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杨茜茜"},{"start":652.022,"end":653.695,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1160.503,"end":1163.469,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1634.241,"end":1635.961,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1674.889,"end":1675.481,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1933.39,"end":1939.188,"text":"我們現在開會,這場公聽會為了面對境外敵對勢力"},{"start":1940.697,"end":1965.775,"text":"有各種統案滲透日趨嚴重那現行的國安法是否足以因應那現行法有關發起資助主持等需要證明意圖危害國家安全或社會安定的主觀構成要件是否妥適現行法對於類如現役軍人等對境外勢力效忠或一般人民參與外國籍"},{"start":1968.237,"end":1995.989,"text":"境外敵對勢力的犯罪組織行為並無明規定禁止是否為法律漏洞等議題我們今天特別舉辦這場公聽會來聽取各位專家學者的意見我們會詳時記錄各位的意見並列入立法院公報紀錄中作為國家安全法修法時的討論的參考謝謝那首先我介紹今天的專家學者跟出席委員"},{"start":1997.209,"end":2023.886,"text":"跟政府機關的代表今天很感謝各位現在已經到場的專家學者有台北國立台北大學法律系教授馮聖彥教授 謝謝接下來是國立政治大學法學教授楊雲樺教授 謝謝接下來東吳大學法學副教授洪兆成教授 謝謝"},{"start":2026.5,"end":2053.357,"text":"中央警察大學國進系教授王智慎教授,謝謝。採訪法人民主文教基金會董事長,龜洪誠董事長,謝謝。剛剛到席的,我們開南大學法律系教授,蔣桂美教授也來到現場,謝謝你,謝謝。那我先宣告一下,"},{"start":2055.114,"end":2072.325,"text":"等一下的程序感謝各位教授的出席也感謝各位教授等一下可以給我們意見我們先會請所有的專家學生發言然後以簽到順序為原則每位發言時間8分鐘"},{"start":2075.599,"end":2095.763,"text":"本會委員要發言的請到主席台登記在兩位專家學者發言之後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間五分鐘最後再跟與會機關代表說明發言台正前方是燈號倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲結束前兩分鐘會按鈴兩聲啊結束會按鈴兩聲對不起"},{"start":2101.758,"end":2127.757,"text":"現在請部會報告來我介紹一下今天與會的部會今天與會的部會包含內政部警政署副署長李文章副署長我們陸委會法政處副署長董玉雲副署長我們國安局陳副署長還有我們法務部主任檢察官白主任檢察官"},{"start":2129.326,"end":2147.146,"text":"還有司法院刑事廳吳元耀法官還有國家資通安全研究院副主任許世章副主任還有一個很重要就是速發部的法治處的處長張學文處長"},{"start":2151.987,"end":2168.61,"text":"大概就以上這樣子,請問有沒有人要提出會議的意見?如果沒有的話,我們就趕快開始讓我們第一位我們先請部會來報告,我們先請警政署報告,請自己掌握時間,我們盡量在三分鐘以內,謝謝"},{"start":2178.757,"end":2204.402,"text":"主席各位委員專家學者女士先生本次國家安全法修法公聽會本部應要列席深感榮幸今天公聽會所列的討論提綱請將本部的意見簡單說明如下敬請各位先進指導有關提綱五其他國家對於鼓吹戰爭言論如何處置的部分"},{"start":2205.422,"end":2221.459,"text":"公民與政治權利國際公約第20條第一項規定任何鼓吹戰爭的宣傳應以法律禁止之那目前國外的相關處罰的權利大概有拉脫維亞刑法第77條規定的煽動戰爭罪"},{"start":2225.407,"end":2238.098,"text":"以及芬蘭刑法第十二章第二段規定的這個使芬蘭陷入戰爭或者稱為軍事行動目標為目的而公開散布"},{"start":2239.212,"end":2264.294,"text":"等等的陳述行為要依煽動戰爭罪來判處一年以上十年以下的有期徒刑另外在提綱六的部分因應境外勢力散佈假訊息危害國家安全的處置部分在我國的法律規定下國家安全目前是要確保國家生存跟領土的完整"},{"start":2265.075,"end":2287.95,"text":"主權獨立以及社會安定不受內外的威脅的一個狀態維持國家的正常運作那針對境外勢力呢透過散布假訊息進行認知作戰的部分那大概可以透過法律行政跟全民防護啊三重機制來進行處理那在法律的部分呢當然是規範還有處罰追溯這些問題那"},{"start":2292.253,"end":2309.188,"text":"遍布在整個國家不同的領域分別適用不同的法律比如講在境外敵對勢力的這個指託委託或資助的部分我們會用反滲透法在選舉的部分我們要用公職人員選罷法來做處理"},{"start":2311.61,"end":2337.083,"text":"第二個是行政處理跟計時的一個防禦那這裡面包括計時澄清的措施媒體治管跟共管還有協力平台的一個檢舉那第三個是全民防衛還有公眾的參與包括設置這個檢舉的管道以及媒體變毒的一個教育然後讓媒體不會做傳播不親信而且甚至能夠來做檢舉"},{"start":2338.504,"end":2359.218,"text":"那以上大概是我們目前國家針對這個國家安全法相關的一個做法那今天我們委員會有特別召集請各位專家學者來那我們希望專家學者能夠給我們建言作為未來執法修法的一個依據以上"},{"start":2375.306,"end":2394.251,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位老師 各機關代表陸委會承蒙立法院邀請針對國安法報告本會的意見 甚感榮幸以下是本會的說明首先本會要提出目前台灣的處境來凸顯出為何要訂定"},{"start":2395.231,"end":2413.607,"text":"為何要補強國家安全法的相關的法制的缺陷首先是中共長期對我統戰滲透確實這個部分總統去年也提出五大國安的統戰威脅和17項的因應策略這方面都是凸顯實務上面對中共統戰威脅急需補強的各個面向"},{"start":2414.267,"end":2439.354,"text":"第二個部分是共諜案件有層出不窮按照國安局的統計中共滲透我們的五大管道分別是黑道幫派、地下錢莊、掩護的公司、公廟團體以及民間社團相關的案件也是層出不窮並且幾乎是成倍數的成長所以顯示出這個共諜在台灣的活躍的程度急需在立法方面進一步予以歸管"},{"start":2440.234,"end":2459.322,"text":"防治那政府雖然在109年有完成相關國安武法的修正但實務上在查辦案件的時候仍然面對法治有某些的缺陷以至於沒有辦法完整的去把這些犯罪的行為進一步去處理所以我們需要去"},{"start":2460.303,"end":2475.157,"text":"補強法制相關方面的漏洞那這一次行政院法的草案呢就是行政院版的草案就目的在於接軌國際公約就是補強法制漏洞並且強化誠摯的力道保障我們數位網路科技方面的主權"},{"start":2476.178,"end":2496.406,"text":"譬如說現行法對於發展組織雖然有處罰但是對於參與組織是沒有明文的規範那因此我們對於這種進一步要進入違法行為的這個沒有辦法提早的予以防範切斷它的這個違法行為的前進所以現在就是在參與組織方面已經有一個"},{"start":2499.427,"end":2521.656,"text":"草案的部分予以明文的規範那另外呢現在國安的威脅其實不是局限在實體邊界上面的領域除了數位技術以及社群媒體還有網路的這種交互的作用的產生那個網路方面的民主防衛的機制急需補強因此對於鼓吹戰爭的言論禁止以武力禁止以武力鼓吹"},{"start":2526.977,"end":2540.788,"text":"各個傷害台灣的這些言論都必須要以進一步以法律來禁止最後我要提到結語的部分對於中共對我們台灣複合式的壓迫與灰色地帶的侵擾"},{"start":2541.936,"end":2560.516,"text":"維護台灣安全已經不是單一個機關的權責都必須要全體國人以及政府各部會跨機關的合作來予以防堵那今天要討論的國家安全法的修正草案的補強就是我們加強國家安全防範的第一道的關卡以上 謝謝"},{"start":2562.793,"end":2579.652,"text":"好謝謝陸委會的報告那其他單位報告也請各位自行參閱並刊登公報接著我們就依照順序請專家學者發言第一位我們請台北大學法律系教授馮聖彥教授謝謝"},{"start":2588.327,"end":2614.274,"text":"主席好,各位先生、各位老師大家好,我是台北大學法律師一鋒聖顏今天很榮幸的來受邀來談一下這場公聽會那我就今天就討論提綱的部分有六個那我會把我的重點放在一到四這個部分,然後五到六的部分我簡單的陳述一下我的想法那針對第一個討論提綱第一個問題關於所謂的面對境外敵對勢力然後現行國安法是不是足以應對這件事情那我想這可以分成兩個層次來討論"},{"start":2615.914,"end":2638.055,"text":"那第一個層次呢,是涉及到立法上面,尤其是法治上面的漏洞的問題那也是今天的主軸那第二個層次呢,其實是司法如何適用法律的問題因為司法在適用法律的時候,當然也有可能改變了原本的立法者的原意或者是所有原本的立法框架當下呢,所沒有的這樣一個限制那這些都會影響到說國安法呢,現行的國安法到底是不是足以應對這些"},{"start":2639.369,"end":2661.473,"text":"境外敵對勢力的滲透這樣相關的行為那關於第二個問題有關於發展組織這個部分是不是要把這個發展組織的在我們現行國安法第七條有限制來說你必須要是意圖危害國家安全或社會安定這樣一個主觀要件是否妥適呢?我先講結論結論上面我的立場是認為說這樣一個主觀構成要件的限制其實是不妥當的"},{"start":2662.048,"end":2683.708,"text":"那發展組織的這樣的行為呢 依照我們的實務見解呢其實呢 它是為了境外敵對勢力 然後去做一個招募人力的行為所以它基本上是擴充境外勢力的這樣一個人力的網絡資源這樣的行為它本質上面呢 其實是一個抽象危險犯這樣的犯罪那在實務上面遇到的困難呢 其實是說呢 法院其實很害怕說呢 把這個所謂的"},{"start":2684.227,"end":2708.84,"text":"發展組織的這樣行為跟所謂的中性的這樣一個政治的這樣主張這樣政治行為呢沒有辦法去做一個明確的區隔然後會影響到人民的這樣一個主張政治權利的這樣一個基本權利那我覺得這件事情呢自己當然也是一個刑事法學者而言非常重要的一個問題啦那我覺得可以現行法底下呢其實呢我們可以看到第二條連結到第七條國安法的第二條連結到第七條他有嘗試去做這樣的限縮"},{"start":2709.639,"end":2738.039,"text":"避免把這個過度去侵害人民的這樣一個政治表意的表現這樣的行為他怎麼限縮呢?他其實在客觀構成要件上面就已經有一個要件這叫做未境外敵對勢力而去發展組織那這個未境外敵對勢力這件事情其實我覺得就是一個很重要的地方就是他明確去區隔說什麼是法律所允許的這樣一個政治表意行為什麼是法所不允許的這樣一個發展組織的行為所以我覺得重點應該是在於說"},{"start":2738.78,"end":2742.273,"text":"既然我們針對發展組織這樣的招募或是吸收行為有可能會"},{"start":2742.932,"end":2772.073,"text":"在大部分的案件當中跟所謂的中性的行為 正式行為會混淆那為了境外勢力是不是為了境外勢力而去做相關的行為這件事情呢我把它稱之為所謂的組織慣例性這件事情其實是顯得相當相當重要那有沒有必要呢在這個客觀的要件的線索之外呢在主觀的構成要件部分呢再加上一個意圖危害國家安全或社會安定我個人是認為是反對的意見首先遇到的問題就是說目前實務上面如同各位委員所提出來的草案裡面所提到的"},{"start":2772.533,"end":2796.014,"text":"其實會有所謂的證據證明上面的困難如果說一個行為呢他是為了一個境外敵對勢力然後去發展組織在客觀上面也已經有危害國家安全的這樣的潛力那基本上他就具有所謂的基本上就有刑事的可發性那為什麼呢他在這樣一個具有可發性的行為而且也可以跟所謂的中心的政治行為去做取革的前提之下我們還要再去做一個額外的主觀要件上面的限制"},{"start":2796.434,"end":2802.977,"text":"在我看來這種雙重限制,其實是把國安法第二條連接到第七條這樣犯人組織行為,把它砍斷手腳那會導致說這個實務上面沒有辦法針對這個現實上面有危害到國家安全這樣的行為,對他來講來處罰"},{"start":2812.984,"end":2841.11,"text":"那我的另外學理上面的理由除了實務上面的證明困難之外呢還有一個問題就是我們之所以在立法的法條當中呢規範有意圖這樣一個特殊的主觀不法要素其實主要的目的是在於說它也可以彰顯出它的行為不法內涵的特質就像竊盜罪你單純的拿走別人的東西沒有經過他人的同意這當然還不夠用竊盜罪來加以處罰還是必須要主觀上面把它拒為己有這樣意思那這種竊盜罪的不法所謂意圖它其實是彰顯了這一種竊盜罪的不法的行為本質"},{"start":2841.91,"end":2856.564,"text":"可是在我們現在的國安法的第二條連接到第七條這個發展組織的行為如果說他客觀上面就已經是為了境外敵對勢力去發展組織了那他的行為不發內涵就已經完全的評價出來了我們沒有需要再用一個意圖然後再去彰顯出他的不發內涵"},{"start":2858.885,"end":2879.511,"text":"增加意圖這樣的限制反而是過度限縮到可怕範圍所以結論上面我認為意圖危害國家安全或社會的利益把它刪除那刪除之後行政院的版本所提出來的草案其實是要加上一個事性犯的構成要件要素那我自己甚至是比較激進一點我認為說增加這樣的事性犯的構成要件要素其實也是不必要的因為你只要是為了"},{"start":2880.305,"end":2899.731,"text":"境外敵對勢力然後去做這樣的招募行為基本上就已經可以加以處罰了這是我的立場那關於發展組織的部分那在第三個呢關於參與組織的行為呢現行法底下呢其實是沒有處罰是不是有一個處罰漏洞結論上面我也認為說這是一個很明顯的處罰漏洞為什麼呢因為為什麼要處罰這樣一個相關的這樣一個資助建立組織或是參與組織發展組織這樣的行為呢原因就在於說"},{"start":2905.869,"end":2918.395,"text":"這種境外敵對勢力還有他所連接到的這種人的網絡這種組織的網絡其實本身存續在那邊就已經是會對於我們的國家安全造成一定的抽象危險性的損害那這也是當初我們可以處罰這種相關行為的理由"},{"start":2919.116,"end":2937.126,"text":"結果我們竟然只有處罰所謂的受謀或是一些領導組織的行為還有資助組織的行為但是卻沒有參加對於組織存續而言本身最重要就是要有人加入所以針對參與組織的部分竟然沒有處罰我覺得這是一個沒有辦法容忍的處罰漏洞那下一個問題當然才是說如果我們把參與組織的行為歸納進去的話那會有什麼樣的"},{"start":2942.265,"end":2954.849,"text":"進一步要怎麼樣去解釋說這個什麼叫參與組織的行為呢基本上你大概要有一個加入行為是沒有問題的然後仿照那個組織犯罪防制條例目前的現行的實務見解他其實對於組織犯罪組織這樣一個組織的結構本身的要求"},{"start":2958.089,"end":2983.753,"text":"其實呢我覺得是相對而言是比較寬鬆的那這個寬鬆也是有正當理由的那是因為我們如果去看國家安全的相關的案件你都會知道說這種組織網絡表面上面它不可能會有一個相當固定的階級性的這種形式的正式的這種組織化結構他們都是組織裡面就是有一群人他們為了一個某種共同的目標然後就開始一對一的網絡這樣去拉人所以這裡的組織的理解我覺得應該要把它放寬去理解只要你是為了要"},{"start":2984.757,"end":3008.124,"text":"為境外敵對勢力、危害國家安全去做這樣一個參與組織的行為那個組織並不會要求說一定要有正式的網絡結構等等這樣就可以構成參與組織這是組織結構的部分可是我有問題的地方是在於說這樣一個參與組織的行為到底要不要要求說你只是加入就好了嗎?還是加入之後你什麼事情都可以不用做?這是一種可能的思考方向"},{"start":3008.744,"end":3033.22,"text":"還是要仿照德國的立法例說,加入之後你還是要做某些貢獻只是說這個貢獻不需要這麼的重要而已我個人覺得說,如果我們認為說你有對於這種參與組織抽象危險犯這樣過度前置處罰的疑慮的話我們的確可以要求說你在參與組織之後要提出一些貢獻但是這個貢獻當然也不只是你要之後要去招募人才或是做一些資助行為當然也包括為了維持這個組織運作"},{"start":3034.421,"end":3047.926,"text":"所必要的一些例如說擬定犯罪計畫啦或是做一些日常的營運的這種生活營運的這種行為我覺得都可以把它算是這裡所說的參與組織的行為那因為時間的關係呢我針對第五跟第六呢我就簡單的說明一下"},{"start":3048.867,"end":3066.516,"text":"針對鼓吹戰爭言論要如何處罰這個問題,我覺得重點其實不是會過度去限制言論自由因為言論自由我行使的武林是有界限的我覺得重點應該要把它擺在說,到底這種鼓吹戰爭言論行為是不是會現實上面會不會危害到國家安全這件事情,我覺得這是比較重要的那針對第六個問題"},{"start":3069.278,"end":3093.921,"text":"抱歉我打斷一下,你等一下可以繼續講沒關係,謝謝不要趕時間,你可以繼續講沒關係,把他講完從第五個那位開始在講五催戰爭言論這個部分,我覺得言論自由並沒有辦法無限上綱大家都知道他也是作為基本權一環,所以他必須要跟其他重要的基本權去做一個比例院子上面的審查跟權衡"},{"start":3094.481,"end":3119.032,"text":"所以我認為說關鍵其實就在於說我們在立法上面要如何設計出來一種構成要件然後這種構成要件其實是可以兼顧人民的言論自由的基本權還有兼顧國家安全所以你一昧的說鼓吹言論戰爭言論就絕對不可以加以處罰我覺得這是美於現實所以另外只是說我們在構成要件上面如何是透過危險犯的方式因為終究是危害國家安全我們不可能等到"},{"start":3119.585,"end":3143.262,"text":"國家安全具體被危害才加以處罰相關的行為,那就太晚了所以抽下危險犯或是私刑犯的立法的方向,我覺得是針對鼓吹戰爭言論,如果我們想要用刑事處罰的話,是可以考慮的方向針對第六個提綱的問題,為境外敵對勢力散布假訊息,到底這件事情要如何來處理目前行政院版的草案是用行政法的方式"},{"start":3144.502,"end":3158.721,"text":"我覺得看了剛才各位所提出來的資料之後,我開始思考是說其實現行法底下,雖然我國沒有刑事法制裡面,並沒有完全針對廣義或是普遍性、一般性的散佈假訊息來處罰"},{"start":3160.803,"end":3184.549,"text":"而是針對例如說商業的不實的假訊息,或是關於軍事上面不實的假訊息來分別處罰所以針對假訊息處罰這件事情,在我國底下其實可以用一些既有的規定來加以處罰現在問題只是說,這樣會不會有掛一路亂的問題會不會說針對國家安全的這個部分,會不會沒有辦法去使用這種不實商業言論或是不實軍事言論,就可以完全涵蓋這是我覺得是要思考這個問題"},{"start":3186.926,"end":3200.679,"text":"那我會覺得說,如果說你是一個已經加入組織的人,就是將來如果參與組織這樣行為真的被處罰的話,那他在參與組織這個過程當中去散布這種假訊息,那即便假訊息沒有構成要件可以使用,那當然還是可以透過參與組織行為來處罰,這是比較沒有問題的。"},{"start":3203.288,"end":3224.669,"text":"比較有問題呢,其實是在於非參與組織者的這個部分,就是他畢竟不是組織的成員,但是他就是散布這種假訊息那這個部分呢,我是覺得是可以考慮進去,就是創生一個跟國家安全有關係的一個普遍性的、一般性的這樣一個散布假訊息的這樣的刑事處罰、這樣規定我想待會楊昀華老師也會針對這個部分,再去做一個比較法上面的深入分析,我這邊就不多說"},{"start":3225.717,"end":3236.847,"text":"那最後我想要分享一個是關於草案當中的中間人這個問題就是現在現行法的國安法底下其實沒有處罰中間人但是在行政院提出來的八條之一,它其實有怪犯中間人這樣"},{"start":3237.935,"end":3260.161,"text":"其實這個中間人就是受到境外敵對勢力的委託然後他去指示或是委託然後他自己本身沒有去做這樣一個發展組織的招募行為他只是再去再進行一次的委託所以從刑法學理上面來看的話看起來如果沒有這個處罰中間人規定我們就只能夠回到刑法總則裡面的關於共犯的這個規定來處理就是他本身上就是一種教唆他人去發展組織的這樣行為可是"},{"start":3261.322,"end":3285.469,"text":"這樣規定的會受限於刑法上面關於共犯的限制從屬性的這樣一個限制所以當被教授者如果他沒有去興起一個犯罪決議去做發展組織行為的話那這個說是他或是指示他再去發展組織的這個中間人就沒有辦法處罰所以我覺得這部分把教授他人去發展組織的行為把它正犯化也是直接把這種中間人當作是一個正犯來處理我覺得是可行的方向只是說要考慮的是說呢"},{"start":3286.205,"end":3311.746,"text":"這種中間人他本質上面還是一個教唆犯那他在刑度上面有沒有必要呢因為草案當中是把刑度跟一個發展組織的這個被唆使者來同等處罰我覺得在刑度上面是可以考慮不過如果我們認為說反正教唆犯在我國憲刑法底下也是跟正犯相同處罰的話那這個問題可能就被這個疑慮可能就比較會被消遣這樣子那以上是我的一些想法謝謝各位先進好謝謝謝謝馮聖彥教授謝謝謝謝你寶貴的意見"},{"start":3317.282,"end":3340.022,"text":"接下來我們請楊雲樺教授來發言時間一樣8分鐘,但是沒有講完你可以繼續發表你的寶貴意見,謝謝主席各位先進,大家好我想底下我就按照今天的討論提綱,提出一點個人的建議或者看法"},{"start":3340.828,"end":3365.122,"text":"首先第一個當然就是回到一個基本問題我國現行的國安法制是否周延或者可以應對我們今天面臨的各種狀況關於這個問題我想我先從德國的歷史經驗還有戰後他的態度做一個簡單的分析我們都知道威馬憲法時期就是二戰以前的威馬當時被號稱是"},{"start":3368.486,"end":3394.163,"text":"全世界大概最先進最進步的一部憲法可是威馬憲法沒有辦法阻止納粹的上台因為納粹並不是用暴力的方式奪取政權他就是用民主的方式所以簡單來講納粹是熟練的運用民主程序甚至是基本權保障的法治程序逐步奪權所以最後在檢討的時候"},{"start":3399.147,"end":3421.105,"text":"多數人都認為民主的寬容居然造成了自我毀滅的工具我舉一個大家都知道的納粹時期很有名的宣傳部長戈培爾的名言民主何其愚蠢民主最大的笑話就是提供敵人可以摧毀民主本身的手段"},{"start":3422.226,"end":3444.312,"text":"所以到了二戰結束以後,德國基本法在制憲的時候,制憲代表提出一個看法就是對我而言創造那些破壞民主的條件,絕對不屬於民主的概念所以我們一般談的民主是需要防衛的,是需要保護的,它不是價值中立的這種看法"},{"start":3446.393,"end":3451.972,"text":"戰後基本法時期逐步的成形而且成為一個穩定的思想"},{"start":3453.069,"end":3476.895,"text":"那在整個防衛性民主裡面呢,譬如說針對這些破壞民主、摧毀法治的這些情況呢,他很要求一個預防性的概念預防性的概念,也就是說不是要等到危險已經很明顯了甚至時害已經發生了,我們才動用法律來處罰,這個都已經太晚了,所以呢"},{"start":3477.615,"end":3484.319,"text":"整個國安的觀念要在一個具有預防性、全面性的思考之下"},{"start":3487.33,"end":3515.407,"text":"設計來形成那德國刑法裡面呢關於這個部分總共有七張規定相關的我們講的國安的這個內容第一張是破壞和平內亂民主法治國體第二張是叛國與外患第三張是針對外國第四張妨害憲法機關選舉跟表決第五張妨害國防第六張反抗國家權利"},{"start":3517.253,"end":3524.144,"text":"第七章防害公共秩序那我粗估了一下大概有將近50條的條文針對各種"},{"start":3527.776,"end":3549.766,"text":"可能危害國安、防害社會秩序的這種情況呢足以詳細的規定這是德國刑法非常明顯的相同的內容幾乎也可以在歐洲很多國家瑞士、奧地利、法國幾乎大致也都看得到所以呢我個人認為我們的這個國安法制"},{"start":3550.566,"end":3573.038,"text":"我個人想法目前都是處於一種補破往事的規範而且規範的很零散所以對於需要預防性、前瞻性、全面性的思考在這邊是欠缺的第二個問題是現行法規定要意圖危害國家安全或社會安定"},{"start":3574.018,"end":3595.599,"text":"加入這個要件是否妥適其實長久以來這個部分除了實務上證明的困難因為有這種意圖你除非被告自白嘛要不然你就是收到了扣押到了很明顯的一些書面證據但是我們都知道目前兩岸的情況要做到這些事情的確是困難度非常高"},{"start":3596.099,"end":3621.782,"text":"所以這種要件加進去了以後反而是讓有些有心人士得以脫罪也造成了實務機關要起訴甚至審判定罪非常大的一個困難意圖的這種規定方式通常只有在財產犯罪才有我們把它弄到國安的犯罪裡面嚴格限縮它的適用這個我覺得是非常不妥當的"},{"start":3622.162,"end":3642.235,"text":"所以我會贊成我們現在的修法草案把它改成所謂的適性犯也就是在客觀上足以發生這些危險或危害只要能證明的出來就夠了而不是倒過頭還要求行為人我們要證明他的這個意圖所以我贊同如草案般的修法"},{"start":3643.195,"end":3670.227,"text":"第三個議題是我們現在有些比如說軍職人員什麼對敵效忠還有一般人民參與了參加了可能危害國家安全的犯罪組織有沒有處罰漏洞我想這個以德國刑法為例的話德國刑法非常清楚的規定不管是前面所講的對敵宣誓效忠這個是刑法裡面的處罰"},{"start":3671.267,"end":3694.233,"text":"但是我們要注意到一點就是所謂這種效忠會帶來的不好的或者危險基本上是在比較那種高官 層級比較高的那至於如果是一個部隊裡的小兵他這樣子可能受了別人的誘惑煽動去對敵效忠 我想"},{"start":3696.394,"end":3714.121,"text":"如果只是個案性質,而且他的層級並不高,不見得都要用到刑法來處罰反而在這邊重要的是對他的紀律的要求,還有他的教育所以如果要把這個規定進來,似乎在構成要件上面要做一些限縮,也就是"},{"start":3714.961,"end":3731.328,"text":"有相當影響力的那種層級才需要處罰至於一般人民如果參與了單純的參與所謂的違害國安的犯罪組織德國刑法密密麻麻的規定這個都是處罰的"},{"start":3732.489,"end":3754.896,"text":"但是因為罪刑法定,所以我們在考慮上面可以把他參與的這種犯罪組織他主要是進行什麼犯罪譬如說他刑法裡面很明確的規定這種發動戰爭危害人類罪那這個我在書面講義就有了,抱歉不是講義,書面的意見"},{"start":3758.258,"end":3774.629,"text":"這個我就不再贅述那至於第四點如果是軍公教人員或退將他涉及危害國家安全的罪那關於他的退休縫這個問題我看到文草案是說如果是遭受有罪判決以後就要停止發給50%我個人覺得這太客氣了"},{"start":3784.264,"end":3803.672,"text":"按照大法官這個4至782號的解釋這種所謂的退休金的給付給予是國家為了他的生活照顧義務主要的觀點是這樣就是照顧退休的公務員他的生活甚至是維持一個有尊嚴的一個生活"},{"start":3804.485,"end":3821.883,"text":"那可是擺在我們今天的脈絡下面來看這種財產權的保障應該要予以限制或者剝奪簡單來說財產權也要在一個憲法秩序之下所以我們很難相信國家一方面要照顧"},{"start":3823.024,"end":3847.502,"text":"他的生活,另外他拿照顧生活的這些錢來怎麼樣,危害國安這個我覺得是非常矛盾的,因此我個人會建議如果發生這種狀況的話,他的退休金就應該全部停發除非我們發現他本人或者他的家屬確實面臨生活困難"},{"start":3848.843,"end":3857.633,"text":"那這時候可以著急這都是按照強制執行法甚至刑法上面我們都可以發現啊那種犯罪所得在偵查中就可以扣了"},{"start":3859.525,"end":3879.762,"text":"也沒有人會說這個什麼違反無罪推定等等的問題所以我覺得這個考慮過多了我們絕不容許國家一方面拿我們納稅人的錢去發給公務員的退休金要來照顧他的生活另外一方面他可以拿著這個錢繼續的危害國安這個是矛盾的"},{"start":3880.404,"end":3897.686,"text":"那至於其他國家對於鼓吹戰爭的這種行為要不要處罰德國刑法分別在他的破壞和平章裡面還有防害公共秩序裡面都有提到這種言論是禁止的而且是用刑法處罰的"},{"start":3898.687,"end":3926.753,"text":"那我國的草案大概比較客氣啦他對這個是說將來要用行政法的這種罰環的規定那我個人認為即便是要採行政法罰環的規定我個人認為也應該採先行政後司法處罰的態度也就是對那種一犯再犯你對那種罰環已經沒有發生制裁效果的情況"},{"start":3929.698,"end":3946.99,"text":"應該改採刑事處罰的方式那這個在我國的立法力上也有所以呢這個部分應該值得考慮先行政後司法那第六呢為境外敵對勢力散布一些錯假訊息甚至危害到國安要怎麼處罰這個因為啊"},{"start":3951.584,"end":3968.89,"text":"用什麼方式散布?散布的危險性有多高?針對什麼內容?這個非常的多樣化所以德國刑法也沒有用一個很抽象的一個條文所以他是針對很多種情形散布在他的刑法的內容裡面"},{"start":3970.47,"end":3990.572,"text":"那除了這個部分之外呢,我想有一個很值得大家參考德國的立法在2024年基於這個歐盟的所有的指令跟要求所以他有推出一個數位服務法來取代他2017年的這種所謂的網路執行法"},{"start":3991.533,"end":4006.188,"text":"那在這個法裡面就分別針對很多所謂的虛假不實的內容可能包括商品可能裡面也包括了什麼對這種散佈假訊息危害國安他可能包括了這個這個"},{"start":4008.07,"end":4029.168,"text":"鼓勵仇恨發動戰爭暴力威脅種族等等的部分有了詳盡的規定那裡面最重要的就是整個國家對這種第一個網路的監管還有呢所謂的網路的平台業者負有更高的義務審查下架停權等等的規定"},{"start":4029.788,"end":4042.572,"text":"我覺得這個也是值得我們今天面臨這種國安威脅的時候尤其是透過今天的網路這種傳播,我們可以考慮的做法那我就先報告到此,謝謝"},{"start":4046.733,"end":4068.75,"text":"那整個歐洲現在為什麼跟台灣可以有很多共同的話題整個歐洲現在面對俄羅斯他們看到台灣面對中國所以有楊雲樺教授對於德國這麼深入的包含憲法以及數位服務法等等的意見確實很值得參考也很值得推廣感謝楊雲樺教授寶貴的意見"},{"start":4072.242,"end":4081.825,"text":"接下來我們還是照登記的順序,我們請中央警察大學教授王智慎教授,謝謝時間一樣8分鐘,但是可以暢所欲言"},{"start":4092.459,"end":4116.754,"text":"主席在座各位的行政官員各位老師各位媒體朋友大家好我是警察大選王志勝那也非常感謝立法院的邀請今天也就這個國家安全法公認會那當然依照提綱有六個相關的東西來做相關的報告那其實前面兩個老師就法制面做了很多很完整的這樣子的一個說明那基本上我都贊成幾位老師的切入的焦點但是我還是要強調一下說基本上現在為什麼"},{"start":4116.974,"end":4143.004,"text":"我們這麼急迫的要去修相關的國家安全法制很大的原因是在於中共現在的威脅已經不是傳統這種單一行為式的威脅就是單一行為人然後來連結然後來涉密的一個狀況它更多就已經不是傳統我們過去刑法所界定的單一刑結人單一結果犯這樣子的而是更多複合式的包括高度的組織化那代理人化甚至剛剛提到數位化的這樣子的複合式的威脅"},{"start":4143.744,"end":4159.773,"text":"所以事實上在這樣複合式威脅上我們傳統的國家安全法甚至整個台灣的國家安全法制還停留在過去舊的形態沒辦法因應現在層出不窮或者是變化的這樣子的一個新形態的國安威脅我想這個部分也是為什麼我們一直強調說希望能夠"},{"start":4161.014,"end":4180.709,"text":"去這個來去針對國家安全法去做新的這個增補跟修正的部分這是大的一個方向所以基本上我們看到不管是行政部門不管是這個許多立委提出相關的國安法的修正的法案我覺得都是一個正確而且應該要積極快速去進行的一個方向"},{"start":4181.829,"end":4202.974,"text":"我個人是按照就是大園這邊所提供的六個議題來做說明第一個就現行規安法是不是足以應對統戰滲透那當然很清楚的可以看到是無法應對的那剛剛也提到過去就是單一的性質這樣的情況不管是就結果犯的部分那現在其實它其實已經整個整個鏈結已經灰色地帶的鏈結非常非常強"},{"start":4205.635,"end":4221.787,"text":"延長那這個延長的過程當中其實都會長相先吸收吸收之後你測試再配置再滲透所以等你到最後滲透有行為出現的時候才去做這個相關的國安法制的處置其實是不足以進行的所以其實在相關的版本當中對於"},{"start":4223.829,"end":4241.617,"text":"參與組織其實就在前面的前階階段或者是這個中介轉介的部分這個其實都是在把整個過去的滲透鏈的鏈結往前去做延伸讓這個帶椅的節點可以在更前面就能夠獲得組織那而不會是只有末端的結果來面對這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":4242.777,"end":4257.414,"text":"那甚至我覺得在100億的委員的版本裡面甚至都還提到應該要特殊查核或是專業法庭等等之類我覺得大家的方向都一致的就是說整個對於國安法的這個防線要再往前移那如果參加"},{"start":4257.654,"end":4276.22,"text":"照這幾年各個國家的經驗也確實是這樣子它的傳統的情報框架已經都把那個防衛重心移到更前端的組織或者是代理人結構來進行整個的法制升級所以我們的官法現在不管是對於參與組織的部分對於所謂中間人的部分"},{"start":4277.02,"end":4303.601,"text":"去納入其實都是和現在民主國家的整個對於境外勢力的這個防衛的做法是一致的所以這部分非常贊成那第二個部分其實剛剛老師們也提到了就是過去用主觀要件的這樣子的東西意圖害國家安全的說法當然在使得實務上在這個整個的面臨他沒辦法有效的去做定罪因為你很難去界定主觀的一個狀況"},{"start":4304.742,"end":4330.635,"text":"那現在改取這種所謂的形式示範性的這樣的架構其實是完全正確用客觀行為來進行就足以生危害國家安全等等之類的這個部分其實更符合未來在針對整個國安調查當中或是國安法制應用當中更能夠精準或清楚的去瞭解掌握甚至定罪"},{"start":4331.155,"end":4347.69,"text":"那確實其實這幾年包括了我這邊看的都是澳洲加拿大然後英國那有些美國的劑子大概以這四個來做比較把它看的話確實這些國家基本上都不要求證明你是不是你的內心是不是有抽象的叛國意志而是客觀要求足以"},{"start":4348.37,"end":4367.677,"text":"造成危害譬如說你可能是證明是你是受到外國指示贊助或者是你有秘密欺瞞的這樣子各種風險行為就是以客觀的這種足以生危害的角度來進行所以其實從各國的比較法經驗也是往這個方向所以我非常贊成說在這個部分其實要趕緊來做這樣子的一個強化跟修法"},{"start":4368.317,"end":4389.647,"text":"那第三個部分我剛剛也提到就是說對於這種所謂的早期參與行為就是我一直強調就是說現在的整個的滲透鏈他是從接觸宣誓效忠甚至做出承諾然後才有可能才這個配置任務最後才實害發生那如果我們還是一直停留在過去實害發生之後才進行的話"},{"start":4390.447,"end":4408.287,"text":"那這個其實就是看得到抓不到因為他前置的組織甚至宣示效忠甚至接觸網絡就是我們剛剛提到的不管是中間人或者是參與的時候其實是這樣的漏洞其實你會讓這個我們對於整個國安的管制疲於奔命因為一定要到最後時害發生才會有產生"},{"start":4408.988,"end":4432.684,"text":"所以如果現在能夠在這個國安法制當中現在你看不管是中間人也好不管是這個參與也好去明確的明文化甚至包括效忠義的問題都把它明文化的話其實是有助於更清楚的去防堵整個境外敵對勢力它前置的落洞那一樣從各國的比較法當中來看的話其實美國我就不復述那些法制的內容就美國澳洲跟加拿大"},{"start":4433.084,"end":4450.909,"text":"其實現在都已經把重點放在早期辨識就是所謂早期辨識你是不是已經進入到外國的任務鏈當中而且受他控制指揮那當然譬如說外國代理人法外國資金的這些介入等等而不是說你真的要有發生結果我才來進行相關的國安的查處跟管制"},{"start":4451.629,"end":4469.458,"text":"所以這個部分其實不管是這個要參與行為或者是中間人的部分其實是可以適度的去考慮甚至委員們其他的版本之類當中也有提到說更精準的譬如說接受承諾"},{"start":4470.338,"end":4490.947,"text":"這個指揮命令或者是受指示在轉介這些東西然後其實可以有更精準的這種行為樣態可以讓這樣的參與行為更明確因為其他的這個委員版本也有類似的這樣子的一個提案我覺得都可以作為參考但是大原則就是這樣子的漏洞是非常需要即刻去加以補強的好"},{"start":4493.548,"end":4518.89,"text":"第四個部分那個退休給予的部分我的看法跟楊老師離開了跟楊老師有一點點不一樣當然基本上現在這個行政院版的所提出來的這種所謂的這樣子的一個有罪先停一半然後無罪補發然後整個有罪剝奪這樣子的balance的版本我是基本是贊成的因為它兼顧了整個的程序保障還有嚇阻的功能"},{"start":4519.43,"end":4541.078,"text":"因為如果你基本上被認定在一審中間是你有相關的這個國安法罪的話可是一直到定驗才去剝奪那個不管在社會觀感或是對這個人本身在這段長時間的司法訴訟當中的待遇其實都是不橫平的但是如果你說這現在是這樣那如果你說一開始就"},{"start":4541.778,"end":4561.297,"text":"全部停掉那恐怕也有一些爭議存在那我覺得台灣因為這樣子的退銷案例其實在其他國家的這個比較法當中是比較少見的譬如說美國還是以判決判決確定為準可是台灣因為我們在兩岸的特殊性譬如說"},{"start":4562.818,"end":4580.446,"text":"退休公務員或是相關的退離職的這些重要人士他可能有時候就是常住大陸或者是往往常常常常往來而在那個情況之下跟其他國家的樣態是不太一樣的所以我基本上還是行政院的版本但是我也贊成就是說"},{"start":4581.326,"end":4607.95,"text":"基本上你還是要給他有相關的司法救濟管道特別是假設他定驗之後是無罪的情況這兩者之間那甚至到底要到什麼樣程度的國安犯罪才去用這個動才去用這樣子的一個機制我覺得這還是可以考慮的不過這個當然是尊重在立法院後續的討論那整大的方向我覺得在退休給予的部分去做相關的程序上的"},{"start":4609.351,"end":4613.454,"text":"往前的一個嚇阻 