各界疑義的地方我覺得這是一個可以努力的所以我想基於還有一些類似這樣的點的一個存在我覺得這個法的制定似乎有極必要好 那再來"},{"start":11395.37,"end":11410.367,"text":"我想就是說那我們這個立法的這個方式我是建議採取就是說我們不必大動干戈我們不必要就是說我們好像說把所有有關政務人員的事項通通收羅到這個法律來我們不必如此"},{"start":11410.948,"end":11438.364,"text":"我們依然可以維持現在只要相關法律有已經含括到政務人員了我們就是讓他繼續用的那我們只需要針對我們需要強調的需要針對政務人員特別予以規範的部分把它收羅進來所以我想我們政務人員的專法可以成為一種叫特別法他只需要比較少量的千億的立法方式我們不需要把其他法律已經規定了把它收羅到這邊來也就是說我們"},{"start":11439.304,"end":11467.483,"text":"不用走分流制度好像說我們政務人員一套制度然後一般工人一套制度我們不需要走這樣好那再來我想就是說我們本法的主管機關我其實是在想說這個雖然權序部就是推薦我的機關他這個不認為考試院是應該適格但是很抱歉我這邊我的意見可能跟權序部不太一樣我是認為考試院是適合的這個主管機關為什麼"},{"start":11468.684,"end":11489.547,"text":"因為我們其實考試院被我們的憲法所賦予作為我們公務人員體制的一個法制的一個建構的一個機關所以他是負責我們公務人員法制雖然說我們全局部他有提到說我們少數的公務人員特種公務人員譬如說像警察人員他的法規就是由內政部主管但是這個畢竟是特例但整體而言"},{"start":11490.188,"end":11517.758,"text":"我們的公務員體制是由這個考試院來建構我想那考試院他其實我相信他有雙重的超然他來做這個法規的這個建制他也能夠比起比較比起行政院更能夠這個等於說讓社會各界信賴第一個超然是說他考試委員他本身本來就是被賦予一個超然性的職權地位第二個是說我們主要的政務委員來自於這個行政院的部分那如果說我們今天"},{"start":11519.319,"end":11541.778,"text":"行政院自己作為主管機關來規範他轄下的所有政務官我覺得他在社會各界來講我們認為說可能會認為你的這個意見將來我們遇到法規爭議要去解釋的時候主管機關的解釋可能認為說這個可能不夠超然哪以這個令社會大眾來這個等於說服氣的那我想再來就是說"},{"start":11544.059,"end":11562.095,"text":"我們到底這個法案的這個名稱是不是要認為說把它訂定成叫做譬如說叫做這個行為準則法或者叫做這個比較更廣泛的不局限在這個等於說這個行為而是基於行為以外的其他部分我認為我是採取後者的我認為說我們這個法案"},{"start":11565.438,"end":11590.932,"text":"不僅僅針對這個行為的規範來加以琢磨它還有其他的部分所以我想這個是我對法案名稱的部分那再來我想就是說其實我們必須要知道就是說我們證物人員他也是我們懲戒法的適用對象所以如果他有任何違法失職其實我們本來就有懲戒制度那因此我們到底需不需要在本法當中"},{"start":11591.952,"end":11616.648,"text":"再去納入到所謂的譬如說像裁罰的制度我認為應該要審慎因為我們不如就讓他繼續走原來的懲戒制度這樣的一個制度其實已經行之有年而且我想就是說也能夠讓這個比較避免到又納入裁罰制度好像似乎在這個法律裡面添加了一個就是說好像一個爭議的源頭"},{"start":11618.189,"end":11644.62,"text":"因為大家知道這個政務官他本身就是具有政治性的色彩那如果一旦他有裁罰制度之後是不是就引起這個不同黨派之間對政務官在究責的時候那有沒有要裁罰那我認為這個會造成將來在制度運用上就是說可能造成一個所謂引火線的一個源頭那我盡量還是我們既然已經有懲戒制度我認為還是盡可能就回歸到懲戒制度那再來好像有提到說"},{"start":11647.101,"end":11670.598,"text":"這個免職的制度啦我覺得當然政務官的去留其實當然一般來講政治責任是第一個那我們這個草案裡面好像有提到說在什麼情況下他應該去職這個部分我沒有特別想要去做說明那至於說有沒有因為什麼樣的原因譬如說因為這個違法的這個情勢你有特別有重大的這個違法事由你必須要去職那這個部分我認為說應該"},{"start":11672.259,"end":11678.198,"text":"不排除可以訂但是我希望能夠訂得更加的審慎我舉個例子我們過去曾經有過一個政務官"},{"start":11679.721,"end":11700.95,"text":"他甚至他是獨立機關的政務官他這個等於說他因為任用了他的親戚擔任這個司機就說違反立沖法所以他就被免職了那這個事情我認為讓我想起來就一直有點不安就是說這樣一個高層次的一個政治性任命的獨立機關因為這樣一個很"},{"start":11705.292,"end":11724.832,"text":"細微的違法適由就被免職了這個部分會不會造成衝擊到他的所謂獨立性的地位因為他是有任期保障的狀況我想這個部分我特別以這個例子來強調就是說我們如果要納入免職度我們一定要很審慎那個免職的適由必須要是"},{"start":11725.413,"end":11741.075,"text":"非常的明確無爭議那不會又留下像剛剛那個例子一樣一種因為輕微瑣碎的這個違法而埋下一個很可能就是說去突破一個這個所謂任期保障的一個缺口好那再來"},{"start":11743.217,"end":11771.676,"text":"看一下中程查核的部分我認為這個當然是有必要因為直施高階政務推動的一個政務人員我認為就是說他一定要謹慎因為我覺得我們台灣這個地位或者整個國情特殊我認為這個在中程查核當中來講是有其必要而且不僅是在任命前甚至任期中應該也要有一個定期的這個查核制度"},{"start":11772.156,"end":11788.494,"text":"那最後總結來講我還是要強調一下就是說政務人員剛剛我講過他是本身他有這個所謂他的這個政治性的這個等於說這個色彩那所以因此如果說我們在規範密度上如果我們過於"},{"start":11790.816,"end":11804.584,"text":"強這個等於說高密度的這個去規範例如剛剛講說譬如說這個所謂動輒就是裁罰等等這些其實會可能會埋下我們在這個等於說政治運作當中攻防的一些引火線我認為我們這個法律"},{"start":11807.265,"end":11823.671,"text":"那我剛講過我們是採取特別法的方式只針對我們政務人員有特別的特色有特別的特性有需要補強之處加以琢磨我們不需要做一個廣泛的這個立法那我們也整體來講我們希望這個法律能夠是比較遷移的以上 好 謝謝謝謝李教授的發言那接下來我們再請洪偉聖洪律師發言 謝謝"},{"start":11840.137,"end":11861.322,"text":"主席在座的各位這個機關代表專家學者各位先進大家早安那首先還是要表達感謝謝謝大院的邀請有這樣的榮幸來參與這個公聽會那也要說一聲抱歉因為剛才前面有一個會議所以沒有辦法在一開始全程參與所以可能發言的內容或許會有一些這個重複的地方也請大家見諒"},{"start":11862.222,"end":11876.776,"text":"那剛才在場我想針對今天的這個提綱我會分四個方向來做說明第一個是針對政務人員或者是剛才其實大家在討論的過程當中有的時候會談到政務官有的時候會談到政務人員但是"},{"start":11877.686,"end":11893.225,"text":"其實這個本質上就說明了在想要容易一如而言之的這個一個困難性那這邊其實我要對這個包含在這個主席在內的幾位委員願意在這個時候嘗試提出這個法案來"},{"start":11894.306,"end":11913.981,"text":"也要表達一點敬佩因為其實確實我們關於政務人員的法治化是花了非常長的時間一直想要嘗試但是一直都沒有辦法成功那我覺得這些不能夠成功一個很重要的原因在於根本的出發點的認識可能在我剛才聽起來整個公聽會的過程當中"},{"start":11916.363,"end":11938.076,"text":"非常多的專家學者都反映了說我們認為說政務人員要跟政治保持適當的距離或者是說要避免這個可能的參與政治但是這個出發點從首長制或者是民主政治責任政治的角度可能會有一點本質上面的需要再進一步的區隔簡單講剛才聽我在整個公聽會當過程當中我聽起來"},{"start":11942.079,"end":11957.419,"text":"似乎大家對於民主沒有那麼信賴認為說如果說政務人員有這樣子的情況我們的民眾是沒有辦法透過選舉跟這個政治的討喜來排斥這樣子的政黨或者是這樣子的執政黨"},{"start":11958.22,"end":11983.658,"text":"那這個是第一個我覺得我個人稍微比較保留的就是我個人還是對於民主或者是政治過程還是有基本的信心或信賴認為說我們必須要相信人民能夠把這樣子的情況看在眼裡而且他可以透過每一次的選舉尤其台灣的選舉其實不是很常就是這個非常的平凡那我認為說還是要相信人民可以透過一定的政治過程當中來"},{"start":11984.879,"end":12004.822,"text":"來解決這樣子的問題那作為法律人雖然這個我自己是法律人但是我覺得我對於把認為法律的處理手段會好於民主手段或者是政治手段這一點我本身是比較保留的那這邊其實我也要額外提一點就是說其實剛才我們提到政務人員"},{"start":12005.883,"end":12026.786,"text":"這個可能跟等一下我們在定義上也會有關係就是我們必須要清確的認識到說透過民主選舉的首長制是台灣的目前政治制度的核心那在這樣子的情況之下如果說我們認為說要區分那其實民主政治的根本就是說我要透過施政來爭取民眾的認同"},{"start":12027.867,"end":12045.415,"text":"然後獲得下一次選舉的勝利這件事情是民主政治的核心但是我們又想要把施政跟選舉做適度的區分簡單講就是說我們又如果說我們的理念上是希望說施政的政務官你不要參與政治決定跟選舉"},{"start":12046.696,"end":12065.447,"text":"然後競選的人你在競選的過程當中你要跟這個政府團隊要做區隔這樣子的理想可能會導致責任政治跟民主政治上會產生有點脫鉤簡單講就是說我作為施政者我應該要為我的施政負責透過這個方式爭取下一次的選民認同"},{"start":12066.887,"end":12085.715,"text":"繼續獲得執政的權利這樣子的期待跟認識可能就會落空因為我們認為說選舉的人歸選舉的人施政的人歸施政的人這樣的期待可能就會讓這個民主政治跟責任政治斷斂那這個是第一個根本的出發點所以我認為說我的觀察可能會略有不同的部分"},{"start":12086.155,"end":12106.376,"text":"那從這個角度其實就會進到我們提綱當中提到的各點就是說第一點關於這個立專法的必要性的部分我目前觀察到其實各個版本裡面針對可能需要處理的人員其實有不同的規範當然翁委員提到的是跟這個政務人員退職條例是最接近的因為他的範圍是最廣"},{"start":12107.697,"end":12133.613,"text":"但是這個情況其實就是會回到我們到底立法目的裡面到底是希望處理的是哪一個部分比如說目前的這個各個條案其實都看得到有一部分的人員定義為是隨著政治進退要負政治責任簡單講其實他就必須要透過他的施政來爭取下一次的選舉獲得多數選民的信賴繼續執政的這樣子的人員這是第一類的人員"},{"start":12134.594,"end":12155.865,"text":"但是我們目前的這個草案其實都不是只處理第一類的人員它同時包含了另外的兩種人一種是我們透過任命的程序或者是評估剛才其實幾位專家學者也提到譬如說用考試來區分或者是用任命程序來區分那這一類的人員我的觀察其實是我們是希望他"},{"start":12157.445,"end":12174.321,"text":"發揮他的中立性 發揮他的獨立性這一類的人員其實跟第一項的人員就是他其實是必須要負政治責任透過施政來解決來獲取下一次多數選民的認同以獲得繼續執政的他在本質上其實是有非常本質上面的不同"},{"start":12175.302,"end":12197.39,"text":"但是我們現在透過一個政務人員的大的帽子來把它全部要放在一起討論其實本質上我認為就有一些衝突因為在第一項的人員裡面其實我們應該要容許他更多的政治參與或者是更多的政治考量因為他其實就是在民主過程當中必須要實時回應下一次選舉但是第二項的人員也就是獨立"},{"start":12198.43,"end":12214.013,"text":"委員會 中選會等等的他其實是要跟這邊脫鉤的但是我們現在的處理方式是把他用一個政務人員的帽子把他認為是同等的人員同樣看待那我覺得這個其實在定義上其實就會產生一點點的歧義"},{"start":12214.694,"end":12235.745,"text":"那另外一個就是關於中央跟地方而言其實剛才我提到透過民主程序來產生而形成首長制來任命各個政務官這件事情其實不是只有中央政府有在地方政府有統計起來來看其實我們目前在地方政府的這個所謂的政務官的人數遠比中央政府來得高那如果是這樣子的話"},{"start":12236.966,"end":12264.153,"text":"假使我們的考量是要約束他們基於政治考量產生的濫用行政資源的情況那這個考量其實不會只存在於中央政府如果是從這個考量出發的話我們就不會認為說在中央政府跟地方政府必須要做差別善待甚至如果在這個時候排除地方政府的話我們認為說可能會產生平等原則的這個疑慮為什麼基於同樣的考量明明在地方的政務官"},{"start":12264.773,"end":12292.048,"text":"它的情況更多更嚴重的情況之下卻要在這個法律裡面排除地方政府的適用這個其實確實也會產生疑慮那所以從這個角度出發的話其實我個人的淺見會認為說或許還是要回到最原始的出發點就是到底我們希望處理的是那些必須要關注於下一次選舉或者透過施政來爭取下一次的選舉的多數選民認同的人這是我們想要處理的重點"},{"start":12293.048,"end":12311.619,"text":"還是我們想要處理的是他透過了任命程序之後就應該要跟政治過程盡量脫鉤儘管最後要責任政治要負責到底我們想要處理哪些人再來考慮說我們的法律後面要怎麼定那從這邊其實也會連結到跟主管機關有關就是當然我"},{"start":12312.58,"end":12331.196,"text":"我認同就是說過去其實有非常多的這個草案或許都是由考試機關來做出發點來做主管機關但是在目前的草案當中有幾個部分可能要特別注意就是如果從機關的最適功能理論來講其實中間如果涉及到包含安全查核包含品德查核等等的"},{"start":12332.197,"end":12358.144,"text":"這些是不是是完全適合由憲法上主要要主責有考試出身的這些公務人員出發的考試院來管理還是說其實目前手上已經有這些工具政策手段的這些行政院以下的行政部門來處理這個或許還有進一步的考量那另外一個就是說其實如果說我們思考的過程是一直希望讓那些應該獨立"},{"start":12360.124,"end":12384.584,"text":"執行職務的人能夠脫離政治上的干預的話那如果是從這個角度出發的話我個人就會更進一步的對於有考試員來處理會更進一步的保留因為這個法律其實我剛才提到它其實某種程度很想要把應該要負政治責任的部分進一步的讓它法律化那簡單講就是說主管機關如果在這個時候它有可能會"},{"start":12385.825,"end":12410.076,"text":"更進一步的因為這個法治化之後更進一步的設置到政治那如果是從這個角度來出發的話我們認為考試院其實在我們的憲政安排上其實比較是傾向於這個中立性的機關那但是在這個部分他要來處理政務官的政治政治過程或者政治責任因為他已經法治化了我會擔心進一步的把考試院"},{"start":12410.676,"end":12437.966,"text":"捲入了這個政治的過程這個其實是或許進攻這個大院參考那針對具體的這個規定的部分我稍微提兩點就好第一點就是說那個英語免職的規定其實有一些部分好像比我們的常任文官可能來得更當然這個免職的規定其實在如果我們要處理的是獨立機關的話或許有必要因為過去其實有一些情況就是說他因為任期保障反而導致要負責任政治的這個最終的行政首長沒有辦法免職"},{"start":12438.746,"end":12460.641,"text":"或許這個規定是有必要的那但是可能要更謹慎我在最後一分鐘就好不好意思第二個就是說關於我們目前有些草案裡面提到的這個品德查核的部分那這個我會覺得有點擔心就是說到底品德查核最後是由誰來操作會不會因為我們要避免政治上面的考量結果最後因為做品德查核"},{"start":12461.181,"end":12486.39,"text":"他和的關係變成有點像是過去的人惡富弊啊這類的情況而且他是因為他會因此喪失他擔任政務人員的資格那這個到底是由前任來做查核還是現任來做查核其實也有可能變成政治操作的手段那最後作為決議我是覺得還是有幾個請答就是第一個從我剛才角度我剛才提到的政務人員目前看起來是把兩個可能不同考量的部分放在同一個角度裡"},{"start":12487.35,"end":12506.96,"text":"或許還是要像剛才幾位專家提到了或許可以從極簡的角度來出發試著來處理其中部分而不是想要從一部法律來全部處理那另外就是地方目前其實既然有這樣的情況有些或許可以先從政治上的準則出發進一步的來做法律化由下而上那以上進攻大員參考謝謝好謝謝宏大律師的發言"},{"start":12513.502,"end":12533.565,"text":"那麼今天我們所有的專家學者以及登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了那其餘列席的機關代表有沒有需要補充說明的考試院情緒部請問是哪一個機關不好意思監察院好那就那就請來前面發言好了好"},{"start":12538.52,"end":12556.235,"text":"監察院的監察業務處的處長黃處長來請發言是監察院參事鄭旭好是不好意思監察院參事是好請發言主席好各位委員好各位系的專家好補充說明一點監察院院長請假軍系依法辦理以上報告謝謝"},{"start":12563.581,"end":12578.1,"text":"因為太快了我沒有聽清楚可以對然後麥克風拿接近你好不好不好意思再說一遍是這樣監察院院長的請假均系依法辦理以上報告謝謝是依什麼法要講清楚"},{"start":12581.368,"end":12594.98,"text":"現行有效的法規來辦現行有效的法規這就是我一直在每次質詢監察院的時候都沒有講清楚那麼這個也是我對監察院很不滿的地方這有什麼好不敢公開"},{"start":12596.761,"end":12622.107,"text":"大方的講你們到底是依據什麼法規然後現在監察院院長他的薪水是有發還是沒有發包含年終獎金等等的如果說如果已經有交國庫的話這都應該要做報告這應該資訊公開透明可是監察院到現在沒有任何作為都沒有資訊揭露這是我對監察院感到非常很不滿的地方接下來司法院許廷長要報告請"},{"start":12634.914,"end":12656.526,"text":"司法院這邊除了書面報告之外 簡短就是口頭補充說明大法官跟三中省的法院院長都是行使司法權的司法人員有受到憲法81條非受刑事或懲戒處分或是禁制產的宣告不得免職的保障"},{"start":12657.046,"end":12672.804,"text":"那也是屬於法官法第二條第一項所稱的法官那與政務人員是隨是政治任命必須隨政黨進退政策變更而去留的行政官員是不同的"},{"start":12673.505,"end":12696.139,"text":"目前也有專法也就是法官法針對大法官跟三中審法院院長的相關事項有做規定相關的倫理規範跟自律事項也有細緻的規範所以司法院這邊是認為說大法官跟三中審法院院長是應該是沒有以另外一般性的法律規範的必要"},{"start":12696.579,"end":12720.858,"text":"那應該將大法官跟三中審法院的院長就明文排除在這個相關的政務人員法的草案那其他有關於草案的條文的規定的內容這個部分就如書面報告不另外補充那其餘部分就尊重貴院著處以上說明好 謝謝許廳長的報告還有沒有其他好 哪位機關好 請這是哪個機關"},{"start":12725.816,"end":12743.073,"text":"不好意思 請問是哪一個機關全序部全序部的王司長請發言主席 各位議會先進全序部這個地方還是要表達一下就那個主管機關的部分"},{"start":12744.537,"end":12772.511,"text":"就那個主管機關的部分因為憲法現在就是說已經名列考試院的執掌並沒有包括政務人員這一塊那如果把那個政務人員的相關法案就是說規定為那個是考試院的話會跟憲法的規定有點抵觸的一個疑慮這個也是前系部一直在主張說這個不應該是考試院那當然就是說前系部裡面的有一些法規還是會去"},{"start":12775.173,"end":12799.831,"text":"讓政務人員可以適用不過這些都是比較一般的行政規範至於相關戶那些相關政治責任這一塊並不在考試院的職長裡面這裡面有一些委員認為說考試院好像應該要有相關的調查前事實上我們的整個政務體制分工就會不一樣司法的歸司法去管"},{"start":12801.032,"end":12828.271,"text":"那個公務員包括政務人員有違反相關法規他是由懲戒法案來去處理那考試院這邊並沒有調查前各機關人員有違法的話他是先由各機關去調查這個人有沒有違法的一個情況甚至監察案他可以受理人名的一個擠花然後他去透過調查的程序透過彈劾的一個程序來彈劾這些政務官員"},{"start":12828.971,"end":12846.598,"text":"那這些都是在國家整個體系裡面有不同的職權的一個分工那這些分工在憲法裡面其實已經講得很清楚各有所思那今天這個政務人員因為他是屬於憲法明文規定之外屬於考試院的執掌之外考試院的"},{"start":12847.578,"end":12868.934,"text":"執掌在憲法上只列了三款第一款是公務人的考試包括那個專技的一個考試這個是考試院的執掌那另外兩款都是有關公務人員的那個相關情緒事項以及公務人的法治事項這裡面並沒有包括政務人員的相關法治所以這個地方其實就是說剛剛委員也有"},{"start":12869.994,"end":12891.665,"text":"寫者也有提到嘛 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將近3000人那我們看山地原住民山地原住民也是一樣也有類似這樣的情形一到三人的總共有3235人所以他投票給誰啊一開票就知道他投票給誰所以他就變成說"},{"start":115.845,"end":133.918,"text":"會考慮是不是要不要要不要去投票會有這樣的一個情形所以這樣的一個情形怎麼樣去保障憲法徵修條文第10條第12項保障原住民的政治參與政治參與除了參政權之外還有選舉權選舉權本席透過質詢請這個中選會要這個"},{"start":143.956,"end":166.438,"text":"解決秘密投票 質詢了非常非常的多次因為事實上是可以 不修法其實是可以的以公職人員選舉辦人法第57條第三項 原住民公職人員選舉得徵走實際情形 單獨設置投票所"},{"start":167.324,"end":195.669,"text":"或在選舉期內辦理投票事實上只有規定 但是一直沒有辦法落實所以本席不得不修法所以今年 去年12月26號三讀通過為保障原住民秘密投票權益應單獨設置投票然後不受第17條第一項應在戶籍地投票之限制當初在修法的討論的時候"},{"start":197.406,"end":223.569,"text":"中選會還是不支持所以這樣的部分如果這個副教授能夠擔任這個副主委或者是其他的被提名人也能夠擔任委員希望能夠落實這個這次的一個修正的條例可以嗎 可以接下來談不在己投票"},{"start":224.485,"end":251.542,"text":"原住民組的不在己投票事實上最可以先實施的是立法委員因為原住民的立法委員的選區是台澎金所以跟總統一起選舉所以原住民要實施不在己投票是應該最優先來辦理是可以執行的因為我們每一個投票所都有我們的選民"},{"start":253.29,"end":274.469,"text":"都有投票所了就是移轉投票就很容易了因為每個台北市每個都有原住民的投票所所以這個部分是可以先實施的因為沒有實施所以造成我們原住民與非原住民的投票率的差異你想想看以山地原住民來講我們就講第十一屆立委"},{"start":275.567,"end":303.529,"text":"差距13.83%投票率平地原住民是7%多這樣的一個落差就是因為太遠了嘛我們看這個台灣地圖一個住台北市的鄉親他要到蘭嶼投票回去他的戶籍地就很遠嘛不要說蘭嶼啊就到那個屏東到台東都非常非常的遠而且還要到山上啊"},{"start":304.552,"end":331.217,"text":"不是到了台東火車站之後還要到山上所以這個原住民族的不在籍投票更是有它的一個需要性我看了這個印尼 在台灣我們的外勞 印尼的外勞在台灣都是 都投票了就在台灣投票在台灣還不只 不是只有在台北市每個縣市都有投票所"},{"start":332.518,"end":355.109,"text":"像這樣他們都可以受得到這樣的一個情形我們確實做不到我們真的是要加油所以這個部分也希望我們這個副教授以及各位被提名人到了中選會之後能夠優先支持嚴肅民主的不在籍投票 可以嗎可以 沒問題謝謝我們感謝鄭天才"}]}},{"id":"167292","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167292","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d16233343bc1ade6255c72c672141dad9a4e13b340c61ef17a4760fc26950f44b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:44:31 - 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Kagan2010年歐巴馬提名她那這位美國的女性大法官他有一句名言"},{"start":38.359,"end":59.089,"text":"我觉得想要分享给大家也许胡教授您也非常的了解这句名言呢他说my politics would be must be have to becompletely separatefrom my judgment意思是我有我个人的政治意识的形态我有我个人的政治"},{"start":59.798,"end":80.664,"text":"情想或是我的政治主張但是這跟我的判決是完全兩碼子事他是完全會抽離的當他成為大法官的那一天他勢必要專業的去判準他的每一個判決而且依據憲法所以他的politics每個人有自己的politics"},{"start":81.184,"end":99.617,"text":"我有您有每一個委員都有但是當大家被提名成為中選會的委員未來渴望上任的時候請切記超越黨派超越個人的政治意識形態首先合法是必要的我相信胡教授非常同意這位Elena 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例如我舉個例子我們要鼓勵民眾到金門消費金門住宿 金門旅遊他如果是消費的是跟金門當地居住那貨物的部分呢 貨物都從台灣來但是貨物的話 基本上如果在當地消費我給他免業稅對不對那如果他帶回去那一段還是要收沒有那一段不用講就是說進來的時候 進口到金門台灣進口到金門這段還是要收啊"},{"start":230.314,"end":255.19,"text":"因為我們加值稅的概念就是它的加值來測稅如果把免營業稅改成零稅率這個部分來講那就等於在台灣加值也都免稅啦就是改成零稅率因為這個細項我們討論過很多次了把它改成零稅率的話事實上對這個整個稅損來講也沒有什麼改變沒有什麼很大的影響你可以整個再算一下對整個你們整個負稅署的整個國家這個稅來講"},{"start":257.631,"end":270.543,"text":"根本沒有什麼很大的差別你是不是可以再具體算一下因為現在營業稅根據財政收支劃反修正之後其實大部分都是地方稅了那變成說去免了之後會變成其他的地方那這樣子你就更不用擔心嘛那就是我們自己來承擔嘛這會變稅收分配的問題它會變成本島的人就是說"},{"start":277.91,"end":297.129,"text":"如果說這個你說到時候都會變成是地方的損失好不好他分配因為我們採訪有修過以後那這個部分應該你們就要比較樂觀其成應該比較尊重當地的想法吧我們尊重我們要因為這個稅損最後是地方政府地方的縣市政府來吸收那地方的產業的反應"},{"start":298.75,"end":306.456,"text":"那這樣子這一塊如果我們修成這樣子你們應該就比較對中央根本沒什麼影響啊是金門縣自己來吸收對當地的產業才有幫助啊因為退它不是從它是等於退本島的稅它不是退金門當地的稅"},{"start":315.423,"end":323.909,"text":"就是原來的那個政策對金門就沒有實際幫助沒關係你再研究一下因為這個現在財化改變我可以再研究你再研究一下好嗎這個我跟你討論過很多次現在是把免改成零稅率地方的產業覺得這樣子有幫助你研究一下來 下一個我們講那個離島自貿區民進黨都說這個會變成稀產地的破口那個關乎什麼事你看請問現在的自貿港很多地方都有自貿港基隆 台北 蘇澳 桃園 台中 安平都有"},{"start":344.942,"end":364.376,"text":"這監管單位是不是你們關務署啊報告委員是有關如果是貨物的一個監管對自貿區這些都是你們在管的嗎是是嗎那如果金門設這個自貿區就是自貿港的話是不是你們就會在金門是不是就會變成稀產地破口意思說你們財政部關務署在金門就不會把關是不是"},{"start":365.457,"end":370.478,"text":"跟委員報告就是如果說這邊在離島有設置這個所謂的自貿區的話那當然主管機關如果已經有同意的話我們海關針對我們所負責的部分我們會你們還是會照照原來的標準去把關嘛對不對你們會特別放水嗎"},{"start":384.002,"end":407.58,"text":"你們會特別放水嗎在金門地區依照我們的職責我們會配合研議相關的這個房子如果設立的話你們會對金門地區的進來的貨物特別放水讓他就可以隨便的去洗產地啊什麼隨便這樣亂進亂出海關還是會依照我們的職責你們還會遵守原來法令造牆執行那為什麼那所以我們提這個芝麻港這個怎麼會變成洗產地的破口"},{"start":408.3,"end":417.254,"text":"你又不會對金門特別睜一隻眼閉一隻眼或是金門進來的貨物可以隨便的不經過海關的眼皮子下就可以隨便放行那為什麼在金門社就會有這個問題那這個當然不是你回答的但是來"},{"start":422.472,"end":451.045,"text":"這個吼我們立法經濟條例要修這個有關自貿區這個部分如果三讀通過我會想請您去評估一下如果我們這個條例三讀通過以後比照現在在各個自貿區所偵測的一些監管設備人力源的總共需要多少要多多少設備要多多少人才可以讓你們達到完全監管的這個監管完全監管的這個效果請您跟我們提出一個評估報告好嗎可以嗎人力啊物力啊到底需要多少才能把這個地方管好嘛"},{"start":452.145,"end":462.568,"text":"不要讓他變成稀產地的地方嘛你可以幫我們做一個評估嗎如果我們修正通過以後啦現在已經進負二族了如果修正通過以後你們應該要增加人力物力嘛需要多久時間可以評估出來需求我們盡量來評估啦但是因為現在也不確定說到底我跟你講我如果立法院就三族通過你要做一點評估嘛"},{"start":479.608,"end":503.861,"text":"是不是因為你們可能就需要更多的人更多的對不對設備啊是不要讓金門背上這種汙名啊海關要好好的執行啊是吧可以可以多久可以評估給我現在是1月2月了3月底前給我可以嗎2月有過年放假3月底前給我是覆稅稅也是一樣好嗎那個免稅率的部分一個月"},{"start":506.132,"end":515.055,"text":"沒有 三月底前給我就好了二月過年嘛 三月嘛三月底嘛 可以喔好 那主計總署啊請時間等一下 主計請主計總署 蔡副主議長那兩位可以回座了這個副主計長你們沒有依法行政"},{"start":533.059,"end":552.57,"text":"這個財力分財力集市表就這個分級表裡頭財力分域表裡頭這個表裡頭你們下面的標註是說各職教師或縣市政府的自由財源之自由財源比率稅數以最近三個年度的決算審定數計算稅率以最近三個年度決算審定數加計財政收支方法修正透中央統籌分配稅款的影響數計算"},{"start":554.011,"end":576.199,"text":"對吧 這個是明文規定的嘛那第四條齁 這個第四條也有規定補助辦法第四條110年8月29日也有規定說是用三年分配五級 每三年檢討一次嘛那自由財產比率是什麼意思這個都明文規定了齁那如果按照你們的辦法這三年來檢討一次的話就沒有所謂什麼財政收支方法修正後中央統籌分配稅款的影響數啊"},{"start":578.735,"end":597.703,"text":"你們幹嘛推翻自己剛剛修訂的辦法然後任意加上這些什麼中央統籌分配稅款影響數你知道我在說什麼嗎你知道我在說什麼你們為什麼不依法行政任意的想把哪個縣市政府改成第幾級就第幾級我們金門縣本來第三級把我們改到第二級沒有依法行政啊組織單位最應該依法行政啊對不對"},{"start":600.364,"end":609.668,"text":"為什麼報告陳委員那個條文去年8月給縣市條文後面有說明去年114年8月29日有修訂對不對"},{"start":613.43,"end":639.791,"text":"那你們現在加計這個同桌稅款的這個影響數就是把如果一級譬如像這種離島像離島這種地方比較窮的地方然後拿到突然拿到比較多的救濟這種稅款然後就拿來跟富人富人去像台北市這種地方相提並論然後變相處罰我們那讓高雄啊台南啊原來這個才導致高雄台南到第四五級進門台東變成一二級這樣有合理嗎"},{"start":640.672,"end":650.738,"text":"這個是不合理的啊 你們最近修訂這個分級是完全不合理啊沒有依法行政啊是 因為我們在那個 怎麼辦咧帶頭違法怎麼辦咧"},{"start":655.39,"end":676.597,"text":"包委員 沒有違法啦沒有違法 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我再提一個就是說像一般消費性一些消費端的視角比如說我們現在常常在有些自動停車就路邊停車自動那些機器人無人商店還有自動販賣機這一些它有一些我自己就碰到就是說我要去刷載具沒有刷不到 感應不到就在那邊等 等紙本的它跑紙本的這個發票出來"},{"start":256.118,"end":267.589,"text":"有些甚至就是就是就是常常發生這種事甚至沒有發票也有所以他到底是設備障礙就是說他沒有更新還是說因為現在這種這種情況從雖然我們財政部規定112年開始說自動販賣機應該要逐筆開立發票但實際走訪很多我自己碰到了常常停車路邊停車還是停車場裡面那要去取車的時候"},{"start":279.46,"end":299.815,"text":"要去刷 有些新的它就會有我們載具的一個感應沒有的話就在那邊只有用按鈕去按然後輸入信用卡然後就是給我們那紙本的這種情況所以能不能 我想既然是要推廣就不是說只是發新聞稿還是這樣子我們應該說針對這些有設備障礙的這些廠商或者業者陳人部的要用什麼樣的作為來督促他們另外"},{"start":309.141,"end":336.012,"text":"雖然普及了啦但是老實說因為很多業者還是不願意不是不願意啦實在太忙了實在太忙他們就說第一線還是很多不少很多的業者他沒有跟進沒有跟進不是做不到啦是覺得說太麻煩所以對於這些中小企業小店鋪來講其實多一個系統就多一份人力就多一些這個工作量所以說我想部長就是說希望財政部能夠全面的去稽查"},{"start":336.872,"end":349.593,"text":"各個販賣機是否已經符合法規這些另外是不是建立一個網站讓民眾可以來幫助你們一起檢查讓發票載具能夠全面落實這個建議可以嗎"},{"start":350.798,"end":372.538,"text":"委員很好我想我們一定會加強因為其實我們也知道有時候在停車去停車場停車那個收費機有些可以少那個條碼有些不具有這樣的一個功能那讓你覺得想要少而沒有辦法少那個是很扼腕的一件事情那我想我們的國稅局以及所屬的都會加強去做而且我們也會有計劃讓我們希望"},{"start":374.42,"end":390.631,"text":"真正能夠深入到商家裡面去然後輔導他然後來運用謝謝部長這一個重要的就是說目前財政部新增就是2月1號要上路的新制就是入境旅客可免稅攜帶兼衛福部"},{"start":395.375,"end":421.674,"text":"這個核定通過健康風險評估的指定菸品就是加熱菸我們就直接講加熱菸那上限是200支當然這些相關的規範我們都很支持但是現在一定要跟民眾講清楚因為現在新聞標題新聞標題都是說財政部預告入境吸加熱菸200支免稅然後國稅國健署警告帶回國內最高罰500萬"},{"start":424.002,"end":445.847,"text":"200支免稅然後你帶回國內最高罰500萬所以這個民眾老實講第一眼看不懂就會出問題了就會出問題了所以這個財政部大多數認為說財政部已經公告了入境可以攜帶免稅的菸品200支但是另外國際署說要罰500萬又說不行所以這部分"},{"start":446.767,"end":460.771,"text":"部長說明之前我是不是可以直接講一個把他就說你這樣子是不是告訴我們說只可以國人回國的時候在台灣的機場免稅店台灣的機場免稅店購買加熱煙瓶因為他是經過國健署合格的衛福部認可的然後200支免稅可以帶進來因為如果假設他從日本他從其他國家"},{"start":472.955,"end":487.941,"text":"的機場免售店買好之後帶到國內他也不知道這個菸品跟台灣通過的菸品是不是一致裡面的成分是不是一致品相是不是一致所以如果他從日本帶加熱菸到海來可是到海關被攔查說這個連內容不符品相不符就被罰五萬到五百萬"},{"start":497.011,"end":501.414,"text":"所以是不是說 我們的國人回國之後在機場免稅店 台灣的機場免稅店買200支的加熱煙免稅可以帶進來只限台灣的機場免稅店 是不是這樣"},{"start":513.69,"end":522.413,"text":"不是這樣說因為我們在台灣可以銷售的是要經過衛福部健康風險評估的那機場銷售的呢那機場如果要銷售當然就是說我們台灣的免稅店的機場當然是要販售當然是要經過經過我們的健康風險評估的"},{"start":532.416,"end":542,"text":"才可以我們這邊的公告只是就法規的部分因為菸品有很多譬如說有捲菸有止菸我們只是捲一個免稅的數量部長這樣問題會複雜化我們只講一個很單就加熱菸因為只有台灣這樣子規定那我們現在可以200支菸可以帶進來免稅200支200支菸那是必須要符合台灣我們這個"},{"start":559.986,"end":568.59,"text":"健康風險評估管制的這些煙品那只有台灣的機場深層艙機場裡面專賣的這些加熱煙就是符合所以在這邊買沒問題絕對不會觸法是不是這樣要很明確的很清楚的委員您說的沒有錯那還有要特別說明就是說目前國外在銷售的部分都沒有經過台灣的健康風險評估所以你帶進來可能有衛福部這裡面所提到的罰款的問題"},{"start":589.56,"end":619.14,"text":"對嘛 所以我說要很明確嘛 不然他他怎麼 他在社交平台說 菸品有八款 十款那明明是八款 十款 我在日本也看到我在韓國也看到 我就直接帶回來 同樣的嘛對不對 可是他帶回來就被罰了你台灣有賣這個產品 賣這個商品那我從國外帶回來 結果就被罰了你說 我可以帶兩百支然後呢 我怎麼知道 另外的說要罰五萬到五百萬是又 又 又 就所以我告訴 我跟部長講說我們第一眼就要讓民眾看得懂"},{"start":619.82,"end":641.409,"text":"不然的話你會害他們處罰所以這個很重要所以我們今天就是說部長也為我們說明了我們只能夠買國內的通過的菸品然後呢在台灣的免稅店機場的免稅店購買的加熱菸品就是符合規定的不會受罰就這樣子對不對謝謝您說的很清楚對好的謝謝謝謝部長謝謝委員好謝謝袁寬恆委員"},{"start":650.291,"end":651.321,"text":"接下來我們請王世堅委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167296","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167296","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d7c6e5d0cec60df1411b3bb87f1b5dc7aa4e13b340c61ef17dab1372d823571c45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"12:08:08 - 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葉元芝委員 葉元芝委員不在請蔡易瑜委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d119b3c65799ce25811b3bb87f1b5dc7aa4e13b340c61ef170d19e8fa393994795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:00:06 - 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部長好我們針對於統一發票這個給獎的辦法第16條裡頭規定統一發票中獎資獎金各項宣傳資料調查及稽查的這個費用"},{"start":24.856,"end":37.446,"text":"檢舉之獎金統一發票發售及專責單位所需的經費由全年營業稅收入總額中提出3%以之因應對不對"},{"start":41.127,"end":63.841,"text":"是的依照我們第16條的規定但是我們看到從110年到113年營業稅10增數年都大幅的超過預算數那財政部呢你都是以預算數的3%來編列獎金對於超增的部分並沒有補題本期統計了4年累計"},{"start":68.263,"end":84.9,"text":"超額高達86億元為什麼沒有提呢請做說明我們是根據營業稅法裡面的規定也就是說它的統一發票給獎的經費是由全年營業稅收入總額中提出3%"},{"start":86.081,"end":101.222,"text":"那所谓全年营业税收入那么我们在编列这个要发奖金的经费的时候编税出预算那我们就用税入预算里面的营业税的全国总全国营业税总收入的预算案数的3%来编列"},{"start":102.003,"end":105.105,"text":"這個是總預算數啊但是你實際上你是超徵啊你四年超徵了86億啊營業稅的收入有超過預算數也有比預算數來的少像114年到12月底我們的出租就少了200多億"},{"start":119.091,"end":139.197,"text":"所以我們是用預算案數來編那麼你的實徵數事實上要到年底才知道然後如果你到年底才會知道所以我在編這個稅出預算的時候我並不知道沒有辦法掌握到真正的一個實徵數你不知道所以本席依照我們的法律的規定統一發票給獎辦法第16條規定就是你這一個年度你的這個營業稅額總稅額的這個"},{"start":149.12,"end":162.915,"text":"3%嘛那你既然也知道到年底你就會知道有超徵多少那你要把它補啊你為什麼不補呢那不然你這個4年的86億那3%你拿去做什麼"},{"start":164.258,"end":187.835,"text":"第一個收入增加以後當然是進公庫跟委員報告這個部分我們會按營業稅的收入會按財化法的規定撥歸地方政府撥歸地方政府那部分是歸中央那財化法修正以後扣掉3%的獎金跟1.5%基金全部都到地方政府去了我沒有拿去做什麼我也不能拿去做什麼部長"},{"start":190.317,"end":206.844,"text":"我們針對條文第16條來討論嘛這個不是你播到哪裡的問題嘛是法本身的精髓嘛所以本席要請教如果你以會計技巧來消化超真要不要檢討"},{"start":208.564,"end":233.449,"text":"用会计技巧我们是依法行政除了您刚刚讲的办法之外在营业税法里面是这样规定它的经费是有全年营业税收入总额中3%来提利所以我在编税入跟税出的时候我就用这样一起编下去的这个不是说你编而是你在执行的时候你明明有超征嘛这个本席认为违背了制度的原意"},{"start":234.409,"end":249.715,"text":"所以部長本席具體建議你必須要將超徵的部分要補題這個對社會大眾的小確幸啊才不會抹掉了嘛對不對依法16條的精髓就是如此嘛對不對你要把它補足這個是人民的小確幸啊"},{"start":257.23,"end":272.495,"text":"需要一個均衡那如果超過的要補足那減少的部分那我們要收回嗎應該不可能我想委員也不希望是這樣那我覺得認為我們歷年來都是用這樣的一個在執行所以就是因為以往沒有超增所以就是因為以往沒有超增但是我們累積看了有這麼多的超增所以必須要去檢討超增的部分應該要補足你去檢討"},{"start":283.979,"end":289.225,"text":"好不好 對不對接下來本集要請教我們現在1月13號公布的2025年總稅收是3.7515兆那比這個預算數是短增了505億"},{"start":301.096,"end":316.025,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況之下你主要我們看到是因為美國對等關稅的衝擊還有房市信用管制壓制交易的這些因素那麼所以但是我們在其中可以看到的證交稅"},{"start":317.306,"end":333.273,"text":"證交稅是因為股市創新高了成交量放大然後你達到了全年是2928億這個部分那也創歷史新高也就是年增了48億那顯示在我們的整個結構裡頭這個仰賴在股市的表現"},{"start":339.255,"end":360.009,"text":"是非常的重在你公布的2025年的這個部分那所以財政穩定性呢它是不是足夠穩定在這樣子的一個樣態裡頭所以請教部長2025年首度的短徵那同時在稅收方面呢集中在證交稅的這個樣態那麼你們認為這個有沒有稅收的一個結構風險請做說明"},{"start":367.314,"end":386.675,"text":"跟委員報告在我們的稅收裡面正交稅其實佔的比例並不高他大概就2000多億那佔的最大宗的是營所稅跟中所稅是最大的一個大宗雖然您看到的是數字有短生那至於114年的稅收我們根據到"},{"start":388.657,"end":404.567,"text":"12月底初估是短收全國短收5051但是在1月1號到15號還有個整理期會入帳所以我們會認為呢在全國數的部分今年會短收大概200億上下還是轉收啊達成預算數的99.4%達成99.4%那也跟委員報告在中央的部分呢我們大概達成率如果加上整理期的話可以達到98.9%"},{"start":417.555,"end":446.507,"text":"那差距数大概是300亿上下那也跟委员报告这其中呢因为有美国对等关税我们有实施所谓的延分期所以大概有500多亿本来应该是要在114年收起的但是因为让我们的所谓的营业人受到冲击的他可以申请延分期大概有500多亿会延后到114年以后收入所以主要是这个原因如果没有这个原因其实今年是跟我们的预算数几乎是齐平"},{"start":446.727,"end":463.201,"text":"所以對於美國對等關稅的一個衝擊也就是本期非常的重視我們必須務必顧我們的產業這是非常的重要一定要去均衡我們整個稅收的向下對不對好 謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊瑩委員 謝謝接下來請謝伊鳳委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167288","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167288","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67dbe08e913ac5052da11b3bb87f1b5dc7ae2c12228464ea44c0d8c7324e0a01dc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:13:55 - 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那我們雲端發票使用率在今年度2026年我們有沒有信心可以突破到70% 到達七成"},{"start":70.823,"end":92.879,"text":"這個部分我們持續的要成長但常常我們會超過我們的KPI有沒有機會有沒有信心努力中多一點獎金然後多一點宣傳然後多一點主訴說不定就有了我們的成長除了政府之外其實還有商家"},{"start":93.339,"end":112.159,"text":"那當然我們設定目標嘛我們總是每一年都有預定的目標嘛那有沒有機會突破七成有沒有信心突破七成我們朝這個目標來前進努力好我給你們期望只是七成啦部長我相信你有這個能力我相信同仁有這個能力部長"},{"start":113.259,"end":129.131,"text":"除了雲端載具之外我剛剛聽到您回答宗嘉賓委員說我們有愛心的電子發佈有愛心碼沒關係你業務繁忙你不知道有愛心碼這件事情但是你過去有看到那個知道有愛心碼只是沒有家住"},{"start":131.073,"end":140.097,"text":"沒有加進去 你沒有加進去過你沒有加進去 但你都知道過去我們去全家7-11都看到有一個桶子過去那個發票塞進去滿滿那個是實體的發票 雲端發票也可以加進來"},{"start":145.92,"end":173.06,"text":"對 現在我們有多一個愛心嘛那我們除了捐贈發票給弱勢團體我們過去有在推動條碼有限愛心無限我們有愛心溫度計的網站這個愛心溫度計的網站可以看到我們現在多少張已經累積了多少的愛心就可以看到那個數字那愛心捐贈的發票數量部長你知道到今年度就去年這一年度你知道有多少張比例是多少"},{"start":173.8,"end":187.048,"text":"同仁可不可以幫協助一下因為部長過去對愛心碼他沒有加入他可能沒有關注到這個數字比例是多少 有多少張114年度已經達到1億1300多萬張那比例是多少"},{"start":192.799,"end":212.042,"text":"比例啊 要除一下全部發票那沒有關係 我時間有限部長 如果你過去你也沒有用愛心碼捐過那你就知道更何況你是主辦機關更何況大部分的民眾他就更多人不知道有愛心條碼可以"},{"start":212.683,"end":225.081,"text":"捐贈這件事情你同意嗎雖然我們現在雲端啊就是載具的使用很多大概普及率非常高但如果連你都沒有加入過更何況一般的民眾所以"},{"start":226.089,"end":250.341,"text":"我要凸顯的就是說過去我們看到國人台灣人其實都愛心滿滿但是我們現在很多的眷目基金會他比照過去長期就收入這個拿到發票收入就減少很多我想你很清楚我在講什麼所以在這些比如說像像創世基金會等等好多基金他們就感覺說"},{"start":251.782,"end":275.349,"text":"今年的冬天好难过他们过去收入很多可以用这些收入来照顾很多人但是我们现在好像爱心减少事实上不是国人的爱心减少是很多人不知道有爱心码这件事情所以我们现在载具使用虽然已经普及率高达七成但是我们爱心捐赠码的使用率"},{"start":276.169,"end":279.531,"text":"雖然剛剛還有報出一個數字但使用率事實上是不夠高的部長你同意我的說法嗎愛心碼那個當時是因為我們推動雲端發票那有些社福團體認為我們推動雲端發票以後它能夠收集到的實體發票就少了因為大家都到雲端所以我們就推出所謂的愛心碼那這個愛心碼表示是說消費者他有固定的要去捐"},{"start":305.771,"end":319.662,"text":"對 但是就是很多過去大家隨手去全家買一個東西就捐一張發票但是很多人沒有設這個愛心碼所以他就不知道說他也可以捐贈對 所以就是說我們現在對於愛心碼的推動這個數字我覺得是不夠普及不夠高的所以也相對的影響到很多慈善團體他們的收入所以可以照顧的人減少很多"},{"start":334.233,"end":338.876,"text":"這個部分我們可以再加強的宣導讓大家知道運用包括創世基金會在113年也就只有4100多萬張短少六成所以部長謝謝你剛剛回應我說我們來想辦法來推廣那我的重點就要回過頭來跟部長討論就是說我們推廣用什麼樣的方式來推廣"},{"start":357.368,"end":374.61,"text":"現在很多的志工包括像創世基金會走在街頭 走在市場鼓勵大家捐或者是糖寶寶基金會在寒風當中做餅乾其實財務上是雪上加霜但是只要我們有一個更有力的宣傳方式我相信那個愛心碼"},{"start":375.971,"end":392.849,"text":"很快的政府主動推動來做就很多人會知道那我今天會在質詢過程當中我就希望部長可以承諾譬如說比照雲端發票我們也可以有增加愛心捐贈獎這件事情就是說我們不管有多少的"},{"start":393.63,"end":413.948,"text":"我們不管有多少的組數我們留一組組數也一兩組組數這組數多少我不管就是說你只要捐我我固定比例我從裡面也推出來這不會增加你的預算金額只是組數做了一些我保留一小部分的組數來鼓勵大家捐愛心捐贈"},{"start":415.869,"end":436.285,"text":"當然方法很多你是主辦機關你去想但是我覺得比照這幾年很多慈善基金會卻是基金會他們現在收入短少六成以上連買尿布成人指尿布的錢都不夠我覺得我們應該有不同的策略跟方法來做部長我們可不可以朝這樣方式去進行人家會想說我們這個部長是愛心部長是媽祖婆部長"},{"start":440.388,"end":463.992,"text":"對於一些慈善基金會來說所以在不增加你的預算之下我們有一部分的主訴來去做一些調整我們可不可以朝這樣的方向去進行跟委員報告我想我們都鼓勵用發票來做愛心那我相信除了這個之外做愛心的方式有很多捐發票是途徑之一平常也有很多人在捐但是要有方法"},{"start":464.832,"end":485.271,"text":"鼓励大家做很多政策要达到目的要有一定的工具来处理我刚刚是举一个例子来鼓励你们来做你们还有其他的方式我觉得因为对于现在大家从云端捐发票爱心其实我们看到其实推的是不够的你也同意包括连你自己都没有设定"},{"start":487.273,"end":510.397,"text":"所以怎麼樣用什麼樣的方法讓民眾有這個意願推廣他推廣他我們要有一定的工具跟手段來處理所以在這邊我要求就是說是不是署長可以朝這樣方式部長可以朝這樣方式去規劃並且一個月之內我們提供出一些你們實質的做法出來我們來評估一下那我相信也不是說沒有填愛心碼的人就沒有愛心"},{"start":511.017,"end":526.596,"text":"當然 但是要透支她不知道包括妳自己都不知道說可以用愛心碼嗎我知道 但是我有固定我有相關的捐款的方式是對嘛 但是愛心碼可以直接捐嘛我連妳都沒有帶頭試用我就會覺得非常可惜"},{"start":530.14,"end":549.973,"text":"好部長我我我還有其另外一個問題要請教您哦就是說哦因為剛才林思明招委有問到就是說呃我們現在在編這個營業稅的部分有固定的有3%要拿來做這個這個發票的獎金跟呃相關的一些行政的費用但是因為每一年我們的"},{"start":551.714,"end":568.68,"text":"營業稅的收入高高低低所以這幾年包括像去年我們就是營業稅包括有短徵的狀況包括我們的好幾個稅收都有短徵的狀況我們接下來你那個營業稅的部分你怎麼去出口因為經濟成長"},{"start":570.38,"end":587.281,"text":"並不等於營業稅的收入增加我想你同意我的說法雖然我們這幾年經濟暢旺但是很多我們出口其實還有他可以退稅的所以經濟成長並不等於營業稅增加所以這個會不會在你們你們在預估那個稅入的時候"},{"start":588.695,"end":605.854,"text":"是不是你像今年你又編會比較高你今年編多少我看看你今年編的好像又比較高你又高你今年編的是比較高你去年是你去年短編了嘛去年是短編但你今年編的成長數是高的"},{"start":606.846,"end":629.421,"text":"去年114年事實上我們的營業稅的實增數是低於預算數到目前到12月底為止初步的統計是短收了288億那你今年為什麼會編在115年的時候115年我們在估的時候當然我們會在估的時候會考慮諸多因素最主要是消費的成長你認為今年消費會成長115年我們是根據消費的一個情況來做處理的"},{"start":637.766,"end":661.771,"text":"那你去年有没有预估错你去年也预估错因为去年是短少所以部长还有出口多的话会要做退款的那个退税部长但是你之前还开了记者会信誓旦旦说我们今年我们中奖数会增加我们中奖金额也增加所以那个时候信心满满到后来我们发现说去年"},{"start":662.731,"end":685.417,"text":"虽然经济成长不错但是因为营业税跟经济成长营业税的所得跟经济成长是两件事情所以不等于经济成长所以委员说明我们编的时候是虽然我们后来时增数是短编但是我们在奖金的部分是按预算按数并没有因为短增而受影响所以这个部分是这样的是因为大院删除了我"},{"start":685.737,"end":706.762,"text":"有三減我們的預算所以這個部長這跟大院因為這是按照稅入你實際的稅入來去做編列我們的稅出有被砍的是被砍的所以就有一些但是會按照實際金額來處理但是你明年像以今年度來說你是預估會成長對今年是成長然後也會增加加開主數對"},{"start":708.53,"end":724.058,"text":"那万一如果今年的结果是减少呢那你就再减实际的结果我们也不会减少我们的发放奖金如果时增数低于预算案数我们也不会去减少开奖的主数"},{"start":725.48,"end":748.292,"text":"因為我們預算案數就已經把它編下去了所以不會因為實際的結果而有減少好 謝謝部長那我還是期待我的愛心發票的部分一個月之內我們提出一些政策跟方法鼓勵大家加入愛心嘛讓我們青年度所有的慈善基金會不再感覺冬天那麼寒冷部長來帶頭來鼓勵譬如說我們多增加一個愛心捐贈獎來抽抽看"},{"start":753.536,"end":759.744,"text":"固定的比例來去做一些調整固定的主數來做一些調整 可以嗎我們評估一下 好不好好 謝謝部長謝謝委員好 謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢謝謝 部長請回接下來請閻寬恆委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167287","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167287","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d8e9c4295b23fe087f4fe19c94b211847e2c12228464ea44cf710d25578a6b90f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:16:00 - 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這樣跟游教授請教一下在我們選罷法裡面有規定如果要罷免的話要一年之後才能夠進行那你覺得當初選罷法會這樣子規定的原因是什麼為什麼不是立刻選完之後就可以搞罷免一定要一年後我猜想立法者大概也意識到這個"},{"start":35.799,"end":59.311,"text":"不要讓這個當選完之後立刻面臨當選人被罷免的情境不要說這個讓人家輸不起就搞罷免嘛應該是這樣吧總是要讓人家做個一年看看做得好或不好再來決定要不要罷免但是在這個李靖勇前主委在這邊我也問過他一樣的問題他說沒有不可以啊"},{"start":60.053,"end":81.852,"text":"現在的法律是沒有不可以啊換句話說如果我選上了輸給我的人輸不起他可能覺得說他在選舉過程當中有什麼失誤或他覺得他想要再拚翻盤的機會他在敗選的隔天他跟他的團隊就可以來搞罷免這個是我們現在法律規定就是這樣嗎您的看法"},{"start":83.268,"end":107.851,"text":"我看怎麼詮釋啦我覺得選舉結束之後如果有國民不滿選舉結果不滿當選人所以他會對他講出很多負面的話說要罷免等等等等那是屬於言論自由的範圍言論自由當然都尊重但是如果是由敗選的那一方或其政黨"},{"start":108.832,"end":129.885,"text":"在背後煽動發起的你覺得這有符合民主的常態嗎因為以目前的法律的規定事實上也是一年之後才能夠進行罷免像中選會才能夠 可是問題是輸的人他可以在輸的隔天就開始規劃 煽動然後搞大罷免嘛"},{"start":130.265,"end":158.021,"text":"我們去年看到的狀況就是這樣雖然民進黨嘴巴不講是他們發動的但柯建民總召就很誠實嘛他在接受媒體訪問的時候就說在投票的隔天還是隔兩天就去找過賴總統啊這在他媒體訪問公開講的啊怎麼透過罷免去扭轉國會的席次嘛在我們那一區包括我們國民黨很多立委的選區都一樣啊發動罷免推動罷免最用力的就是輸的那一方嘛我那一區就是這樣啊"},{"start":158.888,"end":177.649,"text":"他的我在那個罷免說明會我有公開資料啊他輸給我的那個立委的服務處主任沒多久就成立了一個就加入一個這個罷免的社團在推動然後不然就是想要取而代之的民進黨的人主要在推動嘛那這是民主常態嗎你覺得是嗎"},{"start":178.963,"end":192.413,"text":"當然不是 這是政治問題啦對啊 那問題是法律規範不嚴謹或中選會的按住就會造成這樣反民主的狀況出現嘛所以如果說您當主委當然中選會是辦選務的機關但您也是洞見觀瞻啊"},{"start":197.616,"end":225.286,"text":"如果是您的話 您覺得要怎麼去結合您的未來的職務讓這種反民主的狀況繼續發生我們只能夠依法行政 就中選會的角度來講但是以我作為一個政治學者的角度來講我長期以來反對在國會議員的層次 立委來存在一個罷免制度因為全世界先進民主國家沒有哪一個國家的國會議員"},{"start":227.54,"end":252.79,"text":"美國的聯邦參議員 眾議員當選之後面臨被罷免沒有的 制度上就不存在這種可能性但是台灣也許這個就是說在孫中山先生的思想底下然後去制定的選舉罷免創制復建那個是這樣子因為我們國家不可能沒有罷免因為走到這一步不可能沒有罷免"},{"start":253.97,"end":279.015,"text":"應該是怎麼去完善那個罷免的制度比如說現在因為罷免的門檻比較低它只要兩成五嘛所以就會讓選輸的人覺得有機可乘怎麼透過大罷免去扭轉剛剛產生的民意這就是我覺得制度造成的漏洞但是大罷免結果其實對社會非常傷害像我們那一區就出現非常多的對立包括家庭"},{"start":280.616,"end":306.703,"text":"長輩跟子女之間也因為立場不一樣罷免的仇恨的煽動彼此不和甚至有女兒離開家庭都有我覺得這個是當初發動大罷免的人他可能沒有顧慮到那麼多但這絕對不會只是政治的問題這是整個社會的問題它會影響到整個社會因為我覺得這個事情是非常嚴重沒有正當性的罷免那時候罷免我的被推出來的領銜人用了一個理由"},{"start":307.737,"end":316.633,"text":"2023年葉元之怎麼樣怎麼樣所以要罷免葉元之我2024才做立委就是說因為剛選完就要搞罷免他也找不出什麼理由他就是這樣隨便亂講這個就是罷免制度的漏洞"},{"start":320.243,"end":337.581,"text":"我們對未來的主委或是現在的游教授充滿了期待覺得到時候如果在一些法令的解釋、詮釋甚至改革上面希望說您可以更積極的去讓我們的台灣更民主、更健全我一定會這麼做好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167290","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167290","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67df07ebb04eda2519411b3bb87f1b5dc7ae2c12228464ea44c51e308782cc5e3445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:37:49 - 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沒有兌獎有的是根本眼睜睜的看著 明明中獎但是因為電子發票他沒有去歸戶"},{"start":152.515,"end":170.058,"text":"我沒有歸戶的結果也有很多民眾這樣子領不到痛失獎金而且這個歷史越來越多金額也都滿大的所以我的看法就是說乾脆就成立基金專戶那政府也不用"},{"start":171.968,"end":190.459,"text":"虧民間嘛啊民間也不去占政府的便宜就是該多少那我們有的是下個年度十增金額才出來的那就歸到這個裡面嘛大家慢慢計算嘛不是這樣嗎 你的看法呢"},{"start":192.333,"end":215.799,"text":"委員是希望成立一個基金專戶不管是短徵的、超徵的或你沒有來對講的通通到這裡面去然後再試情況加徵款項那我要跟委員報告對於沒有對講的款項其實在我們今年裡面如果前面沒有對講但是獎金累積到下半年的時候我們會增開也就是事實上我們還是會把它增加主數"},{"start":216.819,"end":239.431,"text":"還是會有增加我們會把那個沒有來對講的我們會發出去也會把它發出去的那包括那個沒有歸戶的電子發票也是因為他等於沒有來領那沒有歸戶的部分我們希望加強說明那尤其是最近也出現一些就是說他沒有到我們這邊歸戶譬如說用那個電子那個所謂的郵箱"},{"start":240.852,"end":265.573,"text":"的部分 那個電子郵件的部分需要規附那個部長 那時針跟預算的差額那那個怎麼辦光這四年喔 從民國111年到113年我們時針跟預算你預算這個營業稅這個部分啦 差額喔稅收的差額2800億"},{"start":268.934,"end":291.306,"text":"10增啊 我們多增了2800億光這2800億的3%的獎金就86億耶 86億之多耶那你看這個怎麼辦所以啊 我剛剛就說我們就乾脆歸到一個戶頭裡面那就以實質收到的下去計算 你看法呢"},{"start":292.587,"end":293.167,"text":"這百分之三的發票獎金啊"},{"start":311.821,"end":325.812,"text":"是多少民眾大家引領期盼欸就每兩個月就這麼一個小確幸好玩嘛其實倒不是說領了幾千塊幾百塊幸運一點的有上百萬沒錯啊"},{"start":327.333,"end":355.268,"text":"可是那些上百萬的就我們從報章雜誌看到新聞看到的這些大額的上百萬獎金的他們都未歸戶結果也是沒辦法領但是你剛剛這講得很好你說那財政部也君子沒有領的你就把他併到後面你有再下去計算也再次再行發放對獎就對了但是我剛剛跟你講的"},{"start":356.589,"end":365.439,"text":"時增跟預算這個金額的差額光這四年啊稅收差了2800億的總差額那這2800億的3%就我跟你說的86億啊民眾少拿了86億的發票獎金簡單講就是這樣"},{"start":376.728,"end":390.739,"text":"你研究看看好不好我第二個問題要跟你提到的就是希望說這個產生部回去好好的研擬一下也就是說我們從去年開始"},{"start":392.25,"end":412.823,"text":"我們台灣已經進入超高齡社會了我們65歲以上的人口已經佔了總人口數的20%那去年更是我們新生兒子生大概10年前的一半才10萬位而已那像"},{"start":414.546,"end":431.893,"text":"我這個年次那一個年次都大概36萬到38萬你們那個比較年輕啦你們單子也大概來到28萬30萬左右我這種年次三十幾萬一個年次所以這個事情很傷腦筋也有預估"},{"start":433.635,"end":458.951,"text":"有預估人口專家預估就是說我們在2045年我們國家到2045年我們會跌破2000萬人口那到了2070年我們台灣大概剩下1500萬人口我為什麼跟你說這個呢我的意思就是說因為我們的稅收大部分我們著重在"},{"start":460.593,"end":478.292,"text":"這個所得稅啦那因為人口短少勞動人口也減少啦所以這一部分我們的稅收很可能如果我們沒有趕快去預作準備的話這個部分到了某一個關節點我們會大幅的下滑"},{"start":479.053,"end":508.332,"text":"所以我希望說我們財政部能夠針對人口急劇減少人口結構變遷的這個所導致的財政風險要下去做評估也就是說我們針對稅制結構我們去做中長期的模擬中長期模擬說大概到哪一年會怎麼樣到哪一年會怎樣這個部分我不曉得你們有沒有做"},{"start":512.25,"end":528.978,"text":"謝謝委員的提示那對於這個人口的一個減少然後對於稅制整個的結構一定會有影響那目前財政部也已經委託在做一個研究對這個部分有委員做研究那什麼時候會有一個初步的研究的"},{"start":530.919,"end":545.452,"text":"是今年會今年會有這個結果研究報告會出來我簡單講在我們社會大家普遍認為資本家靠資本所得地主們靠這個"},{"start":547.489,"end":575.89,"text":"房屋房產閒置空屋空地所得這一些炒作土地所得等等這一些他們負擔整個社會應有的稅的部分他們負擔的過低我們都把整個國家社會需求所需要的稅收的負擔都是給了我們所有的勞動人口以這一些大家靠辛苦的勞動"},{"start":577.171,"end":601.278,"text":"收入來去支付國家的需要其實這是非常不公平的所以如果我們勞動人口減少那所得稅這一部分的減少的話是不是我們應該加重資本所得比方說那加重這個空屋稅 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麥玉珍 丁學忠委員三人列席官員 大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑暨相關人員內政部常務次長吳唐安暨相關人員中央全局委員會法務部外交部國家安全局國家通訊傳播委員會數位發展部交通部司法院監察院財團法人海峽交流基金會等機關代表暨相關人員主席王昭吉委員美會討論事項審查反滲透法修正草案暨時案討論事項合併詢答委員"},{"start":1675.712,"end":1701.867,"text":"沈博洋 王定宇 黃捷說明提案要旨大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑內政部常務次長吳唐安報告委員蘇巧慧等17人質詢分別由大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑及相關人員國家安全局第三處陳副處長法務部參事謝志明司法院刑事廳法官吳元耀內政部常務次長吳唐安中央選舉委員會法政處處長蔡京高數位發展部法制處副處長吳怡倫答覆說明"},{"start":1702.327,"end":1726.361,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員莊銳雄 林怡瑾 丁學忠 徐欣盈 沈發慧等五人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及位及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢請問各位委員 今天會議記錄有什麼錯誤與疑慮嗎沒有"},{"start":1732.871,"end":1748.001,"text":"議事錄確定我們繼續進行討論署行簽讀審查行政院涵送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單游盈隆為委員並為主任委員胡柏彥為委員並為副主任委員"},{"start":1748.901,"end":1767.209,"text":"黃文玲 李李仲 蘇嘉鴻 蘇紫橋及陳忠義 軍委委員請同意案依序分別審查由被提名人 迎龍胡被提名人 博焱黃被提名人 文玲李被提名人 李仲蘇被提名人 嘉鴻蘇被提名人 紫橋陳被提名人 忠義 宣讀完畢我們來介紹主席的委員跟行政機關列席的委員跟被提名人"},{"start":1786.826,"end":1807.007,"text":"我們先來第一位張志倫委員第二位劉錫廷委員現在進來我們的王鴻薇委員我們現在向正義秘書長張敦漢秘書長"},{"start":1811.314,"end":1816.475,"text":"中央選舉委員會主任委員被提名人游一龍副主任委員被提名人吳柏彥委員提名人比提名人黃文玲"},{"start":1834.541,"end":1842.286,"text":"委員比提名人李立忠委員比提名人蘇嘉鴻委員比提名人蘇志橋委員比提名人陳忠義主任必須謝美玲"},{"start":1863.717,"end":1874.106,"text":"我們行政院林署行政總署培訓考用處處長李花蘇你歡迎"},{"start":1888.137,"end":1895.403,"text":"立法院院會第11屆第4期第16次會議報告交付內政司法及法治兩個委員會審查中央委員會所提出的命令"},{"start":1910.723,"end":1914.604,"text":"兩委員會一位26級辦公廳會以前也已經完成本院各黨團隊被提名人的資格"},{"start":1925.309,"end":1952.296,"text":"事任性所提出的書面問題函請行政院轉致各備提名人經行政院函附各備提名人提出與相關的資料並以檢証於各黨團在案本案審查程序安排在28日、29日兩天一天"},{"start":1954.684,"end":1955.045,"text":"會議分配審查"},{"start":1961.484,"end":1986.661,"text":"本這個會議開始進行前行宣告以下事項先進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明及答詢依程序由行政院張秘書長及游盈隆先生分配說明後進行詢答"},{"start":1988.383,"end":2003.879,"text":"由榮榮先生撥分全部達成結束後 休訓10分鐘再進行提名人胡柏彥先生的署名與答詢程序與定管一樣 並釋放會議"},{"start":2010.325,"end":2033.473,"text":"會議進行的總統職項與程序分別進行比提名人黃文玲、李立中、蘇家鴻、蘇芝喬、陳宗義說明與答詢答詢的時間出席出席委員會六分鐘內席委員會四分鐘"},{"start":2038.835,"end":2044.402,"text":"本院的委員會議定期時間10點半一至本次會議沒有要處理臨時提案現在我們請行政委張秘書長進行說明"},{"start":2065.396,"end":2092.17,"text":"主席在場的各位委員各位先生女士媒體朋友大家早安今天立法院內政跟司法法制委員會聯席審查行政院所提名的七位中選會委員被提名人本人應邀這個列席報告宣感榮幸選舉罷免跟公民投票都是我國國民重要的參政權"},{"start":2093.479,"end":2118.513,"text":"也是憲法保障人民參與公共事務的基本權利台灣透過了一次次選舉罷免或者是公民投票逐步的深化我國的民主憲政為了貫徹憲法保障民主法治及人民參政的主旨總選會秉持超然中立 恪守中立的精神統籌辦理"},{"start":2120.814,"end":2144.737,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免及公民投票的事務持續鞏固公平公正公開的公共事務環境以確保國民意志的展現因此中選會運作是中華民國實現民主核心的機制以下僅就本次的提名作業做簡要的報告跟說明依照中選會組織法"},{"start":2146.496,"end":2174.398,"text":"第三條第一項規定中選會設置9到11個人其中一人為主任委員一人為副主任委員其他的委員7到9位那這次的提名也是依照中選會組織法來進行提名領選具有法證相關的專業經驗的公證人士來擔任委員中有同一個黨籍的不得超過委員總數的三分之一"},{"start":2176.906,"end":2202.011,"text":"那也跟大家報告跟說明依照中選會組織法的規定中選會除了主任委員跟副主任委員之外其餘經為兼職無給職那這次的提名也依照這樣的規定來進行跟辦理那麼第二個說明是中選會前主任委員李靖勇副主任委員陳昭健委員許惠峰 陳恩明 王韻如"},{"start":2203.277,"end":2218.411,"text":"徐亞芬等六人的任期已經在去年的11月3日屆滿另外委員蒙志成也因為個人的因素而提早請辭所以這一次行政院提名游英龍為委員並為主任委員"},{"start":2220.509,"end":2247.442,"text":"胡柏諺為副主任委員並為委員委員包括了黃文玲女士李李仲先生 蘇嘉鴻先生 蘇紫橋先生等六人那以上這六人的任期會依照相關的法令規定任期會到2029年的11月3日而且委員蒙志成的遺缺將由陳忠義接任任期會到明年的11月為止"},{"start":2249.471,"end":2272.93,"text":"那這次中選會的新任委員提名是依照中選會組織法第三條規定辦理滿足了三個法定的條件第一個滿足了中選會組法第三條第四項的規定提名了具有豐富專業學識或實務經驗的公正人士來進行第二個同一個黨籍的委員也不會超過三分之一在這次被提名人當中"},{"start":2274.324,"end":2302.163,"text":"僅有胡柏諺有時代力量的黨籍蘇嘉鴻教授有中國國民黨的黨籍那陳忠義前立委則是有民主進步黨的黨籍其他的四個人目前僅為無黨籍如果蒙大院通過所有的人事同意權後那麼加上目前現有的四位委員委員的有黨籍的同一黨籍的人數的比例不會超過法定的三分之一"},{"start":2303.339,"end":2324.114,"text":"那第三個經過這次提名作業的竊竭拒絕所有的七位被提名人均無中國戶籍也無外國戶籍或永久居留權也符合了相關的國籍的規範那以下也就這次七位被提名人的學經歷背景做簡單扼要的報告"},{"start":2326.991,"end":2355.059,"text":"那第一位是主任委員 並為委員游盈榮教授那大家對他很熟悉他是台灣民意基金會的董事長過去長期在學術界在東吳大學任教非常多年那在中央的行政經驗他不但擔任過過去行政研考會的副主任委員陸委會的特任副主任委員海基會的副董事長兼秘書長"},{"start":2356.874,"end":2382.131,"text":"也擔任過中選會的委員在政治學比較政治民意與投票行為政黨選舉等領域專業駐有專精那第二位是胡柏彥委員並為副主任委員胡柏彥教授現在是東吳大學法律系的教授專長是憲法行政法過去他也在不同的大學任教"},{"start":2383.598,"end":2410.681,"text":"也曾經擔任過許多中央部會的書院審議會或者是法規委員會的委員那他也曾經擔任過中選會書院委員會的委員對於中選會的業務也是非常的實務上也是非常的了解那第三位被提名人也是過去的資深的立委黃文林律師那黃文林律師的專長是法律及內政"},{"start":2412.284,"end":2437.106,"text":"曾經擔任過第八屆的立委也曾經擔任過多個仲裁協會的仲裁人在程序、主持、爭議處理方面有相當豐富的實務經驗第四位是李李仲教授李李仲教授是由中國國民黨所推薦的被提名人李教授現在是中華科技大學的專任教授"},{"start":2438.174,"end":2458.163,"text":"也是副校長專長是商業跟金融監理的法規公平法跟智慧財產權等多元的領域那他過去也曾經擔任過第七屆公平教育委員會的委員長期投入法學的研究兼具公共治理選務跟獨立機關的實務經驗"},{"start":2461.53,"end":2484.826,"text":"那第五位蘇嘉鴻教授也是中國國民黨所推薦的優秀的人選那蘇嘉鴻教授目前是福音科技大學的專任教授過去在中央他也曾經擔任過海委會國家海洋研究院海洋政策及文化研究中心的主任等職務現在也擔任許多地方政府"},{"start":2487.796,"end":2511.955,"text":"醫療爭議調解委員會跟醫事審議委員會的委員從中央到地方從理論到實務也具有豐富的經驗第六位是舒子喬教授那舒子喬教授是台灣民眾黨所推薦的被提名人那舒子喬教授是現任東吳大學政治系的教授專長是憲政體制選舉制度以及比較政治"},{"start":2514.367,"end":2542.916,"text":"長期研究我國的憲政制度跟選舉制度並著作等身有相當豐富的期刊跟論文那第七位被提名人是陳忠義前立委他目前是桃園市選委會的委員專長是法律曾經擔任升格之前的桃園縣的桃園市長也是立法院第五屆的立法委員資深立委"},{"start":2544.181,"end":2571.059,"text":"在地方不只有行政的經驗也擔任過長期的縣議員的職務具有豐富的中央跟地方的實務經驗相信也能夠為中選會無論是中央或者是地方的選舉事務能夠投注非常多的專業的貢獻那這次中選會的提名作業也感謝國民黨以及民眾黨"},{"start":2574.884,"end":2593.445,"text":"舉薦優秀的人才經過行政院審酌的考量秉持著韓納各黨推薦橫跨朝野背景兼具理論實務以及中央地方經驗這四個原則我們就相關的領域領選了七位"},{"start":2594.741,"end":2615.012,"text":"被提名人加上現有的四位中選會委員也都是學長巨優相信能夠為中選會籌辦選務注入專業全面的規劃跟運作思維持續深化中華民國台灣的民主法治體現主權在民希望"},{"start":2616.38,"end":2645.249,"text":"貴院所有的委員能夠理性審議予以支持 以上報告請各位委員先進指教 謝謝謝謝 感謝張秘書長的說明現在我們開始來進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明和答詢請被提名人游盈隆先生說明"},{"start":2659.629,"end":2684.209,"text":"王主席各位委員行政院張秘書長各位女士各位先生大家早安大家好我今天非常榮幸能夠以中選會主委被提名人的身份來國會的殿堂來接受各位的"},{"start":2686.331,"end":2715.252,"text":"提問不過一開始我沒有預期到說我還要做報告要做說明不過我簡單的講11月底我接受行政院的提名我是抱持著一個如臨深淵如履薄冰的心情接下這樣的一個提名我知道"},{"start":2717.011,"end":2743.566,"text":"中選會主委的工作是非常的艱鉅的中選會的工作不是常人所能夠理解但是中選會的工作關係到台灣民主的成敗所以承擔這樣的一個角色那是無比的沉重也無比的榮幸"},{"start":2747.267,"end":2751.749,"text":"我是懷抱理想跟使命感而來我希望為台灣民主做出貢獻在目前國內政局緊張政黨高度競爭的環境裡面中選會要如何"},{"start":2776.061,"end":2801.632,"text":"做到讓各黨都能滿意讓所有的候選人能滿意讓選民能夠滿意是一個非常艱鉅的挑戰但我相信如果我獲得大院的同意支持未來我一定會"},{"start":2804.282,"end":2831.329,"text":"堅持絕對的超然中立客觀公正並且專業的精神和能力全力以赴希望中選會一個健全的中選會能夠在大院的支持之下早日的出現在國人眼前讓我們"},{"start":2833.166,"end":2854.518,"text":"我們2026的大選能夠順利成功讓我們2028的大選能夠順利成功中選會是這樣的一個角色我在這裡非常誠摯的也謙卑的要向我們的國會報告並且也請求讓中選會"},{"start":2864.349,"end":2891.091,"text":"人事案早日通過 讓中選會早日上路為大家做事 謝謝大家謝謝 我們現在請登記第一位 牛西庭委員質詢謝謝主席 請備題名人游教授請游教授"},{"start":2899.758,"end":2917.487,"text":"好早安林委員早這個您大部分我們認識游教授都是在新聞媒體上因為這個台灣民意基金會的這個民意調查也算是赫赫有名長時間的滾動提供了政治圈非常多攻打手邊的一個素材那大家在"},{"start":2918.726,"end":2945.287,"text":"這個看到游盈隆教授被列為中選會主委的提名人的時候大家當然是有一些意外也有很多問題想要請教那麼今天很高興有這樣一個機緣可以跟教授來做一下面對面的討論我問的第一個問題就是你應該如何確保啊這個如果有幸成為中選會主委啊因為你平常也評論非常多的一個政治的事務也做民意調查在基金會裡面有職務你怎麼樣確保這之間的分際可以非常的清楚你打算做哪一些的決定"},{"start":2948.396,"end":2973.935,"text":"謝謝牛委員我已經有了相當的覺悟擔任中選會主委也有一定程度的犧牲是要付出的我可能失去了自由我的意思是說失去評論台灣公開評論台灣政治的自由作為一個政治學者"},{"start":2975.23,"end":3004.095,"text":"我作為一個關心台灣的知識分子那樣的一個犧牲是重大的但是為了更高的目的為了更重大的目標我覺得我必須做這樣的歌聲一語雄長不能得見好 所以意思就是說不會再發表相關的評論民意調查等等也會離開基金會的職務是這樣的意思嗎如果大院能夠"},{"start":3005.266,"end":3026.884,"text":"通過中選會主委的人事同意權任命我將辭去台灣民意教育基金會的董事長也辭去董事我採取比法律更嚴格的標準做自我的要求非常好 謝謝"},{"start":3028.294,"end":3056.467,"text":"那麼我們再針對幾個常常我們在中選會這個平台做討論的題目跟教授做一下意見的交換這個目前立法院有很多的委員提案修正公職人員選罷法或者是不在籍投票的各種相關的一個草案那也有這個這個大家的版本不一樣但大部分的版本基本上都是限於所謂的境內移轉投票有關不在籍投票的部分換言之就是透過登記的部分我不見得要舟車勞頓的返鄉"},{"start":3057.967,"end":3086.897,"text":"我可以在就近的投票所去投別的選舉這是在自己戶籍所在地的這樣子的一個投票那我想請問一下被提名人立法院如果修正相關的法令新增了不在籍投票相關的制度限於國內移轉投票請問您會不會忠實的執行立法院通過的法律當然如果立法院通過了不在籍投票中選會只有依法行政全力以赴好 謝謝"},{"start":3088.103,"end":3114.416,"text":"那您覺得在您如果你有機會領導中選會啦您可能需要多少時間來做好境內移轉投票制度的相關準備工作我不知道這項立法到時候在立法院會如何通過整個制度的內容到底是怎麼樣我不清楚但是我也要就最近我從我們中選會"},{"start":3117.639,"end":3139.077,"text":"同仁那里所得到的许多的资讯我深深的感觉不在即投票是世界的潮流也是台湾许多人直觉上对的一个努力方向但是"},{"start":3140.732,"end":3170.098,"text":"當我們在講世界各國很多都採取了這個不在籍投票的時候台灣沒有感覺到自己落後了自己很慚愧我覺得那種心情是可以理解的我肯定那是一個進步的思維可是我們也不能夠脫離現實如果回到我們自己的國家的選舉制度"},{"start":3172.025,"end":3185.677,"text":"我們深入去看很快就會發現不在籍投票牽涉的是非常複雜的選舉的工程尤其是九合一尤其是在九合一地方選舉裡面"},{"start":3199.188,"end":3220.356,"text":"實施不在籍投票就現階段來講肯定是一個災難中選會已經提出來如果在九合一地方選舉辦不在籍投票將會造成將近九千種不同的選票在極端的狀況下所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":3224.028,"end":3245.234,"text":"很重要的一點我們喜歡看天邊的彩霞但不要踩壞了眼前的一大這個玫瑰讓我們的這個傲視世界的台灣選舉然後蒙城教授這個那到底是要執行還是不執行花多少時間準備"},{"start":3246.351,"end":3262.104,"text":"所以我剛剛講原則上我剛剛已經講但是願意執行但需要很多時間準備實際上要通過什麼樣的制度內容目前您知道嗎還是您可以現在告訴我我可以做回應當然這個有很多不同的版本"},{"start":3262.684,"end":3284.121,"text":"這個如果你有幸擔任中學會主委相信還有很多討論的機會但因為時間有限我們還有問最後幾個問題因為我們的執政黨曾經表示如果施行不在籍投票會導致選民投票的信任消失會有作票的風險也曾經說會有讓中國大陸借選更加容易即便我們剛剛講的現在的不在籍投票的版本是國內的移轉投票"},{"start":3285.041,"end":3308.983,"text":"這樣子的一個說法你認同嗎在你領導下的中選會你如何去避免這個選務公信力下降的問題你該如何把這個東西帶領好你真的覺得不再投票會有作票的風險嗎請你簡要回答就好選務行政的公信力是非常重要甚至是最重要的讓選民相信選舉的結果是公正的那但是呢"},{"start":3311.833,"end":3333.844,"text":"實施不在籍投票最大的困難是來自於執行面在可行性我覺得境外的影響等等可能是比較其次比較其次還是在於選務整個在操辦選務過程中遇到的一些新政的困難那你有沒有信心可以逐步的解決我不要講一步到位"},{"start":3335.611,"end":3362.568,"text":"如果立法院提了一個中選會沒辦法執行的一個方案壓垮中選會我也沒辦法在這邊跟您保證說一定就能夠做得好如果這樣的話是不負責任的好 謝謝教授 因為今天時間有限不過我建議你 後面還有很多委員要就教就直接回答這樣子就好了 好吧好 這給你一點點提醒跟建議 祝你今天順利 謝謝"},{"start":3366.075,"end":3371.099,"text":"謝謝我們感謝牛西廷委員質詢 我們請張志倫委員好謝謝主席各位媒體各位官員大家早有請這個中選會主委提名人游盈榮教授請游教授"},{"start":3393.646,"end":3412.842,"text":"好 教授好首先恭喜你成為中選會被提名人也預祝你可以順利當選那教授容我稱你教授那教授過去這個本席對你的了解不管是從這個電視上或是一些民調當中去了解您"},{"start":3413.542,"end":3441.572,"text":"那當然您對這個在去年的時候針對於這個大罷免的亂象你也公開提出這個批評甚至非常誠實的說這是對民主的傷害您的說法是執政黨就是參與發動這場全面性無差別的大罷免企圖奪回國會主導權不僅是台灣民主主流的民意的反對也會被其他民主國家不能接受"},{"start":3442.031,"end":3462.637,"text":"所以這個意思就是說大罷免不是民主之光反而是台灣民主之恥這是您說的嗎是 我講過是 好 那本席在這邊必須要稱讚您就是你願意講真話的風骨本席予以高度肯定那這邊我本席也要特別講在台灣這個民主史上不管是選舉"},{"start":3463.997,"end":3487.444,"text":"罷免或是公投在選舉制度上其實是蠻完整的一個制度可是在罷免跟公投上過去產生出了很多問題尤其在罷免上就您的這個評論來講就是執政黨其實利用了罷免裡面很多的漏洞來去做一些這個政黨政治的一些對決跟一些操作所以本席想要這邊特別跟你請教尤其是在罷免"},{"start":3489.105,"end":3507.984,"text":"這個每一個民意代表當選一年內可不可以執行罷免的這個連署的時候其實這個法是無明文規定的可是會造成這個社會上的一個對立所以本席必須要說選舉投票是一個民主的行為可是罷免它是一個"},{"start":3509.164,"end":3537.713,"text":"政黨的一個對決而且造成社會分裂而且是長期會造成一個情熱的問題投票你投誰大家非常清楚嘛而且這是秘密投票大家不知道你投誰可是罷免如果你沒有去連署的話會造成無盡的情熱啊而且說你沒有罷免我遇到很多民眾跟我講說他就是不想要連署罷免可是被民眾這樣子要求說一定要罷免要去簽連署還有一些攤販跟我講說他如果沒有去連署罷免他會人家會跟他恐嚇說"},{"start":3538.613,"end":3560.431,"text":"你這樣子我的生意讓你做不下去喔所以我覺得在當選一年內去做這樣子的這個罷免的連署喔其實就是現在整個制度上的一個漏洞那我看到你的報告裡面也有想說你未來會倡議說不能去進行這樣子一個動作請問你有沒有一些具體的做法或是未來可能會跟內政部去討論這樣的事情以目前的制度來看這個對於"},{"start":3568.07,"end":3594.737,"text":"罷免的規範是在選完一年之後也就是說當選一年之後才能夠進行罷免但是法律沒有禁止社會對就是說有相關的罷免的言論主委你同意這樣子這個不說言論是大家言論自由可是進行連署的一個方式您自己本身也是不贊成的對吧"},{"start":3594.977,"end":3616.751,"text":"我不贊成連署因為可以倡議那是言論自由那但是如果這個進行連署的話那就會對於我們想培養的這樣的一個成熟的政治文化是有傷的"},{"start":3617.959,"end":3635.172,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝教授教授你講的我覺得其實就是我們的心聲為什麼因為其實當時這個連署的一個過程造成社會分裂而且很多民眾其實被情的恐嚇這樣子的狀況其實非常的不好那也希望說未來你有機會擔任主委的時候也要多倡議這樣的行為變成說謝謝"},{"start":3637.854,"end":3656.091,"text":"那第二個我相信很多委員今天都有在跟你請教就是有關於不在籍投票的一個部分那不在籍投票其實目前其實我覺得這是非常重要因為現在就針對很多在投票所的工作人員他們其實有時候他們現在也是可以不在籍投票是嗎"},{"start":3657.892,"end":3675.62,"text":"所以現在的行之有年就是很多的工作人員其實在投票所的時候他們是可以進行不在籍投票所以本席有看到你的報告裡面寫說未來可行不在籍投票的順序第一個是移轉投票針對限定境內或身份特殊或者是戶籍地"},{"start":3676.44,"end":3697.195,"text":"在外的一些選務人員未來可以來考慮或者是在特定身份的不在意投票比如說這個援助民族或是服勤的警消人員等等我覺得這兩點我覺得非常重要因為第一個很多的公務人員或是警消人員其實他們的工作地跟戶籍地是不一樣的地方所以"},{"start":3698.115,"end":3725.265,"text":"這個部分本席也支持非常強烈支持您這樣的主張那是不是有一個期程說如果是不是可以先通過比如說我們一般的這個公務人員或是警消人員他們可以先來辦理這樣子的一個不在籍投票是不是可以請您回答是根據中選會最近的這個研究跟思考中選會是建議"},{"start":3726.646,"end":3746.421,"text":"不在籍投票先从单一的公民投票开始实施然后逐步的累积经验之后进一步推广到各项选举所以就这个角度来讲我觉得这样的一个态度是神圣的"},{"start":3746.969,"end":3766.956,"text":"是負責任的所以未來是不是能夠什麼時候哪一年能夠有一次公民投票然後在公民投票裡面試行不在籍投票然後我覺得那會是一個很重要的開始"},{"start":3767.486,"end":3790.026,"text":"好 了解 就是先從公民投票先起然後之後可能再就不特定人再來就是可能有進步有機會可以全面好 那我也希望主委這邊加速來實行那最後一個問題其實 針對其實當時我們這個立法院其實有決議一個這個公投的一個主題叫做反廢死"},{"start":3791.067,"end":3813.73,"text":"公投那當時是被中選會來就是否定這樣子的這個題目那因為當時這個議題有對很多民眾來講是非常的重要因為當時大家看到很多的這個殺人事件覺得說這樣現在的現在的民進黨政府就是不願意對現在比如說一些的案件去這個判死刑所以當然民眾覺得很"},{"start":3814.591,"end":3842.329,"text":"不能接受所以當時立法院才有這樣子的一個提案然後沒有想到被當時的中選會給否決那我想要請問主委當然你們否定也沒有當時你們有自己的理由啦那是不是針對這些民眾所關心的重要的這個公投的議題未來是不是有一些可以大家可以溝通的機會而不是說中選會直接把立法院提出的這些公投的主題直接給把它否定掉是 這是一個很複雜的問題我覺得"},{"start":3845.164,"end":3872.537,"text":"未來應該要多做溝通我覺得會比較好否則這裡面牽扯到太多複雜的問題沒有溝通的話引起強烈反彈對社會也不好好 謝謝教授聽到非常開心有機會第一次跟你這樣子面對面的質詢也期待你可以未來有機會可以當我們中選會的主委謝謝你 謝謝"},{"start":3878.535,"end":3899.786,"text":"謝謝我們感謝張志榮委員質詢我們家張宏祿委員我請我們的游主委加油教授"},{"start":3908.713,"end":3922.902,"text":"首先質詢前還是要稱老師好啦好 張委員好游教授是我大學的老師其實我很多的這個"},{"start":3926.298,"end":3946.306,"text":"這個政治學的東西都是游教授教導我的所以今天這樣問我是有點尷尬但是還是要問我想請問一下很多的委員也都有在關切這個不在即投票"},{"start":3947.066,"end":3967.352,"text":"但不在一起投票其實分了很多種大家現在一直在講一直在講其實慢慢的好像聚焦在移轉投票台灣現在大家一直慢慢聚焦在移轉投票其實我們中選會辦的就是選政的工作我們的選務的工作其實都是地方選委會在第一線在辦"},{"start":3968.892,"end":3992.427,"text":"那選政的工作我們就是說我想要請教游教授就是說其實台灣現在已經有部分的移轉投票我們投開票所的工作人員就有移轉投票那如果貿然的"},{"start":3994.111,"end":4020.493,"text":"要大規模的這個移轉投票我個人 我一個很擔心的問題我想不出解方也沒有任何人可以提出任何解方未來如果移轉投票變成是選政的一個改變的話我可不可以指定某些人去某個投開票所我去那邊投票跟開票"},{"start":4021.983,"end":4033.192,"text":"會不會有這種可能發生要看選區吧要看選區如果我為什麼要這樣講會變成買票"},{"start":4039.68,"end":4063.488,"text":"買票的人 我要求你收了我的錢你去特定的投開票所投票我買幾票 你沒有開出來幾票你就是給我跑票未來會發生這種情況如果發生這種情況我不知道各位被提名人你們有沒有解方"},{"start":4065.229,"end":4085.023,"text":"我相信目前都沒有解方啦我不知道教授您的看法我這樣講好了不再急投票我剛剛說的是世界的潮流民主國家採行不再急投票非常多那我們台灣在這方面其實已經落後很久了"},{"start":4091.98,"end":4120.609,"text":"所以要迎頭趕上我覺得在道理上是說得過去的不在即投票你讓許多無法返鄉的人去在他居住地投票這說起來社會上普遍也是會贊成的但是我也同意張委員剛剛所說的這可能會產生很多的問題包括你說的買票"},{"start":4122.754,"end":4140.047,"text":"這是因為我們台灣從來沒有實施過不在籍投票所以我們不知道會碰到什麼情況所以在這樣的情況底下事先當然應該做好非常周全的研究調查"},{"start":4142.133,"end":4167.047,"text":"然後考量各種因素然後再來進行我覺得目前中選會所提出的這樣的一個解決方式我覺得是可行的就是說我們要循序漸進不是一步到位我們一開始就在九合一選舉裡面全面性的弄不在即投票這個是太"},{"start":4169.86,"end":4192.07,"text":"太大膽而且太冒險的作為報復平和不足為訓是不是可以未來從公民投票開始先從那裡開始實施然後逐步的累積經驗然後解決了"},{"start":4193.513,"end":4205.585,"text":"我們社會或者是很多人們的疑慮我覺得這樣子分階段一步一步的走會是比較好的做法我也是這麼認為我覺得我們先從公投先對視"},{"start":4210.39,"end":4228.489,"text":"對勢來移轉投票 為什麼呢我也覺得這個不再急投票很多的國家都這樣做那台灣要不要跟著做我覺得這是一個很崇高的理想我也不反對但台灣有特殊的買票文化"},{"start":4229.471,"end":4248.428,"text":"美國會買票嗎不會吧對不對但台灣這個買票文化我們從報紙上就看得非常的清楚到處都有在買票幾十年來都是這樣那如果我們對人的選舉也實施移轉投票"},{"start":4250.117,"end":4272.243,"text":"我們的對岸中國我跟你講透過大規模的買票這個是對台灣一個非常嚴重的一個災難所以我個人我是認為對全國性的公投事情我們可以先來做做看為什麼我要這樣我必須再說我辦過選舉我是"},{"start":4275.958,"end":4294.054,"text":"縣選委會的總幹事我當了四年從村里長的選舉到總統的選舉我都親自辦過我跟你講 選務的複雜程度啊超乎大家的想像我們連一張選票連那個有汙損或印得不好"},{"start":4295.563,"end":4315.906,"text":"我們要一張一張選票這樣去看從頭到尾看到尾那個每個人壓力有多大如果你要移轉投票我跟你講問題太多了我要光說一個你連投票通知單 你選舉公報他要移轉去那裡 要誰去送到時候他說我沒有收到"},{"start":4317.217,"end":4338.15,"text":"這個有很多技術性的問題所以我必須要說移轉投票不是不行但不能照進照進會把台灣馬上一次垮掉如果一次選舉的不公平大家以後對選委會這個公信力就不在我常講一句選委會"},{"start":4340.034,"end":4356.856,"text":"如果你要辦選舉我多給你人多給你錢很多技術性是可以克服的但公信力是最重要的一件事選務公信力三個字是最重要的所以我還是覺得主委教授"},{"start":4358.459,"end":4375.749,"text":"如果你的看法也是一樣就是從事情先來我覺得應該是先朝這個方向不可以一次太躁進不知道教授的看法我完全同意你的看法我覺得這樣做對台灣是比較好的好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張宏祿委員接受我們請黃姐的委員"},{"start":4395.336,"end":4399.985,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請游盈隆被提名人加油教授"},{"start":4408.376,"end":4428.723,"text":"好黃委員好是好 邱董事長先跟您請教這個不在即投票其實您剛剛已經有提到一個重點就是說不在即投票雖然世界各地有很多國家在施行但是我們不一定要這樣冒進而且如果直接用九合一大選來貿然的進行的話會是一場災難"},{"start":4430.143,"end":4445.269,"text":"這是您剛剛的論調那我在這邊也想要附和這個論點因為其實大家也知道說選舉的公信力是最重要的那選舉如果我們九合一大選直接開始施行不在籍投票的話您剛剛是說會增加9000種選票是嗎就選票的種類來講是將近9000種"},{"start":4452.89,"end":4481.663,"text":"是的這就是一個非常重大的技術性的問題所以我在這邊想請教的是你們有沒有先算過如果九合一大選只要直接使用不在籍投票會要增加幾倍的經費幾倍的人力多少個投開票所因為我還沒有上任我只是努力的去收集相關的訊息我不知道中選會是不是已經評估出來我目前手邊沒有這樣的資訊"},{"start":4482.813,"end":4508.899,"text":"好那我在這邊先提供一些資訊喔在2021年內政部其實有大概統計過就是說如果這一些就學就業沒有涉戶籍那可能會因為不在籍投票而可能可以投票的人大概第一名是在雙北大概就有37.4萬人那第二名會在台中有26.5萬人第三名是桃園有26萬人第四名是台北有18.5萬人"},{"start":4510.479,"end":4532.57,"text":"那如果這些人通通來申請這個不在籍投票大概就是會增加大概百萬人以上那這個是2021年的數字那台北市的選委會當時也有出來說光是這個投開票所可能就要增加三倍以上那如果現在年底就要來做這件事情的話您覺得可行嗎您就一個選務機關的考量來說選籍"},{"start":4538.315,"end":4559.823,"text":"2026地方選舉是11月28號舉行今天正好1月28號 就是10個月左右我覺得直覺上是不可行的事實上最近中選會也曾經行文給各地方的選舉委員會"},{"start":4562.025,"end":4582.059,"text":"各地方選舉委員會也都回報關於不在籍投票地方的態度沒有一個選委會是同意在這一次採行不在籍投票的所以地方事實上也是挫雷彈"},{"start":4583.815,"end":4613.515,"text":"是嗎因為就我剛剛說的光是台北就說要增加三倍了更不用說其他像是新北台中這一些可能不在籍的人口有大概三四十萬人的這一些選區喔那所以我覺得這當然是一個很大的技術性的挑戰但是話說回來剛剛其實有一句話我其實沒有很認同是剛剛這個有董事長說我們台灣沒有實施不在籍投票跟國際上相比來說是落後的"},{"start":4614.255,"end":4642.064,"text":"那我必須要說其他的國家跟台灣的情況大大的不同啊你不能拿台灣的情況跟世界各地來比啊請問其他國家有中共借選嗎有一些想要試圖來破壞我們台灣民主的這些境外勢力嗎沒有嘛那再來其他的國家有像台灣這樣經歷過這些什麼中立事件等等買票做票的過去選舉舞弊的歷史嗎"},{"start":4642.924,"end":4663.144,"text":"也沒有嘛所以台灣的過去民主的歷史是非常艱辛的我們是這樣一步一步大家靠著人民的信任人民的爭取那我相信游董事長過去也是經過這些民主的事件努力撐起台灣的民主的所以一直拿國外來跟台灣比較我覺得非常的不公平"},{"start":4663.664,"end":4677.66,"text":"那台灣現在需要的是一個非常可信穩定而且有這個選舉公正性的民主制度所以任何的變革我認為都必須要在非常的可信而且公正的基礎上來進行選務的變革沒有不行"},{"start":4680.683,"end":4706.652,"text":"但是前提非常非常的重要因為台灣的民主很辛苦我們是這樣撐起來的所以在這邊還是拜託我們這個游董事長如果要回答說不再投票是國際的趨勢的時候拜託想想台灣自己特殊的歷史拜託想想台灣過去是怎麼走過來的所以不要一味的說要跟國際上來比較這真的不是一朝一夕可以做到的"},{"start":4706.952,"end":4720.846,"text":"那最後會有一點時間我跟您請教這個公投綁大選因為過去有董事長一直都是支持公投綁大選的所以在這邊想請教那如果您未來上任之後您還是支持公投綁大選嗎"},{"start":4722.332,"end":4740.66,"text":"我當然支持公投綁大憲而且也沒有不支持的空間因為法律已經修正了所以我在這邊就要請教的是沒錯因為這個藍白還是強行的又再次通過了嘛那我要請教的是那您要怎麼務實的解決過去2018發生的邊開票邊投票的問題開票到半夜三點的問題以及這些因為人綁事而造成這個沒有辦法好好的討論公投議題"},{"start":4751.844,"end":4778.079,"text":"以上這些問題直接民主是民進黨的核心價值我過去二十幾年來當我是一個民進黨黨員的時候我實際的參與相關的事務無數的民主前輩為了能夠實現公投犧牲奉獻他們的青春生命自由"},{"start":4779.409,"end":4801.982,"text":"所以公投是一個民進黨的核心價值是所有的民主國家應該要追求的是的 我們都認同我們也非常支持公投制度所以我在這邊跟您請教的是如何防範重演2018邊開票邊投票以及開票到半夜三點以及這些可能會影響選舉結果的可能的情況再度出現"},{"start":4803.571,"end":4831.354,"text":"2018年是一個噩夢而且這個噩夢的形成有一些條件支持其中一個那您如何預防未來不會再重演呢這是一個選務機關最重要的工作我可以說明一下嗎2018那一次有十項公投這十項公投選委會公告之後一個多月而已就要投票"},{"start":4832.614,"end":4852.905,"text":"所以造成整個秩序大亂 這是其中一個所以這一次 經過這幾年來朝野的共同體認之後修法所以將公告之後一個月就投票 改成三個月這是一個很重要的改變第二個"},{"start":4854.778,"end":4877.605,"text":"以前辦理那麼龐大的選務一半法律規定一半是要軍公教人員現在也修正成三分之一只需要三分之一所以我在這邊希望您可以承諾既然公投綁大選是您的立場也是您的責任那未來希望你可以承諾在你的任內絕對不會再發生2018的噩夢我們盡力而為這個要請你保證謝謝"},{"start":4883.663,"end":4898.925,"text":"好 謝謝備題名人 謝謝黃建委員好 接下來有請王美惠委員主席男嘉游教授有請備題名人 謝謝"},{"start":4905.129,"end":4917.502,"text":"王委員好你好在這幾天的過程當中我們有看到你的履歷剛才你說到你人家告訴你要做檔門這個節目的時候也有一邊高興"},{"start":4925.197,"end":4947.497,"text":"也有一邊為了理想而走因為在這個過程當中我們的選舉委員會中選會是要有中立的在剛才本席所聽的好歡樂的就是覺得大家都想你長久以來是在民意教育基金會裡面擔任當事長"},{"start":4950.834,"end":4955.083,"text":"剛才有很多委員請教說你可以當時時你說你如果"},{"start":4962.05,"end":4975.673,"text":"這個人事案過 過得馬上死因為我覺得好的理想雖然是夢死 有的人也說你每天都在批評民進黨那是怎麼來做這個因為我覺得有擔當的執政黨裡面"},{"start":4987.495,"end":5010.684,"text":"應該無論他是我什麼人 他是北平什麼人今天我們要做政府單位是看他的認知所以在這裡我保證 我在這裡也是國民黨也是我們的朋友任何一黨都是我們的朋友為了理想 為了建設"},{"start":5012.125,"end":5018.711,"text":"我們都要做法表這是最好的 如果不做朋友 我們也沒辦法不可能說法表當中 你的總選委跟你不共同 不一樣的想法 你就不採納他的意見跟他的想法 大家討論之後 才可以"},{"start":5036.987,"end":5047.465,"text":"有好好的問題出來所以在這個過程當中最重要最重要在那裡大家差不多都說不再舉投票高雄你有說"},{"start":5050.014,"end":5055.615,"text":"可以為公道開始但是在這個過程中你剛才有回答過跟我們是怎麼理會一般人會亂吵吵會這麼多人會開票的時候又有人又要投票因為這種我相信在你的代言之下以後可能不會再來發生也不是可能而已一定不會再來發生"},{"start":5077.742,"end":5092.223,"text":"在不在一起投票的時候有很多人歡樂的就是像我們的孫悟寧原譬如他在黨區做孫悟寧原像我自己來說"},{"start":5094.005,"end":5106.135,"text":"他在當局的補考在當局的 但是他算不領完譬如是在第一樓的票箱第一樓的票箱不是他應該到的地方 因為他有申請嘛但是在這個過程裡面 你覺得他最高興的就是議員都一樣"},{"start":5119.859,"end":5128.343,"text":"市長都一樣縣和里長不一樣他這張票如果沒投出來是人家縣的里長還是他沒投里長大家都知道所以告訴你"},{"start":5136.208,"end":5163.467,"text":"在這裡面我就是說我們教育也好 全國也好我們今天是要講全國的 但是我是批論這個情形給你聽因為我們中華民國的台灣的選舉是大家最近都認為最好的雖然是很古早 但是改進到有夠好的因為我們那些黨議會"},{"start":5165.288,"end":5175.031,"text":"就是我們有一個派出兵在派出兵當中有時候會應用到選舉因為我常常說好的人才認真發表的民意代表我們一定鼓勵他當選但是在這個過程當中不再是投票有時候會去應用到選舉的結果"},{"start":5192.675,"end":5198.517,"text":"所以在這要問教授不再審投票本身跟你說因為有時候選票票數也很多也有現在都回到選票票數也有但是在選票票數你如果在本層第三張很多選票票的人在那裡大他不覺得什麼他如果兇勇去申請一個"},{"start":5219.742,"end":5225.848,"text":"我自己人都沒有在那裡的票檔我今天的票投出來這樣才算閉路投票啦告訴你來會談我所有擔心的事情我們大家來做參考因為未來這可能"},{"start":5241.321,"end":5260.808,"text":"也會逐一去改善來翁委員所擔心的一個秘密投票可能破功出問題這確實是一個問題要去注意另外就是說你一開始的計較說我批評民進黨很多我在這裡向翁委員報告"},{"start":5268.907,"end":5274.112,"text":"我都是九十輪輸 沒特別去批評民進黨我也是批評共產黨 對啦我也是批評共民黨 高師傅我現在你可能 國會有我的意思高師傅我現在是說以我民進黨的 有人說跟你們去提名這一點點要批評你"},{"start":5288.886,"end":5291.388,"text":"我來說民進黨會出的任財不分什麼 不可以說跟他批評我們說我們不好我們就不體面他啊 因為他有他的專財嘛我剛才是說這樣 因為我認為很多人都說過的 欠費到買廢人"},{"start":5313.084,"end":5315.006,"text":"所以我要跟你說的就是有這個生活我相信你也聽到了你說的說 你說的事實但是有的人覺得說有需要"},{"start":5327.723,"end":5332.33,"text":"這樣做嘛這時候我覺得說要讓這個國家愛好像你這個領袖一定很讚的啦我這時候要問你不再只投票你要怎麼去改善本縣兩個"},{"start":5345.047,"end":5347.41,"text":"會擔憂啦 憂及濫捕人如果去到台北 我再跟你說有兩個地方有很多嫁給人 那都沒差那挑剔憂心裡 我才剛才還說如果派出兵"},{"start":5359.977,"end":5365.02,"text":"我們的生活他有辦法用另外一個生活這個票房跟你們的小家庭你們兩個阿嬤去住而已這要怎麼處理這才是最重要的啦跟我是來講"},{"start":5375.93,"end":5377.872,"text":"前幾天我是想問是怎麼邀請你來 因為你有你的專長我認為批評不是壞的 批評可以讓一個人改變他的生活可以做得更好"},{"start":5395.288,"end":5398.891,"text":"這是在我都覺得很關鍵的像我 我有時候也會覺得說我們做得不好應該要怎麼做才對啦來謝謝黃委員的指教 全份了解這個不在即投票 我剛才也已經跟大家報告在這裡再說一次就是說"},{"start":5419.181,"end":5436.827,"text":"不在即投票是一個很複雜的事情不是說發作就去做那是會造成很大的問題像這災難所以要循序漸進中商會有提出一個完整的草案給鄉長"},{"start":5438.207,"end":5459.941,"text":"行政議也通過 交給立法院所以是不是可以用風雄來努力累積經驗來盡量檢討它可能造成的問題包括翁議員你所說的 閉閉投票這種很重要的事情對 剛才我還有兩三個問題我想我這幾天的時間也夠了待會我們再來探討 希望"},{"start":5466.032,"end":5483.496,"text":"我們可以做得更好因為我的想法就是不管你是來自在座的也有很多特等都提出的人才所以我們應該是樂觀青春可以讓中選會加入去做更好的事情不是在這裡說分什麼黨的 怎樣怎樣"},{"start":5490.501,"end":5503.186,"text":"這樣是不應該的 如果要問什麼東西在座的都不可能今天來到這裡 以上謝謝王美惠委員 那要提名人請回交接一下我們這裡陳佩儀委員之行"},{"start":5520.031,"end":5549.723,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請貝提銘仁貝提銘仁好董事長早安我剛剛坐在現場聽了非常多的委員跟您請教了關於不再急投票你的立場非常的清楚就是不再急投票如果貿然實施會是一個大災難那我們就接下來看大家都沒有想到的一個問題我覺得非常的可怕"},{"start":5550.182,"end":5568.566,"text":"不確定董事長你有沒有注意到在去年11月我們立法院在藍白惡意強力主導之下通過了公投綁大選而且他說投票案公告成立後一到六個月就要舉行公投這個是針對人民的部分"},{"start":5569.006,"end":5590.619,"text":"可是呢公投法又有規定董事長他說如果是總統交付或是立法院或是行政院提案的特殊公投案不適用相關的頻率跟日期的規定就是沒有一定要兩年才能辦一次所以我可不可以假設一個情況請中選會想一想也請董事長你考慮一下怎麼回答第一個"},{"start":5591.139,"end":5617.14,"text":"假設今天真的有立法院藍白黨團惡意再提出一個在今年年底大選以前就來提出一個立法院本身提出的公投案然後逼你們中選會因為剛剛主委你一直被提名人你一直說你支持公投綁大選那我就看年底選舉的時候只要立法院藍白黨團對中選會提出相關的公投案不管是什麼主題"},{"start":5618.701,"end":5640.063,"text":"那你們就要處理喔可是你剛剛跟我說你支持公投綁大選這是第一個情況那年底就會有九合一大選加上公投綁大選這是第一個困境第二個困境假設我在想像一現在網路上有非常多人在帶風向跟有相關於情討論相關幕僚可不可以讓我問完讓我問完因為第二個問題比較難"},{"start":5642.23,"end":5656.933,"text":"好 第二個問題第二個問題就是假設有人他發起一個運動叫做我假設年底真的有兩種票可以投一個是公投票一個是九合一大選票可是我只申請移轉不再期投票部分我只申請公投"},{"start":5657.834,"end":5679.416,"text":"的部分可是我不在我那個九合一大選我還是繼續在我的原戶口地方投然後呢我就開始在網路上製造一個輿論叫做是你們中選會為難我你害我只能放棄某一種選票因為可能我一個票在台北一個票在花蓮可是假設我當天又沒有辦法兩地趕著投票那他不去問他自己為什麼要操作這種行為"},{"start":5680.037,"end":5706.11,"text":"他就會問中選會假設您真的當選主委之後這絕對會是一個難題請不要說我可能過度惡意的想像我必須說現在的台灣社會確實有非常多人是刻意要製造混亂製造國內的不團結甚至在這種看起來像民生事務上給相關行政機關你們造成困難就算中選會是一個獨立機構請問被候選人被提名人你怎麼看 謝謝"},{"start":5707.851,"end":5734.902,"text":"首先關於公投綁大選的大是大非的問題他不是大是大非不好意思董事長我認為他是一個相關配套因為辛苦的是我們基層的選務人員就像您剛剛一開始有說他會動到非常非常多選票的規劃從2004年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選也都很順利的舉行了"},{"start":5736.858,"end":5760.65,"text":"2008年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選國民黨相對也提出兩個四個案也順利辦完了公投綁大選今天碰到的問題是2018的那一場災難因為那一場災難所以大家想說怎麼樣避免災難重現"},{"start":5762.079,"end":5790.738,"text":"我剛剛跟大家報告說 其中2018年為什麼是獨特的我也希望它是獨特的 不會再發生了那是因為它件數這麼多 十個然後又是在中選會公告一個月多一點的時間馬上進行投票 所以整個選務大亂所以在這種情況底下 我覺得"},{"start":5793.272,"end":5803.322,"text":"抱歉讓我這樣講西方有一句話不要倒洗澡水連嬰孩一起倒掉意思就是說"},{"start":5813.82,"end":5822.482,"text":"公投是重要的跟選舉綁在一起利益甚佳而且過去的經驗也證明說是可以沒有問題"},{"start":5823.957,"end":5848.674,"text":"所以我剛才進一步跟您請教因為我時間有限我等一下會被主席請下台所以我剛剛問假設有人立法院提案就要在今年大選的時候他真的就有公投題目可以一起投然後又有一群選民假設他真的要惡意操作製造台灣內部的分裂跟不團結氣氛那我就申請我的公民投票部分我可能在AD可是我的九合一大選我還是回到我的戶籍地"},{"start":5849.034,"end":5866.814,"text":"然後到最後說是你們中選會害他不得不拋棄其中某一種投票的權利請問我們怎麼預防這個問題我認為現在的困境就是各種荒謬的狀況真的都很有可能在台灣發生從立法院開始到很多不同黨籍的委員尤其是在野黨的委員"},{"start":5867.655,"end":5886.841,"text":"斷了製造非常多分裂跟惡意的這種對話跟論述所以我必須要提出這麼看似很荒謬的問題但是不可能因為只要是立法院提案或是行政院或是總統交付特殊的提案他就可以不用受兩年頻率這個限制是 我也很希望這種很獨特的狀況不會發生"},{"start":5889.002,"end":5905.577,"text":"但如果發生了呢我也希望不要發生那如果發生我也希望不要發生目前這個所以主委您聽被提名的聽懂我的意思了對不對我當然充分了解您意思中選會公告之後三個月目前新的法律規定是這樣子"},{"start":5906.4,"end":5935.477,"text":"對啊所以他只要在下個會期立法院只要有人惡意要操作這個題目我們立法院真的就可以提出一個公投提案然後逼你們中選會表態你們要不要支持這個公投提案讓他走入公投然後年底的時候就公投綁大選我們沒辦法處理政治問題中選會處理行務問題那所以我剛剛說嘛好那假設回到人民我剛剛的意思就是說我陳培餘的戶籍如果在花蓮我就回去花蓮投九合一可是我公投的題目我就把它移轉到台北我住的地方"},{"start":5935.882,"end":5958.645,"text":"那最後我創造一個輿論跟氛圍就是是你們中選會害我不得不拋棄其中一種選票因為就是在去年藍白惡意主導公投綁大選硬要這樣通過所以我認為更多的惡意操作都是有可能的那我基於一個負責任的民意代表我認為我有需要跟被提名先討論這個問題當然相關的惡意的做法可能不是"},{"start":5959.065,"end":5977.607,"text":"在您的想像當中但是我現在就先提出這個疑問當然我相信後續的很多討論跟配套假設在事件發生之後真的要拜託你們假設你們都能夠成功通過被提名然後成為中選會的委員當然這就是你們要頭痛的事情但我想我身為一個民主的後輩過去看您非常多民主的成就"},{"start":5977.947,"end":6000.545,"text":"我必須要在這裡跟您報告過去這兩年來在這一屆立法院確實就很有可能有相關惡意的操作那甚至有相關的支持者就予以配合他真的就會出現我的公投票在台北而我的九合一回到花蓮然後我就說是你們中選會害我只能投其中一種票以上這是我給您的建議好 我們會留意這方面的情況好 謝謝"},{"start":6002.891,"end":6014.934,"text":"謝謝我們感謝陳培宇執行我們現在吳石瑤立委執行謝謝主席辛苦了有請我們有備提名人現在有備提名人"},{"start":6030.526,"end":6032.708,"text":"我想我破題非常清楚當政治越紛擾的時候"},{"start":6049.464,"end":6078.306,"text":"中選會的選務就要越公正超越黨派而且要守憲合法這是每一個從政人員我想未來大家有機會如果通過同意權我們在宣誓的時候的誓詞就是於誓以至誠恪遵憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使職權所以超越黨派跟守憲合法是重要的下一頁"},{"start":6080.321,"end":6097.775,"text":"我這邊列出來私藥自己認為的成功的選務的三要素他當然要是公正的他也是要效率的他更要能夠變明這是選務成功的三要素我也認為中選會的委員的四個要件獨立行使職權"},{"start":6099.116,"end":6128.102,"text":"基於專業而且要能夠公正更要首先合法我的選務三要素跟中選會委員的四要件我們未來的這個主委提名人游老師應當都認可吧有沒有補充的完全認可好謝謝我要跟您報告思堯在努力的面向不談政治中選會有很多可以做得更好導入design thinking不曉得老師您對於design thinking有什麼樣的理解"},{"start":6130.72,"end":6157.111,"text":"Design Thinking沒關係 我來替您說明好了賈伯斯曾經說Design is not how it looksDesign is about how it works也就是Design Thinking不只是大家說設計美學事實上它是以使用者為切入點讓整個事情更有效率而且可以解決問題"},{"start":6158.669,"end":6175.842,"text":"所以我曾經因為台灣設計研究院是思堯在任內催生的一個新設的國家的組織透過設計的導入來攪動我們的公共政策也提升公共服務的效能跟品質所以設計院成立之後我們去跟很多部會敲敲門"},{"start":6177.063,"end":6191.602,"text":"我也帶著設計院去向前主委李敬勇先生敲敲門希望能夠導入Design Thinking讓我們的選務更進步更親民更有效率所以這是我當時2021年拜訪李前主委的時候來下一頁"},{"start":6193.106,"end":6222.486,"text":"而我們改變了什麼我希望未來的中選會的委員們都能夠持續來推動吳思瑤催生中選會CES設計院投入我們改革了選舉的很多的更進步更變明也更美學的這些做法第一個在投票動線的優化左邊是before右邊是after他更讓大家在有限的空間的移動更有效率就是design的導入"},{"start":6223.786,"end":6248.002,"text":"他在選舉公報的優化上 過去很多人說選舉公報要這麼細膩 排版就是非常的unfriendly所以我們找了設計師design thinking以後after是在後面非常清楚讓大家可以一覽所有候選人他的政見相關的學經歷這是設計導入的正向成果 下一頁"},{"start":6249.636,"end":6268.284,"text":"設計導入呢還包括這些標識系統的革新越美越清晰不會永遠都是標凱體不要永遠是中華民國美學而這樣的選舉美學我們獲得世界級的Good Design設計獎獲得亞洲最具影響力的設計獎"},{"start":6269.444,"end":6274.126,"text":"也獲得台灣的經典設計獎所以我希望未來的委員們都能夠持續的來優化這些design thinking導入我們的選務下一頁當然還包括 圈選票處我們真的也讓它更簡潔 更俐落 更好看而不是數十年如一日我們小時候真的投票就是這樣到現在立法院自己的圈選票處還是長一樣"},{"start":6294.796,"end":6308.22,"text":"是可以革新的我想先就這個正面的分享給大家我想主委大家應當都可以如果後續需要思堯很樂意再串聯設計界跟中選會合作主委未來的主委OK嗎我非常的"},{"start":6314.122,"end":6339.323,"text":"因為司法委員剛剛有繞英文我覺得這個就是中選會未來需要的中選會未來需要我是一個進步改革主義者所以任何能夠進步能夠改革的都是好的事情選舉更有效率選舉更美學選舉更變明然後大家對於選舉去投開票所的心情可能也好起來很好"},{"start":6341.304,"end":6365.775,"text":"讓我再講一句我沒有想到我在今天來立法院可以看到這些新的觀念我簡直是Unbelievable所以立法院是有認真問政優質進步的立委而不是只有毀憲亂政的黨團很好下一頁當然不在即投票是今天的重點我剛剛講的選舉的三要素"},{"start":6366.195,"end":6380.567,"text":"公正效率跟便民提案的民眾黨團顯然只著重在降低選民投票成成本的那個便民的思考但是對於公正性跟選舉的效率他會造成選務的混亂甚至影響秘密投票甚至"},{"start":6381.247,"end":6404.083,"text":"也或多或少有境外借選風險增高的疑慮產生對於整個投票民主制度的信任危機所以呢絕對不能先求有再求好我們都支持行政院的版本您剛剛也說公投先行嘛好這是我們共同立場我們希望未來大家一起來捍衛這樣子的做法下一頁而以"},{"start":6404.895,"end":6425.486,"text":"我們行政院去徵詢了這些執行者選務機關的代表對於不在籍投票欠缺配套的狀況之下是all say no21縣市認為現在可以上路的是0個縣市甚至連民眾黨提案黨團他們自己執政的新竹市也認為不可能"},{"start":6427.907,"end":6436.814,"text":"所以呢過半的縣市也都支持行政院的版本公投先行我希望我今天要多花一點時間為什麼要跟主席多爭取一點時間因為民眾黨團的不在即投票他們就是這一屆立法院的壞習慣近乎二讀啊"},{"start":6444.841,"end":6463.439,"text":"委員會沒有討論啊直接不翼而決啊很有可能這週搞不好禮拜五又拿出來表決了所以今天有這個機會跟大家討論我就是希望能夠把這些數據告訴國人告訴社會台灣沒有一個縣市的選務機關認為不在即投票現在可以上路"},{"start":6463.979,"end":6490.61,"text":"NO所以我們就要審慎公投先行是多數的共識下頁而我們以投票意願這是我做的其實台灣的選舉投票率都是七成以上對於這些已經有不在籍投票有不同的可能是電子郵票可能是境外投票不同的行使的這些不在籍投票的國家台灣的投票率都是高的"},{"start":6491.11,"end":6509.685,"text":"除了南韓 南韓有他這一次總統大選不同的政治社會經濟的背景所以說不再投票並不是等同於高投票意願的這個思維我要在這裡論述 在下一頁更重要的是 未來這是大家的事情我們要辦一個讓人民滿意的選舉"},{"start":6511.072,"end":6519.34,"text":"而你看看台灣目前選務的滿意度2024年總統立委選舉84%的人民滿意給各縣市的選委會跟中選會拍拍手2022地方選舉滿意度83.2%2020總統立委選舉滿意度86.9%唯一一次就是剛剛未來的這個主委候選人說的"},{"start":6537.396,"end":6557.089,"text":"災難的2018的那一次公投房大學滿意度是28不滿意度高達68.6%這更要讓我們看到人民的聲音好我跳到我最後一個主題好嗎對不起因為有民調專家我還是想問一下這一題主委"},{"start":6558.792,"end":6566.754,"text":"我一直叫您主委他未來的主委你認為在台灣中共競選境外勢力競選的嚴重嗎有這麼難回答嗎我坦白講作為一個嚴謹的政治學者來講我要回答的是說感覺上很嚴重"},{"start":6586.178,"end":6598.011,"text":"事實上政府沒有找到非常多的證據來證明它很嚴重所以我覺得我們應該審慎地去評估這件事情因為主席站起來證據在這裡 證據在這裡看清楚"},{"start":6602.446,"end":6618.943,"text":"法務部公布中國借選的手段境外資金的借選網路選舉的賭盤跟認知作戰假訊息的操作2024年被偵辦的依反滲透法的案件境外勢力借選117件287人這個不是證據嗎 主委 下一頁"},{"start":6626.317,"end":6639.833,"text":"而國民黨黨主席的選舉是自己自家的人跳出來批評的我就不再贅述了中國的借選變本加厲我們就是要欲提從寬料敵從嚴下一頁"},{"start":6643.735,"end":6659.098,"text":"各國都有韓國加拿大澳洲美國印度甚至在美國這種民主的國家中國可以利用製造假駕照的方式大量的協助中國的僑民去投票假駕照的方式"},{"start":6659.739,"end":6686.695,"text":"所以世界各國面對中國的借選都在進行ING的防範主委 我們不要掩耳盜鈴您是民調專家 我問您一個專業的問題現在都有民調禁制期在選舉前公布的日期您覺得現在是幾天 您知道嗎10天您認為如果要調整 同意嗎未嘗不可"},{"start":6687.675,"end":6704.173,"text":"未嘗不可 那調整到幾天是可以接受的幾天好您的我尊重 台灣是民主社會現在國民黨立委要調變三天啦太危險啦 太危險啦我們回到前一頁"},{"start":6705.868,"end":6720.12,"text":"我們看看喔中國受益記者與退休教授捏造9次不實民調遭判刑司法判刑張顯耀先生涉嫌受中國指示發布講民調介入選舉遭起訴這都是司法偵辦換言之為什麼66%民主國家有選舉的民調"},{"start":6723.123,"end":6723.343,"text":"太短"},{"start":6747.498,"end":6770.254,"text":"太短嗎所以就專業論專業我覺得我們今天做一個非常好的示範沒有政黨立場我們超越黨派就專業論專業我們期待每一個委員都是獨立的專業的首先合法的以及能夠公正行使職權的最後一個提醒您提醒主席拍謝下一頁公投的那個這一個"},{"start":6773.496,"end":6779.772,"text":"國民黨提出修公統法要用公民覆決來推翻憲判主委你認為呢"},{"start":6781.392,"end":6809.717,"text":"這會是一個高度爭議性的問題所以我剛剛說中學會委員要守憲合法不問黨派守憲合法是基本的底線憲法78條司法院統一解釋憲法之權憲法訴訟法38條所有的憲法判決人民各機關都要服從而人民就包括公投行使的這些主體人民釋字185號也說明了不容挑戰用任何方式來推翻憲判"},{"start":6810.237,"end":6835.906,"text":"公投法第二條也規定公投的實施要遵循憲法的規定我要提醒大家未來的立法院一再的毀憲亂政要用公投法的修正來凌駕憲法未來這個難題可能會落在各位委員你們在審查公投案的當下我要提醒不看黨派不看顏色守憲合法是我們每一個人宣誓就職"},{"start":6838.7,"end":6847.929,"text":"的誓詞請大家謹記在心好謝謝游老師我今天多次稱呼您主委不好意思僭越了被提名人游盈隆先生我們一起加油謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳思堯委員質詢我們請黃建斌召委質詢抱歉讓你等很久謝謝"},{"start":6869.185,"end":6878.691,"text":"好 謝謝召委 主席我們先有請我們貝提名人游盈隆先生上台貝提名人游教授"},{"start":6882.697,"end":6898.354,"text":"老師好黃委員好老師好 老師因為目前還在這個人事審查階段嘛所以本席就先稱呼為有董事長其實我相信台灣的民眾對你都不陌生你過去擔任過民進黨副秘書長還有海基會副董事長那在政壇的"},{"start":6900.052,"end":6920.889,"text":"經歷非常豐富是我們的大前輩後來擔任台灣民意基金會董事長也經常發布民調跟時事的評論很多見解其實常常引起回響像是去年民進黨發動主導大罷免結果大失敗的時候你就非常直率的說大罷免是惡意的在排除在野黨"},{"start":6922.977,"end":6941.162,"text":"但是它不會被選民所接受然後你更直接的批評說民進黨推動大罷免毫無正當性那可以說是民主之詞那本是要對於你雖然出身民進黨但卻有足夠的勇氣來說出民眾的心聲並且給予我們執政者中肯的這個建議這件事情我們想要你格鬥的這個困難"},{"start":6942.322,"end":6967.967,"text":"那尤其身為現在身為中選會主委的這個被提名人擔任這樣的角色就是必須要能夠超越黨派然後克尊中立那帶領我們中選會發揮本來應該要發揮這個超然獨一的這個功能因為在過去我們中選會的中都被人家下面加一個新被批評是中心的中這個很一樣他不是中於人民是中於執政黨所以"},{"start":6969.071,"end":6983.864,"text":"舉例來說在大罷免期間很多立委辦公室都發韓文去中選會希望能夠提供一些相關的資料那中選會都用行政流程的理由然後一拖再拖就有這些不願意給立委提供給立委的這些資料"},{"start":6984.685,"end":7008.041,"text":"甚至都還沒有經過中選會的這個會議的審議通過就霸團跟這些媒體都有辦法先拿到然後接下來就是在網路上公開然後帶風向那發生這樣的情況就是相對是非常明顯有違反這個中選會這個有違反這個行政中立甚至有泄密這個嫌疑那這也是為什麼中選會長期以來形象一直不好的這個原因之一就是因為他雙標讓他認為他雙標沒有"},{"start":7010.822,"end":7034.471,"text":"做到這個客手超然獨立這個立場因此本席也希望說如果未來老師有順利成為中選會的主委一定要無往出眾那秉持客觀中立勇於對執政者提出建議說真話甚至批評的這個勇氣這是我們大家符合大家對你原本的這些期待那接下來本席要針對溫泉中有關於不在籍投票的議題來跟您討論"},{"start":7035.356,"end":7057.242,"text":"就是你在問卷中的回應是說不在即投票涉及憲法保障人民參政權擴大政治參與意義重大你舉雙手贊成這點本席給予肯定因為你的態度非常清楚明確就是說當你也聽到說不在即投票當然還有許多行政跟技術上的問題需要來克服那"},{"start":7058.777,"end":7082.93,"text":"這個但是問題是身為選務機關的選務主管機關應該要站在守護人民投票權當出發點那努力去解決問題克服困體才對所以因此本席也希望說如果老師你就任主委的時候能夠更進一步積極的來推動不在籍投票特別是針對這個偏鄉還有原住民地區來優先實行那為什麼本席會這樣講因為"},{"start":7084.574,"end":7101.843,"text":"我來住台東 台東就是一個偏鄉我們很多人都在外面工作 求學 很多的原因所以在每次要回去投票要花很多的成本這成本不只是交通上的成本 包括時間上的成本跟主委分享一下 像台北到台東坐火車四個小時"},{"start":7102.663,"end":7119.864,"text":"那到台東市 你要到其他的鄉鎮可能還要一到兩個小時的時間他可能投票就要花一天的時間這個是都會區沒有辦法想像你可能早上出去投票三十分鐘 人家知道有什麼事情在外面講話要花一天的時間這是偏鄉很大很大的投票上的困難那像我們2024年的總統大選"},{"start":7121.909,"end":7148.752,"text":"的投票率我們全台東縣是62%相較全國平均是72%我們才有10%因為先本市才太廣所以會影響到人民投票的意願這是本市支持不再投票最主要原因那希望我們在外工作這些台東的子弟或讀書的學子能夠也能夠享有跟其他人一樣投票的權利不會因為距離影響了投票的意願最後我也要再呼籲一下游董事長就是說"},{"start":7149.272,"end":7172.529,"text":"如果未來立法院審核通過你擔任中選委的主委我想也請你務必要保持過去一直保持的這個客觀中立勇於對執政者提出健眼的這個勇氣並持續地推動不再急投票落實憲法賦予人民的平等參政權也守護我們偏鄉民眾投票的權益謝謝博文請問董事長是不是可以來做到"},{"start":7173.469,"end":7196.17,"text":"當然 我覺得我剛剛已經講了不在即投票是世界的潮流 社會也高度關注身為一個政治學者也好 或者是一個知識分子也好我舉雙手贊成 但是我們還是要非常謹慎面對讓它循序漸進 不要追求一步到位否則會帶來很大的災難"},{"start":7197.857,"end":7215.906,"text":"對我們一起來努力啦 這可是真的 剛才剛才講的那些感受的地方我們剛才譬如要放鬆幾年那可能真的大家沒辦法 可是我也發電量所以我充分了解謝謝主委很正面的答覆 那我們一起加油那謝謝謝謝我們的備體兵人 謝謝召委 謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃建斌召委質詢我們請蘇巧"},{"start":7232.392,"end":7238.257,"text":"書面喔 好來 蘇巧惠 蘇巧惠不在 我們這裡有提名有委員抱歉 我想說我們的夢幻學生沒有看好 召委 我們議會同仁 請我們中選會被提名的人我們的主委我們的游老師 游教授"},{"start":7261.781,"end":7280.467,"text":"首先恭喜你啦被提名人但是我發早上很多人的爭議還是未來在網路上的假訊息包含不再去投票這是未來你當主委你要去推動要去承擔因為過去的九二一"},{"start":7282.681,"end":7298.868,"text":"過去的九合一上上界就是一個亂象那亂象的話你當一個主委你整個選舉的步調以及規劃都要很妥善現在整個中選會在這幾年"},{"start":7300.929,"end":7327.8,"text":"其實我們中選會我也是很肯定因為這幾年真的改變很多 國民黨的心目中真的有徹底改變但是未來不再去投票這是還要好好的去規劃還有在網路以境外的那個假訊息的問題假訊息的問題我認為主委你應該是一個學者出身應該對這個問題 你要怎麼去"},{"start":7330.519,"end":7354.725,"text":"第一時間你要怎樣去耗資怎樣去開發怎樣去下架這是未來你要做的是不是主委這一點你來做說明好不好謝謝吳委員的指教假訊息特別是在網路的時代的新奇是所有民主國家必須面對的巨大的挑戰"},{"start":7356.024,"end":7383.024,"text":"怎麼樣在假訊息衝刺之下能夠維持選務的公正性能夠讓所有的候選人還有選民都能夠獲得最好的保障這是中選會或是任何國家的選務單位必須面對的問題所以未來如果針對這個部分來說我相信中選會同仁"},{"start":7385.456,"end":7395.457,"text":"這方面經驗是非常豐富但是我們面對的是一個瞬息萬變的世界尤其是AI的時代所以"},{"start":7397.045,"end":7422.823,"text":"中選會怎麼樣能夠去面對這個問題中選會自己要有所節目但同時中選會是一個行政單位也需要立法院的強力的支持給予他 賦予他能力 賦予他資源讓他能夠應付這一個高度複雜而且充滿不確定性的年代"},{"start":7425.655,"end":7445.539,"text":"我們主委我們提名人真的你說這樣回答因為早過去中選會每次的選舉大多都是有一些網路的誤導以及境外的私立介入但是那時候很多都是反應中選會但是中選會還是沒作為"},{"start":7448.598,"end":7475.435,"text":"等到要有作為已經選舉完了這對候選人是非常的不公平所以這一點我要拜託我們未來的諸位這點一定要記著雖然是說我們要確保每一個好選人他們的反應例如說第一時間的反應我們都要立即的去處理這樣不做好選人他受到這真的是不公平啦"},{"start":7476.878,"end":7504.243,"text":"這一點 我再請教你 你說不在一起投票這一點 我聽剛才建平委員在執行你也是以我舉雙手贊成嘛那未來實施的時效是什麼時候目前中山會建議是這樣就是說從公民投票開始實施"},{"start":7506.408,"end":7531.953,"text":"從單一的全國性公民投票開始實施之後逐步地累積這方面的不在籍投票的相關的經驗降低它的弊端然後一步一步地推進到全國性的選舉包括總統 立委 甚至到地方的選舉這是需要一個過程 一段時間"},{"start":7532.933,"end":7548.591,"text":"不是立刻就去做事實上中選會也沒辦法決定我們立刻就去做中選會還是要遵循立法院制定的法律然後我們才能夠去依法行政但是中選會"},{"start":7550.252,"end":7573.561,"text":"秉持選務機關的立場也有責任和義務提供給立法院最充分的資訊這個可能面對的困難是什麼問題是什麼我們的建議是什麼我想這是中選會應該去做而且能做的好 謝謝我們當然啦我們中選會大家都期待嘛要有作為嘛"},{"start":7574.802,"end":7584.648,"text":"這是大家共同的期待以及目標吧好 謝謝 請委員那我請行政院秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":7591.687,"end":7597.131,"text":"委員長 委員長 現在全國 因為我看我們的媒體在報導我們的沙石的問題廢棄物的問題 現在是非常的嚴重所以說在這個部分 應該是我們在中央要跟地方政府來做協調"},{"start":7613.406,"end":7625.563,"text":"包含說每一管區 他們都可以說設置一個掩埋場或是你說停台北港 就是說每一個地方也不要說讓砂石運到各縣市 這樣說變成一個"},{"start":7628.696,"end":7656.747,"text":"流竄又是一個亂道的問題所以說這個博文因為現在大家都反映說都是中央規定什麼都推給中央這對我們中央非常的不公平所以我認為行政院應該找地方政府大家來設置要怎樣來處理包含我們的填海照路包含我們的港口"},{"start":7657.652,"end":7674.586,"text":"港口旁邊很多要有我們的後櫃一些大型的工業區這都可以來推動委員跟召委可以給我差不多三分鐘來報告跟說明好不好這三小時的事情可以分三方面來跟大家報告"},{"start":7675.669,"end":7701.155,"text":"GPS的部分啦 現在中央的政策是你可以用中央無關系來進步或是環境部的GPS這可以進入 第二有很多地方原本就有用GPS 無關系手機或是車機都可以進入 我們用GPS雙軌制的方式讓能夠載運沙石土方的車子能夠上路去載 這第一部分第二部分剛才委員在追尋的"},{"start":7703.575,"end":7711.761,"text":"戰智場的部分 現在中央加密集在跟地方開會在協調 中央會找從北到南八個戰智場"},{"start":7713.533,"end":7737.822,"text":"包括台北港 台中港 漳濱工業區台南有一部分那高雄這邊也有這個南興計畫的土地我們中央找八個站置場希望地方也能夠進來這個協助管理車可以走 也是有地方可以走這是第二部分第三個部分是就簡正便民的部分以前是這個"},{"start":7741.656,"end":7754.969,"text":"土方出來 要先經過土資廠再到最終處置廠但是土方有些依照法規 也是有加料現在可以從這個出廠直接到最終處理廠又或者是在台中經過分析70%的部分是可以"},{"start":7758.172,"end":7786.225,"text":"賣掉的也能夠就地來做合法的交易我們從這三個面向來做還需要一些時間中央可以跟地方做的合作公共工程也好各種私人的工程也好能夠在合乎法律的規定之下讓土方的全流向的管制穩健的上路還需要一點時間中央地方會合作政府民間也會一起合作依從委員報告"},{"start":7788.146,"end":7811.083,"text":"好 謝謝你說一些可再利用的這種的大家都不要說一味的全部都規定的實施的這樣我就去解決他們的問題不然現在很多你說每次我們都會去都在推動建設包括公共工程甚至也是土方沒有武器處這一點就是他們都來帶我們陳情所以說我今天你 秘書長你有來特別幫你提起"},{"start":7817.262,"end":7838.015,"text":"好 謝謝有什麼歡迎再麻煩委員跟行政院來講我們會繼續拍片 謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳祁銘在這裡要讓我們的秘書長說那刷牌也要刷牌更加到位 更加關心 更加了解因為這個萬事失去 真的很不好來 我們請劉淑萍委員質詢"},{"start":7849.241,"end":7858.113,"text":"好謝謝主席我現在請被提名人主委被提名的游盈隆教授游教授"},{"start":7866.1,"end":7890.239,"text":"郭教授您好您不只是政治學者你本身也曾經當過陸委會的副主委對於兩岸關係的法律體系還有國家忠誠的問題應該都有非常的了解我今天想要請教的一個制度性的矛盾就是陸籍配偶在台灣的戶籍滿了10年之後"},{"start":7891.44,"end":7918.63,"text":"依照兩岸人民關係條例呢他是可以參政的並且呢他也是經過中選會審查了具備了一個候選資格那另外呢但是我們看到是在國籍法依照20條呢他當選後呢在他的就任前或是一年之內呢必須提出放棄中國國籍的證明或是依照其他的法律規定來辦理否則就撤銷資格了那內政部長劉世芳呢他也主張可以參選但就任前"},{"start":7921.611,"end":7925.896,"text":"再用國籍法來去檢驗他的忠誠我認為有三個問題第一個是法律適用的問題兩岸人民關係條例是個特別法在跟國籍法發生衝突時是否應該優先適用呢那內政部 劉部長的說法是否已經有擴張裁量權"},{"start":7941.091,"end":7969.83,"text":"異越法律授權的這個問題那我先把問題說完那請這個被提名人游教授你就等一下再一起回應就我時間有限第二個問題就是參政公平性的問題那一個人可以參選後來當選但是最後是要高度仰賴對岸去要去出具這個文件然後才會被撤銷可是事實上這中共不會發的那是否會侵害到他的是陸配的一個憲法平等保障的這個參政權"},{"start":7971.171,"end":7998.713,"text":"那第三個就是說國家終審如何制度化這是民進黨非常重視的這個問題那終審應該的審核是在選前明確可預期的法律要求之下但是還是說他還會依據選後補件那如果拿不出來就撤銷那因此就想說如果要在最後的這個在這個相關的法律還沒有整合之前你是否認為就終選會應該主動的面對這樣一個法律衝突請劉教授回答 謝謝"},{"start":8000.996,"end":8025.23,"text":"這的確是一個非常棘手的問題對中選會來講一方面來講 站在保障參政權的立場這個中選會會樂見所有的國民的參政權都被完整的保障但是兩岸關係是高度的複雜"},{"start":8027.581,"end":8054.99,"text":"相關的法例到目前為止也沒有就這一點有非常完備清楚的立法所以在這種情況底下就留下了一個模糊的空間這個空間內政部有內政部的主張中選會在這上面幾乎沒有去主張什麼的這樣的一個立場"},{"start":8057.076,"end":8064.139,"text":"但主觀上您作為一個學者作為一個學者我覺得兩岸是一個高度複雜的問題我覺得這個目前這樣的一個問題"},{"start":8070.379,"end":8086.789,"text":"你就是侵犯他的公平參政權嗎這是好幾個價值牽扯在這裡面所以即便是在過去多年以來有國民黨執政時代有民進黨執政時代但通通沒有去根本解決這個問題所以這問題遺留下來這問題坦白講對中選會來講要交給中選會去處理這個是中選會沒這個能力"},{"start":8099.051,"end":8115.258,"text":"所以你們未來就是草獨立機關就不處理了是嗎不知道 我的意思是說那這個部分你應該是行政院這個可能秘書長要去回應那我現在問的一個問題更重要的是那特別法跟普通法的這個問題適用你應該怎麼看法呢"},{"start":8117.867,"end":8140.831,"text":"根據法律學當然我們在座有很多法律專家特別法是優於普通法所以兩岸人民關係條例但是這兩者因為兩岸關係高度的複雜牽扯著非常複雜的歷史的因果這裡面可能會衍生很多很多的問題就選務機關來講選務機關並沒有這種職權去做這個讓"},{"start":8147.829,"end":8168.575,"text":"所有的人滿意的這樣的處理我知道被提名人劉教授你就是現在在一個審查期間這個問題應該是民進黨非常care的問題的那的確也是有它的複雜性但是這個比較全國的人民包括學者專家必須好好去針對這個問題去好好去針對大家的部分要知道它的公平性"},{"start":8170.595,"end":8198.971,"text":"還有再一個問題在於說我們看到的是國內移轉投票的問題國內移轉投票涉及到的是又是一個價值非常重要的涉及到公平的平等權跟自由跟秘密投票然後也涉及到國家的信任那我剛才也聽到是主委是不是您對於一般我們民眾黨是提出來是國內移轉投票請其他的政黨就是尤其是民進黨不要去特別的去汙名化國內的移轉投票那請我想要說那個被提名的你針對"},{"start":8200.454,"end":8204.486,"text":"這國內移轉投票的話 您的態度是支持還是怎麼樣我支持啊"},{"start":8205.37,"end":8229.74,"text":"我完全同意 但是我覺得不是一步到位沒錯 沒錯 我後面繼續問下去那這個部分我知道你也在你的這個對民眾黨的回應報告當中有提到說他必須按部就班因為涉及到國家信任的問題還有安全的這個秘密投票問題那你的意思是說從先從公投開始嘛對不對包括是從到選舉的到原住民的地方到中央是嗎"},{"start":8230.68,"end":8247.722,"text":"好那重點是相關的問題包括說我們就他的一個配套措施就是說他對於秘密投票有被破壞的問題還有對選票保管跟運送的問題那就這兩點你是不是夠可能如果你當中選會的主委你有沒有什麼後續的一個配套措施規劃或是想法初步的現在"},{"start":8248.683,"end":8270.539,"text":"我還沒有上任中選會主委啦不過我已經很努力的在了解相關的狀況我覺得技術上來講應該是可以處理啦否則這個像原住民的這個部分已經有了初步的大院也已經通過了相關的法律來解決這個問題我覺得"},{"start":8275.009,"end":8284.245,"text":"這個基本上是不會有大問題所以是基本上技術性沒有大問題是不是願意要不要做行政機關這部分要不要做的問題我想要講清楚的就是說"},{"start":8285.734,"end":8304.204,"text":"如果不在籍投票立刻就要實施在2026的這一次九合一地方選舉那是幾乎所有的人包括22個這個地方的選舉委員會就是各縣市六都都岐岐以為不可"},{"start":8304.944,"end":8330.412,"text":"所以應該要分階段然後實施之後能夠獲得社會的信心社會的信賴我們再來推展到選舉上面去所以大家可以預期如果您順利當選到中選會主委的話應該會提出中選會的版本半部就版了就實施可行性去進行嗎是我希望這樣子好 謝謝那另外最後一個問題這個主席先"},{"start":8333.014,"end":8351.49,"text":"包容一下好這地方就說您在您的民眾黨的回應的報告當中我提到說呢對於中選會對公投案的審查僅限法律明定要件不涉及到價值判斷不涉及到價值判斷那就是這部分嘛那請問是說如果是針對114年"},{"start":8354.113,"end":8381.015,"text":"在有送到中選會的就立法院的一個有公投案這樣子的案提到的中選會去做審查的時候這一個時候是針對說題目是您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決的政策呢這個立法院公投案假設您當時是一個中選會的主委您對於這樣子的一個案子是否能夠成案您的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":8382.376,"end":8395.759,"text":"我觉得那一个案子对中选会来说我事后了解中选会承受了空前巨大的压力要做出一个正确的决定是非常困难的"},{"start":8396.584,"end":8426.071,"text":"但是我們也要注意到中選會不是立法院提出了前部否決中選會也同意也處理了河山研議公投是的所以有一個通過一個不通過我相信上一屆的中選會委員會有他們的相當完整的思維但是主委被提名人我是問您的看法我是問您的看法"},{"start":8426.491,"end":8452.916,"text":"我的看法對 這個議題我覺得這是一個非常困難的問題您這樣狀況是 您的初步判斷因為這涉及到的是在程序上面這部分你是指的 劉委員我再把題目說一遍 您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一次決之政策那這個部分是讓民眾去決定"},{"start":8454.907,"end":8479.603,"text":"所以他如果過程當中的程序上面並沒有違反的話應該是讓民眾去決定公投的意思就是在這樣子沒錯 我充分了解你的意思而這正好也就是觸及了或凸顯了目前台灣司法審查權跟直接民選 直接民主之間的衝突"},{"start":8481.806,"end":8509.254,"text":"所以這個問題到目前為止還社會還不是完全了解但是我覺得社會可以廣泛的去討論是不是公民投票的結果不能抵觸憲判這是一個很嚴肅的憲政的問題我覺得社會可以去討論但是上一屆的這樣的一個裁決我現在也算半個當事人我不便表達意見"},{"start":8510.151,"end":8536.947,"text":"好 這樣好 謝謝至少我覺得這個被提名的劉教授您提出出來之後您知道在現在在審查期間包括也是你過去的在民進黨的黨員後來你退黨但是你就知道說你自己有一個這個學者的價值這個風範我是覺得已經建立起來就是有一個高度肯定但我希望說您如果被立法院同意的話你就繼續的在這個位置上面就是在跳脫到政治堅守到行政中立"},{"start":8537.347,"end":8565.251,"text":"然後也重建中選 各界對於中選會的這樣一個信任因為大家都覺得中選會那個中是中於執政黨的那個中然後也落實到法定選務然後保障人民的實質參與這對你的期許這一點請委員放心好 謝謝游盈隆就是游盈隆 不會改變好 我們期待大家一起有目共睹期待OK 謝謝謝謝 感謝劉淑檳委員質詢我們王宏威委員"},{"start":8572.011,"end":8577.399,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們被提名人游教授加油教授"},{"start":8583.083,"end":8604.505,"text":"好 游教授辛苦了我們委員好可以看到今天包含就是我們整個審查會裡面包含我們國民黨的委員對游教授也有相當多的肯定那我想請問一下因為游教授過去除了是政治學教授還有民調"},{"start":8605.426,"end":8633.022,"text":"那當然對於政治也有很多評論而且你過去長期當這個政府的烏鴉執政黨的烏鴉那譬如說在去年的大罷免的時候你有很多的評論你的評論是大罷免是台灣民主之恥而且你曾經痛批有兩大戰犯死不認錯就是包含民進黨黨團的柯建民總召還有沈伯陽委員"},{"start":8634.443,"end":8657.7,"text":"那你有提到就是大罷免是災難性的民主內戰那當然其實你的評論也不止於此所以你這一次在被提名的時候外界其實有很多人是驚訝的那甚至有一種說法是說你可能可以得到在野黨委員的票數但是民進黨內部很多人對你有意見"},{"start":8658.661,"end":8681.129,"text":"所以您認為在這一次的整個的提名的表決過程裡面你目前評估你可以得到民進黨全數的票數同意你嗎這部分我不敢去評估不敢評估 所以有可能會有人跑票"},{"start":8682.009,"end":8699.439,"text":"我不知道好 那另外請教一下因為我剛剛特別提到了一些大罷免在這個過程裡面很多人就開始談到一些我們法律跟一些制度上的問題在之前我們通過了就是在聯署要付身分證 銀本"},{"start":8700.885,"end":8716.759,"text":"民進黨政府有來提出復議但是呢並沒有拿去釋憲所以這個應該已經是可以確定的這個行政院也沒有拿去釋憲然後我想請問一下我們還有一個版本就是呢"},{"start":8717.299,"end":8738.212,"text":"加一版本就是你的被罷免票數要多過就是被罷免要多過你之前之前的當選的票數才能夠確定被罷免那我不曉得游教授你對於這一個的修法版本你個人的意見是什麼 你同意嗎謝謝委員 我的看法是這樣第一個"},{"start":8748.14,"end":8762.371,"text":"家父身份證這個是加嚴罷免權的刑事坦白講在某個程度上我是贊成的因為全世界各國國會議員是沒有什麼國會議員罷免制度的"},{"start":8767.813,"end":8786.053,"text":"沒錯啊所以就這個部分來講我純粹基於學者的立場我是覺得加嚴我是可以同意的那第二個就立委提罷免同意票需高於當選票我覺得這兩個不能夠相"},{"start":8787.722,"end":8797.087,"text":"不能夠不能相提並論對 不能相提並論所以你對於加1的版本你個人有疑慮"},{"start":8798.26,"end":8824.273,"text":"我覺得那個不合理好 你覺得不合理好 因為我們今天是審查必須把一些就是我們現在修法的過程要就教於你另外我看到你回答就是我們立法院各黨團的就是有關於罷免的部分我們在罷免的過程裡面有很多的不合理其中有關於是政治獻金因為我們自己是身為被罷免人"},{"start":8824.833,"end":8850.707,"text":"那因為我們是被監督的對象但是相對在政治獻金上就出現了一個極不平衡的狀態如果在選舉裡面不管是多少人參選每一個人都是受到政治獻金法的一個規範但是我們在這一次被罷免裡面其實整個的政治獻金是非常非常混亂的"},{"start":8852.729,"end":8873.566,"text":"我看到你的回答是說你也認為即便是罷免者包括領銜人也好或罷免團體他的政治獻金也應該受到一定的管理和規範所以我想請問你這個部分你要不要再講一下就是有關於政治獻金的規範你個人的看法是怎麼樣政治制度是嚴禁的"},{"start":8878.448,"end":8893.165,"text":"不是從一開始就完美無缺所以經過不斷的實踐實驗之後該修的是應該要修我個人的意見是被罷免"},{"start":8894.775,"end":8918.224,"text":"的人要受到政治獻金法的限制但是提罷免的人目前沒有任何的這方面的沒有任何規範所以我覺得未來是可以考慮修法雖然政治獻金法的主管機關並不是中選會但是這涉及了選務選舉跟罷免的公平性"},{"start":8918.924,"end":8942.193,"text":"的確 因為這樣所以我才表示意見好 所以你也認為這個應該修好 另外一個在這次罷免裡面有一個完全回憶於過去的做法這次中選會也被我們認為是極為不中立而且有政治辦案之嫌就是有關於在聯署告發聯署 錯假聯署的時間"},{"start":8946.114,"end":8957.197,"text":"過去事實上去年大罷免並不是第一次也不會是最後一次但是中選會過去歷次針對有關於罷免的錯假連署每一個包含韓國瑜 王浩宇 陳柏惟 黃婕 所有的"},{"start":8966.599,"end":8992.605,"text":"都是在投票之後然後去做告發每一個都是在投票之後去做告發唯有一次例外唯有一次例外就是在去年的大罷免大家可以看到去年大罷免整個去告發錯假連署然後去偵辦錯假連署大概都是史上這個最為激烈的一次那這中間就是跟中選會的告發時間有關"},{"start":8995.686,"end":9011.218,"text":"那到底這個告發時間應該是在聯署期間呢或者是在投票之後不要去影響最後的罷免結果其實應該要有一套制度的但是中選會當時就是完全違反過去的做法當然就被我們認為說這個是有政治辦案的嫌疑所以這個就是中選會的業務了"},{"start":9022.526,"end":9046.744,"text":"所以我想請問 我們主委被提名人如果你擔任主委 針對未來夾是有這個連署 錯假連署其實這個連署還不只是罷免 還有選舉也會有這個你是不是應該建立一套 一個可長可久的制度而不是隨著不同的情境而改變"},{"start":9049.793,"end":9066.523,"text":"對我來講這個時候要回答這個問題的確是困難的怎麼會困難我還是要回答這個問題這個一點都不困難吧我還是回答這個問題我自己也參選過所以我也知道其實選舉期間為了避免影響選舉"},{"start":9068.467,"end":9097.258,"text":"即便有嫌疑人涉嫌犯罪检调司法单位也都是事后侦办事前也有一些但是基本上不会这么做所以我不了解大坝棉去年实际的状况他们是怎么样做成决定我不了解那是一页沧桑史我觉得事后可以再去检讨改进"},{"start":9098.116,"end":9109.05,"text":"我特別指出這個這個其實完全是技術性的竊選完全是技術竊選有非常多種因為我時間到了不耽誤下面時間謝謝謝謝我們感謝王宏威委員資訊我們現在習新穎委員"},{"start":9124.636,"end":9129.988,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請這個主委被提名人請阿佑教授"},{"start":9137.951,"end":9155.406,"text":"这个我们游教授好那本席想请教您这个您应该知道现在AI时代的来临那AI的身为技术也已经成为全球民主的威胁了"},{"start":9156.207,"end":9183.176,"text":"那您被提名为这个中选会的主委所以今天本席的质询要为我们的民主宪政找到疫苗那我们台湾民主的选举绝对不能被破坏也不能被不信任台湾的民主如果被破坏那就不战而亡这点您认同吧完全赞同对 所以近年来AI深维技术您"},{"start":9184.617,"end":9203.694,"text":"這個是不是有所觀察或者是您的了解是如何現在全球民主都受到AI身為技術的威脅很多國家都發生過類似的案例您有沒有一些體會或觀察的心得當然有我覺得"},{"start":9204.875,"end":9218.896,"text":"AIA所帶來的新的時代假訊息的衝刺氾濫這是所有的民主國家必須要去面對的而且是一個挑戰也可能是一個噩夢但是應該要嚴正以待"},{"start":9221.007,"end":9237.232,"text":"对 那现在我们的选罢法的机制大部分是事后追究责任那没有办法挡住选前特别选前24小时 48小时的这种假讯息的洪水"},{"start":9238.012,"end":9267.01,"text":"针对这一块本系想请教您是否支持您如果就任中选会主委之后能够主动推动这个选罢法的修订应该要纳入一些预防性的条款例如强制要求一些平台他一定要标记标记我这个平台展现出来的影片或是照片图像他是AI生成的内容而且"},{"start":9267.91,"end":9295.658,"text":"也要賦予中選會針對經過鑑識是身為的影音或是圖像呢有權下令做緊急處置針對這一塊您的看法是我的看法是這樣中選會只是一個不到60個人的一個單位長期以來這個努力於顯霧的行政那對於這一個"},{"start":9298.639,"end":9315.652,"text":"當前這麼巨大的一個時代的巨變所衍生的這些問題恐怕不是中選會單獨可以承擔的當然…所以我本席第一個主要的是說你如果擔任主委你是不是你可以推動一些修法"},{"start":9316.472,"end":9339.066,"text":"有法依據法令那相關單位就可以來進行那你中選會是很重要辦選務必須要公平公正甚至你要讓整個的選舉過程合乎民主程序所以您是否會主動推動選罷法的修訂納入針對現在AI身為的一些預防性條款"},{"start":9339.85,"end":9354.423,"text":"我覺得這是義不容辭會嘛 對應該這麼做但是必須要建立在這個非常好的扎實的研究的基礎上面然後才能夠提出來"},{"start":9356.885,"end":9382.496,"text":"當然 但是現在很多實務上非常的需要剛剛您也已經有稍微提到就是說整個的修法如果只靠中選會可能會遇到相關部會互踢皮球我想您大概也有預期所以本席也想請教您上任之後如何確保您跟NCC速發部的一些實質的合作"},{"start":9384.439,"end":9411.067,"text":"我們主觀上當然是願意的就是很多事情事實上就是跨部會必須要去共同面對的那是否願意發起跨部會的這種專案小組那來制定一套可操作的這個預防機制而不能讓我們整個民主選舉民主制度的這個防護網呢最後被破壞在中選會的職權範圍內"},{"start":9413.283,"end":9428.344,"text":"該怎麼做就怎麼做而且要全力去做好 這個大原則方向很好那現在就是說您如果就任後整個的修法如果來不及可是"},{"start":9430.015,"end":9457.33,"text":"馬上選舉就到了這個AI的假訊息爆發怎麼辦那中選會會不會有一些行政備案譬如說透過行政命令要求平台在選舉期間加強審核以及跟事實查核中心進行24小時的熱線等等這些問題我猜您大概還沒想過據我知道這個中選會這方面已經有一套做法"},{"start":9458.371,"end":9466.908,"text":"就是说上次我们才质询我们的召委王召委也很认同的我不知道中选会送来了没"},{"start":9468.726,"end":9487.695,"text":"我不曉得中選會送來沒有我現在是被提名人對 沒關係那您就表達您的立場我覺得就這個部分來講所謂身為的這些照片這些影響它是直接影響到選民跟候選人所以"},{"start":9488.976,"end":9505.921,"text":"中選會能夠做的大概是怎麼樣在第一時間降低它的傷害而不是根本上解決這個假訊息的問題中選會要主動積極建立這個綠色通道讓這整個能夠不受影響因為那樣的一個問題的存在是"},{"start":9506.821,"end":9535.966,"text":"跨政黨的噩夢不是只有哪一個特定政黨對 我們不是為特定政黨這個選舉的公平公正很重要那主委 所以這個AI的偽造像洪水猛獸我們希望預防勝於治療那中選會一定要主動修法不然我們的民主會淪為科技戰場的犧牲品這一塊我們希望如果您能夠順利擔任主委的話這個部分一定要落實而且堅持住好不好"},{"start":9536.246,"end":9547.357,"text":"我們嚴正以待 嚴肅以待謝謝謝謝我們感謝習慶雲委員執行我們家葉研資委員麻煩請那個游教授游教授"},{"start":9566.704,"end":9590.549,"text":"右岩好右教授好 這樣跟右教授請教一下在我們選罷法裡面有規定如果要罷免的話要一年之後才能夠進行那你覺得當初選罷法會這樣子規定的原因是什麼為什麼不是立刻選完之後就可以搞罷免一定要一年後我猜想立法者大概也意識到不要讓當選完之後立刻面臨"},{"start":9592.193,"end":9611.123,"text":"當選人被罷免的情境不要說這個讓人家輸不起就搞罷免應該是這樣吧總是要讓人家做個一年看看做得好不好再決定要不要罷免但是在這個李靖勇前主委在這邊我也問過他一樣的問題他說沒有不可以"},{"start":9611.992,"end":9633.778,"text":"現在的法律是沒有不可以換句話說如果我選上了輸給我的人輸不起他可能覺得說在選舉過程當中有什麼失誤或他覺得他想要再拚翻盤的機會他在敗選的隔天他跟他的團隊就可以來搞罷免這個是我們現在法律規定就是這樣嗎您的看法"},{"start":9635.23,"end":9659.813,"text":"我看怎麼詮釋啦我覺得選舉結束之後如果有國民不滿選舉結果不滿當選人所以他會對他講出很多負面的話說要罷免等等等等那是屬於言論自由的範圍言論自由當然都尊重但是如果是由敗選的那一方或其政黨"},{"start":9660.794,"end":9681.628,"text":"在背後煽動發起的你覺得這有符合民主的常態嗎因為以目前的法律的規定事實上也是一年之後才能夠禁止罷免像中選會才能夠可是問題是輸的人他可以在輸的隔天就開始規劃 煽動然後搞大罷免"},{"start":9682.228,"end":9709.986,"text":"我們去年看到的狀況就是這樣雖然民進黨嘴巴不講是他們發動的但柯建民總召就很誠實嘛他在接受媒體訪問的時候就說在投票的隔天還是隔兩天就去找過賴總統啊這在他媒體訪問公開講的啊怎麼透過罷免去扭轉國會的席次嘛在我們那一區包括我們國民黨很多立委的選區都一樣啊發動罷免推動罷免最用力的就是輸的那一方嘛我那一區就是這樣啊"},{"start":9710.831,"end":9729.608,"text":"他的我在那個罷免說明會我有公開資料啊他輸給我的那個立委的服務處主任沒多久就成立了一個就加入一個這個罷免的社團在推動然後不然就是想要取而代之的民進黨的人主要在推動嘛那這是民主常態嗎你覺得是嗎"},{"start":9730.928,"end":9744.354,"text":"當然不是 這是政治問題啦對啊 那問題是法律規範不嚴謹或中選會的按住就會造成這樣反民主的狀況出現嘛所以如果說您當主委當然中選會是辦選務的機關但您也是洞見觀瞻啊"},{"start":9749.556,"end":9777.248,"text":"如果是您的話您覺得要怎麼去結合您的未來的職務讓這種反民主的狀況繼續發生我們只能夠依法行政就中選會的角度來講但是以我作為一個政治學者的角度來講我長期以來反對在國會議員的層次立委來存在一個罷免制度因為全世界先進民主國家沒有哪一個國家的國會議員"},{"start":9779.502,"end":9805.255,"text":"美國的聯邦參議員 眾議員當選之後面臨被罷免沒有的 制度上就不存在這種可能性但是台灣也許這個就是說在孫中山先生的思想底下然後去制定的選舉罷免創制復建那個那個是這樣子因為我們國家不可能沒有罷免因為走到這一步不可能沒有罷免但是"},{"start":9805.935,"end":9830.98,"text":"應該是怎麼去完善罷免的制度比如說現在因為罷免的門檻比較低它只要兩成五所以就會讓選輸的人覺得有機可乘怎麼透過大罷免去扭轉剛剛產生的民意這就是我覺得制度造成的漏洞但是大罷免結果其實對社會非常傷害像我們那一區就出現非常多的對立包括家庭"},{"start":9832.558,"end":9858.648,"text":"長輩跟子女之間也因為立場不一樣罷免的仇恨的煽動彼此不和甚至有女兒離開家庭都有我覺得這個是當初發動大罷免的人他可能沒有顧慮到那麼多但這絕對不會只是政治的問題這是整個社會的問題它會影響到整個社會因為我覺得這個事情是非常嚴重沒有正當性的罷免那時候罷免我的被推出來的領先人用了一個理由"},{"start":9859.699,"end":9868.583,"text":"2023年葉元之怎麼樣怎麼樣所以要罷免葉元之我2024才做立委就是說因為剛選完就要搞罷免他也找不出什麼理由他就是這樣隨便亂講這個就是罷免制度的漏洞"},{"start":9872.186,"end":9889.531,"text":"我們對未來的主委或是現在的游教授充滿了期待覺得到時候如果在一些法令的解釋 詮釋甚至改革上面希望說您可以更積極的去讓我們的台灣更民主 更健全我一定會這麼做好 謝謝"},{"start":9899.305,"end":9920.845,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝葉延之委員質詢在這被提名人游一龍先生之說明跟答詢已經結束了被提名人游一龍先生可以先離席"},{"start":9922.298,"end":9931.549,"text":"我們休息十分鐘繼續我們再來請胡博遠先生來審查謝謝大家大家辛苦了"},{"start":10558.82,"end":10567.602,"text":"我們現在繼續進行比提名人胡柏諺先生跟說明跟詢問請中選委員比提名人並為副主任委員胡柏諺先生說明謝謝"},{"start":10591.648,"end":10612.745,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位委員我是胡博焱很榮幸有這個機會受行政院的信任而被提名擔任這樣的職務的工作那我也希望這個是一個這幾年來我們都看到台灣其實不只是在立法院在每個地方政治的抗爭性都非常大我想"},{"start":10613.726,"end":10632.553,"text":"政治不是只有抗爭也有很多討論跟協調這件事情而我們其實這個委員會呢目前的七位提名人基本上來講來自各個不同的黨派其實以目前的地方選委會的態勢是一樣的那說實在的相比"},{"start":10633.086,"end":10659.767,"text":"我們內政委員會可能處理的像內政部的事情或是其他部會中選會是一個行政動能很小那嚴格來講處理的事情也比較單純但是雖然它是單純的但是這件事情其實處理不好就會動搖國本的這事情那但是呢中選會其實剛剛主委提名有提過說我們其實原而編制也不過才60個人就像地方選舉委員會也不過才200多個人"},{"start":10661.266,"end":10686.326,"text":"所以呢我們雖然有七個提名人但是大概只有主委跟副主委需要兩個值日生來負責擦黑板倒水的這樣的工作這個就由游老師跟我來擔任但是重要的是這七個人其實在未來在決定事情上面以及現在的四位委員在未來決定事情上面來講在這個委員會當中而言每個人的決定的份量是一樣的而且這也是體現這一個國家在處理選舉事務當中而言"},{"start":10690.209,"end":10701.315,"text":"各黨各派在處理事務當中都有應該要發言的地位而我們希望藉由這一次的審查可以讓我們國家可以走得更順利謝謝謝謝我們這裡電視台有他的詢問詢問質詢"},{"start":10721.006,"end":10743.355,"text":"謝謝主席我們請被提名人胡伯彥教授胡伯彥教授被提名人好我想剛剛你有說明就是這一次的話基本上是由各黨派來推薦也是我們進入到立法院將近兩年來第一次的人事審查"},{"start":10743.823,"end":10772.266,"text":"是由各黨派來推薦我們當然也希望說能夠有這樣一個好的結果那當然今天有幾個題目要就教於您那首先是在我們提問的一個問題當中針對中選會是否有權審查立法院的公投提案那您的書面回答得非常清楚就是依公投法第15條第二項立法院交付案件排除人民提案審核的程序"},{"start":10772.748,"end":10797.939,"text":"就法律解釋上應該沒有審查的適用你甚至說立法院交付本為政治決定在邏輯上不該由中選會進行合法的審查所以我在這邊請您先把你的立場講清楚你的意思是不是只要立法院三讀通過交付到中選會這樣的公投案其實中選會的角色就是依法辦理呢"},{"start":10798.618,"end":10814.724,"text":"我認為一件事情就是就這個法律條文解釋邏輯上面來講因為他排除了第九條到第十三條的適用所以在這個時候如果中選會審查必須要回到一件事情上面來講就像以前所講的就是請你間斷回答是不是一個政策是不是因為在您的報告裡面在這個選擇上面來講就會是如何而且不是只有這個條文因為我們還有防衛性公投"},{"start":10824.287,"end":10844.933,"text":"的問題就是如果這是您的回答嗎所以是不是就是應該遇到這個有立法院三路通過交付中選會的這樣的一個公投案中選會的角色就是依法辦理對是好那所以不能再用什麼非重大決策或是合法性把它擋下來是嗎"},{"start":10845.643,"end":10864.302,"text":"我認為這個問題的憲政問題應該是要由大法官來去解決那接下來也是我要請教您的就是您認為如果真的有憲政問題的話那您覺得中選會雖然是獨立行政的一個機關但認為行政權的一部分並非憲政機關所以憲政上的爭議"},{"start":10865.458,"end":10889.782,"text":"依照憲法應該交由大法官來處理這是您的回覆所以針對這個部分中選會它不是憲政的機關所以中選會如果過度介入只會讓選務複雜這也是您在回覆中提到的所以我要問得更直接一點就是中選會直接駁回公投案是不是嚴重的越權呢也僭越了大法官的職權"},{"start":10891.038,"end":10913.725,"text":"我其實在之前的研究報告有提出來一件事情是說中選會如果直接把人家駁回的話應該在法條裡面規範讓他立即可以去申請大官釋憲由大法官去解決所以中選會不可以駁回嗎我認為如果從我剛剛的研究報告立場上面來講從這個立場其實是可以讓他駁回但是後面接續的就是馬上"},{"start":10915.005,"end":10925.948,"text":"那個憲法解釋的問題可是中選會沒有權利嘛沒有權利駁回我們的公投案嘛如果照你剛剛的論點的話我們應該就是要辦理嘛那如果認為有問題的話再送交這個把憲政機關請申請釋憲的問題嘛對 所以這個部分的話就是好那其他機關是不是有辦法權利解釋違憲的問題"},{"start":10939.352,"end":10964.214,"text":"其他機關對行政機關可不可以解釋違憲的問題實際上來講每個行政機關基本上來講都是在依據憲法來做成決定對所以說好但是呢最終而言決定有沒有違憲的問題的時候就要變成是大法官對那所以說針對這個軍人加薪跟提高警校人員所得替代率的法律是否違憲其實應該不是行政院長說了算吧"},{"start":10965.034,"end":10983.286,"text":"應該是要申請這個大法官釋憲由大法官來決定那在還沒有宣判違憲之前是不是就是合乎憲法在您這個法律學者的這樣子一個我覺得這個憲政爭議而言應該要交由大法官來處理但是因為行政院認為他是違憲的違憲之前就是合乎憲法嗎"},{"start":10984.066,"end":11000.448,"text":"行政院認為它是違憲就像定出來的某些制度內立法院也有可能認為它是違憲的在你是法律學者的這樣子的一個立場你是不是針對這個部分就是只要還沒辦違憲之前就是合乎憲法只要還沒辦還沒有判違憲之前是不是就合乎憲法"},{"start":11001.277,"end":11007.305,"text":"跟委員報告就是每個行政機關他可能會認為他這個法條是違憲的所以最終他可能會去申請實現的去做主意的因為你在國會改革的審議階段你多次的公開批評在野黨的修法是違憲擴權可是當這個中選會駁回我們的公投的時候"},{"start":11019.58,"end":11043.856,"text":"你卻沉默了你卻沒有站出來講說這個部分依法的話是應該不該駁回應該要依法宣證所以我覺得站在這個立場的話我覺得被提名人你好像就是只有在監督在野黨不監督執政黨敢宣出來的就是表現了一個這個好像是側翼的行為而且你的書面也回答了就是中選會是違法但是你的沉默卻證明了你也不敢得罪民進黨所以當有這樣的一個狀況的時候"},{"start":11045.936,"end":11052.514,"text":"我們要 你要如何說服我們這些被審 這個審查委員你未來能夠超然獨立的行使你的職權"},{"start":11053.615,"end":11080.988,"text":"我在2015年的時候我就說我要跟蔡英文劃清界限了這件事情其實報紙都有報導過這次的審查我想你要說服的是這一次被審查的委員他們的想法那另外一點呢就是我們在第一題就有提到的就是有關公投綁大選如何順利的進行那您的回答是說只要把場地租大一點分流做好工作人員增加然後提高行政效率"},{"start":11081.928,"end":11107.307,"text":"亂象 107年的亂象就不會重演這是您這是您回覆的是嗎那你這樣是不是就在說明了就民進黨這幾年說公投這個107年的公投綁大選選務亂是因為這個因為公投綁大選的關係所以你現在就是在證明說當時民進黨這幾年的說法純粹就是為了政治算計而做這樣子的說謊的一個行為嗎"},{"start":11108.928,"end":11132.542,"text":"107年確實當初2018年確實公投榜大選的那一天大選日的混亂狀況這個大家都看得出來是因為選務沒有規劃好嗎所以你才會提出來說接下來你就可以把選務怎麼規劃好所以你剛回答是這樣嗎但是那一天確實就是有十個十個公投案那就是因為表示你的人力還不夠嗎你分流沒有做好嗎這是你在回答中"},{"start":11132.922,"end":11145.873,"text":"可以解決的問題的方式所以說我們這邊是不是也就代表說以前上一次的2018年的公投中選會沒有辦好是因為人的問題是因為人無能而不是因為並大選"},{"start":11148.075,"end":11171.043,"text":"所以你在回答問題我覺得在2018年確實選務工作做得不完善所以說是因為這樣所以這幾年民進黨一直在講說公投綁大選造成選務的混亂其實不是因為公投綁大選事實上是真正能夠展現民意真正讓每個民眾能夠有機會去表達他自己的意志的時間所以我想您在這個整個回覆中也已經"},{"start":11172.271,"end":11200.933,"text":"已經這樣子充分的回答了說您針對公投綁大選覺得這個選務的部分其實的亂象不是因為綁大選而是因為行政座有沒有做好嗎是這樣嗎因為其他國家有些國家確實是沒有綁大選那我認為說如果真的要綁大選我們就必須要把選務工作處理做正因為在你問題的一些言論跟立場事實上你是反對公投綁大選的那當然今天我在研究報告是寫我支持"},{"start":11201.873,"end":11218.841,"text":"對 你在你的 但是你看喔你在這個自由時報的這個對 專欄裡面我寫你是這個空頭綁大選只會毀了公投本質喔這是你以前的說法 對那我們希望說不要因為今天是未來來擔任副主委所以你就改變你過去的說法到底我們要相信哪一個你"},{"start":11219.241,"end":11237.435,"text":"是同意公投綁大選的你還是反對公投綁大選委員因為我們現在法條已經改了我們未來就是要因應一件事情就是要綁大選我們要預防的一件事情就是2018年的那個狀況出現希望您不要是因為為了要擔任這個副主委這個職務而去出賣您原來的一個這個"},{"start":11238.796,"end":11250.606,"text":"自己的一個學術的一個良知還是希望您能夠如果未來您有幸能夠擔任副主委的話一定要秉持公正 超然獨立的立場來行使職權謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝徐益臻委員質詢我們現在有時間要委員質詢"},{"start":11272.05,"end":11299.547,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們被提名人副主委被提名人胡老師胡教授教授首先我想要先分享喔有一個就是被歐巴馬總統任命的第一位女性的這個司法部長哈佛的第一位的女性院長叫做Elena Kagan2010年歐巴馬提名她那這位美國的女性大法官他有一句名言"},{"start":11300.339,"end":11321.068,"text":"我觉得想要分享给大家也许胡教授您也非常的了解这句名言呢他说my politics would be must be have to becompletely separatefrom my judgment意思是我有我个人的政治意识的形态我有我个人的政治"},{"start":11321.795,"end":11342.64,"text":"形象或是我的政治主張但是這跟我的判決是完全兩碼子事他是完全會抽離的當他成為大法官的那一天他勢必要專業的去判準他的每一個判決而且依據憲法所以他的politics每個人有自己的politics"},{"start":11343.18,"end":11361.605,"text":"我有您有每一個委員都有但是當大家被提名成為中選會的委員未來渴望上任的時候請切記超越黨派超越個人的政治意識形態首先合法是必要的我相信胡教授非常同意這位Elena Kagan她的主張"},{"start":11362.375,"end":11391.324,"text":"其实也是物资要我个人的主张所以说下一页我刚刚在垂询这个主委被提名人游云龙先生的时候我也提到成功选务的三要素就是公正效率跟便民而中选会委员的四要件独立专业公正跟守线守法守线守法非常的重要唯有回到守线守法的基准我们才能够超越自己的politics"},{"start":11391.804,"end":11415.299,"text":"自己的政治意識的型態您同意嗎同意那麼在首先守法的這個範圍裡頭我對於剛剛因為時間有限游盈隆被提名人主委的被提名人他一直長期在論述的他個人認為這個罷免是災難的這件事情我尊重他的言論自由但是如果今天"},{"start":11416.658,"end":11443.921,"text":"成為中選會未來要獨立行使職權而且是首先守法的主委的時候回歸憲法的精神就非常重要憲法第17條所規範的人民有選舉罷免創制復決之權這是中華民國的憲法所以人民依據憲法所提出的罷免我希望過去的游盈隆學者跟未來的游盈隆主委"},{"start":11444.406,"end":11452.882,"text":"他的主張勢必要首先合法要脫離他個人的politics那您怎麼看這個命題呢您怎麼看待人民發起的大罷免"},{"start":11453.547,"end":11481.209,"text":"包委員我這個意見其實跟委員一樣但是我不要我其實某些方面也是認為說罷免制度其實在很多國家現在目前其實是被檢討的但是我們確實在憲法17條就寫著我們有罷免的權利這個是我們沒有辦法去否定的一件事情因為它寫在憲法裡面人民委員會跑來跟你講說我就可以罷免誰所以說首先守法很重要"},{"start":11482.757,"end":11511.603,"text":"個人作為學者的身份可以有自己的政治主張但一旦被提名成為國家的中選會的委員的時候首先手法就是重要的基準請尊重人民依據憲法所發動的基本公民權而我更要說大罷免是人民發動的而大惡罷才是國民黨發動的吳斯堯我本人就是受害者就是當事人我到現在還是中華民國史上被罷免者"},{"start":11512.093,"end":11531.774,"text":"的最高被偽造連署的份數2674份這份記錄負面的記錄還標記在我身上我非常的遺憾這是被發動大惡霸一方用違法的方式來僭越了來踐踏了憲法珍貴的人民父權我要在這裡提出"},{"start":11532.702,"end":11544.919,"text":"下一頁剛剛提到不再急投票我也都說即便要變名也要讓公正選舉跟選舉的效率不打折所以大家都有共識公投先行下一頁"},{"start":11546.007,"end":11572.514,"text":"各縣市政府有這樣的共識選務機關有這樣的共識所以請支持行政院的版本下一頁那回到這一頁就是說公投綁大選2018年的選務混亂只有2成8的人民同意而高達6成9的人民不滿意這就告訴我們公投綁大選需要有很好的機制配套未來好現在立法院修法通過"},{"start":11573.334,"end":11596.12,"text":"未來可能公投綁大選會再上路但是選務機關的責任就是維持它的運行不會混亂不會造成人民在選舉投票行使的不便利性那我就要問來下一頁您個人確實有主張但是我認為這個論述還是要再精確一點"},{"start":11597.202,"end":11611.739,"text":"依據公投法第10條中選會就主管機關對於不管人民發動的罷免對不起人民發動的公投或者是立法院發動的公投你還是必須去去審核他是不是符合法律跟憲法的規範對不對"},{"start":11613.137,"end":11636.784,"text":"我是認為他還是要有初步的審核那如果有問題就直接讓他去憲法法庭去做但是現在謝謝你提供未來立法院可能在修法的一個方向但目前並沒有您所說的這個條文就是說如果在中選會在認定在審核上的判準有所異議應當由憲法法庭來做最終的審議這是"},{"start":11638.504,"end":11654.279,"text":"未來法律所沒有的而這可能也會衍生另外的問題因為憲法法庭在審議釋憲的過程還有一定的程序那人民所發動他的對於部分的主張或是立法院的公投案本身也許在時程上沒有辦法等"},{"start":11655.34,"end":11682.896,"text":"這也會有其他衍生的問題但回到現在的法律的規範如果公投綁大選要讓他能夠不至於造成選務的混亂就是我們必須精確的讓合法首先的公投案才能上路不是嗎某些方面是否則從107年到115年我調閱了中選會的資料人民發動的公投案有69案您知道中選會駁回多少案嗎"},{"start":11683.872,"end":11711.259,"text":"不知道35案成立的34案換言之有一半的比例中選會的這個把關還是需要的因為他需要在首先合法的規範公投法第二條就規範了全國性公投跟地方性公投都有適用的要件而且他要符合憲法規定所以在人民發動的公投案裡頭從107年到15年有一半以上經過中選會的把關"},{"start":11713.479,"end":11724.585,"text":"有一半成立一半駁回這會避免了過多的公投你沒有去審核他是不是合法合憲你也必須去把關否則公投綁大選天啊2018年那種噩夢幾十案又來了同樣的立法院的公投案"},{"start":11732.748,"end":11745.422,"text":"立法院的公投案也是要守憲合法所以就像我說的用公投法的修正來推翻憲法的解釋是可以的嗎是可以的嗎"},{"start":11745.953,"end":11767.069,"text":"我覺得這個會觸犯到法治國原則的要求所以我是建議我非常理解您在法律上的一些理解但我認為發言要非常的嚴謹我也希望社會不要錯誤的解讀副主委您認為未來委員針對公投法是否合法合憲合規完全沒有審核把關的權利這非常危險"},{"start":11769.651,"end":11796.629,"text":"你在審核的不是政治的意識形態而是它有沒有符合國家公投的制度的法律的授權跟憲法的授權 