我覺得這是正確的方向好 第五個"},{"start":4614.471,"end":4639.23,"text":"鼓吹戰爭言論這個部分其實我們要focus在說現在行政院版本就很清楚的是在講鼓吹戰爭言論那這個剛剛在相關的這個政務部門的報告當中也提到了不管是公正公約裡面所提到的或者是這個其他國家歐美民主國家相關對鼓吹戰爭言論的這個反應都是相當都是一致的就基本上它就是一個違反公正公約違反國際人權的一個標準可是"},{"start":4643.132,"end":4671.349,"text":"可能我的看法是這個部分當然要去做更精準的禁止目前的行政院的版本這個方向是可行的可是有兩個東西第一個就是說這個鼓吹有一種是組織性的鼓吹它是像英國、澳洲、加拿大它的處分方式它不去特別去針對個人的親外的鼓吹的一個部分那當然那還有前一段戰爭是這個違反兩國公正規約的部分但是如果是"},{"start":4672.37,"end":4686.69,"text":"整個的部分親外言論的部分相對是不處罰的但是如果是受外國驅動的那這個部分他是有相對的罰則的不過我完全贊成剛剛內政部的這個報告當中所提到的芬蘭跟拉脯洋因為台灣的"},{"start":4688.232,"end":4705.188,"text":"國家屬性特殊性更接近於剛剛所提到的這些國家我們面對一個危險而止強大的外敵那在那樣的情況之下其實我們更聚焦在整個鼓吹的內容當中我覺得這方向是沒有問題的只是說"},{"start":4706.809,"end":4722.42,"text":"能不能進一步去這個明確化定義或者是更進一步確認這個東西就是對於戰爭沒有祸及到其他部分我覺得這個部分可能也是考慮到未來的言論自由跟國家安全的橫平的一個部分"},{"start":4724.562,"end":4747.239,"text":"如果是受到外國驅動的做這樣子的一個代理跟宣傳那可能又要區分他的這個責任的輕重一個是自己高喊武統一個是他可能受到境外勢力的這個代理或境外勢力的資助來做武統的宣傳我覺得這個部分也可能可以去思考說他後面刑法的這個強弱的差異"},{"start":4748.36,"end":4770.372,"text":"最後一個是有關於敵對勢力錯假訊息的處置問題這個部分其實確實是一個比較麻煩的問題因為它會涉及到說現在的數位資訊網路安全跟言論自由到國家安全之間的一個橫平性的問題那我看了一下行政院的版本大概都基本focus在這個所謂的"},{"start":4773.754,"end":4799.884,"text":"這個網路這個制定者就是這些的商家的部分所以在這樣的情況之下到底要怎麼樣去做強制下架移除啦限制瀏覽等等等等之類的確實有那樣子的一個必要性因為特別是台灣是全世界受到所謂錯假訊息攻擊最嚴重的國家不過如果參考國外的比較法的話像歐盟或者是"},{"start":4801.505,"end":4830.648,"text":"英國美國這些東西但目前沒有採取說在這個行政機關管方恰恰錯誤訊息還是聚焦於平台責任還有這個外國的城市款控管的部分甚至包括透明度系統性透明度的要求所以我會建議說這樣子的一個法規是要放進來的可是後來可能在相關的這個錯假訊息的處置當中包括了明確的直接適應的連結這個重大迫切的國安危害"},{"start":4831.168,"end":4849.922,"text":"等等這些可能要納入甚至我記得應該是李昆城委員吧他有一個提案他的提案當中就提到說應該要行政部門要定期的針對各個平台上面的這些催促進取的資訊我應該我覺得書法部有在做了做更多的國安上面的揭露來藉此去要求平台的這種所謂的"},{"start":4850.802,"end":4869.855,"text":"責任我覺得這部分都是可以去強化的不過整個方向來看國安法納入這種對於敵對勢力挫甲軍旗的處置不管特別是對平台端的責任的克責我覺得這個部分也是一個未來必然要去修法的一個方向所以以上六個部分其實最後還是簡單講一下就是說基本上"},{"start":4871.236,"end":4887.111,"text":"我覺得現在的狀況就是說我們現在對於國安法的修訂其實是因為整個境外勢力它的多元化跟這種精緻化的變化所以其實我們的配套可能就要更完整的"},{"start":4887.951,"end":4912.559,"text":"去做整個的補強那目前看起來行政院版本他在這個國家安全法當中的每個面向都去補足了現在對於中國他各種樣態的滲透也好或者是國安的威脅也好所以我覺得重點是現在應該是趕快的來進行下一個階段的討論跟修法讓我們現在的面對的各式各樣的樣態的這個國安漏洞可以加以補強 以上 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝王智慎教授寶貴的意見"},{"start":4918.946,"end":4940.86,"text":"接下來我們請東吳大學教授洪兆成教授我們一樣有時間計時大家請你暢所欲言 謝謝好 朱熹今天與會的各位先進今天非常榮幸能夠參與這場公聽會今天這個題目條件提供大概有六個基於時間問題我們可能就是一到五的部分可能我這邊稍微分享一下這個"},{"start":4941.881,"end":4960.222,"text":"我的意見還有一些還有可能海外各國那我這邊主要是日本的相關的一些可能之前的一些相關的處置那第六個部分可能就先稍微發表一下我的目前的一個看法那首先就是說第一面對提綱以後面對這個境外敵對勢力各種統戰色透作為日區的現行國安法是否足以應對其實"},{"start":4961.383,"end":4984.434,"text":"如果說看一下現在國安法的規定主要的做法是想要先抓所謂的首腦也就是說比較是屬於上層的人士但是其實正如同最近的一個趨勢其實譬如說以詐騙集團來說現在大部分的做法都應該是沒辦法一開始就抓到首腦你可能必須從下層開始繼續順藤摸瓜的一個抓上去才有機會 當然這邊講的是機會不是說一定抓得到 才有機會抓到首腦"},{"start":4987.836,"end":5001.183,"text":"所以在這個狀況下來說的話如果一開始只針對首腦的話那你就喪失了這個從有下往上的這個機會所以說那當然是不是足以應對那可能就要看看後面的幾個提綱的目前的一個看法那如果如果說如果當結論上來說的話可能"},{"start":5003.044,"end":5023.892,"text":"還是有需要補強的一個部分那這是第一個部分第二個部分就是關於這個意圖危害國家安全與社會安定的主觀過程要見是否妥適那剛剛前面兩位的前面的馮教授那其實跟楊教授其實也有提過提到一些類似的看法就是說以前所謂的意圖要見其實他有他證明的困難性那我這邊要"},{"start":5025.293,"end":5043.224,"text":"其實意圖要件不只是一個證明的困難性問題意圖要件原本的用途是在區分行為本身的性質以及它的一個危險性那其實它在這早期被廣泛的利用譬如說所謂的強制猥褻之前有所謂的傾向犯的規定還有關於所謂的操縱市場有所謂的意圖"},{"start":5044.725,"end":5056.432,"text":"但現在還是有一個意圖就是意圖影響市場股價的經濟刑法上面以及等等的一個部分其實意圖要件當然就是面臨的一個問題就是說它其實是個主觀超出故意的一個要件所以說是沒有客觀的事實來跟它對應的像剛剛楊教授講的好像只能依靠自白"},{"start":5066.617,"end":5092.77,"text":"所以說其實近年來漸漸的調整譬如說這邊分享一個案例其實這個是屬於刑法一開始修法的一個案例譬如說這個以前在當時刑法一開始修法的時候所謂的衛照貨幣跟衛照右家證券都是說意圖行使而衛照但是在衛照文書本來是採取同樣的方式但是後來他們覺得說只有意圖行使這樣太窄了衛照文書應該有更多所以才改成了現在的足以生工損害於公眾或他人這個是記載在這個"},{"start":5093.991,"end":5110.926,"text":"黃文聖老師的《新莫名出》的史料概觀裡面的一個地方他有提到這樣的一個修法理由那所以說簡單來說這兩個東西其實是有一個互換的可能性的也就是說意圖要件跟所謂的足身事性概要件其實在如果說我們從這個修法之外來看起來它其實是有互換的一個可能性所以說"},{"start":5111.627,"end":5127.114,"text":"在這個地方呢如果說把意圖要件拿掉然後把所有的自信犯要件放進來那也就是說你認識這些東西甚至也認識到這些東西有足深的這樣的一個效果的話其實我覺得是有取代意圖要件的功用也可以避免意圖要件過度困難的問題當然啦意圖要件它"},{"start":5127.634,"end":5151.25,"text":"其實它象徵了一個更強大的一個更強的一個限縮那這個更強的限縮其實它對於某一些邊際的案例還是有它的一個必要性不過這個部分的話如果說未來有類似的問題的話我會建議可以使用所謂的有點類似主確違法事由的方式去做一些排除那這個相關的案例其實也可以鑑於所謂的"},{"start":5151.95,"end":5172.251,"text":"關於關於關於我們的這個證券交易法裡面內線交易的部分那當時就有說到底需不需要有獨立意圖還是說要是是需是是需要用知悉然後再用然後然後在這個主協會法事由上面再規定幾款可以排除的事由那那個時候講說已經有原定的交易計畫那其實因為如果說考量到"},{"start":5172.932,"end":5197.601,"text":"考量到意圖他有過度限縮然後足以可能也會有一點點的一些擴張的部分的話我會建議就是這乾脆就針對這個可能去覺得會有點過度的一個部分去做經營一些主缺違法事由可能會是比較適合的做法那接下來是關於參與的部分就是那個那個提綱三的這個部分那首先就是參與就就就同我前面所提到的就是一般現在現在的現在對於這樣的犯罪的這種"},{"start":5198.041,"end":5217.98,"text":"類似組織犯罪的防治不管是詐騙集團也好或者現在或者是我們今天要談的所謂的國安的這種組織也好環外國安的組織也好他其實他的抓法其實都通常都是由下往上由下往上那以這個角度來說的話參與當然是絕對參與的處罰我覺得是有必要的有必要只是說問題是要怎麼在如同前面的馮教授有講但是問題是要怎麼"},{"start":5219.461,"end":5240.576,"text":"怎麼參與是加入就好還是要跟這個組織犯罪條例的實務間接一樣要加入並且參與工作那要參與什麼樣的一個工作那是要參與什麼樣的工作這邊我可以分享一下就是關於這個日本在這個2017年的修法他們修所謂的恐怖當然他們的對象是跨國際組織犯罪跨國組織犯罪"},{"start":5242.617,"end":5265.425,"text":"他們的六條支援針對恐怖組織跟其他組織的犯罪集團他就說這些人可能就是必須根據其犯罪計畫去準備資金跟物品去找相關的一些犯罪場所等等去做一些為了實行的準備行為的時候那就依照以下各款的刑度"},{"start":5265.825,"end":5280.858,"text":"所以說在這個前提之下我會認為說目前的參與有加上足以的適性犯要件雖然我覺得是一個正確我覺得是一個我自己也贊同的一個方向可是那是不是可能也要需要加一些加一些所謂的可能"},{"start":5281.578,"end":5309.922,"text":"類似的行為也就是說譬如說什麼A行為B行為譬如說什麼準備然後或者準備或者是提供資金等等類似其他其他足以生國安損害的行為那又透過用類似概念的比較讓我們知道說這樣讓把這個罪行的明確性把它更明確的定清楚當然了其實因為日本的規定跟我們不太一樣因為我們是採取用參與我們是我們對於組織犯罪是採取參與模式跟德國一樣的參與模式那日本是採取合一模式也就是共謀犯也就是一種共謀"},{"start":5310.422,"end":5324.317,"text":"英美也是共謀犯罪的性質這點可能有點不一樣但是在要求所謂的實際的參與行為是什麼的部分我覺得應該也多多少少可以參考一下接下來進入到提綱時間差不多現在趕快進入到提綱四的部分"},{"start":5329.562,"end":5349.66,"text":"那就是說,是不是有救判決權,死得剝奪財產權號,死之錯虛,追繳困難,是否妥適?其實現在刑法也好,民法也好,其實都有一種為了沒收而先行扣押的規定譬如說刑法在之前的修法,其實民法有所謂的假扣押"},{"start":5351.101,"end":5378.961,"text":"刑法也有所謂的就是為了未來的沒收而先行扣押的一個規定那從這個角度來看的話似乎好像也沒有說到完全到這個完全不行那當然相關的這個部分那目前行政院版的草案是先一半然後之後確定一審判決先一半之後無罪再回覆那或許可以如果說但是如果參考到所謂的那個假扣押實在是在偵查的時候就可以證的這個狀況下的話"},{"start":5380.942,"end":5404.722,"text":"或許可以在早期一個其他時點譬如說起訴前 起訴時等等的這個當然是可以在思考的一個部分那只是目前提供一些不成熟的想法最後一個就是其他國家對於鼓吹戰爭言論如何處置那這個地方稍微分享一下日本的建議那因為日本現在當然是沒事但是在1960年代到1990年代其實在面對所謂的這個大規模的有些是學運 有些是真的就是蘇聯指示 蘇聯支持"},{"start":5407.684,"end":5435.226,"text":"當然當時是蘇聯啦 蘇聯只是蘇聯支持的一些團體的時候他們有訂定所謂的破壞活動防止法的38條到41條針對煽動 針對煽動所謂的這個內亂外患 外患資源還有一些比較嚴重的這個公共危險的犯罪 放火等等的那這個問題 這樣這樣的一個煽動的犯罪是不是 會不會有影響言論自由的問題呢他們在1990年的這個最高法院的判決有一個結論"},{"start":5436.147,"end":5450.204,"text":"他們提到說就算是表現活動也不是絕對毫無限制的容許如果說這個反於公共福祉然後超越表現自由的界限的時候也必須要受到一些限制那他剛剛講的這些煽動講的是所謂的放火罪的煽動放這些煽動那其實是有"},{"start":5452.507,"end":5469.599,"text":"其實是屬於可能會引起所謂的限住建造物的放火罪還有騷擾罪等等的重大犯罪的可能性是屬於社會的行為所以他覺得說不適合受到表現資格的保護所以必須要受到限制所以他認為說這樣的煽動罪是不處罰當然在對於這個實務判決大法庭的判決不然是小法庭的判決"},{"start":5470.78,"end":5489.441,"text":"學說上面有一些不同的意見那剛剛也有看到其實有些後面有專家有提到所謂的明白或顯著的危險那這邊再補充一個就是1969年這個有提到一個東西有提到的這樣的一個判決就是說這樣的行為必須是要煽動所謂的迫切的非合法的行為那這個然後這樣的行為除了這個"},{"start":5492.805,"end":5505.477,"text":"第二個就是這樣的行為發展有發生的蓋然性有存在於發生蓋然性的場合這個時候就可以簡單學說的標準是相較於實務的標準更加嚴格的那這個部分當然也就提供給各位先進參考那最後一個部分就是關於所謂的這個"},{"start":5507.899,"end":5533.011,"text":"錯假訊息危害國家安全的部分那我個人也是不同目前啦就是關於錯假訊息如果說依照前面的邏輯再往下的話對於錯假訊息可能還是要視錯假訊息的性質給予規範就這一點來說的話我們現在譬如說有針對所謂的這種重大的衛生訊息或針對跟所謂的這個國安等等有關的訊息就跟國安有些特殊的訊息進行規範這一點我倒是可以至於要不要規範完整的對於錯假訊息的規範"},{"start":5536.212,"end":5562.492,"text":"這個部分我個人會認為說目前的做法就是針對所謂的網域提供者進行管理的做法相對而言是比較合理的做法因為譬如說他有所謂因為身為提供者當接到舉報可能有錯假訊息的危險他可能就必須要負擔一定程度的查核義務這點我覺得是可行的那其實譬如說像剛剛楊老師已經離開了譬如說像德國他針對所謂的這個"},{"start":5564.273,"end":5591.924,"text":"針對所有網站提供者如果發現網路上有跟犯罪有關的訊息沒有及時移除的話其實是有可能成立相關的中性行為綁住的一個問題這個地方其實之前也有被討論好那以上是我的發言謝謝謝謝洪教授你為了時間講話速度非常快謝謝謝謝你寶貴的意見接下來我們請登記第五位桂洪誠民主基金會董事長謝謝"},{"start":5596.96,"end":5625.858,"text":"謝謝我們一樣有限時啦但是也歡迎暢所欲言謝謝還有各位學者專家以及各位媒體記者大家好今天我有這個機會來這邊表達一下我對修正國安法的一些看法那麼我想說我把問題一開始我想說先跟"},{"start":5626.727,"end":5643.832,"text":"來看看這個問題從立法技術上我們來看來看這個問題該怎麼來思考我們主要先提供一點思考首先我們來看我們在這個立法說明裡面我們一開始就講近年來境外敵對勢力對我國滲透守法日趨多元等等等等"},{"start":5644.952,"end":5669.187,"text":"可是我們為什麼不是修改反滲透法呢反滲透法裡面規定的規範的這個主體就是境外敵對勢力啊而且這邊也提到是滲透啊那你那我們那如果你知道有反滲透法存在的話我看到這個一開始的這個立法理由我就會認為說為什麼不修改反滲透法而放在國安法那這個可能就是一種"},{"start":5670.694,"end":5695.45,"text":"一定程度上它就是一個我後面會講到的一種宣傳宣傳目的那我們再來看國安法第二條規定得很清楚任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力等等等等派遣之為以下之行為法律規定得很清楚任何人不得不得為外國大陸地區所以大陸地區不是外國"},{"start":5696.331,"end":5715.859,"text":"好 香港澳門境外敵對勢力所以大陸地區不是境外敵對勢力那麼請問現在我們所界定的境外敵對勢力怎麼會跟中共呢中共是不是大陸地區的那個當權者那如果是的話法律已經區分得很清楚境外敵對勢力跟大陸地區是區分的那你為什麼要寫"},{"start":5717.247,"end":5737.318,"text":"那你今天是針對大陸地區的話你乾脆就直接寫大陸地區你為什麼要寫境外敵對勢力因為境外敵對勢力的話這個規範是放在反滲透法雖然你把大陸在反滲透法裡面你把大陸地區歸為境外敵對勢力之一外國也是可是你在國安法的話你就要適用國安法這個要怎麼處理"},{"start":5740.054,"end":5759.771,"text":"外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力都是個別不同的主體那你今天如果要規範是境外敵對勢力的話你就要先告訴我們什麼是境外敵對勢力但是不能是大陸地區喔那如果你今天完全是針對大陸地區你就直接寫大陸地區嘛"},{"start":5762.35,"end":5790.803,"text":"那如果你那如果這樣子混淆過去的話我們就會又會發生一些問題那我這邊特別有提到總統也沒有權宣告大陸地區或者外國是境外敵對勢力境外敵對勢力法律有規定只能適用在反滲透法裡面那種狀況那在這邊的話就不能做這樣一個宣告這是我一個從立法基礎上我首先要提出這個質疑"},{"start":5792.421,"end":5815.635,"text":"當然我們現在要看的話我們今天制定國安法的話一定是有它一個很特殊的一個需要那這個需要的話相對於國安法它的立法過程制定法律一開始比如說民國76年我們第一次制定的國安法當時是因為解除戒嚴而戒嚴期間所謂的所謂的入出境管制三地"},{"start":5816.937,"end":5842.008,"text":"沿海這些都是軍方在管為了解除戒嚴改由警察來管的時候我們制定了國家安全法所以我們可以去看一下國家安全法有施行記者它裡面大部分規定的是什麼東西跟現在我們要討論的完全無關但是呢我們自從邁入了自由民主之後我們發現國家安全越來越麻煩了越來越危險了你就表示當時的戒嚴是對的嗎"},{"start":5843.786,"end":5872.64,"text":"自己的民主之後我們越不安全了到了民國111年我們修正全文20條增加一倍而民國76年修正的時候當時民進黨還抗議啊國安法是奴隸法我們現在也蠻慚愧的我們可能準備要被奴隸了是這個概念嗎這個要思考一下啊那你起碼你要制定這個法律你要告訴我們而且是誰有權說現在是什麼狀況你就說我們現在就是"},{"start":5874.82,"end":5894.105,"text":"處於一個極為類似過去動員戡亂時期而且我們極可能發生戰爭的狀況就告訴大家反正我們要服兵我們要增加了這很正常接下來我們再直接看條文這也是我提供立法技術上的問題請大家看任何人不得"},{"start":5896.111,"end":5920.679,"text":"等等等等 圖畫餘下等等等等公開鼓吹倡議或支持換言之鼓吹不等於倡議鼓吹跟倡議是有差別的跟支持也有程度的不同那請問什麼是鼓吹 什麼是倡議很明顯 支持很明顯啊但是什麼叫鼓吹 什麼叫倡議"},{"start":5923.046,"end":5942.933,"text":"你不確定的法律概念你要寫出來因為你如果在立法理由裡面你現在不寫清楚的話將來在執行的時候就會被無限擴大這是我們現在已經看到的狀況完全不符合當時的立法理由然後變成行政機關實質上修改的法律了"},{"start":5943.737,"end":5964.014,"text":"因為他完全變更了當時立法理由的原意做出所謂的行政解釋這是麻煩的事情這是嚴重違背依法行政原則的狀況所以我們就要問什麼叫鼓吹什麼叫倡議如果根據這個條文我假設我今天有人我就支持好了"},{"start":5965.103,"end":5986.554,"text":"甚至我鼓吹好了我支持香港或澳門對我國發動戰爭或者採取非和平手段消滅我國主權如果真的有人鼓吹香港或澳門的話那真笑欸有影響到人嗎那港澳人他自己聽到這個話他會覺得你們這個台灣人是發瘋了嗎可是你政府必須要依法行政的時候你就必須要處罰他了"},{"start":5995.438,"end":6019.241,"text":"沒有人會認為他是正常人的這樣一個言論,可是你就要處罰因為港澳,港澳會要,港澳要消滅我們嗎?你說有可能嗎?好,同樣的我們來問如果我今天公開鼓吹帛琉共和國請他對我們發動戰爭,我也違法啊可是你也是笑的啊,帛琉沒有軍隊啊人口兩萬多人啊,我們派"},{"start":6020.919,"end":6049.232,"text":"新北市某一個區就把它整個消滅掉了那這樣的一個主張或者是一個支持有問題嗎?要處罰嗎?這是我們的問題啊鄭朱實際經驗只有政府的統治行為才可能導致戰爭OK我再趕快講一下我們剛剛一直提到那個主管機關也提到所謂的公民與政治權利公約我們請看一下我們是內國法化了"},{"start":6050.014,"end":6063.592,"text":"有中文英文是什麼有一個是對於那個戰爭的那邊有一個propaganda那對於那個仇恨的所以這兩個是不同的概念喔這要寫清楚喔"},{"start":6066.052,"end":6081.963,"text":"那麼應該立法禁止的是propaganda什麼叫propaganda我就請各位自己看簡單說美國政治學者他一開始就一直在講這個東西尤其是美國的政治學者他在講這個用這個詞的時候他主要是講美國人"},{"start":6083.445,"end":6109.748,"text":"運用在政府鼓勵國人仇視敵國這也要受限制的如果符合公民與政治權利公約的話這個也要受到限制的那這個部分來說的話就是非常值得我們思考真正會導致戰爭的勝負我跳著講這個你們就請大家自己看我再請問一個問題美國美國正在發動戰爭他有沒有禁止"},{"start":6111.055,"end":6136.127,"text":"有啊!他禁止反戰啦!他禁止反戰那美國是自由民主國家的典範他雖然有簽署這個公約可是他沒有內國法化為什麼?因為他是主動要發動戰爭的他過去的經驗他只有禁止或者是壓制所謂的反戰言論包括現在也是"},{"start":6137.028,"end":6146.782,"text":"美國沒有啊自由民主國家沒有一定要限制的啊那這部分的話實際上的關係我就請大家自己參考另外特別提到大英百科全書對這個詞有一個定義還有"},{"start":6151.547,"end":6175.394,"text":"我們立法理由裡面有提到第11號的一般性應屆我這邊有做一個說明也請參考因為立法理由可能說明的不完整我把他這邊引出來他主要是強調要限制人民去鼓勵政府倡議去導致一個侵略行動所以政府也要受到限制的也要立法限制這不得宣傳戰爭行為"},{"start":6177.792,"end":6194.959,"text":"這個還是我們所謂那個政治權力那個公約的一個重要的一個內涵此外立法理由裡面也說明也說到芬蘭的狀況芬蘭的狀況整個完整來說的話它有一個大前提以發生或即將發生軍事危機"},{"start":6196.209,"end":6220.142,"text":"或國際政治危機期間才有這些限制包括公開勸告,勸告而已喔要達到勸告程度,外國對芬蘭發動戰爭或者芬蘭去打外國那另外他這邊有一個限制,所謂系統性散佈等等等等等等這就是所謂Papaganda"},{"start":6221.189,"end":6246.989,"text":"他所要限制的也就是我們講的政治權力公約裡面要立法限制那個要有一個系統性的毫無根據的誤導性的那通常對政治學者來說的話我們的研究都認為經常在誤導的導致戰爭的是政府老百姓的機率極低因為老百姓影響力沒有那麼大那另外我有兩個我一直很快的"},{"start":6248.204,"end":6259.425,"text":"所謂那個剝奪退休金那個事情我簡單說我建議這條應該刪除回歸比如說軍人的話就回歸軍人的公務員回歸公務員的相關退服制度裡面去規定"},{"start":6260.663,"end":6281.65,"text":"那至於說我們立法理由裡面說來有說追繳不容易啊哎呀所以過去的經驗政府追繳很容易啊哪有什麼不容易啊何況權力保障優先於行政的方便性這是很基本的原則那如果你堅持要寫這個理由的話我也沒意見反而可以讓大家了解政府的想法行政的那個"},{"start":6282.49,"end":6307.319,"text":"行政的方便性會優於權力保障那另外提綱裡面還提到一個向德恩的那個狀況那我這邊有提到一些基本的邏輯看法我也請大家參考 我不另外多講最後回顧到一下 重新思考一下當時民進黨主張只要解嚴不要國安法 為什麼那這個部分我們就提供大家參考好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":6311.428,"end":6326.837,"text":"來 謝謝我們非常感謝龜泳城董事長寶貴的意見 謝謝接下來 抱歉讓這個蔣教授久等我們請蔣貴美教授發表時間一樣八分鐘 也請暢所欲言 謝謝主席 在場各位來賓先進"},{"start":6335.762,"end":6362.454,"text":"實際上我九點準時到的就沒想到談到最後不過很好因為可以傾聽大家的意見不過聽了前面有些學者的意見我覺得有點觸目驚心當中聽到一句讓我覺得不知人權為何物的觀點說不見得這個國安問題不見得要是損害發生才能追究"},{"start":6364.175,"end":6377.236,"text":"那這邊會談到一個民主國家最基本的原理原則我們在所謂的罪罰相當罪責相當的原則之下你要符合證據法則"},{"start":6379.315,"end":6401.116,"text":"那如果在證據不清楚的情況之下而又事前來做防範的這個刑責追究我覺得那完全不是民主國家的原理原則這個讓我們教書人不知道怎麼教那我們當然非常清楚這個國安法裡面很多是思想自由言論自由的問題"},{"start":6402.617,"end":6427.405,"text":"思想自由言論自由我在書面報告裡面第一個就提到憲法第十一條憲法十一條它寫得非常簡略可是中華民國走到現在不是一蹴可及的所以我們過去非常清楚包含了抗亂時期終止的時候把刑法一百條意圖犯刪掉"},{"start":6428.445,"end":6443.585,"text":"那當然非常更清楚的包含了大法官過去的態度大法官在這個我們非常民國87年那是刊亂終止以後大概六七年的時間他做了一個445號的釋憲"},{"start":6446.297,"end":6474.689,"text":"那445號視線離現在已經快30年了可是以那時候的民主化的思想自由的標準它針對的是什麼呢?集會遊行那最後解釋被解釋成違憲違憲的關鍵原因是什麼?它違反了明顯而即刻的違憲那這個只要讀過書的人都知道Clear and persistent danger taste"},{"start":6478.314,"end":6504.344,"text":"這個原則在美國憲法的修正增修第一條就有為什麼我們過了幾十年後到現在還在談這個問題明顯而即刻的危險那這個案子後來在各國甚至包含美國本土過去都有發生過司法上的訴訟那這是長期以來確立的標準到我們國家的時候已經是民國87年了"},{"start":6506.397,"end":6522.311,"text":"那八十幾年當時我們覺得這個一點都不先進為什麼 別的國家已經幾十年了我們才終於踩到明顯而即刻的危險作為一個人權保障言論保障思想自由的一個最根本的門檻三十年後的今天我們的證據法則罪責相當行政權不介入事前審查思想的部分"},{"start":6535.003,"end":6559.235,"text":"如果沒有具體的行為上的證據力足堪認為你已經產生實質的國家安全的危害那這個叫做明顯而極客危險的適用原則嗎格若不知道這個沒有幾年之後我們大法官呢在97年又出現了一個釋字644號"},{"start":6562.762,"end":6572.948,"text":"那剛才的4.45號 因為時間有限我不詳細講那你當然知道4.45號當時針對的集會遊行法裡面呢 它針對的是什麼主張共產主義或分裂國土大法官認為說不達到明顯而即刻的違憲所以你要用行政權事前來介入 這個是違憲的"},{"start":6587.81,"end":6590.378,"text":"那可是 隔了幾年 97年之後我們又出現了644號解釋"},{"start":6594.861,"end":6619.343,"text":"六四四號解釋是針對人民團體法因為當時並沒有政黨法但是它有政黨這一章那所以呢在人民團體法裡面它這個六四四號針對的是什麼一樣的問題針對人民他主張所謂的共產主義或者是主張分裂國土我們現在的國安法不是一直在談這個問題嗎"},{"start":6621.26,"end":6636.978,"text":"那為什麼不去看看過去的解釋標準呢還在把過去的這兩號重要的解釋掃入歷史另建新的標準而你新的標準你要在憲法的基本原則下你要怎麼去解釋"},{"start":6638.922,"end":6654.671,"text":"那當然這個644號的人團法裡面它除了我們剛剛說的明顯而極客的違憲它還適用了一個非常重要的原則就是事前審查呢它是違反必要性原則的所以違憲行為沒有具體的損害產生"},{"start":6660.495,"end":6675.423,"text":"沒有所謂明顯而即刻的違憲那你這時候事前就要進入審查事前就要把刑法拉進來這個當然是違憲的那所以644號是民國幾年?它是民國97年耶過去的解釋我們今天是進入動員勘案時期了嘛那你至少要有一個高於什麼高於法律的什麼什麼條款"},{"start":6690.933,"end":6699.738,"text":"你今天什麼都沒有在現行的憲法之下你要做這麼大幅度的打破過去的標準請問何所本好當然另外一個問題接踵而來另外一個問題我們非常清楚啊兩岸關係的定位那這個大家已經說破嘴了為什麼誰都可以講一套問題是我們必須言之有理啊"},{"start":6721.073,"end":6739.566,"text":"兩岸關係條例從哪來的呢它是從憲法徵修條文來的憲法徵修條文第十一條民人授權以法律定制但是授權之前它做了一個明確化的原則它非常清楚說自由地區跟大陸地區那事實上是兩區的概念那這是明定在憲法徵修第十一條裡面"},{"start":6749.349,"end":6772.579,"text":"那後來呢 我們當然根據這個政協第11條就出現兩岸關係的條例好 那這個主席 我再時間延長一點點 不會太長教授你可以暢所欲言 謝謝很快可以結束那所以呢 我們在憲法第11條 授權兩岸關係條例這是憲法保留的條款 不是法律保留的條款"},{"start":6773.539,"end":6790.224,"text":"它是憲法保留的憲法保留的法律上來定的條款呢當跟兩岸關係其他條文發生漢格的時候哪一個優先這個可能連大一學生都知道特別法尤其優先適用它是兩區的概念"},{"start":6794.025,"end":6803.881,"text":"那當然如果再回到憲法前言那這個我就不講了憲法前言的前四個字什麼非常清楚也就是國家統一前"},{"start":6806.348,"end":6830.139,"text":"那這個是涉及到什麼呢?涉及到我們一個非常重要的概念憲法跟憲律剛才前面我忘了是哪個學者提到Karl Schmitt的觀點我想讀過公法的人都非常清楚那Schmitt的觀點他一直強調什麼?他一直強調說因為他生在動盪時代 微妙共和的時代他一直強調說"},{"start":6833.144,"end":6856.478,"text":"宪法落实在实际政治上的时候你要找到它的宪政秩序啊当你这么多条纹互相汉格冲突的时候你的秩序是稳定的嘛那所以徐密特说宪法里面最怕的是什么最怕的是价值介入它不应该有任何价值进去啊"},{"start":6858.544,"end":6877.328,"text":"台灣人定在那很清楚啊那我們為什麼可以把台灣人視而不見然後透過很多種方式來彼此漢戈那所以我們當然實力上很清楚過去我在監察院服務的時候書面裡面我提到了一個109內調這個0078號的這個案子"},{"start":6881.567,"end":6906.488,"text":"那是109年結案的一個案子當時媒體叫做查水表案那當然法律上沒有這個名詞他的法源是根據什麼法?社會秩序維護法第63條第五項 第五款那社會秩序維護法呢後來到現在那款仍然沒有改"},{"start":6907.881,"end":6930.891,"text":"可是有一點令人失望的關鍵原因是什麼因為那個調查報告裡面因為去一個台大教授去一個很多人家去抓人家然後把人家移送移送了之後最後很多案子出來沒事不成比例也抓了一堆人最後出來大部分都沒事"},{"start":6933.646,"end":6960.231,"text":"那後來當時我們約尋了法務部也約尋了警政最高這個首長幾乎都約尋了當時在我離開監察院109年最後之前有關機關呢信誓旦旦的說一定會修法那後來隔了幾年我如果沒有記錯應該是兩年前政府機關呢應該是蔡總統時代"},{"start":6963.689,"end":6977.912,"text":"請國際人權學者來台灣針對兩公約落實的情況來進行評鑒這個評鑒報告到現在掛在法務部網站我前兩天還在看了一下 看它有沒有下架這個報告裡面寫什麼總結意見裡面 大家仔細看總結意見裡面 它有一點非常清楚的說"},{"start":6990.049,"end":7004.412,"text":"我們涉違法也就是針對查水表案他說違反了明確化原則尤其涉及到形式的必須更符合明確化原則才能夠達到民主國家的標準那可是為什麼我在書面報告裡面對這一條文我們沒有一條一條去分析為什麼他的明確化很多是不夠的"},{"start":7017.401,"end":7042.561,"text":"那今天呢這個報告國際學者的評估而且國際學者據我的觀察不同政府時代找的學者都不大一樣這是執政政府自己找來的學者他的評鑑非常清楚那這是我們常說的查水表案那後來我就發現一個問題107年呢我查那個案子的時候他比前一年"},{"start":7043.911,"end":7049.795,"text":"查出來的所謂的這個散播謠言多了七倍啊暴增了七倍他的裁罰率幾乎不到兩成那你為什麼會暴增到七倍那裁罰率還是一樣啊那這是什麼作用我看不懂這叫寒蟬效應嘛 先把你嚇死再說嘛"},{"start":7072.585,"end":7083.951,"text":"那所以為什麼耗這些人力耗這些功夫然後逢到選舉年因為那年有選舉暴增了比前年多了幾乎六七倍這樣對嗎當然不對啊那所以呢我在法務部統計處的相關資料為了來這個公聽會我簡單查了一下檢查機關辦理特定國安案件的統計"},{"start":7102.452,"end":7119.365,"text":"在109年到現在為止國安法109年還沒有,隔了幾年出來109年到現在為止我們113年,這指的是民國起訴的人數是170個人,達到高峰好啦,執行裁判確定有罪的人多少?23個"},{"start":7128.385,"end":7149.43,"text":"起訴跟所謂的裁判確定這麼不相干嗎那跟我前面說的查水表案雖然不大一樣一個是秩序法一個是刑法但是至少先秩序法吧已經秩序法的明確性都被國際學者糾正"},{"start":7151.601,"end":7172.675,"text":"那網談刑法更何況符合我們剛剛說的明顯而即刻的危險嗎符合我們剛剛說的證據法則嗎符合我們剛剛說的剛才的兩號非常重要的釋憲案裡面445跟644號大法官一直強調憲法第幾條23條"},{"start":7176.65,"end":7186.238,"text":"也就是23條我們的人權在憲法那一章非常清楚人權那一章從第7條到第24條到22條叫做人權的概括條款23條叫什麼叫限制條款你今天只要你限制人權你必須顛過來倒過去去看23條指的是什麼23條裡面包含了四大原則"},{"start":7205.717,"end":7213.429,"text":"第一個你要限制人權要法律保留所以我們剛剛講過了兩岸關係條例是憲法保留過來的他當然優先"},{"start":7216.649,"end":7235.879,"text":"還有必要性原則所以我們在過去涉及到分裂國土我們用的是必要性原則明顯要即刻的威脅而且在過去我剛才還有講過的道火跟視線裡面還談到了比例原則目的手段之間要有橫平性你不能過蕩"},{"start":7239.909,"end":7248.733,"text":"那這些我們都可以拋諸老後嗎所以限制人權任何一個國家的憲法它的存在是為了保障人權不是為了剝奪人權"},{"start":7251.147,"end":7269.962,"text":"所以在這原理原則都沒有充分突破的情況之下所出來的草案我覺得需要深思 需要面對我們司法上的良心那最後呢 我們這個很重要的一個觀念"},{"start":7271.613,"end":7285.65,"text":"剛才有談到很多譬如說錯假訊息這都是條文裡面的規範我就不一個一個去談了那錯假訊息當然我剛才談到一個我認為比較重要的概念你至少先繼續發然後才有刑法的問題"},{"start":7287.516,"end":7312.707,"text":"那至於退休金我們人事法規已經夠多了你知道全世界的民主國家在行政法裡面在大陸法系幾乎都會有總則我們總則到現在定不出來我們了不起定了一個程序法然後基準法有一部其他沒有我們的條款已經太多我們實務上在運作的時候我想我們在座很多政府官員"},{"start":7313.607,"end":7338.451,"text":"我們實務上在運作的時候碰到一個最頭痛的問題就是我們的權責機關常常出問題該誰管的就是誰管人事的就回到人事業管該誰管的就是誰管每一個法律裡面都要從別的法裡面撈一些過來那這個權責會完全混淆掉我相信人事方面的專業不是任何其他機關可以取代的"},{"start":7340.191,"end":7365.588,"text":"我們在很多法裡面 這個法抓一點 那個法抓一點然後拼湊出來一部法那你怎麼回歸到業管跟權責上的認定所以我想在陸委會的書面報告裡面只有提到2024起訴了64個人這個來源好像是根據國安局統計的不過很遺憾 只看到起訴 沒有看到結果"},{"start":7366.448,"end":7390.946,"text":"那當然你一定會跟我說結果還沒出來所以呢我們當然會長期追蹤大家一起努力好謝謝好謝謝謝謝蔣貴美教授寶貴的意見謝謝辛苦齁接下來從高雄上來我們廖一鳴教授謝謝請你發表意見我們一樣有計時但是請你暢所欲言謝謝"},{"start":7401.957,"end":7416.778,"text":"主席 各位委員以及在座各位行政機關代表各位學者專家以及媒體朋友大家早安我是高雄大學廖惠民今天很受邀出席國家安全法這個部分條文修正案的公定會我感到非常榮幸"},{"start":7417.884,"end":7436.604,"text":"那為了比較精準的嚴謹的表達我個人的意見呢我再次就我有一份我的這個發言的書面稿那我再次就用我已經早就寫好的這個發言稿啊那如果說在座各位有需要需要我的比較比較完整的發言稿的話我再提供"},{"start":7438.015,"end":7466.775,"text":"那首先我必須明確的表達對於政府維護國家安全防止境外勢力滲透及破壞的這個決心的理解與支持在當前複雜的地緣政治局勢與新型態的國家安全的威脅之下檢視並強化現行的法治工具確有其必要性與正當性國家安全是所有基本權利得以實現的基礎法治國原則並不要求國家在面對威脅的時候必須束手無策"},{"start":7467.918,"end":7482.918,"text":"然而正因為國家安全法規往往涉及到對人民權利最嚴厲的限制包括刑事處罰在立法上我們應該秉持憲法上的比例原則或法律明確性原則精確地劃定刑法的射程範圍"},{"start":7484.139,"end":7504.017,"text":"我們必須警惕過於寬泛或模糊的構成要件不僅可能無法精準地打擊真正的危害行為反而可能對民主社會賴於運作的言論自由學術自由及正當經濟活動造成不必要的寒蟬效應進而侵蝕我們欲守護的民主憲政的秩序"},{"start":7504.838,"end":7520.393,"text":"至於這樣如此的法理的立場,針對本次的修正草案,我請提出兩點核心意見與具體的修法建議供各位委員及行政機關來參考第一個是關於修正草案中有關於主觀意圖與客觀危機的辯析"},{"start":7523.936,"end":7549.629,"text":"我的第一點意見 具體在草案當中有部分或新增的條文裡面特別是關於有關於主觀惡意的證明責任與客觀危險的也就是足以生危害的鎮定標準在行政院的版本裡面的關鍵條文是第二條第二款跟第三款的足以生國家危害與對社會的危害"},{"start":7550.809,"end":7574.359,"text":"這樣的立法技術在現行刑法體系與大法官解釋的意識下凡涉及到限制言論自由或政治性生活的刑事規範其違憲審查的標準都極為嚴格草案中若採以足以生損害於國家安全或社會安定作為客觀構成要件的話在實務操作上將面臨以下的憲法疑慮一"},{"start":7576.124,"end":7592.991,"text":"足以生這三個字概括性危險與證明責任的轉嫁足以生某某某某是危險在法律上屬於具體危險犯的不太一樣他關注的是行為本身在客觀情勢之下發生危害結果的可能性或傾向"},{"start":7593.951,"end":7605.633,"text":"然而當此概念應用於規則言論或表意行為的時候若缺乏嚴格的主觀要件加以平衡的話將導致國家刑法權的過度前置與擴張"},{"start":7607.148,"end":7624.19,"text":"我的核心關鍵在於,若法律僅要求行為客觀上足以生危害,而不要求國家證明行為連主觀上具有故意危害國家安全的特定意圖的話,將導致司法審判僅憑言論內的客觀傾向及於論罪"},{"start":7625.331,"end":7647.891,"text":"這在實務上將產生有果溯因的危險執法機關可能僅需證明某段言論在當時的政治和社會氛圍下有可能被敵對勢力利用或有可能引發社會不安即可認定其足以生危害甚至如果說我們的國家元首或者是我們的大院委員在公開言論上表達"},{"start":7649.953,"end":7670.708,"text":"我個人相當強烈的反對與對岸簽訂任何的和平協議如果這樣言論被視為足以生對岸對台灣的敵意的話那這個時候足以生這樣的一種立法技術反而有可能造成國家安全相當大的破壞所以"},{"start":7673.476,"end":7700.848,"text":"意圖要件作為人權保障的防火牆在相較之下若法律堅持要求意圖危害國家安全的主觀要件的話則國家必須負擔完整的舉證責任檢察官不能夠僅憑言論的內容本身而必須提出客觀的證據例如通訊記錄資金往來秘密盟約具體行動計畫等外部事實來證明行為人在主觀上確實懷有顛覆政府"},{"start":7701.943,"end":7723.581,"text":"破壞憲政秩序或協助敵對勢力的特定意惡意這種高門檻的正義責任是法治國家保障公民免受國家機器自以干預的重要防火牆它確保公民可以進行尖銳的政治批判學術探討或發表非主流的觀點只要不具備真正的惡意與具體的破壞行為"},{"start":7724.562,"end":7748.629,"text":"因此我強烈的建議在涉及限制言論表義或政治活動的國安法條文中必須堅持主觀特定意圖與客觀具體危險並重的雙重構成要件絕不能為了降低偵查或起訴的難度而剝離行為人在主觀惡意意見或僅憑抽象的危險推論來替代客觀證據的證明"},{"start":7751.26,"end":7780.049,"text":"第二點是關於危害國家安全或社會安全這個用語的籠統性與法律明確性原則的意見我的第二點意見是針對草案中頻繁出現的概括性用語也就是危害國家安全或社會安定這樣的用語呢我認為此類用語是過於籠統反而違反了刑法上的法律明確性原則而違反了法律明確性原則的話最大的問題如果在國家安全的要求上面的話會反而打擊到了不該打擊的人"},{"start":7780.629,"end":7800.233,"text":"而放掉了該打擊的人那麼大法官釋字第342號解釋等多號解釋均明確指出法律構成要件的規定其術語在法律上的意義必須需人民可預見且為司法審判所可解釋及適用者特別是涉及刑事處罰的規範其明確性的要求更高"},{"start":7803.394,"end":7820.414,"text":"若法律條文模糊不清賦予執法機關過大的財產權的話將導致人民無從預見行為的法律後果從而產生自我審查扼殺民主社會的活力同時也極導致選擇性執法使法律淪為政治鬥爭的工具"},{"start":7821.701,"end":7839.37,"text":"那麼國家安全與社會安定的概念如果無限的擴張風險的話將使得國家安全這個概念所謂的口袋化現代綜合安全的概念已涵蓋經濟 科技 資訊 能源等諸多領域如果法律不加以精確界定的話"},{"start":7840.49,"end":7860.911,"text":"任何反對政府科技 揭露政府弊端或正當的跨國交流都可能被貼上危害國家安全的標籤同樣的 在一個比國家安全更具主觀色彩的這個與政治敏感性的概念是社會安定這個概念在民主社會當中 示威遊動 示威遊行"},{"start":7862.913,"end":7886.396,"text":"激烈的辯論、公民不服從等行為本質上都會在某種程度上擾動社會的表面安定但這卻是民主活力的體現若將社會安定作為限制言論的理由的話且缺乏客觀的標準即被用來打壓社會運動與前置異議歷史的經驗告訴我們以維穩的民意行壓制之時往往是威權復辟的開始"},{"start":7887.984,"end":7915.743,"text":"因此我強烈的呼籲修正案應該用更精確的文字來界定危害國家及社會安定的客觀情況或界定標準而非沿用概括性的語言具體而言我覺得大院委員應該捨棄危害國家安全或社會安定此類抽象的形容詞轉而採取類型化的方法具體的列舉所謂保護的重大法義及對應的危險行為的樣態"},{"start":7918.504,"end":7939.934,"text":"将国家安全具体化为防止泄露特定国防机密防止对关键基础设施的实体破坏防止外国势力及以非法手段干涉民主选举等第二对社会安全的限制应严格限于"},{"start":7941.074,"end":7961.571,"text":"使用暴力 煽动他人使用暴力或实施恐怖活动等具体且迫切的危险形状唯有透过具体化的行为样态与主观要件才能够符合法律明确性的原则的要求并在维护国家安全与保障人民基本权利之间寻求动态且符合宪法的精神平衡"},{"start":7963.188,"end":7977.373,"text":"最後國家安全的維護呢不應該以犧牲民主法治的核心價值為代價一部好的國家安全法應該是一把精準的留意刀清楚的精確的能夠切除真正危害國家的毒瘤而不是一把粗糙的大掃把將"},{"start":7978.453,"end":8006.87,"text":"公民的自由與權利一併掃除我今天提出的兩點意見也就是堅持主觀意圖的客觀證明以及精確的界定危害國家安全跟社會安全的客觀標準其目的正在確保國家安全法的修正能夠在憲法的軌道上行使真正成為守護台灣憲政秩序的堅實的盾牌而非侵蝕民主基石的底穴以上意見提供給各位參考謝謝各位"},{"start":8008.597,"end":8023.486,"text":"非常感謝廖教授寶貴的意見,一趟路這樣子,感謝你,謝謝最後我們請今天列席的與會機關代表做一個回應我們請警政署副署長李文章,謝謝"},{"start":8030.152,"end":8054.1,"text":"主席還有各位專家學者先進還有各部會的代表剛剛今天受邀的專家學者在有關這部法令修正的方面大概提出很多具體的意見跟看法我相信這些意見跟看法將來這部法令修正的時候我們都會一併的納入來考量只做以上簡單的回應 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我們先請秘書長 謝謝好 請劉秘書長是 委員長好 秘書長早那我想首先呢我看到就是秘書長在3月13號的時候國家人力資源論壇上面有提到有數據才有真相並強調我們的考試院這三年來呢都強調一個循證決策透過資料庫分析跟學界的合作來提升我們決策的品質這樣子的方向其實我非常給予肯定就是因為這段時間我去日本跟澳洲"},{"start":38.295,"end":52.292,"text":"那我跟他們在聊的時候呢他們的很多政策都有非常清楚的一個數據例如過去他們可能是蹲式廁所改成坐式廁所這裡面都有非常多的數據去支撐他們的政策要往哪個方向去前進那或者是像是澳洲的公共空間綠色"},{"start":54.773,"end":77.358,"text":"這個遊戲場啊綠色的公共空間等等的都有所以我這個方面我是非常的支持但是我想請教就是秘書長已經推動三年了那我們現在到底有哪一個政策或是重大的制度改革是依循數據分析而正式啟動的跟委員報告其實我們做這個政策是希望讓大家"},{"start":79.247,"end":100.502,"text":"對於事實的分析 尤其我們的同仁在做政策研議跟就業的時候也包含我們自己決策者 包含我們的考試委員 政府院長在做這個決策的時候能夠有更清楚的數據的分析所以您說具體哪一個政策是這樣我認為幾乎多數的政策都是如此因為我們現在這幾年來我們都會希望說在決策的時候大家就會問實際的狀況究竟如何"},{"start":104.545,"end":132.688,"text":"就像剛剛我們很多委員執行也講出了比如說到底會辭職的公務同仁都是誰如果透過數據分析我們看到說大部分是剛考進來的同仁比較多所以就不知道說那可能是限制轉調跟他們要為了改分發而重新考試類似像這樣的現況的了解我們都會希望有實際的數字佐證而不是都是很多人的個案的意見的彙整但是可能就沒有清楚的全貌主要是這樣"},{"start":133.427,"end":158.396,"text":"好那接下來我也想要請教一下我們的施能傑部長但是可能這個東西也會跟秘書長有關係就是說我們目前我看了一下我手邊的資料我們111年我們公教人員的生育率跟全國相比還領先0.29約1.33倍但是到113年的時候我們這個領先全國的幅度往下降了"},{"start":159.336,"end":185.515,"text":"也就是說過去我們可能認為公教人員比較願意升啊但是目前這個優勢已經不見了好 那我想了解就先請教秘書長就是我們有沒有任何的研究來了解說為什麼我們的公務員有這樣子的一個狀況秘書長或是部長可以回答這一點我跟委員報告 當然我以前在當人事長的時候曾經做真的是跑過資料run過整體上看起來是比較高但是如果公務員有很多類別對"},{"start":186.69,"end":215.595,"text":"差異很大譬如說區分成公務人員、警察、教師然後去讓他的生育率其實是差異很大我先講這個拒絕數字是這樣那整體這是一個整體的東西那老實說我們並沒有真正就這部分我看過很多比較細緻的那個分析研究報告為什麼公務人員生育率的影響他一些應該我們也沒有做過這方面的分析報告"},{"start":216.175,"end":241.726,"text":"好 了解那我認為我們應該要去了解這件事情因為我想大環境的少子化一定是有一些影響性然後整個價值觀的改變也多少都有影響但是這個領先幅度還是有點太低的我覺得這可以做一個研究來了解但是我想有件事情我們可以先來做就是說在去年的時候其實12月我們的政府已經宣布了這個利多的政策也就是說育嬰留庭會改成6加1個月雙親來共同育兒這件事情"},{"start":244.927,"end":258.781,"text":"那目前呢勞動部是大規模鋪天蓋地的讓很多的勞工朋友都會知道但是我詢問了一些公教人員他們其實並不知道這件事情所以我認為我們在宣傳的這件事情上面應該可以做改善部長你的看法是"},{"start":260.436,"end":286.301,"text":"我想謝謝委員我們會跟公務同仁談這個事情但是很實際的狀況是這樣這個應該要修法所以部裡面其實已經在啟動那個修法的那個程序中我想修法跟宣傳這兩件事情應該是可以同步作業啦那我想說那宣傳的部分是可不可以給我們一個簡單的說明你們預計如何擴大宣傳這件事情以及我們現在修法預計大概什麼時候可以完成呢"},{"start":287.801,"end":314.586,"text":"我們內部的修法大概應該是下個月應該就可以完成我們內部的程序那我們會報到考試院去那行政院那邊我的了解目前也還在他的法的修正還在勞動部沒錯 他們已經預告了啦那我們有同步啦 我們有同步好 有同步就好那就是請問大概什麼時候可以給我一個宣傳你們大概打算怎麼對內部的公務人員做宣傳是不是可以兩個禮拜給我一個說明好不好好 就是"},{"start":315.606,"end":323.951,"text":"宣傳的方式剛好嘛因為你四月要送出嘛我們四月的時候同步作業我們努力來看看怎麼樣做這一部分的事情好那再來就下一個問題還是彈性工時啦因為其實我之前也跟部長來請教過了部長可以先請回了謝謝"},{"start":331.158,"end":351.994,"text":"那有關於彈性的工時的部分呢之前其實是有看到說在107年9月3號的時候呢的確有發文通靈各機關必須遵守性工法的一個相關規範那這部分我也是給予肯定但是我也問了一些有育兒的公務人員他們遇到一個食物的狀況就是說當他需要可能提早一個小時"},{"start":353.155,"end":369.805,"text":"可能不主張減少一小時只是希望可以提早上班就是這個彈性工時的部分讓他可以早點去接小孩但是呢還是會遇到這些機關呢可能在人事單位這邊就陣亡了那有些單位可能就非常的支持"},{"start":370.245,"end":386.183,"text":"所以我覺得這個就存在了一個差異那當然我也理解每個工作每個部會可能都會有不同的狀況因為勞動部這邊也有類似的問題可是勞動部還是想辦法怎麼樣來鼓勵我們的企業來做這件事情所以我也是在想說"},{"start":387.304,"end":403.416,"text":"部長是人事專家啦在這個部分上面我們是不是也可以提出更好的鼓勵方案因為像是前陣子台北市蔣萬安市長有提出可以讓家長提早一小時下班可是這件事情並不適用公務人員所以呢不曉得說部長對這件事情的一個看法是什麼"},{"start":404.758,"end":419.804,"text":"我是蠻覺得彈性工齒是可以創造友善的工作環境一個很好的一個方法布裡面就我們實施的彈性工齒就非常Range非常非常大但是各機關真的差異我完全了解但是我們的法規沒有問題"},{"start":420.764,"end":437.61,"text":"對沒錯 絕對可以做那事實上就是機關要不要做機關怎麼做那這個部分以台灣的分工來講我會跟主要都是在人事總署在比較他比較負責就是說去做宣導去做一些指引他那邊會比我們這邊來的更有效這部分我來跟那個"},{"start":441.151,"end":459.645,"text":"總署的同仁呢在談談說有什麼方式也可以跟機關講因為機關有疑慮啦主要是機關有疑慮用人機關疑慮怎麼樣說怎麼樣做法也許可以減少他們的疑慮那大家鼓勵來做這次COVID-19的時候就要努力來做但是19完以後就大家要回復比較多回復原來的狀況"},{"start":460.265,"end":480.072,"text":"所以我想這部分還是希望積極的來鼓勵啦因為我這次去澳洲我也醒悟了他們的公務體系啦那他們公務體系也提出了非常多不同的這種彈性工作或是遠距工作或各種的方式來去提供他們的公務人員可以怎麼樣工作跟家庭兼顧所以這個部分我想也是需要部長一起來努力那我也希望就是說因為"},{"start":480.592,"end":497.709,"text":"其實秘書署長剛剛就像我們剛剛一直在講的就是有數據才有真相所以我也希望說我們提供的一些講注方案也是可以延續我們這個尋證決策的一個概念來繼續執行那這個部分的話可能後續我也會再跟部長約時間來討論好謝謝謝謝部長那接下來抱歉還有一題考機法考機法"},{"start":504.975,"end":522.669,"text":"部長又請你回來了就是說今年在一月份的時候有民眾在公共政策的網路參與平台有提到一個檢討公務人員考機法那其實今天有非常多的委員都討論到了這一點因為這件事情其實在基層公務人員的反應是非常非常的應該說表達意見非常踴躍啦在兩個禮拜就達成了連署的門檻"},{"start":525.151,"end":548.991,"text":"那我自己在上網看的時候呢其實大家對於幾個議題非常有意見第一個就是考機的比例僵化難以反應實際的工作表現那甚至你也可以看到上面我截圖的這些留言喔大家一直其實都會提到輪流輪到一等這樣子那我剛剛也有聽到就是說部長的一些回應就是說未來我們不會再有甲乙丙丁制"},{"start":549.671,"end":558.543,"text":"然後我們可能會有一個比較頂尖的這個拔尖的概念那我想可能會是一個比較像是統計學的左偽分布的一個概念那"},{"start":560.697,"end":589.236,"text":"目前呢 我知道我們已經有一些就是篩選出什麼模範公務人員啊但是這個是非常非常頂尖我們體制上的確是有的但是我們是不是有可能可以把它分佈在一個比較是像這樣子的一個像我圖表上面這樣子的一個建議就是不要到那種 就是在秤值之間跟非常頂尖之間有一個頂尖的因為這樣才有更多的人可以被選到這個位置部長您的看法是"},{"start":590.774,"end":593.815,"text":"其實我們的概念會比較像這一張圖啦但是不會這麼複雜啦跟你們的圖是比較像是這一張圖嗎"},{"start":600.443,"end":625.998,"text":"比較像是這一我不會設定比例好的應該我要講我不設定比例但是會比較像是以我對公務實際的了解絕大部分的同仁都是稱職的公務同仁他們就是被教辦工作努力工作也把該做的事情做好那我們就認為他就是一個很稱職的公務人但是確實有些很少數的同仁真的表現更好那我們就會放到那個就是我們要"},{"start":626.858,"end":653.395,"text":"要著重的是這邊如果同仁真的不符合我們法律有規定一些我們未來有規定會說哪些事項哪些新聞你不可以有工作新聞如果你真的有這個東西你會放在就是未打良好我想我這張圖的概念其實是說因為我們可能大部分我也相信大部分的公務人員都是非常的認真那現在我們的體制上面如果你只有非常優秀的那種模範的機制的話就會讓很多的人其實他的表現"},{"start":654.255,"end":679.578,"text":"其實可能已經超越頂尖了已經超越秤值了可是他沒有辦法到這種拔尖的狀態的時候這是兩個不同的概念我們那個模範公務人員跟工作考機是不一樣的沒錯沒錯就是希望說我們是可以有一個我們這兩個是區隔的對對對就是區隔的部分那再來就是說我想針對於一些待觀察或是您剛剛講說比較有狀況的一些公務人員的話比較需要一些輔導的話我們是不是可以有具體的輔導或是考核的機制來幫助他們前進呢"},{"start":681.452,"end":698.788,"text":"我們希望未來如果任何一個機關要打同仁落入到這個未打良好這個category他平常就要有一些很好的這個譬如像說紀錄觀察甚至覺得他不好其中就要給他有一些比較改善的一個機會那我想是一定會有這個機制"},{"start":700.205,"end":717.279,"text":"那我想在問這個問題的同時我也想請教因為公務人員考積法我知道已經在討論當中那有沒有可能在這個會期就送到立法院來進行審查我們會以這個為努力的目標好那最後一題那我們再請秘書長抱歉謝謝部長"},{"start":722.24,"end":736.708,"text":"那就是說牧師長想請教一下因為在2025年的時候我們完成了公務人員保障法的修法正式將公務人員的職場霸凌處理機制納入母法那後續呢保訓會會依據母法修訂公務人員的執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法"},{"start":738.169,"end":765.341,"text":"那但是呢我們在看到職安法或者性公法相比的時候我們目前公務體系的相關保護措施還是放在執法的一個層級那目前我們其實也缺乏了一個明確的法律規範我們只有寫到具體有效措施跟其他的法規都明確定義處理過程的權利義務其實是有差別的那如果我們今天從法制的角度來看根據中央標準"},{"start":766.902,"end":788.56,"text":"中央法規標準法的第五條人民的權利義務事項都應該以法律來定之所以說當公務機關是在職場霸凌中應該要採取哪些的保護措施或是相關權利義務因為牽扯到當事人的權利跟義務所以應該要採取法律所謂的利事原則才對所以我在想我們是不是有可能來在這個"},{"start":790.862,"end":807.822,"text":"在這個涉及人身安全的職場霸凌案件之中把機關應採取之保護措施以法律明確列舉來避免各機關認定不一甚至消極處理的一個問題我們是不是有可能來做這樣子的研議呢"},{"start":812.644,"end":823.048,"text":"我們保障法跟安慰辦法的這個架構如果你從法律層次來看好像跟治安法的結構不一樣不過我想"},{"start":823.968,"end":846.16,"text":"即便它部分是在比如說安慰辦法裡面我想對各機關的指引跟拘束的效果還是一樣強因為最主要公部門的同仁大家都會依照規定比較不會有違法的狀況那規範的細節上面如果有沒有不明確這個部分我想請主委這邊來幫忙說明好 謝謝"},{"start":849.52,"end":874.262,"text":"跟委員報告就是您剛提到那個問題那因為這個保障法19條它其實是在民國92年的時候新增的所以呢對於這個安慰辦法的這個授權法源在那邊那因為它這個涉及到有關於法律的一個執行的細節或是執行面相關的部分就授權放在這個安慰辦法但是委員您剛非常關切的"},{"start":875.083,"end":901.463,"text":"有關於這個公務人員的權利義務的這個部分包含這個職場霸凌的定義然後呢它的一個具體措施具體採取這是有關於那個採取或者是它的一個行政罰款相關的這個法律違反效果等等這些您最關心的議題其實它都是放在保障法裡面那這是跟委員檢要報告這樣那第二個部分就是涉及到就是說"},{"start":902.203,"end":921.939,"text":"陳如我們剛剛秘書長所講您關心的這些部分在現在一個就是在保障法跟安慰辦法裡面它其實是搭配得非常好那目前我們有去蒐集這個各機關還有這個相關的申訴人他們的就一些看法就是那目前都沒有人反映說"},{"start":923.533,"end":952.674,"text":"需要再把它放到法律裡面因為目前整個保障法已經是一百零四條了所以它已經很大但是呢委員你所提的這個關切的部分我們在這個未來還有現在我們也會持續的繼續去滾動如果有必要把它放到這個法律裡面我們也會這個去進行這樣子的一個研議那我想就是我還是希望可以去研議一下那是不是三個月之後給我一個研議的報告好不好"},{"start":953.114,"end":954.957,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167702","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167702","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59e90b03806554e1795fca415873cf37f15e5c86e8186f6ced8a94a20e7e7dac435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:28:14 - 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所以它如果說還是有這個需要配合政策的話 我想這個中油它的虧損還是會繼續增加那你們應該有個預算嘛 不是說這個對 所以我們現在就是中油它也提出說要增資3500億嘛那也報到院裡面那院裡面現在也正在審議當中就是我們希望從中油的財務結構"},{"start":149.127,"end":172.243,"text":"好 那兩個部分啦 一個就是說有沒有算就是我要問就是說兩個禮拜虧了33億人那如果暫時延長一個月到兩個月的話中一個會虧損多少 有沒有這個數字因為國際油價是變動的 它會跟著這個當然也不是每天變動 你要抓一個Range出來啊其實像今天油價又往上了所以它的一個就是那個1000億會不會1000億可能"},{"start":176.548,"end":205.472,"text":"應該不會啦,如果這個戰事我想也應該不會...那一千億是我喊的啦,你們應該有一個估計的數字啦我是說兩週33億啊是,這個可能我們回去要再估算幾種情境之下對啊,你們要去估算那個情境啊兩週33億,然後一個月多少,50億還是100億我們再估算一下再看因為你們有提出這一個3500億的政治計畫嘛對不對那是送到,要不要送到立法院來"},{"start":206.823,"end":226.91,"text":"要那慘了啊台電那個債業黨也不讓你們過啊雷千億就把你們刪掉了對不對那中友這個3500億送到立法院來不過這個是因為要穩定物價我想委員台電也是穩定物價啊 債業黨有沒有同意我們都支持啊 債業黨有沒有同意沒有嘛 3500億你覺得債業黨會讓你過嗎"},{"start":229.409,"end":257.943,"text":"我們還是請委員多支持啊對啊你要請在野黨委員多支持我們當然都支持啊那你有沒有看到一個新聞昨天國來辦講他說啊統一後兩岸互聯互通滿格電力人家每一戰爭的時候都要吃台灣豆腐你有沒有注意到這一則新聞有是對那你作為一個經濟部的次長怎麼去反映這件事情回應這件事情"},{"start":258.465,"end":283.545,"text":"當然這個是不可能的這個是屬於認知作戰的一部分我覺得我們台灣自己能源的部分我們已經也做足了準備我們有安全存量而且我們也有一些因應的做法尤其這段期間我們中油對一些天然氣或能源的調度其實都可以維持到比方說現在是四月底以前"},{"start":284.466,"end":303.066,"text":"那五月的部分我們現在也正在積極在調裝當中所以這個部分我想我們這個能源的部分我們一定會幫大家這個確保能源的供應是無虞的市長你講的認知作戰連這個東西都要認知作戰那請教一下那在每一戰爭持續期間的話那油價持續會動漲嗎"},{"start":307.709,"end":327.86,"text":"你說動漲嗎?當然我們有一個機制我們有雅齡最低價還有專案平穩的機制我知道所以在這兩個機制之下,我想我們一定會把油價控制好不會讓我們CPI超過2%我們的目標就是對啦,我意思是說那是不是有機會再維持動漲"},{"start":334.433,"end":353.964,"text":"當然這個就會看到整個國際情勢的一個所以我是說每一天戰爭如果持續啦對 我們還是希望說這個油價還會一定參席會都延期了嘛那至少這一個月大概我認為戰爭可能還會再持續啦所以這個月或是說不要講到下個月下個禮拜是不是就"},{"start":355.064,"end":380.234,"text":"還是有機會動長跟委員報告就因為我剛講到講到就是說這個油價的決定我們有兩個機制嘛一個是啞鈴最低價好那電價勒那電價的話電價是下個月會開會嗎3月有一個審議委員會那我想審議委員會討論的時候我們會把相關的資訊都會提供給審議委員來做參考當然大家也是希望電價也要能夠穩定啦就不要"},{"start":380.794,"end":400.942,"text":"不要漲但是這個資訊當然我們也會傳達因為是戰爭的關係我們還是希望能夠維持油電都能夠維持動漲這樣才不會影響到我們的民生經濟影響到我們一般這些小老百姓不管你是做什麼行業可能因此都會受到影響好不好把我們這個訊息傳遞出去好 謝謝市長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"167701","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167701","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e597b99be8b0c18536d31a176eedb5d66a35e5c86e8186f6ced903534be09e65b475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"10:18:31 - 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其實我們很多的促銷活動 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦 或是這個芭芭啦 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦 或是這個芭芭啦 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦 或是這個芭芭啦 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦 或是這個芭芭啦 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦 或是這個芭芭啦 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦 或是這個芭芭啦 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦 或是這個芭芭啦 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦"},{"start":186.337,"end":195.888,"text":"南韓最近遇到電子入境卡的事看外交部也有一些反應現在又傳出包括丹麥那這個"},{"start":199.71,"end":220.588,"text":"不管你們要怎麼做,或者是說設計系統的人在用的時候,那個國民、國家的名字有一點要把我們矮化,那外交部也做了一些相對應的措施那這當然軟硬兼施嘛,也不能說直接要怎樣現在進度怎麼樣,跟國人講一下"},{"start":225.422,"end":241.021,"text":"當然最近因為各國電子化政府因為有些不同的系統所以比如說可能簽證是一個然後另外就是戶政或其他的相關的部會那它現在電子化之後就產生了"},{"start":242.703,"end":257.222,"text":"就是要一致啦 它內部這個時候我們都要去交涉也有一些國家發現因為這個樣子沒有辦法允許我們用原來的但是我們除了表示我們的立場以外繼續積極交涉因此而改變的國家也很多"},{"start":258.303,"end":280.469,"text":"但是你剛剛提到的所謂南韓政府我們是有跟他交涉因為他去年二月開始就是用電子路徑卡所以我們就必須要在這個時候跟他很交涉就是反映我們的立場以外我想他們已經有聽到了那對等跟尊嚴我們要有一些作為比如你剛剛提到丹麥"},{"start":281.71,"end":296.805,"text":"因為是兩年前突然間就是他們的這個外交部長就是一個這樣的一個改變造成了我們被矮化嘛那我們當然就交涉那也透過G7國家去溝通那我們也相對的對等"},{"start":297.927,"end":317.444,"text":"我們就降低他在台灣的外交的特權南非也是這樣子處理我覺得外交就是秉持的這個國家的主權跟國民的尊嚴這樣子來做對外事務的交涉第三個今天看這個報告裡頭啊一期都沒寫到卓院長去日本說私人行程啊對私人行程所以你們都不要寫"},{"start":325.622,"end":350.841,"text":"我是放在那個台日關係友好交流 但也包括這一項啊藍字來的對啊因為副總統 蕭副總統去的你們有特別寫這樣就叫你有關的 叫外交部有關的蕭副總統那一攤就跟外交部有關係都有關係啊都有關係 好 那因為喔既然私人行程蕭副總統去外交部來的 看起來也怪怪的"},{"start":351.77,"end":367.278,"text":"所以很好 我很怕你把卓院長私人行程 私人行程可以寫在臉上 私人行程你也要寫進去他是有一些外交上的效果啦 這個是必須要很清楚的肯定"},{"start":369.693,"end":379.576,"text":"對 運動外交也是我們很重要的一部分最後跟你談一下這個中東這一次戰爭的事情我們有一些旅行團在那裡的狀況當然網絡上面就會出現說有一些事情"},{"start":388.376,"end":395.8,"text":"像剛才馬文清委員講的,要去找中國的,可以回來中國一直在載人,我們都沒在載人,這次大戰,中華民國在幹什麼,外交部在幹什麼旅行團去到中東,他可能是"},{"start":410.14,"end":424.047,"text":"過境,可能是轉機,有可能是去那裡工作,有些人是要回台灣了,有些人是剛出發就類似上次去阿布達比有沒有,劉建國委員是不是,你們一團在分臨的阿布達比去轉機,還有一個人他的名怎麼叫,劉建國從頭到尾"},{"start":433.752,"end":450.829,"text":"聽說都打電話給你,叫你外交部到什麼地方那時候的那些機制啊,我相信當時在阿布達比那裡的外交我們的同仁也都很積極在處理這些事情這一次,中東站的部門,外交部叫這個觀光署啊"},{"start":451.63,"end":468.829,"text":"因為這有時候是旅行團,旅行團你現在要改班機叫他換地方坐,走陸路到別的國家離開那個地方跑,要去歐洲玩這牽扯到觀光署,牽扯到外交部,各式各樣的狀況都有你要不要跟大家講一下,接下來這個醫療要不要改進,我看你們有一個處長代表"},{"start":471.152,"end":471.753,"text":"我跟委員報告,外交部就很像台灣的阿信"},{"start":484.247,"end":506.663,"text":"我們在外館,111個外館,很多外館沒有外交特權但我們拚死拚活,就是要服務國人但是剛剛講,有一些旅行社的團,他要玩完才要回來所以我們有將近兩個禮拜都是後續後面轉機的團,不是原來在當地的啊因為他會給他出門而已"},{"start":508.104,"end":514.869,"text":"要去杜拜轉機,我回到,他可能九十幾萬,要去澳洲,九十幾萬,你說啊嘛,你回去我九十幾萬要回去,誰要賠我,理行社說我沒辦法賠你,現在也沒辦法賠你,不然你大飯店又大兩天,越大就越緊張,可能你大飯店旁邊,附近一棟大樓都崩潰,所以"},{"start":529.639,"end":540.567,"text":"有可能這個觀光署在這個過程當中 包括貧寶協會啊這要當成一個規定當中 叫外交部到底你們的合作關係什麼因為國人 包括他們的家人一齣都會有煩惱嘛 他們說要團結啊啊我們中華民國外交部納都沒在處理 啊他們團的人可能裡面一團二十個有夠多的說我們要回去 我們不要去玩了"},{"start":553.336,"end":555.34,"text":"有五個會說我們還要繼續送,有十個會說我們還要再等一會這個時候腳色是什麼?這齁,就是說酒瓦新啦"},{"start":564.226,"end":583.552,"text":"就是人家找外館員不會分你哪個部會啦可是行政院的機制很重要比如說你剛講的觀光署嘛 你是掌握旅行社像我有當過交通部長啊 你跟旅行社協調出一個好的方法旅行社和華益港灣喔 你很好做欸我們這邊是在地 有些都入籍了"},{"start":585.038,"end":604.625,"text":"比如說我們在這個阿聯酋我們在杜拜結果他是阿布達比這邊轉機我們的代表齁 欸 光是冒著槍林彈雨啊還被車騎到救人上次講那個雲林就是這個例子啊所以我是覺得大家去了解之後我們這個在中東的處境是特別困難"},{"start":605.365,"end":625.078,"text":"所以當然我是說政府是一體的我們就是總和外交吧所以這個有些值得我們可以再檢視怎麼去經濟像以色列就做得很好因為以色列面對戰爭不是今天我們那個大使他是陪著我們的國人要撤離的是躲飛彈"},{"start":629.262,"end":639.65,"text":"然後還在高下橋下面,那個影片看起來你會不會覺得很心酸的呢?現在馬文經委說了一個很好說的,你要繼續推動,你還做過交通部長,就是說我們這旅行團出去的時候,到底我現在想說,現在全世界,到底現在多少台灣旅行團,一國五國,我們的觀光署現在也不知道,我可以這樣說嗎?"