您同意嗎同意我給您再最後一次去更正調整您的說法好嗎對於未來如果您當選通過立法院的同意權針對人民發動的公投案跟立法院所發動的公投案您認為中選會獨立機關要進行什麼樣子的把關我認為的把關都是屬於最低限度的把關"},{"start":11797.949,"end":11825.206,"text":"最低限度的不要過分的去干涉我們整個議案裡面內容避免中選會過度的逾越這件事情但是我想最低的限度的要求其實應該是可以達成的守法守憲這就是我們共同的底線好嗎依法行使職權我提醒所有的被提名人沒有政治意識形態而是依法守憲做我們該做的事情這樣你就能夠有很強的底氣不受政治所威脅"},{"start":11826.021,"end":11828.103,"text":"好嗎我們一起加油謝謝胡教授謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳斯亞委員質詢我們現在稱召之委員"},{"start":11847.268,"end":11872.119,"text":"多謝主席有請副主委被提名人 胡教授胡教授 雖然有委員有提到但是我對於您曾經投書媒體認為這個公學綁大頭會讓這個公投認為政黨這個對決的工具那甚至就是喪失了這個公投的這個本質這件事我還是要再請教你請問您現在對於公投綁大選還是這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":11872.719,"end":11881.28,"text":"我會認為如果可以的話讓它其實是不同天其實是一個可以的決定的選擇但是我們現在是要面對的問題是"},{"start":11882.594,"end":11902.115,"text":"法條已經修過了他就是要同天投票但是胡教授我了解你認為公投綁大選可能會讓政黨來主導這個公投議題造成公投失焦可是我的想法剛好跟你相反公投基本上這個公投綁大選基本上是強迫政黨或政治人物他必須他不能迴避他必須針對這個議題去做他的主張或是表態"},{"start":11905.518,"end":11928.325,"text":"那就是說讓選民也能夠有機會知道這個參選人他對於這個議題的想法跟態度根據這個議題他來做出他的選舉的決定換句話說您擔心的是這個公投會影響這個政黨會影響公投可是我的看法剛好是相反的我認為是人民做主的公投"},{"start":11929.125,"end":11936.997,"text":"反而會去影響這個政黨因為我相信台灣選民的數字是越來越高啊他們不見得是根據顏色去投票他們會根據議題看議題然後就來做這個選擇胡教授您贊同我的說法嗎我贊同"},{"start":11944.249,"end":11958.475,"text":"那過去的經驗就是我想你也非常清楚這個單獨舉行的公投他的投票率非常低資訊流通是有限的那結果往往被高度動員反而有可能讓政黨更容易去去做主導"},{"start":11959.936,"end":11979.407,"text":"綁大選你至少可以讓參與率是提高的參與率是提高讓公投的結果更能夠去反映整體選民的整體意志那您剛剛也一再提到修法已經通過了那我認為今年年底的地方選舉很可能很可能就是同時會舉辦公投那我要請問"},{"start":11980.627,"end":12000.643,"text":"這個胡教授因為您過去是反對的當然你現在要尊重這個法律已經通過的事實可是您能夠如實的去執行立法院通過的修法嗎你怎麼樣說服立法院還有台灣人民說你會按照這個修法你會公正如實的去把選務辦好你怎麼來說服"},{"start":12001.263,"end":12026.246,"text":"包委員我們在2018年因為公投綁大選的混亂之後因為當天有10個公投案確實造成一些混亂其實中選會在這邊其實針對整體的選務有做過改革所以在分流制度上面來講其實是已經達成了所以只要公投的案件數不會太多的話我相信其實當天可以秩序其實是可以被掌控的"},{"start":12028.647,"end":12046.276,"text":"我們是擔心說您會不會如實我會如實去辦好這件事情你的主張 我也同意你個人的主張跟這個作為有時候是可以分開的但是你的責任就是要遵守你的責任我想請教你對不在籍投票的看法民眾黨所提的不在籍投票其實是限於台灣島內 國內"},{"start":12048.697,"end":12067.288,"text":"這個移轉投票我們希望讓這個事實上你過去參與的時代力量目前還是也是這樣主張的請問胡教授您現在是支持國內移轉投票嗎我支持國內移轉投票你支持移轉投票這樣我們可以幫助就業就學的因素而不用這個周遮勞頓回到這個戶籍地來投票那但是"},{"start":12071.57,"end":12099.509,"text":"目前不再去投票是多數國家的一個做法連這個中南亞國家包括印尼菲律賓他們都做了那你知道前年印尼大選我們台灣的警察出來幫助幫助這個這個秩序的維安所以這個是我是覺得很丟臉我們可以幫助別的國家結果我們到目前為止還不允許還不允許我們的國民能夠做這個這個移轉這個投票所以我想說是剛剛胡教授您說您是支持的"},{"start":12100.45,"end":12104.782,"text":"那我們法過了以後 你也會按照這個去辦理對不對我們"},{"start":12106.041,"end":12130.624,"text":"立法院法律通過之後中選會會依據立法院所通過的選罷法等相關法規或公民投票法來處理我希望吳教授能夠遵守法律因為我們現在看太多期行政院長沒有遵守法律立法院通過的法律把它視為空氣形同空氣那我再想請教你一件事受刑人權利有民間團體認為非常關注受刑人跟羞辱人的投票權"},{"start":12131.525,"end":12159.825,"text":"那過去中情會認為根本不可能在在監投票那這等於完全剝奪了受刑人跟收容人的他這個憲法賦予的權利那我知道胡教授您在11月去年你也主持過在收容人投票權研討會擔任這個主持人胡教授你認為收容人跟受刑人有沒有投票權我先問你有沒有投票權有投票權只要他們沒有被褫奪公認他們就有投票權那如果有你要怎麼落實呢"},{"start":12160.492,"end":12175.252,"text":"我覺得在投開票所的設置上面來講我們因為要兼顧到公開化以及安全的問題這個部分其實我覺得不管是中選會或者法務部其實應該更努力來解決這問題因為他們有些人不是不在急有些人其實急就在監鎖"},{"start":12176.894,"end":12202.171,"text":"你提到的還是技術面問題嘛你在歐洲嘛歐洲他們就是很多人就有很多國家他就設了這個在間投票嘛這個你們你過去所屬的時代力量他們也是一直用這樣做例子嘛所以胡教授你認為是可行的嗎我認為可行這一次就可以辦了嗎年底的選舉就可以辦了嗎這個我不確定這個可能要跟幕僚機關以及各省市選委會來辦但是從我的觀點來講我一直都認為這是可以做的"},{"start":12206.155,"end":12217.698,"text":"可以做就要去做啊我也會去從我的觀點我也會去推行這件事情謝謝謝謝吳教授謝謝我們感謝陳昭芝委員質詢現在中途我們不需要休息繼續開會因為現在12點了在這裡我們鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":12248.117,"end":12265.225,"text":"福教授好原住民選舉前的困境沒有聽過吧我有聽過原住民議題我其實也有熟悉謝謝你的關注秘密投票"},{"start":12266.994,"end":12290.328,"text":"原住民很多的選舉沒有秘密投票的一個情形雖然憲法規定的很明確無記名投票是方法行之但是因為原住民從原鄉到都會區工作的非常多然後遷积的也很多"},{"start":12291.263,"end":12319.099,"text":"所以相關的這些事實上在都會期原住民的人口數已經達到50%有社會籍的已經達到50%左右所以這樣的一個情形之下一個投票所只有一個人的就有以平地原住民來講就有966人一個投票所兩個人的以平地原住民講來說就是1034"},{"start":12321.127,"end":12345.306,"text":"如果包括三個人的總共有2900多將近3000人那我們看山地原住民山地原住民也是一樣也有類似這樣子情形一到三人的總共有3235人所以他投票給誰一開票就知道他投票給誰所以他就變成說"},{"start":12347.805,"end":12365.896,"text":"會考慮是不是要不要去投票會有這樣的一個情形所以這樣的一個情形怎麼樣去保障憲法徵修條文第十條第十二項保障原住民的政治參與政治參與除了參政權之外還有選舉權選舉權本席透過質詢請這個中選會要這個"},{"start":12375.939,"end":12400.956,"text":"解決秘密投票 質詢了非常非常的多次因為事實上是可以 不修法其實是可以的以公職人員選舉辦人法第57條第三項 原住民公職人員選舉得徵走實際情形 單獨設置投票所或在選舉區內辦理投票"},{"start":12403.789,"end":12430.869,"text":"事實上只有規定 但是一直沒有辦法落實所以本席不得不修法所以今年 去年12月26號三讀通過為保障原住民秘密投票權益 應單獨設置投票然後不受第17條第一項應在戶籍地投票之限制當初在修法的討論的時候中選會還是不支持"},{"start":12432.211,"end":12461.103,"text":"所以這樣的部分如果這個副教授能夠擔任副主委或者是其他的被提名人也能夠擔任委員希望落實這次的一個修正的條例可以嗎 可以接下來談不在己投票原住民族的不在己投票事實上最可以先實施的是"},{"start":12462.153,"end":12483.501,"text":"立法委員因為原住民的立法委員的選區是台澎金所以跟總統一起選舉所以原住民要實施不在籍投票是應該最優先來辦理是可以執行的因為我們每一個投票所都有我們的選民"},{"start":12485.27,"end":12505.878,"text":"都有投票所了就是移轉投票就很容易了因為每個台北市每個都有原住民的投票所所以這個部分是可以先實施的因為沒有實施所以造成我們原住民與非原住民的投票率的差異你想想看以3D原住民來講我們就講第11屆立委"},{"start":12507.546,"end":12535.312,"text":"差距13.83%投票率平地原住民是7%多這樣的一個落差就是因為太遠了我們看這個台灣地圖一個住台北市的鄉親他要到蘭嶼投票回去他的戶籍地就很遠不要說蘭嶼就到屏東或是到台東都非常非常的遠而且還要到山上"},{"start":12536.531,"end":12563.215,"text":"不是到了台東火車站之後 還要到山上所以這個原住民族的不在籍投票更是有它的一個需要性我看了這個印尼 在台灣我們的外勞 印尼的外勞在台灣都是 都投票所以在台灣投票在台灣還不只 不是只有在台北市每個縣市都有投票所"},{"start":12564.498,"end":12587.33,"text":"像這樣他們都可以受得到這樣的一個情形我們確實做不到我們真的是要加油所以這個部分也希望我們這個胡教授以及各位被提名人到了中選會之後能夠優先支持嚴肅民主的不在己投票 可以嗎可以 沒問題謝謝我們感謝鄭天才委員資訊"},{"start":12593.496,"end":12610.125,"text":"咱家習星雲委員 習星雲委員不在咱家省花卉 省花卉委員不在葉延芝 葉延芝 葉延芝不在"},{"start":12619.888,"end":12635.819,"text":"在這被提名人胡柏彥先生所說明和質詢的都已經結束完畢委員習新英提出書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":12641.357,"end":12649.721,"text":"再來我們比提名人的吳博言先生可以先離席可以先離席我們現在的休訓五分鐘"},{"start":12666.591,"end":12677.897,"text":"我們繼續國分前後繼續進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明價值詢問謝謝大家辛苦了"},{"start":12807.111,"end":12807.234,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":13060.815,"end":13066.638,"text":"來 繼續開會 進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明和詢答請黃文玲女士說明主席"},{"start":13077.857,"end":13092.868,"text":"各位委員各位在場的先進大家午安大家好我是黃文玲那這次非常榮幸的能夠受到這個行政院提名為這次的中選會委員的被提名人"},{"start":13093.368,"end":13105.019,"text":"那今天來這裡呢也是要跟大家來分享就是說我其實民國83年就考上律師那一直擔任律師到現在那在期間呢在2012年到"},{"start":13108.842,"end":13129.315,"text":"14年的時候擔任第八屆的立法委員那有短暫的時間在立法院那時候也是在內政委員會那期間呢我在過去從事這個律師的職務其實有辦理非常多的這個選罷法的案件包括會選案當選人這個資格不私認的案子還有"},{"start":13130.035,"end":13143.805,"text":"就是譬如說有假訊息的案件等等所以在實務上或許能夠提供給未來的中選會一些建言當然我本身在2004年的時候還有2014跟18也都參與過"},{"start":13148.548,"end":13168.503,"text":"立法委員的選舉及彰化縣長的選舉在選舉的過程當中當然就會有非常多的選務的紛爭我想我們主席也是身經百戰大家都也很清楚就是選舉可能會遇到的一些糾紛我覺得這一次的被提名人裡面"},{"start":13169.444,"end":13185.009,"text":"其實跟上一屆的感覺上好像比較多的出入因為上一屆我看實務界的律師有好幾位那這一次的被提名人裡面大部分都是學者專家而且都是憲政的學者專家那實務界的好像律師就只有我一人"},{"start":13185.669,"end":13207.825,"text":"那我希望說如果未來有機會擔任中選會的委員我們除了要讓中選會要保持他的獨立性中立性及公正性之外還要維護他的專業跟可信賴性那當然在這個過程之中選務的過程之中確實有非常多的可能會"},{"start":13208.525,"end":13224.542,"text":"涉及到紛爭的部分會影響到這個選務工作人員的部分所以未來如果有機會的話我們也是應該要來維護我們選務人員的尊嚴那以上那希望說就是能夠對這個中選會能夠有所貢獻謝謝謝謝 感謝說明我們這裡黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":13240.428,"end":13264.453,"text":"謝謝主席 我請被提名人請讓我們被提名人委員好 好久不見我稱呼您黃律師好黃律師很高興在這邊看到您尤其是您的父親是以前非常受敬重的中選會的主委我想中選會也好或者是任何選委會的委員都需要"},{"start":13265.373,"end":13282.334,"text":"移植相關的公正跟獨立性那民主選舉的過程裡面不是只有最後一天的結果我想過程很重要過程的公平包括更多的所謂的不孝方法或者是說有一些不正當的方式造成了選舉的不公"},{"start":13283.188,"end":13300.472,"text":"那我個人比較我看到你的問卷大概到大部分都有回答不過我今天要問的是根據有關選舉過程裡面其實最大的一塊叫做媒體不公媒體不公的部分在各個法律其都規定得非常清楚總統副總統選罷法46條還有公職人員選罷法49條在廣播電視"},{"start":13306.013,"end":13331.728,"text":"也從事選舉或罷免相關議題的論證新聞報導或邀請候選人罷免案提議人或被罷免人的參加節目要公正公平處理不可以有無正當理由的差別待遇但是這麼多年來我相信你也選過去我們只要是非所謂主流媒體的支持的對象大概都會在很多媒體中被消失"},{"start":13332.581,"end":13355.393,"text":"包括在我想去年的總統大選也非常的清楚2024的總統大選非常清楚的是某個藍媒 綠媒現在已經台灣人都有一定的既定的印象你會看到有一些藍媒看不到綠色的綠媒看不到藍色的那更糟糕的像台灣民眾黨我們是中間所以兩邊都看不到"},{"start":13356.834,"end":13369.631,"text":"這個部分我們曾經也提出過很嚴肅的控訴那NCC有回答說查無證據啦我們也有檢舉但是回去要給中選會所以我們就不禁要去查到在101年"},{"start":13370.888,"end":13393.858,"text":"在105年其實中選會都曾經對於媒體沒有邀請平衡報導或者是沒有邀請到這些所有的參選人而開罰的紀錄我想請問您您對第一媒體在選舉過程中沒有依法行事第二個105年到現在已經快10年了沒有塵埃任何一個媒體處罰"},{"start":13394.898,"end":13409.756,"text":"所以反而我們會懷念您父親當時當中選會主委的時候我們還有道德勇氣對媒體做相關的裁罰如果有這樣的案子我想知道您的想法跟您對於選舉公平應該在媒體上面怎麼樣來維護中選會的獨立性跟公正性"},{"start":13414.597,"end":13440.218,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想剛剛你提到這個部分其實我深受感同因為我其實我在2014年到18年這兩次彰化縣長選舉我就是以無黨籍的身份參選但是確實是媒體就是全部都把我們的新聞全部都消失被消失掉所以我可以感受到就是說就是選委會在這個"},{"start":13441.319,"end":13462.866,"text":"辦理選舉的過程之中其實它是必須要秉持公正客觀的態度而且其專業的部分那至於就是特定的媒體那他們是不是可以就針對這個部分就是被選舉人就是沒有做公平的報導的部分是不是應該裁罰的部分其實我記得我那時候有去抗議過"},{"start":13463.806,"end":13493.446,"text":"但是似乎是好像沒有作用因為他們認為那個是NCC的所以這就是我們今天中選會其實在101年曾經罰過當時是華氏在政見發表會之後沒有播出某個候選人的會後記者會被裁罰了20萬基本的該有的所以我認為中選會應該要有基本的就是法律的價值它的價值就是要維護選舉的公正公平"},{"start":13493.886,"end":13523.232,"text":"然後每個這個候選人都能夠在這個媒體上能夠被揭露我想大家都可能很清楚的知道這個公正性的確在現今的台灣媒體環境裡面做不到但是我相信中選會應該要做到中選會如果中選會還有道德勇氣的話我們十年來都沒有成過半子案子但是105年那時候還有某些節目只邀請特地的候選人還有"},{"start":13523.832,"end":13550.867,"text":"只邀請某些特定的沒有給予其他選區同樣的候選人相同的機會就被裁罰了40萬跟20萬這是我想中選會委員必須要秉持的一個中正的立場所以他們那個時候的中選會委員可能有道德勇氣才會做這樣的一個裁量所以我們也期待我們未來有機會擔任委員的話也希望能夠秉持這樣一個立場是 只要依法就好公平就好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13554.336,"end":13580.236,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝黃珊珊委員北提名人黃文玲女士在說明和詢問已經結束我們北提名人黃文玲女士可以先行離席我們休訓五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":13600.777,"end":13611.381,"text":"謝謝大家的收看"},{"start":13632.579,"end":13645.603,"text":"謝謝大家謝謝大家"},{"start":13673.537,"end":13673.557,"text":"來,請坐"},{"start":13678.372,"end":13702.382,"text":"那個要不要就是因為我們就就是就我們一個人一個人這樣看他的狀況但是我覺得就是"},{"start":13704.722,"end":13723.253,"text":"我覺得 我等一下去跟他溝通好了因為我們 因為目前的話我們諮詢人就我們諮詢人可以拖八分 等一下還要等一下我算一下 四分多 八分多"},{"start":13735.708,"end":13757.381,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13768.275,"end":13783.93,"text":"喔 可以可以 因為報告人是八分鐘 然後兩分鐘對 對 對 說明大概幾分鐘就三分鐘兩分鐘 沒關係 因為我也在三樓 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13791.954,"end":13805.708,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13820.623,"end":13850.452,"text":"然後再下一個說明完再下一個所以它還有一遍大概就是這樣我會聽到我前面講的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話"},{"start":13866.325,"end":13866.365,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13890.919,"end":13899.364,"text":"來 我們繼續開會我們繼續進行被提名人李立忠先生的說明和詢問請中選會委員被提名人李立忠先生說明"},{"start":13914.861,"end":13932.458,"text":"王主席還有各位委員還有我們張秘書長還有各位在座的先生跟女士我是李李仲那很高興這次被我們行政院提名為中央選舉委員會委員的被提名人那我在此報告那我們都知道民主"},{"start":13933.839,"end":13958.77,"text":"選舉制度乃是憲政秩序與民主制度的一個核心那它的公正性跟可信賴性跟穩定性直接關係人民對我們台灣民主的一個信賴的關鍵中央選舉委員會肩負了選舉與公民投票的規劃執行與監督的重任"},{"start":13959.935,"end":13986.054,"text":"其專業性 獨立性跟依法行政對於民主制度之健全運作具有關鍵的意義唐友信擔任中央選舉委員會一職個人將超越黨派以維護憲法精神確保選舉公平強化制度信賴為最高自我期許"},{"start":13987.659,"end":14002.521,"text":"然而 擔任中央選舉委員會委員並非權力之所在而是責任與信賴之所繼本人之抱負在於以專業 理性與公正"},{"start":14003.78,"end":14020.969,"text":"首先合法協助台灣建構一個經得起政治競爭社會檢驗與歷史評價的選舉制度為我們民主發展盡一份長期而穩定的力量以上報告謝謝各位"},{"start":14024.705,"end":14042.041,"text":"謝謝感謝說明因為沒有委員長去接訊所以我們的李立中的說明到這裡 提名人李立中先生可以先行離席我們休訓兩分鐘謝謝"},{"start":14047.498,"end":14057.107,"text":"有機會這樣議席議席要不然坐在那裡聽一些大家留意的意見這樣也很好謝謝 辛苦辛苦有機會這樣"},{"start":14075.623,"end":14092.375,"text":"哎呀"},{"start":14100.401,"end":14112.586,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":14136.376,"end":14144.378,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14171.233,"end":14187.669,"text":"來 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生之說明跟詢問我們現在中選會委員被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生說明"},{"start":14196.281,"end":14208.906,"text":"主席 秘書長 麥委員 還有全體的女士們 先生們我是福音科技大學蘇嘉鴻蘇老師"},{"start":14210.917,"end":14237.499,"text":"我在這個學校任教已經有32年的歷史在去年因為種種的機緣巧合被推薦被提名所以有這個機會來這邊接受大家的提問我在這裡想要講兩件事情第一件事情"},{"start":14239.857,"end":14263.016,"text":"從早上到現在所有的委員們對被提名人的提問大概聚焦在幾件事情上面大概不外就是公投綁大選以及不在籍投票另外還有其他的問題不管怎麼樣這都是一個值得追求的"},{"start":14265.632,"end":14269.512,"text":"未來方向 它是一個值得追求的未來方向"},{"start":14270.58,"end":14296.194,"text":"但是我們必須要很誠實的去面對中選會現在當前的行政量能未來的考驗其實都在於未來的中選會能不能在自己的行政量能上面有所擴張 有所深化來因應這些挑戰"},{"start":14298.404,"end":14315.497,"text":"所以在一個值得追求的方向它代表了一種進步的價值但與此同時我們對於中選會的目前的行政量能卻沒有與時俱增的一種調整這完全是不現實的"},{"start":14317.079,"end":14342.805,"text":"那中選會的組織編制據說是57個然後預算編制是55個總之他不會超過60個人那地方選委會是負責選務工作所以不管是境外的或者是這個省委的啦等等的這些各式各樣的挑戰"},{"start":14344.113,"end":14364.228,"text":"那麼中選會其實是沒有辦法回應這個現代的時代需求跟社會的這樣的殷切的期待所以在這種情況之下我認為就是我要講的第二點中選會的委員們應該是要專任的目前是無幾職"},{"start":14368.666,"end":14376.903,"text":"那NCC跟這個公平會呢都是專任的那這個以兼任的"},{"start":14377.697,"end":14401.874,"text":"兼職的 無幾職的委員要來因應這些剛剛講過的重重的挑戰實在是分身乏術了 實在是分身乏術幸好此時此刻的審查會是在這個禮拜如果是在上週上上週的話是學期最後一週要辦這個"},{"start":14404.127,"end":14430.513,"text":"期末考 要簽考 要印考卷什麼的怎麼可能來呢要把本職工作薪水顧好所以這麼工作 這個工作這麼兼具對委員來講 確實無幾值的兼職這是一個很奇特的現象所以我們必須要讓獨立機關的獨立性因為委員的踴躍性獲得保障"},{"start":14431.383,"end":14459.479,"text":"那這個機關才能夠因應未來的這麼一些更多的一個挑戰那麼第二件事情就是說那麼有關於這個選舉罷免的訴訟選罷法的這個訴訟目前都還是在民事法院裡面它明明是公法訴訟那這個部分我們可能在未來也可以再重新做個調整跟思考以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":14462.782,"end":14467.985,"text":"謝謝感謝首名我們這裡定期麥一貞委員質詢謝謝主席 有請蘇老師蘇老師謝謝老師好 真的辛苦了"},{"start":14491.857,"end":14520.191,"text":"所以我們說想要請問一下因為現在的選舉制度你有說了就是憲政由內政部主管選務由中選會負責的分立設計原意在於落實責任政治就是維護選舉的中立但你也指出實務上因為全職的交"},{"start":14521.171,"end":14538.448,"text":"交換 所以呢 往往就是導致改革就是遲締甚至使中選會受制於行政關係難以回應高度流動社會於新型的風險所以呢 我想要請教兩點第一 在維持分立的架構下 你認為"},{"start":14545.695,"end":14569.137,"text":"中選會應清楚定位以依法執行選務的獨立機關而非非推上政治的正義第一線第二若短期仍維持分立體制是否通過交錯的任期專任化外部專家參與度透明等的"},{"start":14569.797,"end":14581.743,"text":"制度設計就是逐步強化中選會獨立性與公信力我們要的就是可以獨立作業嗎 這樣子的一個目標"},{"start":14583.439,"end":14599.071,"text":"是的 我原您的提問通通都是我的答案我就是肯定的很好 所以在我們的問卷裡面也有回覆指出說選舉權不是刑"},{"start":14602.413,"end":14627.282,"text":"形式的權利 而是國家必要積極保障的基本權 當人民因為求學啊就業啊 或者服役或職群無法返回戶籍投票的時候 我國家就是要提供替代制度 實質上就是就限制其他投票並"},{"start":14629.623,"end":14651.214,"text":"對年輕人還有流動人口造成不平等所以我們你認為在就是本人到場還有身份查驗也秘密投票的前提下國內移轉投票在實質上不是便利措施是"},{"start":14652.652,"end":14679.282,"text":"國家例行憲法保障參政的必要制度你也強調說國內轉移投票不同於資訊或者電子投票風險可控不宜被過度上網為國安問題那麼有立法完成不在籍投票的法治化的那個就是投票的法治化"},{"start":14680.12,"end":14692.096,"text":"你是否認為中選會在制度設計就是執行上應如何就是權力就是最大為原則從如何讓更合格"},{"start":14694.1,"end":14719.586,"text":"選民安全投票出發因為現在很多地方就是各國等於是說印尼 菲律賓他們都是可以就是在台灣在投票但是我在這邊強調的是說我們的民眾黨說的就是在台灣 在台灣 在台灣是移轉投票而已所以你覺得是說這樣子我們能做得到嗎"},{"start":14722.008,"end":14742.545,"text":"以目前国内的移转投票我认为中选会可能步步为赢也是步步为赢赢得胜利的赢这件事情我觉得中选会可能还可以勉强的"},{"start":14745.747,"end":14770.143,"text":"跟上社會的需求但是如果我們繼續做民主深化的話我們還要再做其他更大的發展的話以目前我再強調一次我所了解到的中選會的行政量能是做不到的所以必須要有所調整才能夠因應時代的變遷回應社會的需求 以上"},{"start":14771.363,"end":14797.666,"text":"中選會應該做得到現在我們是台灣是科技國家所以這個是說應該要做得到不是說還在不一定做得到我覺得這個是已經我們台灣已經應該要做得到的所以接下來我想要請教一下因為現在就是兩岸人民的關係明定大陸地區人民在"},{"start":14798.867,"end":14822.203,"text":"涉及滿十年還有我是外配也是滿十年就是依法登記為公職候選人但是立法則憲法徵定條文裡面第十一條所做出了特別規範但近期引發就是行政機關用國籍法張大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14828.787,"end":14854.174,"text":"人民比例外國人額外要求放棄所謂的外國國籍形同就是以行政解釋架空的特別法所以你在這邊也是就是你說理解所以你也是說依法依法就是涉及滿十年原則是大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14854.514,"end":14857.955,"text":"參政權是否以憲法保障的基本權應用優先因為在我們的兩岸條款這邊就是說優先應用所以排除國籍法的類型就是來去適用所以在目前我們的部會"},{"start":14875.522,"end":14892.814,"text":"法律見解出現就十分之甚至有行政官員公開宣稱說陸配參政權已死的情況下你是否認為說中選會應依特別法明文辦理選務而非"},{"start":14895.456,"end":14897.719,"text":"而非就是被動承受這樣子可能違憲的行政解釋以免就是實質剝奪人民的參政權報告委員"},{"start":14909.515,"end":14936.473,"text":"台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例相對於國籍法民法諸多的相關涉及的法律目前就是一種特別法優先適用於普通法的這樣的一種法律適用關係這是沒有疑問的如果啦在這個特別法的跟普通法的這種優先適用關係不成立的話"},{"start":14937.577,"end":14960.613,"text":"那大陸地區人民來談 繼承這個遺產的上限兩百兩百萬可能就會怎麼樣呢那就不用遵守了 回到民法它的印記份或者是什麼樣的那都很可能超過兩百萬所以這個特別法的問題 這是第一個第二個 這個叫做期待可能性"},{"start":14961.734,"end":14988.463,"text":"如果中國大陸是沒有放棄國籍的這樣的一種法治的話強要我們的大陸配偶回去大陸去放棄國籍在客觀上沒有其他可能性強人民之所難以此來剝奪人民的參政權這個我不能認同 以上報告"},{"start":14989.042,"end":15012.56,"text":"好 謝謝 再給我一分鐘謝謝主席 謝謝我們的老師給我們的說明所以我常講的就是說我們不要因出勝地來去決定我們在台灣的我們拿身份證是跟我們國民一模模一樣樣參選也是一模模一樣樣的當選也是一模模一樣樣不要再拿出勝地來去"},{"start":15013.741,"end":15020.589,"text":"就是在台灣努力的人所以在最後就是請教我們的教授你在問卷中也多次強調選舉制度的核心不在政治操作的便利而在"},{"start":15029.36,"end":15032.201,"text":"憲法持續的穩定以及人民參政權是否能對實質保障在這樣子的一個關鍵問題你是否未來擔任中選會的委員在面對高度的政治爭議或跨部會法律的見解的分支時"},{"start":15050.348,"end":15068.241,"text":"你將如何具體拿捏中選會作為獨立機關的分機確保制度解釋回到法律明定性以憲政的原則真正守住民主制度與人民參政權的長期保障是 報告委員那個超越黨派依法行政公正公開 以上報告"},{"start":15078.763,"end":15092.09,"text":"好 太好了 謝謝希望未來就是要看你要讓我們的國家正常運轉讓保障我們的人民 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 感謝麥真委員質詢南北提名人蘇嘉鳳先生的說明跟質詢都已經結束"},{"start":15105.802,"end":15114.647,"text":"被提名人舒嘉宏先生可以先行離席休息兩分鐘 謝謝大家"},{"start":15143.251,"end":15145.052,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":15153.558,"end":15173.178,"text":"因為是很方便,現在我們是在滿國之大地,很方便,因為如果東南歐,那是一個很舒服的地方,很舒服的地方"},{"start":15173.899,"end":15198.916,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":15204.111,"end":15209.814,"text":"慢慢來"},{"start":15241.724,"end":15255.032,"text":"謝謝 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人舒芝喬先生之說明和詢問請中選會的委員被提名人舒芝喬先生說明主席 黃委員各位委員"},{"start":15268.98,"end":15279.649,"text":"張秘書長還有在座各位先進 大家好非常榮幸能夠在這邊接受立法院的審查"},{"start":15283.568,"end":15299.828,"text":"很榮幸被台灣民眾黨推薦然後受行政院提名為中選會的被提名人我目前在東吳大學任教目前是東吳大學政治系的教授我自己的研究專長研究領域是"},{"start":15301.67,"end":15312.881,"text":"憲政體制還有選語制度那對於選語制度事實上有蠻多的這個世界各國選語制度有蠻多的一些觀察跟研究所以我自己個人認為就是說有這個機會有這個榮幸"},{"start":15317.626,"end":15334.906,"text":"如果能夠到中選會來服務的話其實是貢獻我自己的所長所以作為一個學者能夠進行公共服務有這樣的機會其實我是非常覺得是樂觀其成的而且也是覺得很榮幸能夠有機會擔任這樣的工作的"},{"start":15338.98,"end":15356.6,"text":"我對於自己的這個中選會的一個如果說將來能夠有機會能夠擔任中選委員的話我想我對自己的一個自我的定位是超越黨派然後依法行政然後公平公正的性質權雖然我是受台灣民眾黨所推薦但我不是台灣民眾黨的"},{"start":15358.121,"end":15380.522,"text":"政黨的代言人因為做一個中選會這樣的獨立機關我做一個研究憲政憲法的學者其實我對獨立機關本身的一個期許是相當的深厚的所以如果說我真的有機會有榮幸擔任中選會委員的話我想這是我一個對自己的一個非常深切的自我的期待自我期許"},{"start":15381.701,"end":15396.941,"text":"那就是我覺得中選會在過去這幾年來在政治的紛擾當中事實上確實它的公信力跟它的一些它的獨立性似乎受到社會各界的某一些質疑不過其實我還是相當"},{"start":15397.982,"end":15417.982,"text":"程度肯定這個中選會的同仁的在選務工作上的很多的努力那只是說在台灣目前這個朝野的這樣的一個對立情況之下不免會有一些對中選會這個獨立機關的這樣的一個一個政治上的一些批判那我認為就是說強化中選會的"},{"start":15420.203,"end":15442.335,"text":"公信力 獨立性是這個未來中選會要進一步去努力的一個方向那我也希望就是說我未來如果有幸作為一個中選會的委員在這個合一制的運作之下能夠貢獻自己所長然後這個對於這個台灣的民主深化民主鞏固以及這個民主的韌性盡一分心力我想我就簡短報告到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":15445.214,"end":15468.939,"text":"謝謝 感謝說明我們今天定期張祺凱委員質詢家屬教授 主席你先"},{"start":15471.638,"end":15498.671,"text":"所以說今天從游營榮游主委到副主委到目前最熱門的被問到的就是不在即投票了不在即投票游營榮游主委提到的是他贊成可是他要求從公投開始做事實上最近這幾天有看到民進黨立院黨團向前跨了一步立院黨團的幹事長鍾嘉斌講說必要的時候從總統大選都可以開始做"},{"start":15500.814,"end":15516.386,"text":"那我看你回答我們這個問卷你是贊成不再急投票的特別是台灣民眾黨現在提出來版本國內移轉投票有沒有可能 有沒有可能如果你獲得提名完之後我剛剛講的是三個階段"},{"start":15517.492,"end":15534.959,"text":"游英龍公投到了民進黨黨團連總統大選都可以了有沒有可能進來之後如果成功被提名通過這個中選會的這個提名之後進來之後有沒有可能在今年的年底縣市長的投票有可能可以做不在籍投票嗎"},{"start":15536.167,"end":15564.966,"text":"我想謝謝委員那個詢問就是不在於投票現在當然要等那個法律通過嘛所以中選會作為獨立機關最重要值得是依法行政啦所以我是很樂見就是說寫期待就是說這個不在於投票法能夠通過那事實上我覺得目前對於不在於投票的一些疑慮我想確實是存是我想可以肯定的事實上你剛提了一個非常重要依法行政是就是民眾黨這個版本已經提出來了"},{"start":15565.706,"end":15579.747,"text":"如果立法院三讀通過的民眾黨這個版本那就是中選會就在依法 依法憲政嘛 對不對那如果來得及的話就是今年年底的縣市長選舉可能就可以開始做這個台灣民眾黨這個版本而且這個版本"},{"start":15581.65,"end":15607.019,"text":"不是什麼有什麼國安餘力什麼境外勢力介入的他沒有國外也沒有兩岸我們這個界定的就是國內的移轉投票就是你還是要親自要去投跟你有提到說這跟通信投票又不一樣對不對所以執行上應該是沒有問題的那我問你一下因為剛剛有這個委員就回答說中選會的行政量能做不到你覺得做不做得到"},{"start":15608.209,"end":15632.064,"text":"我覺得中選會當然就是他會一個比較謹慎的態度在面對這個事情啦可是我自己會認為就是說如果真的法律已經通過了那中選會當然就是要盡力去配合辦理那我也認為中選會在一定的時間準備之下是應該有一定的準備的量能去推動這件事情的依法行政然後盡快推動是可以"},{"start":15632.484,"end":15661.614,"text":"有機會在年底依法來行政來做的對不對其實是有可能的事實上你是專門研究選舉的日本都已經實施不再舉投票大概二十幾年了二十幾年了我看那個報導上面寫他說日本連在攔戟日本人去攔戟都可以投票他們甚至可以提前投票跟美國都是一樣的南韓也有嘛他們號稱科技大國怎麼我們的技術是有問題的連我們的移工"},{"start":15663.364,"end":15690.604,"text":"在台灣的印尼的移工 菲律賓的移工他們都有投票啊所以老實講我們要趕快去推動要不然真的會被世界上笑啦好 OK這個題希望你以後可以盡力去推動那當然就是可能有些人可能意見會不一樣可是最重要最重要的就是這個法有沒有在最近完成三讀另外我看你的回答裡面有一個非常重要的這個上次總統大選的時候啊有一個非常有名的這個網紅"},{"start":15693.528,"end":15710.901,"text":"愛麗莎莎 她因為轉發了有些民眾有在質疑說是不是有作票結果後來你們中選會就告了她了後來沒有起訴 黃國昌就在問她說中選會到後來一句抱歉都沒說 你怎麼看這樣一個事情"},{"start":15713.269,"end":15734.61,"text":"我想中選會作為一個獨立機關它的基本的做法應該以公開呈現為主要優先的一個選項我想提起訴訟這個是一個比較相對來講我覺得個人來講是一個比較激烈手段呈現把事實呈現不是急於去輕鬆你的態度是這樣所以以後希望中選會不要急著去輕鬆最後問一個問題最要緊的問題"},{"start":15737.886,"end":15753.351,"text":"這個去年引起最大爭議的就是國民黨提了實質廢死的這個公投在中選會被廢掉了你怎麼看這樣一個事情如果你當選了中選會的這個委員之後如果再來提一次這個實質廢死這個案子你會怎麼樣來處理這個案子"},{"start":15757.492,"end":15782.386,"text":"這個問題確實是比較在憲政協議上我覺得是比較有真理的不過我簡單回答就是立法院所提的公投案依照目前這個公投法的規定其實中選會是沒有審查權的所以當立法院真的提了這樣公投案我想中選會我如果說這個案子重新這個同樣發生的話中選會必須依法辦理那只是說確實這個用憲法"},{"start":15783.286,"end":15807.609,"text":"就是公投去推翻憲法判決本身這個事情的這個議題我覺得我作為一個學者我是有一點疑慮的不過作為一個中選會這個獨立機關的角色我認為就是依法行政我想這是最優先的考量中選會去沒收立法院的這個提案那不就變成是太上立法院了對不對 而且你講到一個重點你今天質詢 我覺得你答詢得非常好你都是依法行政在做事情所以如果這個案子如果"},{"start":15808.67,"end":15815.296,"text":"最近又被提出來 請依法行政來做事情不要急於去沒收 好不好好 好 非常謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 我們感謝張之凱委員質詢"},{"start":15828.578,"end":15850.395,"text":"我們繼續經營被提名人蘇志喬先生說明跟詢問都已經結束了在這裡被提名人蘇志喬先生可以先行離席我們休息兩分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":15858.928,"end":15867.874,"text":"一幕,一幕啦,我們要五分啊,改兩分啊,開始啦,前輩,前輩,馬上好,欸,兩分鐘啊,DJ,啊,這樣喔,這個,這個,這個,這個主持人,"},{"start":15891.894,"end":15900.716,"text":"今天等於說對我們來講就是七場啦所以一定要切啦對,對我們來講就是七場"},{"start":15912.664,"end":15925.411,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":15938.533,"end":15939.394,"text":"30秒30秒他有那個壓縮那個時間"},{"start":15967.372,"end":15979.099,"text":"我們繼續進行被提名人陳忠義先生說明及詢問這中選會委員被提名人陳忠義先生說明"},{"start":15990.647,"end":16006.678,"text":"主席 張紅蘿委員 吳啟明委員 在座各位官員我是這次中選委員被提名人陳忠義很榮幸也很高興能夠來立法院來答詢 接受審查"},{"start":16008.834,"end":16031.53,"text":"我想今天坐下來 我是當然 人家說好酒定慢醉不是淡於中宿 那我想今天聽了吳思瑤的選舉創意美學我們很有啟發 也聽到張宏祿委員對選辦法第98條之一虛為欠席戶籍 意圖使人當選五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":16032.23,"end":16044.938,"text":"所以我們都聽到很多委員的寶貴意見我們都會吸收來加以運用那我有能性的通過的話我一定會秉持公正公平獨立專業依法來執行職務謝謝各位 謝謝 以上謝謝 感謝蕭明我們前期的委員長黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在"},{"start":16064.195,"end":16077.851,"text":"比提名人陳忠義先生說明及諮詢已經結束了比提名人陳忠義先生可以先行離席"},{"start":16081.653,"end":16106.042,"text":"本次會議定期的這項跟問出委比提名人的本院委員除了不在場議員全都已經發言完畢 審討結束委員有蘇巧慧 莊瑞雄 高金樹梅"},{"start":16107.369,"end":16129.395,"text":"在博弈省發會所提出的書面執行列入紀錄 刊登公報委員會這順中間有要求提供相關資料與密度報告報告的部分將行政院與相關機關進行書面答覆"},{"start":16134.637,"end":16163.3,"text":"報告聯席會對院會交付審查行政院寒送中央委員選舉委員會委員提名名單游一龍為委員並為主任委員胡柏諺為委員並為副主委委員黃文玲"},{"start":16164.434,"end":16176.704,"text":"李立忠 蘇嘉鴻 蘇芝喬 陳忠義軍委委員請同意案"},{"start":16185.035,"end":16193.76,"text":"審查完均做以下的關係本院審查完均依六款依之前行使法第29條的第三項規定以2月13日依據審查報告"},{"start":16205.937,"end":16210.68,"text":"提請院會公決請問各位委員有沒有什麼意義沒有 我們就通過本案與院會討論的時候由王召集委員會補充說明請問各位委員 還有什麼問題沒有沒有 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我們現在開始開會請主任秘書報告出席委員人數報告委員會出席委員與主法定人數請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1782.455,"end":1800.975,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期財政委員會第十八次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十五年一月二十六日星期一九十二分至十二時二十八分地點群賢樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林德福委員等十四人列席委員王宏偉委員等六人"},{"start":1801.716,"end":1830.498,"text":"列席官員行政院經貿談判辦公室執命徐崇清行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝財政部部長莊翠雲今晚會主委彭金榮台灣證券交易所公司董事長林修銘財團法人中華民國櫃買中心董事長簡立忠中央銀行總裁楊金榮經濟部政策何靖昌農業部長賜杜文貞國發會副主委高仙貴財團法人中小企業信保基金董事長魏銘古紀齊"},{"start":1831.779,"end":1859.055,"text":"以上各單位所屬單位代表主席林昭吉委員失明報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定二 邀請行政院主計總署陳主計長淑芝財政部莊部長翠雲金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金融中央銀行楊總裁金融經濟部拱部長明星農業部陳部長俊記國家發展委員會葉主任委員俊賢就針對台美貿易"},{"start":1861.439,"end":1884.215,"text":"協議內容對國家整體財經、國內產業與就業、股會市場與各項民生通膨之影響與因應政策進行專題報告並被質詢經經管會彭主委、財政部莊部長、中央銀行楊總裁、經濟部何振次、農業部杜長次、國發會高副主委分別提出報告後,藉由委員林德福等13人提出質詢"},{"start":1885.356,"end":1907.77,"text":"均經以上各單位代表及相關人員予以答覆決定依報告局詢問完畢委員諮詢未及答覆及或請補充資訊請相關單位一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三 委員員寬恆 陳玉珍 林楚英 陳冠廷 林倩啟所提書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆宣讀完畢"},{"start":1909.005,"end":1934.867,"text":"好 請問各位委員對議事錄有異議沒有異議 議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀今日議程邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就統一發票經費編列及宣傳推廣業務執行情形進行專題報告並被執行宣讀完畢我們現在介紹在場委員我們第一位吳秉瑞委員好 謝謝"},{"start":1937.611,"end":1966.271,"text":"林德福委員陳玉珍委員我們今天與會的部長還有各位與會的相關單位我來逐一來介紹我們財政部莊翠雲部長國庫署陳伯承署長賦稅署宋秀琳署長"},{"start":1969.076,"end":1998.003,"text":"官務署蘇淑貞副署長國產署曾國基署長財資中心張文希主任台北國稅局謝惠美代理局長高雄國稅局溫培佑局長北區國稅局李雅菁局長中區國稅局樓美忠局長"},{"start":2000.168,"end":2028.401,"text":"南區國稅局陳惠琦局長我們接下來介紹我們八大行庫台灣金融控股股份有限公司董事長林中元林董事長 歡迎總經理施瑪莉施總 歡迎台灣銀行股份有限公司吳嘉曉吳總經理 歡迎台灣土地銀行何一鳴何董事長 歡迎"},{"start":2031.772,"end":2059.921,"text":"趙鋒金控董事長董瑞斌董事長歡迎總經理張傳章張總經理歡迎趙鋒國際商業銀行股份有限公司黃永珍黃總經理歡迎第一金控董事長邱月琴邱董事長歡迎總經理方銀基方總經理歡迎"},{"start":2061.618,"end":2081.632,"text":"第一商營股份有限公司總經理周朝崇周總經理歡迎華南金控董事長陳芬蘭陳董事長歡迎總經理李耀清李總經理歡迎華南商營總經理黃俊志黃總歡迎"},{"start":2085.851,"end":2111.689,"text":"合作金庫金融控股股份有限公司董事長林眼茂林董事長 歡迎總經理蘇佐正蘇總經理 歡迎合庫商營總經理王淑芳王總經理彰化商營董事長胡光華胡董事長 歡迎總經理簡志光簡總經理 歡迎"},{"start":2113.991,"end":2125.624,"text":"台灣中小企業 董事長李嘉祥 李董事長 歡迎總經理 李國中 李總經理 歡迎財政部印刷廠 廠長王國隆 王廠長 歡迎"},{"start":2129.301,"end":2144.544,"text":"行政院主席總署主席長身體不適所以今天由副主席長蔡渾坤蔡副主席長來代理謝謝 歡迎公務預算處專門委員李培元 李專委好 歡迎"},{"start":2145.814,"end":2158.727,"text":"好 以上我們的官員介紹到這裡他們今日的議程安排邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就統一發票經費編列及先傳推廣業務執行情形進行專題報告現在請財政部莊部長進行專題報告"},{"start":2168.188,"end":2185.639,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家早今天陳貴委員會的邀請就統一發票經費編列以及宣傳推廣業務的執行情形進行專題報告請就統一發票給獎及推行的預算編列還有執行情形做檢要報告首先"},{"start":2186.779,"end":2200.114,"text":"統一發票的給獎及推行經費的編列是根據營業稅法第58條的規定是為了防止逃漏控制稅源及促進統一發票的推行那麼本部應訂定統一發票給獎辦法"},{"start":2201.696,"end":2227.185,"text":"那麼他的經費是由全年營業稅收入總額中提出3%作為因應那麼考量預算是同一個年度的稅出與稅率同時編列而且編列的時候並沒有預算年度營業稅收入的時增數所以歷年以來都是按照全年營業稅收入預算案數的3%來編列同一個年度統一發票給獎以及推行預算案數"},{"start":2228.125,"end":2240.996,"text":"那在114年呢我们按全国营业税收入的预算案数6258亿2400万元的3%编列了统一发票给奖以及推行经费预算案数是187亿7472万元"},{"start":2244.946,"end":2262.134,"text":"根据大院三读通过并且经总统公布的预算数则为168亿7770万8千元那么在114年本部开奖的组别以及组数的情形如下在1到4月期每期是开奖1000万元的特别奖200万元的特奖各一组"},{"start":2265.495,"end":2274.402,"text":"那麼頭獎到六獎是各三組另外雲端發票的專屬獎的總組數是256萬餘組那麼5到12月期每一期增加開雲端發票專屬獎500塊的獎有70萬組調整後每一期增加到326萬餘組那麼其餘的獎別是維持不變的我們希望提升民眾索取雲端發票的誘因"},{"start":2293.098,"end":2318.653,"text":"另外我們在結合統一發票的推行辦理租稅教育及宣導活動由於稅制稅政攸關民眾的權益本部透過舉辦記者會實體以及網路的活動以多元管道加強宣導提醒民眾當年度的重大稅制稅政以及各個稅務的報繳稅的訊息那麼有力提升納稅依從度以及深化租稅的教育那麼其他經費我們會用於辦理統一發票的發售資料的調查"},{"start":2323.275,"end":2331.585,"text":"稽查等來健全稅捐激增作業有效防止房住逃漏那麼維護租稅的公平綜合上述114年度統一發表給獎及推行經費執行率是99.95%"},{"start":2337.932,"end":2346.396,"text":"那么114年度我们的效益来看我们的宣导活动参加的人数有1232万余人次那么营业人将近有1万家所募集的发票有490万张那么云端发票呢所开立的有60超过了60亿63亿张使用率达到65%下载使用我们统一发票对讲APP达到746万余人次那运用网络通"},{"start":2365.385,"end":2389.732,"text":"入对领奖的比率也超过了55%对于有效掌握税源并且落实减值减碳的政策是有助益的那么在115年度统一发票给奖以及推行预算案的编列情形我们是按照全国营业税收入预算案数6570亿余元的3%编列了统一发票给奖及推行预算案的"},{"start":2390.665,"end":2399.749,"text":"數是197億元其中統一發票中獎的獎金等經費有188.8億元比114年度增加了26.8億元增加的經費會優先用於增開雲端發票的專屬獎項來增加民眾中獎的機會"},{"start":2409.252,"end":2429.89,"text":"本部将会积极地办理各项统一发票给奖作业根据以多元创新思维规划租税教育局宣导活动深化民众对税制税政的了解来落实推动云端发票的政策目的共创商家民众以及政府的三营以上的报告敬请各委员会议与指教谢谢"},{"start":2431.889,"end":2459.476,"text":"好 謝謝部長主計總署的就請大家參考主計總署提出的書面的說明那我們現在開始巡查先做以下宣告每位初期委員發言時間8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間5分鐘今日上午10時截止發言登記現在我們依登記順序請登記第一位的林德福委員質詢"},{"start":2471.388,"end":2481.495,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席莊部長還有議會各列席的官員還有本會的委員以及媒體記者 女士先生我們是不是請莊部長好 請莊部長委員長"},{"start":2488.647,"end":2513.014,"text":"總部長早我請教因為《經濟日報》有報導有日媒分析說美國2024年整個海關數據中國大陸是美國所有亞洲貿易夥伴中最容易受到232條款的關稅影響的國家可能波及以及商品達到1420億美元日本自資"},{"start":2518.436,"end":2541.834,"text":"那這個暴露在232調查的商品價值約有差不多1070億美元南韓差不多1020億美元南韓G3日本G2脆弱的國家如果全面實施這些關稅可能會威脅價值多達6210億美元的這個亞洲貿易部長那美國關稅政策衝擊"},{"start":2548.718,"end":2570.769,"text":"並沒有消失對整個亞洲國家所產生貿易的衝擊程度不一身為亞洲國家之一的中華民國也不是只有和美國才有貿易往來加上台灣來爭取多年亞太地區貿易協定始終不得其門而入萬一亞洲貿易又受到美國關稅"},{"start":2572.733,"end":2591.909,"text":"這個整個政策的衝擊那我請問台灣要怎麼去面對這些關稅 貿易政策所帶來一些負面的這些衝擊部長你有什麼看法跟委員報告有關美國的關稅政策的措施當然跟許多國家到出口到美國的相關的產品都有說"},{"start":2592.569,"end":2594.27,"text":"因此各國都積極和美國去做商議那同樣的我們台灣也由我們的談判團隊和府院們一起合作跟各機關的合作我們的談判在1月15號已經簽署一個MOU我想大家都很清楚尤其是在232條款"},{"start":2610.519,"end":2614.183,"text":"我國是爭取到了一個最優惠的待遇在赴美設廠期間的產能配額都是0%然後未來也會超出配額的部分最多也就15%我想這個部分對我國的出口尤其我們對美國的出口裡面支通訊的產品事實上佔了76.5%相當高的配額"},{"start":2631.54,"end":2633.761,"text":"所以這個部分對我們的出口是有很大的注意另外我們這一次談判的15%不疊加的部分和許多競爭國家是拉齊平的譬如說像水五金產業的22.6%我們也降到15%和中國是47.6%越南是22.6%像手工具業台灣也是從23.3%降到15%中國是48.3%越南是22.6%"},{"start":2658.687,"end":2677.342,"text":"没有只有跟这些比我们跟竞争的主要对手来说取得一个相对的一个齐平或者是更是为优势的一个位置那其实对我国的经济的发展可以看到这个谈判完了以后各个工会都表达非常的一个肯定那这个部分对我们的产业是有帮助的"},{"start":2677.779,"end":2701.867,"text":"我們希望如此但是因為那些前一陣子差不多將近十個月其實這些傳統產業慘兮兮的甚至有的把員工辭掉有的甚至於說沒有辦法繼續維持下去做很多的變革你現在要搶回原來的客戶其實還是有很多的難處那個部長"},{"start":2704.082,"end":2721.69,"text":"川普表示由於韓國國會還沒有通過去年與美國談定的這些貿易協定所以說他將韓國的汽車 木材 製藥以及其他對等產品的關稅從15%提高到25%那我請問部長川普調高韓國關稅如果陳真你認為對韓國貿易的台灣進出口商"},{"start":2731.954,"end":2734.123,"text":"会有什么样的冲击跟影响"},{"start":2736.038,"end":2763.127,"text":"韓國和我們的貿易之間其實是逆差的逆差是對 是逆差他進口我們的超過了我們對他的出口那韓國在許多產業裡面事實上跟我們事實上是有相關的一個競爭的一些關係包含汽車零組件汽車零組件以及有關的3C產品都是一個競爭關係當然我們的產業必須在取得好的關稅的待遇以後"},{"start":2763.607,"end":2766.27,"text":"我們要強化我們的韌性在國際間的一個競爭優勢上能夠做得更好因為有一些台灣的喜歡買韓國貨的這些消費者當然一定會受到一些影響跟衝擊根據韓國媒體指出國會沒有通過協定主要是韓國在野陣營強烈的杯葛"},{"start":2787.27,"end":2804.54,"text":"認為談判成果根本就是驅辱外交因為韓國被迫承擔了一張高達數千億美元的巨額的投資帳單也嚴重損害整個國家的利益那我請問部長你認為美韓關稅目前的狀況會不會也在台灣發生 會不會"},{"start":2811.424,"end":2813.685,"text":"我想跟委員報告這次我們談判團隊所談的一個結果已經那個OTN也在記者會行政院記者會都有一個詳細說明產業界都覺得是肯定的那未來當然相關的協議都必須送大院來做審議那我們認為這個對於產業界有利的部分我們希望大家都能夠很順利的完成相關的作業"},{"start":2835.973,"end":2862.281,"text":"現況是中華民國簽了一張比韓國更多金額的這個巨額投資給美國令人沒有辦法接受令人諱解的是台灣比韓國的經濟規模小卻要掏出更多的錢來投資美國甚至於還可能整個犧牲這個先進半導體的談判籌碼那我請問部長站在國家整個利益"},{"start":2863.041,"end":2869.053,"text":"利益的本位上你認為在野黨應該同意台美關稅的協議嗎跟委員報告我們對這次談判對美國的投資其實"},{"start":2875.152,"end":2877.614,"text":"不見得是會比韓國高第一個2500億美元是企業的自主投資美國的產業這個部分也是經過徵詢相關產業以後他們基於更接近客戶以及爭取更多的訂單因此對於供應鏈的一個產業去做海外的佈局"},{"start":2893.983,"end":2920.53,"text":"这是自主投资产业自主投资并不是由政府来出资投资另外2500亿美元这个部分是由透过信用保证基金的方式来支持金融机构对于赴美投资产业的最高限额2500亿美元做融资的贷款但事实上并不见得会用到这个部分那所以这个部分并没有所谓的我们有所谓的上旋鲁国绝对是没有的这是自主投资以及"},{"start":2921.77,"end":2943.16,"text":"以及是提供信用担保而且信用担保也不见得都会用到那我们也会分期分年按照运用的情况来做设立这个部分我想委员应该是很了解部长因为大家都担心谈判团队说过很多遍我们的整个经济体跟美国跟韩国跟日本比较我们是真的是差很多但是我们投资的那个额度"},{"start":2945.961,"end":2973.613,"text":"講實在話比人家高太多太多大家就是在擔心對不對你整個產業外移等於裡面就空洞而且你那些傳產講實在話他們是只能夠維持我們很多就是員工 人民去那裡就業能夠維持他們的生計那你要是說這些比較優勢的這些產業全部都移出去講實在話未來我真的不敢想像部長"},{"start":2975.867,"end":3001.344,"text":"對美投資是我們產業的一個延伸跟擴展並不會掏空台灣而且大部分產業還是會核心還是會留在台灣希望如此 但願希望如此部長 先前財政部公布去年稅收統計時受到美國對等關稅的影響中央銀行實施選擇性的信用管制措施影響營業稅和不動產相關的這些稅收出現了短針"},{"start":3006.868,"end":3033.718,"text":"這個515億元比預算預算數 我們短少了505億元並出現近五年來首次的短徵因為以前都是超徵啦這次短徵 部長現在台灣和美國關稅這個談判已經有底定基於國內產業的不確定因素也消失 那我請問你認為今年國內的營業稅的預估是不是一定比"},{"start":3034.798,"end":3053.01,"text":"114年還好 依您的看法營業稅的部分當然會但是出口倉望的話營業稅會退稅所以這個部分那當然國內的一個內需的需求的穩健以及經濟的發展對營業稅都是有注意的那也跟委員報告營業稅其實現在扣除了3%的獎金發辦1.5%的還有1.5%的基增經費全部都納入中央統籌分配稅款撥歸到地方去運用了"},{"start":3062.256,"end":3086.81,"text":"那個按照主計總署對明年經濟成長的預測原預測經濟成長率為3.54%可能上修機率大那請問部長你認為到底是電子產業因為AI需求能高峰所以說持續整個推升國內的經濟成長率還是受到臺美關稅拖累處處以低基期"},{"start":3088.592,"end":3115.674,"text":"這些傳統產業今年可能由谷底來翻轉而有機會帶動整個國內經濟成長率的上修您的看法呢主計總處原預估今年115年的經濟成長率是3.5%但是我看不管有相關的一些智庫以及國外的經濟國外的一些預測機構對台灣的經濟成長事實上是都認為可以上修的好 我希望這個"},{"start":3119.007,"end":3138.614,"text":"這個我們希望老百姓要的就是希望能夠經濟提升那不是美國講任何我們全部都配合甚至於還加碼因為你包括你看阿拉斯加那個整個也人家日本韓國都沒有簽憑什麼我們去跟人家簽對不對400多億的美金"},{"start":3139.714,"end":3159.854,"text":"對不對那這裡這個又要這個國防又要增加國防預算一兆兩千五百億又要阿拉斯加的簽然後這裡那裡講實在話一個整個國家大政最重就是要安定最重要要安定然後怎麼讓經濟提升老百姓要的是安居樂業"},{"start":3161.415,"end":3176.279,"text":"我們談判團隊都是秉持的維護國家的利益 產業的利益還有國民的健康都是朝這樣的一個目標而且達成了我們四大目標希望如此啦 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝林德福委員部長請回接下來請吳秉瑞委員質詢主席麻煩請財政部莊部長好 請莊部長"},{"start":3192.645,"end":3204.745,"text":"委員長部長我們跟美國的這個關稅談判的那個投資金額啊就是你剛剛提到的自主企業自主投資金額其實是2500億嘛"},{"start":3207.554,"end":3223.49,"text":"然後另外的2500億是將來如果有我們的企業要到美國去設廠投資的時候他的融資的信用保證的這些的這個額度所以真正的投資額度其實是2500億請問有沒有實現"},{"start":3227.837,"end":3238.56,"text":"這個部分其實我們的產業赴美投資其實這是多年以來都有這樣的一個情況而且是基於他自己產業的方式我目前看到是沒有對啊所以這2500億是等於沒有條件光台積電1650億已經宣布了投資也包括在這裡面對不對"},{"start":3253.391,"end":3256.533,"text":"是的 有包含的那2500億扣掉台積電一家1650億 這是算數嘛 剩下850億還沒扣掉偽創 沒有扣掉鴻海沒有扣掉聯發科 沒有扣掉環球軍這些都已經在美國設廠而且準備要增加投資的額度"},{"start":3275.99,"end":3281.954,"text":"我跟你說 我個人是這樣想如果美國這2500億不是希望你投資的金額的地板而是給你天花板的話這會跟當年的紡織配額一樣要去還要跟他買還要跟他買價格 還要買配額"},{"start":3293.991,"end":3310.7,"text":"2500億不夠用啦 因為也沒有實現啊也沒有跟你講一年 兩年 三年 五年 十年他都沒跟你講嘛所以美國是一個沒有條件啦坦白講這就是一個假裝條件就我們讀法律的人這個叫做假裝條件 你知道嗎假裝條件說你今年的稅收是三兆 假設是這樣"},{"start":3320.708,"end":3327.235,"text":"我現在先假設一個前提然後我現在給你開一個條件你今年費給我超過兩兆不可喔不然要怎麼樣怎麼樣要給你什麼樣的後果這個在法律上這個叫假裝條件因為這已經成價了嘛事實上就沒有要求你嘛所以2500億投資既沒有年限"},{"start":3342.242,"end":3364.156,"text":"沒有跟你講幾年要投資啊再加上把現在已經去美國投資的金額都計算在這2500億裡面所以是沒有條件啦第二個我今天這麼多的航空的董事長在這邊喔如果有我們國內這些現在全世界一流的這些企業要去美國投資啊借錢喔沒有信用擔保他們都借啦台積電要跟你借錢你不借嗎"},{"start":3372.66,"end":3390.452,"text":"鴻海跟你借錢你不借嗎環球金跟你借錢你不借嗎所以這個所謂2500億的去美國投資的信用擔保喔真的不用擔心啦很多廠商他自己發行公司在比你跟銀行借錢要快啦對不對台積電要投資1650億美金你聽說他跟國內哪一家銀行借錢啊就沒有嘛他錢滿手都是錢他要跟你借錢"},{"start":3403.502,"end":3428.715,"text":"所以其實美國跟我們這個談判的這兩個條件在我來看都是假裝條件根本事實上請問我們台灣哪一樣做不到台灣政府現在需要為了這個談判然後趕快去逼企業廠商說你趕快給我去投資沒有 大家都是高興的因為台積電要去設廠所以他的台積電的供應廠商希望跟著去設廠究竟能夠服務台積電"},{"start":3431.738,"end":3454.927,"text":"像一些設備廠商 無塵室的漢堂什麼這些都是上市公司他們現在都急得要趕快去不用政府去邀請說因為我們跟美國談判了什麼條件條 投資2500億所以你們這些在國內的廠商你趕快給我去美國投資不用政府要求 人家做生意急得不得了在我來看是這樣不知道你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":3456.38,"end":3461.945,"text":"委員說得很適合其實赴美投資的產業它本身有它自己的需求譬如說對服務客戶更接近然後或者有潛在的一個訂單而且這些大廠商其實它本身的自有資金如果充沛的話它也不建議要跟銀行貸款或者以其他的方式來做融資包含發行公司債這些部分"},{"start":3477.159,"end":3496.534,"text":"或者他足夠有的擔保他也不需要再另外送所謂的信用擔保所以這個部分所謂信用擔保的機制是一個建立但是並不是一下子也要到位或什麼事實上按照需要的額度再來做一些調整以上 對所以是找尽任何的理由挑任何的毛病希望能夠阻擋這一個談判嘛"},{"start":3499.041,"end":3509.43,"text":"那問題是這個很嚴重啊如果在立法院不通過這關稅等於就沒有談了 回到原來原來是多少原來是20%然後還有疊加對不對20%加疊加 對那不得了 那3、40%的關稅他現在跟你講說15%談得不好我不要給你過 讓你回到40幾%的關稅天下有這樣的邏輯嗎這個邏輯會通嗎"},{"start":3526.656,"end":3536.642,"text":"連15%不疊加其實產業界都覺得很肯定然後也會去爭取相關的訂單假設我們台灣的國會你們送進來之後也跟韓國一樣搞了半年不給你過的話有可能美國說你們就沒有誠意這個沒有條件的這個關稅要給你減量到這個地步你也不要那我們做生意是跟你的對手比"},{"start":3553.43,"end":3572.255,"text":"今天美國市場我們台灣一年 巨年一年的跟人家出超1500億美金你賺了人家1500億美金如果以國際貿易的講究平衡化 換位思考美國不用跟你談什麼東西你就給我出超這麼多一套國際貿易平衡的理念我就可以對你出手"},{"start":3573.8,"end":3593.533,"text":"美國是因為把台灣當作是他的現在的準盟友然後需要台灣幫他重建製造業所以用了非常容易的條件跟比其他國家更優惠的條件要讓台灣台灣得到位有的地位什麼時候美國的財政部長公開講台灣這個國家還請你到這個財政部裡面去跟他簽約"},{"start":3602.418,"end":3611.661,"text":"以前只能夠躲在咖啡廳或是在這個文化辦事處或是在那個什麼在台協會這樣子的非官方機構裡面弄嘛對不對這一次完全承認你是一個國家沒有等於沒有條件現在還意見一大堆之前一直罵說不趕快去談讓這些傳統產業很難生存"},{"start":3632.383,"end":3658.598,"text":"台灣的生意人沒有這麼差啦台灣生意人非常拼啦我們過去被中國共產黨打壓所以台灣都不能參加國際的貿易組織包括RCEP 包括CPTDP都被中國阻攔跟其他國家簽FTA也很困難所以台灣過去其實一直比人家關稅就高可是台灣的生意人非常了不起提著一個皮箱全世界做生意"},{"start":3659.907,"end":3664.572,"text":"還能夠把台灣的經濟去撐起來剛剛股市台積電破1800啦掏空台灣台積電1800然後股市破將近三萬三千點啦三萬兩千七百點啦天天節節高一直漲經濟過熱今天發表那個"},{"start":3682.91,"end":3711.37,"text":"燈號已經變成紅燈了都已經過熱了還在講說台灣的經濟很糟糕民不聊生我就不知道為什麼大家認知可以差距這麼大他的資訊從哪裡來的不要光是看那些中國共產黨給你的資訊跟媒體啦不然的話看到的都是害死自己當初台大教授說台積電會跌破五千塊五百塊現在一千八啦當初聽他話放空的人現在應該跑路啦"},{"start":3714.136,"end":3741.875,"text":"所以真的是睜開眼睛看看這個世界不要活在自己的象牙塔裡面講偷工台灣就最好笑了台積電有哪一家工廠關起來然後移到美國去啊沒有耶 還在增加投資耶還要再增加今年又宣布5個廠再加上新建做的現在還要再增加18個廠耶台灣的電力供應 土地供應 水力供應都很吃緊大家拼命在想辦法要解決耶"},{"start":3743.479,"end":3770.478,"text":"然後這樣子的一直增加投資在台灣一直增加台灣的製造量然後說要掏空台灣到美國去如果今天把工廠關起來然後移到美國設廠台灣的工人都淺散像以前馬英九時代大膽吸盡這個樣子去中國那才叫做掏空台灣對不對台灣的製造增加台灣的工廠增加台灣的用人一直在增加"},{"start":3772.796,"end":3793.514,"text":"然後因為他的需要他的業務需要要在美國增加供給所以他在美國做增加廠這樣叫掏空台灣那如果這樣子可以通的話一間大餐廳開在台北市的他覺得說台中的客人他也要服務去台中開了一家分店台北市這一家繼續營業可不可以叫做掏空台北啊"},{"start":3794.793,"end":3819.547,"text":"江是不是掏空台北我們叫他的擴電擴電的是啊明明企業就在擴展那你在說掏空台灣這邏輯到底是什麼一回事啊所以我覺得我們的政務官要大膽的用力的辯護聽到這些邪魔歪教的歪論相信他話的人持大虧啦相信台灣我們一直穩健大步在前進當中好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":3823.07,"end":3827.732,"text":"好 謝謝吳秉瑞委員部長請回 接下來請賴思寶委員質詢謝謝主席及各位先進有請財政部的莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":3849.045,"end":3852.968,"text":"委員長部長長我想針對今天的題目這個我有算過統一發票這個我們已經修法了一定要稅收的3%要提撥統一發票給獎"},{"start":3866.698,"end":3871.863,"text":"那麼在過去幾年 3年內我們看到從114年吧110年到113年總共是超徵的2885億乘以3%等於86.6億之多那麼如果講一個平均是200塊錢的話就少掉4330萬個"},{"start":3893.322,"end":3914.595,"text":"給獎的機會我們4330萬個中獎的機會除以2300萬人口的話每一個人就少掉1.88次啦等於一個人台灣一個人不管他年紀100歲一直到剛出生的平均一個人少了兩次的中獎機會啊這個部長啊"},{"start":3916.576,"end":3936.688,"text":"你不能這個我們要投資美國送錢給美國這麼大方這個獎的部分給老百姓的小確幸這樣子想辦法能扣就扣你們是針對預算數算算那我為什麼不針對時增數呢你告訴我原因到底在哪裡"},{"start":3937.587,"end":3947.297,"text":"跟委員報告我們產業投資美國不是送錢給美國我想這個第一個要澄清那第二個部分對於統一發票的給獎我們營業稅法我想在報告裡面說的很清楚以全年收入的3%來編列但是我們在編的時候因為並沒有當年度的時增數比如說以114年來說我在編的時候我按照預算案數"},{"start":3961.67,"end":3963.972,"text":"來編列那如果說當年度的實徵數超過預算數的話那個部分也是歸屬到國庫裡面去而且有40%依照原來的財化法是40%是撥到地方的中央統籌分配稅款並不是全部進國庫那如果115年的話全部都到了地方政府去了要不要"},{"start":3983.746,"end":3999.094,"text":"那怎麼補因為第一個它是那一年114年消費的發票那我們就開講了那再補的話是對115年的發票它並不是同一個年度另外就是預算上的編列所以我就跟你講說要差兩個年度沒錯…以後如果有超增稅收"},{"start":4007.666,"end":4021.237,"text":"應該在下下年度補列入預算金額可以嗎可以嗎 我就問你可以嗎跟委員報告現在營業稅都進到了除了3%跟1.5%都到了地方政府那這個會減少地方政府的中央統籌分配稅款"},{"start":4022.959,"end":4037.473,"text":"這會減少如果我們地方政府不會有意見啦因為這給老百姓的小缺席地方政府是不是沒有意見我們其實另外在預算法是不是可以做這樣的編列可能還要經過預算法主管機關再來重新看看為什麼不能夠編列你們編列那個獎金用預算跟實施跟差這麼多"},{"start":4042.059,"end":4058.026,"text":"對不對 我跟你講啦齁這個 姑你們 你們一樣你不然就給地方政府不然就給老百姓我相信我相信地方政府一定money and happy說這筆錢有機會給老百姓因為出錢沒有多少錢啊"},{"start":4059.146,"end":4076.118,"text":"因為八十六一四年度一個年度二十億二十四個縣市二十二個縣市一個縣市多少一億啊有什麼了不起114年是目前來說全國短徵288億那有短徵的話是不是要不要忘了我們的法律規定喔是營業稅3%提獎金提完獎金以後才給地方政府的你們犯規啊"},{"start":4088.367,"end":4088.567,"text":"法律規定就是先給"},{"start":4095.177,"end":4109.082,"text":"獎金分完以後才給地方政府你不要這個歐陵水痘啊不是不是我也沒有錯在編預算的時候是這樣但是如果到下兩個年度要再抽出來抽出來嘛所以我就跟你講下下年度嘛我就跟你講下下年度啊我都寫的沒有錯啊兩年以後啊那就會減少了原來的要配給地方政府的錢因為還要從裡面抽一一跑去要給人家啊對不對副主計長有意見嗎"},{"start":4128.214,"end":4145.424,"text":"請那個蔡副好不好 這個可以編在下下年度嗎來 關於總長一下報告賴委員那因為這個是財政部主管的我們尊重財政部的你說我主席叫你 你叫我擦了財政部我給他記過來是啦 那按照那個"},{"start":4147.987,"end":4154.432,"text":"那個第58條規定喔58條規定很清楚是先給獎金以後再給地方政府嘛先後失序你不要不要把這個這個就推給地方政府啊先製造地方政府跟這個人民的矛盾啊總部長不好喔這樣不厚道喔委員您說在以後兩個年度要再加鞭喔那這個就是扣到原來的部分因為你原來當年度要3%再加上以前年度超過的數字在這個"},{"start":4176.327,"end":4191.313,"text":"這個年以後的兩年度再來扣出來的話我不是不同意而是依照現行的運作的話多年來都是按照預算案數在編不管是少編也是一樣的如果短收也是一樣的我要讓這個案子通過"},{"start":4192.433,"end":4201.7,"text":"老百姓比這個縣市首長重要啦地方政府平均20億平均20幾個縣市平均一個縣市少1億可是這麼多的我們的普羅大眾這個幾千萬人的好 來 另外一年一夜稅是短徵288元對 短徵就沒有了嘛短徵就沒有這個問題我說超徵就有這個問題啊對不對 超徵你就兩年度以後補編嘛有這麼難嗎"},{"start":4221.214,"end":4238.543,"text":"對不對 這個錢要扣來 我們談到 哇這個大家關心什麼台美關稅賴總統也說趕快省 笑死人八字只有一撇只有說我們出口去美國的啊美國來台灣的咧 農產品是不是零是不是零 請問是不是零"},{"start":4239.703,"end":4246.309,"text":"有關關稅的這個部分目前來說台美雙方還在檢視相關的文件這個都還在檢視文件等到簽署以後團隊會跟社會大眾報告案子送來立法院了嗎"},{"start":4261.85,"end":4270.092,"text":"那目前來說雙方在檢視相關的文件當中奇怪你都沒有送來只要審出口進口都還沒有搞定這樣就一直說你們要審了你們怎麼可以不審我暗示都沒有來為什麼叫我們審呢"},{"start":4282.056,"end":4285.678,"text":"對不對 不能這樣子隨便罵什麼時候談完你也不知道因為這是什麼經貿辦對不對什麼時候送來立法院你也不知道也沒有送來立法院簽署以後應該會很快的送進大院選舉我們也希望盡快 對不對但是呢我是呼籲賴總統要做功課啦賴總統幕僚要幫幫他啊賴總統不去 總統沒關係他叫沒有神"},{"start":4311.018,"end":4336.468,"text":"這個我就要跟你講這個只要送來立法院絕對很快的審這個關係到每一個這個沒有其他沒有second thought沒有第二個想法絕對審而且認真審很快審都不用擔心來 我們再請教那個八大關股房公寓董事長一起來好嗎好 請各位董事長來一起來 部長你在哪裡"},{"start":4342.842,"end":4361.434,"text":"上一次來部長好我們有說四大飯工股投信要合併那時候阮次主持的我記得第一金和庫造風華南財政部開會是由第一金來主導"},{"start":4363.428,"end":4377.462,"text":"結果後來華南列祖啊華南的鄰家大股東反對結果你們整個案子停擺了你們就停擺了聽我講完我講完再講按照投信的績效第一金"},{"start":4384.056,"end":4394.121,"text":"排進去前100名的六檔何苦三檔 招風一檔華南的零Z6 說我最大聲他反對了 華南反對了你不知道要不要講一下話"},{"start":4401.565,"end":4420.913,"text":"第一個我們這個會朝向這個投信來是合一來合併但就我所知他們都按照相關的進度在推進當中那也沒有華南因為怎麼樣而停擺目前都按期程在進行當中我就收到人家給我簡體訊說華南因為林家大股東他們負董市場不服董市場所以你們差一點把董市場換掉"},{"start":4427.976,"end":4433.802,"text":"有沒有這回事把誰換掉把董事長換掉沒有 董事長還在反正董事長還在陳董事長他的民股最大的股東是您家"},{"start":4440.136,"end":4461.55,"text":"你家是最大股東喔這個四合一目前按照期程在推進當中所以還是第一金在主導因為你遠遠看第一金的規模是最大的還是在主導好 最後一個問題這個上一次來了說我們的2500億美金的投資美國的信保基金"},{"start":4464.253,"end":4486.067,"text":"我們的國發會說要第一年今年就要籌100億美金請問八大行庫是不是平均分攤有關這個信保基金的一個成立以及出資的部分目前是由國發會在規劃當中除了國發基金還有公股行庫之外也會邀請民營行庫一起來加入"},{"start":4486.889,"end":4496.878,"text":"不是 那你的我們的翻工股還要付多少錢那至於未來怎麼樣的一個出資的額度會另外做規劃我請教一個龍頭那個趙鳳京的董事長"},{"start":4500.646,"end":4528.482,"text":"你有沒有接到國安會跟你諮詢說要你這個出資多少當作這個保證基金包委員現在還沒有這個出資的規劃都沒有出資規劃對 現在還沒有照細部的規劃我讓大家知道分年分期是可以的分年分期而且是多有銀行業我讓大家知道國安會的副主委來這裡前幾天是說年底就要籌100億美金他講得這麼清楚而且主要就是八大飯工股行庫"},{"start":4530.411,"end":4545.095,"text":"應該不是只有八大我們可以先出資但是我們不會唯一出資應該是所有民營銀行也要進來因為這個整個產業的融資是所有產業所有銀行業的事情不是只有八大關股在做這個融資最後我想講一個其實我很不願意講這個台灣的股市很好大家高興 沒有人不高興的但是台灣有嚴重的荷蘭病"},{"start":4556.533,"end":4574.8,"text":"股市你現在看多少支股票三分之一以上甚至一半以上都跌了都沒有漲啊指數漲都賺了指數賠了股價到底荷蘭幣晶片半導體產業好很讚的傳統產業慘兮兮啊你去看其他股票"},{"start":4576.84,"end":4600.566,"text":"這個儘管會主委還在想辦法怎麼樣平衡一下所以大家都了解然後沒有人唱衰台灣但是我們希望各個產業都受到照顧而不是只有晶片以及半導體發展這就是荷蘭病這是很不好的現象包委員實際上是政府各個部會都有提供相關的這些輔導措施針對中小企業以及其他可能的一些衰退產業好 謝謝賴司保委員"},{"start":4605.646,"end":4609.87,"text":"好 大家請回接下來請郭國文委員質詢謝謝主席 有請莊部長好 請莊部長委員好"},{"start":4628.826,"end":4656.098,"text":"部長 本席想教教您一下去年我們現在八大工庫行庫當中總共賺了多少錢這個總金額我先不清楚是不是待會兒先查一下沒關係 我們請八大行庫的工庫銀行董事長上來一下請各位董事長上台我依依詢問我先問一下台銀的部分林董事長 你們去年賺了多少錢"},{"start":4657.025,"end":4672.431,"text":"委員好我們去年是創新高327億創新高然後那個土銀賺了多少錢公委員報告我們去年是賺的稅錢是200億3400萬200多少200億3400萬211億喔那有沒有創新高啊有有創新高好那個兆豐銀行多少"},{"start":4685.97,"end":4688.07,"text":"395億有沒有創新高應該還好差不多好那第一銀行邱董事長多少去年也是創新高創新高金控加起來是稅前是330幾億330幾億330好接下來是那個華南陳董事長"},{"start":4716.348,"end":4739.053,"text":"我們去年也是創新高創新高稅前是超過300億稅前超過300億好合作金庫林董各位報告我們去年213億也是創新高也是創新高那彰化銀行胡董包委我們彰化銀行去年創新高稅前211億2101111好來中小企業銀行李董"},{"start":4746.482,"end":4764.884,"text":"報告委員 我們去年也是獲利創新高稅前是152.5億好像只有兆豐沒有創新高而已其他都是創新高來 一個一個來問創新高 那我請問一下林董既然創新高 股票也上升對不對我問一下員工年終獎金要給幾個月"},{"start":4766.728,"end":4794.337,"text":"我們國營事業就受到這個國營事業管理法的規範不管我創多高都是4.44.4那土銀也不用問了就4.4好 趙鋒趙鋒要給幾個月報告委員目前規劃大概是8個月因為營運跟金融差不多8個月8個月8個月平均都8個月沒有最高8個月平均平均平均8個月好然後那個接下來邱董事長 易營幾個月"},{"start":4795.837,"end":4803.059,"text":"報告委員目前我們也是規劃在八個月上下也是八個月上下好接下來華南銀行幾個月詳細的數字還沒有出來不過我們會比應該會比去年高一點過年了還沒出來大概多少比照八個月可以嗎七個多月七個多月 七個多月幕僚給說七個多月那合庫呢"},{"start":4824.082,"end":4831.687,"text":"我們目前規劃是應該會超過七個月也超過七個月 你是有說好嗎 差不多張華英好我們接近八個月八個月 也接近八個月我請問一下 中小企業運行幾個月中小企業運行來"},{"start":4847.062,"end":4868.692,"text":"包委員依照我們的講求辦法的話應該會超過8個月要超過8個月請各位董事長請回我就剩下我問部長部長全部都創新高幾乎只有趙豐金可能還不太確定有沒有有沒有創新高"},{"start":4871.187,"end":4884.424,"text":"也創新高也創新高 對金控也創新高八大公股都是創新高都創新高那我問一下這年終獎金有沒有創新高 部長"},{"start":4886.365,"end":4913.968,"text":"我想他們會依照績效來發給你應該要求他們因為不是給公司就給股東就給員工股東就已經股票帳面價值已經有提升了應該你是不是銀行貨力創新高是不是員工的這個年終獎金也應該要創新高這比較符合比例原則不是嗎是啊 支持委員的說法對 所以說如果沒有創新高的你就好好要求他們一下可不可以"},{"start":4915.268,"end":4935.649,"text":"我不敢要求他们我只能要求你他们不需要要求他们自动就会鼓励员工然后会给好的一个奖金我给你一个数字你会后跟我讲如果年终奖金没有创新高你一个列举给我好不好没有创新高一个月可以吗我不知道委员您是说没有创新高要怎么样营业额有创新高"},{"start":4936.83,"end":4956.04,"text":"年终奖金也要创新高年终奖金如果跟着这个获利没有创新高的话就应该被检讨对不对就是没有善待员工好 是来 接下来那个麻烦那个台湾银行上来一下台湾银行那个林董林董好"},{"start":4957.56,"end":4972.197,"text":"林董 那黃金的RWA台銀去年的部分的專案已經創辦 已經成功在創新園區辦得不錯它已經達到四個效果了不論是自動化也好或者是同步交割也好縮短這個結算也好降低風險也好"},{"start":4973.098,"end":4986.386,"text":"那我問一下因為這個RWA的部分應用面的部分可以到一個現實的資產的部分還有包括台幣跟資產跟日幣你這個部分你們會要求去申請這個事辦嗎"},{"start":4988.568,"end":5005.915,"text":"会的 跟委员报告大概什么时候这个我们跟财经公司还有其他八家不管是公股的或者是其他的纯民营的金融同业我们本来就组建了一个平台什么时候 什么时候试办我们去年就已经做成这个实验的成功实验是实验"},{"start":5006.135,"end":5031.142,"text":"事半是事半事半就是今年开始我们会因为金管会也有指示说希望我们可以成立一个对 你们都实验成功了你们还在拖这没有意思吗你们是一个指标你们去年成功今年就应该事半对 今年会去申请那这个事半的重要性你如果扩大到其他的法币的话的用意是什么呢如果将来金管会它这个专法如果通过的话虚拟货币专法通过你就马上可以接轨了"},{"start":5031.562,"end":5047.848,"text":"沒錯 所以我請因為檯面師有一個示範性的作用我希望把這個部分做一個關鍵的一個引導麻煩你給我一個答覆一個月內給我一個答覆你們進度預計是什麼樣的方式接下來我們請部長謝謝委員"},{"start":5049.144,"end":5071.938,"text":"部長 因為最近高齡化的社會大家對退休的經濟安全保障都非常的在意相對勞工的部分相對是比較少但是以部分的話勞工目前的話不管是企業這一個相對提撥6%或勞工自體6%基本上已經經過20年了已經有開始許多多人想要倡議把它提高"},{"start":5073.118,"end":5090.525,"text":"除了勞動部問題之外其實最關鍵的其實是在財政部為什麼因為這裡頭有稅差損的問題一個如果說假設以6%提高到8%的話以個人的部分的話大概可以增加到173億企業的部分大概增加到800"},{"start":5092.906,"end":5106.352,"text":"33億那以整個有效稅率來換算的話以企業大概是17%的話他的這個稅損大概是150億那勞工的朋友的話大概有效稅率大概平均大概應該是大概3%左右但我已算5"},{"start":5107.412,"end":5128.835,"text":"大概增加稅損大概增加8億這種情況底下勞動部是不是應該去評估一下這樣的稅損是不是勞動部可以承受得了然後我們可以增加讓勞工有更多一個經濟安全保障然後減少國家的這個稅收的情況底下這可以讓整個勞工的福利可以提升有沒有可能 部長請說"},{"start":5129.974,"end":5154.523,"text":"我想委员这个部分我们会后是不是再跟劳动部再来做一个讨论以及他有没有要做一些提高到6%提高到8%以及未来对税收的相关的影响我们会跟劳动部再做进一步的了解你可以先跟本席讨论因为劳动部还没有提案本席有提案本席现在就就教于您因为本席的提案当中除了劳动部的因素之外就是财政部"},{"start":5155.363,"end":5178.843,"text":"财政部的部分有两个面向一个是自提的部分一个是企业提拨的部分那显然企业提拨的税差损是大概150亿但是劳工的部分的税差损不过是8亿也就是说自提的部分其实可以先行事办然后企业的部分主力相对比较大然后后行事办你们可以提供出来接应你可以分阶段性的处理有没有可能"},{"start":5181.484,"end":5207.66,"text":"我想这个部分我们会后再来你会后的部分我给你一个月的时间你评估一下好不好然后依照你这个评估的内容当中接下来我们跟劳动部讨论的时候会有所依据你们是提早准备最后一个问题我请教于您大家都非常关心因为我们想说在台美官报谈判的时候朝向FTA我们都一提到说我们要向美方争取先向免税的一个项目"},{"start":5208.18,"end":5215.679,"text":"那我問你啊我們跟人家爭取千項免稅那我問部長美方現在要求我們要爭取多少免稅"},{"start":5217.386,"end":5240.001,"text":"几项 我问几项而已这个部分因为涉及到那个他们相互还在签相关的协议的文本内容的项目既然是涉及我们跟他要求签一千项可以讲要求的可以讲我们被要求的不能讲签署以后会向社会大众报告你从昨天到现在都回答这句话都没有边跟为什么我们跟他要求说有一千项我们被要求几项不能讲"},{"start":5240.862,"end":5255.228,"text":"你站在财政部长你要去面对这个问题我们当然知道是对不对我们会面对然后从汽车关税的部分大概多少我们至少要去面对这个问题我根本本性也不是问你说税率要降到多少都不是好 那我问一个比较具体一个问题好了另外一个"},{"start":5255.948,"end":5274.458,"text":"这个台美之间这个重复科税的问题就避免重复科税的这个减免法案已经在这个众议院参过了接下来就经过这个参议院参议院通过以后就可以完成这个效力了对不对就算财政部的一个政绩对不对"},{"start":5276.539,"end":5303.837,"text":"参议院通过后那要因为他是修国内法第一阶段他修国内法然后经过川普总统签署以后我们双方就是我们那你有没有算出两边的税差损多少这个双方这个部分会要签个国际文书那至于税差的部分因为其实这双方都相互投资都可以相互适用那事实上税差不是主要的一个议题因为事实上相互投资是会促进双向的贸易以及经济的成长我觉得这个部分是更重要的"},{"start":5304.758,"end":5323.487,"text":"那一定会有避免重复科税的部分避免重复科税对避免重复科税还是会有数字上的问题会有数字上的数字上问题就牵扯到台商或美商之间他们减少税损的问题是 减少的税损当然是有数字的问题是有数字 对我们那只有初估而已初估 好 可以可以吧 好 谢谢谢谢好 谢谢郭国文委员接下来请罗明财委员咨询"},{"start":5337.506,"end":5344.048,"text":"主席各位出列習慣的主席可否請莊部長好請莊部長莊部長你好委員長請問一下因為這個統一發票對所有的民眾來講特別是一個小確幸一年大概印了多少張的發票我們再算一下以前"},{"start":5367.54,"end":5392.295,"text":"因為我們鼓勵用雲端發票所以目前來說紙本的發票是越來越少了而且雲端發票使用率也越來越高當初就是希望說雲端那我們做一個比較就是說大概10年前開始推大概10年左右應該超過10年了超過10年那10年前before跟after現在情況大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":5394.161,"end":5397.226,"text":"请署长来说明一下相关的数字请署长因为"},{"start":5399.748,"end":5420.859,"text":"過去大家為了收集這個發票弄得整個辦公桌到處都是要對也很難對因為對了十幾年眼睛都變老花了花開 灰灰的直接就電子雲端對 中獎的就中獎那不是很快嗎是… 署長請問一下數據怎麼樣"},{"start":5424.881,"end":5448.438,"text":"我們現在數據就是說我們紙本發票這幾年因為雲端發票史上越來越高所以我們紙本發票印製的張數是有才是印刷廠印製的那張數是減少以前大概好像十幾億張有沒有那現在 以前不是十幾億一年大概九億張左右差不多啦 就是九億張那現在大概剩下幾張"},{"start":5451.383,"end":5471.527,"text":"比較去年比較低了吧這裡精確的數據我要再確認一下但是如果從比例上來看的話大概占十幾%占全部所有花票的十幾%左右換言之就是整個電子的部分成長了大概快八九十個%吧是不是這麼說"},{"start":5476.533,"end":5497.16,"text":"大概本來有7億多張的發票現在都變成雲端的發票了應該可以這麼說我跟委員報告現在紙本在我們全部發票的比例只剩下13%差不多嘛所以我剛剛講的數字87% 87%都是這個是很好的情況讓大家很方便統一發票的主數小確訊會不會減少聽說"},{"start":5501.687,"end":5507.358,"text":"你們是怎麼樣把這個中獎的組數降低了"},{"start":5508.857,"end":5536.445,"text":"報告委員我們這幾年發票的經費我們編列統一發票給獎跟推行經費是不斷的增加只有在114年度因為三檢的關係我們變稍微少了一點不然的話每年都成長所以我們開獎的組數是越來越多尤其我們這幾年是著重在開雲端發票的就是一般500元獎那個對大家真的是小確幸現在中對多獎一張發票可以中多少錢"},{"start":5537.594,"end":5562.87,"text":"就是最多就是一千萬一千萬我的天啊 我從來沒中過那從今天開始我每次一定要記得索取發票是不是記得用下載我們的APP多宣導一下我們要讓這個一千萬一年只有一千萬一次嗎"},{"start":5563.45,"end":5592.509,"text":"沒有六期 六期而且每一期開出來大概14張14到15張左右14 15張 哇好 那這個太好的消息了顯然我們很多人還沒有中過獎但是沒關係我覺得財政部這邊其實有很多好消息大家注意聽就可以入寶山但是不要空手而回比如說普發現金一萬塊"},{"start":5593.892,"end":5598.172,"text":"部長 現在去領一萬塊的人比率大概有多少"},{"start":5598.972,"end":5601.573,"text":"跟委員報告已經領取的有2228萬達到預估領取人數的94.55%快94.5了在這裡跟大家報告就是說領取的截止日是4月30所以還沒有領取的民眾儘快領取好 趕快也報告一下4月1號到4月30出生的新生兒我們要顧慮就是媽媽可能要坐月子或都在忙所以"},{"start":5625.721,"end":5635.55,"text":"對於4月1號到4月30出生的新生兒可以到5月22號之前到郵局去領取我們希望就還沒有領取的可以再按照這個時間內去領取好 我覺得這一次的普發現金做得不錯大家都領到了而且都很平順希望這個寶貴的經驗"},{"start":5646.721,"end":5655.974,"text":"在下一次或者是明年後年哪一年稅收超征的時候本席現在已經在修法在連署當中"},{"start":5656.84,"end":5680.359,"text":"就是以後只要稅收一超增超增過每一個門檻 某個門檻的時候我們就直接劃拨到所有全民的帳戶只要稅收一超增我想這個小確幸是很必須要的我們也感謝財政部其實財政部都是一閃一閃亮晶晶"},{"start":5681.54,"end":5692.963,"text":"只要有認真聽的大概都可以覺得很開心所以今年因為馬年也快到了希望新年我們今天就也不要去罵人我們都多一點鼓勵 和氣融融希望兵五年馬年大家就是馬上幸福 馬上發財接著我就講一些發財的事情"},{"start":5709.809,"end":5730.022,"text":"請台銀 我問一下部長你們自己推動的以前有一個存摺叫做黃金存摺本席存在這個地方我就講說你們自己要發行黃金存摺你們鼓勵員工 鼓勵大家通通去開戶"},{"start":5731.683,"end":5743.133,"text":"定期定額不斷的去儲蓄部長你自己有沒有去開一個黃金存摺那時候的黃金沒有記錯的話每盎司應該是1270塊的美金部長你有買嗎"},{"start":5750.82,"end":5753.004,"text":"我只有公教存款一個月一萬塊哇 那就差聽一點老師在講 你都沒認真聽來 我請台銀 台銀"},{"start":5763.792,"end":5790.866,"text":"這個業務大概總經理比較熟所以我們請施瑪麗施總經理好 請施總經理台銀有瑪麗讓我們的黃金存摺越來越美麗請施瑪麗總經理施總 現在開黃金存摺我們也都知道台灣有一個黃金王子叫做楊天立一起上來"},{"start":5792.727,"end":5814.757,"text":"從那個時候年輕王子現在變成已經快當國王了歲月重重快20幾年了他從以前就不斷的提醒因為他是我學長以前我們都當他貴賓他來介紹一下黃金的走向果然他講得非常準就從每盎司1270塊一路飆升請問"},{"start":5819.458,"end":5844.594,"text":"現在開黃金存摺的這個戶數有多少那整體來說的話這些投資黃金存摺的他們大概賺了多少錢現在一樣是多少各位請那個美麗的施瑪莉要讓黃金越來越美麗的施總經理說謝謝委員我先回答第一個問題大概現在目前整個台灣的黃金存摺的開戶超過500萬戶"},{"start":5847.056,"end":5850.038,"text":"哇 500萬戶那如果是台灣銀行的話是超過75萬戶那我自己是102年以前在那個買黃金存摺那時候就是1270塊但是"},{"start":5864.83,"end":5885.394,"text":"有沒有買但是有 我有買而且是定期定額一個月大概一萬塊買你看但是這個中間有起起落落後來也有賺在一千六百多塊的時候賣掉你太早了啦所以今天很扼腕今天的價格已經台穎的賣出的話已經超過五千兩百元對"},{"start":5892.793,"end":5914.449,"text":"你看看 所以我們的黃金國王 王子變國王可不可以請教一下楊天立 楊總經理是不是 楊處長現在黃金的走向 為什麼它就是起起伏伏有人說它還會持續往上漲 你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":5915.396,"end":5941.754,"text":"是 報告委員基本上目前當然全世界對於金價都非常的看好那最主要的原因還是在於避險那以貴金屬來講的話黃金白銀它在過去因為被當作貨幣使用過所以當大家對於這個市場的風險意識升高的時候那會有一些資金尋求一個避風港所以會來到黃金跟白銀這一類的貴金屬那所以未來的話"},{"start":5943.346,"end":5963.887,"text":"黃金的走向還是會持續平穩向上是 報告委員基本上以目前來說的話趨勢上大家都是看會繼續往上但因為短期上漲的幅度非常大所以其實要留意風險那你自己有沒有買那個做黃金存摺"},{"start":5964.898,"end":5988.467,"text":"市保委員有 都定期訂了希望改天有機會再讓你的寶貴經驗分享給大家當然本來今天銀行也都來了因為來不及了我覺得我們銀行這幾年表現也不錯但是還是要需要再接再厲因為再接再厲好福氣我們看民間的銀行"},{"start":5989.867,"end":6013.563,"text":"那個股價都很高我們也期許在莊部長不要威脅啦你要利誘因為這個董總心智太低了你人事結構也好好想一下多鼓勵他們把餅做大把成效績效做出來希望大家新年通通過一個太平快樂年謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝羅民財委員"},{"start":6019.079,"end":6021.523,"text":"接下來請賴慧妍委員質詢 謝謝我在羅明采的後面很吃虧啊他不斷的出金句好 謝謝主席我請財政部部長好 請莊部長"},{"start":6037.978,"end":6055.046,"text":"是 部長早安連長我想針對統一花票的給獎還有推行的一個預算來跟部長做一個探討當然就是統一花票的一個抽獎那其實就是跟我們日常生活其實是相關的"},{"start":6055.586,"end":6079.119,"text":"那就是說每天買東西我們會去索取花票會不會中獎這個是我們生活上的一個經驗那在這裡跟部長跟那個署長討論一下就是統一花票相關經會的一個編列跟執行那這個非常明確的我們看到了就是說這個法院上沒有問題我們就是從那個"},{"start":6082.512,"end":6092.507,"text":"前年的那個營業總稅額提撥3%來支付可是如果我們看到的就是說在115年你的這個預算書裡頭那你編的就是"},{"start":6099.326,"end":6103.11,"text":"1971億可是你這個統一花票如果你用3%來提撥的話你其實才是1791億這一個數字你多出來的18億是從哪邊來的"},{"start":6122.524,"end":6133.711,"text":"在這裡面因為3%算出來以後除了給獎之外那還有需要一些行政的一些經費那這裡面獎金其實是佔了將近96%都是發送獎金那還有一些系統的維運還有發售經費以及推行經費"},{"start":6142.732,"end":6148.879,"text":"這個部分是這樣的一個做編列那最主要還是作為獎金發放所以妳的獎金就佔了96%將近96%"},{"start":6155.202,"end":6173.354,"text":"对相关经费对就其中有关奖金的部分就达到96%对所以所以就是说如果那你这样子114年的这个预算数的话因为你受台美关系的一个影响你少编了那115年那为什么会多编呢"},{"start":6175.342,"end":6184.344,"text":"我們是按照營業稅的全年的預算數預算案數來估3%對金額來這樣算那114年度因為是我們當時編的以後在立法院審議的時候被通山掉了這個金費所以下降對當時有通山那所以減少那115年我們因為目前預算案還沒有審我們是按照全年的營業稅的預算數"},{"start":6204.308,"end":6217.219,"text":"來按3%做編列好 你是因為就是114年被統三了那賴思寶委員他有質疑你就是說你的115年那你編的這一個營業稅收入的那個預算總數那個的657億的這個3%變成是197億那還沒有收到的錢你怎麼編預算呢"},{"start":6228.822,"end":6249.962,"text":"這個可以解釋一下嗎所以每一年大概都是這樣我們還沒有收到但是我們還是要因為依照法律是全年收入的3%所以我們要先編這個編在稅出的部分那稅入歸稅入所以都會編都用這樣的方式來編還沒有收到但是還是要先編那我們就會按照這樣的數字來安排每一期要開發的開獎的一個組數所以說這個編列預算沒有問題沒有問題就是說"},{"start":6254.986,"end":6272.657,"text":"就是說有些委員之一你說你這個編列預算是不是你用你的行政財量權還是說用其他的一個方式變成這樣的一個情況沒有 我們都是按照我們先估一個營業稅的全國收入的預算案數來做編列的"},{"start":6273.311,"end":6291.838,"text":"好 部長剛才我聽到了就是說你們對電子花票的一個推廣的一個成效你們感到非常非常的滿意那本席今天就是這個帶了兩張花票特別給你做參考這個是電子花票這個是傳統的花票傳統花票它"},{"start":6292.498,"end":6295.701,"text":"它有一個200塊的一個特別獎那雲端的 雲端的它是500塊那這個雲端的話正如你們講的推廣了這麼好那是不是相對的對我們這些偏鄉這些偏鄉的這些百姓的話顯然是有點吃虧"},{"start":6315.18,"end":6338.013,"text":"為什麼 它變成一個數位的二等公民因為我們很多老人其實他沒有辦法用智慧性的一個手機你看你現在所有就是說我讓你用一個台南的一個本席的選區裡頭11個區其實它這裡才只有3個區是達到了你的雲端花票的一個標準"},{"start":6339.696,"end":6362.684,"text":"後面的幾乎有很多就是說他還是用在資本花票裡頭那針對了這個情況的話就是說我們好像看到了你們推廣的這些數字非常的漂亮可是實際上對於偏鄉的這些人顯然就是不太公平那部長你怎麼看待這個事情"},{"start":6364.418,"end":6386.512,"text":"我想委員您這樣的一個建議非常好我們也要去除了都會型的以外在偏鄉的部分讓民眾也會去用所謂的雲端發票那用了雲端發票它這中獎機會當然也就跟著增加那你用什麼方式偏鄉你用什麼方式因為我們現在看到就是你的總體成長量"},{"start":6388.593,"end":6417.32,"text":"那可是我們沒有看到你那個縮小那個偏鄉的一個差距是不是有一些方式有一些方式就是說我們從店家當然推廣是非常重要推廣了直接你們有沒有就是說去強化強化就是說到農會去到廟宇去還有到長照的機構去還是說中午共餐的地方這個其實就是最基本的因為你要普及"},{"start":6418.584,"end":6425.418,"text":"你希望來普及那你店家徵購的這一些設備有沒有辦法我們去鼓勵他"},{"start":6426.889,"end":6447.991,"text":"我们其实也有一些鼓励的一些措施我们希望尤其是有一些商家可以使用云端发票那我们都鼓励然后国税局也会下乡去做辅导除外我们对于优秀的厂商商家也会做鼓励跟颁奖那我觉得委员您所提到的就是说"},{"start":6448.792,"end":6453.455,"text":"長輩他沒有這個手機裡面的手機條碼以至於他縱使想要用雲端發票而沒有辦法有載具讓他刷然後進入所謂的雲端發票這個部分那我們這一次在有關推廣計劃裡面已經有做一些調整跟修正那委員您所提出的這個部分我們會把它納進去看用什麼樣的方式除了對於賣家就是所謂的商店"},{"start":6473.687,"end":6486.894,"text":"來做處理之外同時對於消費者的部分因為他本身沒有這方面的意識的話那我們可以看用什麼方式讓他可以更深入他沒有經驗的話你要加深他的經驗他使用的一個經驗對 你只要 你看"},{"start":6491.977,"end":6495.159,"text":"這個你這樣宣傳刷這一張200塊你得獎200塊刷這一張得獎500塊這個非常顯而易見要不然我來整個我講就來講我就幫你講這些事情可是問題是你的配套要出來配套要出來那這些配套的話就是說我覺得"},{"start":6513.948,"end":6539.04,"text":"部長 你講的還是有點空話我希望就是說你可以講得比較具體因為我們鄉下的長輩他很多就是用健保卡健保卡幾乎比他的身分證他用到的次數還多那有沒有機會就是說我們把這個載具這個載具其實你那個條碼都可以刷出來就是鼓勵他們把它貼在他的那個"},{"start":6540.16,"end":6557.262,"text":"那個健保卡那個上面然後當然是要綁定戶頭啦這個的話其實這個一個很小的動作如果我們財政部很具體的去把它推動的時候我相信對這一個電子花票的一個推廣馬上會看到成效"},{"start":6558.002,"end":6567.008,"text":"是的我想我們國稅局在有很多地方都有所謂基徵所以及分局他們要更深入了解當地的一個情況然後用什麼方式加強推廣那當然這個部分我們也可以跟委員請教也就是長輩們他最習慣用什麼我們用什麼樣的方式來讓他們更接受這樣的一個方式來做消費"},{"start":6578.795,"end":6601.81,"text":"是 你講到你的國稅局我要特別提醒你你這個次長的人事跟後面整個署長還有就是你的國稅局局長這個一大掛的人其實都是在等這個上端的這個次長的人事案你全部一堆都塞車了你知不知道這個情況"},{"start":6603.806,"end":6623.525,"text":"相關的人事我們會做通盤的考量會也快盡速處理是你要盡速啊你要盡速啊就是這個大家其實在那邊就是人心惶惶啊到底誰要去當市長誰要來當署長然後局長誰來那個這個整個就是說可以坐在這個位置好好的來做事情是謝謝委員執教是好"},{"start":6626.109,"end":6627.232,"text":"所以在這裡還是要特別再跟部長就是說比較具體的一個"},{"start":6635.031,"end":6659.607,"text":"建議了就是說電子花票在這個城鄉差距上你在鄉下的一個推動事實上他是有他的一個必須要可是你要用對方法這個方法這個有賴於就是說大家的一個用心我還是建議就是說我們用在我們的健保卡我們這個條碼把它貼在我們的這個健保卡上面的話我相信這個成效會很快很快就"},{"start":6660.828,"end":6678.22,"text":"表現出來了會在這裡還是那個請部長好好考慮一下委員的建議我們會納入演藝參考用什麼方式去做我希望就是說你這個一個月的時間可以提出來一個比較好的一個推廣的方式一個月內給委員報告是謝謝謝謝謝謝賴會員委員"},{"start":6689.082,"end":6691.263,"text":"接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢主席在場的委員先進列席的政府經濟上的官員會長 共同夥伴媒體之間的女士先生有請莊部長還有互稅署的宋署長請莊部長 宋署長財資中心的張主任張主任"},{"start":6721.023,"end":6738.9,"text":"委員好我先問宋署長部長好 那署長好 署長我先問署長 宋署長你有拿過發票嗎有喔 不用緊張有沒有拿過發票我現在都有 如果有人暈斷發票我都先會PP那你最近拿的發票是電子發票嗎"},{"start":6740.467,"end":6760.595,"text":"都是雲端發票 只要能刷的話我幫部長請教一下目前我根據你們資料114年度你們的租稅宣導活動有1230萬人參加這個數字看起來很大但是營業人只有不到1萬人 9900募集了489張的發票給社會福利團體你認為這不到500萬張的發票"},{"start":6765.788,"end":6782.191,"text":"是多還是少你們在推動捐發票做愛心你們有在做嗎有你有沒有聽過愛心碼有你有做過愛心碼嗎沒有 大部分沒有好 來你覺得不到500張捐給公益團體的發票占我們總體的發票多不多"},{"start":6784.405,"end":6811.807,"text":"因為捐發票這個動作基本上還是要其實捐紙本發票是給公益團體製造他們人工的支出捐電子發票很方便愛心多少就出去了因為你也沒用過我告訴你雲端發票110年度開了63億3100萬張結果我們目前公益團體收不到500萬張占比多少千分之0.8不到"},{"start":6813.497,"end":6838.91,"text":"請問一下署長你們有在來我用部長好了部長您覺得捐發票做愛心值不值得財政部去支持去推廣值得然後我們是會在那你覺得如果你要捐發票你會怎麼捐把那個紙本發票丟進去嗎你有沒有捐過那是紙本你有沒有捐過我沒有捐過發票你有沒有捐過你有沒有聽過愛心我也沒聽過你也沒聽過愛心可見了糟糕了"},{"start":6843.174,"end":6863.53,"text":"部長吃了誠實豆沙包他認為捐發票做愛心很好但是他沒有聽過愛心他只知道資本發票然後我們宋署長他都是拿電子發票但是他也不曾捐過愛心好 我來告訴你來 我們看統一發票統一發票其實目的不是做愛心我要跟你講我沒有要你們不務正業來 看一下意思"},{"start":6865.411,"end":6888.48,"text":"當年任選群的時候 民國39年那時候弄了一個發貨票跟給獎暫行辦法 目的防止逃漏充實稅收39年首度實施收了2,900 隔了一年收到5,100有沒有效果 有效果所以這裡面有兩個部分 規定誰要使用發票而且要給獎 對不對你們給獎是定多少 給獎是定幾% 定3% 對不對"},{"start":6894.344,"end":6899.386,"text":"過去是大概187億你們實際大概是168億我們看下一頁現在誰開的發票最多署長你們告訴我這些特別中獎的青車來自哪裡是不是都是連鎖店是不是都是連鎖店"},{"start":6912.871,"end":6931.556,"text":"為什麼因為連鎖店開的發票佔我們發出的發票9成以上所以你要大家再去營業人用發票其實大部分民眾拿到來對獎的發票已經是連鎖店了連鎖店會逃漏不開發票嗎基本上不會所以說我們往下看"},{"start":6937.245,"end":6944.472,"text":"所以說過去你們的預算變了197億我請問你 多少是獎金 多少是宣導目前96%是獎金 96% 4%是宣導4%乘以不到200億大概多少錢 大概8000萬"},{"start":6956.191,"end":6974.078,"text":"沒有 8億啦 8億對不對你們8億要去做什麼 做宣導嘛 是不是但是呢 其實大家關心的都什麼委員會關心什麼 小確幸關心的是拿獎金其實呢 有沒有獎金決定了消費者拿不拿發票"},{"start":6974.958,"end":6989.21,"text":"但是對於店家他要不要開發票其實差別有限是不是這樣子好 我們來往下看所以說你們現在統一發票繼續給獎有沒有開發受援的效果有該裝的都裝了"},{"start":6990.356,"end":7008.855,"text":"對不對 你們該裝發票的都裝啦只是鼓勵民眾要繼續去拿我們沒有人敢說要廢掉同意發票來給人家獎金因為這是民眾的小確幸但是民眾還需要你去宣導拿發票嗎他不是因為你宣導去拿發票的他是因為有獎金他拿發票像我 我都捐愛心嘛"},{"start":7009.778,"end":7037.423,"text":"我也不在乎獎金但是你的宣導應該已經效果極致了其實統一發票現在的功能是什麼從變成增加稅收保時安是不是這樣子每次發現時安問題我們都是查什麼查營業人交易鏈的發票流向找到源頭嘛所以透過這個競銷項的沖底你們可以找到什麼找到一個物流跟金流的憑證是不是"},{"start":7038.844,"end":7054.796,"text":"所以部長來請你部長來其實統一發票不要小看它已經不是幫助我們國家徵稅收的方式它是確保我們這個社會的經濟活動運行物流跟金流有一個憑證幫助食安你同不同意"},{"start":7055.871,"end":7075.626,"text":"完全同意我們來看現在食安說什麼現在餐飲業衛福部說什麼說從業人員 餐飲從業人員調理食品的時候首部不可以同時或接觸繼續接觸金錢你支持嗎你敢不敢去買個小吃攤他跟你要跟你找錢找了錢插一下再繼續煮你敢吃嗎所以你支持嘛對不對衛福在這活動支持但是衛福不敢用罰的啊罰的夜市攤會發發叫啊"},{"start":7085.416,"end":7111.162,"text":"財政部可以幫忙 你知道怎麼幫忙嗎往下看其實去年我跟宋組長跟你這邊溝通了很久我們優先導入小規模營業人導入行動支付的優先方法本來小規模營業人是1%如果說他月經營業額超過20萬照規定要同意發票要增加很多的成本但是你們如果鼓勵這些餐飲同業他們用自助找營 自助收營 點餐系統"},{"start":7112.122,"end":7121.388,"text":"不用碰錢對不對用電子支付也好用時鈔也好所以呢這種情況之下你們維持他一趴的優惠換成你是小店家你會不會心動對"},{"start":7125.27,"end":7142.076,"text":"一般小店家不願意承認我的營業額超過20萬超過20萬要變你們怎麼樣 要用統一發票從401到405的報表 很麻煩 對不對所以你們給他1% 他可以到哪裡署長告訴我 他月經營業額是不是可以到80萬同樣是月經營業額 他過去只找20萬以下的1%"},{"start":7149.195,"end":7170.528,"text":"你現在鼓勵他說用這個方式他的實收營業額到80萬以下的還是1%你增加多少的稅收1%變成20萬變成80萬增加4倍要不要鼓勵 部長要不要鼓勵當然鼓勵啊這個才會有用啊部長請繼續你現在好像很怕接近麥克風"},{"start":7172.901,"end":7200.851,"text":"所以我要跟你說的是說統一發票的宣傳跟給獎給獎絕對要保持但是宣傳你已經不需要去宣傳了該賺的店家都裝了現在這些小店家他維持1%在20萬月經營業額如果你讓他這個優惠他想反正我就用這個機器我的月經營業額在80萬以內我都還是1%他會願意這時候你的稅收增加了4倍你要不要去宣導"},{"start":7202.91,"end":7206.211,"text":"還有你這樣幫助什麼幫助我們國民的食安幫助這些餐飲小店他的調理人員 調理食物師前後不用再去碰觸金錢你支不支持部長支不支持"},{"start":7232.449,"end":7247.861,"text":"委員非常支持這個部分然後我們財政部也訂了相關的一個機制包含就是所謂用行動支付還有多媒體資訊服務的點餐因為這樣子所以我想謝謝委員好 我要告訴你說統一發票你現在大部分都是由連鎖業出來的了其實你要繼續宣導它的防逃漏 收效慎為但是如果這些原來不用統一發票的小店家你鼓勵他用這個自助收銀點餐機"},{"start":7260.791,"end":7284.321,"text":"它因為月經營業額提高到80萬以上以下還可以維持1%它會採用所以是不是有助於稅收減輕負擔有嘛所以最後我們希望你們知道嗎你們過去國稅局的宣導路跑活動有因為路跑活動去多拿發票的有沒有舉手看一看我有去參加路跑我參加了三年"},{"start":7286.328,"end":7313.138,"text":"你們擺攤位送贈品啊我每次去參加園園優惠倒數三名的就是三個宣導第一 反我宣導第二 反詐騙宣導第三 租稅宣導因為大家覺得你們贈品都 瘦瘦其實你們要宣傳的是什麼幫助小店家使用你們的自助收銀然後點餐機讓他們享受80萬月均營業額以下一趴的優惠部長 支持不支持"},{"start":7314.42,"end":7334.08,"text":"宣導除了路跑活動之外其實還有多元的方式以及去輔導你舉一個例子我來聽聽我經常在地方跟你們稅局配合你應該請你們賦稅署跟國稅局多多的開發多元你們跟傳統店家在鄉下告訴他們小店家用這個自助"},{"start":7335.307,"end":7346.8,"text":"收銀 點餐機讓老人用現鈔也可以用讓這些稅務代理人也去用甚至你們跟經濟部走經濟部在2018年推動了行動支付1%的優惠 對不對"},{"start":7348.632,"end":7374.658,"text":"那時候你們財政部有發宣導會嗎沒有通通都是經濟部你要不要我幫你跟經濟部請他們一起來宣導我們一起宣導也可以你希望我去跟經濟部講嗎我們自己也可以聯絡你不希望我跟經濟部講那也當然委員願意幫忙很好我就照你的意思我一定下次質詢經濟部叫他們好好的來做宣導幫助我們的小店家幫助我們的國民食安好不好最後結論讓他複製更多對"},{"start":7376.118,"end":7391.523,"text":"然後你們的4億的宣導費拿一下來用有效宣導 查訂 科證 營業人使用行動支付及多媒體資訊服務機適用租稅優惠對不起啊這個實在不是一個很好的宣傳詞我一口氣都念不完啊"},{"start":7393.079,"end":7418.884,"text":"簡單講就是什麼鼓勵這些免用統一發票的小店家尤其餐飲業用自助收銀點餐機讓他可以享受月均營業額80萬以下維持營業稅1%的優惠我現在講的這段影片剪下來好好去宣導花點錢宣導四億拿出一些出來宣導跟經濟部一起宣導好不好好的謝謝委員充實稅收幫助國民食安好不好是的好謝謝好謝謝鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":7424.987,"end":7426.705,"text":"接下來我們請李坤澄召委"},{"start":7435.612,"end":7460.545,"text":"謝謝主席請我們財政部莊部長因為我也同樣關心年終獎金的問題所以我再請一下我們台灣銀行的董事長土地銀行的董事長然後兆豐金控董事長第一金控董事長華南金控董事長合作金庫董事長彰化銀行的董事長台灣中小企業銀行的董事長"},{"start":7463.454,"end":7477.283,"text":"請各位董事長先問一下部長我們公股銀行去年的績效好不好去年績效很好然後剛剛董事長也都報告他們的營收都創新高"},{"start":7480.049,"end":7496.446,"text":"您說的創新高那表示台灣去年的經濟成長率真的不錯那也顯現在我們銀行的績效上面對不對那我就請教一下銀行的績效好那其實也要鼓勵我們銀行的員工"},{"start":7497.327,"end":7520.434,"text":"那当然大家也都很关心说那我们所有这个公股银行那我们的这个员工的这个年终奖金因为今天是一月底了嘛那年终奖金应该是过年前发还是有些是在过年后发我想银行的部分可能有这样子那依序来好了好不好那是不是先请我们这个林董事长"},{"start":7522.325,"end":7542.615,"text":"委員好因為我們的獎金年終獎金兩個月是會先發至於績效獎金因為要等到財政部考核我們確定以後我們才能發所以績效獎金是不會發但是因為同仁還是有過年資金的需求所以我們會先借給他然後每個月再扣回來"},{"start":7543.175,"end":7557.74,"text":"所以就是還是會在過年前先發4.4個月就對了但是先借但是每個月再扣回來這個我們自己的台灣銀行就是就是最多就4.4個月對不對來 那圖銀呢謝謝 謝謝林董事長那我們圖銀何董事長"},{"start":7560.302,"end":7575.864,"text":"土銀的部分的話是在過年前會有先戒資1.5個月然後我們全年的年終獎金大概落在每年的七八月的時候才會把這4.4個月花完所以那過年前"},{"start":7576.721,"end":7606.084,"text":"過年前就先戒指它1.5個月那所以跟這個台灣銀行是一樣應該正常是一樣然後是到7、8月的時候才對 考了下來以後才會把4.4個月全部花了對啊 因為過年前總是希望大家都領年終嘛7、8月再領就不叫年終獎金了那也是一樣4.4個月是你看這個部長這個你直屬下面的這個大概台灣銀行跟土地銀行就是4.4個月來 那我們這一個公股洋龍頭來 招風的董董事長"},{"start":7607.205,"end":7629.182,"text":"委員好我們的程序大概差不多不過我們的獎金包括就是兩個月的年終獎金那另外還有就是績效那績效當然就要看整個績效情況那另外還有一項就是我們的員工酬勞所以那個部分就變成要開完董事會的時候才能決定的所以整個加起來如果發去年的話大概是八個月左右 八個月"},{"start":7629.582,"end":7648.41,"text":"那所以今年呢 今年應該不會今年是發的是去年的那今年的年終獎是發去年的對 發去年整個年度的經營績效那大概是八個月左右八個月八個月左右 好 謝謝接下來第一金控 邱董事長"},{"start":7650.018,"end":7659.563,"text":"8個月 其他我看林董事長跟何董事長我們員工表現也不差但是沒有辦法財政部這邊有一關卡住了來 邱董事長"},{"start":7660.72,"end":7688.518,"text":"報告委員第一輕控這邊去年已經也是創新高我們年終獎金大概包括所謂的考積績效跟員工酬勞將近八個月會在年結的時候先預支一個月然後在四月份再將剩餘的款項再撥給同仁也是一樣大概八個月左右所以也是先預支一個月一個月會不會太少我看其他比如說像台銀土地銀行都有兩個月"},{"start":7689.901,"end":7697.534,"text":"我們一個月但是我們那個春節獎金也有一個月這樣子那所以是"},{"start":7698.16,"end":7722.095,"text":"大概在年中的時候會發兩個月發兩個月這樣比較合理不然其他的你們績效也很好然後其他都可以先發到兩個月然後你們如果只發一個月看起來是稍微少一點所以是可以發到兩個月是嗎 還是一個月中間的中是有一個月然後在春節前世界是一個月將近兩個月這樣子"},{"start":7724.229,"end":7744.569,"text":"那我覺得還是你們要去檢討一下啦如果說大家都可以發到兩個月因為這個只是先給你拿未來還是會還你啊對不對那我覺得你們考慮一下啦如果可以的話我覺得還是給員工兩個月啦好不好好謝謝謝謝邱董事長接下來黃蘭金控陳董事長"},{"start":7747.338,"end":7776.323,"text":"我們一直以來都是年前先發1.5個月然後剩餘的是在4月的時候會發放預計今年的話會超過7個月超過7個月我也建議就是2個月你們也是1.5個月對 這個我覺得也是可以2個月好不好如果其他銀行都有2個月的話不然大家會互相比較好不好好 謝謝陳董事長合作金庫林董事長"},{"start":7778.376,"end":7796.791,"text":"包括我們的年終獎金大概預期也是會超過七個月那過年前也是會先發考核獎金一個月然後還有一個月的戒指那所以是兩個月我還是希望如果有機會還是超兩個月啦好謝謝謝謝林董事長來張華銀行胡董事長"},{"start":7801.021,"end":7826.292,"text":"包委 我們今年一季大概總共接近八個月我們會先發一個半月然後另外介資一個半月所以你們有三個月是三個月 那看起來是比較起來是彰化銀行的這一個對員工來講是最溫暖的好 謝謝謝謝吳董事長台灣中小企業銀行李董事長"},{"start":7827.492,"end":7842.91,"text":"是 報告委員我們的講述辦法裡面三節是發兩個月所以春節會先發一個月然後再戒支1.5個月所以是2.5個月是那全年呢全年今年預估去年因為獲利創新高大概會超過8個月"},{"start":7844.392,"end":7860.692,"text":"超過8個月是好 謝謝等一下所有董事長在留步等一下還有問題要問你們來 莊部長所以先聽起來大概其實除了台灣銀行跟土地銀行之外大概都有7 8個月的水準對不對"},{"start":7861.973,"end":7887.755,"text":"是的所以这个落差你还是要想办法这个同样都是银行人员那这个部分因为涉及到整个国营事业的一个福利以及待遇的部分是由整个人总以及行政院那边来做统一规划然后原来我们的国营事业是可以到4.6个月但后来因为立法院的决议把它改成4.4个月这个部分我们也希望能够是不是可以给予"},{"start":7888.075,"end":7905.273,"text":"這個當然有些是我們行政院內部的整體那我是覺得說既然都是銀行的公股銀行的我們的從業人員那其實待遇真的是不要差太多那怎麼樣去做爭取部長也要幫他們爭取我們會積極的來跟行政院來做爭取"},{"start":7910.137,"end":7926.645,"text":"對啊 那不要說這個好像就是案子送到行政院去然後好像沒有動靜了然後就一年一年這樣子我來這邊兩年了金融事業的競爭也很激烈的對啊 好那我現在就問到說大家也很關心關稅的問題其實昨天有討論過"},{"start":7930.027,"end":7946,"text":"這個總共它有分兩個層次一個是2500億由企業自所投資這樣其實大家都知道說其實我們大企業大概扣掉這個台積電之外1650億其他的一些我們跟半導體相關的這些大的一些企業他們"},{"start":7946.761,"end":7957.211,"text":"因為台積電會過去投資他們也會再過去投資這是一部分另外一部分就是屬於信用保證在信用保證我們昨天有提到說2500億這2500億就是由國發基金這邊來統籌但是需要我們公股銀行這邊來做配合 對不對"},{"start":7965.134,"end":7976.439,"text":"就國發會來做規劃做一個專案規劃然後國發基金出資以及公股銀行還有民營銀行一起來參與好 那我問一下那我先問一下台銀行林董事長預備"},{"start":7979.237,"end":7995.762,"text":"這個企業都會大企業啦當然有些大企業他們自己不一定需要跟這個銀行來借錢但是有一些中小企業可能他要去美國投資需要跟銀行這邊來借錢那就你們來講的話就這一部分那個信用保證基金你們一般都是怎麼樣處理的"},{"start":7998.02,"end":8020.923,"text":"其實這個對中小企業的保證有一個是叫中小企業信保基金那這是針對規模比較小的中小型的企業那目前要規劃的這個國發基金規劃的這個就是國家融資保證機制這個是會針對比較大型的企業那如果看中小企業的規模如果他覺得中小信保足夠他運用的話他就可以來申請中小信保"},{"start":8021.263,"end":8042.756,"text":"那因為整個國保的機制目前還在規劃當中所以也不太知道說這個未來的費率還有這整個額度現在都還沒有定案那如果這些企業要去美國投資跟你台灣銀行借錢你會借給他們嗎有保證我們就會借有保證 你說有政府的保證就會借對…好 那我請教一下這一個趙峰董董事長"},{"start":8044.318,"end":8068.449,"text":"那如果企業要去美國投資要跟你們借錢的話來敢不敢借 可不肯借 要不要借我想還是回到5P的原則不管他去哪個國家投資我們還是要先看看他的風險情況他的5P我們審核過的話那當然我們就會借但如果說在這個屬於信用的有一個margin的話那當然就是說如果有保證我們的借貸的意願會更高"},{"start":8068.809,"end":8089.029,"text":"不是 這等於是國家來當這個靠山了國家由我們的國發基金它有當一個靠山然後就是擔心因為就像你講的就是說你們要考慮這麼多的因素在這種情況之下有一些企業可能不一定不一定有這個機會借到錢如果說有國發基金當靠山的話"},{"start":8090.37,"end":8113.758,"text":"它的情況還是這樣就是它不會是百分之百的不會是百分之百的信用保證如果百分之百信用保證的話它會有一個道德風險所以大概譬如說保個八成保個七成這樣子所以如果保七成保八成的話對銀行來講我們還是有風險的所以我們當然還是要回到5P原則來審查老實講這些要去美國投資的這些企業規模也不會太小"},{"start":8115.068,"end":8136.282,"text":"當然如果以現在所談的這些關稅的話應該都是大企業大企業基本上他們財務狀況都不錯所以當然本來我們對他的信用對他的這個整個信心就比較高但是如果他的相對其他的一些供應鏈的話那當然我們還是必須要回到這裡基本上我們還是都會從5P的方式來所以其實如果你們借給這些大企業你們也能夠活力當然"},{"start":8138.143,"end":8154.511,"text":"所以我是希望說有關於這個信用保證未來跟公股銀行借錢的這部分我是希望能夠達到雙贏就是說讓企業有這個更多的資金去美國投資那也能夠讓你們銀行能夠賺錢信用保證是一個信用加強的機制"},{"start":8156.533,"end":8169.003,"text":"好 OK 好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝我們部長還有所有的公務員 董事長 謝謝好 謝謝李貪生委員的質詢部長請回接下來我們請黃珊珊委員質詢謝謝主席 我請財政部部長請莊部長"},{"start":8188.809,"end":8204.428,"text":"委員好部長我想最近大家都看到很多新聞是說我們非常多民眾的小確幸電子發票一塊錢中了上千萬這個是一件好事現在電子發票在推廣的過程裡面目前的比例大概大多少了"},{"start":8205.575,"end":8220.587,"text":"我们的87%大概都使用电子发票那我们更希望能够运用云端发票然后存到载具里面去因为现在在载具就主动帮你对讲就不会像有的人找不到了"},{"start":8221.527,"end":8240.384,"text":"那当然还要主动对讲之外还要下载我们的APP云端现在比例是多少云端电子发票的65%65%所以还有很大的成长空间是我们希望大家都能够运用所以电子发票是重要的国家政策而且也做了非常的久"},{"start":8241.129,"end":8258.992,"text":"那减少纸张浪费的话还有电子账务将来在账务查税上面可能对负税署也有很大的帮助是的那我上次其实在这边已经讲过时间暂停我请一下主计处的副主席时间暂停请蔡副主计长"},{"start":8268.425,"end":8280.937,"text":"是 副主席長其實我這個事情在我一到立法院就問過了公家部門對於電子發票跟尤其是電子發票的使用"},{"start":8282.711,"end":8298.652,"text":"當時主計長是說有 我們有一個共同的採購契約希望鼓勵但是我們在台北市政府的時候現在台北市政府的電子發票率幾乎是99%我想問一下公部門目前的政府採購有把電子發票作為優先採購的項目嗎"},{"start":8302.212,"end":8329.879,"text":"報告黃委員那個是公務工程委員會在但是主計總處是負責所有的核小碼我相信主計單位因為你可以去查一下台北市台北市的主計單位基本上已經都全面的電子發票其他的公部門還有中央主管機關尤其是像你們主計單位你們自己有沒有做這樣的要求或者是公部門有沒有做這樣的KPI"},{"start":8331.66,"end":8345.055,"text":"我們的經費捷報系統電子化的經費捷報系統裡面每年要拉高多少 至少有個進度表你有沒有做 做了怎麼樣 成效如何這兩年前我就問過了"},{"start":8346.335,"end":8365.751,"text":"是…我們是說如果廠商有電子花票那他就不用再檢附那個花票不用再黏來黏去啦一張紙黏得亂七八糟啦那個系統就自動到財政部那個…好啦 副主席這樣我今天我覺得這件事情還是重要的不管怎麼樣政府部門因公…由公而失剛"},{"start":8367.152,"end":8389.264,"text":"財政部很努力的在推那現在已經達到八成多了但是政府部門竟然沒有把它列為首要的優先尤其主計單位沒有做這樣的要求我覺得很可惜很多地方政府目前做不到我相信很困難因為對他們來說是習慣的改變但是台北市做得到我相信其他單位也做得到至少你主計總署所轄單位應該大力的去宣導可以嗎"},{"start":8390.92,"end":8416.81,"text":"對 我們的捷報系統就電子化捷報系統 就是盡量也可以省很多事情 很多人力很多相關的作業嘛 好嗎提供誘因啦你至少開始提出50%的成長率吧 好嗎我相信這個主席總書做得到啦只要你下個命令我相信各單位 主席單位都會努力以赴嘛你們每年要做那麼多工作這是我的第一個要求好 副主席長請回"},{"start":8418.251,"end":8443.488,"text":"好 部長那接下來的問題就是等一下那個負稅署署長要上來現在發票已經成為民眾還有商家一定會使用的東西了我不曉得目前為止依照財政部的函式同意發票不是屬於所謂的公益勸募條例裡面的財務範圍所以募發票不需要向衛福部或主管機關來做報備對不對所以誰都可以募發票嗎誰都可以募集發票嗎"},{"start":8451.062,"end":8465.644,"text":"我們在超商都會捐一個那個發票收集的嘛對不對那個可能是某某某某公益團體我們就被丟進去然後他中獎了增加他的收益嘛對吧那所以不是公益團體可不可以募發票"},{"start":8469.326,"end":8492.091,"text":"沒有規定 所以表示任何人都可以募發票募集發票 所以大家可以收集發票收集發票要幹嘛 中獎嘛另外一種要幹嘛 討漏稅 報帳我現在就出示一個非常有趣的畫面在臉書裡面有個社團叫做買賣發票交流團"},{"start":8494.484,"end":8515.621,"text":"發票買賣交流團裡面有1831個成員然後裡面告訴你說曾賣2月份的加油發票可協助塔桶邊我的加油發票我可以賣我可以打你的桶邊請你跟我聯絡接下去受工程發票百分之比%可談請跟我聯絡也就是我在賣發票還公然賣發票"},{"start":8522.182,"end":8532.324,"text":"接下來有需要工程發票請找我可以當場交易另外一個是找長期配合開發票的工程公司收加油發票4000塊去打統編的高雄面交者加發票面額10%作為酬勞部長我剛問是不是每個人都可以搜集發票"},{"start":8547.489,"end":8574.796,"text":"這是不可以的而且還做這個買賣而且他是公開社團你現在部長你現在打開臉書你也看得到還有一個承收一月份的加油發票共需六千塊虛打公司同編接受雙北面交易發票面額百分之十支付買賣要加油發票幹嘛員工要拿回去公司報帳的啦或者是公司在蒐集裡面做抵銷的啦"},{"start":8576.465,"end":8599.652,"text":"拿工程發票要幹嘛 抵稅嘛都是這一種 這裡面一頭拉骨人一頭拉骨 這個查過沒 要不要查這個部分我們盡快去查他已經行之有年 甚至有人直接說跟我聯絡 還有人上去抱怨說我都已經打完你的編號了 結果你失聯了"},{"start":8601.762,"end":8615.131,"text":"還在這邊抱怨表示這件事情行之有年公司員工拿假發票回去公司報帳小錢那個賣工程5%的發票的人是大錢啊負稅署知道這件事嗎"},{"start":8619.569,"end":8641.512,"text":"國稅局知道這件事嗎剛才我有請同仁去問一下國稅局局長他們目前是都說沒有聽到這件事就是我上臉書就查得到然後你們沒聽說這樣是怎樣不是提醒他就在那裡anytime你只要上去打發票買賣就有這個臉書的網而且他裡面一堆而且應該行之多年"},{"start":8644.057,"end":8660.455,"text":"買賣發票我剛剛講公益團體可以募集發票他只能拿去對講除非公益團體也拿去核銷那就有問題但這個擺明了就是要逃漏稅幫助逃漏稅是不是有刑責的是"},{"start":8661.682,"end":8676.387,"text":"幫助買賣發票是不是也有刑責如果他涉及以詐欺或其他不正當方式協助貪婪討論他收代價 收10%的代價有沒有刑責 要不要移送法辦我已經幫你打好你的桶邊了請你跟我聯絡這樣有沒有罪"},{"start":8678.428,"end":8699.193,"text":"如果我们查到具体证据一定会依法处理这其实是很严重的问题如果是只是对讲那就算了你没有拿出去交易现在是要依照相关的规定税捐基增法41条买发票的部分他以诈诉或其他不正方法逃漏税捐"},{"start":8700.553,"end":8729.514,"text":"要五年以下有期徒刑如果帮助或教唆一样三年以下有期徒刑这些不管是帮助还是教唆甚至已经在从事甚至已经交易完成然后已经拿到公司去抵税了这每一个中间你都要查可以吗可以还面交我们立即处理而且严重的是还主动说我公司可以卖"},{"start":8731.601,"end":8756.516,"text":"公司可以賣發票 這件事情 知識體大他賣了多少 賣了多久 逃了多少稅嚴懲不待 抓到 移送追究他多年來的行為 可以嗎我們會盡速處理 而且依法處理而且會從嚴處理 這個不能只有我知道你們不知道啊 國稅局不知道更離譜啊"},{"start":8758.462,"end":8783.276,"text":"已經我們常年都在抓這種討論所以看到他的肖像 鏡像不正常我們也會主動去集合對不對對 沒錯我們本來就在查對那人家大剌剌在外面賣這是明目張膽這是明目張膽而且是公開社團你說他私密社團也就算你找不到公開社團每天都在你現在就可以上去幫他打個統變他就給你10%"},{"start":8785.273,"end":8809.785,"text":"有沒有很離譜因為每個人平常就會加油嘛只是加油了我們就是放在口袋裡然後拿到等到時間拿出來對講他不是耶你放在口袋裡之後我幫你打了統編你還可以去公司報這個稅然後你還要給我報仇發票不該變成犯罪的工具發票不該變成我們國家鼓勵人民不誠實的工具對吧"},{"start":8811.165,"end":8833.596,"text":"還可以拿出來銷售還可以拿出來買賣這些都是不能接受的對吧好 所以我給你一點時間雖然我們民眾黨團還是會有新的委員來接所以這個部分部長請你一個月之內查清楚回文給所有民眾黨團還有我們財政委員會的委員好嗎好 我們立即處理好 謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝我們結束黃珊珊委員的質詢接下來請林思敏委員"},{"start":8845.188,"end":8860.94,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請莊部長部長早我想今天我要先針對我們統一發票中獎獎金的議題先就教部長部長"},{"start":8863.39,"end":8889.731,"text":"我想剛才大家的這個資訊的重點都認為說統一發票制度的核心精神就是以獎勵來代替查核的成本鼓勵民眾索取發票 抑制逃漏稅進而提升政府營業稅收也就是說我們民眾他願意拿發票國家的稅收就會增加稅收增加才會有更穩定的獎金來源"},{"start":8891.348,"end":8915.483,"text":"所以請問部長既然統一發票中獎的獎金來源是由我們預估的營業稅來支應當我們今年度的營業稅收增加的時候財政部是不是也應該按比例或至少適度的在下年度去把這個增加中獎的獎項數目與獎金總額"},{"start":8919.923,"end":8946.024,"text":"跟委員報告就當說超增的時候我們不要講減的時候超增的時候營業稅增加的時候是不是要適度的做回饋我想這個部分剛剛委員講得很清楚也就是我們其實這麼多年來都是按當年度的預算案數來編那至於實增數因為在我們編列的時候並不知道實增數會多少那有增也有減"},{"start":8946.624,"end":8963.664,"text":"也會超過預算數也會少於預算數那這個部分如果要再補的話就必須要兩年後再來補因為在編的時候那我想這個部分也涉及到法律在適用上是不是可以這樣做以及預算的編列上是不是因為我們本來這邊是稅出稅入這樣子"},{"start":8965.046,"end":8988.455,"text":"所以部長您意思是說法律上可不可以編的問題因為法律上這個部分第一個我們先行的營業稅法你也認同我的講法因為你這個就是以營業稅來這個編預算來編那個3%來這個作為獎金這個是這個比例是已經固定下去了所以你的營業稅增加的時候"},{"start":8989.375,"end":8998.804,"text":"按照我們法律的規定你就是必須要把這個增加的營業稅的3%增加的部分你也要拿出來去作為獎金這是法律的規定因為我看到你的報告說這個如果增加的我不編就收歸國庫你剛才有回答賴司保委員這樣講"},{"start":9010.369,"end":9035.416,"text":"我們因為營業稅當年度的收入我們先估一個全年的營業稅的收入然後再把3%把它先算出來那個是周圍的那這個變成稅出你就是預估一個營業稅的稅入是多少在按財化法的規定在劃歸中央跟地方分兩塊部長我告訴你其實這跟財化法沒有關係是有關係的"},{"start":9037.717,"end":9060.482,"text":"怎么会有关系这个就是你营业税3%都是作为奖金另外97%你当然就是依照财务法的规定去分配给地方我现在讲的是营业税法的法律规定那么清楚3%应作为奖金那你怎么可以把这个3%收回国库呢你收回国库的法律依据在哪里"},{"start":9062.14,"end":9076.58,"text":"稅收收入國庫是基本的不是 但是你營業稅法有規定你就沒有依法所以我現在的問題在執行面到底下下年度你剛才一直提到下下年度依照相關的預算法能不能編的問題是不是這樣子"},{"start":9079.023,"end":9092.366,"text":"這部分我請那個蔡副主席長我想這個部分我再跟你講清楚一點我覺得還是要回饋給我們的這些納稅人還有我們的人民讓人民有小確幸"},{"start":9095.856,"end":9109.621,"text":"主席長 我現在告訴你你今天的書面報告的結論我唸一下給你聽你說統一發票的設計 給獎規範及相關政策內容均由財政部依營業稅法第58條的規定訂定統一發票的給獎辦法並負責統籌規劃與執行"},{"start":9116.563,"end":9135.024,"text":"本處於年度預算的籌編過程配合財政部推估次年度全國營業稅收的預算數何時匡列相關經費以維持統一發票給獎制度的穩定性並確保相關制度措施得以延續是 是 是"},{"start":9135.464,"end":9149.47,"text":"所以你的報告是說要依照營業稅法58條何時來編列但是如果說假設我們講今年度的營業稅超出你原來預估的徵收額"},{"start":9151.434,"end":9164.925,"text":"那依照58年的規定如果超徵了100億那你要把3%你要把3億再拿出來再看在下下年度去做編列這個預算去讓這個民眾來這個抽獎是不是應該這樣子"},{"start":9168.393,"end":9187.403,"text":"是 報告委員我們在去年8月就把預算送到立法院 是啊送今年 所以去年8月的時候當時要100 今年會收多少營業稅那是預估嘛 預估嘛所以就用 因為要編預算嘛它預估有5000"},{"start":9188.904,"end":9204.258,"text":"這個都沒有問題啦我跟你講但以後執行執行因為財政部在報告裡面講得很清楚剛剛部長也解釋得很清楚嘛實際執行如果按照我現在只是這樣問你好了啦因為我們現在一直講到說下下年度到底可不可以編"},{"start":9205.785,"end":9221.423,"text":"那你認為可不可以變因為假設我們超徵的就是100億那其中3億就是依法你一定要作為統一發票的獎金那你是不是可以在下下年度把這筆超徵的稅收"},{"start":9222.888,"end":9238.856,"text":"編在下下年度裡面的公共預算報告委員這個給講的辦法這個是財政部的權責預算是你編的你要跟財政部討論但是他對這個他們條文的解釋我們當然要尊重主管機關"},{"start":9240.016,"end":9260.954,"text":"那部長他推給你我請教你部長因為我是這個我是覺得從依法我們要核實編列法律的規定就是3%即便你今天有多收那你也要想辦法在下下年度去把它回補回去啊而不是把它這個就納入國庫啊這已經明顯違反營業稅法了嘛"},{"start":9262.569,"end":9286.717,"text":"對不對我這樣講有沒有道理跟委員報告營業稅法很明確就是說以由全年營業稅收入總額中提出3%這個全年就是指這一個年度但是你後來整個這個年度的3%但是你當初在編預算的時候是按照你整個去預估預估出來的但是你最後"},{"start":9287.757,"end":9303.161,"text":"你超真的 超真的是不是你要何時編列依照音樂稅法何時編列統一發票的獎金稅收是不是一定會比預算數來得多這不確定 但是我們說最後整個年度的預算去計算的結果確實超真的"},{"start":9311.303,"end":9318.045,"text":"那短徵的時候譬如說我們現在不講短徵我現在是跟妳講短徵當然沒有問題現在講說超徵的時候妳超徵的稅收依照營業稅法妳要拿出來做這個獎金因為如果短徵的話像114年短徵288億我覺得我還是希望妳們依法執行我們現在都是依法在執行的所以說這個妳去檢討一下好不好"},{"start":9338.112,"end":9343.662,"text":"這部分要檢討一下因為時間的問題我是覺得你們要檢討這樣才是依法行政另外針對那個"},{"start":9353.683,"end":9375.411,"text":"因為我們針對信用貸款的問題我們想台美關稅議定的內容中國發會主導的2500億的信用保證借款也會要求各行庫共同組織國家隊所扮演的角色除了融資以外也會共同出面提供保證的一個額度所以部長"},{"start":9376.391,"end":9387.249,"text":"若是按照政府這樣的規劃八大公股行庫都要加入這個信用保證計畫所以部長我們有沒有試算過各公股行庫要負擔多少的融資額度"},{"start":9388.945,"end":9411.39,"text":"部分因為國發會還在規劃當中那除了我們公股行庫之外國發基金以及民營行庫也會一起邀請加一起加入所以有關相關細節的部分大概多少現在都還不知道都還沒有做這個最後的確認是的他們還在規劃我想我們115年度的各公股行庫的預算已經編列了"},{"start":9413.103,"end":9432.192,"text":"那為了因應這項計畫若是各行庫沒有另外的一個增資計畫是否會相對的排擠到其他國內企業融資的一個需求這個部分我們一定會去考慮他們的一個資本的部分那我相信國發會在規劃的時候也會邀同我們的公股行庫一起去討論"},{"start":9437.549,"end":9442.392,"text":"所以公共航空都要去討論所以我請各位董事長上台一下好不好時間暫停一下我簡單問各位 各位簡單回答"},{"start":9462.113,"end":9472.613,"text":"我想如果說就是如果屆時國發會要求各位就是要提供一定的一個融資的一個保證"},{"start":9475.061,"end":9503.057,"text":"如果各行庫因為你現在預算已經編了未來各個行庫將會採取怎樣的方式來調整信用核貸的額度比如說我們假設我們房貸的需求會不會因為說這次你們要加入信保的融資而影響到我們房貸的需求你們要如何來調整因應我們請各位董事長一一回答好不好先請趙風晶好了"},{"start":9507.731,"end":9533.476,"text":"不會影響我們有很多的方式譬如說我們自己的增資或者是發行次數的債券或者是吸收存款等等我們有很多的方式來因應所以你們有因應的措施但是我們只要求一件事情就是說因為對美國的投資是所有的ICT產業的大家共同投資所以不應該這些產業是台灣所有銀行業的客戶所以不應該只是由關股來做關股我們可以來先做但是也希望其他的民營銀行也必須要加入"},{"start":9535.196,"end":9559.802,"text":"所以你們有因應措施土銀跟委員報告如果說國家融資保證需要土地銀行也參與的話就比照現在的中小企業信用保證基金一樣我們可能會在當年度如果不足的部分我們會補辦預算的方式來增加這一筆的支出台銀 林董"},{"start":9561.785,"end":9575.878,"text":"報告委員我們對於企業的融資主要還是看整個銀行的可以承作的能量我們台銀本身在所有的銀行當中包括民營的銀行我們的存款是最多的所以我們的量基本上應該是夠的是足夠的"},{"start":9577.219,"end":9603.434,"text":"是足夠的只是說因為我們的預算呢必須要經過這個大院的審議那我們的預算已經編列了那115年其實是還沒有開始審那至於後續呢如果要需要我們去做增資的話呢那這部分可能我們也有向行政院反映所以你們有調整的方式啦有應應的措施我有向行政院反映說這個可能還要看看這個預算的編列到底到時候這個大院審議的時候是不是有可以做一個調整的空間是是好謝謝好我們請花銀"},{"start":9609.793,"end":9632.181,"text":"我懷疑目前來說如果從資本市足率來看的話我們還是有空間的那我想因為整個需求的面目前還沒有完整的統計而且剛剛也誠如那個趙鋒那個董事長說的希望是全體的銀行一起來參加而不是只有那個公股行庫"},{"start":9633.28,"end":9639.895,"text":"我們的loading應該是可以接受的是可以承受了好 謝謝我們請第一金控"},{"start":9643.735,"end":9663.391,"text":"蕭委員報告第一金庫這幾年來因為盈餘的增加我們的整個資本市場率在今年底是大幅的提升超過法定的標準蠻大的所以我們有足夠的空間可以來因應企業的需求不會排擠到其他的企業的融資我們有蠻大的空間可以增加謝謝合作金庫 門合庫"},{"start":9669.874,"end":9684.397,"text":"委員包括我們業務的承作空間企業基金的業務承作空間還是有的這個部分應該是另外一種是應該不會排擠到我們國內的承作空間好 謝謝我們彰化商營包委員我們本來在放款就變一定的成長力我相信配合政策這個部分的話彰化營養沒有問題 謝謝都沒有問題 好"},{"start":9697.912,"end":9699.612,"text":"台灣中小企業銀行跟委員報告一下我們預算編列本來是成長型的一個編列所以我們來做一些裡面因子或結構的調整應該是沒有問題都不會受影響不會的好 謝謝我想謝謝各位今天也是我們常委會"},{"start":9719.657,"end":9734.329,"text":"可能請各位來這個會期最後一次最後祝福我們剛才羅明財委員講的祝福大家馬上幸福 馬上有錢大家都心想事成 新年快樂 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝大家 謝謝就是大家都業績長紅好 謝謝我們抓委林思敏委員接下來請 那我就講我自己李彥秀委員"},{"start":9760.247,"end":9764.531,"text":"好的我是不是可以邀請部長請莊部長委員好部長我還是要著重在今天我們專報上面的議題我們去年度2025年我們雲端發票開立的張數達到63億張這個數字很棒使用率也增加到65%"},{"start":9788.03,"end":9806.776,"text":"同一發票的APP的下載人數突破743萬張這個數據其實很漂亮很棒我必須要肯定部長那過去這幾年我們也增加民眾的中獎的機率去年包括雲端發票的使用去年使用達到65%提升了4.9%將近5個百分點"},{"start":9811.758,"end":9819.195,"text":"部長 那我們雲端發票使用率在今年度2026年我們有沒有信心可以突破到70%到達七成"},{"start":9822.802,"end":9844.862,"text":"這個部分我們持續的要成長 但常常我們會超過我們的KPI有沒有機會 有沒有機會 有沒有信心努力 努力中就多鼓勵 多一點獎金 然後多一點宣傳然後多一點主訴 說不定就有了我們的成長除了政府之外 其實還有商家"},{"start":9845.302,"end":9864.111,"text":"那當然我們設定目標嘛我們總是每一年都有預定的目標嘛那有沒有機會突破七成有沒有信心突破七成我們朝這個目標來前進努力好我給你們期望只是七成啦部長我相信你有這個能力我相信同仁有這個能力部長"},{"start":9864.731,"end":9881.211,"text":"那除了云端载具之外我刚刚听到您回答宗家兵委员说我们有爱心的电子发布有爱心码没关系你业务房门你不知道有爱心码这件事情但是你过去有看到那个知道有爱心码只是没有家住了"},{"start":9883.053,"end":9892.099,"text":"沒有加進去 你沒有加進去過你沒有加進去但你都知道過去我們去全家7-11都看到有一個桶子過去那個發票塞進去滿滿那個是實體的發票對 實體大家愛心很多雲端發票也可以加進愛心"},{"start":9897.882,"end":9925.043,"text":"現在我們有多一個愛心我們除了捐贈發票給弱勢團體我們過去有在推動條碼有限愛心無限我們有愛心溫度計的網站這個愛心溫度計的網站可以看到我們現在多少張已經累積了多少的愛心就可以看到那個數字愛心捐贈的發票數量部長你知道到今年度就是去年這一年度你知道有多少張比例是多少"},{"start":9925.783,"end":9939.028,"text":"同仁可不可以協助一下因為部長過去對愛心碼他沒有加入他可能沒有關注到這個數字比例是多少 有多少張114年度已經達到1億1300多萬張比例是多少"},{"start":9948.122,"end":9964.019,"text":"那沒有關係 我時間有限部長 如果你過去你也沒有用愛心碼捐過那你就知道更何況你是主辦機關更何況大部分的民眾他就更多人不知道有愛心條碼可以"},{"start":9964.66,"end":9977.061,"text":"捐贈這件事情你同意嗎雖然我們現在雲端啊就是載具的使用很多大概普及率非常高但如果連你都沒有加入過更何況一般的民眾所以"},{"start":9978.069,"end":10002.687,"text":"我要凸显的就是说过去我们看到国人台湾人其实都爱心满满但是我们现在很多的眷目基金会他比较过去长期就收入这个拿到发票收入就减少很多我想你很清楚我在讲什么所以在这些比如说像创世基金会等等好多基金会他们就感觉说"},{"start":10003.767,"end":10027.327,"text":"今年的冬天好难过他们过去收入很多可以用这些收入来照顾很多人但是我们现在好像爱心减少事实上不是国人的爱心减少是很多人不知道有爱心码这件事情所以我们现在载具使用虽然已经普及率高达七成但是我们爱心捐赠码的使用率"},{"start":10028.148,"end":10031.511,"text":"雖然剛剛還有爆出一個數字但使用率事實上是不夠高的部長你同意我的說法嗎報告 愛心碼那個當時是因為我們推動雲端發票那有些社福團體認為我們推動雲端發票以後它能夠收集到的實體發票就少了因為大家都到雲端是 因為現在國人載具的使用變高了我們就推出所謂的愛心碼那這個愛心碼表示是說消費者他有固定的要去捐"},{"start":10057.752,"end":10085.604,"text":"對 但是就是很多過去大家隨手去全家買一個東西就捐一張發票但是很多人沒有設這個愛心碼所以他就不知道說他也可以捐贈對 所以就是說我們現在對於愛心碼的推動這個數字我覺得是不夠普及不夠高的所以也相對的影響到很多慈善團體他們的收入所以可以照顧的人減少很多"},{"start":10086.024,"end":10109.369,"text":"这个部分我们可以再加强的宣导让大家知道包括创世基金会包括创世基金会在113年也就只有4100多万张短少六成所以部长谢谢你刚刚回应我说我们来想办法来推广好那我的重点就要回过头来跟部长讨论就是说我们推广用什么样的方式来推广现在"},{"start":10110.53,"end":10126.586,"text":"很多的志工包括像創世基金會走在街頭 走在市場鼓勵大家捐或者是糖寶寶基金會在寒風當中做餅乾其實財務上是雪上加霜但是只要我們有一個更有力的宣傳方式我相信那個愛心碼"},{"start":10127.947,"end":10144.825,"text":"很快的政府主動推動來做就很多人會知道那我今天會在質詢過程當中我就希望部長可以承諾譬如說比照雲端發票我們也可以有增加愛心捐贈獎這件事情就是說我們不管有多少的"},{"start":10145.606,"end":10165.931,"text":"我們不管有多少的主數我們留一組主數也一兩組主數主數多少我不管就是說你只要捐我我固定比例我從裡面也推出來這不會增加你的預算金額只是主數做了一些我保留一小部分的主數來鼓勵大家捐愛心捐贈"},{"start":10167.851,"end":10191.069,"text":"當然方法很多你是主辦機關你去想但是我覺得比照這幾年很多慈善基金會 缺失基金會他們現在收入短少六成以上連買尿布成人紙尿布的錢都不夠我覺得我們應該有不同的策略跟方法來做部長我們可不可以朝這樣方式去進行人家會想說我們這個部長是愛心部長是媽祖婆部長"},{"start":10192.37,"end":10216.253,"text":"對於一些慈善基金會來說所以在不增加你的預算之下我們有一部分的主數來去做一些調整我們可不可以朝這樣的方向去進行跟委員報告我想我們都鼓勵用發票來做愛心那我相信除了這個之外做愛心的方式有很多捐發票是途徑之一平常也有很多人在捐但是要有方法"},{"start":10216.813,"end":10228.344,"text":"鼓勵大家做很多政策要達到目的要有一定的工具來處理嘛那我剛剛是舉一個例子來鼓勵你們來做組長 那你們還有其他的方式我覺得因為對於現在這個大家捐 從雲端捐發票 愛心嘛其實我們看到其實推的是不夠的你也同意包括連你自己都沒有設定"},{"start":10239.255,"end":10262.379,"text":"所以怎麼樣用什麼樣的方法讓民眾有這個意願推廣它我們要有一定的工具跟手段來處理所以在這邊我要求就是說是不是署長可以朝這樣方式部長可以朝這樣方式去規劃並且一個月之內我們提供出一些你們實質的做法出來我們來評估一下我相信也不是說沒有填愛心碼的人就沒有愛心"},{"start":10262.979,"end":10278.464,"text":"當然 但是要透支她不知道包括妳自己都不知道說可以用愛心碼嗎我知道 但是我有固定我有相關的捐款的方式但是愛心碼可以直接捐連妳都沒有帶頭試用我就會覺得非常可惜"},{"start":10282.125,"end":10301.938,"text":"好部長我還有其另外一個問題要請教您喔就是說剛才林思明招委有問到就是說我們現在在編這個營業稅的部分有固定的有三趴要拿來做這個這個發票的獎金跟相關的一些行政的費用但是因為每一年我們的"},{"start":10303.679,"end":10310.943,"text":"營業稅的收入高高低低所以這幾年包括像去年我們就是營業稅包括有短徵的狀況包括我們的好幾個稅收都有短徵的狀況我們接下來你那個營業稅的部分你怎麼去儲戶因為經濟成長"},{"start":10322.348,"end":10333.16,"text":"並不等於營業稅的收入增加我想你同意我的說法雖然我們這幾年經濟暢旺但是很多我們出口其實還有它可以退稅的所以經濟成長並不等於營業稅增加所以這個會不會在你們在預估那個稅入的時候"},{"start":10340.655,"end":10357.814,"text":"是不是你像今年你又編會比較高你今年編多少我看看你今年編的好像又比較高你又高你今年編的是比較高你去年是你去年短編了嘛去年是短編但你今年編的成長數是高的"},{"start":10358.806,"end":10381.401,"text":"去年114年事實上我們的營業稅的實增數是低於預算數到目前到12月底為止初步的統計是短收了288億是那你今年為什麼會編在115年的時候115年我們在估的時候當然我們會在估的時候會考慮諸多因素最主要是消費的成長你認為今年消費會成長115年我們是根據消費的一個情況來做處理的"},{"start":10389.747,"end":10396.352,"text":"那你去年有沒有預估錯你去年也預估錯因為去年是短掃啊還有出口多的話會要做退款的那個退稅但是你之前還開了記者會信誓旦旦說我們今年我們中獎數會增加我們中獎金額也增加所以那個時候信心滿滿到後來我們發現說去年"},{"start":10414.708,"end":10437.399,"text":"虽然经济成长不错但是因为营业税跟经济成长营业税的所得跟经济成长是两件事情所以不等于经济成长所以委员说明我们编的时候虽然我们后来时增数是短编但是我们在奖金的部分是按预算按数并没有因为短增而受影响所以这个部分是这样的是因为大院删除了我"},{"start":10437.719,"end":10458.76,"text":"有刪減我們的預算所以這個部長這跟大院是因為這是按照稅入你實際的稅入來去做編列我們的稅數有被砍的是被砍的所以就有一些但是會按照實際金額來處理但是你明年像以今年度來說你是預估會成長對今年是成長然後也會增加加開主數對"},{"start":10460.489,"end":10476.046,"text":"那万一如果今年的结果是减少呢那你就再减实际的结果实际的结果我们也不会减少我们的发放奖金如果实增数低于预算案数我们也不会去减少开奖的主数"},{"start":10477.459,"end":10500.269,"text":"因為我們預算案數就已經把它編下去了不會因為實際的結果而有短暫有減少 謝謝部長我還是期待我的愛心發票的部分一個月之內我們提出一些政策跟方法鼓勵大家加入愛心嘛讓我們青年度所有的慈善基金會不再感覺冬天那麼寒冷部長來帶頭來鼓勵譬如說我們多增加一個愛心捐贈獎來抽抽看"},{"start":10505.511,"end":10515.079,"text":"固定的比例來去做一些調整固定的主數來做一些調整 可以嗎我們評估一下 好不好好 謝謝部長謝謝委員好 謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢謝謝 部長請回接下來請顏寬恆委員質詢主席 各位立席觀眾大家好主席有請財政部莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":10539.957,"end":10562.916,"text":"委員長部長早部長我們載具的使用對於民眾來說已經是很普遍的一個狀況我們都是宣導說請民眾善用載具也增列了雲端獎項的這樣子增列很多所以來吸引民眾使用其實成效也還不錯但是大家都有在用但是現在有一個新的問題出現就是說民眾有載具了"},{"start":10564.554,"end":10586.325,"text":"反而是商家沒有不一定是小店家 小攤販有一些就是說像知名的餐飲他們雖然有提供發票但是並沒有提供載具的服務可能是因為店家很忙所以會事先打一堆發票先把它打出來那種像店鋪 像一般的店鋪還是說夜市的攤販就是先把這些發票打出來"},{"start":10590.767,"end":10613.455,"text":"這樣子民眾就沒有辦法索取載具所以這種方法似乎跟我們鼓勵使用載具的初衷背道而馳所以說照理來講說有電子發票不就是代表說該店應該必須要有提供刷載具的服務財政部有沒有針對像這類有發票卻沒有載具的店家做過詳細的調查統計"},{"start":10615.776,"end":10620.938,"text":"我們這個部分持續我們國稅局還有我們所的分局跟計程所都在持續的輔導營業人使用所謂的電子發票如果他是開立電子發票的話他就要具備條碼的掃描機具或是設備如果我們買售的人我出示了我的一個載具的話他就不能拒絕一定要掃描我們載具然後讓他能夠發票可以存到雲端發票"},{"start":10643.667,"end":10648.77,"text":"至於還沒有這些機械設備開立電子發表我們的國稅局都持續在做輔導以及推廣就是說設備障礙的這些店鋪比如說設備還沒有提升還沒到位 是不是這樣子好 那我再問一下就是說部長其實你有沒有去夜市會不會去夜市走一走看一看偶爾會去 對所以應該就會清楚說這是普遍存在的這不是單一個個案這種情況我們剛剛說到這種情況"},{"start":10671.925,"end":10679.215,"text":"我們從數據上面可以看到近5年我們的雲端發票開立張數從109年的24.78億張然後上升到113年已經有55.36億張了"},{"start":10688.328,"end":10710.567,"text":"所以成效算是不錯這個部分行業雲端發票的使用率其實還是偏低的可以說非常低譬如說像法律及會計服務業藥品及醫用化學製造業還有菸草製造業水上運輸業還有廢棄物清理以及資源回收處理業"},{"start":10712.789,"end":10722.599,"text":"這些產業在雲端發票的使用率其實都是個位數所以這個部分請問財政部有沒有注意這樣的問題財政部後續是如何的督導"},{"start":10724.714,"end":10728.935,"text":"您這邊看到的是113年度那也跟委員報告114年度的雲端發票已經達到的63.31億114幾114年的雲端發票已經到63億超過63億那使用率也達到64.55%有大幅的一個提升當然有一些還沒有運用的部分這也是我們未來要努力的目標"},{"start":10748.561,"end":10760.716,"text":"持续的辅导以及宣导我们希望更快速的去运用然后也知道这样运用其实是对税收友好对产业还有一些回溯的一个追查也是有所帮助的"},{"start":10761.417,"end":10787.891,"text":"是 我再提一個就是說像一般消費性一些消費端的視角比如說我們現在常常在有一些自動停車就路邊停車 自動那些機器人無人商店還有自動販賣機這一些它有一些我自己就碰到就是說我要去刷載具沒有 刷不到 感應不到就在那邊等 等紙本的它跑紙本的這個發票出來有些甚至就是就是常常發生這種情況甚至沒有發票也有"},{"start":10788.411,"end":10795.518,"text":"所以它到底是設備障礙就是說它沒有更新還是說因為現在這種情況雖然我們財政部規定112年開始說自動販賣機應該要逐筆開立發票但實際走訪很多我自己碰到了常常停車路邊停車還是停車場裡面那要去取車的時候"},{"start":10807.409,"end":10827.784,"text":"要去刷 有些新的它就會有我們載具的一個感應沒有的話就在那邊只有用按鈕去按然後輸入信用卡然後就是給我們那紙本的這種情況所以能不能 我想既然是要推廣就不是說只是發新聞稿還是這樣子我們應該說針對這些有設備障礙的這些廠商或者業者才能夠的要用什麼樣的作為來督促他們另外"},{"start":10837.251,"end":10863.964,"text":"雖然普及了啦但是老實說因為很多業者還是不願意不是不願意啦實在太忙了實在太忙他們就說第一線還是很多不少很多的業者他沒有跟進沒有跟進不是做不到啦是覺得說太麻煩所以對於這些中小企業小店鋪來講其實多一個系統就多一份人力就多一些這個工作量所以說我想部長就是說希望財政部能夠全面的去稽查"},{"start":10864.824,"end":10877.53,"text":"各個販賣機是否已經符合法規這些另外是不是建立一個網站讓民眾可以來幫助你們一起檢查讓發票載具能夠全面落實這個建議可以嗎"},{"start":10878.75,"end":10903.619,"text":"委員很好 我想我們一定會加強因為其實我們也知道有的時候在停車去停車場停車那個收費機有些可以少那個條碼有些不具有這樣的一個功能那讓你覺得想要少而沒有辦法少那個是很扼腕的一件事情那我想我們的國稅局以及所屬的都會加強去做而且我們也會有計畫那我們希望真正能夠深入到"},{"start":10904.46,"end":10906.102,"text":"商家裡面去然後輔導他然後來運用謝謝部長這一個重要的就是說目前財政部新增就是2月1號要上路的新制就是入境旅客可免稅攜帶兼衛福部"},{"start":10923.323,"end":10949.609,"text":"這個核定通過健康風險評估的指定菸品就是加熱菸我們就直接講加熱菸那上限是200支當然這些相關的規範我們都很支持但是現在一定要跟民眾講清楚因為現在新聞標題新聞標題都是說財政部預告入境吸加熱菸200支免稅然後國稅國界署警告帶回國內最高罰500萬"},{"start":10951.955,"end":10973.815,"text":"200支免稅然後你帶回國內最高罰500萬所以這個民眾老實講第一眼看不懂就會出問題了就會出問題了所以這個財政部大多數認為說財政部已經公告了入境可以攜帶免稅的菸品200支但是另外國際署說要罰500萬又說不行所以這部分"},{"start":10974.736,"end":10988.57,"text":"部長說明之前我是不是可以直接講一個把他就說你這樣子是不是告訴我們說只可以國人回國的時候在台灣的機場免稅店台灣的機場免稅店購買加熱煙瓶"},{"start":10990.832,"end":11016.159,"text":"因為它是經過國建署合格的衛福部認可的然後200支免稅可以帶進來因為如果假設他從日本他從其他國家的機場免稅店買好之後帶到國內他也不知道這個菸品跟台灣通過的菸品是不是一致裡面的成分是不是一致品項是不是一致所以如果他從日本帶加熱菸帶回來可是到海關被攔查說這個"},{"start":11019.82,"end":11036.869,"text":"連內容不符 品項不符就被罰5萬到500萬所以是不是說要這樣說就是說我們的國人回國之後在機場免稅店 台灣的機場免稅店買200支的加熱煙免稅可以帶進來只限台灣的機場免稅店是不是這樣"},{"start":11041.642,"end":11055.907,"text":"不是這樣說因為我們在台灣可以銷售的是要經過衛福部健康風險評估的那機場銷售的呢那機場如果要銷售當然就是說我們台灣的免稅店的機場當然是要販售當然是要經過經過我們的健康風險評估的"},{"start":11060.368,"end":11069.973,"text":"才可以 我們這邊的公告只是就法規的部分因為菸品有很多譬如說有捲菸 有止菸我們只是捲一個免稅的數量部長 這樣問題會複雜化我們只講一個 就加熱菸因為只有台灣這樣子規定我們現在可以200支菸可以帶進來免稅200支 200支菸那是必須要符合台灣我們這個"},{"start":11087.941,"end":11096.544,"text":"健康風險評估管制的這些煙品那只有台灣的機場深層艙機場裡面專賣的這些加熱煙就是符合所以在這邊買沒問題絕對不會觸法是不是這樣要很明確的很清楚的委員您說的沒有錯那還有要特別說明就是說目前國外在銷售的部分都沒有經過台灣的健康風險評估所以你帶進來可能有衛福部這裡面所提到的罰款的問題"},{"start":11117.512,"end":11147.092,"text":"對嘛 所以我說要很明確嘛 不然他他在社交平台說 煙瓶有八款 十款那明明這八款 十款我在日本也看到我在韓國也看到我就直接帶回來 同樣的嘛對不對 可是他帶回來就被罰了你台灣有賣這個產品 賣這個商品那我從國外帶回來 結果就被罰了你說我可以帶兩百支然後呢 我怎麼知道另外的說要罰五萬到五百萬所以我告訴 我跟部長講說我們第一眼就要讓民眾看得懂"},{"start":11147.772,"end":11169.579,"text":"不然的話你會害他們處罰所以這個很重要所以我們今天就是說部長也為我們說明了我們只能夠買國內的通過的菸品然後在台灣的免稅店機場的免稅店購買的加了菸品就是符合規定的不會受罰就這樣子對不對謝謝您說得很清楚對好的謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝袁寬衡委員"},{"start":11178.243,"end":11179.884,"text":"接下來我們請王世堅委員質詢謝謝主席我請財政部莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":11207.731,"end":11228.578,"text":"委員好總部長辛苦了兩個問題第一個問題就是說我們營業稅法有規定那麼我們要提撥營業稅稅收的3%做發票的獎金那其實這幾十年下來這也深受我們民眾們的"},{"start":11229.878,"end":11243.252,"text":"喜愛和配合因為這鼓勵推動了統一發票的使用鼓勵民眾要記得索取發票來減少這種逃漏稅這是非常正面的"},{"start":11244.301,"end":11269.566,"text":"可是我覺得這幾十年下來社會的討論一直跟財政部在捉迷藏因為財政部的意思是說要根據預算數下去提撥這3%那實增數因為在這四五年來我們實增數都增加而且增加的金額都上千億之多那實增數跟"},{"start":11270.946,"end":11298.957,"text":"預算數的這個差額的部分就沒有任何的獎金那當然啦財政部的理由也對財政部是說那時增數必須下一個年度才能知道而且超增也有獎金那短增那怎麼辦呢所以也對啦本席我個人的看法我是認為說那乾脆我們就成立一個基金專戶乾脆就所有"},{"start":11302.716,"end":11307.641,"text":"這個實質的營業稅的收入就在於就按照這個實質的金額撥到一個帳戶裡面根據這個帳戶裡面去提撥3%也就是說"},{"start":11314.099,"end":11339.024,"text":"即便有短徵或者時徵有增加那就在這個戶頭裡面加加減減還有很多是民眾沒有去兌換發票獎金的有的是他忘了兌獎 沒有兌獎有的是根本眼睜睜的看著明明中獎但是因為電子發票他沒有去歸戶"},{"start":11340.484,"end":11357.989,"text":"我沒有歸戶的結果也有很多民眾這樣子領不到痛失獎金而且這個歷史越來越多金額也都滿大的所以我的看法就是說乾脆就成立基金專戶那政府也不用"},{"start":11359.937,"end":11378.429,"text":"虧民間嘛民間也不去占政府的便宜就是該多少那我們有的是下個年度時增金額才出來的那就歸到這個裡面嘛大家稍微慢慢計算嘛不是這樣嗎 你的看法呢"},{"start":11380.306,"end":11403.767,"text":"委員是希望成立一個基金專戶不管是短徵的 超徵的或你沒有來對講的通通到這裡面去然後再試情況加徵款項那我要跟委員報告對於沒有對講的款項其實在我們今年裡面如果前面沒有對講它的獎金累積到下半年的時候我們會增開也就是事實上我們還是會把它增加主數"},{"start":11405.048,"end":11431.497,"text":"讓線面 還是會增加組數我們會把那個沒有來對講的我們會發出去對 也會把它發出去的 是的那包括那個沒有歸戶的電子發票也是也是 因為它等於沒有來領嘛那沒有歸戶的部分我們希望加強說明那尤其是最近也出現一些就是說它沒有到我們那邊歸戶譬如說用那個電子那個所謂的郵箱的部分那個電子郵件的部分去歸戶"},{"start":11433.078,"end":11440.341,"text":"那時增跟預算的差額 那個怎麼辦光這四年 從民國111年到113年我們時增跟預算 你預算這個營業稅這個部分差額 稅收的差額2800億"},{"start":11456.899,"end":11479.097,"text":"10增我們多增了2800億光這2800億的3%的獎金就86億86億之多你看這個怎麼辦所以我剛剛就說我們就乾脆歸到一個戶頭裡面那就以實質收到的下去計算你看法"},{"start":11481.119,"end":11497.031,"text":"那過去幾年有如果超過預算數的部分事實上都進到國庫裡面然後再按財化法的規定然後分配到地方政府都已經有一般稅款那現在我們的稅收的這3%的發票獎金"},{"start":11499.793,"end":11513.761,"text":"是多少民眾大家引領期盼欸就每兩個月就這麼一個小確幸好玩嘛其實倒不是說領了幾千塊幾百塊幸運一點的有上百萬沒錯啊"},{"start":11515.282,"end":11543.237,"text":"可是那些上百萬的就我們從報章雜誌看到新聞看到的這些大額的上百萬獎金的他們都未歸戶結果也是沒辦法領但是你剛剛這講得很好你說那財政部也君子沒有領的你就把它併到後面你有再下去計算也再次再行發放對獎就對了但是我剛剛跟你講的"},{"start":11544.558,"end":11553.388,"text":"時增跟預算這個金額的差額光這四年啊稅收差了2800億的總差額那這2800億的3%就我跟你說的86億啊民眾少拿了86億的發票獎金簡單講就是這樣"},{"start":11564.678,"end":11578.688,"text":"你研究看看好不好時間有限我第二個問題要跟你提到的就是希望說這個產生部回去好好的研擬一下也就是說我們從去年開始"},{"start":11580.222,"end":11600.777,"text":"我們台灣已經進入超高齡社會了我們65歲以上的人口已經佔了總人口數的20%那去年更是我們新生兒子生大概10年前的一半才10萬位而已那像"},{"start":11602.516,"end":11619.871,"text":"我這個年次那一個年次都大概36萬到38萬你們那個比較年輕啦你們單子也大概來到28萬30萬左右我這種年次三十幾萬一個年次所以這個事情很傷腦筋也有預估"},{"start":11621.604,"end":11646.923,"text":"有預估人口專家預估就是說我們在2045年我們國家到2045年我們會跌破2000萬人口那到了2070年我們台灣大概剩下1500萬人口我為什麼跟你說這個呢我的意思就是說因為我們的稅收大部分我們著重在"},{"start":11648.563,"end":11666.262,"text":"這個所得稅啦那因為人口短少勞動人口也減少啦所以這一部分我們的稅收很可能如果我們沒有趕快去預作準備的話這個部分到了某一個關節點我們會大幅的下滑"},{"start":11667.023,"end":11696.307,"text":"所以我希望說我們財政部能夠針對人口急劇減少人口結構變遷的這個所導致的財政風險要下去做評估也就是說我們針對稅制結構我們去做中長期的模擬中長期模擬說大概到哪一年會怎麼樣到哪一年會怎樣這個部分我不曉得你們有沒有做"},{"start":11700.219,"end":11717.188,"text":"謝謝委員的提示那對於這個人口的一個減少然後對於稅制整個的結構一定會有影響那目前財政部也已經委託在做一個研究對這個部分有委員做研究那什麼時候會有一個初步的研究的"},{"start":11718.889,"end":11733.427,"text":"是今年會今年會有這個結果研究報告會出來我簡單講在我們社會大家普遍認為資本家靠資本所得地主們靠這個"},{"start":11735.438,"end":11763.839,"text":"房屋房產閒置空屋空地所得這一些炒作土地所得等等這一些他們負擔整個社會應有的稅的部分他們負擔的過低我們都把整個國家社會需求所需要的稅收的負擔都是給了我們所有的勞動人口以這一些大家靠辛苦的勞動"},{"start":11765.14,"end":11789.25,"text":"收入來去支付國家的需要其實這是非常不公平的所以如果我們勞動人口減少那所得稅這一部分的減少的話是不是我們應該加重資本所得比方說那加重這個空屋稅 閒置空屋這些一方面又可以讓屋盡其用可以有打房的作用"},{"start":11790.43,"end":11798.679,"text":"二方面也才達到稅制的公平而且我們也才能實收的稅不至於短少過快"},{"start":11799.619,"end":11811.964,"text":"好不好是是謝謝委員的指教這部分我希望你們委外研究的成果的時候你也複製我一聲讓我看一下這個研究的報告是怎麼樣好不好好好謝謝委員好謝謝王世堅委員部長請回OK好謝謝接下來請陳玉珍委員質詢"},{"start":11825.883,"end":11834.015,"text":"謝謝主席 請這個關務署 關務署副署長有要工 請副署長 副署長蘇副署長 請來"},{"start":11842.703,"end":11866.936,"text":"副部長你好金門從民國98年就規劃為免稅島這是行政院核定的金門中長期經濟發展的規劃然後用境內關外的方向 規劃方向三面二腿離島建設條例的第10條跟第10至1條裡頭有對於免稅島的一些規劃就在當地銷售這些相關的貨物 勞務 交付"},{"start":11870.018,"end":11880.743,"text":"當地銷售並交付使用的貨物或當地提供制造物免徵營業稅嘛這個立法院條例有嘛已經很多年了87年到現在二三十年了那您看到那雖然從87年就開始免營業稅但是金門90%以上貨物都是從台灣進口從台灣進到金門來"},{"start":11888.087,"end":11889.87,"text":"除了印費以外從台灣進口的貨物我說台灣就台灣島進口的貨物所課徵的5%的營業稅都直接轉嫁給消費者民眾反而享受不到免徵營業稅的優待"},{"start":11901.721,"end":11925.462,"text":"我們有正式的發函詢問財政部的一些說法財政部上次以前回覆本席有說離島地區銷售適用零稅率恐會降低當地產業競爭力現在是免稅了我們因為業者我們這個地方的商會有提出來說是不是把它改成零稅率財政部有回覆本席說"},{"start":11926.903,"end":11943.988,"text":"這個可能還有牽扯到複稅署 複稅署有說了兩個第一個是如果用零稅率會降低是用零稅率會降低當地的產業競爭力然後另外一個還可能會讓台灣島的營業人到離島去設立稅籍反而來套取零稅率的利益這個是複稅署回答的"},{"start":11955.462,"end":11974.533,"text":"現在我們有一些突破點就是對促進離島產業發展的部分90%的金門的貨物都是從台灣進口營業稅改成零稅率事實上對在地的產業衝擊影響很小反而對90%從台灣進口到金門的商家可以享有進向免稅的優惠這樣才能實質的"},{"start":11977.094,"end":11991.759,"text":"反映在當地的消費上這個我們已經提過很多次您之前有說有一些可能稅的一些損失但是事實上因為現在也是現在是免稅如果把它改成零稅率事實上衝擊這個稅損幾乎是沒有的或是很小的"},{"start":11992.719,"end":12010.748,"text":"那所以那個副會主任的這個看法這已經講很多次了因為我們已經如果說你們再沒有具體的措施我們就自己來修這個離島建設條例這跟您講過很多次了報告委員您反應很厲害因為從我們課稅的角度來講中華民國當然包含金門跟馬祖這些離島"},{"start":12011.889,"end":12018.017,"text":"所以在中華民國境內現在已經是免稅了現在就已經實施免營業稅了免營業稅只有在當地的當地的家族是免業稅的但是智商最基本的商家幫助就沒有因為所有東西都從台灣進來的但是我們鼓勵的是說所以淨香噴就沒有辦法免"},{"start":12029.892,"end":12055.72,"text":"我跟委員報告例如我舉個例子我們要鼓勵民眾到金門消費金門住宿金門旅遊他如果是消費的是跟金門當地那貨物的部分呢但是貨物的話基本上如果在當地消費我給他免業稅對不對但是進來的時候那一段還是要收沒有那一段不用講就是說進來的時候進口到金門台灣進口到金門這段還是要收啊"},{"start":12057.04,"end":12084.866,"text":"并没有减这个我们讨论很多次了因为我们加值税的概念就是它的加值来测税我的意思是说如果把免营业税改成零税率这个部分来讲那就等于在台湾加值也都免税了就是改成零税率因为这个细项我们讨论过很多次了把它改成零税率的话事实上对这个整个税损来讲也没有什么改变没有什么很大的影响你可以整个再算一下对整个你们整个负税署的整个国家这个税来讲"},{"start":12085.586,"end":12101.459,"text":"根本沒有什麼很大的差別你是不是可以再具體算一下因為現在營業稅根據財政收支劃反修正之後其實大部分都是地方稅了那變成說去免了之後會變成其他的地方那好 那這樣子你就更不用擔心那就是我們自己來承擔這會變稅收分配的問題對 沒關係那就是說"},{"start":12105.862,"end":12125.098,"text":"如果說這個你說到時候都會變成是地方的損失好不好它分配它會有不同的分配因為我們才華有修過以後那這個部分應該你們就要比較樂觀其成應該比較尊重當地的想法我們要遵守的是一定的因為這個稅損最後是地方政府地方的縣市政府來吸收那地方的產業的反應"},{"start":12126.859,"end":12134.745,"text":"那這樣子這一塊如果我們修成這樣子你們應該就比較對中央根本沒什麼影響基門縣自己來吸收對當地的產業才有幫助因為退它不是從它是等於退本島的稅它不是退基門當地的稅"},{"start":12142.91,"end":12147.873,"text":"原來的那個政策對金門就沒有實際幫助沒關係你再研究一下因為這個現在財化改變我可以再研究你再研究一下好嗎這個我跟你討論過很多次現在是把貶改成零稅率地方的產業覺得這樣子有幫助你研究一下來 下一個我們講那個"},{"start":12159.439,"end":12173.646,"text":"離島自貿區民進黨都說這個會變成稀產地的破口那是關務署的事了請問現在的自貿港很多地方都有自貿港基隆 台北 蘇澳 桃園 台中 安平都有這監管單位是不是你們關務署"},{"start":12175.808,"end":12192.345,"text":"報告委員是有關如果是貨物的一個監管所以自貿區這些都是你們在管的嗎是是嗎那如果金門設這個自貿區就是自貿港的話是不是你們就會在金門是不是就會變成息產地破口意思說你們財政部公務署在金門就不會把關是不是"},{"start":12193.426,"end":12211.25,"text":"跟委員報告就是如果說這邊在離島有設置這個所謂的自貿區的話那當然主管機關如果已經有同意的話我們海關針對我們所負責的部分我們會配合研議照原來的標準去把關嘛對不對我們會配合來研議你們會特別放水嗎在金門地區依照我們的職責我們會配合研議相關的這個防災"},{"start":12217.811,"end":12235.531,"text":"如果設立的話你們會對金門地區的進來的貨物特別放水讓他就可以隨便的去稀產地啊什麼隨便這樣亂進亂出海關還是會依照我們的職責你們還會遵守原來法令造牆執行那為什麼那所以我們提這個芝麻港這個怎麼會變成稀產地的破口"},{"start":12236.272,"end":12245.183,"text":"你又不會對金門特別正一隻眼 閉一隻眼或是金門進來的貨物可以隨便的不經過海關的眼皮紙下就可以隨便放行那為什麼在金門社就會有這個問題那這個當然不是你回答的但是來"},{"start":12251.242,"end":12279.017,"text":"這個我們立法經濟條例要修這個有關自貿區這個部分如果三讀通過我會想請您去評估一下如果我們這個條例三讀通過以後比照現在在各個自貿區所偵測的一些監管設備人力源的總共需要多少要多好設備要多多少人才可以讓你們達到完全監管的這個監管完全監管這個效果請您跟我們提出一個評估報告好嗎可以嗎人力啊物力啊到底需要多少先把這個地方管好嘛"},{"start":12280.114,"end":12289.316,"text":"不要讓它變成稀產地的地方嘛你可以幫我們做一個評估嗎如果我們修正通過以後啦現在已經進步了如果修正通過以後你們應該要增加人力物力嘛需要多久時間可以評估出來需求我們盡量來評估啦但是因為現在也不確定說到底我跟你講我如果立法院就刪除通過你要做一點評估嘛"},{"start":12307.578,"end":12331.831,"text":"是不是 因為你們可能就需要更多的人 更多的對不對 設備啊 是不要讓金門背上這種汙名啊海關要好好的執行啊 是吧可以 多久可以評估給我現在是1月 2月啦3月底前給我可以嗎2月有過年 放假3月底前給我 是付稅水也是一樣好不好那個免稅率的部分 一個月"},{"start":12334.082,"end":12343.066,"text":"沒有 三月底前給我就好了二月過年嘛 三月嘛三月底嘛 可以喔好 那主計總署請時間等一下 主計請主計總署 蔡副主委長那兩位可以回座了這個副主計長 這個你們沒有依法行政"},{"start":12361.028,"end":12380.542,"text":"這個財力分析表裡頭你們下面的標註是說各職教師會縣市政府的自有財源比率稅數以最近三個年度的決算審定數計算稅率以最近三個年度決算審定數加計財政收支方法修正透中央統籌分配稅款的影響數計算"},{"start":12382.483,"end":12404.011,"text":"這個是明文規定的第四條補助辦法第四條110年8月29日也有規定說是用三年分歸五級每三年檢討一次自由財產比率是什麼意思這個都明文規定了如果按照你們辦法這三年來檢討一次的話就沒有所謂什麼財政收支方法修正後中央統籌分配稅款的影響數"},{"start":12406.704,"end":12425.66,"text":"你們幹嘛推翻自己剛剛修訂的辦法然後任意加上這些什麼中央統籌分配稅款影響數你知道我在說什麼嗎你知道我在說什麼你們為什麼不依法行政任意的想把哪個縣市政府改成第幾級就第幾級我們金門縣本來第三級把我們改到第二級你們沒有依法行政主席單位最應該依法行政對不對"},{"start":12428.323,"end":12437.391,"text":"為什麼報告陳委員那個條文去年8月給縣市條文後面有說明去年114年8月29號有修訂對不對"},{"start":12441.383,"end":12467.764,"text":"那你們現在加計這個同收稅款的這個影響數就是把如果一級譬如像這種離島像離島這種地方比較窮的地方然後拿到突然拿到比較多的救濟這種稅款然後就拿來跟富人富人區像台北市這種地方相提並論然後變相處罰我們那讓高雄啊台南啊原來這個才導致高雄台南到第四五級進門台東變成一二級這樣有合理嗎"},{"start":12468.624,"end":12476.667,"text":"這個是不合理的啊你們最近修訂這個分級是完全不合理啊沒有依法行政啊帶頭違法怎麼辦勒"},{"start":12483.359,"end":12504.689,"text":"包委員 沒有違法啦沒有違法 沒有依法行政你的辦法修訂是這樣子嘛 對不對然後原來的規定也有啊是 那個辦法喔你可以 沒關係喔 因為我時間到了請你給我一個報告你告訴我說為什麼金門你這樣給我們亂改好的好的好嗎好 沒問題請提出書面報告 是是是 好嗎好 謝謝好謝謝陳醫生 曾委員的質詢 謝謝接下來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":12521.349,"end":12523.911,"text":"要請部長請莊部長委員好部長好我們針對於統一發票這個給獎的辦法第16條裡頭規定統一發票中獎資獎金各項宣傳資料調查及稽查的這個費用"},{"start":12548.829,"end":12559.72,"text":"檢舉之獎金統一發票發售及專責單位所需的經費由全年營業稅收入總額中提出3%以之因應對不對"},{"start":12565.107,"end":12591.625,"text":"是的依照我们第16条的规定但是我们看到从110年到113年营业税10增数年都大幅的超过预算数财政部你都是以预算数的3%来编列奖金对于超增的部分并没有补题本期统计了4年累计"},{"start":12592.245,"end":12608.076,"text":"超额高达86亿元为什么没有提呢请做说明我们是根据营业税法里面的规定也就是说它的统一发票给奖的经费是由全年营业税收入总额中"},{"start":12608.696,"end":12618.529,"text":"提出3%那所謂全年營業稅收入那麼我們在編列這個要發獎金的經費的時候邊稅出預算那我們就用稅入預算裡面的營業稅的全國總全國營業稅總收入的預算案數的3%來編列"},{"start":12625.979,"end":12629.16,"text":"這個是總預算數但是你實際上你是超徵你4年超徵了86億營業稅的收入有超過預算數也有比預算數來得少像114年到12月底我們的出租就少了200多億"},{"start":12642.925,"end":12658.656,"text":"所以我們是用預算案數來編那麼你的實徵數事實上要到年底才知道然後如果你到年底才會知道所以我在編這個稅出預算的時候我並不知道沒有辦法掌握到真正的一個實徵數你不知道所以本席依照我們的法律的規定統一發票給獎辦法第16條規定就是你這一個年度你的這個營業稅額總稅額的這個"},{"start":12673.105,"end":12683.378,"text":"3%嘛那你既然也知道到年底你就會知道有超徵多少那你要把它補啊你為什麼不補呢那不然你這個4年的86億那3%你拿去做什麼"},{"start":12688.234,"end":12695.059,"text":"第一個收入增加以後當然是進公庫跟委員報告這個部分我們會按營業稅的收入會按財化法的規定撥歸地方政府撥歸地方政府那部分是歸中央那財化法修正以後扣掉3%的獎金1.5%的積增經費全部都到地方政府去了我沒有拿去做什麼我也不能拿去做什麼部長"},{"start":12714.293,"end":12731.188,"text":"我们针对条文第16条来讨论嘛这个不是你播到哪里的问题嘛是法本身的精髓嘛所以本席要请教如果你以会计技巧来消化超增要不要检讨"},{"start":12732.54,"end":12757.625,"text":"用会计技巧我们是依法行政除了您刚刚讲的办法之外在营业税法里面是这样规定它的经费是有全年营业税收入总额中3%来提利所以我在编税入跟税出的时候我就用这样一起编下去的这个不是说你编而是你在执行的时候你明明有超增这个本席认为违背了制度的原意"},{"start":12758.425,"end":12773.573,"text":"所以部長本席具體建議你必須要將超徵的部分要補題這個對社會大眾的小確幸才不會抹掉了對不對依法十六條的精髓就是如此對不對 你要把它補足這個是人民的小確幸"},{"start":12781.263,"end":12806.279,"text":"需要一個均衡那如果超過的要補足那減少的部分那我們要收回應該不可能我想委員也不希望是這樣那我覺得認為我們歷年來都是用這樣的一個在執行所以就是因為以往沒有超增所以就是因為以往沒有超增但是我們累積看了有這麼多的超增所以必須要去檢討超增的部分應該要補足你去檢討 好不好"},{"start":12808.88,"end":12813.223,"text":"對不對接下來本席要請教我們現在1月13號公布的2025年總稅收是3.7515兆那比這個預算數是短增了505億"},{"start":12825.089,"end":12840.299,"text":"那在这样的一个情况之下你主要我们看到是因为美国对等关税的冲击还有房市信用管制压制交易的这些因素那么所以但是我们在其中可以看到的正交税"},{"start":12841.279,"end":12858.208,"text":"證交稅是因為股市創新高了 成交量放大然後你達到了全年是2928億 這個部分那也創歷史新高 也就是年增了48億那顯示在我們的整個結構裡頭這個仰賴在股市的表現"},{"start":12863.231,"end":12883.998,"text":"是非常的重在你公布的2025年的這個部分所以財政穩定性它是不是足夠穩定在這樣子的一個樣態裡頭所以請教部長2025年首度的短徵同時在稅收方面集中在證交稅的這個樣態那麼你們認為這個有沒有稅收的一個結構風險請做說明"},{"start":12891.3,"end":12910.652,"text":"跟委員報告在我們的稅收裡面正交稅其實佔的比例並不高他大概只有2000多億那佔的最大宗的是營所稅跟中所稅是最大的一個大宗雖然您看到的是數字有短生那至於114年的稅收我們根據到"},{"start":12912.633,"end":12920.276,"text":"12月底初估是短收全國短收5051但是在1月1號到15號還有個整理期會入帳所以我們會認為在全國數的部分今年會短收大概200億上下還是短收啊達成預算數的99.4%達成99.4%那也跟委員報告在中央的部分我們大概達成率如果加上整理期的話可以達到98.9%"},{"start":12941.545,"end":12969.479,"text":"那差距數大概是300億上下那也跟委員報告這其中因為有美國對等關稅我們有實施所謂的延分期所以大概有500多億本來應該是要在114年收起的但是因為讓我們的所謂的營業人受到衝擊的他可以申請延分期大概有500多億會延後到114年以後收入所以主要是這個原因如果沒有這個原因其實今年是跟我們的預算數幾乎是齊平"},{"start":12970.7,"end":12987.183,"text":"所以對於美國對等關稅的一個衝擊也就是本期非常的重視我們必須務必顧我們的產業這是非常的重要一定要去均衡我們整個稅收的向下 對不對好 謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊瑩委員 謝謝接下來請謝伊鳳委員質詢"},{"start":13003.834,"end":13007.915,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要請莊部長好 請莊部長快下課了 大家要備心一帶不要太興奮好 謝謝莊部長我想就"},{"start":13024.008,"end":13042.592,"text":"明年度的稅收大家都會有疑慮會不會受到影響有短徵的這樣子的情況那對於明年的景氣以及我們的稅負的這個預估你們是如何的"},{"start":13044.397,"end":13059.748,"text":"委員我們115年115年的稅客收入的一個還有我們的稅務的預算數大院到目前並沒有審查所以並沒有所謂的預算數沒有預算數所以並沒有審查那至於明年的一個經濟成長那祖宗已經初估的是3.54%115年3.54%但是可以看出來"},{"start":13067.453,"end":13082.162,"text":"因為我們對等關稅的一個談判結果把不確定性降低而且跟我們競爭的對手國裡面我們都佔了齊平甚至比他們更好所以你認為明年的稅收不會低於今年您講116年還是115年"},{"start":13086.425,"end":13088.245,"text":"115年115年這個部分我們當然我們目前來說還沒有我們在估的時候我們在估的時間的時候對等關稅的談判並沒有確定所以我們是以當時的那個情況來估那那個整個預算案數還在大院這邊還沒有審議"},{"start":13105.57,"end":13121.653,"text":"所以你不要而且再還有一點就是說因為才化法的修正所以這個部分中央要撥到地方要比114年增加4400多億這樣的經費那所以中央的稅收一定會比114年來的低還有"},{"start":13122.894,"end":13147.228,"text":"當然我們知道對等關稅簽訂最重要的前提就是赴美投資嘛 對不對那赴美投資台積電如果到美國設廠我想請問他未來稅是繳在美國還是繳在台灣如果他當然就涉及到他是用什麼樣子的方式他在美國設廠是分公司還是子公司"},{"start":13148.823,"end":13175.978,"text":"那如果已分公司的時候他是怎麼樣繳稅是繳在美國還是繳在台灣他目前來說美國的話他是如果子公司的話他是屬於美國居住者他就根據美國的稅法來課稅但是他子公司的營業的利潤會如果會課回到回饋到他的母公司的話那就到母公司這邊來再繳繳那個所謂的營利事業所得稅"},{"start":13176.698,"end":13191.767,"text":"那分公司的話呢分公司回歸併寄到我們的如果分公司他是不是到美國繳納以後他還要折抵扣抵台灣的相關的是不是可以是的我想這個部分是不是聽署長來說明一下好不好"},{"start":13193.664,"end":13216.364,"text":"報告委員如果他在美國設立的是分公司的話在當地分公司的營運在當地是要繳稅然後他同時要併計我們台灣的索德萊克稅當然他在美國繳稅是可以拿來扣抵的就是拿回來台灣扣抵是不是扣抵台灣繳稅但一般我們現在跨境投資當中都用子公司的形態去進行因為他法律關係跟責任要去做切割"},{"start":13217.105,"end":13236.702,"text":"所以他可能就會用子公司的方式去進行所以如果去用子公司的情況他就是在美國繳完稅然後他回台灣就是他的盈餘然後回到台灣才在台灣繳稅是不是相關這樣子那員工呢"},{"start":13237.703,"end":13255.164,"text":"員工的話如果他是派到美國去直接在美國工作那他的所得就是美國來源所得他也要在當地繳稅這是國際上的一個慣例就是說你所得從哪邊來就要在當地繳稅所以他員工如果派到美國廠去當地工作他在美國繳稅"},{"start":13256.485,"end":13277.904,"text":"那如果是來來回回呢來來回回要看他是受雇在哪裡就是說看他受雇在台灣然後如果去美國協助相關的如果他受雇在台灣是要在台灣繳稅的那他派到美國去是屬於他在美國的對不起台灣的公司派他去為美國的子公司服務他如果是美國的公司"},{"start":13278.424,"end":13299.383,"text":"他如果是設在美國的公司裡面認定成美國的公司的員工子公司的員工那他當然就是在美國繳稅是不是那如果他認定是台灣公司的員工那應該是在台灣繳稅嘛是不是應該在台灣那這還涉及到一個部分就是台美租稅協定怎麼樣子什麼時候會簽訂那雙重課稅的部分勒"},{"start":13304.161,"end":13310.167,"text":"跟委員報告台美的租稅協定ADTA目前在參院眾院已經通過目前在參議院那不管是美國的企業或是我們台灣的企業以及人民都希望能夠盡速的通過然後能夠簽訂避免雙重課稅"},{"start":13321.519,"end":13338.644,"text":"那我们也希望尽快那我想从媒体也看到昨天美台商会去拜会行政院然后美台商会昨天也拜会财政部我们都对这个议题提出来那他们也表达美国这个部分也在积极的推进那我们都希望能够尽快的可以签署"},{"start":13339.244,"end":13358.932,"text":"那所以沒有確定的日期因為涉及在美國的國會在參院所以只要通過了就是美國國會參院通過以後那川普總統簽署以後那我們雙方美國跟台灣我們會交換一個國際文書那雙方進行國內的生效完成以後就可以實施了好謝謝謝謝好謝謝謝伊鳳委員"},{"start":13365.02,"end":13371.602,"text":"接下來請葉元芝委員葉元芝委員葉元芝委員不在請蔡易瑜委員質詢好謝謝主席那我們是不是有請財政部以及稅務部長還有宋署長委員好"},{"start":13392.983,"end":13407.416,"text":"部長 因為台灣現在已經都步入了高齡化的一個社會基本上所以有很多老人家他在做他老年生活的一些財產規劃的時候"},{"start":13409.198,"end":13426.848,"text":"他们会去思考一件就是用所谓的安养信托那这安养信托我们看到从109年的时候大概是有3万多人到了113年已经增加到了19万5千人那信托的财产也从435亿已经增加到了1579亿"},{"start":13428.729,"end":13443.447,"text":"那所謂安養信託又有所謂兩種一個是以防養老一個是留防養老也就是一個是用先去做銀行的抵押貸款貸款出來把它信託那或者是直接房子信託給第三方單位然後讓第三方單位來執行然後再把"},{"start":13448.533,"end":13462.867,"text":"这个执行的收益给受益者也就是这一个长辈让他做他生活上的一些费用那基本上这个两个方向很好但是我们最近也注意到了一些一些新闻就是说基本上"},{"start":13464.108,"end":13467.869,"text":"我們看到說如果是自然人自然人我如果是出租不動產的話我就沒有必要再繳5%的營業稅因為我自然人我出租不動產我就是所得稅所以它就是所得稅的概念但是在於我剛剛講的信託業者我們信託給信託業者的時候因為他是一個營業法人信託的是一個營業法人"},{"start":13489.935,"end":13514.229,"text":"所以這一個姓坡的人他必須先扣5%的營業稅這是第一個第二個就是說他們除了營業稅以外他們在認定所得稅的時候如果是一般的出租把它出租給別人的話他有一個可以認列43%是他的必要開銷57%的部分才是他的一個淨所得但是在"},{"start":13515.669,"end":13530.177,"text":"在他選擇用信託的時候卻是百分之百他那一筆收益都必須要實質課稅所以這變得說讓很多人在選擇信託的時候他反而這中間被課的稅比他直接把他不動產"},{"start":13531.278,"end":13549.563,"text":"出租給別人是相對還要比較負擔比較多的一個稅這個我認為不公平第二個 站在現在我們很擔心老人家他的財產被詐騙所以他選擇信託相對是安全的如果在這樣的考量之下這個稅賦上是不是有調整的空間讓他們選擇信託跟選擇出租可以讓他的稅率可以趨於一致"},{"start":13559.793,"end":13563.765,"text":"这个部分涉及到激增的事务是不是请署长来跟委员说明好 请署长回应"},{"start":13565.41,"end":13593.88,"text":"報告委員委員提到的是屬於信託存續當中如果他房子出租的時候要繳營業稅的問題那基本上因為我們講的這個受託因為他是營業人那根據營業稅法規定你就是屬於營業行為那就是要課營業稅但他這個營業稅如果他沒有拿去扣抵或什麼他是可以當作信託財產收入的減相所以他的那個要課稅的所得就會變少這是第一點"},{"start":13594.86,"end":13621.35,"text":"第二點就是說如果受託人他去出租財產因為依照稅法規定他是要設帳跟保存憑證所以他的收入是可以減掉實際的成本費用通常如果實際成本費用可能算出來結果會超過委員剛才所講自然人所使用的43%的費用率的時候他反而是有利的所以這實際上要看他個案到底他的成本費用的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":13622.881,"end":13643.707,"text":"对那个是在设定费用的时候但是我要强调的就是说虽然他是一个他是营业法人所以他去出租给别人要负担这笔营业费对不对要负担这笔营业费但是终究他整个的信托利益是要回到这一个信托人"},{"start":13644.527,"end":13666.861,"text":"那信托人就因为被扣了这5%他相对他未来领到的意义也是会少了这一段所以我是意思是说在这个精算的结果之下实际上我去选择信托的反而会因为这中间的税负负担然后让他得到的利益比他实际出租还要少"},{"start":13667.902,"end":13687.242,"text":"有这样的一个状况我了解委员的意思但是实际上到底他自己管理那个财产还是信托给受托人去管理财产哪一边的利益会比较大是要看他实际的状况其实不见得实际状况有很多不见得但是在课税上是有一点是数学问题"},{"start":13687.802,"end":13699.917,"text":"对 就像我刚刚在数学问题上看起来他是相对拿到的反而比较少我鼓励他去做信托的这个选择结果他拿到的收益反而少"},{"start":13701.577,"end":13726.045,"text":"这是某些假设的情况之下会出现像委员的状况对 就是在我刚刚设定的一个命题上他会有这样的状况我觉得你们回去研究一下因为我们最终还是希望说我这个老人家我把财产拿出来信托那我可以收到的利益是相对是可以比较好一点让他可以有更有右运去选择好不好那我是不是再有请这一个国产署曾署长请曾署长"},{"start":13733.258,"end":13755.459,"text":"委員好署長是署長事實上你也知道事實上有很多國有土地它可能涉及到在過去的時候他們就是上面已經有建物而且它很多是82721之前的話我們就會把它視為說它是一個寄存的一個事實那我們當然就讓它可以繼續使用"},{"start":13755.959,"end":13782.108,"text":"但是事實上署長處理過很多城市案件都是在他有沒有82年之前有這個爭議有一些爭議他可能說他憑證不存在他沒有辦法去具體舉證然後就面臨到了說他可能要必須要拆屋還地國產署這個狀況是很多你們也面對監察院的壓力這個我都懂但是我要跟署長說我還是有遇到一些個案"},{"start":13783.248,"end":13808.869,"text":"他那間房子的所有人就是一個老人家就是一個老人家他一旦這個房子被拆屋還地了他沒有地方住那甚至有的是一堆阿嬤他不敢讓他沒錢他怕讓他沒錢他要面對接下來的訴訟跟拆屋還地的話他怕他身體在生病他怕他身體會受不了"},{"start":13810.049,"end":13835.02,"text":"所以我是覺得說能不能說我們在面對因為如果我們認為說他是有違法的使用你們事實上還是有收相當於使用補償金還是有在收這筆錢那如果他確實就是一個老人已經他只是在那裡就唯一住的一個地方你們在選擇訴訟或最後強制執行的時候是不是能夠有更多的這個"},{"start":13837.234,"end":13853.846,"text":"法理情裡面還是有這個情在啦我遇到的有些狀況真的我也很難過啊因為我知道說站在法律面他沒辦法舉證他是82年前舊有的房子那他當然要面對訴訟要面對這些但是他就把那好大而已啊"},{"start":13855.49,"end":13882.02,"text":"這樣子我簡單回答委員第一個如果真的確實有這個問題的話只要他主張氏族的居住權因為這是國際公約台灣也有簽氏族的居住權也就是說他跟他的直系親屬沒有其他可以居住的地點的話我們可以就不執行相關的債務繁地第二個當然如果"},{"start":13882.8,"end":13910.147,"text":"有一些比較特殊的情況之下那也不是社會大眾所關注的部分那這個部分我覺得我們可以考量署長我跟你說一個很殘酷的事實像我接觸到的委員個案的問題我有跟他對我沒有要講個案但是所以我沒有要具體是說但是你也知道台灣人有一個習性女孩子嫁出去算人家的女孩子有財產"},{"start":13912.248,"end":13923.121,"text":"有沒有 女孩子有不懂善 有錯那一個他就沒辦法去主張說他是沒有地方可以安置的"},{"start":13924.703,"end":13930.288,"text":"還有很多跟民間的許署規定都綜合在一起看我們會覺得不敢進戶在執行這些事情的時候如果再多一點人性的考量上我們還是有持續收使用補償費"},{"start":13947.003,"end":13973.161,"text":"委員這個部分我們可以來跟審計監察單位再溝通一下因為說實在的國財署也不太願意拆家的房子我知道你們基層的人也都很痛苦這個我都知道但是他們最後跟我的答案就是我們有面對監察院的壓力沒有錯因為我們如果不執行的話所以我在在你們拜託的時候我也很辛苦我知道你們也是面對壓力但是我覺得很多狀況"},{"start":13974.302,"end":13995.943,"text":"我想透過這個質詢也讓大家知道你也知道我的質詢拿去給檢察院看真的有很多 我覺得真的很多人我請我同事研究一下對於這一種有一些要拆屋還地的部分能不能有一些特殊的狀況之下可以暫緩因為說實在有的老人家你要叫他搬一個地方"},{"start":13998.726,"end":14020.712,"text":"看断罐石 他就在那边对吗叫他拔去 他不见得去的时候搞不好就郁郁寡欢或甚至身体就会出现问题其实我们也会用同理心我在跟同仁这边我们在研究在审计监察单位可以接受或法律上面可以有一些授权的时候我们来做一些调整"},{"start":14021.112,"end":14032.056,"text":"我想委員這個為民眾發聲我們了解你今天這個答覆我聽了很感動 大家謝謝感謝謝謝委員謝謝蔡英文委員也謝謝我想我先做一下宣告因為剛才我們好幾位委員對於這個"},{"start":14047.528,"end":14072.744,"text":"營業稅法58條有相關的一個看法所以我先做一下宣告請財政部就加值型及非加值型營業稅法第58條因以預算數或是時增數為計算基準所涉及之影響及修法評估在3月底前提出書面報告"},{"start":14073.844,"end":14077.846,"text":"給我們財政委員會及各委員來參考有沒有問題就研擬一下相關的一個修法的一個評估以及他所涉及的影響好謝謝我們今日登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢本次會議做如下決議"},{"start":14098.428,"end":14122.308,"text":"報告局選答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請求補充資訊請財政部於一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理本次會議議事錄授權召委核定我們開會就到這裡散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"167298","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167298","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d60b7a3f9a4c0fcab11b3bb87f1b5dc7aa4e13b340c61ef173bca61c2a45653685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:14:18 - 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謝謝主席那我們是不是有請財政部以及稅務署部長跟署長還有宋署長委員好部長那因為台灣現在已經都步入了這個高齡化的一個社會那基本上所以有很多老人家他在做他老年生活的一些財產規劃的時候"},{"start":33.243,"end":55.583,"text":"他們會去思考一件就是用所謂的安養信託那這安養信託我們看到從一百零九年的時候大概是有三萬多人到了一百一十三年已經增加到了十九萬五千人那信託的財產也從四百三十五億已經增加到了一千五百七十九億那所謂安養信託又有所謂兩種一個是以防養老一個是留防養老也就是一個是"},{"start":59.927,"end":86.912,"text":"用先去做银行的抵押贷款贷款出来把它信托那或者是直接房子信托给第三方单位然后让第三方单位来执行后然后再把这个执行的收益给受益者也就是这一个长辈让他做他生活上的一些费用那基本上这个两个方向很好但是我们最近也注意到了一些新闻就是说基本上"},{"start":88.172,"end":113.519,"text":"我们看到说如果是自然人自然人我如果是出租不动产的话我就没有必要再缴5%的营业税因为我自然人我出租不动产我就是所得税所以它是所得税的概念但是在于我刚刚讲的信托业者我们信托给这一个信托业者的时候因为他是一个营业法人信托的是一个营业法人"},{"start":113.979,"end":138.273,"text":"所以這一個信託的人他必須先扣5%的營業稅這是第一個第二個就是說他們除了營業稅以外他們在認定所得稅的時候如果是一般的出租把它出租給別人的話他有一個可以認列43%是他的必要開銷57%的部分才是他的一個淨所得但是在"},{"start":139.714,"end":154.224,"text":"在他選擇用信託的時候卻是百分之百他那一筆收益都必須要實質課稅所以這變得說讓很多人在選擇信託的時候他反而這中間被課的稅比他直接把他不動產"},{"start":155.325,"end":169.088,"text":"出租給別人是相對還要比較負擔比較多的一個稅這個我認為不公平第二個 站在現在我們很擔心老人家他的財產被詐騙所以他選擇信託相對是安全的那如果在這樣的考量之下這個稅賦上是不是有調整的空間呢讓他們選擇信託跟選擇出租可以讓他的稅率可以趨於一致"},{"start":183.975,"end":187.144,"text":"這個部分涉及到激增的事務是不是請署長來跟委員做說明"},{"start":189.455,"end":217.924,"text":"報告委員委員提到的是屬於信託存續當中如果他房子出租的時候要繳營業稅的問題那基本上因為我們講的這個受託因為他是營業人那根據營業稅法規定你就是屬於營業行為那就是要課營業稅但他這個營業稅如果他沒有拿去扣抵或什麼他是可以當作信託財產收入的減相所以他的那個要課稅的所得就會變少這是第一點"},{"start":218.744,"end":245.397,"text":"那第二點就是說如果這個受託人他去出租這個財產因為依照稅法規定他是要設帳跟保存憑證所以他的收入是可以減掉實際的成本費用那通常如果實際成本費用可能算出來結果會超過委員剛剛所講自然人所使用的43%的費用率的時候那他反而是有利的反而是有利的所以這實際上要看他個案到底他的成本費用的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":247.089,"end":267.771,"text":"那个是在设定费用的时候但是我要强调的就是说虽然他是一个他是营业法人所以他去出估给别人要负担这笔营业费对不对要负担这笔营业费但是终究他整个的信托利益是要回到这一个信托人"},{"start":268.571,"end":290.905,"text":"那信托人就因为被扣了这5%他相对他未来领到的利益也是会少了这一段所以我是意思是说在这个精算的结果之下实际上我去选择信托的反而会因为这中间的税负负担然后让他得到的利益比他实际出租还要少"},{"start":291.823,"end":295.524,"text":"有這樣的一個狀況我了解委員的意思但是實際上到底他自己管理那個財產還是信託給受託人去管理財產哪一邊的利益會比較大是要看他實際的狀況其實不見得當然實際狀況有很多啦對 不見得但是在課稅上是有一點是數學問題"},{"start":312.25,"end":323.964,"text":"對 就像我剛剛在數學問題上看起來他是相對拿到的反而比較少我鼓勵他去做信託的這個選擇結果他拿到的收益反而少"},{"start":325.841,"end":349.909,"text":"某些假設的情況之下會出現像委員的狀況我覺得你們回去研究一下因為我們最終還是希望說我這個老人家我把財產拿出來信託那我可以收到的利益是相對是可以比較好一點讓他可以有更有誘因去選擇好不好那我是不是再有請這一個這國產署曾署長請曾署長"},{"start":357.322,"end":379.5,"text":"委員好署長是署長事實上你也知道事實上有很多國有土地它可能涉及到在過去的時候他們就是上面已經有建物而且它很多是82721之前的話我們就會把它視為說它是一個寄存的一個事實那我們當然就讓它可以繼續使用"},{"start":380,"end":406.173,"text":"但是事實上署長我們處理過很多城市案件都是在他有沒有82年之前有這個爭議有一些爭議他可能說他憑證不存在他沒有辦法去具體舉證然後就面臨到了說他可能要必須要拆屋還地國產署這個狀況是很多你們也面對監察院的壓力這個我都懂但是我要跟署長說我還是有遇到一些個案"},{"start":407.313,"end":432.91,"text":"他那間房子的所有人就是一個老人家就是一個老人家他一旦這個房子被拆屋還地了他沒有地方住那甚至有的是一對阿嬤他不敢讓他沒錢他怕讓他沒錢他要面對接下來的訴訟跟拆屋還地的話他怕他身體在生病他怕他身體會受不了"},{"start":434.093,"end":460.013,"text":"所以我是觉得说能不能说我们在面对因为如果我们认为说他是有违法的使用你们事实上还是有收相当于使用补偿金还是有在收这笔钱那如果他确实就是一个老人已经他只是在那里就唯一住的一个地方你们在选择诉讼或最后强行执行的时候是不是能够有更多的这个"},{"start":461.278,"end":477.89,"text":"法理情裡面還是有這個情在啦我遇到的有些狀況我也很難過啊因為我知道說站在法律面他沒辦法舉證他是82年前就有的房子那他當然要面對訴訟要面對這些但是他就把那好大而已啊"},{"start":479.534,"end":506.07,"text":"這樣子我簡單回答委員第一個如果真的確實有這個問題的話只要他主張氏族的居住權因為這是國際公約台灣也有簽氏族的居住權也就是說他跟他的直系親屬沒有其他可以居住的地點的話我們可以就不執行相關的債務繁地第二個當然如果"},{"start":506.85,"end":535.429,"text":"有一些比较特殊的情况之下也不是社会大众所关注的部分那这个部分我觉得我们可以考量罗长我跟你说一个很残酷的事实像我接触到的委员个案的问题我有跟他对我没有要讲个案但是说我没有要具体是说但是你也知道台湾人有一个习性女孩嫁出去算人家的女孩有财产"},{"start":536.249,"end":547.159,"text":"有沒有 女孩子有不懂善 有錯那她就沒辦法去主張說她是沒有地方可以安置的"},{"start":550.029,"end":554.332,"text":"你知道有很多又跟一些民間的民間的習俗 規定這些都綜合在一起看我們會覺得很不敢啦我會覺得政府在執行這些事情的時候如果再多一點人性的一些考量上事實上我們還是有持續在收這個使用補償費"},{"start":571.064,"end":597.202,"text":"委員這個部分我們可以來跟審計監察單位再溝通一下因為說實在的國財署也不太願意拆這個房子我知道你們基層的人也都很痛苦這個我都知道但是他們最後跟我的答案就是我們有面對監察院的壓力沒有錯因為我們如果不執行的話所以我在在你們拜託的時候我也很辛苦我知道你們也是面對壓力但是我覺得很多狀況"},{"start":598.343,"end":619.59,"text":"我想透過這個質詢也讓大家知道你也可以到我的質詢拿去給檢察院看真的有很多 我覺得真的好多人我請我同事研究一下對於這一種有一些要拆戶還地的部分能不能有一些特殊的狀況之下可以暫緩因為說實在有的老人家你要叫他搬一個地方"},{"start":622.771,"end":647.529,"text":"他就在那邊跌對不對叫他跌下去他不見得去的時候搞不好就郁郁寡歡或甚至身體就會出現問題其實我們會用同理心我在跟同仁這邊我們在研究在審計監察單位可以接受或法律上面可以有一些授權的時候我們來做一些調整我想委員這個為民眾發聲我們了解你今天這個答覆"},{"start":650.991,"end":654.115,"text":"我聽了很感動大家謝謝感謝謝謝委員謝謝蔡英文委員也謝謝好我想我先做一個"}]}},{"id":"167297","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167297","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d66d271995d7c3b2718be46b2d1fb1915a4e13b340c61ef17d71fa32a71faafad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:17:21 - 12:22:43","影片長度":"00:05:22","會議時間":"2026-01-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"3.黃被提名人文玲-立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單，游盈隆為委員並為主任委員，胡博硯為委員並為副主任委員，黃文玲、李禮仲、蘇嘉宏、蘇子喬及陳宗義均為委員，請同意案。【1月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-28","start_time":"2026-01-28T12:17:21+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-28T12:22:43+08:00","duration":322,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.181593750000001,"end":10.004093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.168468750000002,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.93971875,"end":24.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.08721875,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.140968750000003,"end":32.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.44346875,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.17721875,"end":39.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.58596875,"end":44.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.12096875,"end":47.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.85471875,"end":50.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.16221875,"end":57.102218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.338468750000004,"end":62.367218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.89034375000001,"end":62.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.430343750000006,"end":73.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.97721875,"end":79.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.35596875,"end":87.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.25346875000001,"end":95.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.89784375,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.90596875,"end":100.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.40346875,"end":101.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.50034375000001,"end":107.84534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.06471875000001,"end":108.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.84096875,"end":115.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.70909375000001,"end":116.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.77221875000001,"end":119.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.43846875000001,"end":123.64034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.38284375,"end":130.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.84596875,"end":133.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.54159375,"end":136.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.46096875,"end":142.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.33346875,"end":144.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.13909375,"end":152.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.85096875000002,"end":164.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.73096875000002,"end":174.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.70409375,"end":181.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.97721875000002,"end":189.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.44471875000002,"end":187.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.19534375,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.06784375,"end":198.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.75471875000002,"end":202.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.64034375000003,"end":232.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.79971875,"end":249.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.76409375000003,"end":250.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.83159375000002,"end":252.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.97909375,"end":264.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.91409375,"end":262.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.37346875000003,"end":267.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.19159375000004,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.03534375000004,"end":275.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.05221875,"end":269.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.75159375000004,"end":278.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.89034375,"end":279.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.16034375000004,"end":280.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.76346875,"end":288.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.35721875,"end":295.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.36034375,"end":305.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.00909375000003,"end":302.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.84409375,"end":318.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.13471875000005,"end":308.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.48471875,"end":310.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.66471875,"end":321.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.44096875,"end":320.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.10721875,"end":322.96784375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.466,"end":32.499,"text":"謝謝主席我請被提名人請讓我們被提名人是委員好好久不見我稱呼您黃律師好黃律師很高興在這邊看到您尤其是您的父親是以前非常受敬重的中選會的主委我想中選會也好或者是任何選委會的委員都需要"},{"start":33.419,"end":50.368,"text":"移植相關的公正跟獨立性那民主選舉的過程裡面不是只有最後一天的結果我想過程很重要過程的公平包括更多的所謂的不孝方法或者是說有一些不正當的方式造成了選舉的不公"},{"start":51.226,"end":68.543,"text":"那我個人比較我看到你的問卷大概到大部分都有回答不過我今天要問的是根據有關選舉的過程裡面其實最大的一塊叫做媒體不公媒體不公的部分在各個法律其都規定得非常清楚總統副總統選罷法46條還有公職人員選罷法49條在廣播電視"},{"start":74.068,"end":87.251,"text":"也從事選舉或罷免相關議題的論證新聞報導或邀請候選人罷免案提議人或被罷免人的參加節目要公正公平處理不可以有無正當理由的差別待遇"},{"start":88.291,"end":104.606,"text":"但是這麼多年來我相信你也選過去我們只要是非所謂主流媒體的支持的對象大概都會在很多媒體中被消失包括在我想去年的總統大選也非常的清楚2024的總統大選"},{"start":106.187,"end":123.448,"text":"非常清楚的是某個藍媒綠媒現在已經台灣人都有一定的既定的印象你會看到有一些藍媒看不到綠色的綠媒看不到藍色的那更糟糕的像台灣民眾黨我們是中間所以兩邊都看不到"},{"start":124.869,"end":137.668,"text":"這個部分我們曾經也提出過很嚴肅的控訴那NCC有回答說查無證據啦我們也有檢舉但是回去要給中選會所以我們就不禁要去查到在101年"},{"start":138.922,"end":161.913,"text":"在105年其實中選會都曾經對於媒體沒有邀請平衡報導或者是沒有邀請到這些所有的參選人而開罰的紀錄我想請問您您對第一媒體在選舉過程中沒有依法行事第二個105年到現在已經快10年了沒有塵埃任何一個媒體處罰"},{"start":162.953,"end":181.316,"text":"所以反而我們會懷念您父親當時當中選會主委的時候我們還有道德勇氣對媒體做相關的裁罰如果有這樣的案子我想知道您的想法跟您對於選舉公平應該在媒體上面怎麼樣來維護中選會的獨立性跟公正性"},{"start":182.655,"end":208.255,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想剛剛你提到這個部分其實我深受感同因為我其實我在2014年到18年這兩次彰化縣長選舉我就是以無黨籍的身份參選但是確實是媒體就是全部都把我們的新聞全部都消失掉被消失掉所以我可以感受到就是說就是選委會在這個"},{"start":209.376,"end":236.278,"text":"辦理選舉的過程之中其實他是必須要秉持公正客觀的態度而且專業的部分那至於就是特定的媒體那他們是不是可以就針對這個部分就是被選舉人就是沒有做公平的報導的部分是不是應該裁罰的部分其實我記得我那時候有去抗議過但是是似乎是好像沒有作用因為他們認為那個是NCC的NCC的"},{"start":237.779,"end":267.021,"text":"所以這就是我們今天中選會其實在101年曾經罰過當時是華視在政見發表會後沒有播出某個候選人的會後記者會被裁罰了20萬基本的該有的所以我認為中選會應該要有基本的就是法律的價值它的價值就是要維護選舉的公正公平然後每個候選人都能夠在媒體上能夠"},{"start":268.24,"end":291.269,"text":"被揭露我想大家都可能很清楚的知道這個公正性的確在現今的台灣媒體環境裡面做不到但是我相信中選會應該要做到中選會如果中選會還有道德勇氣的話我們10年來都沒有成過半子案子但是105年那時候還有某些節目只邀請特地的候選人還有"},{"start":291.889,"end":318.985,"text":"只邀請某些特定的沒有給予其他選區同樣的候選人相同的機會就被裁罰了40萬跟20萬這是我想中選會委員必須要秉持的一個所以他們那個時候的中選會委員可能有道德勇氣才會做這樣的一個裁量所以我們也期待我們未來有機會擔任委員的話也希望能夠秉持這樣這個立場是 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受刑人權利有民間團體認為非常關注受刑人跟收容人的投票權"},{"start":291.576,"end":319.862,"text":"那過去中情會認為根本不可能在在監投票那這等於完全剝奪了受刑人跟收容人的他這個憲法賦予的權利那我知道胡教授您在11月去年你也主持過在收容人投票權研討會擔任這個主持人胡教授你認為收容人跟受刑人有沒有投票權我先問你有沒有投票權有投票權只要他們沒有被褫奪公權他們就有投票權那如果有你要怎麼落實呢"},{"start":320.543,"end":335.303,"text":"我覺得在投開票所的設置上面來講我們因為要兼顧到公開化以及安全的問題這個部分其實我覺得不管是中選會或者法務部其實應該更努力來解決這問題因為他們有些人不是不在急有些人其實急就在監鎖"},{"start":337.105,"end":362.222,"text":"你提到的還是技術面問題嘛你在歐洲嘛歐洲他們就是很多人就有很多國家他就設了這個在間投票嘛這個你們你過去所屬的時代力量他們也是一直用這樣做例子嘛所以胡教授你認為是可行的嗎我認為可行這一次就可以辦了嗎年底的選舉就可以辦了嗎這個我不確定這個可能要跟幕僚機關以及各省市選委會來辦但是從我的觀點來講我一直都認為這是可以做的"},{"start":366.206,"end":373.88,"text":"可以做就要去做啊對 我也會去從我的觀點我也會去對行這件事情好 謝謝 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麥玉珍 丁學忠委員三人列席官員 大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑暨相關人員內政部常務次長吳唐安暨相關人員中央全局委員會法務部外交部國家安全局國家通訊傳播委員會數位發展部交通部司法院監察院財團法人海峽交流基金會等機關代表暨相關人員主席王昭吉委員美會討論事項審查反滲透法修正草案暨時案討論事項合併詢答委員"},{"start":1675.712,"end":1701.867,"text":"沈博洋 王定宇 黃捷說明提案要旨大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑內政部常務次長吳唐安報告委員蘇巧慧等17人質詢分別由大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑及相關人員國家安全局第三處陳副處長法務部參事謝志明司法院刑事廳法官吳元耀內政部常務次長吳唐安中央選舉委員會法政處處長蔡京高數位發展部法制處副處長吳怡倫答覆說明"},{"start":1702.327,"end":1726.361,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員莊銳雄 林怡瑾 丁學忠 徐欣盈 沈發慧等五人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及位及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢請問各位委員 今天會議記錄有什麼錯誤與疑慮嗎沒有"},{"start":1732.871,"end":1748.001,"text":"議事錄確定我們繼續進行討論署行簽讀審查行政院涵送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單游盈隆為委員並為主任委員胡柏彥為委員並為副主任委員"},{"start":1748.901,"end":1767.209,"text":"黃文玲 李李仲 蘇嘉鴻 蘇紫橋及陳忠義 軍委委員請同意案依序分別審查由被提名人 迎龍胡被提名人 博焱黃被提名人 文玲李被提名人 李仲蘇被提名人 嘉鴻蘇被提名人 紫橋陳被提名人 忠義 宣讀完畢我們來介紹主席的委員跟行政機關列席的委員跟被提名人"},{"start":1786.826,"end":1807.007,"text":"我們先來第一位張志倫委員第二位劉錫廷委員現在進來我們的王鴻薇委員我們現在向正義秘書長張敦漢秘書長"},{"start":1811.314,"end":1816.475,"text":"中央選舉委員會主任委員被提名人游一龍副主任委員被提名人吳柏彥委員提名人比提名人黃文玲"},{"start":1834.541,"end":1842.286,"text":"委員比提名人李立忠委員比提名人蘇嘉鴻委員比提名人蘇志橋委員比提名人陳忠義主任必須謝美玲"},{"start":1863.717,"end":1874.106,"text":"我們行政院林署行政總署培訓考用處處長李花蘇你歡迎"},{"start":1888.137,"end":1895.403,"text":"立法院院會第11屆第4期第16次會議報告交付內政司法及法治兩個委員會審查中央委員會所提出的命令"},{"start":1910.723,"end":1914.604,"text":"兩委員會一位26級辦公廳會以前也已經完成本院各黨團隊被提名人的資格"},{"start":1925.309,"end":1952.296,"text":"事任性所提出的書面問題函請行政院轉致各備提名人經行政院函附各備提名人提出與相關的資料並以檢証於各黨團在案本案審查程序安排在28日、29日兩天一天"},{"start":1954.684,"end":1955.045,"text":"會議分配審查"},{"start":1961.484,"end":1986.661,"text":"本這個會議開始進行前行宣告以下事項先進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明及答詢依程序由行政院張秘書長及游盈隆先生分配說明後進行詢答"},{"start":1988.383,"end":2003.879,"text":"由榮榮先生撥分全部達成結束後 休訓10分鐘再進行提名人胡柏彥先生的署名與答詢程序與定管一樣 並釋放會議"},{"start":2010.325,"end":2033.473,"text":"會議進行的總統職項與程序分別進行比提名人黃文玲、李立中、蘇家鴻、蘇芝喬、陳宗義說明與答詢答詢的時間出席出席委員會六分鐘內席委員會四分鐘"},{"start":2038.835,"end":2044.402,"text":"本院的委員會議定期時間10點半一至本次會議沒有要處理臨時提案現在我們請行政委張秘書長進行說明"},{"start":2065.396,"end":2092.17,"text":"主席在場的各位委員各位先生女士媒體朋友大家早安今天立法院內政跟司法法制委員會聯席審查行政院所提名的七位中選會委員被提名人本人應邀這個列席報告宣感榮幸選舉罷免跟公民投票都是我國國民重要的參政權"},{"start":2093.479,"end":2118.513,"text":"也是憲法保障人民參與公共事務的基本權利台灣透過了一次次選舉罷免或者是公民投票逐步的深化我國的民主憲政為了貫徹憲法保障民主法治及人民參政的主旨總選會秉持超然中立 恪守中立的精神統籌辦理"},{"start":2120.814,"end":2144.737,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免及公民投票的事務持續鞏固公平公正公開的公共事務環境以確保國民意志的展現因此中選會運作是中華民國實現民主核心的機制以下僅就本次的提名作業做簡要的報告跟說明依照中選會組織法"},{"start":2146.496,"end":2174.398,"text":"第三條第一項規定中選會設置9到11個人其中一人為主任委員一人為副主任委員其他的委員7到9位那這次的提名也是依照中選會組織法來進行提名領選具有法證相關的專業經驗的公證人士來擔任委員中有同一個黨籍的不得超過委員總數的三分之一"},{"start":2176.906,"end":2202.011,"text":"那也跟大家報告跟說明依照中選會組織法的規定中選會除了主任委員跟副主任委員之外其餘經為兼職無給職那這次的提名也依照這樣的規定來進行跟辦理那麼第二個說明是中選會前主任委員李靖勇副主任委員陳昭健委員許惠峰 陳恩明 王韻如"},{"start":2203.277,"end":2218.411,"text":"徐亞芬等六人的任期已經在去年的11月3日屆滿另外委員蒙志成也因為個人的因素而提早請辭所以這一次行政院提名游英龍為委員並為主任委員"},{"start":2220.509,"end":2247.442,"text":"胡柏諺為副主任委員並為委員委員包括了黃文玲女士李李仲先生 蘇嘉鴻先生 蘇紫橋先生等六人那以上這六人的任期會依照相關的法令規定任期會到2029年的11月3日而且委員蒙志成的遺缺將由陳忠義接任任期會到明年的11月為止"},{"start":2249.471,"end":2272.93,"text":"那這次中選會的新任委員提名是依照中選會組織法第三條規定辦理滿足了三個法定的條件第一個滿足了中選會組法第三條第四項的規定提名了具有豐富專業學識或實務經驗的公正人士來進行第二個同一個黨籍的委員也不會超過三分之一在這次被提名人當中"},{"start":2274.324,"end":2302.163,"text":"僅有胡柏諺有時代力量的黨籍蘇嘉鴻教授有中國國民黨的黨籍那陳忠義前立委則是有民主進步黨的黨籍其他的四個人目前僅為無黨籍如果蒙大院通過所有的人事同意權後那麼加上目前現有的四位委員委員的有黨籍的同一黨籍的人數的比例不會超過法定的三分之一"},{"start":2303.339,"end":2324.114,"text":"那第三個經過這次提名作業的竊竭拒絕所有的七位被提名人均無中國戶籍也無外國戶籍或永久居留權也符合了相關的國籍的規範那以下也就這次七位被提名人的學經歷背景做簡單扼要的報告"},{"start":2326.991,"end":2355.059,"text":"那第一位是主任委員 並為委員游盈榮教授那大家對他很熟悉他是台灣民意基金會的董事長過去長期在學術界在東吳大學任教非常多年那在中央的行政經驗他不但擔任過過去行政研考會的副主任委員陸委會的特任副主任委員海基會的副董事長兼秘書長"},{"start":2356.874,"end":2382.131,"text":"也擔任過中選會的委員在政治學比較政治民意與投票行為政黨選舉等領域專業駐有專精那第二位是胡柏彥委員並為副主任委員胡柏彥教授現在是東吳大學法律系的教授專長是憲法行政法過去他也在不同的大學任教"},{"start":2383.598,"end":2410.681,"text":"也曾經擔任過許多中央部會的書院審議會或者是法規委員會的委員那他也曾經擔任過中選會書院委員會的委員對於中選會的業務也是非常的實務上也是非常的了解那第三位被提名人也是過去的資深的立委黃文林律師那黃文林律師的專長是法律及內政"},{"start":2412.284,"end":2437.106,"text":"曾經擔任過第八屆的立委也曾經擔任過多個仲裁協會的仲裁人在程序、主持、爭議處理方面有相當豐富的實務經驗第四位是李李仲教授李李仲教授是由中國國民黨所推薦的被提名人李教授現在是中華科技大學的專任教授"},{"start":2438.174,"end":2458.163,"text":"也是副校長專長是商業跟金融監理的法規公平法跟智慧財產權等多元的領域那他過去也曾經擔任過第七屆公平教育委員會的委員長期投入法學的研究兼具公共治理選務跟獨立機關的實務經驗"},{"start":2461.53,"end":2484.826,"text":"那第五位蘇嘉鴻教授也是中國國民黨所推薦的優秀的人選那蘇嘉鴻教授目前是福音科技大學的專任教授過去在中央他也曾經擔任過海委會國家海洋研究院海洋政策及文化研究中心的主任等職務現在也擔任許多地方政府"},{"start":2487.796,"end":2511.955,"text":"醫療爭議調解委員會跟醫事審議委員會的委員從中央到地方從理論到實務也具有豐富的經驗第六位是舒子喬教授那舒子喬教授是台灣民眾黨所推薦的被提名人那舒子喬教授是現任東吳大學政治系的教授專長是憲政體制選舉制度以及比較政治"},{"start":2514.367,"end":2542.916,"text":"長期研究我國的憲政制度跟選舉制度並著作等身有相當豐富的期刊跟論文那第七位被提名人是陳忠義前立委他目前是桃園市選委會的委員專長是法律曾經擔任升格之前的桃園縣的桃園市長也是立法院第五屆的立法委員資深立委"},{"start":2544.181,"end":2571.059,"text":"在地方不只有行政的經驗也擔任過長期的縣議員的職務具有豐富的中央跟地方的實務經驗相信也能夠為中選會無論是中央或者是地方的選舉事務能夠投注非常多的專業的貢獻那這次中選會的提名作業也感謝國民黨以及民眾黨"},{"start":2574.884,"end":2593.445,"text":"舉薦優秀的人才經過行政院審酌的考量秉持著韓納各黨推薦橫跨朝野背景兼具理論實務以及中央地方經驗這四個原則我們就相關的領域領選了七位"},{"start":2594.741,"end":2615.012,"text":"被提名人加上現有的四位中選會委員也都是學長巨優相信能夠為中選會籌辦選務注入專業全面的規劃跟運作思維持續深化中華民國台灣的民主法治體現主權在民希望"},{"start":2616.38,"end":2645.249,"text":"貴院所有的委員能夠理性審議予以支持 以上報告請各位委員先進指教 謝謝謝謝 感謝張秘書長的說明現在我們開始來進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明和答詢請被提名人游盈隆先生說明"},{"start":2659.629,"end":2684.209,"text":"王主席各位委員行政院張秘書長各位女士各位先生大家早安大家好我今天非常榮幸能夠以中選會主委被提名人的身份來國會的殿堂來接受各位的"},{"start":2686.331,"end":2715.252,"text":"提問不過一開始我沒有預期到說我還要做報告要做說明不過我簡單的講11月底我接受行政院的提名我是抱持著一個如臨深淵如履薄冰的心情接下這樣的一個提名我知道"},{"start":2717.011,"end":2743.566,"text":"中選會主委的工作是非常的艱鉅的中選會的工作不是常人所能夠理解但是中選會的工作關係到台灣民主的成敗所以承擔這樣的一個角色那是無比的沉重也無比的榮幸"},{"start":2747.267,"end":2751.749,"text":"我是懷抱理想跟使命感而來我希望為台灣民主做出貢獻在目前國內政局緊張政黨高度競爭的環境裡面中選會要如何"},{"start":2776.061,"end":2801.632,"text":"做到讓各黨都能滿意讓所有的候選人能滿意讓選民能夠滿意是一個非常艱鉅的挑戰但我相信如果我獲得大院的同意支持未來我一定會"},{"start":2804.282,"end":2831.329,"text":"堅持絕對的超然中立客觀公正並且專業的精神和能力全力以赴希望中選會一個健全的中選會能夠在大院的支持之下早日的出現在國人眼前讓我們"},{"start":2833.166,"end":2854.518,"text":"我們2026的大選能夠順利成功讓我們2028的大選能夠順利成功中選會是這樣的一個角色我在這裡非常誠摯的也謙卑的要向我們的國會報告並且也請求讓中選會"},{"start":2864.349,"end":2891.091,"text":"人事案早日通過 讓中選會早日上路為大家做事 謝謝大家謝謝 我們現在請登記第一位 牛西庭委員質詢謝謝主席 請備題名人游教授請游教授"},{"start":2899.758,"end":2917.487,"text":"好早安林委員早這個您大部分我們認識游教授都是在新聞媒體上因為這個台灣民意基金會的這個民意調查也算是赫赫有名長時間的滾動提供了政治圈非常多攻打手邊的一個素材那大家在"},{"start":2918.726,"end":2945.287,"text":"這個看到游盈隆教授被列為中選會主委的提名人的時候大家當然是有一些意外也有很多問題想要請教那麼今天很高興有這樣一個機緣可以跟教授來做一下面對面的討論我問的第一個問題就是你應該如何確保啊這個如果有幸成為中選會主委啊因為你平常也評論非常多的一個政治的事務也做民意調查在基金會裡面有職務你怎麼樣確保這之間的分際可以非常的清楚你打算做哪一些的決定"},{"start":2948.396,"end":2973.935,"text":"謝謝牛委員我已經有了相當的覺悟擔任中選會主委也有一定程度的犧牲是要付出的我可能失去了自由我的意思是說失去評論台灣公開評論台灣政治的自由作為一個政治學者"},{"start":2975.23,"end":3004.095,"text":"我作為一個關心台灣的知識分子那樣的一個犧牲是重大的但是為了更高的目的為了更重大的目標我覺得我必須做這樣的歌聲一語雄長不能得見好 所以意思就是說不會再發表相關的評論民意調查等等也會離開基金會的職務是這樣的意思嗎如果大院能夠"},{"start":3005.266,"end":3026.884,"text":"通過中選會主委的人事同意權任命我將辭去台灣民意教育基金會的董事長也辭去董事我採取比法律更嚴格的標準做自我的要求非常好 謝謝"},{"start":3028.294,"end":3056.467,"text":"那麼我們再針對幾個常常我們在中選會這個平台做討論的題目跟教授做一下意見的交換這個目前立法院有很多的委員提案修正公職人員選罷法或者是不在籍投票的各種相關的一個草案那也有這個這個大家的版本不一樣但大部分的版本基本上都是限於所謂的境內移轉投票有關不在籍投票的部分換言之就是透過登記的部分我不見得要舟車勞頓的返鄉"},{"start":3057.967,"end":3086.897,"text":"我可以在就近的投票所去投別的選舉這是在自己戶籍所在地的這樣子的一個投票那我想請問一下被提名人立法院如果修正相關的法令新增了不在籍投票相關的制度限於國內移轉投票請問您會不會忠實的執行立法院通過的法律當然如果立法院通過了不在籍投票中選會只有依法行政全力以赴好 謝謝"},{"start":3088.103,"end":3114.416,"text":"那您覺得在您如果你有機會領導中選會啦您可能需要多少時間來做好境內移轉投票制度的相關準備工作我不知道這項立法到時候在立法院會如何通過整個制度的內容到底是怎麼樣我不清楚但是我也要就最近我從我們中選會"},{"start":3117.639,"end":3139.077,"text":"同仁那里所得到的许多的资讯我深深的感觉不在即投票是世界的潮流也是台湾许多人直觉上对的一个努力方向但是"},{"start":3140.732,"end":3170.098,"text":"當我們在講世界各國很多都採取了這個不在籍投票的時候台灣沒有感覺到自己落後了自己很慚愧我覺得那種心情是可以理解的我肯定那是一個進步的思維可是我們也不能夠脫離現實如果回到我們自己的國家的選舉制度"},{"start":3172.025,"end":3185.677,"text":"我們深入去看很快就會發現不在籍投票牽涉的是非常複雜的選舉的工程尤其是九合一尤其是在九合一地方選舉裡面"},{"start":3199.188,"end":3220.356,"text":"實施不在籍投票就現階段來講肯定是一個災難中選會已經提出來如果在九合一地方選舉辦不在籍投票將會造成將近九千種不同的選票在極端的狀況下所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":3224.028,"end":3245.234,"text":"很重要的一點我們喜歡看天邊的彩霞但不要踩壞了眼前的一大這個玫瑰讓我們的這個傲視世界的台灣選舉然後蒙城教授這個那到底是要執行還是不執行花多少時間準備"},{"start":3246.351,"end":3262.104,"text":"所以我剛剛講原則上我剛剛已經講但是願意執行但需要很多時間準備實際上要通過什麼樣的制度內容目前您知道嗎還是您可以現在告訴我我可以做回應當然這個有很多不同的版本"},{"start":3262.684,"end":3284.121,"text":"這個如果你有幸擔任中學會主委相信還有很多討論的機會但因為時間有限我們還有問最後幾個問題因為我們的執政黨曾經表示如果施行不在籍投票會導致選民投票的信任消失會有作票的風險也曾經說會有讓中國大陸借選更加容易即便我們剛剛講的現在的不在籍投票的版本是國內的移轉投票"},{"start":3285.041,"end":3308.983,"text":"這樣子的一個說法你認同嗎在你領導下的中選會你如何去避免這個選務公信力下降的問題你該如何把這個東西帶領好你真的覺得不再投票會有作票的風險嗎請你簡要回答就好選務行政的公信力是非常重要甚至是最重要的讓選民相信選舉的結果是公正的那但是呢"},{"start":3311.833,"end":3333.844,"text":"實施不在籍投票最大的困難是來自於執行面在可行性我覺得境外的影響等等可能是比較其次比較其次還是在於選務整個在操辦選務過程中遇到的一些新政的困難那你有沒有信心可以逐步的解決我不要講一步到位"},{"start":3335.611,"end":3362.568,"text":"如果立法院提了一個中選會沒辦法執行的一個方案壓垮中選會我也沒辦法在這邊跟您保證說一定就能夠做得好如果這樣的話是不負責任的好 謝謝教授 因為今天時間有限不過我建議你 後面還有很多委員要就教就直接回答這樣子就好了 好吧好 這給你一點點提醒跟建議 祝你今天順利 謝謝"},{"start":3366.075,"end":3371.099,"text":"謝謝我們感謝牛西廷委員質詢 我們請張志倫委員好謝謝主席各位媒體各位官員大家早有請這個中選會主委提名人游盈榮教授請游教授"},{"start":3393.646,"end":3412.842,"text":"好 教授好首先恭喜你成為中選會被提名人也預祝你可以順利當選那教授容我稱你教授那教授過去這個本席對你的了解不管是從這個電視上或是一些民調當中去了解您"},{"start":3413.542,"end":3441.572,"text":"那當然您對這個在去年的時候針對於這個大罷免的亂象你也公開提出這個批評甚至非常誠實的說這是對民主的傷害您的說法是執政黨就是參與發動這場全面性無差別的大罷免企圖奪回國會主導權不僅是台灣民主主流的民意的反對也會被其他民主國家不能接受"},{"start":3442.031,"end":3462.637,"text":"所以這個意思就是說大罷免不是民主之光反而是台灣民主之恥這是您說的嗎是 我講過是 好 那本席在這邊必須要稱讚您就是你願意講真話的風骨本席予以高度肯定那這邊我本席也要特別講在台灣這個民主史上不管是選舉"},{"start":3463.997,"end":3487.444,"text":"罷免或是公投在選舉制度上其實是蠻完整的一個制度可是在罷免跟公投上過去產生出了很多問題尤其在罷免上就您的這個評論來講就是執政黨其實利用了罷免裡面很多的漏洞來去做一些這個政黨政治的一些對決跟一些操作所以本席想要這邊特別跟你請教尤其是在罷免"},{"start":3489.105,"end":3507.984,"text":"這個每一個民意代表當選一年內可不可以執行罷免的這個連署的時候其實這個法是無明文規定的可是會造成這個社會上的一個對立所以本席必須要說選舉投票是一個民主的行為可是罷免它是一個"},{"start":3509.164,"end":3537.713,"text":"政黨的一個對決而且造成社會分裂而且是長期會造成一個情熱的問題投票你投誰大家非常清楚嘛而且這是秘密投票大家不知道你投誰可是罷免如果你沒有去連署的話會造成無盡的情熱啊而且說你沒有罷免我遇到很多民眾跟我講說他就是不想要連署罷免可是被民眾這樣子要求說一定要罷免要去簽連署還有一些攤販跟我講說他如果沒有去連署罷免他會人家會跟他恐嚇說"},{"start":3538.613,"end":3560.431,"text":"你這樣子我的生意讓你做不下去喔所以我覺得在當選一年內去做這樣子的這個罷免的連署喔其實就是現在整個制度上的一個漏洞那我看到你的報告裡面也有想說你未來會倡議說不能去進行這樣子一個動作請問你有沒有一些具體的做法或是未來可能會跟內政部去討論這樣的事情以目前的制度來看這個對於"},{"start":3568.07,"end":3594.737,"text":"罷免的規範是在選完一年之後也就是說當選一年之後才能夠進行罷免但是法律沒有禁止社會對就是說有相關的罷免的言論主委你同意這樣子這個不說言論是大家言論自由可是進行連署的一個方式您自己本身也是不贊成的對吧"},{"start":3594.977,"end":3616.751,"text":"我不贊成連署因為可以倡議那是言論自由那但是如果這個進行連署的話那就會對於我們想培養的這樣的一個成熟的政治文化是有傷的"},{"start":3617.959,"end":3635.172,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝教授教授你講的我覺得其實就是我們的心聲為什麼因為其實當時這個連署的一個過程造成社會分裂而且很多民眾其實被情的恐嚇這樣子的狀況其實非常的不好那也希望說未來你有機會擔任主委的時候也要多倡議這樣的行為變成說謝謝"},{"start":3637.854,"end":3656.091,"text":"那第二個我相信很多委員今天都有在跟你請教就是有關於不在籍投票的一個部分那不在籍投票其實目前其實我覺得這是非常重要因為現在就針對很多在投票所的工作人員他們其實有時候他們現在也是可以不在籍投票是嗎"},{"start":3657.892,"end":3675.62,"text":"所以現在的行之有年就是很多的工作人員其實在投票所的時候他們是可以進行不在籍投票所以本席有看到你的報告裡面寫說未來可行不在籍投票的順序第一個是移轉投票針對限定境內或身份特殊或者是戶籍地"},{"start":3676.44,"end":3697.195,"text":"在外的一些選務人員未來可以來考慮或者是在特定身份的不在意投票比如說這個援助民族或是服勤的警消人員等等我覺得這兩點我覺得非常重要因為第一個很多的公務人員或是警消人員其實他們的工作地跟戶籍地是不一樣的地方所以"},{"start":3698.115,"end":3725.265,"text":"這個部分本席也支持非常強烈支持您這樣的主張那是不是有一個期程說如果是不是可以先通過比如說我們一般的這個公務人員或是警消人員他們可以先來辦理這樣子的一個不在籍投票是不是可以請您回答是根據中選會最近的這個研究跟思考中選會是建議"},{"start":3726.646,"end":3746.421,"text":"不在籍投票先从单一的公民投票开始实施然后逐步的累积经验之后进一步推广到各项选举所以就这个角度来讲我觉得这样的一个态度是神圣的"},{"start":3746.969,"end":3766.956,"text":"是負責任的所以未來是不是能夠什麼時候哪一年能夠有一次公民投票然後在公民投票裡面試行不在籍投票然後我覺得那會是一個很重要的開始"},{"start":3767.486,"end":3790.026,"text":"好 了解 就是先從公民投票先起然後之後可能再就不特定人再來就是可能有進步有機會可以全面好 那我也希望主委這邊加速來實行那最後一個問題其實 針對其實當時我們這個立法院其實有決議一個這個公投的一個主題叫做反廢死"},{"start":3791.067,"end":3813.73,"text":"公投那當時是被中選會來就是否定這樣子的這個題目那因為當時這個議題有對很多民眾來講是非常的重要因為當時大家看到很多的這個殺人事件覺得說這樣現在的現在的民進黨政府就是不願意對現在比如說一些的案件去這個判死刑所以當然民眾覺得很"},{"start":3814.591,"end":3842.329,"text":"不能接受所以當時立法院才有這樣子的一個提案然後沒有想到被當時的中選會給否決那我想要請問主委當然你們否定也沒有當時你們有自己的理由啦那是不是針對這些民眾所關心的重要的這個公投的議題未來是不是有一些可以大家可以溝通的機會而不是說中選會直接把立法院提出的這些公投的主題直接給把它否定掉是 這是一個很複雜的問題我覺得"},{"start":3845.164,"end":3872.537,"text":"未來應該要多做溝通我覺得會比較好否則這裡面牽扯到太多複雜的問題沒有溝通的話引起強烈反彈對社會也不好好 謝謝教授聽到非常開心有機會第一次跟你這樣子面對面的質詢也期待你可以未來有機會可以當我們中選會的主委謝謝你 謝謝"},{"start":3878.535,"end":3899.786,"text":"謝謝我們感謝張志榮委員質詢我們家張宏祿委員我請我們的游主委加油教授"},{"start":3908.713,"end":3922.902,"text":"首先質詢前還是要稱老師好啦好 張委員好游教授是我大學的老師其實我很多的這個"},{"start":3926.298,"end":3946.306,"text":"這個政治學的東西都是游教授教導我的所以今天這樣問我是有點尷尬但是還是要問我想請問一下很多的委員也都有在關切這個不在即投票"},{"start":3947.066,"end":3967.352,"text":"但不在一起投票其實分了很多種大家現在一直在講一直在講其實慢慢的好像聚焦在移轉投票台灣現在大家一直慢慢聚焦在移轉投票其實我們中選會辦的就是選政的工作我們的選務的工作其實都是地方選委會在第一線在辦"},{"start":3968.892,"end":3992.427,"text":"那選政的工作我們就是說我想要請教游教授就是說其實台灣現在已經有部分的移轉投票我們投開票所的工作人員就有移轉投票那如果貿然的"},{"start":3994.111,"end":4020.493,"text":"要大規模的這個移轉投票我個人 我一個很擔心的問題我想不出解方也沒有任何人可以提出任何解方未來如果移轉投票變成是選政的一個改變的話我可不可以指定某些人去某個投開票所我去那邊投票跟開票"},{"start":4021.983,"end":4033.192,"text":"會不會有這種可能發生要看選區吧要看選區如果我為什麼要這樣講會變成買票"},{"start":4039.68,"end":4063.488,"text":"買票的人 我要求你收了我的錢你去特定的投開票所投票我買幾票 你沒有開出來幾票你就是給我跑票未來會發生這種情況如果發生這種情況我不知道各位被提名人你們有沒有解方"},{"start":4065.229,"end":4085.023,"text":"我相信目前都沒有解方啦我不知道教授您的看法我這樣講好了不再急投票我剛剛說的是世界的潮流民主國家採行不再急投票非常多那我們台灣在這方面其實已經落後很久了"},{"start":4091.98,"end":4120.609,"text":"所以要迎頭趕上我覺得在道理上是說得過去的不在即投票你讓許多無法返鄉的人去在他居住地投票這說起來社會上普遍也是會贊成的但是我也同意張委員剛剛所說的這可能會產生很多的問題包括你說的買票"},{"start":4122.754,"end":4140.047,"text":"這是因為我們台灣從來沒有實施過不在籍投票所以我們不知道會碰到什麼情況所以在這樣的情況底下事先當然應該做好非常周全的研究調查"},{"start":4142.133,"end":4167.047,"text":"然後考量各種因素然後再來進行我覺得目前中選會所提出的這樣的一個解決方式我覺得是可行的就是說我們要循序漸進不是一步到位我們一開始就在九合一選舉裡面全面性的弄不在即投票這個是太"},{"start":4169.86,"end":4192.07,"text":"太大膽而且太冒險的作為報復平和不足為訓是不是可以未來從公民投票開始先從那裡開始實施然後逐步的累積經驗然後解決了"},{"start":4193.513,"end":4205.585,"text":"我們社會或者是很多人們的疑慮我覺得這樣子分階段一步一步的走會是比較好的做法我也是這麼認為我覺得我們先從公投先對視"},{"start":4210.39,"end":4228.489,"text":"對勢來移轉投票 為什麼呢我也覺得這個不再急投票很多的國家都這樣做那台灣要不要跟著做我覺得這是一個很崇高的理想我也不反對但台灣有特殊的買票文化"},{"start":4229.471,"end":4248.428,"text":"美國會買票嗎不會吧對不對但台灣這個買票文化我們從報紙上就看得非常的清楚到處都有在買票幾十年來都是這樣那如果我們對人的選舉也實施移轉投票"},{"start":4250.117,"end":4272.243,"text":"我們的對岸中國我跟你講透過大規模的買票這個是對台灣一個非常嚴重的一個災難所以我個人我是認為對全國性的公投事情我們可以先來做做看為什麼我要這樣我必須再說我辦過選舉我是"},{"start":4275.958,"end":4294.054,"text":"縣選委會的總幹事我當了四年從村里長的選舉到總統的選舉我都親自辦過我跟你講 選務的複雜程度啊超乎大家的想像我們連一張選票連那個有汙損或印得不好"},{"start":4295.563,"end":4315.906,"text":"我們要一張一張選票這樣去看從頭到尾看到尾那個每個人壓力有多大如果你要移轉投票我跟你講問題太多了我要光說一個你連投票通知單 你選舉公報他要移轉去那裡 要誰去送到時候他說我沒有收到"},{"start":4317.217,"end":4338.15,"text":"這個有很多技術性的問題所以我必須要說移轉投票不是不行但不能照進照進會把台灣馬上一次垮掉如果一次選舉的不公平大家以後對選委會這個公信力就不在我常講一句選委會"},{"start":4340.034,"end":4356.856,"text":"如果你要辦選舉我多給你人多給你錢很多技術性是可以克服的但公信力是最重要的一件事選務公信力三個字是最重要的所以我還是覺得主委教授"},{"start":4358.459,"end":4375.749,"text":"如果你的看法也是一樣就是從事情先來我覺得應該是先朝這個方向不可以一次太躁進不知道教授的看法我完全同意你的看法我覺得這樣做對台灣是比較好的好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張宏祿委員接受我們請黃姐的委員"},{"start":4395.336,"end":4399.985,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請游盈隆被提名人加油教授"},{"start":4408.376,"end":4428.723,"text":"好黃委員好是好 邱董事長先跟您請教這個不在即投票其實您剛剛已經有提到一個重點就是說不在即投票雖然世界各地有很多國家在施行但是我們不一定要這樣冒進而且如果直接用九合一大選來貿然的進行的話會是一場災難"},{"start":4430.143,"end":4445.269,"text":"這是您剛剛的論調那我在這邊也想要附和這個論點因為其實大家也知道說選舉的公信力是最重要的那選舉如果我們九合一大選直接開始施行不在籍投票的話您剛剛是說會增加9000種選票是嗎就選票的種類來講是將近9000種"},{"start":4452.89,"end":4481.663,"text":"是的這就是一個非常重大的技術性的問題所以我在這邊想請教的是你們有沒有先算過如果九合一大選只要直接使用不在籍投票會要增加幾倍的經費幾倍的人力多少個投開票所因為我還沒有上任我只是努力的去收集相關的訊息我不知道中選會是不是已經評估出來我目前手邊沒有這樣的資訊"},{"start":4482.813,"end":4508.899,"text":"好那我在這邊先提供一些資訊喔在2021年內政部其實有大概統計過就是說如果這一些就學就業沒有涉戶籍那可能會因為不在籍投票而可能可以投票的人大概第一名是在雙北大概就有37.4萬人那第二名會在台中有26.5萬人第三名是桃園有26萬人第四名是台北有18.5萬人"},{"start":4510.479,"end":4532.57,"text":"那如果這些人通通來申請這個不在籍投票大概就是會增加大概百萬人以上那這個是2021年的數字那台北市的選委會當時也有出來說光是這個投開票所可能就要增加三倍以上那如果現在年底就要來做這件事情的話您覺得可行嗎您就一個選務機關的考量來說選籍"},{"start":4538.315,"end":4559.823,"text":"2026地方選舉是11月28號舉行今天正好1月28號 就是10個月左右我覺得直覺上是不可行的事實上最近中選會也曾經行文給各地方的選舉委員會"},{"start":4562.025,"end":4582.059,"text":"各地方選舉委員會也都回報關於不在籍投票地方的態度沒有一個選委會是同意在這一次採行不在籍投票的所以地方事實上也是挫雷彈"},{"start":4583.815,"end":4613.515,"text":"是嗎因為就我剛剛說的光是台北就說要增加三倍了更不用說其他像是新北台中這一些可能不在籍的人口有大概三四十萬人的這一些選區喔那所以我覺得這當然是一個很大的技術性的挑戰但是話說回來剛剛其實有一句話我其實沒有很認同是剛剛這個有董事長說我們台灣沒有實施不在籍投票跟國際上相比來說是落後的"},{"start":4614.255,"end":4642.064,"text":"那我必須要說其他的國家跟台灣的情況大大的不同啊你不能拿台灣的情況跟世界各地來比啊請問其他國家有中共借選嗎有一些想要試圖來破壞我們台灣民主的這些境外勢力嗎沒有嘛那再來其他的國家有像台灣這樣經歷過這些什麼中立事件等等買票做票的過去選舉舞弊的歷史嗎"},{"start":4642.924,"end":4663.144,"text":"也沒有嘛所以台灣的過去民主的歷史是非常艱辛的我們是這樣一步一步大家靠著人民的信任人民的爭取那我相信游董事長過去也是經過這些民主的事件努力撐起台灣的民主的所以一直拿國外來跟台灣比較我覺得非常的不公平"},{"start":4663.664,"end":4677.66,"text":"那台灣現在需要的是一個非常可信穩定而且有這個選舉公正性的民主制度所以任何的變革我認為都必須要在非常的可信而且公正的基礎上來進行選務的變革沒有不行"},{"start":4680.683,"end":4706.652,"text":"但是前提非常非常的重要因為台灣的民主很辛苦我們是這樣撐起來的所以在這邊還是拜託我們這個游董事長如果要回答說不再投票是國際的趨勢的時候拜託想想台灣自己特殊的歷史拜託想想台灣過去是怎麼走過來的所以不要一味的說要跟國際上來比較這真的不是一朝一夕可以做到的"},{"start":4706.952,"end":4720.846,"text":"那最後會有一點時間我跟您請教這個公投綁大選因為過去有董事長一直都是支持公投綁大選的所以在這邊想請教那如果您未來上任之後您還是支持公投綁大選嗎"},{"start":4722.332,"end":4740.66,"text":"我當然支持公投綁大憲而且也沒有不支持的空間因為法律已經修正了所以我在這邊就要請教的是沒錯因為這個藍白還是強行的又再次通過了嘛那我要請教的是那您要怎麼務實的解決過去2018發生的邊開票邊投票的問題開票到半夜三點的問題以及這些因為人綁事而造成這個沒有辦法好好的討論公投議題"},{"start":4751.844,"end":4778.079,"text":"以上這些問題直接民主是民進黨的核心價值我過去二十幾年來當我是一個民進黨黨員的時候我實際的參與相關的事務無數的民主前輩為了能夠實現公投犧牲奉獻他們的青春生命自由"},{"start":4779.409,"end":4801.982,"text":"所以公投是一個民進黨的核心價值是所有的民主國家應該要追求的是的 我們都認同我們也非常支持公投制度所以我在這邊跟您請教的是如何防範重演2018邊開票邊投票以及開票到半夜三點以及這些可能會影響選舉結果的可能的情況再度出現"},{"start":4803.571,"end":4831.354,"text":"2018年是一個噩夢而且這個噩夢的形成有一些條件支持其中一個那您如何預防未來不會再重演呢這是一個選務機關最重要的工作我可以說明一下嗎2018那一次有十項公投這十項公投選委會公告之後一個多月而已就要投票"},{"start":4832.614,"end":4852.905,"text":"所以造成整個秩序大亂 這是其中一個所以這一次 經過這幾年來朝野的共同體認之後修法所以將公告之後一個月就投票 改成三個月這是一個很重要的改變第二個"},{"start":4854.778,"end":4877.605,"text":"以前辦理那麼龐大的選務一半法律規定一半是要軍公教人員現在也修正成三分之一只需要三分之一所以我在這邊希望您可以承諾既然公投綁大選是您的立場也是您的責任那未來希望你可以承諾在你的任內絕對不會再發生2018的噩夢我們盡力而為這個要請你保證謝謝"},{"start":4883.663,"end":4898.925,"text":"好 謝謝備題名人 謝謝黃建委員好 接下來有請王美惠委員主席男嘉游教授有請備題名人 謝謝"},{"start":4905.129,"end":4917.502,"text":"王委員好你好在這幾天的過程當中我們有看到你的履歷剛才你說到你人家告訴你要做檔門這個節目的時候也有一邊高興"},{"start":4925.197,"end":4947.497,"text":"也有一邊為了理想而走因為在這個過程當中我們的選舉委員會中選會是要有中立的在剛才本席所聽的好歡樂的就是覺得大家都想你長久以來是在民意教育基金會裡面擔任當事長"},{"start":4950.834,"end":4955.083,"text":"剛才有很多委員請教說你可以當時時你說你如果"},{"start":4962.05,"end":4975.673,"text":"這個人事案過 過得馬上死因為我覺得好的理想雖然是夢死 有的人也說你每天都在批評民進黨那是怎麼來做這個因為我覺得有擔當的執政黨裡面"},{"start":4987.495,"end":5010.684,"text":"應該無論他是我什麼人 他是北平什麼人今天我們要做政府單位是看他的認知所以在這裡我保證 我在這裡也是國民黨也是我們的朋友任何一黨都是我們的朋友為了理想 為了建設"},{"start":5012.125,"end":5018.711,"text":"我們都要做法表這是最好的 如果不做朋友 我們也沒辦法不可能說法表當中 你的總選委跟你不共同 不一樣的想法 你就不採納他的意見跟他的想法 大家討論之後 才可以"},{"start":5036.987,"end":5047.465,"text":"有好好的問題出來所以在這個過程當中最重要最重要在那裡大家差不多都說不再舉投票高雄你有說"},{"start":5050.014,"end":5055.615,"text":"可以為公道開始但是在這個過程中你剛才有回答過跟我們是怎麼理會一般人會亂吵吵會這麼多人會開票的時候又有人又要投票因為這種我相信在你的代言之下以後可能不會再來發生也不是可能而已一定不會再來發生"},{"start":5077.742,"end":5092.223,"text":"在不在一起投票的時候有很多人歡樂的就是像我們的孫悟寧原譬如他在黨區做孫悟寧原像我自己來說"},{"start":5094.005,"end":5106.135,"text":"他在當局的補考在當局的 但是他算不領完譬如是在第一樓的票箱第一樓的票箱不是他應該到的地方 因為他有申請嘛但是在這個過程裡面 你覺得他最高興的就是議員都一樣"},{"start":5119.859,"end":5128.343,"text":"市長都一樣縣和里長不一樣他這張票如果沒投出來是人家縣的里長還是他沒投里長大家都知道所以告訴你"},{"start":5136.208,"end":5163.467,"text":"在這裡面我就是說我們教育也好 全國也好我們今天是要講全國的 但是我是批論這個情形給你聽因為我們中華民國的台灣的選舉是大家最近都認為最好的雖然是很古早 但是改進到有夠好的因為我們那些黨議會"},{"start":5165.288,"end":5175.031,"text":"就是我們有一個派出兵在派出兵當中有時候會應用到選舉因為我常常說好的人才認真發表的民意代表我們一定鼓勵他當選但是在這個過程當中不再是投票有時候會去應用到選舉的結果"},{"start":5192.675,"end":5198.517,"text":"所以在這要問教授不再審投票本身跟你說因為有時候選票票數也很多也有現在都回到選票票數也有但是在選票票數你如果在本層第三張很多選票票的人在那裡大他不覺得什麼他如果兇勇去申請一個"},{"start":5219.742,"end":5225.848,"text":"我自己人都沒有在那裡的票檔我今天的票投出來這樣才算閉路投票啦告訴你來會談我所有擔心的事情我們大家來做參考因為未來這可能"},{"start":5241.321,"end":5260.808,"text":"也會逐一去改善來翁委員所擔心的一個秘密投票可能破功出問題這確實是一個問題要去注意另外就是說你一開始的計較說我批評民進黨很多我在這裡向翁委員報告"},{"start":5268.907,"end":5274.112,"text":"我都是九十輪輸 沒特別去批評民進黨我也是批評共產黨 對啦我也是批評共民黨 高師傅我現在你可能 國會有我的意思高師傅我現在是說以我民進黨的 有人說跟你們去提名這一點點要批評你"},{"start":5288.886,"end":5291.388,"text":"我來說民進黨會出的任財不分什麼 不可以說跟他批評我們說我們不好我們就不體面他啊 因為他有他的專財嘛我剛才是說這樣 因為我認為很多人都說過的 欠費到買廢人"},{"start":5313.084,"end":5315.006,"text":"所以我要跟你說的就是有這個生活我相信你也聽到了你說的說 你說的事實但是有的人覺得說有需要"},{"start":5327.723,"end":5332.33,"text":"這樣做嘛這時候我覺得說要讓這個國家愛好像你這個領袖一定很讚的啦我這時候要問你不再只投票你要怎麼去改善本縣兩個"},{"start":5345.047,"end":5347.41,"text":"會擔憂啦 憂及濫捕人如果去到台北 我再跟你說有兩個地方有很多嫁給人 那都沒差那挑剔憂心裡 我才剛才還說如果派出兵"},{"start":5359.977,"end":5365.02,"text":"我們的生活他有辦法用另外一個生活這個票房跟你們的小家庭你們兩個阿嬤去住而已這要怎麼處理這才是最重要的啦跟我是來講"},{"start":5375.93,"end":5377.872,"text":"前幾天我是想問是怎麼邀請你來 因為你有你的專長我認為批評不是壞的 批評可以讓一個人改變他的生活可以做得更好"},{"start":5395.288,"end":5398.891,"text":"這是在我都覺得很關鍵的像我 我有時候也會覺得說我們做得不好應該要怎麼做才對啦來謝謝黃委員的指教 全份了解這個不在即投票 我剛才也已經跟大家報告在這裡再說一次就是說"},{"start":5419.181,"end":5436.827,"text":"不在即投票是一個很複雜的事情不是說發作就去做那是會造成很大的問題像這災難所以要循序漸進中商會有提出一個完整的草案給鄉長"},{"start":5438.207,"end":5459.941,"text":"行政議也通過 交給立法院所以是不是可以用風雄來努力累積經驗來盡量檢討它可能造成的問題包括翁議員你所說的 閉閉投票這種很重要的事情對 剛才我還有兩三個問題我想我這幾天的時間也夠了待會我們再來探討 希望"},{"start":5466.032,"end":5483.496,"text":"我們可以做得更好因為我的想法就是不管你是來自在座的也有很多特等都提出的人才所以我們應該是樂觀青春可以讓中選會加入去做更好的事情不是在這裡說分什麼黨的 怎樣怎樣"},{"start":5490.501,"end":5503.186,"text":"這樣是不應該的 如果要問什麼東西在座的都不可能今天來到這裡 以上謝謝王美惠委員 那要提名人請回交接一下我們這裡陳佩儀委員之行"},{"start":5520.031,"end":5549.723,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請貝提銘仁貝提銘仁好董事長早安我剛剛坐在現場聽了非常多的委員跟您請教了關於不再急投票你的立場非常的清楚就是不再急投票如果貿然實施會是一個大災難那我們就接下來看大家都沒有想到的一個問題我覺得非常的可怕"},{"start":5550.182,"end":5568.566,"text":"不確定董事長你有沒有注意到在去年11月我們立法院在藍白惡意強力主導之下通過了公投綁大選而且他說投票案公告成立後一到六個月就要舉行公投這個是針對人民的部分"},{"start":5569.006,"end":5590.619,"text":"可是呢公投法又有規定董事長他說如果是總統交付或是立法院或是行政院提案的特殊公投案不適用相關的頻率跟日期的規定就是沒有一定要兩年才能辦一次所以我可不可以假設一個情況請中選會想一想也請董事長你考慮一下怎麼回答第一個"},{"start":5591.139,"end":5617.14,"text":"假設今天真的有立法院藍白黨團惡意再提出一個在今年年底大選以前就來提出一個立法院本身提出的公投案然後逼你們中選會因為剛剛主委你一直被提名人你一直說你支持公投綁大選那我就看年底選舉的時候只要立法院藍白黨團對中選會提出相關的公投案不管是什麼主題"},{"start":5618.701,"end":5640.063,"text":"那你們就要處理喔可是你剛剛跟我說你支持公投綁大選這是第一個情況那年底就會有九合一大選加上公投綁大選這是第一個困境第二個困境假設我在想像一現在網路上有非常多人在帶風向跟有相關於情討論相關幕僚可不可以讓我問完讓我問完因為第二個問題比較難"},{"start":5642.23,"end":5656.933,"text":"好 第二個問題第二個問題就是假設有人他發起一個運動叫做我假設年底真的有兩種票可以投一個是公投票一個是九合一大選票可是我只申請移轉不再期投票部分我只申請公投"},{"start":5657.834,"end":5679.416,"text":"的部分可是我不在我那個九合一大選我還是繼續在我的原戶口地方投然後呢我就開始在網路上製造一個輿論叫做是你們中選會為難我你害我只能放棄某一種選票因為可能我一個票在台北一個票在花蓮可是假設我當天又沒有辦法兩地趕著投票那他不去問他自己為什麼要操作這種行為"},{"start":5680.037,"end":5706.11,"text":"他就會問中選會假設您真的當選主委之後這絕對會是一個難題請不要說我可能過度惡意的想像我必須說現在的台灣社會確實有非常多人是刻意要製造混亂製造國內的不團結甚至在這種看起來像民生事務上給相關行政機關你們造成困難就算中選會是一個獨立機構請問被候選人被提名人你怎麼看 謝謝"},{"start":5707.851,"end":5734.902,"text":"首先關於公投綁大選的大是大非的問題他不是大是大非不好意思董事長我認為他是一個相關配套因為辛苦的是我們基層的選務人員就像您剛剛一開始有說他會動到非常非常多選票的規劃從2004年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選也都很順利的舉行了"},{"start":5736.858,"end":5760.65,"text":"2008年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選國民黨相對也提出兩個四個案也順利辦完了公投綁大選今天碰到的問題是2018的那一場災難因為那一場災難所以大家想說怎麼樣避免災難重現"},{"start":5762.079,"end":5790.738,"text":"我剛剛跟大家報告說 其中2018年為什麼是獨特的我也希望它是獨特的 不會再發生了那是因為它件數這麼多 十個然後又是在中選會公告一個月多一點的時間馬上進行投票 所以整個選務大亂所以在這種情況底下 我覺得"},{"start":5793.272,"end":5803.322,"text":"抱歉讓我這樣講西方有一句話不要倒洗澡水連嬰孩一起倒掉意思就是說"},{"start":5813.82,"end":5822.482,"text":"公投是重要的跟選舉綁在一起利益甚佳而且過去的經驗也證明說是可以沒有問題"},{"start":5823.957,"end":5848.674,"text":"所以我剛才進一步跟您請教因為我時間有限我等一下會被主席請下台所以我剛剛問假設有人立法院提案就要在今年大選的時候他真的就有公投題目可以一起投然後又有一群選民假設他真的要惡意操作製造台灣內部的分裂跟不團結氣氛那我就申請我的公民投票部分我可能在AD可是我的九合一大選我還是回到我的戶籍地"},{"start":5849.034,"end":5866.814,"text":"然後到最後說是你們中選會害他不得不拋棄其中某一種投票的權利請問我們怎麼預防這個問題我認為現在的困境就是各種荒謬的狀況真的都很有可能在台灣發生從立法院開始到很多不同黨籍的委員尤其是在野黨的委員"},{"start":5867.655,"end":5886.841,"text":"斷了製造非常多分裂跟惡意的這種對話跟論述所以我必須要提出這麼看似很荒謬的問題但是不可能因為只要是立法院提案或是行政院或是總統交付特殊的提案他就可以不用受兩年頻率這個限制是 我也很希望這種很獨特的狀況不會發生"},{"start":5889.002,"end":5905.577,"text":"但如果發生了呢我也希望不要發生那如果發生我也希望不要發生目前這個所以主委您聽被提名的聽懂我的意思了對不對我當然充分了解您意思中選會公告之後三個月目前新的法律規定是這樣子"},{"start":5906.4,"end":5935.477,"text":"對啊所以他只要在下個會期立法院只要有人惡意要操作這個題目我們立法院真的就可以提出一個公投提案然後逼你們中選會表態你們要不要支持這個公投提案讓他走入公投然後年底的時候就公投綁大選我們沒辦法處理政治問題中選會處理行務問題那所以我剛剛說嘛好那假設回到人民我剛剛的意思就是說我陳培餘的戶籍如果在花蓮我就回去花蓮投九合一可是我公投的題目我就把它移轉到台北我住的地方"},{"start":5935.882,"end":5958.645,"text":"那最後我創造一個輿論跟氛圍就是是你們中選會害我不得不拋棄其中一種選票因為就是在去年藍白惡意主導公投綁大選硬要這樣通過所以我認為更多的惡意操作都是有可能的那我基於一個負責任的民意代表我認為我有需要跟被提名先討論這個問題當然相關的惡意的做法可能不是"},{"start":5959.065,"end":5977.607,"text":"在您的想像當中但是我現在就先提出這個疑問當然我相信後續的很多討論跟配套假設在事件發生之後真的要拜託你們假設你們都能夠成功通過被提名然後成為中選會的委員當然這就是你們要頭痛的事情但我想我身為一個民主的後輩過去看您非常多民主的成就"},{"start":5977.947,"end":6000.545,"text":"我必須要在這裡跟您報告過去這兩年來在這一屆立法院確實就很有可能有相關惡意的操作那甚至有相關的支持者就予以配合他真的就會出現我的公投票在台北而我的九合一回到花蓮然後我就說是你們中選會害我只能投其中一種票以上這是我給您的建議好 我們會留意這方面的情況好 謝謝"},{"start":6002.891,"end":6014.934,"text":"謝謝我們感謝陳培宇執行我們現在吳石瑤立委執行謝謝主席辛苦了有請我們有備提名人現在有備提名人"},{"start":6030.526,"end":6032.708,"text":"我想我破題非常清楚當政治越紛擾的時候"},{"start":6049.464,"end":6078.306,"text":"中選會的選務就要越公正超越黨派而且要守憲合法這是每一個從政人員我想未來大家有機會如果通過同意權我們在宣誓的時候的誓詞就是於誓以至誠恪遵憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使職權所以超越黨派跟守憲合法是重要的下一頁"},{"start":6080.321,"end":6097.775,"text":"我這邊列出來私藥自己認為的成功的選務的三要素他當然要是公正的他也是要效率的他更要能夠變明這是選務成功的三要素我也認為中選會的委員的四個要件獨立行使職權"},{"start":6099.116,"end":6128.102,"text":"基於專業而且要能夠公正更要首先合法我的選務三要素跟中選會委員的四要件我們未來的這個主委提名人游老師應當都認可吧有沒有補充的完全認可好謝謝我要跟您報告思堯在努力的面向不談政治中選會有很多可以做得更好導入design thinking不曉得老師您對於design thinking有什麼樣的理解"},{"start":6130.72,"end":6157.111,"text":"Design Thinking沒關係 我來替您說明好了賈伯斯曾經說Design is not how it looksDesign is about how it works也就是Design Thinking不只是大家說設計美學事實上它是以使用者為切入點讓整個事情更有效率而且可以解決問題"},{"start":6158.669,"end":6175.842,"text":"所以我曾經因為台灣設計研究院是思堯在任內催生的一個新設的國家的組織透過設計的導入來攪動我們的公共政策也提升公共服務的效能跟品質所以設計院成立之後我們去跟很多部會敲敲門"},{"start":6177.063,"end":6191.602,"text":"我也帶著設計院去向前主委李敬勇先生敲敲門希望能夠導入Design Thinking讓我們的選務更進步更親民更有效率所以這是我當時2021年拜訪李前主委的時候來下一頁"},{"start":6193.106,"end":6222.486,"text":"而我們改變了什麼我希望未來的中選會的委員們都能夠持續來推動吳思瑤催生中選會CES設計院投入我們改革了選舉的很多的更進步更變明也更美學的這些做法第一個在投票動線的優化左邊是before右邊是after他更讓大家在有限的空間的移動更有效率就是design的導入"},{"start":6223.786,"end":6248.002,"text":"他在選舉公報的優化上 過去很多人說選舉公報要這麼細膩 排版就是非常的unfriendly所以我們找了設計師design thinking以後after是在後面非常清楚讓大家可以一覽所有候選人他的政見相關的學經歷這是設計導入的正向成果 下一頁"},{"start":6249.636,"end":6268.284,"text":"設計導入呢還包括這些標識系統的革新越美越清晰不會永遠都是標凱體不要永遠是中華民國美學而這樣的選舉美學我們獲得世界級的Good Design設計獎獲得亞洲最具影響力的設計獎"},{"start":6269.444,"end":6274.126,"text":"也獲得台灣的經典設計獎所以我希望未來的委員們都能夠持續的來優化這些design thinking導入我們的選務下一頁當然還包括 圈選票處我們真的也讓它更簡潔 更俐落 更好看而不是數十年如一日我們小時候真的投票就是這樣到現在立法院自己的圈選票處還是長一樣"},{"start":6294.796,"end":6308.22,"text":"是可以革新的我想先就這個正面的分享給大家我想主委大家應當都可以如果後續需要思堯很樂意再串聯設計界跟中選會合作主委未來的主委OK嗎我非常的"},{"start":6314.122,"end":6339.323,"text":"因為司法委員剛剛有繞英文我覺得這個就是中選會未來需要的中選會未來需要我是一個進步改革主義者所以任何能夠進步能夠改革的都是好的事情選舉更有效率選舉更美學選舉更變明然後大家對於選舉去投開票所的心情可能也好起來很好"},{"start":6341.304,"end":6365.775,"text":"讓我再講一句我沒有想到我在今天來立法院可以看到這些新的觀念我簡直是Unbelievable所以立法院是有認真問政優質進步的立委而不是只有毀憲亂政的黨團很好下一頁當然不在即投票是今天的重點我剛剛講的選舉的三要素"},{"start":6366.195,"end":6380.567,"text":"公正效率跟便民提案的民眾黨團顯然只著重在降低選民投票成成本的那個便民的思考但是對於公正性跟選舉的效率他會造成選務的混亂甚至影響秘密投票甚至"},{"start":6381.247,"end":6404.083,"text":"也或多或少有境外借選風險增高的疑慮產生對於整個投票民主制度的信任危機所以呢絕對不能先求有再求好我們都支持行政院的版本您剛剛也說公投先行嘛好這是我們共同立場我們希望未來大家一起來捍衛這樣子的做法下一頁而以"},{"start":6404.895,"end":6425.486,"text":"我們行政院去徵詢了這些執行者選務機關的代表對於不在籍投票欠缺配套的狀況之下是all say no21縣市認為現在可以上路的是0個縣市甚至連民眾黨提案黨團他們自己執政的新竹市也認為不可能"},{"start":6427.907,"end":6436.814,"text":"所以呢過半的縣市也都支持行政院的版本公投先行我希望我今天要多花一點時間為什麼要跟主席多爭取一點時間因為民眾黨團的不在即投票他們就是這一屆立法院的壞習慣近乎二讀啊"},{"start":6444.841,"end":6463.439,"text":"委員會沒有討論啊直接不翼而決啊很有可能這週搞不好禮拜五又拿出來表決了所以今天有這個機會跟大家討論我就是希望能夠把這些數據告訴國人告訴社會台灣沒有一個縣市的選務機關認為不在即投票現在可以上路"},{"start":6463.979,"end":6490.61,"text":"NO所以我們就要審慎公投先行是多數的共識下頁而我們以投票意願這是我做的其實台灣的選舉投票率都是七成以上對於這些已經有不在籍投票有不同的可能是電子郵票可能是境外投票不同的行使的這些不在籍投票的國家台灣的投票率都是高的"},{"start":6491.11,"end":6509.685,"text":"除了南韓 南韓有他這一次總統大選不同的政治社會經濟的背景所以說不再投票並不是等同於高投票意願的這個思維我要在這裡論述 在下一頁更重要的是 未來這是大家的事情我們要辦一個讓人民滿意的選舉"},{"start":6511.072,"end":6519.34,"text":"而你看看台灣目前選務的滿意度2024年總統立委選舉84%的人民滿意給各縣市的選委會跟中選會拍拍手2022地方選舉滿意度83.2%2020總統立委選舉滿意度86.9%唯一一次就是剛剛未來的這個主委候選人說的"},{"start":6537.396,"end":6557.089,"text":"災難的2018的那一次公投房大學滿意度是28不滿意度高達68.6%這更要讓我們看到人民的聲音好我跳到我最後一個主題好嗎對不起因為有民調專家我還是想問一下這一題主委"},{"start":6558.792,"end":6566.754,"text":"我一直叫您主委他未來的主委你認為在台灣中共競選境外勢力競選的嚴重嗎有這麼難回答嗎我坦白講作為一個嚴謹的政治學者來講我要回答的是說感覺上很嚴重"},{"start":6586.178,"end":6598.011,"text":"事實上政府沒有找到非常多的證據來證明它很嚴重所以我覺得我們應該審慎地去評估這件事情因為主席站起來證據在這裡 證據在這裡看清楚"},{"start":6602.446,"end":6618.943,"text":"法務部公布中國借選的手段境外資金的借選網路選舉的賭盤跟認知作戰假訊息的操作2024年被偵辦的依反滲透法的案件境外勢力借選117件287人這個不是證據嗎 主委 下一頁"},{"start":6626.317,"end":6639.833,"text":"而國民黨黨主席的選舉是自己自家的人跳出來批評的我就不再贅述了中國的借選變本加厲我們就是要欲提從寬料敵從嚴下一頁"},{"start":6643.735,"end":6659.098,"text":"各國都有韓國加拿大澳洲美國印度甚至在美國這種民主的國家中國可以利用製造假駕照的方式大量的協助中國的僑民去投票假駕照的方式"},{"start":6659.739,"end":6686.695,"text":"所以世界各國面對中國的借選都在進行ING的防範主委 我們不要掩耳盜鈴您是民調專家 我問您一個專業的問題現在都有民調禁制期在選舉前公布的日期您覺得現在是幾天 您知道嗎10天您認為如果要調整 同意嗎未嘗不可"},{"start":6687.675,"end":6704.173,"text":"未嘗不可 那調整到幾天是可以接受的幾天好您的我尊重 台灣是民主社會現在國民黨立委要調變三天啦太危險啦 太危險啦我們回到前一頁"},{"start":6705.868,"end":6720.12,"text":"我們看看喔中國受益記者與退休教授捏造9次不實民調遭判刑司法判刑張顯耀先生涉嫌受中國指示發布講民調介入選舉遭起訴這都是司法偵辦換言之為什麼66%民主國家有選舉的民調"},{"start":6723.123,"end":6723.343,"text":"太短"},{"start":6747.498,"end":6770.254,"text":"太短嗎所以就專業論專業我覺得我們今天做一個非常好的示範沒有政黨立場我們超越黨派就專業論專業我們期待每一個委員都是獨立的專業的首先合法的以及能夠公正行使職權的最後一個提醒您提醒主席拍謝下一頁公投的那個這一個"},{"start":6773.496,"end":6779.772,"text":"國民黨提出修公統法要用公民覆決來推翻憲判主委你認為呢"},{"start":6781.392,"end":6809.717,"text":"這會是一個高度爭議性的問題所以我剛剛說中學會委員要守憲合法不問黨派守憲合法是基本的底線憲法78條司法院統一解釋憲法之權憲法訴訟法38條所有的憲法判決人民各機關都要服從而人民就包括公投行使的這些主體人民釋字185號也說明了不容挑戰用任何方式來推翻憲判"},{"start":6810.237,"end":6835.906,"text":"公投法第二條也規定公投的實施要遵循憲法的規定我要提醒大家未來的立法院一再的毀憲亂政要用公投法的修正來凌駕憲法未來這個難題可能會落在各位委員你們在審查公投案的當下我要提醒不看黨派不看顏色守憲合法是我們每一個人宣誓就職"},{"start":6838.7,"end":6847.929,"text":"的誓詞請大家謹記在心好謝謝游老師我今天多次稱呼您主委不好意思僭越了被提名人游盈隆先生我們一起加油謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳思堯委員質詢我們請黃建斌召委質詢抱歉讓你等很久謝謝"},{"start":6869.185,"end":6878.691,"text":"好 謝謝召委 主席我們先有請我們貝提名人游盈隆先生上台貝提名人游教授"},{"start":6882.697,"end":6898.354,"text":"老師好黃委員好老師好 老師因為目前還在這個人事審查階段嘛所以本席就先稱呼為有董事長其實我相信台灣的民眾對你都不陌生你過去擔任過民進黨副秘書長還有海基會副董事長那在政壇的"},{"start":6900.052,"end":6920.889,"text":"經歷非常豐富是我們的大前輩後來擔任台灣民意基金會董事長也經常發布民調跟時事的評論很多見解其實常常引起回響像是去年民進黨發動主導大罷免結果大失敗的時候你就非常直率的說大罷免是惡意的在排除在野黨"},{"start":6922.977,"end":6941.162,"text":"但是它不會被選民所接受然後你更直接的批評說民進黨推動大罷免毫無正當性那可以說是民主之詞那本是要對於你雖然出身民進黨但卻有足夠的勇氣來說出民眾的心聲並且給予我們執政者中肯的這個建議這件事情我們想要你格鬥的這個困難"},{"start":6942.322,"end":6967.967,"text":"那尤其身為現在身為中選會主委的這個被提名人擔任這樣的角色就是必須要能夠超越黨派然後克尊中立那帶領我們中選會發揮本來應該要發揮這個超然獨一的這個功能因為在過去我們中選會的中都被人家下面加一個新被批評是中心的中這個很一樣他不是中於人民是中於執政黨所以"},{"start":6969.071,"end":6983.864,"text":"舉例來說在大罷免期間很多立委辦公室都發韓文去中選會希望能夠提供一些相關的資料那中選會都用行政流程的理由然後一拖再拖就有這些不願意給立委提供給立委的這些資料"},{"start":6984.685,"end":7008.041,"text":"甚至都還沒有經過中選會的這個會議的審議通過就霸團跟這些媒體都有辦法先拿到然後接下來就是在網路上公開然後帶風向那發生這樣的情況就是相對是非常明顯有違反這個中選會這個有違反這個行政中立甚至有泄密這個嫌疑那這也是為什麼中選會長期以來形象一直不好的這個原因之一就是因為他雙標讓他認為他雙標沒有"},{"start":7010.822,"end":7034.471,"text":"做到這個客手超然獨立這個立場因此本席也希望說如果未來老師有順利成為中選會的主委一定要無往出眾那秉持客觀中立勇於對執政者提出建議說真話甚至批評的這個勇氣這是我們大家符合大家對你原本的這些期待那接下來本席要針對溫泉中有關於不在籍投票的議題來跟您討論"},{"start":7035.356,"end":7057.242,"text":"就是你在問卷中的回應是說不在即投票涉及憲法保障人民參政權擴大政治參與意義重大你舉雙手贊成這點本席給予肯定因為你的態度非常清楚明確就是說當你也聽到說不在即投票當然還有許多行政跟技術上的問題需要來克服那"},{"start":7058.777,"end":7082.93,"text":"這個但是問題是身為選務機關的選務主管機關應該要站在守護人民投票權當出發點那努力去解決問題克服困體才對所以因此本席也希望說如果老師你就任主委的時候能夠更進一步積極的來推動不在籍投票特別是針對這個偏鄉還有原住民地區來優先實行那為什麼本席會這樣講因為"},{"start":7084.574,"end":7101.843,"text":"我來住台東 台東就是一個偏鄉我們很多人都在外面工作 求學 很多的原因所以在每次要回去投票要花很多的成本這成本不只是交通上的成本 包括時間上的成本跟主委分享一下 像台北到台東坐火車四個小時"},{"start":7102.663,"end":7119.864,"text":"那到台東市 你要到其他的鄉鎮可能還要一到兩個小時的時間他可能投票就要花一天的時間這個是都會區沒有辦法想像你可能早上出去投票三十分鐘 人家知道有什麼事情在外面講話要花一天的時間這是偏鄉很大很大的投票上的困難那像我們2024年的總統大選"},{"start":7121.909,"end":7148.752,"text":"的投票率我們全台東縣是62%相較全國平均是72%我們才有10%因為先本市才太廣所以會影響到人民投票的意願這是本市支持不再投票最主要原因那希望我們在外工作這些台東的子弟或讀書的學子能夠也能夠享有跟其他人一樣投票的權利不會因為距離影響了投票的意願最後我也要再呼籲一下游董事長就是說"},{"start":7149.272,"end":7172.529,"text":"如果未來立法院審核通過你擔任中選委的主委我想也請你務必要保持過去一直保持的這個客觀中立勇於對執政者提出健眼的這個勇氣並持續地推動不再急投票落實憲法賦予人民的平等參政權也守護我們偏鄉民眾投票的權益謝謝博文請問董事長是不是可以來做到"},{"start":7173.469,"end":7196.17,"text":"當然 我覺得我剛剛已經講了不在即投票是世界的潮流 社會也高度關注身為一個政治學者也好 或者是一個知識分子也好我舉雙手贊成 但是我們還是要非常謹慎面對讓它循序漸進 不要追求一步到位否則會帶來很大的災難"},{"start":7197.857,"end":7215.906,"text":"對我們一起來努力啦 這可是真的 剛才剛才講的那些感受的地方我們剛才譬如要放鬆幾年那可能真的大家沒辦法 可是我也發電量所以我充分了解謝謝主委很正面的答覆 那我們一起加油那謝謝謝謝我們的備體兵人 謝謝召委 謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃建斌召委質詢我們請蘇巧"},{"start":7232.392,"end":7238.257,"text":"書面喔 好來 蘇巧惠 蘇巧惠不在 我們這裡有提名有委員抱歉 我想說我們的夢幻學生沒有看好 召委 我們議會同仁 請我們中選會被提名的人我們的主委我們的游老師 游教授"},{"start":7261.781,"end":7280.467,"text":"首先恭喜你啦被提名人但是我發早上很多人的爭議還是未來在網路上的假訊息包含不再去投票這是未來你當主委你要去推動要去承擔因為過去的九二一"},{"start":7282.681,"end":7298.868,"text":"過去的九合一上上界就是一個亂象那亂象的話你當一個主委你整個選舉的步調以及規劃都要很妥善現在整個中選會在這幾年"},{"start":7300.929,"end":7327.8,"text":"其實我們中選會我也是很肯定因為這幾年真的改變很多 國民黨的心目中真的有徹底改變但是未來不再去投票這是還要好好的去規劃還有在網路以境外的那個假訊息的問題假訊息的問題我認為主委你應該是一個學者出身應該對這個問題 你要怎麼去"},{"start":7330.519,"end":7354.725,"text":"第一時間你要怎樣去耗資怎樣去開發怎樣去下架這是未來你要做的是不是主委這一點你來做說明好不好謝謝吳委員的指教假訊息特別是在網路的時代的新奇是所有民主國家必須面對的巨大的挑戰"},{"start":7356.024,"end":7383.024,"text":"怎麼樣在假訊息衝刺之下能夠維持選務的公正性能夠讓所有的候選人還有選民都能夠獲得最好的保障這是中選會或是任何國家的選務單位必須面對的問題所以未來如果針對這個部分來說我相信中選會同仁"},{"start":7385.456,"end":7395.457,"text":"這方面經驗是非常豐富但是我們面對的是一個瞬息萬變的世界尤其是AI的時代所以"},{"start":7397.045,"end":7422.823,"text":"中選會怎麼樣能夠去面對這個問題中選會自己要有所節目但同時中選會是一個行政單位也需要立法院的強力的支持給予他 賦予他能力 賦予他資源讓他能夠應付這一個高度複雜而且充滿不確定性的年代"},{"start":7425.655,"end":7445.539,"text":"我們主委我們提名人真的你說這樣回答因為早過去中選會每次的選舉大多都是有一些網路的誤導以及境外的私立介入但是那時候很多都是反應中選會但是中選會還是沒作為"},{"start":7448.598,"end":7475.435,"text":"等到要有作為已經選舉完了這對候選人是非常的不公平所以這一點我要拜託我們未來的諸位這點一定要記著雖然是說我們要確保每一個好選人他們的反應例如說第一時間的反應我們都要立即的去處理這樣不做好選人他受到這真的是不公平啦"},{"start":7476.878,"end":7504.243,"text":"這一點 我再請教你 你說不在一起投票這一點 我聽剛才建平委員在執行你也是以我舉雙手贊成嘛那未來實施的時效是什麼時候目前中山會建議是這樣就是說從公民投票開始實施"},{"start":7506.408,"end":7531.953,"text":"從單一的全國性公民投票開始實施之後逐步地累積這方面的不在籍投票的相關的經驗降低它的弊端然後一步一步地推進到全國性的選舉包括總統 立委 甚至到地方的選舉這是需要一個過程 一段時間"},{"start":7532.933,"end":7548.591,"text":"不是立刻就去做事實上中選會也沒辦法決定我們立刻就去做中選會還是要遵循立法院制定的法律然後我們才能夠去依法行政但是中選會"},{"start":7550.252,"end":7573.561,"text":"秉持選務機關的立場也有責任和義務提供給立法院最充分的資訊這個可能面對的困難是什麼問題是什麼我們的建議是什麼我想這是中選會應該去做而且能做的好 謝謝我們當然啦我們中選會大家都期待嘛要有作為嘛"},{"start":7574.802,"end":7584.648,"text":"這是大家共同的期待以及目標吧好 謝謝 請委員那我請行政院秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":7591.687,"end":7597.131,"text":"委員長 委員長 現在全國 因為我看我們的媒體在報導我們的沙石的問題廢棄物的問題 現在是非常的嚴重所以說在這個部分 應該是我們在中央要跟地方政府來做協調"},{"start":7613.406,"end":7625.563,"text":"包含說每一管區 他們都可以說設置一個掩埋場或是你說停台北港 就是說每一個地方也不要說讓砂石運到各縣市 這樣說變成一個"},{"start":7628.696,"end":7656.747,"text":"流竄又是一個亂道的問題所以說這個博文因為現在大家都反映說都是中央規定什麼都推給中央這對我們中央非常的不公平所以我認為行政院應該找地方政府大家來設置要怎樣來處理包含我們的填海照路包含我們的港口"},{"start":7657.652,"end":7674.586,"text":"港口旁邊很多要有我們的後櫃一些大型的工業區這都可以來推動委員跟召委可以給我差不多三分鐘來報告跟說明好不好這三小時的事情可以分三方面來跟大家報告"},{"start":7675.669,"end":7701.155,"text":"GPS的部分啦 現在中央的政策是你可以用中央無關系來進步或是環境部的GPS這可以進入 第二有很多地方原本就有用GPS 無關系手機或是車機都可以進入 我們用GPS雙軌制的方式讓能夠載運沙石土方的車子能夠上路去載 這第一部分第二部分剛才委員在追尋的"},{"start":7703.575,"end":7711.761,"text":"戰智場的部分 現在中央加密集在跟地方開會在協調 中央會找從北到南八個戰智場"},{"start":7713.533,"end":7737.822,"text":"包括台北港 台中港 漳濱工業區台南有一部分那高雄這邊也有這個南興計畫的土地我們中央找八個站置場希望地方也能夠進來這個協助管理車可以走 也是有地方可以走這是第二部分第三個部分是就簡正便民的部分以前是這個"},{"start":7741.656,"end":7754.969,"text":"土方出來 要先經過土資廠再到最終處置廠但是土方有些依照法規 也是有加料現在可以從這個出廠直接到最終處理廠又或者是在台中經過分析70%的部分是可以"},{"start":7758.172,"end":7786.225,"text":"賣掉的也能夠就地來做合法的交易我們從這三個面向來做還需要一些時間中央可以跟地方做的合作公共工程也好各種私人的工程也好能夠在合乎法律的規定之下讓土方的全流向的管制穩健的上路還需要一點時間中央地方會合作政府民間也會一起合作依從委員報告"},{"start":7788.146,"end":7811.083,"text":"好 謝謝你說一些可再利用的這種的大家都不要說一味的全部都規定的實施的這樣我就去解決他們的問題不然現在很多你說每次我們都會去都在推動建設包括公共工程甚至也是土方沒有武器處這一點就是他們都來帶我們陳情所以說我今天你 秘書長你有來特別幫你提起"},{"start":7817.262,"end":7838.015,"text":"好 謝謝有什麼歡迎再麻煩委員跟行政院來講我們會繼續拍片 謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳祁銘在這裡要讓我們的秘書長說那刷牌也要刷牌更加到位 更加關心 更加了解因為這個萬事失去 真的很不好來 我們請劉淑萍委員質詢"},{"start":7849.241,"end":7858.113,"text":"好謝謝主席我現在請被提名人主委被提名的游盈隆教授游教授"},{"start":7866.1,"end":7890.239,"text":"郭教授您好您不只是政治學者你本身也曾經當過陸委會的副主委對於兩岸關係的法律體系還有國家忠誠的問題應該都有非常的了解我今天想要請教的一個制度性的矛盾就是陸籍配偶在台灣的戶籍滿了10年之後"},{"start":7891.44,"end":7918.63,"text":"依照兩岸人民關係條例呢他是可以參政的並且呢他也是經過中選會審查了具備了一個候選資格那另外呢但是我們看到是在國籍法依照20條呢他當選後呢在他的就任前或是一年之內呢必須提出放棄中國國籍的證明或是依照其他的法律規定來辦理否則就撤銷資格了那內政部長劉世芳呢他也主張可以參選但就任前"},{"start":7921.611,"end":7925.896,"text":"再用國籍法來去檢驗他的忠誠我認為有三個問題第一個是法律適用的問題兩岸人民關係條例是個特別法在跟國籍法發生衝突時是否應該優先適用呢那內政部 劉部長的說法是否已經有擴張裁量權"},{"start":7941.091,"end":7969.83,"text":"異越法律授權的這個問題那我先把問題說完那請這個被提名人游教授你就等一下再一起回應就我時間有限第二個問題就是參政公平性的問題那一個人可以參選後來當選但是最後是要高度仰賴對岸去要去出具這個文件然後才會被撤銷可是事實上這中共不會發的那是否會侵害到他的是陸配的一個憲法平等保障的這個參政權"},{"start":7971.171,"end":7998.713,"text":"那第三個就是說國家終審如何制度化這是民進黨非常重視的這個問題那終審應該的審核是在選前明確可預期的法律要求之下但是還是說他還會依據選後補件那如果拿不出來就撤銷那因此就想說如果要在最後的這個在這個相關的法律還沒有整合之前你是否認為就終選會應該主動的面對這樣一個法律衝突請劉教授回答 謝謝"},{"start":8000.996,"end":8025.23,"text":"這的確是一個非常棘手的問題對中選會來講一方面來講 站在保障參政權的立場這個中選會會樂見所有的國民的參政權都被完整的保障但是兩岸關係是高度的複雜"},{"start":8027.581,"end":8054.99,"text":"相關的法例到目前為止也沒有就這一點有非常完備清楚的立法所以在這種情況底下就留下了一個模糊的空間這個空間內政部有內政部的主張中選會在這上面幾乎沒有去主張什麼的這樣的一個立場"},{"start":8057.076,"end":8064.139,"text":"但主觀上您作為一個學者作為一個學者我覺得兩岸是一個高度複雜的問題我覺得這個目前這樣的一個問題"},{"start":8070.379,"end":8086.789,"text":"你就是侵犯他的公平參政權嗎這是好幾個價值牽扯在這裡面所以即便是在過去多年以來有國民黨執政時代有民進黨執政時代但通通沒有去根本解決這個問題所以這問題遺留下來這問題坦白講對中選會來講要交給中選會去處理這個是中選會沒這個能力"},{"start":8099.051,"end":8115.258,"text":"所以你們未來就是草獨立機關就不處理了是嗎不知道 我的意思是說那這個部分你應該是行政院這個可能秘書長要去回應那我現在問的一個問題更重要的是那特別法跟普通法的這個問題適用你應該怎麼看法呢"},{"start":8117.867,"end":8140.831,"text":"根據法律學當然我們在座有很多法律專家特別法是優於普通法所以兩岸人民關係條例但是這兩者因為兩岸關係高度的複雜牽扯著非常複雜的歷史的因果這裡面可能會衍生很多很多的問題就選務機關來講選務機關並沒有這種職權去做這個讓"},{"start":8147.829,"end":8168.575,"text":"所有的人滿意的這樣的處理我知道被提名人劉教授你就是現在在一個審查期間這個問題應該是民進黨非常care的問題的那的確也是有它的複雜性但是這個比較全國的人民包括學者專家必須好好去針對這個問題去好好去針對大家的部分要知道它的公平性"},{"start":8170.595,"end":8198.971,"text":"還有再一個問題在於說我們看到的是國內移轉投票的問題國內移轉投票涉及到的是又是一個價值非常重要的涉及到公平的平等權跟自由跟秘密投票然後也涉及到國家的信任那我剛才也聽到是主委是不是您對於一般我們民眾黨是提出來是國內移轉投票請其他的政黨就是尤其是民進黨不要去特別的去汙名化國內的移轉投票那請我想要說那個被提名的你針對"},{"start":8200.454,"end":8204.486,"text":"這國內移轉投票的話 您的態度是支持還是怎麼樣我支持啊"},{"start":8205.37,"end":8229.74,"text":"我完全同意 但是我覺得不是一步到位沒錯 沒錯 我後面繼續問下去那這個部分我知道你也在你的這個對民眾黨的回應報告當中有提到說他必須按部就班因為涉及到國家信任的問題還有安全的這個秘密投票問題那你的意思是說從先從公投開始嘛對不對包括是從到選舉的到原住民的地方到中央是嗎"},{"start":8230.68,"end":8247.722,"text":"好那重點是相關的問題包括說我們就他的一個配套措施就是說他對於秘密投票有被破壞的問題還有對選票保管跟運送的問題那就這兩點你是不是夠可能如果你當中選會的主委你有沒有什麼後續的一個配套措施規劃或是想法初步的現在"},{"start":8248.683,"end":8270.539,"text":"我還沒有上任中選會主委啦不過我已經很努力的在了解相關的狀況我覺得技術上來講應該是可以處理啦否則這個像原住民的這個部分已經有了初步的大院也已經通過了相關的法律來解決這個問題我覺得"},{"start":8275.009,"end":8284.245,"text":"這個基本上是不會有大問題所以是基本上技術性沒有大問題是不是願意要不要做行政機關這部分要不要做的問題我想要講清楚的就是說"},{"start":8285.734,"end":8304.204,"text":"如果不在籍投票立刻就要實施在2026的這一次九合一地方選舉那是幾乎所有的人包括22個這個地方的選舉委員會就是各縣市六都都岐岐以為不可"},{"start":8304.944,"end":8330.412,"text":"所以應該要分階段然後實施之後能夠獲得社會的信心社會的信賴我們再來推展到選舉上面去所以大家可以預期如果您順利當選到中選會主委的話應該會提出中選會的版本半部就版了就實施可行性去進行嗎是我希望這樣子好 謝謝那另外最後一個問題這個主席先"},{"start":8333.014,"end":8351.49,"text":"包容一下好這地方就說您在您的民眾黨的回應的報告當中我提到說呢對於中選會對公投案的審查僅限法律明定要件不涉及到價值判斷不涉及到價值判斷那就是這部分嘛那請問是說如果是針對114年"},{"start":8354.113,"end":8381.015,"text":"在有送到中選會的就立法院的一個有公投案這樣子的案提到的中選會去做審查的時候這一個時候是針對說題目是您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決的政策呢這個立法院公投案假設您當時是一個中選會的主委您對於這樣子的一個案子是否能夠成案您的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":8382.376,"end":8395.759,"text":"我觉得那一个案子对中选会来说我事后了解中选会承受了空前巨大的压力要做出一个正确的决定是非常困难的"},{"start":8396.584,"end":8426.071,"text":"但是我們也要注意到中選會不是立法院提出了前部否決中選會也同意也處理了河山研議公投是的所以有一個通過一個不通過我相信上一屆的中選會委員會有他們的相當完整的思維但是主委被提名人我是問您的看法我是問您的看法"},{"start":8426.491,"end":8452.916,"text":"我的看法對 這個議題我覺得這是一個非常困難的問題您這樣狀況是 您的初步判斷因為這涉及到的是在程序上面這部分你是指的 劉委員我再把題目說一遍 您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一次決之政策那這個部分是讓民眾去決定"},{"start":8454.907,"end":8479.603,"text":"所以他如果過程當中的程序上面並沒有違反的話應該是讓民眾去決定公投的意思就是在這樣子沒錯 我充分了解你的意思而這正好也就是觸及了或凸顯了目前台灣司法審查權跟直接民選 直接民主之間的衝突"},{"start":8481.806,"end":8509.254,"text":"所以這個問題到目前為止還社會還不是完全了解但是我覺得社會可以廣泛的去討論是不是公民投票的結果不能抵觸憲判這是一個很嚴肅的憲政的問題我覺得社會可以去討論但是上一屆的這樣的一個裁決我現在也算半個當事人我不便表達意見"},{"start":8510.151,"end":8536.947,"text":"好 這樣好 謝謝至少我覺得這個被提名的劉教授您提出出來之後您知道在現在在審查期間包括也是你過去的在民進黨的黨員後來你退黨但是你就知道說你自己有一個這個學者的價值這個風範我是覺得已經建立起來就是有一個高度肯定但我希望說您如果被立法院同意的話你就繼續的在這個位置上面就是在跳脫到政治堅守到行政中立"},{"start":8537.347,"end":8565.251,"text":"然後也重建中選 各界對於中選會的這樣一個信任因為大家都覺得中選會那個中是中於執政黨的那個中然後也落實到法定選務然後保障人民的實質參與這對你的期許這一點請委員放心好 謝謝游盈隆就是游盈隆 不會改變好 我們期待大家一起有目共睹期待OK 謝謝謝謝 感謝劉淑檳委員質詢我們王宏威委員"},{"start":8572.011,"end":8577.399,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們被提名人游教授加油教授"},{"start":8583.083,"end":8604.505,"text":"好 游教授辛苦了我們委員好可以看到今天包含就是我們整個審查會裡面包含我們國民黨的委員對游教授也有相當多的肯定那我想請問一下因為游教授過去除了是政治學教授還有民調"},{"start":8605.426,"end":8633.022,"text":"那當然對於政治也有很多評論而且你過去長期當這個政府的烏鴉執政黨的烏鴉那譬如說在去年的大罷免的時候你有很多的評論你的評論是大罷免是台灣民主之恥而且你曾經痛批有兩大戰犯死不認錯就是包含民進黨黨團的柯建民總召還有沈伯陽委員"},{"start":8634.443,"end":8657.7,"text":"那你有提到就是大罷免是災難性的民主內戰那當然其實你的評論也不止於此所以你這一次在被提名的時候外界其實有很多人是驚訝的那甚至有一種說法是說你可能可以得到在野黨委員的票數但是民進黨內部很多人對你有意見"},{"start":8658.661,"end":8681.129,"text":"所以您認為在這一次的整個的提名的表決過程裡面你目前評估你可以得到民進黨全數的票數同意你嗎這部分我不敢去評估不敢評估 所以有可能會有人跑票"},{"start":8682.009,"end":8699.439,"text":"我不知道好 那另外請教一下因為我剛剛特別提到了一些大罷免在這個過程裡面很多人就開始談到一些我們法律跟一些制度上的問題在之前我們通過了就是在聯署要付身分證 銀本"},{"start":8700.885,"end":8716.759,"text":"民進黨政府有來提出復議但是呢並沒有拿去釋憲所以這個應該已經是可以確定的這個行政院也沒有拿去釋憲然後我想請問一下我們還有一個版本就是呢"},{"start":8717.299,"end":8738.212,"text":"加一版本就是你的被罷免票數要多過就是被罷免要多過你之前之前的當選的票數才能夠確定被罷免那我不曉得游教授你對於這一個的修法版本你個人的意見是什麼 你同意嗎謝謝委員 我的看法是這樣第一個"},{"start":8748.14,"end":8762.371,"text":"家父身份證這個是加嚴罷免權的刑事坦白講在某個程度上我是贊成的因為全世界各國國會議員是沒有什麼國會議員罷免制度的"},{"start":8767.813,"end":8786.053,"text":"沒錯啊所以就這個部分來講我純粹基於學者的立場我是覺得加嚴我是可以同意的那第二個就立委提罷免同意票需高於當選票我覺得這兩個不能夠相"},{"start":8787.722,"end":8797.087,"text":"不能夠不能相提並論對 不能相提並論所以你對於加1的版本你個人有疑慮"},{"start":8798.26,"end":8824.273,"text":"我覺得那個不合理好 你覺得不合理好 因為我們今天是審查必須把一些就是我們現在修法的過程要就教於你另外我看到你回答就是我們立法院各黨團的就是有關於罷免的部分我們在罷免的過程裡面有很多的不合理其中有關於是政治獻金因為我們自己是身為被罷免人"},{"start":8824.833,"end":8850.707,"text":"那因為我們是被監督的對象但是相對在政治獻金上就出現了一個極不平衡的狀態如果在選舉裡面不管是多少人參選每一個人都是受到政治獻金法的一個規範但是我們在這一次被罷免裡面其實整個的政治獻金是非常非常混亂的"},{"start":8852.729,"end":8873.566,"text":"我看到你的回答是說你也認為即便是罷免者包括領銜人也好或罷免團體他的政治獻金也應該受到一定的管理和規範所以我想請問你這個部分你要不要再講一下就是有關於政治獻金的規範你個人的看法是怎麼樣政治制度是嚴禁的"},{"start":8878.448,"end":8893.165,"text":"不是從一開始就完美無缺所以經過不斷的實踐實驗之後該修的是應該要修我個人的意見是被罷免"},{"start":8894.775,"end":8918.224,"text":"的人要受到政治獻金法的限制但是提罷免的人目前沒有任何的這方面的沒有任何規範所以我覺得未來是可以考慮修法雖然政治獻金法的主管機關並不是中選會但是這涉及了選務選舉跟罷免的公平性"},{"start":8918.924,"end":8942.193,"text":"的確 因為這樣所以我才表示意見好 所以你也認為這個應該修好 另外一個在這次罷免裡面有一個完全回憶於過去的做法這次中選會也被我們認為是極為不中立而且有政治辦案之嫌就是有關於在聯署告發聯署 錯假聯署的時間"},{"start":8946.114,"end":8957.197,"text":"過去事實上去年大罷免並不是第一次也不會是最後一次但是中選會過去歷次針對有關於罷免的錯假連署每一個包含韓國瑜 王浩宇 陳柏惟 黃婕 所有的"},{"start":8966.599,"end":8992.605,"text":"都是在投票之後然後去做告發每一個都是在投票之後去做告發唯有一次例外唯有一次例外就是在去年的大罷免大家可以看到去年大罷免整個去告發錯假連署然後去偵辦錯假連署大概都是史上這個最為激烈的一次那這中間就是跟中選會的告發時間有關"},{"start":8995.686,"end":9011.218,"text":"那到底這個告發時間應該是在聯署期間呢或者是在投票之後不要去影響最後的罷免結果其實應該要有一套制度的但是中選會當時就是完全違反過去的做法當然就被我們認為說這個是有政治辦案的嫌疑所以這個就是中選會的業務了"},{"start":9022.526,"end":9046.744,"text":"所以我想請問 我們主委被提名人如果你擔任主委 針對未來夾是有這個連署 錯假連署其實這個連署還不只是罷免 還有選舉也會有這個你是不是應該建立一套 一個可長可久的制度而不是隨著不同的情境而改變"},{"start":9049.793,"end":9066.523,"text":"對我來講這個時候要回答這個問題的確是困難的怎麼會困難我還是要回答這個問題這個一點都不困難吧我還是回答這個問題我自己也參選過所以我也知道其實選舉期間為了避免影響選舉"},{"start":9068.467,"end":9097.258,"text":"即便有嫌疑人涉嫌犯罪检调司法单位也都是事后侦办事前也有一些但是基本上不会这么做所以我不了解大坝棉去年实际的状况他们是怎么样做成决定我不了解那是一页沧桑史我觉得事后可以再去检讨改进"},{"start":9098.116,"end":9109.05,"text":"我特別指出這個這個其實完全是技術性的竊選完全是技術竊選有非常多種因為我時間到了不耽誤下面時間謝謝謝謝我們感謝王宏威委員資訊我們現在習新穎委員"},{"start":9124.636,"end":9129.988,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請這個主委被提名人請阿佑教授"},{"start":9137.951,"end":9155.406,"text":"这个我们游教授好那本席想请教您这个您应该知道现在AI时代的来临那AI的身为技术也已经成为全球民主的威胁了"},{"start":9156.207,"end":9183.176,"text":"那您被提名为这个中选会的主委所以今天本席的质询要为我们的民主宪政找到疫苗那我们台湾民主的选举绝对不能被破坏也不能被不信任台湾的民主如果被破坏那就不战而亡这点您认同吧完全赞同对 所以近年来AI深维技术您"},{"start":9184.617,"end":9203.694,"text":"這個是不是有所觀察或者是您的了解是如何現在全球民主都受到AI身為技術的威脅很多國家都發生過類似的案例您有沒有一些體會或觀察的心得當然有我覺得"},{"start":9204.875,"end":9218.896,"text":"AIA所帶來的新的時代假訊息的衝刺氾濫這是所有的民主國家必須要去面對的而且是一個挑戰也可能是一個噩夢但是應該要嚴正以待"},{"start":9221.007,"end":9237.232,"text":"对 那现在我们的选罢法的机制大部分是事后追究责任那没有办法挡住选前特别选前24小时 48小时的这种假讯息的洪水"},{"start":9238.012,"end":9267.01,"text":"针对这一块本系想请教您是否支持您如果就任中选会主委之后能够主动推动这个选罢法的修订应该要纳入一些预防性的条款例如强制要求一些平台他一定要标记标记我这个平台展现出来的影片或是照片图像他是AI生成的内容而且"},{"start":9267.91,"end":9295.658,"text":"也要賦予中選會針對經過鑑識是身為的影音或是圖像呢有權下令做緊急處置針對這一塊您的看法是我的看法是這樣中選會只是一個不到60個人的一個單位長期以來這個努力於顯霧的行政那對於這一個"},{"start":9298.639,"end":9315.652,"text":"當前這麼巨大的一個時代的巨變所衍生的這些問題恐怕不是中選會單獨可以承擔的當然…所以我本席第一個主要的是說你如果擔任主委你是不是你可以推動一些修法"},{"start":9316.472,"end":9339.066,"text":"有法依據法令那相關單位就可以來進行那你中選會是很重要辦選務必須要公平公正甚至你要讓整個的選舉過程合乎民主程序所以您是否會主動推動選罷法的修訂納入針對現在AI身為的一些預防性條款"},{"start":9339.85,"end":9354.423,"text":"我覺得這是義不容辭會嘛 對應該這麼做但是必須要建立在這個非常好的扎實的研究的基礎上面然後才能夠提出來"},{"start":9356.885,"end":9382.496,"text":"當然 但是現在很多實務上非常的需要剛剛您也已經有稍微提到就是說整個的修法如果只靠中選會可能會遇到相關部會互踢皮球我想您大概也有預期所以本席也想請教您上任之後如何確保您跟NCC速發部的一些實質的合作"},{"start":9384.439,"end":9411.067,"text":"我們主觀上當然是願意的就是很多事情事實上就是跨部會必須要去共同面對的那是否願意發起跨部會的這種專案小組那來制定一套可操作的這個預防機制而不能讓我們整個民主選舉民主制度的這個防護網呢最後被破壞在中選會的職權範圍內"},{"start":9413.283,"end":9428.344,"text":"該怎麼做就怎麼做而且要全力去做好 這個大原則方向很好那現在就是說您如果就任後整個的修法如果來不及可是"},{"start":9430.015,"end":9457.33,"text":"馬上選舉就到了這個AI的假訊息爆發怎麼辦那中選會會不會有一些行政備案譬如說透過行政命令要求平台在選舉期間加強審核以及跟事實查核中心進行24小時的熱線等等這些問題我猜您大概還沒想過據我知道這個中選會這方面已經有一套做法"},{"start":9458.371,"end":9466.908,"text":"就是说上次我们才质询我们的召委王召委也很认同的我不知道中选会送来了没"},{"start":9468.726,"end":9487.695,"text":"我不曉得中選會送來沒有我現在是被提名人對 沒關係那您就表達您的立場我覺得就這個部分來講所謂身為的這些照片這些影響它是直接影響到選民跟候選人所以"},{"start":9488.976,"end":9505.921,"text":"中選會能夠做的大概是怎麼樣在第一時間降低它的傷害而不是根本上解決這個假訊息的問題中選會要主動積極建立這個綠色通道讓這整個能夠不受影響因為那樣的一個問題的存在是"},{"start":9506.821,"end":9535.966,"text":"跨政黨的噩夢不是只有哪一個特定政黨對 我們不是為特定政黨這個選舉的公平公正很重要那主委 所以這個AI的偽造像洪水猛獸我們希望預防勝於治療那中選會一定要主動修法不然我們的民主會淪為科技戰場的犧牲品這一塊我們希望如果您能夠順利擔任主委的話這個部分一定要落實而且堅持住好不好"},{"start":9536.246,"end":9547.357,"text":"我們嚴正以待 嚴肅以待謝謝謝謝我們感謝習慶雲委員執行我們家葉研資委員麻煩請那個游教授游教授"},{"start":9566.704,"end":9590.549,"text":"右岩好右教授好 這樣跟右教授請教一下在我們選罷法裡面有規定如果要罷免的話要一年之後才能夠進行那你覺得當初選罷法會這樣子規定的原因是什麼為什麼不是立刻選完之後就可以搞罷免一定要一年後我猜想立法者大概也意識到不要讓當選完之後立刻面臨"},{"start":9592.193,"end":9611.123,"text":"當選人被罷免的情境不要說這個讓人家輸不起就搞罷免應該是這樣吧總是要讓人家做個一年看看做得好不好再決定要不要罷免但是在這個李靖勇前主委在這邊我也問過他一樣的問題他說沒有不可以"},{"start":9611.992,"end":9633.778,"text":"現在的法律是沒有不可以換句話說如果我選上了輸給我的人輸不起他可能覺得說在選舉過程當中有什麼失誤或他覺得他想要再拚翻盤的機會他在敗選的隔天他跟他的團隊就可以來搞罷免這個是我們現在法律規定就是這樣嗎您的看法"},{"start":9635.23,"end":9659.813,"text":"我看怎麼詮釋啦我覺得選舉結束之後如果有國民不滿選舉結果不滿當選人所以他會對他講出很多負面的話說要罷免等等等等那是屬於言論自由的範圍言論自由當然都尊重但是如果是由敗選的那一方或其政黨"},{"start":9660.794,"end":9681.628,"text":"在背後煽動發起的你覺得這有符合民主的常態嗎因為以目前的法律的規定事實上也是一年之後才能夠禁止罷免像中選會才能夠可是問題是輸的人他可以在輸的隔天就開始規劃 煽動然後搞大罷免"},{"start":9682.228,"end":9709.986,"text":"我們去年看到的狀況就是這樣雖然民進黨嘴巴不講是他們發動的但柯建民總召就很誠實嘛他在接受媒體訪問的時候就說在投票的隔天還是隔兩天就去找過賴總統啊這在他媒體訪問公開講的啊怎麼透過罷免去扭轉國會的席次嘛在我們那一區包括我們國民黨很多立委的選區都一樣啊發動罷免推動罷免最用力的就是輸的那一方嘛我那一區就是這樣啊"},{"start":9710.831,"end":9729.608,"text":"他的我在那個罷免說明會我有公開資料啊他輸給我的那個立委的服務處主任沒多久就成立了一個就加入一個這個罷免的社團在推動然後不然就是想要取而代之的民進黨的人主要在推動嘛那這是民主常態嗎你覺得是嗎"},{"start":9730.928,"end":9744.354,"text":"當然不是 這是政治問題啦對啊 那問題是法律規範不嚴謹或中選會的按住就會造成這樣反民主的狀況出現嘛所以如果說您當主委當然中選會是辦選務的機關但您也是洞見觀瞻啊"},{"start":9749.556,"end":9777.248,"text":"如果是您的話您覺得要怎麼去結合您的未來的職務讓這種反民主的狀況繼續發生我們只能夠依法行政就中選會的角度來講但是以我作為一個政治學者的角度來講我長期以來反對在國會議員的層次立委來存在一個罷免制度因為全世界先進民主國家沒有哪一個國家的國會議員"},{"start":9779.502,"end":9805.255,"text":"美國的聯邦參議員 眾議員當選之後面臨被罷免沒有的 制度上就不存在這種可能性但是台灣也許這個就是說在孫中山先生的思想底下然後去制定的選舉罷免創制復建那個那個是這樣子因為我們國家不可能沒有罷免因為走到這一步不可能沒有罷免但是"},{"start":9805.935,"end":9830.98,"text":"應該是怎麼去完善罷免的制度比如說現在因為罷免的門檻比較低它只要兩成五所以就會讓選輸的人覺得有機可乘怎麼透過大罷免去扭轉剛剛產生的民意這就是我覺得制度造成的漏洞但是大罷免結果其實對社會非常傷害像我們那一區就出現非常多的對立包括家庭"},{"start":9832.558,"end":9858.648,"text":"長輩跟子女之間也因為立場不一樣罷免的仇恨的煽動彼此不和甚至有女兒離開家庭都有我覺得這個是當初發動大罷免的人他可能沒有顧慮到那麼多但這絕對不會只是政治的問題這是整個社會的問題它會影響到整個社會因為我覺得這個事情是非常嚴重沒有正當性的罷免那時候罷免我的被推出來的領先人用了一個理由"},{"start":9859.699,"end":9868.583,"text":"2023年葉元之怎麼樣怎麼樣所以要罷免葉元之我2024才做立委就是說因為剛選完就要搞罷免他也找不出什麼理由他就是這樣隨便亂講這個就是罷免制度的漏洞"},{"start":9872.186,"end":9889.531,"text":"我們對未來的主委或是現在的游教授充滿了期待覺得到時候如果在一些法令的解釋 詮釋甚至改革上面希望說您可以更積極的去讓我們的台灣更民主 更健全我一定會這麼做好 謝謝"},{"start":9899.305,"end":9920.845,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝葉延之委員質詢在這被提名人游一龍先生之說明跟答詢已經結束了被提名人游一龍先生可以先離席"},{"start":9922.298,"end":9931.549,"text":"我們休息十分鐘繼續我們再來請胡博遠先生來審查謝謝大家大家辛苦了"},{"start":10558.82,"end":10567.602,"text":"我們現在繼續進行比提名人胡柏諺先生跟說明跟詢問請中選委員比提名人並為副主任委員胡柏諺先生說明謝謝"},{"start":10591.648,"end":10612.745,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位委員我是胡博焱很榮幸有這個機會受行政院的信任而被提名擔任這樣的職務的工作那我也希望這個是一個這幾年來我們都看到台灣其實不只是在立法院在每個地方政治的抗爭性都非常大我想"},{"start":10613.726,"end":10632.553,"text":"政治不是只有抗爭也有很多討論跟協調這件事情而我們其實這個委員會呢目前的七位提名人基本上來講來自各個不同的黨派其實以目前的地方選委會的態勢是一樣的那說實在的相比"},{"start":10633.086,"end":10659.767,"text":"我們內政委員會可能處理的像內政部的事情或是其他部會中選會是一個行政動能很小那嚴格來講處理的事情也比較單純但是雖然它是單純的但是這件事情其實處理不好就會動搖國本的這事情那但是呢中選會其實剛剛主委提名有提過說我們其實原而編制也不過才60個人就像地方選舉委員會也不過才200多個人"},{"start":10661.266,"end":10686.326,"text":"所以呢我們雖然有七個提名人但是大概只有主委跟副主委需要兩個值日生來負責擦黑板倒水的這樣的工作這個就由游老師跟我來擔任但是重要的是這七個人其實在未來在決定事情上面以及現在的四位委員在未來決定事情上面來講在這個委員會當中而言每個人的決定的份量是一樣的而且這也是體現這一個國家在處理選舉事務當中而言"},{"start":10690.209,"end":10701.315,"text":"各黨各派在處理事務當中都有應該要發言的地位而我們希望藉由這一次的審查可以讓我們國家可以走得更順利謝謝謝謝我們這裡電視台有他的詢問詢問質詢"},{"start":10721.006,"end":10743.355,"text":"謝謝主席我們請被提名人胡伯彥教授胡伯彥教授被提名人好我想剛剛你有說明就是這一次的話基本上是由各黨派來推薦也是我們進入到立法院將近兩年來第一次的人事審查"},{"start":10743.823,"end":10772.266,"text":"是由各黨派來推薦我們當然也希望說能夠有這樣一個好的結果那當然今天有幾個題目要就教於您那首先是在我們提問的一個問題當中針對中選會是否有權審查立法院的公投提案那您的書面回答得非常清楚就是依公投法第15條第二項立法院交付案件排除人民提案審核的程序"},{"start":10772.748,"end":10797.939,"text":"就法律解釋上應該沒有審查的適用你甚至說立法院交付本為政治決定在邏輯上不該由中選會進行合法的審查所以我在這邊請您先把你的立場講清楚你的意思是不是只要立法院三讀通過交付到中選會這樣的公投案其實中選會的角色就是依法辦理呢"},{"start":10798.618,"end":10814.724,"text":"我認為一件事情就是就這個法律條文解釋邏輯上面來講因為他排除了第九條到第十三條的適用所以在這個時候如果中選會審查必須要回到一件事情上面來講就像以前所講的就是請你間斷回答是不是一個政策是不是因為在您的報告裡面在這個選擇上面來講就會是如何而且不是只有這個條文因為我們還有防衛性公投"},{"start":10824.287,"end":10844.933,"text":"的問題就是如果這是您的回答嗎所以是不是就是應該遇到這個有立法院三路通過交付中選會的這樣的一個公投案中選會的角色就是依法辦理對是好那所以不能再用什麼非重大決策或是合法性把它擋下來是嗎"},{"start":10845.643,"end":10864.302,"text":"我認為這個問題的憲政問題應該是要由大法官來去解決那接下來也是我要請教您的就是您認為如果真的有憲政問題的話那您覺得中選會雖然是獨立行政的一個機關但認為行政權的一部分並非憲政機關所以憲政上的爭議"},{"start":10865.458,"end":10889.782,"text":"依照憲法應該交由大法官來處理這是您的回覆所以針對這個部分中選會它不是憲政的機關所以中選會如果過度介入只會讓選務複雜這也是您在回覆中提到的所以我要問得更直接一點就是中選會直接駁回公投案是不是嚴重的越權呢也僭越了大法官的職權"},{"start":10891.038,"end":10913.725,"text":"我其實在之前的研究報告有提出來一件事情是說中選會如果直接把人家駁回的話應該在法條裡面規範讓他立即可以去申請大官釋憲由大法官去解決所以中選會不可以駁回嗎我認為如果從我剛剛的研究報告立場上面來講從這個立場其實是可以讓他駁回但是後面接續的就是馬上"},{"start":10915.005,"end":10925.948,"text":"那個憲法解釋的問題可是中選會沒有權利嘛沒有權利駁回我們的公投案嘛如果照你剛剛的論點的話我們應該就是要辦理嘛那如果認為有問題的話再送交這個把憲政機關請申請釋憲的問題嘛對 所以這個部分的話就是好那其他機關是不是有辦法權利解釋違憲的問題"},{"start":10939.352,"end":10964.214,"text":"其他機關對行政機關可不可以解釋違憲的問題實際上來講每個行政機關基本上來講都是在依據憲法來做成決定對所以說好但是呢最終而言決定有沒有違憲的問題的時候就要變成是大法官對那所以說針對這個軍人加薪跟提高警校人員所得替代率的法律是否違憲其實應該不是行政院長說了算吧"},{"start":10965.034,"end":10983.286,"text":"應該是要申請這個大法官釋憲由大法官來決定那在還沒有宣判違憲之前是不是就是合乎憲法在您這個法律學者的這樣子一個我覺得這個憲政爭議而言應該要交由大法官來處理但是因為行政院認為他是違憲的違憲之前就是合乎憲法嗎"},{"start":10984.066,"end":11000.448,"text":"行政院認為它是違憲就像定出來的某些制度內立法院也有可能認為它是違憲的在你是法律學者的這樣子的一個立場你是不是針對這個部分就是只要還沒辦違憲之前就是合乎憲法只要還沒辦還沒有判違憲之前是不是就合乎憲法"},{"start":11001.277,"end":11007.305,"text":"跟委員報告就是每個行政機關他可能會認為他這個法條是違憲的所以最終他可能會去申請實現的去做主意的因為你在國會改革的審議階段你多次的公開批評在野黨的修法是違憲擴權可是當這個中選會駁回我們的公投的時候"},{"start":11019.58,"end":11043.856,"text":"你卻沉默了你卻沒有站出來講說這個部分依法的話是應該不該駁回應該要依法宣證所以我覺得站在這個立場的話我覺得被提名人你好像就是只有在監督在野黨不監督執政黨敢宣出來的就是表現了一個這個好像是側翼的行為而且你的書面也回答了就是中選會是違法但是你的沉默卻證明了你也不敢得罪民進黨所以當有這樣的一個狀況的時候"},{"start":11045.936,"end":11052.514,"text":"我們要 你要如何說服我們這些被審 這個審查委員你未來能夠超然獨立的行使你的職權"},{"start":11053.615,"end":11080.988,"text":"我在2015年的時候我就說我要跟蔡英文劃清界限了這件事情其實報紙都有報導過這次的審查我想你要說服的是這一次被審查的委員他們的想法那另外一點呢就是我們在第一題就有提到的就是有關公投綁大選如何順利的進行那您的回答是說只要把場地租大一點分流做好工作人員增加然後提高行政效率"},{"start":11081.928,"end":11107.307,"text":"亂象 107年的亂象就不會重演這是您這是您回覆的是嗎那你這樣是不是就在說明了就民進黨這幾年說公投這個107年的公投綁大選選務亂是因為這個因為公投綁大選的關係所以你現在就是在證明說當時民進黨這幾年的說法純粹就是為了政治算計而做這樣子的說謊的一個行為嗎"},{"start":11108.928,"end":11132.542,"text":"107年確實當初2018年確實公投榜大選的那一天大選日的混亂狀況這個大家都看得出來是因為選務沒有規劃好嗎所以你才會提出來說接下來你就可以把選務怎麼規劃好所以你剛回答是這樣嗎但是那一天確實就是有十個十個公投案那就是因為表示你的人力還不夠嗎你分流沒有做好嗎這是你在回答中"},{"start":11132.922,"end":11145.873,"text":"可以解決的問題的方式所以說我們這邊是不是也就代表說以前上一次的2018年的公投中選會沒有辦好是因為人的問題是因為人無能而不是因為並大選"},{"start":11148.075,"end":11171.043,"text":"所以你在回答問題我覺得在2018年確實選務工作做得不完善所以說是因為這樣所以這幾年民進黨一直在講說公投綁大選造成選務的混亂其實不是因為公投綁大選事實上是真正能夠展現民意真正讓每個民眾能夠有機會去表達他自己的意志的時間所以我想您在這個整個回覆中也已經"},{"start":11172.271,"end":11200.933,"text":"已經這樣子充分的回答了說您針對公投綁大選覺得這個選務的部分其實的亂象不是因為綁大選而是因為行政座有沒有做好嗎是這樣嗎因為其他國家有些國家確實是沒有綁大選那我認為說如果真的要綁大選我們就必須要把選務工作處理做正因為在你問題的一些言論跟立場事實上你是反對公投綁大選的那當然今天我在研究報告是寫我支持"},{"start":11201.873,"end":11218.841,"text":"對 你在你的 但是你看喔你在這個自由時報的這個對 專欄裡面我寫你是這個空頭綁大選只會毀了公投本質喔這是你以前的說法 對那我們希望說不要因為今天是未來來擔任副主委所以你就改變你過去的說法到底我們要相信哪一個你"},{"start":11219.241,"end":11237.435,"text":"是同意公投綁大選的你還是反對公投綁大選委員因為我們現在法條已經改了我們未來就是要因應一件事情就是要綁大選我們要預防的一件事情就是2018年的那個狀況出現希望您不要是因為為了要擔任這個副主委這個職務而去出賣您原來的一個這個"},{"start":11238.796,"end":11250.606,"text":"自己的一個學術的一個良知還是希望您能夠如果未來您有幸能夠擔任副主委的話一定要秉持公正 超然獨立的立場來行使職權謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝徐益臻委員質詢我們現在有時間要委員質詢"},{"start":11272.05,"end":11299.547,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們被提名人副主委被提名人胡老師胡教授教授首先我想要先分享喔有一個就是被歐巴馬總統任命的第一位女性的這個司法部長哈佛的第一位的女性院長叫做Elena Kagan2010年歐巴馬提名她那這位美國的女性大法官他有一句名言"},{"start":11300.339,"end":11321.068,"text":"我觉得想要分享给大家也许胡教授您也非常的了解这句名言呢他说my politics would be must be have to becompletely separatefrom my judgment意思是我有我个人的政治意识的形态我有我个人的政治"},{"start":11321.795,"end":11342.64,"text":"形象或是我的政治主張但是這跟我的判決是完全兩碼子事他是完全會抽離的當他成為大法官的那一天他勢必要專業的去判準他的每一個判決而且依據憲法所以他的politics每個人有自己的politics"},{"start":11343.18,"end":11361.605,"text":"我有您有每一個委員都有但是當大家被提名成為中選會的委員未來渴望上任的時候請切記超越黨派超越個人的政治意識形態首先合法是必要的我相信胡教授非常同意這位Elena Kagan她的主張"},{"start":11362.375,"end":11391.324,"text":"其实也是物资要我个人的主张所以说下一页我刚刚在垂询这个主委被提名人游云龙先生的时候我也提到成功选务的三要素就是公正效率跟便民而中选会委员的四要件独立专业公正跟守线守法守线守法非常的重要唯有回到守线守法的基准我们才能够超越自己的politics"},{"start":11391.804,"end":11415.299,"text":"自己的政治意識的型態您同意嗎同意那麼在首先守法的這個範圍裡頭我對於剛剛因為時間有限游盈隆被提名人主委的被提名人他一直長期在論述的他個人認為這個罷免是災難的這件事情我尊重他的言論自由但是如果今天"},{"start":11416.658,"end":11443.921,"text":"成為中選會未來要獨立行使職權而且是首先守法的主委的時候回歸憲法的精神就非常重要憲法第17條所規範的人民有選舉罷免創制復決之權這是中華民國的憲法所以人民依據憲法所提出的罷免我希望過去的游盈隆學者跟未來的游盈隆主委"},{"start":11444.406,"end":11452.882,"text":"他的主張勢必要首先合法要脫離他個人的politics那您怎麼看這個命題呢您怎麼看待人民發起的大罷免"},{"start":11453.547,"end":11481.209,"text":"包委員我這個意見其實跟委員一樣但是我不要我其實某些方面也是認為說罷免制度其實在很多國家現在目前其實是被檢討的但是我們確實在憲法17條就寫著我們有罷免的權利這個是我們沒有辦法去否定的一件事情因為它寫在憲法裡面人民委員會跑來跟你講說我就可以罷免誰所以說首先守法很重要"},{"start":11482.757,"end":11511.603,"text":"個人作為學者的身份可以有自己的政治主張但一旦被提名成為國家的中選會的委員的時候首先手法就是重要的基準請尊重人民依據憲法所發動的基本公民權而我更要說大罷免是人民發動的而大惡罷才是國民黨發動的吳斯堯我本人就是受害者就是當事人我到現在還是中華民國史上被罷免者"},{"start":11512.093,"end":11531.774,"text":"的最高被偽造連署的份數2674份這份記錄負面的記錄還標記在我身上我非常的遺憾這是被發動大惡霸一方用違法的方式來僭越了來踐踏了憲法珍貴的人民父權我要在這裡提出"},{"start":11532.702,"end":11544.919,"text":"下一頁剛剛提到不再急投票我也都說即便要變名也要讓公正選舉跟選舉的效率不打折所以大家都有共識公投先行下一頁"},{"start":11546.007,"end":11572.514,"text":"各縣市政府有這樣的共識選務機關有這樣的共識所以請支持行政院的版本下一頁那回到這一頁就是說公投綁大選2018年的選務混亂只有2成8的人民同意而高達6成9的人民不滿意這就告訴我們公投綁大選需要有很好的機制配套未來好現在立法院修法通過"},{"start":11573.334,"end":11596.12,"text":"未來可能公投綁大選會再上路但是選務機關的責任就是維持它的運行不會混亂不會造成人民在選舉投票行使的不便利性那我就要問來下一頁您個人確實有主張但是我認為這個論述還是要再精確一點"},{"start":11597.202,"end":11611.739,"text":"依據公投法第10條中選會就主管機關對於不管人民發動的罷免對不起人民發動的公投或者是立法院發動的公投你還是必須去去審核他是不是符合法律跟憲法的規範對不對"},{"start":11613.137,"end":11636.784,"text":"我是認為他還是要有初步的審核那如果有問題就直接讓他去憲法法庭去做但是現在謝謝你提供未來立法院可能在修法的一個方向但目前並沒有您所說的這個條文就是說如果在中選會在認定在審核上的判準有所異議應當由憲法法庭來做最終的審議這是"},{"start":11638.504,"end":11654.279,"text":"未來法律所沒有的而這可能也會衍生另外的問題因為憲法法庭在審議釋憲的過程還有一定的程序那人民所發動他的對於部分的主張或是立法院的公投案本身也許在時程上沒有辦法等"},{"start":11655.34,"end":11682.896,"text":"這也會有其他衍生的問題但回到現在的法律的規範如果公投綁大選要讓他能夠不至於造成選務的混亂就是我們必須精確的讓合法首先的公投案才能上路不是嗎某些方面是否則從107年到115年我調閱了中選會的資料人民發動的公投案有69案您知道中選會駁回多少案嗎"},{"start":11683.872,"end":11711.259,"text":"不知道35案成立的34案換言之有一半的比例中選會的這個把關還是需要的因為他需要在首先合法的規範公投法第二條就規範了全國性公投跟地方性公投都有適用的要件而且他要符合憲法規定所以在人民發動的公投案裡頭從107年到15年有一半以上經過中選會的把關"},{"start":11713.479,"end":11724.585,"text":"有一半成立一半駁回這會避免了過多的公投你沒有去審核他是不是合法合憲你也必須去把關否則公投綁大選天啊2018年那種噩夢幾十案又來了同樣的立法院的公投案"},{"start":11732.748,"end":11745.422,"text":"立法院的公投案也是要守憲合法所以就像我說的用公投法的修正來推翻憲法的解釋是可以的嗎是可以的嗎"},{"start":11745.953,"end":11767.069,"text":"我覺得這個會觸犯到法治國原則的要求所以我是建議我非常理解您在法律上的一些理解但我認為發言要非常的嚴謹我也希望社會不要錯誤的解讀副主委您認為未來委員針對公投法是否合法合憲合規完全沒有審核把關的權利這非常危險"},{"start":11769.651,"end":11796.629,"text":"你在審核的不是政治的意識形態而是它有沒有符合國家公投的制度的法律的授權跟憲法的授權 您同意嗎同意我給您再最後一次去更正調整您的說法好嗎對於未來如果您當選通過立法院的同意權針對人民發動的公投案跟立法院所發動的公投案您認為中選會獨立機關要進行什麼樣子的把關我認為的把關都是屬於最低限度的把關"},{"start":11797.949,"end":11825.206,"text":"最低限度的不要過分的去干涉我們整個議案裡面內容避免中選會過度的逾越這件事情但是我想最低的限度的要求其實應該是可以達成的守法守憲這就是我們共同的底線好嗎依法行使職權我提醒所有的被提名人沒有政治意識形態而是依法守憲做我們該做的事情這樣你就能夠有很強的底氣不受政治所威脅"},{"start":11826.021,"end":11828.103,"text":"好嗎我們一起加油謝謝胡教授謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳斯亞委員質詢我們現在稱召之委員"},{"start":11847.268,"end":11872.119,"text":"多謝主席有請副主委被提名人 胡教授胡教授 雖然有委員有提到但是我對於您曾經投書媒體認為這個公學綁大頭會讓這個公投認為政黨這個對決的工具那甚至就是喪失了這個公投的這個本質這件事我還是要再請教你請問您現在對於公投綁大選還是這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":11872.719,"end":11881.28,"text":"我會認為如果可以的話讓它其實是不同天其實是一個可以的決定的選擇但是我們現在是要面對的問題是"},{"start":11882.594,"end":11902.115,"text":"法條已經修過了他就是要同天投票但是胡教授我了解你認為公投綁大選可能會讓政黨來主導這個公投議題造成公投失焦可是我的想法剛好跟你相反公投基本上這個公投綁大選基本上是強迫政黨或政治人物他必須他不能迴避他必須針對這個議題去做他的主張或是表態"},{"start":11905.518,"end":11928.325,"text":"那就是說讓選民也能夠有機會知道這個參選人他對於這個議題的想法跟態度根據這個議題他來做出他的選舉的決定換句話說您擔心的是這個公投會影響這個政黨會影響公投可是我的看法剛好是相反的我認為是人民做主的公投"},{"start":11929.125,"end":11936.997,"text":"反而會去影響這個政黨因為我相信台灣選民的數字是越來越高啊他們不見得是根據顏色去投票他們會根據議題看議題然後就來做這個選擇胡教授您贊同我的說法嗎我贊同"},{"start":11944.249,"end":11958.475,"text":"那過去的經驗就是我想你也非常清楚這個單獨舉行的公投他的投票率非常低資訊流通是有限的那結果往往被高度動員反而有可能讓政黨更容易去去做主導"},{"start":11959.936,"end":11979.407,"text":"綁大選你至少可以讓參與率是提高的參與率是提高讓公投的結果更能夠去反映整體選民的整體意志那您剛剛也一再提到修法已經通過了那我認為今年年底的地方選舉很可能很可能就是同時會舉辦公投那我要請問"},{"start":11980.627,"end":12000.643,"text":"這個胡教授因為您過去是反對的當然你現在要尊重這個法律已經通過的事實可是您能夠如實的去執行立法院通過的修法嗎你怎麼樣說服立法院還有台灣人民說你會按照這個修法你會公正如實的去把選務辦好你怎麼來說服"},{"start":12001.263,"end":12026.246,"text":"包委員我們在2018年因為公投綁大選的混亂之後因為當天有10個公投案確實造成一些混亂其實中選會在這邊其實針對整體的選務有做過改革所以在分流制度上面來講其實是已經達成了所以只要公投的案件數不會太多的話我相信其實當天可以秩序其實是可以被掌控的"},{"start":12028.647,"end":12046.276,"text":"我們是擔心說您會不會如實我會如實去辦好這件事情你的主張 我也同意你個人的主張跟這個作為有時候是可以分開的但是你的責任就是要遵守你的責任我想請教你對不在籍投票的看法民眾黨所提的不在籍投票其實是限於台灣島內 國內"},{"start":12048.697,"end":12067.288,"text":"這個移轉投票我們希望讓這個事實上你過去參與的時代力量目前還是也是這樣主張的請問胡教授您現在是支持國內移轉投票嗎我支持國內移轉投票你支持移轉投票這樣我們可以幫助就業就學的因素而不用這個周遮勞頓回到這個戶籍地來投票那但是"},{"start":12071.57,"end":12099.509,"text":"目前不再去投票是多數國家的一個做法連這個中南亞國家包括印尼菲律賓他們都做了那你知道前年印尼大選我們台灣的警察出來幫助幫助這個這個秩序的維安所以這個是我是覺得很丟臉我們可以幫助別的國家結果我們到目前為止還不允許還不允許我們的國民能夠做這個這個移轉這個投票所以我想說是剛剛胡教授您說您是支持的"},{"start":12100.45,"end":12104.782,"text":"那我們法過了以後 你也會按照這個去辦理對不對我們"},{"start":12106.041,"end":12130.624,"text":"立法院法律通過之後中選會會依據立法院所通過的選罷法等相關法規或公民投票法來處理我希望吳教授能夠遵守法律因為我們現在看太多期行政院長沒有遵守法律立法院通過的法律把它視為空氣形同空氣那我再想請教你一件事受刑人權利有民間團體認為非常關注受刑人跟羞辱人的投票權"},{"start":12131.525,"end":12159.825,"text":"那過去中情會認為根本不可能在在監投票那這等於完全剝奪了受刑人跟收容人的他這個憲法賦予的權利那我知道胡教授您在11月去年你也主持過在收容人投票權研討會擔任這個主持人胡教授你認為收容人跟受刑人有沒有投票權我先問你有沒有投票權有投票權只要他們沒有被褫奪公認他們就有投票權那如果有你要怎麼落實呢"},{"start":12160.492,"end":12175.252,"text":"我覺得在投開票所的設置上面來講我們因為要兼顧到公開化以及安全的問題這個部分其實我覺得不管是中選會或者法務部其實應該更努力來解決這問題因為他們有些人不是不在急有些人其實急就在監鎖"},{"start":12176.894,"end":12202.171,"text":"你提到的還是技術面問題嘛你在歐洲嘛歐洲他們就是很多人就有很多國家他就設了這個在間投票嘛這個你們你過去所屬的時代力量他們也是一直用這樣做例子嘛所以胡教授你認為是可行的嗎我認為可行這一次就可以辦了嗎年底的選舉就可以辦了嗎這個我不確定這個可能要跟幕僚機關以及各省市選委會來辦但是從我的觀點來講我一直都認為這是可以做的"},{"start":12206.155,"end":12217.698,"text":"可以做就要去做啊我也會去從我的觀點我也會去推行這件事情謝謝謝謝吳教授謝謝我們感謝陳昭芝委員質詢現在中途我們不需要休息繼續開會因為現在12點了在這裡我們鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":12248.117,"end":12265.225,"text":"福教授好原住民選舉前的困境沒有聽過吧我有聽過原住民議題我其實也有熟悉謝謝你的關注秘密投票"},{"start":12266.994,"end":12290.328,"text":"原住民很多的選舉沒有秘密投票的一個情形雖然憲法規定的很明確無記名投票是方法行之但是因為原住民從原鄉到都會區工作的非常多然後遷积的也很多"},{"start":12291.263,"end":12319.099,"text":"所以相關的這些事實上在都會期原住民的人口數已經達到50%有社會籍的已經達到50%左右所以這樣的一個情形之下一個投票所只有一個人的就有以平地原住民來講就有966人一個投票所兩個人的以平地原住民講來說就是1034"},{"start":12321.127,"end":12345.306,"text":"如果包括三個人的總共有2900多將近3000人那我們看山地原住民山地原住民也是一樣也有類似這樣子情形一到三人的總共有3235人所以他投票給誰一開票就知道他投票給誰所以他就變成說"},{"start":12347.805,"end":12365.896,"text":"會考慮是不是要不要去投票會有這樣的一個情形所以這樣的一個情形怎麼樣去保障憲法徵修條文第十條第十二項保障原住民的政治參與政治參與除了參政權之外還有選舉權選舉權本席透過質詢請這個中選會要這個"},{"start":12375.939,"end":12400.956,"text":"解決秘密投票 質詢了非常非常的多次因為事實上是可以 不修法其實是可以的以公職人員選舉辦人法第57條第三項 原住民公職人員選舉得徵走實際情形 單獨設置投票所或在選舉區內辦理投票"},{"start":12403.789,"end":12430.869,"text":"事實上只有規定 但是一直沒有辦法落實所以本席不得不修法所以今年 去年12月26號三讀通過為保障原住民秘密投票權益 應單獨設置投票然後不受第17條第一項應在戶籍地投票之限制當初在修法的討論的時候中選會還是不支持"},{"start":12432.211,"end":12461.103,"text":"所以這樣的部分如果這個副教授能夠擔任副主委或者是其他的被提名人也能夠擔任委員希望落實這次的一個修正的條例可以嗎 可以接下來談不在己投票原住民族的不在己投票事實上最可以先實施的是"},{"start":12462.153,"end":12483.501,"text":"立法委員因為原住民的立法委員的選區是台澎金所以跟總統一起選舉所以原住民要實施不在籍投票是應該最優先來辦理是可以執行的因為我們每一個投票所都有我們的選民"},{"start":12485.27,"end":12505.878,"text":"都有投票所了就是移轉投票就很容易了因為每個台北市每個都有原住民的投票所所以這個部分是可以先實施的因為沒有實施所以造成我們原住民與非原住民的投票率的差異你想想看以3D原住民來講我們就講第11屆立委"},{"start":12507.546,"end":12535.312,"text":"差距13.83%投票率平地原住民是7%多這樣的一個落差就是因為太遠了我們看這個台灣地圖一個住台北市的鄉親他要到蘭嶼投票回去他的戶籍地就很遠不要說蘭嶼就到屏東或是到台東都非常非常的遠而且還要到山上"},{"start":12536.531,"end":12563.215,"text":"不是到了台東火車站之後 還要到山上所以這個原住民族的不在籍投票更是有它的一個需要性我看了這個印尼 在台灣我們的外勞 印尼的外勞在台灣都是 都投票所以在台灣投票在台灣還不只 不是只有在台北市每個縣市都有投票所"},{"start":12564.498,"end":12587.33,"text":"像這樣他們都可以受得到這樣的一個情形我們確實做不到我們真的是要加油所以這個部分也希望我們這個胡教授以及各位被提名人到了中選會之後能夠優先支持嚴肅民主的不在己投票 可以嗎可以 沒問題謝謝我們感謝鄭天才委員資訊"},{"start":12593.496,"end":12610.125,"text":"咱家習星雲委員 習星雲委員不在咱家省花卉 省花卉委員不在葉延芝 葉延芝 葉延芝不在"},{"start":12619.888,"end":12635.819,"text":"在這被提名人胡柏彥先生所說明和質詢的都已經結束完畢委員習新英提出書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":12641.357,"end":12649.721,"text":"再來我們比提名人的吳博言先生可以先離席可以先離席我們現在的休訓五分鐘"},{"start":12666.591,"end":12677.897,"text":"我們繼續國分前後繼續進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明價值詢問謝謝大家辛苦了"},{"start":12807.111,"end":12807.234,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":13060.815,"end":13066.638,"text":"來 繼續開會 進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明和詢答請黃文玲女士說明主席"},{"start":13077.857,"end":13092.868,"text":"各位委員各位在場的先進大家午安大家好我是黃文玲那這次非常榮幸的能夠受到這個行政院提名為這次的中選會委員的被提名人"},{"start":13093.368,"end":13105.019,"text":"那今天來這裡呢也是要跟大家來分享就是說我其實民國83年就考上律師那一直擔任律師到現在那在期間呢在2012年到"},{"start":13108.842,"end":13129.315,"text":"14年的時候擔任第八屆的立法委員那有短暫的時間在立法院那時候也是在內政委員會那期間呢我在過去從事這個律師的職務其實有辦理非常多的這個選罷法的案件包括會選案當選人這個資格不私認的案子還有"},{"start":13130.035,"end":13143.805,"text":"就是譬如說有假訊息的案件等等所以在實務上或許能夠提供給未來的中選會一些建言當然我本身在2004年的時候還有2014跟18也都參與過"},{"start":13148.548,"end":13168.503,"text":"立法委員的選舉及彰化縣長的選舉在選舉的過程當中當然就會有非常多的選務的紛爭我想我們主席也是身經百戰大家都也很清楚就是選舉可能會遇到的一些糾紛我覺得這一次的被提名人裡面"},{"start":13169.444,"end":13185.009,"text":"其實跟上一屆的感覺上好像比較多的出入因為上一屆我看實務界的律師有好幾位那這一次的被提名人裡面大部分都是學者專家而且都是憲政的學者專家那實務界的好像律師就只有我一人"},{"start":13185.669,"end":13207.825,"text":"那我希望說如果未來有機會擔任中選會的委員我們除了要讓中選會要保持他的獨立性中立性及公正性之外還要維護他的專業跟可信賴性那當然在這個過程之中選務的過程之中確實有非常多的可能會"},{"start":13208.525,"end":13224.542,"text":"涉及到紛爭的部分會影響到這個選務工作人員的部分所以未來如果有機會的話我們也是應該要來維護我們選務人員的尊嚴那以上那希望說就是能夠對這個中選會能夠有所貢獻謝謝謝謝 