},{"start":652.074,"end":660.163,"text":"有幾團有幾個人啦現在此時此刻在外面的旅行團因為我們沒有登錄現在還有人要去杜拜"},{"start":662.493,"end":688.185,"text":"這幾天旅行團有些還要出去啊因為我看你們外交部的旅遊局勢政府是盡力啦 但是也是有限的這個部分可能 因為我們現在討論中東局勢國人在問說我們現在到底有多少旅行團在那裡嘛外交部恐怕又要去問我想你可能要問旅行全聯會 阿不然連貧寶協會"},{"start":690.186,"end":690.566,"text":"我覺得觀光署可能也不知道"},{"start":720.606,"end":726.85,"text":"不分國家啦 種族啦 大家就一起來這個人道救援像我們講到所謂的徹橋或護橋"},{"start":730.053,"end":751.932,"text":"國際也很關心比如台海的局勢這個就是我們共同的目標吧也就是說我們政府都要照顧人民所以這個不分彼此所以反而是我們外交很重要的一個可以說撤僑跟護僑的外交這個我們當然是會好好去精進不斷地去檢討所以現在大家要離開要有日本的危機在日本危機在台灣在台灣嘛要有中國就在中國嘛這外交部也要去董事"},{"start":758.737,"end":785.717,"text":"因為他的選擇,對他最好,他才知道嘛一台中國飛機你不可以借,沒有啦,沒有這個東西嘛就是說,包機啊,飛機啊,反正可以離開那個區域基本上呢,國人安全是最優先嘛所以喔,因為這個,你那個什麼撤離多少人,那些人數每天在統計我跟那個時間點,裡面大概慢了一兩天"},{"start":786.755,"end":801.748,"text":"就是人家在忙的時候 你們才開始慢慢出現 包括電話類似這樣的東西可能一開始國人第一天第二天就開始緊張的時候外交部以後要主動我們會檢討這次整個處理 現在戰爭還在發生中我為了主持視訊會議 我要求往前去檢討之後 趕快"},{"start":809.634,"end":818.657,"text":"得出改進的措施啊團在那裡的人 我知道沒有那個資訊歐洲團 非洲團 中東團 台灣人出國的實力很強可能旅行團的家人是台灣嘛 你這訊息如果發出去可能這家人就會傳去外交部 你現在回到那裡有什麼困難 卡住一個電話"},{"start":833.522,"end":841.772,"text":"這樣就會可能主動然後提早看到就做這個發布讓這個訊息更完整啦好 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我們請全序部施部長好 請施部長秘書長 我主要是要針對這個相關考機法我在請教這個施部長那如果有其他有關政策部分秘書長如果要補充就請秘書長可以上台來做政策上面的這個整理政策的表述那這個施部長我想這個剛才前面也有委員有詢問到有關於我們這個公務人員的考機制度的相關問題"},{"start":42.079,"end":57.572,"text":"那我看你們這個業務報告,你們今天業務報告裡面有關今年工作重點及立法計畫第四點裡面就列入說你們要精進考機法制,建構完善的考機制度這是你們的工作重點,今年度的工作重點"},{"start":58.649,"end":79.021,"text":"那這個事實上我個人在這個我們在這個公共政策網路參與平台所謂中台獎裡面事實上也是有這樣子有關於這個考機法的這個相關提案這個部分市部長你有了解嗎我理解我知道這個網路我們公共政策網路平台也就是我們考機法的這個修改的部分事實上在這個"},{"start":83.063,"end":87.864,"text":"社會上面也是很重視這個議題而且已經討論多時了有各種不一樣的意見我在天下雜誌上面看到我們師部長關於烤雞法的發言基本上講說現行的烤雞法已經沒有獎勵效果了"},{"start":102.208,"end":123.501,"text":"這是用引號,這是事務長講的啦現行的考記法已經沒有獎勵的效果那他的標題,這個文章的標題就是說有做事沒做事,薪水都一樣就因為這些原因,所以我今天大概就針對考記法的部分,我會來跟事務長討論接下來在我們業務報告,一樣在我們業務報告裡面有關於近期已執行的業務情形"},{"start":124.261,"end":145.36,"text":"裡面你們提了兩點第一點是通盤檢討修正公務員考積法剛才討論的這個部分那第二點是檢討研修公務員任用法所以今天大概就考積法跟任用法這兩個部分來請教那這個其實公務員考積法它裡面的這些相關的問題很多是"},{"start":147.659,"end":170.828,"text":"同樣兩個價值的橫平啦就是這個公務體認用公平但是他同時他又要能夠這個這個這個激勵績效這樣子兩個價值之間的橫平會造這個橫平所以他在從過去一直到現在公務員考積法他一直是大法官會議解釋的常客就是說可以說大法官會議解釋裡面最多的就是公務員考積法"},{"start":171.848,"end":191.784,"text":"從歷年來大法官會議解釋有八次大法官會議解釋針對我們這個公務員考機法那在憲法法庭還有一次憲法判決加起來其實九次的這個判決那事實上在這個從民國75年到114年我們也提過五次修法整個這個公務員考機法有五次修法"},{"start":192.825,"end":208.759,"text":"那這整個這種體系我想從過去到現在其實市部長我想給你相當的肯定啦因為你大概非常我看你非常用心的是真的真的把它當作一個志業啦要改革這公務人員考機制度我看你是真的很用心的在在談但這個問題"},{"start":211.653,"end":240.815,"text":"非常很重要而且你很用心但是他偏偏他就是在在他的改革是不容易的不容易的那所以我大概就是從這個從過去這個公務人員考機考機法的修法經驗過去說五次提我們五次提到立法院來修法但是都後來都沒有修成了都沒有修成了因為這個都都每次一到這個什麼考機比例到比例要不要要不要維持到這些爭議這個就大家就這個共識就很低了所以每一次都沒有修法修成了那"},{"start":241.636,"end":268.337,"text":"我們大概在整個我們把它提到這個既然你們又把它列為今年度的重要工作事項那也是你們的重要工作成果所以我們就重點就是說我們這個公務員考機法修法到底有哪幾個重點我這裡是提出這個三個大變相第一個就是我剛剛提的這個等地的比例就是到甲等有沒有要設置比例多少比例甲等地的比例這是第一個面向第二面向就是你在打考機的你那個區別"},{"start":270.325,"end":283.676,"text":"他到底具不具區別性的這個平良的機制到底要建立這是過去一直詬病的就是我們這個到底為什麼我甲等為什麼我乙等這個平良的這個機制這個東西這個平良性這個是第二個面向"},{"start":285.08,"end":305.572,"text":"那第三個面向就是大概就是這個一般基層公務員比較關心的就是那你主管打烤雞你要不要負責就是你這個主管的平和責任我做平和這個責任大概這三個面向是我們如果我們要做烤雞法的改革我想這三個是重要的面向所以一個一個面向來跟這個部長討論你們在全區部我看在這個"},{"start":309.909,"end":329.51,"text":"一個禮拜前你們全區部有講說你們這個其實你們過去到現在你們已經經過這個向考試院進行了五次的專案說明進行五次的專案說明而且你們在這個你們報告裡面也提到從114年6月到8月召開三次的專案會議這個專案說明會議而且"},{"start":332.498,"end":359.551,"text":"達成一定的共識之後在十月跟十一月又召開兩次總共召開五次的專案說明會議嘛對不對那有關於這個我現在要請問部長就是說有關這個長期大家對於這個比例配合的這個僵化這部分我們什麼樣的改革方向我想我用更整體來跟委員報告可能因為我們的方向會跟現在不一樣所以不能用現在甲乙丙這種概念來看我們未來的方向簡單講"},{"start":361.192,"end":370.051,"text":"我長期在政府部門服務那我自己是學人資的那我還是要坦白講人資的那一套理論"},{"start":371.394,"end":394.921,"text":"或技術放在政府部門來必須要做修正要不然會沒有辦法可行性在政府部門如果沒有辦法可行性就是為什麼以前送的五次烤雞法的方式通通沒有下文對 沒有下文就是因為它會有可行性的問題但是我們希望又可行又要兼顧一些也不要說完全沒有效果所以我們大的方向是這樣子"},{"start":395.741,"end":420.837,"text":"我們不會再有夾魚餅那個概念我們會重新用另外簡化的等次我不贊成如果我們現在連夾魚都很難區別的如果你再把顆粒再拉高老實說那爭論會更大所以我們的方式是簡化方式簡單講我們大概會當烤雞簡單講未來機關要達到最重要兩件事情"},{"start":422.011,"end":444.587,"text":"如果我們會設定條件那個真的是做不好的符合什麼條件你就是未打良好那只要你沒有未打良好基本上就是就是非常好 良好那在良好上面如果我們再有一個條件如果你真的符合更好 優等 特優我們就這樣子而已那所以但是從"},{"start":446.528,"end":455.049,"text":"從理論的實務或者人質的實務不可能特優惹人會比那所謂良好跟對好這是我們要改變嘛那所謂良好跟不良"},{"start":456.444,"end":480.343,"text":"這兩個中有比例我們不會設定比例這是重點我們絕對不會設定比例不設定比例 這個比例才是重點何時根據法定的標準不管它叫做假等 叫做疑等還是它叫做良好 叫做優良都是到底要不要設定比例這個問題我們不會去設定所謂叫未達良好了這個比例不會 因為我們就根據你符合這個條項 機關就要何時考基本上我們的整個修法方向是要把過去的這個比例"},{"start":481.664,"end":503.016,"text":"這個比例配額的僵化要把它廢除掉這是第一個方向這是第一個面向第二個面向有關於評量方式過去這個評量方式大家一直在講說不過如果你簡化之後這個評量方式就比較容易了我們就是有兩個主要的標準一個是如果未達良好必須要什麼標準未達良好基本上要有一些具體的事證如果你要更好你就要有什麼標準我們主要是用這兩個概念"},{"start":504.537,"end":523.107,"text":"接下來就是第三個面向就是我們所提到的主管平和的責任這個有我們剛剛講在這撞開講這個網路政策平台上面大家提到說你要付理由啦要付理由所以你剛剛講說如果我們未來改成說良好跟未達良好那未達良好部分你一定要"},{"start":523.447,"end":539.613,"text":"一定要附相關的書面理由跟說明而且我們會認為如果你年終要打人家未了良好在平常的考核裡面就一定要先示警平常要示警就是平常考核的時候如果你覺得他真的不好"},{"start":540.433,"end":568.406,"text":"未達人你一定要在 你在真正最後做考機之前而且要跟他溝通因為我們不希望 老實說政府部門大家辛辛苦苦考進來我們不希望呢好像是隨便就fire一個同仁這也不是好事情啦所以過程要給他這個知道說他做得好不好好 這樣子的修法方向我個人是非常支持而且我認為說這樣子事實上可以解決一下我剛剛講這整個三大面向的這些問題啦 這個可以一併解決那我們希望說 那時程呢你們計畫什麼時候"},{"start":570.708,"end":588.303,"text":"應該這樣講我們大概我剛剛有報告我預計在這個月會正式進入跟各機關發出正式的這個意見徵詢但是我們會請各機關也要把這個意見那你們預計在什麼時候完成如果順利的話我想我希望在下個月如果順利啦"},{"start":588.723,"end":607.869,"text":"大家同意我們這個做法的話我不希望說大家有意見我還往考試院送老實說也沒有意義啦所以我希望在這樣一個過程裡面大概能夠順利到下個月四月到五月之中間我能夠順利把這個法案草案送到考試院因為還是要經過考試院就是希望說四月五月能夠送到考試院"},{"start":609.189,"end":626.479,"text":"這樣子就時程也很具體了那一個小問題就是過去在修法的時候常常說在打烤機的時候你們這個修法的時程跟這個打烤機的時間重疊人事行政局就說你這樣子我根本我就這個部分要注意一下謝謝委員的提醒這個部分烤機法到這裡"},{"start":630.439,"end":652.964,"text":"關於公務人員任用法的部分,我這邊給你顯示一個比例我看這近六年公務人員辭職的人數看比例,其實辭職率看起來提升沒有很多,從0.8%提升到1.4%比例看起來沒有很高但其實實際上的辭職人數是攀升從1157個人到將近2000人"},{"start":658.085,"end":677.299,"text":"這個其實攀升的比例那這樣子的你們是怎麼看待你們覺得這個是人力結構的流失還是你們覺得這個影響有限我做一個部長我長期觀察這個數字來講事實上人數在增加沒有錯但是它佔整個公務人員比例真的是很低"},{"start":678.683,"end":696.235,"text":"這剛我講的比例1.4而已那我再講一個數字我們在很多辭職的同仁裡面大部分都是新進的沒幾年的同仁那他後來又重新考試回來快有兩成左右已經考回來我接下來就是要講這個所以我的意思在講是所以問題一定有問題"},{"start":698.596,"end":718.213,"text":"為什麼我考上了我要辭掉然後在兩年內我再去拚另外一個考試再考進來因為我們是分發考試我們是分發考試他可能分到了機關他覺得而且不得轉任不得轉任對不對因為我們現在有高普考三年地特有六年"},{"start":718.974,"end":736.575,"text":"那我跟委員報告,這個一定是用人機關很複雜議題的政策啦,算在法律裡面這近六年來齁,這個辭職的公務員,剛剛你講有兩層會在任公職這兩人裡面有七成五次,第二次在考試考進來的再重新再考試的齁所以這個,我們"},{"start":738.897,"end":757.145,"text":"對於這個高考的這些綁約地特這樣子的這些問題我們有沒有想要做改變或檢討我跟委員報告我們現在當然已經有一個室友是說如果他有育三歲以下的一個小孩子可以在一定條件裡面他可以轉啦那我們一方面也在檢討這個可能要請秘書長我們這個"},{"start":760.425,"end":782.619,"text":"這個其實不得轉調的這些相關的法條依據是在公務人員考試法裡面那這個部分我們是不是能夠整體做結構性的調整要不然這實在是我們一說出來就很荒謬這麼多人大家考上了我還辭掉辭掉再去重新考再考回來如果這掉了我還是不高興那我再辭我再考"},{"start":783.776,"end":805.964,"text":"我瞭解委員講這個問題這個是我們國家的特殊結構下的特殊的副作用因為我們是統一考試統一分發用人機關完全不能選擇他就等著我們分發一個人給他但是分發的這個權利是在於考生依照分數去填寫他的志願但他填寫志願的時候我簡單講他最後填了一個譬如說在東部"},{"start":806.764,"end":834.6,"text":"他並不是真的想去東部服務但他只是想要拿到這個分發以後完成訓練使得他可以得到公務員資格那所以 拿到公務員資格之後他就有一個底氣他可以重考在職重考或離職重考但他已經具備資格所以這個對用人機關來講是很大的困擾就是說我提供了一個職缺但這個人心不在此然後我們就變成一個過水跟新人訓練的機關所以我們也必須考慮到他們的需求要有限制轉調這個要求啦"},{"start":835,"end":841.583,"text":"那但是這個現在要怎麼樣提前解除這個條件我們可以來討論你們檢討一下除了這個離職率以外我們看看我最後提到這個你看我們這個辭職的從108年到113年辭職的人員的職等跟年資"},{"start":854.548,"end":865.197,"text":"其實蠻集中的,其實真的蠻集中,集中在幾個職等在委任三職等跟建任六職等、建任七職等加起來,這三個加起來就到68%"},{"start":866.809,"end":892.365,"text":"這個就要實質的68%快到七成了那如果是70等以下的幾乎就是九成了幾乎就是九成了這問題我希望說我們能夠也能夠針對這樣子這個做一些具體的改革方向包括考機機效這些聯動機制還是要留才啦還是要留才好不好 曾委員希望報這個值等就是剛剛好那個考試剛分發的對就是考試剛分發就集中在這裡就快到七成了好以上"}]}},{"id":"167714","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167714","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e598792ab5ea5330d535fca415873cf37f1d6f5a3a5be601f8a4e85fd41815b697d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:09:19 - 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有請經濟部何市長 請何市長 國會國會主委 然後負稅署尼副署長"},{"start":18.757,"end":39.626,"text":"先請教天然氣的問題,那個次長,這個天然氣主要來源國是澳洲,大概38%那卡達大概25到27,美國到10到11嘛,那這個最新的消息,卡達全球最大的天然氣的枢紐受到攻擊,嚴重損害嘛,所以我們卡達由氣源就會受到影響"},{"start":40.717,"end":62.567,"text":"日本也很大的比例從澳洲他們也啟動請澳洲提高供氣量澳洲是我們最大的供氣國到38%我們有沒有啟動相關的機制我們也有啟動這樣的機制請澳洲政府提高這個供氣量有沒有具體作為有的 我們就是美國跟澳洲的部分怎麼樣具體作為"},{"start":63.948,"end":81.807,"text":"當然就是跟我們具體的量具體的量這個誰來答覆是我請我們能源署好 巴偉那目前在天然氣的一些車的部分在3到4月都不會有問題那5月份應該也我在問你說有沒有啟動要求拜託澳洲提高供氣量嗎"},{"start":82.427,"end":109.274,"text":"跟委員報告目前針對長約的部分像澳洲像其他的多拿亞國家都有啟動來提前取貨的策略來做處理所以剛委員詢問了對於非中東國家的相關的天然氣我就問兩個國家澳洲跟美國有沒有啟動這個機制嗎我們都有啟動這個機制提早取貨量有沒有增加有在做你那個詳細資料要提供給我日本也這個所示在3月16號釋出石油儲量"},{"start":111.468,"end":140.565,"text":"日本除量是正午除以後加上明天除以後有254天我國的石油除量目前的狀況怎麼樣我們現在除量大概有150幾天全部是正午除嗎正午跟明天154天對不對154天嘛155天左右啦日本可以到254天對我建議是不是適度把石油除量天數能夠增加是"},{"start":141.307,"end":168.355,"text":"我們會再增加那個有遠的成功量你要把目標算出來就是說以日本水準是255天我們才144天是不是可以增加180天你要怎麼達成這個目標請經濟部提出具體的做法好那請葉主委跟那個尼副署長這個去年傳送條例也是我當時在我的時候是修法所以為什麼一年不到還有那麼多的版本"},{"start":169.537,"end":193.395,"text":"要提出來針對新創企業詬病的新創底檢等等包括怎麼樣放寬新創認定包括提高個人投資底檢的限額這個在上一次修法的時候本席都已經有提案所以說上一次修法跟這次修法不一樣是上一次有院版那我們尊重行政院的版本所以大部分通過的條文內容都是以行政院版本"},{"start":194.878,"end":210.781,"text":"所以今天跨黨派委員共同提出我想這四項的這個重點修法重點包括第十條包括第二三條之一二三條之二以及有可能剛剛宗家病人所提到的包括把醫療社團法人納入廠商二三條之三的部分"},{"start":211.704,"end":227.813,"text":"我想這個就是符合產業的期待所以我希望說這次能夠把這些新的元素把他在這次的修法一步到位那我看了國安會的報告看過經濟部的報告基本上都是支持本席的提案"},{"start":229.073,"end":248.386,"text":"對沒有錯嘛就國發會對於鼓勵新創事業原則持正面開放的態度那經濟部的立場呢其中對於高風險的那一個你們報告我看過了嘛你們都基本上雖然有點模糊有點抽象但是支持同意這方向沒有錯嘛那經濟部呢是我們其實也都"},{"start":248.846,"end":266.096,"text":"只要對新創好的我們都支持但是就是我剛剛提到還是要整體國家的這個稅制還有稅收影響的考量這個你不用提這個字副稅署來提來 崔副署長你們報告怎麼寫你也支持啊那最後你怎麼寫"},{"start":267.827,"end":283.982,"text":"你的報告是跟委員報告因為去年大幅修正然後其實放寬了一些要件要看這個政策修法之後的效果怎麼樣是是是是效果如何來請教主委跟這個市長效果如何這個效果我這邊"},{"start":286.155,"end":312.703,"text":"因為他問你們效果要評估啊效果是你要評估啊因為去年才完成修法然後是今年五月才要那為什麼還有那麼多產業界有共同的心聲也請很多的這個國會議員在這個修法上面再給予更多的支持但我說上次的修法還沒有到位嘛效果還沒有充分展現出來所以這一次才要再一次啟動修法嘛"},{"start":313.519,"end":328.066,"text":"所以如果這個效果是好的我講財政部也會支持嘛好那我們就按照本席的版本通過所以還是需要行政來協調一下這個"},{"start":330.911,"end":350.997,"text":"這次沒有院版那我看過這個跨黨派的版本大概基本上立場大概都是一致大概四個重點新創抵檢然後能電年限又增加然後這個法人跟創投的股東抵檢這個都是跨黨派共同的意見也是業界一直跟我們反映的"},{"start":352.398,"end":370.132,"text":"所以在沒有願滿的情況之下我們希望以跨黨派共同的條文內容我希望一步到位另外我剛剛提到的醫療社團法人的部分這個部分財政部的立場如何"},{"start":373.119,"end":400.466,"text":"醫療社團法如果上23條之二23條之三是 報告委員這個我們是建議先由主管機關包括衛福部跟經濟部先評估是所以下一次因為這個沒有還沒有23條之三的版本如果有版本我還是會請衛福部先來表達意見那如果站在產業的發展那個次長或者諸位如果23條之二我剛剛這個宗嘉斌委員所提到把這個醫療社團法納入產狀條例"},{"start":404.505,"end":414.475,"text":"郭阿蕙好了 郭阿蕙那個主委我們會我們會會仔細的評估那把這個部分那你要協調這個位置看看是不是這個可行性怎麼樣好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167713","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167713","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59465832d50618c95431a176eedb5d66a3d6f5a3a5be601f8ad6989c2027b9690b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王安祥","委員發言時間":"11:02:59 - 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area是一個非常重要的因為疫情的關係就沒落了我們認為這是一個很好的可以共同開發的案子他們現在的態度也"},{"start":208.324,"end":225.878,"text":"媒體的報導好像對我們有一些都停留在先前的階段因為他們那個市長寫了很多信當然有一些單位並沒有去回覆的很好那我是從去年開始就很積極的跟他們希望說共同來開發所以部長說這個問題已經解決了嗎對 雙半邊已經有一個共識要來做都市更新來一起開發我們也很樂見"},{"start":235.786,"end":261.436,"text":"接下來我們就剛剛我一直提到這個文化的軟實力啦我認為台灣的最強的就部分啦那這個部長是不是可以跟大家藉由這個機會說一下大概部長覺得這個我們文化外交啦這個我們現在最強的文化實力是什麼文化外交是總和外交非常重要特別是對於民主國家他們很尊重甚至喜愛多元的文化所以你看我有個歐洲專案之後你看為什麼故宮到捷克去展到法國去展"},{"start":262.836,"end":290.774,"text":"那我們的部門的官員也可以到嘛因為對他們來講這個就是一個文化交流甚至到了維也納我也可以去這個愛樂廳去聽然後到了義大利羅馬一樣我們幽靈神谷的這個表演我意思是說文化是世界可以說共同語言而且文化強調的是多樣性多元文化嘛大家互相欣賞只有中共啊它是沒有允許多元文化所以"},{"start":291.334,"end":311.814,"text":"用文化外交對比比中國現在的這種戰狼外交我們最走得出去所以去年在歐洲專案我們找文化界包括文化部一起來整合我們既然有一些表演團體甚至金管會現在也發函我們的企業補助文化團體出國表演也可以適用於ESG可以抵稅"},{"start":312.715,"end":325.833,"text":"再來就是文化外交我們那個主題叫From Tech to Culture, Taiwan Leads the Future因為台灣不是只有在德國半導體的投資我們的文化其實跟他們是互補的謝謝部長因為時間的關係所以剛剛沒有錯部長一直在強調這個所謂的多元"},{"start":329.938,"end":352.255,"text":"那所以很多 其實台灣現在很多對外國人的印象 其實很多我們傳統的一些東西啦 像一些宮廟啦像一些我們的這個 這個比較傳統的東西 其實都是 對對對所以我覺得啦 就是因為台灣現在很容易就被扣上這個統戰的這個概念啦 這種紅帽子所以我也是希望啦 就是我們有一個很清楚的概念 怎麼樣區隔我們跟這個"},{"start":354.818,"end":366.333,"text":"這個對岸的這樣子的一個文化參與這幾年其實台灣有發展自己的一個模式我覺得都已經非常不一樣了這個問很多來台灣的外國人問他們要不要改學他們就會告訴我們說他們喜歡台灣這樣子的一個有理非常非常而且先去傳統的部分"},{"start":371.9,"end":388.708,"text":"那部長應該同意我這樣的說法非常同意他們會愛上台灣大部分都是在體驗台灣多元文化台灣的人情味以外其實我們對於不管族群文化先來後到或是世界像當代的這些精緻的文化台灣都可以兼容並需所以跟我其實有關於這種"},{"start":390.029,"end":401.858,"text":"就是東方的文化其實我們也可以搶這個主導權不要都一直在挨打基本上可以看到這一頁投影片先日本還是哈韓像Korea Japan或是Korean Rave這種其實在國際上都蠻有名的我們今天是不是來討論一下部長覺得台灣有沒有什麼很好我覺得這一陣子因為大家打棒球"},{"start":413.747,"end":429.735,"text":"這個聽台灣其實應該是不錯的一個品牌不知道部長有沒有什麼新的想法確實我們現在請除了跟文化部合作以外我們把文化界我們台灣外交部有一個叫做品牌優化的一個小組所以怎麼樣去做台灣Branding"},{"start":430.795,"end":440.941,"text":"然後怎麼反映在我們的禮品我們的這個空間的佈置甚至我們辦的活動裡面好像去年我們那個所謂的這個歐洲台灣文化年我們的那個"},{"start":444.362,"end":465.808,"text":"一個Logo就是用羅馬柱再加上台灣的晶片形成的一個像歐洲的這種神殿那個得到非常大的一個評價我在分享給我們外委會每一個委員那是一個很好的品牌化的一個例子所以我們在進行就是台灣這個跟世界要交朋友裡面文化是共同的語言"},{"start":466.348,"end":491.429,"text":"而且可以創造一些差異化避免被對岸的打壓這個就是日本文化外交的策略我也希望說就文化外交部分希望外交部能夠琢磨更多因為好像剛剛很多前面的委員提到所謂的編制、外館、駐典部分的人員比如像文化類的剛剛部長說很多類的"},{"start":493.03,"end":520.064,"text":"這個外交部可以在這個當然等一下就可以主導很多的事情其實我們國傳司也在做轉型因為以前我當過行政新聞局長就負責這個國家品牌跟行銷後來當了交通部長負責觀光署那也是跟品牌有關的這個台灣的形象然後在外交部現在我們總和外交所以跟文化部有形成一個文化外交我們的一個小組那也把文化界的專家弄進來這個確實啦"},{"start":522.265,"end":548.499,"text":"我們認為台灣傳統外交我覺得有兩個部分一個是現在之外是科技外交跟文化外交是兩個最走出去到世界我們能夠走出去的所以我就提到因為剛剛前面也有委員提到這個南非這個事情現在剛剛部長好像說還在協商那接下來因為好像有提到這一類的東西像這個我們的晶片外交是不是接下來有一些這樣子的一些策略"},{"start":549.8,"end":567.25,"text":"我們從來不以我們的台灣的我們的不管科技或文化作為武器可是當對方這個沒有平等待我們的時候比如說我們在推動這個半導體所謂的信賴的供應鏈那為什麼我們除了跟美日歐以外比如說菲律賓是"},{"start":568.331,"end":583.521,"text":"它在地緣上它也是面對中國的威脅那它也跟美國比較親近所以這個時候我們怎麼樣把半導體的供應鏈把菲律賓納進來所以晶片是可以作為促進龍幫計畫但是有些國家對我們很不好那我們不用是一廂情願"},{"start":585.582,"end":605.247,"text":"去迎合他那我們當然會有親疏遠近這也是我在印尼他有一個很大的這個雜誌跟報紙跟電視採訪我的時候我們會對於平等待我是國家啦我們絕對是會加倍的來去珍惜然後來去跟因為剛剛前面委員在提到這個所謂南海的部分"},{"start":605.367,"end":619.686,"text":"我想我這個意見基本上就是因為現在有很多啦對我們不是非常友善的那也請外交部能夠把這些都想進去我跟委員補充一下是在十年前南韓政府跟我們拜託交涉我們用大韓民國啦"},{"start":622.729,"end":648.188,"text":"但是很多國家也是用South 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移 丙 丁的這樣一個等地方式坦白說已經跟現在的"},{"start":167.572,"end":184.651,"text":"这个很多的评鉴的制度啊还有就是连考试打成绩啊等等都不会再用甲乙丙丁的这样的等地制度所以有没有可能可以去想想看用着其他的这个等地制度来代替比如说特优啊优啊就是良好等等的来"},{"start":187.834,"end":211.268,"text":"來彰顯他確實公務人員他在考金上面他可能因為他的表現的不同然後會有不同的評價否則大家確實會覺得說所有都是76%的人公務員都是假等都是一樣好嗎事實上也不見得是一樣好因為有些是表現的特別好但是卻因為這個等地制沒有辦法去凸顯出這公務員他其實真的表現非常優良"},{"start":212.643,"end":234.16,"text":"還有另外一個就是為什麼這個基層公務人員很在意考積甲等乙等這當然跟獎金有關嘛這個說來說去其實也都是跟所有的公務人員的福利待遇有關那你現在你的這個甲等的考積獎金一個月乙等的呢是0.5個月"},{"start":235.421,"end":254.034,"text":"如果你未来就是可以把它这个等地做得更细致,比如说多增加几个等地,然后也提高考级奖金,我想这个是大家皆大欢喜,而且也不会有人会抱怨说,拿特优的就应该拿一个月,或是1.5个月,那其他的这个普通表现优良的可能就是0.5个月,"},{"start":255.015,"end":273.457,"text":"那中間可能有優良的或者是你們可以有一些不同的一個等地標準那這樣的話我認為說其實會讓公務人員比較心服口服而不是認為說我今天被打一等那個以的在中國人的概念真的是代表說其實不是那麼好但其實還是有拿到考級獎金的"},{"start":274.157,"end":285.024,"text":"所以這次本席就是給市部長還有秘書長這邊建議可以通盤的去思考我們現在在大學裡面教書都知道學生的成績已經也不是在用100分"},{"start":286.584,"end":306.201,"text":"百分比来计算用什么A加A减然后ABCD嘛就有不同的这个等级所以我想师傅长您也在大学教书您可能知道就说我们这个整个评分的制度其实有在改变也很希望说是不是接下来在讨论考G的这个等地制的时候呢也可以有一些新的思维"},{"start":306.98,"end":325.412,"text":"我跟委員報告剛剛陳委員在質詢的時候我們也意識到這已經40年沒有改變了所以部裡面跟院裡面有充分的溝通那其實這是我們從去年周院長在被提名統一權審查的時候他就把這個當成是他兩個"},{"start":326.713,"end":351.094,"text":"工作的一個重點那去年應該先處理的是保障法上半年所以下半年我們就積極在討論那整個大的方向是用不同的思考方式如果你問我的話我們是有點重訂考積法的概念不是叫修正考積法所以那個架構應該會跟以前會有很大的不一樣我可以公開這樣我不會再用甲乙丙丁這種概念"},{"start":352.516,"end":376.873,"text":"但實際上的狀況一定會要跟各個機關因為最後我們法律怎麼設計執行了還是在機關機關要怎麼執行的順暢務實可行我覺得這個才是一個重點然後接下來公務同仁的一些想法過去的想法當然我自己在政府部門這麼久我當然有聽到我想這個事情很自然會在這一次的"},{"start":377.867,"end":390.214,"text":"有點像是比較是重新架構裡面一定會去考慮這些事情那以行政機關的方式大概這樣運作的方式跟委員先做這個報告好 謝謝部長重要的還是要聽這個基層公務員的心聲如果說能夠多辦幾場座談會的話我想會對於就是修正考機制度會很有幫助"},{"start":396.818,"end":414.988,"text":"就這點是不是容許我講個幾十秒現在一個方式要聽意見非常多所以我們設計的方式因為所有公務員都有內部網站都有我們叫ECPA的概念我們會透過這個方式就不斷在上面我們會有設計問卷直接push到每一個公務人員就我們的問題"},{"start":416.77,"end":431.412,"text":"這個表示我想他的觸及力會遠比其他方式來得快好的OK那接下來我還有另外一個議題喔因為在你們今天的報告裡面其實有談到就是接下來會通案性的調高地方機關還有中央政府機關的"},{"start":433.536,"end":452.171,"text":"這個植物列等來平衡中央與地方的發展那麼事實上本席是非常支持這樣的做法確實有關於公務員的官職等的重新調配是有必要的但是本席也看到一個問題就是說你們在這次的調整裡面你們好像似乎忽略了學校"},{"start":453.012,"end":468.797,"text":"學校機關好像其實我們知道像公立學校不管是從大學中學小學應該都有一些公務員的這個配置可是你們看看就是說這個公他們就是同樣就是國家考試考試及格的公務員可是卻在"},{"start":470.057,"end":483.833,"text":"因為他服務的機關的不同而以至於他的這個值等這個所列的值等有差別同時在升遷的時候呢他的這個天花板其實也不同譬如說你從藥治基層的這公務員以組員來講在公立大學"},{"start":489.44,"end":508.265,"text":"高中國中小的組員他最高只能夠升到七職等可是在地方在中央的二級二三級機關的組員就可以升到八職等那在組員專員組長編審秘書組密處長都是同樣的情況也就是說是往中央或地方機關"},{"start":509.565,"end":536.636,"text":"那裡服務的公務員他的職等的升遷會比在公立大學或是其他學校裡面更為順暢而且可能也更有誘因這個基本上會造成一個問題就是可能在大學裡面在這些學校裡面公立學校裡面他留不住好的公務員因為大家如果想說我要往職等更高的地方去的話就會往其他的機關走所以這邊是不是有可能"},{"start":537.81,"end":560.523,"text":"就是請學習部也一併的考量有關於在公立學校裡面服務的這一群公務員他只等可以做一些調整我跟委員簡單的一個報告我們做職務調整一定是先鎖定一些就優先順序啦應該這樣講那所有事情我們意見我們都會參考包括現在我們在學校裡面可能沒有特別這一次在這裡面"},{"start":561.383,"end":582.004,"text":"但是這個我們會再跟行政部門好好再討論那學校跟行政機關最大差別學校人比較少啦就是說你也知道學校雖然大部分都是業用人員可是不能把他們當成是公務員孤兒嘛不會當公務員孤兒啦那另外像是醫院裡面的公務員因為一些公立醫院裡面可能也有一些公務員的一些配置在這次的調整裡面他們有調到嗎"},{"start":584.867,"end":588.133,"text":"醫院體系裡面有另外一套方式不過我想醫院我們另外一塊體系在處理中"},{"start":597.658,"end":616.506,"text":"總之就是說這些都是具有公務員資格的這些人那麼我們希望就是說全區部在調整相關的職等職官等的時候也要注意到公平性一致性不要讓在其他單位服務的這些公務員就覺得好像全區部大小眼"},{"start":617.266,"end":642.435,"text":"我們還是很希望說在這次你們調整裡面能夠把這些學校裡面的公務員能夠一併納入接下來還有一個問題就是剛剛其實也有提到的公務員結社權的問題公務員這次因為因為考試院也提出公務人員協會的修法那裡面又特別提到就是要成立特種"},{"start":643.815,"end":657.336,"text":"公務人員協會那你們現在是因為不允許警察司法醫師等等專業人員去組成化機關的協會所以呢才特別要增加這個特種公務人員協會是嗎"},{"start":659.281,"end":674.694,"text":"對 就是當時是針對就是說因為我們現在是以機關為主體所以就變成那個地方的消防同仁他們的反應他們就只能參加縣市政府的協會那縣市政府有沒有協會當然會變另外一個問題那第二個是他們的意見沒有辦法反映所以我們就做了這樣的設計"},{"start":675.495,"end":704.534,"text":"是 那既然說你們都考慮到就是說是基層的警察 消防等等這些人員他們有這個強烈的希望能夠組織協會的這樣的需求可是呢你們你們放寬的部分項目可是卻在草案的第七條裡面還是說有一些排除的情況簡單來說就是如果說當涉及到像待遇值等薪資等等這些條件或者是說像警察人員"},{"start":705.996,"end":716.572,"text":"最在意的就是有關於像裝備的汰換還有危險加急等等這些難道他們在你們接下來的修法裡面到底可不可以列為協商事項"},{"start":718.749,"end":738.639,"text":"我跟委員報告,不管是公會或是協會,因為我們台灣有個很大的特色,我們內部的人力資源管理制度幾乎都是在法律明定,簡單的說法律寫實了啦,既然是法律寫實了,大概就不太適合作為協商的事項,那可以做的是什麼,它可以透過這個過程來表達,"},{"start":740.62,"end":759.618,"text":"譬如說也許哪些法律不夠好不夠好那可以怎麼一個修正比較會是這樣一個方式啦我想跟委員做這樣一個報告但是如果說只是這樣的話其實我就感受到但是協商的事項還是有放寬的成意不足嘛基本上我們當然希望就是未來他們能夠組織協會之後能夠針對跟與這些警消人員有關的權益的事項能夠自己的表達"},{"start":766.784,"end":795.232,"text":"但是你們現在在第十條裡面有講到如果說它涉及到公共安全的問題的話那又排除但是就像我們剛剛說的像是裝備汰換難道不重要嗎在你們自己的修法裡面就講說如果說是警察機關駐地安全維護相關設施執行各項警務的警力配置警用裝備攜帶的實機警用的槍械與防彈背心採購等等這些事項是不可以提出協商的"},{"start":797.054,"end":822.103,"text":"這細節的東西其實在這種過程裡面我們會很跟譬如說主管機關是內政部這邊的一個討論所以細節的部分是不是這樣子我想可能就是在你們去環遊所以我希望你們回去檢討談判什麼叫做有些協商事項涉及到公共安全所以它就不能夠列為協商就像我們剛剛講像警察的這個防彈背心它是很重要這種採購的部分或是要採購哪些為什麼不能夠加入協商我想定義上應該不是這個意思啦"},{"start":824.044,"end":850.227,"text":"應該說那個部分因為採購設計採購後面的程序你們自己的修法理由這是本席在這裡看到的一個問題點希望說能夠既然我們要修公務人員協會能夠讓這些警消司法警察人員可以組織特種協會的話當然就希望能夠更開放讓他們有更多的權利可以有一些談判協商的事項然後最後一個非常小的問題就是說"},{"start":852.68,"end":872.3,"text":"我們知道身心障礙者權益保障法裡面其實有談到如果因為身心障礙者提前老化的話中央勞工主管機關應該要建立身心障礙勞工的提早退休的機制來保障他的退出職場的生活品質那麼這個是在身心障礙者權益保障法裡面的規定"},{"start":873.061,"end":896.016,"text":"那么现在就是有一些公务人员他有身心障碍的情况的公务人员他提出的问题就是说我们目前在公务人员退休之前抚恤法里面的规定是只有规定就是这些公务员身心障碍的公务员他如果要申请自愿退休必须任职满15年而且要符合所谓重度以上的等级"},{"start":896.496,"end":920.401,"text":"就是他身心障礙等級要符合重度以上等級可是我們知道有些像是中度的身心障礙的公務員他可能鑑定的結果沒有達到重度但是隨著年齡的老化他的體能生理狀況其實早就已經沒有辦法去負荷這種高強度的行政工作所以我們在這裡是不是建議就是說考試院學習部這邊也可以一併的去思考"},{"start":921.181,"end":936.217,"text":"有關於這個中度重度這個之間是不是可以再多列一個標準那麼可以讓一些可能這個偏向重度但他還不到重度的這些公務員也可以讓他們有提前提早退休的機會"},{"start":937.625,"end":954.024,"text":"我跟委員報 重度現在大概法律本來就有講不過重度可以經過一定的評估不過委員的意見我想我帶回去再跟同仁再好好看看說這中間有沒有可能需要應應實務上的一個需要哪些部分也許可以再做一些討論但是這個真的是一個要相當謹慎的一個議題啦"},{"start":955.646,"end":980.031,"text":"好那我希望說你們回去可以好好討論一下這個議題那是不是也可以請你們給我一份報告就是說到底目前在公務體系公教體系裡面有多少的是屬於身心障礙的這樣的公務員然後達到周度以上的有多少位事實的部分我先提供給委員但是至於那個討論的部分可能沒有辦法那麼那麼有一個結論但是就是相關的數據麻煩請先提供給我參考好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e5998111cdceff5bda931a176eedb5d66a341fe0890f16f5428a7c63afbaf1f10e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:29:36 - 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紅國和台灣有邦交的時候 情況是比現在好百倍那承諾當選之後呢 將要跟台灣來做互交然後這個月初呢 