感謝說明我們這裡黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":13240.428,"end":13264.453,"text":"謝謝主席 我請被提名人請讓我們被提名人委員好 好久不見我稱呼您黃律師好黃律師很高興在這邊看到您尤其是您的父親是以前非常受敬重的中選會的主委我想中選會也好或者是任何選委會的委員都需要"},{"start":13265.373,"end":13282.334,"text":"移植相關的公正跟獨立性那民主選舉的過程裡面不是只有最後一天的結果我想過程很重要過程的公平包括更多的所謂的不孝方法或者是說有一些不正當的方式造成了選舉的不公"},{"start":13283.188,"end":13300.472,"text":"那我個人比較我看到你的問卷大概到大部分都有回答不過我今天要問的是根據有關選舉過程裡面其實最大的一塊叫做媒體不公媒體不公的部分在各個法律其都規定得非常清楚總統副總統選罷法46條還有公職人員選罷法49條在廣播電視"},{"start":13306.013,"end":13331.728,"text":"也從事選舉或罷免相關議題的論證新聞報導或邀請候選人罷免案提議人或被罷免人的參加節目要公正公平處理不可以有無正當理由的差別待遇但是這麼多年來我相信你也選過去我們只要是非所謂主流媒體的支持的對象大概都會在很多媒體中被消失"},{"start":13332.581,"end":13355.393,"text":"包括在我想去年的總統大選也非常的清楚2024的總統大選非常清楚的是某個藍媒 綠媒現在已經台灣人都有一定的既定的印象你會看到有一些藍媒看不到綠色的綠媒看不到藍色的那更糟糕的像台灣民眾黨我們是中間所以兩邊都看不到"},{"start":13356.834,"end":13369.631,"text":"這個部分我們曾經也提出過很嚴肅的控訴那NCC有回答說查無證據啦我們也有檢舉但是回去要給中選會所以我們就不禁要去查到在101年"},{"start":13370.888,"end":13393.858,"text":"在105年其實中選會都曾經對於媒體沒有邀請平衡報導或者是沒有邀請到這些所有的參選人而開罰的紀錄我想請問您您對第一媒體在選舉過程中沒有依法行事第二個105年到現在已經快10年了沒有塵埃任何一個媒體處罰"},{"start":13394.898,"end":13409.756,"text":"所以反而我們會懷念您父親當時當中選會主委的時候我們還有道德勇氣對媒體做相關的裁罰如果有這樣的案子我想知道您的想法跟您對於選舉公平應該在媒體上面怎麼樣來維護中選會的獨立性跟公正性"},{"start":13414.597,"end":13440.218,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想剛剛你提到這個部分其實我深受感同因為我其實我在2014年到18年這兩次彰化縣長選舉我就是以無黨籍的身份參選但是確實是媒體就是全部都把我們的新聞全部都消失被消失掉所以我可以感受到就是說就是選委會在這個"},{"start":13441.319,"end":13462.866,"text":"辦理選舉的過程之中其實它是必須要秉持公正客觀的態度而且其專業的部分那至於就是特定的媒體那他們是不是可以就針對這個部分就是被選舉人就是沒有做公平的報導的部分是不是應該裁罰的部分其實我記得我那時候有去抗議過"},{"start":13463.806,"end":13493.446,"text":"但是似乎是好像沒有作用因為他們認為那個是NCC的所以這就是我們今天中選會其實在101年曾經罰過當時是華氏在政見發表會之後沒有播出某個候選人的會後記者會被裁罰了20萬基本的該有的所以我認為中選會應該要有基本的就是法律的價值它的價值就是要維護選舉的公正公平"},{"start":13493.886,"end":13523.232,"text":"然後每個這個候選人都能夠在這個媒體上能夠被揭露我想大家都可能很清楚的知道這個公正性的確在現今的台灣媒體環境裡面做不到但是我相信中選會應該要做到中選會如果中選會還有道德勇氣的話我們十年來都沒有成過半子案子但是105年那時候還有某些節目只邀請特地的候選人還有"},{"start":13523.832,"end":13550.867,"text":"只邀請某些特定的沒有給予其他選區同樣的候選人相同的機會就被裁罰了40萬跟20萬這是我想中選會委員必須要秉持的一個中正的立場所以他們那個時候的中選會委員可能有道德勇氣才會做這樣的一個裁量所以我們也期待我們未來有機會擔任委員的話也希望能夠秉持這樣一個立場是 只要依法就好公平就好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13554.336,"end":13580.236,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝黃珊珊委員北提名人黃文玲女士在說明和詢問已經結束我們北提名人黃文玲女士可以先行離席我們休訓五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":13600.777,"end":13611.381,"text":"謝謝大家的收看"},{"start":13632.579,"end":13645.603,"text":"謝謝大家謝謝大家"},{"start":13673.537,"end":13673.557,"text":"來,請坐"},{"start":13678.372,"end":13702.382,"text":"那個要不要就是因為我們就就是就我們一個人一個人這樣看他的狀況但是我覺得就是"},{"start":13704.722,"end":13723.253,"text":"我覺得 我等一下去跟他溝通好了因為我們 因為目前的話我們諮詢人就我們諮詢人可以拖八分 等一下還要等一下我算一下 四分多 八分多"},{"start":13735.708,"end":13757.381,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13768.275,"end":13783.93,"text":"喔 可以可以 因為報告人是八分鐘 然後兩分鐘對 對 對 說明大概幾分鐘就三分鐘兩分鐘 沒關係 因為我也在三樓 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13791.954,"end":13805.708,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13820.623,"end":13850.452,"text":"然後再下一個說明完再下一個所以它還有一遍大概就是這樣我會聽到我前面講的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話"},{"start":13866.325,"end":13866.365,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13890.919,"end":13899.364,"text":"來 我們繼續開會我們繼續進行被提名人李立忠先生的說明和詢問請中選會委員被提名人李立忠先生說明"},{"start":13914.861,"end":13932.458,"text":"王主席還有各位委員還有我們張秘書長還有各位在座的先生跟女士我是李李仲那很高興這次被我們行政院提名為中央選舉委員會委員的被提名人那我在此報告那我們都知道民主"},{"start":13933.839,"end":13958.77,"text":"選舉制度乃是憲政秩序與民主制度的一個核心那它的公正性跟可信賴性跟穩定性直接關係人民對我們台灣民主的一個信賴的關鍵中央選舉委員會肩負了選舉與公民投票的規劃執行與監督的重任"},{"start":13959.935,"end":13986.054,"text":"其專業性 獨立性跟依法行政對於民主制度之健全運作具有關鍵的意義唐友信擔任中央選舉委員會一職個人將超越黨派以維護憲法精神確保選舉公平強化制度信賴為最高自我期許"},{"start":13987.659,"end":14002.521,"text":"然而 擔任中央選舉委員會委員並非權力之所在而是責任與信賴之所繼本人之抱負在於以專業 理性與公正"},{"start":14003.78,"end":14020.969,"text":"首先合法協助台灣建構一個經得起政治競爭社會檢驗與歷史評價的選舉制度為我們民主發展盡一份長期而穩定的力量以上報告謝謝各位"},{"start":14024.705,"end":14042.041,"text":"謝謝感謝說明因為沒有委員長去接訊所以我們的李立中的說明到這裡 提名人李立中先生可以先行離席我們休訓兩分鐘謝謝"},{"start":14047.498,"end":14057.107,"text":"有機會這樣議席議席要不然坐在那裡聽一些大家留意的意見這樣也很好謝謝 辛苦辛苦有機會這樣"},{"start":14075.623,"end":14092.375,"text":"哎呀"},{"start":14100.401,"end":14112.586,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":14136.376,"end":14144.378,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14171.233,"end":14187.669,"text":"來 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生之說明跟詢問我們現在中選會委員被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生說明"},{"start":14196.281,"end":14208.906,"text":"主席 秘書長 麥委員 還有全體的女士們 先生們我是福音科技大學蘇嘉鴻蘇老師"},{"start":14210.917,"end":14237.499,"text":"我在這個學校任教已經有32年的歷史在去年因為種種的機緣巧合被推薦被提名所以有這個機會來這邊接受大家的提問我在這裡想要講兩件事情第一件事情"},{"start":14239.857,"end":14263.016,"text":"從早上到現在所有的委員們對被提名人的提問大概聚焦在幾件事情上面大概不外就是公投綁大選以及不在籍投票另外還有其他的問題不管怎麼樣這都是一個值得追求的"},{"start":14265.632,"end":14269.512,"text":"未來方向 它是一個值得追求的未來方向"},{"start":14270.58,"end":14296.194,"text":"但是我們必須要很誠實的去面對中選會現在當前的行政量能未來的考驗其實都在於未來的中選會能不能在自己的行政量能上面有所擴張 有所深化來因應這些挑戰"},{"start":14298.404,"end":14315.497,"text":"所以在一個值得追求的方向它代表了一種進步的價值但與此同時我們對於中選會的目前的行政量能卻沒有與時俱增的一種調整這完全是不現實的"},{"start":14317.079,"end":14342.805,"text":"那中選會的組織編制據說是57個然後預算編制是55個總之他不會超過60個人那地方選委會是負責選務工作所以不管是境外的或者是這個省委的啦等等的這些各式各樣的挑戰"},{"start":14344.113,"end":14364.228,"text":"那麼中選會其實是沒有辦法回應這個現代的時代需求跟社會的這樣的殷切的期待所以在這種情況之下我認為就是我要講的第二點中選會的委員們應該是要專任的目前是無幾職"},{"start":14368.666,"end":14376.903,"text":"那NCC跟這個公平會呢都是專任的那這個以兼任的"},{"start":14377.697,"end":14401.874,"text":"兼職的 無幾職的委員要來因應這些剛剛講過的重重的挑戰實在是分身乏術了 實在是分身乏術幸好此時此刻的審查會是在這個禮拜如果是在上週上上週的話是學期最後一週要辦這個"},{"start":14404.127,"end":14430.513,"text":"期末考 要簽考 要印考卷什麼的怎麼可能來呢要把本職工作薪水顧好所以這麼工作 這個工作這麼兼具對委員來講 確實無幾值的兼職這是一個很奇特的現象所以我們必須要讓獨立機關的獨立性因為委員的踴躍性獲得保障"},{"start":14431.383,"end":14459.479,"text":"那這個機關才能夠因應未來的這麼一些更多的一個挑戰那麼第二件事情就是說那麼有關於這個選舉罷免的訴訟選罷法的這個訴訟目前都還是在民事法院裡面它明明是公法訴訟那這個部分我們可能在未來也可以再重新做個調整跟思考以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":14462.782,"end":14467.985,"text":"謝謝感謝首名我們這裡定期麥一貞委員質詢謝謝主席 有請蘇老師蘇老師謝謝老師好 真的辛苦了"},{"start":14491.857,"end":14520.191,"text":"所以我們說想要請問一下因為現在的選舉制度你有說了就是憲政由內政部主管選務由中選會負責的分立設計原意在於落實責任政治就是維護選舉的中立但你也指出實務上因為全職的交"},{"start":14521.171,"end":14538.448,"text":"交換 所以呢 往往就是導致改革就是遲締甚至使中選會受制於行政關係難以回應高度流動社會於新型的風險所以呢 我想要請教兩點第一 在維持分立的架構下 你認為"},{"start":14545.695,"end":14569.137,"text":"中選會應清楚定位以依法執行選務的獨立機關而非非推上政治的正義第一線第二若短期仍維持分立體制是否通過交錯的任期專任化外部專家參與度透明等的"},{"start":14569.797,"end":14581.743,"text":"制度設計就是逐步強化中選會獨立性與公信力我們要的就是可以獨立作業嗎 這樣子的一個目標"},{"start":14583.439,"end":14599.071,"text":"是的 我原您的提問通通都是我的答案我就是肯定的很好 所以在我們的問卷裡面也有回覆指出說選舉權不是刑"},{"start":14602.413,"end":14627.282,"text":"形式的權利 而是國家必要積極保障的基本權 當人民因為求學啊就業啊 或者服役或職群無法返回戶籍投票的時候 我國家就是要提供替代制度 實質上就是就限制其他投票並"},{"start":14629.623,"end":14651.214,"text":"對年輕人還有流動人口造成不平等所以我們你認為在就是本人到場還有身份查驗也秘密投票的前提下國內移轉投票在實質上不是便利措施是"},{"start":14652.652,"end":14679.282,"text":"國家例行憲法保障參政的必要制度你也強調說國內轉移投票不同於資訊或者電子投票風險可控不宜被過度上網為國安問題那麼有立法完成不在籍投票的法治化的那個就是投票的法治化"},{"start":14680.12,"end":14692.096,"text":"你是否認為中選會在制度設計就是執行上應如何就是權力就是最大為原則從如何讓更合格"},{"start":14694.1,"end":14719.586,"text":"選民安全投票出發因為現在很多地方就是各國等於是說印尼 菲律賓他們都是可以就是在台灣在投票但是我在這邊強調的是說我們的民眾黨說的就是在台灣 在台灣 在台灣是移轉投票而已所以你覺得是說這樣子我們能做得到嗎"},{"start":14722.008,"end":14742.545,"text":"以目前国内的移转投票我认为中选会可能步步为赢也是步步为赢赢得胜利的赢这件事情我觉得中选会可能还可以勉强的"},{"start":14745.747,"end":14770.143,"text":"跟上社會的需求但是如果我們繼續做民主深化的話我們還要再做其他更大的發展的話以目前我再強調一次我所了解到的中選會的行政量能是做不到的所以必須要有所調整才能夠因應時代的變遷回應社會的需求 以上"},{"start":14771.363,"end":14797.666,"text":"中選會應該做得到現在我們是台灣是科技國家所以這個是說應該要做得到不是說還在不一定做得到我覺得這個是已經我們台灣已經應該要做得到的所以接下來我想要請教一下因為現在就是兩岸人民的關係明定大陸地區人民在"},{"start":14798.867,"end":14822.203,"text":"涉及滿十年還有我是外配也是滿十年就是依法登記為公職候選人但是立法則憲法徵定條文裡面第十一條所做出了特別規範但近期引發就是行政機關用國籍法張大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14828.787,"end":14854.174,"text":"人民比例外國人額外要求放棄所謂的外國國籍形同就是以行政解釋架空的特別法所以你在這邊也是就是你說理解所以你也是說依法依法就是涉及滿十年原則是大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14854.514,"end":14857.955,"text":"參政權是否以憲法保障的基本權應用優先因為在我們的兩岸條款這邊就是說優先應用所以排除國籍法的類型就是來去適用所以在目前我們的部會"},{"start":14875.522,"end":14892.814,"text":"法律見解出現就十分之甚至有行政官員公開宣稱說陸配參政權已死的情況下你是否認為說中選會應依特別法明文辦理選務而非"},{"start":14895.456,"end":14897.719,"text":"而非就是被動承受這樣子可能違憲的行政解釋以免就是實質剝奪人民的參政權報告委員"},{"start":14909.515,"end":14936.473,"text":"台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例相對於國籍法民法諸多的相關涉及的法律目前就是一種特別法優先適用於普通法的這樣的一種法律適用關係這是沒有疑問的如果啦在這個特別法的跟普通法的這種優先適用關係不成立的話"},{"start":14937.577,"end":14960.613,"text":"那大陸地區人民來談 繼承這個遺產的上限兩百兩百萬可能就會怎麼樣呢那就不用遵守了 回到民法它的印記份或者是什麼樣的那都很可能超過兩百萬所以這個特別法的問題 這是第一個第二個 這個叫做期待可能性"},{"start":14961.734,"end":14988.463,"text":"如果中國大陸是沒有放棄國籍的這樣的一種法治的話強要我們的大陸配偶回去大陸去放棄國籍在客觀上沒有其他可能性強人民之所難以此來剝奪人民的參政權這個我不能認同 以上報告"},{"start":14989.042,"end":15012.56,"text":"好 謝謝 再給我一分鐘謝謝主席 謝謝我們的老師給我們的說明所以我常講的就是說我們不要因出勝地來去決定我們在台灣的我們拿身份證是跟我們國民一模模一樣樣參選也是一模模一樣樣的當選也是一模模一樣樣不要再拿出勝地來去"},{"start":15013.741,"end":15020.589,"text":"就是在台灣努力的人所以在最後就是請教我們的教授你在問卷中也多次強調選舉制度的核心不在政治操作的便利而在"},{"start":15029.36,"end":15032.201,"text":"憲法持續的穩定以及人民參政權是否能對實質保障在這樣子的一個關鍵問題你是否未來擔任中選會的委員在面對高度的政治爭議或跨部會法律的見解的分支時"},{"start":15050.348,"end":15068.241,"text":"你將如何具體拿捏中選會作為獨立機關的分機確保制度解釋回到法律明定性以憲政的原則真正守住民主制度與人民參政權的長期保障是 報告委員那個超越黨派依法行政公正公開 以上報告"},{"start":15078.763,"end":15092.09,"text":"好 太好了 謝謝希望未來就是要看你要讓我們的國家正常運轉讓保障我們的人民 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 感謝麥真委員質詢南北提名人蘇嘉鳳先生的說明跟質詢都已經結束"},{"start":15105.802,"end":15114.647,"text":"被提名人舒嘉宏先生可以先行離席休息兩分鐘 謝謝大家"},{"start":15143.251,"end":15145.052,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":15153.558,"end":15173.178,"text":"因為是很方便,現在我們是在滿國之大地,很方便,因為如果東南歐,那是一個很舒服的地方,很舒服的地方"},{"start":15173.899,"end":15198.916,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":15204.111,"end":15209.814,"text":"慢慢來"},{"start":15241.724,"end":15255.032,"text":"謝謝 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人舒芝喬先生之說明和詢問請中選會的委員被提名人舒芝喬先生說明主席 黃委員各位委員"},{"start":15268.98,"end":15279.649,"text":"張秘書長還有在座各位先進 大家好非常榮幸能夠在這邊接受立法院的審查"},{"start":15283.568,"end":15299.828,"text":"很榮幸被台灣民眾黨推薦然後受行政院提名為中選會的被提名人我目前在東吳大學任教目前是東吳大學政治系的教授我自己的研究專長研究領域是"},{"start":15301.67,"end":15312.881,"text":"憲政體制還有選語制度那對於選語制度事實上有蠻多的這個世界各國選語制度有蠻多的一些觀察跟研究所以我自己個人認為就是說有這個機會有這個榮幸"},{"start":15317.626,"end":15334.906,"text":"如果能夠到中選會來服務的話其實是貢獻我自己的所長所以作為一個學者能夠進行公共服務有這樣的機會其實我是非常覺得是樂觀其成的而且也是覺得很榮幸能夠有機會擔任這樣的工作的"},{"start":15338.98,"end":15356.6,"text":"我對於自己的這個中選會的一個如果說將來能夠有機會能夠擔任中選委員的話我想我對自己的一個自我的定位是超越黨派然後依法行政然後公平公正的性質權雖然我是受台灣民眾黨所推薦但我不是台灣民眾黨的"},{"start":15358.121,"end":15380.522,"text":"政黨的代言人因為做一個中選會這樣的獨立機關我做一個研究憲政憲法的學者其實我對獨立機關本身的一個期許是相當的深厚的所以如果說我真的有機會有榮幸擔任中選會委員的話我想這是我一個對自己的一個非常深切的自我的期待自我期許"},{"start":15381.701,"end":15396.941,"text":"那就是我覺得中選會在過去這幾年來在政治的紛擾當中事實上確實它的公信力跟它的一些它的獨立性似乎受到社會各界的某一些質疑不過其實我還是相當"},{"start":15397.982,"end":15417.982,"text":"程度肯定這個中選會的同仁的在選務工作上的很多的努力那只是說在台灣目前這個朝野的這樣的一個對立情況之下不免會有一些對中選會這個獨立機關的這樣的一個一個政治上的一些批判那我認為就是說強化中選會的"},{"start":15420.203,"end":15442.335,"text":"公信力 獨立性是這個未來中選會要進一步去努力的一個方向那我也希望就是說我未來如果有幸作為一個中選會的委員在這個合一制的運作之下能夠貢獻自己所長然後這個對於這個台灣的民主深化民主鞏固以及這個民主的韌性盡一分心力我想我就簡短報告到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":15445.214,"end":15468.939,"text":"謝謝 感謝說明我們今天定期張祺凱委員質詢家屬教授 主席你先"},{"start":15471.638,"end":15498.671,"text":"所以說今天從游營榮游主委到副主委到目前最熱門的被問到的就是不在即投票了不在即投票游營榮游主委提到的是他贊成可是他要求從公投開始做事實上最近這幾天有看到民進黨立院黨團向前跨了一步立院黨團的幹事長鍾嘉斌講說必要的時候從總統大選都可以開始做"},{"start":15500.814,"end":15516.386,"text":"那我看你回答我們這個問卷你是贊成不再急投票的特別是台灣民眾黨現在提出來版本國內移轉投票有沒有可能 有沒有可能如果你獲得提名完之後我剛剛講的是三個階段"},{"start":15517.492,"end":15534.959,"text":"游英龍公投到了民進黨黨團連總統大選都可以了有沒有可能進來之後如果成功被提名通過這個中選會的這個提名之後進來之後有沒有可能在今年的年底縣市長的投票有可能可以做不在籍投票嗎"},{"start":15536.167,"end":15564.966,"text":"我想謝謝委員那個詢問就是不在於投票現在當然要等那個法律通過嘛所以中選會作為獨立機關最重要值得是依法行政啦所以我是很樂見就是說寫期待就是說這個不在於投票法能夠通過那事實上我覺得目前對於不在於投票的一些疑慮我想確實是存是我想可以肯定的事實上你剛提了一個非常重要依法行政是就是民眾黨這個版本已經提出來了"},{"start":15565.706,"end":15579.747,"text":"如果立法院三讀通過的民眾黨這個版本那就是中選會就在依法 依法憲政嘛 對不對那如果來得及的話就是今年年底的縣市長選舉可能就可以開始做這個台灣民眾黨這個版本而且這個版本"},{"start":15581.65,"end":15607.019,"text":"不是什麼有什麼國安餘力什麼境外勢力介入的他沒有國外也沒有兩岸我們這個界定的就是國內的移轉投票就是你還是要親自要去投跟你有提到說這跟通信投票又不一樣對不對所以執行上應該是沒有問題的那我問你一下因為剛剛有這個委員就回答說中選會的行政量能做不到你覺得做不做得到"},{"start":15608.209,"end":15632.064,"text":"我覺得中選會當然就是他會一個比較謹慎的態度在面對這個事情啦可是我自己會認為就是說如果真的法律已經通過了那中選會當然就是要盡力去配合辦理那我也認為中選會在一定的時間準備之下是應該有一定的準備的量能去推動這件事情的依法行政然後盡快推動是可以"},{"start":15632.484,"end":15661.614,"text":"有機會在年底依法來行政來做的對不對其實是有可能的事實上你是專門研究選舉的日本都已經實施不再舉投票大概二十幾年了二十幾年了我看那個報導上面寫他說日本連在攔戟日本人去攔戟都可以投票他們甚至可以提前投票跟美國都是一樣的南韓也有嘛他們號稱科技大國怎麼我們的技術是有問題的連我們的移工"},{"start":15663.364,"end":15690.604,"text":"在台灣的印尼的移工 菲律賓的移工他們都有投票啊所以老實講我們要趕快去推動要不然真的會被世界上笑啦好 OK這個題希望你以後可以盡力去推動那當然就是可能有些人可能意見會不一樣可是最重要最重要的就是這個法有沒有在最近完成三讀另外我看你的回答裡面有一個非常重要的這個上次總統大選的時候啊有一個非常有名的這個網紅"},{"start":15693.528,"end":15710.901,"text":"愛麗莎莎 她因為轉發了有些民眾有在質疑說是不是有作票結果後來你們中選會就告了她了後來沒有起訴 黃國昌就在問她說中選會到後來一句抱歉都沒說 你怎麼看這樣一個事情"},{"start":15713.269,"end":15734.61,"text":"我想中選會作為一個獨立機關它的基本的做法應該以公開呈現為主要優先的一個選項我想提起訴訟這個是一個比較相對來講我覺得個人來講是一個比較激烈手段呈現把事實呈現不是急於去輕鬆你的態度是這樣所以以後希望中選會不要急著去輕鬆最後問一個問題最要緊的問題"},{"start":15737.886,"end":15753.351,"text":"這個去年引起最大爭議的就是國民黨提了實質廢死的這個公投在中選會被廢掉了你怎麼看這樣一個事情如果你當選了中選會的這個委員之後如果再來提一次這個實質廢死這個案子你會怎麼樣來處理這個案子"},{"start":15757.492,"end":15782.386,"text":"這個問題確實是比較在憲政協議上我覺得是比較有真理的不過我簡單回答就是立法院所提的公投案依照目前這個公投法的規定其實中選會是沒有審查權的所以當立法院真的提了這樣公投案我想中選會我如果說這個案子重新這個同樣發生的話中選會必須依法辦理那只是說確實這個用憲法"},{"start":15783.286,"end":15807.609,"text":"就是公投去推翻憲法判決本身這個事情的這個議題我覺得我作為一個學者我是有一點疑慮的不過作為一個中選會這個獨立機關的角色我認為就是依法行政我想這是最優先的考量中選會去沒收立法院的這個提案那不就變成是太上立法院了對不對 而且你講到一個重點你今天質詢 我覺得你答詢得非常好你都是依法行政在做事情所以如果這個案子如果"},{"start":15808.67,"end":15815.296,"text":"最近又被提出來 請依法行政來做事情不要急於去沒收 好不好好 好 非常謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 我們感謝張之凱委員質詢"},{"start":15828.578,"end":15850.395,"text":"我們繼續經營被提名人蘇志喬先生說明跟詢問都已經結束了在這裡被提名人蘇志喬先生可以先行離席我們休息兩分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":15858.928,"end":15867.874,"text":"一幕,一幕啦,我們要五分啊,改兩分啊,開始啦,前輩,前輩,馬上好,欸,兩分鐘啊,DJ,啊,這樣喔,這個,這個,這個,這個主持人,"},{"start":15891.894,"end":15900.716,"text":"今天等於說對我們來講就是七場啦所以一定要切啦對,對我們來講就是七場"},{"start":15912.664,"end":15925.411,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":15938.533,"end":15939.394,"text":"30秒30秒他有那個壓縮那個時間"},{"start":15967.372,"end":15979.099,"text":"我們繼續進行被提名人陳忠義先生說明及詢問這中選會委員被提名人陳忠義先生說明"},{"start":15990.647,"end":16006.678,"text":"主席 張紅蘿委員 吳啟明委員 在座各位官員我是這次中選委員被提名人陳忠義很榮幸也很高興能夠來立法院來答詢 接受審查"},{"start":16008.834,"end":16031.53,"text":"我想今天坐下來 我是當然 人家說好酒定慢醉不是淡於中宿 那我想今天聽了吳思瑤的選舉創意美學我們很有啟發 也聽到張宏祿委員對選辦法第98條之一虛為欠席戶籍 意圖使人當選五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":16032.23,"end":16044.938,"text":"所以我們都聽到很多委員的寶貴意見我們都會吸收來加以運用那我有能性的通過的話我一定會秉持公正公平獨立專業依法來執行職務謝謝各位 謝謝 以上謝謝 感謝蕭明我們前期的委員長黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在"},{"start":16064.195,"end":16077.851,"text":"比提名人陳忠義先生說明及諮詢已經結束了比提名人陳忠義先生可以先行離席"},{"start":16081.653,"end":16106.042,"text":"本次會議定期的這項跟問出委比提名人的本院委員除了不在場議員全都已經發言完畢 審討結束委員有蘇巧慧 莊瑞雄 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他們號稱科技大國怎麼我們的技術是有問題的連我們的移工"},{"start":213.381,"end":240.641,"text":"在台灣的印尼的移工 非印尼的移工他們都有投票啊所以老實講我們要趕快去推動要不然真的會被世界上笑啦好 OK這個題希望你以後可以盡力去推動當然就是可能有些人可能意見會不一樣可是最重要最重要的就是這個法有沒有在最近完成三度另外來我看你的回答裡面有一個非常重要的這個上次總統大選的時候啊有一個非常有名的這個網紅"},{"start":243.545,"end":260.912,"text":"愛麗莎莎 她因為轉發了有些民眾有在質疑說是不是有作票結果後來你們中選會去告了她後來沒有起訴 黃國昌就在問她說中選會到後來一句抱歉都沒說 你怎麼看這樣一個事情"},{"start":263.166,"end":284.643,"text":"我想中選會作為一個獨立機關它的基本的做法應該以公開呈現為主要優先的一個選項我想提起訴訟這個是一個比較相對來講我覺得個人來講是一個比較激烈的手段澄清把事實呈現不是急於去輕鬆 你的態度是這樣所以以後希望中選會不要急著去輕鬆所以我問一個問題 最後一個問題"},{"start":287.903,"end":303.373,"text":"這個去年啊引起最大爭議的就是國民黨提了實質廢死的這個公投在中選會被廢掉了你怎麼看這樣一個事情如果你當選了中選會的這個委員之後如果再來提一次這個實質廢死這個案子你會怎麼樣來處理這個案子"},{"start":307.509,"end":323.479,"text":"這個問題確實是比較在憲政學理上我覺得是比較有真理的不過我簡單回答就是立法院所提的公投案依照目前公投法的規定其實中選會是沒有審查權的所以當立法院真的提了這樣公投案我想中選會"},{"start":324.54,"end":347.624,"text":"我如果說這個案子重新 同樣發生的話中選會必須依法辦理那只是說確實這個用憲法就是公投去推翻憲法判決本身這個事情的這個議題我覺得我作為一個學者我是有一點疑慮的不過作為一個中選會這個獨立機關的角色我認為就是依法行政我想這是最優先的考量中選會去沒收立法院的這個提案"},{"start":348.144,"end":364.766,"text":"那不就變成是太上立法院了 對不對而且你講那個重點 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麥玉珍 丁學忠委員三人列席官員 大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑暨相關人員內政部常務次長吳唐安暨相關人員中央全局委員會法務部外交部國家安全局國家通訊傳播委員會數位發展部交通部司法院監察院財團法人海峽交流基金會等機關代表暨相關人員主席王昭吉委員美會討論事項審查反滲透法修正草案暨時案討論事項合併詢答委員"},{"start":1675.712,"end":1701.867,"text":"沈博洋 王定宇 黃捷說明提案要旨大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑內政部常務次長吳唐安報告委員蘇巧慧等17人質詢分別由大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑及相關人員國家安全局第三處陳副處長法務部參事謝志明司法院刑事廳法官吳元耀內政部常務次長吳唐安中央選舉委員會法政處處長蔡京高數位發展部法制處副處長吳怡倫答覆說明"},{"start":1702.327,"end":1726.361,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員莊銳雄 林怡瑾 丁學忠 徐欣盈 沈發慧等五人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及位及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢請問各位委員 今天會議記錄有什麼錯誤與疑慮嗎沒有"},{"start":1732.871,"end":1748.001,"text":"議事錄確定我們繼續進行討論署行簽讀審查行政院涵送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單游盈隆為委員並為主任委員胡柏彥為委員並為副主任委員"},{"start":1748.901,"end":1767.209,"text":"黃文玲 李李仲 蘇嘉鴻 蘇紫橋及陳忠義 軍委委員請同意案依序分別審查由被提名人 迎龍胡被提名人 博焱黃被提名人 文玲李被提名人 李仲蘇被提名人 嘉鴻蘇被提名人 紫橋陳被提名人 忠義 宣讀完畢我們來介紹主席的委員跟行政機關列席的委員跟被提名人"},{"start":1786.826,"end":1807.007,"text":"我們先來第一位張志倫委員第二位劉錫廷委員現在進來我們的王鴻薇委員我們現在向正義秘書長張敦漢秘書長"},{"start":1811.314,"end":1816.475,"text":"中央選舉委員會主任委員被提名人游一龍副主任委員被提名人吳柏彥委員提名人比提名人黃文玲"},{"start":1834.541,"end":1842.286,"text":"委員比提名人李立忠委員比提名人蘇嘉鴻委員比提名人蘇志橋委員比提名人陳忠義主任必須謝美玲"},{"start":1863.717,"end":1874.106,"text":"我們行政院林署行政總署培訓考用處處長李花蘇你歡迎"},{"start":1888.137,"end":1895.403,"text":"立法院院會第11屆第4期第16次會議報告交付內政司法及法治兩個委員會審查中央委員會所提出的命令"},{"start":1910.723,"end":1914.604,"text":"兩委員會一位26級辦公廳會以前也已經完成本院各黨團隊被提名人的資格"},{"start":1925.309,"end":1952.296,"text":"事任性所提出的書面問題函請行政院轉致各備提名人經行政院函附各備提名人提出與相關的資料並以檢証於各黨團在案本案審查程序安排在28日、29日兩天一天"},{"start":1954.684,"end":1955.045,"text":"會議分配審查"},{"start":1961.484,"end":1986.661,"text":"本這個會議開始進行前行宣告以下事項先進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明及答詢依程序由行政院張秘書長及游盈隆先生分配說明後進行詢答"},{"start":1988.383,"end":2003.879,"text":"由榮榮先生撥分全部達成結束後 休訓10分鐘再進行提名人胡柏彥先生的署名與答詢程序與定管一樣 並釋放會議"},{"start":2010.325,"end":2033.473,"text":"會議進行的總統職項與程序分別進行比提名人黃文玲、李立中、蘇家鴻、蘇芝喬、陳宗義說明與答詢答詢的時間出席出席委員會六分鐘內席委員會四分鐘"},{"start":2038.835,"end":2044.402,"text":"本院的委員會議定期時間10點半一至本次會議沒有要處理臨時提案現在我們請行政委張秘書長進行說明"},{"start":2065.396,"end":2092.17,"text":"主席在場的各位委員各位先生女士媒體朋友大家早安今天立法院內政跟司法法制委員會聯席審查行政院所提名的七位中選會委員被提名人本人應邀這個列席報告宣感榮幸選舉罷免跟公民投票都是我國國民重要的參政權"},{"start":2093.479,"end":2118.513,"text":"也是憲法保障人民參與公共事務的基本權利台灣透過了一次次選舉罷免或者是公民投票逐步的深化我國的民主憲政為了貫徹憲法保障民主法治及人民參政的主旨總選會秉持超然中立 恪守中立的精神統籌辦理"},{"start":2120.814,"end":2144.737,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免及公民投票的事務持續鞏固公平公正公開的公共事務環境以確保國民意志的展現因此中選會運作是中華民國實現民主核心的機制以下僅就本次的提名作業做簡要的報告跟說明依照中選會組織法"},{"start":2146.496,"end":2174.398,"text":"第三條第一項規定中選會設置9到11個人其中一人為主任委員一人為副主任委員其他的委員7到9位那這次的提名也是依照中選會組織法來進行提名領選具有法證相關的專業經驗的公證人士來擔任委員中有同一個黨籍的不得超過委員總數的三分之一"},{"start":2176.906,"end":2202.011,"text":"那也跟大家報告跟說明依照中選會組織法的規定中選會除了主任委員跟副主任委員之外其餘經為兼職無給職那這次的提名也依照這樣的規定來進行跟辦理那麼第二個說明是中選會前主任委員李靖勇副主任委員陳昭健委員許惠峰 陳恩明 王韻如"},{"start":2203.277,"end":2218.411,"text":"徐亞芬等六人的任期已經在去年的11月3日屆滿另外委員蒙志成也因為個人的因素而提早請辭所以這一次行政院提名游英龍為委員並為主任委員"},{"start":2220.509,"end":2247.442,"text":"胡柏諺為副主任委員並為委員委員包括了黃文玲女士李李仲先生 蘇嘉鴻先生 蘇紫橋先生等六人那以上這六人的任期會依照相關的法令規定任期會到2029年的11月3日而且委員蒙志成的遺缺將由陳忠義接任任期會到明年的11月為止"},{"start":2249.471,"end":2272.93,"text":"那這次中選會的新任委員提名是依照中選會組織法第三條規定辦理滿足了三個法定的條件第一個滿足了中選會組法第三條第四項的規定提名了具有豐富專業學識或實務經驗的公正人士來進行第二個同一個黨籍的委員也不會超過三分之一在這次被提名人當中"},{"start":2274.324,"end":2302.163,"text":"僅有胡柏諺有時代力量的黨籍蘇嘉鴻教授有中國國民黨的黨籍那陳忠義前立委則是有民主進步黨的黨籍其他的四個人目前僅為無黨籍如果蒙大院通過所有的人事同意權後那麼加上目前現有的四位委員委員的有黨籍的同一黨籍的人數的比例不會超過法定的三分之一"},{"start":2303.339,"end":2324.114,"text":"那第三個經過這次提名作業的竊竭拒絕所有的七位被提名人均無中國戶籍也無外國戶籍或永久居留權也符合了相關的國籍的規範那以下也就這次七位被提名人的學經歷背景做簡單扼要的報告"},{"start":2326.991,"end":2355.059,"text":"那第一位是主任委員 並為委員游盈榮教授那大家對他很熟悉他是台灣民意基金會的董事長過去長期在學術界在東吳大學任教非常多年那在中央的行政經驗他不但擔任過過去行政研考會的副主任委員陸委會的特任副主任委員海基會的副董事長兼秘書長"},{"start":2356.874,"end":2382.131,"text":"也擔任過中選會的委員在政治學比較政治民意與投票行為政黨選舉等領域專業駐有專精那第二位是胡柏彥委員並為副主任委員胡柏彥教授現在是東吳大學法律系的教授專長是憲法行政法過去他也在不同的大學任教"},{"start":2383.598,"end":2410.681,"text":"也曾經擔任過許多中央部會的書院審議會或者是法規委員會的委員那他也曾經擔任過中選會書院委員會的委員對於中選會的業務也是非常的實務上也是非常的了解那第三位被提名人也是過去的資深的立委黃文林律師那黃文林律師的專長是法律及內政"},{"start":2412.284,"end":2437.106,"text":"曾經擔任過第八屆的立委也曾經擔任過多個仲裁協會的仲裁人在程序、主持、爭議處理方面有相當豐富的實務經驗第四位是李李仲教授李李仲教授是由中國國民黨所推薦的被提名人李教授現在是中華科技大學的專任教授"},{"start":2438.174,"end":2458.163,"text":"也是副校長專長是商業跟金融監理的法規公平法跟智慧財產權等多元的領域那他過去也曾經擔任過第七屆公平教育委員會的委員長期投入法學的研究兼具公共治理選務跟獨立機關的實務經驗"},{"start":2461.53,"end":2484.826,"text":"那第五位蘇嘉鴻教授也是中國國民黨所推薦的優秀的人選那蘇嘉鴻教授目前是福音科技大學的專任教授過去在中央他也曾經擔任過海委會國家海洋研究院海洋政策及文化研究中心的主任等職務現在也擔任許多地方政府"},{"start":2487.796,"end":2511.955,"text":"醫療爭議調解委員會跟醫事審議委員會的委員從中央到地方從理論到實務也具有豐富的經驗第六位是舒子喬教授那舒子喬教授是台灣民眾黨所推薦的被提名人那舒子喬教授是現任東吳大學政治系的教授專長是憲政體制選舉制度以及比較政治"},{"start":2514.367,"end":2542.916,"text":"長期研究我國的憲政制度跟選舉制度並著作等身有相當豐富的期刊跟論文那第七位被提名人是陳忠義前立委他目前是桃園市選委會的委員專長是法律曾經擔任升格之前的桃園縣的桃園市長也是立法院第五屆的立法委員資深立委"},{"start":2544.181,"end":2571.059,"text":"在地方不只有行政的經驗也擔任過長期的縣議員的職務具有豐富的中央跟地方的實務經驗相信也能夠為中選會無論是中央或者是地方的選舉事務能夠投注非常多的專業的貢獻那這次中選會的提名作業也感謝國民黨以及民眾黨"},{"start":2574.884,"end":2593.445,"text":"舉薦優秀的人才經過行政院審酌的考量秉持著韓納各黨推薦橫跨朝野背景兼具理論實務以及中央地方經驗這四個原則我們就相關的領域領選了七位"},{"start":2594.741,"end":2615.012,"text":"被提名人加上現有的四位中選會委員也都是學長巨優相信能夠為中選會籌辦選務注入專業全面的規劃跟運作思維持續深化中華民國台灣的民主法治體現主權在民希望"},{"start":2616.38,"end":2645.249,"text":"貴院所有的委員能夠理性審議予以支持 以上報告請各位委員先進指教 謝謝謝謝 感謝張秘書長的說明現在我們開始來進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明和答詢請被提名人游盈隆先生說明"},{"start":2659.629,"end":2684.209,"text":"王主席各位委員行政院張秘書長各位女士各位先生大家早安大家好我今天非常榮幸能夠以中選會主委被提名人的身份來國會的殿堂來接受各位的"},{"start":2686.331,"end":2715.252,"text":"提問不過一開始我沒有預期到說我還要做報告要做說明不過我簡單的講11月底我接受行政院的提名我是抱持著一個如臨深淵如履薄冰的心情接下這樣的一個提名我知道"},{"start":2717.011,"end":2743.566,"text":"中選會主委的工作是非常的艱鉅的中選會的工作不是常人所能夠理解但是中選會的工作關係到台灣民主的成敗所以承擔這樣的一個角色那是無比的沉重也無比的榮幸"},{"start":2747.267,"end":2751.749,"text":"我是懷抱理想跟使命感而來我希望為台灣民主做出貢獻在目前國內政局緊張政黨高度競爭的環境裡面中選會要如何"},{"start":2776.061,"end":2801.632,"text":"做到讓各黨都能滿意讓所有的候選人能滿意讓選民能夠滿意是一個非常艱鉅的挑戰但我相信如果我獲得大院的同意支持未來我一定會"},{"start":2804.282,"end":2831.329,"text":"堅持絕對的超然中立客觀公正並且專業的精神和能力全力以赴希望中選會一個健全的中選會能夠在大院的支持之下早日的出現在國人眼前讓我們"},{"start":2833.166,"end":2854.518,"text":"我們2026的大選能夠順利成功讓我們2028的大選能夠順利成功中選會是這樣的一個角色我在這裡非常誠摯的也謙卑的要向我們的國會報告並且也請求讓中選會"},{"start":2864.349,"end":2891.091,"text":"人事案早日通過 讓中選會早日上路為大家做事 謝謝大家謝謝 我們現在請登記第一位 牛西庭委員質詢謝謝主席 請備題名人游教授請游教授"},{"start":2899.758,"end":2917.487,"text":"好早安林委員早這個您大部分我們認識游教授都是在新聞媒體上因為這個台灣民意基金會的這個民意調查也算是赫赫有名長時間的滾動提供了政治圈非常多攻打手邊的一個素材那大家在"},{"start":2918.726,"end":2945.287,"text":"這個看到游盈隆教授被列為中選會主委的提名人的時候大家當然是有一些意外也有很多問題想要請教那麼今天很高興有這樣一個機緣可以跟教授來做一下面對面的討論我問的第一個問題就是你應該如何確保啊這個如果有幸成為中選會主委啊因為你平常也評論非常多的一個政治的事務也做民意調查在基金會裡面有職務你怎麼樣確保這之間的分際可以非常的清楚你打算做哪一些的決定"},{"start":2948.396,"end":2973.935,"text":"謝謝牛委員我已經有了相當的覺悟擔任中選會主委也有一定程度的犧牲是要付出的我可能失去了自由我的意思是說失去評論台灣公開評論台灣政治的自由作為一個政治學者"},{"start":2975.23,"end":3004.095,"text":"我作為一個關心台灣的知識分子那樣的一個犧牲是重大的但是為了更高的目的為了更重大的目標我覺得我必須做這樣的歌聲一語雄長不能得見好 所以意思就是說不會再發表相關的評論民意調查等等也會離開基金會的職務是這樣的意思嗎如果大院能夠"},{"start":3005.266,"end":3026.884,"text":"通過中選會主委的人事同意權任命我將辭去台灣民意教育基金會的董事長也辭去董事我採取比法律更嚴格的標準做自我的要求非常好 謝謝"},{"start":3028.294,"end":3056.467,"text":"那麼我們再針對幾個常常我們在中選會這個平台做討論的題目跟教授做一下意見的交換這個目前立法院有很多的委員提案修正公職人員選罷法或者是不在籍投票的各種相關的一個草案那也有這個這個大家的版本不一樣但大部分的版本基本上都是限於所謂的境內移轉投票有關不在籍投票的部分換言之就是透過登記的部分我不見得要舟車勞頓的返鄉"},{"start":3057.967,"end":3086.897,"text":"我可以在就近的投票所去投別的選舉這是在自己戶籍所在地的這樣子的一個投票那我想請問一下被提名人立法院如果修正相關的法令新增了不在籍投票相關的制度限於國內移轉投票請問您會不會忠實的執行立法院通過的法律當然如果立法院通過了不在籍投票中選會只有依法行政全力以赴好 謝謝"},{"start":3088.103,"end":3114.416,"text":"那您覺得在您如果你有機會領導中選會啦您可能需要多少時間來做好境內移轉投票制度的相關準備工作我不知道這項立法到時候在立法院會如何通過整個制度的內容到底是怎麼樣我不清楚但是我也要就最近我從我們中選會"},{"start":3117.639,"end":3139.077,"text":"同仁那里所得到的许多的资讯我深深的感觉不在即投票是世界的潮流也是台湾许多人直觉上对的一个努力方向但是"},{"start":3140.732,"end":3170.098,"text":"當我們在講世界各國很多都採取了這個不在籍投票的時候台灣沒有感覺到自己落後了自己很慚愧我覺得那種心情是可以理解的我肯定那是一個進步的思維可是我們也不能夠脫離現實如果回到我們自己的國家的選舉制度"},{"start":3172.025,"end":3185.677,"text":"我們深入去看很快就會發現不在籍投票牽涉的是非常複雜的選舉的工程尤其是九合一尤其是在九合一地方選舉裡面"},{"start":3199.188,"end":3220.356,"text":"實施不在籍投票就現階段來講肯定是一個災難中選會已經提出來如果在九合一地方選舉辦不在籍投票將會造成將近九千種不同的選票在極端的狀況下所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":3224.028,"end":3245.234,"text":"很重要的一點我們喜歡看天邊的彩霞但不要踩壞了眼前的一大這個玫瑰讓我們的這個傲視世界的台灣選舉然後蒙城教授這個那到底是要執行還是不執行花多少時間準備"},{"start":3246.351,"end":3262.104,"text":"所以我剛剛講原則上我剛剛已經講但是願意執行但需要很多時間準備實際上要通過什麼樣的制度內容目前您知道嗎還是您可以現在告訴我我可以做回應當然這個有很多不同的版本"},{"start":3262.684,"end":3284.121,"text":"這個如果你有幸擔任中學會主委相信還有很多討論的機會但因為時間有限我們還有問最後幾個問題因為我們的執政黨曾經表示如果施行不在籍投票會導致選民投票的信任消失會有作票的風險也曾經說會有讓中國大陸借選更加容易即便我們剛剛講的現在的不在籍投票的版本是國內的移轉投票"},{"start":3285.041,"end":3308.983,"text":"這樣子的一個說法你認同嗎在你領導下的中選會你如何去避免這個選務公信力下降的問題你該如何把這個東西帶領好你真的覺得不再投票會有作票的風險嗎請你簡要回答就好選務行政的公信力是非常重要甚至是最重要的讓選民相信選舉的結果是公正的那但是呢"},{"start":3311.833,"end":3333.844,"text":"實施不在籍投票最大的困難是來自於執行面在可行性我覺得境外的影響等等可能是比較其次比較其次還是在於選務整個在操辦選務過程中遇到的一些新政的困難那你有沒有信心可以逐步的解決我不要講一步到位"},{"start":3335.611,"end":3362.568,"text":"如果立法院提了一個中選會沒辦法執行的一個方案壓垮中選會我也沒辦法在這邊跟您保證說一定就能夠做得好如果這樣的話是不負責任的好 謝謝教授 因為今天時間有限不過我建議你 後面還有很多委員要就教就直接回答這樣子就好了 好吧好 這給你一點點提醒跟建議 祝你今天順利 謝謝"},{"start":3366.075,"end":3371.099,"text":"謝謝我們感謝牛西廷委員質詢 我們請張志倫委員好謝謝主席各位媒體各位官員大家早有請這個中選會主委提名人游盈榮教授請游教授"},{"start":3393.646,"end":3412.842,"text":"好 教授好首先恭喜你成為中選會被提名人也預祝你可以順利當選那教授容我稱你教授那教授過去這個本席對你的了解不管是從這個電視上或是一些民調當中去了解您"},{"start":3413.542,"end":3441.572,"text":"那當然您對這個在去年的時候針對於這個大罷免的亂象你也公開提出這個批評甚至非常誠實的說這是對民主的傷害您的說法是執政黨就是參與發動這場全面性無差別的大罷免企圖奪回國會主導權不僅是台灣民主主流的民意的反對也會被其他民主國家不能接受"},{"start":3442.031,"end":3462.637,"text":"所以這個意思就是說大罷免不是民主之光反而是台灣民主之恥這是您說的嗎是 我講過是 好 那本席在這邊必須要稱讚您就是你願意講真話的風骨本席予以高度肯定那這邊我本席也要特別講在台灣這個民主史上不管是選舉"},{"start":3463.997,"end":3487.444,"text":"罷免或是公投在選舉制度上其實是蠻完整的一個制度可是在罷免跟公投上過去產生出了很多問題尤其在罷免上就您的這個評論來講就是執政黨其實利用了罷免裡面很多的漏洞來去做一些這個政黨政治的一些對決跟一些操作所以本席想要這邊特別跟你請教尤其是在罷免"},{"start":3489.105,"end":3507.984,"text":"這個每一個民意代表當選一年內可不可以執行罷免的這個連署的時候其實這個法是無明文規定的可是會造成這個社會上的一個對立所以本席必須要說選舉投票是一個民主的行為可是罷免它是一個"},{"start":3509.164,"end":3537.713,"text":"政黨的一個對決而且造成社會分裂而且是長期會造成一個情熱的問題投票你投誰大家非常清楚嘛而且這是秘密投票大家不知道你投誰可是罷免如果你沒有去連署的話會造成無盡的情熱啊而且說你沒有罷免我遇到很多民眾跟我講說他就是不想要連署罷免可是被民眾這樣子要求說一定要罷免要去簽連署還有一些攤販跟我講說他如果沒有去連署罷免他會人家會跟他恐嚇說"},{"start":3538.613,"end":3560.431,"text":"你這樣子我的生意讓你做不下去喔所以我覺得在當選一年內去做這樣子的這個罷免的連署喔其實就是現在整個制度上的一個漏洞那我看到你的報告裡面也有想說你未來會倡議說不能去進行這樣子一個動作請問你有沒有一些具體的做法或是未來可能會跟內政部去討論這樣的事情以目前的制度來看這個對於"},{"start":3568.07,"end":3594.737,"text":"罷免的規範是在選完一年之後也就是說當選一年之後才能夠進行罷免但是法律沒有禁止社會對就是說有相關的罷免的言論主委你同意這樣子這個不說言論是大家言論自由可是進行連署的一個方式您自己本身也是不贊成的對吧"},{"start":3594.977,"end":3616.751,"text":"我不贊成連署因為可以倡議那是言論自由那但是如果這個進行連署的話那就會對於我們想培養的這樣的一個成熟的政治文化是有傷的"},{"start":3617.959,"end":3635.172,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝教授教授你講的我覺得其實就是我們的心聲為什麼因為其實當時這個連署的一個過程造成社會分裂而且很多民眾其實被情的恐嚇這樣子的狀況其實非常的不好那也希望說未來你有機會擔任主委的時候也要多倡議這樣的行為變成說謝謝"},{"start":3637.854,"end":3656.091,"text":"那第二個我相信很多委員今天都有在跟你請教就是有關於不在籍投票的一個部分那不在籍投票其實目前其實我覺得這是非常重要因為現在就針對很多在投票所的工作人員他們其實有時候他們現在也是可以不在籍投票是嗎"},{"start":3657.892,"end":3675.62,"text":"所以現在的行之有年就是很多的工作人員其實在投票所的時候他們是可以進行不在籍投票所以本席有看到你的報告裡面寫說未來可行不在籍投票的順序第一個是移轉投票針對限定境內或身份特殊或者是戶籍地"},{"start":3676.44,"end":3697.195,"text":"在外的一些選務人員未來可以來考慮或者是在特定身份的不在意投票比如說這個援助民族或是服勤的警消人員等等我覺得這兩點我覺得非常重要因為第一個很多的公務人員或是警消人員其實他們的工作地跟戶籍地是不一樣的地方所以"},{"start":3698.115,"end":3725.265,"text":"這個部分本席也支持非常強烈支持您這樣的主張那是不是有一個期程說如果是不是可以先通過比如說我們一般的這個公務人員或是警消人員他們可以先來辦理這樣子的一個不在籍投票是不是可以請您回答是根據中選會最近的這個研究跟思考中選會是建議"},{"start":3726.646,"end":3746.421,"text":"不在籍投票先从单一的公民投票开始实施然后逐步的累积经验之后进一步推广到各项选举所以就这个角度来讲我觉得这样的一个态度是神圣的"},{"start":3746.969,"end":3766.956,"text":"是負責任的所以未來是不是能夠什麼時候哪一年能夠有一次公民投票然後在公民投票裡面試行不在籍投票然後我覺得那會是一個很重要的開始"},{"start":3767.486,"end":3790.026,"text":"好 了解 就是先從公民投票先起然後之後可能再就不特定人再來就是可能有進步有機會可以全面好 那我也希望主委這邊加速來實行那最後一個問題其實 針對其實當時我們這個立法院其實有決議一個這個公投的一個主題叫做反廢死"},{"start":3791.067,"end":3813.73,"text":"公投那當時是被中選會來就是否定這樣子的這個題目那因為當時這個議題有對很多民眾來講是非常的重要因為當時大家看到很多的這個殺人事件覺得說這樣現在的現在的民進黨政府就是不願意對現在比如說一些的案件去這個判死刑所以當然民眾覺得很"},{"start":3814.591,"end":3842.329,"text":"不能接受所以當時立法院才有這樣子的一個提案然後沒有想到被當時的中選會給否決那我想要請問主委當然你們否定也沒有當時你們有自己的理由啦那是不是針對這些民眾所關心的重要的這個公投的議題未來是不是有一些可以大家可以溝通的機會而不是說中選會直接把立法院提出的這些公投的主題直接給把它否定掉是 這是一個很複雜的問題我覺得"},{"start":3845.164,"end":3872.537,"text":"未來應該要多做溝通我覺得會比較好否則這裡面牽扯到太多複雜的問題沒有溝通的話引起強烈反彈對社會也不好好 謝謝教授聽到非常開心有機會第一次跟你這樣子面對面的質詢也期待你可以未來有機會可以當我們中選會的主委謝謝你 謝謝"},{"start":3878.535,"end":3899.786,"text":"謝謝我們感謝張志榮委員質詢我們家張宏祿委員我請我們的游主委加油教授"},{"start":3908.713,"end":3922.902,"text":"首先質詢前還是要稱老師好啦好 張委員好游教授是我大學的老師其實我很多的這個"},{"start":3926.298,"end":3946.306,"text":"這個政治學的東西都是游教授教導我的所以今天這樣問我是有點尷尬但是還是要問我想請問一下很多的委員也都有在關切這個不在即投票"},{"start":3947.066,"end":3967.352,"text":"但不在一起投票其實分了很多種大家現在一直在講一直在講其實慢慢的好像聚焦在移轉投票台灣現在大家一直慢慢聚焦在移轉投票其實我們中選會辦的就是選政的工作我們的選務的工作其實都是地方選委會在第一線在辦"},{"start":3968.892,"end":3992.427,"text":"那選政的工作我們就是說我想要請教游教授就是說其實台灣現在已經有部分的移轉投票我們投開票所的工作人員就有移轉投票那如果貿然的"},{"start":3994.111,"end":4020.493,"text":"要大規模的這個移轉投票我個人 我一個很擔心的問題我想不出解方也沒有任何人可以提出任何解方未來如果移轉投票變成是選政的一個改變的話我可不可以指定某些人去某個投開票所我去那邊投票跟開票"},{"start":4021.983,"end":4033.192,"text":"會不會有這種可能發生要看選區吧要看選區如果我為什麼要這樣講會變成買票"},{"start":4039.68,"end":4063.488,"text":"買票的人 我要求你收了我的錢你去特定的投開票所投票我買幾票 你沒有開出來幾票你就是給我跑票未來會發生這種情況如果發生這種情況我不知道各位被提名人你們有沒有解方"},{"start":4065.229,"end":4085.023,"text":"我相信目前都沒有解方啦我不知道教授您的看法我這樣講好了不再急投票我剛剛說的是世界的潮流民主國家採行不再急投票非常多那我們台灣在這方面其實已經落後很久了"},{"start":4091.98,"end":4120.609,"text":"所以要迎頭趕上我覺得在道理上是說得過去的不在即投票你讓許多無法返鄉的人去在他居住地投票這說起來社會上普遍也是會贊成的但是我也同意張委員剛剛所說的這可能會產生很多的問題包括你說的買票"},{"start":4122.754,"end":4140.047,"text":"這是因為我們台灣從來沒有實施過不在籍投票所以我們不知道會碰到什麼情況所以在這樣的情況底下事先當然應該做好非常周全的研究調查"},{"start":4142.133,"end":4167.047,"text":"然後考量各種因素然後再來進行我覺得目前中選會所提出的這樣的一個解決方式我覺得是可行的就是說我們要循序漸進不是一步到位我們一開始就在九合一選舉裡面全面性的弄不在即投票這個是太"},{"start":4169.86,"end":4192.07,"text":"太大膽而且太冒險的作為報復平和不足為訓是不是可以未來從公民投票開始先從那裡開始實施然後逐步的累積經驗然後解決了"},{"start":4193.513,"end":4205.585,"text":"我們社會或者是很多人們的疑慮我覺得這樣子分階段一步一步的走會是比較好的做法我也是這麼認為我覺得我們先從公投先對視"},{"start":4210.39,"end":4228.489,"text":"對勢來移轉投票 為什麼呢我也覺得這個不再急投票很多的國家都這樣做那台灣要不要跟著做我覺得這是一個很崇高的理想我也不反對但台灣有特殊的買票文化"},{"start":4229.471,"end":4248.428,"text":"美國會買票嗎不會吧對不對但台灣這個買票文化我們從報紙上就看得非常的清楚到處都有在買票幾十年來都是這樣那如果我們對人的選舉也實施移轉投票"},{"start":4250.117,"end":4272.243,"text":"我們的對岸中國我跟你講透過大規模的買票這個是對台灣一個非常嚴重的一個災難所以我個人我是認為對全國性的公投事情我們可以先來做做看為什麼我要這樣我必須再說我辦過選舉我是"},{"start":4275.958,"end":4294.054,"text":"縣選委會的總幹事我當了四年從村里長的選舉到總統的選舉我都親自辦過我跟你講 選務的複雜程度啊超乎大家的想像我們連一張選票連那個有汙損或印得不好"},{"start":4295.563,"end":4315.906,"text":"我們要一張一張選票這樣去看從頭到尾看到尾那個每個人壓力有多大如果你要移轉投票我跟你講問題太多了我要光說一個你連投票通知單 你選舉公報他要移轉去那裡 要誰去送到時候他說我沒有收到"},{"start":4317.217,"end":4338.15,"text":"這個有很多技術性的問題所以我必須要說移轉投票不是不行但不能照進照進會把台灣馬上一次垮掉如果一次選舉的不公平大家以後對選委會這個公信力就不在我常講一句選委會"},{"start":4340.034,"end":4356.856,"text":"如果你要辦選舉我多給你人多給你錢很多技術性是可以克服的但公信力是最重要的一件事選務公信力三個字是最重要的所以我還是覺得主委教授"},{"start":4358.459,"end":4375.749,"text":"如果你的看法也是一樣就是從事情先來我覺得應該是先朝這個方向不可以一次太躁進不知道教授的看法我完全同意你的看法我覺得這樣做對台灣是比較好的好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張宏祿委員接受我們請黃姐的委員"},{"start":4395.336,"end":4399.985,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請游盈隆被提名人加油教授"},{"start":4408.376,"end":4428.723,"text":"好黃委員好是好 邱董事長先跟您請教這個不在即投票其實您剛剛已經有提到一個重點就是說不在即投票雖然世界各地有很多國家在施行但是我們不一定要這樣冒進而且如果直接用九合一大選來貿然的進行的話會是一場災難"},{"start":4430.143,"end":4445.269,"text":"這是您剛剛的論調那我在這邊也想要附和這個論點因為其實大家也知道說選舉的公信力是最重要的那選舉如果我們九合一大選直接開始施行不在籍投票的話您剛剛是說會增加9000種選票是嗎就選票的種類來講是將近9000種"},{"start":4452.89,"end":4481.663,"text":"是的這就是一個非常重大的技術性的問題所以我在這邊想請教的是你們有沒有先算過如果九合一大選只要直接使用不在籍投票會要增加幾倍的經費幾倍的人力多少個投開票所因為我還沒有上任我只是努力的去收集相關的訊息我不知道中選會是不是已經評估出來我目前手邊沒有這樣的資訊"},{"start":4482.813,"end":4508.899,"text":"好那我在這邊先提供一些資訊喔在2021年內政部其實有大概統計過就是說如果這一些就學就業沒有涉戶籍那可能會因為不在籍投票而可能可以投票的人大概第一名是在雙北大概就有37.4萬人那第二名會在台中有26.5萬人第三名是桃園有26萬人第四名是台北有18.5萬人"},{"start":4510.479,"end":4532.57,"text":"那如果這些人通通來申請這個不在籍投票大概就是會增加大概百萬人以上那這個是2021年的數字那台北市的選委會當時也有出來說光是這個投開票所可能就要增加三倍以上那如果現在年底就要來做這件事情的話您覺得可行嗎您就一個選務機關的考量來說選籍"},{"start":4538.315,"end":4559.823,"text":"2026地方選舉是11月28號舉行今天正好1月28號 就是10個月左右我覺得直覺上是不可行的事實上最近中選會也曾經行文給各地方的選舉委員會"},{"start":4562.025,"end":4582.059,"text":"各地方選舉委員會也都回報關於不在籍投票地方的態度沒有一個選委會是同意在這一次採行不在籍投票的所以地方事實上也是挫雷彈"},{"start":4583.815,"end":4613.515,"text":"是嗎因為就我剛剛說的光是台北就說要增加三倍了更不用說其他像是新北台中這一些可能不在籍的人口有大概三四十萬人的這一些選區喔那所以我覺得這當然是一個很大的技術性的挑戰但是話說回來剛剛其實有一句話我其實沒有很認同是剛剛這個有董事長說我們台灣沒有實施不在籍投票跟國際上相比來說是落後的"},{"start":4614.255,"end":4642.064,"text":"那我必須要說其他的國家跟台灣的情況大大的不同啊你不能拿台灣的情況跟世界各地來比啊請問其他國家有中共借選嗎有一些想要試圖來破壞我們台灣民主的這些境外勢力嗎沒有嘛那再來其他的國家有像台灣這樣經歷過這些什麼中立事件等等買票做票的過去選舉舞弊的歷史嗎"},{"start":4642.924,"end":4663.144,"text":"也沒有嘛所以台灣的過去民主的歷史是非常艱辛的我們是這樣一步一步大家靠著人民的信任人民的爭取那我相信游董事長過去也是經過這些民主的事件努力撐起台灣的民主的所以一直拿國外來跟台灣比較我覺得非常的不公平"},{"start":4663.664,"end":4677.66,"text":"那台灣現在需要的是一個非常可信穩定而且有這個選舉公正性的民主制度所以任何的變革我認為都必須要在非常的可信而且公正的基礎上來進行選務的變革沒有不行"},{"start":4680.683,"end":4706.652,"text":"但是前提非常非常的重要因為台灣的民主很辛苦我們是這樣撐起來的所以在這邊還是拜託我們這個游董事長如果要回答說不再投票是國際的趨勢的時候拜託想想台灣自己特殊的歷史拜託想想台灣過去是怎麼走過來的所以不要一味的說要跟國際上來比較這真的不是一朝一夕可以做到的"},{"start":4706.952,"end":4720.846,"text":"那最後會有一點時間我跟您請教這個公投綁大選因為過去有董事長一直都是支持公投綁大選的所以在這邊想請教那如果您未來上任之後您還是支持公投綁大選嗎"},{"start":4722.332,"end":4740.66,"text":"我當然支持公投綁大憲而且也沒有不支持的空間因為法律已經修正了所以我在這邊就要請教的是沒錯因為這個藍白還是強行的又再次通過了嘛那我要請教的是那您要怎麼務實的解決過去2018發生的邊開票邊投票的問題開票到半夜三點的問題以及這些因為人綁事而造成這個沒有辦法好好的討論公投議題"},{"start":4751.844,"end":4778.079,"text":"以上這些問題直接民主是民進黨的核心價值我過去二十幾年來當我是一個民進黨黨員的時候我實際的參與相關的事務無數的民主前輩為了能夠實現公投犧牲奉獻他們的青春生命自由"},{"start":4779.409,"end":4801.982,"text":"所以公投是一個民進黨的核心價值是所有的民主國家應該要追求的是的 我們都認同我們也非常支持公投制度所以我在這邊跟您請教的是如何防範重演2018邊開票邊投票以及開票到半夜三點以及這些可能會影響選舉結果的可能的情況再度出現"},{"start":4803.571,"end":4831.354,"text":"2018年是一個噩夢而且這個噩夢的形成有一些條件支持其中一個那您如何預防未來不會再重演呢這是一個選務機關最重要的工作我可以說明一下嗎2018那一次有十項公投這十項公投選委會公告之後一個多月而已就要投票"},{"start":4832.614,"end":4852.905,"text":"所以造成整個秩序大亂 這是其中一個所以這一次 經過這幾年來朝野的共同體認之後修法所以將公告之後一個月就投票 改成三個月這是一個很重要的改變第二個"},{"start":4854.778,"end":4877.605,"text":"以前辦理那麼龐大的選務一半法律規定一半是要軍公教人員現在也修正成三分之一只需要三分之一所以我在這邊希望您可以承諾既然公投綁大選是您的立場也是您的責任那未來希望你可以承諾在你的任內絕對不會再發生2018的噩夢我們盡力而為這個要請你保證謝謝"},{"start":4883.663,"end":4898.925,"text":"好 謝謝備題名人 謝謝黃建委員好 接下來有請王美惠委員主席男嘉游教授有請備題名人 謝謝"},{"start":4905.129,"end":4917.502,"text":"王委員好你好在這幾天的過程當中我們有看到你的履歷剛才你說到你人家告訴你要做檔門這個節目的時候也有一邊高興"},{"start":4925.197,"end":4947.497,"text":"也有一邊為了理想而走因為在這個過程當中我們的選舉委員會中選會是要有中立的在剛才本席所聽的好歡樂的就是覺得大家都想你長久以來是在民意教育基金會裡面擔任當事長"},{"start":4950.834,"end":4955.083,"text":"剛才有很多委員請教說你可以當時時你說你如果"},{"start":4962.05,"end":4975.673,"text":"這個人事案過 過得馬上死因為我覺得好的理想雖然是夢死 有的人也說你每天都在批評民進黨那是怎麼來做這個因為我覺得有擔當的執政黨裡面"},{"start":4987.495,"end":5010.684,"text":"應該無論他是我什麼人 他是北平什麼人今天我們要做政府單位是看他的認知所以在這裡我保證 我在這裡也是國民黨也是我們的朋友任何一黨都是我們的朋友為了理想 為了建設"},{"start":5012.125,"end":5018.711,"text":"我們都要做法表這是最好的 如果不做朋友 我們也沒辦法不可能說法表當中 你的總選委跟你不共同 不一樣的想法 你就不採納他的意見跟他的想法 大家討論之後 才可以"},{"start":5036.987,"end":5047.465,"text":"有好好的問題出來所以在這個過程當中最重要最重要在那裡大家差不多都說不再舉投票高雄你有說"},{"start":5050.014,"end":5055.615,"text":"可以為公道開始但是在這個過程中你剛才有回答過跟我們是怎麼理會一般人會亂吵吵會這麼多人會開票的時候又有人又要投票因為這種我相信在你的代言之下以後可能不會再來發生也不是可能而已一定不會再來發生"},{"start":5077.742,"end":5092.223,"text":"在不在一起投票的時候有很多人歡樂的就是像我們的孫悟寧原譬如他在黨區做孫悟寧原像我自己來說"},{"start":5094.005,"end":5106.135,"text":"他在當局的補考在當局的 但是他算不領完譬如是在第一樓的票箱第一樓的票箱不是他應該到的地方 因為他有申請嘛但是在這個過程裡面 你覺得他最高興的就是議員都一樣"},{"start":5119.859,"end":5128.343,"text":"市長都一樣縣和里長不一樣他這張票如果沒投出來是人家縣的里長還是他沒投里長大家都知道所以告訴你"},{"start":5136.208,"end":5163.467,"text":"在這裡面我就是說我們教育也好 全國也好我們今天是要講全國的 但是我是批論這個情形給你聽因為我們中華民國的台灣的選舉是大家最近都認為最好的雖然是很古早 但是改進到有夠好的因為我們那些黨議會"},{"start":5165.288,"end":5175.031,"text":"就是我們有一個派出兵在派出兵當中有時候會應用到選舉因為我常常說好的人才認真發表的民意代表我們一定鼓勵他當選但是在這個過程當中不再是投票有時候會去應用到選舉的結果"},{"start":5192.675,"end":5198.517,"text":"所以在這要問教授不再審投票本身跟你說因為有時候選票票數也很多也有現在都回到選票票數也有但是在選票票數你如果在本層第三張很多選票票的人在那裡大他不覺得什麼他如果兇勇去申請一個"},{"start":5219.742,"end":5225.848,"text":"我自己人都沒有在那裡的票檔我今天的票投出來這樣才算閉路投票啦告訴你來會談我所有擔心的事情我們大家來做參考因為未來這可能"},{"start":5241.321,"end":5260.808,"text":"也會逐一去改善來翁委員所擔心的一個秘密投票可能破功出問題這確實是一個問題要去注意另外就是說你一開始的計較說我批評民進黨很多我在這裡向翁委員報告"},{"start":5268.907,"end":5274.112,"text":"我都是九十輪輸 沒特別去批評民進黨我也是批評共產黨 對啦我也是批評共民黨 高師傅我現在你可能 國會有我的意思高師傅我現在是說以我民進黨的 有人說跟你們去提名這一點點要批評你"},{"start":5288.886,"end":5291.388,"text":"我來說民進黨會出的任財不分什麼 不可以說跟他批評我們說我們不好我們就不體面他啊 因為他有他的專財嘛我剛才是說這樣 因為我認為很多人都說過的 欠費到買廢人"},{"start":5313.084,"end":5315.006,"text":"所以我要跟你說的就是有這個生活我相信你也聽到了你說的說 你說的事實但是有的人覺得說有需要"},{"start":5327.723,"end":5332.33,"text":"這樣做嘛這時候我覺得說要讓這個國家愛好像你這個領袖一定很讚的啦我這時候要問你不再只投票你要怎麼去改善本縣兩個"},{"start":5345.047,"end":5347.41,"text":"會擔憂啦 憂及濫捕人如果去到台北 我再跟你說有兩個地方有很多嫁給人 那都沒差那挑剔憂心裡 我才剛才還說如果派出兵"},{"start":5359.977,"end":5365.02,"text":"我們的生活他有辦法用另外一個生活這個票房跟你們的小家庭你們兩個阿嬤去住而已這要怎麼處理這才是最重要的啦跟我是來講"},{"start":5375.93,"end":5377.872,"text":"前幾天我是想問是怎麼邀請你來 因為你有你的專長我認為批評不是壞的 批評可以讓一個人改變他的生活可以做得更好"},{"start":5395.288,"end":5398.891,"text":"這是在我都覺得很關鍵的像我 我有時候也會覺得說我們做得不好應該要怎麼做才對啦來謝謝黃委員的指教 全份了解這個不在即投票 我剛才也已經跟大家報告在這裡再說一次就是說"},{"start":5419.181,"end":5436.827,"text":"不在即投票是一個很複雜的事情不是說發作就去做那是會造成很大的問題像這災難所以要循序漸進中商會有提出一個完整的草案給鄉長"},{"start":5438.207,"end":5459.941,"text":"行政議也通過 交給立法院所以是不是可以用風雄來努力累積經驗來盡量檢討它可能造成的問題包括翁議員你所說的 閉閉投票這種很重要的事情對 剛才我還有兩三個問題我想我這幾天的時間也夠了待會我們再來探討 希望"},{"start":5466.032,"end":5483.496,"text":"我們可以做得更好因為我的想法就是不管你是來自在座的也有很多特等都提出的人才所以我們應該是樂觀青春可以讓中選會加入去做更好的事情不是在這裡說分什麼黨的 怎樣怎樣"},{"start":5490.501,"end":5503.186,"text":"這樣是不應該的 如果要問什麼東西在座的都不可能今天來到這裡 以上謝謝王美惠委員 那要提名人請回交接一下我們這裡陳佩儀委員之行"},{"start":5520.031,"end":5549.723,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請貝提銘仁貝提銘仁好董事長早安我剛剛坐在現場聽了非常多的委員跟您請教了關於不再急投票你的立場非常的清楚就是不再急投票如果貿然實施會是一個大災難那我們就接下來看大家都沒有想到的一個問題我覺得非常的可怕"},{"start":5550.182,"end":5568.566,"text":"不確定董事長你有沒有注意到在去年11月我們立法院在藍白惡意強力主導之下通過了公投綁大選而且他說投票案公告成立後一到六個月就要舉行公投這個是針對人民的部分"},{"start":5569.006,"end":5590.619,"text":"可是呢公投法又有規定董事長他說如果是總統交付或是立法院或是行政院提案的特殊公投案不適用相關的頻率跟日期的規定就是沒有一定要兩年才能辦一次所以我可不可以假設一個情況請中選會想一想也請董事長你考慮一下怎麼回答第一個"},{"start":5591.139,"end":5617.14,"text":"假設今天真的有立法院藍白黨團惡意再提出一個在今年年底大選以前就來提出一個立法院本身提出的公投案然後逼你們中選會因為剛剛主委你一直被提名人你一直說你支持公投綁大選那我就看年底選舉的時候只要立法院藍白黨團對中選會提出相關的公投案不管是什麼主題"},{"start":5618.701,"end":5640.063,"text":"那你們就要處理喔可是你剛剛跟我說你支持公投綁大選這是第一個情況那年底就會有九合一大選加上公投綁大選這是第一個困境第二個困境假設我在想像一現在網路上有非常多人在帶風向跟有相關於情討論相關幕僚可不可以讓我問完讓我問完因為第二個問題比較難"},{"start":5642.23,"end":5656.933,"text":"好 第二個問題第二個問題就是假設有人他發起一個運動叫做我假設年底真的有兩種票可以投一個是公投票一個是九合一大選票可是我只申請移轉不再期投票部分我只申請公投"},{"start":5657.834,"end":5679.416,"text":"的部分可是我不在我那個九合一大選我還是繼續在我的原戶口地方投然後呢我就開始在網路上製造一個輿論叫做是你們中選會為難我你害我只能放棄某一種選票因為可能我一個票在台北一個票在花蓮可是假設我當天又沒有辦法兩地趕著投票那他不去問他自己為什麼要操作這種行為"},{"start":5680.037,"end":5706.11,"text":"他就會問中選會假設您真的當選主委之後這絕對會是一個難題請不要說我可能過度惡意的想像我必須說現在的台灣社會確實有非常多人是刻意要製造混亂製造國內的不團結甚至在這種看起來像民生事務上給相關行政機關你們造成困難就算中選會是一個獨立機構請問被候選人被提名人你怎麼看 謝謝"},{"start":5707.851,"end":5734.902,"text":"首先關於公投綁大選的大是大非的問題他不是大是大非不好意思董事長我認為他是一個相關配套因為辛苦的是我們基層的選務人員就像您剛剛一開始有說他會動到非常非常多選票的規劃從2004年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選也都很順利的舉行了"},{"start":5736.858,"end":5760.65,"text":"2008年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選國民黨相對也提出兩個四個案也順利辦完了公投綁大選今天碰到的問題是2018的那一場災難因為那一場災難所以大家想說怎麼樣避免災難重現"},{"start":5762.079,"end":5790.738,"text":"我剛剛跟大家報告說 其中2018年為什麼是獨特的我也希望它是獨特的 不會再發生了那是因為它件數這麼多 十個然後又是在中選會公告一個月多一點的時間馬上進行投票 所以整個選務大亂所以在這種情況底下 我覺得"},{"start":5793.272,"end":5803.322,"text":"抱歉讓我這樣講西方有一句話不要倒洗澡水連嬰孩一起倒掉意思就是說"},{"start":5813.82,"end":5822.482,"text":"公投是重要的跟選舉綁在一起利益甚佳而且過去的經驗也證明說是可以沒有問題"},{"start":5823.957,"end":5848.674,"text":"所以我剛才進一步跟您請教因為我時間有限我等一下會被主席請下台所以我剛剛問假設有人立法院提案就要在今年大選的時候他真的就有公投題目可以一起投然後又有一群選民假設他真的要惡意操作製造台灣內部的分裂跟不團結氣氛那我就申請我的公民投票部分我可能在AD可是我的九合一大選我還是回到我的戶籍地"},{"start":5849.034,"end":5866.814,"text":"然後到最後說是你們中選會害他不得不拋棄其中某一種投票的權利請問我們怎麼預防這個問題我認為現在的困境就是各種荒謬的狀況真的都很有可能在台灣發生從立法院開始到很多不同黨籍的委員尤其是在野黨的委員"},{"start":5867.655,"end":5886.841,"text":"斷了製造非常多分裂跟惡意的這種對話跟論述所以我必須要提出這麼看似很荒謬的問題但是不可能因為只要是立法院提案或是行政院或是總統交付特殊的提案他就可以不用受兩年頻率這個限制是 我也很希望這種很獨特的狀況不會發生"},{"start":5889.002,"end":5905.577,"text":"但如果發生了呢我也希望不要發生那如果發生我也希望不要發生目前這個所以主委您聽被提名的聽懂我的意思了對不對我當然充分了解您意思中選會公告之後三個月目前新的法律規定是這樣子"},{"start":5906.4,"end":5935.477,"text":"對啊所以他只要在下個會期立法院只要有人惡意要操作這個題目我們立法院真的就可以提出一個公投提案然後逼你們中選會表態你們要不要支持這個公投提案讓他走入公投然後年底的時候就公投綁大選我們沒辦法處理政治問題中選會處理行務問題那所以我剛剛說嘛好那假設回到人民我剛剛的意思就是說我陳培餘的戶籍如果在花蓮我就回去花蓮投九合一可是我公投的題目我就把它移轉到台北我住的地方"},{"start":5935.882,"end":5958.645,"text":"那最後我創造一個輿論跟氛圍就是是你們中選會害我不得不拋棄其中一種選票因為就是在去年藍白惡意主導公投綁大選硬要這樣通過所以我認為更多的惡意操作都是有可能的那我基於一個負責任的民意代表我認為我有需要跟被提名先討論這個問題當然相關的惡意的做法可能不是"},{"start":5959.065,"end":5977.607,"text":"在您的想像當中但是我現在就先提出這個疑問當然我相信後續的很多討論跟配套假設在事件發生之後真的要拜託你們假設你們都能夠成功通過被提名然後成為中選會的委員當然這就是你們要頭痛的事情但我想我身為一個民主的後輩過去看您非常多民主的成就"},{"start":5977.947,"end":6000.545,"text":"我必須要在這裡跟您報告過去這兩年來在這一屆立法院確實就很有可能有相關惡意的操作那甚至有相關的支持者就予以配合他真的就會出現我的公投票在台北而我的九合一回到花蓮然後我就說是你們中選會害我只能投其中一種票以上這是我給您的建議好 我們會留意這方面的情況好 謝謝"},{"start":6002.891,"end":6014.934,"text":"謝謝我們感謝陳培宇執行我們現在吳石瑤立委執行謝謝主席辛苦了有請我們有備提名人現在有備提名人"},{"start":6030.526,"end":6032.708,"text":"我想我破題非常清楚當政治越紛擾的時候"},{"start":6049.464,"end":6078.306,"text":"中選會的選務就要越公正超越黨派而且要守憲合法這是每一個從政人員我想未來大家有機會如果通過同意權我們在宣誓的時候的誓詞就是於誓以至誠恪遵憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使職權所以超越黨派跟守憲合法是重要的下一頁"},{"start":6080.321,"end":6097.775,"text":"我這邊列出來私藥自己認為的成功的選務的三要素他當然要是公正的他也是要效率的他更要能夠變明這是選務成功的三要素我也認為中選會的委員的四個要件獨立行使職權"},{"start":6099.116,"end":6128.102,"text":"基於專業而且要能夠公正更要首先合法我的選務三要素跟中選會委員的四要件我們未來的這個主委提名人游老師應當都認可吧有沒有補充的完全認可好謝謝我要跟您報告思堯在努力的面向不談政治中選會有很多可以做得更好導入design thinking不曉得老師您對於design thinking有什麼樣的理解"},{"start":6130.72,"end":6157.111,"text":"Design Thinking沒關係 我來替您說明好了賈伯斯曾經說Design is not how it looksDesign is about how it works也就是Design Thinking不只是大家說設計美學事實上它是以使用者為切入點讓整個事情更有效率而且可以解決問題"},{"start":6158.669,"end":6175.842,"text":"所以我曾經因為台灣設計研究院是思堯在任內催生的一個新設的國家的組織透過設計的導入來攪動我們的公共政策也提升公共服務的效能跟品質所以設計院成立之後我們去跟很多部會敲敲門"},{"start":6177.063,"end":6191.602,"text":"我也帶著設計院去向前主委李敬勇先生敲敲門希望能夠導入Design Thinking讓我們的選務更進步更親民更有效率所以這是我當時2021年拜訪李前主委的時候來下一頁"},{"start":6193.106,"end":6222.486,"text":"而我們改變了什麼我希望未來的中選會的委員們都能夠持續來推動吳思瑤催生中選會CES設計院投入我們改革了選舉的很多的更進步更變明也更美學的這些做法第一個在投票動線的優化左邊是before右邊是after他更讓大家在有限的空間的移動更有效率就是design的導入"},{"start":6223.786,"end":6248.002,"text":"他在選舉公報的優化上 過去很多人說選舉公報要這麼細膩 排版就是非常的unfriendly所以我們找了設計師design thinking以後after是在後面非常清楚讓大家可以一覽所有候選人他的政見相關的學經歷這是設計導入的正向成果 下一頁"},{"start":6249.636,"end":6268.284,"text":"設計導入呢還包括這些標識系統的革新越美越清晰不會永遠都是標凱體不要永遠是中華民國美學而這樣的選舉美學我們獲得世界級的Good Design設計獎獲得亞洲最具影響力的設計獎"},{"start":6269.444,"end":6274.126,"text":"也獲得台灣的經典設計獎所以我希望未來的委員們都能夠持續的來優化這些design thinking導入我們的選務下一頁當然還包括 圈選票處我們真的也讓它更簡潔 更俐落 更好看而不是數十年如一日我們小時候真的投票就是這樣到現在立法院自己的圈選票處還是長一樣"},{"start":6294.796,"end":6308.22,"text":"是可以革新的我想先就這個正面的分享給大家我想主委大家應當都可以如果後續需要思堯很樂意再串聯設計界跟中選會合作主委未來的主委OK嗎我非常的"},{"start":6314.122,"end":6339.323,"text":"因為司法委員剛剛有繞英文我覺得這個就是中選會未來需要的中選會未來需要我是一個進步改革主義者所以任何能夠進步能夠改革的都是好的事情選舉更有效率選舉更美學選舉更變明然後大家對於選舉去投開票所的心情可能也好起來很好"},{"start":6341.304,"end":6365.775,"text":"讓我再講一句我沒有想到我在今天來立法院可以看到這些新的觀念我簡直是Unbelievable所以立法院是有認真問政優質進步的立委而不是只有毀憲亂政的黨團很好下一頁當然不在即投票是今天的重點我剛剛講的選舉的三要素"},{"start":6366.195,"end":6380.567,"text":"公正效率跟便民提案的民眾黨團顯然只著重在降低選民投票成成本的那個便民的思考但是對於公正性跟選舉的效率他會造成選務的混亂甚至影響秘密投票甚至"},{"start":6381.247,"end":6404.083,"text":"也或多或少有境外借選風險增高的疑慮產生對於整個投票民主制度的信任危機所以呢絕對不能先求有再求好我們都支持行政院的版本您剛剛也說公投先行嘛好這是我們共同立場我們希望未來大家一起來捍衛這樣子的做法下一頁而以"},{"start":6404.895,"end":6425.486,"text":"我們行政院去徵詢了這些執行者選務機關的代表對於不在籍投票欠缺配套的狀況之下是all say no21縣市認為現在可以上路的是0個縣市甚至連民眾黨提案黨團他們自己執政的新竹市也認為不可能"},{"start":6427.907,"end":6436.814,"text":"所以呢過半的縣市也都支持行政院的版本公投先行我希望我今天要多花一點時間為什麼要跟主席多爭取一點時間因為民眾黨團的不在即投票他們就是這一屆立法院的壞習慣近乎二讀啊"},{"start":6444.841,"end":6463.439,"text":"委員會沒有討論啊直接不翼而決啊很有可能這週搞不好禮拜五又拿出來表決了所以今天有這個機會跟大家討論我就是希望能夠把這些數據告訴國人告訴社會台灣沒有一個縣市的選務機關認為不在即投票現在可以上路"},{"start":6463.979,"end":6490.61,"text":"NO所以我們就要審慎公投先行是多數的共識下頁而我們以投票意願這是我做的其實台灣的選舉投票率都是七成以上對於這些已經有不在籍投票有不同的可能是電子郵票可能是境外投票不同的行使的這些不在籍投票的國家台灣的投票率都是高的"},{"start":6491.11,"end":6509.685,"text":"除了南韓 南韓有他這一次總統大選不同的政治社會經濟的背景所以說不再投票並不是等同於高投票意願的這個思維我要在這裡論述 在下一頁更重要的是 未來這是大家的事情我們要辦一個讓人民滿意的選舉"},{"start":6511.072,"end":6519.34,"text":"而你看看台灣目前選務的滿意度2024年總統立委選舉84%的人民滿意給各縣市的選委會跟中選會拍拍手2022地方選舉滿意度83.2%2020總統立委選舉滿意度86.9%唯一一次就是剛剛未來的這個主委候選人說的"},{"start":6537.396,"end":6557.089,"text":"災難的2018的那一次公投房大學滿意度是28不滿意度高達68.6%這更要讓我們看到人民的聲音好我跳到我最後一個主題好嗎對不起因為有民調專家我還是想問一下這一題主委"},{"start":6558.792,"end":6566.754,"text":"我一直叫您主委他未來的主委你認為在台灣中共競選境外勢力競選的嚴重嗎有這麼難回答嗎我坦白講作為一個嚴謹的政治學者來講我要回答的是說感覺上很嚴重"},{"start":6586.178,"end":6598.011,"text":"事實上政府沒有找到非常多的證據來證明它很嚴重所以我覺得我們應該審慎地去評估這件事情因為主席站起來證據在這裡 證據在這裡看清楚"},{"start":6602.446,"end":6618.943,"text":"法務部公布中國借選的手段境外資金的借選網路選舉的賭盤跟認知作戰假訊息的操作2024年被偵辦的依反滲透法的案件境外勢力借選117件287人這個不是證據嗎 主委 下一頁"},{"start":6626.317,"end":6639.833,"text":"而國民黨黨主席的選舉是自己自家的人跳出來批評的我就不再贅述了中國的借選變本加厲我們就是要欲提從寬料敵從嚴下一頁"},{"start":6643.735,"end":6659.098,"text":"各國都有韓國加拿大澳洲美國印度甚至在美國這種民主的國家中國可以利用製造假駕照的方式大量的協助中國的僑民去投票假駕照的方式"},{"start":6659.739,"end":6686.695,"text":"所以世界各國面對中國的借選都在進行ING的防範主委 我們不要掩耳盜鈴您是民調專家 我問您一個專業的問題現在都有民調禁制期在選舉前公布的日期您覺得現在是幾天 您知道嗎10天您認為如果要調整 同意嗎未嘗不可"},{"start":6687.675,"end":6704.173,"text":"未嘗不可 那調整到幾天是可以接受的幾天好您的我尊重 台灣是民主社會現在國民黨立委要調變三天啦太危險啦 太危險啦我們回到前一頁"},{"start":6705.868,"end":6720.12,"text":"我們看看喔中國受益記者與退休教授捏造9次不實民調遭判刑司法判刑張顯耀先生涉嫌受中國指示發布講民調介入選舉遭起訴這都是司法偵辦換言之為什麼66%民主國家有選舉的民調"},{"start":6723.123,"end":6723.343,"text":"太短"},{"start":6747.498,"end":6770.254,"text":"太短嗎所以就專業論專業我覺得我們今天做一個非常好的示範沒有政黨立場我們超越黨派就專業論專業我們期待每一個委員都是獨立的專業的首先合法的以及能夠公正行使職權的最後一個提醒您提醒主席拍謝下一頁公投的那個這一個"},{"start":6773.496,"end":6779.772,"text":"國民黨提出修公統法要用公民覆決來推翻憲判主委你認為呢"},{"start":6781.392,"end":6809.717,"text":"這會是一個高度爭議性的問題所以我剛剛說中學會委員要守憲合法不問黨派守憲合法是基本的底線憲法78條司法院統一解釋憲法之權憲法訴訟法38條所有的憲法判決人民各機關都要服從而人民就包括公投行使的這些主體人民釋字185號也說明了不容挑戰用任何方式來推翻憲判"},{"start":6810.237,"end":6835.906,"text":"公投法第二條也規定公投的實施要遵循憲法的規定我要提醒大家未來的立法院一再的毀憲亂政要用公投法的修正來凌駕憲法未來這個難題可能會落在各位委員你們在審查公投案的當下我要提醒不看黨派不看顏色守憲合法是我們每一個人宣誓就職"},{"start":6838.7,"end":6847.929,"text":"的誓詞請大家謹記在心好謝謝游老師我今天多次稱呼您主委不好意思僭越了被提名人游盈隆先生我們一起加油謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳思堯委員質詢我們請黃建斌召委質詢抱歉讓你等很久謝謝"},{"start":6869.185,"end":6878.691,"text":"好 謝謝召委 主席我們先有請我們貝提名人游盈隆先生上台貝提名人游教授"},{"start":6882.697,"end":6898.354,"text":"老師好黃委員好老師好 老師因為目前還在這個人事審查階段嘛所以本席就先稱呼為有董事長其實我相信台灣的民眾對你都不陌生你過去擔任過民進黨副秘書長還有海基會副董事長那在政壇的"},{"start":6900.052,"end":6920.889,"text":"經歷非常豐富是我們的大前輩後來擔任台灣民意基金會董事長也經常發布民調跟時事的評論很多見解其實常常引起回響像是去年民進黨發動主導大罷免結果大失敗的時候你就非常直率的說大罷免是惡意的在排除在野黨"},{"start":6922.977,"end":6941.162,"text":"但是它不會被選民所接受然後你更直接的批評說民進黨推動大罷免毫無正當性那可以說是民主之詞那本是要對於你雖然出身民進黨但卻有足夠的勇氣來說出民眾的心聲並且給予我們執政者中肯的這個建議這件事情我們想要你格鬥的這個困難"},{"start":6942.322,"end":6967.967,"text":"那尤其身為現在身為中選會主委的這個被提名人擔任這樣的角色就是必須要能夠超越黨派然後克尊中立那帶領我們中選會發揮本來應該要發揮這個超然獨一的這個功能因為在過去我們中選會的中都被人家下面加一個新被批評是中心的中這個很一樣他不是中於人民是中於執政黨所以"},{"start":6969.071,"end":6983.864,"text":"舉例來說在大罷免期間很多立委辦公室都發韓文去中選會希望能夠提供一些相關的資料那中選會都用行政流程的理由然後一拖再拖就有這些不願意給立委提供給立委的這些資料"},{"start":6984.685,"end":7008.041,"text":"甚至都還沒有經過中選會的這個會議的審議通過就霸團跟這些媒體都有辦法先拿到然後接下來就是在網路上公開然後帶風向那發生這樣的情況就是相對是非常明顯有違反這個中選會這個有違反這個行政中立甚至有泄密這個嫌疑那這也是為什麼中選會長期以來形象一直不好的這個原因之一就是因為他雙標讓他認為他雙標沒有"},{"start":7010.822,"end":7034.471,"text":"做到這個客手超然獨立這個立場因此本席也希望說如果未來老師有順利成為中選會的主委一定要無往出眾那秉持客觀中立勇於對執政者提出建議說真話甚至批評的這個勇氣這是我們大家符合大家對你原本的這些期待那接下來本席要針對溫泉中有關於不在籍投票的議題來跟您討論"},{"start":7035.356,"end":7057.242,"text":"就是你在問卷中的回應是說不在即投票涉及憲法保障人民參政權擴大政治參與意義重大你舉雙手贊成這點本席給予肯定因為你的態度非常清楚明確就是說當你也聽到說不在即投票當然還有許多行政跟技術上的問題需要來克服那"},{"start":7058.777,"end":7082.93,"text":"這個但是問題是身為選務機關的選務主管機關應該要站在守護人民投票權當出發點那努力去解決問題克服困體才對所以因此本席也希望說如果老師你就任主委的時候能夠更進一步積極的來推動不在籍投票特別是針對這個偏鄉還有原住民地區來優先實行那為什麼本席會這樣講因為"},{"start":7084.574,"end":7101.843,"text":"我來住台東 台東就是一個偏鄉我們很多人都在外面工作 求學 很多的原因所以在每次要回去投票要花很多的成本這成本不只是交通上的成本 包括時間上的成本跟主委分享一下 像台北到台東坐火車四個小時"},{"start":7102.663,"end":7119.864,"text":"那到台東市 你要到其他的鄉鎮可能還要一到兩個小時的時間他可能投票就要花一天的時間這個是都會區沒有辦法想像你可能早上出去投票三十分鐘 人家知道有什麼事情在外面講話要花一天的時間這是偏鄉很大很大的投票上的困難那像我們2024年的總統大選"},{"start":7121.909,"end":7148.752,"text":"的投票率我們全台東縣是62%相較全國平均是72%我們才有10%因為先本市才太廣所以會影響到人民投票的意願這是本市支持不再投票最主要原因那希望我們在外工作這些台東的子弟或讀書的學子能夠也能夠享有跟其他人一樣投票的權利不會因為距離影響了投票的意願最後我也要再呼籲一下游董事長就是說"},{"start":7149.272,"end":7172.529,"text":"如果未來立法院審核通過你擔任中選委的主委我想也請你務必要保持過去一直保持的這個客觀中立勇於對執政者提出健眼的這個勇氣並持續地推動不再急投票落實憲法賦予人民的平等參政權也守護我們偏鄉民眾投票的權益謝謝博文請問董事長是不是可以來做到"},{"start":7173.469,"end":7196.17,"text":"當然 我覺得我剛剛已經講了不在即投票是世界的潮流 社會也高度關注身為一個政治學者也好 或者是一個知識分子也好我舉雙手贊成 但是我們還是要非常謹慎面對讓它循序漸進 不要追求一步到位否則會帶來很大的災難"},{"start":7197.857,"end":7215.906,"text":"對我們一起來努力啦 這可是真的 剛才剛才講的那些感受的地方我們剛才譬如要放鬆幾年那可能真的大家沒辦法 可是我也發電量所以我充分了解謝謝主委很正面的答覆 那我們一起加油那謝謝謝謝我們的備體兵人 謝謝召委 謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃建斌召委質詢我們請蘇巧"},{"start":7232.392,"end":7238.257,"text":"書面喔 好來 蘇巧惠 蘇巧惠不在 我們這裡有提名有委員抱歉 我想說我們的夢幻學生沒有看好 召委 我們議會同仁 請我們中選會被提名的人我們的主委我們的游老師 游教授"},{"start":7261.781,"end":7280.467,"text":"首先恭喜你啦被提名人但是我發早上很多人的爭議還是未來在網路上的假訊息包含不再去投票這是未來你當主委你要去推動要去承擔因為過去的九二一"},{"start":7282.681,"end":7298.868,"text":"過去的九合一上上界就是一個亂象那亂象的話你當一個主委你整個選舉的步調以及規劃都要很妥善現在整個中選會在這幾年"},{"start":7300.929,"end":7327.8,"text":"其實我們中選會我也是很肯定因為這幾年真的改變很多 國民黨的心目中真的有徹底改變但是未來不再去投票這是還要好好的去規劃還有在網路以境外的那個假訊息的問題假訊息的問題我認為主委你應該是一個學者出身應該對這個問題 你要怎麼去"},{"start":7330.519,"end":7354.725,"text":"第一時間你要怎樣去耗資怎樣去開發怎樣去下架這是未來你要做的是不是主委這一點你來做說明好不好謝謝吳委員的指教假訊息特別是在網路的時代的新奇是所有民主國家必須面對的巨大的挑戰"},{"start":7356.024,"end":7383.024,"text":"怎麼樣在假訊息衝刺之下能夠維持選務的公正性能夠讓所有的候選人還有選民都能夠獲得最好的保障這是中選會或是任何國家的選務單位必須面對的問題所以未來如果針對這個部分來說我相信中選會同仁"},{"start":7385.456,"end":7395.457,"text":"這方面經驗是非常豐富但是我們面對的是一個瞬息萬變的世界尤其是AI的時代所以"},{"start":7397.045,"end":7422.823,"text":"中選會怎麼樣能夠去面對這個問題中選會自己要有所節目但同時中選會是一個行政單位也需要立法院的強力的支持給予他 賦予他能力 賦予他資源讓他能夠應付這一個高度複雜而且充滿不確定性的年代"},{"start":7425.655,"end":7445.539,"text":"我們主委我們提名人真的你說這樣回答因為早過去中選會每次的選舉大多都是有一些網路的誤導以及境外的私立介入但是那時候很多都是反應中選會但是中選會還是沒作為"},{"start":7448.598,"end":7475.435,"text":"等到要有作為已經選舉完了這對候選人是非常的不公平所以這一點我要拜託我們未來的諸位這點一定要記著雖然是說我們要確保每一個好選人他們的反應例如說第一時間的反應我們都要立即的去處理這樣不做好選人他受到這真的是不公平啦"},{"start":7476.878,"end":7504.243,"text":"這一點 我再請教你 你說不在一起投票這一點 我聽剛才建平委員在執行你也是以我舉雙手贊成嘛那未來實施的時效是什麼時候目前中山會建議是這樣就是說從公民投票開始實施"},{"start":7506.408,"end":7531.953,"text":"從單一的全國性公民投票開始實施之後逐步地累積這方面的不在籍投票的相關的經驗降低它的弊端然後一步一步地推進到全國性的選舉包括總統 立委 甚至到地方的選舉這是需要一個過程 一段時間"},{"start":7532.933,"end":7548.591,"text":"不是立刻就去做事實上中選會也沒辦法決定我們立刻就去做中選會還是要遵循立法院制定的法律然後我們才能夠去依法行政但是中選會"},{"start":7550.252,"end":7573.561,"text":"秉持選務機關的立場也有責任和義務提供給立法院最充分的資訊這個可能面對的困難是什麼問題是什麼我們的建議是什麼我想這是中選會應該去做而且能做的好 謝謝我們當然啦我們中選會大家都期待嘛要有作為嘛"},{"start":7574.802,"end":7584.648,"text":"這是大家共同的期待以及目標吧好 謝謝 請委員那我請行政院秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":7591.687,"end":7597.131,"text":"委員長 委員長 現在全國 因為我看我們的媒體在報導我們的沙石的問題廢棄物的問題 現在是非常的嚴重所以說在這個部分 應該是我們在中央要跟地方政府來做協調"},{"start":7613.406,"end":7625.563,"text":"包含說每一管區 他們都可以說設置一個掩埋場或是你說停台北港 就是說每一個地方也不要說讓砂石運到各縣市 這樣說變成一個"},{"start":7628.696,"end":7656.747,"text":"流竄又是一個亂道的問題所以說這個博文因為現在大家都反映說都是中央規定什麼都推給中央這對我們中央非常的不公平所以我認為行政院應該找地方政府大家來設置要怎樣來處理包含我們的填海照路包含我們的港口"},{"start":7657.652,"end":7674.586,"text":"港口旁邊很多要有我們的後櫃一些大型的工業區這都可以來推動委員跟召委可以給我差不多三分鐘來報告跟說明好不好這三小時的事情可以分三方面來跟大家報告"},{"start":7675.669,"end":7701.155,"text":"GPS的部分啦 現在中央的政策是你可以用中央無關系來進步或是環境部的GPS這可以進入 第二有很多地方原本就有用GPS 無關系手機或是車機都可以進入 我們用GPS雙軌制的方式讓能夠載運沙石土方的車子能夠上路去載 這第一部分第二部分剛才委員在追尋的"},{"start":7703.575,"end":7711.761,"text":"戰智場的部分 現在中央加密集在跟地方開會在協調 中央會找從北到南八個戰智場"},{"start":7713.533,"end":7737.822,"text":"包括台北港 台中港 漳濱工業區台南有一部分那高雄這邊也有這個南興計畫的土地我們中央找八個站置場希望地方也能夠進來這個協助管理車可以走 也是有地方可以走這是第二部分第三個部分是就簡正便民的部分以前是這個"},{"start":7741.656,"end":7754.969,"text":"土方出來 要先經過土資廠再到最終處置廠但是土方有些依照法規 也是有加料現在可以從這個出廠直接到最終處理廠又或者是在台中經過分析70%的部分是可以"},{"start":7758.172,"end":7786.225,"text":"賣掉的也能夠就地來做合法的交易我們從這三個面向來做還需要一些時間中央可以跟地方做的合作公共工程也好各種私人的工程也好能夠在合乎法律的規定之下讓土方的全流向的管制穩健的上路還需要一點時間中央地方會合作政府民間也會一起合作依從委員報告"},{"start":7788.146,"end":7811.083,"text":"好 謝謝你說一些可再利用的這種的大家都不要說一味的全部都規定的實施的這樣我就去解決他們的問題不然現在很多你說每次我們都會去都在推動建設包括公共工程甚至也是土方沒有武器處這一點就是他們都來帶我們陳情所以說我今天你 秘書長你有來特別幫你提起"},{"start":7817.262,"end":7838.015,"text":"好 謝謝有什麼歡迎再麻煩委員跟行政院來講我們會繼續拍片 謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳祁銘在這裡要讓我們的秘書長說那刷牌也要刷牌更加到位 更加關心 更加了解因為這個萬事失去 真的很不好來 我們請劉淑萍委員質詢"},{"start":7849.241,"end":7858.113,"text":"好謝謝主席我現在請被提名人主委被提名的游盈隆教授游教授"},{"start":7866.1,"end":7890.239,"text":"郭教授您好您不只是政治學者你本身也曾經當過陸委會的副主委對於兩岸關係的法律體系還有國家忠誠的問題應該都有非常的了解我今天想要請教的一個制度性的矛盾就是陸籍配偶在台灣的戶籍滿了10年之後"},{"start":7891.44,"end":7918.63,"text":"依照兩岸人民關係條例呢他是可以參政的並且呢他也是經過中選會審查了具備了一個候選資格那另外呢但是我們看到是在國籍法依照20條呢他當選後呢在他的就任前或是一年之內呢必須提出放棄中國國籍的證明或是依照其他的法律規定來辦理否則就撤銷資格了那內政部長劉世芳呢他也主張可以參選但就任前"},{"start":7921.611,"end":7925.896,"text":"再用國籍法來去檢驗他的忠誠我認為有三個問題第一個是法律適用的問題兩岸人民關係條例是個特別法在跟國籍法發生衝突時是否應該優先適用呢那內政部 劉部長的說法是否已經有擴張裁量權"},{"start":7941.091,"end":7969.83,"text":"異越法律授權的這個問題那我先把問題說完那請這個被提名人游教授你就等一下再一起回應就我時間有限第二個問題就是參政公平性的問題那一個人可以參選後來當選但是最後是要高度仰賴對岸去要去出具這個文件然後才會被撤銷可是事實上這中共不會發的那是否會侵害到他的是陸配的一個憲法平等保障的這個參政權"},{"start":7971.171,"end":7998.713,"text":"那第三個就是說國家終審如何制度化這是民進黨非常重視的這個問題那終審應該的審核是在選前明確可預期的法律要求之下但是還是說他還會依據選後補件那如果拿不出來就撤銷那因此就想說如果要在最後的這個在這個相關的法律還沒有整合之前你是否認為就終選會應該主動的面對這樣一個法律衝突請劉教授回答 謝謝"},{"start":8000.996,"end":8025.23,"text":"這的確是一個非常棘手的問題對中選會來講一方面來講 站在保障參政權的立場這個中選會會樂見所有的國民的參政權都被完整的保障但是兩岸關係是高度的複雜"},{"start":8027.581,"end":8054.99,"text":"相關的法例到目前為止也沒有就這一點有非常完備清楚的立法所以在這種情況底下就留下了一個模糊的空間這個空間內政部有內政部的主張中選會在這上面幾乎沒有去主張什麼的這樣的一個立場"},{"start":8057.076,"end":8064.139,"text":"但主觀上您作為一個學者作為一個學者我覺得兩岸是一個高度複雜的問題我覺得這個目前這樣的一個問題"},{"start":8070.379,"end":8086.789,"text":"你就是侵犯他的公平參政權嗎這是好幾個價值牽扯在這裡面所以即便是在過去多年以來有國民黨執政時代有民進黨執政時代但通通沒有去根本解決這個問題所以這問題遺留下來這問題坦白講對中選會來講要交給中選會去處理這個是中選會沒這個能力"},{"start":8099.051,"end":8115.258,"text":"所以你們未來就是草獨立機關就不處理了是嗎不知道 我的意思是說那這個部分你應該是行政院這個可能秘書長要去回應那我現在問的一個問題更重要的是那特別法跟普通法的這個問題適用你應該怎麼看法呢"},{"start":8117.867,"end":8140.831,"text":"根據法律學當然我們在座有很多法律專家特別法是優於普通法所以兩岸人民關係條例但是這兩者因為兩岸關係高度的複雜牽扯著非常複雜的歷史的因果這裡面可能會衍生很多很多的問題就選務機關來講選務機關並沒有這種職權去做這個讓"},{"start":8147.829,"end":8168.575,"text":"所有的人滿意的這樣的處理我知道被提名人劉教授你就是現在在一個審查期間這個問題應該是民進黨非常care的問題的那的確也是有它的複雜性但是這個比較全國的人民包括學者專家必須好好去針對這個問題去好好去針對大家的部分要知道它的公平性"},{"start":8170.595,"end":8198.971,"text":"還有再一個問題在於說我們看到的是國內移轉投票的問題國內移轉投票涉及到的是又是一個價值非常重要的涉及到公平的平等權跟自由跟秘密投票然後也涉及到國家的信任那我剛才也聽到是主委是不是您對於一般我們民眾黨是提出來是國內移轉投票請其他的政黨就是尤其是民進黨不要去特別的去汙名化國內的移轉投票那請我想要說那個被提名的你針對"},{"start":8200.454,"end":8204.486,"text":"這國內移轉投票的話 您的態度是支持還是怎麼樣我支持啊"},{"start":8205.37,"end":8229.74,"text":"我完全同意 但是我覺得不是一步到位沒錯 沒錯 我後面繼續問下去那這個部分我知道你也在你的這個對民眾黨的回應報告當中有提到說他必須按部就班因為涉及到國家信任的問題還有安全的這個秘密投票問題那你的意思是說從先從公投開始嘛對不對包括是從到選舉的到原住民的地方到中央是嗎"},{"start":8230.68,"end":8247.722,"text":"好那重點是相關的問題包括說我們就他的一個配套措施就是說他對於秘密投票有被破壞的問題還有對選票保管跟運送的問題那就這兩點你是不是夠可能如果你當中選會的主委你有沒有什麼後續的一個配套措施規劃或是想法初步的現在"},{"start":8248.683,"end":8270.539,"text":"我還沒有上任中選會主委啦不過我已經很努力的在了解相關的狀況我覺得技術上來講應該是可以處理啦否則這個像原住民的這個部分已經有了初步的大院也已經通過了相關的法律來解決這個問題我覺得"},{"start":8275.009,"end":8284.245,"text":"這個基本上是不會有大問題所以是基本上技術性沒有大問題是不是願意要不要做行政機關這部分要不要做的問題我想要講清楚的就是說"},{"start":8285.734,"end":8304.204,"text":"如果不在籍投票立刻就要實施在2026的這一次九合一地方選舉那是幾乎所有的人包括22個這個地方的選舉委員會就是各縣市六都都岐岐以為不可"},{"start":8304.944,"end":8330.412,"text":"所以應該要分階段然後實施之後能夠獲得社會的信心社會的信賴我們再來推展到選舉上面去所以大家可以預期如果您順利當選到中選會主委的話應該會提出中選會的版本半部就版了就實施可行性去進行嗎是我希望這樣子好 謝謝那另外最後一個問題這個主席先"},{"start":8333.014,"end":8351.49,"text":"包容一下好這地方就說您在您的民眾黨的回應的報告當中我提到說呢對於中選會對公投案的審查僅限法律明定要件不涉及到價值判斷不涉及到價值判斷那就是這部分嘛那請問是說如果是針對114年"},{"start":8354.113,"end":8381.015,"text":"在有送到中選會的就立法院的一個有公投案這樣子的案提到的中選會去做審查的時候這一個時候是針對說題目是您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決的政策呢這個立法院公投案假設您當時是一個中選會的主委您對於這樣子的一個案子是否能夠成案您的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":8382.376,"end":8395.759,"text":"我觉得那一个案子对中选会来说我事后了解中选会承受了空前巨大的压力要做出一个正确的决定是非常困难的"},{"start":8396.584,"end":8426.071,"text":"但是我們也要注意到中選會不是立法院提出了前部否決中選會也同意也處理了河山研議公投是的所以有一個通過一個不通過我相信上一屆的中選會委員會有他們的相當完整的思維但是主委被提名人我是問您的看法我是問您的看法"},{"start":8426.491,"end":8452.916,"text":"我的看法對 這個議題我覺得這是一個非常困難的問題您這樣狀況是 您的初步判斷因為這涉及到的是在程序上面這部分你是指的 劉委員我再把題目說一遍 您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一次決之政策那這個部分是讓民眾去決定"},{"start":8454.907,"end":8479.603,"text":"所以他如果過程當中的程序上面並沒有違反的話應該是讓民眾去決定公投的意思就是在這樣子沒錯 我充分了解你的意思而這正好也就是觸及了或凸顯了目前台灣司法審查權跟直接民選 直接民主之間的衝突"},{"start":8481.806,"end":8509.254,"text":"所以這個問題到目前為止還社會還不是完全了解但是我覺得社會可以廣泛的去討論是不是公民投票的結果不能抵觸憲判這是一個很嚴肅的憲政的問題我覺得社會可以去討論但是上一屆的這樣的一個裁決我現在也算半個當事人我不便表達意見"},{"start":8510.151,"end":8536.947,"text":"好 這樣好 謝謝至少我覺得這個被提名的劉教授您提出出來之後您知道在現在在審查期間包括也是你過去的在民進黨的黨員後來你退黨但是你就知道說你自己有一個這個學者的價值這個風範我是覺得已經建立起來就是有一個高度肯定但我希望說您如果被立法院同意的話你就繼續的在這個位置上面就是在跳脫到政治堅守到行政中立"},{"start":8537.347,"end":8565.251,"text":"然後也重建中選 各界對於中選會的這樣一個信任因為大家都覺得中選會那個中是中於執政黨的那個中然後也落實到法定選務然後保障人民的實質參與這對你的期許這一點請委員放心好 謝謝游盈隆就是游盈隆 不會改變好 我們期待大家一起有目共睹期待OK 謝謝謝謝 感謝劉淑檳委員質詢我們王宏威委員"},{"start":8572.011,"end":8577.399,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們被提名人游教授加油教授"},{"start":8583.083,"end":8604.505,"text":"好 游教授辛苦了我們委員好可以看到今天包含就是我們整個審查會裡面包含我們國民黨的委員對游教授也有相當多的肯定那我想請問一下因為游教授過去除了是政治學教授還有民調"},{"start":8605.426,"end":8633.022,"text":"那當然對於政治也有很多評論而且你過去長期當這個政府的烏鴉執政黨的烏鴉那譬如說在去年的大罷免的時候你有很多的評論你的評論是大罷免是台灣民主之恥而且你曾經痛批有兩大戰犯死不認錯就是包含民進黨黨團的柯建民總召還有沈伯陽委員"},{"start":8634.443,"end":8657.7,"text":"那你有提到就是大罷免是災難性的民主內戰那當然其實你的評論也不止於此所以你這一次在被提名的時候外界其實有很多人是驚訝的那甚至有一種說法是說你可能可以得到在野黨委員的票數但是民進黨內部很多人對你有意見"},{"start":8658.661,"end":8681.129,"text":"所以您認為在這一次的整個的提名的表決過程裡面你目前評估你可以得到民進黨全數的票數同意你嗎這部分我不敢去評估不敢評估 所以有可能會有人跑票"},{"start":8682.009,"end":8699.439,"text":"我不知道好 那另外請教一下因為我剛剛特別提到了一些大罷免在這個過程裡面很多人就開始談到一些我們法律跟一些制度上的問題在之前我們通過了就是在聯署要付身分證 銀本"},{"start":8700.885,"end":8716.759,"text":"民進黨政府有來提出復議但是呢並沒有拿去釋憲所以這個應該已經是可以確定的這個行政院也沒有拿去釋憲然後我想請問一下我們還有一個版本就是呢"},{"start":8717.299,"end":8738.212,"text":"加一版本就是你的被罷免票數要多過就是被罷免要多過你之前之前的當選的票數才能夠確定被罷免那我不曉得游教授你對於這一個的修法版本你個人的意見是什麼 你同意嗎謝謝委員 我的看法是這樣第一個"},{"start":8748.14,"end":8762.371,"text":"家父身份證這個是加嚴罷免權的刑事坦白講在某個程度上我是贊成的因為全世界各國國會議員是沒有什麼國會議員罷免制度的"},{"start":8767.813,"end":8786.053,"text":"沒錯啊所以就這個部分來講我純粹基於學者的立場我是覺得加嚴我是可以同意的那第二個就立委提罷免同意票需高於當選票我覺得這兩個不能夠相"},{"start":8787.722,"end":8797.087,"text":"不能夠不能相提並論對 不能相提並論所以你對於加1的版本你個人有疑慮"},{"start":8798.26,"end":8824.273,"text":"我覺得那個不合理好 你覺得不合理好 因為我們今天是審查必須把一些就是我們現在修法的過程要就教於你另外我看到你回答就是我們立法院各黨團的就是有關於罷免的部分我們在罷免的過程裡面有很多的不合理其中有關於是政治獻金因為我們自己是身為被罷免人"},{"start":8824.833,"end":8850.707,"text":"那因為我們是被監督的對象但是相對在政治獻金上就出現了一個極不平衡的狀態如果在選舉裡面不管是多少人參選每一個人都是受到政治獻金法的一個規範但是我們在這一次被罷免裡面其實整個的政治獻金是非常非常混亂的"},{"start":8852.729,"end":8873.566,"text":"我看到你的回答是說你也認為即便是罷免者包括領銜人也好或罷免團體他的政治獻金也應該受到一定的管理和規範所以我想請問你這個部分你要不要再講一下就是有關於政治獻金的規範你個人的看法是怎麼樣政治制度是嚴禁的"},{"start":8878.448,"end":8893.165,"text":"不是從一開始就完美無缺所以經過不斷的實踐實驗之後該修的是應該要修我個人的意見是被罷免"},{"start":8894.775,"end":8918.224,"text":"的人要受到政治獻金法的限制但是提罷免的人目前沒有任何的這方面的沒有任何規範所以我覺得未來是可以考慮修法雖然政治獻金法的主管機關並不是中選會但是這涉及了選務選舉跟罷免的公平性"},{"start":8918.924,"end":8942.193,"text":"的確 因為這樣所以我才表示意見好 所以你也認為這個應該修好 另外一個在這次罷免裡面有一個完全回憶於過去的做法這次中選會也被我們認為是極為不中立而且有政治辦案之嫌就是有關於在聯署告發聯署 錯假聯署的時間"},{"start":8946.114,"end":8957.197,"text":"過去事實上去年大罷免並不是第一次也不會是最後一次但是中選會過去歷次針對有關於罷免的錯假連署每一個包含韓國瑜 王浩宇 陳柏惟 黃婕 所有的"},{"start":8966.599,"end":8992.605,"text":"都是在投票之後然後去做告發每一個都是在投票之後去做告發唯有一次例外唯有一次例外就是在去年的大罷免大家可以看到去年大罷免整個去告發錯假連署然後去偵辦錯假連署大概都是史上這個最為激烈的一次那這中間就是跟中選會的告發時間有關"},{"start":8995.686,"end":9011.218,"text":"那到底這個告發時間應該是在聯署期間呢或者是在投票之後不要去影響最後的罷免結果其實應該要有一套制度的但是中選會當時就是完全違反過去的做法當然就被我們認為說這個是有政治辦案的嫌疑所以這個就是中選會的業務了"},{"start":9022.526,"end":9046.744,"text":"所以我想請問 我們主委被提名人如果你擔任主委 針對未來夾是有這個連署 錯假連署其實這個連署還不只是罷免 還有選舉也會有這個你是不是應該建立一套 一個可長可久的制度而不是隨著不同的情境而改變"},{"start":9049.793,"end":9066.523,"text":"對我來講這個時候要回答這個問題的確是困難的怎麼會困難我還是要回答這個問題這個一點都不困難吧我還是回答這個問題我自己也參選過所以我也知道其實選舉期間為了避免影響選舉"},{"start":9068.467,"end":9097.258,"text":"即便有嫌疑人涉嫌犯罪检调司法单位也都是事后侦办事前也有一些但是基本上不会这么做所以我不了解大坝棉去年实际的状况他们是怎么样做成决定我不了解那是一页沧桑史我觉得事后可以再去检讨改进"},{"start":9098.116,"end":9109.05,"text":"我特別指出這個這個其實完全是技術性的竊選完全是技術竊選有非常多種因為我時間到了不耽誤下面時間謝謝謝謝我們感謝王宏威委員資訊我們現在習新穎委員"},{"start":9124.636,"end":9129.988,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請這個主委被提名人請阿佑教授"},{"start":9137.951,"end":9155.406,"text":"这个我们游教授好那本席想请教您这个您应该知道现在AI时代的来临那AI的身为技术也已经成为全球民主的威胁了"},{"start":9156.207,"end":9183.176,"text":"那您被提名为这个中选会的主委所以今天本席的质询要为我们的民主宪政找到疫苗那我们台湾民主的选举绝对不能被破坏也不能被不信任台湾的民主如果被破坏那就不战而亡这点您认同吧完全赞同对 所以近年来AI深维技术您"},{"start":9184.617,"end":9203.694,"text":"這個是不是有所觀察或者是您的了解是如何現在全球民主都受到AI身為技術的威脅很多國家都發生過類似的案例您有沒有一些體會或觀察的心得當然有我覺得"},{"start":9204.875,"end":9218.896,"text":"AIA所帶來的新的時代假訊息的衝刺氾濫這是所有的民主國家必須要去面對的而且是一個挑戰也可能是一個噩夢但是應該要嚴正以待"},{"start":9221.007,"end":9237.232,"text":"对 那现在我们的选罢法的机制大部分是事后追究责任那没有办法挡住选前特别选前24小时 48小时的这种假讯息的洪水"},{"start":9238.012,"end":9267.01,"text":"针对这一块本系想请教您是否支持您如果就任中选会主委之后能够主动推动这个选罢法的修订应该要纳入一些预防性的条款例如强制要求一些平台他一定要标记标记我这个平台展现出来的影片或是照片图像他是AI生成的内容而且"},{"start":9267.91,"end":9295.658,"text":"也要賦予中選會針對經過鑑識是身為的影音或是圖像呢有權下令做緊急處置針對這一塊您的看法是我的看法是這樣中選會只是一個不到60個人的一個單位長期以來這個努力於顯霧的行政那對於這一個"},{"start":9298.639,"end":9315.652,"text":"當前這麼巨大的一個時代的巨變所衍生的這些問題恐怕不是中選會單獨可以承擔的當然…所以我本席第一個主要的是說你如果擔任主委你是不是你可以推動一些修法"},{"start":9316.472,"end":9339.066,"text":"有法依據法令那相關單位就可以來進行那你中選會是很重要辦選務必須要公平公正甚至你要讓整個的選舉過程合乎民主程序所以您是否會主動推動選罷法的修訂納入針對現在AI身為的一些預防性條款"},{"start":9339.85,"end":9354.423,"text":"我覺得這是義不容辭會嘛 對應該這麼做但是必須要建立在這個非常好的扎實的研究的基礎上面然後才能夠提出來"},{"start":9356.885,"end":9382.496,"text":"當然 但是現在很多實務上非常的需要剛剛您也已經有稍微提到就是說整個的修法如果只靠中選會可能會遇到相關部會互踢皮球我想您大概也有預期所以本席也想請教您上任之後如何確保您跟NCC速發部的一些實質的合作"},{"start":9384.439,"end":9411.067,"text":"我們主觀上當然是願意的就是很多事情事實上就是跨部會必須要去共同面對的那是否願意發起跨部會的這種專案小組那來制定一套可操作的這個預防機制而不能讓我們整個民主選舉民主制度的這個防護網呢最後被破壞在中選會的職權範圍內"},{"start":9413.283,"end":9428.344,"text":"該怎麼做就怎麼做而且要全力去做好 這個大原則方向很好那現在就是說您如果就任後整個的修法如果來不及可是"},{"start":9430.015,"end":9457.33,"text":"馬上選舉就到了這個AI的假訊息爆發怎麼辦那中選會會不會有一些行政備案譬如說透過行政命令要求平台在選舉期間加強審核以及跟事實查核中心進行24小時的熱線等等這些問題我猜您大概還沒想過據我知道這個中選會這方面已經有一套做法"},{"start":9458.371,"end":9466.908,"text":"就是说上次我们才质询我们的召委王召委也很认同的我不知道中选会送来了没"},{"start":9468.726,"end":9487.695,"text":"我不曉得中選會送來沒有我現在是被提名人對 沒關係那您就表達您的立場我覺得就這個部分來講所謂身為的這些照片這些影響它是直接影響到選民跟候選人所以"},{"start":9488.976,"end":9505.921,"text":"中選會能夠做的大概是怎麼樣在第一時間降低它的傷害而不是根本上解決這個假訊息的問題中選會要主動積極建立這個綠色通道讓這整個能夠不受影響因為那樣的一個問題的存在是"},{"start":9506.821,"end":9535.966,"text":"跨政黨的噩夢不是只有哪一個特定政黨對 我們不是為特定政黨這個選舉的公平公正很重要那主委 所以這個AI的偽造像洪水猛獸我們希望預防勝於治療那中選會一定要主動修法不然我們的民主會淪為科技戰場的犧牲品這一塊我們希望如果您能夠順利擔任主委的話這個部分一定要落實而且堅持住好不好"},{"start":9536.246,"end":9547.357,"text":"我們嚴正以待 嚴肅以待謝謝謝謝我們感謝習慶雲委員執行我們家葉研資委員麻煩請那個游教授游教授"},{"start":9566.704,"end":9590.549,"text":"右岩好右教授好 這樣跟右教授請教一下在我們選罷法裡面有規定如果要罷免的話要一年之後才能夠進行那你覺得當初選罷法會這樣子規定的原因是什麼為什麼不是立刻選完之後就可以搞罷免一定要一年後我猜想立法者大概也意識到不要讓當選完之後立刻面臨"},{"start":9592.193,"end":9611.123,"text":"當選人被罷免的情境不要說這個讓人家輸不起就搞罷免應該是這樣吧總是要讓人家做個一年看看做得好不好再決定要不要罷免但是在這個李靖勇前主委在這邊我也問過他一樣的問題他說沒有不可以"},{"start":9611.992,"end":9633.778,"text":"現在的法律是沒有不可以換句話說如果我選上了輸給我的人輸不起他可能覺得說在選舉過程當中有什麼失誤或他覺得他想要再拚翻盤的機會他在敗選的隔天他跟他的團隊就可以來搞罷免這個是我們現在法律規定就是這樣嗎您的看法"},{"start":9635.23,"end":9659.813,"text":"我看怎麼詮釋啦我覺得選舉結束之後如果有國民不滿選舉結果不滿當選人所以他會對他講出很多負面的話說要罷免等等等等那是屬於言論自由的範圍言論自由當然都尊重但是如果是由敗選的那一方或其政黨"},{"start":9660.794,"end":9681.628,"text":"在背後煽動發起的你覺得這有符合民主的常態嗎因為以目前的法律的規定事實上也是一年之後才能夠禁止罷免像中選會才能夠可是問題是輸的人他可以在輸的隔天就開始規劃 煽動然後搞大罷免"},{"start":9682.228,"end":9709.986,"text":"我們去年看到的狀況就是這樣雖然民進黨嘴巴不講是他們發動的但柯建民總召就很誠實嘛他在接受媒體訪問的時候就說在投票的隔天還是隔兩天就去找過賴總統啊這在他媒體訪問公開講的啊怎麼透過罷免去扭轉國會的席次嘛在我們那一區包括我們國民黨很多立委的選區都一樣啊發動罷免推動罷免最用力的就是輸的那一方嘛我那一區就是這樣啊"},{"start":9710.831,"end":9729.608,"text":"他的我在那個罷免說明會我有公開資料啊他輸給我的那個立委的服務處主任沒多久就成立了一個就加入一個這個罷免的社團在推動然後不然就是想要取而代之的民進黨的人主要在推動嘛那這是民主常態嗎你覺得是嗎"},{"start":9730.928,"end":9744.354,"text":"當然不是 這是政治問題啦對啊 那問題是法律規範不嚴謹或中選會的按住就會造成這樣反民主的狀況出現嘛所以如果說您當主委當然中選會是辦選務的機關但您也是洞見觀瞻啊"},{"start":9749.556,"end":9777.248,"text":"如果是您的話您覺得要怎麼去結合您的未來的職務讓這種反民主的狀況繼續發生我們只能夠依法行政就中選會的角度來講但是以我作為一個政治學者的角度來講我長期以來反對在國會議員的層次立委來存在一個罷免制度因為全世界先進民主國家沒有哪一個國家的國會議員"},{"start":9779.502,"end":9805.255,"text":"美國的聯邦參議員 眾議員當選之後面臨被罷免沒有的 制度上就不存在這種可能性但是台灣也許這個就是說在孫中山先生的思想底下然後去制定的選舉罷免創制復建那個那個是這樣子因為我們國家不可能沒有罷免因為走到這一步不可能沒有罷免但是"},{"start":9805.935,"end":9830.98,"text":"應該是怎麼去完善罷免的制度比如說現在因為罷免的門檻比較低它只要兩成五所以就會讓選輸的人覺得有機可乘怎麼透過大罷免去扭轉剛剛產生的民意這就是我覺得制度造成的漏洞但是大罷免結果其實對社會非常傷害像我們那一區就出現非常多的對立包括家庭"},{"start":9832.558,"end":9858.648,"text":"長輩跟子女之間也因為立場不一樣罷免的仇恨的煽動彼此不和甚至有女兒離開家庭都有我覺得這個是當初發動大罷免的人他可能沒有顧慮到那麼多但這絕對不會只是政治的問題這是整個社會的問題它會影響到整個社會因為我覺得這個事情是非常嚴重沒有正當性的罷免那時候罷免我的被推出來的領先人用了一個理由"},{"start":9859.699,"end":9868.583,"text":"2023年葉元之怎麼樣怎麼樣所以要罷免葉元之我2024才做立委就是說因為剛選完就要搞罷免他也找不出什麼理由他就是這樣隨便亂講這個就是罷免制度的漏洞"},{"start":9872.186,"end":9889.531,"text":"我們對未來的主委或是現在的游教授充滿了期待覺得到時候如果在一些法令的解釋 詮釋甚至改革上面希望說您可以更積極的去讓我們的台灣更民主 更健全我一定會這麼做好 謝謝"},{"start":9899.305,"end":9920.845,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝葉延之委員質詢在這被提名人游一龍先生之說明跟答詢已經結束了被提名人游一龍先生可以先離席"},{"start":9922.298,"end":9931.549,"text":"我們休息十分鐘繼續我們再來請胡博遠先生來審查謝謝大家大家辛苦了"},{"start":10558.82,"end":10567.602,"text":"我們現在繼續進行比提名人胡柏諺先生跟說明跟詢問請中選委員比提名人並為副主任委員胡柏諺先生說明謝謝"},{"start":10591.648,"end":10612.745,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位委員我是胡博焱很榮幸有這個機會受行政院的信任而被提名擔任這樣的職務的工作那我也希望這個是一個這幾年來我們都看到台灣其實不只是在立法院在每個地方政治的抗爭性都非常大我想"},{"start":10613.726,"end":10632.553,"text":"政治不是只有抗爭也有很多討論跟協調這件事情而我們其實這個委員會呢目前的七位提名人基本上來講來自各個不同的黨派其實以目前的地方選委會的態勢是一樣的那說實在的相比"},{"start":10633.086,"end":10659.767,"text":"我們內政委員會可能處理的像內政部的事情或是其他部會中選會是一個行政動能很小那嚴格來講處理的事情也比較單純但是雖然它是單純的但是這件事情其實處理不好就會動搖國本的這事情那但是呢中選會其實剛剛主委提名有提過說我們其實原而編制也不過才60個人就像地方選舉委員會也不過才200多個人"},{"start":10661.266,"end":10686.326,"text":"所以呢我們雖然有七個提名人但是大概只有主委跟副主委需要兩個值日生來負責擦黑板倒水的這樣的工作這個就由游老師跟我來擔任但是重要的是這七個人其實在未來在決定事情上面以及現在的四位委員在未來決定事情上面來講在這個委員會當中而言每個人的決定的份量是一樣的而且這也是體現這一個國家在處理選舉事務當中而言"},{"start":10690.209,"end":10701.315,"text":"各黨各派在處理事務當中都有應該要發言的地位而我們希望藉由這一次的審查可以讓我們國家可以走得更順利謝謝謝謝我們這裡電視台有他的詢問詢問質詢"},{"start":10721.006,"end":10743.355,"text":"謝謝主席我們請被提名人胡伯彥教授胡伯彥教授被提名人好我想剛剛你有說明就是這一次的話基本上是由各黨派來推薦也是我們進入到立法院將近兩年來第一次的人事審查"},{"start":10743.823,"end":10772.266,"text":"是由各黨派來推薦我們當然也希望說能夠有這樣一個好的結果那當然今天有幾個題目要就教於您那首先是在我們提問的一個問題當中針對中選會是否有權審查立法院的公投提案那您的書面回答得非常清楚就是依公投法第15條第二項立法院交付案件排除人民提案審核的程序"},{"start":10772.748,"end":10797.939,"text":"就法律解釋上應該沒有審查的適用你甚至說立法院交付本為政治決定在邏輯上不該由中選會進行合法的審查所以我在這邊請您先把你的立場講清楚你的意思是不是只要立法院三讀通過交付到中選會這樣的公投案其實中選會的角色就是依法辦理呢"},{"start":10798.618,"end":10814.724,"text":"我認為一件事情就是就這個法律條文解釋邏輯上面來講因為他排除了第九條到第十三條的適用所以在這個時候如果中選會審查必須要回到一件事情上面來講就像以前所講的就是請你間斷回答是不是一個政策是不是因為在您的報告裡面在這個選擇上面來講就會是如何而且不是只有這個條文因為我們還有防衛性公投"},{"start":10824.287,"end":10844.933,"text":"的問題就是如果這是您的回答嗎所以是不是就是應該遇到這個有立法院三路通過交付中選會的這樣的一個公投案中選會的角色就是依法辦理對是好那所以不能再用什麼非重大決策或是合法性把它擋下來是嗎"},{"start":10845.643,"end":10864.302,"text":"我認為這個問題的憲政問題應該是要由大法官來去解決那接下來也是我要請教您的就是您認為如果真的有憲政問題的話那您覺得中選會雖然是獨立行政的一個機關但認為行政權的一部分並非憲政機關所以憲政上的爭議"},{"start":10865.458,"end":10889.782,"text":"依照憲法應該交由大法官來處理這是您的回覆所以針對這個部分中選會它不是憲政的機關所以中選會如果過度介入只會讓選務複雜這也是您在回覆中提到的所以我要問得更直接一點就是中選會直接駁回公投案是不是嚴重的越權呢也僭越了大法官的職權"},{"start":10891.038,"end":10913.725,"text":"我其實在之前的研究報告有提出來一件事情是說中選會如果直接把人家駁回的話應該在法條裡面規範讓他立即可以去申請大官釋憲由大法官去解決所以中選會不可以駁回嗎我認為如果從我剛剛的研究報告立場上面來講從這個立場其實是可以讓他駁回但是後面接續的就是馬上"},{"start":10915.005,"end":10925.948,"text":"那個憲法解釋的問題可是中選會沒有權利嘛沒有權利駁回我們的公投案嘛如果照你剛剛的論點的話我們應該就是要辦理嘛那如果認為有問題的話再送交這個把憲政機關請申請釋憲的問題嘛對 所以這個部分的話就是好那其他機關是不是有辦法權利解釋違憲的問題"},{"start":10939.352,"end":10964.214,"text":"其他機關對行政機關可不可以解釋違憲的問題實際上來講每個行政機關基本上來講都是在依據憲法來做成決定對所以說好但是呢最終而言決定有沒有違憲的問題的時候就要變成是大法官對那所以說針對這個軍人加薪跟提高警校人員所得替代率的法律是否違憲其實應該不是行政院長說了算吧"},{"start":10965.034,"end":10983.286,"text":"應該是要申請這個大法官釋憲由大法官來決定那在還沒有宣判違憲之前是不是就是合乎憲法在您這個法律學者的這樣子一個我覺得這個憲政爭議而言應該要交由大法官來處理但是因為行政院認為他是違憲的違憲之前就是合乎憲法嗎"},{"start":10984.066,"end":11000.448,"text":"行政院認為它是違憲就像定出來的某些制度內立法院也有可能認為它是違憲的在你是法律學者的這樣子的一個立場你是不是針對這個部分就是只要還沒辦違憲之前就是合乎憲法只要還沒辦還沒有判違憲之前是不是就合乎憲法"},{"start":11001.277,"end":11007.305,"text":"跟委員報告就是每個行政機關他可能會認為他這個法條是違憲的所以最終他可能會去申請實現的去做主意的因為你在國會改革的審議階段你多次的公開批評在野黨的修法是違憲擴權可是當這個中選會駁回我們的公投的時候"},{"start":11019.58,"end":11043.856,"text":"你卻沉默了你卻沒有站出來講說這個部分依法的話是應該不該駁回應該要依法宣證所以我覺得站在這個立場的話我覺得被提名人你好像就是只有在監督在野黨不監督執政黨敢宣出來的就是表現了一個這個好像是側翼的行為而且你的書面也回答了就是中選會是違法但是你的沉默卻證明了你也不敢得罪民進黨所以當有這樣的一個狀況的時候"},{"start":11045.936,"end":11052.514,"text":"我們要 你要如何說服我們這些被審 這個審查委員你未來能夠超然獨立的行使你的職權"},{"start":11053.615,"end":11080.988,"text":"我在2015年的時候我就說我要跟蔡英文劃清界限了這件事情其實報紙都有報導過這次的審查我想你要說服的是這一次被審查的委員他們的想法那另外一點呢就是我們在第一題就有提到的就是有關公投綁大選如何順利的進行那您的回答是說只要把場地租大一點分流做好工作人員增加然後提高行政效率"},{"start":11081.928,"end":11107.307,"text":"亂象 107年的亂象就不會重演這是您這是您回覆的是嗎那你這樣是不是就在說明了就民進黨這幾年說公投這個107年的公投綁大選選務亂是因為這個因為公投綁大選的關係所以你現在就是在證明說當時民進黨這幾年的說法純粹就是為了政治算計而做這樣子的說謊的一個行為嗎"},{"start":11108.928,"end":11132.542,"text":"107年確實當初2018年確實公投榜大選的那一天大選日的混亂狀況這個大家都看得出來是因為選務沒有規劃好嗎所以你才會提出來說接下來你就可以把選務怎麼規劃好所以你剛回答是這樣嗎但是那一天確實就是有十個十個公投案那就是因為表示你的人力還不夠嗎你分流沒有做好嗎這是你在回答中"},{"start":11132.922,"end":11145.873,"text":"可以解決的問題的方式所以說我們這邊是不是也就代表說以前上一次的2018年的公投中選會沒有辦好是因為人的問題是因為人無能而不是因為並大選"},{"start":11148.075,"end":11171.043,"text":"所以你在回答問題我覺得在2018年確實選務工作做得不完善所以說是因為這樣所以這幾年民進黨一直在講說公投綁大選造成選務的混亂其實不是因為公投綁大選事實上是真正能夠展現民意真正讓每個民眾能夠有機會去表達他自己的意志的時間所以我想您在這個整個回覆中也已經"},{"start":11172.271,"end":11200.933,"text":"已經這樣子充分的回答了說您針對公投綁大選覺得這個選務的部分其實的亂象不是因為綁大選而是因為行政座有沒有做好嗎是這樣嗎因為其他國家有些國家確實是沒有綁大選那我認為說如果真的要綁大選我們就必須要把選務工作處理做正因為在你問題的一些言論跟立場事實上你是反對公投綁大選的那當然今天我在研究報告是寫我支持"},{"start":11201.873,"end":11218.841,"text":"對 你在你的 但是你看喔你在這個自由時報的這個對 專欄裡面我寫你是這個空頭綁大選只會毀了公投本質喔這是你以前的說法 對那我們希望說不要因為今天是未來來擔任副主委所以你就改變你過去的說法到底我們要相信哪一個你"},{"start":11219.241,"end":11237.435,"text":"是同意公投綁大選的你還是反對公投綁大選委員因為我們現在法條已經改了我們未來就是要因應一件事情就是要綁大選我們要預防的一件事情就是2018年的那個狀況出現希望您不要是因為為了要擔任這個副主委這個職務而去出賣您原來的一個這個"},{"start":11238.796,"end":11250.606,"text":"自己的一個學術的一個良知還是希望您能夠如果未來您有幸能夠擔任副主委的話一定要秉持公正 超然獨立的立場來行使職權謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝徐益臻委員質詢我們現在有時間要委員質詢"},{"start":11272.05,"end":11299.547,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們被提名人副主委被提名人胡老師胡教授教授首先我想要先分享喔有一個就是被歐巴馬總統任命的第一位女性的這個司法部長哈佛的第一位的女性院長叫做Elena Kagan2010年歐巴馬提名她那這位美國的女性大法官他有一句名言"},{"start":11300.339,"end":11321.068,"text":"我觉得想要分享给大家也许胡教授您也非常的了解这句名言呢他说my politics would be must be have to becompletely separatefrom my judgment意思是我有我个人的政治意识的形态我有我个人的政治"},{"start":11321.795,"end":11342.64,"text":"形象或是我的政治主張但是這跟我的判決是完全兩碼子事他是完全會抽離的當他成為大法官的那一天他勢必要專業的去判準他的每一個判決而且依據憲法所以他的politics每個人有自己的politics"},{"start":11343.18,"end":11361.605,"text":"我有您有每一個委員都有但是當大家被提名成為中選會的委員未來渴望上任的時候請切記超越黨派超越個人的政治意識形態首先合法是必要的我相信胡教授非常同意這位Elena Kagan她的主張"},{"start":11362.375,"end":11391.324,"text":"其实也是物资要我个人的主张所以说下一页我刚刚在垂询这个主委被提名人游云龙先生的时候我也提到成功选务的三要素就是公正效率跟便民而中选会委员的四要件独立专业公正跟守线守法守线守法非常的重要唯有回到守线守法的基准我们才能够超越自己的politics"},{"start":11391.804,"end":11415.299,"text":"自己的政治意識的型態您同意嗎同意那麼在首先守法的這個範圍裡頭我對於剛剛因為時間有限游盈隆被提名人主委的被提名人他一直長期在論述的他個人認為這個罷免是災難的這件事情我尊重他的言論自由但是如果今天"},{"start":11416.658,"end":11443.921,"text":"成為中選會未來要獨立行使職權而且是首先守法的主委的時候回歸憲法的精神就非常重要憲法第17條所規範的人民有選舉罷免創制復決之權這是中華民國的憲法所以人民依據憲法所提出的罷免我希望過去的游盈隆學者跟未來的游盈隆主委"},{"start":11444.406,"end":11452.882,"text":"他的主張勢必要首先合法要脫離他個人的politics那您怎麼看這個命題呢您怎麼看待人民發起的大罷免"},{"start":11453.547,"end":11481.209,"text":"包委員我這個意見其實跟委員一樣但是我不要我其實某些方面也是認為說罷免制度其實在很多國家現在目前其實是被檢討的但是我們確實在憲法17條就寫著我們有罷免的權利這個是我們沒有辦法去否定的一件事情因為它寫在憲法裡面人民委員會跑來跟你講說我就可以罷免誰所以說首先守法很重要"},{"start":11482.757,"end":11511.603,"text":"個人作為學者的身份可以有自己的政治主張但一旦被提名成為國家的中選會的委員的時候首先手法就是重要的基準請尊重人民依據憲法所發動的基本公民權而我更要說大罷免是人民發動的而大惡罷才是國民黨發動的吳斯堯我本人就是受害者就是當事人我到現在還是中華民國史上被罷免者"},{"start":11512.093,"end":11531.774,"text":"的最高被偽造連署的份數2674份這份記錄負面的記錄還標記在我身上我非常的遺憾這是被發動大惡霸一方用違法的方式來僭越了來踐踏了憲法珍貴的人民父權我要在這裡提出"},{"start":11532.702,"end":11544.919,"text":"下一頁剛剛提到不再急投票我也都說即便要變名也要讓公正選舉跟選舉的效率不打折所以大家都有共識公投先行下一頁"},{"start":11546.007,"end":11572.514,"text":"各縣市政府有這樣的共識選務機關有這樣的共識所以請支持行政院的版本下一頁那回到這一頁就是說公投綁大選2018年的選務混亂只有2成8的人民同意而高達6成9的人民不滿意這就告訴我們公投綁大選需要有很好的機制配套未來好現在立法院修法通過"},{"start":11573.334,"end":11596.12,"text":"未來可能公投綁大選會再上路但是選務機關的責任就是維持它的運行不會混亂不會造成人民在選舉投票行使的不便利性那我就要問來下一頁您個人確實有主張但是我認為這個論述還是要再精確一點"},{"start":11597.202,"end":11611.739,"text":"依據公投法第10條中選會就主管機關對於不管人民發動的罷免對不起人民發動的公投或者是立法院發動的公投你還是必須去去審核他是不是符合法律跟憲法的規範對不對"},{"start":11613.137,"end":11636.784,"text":"我是認為他還是要有初步的審核那如果有問題就直接讓他去憲法法庭去做但是現在謝謝你提供未來立法院可能在修法的一個方向但目前並沒有您所說的這個條文就是說如果在中選會在認定在審核上的判準有所異議應當由憲法法庭來做最終的審議這是"},{"start":11638.504,"end":11654.279,"text":"未來法律所沒有的而這可能也會衍生另外的問題因為憲法法庭在審議釋憲的過程還有一定的程序那人民所發動他的對於部分的主張或是立法院的公投案本身也許在時程上沒有辦法等"},{"start":11655.34,"end":11682.896,"text":"這也會有其他衍生的問題但回到現在的法律的規範如果公投綁大選要讓他能夠不至於造成選務的混亂就是我們必須精確的讓合法首先的公投案才能上路不是嗎某些方面是否則從107年到115年我調閱了中選會的資料人民發動的公投案有69案您知道中選會駁回多少案嗎"},{"start":11683.872,"end":11711.259,"text":"不知道35案成立的34案換言之有一半的比例中選會的這個把關還是需要的因為他需要在首先合法的規範公投法第二條就規範了全國性公投跟地方性公投都有適用的要件而且他要符合憲法規定所以在人民發動的公投案裡頭從107年到15年有一半以上經過中選會的把關"},{"start":11713.479,"end":11724.585,"text":"有一半成立一半駁回這會避免了過多的公投你沒有去審核他是不是合法合憲你也必須去把關否則公投綁大選天啊2018年那種噩夢幾十案又來了同樣的立法院的公投案"},{"start":11732.748,"end":11745.422,"text":"立法院的公投案也是要守憲合法所以就像我說的用公投法的修正來推翻憲法的解釋是可以的嗎是可以的嗎"},{"start":11745.953,"end":11767.069,"text":"我覺得這個會觸犯到法治國原則的要求所以我是建議我非常理解您在法律上的一些理解但我認為發言要非常的嚴謹我也希望社會不要錯誤的解讀副主委您認為未來委員針對公投法是否合法合憲合規完全沒有審核把關的權利這非常危險"},{"start":11769.651,"end":11796.629,"text":"你在審核的不是政治的意識形態而是它有沒有符合國家公投的制度的法律的授權跟憲法的授權 您同意嗎同意我給您再最後一次去更正調整您的說法好嗎對於未來如果您當選通過立法院的同意權針對人民發動的公投案跟立法院所發動的公投案您認為中選會獨立機關要進行什麼樣子的把關我認為的把關都是屬於最低限度的把關"},{"start":11797.949,"end":11825.206,"text":"最低限度的不要過分的去干涉我們整個議案裡面內容避免中選會過度的逾越這件事情但是我想最低的限度的要求其實應該是可以達成的守法守憲這就是我們共同的底線好嗎依法行使職權我提醒所有的被提名人沒有政治意識形態而是依法守憲做我們該做的事情這樣你就能夠有很強的底氣不受政治所威脅"},{"start":11826.021,"end":11828.103,"text":"好嗎我們一起加油謝謝胡教授謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳斯亞委員質詢我們現在稱召之委員"},{"start":11847.268,"end":11872.119,"text":"多謝主席有請副主委被提名人 胡教授胡教授 雖然有委員有提到但是我對於您曾經投書媒體認為這個公學綁大頭會讓這個公投認為政黨這個對決的工具那甚至就是喪失了這個公投的這個本質這件事我還是要再請教你請問您現在對於公投綁大選還是這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":11872.719,"end":11881.28,"text":"我會認為如果可以的話讓它其實是不同天其實是一個可以的決定的選擇但是我們現在是要面對的問題是"},{"start":11882.594,"end":11902.115,"text":"法條已經修過了他就是要同天投票但是胡教授我了解你認為公投綁大選可能會讓政黨來主導這個公投議題造成公投失焦可是我的想法剛好跟你相反公投基本上這個公投綁大選基本上是強迫政黨或政治人物他必須他不能迴避他必須針對這個議題去做他的主張或是表態"},{"start":11905.518,"end":11928.325,"text":"那就是說讓選民也能夠有機會知道這個參選人他對於這個議題的想法跟態度根據這個議題他來做出他的選舉的決定換句話說您擔心的是這個公投會影響這個政黨會影響公投可是我的看法剛好是相反的我認為是人民做主的公投"},{"start":11929.125,"end":11936.997,"text":"反而會去影響這個政黨因為我相信台灣選民的數字是越來越高啊他們不見得是根據顏色去投票他們會根據議題看議題然後就來做這個選擇胡教授您贊同我的說法嗎我贊同"},{"start":11944.249,"end":11958.475,"text":"那過去的經驗就是我想你也非常清楚這個單獨舉行的公投他的投票率非常低資訊流通是有限的那結果往往被高度動員反而有可能讓政黨更容易去去做主導"},{"start":11959.936,"end":11979.407,"text":"綁大選你至少可以讓參與率是提高的參與率是提高讓公投的結果更能夠去反映整體選民的整體意志那您剛剛也一再提到修法已經通過了那我認為今年年底的地方選舉很可能很可能就是同時會舉辦公投那我要請問"},{"start":11980.627,"end":12000.643,"text":"這個胡教授因為您過去是反對的當然你現在要尊重這個法律已經通過的事實可是您能夠如實的去執行立法院通過的修法嗎你怎麼樣說服立法院還有台灣人民說你會按照這個修法你會公正如實的去把選務辦好你怎麼來說服"},{"start":12001.263,"end":12026.246,"text":"包委員我們在2018年因為公投綁大選的混亂之後因為當天有10個公投案確實造成一些混亂其實中選會在這邊其實針對整體的選務有做過改革所以在分流制度上面來講其實是已經達成了所以只要公投的案件數不會太多的話我相信其實當天可以秩序其實是可以被掌控的"},{"start":12028.647,"end":12046.276,"text":"我們是擔心說您會不會如實我會如實去辦好這件事情你的主張 我也同意你個人的主張跟這個作為有時候是可以分開的但是你的責任就是要遵守你的責任我想請教你對不在籍投票的看法民眾黨所提的不在籍投票其實是限於台灣島內 國內"},{"start":12048.697,"end":12067.288,"text":"這個移轉投票我們希望讓這個事實上你過去參與的時代力量目前還是也是這樣主張的請問胡教授您現在是支持國內移轉投票嗎我支持國內移轉投票你支持移轉投票這樣我們可以幫助就業就學的因素而不用這個周遮勞頓回到這個戶籍地來投票那但是"},{"start":12071.57,"end":12099.509,"text":"目前不再去投票是多數國家的一個做法連這個中南亞國家包括印尼菲律賓他們都做了那你知道前年印尼大選我們台灣的警察出來幫助幫助這個這個秩序的維安所以這個是我是覺得很丟臉我們可以幫助別的國家結果我們到目前為止還不允許還不允許我們的國民能夠做這個這個移轉這個投票所以我想說是剛剛胡教授您說您是支持的"},{"start":12100.45,"end":12104.782,"text":"那我們法過了以後 你也會按照這個去辦理對不對我們"},{"start":12106.041,"end":12130.624,"text":"立法院法律通過之後中選會會依據立法院所通過的選罷法等相關法規或公民投票法來處理我希望吳教授能夠遵守法律因為我們現在看太多期行政院長沒有遵守法律立法院通過的法律把它視為空氣形同空氣那我再想請教你一件事受刑人權利有民間團體認為非常關注受刑人跟羞辱人的投票權"},{"start":12131.525,"end":12159.825,"text":"那過去中情會認為根本不可能在在監投票那這等於完全剝奪了受刑人跟收容人的他這個憲法賦予的權利那我知道胡教授您在11月去年你也主持過在收容人投票權研討會擔任這個主持人胡教授你認為收容人跟受刑人有沒有投票權我先問你有沒有投票權有投票權只要他們沒有被褫奪公認他們就有投票權那如果有你要怎麼落實呢"},{"start":12160.492,"end":12175.252,"text":"我覺得在投開票所的設置上面來講我們因為要兼顧到公開化以及安全的問題這個部分其實我覺得不管是中選會或者法務部其實應該更努力來解決這問題因為他們有些人不是不在急有些人其實急就在監鎖"},{"start":12176.894,"end":12202.171,"text":"你提到的還是技術面問題嘛你在歐洲嘛歐洲他們就是很多人就有很多國家他就設了這個在間投票嘛這個你們你過去所屬的時代力量他們也是一直用這樣做例子嘛所以胡教授你認為是可行的嗎我認為可行這一次就可以辦了嗎年底的選舉就可以辦了嗎這個我不確定這個可能要跟幕僚機關以及各省市選委會來辦但是從我的觀點來講我一直都認為這是可以做的"},{"start":12206.155,"end":12217.698,"text":"可以做就要去做啊我也會去從我的觀點我也會去推行這件事情謝謝謝謝吳教授謝謝我們感謝陳昭芝委員質詢現在中途我們不需要休息繼續開會因為現在12點了在這裡我們鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":12248.117,"end":12265.225,"text":"福教授好原住民選舉前的困境沒有聽過吧我有聽過原住民議題我其實也有熟悉謝謝你的關注秘密投票"},{"start":12266.994,"end":12290.328,"text":"原住民很多的選舉沒有秘密投票的一個情形雖然憲法規定的很明確無記名投票是方法行之但是因為原住民從原鄉到都會區工作的非常多然後遷积的也很多"},{"start":12291.263,"end":12319.099,"text":"所以相關的這些事實上在都會期原住民的人口數已經達到50%有社會籍的已經達到50%左右所以這樣的一個情形之下一個投票所只有一個人的就有以平地原住民來講就有966人一個投票所兩個人的以平地原住民講來說就是1034"},{"start":12321.127,"end":12345.306,"text":"如果包括三個人的總共有2900多將近3000人那我們看山地原住民山地原住民也是一樣也有類似這樣子情形一到三人的總共有3235人所以他投票給誰一開票就知道他投票給誰所以他就變成說"},{"start":12347.805,"end":12365.896,"text":"會考慮是不是要不要去投票會有這樣的一個情形所以這樣的一個情形怎麼樣去保障憲法徵修條文第十條第十二項保障原住民的政治參與政治參與除了參政權之外還有選舉權選舉權本席透過質詢請這個中選會要這個"},{"start":12375.939,"end":12400.956,"text":"解決秘密投票 質詢了非常非常的多次因為事實上是可以 不修法其實是可以的以公職人員選舉辦人法第57條第三項 原住民公職人員選舉得徵走實際情形 單獨設置投票所或在選舉區內辦理投票"},{"start":12403.789,"end":12430.869,"text":"事實上只有規定 但是一直沒有辦法落實所以本席不得不修法所以今年 去年12月26號三讀通過為保障原住民秘密投票權益 應單獨設置投票然後不受第17條第一項應在戶籍地投票之限制當初在修法的討論的時候中選會還是不支持"},{"start":12432.211,"end":12461.103,"text":"所以這樣的部分如果這個副教授能夠擔任副主委或者是其他的被提名人也能夠擔任委員希望落實這次的一個修正的條例可以嗎 可以接下來談不在己投票原住民族的不在己投票事實上最可以先實施的是"},{"start":12462.153,"end":12483.501,"text":"立法委員因為原住民的立法委員的選區是台澎金所以跟總統一起選舉所以原住民要實施不在籍投票是應該最優先來辦理是可以執行的因為我們每一個投票所都有我們的選民"},{"start":12485.27,"end":12505.878,"text":"都有投票所了就是移轉投票就很容易了因為每個台北市每個都有原住民的投票所所以這個部分是可以先實施的因為沒有實施所以造成我們原住民與非原住民的投票率的差異你想想看以3D原住民來講我們就講第11屆立委"},{"start":12507.546,"end":12535.312,"text":"差距13.83%投票率平地原住民是7%多這樣的一個落差就是因為太遠了我們看這個台灣地圖一個住台北市的鄉親他要到蘭嶼投票回去他的戶籍地就很遠不要說蘭嶼就到屏東或是到台東都非常非常的遠而且還要到山上"},{"start":12536.531,"end":12563.215,"text":"不是到了台東火車站之後 還要到山上所以這個原住民族的不在籍投票更是有它的一個需要性我看了這個印尼 在台灣我們的外勞 印尼的外勞在台灣都是 都投票所以在台灣投票在台灣還不只 不是只有在台北市每個縣市都有投票所"},{"start":12564.498,"end":12587.33,"text":"像這樣他們都可以受得到這樣的一個情形我們確實做不到我們真的是要加油所以這個部分也希望我們這個胡教授以及各位被提名人到了中選會之後能夠優先支持嚴肅民主的不在己投票 可以嗎可以 沒問題謝謝我們感謝鄭天才委員資訊"},{"start":12593.496,"end":12610.125,"text":"咱家習星雲委員 習星雲委員不在咱家省花卉 省花卉委員不在葉延芝 葉延芝 葉延芝不在"},{"start":12619.888,"end":12635.819,"text":"在這被提名人胡柏彥先生所說明和質詢的都已經結束完畢委員習新英提出書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":12641.357,"end":12649.721,"text":"再來我們比提名人的吳博言先生可以先離席可以先離席我們現在的休訓五分鐘"},{"start":12666.591,"end":12677.897,"text":"我們繼續國分前後繼續進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明價值詢問謝謝大家辛苦了"},{"start":12807.111,"end":12807.234,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":13060.815,"end":13066.638,"text":"來 繼續開會 進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明和詢答請黃文玲女士說明主席"},{"start":13077.857,"end":13092.868,"text":"各位委員各位在場的先進大家午安大家好我是黃文玲那這次非常榮幸的能夠受到這個行政院提名為這次的中選會委員的被提名人"},{"start":13093.368,"end":13105.019,"text":"那今天來這裡呢也是要跟大家來分享就是說我其實民國83年就考上律師那一直擔任律師到現在那在期間呢在2012年到"},{"start":13108.842,"end":13129.315,"text":"14年的時候擔任第八屆的立法委員那有短暫的時間在立法院那時候也是在內政委員會那期間呢我在過去從事這個律師的職務其實有辦理非常多的這個選罷法的案件包括會選案當選人這個資格不私認的案子還有"},{"start":13130.035,"end":13143.805,"text":"就是譬如說有假訊息的案件等等所以在實務上或許能夠提供給未來的中選會一些建言當然我本身在2004年的時候還有2014跟18也都參與過"},{"start":13148.548,"end":13168.503,"text":"立法委員的選舉及彰化縣長的選舉在選舉的過程當中當然就會有非常多的選務的紛爭我想我們主席也是身經百戰大家都也很清楚就是選舉可能會遇到的一些糾紛我覺得這一次的被提名人裡面"},{"start":13169.444,"end":13185.009,"text":"其實跟上一屆的感覺上好像比較多的出入因為上一屆我看實務界的律師有好幾位那這一次的被提名人裡面大部分都是學者專家而且都是憲政的學者專家那實務界的好像律師就只有我一人"},{"start":13185.669,"end":13207.825,"text":"那我希望說如果未來有機會擔任中選會的委員我們除了要讓中選會要保持他的獨立性中立性及公正性之外還要維護他的專業跟可信賴性那當然在這個過程之中選務的過程之中確實有非常多的可能會"},{"start":13208.525,"end":13224.542,"text":"涉及到紛爭的部分會影響到這個選務工作人員的部分所以未來如果有機會的話我們也是應該要來維護我們選務人員的尊嚴那以上那希望說就是能夠對這個中選會能夠有所貢獻謝謝謝謝 感謝說明我們這裡黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":13240.428,"end":13264.453,"text":"謝謝主席 我請被提名人請讓我們被提名人委員好 好久不見我稱呼您黃律師好黃律師很高興在這邊看到您尤其是您的父親是以前非常受敬重的中選會的主委我想中選會也好或者是任何選委會的委員都需要"},{"start":13265.373,"end":13282.334,"text":"移植相關的公正跟獨立性那民主選舉的過程裡面不是只有最後一天的結果我想過程很重要過程的公平包括更多的所謂的不孝方法或者是說有一些不正當的方式造成了選舉的不公"},{"start":13283.188,"end":13300.472,"text":"那我個人比較我看到你的問卷大概到大部分都有回答不過我今天要問的是根據有關選舉過程裡面其實最大的一塊叫做媒體不公媒體不公的部分在各個法律其都規定得非常清楚總統副總統選罷法46條還有公職人員選罷法49條在廣播電視"},{"start":13306.013,"end":13331.728,"text":"也從事選舉或罷免相關議題的論證新聞報導或邀請候選人罷免案提議人或被罷免人的參加節目要公正公平處理不可以有無正當理由的差別待遇但是這麼多年來我相信你也選過去我們只要是非所謂主流媒體的支持的對象大概都會在很多媒體中被消失"},{"start":13332.581,"end":13355.393,"text":"包括在我想去年的總統大選也非常的清楚2024的總統大選非常清楚的是某個藍媒 綠媒現在已經台灣人都有一定的既定的印象你會看到有一些藍媒看不到綠色的綠媒看不到藍色的那更糟糕的像台灣民眾黨我們是中間所以兩邊都看不到"},{"start":13356.834,"end":13369.631,"text":"這個部分我們曾經也提出過很嚴肅的控訴那NCC有回答說查無證據啦我們也有檢舉但是回去要給中選會所以我們就不禁要去查到在101年"},{"start":13370.888,"end":13393.858,"text":"在105年其實中選會都曾經對於媒體沒有邀請平衡報導或者是沒有邀請到這些所有的參選人而開罰的紀錄我想請問您您對第一媒體在選舉過程中沒有依法行事第二個105年到現在已經快10年了沒有塵埃任何一個媒體處罰"},{"start":13394.898,"end":13409.756,"text":"所以反而我們會懷念您父親當時當中選會主委的時候我們還有道德勇氣對媒體做相關的裁罰如果有這樣的案子我想知道您的想法跟您對於選舉公平應該在媒體上面怎麼樣來維護中選會的獨立性跟公正性"},{"start":13414.597,"end":13440.218,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想剛剛你提到這個部分其實我深受感同因為我其實我在2014年到18年這兩次彰化縣長選舉我就是以無黨籍的身份參選但是確實是媒體就是全部都把我們的新聞全部都消失被消失掉所以我可以感受到就是說就是選委會在這個"},{"start":13441.319,"end":13462.866,"text":"辦理選舉的過程之中其實它是必須要秉持公正客觀的態度而且其專業的部分那至於就是特定的媒體那他們是不是可以就針對這個部分就是被選舉人就是沒有做公平的報導的部分是不是應該裁罰的部分其實我記得我那時候有去抗議過"},{"start":13463.806,"end":13493.446,"text":"但是似乎是好像沒有作用因為他們認為那個是NCC的所以這就是我們今天中選會其實在101年曾經罰過當時是華氏在政見發表會之後沒有播出某個候選人的會後記者會被裁罰了20萬基本的該有的所以我認為中選會應該要有基本的就是法律的價值它的價值就是要維護選舉的公正公平"},{"start":13493.886,"end":13523.232,"text":"然後每個這個候選人都能夠在這個媒體上能夠被揭露我想大家都可能很清楚的知道這個公正性的確在現今的台灣媒體環境裡面做不到但是我相信中選會應該要做到中選會如果中選會還有道德勇氣的話我們十年來都沒有成過半子案子但是105年那時候還有某些節目只邀請特地的候選人還有"},{"start":13523.832,"end":13550.867,"text":"只邀請某些特定的沒有給予其他選區同樣的候選人相同的機會就被裁罰了40萬跟20萬這是我想中選會委員必須要秉持的一個中正的立場所以他們那個時候的中選會委員可能有道德勇氣才會做這樣的一個裁量所以我們也期待我們未來有機會擔任委員的話也希望能夠秉持這樣一個立場是 只要依法就好公平就好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13554.336,"end":13580.236,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝黃珊珊委員北提名人黃文玲女士在說明和詢問已經結束我們北提名人黃文玲女士可以先行離席我們休訓五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":13600.777,"end":13611.381,"text":"謝謝大家的收看"},{"start":13632.579,"end":13645.603,"text":"謝謝大家謝謝大家"},{"start":13673.537,"end":13673.557,"text":"來,請坐"},{"start":13678.372,"end":13702.382,"text":"那個要不要就是因為我們就就是就我們一個人一個人這樣看他的狀況但是我覺得就是"},{"start":13704.722,"end":13723.253,"text":"我覺得 我等一下去跟他溝通好了因為我們 因為目前的話我們諮詢人就我們諮詢人可以拖八分 等一下還要等一下我算一下 四分多 八分多"},{"start":13735.708,"end":13757.381,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13768.275,"end":13783.93,"text":"喔 可以可以 因為報告人是八分鐘 然後兩分鐘對 對 對 說明大概幾分鐘就三分鐘兩分鐘 沒關係 因為我也在三樓 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13791.954,"end":13805.708,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13820.623,"end":13850.452,"text":"然後再下一個說明完再下一個所以它還有一遍大概就是這樣我會聽到我前面講的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話"},{"start":13866.325,"end":13866.365,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13890.919,"end":13899.364,"text":"來 我們繼續開會我們繼續進行被提名人李立忠先生的說明和詢問請中選會委員被提名人李立忠先生說明"},{"start":13914.861,"end":13932.458,"text":"王主席還有各位委員還有我們張秘書長還有各位在座的先生跟女士我是李李仲那很高興這次被我們行政院提名為中央選舉委員會委員的被提名人那我在此報告那我們都知道民主"},{"start":13933.839,"end":13958.77,"text":"選舉制度乃是憲政秩序與民主制度的一個核心那它的公正性跟可信賴性跟穩定性直接關係人民對我們台灣民主的一個信賴的關鍵中央選舉委員會肩負了選舉與公民投票的規劃執行與監督的重任"},{"start":13959.935,"end":13986.054,"text":"其專業性 獨立性跟依法行政對於民主制度之健全運作具有關鍵的意義唐友信擔任中央選舉委員會一職個人將超越黨派以維護憲法精神確保選舉公平強化制度信賴為最高自我期許"},{"start":13987.659,"end":14002.521,"text":"然而 擔任中央選舉委員會委員並非權力之所在而是責任與信賴之所繼本人之抱負在於以專業 理性與公正"},{"start":14003.78,"end":14020.969,"text":"首先合法協助台灣建構一個經得起政治競爭社會檢驗與歷史評價的選舉制度為我們民主發展盡一份長期而穩定的力量以上報告謝謝各位"},{"start":14024.705,"end":14042.041,"text":"謝謝感謝說明因為沒有委員長去接訊所以我們的李立中的說明到這裡 提名人李立中先生可以先行離席我們休訓兩分鐘謝謝"},{"start":14047.498,"end":14057.107,"text":"有機會這樣議席議席要不然坐在那裡聽一些大家留意的意見這樣也很好謝謝 辛苦辛苦有機會這樣"},{"start":14075.623,"end":14092.375,"text":"哎呀"},{"start":14100.401,"end":14112.586,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":14136.376,"end":14144.378,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14171.233,"end":14187.669,"text":"來 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生之說明跟詢問我們現在中選會委員被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生說明"},{"start":14196.281,"end":14208.906,"text":"主席 秘書長 麥委員 還有全體的女士們 先生們我是福音科技大學蘇嘉鴻蘇老師"},{"start":14210.917,"end":14237.499,"text":"我在這個學校任教已經有32年的歷史在去年因為種種的機緣巧合被推薦被提名所以有這個機會來這邊接受大家的提問我在這裡想要講兩件事情第一件事情"},{"start":14239.857,"end":14263.016,"text":"從早上到現在所有的委員們對被提名人的提問大概聚焦在幾件事情上面大概不外就是公投綁大選以及不在籍投票另外還有其他的問題不管怎麼樣這都是一個值得追求的"},{"start":14265.632,"end":14269.512,"text":"未來方向 它是一個值得追求的未來方向"},{"start":14270.58,"end":14296.194,"text":"但是我們必須要很誠實的去面對中選會現在當前的行政量能未來的考驗其實都在於未來的中選會能不能在自己的行政量能上面有所擴張 有所深化來因應這些挑戰"},{"start":14298.404,"end":14315.497,"text":"所以在一個值得追求的方向它代表了一種進步的價值但與此同時我們對於中選會的目前的行政量能卻沒有與時俱增的一種調整這完全是不現實的"},{"start":14317.079,"end":14342.805,"text":"那中選會的組織編制據說是57個然後預算編制是55個總之他不會超過60個人那地方選委會是負責選務工作所以不管是境外的或者是這個省委的啦等等的這些各式各樣的挑戰"},{"start":14344.113,"end":14364.228,"text":"那麼中選會其實是沒有辦法回應這個現代的時代需求跟社會的這樣的殷切的期待所以在這種情況之下我認為就是我要講的第二點中選會的委員們應該是要專任的目前是無幾職"},{"start":14368.666,"end":14376.903,"text":"那NCC跟這個公平會呢都是專任的那這個以兼任的"},{"start":14377.697,"end":14401.874,"text":"兼職的 無幾職的委員要來因應這些剛剛講過的重重的挑戰實在是分身乏術了 實在是分身乏術幸好此時此刻的審查會是在這個禮拜如果是在上週上上週的話是學期最後一週要辦這個"},{"start":14404.127,"end":14430.513,"text":"期末考 要簽考 要印考卷什麼的怎麼可能來呢要把本職工作薪水顧好所以這麼工作 這個工作這麼兼具對委員來講 確實無幾值的兼職這是一個很奇特的現象所以我們必須要讓獨立機關的獨立性因為委員的踴躍性獲得保障"},{"start":14431.383,"end":14459.479,"text":"那這個機關才能夠因應未來的這麼一些更多的一個挑戰那麼第二件事情就是說那麼有關於這個選舉罷免的訴訟選罷法的這個訴訟目前都還是在民事法院裡面它明明是公法訴訟那這個部分我們可能在未來也可以再重新做個調整跟思考以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":14462.782,"end":14467.985,"text":"謝謝感謝首名我們這裡定期麥一貞委員質詢謝謝主席 有請蘇老師蘇老師謝謝老師好 真的辛苦了"},{"start":14491.857,"end":14520.191,"text":"所以我們說想要請問一下因為現在的選舉制度你有說了就是憲政由內政部主管選務由中選會負責的分立設計原意在於落實責任政治就是維護選舉的中立但你也指出實務上因為全職的交"},{"start":14521.171,"end":14538.448,"text":"交換 所以呢 往往就是導致改革就是遲締甚至使中選會受制於行政關係難以回應高度流動社會於新型的風險所以呢 我想要請教兩點第一 在維持分立的架構下 你認為"},{"start":14545.695,"end":14569.137,"text":"中選會應清楚定位以依法執行選務的獨立機關而非非推上政治的正義第一線第二若短期仍維持分立體制是否通過交錯的任期專任化外部專家參與度透明等的"},{"start":14569.797,"end":14581.743,"text":"制度設計就是逐步強化中選會獨立性與公信力我們要的就是可以獨立作業嗎 這樣子的一個目標"},{"start":14583.439,"end":14599.071,"text":"是的 我原您的提問通通都是我的答案我就是肯定的很好 所以在我們的問卷裡面也有回覆指出說選舉權不是刑"},{"start":14602.413,"end":14627.282,"text":"形式的權利 而是國家必要積極保障的基本權 當人民因為求學啊就業啊 或者服役或職群無法返回戶籍投票的時候 我國家就是要提供替代制度 實質上就是就限制其他投票並"},{"start":14629.623,"end":14651.214,"text":"對年輕人還有流動人口造成不平等所以我們你認為在就是本人到場還有身份查驗也秘密投票的前提下國內移轉投票在實質上不是便利措施是"},{"start":14652.652,"end":14679.282,"text":"國家例行憲法保障參政的必要制度你也強調說國內轉移投票不同於資訊或者電子投票風險可控不宜被過度上網為國安問題那麼有立法完成不在籍投票的法治化的那個就是投票的法治化"},{"start":14680.12,"end":14692.096,"text":"你是否認為中選會在制度設計就是執行上應如何就是權力就是最大為原則從如何讓更合格"},{"start":14694.1,"end":14719.586,"text":"選民安全投票出發因為現在很多地方就是各國等於是說印尼 菲律賓他們都是可以就是在台灣在投票但是我在這邊強調的是說我們的民眾黨說的就是在台灣 在台灣 在台灣是移轉投票而已所以你覺得是說這樣子我們能做得到嗎"},{"start":14722.008,"end":14742.545,"text":"以目前国内的移转投票我认为中选会可能步步为赢也是步步为赢赢得胜利的赢这件事情我觉得中选会可能还可以勉强的"},{"start":14745.747,"end":14770.143,"text":"跟上社會的需求但是如果我們繼續做民主深化的話我們還要再做其他更大的發展的話以目前我再強調一次我所了解到的中選會的行政量能是做不到的所以必須要有所調整才能夠因應時代的變遷回應社會的需求 以上"},{"start":14771.363,"end":14797.666,"text":"中選會應該做得到現在我們是台灣是科技國家所以這個是說應該要做得到不是說還在不一定做得到我覺得這個是已經我們台灣已經應該要做得到的所以接下來我想要請教一下因為現在就是兩岸人民的關係明定大陸地區人民在"},{"start":14798.867,"end":14822.203,"text":"涉及滿十年還有我是外配也是滿十年就是依法登記為公職候選人但是立法則憲法徵定條文裡面第十一條所做出了特別規範但近期引發就是行政機關用國籍法張大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14828.787,"end":14854.174,"text":"人民比例外國人額外要求放棄所謂的外國國籍形同就是以行政解釋架空的特別法所以你在這邊也是就是你說理解所以你也是說依法依法就是涉及滿十年原則是大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14854.514,"end":14857.955,"text":"參政權是否以憲法保障的基本權應用優先因為在我們的兩岸條款這邊就是說優先應用所以排除國籍法的類型就是來去適用所以在目前我們的部會"},{"start":14875.522,"end":14892.814,"text":"法律見解出現就十分之甚至有行政官員公開宣稱說陸配參政權已死的情況下你是否認為說中選會應依特別法明文辦理選務而非"},{"start":14895.456,"end":14897.719,"text":"而非就是被動承受這樣子可能違憲的行政解釋以免就是實質剝奪人民的參政權報告委員"},{"start":14909.515,"end":14936.473,"text":"台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例相對於國籍法民法諸多的相關涉及的法律目前就是一種特別法優先適用於普通法的這樣的一種法律適用關係這是沒有疑問的如果啦在這個特別法的跟普通法的這種優先適用關係不成立的話"},{"start":14937.577,"end":14960.613,"text":"那大陸地區人民來談 繼承這個遺產的上限兩百兩百萬可能就會怎麼樣呢那就不用遵守了 回到民法它的印記份或者是什麼樣的那都很可能超過兩百萬所以這個特別法的問題 這是第一個第二個 這個叫做期待可能性"},{"start":14961.734,"end":14988.463,"text":"如果中國大陸是沒有放棄國籍的這樣的一種法治的話強要我們的大陸配偶回去大陸去放棄國籍在客觀上沒有其他可能性強人民之所難以此來剝奪人民的參政權這個我不能認同 以上報告"},{"start":14989.042,"end":15012.56,"text":"好 謝謝 再給我一分鐘謝謝主席 