我也看到跟阿斯布拉同屬於國家黨的國民議會的議長"},{"start":251.193,"end":260.219,"text":"Zambrano他也曾經表示跟中國建交三年毫無成效那對這個國家的這個經濟呢更是一大打擊因為中國當初的承諾不但沒有兌現而且呢還造成嚴重的這個貿易的失衡像出口下降尤其他們這個白蝦白蝦真的是他們我在想這次讓他們非常沒有難以想像的一個地方居然跟台灣斷交之後"},{"start":280.992,"end":301.342,"text":"這個養殖蝦產業居然受到這麼大的這個衝擊那甚至呢造成這個貿易逆差是不斷的這個擴張所以呢宏國現在可以說是苦不堪言然後一再的說要跟台灣來做互交所以我想請教部長我們這個青台的宏都拉斯的阿斯夫拉總統已經上任了"},{"start":303.263,"end":327.862,"text":"那這幾個月來到底他們有沒有跟我們做接洽有沒有洽談到底後續有沒有這個互交的可能請問部長報告委員我們跟宏都拉斯包括中美洲各國即使我們沒有邦交關係也都有一些互動那特別是宏都拉斯阿斯普拉總統跟我們過去也有一定的認識所以從他競選期間的主張說要"},{"start":329.003,"end":350.691,"text":"恢復跟台灣的邦交我們都非常的重視那也有一定的溝通那當然什麼樣的時間方式對於洪都拉斯最好的一個決定我們是以開放的態度那但是我想台灣過去因為他才跟我們斷交三年嘛我們過去在做有點既定的成果所以得到他們國人的支持"},{"start":351.351,"end":374.588,"text":"那至於說未來進一步的發展我想包括現在的地緣政治上包括川普政府他們的西半球政策我想對於整個中美洲地區有一定的影響那最重要是我們推動總和外交特別榮邦計畫他們也看到包括在他們林邦在瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯做的阿斯普拉總統他有的競選政見最重要就是醫療教育跟創造就業的機會"},{"start":376.289,"end":399.216,"text":"那台灣這個方式是台灣模式相對於中國的模式他們用一帶一路然後大量的傾銷然後控制他們的一些基礎建設那導致很多的貪汙腐化這個後遺症是很大的所以我想很多人已經有基本的認識那對於宏都拉斯自己他去可能要面對也要有一些內外的一個情勢的評估比如說你如果像華為"},{"start":400.456,"end":409.821,"text":"華為已經滲透進去很多國家之後這裡面操控他們的資訊或者一種所謂的政商勾結等等這個當然也會衝擊啦所以怎麼樣我想我們是密切的關注也維持聯繫也尊重對方在適當的一個時機做出決定"},{"start":426.088,"end":451.439,"text":"所以我們台灣這裡的態度是如果是說南斯拉夫這邊有意要跟我們做互交我們也是樂觀其成嗎不只樂觀其成我們是有一定的期待但是我們因為外交是要雙方面基於對方都還沒有跟我們洽談這個部分我們當然是有溝通我意思說我們現在外交不是說我好像"},{"start":452.319,"end":473.07,"text":"就是為了要去建交或者是這種關係因為那會流於可能會變成在競標那我們就是不走金錢外交的路以我們台灣模式讓他們具體去了解說這個對他國家發展的意義比如說最近我們辦玉山論壇也跟智慧城市展一起"},{"start":473.67,"end":496.665,"text":"所以像昨天聖文森的副總理去年也是選舉政黨輪替他組團來台灣之後就去看了智慧城市展他說這是我們國家要的我們的國力是呈現在我們台灣各方面不是只有我們政府的預算當然我們的預算也要拜託因為我們的榮邦計畫很多新興計畫都還沒有立法院通過我們要啟動會有點困難所以要再次懇求大會的支持"},{"start":503.95,"end":520.439,"text":"OK 好 謝謝 謝謝部長因為部長之前你也曾經接受某一個電視這個訪談你有曾經提到說其實現在有很多的國家呢其實很願意跟台灣來進行這個實質的這個外交那當然我們也有看到呢世界各國其實也陸陸續續對台灣的此行釋出了這個善意像例如說像中國之前長期來扭曲這一個"},{"start":527.022,"end":529.963,"text":"聯合國2758號的這個決議像這個英國國會也好或是說捷克的眾議院比利時眾議院歐盟議會等等其實都已經做成了這個決議指明就是2758號其實它是沒有涉及台灣地位這個問題"},{"start":542.529,"end":557.538,"text":"所以我們可以看到就是歐洲各國其實最近已經形成一個反制中國論述壟斷的類似一個陣線那像今年初美國也再次的聲明就是說反對以武力威脅或脅迫改變台海的這個現狀日本也好 加拿大 韓國 法國等等這些國家"},{"start":559.699,"end":572.072,"text":"都在今年初都公開的聲明說台海和平穩定是他們共同關切的這個事項那其實今天我有在你們的專報裡面有發現就是有看到你們有一段文字因為時間的關係可能部長您這個部分沒有提到為什麼這些國家會這麼重視台灣目前的這個國際地位台海和平"},{"start":582.242,"end":586.183,"text":"因為你們專報自己就有提到台灣身處國際供應鏈的樞紐而且全球有九成的先進晶片是在台灣製造的我們幾乎是支撐了全球的半導體的供應鏈再來還有台灣海峽世界上其實有五成的世界貨運其實都是要進入台灣海峽來通行"},{"start":605.527,"end":631.369,"text":"所以這個台海的和平對這些國家來講其實是非常重要的那現在很多國家都看到台灣的這個價值所以部長想請問這是台灣最好的時候嗎我跟委員補充一下以前我們在講台灣的重要性之外我們現在在講台灣可以跟對方創造什麼價值那24582其實為什麼重要中共發動法律戰"},{"start":632.43,"end":655.669,"text":"如果台灣是中國的話 那我們所有的東西我們就沒有主權就沒有產權嘛 也不會有人權所以其實一開始有些國家像歐洲國家他們對2758決議的解釋文 他們感覺這有什麼重要可是你看美國的國務院正式的試點立場的說明而且特別又提到台灣是可以貢獻國際的那在這種情況之下 大家才意識到這是中共的法律戰"},{"start":656.91,"end":677.164,"text":"也就是他從去年三個八十年的所謂的這種論述啊到一支2758的決定到現在在要求一些中國的他們的這些受他們影響的所謂全球南方的國家為什麼在我們有一些名稱上面或是用像比如這個路徑電池卡"},{"start":678.324,"end":699.163,"text":"電子化之後這麼重要的,其實他們都在落實他們所謂的一個中國原則所以這個我們去說明之後,不是說它只是一個某一年的解釋文這個是中共法律戰的基礎,法理基礎,所以我們一定要破它所以透過包括美國,像美國現在的所謂的RCO,就是所謂的區域中國觀察員"},{"start":702.365,"end":715.359,"text":"那我們也跟包括各國都在交流所以中共的所謂法律戰啊然後這個所謂假訊息啦這個跨境鎮壓其實滲透到各國啊都跟這個台灣的這個所謂2758的決議啊"},{"start":718.522,"end":735.634,"text":"雖然二十五號決議根本沒有一個文字一個字提到台灣所以這是為什麼IPAC通過決議是這麼重要然後各國都會一一通過我們反手為攻希望說讓這個台灣的法律地位不要被中共所壟斷變成一中這樣的一個法律基礎"},{"start":736.514,"end":762.91,"text":"所以部長是認為就是說經過台灣的不斷的論述其實現在各個國家其實都可以了解2158號決議真正的它的這個內容跟這個內涵因為時間的關係部長剛剛有提到其實我們的外交工作是越挫越勇當然真的是很不容易台灣一直在國際的這個從過去的我們會覺得說自己像小媳婦現在能夠站到世界這個舞台當然"},{"start":764.091,"end":772.076,"text":"外交部的努力各個單位的努力讓世界看到台灣那我也相信台灣會越挫越勇也會讓台灣的價值在這個世界發光發熱以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167706","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167706","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59e76545cf679b49f731a176eedb5d66a35e5c86e8186f6cedd3f0f74f1cb1674b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:33:11 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我們有請林佳龍林部長請林部長我也好部長好 我想先問喔 欸你知道台灣GD是誰嗎欸有人笑就是你們知道 哇你們果然是外交部的專業同仁不會是你們取的吧"},{"start":22.967,"end":49.499,"text":"他們有時候這樣叫我是有點害羞啦不好意思因為你是good dragon嘛對不對有人這樣講但我不敢去沾光喔這不是我講的了解了解那但是因為這樣子那我想您對韓國應該很了解也很友善才對對我很多好朋友從學術界到現在那但我也要請教一下就是說從今天開始我們要如何來稱呼韓國勒"},{"start":52.223,"end":71.533,"text":"南韓嗎?南韓,好,南韓,OK好那麼呢,好,我們要從這個整個事件開始講起來是在去年12月的時候南韓的電子入境卡白台灣寫成這個台灣China之後呢引起很大的討論那在這個事件出來的時候,我想請問一下我們外交部的第一個做法應該是跟這個南韓這邊的相關的外交部門來做聯繫跟溝通希望他們能夠做調整,對嗎?"},{"start":78.696,"end":104.592,"text":"那對方是給予我們樣子就是在交涉我們先講交涉的這個部分那對方是給予我們什麼樣的一個回應他們本來是二月一號就要統一就沒有紙本統一什麼就是那個就是這個入境那個電子卡電子卡對以前還可以用手寫那統一的話就變成是都是寫台灣China的意思就是都用電子入境卡對啊電子入境卡不允許你用手寫的我知道現在他們延後了他們現在還是沒有說把它合併"},{"start":107.694,"end":132.589,"text":"是 但是沒有啊 因為你電子入境卡上面Taiwan China有被做任何的修正嗎他們在這部分 表示說我們跟他交涉之後我們去年底交涉之後 他2月1號是要整合的 就先放的那我問一下 那你們去交涉的時候你們只是說 哎呀 這個分開讓我有兩種選擇還是你們是認為說 你交涉的是你的南韓電子入境卡的這個部分不要寫Taiwan China"},{"start":133.95,"end":151.362,"text":"對那你剛講的那只是就是一種備案而已啊實際上面我們主要訴求人家沒有接受啊他們現在在處理中啊處理中對啊他說他們有了解我們的立場啊然後他們也在這個研究啊好好等一下我會再跟你進一步討論說他們他們您剛剛的意思是我們一個一個來"},{"start":152.102,"end":175.443,"text":"他們現在正在處理中要把南韓電子入境卡上面寫的台灣 China用其他的方式表示您的意思是這樣嗎對 他們就是正在研究中正在研究 那他有告訴你說要研究多久嗎他們有一個規劃 有一個期程嘛總是要有一個時間點嘛 不過我永遠都在研究 研究100年內結果委員今天的質詢之後 我想他們應該會聽到了沒有 我沒有那麼偉大 我不是台灣GD我沒那麼厲害"},{"start":177.885,"end":191.555,"text":"沒事 那但是南韓的媒體卻指出呢在南韓的官方文件當中一直都是用台灣China來標註台灣的那這個政府二十多年來包含這個其中也有八年是蔡英文總統的執政他說我們都沒有提出異議那請問一下南韓的媒體這樣子報導是有符合事實嗎還是過去其實我們有經過多次的抗議但對方沒有去做改善呢"},{"start":203.298,"end":216.505,"text":"這個是確實韓國一直這樣但是他現在是就是所謂的目的地跟他旅遊的上一站他把它用成China包含台灣所以這個是新制"},{"start":217.568,"end":223.012,"text":"心智是從什麼時候開始 因為它要電子化所以就要整合 去年二月整合是它原本本來有一個 但它有兩種辦法但現在本來要改成只有一種辦法那我先不談紙本的部分 我針對的是電子入境的部分那南韓的媒體它的報導是說 因為如果南韓媒體講的是錯的那我覺得我們也有責任在這裡公開告訴他們說你們這樣報導是不是實的"},{"start":243.746,"end":258.617,"text":"那他們的說法是說呢南韓的電子入境卡不講紙本喔一直以來都是用這樣的一個方式去做標註那你們都還是我們20多年來都沒有意見現在突然對我有意見過去都有意見只是沒有像我這麼樣的清楚直接有力就表達懂你的意思所以就是說過去確實有提出異議但是林佳龍部長是對於這個事情最強而有力去表達的"},{"start":269.645,"end":273.787,"text":"因為他去年二月開始就在我上任外交部長然後他要把他整合啊那整合就會連這個空間都沒有的時候我們當然要表達立場他也聽到了他也暫緩了現在三一我們也但我們不能等他因為他暫緩我們就不做我們該做的所以我們該做的就是呢所謂的反制措施也不是反制就是如實的記錄"},{"start":292.697,"end":307.538,"text":"不是啦 我們反制措施是把韓喬拘留證改成南韓嘛那原本是怎麼寫 現在改成怎麼寫跟大家說明一下好不好就是第一步啦 因為他們其實南韓政府曾經跟我們拜託嘛"},{"start":309.101,"end":335.024,"text":"就是以前最早的時候都把它用南韓然後呢後來變成韓國然後現在我們就說你這樣子對我那我要再叫你南韓是這個意思現在就 Korea 括號 SouthOK 所以他給我們這個對不起 校長China 括號台灣所以我給你 Korea 括號 South你是這個意思是對等跟尊嚴對等跟尊嚴 好有底氣那再來就是說呢"},{"start":336.685,"end":349.57,"text":"他們電子的不改我們改用紙本那這個也是屬於我們反制行為的一環嗎應該是說我們交涉啦我們其實是希望說這個東西能夠大家有一個解決的方法他也說聽到他也暫緩把它整合了"},{"start":352.191,"end":373.496,"text":"對啊所以這個就有時間來談但是我們3月1號因為是基於超支在我們的部分我知道我想要問的是我們用了哪一些我們用了哪一些的手段方式然後去宣傳說大家不要用電子入境卡都要用紙本沒有啦就是有這個選項至少還維持有些人想用台灣還可以用台灣那你有沒有建議嘛因為這也是報導報的如果他說電子化就沒有這個空間了啦"},{"start":378.957,"end":392.8,"text":"對 這個你剛剛講過了我現在講的是說呢因為現在有電子的嘛然後跟紙本的嘛那外交部是否有建議國人不要使用電子入境卡而改填紙本這個報導的這個標題是否屬虛這個標題有一點稍微有點不太一樣那具體是怎麼樣呢你聽我理解的是怎麼樣那如果說對於China括號台灣我們有些國人他很有他的立場啊他有另外一個選項OK"},{"start":407.142,"end":424.193,"text":"所以你沒有建議他要改資本只是說如果你個人覺得那你不想要用這個方式的話那你就填資本這個人的程式是這樣子但在國家的程式我跟他交涉就是基於說你必須要尊重台灣然後用可識別最簡單就是這個我清楚"},{"start":426.414,"end":432.455,"text":"那剛剛講到嘛那我們現在呢就要把這個喬韓的居留證你說以前我們叫你南韓後來呢這個韓國政府請託我們就叫你韓國好那現在呢我要把你改回這個Korea括號South南韓那部長您今天接受媒體訪問的時候你覺得這個會有效還是有效在哪個地方可不可以再具體幫我們解釋說你們是怎麼評估評估它會有效的那有效是有什麼效"},{"start":453.956,"end":458.217,"text":"有沒有效 當然我們先表達我們的立場交涉中他也聽到了 也做了初步先暫緩合併這個紙本跟電子卡但是呢 進一步我們也設定了一個時間3月11號我們希望說他有具體他得出來到底研究的結果是如何所以他有跟您訂一個時間點就是3月11號我們交涉的時候給他一個時間點我們下一步啊"},{"start":479.744,"end":484.425,"text":"我們訂3月11號會有進一步我們的作為都有先知會他所以是這樣子我們給對方的deadline叫做3月11號那如果3月11號對方就是還是這樣子3月31號對 因為我想11號已經過了 sorry3月31號所以我們給對方一個deadline叫做3月31號"},{"start":502.27,"end":510.536,"text":"那如果對方還是依然顧我沒有把韓國的這個入境標示卡去做調整的話我們還要再有進一步的動作是這樣嗎是那你們已經 我不問你喔因為給你到時候 給你到時候時間宣布這個我就不直接去問你反正3月31號之後我們就知道了嘛但是總之你們已經準備好新一波的這個反制作為等到3月31號不如我們預選的時候我們要推出來是這個意思嗎"},{"start":529.048,"end":546.958,"text":"我們交涉中啦當然我們相信對方已經有表達他有知道我們的意見對方有沒有成功我還不是很確定喔你這個也不是現在講說成功就成功因為這個所言甚是啦因為做外交的事情都不是單方面能夠決定因為很難講嘛因為我們看一下齁這個給大家看一下齁這個是呢今天我要來跟部長講因為雖然你是這個台灣GD但你不見得有在看韓國的這個論壇"},{"start":556.403,"end":570.861,"text":"那這個呢FM Korea網站呢它是韓國的一個大型的綜合網路社團就有點像我們的PDT或是Dcard那他們因為台灣祭出這樣的一個措施之後其實給予了很多對台灣的這個負面評價"},{"start":573.024,"end":575.165,"text":"那裡面呢當然我們台灣有這個網友講話有時候比較酸然後可能比較直接那韓國當然也一樣這個世界各國的公民都一樣所以呢比如我一個一個念部長你不要介意這部我寫的一完全沒有打擊感二"},{"start":590.051,"end":595.452,"text":"不是說南韓嗎英文標示的是South Korea那又怎樣改了又怎樣背景那些也改了嗎他們發表的時候不是也是中國台灣嗎完全沒被戳到干我什麼事連對中國都不敢吭一聲的傢伙們那是一樣的道理啊哈哈你想做什麼就做什麼啊就算是倒台灣那邊的傢伙說到骨子裡還是中國啦戰爭爆發的時候你們終究還是得向別人尋求協助但你們認為你們現在的態度正確嗎"},{"start":617.737,"end":638.312,"text":"我念這些的意思是說我們在做這個調整之後對於韓國的民眾來說似乎對台灣開始產生一些敵意而且這一些的內容不是說這個是什麼中國大陸的這個認知作戰或是什麼中共的人然後在那邊寫這個基本上韓國很多民眾確實就我們想嘛 妳像報告委員啊 這個是假的"},{"start":643.375,"end":654.24,"text":"韓國的名義我充分掌握你意思說這上面的人都是假的韓國的六七年輕人都很支持基於對等尊嚴尊重台灣用我們的名字你怎麼知道是誰告訴你說這是假的我都有搜尋資料後來中共大陸大力的介入開始發動網路作戰認知戰所以有一些想要去扭曲其實這件事情是相對來講其實是很清楚的我們就是說你幫我們就是變成中國台灣這個事情我們有意見嘛"},{"start":672.287,"end":693.946,"text":"所以基本上大部分的人都是支持的 包括韓國人你怎麼知道大部分的人都是支持的南韓的人也都很支持你怎麼知道他們都是支持的我有在搜尋啊你有搜尋啊 你搜尋到的結論是怎樣但是後來因為有一波大量的認知作戰進來所以你認為說洗過了啦所以你不能講說是假的因為這些人他可能是真的有這個障就是說確實在論壇上"},{"start":696.528,"end":701.752,"text":"那個部長我跟你講確實在論壇上有這樣的討論但是你可以認為說這一些討論是來自於你認為是中國大陸他們來做的任志作戰那你不能講說這個是假的因為我今天不可能說沒有出現的東西我自己做一個假的論壇然後我來這邊跟你實施假的東西我只是問你說為什麼他們會有這樣子的一個討論所以部長您的意思是你覺得"},{"start":722.105,"end":734.66,"text":"南韓的民眾其實是支持我們現在的反制作為然後甚至因此要求希望他們的政府能夠去改善他的電子入境卡的標示方式而在網路上這一些論壇上面有不同意見的"},{"start":738.825,"end":753.556,"text":"韓國所謂的韓國民眾是因為中共他們在透過認知作戰介入所以才會有的內容是怎樣我跟妳很簡單講第一時間以及我們先前掌握的資訊其實大部分人是覺得這件事情就尊重台灣的日常"},{"start":754.196,"end":778.889,"text":"但是後來確實有介入 這個境外的這個部分不是說是假的 而是說它有網路作戰在操作中的那最後就是呢 那台灣的媒體也有很多因為我跟你講 因為我比較實事求是所以我是直接去南韓的這個網站上面去看他們的討論但是呢 在台灣我們也有許多的媒體他們的報導是這樣 比如我隨便找一篇叫做"},{"start":779.329,"end":797.49,"text":"外交部被嗆爆反制韓國改稱南韓遭韓網集體狂酸自卑作祟這些就是台灣媒體的標題那你有什麼想要跟台灣媒體說的嗎因為如果你認為這個是一個中共的認知作戰那台灣的媒體也跟進報導的話那是不是也被認知作戰"},{"start":798.345,"end":802.746,"text":"有時候不小心會被他利用所以你現在是呼籲大家也相信媒體他應該有判斷的這個能力因為這個論壇裡面相關的這個瀏覽人士其實超過49萬那留言數是900多則所以當然我們台灣的媒體也會注意到那可能也會去報導或是引用"},{"start":820.151,"end":822.633,"text":"但是呢今天部長您的說法是說所以您的說法就是說你所了解的情況這些人是少數中的少數而且是受到中共他們的這個介入所以才會有這樣的一個發言應該說中共已經發動認知作戰了但是不代表說裡面的每一個留言都是來自於這樣"},{"start":843.151,"end":856.904,"text":"好那最後一個問題就是說3月31號如果韓國沒有去修改電子入境卡我們會提出比什麼改成Korea South更加強烈的一個外交的"},{"start":858.38,"end":878.28,"text":"對峙的一個措施我們期待我們的交涉對方也已經有收到也在研究我們就給對方一些時間那我要講的是說最壞的打算最好的打算當然是就我們外交部去協商的事情都能夠成功我也祝福外交部能夠成功但是我作為一個立法委員在這裡監督我還是要問那最壞的打算我們3月31號我提出的那具體的作為一定是比"},{"start":882.083,"end":890.992,"text":"現在只是單純就說你把我改名我也把你改名這樣子的一個措施更加更加的劇烈程度上面提高強度是嗎"},{"start":891.992,"end":917.448,"text":"我們目前就是一步一步來可是你剛剛都講到一半只是你話都已經講一半大家都聽到了那我們現在只是改的是他那個所謂的僑民拘留證是完全是我們自己的我們還沒有去更改這一個所謂的入境的登錄的了解了那我大概了解你的意思了那也希望這個交涉能夠一切順利好不好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"167700","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167700","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59a93f8493ab0020035fca415873cf37f15e5c86e8186f6ced7dc0fecf33e734415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"10:21:10 - 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是因為我們"},{"start":185.502,"end":212.902,"text":"基本上還是站在整個國家的產業發展上面來持有這個所以就譬如說像台積電的話我們也基本上不會激進因為我的原則很簡單我跟你理性高峰談就是說因為它是2.1兆非常巨額所以我是覺得說如果你只是用一個單純的作業辦法然後有這些東西算到多少錢我覺得不夠把它提到位階這是我們的一個立場這樣子讓你理解一下"},{"start":213.82,"end":241.765,"text":"然後再來的話呢接下來都不是我講的都是監察院的報告那他列出的這些的缺失其實作為我們這一次本黨團修法的一些的依據比如說我們看一下這幾個包含盧鑫案保德能源、聯合再生、東北等等那監察院說的比如說你在這個盧鑫案裡頭未於決議詳疑調查憑藉被收購之9D集團人準與驗收付款"},{"start":242.225,"end":251.65,"text":"又忽視外聘專家學者警示意見令該基金委託資產聯合會計事務所以禁止的調查揭露東北公司財務問題"},{"start":253.413,"end":279.658,"text":"那略有重點管理項目應採取適當因應措施但是你也沒有發現他該公司的私募基金用於償還銀行的借款等等那監察院裡頭還有一個很重要的重點就是我們的這些的政策評估投資評估審議等等的會議沒有留存錄音發言記錄且會公開透明方式進行所以將來出事的時候難以釐清這樣的權責"},{"start":281.078,"end":308.796,"text":"那除了管理會有錄音之外其他都沒有所以我想這個是他寫的第三個經財院也非常強烈的說在我們這一個所謂的原產業創新轉型基金評審會委員組成的運作機制進行回歸一般直接投資的申請適用之投資評估審議委員會所以它導致原本我們比較重大的這些的政策的一個案件的時候它要三分之二的"},{"start":309.156,"end":325.828,"text":"出席委員同意可是因為他用這樣的方式的話他把它變成降為半數 二分之一所以我們在修法裡我們是希望說如果等著SOP的法制等著程序的一個公開透明我們希望能夠把這樣子的東西列進來"},{"start":327.029,"end":351.918,"text":"那我想最後我想要再跟各位再跟你們溝通一下的就是說我認為我們在這個法條還有一條很重要的像我們在盧興濫跟聯合再生的話其實它有很多的東西我們很害怕國發資金是有資底的這樣子的一個風險所以像盧興的話你把國發資金投入了公帑去變相補貼它海外的競爭者"},{"start":352.938,"end":375.965,"text":"那聯合再生在關鍵能源設施當中使用中置太陽能板的零組件所以這個是違背 對不對我們的這個政府的區中化 國產化所以我認為說在這個法條上面我們也希望把這個缺口補起來這也讓主委能夠理解那當然這個所謂的你們在這個回答裡面有關於說這個"},{"start":378.965,"end":405.339,"text":"第6頁法律重複規範這裡主要是因為出來手按這樣子的一個關係那因為這個全市部有函述說投資約約關係委託經營關係這些已經列入規範所以我也同意啦我們就把它列到這個公務員的限制規定跟處罰有一個一致性的一個標準那如果你認為我們那一個投資方不符合比例原則你就拿出你們的修正的版本出來"},{"start":406.22,"end":409.916,"text":"那這個以上大概我希望能夠大家有個良心的溝通 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167711","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167711","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59708ae16714c073f75fca415873cf37f1d6f5a3a5be601f8a0e7e88b7d6e8a5905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:01:57 - 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何市長今天我們經濟委員會特別排審產創條例那這在去年雖然在去年4月的時候在立法院已經經過了審查也做了一些調整那當時最主要的就是要延長投資跟減稅的這個優惠時程那當時我們說AI的人工智慧跟這個"},{"start":47.586,"end":50.328,"text":"节能减碳要纳入这个设备投资的"},{"start":77.726,"end":102.629,"text":"是不是可以依據我們各產業的需求提出因地制宜的AI導入的模式來協助各產業做一個評估的效益是有的我們經濟部有成立一個產業輔導團那我們會針對各個產業它在AI上的應用的部分我們會來有專家學者來提供有在評估嗎有有在做協助哪一個方面會比較更加急迫需要AI的導入"},{"start":103.63,"end":106.654,"text":"當然就是我們現在這個針對製造業的部分我們大概大概有六七十條的那個市產線可以讓這些這個產業在這邊本席就跟你提供一下如果我們以工具機的產業為例"},{"start":120.814,"end":123.516,"text":"那AI的導入是可以幫助他們提升了加工的精度跟自動化的檢測 製程的優化所以他們也非常需要用AI的導入但是他們在整個產品的價值跟供應鏈的競爭力下是有需要的"},{"start":139.447,"end":141.969,"text":"現在因為台美他的ART裡面有談到關稅的問題會調降到15%不疊加但是美國最高法院的裁定這個關稅對等關稅是違法的所以又改用122條款是用10%"},{"start":155.158,"end":167.642,"text":"而且是疊加的在當前的我們台灣工具機出口到美國的這個整個稅率這樣子看起來的話是沒有辦法跟日韓來做競爭因為日韓都在14%以下10%跟12%所以在這樣子的情況之下我們要如何來協助那個我們所需要像工具機這個產業的話他們需要導入這AI用什麼硬硬的"},{"start":180.086,"end":201.376,"text":"城市去做轉型或者是我們政府這邊有沒有及時的協助的辦法措施工具機這個產業其實現在也跨到比如說像這個半導體像這個航太其實也用了很多的工具機的這個部分所以工具機不僅是"},{"start":202.977,"end":216.171,"text":"現在看現在價格競爭 因為它每年的出口值已經一直下降了嘛 對 但是現在這幾個月其實工具機的這個產值有在回升啦 回升當中 因為原來原來我們是20%疊加嘛 那它現在是降到10%疊加 其實我們跟"},{"start":223.679,"end":229.503,"text":"臨近的競爭國日韓他們都10% 12%我們現在大概是14%原來的部分我們原來20%疊加現在10%疊加我們的距離已經拉近了拉近當然他們日韓比我們低當然但是我們現在就是產業的出口你長久來看的話經濟部你還是要去評估一下怎麼樣協助他們再跟日韓有一個競爭力不會被削減掉 是的"},{"start":250.655,"end":276.95,"text":"那接下來本席想請教一下就是說因為現在國際的歧視我們看到美國聯手了以色列對伊朗的這個軍事行動那這個戰事也不知道會到什麼時候我們是擔心說我們很多能源都是從國外進口的97%都國外進口那尤其是我們整個進口的天然氣跟石油都佔了比較大部分那尤其是在這個"},{"start":278.351,"end":302.366,"text":"我們大概37%的是天然氣的進口 66%的話是原油進口都來自於中東 在這種情形之下我們看到這首當其衝的應該就是中油中油目前的話它的虧損已經到804億了那現在本來想說今年會由虧轉盈的大概會轉小賺個80億但是剛剛有提到我們這個前"},{"start":304.828,"end":321.8,"text":"這個昨天我們經濟部的賴次長就講了光兩週就虧損了33億那我們看到這個虧損的情形之下我想問一下整個中原面臨的這個財政的危機那現在他今年又向我們經濟部提出了四年3500億的增資計畫那來比照台電對他們來幫忙那請問經濟部你們立場的態度是如何"},{"start":328.745,"end":356.17,"text":"當然我們現在已經把這個公文已經呈報給這個行政院就這個增資計畫我們會同意嗎當然我們現在是同意的我們才會轉到行政院院裡面其實現在也正在審查當中如果院裡面也支持這樣的做法的話也會送到大院這邊來做審查其實中油做一個國營事業它是扮演一個就穩定物價的這樣的一個功能所以我們中油它提出這樣的一個增資計畫也是做"},{"start":357.33,"end":380.347,"text":"做最後的打算 那當然也希望委員這邊能夠來支持好 給他一個協助但是我們採購所有的這個不管是天然氣或者是原油我們希望不要單一窗口能夠是多元化的去布局才不會有局限在一個地方那尤其我們看到大部分都是在中東地區那是不是我們有可以多元的選擇"},{"start":381.448,"end":402.789,"text":"那像我們在ART裡面就有提到要對美採購在2025年到2029年要增加444億的美元天然氣跟原油我們原來這個占比天然氣是11%這個原油是21%那未來我們增加444億的時候未來的占比%數是多少到達哪裡"},{"start":403.61,"end":426.321,"text":"你們有評估嗎跟我們報告其實我們現在就是分山流遠那中東的部分我們就盡量盡量轉移到美國澳洲這些國家這是我們的方向增加部分增加多少增加的部分可能我們要再細緻再說一下大概增加到20%本來美國大概是在10%左右天然氣增加多少"},{"start":427.762,"end":433.269,"text":"因為可能要等到阿拉斯加那邊那個好 那你估算出來給本席一個報告好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝林議員"}]}},{"id":"167715","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167715","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e5986690bff319ccb919f861acbcf5e1501d6f5a3a5be601f8a4e85fd41815b697d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:09:44 - 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謝謝主席 有請全序部 施部長好 請施部長好 施部長早安有一件事情要先謝謝您來下一張我們在今年一月的時候呢有快速跟您討論關於這個公務人員媒合機制的平台的事情謝謝你們非常快速迅速地做了回應而且我知道你們跟任總有做一個方案跟規劃 對嗎"},{"start":31.5,"end":48.699,"text":"對 也謝謝任總 因為這還是要透過他的平台是是是 因為他今天沒有在被主席邀請出席的名單不過我還是把相關問題提回去還是要拜託全序部持續跟任總討論怎麼說呢因為當時裡面我們提到一個非常重要的事情是新上任 剛考上這些公務員 他們可能就"},{"start":49.119,"end":78.542,"text":"大概有百分之二十到二十五是選擇就不到任就放棄了選擇重考當時我們就有考慮過是不是因為他們被分發的地方可能是離他們的家鄉太遠離他們現在的家庭社區太遠所以我們當時會跟任總還有權敘部提出這個建議主要還有一個部分是針對這個新考上的公務員可是我們現在看到你們跟任總設計出了這個平台喔我們問了任總他說因為尚未具有公務人員任用資格非屬申簽法第三條之適用之對象"},{"start":79.262,"end":101.45,"text":"好那問題就剛好出現在法規範跟我們有心想要完成促進的這個平台之間剛好有這個法規上的空缺我不會說是漏洞是空缺因為確實這些剛考上的人他沒有報到他在法理上他就不是所謂的公務員那我們想了一想我們想要請教一下施部長實務上我們可以怎麼幫助這些公務員來下一張"},{"start":103.601,"end":132.242,"text":"我們在想說如果這百分之二十幾的人他們因為沒有報到因為他們可能看到自己被分發的地方不是他們要去的他們就選擇不報到那我們到底要怎麼解決我們試著在像現行的法規裡面找到一個可能性也想跟全序部討論看看下一張目前在公務人員考試及格人員分發辦法裡面第十一條有講到這個考試及格的分發辦法相關這三條都沒有我們都沒有什麼問題但是我們在想如果讓高"},{"start":132.782,"end":156.968,"text":"高普考及格的人也可以准用這個公務人員互調交流平台的機制有沒有辦法在這個分發辦法裡面加上第四條第四款呢就叫做讓高普考及格的人也可以用有沒有這個可能當然我都說需要討論我們只是先提出我們因為之前的問題是我們提出的嘛那謝謝你們進一步做了平台可是這些考上及格的人他可能分發報到"},{"start":158.348,"end":186.392,"text":"他發現地點不是他要去的所以他可能就還是沒有來因為在你們的平台裡面說這些人不適用所以我把這個問題再提出來部長你不用現在回答我我知道我只是要拜託你們這真的是一個tough的question我們一起努力好不好謝謝部長那就拜託那我們辦公室也會再把相關資料提交給全庶部跟人總拜託你們持續協助我們一起解決這些優秀的年輕公務員可以報到而且是他們想去的地方然後代表我們公務機關其實是有誠意的好不好"},{"start":186.792,"end":209.07,"text":"我想後續有些需要的時候再跟委員互動討論好 那兩個月內會不會太趕我覺得這個事情可能涉及到很嚴肅的法律那沒關係 我們時間就先不一樣我的意思是說是不是隨時 如果需要的話我們隨時保持討論好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 部長請回 謝謝那我們一起努力 感謝接下來有請保訓會蔡主委 謝謝確實是很難的問題 部長 沒錯"},{"start":216.754,"end":237.37,"text":"主委有一件事要跟您討論一下是我們現在在服務現場實際遇到的困境所以我們需要跟您討論就法規上的解讀來下一張我們服務在馬祖那馬祖現在有一個北甘鄉的衛生所醫師請注意他是公費醫師回鄉服務那他在服務的期間呢兩三年期間持續受到霸凌"},{"start":238.03,"end":265.296,"text":"那他呢就向衛生局他是誰霸凌他是衛生局的局長霸凌他那衛生局的上層機關當然就是連江縣政府嘛他就去跟連江縣政府申請說他被霸凌然後他需要協助這樣結果連江縣政府跟他說啊你是衛生所的醫師你現在要被申訴的這個人是衛生局的局長那衛生所跟衛生局不是同一個單位所以連江縣政府不受理"},{"start":266.345,"end":284.914,"text":"他這樣說完之後他還打電話給這個醫師說我們問過保訓會了保訓會說你們是不同單位所以不用受理而且還說不會用公文來回覆這個被霸凌的醫師我覺得很莫名其妙我們在處理這個事情的時候他們就莫名其妙把保訓會拉出來了我們認真研究了法規之後"},{"start":285.934,"end":305.828,"text":"我們發現保訓會應該要有一些角色但會不會是連江縣政府胡假虎威假借保訓會的名義說不關縣政府的事情所以我們研究了一下所以我想要請教一下主委幾個問題第一個衛生局跟衛生所是不同單位所以我們無法受理這個說法成立嗎"},{"start":306.949,"end":315.995,"text":"跟委員報告如果從法治慾上面原來的那個我們的保障法它其實是focus在這個統一機關但是"},{"start":317.796,"end":346.712,"text":"由於在整個的食物運作上面那衛生所的主任他當然是受衛生局局長的業務指揮然後呢甚至於連他的烤雞然後呢業務交辦等等所以在我們的解釋上面我們把它視同是同一機關所以這個當然連江縣政府他回覆說您剛有提到說是連江縣政府來問我們保訓會他跟我們說我們有打"},{"start":347.313,"end":364.415,"text":"電話給保訊會他我猜想他會不會連公文都沒有發給你們保訊會他至於等一下而且我要幫他多說一句他搞不好有沒有打我都打一個問號喔是這個我請我們的那個安慰處處長比較清楚他他有來過嗎有嗎連江縣政府有問你們這個事嗎"},{"start":366.052,"end":383.644,"text":"跟委員報告 連江縣政府已經行文來 穩了什麼時候 行文 什麼時候行文 應該是上個禮拜的上個禮拜 那我告訴你這個事情已經持續快兩年了所以他被我們追到不行 他們現在來跟你們求救我要說連江縣政府真的很糟糕這個被申訴的衛生局局長真的很糟糕"},{"start":384.565,"end":400.403,"text":"不是你們的問題好 所以謝謝你們那你們收到公文之後你們就要回覆他們對不對會 當然好 那我要說如果按照主委你剛剛的解釋他其實在法理上你們會認定他是同一個單位那既然他是同一個單位他是不是就應該要受理相關的霸凌案是"},{"start":401.184,"end":416.572,"text":"好他就是跟連江縣政府去連江縣政府是他的上級機關是好太好了那我們會持續追蹤最後跟您請教一個問題這一位公費醫師他在法律身份上算不算公務人員保障法裡面所保障的公務人員"},{"start":417.512,"end":440.913,"text":"算算是拜託再大聲一點算算我會去告訴連江縣政府保訓會主委告訴大家這位公費醫師是屬於公務人員保障法裡面要保障的公務人員好如果是這樣現在如果用公務人員職場霸凌處理指引他們的法定申訴管道應該向誰提出我可以回答說他應該還是要向連江縣政府直接提出對嗎對"},{"start":442.074,"end":459.313,"text":"好 