謝謝我們的老師給我們的說明所以我常講的就是說我們不要因出勝地來去決定我們在台灣的我們拿身份證是跟我們國民一模模一樣樣參選也是一模模一樣樣的當選也是一模模一樣樣不要再拿出勝地來去"},{"start":15013.741,"end":15020.589,"text":"就是在台灣努力的人所以在最後就是請教我們的教授你在問卷中也多次強調選舉制度的核心不在政治操作的便利而在"},{"start":15029.36,"end":15032.201,"text":"憲法持續的穩定以及人民參政權是否能對實質保障在這樣子的一個關鍵問題你是否未來擔任中選會的委員在面對高度的政治爭議或跨部會法律的見解的分支時"},{"start":15050.348,"end":15068.241,"text":"你將如何具體拿捏中選會作為獨立機關的分機確保制度解釋回到法律明定性以憲政的原則真正守住民主制度與人民參政權的長期保障是 報告委員那個超越黨派依法行政公正公開 以上報告"},{"start":15078.763,"end":15092.09,"text":"好 太好了 謝謝希望未來就是要看你要讓我們的國家正常運轉讓保障我們的人民 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 感謝麥真委員質詢南北提名人蘇嘉鳳先生的說明跟質詢都已經結束"},{"start":15105.802,"end":15114.647,"text":"被提名人舒嘉宏先生可以先行離席休息兩分鐘 謝謝大家"},{"start":15143.251,"end":15145.052,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":15153.558,"end":15173.178,"text":"因為是很方便,現在我們是在滿國之大地,很方便,因為如果東南歐,那是一個很舒服的地方,很舒服的地方"},{"start":15173.899,"end":15198.916,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":15204.111,"end":15209.814,"text":"慢慢來"},{"start":15241.724,"end":15255.032,"text":"謝謝 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人舒芝喬先生之說明和詢問請中選會的委員被提名人舒芝喬先生說明主席 黃委員各位委員"},{"start":15268.98,"end":15279.649,"text":"張秘書長還有在座各位先進 大家好非常榮幸能夠在這邊接受立法院的審查"},{"start":15283.568,"end":15299.828,"text":"很榮幸被台灣民眾黨推薦然後受行政院提名為中選會的被提名人我目前在東吳大學任教目前是東吳大學政治系的教授我自己的研究專長研究領域是"},{"start":15301.67,"end":15312.881,"text":"憲政體制還有選語制度那對於選語制度事實上有蠻多的這個世界各國選語制度有蠻多的一些觀察跟研究所以我自己個人認為就是說有這個機會有這個榮幸"},{"start":15317.626,"end":15334.906,"text":"如果能夠到中選會來服務的話其實是貢獻我自己的所長所以作為一個學者能夠進行公共服務有這樣的機會其實我是非常覺得是樂觀其成的而且也是覺得很榮幸能夠有機會擔任這樣的工作的"},{"start":15338.98,"end":15356.6,"text":"我對於自己的這個中選會的一個如果說將來能夠有機會能夠擔任中選委員的話我想我對自己的一個自我的定位是超越黨派然後依法行政然後公平公正的性質權雖然我是受台灣民眾黨所推薦但我不是台灣民眾黨的"},{"start":15358.121,"end":15380.522,"text":"政黨的代言人因為做一個中選會這樣的獨立機關我做一個研究憲政憲法的學者其實我對獨立機關本身的一個期許是相當的深厚的所以如果說我真的有機會有榮幸擔任中選會委員的話我想這是我一個對自己的一個非常深切的自我的期待自我期許"},{"start":15381.701,"end":15396.941,"text":"那就是我覺得中選會在過去這幾年來在政治的紛擾當中事實上確實它的公信力跟它的一些它的獨立性似乎受到社會各界的某一些質疑不過其實我還是相當"},{"start":15397.982,"end":15417.982,"text":"程度肯定這個中選會的同仁的在選務工作上的很多的努力那只是說在台灣目前這個朝野的這樣的一個對立情況之下不免會有一些對中選會這個獨立機關的這樣的一個一個政治上的一些批判那我認為就是說強化中選會的"},{"start":15420.203,"end":15442.335,"text":"公信力 獨立性是這個未來中選會要進一步去努力的一個方向那我也希望就是說我未來如果有幸作為一個中選會的委員在這個合一制的運作之下能夠貢獻自己所長然後這個對於這個台灣的民主深化民主鞏固以及這個民主的韌性盡一分心力我想我就簡短報告到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":15445.214,"end":15468.939,"text":"謝謝 感謝說明我們今天定期張祺凱委員質詢家屬教授 主席你先"},{"start":15471.638,"end":15498.671,"text":"所以說今天從游營榮游主委到副主委到目前最熱門的被問到的就是不在即投票了不在即投票游營榮游主委提到的是他贊成可是他要求從公投開始做事實上最近這幾天有看到民進黨立院黨團向前跨了一步立院黨團的幹事長鍾嘉斌講說必要的時候從總統大選都可以開始做"},{"start":15500.814,"end":15516.386,"text":"那我看你回答我們這個問卷你是贊成不再急投票的特別是台灣民眾黨現在提出來版本國內移轉投票有沒有可能 有沒有可能如果你獲得提名完之後我剛剛講的是三個階段"},{"start":15517.492,"end":15534.959,"text":"游英龍公投到了民進黨黨團連總統大選都可以了有沒有可能進來之後如果成功被提名通過這個中選會的這個提名之後進來之後有沒有可能在今年的年底縣市長的投票有可能可以做不在籍投票嗎"},{"start":15536.167,"end":15564.966,"text":"我想謝謝委員那個詢問就是不在於投票現在當然要等那個法律通過嘛所以中選會作為獨立機關最重要值得是依法行政啦所以我是很樂見就是說寫期待就是說這個不在於投票法能夠通過那事實上我覺得目前對於不在於投票的一些疑慮我想確實是存是我想可以肯定的事實上你剛提了一個非常重要依法行政是就是民眾黨這個版本已經提出來了"},{"start":15565.706,"end":15579.747,"text":"如果立法院三讀通過的民眾黨這個版本那就是中選會就在依法 依法憲政嘛 對不對那如果來得及的話就是今年年底的縣市長選舉可能就可以開始做這個台灣民眾黨這個版本而且這個版本"},{"start":15581.65,"end":15607.019,"text":"不是什麼有什麼國安餘力什麼境外勢力介入的他沒有國外也沒有兩岸我們這個界定的就是國內的移轉投票就是你還是要親自要去投跟你有提到說這跟通信投票又不一樣對不對所以執行上應該是沒有問題的那我問你一下因為剛剛有這個委員就回答說中選會的行政量能做不到你覺得做不做得到"},{"start":15608.209,"end":15632.064,"text":"我覺得中選會當然就是他會一個比較謹慎的態度在面對這個事情啦可是我自己會認為就是說如果真的法律已經通過了那中選會當然就是要盡力去配合辦理那我也認為中選會在一定的時間準備之下是應該有一定的準備的量能去推動這件事情的依法行政然後盡快推動是可以"},{"start":15632.484,"end":15661.614,"text":"有機會在年底依法來行政來做的對不對其實是有可能的事實上你是專門研究選舉的日本都已經實施不再舉投票大概二十幾年了二十幾年了我看那個報導上面寫他說日本連在攔戟日本人去攔戟都可以投票他們甚至可以提前投票跟美國都是一樣的南韓也有嘛他們號稱科技大國怎麼我們的技術是有問題的連我們的移工"},{"start":15663.364,"end":15690.604,"text":"在台灣的印尼的移工 菲律賓的移工他們都有投票啊所以老實講我們要趕快去推動要不然真的會被世界上笑啦好 OK這個題希望你以後可以盡力去推動那當然就是可能有些人可能意見會不一樣可是最重要最重要的就是這個法有沒有在最近完成三讀另外我看你的回答裡面有一個非常重要的這個上次總統大選的時候啊有一個非常有名的這個網紅"},{"start":15693.528,"end":15710.901,"text":"愛麗莎莎 她因為轉發了有些民眾有在質疑說是不是有作票結果後來你們中選會就告了她了後來沒有起訴 黃國昌就在問她說中選會到後來一句抱歉都沒說 你怎麼看這樣一個事情"},{"start":15713.269,"end":15734.61,"text":"我想中選會作為一個獨立機關它的基本的做法應該以公開呈現為主要優先的一個選項我想提起訴訟這個是一個比較相對來講我覺得個人來講是一個比較激烈手段呈現把事實呈現不是急於去輕鬆你的態度是這樣所以以後希望中選會不要急著去輕鬆最後問一個問題最要緊的問題"},{"start":15737.886,"end":15753.351,"text":"這個去年引起最大爭議的就是國民黨提了實質廢死的這個公投在中選會被廢掉了你怎麼看這樣一個事情如果你當選了中選會的這個委員之後如果再來提一次這個實質廢死這個案子你會怎麼樣來處理這個案子"},{"start":15757.492,"end":15782.386,"text":"這個問題確實是比較在憲政協議上我覺得是比較有真理的不過我簡單回答就是立法院所提的公投案依照目前這個公投法的規定其實中選會是沒有審查權的所以當立法院真的提了這樣公投案我想中選會我如果說這個案子重新這個同樣發生的話中選會必須依法辦理那只是說確實這個用憲法"},{"start":15783.286,"end":15807.609,"text":"就是公投去推翻憲法判決本身這個事情的這個議題我覺得我作為一個學者我是有一點疑慮的不過作為一個中選會這個獨立機關的角色我認為就是依法行政我想這是最優先的考量中選會去沒收立法院的這個提案那不就變成是太上立法院了對不對 而且你講到一個重點你今天質詢 我覺得你答詢得非常好你都是依法行政在做事情所以如果這個案子如果"},{"start":15808.67,"end":15815.296,"text":"最近又被提出來 請依法行政來做事情不要急於去沒收 好不好好 好 非常謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 我們感謝張之凱委員質詢"},{"start":15828.578,"end":15850.395,"text":"我們繼續經營被提名人蘇志喬先生說明跟詢問都已經結束了在這裡被提名人蘇志喬先生可以先行離席我們休息兩分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":15858.928,"end":15867.874,"text":"一幕,一幕啦,我們要五分啊,改兩分啊,開始啦,前輩,前輩,馬上好,欸,兩分鐘啊,DJ,啊,這樣喔,這個,這個,這個,這個主持人,"},{"start":15891.894,"end":15900.716,"text":"今天等於說對我們來講就是七場啦所以一定要切啦對,對我們來講就是七場"},{"start":15912.664,"end":15925.411,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":15938.533,"end":15939.394,"text":"30秒30秒他有那個壓縮那個時間"},{"start":15967.372,"end":15979.099,"text":"我們繼續進行被提名人陳忠義先生說明及詢問這中選會委員被提名人陳忠義先生說明"},{"start":15990.647,"end":16006.678,"text":"主席 張紅蘿委員 吳啟明委員 在座各位官員我是這次中選委員被提名人陳忠義很榮幸也很高興能夠來立法院來答詢 接受審查"},{"start":16008.834,"end":16031.53,"text":"我想今天坐下來 我是當然 人家說好酒定慢醉不是淡於中宿 那我想今天聽了吳思瑤的選舉創意美學我們很有啟發 也聽到張宏祿委員對選辦法第98條之一虛為欠席戶籍 意圖使人當選五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":16032.23,"end":16044.938,"text":"所以我們都聽到很多委員的寶貴意見我們都會吸收來加以運用那我有能性的通過的話我一定會秉持公正公平獨立專業依法來執行職務謝謝各位 謝謝 以上謝謝 感謝蕭明我們前期的委員長黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在"},{"start":16064.195,"end":16077.851,"text":"比提名人陳忠義先生說明及諮詢已經結束了比提名人陳忠義先生可以先行離席"},{"start":16081.653,"end":16106.042,"text":"本次會議定期的這項跟問出委比提名人的本院委員除了不在場議員全都已經發言完畢 審討結束委員有蘇巧慧 莊瑞雄 高金樹梅"},{"start":16107.369,"end":16129.395,"text":"在博弈省發會所提出的書面執行列入紀錄 刊登公報委員會這順中間有要求提供相關資料與密度報告報告的部分將行政院與相關機關進行書面答覆"},{"start":16134.637,"end":16163.3,"text":"報告聯席會對院會交付審查行政院寒送中央委員選舉委員會委員提名名單游一龍為委員並為主任委員胡柏諺為委員並為副主委委員黃文玲"},{"start":16164.434,"end":16176.704,"text":"李立忠 蘇嘉鴻 蘇芝喬 陳忠義軍委委員請同意案"},{"start":16185.035,"end":16193.76,"text":"審查完均做以下的關係本院審查完均依六款依之前行使法第29條的第三項規定以2月13日依據審查報告"},{"start":16205.937,"end":16210.68,"text":"提請院會公決請問各位委員有沒有什麼意義沒有 我們就通過本案與院會討論的時候由王召集委員會補充說明請問各位委員 還有什麼問題沒有沒有 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麥玉珍 丁學忠委員三人列席官員 大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑暨相關人員內政部常務次長吳唐安暨相關人員中央全局委員會法務部外交部國家安全局國家通訊傳播委員會數位發展部交通部司法院監察院財團法人海峽交流基金會等機關代表暨相關人員主席王昭吉委員美會討論事項審查反滲透法修正草案暨時案討論事項合併詢答委員"},{"start":1675.712,"end":1701.867,"text":"沈博洋 王定宇 黃捷說明提案要旨大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑內政部常務次長吳唐安報告委員蘇巧慧等17人質詢分別由大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑及相關人員國家安全局第三處陳副處長法務部參事謝志明司法院刑事廳法官吳元耀內政部常務次長吳唐安中央選舉委員會法政處處長蔡京高數位發展部法制處副處長吳怡倫答覆說明"},{"start":1702.327,"end":1726.361,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員莊銳雄 林怡瑾 丁學忠 徐欣盈 沈發慧等五人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及位及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢請問各位委員 今天會議記錄有什麼錯誤與疑慮嗎沒有"},{"start":1732.871,"end":1748.001,"text":"議事錄確定我們繼續進行討論署行簽讀審查行政院涵送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單游盈隆為委員並為主任委員胡柏彥為委員並為副主任委員"},{"start":1748.901,"end":1767.209,"text":"黃文玲 李李仲 蘇嘉鴻 蘇紫橋及陳忠義 軍委委員請同意案依序分別審查由被提名人 迎龍胡被提名人 博焱黃被提名人 文玲李被提名人 李仲蘇被提名人 嘉鴻蘇被提名人 紫橋陳被提名人 忠義 宣讀完畢我們來介紹主席的委員跟行政機關列席的委員跟被提名人"},{"start":1786.826,"end":1807.007,"text":"我們先來第一位張志倫委員第二位劉錫廷委員現在進來我們的王鴻薇委員我們現在向正義秘書長張敦漢秘書長"},{"start":1811.314,"end":1816.475,"text":"中央選舉委員會主任委員被提名人游一龍副主任委員被提名人吳柏彥委員提名人比提名人黃文玲"},{"start":1834.541,"end":1842.286,"text":"委員比提名人李立忠委員比提名人蘇嘉鴻委員比提名人蘇志橋委員比提名人陳忠義主任必須謝美玲"},{"start":1863.717,"end":1874.106,"text":"我們行政院林署行政總署培訓考用處處長李花蘇你歡迎"},{"start":1888.137,"end":1895.403,"text":"立法院院會第11屆第4期第16次會議報告交付內政司法及法治兩個委員會審查中央委員會所提出的命令"},{"start":1910.723,"end":1914.604,"text":"兩委員會一位26級辦公廳會以前也已經完成本院各黨團隊被提名人的資格"},{"start":1925.309,"end":1952.296,"text":"事任性所提出的書面問題函請行政院轉致各備提名人經行政院函附各備提名人提出與相關的資料並以檢証於各黨團在案本案審查程序安排在28日、29日兩天一天"},{"start":1954.684,"end":1955.045,"text":"會議分配審查"},{"start":1961.484,"end":1986.661,"text":"本這個會議開始進行前行宣告以下事項先進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明及答詢依程序由行政院張秘書長及游盈隆先生分配說明後進行詢答"},{"start":1988.383,"end":2003.879,"text":"由榮榮先生撥分全部達成結束後 休訓10分鐘再進行提名人胡柏彥先生的署名與答詢程序與定管一樣 並釋放會議"},{"start":2010.325,"end":2033.473,"text":"會議進行的總統職項與程序分別進行比提名人黃文玲、李立中、蘇家鴻、蘇芝喬、陳宗義說明與答詢答詢的時間出席出席委員會六分鐘內席委員會四分鐘"},{"start":2038.835,"end":2044.402,"text":"本院的委員會議定期時間10點半一至本次會議沒有要處理臨時提案現在我們請行政委張秘書長進行說明"},{"start":2065.396,"end":2092.17,"text":"主席在場的各位委員各位先生女士媒體朋友大家早安今天立法院內政跟司法法制委員會聯席審查行政院所提名的七位中選會委員被提名人本人應邀這個列席報告宣感榮幸選舉罷免跟公民投票都是我國國民重要的參政權"},{"start":2093.479,"end":2118.513,"text":"也是憲法保障人民參與公共事務的基本權利台灣透過了一次次選舉罷免或者是公民投票逐步的深化我國的民主憲政為了貫徹憲法保障民主法治及人民參政的主旨總選會秉持超然中立 恪守中立的精神統籌辦理"},{"start":2120.814,"end":2144.737,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免及公民投票的事務持續鞏固公平公正公開的公共事務環境以確保國民意志的展現因此中選會運作是中華民國實現民主核心的機制以下僅就本次的提名作業做簡要的報告跟說明依照中選會組織法"},{"start":2146.496,"end":2174.398,"text":"第三條第一項規定中選會設置9到11個人其中一人為主任委員一人為副主任委員其他的委員7到9位那這次的提名也是依照中選會組織法來進行提名領選具有法證相關的專業經驗的公證人士來擔任委員中有同一個黨籍的不得超過委員總數的三分之一"},{"start":2176.906,"end":2202.011,"text":"那也跟大家報告跟說明依照中選會組織法的規定中選會除了主任委員跟副主任委員之外其餘經為兼職無給職那這次的提名也依照這樣的規定來進行跟辦理那麼第二個說明是中選會前主任委員李靖勇副主任委員陳昭健委員許惠峰 陳恩明 王韻如"},{"start":2203.277,"end":2218.411,"text":"徐亞芬等六人的任期已經在去年的11月3日屆滿另外委員蒙志成也因為個人的因素而提早請辭所以這一次行政院提名游英龍為委員並為主任委員"},{"start":2220.509,"end":2247.442,"text":"胡柏諺為副主任委員並為委員委員包括了黃文玲女士李李仲先生 蘇嘉鴻先生 蘇紫橋先生等六人那以上這六人的任期會依照相關的法令規定任期會到2029年的11月3日而且委員蒙志成的遺缺將由陳忠義接任任期會到明年的11月為止"},{"start":2249.471,"end":2272.93,"text":"那這次中選會的新任委員提名是依照中選會組織法第三條規定辦理滿足了三個法定的條件第一個滿足了中選會組法第三條第四項的規定提名了具有豐富專業學識或實務經驗的公正人士來進行第二個同一個黨籍的委員也不會超過三分之一在這次被提名人當中"},{"start":2274.324,"end":2302.163,"text":"僅有胡柏諺有時代力量的黨籍蘇嘉鴻教授有中國國民黨的黨籍那陳忠義前立委則是有民主進步黨的黨籍其他的四個人目前僅為無黨籍如果蒙大院通過所有的人事同意權後那麼加上目前現有的四位委員委員的有黨籍的同一黨籍的人數的比例不會超過法定的三分之一"},{"start":2303.339,"end":2324.114,"text":"那第三個經過這次提名作業的竊竭拒絕所有的七位被提名人均無中國戶籍也無外國戶籍或永久居留權也符合了相關的國籍的規範那以下也就這次七位被提名人的學經歷背景做簡單扼要的報告"},{"start":2326.991,"end":2355.059,"text":"那第一位是主任委員 並為委員游盈榮教授那大家對他很熟悉他是台灣民意基金會的董事長過去長期在學術界在東吳大學任教非常多年那在中央的行政經驗他不但擔任過過去行政研考會的副主任委員陸委會的特任副主任委員海基會的副董事長兼秘書長"},{"start":2356.874,"end":2382.131,"text":"也擔任過中選會的委員在政治學比較政治民意與投票行為政黨選舉等領域專業駐有專精那第二位是胡柏彥委員並為副主任委員胡柏彥教授現在是東吳大學法律系的教授專長是憲法行政法過去他也在不同的大學任教"},{"start":2383.598,"end":2410.681,"text":"也曾經擔任過許多中央部會的書院審議會或者是法規委員會的委員那他也曾經擔任過中選會書院委員會的委員對於中選會的業務也是非常的實務上也是非常的了解那第三位被提名人也是過去的資深的立委黃文林律師那黃文林律師的專長是法律及內政"},{"start":2412.284,"end":2437.106,"text":"曾經擔任過第八屆的立委也曾經擔任過多個仲裁協會的仲裁人在程序、主持、爭議處理方面有相當豐富的實務經驗第四位是李李仲教授李李仲教授是由中國國民黨所推薦的被提名人李教授現在是中華科技大學的專任教授"},{"start":2438.174,"end":2458.163,"text":"也是副校長專長是商業跟金融監理的法規公平法跟智慧財產權等多元的領域那他過去也曾經擔任過第七屆公平教育委員會的委員長期投入法學的研究兼具公共治理選務跟獨立機關的實務經驗"},{"start":2461.53,"end":2484.826,"text":"那第五位蘇嘉鴻教授也是中國國民黨所推薦的優秀的人選那蘇嘉鴻教授目前是福音科技大學的專任教授過去在中央他也曾經擔任過海委會國家海洋研究院海洋政策及文化研究中心的主任等職務現在也擔任許多地方政府"},{"start":2487.796,"end":2511.955,"text":"醫療爭議調解委員會跟醫事審議委員會的委員從中央到地方從理論到實務也具有豐富的經驗第六位是舒子喬教授那舒子喬教授是台灣民眾黨所推薦的被提名人那舒子喬教授是現任東吳大學政治系的教授專長是憲政體制選舉制度以及比較政治"},{"start":2514.367,"end":2542.916,"text":"長期研究我國的憲政制度跟選舉制度並著作等身有相當豐富的期刊跟論文那第七位被提名人是陳忠義前立委他目前是桃園市選委會的委員專長是法律曾經擔任升格之前的桃園縣的桃園市長也是立法院第五屆的立法委員資深立委"},{"start":2544.181,"end":2571.059,"text":"在地方不只有行政的經驗也擔任過長期的縣議員的職務具有豐富的中央跟地方的實務經驗相信也能夠為中選會無論是中央或者是地方的選舉事務能夠投注非常多的專業的貢獻那這次中選會的提名作業也感謝國民黨以及民眾黨"},{"start":2574.884,"end":2593.445,"text":"舉薦優秀的人才經過行政院審酌的考量秉持著韓納各黨推薦橫跨朝野背景兼具理論實務以及中央地方經驗這四個原則我們就相關的領域領選了七位"},{"start":2594.741,"end":2615.012,"text":"被提名人加上現有的四位中選會委員也都是學長巨優相信能夠為中選會籌辦選務注入專業全面的規劃跟運作思維持續深化中華民國台灣的民主法治體現主權在民希望"},{"start":2616.38,"end":2645.249,"text":"貴院所有的委員能夠理性審議予以支持 以上報告請各位委員先進指教 謝謝謝謝 感謝張秘書長的說明現在我們開始來進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明和答詢請被提名人游盈隆先生說明"},{"start":2659.629,"end":2684.209,"text":"王主席各位委員行政院張秘書長各位女士各位先生大家早安大家好我今天非常榮幸能夠以中選會主委被提名人的身份來國會的殿堂來接受各位的"},{"start":2686.331,"end":2715.252,"text":"提問不過一開始我沒有預期到說我還要做報告要做說明不過我簡單的講11月底我接受行政院的提名我是抱持著一個如臨深淵如履薄冰的心情接下這樣的一個提名我知道"},{"start":2717.011,"end":2743.566,"text":"中選會主委的工作是非常的艱鉅的中選會的工作不是常人所能夠理解但是中選會的工作關係到台灣民主的成敗所以承擔這樣的一個角色那是無比的沉重也無比的榮幸"},{"start":2747.267,"end":2751.749,"text":"我是懷抱理想跟使命感而來我希望為台灣民主做出貢獻在目前國內政局緊張政黨高度競爭的環境裡面中選會要如何"},{"start":2776.061,"end":2801.632,"text":"做到讓各黨都能滿意讓所有的候選人能滿意讓選民能夠滿意是一個非常艱鉅的挑戰但我相信如果我獲得大院的同意支持未來我一定會"},{"start":2804.282,"end":2831.329,"text":"堅持絕對的超然中立客觀公正並且專業的精神和能力全力以赴希望中選會一個健全的中選會能夠在大院的支持之下早日的出現在國人眼前讓我們"},{"start":2833.166,"end":2854.518,"text":"我們2026的大選能夠順利成功讓我們2028的大選能夠順利成功中選會是這樣的一個角色我在這裡非常誠摯的也謙卑的要向我們的國會報告並且也請求讓中選會"},{"start":2864.349,"end":2891.091,"text":"人事案早日通過 讓中選會早日上路為大家做事 謝謝大家謝謝 我們現在請登記第一位 牛西庭委員質詢謝謝主席 請備題名人游教授請游教授"},{"start":2899.758,"end":2917.487,"text":"好早安林委員早這個您大部分我們認識游教授都是在新聞媒體上因為這個台灣民意基金會的這個民意調查也算是赫赫有名長時間的滾動提供了政治圈非常多攻打手邊的一個素材那大家在"},{"start":2918.726,"end":2945.287,"text":"這個看到游盈隆教授被列為中選會主委的提名人的時候大家當然是有一些意外也有很多問題想要請教那麼今天很高興有這樣一個機緣可以跟教授來做一下面對面的討論我問的第一個問題就是你應該如何確保啊這個如果有幸成為中選會主委啊因為你平常也評論非常多的一個政治的事務也做民意調查在基金會裡面有職務你怎麼樣確保這之間的分際可以非常的清楚你打算做哪一些的決定"},{"start":2948.396,"end":2973.935,"text":"謝謝牛委員我已經有了相當的覺悟擔任中選會主委也有一定程度的犧牲是要付出的我可能失去了自由我的意思是說失去評論台灣公開評論台灣政治的自由作為一個政治學者"},{"start":2975.23,"end":3004.095,"text":"我作為一個關心台灣的知識分子那樣的一個犧牲是重大的但是為了更高的目的為了更重大的目標我覺得我必須做這樣的歌聲一語雄長不能得見好 所以意思就是說不會再發表相關的評論民意調查等等也會離開基金會的職務是這樣的意思嗎如果大院能夠"},{"start":3005.266,"end":3026.884,"text":"通過中選會主委的人事同意權任命我將辭去台灣民意教育基金會的董事長也辭去董事我採取比法律更嚴格的標準做自我的要求非常好 謝謝"},{"start":3028.294,"end":3056.467,"text":"那麼我們再針對幾個常常我們在中選會這個平台做討論的題目跟教授做一下意見的交換這個目前立法院有很多的委員提案修正公職人員選罷法或者是不在籍投票的各種相關的一個草案那也有這個這個大家的版本不一樣但大部分的版本基本上都是限於所謂的境內移轉投票有關不在籍投票的部分換言之就是透過登記的部分我不見得要舟車勞頓的返鄉"},{"start":3057.967,"end":3086.897,"text":"我可以在就近的投票所去投別的選舉這是在自己戶籍所在地的這樣子的一個投票那我想請問一下被提名人立法院如果修正相關的法令新增了不在籍投票相關的制度限於國內移轉投票請問您會不會忠實的執行立法院通過的法律當然如果立法院通過了不在籍投票中選會只有依法行政全力以赴好 謝謝"},{"start":3088.103,"end":3114.416,"text":"那您覺得在您如果你有機會領導中選會啦您可能需要多少時間來做好境內移轉投票制度的相關準備工作我不知道這項立法到時候在立法院會如何通過整個制度的內容到底是怎麼樣我不清楚但是我也要就最近我從我們中選會"},{"start":3117.639,"end":3139.077,"text":"同仁那里所得到的许多的资讯我深深的感觉不在即投票是世界的潮流也是台湾许多人直觉上对的一个努力方向但是"},{"start":3140.732,"end":3170.098,"text":"當我們在講世界各國很多都採取了這個不在籍投票的時候台灣沒有感覺到自己落後了自己很慚愧我覺得那種心情是可以理解的我肯定那是一個進步的思維可是我們也不能夠脫離現實如果回到我們自己的國家的選舉制度"},{"start":3172.025,"end":3185.677,"text":"我們深入去看很快就會發現不在籍投票牽涉的是非常複雜的選舉的工程尤其是九合一尤其是在九合一地方選舉裡面"},{"start":3199.188,"end":3220.356,"text":"實施不在籍投票就現階段來講肯定是一個災難中選會已經提出來如果在九合一地方選舉辦不在籍投票將會造成將近九千種不同的選票在極端的狀況下所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":3224.028,"end":3245.234,"text":"很重要的一點我們喜歡看天邊的彩霞但不要踩壞了眼前的一大這個玫瑰讓我們的這個傲視世界的台灣選舉然後蒙城教授這個那到底是要執行還是不執行花多少時間準備"},{"start":3246.351,"end":3262.104,"text":"所以我剛剛講原則上我剛剛已經講但是願意執行但需要很多時間準備實際上要通過什麼樣的制度內容目前您知道嗎還是您可以現在告訴我我可以做回應當然這個有很多不同的版本"},{"start":3262.684,"end":3284.121,"text":"這個如果你有幸擔任中學會主委相信還有很多討論的機會但因為時間有限我們還有問最後幾個問題因為我們的執政黨曾經表示如果施行不在籍投票會導致選民投票的信任消失會有作票的風險也曾經說會有讓中國大陸借選更加容易即便我們剛剛講的現在的不在籍投票的版本是國內的移轉投票"},{"start":3285.041,"end":3308.983,"text":"這樣子的一個說法你認同嗎在你領導下的中選會你如何去避免這個選務公信力下降的問題你該如何把這個東西帶領好你真的覺得不再投票會有作票的風險嗎請你簡要回答就好選務行政的公信力是非常重要甚至是最重要的讓選民相信選舉的結果是公正的那但是呢"},{"start":3311.833,"end":3333.844,"text":"實施不在籍投票最大的困難是來自於執行面在可行性我覺得境外的影響等等可能是比較其次比較其次還是在於選務整個在操辦選務過程中遇到的一些新政的困難那你有沒有信心可以逐步的解決我不要講一步到位"},{"start":3335.611,"end":3362.568,"text":"如果立法院提了一個中選會沒辦法執行的一個方案壓垮中選會我也沒辦法在這邊跟您保證說一定就能夠做得好如果這樣的話是不負責任的好 謝謝教授 因為今天時間有限不過我建議你 後面還有很多委員要就教就直接回答這樣子就好了 好吧好 這給你一點點提醒跟建議 祝你今天順利 謝謝"},{"start":3366.075,"end":3371.099,"text":"謝謝我們感謝牛西廷委員質詢 我們請張志倫委員好謝謝主席各位媒體各位官員大家早有請這個中選會主委提名人游盈榮教授請游教授"},{"start":3393.646,"end":3412.842,"text":"好 教授好首先恭喜你成為中選會被提名人也預祝你可以順利當選那教授容我稱你教授那教授過去這個本席對你的了解不管是從這個電視上或是一些民調當中去了解您"},{"start":3413.542,"end":3441.572,"text":"那當然您對這個在去年的時候針對於這個大罷免的亂象你也公開提出這個批評甚至非常誠實的說這是對民主的傷害您的說法是執政黨就是參與發動這場全面性無差別的大罷免企圖奪回國會主導權不僅是台灣民主主流的民意的反對也會被其他民主國家不能接受"},{"start":3442.031,"end":3462.637,"text":"所以這個意思就是說大罷免不是民主之光反而是台灣民主之恥這是您說的嗎是 我講過是 好 那本席在這邊必須要稱讚您就是你願意講真話的風骨本席予以高度肯定那這邊我本席也要特別講在台灣這個民主史上不管是選舉"},{"start":3463.997,"end":3487.444,"text":"罷免或是公投在選舉制度上其實是蠻完整的一個制度可是在罷免跟公投上過去產生出了很多問題尤其在罷免上就您的這個評論來講就是執政黨其實利用了罷免裡面很多的漏洞來去做一些這個政黨政治的一些對決跟一些操作所以本席想要這邊特別跟你請教尤其是在罷免"},{"start":3489.105,"end":3507.984,"text":"這個每一個民意代表當選一年內可不可以執行罷免的這個連署的時候其實這個法是無明文規定的可是會造成這個社會上的一個對立所以本席必須要說選舉投票是一個民主的行為可是罷免它是一個"},{"start":3509.164,"end":3537.713,"text":"政黨的一個對決而且造成社會分裂而且是長期會造成一個情熱的問題投票你投誰大家非常清楚嘛而且這是秘密投票大家不知道你投誰可是罷免如果你沒有去連署的話會造成無盡的情熱啊而且說你沒有罷免我遇到很多民眾跟我講說他就是不想要連署罷免可是被民眾這樣子要求說一定要罷免要去簽連署還有一些攤販跟我講說他如果沒有去連署罷免他會人家會跟他恐嚇說"},{"start":3538.613,"end":3560.431,"text":"你這樣子我的生意讓你做不下去喔所以我覺得在當選一年內去做這樣子的這個罷免的連署喔其實就是現在整個制度上的一個漏洞那我看到你的報告裡面也有想說你未來會倡議說不能去進行這樣子一個動作請問你有沒有一些具體的做法或是未來可能會跟內政部去討論這樣的事情以目前的制度來看這個對於"},{"start":3568.07,"end":3594.737,"text":"罷免的規範是在選完一年之後也就是說當選一年之後才能夠進行罷免但是法律沒有禁止社會對就是說有相關的罷免的言論主委你同意這樣子這個不說言論是大家言論自由可是進行連署的一個方式您自己本身也是不贊成的對吧"},{"start":3594.977,"end":3616.751,"text":"我不贊成連署因為可以倡議那是言論自由那但是如果這個進行連署的話那就會對於我們想培養的這樣的一個成熟的政治文化是有傷的"},{"start":3617.959,"end":3635.172,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝教授教授你講的我覺得其實就是我們的心聲為什麼因為其實當時這個連署的一個過程造成社會分裂而且很多民眾其實被情的恐嚇這樣子的狀況其實非常的不好那也希望說未來你有機會擔任主委的時候也要多倡議這樣的行為變成說謝謝"},{"start":3637.854,"end":3656.091,"text":"那第二個我相信很多委員今天都有在跟你請教就是有關於不在籍投票的一個部分那不在籍投票其實目前其實我覺得這是非常重要因為現在就針對很多在投票所的工作人員他們其實有時候他們現在也是可以不在籍投票是嗎"},{"start":3657.892,"end":3675.62,"text":"所以現在的行之有年就是很多的工作人員其實在投票所的時候他們是可以進行不在籍投票所以本席有看到你的報告裡面寫說未來可行不在籍投票的順序第一個是移轉投票針對限定境內或身份特殊或者是戶籍地"},{"start":3676.44,"end":3697.195,"text":"在外的一些選務人員未來可以來考慮或者是在特定身份的不在意投票比如說這個援助民族或是服勤的警消人員等等我覺得這兩點我覺得非常重要因為第一個很多的公務人員或是警消人員其實他們的工作地跟戶籍地是不一樣的地方所以"},{"start":3698.115,"end":3725.265,"text":"這個部分本席也支持非常強烈支持您這樣的主張那是不是有一個期程說如果是不是可以先通過比如說我們一般的這個公務人員或是警消人員他們可以先來辦理這樣子的一個不在籍投票是不是可以請您回答是根據中選會最近的這個研究跟思考中選會是建議"},{"start":3726.646,"end":3746.421,"text":"不在籍投票先从单一的公民投票开始实施然后逐步的累积经验之后进一步推广到各项选举所以就这个角度来讲我觉得这样的一个态度是神圣的"},{"start":3746.969,"end":3766.956,"text":"是負責任的所以未來是不是能夠什麼時候哪一年能夠有一次公民投票然後在公民投票裡面試行不在籍投票然後我覺得那會是一個很重要的開始"},{"start":3767.486,"end":3790.026,"text":"好 了解 就是先從公民投票先起然後之後可能再就不特定人再來就是可能有進步有機會可以全面好 那我也希望主委這邊加速來實行那最後一個問題其實 針對其實當時我們這個立法院其實有決議一個這個公投的一個主題叫做反廢死"},{"start":3791.067,"end":3813.73,"text":"公投那當時是被中選會來就是否定這樣子的這個題目那因為當時這個議題有對很多民眾來講是非常的重要因為當時大家看到很多的這個殺人事件覺得說這樣現在的現在的民進黨政府就是不願意對現在比如說一些的案件去這個判死刑所以當然民眾覺得很"},{"start":3814.591,"end":3842.329,"text":"不能接受所以當時立法院才有這樣子的一個提案然後沒有想到被當時的中選會給否決那我想要請問主委當然你們否定也沒有當時你們有自己的理由啦那是不是針對這些民眾所關心的重要的這個公投的議題未來是不是有一些可以大家可以溝通的機會而不是說中選會直接把立法院提出的這些公投的主題直接給把它否定掉是 這是一個很複雜的問題我覺得"},{"start":3845.164,"end":3872.537,"text":"未來應該要多做溝通我覺得會比較好否則這裡面牽扯到太多複雜的問題沒有溝通的話引起強烈反彈對社會也不好好 謝謝教授聽到非常開心有機會第一次跟你這樣子面對面的質詢也期待你可以未來有機會可以當我們中選會的主委謝謝你 謝謝"},{"start":3878.535,"end":3899.786,"text":"謝謝我們感謝張志榮委員質詢我們家張宏祿委員我請我們的游主委加油教授"},{"start":3908.713,"end":3922.902,"text":"首先質詢前還是要稱老師好啦好 張委員好游教授是我大學的老師其實我很多的這個"},{"start":3926.298,"end":3946.306,"text":"這個政治學的東西都是游教授教導我的所以今天這樣問我是有點尷尬但是還是要問我想請問一下很多的委員也都有在關切這個不在即投票"},{"start":3947.066,"end":3967.352,"text":"但不在一起投票其實分了很多種大家現在一直在講一直在講其實慢慢的好像聚焦在移轉投票台灣現在大家一直慢慢聚焦在移轉投票其實我們中選會辦的就是選政的工作我們的選務的工作其實都是地方選委會在第一線在辦"},{"start":3968.892,"end":3992.427,"text":"那選政的工作我們就是說我想要請教游教授就是說其實台灣現在已經有部分的移轉投票我們投開票所的工作人員就有移轉投票那如果貿然的"},{"start":3994.111,"end":4020.493,"text":"要大規模的這個移轉投票我個人 我一個很擔心的問題我想不出解方也沒有任何人可以提出任何解方未來如果移轉投票變成是選政的一個改變的話我可不可以指定某些人去某個投開票所我去那邊投票跟開票"},{"start":4021.983,"end":4033.192,"text":"會不會有這種可能發生要看選區吧要看選區如果我為什麼要這樣講會變成買票"},{"start":4039.68,"end":4063.488,"text":"買票的人 我要求你收了我的錢你去特定的投開票所投票我買幾票 你沒有開出來幾票你就是給我跑票未來會發生這種情況如果發生這種情況我不知道各位被提名人你們有沒有解方"},{"start":4065.229,"end":4085.023,"text":"我相信目前都沒有解方啦我不知道教授您的看法我這樣講好了不再急投票我剛剛說的是世界的潮流民主國家採行不再急投票非常多那我們台灣在這方面其實已經落後很久了"},{"start":4091.98,"end":4120.609,"text":"所以要迎頭趕上我覺得在道理上是說得過去的不在即投票你讓許多無法返鄉的人去在他居住地投票這說起來社會上普遍也是會贊成的但是我也同意張委員剛剛所說的這可能會產生很多的問題包括你說的買票"},{"start":4122.754,"end":4140.047,"text":"這是因為我們台灣從來沒有實施過不在籍投票所以我們不知道會碰到什麼情況所以在這樣的情況底下事先當然應該做好非常周全的研究調查"},{"start":4142.133,"end":4167.047,"text":"然後考量各種因素然後再來進行我覺得目前中選會所提出的這樣的一個解決方式我覺得是可行的就是說我們要循序漸進不是一步到位我們一開始就在九合一選舉裡面全面性的弄不在即投票這個是太"},{"start":4169.86,"end":4192.07,"text":"太大膽而且太冒險的作為報復平和不足為訓是不是可以未來從公民投票開始先從那裡開始實施然後逐步的累積經驗然後解決了"},{"start":4193.513,"end":4205.585,"text":"我們社會或者是很多人們的疑慮我覺得這樣子分階段一步一步的走會是比較好的做法我也是這麼認為我覺得我們先從公投先對視"},{"start":4210.39,"end":4228.489,"text":"對勢來移轉投票 為什麼呢我也覺得這個不再急投票很多的國家都這樣做那台灣要不要跟著做我覺得這是一個很崇高的理想我也不反對但台灣有特殊的買票文化"},{"start":4229.471,"end":4248.428,"text":"美國會買票嗎不會吧對不對但台灣這個買票文化我們從報紙上就看得非常的清楚到處都有在買票幾十年來都是這樣那如果我們對人的選舉也實施移轉投票"},{"start":4250.117,"end":4272.243,"text":"我們的對岸中國我跟你講透過大規模的買票這個是對台灣一個非常嚴重的一個災難所以我個人我是認為對全國性的公投事情我們可以先來做做看為什麼我要這樣我必須再說我辦過選舉我是"},{"start":4275.958,"end":4294.054,"text":"縣選委會的總幹事我當了四年從村里長的選舉到總統的選舉我都親自辦過我跟你講 選務的複雜程度啊超乎大家的想像我們連一張選票連那個有汙損或印得不好"},{"start":4295.563,"end":4315.906,"text":"我們要一張一張選票這樣去看從頭到尾看到尾那個每個人壓力有多大如果你要移轉投票我跟你講問題太多了我要光說一個你連投票通知單 你選舉公報他要移轉去那裡 要誰去送到時候他說我沒有收到"},{"start":4317.217,"end":4338.15,"text":"這個有很多技術性的問題所以我必須要說移轉投票不是不行但不能照進照進會把台灣馬上一次垮掉如果一次選舉的不公平大家以後對選委會這個公信力就不在我常講一句選委會"},{"start":4340.034,"end":4356.856,"text":"如果你要辦選舉我多給你人多給你錢很多技術性是可以克服的但公信力是最重要的一件事選務公信力三個字是最重要的所以我還是覺得主委教授"},{"start":4358.459,"end":4375.749,"text":"如果你的看法也是一樣就是從事情先來我覺得應該是先朝這個方向不可以一次太躁進不知道教授的看法我完全同意你的看法我覺得這樣做對台灣是比較好的好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張宏祿委員接受我們請黃姐的委員"},{"start":4395.336,"end":4399.985,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請游盈隆被提名人加油教授"},{"start":4408.376,"end":4428.723,"text":"好黃委員好是好 邱董事長先跟您請教這個不在即投票其實您剛剛已經有提到一個重點就是說不在即投票雖然世界各地有很多國家在施行但是我們不一定要這樣冒進而且如果直接用九合一大選來貿然的進行的話會是一場災難"},{"start":4430.143,"end":4445.269,"text":"這是您剛剛的論調那我在這邊也想要附和這個論點因為其實大家也知道說選舉的公信力是最重要的那選舉如果我們九合一大選直接開始施行不在籍投票的話您剛剛是說會增加9000種選票是嗎就選票的種類來講是將近9000種"},{"start":4452.89,"end":4481.663,"text":"是的這就是一個非常重大的技術性的問題所以我在這邊想請教的是你們有沒有先算過如果九合一大選只要直接使用不在籍投票會要增加幾倍的經費幾倍的人力多少個投開票所因為我還沒有上任我只是努力的去收集相關的訊息我不知道中選會是不是已經評估出來我目前手邊沒有這樣的資訊"},{"start":4482.813,"end":4508.899,"text":"好那我在這邊先提供一些資訊喔在2021年內政部其實有大概統計過就是說如果這一些就學就業沒有涉戶籍那可能會因為不在籍投票而可能可以投票的人大概第一名是在雙北大概就有37.4萬人那第二名會在台中有26.5萬人第三名是桃園有26萬人第四名是台北有18.5萬人"},{"start":4510.479,"end":4532.57,"text":"那如果這些人通通來申請這個不在籍投票大概就是會增加大概百萬人以上那這個是2021年的數字那台北市的選委會當時也有出來說光是這個投開票所可能就要增加三倍以上那如果現在年底就要來做這件事情的話您覺得可行嗎您就一個選務機關的考量來說選籍"},{"start":4538.315,"end":4559.823,"text":"2026地方選舉是11月28號舉行今天正好1月28號 就是10個月左右我覺得直覺上是不可行的事實上最近中選會也曾經行文給各地方的選舉委員會"},{"start":4562.025,"end":4582.059,"text":"各地方選舉委員會也都回報關於不在籍投票地方的態度沒有一個選委會是同意在這一次採行不在籍投票的所以地方事實上也是挫雷彈"},{"start":4583.815,"end":4613.515,"text":"是嗎因為就我剛剛說的光是台北就說要增加三倍了更不用說其他像是新北台中這一些可能不在籍的人口有大概三四十萬人的這一些選區喔那所以我覺得這當然是一個很大的技術性的挑戰但是話說回來剛剛其實有一句話我其實沒有很認同是剛剛這個有董事長說我們台灣沒有實施不在籍投票跟國際上相比來說是落後的"},{"start":4614.255,"end":4642.064,"text":"那我必須要說其他的國家跟台灣的情況大大的不同啊你不能拿台灣的情況跟世界各地來比啊請問其他國家有中共借選嗎有一些想要試圖來破壞我們台灣民主的這些境外勢力嗎沒有嘛那再來其他的國家有像台灣這樣經歷過這些什麼中立事件等等買票做票的過去選舉舞弊的歷史嗎"},{"start":4642.924,"end":4663.144,"text":"也沒有嘛所以台灣的過去民主的歷史是非常艱辛的我們是這樣一步一步大家靠著人民的信任人民的爭取那我相信游董事長過去也是經過這些民主的事件努力撐起台灣的民主的所以一直拿國外來跟台灣比較我覺得非常的不公平"},{"start":4663.664,"end":4677.66,"text":"那台灣現在需要的是一個非常可信穩定而且有這個選舉公正性的民主制度所以任何的變革我認為都必須要在非常的可信而且公正的基礎上來進行選務的變革沒有不行"},{"start":4680.683,"end":4706.652,"text":"但是前提非常非常的重要因為台灣的民主很辛苦我們是這樣撐起來的所以在這邊還是拜託我們這個游董事長如果要回答說不再投票是國際的趨勢的時候拜託想想台灣自己特殊的歷史拜託想想台灣過去是怎麼走過來的所以不要一味的說要跟國際上來比較這真的不是一朝一夕可以做到的"},{"start":4706.952,"end":4720.846,"text":"那最後會有一點時間我跟您請教這個公投綁大選因為過去有董事長一直都是支持公投綁大選的所以在這邊想請教那如果您未來上任之後您還是支持公投綁大選嗎"},{"start":4722.332,"end":4740.66,"text":"我當然支持公投綁大憲而且也沒有不支持的空間因為法律已經修正了所以我在這邊就要請教的是沒錯因為這個藍白還是強行的又再次通過了嘛那我要請教的是那您要怎麼務實的解決過去2018發生的邊開票邊投票的問題開票到半夜三點的問題以及這些因為人綁事而造成這個沒有辦法好好的討論公投議題"},{"start":4751.844,"end":4778.079,"text":"以上這些問題直接民主是民進黨的核心價值我過去二十幾年來當我是一個民進黨黨員的時候我實際的參與相關的事務無數的民主前輩為了能夠實現公投犧牲奉獻他們的青春生命自由"},{"start":4779.409,"end":4801.982,"text":"所以公投是一個民進黨的核心價值是所有的民主國家應該要追求的是的 我們都認同我們也非常支持公投制度所以我在這邊跟您請教的是如何防範重演2018邊開票邊投票以及開票到半夜三點以及這些可能會影響選舉結果的可能的情況再度出現"},{"start":4803.571,"end":4831.354,"text":"2018年是一個噩夢而且這個噩夢的形成有一些條件支持其中一個那您如何預防未來不會再重演呢這是一個選務機關最重要的工作我可以說明一下嗎2018那一次有十項公投這十項公投選委會公告之後一個多月而已就要投票"},{"start":4832.614,"end":4852.905,"text":"所以造成整個秩序大亂 這是其中一個所以這一次 經過這幾年來朝野的共同體認之後修法所以將公告之後一個月就投票 改成三個月這是一個很重要的改變第二個"},{"start":4854.778,"end":4877.605,"text":"以前辦理那麼龐大的選務一半法律規定一半是要軍公教人員現在也修正成三分之一只需要三分之一所以我在這邊希望您可以承諾既然公投綁大選是您的立場也是您的責任那未來希望你可以承諾在你的任內絕對不會再發生2018的噩夢我們盡力而為這個要請你保證謝謝"},{"start":4883.663,"end":4898.925,"text":"好 謝謝備題名人 謝謝黃建委員好 接下來有請王美惠委員主席男嘉游教授有請備題名人 謝謝"},{"start":4905.129,"end":4917.502,"text":"王委員好你好在這幾天的過程當中我們有看到你的履歷剛才你說到你人家告訴你要做檔門這個節目的時候也有一邊高興"},{"start":4925.197,"end":4947.497,"text":"也有一邊為了理想而走因為在這個過程當中我們的選舉委員會中選會是要有中立的在剛才本席所聽的好歡樂的就是覺得大家都想你長久以來是在民意教育基金會裡面擔任當事長"},{"start":4950.834,"end":4955.083,"text":"剛才有很多委員請教說你可以當時時你說你如果"},{"start":4962.05,"end":4975.673,"text":"這個人事案過 過得馬上死因為我覺得好的理想雖然是夢死 有的人也說你每天都在批評民進黨那是怎麼來做這個因為我覺得有擔當的執政黨裡面"},{"start":4987.495,"end":5010.684,"text":"應該無論他是我什麼人 他是北平什麼人今天我們要做政府單位是看他的認知所以在這裡我保證 我在這裡也是國民黨也是我們的朋友任何一黨都是我們的朋友為了理想 為了建設"},{"start":5012.125,"end":5018.711,"text":"我們都要做法表這是最好的 如果不做朋友 我們也沒辦法不可能說法表當中 你的總選委跟你不共同 不一樣的想法 你就不採納他的意見跟他的想法 大家討論之後 才可以"},{"start":5036.987,"end":5047.465,"text":"有好好的問題出來所以在這個過程當中最重要最重要在那裡大家差不多都說不再舉投票高雄你有說"},{"start":5050.014,"end":5055.615,"text":"可以為公道開始但是在這個過程中你剛才有回答過跟我們是怎麼理會一般人會亂吵吵會這麼多人會開票的時候又有人又要投票因為這種我相信在你的代言之下以後可能不會再來發生也不是可能而已一定不會再來發生"},{"start":5077.742,"end":5092.223,"text":"在不在一起投票的時候有很多人歡樂的就是像我們的孫悟寧原譬如他在黨區做孫悟寧原像我自己來說"},{"start":5094.005,"end":5106.135,"text":"他在當局的補考在當局的 但是他算不領完譬如是在第一樓的票箱第一樓的票箱不是他應該到的地方 因為他有申請嘛但是在這個過程裡面 你覺得他最高興的就是議員都一樣"},{"start":5119.859,"end":5128.343,"text":"市長都一樣縣和里長不一樣他這張票如果沒投出來是人家縣的里長還是他沒投里長大家都知道所以告訴你"},{"start":5136.208,"end":5163.467,"text":"在這裡面我就是說我們教育也好 全國也好我們今天是要講全國的 但是我是批論這個情形給你聽因為我們中華民國的台灣的選舉是大家最近都認為最好的雖然是很古早 但是改進到有夠好的因為我們那些黨議會"},{"start":5165.288,"end":5175.031,"text":"就是我們有一個派出兵在派出兵當中有時候會應用到選舉因為我常常說好的人才認真發表的民意代表我們一定鼓勵他當選但是在這個過程當中不再是投票有時候會去應用到選舉的結果"},{"start":5192.675,"end":5198.517,"text":"所以在這要問教授不再審投票本身跟你說因為有時候選票票數也很多也有現在都回到選票票數也有但是在選票票數你如果在本層第三張很多選票票的人在那裡大他不覺得什麼他如果兇勇去申請一個"},{"start":5219.742,"end":5225.848,"text":"我自己人都沒有在那裡的票檔我今天的票投出來這樣才算閉路投票啦告訴你來會談我所有擔心的事情我們大家來做參考因為未來這可能"},{"start":5241.321,"end":5260.808,"text":"也會逐一去改善來翁委員所擔心的一個秘密投票可能破功出問題這確實是一個問題要去注意另外就是說你一開始的計較說我批評民進黨很多我在這裡向翁委員報告"},{"start":5268.907,"end":5274.112,"text":"我都是九十輪輸 沒特別去批評民進黨我也是批評共產黨 對啦我也是批評共民黨 高師傅我現在你可能 國會有我的意思高師傅我現在是說以我民進黨的 有人說跟你們去提名這一點點要批評你"},{"start":5288.886,"end":5291.388,"text":"我來說民進黨會出的任財不分什麼 不可以說跟他批評我們說我們不好我們就不體面他啊 因為他有他的專財嘛我剛才是說這樣 因為我認為很多人都說過的 欠費到買廢人"},{"start":5313.084,"end":5315.006,"text":"所以我要跟你說的就是有這個生活我相信你也聽到了你說的說 你說的事實但是有的人覺得說有需要"},{"start":5327.723,"end":5332.33,"text":"這樣做嘛這時候我覺得說要讓這個國家愛好像你這個領袖一定很讚的啦我這時候要問你不再只投票你要怎麼去改善本縣兩個"},{"start":5345.047,"end":5347.41,"text":"會擔憂啦 憂及濫捕人如果去到台北 我再跟你說有兩個地方有很多嫁給人 那都沒差那挑剔憂心裡 我才剛才還說如果派出兵"},{"start":5359.977,"end":5365.02,"text":"我們的生活他有辦法用另外一個生活這個票房跟你們的小家庭你們兩個阿嬤去住而已這要怎麼處理這才是最重要的啦跟我是來講"},{"start":5375.93,"end":5377.872,"text":"前幾天我是想問是怎麼邀請你來 因為你有你的專長我認為批評不是壞的 批評可以讓一個人改變他的生活可以做得更好"},{"start":5395.288,"end":5398.891,"text":"這是在我都覺得很關鍵的像我 我有時候也會覺得說我們做得不好應該要怎麼做才對啦來謝謝黃委員的指教 全份了解這個不在即投票 我剛才也已經跟大家報告在這裡再說一次就是說"},{"start":5419.181,"end":5436.827,"text":"不在即投票是一個很複雜的事情不是說發作就去做那是會造成很大的問題像這災難所以要循序漸進中商會有提出一個完整的草案給鄉長"},{"start":5438.207,"end":5459.941,"text":"行政議也通過 交給立法院所以是不是可以用風雄來努力累積經驗來盡量檢討它可能造成的問題包括翁議員你所說的 閉閉投票這種很重要的事情對 剛才我還有兩三個問題我想我這幾天的時間也夠了待會我們再來探討 希望"},{"start":5466.032,"end":5483.496,"text":"我們可以做得更好因為我的想法就是不管你是來自在座的也有很多特等都提出的人才所以我們應該是樂觀青春可以讓中選會加入去做更好的事情不是在這裡說分什麼黨的 怎樣怎樣"},{"start":5490.501,"end":5503.186,"text":"這樣是不應該的 如果要問什麼東西在座的都不可能今天來到這裡 以上謝謝王美惠委員 那要提名人請回交接一下我們這裡陳佩儀委員之行"},{"start":5520.031,"end":5549.723,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請貝提銘仁貝提銘仁好董事長早安我剛剛坐在現場聽了非常多的委員跟您請教了關於不再急投票你的立場非常的清楚就是不再急投票如果貿然實施會是一個大災難那我們就接下來看大家都沒有想到的一個問題我覺得非常的可怕"},{"start":5550.182,"end":5568.566,"text":"不確定董事長你有沒有注意到在去年11月我們立法院在藍白惡意強力主導之下通過了公投綁大選而且他說投票案公告成立後一到六個月就要舉行公投這個是針對人民的部分"},{"start":5569.006,"end":5590.619,"text":"可是呢公投法又有規定董事長他說如果是總統交付或是立法院或是行政院提案的特殊公投案不適用相關的頻率跟日期的規定就是沒有一定要兩年才能辦一次所以我可不可以假設一個情況請中選會想一想也請董事長你考慮一下怎麼回答第一個"},{"start":5591.139,"end":5617.14,"text":"假設今天真的有立法院藍白黨團惡意再提出一個在今年年底大選以前就來提出一個立法院本身提出的公投案然後逼你們中選會因為剛剛主委你一直被提名人你一直說你支持公投綁大選那我就看年底選舉的時候只要立法院藍白黨團對中選會提出相關的公投案不管是什麼主題"},{"start":5618.701,"end":5640.063,"text":"那你們就要處理喔可是你剛剛跟我說你支持公投綁大選這是第一個情況那年底就會有九合一大選加上公投綁大選這是第一個困境第二個困境假設我在想像一現在網路上有非常多人在帶風向跟有相關於情討論相關幕僚可不可以讓我問完讓我問完因為第二個問題比較難"},{"start":5642.23,"end":5656.933,"text":"好 第二個問題第二個問題就是假設有人他發起一個運動叫做我假設年底真的有兩種票可以投一個是公投票一個是九合一大選票可是我只申請移轉不再期投票部分我只申請公投"},{"start":5657.834,"end":5679.416,"text":"的部分可是我不在我那個九合一大選我還是繼續在我的原戶口地方投然後呢我就開始在網路上製造一個輿論叫做是你們中選會為難我你害我只能放棄某一種選票因為可能我一個票在台北一個票在花蓮可是假設我當天又沒有辦法兩地趕著投票那他不去問他自己為什麼要操作這種行為"},{"start":5680.037,"end":5706.11,"text":"他就會問中選會假設您真的當選主委之後這絕對會是一個難題請不要說我可能過度惡意的想像我必須說現在的台灣社會確實有非常多人是刻意要製造混亂製造國內的不團結甚至在這種看起來像民生事務上給相關行政機關你們造成困難就算中選會是一個獨立機構請問被候選人被提名人你怎麼看 謝謝"},{"start":5707.851,"end":5734.902,"text":"首先關於公投綁大選的大是大非的問題他不是大是大非不好意思董事長我認為他是一個相關配套因為辛苦的是我們基層的選務人員就像您剛剛一開始有說他會動到非常非常多選票的規劃從2004年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選也都很順利的舉行了"},{"start":5736.858,"end":5760.65,"text":"2008年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選國民黨相對也提出兩個四個案也順利辦完了公投綁大選今天碰到的問題是2018的那一場災難因為那一場災難所以大家想說怎麼樣避免災難重現"},{"start":5762.079,"end":5790.738,"text":"我剛剛跟大家報告說 其中2018年為什麼是獨特的我也希望它是獨特的 不會再發生了那是因為它件數這麼多 十個然後又是在中選會公告一個月多一點的時間馬上進行投票 所以整個選務大亂所以在這種情況底下 我覺得"},{"start":5793.272,"end":5803.322,"text":"抱歉讓我這樣講西方有一句話不要倒洗澡水連嬰孩一起倒掉意思就是說"},{"start":5813.82,"end":5822.482,"text":"公投是重要的跟選舉綁在一起利益甚佳而且過去的經驗也證明說是可以沒有問題"},{"start":5823.957,"end":5848.674,"text":"所以我剛才進一步跟您請教因為我時間有限我等一下會被主席請下台所以我剛剛問假設有人立法院提案就要在今年大選的時候他真的就有公投題目可以一起投然後又有一群選民假設他真的要惡意操作製造台灣內部的分裂跟不團結氣氛那我就申請我的公民投票部分我可能在AD可是我的九合一大選我還是回到我的戶籍地"},{"start":5849.034,"end":5866.814,"text":"然後到最後說是你們中選會害他不得不拋棄其中某一種投票的權利請問我們怎麼預防這個問題我認為現在的困境就是各種荒謬的狀況真的都很有可能在台灣發生從立法院開始到很多不同黨籍的委員尤其是在野黨的委員"},{"start":5867.655,"end":5886.841,"text":"斷了製造非常多分裂跟惡意的這種對話跟論述所以我必須要提出這麼看似很荒謬的問題但是不可能因為只要是立法院提案或是行政院或是總統交付特殊的提案他就可以不用受兩年頻率這個限制是 我也很希望這種很獨特的狀況不會發生"},{"start":5889.002,"end":5905.577,"text":"但如果發生了呢我也希望不要發生那如果發生我也希望不要發生目前這個所以主委您聽被提名的聽懂我的意思了對不對我當然充分了解您意思中選會公告之後三個月目前新的法律規定是這樣子"},{"start":5906.4,"end":5935.477,"text":"對啊所以他只要在下個會期立法院只要有人惡意要操作這個題目我們立法院真的就可以提出一個公投提案然後逼你們中選會表態你們要不要支持這個公投提案讓他走入公投然後年底的時候就公投綁大選我們沒辦法處理政治問題中選會處理行務問題那所以我剛剛說嘛好那假設回到人民我剛剛的意思就是說我陳培餘的戶籍如果在花蓮我就回去花蓮投九合一可是我公投的題目我就把它移轉到台北我住的地方"},{"start":5935.882,"end":5958.645,"text":"那最後我創造一個輿論跟氛圍就是是你們中選會害我不得不拋棄其中一種選票因為就是在去年藍白惡意主導公投綁大選硬要這樣通過所以我認為更多的惡意操作都是有可能的那我基於一個負責任的民意代表我認為我有需要跟被提名先討論這個問題當然相關的惡意的做法可能不是"},{"start":5959.065,"end":5977.607,"text":"在您的想像當中但是我現在就先提出這個疑問當然我相信後續的很多討論跟配套假設在事件發生之後真的要拜託你們假設你們都能夠成功通過被提名然後成為中選會的委員當然這就是你們要頭痛的事情但我想我身為一個民主的後輩過去看您非常多民主的成就"},{"start":5977.947,"end":6000.545,"text":"我必須要在這裡跟您報告過去這兩年來在這一屆立法院確實就很有可能有相關惡意的操作那甚至有相關的支持者就予以配合他真的就會出現我的公投票在台北而我的九合一回到花蓮然後我就說是你們中選會害我只能投其中一種票以上這是我給您的建議好 我們會留意這方面的情況好 謝謝"},{"start":6002.891,"end":6014.934,"text":"謝謝我們感謝陳培宇執行我們現在吳石瑤立委執行謝謝主席辛苦了有請我們有備提名人現在有備提名人"},{"start":6030.526,"end":6032.708,"text":"我想我破題非常清楚當政治越紛擾的時候"},{"start":6049.464,"end":6078.306,"text":"中選會的選務就要越公正超越黨派而且要守憲合法這是每一個從政人員我想未來大家有機會如果通過同意權我們在宣誓的時候的誓詞就是於誓以至誠恪遵憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使職權所以超越黨派跟守憲合法是重要的下一頁"},{"start":6080.321,"end":6097.775,"text":"我這邊列出來私藥自己認為的成功的選務的三要素他當然要是公正的他也是要效率的他更要能夠變明這是選務成功的三要素我也認為中選會的委員的四個要件獨立行使職權"},{"start":6099.116,"end":6128.102,"text":"基於專業而且要能夠公正更要首先合法我的選務三要素跟中選會委員的四要件我們未來的這個主委提名人游老師應當都認可吧有沒有補充的完全認可好謝謝我要跟您報告思堯在努力的面向不談政治中選會有很多可以做得更好導入design thinking不曉得老師您對於design thinking有什麼樣的理解"},{"start":6130.72,"end":6157.111,"text":"Design Thinking沒關係 我來替您說明好了賈伯斯曾經說Design is not how it looksDesign is about how it works也就是Design Thinking不只是大家說設計美學事實上它是以使用者為切入點讓整個事情更有效率而且可以解決問題"},{"start":6158.669,"end":6175.842,"text":"所以我曾經因為台灣設計研究院是思堯在任內催生的一個新設的國家的組織透過設計的導入來攪動我們的公共政策也提升公共服務的效能跟品質所以設計院成立之後我們去跟很多部會敲敲門"},{"start":6177.063,"end":6191.602,"text":"我也帶著設計院去向前主委李敬勇先生敲敲門希望能夠導入Design Thinking讓我們的選務更進步更親民更有效率所以這是我當時2021年拜訪李前主委的時候來下一頁"},{"start":6193.106,"end":6222.486,"text":"而我們改變了什麼我希望未來的中選會的委員們都能夠持續來推動吳思瑤催生中選會CES設計院投入我們改革了選舉的很多的更進步更變明也更美學的這些做法第一個在投票動線的優化左邊是before右邊是after他更讓大家在有限的空間的移動更有效率就是design的導入"},{"start":6223.786,"end":6248.002,"text":"他在選舉公報的優化上 過去很多人說選舉公報要這麼細膩 排版就是非常的unfriendly所以我們找了設計師design thinking以後after是在後面非常清楚讓大家可以一覽所有候選人他的政見相關的學經歷這是設計導入的正向成果 下一頁"},{"start":6249.636,"end":6268.284,"text":"設計導入呢還包括這些標識系統的革新越美越清晰不會永遠都是標凱體不要永遠是中華民國美學而這樣的選舉美學我們獲得世界級的Good Design設計獎獲得亞洲最具影響力的設計獎"},{"start":6269.444,"end":6274.126,"text":"也獲得台灣的經典設計獎所以我希望未來的委員們都能夠持續的來優化這些design thinking導入我們的選務下一頁當然還包括 圈選票處我們真的也讓它更簡潔 更俐落 更好看而不是數十年如一日我們小時候真的投票就是這樣到現在立法院自己的圈選票處還是長一樣"},{"start":6294.796,"end":6308.22,"text":"是可以革新的我想先就這個正面的分享給大家我想主委大家應當都可以如果後續需要思堯很樂意再串聯設計界跟中選會合作主委未來的主委OK嗎我非常的"},{"start":6314.122,"end":6339.323,"text":"因為司法委員剛剛有繞英文我覺得這個就是中選會未來需要的中選會未來需要我是一個進步改革主義者所以任何能夠進步能夠改革的都是好的事情選舉更有效率選舉更美學選舉更變明然後大家對於選舉去投開票所的心情可能也好起來很好"},{"start":6341.304,"end":6365.775,"text":"讓我再講一句我沒有想到我在今天來立法院可以看到這些新的觀念我簡直是Unbelievable所以立法院是有認真問政優質進步的立委而不是只有毀憲亂政的黨團很好下一頁當然不在即投票是今天的重點我剛剛講的選舉的三要素"},{"start":6366.195,"end":6380.567,"text":"公正效率跟便民提案的民眾黨團顯然只著重在降低選民投票成成本的那個便民的思考但是對於公正性跟選舉的效率他會造成選務的混亂甚至影響秘密投票甚至"},{"start":6381.247,"end":6404.083,"text":"也或多或少有境外借選風險增高的疑慮產生對於整個投票民主制度的信任危機所以呢絕對不能先求有再求好我們都支持行政院的版本您剛剛也說公投先行嘛好這是我們共同立場我們希望未來大家一起來捍衛這樣子的做法下一頁而以"},{"start":6404.895,"end":6425.486,"text":"我們行政院去徵詢了這些執行者選務機關的代表對於不在籍投票欠缺配套的狀況之下是all say no21縣市認為現在可以上路的是0個縣市甚至連民眾黨提案黨團他們自己執政的新竹市也認為不可能"},{"start":6427.907,"end":6436.814,"text":"所以呢過半的縣市也都支持行政院的版本公投先行我希望我今天要多花一點時間為什麼要跟主席多爭取一點時間因為民眾黨團的不在即投票他們就是這一屆立法院的壞習慣近乎二讀啊"},{"start":6444.841,"end":6463.439,"text":"委員會沒有討論啊直接不翼而決啊很有可能這週搞不好禮拜五又拿出來表決了所以今天有這個機會跟大家討論我就是希望能夠把這些數據告訴國人告訴社會台灣沒有一個縣市的選務機關認為不在即投票現在可以上路"},{"start":6463.979,"end":6490.61,"text":"NO所以我們就要審慎公投先行是多數的共識下頁而我們以投票意願這是我做的其實台灣的選舉投票率都是七成以上對於這些已經有不在籍投票有不同的可能是電子郵票可能是境外投票不同的行使的這些不在籍投票的國家台灣的投票率都是高的"},{"start":6491.11,"end":6509.685,"text":"除了南韓 南韓有他這一次總統大選不同的政治社會經濟的背景所以說不再投票並不是等同於高投票意願的這個思維我要在這裡論述 在下一頁更重要的是 未來這是大家的事情我們要辦一個讓人民滿意的選舉"},{"start":6511.072,"end":6519.34,"text":"而你看看台灣目前選務的滿意度2024年總統立委選舉84%的人民滿意給各縣市的選委會跟中選會拍拍手2022地方選舉滿意度83.2%2020總統立委選舉滿意度86.9%唯一一次就是剛剛未來的這個主委候選人說的"},{"start":6537.396,"end":6557.089,"text":"災難的2018的那一次公投房大學滿意度是28不滿意度高達68.6%這更要讓我們看到人民的聲音好我跳到我最後一個主題好嗎對不起因為有民調專家我還是想問一下這一題主委"},{"start":6558.792,"end":6566.754,"text":"我一直叫您主委他未來的主委你認為在台灣中共競選境外勢力競選的嚴重嗎有這麼難回答嗎我坦白講作為一個嚴謹的政治學者來講我要回答的是說感覺上很嚴重"},{"start":6586.178,"end":6598.011,"text":"事實上政府沒有找到非常多的證據來證明它很嚴重所以我覺得我們應該審慎地去評估這件事情因為主席站起來證據在這裡 證據在這裡看清楚"},{"start":6602.446,"end":6618.943,"text":"法務部公布中國借選的手段境外資金的借選網路選舉的賭盤跟認知作戰假訊息的操作2024年被偵辦的依反滲透法的案件境外勢力借選117件287人這個不是證據嗎 主委 下一頁"},{"start":6626.317,"end":6639.833,"text":"而國民黨黨主席的選舉是自己自家的人跳出來批評的我就不再贅述了中國的借選變本加厲我們就是要欲提從寬料敵從嚴下一頁"},{"start":6643.735,"end":6659.098,"text":"各國都有韓國加拿大澳洲美國印度甚至在美國這種民主的國家中國可以利用製造假駕照的方式大量的協助中國的僑民去投票假駕照的方式"},{"start":6659.739,"end":6686.695,"text":"所以世界各國面對中國的借選都在進行ING的防範主委 我們不要掩耳盜鈴您是民調專家 我問您一個專業的問題現在都有民調禁制期在選舉前公布的日期您覺得現在是幾天 您知道嗎10天您認為如果要調整 同意嗎未嘗不可"},{"start":6687.675,"end":6704.173,"text":"未嘗不可 那調整到幾天是可以接受的幾天好您的我尊重 台灣是民主社會現在國民黨立委要調變三天啦太危險啦 太危險啦我們回到前一頁"},{"start":6705.868,"end":6720.12,"text":"我們看看喔中國受益記者與退休教授捏造9次不實民調遭判刑司法判刑張顯耀先生涉嫌受中國指示發布講民調介入選舉遭起訴這都是司法偵辦換言之為什麼66%民主國家有選舉的民調"},{"start":6723.123,"end":6723.343,"text":"太短"},{"start":6747.498,"end":6770.254,"text":"太短嗎所以就專業論專業我覺得我們今天做一個非常好的示範沒有政黨立場我們超越黨派就專業論專業我們期待每一個委員都是獨立的專業的首先合法的以及能夠公正行使職權的最後一個提醒您提醒主席拍謝下一頁公投的那個這一個"},{"start":6773.496,"end":6779.772,"text":"國民黨提出修公統法要用公民覆決來推翻憲判主委你認為呢"},{"start":6781.392,"end":6809.717,"text":"這會是一個高度爭議性的問題所以我剛剛說中學會委員要守憲合法不問黨派守憲合法是基本的底線憲法78條司法院統一解釋憲法之權憲法訴訟法38條所有的憲法判決人民各機關都要服從而人民就包括公投行使的這些主體人民釋字185號也說明了不容挑戰用任何方式來推翻憲判"},{"start":6810.237,"end":6835.906,"text":"公投法第二條也規定公投的實施要遵循憲法的規定我要提醒大家未來的立法院一再的毀憲亂政要用公投法的修正來凌駕憲法未來這個難題可能會落在各位委員你們在審查公投案的當下我要提醒不看黨派不看顏色守憲合法是我們每一個人宣誓就職"},{"start":6838.7,"end":6847.929,"text":"的誓詞請大家謹記在心好謝謝游老師我今天多次稱呼您主委不好意思僭越了被提名人游盈隆先生我們一起加油謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳思堯委員質詢我們請黃建斌召委質詢抱歉讓你等很久謝謝"},{"start":6869.185,"end":6878.691,"text":"好 謝謝召委 主席我們先有請我們貝提名人游盈隆先生上台貝提名人游教授"},{"start":6882.697,"end":6898.354,"text":"老師好黃委員好老師好 老師因為目前還在這個人事審查階段嘛所以本席就先稱呼為有董事長其實我相信台灣的民眾對你都不陌生你過去擔任過民進黨副秘書長還有海基會副董事長那在政壇的"},{"start":6900.052,"end":6920.889,"text":"經歷非常豐富是我們的大前輩後來擔任台灣民意基金會董事長也經常發布民調跟時事的評論很多見解其實常常引起回響像是去年民進黨發動主導大罷免結果大失敗的時候你就非常直率的說大罷免是惡意的在排除在野黨"},{"start":6922.977,"end":6941.162,"text":"但是它不會被選民所接受然後你更直接的批評說民進黨推動大罷免毫無正當性那可以說是民主之詞那本是要對於你雖然出身民進黨但卻有足夠的勇氣來說出民眾的心聲並且給予我們執政者中肯的這個建議這件事情我們想要你格鬥的這個困難"},{"start":6942.322,"end":6967.967,"text":"那尤其身為現在身為中選會主委的這個被提名人擔任這樣的角色就是必須要能夠超越黨派然後克尊中立那帶領我們中選會發揮本來應該要發揮這個超然獨一的這個功能因為在過去我們中選會的中都被人家下面加一個新被批評是中心的中這個很一樣他不是中於人民是中於執政黨所以"},{"start":6969.071,"end":6983.864,"text":"舉例來說在大罷免期間很多立委辦公室都發韓文去中選會希望能夠提供一些相關的資料那中選會都用行政流程的理由然後一拖再拖就有這些不願意給立委提供給立委的這些資料"},{"start":6984.685,"end":7008.041,"text":"甚至都還沒有經過中選會的這個會議的審議通過就霸團跟這些媒體都有辦法先拿到然後接下來就是在網路上公開然後帶風向那發生這樣的情況就是相對是非常明顯有違反這個中選會這個有違反這個行政中立甚至有泄密這個嫌疑那這也是為什麼中選會長期以來形象一直不好的這個原因之一就是因為他雙標讓他認為他雙標沒有"},{"start":7010.822,"end":7034.471,"text":"做到這個客手超然獨立這個立場因此本席也希望說如果未來老師有順利成為中選會的主委一定要無往出眾那秉持客觀中立勇於對執政者提出建議說真話甚至批評的這個勇氣這是我們大家符合大家對你原本的這些期待那接下來本席要針對溫泉中有關於不在籍投票的議題來跟您討論"},{"start":7035.356,"end":7057.242,"text":"就是你在問卷中的回應是說不在即投票涉及憲法保障人民參政權擴大政治參與意義重大你舉雙手贊成這點本席給予肯定因為你的態度非常清楚明確就是說當你也聽到說不在即投票當然還有許多行政跟技術上的問題需要來克服那"},{"start":7058.777,"end":7082.93,"text":"這個但是問題是身為選務機關的選務主管機關應該要站在守護人民投票權當出發點那努力去解決問題克服困體才對所以因此本席也希望說如果老師你就任主委的時候能夠更進一步積極的來推動不在籍投票特別是針對這個偏鄉還有原住民地區來優先實行那為什麼本席會這樣講因為"},{"start":7084.574,"end":7101.843,"text":"我來住台東 台東就是一個偏鄉我們很多人都在外面工作 求學 很多的原因所以在每次要回去投票要花很多的成本這成本不只是交通上的成本 包括時間上的成本跟主委分享一下 像台北到台東坐火車四個小時"},{"start":7102.663,"end":7119.864,"text":"那到台東市 你要到其他的鄉鎮可能還要一到兩個小時的時間他可能投票就要花一天的時間這個是都會區沒有辦法想像你可能早上出去投票三十分鐘 人家知道有什麼事情在外面講話要花一天的時間這是偏鄉很大很大的投票上的困難那像我們2024年的總統大選"},{"start":7121.909,"end":7148.752,"text":"的投票率我們全台東縣是62%相較全國平均是72%我們才有10%因為先本市才太廣所以會影響到人民投票的意願這是本市支持不再投票最主要原因那希望我們在外工作這些台東的子弟或讀書的學子能夠也能夠享有跟其他人一樣投票的權利不會因為距離影響了投票的意願最後我也要再呼籲一下游董事長就是說"},{"start":7149.272,"end":7172.529,"text":"如果未來立法院審核通過你擔任中選委的主委我想也請你務必要保持過去一直保持的這個客觀中立勇於對執政者提出健眼的這個勇氣並持續地推動不再急投票落實憲法賦予人民的平等參政權也守護我們偏鄉民眾投票的權益謝謝博文請問董事長是不是可以來做到"},{"start":7173.469,"end":7196.17,"text":"當然 我覺得我剛剛已經講了不在即投票是世界的潮流 社會也高度關注身為一個政治學者也好 或者是一個知識分子也好我舉雙手贊成 但是我們還是要非常謹慎面對讓它循序漸進 不要追求一步到位否則會帶來很大的災難"},{"start":7197.857,"end":7215.906,"text":"對我們一起來努力啦 這可是真的 剛才剛才講的那些感受的地方我們剛才譬如要放鬆幾年那可能真的大家沒辦法 可是我也發電量所以我充分了解謝謝主委很正面的答覆 那我們一起加油那謝謝謝謝我們的備體兵人 謝謝召委 謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃建斌召委質詢我們請蘇巧"},{"start":7232.392,"end":7238.257,"text":"書面喔 好來 蘇巧惠 蘇巧惠不在 我們這裡有提名有委員抱歉 我想說我們的夢幻學生沒有看好 召委 我們議會同仁 請我們中選會被提名的人我們的主委我們的游老師 游教授"},{"start":7261.781,"end":7280.467,"text":"首先恭喜你啦被提名人但是我發早上很多人的爭議還是未來在網路上的假訊息包含不再去投票這是未來你當主委你要去推動要去承擔因為過去的九二一"},{"start":7282.681,"end":7298.868,"text":"過去的九合一上上界就是一個亂象那亂象的話你當一個主委你整個選舉的步調以及規劃都要很妥善現在整個中選會在這幾年"},{"start":7300.929,"end":7327.8,"text":"其實我們中選會我也是很肯定因為這幾年真的改變很多 國民黨的心目中真的有徹底改變但是未來不再去投票這是還要好好的去規劃還有在網路以境外的那個假訊息的問題假訊息的問題我認為主委你應該是一個學者出身應該對這個問題 你要怎麼去"},{"start":7330.519,"end":7354.725,"text":"第一時間你要怎樣去耗資怎樣去開發怎樣去下架這是未來你要做的是不是主委這一點你來做說明好不好謝謝吳委員的指教假訊息特別是在網路的時代的新奇是所有民主國家必須面對的巨大的挑戰"},{"start":7356.024,"end":7383.024,"text":"怎麼樣在假訊息衝刺之下能夠維持選務的公正性能夠讓所有的候選人還有選民都能夠獲得最好的保障這是中選會或是任何國家的選務單位必須面對的問題所以未來如果針對這個部分來說我相信中選會同仁"},{"start":7385.456,"end":7395.457,"text":"這方面經驗是非常豐富但是我們面對的是一個瞬息萬變的世界尤其是AI的時代所以"},{"start":7397.045,"end":7422.823,"text":"中選會怎麼樣能夠去面對這個問題中選會自己要有所節目但同時中選會是一個行政單位也需要立法院的強力的支持給予他 賦予他能力 賦予他資源讓他能夠應付這一個高度複雜而且充滿不確定性的年代"},{"start":7425.655,"end":7445.539,"text":"我們主委我們提名人真的你說這樣回答因為早過去中選會每次的選舉大多都是有一些網路的誤導以及境外的私立介入但是那時候很多都是反應中選會但是中選會還是沒作為"},{"start":7448.598,"end":7475.435,"text":"等到要有作為已經選舉完了這對候選人是非常的不公平所以這一點我要拜託我們未來的諸位這點一定要記著雖然是說我們要確保每一個好選人他們的反應例如說第一時間的反應我們都要立即的去處理這樣不做好選人他受到這真的是不公平啦"},{"start":7476.878,"end":7504.243,"text":"這一點 我再請教你 你說不在一起投票這一點 我聽剛才建平委員在執行你也是以我舉雙手贊成嘛那未來實施的時效是什麼時候目前中山會建議是這樣就是說從公民投票開始實施"},{"start":7506.408,"end":7531.953,"text":"從單一的全國性公民投票開始實施之後逐步地累積這方面的不在籍投票的相關的經驗降低它的弊端然後一步一步地推進到全國性的選舉包括總統 立委 甚至到地方的選舉這是需要一個過程 一段時間"},{"start":7532.933,"end":7548.591,"text":"不是立刻就去做事實上中選會也沒辦法決定我們立刻就去做中選會還是要遵循立法院制定的法律然後我們才能夠去依法行政但是中選會"},{"start":7550.252,"end":7573.561,"text":"秉持選務機關的立場也有責任和義務提供給立法院最充分的資訊這個可能面對的困難是什麼問題是什麼我們的建議是什麼我想這是中選會應該去做而且能做的好 謝謝我們當然啦我們中選會大家都期待嘛要有作為嘛"},{"start":7574.802,"end":7584.648,"text":"這是大家共同的期待以及目標吧好 謝謝 請委員那我請行政院秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":7591.687,"end":7597.131,"text":"委員長 委員長 現在全國 因為我看我們的媒體在報導我們的沙石的問題廢棄物的問題 現在是非常的嚴重所以說在這個部分 應該是我們在中央要跟地方政府來做協調"},{"start":7613.406,"end":7625.563,"text":"包含說每一管區 他們都可以說設置一個掩埋場或是你說停台北港 就是說每一個地方也不要說讓砂石運到各縣市 這樣說變成一個"},{"start":7628.696,"end":7656.747,"text":"流竄又是一個亂道的問題所以說這個博文因為現在大家都反映說都是中央規定什麼都推給中央這對我們中央非常的不公平所以我認為行政院應該找地方政府大家來設置要怎樣來處理包含我們的填海照路包含我們的港口"},{"start":7657.652,"end":7674.586,"text":"港口旁邊很多要有我們的後櫃一些大型的工業區這都可以來推動委員跟召委可以給我差不多三分鐘來報告跟說明好不好這三小時的事情可以分三方面來跟大家報告"},{"start":7675.669,"end":7701.155,"text":"GPS的部分啦 現在中央的政策是你可以用中央無關系來進步或是環境部的GPS這可以進入 第二有很多地方原本就有用GPS 無關系手機或是車機都可以進入 我們用GPS雙軌制的方式讓能夠載運沙石土方的車子能夠上路去載 這第一部分第二部分剛才委員在追尋的"},{"start":7703.575,"end":7711.761,"text":"戰智場的部分 現在中央加密集在跟地方開會在協調 中央會找從北到南八個戰智場"},{"start":7713.533,"end":7737.822,"text":"包括台北港 台中港 漳濱工業區台南有一部分那高雄這邊也有這個南興計畫的土地我們中央找八個站置場希望地方也能夠進來這個協助管理車可以走 也是有地方可以走這是第二部分第三個部分是就簡正便民的部分以前是這個"},{"start":7741.656,"end":7754.969,"text":"土方出來 要先經過土資廠再到最終處置廠但是土方有些依照法規 也是有加料現在可以從這個出廠直接到最終處理廠又或者是在台中經過分析70%的部分是可以"},{"start":7758.172,"end":7786.225,"text":"賣掉的也能夠就地來做合法的交易我們從這三個面向來做還需要一些時間中央可以跟地方做的合作公共工程也好各種私人的工程也好能夠在合乎法律的規定之下讓土方的全流向的管制穩健的上路還需要一點時間中央地方會合作政府民間也會一起合作依從委員報告"},{"start":7788.146,"end":7811.083,"text":"好 謝謝你說一些可再利用的這種的大家都不要說一味的全部都規定的實施的這樣我就去解決他們的問題不然現在很多你說每次我們都會去都在推動建設包括公共工程甚至也是土方沒有武器處這一點就是他們都來帶我們陳情所以說我今天你 秘書長你有來特別幫你提起"},{"start":7817.262,"end":7838.015,"text":"好 謝謝有什麼歡迎再麻煩委員跟行政院來講我們會繼續拍片 謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳祁銘在這裡要讓我們的秘書長說那刷牌也要刷牌更加到位 更加關心 更加了解因為這個萬事失去 真的很不好來 我們請劉淑萍委員質詢"},{"start":7849.241,"end":7858.113,"text":"好謝謝主席我現在請被提名人主委被提名的游盈隆教授游教授"},{"start":7866.1,"end":7890.239,"text":"郭教授您好您不只是政治學者你本身也曾經當過陸委會的副主委對於兩岸關係的法律體系還有國家忠誠的問題應該都有非常的了解我今天想要請教的一個制度性的矛盾就是陸籍配偶在台灣的戶籍滿了10年之後"},{"start":7891.44,"end":7918.63,"text":"依照兩岸人民關係條例呢他是可以參政的並且呢他也是經過中選會審查了具備了一個候選資格那另外呢但是我們看到是在國籍法依照20條呢他當選後呢在他的就任前或是一年之內呢必須提出放棄中國國籍的證明或是依照其他的法律規定來辦理否則就撤銷資格了那內政部長劉世芳呢他也主張可以參選但就任前"},{"start":7921.611,"end":7925.896,"text":"再用國籍法來去檢驗他的忠誠我認為有三個問題第一個是法律適用的問題兩岸人民關係條例是個特別法在跟國籍法發生衝突時是否應該優先適用呢那內政部 劉部長的說法是否已經有擴張裁量權"},{"start":7941.091,"end":7969.83,"text":"異越法律授權的這個問題那我先把問題說完那請這個被提名人游教授你就等一下再一起回應就我時間有限第二個問題就是參政公平性的問題那一個人可以參選後來當選但是最後是要高度仰賴對岸去要去出具這個文件然後才會被撤銷可是事實上這中共不會發的那是否會侵害到他的是陸配的一個憲法平等保障的這個參政權"},{"start":7971.171,"end":7998.713,"text":"那第三個就是說國家終審如何制度化這是民進黨非常重視的這個問題那終審應該的審核是在選前明確可預期的法律要求之下但是還是說他還會依據選後補件那如果拿不出來就撤銷那因此就想說如果要在最後的這個在這個相關的法律還沒有整合之前你是否認為就終選會應該主動的面對這樣一個法律衝突請劉教授回答 謝謝"},{"start":8000.996,"end":8025.23,"text":"這的確是一個非常棘手的問題對中選會來講一方面來講 站在保障參政權的立場這個中選會會樂見所有的國民的參政權都被完整的保障但是兩岸關係是高度的複雜"},{"start":8027.581,"end":8054.99,"text":"相關的法例到目前為止也沒有就這一點有非常完備清楚的立法所以在這種情況底下就留下了一個模糊的空間這個空間內政部有內政部的主張中選會在這上面幾乎沒有去主張什麼的這樣的一個立場"},{"start":8057.076,"end":8064.139,"text":"但主觀上您作為一個學者作為一個學者我覺得兩岸是一個高度複雜的問題我覺得這個目前這樣的一個問題"},{"start":8070.379,"end":8086.789,"text":"你就是侵犯他的公平參政權嗎這是好幾個價值牽扯在這裡面所以即便是在過去多年以來有國民黨執政時代有民進黨執政時代但通通沒有去根本解決這個問題所以這問題遺留下來這問題坦白講對中選會來講要交給中選會去處理這個是中選會沒這個能力"},{"start":8099.051,"end":8115.258,"text":"所以你們未來就是草獨立機關就不處理了是嗎不知道 我的意思是說那這個部分你應該是行政院這個可能秘書長要去回應那我現在問的一個問題更重要的是那特別法跟普通法的這個問題適用你應該怎麼看法呢"},{"start":8117.867,"end":8140.831,"text":"根據法律學當然我們在座有很多法律專家特別法是優於普通法所以兩岸人民關係條例但是這兩者因為兩岸關係高度的複雜牽扯著非常複雜的歷史的因果這裡面可能會衍生很多很多的問題就選務機關來講選務機關並沒有這種職權去做這個讓"},{"start":8147.829,"end":8168.575,"text":"所有的人滿意的這樣的處理我知道被提名人劉教授你就是現在在一個審查期間這個問題應該是民進黨非常care的問題的那的確也是有它的複雜性但是這個比較全國的人民包括學者專家必須好好去針對這個問題去好好去針對大家的部分要知道它的公平性"},{"start":8170.595,"end":8198.971,"text":"還有再一個問題在於說我們看到的是國內移轉投票的問題國內移轉投票涉及到的是又是一個價值非常重要的涉及到公平的平等權跟自由跟秘密投票然後也涉及到國家的信任那我剛才也聽到是主委是不是您對於一般我們民眾黨是提出來是國內移轉投票請其他的政黨就是尤其是民進黨不要去特別的去汙名化國內的移轉投票那請我想要說那個被提名的你針對"},{"start":8200.454,"end":8204.486,"text":"這國內移轉投票的話 您的態度是支持還是怎麼樣我支持啊"},{"start":8205.37,"end":8229.74,"text":"我完全同意 但是我覺得不是一步到位沒錯 沒錯 我後面繼續問下去那這個部分我知道你也在你的這個對民眾黨的回應報告當中有提到說他必須按部就班因為涉及到國家信任的問題還有安全的這個秘密投票問題那你的意思是說從先從公投開始嘛對不對包括是從到選舉的到原住民的地方到中央是嗎"},{"start":8230.68,"end":8247.722,"text":"好那重點是相關的問題包括說我們就他的一個配套措施就是說他對於秘密投票有被破壞的問題還有對選票保管跟運送的問題那就這兩點你是不是夠可能如果你當中選會的主委你有沒有什麼後續的一個配套措施規劃或是想法初步的現在"},{"start":8248.683,"end":8270.539,"text":"我還沒有上任中選會主委啦不過我已經很努力的在了解相關的狀況我覺得技術上來講應該是可以處理啦否則這個像原住民的這個部分已經有了初步的大院也已經通過了相關的法律來解決這個問題我覺得"},{"start":8275.009,"end":8284.245,"text":"這個基本上是不會有大問題所以是基本上技術性沒有大問題是不是願意要不要做行政機關這部分要不要做的問題我想要講清楚的就是說"},{"start":8285.734,"end":8304.204,"text":"如果不在籍投票立刻就要實施在2026的這一次九合一地方選舉那是幾乎所有的人包括22個這個地方的選舉委員會就是各縣市六都都岐岐以為不可"},{"start":8304.944,"end":8330.412,"text":"所以應該要分階段然後實施之後能夠獲得社會的信心社會的信賴我們再來推展到選舉上面去所以大家可以預期如果您順利當選到中選會主委的話應該會提出中選會的版本半部就版了就實施可行性去進行嗎是我希望這樣子好 謝謝那另外最後一個問題這個主席先"},{"start":8333.014,"end":8351.49,"text":"包容一下好這地方就說您在您的民眾黨的回應的報告當中我提到說呢對於中選會對公投案的審查僅限法律明定要件不涉及到價值判斷不涉及到價值判斷那就是這部分嘛那請問是說如果是針對114年"},{"start":8354.113,"end":8381.015,"text":"在有送到中選會的就立法院的一個有公投案這樣子的案提到的中選會去做審查的時候這一個時候是針對說題目是您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決的政策呢這個立法院公投案假設您當時是一個中選會的主委您對於這樣子的一個案子是否能夠成案您的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":8382.376,"end":8395.759,"text":"我觉得那一个案子对中选会来说我事后了解中选会承受了空前巨大的压力要做出一个正确的决定是非常困难的"},{"start":8396.584,"end":8426.071,"text":"但是我們也要注意到中選會不是立法院提出了前部否決中選會也同意也處理了河山研議公投是的所以有一個通過一個不通過我相信上一屆的中選會委員會有他們的相當完整的思維但是主委被提名人我是問您的看法我是問您的看法"},{"start":8426.491,"end":8452.916,"text":"我的看法對 這個議題我覺得這是一個非常困難的問題您這樣狀況是 您的初步判斷因為這涉及到的是在程序上面這部分你是指的 劉委員我再把題目說一遍 您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一次決之政策那這個部分是讓民眾去決定"},{"start":8454.907,"end":8479.603,"text":"所以他如果過程當中的程序上面並沒有違反的話應該是讓民眾去決定公投的意思就是在這樣子沒錯 我充分了解你的意思而這正好也就是觸及了或凸顯了目前台灣司法審查權跟直接民選 直接民主之間的衝突"},{"start":8481.806,"end":8509.254,"text":"所以這個問題到目前為止還社會還不是完全了解但是我覺得社會可以廣泛的去討論是不是公民投票的結果不能抵觸憲判這是一個很嚴肅的憲政的問題我覺得社會可以去討論但是上一屆的這樣的一個裁決我現在也算半個當事人我不便表達意見"},{"start":8510.151,"end":8536.947,"text":"好 這樣好 謝謝至少我覺得這個被提名的劉教授您提出出來之後您知道在現在在審查期間包括也是你過去的在民進黨的黨員後來你退黨但是你就知道說你自己有一個這個學者的價值這個風範我是覺得已經建立起來就是有一個高度肯定但我希望說您如果被立法院同意的話你就繼續的在這個位置上面就是在跳脫到政治堅守到行政中立"},{"start":8537.347,"end":8565.251,"text":"然後也重建中選 各界對於中選會的這樣一個信任因為大家都覺得中選會那個中是中於執政黨的那個中然後也落實到法定選務然後保障人民的實質參與這對你的期許這一點請委員放心好 謝謝游盈隆就是游盈隆 不會改變好 我們期待大家一起有目共睹期待OK 謝謝謝謝 感謝劉淑檳委員質詢我們王宏威委員"},{"start":8572.011,"end":8577.399,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們被提名人游教授加油教授"},{"start":8583.083,"end":8604.505,"text":"好 游教授辛苦了我們委員好可以看到今天包含就是我們整個審查會裡面包含我們國民黨的委員對游教授也有相當多的肯定那我想請問一下因為游教授過去除了是政治學教授還有民調"},{"start":8605.426,"end":8633.022,"text":"那當然對於政治也有很多評論而且你過去長期當這個政府的烏鴉執政黨的烏鴉那譬如說在去年的大罷免的時候你有很多的評論你的評論是大罷免是台灣民主之恥而且你曾經痛批有兩大戰犯死不認錯就是包含民進黨黨團的柯建民總召還有沈伯陽委員"},{"start":8634.443,"end":8657.7,"text":"那你有提到就是大罷免是災難性的民主內戰那當然其實你的評論也不止於此所以你這一次在被提名的時候外界其實有很多人是驚訝的那甚至有一種說法是說你可能可以得到在野黨委員的票數但是民進黨內部很多人對你有意見"},{"start":8658.661,"end":8681.129,"text":"所以您認為在這一次的整個的提名的表決過程裡面你目前評估你可以得到民進黨全數的票數同意你嗎這部分我不敢去評估不敢評估 所以有可能會有人跑票"},{"start":8682.009,"end":8699.439,"text":"我不知道好 那另外請教一下因為我剛剛特別提到了一些大罷免在這個過程裡面很多人就開始談到一些我們法律跟一些制度上的問題在之前我們通過了就是在聯署要付身分證 銀本"},{"start":8700.885,"end":8716.759,"text":"民進黨政府有來提出復議但是呢並沒有拿去釋憲所以這個應該已經是可以確定的這個行政院也沒有拿去釋憲然後我想請問一下我們還有一個版本就是呢"},{"start":8717.299,"end":8738.212,"text":"加一版本就是你的被罷免票數要多過就是被罷免要多過你之前之前的當選的票數才能夠確定被罷免那我不曉得游教授你對於這一個的修法版本你個人的意見是什麼 你同意嗎謝謝委員 我的看法是這樣第一個"},{"start":8748.14,"end":8762.371,"text":"家父身份證這個是加嚴罷免權的刑事坦白講在某個程度上我是贊成的因為全世界各國國會議員是沒有什麼國會議員罷免制度的"},{"start":8767.813,"end":8786.053,"text":"沒錯啊所以就這個部分來講我純粹基於學者的立場我是覺得加嚴我是可以同意的那第二個就立委提罷免同意票需高於當選票我覺得這兩個不能夠相"},{"start":8787.722,"end":8797.087,"text":"不能夠不能相提並論對 不能相提並論所以你對於加1的版本你個人有疑慮"},{"start":8798.26,"end":8824.273,"text":"我覺得那個不合理好 你覺得不合理好 因為我們今天是審查必須把一些就是我們現在修法的過程要就教於你另外我看到你回答就是我們立法院各黨團的就是有關於罷免的部分我們在罷免的過程裡面有很多的不合理其中有關於是政治獻金因為我們自己是身為被罷免人"},{"start":8824.833,"end":8850.707,"text":"那因為我們是被監督的對象但是相對在政治獻金上就出現了一個極不平衡的狀態如果在選舉裡面不管是多少人參選每一個人都是受到政治獻金法的一個規範但是我們在這一次被罷免裡面其實整個的政治獻金是非常非常混亂的"},{"start":8852.729,"end":8873.566,"text":"我看到你的回答是說你也認為即便是罷免者包括領銜人也好或罷免團體他的政治獻金也應該受到一定的管理和規範所以我想請問你這個部分你要不要再講一下就是有關於政治獻金的規範你個人的看法是怎麼樣政治制度是嚴禁的"},{"start":8878.448,"end":8893.165,"text":"不是從一開始就完美無缺所以經過不斷的實踐實驗之後該修的是應該要修我個人的意見是被罷免"},{"start":8894.775,"end":8918.224,"text":"的人要受到政治獻金法的限制但是提罷免的人目前沒有任何的這方面的沒有任何規範所以我覺得未來是可以考慮修法雖然政治獻金法的主管機關並不是中選會但是這涉及了選務選舉跟罷免的公平性"},{"start":8918.924,"end":8942.193,"text":"的確 因為這樣所以我才表示意見好 所以你也認為這個應該修好 另外一個在這次罷免裡面有一個完全回憶於過去的做法這次中選會也被我們認為是極為不中立而且有政治辦案之嫌就是有關於在聯署告發聯署 錯假聯署的時間"},{"start":8946.114,"end":8957.197,"text":"過去事實上去年大罷免並不是第一次也不會是最後一次但是中選會過去歷次針對有關於罷免的錯假連署每一個包含韓國瑜 王浩宇 陳柏惟 黃婕 所有的"},{"start":8966.599,"end":8992.605,"text":"都是在投票之後然後去做告發每一個都是在投票之後去做告發唯有一次例外唯有一次例外就是在去年的大罷免大家可以看到去年大罷免整個去告發錯假連署然後去偵辦錯假連署大概都是史上這個最為激烈的一次那這中間就是跟中選會的告發時間有關"},{"start":8995.686,"end":9011.218,"text":"那到底這個告發時間應該是在聯署期間呢或者是在投票之後不要去影響最後的罷免結果其實應該要有一套制度的但是中選會當時就是完全違反過去的做法當然就被我們認為說這個是有政治辦案的嫌疑所以這個就是中選會的業務了"},{"start":9022.526,"end":9046.744,"text":"所以我想請問 我們主委被提名人如果你擔任主委 針對未來夾是有這個連署 錯假連署其實這個連署還不只是罷免 還有選舉也會有這個你是不是應該建立一套 一個可長可久的制度而不是隨著不同的情境而改變"},{"start":9049.793,"end":9066.523,"text":"對我來講這個時候要回答這個問題的確是困難的怎麼會困難我還是要回答這個問題這個一點都不困難吧我還是回答這個問題我自己也參選過所以我也知道其實選舉期間為了避免影響選舉"},{"start":9068.467,"end":9097.258,"text":"即便有嫌疑人涉嫌犯罪检调司法单位也都是事后侦办事前也有一些但是基本上不会这么做所以我不了解大坝棉去年实际的状况他们是怎么样做成决定我不了解那是一页沧桑史我觉得事后可以再去检讨改进"},{"start":9098.116,"end":9109.05,"text":"我特別指出這個這個其實完全是技術性的竊選完全是技術竊選有非常多種因為我時間到了不耽誤下面時間謝謝謝謝我們感謝王宏威委員資訊我們現在習新穎委員"},{"start":9124.636,"end":9129.988,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請這個主委被提名人請阿佑教授"},{"start":9137.951,"end":9155.406,"text":"这个我们游教授好那本席想请教您这个您应该知道现在AI时代的来临那AI的身为技术也已经成为全球民主的威胁了"},{"start":9156.207,"end":9183.176,"text":"那您被提名为这个中选会的主委所以今天本席的质询要为我们的民主宪政找到疫苗那我们台湾民主的选举绝对不能被破坏也不能被不信任台湾的民主如果被破坏那就不战而亡这点您认同吧完全赞同对 所以近年来AI深维技术您"},{"start":9184.617,"end":9203.694,"text":"這個是不是有所觀察或者是您的了解是如何現在全球民主都受到AI身為技術的威脅很多國家都發生過類似的案例您有沒有一些體會或觀察的心得當然有我覺得"},{"start":9204.875,"end":9218.896,"text":"AIA所帶來的新的時代假訊息的衝刺氾濫這是所有的民主國家必須要去面對的而且是一個挑戰也可能是一個噩夢但是應該要嚴正以待"},{"start":9221.007,"end":9237.232,"text":"对 那现在我们的选罢法的机制大部分是事后追究责任那没有办法挡住选前特别选前24小时 48小时的这种假讯息的洪水"},{"start":9238.012,"end":9267.01,"text":"针对这一块本系想请教您是否支持您如果就任中选会主委之后能够主动推动这个选罢法的修订应该要纳入一些预防性的条款例如强制要求一些平台他一定要标记标记我这个平台展现出来的影片或是照片图像他是AI生成的内容而且"},{"start":9267.91,"end":9295.658,"text":"也要賦予中選會針對經過鑑識是身為的影音或是圖像呢有權下令做緊急處置針對這一塊您的看法是我的看法是這樣中選會只是一個不到60個人的一個單位長期以來這個努力於顯霧的行政那對於這一個"},{"start":9298.639,"end":9315.652,"text":"當前這麼巨大的一個時代的巨變所衍生的這些問題恐怕不是中選會單獨可以承擔的當然…所以我本席第一個主要的是說你如果擔任主委你是不是你可以推動一些修法"},{"start":9316.472,"end":9339.066,"text":"有法依據法令那相關單位就可以來進行那你中選會是很重要辦選務必須要公平公正甚至你要讓整個的選舉過程合乎民主程序所以您是否會主動推動選罷法的修訂納入針對現在AI身為的一些預防性條款"},{"start":9339.85,"end":9354.423,"text":"我覺得這是義不容辭會嘛 對應該這麼做但是必須要建立在這個非常好的扎實的研究的基礎上面然後才能夠提出來"},{"start":9356.885,"end":9382.496,"text":"當然 但是現在很多實務上非常的需要剛剛您也已經有稍微提到就是說整個的修法如果只靠中選會可能會遇到相關部會互踢皮球我想您大概也有預期所以本席也想請教您上任之後如何確保您跟NCC速發部的一些實質的合作"},{"start":9384.439,"end":9411.067,"text":"我們主觀上當然是願意的就是很多事情事實上就是跨部會必須要去共同面對的那是否願意發起跨部會的這種專案小組那來制定一套可操作的這個預防機制而不能讓我們整個民主選舉民主制度的這個防護網呢最後被破壞在中選會的職權範圍內"},{"start":9413.283,"end":9428.344,"text":"該怎麼做就怎麼做而且要全力去做好 這個大原則方向很好那現在就是說您如果就任後整個的修法如果來不及可是"},{"start":9430.015,"end":9457.33,"text":"馬上選舉就到了這個AI的假訊息爆發怎麼辦那中選會會不會有一些行政備案譬如說透過行政命令要求平台在選舉期間加強審核以及跟事實查核中心進行24小時的熱線等等這些問題我猜您大概還沒想過據我知道這個中選會這方面已經有一套做法"},{"start":9458.371,"end":9466.908,"text":"就是说上次我们才质询我们的召委王召委也很认同的我不知道中选会送来了没"},{"start":9468.726,"end":9487.695,"text":"我不曉得中選會送來沒有我現在是被提名人對 沒關係那您就表達您的立場我覺得就這個部分來講所謂身為的這些照片這些影響它是直接影響到選民跟候選人所以"},{"start":9488.976,"end":9505.921,"text":"中選會能夠做的大概是怎麼樣在第一時間降低它的傷害而不是根本上解決這個假訊息的問題中選會要主動積極建立這個綠色通道讓這整個能夠不受影響因為那樣的一個問題的存在是"},{"start":9506.821,"end":9535.966,"text":"跨政黨的噩夢不是只有哪一個特定政黨對 我們不是為特定政黨這個選舉的公平公正很重要那主委 所以這個AI的偽造像洪水猛獸我們希望預防勝於治療那中選會一定要主動修法不然我們的民主會淪為科技戰場的犧牲品這一塊我們希望如果您能夠順利擔任主委的話這個部分一定要落實而且堅持住好不好"},{"start":9536.246,"end":9547.357,"text":"我們嚴正以待 嚴肅以待謝謝謝謝我們感謝習慶雲委員執行我們家葉研資委員麻煩請那個游教授游教授"},{"start":9566.704,"end":9590.549,"text":"右岩好右教授好 這樣跟右教授請教一下在我們選罷法裡面有規定如果要罷免的話要一年之後才能夠進行那你覺得當初選罷法會這樣子規定的原因是什麼為什麼不是立刻選完之後就可以搞罷免一定要一年後我猜想立法者大概也意識到不要讓當選完之後立刻面臨"},{"start":9592.193,"end":9611.123,"text":"當選人被罷免的情境不要說這個讓人家輸不起就搞罷免應該是這樣吧總是要讓人家做個一年看看做得好不好再決定要不要罷免但是在這個李靖勇前主委在這邊我也問過他一樣的問題他說沒有不可以"},{"start":9611.992,"end":9633.778,"text":"現在的法律是沒有不可以換句話說如果我選上了輸給我的人輸不起他可能覺得說在選舉過程當中有什麼失誤或他覺得他想要再拚翻盤的機會他在敗選的隔天他跟他的團隊就可以來搞罷免這個是我們現在法律規定就是這樣嗎您的看法"},{"start":9635.23,"end":9659.813,"text":"我看怎麼詮釋啦我覺得選舉結束之後如果有國民不滿選舉結果不滿當選人所以他會對他講出很多負面的話說要罷免等等等等那是屬於言論自由的範圍言論自由當然都尊重但是如果是由敗選的那一方或其政黨"},{"start":9660.794,"end":9681.628,"text":"在背後煽動發起的你覺得這有符合民主的常態嗎因為以目前的法律的規定事實上也是一年之後才能夠禁止罷免像中選會才能夠可是問題是輸的人他可以在輸的隔天就開始規劃 煽動然後搞大罷免"},{"start":9682.228,"end":9709.986,"text":"我們去年看到的狀況就是這樣雖然民進黨嘴巴不講是他們發動的但柯建民總召就很誠實嘛他在接受媒體訪問的時候就說在投票的隔天還是隔兩天就去找過賴總統啊這在他媒體訪問公開講的啊怎麼透過罷免去扭轉國會的席次嘛在我們那一區包括我們國民黨很多立委的選區都一樣啊發動罷免推動罷免最用力的就是輸的那一方嘛我那一區就是這樣啊"},{"start":9710.831,"end":9729.608,"text":"他的我在那個罷免說明會我有公開資料啊他輸給我的那個立委的服務處主任沒多久就成立了一個就加入一個這個罷免的社團在推動然後不然就是想要取而代之的民進黨的人主要在推動嘛那這是民主常態嗎你覺得是嗎"},{"start":9730.928,"end":9744.354,"text":"當然不是 這是政治問題啦對啊 那問題是法律規範不嚴謹或中選會的按住就會造成這樣反民主的狀況出現嘛所以如果說您當主委當然中選會是辦選務的機關但您也是洞見觀瞻啊"},{"start":9749.556,"end":9777.248,"text":"如果是您的話您覺得要怎麼去結合您的未來的職務讓這種反民主的狀況繼續發生我們只能夠依法行政就中選會的角度來講但是以我作為一個政治學者的角度來講我長期以來反對在國會議員的層次立委來存在一個罷免制度因為全世界先進民主國家沒有哪一個國家的國會議員"},{"start":9779.502,"end":9805.255,"text":"美國的聯邦參議員 眾議員當選之後面臨被罷免沒有的 制度上就不存在這種可能性但是台灣也許這個就是說在孫中山先生的思想底下然後去制定的選舉罷免創制復建那個那個是這樣子因為我們國家不可能沒有罷免因為走到這一步不可能沒有罷免但是"},{"start":9805.935,"end":9830.98,"text":"應該是怎麼去完善罷免的制度比如說現在因為罷免的門檻比較低它只要兩成五所以就會讓選輸的人覺得有機可乘怎麼透過大罷免去扭轉剛剛產生的民意這就是我覺得制度造成的漏洞但是大罷免結果其實對社會非常傷害像我們那一區就出現非常多的對立包括家庭"},{"start":9832.558,"end":9858.648,"text":"長輩跟子女之間也因為立場不一樣罷免的仇恨的煽動彼此不和甚至有女兒離開家庭都有我覺得這個是當初發動大罷免的人他可能沒有顧慮到那麼多但這絕對不會只是政治的問題這是整個社會的問題它會影響到整個社會因為我覺得這個事情是非常嚴重沒有正當性的罷免那時候罷免我的被推出來的領先人用了一個理由"},{"start":9859.699,"end":9868.583,"text":"2023年葉元之怎麼樣怎麼樣所以要罷免葉元之我2024才做立委就是說因為剛選完就要搞罷免他也找不出什麼理由他就是這樣隨便亂講這個就是罷免制度的漏洞"},{"start":9872.186,"end":9889.531,"text":"我們對未來的主委或是現在的游教授充滿了期待覺得到時候如果在一些法令的解釋 詮釋甚至改革上面希望說您可以更積極的去讓我們的台灣更民主 更健全我一定會這麼做好 謝謝"},{"start":9899.305,"end":9920.845,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝葉延之委員質詢在這被提名人游一龍先生之說明跟答詢已經結束了被提名人游一龍先生可以先離席"},{"start":9922.298,"end":9931.549,"text":"我們休息十分鐘繼續我們再來請胡博遠先生來審查謝謝大家大家辛苦了"},{"start":10558.82,"end":10567.602,"text":"我們現在繼續進行比提名人胡柏諺先生跟說明跟詢問請中選委員比提名人並為副主任委員胡柏諺先生說明謝謝"},{"start":10591.648,"end":10612.745,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位委員我是胡博焱很榮幸有這個機會受行政院的信任而被提名擔任這樣的職務的工作那我也希望這個是一個這幾年來我們都看到台灣其實不只是在立法院在每個地方政治的抗爭性都非常大我想"},{"start":10613.726,"end":10632.553,"text":"政治不是只有抗爭也有很多討論跟協調這件事情而我們其實這個委員會呢目前的七位提名人基本上來講來自各個不同的黨派其實以目前的地方選委會的態勢是一樣的那說實在的相比"},{"start":10633.086,"end":10659.767,"text":"我們內政委員會可能處理的像內政部的事情或是其他部會中選會是一個行政動能很小那嚴格來講處理的事情也比較單純但是雖然它是單純的但是這件事情其實處理不好就會動搖國本的這事情那但是呢中選會其實剛剛主委提名有提過說我們其實原而編制也不過才60個人就像地方選舉委員會也不過才200多個人"},{"start":10661.266,"end":10686.326,"text":"所以呢我們雖然有七個提名人但是大概只有主委跟副主委需要兩個值日生來負責擦黑板倒水的這樣的工作這個就由游老師跟我來擔任但是重要的是這七個人其實在未來在決定事情上面以及現在的四位委員在未來決定事情上面來講在這個委員會當中而言每個人的決定的份量是一樣的而且這也是體現這一個國家在處理選舉事務當中而言"},{"start":10690.209,"end":10701.315,"text":"各黨各派在處理事務當中都有應該要發言的地位而我們希望藉由這一次的審查可以讓我們國家可以走得更順利謝謝謝謝我們這裡電視台有他的詢問詢問質詢"},{"start":10721.006,"end":10743.355,"text":"謝謝主席我們請被提名人胡伯彥教授胡伯彥教授被提名人好我想剛剛你有說明就是這一次的話基本上是由各黨派來推薦也是我們進入到立法院將近兩年來第一次的人事審查"},{"start":10743.823,"end":10772.266,"text":"是由各黨派來推薦我們當然也希望說能夠有這樣一個好的結果那當然今天有幾個題目要就教於您那首先是在我們提問的一個問題當中針對中選會是否有權審查立法院的公投提案那您的書面回答得非常清楚就是依公投法第15條第二項立法院交付案件排除人民提案審核的程序"},{"start":10772.748,"end":10797.939,"text":"就法律解釋上應該沒有審查的適用你甚至說立法院交付本為政治決定在邏輯上不該由中選會進行合法的審查所以我在這邊請您先把你的立場講清楚你的意思是不是只要立法院三讀通過交付到中選會這樣的公投案其實中選會的角色就是依法辦理呢"},{"start":10798.618,"end":10814.724,"text":"我認為一件事情就是就這個法律條文解釋邏輯上面來講因為他排除了第九條到第十三條的適用所以在這個時候如果中選會審查必須要回到一件事情上面來講就像以前所講的就是請你間斷回答是不是一個政策是不是因為在您的報告裡面在這個選擇上面來講就會是如何而且不是只有這個條文因為我們還有防衛性公投"},{"start":10824.287,"end":10844.933,"text":"的問題就是如果這是您的回答嗎所以是不是就是應該遇到這個有立法院三路通過交付中選會的這樣的一個公投案中選會的角色就是依法辦理對是好那所以不能再用什麼非重大決策或是合法性把它擋下來是嗎"},{"start":10845.643,"end":10864.302,"text":"我認為這個問題的憲政問題應該是要由大法官來去解決那接下來也是我要請教您的就是您認為如果真的有憲政問題的話那您覺得中選會雖然是獨立行政的一個機關但認為行政權的一部分並非憲政機關所以憲政上的爭議"},{"start":10865.458,"end":10889.782,"text":"依照憲法應該交由大法官來處理這是您的回覆所以針對這個部分中選會它不是憲政的機關所以中選會如果過度介入只會讓選務複雜這也是您在回覆中提到的所以我要問得更直接一點就是中選會直接駁回公投案是不是嚴重的越權呢也僭越了大法官的職權"},{"start":10891.038,"end":10913.725,"text":"我其實在之前的研究報告有提出來一件事情是說中選會如果直接把人家駁回的話應該在法條裡面規範讓他立即可以去申請大官釋憲由大法官去解決所以中選會不可以駁回嗎我認為如果從我剛剛的研究報告立場上面來講從這個立場其實是可以讓他駁回但是後面接續的就是馬上"},{"start":10915.005,"end":10925.948,"text":"那個憲法解釋的問題可是中選會沒有權利嘛沒有權利駁回我們的公投案嘛如果照你剛剛的論點的話我們應該就是要辦理嘛那如果認為有問題的話再送交這個把憲政機關請申請釋憲的問題嘛對 所以這個部分的話就是好那其他機關是不是有辦法權利解釋違憲的問題"},{"start":10939.352,"end":10964.214,"text":"其他機關對行政機關可不可以解釋違憲的問題實際上來講每個行政機關基本上來講都是在依據憲法來做成決定對所以說好但是呢最終而言決定有沒有違憲的問題的時候就要變成是大法官對那所以說針對這個軍人加薪跟提高警校人員所得替代率的法律是否違憲其實應該不是行政院長說了算吧"},{"start":10965.034,"end":10983.286,"text":"應該是要申請這個大法官釋憲由大法官來決定那在還沒有宣判違憲之前是不是就是合乎憲法在您這個法律學者的這樣子一個我覺得這個憲政爭議而言應該要交由大法官來處理但是因為行政院認為他是違憲的違憲之前就是合乎憲法嗎"},{"start":10984.066,"end":11000.448,"text":"行政院認為它是違憲就像定出來的某些制度內立法院也有可能認為它是違憲的在你是法律學者的這樣子的一個立場你是不是針對這個部分就是只要還沒辦違憲之前就是合乎憲法只要還沒辦還沒有判違憲之前是不是就合乎憲法"},{"start":11001.277,"end":11007.305,"text":"跟委員報告就是每個行政機關他可能會認為他這個法條是違憲的所以最終他可能會去申請實現的去做主意的因為你在國會改革的審議階段你多次的公開批評在野黨的修法是違憲擴權可是當這個中選會駁回我們的公投的時候"},{"start":11019.58,"end":11043.856,"text":"你卻沉默了你卻沒有站出來講說這個部分依法的話是應該不該駁回應該要依法宣證所以我覺得站在這個立場的話我覺得被提名人你好像就是只有在監督在野黨不監督執政黨敢宣出來的就是表現了一個這個好像是側翼的行為而且你的書面也回答了就是中選會是違法但是你的沉默卻證明了你也不敢得罪民進黨所以當有這樣的一個狀況的時候"},{"start":11045.936,"end":11052.514,"text":"我們要 你要如何說服我們這些被審 這個審查委員你未來能夠超然獨立的行使你的職權"},{"start":11053.615,"end":11080.988,"text":"我在2015年的時候我就說我要跟蔡英文劃清界限了這件事情其實報紙都有報導過這次的審查我想你要說服的是這一次被審查的委員他們的想法那另外一點呢就是我們在第一題就有提到的就是有關公投綁大選如何順利的進行那您的回答是說只要把場地租大一點分流做好工作人員增加然後提高行政效率"},{"start":11081.928,"end":11107.307,"text":"亂象 107年的亂象就不會重演這是您這是您回覆的是嗎那你這樣是不是就在說明了就民進黨這幾年說公投這個107年的公投綁大選選務亂是因為這個因為公投綁大選的關係所以你現在就是在證明說當時民進黨這幾年的說法純粹就是為了政治算計而做這樣子的說謊的一個行為嗎"},{"start":11108.928,"end":11132.542,"text":"107年確實當初2018年確實公投榜大選的那一天大選日的混亂狀況這個大家都看得出來是因為選務沒有規劃好嗎所以你才會提出來說接下來你就可以把選務怎麼規劃好所以你剛回答是這樣嗎但是那一天確實就是有十個十個公投案那就是因為表示你的人力還不夠嗎你分流沒有做好嗎這是你在回答中"},{"start":11132.922,"end":11145.873,"text":"可以解決的問題的方式所以說我們這邊是不是也就代表說以前上一次的2018年的公投中選會沒有辦好是因為人的問題是因為人無能而不是因為並大選"},{"start":11148.075,"end":11171.043,"text":"所以你在回答問題我覺得在2018年確實選務工作做得不完善所以說是因為這樣所以這幾年民進黨一直在講說公投綁大選造成選務的混亂其實不是因為公投綁大選事實上是真正能夠展現民意真正讓每個民眾能夠有機會去表達他自己的意志的時間所以我想您在這個整個回覆中也已經"},{"start":11172.271,"end":11200.933,"text":"已經這樣子充分的回答了說您針對公投綁大選覺得這個選務的部分其實的亂象不是因為綁大選而是因為行政座有沒有做好嗎是這樣嗎因為其他國家有些國家確實是沒有綁大選那我認為說如果真的要綁大選我們就必須要把選務工作處理做正因為在你問題的一些言論跟立場事實上你是反對公投綁大選的那當然今天我在研究報告是寫我支持"},{"start":11201.873,"end":11218.841,"text":"對 你在你的 但是你看喔你在這個自由時報的這個對 專欄裡面我寫你是這個空頭綁大選只會毀了公投本質喔這是你以前的說法 對那我們希望說不要因為今天是未來來擔任副主委所以你就改變你過去的說法到底我們要相信哪一個你"},{"start":11219.241,"end":11237.435,"text":"是同意公投綁大選的你還是反對公投綁大選委員因為我們現在法條已經改了我們未來就是要因應一件事情就是要綁大選我們要預防的一件事情就是2018年的那個狀況出現希望您不要是因為為了要擔任這個副主委這個職務而去出賣您原來的一個這個"},{"start":11238.796,"end":11250.606,"text":"自己的一個學術的一個良知還是希望您能夠如果未來您有幸能夠擔任副主委的話一定要秉持公正 超然獨立的立場來行使職權謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝徐益臻委員質詢我們現在有時間要委員質詢"},{"start":11272.05,"end":11299.547,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們被提名人副主委被提名人胡老師胡教授教授首先我想要先分享喔有一個就是被歐巴馬總統任命的第一位女性的這個司法部長哈佛的第一位的女性院長叫做Elena Kagan2010年歐巴馬提名她那這位美國的女性大法官他有一句名言"},{"start":11300.339,"end":11321.068,"text":"我觉得想要分享给大家也许胡教授您也非常的了解这句名言呢他说my politics would be must be have to becompletely separatefrom my judgment意思是我有我个人的政治意识的形态我有我个人的政治"},{"start":11321.795,"end":11342.64,"text":"形象或是我的政治主張但是這跟我的判決是完全兩碼子事他是完全會抽離的當他成為大法官的那一天他勢必要專業的去判準他的每一個判決而且依據憲法所以他的politics每個人有自己的politics"},{"start":11343.18,"end":11361.605,"text":"我有您有每一個委員都有但是當大家被提名成為中選會的委員未來渴望上任的時候請切記超越黨派超越個人的政治意識形態首先合法是必要的我相信胡教授非常同意這位Elena Kagan她的主張"},{"start":11362.375,"end":11391.324,"text":"其实也是物资要我个人的主张所以说下一页我刚刚在垂询这个主委被提名人游云龙先生的时候我也提到成功选务的三要素就是公正效率跟便民而中选会委员的四要件独立专业公正跟守线守法守线守法非常的重要唯有回到守线守法的基准我们才能够超越自己的politics"},{"start":11391.804,"end":11415.299,"text":"自己的政治意識的型態您同意嗎同意那麼在首先守法的這個範圍裡頭我對於剛剛因為時間有限游盈隆被提名人主委的被提名人他一直長期在論述的他個人認為這個罷免是災難的這件事情我尊重他的言論自由但是如果今天"},{"start":11416.658,"end":11443.921,"text":"成為中選會未來要獨立行使職權而且是首先守法的主委的時候回歸憲法的精神就非常重要憲法第17條所規範的人民有選舉罷免創制復決之權這是中華民國的憲法所以人民依據憲法所提出的罷免我希望過去的游盈隆學者跟未來的游盈隆主委"},{"start":11444.406,"end":11452.882,"text":"他的主張勢必要首先合法要脫離他個人的politics那您怎麼看這個命題呢您怎麼看待人民發起的大罷免"},{"start":11453.547,"end":11481.209,"text":"包委員我這個意見其實跟委員一樣但是我不要我其實某些方面也是認為說罷免制度其實在很多國家現在目前其實是被檢討的但是我們確實在憲法17條就寫著我們有罷免的權利這個是我們沒有辦法去否定的一件事情因為它寫在憲法裡面人民委員會跑來跟你講說我就可以罷免誰所以說首先守法很重要"},{"start":11482.757,"end":11511.603,"text":"個人作為學者的身份可以有自己的政治主張但一旦被提名成為國家的中選會的委員的時候首先手法就是重要的基準請尊重人民依據憲法所發動的基本公民權而我更要說大罷免是人民發動的而大惡罷才是國民黨發動的吳斯堯我本人就是受害者就是當事人我到現在還是中華民國史上被罷免者"},{"start":11512.093,"end":11531.774,"text":"的最高被偽造連署的份數2674份這份記錄負面的記錄還標記在我身上我非常的遺憾這是被發動大惡霸一方用違法的方式來僭越了來踐踏了憲法珍貴的人民父權我要在這裡提出"},{"start":11532.702,"end":11544.919,"text":"下一頁剛剛提到不再急投票我也都說即便要變名也要讓公正選舉跟選舉的效率不打折所以大家都有共識公投先行下一頁"},{"start":11546.007,"end":11572.514,"text":"各縣市政府有這樣的共識選務機關有這樣的共識所以請支持行政院的版本下一頁那回到這一頁就是說公投綁大選2018年的選務混亂只有2成8的人民同意而高達6成9的人民不滿意這就告訴我們公投綁大選需要有很好的機制配套未來好現在立法院修法通過"},{"start":11573.334,"end":11596.12,"text":"未來可能公投綁大選會再上路但是選務機關的責任就是維持它的運行不會混亂不會造成人民在選舉投票行使的不便利性那我就要問來下一頁您個人確實有主張但是我認為這個論述還是要再精確一點"},{"start":11597.202,"end":11611.739,"text":"依據公投法第10條中選會就主管機關對於不管人民發動的罷免對不起人民發動的公投或者是立法院發動的公投你還是必須去去審核他是不是符合法律跟憲法的規範對不對"},{"start":11613.137,"end":11636.784,"text":"我是認為他還是要有初步的審核那如果有問題就直接讓他去憲法法庭去做但是現在謝謝你提供未來立法院可能在修法的一個方向但目前並沒有您所說的這個條文就是說如果在中選會在認定在審核上的判準有所異議應當由憲法法庭來做最終的審議這是"},{"start":11638.504,"end":11654.279,"text":"未來法律所沒有的而這可能也會衍生另外的問題因為憲法法庭在審議釋憲的過程還有一定的程序那人民所發動他的對於部分的主張或是立法院的公投案本身也許在時程上沒有辦法等"},{"start":11655.34,"end":11682.896,"text":"這也會有其他衍生的問題但回到現在的法律的規範如果公投綁大選要讓他能夠不至於造成選務的混亂就是我們必須精確的讓合法首先的公投案才能上路不是嗎某些方面是否則從107年到115年我調閱了中選會的資料人民發動的公投案有69案您知道中選會駁回多少案嗎"},{"start":11683.872,"end":11711.259,"text":"不知道35案成立的34案換言之有一半的比例中選會的這個把關還是需要的因為他需要在首先合法的規範公投法第二條就規範了全國性公投跟地方性公投都有適用的要件而且他要符合憲法規定所以在人民發動的公投案裡頭從107年到15年有一半以上經過中選會的把關"},{"start":11713.479,"end":11724.585,"text":"有一半成立一半駁回這會避免了過多的公投你沒有去審核他是不是合法合憲你也必須去把關否則公投綁大選天啊2018年那種噩夢幾十案又來了同樣的立法院的公投案"},{"start":11732.748,"end":11745.422,"text":"立法院的公投案也是要守憲合法所以就像我說的用公投法的修正來推翻憲法的解釋是可以的嗎是可以的嗎"},{"start":11745.953,"end":11767.069,"text":"我覺得這個會觸犯到法治國原則的要求所以我是建議我非常理解您在法律上的一些理解但我認為發言要非常的嚴謹我也希望社會不要錯誤的解讀副主委您認為未來委員針對公投法是否合法合憲合規完全沒有審核把關的權利這非常危險"},{"start":11769.651,"end":11796.629,"text":"你在審核的不是政治的意識形態而是它有沒有符合國家公投的制度的法律的授權跟憲法的授權 您同意嗎同意我給您再最後一次去更正調整您的說法好嗎對於未來如果您當選通過立法院的同意權針對人民發動的公投案跟立法院所發動的公投案您認為中選會獨立機關要進行什麼樣子的把關我認為的把關都是屬於最低限度的把關"},{"start":11797.949,"end":11825.206,"text":"最低限度的不要過分的去干涉我們整個議案裡面內容避免中選會過度的逾越這件事情但是我想最低的限度的要求其實應該是可以達成的守法守憲這就是我們共同的底線好嗎依法行使職權我提醒所有的被提名人沒有政治意識形態而是依法守憲做我們該做的事情這樣你就能夠有很強的底氣不受政治所威脅"},{"start":11826.021,"end":11828.103,"text":"好嗎我們一起加油謝謝胡教授謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳斯亞委員質詢我們現在稱召之委員"},{"start":11847.268,"end":11872.119,"text":"多謝主席有請副主委被提名人 胡教授胡教授 雖然有委員有提到但是我對於您曾經投書媒體認為這個公學綁大頭會讓這個公投認為政黨這個對決的工具那甚至就是喪失了這個公投的這個本質這件事我還是要再請教你請問您現在對於公投綁大選還是這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":11872.719,"end":11881.28,"text":"我會認為如果可以的話讓它其實是不同天其實是一個可以的決定的選擇但是我們現在是要面對的問題是"},{"start":11882.594,"end":11902.115,"text":"法條已經修過了他就是要同天投票但是胡教授我了解你認為公投綁大選可能會讓政黨來主導這個公投議題造成公投失焦可是我的想法剛好跟你相反公投基本上這個公投綁大選基本上是強迫政黨或政治人物他必須他不能迴避他必須針對這個議題去做他的主張或是表態"},{"start":11905.518,"end":11928.325,"text":"那就是說讓選民也能夠有機會知道這個參選人他對於這個議題的想法跟態度根據這個議題他來做出他的選舉的決定換句話說您擔心的是這個公投會影響這個政黨會影響公投可是我的看法剛好是相反的我認為是人民做主的公投"},{"start":11929.125,"end":11936.997,"text":"反而會去影響這個政黨因為我相信台灣選民的數字是越來越高啊他們不見得是根據顏色去投票他們會根據議題看議題然後就來做這個選擇胡教授您贊同我的說法嗎我贊同"},{"start":11944.249,"end":11958.475,"text":"那過去的經驗就是我想你也非常清楚這個單獨舉行的公投他的投票率非常低資訊流通是有限的那結果往往被高度動員反而有可能讓政黨更容易去去做主導"},{"start":11959.936,"end":11979.407,"text":"綁大選你至少可以讓參與率是提高的參與率是提高讓公投的結果更能夠去反映整體選民的整體意志那您剛剛也一再提到修法已經通過了那我認為今年年底的地方選舉很可能很可能就是同時會舉辦公投那我要請問"},{"start":11980.627,"end":12000.643,"text":"這個胡教授因為您過去是反對的當然你現在要尊重這個法律已經通過的事實可是您能夠如實的去執行立法院通過的修法嗎你怎麼樣說服立法院還有台灣人民說你會按照這個修法你會公正如實的去把選務辦好你怎麼來說服"},{"start":12001.263,"end":12026.246,"text":"包委員我們在2018年因為公投綁大選的混亂之後因為當天有10個公投案確實造成一些混亂其實中選會在這邊其實針對整體的選務有做過改革所以在分流制度上面來講其實是已經達成了所以只要公投的案件數不會太多的話我相信其實當天可以秩序其實是可以被掌控的"},{"start":12028.647,"end":12046.276,"text":"我們是擔心說您會不會如實我會如實去辦好這件事情你的主張 我也同意你個人的主張跟這個作為有時候是可以分開的但是你的責任就是要遵守你的責任我想請教你對不在籍投票的看法民眾黨所提的不在籍投票其實是限於台灣島內 國內"},{"start":12048.697,"end":12067.288,"text":"這個移轉投票我們希望讓這個事實上你過去參與的時代力量目前還是也是這樣主張的請問胡教授您現在是支持國內移轉投票嗎我支持國內移轉投票你支持移轉投票這樣我們可以幫助就業就學的因素而不用這個周遮勞頓回到這個戶籍地來投票那但是"},{"start":12071.57,"end":12099.509,"text":"目前不再去投票是多數國家的一個做法連這個中南亞國家包括印尼菲律賓他們都做了那你知道前年印尼大選我們台灣的警察出來幫助幫助這個這個秩序的維安所以這個是我是覺得很丟臉我們可以幫助別的國家結果我們到目前為止還不允許還不允許我們的國民能夠做這個這個移轉這個投票所以我想說是剛剛胡教授您說您是支持的"},{"start":12100.45,"end":12104.782,"text":"那我們法過了以後 你也會按照這個去辦理對不對我們"},{"start":12106.041,"end":12130.624,"text":"立法院法律通過之後中選會會依據立法院所通過的選罷法等相關法規或公民投票法來處理我希望吳教授能夠遵守法律因為我們現在看太多期行政院長沒有遵守法律立法院通過的法律把它視為空氣形同空氣那我再想請教你一件事受刑人權利有民間團體認為非常關注受刑人跟羞辱人的投票權"},{"start":12131.525,"end":12159.825,"text":"那過去中情會認為根本不可能在在監投票那這等於完全剝奪了受刑人跟收容人的他這個憲法賦予的權利那我知道胡教授您在11月去年你也主持過在收容人投票權研討會擔任這個主持人胡教授你認為收容人跟受刑人有沒有投票權我先問你有沒有投票權有投票權只要他們沒有被褫奪公認他們就有投票權那如果有你要怎麼落實呢"},{"start":12160.492,"end":12175.252,"text":"我覺得在投開票所的設置上面來講我們因為要兼顧到公開化以及安全的問題這個部分其實我覺得不管是中選會或者法務部其實應該更努力來解決這問題因為他們有些人不是不在急有些人其實急就在監鎖"},{"start":12176.894,"end":12202.171,"text":"你提到的還是技術面問題嘛你在歐洲嘛歐洲他們就是很多人就有很多國家他就設了這個在間投票嘛這個你們你過去所屬的時代力量他們也是一直用這樣做例子嘛所以胡教授你認為是可行的嗎我認為可行這一次就可以辦了嗎年底的選舉就可以辦了嗎這個我不確定這個可能要跟幕僚機關以及各省市選委會來辦但是從我的觀點來講我一直都認為這是可以做的"},{"start":12206.155,"end":12217.698,"text":"可以做就要去做啊我也會去從我的觀點我也會去推行這件事情謝謝謝謝吳教授謝謝我們感謝陳昭芝委員質詢現在中途我們不需要休息繼續開會因為現在12點了在這裡我們鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":12248.117,"end":12265.225,"text":"福教授好原住民選舉前的困境沒有聽過吧我有聽過原住民議題我其實也有熟悉謝謝你的關注秘密投票"},{"start":12266.994,"end":12290.328,"text":"原住民很多的選舉沒有秘密投票的一個情形雖然憲法規定的很明確無記名投票是方法行之但是因為原住民從原鄉到都會區工作的非常多然後遷积的也很多"},{"start":12291.263,"end":12319.099,"text":"所以相關的這些事實上在都會期原住民的人口數已經達到50%有社會籍的已經達到50%左右所以這樣的一個情形之下一個投票所只有一個人的就有以平地原住民來講就有966人一個投票所兩個人的以平地原住民講來說就是1034"},{"start":12321.127,"end":12345.306,"text":"如果包括三個人的總共有2900多將近3000人那我們看山地原住民山地原住民也是一樣也有類似這樣子情形一到三人的總共有3235人所以他投票給誰一開票就知道他投票給誰所以他就變成說"},{"start":12347.805,"end":12365.896,"text":"會考慮是不是要不要去投票會有這樣的一個情形所以這樣的一個情形怎麼樣去保障憲法徵修條文第十條第十二項保障原住民的政治參與政治參與除了參政權之外還有選舉權選舉權本席透過質詢請這個中選會要這個"},{"start":12375.939,"end":12400.956,"text":"解決秘密投票 質詢了非常非常的多次因為事實上是可以 不修法其實是可以的以公職人員選舉辦人法第57條第三項 原住民公職人員選舉得徵走實際情形 單獨設置投票所或在選舉區內辦理投票"},{"start":12403.789,"end":12430.869,"text":"事實上只有規定 但是一直沒有辦法落實所以本席不得不修法所以今年 去年12月26號三讀通過為保障原住民秘密投票權益 應單獨設置投票然後不受第17條第一項應在戶籍地投票之限制當初在修法的討論的時候中選會還是不支持"},{"start":12432.211,"end":12461.103,"text":"所以這樣的部分如果這個副教授能夠擔任副主委或者是其他的被提名人也能夠擔任委員希望落實這次的一個修正的條例可以嗎 可以接下來談不在己投票原住民族的不在己投票事實上最可以先實施的是"},{"start":12462.153,"end":12483.501,"text":"立法委員因為原住民的立法委員的選區是台澎金所以跟總統一起選舉所以原住民要實施不在籍投票是應該最優先來辦理是可以執行的因為我們每一個投票所都有我們的選民"},{"start":12485.27,"end":12505.878,"text":"都有投票所了就是移轉投票就很容易了因為每個台北市每個都有原住民的投票所所以這個部分是可以先實施的因為沒有實施所以造成我們原住民與非原住民的投票率的差異你想想看以3D原住民來講我們就講第11屆立委"},{"start":12507.546,"end":12535.312,"text":"差距13.83%投票率平地原住民是7%多這樣的一個落差就是因為太遠了我們看這個台灣地圖一個住台北市的鄉親他要到蘭嶼投票回去他的戶籍地就很遠不要說蘭嶼就到屏東或是到台東都非常非常的遠而且還要到山上"},{"start":12536.531,"end":12563.215,"text":"不是到了台東火車站之後 還要到山上所以這個原住民族的不在籍投票更是有它的一個需要性我看了這個印尼 在台灣我們的外勞 印尼的外勞在台灣都是 都投票所以在台灣投票在台灣還不只 不是只有在台北市每個縣市都有投票所"},{"start":12564.498,"end":12587.33,"text":"像這樣他們都可以受得到這樣的一個情形我們確實做不到我們真的是要加油所以這個部分也希望我們這個胡教授以及各位被提名人到了中選會之後能夠優先支持嚴肅民主的不在己投票 可以嗎可以 沒問題謝謝我們感謝鄭天才委員資訊"},{"start":12593.496,"end":12610.125,"text":"咱家習星雲委員 習星雲委員不在咱家省花卉 省花卉委員不在葉延芝 葉延芝 葉延芝不在"},{"start":12619.888,"end":12635.819,"text":"在這被提名人胡柏彥先生所說明和質詢的都已經結束完畢委員習新英提出書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":12641.357,"end":12649.721,"text":"再來我們比提名人的吳博言先生可以先離席可以先離席我們現在的休訓五分鐘"},{"start":12666.591,"end":12677.897,"text":"我們繼續國分前後繼續進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明價值詢問謝謝大家辛苦了"},{"start":12807.111,"end":12807.234,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":13060.815,"end":13066.638,"text":"來 繼續開會 進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明和詢答請黃文玲女士說明主席"},{"start":13077.857,"end":13092.868,"text":"各位委員各位在場的先進大家午安大家好我是黃文玲那這次非常榮幸的能夠受到這個行政院提名為這次的中選會委員的被提名人"},{"start":13093.368,"end":13105.019,"text":"那今天來這裡呢也是要跟大家來分享就是說我其實民國83年就考上律師那一直擔任律師到現在那在期間呢在2012年到"},{"start":13108.842,"end":13129.315,"text":"14年的時候擔任第八屆的立法委員那有短暫的時間在立法院那時候也是在內政委員會那期間呢我在過去從事這個律師的職務其實有辦理非常多的這個選罷法的案件包括會選案當選人這個資格不私認的案子還有"},{"start":13130.035,"end":13143.805,"text":"就是譬如說有假訊息的案件等等所以在實務上或許能夠提供給未來的中選會一些建言當然我本身在2004年的時候還有2014跟18也都參與過"},{"start":13148.548,"end":13168.503,"text":"立法委員的選舉及彰化縣長的選舉在選舉的過程當中當然就會有非常多的選務的紛爭我想我們主席也是身經百戰大家都也很清楚就是選舉可能會遇到的一些糾紛我覺得這一次的被提名人裡面"},{"start":13169.444,"end":13185.009,"text":"其實跟上一屆的感覺上好像比較多的出入因為上一屆我看實務界的律師有好幾位那這一次的被提名人裡面大部分都是學者專家而且都是憲政的學者專家那實務界的好像律師就只有我一人"},{"start":13185.669,"end":13207.825,"text":"那我希望說如果未來有機會擔任中選會的委員我們除了要讓中選會要保持他的獨立性中立性及公正性之外還要維護他的專業跟可信賴性那當然在這個過程之中選務的過程之中確實有非常多的可能會"},{"start":13208.525,"end":13224.542,"text":"涉及到紛爭的部分會影響到這個選務工作人員的部分所以未來如果有機會的話我們也是應該要來維護我們選務人員的尊嚴那以上那希望說就是能夠對這個中選會能夠有所貢獻謝謝謝謝 感謝說明我們這裡黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":13240.428,"end":13264.453,"text":"謝謝主席 我請被提名人請讓我們被提名人委員好 好久不見我稱呼您黃律師好黃律師很高興在這邊看到您尤其是您的父親是以前非常受敬重的中選會的主委我想中選會也好或者是任何選委會的委員都需要"},{"start":13265.373,"end":13282.334,"text":"移植相關的公正跟獨立性那民主選舉的過程裡面不是只有最後一天的結果我想過程很重要過程的公平包括更多的所謂的不孝方法或者是說有一些不正當的方式造成了選舉的不公"},{"start":13283.188,"end":13300.472,"text":"那我個人比較我看到你的問卷大概到大部分都有回答不過我今天要問的是根據有關選舉過程裡面其實最大的一塊叫做媒體不公媒體不公的部分在各個法律其都規定得非常清楚總統副總統選罷法46條還有公職人員選罷法49條在廣播電視"},{"start":13306.013,"end":13331.728,"text":"也從事選舉或罷免相關議題的論證新聞報導或邀請候選人罷免案提議人或被罷免人的參加節目要公正公平處理不可以有無正當理由的差別待遇但是這麼多年來我相信你也選過去我們只要是非所謂主流媒體的支持的對象大概都會在很多媒體中被消失"},{"start":13332.581,"end":13355.393,"text":"包括在我想去年的總統大選也非常的清楚2024的總統大選非常清楚的是某個藍媒 綠媒現在已經台灣人都有一定的既定的印象你會看到有一些藍媒看不到綠色的綠媒看不到藍色的那更糟糕的像台灣民眾黨我們是中間所以兩邊都看不到"},{"start":13356.834,"end":13369.631,"text":"這個部分我們曾經也提出過很嚴肅的控訴那NCC有回答說查無證據啦我們也有檢舉但是回去要給中選會所以我們就不禁要去查到在101年"},{"start":13370.888,"end":13393.858,"text":"在105年其實中選會都曾經對於媒體沒有邀請平衡報導或者是沒有邀請到這些所有的參選人而開罰的紀錄我想請問您您對第一媒體在選舉過程中沒有依法行事第二個105年到現在已經快10年了沒有塵埃任何一個媒體處罰"},{"start":13394.898,"end":13409.756,"text":"所以反而我們會懷念您父親當時當中選會主委的時候我們還有道德勇氣對媒體做相關的裁罰如果有這樣的案子我想知道您的想法跟您對於選舉公平應該在媒體上面怎麼樣來維護中選會的獨立性跟公正性"},{"start":13414.597,"end":13440.218,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想剛剛你提到這個部分其實我深受感同因為我其實我在2014年到18年這兩次彰化縣長選舉我就是以無黨籍的身份參選但是確實是媒體就是全部都把我們的新聞全部都消失被消失掉所以我可以感受到就是說就是選委會在這個"},{"start":13441.319,"end":13462.866,"text":"辦理選舉的過程之中其實它是必須要秉持公正客觀的態度而且其專業的部分那至於就是特定的媒體那他們是不是可以就針對這個部分就是被選舉人就是沒有做公平的報導的部分是不是應該裁罰的部分其實我記得我那時候有去抗議過"},{"start":13463.806,"end":13493.446,"text":"但是似乎是好像沒有作用因為他們認為那個是NCC的所以這就是我們今天中選會其實在101年曾經罰過當時是華氏在政見發表會之後沒有播出某個候選人的會後記者會被裁罰了20萬基本的該有的所以我認為中選會應該要有基本的就是法律的價值它的價值就是要維護選舉的公正公平"},{"start":13493.886,"end":13523.232,"text":"然後每個這個候選人都能夠在這個媒體上能夠被揭露我想大家都可能很清楚的知道這個公正性的確在現今的台灣媒體環境裡面做不到但是我相信中選會應該要做到中選會如果中選會還有道德勇氣的話我們十年來都沒有成過半子案子但是105年那時候還有某些節目只邀請特地的候選人還有"},{"start":13523.832,"end":13550.867,"text":"只邀請某些特定的沒有給予其他選區同樣的候選人相同的機會就被裁罰了40萬跟20萬這是我想中選會委員必須要秉持的一個中正的立場所以他們那個時候的中選會委員可能有道德勇氣才會做這樣的一個裁量所以我們也期待我們未來有機會擔任委員的話也希望能夠秉持這樣一個立場是 只要依法就好公平就好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13554.336,"end":13580.236,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝黃珊珊委員北提名人黃文玲女士在說明和詢問已經結束我們北提名人黃文玲女士可以先行離席我們休訓五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":13600.777,"end":13611.381,"text":"謝謝大家的收看"},{"start":13632.579,"end":13645.603,"text":"謝謝大家謝謝大家"},{"start":13673.537,"end":13673.557,"text":"來,請坐"},{"start":13678.372,"end":13702.382,"text":"那個要不要就是因為我們就就是就我們一個人一個人這樣看他的狀況但是我覺得就是"},{"start":13704.722,"end":13723.253,"text":"我覺得 我等一下去跟他溝通好了因為我們 因為目前的話我們諮詢人就我們諮詢人可以拖八分 等一下還要等一下我算一下 四分多 八分多"},{"start":13735.708,"end":13757.381,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13768.275,"end":13783.93,"text":"喔 可以可以 因為報告人是八分鐘 然後兩分鐘對 對 對 說明大概幾分鐘就三分鐘兩分鐘 沒關係 因為我也在三樓 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13791.954,"end":13805.708,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13820.623,"end":13850.452,"text":"然後再下一個說明完再下一個所以它還有一遍大概就是這樣我會聽到我前面講的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話"},{"start":13866.325,"end":13866.365,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13890.919,"end":13899.364,"text":"來 我們繼續開會我們繼續進行被提名人李立忠先生的說明和詢問請中選會委員被提名人李立忠先生說明"},{"start":13914.861,"end":13932.458,"text":"王主席還有各位委員還有我們張秘書長還有各位在座的先生跟女士我是李李仲那很高興這次被我們行政院提名為中央選舉委員會委員的被提名人那我在此報告那我們都知道民主"},{"start":13933.839,"end":13958.77,"text":"選舉制度乃是憲政秩序與民主制度的一個核心那它的公正性跟可信賴性跟穩定性直接關係人民對我們台灣民主的一個信賴的關鍵中央選舉委員會肩負了選舉與公民投票的規劃執行與監督的重任"},{"start":13959.935,"end":13986.054,"text":"其專業性 獨立性跟依法行政對於民主制度之健全運作具有關鍵的意義唐友信擔任中央選舉委員會一職個人將超越黨派以維護憲法精神確保選舉公平強化制度信賴為最高自我期許"},{"start":13987.659,"end":14002.521,"text":"然而 擔任中央選舉委員會委員並非權力之所在而是責任與信賴之所繼本人之抱負在於以專業 理性與公正"},{"start":14003.78,"end":14020.969,"text":"首先合法協助台灣建構一個經得起政治競爭社會檢驗與歷史評價的選舉制度為我們民主發展盡一份長期而穩定的力量以上報告謝謝各位"},{"start":14024.705,"end":14042.041,"text":"謝謝感謝說明因為沒有委員長去接訊所以我們的李立中的說明到這裡 提名人李立中先生可以先行離席我們休訓兩分鐘謝謝"},{"start":14047.498,"end":14057.107,"text":"有機會這樣議席議席要不然坐在那裡聽一些大家留意的意見這樣也很好謝謝 辛苦辛苦有機會這樣"},{"start":14075.623,"end":14092.375,"text":"哎呀"},{"start":14100.401,"end":14112.586,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":14136.376,"end":14144.378,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14171.233,"end":14187.669,"text":"來 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生之說明跟詢問我們現在中選會委員被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生說明"},{"start":14196.281,"end":14208.906,"text":"主席 秘書長 麥委員 還有全體的女士們 先生們我是福音科技大學蘇嘉鴻蘇老師"},{"start":14210.917,"end":14237.499,"text":"我在這個學校任教已經有32年的歷史在去年因為種種的機緣巧合被推薦被提名所以有這個機會來這邊接受大家的提問我在這裡想要講兩件事情第一件事情"},{"start":14239.857,"end":14263.016,"text":"從早上到現在所有的委員們對被提名人的提問大概聚焦在幾件事情上面大概不外就是公投綁大選以及不在籍投票另外還有其他的問題不管怎麼樣這都是一個值得追求的"},{"start":14265.632,"end":14269.512,"text":"未來方向 它是一個值得追求的未來方向"},{"start":14270.58,"end":14296.194,"text":"但是我們必須要很誠實的去面對中選會現在當前的行政量能未來的考驗其實都在於未來的中選會能不能在自己的行政量能上面有所擴張 有所深化來因應這些挑戰"},{"start":14298.404,"end":14315.497,"text":"所以在一個值得追求的方向它代表了一種進步的價值但與此同時我們對於中選會的目前的行政量能卻沒有與時俱增的一種調整這完全是不現實的"},{"start":14317.079,"end":14342.805,"text":"那中選會的組織編制據說是57個然後預算編制是55個總之他不會超過60個人那地方選委會是負責選務工作所以不管是境外的或者是這個省委的啦等等的這些各式各樣的挑戰"},{"start":14344.113,"end":14364.228,"text":"那麼中選會其實是沒有辦法回應這個現代的時代需求跟社會的這樣的殷切的期待所以在這種情況之下我認為就是我要講的第二點中選會的委員們應該是要專任的目前是無幾職"},{"start":14368.666,"end":14376.903,"text":"那NCC跟這個公平會呢都是專任的那這個以兼任的"},{"start":14377.697,"end":14401.874,"text":"兼職的 無幾職的委員要來因應這些剛剛講過的重重的挑戰實在是分身乏術了 實在是分身乏術幸好此時此刻的審查會是在這個禮拜如果是在上週上上週的話是學期最後一週要辦這個"},{"start":14404.127,"end":14430.513,"text":"期末考 要簽考 要印考卷什麼的怎麼可能來呢要把本職工作薪水顧好所以這麼工作 這個工作這麼兼具對委員來講 確實無幾值的兼職這是一個很奇特的現象所以我們必須要讓獨立機關的獨立性因為委員的踴躍性獲得保障"},{"start":14431.383,"end":14459.479,"text":"那這個機關才能夠因應未來的這麼一些更多的一個挑戰那麼第二件事情就是說那麼有關於這個選舉罷免的訴訟選罷法的這個訴訟目前都還是在民事法院裡面它明明是公法訴訟那這個部分我們可能在未來也可以再重新做個調整跟思考以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":14462.782,"end":14467.985,"text":"謝謝感謝首名我們這裡定期麥一貞委員質詢謝謝主席 有請蘇老師蘇老師謝謝老師好 真的辛苦了"},{"start":14491.857,"end":14520.191,"text":"所以我們說想要請問一下因為現在的選舉制度你有說了就是憲政由內政部主管選務由中選會負責的分立設計原意在於落實責任政治就是維護選舉的中立但你也指出實務上因為全職的交"},{"start":14521.171,"end":14538.448,"text":"交換 所以呢 往往就是導致改革就是遲締甚至使中選會受制於行政關係難以回應高度流動社會於新型的風險所以呢 我想要請教兩點第一 在維持分立的架構下 你認為"},{"start":14545.695,"end":14569.137,"text":"中選會應清楚定位以依法執行選務的獨立機關而非非推上政治的正義第一線第二若短期仍維持分立體制是否通過交錯的任期專任化外部專家參與度透明等的"},{"start":14569.797,"end":14581.743,"text":"制度設計就是逐步強化中選會獨立性與公信力我們要的就是可以獨立作業嗎 這樣子的一個目標"},{"start":14583.439,"end":14599.071,"text":"是的 我原您的提問通通都是我的答案我就是肯定的很好 所以在我們的問卷裡面也有回覆指出說選舉權不是刑"},{"start":14602.413,"end":14627.282,"text":"形式的權利 而是國家必要積極保障的基本權 當人民因為求學啊就業啊 或者服役或職群無法返回戶籍投票的時候 我國家就是要提供替代制度 實質上就是就限制其他投票並"},{"start":14629.623,"end":14651.214,"text":"對年輕人還有流動人口造成不平等所以我們你認為在就是本人到場還有身份查驗也秘密投票的前提下國內移轉投票在實質上不是便利措施是"},{"start":14652.652,"end":14679.282,"text":"國家例行憲法保障參政的必要制度你也強調說國內轉移投票不同於資訊或者電子投票風險可控不宜被過度上網為國安問題那麼有立法完成不在籍投票的法治化的那個就是投票的法治化"},{"start":14680.12,"end":14692.096,"text":"你是否認為中選會在制度設計就是執行上應如何就是權力就是最大為原則從如何讓更合格"},{"start":14694.1,"end":14719.586,"text":"選民安全投票出發因為現在很多地方就是各國等於是說印尼 菲律賓他們都是可以就是在台灣在投票但是我在這邊強調的是說我們的民眾黨說的就是在台灣 在台灣 在台灣是移轉投票而已所以你覺得是說這樣子我們能做得到嗎"},{"start":14722.008,"end":14742.545,"text":"以目前国内的移转投票我认为中选会可能步步为赢也是步步为赢赢得胜利的赢这件事情我觉得中选会可能还可以勉强的"},{"start":14745.747,"end":14770.143,"text":"跟上社會的需求但是如果我們繼續做民主深化的話我們還要再做其他更大的發展的話以目前我再強調一次我所了解到的中選會的行政量能是做不到的所以必須要有所調整才能夠因應時代的變遷回應社會的需求 以上"},{"start":14771.363,"end":14797.666,"text":"中選會應該做得到現在我們是台灣是科技國家所以這個是說應該要做得到不是說還在不一定做得到我覺得這個是已經我們台灣已經應該要做得到的所以接下來我想要請教一下因為現在就是兩岸人民的關係明定大陸地區人民在"},{"start":14798.867,"end":14822.203,"text":"涉及滿十年還有我是外配也是滿十年就是依法登記為公職候選人但是立法則憲法徵定條文裡面第十一條所做出了特別規範但近期引發就是行政機關用國籍法張大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14828.787,"end":14854.174,"text":"人民比例外國人額外要求放棄所謂的外國國籍形同就是以行政解釋架空的特別法所以你在這邊也是就是你說理解所以你也是說依法依法就是涉及滿十年原則是大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14854.514,"end":14857.955,"text":"參政權是否以憲法保障的基本權應用優先因為在我們的兩岸條款這邊就是說優先應用所以排除國籍法的類型就是來去適用所以在目前我們的部會"},{"start":14875.522,"end":14892.814,"text":"法律見解出現就十分之甚至有行政官員公開宣稱說陸配參政權已死的情況下你是否認為說中選會應依特別法明文辦理選務而非"},{"start":14895.456,"end":14897.719,"text":"而非就是被動承受這樣子可能違憲的行政解釋以免就是實質剝奪人民的參政權報告委員"},{"start":14909.515,"end":14936.473,"text":"台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例相對於國籍法民法諸多的相關涉及的法律目前就是一種特別法優先適用於普通法的這樣的一種法律適用關係這是沒有疑問的如果啦在這個特別法的跟普通法的這種優先適用關係不成立的話"},{"start":14937.577,"end":14960.613,"text":"那大陸地區人民來談 繼承這個遺產的上限兩百兩百萬可能就會怎麼樣呢那就不用遵守了 回到民法它的印記份或者是什麼樣的那都很可能超過兩百萬所以這個特別法的問題 這是第一個第二個 這個叫做期待可能性"},{"start":14961.734,"end":14988.463,"text":"如果中國大陸是沒有放棄國籍的這樣的一種法治的話強要我們的大陸配偶回去大陸去放棄國籍在客觀上沒有其他可能性強人民之所難以此來剝奪人民的參政權這個我不能認同 以上報告"},{"start":14989.042,"end":15012.56,"text":"好 謝謝 再給我一分鐘謝謝主席 謝謝我們的老師給我們的說明所以我常講的就是說我們不要因出勝地來去決定我們在台灣的我們拿身份證是跟我們國民一模模一樣樣參選也是一模模一樣樣的當選也是一模模一樣樣不要再拿出勝地來去"},{"start":15013.741,"end":15020.589,"text":"就是在台灣努力的人所以在最後就是請教我們的教授你在問卷中也多次強調選舉制度的核心不在政治操作的便利而在"},{"start":15029.36,"end":15032.201,"text":"憲法持續的穩定以及人民參政權是否能對實質保障在這樣子的一個關鍵問題你是否未來擔任中選會的委員在面對高度的政治爭議或跨部會法律的見解的分支時"},{"start":15050.348,"end":15068.241,"text":"你將如何具體拿捏中選會作為獨立機關的分機確保制度解釋回到法律明定性以憲政的原則真正守住民主制度與人民參政權的長期保障是 報告委員那個超越黨派依法行政公正公開 以上報告"},{"start":15078.763,"end":15092.09,"text":"好 太好了 謝謝希望未來就是要看你要讓我們的國家正常運轉讓保障我們的人民 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 感謝麥真委員質詢南北提名人蘇嘉鳳先生的說明跟質詢都已經結束"},{"start":15105.802,"end":15114.647,"text":"被提名人舒嘉宏先生可以先行離席休息兩分鐘 謝謝大家"},{"start":15143.251,"end":15145.052,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":15153.558,"end":15173.178,"text":"因為是很方便,現在我們是在滿國之大地,很方便,因為如果東南歐,那是一個很舒服的地方,很舒服的地方"},{"start":15173.899,"end":15198.916,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":15204.111,"end":15209.814,"text":"慢慢來"},{"start":15241.724,"end":15255.032,"text":"謝謝 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人舒芝喬先生之說明和詢問請中選會的委員被提名人舒芝喬先生說明主席 黃委員各位委員"},{"start":15268.98,"end":15279.649,"text":"張秘書長還有在座各位先進 大家好非常榮幸能夠在這邊接受立法院的審查"},{"start":15283.568,"end":15299.828,"text":"很榮幸被台灣民眾黨推薦然後受行政院提名為中選會的被提名人我目前在東吳大學任教目前是東吳大學政治系的教授我自己的研究專長研究領域是"},{"start":15301.67,"end":15312.881,"text":"憲政體制還有選語制度那對於選語制度事實上有蠻多的這個世界各國選語制度有蠻多的一些觀察跟研究所以我自己個人認為就是說有這個機會有這個榮幸"},{"start":15317.626,"end":15334.906,"text":"如果能夠到中選會來服務的話其實是貢獻我自己的所長所以作為一個學者能夠進行公共服務有這樣的機會其實我是非常覺得是樂觀其成的而且也是覺得很榮幸能夠有機會擔任這樣的工作的"},{"start":15338.98,"end":15356.6,"text":"我對於自己的這個中選會的一個如果說將來能夠有機會能夠擔任中選委員的話我想我對自己的一個自我的定位是超越黨派然後依法行政然後公平公正的性質權雖然我是受台灣民眾黨所推薦但我不是台灣民眾黨的"},{"start":15358.121,"end":15380.522,"text":"政黨的代言人因為做一個中選會這樣的獨立機關我做一個研究憲政憲法的學者其實我對獨立機關本身的一個期許是相當的深厚的所以如果說我真的有機會有榮幸擔任中選會委員的話我想這是我一個對自己的一個非常深切的自我的期待自我期許"},{"start":15381.701,"end":15396.941,"text":"那就是我覺得中選會在過去這幾年來在政治的紛擾當中事實上確實它的公信力跟它的一些它的獨立性似乎受到社會各界的某一些質疑不過其實我還是相當"},{"start":15397.982,"end":15417.982,"text":"程度肯定這個中選會的同仁的在選務工作上的很多的努力那只是說在台灣目前這個朝野的這樣的一個對立情況之下不免會有一些對中選會這個獨立機關的這樣的一個一個政治上的一些批判那我認為就是說強化中選會的"},{"start":15420.203,"end":15442.335,"text":"公信力 獨立性是這個未來中選會要進一步去努力的一個方向那我也希望就是說我未來如果有幸作為一個中選會的委員在這個合一制的運作之下能夠貢獻自己所長然後這個對於這個台灣的民主深化民主鞏固以及這個民主的韌性盡一分心力我想我就簡短報告到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":15445.214,"end":15468.939,"text":"謝謝 感謝說明我們今天定期張祺凱委員質詢家屬教授 主席你先"},{"start":15471.638,"end":15498.671,"text":"所以說今天從游營榮游主委到副主委到目前最熱門的被問到的就是不在即投票了不在即投票游營榮游主委提到的是他贊成可是他要求從公投開始做事實上最近這幾天有看到民進黨立院黨團向前跨了一步立院黨團的幹事長鍾嘉斌講說必要的時候從總統大選都可以開始做"},{"start":15500.814,"end":15516.386,"text":"那我看你回答我們這個問卷你是贊成不再急投票的特別是台灣民眾黨現在提出來版本國內移轉投票有沒有可能 有沒有可能如果你獲得提名完之後我剛剛講的是三個階段"},{"start":15517.492,"end":15534.959,"text":"游英龍公投到了民進黨黨團連總統大選都可以了有沒有可能進來之後如果成功被提名通過這個中選會的這個提名之後進來之後有沒有可能在今年的年底縣市長的投票有可能可以做不在籍投票嗎"},{"start":15536.167,"end":15564.966,"text":"我想謝謝委員那個詢問就是不在於投票現在當然要等那個法律通過嘛所以中選會作為獨立機關最重要值得是依法行政啦所以我是很樂見就是說寫期待就是說這個不在於投票法能夠通過那事實上我覺得目前對於不在於投票的一些疑慮我想確實是存是我想可以肯定的事實上你剛提了一個非常重要依法行政是就是民眾黨這個版本已經提出來了"},{"start":15565.706,"end":15579.747,"text":"如果立法院三讀通過的民眾黨這個版本那就是中選會就在依法 依法憲政嘛 對不對那如果來得及的話就是今年年底的縣市長選舉可能就可以開始做這個台灣民眾黨這個版本而且這個版本"},{"start":15581.65,"end":15607.019,"text":"不是什麼有什麼國安餘力什麼境外勢力介入的他沒有國外也沒有兩岸我們這個界定的就是國內的移轉投票就是你還是要親自要去投跟你有提到說這跟通信投票又不一樣對不對所以執行上應該是沒有問題的那我問你一下因為剛剛有這個委員就回答說中選會的行政量能做不到你覺得做不做得到"},{"start":15608.209,"end":15632.064,"text":"我覺得中選會當然就是他會一個比較謹慎的態度在面對這個事情啦可是我自己會認為就是說如果真的法律已經通過了那中選會當然就是要盡力去配合辦理那我也認為中選會在一定的時間準備之下是應該有一定的準備的量能去推動這件事情的依法行政然後盡快推動是可以"},{"start":15632.484,"end":15661.614,"text":"有機會在年底依法來行政來做的對不對其實是有可能的事實上你是專門研究選舉的日本都已經實施不再舉投票大概二十幾年了二十幾年了我看那個報導上面寫他說日本連在攔戟日本人去攔戟都可以投票他們甚至可以提前投票跟美國都是一樣的南韓也有嘛他們號稱科技大國怎麼我們的技術是有問題的連我們的移工"},{"start":15663.364,"end":15690.604,"text":"在台灣的印尼的移工 菲律賓的移工他們都有投票啊所以老實講我們要趕快去推動要不然真的會被世界上笑啦好 OK這個題希望你以後可以盡力去推動那當然就是可能有些人可能意見會不一樣可是最重要最重要的就是這個法有沒有在最近完成三讀另外我看你的回答裡面有一個非常重要的這個上次總統大選的時候啊有一個非常有名的這個網紅"},{"start":15693.528,"end":15710.901,"text":"愛麗莎莎 她因為轉發了有些民眾有在質疑說是不是有作票結果後來你們中選會就告了她了後來沒有起訴 黃國昌就在問她說中選會到後來一句抱歉都沒說 你怎麼看這樣一個事情"},{"start":15713.269,"end":15734.61,"text":"我想中選會作為一個獨立機關它的基本的做法應該以公開呈現為主要優先的一個選項我想提起訴訟這個是一個比較相對來講我覺得個人來講是一個比較激烈手段呈現把事實呈現不是急於去輕鬆你的態度是這樣所以以後希望中選會不要急著去輕鬆最後問一個問題最要緊的問題"},{"start":15737.886,"end":15753.351,"text":"這個去年引起最大爭議的就是國民黨提了實質廢死的這個公投在中選會被廢掉了你怎麼看這樣一個事情如果你當選了中選會的這個委員之後如果再來提一次這個實質廢死這個案子你會怎麼樣來處理這個案子"},{"start":15757.492,"end":15782.386,"text":"這個問題確實是比較在憲政協議上我覺得是比較有真理的不過我簡單回答就是立法院所提的公投案依照目前這個公投法的規定其實中選會是沒有審查權的所以當立法院真的提了這樣公投案我想中選會我如果說這個案子重新這個同樣發生的話中選會必須依法辦理那只是說確實這個用憲法"},{"start":15783.286,"end":15807.609,"text":"就是公投去推翻憲法判決本身這個事情的這個議題我覺得我作為一個學者我是有一點疑慮的不過作為一個中選會這個獨立機關的角色我認為就是依法行政我想這是最優先的考量中選會去沒收立法院的這個提案那不就變成是太上立法院了對不對 而且你講到一個重點你今天質詢 我覺得你答詢得非常好你都是依法行政在做事情所以如果這個案子如果"},{"start":15808.67,"end":15815.296,"text":"最近又被提出來 請依法行政來做事情不要急於去沒收 好不好好 好 非常謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 我們感謝張之凱委員質詢"},{"start":15828.578,"end":15850.395,"text":"我們繼續經營被提名人蘇志喬先生說明跟詢問都已經結束了在這裡被提名人蘇志喬先生可以先行離席我們休息兩分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":15858.928,"end":15867.874,"text":"一幕,一幕啦,我們要五分啊,改兩分啊,開始啦,前輩,前輩,馬上好,欸,兩分鐘啊,DJ,啊,這樣喔,這個,這個,這個,這個主持人,"},{"start":15891.894,"end":15900.716,"text":"今天等於說對我們來講就是七場啦所以一定要切啦對,對我們來講就是七場"},{"start":15912.664,"end":15925.411,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":15938.533,"end":15939.394,"text":"30秒30秒他有那個壓縮那個時間"},{"start":15967.372,"end":15979.099,"text":"我們繼續進行被提名人陳忠義先生說明及詢問這中選會委員被提名人陳忠義先生說明"},{"start":15990.647,"end":16006.678,"text":"主席 張紅蘿委員 吳啟明委員 在座各位官員我是這次中選委員被提名人陳忠義很榮幸也很高興能夠來立法院來答詢 接受審查"},{"start":16008.834,"end":16031.53,"text":"我想今天坐下來 我是當然 人家說好酒定慢醉不是淡於中宿 那我想今天聽了吳思瑤的選舉創意美學我們很有啟發 也聽到張宏祿委員對選辦法第98條之一虛為欠席戶籍 意圖使人當選五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":16032.23,"end":16044.938,"text":"所以我們都聽到很多委員的寶貴意見我們都會吸收來加以運用那我有能性的通過的話我一定會秉持公正公平獨立專業依法來執行職務謝謝各位 謝謝 以上謝謝 感謝蕭明我們前期的委員長黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在"},{"start":16064.195,"end":16077.851,"text":"比提名人陳忠義先生說明及諮詢已經結束了比提名人陳忠義先生可以先行離席"},{"start":16081.653,"end":16106.042,"text":"本次會議定期的這項跟問出委比提名人的本院委員除了不在場議員全都已經發言完畢 審討結束委員有蘇巧慧 莊瑞雄 高金樹梅"},{"start":16107.369,"end":16129.395,"text":"在博弈省發會所提出的書面執行列入紀錄 刊登公報委員會這順中間有要求提供相關資料與密度報告報告的部分將行政院與相關機關進行書面答覆"},{"start":16134.637,"end":16163.3,"text":"報告聯席會對院會交付審查行政院寒送中央委員選舉委員會委員提名名單游一龍為委員並為主任委員胡柏諺為委員並為副主委委員黃文玲"},{"start":16164.434,"end":16176.704,"text":"李立忠 蘇嘉鴻 蘇芝喬 陳忠義軍委委員請同意案"},{"start":16185.035,"end":16193.76,"text":"審查完均做以下的關係本院審查完均依六款依之前行使法第29條的第三項規定以2月13日依據審查報告"},{"start":16205.937,"end":16210.68,"text":"提請院會公決請問各位委員有沒有什麼意義沒有 我們就通過本案與院會討論的時候由王召集委員會補充說明請問各位委員 還有什麼問題沒有沒有 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麥玉珍 丁學忠委員三人列席官員 大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑暨相關人員內政部常務次長吳唐安暨相關人員中央全局委員會法務部外交部國家安全局國家通訊傳播委員會數位發展部交通部司法院監察院財團法人海峽交流基金會等機關代表暨相關人員主席王昭吉委員美會討論事項審查反滲透法修正草案暨時案討論事項合併詢答委員"},{"start":1675.712,"end":1701.867,"text":"沈博洋 王定宇 黃捷說明提案要旨大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑內政部常務次長吳唐安報告委員蘇巧慧等17人質詢分別由大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑及相關人員國家安全局第三處陳副處長法務部參事謝志明司法院刑事廳法官吳元耀內政部常務次長吳唐安中央選舉委員會法政處處長蔡京高數位發展部法制處副處長吳怡倫答覆說明"},{"start":1702.327,"end":1726.361,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員莊銳雄 林怡瑾 丁學忠 徐欣盈 沈發慧等五人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及位及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢請問各位委員 今天會議記錄有什麼錯誤與疑慮嗎沒有"},{"start":1732.871,"end":1748.001,"text":"議事錄確定我們繼續進行討論署行簽讀審查行政院涵送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單游盈隆為委員並為主任委員胡柏彥為委員並為副主任委員"},{"start":1748.901,"end":1767.209,"text":"黃文玲 李李仲 蘇嘉鴻 蘇紫橋及陳忠義 軍委委員請同意案依序分別審查由被提名人 迎龍胡被提名人 博焱黃被提名人 文玲李被提名人 李仲蘇被提名人 嘉鴻蘇被提名人 紫橋陳被提名人 忠義 宣讀完畢我們來介紹主席的委員跟行政機關列席的委員跟被提名人"},{"start":1786.826,"end":1807.007,"text":"我們先來第一位張志倫委員第二位劉錫廷委員現在進來我們的王鴻薇委員我們現在向正義秘書長張敦漢秘書長"},{"start":1811.314,"end":1816.475,"text":"中央選舉委員會主任委員被提名人游一龍副主任委員被提名人吳柏彥委員提名人比提名人黃文玲"},{"start":1834.541,"end":1842.286,"text":"委員比提名人李立忠委員比提名人蘇嘉鴻委員比提名人蘇志橋委員比提名人陳忠義主任必須謝美玲"},{"start":1863.717,"end":1874.106,"text":"我們行政院林署行政總署培訓考用處處長李花蘇你歡迎"},{"start":1888.137,"end":1895.403,"text":"立法院院會第11屆第4期第16次會議報告交付內政司法及法治兩個委員會審查中央委員會所提出的命令"},{"start":1910.723,"end":1914.604,"text":"兩委員會一位26級辦公廳會以前也已經完成本院各黨團隊被提名人的資格"},{"start":1925.309,"end":1952.296,"text":"事任性所提出的書面問題函請行政院轉致各備提名人經行政院函附各備提名人提出與相關的資料並以檢証於各黨團在案本案審查程序安排在28日、29日兩天一天"},{"start":1954.684,"end":1955.045,"text":"會議分配審查"},{"start":1961.484,"end":1986.661,"text":"本這個會議開始進行前行宣告以下事項先進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明及答詢依程序由行政院張秘書長及游盈隆先生分配說明後進行詢答"},{"start":1988.383,"end":2003.879,"text":"由榮榮先生撥分全部達成結束後 休訓10分鐘再進行提名人胡柏彥先生的署名與答詢程序與定管一樣 並釋放會議"},{"start":2010.325,"end":2033.473,"text":"會議進行的總統職項與程序分別進行比提名人黃文玲、李立中、蘇家鴻、蘇芝喬、陳宗義說明與答詢答詢的時間出席出席委員會六分鐘內席委員會四分鐘"},{"start":2038.835,"end":2044.402,"text":"本院的委員會議定期時間10點半一至本次會議沒有要處理臨時提案現在我們請行政委張秘書長進行說明"},{"start":2065.396,"end":2092.17,"text":"主席在場的各位委員各位先生女士媒體朋友大家早安今天立法院內政跟司法法制委員會聯席審查行政院所提名的七位中選會委員被提名人本人應邀這個列席報告宣感榮幸選舉罷免跟公民投票都是我國國民重要的參政權"},{"start":2093.479,"end":2118.513,"text":"也是憲法保障人民參與公共事務的基本權利台灣透過了一次次選舉罷免或者是公民投票逐步的深化我國的民主憲政為了貫徹憲法保障民主法治及人民參政的主旨總選會秉持超然中立 恪守中立的精神統籌辦理"},{"start":2120.814,"end":2144.737,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免及公民投票的事務持續鞏固公平公正公開的公共事務環境以確保國民意志的展現因此中選會運作是中華民國實現民主核心的機制以下僅就本次的提名作業做簡要的報告跟說明依照中選會組織法"},{"start":2146.496,"end":2174.398,"text":"第三條第一項規定中選會設置9到11個人其中一人為主任委員一人為副主任委員其他的委員7到9位那這次的提名也是依照中選會組織法來進行提名領選具有法證相關的專業經驗的公證人士來擔任委員中有同一個黨籍的不得超過委員總數的三分之一"},{"start":2176.906,"end":2202.011,"text":"那也跟大家報告跟說明依照中選會組織法的規定中選會除了主任委員跟副主任委員之外其餘經為兼職無給職那這次的提名也依照這樣的規定來進行跟辦理那麼第二個說明是中選會前主任委員李靖勇副主任委員陳昭健委員許惠峰 陳恩明 王韻如"},{"start":2203.277,"end":2218.411,"text":"徐亞芬等六人的任期已經在去年的11月3日屆滿另外委員蒙志成也因為個人的因素而提早請辭所以這一次行政院提名游英龍為委員並為主任委員"},{"start":2220.509,"end":2247.442,"text":"胡柏諺為副主任委員並為委員委員包括了黃文玲女士李李仲先生 