太好了如果後續我們在處理上有相關的爭議跟問題我們辦公室會再持續協助這位公費醫師因為我要強調他是一位非常年輕的公費醫師他之所以到北甘鄉市那是他的家鄉他自願請教回家鄉做公費醫師的服務而且他告訴我"},{"start":459.974,"end":476.506,"text":"他還想繼續留在那裡他還想留在家鄉我要說公費醫師現在有多麼的珍貴而這個年輕醫師卻因為這個霸凌案被連江縣政府衛生局跟連江縣政府不當對待我們會持續追蹤後續在相關法規上也需要保訓會協助我們好嗎好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席 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其實就是文化及生活習慣還有作息造成的社區超載舉例來講園區我們開發後業者他通常不會把寶貴的土地買來蓋宿舍但是他的業界又大量的使用移工移工他就給仲介去處理仲介幹嘛仲介他的附近的社區"},{"start":82.45,"end":98.767,"text":"這些產業園區開發後周邊的社區很多都是老舊的部落有的小孩搬出去了整棟沒人住租下來怎樣租金便宜但是一旦這些人進駐之後怎樣機車進出停放因為他連搬嘛"},{"start":99.548,"end":126.11,"text":"大家在睡覺了他那邊進出然後呢然後他的垃圾啊因為不落地居民乖乖的七點鐘晚上垃圾菜來丟掉移工他沒有辦法所以就堆積在那裡這些其實就是說明了什麼在既有的農村社會如果在園區旁邊搬來了很多的移工他會不會造成這個衝突你覺得會不會會那怎麼解決是不是在園區裡面廠商他要蓋宿舍給他們住"},{"start":127.168,"end":145.674,"text":"是不是這樣你不用點頭你可以說是或不是是嗎如果廠商有能力的話對 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Nations他是用Restoration"},{"start":108.834,"end":138.193,"text":"但在联合国的创立中华民国是原始的主要国签字到宪章还是中华民国那你现在怎么去恢复中国大陆呢他不敢用一个字他不敢用replacement所以他不能讲取代中华民国或提到台湾因此这个部分的文字我觉得我们未来在授课过程学院里面对年轻的外交官在国际法里面的用字要强调这个让大家认清因为现在被扭曲的解释"},{"start":139.687,"end":143.451,"text":"最關鍵因為中華民國是聯合國的創立國又是安理會的常任理事國所以這個確實是涉及到中國代表權但是對台灣來講在這個2758決議裡面150個字裡面並沒有去觸及謝謝"},{"start":165.728,"end":168.315,"text":"下面這個圖提供做參考這個"},{"start":171.034,"end":196.748,"text":"川普在去年的4月2號提到了對等關稅他說這不是經濟問題他這是已經國安問題當他提到國安問題的時候就涉及到地緣政治地緣經濟地緣戰略因此這三個地緣的問題這個已經糾結在一起正如同您今天的報告書裡面講全球地緣衝突持續加劇台灣的戰略自主也越行重要"},{"start":197.248,"end":217.201,"text":"那我在这边也持续向这个贵部或者其他部会提出建议希望我们的政府在这个任内提出我们的国家安全战略因为刚刚您提到了在美国国家安全战略去年11月公布的时候提到台湾八次但是到了美国国防战略的时候就没有提到台湾"},{"start":218.041,"end":244.274,"text":"那最主要的原因是国家安全战略国防战略国防军事战略在作战区它是一层一层的下来的那么有重叠有指导从上到下是政策指导从下向上是实力支撑那要产生一个coherent strategy那目前在这一块我们并没有所以从这个图上里面可以看到啊川普跟这个"},{"start":247.594,"end":256.95,"text":"习大大他们见面的时候谈不谈触及不触及台湾基于他们双方的利益那我们要保持我们自己的核心价值"},{"start":257.748,"end":278.61,"text":"所以說這個全球的經濟經貿持續充滿變數世界需要台灣的科技同樣就是地緣衝突加大這個衝突不只是經濟的政治的軍事問題那在這種格局下我們需要運用AI的大數據也建議我們在這個外交部強化AI這個工具上的運用"},{"start":279.491,"end":302.088,"text":"就是把全世界有关我们叫开源情资就是open source information那这个部分要用这个AI来做整合对于国际情势发展可以产生一个预应的作为那么在下张图我们现在看到国际现实中大国基本上就是两手策略左右换利"},{"start":304.367,"end":332.78,"text":"前后施压双重标准上下调序变换主题使他的友盟在对手中不得不做出让步那这个中间就是国家安全战略的关联性包括你的实力包括你的价值观包括你的利益当然有军事经济治安政治还有核心利益长期利益短期利益再加上我们的价值观民主自由法治但是这三个关系是互联互动性的"},{"start":333.26,"end":344.589,"text":"我们需要把我们的center of gravity透过国家安全战略能够及早定位出来那这种情况下可以看到美中两边呢他是斗而不破"},{"start":345.748,"end":366.543,"text":"和是维持和平但不合作那我们在中间的角色会越来越重要但是自我核心价值的定位啊还是要靠一个文字的文字版本的中华民国的国家安全战略那美国的这个和平啊手段他后面一定是个实力支撑所以你看这个和平哥后面他是他的B2轰炸机啊"},{"start":367.023,"end":379.003,"text":"所以顯示出是他這個永遠呢在彈後面有實力這個不彈他要從另外一個管道做迴路那這個做您參考最後這個圖啊就是從"},{"start":381.397,"end":398.577,"text":"川普一啊到拜登一到川普现在任了那这是强权主导的外交政治跟政军精心的模式啊他是强势威择斗而不破合而不合制造议题主导谈判这是强权的主导但是这里面的每一个项目都可以排序出来"},{"start":399.178,"end":424.294,"text":"它是前后调整那我会把这个图提供给这个会部那另外我们也建议用方法论在这里面每一个产生的但书跟回馈的条款它可以左右调整那这个时候如果变成一套运用的工具对我们外交部的同仁来讲就是变成预印而不是等到事情发生的反应我想这个部分请大家一起共同努力"},{"start":425.294,"end":450.606,"text":"好 謝謝委員 這個很要有架構跟理論的一個對外交的角色啦 跟他的功能定位那確實我們外交學院也希望把這些納入這個對外交官的訓練 那我們的研社會還有幾個單位我們也待會有在注意 這個委員不只質詢您在接近外賓還有有一些"},{"start":453.067,"end":476.959,"text":"談話裡面這也跟我們總和外交是高度契合謝謝因為剛才前面的委員已經提到了就是這次美伊在伊朗中東周邊國家的外交部隊我們駐外僑民的掌握這個協助當然這個是大家共同努力因為在國家安全戰略裡面我們可以加上一條就是對於育嬰如果"},{"start":477.839,"end":495.524,"text":"在某个地区发生了战争那这个时候跨部协商的机制如何来主导是不是在这个状况下我们要做一个特别专案预留一些预算要特别的缘额因为靠住在我当地可能人数不足"},{"start":496.284,"end":524.67,"text":"或者是它的复合也不堪能够协调要透过友好国家的共同努力那么未来我们在规划的时候希望把这一个特别案例因为全世界将来发生军事冲突的几率都仍然存在那做出一个特别案例预做预算阴影及人力复合以及跟这个航空公司的包机如何处理我今天早上还接到一个华航机师回报的从这个多哈出来的飞机是满的"},{"start":525.33,"end":544.228,"text":"就是座位定不到那当然不是光我们的同仁那我觉得我们外交的同仁在这个领域上也付出很多我们希望共同努力预应这个危机而不是这个危机发生了以后如何做危机控管这个提供部长您做参考好 谢谢文好 谢谢这边就可以了"}]}},{"id":"167698","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167698","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e596feaf8cdee37034f5fca415873cf37f15e5c86e8186f6ced4999303e8e406dd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:12:51 - 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楊全芳也邀請國防會主委國防會葉主委委員長主要好 本期在跟你討論我們今天產業創新條例那麼主要的目的是要提供在這個"},{"start":25.762,"end":54.21,"text":"抵檢的部分跟租稅優惠的部分本席也提案未來會陸續併上來一起討論所以本席在這邊首先要請教產業創新條例到目前為止我們在去年的4月份主要因應社會整個一個情勢所以包括了AI包括了節能減碳的這個項目包括了生意科技"},{"start":55.01,"end":69.316,"text":"5G的部分那這是目前全球性的一個趨勢所以因此我們在去年4月份的修改了這個部分加入了這些面向那但是在整個條件上 實務上 本行認為誘因並不足"},{"start":71.777,"end":88.267,"text":"那你如果優因不足會影響到整個企業以及民間的投資他願意要加入我們新創事業的一個意願所以首先我們也有同仁也提出所以本集提出的修正草案是將"},{"start":89.187,"end":96.57,"text":"研發以及投資體檢的比例由原現行的最高15%來提高至30%投資體檢的部分上限由30%提高到50%那同時呢新創事業認定我們現行的是5年"},{"start":107.814,"end":128.183,"text":"但是有很多他在原意的時候並沒有辦法在這個5年當中可以讓他們放心所以本市認為應該要將這個年限由5年來放寬到8年那還有個人的部分提高個人投資減除的部分由現在的500萬"},{"start":129.964,"end":159.444,"text":"現在的500萬來提高到1000萬來符合整個產業實際上需要的一個發展需求所以在這種情況之下本席要請教主委透過提高投資體檢的比例放寬新創產業它的一個年限跟提高個人的投資誘因來強化民間願意投入到我們創新的產業的方向那請教主委你的看法"},{"start":159.764,"end":189.185,"text":"好 謝謝委員就那個新創事業認定年限從五年放寬到八年這個部分我們原則上這個方向我們是支持的那為什麼你們自己為什麼會沒有版本呢本席覺得邏輯有一點奇怪啊你去年通過加注這些項目那你現行就是五年啊還好你同意本席的提案將五年的年限來你同意是八年嘛好 這一個達成共識啊"},{"start":189.785,"end":205.752,"text":"這個部分再跟委員說明一下就是說這個5年到8年以及個人投資減儲還有那個研發投資低減比例從15到30這個部分是經濟部這邊在主導所以我們請經濟部對因為你是督導單位嘛好那請經濟部也一併上一同討論因為國發會你是督導單位啊而且你是負責協調聯繫各部會的啊來經濟部"},{"start":216.656,"end":233.961,"text":"跟委員報告現在他同意他同意五年那八年來接下來是其實這個部分我們是有共識的啦五年到八年這個部分剛剛談過了嘛那第二個部分就是說是不是要把他抵檢的金額15%現行的其實我們還要跟財政部討論"},{"start":237.362,"end":255.519,"text":"因為這個會牽涉到整個國家的稅收的機制另外他可能還有在另外一個部分對個人的部分也有比如說你那個像盈利事業他如果投資到這個新創的話他的股利是免稅的所以這個要整理國家稅制要考量所以這個可能要"},{"start":256.239,"end":261.864,"text":"免稅現在是現行因為他的誘因不足所以我們才要提出相關所以我請各部會在回答的時候你現在現行誘因就不足你要講現行的這個方案那根本對整個事情無視於補而且你在去年4月份的時候才通過加注現行的這一些所以我請行政部門我們大家好好的真心的用"},{"start":281.62,"end":284.644,"text":"我們實際的這個動作來協助我們的產業才能夠讓我們立法院通過的這些法案能夠落實到位啊如果回答就是只有回答目前的狀況那根本不用修法啦除非你的條件是可以符合我們民眾的需求嘛"},{"start":298.76,"end":305.372,"text":"就是因為沒有辦法符合我們才要討論所以再請教投資體檢部分由30%提高到50%個人的部分由500萬體檢的部分提升為1000萬 您的看法"},{"start":313.171,"end":329.723,"text":"這個可能要先請教一下財政部主席今天你請相關單位來對不對每一個人你沒有自己的看法主席者單位都沒有自己的看法你要請教別人"},{"start":330.103,"end":352.387,"text":"那這個邏輯太奇怪我們今天首次提出這樣的一個這個法案出來大家就是要共同討論啊你應該要有你的立場啊而不是我聽誰的啊不是 因為這個會牽涉到部會協調當然經濟部是支持這樣的一個提案給新創更多的優惠當然都是我們希望對 你這樣講就對了嘛這樣子我們才有辦法繼續討論啊整體國家的這個"},{"start":356.928,"end":372.116,"text":"對 我們的目的我相信大家都是一致的目標也就是讓新創通過之後能夠真正的來落實尤其是節能減碳的這個部分這是全球的一個方向嘛 對不對所以你的方向是同意的嘛國發會剛剛連線也同意嘛 好"},{"start":375.518,"end":402.405,"text":"那我们希望到时候我们在讨论的时候能够朝这个方向支持本席的这个提案真正协助我们新创的产业那接下来本席要请教国发会国发会我们现在呢你114年度你的督导公建的部分是8137亿那我们也提出了说这会115年会是未来18年来公建最多的会最多的"},{"start":402.765,"end":422.911,"text":"今年都會最多但是我們看到也就是說在整體的一個規劃裡頭基礎生活的這個條件尤其這個戰爭的因素有沒有納進去因為光光塑膠物料原料原則上現在就已經很多的廠商不敢報價"},{"start":424.031,"end":443.511,"text":"也不知道未來要怎麼樣所以在這個情況之下在各個因子一直浮現的時候那你們要怎麼樣去將民生物價因為產業攻擊的攻擊鏈跟外部風險不可抗的一個因素不斷的在提升那你要怎麼應對因為"},{"start":445.453,"end":468.586,"text":"在行政院裡頭的物價這個小組裡頭穩定小組你是最重要的幕僚跟協調機構來 請他回答一下 謝謝這部分的話就是政府院長現在都每一個禮拜他都會開那個臨時物價那一個匯報那也會針對幾個很重要的民生17項民生物品會進行監控 對"},{"start":471.067,"end":489.956,"text":"所以這個部分一定要好好的監控因為就像昨天農委會我就要求不一定要不可以去因為這是最基層他也答應那所以本席已經跟你提出塑膠物料是源頭那已經開始了而且是石化的下游這個非常重要一定要嚴格的去監控穩定物價謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167699","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167699","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e590b34014309cfdc2b9f861acbcf5e15015e5c86e8186f6ced15f377d25edfc7d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"10:10:19 - 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有請考試院劉秘書長跟我們程序部施部長好 請秘書長還有施部長兩位長官 我想先請問一個我想全國都很關心的問題就是現在到底軍人加薪跟警消退休金的狀況是怎麼樣目前執行的狀況如何呢"},{"start":39.617,"end":59.314,"text":"軍人加薪不是我們的業務範圍那您說警察就是就那個警察人事條例修法的部分那就審定的部分全區部這邊去年底已經之前都已經完成審定函那執行的部分呢執行的狀況如何執行的狀況因為這個就是跟全區跟這個對不起跟行政院編列預算這個有關"},{"start":61.055,"end":85.618,"text":"所以說就是行政院沒有編列預算嘛現在的狀況是那所以如果問題是出在行政院的話那行政院不願意編列預算是不是我們考試院應該主動啟動所謂的院計協商來去依法編列預算呢跟委員報告因為它這個修法是修在警察人事條例裡面這個條例是行政院的主管的法律所以也不是考試院主管的法律"},{"start":86.192,"end":96.837,"text":"那他的預算法律在行政院那預算也是行政院要編列依照法律的規定所以這個我們沒有這個反而是跟我們的退府制度是沒有沒有關聯"},{"start":97.938,"end":124.972,"text":"所以我所以說現在狀況就是說沒有編列預算那小勢雲變成是說這個法過了但是沒錢可以沒錢可以執行對吧對他目前的狀況是這樣老師說我就覺得我讓我覺得很困惑因為嚴格講起來不管不是只有公務人員是公務人員警員警軍人也好警消也好也是廣義的公務人員也是所謂廣義的這個國家體制他就是公務人員的一部分對對對"},{"start":126.013,"end":154.28,"text":"那老實說他們在比起一般的公務人員來講警消尤其是警消軍警其實對於國家的保護跟幫助是更重要的他們長期站在第一線他們的壓力比別人都來的大老實說我們現在看到我們很多的法制都是選美國那美國也好還是說任何先進國家至少是優等優良的先進國家都對於軍公教警消是給予"},{"start":155.182,"end":155.892,"text":"足夠的照顧的"},{"start":156.636,"end":184.382,"text":"但是很可惜的說真的如果法律通過之後我們行政部門沒有依法執行然後甚至說特地苛扣預算那嚴格講起來對於我們的這個公務人員其實蠻刻薄的不管是哪個黨對於說這個年改政策把退休金一砍再砍我想在座的所有的文官體系文官體系出來的人都會覺得感同身受這是不好的這是不對的"},{"start":185.262,"end":207.285,"text":"尤其是說我剛剛查了一下整個公務員體系在美國的這個整個金額是台灣的三倍到五倍之多但是相對比較起來我們台灣就用這種年改之類的這種年改方式對於這個我們的公務人員無形的苛扣那我是不知道說各位的感覺怎麼樣我是覺得不捨啦"},{"start":208.005,"end":225.999,"text":"因為我的想法一向都是如果我們這個國家要能夠好好運行要能夠正確運行那優質的公務人員不能少但是另外一方面我也想就是直接講如果說預算沒有編那其實難免會讓很多的公務體系的人心寒"},{"start":226.94,"end":250.059,"text":"那同樣的不只是對過去的公務人員對過去的警消對過去的軍人那他們是苛扣的之外其實對新來的人才要進來剛剛我也聽到說市部長在回應這個審發會委員的質詢那其實這公務體系裡面現在變成是說請問一下要報考的人是不是越來越少啦"},{"start":252.539,"end":273.158,"text":"警察整體是整體報告人數受殺死亡影響一定會下降但是警察報告人數目前我們還沒有說不是問題不過消防的部分比較有空缺因為主要是我們的需求量變得很大所以我們考進來的人越來越多入選人"},{"start":274.179,"end":292.813,"text":"儘管有增加但是缺員越來越多因為大家需要更多的人力去執行這個工作然後讓大家不要過勞所以這個部分的需求還沒有辦法完全平衡那整體公務人員呢我也想請教整體公務人員的考試人數是下降中那其實是想算是另外一種的國安危機吧"},{"start":294.292,"end":317.083,"text":"除了人員危機除了少子化危機之外當然跟少子化危機會有一點關係但是最直接的就是說如果我們國家的優秀人才都不願意投身公務系統的時候那會不會導致說我們國家整個行政效率或整個國家整個制度的敗壞呢這算是另外一種的國安危機其實但是我們都選擇性的不看到嗎"},{"start":318.235,"end":338.294,"text":"這個不會說沒有看到不過我想他主要重點的問題是反映在那幾個入局不足額的相關類科就是我們會聚焦在這幾個部分來努力那整體雖然說報考人數有降低但是我想積極想考公務員的人他還是會積極報告就是我們看到很多重複入局啊重複報考甚至辭職再去考就表示說其實還是有"},{"start":339.114,"end":361.074,"text":"熱心想要來這個體系的人還是會很努力的想請問一下目前考試院掌握的最新數據是多少去年報考公務人員的報考人數是多少那整體報考率大概是多少這個我請部長來說明好委員好 公務員報告去年整個公務人員考試報考的是149,130人那錄取是18,413人"},{"start":366.92,"end":391.013,"text":"好那我想請問一下那如果說現在報考人數向低嘛那各方面都在降低那請問一下如果有沒有什麼具體的改革方案我聽說好像前一陣子好像就把我們的國家考試報名費調漲了25%那現在有動漲嗎跟委員報告那因為是考選基金如果不做這個調整的話可能今年底就破產了所以我們也是不得已必須做這樣的調漲"},{"start":392.065,"end":418.395,"text":"那如果在這個前提之下因為考選基金要破產所以我們調高的報名費那我們現在也實質的報考人數在往下降很多那是不是最後面是說一考就上還是說我們就是什麼人才會亂選呢有沒有可能呢跟委員報告目前的入取率大概是百分之二十但是還是要看類科那其實跟委員所關心的大概主要會集中在幾個類科不足額的情況會比較高特別是土木類科"},{"start":419.406,"end":436.713,"text":"土木類課一個類課大概就佔了說不足我的大概的三分之二所以說老實講我為什麼提出謝謝謝謝部長市部長也請回好了不好意思我其實為什麼提出這些問題其實有一個就是一個都只剩下同一個現象就是說當我們的公務人員"},{"start":437.933,"end":460.978,"text":"前面警消他們退休金該撥的沒有撥那我們三讀通過的法案沒有編列預算那其實表面上受害的只是說這些警消退休警消警消人員而已可是實質上全民都在看尤其是下一代的年輕人他們會覺得說講話都不算話我為什麼要進入公務體系"},{"start":463.078,"end":478.464,"text":"當我們公務體系的威信的誠信已經被嚴重去受到挑戰的時候我們怎麼期待說下一代的我們的這些新興學子覺得對於公務這個公務體系還有任何的憧憬有任何的改革方案嗎"},{"start":479.651,"end":507.558,"text":"各位報告那個您提的這個警察人條例修法跟預算編列的問題因為不是考試院職權所以我沒有辦法回應啦那對於您剛剛講說年輕人看到這個退休制度的部分他到底跟他報考的意願有沒有關係我想報考的意願這件事的確有非常多因素不過我要跟您報告就是說現在新進公務人員他適用的是個人專戶制所以我們現在在原來的退服法或者退服法之外的這個警察人條例的修正這個部分其實跟新進人員他們將來自己的"},{"start":508.779,"end":531.235,"text":"退休金的制度其實是脫鉤的是沒有關聯的因為他們已經在採用個人專戶制那個人專戶制它的優點就是說它比較不會出現這個繳少領多然後這個有潛藏債務的問題但它也有相對應的保障它跟我們的勞工制度也是對應的那但是您講的這個報考人數下降的部分當然我們會很重視有沒有具體方案啊老師說因為"},{"start":532.336,"end":546.796,"text":"我們聚焦在幾個真的是比較招募不足的部分我們這個有些部分要從教育資源的投入開始譬如說我們發現前一陣子我們發現就是說圖目人才的確有不足的錄取那它又反映在東部這邊"},{"start":547.957,"end":572.071,"text":"東部的縣市基層他們非常欠缺這個人力所以我們就檢討出說東部這邊其實沒有土木科系的教育高等教育作為他的人力的當地人力的培養的支撐所以我們跟工程會這邊協調我們跨院合作後來我們去協調宜蘭大學到花蓮去設置學分板我想我們在立法院其實如果我們遇到看到這個現象通常不是單純的個案"},{"start":573.852,"end":588.32,"text":"秘書長現在回答是單純個案的改善我講的是整個目前整個現況都是這樣那如果說可以的話你們的改革方案不是只有針對說我們現在講東部縣市土木學科而是明年搞不好還是一樣一堆"},{"start":589.801,"end":604.087,"text":"一堆的缺出來但是不見得有人可以對我剛剛在報告者有講就是說其實就一個年輕人來講我到民間部門我就是地理力表面試也許有考試但是那個考試絕對不會像我們國家考試那麼繁複"},{"start":604.907,"end":618.524,"text":"那年輕人要來進公部門他投注的成本真的很高我們其實調查很多錄取人員平均可能考三年然後在這個被考的期間他可能沒有正職工作他其實賦予非常大的心力很多人是這麼熱衷的就是願意來當動務員但他的確這個門檻很高"},{"start":623.13,"end":645.769,"text":"對 所以您講就是說我們多方面的解決方案包含我們講現在高補考要減課因為我們考試的門檻真的很高所以我們高補考減課也是減輕考生的負擔然後我們讓考試更聚焦核心職能我們希望讓考生在準備的成本不要太高否則他跟四部門求職的成本差距那麼大的話我們也很難去競爭"},{"start":646.935,"end":670.479,"text":"老師講您講的是一套但是老師講不管是說對於這個退休金制度的不公平之外然後還有包括說調漲國家考試因為這個考選基金要破產直接調高25%這其實講的是一套但是做的時候讓民眾有沒有感覺到讓未來的人願不願意投入公務體系我想你們自己會自己感覺最清楚"},{"start":671.359,"end":698.693,"text":"應付國會議員的質詢是一回事實質上現況如何解決又是一回事我會期待說考試院提出一個真正提出一個改革方案一個能夠激勵讓未來年輕人投入公文官體系的一個改革方案謝謝如果有機會的話再跟委員做下面講可以給我至少能調整的方向我會整一下我們對這個部分的做法來給委員做一個書面報告什麼時候要給我呢我想應該"},{"start":701.377,"end":702.963,"text":"一個月?一個月可以 沒有問題好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17283","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17283","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6858ecfe646390efd909919840294916e9b157d0edf07c12ea696b94600f2dd5c095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一)委員何欣純等17人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員王美惠等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員劉建國等16人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員馬文君等20人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員陳俊宇等29人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n三、審查\n(一)\t委員楊瓊瓔等36人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t委員王美惠等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t委員范雲等18人擬具「國民年金法第十五條、第五十條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t委員林倩綺等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t委員張智倫等16人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t委員許宇甄等17人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t委員蘇清泉等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t委員李坤城等20人擬具「國民年金法第十五條、第三十一條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t委員張嘉郡等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t委員林思銘等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)\t委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民年金法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十四)\t委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)\t委員賴士葆等28人擬具「國民年金法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六)\t委員盧縣一等17人擬具「國民年金法第三十一條、第五十三條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十七)\t委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】\n【第三(十)至(十二)案，如經復議則不予審查、第三(十三)至(十七)案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【3月18日及3月19日，二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-03-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-03-19T08:37:03+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-19T11:42:00+08:00","duration":11097,"影片長度":"03:04:57","委員發言時間":"08:37:03 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不好意思徐宇峥委員邱惠璐委員林業群召委黃秀芳委員王振旭委員我們繼續介紹列席官員我們衛生福利部部長石崇良代理市長張玉璇"},{"start":1584.076,"end":1603.429,"text":"蔡安市陳信成 市長蘇昭如專門委員吳枉玉 專門委員陳淑萍專門委員羅瑞紅 財富署科長林一芬勞動部組長烏偉陽 農業部檢任計政郭凱提"},{"start":1611.806,"end":1620.739,"text":"法務部參事江湾男君圆明会处长刘鹤璐科长陈真玲"},{"start":1625.356,"end":1651.827,"text":"先做一下说明本会在115年1月29号上会期第22次委员会议已就委员和新存的17人提案等共計19案已询答完毕本日就新增之行政院提案委员杨卿等36人提案等共18案与上述提案一并审查本日仅就再交付之提案再进行提案说明不另作询答现在请在场委员提案说明"},{"start":1655.8,"end":1676.792,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位委員 各位官員 大家早今天是有關於國民年金法部分條文的修正草案本席在這提案說明"},{"start":1677.697,"end":1707.197,"text":"也因應台灣近期面臨嚴重的物價通膨的影響許多民眾真實的經濟能力與生活品質已經大受影響所以今天我們國民年金要來去做一個修正那國民年金開辦至今已經超過第17年社會家庭的形態已大幅的變遷就有的排富標準跟年金給付的金額已經難以滿足許多一般民眾跟弱勢民眾的老年經濟需求"},{"start":1707.917,"end":1734.275,"text":"所以今天我們首先針對第15條第50條現行法強制要求配偶必須負擔連帶繳納保費的義務甚至對於沒有幫忙繳這個年金的配偶處以罰還這已經忽視了夫妻財產獨立的精神也對於如果是分居或準備離婚的夫妻造成不合理的負擔衍生出懲罰婚姻的爭議"},{"start":1735.765,"end":1755.056,"text":"未落實性別平權本次修法將全面廢除配偶連帶繳費的義務與相關罰則免除因結婚而受罰的疑慮其次第31條的修法我們排除排付標準也進行修正因國內的民生物價攀升以及"},{"start":1756.116,"end":1770.522,"text":"就有的排富標準一不符合現況為了反映真實的情況本期也建議放寬排富標準將綜合所得稅從總額門檻50萬提高至60萬土地及房屋價值門檻也從500萬大幅調升到1225萬元那我們也會 這很重點來了我們也將勞保基本"},{"start":1779.446,"end":1806.783,"text":"的保證年金由3,500元調升至5,000元身輕障礙基本保證年金從4,700元調升至6,715元來實質來保障民眾的基本生活最後為了來這個強化通膨的抗通膨能力我們在第54條之一增加了其中檢討機制未來在法定的4年調整期內只要"},{"start":1807.823,"end":1834.925,"text":"兩年內的消費者物價指數CPI 成長到3%我們即將立即啟動這個給付金額的調整不用再估等四年此外對新制給付的增訂的每年必須要在國內居住滿123天的要件確保國家的資源能夠真正用在需要照顧的民眾以上提案敬請各位委員同仁支持 以上謝謝謝謝張志龍委員接下來請徐理政委員說明"},{"start":1853.378,"end":1881.127,"text":"謝謝主席 各位大家好我想本席今天特別針對國民年金法第54條之一的修正草案的提案說明近年來由於國內的物價持續的上漲民眾對生活的成本增加相當的有感尤其是食品醫療交通跟日常的照護支出幾乎樣樣都漲對一般的家庭來說已經很吃重更何況是原本就仰賴年金維持基本生活的長者以及因身心障礙額外"},{"start":1882.307,"end":1901.134,"text":"照顧需求的弱勢朋友來說更是雪上加霜本席這次的修法呢主要是將我們的這個老年年金給付加計金額跟老年基本保障年金的金額從3,500塊提升到7,000元因為以現在的物價水準平均"},{"start":1901.774,"end":1921.942,"text":"三千五百塊平均一天大概走一百出頭如何要求一個長者用這樣的金額去維持晚年的這個尊嚴呢因此我們主張從三千五百塊調整到七千元那同時呢我們也不能忽略這個身心障礙朋友的處境所以本席將身心障礙年金幾本的"},{"start":1922.842,"end":1950.09,"text":"保障以及身心障礙基本保障年金同步調升至新台幣8000元給予他們最基本的經濟安全網除此之外呢本席也將現行每四年調整一次的機制改為每兩年調整一次因為物價上漲不會等人弱勢的生活困境更不可能四年才檢討一次最重要的是我們也新增一項合理的機制就是當消費者物價指數累積成長達5%的時候即應公告"},{"start":1952.771,"end":1973.974,"text":"调整我们希望化被动为主动及时的制度回应不会让民众已经撑不下去了连基本的生活都受冲击了政府才慢慢的需要检讨而国民年金的制度初衷就是为了要照顾那些没有劳保公保跟军保的民众他们往往是社会结构最脆弱的一群"},{"start":1974.514,"end":1999.928,"text":"所以我們的法律不能隨著時代環境跟物價指數的與時俱進的話那這份保障就會流於形式所以為了讓國民年金更符合現實讓弱勢保障真正能跟上時代本席懇請各位委員支持本案共同為長者及弱勢撐起更有尊嚴更有溫度的安全網謝謝謝謝徐醫生委員接下來請廖偉祥委員發言"},{"start":2010.775,"end":2027.112,"text":"謝謝盧憲義召委感謝你特別排這個案子那在場的媒體先生女士還有我們的同仁以及我們各部會的這個公務體系的行政同仁們大家早安那本席針對國民年金法的修正草案提出說明"},{"start":2028.173,"end":2037.556,"text":"國民年金制度自民國97年實施至今是為了保障為就業的民眾的老年基本生活然而隨著這近17年國內薪資水平不動產價值與物價情勢的劇烈變遷"},{"start":2044.618,"end":2056.586,"text":"我想現行的法規已經顯得力不從心必須進行全盤的檢討所以本席此次修正的重點分為下面三個面向因為這段時間以來其實10年前到現在我想貧富差距也從前5%跟後5%也從75倍變到150倍那所以這個是"},{"start":2065.444,"end":2080.796,"text":"非常急迫的事情所以三大面向第一個面向是強化給付水準落實動態的調整機制那依據主計總處的數據112年的消費者物價指數CPI年增率為2.5%已經連續兩年超過通膨警戒線而且最近我看國際情勢如此這個通膨的壓力也越來越大"},{"start":2089.423,"end":2114.054,"text":"所以現行每4年調整一次的機制是完全跟不上物價的漲幅導致弱勢族群的實質購買力也嚴重縮水影響到他們的基本生活因此本席提案修正第54條之一將老年年金給付的基準調升至8000元身障年金保障至12000元同時也將調整這個頻率希望可以縮短成"},{"start":2115.074,"end":2134.441,"text":"去檢討一次一年一條讓年金給付能夠更及時的反映通膨的壓力也確保社會安全網能夠實質發揮這個救貧的功能那第二因應物價的波動修正排富的門檻現行的制度下許多長者僅因為土地的公告"},{"start":2135.041,"end":2154.499,"text":"限职调生就莫名其妙的丧失了领取的资格那这并非是长者的收入增加而是制度没有随着经济现状的调整所以因此本席提案修正第31条要参照老农津贴的门槛将所得额提高至60万"},{"start":2155.7,"end":2163.725,"text":"那土地房這個房屋的價值門檻提高到1025萬喔並且增訂動態調整機制那我們也不能夠讓這個房價的漲幅變成長者的生存威脅應該確保制度與時俱進守護長者的財產尊嚴第三要廢除這個"},{"start":2175.331,"end":2179.555,"text":"懲罰婚姻的配偶連帶處罰那現行法的第15條以及第50條規定配偶須負擔連帶繳費的義務且未繳費者會受罰這已經引起社會嚴重的詬病那目前的被保險人未繳費無罰則配偶卻要受罰這不僅是違背了民法夫妻財產分離的原則"},{"start":2199.175,"end":2212.393,"text":"本質上更形同對於婚姻的處罰和懲罰那本席提案刪除這個配偶強制處罰規定那將制度由強制克罰轉向正向鼓勵那也考量到政府財政負擔的可預測性"},{"start":2214.795,"end":2240.242,"text":"並預留資訊系統開發時間由行政院另訂實行日期希望本次的修法讓國保制度可以跟上時代也懇請各位委員同仁支持本案讓國民年金真正成為支撐國人老年尊嚴及弱勢族群的堅實後盾謝謝大家謝謝廖惠祥委員說明接下來請邱惠祿委員代表民政黨提案說明"},{"start":2245.063,"end":2251.138,"text":"主席各位委員同仁還有各位政府部門的同仁大家好我們台灣民眾黨根據"},{"start":2253.931,"end":2276.816,"text":"三個條文來提出修法的一個提案建議那首先是針對國民年金法第15條第二項的規定那我想憲法保障一個平等原則所謂平等原則就是相同的事情做相同的處理不同的事情做不同的處理如果相同的事情要為差別待遇"},{"start":2277.336,"end":2300.103,"text":"要有合理正當的理由要有合理關聯性而且不能夠自以為之如果沒有合理正當的理由自以為之的話就會違反憲法第7條的平等原則那國民年金法第15條第二項因為關於保費的繳納規定了夫妻之間彼此互相負一個連帶繳納的責任那這樣的一個"},{"start":2303.685,"end":2322.103,"text":"規定我們認為是以婚姻關係的有無作為差別待遇的一個理由那這個情況之下我們認為有違反合理正當理由的原則有違反合理關聯性的原則所以我們認為違反平等原則所以我們在這邊建議應該把15條第二項做一個刪除"},{"start":2325.686,"end":2329.748,"text":"那除此之外國民年金法第50條23項關於保費的繳納夫妻之間彼此連帶的要去繳納這個相關費用的一個連帶責任那如果你要繳納這個保費的話"},{"start":2342.774,"end":2360.969,"text":"就會被處以3000到1.5萬的罰款那這樣的一個規定其實也是以婚姻關係的有無作為裁罰的基礎事實我們也認為欠缺合理關聯性欠缺合理理由所以我們認為違反平等原則所以也建議把第五十條的二三項來做一個刪除那我想"},{"start":2364.892,"end":2378.661,"text":"15條第2項第50條23項刪除也能夠落實4至696號解釋的意旨4至696號解釋的意旨就是禁止以婚姻關係的有無作為承受特別不利益的基礎事實"},{"start":2379.682,"end":2407.656,"text":"好那接著我們來講國民年金法第54條之一那我想如同剛剛很多委員先進已經提到了國民年金從101年到現在經過了十幾年都沒有與時俱進的修正那這15年當中歷經了通膨物價指數的調整還有多次的調薪其實會讓這些國民年金的領取人他們的實質購買力已經大大的降低所以為了讓國民年金的這個"},{"start":2408.696,"end":2433.952,"text":"相關金額的給付能夠與時俱進符合這個消費者物價指數通膨調薪等等這些因素我們主張把國民年金的一個調整的實現從4年縮短為2年那這個是參照農民的退休儲金條例那除此之外也參照勞保條例就是根據消費者物價指數來做一個調整如果消費者物價指數的成長率達到"},{"start":2437.655,"end":2455.553,"text":"5%也是啟動調整的一個機制跟時程那台灣民眾黨根據這三條分別是第15條第二項第50條23項還有第51條規定來提案修法那也希望各位委員同仁能夠予以支持以上說明謝謝謝謝邱輝祿委員說明接下來請范雲維說明"},{"start":2469.377,"end":2488.811,"text":"主席大家好那我的提案呢基本上跟政院版本一樣因為要先肯定一下就是衛福部還有相關的部會我想國民年金這次的調整意義重大因為我們可以看到就是政府照顧這些就是沒有勞保沒有各種保險的那對我來講的話我長期關心婦女的議題我知道在國民年金這一塊其實非常多的"},{"start":2495.996,"end":2506.039,"text":"家庭主婦他基本上是保國民年金那這次我們可以看到我自己的版本就是從4049元調高到5000元那這個大家算一下條幅大概有25%那我覺得這個版本就整體來講的話已經算是最高的調整而且不會讓政府"},{"start":2520.745,"end":2545.187,"text":"舉債就是過高那所以也希望大家能夠支持我的這個部分的版本那另外我的部分呢也有針對過去不合理的那個配偶連帶責任就是做修正那我想這個部分現代就是配偶大家每一個人都是獨立的人那不管是男性女性就是先生或者是"},{"start":2548.229,"end":2565.096,"text":"先生的另外一個是太太 