蘇嘉鴻先生 蘇紫橋先生等六人那以上這六人的任期會依照相關的法令規定任期會到2029年的11月3日而且委員蒙志成的遺缺將由陳忠義接任任期會到明年的11月為止"},{"start":2249.471,"end":2272.93,"text":"那這次中選會的新任委員提名是依照中選會組織法第三條規定辦理滿足了三個法定的條件第一個滿足了中選會組法第三條第四項的規定提名了具有豐富專業學識或實務經驗的公正人士來進行第二個同一個黨籍的委員也不會超過三分之一在這次被提名人當中"},{"start":2274.324,"end":2302.163,"text":"僅有胡柏諺有時代力量的黨籍蘇嘉鴻教授有中國國民黨的黨籍那陳忠義前立委則是有民主進步黨的黨籍其他的四個人目前僅為無黨籍如果蒙大院通過所有的人事同意權後那麼加上目前現有的四位委員委員的有黨籍的同一黨籍的人數的比例不會超過法定的三分之一"},{"start":2303.339,"end":2324.114,"text":"那第三個經過這次提名作業的竊竭拒絕所有的七位被提名人均無中國戶籍也無外國戶籍或永久居留權也符合了相關的國籍的規範那以下也就這次七位被提名人的學經歷背景做簡單扼要的報告"},{"start":2326.991,"end":2355.059,"text":"那第一位是主任委員 並為委員游盈榮教授那大家對他很熟悉他是台灣民意基金會的董事長過去長期在學術界在東吳大學任教非常多年那在中央的行政經驗他不但擔任過過去行政研考會的副主任委員陸委會的特任副主任委員海基會的副董事長兼秘書長"},{"start":2356.874,"end":2382.131,"text":"也擔任過中選會的委員在政治學比較政治民意與投票行為政黨選舉等領域專業駐有專精那第二位是胡柏彥委員並為副主任委員胡柏彥教授現在是東吳大學法律系的教授專長是憲法行政法過去他也在不同的大學任教"},{"start":2383.598,"end":2410.681,"text":"也曾經擔任過許多中央部會的書院審議會或者是法規委員會的委員那他也曾經擔任過中選會書院委員會的委員對於中選會的業務也是非常的實務上也是非常的了解那第三位被提名人也是過去的資深的立委黃文林律師那黃文林律師的專長是法律及內政"},{"start":2412.284,"end":2437.106,"text":"曾經擔任過第八屆的立委也曾經擔任過多個仲裁協會的仲裁人在程序、主持、爭議處理方面有相當豐富的實務經驗第四位是李李仲教授李李仲教授是由中國國民黨所推薦的被提名人李教授現在是中華科技大學的專任教授"},{"start":2438.174,"end":2458.163,"text":"也是副校長專長是商業跟金融監理的法規公平法跟智慧財產權等多元的領域那他過去也曾經擔任過第七屆公平教育委員會的委員長期投入法學的研究兼具公共治理選務跟獨立機關的實務經驗"},{"start":2461.53,"end":2484.826,"text":"那第五位蘇嘉鴻教授也是中國國民黨所推薦的優秀的人選那蘇嘉鴻教授目前是福音科技大學的專任教授過去在中央他也曾經擔任過海委會國家海洋研究院海洋政策及文化研究中心的主任等職務現在也擔任許多地方政府"},{"start":2487.796,"end":2511.955,"text":"醫療爭議調解委員會跟醫事審議委員會的委員從中央到地方從理論到實務也具有豐富的經驗第六位是舒子喬教授那舒子喬教授是台灣民眾黨所推薦的被提名人那舒子喬教授是現任東吳大學政治系的教授專長是憲政體制選舉制度以及比較政治"},{"start":2514.367,"end":2542.916,"text":"長期研究我國的憲政制度跟選舉制度並著作等身有相當豐富的期刊跟論文那第七位被提名人是陳忠義前立委他目前是桃園市選委會的委員專長是法律曾經擔任升格之前的桃園縣的桃園市長也是立法院第五屆的立法委員資深立委"},{"start":2544.181,"end":2571.059,"text":"在地方不只有行政的經驗也擔任過長期的縣議員的職務具有豐富的中央跟地方的實務經驗相信也能夠為中選會無論是中央或者是地方的選舉事務能夠投注非常多的專業的貢獻那這次中選會的提名作業也感謝國民黨以及民眾黨"},{"start":2574.884,"end":2593.445,"text":"舉薦優秀的人才經過行政院審酌的考量秉持著韓納各黨推薦橫跨朝野背景兼具理論實務以及中央地方經驗這四個原則我們就相關的領域領選了七位"},{"start":2594.741,"end":2615.012,"text":"被提名人加上現有的四位中選會委員也都是學長巨優相信能夠為中選會籌辦選務注入專業全面的規劃跟運作思維持續深化中華民國台灣的民主法治體現主權在民希望"},{"start":2616.38,"end":2645.249,"text":"貴院所有的委員能夠理性審議予以支持 以上報告請各位委員先進指教 謝謝謝謝 感謝張秘書長的說明現在我們開始來進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明和答詢請被提名人游盈隆先生說明"},{"start":2659.629,"end":2684.209,"text":"王主席各位委員行政院張秘書長各位女士各位先生大家早安大家好我今天非常榮幸能夠以中選會主委被提名人的身份來國會的殿堂來接受各位的"},{"start":2686.331,"end":2715.252,"text":"提問不過一開始我沒有預期到說我還要做報告要做說明不過我簡單的講11月底我接受行政院的提名我是抱持著一個如臨深淵如履薄冰的心情接下這樣的一個提名我知道"},{"start":2717.011,"end":2743.566,"text":"中選會主委的工作是非常的艱鉅的中選會的工作不是常人所能夠理解但是中選會的工作關係到台灣民主的成敗所以承擔這樣的一個角色那是無比的沉重也無比的榮幸"},{"start":2747.267,"end":2751.749,"text":"我是懷抱理想跟使命感而來我希望為台灣民主做出貢獻在目前國內政局緊張政黨高度競爭的環境裡面中選會要如何"},{"start":2776.061,"end":2801.632,"text":"做到讓各黨都能滿意讓所有的候選人能滿意讓選民能夠滿意是一個非常艱鉅的挑戰但我相信如果我獲得大院的同意支持未來我一定會"},{"start":2804.282,"end":2831.329,"text":"堅持絕對的超然中立客觀公正並且專業的精神和能力全力以赴希望中選會一個健全的中選會能夠在大院的支持之下早日的出現在國人眼前讓我們"},{"start":2833.166,"end":2854.518,"text":"我們2026的大選能夠順利成功讓我們2028的大選能夠順利成功中選會是這樣的一個角色我在這裡非常誠摯的也謙卑的要向我們的國會報告並且也請求讓中選會"},{"start":2864.349,"end":2891.091,"text":"人事案早日通過 讓中選會早日上路為大家做事 謝謝大家謝謝 我們現在請登記第一位 牛西庭委員質詢謝謝主席 請備題名人游教授請游教授"},{"start":2899.758,"end":2917.487,"text":"好早安林委員早這個您大部分我們認識游教授都是在新聞媒體上因為這個台灣民意基金會的這個民意調查也算是赫赫有名長時間的滾動提供了政治圈非常多攻打手邊的一個素材那大家在"},{"start":2918.726,"end":2945.287,"text":"這個看到游盈隆教授被列為中選會主委的提名人的時候大家當然是有一些意外也有很多問題想要請教那麼今天很高興有這樣一個機緣可以跟教授來做一下面對面的討論我問的第一個問題就是你應該如何確保啊這個如果有幸成為中選會主委啊因為你平常也評論非常多的一個政治的事務也做民意調查在基金會裡面有職務你怎麼樣確保這之間的分際可以非常的清楚你打算做哪一些的決定"},{"start":2948.396,"end":2973.935,"text":"謝謝牛委員我已經有了相當的覺悟擔任中選會主委也有一定程度的犧牲是要付出的我可能失去了自由我的意思是說失去評論台灣公開評論台灣政治的自由作為一個政治學者"},{"start":2975.23,"end":3004.095,"text":"我作為一個關心台灣的知識分子那樣的一個犧牲是重大的但是為了更高的目的為了更重大的目標我覺得我必須做這樣的歌聲一語雄長不能得見好 所以意思就是說不會再發表相關的評論民意調查等等也會離開基金會的職務是這樣的意思嗎如果大院能夠"},{"start":3005.266,"end":3026.884,"text":"通過中選會主委的人事同意權任命我將辭去台灣民意教育基金會的董事長也辭去董事我採取比法律更嚴格的標準做自我的要求非常好 謝謝"},{"start":3028.294,"end":3056.467,"text":"那麼我們再針對幾個常常我們在中選會這個平台做討論的題目跟教授做一下意見的交換這個目前立法院有很多的委員提案修正公職人員選罷法或者是不在籍投票的各種相關的一個草案那也有這個這個大家的版本不一樣但大部分的版本基本上都是限於所謂的境內移轉投票有關不在籍投票的部分換言之就是透過登記的部分我不見得要舟車勞頓的返鄉"},{"start":3057.967,"end":3086.897,"text":"我可以在就近的投票所去投別的選舉這是在自己戶籍所在地的這樣子的一個投票那我想請問一下被提名人立法院如果修正相關的法令新增了不在籍投票相關的制度限於國內移轉投票請問您會不會忠實的執行立法院通過的法律當然如果立法院通過了不在籍投票中選會只有依法行政全力以赴好 謝謝"},{"start":3088.103,"end":3114.416,"text":"那您覺得在您如果你有機會領導中選會啦您可能需要多少時間來做好境內移轉投票制度的相關準備工作我不知道這項立法到時候在立法院會如何通過整個制度的內容到底是怎麼樣我不清楚但是我也要就最近我從我們中選會"},{"start":3117.639,"end":3139.077,"text":"同仁那里所得到的许多的资讯我深深的感觉不在即投票是世界的潮流也是台湾许多人直觉上对的一个努力方向但是"},{"start":3140.732,"end":3170.098,"text":"當我們在講世界各國很多都採取了這個不在籍投票的時候台灣沒有感覺到自己落後了自己很慚愧我覺得那種心情是可以理解的我肯定那是一個進步的思維可是我們也不能夠脫離現實如果回到我們自己的國家的選舉制度"},{"start":3172.025,"end":3185.677,"text":"我們深入去看很快就會發現不在籍投票牽涉的是非常複雜的選舉的工程尤其是九合一尤其是在九合一地方選舉裡面"},{"start":3199.188,"end":3220.356,"text":"實施不在籍投票就現階段來講肯定是一個災難中選會已經提出來如果在九合一地方選舉辦不在籍投票將會造成將近九千種不同的選票在極端的狀況下所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":3224.028,"end":3245.234,"text":"很重要的一點我們喜歡看天邊的彩霞但不要踩壞了眼前的一大這個玫瑰讓我們的這個傲視世界的台灣選舉然後蒙城教授這個那到底是要執行還是不執行花多少時間準備"},{"start":3246.351,"end":3262.104,"text":"所以我剛剛講原則上我剛剛已經講但是願意執行但需要很多時間準備實際上要通過什麼樣的制度內容目前您知道嗎還是您可以現在告訴我我可以做回應當然這個有很多不同的版本"},{"start":3262.684,"end":3284.121,"text":"這個如果你有幸擔任中學會主委相信還有很多討論的機會但因為時間有限我們還有問最後幾個問題因為我們的執政黨曾經表示如果施行不在籍投票會導致選民投票的信任消失會有作票的風險也曾經說會有讓中國大陸借選更加容易即便我們剛剛講的現在的不在籍投票的版本是國內的移轉投票"},{"start":3285.041,"end":3308.983,"text":"這樣子的一個說法你認同嗎在你領導下的中選會你如何去避免這個選務公信力下降的問題你該如何把這個東西帶領好你真的覺得不再投票會有作票的風險嗎請你簡要回答就好選務行政的公信力是非常重要甚至是最重要的讓選民相信選舉的結果是公正的那但是呢"},{"start":3311.833,"end":3333.844,"text":"實施不在籍投票最大的困難是來自於執行面在可行性我覺得境外的影響等等可能是比較其次比較其次還是在於選務整個在操辦選務過程中遇到的一些新政的困難那你有沒有信心可以逐步的解決我不要講一步到位"},{"start":3335.611,"end":3362.568,"text":"如果立法院提了一個中選會沒辦法執行的一個方案壓垮中選會我也沒辦法在這邊跟您保證說一定就能夠做得好如果這樣的話是不負責任的好 謝謝教授 因為今天時間有限不過我建議你 後面還有很多委員要就教就直接回答這樣子就好了 好吧好 這給你一點點提醒跟建議 祝你今天順利 謝謝"},{"start":3366.075,"end":3371.099,"text":"謝謝我們感謝牛西廷委員質詢 我們請張志倫委員好謝謝主席各位媒體各位官員大家早有請這個中選會主委提名人游盈榮教授請游教授"},{"start":3393.646,"end":3412.842,"text":"好 教授好首先恭喜你成為中選會被提名人也預祝你可以順利當選那教授容我稱你教授那教授過去這個本席對你的了解不管是從這個電視上或是一些民調當中去了解您"},{"start":3413.542,"end":3441.572,"text":"那當然您對這個在去年的時候針對於這個大罷免的亂象你也公開提出這個批評甚至非常誠實的說這是對民主的傷害您的說法是執政黨就是參與發動這場全面性無差別的大罷免企圖奪回國會主導權不僅是台灣民主主流的民意的反對也會被其他民主國家不能接受"},{"start":3442.031,"end":3462.637,"text":"所以這個意思就是說大罷免不是民主之光反而是台灣民主之恥這是您說的嗎是 我講過是 好 那本席在這邊必須要稱讚您就是你願意講真話的風骨本席予以高度肯定那這邊我本席也要特別講在台灣這個民主史上不管是選舉"},{"start":3463.997,"end":3487.444,"text":"罷免或是公投在選舉制度上其實是蠻完整的一個制度可是在罷免跟公投上過去產生出了很多問題尤其在罷免上就您的這個評論來講就是執政黨其實利用了罷免裡面很多的漏洞來去做一些這個政黨政治的一些對決跟一些操作所以本席想要這邊特別跟你請教尤其是在罷免"},{"start":3489.105,"end":3507.984,"text":"這個每一個民意代表當選一年內可不可以執行罷免的這個連署的時候其實這個法是無明文規定的可是會造成這個社會上的一個對立所以本席必須要說選舉投票是一個民主的行為可是罷免它是一個"},{"start":3509.164,"end":3537.713,"text":"政黨的一個對決而且造成社會分裂而且是長期會造成一個情熱的問題投票你投誰大家非常清楚嘛而且這是秘密投票大家不知道你投誰可是罷免如果你沒有去連署的話會造成無盡的情熱啊而且說你沒有罷免我遇到很多民眾跟我講說他就是不想要連署罷免可是被民眾這樣子要求說一定要罷免要去簽連署還有一些攤販跟我講說他如果沒有去連署罷免他會人家會跟他恐嚇說"},{"start":3538.613,"end":3560.431,"text":"你這樣子我的生意讓你做不下去喔所以我覺得在當選一年內去做這樣子的這個罷免的連署喔其實就是現在整個制度上的一個漏洞那我看到你的報告裡面也有想說你未來會倡議說不能去進行這樣子一個動作請問你有沒有一些具體的做法或是未來可能會跟內政部去討論這樣的事情以目前的制度來看這個對於"},{"start":3568.07,"end":3594.737,"text":"罷免的規範是在選完一年之後也就是說當選一年之後才能夠進行罷免但是法律沒有禁止社會對就是說有相關的罷免的言論主委你同意這樣子這個不說言論是大家言論自由可是進行連署的一個方式您自己本身也是不贊成的對吧"},{"start":3594.977,"end":3616.751,"text":"我不贊成連署因為可以倡議那是言論自由那但是如果這個進行連署的話那就會對於我們想培養的這樣的一個成熟的政治文化是有傷的"},{"start":3617.959,"end":3635.172,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝教授教授你講的我覺得其實就是我們的心聲為什麼因為其實當時這個連署的一個過程造成社會分裂而且很多民眾其實被情的恐嚇這樣子的狀況其實非常的不好那也希望說未來你有機會擔任主委的時候也要多倡議這樣的行為變成說謝謝"},{"start":3637.854,"end":3656.091,"text":"那第二個我相信很多委員今天都有在跟你請教就是有關於不在籍投票的一個部分那不在籍投票其實目前其實我覺得這是非常重要因為現在就針對很多在投票所的工作人員他們其實有時候他們現在也是可以不在籍投票是嗎"},{"start":3657.892,"end":3675.62,"text":"所以現在的行之有年就是很多的工作人員其實在投票所的時候他們是可以進行不在籍投票所以本席有看到你的報告裡面寫說未來可行不在籍投票的順序第一個是移轉投票針對限定境內或身份特殊或者是戶籍地"},{"start":3676.44,"end":3697.195,"text":"在外的一些選務人員未來可以來考慮或者是在特定身份的不在意投票比如說這個援助民族或是服勤的警消人員等等我覺得這兩點我覺得非常重要因為第一個很多的公務人員或是警消人員其實他們的工作地跟戶籍地是不一樣的地方所以"},{"start":3698.115,"end":3725.265,"text":"這個部分本席也支持非常強烈支持您這樣的主張那是不是有一個期程說如果是不是可以先通過比如說我們一般的這個公務人員或是警消人員他們可以先來辦理這樣子的一個不在籍投票是不是可以請您回答是根據中選會最近的這個研究跟思考中選會是建議"},{"start":3726.646,"end":3746.421,"text":"不在籍投票先从单一的公民投票开始实施然后逐步的累积经验之后进一步推广到各项选举所以就这个角度来讲我觉得这样的一个态度是神圣的"},{"start":3746.969,"end":3766.956,"text":"是負責任的所以未來是不是能夠什麼時候哪一年能夠有一次公民投票然後在公民投票裡面試行不在籍投票然後我覺得那會是一個很重要的開始"},{"start":3767.486,"end":3790.026,"text":"好 了解 就是先從公民投票先起然後之後可能再就不特定人再來就是可能有進步有機會可以全面好 那我也希望主委這邊加速來實行那最後一個問題其實 針對其實當時我們這個立法院其實有決議一個這個公投的一個主題叫做反廢死"},{"start":3791.067,"end":3813.73,"text":"公投那當時是被中選會來就是否定這樣子的這個題目那因為當時這個議題有對很多民眾來講是非常的重要因為當時大家看到很多的這個殺人事件覺得說這樣現在的現在的民進黨政府就是不願意對現在比如說一些的案件去這個判死刑所以當然民眾覺得很"},{"start":3814.591,"end":3842.329,"text":"不能接受所以當時立法院才有這樣子的一個提案然後沒有想到被當時的中選會給否決那我想要請問主委當然你們否定也沒有當時你們有自己的理由啦那是不是針對這些民眾所關心的重要的這個公投的議題未來是不是有一些可以大家可以溝通的機會而不是說中選會直接把立法院提出的這些公投的主題直接給把它否定掉是 這是一個很複雜的問題我覺得"},{"start":3845.164,"end":3872.537,"text":"未來應該要多做溝通我覺得會比較好否則這裡面牽扯到太多複雜的問題沒有溝通的話引起強烈反彈對社會也不好好 謝謝教授聽到非常開心有機會第一次跟你這樣子面對面的質詢也期待你可以未來有機會可以當我們中選會的主委謝謝你 謝謝"},{"start":3878.535,"end":3899.786,"text":"謝謝我們感謝張志榮委員質詢我們家張宏祿委員我請我們的游主委加油教授"},{"start":3908.713,"end":3922.902,"text":"首先質詢前還是要稱老師好啦好 張委員好游教授是我大學的老師其實我很多的這個"},{"start":3926.298,"end":3946.306,"text":"這個政治學的東西都是游教授教導我的所以今天這樣問我是有點尷尬但是還是要問我想請問一下很多的委員也都有在關切這個不在即投票"},{"start":3947.066,"end":3967.352,"text":"但不在一起投票其實分了很多種大家現在一直在講一直在講其實慢慢的好像聚焦在移轉投票台灣現在大家一直慢慢聚焦在移轉投票其實我們中選會辦的就是選政的工作我們的選務的工作其實都是地方選委會在第一線在辦"},{"start":3968.892,"end":3992.427,"text":"那選政的工作我們就是說我想要請教游教授就是說其實台灣現在已經有部分的移轉投票我們投開票所的工作人員就有移轉投票那如果貿然的"},{"start":3994.111,"end":4020.493,"text":"要大規模的這個移轉投票我個人 我一個很擔心的問題我想不出解方也沒有任何人可以提出任何解方未來如果移轉投票變成是選政的一個改變的話我可不可以指定某些人去某個投開票所我去那邊投票跟開票"},{"start":4021.983,"end":4033.192,"text":"會不會有這種可能發生要看選區吧要看選區如果我為什麼要這樣講會變成買票"},{"start":4039.68,"end":4063.488,"text":"買票的人 我要求你收了我的錢你去特定的投開票所投票我買幾票 你沒有開出來幾票你就是給我跑票未來會發生這種情況如果發生這種情況我不知道各位被提名人你們有沒有解方"},{"start":4065.229,"end":4085.023,"text":"我相信目前都沒有解方啦我不知道教授您的看法我這樣講好了不再急投票我剛剛說的是世界的潮流民主國家採行不再急投票非常多那我們台灣在這方面其實已經落後很久了"},{"start":4091.98,"end":4120.609,"text":"所以要迎頭趕上我覺得在道理上是說得過去的不在即投票你讓許多無法返鄉的人去在他居住地投票這說起來社會上普遍也是會贊成的但是我也同意張委員剛剛所說的這可能會產生很多的問題包括你說的買票"},{"start":4122.754,"end":4140.047,"text":"這是因為我們台灣從來沒有實施過不在籍投票所以我們不知道會碰到什麼情況所以在這樣的情況底下事先當然應該做好非常周全的研究調查"},{"start":4142.133,"end":4167.047,"text":"然後考量各種因素然後再來進行我覺得目前中選會所提出的這樣的一個解決方式我覺得是可行的就是說我們要循序漸進不是一步到位我們一開始就在九合一選舉裡面全面性的弄不在即投票這個是太"},{"start":4169.86,"end":4192.07,"text":"太大膽而且太冒險的作為報復平和不足為訓是不是可以未來從公民投票開始先從那裡開始實施然後逐步的累積經驗然後解決了"},{"start":4193.513,"end":4205.585,"text":"我們社會或者是很多人們的疑慮我覺得這樣子分階段一步一步的走會是比較好的做法我也是這麼認為我覺得我們先從公投先對視"},{"start":4210.39,"end":4228.489,"text":"對勢來移轉投票 為什麼呢我也覺得這個不再急投票很多的國家都這樣做那台灣要不要跟著做我覺得這是一個很崇高的理想我也不反對但台灣有特殊的買票文化"},{"start":4229.471,"end":4248.428,"text":"美國會買票嗎不會吧對不對但台灣這個買票文化我們從報紙上就看得非常的清楚到處都有在買票幾十年來都是這樣那如果我們對人的選舉也實施移轉投票"},{"start":4250.117,"end":4272.243,"text":"我們的對岸中國我跟你講透過大規模的買票這個是對台灣一個非常嚴重的一個災難所以我個人我是認為對全國性的公投事情我們可以先來做做看為什麼我要這樣我必須再說我辦過選舉我是"},{"start":4275.958,"end":4294.054,"text":"縣選委會的總幹事我當了四年從村里長的選舉到總統的選舉我都親自辦過我跟你講 選務的複雜程度啊超乎大家的想像我們連一張選票連那個有汙損或印得不好"},{"start":4295.563,"end":4315.906,"text":"我們要一張一張選票這樣去看從頭到尾看到尾那個每個人壓力有多大如果你要移轉投票我跟你講問題太多了我要光說一個你連投票通知單 你選舉公報他要移轉去那裡 要誰去送到時候他說我沒有收到"},{"start":4317.217,"end":4338.15,"text":"這個有很多技術性的問題所以我必須要說移轉投票不是不行但不能照進照進會把台灣馬上一次垮掉如果一次選舉的不公平大家以後對選委會這個公信力就不在我常講一句選委會"},{"start":4340.034,"end":4356.856,"text":"如果你要辦選舉我多給你人多給你錢很多技術性是可以克服的但公信力是最重要的一件事選務公信力三個字是最重要的所以我還是覺得主委教授"},{"start":4358.459,"end":4375.749,"text":"如果你的看法也是一樣就是從事情先來我覺得應該是先朝這個方向不可以一次太躁進不知道教授的看法我完全同意你的看法我覺得這樣做對台灣是比較好的好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張宏祿委員接受我們請黃姐的委員"},{"start":4395.336,"end":4399.985,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請游盈隆被提名人加油教授"},{"start":4408.376,"end":4428.723,"text":"好黃委員好是好 邱董事長先跟您請教這個不在即投票其實您剛剛已經有提到一個重點就是說不在即投票雖然世界各地有很多國家在施行但是我們不一定要這樣冒進而且如果直接用九合一大選來貿然的進行的話會是一場災難"},{"start":4430.143,"end":4445.269,"text":"這是您剛剛的論調那我在這邊也想要附和這個論點因為其實大家也知道說選舉的公信力是最重要的那選舉如果我們九合一大選直接開始施行不在籍投票的話您剛剛是說會增加9000種選票是嗎就選票的種類來講是將近9000種"},{"start":4452.89,"end":4481.663,"text":"是的這就是一個非常重大的技術性的問題所以我在這邊想請教的是你們有沒有先算過如果九合一大選只要直接使用不在籍投票會要增加幾倍的經費幾倍的人力多少個投開票所因為我還沒有上任我只是努力的去收集相關的訊息我不知道中選會是不是已經評估出來我目前手邊沒有這樣的資訊"},{"start":4482.813,"end":4508.899,"text":"好那我在這邊先提供一些資訊喔在2021年內政部其實有大概統計過就是說如果這一些就學就業沒有涉戶籍那可能會因為不在籍投票而可能可以投票的人大概第一名是在雙北大概就有37.4萬人那第二名會在台中有26.5萬人第三名是桃園有26萬人第四名是台北有18.5萬人"},{"start":4510.479,"end":4532.57,"text":"那如果這些人通通來申請這個不在籍投票大概就是會增加大概百萬人以上那這個是2021年的數字那台北市的選委會當時也有出來說光是這個投開票所可能就要增加三倍以上那如果現在年底就要來做這件事情的話您覺得可行嗎您就一個選務機關的考量來說選籍"},{"start":4538.315,"end":4559.823,"text":"2026地方選舉是11月28號舉行今天正好1月28號 就是10個月左右我覺得直覺上是不可行的事實上最近中選會也曾經行文給各地方的選舉委員會"},{"start":4562.025,"end":4582.059,"text":"各地方選舉委員會也都回報關於不在籍投票地方的態度沒有一個選委會是同意在這一次採行不在籍投票的所以地方事實上也是挫雷彈"},{"start":4583.815,"end":4613.515,"text":"是嗎因為就我剛剛說的光是台北就說要增加三倍了更不用說其他像是新北台中這一些可能不在籍的人口有大概三四十萬人的這一些選區喔那所以我覺得這當然是一個很大的技術性的挑戰但是話說回來剛剛其實有一句話我其實沒有很認同是剛剛這個有董事長說我們台灣沒有實施不在籍投票跟國際上相比來說是落後的"},{"start":4614.255,"end":4642.064,"text":"那我必須要說其他的國家跟台灣的情況大大的不同啊你不能拿台灣的情況跟世界各地來比啊請問其他國家有中共借選嗎有一些想要試圖來破壞我們台灣民主的這些境外勢力嗎沒有嘛那再來其他的國家有像台灣這樣經歷過這些什麼中立事件等等買票做票的過去選舉舞弊的歷史嗎"},{"start":4642.924,"end":4663.144,"text":"也沒有嘛所以台灣的過去民主的歷史是非常艱辛的我們是這樣一步一步大家靠著人民的信任人民的爭取那我相信游董事長過去也是經過這些民主的事件努力撐起台灣的民主的所以一直拿國外來跟台灣比較我覺得非常的不公平"},{"start":4663.664,"end":4677.66,"text":"那台灣現在需要的是一個非常可信穩定而且有這個選舉公正性的民主制度所以任何的變革我認為都必須要在非常的可信而且公正的基礎上來進行選務的變革沒有不行"},{"start":4680.683,"end":4706.652,"text":"但是前提非常非常的重要因為台灣的民主很辛苦我們是這樣撐起來的所以在這邊還是拜託我們這個游董事長如果要回答說不再投票是國際的趨勢的時候拜託想想台灣自己特殊的歷史拜託想想台灣過去是怎麼走過來的所以不要一味的說要跟國際上來比較這真的不是一朝一夕可以做到的"},{"start":4706.952,"end":4720.846,"text":"那最後會有一點時間我跟您請教這個公投綁大選因為過去有董事長一直都是支持公投綁大選的所以在這邊想請教那如果您未來上任之後您還是支持公投綁大選嗎"},{"start":4722.332,"end":4740.66,"text":"我當然支持公投綁大憲而且也沒有不支持的空間因為法律已經修正了所以我在這邊就要請教的是沒錯因為這個藍白還是強行的又再次通過了嘛那我要請教的是那您要怎麼務實的解決過去2018發生的邊開票邊投票的問題開票到半夜三點的問題以及這些因為人綁事而造成這個沒有辦法好好的討論公投議題"},{"start":4751.844,"end":4778.079,"text":"以上這些問題直接民主是民進黨的核心價值我過去二十幾年來當我是一個民進黨黨員的時候我實際的參與相關的事務無數的民主前輩為了能夠實現公投犧牲奉獻他們的青春生命自由"},{"start":4779.409,"end":4801.982,"text":"所以公投是一個民進黨的核心價值是所有的民主國家應該要追求的是的 我們都認同我們也非常支持公投制度所以我在這邊跟您請教的是如何防範重演2018邊開票邊投票以及開票到半夜三點以及這些可能會影響選舉結果的可能的情況再度出現"},{"start":4803.571,"end":4831.354,"text":"2018年是一個噩夢而且這個噩夢的形成有一些條件支持其中一個那您如何預防未來不會再重演呢這是一個選務機關最重要的工作我可以說明一下嗎2018那一次有十項公投這十項公投選委會公告之後一個多月而已就要投票"},{"start":4832.614,"end":4852.905,"text":"所以造成整個秩序大亂 這是其中一個所以這一次 經過這幾年來朝野的共同體認之後修法所以將公告之後一個月就投票 改成三個月這是一個很重要的改變第二個"},{"start":4854.778,"end":4877.605,"text":"以前辦理那麼龐大的選務一半法律規定一半是要軍公教人員現在也修正成三分之一只需要三分之一所以我在這邊希望您可以承諾既然公投綁大選是您的立場也是您的責任那未來希望你可以承諾在你的任內絕對不會再發生2018的噩夢我們盡力而為這個要請你保證謝謝"},{"start":4883.663,"end":4898.925,"text":"好 謝謝備題名人 謝謝黃建委員好 接下來有請王美惠委員主席男嘉游教授有請備題名人 謝謝"},{"start":4905.129,"end":4917.502,"text":"王委員好你好在這幾天的過程當中我們有看到你的履歷剛才你說到你人家告訴你要做檔門這個節目的時候也有一邊高興"},{"start":4925.197,"end":4947.497,"text":"也有一邊為了理想而走因為在這個過程當中我們的選舉委員會中選會是要有中立的在剛才本席所聽的好歡樂的就是覺得大家都想你長久以來是在民意教育基金會裡面擔任當事長"},{"start":4950.834,"end":4955.083,"text":"剛才有很多委員請教說你可以當時時你說你如果"},{"start":4962.05,"end":4975.673,"text":"這個人事案過 過得馬上死因為我覺得好的理想雖然是夢死 有的人也說你每天都在批評民進黨那是怎麼來做這個因為我覺得有擔當的執政黨裡面"},{"start":4987.495,"end":5010.684,"text":"應該無論他是我什麼人 他是北平什麼人今天我們要做政府單位是看他的認知所以在這裡我保證 我在這裡也是國民黨也是我們的朋友任何一黨都是我們的朋友為了理想 為了建設"},{"start":5012.125,"end":5018.711,"text":"我們都要做法表這是最好的 如果不做朋友 我們也沒辦法不可能說法表當中 你的總選委跟你不共同 不一樣的想法 你就不採納他的意見跟他的想法 大家討論之後 才可以"},{"start":5036.987,"end":5047.465,"text":"有好好的問題出來所以在這個過程當中最重要最重要在那裡大家差不多都說不再舉投票高雄你有說"},{"start":5050.014,"end":5055.615,"text":"可以為公道開始但是在這個過程中你剛才有回答過跟我們是怎麼理會一般人會亂吵吵會這麼多人會開票的時候又有人又要投票因為這種我相信在你的代言之下以後可能不會再來發生也不是可能而已一定不會再來發生"},{"start":5077.742,"end":5092.223,"text":"在不在一起投票的時候有很多人歡樂的就是像我們的孫悟寧原譬如他在黨區做孫悟寧原像我自己來說"},{"start":5094.005,"end":5106.135,"text":"他在當局的補考在當局的 但是他算不領完譬如是在第一樓的票箱第一樓的票箱不是他應該到的地方 因為他有申請嘛但是在這個過程裡面 你覺得他最高興的就是議員都一樣"},{"start":5119.859,"end":5128.343,"text":"市長都一樣縣和里長不一樣他這張票如果沒投出來是人家縣的里長還是他沒投里長大家都知道所以告訴你"},{"start":5136.208,"end":5163.467,"text":"在這裡面我就是說我們教育也好 全國也好我們今天是要講全國的 但是我是批論這個情形給你聽因為我們中華民國的台灣的選舉是大家最近都認為最好的雖然是很古早 但是改進到有夠好的因為我們那些黨議會"},{"start":5165.288,"end":5175.031,"text":"就是我們有一個派出兵在派出兵當中有時候會應用到選舉因為我常常說好的人才認真發表的民意代表我們一定鼓勵他當選但是在這個過程當中不再是投票有時候會去應用到選舉的結果"},{"start":5192.675,"end":5198.517,"text":"所以在這要問教授不再審投票本身跟你說因為有時候選票票數也很多也有現在都回到選票票數也有但是在選票票數你如果在本層第三張很多選票票的人在那裡大他不覺得什麼他如果兇勇去申請一個"},{"start":5219.742,"end":5225.848,"text":"我自己人都沒有在那裡的票檔我今天的票投出來這樣才算閉路投票啦告訴你來會談我所有擔心的事情我們大家來做參考因為未來這可能"},{"start":5241.321,"end":5260.808,"text":"也會逐一去改善來翁委員所擔心的一個秘密投票可能破功出問題這確實是一個問題要去注意另外就是說你一開始的計較說我批評民進黨很多我在這裡向翁委員報告"},{"start":5268.907,"end":5274.112,"text":"我都是九十輪輸 沒特別去批評民進黨我也是批評共產黨 對啦我也是批評共民黨 高師傅我現在你可能 國會有我的意思高師傅我現在是說以我民進黨的 有人說跟你們去提名這一點點要批評你"},{"start":5288.886,"end":5291.388,"text":"我來說民進黨會出的任財不分什麼 不可以說跟他批評我們說我們不好我們就不體面他啊 因為他有他的專財嘛我剛才是說這樣 因為我認為很多人都說過的 欠費到買廢人"},{"start":5313.084,"end":5315.006,"text":"所以我要跟你說的就是有這個生活我相信你也聽到了你說的說 你說的事實但是有的人覺得說有需要"},{"start":5327.723,"end":5332.33,"text":"這樣做嘛這時候我覺得說要讓這個國家愛好像你這個領袖一定很讚的啦我這時候要問你不再只投票你要怎麼去改善本縣兩個"},{"start":5345.047,"end":5347.41,"text":"會擔憂啦 憂及濫捕人如果去到台北 我再跟你說有兩個地方有很多嫁給人 那都沒差那挑剔憂心裡 我才剛才還說如果派出兵"},{"start":5359.977,"end":5365.02,"text":"我們的生活他有辦法用另外一個生活這個票房跟你們的小家庭你們兩個阿嬤去住而已這要怎麼處理這才是最重要的啦跟我是來講"},{"start":5375.93,"end":5377.872,"text":"前幾天我是想問是怎麼邀請你來 因為你有你的專長我認為批評不是壞的 批評可以讓一個人改變他的生活可以做得更好"},{"start":5395.288,"end":5398.891,"text":"這是在我都覺得很關鍵的像我 我有時候也會覺得說我們做得不好應該要怎麼做才對啦來謝謝黃委員的指教 全份了解這個不在即投票 我剛才也已經跟大家報告在這裡再說一次就是說"},{"start":5419.181,"end":5436.827,"text":"不在即投票是一個很複雜的事情不是說發作就去做那是會造成很大的問題像這災難所以要循序漸進中商會有提出一個完整的草案給鄉長"},{"start":5438.207,"end":5459.941,"text":"行政議也通過 交給立法院所以是不是可以用風雄來努力累積經驗來盡量檢討它可能造成的問題包括翁議員你所說的 閉閉投票這種很重要的事情對 剛才我還有兩三個問題我想我這幾天的時間也夠了待會我們再來探討 希望"},{"start":5466.032,"end":5483.496,"text":"我們可以做得更好因為我的想法就是不管你是來自在座的也有很多特等都提出的人才所以我們應該是樂觀青春可以讓中選會加入去做更好的事情不是在這裡說分什麼黨的 怎樣怎樣"},{"start":5490.501,"end":5503.186,"text":"這樣是不應該的 如果要問什麼東西在座的都不可能今天來到這裡 以上謝謝王美惠委員 那要提名人請回交接一下我們這裡陳佩儀委員之行"},{"start":5520.031,"end":5549.723,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請貝提銘仁貝提銘仁好董事長早安我剛剛坐在現場聽了非常多的委員跟您請教了關於不再急投票你的立場非常的清楚就是不再急投票如果貿然實施會是一個大災難那我們就接下來看大家都沒有想到的一個問題我覺得非常的可怕"},{"start":5550.182,"end":5568.566,"text":"不確定董事長你有沒有注意到在去年11月我們立法院在藍白惡意強力主導之下通過了公投綁大選而且他說投票案公告成立後一到六個月就要舉行公投這個是針對人民的部分"},{"start":5569.006,"end":5590.619,"text":"可是呢公投法又有規定董事長他說如果是總統交付或是立法院或是行政院提案的特殊公投案不適用相關的頻率跟日期的規定就是沒有一定要兩年才能辦一次所以我可不可以假設一個情況請中選會想一想也請董事長你考慮一下怎麼回答第一個"},{"start":5591.139,"end":5617.14,"text":"假設今天真的有立法院藍白黨團惡意再提出一個在今年年底大選以前就來提出一個立法院本身提出的公投案然後逼你們中選會因為剛剛主委你一直被提名人你一直說你支持公投綁大選那我就看年底選舉的時候只要立法院藍白黨團對中選會提出相關的公投案不管是什麼主題"},{"start":5618.701,"end":5640.063,"text":"那你們就要處理喔可是你剛剛跟我說你支持公投綁大選這是第一個情況那年底就會有九合一大選加上公投綁大選這是第一個困境第二個困境假設我在想像一現在網路上有非常多人在帶風向跟有相關於情討論相關幕僚可不可以讓我問完讓我問完因為第二個問題比較難"},{"start":5642.23,"end":5656.933,"text":"好 第二個問題第二個問題就是假設有人他發起一個運動叫做我假設年底真的有兩種票可以投一個是公投票一個是九合一大選票可是我只申請移轉不再期投票部分我只申請公投"},{"start":5657.834,"end":5679.416,"text":"的部分可是我不在我那個九合一大選我還是繼續在我的原戶口地方投然後呢我就開始在網路上製造一個輿論叫做是你們中選會為難我你害我只能放棄某一種選票因為可能我一個票在台北一個票在花蓮可是假設我當天又沒有辦法兩地趕著投票那他不去問他自己為什麼要操作這種行為"},{"start":5680.037,"end":5706.11,"text":"他就會問中選會假設您真的當選主委之後這絕對會是一個難題請不要說我可能過度惡意的想像我必須說現在的台灣社會確實有非常多人是刻意要製造混亂製造國內的不團結甚至在這種看起來像民生事務上給相關行政機關你們造成困難就算中選會是一個獨立機構請問被候選人被提名人你怎麼看 謝謝"},{"start":5707.851,"end":5734.902,"text":"首先關於公投綁大選的大是大非的問題他不是大是大非不好意思董事長我認為他是一個相關配套因為辛苦的是我們基層的選務人員就像您剛剛一開始有說他會動到非常非常多選票的規劃從2004年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選也都很順利的舉行了"},{"start":5736.858,"end":5760.65,"text":"2008年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選國民黨相對也提出兩個四個案也順利辦完了公投綁大選今天碰到的問題是2018的那一場災難因為那一場災難所以大家想說怎麼樣避免災難重現"},{"start":5762.079,"end":5790.738,"text":"我剛剛跟大家報告說 其中2018年為什麼是獨特的我也希望它是獨特的 不會再發生了那是因為它件數這麼多 十個然後又是在中選會公告一個月多一點的時間馬上進行投票 所以整個選務大亂所以在這種情況底下 我覺得"},{"start":5793.272,"end":5803.322,"text":"抱歉讓我這樣講西方有一句話不要倒洗澡水連嬰孩一起倒掉意思就是說"},{"start":5813.82,"end":5822.482,"text":"公投是重要的跟選舉綁在一起利益甚佳而且過去的經驗也證明說是可以沒有問題"},{"start":5823.957,"end":5848.674,"text":"所以我剛才進一步跟您請教因為我時間有限我等一下會被主席請下台所以我剛剛問假設有人立法院提案就要在今年大選的時候他真的就有公投題目可以一起投然後又有一群選民假設他真的要惡意操作製造台灣內部的分裂跟不團結氣氛那我就申請我的公民投票部分我可能在AD可是我的九合一大選我還是回到我的戶籍地"},{"start":5849.034,"end":5866.814,"text":"然後到最後說是你們中選會害他不得不拋棄其中某一種投票的權利請問我們怎麼預防這個問題我認為現在的困境就是各種荒謬的狀況真的都很有可能在台灣發生從立法院開始到很多不同黨籍的委員尤其是在野黨的委員"},{"start":5867.655,"end":5886.841,"text":"斷了製造非常多分裂跟惡意的這種對話跟論述所以我必須要提出這麼看似很荒謬的問題但是不可能因為只要是立法院提案或是行政院或是總統交付特殊的提案他就可以不用受兩年頻率這個限制是 我也很希望這種很獨特的狀況不會發生"},{"start":5889.002,"end":5905.577,"text":"但如果發生了呢我也希望不要發生那如果發生我也希望不要發生目前這個所以主委您聽被提名的聽懂我的意思了對不對我當然充分了解您意思中選會公告之後三個月目前新的法律規定是這樣子"},{"start":5906.4,"end":5935.477,"text":"對啊所以他只要在下個會期立法院只要有人惡意要操作這個題目我們立法院真的就可以提出一個公投提案然後逼你們中選會表態你們要不要支持這個公投提案讓他走入公投然後年底的時候就公投綁大選我們沒辦法處理政治問題中選會處理行務問題那所以我剛剛說嘛好那假設回到人民我剛剛的意思就是說我陳培餘的戶籍如果在花蓮我就回去花蓮投九合一可是我公投的題目我就把它移轉到台北我住的地方"},{"start":5935.882,"end":5958.645,"text":"那最後我創造一個輿論跟氛圍就是是你們中選會害我不得不拋棄其中一種選票因為就是在去年藍白惡意主導公投綁大選硬要這樣通過所以我認為更多的惡意操作都是有可能的那我基於一個負責任的民意代表我認為我有需要跟被提名先討論這個問題當然相關的惡意的做法可能不是"},{"start":5959.065,"end":5977.607,"text":"在您的想像當中但是我現在就先提出這個疑問當然我相信後續的很多討論跟配套假設在事件發生之後真的要拜託你們假設你們都能夠成功通過被提名然後成為中選會的委員當然這就是你們要頭痛的事情但我想我身為一個民主的後輩過去看您非常多民主的成就"},{"start":5977.947,"end":6000.545,"text":"我必須要在這裡跟您報告過去這兩年來在這一屆立法院確實就很有可能有相關惡意的操作那甚至有相關的支持者就予以配合他真的就會出現我的公投票在台北而我的九合一回到花蓮然後我就說是你們中選會害我只能投其中一種票以上這是我給您的建議好 我們會留意這方面的情況好 謝謝"},{"start":6002.891,"end":6014.934,"text":"謝謝我們感謝陳培宇執行我們現在吳石瑤立委執行謝謝主席辛苦了有請我們有備提名人現在有備提名人"},{"start":6030.526,"end":6032.708,"text":"我想我破題非常清楚當政治越紛擾的時候"},{"start":6049.464,"end":6078.306,"text":"中選會的選務就要越公正超越黨派而且要守憲合法這是每一個從政人員我想未來大家有機會如果通過同意權我們在宣誓的時候的誓詞就是於誓以至誠恪遵憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使職權所以超越黨派跟守憲合法是重要的下一頁"},{"start":6080.321,"end":6097.775,"text":"我這邊列出來私藥自己認為的成功的選務的三要素他當然要是公正的他也是要效率的他更要能夠變明這是選務成功的三要素我也認為中選會的委員的四個要件獨立行使職權"},{"start":6099.116,"end":6128.102,"text":"基於專業而且要能夠公正更要首先合法我的選務三要素跟中選會委員的四要件我們未來的這個主委提名人游老師應當都認可吧有沒有補充的完全認可好謝謝我要跟您報告思堯在努力的面向不談政治中選會有很多可以做得更好導入design thinking不曉得老師您對於design thinking有什麼樣的理解"},{"start":6130.72,"end":6157.111,"text":"Design Thinking沒關係 我來替您說明好了賈伯斯曾經說Design is not how it looksDesign is about how it works也就是Design Thinking不只是大家說設計美學事實上它是以使用者為切入點讓整個事情更有效率而且可以解決問題"},{"start":6158.669,"end":6175.842,"text":"所以我曾經因為台灣設計研究院是思堯在任內催生的一個新設的國家的組織透過設計的導入來攪動我們的公共政策也提升公共服務的效能跟品質所以設計院成立之後我們去跟很多部會敲敲門"},{"start":6177.063,"end":6191.602,"text":"我也帶著設計院去向前主委李敬勇先生敲敲門希望能夠導入Design Thinking讓我們的選務更進步更親民更有效率所以這是我當時2021年拜訪李前主委的時候來下一頁"},{"start":6193.106,"end":6222.486,"text":"而我們改變了什麼我希望未來的中選會的委員們都能夠持續來推動吳思瑤催生中選會CES設計院投入我們改革了選舉的很多的更進步更變明也更美學的這些做法第一個在投票動線的優化左邊是before右邊是after他更讓大家在有限的空間的移動更有效率就是design的導入"},{"start":6223.786,"end":6248.002,"text":"他在選舉公報的優化上 過去很多人說選舉公報要這麼細膩 排版就是非常的unfriendly所以我們找了設計師design thinking以後after是在後面非常清楚讓大家可以一覽所有候選人他的政見相關的學經歷這是設計導入的正向成果 下一頁"},{"start":6249.636,"end":6268.284,"text":"設計導入呢還包括這些標識系統的革新越美越清晰不會永遠都是標凱體不要永遠是中華民國美學而這樣的選舉美學我們獲得世界級的Good Design設計獎獲得亞洲最具影響力的設計獎"},{"start":6269.444,"end":6274.126,"text":"也獲得台灣的經典設計獎所以我希望未來的委員們都能夠持續的來優化這些design thinking導入我們的選務下一頁當然還包括 圈選票處我們真的也讓它更簡潔 更俐落 更好看而不是數十年如一日我們小時候真的投票就是這樣到現在立法院自己的圈選票處還是長一樣"},{"start":6294.796,"end":6308.22,"text":"是可以革新的我想先就這個正面的分享給大家我想主委大家應當都可以如果後續需要思堯很樂意再串聯設計界跟中選會合作主委未來的主委OK嗎我非常的"},{"start":6314.122,"end":6339.323,"text":"因為司法委員剛剛有繞英文我覺得這個就是中選會未來需要的中選會未來需要我是一個進步改革主義者所以任何能夠進步能夠改革的都是好的事情選舉更有效率選舉更美學選舉更變明然後大家對於選舉去投開票所的心情可能也好起來很好"},{"start":6341.304,"end":6365.775,"text":"讓我再講一句我沒有想到我在今天來立法院可以看到這些新的觀念我簡直是Unbelievable所以立法院是有認真問政優質進步的立委而不是只有毀憲亂政的黨團很好下一頁當然不在即投票是今天的重點我剛剛講的選舉的三要素"},{"start":6366.195,"end":6380.567,"text":"公正效率跟便民提案的民眾黨團顯然只著重在降低選民投票成成本的那個便民的思考但是對於公正性跟選舉的效率他會造成選務的混亂甚至影響秘密投票甚至"},{"start":6381.247,"end":6404.083,"text":"也或多或少有境外借選風險增高的疑慮產生對於整個投票民主制度的信任危機所以呢絕對不能先求有再求好我們都支持行政院的版本您剛剛也說公投先行嘛好這是我們共同立場我們希望未來大家一起來捍衛這樣子的做法下一頁而以"},{"start":6404.895,"end":6425.486,"text":"我們行政院去徵詢了這些執行者選務機關的代表對於不在籍投票欠缺配套的狀況之下是all say no21縣市認為現在可以上路的是0個縣市甚至連民眾黨提案黨團他們自己執政的新竹市也認為不可能"},{"start":6427.907,"end":6436.814,"text":"所以呢過半的縣市也都支持行政院的版本公投先行我希望我今天要多花一點時間為什麼要跟主席多爭取一點時間因為民眾黨團的不在即投票他們就是這一屆立法院的壞習慣近乎二讀啊"},{"start":6444.841,"end":6463.439,"text":"委員會沒有討論啊直接不翼而決啊很有可能這週搞不好禮拜五又拿出來表決了所以今天有這個機會跟大家討論我就是希望能夠把這些數據告訴國人告訴社會台灣沒有一個縣市的選務機關認為不在即投票現在可以上路"},{"start":6463.979,"end":6490.61,"text":"NO所以我們就要審慎公投先行是多數的共識下頁而我們以投票意願這是我做的其實台灣的選舉投票率都是七成以上對於這些已經有不在籍投票有不同的可能是電子郵票可能是境外投票不同的行使的這些不在籍投票的國家台灣的投票率都是高的"},{"start":6491.11,"end":6509.685,"text":"除了南韓 南韓有他這一次總統大選不同的政治社會經濟的背景所以說不再投票並不是等同於高投票意願的這個思維我要在這裡論述 在下一頁更重要的是 未來這是大家的事情我們要辦一個讓人民滿意的選舉"},{"start":6511.072,"end":6519.34,"text":"而你看看台灣目前選務的滿意度2024年總統立委選舉84%的人民滿意給各縣市的選委會跟中選會拍拍手2022地方選舉滿意度83.2%2020總統立委選舉滿意度86.9%唯一一次就是剛剛未來的這個主委候選人說的"},{"start":6537.396,"end":6557.089,"text":"災難的2018的那一次公投房大學滿意度是28不滿意度高達68.6%這更要讓我們看到人民的聲音好我跳到我最後一個主題好嗎對不起因為有民調專家我還是想問一下這一題主委"},{"start":6558.792,"end":6566.754,"text":"我一直叫您主委他未來的主委你認為在台灣中共競選境外勢力競選的嚴重嗎有這麼難回答嗎我坦白講作為一個嚴謹的政治學者來講我要回答的是說感覺上很嚴重"},{"start":6586.178,"end":6598.011,"text":"事實上政府沒有找到非常多的證據來證明它很嚴重所以我覺得我們應該審慎地去評估這件事情因為主席站起來證據在這裡 證據在這裡看清楚"},{"start":6602.446,"end":6618.943,"text":"法務部公布中國借選的手段境外資金的借選網路選舉的賭盤跟認知作戰假訊息的操作2024年被偵辦的依反滲透法的案件境外勢力借選117件287人這個不是證據嗎 主委 下一頁"},{"start":6626.317,"end":6639.833,"text":"而國民黨黨主席的選舉是自己自家的人跳出來批評的我就不再贅述了中國的借選變本加厲我們就是要欲提從寬料敵從嚴下一頁"},{"start":6643.735,"end":6659.098,"text":"各國都有韓國加拿大澳洲美國印度甚至在美國這種民主的國家中國可以利用製造假駕照的方式大量的協助中國的僑民去投票假駕照的方式"},{"start":6659.739,"end":6686.695,"text":"所以世界各國面對中國的借選都在進行ING的防範主委 我們不要掩耳盜鈴您是民調專家 我問您一個專業的問題現在都有民調禁制期在選舉前公布的日期您覺得現在是幾天 您知道嗎10天您認為如果要調整 同意嗎未嘗不可"},{"start":6687.675,"end":6704.173,"text":"未嘗不可 那調整到幾天是可以接受的幾天好您的我尊重 台灣是民主社會現在國民黨立委要調變三天啦太危險啦 太危險啦我們回到前一頁"},{"start":6705.868,"end":6720.12,"text":"我們看看喔中國受益記者與退休教授捏造9次不實民調遭判刑司法判刑張顯耀先生涉嫌受中國指示發布講民調介入選舉遭起訴這都是司法偵辦換言之為什麼66%民主國家有選舉的民調"},{"start":6723.123,"end":6723.343,"text":"太短"},{"start":6747.498,"end":6770.254,"text":"太短嗎所以就專業論專業我覺得我們今天做一個非常好的示範沒有政黨立場我們超越黨派就專業論專業我們期待每一個委員都是獨立的專業的首先合法的以及能夠公正行使職權的最後一個提醒您提醒主席拍謝下一頁公投的那個這一個"},{"start":6773.496,"end":6779.772,"text":"國民黨提出修公統法要用公民覆決來推翻憲判主委你認為呢"},{"start":6781.392,"end":6809.717,"text":"這會是一個高度爭議性的問題所以我剛剛說中學會委員要守憲合法不問黨派守憲合法是基本的底線憲法78條司法院統一解釋憲法之權憲法訴訟法38條所有的憲法判決人民各機關都要服從而人民就包括公投行使的這些主體人民釋字185號也說明了不容挑戰用任何方式來推翻憲判"},{"start":6810.237,"end":6835.906,"text":"公投法第二條也規定公投的實施要遵循憲法的規定我要提醒大家未來的立法院一再的毀憲亂政要用公投法的修正來凌駕憲法未來這個難題可能會落在各位委員你們在審查公投案的當下我要提醒不看黨派不看顏色守憲合法是我們每一個人宣誓就職"},{"start":6838.7,"end":6847.929,"text":"的誓詞請大家謹記在心好謝謝游老師我今天多次稱呼您主委不好意思僭越了被提名人游盈隆先生我們一起加油謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳思堯委員質詢我們請黃建斌召委質詢抱歉讓你等很久謝謝"},{"start":6869.185,"end":6878.691,"text":"好 謝謝召委 主席我們先有請我們貝提名人游盈隆先生上台貝提名人游教授"},{"start":6882.697,"end":6898.354,"text":"老師好黃委員好老師好 老師因為目前還在這個人事審查階段嘛所以本席就先稱呼為有董事長其實我相信台灣的民眾對你都不陌生你過去擔任過民進黨副秘書長還有海基會副董事長那在政壇的"},{"start":6900.052,"end":6920.889,"text":"經歷非常豐富是我們的大前輩後來擔任台灣民意基金會董事長也經常發布民調跟時事的評論很多見解其實常常引起回響像是去年民進黨發動主導大罷免結果大失敗的時候你就非常直率的說大罷免是惡意的在排除在野黨"},{"start":6922.977,"end":6941.162,"text":"但是它不會被選民所接受然後你更直接的批評說民進黨推動大罷免毫無正當性那可以說是民主之詞那本是要對於你雖然出身民進黨但卻有足夠的勇氣來說出民眾的心聲並且給予我們執政者中肯的這個建議這件事情我們想要你格鬥的這個困難"},{"start":6942.322,"end":6967.967,"text":"那尤其身為現在身為中選會主委的這個被提名人擔任這樣的角色就是必須要能夠超越黨派然後克尊中立那帶領我們中選會發揮本來應該要發揮這個超然獨一的這個功能因為在過去我們中選會的中都被人家下面加一個新被批評是中心的中這個很一樣他不是中於人民是中於執政黨所以"},{"start":6969.071,"end":6983.864,"text":"舉例來說在大罷免期間很多立委辦公室都發韓文去中選會希望能夠提供一些相關的資料那中選會都用行政流程的理由然後一拖再拖就有這些不願意給立委提供給立委的這些資料"},{"start":6984.685,"end":7008.041,"text":"甚至都還沒有經過中選會的這個會議的審議通過就霸團跟這些媒體都有辦法先拿到然後接下來就是在網路上公開然後帶風向那發生這樣的情況就是相對是非常明顯有違反這個中選會這個有違反這個行政中立甚至有泄密這個嫌疑那這也是為什麼中選會長期以來形象一直不好的這個原因之一就是因為他雙標讓他認為他雙標沒有"},{"start":7010.822,"end":7034.471,"text":"做到這個客手超然獨立這個立場因此本席也希望說如果未來老師有順利成為中選會的主委一定要無往出眾那秉持客觀中立勇於對執政者提出建議說真話甚至批評的這個勇氣這是我們大家符合大家對你原本的這些期待那接下來本席要針對溫泉中有關於不在籍投票的議題來跟您討論"},{"start":7035.356,"end":7057.242,"text":"就是你在問卷中的回應是說不在即投票涉及憲法保障人民參政權擴大政治參與意義重大你舉雙手贊成這點本席給予肯定因為你的態度非常清楚明確就是說當你也聽到說不在即投票當然還有許多行政跟技術上的問題需要來克服那"},{"start":7058.777,"end":7082.93,"text":"這個但是問題是身為選務機關的選務主管機關應該要站在守護人民投票權當出發點那努力去解決問題克服困體才對所以因此本席也希望說如果老師你就任主委的時候能夠更進一步積極的來推動不在籍投票特別是針對這個偏鄉還有原住民地區來優先實行那為什麼本席會這樣講因為"},{"start":7084.574,"end":7101.843,"text":"我來住台東 台東就是一個偏鄉我們很多人都在外面工作 求學 很多的原因所以在每次要回去投票要花很多的成本這成本不只是交通上的成本 包括時間上的成本跟主委分享一下 像台北到台東坐火車四個小時"},{"start":7102.663,"end":7119.864,"text":"那到台東市 你要到其他的鄉鎮可能還要一到兩個小時的時間他可能投票就要花一天的時間這個是都會區沒有辦法想像你可能早上出去投票三十分鐘 人家知道有什麼事情在外面講話要花一天的時間這是偏鄉很大很大的投票上的困難那像我們2024年的總統大選"},{"start":7121.909,"end":7148.752,"text":"的投票率我們全台東縣是62%相較全國平均是72%我們才有10%因為先本市才太廣所以會影響到人民投票的意願這是本市支持不再投票最主要原因那希望我們在外工作這些台東的子弟或讀書的學子能夠也能夠享有跟其他人一樣投票的權利不會因為距離影響了投票的意願最後我也要再呼籲一下游董事長就是說"},{"start":7149.272,"end":7172.529,"text":"如果未來立法院審核通過你擔任中選委的主委我想也請你務必要保持過去一直保持的這個客觀中立勇於對執政者提出健眼的這個勇氣並持續地推動不再急投票落實憲法賦予人民的平等參政權也守護我們偏鄉民眾投票的權益謝謝博文請問董事長是不是可以來做到"},{"start":7173.469,"end":7196.17,"text":"當然 我覺得我剛剛已經講了不在即投票是世界的潮流 社會也高度關注身為一個政治學者也好 或者是一個知識分子也好我舉雙手贊成 但是我們還是要非常謹慎面對讓它循序漸進 不要追求一步到位否則會帶來很大的災難"},{"start":7197.857,"end":7215.906,"text":"對我們一起來努力啦 這可是真的 剛才剛才講的那些感受的地方我們剛才譬如要放鬆幾年那可能真的大家沒辦法 可是我也發電量所以我充分了解謝謝主委很正面的答覆 那我們一起加油那謝謝謝謝我們的備體兵人 謝謝召委 謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃建斌召委質詢我們請蘇巧"},{"start":7232.392,"end":7238.257,"text":"書面喔 好來 蘇巧惠 蘇巧惠不在 我們這裡有提名有委員抱歉 我想說我們的夢幻學生沒有看好 召委 我們議會同仁 請我們中選會被提名的人我們的主委我們的游老師 游教授"},{"start":7261.781,"end":7280.467,"text":"首先恭喜你啦被提名人但是我發早上很多人的爭議還是未來在網路上的假訊息包含不再去投票這是未來你當主委你要去推動要去承擔因為過去的九二一"},{"start":7282.681,"end":7298.868,"text":"過去的九合一上上界就是一個亂象那亂象的話你當一個主委你整個選舉的步調以及規劃都要很妥善現在整個中選會在這幾年"},{"start":7300.929,"end":7327.8,"text":"其實我們中選會我也是很肯定因為這幾年真的改變很多 國民黨的心目中真的有徹底改變但是未來不再去投票這是還要好好的去規劃還有在網路以境外的那個假訊息的問題假訊息的問題我認為主委你應該是一個學者出身應該對這個問題 你要怎麼去"},{"start":7330.519,"end":7354.725,"text":"第一時間你要怎樣去耗資怎樣去開發怎樣去下架這是未來你要做的是不是主委這一點你來做說明好不好謝謝吳委員的指教假訊息特別是在網路的時代的新奇是所有民主國家必須面對的巨大的挑戰"},{"start":7356.024,"end":7383.024,"text":"怎麼樣在假訊息衝刺之下能夠維持選務的公正性能夠讓所有的候選人還有選民都能夠獲得最好的保障這是中選會或是任何國家的選務單位必須面對的問題所以未來如果針對這個部分來說我相信中選會同仁"},{"start":7385.456,"end":7395.457,"text":"這方面經驗是非常豐富但是我們面對的是一個瞬息萬變的世界尤其是AI的時代所以"},{"start":7397.045,"end":7422.823,"text":"中選會怎麼樣能夠去面對這個問題中選會自己要有所節目但同時中選會是一個行政單位也需要立法院的強力的支持給予他 賦予他能力 賦予他資源讓他能夠應付這一個高度複雜而且充滿不確定性的年代"},{"start":7425.655,"end":7445.539,"text":"我們主委我們提名人真的你說這樣回答因為早過去中選會每次的選舉大多都是有一些網路的誤導以及境外的私立介入但是那時候很多都是反應中選會但是中選會還是沒作為"},{"start":7448.598,"end":7475.435,"text":"等到要有作為已經選舉完了這對候選人是非常的不公平所以這一點我要拜託我們未來的諸位這點一定要記著雖然是說我們要確保每一個好選人他們的反應例如說第一時間的反應我們都要立即的去處理這樣不做好選人他受到這真的是不公平啦"},{"start":7476.878,"end":7504.243,"text":"這一點 我再請教你 你說不在一起投票這一點 我聽剛才建平委員在執行你也是以我舉雙手贊成嘛那未來實施的時效是什麼時候目前中山會建議是這樣就是說從公民投票開始實施"},{"start":7506.408,"end":7531.953,"text":"從單一的全國性公民投票開始實施之後逐步地累積這方面的不在籍投票的相關的經驗降低它的弊端然後一步一步地推進到全國性的選舉包括總統 立委 甚至到地方的選舉這是需要一個過程 一段時間"},{"start":7532.933,"end":7548.591,"text":"不是立刻就去做事實上中選會也沒辦法決定我們立刻就去做中選會還是要遵循立法院制定的法律然後我們才能夠去依法行政但是中選會"},{"start":7550.252,"end":7573.561,"text":"秉持選務機關的立場也有責任和義務提供給立法院最充分的資訊這個可能面對的困難是什麼問題是什麼我們的建議是什麼我想這是中選會應該去做而且能做的好 謝謝我們當然啦我們中選會大家都期待嘛要有作為嘛"},{"start":7574.802,"end":7584.648,"text":"這是大家共同的期待以及目標吧好 謝謝 請委員那我請行政院秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":7591.687,"end":7597.131,"text":"委員長 委員長 現在全國 因為我看我們的媒體在報導我們的沙石的問題廢棄物的問題 現在是非常的嚴重所以說在這個部分 應該是我們在中央要跟地方政府來做協調"},{"start":7613.406,"end":7625.563,"text":"包含說每一管區 他們都可以說設置一個掩埋場或是你說停台北港 就是說每一個地方也不要說讓砂石運到各縣市 這樣說變成一個"},{"start":7628.696,"end":7656.747,"text":"流竄又是一個亂道的問題所以說這個博文因為現在大家都反映說都是中央規定什麼都推給中央這對我們中央非常的不公平所以我認為行政院應該找地方政府大家來設置要怎樣來處理包含我們的填海照路包含我們的港口"},{"start":7657.652,"end":7674.586,"text":"港口旁邊很多要有我們的後櫃一些大型的工業區這都可以來推動委員跟召委可以給我差不多三分鐘來報告跟說明好不好這三小時的事情可以分三方面來跟大家報告"},{"start":7675.669,"end":7701.155,"text":"GPS的部分啦 現在中央的政策是你可以用中央無關系來進步或是環境部的GPS這可以進入 第二有很多地方原本就有用GPS 無關系手機或是車機都可以進入 我們用GPS雙軌制的方式讓能夠載運沙石土方的車子能夠上路去載 這第一部分第二部分剛才委員在追尋的"},{"start":7703.575,"end":7711.761,"text":"戰智場的部分 現在中央加密集在跟地方開會在協調 中央會找從北到南八個戰智場"},{"start":7713.533,"end":7737.822,"text":"包括台北港 台中港 漳濱工業區台南有一部分那高雄這邊也有這個南興計畫的土地我們中央找八個站置場希望地方也能夠進來這個協助管理車可以走 也是有地方可以走這是第二部分第三個部分是就簡正便民的部分以前是這個"},{"start":7741.656,"end":7754.969,"text":"土方出來 要先經過土資廠再到最終處置廠但是土方有些依照法規 也是有加料現在可以從這個出廠直接到最終處理廠又或者是在台中經過分析70%的部分是可以"},{"start":7758.172,"end":7786.225,"text":"賣掉的也能夠就地來做合法的交易我們從這三個面向來做還需要一些時間中央可以跟地方做的合作公共工程也好各種私人的工程也好能夠在合乎法律的規定之下讓土方的全流向的管制穩健的上路還需要一點時間中央地方會合作政府民間也會一起合作依從委員報告"},{"start":7788.146,"end":7811.083,"text":"好 謝謝你說一些可再利用的這種的大家都不要說一味的全部都規定的實施的這樣我就去解決他們的問題不然現在很多你說每次我們都會去都在推動建設包括公共工程甚至也是土方沒有武器處這一點就是他們都來帶我們陳情所以說我今天你 秘書長你有來特別幫你提起"},{"start":7817.262,"end":7838.015,"text":"好 謝謝有什麼歡迎再麻煩委員跟行政院來講我們會繼續拍片 謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳祁銘在這裡要讓我們的秘書長說那刷牌也要刷牌更加到位 更加關心 更加了解因為這個萬事失去 真的很不好來 我們請劉淑萍委員質詢"},{"start":7849.241,"end":7858.113,"text":"好謝謝主席我現在請被提名人主委被提名的游盈隆教授游教授"},{"start":7866.1,"end":7890.239,"text":"郭教授您好您不只是政治學者你本身也曾經當過陸委會的副主委對於兩岸關係的法律體系還有國家忠誠的問題應該都有非常的了解我今天想要請教的一個制度性的矛盾就是陸籍配偶在台灣的戶籍滿了10年之後"},{"start":7891.44,"end":7918.63,"text":"依照兩岸人民關係條例呢他是可以參政的並且呢他也是經過中選會審查了具備了一個候選資格那另外呢但是我們看到是在國籍法依照20條呢他當選後呢在他的就任前或是一年之內呢必須提出放棄中國國籍的證明或是依照其他的法律規定來辦理否則就撤銷資格了那內政部長劉世芳呢他也主張可以參選但就任前"},{"start":7921.611,"end":7925.896,"text":"再用國籍法來去檢驗他的忠誠我認為有三個問題第一個是法律適用的問題兩岸人民關係條例是個特別法在跟國籍法發生衝突時是否應該優先適用呢那內政部 劉部長的說法是否已經有擴張裁量權"},{"start":7941.091,"end":7969.83,"text":"異越法律授權的這個問題那我先把問題說完那請這個被提名人游教授你就等一下再一起回應就我時間有限第二個問題就是參政公平性的問題那一個人可以參選後來當選但是最後是要高度仰賴對岸去要去出具這個文件然後才會被撤銷可是事實上這中共不會發的那是否會侵害到他的是陸配的一個憲法平等保障的這個參政權"},{"start":7971.171,"end":7998.713,"text":"那第三個就是說國家終審如何制度化這是民進黨非常重視的這個問題那終審應該的審核是在選前明確可預期的法律要求之下但是還是說他還會依據選後補件那如果拿不出來就撤銷那因此就想說如果要在最後的這個在這個相關的法律還沒有整合之前你是否認為就終選會應該主動的面對這樣一個法律衝突請劉教授回答 謝謝"},{"start":8000.996,"end":8025.23,"text":"這的確是一個非常棘手的問題對中選會來講一方面來講 站在保障參政權的立場這個中選會會樂見所有的國民的參政權都被完整的保障但是兩岸關係是高度的複雜"},{"start":8027.581,"end":8054.99,"text":"相關的法例到目前為止也沒有就這一點有非常完備清楚的立法所以在這種情況底下就留下了一個模糊的空間這個空間內政部有內政部的主張中選會在這上面幾乎沒有去主張什麼的這樣的一個立場"},{"start":8057.076,"end":8064.139,"text":"但主觀上您作為一個學者作為一個學者我覺得兩岸是一個高度複雜的問題我覺得這個目前這樣的一個問題"},{"start":8070.379,"end":8086.789,"text":"你就是侵犯他的公平參政權嗎這是好幾個價值牽扯在這裡面所以即便是在過去多年以來有國民黨執政時代有民進黨執政時代但通通沒有去根本解決這個問題所以這問題遺留下來這問題坦白講對中選會來講要交給中選會去處理這個是中選會沒這個能力"},{"start":8099.051,"end":8115.258,"text":"所以你們未來就是草獨立機關就不處理了是嗎不知道 我的意思是說那這個部分你應該是行政院這個可能秘書長要去回應那我現在問的一個問題更重要的是那特別法跟普通法的這個問題適用你應該怎麼看法呢"},{"start":8117.867,"end":8140.831,"text":"根據法律學當然我們在座有很多法律專家特別法是優於普通法所以兩岸人民關係條例但是這兩者因為兩岸關係高度的複雜牽扯著非常複雜的歷史的因果這裡面可能會衍生很多很多的問題就選務機關來講選務機關並沒有這種職權去做這個讓"},{"start":8147.829,"end":8168.575,"text":"所有的人滿意的這樣的處理我知道被提名人劉教授你就是現在在一個審查期間這個問題應該是民進黨非常care的問題的那的確也是有它的複雜性但是這個比較全國的人民包括學者專家必須好好去針對這個問題去好好去針對大家的部分要知道它的公平性"},{"start":8170.595,"end":8198.971,"text":"還有再一個問題在於說我們看到的是國內移轉投票的問題國內移轉投票涉及到的是又是一個價值非常重要的涉及到公平的平等權跟自由跟秘密投票然後也涉及到國家的信任那我剛才也聽到是主委是不是您對於一般我們民眾黨是提出來是國內移轉投票請其他的政黨就是尤其是民進黨不要去特別的去汙名化國內的移轉投票那請我想要說那個被提名的你針對"},{"start":8200.454,"end":8204.486,"text":"這國內移轉投票的話 您的態度是支持還是怎麼樣我支持啊"},{"start":8205.37,"end":8229.74,"text":"我完全同意 但是我覺得不是一步到位沒錯 沒錯 我後面繼續問下去那這個部分我知道你也在你的這個對民眾黨的回應報告當中有提到說他必須按部就班因為涉及到國家信任的問題還有安全的這個秘密投票問題那你的意思是說從先從公投開始嘛對不對包括是從到選舉的到原住民的地方到中央是嗎"},{"start":8230.68,"end":8247.722,"text":"好那重點是相關的問題包括說我們就他的一個配套措施就是說他對於秘密投票有被破壞的問題還有對選票保管跟運送的問題那就這兩點你是不是夠可能如果你當中選會的主委你有沒有什麼後續的一個配套措施規劃或是想法初步的現在"},{"start":8248.683,"end":8270.539,"text":"我還沒有上任中選會主委啦不過我已經很努力的在了解相關的狀況我覺得技術上來講應該是可以處理啦否則這個像原住民的這個部分已經有了初步的大院也已經通過了相關的法律來解決這個問題我覺得"},{"start":8275.009,"end":8284.245,"text":"這個基本上是不會有大問題所以是基本上技術性沒有大問題是不是願意要不要做行政機關這部分要不要做的問題我想要講清楚的就是說"},{"start":8285.734,"end":8304.204,"text":"如果不在籍投票立刻就要實施在2026的這一次九合一地方選舉那是幾乎所有的人包括22個這個地方的選舉委員會就是各縣市六都都岐岐以為不可"},{"start":8304.944,"end":8330.412,"text":"所以應該要分階段然後實施之後能夠獲得社會的信心社會的信賴我們再來推展到選舉上面去所以大家可以預期如果您順利當選到中選會主委的話應該會提出中選會的版本半部就版了就實施可行性去進行嗎是我希望這樣子好 謝謝那另外最後一個問題這個主席先"},{"start":8333.014,"end":8351.49,"text":"包容一下好這地方就說您在您的民眾黨的回應的報告當中我提到說呢對於中選會對公投案的審查僅限法律明定要件不涉及到價值判斷不涉及到價值判斷那就是這部分嘛那請問是說如果是針對114年"},{"start":8354.113,"end":8381.015,"text":"在有送到中選會的就立法院的一個有公投案這樣子的案提到的中選會去做審查的時候這一個時候是針對說題目是您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決的政策呢這個立法院公投案假設您當時是一個中選會的主委您對於這樣子的一個案子是否能夠成案您的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":8382.376,"end":8395.759,"text":"我觉得那一个案子对中选会来说我事后了解中选会承受了空前巨大的压力要做出一个正确的决定是非常困难的"},{"start":8396.584,"end":8426.071,"text":"但是我們也要注意到中選會不是立法院提出了前部否決中選會也同意也處理了河山研議公投是的所以有一個通過一個不通過我相信上一屆的中選會委員會有他們的相當完整的思維但是主委被提名人我是問您的看法我是問您的看法"},{"start":8426.491,"end":8452.916,"text":"我的看法對 這個議題我覺得這是一個非常困難的問題您這樣狀況是 您的初步判斷因為這涉及到的是在程序上面這部分你是指的 劉委員我再把題目說一遍 您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一次決之政策那這個部分是讓民眾去決定"},{"start":8454.907,"end":8479.603,"text":"所以他如果過程當中的程序上面並沒有違反的話應該是讓民眾去決定公投的意思就是在這樣子沒錯 我充分了解你的意思而這正好也就是觸及了或凸顯了目前台灣司法審查權跟直接民選 直接民主之間的衝突"},{"start":8481.806,"end":8509.254,"text":"所以這個問題到目前為止還社會還不是完全了解但是我覺得社會可以廣泛的去討論是不是公民投票的結果不能抵觸憲判這是一個很嚴肅的憲政的問題我覺得社會可以去討論但是上一屆的這樣的一個裁決我現在也算半個當事人我不便表達意見"},{"start":8510.151,"end":8536.947,"text":"好 這樣好 謝謝至少我覺得這個被提名的劉教授您提出出來之後您知道在現在在審查期間包括也是你過去的在民進黨的黨員後來你退黨但是你就知道說你自己有一個這個學者的價值這個風範我是覺得已經建立起來就是有一個高度肯定但我希望說您如果被立法院同意的話你就繼續的在這個位置上面就是在跳脫到政治堅守到行政中立"},{"start":8537.347,"end":8565.251,"text":"然後也重建中選 各界對於中選會的這樣一個信任因為大家都覺得中選會那個中是中於執政黨的那個中然後也落實到法定選務然後保障人民的實質參與這對你的期許這一點請委員放心好 謝謝游盈隆就是游盈隆 不會改變好 我們期待大家一起有目共睹期待OK 謝謝謝謝 感謝劉淑檳委員質詢我們王宏威委員"},{"start":8572.011,"end":8577.399,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們被提名人游教授加油教授"},{"start":8583.083,"end":8604.505,"text":"好 游教授辛苦了我們委員好可以看到今天包含就是我們整個審查會裡面包含我們國民黨的委員對游教授也有相當多的肯定那我想請問一下因為游教授過去除了是政治學教授還有民調"},{"start":8605.426,"end":8633.022,"text":"那當然對於政治也有很多評論而且你過去長期當這個政府的烏鴉執政黨的烏鴉那譬如說在去年的大罷免的時候你有很多的評論你的評論是大罷免是台灣民主之恥而且你曾經痛批有兩大戰犯死不認錯就是包含民進黨黨團的柯建民總召還有沈伯陽委員"},{"start":8634.443,"end":8657.7,"text":"那你有提到就是大罷免是災難性的民主內戰那當然其實你的評論也不止於此所以你這一次在被提名的時候外界其實有很多人是驚訝的那甚至有一種說法是說你可能可以得到在野黨委員的票數但是民進黨內部很多人對你有意見"},{"start":8658.661,"end":8681.129,"text":"所以您認為在這一次的整個的提名的表決過程裡面你目前評估你可以得到民進黨全數的票數同意你嗎這部分我不敢去評估不敢評估 所以有可能會有人跑票"},{"start":8682.009,"end":8699.439,"text":"我不知道好 那另外請教一下因為我剛剛特別提到了一些大罷免在這個過程裡面很多人就開始談到一些我們法律跟一些制度上的問題在之前我們通過了就是在聯署要付身分證 銀本"},{"start":8700.885,"end":8716.759,"text":"民進黨政府有來提出復議但是呢並沒有拿去釋憲所以這個應該已經是可以確定的這個行政院也沒有拿去釋憲然後我想請問一下我們還有一個版本就是呢"},{"start":8717.299,"end":8738.212,"text":"加一版本就是你的被罷免票數要多過就是被罷免要多過你之前之前的當選的票數才能夠確定被罷免那我不曉得游教授你對於這一個的修法版本你個人的意見是什麼 你同意嗎謝謝委員 我的看法是這樣第一個"},{"start":8748.14,"end":8762.371,"text":"家父身份證這個是加嚴罷免權的刑事坦白講在某個程度上我是贊成的因為全世界各國國會議員是沒有什麼國會議員罷免制度的"},{"start":8767.813,"end":8786.053,"text":"沒錯啊所以就這個部分來講我純粹基於學者的立場我是覺得加嚴我是可以同意的那第二個就立委提罷免同意票需高於當選票我覺得這兩個不能夠相"},{"start":8787.722,"end":8797.087,"text":"不能夠不能相提並論對 不能相提並論所以你對於加1的版本你個人有疑慮"},{"start":8798.26,"end":8824.273,"text":"我覺得那個不合理好 你覺得不合理好 因為我們今天是審查必須把一些就是我們現在修法的過程要就教於你另外我看到你回答就是我們立法院各黨團的就是有關於罷免的部分我們在罷免的過程裡面有很多的不合理其中有關於是政治獻金因為我們自己是身為被罷免人"},{"start":8824.833,"end":8850.707,"text":"那因為我們是被監督的對象但是相對在政治獻金上就出現了一個極不平衡的狀態如果在選舉裡面不管是多少人參選每一個人都是受到政治獻金法的一個規範但是我們在這一次被罷免裡面其實整個的政治獻金是非常非常混亂的"},{"start":8852.729,"end":8873.566,"text":"我看到你的回答是說你也認為即便是罷免者包括領銜人也好或罷免團體他的政治獻金也應該受到一定的管理和規範所以我想請問你這個部分你要不要再講一下就是有關於政治獻金的規範你個人的看法是怎麼樣政治制度是嚴禁的"},{"start":8878.448,"end":8893.165,"text":"不是從一開始就完美無缺所以經過不斷的實踐實驗之後該修的是應該要修我個人的意見是被罷免"},{"start":8894.775,"end":8918.224,"text":"的人要受到政治獻金法的限制但是提罷免的人目前沒有任何的這方面的沒有任何規範所以我覺得未來是可以考慮修法雖然政治獻金法的主管機關並不是中選會但是這涉及了選務選舉跟罷免的公平性"},{"start":8918.924,"end":8942.193,"text":"的確 因為這樣所以我才表示意見好 所以你也認為這個應該修好 另外一個在這次罷免裡面有一個完全回憶於過去的做法這次中選會也被我們認為是極為不中立而且有政治辦案之嫌就是有關於在聯署告發聯署 錯假聯署的時間"},{"start":8946.114,"end":8957.197,"text":"過去事實上去年大罷免並不是第一次也不會是最後一次但是中選會過去歷次針對有關於罷免的錯假連署每一個包含韓國瑜 王浩宇 陳柏惟 黃婕 所有的"},{"start":8966.599,"end":8992.605,"text":"都是在投票之後然後去做告發每一個都是在投票之後去做告發唯有一次例外唯有一次例外就是在去年的大罷免大家可以看到去年大罷免整個去告發錯假連署然後去偵辦錯假連署大概都是史上這個最為激烈的一次那這中間就是跟中選會的告發時間有關"},{"start":8995.686,"end":9011.218,"text":"那到底這個告發時間應該是在聯署期間呢或者是在投票之後不要去影響最後的罷免結果其實應該要有一套制度的但是中選會當時就是完全違反過去的做法當然就被我們認為說這個是有政治辦案的嫌疑所以這個就是中選會的業務了"},{"start":9022.526,"end":9046.744,"text":"所以我想請問 我們主委被提名人如果你擔任主委 針對未來夾是有這個連署 錯假連署其實這個連署還不只是罷免 還有選舉也會有這個你是不是應該建立一套 一個可長可久的制度而不是隨著不同的情境而改變"},{"start":9049.793,"end":9066.523,"text":"對我來講這個時候要回答這個問題的確是困難的怎麼會困難我還是要回答這個問題這個一點都不困難吧我還是回答這個問題我自己也參選過所以我也知道其實選舉期間為了避免影響選舉"},{"start":9068.467,"end":9097.258,"text":"即便有嫌疑人涉嫌犯罪检调司法单位也都是事后侦办事前也有一些但是基本上不会这么做所以我不了解大坝棉去年实际的状况他们是怎么样做成决定我不了解那是一页沧桑史我觉得事后可以再去检讨改进"},{"start":9098.116,"end":9109.05,"text":"我特別指出這個這個其實完全是技術性的竊選完全是技術竊選有非常多種因為我時間到了不耽誤下面時間謝謝謝謝我們感謝王宏威委員資訊我們現在習新穎委員"},{"start":9124.636,"end":9129.988,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請這個主委被提名人請阿佑教授"},{"start":9137.951,"end":9155.406,"text":"这个我们游教授好那本席想请教您这个您应该知道现在AI时代的来临那AI的身为技术也已经成为全球民主的威胁了"},{"start":9156.207,"end":9183.176,"text":"那您被提名为这个中选会的主委所以今天本席的质询要为我们的民主宪政找到疫苗那我们台湾民主的选举绝对不能被破坏也不能被不信任台湾的民主如果被破坏那就不战而亡这点您认同吧完全赞同对 所以近年来AI深维技术您"},{"start":9184.617,"end":9203.694,"text":"這個是不是有所觀察或者是您的了解是如何現在全球民主都受到AI身為技術的威脅很多國家都發生過類似的案例您有沒有一些體會或觀察的心得當然有我覺得"},{"start":9204.875,"end":9218.896,"text":"AIA所帶來的新的時代假訊息的衝刺氾濫這是所有的民主國家必須要去面對的而且是一個挑戰也可能是一個噩夢但是應該要嚴正以待"},{"start":9221.007,"end":9237.232,"text":"对 那现在我们的选罢法的机制大部分是事后追究责任那没有办法挡住选前特别选前24小时 48小时的这种假讯息的洪水"},{"start":9238.012,"end":9267.01,"text":"针对这一块本系想请教您是否支持您如果就任中选会主委之后能够主动推动这个选罢法的修订应该要纳入一些预防性的条款例如强制要求一些平台他一定要标记标记我这个平台展现出来的影片或是照片图像他是AI生成的内容而且"},{"start":9267.91,"end":9295.658,"text":"也要賦予中選會針對經過鑑識是身為的影音或是圖像呢有權下令做緊急處置針對這一塊您的看法是我的看法是這樣中選會只是一個不到60個人的一個單位長期以來這個努力於顯霧的行政那對於這一個"},{"start":9298.639,"end":9315.652,"text":"當前這麼巨大的一個時代的巨變所衍生的這些問題恐怕不是中選會單獨可以承擔的當然…所以我本席第一個主要的是說你如果擔任主委你是不是你可以推動一些修法"},{"start":9316.472,"end":9339.066,"text":"有法依據法令那相關單位就可以來進行那你中選會是很重要辦選務必須要公平公正甚至你要讓整個的選舉過程合乎民主程序所以您是否會主動推動選罷法的修訂納入針對現在AI身為的一些預防性條款"},{"start":9339.85,"end":9354.423,"text":"我覺得這是義不容辭會嘛 對應該這麼做但是必須要建立在這個非常好的扎實的研究的基礎上面然後才能夠提出來"},{"start":9356.885,"end":9382.496,"text":"當然 但是現在很多實務上非常的需要剛剛您也已經有稍微提到就是說整個的修法如果只靠中選會可能會遇到相關部會互踢皮球我想您大概也有預期所以本席也想請教您上任之後如何確保您跟NCC速發部的一些實質的合作"},{"start":9384.439,"end":9411.067,"text":"我們主觀上當然是願意的就是很多事情事實上就是跨部會必須要去共同面對的那是否願意發起跨部會的這種專案小組那來制定一套可操作的這個預防機制而不能讓我們整個民主選舉民主制度的這個防護網呢最後被破壞在中選會的職權範圍內"},{"start":9413.283,"end":9428.344,"text":"該怎麼做就怎麼做而且要全力去做好 這個大原則方向很好那現在就是說您如果就任後整個的修法如果來不及可是"},{"start":9430.015,"end":9457.33,"text":"馬上選舉就到了這個AI的假訊息爆發怎麼辦那中選會會不會有一些行政備案譬如說透過行政命令要求平台在選舉期間加強審核以及跟事實查核中心進行24小時的熱線等等這些問題我猜您大概還沒想過據我知道這個中選會這方面已經有一套做法"},{"start":9458.371,"end":9466.908,"text":"就是说上次我们才质询我们的召委王召委也很认同的我不知道中选会送来了没"},{"start":9468.726,"end":9487.695,"text":"我不曉得中選會送來沒有我現在是被提名人對 沒關係那您就表達您的立場我覺得就這個部分來講所謂身為的這些照片這些影響它是直接影響到選民跟候選人所以"},{"start":9488.976,"end":9505.921,"text":"中選會能夠做的大概是怎麼樣在第一時間降低它的傷害而不是根本上解決這個假訊息的問題中選會要主動積極建立這個綠色通道讓這整個能夠不受影響因為那樣的一個問題的存在是"},{"start":9506.821,"end":9535.966,"text":"跨政黨的噩夢不是只有哪一個特定政黨對 我們不是為特定政黨這個選舉的公平公正很重要那主委 所以這個AI的偽造像洪水猛獸我們希望預防勝於治療那中選會一定要主動修法不然我們的民主會淪為科技戰場的犧牲品這一塊我們希望如果您能夠順利擔任主委的話這個部分一定要落實而且堅持住好不好"},{"start":9536.246,"end":9547.357,"text":"我們嚴正以待 嚴肅以待謝謝謝謝我們感謝習慶雲委員執行我們家葉研資委員麻煩請那個游教授游教授"},{"start":9566.704,"end":9590.549,"text":"右岩好右教授好 這樣跟右教授請教一下在我們選罷法裡面有規定如果要罷免的話要一年之後才能夠進行那你覺得當初選罷法會這樣子規定的原因是什麼為什麼不是立刻選完之後就可以搞罷免一定要一年後我猜想立法者大概也意識到不要讓當選完之後立刻面臨"},{"start":9592.193,"end":9611.123,"text":"當選人被罷免的情境不要說這個讓人家輸不起就搞罷免應該是這樣吧總是要讓人家做個一年看看做得好不好再決定要不要罷免但是在這個李靖勇前主委在這邊我也問過他一樣的問題他說沒有不可以"},{"start":9611.992,"end":9633.778,"text":"現在的法律是沒有不可以換句話說如果我選上了輸給我的人輸不起他可能覺得說在選舉過程當中有什麼失誤或他覺得他想要再拚翻盤的機會他在敗選的隔天他跟他的團隊就可以來搞罷免這個是我們現在法律規定就是這樣嗎您的看法"},{"start":9635.23,"end":9659.813,"text":"我看怎麼詮釋啦我覺得選舉結束之後如果有國民不滿選舉結果不滿當選人所以他會對他講出很多負面的話說要罷免等等等等那是屬於言論自由的範圍言論自由當然都尊重但是如果是由敗選的那一方或其政黨"},{"start":9660.794,"end":9681.628,"text":"在背後煽動發起的你覺得這有符合民主的常態嗎因為以目前的法律的規定事實上也是一年之後才能夠禁止罷免像中選會才能夠可是問題是輸的人他可以在輸的隔天就開始規劃 煽動然後搞大罷免"},{"start":9682.228,"end":9709.986,"text":"我們去年看到的狀況就是這樣雖然民進黨嘴巴不講是他們發動的但柯建民總召就很誠實嘛他在接受媒體訪問的時候就說在投票的隔天還是隔兩天就去找過賴總統啊這在他媒體訪問公開講的啊怎麼透過罷免去扭轉國會的席次嘛在我們那一區包括我們國民黨很多立委的選區都一樣啊發動罷免推動罷免最用力的就是輸的那一方嘛我那一區就是這樣啊"},{"start":9710.831,"end":9729.608,"text":"他的我在那個罷免說明會我有公開資料啊他輸給我的那個立委的服務處主任沒多久就成立了一個就加入一個這個罷免的社團在推動然後不然就是想要取而代之的民進黨的人主要在推動嘛那這是民主常態嗎你覺得是嗎"},{"start":9730.928,"end":9744.354,"text":"當然不是 這是政治問題啦對啊 那問題是法律規範不嚴謹或中選會的按住就會造成這樣反民主的狀況出現嘛所以如果說您當主委當然中選會是辦選務的機關但您也是洞見觀瞻啊"},{"start":9749.556,"end":9777.248,"text":"如果是您的話您覺得要怎麼去結合您的未來的職務讓這種反民主的狀況繼續發生我們只能夠依法行政就中選會的角度來講但是以我作為一個政治學者的角度來講我長期以來反對在國會議員的層次立委來存在一個罷免制度因為全世界先進民主國家沒有哪一個國家的國會議員"},{"start":9779.502,"end":9805.255,"text":"美國的聯邦參議員 眾議員當選之後面臨被罷免沒有的 制度上就不存在這種可能性但是台灣也許這個就是說在孫中山先生的思想底下然後去制定的選舉罷免創制復建那個那個是這樣子因為我們國家不可能沒有罷免因為走到這一步不可能沒有罷免但是"},{"start":9805.935,"end":9830.98,"text":"應該是怎麼去完善罷免的制度比如說現在因為罷免的門檻比較低它只要兩成五所以就會讓選輸的人覺得有機可乘怎麼透過大罷免去扭轉剛剛產生的民意這就是我覺得制度造成的漏洞但是大罷免結果其實對社會非常傷害像我們那一區就出現非常多的對立包括家庭"},{"start":9832.558,"end":9858.648,"text":"長輩跟子女之間也因為立場不一樣罷免的仇恨的煽動彼此不和甚至有女兒離開家庭都有我覺得這個是當初發動大罷免的人他可能沒有顧慮到那麼多但這絕對不會只是政治的問題這是整個社會的問題它會影響到整個社會因為我覺得這個事情是非常嚴重沒有正當性的罷免那時候罷免我的被推出來的領先人用了一個理由"},{"start":9859.699,"end":9868.583,"text":"2023年葉元之怎麼樣怎麼樣所以要罷免葉元之我2024才做立委就是說因為剛選完就要搞罷免他也找不出什麼理由他就是這樣隨便亂講這個就是罷免制度的漏洞"},{"start":9872.186,"end":9889.531,"text":"我們對未來的主委或是現在的游教授充滿了期待覺得到時候如果在一些法令的解釋 詮釋甚至改革上面希望說您可以更積極的去讓我們的台灣更民主 更健全我一定會這麼做好 謝謝"},{"start":9899.305,"end":9920.845,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝葉延之委員質詢在這被提名人游一龍先生之說明跟答詢已經結束了被提名人游一龍先生可以先離席"},{"start":9922.298,"end":9931.549,"text":"我們休息十分鐘繼續我們再來請胡博遠先生來審查謝謝大家大家辛苦了"},{"start":10558.82,"end":10567.602,"text":"我們現在繼續進行比提名人胡柏諺先生跟說明跟詢問請中選委員比提名人並為副主任委員胡柏諺先生說明謝謝"},{"start":10591.648,"end":10612.745,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位委員我是胡博焱很榮幸有這個機會受行政院的信任而被提名擔任這樣的職務的工作那我也希望這個是一個這幾年來我們都看到台灣其實不只是在立法院在每個地方政治的抗爭性都非常大我想"},{"start":10613.726,"end":10632.553,"text":"政治不是只有抗爭也有很多討論跟協調這件事情而我們其實這個委員會呢目前的七位提名人基本上來講來自各個不同的黨派其實以目前的地方選委會的態勢是一樣的那說實在的相比"},{"start":10633.086,"end":10659.767,"text":"我們內政委員會可能處理的像內政部的事情或是其他部會中選會是一個行政動能很小那嚴格來講處理的事情也比較單純但是雖然它是單純的但是這件事情其實處理不好就會動搖國本的這事情那但是呢中選會其實剛剛主委提名有提過說我們其實原而編制也不過才60個人就像地方選舉委員會也不過才200多個人"},{"start":10661.266,"end":10686.326,"text":"所以呢我們雖然有七個提名人但是大概只有主委跟副主委需要兩個值日生來負責擦黑板倒水的這樣的工作這個就由游老師跟我來擔任但是重要的是這七個人其實在未來在決定事情上面以及現在的四位委員在未來決定事情上面來講在這個委員會當中而言每個人的決定的份量是一樣的而且這也是體現這一個國家在處理選舉事務當中而言"},{"start":10690.209,"end":10701.315,"text":"各黨各派在處理事務當中都有應該要發言的地位而我們希望藉由這一次的審查可以讓我們國家可以走得更順利謝謝謝謝我們這裡電視台有他的詢問詢問質詢"},{"start":10721.006,"end":10743.355,"text":"謝謝主席我們請被提名人胡伯彥教授胡伯彥教授被提名人好我想剛剛你有說明就是這一次的話基本上是由各黨派來推薦也是我們進入到立法院將近兩年來第一次的人事審查"},{"start":10743.823,"end":10772.266,"text":"是由各黨派來推薦我們當然也希望說能夠有這樣一個好的結果那當然今天有幾個題目要就教於您那首先是在我們提問的一個問題當中針對中選會是否有權審查立法院的公投提案那您的書面回答得非常清楚就是依公投法第15條第二項立法院交付案件排除人民提案審核的程序"},{"start":10772.748,"end":10797.939,"text":"就法律解釋上應該沒有審查的適用你甚至說立法院交付本為政治決定在邏輯上不該由中選會進行合法的審查所以我在這邊請您先把你的立場講清楚你的意思是不是只要立法院三讀通過交付到中選會這樣的公投案其實中選會的角色就是依法辦理呢"},{"start":10798.618,"end":10814.724,"text":"我認為一件事情就是就這個法律條文解釋邏輯上面來講因為他排除了第九條到第十三條的適用所以在這個時候如果中選會審查必須要回到一件事情上面來講就像以前所講的就是請你間斷回答是不是一個政策是不是因為在您的報告裡面在這個選擇上面來講就會是如何而且不是只有這個條文因為我們還有防衛性公投"},{"start":10824.287,"end":10844.933,"text":"的問題就是如果這是您的回答嗎所以是不是就是應該遇到這個有立法院三路通過交付中選會的這樣的一個公投案中選會的角色就是依法辦理對是好那所以不能再用什麼非重大決策或是合法性把它擋下來是嗎"},{"start":10845.643,"end":10864.302,"text":"我認為這個問題的憲政問題應該是要由大法官來去解決那接下來也是我要請教您的就是您認為如果真的有憲政問題的話那您覺得中選會雖然是獨立行政的一個機關但認為行政權的一部分並非憲政機關所以憲政上的爭議"},{"start":10865.458,"end":10889.782,"text":"依照憲法應該交由大法官來處理這是您的回覆所以針對這個部分中選會它不是憲政的機關所以中選會如果過度介入只會讓選務複雜這也是您在回覆中提到的所以我要問得更直接一點就是中選會直接駁回公投案是不是嚴重的越權呢也僭越了大法官的職權"},{"start":10891.038,"end":10913.725,"text":"我其實在之前的研究報告有提出來一件事情是說中選會如果直接把人家駁回的話應該在法條裡面規範讓他立即可以去申請大官釋憲由大法官去解決所以中選會不可以駁回嗎我認為如果從我剛剛的研究報告立場上面來講從這個立場其實是可以讓他駁回但是後面接續的就是馬上"},{"start":10915.005,"end":10925.948,"text":"那個憲法解釋的問題可是中選會沒有權利嘛沒有權利駁回我們的公投案嘛如果照你剛剛的論點的話我們應該就是要辦理嘛那如果認為有問題的話再送交這個把憲政機關請申請釋憲的問題嘛對 所以這個部分的話就是好那其他機關是不是有辦法權利解釋違憲的問題"},{"start":10939.352,"end":10964.214,"text":"其他機關對行政機關可不可以解釋違憲的問題實際上來講每個行政機關基本上來講都是在依據憲法來做成決定對所以說好但是呢最終而言決定有沒有違憲的問題的時候就要變成是大法官對那所以說針對這個軍人加薪跟提高警校人員所得替代率的法律是否違憲其實應該不是行政院長說了算吧"},{"start":10965.034,"end":10983.286,"text":"應該是要申請這個大法官釋憲由大法官來決定那在還沒有宣判違憲之前是不是就是合乎憲法在您這個法律學者的這樣子一個我覺得這個憲政爭議而言應該要交由大法官來處理但是因為行政院認為他是違憲的違憲之前就是合乎憲法嗎"},{"start":10984.066,"end":11000.448,"text":"行政院認為它是違憲就像定出來的某些制度內立法院也有可能認為它是違憲的在你是法律學者的這樣子的一個立場你是不是針對這個部分就是只要還沒辦違憲之前就是合乎憲法只要還沒辦還沒有判違憲之前是不是就合乎憲法"},{"start":11001.277,"end":11007.305,"text":"跟委員報告就是每個行政機關他可能會認為他這個法條是違憲的所以最終他可能會去申請實現的去做主意的因為你在國會改革的審議階段你多次的公開批評在野黨的修法是違憲擴權可是當這個中選會駁回我們的公投的時候"},{"start":11019.58,"end":11043.856,"text":"你卻沉默了你卻沒有站出來講說這個部分依法的話是應該不該駁回應該要依法宣證所以我覺得站在這個立場的話我覺得被提名人你好像就是只有在監督在野黨不監督執政黨敢宣出來的就是表現了一個這個好像是側翼的行為而且你的書面也回答了就是中選會是違法但是你的沉默卻證明了你也不敢得罪民進黨所以當有這樣的一個狀況的時候"},{"start":11045.936,"end":11052.514,"text":"我們要 你要如何說服我們這些被審 這個審查委員你未來能夠超然獨立的行使你的職權"},{"start":11053.615,"end":11080.988,"text":"我在2015年的時候我就說我要跟蔡英文劃清界限了這件事情其實報紙都有報導過這次的審查我想你要說服的是這一次被審查的委員他們的想法那另外一點呢就是我們在第一題就有提到的就是有關公投綁大選如何順利的進行那您的回答是說只要把場地租大一點分流做好工作人員增加然後提高行政效率"},{"start":11081.928,"end":11107.307,"text":"亂象 107年的亂象就不會重演這是您這是您回覆的是嗎那你這樣是不是就在說明了就民進黨這幾年說公投這個107年的公投綁大選選務亂是因為這個因為公投綁大選的關係所以你現在就是在證明說當時民進黨這幾年的說法純粹就是為了政治算計而做這樣子的說謊的一個行為嗎"},{"start":11108.928,"end":11132.542,"text":"107年確實當初2018年確實公投榜大選的那一天大選日的混亂狀況這個大家都看得出來是因為選務沒有規劃好嗎所以你才會提出來說接下來你就可以把選務怎麼規劃好所以你剛回答是這樣嗎但是那一天確實就是有十個十個公投案那就是因為表示你的人力還不夠嗎你分流沒有做好嗎這是你在回答中"},{"start":11132.922,"end":11145.873,"text":"可以解決的問題的方式所以說我們這邊是不是也就代表說以前上一次的2018年的公投中選會沒有辦好是因為人的問題是因為人無能而不是因為並大選"},{"start":11148.075,"end":11171.043,"text":"所以你在回答問題我覺得在2018年確實選務工作做得不完善所以說是因為這樣所以這幾年民進黨一直在講說公投綁大選造成選務的混亂其實不是因為公投綁大選事實上是真正能夠展現民意真正讓每個民眾能夠有機會去表達他自己的意志的時間所以我想您在這個整個回覆中也已經"},{"start":11172.271,"end":11200.933,"text":"已經這樣子充分的回答了說您針對公投綁大選覺得這個選務的部分其實的亂象不是因為綁大選而是因為行政座有沒有做好嗎是這樣嗎因為其他國家有些國家確實是沒有綁大選那我認為說如果真的要綁大選我們就必須要把選務工作處理做正因為在你問題的一些言論跟立場事實上你是反對公投綁大選的那當然今天我在研究報告是寫我支持"},{"start":11201.873,"end":11218.841,"text":"對 你在你的 但是你看喔你在這個自由時報的這個對 專欄裡面我寫你是這個空頭綁大選只會毀了公投本質喔這是你以前的說法 對那我們希望說不要因為今天是未來來擔任副主委所以你就改變你過去的說法到底我們要相信哪一個你"},{"start":11219.241,"end":11237.435,"text":"是同意公投綁大選的你還是反對公投綁大選委員因為我們現在法條已經改了我們未來就是要因應一件事情就是要綁大選我們要預防的一件事情就是2018年的那個狀況出現希望您不要是因為為了要擔任這個副主委這個職務而去出賣您原來的一個這個"},{"start":11238.796,"end":11250.606,"text":"自己的一個學術的一個良知還是希望您能夠如果未來您有幸能夠擔任副主委的話一定要秉持公正 超然獨立的立場來行使職權謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝徐益臻委員質詢我們現在有時間要委員質詢"},{"start":11272.05,"end":11299.547,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們被提名人副主委被提名人胡老師胡教授教授首先我想要先分享喔有一個就是被歐巴馬總統任命的第一位女性的這個司法部長哈佛的第一位的女性院長叫做Elena Kagan2010年歐巴馬提名她那這位美國的女性大法官他有一句名言"},{"start":11300.339,"end":11321.068,"text":"我觉得想要分享给大家也许胡教授您也非常的了解这句名言呢他说my politics would be must be have to becompletely separatefrom my judgment意思是我有我个人的政治意识的形态我有我个人的政治"},{"start":11321.795,"end":11342.64,"text":"形象或是我的政治主張但是這跟我的判決是完全兩碼子事他是完全會抽離的當他成為大法官的那一天他勢必要專業的去判準他的每一個判決而且依據憲法所以他的politics每個人有自己的politics"},{"start":11343.18,"end":11361.605,"text":"我有您有每一個委員都有但是當大家被提名成為中選會的委員未來渴望上任的時候請切記超越黨派超越個人的政治意識形態首先合法是必要的我相信胡教授非常同意這位Elena Kagan她的主張"},{"start":11362.375,"end":11391.324,"text":"其实也是物资要我个人的主张所以说下一页我刚刚在垂询这个主委被提名人游云龙先生的时候我也提到成功选务的三要素就是公正效率跟便民而中选会委员的四要件独立专业公正跟守线守法守线守法非常的重要唯有回到守线守法的基准我们才能够超越自己的politics"},{"start":11391.804,"end":11415.299,"text":"自己的政治意識的型態您同意嗎同意那麼在首先守法的這個範圍裡頭我對於剛剛因為時間有限游盈隆被提名人主委的被提名人他一直長期在論述的他個人認為這個罷免是災難的這件事情我尊重他的言論自由但是如果今天"},{"start":11416.658,"end":11443.921,"text":"成為中選會未來要獨立行使職權而且是首先守法的主委的時候回歸憲法的精神就非常重要憲法第17條所規範的人民有選舉罷免創制復決之權這是中華民國的憲法所以人民依據憲法所提出的罷免我希望過去的游盈隆學者跟未來的游盈隆主委"},{"start":11444.406,"end":11452.882,"text":"他的主張勢必要首先合法要脫離他個人的politics那您怎麼看這個命題呢您怎麼看待人民發起的大罷免"},{"start":11453.547,"end":11481.209,"text":"包委員我這個意見其實跟委員一樣但是我不要我其實某些方面也是認為說罷免制度其實在很多國家現在目前其實是被檢討的但是我們確實在憲法17條就寫著我們有罷免的權利這個是我們沒有辦法去否定的一件事情因為它寫在憲法裡面人民委員會跑來跟你講說我就可以罷免誰所以說首先守法很重要"},{"start":11482.757,"end":11511.603,"text":"個人作為學者的身份可以有自己的政治主張但一旦被提名成為國家的中選會的委員的時候首先手法就是重要的基準請尊重人民依據憲法所發動的基本公民權而我更要說大罷免是人民發動的而大惡罷才是國民黨發動的吳斯堯我本人就是受害者就是當事人我到現在還是中華民國史上被罷免者"},{"start":11512.093,"end":11531.774,"text":"的最高被偽造連署的份數2674份這份記錄負面的記錄還標記在我身上我非常的遺憾這是被發動大惡霸一方用違法的方式來僭越了來踐踏了憲法珍貴的人民父權我要在這裡提出"},{"start":11532.702,"end":11544.919,"text":"下一頁剛剛提到不再急投票我也都說即便要變名也要讓公正選舉跟選舉的效率不打折所以大家都有共識公投先行下一頁"},{"start":11546.007,"end":11572.514,"text":"各縣市政府有這樣的共識選務機關有這樣的共識所以請支持行政院的版本下一頁那回到這一頁就是說公投綁大選2018年的選務混亂只有2成8的人民同意而高達6成9的人民不滿意這就告訴我們公投綁大選需要有很好的機制配套未來好現在立法院修法通過"},{"start":11573.334,"end":11596.12,"text":"未來可能公投綁大選會再上路但是選務機關的責任就是維持它的運行不會混亂不會造成人民在選舉投票行使的不便利性那我就要問來下一頁您個人確實有主張但是我認為這個論述還是要再精確一點"},{"start":11597.202,"end":11611.739,"text":"依據公投法第10條中選會就主管機關對於不管人民發動的罷免對不起人民發動的公投或者是立法院發動的公投你還是必須去去審核他是不是符合法律跟憲法的規範對不對"},{"start":11613.137,"end":11636.784,"text":"我是認為他還是要有初步的審核那如果有問題就直接讓他去憲法法庭去做但是現在謝謝你提供未來立法院可能在修法的一個方向但目前並沒有您所說的這個條文就是說如果在中選會在認定在審核上的判準有所異議應當由憲法法庭來做最終的審議這是"},{"start":11638.504,"end":11654.279,"text":"未來法律所沒有的而這可能也會衍生另外的問題因為憲法法庭在審議釋憲的過程還有一定的程序那人民所發動他的對於部分的主張或是立法院的公投案本身也許在時程上沒有辦法等"},{"start":11655.34,"end":11682.896,"text":"這也會有其他衍生的問題但回到現在的法律的規範如果公投綁大選要讓他能夠不至於造成選務的混亂就是我們必須精確的讓合法首先的公投案才能上路不是嗎某些方面是否則從107年到115年我調閱了中選會的資料人民發動的公投案有69案您知道中選會駁回多少案嗎"},{"start":11683.872,"end":11711.259,"text":"不知道35案成立的34案換言之有一半的比例中選會的這個把關還是需要的因為他需要在首先合法的規範公投法第二條就規範了全國性公投跟地方性公投都有適用的要件而且他要符合憲法規定所以在人民發動的公投案裡頭從107年到15年有一半以上經過中選會的把關"},{"start":11713.479,"end":11724.585,"text":"有一半成立一半駁回這會避免了過多的公投你沒有去審核他是不是合法合憲你也必須去把關否則公投綁大選天啊2018年那種噩夢幾十案又來了同樣的立法院的公投案"},{"start":11732.748,"end":11745.422,"text":"立法院的公投案也是要守憲合法所以就像我說的用公投法的修正來推翻憲法的解釋是可以的嗎是可以的嗎"},{"start":11745.953,"end":11767.069,"text":"我覺得這個會觸犯到法治國原則的要求所以我是建議我非常理解您在法律上的一些理解但我認為發言要非常的嚴謹我也希望社會不要錯誤的解讀副主委您認為未來委員針對公投法是否合法合憲合規完全沒有審核把關的權利這非常危險"},{"start":11769.651,"end":11796.629,"text":"你在審核的不是政治的意識形態而是它有沒有符合國家公投的制度的法律的授權跟憲法的授權 您同意嗎同意我給您再最後一次去更正調整您的說法好嗎對於未來如果您當選通過立法院的同意權針對人民發動的公投案跟立法院所發動的公投案您認為中選會獨立機關要進行什麼樣子的把關我認為的把關都是屬於最低限度的把關"},{"start":11797.949,"end":11825.206,"text":"最低限度的不要過分的去干涉我們整個議案裡面內容避免中選會過度的逾越這件事情但是我想最低的限度的要求其實應該是可以達成的守法守憲這就是我們共同的底線好嗎依法行使職權我提醒所有的被提名人沒有政治意識形態而是依法守憲做我們該做的事情這樣你就能夠有很強的底氣不受政治所威脅"},{"start":11826.021,"end":11828.103,"text":"好嗎我們一起加油謝謝胡教授謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳斯亞委員質詢我們現在稱召之委員"},{"start":11847.268,"end":11872.119,"text":"多謝主席有請副主委被提名人 胡教授胡教授 雖然有委員有提到但是我對於您曾經投書媒體認為這個公學綁大頭會讓這個公投認為政黨這個對決的工具那甚至就是喪失了這個公投的這個本質這件事我還是要再請教你請問您現在對於公投綁大選還是這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":11872.719,"end":11881.28,"text":"我會認為如果可以的話讓它其實是不同天其實是一個可以的決定的選擇但是我們現在是要面對的問題是"},{"start":11882.594,"end":11902.115,"text":"法條已經修過了他就是要同天投票但是胡教授我了解你認為公投綁大選可能會讓政黨來主導這個公投議題造成公投失焦可是我的想法剛好跟你相反公投基本上這個公投綁大選基本上是強迫政黨或政治人物他必須他不能迴避他必須針對這個議題去做他的主張或是表態"},{"start":11905.518,"end":11928.325,"text":"那就是說讓選民也能夠有機會知道這個參選人他對於這個議題的想法跟態度根據這個議題他來做出他的選舉的決定換句話說您擔心的是這個公投會影響這個政黨會影響公投可是我的看法剛好是相反的我認為是人民做主的公投"},{"start":11929.125,"end":11936.997,"text":"反而會去影響這個政黨因為我相信台灣選民的數字是越來越高啊他們不見得是根據顏色去投票他們會根據議題看議題然後就來做這個選擇胡教授您贊同我的說法嗎我贊同"},{"start":11944.249,"end":11958.475,"text":"那過去的經驗就是我想你也非常清楚這個單獨舉行的公投他的投票率非常低資訊流通是有限的那結果往往被高度動員反而有可能讓政黨更容易去去做主導"},{"start":11959.936,"end":11979.407,"text":"綁大選你至少可以讓參與率是提高的參與率是提高讓公投的結果更能夠去反映整體選民的整體意志那您剛剛也一再提到修法已經通過了那我認為今年年底的地方選舉很可能很可能就是同時會舉辦公投那我要請問"},{"start":11980.627,"end":12000.643,"text":"這個胡教授因為您過去是反對的當然你現在要尊重這個法律已經通過的事實可是您能夠如實的去執行立法院通過的修法嗎你怎麼樣說服立法院還有台灣人民說你會按照這個修法你會公正如實的去把選務辦好你怎麼來說服"},{"start":12001.263,"end":12026.246,"text":"包委員我們在2018年因為公投綁大選的混亂之後因為當天有10個公投案確實造成一些混亂其實中選會在這邊其實針對整體的選務有做過改革所以在分流制度上面來講其實是已經達成了所以只要公投的案件數不會太多的話我相信其實當天可以秩序其實是可以被掌控的"},{"start":12028.647,"end":12046.276,"text":"我們是擔心說您會不會如實我會如實去辦好這件事情你的主張 我也同意你個人的主張跟這個作為有時候是可以分開的但是你的責任就是要遵守你的責任我想請教你對不在籍投票的看法民眾黨所提的不在籍投票其實是限於台灣島內 國內"},{"start":12048.697,"end":12067.288,"text":"這個移轉投票我們希望讓這個事實上你過去參與的時代力量目前還是也是這樣主張的請問胡教授您現在是支持國內移轉投票嗎我支持國內移轉投票你支持移轉投票這樣我們可以幫助就業就學的因素而不用這個周遮勞頓回到這個戶籍地來投票那但是"},{"start":12071.57,"end":12099.509,"text":"目前不再去投票是多數國家的一個做法連這個中南亞國家包括印尼菲律賓他們都做了那你知道前年印尼大選我們台灣的警察出來幫助幫助這個這個秩序的維安所以這個是我是覺得很丟臉我們可以幫助別的國家結果我們到目前為止還不允許還不允許我們的國民能夠做這個這個移轉這個投票所以我想說是剛剛胡教授您說您是支持的"},{"start":12100.45,"end":12104.782,"text":"那我們法過了以後 你也會按照這個去辦理對不對我們"},{"start":12106.041,"end":12130.624,"text":"立法院法律通過之後中選會會依據立法院所通過的選罷法等相關法規或公民投票法來處理我希望吳教授能夠遵守法律因為我們現在看太多期行政院長沒有遵守法律立法院通過的法律把它視為空氣形同空氣那我再想請教你一件事受刑人權利有民間團體認為非常關注受刑人跟羞辱人的投票權"},{"start":12131.525,"end":12159.825,"text":"那過去中情會認為根本不可能在在監投票那這等於完全剝奪了受刑人跟收容人的他這個憲法賦予的權利那我知道胡教授您在11月去年你也主持過在收容人投票權研討會擔任這個主持人胡教授你認為收容人跟受刑人有沒有投票權我先問你有沒有投票權有投票權只要他們沒有被褫奪公認他們就有投票權那如果有你要怎麼落實呢"},{"start":12160.492,"end":12175.252,"text":"我覺得在投開票所的設置上面來講我們因為要兼顧到公開化以及安全的問題這個部分其實我覺得不管是中選會或者法務部其實應該更努力來解決這問題因為他們有些人不是不在急有些人其實急就在監鎖"},{"start":12176.894,"end":12202.171,"text":"你提到的還是技術面問題嘛你在歐洲嘛歐洲他們就是很多人就有很多國家他就設了這個在間投票嘛這個你們你過去所屬的時代力量他們也是一直用這樣做例子嘛所以胡教授你認為是可行的嗎我認為可行這一次就可以辦了嗎年底的選舉就可以辦了嗎這個我不確定這個可能要跟幕僚機關以及各省市選委會來辦但是從我的觀點來講我一直都認為這是可以做的"},{"start":12206.155,"end":12217.698,"text":"可以做就要去做啊我也會去從我的觀點我也會去推行這件事情謝謝謝謝吳教授謝謝我們感謝陳昭芝委員質詢現在中途我們不需要休息繼續開會因為現在12點了在這裡我們鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":12248.117,"end":12265.225,"text":"福教授好原住民選舉前的困境沒有聽過吧我有聽過原住民議題我其實也有熟悉謝謝你的關注秘密投票"},{"start":12266.994,"end":12290.328,"text":"原住民很多的選舉沒有秘密投票的一個情形雖然憲法規定的很明確無記名投票是方法行之但是因為原住民從原鄉到都會區工作的非常多然後遷积的也很多"},{"start":12291.263,"end":12319.099,"text":"所以相關的這些事實上在都會期原住民的人口數已經達到50%有社會籍的已經達到50%左右所以這樣的一個情形之下一個投票所只有一個人的就有以平地原住民來講就有966人一個投票所兩個人的以平地原住民講來說就是1034"},{"start":12321.127,"end":12345.306,"text":"如果包括三個人的總共有2900多將近3000人那我們看山地原住民山地原住民也是一樣也有類似這樣子情形一到三人的總共有3235人所以他投票給誰一開票就知道他投票給誰所以他就變成說"},{"start":12347.805,"end":12365.896,"text":"會考慮是不是要不要去投票會有這樣的一個情形所以這樣的一個情形怎麼樣去保障憲法徵修條文第十條第十二項保障原住民的政治參與政治參與除了參政權之外還有選舉權選舉權本席透過質詢請這個中選會要這個"},{"start":12375.939,"end":12400.956,"text":"解決秘密投票 質詢了非常非常的多次因為事實上是可以 不修法其實是可以的以公職人員選舉辦人法第57條第三項 原住民公職人員選舉得徵走實際情形 單獨設置投票所或在選舉區內辦理投票"},{"start":12403.789,"end":12430.869,"text":"事實上只有規定 但是一直沒有辦法落實所以本席不得不修法所以今年 去年12月26號三讀通過為保障原住民秘密投票權益 應單獨設置投票然後不受第17條第一項應在戶籍地投票之限制當初在修法的討論的時候中選會還是不支持"},{"start":12432.211,"end":12461.103,"text":"所以這樣的部分如果這個副教授能夠擔任副主委或者是其他的被提名人也能夠擔任委員希望落實這次的一個修正的條例可以嗎 可以接下來談不在己投票原住民族的不在己投票事實上最可以先實施的是"},{"start":12462.153,"end":12483.501,"text":"立法委員因為原住民的立法委員的選區是台澎金所以跟總統一起選舉所以原住民要實施不在籍投票是應該最優先來辦理是可以執行的因為我們每一個投票所都有我們的選民"},{"start":12485.27,"end":12505.878,"text":"都有投票所了就是移轉投票就很容易了因為每個台北市每個都有原住民的投票所所以這個部分是可以先實施的因為沒有實施所以造成我們原住民與非原住民的投票率的差異你想想看以3D原住民來講我們就講第11屆立委"},{"start":12507.546,"end":12535.312,"text":"差距13.83%投票率平地原住民是7%多這樣的一個落差就是因為太遠了我們看這個台灣地圖一個住台北市的鄉親他要到蘭嶼投票回去他的戶籍地就很遠不要說蘭嶼就到屏東或是到台東都非常非常的遠而且還要到山上"},{"start":12536.531,"end":12563.215,"text":"不是到了台東火車站之後 還要到山上所以這個原住民族的不在籍投票更是有它的一個需要性我看了這個印尼 在台灣我們的外勞 印尼的外勞在台灣都是 都投票所以在台灣投票在台灣還不只 不是只有在台北市每個縣市都有投票所"},{"start":12564.498,"end":12587.33,"text":"像這樣他們都可以受得到這樣的一個情形我們確實做不到我們真的是要加油所以這個部分也希望我們這個胡教授以及各位被提名人到了中選會之後能夠優先支持嚴肅民主的不在己投票 可以嗎可以 沒問題謝謝我們感謝鄭天才委員資訊"},{"start":12593.496,"end":12610.125,"text":"咱家習星雲委員 習星雲委員不在咱家省花卉 省花卉委員不在葉延芝 葉延芝 葉延芝不在"},{"start":12619.888,"end":12635.819,"text":"在這被提名人胡柏彥先生所說明和質詢的都已經結束完畢委員習新英提出書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":12641.357,"end":12649.721,"text":"再來我們比提名人的吳博言先生可以先離席可以先離席我們現在的休訓五分鐘"},{"start":12666.591,"end":12677.897,"text":"我們繼續國分前後繼續進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明價值詢問謝謝大家辛苦了"},{"start":12807.111,"end":12807.234,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":13060.815,"end":13066.638,"text":"來 繼續開會 進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明和詢答請黃文玲女士說明主席"},{"start":13077.857,"end":13092.868,"text":"各位委員各位在場的先進大家午安大家好我是黃文玲那這次非常榮幸的能夠受到這個行政院提名為這次的中選會委員的被提名人"},{"start":13093.368,"end":13105.019,"text":"那今天來這裡呢也是要跟大家來分享就是說我其實民國83年就考上律師那一直擔任律師到現在那在期間呢在2012年到"},{"start":13108.842,"end":13129.315,"text":"14年的時候擔任第八屆的立法委員那有短暫的時間在立法院那時候也是在內政委員會那期間呢我在過去從事這個律師的職務其實有辦理非常多的這個選罷法的案件包括會選案當選人這個資格不私認的案子還有"},{"start":13130.035,"end":13143.805,"text":"就是譬如說有假訊息的案件等等所以在實務上或許能夠提供給未來的中選會一些建言當然我本身在2004年的時候還有2014跟18也都參與過"},{"start":13148.548,"end":13168.503,"text":"立法委員的選舉及彰化縣長的選舉在選舉的過程當中當然就會有非常多的選務的紛爭我想我們主席也是身經百戰大家都也很清楚就是選舉可能會遇到的一些糾紛我覺得這一次的被提名人裡面"},{"start":13169.444,"end":13185.009,"text":"其實跟上一屆的感覺上好像比較多的出入因為上一屆我看實務界的律師有好幾位那這一次的被提名人裡面大部分都是學者專家而且都是憲政的學者專家那實務界的好像律師就只有我一人"},{"start":13185.669,"end":13207.825,"text":"那我希望說如果未來有機會擔任中選會的委員我們除了要讓中選會要保持他的獨立性中立性及公正性之外還要維護他的專業跟可信賴性那當然在這個過程之中選務的過程之中確實有非常多的可能會"},{"start":13208.525,"end":13224.542,"text":"涉及到紛爭的部分會影響到這個選務工作人員的部分所以未來如果有機會的話我們也是應該要來維護我們選務人員的尊嚴那以上那希望說就是能夠對這個中選會能夠有所貢獻謝謝謝謝 感謝說明我們這裡黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":13240.428,"end":13264.453,"text":"謝謝主席 我請被提名人請讓我們被提名人委員好 好久不見我稱呼您黃律師好黃律師很高興在這邊看到您尤其是您的父親是以前非常受敬重的中選會的主委我想中選會也好或者是任何選委會的委員都需要"},{"start":13265.373,"end":13282.334,"text":"移植相關的公正跟獨立性那民主選舉的過程裡面不是只有最後一天的結果我想過程很重要過程的公平包括更多的所謂的不孝方法或者是說有一些不正當的方式造成了選舉的不公"},{"start":13283.188,"end":13300.472,"text":"那我個人比較我看到你的問卷大概到大部分都有回答不過我今天要問的是根據有關選舉過程裡面其實最大的一塊叫做媒體不公媒體不公的部分在各個法律其都規定得非常清楚總統副總統選罷法46條還有公職人員選罷法49條在廣播電視"},{"start":13306.013,"end":13331.728,"text":"也從事選舉或罷免相關議題的論證新聞報導或邀請候選人罷免案提議人或被罷免人的參加節目要公正公平處理不可以有無正當理由的差別待遇但是這麼多年來我相信你也選過去我們只要是非所謂主流媒體的支持的對象大概都會在很多媒體中被消失"},{"start":13332.581,"end":13355.393,"text":"包括在我想去年的總統大選也非常的清楚2024的總統大選非常清楚的是某個藍媒 綠媒現在已經台灣人都有一定的既定的印象你會看到有一些藍媒看不到綠色的綠媒看不到藍色的那更糟糕的像台灣民眾黨我們是中間所以兩邊都看不到"},{"start":13356.834,"end":13369.631,"text":"這個部分我們曾經也提出過很嚴肅的控訴那NCC有回答說查無證據啦我們也有檢舉但是回去要給中選會所以我們就不禁要去查到在101年"},{"start":13370.888,"end":13393.858,"text":"在105年其實中選會都曾經對於媒體沒有邀請平衡報導或者是沒有邀請到這些所有的參選人而開罰的紀錄我想請問您您對第一媒體在選舉過程中沒有依法行事第二個105年到現在已經快10年了沒有塵埃任何一個媒體處罰"},{"start":13394.898,"end":13409.756,"text":"所以反而我們會懷念您父親當時當中選會主委的時候我們還有道德勇氣對媒體做相關的裁罰如果有這樣的案子我想知道您的想法跟您對於選舉公平應該在媒體上面怎麼樣來維護中選會的獨立性跟公正性"},{"start":13414.597,"end":13440.218,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想剛剛你提到這個部分其實我深受感同因為我其實我在2014年到18年這兩次彰化縣長選舉我就是以無黨籍的身份參選但是確實是媒體就是全部都把我們的新聞全部都消失被消失掉所以我可以感受到就是說就是選委會在這個"},{"start":13441.319,"end":13462.866,"text":"辦理選舉的過程之中其實它是必須要秉持公正客觀的態度而且其專業的部分那至於就是特定的媒體那他們是不是可以就針對這個部分就是被選舉人就是沒有做公平的報導的部分是不是應該裁罰的部分其實我記得我那時候有去抗議過"},{"start":13463.806,"end":13493.446,"text":"但是似乎是好像沒有作用因為他們認為那個是NCC的所以這就是我們今天中選會其實在101年曾經罰過當時是華氏在政見發表會之後沒有播出某個候選人的會後記者會被裁罰了20萬基本的該有的所以我認為中選會應該要有基本的就是法律的價值它的價值就是要維護選舉的公正公平"},{"start":13493.886,"end":13523.232,"text":"然後每個這個候選人都能夠在這個媒體上能夠被揭露我想大家都可能很清楚的知道這個公正性的確在現今的台灣媒體環境裡面做不到但是我相信中選會應該要做到中選會如果中選會還有道德勇氣的話我們十年來都沒有成過半子案子但是105年那時候還有某些節目只邀請特地的候選人還有"},{"start":13523.832,"end":13550.867,"text":"只邀請某些特定的沒有給予其他選區同樣的候選人相同的機會就被裁罰了40萬跟20萬這是我想中選會委員必須要秉持的一個中正的立場所以他們那個時候的中選會委員可能有道德勇氣才會做這樣的一個裁量所以我們也期待我們未來有機會擔任委員的話也希望能夠秉持這樣一個立場是 只要依法就好公平就好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13554.336,"end":13580.236,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝黃珊珊委員北提名人黃文玲女士在說明和詢問已經結束我們北提名人黃文玲女士可以先行離席我們休訓五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":13600.777,"end":13611.381,"text":"謝謝大家的收看"},{"start":13632.579,"end":13645.603,"text":"謝謝大家謝謝大家"},{"start":13673.537,"end":13673.557,"text":"來,請坐"},{"start":13678.372,"end":13702.382,"text":"那個要不要就是因為我們就就是就我們一個人一個人這樣看他的狀況但是我覺得就是"},{"start":13704.722,"end":13723.253,"text":"我覺得 我等一下去跟他溝通好了因為我們 因為目前的話我們諮詢人就我們諮詢人可以拖八分 等一下還要等一下我算一下 四分多 八分多"},{"start":13735.708,"end":13757.381,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13768.275,"end":13783.93,"text":"喔 可以可以 因為報告人是八分鐘 然後兩分鐘對 對 對 說明大概幾分鐘就三分鐘兩分鐘 沒關係 因為我也在三樓 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13791.954,"end":13805.708,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13820.623,"end":13850.452,"text":"然後再下一個說明完再下一個所以它還有一遍大概就是這樣我會聽到我前面講的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話"},{"start":13866.325,"end":13866.365,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13890.919,"end":13899.364,"text":"來 我們繼續開會我們繼續進行被提名人李立忠先生的說明和詢問請中選會委員被提名人李立忠先生說明"},{"start":13914.861,"end":13932.458,"text":"王主席還有各位委員還有我們張秘書長還有各位在座的先生跟女士我是李李仲那很高興這次被我們行政院提名為中央選舉委員會委員的被提名人那我在此報告那我們都知道民主"},{"start":13933.839,"end":13958.77,"text":"選舉制度乃是憲政秩序與民主制度的一個核心那它的公正性跟可信賴性跟穩定性直接關係人民對我們台灣民主的一個信賴的關鍵中央選舉委員會肩負了選舉與公民投票的規劃執行與監督的重任"},{"start":13959.935,"end":13986.054,"text":"其專業性 獨立性跟依法行政對於民主制度之健全運作具有關鍵的意義唐友信擔任中央選舉委員會一職個人將超越黨派以維護憲法精神確保選舉公平強化制度信賴為最高自我期許"},{"start":13987.659,"end":14002.521,"text":"然而 擔任中央選舉委員會委員並非權力之所在而是責任與信賴之所繼本人之抱負在於以專業 理性與公正"},{"start":14003.78,"end":14020.969,"text":"首先合法協助台灣建構一個經得起政治競爭社會檢驗與歷史評價的選舉制度為我們民主發展盡一份長期而穩定的力量以上報告謝謝各位"},{"start":14024.705,"end":14042.041,"text":"謝謝感謝說明因為沒有委員長去接訊所以我們的李立中的說明到這裡 提名人李立中先生可以先行離席我們休訓兩分鐘謝謝"},{"start":14047.498,"end":14057.107,"text":"有機會這樣議席議席要不然坐在那裡聽一些大家留意的意見這樣也很好謝謝 辛苦辛苦有機會這樣"},{"start":14075.623,"end":14092.375,"text":"哎呀"},{"start":14100.401,"end":14112.586,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":14136.376,"end":14144.378,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14171.233,"end":14187.669,"text":"來 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生之說明跟詢問我們現在中選會委員被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生說明"},{"start":14196.281,"end":14208.906,"text":"主席 秘書長 麥委員 還有全體的女士們 先生們我是福音科技大學蘇嘉鴻蘇老師"},{"start":14210.917,"end":14237.499,"text":"我在這個學校任教已經有32年的歷史在去年因為種種的機緣巧合被推薦被提名所以有這個機會來這邊接受大家的提問我在這裡想要講兩件事情第一件事情"},{"start":14239.857,"end":14263.016,"text":"從早上到現在所有的委員們對被提名人的提問大概聚焦在幾件事情上面大概不外就是公投綁大選以及不在籍投票另外還有其他的問題不管怎麼樣這都是一個值得追求的"},{"start":14265.632,"end":14269.512,"text":"未來方向 它是一個值得追求的未來方向"},{"start":14270.58,"end":14296.194,"text":"但是我們必須要很誠實的去面對中選會現在當前的行政量能未來的考驗其實都在於未來的中選會能不能在自己的行政量能上面有所擴張 有所深化來因應這些挑戰"},{"start":14298.404,"end":14315.497,"text":"所以在一個值得追求的方向它代表了一種進步的價值但與此同時我們對於中選會的目前的行政量能卻沒有與時俱增的一種調整這完全是不現實的"},{"start":14317.079,"end":14342.805,"text":"那中選會的組織編制據說是57個然後預算編制是55個總之他不會超過60個人那地方選委會是負責選務工作所以不管是境外的或者是這個省委的啦等等的這些各式各樣的挑戰"},{"start":14344.113,"end":14364.228,"text":"那麼中選會其實是沒有辦法回應這個現代的時代需求跟社會的這樣的殷切的期待所以在這種情況之下我認為就是我要講的第二點中選會的委員們應該是要專任的目前是無幾職"},{"start":14368.666,"end":14376.903,"text":"那NCC跟這個公平會呢都是專任的那這個以兼任的"},{"start":14377.697,"end":14401.874,"text":"兼職的 無幾職的委員要來因應這些剛剛講過的重重的挑戰實在是分身乏術了 實在是分身乏術幸好此時此刻的審查會是在這個禮拜如果是在上週上上週的話是學期最後一週要辦這個"},{"start":14404.127,"end":14430.513,"text":"期末考 要簽考 要印考卷什麼的怎麼可能來呢要把本職工作薪水顧好所以這麼工作 這個工作這麼兼具對委員來講 確實無幾值的兼職這是一個很奇特的現象所以我們必須要讓獨立機關的獨立性因為委員的踴躍性獲得保障"},{"start":14431.383,"end":14459.479,"text":"那這個機關才能夠因應未來的這麼一些更多的一個挑戰那麼第二件事情就是說那麼有關於這個選舉罷免的訴訟選罷法的這個訴訟目前都還是在民事法院裡面它明明是公法訴訟那這個部分我們可能在未來也可以再重新做個調整跟思考以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":14462.782,"end":14467.985,"text":"謝謝感謝首名我們這裡定期麥一貞委員質詢謝謝主席 有請蘇老師蘇老師謝謝老師好 真的辛苦了"},{"start":14491.857,"end":14520.191,"text":"所以我們說想要請問一下因為現在的選舉制度你有說了就是憲政由內政部主管選務由中選會負責的分立設計原意在於落實責任政治就是維護選舉的中立但你也指出實務上因為全職的交"},{"start":14521.171,"end":14538.448,"text":"交換 所以呢 往往就是導致改革就是遲締甚至使中選會受制於行政關係難以回應高度流動社會於新型的風險所以呢 我想要請教兩點第一 在維持分立的架構下 你認為"},{"start":14545.695,"end":14569.137,"text":"中選會應清楚定位以依法執行選務的獨立機關而非非推上政治的正義第一線第二若短期仍維持分立體制是否通過交錯的任期專任化外部專家參與度透明等的"},{"start":14569.797,"end":14581.743,"text":"制度設計就是逐步強化中選會獨立性與公信力我們要的就是可以獨立作業嗎 這樣子的一個目標"},{"start":14583.439,"end":14599.071,"text":"是的 我原您的提問通通都是我的答案我就是肯定的很好 所以在我們的問卷裡面也有回覆指出說選舉權不是刑"},{"start":14602.413,"end":14627.282,"text":"形式的權利 而是國家必要積極保障的基本權 當人民因為求學啊就業啊 或者服役或職群無法返回戶籍投票的時候 我國家就是要提供替代制度 實質上就是就限制其他投票並"},{"start":14629.623,"end":14651.214,"text":"對年輕人還有流動人口造成不平等所以我們你認為在就是本人到場還有身份查驗也秘密投票的前提下國內移轉投票在實質上不是便利措施是"},{"start":14652.652,"end":14679.282,"text":"國家例行憲法保障參政的必要制度你也強調說國內轉移投票不同於資訊或者電子投票風險可控不宜被過度上網為國安問題那麼有立法完成不在籍投票的法治化的那個就是投票的法治化"},{"start":14680.12,"end":14692.096,"text":"你是否認為中選會在制度設計就是執行上應如何就是權力就是最大為原則從如何讓更合格"},{"start":14694.1,"end":14719.586,"text":"選民安全投票出發因為現在很多地方就是各國等於是說印尼 菲律賓他們都是可以就是在台灣在投票但是我在這邊強調的是說我們的民眾黨說的就是在台灣 在台灣 在台灣是移轉投票而已所以你覺得是說這樣子我們能做得到嗎"},{"start":14722.008,"end":14742.545,"text":"以目前国内的移转投票我认为中选会可能步步为赢也是步步为赢赢得胜利的赢这件事情我觉得中选会可能还可以勉强的"},{"start":14745.747,"end":14770.143,"text":"跟上社會的需求但是如果我們繼續做民主深化的話我們還要再做其他更大的發展的話以目前我再強調一次我所了解到的中選會的行政量能是做不到的所以必須要有所調整才能夠因應時代的變遷回應社會的需求 以上"},{"start":14771.363,"end":14797.666,"text":"中選會應該做得到現在我們是台灣是科技國家所以這個是說應該要做得到不是說還在不一定做得到我覺得這個是已經我們台灣已經應該要做得到的所以接下來我想要請教一下因為現在就是兩岸人民的關係明定大陸地區人民在"},{"start":14798.867,"end":14822.203,"text":"涉及滿十年還有我是外配也是滿十年就是依法登記為公職候選人但是立法則憲法徵定條文裡面第十一條所做出了特別規範但近期引發就是行政機關用國籍法張大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14828.787,"end":14854.174,"text":"人民比例外國人額外要求放棄所謂的外國國籍形同就是以行政解釋架空的特別法所以你在這邊也是就是你說理解所以你也是說依法依法就是涉及滿十年原則是大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14854.514,"end":14857.955,"text":"參政權是否以憲法保障的基本權應用優先因為在我們的兩岸條款這邊就是說優先應用所以排除國籍法的類型就是來去適用所以在目前我們的部會"},{"start":14875.522,"end":14892.814,"text":"法律見解出現就十分之甚至有行政官員公開宣稱說陸配參政權已死的情況下你是否認為說中選會應依特別法明文辦理選務而非"},{"start":14895.456,"end":14897.719,"text":"而非就是被動承受這樣子可能違憲的行政解釋以免就是實質剝奪人民的參政權報告委員"},{"start":14909.515,"end":14936.473,"text":"台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例相對於國籍法民法諸多的相關涉及的法律目前就是一種特別法優先適用於普通法的這樣的一種法律適用關係這是沒有疑問的如果啦在這個特別法的跟普通法的這種優先適用關係不成立的話"},{"start":14937.577,"end":14960.613,"text":"那大陸地區人民來談 繼承這個遺產的上限兩百兩百萬可能就會怎麼樣呢那就不用遵守了 回到民法它的印記份或者是什麼樣的那都很可能超過兩百萬所以這個特別法的問題 這是第一個第二個 這個叫做期待可能性"},{"start":14961.734,"end":14988.463,"text":"如果中國大陸是沒有放棄國籍的這樣的一種法治的話強要我們的大陸配偶回去大陸去放棄國籍在客觀上沒有其他可能性強人民之所難以此來剝奪人民的參政權這個我不能認同 以上報告"},{"start":14989.042,"end":15012.56,"text":"好 謝謝 再給我一分鐘謝謝主席 謝謝我們的老師給我們的說明所以我常講的就是說我們不要因出勝地來去決定我們在台灣的我們拿身份證是跟我們國民一模模一樣樣參選也是一模模一樣樣的當選也是一模模一樣樣不要再拿出勝地來去"},{"start":15013.741,"end":15020.589,"text":"就是在台灣努力的人所以在最後就是請教我們的教授你在問卷中也多次強調選舉制度的核心不在政治操作的便利而在"},{"start":15029.36,"end":15032.201,"text":"憲法持續的穩定以及人民參政權是否能對實質保障在這樣子的一個關鍵問題你是否未來擔任中選會的委員在面對高度的政治爭議或跨部會法律的見解的分支時"},{"start":15050.348,"end":15068.241,"text":"你將如何具體拿捏中選會作為獨立機關的分機確保制度解釋回到法律明定性以憲政的原則真正守住民主制度與人民參政權的長期保障是 報告委員那個超越黨派依法行政公正公開 以上報告"},{"start":15078.763,"end":15092.09,"text":"好 太好了 謝謝希望未來就是要看你要讓我們的國家正常運轉讓保障我們的人民 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 感謝麥真委員質詢南北提名人蘇嘉鳳先生的說明跟質詢都已經結束"},{"start":15105.802,"end":15114.647,"text":"被提名人舒嘉宏先生可以先行離席休息兩分鐘 謝謝大家"},{"start":15143.251,"end":15145.052,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":15153.558,"end":15173.178,"text":"因為是很方便,現在我們是在滿國之大地,很方便,因為如果東南歐,那是一個很舒服的地方,很舒服的地方"},{"start":15173.899,"end":15198.916,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":15204.111,"end":15209.814,"text":"慢慢來"},{"start":15241.724,"end":15255.032,"text":"謝謝 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人舒芝喬先生之說明和詢問請中選會的委員被提名人舒芝喬先生說明主席 黃委員各位委員"},{"start":15268.98,"end":15279.649,"text":"張秘書長還有在座各位先進 大家好非常榮幸能夠在這邊接受立法院的審查"},{"start":15283.568,"end":15299.828,"text":"很榮幸被台灣民眾黨推薦然後受行政院提名為中選會的被提名人我目前在東吳大學任教目前是東吳大學政治系的教授我自己的研究專長研究領域是"},{"start":15301.67,"end":15312.881,"text":"憲政體制還有選語制度那對於選語制度事實上有蠻多的這個世界各國選語制度有蠻多的一些觀察跟研究所以我自己個人認為就是說有這個機會有這個榮幸"},{"start":15317.626,"end":15334.906,"text":"如果能夠到中選會來服務的話其實是貢獻我自己的所長所以作為一個學者能夠進行公共服務有這樣的機會其實我是非常覺得是樂觀其成的而且也是覺得很榮幸能夠有機會擔任這樣的工作的"},{"start":15338.98,"end":15356.6,"text":"我對於自己的這個中選會的一個如果說將來能夠有機會能夠擔任中選委員的話我想我對自己的一個自我的定位是超越黨派然後依法行政然後公平公正的性質權雖然我是受台灣民眾黨所推薦但我不是台灣民眾黨的"},{"start":15358.121,"end":15380.522,"text":"政黨的代言人因為做一個中選會這樣的獨立機關我做一個研究憲政憲法的學者其實我對獨立機關本身的一個期許是相當的深厚的所以如果說我真的有機會有榮幸擔任中選會委員的話我想這是我一個對自己的一個非常深切的自我的期待自我期許"},{"start":15381.701,"end":15396.941,"text":"那就是我覺得中選會在過去這幾年來在政治的紛擾當中事實上確實它的公信力跟它的一些它的獨立性似乎受到社會各界的某一些質疑不過其實我還是相當"},{"start":15397.982,"end":15417.982,"text":"程度肯定這個中選會的同仁的在選務工作上的很多的努力那只是說在台灣目前這個朝野的這樣的一個對立情況之下不免會有一些對中選會這個獨立機關的這樣的一個一個政治上的一些批判那我認為就是說強化中選會的"},{"start":15420.203,"end":15442.335,"text":"公信力 獨立性是這個未來中選會要進一步去努力的一個方向那我也希望就是說我未來如果有幸作為一個中選會的委員在這個合一制的運作之下能夠貢獻自己所長然後這個對於這個台灣的民主深化民主鞏固以及這個民主的韌性盡一分心力我想我就簡短報告到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":15445.214,"end":15468.939,"text":"謝謝 感謝說明我們今天定期張祺凱委員質詢家屬教授 主席你先"},{"start":15471.638,"end":15498.671,"text":"所以說今天從游營榮游主委到副主委到目前最熱門的被問到的就是不在即投票了不在即投票游營榮游主委提到的是他贊成可是他要求從公投開始做事實上最近這幾天有看到民進黨立院黨團向前跨了一步立院黨團的幹事長鍾嘉斌講說必要的時候從總統大選都可以開始做"},{"start":15500.814,"end":15516.386,"text":"那我看你回答我們這個問卷你是贊成不再急投票的特別是台灣民眾黨現在提出來版本國內移轉投票有沒有可能 有沒有可能如果你獲得提名完之後我剛剛講的是三個階段"},{"start":15517.492,"end":15534.959,"text":"游英龍公投到了民進黨黨團連總統大選都可以了有沒有可能進來之後如果成功被提名通過這個中選會的這個提名之後進來之後有沒有可能在今年的年底縣市長的投票有可能可以做不在籍投票嗎"},{"start":15536.167,"end":15564.966,"text":"我想謝謝委員那個詢問就是不在於投票現在當然要等那個法律通過嘛所以中選會作為獨立機關最重要值得是依法行政啦所以我是很樂見就是說寫期待就是說這個不在於投票法能夠通過那事實上我覺得目前對於不在於投票的一些疑慮我想確實是存是我想可以肯定的事實上你剛提了一個非常重要依法行政是就是民眾黨這個版本已經提出來了"},{"start":15565.706,"end":15579.747,"text":"如果立法院三讀通過的民眾黨這個版本那就是中選會就在依法 依法憲政嘛 對不對那如果來得及的話就是今年年底的縣市長選舉可能就可以開始做這個台灣民眾黨這個版本而且這個版本"},{"start":15581.65,"end":15607.019,"text":"不是什麼有什麼國安餘力什麼境外勢力介入的他沒有國外也沒有兩岸我們這個界定的就是國內的移轉投票就是你還是要親自要去投跟你有提到說這跟通信投票又不一樣對不對所以執行上應該是沒有問題的那我問你一下因為剛剛有這個委員就回答說中選會的行政量能做不到你覺得做不做得到"},{"start":15608.209,"end":15632.064,"text":"我覺得中選會當然就是他會一個比較謹慎的態度在面對這個事情啦可是我自己會認為就是說如果真的法律已經通過了那中選會當然就是要盡力去配合辦理那我也認為中選會在一定的時間準備之下是應該有一定的準備的量能去推動這件事情的依法行政然後盡快推動是可以"},{"start":15632.484,"end":15661.614,"text":"有機會在年底依法來行政來做的對不對其實是有可能的事實上你是專門研究選舉的日本都已經實施不再舉投票大概二十幾年了二十幾年了我看那個報導上面寫他說日本連在攔戟日本人去攔戟都可以投票他們甚至可以提前投票跟美國都是一樣的南韓也有嘛他們號稱科技大國怎麼我們的技術是有問題的連我們的移工"},{"start":15663.364,"end":15690.604,"text":"在台灣的印尼的移工 菲律賓的移工他們都有投票啊所以老實講我們要趕快去推動要不然真的會被世界上笑啦好 OK這個題希望你以後可以盡力去推動那當然就是可能有些人可能意見會不一樣可是最重要最重要的就是這個法有沒有在最近完成三讀另外我看你的回答裡面有一個非常重要的這個上次總統大選的時候啊有一個非常有名的這個網紅"},{"start":15693.528,"end":15710.901,"text":"愛麗莎莎 她因為轉發了有些民眾有在質疑說是不是有作票結果後來你們中選會就告了她了後來沒有起訴 黃國昌就在問她說中選會到後來一句抱歉都沒說 你怎麼看這樣一個事情"},{"start":15713.269,"end":15734.61,"text":"我想中選會作為一個獨立機關它的基本的做法應該以公開呈現為主要優先的一個選項我想提起訴訟這個是一個比較相對來講我覺得個人來講是一個比較激烈手段呈現把事實呈現不是急於去輕鬆你的態度是這樣所以以後希望中選會不要急著去輕鬆最後問一個問題最要緊的問題"},{"start":15737.886,"end":15753.351,"text":"這個去年引起最大爭議的就是國民黨提了實質廢死的這個公投在中選會被廢掉了你怎麼看這樣一個事情如果你當選了中選會的這個委員之後如果再來提一次這個實質廢死這個案子你會怎麼樣來處理這個案子"},{"start":15757.492,"end":15782.386,"text":"這個問題確實是比較在憲政協議上我覺得是比較有真理的不過我簡單回答就是立法院所提的公投案依照目前這個公投法的規定其實中選會是沒有審查權的所以當立法院真的提了這樣公投案我想中選會我如果說這個案子重新這個同樣發生的話中選會必須依法辦理那只是說確實這個用憲法"},{"start":15783.286,"end":15807.609,"text":"就是公投去推翻憲法判決本身這個事情的這個議題我覺得我作為一個學者我是有一點疑慮的不過作為一個中選會這個獨立機關的角色我認為就是依法行政我想這是最優先的考量中選會去沒收立法院的這個提案那不就變成是太上立法院了對不對 而且你講到一個重點你今天質詢 我覺得你答詢得非常好你都是依法行政在做事情所以如果這個案子如果"},{"start":15808.67,"end":15815.296,"text":"最近又被提出來 請依法行政來做事情不要急於去沒收 好不好好 好 非常謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 我們感謝張之凱委員質詢"},{"start":15828.578,"end":15850.395,"text":"我們繼續經營被提名人蘇志喬先生說明跟詢問都已經結束了在這裡被提名人蘇志喬先生可以先行離席我們休息兩分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":15858.928,"end":15867.874,"text":"一幕,一幕啦,我們要五分啊,改兩分啊,開始啦,前輩,前輩,馬上好,欸,兩分鐘啊,DJ,啊,這樣喔,這個,這個,這個,這個主持人,"},{"start":15891.894,"end":15900.716,"text":"今天等於說對我們來講就是七場啦所以一定要切啦對,對我們來講就是七場"},{"start":15912.664,"end":15925.411,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":15938.533,"end":15939.394,"text":"30秒30秒他有那個壓縮那個時間"},{"start":15967.372,"end":15979.099,"text":"我們繼續進行被提名人陳忠義先生說明及詢問這中選會委員被提名人陳忠義先生說明"},{"start":15990.647,"end":16006.678,"text":"主席 張紅蘿委員 吳啟明委員 在座各位官員我是這次中選委員被提名人陳忠義很榮幸也很高興能夠來立法院來答詢 接受審查"},{"start":16008.834,"end":16031.53,"text":"我想今天坐下來 我是當然 人家說好酒定慢醉不是淡於中宿 那我想今天聽了吳思瑤的選舉創意美學我們很有啟發 也聽到張宏祿委員對選辦法第98條之一虛為欠席戶籍 意圖使人當選五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":16032.23,"end":16044.938,"text":"所以我們都聽到很多委員的寶貴意見我們都會吸收來加以運用那我有能性的通過的話我一定會秉持公正公平獨立專業依法來執行職務謝謝各位 謝謝 以上謝謝 感謝蕭明我們前期的委員長黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在"},{"start":16064.195,"end":16077.851,"text":"比提名人陳忠義先生說明及諮詢已經結束了比提名人陳忠義先生可以先行離席"},{"start":16081.653,"end":16106.042,"text":"本次會議定期的這項跟問出委比提名人的本院委員除了不在場議員全都已經發言完畢 審討結束委員有蘇巧慧 莊瑞雄 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有請蘇老師蘇老師謝謝老師好 真的辛苦了"},{"start":21.892,"end":50.208,"text":"所以我們想要請問一下 因為現在的選舉制度 你有說了就是憲政由內政部主管 選務由中選會負責的分立設計原意在於落實責任政治就是維護選舉的中立但你也指出 實務上因為全職的交"},{"start":51.188,"end":55.092,"text":"交換所以呢往往就是導致改革就是遲締甚至使中選會受制於行政關係難以回應高度流動社會於新型的風險所以呢我想要請教兩點第一在維持分立的架構下你認為"},{"start":75.709,"end":99.062,"text":"中選會應清楚定位以依法執行選務的獨立機關而非非推上政治的正義第一線第二若短期能維持分立體制是否通過交錯的任期專任化外部專家參與度透明等的"},{"start":99.842,"end":111.771,"text":"制度設計就是逐步強化中選會獨立性與公信力我們要的就是可以獨立作業嗎 這樣子的一個目標"},{"start":113.473,"end":129.11,"text":"是的 我原您的提問通通都是我的答案我就是肯定的很好 所以在我們的問卷裡面還有回覆指出說選舉權不是行"},{"start":132.433,"end":157.302,"text":"形式的權利 而是國家必要積極保障的基本權 當人民因為求學啊 就業啊 或者服役或執勤無法返回戶籍投票的時候 我國家就是要提供替代制度 實質上就是限制其他投票 並"},{"start":159.657,"end":181.265,"text":"對年輕人還有流動人口造成不平等所以我們你認為在就是本人到場還有身份查驗也秘密投票的前提下國內移轉投票在實質上不是便利措施而是"},{"start":182.686,"end":193.309,"text":"國家例行憲法保障參政的必要制度你也強調說國內轉移投票不同於資訊或者電子投票風險可控不宜被過度上網為國安問題那麼有立法完成不在籍投票的法治化的那個就是投票的法治化"},{"start":210.915,"end":222.13,"text":"你是否認為中選會在制度設計就是執行上應如何就是權力就是最大為原則從如何讓更合格"},{"start":224.134,"end":249.62,"text":"選民安全投票出發因為現在很多地方就是各國等於是說印尼 菲律賓他們都是可以就是在台灣在投票但是我在這邊強調的是說我們的民眾黨說的就是在台灣 在台灣 在台灣是移轉投票而已所以你覺得是說這樣子我們能做得到嗎"},{"start":252.039,"end":262.015,"text":"以目前國內的移轉投票我認為中選會可能步步為營也是步步為營"},{"start":266.455,"end":292.383,"text":"贏得勝利的贏這件事情我覺得中選會可能還可以勉強的跟上社會的需求但是如果我們繼續做民主深化的話我們還要再做其他更大的發展的話以目前我再強調一次我所了解到的中選會的行政量能"},{"start":293.203,"end":300.179,"text":"是做不到的所以必須要有所調整才能夠因應時代的變遷回應社會的需求以上"},{"start":301.377,"end":327.684,"text":"中選會應該做得到現在我們是台灣是科技國家所以這個是說應該要做得到不是說還在不一定做得到我覺得這個是已經我們台灣已經應該要做得到的所以接下來我想要請教一下因為現在就是兩岸人民的關係明定大陸地區人民在"},{"start":328.904,"end":357.643,"text":"涉及滿10年還有我是外配也是滿10年就是依法登記為公職候選人但是立法則憲法徵定條文裡面第11條所做出了特別規範但近期引發就是行政機關用國籍法張就是大陸地區的人民"},{"start":358.824,"end":376.5,"text":"人民比例外國人額外要求放棄所謂的外國國籍形同就是以行政解釋炸空的特別法所以你在這邊也是就是你說理解所以你也是說依法依法就是涉及滿十年原則是大陸地區的人民"},{"start":385.308,"end":388.496,"text":"參政權是否以憲法保障的基本權應用優先"},{"start":391.96,"end":397.482,"text":"因為在我們的兩岸條款這邊就是說優先應用所以排除國籍法的類型就是來去適用所以在目前我們的部會法律見解出現就十分之甚至有行政官員公開宣稱說陸配參政權已使的情況下你是否認為說中選會應依特別法"},{"start":421.372,"end":433.409,"text":"明文辦理選務而非就是被動承受這樣子可能違憲的行政解釋以免就是實質剝奪人民的參政權報告委員"},{"start":439.532,"end":466.499,"text":"台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例相對於國籍法民法諸多的相關涉及的法律目前就是一種特別法優先適用於普通法的這樣的一種法律適用關係這是沒有疑問的如果啦在這個特別法的跟普通法的這種優先適用關係不成立的話"},{"start":467.591,"end":490.647,"text":"那大陸地區人民來臺 繼承這個遺產的上限兩百兩百萬可能就會怎麼樣呢那就不用遵守了 回到民法它的印記份或者是什麼樣的那都很可能超過兩百萬所以這個特別法的問題 這是第一個第二個 這個叫做期待可能性"},{"start":491.748,"end":518.495,"text":"如果中國大陸是沒有放棄國籍的這樣的一種法治的話強要我們的大陸配偶回去大陸去放棄國籍在客觀上沒有其他可能性強人民之所難以此來剝奪人民的參政權這個我不能認同 以上報告"},{"start":519.056,"end":545.559,"text":"好 謝謝 再給我一分鐘 謝謝主席謝謝我們的老師給我們的說明所以我常講的就是說我們不要因出勝地來去決定我們在台灣的我們拿身份證是跟我們國民一模模一樣樣參選也是一模模一樣樣的當選也是一模模一樣樣不要再拿出勝地來去卡就是在台灣努力的人"},{"start":546.36,"end":565.133,"text":"所以在最後就是請教我們的教授你在問卷中也多次強調選舉制度的核心不在政治操作的便利而在憲法持續的穩定以及人民參政權是否能被實質保障在這樣子的一個關鍵問題你是否未來擔任中選會的委員在面對高度的政治爭議"},{"start":576.88,"end":596.669,"text":"或跨部會法律的見解的分支時你將如何具體拿捏中選會作為獨立機關的分機確保制度解釋回到法律明定性與憲政的原則真正守住民主制度與人民參政權的長期保障是 報告委員那個超越黨派"},{"start":604.617,"end":617.186,"text":"依法行政公正公開 以上報告好 太好了 謝謝希望未來就是要看你要讓我們的國家正常運轉讓保障我們的人民 謝謝謝謝委員 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謝謝主席我想今天這個公聽會我們已經足足等了30年了早在民國84年 98年 101年考試院都曾經推過專法那到現在115年了我們還在這邊討論到底專法有沒有設置的必要我們實在是等了太久"},{"start":24.332,"end":42.629,"text":"那這超過30年的怠惰我們換來的是什麼我們看到的是行政中立從一個制度上面ABC的概念變成了一個國家級的大笑話我們看到外交部護照印不出來就怪立法院我們看到內政部租金補貼沒錢也怪立法院"},{"start":43.51,"end":61.675,"text":"我們看到行政院為了搞搞他的那個無差別的大罷免為了配合執政黨的無差別大罷免他叫大家不要送解凍案然後逼著一堆公務員出來爆料說長官叫他們不准送解凍案到立法院來然後才不得不把解凍案送過來"},{"start":63.123,"end":90.612,"text":"所以我們今天看到連行政院長都不執行立法院三讀通過的法律如此荒謬帶頭違法不編列預算還公開把立法院監督國會叫做迴憲亂政這麼如此的不中立的狀況下就是我們怠惰了30年的下場民主國家沒有人這樣這個只會出現在獨裁國家那久而久之我們的行政中立變成一個只管基層高層都管不到的一個雙標"},{"start":92.153,"end":116.248,"text":"的概念 那公務員 基層公務員 兢兢業業那個派出所警察為了行政總理兢兢業業 但是高層政務官呢隨便愛怎麼樣就怎麼樣內政部長出來到處支持罷免的活動在那邊喊要做台灣國的主人讓總統變台灣國的總統等等的這些荒謬的言論都是這樣出來的 先前花蓮那個"},{"start":118.509,"end":140.315,"text":"災情的時候民進黨的81人的群組那個截圖流出來裡面有立委裡面有高階的政務官在救災的當下他們不是討論怎麼樣協助救災他們討論的是要怎麼樣用有殺傷力的訊息來攻擊在野黨這就是我們現在講的行政中立嗎好 結果我們的行政院的政務官高官"},{"start":142.319,"end":155.22,"text":"還大言不慚的說收到還說要跟我們的四方部長跟我們內政部長來談要怎麼做這就是我們的行政中立嗎這些行為就是行政官直接介入到政黨的工坊"},{"start":157.019,"end":180.817,"text":"這個根本他們在談論的事情第一個跟公務根本無關第二個就是濫用行政資源第三個還嚴重侵害政府的公信力這樣的群組流出來還大言不慚的在那邊替自己辯解事實上我們看到的就是在那邊一群81人群組立委跟這些政務官搞在一起那邊思考怎麼樣做政治攻擊這就是我們現在的政府"},{"start":181.517,"end":207.459,"text":"所以今天的提綱我有三個主要核心的主張第一個 權責分明我們鎖定的是中央政治任命的官員而不是針對到民選的首長因為縣市首長是一票一票選出來的跟他關聯的有選罷法 有地方制度法所以我認為這個東西不需要納入本法的規範這個部分連上市內政部的報告也都認同我的這個想法"},{"start":208.66,"end":227.294,"text":"中央部會的這些首長 政務 政委他們是官派 他們不是民選他們沒有人管但是他們卻掌握了很龐大的行政資源所以這一群毫無民意基礎的這些權利者才是我們真正要規範的對象第二個 政治責任"},{"start":228.095,"end":255.382,"text":"我希望要避免讓這個司法介入的這個問題因為我們不能讓政務官的去留就交給司法來決定因為我們現在目前司法人民信任度非常非常低這歷次的民調就是一次比一次難看那我們認為說現在的司法很容易被操弄我們不應該讓執政黨有利用這種檢查議題的這個機會用檢調系統來去干預到這些政務官的去留"},{"start":257.054,"end":273.006,"text":"再來 我主張建立要有明確的辭職機制當政務官的政策錯誤 言行失當他就應該要展現他的政治風範 要主動請辭這才是民主國家責任政治的概念第三個 我們要確立主管機關是考試院"},{"start":274.315,"end":297.609,"text":"我看到考試院這次的報告一直在那邊花了好大的篇幅一直說政務人員不歸考試院管從考試院推出的第一部這個中立法到現在已經超過30年了還在推來推去 行政院推給考試院 考試院推給行政院結果呢 推到最後是什麼 沒有人管了啦這些政務官沒有人管了 他們不用經過國家考試出來也沒有人管 他變成太上皇"},{"start":298.129,"end":312.041,"text":"但是呢 我再跟各位報告這些政務官他有沒有領國家薪水 有啊他要不要服從公務員服務法 要啊那公務員服務法的主管機關是誰 考試院啊所以考試院你憑什麼推給行政院呢"},{"start":313.211,"end":331.577,"text":"所以考試院你明明是公服法的主管機關你不能說今天這個事情跟你無關尤其涉及官員這個體系的廉政跟倫理這考試院本來就是主管機關考試院如果說連論述什麼叫做兼職什麼叫做行政中立"},{"start":333.537,"end":352.509,"text":"這個都全部交給行政院去自己說了算那不就天下大亂了行政院那麼多機關自己解釋自己的這個部會說這個可以兼職那個部會說這個不能兼職那不就天下大亂了嗎所以我們公務員的解釋為什麼同意考試院來就是我們全責要劃分然後"},{"start":353.871,"end":367.577,"text":"我還沒跟各位說這一次我就看到那個考試院的那個論述我真的覺得這會造成天下大亂大家要注意到今天全序部的報告他說要交給各用人機關自行判斷"},{"start":369.315,"end":385.367,"text":"他不要管考試院全局部不想管他這個中不中立交給各機關去判斷那我請問你今天行政院長會認為自己的覆密在81人群組的那個發言配合立委的那個要做政治攻擊的發言他會認為有違法嗎不會吧"},{"start":386.448,"end":408.106,"text":"法務部長各部長他會認為自己有違法嗎在群組裡面幫忙一起喊打喊殺在野黨會認為自己違法嗎不會啊所以久而久之變成是求援兼裁判所以我覺得這個全區部的這個報告真的是不對啦這種需要統一解釋的東西怎麼會交給各個用人機關自己去決定呢"},{"start":410.048,"end":434.301,"text":"這個丟回去給行政院這個不叫做回歸責任政治這個叫做縱容政治護航我們現在看到每天都在我們這塊土地上面上演所以我希望考試院站出來用一個客觀解釋的角度而不是讓行政機關自己愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋替自己擦肢抹粉替自己的違法行為護航我不要是這個樣子立法院"},{"start":436.031,"end":464.331,"text":"這邊我們絕對不接受兩個憲政機關像打乒乓球一樣把行政總理這件這麼重要的事情行政院丟給考試院考試院又丟回給行政院讓國家處於無法可管的這個狀態下面我自己當公務員當了25年不包括來做民意代表我做了25年的公務員我很清楚國家要穩定發展靠的是制度絕對不是單靠個人操守不是單靠個人"},{"start":465.77,"end":470.64,"text":"自己的嚴格要求就能夠讓國家穩定發展我們一切要靠的是制度"},{"start":471.929,"end":500.698,"text":"所以我這次提的公務人員行為基準法我不是為了任何的政治攻防我只希望未來一個執政者不管哪一個黨執政都不能夠濫用行政的權力然後來做他的政治上面的攻擊我希望讓行政回歸專業讓公務體系找回尊嚴讓人民相信政府的存在是為了公共利益而存在行政中立啊 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15張太好的消息了顯然我們很多人還沒有中過獎但是沒關係我覺得財政部這邊其實有很多好消息大家注意聽就可以入寶山但是不要空手而回比如說普發現金一萬塊"},{"start":251.896,"end":256.192,"text":"部長現在去領一萬塊的人比率大概有多少"},{"start":256.973,"end":259.574,"text":"跟委員報告已經領取的有2228萬達到預估領取人數的94.55%在這裡跟大家報告就是說領取的截止日是4月30所以還沒有領取的民眾盡快領取也報告一下4月1號到4月30出生的新生兒我們要顧慮就是媽媽可能要坐月子或都在忙"},{"start":283.366,"end":293.555,"text":"對於4月1號到4月30出生的新生兒可以到5月22號之前到郵局去領取我們希望就還沒有領取的可以再按照這個時間內去領取我覺得這次的普發現金做得不錯大家都領到了而且都很平順希望這個寶貴的經驗"},{"start":304.725,"end":313.972,"text":"在下一次或者是明年後年哪一年稅收超征的時候本席現在已經在修法在連署當中"},{"start":314.844,"end":338.5,"text":"就是以後只要稅收一超徵超徵過每一個門檻 某個門檻的時候我們就直接劃拨到所有全民的帳戶只要稅收一超徵我想這個小確幸是很必需要的我們也感謝財政部其實財政部都是一閃一閃亮晶晶"},{"start":339.541,"end":351.089,"text":"只要有認真聽的大概都可以覺得很開心所以今年因為馬年也快到了希望新年我們今天就也不要去罵人我們都多一點鼓勵和氣融融希望兵五年馬年大家就是馬上幸福馬上發財接著我再講一些發財的事情"},{"start":367.815,"end":388.031,"text":"請台銀 我問一下部長你們自己推動的以前有一個存摺叫做黃金存摺本席存在這個地方我就講說你們自己要發行黃金存摺你們鼓勵員工 鼓勵大家通通去開戶"},{"start":389.693,"end":401.148,"text":"定期定額不斷的去儲蓄那部長你自己有沒有去開一個黃金存摺那時候的黃金沒有記錯的話每盎司應該是1270塊的美金部長你有買嗎"},{"start":408.683,"end":414.126,"text":"因為我只有公教存款一個月一萬塊哇 那就差一點啊老師在講 你都沒認真聽來 我請台銀 台銀喔"},{"start":421.452,"end":449.064,"text":"這個業務大概總經理比較熟所以我們請施瑪麗施總經理好 請施總經理台銀有瑪麗讓我們的黃金存摺越來越美麗請那個施瑪麗總經理那施總現在開黃金存摺我們也都知道台灣有一個黃金王子叫做楊天立一起上來吧"},{"start":450.725,"end":472.913,"text":"從那個時候年輕王子現在變成已經快當國王了歲月重重快20幾年了他從以前就不斷的提醒因為他是我學長以前我們都當他貴賓他來介紹一下黃金的走向果然他講得非常準就從每盎司1270塊一路飆升請問"},{"start":477.478,"end":502.98,"text":"現在開黃金存摺的這個戶數有多少那整體來說的話這些投資黃金存摺的他們大概賺了多少錢現在一盎司是多少各位請那個美麗的施瑪麗要讓黃金越來越美麗的施總經理說謝謝委員我先回答第一個問題大概現在目前整個台灣的黃金存摺的開戶超過500萬戶"},{"start":505.062,"end":508.044,"text":"哇 500萬戶那如果是台灣銀行的話是超過75萬戶那我自己是102年以前在那個買黃金存摺那時候就是1270塊但是"},{"start":522.853,"end":543.117,"text":"有沒有買但是有 我有買而且是定期定額一個月大概一萬塊買你看但是這個中間有起起落落後來也有賺在一千六百多塊的時候賣掉你太早了啦所以今天很扼腕今天的價格已經台穎的賣出的話已經超過五千兩百元對"},{"start":550.814,"end":572.454,"text":"你看看 所以我們的黃金國王 王子變國王可不可以請教一下楊天立 楊總經理是不是 楊處長現在黃金的走向 為什麼它就是起起伏伏有人說它還會持續往上漲 你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":573.417,"end":599.752,"text":"是 報告委員基本上目前當然全世界對於金價都非常的看好那最主要的原因還是在於避險那以貴金屬來講的話黃金白銀它在過去因為被當作貨幣使用過所以當大家對於這個市場的風險意識升高的時候那會有一些資金尋求一個避風港所以會來到黃金跟白銀這一類的貴金屬那所以未來的話"},{"start":601.347,"end":621.89,"text":"黃金的走向還是會持續平穩向上是 報告委員基本上以目前來說的話趨勢上大家都是看會繼續往上但因為短期上漲的幅度非常大所以其實要留意風險那你自己有沒有買那個做黃金存摺"},{"start":622.922,"end":646.47,"text":"市保委有都定期定額希望改天有機會再讓你的寶貴經驗分享給大家那當然本來今天銀行也都來了因為來不及了我覺得我們銀行這幾年表現也不錯但是還是要需要再接再厲因為再接再厲好福氣我們看民間的這個銀行"},{"start":647.89,"end":671.565,"text":"那個股價都很高我們也期許在莊部長不要威脅啦你要用利誘因為這個董總啊薪資太低了啊你人事結構也好好想一下多鼓勵他們把餅做大把成效績效做出來希望大家新年通通過一個太平快樂年謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝羅民財委員"},{"start":677.102,"end":679.531,"text":"接下来请赖会员为咨询谢谢"}]}},{"id":"167264","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167264","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d7a9170976e552b1011b3bb87f1b5dc7a6156b03e721490b7a31332d4c37b8b925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:24:29 - 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大家都是高興的因為台積電要去設廠所以他的台積電的供應廠商希望跟著去設廠究竟能夠服務台積電"},{"start":245.782,"end":268.971,"text":"像一些設備廠商吳承士的漢堂什麼這些都上市公司啊他們現在都急得要趕快去啊不用政府去邀請說因為我們跟美國談判了什麼條件條投資2500億所以你們這些在國內的廠商你趕快給我去美國投資不用政府要求啦人家做生意急得不得了啊在我來看是這樣不知道你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":270.265,"end":273.067,"text":"委員說得很適合其實赴美投資的產業他本身有他自己的需求比如說對服務客戶更接近然後或者有潛在的一個訂單而且這些大廠商其實他本身的自由資金如果充沛的話他也不建議要跟銀行貸款或者以其他的方式來做融資包含發行公司債這些部分"},{"start":291.201,"end":311.359,"text":"或者他足够有的担保他也不需要再另外送所谓的信用担保所以这个部分所谓信用担保的机制是一个建立但是并不是一下子也要到位或什么事实上按照需要的额度再来做一些调整以上对所以是找尽任何的理由调任何的毛病希望能够阻挡这个谈判嘛"},{"start":313.065,"end":323.474,"text":"那問題是這個很嚴重啊如果在立法院不通過這關稅等於就沒有談了 回到原來 原來是多少原來是20%然後還有疊加對不對20%加疊加 對那不得了 那3、40%的關稅他現在跟你講說15%談得不好 我不要給你過讓你回到40幾%的關稅 天下有這樣的邏輯嗎這個邏輯會通嗎"},{"start":340.68,"end":350.706,"text":"連15%不疊加其實產業界都覺得很肯定然後也會去爭取相關的訂單假設我們台灣的國會你們送進來之後也跟韓國一樣搞了半年不給你過的話有可能美國說你們就沒有誠意啊這個沒有條件的這個關稅要給你減量到這個地步你也不要啊那我們做生意是跟你的對手比嘛"},{"start":367.475,"end":386.48,"text":"今天美國市場我們台灣一年 巨年一年的跟人家出超1500億美金欸你賺了人家1500億美金欸如果以國際貿易的講究平衡化 換位思考美國不用跟你談什麼東西你就給我出超這麼多一套國際貿易平衡的理念我就可以對你出手啦"},{"start":387.827,"end":407.579,"text":"美國是因為把台灣當作是他現在的準盟友然後需要台灣幫他重建製造業所以用了非常容易的條件跟比其他國家更優惠的條件要讓台灣台灣得到位有的地位什麼時候美國的財政部長公開講台灣這個國家還請你到這個財政部裡面去跟他簽約"},{"start":416.462,"end":424.765,"text":"以前只能夠躲在咖啡廳或是在這個文化辦事處或是在那個什麼在台協會這樣子的非官方機構裡面弄嘛對不對這一次完全承認你是一個國家沒有等於沒有條件現在還意見一大堆之前一直罵說不趕快去談讓這些傳統產業很難生存"},{"start":446.408,"end":472.646,"text":"台灣的生意人沒有這麼差啦 台灣生意人非常拼啦我們過去被中國共產黨打壓所以台灣都不能參加國際的貿易組織包括RCEP 包括CPTDP都被中國阻攔跟其他國家簽FTA也很困難所以台灣過去其實一直比人家關稅就高可是台灣的生意人非常了不起提著一個皮箱全世界做生意"},{"start":473.952,"end":478.616,"text":"還能夠把台灣的經濟去撐起來剛剛股市台積電破1800啦掏空台灣台積電1800然後股市破將近三萬三千點啦三萬兩千七百點啦天天節節高一直漲經濟過熱今天發表那個"},{"start":496.95,"end":525.397,"text":"燈號已經變成紅燈了 都已經過熱了還在講說台灣的經濟很糟糕 民不聊生我就不知道為什麼大家認知可以差距這麼大他的資訊從哪裡來的不要光是看那些中國共產黨給你的資訊跟媒體啦不然的話看到的都是害死自己當初台大教授說台積電會跌破五千塊五百塊 現在一千八啦當初聽他話放空的人 現在應該跑路啦"},{"start":528.18,"end":555.899,"text":"所以真的是睜開眼睛看看這個世界不要活在自己的象牙塔裡面講偷工台灣就最好笑了台積電有哪一家工廠關起來然後移到美國去啊沒有欸 還在增加投資欸還要再增加今年又宣布五個廠再加上新建做的現在還要再增加18個廠欸台灣的電力供應 土地供應 水力供應都很吃緊 大家拼命在想辦法要解決欸"},{"start":557.523,"end":584.503,"text":"然後這樣子的一直增加投資在台灣一直增加台灣的製造量然後說要掏空台灣到美國去如果今天把工廠關起來然後移到美國設廠台灣的工人都淺散像以前馬英九時代大膽吸盡這個樣子去中國那才叫做掏空台灣啦對不對台灣的製造增加台灣的工廠增加台灣的用人一直在增加"},{"start":586.82,"end":607.561,"text":"然後因為他的需要他的業務需要要在美國增加供給所以他在美國做增加廠這樣叫掏空台灣那如果這樣子可以通的話一間大餐廳開在台北市的他覺得說台中的客人他也要服務去台中開了一家分店台北市這一家繼續營業可不可以叫做掏空台北啊"},{"start":608.837,"end":617.442,"text":"江是不是掏空台北我們叫他的擴電擴電的是啊明明企業就在擴展那你在說掏空台灣這邏輯到底是怎麼一回事啊所以我覺得我們的政務官要大膽的用力的辯護聽到這些邪魔歪教的歪論相信他話的人持大虧啦相信台灣我們一直穩健大步在前進當中好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":636.874,"end":638.159,"text":"好謝謝吳秉瑞委員部長請回接下來請賴思寶委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167263","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167263","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d2be47e83a6e5154d11b3bb87f1b5dc7a6156b03e721490b7a31332d4c37b8b925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:12:30 - 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謝謝主席莊部長還有議會各列席的官員還有本會的委員以及媒體記者 女士先生我們是不是請那個莊部長好 請莊部長委員長"},{"start":20.695,"end":45.065,"text":"總部長早我請教因為經濟日報有報導有日媒分析說美國2024年整個海關數據中國大陸是美國所有亞洲貿易夥伴中最容易受到232條款的關稅影響的國家可能波及以及商品達到1420億美元日本自資"},{"start":50.467,"end":73.882,"text":"那這個暴露在232調查的商品價值約有差不多1070億美元南韓差不多1020億美元南韓G3日本G2脆弱的國家如果全面實施這些關稅可能會威脅價值多達6210億美元的這個亞洲貿易部長那美國關稅政策衝擊"},{"start":80.746,"end":102.797,"text":"並沒有消失對整個亞洲國家所產生貿易的衝擊程度不一身為亞洲國家之一的中華民國也不是只有和美國才有貿易往來加上台灣來爭取多年亞太地區貿易協定始終不得其門而入萬一亞洲貿易又受到美國關稅"},{"start":104.784,"end":123.917,"text":"整個政策的衝擊那我請問台灣要怎麼去面對這些關稅、貿易政策所帶來一些負面的這些衝擊部長你有什麼看法跟委員報告有關美國的關稅政策的措施當然跟許多國家到出口到美國的相關的產品都有說"},{"start":124.597,"end":126.399,"text":"因此各國都積極和美國去做商議同樣的我們台灣也有我們的談判團隊和府院們一起合作跟各機關的合作我們的談判在1月15號已經簽署一個MOU我想大家都很清楚尤其是在232條款"},{"start":142.556,"end":146.217,"text":"我國是爭取到了一個最優惠的待遇在赴美設廠期間的產能配額都是0%然後未來也會超出配額的部分最多也就15%我想這個部分對我國的出口尤其我們對美國的出口裡面支通訊的產品事實上佔了76.5%相當高的配額"},{"start":163.422,"end":165.783,"text":"那所以這個部分對我們的出口是有很大的注意那另外呢我們這一次談判的15%不疊加的部分和許多競爭國家是拉齊平的比如說像水五金產業的22.6%我們也降到15%和中國是47.6%越南是22.6%那像手工具業台灣也是從23.3%降到15%那中國是48.3%越南是23.3%"},{"start":192.637,"end":209.367,"text":"我们跟竞争的主要对手来说取得一个相对的一个起平或者是更是为优势的一个位置那其实对我国的经济的发展可以看到这个谈判完了以后各个工会都表达非常的一个肯定那这个部分对我们的产业是有帮助的"},{"start":209.81,"end":228.456,"text":"我們希望如此但是因為那些前一陣子差不多將近十個月其實這些傳統產業慘兮兮的甚至有的把員工辭掉有的甚至於說沒有辦法繼續維持下去做很多的變革你現在要搶回原來的客戶其實還是有很多的難處那個部長"},{"start":236.129,"end":253.739,"text":"川普表示由於韓國國會還沒有通過去年與美國談定的這些貿易協定所以說他將韓國的汽車 木材 製藥以及其他對等產品的關稅從15%提高到25%那我請問部長川普調高韓國關稅如果陳真你認為對韓國貿易的台灣進出口商"},{"start":264.146,"end":264.688,"text":"會有什麼樣的衝擊跟影響"},{"start":268.089,"end":295.158,"text":"韓國和我們的貿易之間其實是逆差的逆差是不是對 是逆差他進口我們的超過了我們對他的出口那韓國在許多產業裡面事實上跟我們事實上是有相關的一個競爭的一些關係包含汽車零組件汽車零組件以及有關的3C產品都是一個競爭關係當然我們的產業必須在取得好的關稅的待遇以後"},{"start":295.658,"end":323.279,"text":"我們要強化我們的韌性在國際間的一個競爭優勢上能夠做得更好因為有一些台灣的喜歡買韓國貨的這些消費者當然一定會受到一些影響跟衝擊根據韓國媒體指出國會沒有通過協定主要是韓國在野陣營強烈的杯葛認為談判成果根本就是驅辱外交"},{"start":324.48,"end":341.016,"text":"那因為韓國被迫承擔了一張高達數千億美元的這個巨額的投資帳單也嚴重損害整個國家的利益那我請問部長你認為美韓關稅目前的狀況會不會也在台灣發生會不會"},{"start":343.458,"end":345.721,"text":"我想跟委員報告這次我們談判團隊所談的一個結果已經那個OTN也在記者會行政院記者會都有一個詳細說明產業界都覺得是肯定的那未來當然相關的協議都必須送大院來做審議那我們認為這個對於產業界有利的部分我們希望大家都能夠很順利的完成相關的作業"},{"start":368.001,"end":394.331,"text":"現況是中華民國簽了一張比韓國更多金額的這個巨額投資給美國令人沒有辦法接受令人諱解的是台灣比韓國的經濟規模小卻要掏出更多的錢來投資美國甚至於還可能整個犧牲這個先進半導體的談判籌碼那我請問部長站在國家整個利益"},{"start":395.071,"end":399.895,"text":"利益的本位上你認為在野黨應該同意台美關稅的協議嗎"},{"start":402.403,"end":405.245,"text":"跟委員報告我們對這次談判對美國的投資其實不見得是會比韓國高第一個2500億美元是企業的自主投資美國的產業那這個部分也是經過徵詢相關產業以後那他們基於更接近客戶以及爭取更多的訂單因此對於這個供應鏈的一個產業去做海外的佈局"},{"start":426.156,"end":441.159,"text":"這是自主投資產業自主投資並不是由政府來出資投資另外2500億美元這個部分是由透過信用保證基金的方式來支持金融機構對於赴美投資產業的最高限額2500億美元做融資的貸款但事實上並不見得會用到這個部分那所以這個部分並不沒有所謂的我們有所謂的上旋路過絕對是沒有的這是自主投資以及"},{"start":453.801,"end":466.272,"text":"以及是提供信用擔保而且信用擔保也不見得都會用到那我們也會分期分年按照運用的情況來做設立這個部分我想委員應該是很了解部長因為大家都擔心台南團隊說過很多遍我們的整個經濟體跟美國跟韓國跟日本比較我們是真的是差很多但是我們投資的那個額度"},{"start":478.002,"end":505.684,"text":"講實在話比人家高太多太多大家就是在擔心對不對你整個產業外移等於裡面就空洞而且你那些傳產講實在話他們是只能夠維持我們很多就是員工 人民去那裡就業能夠維持他們的生計那你要是說這些比較優勢的這些產業全部都移出去講實在話未來我真的不敢想像部長"},{"start":507.918,"end":536.661,"text":"對美投資是我們產業的一個延伸跟擴展並不會掏空台灣而且大部分產業還是會核心還是會留在台灣的希望如此 但願希望如此部長 先前財政部公布去年稅收統計時受到美國對等關稅的影響中央銀行實施選擇性的信用管制措施影響營業稅和不動產相關的這些稅收出現了短針前年稅收三兆七千"},{"start":538.901,"end":565.766,"text":"這個515億元比預算預算數我們短少了505億元並出現近五年來首次的短徵因為以前都是超徵啦這一次短徵 部長現在台灣和美國關稅這個談判已經有底定基於國內產業的不確定因素也消失 那我請問你認為今年國內的營業稅的預估是不是一定比"},{"start":566.826,"end":593.866,"text":"114年还好因您的看法营业税的部分当然会但是出口倡望的话营业税会退税所以这个部分那当然国内的一个内需的需求的稳健以及经济的发展对营业税都是有注意的那也跟委员报告营业税其实现在扣除了3%的奖金发放1.5的还有1.5%的基增经费全部都纳入中央统筹分配税款拨归到地方去运用了"},{"start":594.286,"end":618.858,"text":"那個按照主計總署對明年經濟成長的預測原預測經濟成長率為3.54%可能上修機率大那請問部長你認為到底是電子產業因為AI需求能高峰所以說持續整個推升國內的經濟成長率還是受到臺美關稅拖累處以低基期"},{"start":619.798,"end":647.708,"text":"的這些傳統產業今年可能由谷底來翻轉而有機會帶動整個國內經濟成長率的上修您的看法呢主計總處原預估今年115年的經濟成長率是3.5%但是我看不管有相關的一些智庫以及國外的經濟國外的一些預測機構對台灣的經濟成長事實上是都認為可以上修的好我希望這個"},{"start":651.039,"end":670.66,"text":"這個我們希望老百姓要的就是希望能夠經濟提升那不是美國講任何我們全部都配合甚至於還加碼因為你包括你看阿拉斯加那個整個也人家日本韓國都沒有簽憑什麼我們去跟人家簽對不對400多億的美金"},{"start":671.761,"end":691.881,"text":"對不對那這裡這個又要這個國防又要增加國防預算一兆2500億又要阿拉斯加的簽然後這裡那裡講實在話一個整個國家大政最重就是要安定最重要要安定然後怎麼讓經濟提升老百姓要的是安居樂業"},{"start":692.682,"end":707.836,"text":"是委員 我們談判團隊都是秉持維護國家的利益 產業的利益還有國民的健康都是朝這樣的一個目標而且達成了我們四大目標希望如此啦 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝林德福委員部長請回 接下來請吳秉瑞委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167270","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167270","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d1e161d122c07925511b3bb87f1b5dc7ac551decc99d7f3b220347047a26059635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:11:54 - 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請莊部長是 部長早安聯長我想針對統一花票的給獎還有推行的一個預算來跟部長做一個探討當然就是統一花票的一個抽獎那其實就是跟我們日常生活其實是相關的"},{"start":23.63,"end":47.158,"text":"那就是說每天買東西我們會去索取花票會不會中獎這個是我們生活上的一個經驗那在這裡跟部長跟那個署長討論一下就是統一花票相關經會的一個編列跟執行那這個非常明確的我們看到了就是說這個法院上沒有問題我們就是從那個"},{"start":50.546,"end":59.991,"text":"前年的那個營業總稅額提撥3%來支付可是如果我們看到的就是說在115年你的這個預算書裡頭"},{"start":65.407,"end":78.235,"text":"那你編了就是1971億可是你這個統一花票如果你用那個3%來提撥的話那你其實才是1790億這個數字那你多出來的18億是從哪邊來的"},{"start":90.577,"end":100.18,"text":"在這裡面因為百分之三算出來以後除了給獎之外那還有需要一些行政的一些經費那這裡面獎金其實是佔了將近百分之九十六都是發送獎金那還有一些就是一關系統的維運還有發售經費以及推行經費"},{"start":110.763,"end":116.513,"text":"這個部分是這樣的一個做編列那最主要還是作為獎金發放所以你的獎金就佔了96%將近96%"},{"start":123.92,"end":138.01,"text":"對 相關經費 對就其中有關獎金的部分就達到96% 對所以就是說如果那你這樣子114年的這個預算數的話因為你受台美關係的一個影響你少編了那115年那為什麼會多編呢"},{"start":143.376,"end":152.399,"text":"我們是按照營業稅的全年的預算數預算案數來估3%對金額來這樣算那114年度因為是我們當時編的以後在立法院審議的時候被通山掉了這個經費所以下降當時有通山那所以減少那115年我們因為目前預算案還沒有審我們是按照全年的營業稅的預算數"},{"start":172.346,"end":185.255,"text":"來按3%做編列好 你是因為就是114年被統三了那賴世保委員他有質疑你就是說你的115年那你編的這一個營業稅收入的那個預算總數那個的657億的這個3%變成是197億那還沒有收到的錢你怎麼編預算啊"},{"start":196.856,"end":218.062,"text":"這個可以解釋一下嗎所以每一年大概都是這樣我們還沒有收到但是我們還是要因為依照法律是全年收入的3%所以我們要先編這個編在稅出的部分那稅入歸稅入所以都會編都用這樣的方式來編還沒有收到但是還是要先編那我們就會按照這樣的數字來安排每一期要開發的開獎的一個組數所以說這個編列預算沒有問題沒有問題就是說"},{"start":223.023,"end":240.715,"text":"就是說有些委員之一你說你這個編列預算是不是你用你的行政財產權還是說用其他的一個方式變成這樣的一個情況沒有 我們都是按照我們先估一個營業稅的全國收入的預算案數來做編列的"},{"start":241.365,"end":259.893,"text":"好部長剛才我聽到了就是說你們對電子花票的一個推廣的一個成效你們感到非常非常的滿意那本席今天就是這個帶了兩張花票特別跟你做參考這個是電子花票這個是傳統的花票傳統花票他"},{"start":260.553,"end":268.541,"text":"它有一個200塊的一個特別獎那雲端的它是500塊那這個雲端的話正如你們講的推廣的這麼好那是不是相對的對我們這些偏鄉這些偏鄉的這一些百姓的話顯然是有點吃虧"},{"start":283.215,"end":306.663,"text":"為什麼他變成一個數位的二等公民因為我們很多老人其實他沒有辦法用智慧性的一個手機那你看你現在所有就是說我讓你用一個台南台南的一個本席的選區裡頭11個區其實他這裡才只有三個區是達到了你的那個雲端花票的一個標準那"},{"start":307.734,"end":330.738,"text":"後面的幾乎幾乎有很多就是說他還是用在資本花票裡頭那針對了這個情況的話就是說我們好像看到了你們推廣的這些數字非常的漂亮可是實際上實際上對於偏鄉的這些人顯然就是不太公平那部長你怎麼看待這個事情"},{"start":332.456,"end":355.275,"text":"我想委員您這樣的一個建議非常好我們也要去除了都會型的以外在偏鄉的部分讓民眾也會去用所謂的雲端發票那用了雲端發票它這中獎機會當然也就跟著增加那你用什麼方式呢偏鄉你用什麼方式呢因為我們現在看到就是你的總體那個成長量"},{"start":356.636,"end":385.618,"text":"那可是我們沒有看到你那個縮小那個偏鄉的一個差距是不是有一些方式有一些方式就是說我們從店家當然推廣是非常重要推廣了直接你們有沒有就是說去強化強化就是說到農會去到廟宇去還有到長照的機構去還是說中午共餐的地方這個其實就是最基本的因為你要普及嘛"},{"start":386.638,"end":393.47,"text":"你希望來普及嘛那你店家徵購的這一些那個設備有沒有辦法我們去鼓勵他"},{"start":394.923,"end":416.025,"text":"我们其实也有一些鼓励的一些措施我们希望尤其是有一些商家可以使用云端发票那我们都鼓励然后国税局也会下乡去做辅导除外我们对于优秀的厂商商家也会做鼓励跟颁奖那我觉得委员您所提到的就是说"},{"start":416.846,"end":421.467,"text":"長輩他沒有這個手機裡面的手機條碼以至於他縱使想要用雲端發票而沒有辦法有載具讓他刷然後進入所謂的雲端發票這個部分那我們這一次在有關推廣計劃裡面已經有做一些調整跟修正那委員您所提出的這個部分我們會把它納進去看用什麼樣的方式除了對於賣家就是所謂的商店"},{"start":441.551,"end":444.575,"text":"來做處理之外同時對於消費者的部分因為他本身沒有這方面的意識的話那我們可以看用什麼方式讓他可以更深入他沒有經驗的話你要加深他的經驗他使用的一個經驗對 你只要 你看"},{"start":459.975,"end":463.216,"text":"這個你這樣宣傳刷這一張兩百塊得獎兩百塊刷這一張得獎五百塊這個非常顯而易見要不然我來整個我講的時候我就來講我就幫你講這些事情可是問題是你的配套要出來配套要出來啊那這些配套的話就是說我覺得"},{"start":482.003,"end":507.076,"text":"部長你講的還是有點空話我希望就是說你可以講的比較具體因為我們鄉下的長輩他很多就是用健保卡健保卡幾乎比他的身份證他用到的次數還多那有沒有機會就是說我們把這個載具這個載具其實你那個條碼都可以刷出來就是鼓勵他們把它貼在他的那個"},{"start":508.217,"end":525.297,"text":"那個健保卡那個上面然後當然是要綁定戶頭啦這個的話其實這個一個很小的動作如果我們財政部很具體的去把它推動的時候我相信對這一個電子花票的一個推廣馬上會看到成效"},{"start":526.057,"end":535.062,"text":"是的我想我們國稅局在有很多地方都有所謂基徵所以及分局要更深入了解當地的一個情況然後用什麼方式加強推廣那當然這個部分我們也可以跟委員請教也就是長輩們他最習慣用什麼我們用什麼樣的方式來讓他們更接受這樣的一個方式來做消費"},{"start":546.829,"end":569.844,"text":"是 你講到你的國稅局我要特別提醒你你這個次長的人事跟後面整個署長還有就是你的國稅局局長這個一大掛的人其實都是在等這個上端的這個次長的人事案你全部一堆都塞車了你知不知道這個情況"},{"start":571.84,"end":591.582,"text":"相關的人事我們會做通盤的考量會也快盡速處理是你要盡速啊你要盡速啊就是這個大家其實在那邊就是人心惶惶啊到底誰要去當市長誰要來當署長然後局長誰來那個這個整個就是說可以坐在這個位置好好的來做事情是謝謝委員執教是好"},{"start":594.166,"end":595.649,"text":"所以在這裡還是要特別再跟部長就是說比較具體的一個那個"},{"start":603.089,"end":627.645,"text":"建議了就是說電子花票在這個城鄉差距上你在鄉下的一個推動事實上他是有他的一個必須要可是你要用對方法這個方法這個有賴於就是說大家的一個用心我還是建議就是說我們用在我們的健保卡我們這個條碼把它貼在我們的這個健保卡上面的話我相信這個成效會很快很快就"},{"start":628.886,"end":641.653,"text":"表現出來了會在這裡還是那個請部長好好考慮一下委員的建議我們會納入研議參考用什麼方式去做我希望就是說你這個一個月的時間可以提出來一個比較好的一個推廣的方式一個月內給委員報告是謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝賴會員委員"},{"start":657.12,"end":658.811,"text":"接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167267","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167267","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d11d0426ce93b73ab11b3bb87f1b5dc7ac551decc99d7f3b282b6391befdefecc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:48:23 - 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請莊部長我也好部長 本期想教教您一下去年我們現在八大工庫行庫當中總共賺了多少錢這個總金額我先不清楚是不是那沒關係我們請八大行庫的工庫行庫董事長上來一下請各位董事長上台"},{"start":27.202,"end":44.434,"text":"我一一詢問我先問一下台銀的部分林董事長你們去年賺了多少錢委員好我們去年是創新高327億創新高然後土銀賺了多少錢"},{"start":46.272,"end":61.583,"text":"公務員報告我們去年是賺的稅錢是兩百億三千四百萬兩百多少兩百億三千四百萬兩百一億喔那有沒有創新高啊有有創新高好那個兆豐銀行多少三百九十五億有沒有創新高"},{"start":70.238,"end":77.362,"text":"應該還好差不多好那第一銀行邱董事長多少去年也是創新高金控加起來是稅前是330幾億330幾億330好然後接下來是那個華南陳董事長"},{"start":96.365,"end":124.308,"text":"我們去年也是創新高創新高稅前是超過300億稅前超過300億好合作金庫林董各位報告我們去年213億也是創新高也是創新高那彰化銀行胡董包委我們彰化銀行去年創新高稅前211億2101111好來中小企業銀行李董"},{"start":126.499,"end":144.901,"text":"報告委員我們去年也是獲利創新高稅前是152.5億好像只有兆豐沒有創新高而已其他都創新高一個一個來問創新高我請問一下林董既然創新高股票也上升對不對我問一下員工年終獎金要給幾個月"},{"start":146.748,"end":174.354,"text":"我們國營事業就受到這個國營事業管理法的規範不管我創多高都是4.44.4那土銀也不用問了就4.4好 趙鋒趙鋒要給幾個月報告委員目前規劃大概是8個月因為營運跟金融差不多8個月8個月平均都8個月沒有最高8個月平均平均平均8個月好然後那個接下來邱董事長易營幾個月"},{"start":175.834,"end":183.056,"text":"報告委員 目前我們也是規劃在八個月上下也是八個月上下好 接下來華南銀行幾個月詳細的數字還沒有出來不過我們會比 應該會比去年高一點現在已經快過年了 還沒出來大概多少 比照八個月可以嗎七個多月七個多月 七個多月 幕僚給說七個多月那核庫呢"},{"start":204.105,"end":211.687,"text":"我們目前規劃是應該會超過七個月也超過七個月 你是有說好嗎 差不多 張華英好我們接近八個月八個月 也接近八個月我請問一下 中小企業運行幾個月 中小企業運行來"},{"start":227.199,"end":248.707,"text":"幫委員依照我們的講求辦法的話應該會超過8個月要超過8個月請各位董事長請回我就剩下我問部長全部都創新高幾乎只有趙風鈞可能還不太確定有沒有有沒有創新高"},{"start":251.204,"end":264.441,"text":"也創新高金控也創新高八大公股都是創新高都創新高那我問一下這年總獎金有沒有創新高部長"},{"start":266.382,"end":293.985,"text":"我想他們會依照績效來發給應該的你應該要求他們因為不是給公司就給股東就給員工股東就已經股票帳面價值已經有提升了你是不是銀行獲利創新高是不是員工的年終獎金也應該要創新高這比較符合比例原則不是嗎是啊 支持委員的說法所以說如果沒有創新高的你就好好要求他們一下可不可以"},{"start":295.284,"end":315.96,"text":"我不敢要求他們我只能要求你啊他們不需要要求他們自動就會鼓勵員工然後會給你好的一個獎金我給你一個數字你會後跟我講如果年終獎金沒有創新高你一個列舉給我好不好沒有創新高一個月可以嗎我不知道委員您是說沒有創新高要怎麼樣營業額有創新高你"},{"start":316.841,"end":336.057,"text":"年终奖金也要创新高年终奖金如果跟着这个获利没有创新高的话就应该被检讨对不对就是没有善待员工好 是来接下来那个麻烦那个台湾银行上来一下台湾银行那个林董林董好"},{"start":337.577,"end":352.211,"text":"林董那黃金的RWA台銀去年的部分的專案已經創辦已經成功在創新園區辦得不錯它已經達到四個效果了不論是自動化也好或者是同步交割要縮短這個結算也好降低風險也好"},{"start":353.112,"end":366.403,"text":"那我問一下因為這個RWA的部分應用面的部分可以到一個現實的資產的部分還有包括台幣跟資產跟日幣你這個部分你們會要求去申請這個事辦嗎"},{"start":368.785,"end":384.178,"text":"會的 跟委員報告大概什麼時候這個我們跟財經公司還有其他八家不管是公股的或者是其他的純民營的金融同業我們本來就組建了一個平台什麼時候 什麼時候試辦我們去年就已經做成這個實驗的成功實驗是什麼"},{"start":385.779,"end":400.705,"text":"實驗事辦是事辦事辦就是今年開始我們會因為金管會也有指示說希望我們可以成立一個對啊你們都實驗成功了你們還在拖這沒有意思吧你們是一個指標嘛你們去年成功今年就應該事辦嘛會會會今年會去申請那這個事辦的重要性你如果擴大到其他的法幣的話的用意是什麼呢如果將來金管會它這個專法如果通過的話虛擬貨幣專法通過你就馬上可以接軌了沒錯"},{"start":413.531,"end":427.941,"text":"因为台言师有一个示范性的作用我希望把这个部分做一个关键的一个引导麻烦你给我一个答复一个月内给我一个答复你们进度预计是什么样的方式接下来我请部长"},{"start":429.162,"end":445.587,"text":"部長 因為最近高齡化的社會大家對退休的經濟安全保障都非常的在意相對勞工的部分相對是比較少但是以部分的話勞工目前的話不管是企業這一個相對提撥6%或勞工自體6%基本上已經經過20年了已經有開始許多多人想要倡議把它提高"},{"start":452.549,"end":470.542,"text":"那除了勞動部問題之外其實最關鍵的其實是在財政部為什麼因為這裡頭有稅差損的問題一個呢如果說假設以6%提高到8%的話以個人的部分的話大概可以增加到173億企業的部分大概增加到800"},{"start":472.924,"end":486.371,"text":"33億那以整個有效稅率來換算的話以企業大概是17%的話他的這個稅損的大概是150億那勞工的朋友的話大概有效稅率大概平均大概應該是大概3%左右但我已算5"},{"start":487.432,"end":508.855,"text":"大概稅損大概增加8億這種情況底下勞動部是不是應該去評估一下這樣的稅損是不是勞動部可以承受得了然後我們可以增加讓勞工呢有更多一個經濟安全保障然後呢減少國家的這個稅收的情況底下這可以讓整個勞工的福利可以提升有沒有可能 部長請說"},{"start":509.991,"end":534.423,"text":"我想委员这个部分我们会后是不是再跟劳动部再来做一个讨论以及他有没有要做一些提高到6%提高到8%以及未来对税收的相关的影响我们会跟劳动部再做进一步的了解你可以先跟本席讨论因为劳动部还没有提案本席有提案本席现在就就教于你因为本席的提案当中除了劳动部的因素之外就是财政部"},{"start":535.523,"end":558.84,"text":"財政部的部分有兩個面向一個是自提的部分一個是企業提撥的部分顯然企業提撥的稅差損是大概150億但是勞工的部分的稅差損不過是8億也就是說自提的部分其實可以先行事辦企業的部分主力相對比較大後行事辦你可以提供出來介意你可以分階段性的處理有沒有可能"},{"start":561.501,"end":587.677,"text":"我想这个部分我们会后再来跟委员请教你会后的部分我给你一个月的时间你评估一下好不好然后依照你这个评估的内容当中接下来我们跟劳动部讨论的时候会有所依据你们是提早准备最后一个问题我请教于您大家都非常关心因为我们想说在台美官报谈判的时候朝向FTA我们都一提到说我们要向美方争取先向免税的一个项目"},{"start":588.197,"end":595.673,"text":"那我問你啊我們跟人家爭取千項免稅那我問部長美方現在要求我們要爭取多少免稅"},{"start":598.224,"end":609.812,"text":"幾項 我問幾項而已這個部分因為涉及到他們相互還在簽相關的協議的文本內容既然是涉及我們跟他要求一千項可以講要求的可以講我們被要求的不能講簽署以後會向社會大眾報告你從昨天到現在都回答這句話都沒有邊跟為什麼我們跟他要求說有一千項我們被要求幾項不能講"},{"start":620.879,"end":632.844,"text":"你站在財政部長你要去面對這個問題我們當然知道是我們會面對從汽車關稅的部分大概多少我們至少要去面對這個問題我根本本性也不是問你說稅率要降到多少都不是我問一個比較具體的問題好了另外一個"},{"start":636.785,"end":654.335,"text":"這個台美之間啊這個重複科稅的問題啊就避免重複科稅的這個檢免法案已經在這個那個眾議院參過了接下來就經過這個參議院參議院通過以後就可以達成就完成這個效力了嘛 對不對就算財政部的一個政績嘛 對不對"},{"start":656.556,"end":683.854,"text":"参议院通过后那要因为他是修国内法第一阶段他修国内法然后经过川普总统签署以后我们双方那你有没有算出两边的税差损多少这个双方这个部分会要签个国际文书那至于税差的部分因为其实这双方都相互投资都可以相互适用那事实上税差不是主要的一个议题因为事实上相互投资是会促进双向的贸易以及经济的成长我觉得这个部分是更重要的"},{"start":684.795,"end":700.059,"text":"那一定會有避免重複課稅的部分嗎避免重複課稅還是會有數字上的問題數字上的問題牽扯到台商或美商之間他們減少稅損的問題當然是有數字的問題啊是有數字我們那只有初估而已初估 好不好可以吧好 謝謝好 謝謝郭國文委員接下來請羅明財委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"167265","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167265","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d2c040b8b92d91726c3e6453c4741ac4b6156b03e721490b728abf62da49b1b6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:32:00 - 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需要休養我們將心比心都可以認同可以請病假每年28天那但是呢"},{"start":163.72,"end":185.158,"text":"如果是重大疾病的話依照規定核給的病假、試假、休假、補假全部休完了以後長官可以核准延長病假其期間兩年內合併計算不得超過一年對於有身份保障的事務官在遇到重大疾病的時候給予這樣的保障我個人是認同的"},{"start":186.24,"end":211.117,"text":"但是這個規定你把它硬套到政務人員身上特別是院長級部長級的身上你就知道這件事情有多荒謬你要用公務人員請教規則那我第一個問題想要請教的是請問監察院院長的長官是誰請問監察院院長的長官是誰是哪一位長官"},{"start":212.318,"end":229.943,"text":"特別核准可以請延長病假兩年內合併不得超過一年這個長官存在嗎這個長官存在嗎如果這個長官存在真的要用這個請假規則的話請問這個長官就所何止是來欽德總統嗎還是因為請假的是院長因為是院長位高權重"},{"start":239.628,"end":264.875,"text":"下面的公務人員即使看了搖頭也沒有辦法也沒有辦法只能讓他照這個荒謬的規定這個荒謬的規定我上一次請監察院函附按照他們依照所謂的公務人員請假規則到底可以請假到什麼時候監察院給我的公文完全不敢回覆"},{"start":266.004,"end":290.34,"text":"完全不敢回覆這個具體的問題用抽象的文字想要遮掩很多殘酷的事實什麼叫做用抽象的文字要遮掩殘酷的事實依照監察院的函附抽象的文字我套用法規以及日曆算出來的我跟大家報告一下陳菊從2024年12月底開始請假"},{"start":293.877,"end":312.404,"text":"2025年有250個工作日依照監察院含附的內容陳菊院長每年可以請28天的病假7天的試假30天的休假我相信啊這個假期啊所有全國的勞工看了都非常的羨慕"},{"start":313.308,"end":338.78,"text":"也就是在250個工作天裡面他可以請完65天250個工作天裡面我講的是工作天啊我講的是工作天啊不是日曆日啊250個工作天他可以請65天的假日他請完65天以後再請延長病假"},{"start":339.949,"end":368.208,"text":"所以扣掉265扣掉65他只需要請185天的延長病假兩年內合併的延長病假請不可以超過一年所以到2026年也就是今年245個工作天他可以再請65天的假日再請65天的假日扣掉了以後他可以再請180天的延長病假"},{"start":369.127,"end":395.753,"text":"我跟大家報告他延長病假不用用滿他任期就借滿他任期就借滿那代表什麼意思呢代表按照我國現行的法制一個監察院院長沒有辦法在院長的職位上面履行他工作的職責可以一直請假一直請假請到到請假到他任期借滿為止都沒有關係"},{"start":397.918,"end":422.468,"text":"在我國目前的法治狀態下面是合法的我們是法律人依法論法是合法的但我相信全國的人民會想要問一個問題為什麼這樣會是合法的這是什麼法治狀態這是什麼落後的法治狀態搞到這麼離譜的事情竟然是合法的"},{"start":424.765,"end":444.679,"text":"這是中華民國走到2026年的法治水準嗎回到2012年考試院行政院所提出的政務人員法草案裡面規範的就很清楚因健康或其他原因難以執行職權者 拜託"},{"start":450.355,"end":478.233,"text":"這個職務就換這個職務就換有能力履行這個職務的人來做了這只是一個簡單的例子凸顯出來目前為什麼要推動要完成這個政務人員法我剛剛在動詞的時候啊除了推動我還加完成兩個字啊因為我希望這一屆的國會不要再只是推動了"},{"start":479.929,"end":501.954,"text":"推動了十幾年原地踏步一事無成造成了荒謬的法治狀態束手無策政務人員負政治責任跟一般文官的中立性質不同我相信"},{"start":503.291,"end":531.687,"text":"這是公民的ABC不需要多談但是即使是政務人員還是有一條紅線你沒有辦法跨過而那條紅線就是在政務人員法裡面要好好規範的事項即使是一個政務人員可以在他上班的時間在社群媒體上鼓吹無差別的對在野黨的立委發動大罷免嗎"},{"start":535.817,"end":562.555,"text":"這是在我國目前的民主法治下可以容許政務人員做的事嗎拿納稅人的錢在你的位置上期待你的是你負起責任把你的事情做好而不是拿納稅人的錢上班的時間在自己的辦公室"},{"start":565.897,"end":591.549,"text":"進行政治鬥爭這是台灣這一兩年可能我們過去從來沒有想像過荒腔走板的行徑走到2026年我希望這部法律案不要再拖下去了"},{"start":592.708,"end":613.748,"text":"不要再拖下去了能夠在這一屆的國會啊完成立法最後再次的感謝今天與會的學者專家波榮來立法院提供各位寶貴的意見各位寶貴的意見在立法院公報上面的登載都會成為接下來立法委員在修正法律的時候重要的參酌謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17232","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ead3a2b43aa665e40728dbefb2f530c7a7e692bdb9a1e47977eb6b4d5bec0d53165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"1.游被提名人盈隆-立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單，游盈隆為委員並為主任委員，胡博硯為委員並為副主任委員，黃文玲、李禮仲、蘇嘉宏、蘇子喬及陳宗義均為委員，請同意案。【1月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-28","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-28T08:36:47+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-28T11:22:00+08:00","duration":9913,"影片長度":"02:45:13","委員發言時間":"08:36:47 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麥玉珍 丁學忠委員三人列席官員 大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑暨相關人員內政部常務次長吳唐安暨相關人員中央全局委員會法務部外交部國家安全局國家通訊傳播委員會數位發展部交通部司法院監察院財團法人海峽交流基金會等機關代表暨相關人員主席王昭吉委員美會討論事項審查反滲透法修正草案暨時案討論事項合併詢答委員"},{"start":1675.712,"end":1701.867,"text":"沈博洋 王定宇 黃捷說明提案要旨大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑內政部常務次長吳唐安報告委員蘇巧慧等17人質詢分別由大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑及相關人員國家安全局第三處陳副處長法務部參事謝志明司法院刑事廳法官吳元耀內政部常務次長吳唐安中央選舉委員會法政處處長蔡京高數位發展部法制處副處長吳怡倫答覆說明"},{"start":1702.327,"end":1726.361,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員莊銳雄 林怡瑾 丁學忠 徐欣盈 沈發慧等五人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及位及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢請問各位委員 今天會議記錄有什麼錯誤與疑慮嗎沒有"},{"start":1732.871,"end":1748.001,"text":"議事錄確定我們繼續進行討論署行簽讀審查行政院涵送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單游盈隆為委員並為主任委員胡柏彥為委員並為副主任委員"},{"start":1748.901,"end":1767.209,"text":"黃文玲 李李仲 蘇嘉鴻 蘇紫橋及陳忠義 軍委委員請同意案依序分別審查由被提名人 迎龍胡被提名人 博焱黃被提名人 文玲李被提名人 李仲蘇被提名人 嘉鴻蘇被提名人 紫橋陳被提名人 忠義 宣讀完畢我們來介紹主席的委員跟行政機關列席的委員跟被提名人"},{"start":1786.826,"end":1807.007,"text":"我們先來第一位張志倫委員第二位劉錫廷委員現在進來我們的王鴻薇委員我們現在向正義秘書長張敦漢秘書長"},{"start":1811.314,"end":1816.475,"text":"中央選舉委員會主任委員被提名人游一龍副主任委員被提名人吳柏彥委員提名人比提名人黃文玲"},{"start":1834.541,"end":1842.286,"text":"委員比提名人李立忠委員比提名人蘇嘉鴻委員比提名人蘇志橋委員比提名人陳忠義主任必須謝美玲"},{"start":1863.717,"end":1874.106,"text":"我們行政院林署行政總署培訓考用處處長李花蘇你歡迎"},{"start":1888.137,"end":1895.403,"text":"立法院院會第11屆第4期第16次會議報告交付內政司法及法治兩個委員會審查中央委員會所提出的命令"},{"start":1910.723,"end":1914.604,"text":"兩委員會一位26級辦公廳會以前也已經完成本院各黨團隊被提名人的資格"},{"start":1925.309,"end":1952.296,"text":"事任性所提出的書面問題函請行政院轉致各備提名人經行政院函附各備提名人提出與相關的資料並以檢証於各黨團在案本案審查程序安排在28日、29日兩天一天"},{"start":1954.684,"end":1955.045,"text":"會議分配審查"},{"start":1961.484,"end":1986.661,"text":"本這個會議開始進行前行宣告以下事項先進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明及答詢依程序由行政院張秘書長及游盈隆先生分配說明後進行詢答"},{"start":1988.383,"end":2003.879,"text":"由榮榮先生撥分全部達成結束後 休訓10分鐘再進行提名人胡柏彥先生的署名與答詢程序與定管一樣 並釋放會議"},{"start":2010.325,"end":2033.473,"text":"會議進行的總統職項與程序分別進行比提名人黃文玲、李立中、蘇家鴻、蘇芝喬、陳宗義說明與答詢答詢的時間出席出席委員會六分鐘內席委員會四分鐘"},{"start":2038.835,"end":2044.402,"text":"本院的委員會議定期時間10點半一至本次會議沒有要處理臨時提案現在我們請行政委張秘書長進行說明"},{"start":2065.396,"end":2092.17,"text":"主席在場的各位委員各位先生女士媒體朋友大家早安今天立法院內政跟司法法制委員會聯席審查行政院所提名的七位中選會委員被提名人本人應邀這個列席報告宣感榮幸選舉罷免跟公民投票都是我國國民重要的參政權"},{"start":2093.479,"end":2118.513,"text":"也是憲法保障人民參與公共事務的基本權利台灣透過了一次次選舉罷免或者是公民投票逐步的深化我國的民主憲政為了貫徹憲法保障民主法治及人民參政的主旨總選會秉持超然中立 恪守中立的精神統籌辦理"},{"start":2120.814,"end":2144.737,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免及公民投票的事務持續鞏固公平公正公開的公共事務環境以確保國民意志的展現因此中選會運作是中華民國實現民主核心的機制以下僅就本次的提名作業做簡要的報告跟說明依照中選會組織法"},{"start":2146.496,"end":2174.398,"text":"第三條第一項規定中選會設置9到11個人其中一人為主任委員一人為副主任委員其他的委員7到9位那這次的提名也是依照中選會組織法來進行提名領選具有法證相關的專業經驗的公證人士來擔任委員中有同一個黨籍的不得超過委員總數的三分之一"},{"start":2176.906,"end":2202.011,"text":"那也跟大家報告跟說明依照中選會組織法的規定中選會除了主任委員跟副主任委員之外其餘經為兼職無給職那這次的提名也依照這樣的規定來進行跟辦理那麼第二個說明是中選會前主任委員李靖勇副主任委員陳昭健委員許惠峰 陳恩明 王韻如"},{"start":2203.277,"end":2218.411,"text":"徐亞芬等六人的任期已經在去年的11月3日屆滿另外委員蒙志成也因為個人的因素而提早請辭所以這一次行政院提名游英龍為委員並為主任委員"},{"start":2220.509,"end":2247.442,"text":"胡柏諺為副主任委員並為委員委員包括了黃文玲女士李李仲先生 蘇嘉鴻先生 蘇紫橋先生等六人那以上這六人的任期會依照相關的法令規定任期會到2029年的11月3日而且委員蒙志成的遺缺將由陳忠義接任任期會到明年的11月為止"},{"start":2249.471,"end":2272.93,"text":"那這次中選會的新任委員提名是依照中選會組織法第三條規定辦理滿足了三個法定的條件第一個滿足了中選會組法第三條第四項的規定提名了具有豐富專業學識或實務經驗的公正人士來進行第二個同一個黨籍的委員也不會超過三分之一在這次被提名人當中"},{"start":2274.324,"end":2302.163,"text":"僅有胡柏諺有時代力量的黨籍蘇嘉鴻教授有中國國民黨的黨籍那陳忠義前立委則是有民主進步黨的黨籍其他的四個人目前僅為無黨籍如果蒙大院通過所有的人事同意權後那麼加上目前現有的四位委員委員的有黨籍的同一黨籍的人數的比例不會超過法定的三分之一"},{"start":2303.339,"end":2324.114,"text":"那第三個經過這次提名作業的竊竭拒絕所有的七位被提名人均無中國戶籍也無外國戶籍或永久居留權也符合了相關的國籍的規範那以下也就這次七位被提名人的學經歷背景做簡單扼要的報告"},{"start":2326.991,"end":2355.059,"text":"那第一位是主任委員 並為委員游盈榮教授那大家對他很熟悉他是台灣民意基金會的董事長過去長期在學術界在東吳大學任教非常多年那在中央的行政經驗他不但擔任過過去行政研考會的副主任委員陸委會的特任副主任委員海基會的副董事長兼秘書長"},{"start":2356.874,"end":2382.131,"text":"也擔任過中選會的委員在政治學比較政治民意與投票行為政黨選舉等領域專業駐有專精那第二位是胡柏彥委員並為副主任委員胡柏彥教授現在是東吳大學法律系的教授專長是憲法行政法過去他也在不同的大學任教"},{"start":2383.598,"end":2410.681,"text":"也曾經擔任過許多中央部會的書院審議會或者是法規委員會的委員那他也曾經擔任過中選會書院委員會的委員對於中選會的業務也是非常的實務上也是非常的了解那第三位被提名人也是過去的資深的立委黃文林律師那黃文林律師的專長是法律及內政"},{"start":2412.284,"end":2437.106,"text":"曾經擔任過第八屆的立委也曾經擔任過多個仲裁協會的仲裁人在程序、主持、爭議處理方面有相當豐富的實務經驗第四位是李李仲教授李李仲教授是由中國國民黨所推薦的被提名人李教授現在是中華科技大學的專任教授"},{"start":2438.174,"end":2458.163,"text":"也是副校長專長是商業跟金融監理的法規公平法跟智慧財產權等多元的領域那他過去也曾經擔任過第七屆公平教育委員會的委員長期投入法學的研究兼具公共治理選務跟獨立機關的實務經驗"},{"start":2461.53,"end":2484.826,"text":"那第五位蘇嘉鴻教授也是中國國民黨所推薦的優秀的人選那蘇嘉鴻教授目前是福音科技大學的專任教授過去在中央他也曾經擔任過海委會國家海洋研究院海洋政策及文化研究中心的主任等職務現在也擔任許多地方政府"},{"start":2487.796,"end":2511.955,"text":"醫療爭議調解委員會跟醫事審議委員會的委員從中央到地方從理論到實務也具有豐富的經驗第六位是舒子喬教授那舒子喬教授是台灣民眾黨所推薦的被提名人那舒子喬教授是現任東吳大學政治系的教授專長是憲政體制選舉制度以及比較政治"},{"start":2514.367,"end":2542.916,"text":"長期研究我國的憲政制度跟選舉制度並著作等身有相當豐富的期刊跟論文那第七位被提名人是陳忠義前立委他目前是桃園市選委會的委員專長是法律曾經擔任升格之前的桃園縣的桃園市長也是立法院第五屆的立法委員資深立委"},{"start":2544.181,"end":2571.059,"text":"在地方不只有行政的經驗也擔任過長期的縣議員的職務具有豐富的中央跟地方的實務經驗相信也能夠為中選會無論是中央或者是地方的選舉事務能夠投注非常多的專業的貢獻那這次中選會的提名作業也感謝國民黨以及民眾黨"},{"start":2574.884,"end":2593.445,"text":"舉薦優秀的人才經過行政院審酌的考量秉持著韓納各黨推薦橫跨朝野背景兼具理論實務以及中央地方經驗這四個原則我們就相關的領域領選了七位"},{"start":2594.741,"end":2615.012,"text":"被提名人加上現有的四位中選會委員也都是學長巨優相信能夠為中選會籌辦選務注入專業全面的規劃跟運作思維持續深化中華民國台灣的民主法治體現主權在民希望"},{"start":2616.38,"end":2645.249,"text":"貴院所有的委員能夠理性審議予以支持 以上報告請各位委員先進指教 謝謝謝謝 感謝張秘書長的說明現在我們開始來進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明和答詢請被提名人游盈隆先生說明"},{"start":2659.629,"end":2684.209,"text":"王主席各位委員行政院張秘書長各位女士各位先生大家早安大家好我今天非常榮幸能夠以中選會主委被提名人的身份來國會的殿堂來接受各位的"},{"start":2686.331,"end":2715.252,"text":"提問不過一開始我沒有預期到說我還要做報告要做說明不過我簡單的講11月底我接受行政院的提名我是抱持著一個如臨深淵如履薄冰的心情接下這樣的一個提名我知道"},{"start":2717.011,"end":2743.566,"text":"中選會主委的工作是非常的艱鉅的中選會的工作不是常人所能夠理解但是中選會的工作關係到台灣民主的成敗所以承擔這樣的一個角色那是無比的沉重也無比的榮幸"},{"start":2747.267,"end":2751.749,"text":"我是懷抱理想跟使命感而來我希望為台灣民主做出貢獻在目前國內政局緊張政黨高度競爭的環境裡面中選會要如何"},{"start":2776.061,"end":2801.632,"text":"做到讓各黨都能滿意讓所有的候選人能滿意讓選民能夠滿意是一個非常艱鉅的挑戰但我相信如果我獲得大院的同意支持未來我一定會"},{"start":2804.282,"end":2831.329,"text":"堅持絕對的超然中立客觀公正並且專業的精神和能力全力以赴希望中選會一個健全的中選會能夠在大院的支持之下早日的出現在國人眼前讓我們"},{"start":2833.166,"end":2854.518,"text":"我們2026的大選能夠順利成功讓我們2028的大選能夠順利成功中選會是這樣的一個角色我在這裡非常誠摯的也謙卑的要向我們的國會報告並且也請求讓中選會"},{"start":2864.349,"end":2891.091,"text":"人事案早日通過 讓中選會早日上路為大家做事 謝謝大家謝謝 我們現在請登記第一位 牛西庭委員質詢謝謝主席 請備題名人游教授請游教授"},{"start":2899.758,"end":2917.487,"text":"好早安林委員早這個您大部分我們認識游教授都是在新聞媒體上因為這個台灣民意基金會的這個民意調查也算是赫赫有名長時間的滾動提供了政治圈非常多攻打手邊的一個素材那大家在"},{"start":2918.726,"end":2945.287,"text":"這個看到游盈隆教授被列為中選會主委的提名人的時候大家當然是有一些意外也有很多問題想要請教那麼今天很高興有這樣一個機緣可以跟教授來做一下面對面的討論我問的第一個問題就是你應該如何確保啊這個如果有幸成為中選會主委啊因為你平常也評論非常多的一個政治的事務也做民意調查在基金會裡面有職務你怎麼樣確保這之間的分際可以非常的清楚你打算做哪一些的決定"},{"start":2948.396,"end":2973.935,"text":"謝謝牛委員我已經有了相當的覺悟擔任中選會主委也有一定程度的犧牲是要付出的我可能失去了自由我的意思是說失去評論台灣公開評論台灣政治的自由作為一個政治學者"},{"start":2975.23,"end":3004.095,"text":"我作為一個關心台灣的知識分子那樣的一個犧牲是重大的但是為了更高的目的為了更重大的目標我覺得我必須做這樣的歌聲一語雄長不能得見好 所以意思就是說不會再發表相關的評論民意調查等等也會離開基金會的職務是這樣的意思嗎如果大院能夠"},{"start":3005.266,"end":3026.884,"text":"通過中選會主委的人事同意權任命我將辭去台灣民意教育基金會的董事長也辭去董事我採取比法律更嚴格的標準做自我的要求非常好 謝謝"},{"start":3028.294,"end":3056.467,"text":"那麼我們再針對幾個常常我們在中選會這個平台做討論的題目跟教授做一下意見的交換這個目前立法院有很多的委員提案修正公職人員選罷法或者是不在籍投票的各種相關的一個草案那也有這個這個大家的版本不一樣但大部分的版本基本上都是限於所謂的境內移轉投票有關不在籍投票的部分換言之就是透過登記的部分我不見得要舟車勞頓的返鄉"},{"start":3057.967,"end":3086.897,"text":"我可以在就近的投票所去投別的選舉這是在自己戶籍所在地的這樣子的一個投票那我想請問一下被提名人立法院如果修正相關的法令新增了不在籍投票相關的制度限於國內移轉投票請問您會不會忠實的執行立法院通過的法律當然如果立法院通過了不在籍投票中選會只有依法行政全力以赴好 謝謝"},{"start":3088.103,"end":3114.416,"text":"那您覺得在您如果你有機會領導中選會啦您可能需要多少時間來做好境內移轉投票制度的相關準備工作我不知道這項立法到時候在立法院會如何通過整個制度的內容到底是怎麼樣我不清楚但是我也要就最近我從我們中選會"},{"start":3117.639,"end":3139.077,"text":"同仁那里所得到的许多的资讯我深深的感觉不在即投票是世界的潮流也是台湾许多人直觉上对的一个努力方向但是"},{"start":3140.732,"end":3170.098,"text":"當我們在講世界各國很多都採取了這個不在籍投票的時候台灣沒有感覺到自己落後了自己很慚愧我覺得那種心情是可以理解的我肯定那是一個進步的思維可是我們也不能夠脫離現實如果回到我們自己的國家的選舉制度"},{"start":3172.025,"end":3185.677,"text":"我們深入去看很快就會發現不在籍投票牽涉的是非常複雜的選舉的工程尤其是九合一尤其是在九合一地方選舉裡面"},{"start":3199.188,"end":3220.356,"text":"實施不在籍投票就現階段來講肯定是一個災難中選會已經提出來如果在九合一地方選舉辦不在籍投票將會造成將近九千種不同的選票在極端的狀況下所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":3224.028,"end":3245.234,"text":"很重要的一點我們喜歡看天邊的彩霞但不要踩壞了眼前的一大這個玫瑰讓我們的這個傲視世界的台灣選舉然後蒙城教授這個那到底是要執行還是不執行花多少時間準備"},{"start":3246.351,"end":3262.104,"text":"所以我剛剛講原則上我剛剛已經講但是願意執行但需要很多時間準備實際上要通過什麼樣的制度內容目前您知道嗎還是您可以現在告訴我我可以做回應當然這個有很多不同的版本"},{"start":3262.684,"end":3284.121,"text":"這個如果你有幸擔任中學會主委相信還有很多討論的機會但因為時間有限我們還有問最後幾個問題因為我們的執政黨曾經表示如果施行不在籍投票會導致選民投票的信任消失會有作票的風險也曾經說會有讓中國大陸借選更加容易即便我們剛剛講的現在的不在籍投票的版本是國內的移轉投票"},{"start":3285.041,"end":3308.983,"text":"這樣子的一個說法你認同嗎在你領導下的中選會你如何去避免這個選務公信力下降的問題你該如何把這個東西帶領好你真的覺得不再投票會有作票的風險嗎請你簡要回答就好選務行政的公信力是非常重要甚至是最重要的讓選民相信選舉的結果是公正的那但是呢"},{"start":3311.833,"end":3333.844,"text":"實施不在籍投票最大的困難是來自於執行面在可行性我覺得境外的影響等等可能是比較其次比較其次還是在於選務整個在操辦選務過程中遇到的一些新政的困難那你有沒有信心可以逐步的解決我不要講一步到位"},{"start":3335.611,"end":3362.568,"text":"如果立法院提了一個中選會沒辦法執行的一個方案壓垮中選會我也沒辦法在這邊跟您保證說一定就能夠做得好如果這樣的話是不負責任的好 謝謝教授 因為今天時間有限不過我建議你 後面還有很多委員要就教就直接回答這樣子就好了 好吧好 這給你一點點提醒跟建議 祝你今天順利 謝謝"},{"start":3366.075,"end":3371.099,"text":"謝謝我們感謝牛西廷委員質詢 我們請張志倫委員好謝謝主席各位媒體各位官員大家早有請這個中選會主委提名人游盈榮教授請游教授"},{"start":3393.646,"end":3412.842,"text":"好 教授好首先恭喜你成為中選會被提名人也預祝你可以順利當選那教授容我稱你教授那教授過去這個本席對你的了解不管是從這個電視上或是一些民調當中去了解您"},{"start":3413.542,"end":3441.572,"text":"那當然您對這個在去年的時候針對於這個大罷免的亂象你也公開提出這個批評甚至非常誠實的說這是對民主的傷害您的說法是執政黨就是參與發動這場全面性無差別的大罷免企圖奪回國會主導權不僅是台灣民主主流的民意的反對也會被其他民主國家不能接受"},{"start":3442.031,"end":3462.637,"text":"所以這個意思就是說大罷免不是民主之光反而是台灣民主之恥這是您說的嗎是 我講過是 好 那本席在這邊必須要稱讚您就是你願意講真話的風骨本席予以高度肯定那這邊我本席也要特別講在台灣這個民主史上不管是選舉"},{"start":3463.997,"end":3487.444,"text":"罷免或是公投在選舉制度上其實是蠻完整的一個制度可是在罷免跟公投上過去產生出了很多問題尤其在罷免上就您的這個評論來講就是執政黨其實利用了罷免裡面很多的漏洞來去做一些這個政黨政治的一些對決跟一些操作所以本席想要這邊特別跟你請教尤其是在罷免"},{"start":3489.105,"end":3507.984,"text":"這個每一個民意代表當選一年內可不可以執行罷免的這個連署的時候其實這個法是無明文規定的可是會造成這個社會上的一個對立所以本席必須要說選舉投票是一個民主的行為可是罷免它是一個"},{"start":3509.164,"end":3537.713,"text":"政黨的一個對決而且造成社會分裂而且是長期會造成一個情熱的問題投票你投誰大家非常清楚嘛而且這是秘密投票大家不知道你投誰可是罷免如果你沒有去連署的話會造成無盡的情熱啊而且說你沒有罷免我遇到很多民眾跟我講說他就是不想要連署罷免可是被民眾這樣子要求說一定要罷免要去簽連署還有一些攤販跟我講說他如果沒有去連署罷免他會人家會跟他恐嚇說"},{"start":3538.613,"end":3560.431,"text":"你這樣子我的生意讓你做不下去喔所以我覺得在當選一年內去做這樣子的這個罷免的連署喔其實就是現在整個制度上的一個漏洞那我看到你的報告裡面也有想說你未來會倡議說不能去進行這樣子一個動作請問你有沒有一些具體的做法或是未來可能會跟內政部去討論這樣的事情以目前的制度來看這個對於"},{"start":3568.07,"end":3594.737,"text":"罷免的規範是在選完一年之後也就是說當選一年之後才能夠進行罷免但是法律沒有禁止社會對就是說有相關的罷免的言論主委你同意這樣子這個不說言論是大家言論自由可是進行連署的一個方式您自己本身也是不贊成的對吧"},{"start":3594.977,"end":3616.751,"text":"我不贊成連署因為可以倡議那是言論自由那但是如果這個進行連署的話那就會對於我們想培養的這樣的一個成熟的政治文化是有傷的"},{"start":3617.959,"end":3635.172,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝教授教授你講的我覺得其實就是我們的心聲為什麼因為其實當時這個連署的一個過程造成社會分裂而且很多民眾其實被情的恐嚇這樣子的狀況其實非常的不好那也希望說未來你有機會擔任主委的時候也要多倡議這樣的行為變成說謝謝"},{"start":3637.854,"end":3656.091,"text":"那第二個我相信很多委員今天都有在跟你請教就是有關於不在籍投票的一個部分那不在籍投票其實目前其實我覺得這是非常重要因為現在就針對很多在投票所的工作人員他們其實有時候他們現在也是可以不在籍投票是嗎"},{"start":3657.892,"end":3675.62,"text":"所以現在的行之有年就是很多的工作人員其實在投票所的時候他們是可以進行不在籍投票所以本席有看到你的報告裡面寫說未來可行不在籍投票的順序第一個是移轉投票針對限定境內或身份特殊或者是戶籍地"},{"start":3676.44,"end":3697.195,"text":"在外的一些選務人員未來可以來考慮或者是在特定身份的不在意投票比如說這個援助民族或是服勤的警消人員等等我覺得這兩點我覺得非常重要因為第一個很多的公務人員或是警消人員其實他們的工作地跟戶籍地是不一樣的地方所以"},{"start":3698.115,"end":3725.265,"text":"這個部分本席也支持非常強烈支持您這樣的主張那是不是有一個期程說如果是不是可以先通過比如說我們一般的這個公務人員或是警消人員他們可以先來辦理這樣子的一個不在籍投票是不是可以請您回答是根據中選會最近的這個研究跟思考中選會是建議"},{"start":3726.646,"end":3746.421,"text":"不在籍投票先从单一的公民投票开始实施然后逐步的累积经验之后进一步推广到各项选举所以就这个角度来讲我觉得这样的一个态度是神圣的"},{"start":3746.969,"end":3766.956,"text":"是負責任的所以未來是不是能夠什麼時候哪一年能夠有一次公民投票然後在公民投票裡面試行不在籍投票然後我覺得那會是一個很重要的開始"},{"start":3767.486,"end":3790.026,"text":"好 了解 就是先從公民投票先起然後之後可能再就不特定人再來就是可能有進步有機會可以全面好 那我也希望主委這邊加速來實行那最後一個問題其實 針對其實當時我們這個立法院其實有決議一個這個公投的一個主題叫做反廢死"},{"start":3791.067,"end":3813.73,"text":"公投那當時是被中選會來就是否定這樣子的這個題目那因為當時這個議題有對很多民眾來講是非常的重要因為當時大家看到很多的這個殺人事件覺得說這樣現在的現在的民進黨政府就是不願意對現在比如說一些的案件去這個判死刑所以當然民眾覺得很"},{"start":3814.591,"end":3842.329,"text":"不能接受所以當時立法院才有這樣子的一個提案然後沒有想到被當時的中選會給否決那我想要請問主委當然你們否定也沒有當時你們有自己的理由啦那是不是針對這些民眾所關心的重要的這個公投的議題未來是不是有一些可以大家可以溝通的機會而不是說中選會直接把立法院提出的這些公投的主題直接給把它否定掉是 這是一個很複雜的問題我覺得"},{"start":3845.164,"end":3872.537,"text":"未來應該要多做溝通我覺得會比較好否則這裡面牽扯到太多複雜的問題沒有溝通的話引起強烈反彈對社會也不好好 謝謝教授聽到非常開心有機會第一次跟你這樣子面對面的質詢也期待你可以未來有機會可以當我們中選會的主委謝謝你 謝謝"},{"start":3878.535,"end":3899.786,"text":"謝謝我們感謝張志榮委員質詢我們家張宏祿委員我請我們的游主委加油教授"},{"start":3908.713,"end":3922.902,"text":"首先質詢前還是要稱老師好啦好 張委員好游教授是我大學的老師其實我很多的這個"},{"start":3926.298,"end":3946.306,"text":"這個政治學的東西都是游教授教導我的所以今天這樣問我是有點尷尬但是還是要問我想請問一下很多的委員也都有在關切這個不在即投票"},{"start":3947.066,"end":3967.352,"text":"但不在一起投票其實分了很多種大家現在一直在講一直在講其實慢慢的好像聚焦在移轉投票台灣現在大家一直慢慢聚焦在移轉投票其實我們中選會辦的就是選政的工作我們的選務的工作其實都是地方選委會在第一線在辦"},{"start":3968.892,"end":3992.427,"text":"那選政的工作我們就是說我想要請教游教授就是說其實台灣現在已經有部分的移轉投票我們投開票所的工作人員就有移轉投票那如果貿然的"},{"start":3994.111,"end":4020.493,"text":"要大規模的這個移轉投票我個人 我一個很擔心的問題我想不出解方也沒有任何人可以提出任何解方未來如果移轉投票變成是選政的一個改變的話我可不可以指定某些人去某個投開票所我去那邊投票跟開票"},{"start":4021.983,"end":4033.192,"text":"會不會有這種可能發生要看選區吧要看選區如果我為什麼要這樣講會變成買票"},{"start":4039.68,"end":4063.488,"text":"買票的人 我要求你收了我的錢你去特定的投開票所投票我買幾票 你沒有開出來幾票你就是給我跑票未來會發生這種情況如果發生這種情況我不知道各位被提名人你們有沒有解方"},{"start":4065.229,"end":4085.023,"text":"我相信目前都沒有解方啦我不知道教授您的看法我這樣講好了不再急投票我剛剛說的是世界的潮流民主國家採行不再急投票非常多那我們台灣在這方面其實已經落後很久了"},{"start":4091.98,"end":4120.609,"text":"所以要迎頭趕上我覺得在道理上是說得過去的不在即投票你讓許多無法返鄉的人去在他居住地投票這說起來社會上普遍也是會贊成的但是我也同意張委員剛剛所說的這可能會產生很多的問題包括你說的買票"},{"start":4122.754,"end":4140.047,"text":"這是因為我們台灣從來沒有實施過不在籍投票所以我們不知道會碰到什麼情況所以在這樣的情況底下事先當然應該做好非常周全的研究調查"},{"start":4142.133,"end":4167.047,"text":"然後考量各種因素然後再來進行我覺得目前中選會所提出的這樣的一個解決方式我覺得是可行的就是說我們要循序漸進不是一步到位我們一開始就在九合一選舉裡面全面性的弄不在即投票這個是太"},{"start":4169.86,"end":4192.07,"text":"太大膽而且太冒險的作為報復平和不足為訓是不是可以未來從公民投票開始先從那裡開始實施然後逐步的累積經驗然後解決了"},{"start":4193.513,"end":4205.585,"text":"我們社會或者是很多人們的疑慮我覺得這樣子分階段一步一步的走會是比較好的做法我也是這麼認為我覺得我們先從公投先對視"},{"start":4210.39,"end":4228.489,"text":"對勢來移轉投票 為什麼呢我也覺得這個不再急投票很多的國家都這樣做那台灣要不要跟著做我覺得這是一個很崇高的理想我也不反對但台灣有特殊的買票文化"},{"start":4229.471,"end":4248.428,"text":"美國會買票嗎不會吧對不對但台灣這個買票文化我們從報紙上就看得非常的清楚到處都有在買票幾十年來都是這樣那如果我們對人的選舉也實施移轉投票"},{"start":4250.117,"end":4272.243,"text":"我們的對岸中國我跟你講透過大規模的買票這個是對台灣一個非常嚴重的一個災難所以我個人我是認為對全國性的公投事情我們可以先來做做看為什麼我要這樣我必須再說我辦過選舉我是"},{"start":4275.958,"end":4294.054,"text":"縣選委會的總幹事我當了四年從村里長的選舉到總統的選舉我都親自辦過我跟你講 選務的複雜程度啊超乎大家的想像我們連一張選票連那個有汙損或印得不好"},{"start":4295.563,"end":4315.906,"text":"我們要一張一張選票這樣去看從頭到尾看到尾那個每個人壓力有多大如果你要移轉投票我跟你講問題太多了我要光說一個你連投票通知單 你選舉公報他要移轉去那裡 要誰去送到時候他說我沒有收到"},{"start":4317.217,"end":4338.15,"text":"這個有很多技術性的問題所以我必須要說移轉投票不是不行但不能照進照進會把台灣馬上一次垮掉如果一次選舉的不公平大家以後對選委會這個公信力就不在我常講一句選委會"},{"start":4340.034,"end":4356.856,"text":"如果你要辦選舉我多給你人多給你錢很多技術性是可以克服的但公信力是最重要的一件事選務公信力三個字是最重要的所以我還是覺得主委教授"},{"start":4358.459,"end":4375.749,"text":"如果你的看法也是一樣就是從事情先來我覺得應該是先朝這個方向不可以一次太躁進不知道教授的看法我完全同意你的看法我覺得這樣做對台灣是比較好的好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張宏祿委員接受我們請黃姐的委員"},{"start":4395.336,"end":4399.985,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請游盈隆被提名人加油教授"},{"start":4408.376,"end":4428.723,"text":"好黃委員好是好 邱董事長先跟您請教這個不在即投票其實您剛剛已經有提到一個重點就是說不在即投票雖然世界各地有很多國家在施行但是我們不一定要這樣冒進而且如果直接用九合一大選來貿然的進行的話會是一場災難"},{"start":4430.143,"end":4445.269,"text":"這是您剛剛的論調那我在這邊也想要附和這個論點因為其實大家也知道說選舉的公信力是最重要的那選舉如果我們九合一大選直接開始施行不在籍投票的話您剛剛是說會增加9000種選票是嗎就選票的種類來講是將近9000種"},{"start":4452.89,"end":4481.663,"text":"是的這就是一個非常重大的技術性的問題所以我在這邊想請教的是你們有沒有先算過如果九合一大選只要直接使用不在籍投票會要增加幾倍的經費幾倍的人力多少個投開票所因為我還沒有上任我只是努力的去收集相關的訊息我不知道中選會是不是已經評估出來我目前手邊沒有這樣的資訊"},{"start":4482.813,"end":4508.899,"text":"好那我在這邊先提供一些資訊喔在2021年內政部其實有大概統計過就是說如果這一些就學就業沒有涉戶籍那可能會因為不在籍投票而可能可以投票的人大概第一名是在雙北大概就有37.4萬人那第二名會在台中有26.5萬人第三名是桃園有26萬人第四名是台北有18.5萬人"},{"start":4510.479,"end":4532.57,"text":"那如果這些人通通來申請這個不在籍投票大概就是會增加大概百萬人以上那這個是2021年的數字那台北市的選委會當時也有出來說光是這個投開票所可能就要增加三倍以上那如果現在年底就要來做這件事情的話您覺得可行嗎您就一個選務機關的考量來說選籍"},{"start":4538.315,"end":4559.823,"text":"2026地方選舉是11月28號舉行今天正好1月28號 就是10個月左右我覺得直覺上是不可行的事實上最近中選會也曾經行文給各地方的選舉委員會"},{"start":4562.025,"end":4582.059,"text":"各地方選舉委員會也都回報關於不在籍投票地方的態度沒有一個選委會是同意在這一次採行不在籍投票的所以地方事實上也是挫雷彈"},{"start":4583.815,"end":4613.515,"text":"是嗎因為就我剛剛說的光是台北就說要增加三倍了更不用說其他像是新北台中這一些可能不在籍的人口有大概三四十萬人的這一些選區喔那所以我覺得這當然是一個很大的技術性的挑戰但是話說回來剛剛其實有一句話我其實沒有很認同是剛剛這個有董事長說我們台灣沒有實施不在籍投票跟國際上相比來說是落後的"},{"start":4614.255,"end":4642.064,"text":"那我必須要說其他的國家跟台灣的情況大大的不同啊你不能拿台灣的情況跟世界各地來比啊請問其他國家有中共借選嗎有一些想要試圖來破壞我們台灣民主的這些境外勢力嗎沒有嘛那再來其他的國家有像台灣這樣經歷過這些什麼中立事件等等買票做票的過去選舉舞弊的歷史嗎"},{"start":4642.924,"end":4663.144,"text":"也沒有嘛所以台灣的過去民主的歷史是非常艱辛的我們是這樣一步一步大家靠著人民的信任人民的爭取那我相信游董事長過去也是經過這些民主的事件努力撐起台灣的民主的所以一直拿國外來跟台灣比較我覺得非常的不公平"},{"start":4663.664,"end":4677.66,"text":"那台灣現在需要的是一個非常可信穩定而且有這個選舉公正性的民主制度所以任何的變革我認為都必須要在非常的可信而且公正的基礎上來進行選務的變革沒有不行"},{"start":4680.683,"end":4706.652,"text":"但是前提非常非常的重要因為台灣的民主很辛苦我們是這樣撐起來的所以在這邊還是拜託我們這個游董事長如果要回答說不再投票是國際的趨勢的時候拜託想想台灣自己特殊的歷史拜託想想台灣過去是怎麼走過來的所以不要一味的說要跟國際上來比較這真的不是一朝一夕可以做到的"},{"start":4706.952,"end":4720.846,"text":"那最後會有一點時間我跟您請教這個公投綁大選因為過去有董事長一直都是支持公投綁大選的所以在這邊想請教那如果您未來上任之後您還是支持公投綁大選嗎"},{"start":4722.332,"end":4740.66,"text":"我當然支持公投綁大憲而且也沒有不支持的空間因為法律已經修正了所以我在這邊就要請教的是沒錯因為這個藍白還是強行的又再次通過了嘛那我要請教的是那您要怎麼務實的解決過去2018發生的邊開票邊投票的問題開票到半夜三點的問題以及這些因為人綁事而造成這個沒有辦法好好的討論公投議題"},{"start":4751.844,"end":4778.079,"text":"以上這些問題直接民主是民進黨的核心價值我過去二十幾年來當我是一個民進黨黨員的時候我實際的參與相關的事務無數的民主前輩為了能夠實現公投犧牲奉獻他們的青春生命自由"},{"start":4779.409,"end":4801.982,"text":"所以公投是一個民進黨的核心價值是所有的民主國家應該要追求的是的 我們都認同我們也非常支持公投制度所以我在這邊跟您請教的是如何防範重演2018邊開票邊投票以及開票到半夜三點以及這些可能會影響選舉結果的可能的情況再度出現"},{"start":4803.571,"end":4831.354,"text":"2018年是一個噩夢而且這個噩夢的形成有一些條件支持其中一個那您如何預防未來不會再重演呢這是一個選務機關最重要的工作我可以說明一下嗎2018那一次有十項公投這十項公投選委會公告之後一個多月而已就要投票"},{"start":4832.614,"end":4852.905,"text":"所以造成整個秩序大亂 這是其中一個所以這一次 經過這幾年來朝野的共同體認之後修法所以將公告之後一個月就投票 改成三個月這是一個很重要的改變第二個"},{"start":4854.778,"end":4877.605,"text":"以前辦理那麼龐大的選務一半法律規定一半是要軍公教人員現在也修正成三分之一只需要三分之一所以我在這邊希望您可以承諾既然公投綁大選是您的立場也是您的責任那未來希望你可以承諾在你的任內絕對不會再發生2018的噩夢我們盡力而為這個要請你保證謝謝"},{"start":4883.663,"end":4898.925,"text":"好 謝謝備題名人 謝謝黃建委員好 接下來有請王美惠委員主席男嘉游教授有請備題名人 謝謝"},{"start":4905.129,"end":4917.502,"text":"王委員好你好在這幾天的過程當中我們有看到你的履歷剛才你說到你人家告訴你要做檔門這個節目的時候也有一邊高興"},{"start":4925.197,"end":4947.497,"text":"也有一邊為了理想而走因為在這個過程當中我們的選舉委員會中選會是要有中立的在剛才本席所聽的好歡樂的就是覺得大家都想你長久以來是在民意教育基金會裡面擔任當事長"},{"start":4950.834,"end":4955.083,"text":"剛才有很多委員請教說你可以當時時你說你如果"},{"start":4962.05,"end":4975.673,"text":"這個人事案過 過得馬上死因為我覺得好的理想雖然是夢死 有的人也說你每天都在批評民進黨那是怎麼來做這個因為我覺得有擔當的執政黨裡面"},{"start":4987.495,"end":5010.684,"text":"應該無論他是我什麼人 他是北平什麼人今天我們要做政府單位是看他的認知所以在這裡我保證 我在這裡也是國民黨也是我們的朋友任何一黨都是我們的朋友為了理想 為了建設"},{"start":5012.125,"end":5018.711,"text":"我們都要做法表這是最好的 如果不做朋友 我們也沒辦法不可能說法表當中 你的總選委跟你不共同 不一樣的想法 你就不採納他的意見跟他的想法 大家討論之後 才可以"},{"start":5036.987,"end":5047.465,"text":"有好好的問題出來所以在這個過程當中最重要最重要在那裡大家差不多都說不再舉投票高雄你有說"},{"start":5050.014,"end":5055.615,"text":"可以為公道開始但是在這個過程中你剛才有回答過跟我們是怎麼理會一般人會亂吵吵會這麼多人會開票的時候又有人又要投票因為這種我相信在你的代言之下以後可能不會再來發生也不是可能而已一定不會再來發生"},{"start":5077.742,"end":5092.223,"text":"在不在一起投票的時候有很多人歡樂的就是像我們的孫悟寧原譬如他在黨區做孫悟寧原像我自己來說"},{"start":5094.005,"end":5106.135,"text":"他在當局的補考在當局的 但是他算不領完譬如是在第一樓的票箱第一樓的票箱不是他應該到的地方 因為他有申請嘛但是在這個過程裡面 你覺得他最高興的就是議員都一樣"},{"start":5119.859,"end":5128.343,"text":"市長都一樣縣和里長不一樣他這張票如果沒投出來是人家縣的里長還是他沒投里長大家都知道所以告訴你"},{"start":5136.208,"end":5163.467,"text":"在這裡面我就是說我們教育也好 全國也好我們今天是要講全國的 但是我是批論這個情形給你聽因為我們中華民國的台灣的選舉是大家最近都認為最好的雖然是很古早 但是改進到有夠好的因為我們那些黨議會"},{"start":5165.288,"end":5175.031,"text":"就是我們有一個派出兵在派出兵當中有時候會應用到選舉因為我常常說好的人才認真發表的民意代表我們一定鼓勵他當選但是在這個過程當中不再是投票有時候會去應用到選舉的結果"},{"start":5192.675,"end":5198.517,"text":"所以在這要問教授不再審投票本身跟你說因為有時候選票票數也很多也有現在都回到選票票數也有但是在選票票數你如果在本層第三張很多選票票的人在那裡大他不覺得什麼他如果兇勇去申請一個"},{"start":5219.742,"end":5225.848,"text":"我自己人都沒有在那裡的票檔我今天的票投出來這樣才算閉路投票啦告訴你來會談我所有擔心的事情我們大家來做參考因為未來這可能"},{"start":5241.321,"end":5260.808,"text":"也會逐一去改善來翁委員所擔心的一個秘密投票可能破功出問題這確實是一個問題要去注意另外就是說你一開始的計較說我批評民進黨很多我在這裡向翁委員報告"},{"start":5268.907,"end":5274.112,"text":"我都是九十輪輸 沒特別去批評民進黨我也是批評共產黨 對啦我也是批評共民黨 高師傅我現在你可能 國會有我的意思高師傅我現在是說以我民進黨的 有人說跟你們去提名這一點點要批評你"},{"start":5288.886,"end":5291.388,"text":"我來說民進黨會出的任財不分什麼 不可以說跟他批評我們說我們不好我們就不體面他啊 因為他有他的專財嘛我剛才是說這樣 因為我認為很多人都說過的 欠費到買廢人"},{"start":5313.084,"end":5315.006,"text":"所以我要跟你說的就是有這個生活我相信你也聽到了你說的說 你說的事實但是有的人覺得說有需要"},{"start":5327.723,"end":5332.33,"text":"這樣做嘛這時候我覺得說要讓這個國家愛好像你這個領袖一定很讚的啦我這時候要問你不再只投票你要怎麼去改善本縣兩個"},{"start":5345.047,"end":5347.41,"text":"會擔憂啦 憂及濫捕人如果去到台北 我再跟你說有兩個地方有很多嫁給人 那都沒差那挑剔憂心裡 我才剛才還說如果派出兵"},{"start":5359.977,"end":5365.02,"text":"我們的生活他有辦法用另外一個生活這個票房跟你們的小家庭你們兩個阿嬤去住而已這要怎麼處理這才是最重要的啦跟我是來講"},{"start":5375.93,"end":5377.872,"text":"前幾天我是想問是怎麼邀請你來 因為你有你的專長我認為批評不是壞的 批評可以讓一個人改變他的生活可以做得更好"},{"start":5395.288,"end":5398.891,"text":"這是在我都覺得很關鍵的像我 我有時候也會覺得說我們做得不好應該要怎麼做才對啦來謝謝黃委員的指教 全份了解這個不在即投票 我剛才也已經跟大家報告在這裡再說一次就是說"},{"start":5419.181,"end":5436.827,"text":"不在即投票是一個很複雜的事情不是說發作就去做那是會造成很大的問題像這災難所以要循序漸進中商會有提出一個完整的草案給鄉長"},{"start":5438.207,"end":5459.941,"text":"行政議也通過 交給立法院所以是不是可以用風雄來努力累積經驗來盡量檢討它可能造成的問題包括翁議員你所說的 閉閉投票這種很重要的事情對 剛才我還有兩三個問題我想我這幾天的時間也夠了待會我們再來探討 希望"},{"start":5466.032,"end":5483.496,"text":"我們可以做得更好因為我的想法就是不管你是來自在座的也有很多特等都提出的人才所以我們應該是樂觀青春可以讓中選會加入去做更好的事情不是在這裡說分什麼黨的 怎樣怎樣"},{"start":5490.501,"end":5503.186,"text":"這樣是不應該的 如果要問什麼東西在座的都不可能今天來到這裡 以上謝謝王美惠委員 那要提名人請回交接一下我們這裡陳佩儀委員之行"},{"start":5520.031,"end":5549.723,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請貝提銘仁貝提銘仁好董事長早安我剛剛坐在現場聽了非常多的委員跟您請教了關於不再急投票你的立場非常的清楚就是不再急投票如果貿然實施會是一個大災難那我們就接下來看大家都沒有想到的一個問題我覺得非常的可怕"},{"start":5550.182,"end":5568.566,"text":"不確定董事長你有沒有注意到在去年11月我們立法院在藍白惡意強力主導之下通過了公投綁大選而且他說投票案公告成立後一到六個月就要舉行公投這個是針對人民的部分"},{"start":5569.006,"end":5590.619,"text":"可是呢公投法又有規定董事長他說如果是總統交付或是立法院或是行政院提案的特殊公投案不適用相關的頻率跟日期的規定就是沒有一定要兩年才能辦一次所以我可不可以假設一個情況請中選會想一想也請董事長你考慮一下怎麼回答第一個"},{"start":5591.139,"end":5617.14,"text":"假設今天真的有立法院藍白黨團惡意再提出一個在今年年底大選以前就來提出一個立法院本身提出的公投案然後逼你們中選會因為剛剛主委你一直被提名人你一直說你支持公投綁大選那我就看年底選舉的時候只要立法院藍白黨團對中選會提出相關的公投案不管是什麼主題"},{"start":5618.701,"end":5640.063,"text":"那你們就要處理喔可是你剛剛跟我說你支持公投綁大選這是第一個情況那年底就會有九合一大選加上公投綁大選這是第一個困境第二個困境假設我在想像一現在網路上有非常多人在帶風向跟有相關於情討論相關幕僚可不可以讓我問完讓我問完因為第二個問題比較難"},{"start":5642.23,"end":5656.933,"text":"好 第二個問題第二個問題就是假設有人他發起一個運動叫做我假設年底真的有兩種票可以投一個是公投票一個是九合一大選票可是我只申請移轉不再期投票部分我只申請公投"},{"start":5657.834,"end":5679.416,"text":"的部分可是我不在我那個九合一大選我還是繼續在我的原戶口地方投然後呢我就開始在網路上製造一個輿論叫做是你們中選會為難我你害我只能放棄某一種選票因為可能我一個票在台北一個票在花蓮可是假設我當天又沒有辦法兩地趕著投票那他不去問他自己為什麼要操作這種行為"},{"start":5680.037,"end":5706.11,"text":"他就會問中選會假設您真的當選主委之後這絕對會是一個難題請不要說我可能過度惡意的想像我必須說現在的台灣社會確實有非常多人是刻意要製造混亂製造國內的不團結甚至在這種看起來像民生事務上給相關行政機關你們造成困難就算中選會是一個獨立機構請問被候選人被提名人你怎麼看 謝謝"},{"start":5707.851,"end":5734.902,"text":"首先關於公投綁大選的大是大非的問題他不是大是大非不好意思董事長我認為他是一個相關配套因為辛苦的是我們基層的選務人員就像您剛剛一開始有說他會動到非常非常多選票的規劃從2004年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選也都很順利的舉行了"},{"start":5736.858,"end":5760.65,"text":"2008年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選國民黨相對也提出兩個四個案也順利辦完了公投綁大選今天碰到的問題是2018的那一場災難因為那一場災難所以大家想說怎麼樣避免災難重現"},{"start":5762.079,"end":5790.738,"text":"我剛剛跟大家報告說 其中2018年為什麼是獨特的我也希望它是獨特的 不會再發生了那是因為它件數這麼多 十個然後又是在中選會公告一個月多一點的時間馬上進行投票 所以整個選務大亂所以在這種情況底下 我覺得"},{"start":5793.272,"end":5803.322,"text":"抱歉讓我這樣講西方有一句話不要倒洗澡水連嬰孩一起倒掉意思就是說"},{"start":5813.82,"end":5822.482,"text":"公投是重要的跟選舉綁在一起利益甚佳而且過去的經驗也證明說是可以沒有問題"},{"start":5823.957,"end":5848.674,"text":"所以我剛才進一步跟您請教因為我時間有限我等一下會被主席請下台所以我剛剛問假設有人立法院提案就要在今年大選的時候他真的就有公投題目可以一起投然後又有一群選民假設他真的要惡意操作製造台灣內部的分裂跟不團結氣氛那我就申請我的公民投票部分我可能在AD可是我的九合一大選我還是回到我的戶籍地"},{"start":5849.034,"end":5866.814,"text":"然後到最後說是你們中選會害他不得不拋棄其中某一種投票的權利請問我們怎麼預防這個問題我認為現在的困境就是各種荒謬的狀況真的都很有可能在台灣發生從立法院開始到很多不同黨籍的委員尤其是在野黨的委員"},{"start":5867.655,"end":5886.841,"text":"斷了製造非常多分裂跟惡意的這種對話跟論述所以我必須要提出這麼看似很荒謬的問題但是不可能因為只要是立法院提案或是行政院或是總統交付特殊的提案他就可以不用受兩年頻率這個限制是 我也很希望這種很獨特的狀況不會發生"},{"start":5889.002,"end":5905.577,"text":"但如果發生了呢我也希望不要發生那如果發生我也希望不要發生目前這個所以主委您聽被提名的聽懂我的意思了對不對我當然充分了解您意思中選會公告之後三個月目前新的法律規定是這樣子"},{"start":5906.4,"end":5935.477,"text":"對啊所以他只要在下個會期立法院只要有人惡意要操作這個題目我們立法院真的就可以提出一個公投提案然後逼你們中選會表態你們要不要支持這個公投提案讓他走入公投然後年底的時候就公投綁大選我們沒辦法處理政治問題中選會處理行務問題那所以我剛剛說嘛好那假設回到人民我剛剛的意思就是說我陳培餘的戶籍如果在花蓮我就回去花蓮投九合一可是我公投的題目我就把它移轉到台北我住的地方"},{"start":5935.882,"end":5958.645,"text":"那最後我創造一個輿論跟氛圍就是是你們中選會害我不得不拋棄其中一種選票因為就是在去年藍白惡意主導公投綁大選硬要這樣通過所以我認為更多的惡意操作都是有可能的那我基於一個負責任的民意代表我認為我有需要跟被提名先討論這個問題當然相關的惡意的做法可能不是"},{"start":5959.065,"end":5977.607,"text":"在您的想像當中但是我現在就先提出這個疑問當然我相信後續的很多討論跟配套假設在事件發生之後真的要拜託你們假設你們都能夠成功通過被提名然後成為中選會的委員當然這就是你們要頭痛的事情但我想我身為一個民主的後輩過去看您非常多民主的成就"},{"start":5977.947,"end":6000.545,"text":"我必須要在這裡跟您報告過去這兩年來在這一屆立法院確實就很有可能有相關惡意的操作那甚至有相關的支持者就予以配合他真的就會出現我的公投票在台北而我的九合一回到花蓮然後我就說是你們中選會害我只能投其中一種票以上這是我給您的建議好 我們會留意這方面的情況好 謝謝"},{"start":6002.891,"end":6014.934,"text":"謝謝我們感謝陳培宇執行我們現在吳石瑤立委執行謝謝主席辛苦了有請我們有備提名人現在有備提名人"},{"start":6030.526,"end":6032.708,"text":"我想我破題非常清楚當政治越紛擾的時候"},{"start":6049.464,"end":6078.306,"text":"中選會的選務就要越公正超越黨派而且要守憲合法這是每一個從政人員我想未來大家有機會如果通過同意權我們在宣誓的時候的誓詞就是於誓以至誠恪遵憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使職權所以超越黨派跟守憲合法是重要的下一頁"},{"start":6080.321,"end":6097.775,"text":"我這邊列出來私藥自己認為的成功的選務的三要素他當然要是公正的他也是要效率的他更要能夠變明這是選務成功的三要素我也認為中選會的委員的四個要件獨立行使職權"},{"start":6099.116,"end":6128.102,"text":"基於專業而且要能夠公正更要首先合法我的選務三要素跟中選會委員的四要件我們未來的這個主委提名人游老師應當都認可吧有沒有補充的完全認可好謝謝我要跟您報告思堯在努力的面向不談政治中選會有很多可以做得更好導入design thinking不曉得老師您對於design thinking有什麼樣的理解"},{"start":6130.72,"end":6157.111,"text":"Design Thinking沒關係 我來替您說明好了賈伯斯曾經說Design is not how it looksDesign is about how it works也就是Design Thinking不只是大家說設計美學事實上它是以使用者為切入點讓整個事情更有效率而且可以解決問題"},{"start":6158.669,"end":6175.842,"text":"所以我曾經因為台灣設計研究院是思堯在任內催生的一個新設的國家的組織透過設計的導入來攪動我們的公共政策也提升公共服務的效能跟品質所以設計院成立之後我們去跟很多部會敲敲門"},{"start":6177.063,"end":6191.602,"text":"我也帶著設計院去向前主委李敬勇先生敲敲門希望能夠導入Design Thinking讓我們的選務更進步更親民更有效率所以這是我當時2021年拜訪李前主委的時候來下一頁"},{"start":6193.106,"end":6222.486,"text":"而我們改變了什麼我希望未來的中選會的委員們都能夠持續來推動吳思瑤催生中選會CES設計院投入我們改革了選舉的很多的更進步更變明也更美學的這些做法第一個在投票動線的優化左邊是before右邊是after他更讓大家在有限的空間的移動更有效率就是design的導入"},{"start":6223.786,"end":6248.002,"text":"他在選舉公報的優化上 過去很多人說選舉公報要這麼細膩 排版就是非常的unfriendly所以我們找了設計師design thinking以後after是在後面非常清楚讓大家可以一覽所有候選人他的政見相關的學經歷這是設計導入的正向成果 下一頁"},{"start":6249.636,"end":6268.284,"text":"設計導入呢還包括這些標識系統的革新越美越清晰不會永遠都是標凱體不要永遠是中華民國美學而這樣的選舉美學我們獲得世界級的Good Design設計獎獲得亞洲最具影響力的設計獎"},{"start":6269.444,"end":6274.126,"text":"也獲得台灣的經典設計獎所以我希望未來的委員們都能夠持續的來優化這些design thinking導入我們的選務下一頁當然還包括 圈選票處我們真的也讓它更簡潔 更俐落 更好看而不是數十年如一日我們小時候真的投票就是這樣到現在立法院自己的圈選票處還是長一樣"},{"start":6294.796,"end":6308.22,"text":"是可以革新的我想先就這個正面的分享給大家我想主委大家應當都可以如果後續需要思堯很樂意再串聯設計界跟中選會合作主委未來的主委OK嗎我非常的"},{"start":6314.122,"end":6339.323,"text":"因為司法委員剛剛有繞英文我覺得這個就是中選會未來需要的中選會未來需要我是一個進步改革主義者所以任何能夠進步能夠改革的都是好的事情選舉更有效率選舉更美學選舉更變明然後大家對於選舉去投開票所的心情可能也好起來很好"},{"start":6341.304,"end":6365.775,"text":"讓我再講一句我沒有想到我在今天來立法院可以看到這些新的觀念我簡直是Unbelievable所以立法院是有認真問政優質進步的立委而不是只有毀憲亂政的黨團很好下一頁當然不在即投票是今天的重點我剛剛講的選舉的三要素"},{"start":6366.195,"end":6380.567,"text":"公正效率跟便民提案的民眾黨團顯然只著重在降低選民投票成成本的那個便民的思考但是對於公正性跟選舉的效率他會造成選務的混亂甚至影響秘密投票甚至"},{"start":6381.247,"end":6404.083,"text":"也或多或少有境外借選風險增高的疑慮產生對於整個投票民主制度的信任危機所以呢絕對不能先求有再求好我們都支持行政院的版本您剛剛也說公投先行嘛好這是我們共同立場我們希望未來大家一起來捍衛這樣子的做法下一頁而以"},{"start":6404.895,"end":6425.486,"text":"我們行政院去徵詢了這些執行者選務機關的代表對於不在籍投票欠缺配套的狀況之下是all say no21縣市認為現在可以上路的是0個縣市甚至連民眾黨提案黨團他們自己執政的新竹市也認為不可能"},{"start":6427.907,"end":6436.814,"text":"所以呢過半的縣市也都支持行政院的版本公投先行我希望我今天要多花一點時間為什麼要跟主席多爭取一點時間因為民眾黨團的不在即投票他們就是這一屆立法院的壞習慣近乎二讀啊"},{"start":6444.841,"end":6463.439,"text":"委員會沒有討論啊直接不翼而決啊很有可能這週搞不好禮拜五又拿出來表決了所以今天有這個機會跟大家討論我就是希望能夠把這些數據告訴國人告訴社會台灣沒有一個縣市的選務機關認為不在即投票現在可以上路"},{"start":6463.979,"end":6490.61,"text":"NO所以我們就要審慎公投先行是多數的共識下頁而我們以投票意願這是我做的其實台灣的選舉投票率都是七成以上對於這些已經有不在籍投票有不同的可能是電子郵票可能是境外投票不同的行使的這些不在籍投票的國家台灣的投票率都是高的"},{"start":6491.11,"end":6509.685,"text":"除了南韓 南韓有他這一次總統大選不同的政治社會經濟的背景所以說不再投票並不是等同於高投票意願的這個思維我要在這裡論述 在下一頁更重要的是 未來這是大家的事情我們要辦一個讓人民滿意的選舉"},{"start":6511.072,"end":6519.34,"text":"而你看看台灣目前選務的滿意度2024年總統立委選舉84%的人民滿意給各縣市的選委會跟中選會拍拍手2022地方選舉滿意度83.2%2020總統立委選舉滿意度86.9%唯一一次就是剛剛未來的這個主委候選人說的"},{"start":6537.396,"end":6557.089,"text":"災難的2018的那一次公投房大學滿意度是28不滿意度高達68.6%這更要讓我們看到人民的聲音好我跳到我最後一個主題好嗎對不起因為有民調專家我還是想問一下這一題主委"},{"start":6558.792,"end":6566.754,"text":"我一直叫您主委他未來的主委你認為在台灣中共競選境外勢力競選的嚴重嗎有這麼難回答嗎我坦白講作為一個嚴謹的政治學者來講我要回答的是說感覺上很嚴重"},{"start":6586.178,"end":6598.011,"text":"事實上政府沒有找到非常多的證據來證明它很嚴重所以我覺得我們應該審慎地去評估這件事情因為主席站起來證據在這裡 證據在這裡看清楚"},{"start":6602.446,"end":6618.943,"text":"法務部公布中國借選的手段境外資金的借選網路選舉的賭盤跟認知作戰假訊息的操作2024年被偵辦的依反滲透法的案件境外勢力借選117件287人這個不是證據嗎 主委 下一頁"},{"start":6626.317,"end":6639.833,"text":"而國民黨黨主席的選舉是自己自家的人跳出來批評的我就不再贅述了中國的借選變本加厲我們就是要欲提從寬料敵從嚴下一頁"},{"start":6643.735,"end":6659.098,"text":"各國都有韓國加拿大澳洲美國印度甚至在美國這種民主的國家中國可以利用製造假駕照的方式大量的協助中國的僑民去投票假駕照的方式"},{"start":6659.739,"end":6686.695,"text":"所以世界各國面對中國的借選都在進行ING的防範主委 我們不要掩耳盜鈴您是民調專家 我問您一個專業的問題現在都有民調禁制期在選舉前公布的日期您覺得現在是幾天 您知道嗎10天您認為如果要調整 同意嗎未嘗不可"},{"start":6687.675,"end":6704.173,"text":"未嘗不可 那調整到幾天是可以接受的幾天好您的我尊重 台灣是民主社會現在國民黨立委要調變三天啦太危險啦 太危險啦我們回到前一頁"},{"start":6705.868,"end":6720.12,"text":"我們看看喔中國受益記者與退休教授捏造9次不實民調遭判刑司法判刑張顯耀先生涉嫌受中國指示發布講民調介入選舉遭起訴這都是司法偵辦換言之為什麼66%民主國家有選舉的民調"},{"start":6723.123,"end":6723.343,"text":"太短"},{"start":6747.498,"end":6770.254,"text":"太短嗎所以就專業論專業我覺得我們今天做一個非常好的示範沒有政黨立場我們超越黨派就專業論專業我們期待每一個委員都是獨立的專業的首先合法的以及能夠公正行使職權的最後一個提醒您提醒主席拍謝下一頁公投的那個這一個"},{"start":6773.496,"end":6779.772,"text":"國民黨提出修公統法要用公民覆決來推翻憲判主委你認為呢"},{"start":6781.392,"end":6809.717,"text":"這會是一個高度爭議性的問題所以我剛剛說中學會委員要守憲合法不問黨派守憲合法是基本的底線憲法78條司法院統一解釋憲法之權憲法訴訟法38條所有的憲法判決人民各機關都要服從而人民就包括公投行使的這些主體人民釋字185號也說明了不容挑戰用任何方式來推翻憲判"},{"start":6810.237,"end":6835.906,"text":"公投法第二條也規定公投的實施要遵循憲法的規定我要提醒大家未來的立法院一再的毀憲亂政要用公投法的修正來凌駕憲法未來這個難題可能會落在各位委員你們在審查公投案的當下我要提醒不看黨派不看顏色守憲合法是我們每一個人宣誓就職"},{"start":6838.7,"end":6847.929,"text":"的誓詞請大家謹記在心好謝謝游老師我今天多次稱呼您主委不好意思僭越了被提名人游盈隆先生我們一起加油謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳思堯委員質詢我們請黃建斌召委質詢抱歉讓你等很久謝謝"},{"start":6869.185,"end":6878.691,"text":"好 謝謝召委 主席我們先有請我們貝提名人游盈隆先生上台貝提名人游教授"},{"start":6882.697,"end":6898.354,"text":"老師好黃委員好老師好 老師因為目前還在這個人事審查階段嘛所以本席就先稱呼為有董事長其實我相信台灣的民眾對你都不陌生你過去擔任過民進黨副秘書長還有海基會副董事長那在政壇的"},{"start":6900.052,"end":6920.889,"text":"經歷非常豐富是我們的大前輩後來擔任台灣民意基金會董事長也經常發布民調跟時事的評論很多見解其實常常引起回響像是去年民進黨發動主導大罷免結果大失敗的時候你就非常直率的說大罷免是惡意的在排除在野黨"},{"start":6922.977,"end":6941.162,"text":"但是它不會被選民所接受然後你更直接的批評說民進黨推動大罷免毫無正當性那可以說是民主之詞那本是要對於你雖然出身民進黨但卻有足夠的勇氣來說出民眾的心聲並且給予我們執政者中肯的這個建議這件事情我們想要你格鬥的這個困難"},{"start":6942.322,"end":6967.967,"text":"那尤其身為現在身為中選會主委的這個被提名人擔任這樣的角色就是必須要能夠超越黨派然後克尊中立那帶領我們中選會發揮本來應該要發揮這個超然獨一的這個功能因為在過去我們中選會的中都被人家下面加一個新被批評是中心的中這個很一樣他不是中於人民是中於執政黨所以"},{"start":6969.071,"end":6983.864,"text":"舉例來說在大罷免期間很多立委辦公室都發韓文去中選會希望能夠提供一些相關的資料那中選會都用行政流程的理由然後一拖再拖就有這些不願意給立委提供給立委的這些資料"},{"start":6984.685,"end":7008.041,"text":"甚至都還沒有經過中選會的這個會議的審議通過就霸團跟這些媒體都有辦法先拿到然後接下來就是在網路上公開然後帶風向那發生這樣的情況就是相對是非常明顯有違反這個中選會這個有違反這個行政中立甚至有泄密這個嫌疑那這也是為什麼中選會長期以來形象一直不好的這個原因之一就是因為他雙標讓他認為他雙標沒有"},{"start":7010.822,"end":7034.471,"text":"做到這個客手超然獨立這個立場因此本席也希望說如果未來老師有順利成為中選會的主委一定要無往出眾那秉持客觀中立勇於對執政者提出建議說真話甚至批評的這個勇氣這是我們大家符合大家對你原本的這些期待那接下來本席要針對溫泉中有關於不在籍投票的議題來跟您討論"},{"start":7035.356,"end":7057.242,"text":"就是你在問卷中的回應是說不在即投票涉及憲法保障人民參政權擴大政治參與意義重大你舉雙手贊成這點本席給予肯定因為你的態度非常清楚明確就是說當你也聽到說不在即投票當然還有許多行政跟技術上的問題需要來克服那"},{"start":7058.777,"end":7082.93,"text":"這個但是問題是身為選務機關的選務主管機關應該要站在守護人民投票權當出發點那努力去解決問題克服困體才對所以因此本席也希望說如果老師你就任主委的時候能夠更進一步積極的來推動不在籍投票特別是針對這個偏鄉還有原住民地區來優先實行那為什麼本席會這樣講因為"},{"start":7084.574,"end":7101.843,"text":"我來住台東 台東就是一個偏鄉我們很多人都在外面工作 求學 很多的原因所以在每次要回去投票要花很多的成本這成本不只是交通上的成本 包括時間上的成本跟主委分享一下 像台北到台東坐火車四個小時"},{"start":7102.663,"end":7119.864,"text":"那到台東市 你要到其他的鄉鎮可能還要一到兩個小時的時間他可能投票就要花一天的時間這個是都會區沒有辦法想像你可能早上出去投票三十分鐘 人家知道有什麼事情在外面講話要花一天的時間這是偏鄉很大很大的投票上的困難那像我們2024年的總統大選"},{"start":7121.909,"end":7148.752,"text":"的投票率我們全台東縣是62%相較全國平均是72%我們才有10%因為先本市才太廣所以會影響到人民投票的意願這是本市支持不再投票最主要原因那希望我們在外工作這些台東的子弟或讀書的學子能夠也能夠享有跟其他人一樣投票的權利不會因為距離影響了投票的意願最後我也要再呼籲一下游董事長就是說"},{"start":7149.272,"end":7172.529,"text":"如果未來立法院審核通過你擔任中選委的主委我想也請你務必要保持過去一直保持的這個客觀中立勇於對執政者提出健眼的這個勇氣並持續地推動不再急投票落實憲法賦予人民的平等參政權也守護我們偏鄉民眾投票的權益謝謝博文請問董事長是不是可以來做到"},{"start":7173.469,"end":7196.17,"text":"當然 我覺得我剛剛已經講了不在即投票是世界的潮流 社會也高度關注身為一個政治學者也好 或者是一個知識分子也好我舉雙手贊成 但是我們還是要非常謹慎面對讓它循序漸進 不要追求一步到位否則會帶來很大的災難"},{"start":7197.857,"end":7215.906,"text":"對我們一起來努力啦 這可是真的 剛才剛才講的那些感受的地方我們剛才譬如要放鬆幾年那可能真的大家沒辦法 可是我也發電量所以我充分了解謝謝主委很正面的答覆 那我們一起加油那謝謝謝謝我們的備體兵人 謝謝召委 謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃建斌召委質詢我們請蘇巧"},{"start":7232.392,"end":7238.257,"text":"書面喔 好來 蘇巧惠 蘇巧惠不在 我們這裡有提名有委員抱歉 我想說我們的夢幻學生沒有看好 召委 我們議會同仁 請我們中選會被提名的人我們的主委我們的游老師 游教授"},{"start":7261.781,"end":7280.467,"text":"首先恭喜你啦被提名人但是我發早上很多人的爭議還是未來在網路上的假訊息包含不再去投票這是未來你當主委你要去推動要去承擔因為過去的九二一"},{"start":7282.681,"end":7298.868,"text":"過去的九合一上上界就是一個亂象那亂象的話你當一個主委你整個選舉的步調以及規劃都要很妥善現在整個中選會在這幾年"},{"start":7300.929,"end":7327.8,"text":"其實我們中選會我也是很肯定因為這幾年真的改變很多 國民黨的心目中真的有徹底改變但是未來不再去投票這是還要好好的去規劃還有在網路以境外的那個假訊息的問題假訊息的問題我認為主委你應該是一個學者出身應該對這個問題 你要怎麼去"},{"start":7330.519,"end":7354.725,"text":"第一時間你要怎樣去耗資怎樣去開發怎樣去下架這是未來你要做的是不是主委這一點你來做說明好不好謝謝吳委員的指教假訊息特別是在網路的時代的新奇是所有民主國家必須面對的巨大的挑戰"},{"start":7356.024,"end":7383.024,"text":"怎麼樣在假訊息衝刺之下能夠維持選務的公正性能夠讓所有的候選人還有選民都能夠獲得最好的保障這是中選會或是任何國家的選務單位必須面對的問題所以未來如果針對這個部分來說我相信中選會同仁"},{"start":7385.456,"end":7395.457,"text":"這方面經驗是非常豐富但是我們面對的是一個瞬息萬變的世界尤其是AI的時代所以"},{"start":7397.045,"end":7422.823,"text":"中選會怎麼樣能夠去面對這個問題中選會自己要有所節目但同時中選會是一個行政單位也需要立法院的強力的支持給予他 賦予他能力 賦予他資源讓他能夠應付這一個高度複雜而且充滿不確定性的年代"},{"start":7425.655,"end":7445.539,"text":"我們主委我們提名人真的你說這樣回答因為早過去中選會每次的選舉大多都是有一些網路的誤導以及境外的私立介入但是那時候很多都是反應中選會但是中選會還是沒作為"},{"start":7448.598,"end":7475.435,"text":"等到要有作為已經選舉完了這對候選人是非常的不公平所以這一點我要拜託我們未來的諸位這點一定要記著雖然是說我們要確保每一個好選人他們的反應例如說第一時間的反應我們都要立即的去處理這樣不做好選人他受到這真的是不公平啦"},{"start":7476.878,"end":7504.243,"text":"這一點 我再請教你 你說不在一起投票這一點 我聽剛才建平委員在執行你也是以我舉雙手贊成嘛那未來實施的時效是什麼時候目前中山會建議是這樣就是說從公民投票開始實施"},{"start":7506.408,"end":7531.953,"text":"從單一的全國性公民投票開始實施之後逐步地累積這方面的不在籍投票的相關的經驗降低它的弊端然後一步一步地推進到全國性的選舉包括總統 立委 甚至到地方的選舉這是需要一個過程 一段時間"},{"start":7532.933,"end":7548.591,"text":"不是立刻就去做事實上中選會也沒辦法決定我們立刻就去做中選會還是要遵循立法院制定的法律然後我們才能夠去依法行政但是中選會"},{"start":7550.252,"end":7573.561,"text":"秉持選務機關的立場也有責任和義務提供給立法院最充分的資訊這個可能面對的困難是什麼問題是什麼我們的建議是什麼我想這是中選會應該去做而且能做的好 謝謝我們當然啦我們中選會大家都期待嘛要有作為嘛"},{"start":7574.802,"end":7584.648,"text":"這是大家共同的期待以及目標吧好 謝謝 請委員那我請行政院秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":7591.687,"end":7597.131,"text":"委員長 委員長 現在全國 因為我看我們的媒體在報導我們的沙石的問題廢棄物的問題 現在是非常的嚴重所以說在這個部分 應該是我們在中央要跟地方政府來做協調"},{"start":7613.406,"end":7625.563,"text":"包含說每一管區 他們都可以說設置一個掩埋場或是你說停台北港 就是說每一個地方也不要說讓砂石運到各縣市 這樣說變成一個"},{"start":7628.696,"end":7656.747,"text":"流竄又是一個亂道的問題所以說這個博文因為現在大家都反映說都是中央規定什麼都推給中央這對我們中央非常的不公平所以我認為行政院應該找地方政府大家來設置要怎樣來處理包含我們的填海照路包含我們的港口"},{"start":7657.652,"end":7674.586,"text":"港口旁邊很多要有我們的後櫃一些大型的工業區這都可以來推動委員跟召委可以給我差不多三分鐘來報告跟說明好不好這三小時的事情可以分三方面來跟大家報告"},{"start":7675.669,"end":7701.155,"text":"GPS的部分啦 現在中央的政策是你可以用中央無關系來進步或是環境部的GPS這可以進入 第二有很多地方原本就有用GPS 無關系手機或是車機都可以進入 我們用GPS雙軌制的方式讓能夠載運沙石土方的車子能夠上路去載 這第一部分第二部分剛才委員在追尋的"},{"start":7703.575,"end":7711.761,"text":"戰智場的部分 現在中央加密集在跟地方開會在協調 中央會找從北到南八個戰智場"},{"start":7713.533,"end":7737.822,"text":"包括台北港 台中港 漳濱工業區台南有一部分那高雄這邊也有這個南興計畫的土地我們中央找八個站置場希望地方也能夠進來這個協助管理車可以走 也是有地方可以走這是第二部分第三個部分是就簡正便民的部分以前是這個"},{"start":7741.656,"end":7754.969,"text":"土方出來 要先經過土資廠再到最終處置廠但是土方有些依照法規 也是有加料現在可以從這個出廠直接到最終處理廠又或者是在台中經過分析70%的部分是可以"},{"start":7758.172,"end":7786.225,"text":"賣掉的也能夠就地來做合法的交易我們從這三個面向來做還需要一些時間中央可以跟地方做的合作公共工程也好各種私人的工程也好能夠在合乎法律的規定之下讓土方的全流向的管制穩健的上路還需要一點時間中央地方會合作政府民間也會一起合作依從委員報告"},{"start":7788.146,"end":7811.083,"text":"好 謝謝你說一些可再利用的這種的大家都不要說一味的全部都規定的實施的這樣我就去解決他們的問題不然現在很多你說每次我們都會去都在推動建設包括公共工程甚至也是土方沒有武器處這一點就是他們都來帶我們陳情所以說我今天你 秘書長你有來特別幫你提起"},{"start":7817.262,"end":7838.015,"text":"好 謝謝有什麼歡迎再麻煩委員跟行政院來講我們會繼續拍片 謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳祁銘在這裡要讓我們的秘書長說那刷牌也要刷牌更加到位 更加關心 更加了解因為這個萬事失去 真的很不好來 我們請劉淑萍委員質詢"},{"start":7849.241,"end":7858.113,"text":"好謝謝主席我現在請被提名人主委被提名的游盈隆教授游教授"},{"start":7866.1,"end":7890.239,"text":"郭教授您好您不只是政治學者你本身也曾經當過陸委會的副主委對於兩岸關係的法律體系還有國家忠誠的問題應該都有非常的了解我今天想要請教的一個制度性的矛盾就是陸籍配偶在台灣的戶籍滿了10年之後"},{"start":7891.44,"end":7918.63,"text":"依照兩岸人民關係條例呢他是可以參政的並且呢他也是經過中選會審查了具備了一個候選資格那另外呢但是我們看到是在國籍法依照20條呢他當選後呢在他的就任前或是一年之內呢必須提出放棄中國國籍的證明或是依照其他的法律規定來辦理否則就撤銷資格了那內政部長劉世芳呢他也主張可以參選但就任前"},{"start":7921.611,"end":7925.896,"text":"再用國籍法來去檢驗他的忠誠我認為有三個問題第一個是法律適用的問題兩岸人民關係條例是個特別法在跟國籍法發生衝突時是否應該優先適用呢那內政部 劉部長的說法是否已經有擴張裁量權"},{"start":7941.091,"end":7969.83,"text":"異越法律授權的這個問題那我先把問題說完那請這個被提名人游教授你就等一下再一起回應就我時間有限第二個問題就是參政公平性的問題那一個人可以參選後來當選但是最後是要高度仰賴對岸去要去出具這個文件然後才會被撤銷可是事實上這中共不會發的那是否會侵害到他的是陸配的一個憲法平等保障的這個參政權"},{"start":7971.171,"end":7998.713,"text":"那第三個就是說國家終審如何制度化這是民進黨非常重視的這個問題那終審應該的審核是在選前明確可預期的法律要求之下但是還是說他還會依據選後補件那如果拿不出來就撤銷那因此就想說如果要在最後的這個在這個相關的法律還沒有整合之前你是否認為就終選會應該主動的面對這樣一個法律衝突請劉教授回答 謝謝"},{"start":8000.996,"end":8025.23,"text":"這的確是一個非常棘手的問題對中選會來講一方面來講 站在保障參政權的立場這個中選會會樂見所有的國民的參政權都被完整的保障但是兩岸關係是高度的複雜"},{"start":8027.581,"end":8054.99,"text":"相關的法例到目前為止也沒有就這一點有非常完備清楚的立法所以在這種情況底下就留下了一個模糊的空間這個空間內政部有內政部的主張中選會在這上面幾乎沒有去主張什麼的這樣的一個立場"},{"start":8057.076,"end":8064.139,"text":"但主觀上您作為一個學者作為一個學者我覺得兩岸是一個高度複雜的問題我覺得這個目前這樣的一個問題"},{"start":8070.379,"end":8086.789,"text":"你就是侵犯他的公平參政權嗎這是好幾個價值牽扯在這裡面所以即便是在過去多年以來有國民黨執政時代有民進黨執政時代但通通沒有去根本解決這個問題所以這問題遺留下來這問題坦白講對中選會來講要交給中選會去處理這個是中選會沒這個能力"},{"start":8099.051,"end":8115.258,"text":"所以你們未來就是草獨立機關就不處理了是嗎不知道 我的意思是說那這個部分你應該是行政院這個可能秘書長要去回應那我現在問的一個問題更重要的是那特別法跟普通法的這個問題適用你應該怎麼看法呢"},{"start":8117.867,"end":8140.831,"text":"根據法律學當然我們在座有很多法律專家特別法是優於普通法所以兩岸人民關係條例但是這兩者因為兩岸關係高度的複雜牽扯著非常複雜的歷史的因果這裡面可能會衍生很多很多的問題就選務機關來講選務機關並沒有這種職權去做這個讓"},{"start":8147.829,"end":8168.575,"text":"所有的人滿意的這樣的處理我知道被提名人劉教授你就是現在在一個審查期間這個問題應該是民進黨非常care的問題的那的確也是有它的複雜性但是這個比較全國的人民包括學者專家必須好好去針對這個問題去好好去針對大家的部分要知道它的公平性"},{"start":8170.595,"end":8198.971,"text":"還有再一個問題在於說我們看到的是國內移轉投票的問題國內移轉投票涉及到的是又是一個價值非常重要的涉及到公平的平等權跟自由跟秘密投票然後也涉及到國家的信任那我剛才也聽到是主委是不是您對於一般我們民眾黨是提出來是國內移轉投票請其他的政黨就是尤其是民進黨不要去特別的去汙名化國內的移轉投票那請我想要說那個被提名的你針對"},{"start":8200.454,"end":8204.486,"text":"這國內移轉投票的話 您的態度是支持還是怎麼樣我支持啊"},{"start":8205.37,"end":8229.74,"text":"我完全同意 但是我覺得不是一步到位沒錯 沒錯 我後面繼續問下去那這個部分我知道你也在你的這個對民眾黨的回應報告當中有提到說他必須按部就班因為涉及到國家信任的問題還有安全的這個秘密投票問題那你的意思是說從先從公投開始嘛對不對包括是從到選舉的到原住民的地方到中央是嗎"},{"start":8230.68,"end":8247.722,"text":"好那重點是相關的問題包括說我們就他的一個配套措施就是說他對於秘密投票有被破壞的問題還有對選票保管跟運送的問題那就這兩點你是不是夠可能如果你當中選會的主委你有沒有什麼後續的一個配套措施規劃或是想法初步的現在"},{"start":8248.683,"end":8270.539,"text":"我還沒有上任中選會主委啦不過我已經很努力的在了解相關的狀況我覺得技術上來講應該是可以處理啦否則這個像原住民的這個部分已經有了初步的大院也已經通過了相關的法律來解決這個問題我覺得"},{"start":8275.009,"end":8284.245,"text":"這個基本上是不會有大問題所以是基本上技術性沒有大問題是不是願意要不要做行政機關這部分要不要做的問題我想要講清楚的就是說"},{"start":8285.734,"end":8304.204,"text":"如果不在籍投票立刻就要實施在2026的這一次九合一地方選舉那是幾乎所有的人包括22個這個地方的選舉委員會就是各縣市六都都岐岐以為不可"},{"start":8304.944,"end":8330.412,"text":"所以應該要分階段然後實施之後能夠獲得社會的信心社會的信賴我們再來推展到選舉上面去所以大家可以預期如果您順利當選到中選會主委的話應該會提出中選會的版本半部就版了就實施可行性去進行嗎是我希望這樣子好 謝謝那另外最後一個問題這個主席先"},{"start":8333.014,"end":8351.49,"text":"包容一下好這地方就說您在您的民眾黨的回應的報告當中我提到說呢對於中選會對公投案的審查僅限法律明定要件不涉及到價值判斷不涉及到價值判斷那就是這部分嘛那請問是說如果是針對114年"},{"start":8354.113,"end":8381.015,"text":"在有送到中選會的就立法院的一個有公投案這樣子的案提到的中選會去做審查的時候這一個時候是針對說題目是您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決的政策呢這個立法院公投案假設您當時是一個中選會的主委您對於這樣子的一個案子是否能夠成案您的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":8382.376,"end":8395.759,"text":"我觉得那一个案子对中选会来说我事后了解中选会承受了空前巨大的压力要做出一个正确的决定是非常困难的"},{"start":8396.584,"end":8426.071,"text":"但是我們也要注意到中選會不是立法院提出了前部否決中選會也同意也處理了河山研議公投是的所以有一個通過一個不通過我相信上一屆的中選會委員會有他們的相當完整的思維但是主委被提名人我是問您的看法我是問您的看法"},{"start":8426.491,"end":8452.916,"text":"我的看法對 這個議題我覺得這是一個非常困難的問題您這樣狀況是 您的初步判斷因為這涉及到的是在程序上面這部分你是指的 劉委員我再把題目說一遍 您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一次決之政策那這個部分是讓民眾去決定"},{"start":8454.907,"end":8479.603,"text":"所以他如果過程當中的程序上面並沒有違反的話應該是讓民眾去決定公投的意思就是在這樣子沒錯 我充分了解你的意思而這正好也就是觸及了或凸顯了目前台灣司法審查權跟直接民選 直接民主之間的衝突"},{"start":8481.806,"end":8509.254,"text":"所以這個問題到目前為止還社會還不是完全了解但是我覺得社會可以廣泛的去討論是不是公民投票的結果不能抵觸憲判這是一個很嚴肅的憲政的問題我覺得社會可以去討論但是上一屆的這樣的一個裁決我現在也算半個當事人我不便表達意見"},{"start":8510.151,"end":8536.947,"text":"好 這樣好 謝謝至少我覺得這個被提名的劉教授您提出出來之後您知道在現在在審查期間包括也是你過去的在民進黨的黨員後來你退黨但是你就知道說你自己有一個這個學者的價值這個風範我是覺得已經建立起來就是有一個高度肯定但我希望說您如果被立法院同意的話你就繼續的在這個位置上面就是在跳脫到政治堅守到行政中立"},{"start":8537.347,"end":8565.251,"text":"然後也重建中選 各界對於中選會的這樣一個信任因為大家都覺得中選會那個中是中於執政黨的那個中然後也落實到法定選務然後保障人民的實質參與這對你的期許這一點請委員放心好 謝謝游盈隆就是游盈隆 不會改變好 我們期待大家一起有目共睹期待OK 謝謝謝謝 感謝劉淑檳委員質詢我們王宏威委員"},{"start":8572.011,"end":8577.399,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們被提名人游教授加油教授"},{"start":8583.083,"end":8604.505,"text":"好 游教授辛苦了我們委員好可以看到今天包含就是我們整個審查會裡面包含我們國民黨的委員對游教授也有相當多的肯定那我想請問一下因為游教授過去除了是政治學教授還有民調"},{"start":8605.426,"end":8633.022,"text":"那當然對於政治也有很多評論而且你過去長期當這個政府的烏鴉執政黨的烏鴉那譬如說在去年的大罷免的時候你有很多的評論你的評論是大罷免是台灣民主之恥而且你曾經痛批有兩大戰犯死不認錯就是包含民進黨黨團的柯建民總召還有沈伯陽委員"},{"start":8634.443,"end":8657.7,"text":"那你有提到就是大罷免是災難性的民主內戰那當然其實你的評論也不止於此所以你這一次在被提名的時候外界其實有很多人是驚訝的那甚至有一種說法是說你可能可以得到在野黨委員的票數但是民進黨內部很多人對你有意見"},{"start":8658.661,"end":8681.129,"text":"所以您認為在這一次的整個的提名的表決過程裡面你目前評估你可以得到民進黨全數的票數同意你嗎這部分我不敢去評估不敢評估 所以有可能會有人跑票"},{"start":8682.009,"end":8699.439,"text":"我不知道好 那另外請教一下因為我剛剛特別提到了一些大罷免在這個過程裡面很多人就開始談到一些我們法律跟一些制度上的問題在之前我們通過了就是在聯署要付身分證 銀本"},{"start":8700.885,"end":8716.759,"text":"民進黨政府有來提出復議但是呢並沒有拿去釋憲所以這個應該已經是可以確定的這個行政院也沒有拿去釋憲然後我想請問一下我們還有一個版本就是呢"},{"start":8717.299,"end":8738.212,"text":"加一版本就是你的被罷免票數要多過就是被罷免要多過你之前之前的當選的票數才能夠確定被罷免那我不曉得游教授你對於這一個的修法版本你個人的意見是什麼 你同意嗎謝謝委員 我的看法是這樣第一個"},{"start":8748.14,"end":8762.371,"text":"家父身份證這個是加嚴罷免權的刑事坦白講在某個程度上我是贊成的因為全世界各國國會議員是沒有什麼國會議員罷免制度的"},{"start":8767.813,"end":8786.053,"text":"沒錯啊所以就這個部分來講我純粹基於學者的立場我是覺得加嚴我是可以同意的那第二個就立委提罷免同意票需高於當選票我覺得這兩個不能夠相"},{"start":8787.722,"end":8797.087,"text":"不能夠不能相提並論對 不能相提並論所以你對於加1的版本你個人有疑慮"},{"start":8798.26,"end":8824.273,"text":"我覺得那個不合理好 你覺得不合理好 因為我們今天是審查必須把一些就是我們現在修法的過程要就教於你另外我看到你回答就是我們立法院各黨團的就是有關於罷免的部分我們在罷免的過程裡面有很多的不合理其中有關於是政治獻金因為我們自己是身為被罷免人"},{"start":8824.833,"end":8850.707,"text":"那因為我們是被監督的對象但是相對在政治獻金上就出現了一個極不平衡的狀態如果在選舉裡面不管是多少人參選每一個人都是受到政治獻金法的一個規範但是我們在這一次被罷免裡面其實整個的政治獻金是非常非常混亂的"},{"start":8852.729,"end":8873.566,"text":"我看到你的回答是說你也認為即便是罷免者包括領銜人也好或罷免團體他的政治獻金也應該受到一定的管理和規範所以我想請問你這個部分你要不要再講一下就是有關於政治獻金的規範你個人的看法是怎麼樣政治制度是嚴禁的"},{"start":8878.448,"end":8893.165,"text":"不是從一開始就完美無缺所以經過不斷的實踐實驗之後該修的是應該要修我個人的意見是被罷免"},{"start":8894.775,"end":8918.224,"text":"的人要受到政治獻金法的限制但是提罷免的人目前沒有任何的這方面的沒有任何規範所以我覺得未來是可以考慮修法雖然政治獻金法的主管機關並不是中選會但是這涉及了選務選舉跟罷免的公平性"},{"start":8918.924,"end":8942.193,"text":"的確 因為這樣所以我才表示意見好 所以你也認為這個應該修好 另外一個在這次罷免裡面有一個完全回憶於過去的做法這次中選會也被我們認為是極為不中立而且有政治辦案之嫌就是有關於在聯署告發聯署 錯假聯署的時間"},{"start":8946.114,"end":8957.197,"text":"過去事實上去年大罷免並不是第一次也不會是最後一次但是中選會過去歷次針對有關於罷免的錯假連署每一個包含韓國瑜 王浩宇 陳柏惟 黃婕 所有的"},{"start":8966.599,"end":8992.605,"text":"都是在投票之後然後去做告發每一個都是在投票之後去做告發唯有一次例外唯有一次例外就是在去年的大罷免大家可以看到去年大罷免整個去告發錯假連署然後去偵辦錯假連署大概都是史上這個最為激烈的一次那這中間就是跟中選會的告發時間有關"},{"start":8995.686,"end":9011.218,"text":"那到底這個告發時間應該是在聯署期間呢或者是在投票之後不要去影響最後的罷免結果其實應該要有一套制度的但是中選會當時就是完全違反過去的做法當然就被我們認為說這個是有政治辦案的嫌疑所以這個就是中選會的業務了"},{"start":9022.526,"end":9046.744,"text":"所以我想請問 我們主委被提名人如果你擔任主委 針對未來夾是有這個連署 錯假連署其實這個連署還不只是罷免 還有選舉也會有這個你是不是應該建立一套 一個可長可久的制度而不是隨著不同的情境而改變"},{"start":9049.793,"end":9066.523,"text":"對我來講這個時候要回答這個問題的確是困難的怎麼會困難我還是要回答這個問題這個一點都不困難吧我還是回答這個問題我自己也參選過所以我也知道其實選舉期間為了避免影響選舉"},{"start":9068.467,"end":9097.258,"text":"即便有嫌疑人涉嫌犯罪检调司法单位也都是事后侦办事前也有一些但是基本上不会这么做所以我不了解大坝棉去年实际的状况他们是怎么样做成决定我不了解那是一页沧桑史我觉得事后可以再去检讨改进"},{"start":9098.116,"end":9109.05,"text":"我特別指出這個這個其實完全是技術性的竊選完全是技術竊選有非常多種因為我時間到了不耽誤下面時間謝謝謝謝我們感謝王宏威委員資訊我們現在習新穎委員"},{"start":9124.636,"end":9129.988,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請這個主委被提名人請阿佑教授"},{"start":9137.951,"end":9155.406,"text":"这个我们游教授好那本席想请教您这个您应该知道现在AI时代的来临那AI的身为技术也已经成为全球民主的威胁了"},{"start":9156.207,"end":9183.176,"text":"那您被提名为这个中选会的主委所以今天本席的质询要为我们的民主宪政找到疫苗那我们台湾民主的选举绝对不能被破坏也不能被不信任台湾的民主如果被破坏那就不战而亡这点您认同吧完全赞同对 所以近年来AI深维技术您"},{"start":9184.617,"end":9203.694,"text":"這個是不是有所觀察或者是您的了解是如何現在全球民主都受到AI身為技術的威脅很多國家都發生過類似的案例您有沒有一些體會或觀察的心得當然有我覺得"},{"start":9204.875,"end":9218.896,"text":"AIA所帶來的新的時代假訊息的衝刺氾濫這是所有的民主國家必須要去面對的而且是一個挑戰也可能是一個噩夢但是應該要嚴正以待"},{"start":9221.007,"end":9237.232,"text":"对 那现在我们的选罢法的机制大部分是事后追究责任那没有办法挡住选前特别选前24小时 48小时的这种假讯息的洪水"},{"start":9238.012,"end":9267.01,"text":"针对这一块本系想请教您是否支持您如果就任中选会主委之后能够主动推动这个选罢法的修订应该要纳入一些预防性的条款例如强制要求一些平台他一定要标记标记我这个平台展现出来的影片或是照片图像他是AI生成的内容而且"},{"start":9267.91,"end":9295.658,"text":"也要賦予中選會針對經過鑑識是身為的影音或是圖像呢有權下令做緊急處置針對這一塊您的看法是我的看法是這樣中選會只是一個不到60個人的一個單位長期以來這個努力於顯霧的行政那對於這一個"},{"start":9298.639,"end":9315.652,"text":"當前這麼巨大的一個時代的巨變所衍生的這些問題恐怕不是中選會單獨可以承擔的當然…所以我本席第一個主要的是說你如果擔任主委你是不是你可以推動一些修法"},{"start":9316.472,"end":9339.066,"text":"有法依據法令那相關單位就可以來進行那你中選會是很重要辦選務必須要公平公正甚至你要讓整個的選舉過程合乎民主程序所以您是否會主動推動選罷法的修訂納入針對現在AI身為的一些預防性條款"},{"start":9339.85,"end":9354.423,"text":"我覺得這是義不容辭會嘛 對應該這麼做但是必須要建立在這個非常好的扎實的研究的基礎上面然後才能夠提出來"},{"start":9356.885,"end":9382.496,"text":"當然 但是現在很多實務上非常的需要剛剛您也已經有稍微提到就是說整個的修法如果只靠中選會可能會遇到相關部會互踢皮球我想您大概也有預期所以本席也想請教您上任之後如何確保您跟NCC速發部的一些實質的合作"},{"start":9384.439,"end":9411.067,"text":"我們主觀上當然是願意的就是很多事情事實上就是跨部會必須要去共同面對的那是否願意發起跨部會的這種專案小組那來制定一套可操作的這個預防機制而不能讓我們整個民主選舉民主制度的這個防護網呢最後被破壞在中選會的職權範圍內"},{"start":9413.283,"end":9428.344,"text":"該怎麼做就怎麼做而且要全力去做好 這個大原則方向很好那現在就是說您如果就任後整個的修法如果來不及可是"},{"start":9430.015,"end":9457.33,"text":"馬上選舉就到了這個AI的假訊息爆發怎麼辦那中選會會不會有一些行政備案譬如說透過行政命令要求平台在選舉期間加強審核以及跟事實查核中心進行24小時的熱線等等這些問題我猜您大概還沒想過據我知道這個中選會這方面已經有一套做法"},{"start":9458.371,"end":9466.908,"text":"就是说上次我们才质询我们的召委王召委也很认同的我不知道中选会送来了没"},{"start":9468.726,"end":9487.695,"text":"我不曉得中選會送來沒有我現在是被提名人對 沒關係那您就表達您的立場我覺得就這個部分來講所謂身為的這些照片這些影響它是直接影響到選民跟候選人所以"},{"start":9488.976,"end":9505.921,"text":"中選會能夠做的大概是怎麼樣在第一時間降低它的傷害而不是根本上解決這個假訊息的問題中選會要主動積極建立這個綠色通道讓這整個能夠不受影響因為那樣的一個問題的存在是"},{"start":9506.821,"end":9535.966,"text":"跨政黨的噩夢不是只有哪一個特定政黨對 我們不是為特定政黨這個選舉的公平公正很重要那主委 所以這個AI的偽造像洪水猛獸我們希望預防勝於治療那中選會一定要主動修法不然我們的民主會淪為科技戰場的犧牲品這一塊我們希望如果您能夠順利擔任主委的話這個部分一定要落實而且堅持住好不好"},{"start":9536.246,"end":9547.357,"text":"我們嚴正以待 嚴肅以待謝謝謝謝我們感謝習慶雲委員執行我們家葉研資委員麻煩請那個游教授游教授"},{"start":9566.704,"end":9590.549,"text":"右岩好右教授好 這樣跟右教授請教一下在我們選罷法裡面有規定如果要罷免的話要一年之後才能夠進行那你覺得當初選罷法會這樣子規定的原因是什麼為什麼不是立刻選完之後就可以搞罷免一定要一年後我猜想立法者大概也意識到不要讓當選完之後立刻面臨"},{"start":9592.193,"end":9611.123,"text":"當選人被罷免的情境不要說這個讓人家輸不起就搞罷免應該是這樣吧總是要讓人家做個一年看看做得好不好再決定要不要罷免但是在這個李靖勇前主委在這邊我也問過他一樣的問題他說沒有不可以"},{"start":9611.992,"end":9633.778,"text":"現在的法律是沒有不可以換句話說如果我選上了輸給我的人輸不起他可能覺得說在選舉過程當中有什麼失誤或他覺得他想要再拚翻盤的機會他在敗選的隔天他跟他的團隊就可以來搞罷免這個是我們現在法律規定就是這樣嗎您的看法"},{"start":9635.23,"end":9659.813,"text":"我看怎麼詮釋啦我覺得選舉結束之後如果有國民不滿選舉結果不滿當選人所以他會對他講出很多負面的話說要罷免等等等等那是屬於言論自由的範圍言論自由當然都尊重但是如果是由敗選的那一方或其政黨"},{"start":9660.794,"end":9681.628,"text":"在背後煽動發起的你覺得這有符合民主的常態嗎因為以目前的法律的規定事實上也是一年之後才能夠禁止罷免像中選會才能夠可是問題是輸的人他可以在輸的隔天就開始規劃 煽動然後搞大罷免"},{"start":9682.228,"end":9709.986,"text":"我們去年看到的狀況就是這樣雖然民進黨嘴巴不講是他們發動的但柯建民總召就很誠實嘛他在接受媒體訪問的時候就說在投票的隔天還是隔兩天就去找過賴總統啊這在他媒體訪問公開講的啊怎麼透過罷免去扭轉國會的席次嘛在我們那一區包括我們國民黨很多立委的選區都一樣啊發動罷免推動罷免最用力的就是輸的那一方嘛我那一區就是這樣啊"},{"start":9710.831,"end":9729.608,"text":"他的我在那個罷免說明會我有公開資料啊他輸給我的那個立委的服務處主任沒多久就成立了一個就加入一個這個罷免的社團在推動然後不然就是想要取而代之的民進黨的人主要在推動嘛那這是民主常態嗎你覺得是嗎"},{"start":9730.928,"end":9744.354,"text":"當然不是 這是政治問題啦對啊 那問題是法律規範不嚴謹或中選會的按住就會造成這樣反民主的狀況出現嘛所以如果說您當主委當然中選會是辦選務的機關但您也是洞見觀瞻啊"},{"start":9749.556,"end":9777.248,"text":"如果是您的話您覺得要怎麼去結合您的未來的職務讓這種反民主的狀況繼續發生我們只能夠依法行政就中選會的角度來講但是以我作為一個政治學者的角度來講我長期以來反對在國會議員的層次立委來存在一個罷免制度因為全世界先進民主國家沒有哪一個國家的國會議員"},{"start":9779.502,"end":9805.255,"text":"美國的聯邦參議員 眾議員當選之後面臨被罷免沒有的 制度上就不存在這種可能性但是台灣也許這個就是說在孫中山先生的思想底下然後去制定的選舉罷免創制復建那個那個是這樣子因為我們國家不可能沒有罷免因為走到這一步不可能沒有罷免但是"},{"start":9805.935,"end":9830.98,"text":"應該是怎麼去完善罷免的制度比如說現在因為罷免的門檻比較低它只要兩成五所以就會讓選輸的人覺得有機可乘怎麼透過大罷免去扭轉剛剛產生的民意這就是我覺得制度造成的漏洞但是大罷免結果其實對社會非常傷害像我們那一區就出現非常多的對立包括家庭"},{"start":9832.558,"end":9858.648,"text":"長輩跟子女之間也因為立場不一樣罷免的仇恨的煽動彼此不和甚至有女兒離開家庭都有我覺得這個是當初發動大罷免的人他可能沒有顧慮到那麼多但這絕對不會只是政治的問題這是整個社會的問題它會影響到整個社會因為我覺得這個事情是非常嚴重沒有正當性的罷免那時候罷免我的被推出來的領先人用了一個理由"},{"start":9859.699,"end":9868.583,"text":"2023年葉元之怎麼樣怎麼樣所以要罷免葉元之我2024才做立委就是說因為剛選完就要搞罷免他也找不出什麼理由他就是這樣隨便亂講這個就是罷免制度的漏洞"},{"start":9872.186,"end":9889.531,"text":"我們對未來的主委或是現在的游教授充滿了期待覺得到時候如果在一些法令的解釋 詮釋甚至改革上面希望說您可以更積極的去讓我們的台灣更民主 更健全我一定會這麼做好 謝謝"},{"start":9899.305,"end":9920.845,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝葉延之委員質詢在這被提名人游一龍先生之說明跟答詢已經結束了被提名人游一龍先生可以先離席"},{"start":9922.298,"end":9931.549,"text":"我們休息十分鐘繼續我們再來請胡博遠先生來審查謝謝大家大家辛苦了"},{"start":10558.82,"end":10567.602,"text":"我們現在繼續進行比提名人胡柏諺先生跟說明跟詢問請中選委員比提名人並為副主任委員胡柏諺先生說明謝謝"},{"start":10591.648,"end":10612.745,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位委員我是胡博焱很榮幸有這個機會受行政院的信任而被提名擔任這樣的職務的工作那我也希望這個是一個這幾年來我們都看到台灣其實不只是在立法院在每個地方政治的抗爭性都非常大我想"},{"start":10613.726,"end":10632.553,"text":"政治不是只有抗爭也有很多討論跟協調這件事情而我們其實這個委員會呢目前的七位提名人基本上來講來自各個不同的黨派其實以目前的地方選委會的態勢是一樣的那說實在的相比"},{"start":10633.086,"end":10659.767,"text":"我們內政委員會可能處理的像內政部的事情或是其他部會中選會是一個行政動能很小那嚴格來講處理的事情也比較單純但是雖然它是單純的但是這件事情其實處理不好就會動搖國本的這事情那但是呢中選會其實剛剛主委提名有提過說我們其實原而編制也不過才60個人就像地方選舉委員會也不過才200多個人"},{"start":10661.266,"end":10686.326,"text":"所以呢我們雖然有七個提名人但是大概只有主委跟副主委需要兩個值日生來負責擦黑板倒水的這樣的工作這個就由游老師跟我來擔任但是重要的是這七個人其實在未來在決定事情上面以及現在的四位委員在未來決定事情上面來講在這個委員會當中而言每個人的決定的份量是一樣的而且這也是體現這一個國家在處理選舉事務當中而言"},{"start":10690.209,"end":10701.315,"text":"各黨各派在處理事務當中都有應該要發言的地位而我們希望藉由這一次的審查可以讓我們國家可以走得更順利謝謝謝謝我們這裡電視台有他的詢問詢問質詢"},{"start":10721.006,"end":10743.355,"text":"謝謝主席我們請被提名人胡伯彥教授胡伯彥教授被提名人好我想剛剛你有說明就是這一次的話基本上是由各黨派來推薦也是我們進入到立法院將近兩年來第一次的人事審查"},{"start":10743.823,"end":10772.266,"text":"是由各黨派來推薦我們當然也希望說能夠有這樣一個好的結果那當然今天有幾個題目要就教於您那首先是在我們提問的一個問題當中針對中選會是否有權審查立法院的公投提案那您的書面回答得非常清楚就是依公投法第15條第二項立法院交付案件排除人民提案審核的程序"},{"start":10772.748,"end":10797.939,"text":"就法律解釋上應該沒有審查的適用你甚至說立法院交付本為政治決定在邏輯上不該由中選會進行合法的審查所以我在這邊請您先把你的立場講清楚你的意思是不是只要立法院三讀通過交付到中選會這樣的公投案其實中選會的角色就是依法辦理呢"},{"start":10798.618,"end":10814.724,"text":"我認為一件事情就是就這個法律條文解釋邏輯上面來講因為他排除了第九條到第十三條的適用所以在這個時候如果中選會審查必須要回到一件事情上面來講就像以前所講的就是請你間斷回答是不是一個政策是不是因為在您的報告裡面在這個選擇上面來講就會是如何而且不是只有這個條文因為我們還有防衛性公投"},{"start":10824.287,"end":10844.933,"text":"的問題就是如果這是您的回答嗎所以是不是就是應該遇到這個有立法院三路通過交付中選會的這樣的一個公投案中選會的角色就是依法辦理對是好那所以不能再用什麼非重大決策或是合法性把它擋下來是嗎"},{"start":10845.643,"end":10864.302,"text":"我認為這個問題的憲政問題應該是要由大法官來去解決那接下來也是我要請教您的就是您認為如果真的有憲政問題的話那您覺得中選會雖然是獨立行政的一個機關但認為行政權的一部分並非憲政機關所以憲政上的爭議"},{"start":10865.458,"end":10889.782,"text":"依照憲法應該交由大法官來處理這是您的回覆所以針對這個部分中選會它不是憲政的機關所以中選會如果過度介入只會讓選務複雜這也是您在回覆中提到的所以我要問得更直接一點就是中選會直接駁回公投案是不是嚴重的越權呢也僭越了大法官的職權"},{"start":10891.038,"end":10913.725,"text":"我其實在之前的研究報告有提出來一件事情是說中選會如果直接把人家駁回的話應該在法條裡面規範讓他立即可以去申請大官釋憲由大法官去解決所以中選會不可以駁回嗎我認為如果從我剛剛的研究報告立場上面來講從這個立場其實是可以讓他駁回但是後面接續的就是馬上"},{"start":10915.005,"end":10925.948,"text":"那個憲法解釋的問題可是中選會沒有權利嘛沒有權利駁回我們的公投案嘛如果照你剛剛的論點的話我們應該就是要辦理嘛那如果認為有問題的話再送交這個把憲政機關請申請釋憲的問題嘛對 所以這個部分的話就是好那其他機關是不是有辦法權利解釋違憲的問題"},{"start":10939.352,"end":10964.214,"text":"其他機關對行政機關可不可以解釋違憲的問題實際上來講每個行政機關基本上來講都是在依據憲法來做成決定對所以說好但是呢最終而言決定有沒有違憲的問題的時候就要變成是大法官對那所以說針對這個軍人加薪跟提高警校人員所得替代率的法律是否違憲其實應該不是行政院長說了算吧"},{"start":10965.034,"end":10983.286,"text":"應該是要申請這個大法官釋憲由大法官來決定那在還沒有宣判違憲之前是不是就是合乎憲法在您這個法律學者的這樣子一個我覺得這個憲政爭議而言應該要交由大法官來處理但是因為行政院認為他是違憲的違憲之前就是合乎憲法嗎"},{"start":10984.066,"end":11000.448,"text":"行政院認為它是違憲就像定出來的某些制度內立法院也有可能認為它是違憲的在你是法律學者的這樣子的一個立場你是不是針對這個部分就是只要還沒辦違憲之前就是合乎憲法只要還沒辦還沒有判違憲之前是不是就合乎憲法"},{"start":11001.277,"end":11007.305,"text":"跟委員報告就是每個行政機關他可能會認為他這個法條是違憲的所以最終他可能會去申請實現的去做主意的因為你在國會改革的審議階段你多次的公開批評在野黨的修法是違憲擴權可是當這個中選會駁回我們的公投的時候"},{"start":11019.58,"end":11043.856,"text":"你卻沉默了你卻沒有站出來講說這個部分依法的話是應該不該駁回應該要依法宣證所以我覺得站在這個立場的話我覺得被提名人你好像就是只有在監督在野黨不監督執政黨敢宣出來的就是表現了一個這個好像是側翼的行為而且你的書面也回答了就是中選會是違法但是你的沉默卻證明了你也不敢得罪民進黨所以當有這樣的一個狀況的時候"},{"start":11045.936,"end":11052.514,"text":"我們要 你要如何說服我們這些被審 這個審查委員你未來能夠超然獨立的行使你的職權"},{"start":11053.615,"end":11080.988,"text":"我在2015年的時候我就說我要跟蔡英文劃清界限了這件事情其實報紙都有報導過這次的審查我想你要說服的是這一次被審查的委員他們的想法那另外一點呢就是我們在第一題就有提到的就是有關公投綁大選如何順利的進行那您的回答是說只要把場地租大一點分流做好工作人員增加然後提高行政效率"},{"start":11081.928,"end":11107.307,"text":"亂象 107年的亂象就不會重演這是您這是您回覆的是嗎那你這樣是不是就在說明了就民進黨這幾年說公投這個107年的公投綁大選選務亂是因為這個因為公投綁大選的關係所以你現在就是在證明說當時民進黨這幾年的說法純粹就是為了政治算計而做這樣子的說謊的一個行為嗎"},{"start":11108.928,"end":11132.542,"text":"107年確實當初2018年確實公投榜大選的那一天大選日的混亂狀況這個大家都看得出來是因為選務沒有規劃好嗎所以你才會提出來說接下來你就可以把選務怎麼規劃好所以你剛回答是這樣嗎但是那一天確實就是有十個十個公投案那就是因為表示你的人力還不夠嗎你分流沒有做好嗎這是你在回答中"},{"start":11132.922,"end":11145.873,"text":"可以解決的問題的方式所以說我們這邊是不是也就代表說以前上一次的2018年的公投中選會沒有辦好是因為人的問題是因為人無能而不是因為並大選"},{"start":11148.075,"end":11171.043,"text":"所以你在回答問題我覺得在2018年確實選務工作做得不完善所以說是因為這樣所以這幾年民進黨一直在講說公投綁大選造成選務的混亂其實不是因為公投綁大選事實上是真正能夠展現民意真正讓每個民眾能夠有機會去表達他自己的意志的時間所以我想您在這個整個回覆中也已經"},{"start":11172.271,"end":11200.933,"text":"已經這樣子充分的回答了說您針對公投綁大選覺得這個選務的部分其實的亂象不是因為綁大選而是因為行政座有沒有做好嗎是這樣嗎因為其他國家有些國家確實是沒有綁大選那我認為說如果真的要綁大選我們就必須要把選務工作處理做正因為在你問題的一些言論跟立場事實上你是反對公投綁大選的那當然今天我在研究報告是寫我支持"},{"start":11201.873,"end":11218.841,"text":"對 你在你的 但是你看喔你在這個自由時報的這個對 專欄裡面我寫你是這個空頭綁大選只會毀了公投本質喔這是你以前的說法 對那我們希望說不要因為今天是未來來擔任副主委所以你就改變你過去的說法到底我們要相信哪一個你"},{"start":11219.241,"end":11237.435,"text":"是同意公投綁大選的你還是反對公投綁大選委員因為我們現在法條已經改了我們未來就是要因應一件事情就是要綁大選我們要預防的一件事情就是2018年的那個狀況出現希望您不要是因為為了要擔任這個副主委這個職務而去出賣您原來的一個這個"},{"start":11238.796,"end":11250.606,"text":"自己的一個學術的一個良知還是希望您能夠如果未來您有幸能夠擔任副主委的話一定要秉持公正 超然獨立的立場來行使職權謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝徐益臻委員質詢我們現在有時間要委員質詢"},{"start":11272.05,"end":11299.547,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們被提名人副主委被提名人胡老師胡教授教授首先我想要先分享喔有一個就是被歐巴馬總統任命的第一位女性的這個司法部長哈佛的第一位的女性院長叫做Elena Kagan2010年歐巴馬提名她那這位美國的女性大法官他有一句名言"},{"start":11300.339,"end":11321.068,"text":"我觉得想要分享给大家也许胡教授您也非常的了解这句名言呢他说my politics would be must be have to becompletely separatefrom my judgment意思是我有我个人的政治意识的形态我有我个人的政治"},{"start":11321.795,"end":11342.64,"text":"形象或是我的政治主張但是這跟我的判決是完全兩碼子事他是完全會抽離的當他成為大法官的那一天他勢必要專業的去判準他的每一個判決而且依據憲法所以他的politics每個人有自己的politics"},{"start":11343.18,"end":11361.605,"text":"我有您有每一個委員都有但是當大家被提名成為中選會的委員未來渴望上任的時候請切記超越黨派超越個人的政治意識形態首先合法是必要的我相信胡教授非常同意這位Elena Kagan她的主張"},{"start":11362.375,"end":11391.324,"text":"其实也是物资要我个人的主张所以说下一页我刚刚在垂询这个主委被提名人游云龙先生的时候我也提到成功选务的三要素就是公正效率跟便民而中选会委员的四要件独立专业公正跟守线守法守线守法非常的重要唯有回到守线守法的基准我们才能够超越自己的politics"},{"start":11391.804,"end":11415.299,"text":"自己的政治意識的型態您同意嗎同意那麼在首先守法的這個範圍裡頭我對於剛剛因為時間有限游盈隆被提名人主委的被提名人他一直長期在論述的他個人認為這個罷免是災難的這件事情我尊重他的言論自由但是如果今天"},{"start":11416.658,"end":11443.921,"text":"成為中選會未來要獨立行使職權而且是首先守法的主委的時候回歸憲法的精神就非常重要憲法第17條所規範的人民有選舉罷免創制復決之權這是中華民國的憲法所以人民依據憲法所提出的罷免我希望過去的游盈隆學者跟未來的游盈隆主委"},{"start":11444.406,"end":11452.882,"text":"他的主張勢必要首先合法要脫離他個人的politics那您怎麼看這個命題呢您怎麼看待人民發起的大罷免"},{"start":11453.547,"end":11481.209,"text":"包委員我這個意見其實跟委員一樣但是我不要我其實某些方面也是認為說罷免制度其實在很多國家現在目前其實是被檢討的但是我們確實在憲法17條就寫著我們有罷免的權利這個是我們沒有辦法去否定的一件事情因為它寫在憲法裡面人民委員會跑來跟你講說我就可以罷免誰所以說首先守法很重要"},{"start":11482.757,"end":11511.603,"text":"個人作為學者的身份可以有自己的政治主張但一旦被提名成為國家的中選會的委員的時候首先手法就是重要的基準請尊重人民依據憲法所發動的基本公民權而我更要說大罷免是人民發動的而大惡罷才是國民黨發動的吳斯堯我本人就是受害者就是當事人我到現在還是中華民國史上被罷免者"},{"start":11512.093,"end":11531.774,"text":"的最高被偽造連署的份數2674份這份記錄負面的記錄還標記在我身上我非常的遺憾這是被發動大惡霸一方用違法的方式來僭越了來踐踏了憲法珍貴的人民父權我要在這裡提出"},{"start":11532.702,"end":11544.919,"text":"下一頁剛剛提到不再急投票我也都說即便要變名也要讓公正選舉跟選舉的效率不打折所以大家都有共識公投先行下一頁"},{"start":11546.007,"end":11572.514,"text":"各縣市政府有這樣的共識選務機關有這樣的共識所以請支持行政院的版本下一頁那回到這一頁就是說公投綁大選2018年的選務混亂只有2成8的人民同意而高達6成9的人民不滿意這就告訴我們公投綁大選需要有很好的機制配套未來好現在立法院修法通過"},{"start":11573.334,"end":11596.12,"text":"未來可能公投綁大選會再上路但是選務機關的責任就是維持它的運行不會混亂不會造成人民在選舉投票行使的不便利性那我就要問來下一頁您個人確實有主張但是我認為這個論述還是要再精確一點"},{"start":11597.202,"end":11611.739,"text":"依據公投法第10條中選會就主管機關對於不管人民發動的罷免對不起人民發動的公投或者是立法院發動的公投你還是必須去去審核他是不是符合法律跟憲法的規範對不對"},{"start":11613.137,"end":11636.784,"text":"我是認為他還是要有初步的審核那如果有問題就直接讓他去憲法法庭去做但是現在謝謝你提供未來立法院可能在修法的一個方向但目前並沒有您所說的這個條文就是說如果在中選會在認定在審核上的判準有所異議應當由憲法法庭來做最終的審議這是"},{"start":11638.504,"end":11654.279,"text":"未來法律所沒有的而這可能也會衍生另外的問題因為憲法法庭在審議釋憲的過程還有一定的程序那人民所發動他的對於部分的主張或是立法院的公投案本身也許在時程上沒有辦法等"},{"start":11655.34,"end":11682.896,"text":"這也會有其他衍生的問題但回到現在的法律的規範如果公投綁大選要讓他能夠不至於造成選務的混亂就是我們必須精確的讓合法首先的公投案才能上路不是嗎某些方面是否則從107年到115年我調閱了中選會的資料人民發動的公投案有69案您知道中選會駁回多少案嗎"},{"start":11683.872,"end":11711.259,"text":"不知道35案成立的34案換言之有一半的比例中選會的這個把關還是需要的因為他需要在首先合法的規範公投法第二條就規範了全國性公投跟地方性公投都有適用的要件而且他要符合憲法規定所以在人民發動的公投案裡頭從107年到15年有一半以上經過中選會的把關"},{"start":11713.479,"end":11724.585,"text":"有一半成立一半駁回這會避免了過多的公投你沒有去審核他是不是合法合憲你也必須去把關否則公投綁大選天啊2018年那種噩夢幾十案又來了同樣的立法院的公投案"},{"start":11732.748,"end":11745.422,"text":"立法院的公投案也是要守憲合法所以就像我說的用公投法的修正來推翻憲法的解釋是可以的嗎是可以的嗎"},{"start":11745.953,"end":11767.069,"text":"我覺得這個會觸犯到法治國原則的要求所以我是建議我非常理解您在法律上的一些理解但我認為發言要非常的嚴謹我也希望社會不要錯誤的解讀副主委您認為未來委員針對公投法是否合法合憲合規完全沒有審核把關的權利這非常危險"},{"start":11769.651,"end":11796.629,"text":"你在審核的不是政治的意識形態而是它有沒有符合國家公投的制度的法律的授權跟憲法的授權 您同意嗎同意我給您再最後一次去更正調整您的說法好嗎對於未來如果您當選通過立法院的同意權針對人民發動的公投案跟立法院所發動的公投案您認為中選會獨立機關要進行什麼樣子的把關我認為的把關都是屬於最低限度的把關"},{"start":11797.949,"end":11825.206,"text":"最低限度的不要過分的去干涉我們整個議案裡面內容避免中選會過度的逾越這件事情但是我想最低的限度的要求其實應該是可以達成的守法守憲這就是我們共同的底線好嗎依法行使職權我提醒所有的被提名人沒有政治意識形態而是依法守憲做我們該做的事情這樣你就能夠有很強的底氣不受政治所威脅"},{"start":11826.021,"end":11828.103,"text":"好嗎我們一起加油謝謝胡教授謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳斯亞委員質詢我們現在稱召之委員"},{"start":11847.268,"end":11872.119,"text":"多謝主席有請副主委被提名人 胡教授胡教授 雖然有委員有提到但是我對於您曾經投書媒體認為這個公學綁大頭會讓這個公投認為政黨這個對決的工具那甚至就是喪失了這個公投的這個本質這件事我還是要再請教你請問您現在對於公投綁大選還是這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":11872.719,"end":11881.28,"text":"我會認為如果可以的話讓它其實是不同天其實是一個可以的決定的選擇但是我們現在是要面對的問題是"},{"start":11882.594,"end":11902.115,"text":"法條已經修過了他就是要同天投票但是胡教授我了解你認為公投綁大選可能會讓政黨來主導這個公投議題造成公投失焦可是我的想法剛好跟你相反公投基本上這個公投綁大選基本上是強迫政黨或政治人物他必須他不能迴避他必須針對這個議題去做他的主張或是表態"},{"start":11905.518,"end":11928.325,"text":"那就是說讓選民也能夠有機會知道這個參選人他對於這個議題的想法跟態度根據這個議題他來做出他的選舉的決定換句話說您擔心的是這個公投會影響這個政黨會影響公投可是我的看法剛好是相反的我認為是人民做主的公投"},{"start":11929.125,"end":11936.997,"text":"反而會去影響這個政黨因為我相信台灣選民的數字是越來越高啊他們不見得是根據顏色去投票他們會根據議題看議題然後就來做這個選擇胡教授您贊同我的說法嗎我贊同"},{"start":11944.249,"end":11958.475,"text":"那過去的經驗就是我想你也非常清楚這個單獨舉行的公投他的投票率非常低資訊流通是有限的那結果往往被高度動員反而有可能讓政黨更容易去去做主導"},{"start":11959.936,"end":11979.407,"text":"綁大選你至少可以讓參與率是提高的參與率是提高讓公投的結果更能夠去反映整體選民的整體意志那您剛剛也一再提到修法已經通過了那我認為今年年底的地方選舉很可能很可能就是同時會舉辦公投那我要請問"},{"start":11980.627,"end":12000.643,"text":"這個胡教授因為您過去是反對的當然你現在要尊重這個法律已經通過的事實可是您能夠如實的去執行立法院通過的修法嗎你怎麼樣說服立法院還有台灣人民說你會按照這個修法你會公正如實的去把選務辦好你怎麼來說服"},{"start":12001.263,"end":12026.246,"text":"包委員我們在2018年因為公投綁大選的混亂之後因為當天有10個公投案確實造成一些混亂其實中選會在這邊其實針對整體的選務有做過改革所以在分流制度上面來講其實是已經達成了所以只要公投的案件數不會太多的話我相信其實當天可以秩序其實是可以被掌控的"},{"start":12028.647,"end":12046.276,"text":"我們是擔心說您會不會如實我會如實去辦好這件事情你的主張 我也同意你個人的主張跟這個作為有時候是可以分開的但是你的責任就是要遵守你的責任我想請教你對不在籍投票的看法民眾黨所提的不在籍投票其實是限於台灣島內 國內"},{"start":12048.697,"end":12067.288,"text":"這個移轉投票我們希望讓這個事實上你過去參與的時代力量目前還是也是這樣主張的請問胡教授您現在是支持國內移轉投票嗎我支持國內移轉投票你支持移轉投票這樣我們可以幫助就業就學的因素而不用這個周遮勞頓回到這個戶籍地來投票那但是"},{"start":12071.57,"end":12099.509,"text":"目前不再去投票是多數國家的一個做法連這個中南亞國家包括印尼菲律賓他們都做了那你知道前年印尼大選我們台灣的警察出來幫助幫助這個這個秩序的維安所以這個是我是覺得很丟臉我們可以幫助別的國家結果我們到目前為止還不允許還不允許我們的國民能夠做這個這個移轉這個投票所以我想說是剛剛胡教授您說您是支持的"},{"start":12100.45,"end":12104.782,"text":"那我們法過了以後 你也會按照這個去辦理對不對我們"},{"start":12106.041,"end":12130.624,"text":"立法院法律通過之後中選會會依據立法院所通過的選罷法等相關法規或公民投票法來處理我希望吳教授能夠遵守法律因為我們現在看太多期行政院長沒有遵守法律立法院通過的法律把它視為空氣形同空氣那我再想請教你一件事受刑人權利有民間團體認為非常關注受刑人跟羞辱人的投票權"},{"start":12131.525,"end":12159.825,"text":"那過去中情會認為根本不可能在在監投票那這等於完全剝奪了受刑人跟收容人的他這個憲法賦予的權利那我知道胡教授您在11月去年你也主持過在收容人投票權研討會擔任這個主持人胡教授你認為收容人跟受刑人有沒有投票權我先問你有沒有投票權有投票權只要他們沒有被褫奪公認他們就有投票權那如果有你要怎麼落實呢"},{"start":12160.492,"end":12175.252,"text":"我覺得在投開票所的設置上面來講我們因為要兼顧到公開化以及安全的問題這個部分其實我覺得不管是中選會或者法務部其實應該更努力來解決這問題因為他們有些人不是不在急有些人其實急就在監鎖"},{"start":12176.894,"end":12202.171,"text":"你提到的還是技術面問題嘛你在歐洲嘛歐洲他們就是很多人就有很多國家他就設了這個在間投票嘛這個你們你過去所屬的時代力量他們也是一直用這樣做例子嘛所以胡教授你認為是可行的嗎我認為可行這一次就可以辦了嗎年底的選舉就可以辦了嗎這個我不確定這個可能要跟幕僚機關以及各省市選委會來辦但是從我的觀點來講我一直都認為這是可以做的"},{"start":12206.155,"end":12217.698,"text":"可以做就要去做啊我也會去從我的觀點我也會去推行這件事情謝謝謝謝吳教授謝謝我們感謝陳昭芝委員質詢現在中途我們不需要休息繼續開會因為現在12點了在這裡我們鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":12248.117,"end":12265.225,"text":"福教授好原住民選舉前的困境沒有聽過吧我有聽過原住民議題我其實也有熟悉謝謝你的關注秘密投票"},{"start":12266.994,"end":12290.328,"text":"原住民很多的選舉沒有秘密投票的一個情形雖然憲法規定的很明確無記名投票是方法行之但是因為原住民從原鄉到都會區工作的非常多然後遷积的也很多"},{"start":12291.263,"end":12319.099,"text":"所以相關的這些事實上在都會期原住民的人口數已經達到50%有社會籍的已經達到50%左右所以這樣的一個情形之下一個投票所只有一個人的就有以平地原住民來講就有966人一個投票所兩個人的以平地原住民講來說就是1034"},{"start":12321.127,"end":12345.306,"text":"如果包括三個人的總共有2900多將近3000人那我們看山地原住民山地原住民也是一樣也有類似這樣子情形一到三人的總共有3235人所以他投票給誰一開票就知道他投票給誰所以他就變成說"},{"start":12347.805,"end":12365.896,"text":"會考慮是不是要不要去投票會有這樣的一個情形所以這樣的一個情形怎麼樣去保障憲法徵修條文第十條第十二項保障原住民的政治參與政治參與除了參政權之外還有選舉權選舉權本席透過質詢請這個中選會要這個"},{"start":12375.939,"end":12400.956,"text":"解決秘密投票 質詢了非常非常的多次因為事實上是可以 不修法其實是可以的以公職人員選舉辦人法第57條第三項 原住民公職人員選舉得徵走實際情形 單獨設置投票所或在選舉區內辦理投票"},{"start":12403.789,"end":12430.869,"text":"事實上只有規定 但是一直沒有辦法落實所以本席不得不修法所以今年 去年12月26號三讀通過為保障原住民秘密投票權益 應單獨設置投票然後不受第17條第一項應在戶籍地投票之限制當初在修法的討論的時候中選會還是不支持"},{"start":12432.211,"end":12461.103,"text":"所以這樣的部分如果這個副教授能夠擔任副主委或者是其他的被提名人也能夠擔任委員希望落實這次的一個修正的條例可以嗎 可以接下來談不在己投票原住民族的不在己投票事實上最可以先實施的是"},{"start":12462.153,"end":12483.501,"text":"立法委員因為原住民的立法委員的選區是台澎金所以跟總統一起選舉所以原住民要實施不在籍投票是應該最優先來辦理是可以執行的因為我們每一個投票所都有我們的選民"},{"start":12485.27,"end":12505.878,"text":"都有投票所了就是移轉投票就很容易了因為每個台北市每個都有原住民的投票所所以這個部分是可以先實施的因為沒有實施所以造成我們原住民與非原住民的投票率的差異你想想看以3D原住民來講我們就講第11屆立委"},{"start":12507.546,"end":12535.312,"text":"差距13.83%投票率平地原住民是7%多這樣的一個落差就是因為太遠了我們看這個台灣地圖一個住台北市的鄉親他要到蘭嶼投票回去他的戶籍地就很遠不要說蘭嶼就到屏東或是到台東都非常非常的遠而且還要到山上"},{"start":12536.531,"end":12563.215,"text":"不是到了台東火車站之後 還要到山上所以這個原住民族的不在籍投票更是有它的一個需要性我看了這個印尼 在台灣我們的外勞 印尼的外勞在台灣都是 都投票所以在台灣投票在台灣還不只 不是只有在台北市每個縣市都有投票所"},{"start":12564.498,"end":12587.33,"text":"像這樣他們都可以受得到這樣的一個情形我們確實做不到我們真的是要加油所以這個部分也希望我們這個胡教授以及各位被提名人到了中選會之後能夠優先支持嚴肅民主的不在己投票 可以嗎可以 沒問題謝謝我們感謝鄭天才委員資訊"},{"start":12593.496,"end":12610.125,"text":"咱家習星雲委員 習星雲委員不在咱家省花卉 省花卉委員不在葉延芝 葉延芝 葉延芝不在"},{"start":12619.888,"end":12635.819,"text":"在這被提名人胡柏彥先生所說明和質詢的都已經結束完畢委員習新英提出書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":12641.357,"end":12649.721,"text":"再來我們比提名人的吳博言先生可以先離席可以先離席我們現在的休訓五分鐘"},{"start":12666.591,"end":12677.897,"text":"我們繼續國分前後繼續進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明價值詢問謝謝大家辛苦了"},{"start":12807.111,"end":12807.234,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":13060.815,"end":13066.638,"text":"來 繼續開會 進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明和詢答請黃文玲女士說明主席"},{"start":13077.857,"end":13092.868,"text":"各位委員各位在場的先進大家午安大家好我是黃文玲那這次非常榮幸的能夠受到這個行政院提名為這次的中選會委員的被提名人"},{"start":13093.368,"end":13105.019,"text":"那今天來這裡呢也是要跟大家來分享就是說我其實民國83年就考上律師那一直擔任律師到現在那在期間呢在2012年到"},{"start":13108.842,"end":13129.315,"text":"14年的時候擔任第八屆的立法委員那有短暫的時間在立法院那時候也是在內政委員會那期間呢我在過去從事這個律師的職務其實有辦理非常多的這個選罷法的案件包括會選案當選人這個資格不私認的案子還有"},{"start":13130.035,"end":13143.805,"text":"就是譬如說有假訊息的案件等等所以在實務上或許能夠提供給未來的中選會一些建言當然我本身在2004年的時候還有2014跟18也都參與過"},{"start":13148.548,"end":13168.503,"text":"立法委員的選舉及彰化縣長的選舉在選舉的過程當中當然就會有非常多的選務的紛爭我想我們主席也是身經百戰大家都也很清楚就是選舉可能會遇到的一些糾紛我覺得這一次的被提名人裡面"},{"start":13169.444,"end":13185.009,"text":"其實跟上一屆的感覺上好像比較多的出入因為上一屆我看實務界的律師有好幾位那這一次的被提名人裡面大部分都是學者專家而且都是憲政的學者專家那實務界的好像律師就只有我一人"},{"start":13185.669,"end":13207.825,"text":"那我希望說如果未來有機會擔任中選會的委員我們除了要讓中選會要保持他的獨立性中立性及公正性之外還要維護他的專業跟可信賴性那當然在這個過程之中選務的過程之中確實有非常多的可能會"},{"start":13208.525,"end":13224.542,"text":"涉及到紛爭的部分會影響到這個選務工作人員的部分所以未來如果有機會的話我們也是應該要來維護我們選務人員的尊嚴那以上那希望說就是能夠對這個中選會能夠有所貢獻謝謝謝謝 感謝說明我們這裡黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":13240.428,"end":13264.453,"text":"謝謝主席 我請被提名人請讓我們被提名人委員好 好久不見我稱呼您黃律師好黃律師很高興在這邊看到您尤其是您的父親是以前非常受敬重的中選會的主委我想中選會也好或者是任何選委會的委員都需要"},{"start":13265.373,"end":13282.334,"text":"移植相關的公正跟獨立性那民主選舉的過程裡面不是只有最後一天的結果我想過程很重要過程的公平包括更多的所謂的不孝方法或者是說有一些不正當的方式造成了選舉的不公"},{"start":13283.188,"end":13300.472,"text":"那我個人比較我看到你的問卷大概到大部分都有回答不過我今天要問的是根據有關選舉過程裡面其實最大的一塊叫做媒體不公媒體不公的部分在各個法律其都規定得非常清楚總統副總統選罷法46條還有公職人員選罷法49條在廣播電視"},{"start":13306.013,"end":13331.728,"text":"也從事選舉或罷免相關議題的論證新聞報導或邀請候選人罷免案提議人或被罷免人的參加節目要公正公平處理不可以有無正當理由的差別待遇但是這麼多年來我相信你也選過去我們只要是非所謂主流媒體的支持的對象大概都會在很多媒體中被消失"},{"start":13332.581,"end":13355.393,"text":"包括在我想去年的總統大選也非常的清楚2024的總統大選非常清楚的是某個藍媒 綠媒現在已經台灣人都有一定的既定的印象你會看到有一些藍媒看不到綠色的綠媒看不到藍色的那更糟糕的像台灣民眾黨我們是中間所以兩邊都看不到"},{"start":13356.834,"end":13369.631,"text":"這個部分我們曾經也提出過很嚴肅的控訴那NCC有回答說查無證據啦我們也有檢舉但是回去要給中選會所以我們就不禁要去查到在101年"},{"start":13370.888,"end":13393.858,"text":"在105年其實中選會都曾經對於媒體沒有邀請平衡報導或者是沒有邀請到這些所有的參選人而開罰的紀錄我想請問您您對第一媒體在選舉過程中沒有依法行事第二個105年到現在已經快10年了沒有塵埃任何一個媒體處罰"},{"start":13394.898,"end":13409.756,"text":"所以反而我們會懷念您父親當時當中選會主委的時候我們還有道德勇氣對媒體做相關的裁罰如果有這樣的案子我想知道您的想法跟您對於選舉公平應該在媒體上面怎麼樣來維護中選會的獨立性跟公正性"},{"start":13414.597,"end":13440.218,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想剛剛你提到這個部分其實我深受感同因為我其實我在2014年到18年這兩次彰化縣長選舉我就是以無黨籍的身份參選但是確實是媒體就是全部都把我們的新聞全部都消失被消失掉所以我可以感受到就是說就是選委會在這個"},{"start":13441.319,"end":13462.866,"text":"辦理選舉的過程之中其實它是必須要秉持公正客觀的態度而且其專業的部分那至於就是特定的媒體那他們是不是可以就針對這個部分就是被選舉人就是沒有做公平的報導的部分是不是應該裁罰的部分其實我記得我那時候有去抗議過"},{"start":13463.806,"end":13493.446,"text":"但是似乎是好像沒有作用因為他們認為那個是NCC的所以這就是我們今天中選會其實在101年曾經罰過當時是華氏在政見發表會之後沒有播出某個候選人的會後記者會被裁罰了20萬基本的該有的所以我認為中選會應該要有基本的就是法律的價值它的價值就是要維護選舉的公正公平"},{"start":13493.886,"end":13523.232,"text":"然後每個這個候選人都能夠在這個媒體上能夠被揭露我想大家都可能很清楚的知道這個公正性的確在現今的台灣媒體環境裡面做不到但是我相信中選會應該要做到中選會如果中選會還有道德勇氣的話我們十年來都沒有成過半子案子但是105年那時候還有某些節目只邀請特地的候選人還有"},{"start":13523.832,"end":13550.867,"text":"只邀請某些特定的沒有給予其他選區同樣的候選人相同的機會就被裁罰了40萬跟20萬這是我想中選會委員必須要秉持的一個中正的立場所以他們那個時候的中選會委員可能有道德勇氣才會做這樣的一個裁量所以我們也期待我們未來有機會擔任委員的話也希望能夠秉持這樣一個立場是 只要依法就好公平就好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13554.336,"end":13580.236,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝黃珊珊委員北提名人黃文玲女士在說明和詢問已經結束我們北提名人黃文玲女士可以先行離席我們休訓五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":13600.777,"end":13611.381,"text":"謝謝大家的收看"},{"start":13632.579,"end":13645.603,"text":"謝謝大家謝謝大家"},{"start":13673.537,"end":13673.557,"text":"來,請坐"},{"start":13678.372,"end":13702.382,"text":"那個要不要就是因為我們就就是就我們一個人一個人這樣看他的狀況但是我覺得就是"},{"start":13704.722,"end":13723.253,"text":"我覺得 我等一下去跟他溝通好了因為我們 因為目前的話我們諮詢人就我們諮詢人可以拖八分 等一下還要等一下我算一下 四分多 八分多"},{"start":13735.708,"end":13757.381,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13768.275,"end":13783.93,"text":"喔 可以可以 因為報告人是八分鐘 然後兩分鐘對 對 對 說明大概幾分鐘就三分鐘兩分鐘 沒關係 因為我也在三樓 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13791.954,"end":13805.708,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13820.623,"end":13850.452,"text":"然後再下一個說明完再下一個所以它還有一遍大概就是這樣我會聽到我前面講的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話對 只要聽到過癮的一句話"},{"start":13866.325,"end":13866.365,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13890.919,"end":13899.364,"text":"來 我們繼續開會我們繼續進行被提名人李立忠先生的說明和詢問請中選會委員被提名人李立忠先生說明"},{"start":13914.861,"end":13932.458,"text":"王主席還有各位委員還有我們張秘書長還有各位在座的先生跟女士我是李李仲那很高興這次被我們行政院提名為中央選舉委員會委員的被提名人那我在此報告那我們都知道民主"},{"start":13933.839,"end":13958.77,"text":"選舉制度乃是憲政秩序與民主制度的一個核心那它的公正性跟可信賴性跟穩定性直接關係人民對我們台灣民主的一個信賴的關鍵中央選舉委員會肩負了選舉與公民投票的規劃執行與監督的重任"},{"start":13959.935,"end":13986.054,"text":"其專業性 獨立性跟依法行政對於民主制度之健全運作具有關鍵的意義唐友信擔任中央選舉委員會一職個人將超越黨派以維護憲法精神確保選舉公平強化制度信賴為最高自我期許"},{"start":13987.659,"end":14002.521,"text":"然而 擔任中央選舉委員會委員並非權力之所在而是責任與信賴之所繼本人之抱負在於以專業 理性與公正"},{"start":14003.78,"end":14020.969,"text":"首先合法協助台灣建構一個經得起政治競爭社會檢驗與歷史評價的選舉制度為我們民主發展盡一份長期而穩定的力量以上報告謝謝各位"},{"start":14024.705,"end":14042.041,"text":"謝謝感謝說明因為沒有委員長去接訊所以我們的李立中的說明到這裡 提名人李立中先生可以先行離席我們休訓兩分鐘謝謝"},{"start":14047.498,"end":14057.107,"text":"有機會這樣議席議席要不然坐在那裡聽一些大家留意的意見這樣也很好謝謝 辛苦辛苦有機會這樣"},{"start":14075.623,"end":14092.375,"text":"哎呀"},{"start":14100.401,"end":14112.586,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":14136.376,"end":14144.378,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14171.233,"end":14187.669,"text":"來 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生之說明跟詢問我們現在中選會委員被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生說明"},{"start":14196.281,"end":14208.906,"text":"主席 秘書長 麥委員 還有全體的女士們 先生們我是福音科技大學蘇嘉鴻蘇老師"},{"start":14210.917,"end":14237.499,"text":"我在這個學校任教已經有32年的歷史在去年因為種種的機緣巧合被推薦被提名所以有這個機會來這邊接受大家的提問我在這裡想要講兩件事情第一件事情"},{"start":14239.857,"end":14263.016,"text":"從早上到現在所有的委員們對被提名人的提問大概聚焦在幾件事情上面大概不外就是公投綁大選以及不在籍投票另外還有其他的問題不管怎麼樣這都是一個值得追求的"},{"start":14265.632,"end":14269.512,"text":"未來方向 它是一個值得追求的未來方向"},{"start":14270.58,"end":14296.194,"text":"但是我們必須要很誠實的去面對中選會現在當前的行政量能未來的考驗其實都在於未來的中選會能不能在自己的行政量能上面有所擴張 有所深化來因應這些挑戰"},{"start":14298.404,"end":14315.497,"text":"所以在一個值得追求的方向它代表了一種進步的價值但與此同時我們對於中選會的目前的行政量能卻沒有與時俱增的一種調整這完全是不現實的"},{"start":14317.079,"end":14342.805,"text":"那中選會的組織編制據說是57個然後預算編制是55個總之他不會超過60個人那地方選委會是負責選務工作所以不管是境外的或者是這個省委的啦等等的這些各式各樣的挑戰"},{"start":14344.113,"end":14364.228,"text":"那麼中選會其實是沒有辦法回應這個現代的時代需求跟社會的這樣的殷切的期待所以在這種情況之下我認為就是我要講的第二點中選會的委員們應該是要專任的目前是無幾職"},{"start":14368.666,"end":14376.903,"text":"那NCC跟這個公平會呢都是專任的那這個以兼任的"},{"start":14377.697,"end":14401.874,"text":"兼職的 無幾職的委員要來因應這些剛剛講過的重重的挑戰實在是分身乏術了 實在是分身乏術幸好此時此刻的審查會是在這個禮拜如果是在上週上上週的話是學期最後一週要辦這個"},{"start":14404.127,"end":14430.513,"text":"期末考 要簽考 要印考卷什麼的怎麼可能來呢要把本職工作薪水顧好所以這麼工作 這個工作這麼兼具對委員來講 確實無幾值的兼職這是一個很奇特的現象所以我們必須要讓獨立機關的獨立性因為委員的踴躍性獲得保障"},{"start":14431.383,"end":14459.479,"text":"那這個機關才能夠因應未來的這麼一些更多的一個挑戰那麼第二件事情就是說那麼有關於這個選舉罷免的訴訟選罷法的這個訴訟目前都還是在民事法院裡面它明明是公法訴訟那這個部分我們可能在未來也可以再重新做個調整跟思考以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":14462.782,"end":14467.985,"text":"謝謝感謝首名我們這裡定期麥一貞委員質詢謝謝主席 有請蘇老師蘇老師謝謝老師好 真的辛苦了"},{"start":14491.857,"end":14520.191,"text":"所以我們說想要請問一下因為現在的選舉制度你有說了就是憲政由內政部主管選務由中選會負責的分立設計原意在於落實責任政治就是維護選舉的中立但你也指出實務上因為全職的交"},{"start":14521.171,"end":14538.448,"text":"交換 所以呢 往往就是導致改革就是遲締甚至使中選會受制於行政關係難以回應高度流動社會於新型的風險所以呢 我想要請教兩點第一 在維持分立的架構下 你認為"},{"start":14545.695,"end":14569.137,"text":"中選會應清楚定位以依法執行選務的獨立機關而非非推上政治的正義第一線第二若短期仍維持分立體制是否通過交錯的任期專任化外部專家參與度透明等的"},{"start":14569.797,"end":14581.743,"text":"制度設計就是逐步強化中選會獨立性與公信力我們要的就是可以獨立作業嗎 這樣子的一個目標"},{"start":14583.439,"end":14599.071,"text":"是的 我原您的提問通通都是我的答案我就是肯定的很好 所以在我們的問卷裡面也有回覆指出說選舉權不是刑"},{"start":14602.413,"end":14627.282,"text":"形式的權利 而是國家必要積極保障的基本權 當人民因為求學啊就業啊 或者服役或職群無法返回戶籍投票的時候 我國家就是要提供替代制度 實質上就是就限制其他投票並"},{"start":14629.623,"end":14651.214,"text":"對年輕人還有流動人口造成不平等所以我們你認為在就是本人到場還有身份查驗也秘密投票的前提下國內移轉投票在實質上不是便利措施是"},{"start":14652.652,"end":14679.282,"text":"國家例行憲法保障參政的必要制度你也強調說國內轉移投票不同於資訊或者電子投票風險可控不宜被過度上網為國安問題那麼有立法完成不在籍投票的法治化的那個就是投票的法治化"},{"start":14680.12,"end":14692.096,"text":"你是否認為中選會在制度設計就是執行上應如何就是權力就是最大為原則從如何讓更合格"},{"start":14694.1,"end":14719.586,"text":"選民安全投票出發因為現在很多地方就是各國等於是說印尼 菲律賓他們都是可以就是在台灣在投票但是我在這邊強調的是說我們的民眾黨說的就是在台灣 在台灣 在台灣是移轉投票而已所以你覺得是說這樣子我們能做得到嗎"},{"start":14722.008,"end":14742.545,"text":"以目前国内的移转投票我认为中选会可能步步为赢也是步步为赢赢得胜利的赢这件事情我觉得中选会可能还可以勉强的"},{"start":14745.747,"end":14770.143,"text":"跟上社會的需求但是如果我們繼續做民主深化的話我們還要再做其他更大的發展的話以目前我再強調一次我所了解到的中選會的行政量能是做不到的所以必須要有所調整才能夠因應時代的變遷回應社會的需求 以上"},{"start":14771.363,"end":14797.666,"text":"中選會應該做得到現在我們是台灣是科技國家所以這個是說應該要做得到不是說還在不一定做得到我覺得這個是已經我們台灣已經應該要做得到的所以接下來我想要請教一下因為現在就是兩岸人民的關係明定大陸地區人民在"},{"start":14798.867,"end":14822.203,"text":"涉及滿十年還有我是外配也是滿十年就是依法登記為公職候選人但是立法則憲法徵定條文裡面第十一條所做出了特別規範但近期引發就是行政機關用國籍法張大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14828.787,"end":14854.174,"text":"人民比例外國人額外要求放棄所謂的外國國籍形同就是以行政解釋架空的特別法所以你在這邊也是就是你說理解所以你也是說依法依法就是涉及滿十年原則是大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14854.514,"end":14857.955,"text":"參政權是否以憲法保障的基本權應用優先因為在我們的兩岸條款這邊就是說優先應用所以排除國籍法的類型就是來去適用所以在目前我們的部會"},{"start":14875.522,"end":14892.814,"text":"法律見解出現就十分之甚至有行政官員公開宣稱說陸配參政權已死的情況下你是否認為說中選會應依特別法明文辦理選務而非"},{"start":14895.456,"end":14897.719,"text":"而非就是被動承受這樣子可能違憲的行政解釋以免就是實質剝奪人民的參政權報告委員"},{"start":14909.515,"end":14936.473,"text":"台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例相對於國籍法民法諸多的相關涉及的法律目前就是一種特別法優先適用於普通法的這樣的一種法律適用關係這是沒有疑問的如果啦在這個特別法的跟普通法的這種優先適用關係不成立的話"},{"start":14937.577,"end":14960.613,"text":"那大陸地區人民來談 繼承這個遺產的上限兩百兩百萬可能就會怎麼樣呢那就不用遵守了 回到民法它的印記份或者是什麼樣的那都很可能超過兩百萬所以這個特別法的問題 這是第一個第二個 這個叫做期待可能性"},{"start":14961.734,"end":14988.463,"text":"如果中國大陸是沒有放棄國籍的這樣的一種法治的話強要我們的大陸配偶回去大陸去放棄國籍在客觀上沒有其他可能性強人民之所難以此來剝奪人民的參政權這個我不能認同 以上報告"},{"start":14989.042,"end":15012.56,"text":"好 謝謝 再給我一分鐘謝謝主席 謝謝我們的老師給我們的說明所以我常講的就是說我們不要因出勝地來去決定我們在台灣的我們拿身份證是跟我們國民一模模一樣樣參選也是一模模一樣樣的當選也是一模模一樣樣不要再拿出勝地來去"},{"start":15013.741,"end":15020.589,"text":"就是在台灣努力的人所以在最後就是請教我們的教授你在問卷中也多次強調選舉制度的核心不在政治操作的便利而在"},{"start":15029.36,"end":15032.201,"text":"憲法持續的穩定以及人民參政權是否能對實質保障在這樣子的一個關鍵問題你是否未來擔任中選會的委員在面對高度的政治爭議或跨部會法律的見解的分支時"},{"start":15050.348,"end":15068.241,"text":"你將如何具體拿捏中選會作為獨立機關的分機確保制度解釋回到法律明定性以憲政的原則真正守住民主制度與人民參政權的長期保障是 報告委員那個超越黨派依法行政公正公開 以上報告"},{"start":15078.763,"end":15092.09,"text":"好 太好了 謝謝希望未來就是要看你要讓我們的國家正常運轉讓保障我們的人民 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 感謝麥真委員質詢南北提名人蘇嘉鳳先生的說明跟質詢都已經結束"},{"start":15105.802,"end":15114.647,"text":"被提名人舒嘉宏先生可以先行離席休息兩分鐘 謝謝大家"},{"start":15143.251,"end":15145.052,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":15153.558,"end":15173.178,"text":"因為是很方便,現在我們是在滿國之大地,很方便,因為如果東南歐,那是一個很舒服的地方,很舒服的地方"},{"start":15173.899,"end":15198.916,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":15204.111,"end":15209.814,"text":"慢慢來"},{"start":15241.724,"end":15255.032,"text":"謝謝 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人舒芝喬先生之說明和詢問請中選會的委員被提名人舒芝喬先生說明主席 黃委員各位委員"},{"start":15268.98,"end":15279.649,"text":"張秘書長還有在座各位先進 大家好非常榮幸能夠在這邊接受立法院的審查"},{"start":15283.568,"end":15299.828,"text":"很榮幸被台灣民眾黨推薦然後受行政院提名為中選會的被提名人我目前在東吳大學任教目前是東吳大學政治系的教授我自己的研究專長研究領域是"},{"start":15301.67,"end":15312.881,"text":"憲政體制還有選語制度那對於選語制度事實上有蠻多的這個世界各國選語制度有蠻多的一些觀察跟研究所以我自己個人認為就是說有這個機會有這個榮幸"},{"start":15317.626,"end":15334.906,"text":"如果能夠到中選會來服務的話其實是貢獻我自己的所長所以作為一個學者能夠進行公共服務有這樣的機會其實我是非常覺得是樂觀其成的而且也是覺得很榮幸能夠有機會擔任這樣的工作的"},{"start":15338.98,"end":15356.6,"text":"我對於自己的這個中選會的一個如果說將來能夠有機會能夠擔任中選委員的話我想我對自己的一個自我的定位是超越黨派然後依法行政然後公平公正的性質權雖然我是受台灣民眾黨所推薦但我不是台灣民眾黨的"},{"start":15358.121,"end":15380.522,"text":"政黨的代言人因為做一個中選會這樣的獨立機關我做一個研究憲政憲法的學者其實我對獨立機關本身的一個期許是相當的深厚的所以如果說我真的有機會有榮幸擔任中選會委員的話我想這是我一個對自己的一個非常深切的自我的期待自我期許"},{"start":15381.701,"end":15396.941,"text":"那就是我覺得中選會在過去這幾年來在政治的紛擾當中事實上確實它的公信力跟它的一些它的獨立性似乎受到社會各界的某一些質疑不過其實我還是相當"},{"start":15397.982,"end":15417.982,"text":"程度肯定這個中選會的同仁的在選務工作上的很多的努力那只是說在台灣目前這個朝野的這樣的一個對立情況之下不免會有一些對中選會這個獨立機關的這樣的一個一個政治上的一些批判那我認為就是說強化中選會的"},{"start":15420.203,"end":15442.335,"text":"公信力 獨立性是這個未來中選會要進一步去努力的一個方向那我也希望就是說我未來如果有幸作為一個中選會的委員在這個合一制的運作之下能夠貢獻自己所長然後這個對於這個台灣的民主深化民主鞏固以及這個民主的韌性盡一分心力我想我就簡短報告到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":15445.214,"end":15468.939,"text":"謝謝 感謝說明我們今天定期張祺凱委員質詢家屬教授 主席你先"},{"start":15471.638,"end":15498.671,"text":"所以說今天從游營榮游主委到副主委到目前最熱門的被問到的就是不在即投票了不在即投票游營榮游主委提到的是他贊成可是他要求從公投開始做事實上最近這幾天有看到民進黨立院黨團向前跨了一步立院黨團的幹事長鍾嘉斌講說必要的時候從總統大選都可以開始做"},{"start":15500.814,"end":15516.386,"text":"那我看你回答我們這個問卷你是贊成不再急投票的特別是台灣民眾黨現在提出來版本國內移轉投票有沒有可能 有沒有可能如果你獲得提名完之後我剛剛講的是三個階段"},{"start":15517.492,"end":15534.959,"text":"游英龍公投到了民進黨黨團連總統大選都可以了有沒有可能進來之後如果成功被提名通過這個中選會的這個提名之後進來之後有沒有可能在今年的年底縣市長的投票有可能可以做不在籍投票嗎"},{"start":15536.167,"end":15564.966,"text":"我想謝謝委員那個詢問就是不在於投票現在當然要等那個法律通過嘛所以中選會作為獨立機關最重要值得是依法行政啦所以我是很樂見就是說寫期待就是說這個不在於投票法能夠通過那事實上我覺得目前對於不在於投票的一些疑慮我想確實是存是我想可以肯定的事實上你剛提了一個非常重要依法行政是就是民眾黨這個版本已經提出來了"},{"start":15565.706,"end":15579.747,"text":"如果立法院三讀通過的民眾黨這個版本那就是中選會就在依法 依法憲政嘛 對不對那如果來得及的話就是今年年底的縣市長選舉可能就可以開始做這個台灣民眾黨這個版本而且這個版本"},{"start":15581.65,"end":15607.019,"text":"不是什麼有什麼國安餘力什麼境外勢力介入的他沒有國外也沒有兩岸我們這個界定的就是國內的移轉投票就是你還是要親自要去投跟你有提到說這跟通信投票又不一樣對不對所以執行上應該是沒有問題的那我問你一下因為剛剛有這個委員就回答說中選會的行政量能做不到你覺得做不做得到"},{"start":15608.209,"end":15632.064,"text":"我覺得中選會當然就是他會一個比較謹慎的態度在面對這個事情啦可是我自己會認為就是說如果真的法律已經通過了那中選會當然就是要盡力去配合辦理那我也認為中選會在一定的時間準備之下是應該有一定的準備的量能去推動這件事情的依法行政然後盡快推動是可以"},{"start":15632.484,"end":15661.614,"text":"有機會在年底依法來行政來做的對不對其實是有可能的事實上你是專門研究選舉的日本都已經實施不再舉投票大概二十幾年了二十幾年了我看那個報導上面寫他說日本連在攔戟日本人去攔戟都可以投票他們甚至可以提前投票跟美國都是一樣的南韓也有嘛他們號稱科技大國怎麼我們的技術是有問題的連我們的移工"},{"start":15663.364,"end":15690.604,"text":"在台灣的印尼的移工 菲律賓的移工他們都有投票啊所以老實講我們要趕快去推動要不然真的會被世界上笑啦好 OK這個題希望你以後可以盡力去推動那當然就是可能有些人可能意見會不一樣可是最重要最重要的就是這個法有沒有在最近完成三讀另外我看你的回答裡面有一個非常重要的這個上次總統大選的時候啊有一個非常有名的這個網紅"},{"start":15693.528,"end":15710.901,"text":"愛麗莎莎 她因為轉發了有些民眾有在質疑說是不是有作票結果後來你們中選會就告了她了後來沒有起訴 黃國昌就在問她說中選會到後來一句抱歉都沒說 你怎麼看這樣一個事情"},{"start":15713.269,"end":15734.61,"text":"我想中選會作為一個獨立機關它的基本的做法應該以公開呈現為主要優先的一個選項我想提起訴訟這個是一個比較相對來講我覺得個人來講是一個比較激烈手段呈現把事實呈現不是急於去輕鬆你的態度是這樣所以以後希望中選會不要急著去輕鬆最後問一個問題最要緊的問題"},{"start":15737.886,"end":15753.351,"text":"這個去年引起最大爭議的就是國民黨提了實質廢死的這個公投在中選會被廢掉了你怎麼看這樣一個事情如果你當選了中選會的這個委員之後如果再來提一次這個實質廢死這個案子你會怎麼樣來處理這個案子"},{"start":15757.492,"end":15782.386,"text":"這個問題確實是比較在憲政協議上我覺得是比較有真理的不過我簡單回答就是立法院所提的公投案依照目前這個公投法的規定其實中選會是沒有審查權的所以當立法院真的提了這樣公投案我想中選會我如果說這個案子重新這個同樣發生的話中選會必須依法辦理那只是說確實這個用憲法"},{"start":15783.286,"end":15807.609,"text":"就是公投去推翻憲法判決本身這個事情的這個議題我覺得我作為一個學者我是有一點疑慮的不過作為一個中選會這個獨立機關的角色我認為就是依法行政我想這是最優先的考量中選會去沒收立法院的這個提案那不就變成是太上立法院了對不對 而且你講到一個重點你今天質詢 我覺得你答詢得非常好你都是依法行政在做事情所以如果這個案子如果"},{"start":15808.67,"end":15815.296,"text":"最近又被提出來 請依法行政來做事情不要急於去沒收 好不好好 好 非常謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 我們感謝張之凱委員質詢"},{"start":15828.578,"end":15850.395,"text":"我們繼續經營被提名人蘇志喬先生說明跟詢問都已經結束了在這裡被提名人蘇志喬先生可以先行離席我們休息兩分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":15858.928,"end":15867.874,"text":"一幕,一幕啦,我們要五分啊,改兩分啊,開始啦,前輩,前輩,馬上好,欸,兩分鐘啊,DJ,啊,這樣喔,這個,這個,這個,這個主持人,"},{"start":15891.894,"end":15900.716,"text":"今天等於說對我們來講就是七場啦所以一定要切啦對,對我們來講就是七場"},{"start":15912.664,"end":15925.411,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":15938.533,"end":15939.394,"text":"30秒30秒他有那個壓縮那個時間"},{"start":15967.372,"end":15979.099,"text":"我們繼續進行被提名人陳忠義先生說明及詢問這中選會委員被提名人陳忠義先生說明"},{"start":15990.647,"end":16006.678,"text":"主席 張紅蘿委員 吳啟明委員 在座各位官員我是這次中選委員被提名人陳忠義很榮幸也很高興能夠來立法院來答詢 接受審查"},{"start":16008.834,"end":16031.53,"text":"我想今天坐下來 我是當然 人家說好酒定慢醉不是淡於中宿 那我想今天聽了吳思瑤的選舉創意美學我們很有啟發 也聽到張宏祿委員對選辦法第98條之一虛為欠席戶籍 意圖使人當選五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":16032.23,"end":16044.938,"text":"所以我們都聽到很多委員的寶貴意見我們都會吸收來加以運用那我有能性的通過的話我一定會秉持公正公平獨立專業依法來執行職務謝謝各位 謝謝 以上謝謝 感謝蕭明我們前期的委員長黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在"},{"start":16064.195,"end":16077.851,"text":"比提名人陳忠義先生說明及諮詢已經結束了比提名人陳忠義先生可以先行離席"},{"start":16081.653,"end":16106.042,"text":"本次會議定期的這項跟問出委比提名人的本院委員除了不在場議員全都已經發言完畢 審討結束委員有蘇巧慧 莊瑞雄 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我們就通過"},{"start":16233.151,"end":16246.361,"text":"本院各黨團隊被提名人的主席及四任性所提出的書面問題及行政院"},{"start":16248.015,"end":16269.671,"text":"含糊就被提名人所提出的相關資料據列入紀錄刊登公報審查會到此結束本次議定處理完畢現在散會感謝大家謝謝大家"},{"start":16273.797,"end":16284.501,"text":"現在兩雙腹耶醫生長,謝謝喔辛苦了,辛苦了,辛苦了,辛苦了加油,加油,加油謝謝,謝謝"},{"start":16298.899,"end":16320.981,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167301","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167301","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0b5ec5fbcfced67d6df73f7e1a18259b55c72c672141dad9c672fc13014a68ae47990b0cb07845b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:35:20 - 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行政機關可不可以解釋違憲的問題實際上來講每個行政機關基本上來講都是在依據憲法來做成決定但是呢 最終而言決定有沒有違憲的問題的時候就要變成是大法官那所以說針對這個軍人加薪跟提高警校人員所得替代率的法律是否違憲 其實應該不是行政院長說了算吧"},{"start":252.133,"end":267.826,"text":"應該是要申請這個大法官釋憲由大法官來決定那在還沒有宣判違憲之前是不是就是合乎憲法在您這個法律學者的我覺得這個憲政爭議而言應該要交由大法官來處理但是因為行政院認為他是違憲的"},{"start":271.148,"end":287.53,"text":"行政院認為他是違憲就像定出來的某些制度的立法院也有可能認為他是違憲的你是不是針對這個部分就是只要還沒辦違憲之前就是合乎憲法只要還沒辦還沒有判違憲之前是不是就合乎憲法"},{"start":288.356,"end":294.898,"text":"跟委員報告就是每個行政機關他可能會認為他這個法條是違憲的所以最終他可能會去申請失憲的去做處理的因為你在國會改革的審議階段你多次的公開批評在野黨的修法是違憲擴權可是當這個中選會駁回我們的公投的時候"},{"start":306.661,"end":330.955,"text":"你卻沉默了你卻沒有站出來講說這個部分依法的話是應該不該駁回應該要依法憲政所以我覺得站在這個立場的話我覺得被庭名人你好像就是只有在監督在野黨不監督執政黨敢宣出來的就是表現了一個這個好像是側翼的行為而且你的書面也回答了就是中選會是違法但是你的沉默卻證明了你也不敢得罪民進黨所以當有這樣一個狀況的時候"},{"start":333.018,"end":339.613,"text":"我們要 你要如何說服我們這些被審 這個審查委員你未來能夠超然獨立的行使你的職權"},{"start":340.697,"end":368.082,"text":"我在2015年的時候我就說我要跟蔡英文劃清界限了這件事情其實報紙都有報導過這次的審查我想你要說服的是這一次被審查的委員他們的想法那另外一點呢就是我們在第一題就有提到的就是有關公投綁大選如何順利的進行那您的回答是說只要把場地租大一點分流做好工作人員增加然後提高行政效率"},{"start":369.022,"end":394.391,"text":"亂象107年的亂象就不會重演這是您這是您回覆的是嗎對那你這樣是不是就在說明了說民進黨這幾年說公投這個107年的公投綁大選選務亂是因為這個因為公投綁大選的關係所以你現在就是在證明說當時民進黨這幾年的說法純粹就是為了政治算計而做這樣子的說謊的一個行為嗎"},{"start":396.021,"end":419.638,"text":"107年確實當初2018年確實公投綁大選的那一天大選日的混亂狀況這個大家都看得出來是因為選務沒有規劃好嘛所以你才會提出來說接下來你就可以把選務怎麼規劃好所以你剛回答是這樣嘛但是那一天確實就是有十個十個公投案那就是因為表示你的人力還不夠嘛你分流沒有做好嘛這是你在回答中"},{"start":419.998,"end":432.975,"text":"可以解決的問題的方式所以說我們這邊是不是也就代表說以前上一次的2018年的公投中選會沒有辦好是因為人的問題是因為人無能而不是因為並大選"},{"start":435.157,"end":458.131,"text":"所以你在回答問題我覺得在2018年確實選務工作做得不完善所以說是因為這樣所以這幾年民進黨一直在講說公投綁大選造成選務的混亂其實不是嘛因為公投綁大選事實上是真正能夠展現民意真正讓每個民眾能夠有機會去表達他自己的意志的時間嘛所以我想您在這個整個回覆中也已經"},{"start":459.353,"end":488.035,"text":"已經這樣子充分的回答了說您針對公投綁大選覺得這個選務的部分其實的亂象不是因為綁大選而是因為行政座有沒有做好嗎是這樣嗎因為其他國家有些國家確實是沒有綁大選那我認為說如果真的要綁大選我們就必須要把選務工作處理做正用更好因為在你問題的一些言論跟立場事實上你是反對公投綁大選的那當然今天我在研究報告是寫我支持欸"},{"start":488.955,"end":505.943,"text":"對 你在你的但是你看喔 你在這個在這個自由時報的這個對 專欄裡面我寫你是這個空頭綁大選只會毀了公投本質喔對在你以前的說法對那我們希望說不要因為今天是未來來擔任副主委所以你就改變你過去的說法到底我們要相信哪個你"},{"start":506.343,"end":524.84,"text":"是公投同意公投綁大選的你還是反對公投綁大選委員因為我們現在法條已經改了我們未來就是要因應一件事情就是要綁大選我們要預防的一件事情就是2018年的那個狀況出現希望您不要是因為為了要擔任這個副主委這個職務而去出賣您原來的一個這個"},{"start":525.886,"end":535.874,"text":"自己的一個學術的一個良知還是希望您能夠如果未來您有幸能夠擔任副主委的話一定要秉持公正超然獨立的立場來行使職權謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17234","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17234","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ead3a2b43aa665e40728dbefb2f530c7a7dfb732b93458e467deb89ce061bfab3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"2.