OK 一下忘記這個稱呼我想大家都是獨立的人不要因為一邊沒有就懲罰另外一邊所以這邊我的部分跟原本一樣我覺得這是一個社會的進步也是一個時代的進步"},{"start":2565.976,"end":2585.314,"text":"最後大家可以看到就排富的標準的部分我的部分也是能夠修正稍微放寬那我自己的理念其實一向都是政府的福利不需要過度排富因為過度排富其實會讓腳比較多碎的人那當然我們這個是保險制不太一樣"},{"start":2585.774,"end":2614.598,"text":"就是會覺得他好像沒有辦法得到相關的社會福利普及是我認為最好所以關於這個國民年金的保險有在排付的部分稍微放寬一點我覺得也能夠做到一個整體照顧的精神因為大家知道在台灣不同的縣市那個所謂的房屋或是土地的計算是不一樣的那可能有人在主產或等等但事實上他的家庭狀況或是老年的部分"},{"start":2614.998,"end":2629.514,"text":"是有可能需要政府的一起照顾那我想这是一个国民年金共同的一个相互照顾的精神那可以在这部分稍微放宽那也请大家支持我的版本那就先简单说明到这谢谢"},{"start":2640.888,"end":2666.187,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天大院審查國民年金包含行政院版本以及共有37位委員分別提出的不同的版本進行審查非常感謝我們就整個條文的修正來做一些報告"},{"start":2667.088,"end":2686.24,"text":"那麼為了回應當前的經濟成長物價指數及人民眾的生活的需求所以行政院特別指示那麼在照顧國民生活保護弱勢生計跟兼顧國家財政的三大原則下就八大"},{"start":2687.1,"end":2705.89,"text":"社福津貼來進行全面性的檢討包括了老農福利津貼國民年金給付低收入戶的家庭生活補助低收入戶的兒童生活補助低收入戶的就學生活補助還有中低收入老人的生活津貼"},{"start":2706.65,"end":2732.684,"text":"弱勢而少的生活輔助及身障者的生活補助等那麼做橫貧性的考量那麼今天主要是國民年金的部分條文的修正草案那麼本部的這個版本主要有四大重點那麼第一個就是刪除強制配偶代繳保費及罰款的規定來彰顯性別平等的精神"},{"start":2733.244,"end":2748.206,"text":"符合憲法的精神那麼第二呢是放寬排富的基準那麼參照了這個其他條文其他的法規包含腦容津貼的調整標準把所得調高為"},{"start":2749.307,"end":2767.302,"text":"牌付所得調高為60萬不動產則調高為1025萬那麼並刪除呢那麼唯一自住的房屋可以作為扣除額的上限那麼這個是第二個那第三個呢是調高基本數23.5%由現行的每月4049元調高為5000元身帳呢則調為6715元那第四個呢是建立這個"},{"start":2778.05,"end":2795.056,"text":"定期調整的機制那麼並且增訂CPI如果這個浮動超過3%則進行期中檢討那麼至於重整目前各個委員的修法的提案版本那麼主要在"},{"start":2796.056,"end":2822.639,"text":"國保給付的基本數額的部分呢那麼調整的範圍從4500元到12000元身障者年金條的範圍則從5700元至12000元之間那麼同時呢在這個放寬排付標準的部分呢那麼大致上的版本是一致那麼另外在這個縮短這個調整的"},{"start":2824.92,"end":2846.169,"text":"年金檢討的年限的部分則是分為一年到三年另外在CPI調整的部分也有2%到5%不等的調整機制那麼這些待會在這個主條討論的時候我們本部再來表示這個意見那至於說在"},{"start":2847.169,"end":2868.147,"text":"這個配偶連帶處分的部分呢我想這個部分有朝野各立委的高度共識予以刪除那另外還有這個部分委員那麼提高呢這個商帳給付一次發給10個月的投保金額比照勞保的部分呢那待會我們也會來保釋意見那不過呢重上而言呢"},{"start":2868.547,"end":2892.575,"text":"那麼這一次的各委員的版本呢那麼其實最大的歧異呢是在老人年金的加計跟基本保障遺主年金原住民給付的部分那麼影響到的財政呢那麼大概從156億每年到653億這個須要增加那麼要增加一年增加到這個"},{"start":2895.392,"end":2915.766,"text":"這個近千億到900多億那麼我想在兼顧這個國家的財政可負擔跟世代的公平正義的原則之下那麼希望在待會的主條討論的時候能夠充分的獲得一些共識 儘快的讓"},{"start":2918.928,"end":2945.484,"text":"這個對於國民照顧的美意能夠盡快的落實那麼以上的報告謝謝各位委員謝謝副部長做以下宣告巡禮本日不處理臨時提案有關本次會議各項書面資料經列入紀錄刊登公報現在請議事人員宣讀提案條文內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":2950.41,"end":2977.879,"text":"国民联金法部分条文修正草案行政院提案委员何兴纯等17人提案委员邱振军等17人提案委员王美惠等18人提案委员刘建国等16人提案委员马文君等20人提案委员徐巧兴等18人提案台湾民众党党团提案委员邱振军等21人提案委员陈俊宇等29人提案台湾民众党党团提案委员黄秀芳等21人提案委员罗廷伟等16人提案民进党党团提案"},{"start":2979.039,"end":3007.302,"text":"委員蔡玉等17人提案委員吳思耀等18人提案委員郭國文等17人提案委員王美惠等29人提案委員徐富貴等18人提案委員陳廷飛等16人提案委員楊瓊穎等36人提案委員王美惠等17人提案委員鄭天才等17人提案委員范雲等18人提案委員林倩琦等18人提案委員張志倫等16人提案委員徐宇珍等17人提案委員廖偉翔等18人提案委員蘇清泉等19人提案"},{"start":3008.283,"end":3033.46,"text":"委員李坤成等20人提案委員張家俊等17人提案委員林思敏等19人提案委員邱振均等19人提案委員邱振均等19人提案委員賴世保等28人提案委員盧鑫一等17人提案委員羅廷偉等18人提案及現行法條文對照表行政院提案第15條無利一次繳納保險費及"},{"start":3038.564,"end":3056.984,"text":"利息之被保險人得向保險人申請分期或延期繳納其申請條件審核程序分期或延期繳納期限及其他應遵行事項之辦法由保險人擬定報請中央主管機關核定發布本保險之保險費其利息於被保險及其配偶間互付連帶繳納之義務"},{"start":3059.827,"end":3087.188,"text":"委員邱正軍等17人提案 同委員邱正軍等21人提案第15條軍刪除現行法條文第二項與同現行法委員楊瓊穎等36人提案 團民眾黨黨團提案委員王美惠等17人提案 委員鄭天才等17人提案委員張志倫等16人提案 委員范雲等18人提案委員廖偉祥等18人提案 委員張家俊等17人提案委員羅廷偉等18人提案 委員李坤誠等20人提案第15條軍與行政院提案 同"},{"start":3089.448,"end":3111.94,"text":"民進黨黨團提案及委員吳思耀等十八人提案第三十條相同均修正第四項默劇為所需經費依第三十六條規定辦理與同現行法文蔡宜與等十六人提案及委員陳廷飛等十六人提案同第三十條均修正第一項第一款默劇為八千元第二項第二款默二行為八千元與與現行法同"},{"start":3112.941,"end":3124.696,"text":"委員王美惠等二十人提案第30條修正第一項第一款墨具為一萬元第二項第二款墨二行為一萬元於同縣刑法行政院提案第31條"},{"start":3128.007,"end":3143.332,"text":"修正第一項第五款金額數字為1025萬第二項第二款為屬個人所有之唯一且實際居住之房屋及該房屋座落之土地同時增列第三項第一項第四款鎖定個人綜合所得稅各類"},{"start":3144.392,"end":3167.041,"text":"所得总额与第五款个人所有之土地及房屋价值有中央主管机关并同第五四条之一第一项后段规定以下列方式调整后公告之一个人综合所得税各类所得总额参照中央主机机关发布之最近一年消费者物价指数较前次调整之前一年消费者物价指数成长率"},{"start":3167.941,"end":3193.906,"text":"但成長率為零或負數時不予調整二個人所得土地及房屋價值參照中央地政機關發布之全國前一年公告土地限值較前次調整之前一年公告土地限值條幅以該條幅所計算個人所有土地及房屋價值之增加數額乘以1.5倍後調整之但條幅為零或負數時不予調整與同現行法"},{"start":3195.441,"end":3211.178,"text":"委員蔡宇等16人提案及委員陳廷飛等16人提案同第31條均修正第一項第7行金額數字為8000元餘銅現行法委員王美惠等22人提案第31條修正第一項第7行金額數字為12000元餘銅現行法"},{"start":3214.11,"end":3230.795,"text":"委員楊瓊英等36人提案 委員張志倫等16人提案 委員張家俊等17人提案 委員李坤城等20人提案 第31條 均與行政院提案同委員王美惠等17人提案與委員羅廷偉等18人提案 同第31條 除第二項第二款為"},{"start":3234.593,"end":3253.838,"text":"屬個人所有之唯一房屋且實際居住之房屋及該房屋座落之土地予以行政院提案通文正天才等17人提案第31條除第1項第5款金額數字為1200萬元予以行政院提案通文亮偉翔等18人提案第31條除第1項第4款第3行"},{"start":3254.878,"end":3278.099,"text":"修正金額數字為60萬元與委員王美惠等17人提案同委員邱振軍等19人提案第31條刪除委員王美惠等17人提案第三項與委員王美惠等17人提案同委員盧憲義等17人提案第31條修正第一項第三款增列默劇但依原住民保留地禁法補償條例領取之補償金不在此限"},{"start":3278.819,"end":3301.967,"text":"及第1項第4款增列默劇但原住民族土地進法補償金不計入資與同現行法民進黨黨團提案及委員吳思堯等18人提案同第34條都修正第4項默劇為所需經費依第36條規定辦理與同現行法民進黨黨團提案及委員吳思堯提案第36條同第36條"},{"start":3307.967,"end":3334.294,"text":"第30條老人年金之差額第31條第一項老人基本保證年金第34條身心障礙年金之差額第35條第一項身心障礙基本保證年金及第42條遺囑年金之差額所需經費依行政院主計總署公布之各直轄市及縣市政府財力分級表由各級政府按比率負擔1財力分級表第一級者由中央主管機關及直轄市主管機關各負擔50%"},{"start":3336.943,"end":3363.676,"text":"二 財力分級表第二級及第三級者由中央主管機關負擔70%之下市及縣市主管機關負擔30%三 財力分級表第四級及第五級者由中央主管機關負擔85%縣市主管機關負擔15%委員蔡宇等16人提案委員王美惠等20人提案委員陳廷飛等16人提案第39條軍統軍委修正第一項第二項末發給10個月商帳給付"},{"start":3367.062,"end":3395.917,"text":"民進黨黨團提案及委員吳思堯等18人提案第42條同均修正第四項默劇為所需經費一第36條規定辦理於同縣刑法民進黨黨團提案及委員吳思堯等18人提案第47條同修正第一項第三行依序由下列來源籌措之應其有節於時應作為以後年度中央政府責任準備於同縣刑法"},{"start":3399.744,"end":3403.457,"text":"行政院提案第50條刪除現行法第二及第三項"},{"start":3405.236,"end":3429.261,"text":"委員楊瓊英等36人提案委員邱振軍等21人提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員王美惠等17人提案委員鄭天才等17人提案委員張志倫等16人提案委員范雲等18人提案委員廖偉翔等18人提案委員張家俊等17人提案委員羅廷偉等18人提案委員李坤城的20人提案委員賴世保的28人提案據行政院提案同"},{"start":3430.851,"end":3442.014,"text":"委員盧縣議等17人提案第53條修正第一項第4款增列莫具依原住民保留地進法補償條例領取之補償金亦不計入與同現行法"},{"start":3444.724,"end":3464.97,"text":"行政院提案第54條之一自中華民國圈年圈月圈日修正之條文施行之日起頒發所定老年年金及附加計金額老年基本保證年金第30條第二項第三款第二目及第31條第一項第二款第一目按月累計金額"},{"start":3465.99,"end":3493.816,"text":"第42條第二項及第4項及第53條所定金額調整為新台幣5000元身心障礙年金及付基本保障及身心障礙基本保證年金之金額調整為新台幣6715元其後每4年調整一次由中央主管機關參照中央主計機關發布之最近一年消費者物價指數較前次調整之前一年消費者物價指數成長率公告調整之"},{"start":3494.696,"end":3510.248,"text":"但成長率為零或負數時不予調整中央主管機關因依前項規定調整屆滿二年後檢討一次與中央主計機關發布之最近一年消費者物價指數較前次調整之前一年消費者物價指數成長率達30%"},{"start":3512.55,"end":3533.221,"text":"因即時公告調整不受前項四年之限制,符合下列規定者,使依前二項所定基本數額調整。但中華民國全年、全月、全日修正之條文施行前,已符合勤領資格者不適用之。一、在國內設有戶籍。二、最近三年內每年居住國內超過183日。"},{"start":3538.73,"end":3554.421,"text":"為核心存等事件提案第54條之一自第九行巨莫增列除中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達50%及英語調整外其餘每三年調整一次與同現行法"},{"start":3555.222,"end":3580.856,"text":"文秋政軍等17人提案第54條之一首居第二行改為113年第6行金額改為4000元第9行改為5200元期後每3年調整一次與同現行法文王美惠等18人提案第54條之一除第12行修改為中央主管機關應給予調整外與委員何新淳等17人提案同"},{"start":3581.676,"end":3600.572,"text":"文流建國等16人提案及委員黃秀芳等21人提案同第54條之一同第9行據末期修正為其後每三年調整一次由中央主管機關參照中央主計機關發布至最近一年消費者物價指數較前次調整之前一年消費者物價指數成長率"},{"start":3601.693,"end":3625.809,"text":"或消费者物价指数累计成长率达5%及公告调整之于同现行法为马文君等20人提案第五四条之一第六行金额改为4500元第九行金额改为5700元其后每一年调整一次于同现行法文徐巧心等18人提案第五四条之一第十行改为其后每年调整一次于同现行法"},{"start":3628.755,"end":3654.171,"text":"委員楊瓊英等36人提案委員鄭天才等17人提案委員張志倫等16人提案委員范雲等18人提案委員張家俊等17人提案第五四條之一均與行政院提案同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第五四條之一首聚第二行改為113年第六行金額改為5000元第九行改為6200元其後每兩年調整一次第十四行增列"},{"start":3655.091,"end":3676.464,"text":"或消费者物价指数累计成长率达5%及公告调整之于同现行法文成军与等29人提案第五四条之一第九行据莫增列除中央组织机关发布之消费者物价指数累计成长率达50%中央主管机关应给予调整外其后每两年调整一次于同现行法"},{"start":3677.344,"end":3700.18,"text":"委員羅廷偉等16人提案第五四條之一第十行修改為其後每三年調整一次第十四行據莫增列或消費者物價指數累計成長率達百分之五及與同現行法委員王美惠等16人提案第五四條之一第二行刪除修正之條文施行之日第九行金額改為七千元第十二行金額"},{"start":3701.616,"end":3710.355,"text":"改為八千七百元予以行政院提案同委員郭國文等十七人提案及委員徐富奎等十八人提案第五四條之一同"},{"start":3711.832,"end":3735.599,"text":"手巨第二行改為115年第四行金額改為4500元第七行金額改為8000元第十行金額改為9000元同時增列第二項第三項文字為依第30條第一項計算之老年年金金額不足新台幣8000元者按新台幣8000元發給前二項所需經費或與原計算年金金額之差額"},{"start":3737.299,"end":3756.286,"text":"由中央及地方主管机关平均分摊按年度编列预算指引其后每三年调整一次于同现行法为林倩琪等18人提案第五四条之一首居第二行改为115年第六行积乐改为5000元第九行改为6715元其后每三年调整一次"},{"start":3757.486,"end":3777.624,"text":"同时增列第二项中央主机机关发布至最近一年消费者物价指数较前次调整之前一年消费者物价指数成长率达30%因及时公告调整不受前项三年之限制与同现行法文须一针的17人提案第五四条之一首居第二行改为115年第六行金额改为7000元"},{"start":3779.085,"end":3789.176,"text":"第九行改為八千元其後每二年調整一次第十四行據莫增列或消費者物價指數累計成長率達百分之五及公告調整之與同現行法"},{"start":3792.318,"end":3815.607,"text":"文殊清泉等19人提案第五四条之一首居第一行改为圈年圈月圈日起第六行积额改为8000元第九行改为1万元其后每二年调整一次并增列第二项中央组织机关发布至最近一年消费者物价指数价前次调整之前一年消费者物价指数成长率达30%及公告调整不受前项二年之限制于同现行法"},{"start":3817.014,"end":3842.123,"text":"文調偉祥等18人提案第五四條之一第六行金額改為八千元第九行改為一萬二千元其後每年調整一次與同縣刑法委員林思敏等19人提案第五四條之一首居第一行改為圈年圈月圈日修正之條文施行之日起第五行增列第三十條第二項第三款第二目及第三十一條第一項第二款第一目按月累計金額第九行金額改為六千元"},{"start":3843.143,"end":3860.744,"text":"第十二行改為八千元期後每二年調整一次並增列第二項於中央主計機關發布之最近一年消費者物價指數較前次調整之前一年消費者物價指數成長率達百分之三十因即時公告調整不受前向二年制限制與同現行法"},{"start":3861.525,"end":3883.254,"text":"原秋正均等19人提案第五四条之一首居第二行改为115年第六行金额改为6000元第九行改为7200元其后每三年调整一次并增列第二项中央主管机关应于前项规定调整届满二年后检讨一次与中央组织机关发布至最近一年消费者物价指数较前次调整之前一年消费者物价指数成长率达30%"},{"start":3884.935,"end":3905.84,"text":"因即使公告调整不受前项4年之限制与同现行法本读先一等17人提案第五四条之一第六行金额改为7000元第九行改为1万元其后每两年调整一次并正列第二项装足迹机关发布之最近一年消费者物价指数较前次调整之前一年消费者物价指数"},{"start":3906.9,"end":3915.686,"text":"成長率80%因即時公告調整不受前項兩年之限制與同現行法委員何清純等17人提案第55條增列第4項及第5項"},{"start":3920.011,"end":3944.228,"text":"被保险人于符合本法相关给付勤领药件时,得依第15条第1项向保险人申请未预补缴期限之保费分期缴纳,其相关本席于被保险人勤领保险给付时,禁于扣减之。前项有关扣减保费给付之种类、方式及金额等事项之办法由中央主管机关定之,于同现行法。"},{"start":3948.789,"end":3968.151,"text":"行政院提案第59條第二項修正為本法修正條文自公佈日施行但中華民國100年6月29日修正公佈至第7條第二款第三款及第30條第二項第三款自97年10月1日施行第6條第4款第13條第一項"},{"start":3973.382,"end":3996.893,"text":"其第三項即 全年全月全日修正之條文之施行日期由行政院定之 與同現行法委員蔡易瑜等16人提案委員王美惠等20人提案委員陳廷飛等16人提案第59條均同均增列第三項本法中華民國全年全月全日修正條文之施行日期由行政院定之 與同現行法"},{"start":3997.873,"end":4016.992,"text":"委員王美惠等17人提案第59條除第2項第2行增列除字第2項第8行改為由行政院定之者外自公佈日施行與行政院提案同委員鄭天才等17人提案為廖偉強等18人提案為羅廷偉等18人提案第59條均與行政院提案同"},{"start":4017.873,"end":4045.361,"text":"文章制論等16人提案第59條第二項第一行起修正為本法修正條文自公佈日施行但中華民國及第七行起修正為逗號及圈年圈月圈日修正條文之施行日起由行政院定之與同現行法我開始念不是要紅五年嗎我有跟他講啊沒關係我來念"},{"start":4051.756,"end":4071.868,"text":"接著宣讀修正動議修正動議第一案第36條第30條老年年金之差額第31條第一項老年年金保證金第34條身心障礙年金之差額"},{"start":4073.274,"end":4093.301,"text":"第35條第1項身心障礙基本保證年金第42條已屬年金之差額所需經費依行政院主計總署公布之各職場市及縣市政府財力分級表由各級政府按比率負擔依"},{"start":4094.074,"end":4118.353,"text":"財力分級表第一者由中央主管機關及直轄市主管機關各負擔50%二財力分級表第二級及第三級者由中央主管機關負擔70%直轄市及縣市主管機關負擔30%三財力分級表第四級及第五級者由中央主管機關負擔85%縣市主管機關負擔15%提案人"},{"start":4123.817,"end":4125.098,"text":"第15條 無力一次繳納保險費及利息支備保險"},{"start":4144.107,"end":4169.606,"text":"被保險人得向保險人申請分期或延期繳納其申請條件審核程序分期或延期繳納期限及其他應遵行事項之辦法由保險人擬定報請中央主管機關核定發布本保險之保險費及其利息與被保險人及其配偶間互付連帶繳納之義務第30條"},{"start":4174.133,"end":4202.245,"text":"勤領年金老人年金幾負1下列方式則由寄給1月頭保金額乘以其保險年金再乘以百分之0.65所得之數額加新台幣五千元2月頭保月頭保金額乘以其保險年資再乘以百分之1.2所得之數額有下列之情形之一者計算"},{"start":4204.892,"end":4221.229,"text":"第31條本法施行時年滿65歲國民在國內設有戶籍且於最近三年內每年居住超過183日而無下列事項之情勢者是同"},{"start":4222.19,"end":4246.893,"text":"本法被保險人得清理老年基本保證年金每月新台幣五千元至死亡為止不是用本章第三節至第五節有關保險給付之規定亦不受第二章被保險人及保險效力及第三章保險費規定之限制依經政府權額補助收容安置"},{"start":4247.373,"end":4256.45,"text":"二、领取军人退休奉、终身生活补助费、政务人员、公教人员、公营失业人员退休金"},{"start":4258.24,"end":4286.197,"text":"退休值金或一次退休值五金但有下列情形之一者不在此限一 軍人 政務人員 公教人員 公營事業人員領取一次退休值五金且未辦理政府優惠存款者未領取公教人員保險養老給付或軍人保險退屋給付或領取公教人員保險養老給付"},{"start":4288.198,"end":4310.387,"text":"軍人保險退伍給付之總額自年滿65歲當月起以新台幣5000元按月累計8元總數而原住民領取一次退職5金而領取社會福利津貼"},{"start":4314.368,"end":4323.754,"text":"4.財稅機關提供保險人公告年度之個人綜合所得稅各類所得總額合計新台幣60萬元以上5."},{"start":4323.754,"end":4333.22,"text":"個人所有之土地及房屋價值合計新台幣1025萬元以上6."},{"start":4333.22,"end":4339.364,"text":"入獄服刑一案即押或拘禁前項第五款土地之價值"},{"start":4340.066,"end":4363.426,"text":"以公告土地限值計算房屋之價值以平定標準價格計算但有下列情形之一者應扣除一土地之部分或全部被依法編為公共設施保留地且因政府財務或其他不可規則於地主之因素而尚未徵收及補償者二"},{"start":4366.432,"end":4381.494,"text":"屬於個人所有之一且實際居住之房屋及該房屋座落之土地三未經產生經濟效益之原住民保留地第一項第四款鎖定個人綜合所得"},{"start":4382.987,"end":4401.772,"text":"所得稅各類所得總額及第五款個人所有之土地及房屋價值由中央主管並同第五十四條之一第一項後段規定依下列方式調整公告之一個人綜合所得稅各類所得總額參照中央"},{"start":4403.84,"end":4420.559,"text":"主計機關發布之最近一年消費者物價指數較前次調整之前一年消費者物價指數成長率但成長率為零或複數時不予調整二個人所有土地或房屋價值"},{"start":4421.42,"end":4442.902,"text":"參考中央地政機關發布之全國前一年公告土地限值較前次調整之前一年公告土地限值條幅以該條幅所計算個人所有土地及房屋價值之增加數額乘以1.5倍後調整之半條幅為零或複數時不予調整"},{"start":4445.271,"end":4456.816,"text":"與本條中華民國100年6月13日修正之條文施行前依地向第二款第一目規定累計以達原理"},{"start":4458.079,"end":4475.416,"text":"領取總額者不予發老人基本保證年金中華民國101年1月1日起願意領取老年基本保證年金者與各地方政府調整土地公告限職後仍符合第一項第一款至第四款"},{"start":4476.236,"end":4494.722,"text":"規定及第六款規定且其個人所有之土地及房屋衛生真實不受第一項第五款規定之限制身心障礙基本保障年金及第53條所定於原住民及父異同第34條身心障礙"},{"start":4497.537,"end":4523.638,"text":"年金給付其保險年資計算每滿一年愛奇投保金額發給1.3%之月給付金額依前項規定計算所得數額如低於基本保障新台幣6,715元且無下列各項情勢者得按月發給基本保障至死亡為止"},{"start":4525.578,"end":4553.109,"text":"一有欠繳保險費期間不計入保險年資請示二領取相關社會福利津貼被保險人於發生保險事故前一年期間之保險費或利息有欠繳情形經保險人以書面命其繳納欲其使為繳納者其依法得領取前三個月身心障礙年金給付得案第一項規定即"},{"start":4554.947,"end":4572.426,"text":"計算發給不是用前項基本保障新台幣六千七百十五元之規定一第二第二項規定請理基本保障者其一第一項計算所得數額與基本保障之差額由中央主管機關負擔"},{"start":4574.892,"end":4591.699,"text":"被保险人具有劳工保险年资者得于第一项之保险年资予以并计其所需金额由劳工保险保险人拨还第42条遗熟年金给付"},{"start":4592.786,"end":4620.735,"text":"標準如下一被保險人死亡一被保險人之保險年資合計每滿一年按其月投保金額發給百分之1.3之月給付金額二領取身心障礙年金或老人死亡老人年金給付期間死亡按被保險人身心障礙年金或老人年金金額之半數發給三符合地"},{"start":4621.806,"end":4627.625,"text":"二十九條規定而為及情侶老人年金及負前死亡"},{"start":4629.551,"end":4654.067,"text":"一被保险人之被保险年资合计每满一年按其月投保金额发给1.3%之月几付金额半数一前项规定计算之年金金额不足新台币5000元者按新台币5000元发给同一顺序之遗嘱有两人以上时每多一人发给遗嘱年金几付标准之25%最多计至50%"},{"start":4658.154,"end":4683.868,"text":"依第二項規定改案新台幣五十元五千元計算以主年金給付者其原依第一項及前項規定計算所得數額與實際領取年金給付之差額由中央主管機關負擔第五十條以殺妻或其他不當行為領取保險給付者應與"},{"start":4686.792,"end":4692.48,"text":"追回外並按其領取之保險給付除以兩倍罰還第53條年滿55歲之原住民在"},{"start":4701.133,"end":4724.614,"text":"國內設有戶籍且無下列各款請示者於本法《中華民國一百年6月13日修正之條文》施行後得勤領人每月新台幣五千元至年滿六十五歲前一個月為止所需經費由中央援助民族事務主管機關按年度編列預算支應"},{"start":4726.136,"end":4748.977,"text":"1.限職公教職及公民營事業人員但每月工作收入未超過勞工保險投保薪資分及表第一級者不在此限2.領取政務人員、公教人員、公營事業人員月退休職金或均人退伍奉"},{"start":4750.536,"end":4775.118,"text":"終身生活補助費3 以領取身心障礙者生活補助或榮民救養給付4 有第31條第1項第1款第4款至第6款情形之一但未產生經濟效益支援住民保留地列入第31條第1項第5款土地計算"},{"start":4776.141,"end":4799.572,"text":"依前項規定勤理每人每月新台幣五千元之年齡限制與本法施行後應配合原住民平均餘命與全體國民平均餘命差距之縮短而逐步提高最低勤理年齡至六十五歲其最低勤理年齡支條高由中央"},{"start":4800.871,"end":4814.83,"text":"原住民逐事務主管機關每五年檢討一次並報請行政院核定之第五十四條之一至中華民國春年春月春日修正之"},{"start":4816.344,"end":4839.316,"text":"條文施行之日起本法所定的老年年金給付加計金額調整為新台幣五千元老人基本保證年金第30條第二項第三款第二目及第31條第一項第二款第一目按月累計金額第42條第二項及第四項及"},{"start":4842.745,"end":4844.39,"text":"第53條鎖定金額調整為新台幣5000元生辛菜"},{"start":4848.905,"end":4878.303,"text":"年金給付基本保障及身心障礙基本保障年金之金額調整為新台幣6,715元其後每四年調整一次由中央主管機關參照中央主計機關發布之最近一年消費者物價指數較前者調整之前一年消費者物價指數成長率公告調整之但成長率為0或負數時不予調整"},{"start":4879.71,"end":4908.53,"text":"中央主管機關因依前項規定調整接滿兩年後調整一次於中央主管與主計機關發布之最近一年消費者物價指數較前次調整之前一年消費者不得選擇前項第一款之寄給方式一有欠繳保險費期間不不計入保險年之情勢二領取相關社會福利津貼"},{"start":4909.671,"end":4936.518,"text":"三 已領取相關社會保險老年給付但第七條第二款及第三款規定支備保險人有下列情形之一者不在此限一 領取勞工保險老年給付者二 已領取公教人員保險養老給付軍人保險退伍給付者自年滿六數稅當日起"},{"start":4938.578,"end":4941.406,"text":"以新台幣五千元按月累計達元領取給付總額"},{"start":4947.366,"end":4977.086,"text":"被保险人于发生保险事故前一年期间之保险费或逆袭有欠缴情形,经保险人以书面献其命其缴纳,欲其使为缴纳者,依其依法得领取前三个月老年年金几付,按第一项第二款规定计算之。依第一项第一款规定,请领老年年金几付者,其数额于第二款计算。"},{"start":4983.334,"end":4994.768,"text":"所得數額之差額由中央主管機關負擔老年年金給付自符合條件之當月起按月發給自死亡當月止"},{"start":4995.936,"end":5014.479,"text":"依第33條規定請領身心障礙年金給付者於年滿65歲時得改請領老年年金給付其請領身心障礙年金前之保險年資得併入本條之保險年資"},{"start":5017.646,"end":5039.456,"text":"計物價指數成長率達百分之三十因及時公告調整不受前項四年之限制符合下列規定者是依前二項所定基本數而調整但中華民國缺年缺日修正之"},{"start":5040.812,"end":5050.219,"text":"條文施行前已符合請領資格者不適用之一在國內設有戶籍二最近三年每年居住國內超過183日"},{"start":5053.851,"end":5080.902,"text":"第59條中華本法自中華民國97年10月1日起施行本法施行本法修正條文自公佈日施行但中華民國100年6月29日修正公佈之第7條第二款第三款及第30條第二項第三款至97年10月1日施行第6條第4款第13條第一項"},{"start":5083.883,"end":5109.925,"text":"及第3項 即 全年全日 全月全日修正條文之施行日期由行政院定之宣讀完畢現在進行討論事項國民年金法部分條文修正草案等37案之除條審查"},{"start":5111.345,"end":5131.353,"text":"每條條文先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見現在進行本案主條討論先請屋福部及主計總署說明目前基金財務情況以及是否有為提撥責任負債與近五年中央政府每年補助基金的數額"},{"start":5139.221,"end":5139.543,"text":"主席總統要請講"},{"start":5150.496,"end":5175.295,"text":"各位委員大家好那主委總處先就我們整個中央政府的一個財務狀況來做一個說明我們現在的那個115年度預算編完以後我們的一個舉債空間差不多是1800多億那如果要扣掉後續現在在討論的一個軍購的一個特別條例的話還要再扣掉1300億所以我們整體的一個舉債空間差不多就是500多億的一個空間"},{"start":5176.837,"end":5185.457,"text":"所以我們現在行政院在規劃的一個調升的一個機制我們基本上就是在這個舉是可以在這個舉在空間裡面去容納的"},{"start":5187.233,"end":5212.49,"text":"但是現在有看到委員的一個版本就是有一些調升的一個幅度譬如說國民年金最高調到八千或是調到一萬塊然後或者是像老農年金因為我們老農年金之前也是送到立法院來做審議那老農津貼的一個部分他可能會調到一萬五千塊所以整體就是以委員提案的一個版本來講的話"},{"start":5214.201,"end":5235.213,"text":"整個那個金額要增加金額要大達1000多億但是我們現在的一個舉債空間只有500多億所以以現在的一個委員的提案版本在我們中央政府的一個財務狀況他其實是沒有辦法負擔的所以還是請委員以行政院的版本來做一個調整謝謝大家現在討論第15條條文提案的委員有"},{"start":5242.136,"end":5261.525,"text":"邱振军委员等17人,杨琼等36人,王美惠等17人,郑天才等17人,张志伦等16人,范芸等18人,廖伟祥等15人,张家俊等15人,罗廷伟等15人,李坤成等15人。"