胡被提名人博硯-立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單，游盈隆為委員並為主任委員，胡博硯為委員並為副主任委員，黃文玲、李禮仲、蘇嘉宏、蘇子喬及陳宗義均為委員，請同意案。【1月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-28","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-28T08:36:47+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-28T13:08:00+08:00","duration":16273,"影片長度":"04:31:13","委員發言時間":"08:36:47 - 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麥玉珍 丁學忠委員三人列席官員 大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑暨相關人員內政部常務次長吳唐安暨相關人員中央全局委員會法務部外交部國家安全局國家通訊傳播委員會數位發展部交通部司法院監察院財團法人海峽交流基金會等機關代表暨相關人員主席王昭基委員美會討論事項審查反滲透法修正草案暨時案討論事項合併詢答委員"},{"start":1675.943,"end":1701.918,"text":"審博楊王定與黃捷說明提案要旨大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑內政部常務次長吳唐安報告委員蘇巧慧等17人質詢分別由大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑及相關人員國家安全局第三處陳副處長法務部參事謝志明司法院刑事廳法官吳元耀內政部常務次長吳唐安中央選舉委員會法政處處長蔡金皋數位發展部法制處副處長吳怡倫答覆說明"},{"start":1702.358,"end":1726.412,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員莊銳雄 林怡瑾 丁學忠 徐欣盈 沈發慧等五人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢請問各位委員 典禁會議記錄有什麼錯誤與遺漏嗎沒有"},{"start":1732.922,"end":1754.126,"text":"議事錄確定我們繼續進行討論屬行欠先讀審查行政院海頌中央選舉委員會委員提名名單游盈隆為委員並為主任委員胡柏彥為委員並為副主任委員黃文林李李仲蘇嘉宏蘇紫橋及陳宗義均為委員請同意案"},{"start":1754.666,"end":1767.195,"text":"依序分別審查由被提名人 迎龍胡被提名人 柏彥黃被提名人 文玲李被提名人 李仲蘇被提名人 嘉宏蘇被提名人 子喬陳被提名人 鍾毅宣讀完畢我們來介紹主席的委員跟行政機關列席的領館跟被提名人"},{"start":1786.857,"end":1807.233,"text":"我們先來第一位張志倫委員第二位劉錫廷委員現在進來我們的王鴻薇委員我們現在向正義秘書長張敦漢秘書長"},{"start":1811.365,"end":1816.527,"text":"中央選舉委員會主任委員被提名人游一龍副主任委員被提名人吳柏彥委員被提名人黃文玲委員被提名人李立忠"},{"start":1839.198,"end":1842.701,"text":"委員比提名人 蘇嘉鴻委員比提名人 蘇志橋委員比提名人 陳忠義主任必須謝美玲我們鄉長的臨時"},{"start":1867.347,"end":1874.134,"text":"先任總署培訓考用處處長李花蘇你歡迎"},{"start":1888.188,"end":1895.45,"text":"立法院院會第11屆第4期第16次會議報告交付內政司法及法治兩個委員會審查中央委員會所提出的命令"},{"start":1910.774,"end":1914.916,"text":"兩委員會一位二十六級辦公廳會日前也已經完成本院各黨團隊被提名人的資格"},{"start":1925.34,"end":1952.356,"text":"事任性所提出的書面問題函請行政院轉致各備提名人經行政院函附各備提名人提出與相關的資料並以檢証於各黨團在案本案審查程序安排在28日、29日兩天一天"},{"start":1954.793,"end":1955.094,"text":"會議分配審查"},{"start":1961.516,"end":1986.712,"text":"本這個會議開始進行宣告以下事項先進行被提名人游一龍先生的說明和答詢依程序由行政院張秘書長和游一龍先生分配說明後進行詢答"},{"start":1988.434,"end":1991.957,"text":"由榮榮先生撥分全部達成結束後 休訓10分鐘再進行提名人胡柏彥先生的署名與答詢程序與定管一樣 並釋放會議"},{"start":2009.431,"end":2033.526,"text":"會議進行的總統之下依程序分別進行比提名人黃文玲、李立中、蘇家鴻、蘇志橋跟陳宗義說明與答詢答詢的時間出席委員會六分鐘內席委員會四分鐘"},{"start":2038.869,"end":2043.836,"text":"本院委員會議定期時間10點半至1時本次會議沒有要處理臨時提案現在我們請行政委張秘書長進行說明"},{"start":2065.447,"end":2082.665,"text":"主席在場的各位委員各位先生女士媒體朋友大家早安今天立法院內政跟司法法制委員會聯席審查行政院所提名的七位中選會委員被提名人本人應邀"},{"start":2084.576,"end":2106.755,"text":"這個列席報告深感榮幸選舉罷免跟公民投票都是我國國民重要的參政權也是憲法保障人民參與公共事務的基本權利台灣透過了一次次選舉罷免或者是公民投票逐步的深化我國的民主憲政"},{"start":2108.812,"end":2129.801,"text":"為了貫徹憲法保障民主法治及人民參政的主旨總選會秉持超然中立恪守中立的精神統籌辦理公職人員選舉罷免及公民投票的事務持續鞏固公平公正公開的公共事務環境以確保國民"},{"start":2130.95,"end":2157.211,"text":"意志的展現因此中選會運作是中華民國實現民主核心的機制那以下僅就本次的提名作業做簡要的報告跟說明依照中選會組織法第三條第一項規定中選會設置9到11個人其中一人為主任委員一人為副主任委員其他的委員7到9位"},{"start":2158.12,"end":2174.43,"text":"那這次的提名也是依照中選會組織法來進行提名領選具有法證相關的專業經驗的公證人士來擔任委員中有同一個黨籍的不得超過委員總數的三分之一"},{"start":2176.96,"end":2191.425,"text":"那也跟大家報告跟說明依照中選會組織法的規定中選會除了主任委員跟副主任委員之外其餘經為兼職無給職那這次的提名也依照這樣的規定來進行跟辦理"},{"start":2193.151,"end":2218.456,"text":"那麼第二個說明是中選會前主任委員李靖勇、副主任委員陳昭健、委員許惠峰、陳恩明、王韻如、徐雅芬等六人的任期已經在去年的11月3日屆滿另外委員蒙志成也因為個人的因素而提早請辭所以這一次行政院提名游英龍為委員並為主任委員"},{"start":2220.543,"end":2247.491,"text":"胡柏諺為副主任委員並為委員委員包括了黃文玲女士李禮仲先生蘇嘉鴻先生蘇紫橋先生等六人那以上這六人的任期會依照相關的法令規定任期會到2029年的11月3日而且委員蒙志成的遺缺將由陳忠義接任任期會到明年的11月為止"},{"start":2249.502,"end":2272.95,"text":"那這次中選會的新任委員提名是依照中選會組織法第三條規定辦理滿足了三個法定的條件第一個滿足了中選會組法第三條第四項的規定提名了具有豐富專業學士或實務經驗的公正人士來進行第二個同一個黨籍的委員也不會超過三分之一在這次被提名人當中"},{"start":2274.378,"end":2302.217,"text":"僅有胡柏諺有時代力量的黨籍蘇嘉鴻教授有中國國民黨的黨籍那陳忠義前立委則是有民主進步黨的黨籍其他的四個人目前僅為無黨籍如果蒙大院通過所有的人事同意權後那麼加上目前現有的四位委員委員的有黨籍的同一黨籍的人數的比例不會超過法定的三分之一"},{"start":2303.373,"end":2324.168,"text":"那第三個經過這次提名作業的竊竭拒絕所有的七位被提名人均無中國戶籍也無外國戶籍或永久居留權也符合了相關的國籍的規範那以下也就這次七位被提名人的學經歷背景做簡單扼要的報告"},{"start":2327.042,"end":2355.108,"text":"那第一位是主任委員 並為委員游盈榮教授那大家對他很熟悉 他是台灣民意基金會的董事長過去長期在學術界在東吳大學任教非常多年那在中央的行政經驗他不但擔任過過去行政研考會的副主任委員陸委會的特任副主任委員海基會的副董事長兼秘書長"},{"start":2356.926,"end":2382.182,"text":"也擔任過中選會的委員在政治學比較政治民意與投票行為政黨選舉等領域專業駐有專精那第二位是胡柏彥委員並為副主任委員胡柏彥教授現在是東吳大學法律系的教授專長是憲法行政法過去他也在不同的大學任教"},{"start":2383.629,"end":2410.732,"text":"也曾經擔任過許多中央部會的訴願審議會或者是法規委員會的委員那他也曾經擔任過中選會訴願委員會的委員對於中選會的業務也是非常的實務上也是非常的了解那第三位被提名人也是過去的資深的立委黃文林律師那黃文林律師的專長是法律及內政"},{"start":2412.335,"end":2438.565,"text":"曾經擔任過第八屆的立委也曾經擔任過多個仲裁協會的仲裁人在程序、主持、爭議處理方面有相當豐富的實務經驗第四位是李李仲教授李李仲教授是由中國國民黨所推薦的被提名人李教授現在是中華科技大學的專任教授也是副校長"},{"start":2440.084,"end":2467.783,"text":"專長是商業跟金融監理的法規公平法跟智慧財產權等多元的領域那他過去也曾經擔任過第七屆公平交易委員會的委員長期投入法學的研究兼具公共治理選務跟獨立機關的實務經驗那第五位蘇嘉鴻教授也是中國國民黨所推薦的優秀的人選"},{"start":2469.161,"end":2493.901,"text":"那蘇嘉宏教授目前是福音科技大學的專任教授過去在中央他也曾經擔任過海委會國家海洋研究院海洋政策及文化研究中心的主任等職務現在也擔任許多地方政府醫療爭議調解委員會跟醫事審議委員會的委員從中央到地方從理論到實務也具有豐富的經驗"},{"start":2495.441,"end":2511.986,"text":"第六位是舒子喬教授舒子喬教授是台灣民眾黨所推薦的被提名人舒子喬教授是現任東吳大學政治系的教授專長是憲政體制選舉制度以及比較政治"},{"start":2514.421,"end":2542.907,"text":"長期研究我國的憲政制度跟選舉制度並著作等身有相當豐富的期刊跟論文那第七位被提名人是陳忠義前立委他目前是桃園市選委會的委員專長是法律曾經擔任升格之前的桃園縣的桃園市長也是立法院第五屆的立法委員 資深立委"},{"start":2544.212,"end":2571.093,"text":"在地方不只有行政的經驗也擔任過長期的縣議員的職務具有豐富的中央跟地方的實務經驗相信也能夠為中選會無論是中央或者是地方的選舉事務能夠投注非常多的專業的貢獻那這次中選會的提名作業也感謝國民黨以及民眾黨"},{"start":2574.936,"end":2593.476,"text":"舉薦優秀的人才經過行政院審酌的考量秉持著韓納各黨推薦橫跨朝野背景兼具理論實務以及中央地方經驗這四個原則我們就相關的領域領選了七位"},{"start":2594.773,"end":2618.052,"text":"被提名人加上現有的四位中選會委員也都是學長巨優相信能夠為中選會籌辦選務注入專業全面的規劃跟運作思維持續深化中華民國台灣的民主法治體現主權在民希望貴院所有的委員能夠"},{"start":2619.349,"end":2625.152,"text":"理性審議予以支持 以上報告請各位委員先進指教 謝謝謝謝 感謝張秘書長的說明 現在我們開始來進行被提名人游盈隆先生的說明和答詢請被提名人游盈隆先生說明"},{"start":2659.68,"end":2684.251,"text":"王主席各位委員行政院張秘書長各位女士各位先生大家早安大家好我今天非常榮幸能夠以中選會主委被提名人的身份來國會的殿堂來接受各位的"},{"start":2686.385,"end":2715.303,"text":"提問不過一開始我沒有預期到說我還要做報告要做說明不過我簡單的講11月底我接受行政院的提名我是抱持著一個如臨深淵如履薄冰的心情接下這樣的一個提名我知道"},{"start":2717.062,"end":2743.868,"text":"中選會主委的工作是非常的艱鉅的中選會的工作不是常人所能夠理解的但是中選會的工作關係到台灣民主的成敗所以承擔這樣的一個角色那是無比的沉重也無比的榮幸"},{"start":2747.318,"end":2751.941,"text":"我是懷抱理想跟使命感而來我希望為台灣民主作出貢獻在目前國內政局緊張政黨高度競爭的環境裡面中選會要如何"},{"start":2776.112,"end":2801.683,"text":"做到讓各黨都能滿意讓所有的候選人能滿意讓選民能夠滿意是一個非常艱鉅的挑戰但我相信如果我獲得大院的同意支持未來我一定會"},{"start":2804.336,"end":2831.4,"text":"堅持絕對的超然中立客觀公正並且專業的精神和能力全力以赴希望中選會一個健全的中選會能夠在大院的支持之下早日的出現在國人眼前讓我們"},{"start":2833.22,"end":2840.704,"text":"2026的大選能夠順利成功讓我們2028的大選能夠順利成功中選會是這樣的一個角色我在這裡非常誠摯的也謙卑的要向我們的國會報告並且也請求讓中選會"},{"start":2864.4,"end":2891.143,"text":"人事案早日通過 讓中選會早日上路 為大家做事 謝謝大家謝謝 我們現在請登記第一位 牛西庭委員質詢謝謝主席 請被提名人游教授請游教授"},{"start":2899.81,"end":2917.538,"text":"好 早安您大部分我們認識游教授都是在新聞媒體上因為這個台灣民意基金會的這個民意調查也算是赫赫有名長時間的滾動提供了政治圈非常多攻打手邊的一個素材那大家在"},{"start":2918.777,"end":2945.339,"text":"這個看到游盈隆教授被列為中選會主委的提名人的時候大家當然是有一些意外也有很多問題想要請教那麼今天很高興有這樣一個機緣可以跟教授來做一下面對面的討論我問的第一個問題就是你應該如何確保啊這個如果有幸成為中選會主委啊因為你平常也評論非常多的一個政治的事務也做民意調查在基金會裡面有職務你怎麼樣確保這之間的分際可以非常的清楚你打算做哪一些的決定"},{"start":2948.43,"end":2973.986,"text":"謝謝牛委員我已經有了相當的覺悟擔任中選會主委也有一定程度的犧牲是要付出的我可能失去了自由我的意思是說失去評論台灣公開評論台灣政治的自由作為一個政治學者"},{"start":2975.265,"end":3004.13,"text":"我作為一個關心台灣的知識分子那樣的一個犧牲是重大的但是為了更高的目的為了更重大的目標我覺得我必須做這樣的歌聲一語雄長不能得見好 所以意思就是說不會再發表相關的評論民意調查等等也會離開基金會的職務是這樣的意思嗎如果大院能夠"},{"start":3005.32,"end":3026.933,"text":"通過中選會主委的人事同意權任命我將辭去台灣民意教育基金會的董事長也辭去董事我採取比法律更嚴格的標準做自我的要求非常好 謝謝"},{"start":3028.345,"end":3044.755,"text":"那麼我們再針對幾個常常我們在中選會這個平台做討論的題目跟教授做一下意見的交換這個目前立法院有很多的委員提案修正公職人員選罷法或者是不在即投票的各種相關的一個草案那也有這個"},{"start":3046.958,"end":3075.311,"text":"這個大家的版本不一樣但大部分的版本基本上都是限於所謂的境內移轉投票有關不在籍投票的部分換言之就是透過登記的部分我不見得要舟車勞頓的返鄉我可以在就近的投票所去投別的選擇在自己戶籍所在地的這樣子的一個投票那我想請問一下被提名人立法院如果修正相關的法令新增了不在籍投票相關的制度限於國內移轉投票請問您會不會忠實的執行立法院通過的法律當然"},{"start":3076.348,"end":3105.541,"text":"如果立法院通過了不在籍投票中選會只有依法行政全力以赴好 謝謝那您覺得在您如果你有機會領導中選會啦你可能需要多少時間來做好境內移轉投票制度的相關準備工作我不知道這項立法到時候在立法院會如何通過整個制度的內容到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":3107.08,"end":3135.419,"text":"我不清楚但是我也要就最近我从我们中选会同仁那里所得到的许多的资讯我深深的感觉不在即投票是世界的潮流也是台湾许多人直觉上对的一个"},{"start":3136.734,"end":3163.294,"text":"努力方向但是當我們在講世界各國很多都採取了不在籍投票的時候台灣沒有感覺到自己落後了自己很慚愧我覺得那種心情是可以理解的我肯定那是一個進步的思維可是我們也不能夠脫離現實"},{"start":3165.816,"end":3192.081,"text":"如果回到我們自己的國家的選舉制度我們深入去看很快就會發現不在籍投票牽涉的是非常複雜的選舉的工程尤其是九合一我打電話 因為時間很有限大概抓多少時間去做它當然是個浩大的工程因為比較具體的想法讓我講這一句"},{"start":3195.105,"end":3220.4,"text":"尤其是在九合一地方選舉裡面實施不在籍投票就現階段來講肯定是一個災難中選會已經提出來如果在九合一地方選舉辦不在籍投票將會造成將近九千種不同的選票的移轉等等等等所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":3224.062,"end":3245.281,"text":"很重要的一點我們喜歡看天邊的彩霞但不要踩壞了眼前的一大這個玫瑰讓我們的傲視世界的台灣選舉然後蒙城教授這個那到底是要執行還是不執行花多少時間準備"},{"start":3246.405,"end":3272.194,"text":"所以我剛剛講原則上我剛剛已經講但是願意執行但是需要很多時間準備實際上要通過什麼樣的制度內容目前您知道嗎還是您可以現在告訴我我可以做回應當然這個有很多不同的版本這個如果你有幸擔任中學會主委相信還有很多討論的機會但因為時間有限我們還有問最後幾個問題因為我們的執政黨曾經表示如果施行不在即投票會導致"},{"start":3273.835,"end":3302.741,"text":"選民投票的信任消失會有作票的風險也曾經說會有讓中國大陸借選更加容易即便我們剛剛講的現在的不在籍投票的版本是國內的移轉投票這樣子的一個說法你認同嗎在你領導下的中選會你如何去避免這個選務公信力下降的問題你該如何把這個東西帶領好你真的覺得不在籍投票會有作票的風險嗎請你簡要回答就好選務行政的公信力是非常重要甚至是最重要的"},{"start":3304.707,"end":3323.969,"text":"讓選民相信選舉的結果是公正的但是實施不在籍投票最大的困難是來自於執行面在可行性我覺得境外的影響等等可能是比較其次"},{"start":3324.602,"end":3351.603,"text":"比較其次 還是在於選務整個在超辦選務過程中遇到的一些新政的困難那你有沒有信心可以逐步的解決我不要講一步到位如果立法院提了一個中選會沒辦法執行的一個方案壓垮中選會我也沒辦法在這邊跟您保證說一定就能夠做得好如果這樣的話是不負責任"},{"start":3352.042,"end":3363.448,"text":"好 謝謝教授 因為今天時間有限不過我建議你 後面還有很多委員要就教就直接回答這樣子就好 好吧好 這給你一點點提醒跟建議 祝你今天順利 謝謝謝謝我們感謝牛西廷委員質詢我們現在張志倫委員"},{"start":3378.703,"end":3387.641,"text":"好謝謝主席各位媒體各位官員大家早有請這個中選會主委提名人游盈隆教授加油教授"},{"start":3393.68,"end":3412.896,"text":"好教授好首先恭喜你成為中選會被提名人也預祝你可以順利當選那教授容我稱你教授那教授過去這個本席對你的了解不管是從這個電視上或是一些民調當中去了解你"},{"start":3413.596,"end":3441.603,"text":"那當然您對這個在去年的時候針對於這個大罷免的亂象你也公開提出這個批評甚至非常誠實的時候這是對民主的傷害您的說法是執政黨就是參與發動這場全面性無差別的大罷免企圖奪回國會主導權不僅是台灣民主主流的民意的反對也會被其他民主國家不能接受"},{"start":3442.082,"end":3462.689,"text":"所以這個意思就是說大罷免不是民主之光反而是台灣民主之詞這是您說的嗎是 我講過是 好 那本席在這邊必須要稱讚您就是你願意講真話的風骨本席予以高度肯定那這邊我本席也要特別講在台灣這個民主史上不管是選舉"},{"start":3464.049,"end":3491.048,"text":"罷免或是公投在選舉制度上其實是蠻完整的一個制度可是在罷免跟公投上過去產生出了很多問題尤其在罷免上就您的這個評論來講就是執政黨其實利用了罷免裡面很多的漏洞來去做一些這個政黨政治的一些對決跟一些操作所以本席想要這邊特別跟你請教尤其是在罷免這個每一個民意代表當選一年內"},{"start":3491.989,"end":3508.019,"text":"可不可以執行罷免的這個連署的時候其實這個法是無明文規定的可是會造成這個社會上的一個對立喔所以本席必須要說選舉投票是一個民主的行為可是罷免他是一個"},{"start":3509.22,"end":3527.677,"text":"政黨的一個對決 而且造成社會分裂而且是長期會造成一個情熱的問題投票你投誰 大家非常清楚嘛而且這是秘密投票 大家不知道你投誰可是罷免 如果你沒有去連署的話會造成無盡的情熱啊而且你沒有罷免 我遇到很多民眾跟我講說他就是不想要連署罷免"},{"start":3528.417,"end":3557.153,"text":"可是被民眾這樣子要求說一定要罷免要去簽聯署還有一些攤販跟我講說他如果沒有去聯署罷免人家會跟他恐嚇說你這樣子我的生意讓你做不下去所以我覺得在當選一年內去做這樣子的這個罷免的聯署其實就是現在整個制度上的一個漏洞那我看到你的報告裡面也有想說你未來會倡議說不能去進行這樣子一個動作請問你有沒有一些具體的做法"},{"start":3557.993,"end":3566.291,"text":"或是未來可能會跟內政部去討論這樣的事情以目前的制度來看這個對於"},{"start":3568.124,"end":3594.789,"text":"罷免的規範是在選完一年之後也就是說當選一年之後才能夠進行罷免但是法律沒有禁止社會對就是說有相關的罷免的言論主委你同意這樣子不是說聯論是大家言論自由可是進行連署的一個方式您自己本身也是不贊成的對吧"},{"start":3595.029,"end":3616.805,"text":"我不贊成連署因為可以倡議那是言論自由那但是如果這個進行連署的話那就會對於我們想培養的這樣的一個成熟的政治文化是有傷的"},{"start":3618.009,"end":3635.22,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝教授教授您講的其實就是我們的心聲為什麼因為其實當時這個連署的一個過程造成社會分裂而且很多民眾其實被情人恐嚇這樣的狀況其實非常的不好那也希望說未來您有機會擔任主委的時候也要多倡議這樣的行為謝謝"},{"start":3637.902,"end":3656.142,"text":"那第二個我相信很多委員今天都有在跟你請教就是有關於不在籍投票的一個部分那不在籍投票其實目前其實我覺得這是非常重要因為現在就針對很多在投票所的工作人員他們其實有時候他們現在也是可以不在籍投票嘛是嗎"},{"start":3657.943,"end":3675.471,"text":"所以現在的行之有年就是很多的工作人員其實在投票所的時候他們是可以進行不在籍投票那所以本席有看到你的報告裡面寫說未來可行不在籍投票的順序第一個是移轉投票針對限定境內或身份特殊或是戶籍"},{"start":3676.491,"end":3697.249,"text":"在外的一些選務人員未來可以來考慮或者是在特定身份的不在投票比如說這個原住民族或是服勤的軍警消人員等等我覺得這兩點我覺得非常重要因為第一個很多的公務人員或是警消人員其實他們的工作地跟戶籍地是不一樣的地方所以"},{"start":3698.17,"end":3724.919,"text":"這個部分本席也支持非常強烈支持您這樣的主張那是不是有一個期程說如果是不是可以先通過比如說我們一般的這個公務人員或是警消人員他們可以先來辦理這樣子的一個不在籍投票是不是可以請您回答是根據中選會最近的這個研究跟思考中選會是建議"},{"start":3726.697,"end":3746.476,"text":"不在籍投票先从单一的公民投票开始实施然后逐步的累积经验之后进一步推广到各项选举所以就这个角度来讲我觉得这样的一个态度是神圣的"},{"start":3747.02,"end":3766.998,"text":"是負責任的所以未來是不是能夠什麼時候哪一年能夠有一次公民投票然後在公民投票裡面試行不在籍投票然後我覺得那會是一個很重要的開始"},{"start":3767.52,"end":3790.08,"text":"好 了解 就是先從公民投票先起然後之後再可能再就不特定人再來就是可能有進步有機會可以全面好 那我也希望主委這邊加速來實行那最後一個問題其實針對其實當時我們這個立法院其實有決議一個這個公投的一個主題叫做反廢死"},{"start":3791.101,"end":3813.761,"text":"公投那當時是被中選會來就是否定這樣子的這個題目那因為當時這個議題對很多民眾來講是非常的重要因為當時大家看到很多的這個殺人事件覺得說那這樣現在的現在的民進黨政府就是不願意對現在比如說一些的案件去這個判死刑所以當然民眾覺得很"},{"start":3814.642,"end":3840.609,"text":"不能接受所以當時立法院才有這樣子的一個提案然後沒有想到被當時的中選會給否決那我想要請問主委當然你們否定也沒有當時你們有自己的理由啦那是不是針對這些民眾所關心的重要的這個公投的議題未來是不是有一些可以大家可以溝通的機會而不是說中選會直接把立法院提出的這些公投的主題直接給把它否定掉"},{"start":3841.328,"end":3860.551,"text":"是 這是一個很複雜的問題我覺得未來應該要多做溝通我覺得會比較好否則這裡面牽扯到太多複雜的問題沒有溝通的話引起強烈反彈對社會也不好"},{"start":3861.411,"end":3873.218,"text":"好 謝謝教授 聽到非常開心有機會第一次跟你這樣子面對面的質詢也期待你可以未來有機會可以當我們中選會的主委謝謝你 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張志榮委員質詢 我們家張宏祿委員"},{"start":3894.75,"end":3912.87,"text":"我請我們的游主委加油教授首先質詢前還是要稱老師好啦好 張委員好"},{"start":3918.454,"end":3946.357,"text":"游教授是我大學的老師其實我很多的政治學的東西都是游教授教導我的所以今天這樣問我是有點尷尬但是還是要問我想請問一下很多的委員也都有在關切這個不在即投票"},{"start":3947.097,"end":3967.408,"text":"但不在一起投票其實分了很多種那大家現在一直在講一直在講其實慢慢的好像聚焦在移轉投票台灣現在大家一直慢慢聚焦在移轉投票那其實我們中選會辦的就是選政的工作我們的選務的工作其實是地方選委會在第一線在辦"},{"start":3968.949,"end":3978.623,"text":"那選政的工作我們就是說我想要請教游教授就是說其實台灣現在"},{"start":3981.482,"end":3999.848,"text":"已經有部分的移轉投票我們投開票所的工作人員就有移轉投票那如果貿然的要大規模的這個移轉投票我個人 我一個很擔心的問題"},{"start":4001.055,"end":4020.525,"text":"我想不出解方也沒有任何人可以提出任何解方未來如果移轉投票變成是選政的一個改變的話我可不可以指定某些人去某個投開票所我去那邊投票跟開票"},{"start":4022.037,"end":4028.863,"text":"會不會有這種可能發生要看選區吧如果我為什麼要這樣講會變成買票"},{"start":4039.731,"end":4063.519,"text":"買票的人 我要求你收了我的錢你去特定的投開票所投票我買幾票 你沒有開出來幾票 你就是給我跑票未來會發生這種情況如果發生這種情況 我不知道各位被提名人 你們有沒有解方"},{"start":4065.28,"end":4085.074,"text":"我相信目前都沒有解方啦我不知道教授您的看法我這樣講好了不再急投票我剛剛說的是世界的潮流民主國家採行不再急投票非常多那我們台灣在這方面其實已經落後很久了"},{"start":4092.031,"end":4120.638,"text":"所以要迎頭趕上我覺得在道理上是說得過去的不在即投票你讓許多無法返鄉的人去在他居住地投票這說起來社會上普遍也是會贊成的但是我也同意張委員剛剛所說的這可能會產生很多的問題包括你說的買票"},{"start":4122.686,"end":4140.104,"text":"这是因为我们台湾从来没有实施过不在籍投票所以我们不知道会碰到什么情况所以在这样的情况底下事先当然应该做好非常周全的研究调查"},{"start":4142.184,"end":4168.18,"text":"然后考量各种因素然后再来进行我觉得目前中选会所提出的这样的一个解决方式我觉得是可行的就是说我们要循序渐进不是一步到位我们一开始就在九合一选举里面全面性的弄不再急投票这个是太困难"},{"start":4169.911,"end":4191.893,"text":"太大膽而且太冒險的作為報復平和那不足為信那是不是可以未來從公民投票開始這個先做從那裡開始實施然後逐步的累積經驗然後解決了"},{"start":4193.564,"end":4205.641,"text":"我們社會或者是很多人們的疑慮我覺得這樣子分階段一步一步的走會是比較好的做法我也是這麼認為我覺得我們先從公投先對視"},{"start":4210.441,"end":4228.537,"text":"對勢來移轉投票 為什麼呢我也覺得這個不再急投票很多的國家都這樣做那台灣要不要跟著做我覺得這是一個很崇高的理想我也不反對但台灣有特殊的買票文化"},{"start":4229.522,"end":4248.499,"text":"美國會買票嗎不會吧對不對但台灣這個買票文化我們從報紙上就看得非常的清楚到處都有在買票幾十年來都是這樣那如果我們對人的選舉也實施移轉投票"},{"start":4250.168,"end":4272.274,"text":"我們的對岸中國 我跟你講 透過大規模的買票這個是對台灣啊 一個非常嚴重的一個災難所以我個人 我是認為對全國性的公投 事情我們可以先來做做看為什麼我要這樣 我必須再說我辦過選舉我是"},{"start":4276.009,"end":4294.105,"text":"縣選委會的總幹事我當了四年從村里長的選舉到總統的選舉我都親自辦過我跟你講 選務的複雜程度啊超乎大家的想像我們連一張選票連那個有汙損或印得不好"},{"start":4295.615,"end":4313.442,"text":"我們要一張一張選票這樣去看從頭到尾看到尾那個每個人壓力有多大如果你要移轉投票我跟你講 問題太多了我要光說一個你連投票通知單 你選舉公報他要移轉去那裡 要誰去送"},{"start":4314.639,"end":4338.201,"text":"到時候他說我沒有收到這個有很多技術性的問題所以我必須要說移轉投票不是不行但不能照進照進會把台灣馬上一次垮掉如果一次選舉的不公平大家以後對選委會這個公信力就不在我常講一句選委會"},{"start":4340.069,"end":4356.884,"text":"如果你要辦選舉我多給你人啦 多給你錢啦很多技術性是可以克服的但公信力是最重要的一件事選務公信力三個字是最重要的所以我還是覺得啦主委教授"},{"start":4358.53,"end":4375.46,"text":"如果你的看法也是一樣就是從事情先來我覺得應該是先朝這個方向不可以一次太躁進不知道教授的看法主委我完全同意你的看法我覺得這樣做對台灣是比較好的好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張宏祿委員接受我們今天黃姐的委員"},{"start":4395.387,"end":4400.033,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請游盈隆被提名人加油教授"},{"start":4408.71,"end":4430.501,"text":"好黃委員好是好邱董事長先跟您請教這個不在即投票其實您剛剛已經有提到一個重點就是說不在即投票雖然世界各地有很多國家在施行但是我們不一定要這樣冒進而且如果直接用九合一大選來貿然的進行的話會是一場災難這是您剛剛的論調那我在這邊也想要附和這個"},{"start":4435.443,"end":4447.967,"text":"論點喔因為其實大家也知道說選舉的公信力是最重要的那選舉如果我們九合一大選直接開始施行不在籍投票的話您剛剛是說會增加9000種選票是嗎就選票的種類來講是將近9000種"},{"start":4452.941,"end":4481.714,"text":"是的這就是一個非常重大的技術性的問題所以我在這邊想請教的是你們有沒有先算過如果九合一大選要直接使用不在籍投票會要增加幾倍的經費幾倍的人力多少個投開票所因為我還沒有上任我只是努力的去收集相關的訊息我不知道中選會是不是已經評估出來我目前手邊沒有這樣的資訊"},{"start":4482.844,"end":4508.957,"text":"好那我在這邊先提供一些資訊喔在2021年內政部其實有大概統計過就是說如果這一些就學就業沒有涉戶籍那可能會因為不在籍投票而可能可以投票的人大概第一名是在雙北大概就有37.4萬人那第二名會在台中有26.5萬人第三名是桃園有26萬人第四名是台北有18.5萬人"},{"start":4510.518,"end":4533.372,"text":"那如果這一些人通通來申請這個不在籍投票大概就是會增加大概百萬人以上那這個是2021年的數字那台北市的選委會當時也有出來說光是這個投開票所可能就要增加三倍以上那如果現在年底就要來做這件事情的話您覺得可行嗎您就一個選務機關的考量來說"},{"start":4538.369,"end":4559.854,"text":"選舉2026地方選舉是11月28號舉行今天正好1月28號就是10個月左右我覺得直覺上是不可行的事實上最近中選會也曾經行文給各地方的選舉委員會"},{"start":4562.076,"end":4582.251,"text":"各地方选举委员会也都回报关于不在籍投票地方的态度没有一个选委会是同意在这一次采行不在籍投票的所以地方事实上也是挫雷弹"},{"start":4583.866,"end":4613.566,"text":"是嗎因為就我剛剛說的光是台北就說要增加三倍了更不用說其他像是新北台中這一些可能不在籍的人口有大概三四十萬人的這一些選區那所以我覺得這當然是一個很大的技術性的挑戰但是話說回來剛剛其實有一句話我其實沒有很認同是剛剛這個有董事長說我們台灣沒有實施不在籍投票跟國際上相比來說是落後的"},{"start":4614.306,"end":4642.118,"text":"那我必須要說其他的國家跟台灣的情況大大的不同啊你不能拿台灣的情況跟世界各地來比啊請問其他國家有中共借選嗎有一些想要試圖來破壞我們台灣民主的這些境外勢力嗎沒有嘛那再來其他的國家有像台灣這樣經歷過這些什麼中立事件等等買票做票的過去選舉舞弊的歷史嗎"},{"start":4642.958,"end":4663.198,"text":"也沒有嘛所以台灣的過去民主的歷史是非常艱辛的我們是這樣一步一步大家靠著人民的信任人民的爭取那我相信游董事長過去也是經過這些民主的事件努力撐起台灣的民主的所以一直拿國外來跟台灣比較我覺得非常的不公平"},{"start":4663.698,"end":4678.415,"text":"那台灣現在需要的是一個非常可信穩定而且有這個選舉公正性的民主制度所以任何的變革我認為都必須要在非常的可信而且公正的基礎上來進行選務的變革沒有不行"},{"start":4680.718,"end":4706.603,"text":"但是前提非常非常的重要因為台灣的民主很辛苦我們是這樣撐起來的所以在這邊還是拜託我們這個游董事長如果要回答說不再集投票是國際的趨勢的時候拜託想想台灣自己特殊的歷史拜託想想台灣過去是怎麼走過來的所以不要一味的說要跟國際上來比較這真的不是一朝一夕可以做到的"},{"start":4707.003,"end":4720.903,"text":"那最後會有一點時間我跟您請教這個公投綁大選因為過去有董事長一直都是支持公投綁大選的所以在這邊想請教那如果您未來上任之後您還是支持公投綁大選嗎"},{"start":4722.383,"end":4750.099,"text":"我當然支持公投綁大線而且也沒有不支持的空間因為法律已經修正了所以我在這邊就要請教的是沒錯因為這個藍白還是強行的又再次通過了嘛那我要請教的是那您要怎麼務實的解決過去2018發生的邊開票邊投票的問題開票到半夜三點的問題以及這些因為人綁事而造成這個沒有辦法好好的討論公投議題"},{"start":4751.88,"end":4778.144,"text":"以上這些問題直接民主是民進黨的核心價值我過去二十幾年來當我是一個民進黨黨員的時候我實際的參與相關的事務無數的民主前輩為了能夠實現公投犧牲奉獻他們的青春生命自由"},{"start":4779.44,"end":4802.034,"text":"所以公投是一個民進黨的核心價值是所有的民主國家應該要追求的是的 我們都認同我們也非常支持公投制度所以我在這邊跟您請教的是如何防範重演2018邊開票邊投票以及開票到半夜三點以及這些可能會影響選舉結果的可能的情況再度出現"},{"start":4803.621,"end":4831.369,"text":"2018年是一個噩夢而且這個噩夢的形成有一些條件支持其中一個那您如何預防未來不會再重演呢這是一個選務機關最重要的工作我可以說明一下嗎2018那一次有十項公投這十項公投選委會公告之後一個多月而已就要投票"},{"start":4832.665,"end":4852.96,"text":"所以造成整個秩序大亂這是其中一個所以這一次經過這幾年來朝野的這個共同的體驗之後修法所以將公告之後一個月就投票改成三個月這是一個很重要的一個改變第二個"},{"start":4854.83,"end":4877.917,"text":"以前辦理那麼龐大的選務一半法律規定一半是要軍公教人員現在也修正成三分之一只需要三分之一好 是的 謝謝游董事長所以我在這邊希望您可以承諾既然公投綁大選是您的立場也是您的責任那未來希望你可以承諾在你的任內絕對不會再發生2018的噩夢我們盡力而為這個要請你保證喔 謝謝"},{"start":4883.697,"end":4898.976,"text":"好 謝謝備題名人 謝謝黃健委員好 接下來有請王美惠委員主席南江有教授有請備題名人 謝謝"},{"start":4905.16,"end":4917.526,"text":"王委員好你好在這幾天的過程當中我們有看到你的履歷剛才你說到你人家告訴你要做檔門這個節目的時候也有一邊高興"},{"start":4925.229,"end":4947.548,"text":"也有一邊為了理想而走因為在這個過程當中我們的選舉委員會中選會是要有中立的在剛才本席所聽的好歡樂的就是覺得大家都想你長久以來是在民意教育基金會裡面擔任當事長"},{"start":4950.885,"end":4955.114,"text":"剛才有很多委員請教說你可以當時時你說你如果"},{"start":4962.101,"end":4975.727,"text":"這個人事案過 過得馬上死因為我覺得好的理想雖然是夢死 有的人也說自己每天都要批評民進黨那是怎麼來做這個因為我覺得有擔當的執政黨裡面"},{"start":4987.146,"end":5010.735,"text":"應該無論他是我什麼人 他是批評什麼人今天我們要做政府單位是看他的認知所以在這裡我保證 我在自己也是國民黨也是我們的朋友任何一黨都是我們的朋友為了理想 為了建設"},{"start":5012.176,"end":5015.559,"text":"我們都要做法表這是最好的 如果不做朋友 我們也沒辦法不可能說法表當中 你的總選委跟你不共同 不一樣的想法你就不採納他的意見跟他的想法 大家討論之後 才可以"},{"start":5037.198,"end":5047.485,"text":"有好好的問題出來所以在這個過程當中 最重要最重要今天大家差不多都說不再舉投票到時候你說可以為"},{"start":5051.673,"end":5055.656,"text":"公投開始 但是在這個過程中 你有回答過我們是怎麼理會一般人 會亂吵吵會這麼多人會開票的時候 又有人要投票因為這種 我相信在你的代言之下 以後可能不會再發生也不是可能而已 一定不會再發生"},{"start":5077.793,"end":5092.269,"text":"在不在一起投票的時候有很多人歡樂的就是像我們的孫悟寧原譬如他在黨區做孫悟寧原像我自己來說"},{"start":5094.382,"end":5108.976,"text":"他在當局的補考在當局的要不然他算不領完譬如說在第一樓的票箱第一樓的票箱不是他應該到的地方因為他有申請要不然在這個過程裡面你覺得他最高興的就是議員都一樣"},{"start":5119.71,"end":5130.349,"text":"市長都一樣 但是里長不一樣他這張票如果沒投出來是人家贏的里長還是他沒投里長 大家都知道"},{"start":5134.437,"end":5158.716,"text":"所以告訴你 在這裡面我就是說我們自己也好 全國也好我們今天是要講全國的 但是我是批論這個情形給你聽因為我們中華民國的台灣選舉是大家最近都認為最好的 雖然是很古早"},{"start":5159.537,"end":5172.668,"text":"但是改進到有夠好的 因為我們哈丹伊威就是我們有一個派出兵在派出兵當中 有什麼的影響到選舉因為我常常說 好的人才認真發表的名義代表"},{"start":5180.254,"end":5189.981,"text":"我們一定鼓勵他當選 但是在這個過程當中不在此投票有時候會去應用到選舉的結果所以在這裡要問教授不在此投票 本席跟你說因為有時候"},{"start":5200.916,"end":5213.367,"text":"嘉義賠票的也很多也有現在都回到嘉義也有但是在嘉義你如果在本郷在三庄很多嘉義人在那裡他不覺得什麼他如果兇勇去申請一個"},{"start":5219.773,"end":5228.521,"text":"我自己人都沒有在那裡的票櫈我一個伴侶在那裡而已我今天的票投出來這樣才算秘密投票啦到時候你來回答我所有擔心的事情我們大家來做參考因為未來這可能"},{"start":5241.772,"end":5260.857,"text":"也會逐一去改善來王委員所擔心的一個秘密投票可能破功出問題這確實是一個問題要去注意另外就是說你一開始的計較說我批評民進黨很多我在這裡跟王委員報告"},{"start":5268.957,"end":5274.678,"text":"我都是酒酸輪酸 沒特別去批評民進黨我也批評共產黨 也批評共民黨對啦 告訴我 我現在你可能 國會有我的意思告訴我 我現在是說 以我民進黨的有人說 跟你們去提名這一點點 會批評你們我來說 民進黨會出的 會認載"},{"start":5294.682,"end":5296.343,"text":"不分什麼 不可以說跟他批評我們說我們不好我們就不提名他啊因為他有他的專載嘛我剛才是來講這樣因為我覺得很多人都講久了欠費到買廢人嘛"},{"start":5313.135,"end":5314.916,"text":"所以我要跟你說的就是有這個生活我相信你也聽到了你說的說 你說的事實但是有的人覺得說有需要"},{"start":5328.075,"end":5332.381,"text":"這樣做嘛這時候我覺得說要讓這個國家愛好像你這個領袖一定很讚的啦我這時候要問你不只是投票你要怎麼去改善本縣兩個"},{"start":5345.098,"end":5347.64,"text":"會擔憂啦 憂己難保人如果去到台北 我再跟你說有兩個地方有很多假義人 那都沒差那挑剔憂心靈 我剛才還說如果派出兵"},{"start":5360.031,"end":5364.194,"text":"我們的生活他有辦法用另外一個生活這個票房跟你們的小家庭你們兩個都沒有去住這要怎麼處理這才是最重要的啦到我來說"},{"start":5375.981,"end":5377.922,"text":"前陣子我是想問是怎麼邀請你來 因為你有你的專長我認為批評不是壞的 批評可以讓一個人改變他的生活可以做得更好"},{"start":5395.373,"end":5398.934,"text":"這是在我都覺得很關鍵的像我 我有時候也會覺得說我們做得不好應該要怎麼做才對啦來謝謝黃委員的指教 全份了解這個不在籍投票 我剛才也已經跟大家報告在這裡再說一次就是說"},{"start":5419.212,"end":5436.894,"text":"不在即投票是一個很複雜的事情不是說化作就去做 那是會造成很大的問題 像這災難所以要循序漸進中商會有提出一個完整的草案給鄉長"},{"start":5438.255,"end":5460.172,"text":"行政議也通過 交給立法院所以是不是可以用風雄來努力累積經驗來盡量檢討它可能造成的問題包括翁議員你所說的 閉閉投票這種很重要的事情對 剛才我還有兩三個問題想我這幾天的時間也交給大家我們再去探討 希望"},{"start":5466.067,"end":5480.525,"text":"我們可以做得更好 因為我的想法就是不管你是哪一組 財政委員會也有很多特等都提出的領袖所以我們應該是樂觀青春 可以讓中選會砸獵"},{"start":5484.557,"end":5502.791,"text":"去做好事才對不是在這裡說分什麼檔案這樣是不應該的如果要分什麼檔案在座的都不可能今天來到這裡以上謝謝謝謝王美惠委員那阿伯提名人請回交接一下"},{"start":5512.731,"end":5525.269,"text":"人家陳培宇委員執行好 謝謝主席 那有請背題名人背題名人"},{"start":5530.92,"end":5549.777,"text":"好 董事長早安我剛剛坐在現場聽了非常多的委員跟您請教了關於不再急投票你的立場非常的清楚就是不再急投票如果貿然實施會是一個大災難那我們就接下來看大家都沒有想到的一個問題我覺得非常的可怕"},{"start":5550.233,"end":5578.052,"text":"不確定董事長你有沒有注意到在去年11月我們立法院在藍白惡意強力主導之下通過了公投綁大選而且他說投票案公告成立後一到六個月就要舉行公投這個是針對人民的部分可是公投法又有規定董事長他說如果是總統交付或是立法院或是行政院提案的特殊公投案"},{"start":5578.852,"end":5597.552,"text":"不適用相關的頻率跟日期的規定就是沒有一定要兩年才能辦一次所以我可不可以假設一個情況請中選會想一想也請董事長你考慮一下怎麼回答第一個假設今天真的有立法院藍白黨團惡意再提出一個在今年年底大選以前"},{"start":5598.152,"end":5617.16,"text":"就來提出一個立法院本身提出的公投案然後逼你們中選會因為剛剛主委你一直被提名人你一直說你支持公投綁大選那我就看年底選舉的時候只要立法院藍白黨團對中選會提出相關的公投案不管是什麼主題"},{"start":5618.761,"end":5640.114,"text":"那你們就要處理喔可是你剛剛跟我說你支持公投綁大選這是第一個情況那年底就會有九合一大選加上公投綁大選這是第一個困境第二個困境假設我在想像一現在網路上有非常多人在帶風向跟有相關於情討論相關幕僚可不可以讓我問完讓我問完因為第二個問題比較難"},{"start":5642.284,"end":5656.967,"text":"好第二個問題第二個問題就是假設有人他發起一個運動叫做我假設年底真的有兩種票可以投一個是公投票一個是九合一大選票可是我只申請移轉不再期投票部分我只申請公投"},{"start":5657.868,"end":5675.75,"text":"的部分可是我不在我那個九合一大選我還是繼續在我的原戶口地方投然後呢我就開始在網路上製造一個輿論叫做是你們中選會為難我你害我只能放棄某種選票因為可能我一個票在台北一個票在花蓮可是假設我當天又沒有辦法兩地趕著投票"},{"start":5676.391,"end":5698.385,"text":"那他不去問他自己為什麼要操作這種行為他就會問中選會假設您真的當選主委之後這絕對會是一個難題請不要說我可能過度惡意的想像我必須說現在的台灣社會確實有非常多人是刻意要製造混亂製造國內的不團結甚至在這種看起來像民生事務上給相關行政機關你們造成困難就算中選會是一個獨立機構"},{"start":5707.909,"end":5727.633,"text":"首先關於公投綁大選的大是大非的問題他不是大是大非不好意思董事長我認為他是一個相關配套因為辛苦的是我們基層的選務人員就像您剛剛一開始有說他會動到非常非常多選票的規劃從2004年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選"},{"start":5732.99,"end":5760.711,"text":"也都很順利的舉行了2008年民進黨提出兩個公投綁大選國民黨相對也提出兩個四個案也順利辦完了公投綁大選今天碰到的問題是2018的那一場災難因為那一場災難所以大家想說怎麼樣避免災難重現"},{"start":5762.113,"end":5785.884,"text":"我剛剛跟大家報告說 其中2018年為什麼是獨特的我也希望它是獨特的不會再發生了那是因為它建樹這麼多 十個然後又是在中選會公告一個月多一點的時間馬上進行投票 所以整個選務大亂所以在這種情況底下 我覺得"},{"start":5793.324,"end":5803.373,"text":"抱歉讓我這樣講西方有一句話不要倒洗澡水連嬰孩一起倒掉意思就是說"},{"start":5813.871,"end":5822.53,"text":"公投是重要的跟選舉綁在一起利益甚佳而且過去的經驗也證明說是可以沒有問題"},{"start":5824.008,"end":5848.725,"text":"所以我剛剛才進一步跟您請教因為我時間有限我等一下會被主席請下台所以我剛剛問假設有人立法院提案就要在今年大選的時候他真的就有公投題目可以一起投然後又有一群選民假設他真的要惡意操作製造台灣內部的分裂跟不團結氣氛那我就申請我的公民投票部分我可能在AD可是我的九合一大選我還是回到我的戶籍地"},{"start":5849.085,"end":5866.868,"text":"然後到最後說是你們中選會害他不得不拋棄其中某一種投票的權利請問我們怎麼預防這個問題我認為現在的困境就是各種荒謬的狀況真的都很有可能在台灣發生從立法院開始到很多不同黨籍的委員尤其是在野黨的委員"},{"start":5867.689,"end":5886.601,"text":"斷的製造非常多分裂跟惡意的這種對話跟論述所以我必須要提出這麼看似很荒謬的問題但是不可能因為只要是立法院提案或是行政院或是總統交付特殊的提案他就可以不用受兩年頻率這個限制是我也很希望這種很獨特的狀況不會發生"},{"start":5889.051,"end":5905.631,"text":"但如果發生了呢我也希望不要發生那如果發生 我也希望不要發生目前這個所以主委您聽 被提名的聽懂我的意思了對不對我當然充分了解您意思中選會公告之後三個月目前新的法律規定是這樣子"},{"start":5906.451,"end":5935.531,"text":"對啊所以他只要在下個會期立法院只要有人惡意要操作這個題目我們立法院真的就可以提出一個公投提案然後逼你們中選會表態你們要不要支持這個公投提案讓他走入公投然後年底的時候就公投綁大選我們沒辦法處理政治問題中選會處理行務問題那所以我剛剛說嘛好那假設回到人民我剛剛的意思就是說我陳培餘的戶籍如果在花蓮我就回去花蓮投九合一可是我公投的題目我就把它移轉到台北我住的地方"},{"start":5935.936,"end":5958.696,"text":"那最後我創造一個輿論跟氛圍就是是你們中選會害我不得不拋棄其中一種選票因為就是在去年藍白惡意主導公投綁大選硬要降空通過所以我認為更多的惡意操作都是有可能的那我基於一個負責任的民意代表我認為我有需要跟被提名先討論這個問題當然相關的惡意的做法可能不是"},{"start":5959.116,"end":5977.652,"text":"在您的想像當中但是我現在就先提出這個疑問當然我相信後續的很多討論跟配套假設在事件發生之後真的要拜託你們假設你們都能夠成功通過被提名然後成為中選會的委員當然這就是你們要頭痛的事情但我想我身為一個民主的後輩過去看您非常多民主的成就"},{"start":5977.992,"end":6000.58,"text":"我必須要在這裡跟您報告過去這兩年來在這一屆立法院確實就很有可能有相關惡意的操作那甚至有相關的支持者就予以配合他真的就會出現我的公投票在台北而我的九合一回到花蓮然後我就說是你們中選會害我只能投其中一種票以上這是我給您的建議好 我們會留意這方面的情況好 謝謝"},{"start":6002.922,"end":6015.007,"text":"謝謝我們感謝陳培宇執行我們現在吳石瑤立委執行謝謝主席辛苦了有請我們有備提名人現在有備提名人"},{"start":6037.746,"end":6047.514,"text":"因為今天可能沒有機會每一位都追尋到但是我想這是難得的機會可以跟大家分享一些觀點了我想我破題非常清楚當政治越紛擾的時候"},{"start":6049.515,"end":6078.32,"text":"中選會的選務就要越公正超越黨派而且要守憲合法這是每一個從政人員我們我想未來大家有機會如果通過同意權我們在宣誓的時候的誓詞就是於誓以至誠恪遵憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使職權所以呢超越黨派跟守憲合法是重要的夏燕"},{"start":6080.372,"end":6097.804,"text":"我這邊列出來私藥自己認為的成功的選務的三要素他當然要是公正的他也是要效率的他更要能夠變明這是選務成功的三要素我也認為中選會的委員的四個要件獨立行使職權"},{"start":6099.165,"end":6128.15,"text":"基於專業而且要能夠公正更要首先合法我的選務三要素跟中選會委員的四要件我們未來的這個主委提名人游老師應當都認可吧有沒有補充的完全認可好謝謝我要跟您報告思堯在努力的面向不談政治中選會有很多可以做得更好導入design thinking不曉得老師您對於design thinking有什麼樣的理解"},{"start":6130.772,"end":6157.166,"text":"Design Thinking沒關係 我來替您說明好了賈伯斯曾經說Design is not how it looksDesign is about how it works也就是Design Thinking不只是大家說設計美學事實上它是以使用者為切入點讓整個事情更有效率而且可以解決問題"},{"start":6158.703,"end":6175.893,"text":"所以我曾經因為台灣設計研究院是思堯在任內催生的一個新設的國家的組織透過設計的導入來攪動我們的公共政策也提升公共服務的效能跟品質所以設計院成立之後我們去跟很多部會敲敲門"},{"start":6177.094,"end":6191.656,"text":"我也帶著設計院去向前主委李靖勇先生敲敲門希望能夠導入design thinking讓我們的選務更進步更親民更有效率所以這是我當時2021年拜訪李前主委的時候來下一頁"},{"start":6193.157,"end":6222.036,"text":"而我們改變了什麼我希望未來的中選會的委員們都能夠持續來推動吳思瑤催生中選會CES設計院投入我們改革了選舉的很多的更進步更變明也更美學的這些做法第一個在投票動線的優化左邊是before右邊是after他更讓大家在有限的空間的移動更有效率就是design的導入"},{"start":6223.837,"end":6248.05,"text":"他在選舉公報的優化上過去咱就在洗頭人公號還選舉公報還在這裡啦排版好就是非常的unfriendly所以我們找了設計師design thinking以後after是在後面非常清楚讓大家可以一覽所有候選人他的政見相關的學經歷這是設計導入的正向成果下一頁"},{"start":6249.69,"end":6268.338,"text":"設計導入呢還包括這些標識系統的革新越美也越清晰不會永遠都是標開體好不要永遠是中華民國美學而這樣的選舉美學我們獲得世界級的Good Design設計獎獲得亞洲最具影響力的設計獎"},{"start":6269.498,"end":6273.979,"text":"也獲得台灣的經典設計獎所以我希望未來的委員們都能夠持續的來優化這些design thinking導入我們的選務下一頁當然還包括 圈選票處我們真的也讓它更簡潔 更俐落 更好看而不是數十年如一日我們小時候真的投票就是這樣到現在立法院自己的圈選票處還是長一樣"},{"start":6294.844,"end":6308.297,"text":"是可以革新的我想先就這個正面的分享給大家我想主委大家應當都可以如果後續需要很樂意再串聯設計界跟中選會合作主委未來的主委OK嗎我非常的"},{"start":6314.172,"end":6339.338,"text":"因為司法委員剛剛有繞英文我覺得這個就是中選會未來需要的中選會未來需要我是一個進步改革主義者所以任何能夠進步能夠改革的都是好的事情選舉更有效率選舉更美學選舉更變明然後大家對於選舉去投開票所的心情可能也好起來很好"},{"start":6341.358,"end":6365.827,"text":"讓我再講一句我沒有想到我在今天來立法院可以看到這些新的觀念我簡直是unbelievable所以立法院是有認真問政優質進步的立委而不是只有毀憲亂政的黨團很好下一頁當然不在即投票是今天的重點我剛剛講的選舉的三要素"},{"start":6366.227,"end":6380.598,"text":"公正效率跟便民提案的民眾黨團顯然只著重在降低選民投票成成本的那個便民的思考但是對於公正性跟選舉的效率他會造成選務的混亂甚至影響秘密投票甚至"},{"start":6381.278,"end":6404.128,"text":"也或多或少有境外借選風險增高的疑慮產生對於整個投票民主制度的信任危機所以呢絕對不能先求有再求好我們都支持行政院的版本您剛剛也說公投先行嘛好這是我們共同立場我們希望未來大家一起來捍衛這樣子的做法下一頁而以"},{"start":6404.949,"end":6425.537,"text":"我們行政院去徵詢了這些執行者選務機關的代表對於不在籍投票欠缺配套的狀況之下是all say no21縣市認為現在可以上路的是0個縣市甚至連民眾黨提案黨團他們自己執政的新竹市也認為不可能"},{"start":6427.938,"end":6435.644,"text":"所以呢過半的縣市也都支持行政院的版本公投先行我希望我今天要多花一點時間為什麼要跟主席多爭取一點時間因為民眾黨團的不在即投票他們就是這一屆立法院的壞習慣近乎二讀啊"},{"start":6444.89,"end":6463.479,"text":"委員會沒有討論啊直接不翼而覺啊很有可能這週搞不好禮拜五又拿出來表決了所以今天有這個機會跟大家討論我就是希望能夠把這些數據告訴國人告訴社會台灣沒有一個縣市的選務機關認為不在即投票現在可以上路"},{"start":6464.019,"end":6477.715,"text":"NO所以我們就要審慎公投先行是多數的共識下頁而我們以投票意願這是我做的其實台灣的選舉投票率都是七成以上"},{"start":6479.076,"end":6494.084,"text":"對於這些已經有不在籍投票有不同的可能是電子郵票啊可能是境外投票不同的行使的這些不在籍投票的國家台灣的投票率都是高的除了南韓南韓有他這一次總統大選不同的"},{"start":6494.444,"end":6508.298,"text":"政治社會經濟的背景所以說不在於投票並不是等同於高投票意願的這個思維我要在這裡論述在下一頁更重要的是未來這是大家的事情我們要辦一個讓人民滿意的選舉"},{"start":6511.127,"end":6516.47,"text":"而你看看台灣目前選務的滿意度2024年總統立委選舉84%的人民滿意給各縣市的選委會跟中選會拍拍手2022地方選舉滿意度83.2%2020總統立委選舉滿意度86.9%唯一一次就是剛剛未來的這個主委候選人說的"},{"start":6537.441,"end":6557.14,"text":"災難的2018的那一次公投房大學滿意度是28不滿意度高達68.6%這更要讓我們看到人民的聲音好我跳到我最後一個主題好嗎對不起因為有民調專家我還是想問一下這一題主委"},{"start":6558.846,"end":6566.752,"text":"我一直叫您主委 他未來的主委您認為在台灣 中共競選 境外勢力競選的嚴重嗎有這麼難回答嗎我坦白講作為一個嚴謹的政治學者來講我要回答的是說 感覺上"},{"start":6584.929,"end":6595.092,"text":"很嚴重事實上政府沒有找到非常多的證據來證明他很嚴重所以我覺得我們應該因為主席站起來證據在這裡證據在這裡"},{"start":6600.976,"end":6618.974,"text":"看清楚法務部公布中國借選的手段境外資金的借選網路選舉的賭盤跟認知作戰假訊息的操作2024年被偵辦的依反滲透法的案件境外勢力借選117件287人這個不是證據嗎 主委 下一頁"},{"start":6626.348,"end":6639.866,"text":"而國民黨黨主席的選舉是自己自家的人跳出來批評的我就不再贅述了中國的借選變本加厲我們就是要欲提從寬料敵從嚴下一頁"},{"start":6643.766,"end":6659.149,"text":"各國都有韓國加拿大澳洲美國印度甚至在美國這種民主的國家中國可以利用製造假駕照的方式大量的協助中國的僑民去投票假駕照的方式"},{"start":6659.79,"end":6687.077,"text":"所以世界各國面對中國的借選都在進行ING的防範主委 我們不要掩耳盜鈴您是民調專家 我問您一個專業的問題現在都有民調禁制期在選舉前公布的日期您覺得現在是幾天 您知道嗎 十天您認為如果要調整 同意嗎未嘗不可"},{"start":6687.717,"end":6704.204,"text":"未嘗不可 那調整到幾天是可以接受的幾天好您的我尊重 台灣是民主社會現在國民黨立委要調變三天啦太危險啦 太危險啦我們回到前一頁"},{"start":6705.919,"end":6720.171,"text":"我們看看喔中國受益記者與退休教授捏造9次不實民調遭判刑司法判刑張顯耀先生涉嫌受中國指示發布講民調介入選舉遭起訴這都是司法偵辦換言之為什麼66%民主國家有選舉的民調"},{"start":6723.154,"end":6723.394,"text":"太短"},{"start":6747.558,"end":6770.32,"text":"太短嗎所以就專業論專業我覺得我們今天做一個非常好的示範沒有政黨立場我們超越黨派就專業論專業我們期待每一個委員都是獨立的專業的首先合法的以及能夠公正行使職權的最後一個提醒您提醒主席拍謝下一頁公投的那個這一個"},{"start":6773.547,"end":6779.817,"text":"國民黨提出修公統法要用公民覆決來推翻憲判主委你認為呢"},{"start":6781.446,"end":6809.257,"text":"這會是一個高度爭議性的問題所以我剛剛說中學會委員要守憲合法不問黨派守憲合法是基本的底線憲法78條司法院統一解釋憲法之權憲法訴訟法38條所有的憲法判決人民各機關都要服從而人民就包括公投行使的這些主體人民釋字185號也說明了不容挑戰用任何方式來推翻憲判"},{"start":6810.297,"end":6835.857,"text":"公投法第2條也規定公投的實施要遵循憲法的規定我要提醒大家未來的立法院一再的毀憲亂政要用公投法的修正來凌駕憲法未來這個難題可能會落在各位委員你們在審查公投案的當下我要提醒不看黨派不看顏色守憲合法是我們每一個人宣誓就職"},{"start":6838.752,"end":6848.141,"text":"的誓詞請大家謹記在心好謝謝游老師我今天多次稱呼您主委不好意思僭越了被提名人游盈隆先生我們一起加油謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳思堯委員質詢我們請黃建斌召委質詢抱歉讓你等很久謝謝"},{"start":6869.236,"end":6878.742,"text":"好 謝謝召委 主席我們先有請我們貝提名人游盈隆先生上台貝提名人游教授"},{"start":6882.748,"end":6898.394,"text":"老師好黃委員好老師好 老師因為目前還在這個人事審查階段嘛所以本席就先稱呼為有董事長其實我相信台灣的民眾對你都不陌生你過去擔任過民進黨副秘書長還有海基會副董事長那在政壇的"},{"start":6900.115,"end":6920.935,"text":"經歷非常豐富是我們的大前輩後來擔任台灣民意基金會董事長也經常發布民調跟時事的評論很多見解其實常常引起回響像是去年民進黨發動主導大罷免結果大失敗的時候你就非常直率的說大罷免是惡意的在排除在野黨"},{"start":6922.028,"end":6941.216,"text":"那但是他不會被選民所接受然後你更直接的批評說民進黨推動大罷免毫無正當性那可以說是民主之詞那本是要對於你雖然出聲民進黨但卻有足夠的勇氣來說出民眾的心聲並且給予我們執政者中肯的這個建議這件事情我們先讓你閣斗在這裙頂"},{"start":6942.375,"end":6968.035,"text":"那尤其身為現在身為中選會主委的這個被提名人擔任這樣的角色就是必須要能夠超越黨派然後克尊中立那帶領我們中選會發揮本來應該要發揮這個超盤獨立的這個功能因為在過去我們中選會的中都被人家下面加一個新被批評是中心的中這個很一樣他不是中於人民是中於執政黨所以"},{"start":6969.122,"end":6983.915,"text":"舉例來說在大罷免期間很多立委辦公室都發韓文去中選會希望能夠提供一些相關的資料那中選會都用行政流程的理由然後一拖再拖就有這些不願意給立委提供給立委的這些資料"},{"start":6984.716,"end":7008.752,"text":"甚至都還沒有經過中選會的這個會議的審議通過就霸團跟這些媒體都有辦法先拿到然後接下來就是在網路上公開然後帶風向那發生這樣的情況其實相對是非常明顯有違反這個中選會這個有違反這個行政中立甚至有泄密這個嫌疑那這也是為什麼中選會長期以來形象一直不好的這個原因之一就是因為他雙標嘛讓大家認為他雙標沒有"},{"start":7010.873,"end":7034.523,"text":"做到這個客手超然獨立這個立場因此本席也希望說如果未來老師有順利成為中選會的主委一定要無忘初衷那秉持客觀中立勇於對執政者提出建議說真話甚至批評的這個勇氣這是我們大家符合大家對你原本的這些期待那接下來本席要針對溫泉中有關於不在籍投票的議題來跟您討論"},{"start":7035.39,"end":7057.276,"text":"就是你在問卷中的回應是說不在即投票涉及憲法保障人民參政權擴大政治參與意義重大你舉雙手贊成這點本席給予肯定因為你的態度非常清楚明確就是說當你也聽到說不在即投票當然還有許多行政跟技術上的問題需要來克服那"},{"start":7058.831,"end":7082.844,"text":"這個但是問題是身為選務機關的選務主管機關應該要站在守護人民投票權當出發點那努力去解決問題克服困體才對所以因此本席也希望說如果老師你就任主委的時候能夠更進一步積極的來推動不在籍投票特別是針對這個偏鄉還有原住民地區來優先實行那為什麼本席會這樣講"},{"start":7084.485,"end":7101.901,"text":"我來住台東 台東就是一個偏鄉我們很多人都在外面工作 求學 很多的原因所以在每次要回去投票要花很多的成本這成本不只是交通上的成本 包括時間上的成本跟主委分享一下 像台北到台東坐火車四個小時"},{"start":7102.711,"end":7119.912,"text":"那到台東市 你要到其他的鄉鎮可能還要一到兩個小時的時間他可能投票就要花一天的時間這個是都會區沒有辦法想像你可能早上出去投票三十分鐘 人家會怪怪的事情 地方來講我們要開一天的時間這是偏鄉很大很大的投票上的困難齁那像我們2024年的總統大選"},{"start":7121.96,"end":7148.483,"text":"的投票率我們全台東縣是62%相較全國平均是72%我們少了10%因為先不問實在太管了所以會影響到人民投票的意願這是本席支持不再投票最主要原因那希望我們在外工作這些台東的子弟或讀書的學子能夠也能夠享有跟其他人一樣投票的權利不會因為距離影響了投票的意願最後我也要再呼籲一下游董事長就是說"},{"start":7149.284,"end":7172.586,"text":"如果未來立法院審核通過你擔任中選委的主委我想也請你務必要保持過去一直保持的這個客觀中立勇於對執政者提出建言的這個勇氣並持續地推動不再急投票落實憲法賦予人民的平等參政權也守護我們偏鄉民眾投票的權益謝謝博文 請問董事長是不是可以來做到"},{"start":7173.511,"end":7196.214,"text":"當然 我覺得我剛剛已經講不在即投票是世界的潮流社會也高度關注身為一個政治學者也好或是一個知識分子也好我舉雙手贊成但是我們還是要非常謹慎面對讓它循序漸進不要追求一步到位否則會帶來很大的災難"},{"start":7197.888,"end":7215.859,"text":"對我們一起來努力啦 這可是真的 剛才剛才講的那些感受的地方我們導致的譬如要放鬆幾年那可能真的大家沒辦法 可是我跟你講 我也發電量所以我充分了解謝謝主委很正面的答覆 那我們一起加油那謝謝謝謝我們的背題名人 謝謝叉緯 謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃建斌叉緯質詢 我們請蘇巧"},{"start":7232.406,"end":7238.27,"text":"書面書面喔好來書小慧書小慧不在我們這裡有提名有委員抱歉我想說我們的夢幻學生沒有看好 召委我們一位同仁請我們中選會被提名的人我們的主委我們的游老師游教授"},{"start":7260.712,"end":7280.541,"text":"委員好首先恭喜你被提名人但是我看早上很多人的爭議還是未來在網路上的假訊息包含不再去投票這是未來你當主委你要去推動要去承擔因為過去的九二一"},{"start":7282.712,"end":7298.919,"text":"過去的九合一上上界就是一個亂象那亂象的話你當一個主委你整個選舉的步調以及規劃都要很妥善現在那個整個中選會在這幾年"},{"start":7300.98,"end":7327.968,"text":"其實我們中選會我也是很肯定因為這幾年真的改變很多 國民黨的心目中真的有徹底改變但是未來不再舉投票這事還要好好的去規劃還有在網路以境外的那個假訊息的問題假訊息的問題我認為主委你應該是一個學者出身應該對這個問題 你要怎麼去"},{"start":7330.573,"end":7354.759,"text":"第一時間你要怎樣去耗子怎樣去開發怎樣去下架這是未來你要做的是不是主委這一點你來做說明好不好謝謝吳委員的指教假訊息特別是在網路的時代的新型是所有民主國家必須面對的巨大的挑戰"},{"start":7356.055,"end":7383.067,"text":"怎麼樣在假訊息衝刺之下能夠維持選務的公正性能夠讓所有的候選人還有選民都能夠獲得最好的保障這是中選會或是任何國家的選務單位必須面對的問題所以未來如果針對這個部分來說我相信中選會同仁"},{"start":7385.507,"end":7395.506,"text":"這方面經驗是非常豐富但是我們面對的是一個瞬息萬變的世界尤其是AI的時代所以"},{"start":7397.079,"end":7422.851,"text":"中選會怎麼樣能夠去面對這個問題中選會自己要有所捷悟但同時中選會是一個行政單位也需要立法院的強力的支持給予他 賦予他能力 賦予他資源讓他能夠應付這一個高度複雜而且充滿不確定性的年代"},{"start":7425.707,"end":7446.573,"text":"我們主委我們提名人真的你說這樣回答因為早過去中選會每次的選舉大多都是有一些網路的誤導以及境外的私立介入但是那時候很多都是反映中選會但是中選會還是沒作為"},{"start":7448.649,"end":7475.487,"text":"等到要有作為已經選舉完了這對候選人是非常的不公平所以這一點我要拜託我們未來的主委這一點一定要記著雖然是說我們要確保每一個好選人的權利例如說第一時間的反應我們都要立即的去處理這要不然好選人他受到這真的是不公平啦"},{"start":7476.933,"end":7504.291,"text":"這一點 我再請教你 你說不在一起投票這一點 我聽剛才建平委員在執行 你也是以雙手贊成那未來實施的時效是什麼時候目前中山會建議是這樣就是說從公民投票開始實施"},{"start":7506.459,"end":7532.007,"text":"從單一的全國性公民投票開始實施之後呢那逐步的累積這方面的不在籍投票的相關的經驗降低它的弊端然後一步一步的推進到全國性的選舉包括總統立委甚至到地方的選舉這是需要一個過程一段時間"},{"start":7532.987,"end":7548.622,"text":"不是立刻就去做事實上中選會也沒辦法決定我們立刻就去做中選會還是要遵循立法院制定的法律然後我們才能夠去依法行政但是中選會"},{"start":7550.303,"end":7573.618,"text":"秉持選務機關的立場也有責任和義務提供給立法院最充分的資訊這個可能面對的困難是什麼問題是什麼我們的建議是什麼我想這是中選會應該去做而且能做的好 謝謝我們當然啦我們中選會大家都期待嘛要有作為嘛"},{"start":7574.854,"end":7584.582,"text":"這是大家共同的期待以及目標吧好 謝謝好 請委員好那我請行政院秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":7591.738,"end":7596.483,"text":"委員長 委員長 現在全國 因為我看我們的媒體在報導我們的沙石的問題廢棄物的問題 現在是非常的嚴重所以說在這個部分 應該是我們在中央要跟地方政府來做協調"},{"start":7613.46,"end":7642.266,"text":"包含說每一管區 他們都可以說設置一個掩埋場或是呢 你說停台北港 就是說每一個地方也不要說讓沙石運到各縣市這樣都變成一個流竄 又是一個亂道的問題所以說這個博文 因為現在大家都反映說都是中央規定啦 什麼都推給中央"},{"start":7643.006,"end":7669.017,"text":"這對我們中央非常的不公平啊所以我認為行政院應該找地方政府大家來來設置要怎樣來處理包含我們的天海照路啊包含我們的港口啊港口旁邊很多要有我們的後櫃一些大型的工業區這都可以來推動委員跟召委可以給我差不多三分鐘來報告跟說明"},{"start":7671.983,"end":7700.917,"text":"稍微這個事情可以分三方面來跟大家報告第一GPS的部分現在中央的政策是你可以用中央無關系來進步或是環境部的GPS這可以進入第二有很多地方原本就有用GPS無關系手機或是車機都可以進入我們用GPS雙軌制的方式讓能夠載運沙石土方的車子能夠上路去載這是第一部分第二部分剛才委員"},{"start":7702.077,"end":7711.806,"text":"在找尋的戰智場的部分 現在中央加密集在跟地方開會在協調 中央會找從北到南 八個戰智場"},{"start":7713.584,"end":7737.873,"text":"包括台北港台中港張濱工業區台南有一部分那高雄這邊也有這個南興計畫的土地我們中央找八個戰事場希望地方也能夠進來這個協助管理這裡可以走 也是有地方可以走這是第二部分 第三個部分是就簡正便民的部分以前是這個"},{"start":7741.707,"end":7755.001,"text":"土方出來 要先經過土資廠再到最終處置廠 但是土方有些依照法規 也是有加料 現在可以從這個出廠直接到最終處理廠 又或者是在台中經過分析70%的部分是可以"},{"start":7759.505,"end":7786.679,"text":"也能夠就地來做合法的交易我們從這三個面向來做 還需要一些時間中央可以跟地方做的合作 公共工程也好各種私人的工程也好 能夠在合乎法律的規定之下讓土方的全流向的管制 穩健的上路還需要一點時間 中央地方會合作政府民間也會一起合作 以上跟委員報告"},{"start":7788.18,"end":7815.675,"text":"好 謝謝你說一些可再利用的這種的不要說一味的全部都規定的實施的這樣我就去改觀他們的問題不然現在很多你說每次我們都會去都在推動建設包括公共工程現在也是土方沒有武器處這一點就是他們都來帶我們陳情所以說我今天你 秘書長你有來特別幫你提起"},{"start":7817.313,"end":7837.963,"text":"好 謝謝有什麼歡迎再麻煩委員 改行經營來講我們繼續拍片 謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳祁銘在這要讓我們的秘書長說那刷牌也要刷牌更加到位 更加關心 更加了解因為這個萬象失去 真的很不好來 我們請劉淑萍委員質詢"},{"start":7849.052,"end":7858.147,"text":"好謝謝主席我現在請被提名人主委被提名的游盈隆教授游教授"},{"start":7866.154,"end":7887.245,"text":"郭教授您好那您不只是政治學者那你本身也曾經當過陸委會的副主委那對於兩岸關係的這個法律體系還有國家忠誠的問題應該都有非常的了解那我今天想要請教的一個制度性的矛盾就是陸籍配偶呢在"},{"start":7888.246,"end":7914.866,"text":"台灣的戶籍呢滿了十年之後呢依照兩岸人民關係條例呢他是可以參政的並且呢他也是經過中選會審查了具備了一個候選資格嘛那另外呢但是我們看到的是在國籍法依照二十條呢他當選後呢在他的就任前或是一年之內呢必須提出放棄中國國籍的證明或是依照其他的法律規定來辦理否則就撤銷資格了"},{"start":7916.167,"end":7918.069,"text":"內政部長劉世芳他也主張可以參選但就任前再用國籍法來去檢驗他的忠誠我認為有三個問題第一個是法律適用的問題兩岸人民關係條例是個特別法"},{"start":7932.503,"end":7958.554,"text":"在跟國籍法發生衝突時是否應該優先適用呢那內政部 劉部長的說法是否已經有擴張裁量權意願法律授權的這個問題那我先把問題說完那請這個貝提琳教授你就等一下再一起回應就我時間有限第二個問題就是參政公平性的問題那一個人可以參選後來當選但是最後是要高度仰賴對岸區"},{"start":7959.614,"end":7975.584,"text":"要去出具這個文件然後才會被撤銷可是事實上這個中共不會發的那是否會侵害到他的陸配的一個憲法平等保障的這個參政權那第三個就是說國家忠誠如何制度化這是民進黨非常重視的這個問題那忠誠應該的審核是在選前明確可預期的法律要求之下"},{"start":7982.908,"end":7999.184,"text":"但是還是說他還會依據選後補件那如果拿不出來就撤銷那因此就想說如果要在最後的這個在這個相關的法律還沒有整合之前你是否認為中選會應該主動的面對這樣一個法律衝突請劉教授回答 謝謝這的確是一個非常棘手的問題對中選會來講"},{"start":8008.512,"end":8035.613,"text":"一方面来讲站在保障参政权的立场中选会会乐见所有的国民的参政权都被完整的保障但是两岸关系是高度的复杂相关的法律到目前为止也没有就这一点有非常完备清楚的立法"},{"start":8036.724,"end":8063.633,"text":"所以在這種情況底下就留下了一個模糊的空間這個空間內政部有內政部的主張中選會在這上面幾乎沒有去主張什麼的這樣的一個立場但主觀上您作為一個學者作為一個學者我覺得兩岸是一個高度複雜的問題"},{"start":8065.666,"end":8068.793,"text":"我覺得這個目前這樣的一個問題"},{"start":8070.43,"end":8087.021,"text":"你就是侵犯他的公平參政權嗎這是好幾個價值牽扯在這裡面所以即便是在過去多年以來有國民黨執政時代有民進黨執政時代但通通沒有去根本解決這個問題所以這問題遺留下來這問題坦白講對中選會來講要交給中選會去處理這個是中選會沒這個能力"},{"start":8099.102,"end":8115.295,"text":"所以您就未來就是草獨立機關就不處理了是嗎不知道 我的意思是說那這個部分你應該是行政院這個可能秘書長要去回應那我現在問的一個問題更重要的是那特別法跟普通法的這個問題適用您應該怎麼看法呢"},{"start":8117.918,"end":8140.655,"text":"根據法律學當然我們在座有很多法律專家特別法是優於普通法所以兩岸人民關係條例但是這兩者因為兩岸關係高度的複雜牽扯的非常複雜的歷史的因果這裡面可能會衍生很多很多的問題就選務機關來講選務機關並沒有這種職權去做這個讓"},{"start":8147.86,"end":8168.646,"text":"所有的人滿意的 我知道啦被提名人劉教授你就是現在在一個審查期間這個問題應該是民進黨非常care的問題的那的確也是有他的複雜性但是這個不叫全國的人民包括學者專家必須好好去針對這個問題去好好去針對大家的部分要知道他的公平性"},{"start":8170.626,"end":8199.002,"text":"還有再一個問題在於說我們看到的是國內移轉投票的問題國內移轉投票涉及到的是又是一個價值非常重要的涉及到公平的平等權跟自由跟秘密投票然後也涉及到國家的信任那我剛才也聽到是主委是不是您對於一般我們民眾黨是提出來是國內移轉投票請其他的政黨就是尤其是民進黨不要去特別的去汙名化國內的移轉投票那請我想要說那個被提名的你針對"},{"start":8200.504,"end":8204.534,"text":"這國內移轉投票的話 您的態度是支持還是怎麼樣我支持啊"},{"start":8205.402,"end":8229.791,"text":"我完全同意 但是我覺得不是一步到位沒錯 我後面繼續問下去那這個部分我知道你也在你對民眾黨的回應報告當中也有提到說他必須按部就班因為涉及到國家信任的問題還有安全的秘密投票問題那你的意思是說先從公投開始嘛對不對包括是從選舉到原住民地方到中央是嗎"},{"start":8230.731,"end":8247.757,"text":"好那重點是相關的問題包括說我們就他的一個配套措施就是說他對於秘密投票有被破壞的問題還有對選票保管跟運送的問題那就這兩點你是不是就可能如果你當中選會的主委你有沒有後續的一個配套措施規劃或是想法初步的現在"},{"start":8248.737,"end":8270.573,"text":"我還沒有上任中選會主委啦不過我已經很努力的在了解相關的狀況我覺得技術上來講應該是可以處理啦否則這個像原住民的這個部分已經有了初步的大院也已經通過了相關的法律來解決這個問題我覺得"},{"start":8275.041,"end":8284.12,"text":"這個基本上是不會有大問題所以是基本上技術性沒有大問題是不是願意要不要做行政機關這部分要不要做的問題我想要講清楚的就是說"},{"start":8285.785,"end":8312.505,"text":"如果不再急投票立刻就要實施在2026的這一次九合一地方選舉那是幾乎所有的人包括22個這個地方的選舉委員會就是各縣市六都都齊齊以為不可所以應該要分階段然後實施之後能夠獲得社會的信心社會的信賴"},{"start":8313.446,"end":8330.677,"text":"我們再來推展到選舉上面去所以大家可以預期 如果您順利當選到中選會主委的話應該會提出中選會的版本半部就版了 就實施可行性去進行嗎是 我希望這樣子好 謝謝 那另外最後一個問題 這個主席先"},{"start":8333.058,"end":8351.522,"text":"包容一下 這地方就說您在民眾黨回應報告當中提到說對於中選會對公投案的審查僅限法律明定要件不涉及到價值判斷不涉及到價值判斷 那就是這部分那請問是說 如果是針對114年"},{"start":8354.147,"end":8381.063,"text":"在有送到中選會的就立法院的一個有公投案這樣子的案提到的中選會去做審查的時候拿到100J的時候是針對說題目是您是否同意各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決的政策呢這個立法院公投案假設您當時是一個中選會的主委您對於這樣子的一個案子是否能夠成案您的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":8382.424,"end":8395.787,"text":"我觉得那一个案子对中选会来说我事后了解中选会承受了空前巨大的压力要做出一个正确的决定是非常困难的"},{"start":8396.618,"end":8424,"text":"但是我們也要注意到中選會不是立法院提出了前部否決中選會也同意也處理了河山研議公投是的所以有一個通過一個不通過我相信上一屆的中選會委員會有他們的相當完整的思維但是主委那個主委被提名人我是問您的看法我是問您的看法"},{"start":8426.522,"end":8452.967,"text":"我的看法對這個議題我覺得這是一個非常困難的問題您這樣狀況是您的初步判斷因為這涉及到的是在程序上面這部分你是指的 劉委員你也是學者各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決之政策那這個部分是讓民眾去決定"},{"start":8454.958,"end":8479.657,"text":"所以他如果過程當中的程序上面並沒有違反的話應該是讓民眾去決定公投的意思就是在這樣子沒錯我充分了解你的意思而這正好也就是觸及了或凸顯了目前台灣這個司法審查權跟直接民選直接民主之間的衝突"},{"start":8481.86,"end":8509.305,"text":"所以這個問題到目前為止還社會還不是完全了解但是我覺得社會可以廣泛的去討論是不是公民投票的結果不能抵觸憲判這是一個很嚴肅的憲政的問題我覺得社會可以去討論但是上一屆的這樣的一個裁決我現在也算半個當事人我不便表達意見"},{"start":8511.326,"end":8537.009,"text":"好 謝謝至少我覺得這個被提名的劉教授您提出出來之後您知道現在在審查期間包括也是你過去的在民進黨的黨員後來你退黨但是你就知道說你自己有一個這個學者的價值這個風範我是覺得已經建立起來就是有一個高度肯定但我希望說您如果被立法院同意的話呢你就繼續的在這個位置上面就是在跳脫到政治堅守到行政中立"},{"start":8537.389,"end":8565.285,"text":"然後也重建中選 各界對於中選會的這樣一個信任因為大家都覺得中選會那個中是中於執政黨的那個中然後也落實到法定選務然後保障人民的實質參與這對你的期許這一點請委員放心好 謝謝游盈隆就是游盈隆 不會改變好 我們期待大家一起有目共睹期待OK 謝謝謝謝我們感謝劉淑檳委員質詢我們請王宏威委員"},{"start":8572.062,"end":8577.451,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們被提名人游教授加油教授"},{"start":8583.137,"end":8610.833,"text":"好游教授辛苦了可以看到今天包含就是我們整個審查會裡面包含我們國民黨的委員對游教授也有相當多的肯定那我想請問一下因為游教授過去除了是政治學教授還有民調當然對於政治也有很多評論而且呢你過去長期當這個"},{"start":8612.694,"end":8633.073,"text":"政府的烏鴉 執政黨的烏鴉那譬如說在去年的大罷免的時候你有很多的評論你的評論是大罷免是台灣民主之恥而且你曾經痛批有兩大戰犯死不認錯就是包含民進黨黨團的柯建民總召還有沈伯陽委員"},{"start":8634.494,"end":8657.734,"text":"那你也有提到就是大罷免是災難性的民主內戰那當然其實你的評論也不止於此所以你這次在被提名的時候外界其實有很多人是驚訝的那甚至有一種說法是說你可能可以得到在野黨委員的票數但是民進黨內部很多人對你有意見"},{"start":8658.715,"end":8681.196,"text":"所以您認為在這一次的整個的提名的表決過程裡面你目前評估你可以得到民進黨全數的票數同意你嗎這部分我不敢去評估不敢評估 所以有可能會有人跑票"},{"start":8682.057,"end":8700.096,"text":"我不知道好那另外請教一下因為我剛特別提到了一些大罷免在這個過程裡面很多人就開始談到一些我們法律跟一些制度上的問題在之前我們通過了就是在聯署要付身份證影本"},{"start":8700.936,"end":8716.81,"text":"民進黨政府有來提出復議但是呢並沒有拿去釋憲所以這個應該已經是可以確定的這個行政院也沒有拿去釋憲然後我想請問一下我們還有一個版本就是呢"},{"start":8717.35,"end":8738.268,"text":"加一版本就是你的被罷免票數要多過就是被罷免要多過你之前之前的當選的票數才能夠確定被罷免那我不曉得游教授你對於這一個的修法版本你個人的意見是什麼你同意嗎謝謝委員我的看法是這樣第一個"},{"start":8748.191,"end":8762.422,"text":"家父身份證這個是加嚴罷免權的行使坦白講在某個程度上我是贊成的因為全世界各國國會議員是沒有什麼國會議員罷免制度的"},{"start":8767.864,"end":8786.087,"text":"沒錯啊所以就這個部分來講我純粹基於學者的立場我是覺得加嚴我是可以同意的那第二個就立委提罷免同意票系高於當選票我覺得這兩個不能夠相"},{"start":8787.754,"end":8807.212,"text":"不能相提並論所以你對於加一的版本你個人有疑慮我覺得那個不合理你覺得不合理因為我們今天是審查必須把一些就是我們現在修法的過程要就教於你"},{"start":8807.967,"end":8832.991,"text":"另外我看到你回答就是我們立法院各黨團的就是有關於罷免的部分我們在罷免的過程裡面有很多的不合理其中有關於是政治獻金因為我們自己是從身為被罷免人那因為我們是被監督的對象但是相對在政治獻金上就出現了一個極不平衡的狀態如果在選舉裡面"},{"start":8836.468,"end":8857.251,"text":"不管是多少人參選每一個人都是受到政治獻金法的一個這個規範但是呢我們在這次被罷免裡面其實整個的政治獻金是非常非常混亂的那我看到你的回答是說你也認為即便是罷免者"},{"start":8857.932,"end":8858.633,"text":"政治制度是嚴禁的"},{"start":8878.503,"end":8893.197,"text":"不是從一開始就完美無缺所以經過不斷的實踐實驗之後該修的是應該要修我個人的意見是被罷免"},{"start":8894.807,"end":8908.787,"text":"的人要受到政治獻金法的限制但是提罷免的人目前沒有任何的這方面的沒有任何規範所以我覺得未來是可以考慮修法"},{"start":8909.532,"end":8923.903,"text":"雖然政治獻金法的主管機關並不是中選會但是這涉及了選務選舉跟罷免的公平性的確因為這樣所以我才才表示意見所以你也認為這個應該修好另外一個在這次罷免裡面"},{"start":8927.426,"end":8951.652,"text":"有一個完全回憶於過去的做法 這次中選會也被我們認為是極為不中立 而且有政治辦案之嫌就是有關於在聯署 告發聯署 錯假聯署的時間過去事實上去年大罷免並不是第一次 也不會是最後一次"},{"start":8952.452,"end":8953.512,"text":"但是中選會過去歷次針對有關於罷免的錯假連署每一個包含韓國瑜 王浩宇 陳柏惟黃婕 所有的都是在"},{"start":8967.978,"end":8990.052,"text":"投票之後然後去做告發每一個都在投票之後去做告發唯有一次例外唯有一次例外就是在去年的大罷免大家可以看到去年大罷免整個去告發錯假連署然後去偵辦錯假連署大概都是史上這個最為激烈的一次"},{"start":8990.652,"end":9008.605,"text":"那這中間就是跟中選會的告發時間有關那到底這個告發時間應該是在連署期間呢或者是在投票之後不要去影響最後的罷免結果其實應該要有一套制度的"},{"start":9009.125,"end":9028.995,"text":"但是中選會當時就是完全違反過去的做法當然就被我們認為說這個是有政治辦案的嫌疑所以這個就是中選會的業務了所以我想請問我們主委被提名人如果你擔任主委"},{"start":9030.715,"end":9046.038,"text":"針對未來夾是有這個連署 錯假連署其實這個連署還不只是罷免還有選舉也會有嗎這個你是不是應該建立一套一個可長可久的制度而不是隨著不同的情境而改變對我來講這個時候要回答這個問題的確是困難的怎麼會困難我還是要回答這個問題這個一點都不困難吧我還是回答這個問題"},{"start":9059.763,"end":9066.571,"text":"我自己也參選過 所以我也知道其實選舉期間 為了避免影響選舉"},{"start":9068.499,"end":9097.306,"text":"即便有嫌疑人涉嫌犯罪检调司法单位也都是事后侦办事前也有一些但是基本上不会这么做所以我不了解大坝棉去年实际的状况他们是怎么样做成决定我不了解那是一页沧桑史我觉得事后可以再去检讨改进"},{"start":9098.15,"end":9109.103,"text":"我特別指出這個 這個其實完全是技術性的借選完全是技術 借選有非常多種 好不好 因為我時間到了 不耽誤下面時間 謝謝謝謝 感謝王宏威委員資訊我們現在習新穎委員"},{"start":9124.69,"end":9130.04,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請這個主委被提名人請阿友教授"},{"start":9138.002,"end":9155.457,"text":"这个我们游教授好那本席想请教您这个您应该知道现在AI时代的来临那AI的身为技术也已经成为全球民主的威胁是"},{"start":9156.238,"end":9183.208,"text":"那您被提名为这个中选会的主委所以今天本席的质询要为我们的民主宪政找到疫苗那我们台湾民主的选举呢绝对不能被破坏也不能被不信任台湾的民主如果被破坏那就不战而亡这点您认同吧完全赞同对所以近年来AI身为技术您"},{"start":9184.048,"end":9203.746,"text":"这个是不是有所观察或者是您的了解是如何现在全球民主都受到AI身为技术的威胁很多国家都发生过类似的案例您有没有一些体会或观察的心得当然有我觉得"},{"start":9205.268,"end":9218.947,"text":"AI所帶來的新的時代假訊息的衝刺氾濫這是所有的民主國家必須要去面對的而且是一個挑戰也可能是一個噩夢但是應該要嚴正以待"},{"start":9221.578,"end":9237.287,"text":"那现在我们的选罢法的机制大部分是事后追究责任那没有办法挡住选前特别选前24小时48小时的这种假讯息的洪水"},{"start":9238.067,"end":9267.064,"text":"针对这一块本系想请教您是否支持您如果就任中选会主委之后能够主动推动这个选罢法的修订应该要纳入一些预防性的条款例如强制要求一些平台他一定要标记标记我这个平台展现出来的影片或是照片图像他是AI生成的内容而且"},{"start":9267.944,"end":9295.725,"text":"也要賦予中選會針對經過鑑識是身為的影音或是圖像呢有權下令做緊急處置針對這一塊您的看法是我的看法是這樣中選會只是一個不到60個人的一個單位長期以來這個努力於顯霧的行政那對於這一個"},{"start":9298.69,"end":9318.605,"text":"當前這麼巨大的一個時代的巨變所衍生的這些問題恐怕不是中選會單獨可以承擔的所以我本席第一個主要的是說你如果擔任主委你可以推動一些修法有法依據法令"},{"start":9319.105,"end":9338.783,"text":"那相關單位就可以來進行那你中選會是很重要辦選務必須要公平公正甚至你要讓整個的選舉過程合乎民主程序所以您是否會主動推動選罷法的修訂納入針對現在AI身為的一些預防性條款"},{"start":9339.884,"end":9354.462,"text":"我覺得這是一不容辭應該這麼做但是必須要建立在這個非常好的扎實的研究的基礎上面然後才能夠提出來"},{"start":9356.936,"end":9382.552,"text":"當然啦但是現在很多實務上非常的需要那剛剛您也已經有稍微提到就是說整個的修法如果只靠中選會可能會遇到相關部會互踢皮球我想您大概也有預期所以本席也想請教您上任之後如何確保您跟NCC速發部的一些實質的合作"},{"start":9384.471,"end":9411.409,"text":"我們主觀上當然是願意的就是很多事情事實上就是跨部會必須要去共同面對的那是否願意發起跨部會的這種專案小組那來制定一套可操作的這個預防機制而不能讓我們整個民主選舉民主制度的這個防護網呢最後被破壞在中選會的職權範圍內該怎麼做"},{"start":9414.162,"end":9428.381,"text":"就怎么做而且要全力去做好这个大原则方向很好那现在就说您如果就任后整个的修法如果来不及可是"},{"start":9429.827,"end":9457.364,"text":"马上选举就到了这个AI的假讯息爆发怎么办那中选会会不会有一些行政备案譬如说透过行政命令要求平台在选举期间加强审核以及跟事实查核中心进行24小时的热线等等这些问题我猜您大概还没想过据我知道中选会这方面已经有一套做法"},{"start":9458.405,"end":9466.965,"text":"就是说上次我们才质询我们的召委王召委也很认同的我不知道中选会送来了没"},{"start":9468.778,"end":9487.756,"text":"我不曉得中選會送來沒有我現在是被提名人那您就表達您的立場我覺得就這個部分來講這個所謂身為的這些照片這些影響他是直接影響到選民跟候選人所以"},{"start":9489.031,"end":9505.971,"text":"中選會能夠做的大概是怎麼樣在第一時間降低他的傷害而不是根本上解決這個假訊息的問題中選會要主動積極建立這個綠色通道讓這整個能夠不受影響因為那樣的一個問題的存在是"},{"start":9506.852,"end":9536.123,"text":"跨政黨的噩夢不是只有哪一個特定政黨我們不是為特定政黨這個選舉的公平公正很重要主委所以這個AI的偽造像洪水猛獸我們希望預防勝於治療中選會一定要主動修法不然我們的民主會淪為科技戰場的犧牲品這一塊我們希望如果您能夠順利擔任主委的話這個部分一定要落實而且堅持住好不好"},{"start":9536.343,"end":9547.391,"text":"我們嚴正以待 嚴肅以待好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝習慶雲委員執行我們家葉延之委員麻煩請那個游教授游教授"},{"start":9566.738,"end":9594.408,"text":"右岩好 右教授好 這樣跟右教授請教一下在我們選罷法裡面有規定如果要罷免的話要一年之後才能夠進行那你覺得當初選罷法會這樣子規定的原因是什麼為什麼不是立刻選完之後就可以搞罷免一定要一年後我猜想立法者大概也意識到這個不要讓這個當選完之後立刻面臨當選人被罷免的情境不要說這個"},{"start":9596.058,"end":9623.253,"text":"讓人家輸不起就搞罷免嘛應該是這樣吧總是要讓人家做個一年看看做得好不好再來決定要不要罷免嘛但是在這個李靖勇前主委前主委在這邊我也問過他一樣的問題他說沒有不可以啊現在的法律是沒有不可以啊換句話說如果我選上了輸給我的人輸不起他可能覺得說在選舉過程當中有什麼失誤或他覺得他想要再拚翻盤的機會"},{"start":9624.312,"end":9633.848,"text":"他在敗選的隔天他跟他的團隊就可以來搞罷免這個是我們現在法律規定就是這樣嗎您的看法"},{"start":9635.265,"end":9659.844,"text":"我看怎麼詮釋啦我覺得選舉結束之後如果有國民不滿選舉結果不滿當選人所以他會對他講出很多負面的話說要罷免等等等等那是屬於言論自由的範圍言論自由當然都尊重但是如果是由敗選的那一方或其政黨"},{"start":9660.845,"end":9681.902,"text":"在背後煽動發起的你覺得這有符合民主的常態嗎因為以目前的法律的規定事實上也是一年之後才能夠進行罷免像中選會才能夠 可是問題是輸的人他可以在輸的隔天就開始規劃 煽動然後搞大罷免嘛"},{"start":9682.262,"end":9710.018,"text":"我們去年看到的狀況就是這樣雖然民進黨嘴巴不講是他們發動的但柯建民總召就很誠實嘛他在接受媒體訪問的時候就說在投票的隔天還是隔兩天就去找過賴總統啊這在他媒體訪問公開講的啊怎麼透過罷免去扭轉國會的席次嘛在我們那一區包括我們國民黨很多立委的選區都一樣啊發動罷免推動罷免最用力的就是輸的那一方嘛我那一區就是這樣啊"},{"start":9710.882,"end":9729.645,"text":"他的我在那個罷免說明會我有公開資料啊他輸給我的那個立委的服務處主任沒多久就成立了一個就加入一個這個罷免的社團在推動然後不然就是想要取而代之的民進黨的人主要在推動嘛那這是民主常態嗎你覺得是嗎"},{"start":9730.959,"end":9744.412,"text":"當然不是 這是政治問題啦對啊 那問題是法律規範不嚴謹或中選會的暗住就會造成這樣反民主的狀況出現嘛所以如果說您當主委當然中選會是辦選務的機關但您也是洞見觀瞻啊"},{"start":9749.616,"end":9777.299,"text":"如果是您的話 您覺得要怎麼去結合您的未來的職務讓這種反民主的狀況繼續發生我們只能夠依法行政 就中選會的角度來講但是以我作為一個政治學者的角度來講我長期以來反對在國會議員的層次 立委來存在一個罷免制度因為全世界先進民主國家沒有哪一個國家的國會議員"},{"start":9779.554,"end":9805.286,"text":"美國的聯邦參議員 眾議員當選之後面臨被罷免沒有的 制度上就不存在這種可能性但是台灣也許這個就是說在孫中山先生的思想底下然後去制定的選舉罷免創制復建那個那個是這樣子因為我們國家不可能沒有罷免因為走到這一步不可能沒有罷免 但是"},{"start":9805.966,"end":9831.031,"text":"應該是怎麼去完善那個罷免的制度比如說現在因為罷免的門檻比較低它只要兩成五嘛所以就會讓選輸的人覺得有機可乘怎麼透過大罷免去扭轉剛剛產生的民意這就是我覺得制度造成的漏洞但是大罷免結果其實對社會非常傷害像我們那一區就出現非常多的對立包括家庭"},{"start":9832.61,"end":9858.702,"text":"長輩跟子女之間也因為立場不一樣罷免的仇恨的煽動彼此不和甚至有女兒離開家庭都有我覺得這個是當初發動大罷免的人他可能沒有顧慮到那麼多但這絕對不會只是政治的問題這是整個社會的問題它會影響到整個社會因為我覺得這個事情是非常嚴重沒有正當性的罷免那時候罷免我的被推出來的領銜人用了一個理由"},{"start":9859.73,"end":9870.835,"text":"2023年葉元之怎麼樣怎麼樣所以要罷免葉元之我2024才做立委就是說因為剛選完就要搞罷免他也找不出什麼理由他就是這樣隨便亂講這個就是罷免制度的漏洞"},{"start":9871.977,"end":9889.562,"text":"其實我們對這個未來的主委啦或是這個郵教 現在的郵教授充滿了期待啦覺得到時候如果在一些法令的解釋 詮釋甚至改革上面希望說您可以更積極的去讓我們的台灣更民主 更健全我一定會這麼做好 謝謝"},{"start":9899.356,"end":9920.883,"text":"謝謝我們感謝葉延之委員質詢在這被提名人游一龍先生之說明跟答詢已經結束了被提名人游一龍先生可以先離席"},{"start":9922.349,"end":9931.583,"text":"我們休息十分鐘繼續我們再來審福博院先生的審查謝謝大家大家辛苦了"},{"start":10558.871,"end":10567.653,"text":"我們現在繼續進行比提名人胡柏諺先生的說明和詢問請中選委員比提名人並為副主任委員胡柏諺先生說明謝謝"},{"start":10591.699,"end":10612.779,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位委員我是胡博焱很榮幸有這個機會受行政院的信任而被提名擔任這樣的職務的工作那我也希望這個是一個這幾年來我們都看到台灣其實不只是在立法院在每個地方政治的抗爭性都非常大我想"},{"start":10613.76,"end":10632.604,"text":"政治不是只有抗爭也有很多討論跟協調這件事情而我們其實這個委員會呢目前的七位提名人基本上來講來自各個不同的黨派其實以目前的地方選委會的態勢是一樣的那說實在的相比"},{"start":10633.117,"end":10659.551,"text":"我們內政委員會可能處理的像內政部的事情或是其他部會中選會是一個行政動能很小那嚴格來講處理的事情也比較單純但是雖然它是單純的但是這件事情其實處理不好就會動搖國本的這事情那但是呢中選會其實剛剛主委提名有提過說我們其實原而編制也不過才60個人就像地方選舉委員會也不過才200多個人"},{"start":10661.3,"end":10686.458,"text":"所以呢我們雖然有七個提名人但是大概只有主委跟副主委需要兩個值日生來負責擦黑板倒血的這樣的工作這個就由游老師跟我來擔任但是重要的是這七個人其實在未來在決定事情上面以及現在的四位委員在未來決定事情上面來講在這個委員會當中而言每個人的決定的份量是一樣的而這也是體現這一個國家在處理選舉事務當中而言"},{"start":10690.24,"end":10701.349,"text":"各黨各派在處理事務當中都有應該要發言的地位而我們希望藉由這一次的審查可以讓我們國家可以走得更順利謝謝謝謝我們這裡電視台有他的詢問詢問質詢不好意思"},{"start":10721.058,"end":10743.386,"text":"謝謝主席我們請被提名人胡伯彥教授胡伯彥教授被提名人好我想剛剛你有說明就是這一次的話基本上是由各黨派來推薦也是我們進入到立法院將近兩年來第一次的人事審查"},{"start":10743.874,"end":10772.297,"text":"是由各黨派來推薦我們當然也希望說能夠有這樣一個好的結果那當然就是今天有幾個題目要這個就教於您那首先呢是在我們提問的一個問題當中針對中選會是否有權審查立法院的公投提案那您的書面回答得非常清楚就是依公投法第15條第二項立法院交付案件排除人民提案審核的程序"},{"start":10772.799,"end":10797.987,"text":"就法律解釋上應該沒有審查的適用你甚至說立法院交付本為政治決定在邏輯上不該由中選會進行合法的審查所以我在這邊請您先把你的立場講清楚你的意思是不是只要立法院三讀通過交付到中選會這樣的公投案其實中選會的角色就是依法辦理呢"},{"start":10798.669,"end":10814.775,"text":"我認為一件事情就是就這個法律條文解釋的邏輯上面來講因為它排除了第九條到第十三條的適用所以在這個時候如果中選會審查必須要回到一件事情上面來講就像以前所講的就是請你間斷回答是不是一個政策是不是因為在您的報告裡面在這個選擇上面來講就會是如何而且不是只有這個條文因為我們還有防衛性公投"},{"start":10824.318,"end":10844.985,"text":"的問題就是如果這是您的回答嗎所以是不是就是應該遇到這個有立法院三路通過交付中選會的這樣的一個公投案中選會的角色就是依法辦理對是好那所以不能再用什麼非重大決策或是合法性把它擋下來是嗎"},{"start":10845.694,"end":10864.341,"text":"我認為這個問題的憲政問題應該是要由大法官來去解決那接下來也就是我要請教您的就是您認為如果真的有憲政問題的話那您覺得中選會雖然是獨立行政的一個機關但認為行政權的一部分並非憲政機關所以憲政上的爭議"},{"start":10865.501,"end":10889.813,"text":"依照憲法應該交由大法官來處理這是您的回覆所以針對這個部分中選會他不是憲政的機關所以中選會如果過度介入只會讓選務複雜這也是您在回覆中提到的所以我要問的更直接一點就是中選會直接駁回公投案是不是嚴重的越權了也僭越了大法官的職權"},{"start":10891.089,"end":10905.795,"text":"我其實在之前的研究報告有提出來一件事情是說中選會如果直接把人家駁回的話應該在法條裡面規範讓他立即可以去申請大官釋憲由大法官去解決這樣的憲章的爭議我認為如果從我剛剛的研究報告立場上面來講從這個立場其實是可以讓他駁回但是"},{"start":10912.277,"end":10936.873,"text":"後面接續的就是馬上那個憲法解釋的問題可是中選會沒有權利嘛沒有權利駁回我們的公投案嘛如果照你剛剛的論點的話我們應該就是要辦理嘛那如果認為有問題的話再送交這個把憲政機關請申請釋憲的問題嘛所以這個部分的話就是好那其他機關是不是有辦法全力解釋違憲的問題"},{"start":10940.235,"end":10964.262,"text":"對 行政機關可不可以解釋違憲的問題實際上來講每個行政機關基本上來講都是在依據憲法來做成決定但是呢 最終而言決定有沒有違憲的問題的時候就要變成是大法官那所以說針對這個軍人加薪跟提高警校人員所得替代率的法律是否違憲 其實應該不是行政院長說了算吧"},{"start":10965.082,"end":10980.795,"text":"應該是要申請這個大法官釋憲由大法官來決定那在還沒有宣判違憲之前是不是就是合乎憲法在您這個法律學者的我覺得這個憲政爭議而言應該要交由大法官來處理但是因為行政院認為他是違憲的"},{"start":10984.117,"end":11000.48,"text":"行政院認為它是違憲就像定出來的某些制度內地法院也有可能認為它是違憲的你是不是針對這個部分就是只要還沒辦違憲之前就是合乎憲法只要還沒辦還沒有判違憲之前是不是就合乎憲法"},{"start":11001.328,"end":11013.744,"text":"跟委員報告就是每個行政機關他可能會認為他這個法條是違憲的所以最終他可能會去申請實現的去做處理的因為你在國會改革的審議階段你多次的公開批評在野黨的修法是違憲擴權可是當這個中選會駁回我們的公投的時候"},{"start":11019.611,"end":11044.024,"text":"你卻沉默了你卻沒有站出來講說這個部分依法的話是應該不該駁回應該要依法宣證所以我覺得站在這個立場的話我覺得被提名人你好像就是只有在監督在這個在野黨不監督執政黨敢宣出來的就是表現了一個這個好像是側翼的行為而且你的書面也回答了就是中選會是違法但是你的沉默卻證明了你也不敢得罪民進黨所以當有這樣的一個狀況的時候"},{"start":11046.592,"end":11052.568,"text":"你要如何說服我們這些被審這個審查委員你未來能夠超然獨立的行使你的職權"},{"start":11053.666,"end":11081.031,"text":"我在2015年的時候我就說我要跟蔡英文劃清界限這件事情其實報紙都有報導過這次的審查我想你要說服的是這一次被審查的委員他們的想法那另外一點呢就是我們在第一題就有提到的就是有關公投綁大選如何順利的進行那您的回答是說只要把場地租大一點分流做好工作人員增加然後提高行政效率"},{"start":11081.971,"end":11107.347,"text":"亂象107年的亂象就不會重演這是您這是您回覆的是嗎那你這樣是不是就在說明了說民進黨這幾年說公投這個107年的公投綁大選選務亂是因為這個因為公投綁大選的關係所以你現在就是在證明說當時民進黨這幾年的說法純粹就是為了政治算計而做這樣子的說謊的一個行為嗎"},{"start":11108.97,"end":11132.587,"text":"107年確實當初2018年確實公投綁大選的那一天大選日的混亂狀況這個大家都看得出來是因為選務沒有規劃好嘛所以你才會提出來說接下來你就可以把選務怎麼規劃好所以你剛回答是這樣嘛但是那一天確實就是有十個十個公投案那就是因為表示你的人力還不夠嘛你分流沒有做好嘛這是你在回答中"},{"start":11132.967,"end":11145.922,"text":"可以解決的問題的方式所以說我們這邊是不是也就代表說以前上一次的2018年的公投中選會沒有辦好是因為人的問題是因為人無能而不是因為並大選"},{"start":11148.104,"end":11171.1,"text":"所以你在回答問題我覺得在2018年確實選務工作做得不完善所以說是因為這樣所以這幾年民進黨一直在講說公投綁大選造成選務的混亂其實不是嘛因為公投綁大選事實上是真正能夠展現民意真正讓每個民眾能夠有機會去表達他自己的意志的時間嘛所以我想您在這個整個回覆中也已經"},{"start":11172.322,"end":11200.984,"text":"已經這樣子充分的回答了說您針對公投綁大選覺得這個選務的部分其實的亂象不是因為綁大選而是因為行政座有沒有做好嗎是這樣嗎因為其他國家有些國家確實是沒有綁大選那我認為說如果真的要綁大選我們就必須要把選務工作處理做正因為在你過去的一些言論跟立場事實上你是反對公投綁大選的那當然今天我在研究報告是寫我支持"},{"start":11201.924,"end":11218.892,"text":"對 你在你的但是你看喔你在這個在這個自由時報的這個博弈說法對 專欄裡面我寫你是這個空頭綁大選只會毀了公投本質喔這你以前的說法對那我們希望說不要因為今天是未來來擔任副主委所以你就改變你過去的說法到底我們要相信哪個你"},{"start":11219.292,"end":11237.789,"text":"是公投同意公投綁大選的你還是反對公投綁大選因為我們現在法條已經改了我們未來就是要因應一件事情就是要綁大選我們要預防的一件事情就是2018年的那個狀況出現希望您不要是因為為了要擔任這個副主委這個職務而去出賣您原來的一個這個"},{"start":11238.83,"end":11250.658,"text":"請自己的一個學術的一個良知還是希望您能夠如果未來你有幸能夠擔任副主委的話一定要秉持公正超然獨立的立場來行使職權謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝徐益臻委員質詢大家無時要委員質詢"},{"start":11272.101,"end":11299.578,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們被提名人副主委被提名人胡老師胡教授教授首先我想要先分享喔有一個就是被歐巴馬總統任命的第一位女性的這個司法部長哈佛的第一位的女性院長叫做Elena Kagan2010年歐巴馬提名她那這位美國的女性大法官他有一句名言"},{"start":11300.39,"end":11321.12,"text":"我觉得想要分享给大家也许胡教授您也非常的了解这句名言了他说my politics would be must be have to becompletely separatefrom my judgment意思是我有我个人的政治意识的形态我有我个人的政治"},{"start":11322.089,"end":11338.537,"text":"傾向或是我的政治主張但是這跟我的判決是完全兩碼子事他是完全會抽離的當他成為大法官的那一天他勢必要專業的去判準他的每一個判決而且依據憲法"},{"start":11339.717,"end":11361.642,"text":"所以他的politics每個人有自己的politics我有您有每一個委員都有但是當大家被提名成為中選會的委員未來渴望上任的時候請切記超越黨派超越個人的政治意識形態首先合法是必要的我相信胡教授非常同意這位Elena Kagan她的主張"},{"start":11362.406,"end":11391.395,"text":"其实也是物资要我个人的主张所以说下一页我刚刚在垂询这个主委被提名人游云龙先生的时候我也提到成功选务的三要素就是公正效率跟便民而中选会委员的四要件独立专业公正跟首先手法首先手法非常的重要唯有回到首先手法的基准我们才能够超越自己的politics"},{"start":11391.855,"end":11415.354,"text":"自己的政治意識的型態 您同意嗎同意那麼在首先守法的這個範圍裡頭我對於剛剛因為時間有限游盈隆被提名人 主委的被提名人他一直長期在論述的他個人認為這個罷免是災難的這件事情我尊重他的言論自由但是如果今天"},{"start":11416.713,"end":11429.818,"text":"成為中選會未來要獨立行使職權而且是首先守法的主委的時候回歸憲法的精神就非常重要憲法第17條所規範的人民有選舉罷免創制復決之權這是中華民國的憲法"},{"start":11434.716,"end":11452.914,"text":"所以人民依據憲法所提出的罷免我希望過去的游盈隆學者跟未來的游盈隆主委他的主張勢必要首先合法要脫離他個人的politics那您怎麼看這個命題呢您怎麼看待人民發起的大罷免"},{"start":11453.578,"end":11481.243,"text":"包委員我這個意見其實跟委員一樣但是我不要我其實某些方面也是認為說罷免制度其實在很多國家現在目前其實是被檢討的但是我們確實在憲法17條就寫的我們有罷免的權利這個是我們沒有辦法去否定的一件事情因為他寫在憲法裡面人民委員會跑來跟你講說我就可以罷免誰所以說首先手法很重要"},{"start":11482.811,"end":11511.669,"text":"個人作為學者的身份可以有自己的政治主張但一旦被提名成為國家的中選會的委員的時候首先手法就是重要的基準請尊重人民依據憲法所發動的基本公民權而我更要說大罷免是人民發動的而大惡罷才是國民黨發動的吳斯堯我本人就是受害者就是當事人我到現在還是中華民國史上被罷免者"},{"start":11512.148,"end":11531.805,"text":"的最高被偽造連署的份數2674份這份記錄負面的記錄還標記在我身上我非常的遺憾這是被發動大惡霸一方用違法的方式來僭越了來踐踏了憲法珍貴的人民父權我要在這裡提出"},{"start":11532.734,"end":11544.973,"text":"下一頁剛剛提到不再急投票我也都說即便要變名也要讓公正選舉跟選舉的效率不打折所以大家都有共識公投先行下一頁"},{"start":11546.058,"end":11572.579,"text":"各縣市政府有這樣的共識選務機關有這樣的共識所以請支持行政院的版本下一頁那回到這一頁就是說公投綁大選2018年的選務混亂只有2成8的人民同意而高達6成9的人民不滿意這就告訴我們公投綁大選需要有很好的機制配套未來好現在立法院修法通過"},{"start":11573.38,"end":11596.169,"text":"未來可能公投綁大選會再上路但是選務機關的責任就是維持他的運行不會混亂不會造成人民在選舉投票行使的不便利性那我就要問來下一頁您個人確實有主張但是我認為這個論述還是要再精確一點"},{"start":11597.233,"end":11611.804,"text":"依據公投法第10條中選會就主管機關了對於不管人民發動的罷免對不起人民發動的公投或者是立法院發動的公投你還是必須去去審核他是不是符合法律跟憲法的規範對不對"},{"start":11613.171,"end":11636.816,"text":"我是認為他還是要有初步的審核那如果有問題就直接讓他去憲法法庭去做但是現在謝謝你提供未來立法院可能在修法的一個方向但目前並沒有您所說的這個條文就是說如果在中選會在認定在審核上的判準有所異議應當由憲法法庭來做最終的審議這是"},{"start":11638.556,"end":11653.85,"text":"未來法律所沒有的而這可能也會衍生另外的問題因為憲法法庭在審議釋憲的過程還有一定的程序那人民所發動他的對於部分的主張或是立法院的公投案本身也許在時程上沒有辦法等"},{"start":11655.371,"end":11682.947,"text":"這也會有其他衍生的問題但回到現在的法律的規範如果公投綁大選要讓他能夠不至於造成選務的混亂就是我們必須精確的讓合法首先的公投案才能上路不是嗎某些方面是否則從107年到115年我調閱了中選會的資料人民發動的公投案有69案您知道中選會駁回多少案嗎"},{"start":11683.906,"end":11711.368,"text":"不知道35案成立的34案換言之有一半的比例中選會的這個把關還是需要的因為他需要在首先合法的規範公投法第二條就規範了全國性公投跟地方性公投都有適用的要件而且他要符合憲法規定所以在人民發動的公投案裡頭從107107年到115年有一半以上經過中選會的把關"},{"start":11713.53,"end":11726.619,"text":"有一半成立一半駁回這會避免了過多的公投你沒有去審核他是不是合法合憲你也必須去把關否則公投綁大選天啊2018年那種噩夢幾十案又來了同樣的立法院的公投案"},{"start":11732.779,"end":11743.817,"text":"立法院的公投案也是要守憲合法所以就像我說的用公投法的修正來推翻憲法的解釋是可以的嗎"},{"start":11744.938,"end":11768.581,"text":"是可以的嗎我覺得這個會觸犯到法治國原則的要求所以我是建議我非常理解您在法律上的一些理解但我認為發言要非常的嚴謹我也希望社會不要錯誤的解讀副主委您認為未來委員針對公投法是否合法合憲合規完全沒有那個審核把關的權利這非常危險這非常危險"},{"start":11769.682,"end":11793.23,"text":"你在审核的不是政治的意识形态而是他有没有符合国家公投的制度的法律的授权跟宪法的授权您同意吗同意我给您在最后一次去更正调整您的说法好吗对于未来如果您当选通过立法院的同意权针对人民发动的公投案跟立法院所发动的公投案您认为中选会独立机关要进行什么样子的把关"},{"start":11793.59,"end":11817.514,"text":"我認為的把關都是屬於最低限度的把關屬於最低限度不要過分的去干涉我們整個議案裡面內容避免中選會過度的逾越這件事情但是我想最低的限度的要求其實應該是可以達成的守法守憲這就是我們共同的底線好嗎依法行使職權我提醒所有的被提名人"},{"start":11817.95,"end":11828.358,"text":"沒有政治意識形態而是依法守憲做我們該做的事情這樣你就能夠有很強的底氣不受政治所威脅好嗎我們一起加油謝謝胡教授謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳斯亞委員質詢我們現在稱召之委員"},{"start":11847.3,"end":11872.171,"text":"多謝主席有請副主委被提名人胡教授雖然有委員有提到但是我對於您曾經投書媒體認為這個公學綁大頭會讓這個公投認為政黨這個對決的工具那甚至就是喪失了這個公投的這個本質這件事我還是要再請教你請問您現在對於公投綁大選還是這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":11872.771,"end":11886.881,"text":"我會認為如果可以的話讓他其實是不同天其實是一個可以的決定的選擇但是我們現在是要面對問題是法條已經修過了他就是要同天投票但是胡教授我了解你認為"},{"start":11887.842,"end":11915.155,"text":"公投綁大選可能會讓政黨來主導這個公投議題造成公投失焦可是我的想法剛好跟你相反公投基本上這個公投綁大選基本上是強迫政黨或政治人物他必須他不能迴避他必須針對這個議題去做他的主張或是表態那就是說那讓投這個選民也能夠有機會知道這個參選人他對於這個議題的這個看想法跟態度根據這個議題"},{"start":11916.375,"end":11942.496,"text":"他來做出他的選舉的決定換句話說您擔心的是這個公投會影響這個政黨會去影響公投可是我的看法剛好是相反的我認為是人民做主的公投反而會去影響這個政黨因為我相信台灣選民的數字是越來越高啊他們不見得是根據顏色去投票他們會根據議題看議題然後就來做這個選擇胡教授您贊同我的說法嗎我贊同"},{"start":11944.281,"end":11958.527,"text":"那過去的經驗我想你也非常清楚這個單獨舉行的公投他的投票率非常低資訊流通是有限的那結果往往被高度動員反而有可能讓政黨更容易去去做主導"},{"start":11959.987,"end":11978.463,"text":"綁大選你至少可以讓參與率是提高的參與率是提高讓公投的結果更能夠去反映整體選民的整體意志那您剛剛也一再提到修法已經通過了那我認為今年年底的地方選舉很可能很可能就是同時會舉辦公投那我要請問"},{"start":11980.685,"end":12000.674,"text":"這個胡教授因為您過去是反對的當然你現在要尊重這個法律已經通過的事實可是您能夠如實的去執行立法院通過的修法嗎你怎麼樣說服立法院還有台灣人民說你會按照這個修法你會公正如實的去把選務辦好呢你怎麼來說服"},{"start":12001.314,"end":12026.297,"text":"包委員我們在2018年因為公投綁大選的混亂之後因為當天有10個公投案確實造成一些混亂其實中選會在這邊其實針對整體的選務有做過改革所以在分流制度上面來講其實是已經達成了所以只要公投的案件數不會太多的話我相信其實當天可以秩序其實是可以被掌控的"},{"start":12028.698,"end":12046.327,"text":"我們是擔心所以您會不會如實去辦好這個事我會如實去辦好這件事情你的主張 我也同意你個人的主張跟這個作為有時候是可以分開的但是你的責任就是要遵守你的責任我想請教你對不在籍投票的看法民眾黨所提的不在籍投票其實是限於台灣島內 國內"},{"start":12048.748,"end":12067.339,"text":"這個移轉投票我們希望讓這個事實上你過去參與的時代力量目前還是也是這樣主張的請問胡教授您現在是支持國內移轉投票嗎我支持國內移轉投票你支持移轉投票這樣我們可以幫助就業就學的因素而不用這個周遮勞頓回到這個戶籍地來投票那但是"},{"start":12071.621,"end":12099.546,"text":"目前不再去投票是多數國家的一個做法連這個中南亞國家包括印尼菲律賓他們都做了那你知道前年印尼大選我們台灣的警察出來幫助幫助這個這個秩序的維安所以這個是我是覺得很丟臉我們可以幫助別的國家結果我們到目前為止還不允許還不允許我們的國民能夠做這個這個移轉這個投票所以我想說是剛剛胡教授您說您是支持的"},{"start":12100.489,"end":12103.083,"text":"那我們法過了以後你也會按照這個去辦理對不對"},{"start":12104.793,"end":12130.675,"text":"我們立法院法律通過之後中選會會依據立法院所通過的選罷法等相關法規或公民投票法來處理我希望吳教授能夠遵守法律因為我們現在看太多期行政院長沒有遵守法律立法院通過的法律把它視為空氣 形同空氣那我再想請教你一件事 受刑人權利有民間團體認為非常關注受刑人跟羞辱人的投票權"},{"start":12131.576,"end":12159.862,"text":"那過去中情會認為根本不可能在在監投票那這等於完全剝奪了受刑人跟收容人的他這個憲法賦予的權利那我知道胡教授您在11月去年你也主持過在收容人投票權研討會擔任這個主持人胡教授你認為收容人跟受刑人有沒有投票權我先問你有沒有投票權有投票權只要他們沒有被褫奪公權他們就有投票權那如果有你要怎麼落實呢"},{"start":12160.543,"end":12175.303,"text":"我覺得在投開票所的設置上面來講我們因為要兼顧到公開化以及安全的問題這個部分其實我覺得不管是中選會或者法務部其實應該更努力來解決這問題因為他們有些人不是不在急有些人其實急就在監鎖"},{"start":12176.945,"end":12202.222,"text":"你提到的還是技術面問題嘛你在歐洲嘛歐洲他們就是很多人就有很多國家他就設了這個在間投票嘛這個你們你過去所屬的時代力量他們也是一直用這樣做例子嘛所以胡教授你認為是可行的嗎我認為可行這一次就可以辦了嗎年底的選舉就可以辦了嗎這個我不確定這個可能要跟幕僚機關以及各省市選委會來辦但是從我的觀點來講我一直都認為這是可以做的"},{"start":12206.206,"end":12217.751,"text":"可以做就要去做啊我也會去從我的觀點我也會去推行這件事情謝謝謝謝吳教授謝謝我們感謝陳昭芝委員質詢現在中途我們不需要休息繼續開會因為現在12點了在這裡我們鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":12248.161,"end":12265.294,"text":"福教授好原住民選舉前的困境沒有聽過吧我有聽過原住民議題我其實也有熟悉謝謝你的關注秘密投票"},{"start":12267.048,"end":12290.38,"text":"原住民很多的選舉沒有秘密投票的一個情形雖然憲法規定的很明確吳季明投票是方法行之但是因為這個原住民從原鄉到都會區工作的非常多然後遷积的也很多"},{"start":12291.317,"end":12318.474,"text":"所以相關的這些事實上在都會期原住民的人口數已經達到50%有涉戶籍的已經達到50%左右所以這樣的一個情形之下一個投票所只有一個人的就有以平地原住民來講就有966人一個投票所兩個人的以平地原住民講來說就是1034"},{"start":12321.158,"end":12345.332,"text":"如果包括三個人的總共有2900多 將近3000人那我們看山地原住民山地原住民也是一樣也有類似這樣的情形一到三人的總共有3235人所以他投票給誰啊一開票就知道他投票給誰所以他就變成說"},{"start":12347.856,"end":12365.945,"text":"會考慮是不是要不要去投票會有這樣的一個情形所以這樣的一個情形怎麼樣去保障憲法徵修條文第10條第12項保障原住民的政治參與政治參與除了參政權之外還有選舉權選舉權本席透過質詢請這個中選會要這個"},{"start":12375.97,"end":12398.441,"text":"解決秘密投票 質詢了非常非常的多次因為事實上是可以 不修法其實是可以的以公職人員選舉辦人法第57條第三項 原住民公職人員選舉得徵走實際情形 單獨設置投票所"},{"start":12399.335,"end":12427.705,"text":"或在選舉期內辦理投票事實上只有規定但是一直沒有辦法落實所以本席不得不修法所以今年 去年12月26號三讀通過為保障原住民秘密投票權益應單獨設置投票然後不受第17條第一項應在戶籍地投票之限制當初在修法的討論的時候"},{"start":12429.42,"end":12455.602,"text":"中選會還是不支持所以這樣的部分如果這個副教授能夠擔任副主委或者是其他的被提名人也能夠擔任委員希望能夠落實這次的一個修正的條例可以嗎 可以接下來談不在己投票"},{"start":12456.519,"end":12483.552,"text":"原住民組的不在己投票事實上最可以先實施的是立法委員因為原住民的立法委員的選區是台澎金所以跟總統一起選舉所以原住民要實施不在己投票是應該最優先來辦理是可以執行的因為我們每一個投票所都有我們的選民"},{"start":12485.324,"end":12506.473,"text":"都有投票所了就是移轉投票就很容易了因為每個台北市每個都有原住民的投票所所以這個部分是可以先實施的因為沒有實施所以造成我們原住民與非原住民的投票率的差異你想想看以山地原住民來講我們就講第十一屆立委"},{"start":12507.581,"end":12535.383,"text":"差距13.83%投票率平地原住民是7%多這樣的一個落差就是因為太遠了我們看這個台灣地圖一個住台北市的鄉親他要到蘭嶼投票回去他的戶籍地就很遠不要說蘭嶼就到那個屏東或是到台東都非常非常的遠而且還要到山上"},{"start":12536.563,"end":12563.251,"text":"不是到了台東火車站之後還要到山上所以這個原住民族的不載幾多票更是有它的一個需要性我看了這個印尼在台灣我們的外勞 印尼的外勞在台灣都是 都投票所以在台灣投票在台灣還不只 不是只有在台北市每個縣市都有投票所"},{"start":12564.529,"end":12587.381,"text":"像這樣他們都可以受得到這樣的一個情形我們確實做不到我們真的是要加油所以這個部分也希望我們這個胡教授以及各位被提名人到了中選會之後能夠優先支持嚴肅民主的不再起投票 可以嗎可以 沒問題謝謝我們感謝鄭天才委員資訊"},{"start":12593.547,"end":12605.055,"text":"咱家習星雲委員不在咱家省花卉委員不在葉言之不在"},{"start":12619.942,"end":12635.853,"text":"在這被提名人胡柏彥先生所申請和質詢的都已經結束完畢委員習新英提出書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":12641.408,"end":12649.752,"text":"再來我們比提名人的吳博言先生可以先離席可以先離席我們現在的休訓五分鐘"},{"start":12666.642,"end":12677.928,"text":"我們繼續國分前後繼續進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明價值詢問謝謝大家辛苦了"},{"start":12807.225,"end":12807.246,"text":"好"},{"start":13060.088,"end":13066.691,"text":"來 我們繼續開會 進行被提名人黃文玲女士之說明跟詢答請黃文玲女士說明主席"},{"start":13077.908,"end":13092.897,"text":"各位委員各位在場的先進大家午安大家好我是黃文玲那這次非常榮幸的能夠受到這個行政院提名為這次的中選會委員的被提名人"},{"start":13093.417,"end":13105.37,"text":"那今天來這裡呢也是要跟大家來分享就是說我其實民國83年就考上律師那一直擔任律師到現在那在期間呢在2012年到2020年"},{"start":13108.893,"end":13129.367,"text":"14年的時候擔任第八屆的立法委員那有短暫的時間在立法院那時候也是在內政委員會那期間呢我在過去從事這個律師的職務其實有辦理過非常多的這個選罷法的案件包括會選案當選人這個資格不私認的案子還有"},{"start":13130.087,"end":13143.859,"text":"就是譬如說有假訊息的案件等等所以在實務上或許能夠提供給未來的中選會一些建言當然我本身在2004年的時候還有2014跟18也都參與過"},{"start":13148.603,"end":13168.558,"text":"這個立法委員的選舉及彰化縣長的選舉那在選舉的過程當中當然就會有非常多的這個選務的這個這個紛爭我想那個我們主席也是就是身經百戰大家都也很清楚就是選舉可能會遇到的一些糾紛那我覺得這次的這個被提名人裡面"},{"start":13169.498,"end":13185.059,"text":"其實跟上一屆的感覺上好像比較多的出入因為上一屆我看實務界的律師有好幾位那這一次的被提名人裡面大部分都是學者專家而且都是憲政的學者專家那實務界的好像律師就只有我一人"},{"start":13185.72,"end":13207.876,"text":"那我希望說如果未來有機會擔任中選會的委員我們除了要讓中選會要保持他的獨立性中立性及公正性之外還要維護他的專業跟可信賴性那當然在這個過程之中選務的過程之中確實有非常多的可能會"},{"start":13208.576,"end":13224.58,"text":"涉及到紛爭的部分會影響到這個選務工作人員的部分所以未來如果有機會的話我們也是應該要來維護我們選務人員的尊嚴那以上那希望說就是能夠對這個中選會能夠有所貢獻謝謝謝謝 感謝說明我們這裡黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":13240.462,"end":13264.518,"text":"謝謝主席我請被提名人請讓我們被提名人是委員好好久不見我稱呼您黃律師好黃律師很高興在這邊看到你尤其是您的父親是以前非常受敬重的中選會的主委我想中選會也好或者是任何選委會的委員都需要"},{"start":13265.419,"end":13282.365,"text":"移植相關的公正跟獨立性那民主選舉的過程裡面不是只有最後一天的結果我想過程很重要過程的公平包括更多的所謂的不孝方法或者是說有一些不正當的方式造成了選舉的不公"},{"start":13283.243,"end":13300.939,"text":"那我個人比較我看到您的問卷大概到大部分都有回答不過我今天要問的是根據有關選舉的過程裡面其實最大的一塊叫做媒體不公媒體不公的部分在各個法律其都規定得非常清楚總統副總統選罷法46條還有公職人員選罷法49條在廣播電視"},{"start":13306.064,"end":13331.768,"text":"也從事選舉或罷免相關議題的論證新聞報導或邀請候選人罷免案提議人或被罷免人的參加節目要公正公平處理不可以有無正當理由的差別待遇但是這麼多年來我相信你也選過去我們只要是非所謂主流媒體的支持的對象大概都會在很多媒體中被消失"},{"start":13332.632,"end":13355.456,"text":"包括在我想去年的總統大選也非常的清楚2024的總統大選非常清楚的是某個藍媒綠媒現在已經台灣人都有一定的既定的印象你會看到有一些藍媒看不到綠色的綠媒看不到藍色的那更糟糕的像台灣民眾黨我們是中間所以兩邊都看不到"},{"start":13356.877,"end":13369.665,"text":"這個部分我們曾經也提出過很嚴肅的控訴NCC有回答說查無證據我們也有檢舉但是回去要給中選會所以我們就不禁要去查到在101年"},{"start":13370.939,"end":13393.91,"text":"在105年其實中選會都曾經對於媒體沒有邀請平衡報導或者是沒有邀請到這些所有的參選人而開罰的紀錄我想請問您您對第一媒體在選舉過程中沒有依法行事第二個105年到現在已經快10年了沒有成案任何一個媒體處罰"},{"start":13394.95,"end":13407.785,"text":"所以反而我們會懷念您父親當時當中選會主委的時候我們還有道德勇氣對媒體做相關的裁罰如果有這樣的案子我想知道您的想法跟您對於選舉公平應該在媒體上面怎麼樣來維護中選會的獨立性跟公正性"},{"start":13414.648,"end":13440.233,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想剛剛你提到這個部分其實我深受感同因為我其實我在2014年到18年這兩次彰化縣長選舉我就是以無黨籍的身份參選但是確實是媒體就是全部都把我們的新聞全部都消失掉被消失掉所以我可以感受到就是說就是選委會在這個"},{"start":13441.253,"end":13469.324,"text":"办理选举的过程之中其实他是必须要秉持公正客观的态度而且专业的部分那至于就是特定的媒体那他们是不是可以就针对这个部分就是被选举人就是没有做公平的报导的部分是不是应该裁罚的部分其实我记得我那时候有去抗议过但是似乎是好像没有作用因为他们认为那个是NCC的NCC的"},{"start":13469.764,"end":13499.025,"text":"所以這就是我們今天中選會其實在101年曾經罰過當時是華視在政見發表會後沒有播出某個候選人的會後記者會被裁罰了20萬所以我基本的該有的所以我認為中選會應該要有基本的就是法律的價值它的價值就是要維護選舉的公正公平然後每個候選人都能夠在媒體上能夠"},{"start":13500.236,"end":13523.266,"text":"被揭露我想大家都可能很清楚的知道這個公正性的確在現今的台灣媒體環境裡面做不到但是我相信中選會應該要做到中選會如果中選會還有道德勇氣的話我們10年來都沒有成過半子案子但是105年那時候還有某些節目只邀請特地的候選人還有"},{"start":13523.886,"end":13550.982,"text":"只邀請某些特定的沒有給予其他選區同樣的候選人相同的機會就被裁罰了40萬跟20萬這是我想中選會委員必須要秉持的一個所以他們那個時候的中選會委員可能有道德勇氣才會做這樣的一個裁量所以我們也期待我們未來有機會擔任委員的話也希望能夠秉持這樣一個立場是 只要依法就好公平就好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13554.807,"end":13580.545,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝黃珊珊委員被提名人黃文玲女士在說明和詢問已經結束我們被提名人黃文玲女士可以先行離席我們先睡午飯 謝謝"},{"start":13586.098,"end":13586.418,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13626.032,"end":13650.515,"text":"這邊推線的在左下角那十字在右邊的"},{"start":13655.179,"end":13669.991,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13671.596,"end":13690.077,"text":"嘿嘿 請說我是有私家寶寶嘿嘿 請說"},{"start":13691.08,"end":13709.97,"text":"那個要不要就是因為我們就是只有我們一個人咨詢一個人教育看他的狀況但是我覺得就是對我等一下去跟他溝通好了因為我們因為目前的話我們咨詢的人就我們咨詢"},{"start":13717.598,"end":13719.1,"text":"可以可以拖8分8分多"},{"start":13768.468,"end":13774.39,"text":"報告人是8分鐘對 說明大概幾分鐘"},{"start":13782.907,"end":13783.947,"text":"沒關系 因為我也在三樓謝謝"},{"start":13821.237,"end":13826.985,"text":"還有一個是說明文在這裡所以它還有一定程度就說大概是不同的程度"},{"start":13833.2,"end":13851.351,"text":"對 只要是看過一輩子的經驗只要是看過一輩子的經驗還有一塊沒有來過的經驗有一個有一個有人在樓上有黑的有黑的有黑的有黑的有黑的有黑的有黑的"},{"start":13865.166,"end":13866.408,"text":"每次都會把我"},{"start":13890.97,"end":13899.397,"text":"來 我們繼續來開會我們繼續進行被提名人李立忠先生的說明跟詢問請中選會委員被提名人李立忠先生說明"},{"start":13914.933,"end":13939.762,"text":"王主席還有各位委員還有我們張秘書長還有各位在座的先生跟女士我是李禮仲那很高興這次被我們行政院提名為中央選舉委員會委員的被提名人那我在此報告那我們都知道民主選舉制度乃是憲政秩序與民主制度的一個核心"},{"start":13941.042,"end":13958.814,"text":"那它的公正性跟可信賴性跟穩定性直接關係人民對我們台灣民主的一個信賴的關鍵中央選舉委員會肩負了選舉與公民投票的規劃執行與監督的重任"},{"start":13959.969,"end":13986.108,"text":"其專業性、獨立性跟依法行政對於民主制度之健全運作具有關鍵的意義唐友信擔任中央選舉委員會一職個人將超越黨派以維護憲法精神確保選舉公平強化制度信賴為最高自我期許"},{"start":13987.691,"end":14002.568,"text":"然而 擔任中央選舉委員會委員並非權力之所在而是責任與信賴之所跡本能之抱負在於以專業 理性與公正"},{"start":14003.829,"end":14021.02,"text":"首先合法協助台灣建構一個經得起政治競爭社會檢驗與歷史評價的選舉制度為我們民主發展盡一份長期而穩定的力量以上報告謝謝各位"},{"start":14024.757,"end":14042.092,"text":"謝謝 感謝說明因為沒有委員長去接訊所以我們的李立中的說明告加加倍提名人李立中先生可以先行離席我們休訓兩分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":14047.749,"end":14053.594,"text":"有機會這樣議席議席要來聽一些大家留意的意見這樣也很好謝謝 辛苦辛苦有機會這樣"},{"start":14083.74,"end":14091.965,"text":"哎呀"},{"start":14107.773,"end":14120.862,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14137.364,"end":14138.545,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14172.551,"end":14187.7,"text":"來 我們繼續再來開會繼續進行被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生之說明跟詢問我們這裡中選會委員被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生說明"},{"start":14196.331,"end":14209.596,"text":"主席、秘書長、麥委員還有全體的女士們、先生們我是福音科技大學蘇嘉鴻蘇老師我在這個學校任教"},{"start":14213.634,"end":14237.542,"text":"已經有32年的歷史在去年因為種種的機緣巧合被推薦被提名所以有這個機會來這邊接受大家的提問我在這裡想要講兩件事情第一件事情"},{"start":14239.912,"end":14263.07,"text":"從早上到現在所有的委員們對被提名人的提問大概聚焦在幾件事情上面大概不外就是公投綁大選以及不在籍投票另外還有其他的問題不管怎麼樣這都是一個值得追求的"},{"start":14265.683,"end":14269.535,"text":"未來方向 它是一個值得追求的未來方向"},{"start":14270.612,"end":14296.245,"text":"但是我們必須要很誠實的去面對中選會現在當前的行政量能未來的考驗其實都在於未來的中選會能不能在自己的行政量能上面有所擴張 有所深化來因應這些挑戰"},{"start":14298.456,"end":14315.529,"text":"所以在一個值得追求的方向它代表了一種進步的價值但與此同時我們對於中選會的目前的行政量能卻沒有與時俱增的一種調整這完全是不現實的"},{"start":14317.113,"end":14342.875,"text":"那中選會的組織編制據說是57個然後預算編制是55個總之他不會超過60個人那地方選委會是負責選務工作所以不管是境外的或者是這個省委的啦等等的這些各式各樣的挑戰"},{"start":14344.164,"end":14364.542,"text":"那麼中選會其實是沒有辦法回應這個現代的時代需求跟社會的這樣的殷切的期待所以在這種情況之下我認為就是我要講的第二點中選會的委員們應該是要專任的目前是無幾職"},{"start":14368.72,"end":14390.733,"text":"NCC跟公平會都是專任的以兼任的 兼職的 無給職的委員要來因應這些剛剛講過的重重的挑戰實在是分身乏術幸好此時此刻的審查會是在這個禮拜"},{"start":14396.977,"end":14408.372,"text":"如果是在上週上上週的話是學期最後一週要辦這個期末考要監考要印考卷什麼的怎麼可能來呢怎麼可能來呢"},{"start":14410.928,"end":14426.062,"text":"要把本職工作薪水顧好所以這個工作這麼艱鉅對委員來講確實無幾值的艱值這是一個很奇特的現象所以我們必須要讓獨立機關的獨立性因為委員的踴躍性獲得保障"},{"start":14431.414,"end":14459.511,"text":"那這個機關才能夠因應未來的這麼一些更多的一個挑戰那麼第二件事情就是說那麼有關於這個選舉罷免的訴訟選罷法的這個訴訟目前都還是在民事法院裡面它明明是公法訴訟那這個部分我們可能在未來也可以再重新做個調整跟思考以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":14462.813,"end":14468.054,"text":"謝謝感謝說明我們這裡定期麥一貞委員質詢謝謝主席 有請蘇老師蘇老師謝謝老師好 真的辛苦了"},{"start":14491.909,"end":14520.225,"text":"所以我們想要請問一下 因為現在的選舉制度 你有說了就是憲政由內政部主管 選務由中選會負責的分立設計原意在於落實責任政治就是維護選舉的中立但你也指出 實務上因為全職的交"},{"start":14521.205,"end":14525.109,"text":"交換所以呢往往就是導致改革就是實地甚至使中選會受制於行政關係難以回應高度流動社會於新型的風險所以呢我想要請教兩點第一在維持分立的架構下你認為"},{"start":14545.726,"end":14566.587,"text":"中選會應清楚定位以依法執行選務的獨立機關而非非推上政治的正義第一線第二若短期能維持分立體制是否通過交錯的任期專任化外部專家參與度透明等的"},{"start":14569.85,"end":14581.795,"text":"制度設計就是逐步強化中選會獨立性與公信力我們要的就是可以獨立作業嗎 這樣子的一個目標"},{"start":14583.49,"end":14599.127,"text":"是的 我原您的提問通通都是我的答案我就是肯定的很好 所以在我們的問卷裡面也有回覆指出說選舉權不是刑"},{"start":14602.45,"end":14627.319,"text":"形式的權利 而是國家必要積極保障的基本權 當人民因為求學啊 就業啊 或者服役或執勤無法返回戶籍投票的時候 我國家就是要提供替代制度 實質上就是就限制其他投票 並"},{"start":14629.657,"end":14651.275,"text":"對年輕人還有流動人口造成不平等所以我們你認為在就是本人到場還有身份查驗也秘密投票的前提下國內移轉投票在實質上不是便利措施是"},{"start":14652.703,"end":14679.331,"text":"國家例行憲法保障參政的必要制度你也強調說國內轉移投票不同於資訊或者電子投票風險可控不宜被過度上網為國安問題那麼有立法完成不在籍投票的法治化的那個就是投票的法治化"},{"start":14680.154,"end":14692.15,"text":"你是否認為中選會在制度設計就是執行上應如何就是權力就是最大為原則從如何讓更合格"},{"start":14694.151,"end":14719.637,"text":"選民安全投票出發因為現在很多地方就是各國等於是說印尼 菲律賓他們都是可以就是在台灣在投票但是我在這邊強調的是說我們的民眾黨說的就是在台灣 在台灣 在台灣是移轉投票而已所以你覺得是說這樣子我們能做得到嗎"},{"start":14722.06,"end":14732.037,"text":"以目前國內的移轉投票我認為中選會可能步步為營也是步步為營"},{"start":14736.456,"end":14762.416,"text":"贏得勝利的贏這件事情我覺得中選會可能還可以勉強地跟上社會的需求但是如果我們繼續做民主深化的話我們還要再做其他更大的發展的話以目前我再強調一次我所了解到的中選會的行政量能"},{"start":14763.217,"end":14770.194,"text":"是做不到的所以必須要有所調整才能夠因應時代的變遷回應社會的需求以上"},{"start":14771.394,"end":14797.699,"text":"中選會應該做得到現在我們是台灣是科技國家所以這個是說應該要做得到不是說還在不一定做得到我覺得這個是已經我們台灣已經應該要做得到的所以接下來我想要請教一下因為現在就是兩岸人民的關係明定大陸地區人民在"},{"start":14798.919,"end":14822.035,"text":"涉及滿10年還有我是外配也是滿10年就是依法登記為公職候選人但是立法則憲法徵定條文裡面第11條所做出了特別規範但近期引發就是行政機關用國籍法張大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14828.839,"end":14846.645,"text":"人民比例外國人額外要求放棄所謂的外國國籍形同就是以行政解釋架空的特別法所以你在這邊也是就是你說理解所以你也是說依法依法就是涉及滿十年原則是大陸地區的人民"},{"start":14855.329,"end":14858.417,"text":"參政權是否以憲法保障的基本權應用優先"},{"start":14861.977,"end":14883.388,"text":"因為在我們的兩岸條款這邊就是說優先應用所以排除國籍法的類型就是來去適用所以在目前我們的部會法律見解出現就十分之甚至有行政官員公開宣稱說陸配參政權已使的情況下你是否認為說中選會因依特別法"},{"start":14891.392,"end":14891.612,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":14909.546,"end":14936.522,"text":"台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例相對於國籍法民法諸多的相關涉及的法律目前就是一種特別法優先適用於普通法的這樣的一種法律適用關係這是沒有疑問的如果啦在這個特別法的跟普通法的這種優先適用關係不成立的話"},{"start":14937.608,"end":14960.664,"text":"那大陸地區人民來台 繼承這個遺產的上限兩百兩百萬可能就會怎麼樣呢那就不用遵守了 回到民法它的印記份或者是什麼樣的那都很可能超過兩百萬所以這個特別法的問題 這是第一個第二個 這個叫做期待可能性"},{"start":14961.765,"end":14988.512,"text":"如果中國大陸是沒有放棄國籍的這樣的一種法治的話強要我們的大陸配偶回去大陸去放棄國籍在客觀上沒有其他可能性強人民之所難以此來剝奪人民的參政權這個我不能認同 以上報告"},{"start":14989.073,"end":15012.654,"text":"好謝謝再給我一分鐘謝謝主席謝謝我們的老師給我們的說明所以我常講的就是說我們不要因出勝地來去決定我們在台灣的我們拿身份證是跟我們國民一模模一樣樣參選也是一模模一樣樣的當選也是一模模一樣樣不要再拿出勝地來去"},{"start":15013.794,"end":15034.109,"text":"就是在台灣努力的人所以在最後就是請教我們的教授你在問卷中也多次強調選舉制度的核心不在政治操作的便利而在憲法持續的穩定以及人民參政權是否能對實質保障在"},{"start":15038.292,"end":15042.393,"text":"這樣子的一個關鍵問題你是否未來擔任中選會的委員在面對高度的政治爭議或跨部會法律的見解的分支時你將如何具體拿捏中選會作為獨立機關的分機確保制度解釋回到法律明定性與憲政的原則"},{"start":15063.177,"end":15091.373,"text":"真正守住民主制度與人民參政權的長期保障是 報告委員那個超越黨派依法行政公正公開 以上報告好 太好了 謝謝希望未來就是要看你要讓我們的國家正常運轉讓保障我們的人民 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝感謝麥正委員質詢"},{"start":15096.567,"end":15111.097,"text":"我們被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生的說明跟質詢都已經結束被提名人蘇嘉鴻先生可以先行離席休息兩分鐘 謝謝大家"},{"start":15126.493,"end":15143.592,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":15144.991,"end":15165.916,"text":"因為恐懼啊,我現在不是被人罵過,我現在被人罵過,我現在被罵過,我現在被罵過,我現在被罵過"},{"start":15167.176,"end":15197.176,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":15199.017,"end":15216.487,"text":"慢慢來 慢慢來"},{"start":15241.795,"end":15242.976,"text":"主席 黃委員各位委員"},{"start":15269.032,"end":15279.678,"text":"張秘書長還有在座各位先進 大家好非常榮幸能夠在這邊接受立法院的審查"},{"start":15283.619,"end":15299.859,"text":"很榮幸被台灣民眾黨推薦然後受行政院提名為中選會的被提名人我目前在東吳大學任教目前是東吳大學政治系的教授我自己的研究專長研究領域是"},{"start":15301.722,"end":15314.982,"text":"憲政體制還有選語制度那對於選語制度事實上有蠻多的這個世界各國選語制度有蠻多的一些觀察跟研究所以我自己個人認為就是說有這個機會有這個榮幸"},{"start":15317.666,"end":15334.96,"text":"如果能夠到中選會來服務的話其實是貢獻我自己的所長所以作為一個學者能夠進行公共服務有這樣的機會其實我是非常覺得是樂觀其成的而且也是覺得很榮幸能夠有機會擔任這樣的工作的"},{"start":15339.012,"end":15356.638,"text":"我對於自己的這個中選會的一個如果說將來能夠有機會能夠擔任中選會委員的話我想我對自己的一個自我的定位是超越黨派然後依法行政然後公平公正的性質執權雖然我是受台灣民眾黨所推薦但我不是台灣民眾黨的"},{"start":15358.158,"end":15380.574,"text":"政黨的代言人因為做一個中選會這樣的獨立機關我做一個研究憲政憲法的學者其實我對獨立機關本身的一個期許是相當的深厚的所以如果說我真的有機會有榮幸擔任中選會委員的話我想這是我一個對自己的一個非常深切的自我的期待自我期許"},{"start":15381.752,"end":15396.975,"text":"那就是我覺得中選會在過去這幾年來在政治的紛擾當中事實上確實他的公信力跟他的一些他的獨立性似乎受到社會各界的某一些質疑不過其實我還是相當"},{"start":15398.036,"end":15418.013,"text":"程度肯定這個中選會的同仁的在選務工作上有很多的努力啦那只是說在台灣目前這個朝野的這樣的一個對立情況之下不免會有一些對中選會這個獨立機關的這樣的一個一個政治上的一些批判那我認為就是說強化中選會的"},{"start":15420.254,"end":15442.386,"text":"公信力 獨立性是這個未來中選會要進一步去努力的一個方向那我也希望就是說我未來如果有幸作為一個中選會的委員在這個合一制的運作之下能夠貢獻自己所長然後這個對於這個台灣的民主深化民主鞏固以及這個民主的韌性盡一分心力我想我就簡短報告到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":15445.245,"end":15448.446,"text":"謝謝 感謝說明我們今天定期張祺凱委員質詢請蘇教授 請"},{"start":15471.69,"end":15498.722,"text":"所以說今天從游營榮游主委到副主委到目前最熱門的被問到的就是不在即投票了不在即投票那游營榮游主委提到的是他贊成可是他要求從公投開始做那事實上最近這幾天有看到民進黨立院黨團向前跨了一步立院黨團的這個幹事長鍾嘉斌講說必要的時候從總統大選都可以開始做"},{"start":15500.868,"end":15516.45,"text":"那我看你的這個回答我們這個問卷啦你是贊成不再急投票的特別是台灣民眾黨現在提出來的版本國內移轉投票有沒有可能 有沒有可能如果你獲得提名完之後我剛剛講的是三個階段"},{"start":15517.543,"end":15535.01,"text":"游盈隆公投到了民進黨黨團連總統大選都可以了有沒有可能進來之後如果成功被提名通過這個中選會的這個提名之後進來之後有沒有可能在今年的年底縣市長的投票有可能可以做不在籍投票嗎"},{"start":15536.218,"end":15565.017,"text":"我想謝謝委員那個詢問就是不在意投票現在當然要等那個法律通過嘛所以中選會作為獨立機關最重要職責是依法行政啦所以我是很樂見就是說寫期待就是說這個不在意投票法能夠通過那事實上我覺得目前對於不在意投票的一些疑慮我想確實是存 是我想可以肯定的事實上你剛提了一個非常重要的 依法行政就是民眾黨這個版本已經提出來了"},{"start":15565.737,"end":15579.798,"text":"如果立法院三讀通過的民眾黨這個版本那就是中選會就在依法 依法行政嘛 對不對那如果來得及的話就是今年年底的縣市長選舉可能就可以開始做這個台灣民眾黨這個版本而且這個版本"},{"start":15581.701,"end":15607.07,"text":"不是什麼有什麼國安餘力啦什麼境外勢力介入的他沒有國外也沒有兩岸喔我們這個界定的就是國內的移轉投票就你還是要親自要去投啦跟你有提到說這跟通信投票又不一樣對不對所以執行上應該是沒有問題的那我問你一下因為剛剛有有這個委員就回答說中選會的行政量能啊做不到你覺得做不做得到"},{"start":15608.26,"end":15636.214,"text":"我覺得中選會當然就是他會一個比較謹慎的態度在面對這個事情啦可是我自己會認為就是說如果真的法律已經通過了那中選會當然就是要盡力去配合辦理那我也認為中選會在一定的時間準備之下是應該有一定的準備的量能去推動這件事情的依法行政然後盡快去推動是可以有機會在年底依法來行政來做的對不對其實是有可能的事實上"},{"start":15636.994,"end":15661.666,"text":"你是專門研究選舉的日本都已經實施不再擠投票大概二十幾年了二十幾年了我看那個報導上面寫他說日本連在攔戟日本人去攔戟都可以投票他們甚至可以提前投票跟美國都是一樣的 南韓也有嘛他們號稱科技大國怎麼我們的技術是有問題的連我們的移工"},{"start":15663.415,"end":15690.658,"text":"在台灣的印尼的移工 非印尼的移工他們都有投票啊所以老實講我們要趕快去推動要不然真的會被世界上笑啦好 OK這個題希望你以後可以盡力去推動那當然就是可能有些人可能意見會不一樣可是最重要最重要的就是這個法有沒有在最近完成三度另外來我看你的回答裡面有一個非常重要的這個上次總統大選的時候啊有一個非常有名的這個網紅"},{"start":15693.579,"end":15710.952,"text":"愛麗莎莎 她因為轉發了有些民眾有在質疑說是不是有作票結果後來你們中選會就告了她了後來沒有起訴 黃國昌就在問她說中選會到後來一句不好意思都沒說 你怎麼看這樣的事情"},{"start":15713.32,"end":15734.65,"text":"我想中選會作為一個獨立機關他的基本的做法應該以公開呈現為主要優先的一個選項我想提起訴訟這個是一個比較相對來講我覺得個人來講是一個比較激烈手段澄清把事實呈現不是急於去興訟你的態度是這樣所以希望以後中選會不要急著去興訟最後問一個問題最要緊的問題"},{"start":15737.941,"end":15753.421,"text":"這個去年啊引起最大爭議的就是國民黨提了實質廢死的這個公投在中選會被廢掉了你怎麼看這樣一個事情如果你當選了中選會的這個委員之後如果再來提一次這個實質廢死這個案子你會怎麼樣來處理這個案子"},{"start":15757.546,"end":15782.42,"text":"這個問題確實是比較在憲政協議上我覺得是比較有真理的不過我簡單回答就是立法院所提的公投案依照目前公投法的規定其實中選會是沒有審查權的所以當立法院真的提了這樣公投案我想中選會我如果說這個案子重新同樣發生的話中選會必須依法辦理只是說確實這個用憲法"},{"start":15783.34,"end":15807.663,"text":"就是公投去推翻憲法判決本身這個事情的這個議題我覺得我作為一個學者我是有一點疑慮的不過作為一個中選會這個獨立機關的角色我認為就是依法行政我想這是最優先的考量中選會去沒收立法院的這個提案那不就變成是太上立法院了對不對 而且你講到一個重點你今天質詢 我覺得你答詢得非常好你都是依法行政在做事情所以如果這個案子如果"},{"start":15808.706,"end":15815.338,"text":"最近又被提出來 請依法行政來做事情不要急於去沒收 好不好好 好 非常謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝 感謝張七凱委員質詢"},{"start":15828.469,"end":15849.145,"text":"我們繼續進行被提名人的那個蘇志橋先生說明跟詢問都已經結束了在這裡被提名人蘇志橋先生可以先行離席我們休息兩分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":15856.293,"end":15856.717,"text":"請問一下"},{"start":15859.391,"end":15879.329,"text":"一幕啦,我們來五分啦,改兩分啦,開始啦,前輩,前輩,馬上好,欸,兩分鐘啦,理姐,啊,這樣喔,一人,一人,一人,一人,一人,一人,一人,一人,一人,一人,"},{"start":15891.938,"end":15901.043,"text":"今天等於說對我們來講就是七場啦所以一定要切啦對,對我們來講就是七場啦"},{"start":15915.57,"end":15922.472,"text":"請一下請一下"},{"start":15956.59,"end":15959.333,"text":"30秒30秒他有那個壓縮那個時間喔 好 來營養"},{"start":15974.864,"end":15979.149,"text":"來 我們繼續進行被提名人陳忠義先生說明和詢問這裡中選委委員被提名人陳忠義先生說明"},{"start":15990.682,"end":16006.717,"text":"主席 張鴻路委員 吳啟明委員在座各位官員我是這次中選委員被提名人陳忠義很榮幸也很高興能夠來立法院來答詢接受審查"},{"start":16008.885,"end":16021.176,"text":"我想今天坐下來我是當然 人家說好酒定慢醉啦不是淡於中宿那我想今天聽了吳思瑤的選舉創意美學我們很有啟發也聽到張宏祿委員對選辦法第98條之一虛違憲習戶籍意圖使人當選五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":16032.265,"end":16044.393,"text":"所以我們都聽到很多委員的寶貴意見我們都會吸收來加以運用那我有能性的通過的話我一定會秉持公正公平獨立專業依法來執行職務謝謝各位 謝謝 以上謝謝感謝蕭明我們定期的委員長黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在"},{"start":16064.246,"end":16077.899,"text":"比提名人陳忠義先生說明及諮詢已經結束了比提名人陳忠義先生可以先行離席"},{"start":16081.704,"end":16106.093,"text":"本次會議定期的質詢及問出委比提名人的本院委員除了不在場議員全都已經發言完畢 審討結束委員有蘇巧慧 莊瑞雄 高金樹梅"},{"start":16107.401,"end":16128.117,"text":"在博弈省法會所提出的書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報委員會這項中間有要求提供相關資料及密託報告報告的部分請行政院及相關機關盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":16134.688,"end":16163.341,"text":"報告聯席會對院會交互審查行政院涵送中央委員選舉委員會委員提名名單游一龍為委員並為主任委員胡柏諺為委員並為副主委委員黃文玲"},{"start":16164.485,"end":16176.758,"text":"李立忠、蘇嘉鴻、蘇姿喬、陳忠義軍委委員請同意案"},{"start":16185.089,"end":16194.455,"text":"審查完略做以下的關係本院審查完略依律範疑之前行使法第29條的第三項規定於2月13日依據審查報告"},{"start":16205.97,"end":16210.932,"text":"提請院會公決請問各位委員有沒有什麼意義沒有 我們就通過本案與院會討論的時候由王召集委員會補充說明請問各位委員 還有什麼問題沒有沒有 我們就通過"},{"start":16233.203,"end":16246.418,"text":"本院各黨團隊被提名人的主席及四任縣所提出的書面問題及行政院"},{"start":16248.046,"end":16269.728,"text":"含糊就被提名人說太久了 最關注了據列入紀錄刊登公報審查會到此結束本次議定處理完畢現在散會感謝大家 謝謝大家"},{"start":16273.544,"end":16284.554,"text":"我現在兩雙腹耶醫生長謝謝喔辛苦了辛苦了辛苦了辛苦了加油加油加油謝謝謝謝"},{"start":16299.258,"end":16321.015,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}