},{"start":5267.726,"end":5275.552,"text":"先請入府部說明"},{"start":5297.929,"end":5325.859,"text":"衛福部說明第15條其實跟這個有相關的其實是15條跟50條那15條的部分是有關於配偶要連帶繳納的一個義務的條文那這個條文在我們的這個行政院院板以及我們的委員的提案是有非常多的就有很大很高度的共識所以我們是建議用行政院院板的這個條文"},{"start":5327.279,"end":5341.791,"text":"把這個處罰的罰環的這個部分做刪除那但是我們仍然是維持著這個配偶之間要互付的一個連帶繳納衣物的一個宣誓性的條文要在"},{"start":5342.532,"end":5370.075,"text":"那其中有一個就是邱振均委員的提案是跟其他的委員不太一樣的部分是他連同這個互付連帶繳納的義務這個條文是刪除的那這個部分我們就建議不採納所以原則上我們是在15條的部分是建議照行政院院版以及楊瓊英委員提案民眾黨黨團提案王美惠委員提案那鄭天才委員提案范瑩委員提案"},{"start":5371.075,"end":5394.422,"text":"張主委委員提案 廖偉強等委員提案張家俊委員提案 廖崑城委員提案羅廷偉委員提案能夠希望能夠依照這樣的提案通過 以上報告前委員發言 楊耀偉謝謝主席我們第15條院版呢 就是把"},{"start":5395.495,"end":5415.419,"text":"法環的部分刪除可是我看你們的說明裡面明白的指出來法定的夫妻財產制的觀念然後還有就是夫妻之間配偶之間對於保費這件事情"},{"start":5419.252,"end":5444.772,"text":"連帶責任其實是跟夫妻財產制是有相違背的為什麼你們不一併做討論第二個就是因為我們國民年金的納保對象並不限於家庭主婦所以你們也在說明欄裡面講說本法是保障家務勞動者的經濟安全"},{"start":5447.833,"end":5472.458,"text":"可是我們的投保對象並不限於家務勞動者所以這個是不是你們要再做一下研究因為整個夫妻財產的概念裡面其實配偶之間縱使在婚姻關係程序中"},{"start":5476.739,"end":5500.757,"text":"所有權各自保有債務各自負責我看不出來說我們的國民年金啊我們的國民年金可能當初有一些外國的立法例他是因為沒有其他的保險就是家庭勞動者沒有其他的保險可以投"},{"start":5501.918,"end":5518.666,"text":"射出來的可是我們台灣的國民年金並沒有台灣的國民年金只要你沒有工保 勞保你大概都可以來投這個是跟外國的立法力很大的差別所以"},{"start":5519.517,"end":5542.544,"text":"投保的對象既然不限於家庭的勞動者也就是一方出去工作 一方沒有出去工作家庭的勞動者 家務有酬的概念那你們有關夫妻之間 父母連帶責任的部分要不要再討論看看你們要回答一下嗎"},{"start":5550.069,"end":5577.072,"text":"因為我看你們的說明裡面就是全部都是在否定負負連帶責任的觀念你們提到了你們在說明第一點提到了夫妻財產那夫妻財產分離所以也就不應該負連帶責任你們第三點寫到了保障家務勞動者可是我們的納保對象並不限於家務勞動者"},{"start":5581.693,"end":5607.379,"text":"我們要不要一邊問完再回答還是也可以啦我覺得今天可能修法你們要在這裡說服你們會有困難啦不過我覺得這樣子的觀念你們是不是也可以帶回去做個很通盤的研究啦好不好柏丁你要不要講不然你先跟阿輝答謝好嗎好那先回答"},{"start":5613.312,"end":5626.299,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我們國民年金主要是沒有其他的職業保險者所投保的最低保障"},{"start":5627.506,"end":5656.69,"text":"那麼過去當然在這個立法的時候的精神是為了保障主要是家庭主婦啦他沒有外出工作可是卻為家庭付出了勞務嘛所以應該在另外一方呢要負擔他的這個年金保險的繳納義務假如說他的納保對象就是只有家庭家務從事者那這個是沒有錯可是問題是現在有可能是"},{"start":5657.33,"end":5676.924,"text":"配偶雙方都是國民年金很有可能啊因為台灣的納保對象並沒有嚴格限制是家屋勞動者我剛才提的建議是這樣子啊保證你不要回答我 你們再回去研究好了沒有啦 我是希望這樣啦這件事是這樣啦 就是說"},{"start":5678.945,"end":5697.782,"text":"因為確實我們這一次會把那個第二項的後半段就是互付連帶繳納義務留著但是沒有這個強制性絕對強制性第二項的後半段就是強制性如果那個沒有按照規定繳納的時候配偶"},{"start":5698.584,"end":5712.423,"text":"要強制命令他要繳納這個把他拿掉啦這個會牽涉到的就是我們雖然在有婚姻關係下呢是婚姻這個夫妻財產是個別制啦沒有錯可是一旦他"},{"start":5713.604,"end":5729.747,"text":"他有離異或什麼的時候那是要起來訓報的所以在這個概念之下所以我們現在考慮到有的是分居或已經達成離婚協議那就不強制啦所以主要是要解決補充我就說你要先不要回答啦因為連帶債務的概念是可以隨時向任何一方求償啦並不"},{"start":5741.79,"end":5767.049,"text":"罰則的部分還在後面啦然後你們會刪除罰則的部分就表示連帶責任本身是有一些問題你們有一點心虛所以才廢掉的啦我沒有一定要今天解決這件事我只是提醒說我們的納保對象既然沒有很嚴格的限制"},{"start":5767.935,"end":5785.448,"text":"那連帶責任確實跟夫妻財產也好從民法的概念民法連帶責任是這樣子就是可以對任何一方優先求償這個你們回去研究看看啦"},{"start":5789.682,"end":5799.292,"text":"就是遵照委員的指示我們待會去再研究一下我這指示就輕鬆了好不好你有支持這個法條嗎就是要刪除就一步一步漸進式的就結束了"},{"start":5809.824,"end":5833.621,"text":"好 所以楊委員是支持行政版本嘛但是他提出來的是一個就是更長遠的到底夫妻之間有沒有這樣的一個義務對 他講的是這樣如果沒有這樣的一個義務也沒有法則那又是另外一個修法那就很像邱正軍委員的版本但是可能是需要階段性的就是說以現行國民年金他的確就是"},{"start":5835.396,"end":5864.126,"text":"他的收入來源就已經有問題了啦那如果一下子拿掉的話恐怕那個那個撼動整個整個的那個程度會比較高所以我是建議如果大家沒有其他的意見的話那養老委員更長遠的未來在下一個階段是不是要完全拿掉那是下一個階段那現階段今天的修法是不是就是因為各委員版本也相同嘛那就按照行政院的版本通過好 這樣還有意見嗎"},{"start":5865.226,"end":5881.333,"text":"還有嗎我也是呼應王玉敏委員我也是呼應王玉敏委員因為這邊有個很核心的問題就是說我們現行的制度是把被保險人自己要負擔的保險責任外溢到婚姻關係那剛剛關於您解釋很清楚第15條第二項"},{"start":5883.194,"end":5908.844,"text":"被保險甚至可以限期要求配偶代為繳納這個設計是很有爭議的所以他把自己的這個保險衣物轉成配偶要一起承擔就很像是一個懲罰婚姻的制度那問題是他不只是帶繳我比較想問的是可能第50條才會討論到但是因為我們如果支持現在院版還有很多委員的版本把15條這邊刪除的話那50條的罰環"},{"start":5914.368,"end":5927.406,"text":"就你五十項也會全部一起拿掉五十條第二項也會 就不會再有罰款了好 謝謝好 現在請林業勤參議員"},{"start":5932.09,"end":5956.157,"text":"這個可能要跟50條一起來看所以我非常贊成這條的修法因為隨著女性越來越多投入職場婚姻跟家庭的樣貌也變得很多元所以過去那種有配偶負擔經濟代為繳納保費的制度大概已經是不符合現在的社會現實所以現在如果說現行這樣的規定不僅要求配偶代為繳保費甚至"},{"start":5957.477,"end":5979.315,"text":"在沒有帶腳的話還要處以罰款的話容易讓人家覺得好像結婚反而會多了一層責任甚至有懲罰婚姻的疑慮雖然剛剛部長有講說當初的考量是什麼可是跟現在的狀況就是不太一樣嘛因為實務上也確實出現不少問題像夫妻早已分居關係疏離甚至已談妥離婚的話可是在法律上還要要求"},{"start":5979.955,"end":6000.417,"text":"負擔對方的保險費這樣規定不但不合理而且容易引起爭議更何況制度對被保險人自己未繳費並沒有罰則卻對配偶來做開罰我覺得標準明顯不一致所以這次修法要在維持保障家務勞動者的老年經濟安全的前提下應該拿掉強制"},{"start":6001.418,"end":6023.493,"text":"配偶來代繳跟罰還的一些規定該以鼓勵的方式來做處理讓制度回到尊重個人跟婚姻平等的原則也比較符合女性強調經濟自主關係平等的價值所以我非常支持可是我覺得等下50條我也覺得也應該是跟這15條是相同的概念也一併應該要來做處理以上好 再去委員"},{"start":6026.971,"end":6047.756,"text":"好謝謝渣偉那針對這一條我們是沒有提相對的這個案子不過我們非常支持依照行政院版目前希望把最後一句把它刪除那當然它還是有附有連帶繳納之義務只是非強制那在處分上也做適當的調整"},{"start":6049.396,"end":6065.172,"text":"不過也利用這個時間跟大家稍微提醒將來因為我們也知道其實目前根據報導就是我們這些國保致富的收繳率其實相對是低的不到五成"},{"start":6066.073,"end":6086.419,"text":"那依照那個拉保局的統計呢收繳率沒有到達五成最高到49.7%那依照這個衛福部社會保險室的長官們也了解去分析這個沒有繳交國民年金的原因包括不想繳有40%不知道要繳有24%經濟困難有37%這都是事實"},{"start":6090.6,"end":6109.992,"text":"那未來如何能夠針對這一部分也能夠有補強或是根據這些事實的原因去處理我相信我們非常贊成這一條的修正內容不過附帶也希望這一部分也需要再加強以上好 謝謝還有委員要發言嗎好 環秀分委員"},{"start":6112.833,"end":6137.692,"text":"根據這一條其實我們在地方有時候服務個案的時候就會碰到就是說配偶一方他可能繳不出這個保費那就需要由另外一方來負擔那有的根本就是已經分居或者是有的根本就是沒有聯絡那這個保費要由另外一方來負擔會覺得說不公平那我在這邊是支持"},{"start":6138.452,"end":6140.814,"text":"行政院版 就是刪除配偶連帶繳納義務及罰則的這個規定 謝謝接下來請范雲委員"},{"start":6149.773,"end":6168.263,"text":"我想這個當初的設計的確就是希望說能夠去協助保障就是沒有工作的家庭主婦那他的部分由配偶承擔那大家也知道我們現在的女性婚後的勞動參與率就是慢慢有在提升雖然還是比男性低那但是"},{"start":6168.823,"end":6186.644,"text":"你這個不繳罰配偶的設計其實就預設的女性她並不是一個經濟的主體那譬如說我們中正大學的社福系的副教授王素穎就覺得這個其實是一種就是也是一種性別的不正義那另外實務上就像剛剛"},{"start":6187.945,"end":6207.757,"text":"黃秀芳委員講的你現在會遇到各種狀況如果感情很好的配偶你不寫的話他其實都會協助繳納那你遇到的可能就是分居感情不和睦等等那這個部分如果他的婚姻法律關係還沒有完成終止的話那你等於是懲罰他要負擔婚姻程序期間的這個繳納義務所以我想這一條跟"},{"start":6212.119,"end":6237.54,"text":"五十條這部分那我都很支持院版的精神不要懲罰就是婚姻制度然後假設兩個人不是一個實質上獨立的個體那如果婚姻和睦感情好的時候就算你不寫其實我相信他都會相互協助的以上好謝謝范委員那有沒有要再發言"},{"start":6241.099,"end":6246.461,"text":"就照行政院提案通過邱蕙若議員我們民眾黨團提出來的版本也是針對第15條第二項的後段刪除那就是保留前段那我想後段刪除的結果就會連帶影響到第50條第二項"},{"start":6266.686,"end":6290.822,"text":"發責的刪除那我想就如同各位委員憲進所提到的就是說如果是以婚姻關係之有無作為這個裁罰的一個基礎事實其實這個是有違反這個憲法的一個平等原則因為如果你要針對一件事情去做差別待遇的話其實你要有合理正當的理由要有合理關聯性那如果"},{"start":6291.562,"end":6306.444,"text":"自以為之當然就是違法違反憲法的平等原則所以我們當然也是主張15條的二項後段連同50條的二三項刪除但是我這邊就是提出一個"},{"start":6308.476,"end":6335.568,"text":"思考的問題就是說因為15條2項的前段保留那這邊有一個就是夫妻之間互付連帶繳納的義務那因為它是一個連帶繳納的觀念那如果今天有一方沒有繳納另一方就要連帶繳納那如果沒有繳納的話因為法律已經規範它是一個連帶責任那是否有如果沒有繳納那是否有這個"},{"start":6337.81,"end":6352.53,"text":"強制執行就是行政強制執行如果沒有繳納是不是也有這樣的一個效果那這樣的一個效果其實當然他不急於強烈的手段用處罰但是如果沒有繳納其實他可能最後"},{"start":6353.551,"end":6382.13,"text":"也會被行政法上的強制執行來執行那可能對於這個問題最終沒有完整的一個解決但是我在想各位先進就是針對前段的部分是有保留但是是否也會有這樣的一個問題那目前當然我們也是採取這樣的方式只是未來這個問題是不是留待未來我們可以有更多的時間形成共識進一步去思考那就是一些前件的分享 謝謝"},{"start":6383.439,"end":6411.114,"text":"好謝謝秀慧路委員那就看現在的螢幕是沒有任何的修正嗎好那我們就照行政案版提案通過下面進行第30條提案有蔡議員委員等17人施耀委員等18人王美惠委員等22人陳平菲委員等16人"},{"start":6413.822,"end":6433.512,"text":"請幕府部說明三十條的主要的修正的內容包含了老年年金的勤領的條文包含了額度還有經費負擔的歸屬那剛剛今天的修正動議王振旭委員也有提出三十條的修正動議"},{"start":6434.893,"end":6462.657,"text":"那首先要說明的部分就是我們在領取額度的部分的話我們希望是考量本法修正條文54條之一因為我們這次的條文也有修到54條之一所以配合54條之一的一個基本額度的調整我們希望能夠將老年A式加計金額的調整後的領取額度"},{"start":6463.597,"end":6481.06,"text":"能夠修正為五千元這樣的部分才會比較明確所以這個是我們這邊所提到的第一個部分那另外一個部分是領取額度的部分有蔡議員委員陳廷輝委員王美惠委員他們的提案有特別提到"},{"start":6482.021,"end":6508.631,"text":"會增加這個基本額度這個部分呢會增加政府財政負擔那我們估算出來這個財政負擔將近有500多億到933億這樣的一個幅度那為了兼顧政府的一個財政上的負擔我們希望能夠維持院版的一個條文這個我們希望能夠提出這個通盤的考量來維持現行的規定來處理 謝謝"},{"start":6512.406,"end":6527.421,"text":"我們沒有修好 請委員發言沒有願吧沒有願沒有願沒有嗎這間修正都議王正旭委員這邊有修正都議"},{"start":6531.743,"end":6545.2,"text":"謝謝非常感謝剛剛我們的市長的說明那其實這個條文我們是希望說從原本的這個在第一款裡面"},{"start":6546.101,"end":6575.621,"text":"最後新台幣3000元的部分能不能再增加到5000元那這部分主要是中嘉賓委員他不是我們的委員會委員所以由他在處理的這個希望能夠有相關的折優部分做調整但是我們這邊是也一併一起來跟大家討論不過剛剛市長的說明我們可以尊重衛福部這邊的一些想法以上"},{"start":6579.342,"end":6584.144,"text":"現在進行第31條條文有蔡議員等17人王美惠委員等22人陳平輝委員等16人楊瓊委員等36人"},{"start":6605.16,"end":6622.518,"text":"鄭天才委員等17人 張志龍委員等16人廖偉祥委員等18人 張家俊委員等17人羅廷委員等18人 李坤城委員等20人邱正軍委員等19人 胡鑫委員等17人請問服務說明"},{"start":6626.687,"end":6654.915,"text":"第三十一條的部分條文的內容有包含幾個重點第一個重點是針對老年基本保障年金的勤領條文這個內容裡面包含了幾個部分第一個是排付基準然後額度然後也有委員特別有提到原住民的淨法補償金讓我們來分別說明一下那針對排付基準的建議其實行政院院"},{"start":6655.675,"end":6671.219,"text":"行政院院版的這個部分也是相同的就是委員有王美惠委員李昆城委員的提案是跟行政院委員的提案是相同的所以我們這邊的建議是能夠這個排附的基準是能夠按照行政院的提案來通過"},{"start":6673.581,"end":6697.241,"text":"那基本額度的部分的話雖然也有委員有提出不同的這個額度但是因為預估的經費會增加比較這個增加的經費一年增加經費會高達了572億到933億之間的不等的一個經費估算那也是為了兼顧政府財政的負擔所以我們建議是按照行政院的版本通過"},{"start":6698.442,"end":6721.789,"text":"那另外一個部分呢是針對了原住民的淨法補償金的部分盧憲一委員這邊有特別的一個提案那這個部分呢我們希望能夠請這個原住民委員會這邊是不是也能夠補充說明一下然後來看一下這個淨法補償金的一個定性以及目前的一個實際上的狀況 以上"},{"start":6726.107,"end":6753.28,"text":"好 那鄭天才委員不好意思 因為我要去質詢那個有關禁法補償的部分我了解到相關的部會的意見也不太一致也不是很確定無論是法務部或是這個法國會的意見也不是那麼明確所以為了確定我建議還是放在這個條文裡面"},{"start":6754.06,"end":6755.701,"text":"在這邊做這樣的一個建議 以上謝謝"},{"start":6781.974,"end":6807.219,"text":"主席 各位委員有關移民會這邊的意見金馬補償當然我們是非屬社會福利的津貼那是一個財產權的一個限制的補償也就是說它是非所得是損失補償就我們大概統計我們去年我們的優惠單位那邊有統計我們總共有五萬一千人平均是一年大概就九萬六"},{"start":6809.119,"end":6826.77,"text":"前三名的大概有一兩百萬以上都有所以如果要明定在法條裡面我們是尊重那個大院跟主管機關的意見以上好 謝謝請回答說明"},{"start":6833.218,"end":6856.936,"text":"謝謝主席這部分跟剛剛三十條是有點類似就是在這個每人的每月新台幣相關的部分是希望從三千元提升到五千元到死亡為止這個是我們當初莊委員希望能夠透過針對於我們這群弱勢的"},{"start":6857.737,"end":6876.756,"text":"民眾們說相對在因應這個物價波動過程當中帶來的衝擊不過我想剛剛主管機關也說明非常清楚這部分我們就充分尊重主管機關在修正的內涵就能夠一併處理"},{"start":6877.757,"end":6891.029,"text":"那其他的部分呢事實上就是跟行政院版是一致的所以我想我們可以接受行政院版的內容以上好謝謝王哲秀委員還沒見好沒有請召委"},{"start":6894.992,"end":6915.641,"text":"因為這個應該看起來當初本來像我版本也是我覺得事實上是參考老農津貼來修正我們的調整那個排付條款所以我也覺得剛剛部裡面已經有解釋我是覺得按照我們警政院提出來版本可是現在就要問的是是不是因為剛剛一直有在提到的也就是"},{"start":6916.881,"end":6930.652,"text":"有關我們的原住民族的那個禁法補償的幾戶的一個清零規定是要在這邊並同討論的還是那如果這樣的話我覺得可能要去考慮的像大概4萬多戶的原住民如果領那個禁法補償的"},{"start":6931.773,"end":6953.354,"text":"那如果以這樣子的一個條款應該如果是中低收入戶的話我覺得本來應該是可以去被接受可是如果全部都要開放的話還是要考慮到整體裁員還有一個就是所謂的公平正義的那如果說中低收入本來就是應該要照顧的那當然就因為他畢竟是弱勢我覺得可能要考慮到這個方向以上"},{"start":6954.556,"end":6962.503,"text":"這也是我的版本 健保補償是屬於國家的所謂的財產權受損的補償並不是社會福利的性質所以如果你領取國家補償然後又導致無法請領國民年金會形成國家補償這一筆然後又從另外一處扣回"},{"start":6979.398,"end":6996.003,"text":"有違反公平原則那所以我的可以討論的方向就是是不是可以一定的數做一個界限當然每一個民眾民主領導的金馬補償不一樣有的人是只有領幾萬塊如果他就也列入的話就"},{"start":6997.023,"end":7011.035,"text":"就覺得不公平那如果說按照這個我們現在是六十萬的話可以用這樣的一個基準來設比如說這個人他確實領到每年有超過六十萬的進訪補償的話就可以列入說他排庫的條款裡面"},{"start":7018.693,"end":7031.789,"text":"這個條文很抱歉30條跟31條這裡面都會涉及到剛剛那個王振旭委員有提到的那個基本年金那因為51條之後面51條之一還沒有"},{"start":7036.277,"end":7053.75,"text":"後面就是我們還沒有討論那個金額因為那個委員的版本都在後面那個都還沒有確認金額所以這兩條可能是不是先保留到後面那個確認之後再回來修因為這個金額我們現在目前的條文都是3000"},{"start":7054.771,"end":7084.058,"text":"但是后面如果修了之后再回来一起讨论这个条文至于这个排付的条件的部分我们是建议是按照行政院的版本来定这个排付条件那至于说这个进法补偿的部分因为这个有一点争议就是说因为它发放的那个额度的range很大它可以到上百万到几万块"},{"start":7084.665,"end":7108.181,"text":"所以如果全部都完全排除不在這個排富的這個財產計算的話怕有這個公平性的問題所以是不是對可能要我們再討論一下那個最多可以是多少如果像剛剛提到是說大概是一年是在九萬我覺得那個還可以接受但是有那個上百萬的"},{"start":7109.102,"end":7136.18,"text":"那個是不是也一定把它排除這個就可能有因為它是一年一直領下去的它並不是一次性的它是每年每年都一直領的所以這樣的話恐怕那個公平性會有問題當然這個健保補償還有一個它的比較特殊性只是它是以貨為原則所以有的時候它雖然是領這筆錢可是它要照顧的人非常多所以可能平均分它下去所以可能在細項的時候在討論的時候可能也可以再更細緻一點OK"},{"start":7141.533,"end":7154.141,"text":"31條先保留那我們進行第34條第34條提案的委員有吳仕堯委員等18人先請入部說明"},{"start":7164.278,"end":7177.653,"text":"跟各位委員報告34條的條文內容主要是針對身心障礙年金的一個情理的條文裡面呢也是有提到了所謂的額度以及經費負擔的歸屬這個部分那因為"},{"start":7181.717,"end":7203.029,"text":"今天的臨時動議裡面王振旭委員這邊也有動到34條的條文那因為34條的條文也是跟剛才30條31條一樣要討論到後面的條文了之後我們確認這個額度之後再能確認34條這邊要修正的一個文字所以這個部分是不是我們建議先保留好 請王振旭委員發言是 同意先保留好"},{"start":7209.946,"end":7226.304,"text":"那就第34條保留現在進行第36條條文提案的委員有吳思耀委員等18人請修正動議我們林玉琴召委所提案的第36條修正案先請問一步說明"},{"start":7234.578,"end":7251.507,"text":"三十六條的條文的部分因為有這個經費負擔歸屬的問題那這個經費負擔歸屬的問題我們林若晴委員也有提修正動議還有民進黨黨團委員這個部分我們尊重委員的大院的審議的結果好 請王毓民委員發言"},{"start":7257.831,"end":7285.349,"text":"關於第36條 他是要把原來這一個保證年金 身心障礙保證年金跟老年保證年金的經費從中央主管機關必須按年度編列預算之印要把它改成是按財力分級讓地方進來分攤那我提醒大家 這個卓榮泰院長對於新版的財劃法他是用不附屬"},{"start":7286.83,"end":7313.748,"text":"所以就是現在行政院長是用不附屬的情況讓這個整個財化法現在到底地方政府可不可以拿到這筆錢這還是一個問號還有爭議但是提案的委員用新版財化法為由就要從這邊由中央應該負的責任要轉嫁到地方我認為是非常的不妥大家知道國民年金的整個的開辦"},{"start":7314.989,"end":7335.985,"text":"事實上在那個裁員的部分大家如果看到原本的設計本來就是中央來主導所有的一切裁員保費也都是歸中央然後由中央來編列我覺得這樣子整個運作才會順暢你今天把它改成是按照地方財力分級我就問如果有地方"},{"start":7336.826,"end":7363.572,"text":"他的財力他說他沒有辦法支應那請問還要不要支付那這個責任誰負那這個會變成是一國多治導致我們的身心障礙者跟老年人他應該要取得的年金造成一種不公平的現象事實上社會福利不應該是這樣子我們不應該有這樣的一個差別待遇特別是他是國民年金我提醒大家所以這樣的提案基本上是反對的"},{"start":7364.772,"end":7390.369,"text":"這個不符合我們去保障每一個弱勢每一個應該領到國民年金的這一些家庭主婦也好長者也好他們的權利都應該是一致的一旦你在財力的部分你讓各縣市的這個責任再加進來各縣市執行不一的時候那個爭議會非常的大所以行政院也沒有提這樣的修正版本我建議就維持行政院現行的版本謝謝"},{"start":7396.273,"end":7419.93,"text":"我提出修正東西我覺得在在二零也就前年那時候上財務法的那個地板事實上是已經是通過的 直到去年的話事實上的確陳如玉女委員提到目前的狀況這樣 可是我既然我們財政收支法案已經修正的話 應該落實我們的"},{"start":7420.97,"end":7444.028,"text":"財權隨勢全移轉地方政府在財源增加的同時也應該承擔更多的社會福利的一個責任所以過去有中央負擔的部分今天因為改為來中央跟地方共同來負擔我覺得是制度比較合理的方向所以重點是財力比較好的地方政府就不應該再高度依賴中央資源因為有些已經事實上是"},{"start":7445.549,"end":7465.32,"text":"經費已經撥給在我們的地方了所以應該更積極的投入弱勢照顧跟我們的在地的社會福利那中央就持續維持基本保障跟我們的調節機制來確保各地的那個服務不自失衡來達成公平跟效率兼顧的那個目標謝謝林議前委員 接下來請陳金輝發言"},{"start":7468.524,"end":7496.811,"text":"剛剛有聽到主管機關說了嘛所以我們連行政院的版本都沒有把這些東西寫進來碰這麼大這麼有爭議性的責任改寫所以我認為不是很適合把目前這個財化法的爭議帶進來硬把一個福國利民的法律綁到這些財化法的攻防上因為我們今天國民年金要談的重點其實是聚焦在保障可不可以足夠調整機制合不合理那"},{"start":7498.391,"end":7515.099,"text":"我覺得把中央的責任改的地方很不合邏輯也不合制度的原理所以特別又去看了世界上其他國家是怎麼做的那當然我覺得衛生福利部的官員應該也有研究過每一個國家的做法然後我們才會寫出這樣子的版本"},{"start":7516.38,"end":7544.197,"text":"那這個本來就是中央的責任因為大家勞保不會修地方要幾副大家公保也不會修地方要幾副啊那我查了美國的社會安全年金是由聯邦體系來指引的英國的國家年金由全國性的國民保險基金指引加拿大的老年保障年金是聯邦政府體系澳洲高齡年金是澳洲政府的全國性收入支持"},{"start":7544.817,"end":7569.538,"text":"日本的基礎年金有國庫負擔德國的法定年金也有聯邦補助這些國家其實都有很成熟的地方社福但沒有看到哪一個國家是把全國性的法定年金及負責任依照地方的財力分歧切給地方政府去扛所以在這邊我是提議主席如果等一下大家都發言完沒有什麼共識我們就可以予以保留 謝謝"},{"start":7571.718,"end":7600.186,"text":"好 謝謝陳監務委員 接下來請王振旭委員發言好 謝謝主席 我想第36條基本上做這樣的修正動議是有他很希望能夠透過這個方式來解決地方跟中央如何去處理潮汙負擔不過因為36條會連動到54條之一就是相關的額度如果沒有定下來的話 事實上36條要做調整是"},{"start":7601.106,"end":7625.118,"text":"在一開始就不是太適合所以我也是先建議先保留我們看54之一機條的修正內容以後我們再回頭來看這個條文以上好 我們再請惠夫說明這個條文我想是不是就先保留到後面再一併討論這樣"},{"start":7627.179,"end":7653.512,"text":"好謝謝那我們就36條先行保留接下來進行第39條39條提案委員有蔡議員等17人王美惠委員等22人陳婷菲委員等16人以上請衛福部說明衛福部說明那這個部分39條的條文主要是針對"},{"start":7654.952,"end":7676.886,"text":"喪葬己父請領的一個條文的內容那主要的考慮是三位委員他們提案的主要的考慮都是認為目前的國民年金的喪葬己父沒有做過調整那希望能夠做調升來符合目前的實際上的一個需要那這邊我們是尊重大院審查的審議的結果好 請委員發言"},{"start":7682.902,"end":7701.296,"text":"因為這幾位委員今天就是沒有辦法到那但是就是我幫他們說明一下因為我有知道他們的原因因為商帳的費用其實隨著就是經濟的成長那其實也變高了那另外我們如果來看一下比照勞工的話那事實上勞工的商帳津貼是為10個月"},{"start":7703.337,"end":7725.711,"text":"那其實這個我們就整體的政府的財政來講的話因為它這個發生的次數非常的少可能一人就是醫生也許就只有一次那所以這個就整個財務來講我覺得應該是可以負擔那如果可以負擔的話那我們也給國民年金的就是被保險人"},{"start":7726.511,"end":7749.229,"text":"也給他稍微比較寬裕的比照勞工的話我想這也是照顧全民所以我是希望衛福部如果在財政上這個支出評估不是那麼高的話那就能夠接受蔡議委員 王美惠委員跟陳廷輝委員為了照顧就是國民年金的被保險人所提出來的修正 以上好 請完畢委員發言"},{"start":7750.56,"end":7769.699,"text":"我想這個涉及到那個給付然後這個我希望衛福部可以提出自己的一個比較專業的評估因為剛剛從前面到現在你們都提到事實上國民年金現在的他的裁員繳費情況他其實是虛弱的那任何一個天衣法動全身"},{"start":7771.48,"end":7788.029,"text":"這個部分我會蠻尊重主管機關你們在財力上面的評估這個不是喊價式的就是說整個你們評估認為哪一些怎麼樣的調整然後是符合的而且確實有必要性的因為這次大家共識最高的其實是去鬆綁"},{"start":7789.209,"end":7817.17,"text":"前面可以領取的資格但是你所有的給付條件要再調高的我覺得這個的確是要透過精算我覺得主計跟衛福部都應該好好地去整個好好精算一遍那真的有必要的我想大家會支持但是如果不是的話那國民年金大家都知道他的財務狀況事實上是不好的那今天各位委員大家都同意可以去放寬資格是因為物價"},{"start":7818.551,"end":7842.477,"text":"調升了所以有一些他是必要調整的所以我建議這一條也是一併保留然後你們全部一起評估完之後我也建議召委今天保留的我們可能下一次再來審因為他們剛剛一直在提到說財務的評估非常的重要那我希望他們針對今天所有財務要增加的項目他們都一併做出完整的評估那下一次您再召開"},{"start":7843.618,"end":7854.968,"text":"第二次的會議的時候他們必須把這個評估拿出來那大家有一個依據我們做一個很專業的審查我想這樣子就是符合這個修法的目的好不好 謝謝那接下來請問跟各位說明一下我們"},{"start":7861.835,"end":7890.328,"text":"比較了一下各個保險的這個一樣的這個商帳給付這是一次性給付如果是以公保為例的話大概是付這個30個月啦這是最多的那麼勞保的話我補充它有兩種一種是它是一般而言是5個月但是如果它沒有這個遺囑的話是10個月所以它有兩種"},{"start":7891.548,"end":7912.305,"text":"那但是以現在他的這個月投保金額是3萬多來計算的話大概是可以領大概17到20萬大概5個月的話大概17到20萬那農保的話呢他是可以領15個月的三藏津貼那他的月投保金額是2萬左右"},{"start":7914.867,"end":7924.779,"text":"跟國保差不多那國保現在也是差不多兩萬一千多那目前是五個月就是領十萬所以當然以金額來講相較於"},{"start":7928.143,"end":7935.45,"text":"老保跟農保的金額是比較低農保的話是30萬老保的話是17萬國保是10萬當然相對來講是比較低這個錢是來自於被保險人繳交的保險費來支應的"},{"start":7950.243,"end":7975.9,"text":"那因為他繳的保險費呢目前來講也是比較低就是以這個月投保金額只有用兩萬一千一來計算所以當然如果按照這個委員的版本調成十個月之後當然他的金額上就跟農勞保是相近那財務的影響一年大概是十二億的支出啦十二億的支出所以"},{"start":7979.742,"end":8004.569,"text":"這個是不是暫時不調算了啦還是要調調12億啦大概就是12億讓他貼近對對對就是就是可以貼近這個農勞保的的金額上來考慮的話就是這個按照那個委員的建議是不是可以讓他這個"},{"start":8007.479,"end":8022.858,"text":"這個調整這樣好謝謝部長現在請環修班委員發言謝謝主席那我先針對這一個部分就是那個商帳給付因為我們看到農保的那個商帳給付也是在這兩年當中這個從15萬然後調升到30萬"},{"start":8026.002,"end":8051.662,"text":"那我們看到這個國民年金的這個部分我們也希望就是像這樣給付能夠做一個調整因為如果是五萬的話其實跟其他的這個保險相較起來還是偏低那再來就是說會加入國民年金有的可能就是沒有其他的這個工作那我們也希望就是說藉由這樣的一個調升讓這個能夠更公平性我覺得應該像勞保的話"},{"start":8054.404,"end":8069.056,"text":"他現在就是差不多17萬多那農保差不多30萬嘛那工保更多嘛那所以我們希望就國民年金的這個部分我是希望能夠從5個月調升為10個月好謝謝好謝謝黃學旺委員現在請王正旭委員發言"},{"start":8069.696,"end":8090.665,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想蔡議員 王美惠委員跟陳菁惠委員他們有提出這個需求的確是一方面可以拉近跟勞保跟農保他們的一致性另外真的隨著各種生活這些要求在於各方面"},{"start":8091.665,"end":8112.912,"text":"照這個影響其實我們也可以理解這是一個人一輩子會有一次那對家人來講如果針對傷上給付他所需要費用也會隨著而增加的話事實上針對我們的國民年輕尤其是像弱勢的部分應該有好的條件來讓他們在"},{"start":8113.932,"end":8137.026,"text":"支付這個商帳費用的過程裡面也得到適當的支持所以我是蠻贊同說我們這三位委員所提出來把這個五個月調整十個月那剛剛部長也提到這樣的費用這是一次性的所以它是比較容易可以估出一個準確的費用在這裡面也期待大家一起來支持以上"},{"start":8140.575,"end":8142.456,"text":"好那現在請主席總處說明應該是"},{"start":8157.289,"end":8172.868,"text":"這個金額還可以委員報告因為這一筆商商給付是從基金這邊支出的所以跟剛才那個債限中央政府負擔那個債限有點不一樣是從國保基金裡面支出的"},{"start":8173.448,"end":8200.856,"text":"那依照國保基金的精算報告目前看起來它的收支不足的年度是在123年那基金用期的年度是138年那以主席總署的立場當然希望說這個基金的財務能夠健全那但是因為有兼顧一些給付的公平性等等這個我們會尊重這個衛福部的意見以上這個會影響到整個基金的精算"},{"start":8203.814,"end":8222.555,"text":"差不多了沒有一樣啊農保剛剛說多少不是農保是30萬農保30萬那我建議再調高再往上如果你們覺得財務是可以的話那就15萬那它如果是10個月的話剛剛我也贊成更接近嘛那再往上"},{"start":8224.11,"end":8241.302,"text":"再往上15萬因為我最擔心的是你們的財政既然你們覺得財政無虞的話那我建議就是如果要拉高的話剛剛那個利潤也是對的嘛那就是不止10萬我覺得15萬更接近這樣也沒有支出多少吧既然反正都可以增加已經到20了啦已經到20 10個月是20有到20嗎現在新的就是到20修正條文就是10個月就是20高於老保高於老保 對"},{"start":8256.294,"end":8261.655,"text":"老保才17萬這邊一條變20萬OK 那"},{"start":8282.541,"end":8283.121,"text":"那他們才領十幾萬"},{"start":8298.341,"end":8326.033,"text":"那個勞保局發言一下就是說現在就是各保險的制度有點差異勞保勞保跟國民年金都是5個月原則上那勞保是如果不能領遺屬年金的才可以像兄弟姊妹那些才可以變成10個月所以基本上以勞保跟國保都是5個月那農保是因為農保沒有遺屬年金所以他一次性的死亡領的比較多而且他的投保金額真的比較低所以各保險性質有點不一樣那勞保如果用平均投保金額"},{"start":8326.673,"end":8349.218,"text":"三萬多的話大概是十七萬五個月的話那國民年金現在就是五個月的話是兩萬一所以是十萬塊大概制度上是這樣那在各位委員評估是因為有時候因為我們辦理這麼多社會保險給付有時候會有一些橫貧性的東西可能也是要請各位委員睿智的思考一下以上說明"},{"start":8351.64,"end":8374.278,"text":"我是覺得這個大家原則上是支持就是說更好的保障那金額 金算部分因為還有其他相關部分是不是就一起保留等一下我想請教一下那個是勞保局的同仁對不對就是你剛剛講一個很重要的概念就是說在各項保險裡面因為原本國民免金講五個月是因為勞保也是五個月"},{"start":8375.509,"end":8392.919,"text":"你的意思是這樣子嗎因為當初就是國民就是社會保險大概都是會相互參考比照所以以整個社會保最多的勞保以及國民年金這個保險的話他們當初涉及的話商帳這是指的商帳因為他們都還有配套移屬年金"},{"start":8393.839,"end":8414.809,"text":"那農保那邊是沒有移屬年齡所以其實這個是針對他練帳的費用的一個標準那兩邊都是五個月只是說兩邊的投保金額有差因為勞保也有低的也有高的我剛才講那個三萬多是一個平均的那國民銀行的投保金額是固定的是這樣的方式去設計制度的"},{"start":8415.182,"end":8440.63,"text":"好那是不是因為既然大家說保留我希望你們的專業意見跟衛福部討論一下就考量整個的橫平性怎麼樣的調整其實是一個合理的我們就尊重主管機關最後比較專業的一個考量好不好我想這個委員大概都會有各自的想法但是這個的確各個保險之間的橫平性各方面就是一併都兼顧這樣子好謝謝謝謝王一美會那"},{"start":8443.232,"end":8458.169,"text":"39條保留我們等一下進行42條討論完的時候休息10分鐘現在進行第42條第42條提案的委員有吳世耀委員等18人以上請入部說明"},{"start":8459.809,"end":8485.919,"text":"42條是有關於移屬年金那移屬年金這個條文除了吳思耀委員的等18人的提案之外那今天的王振旭委員這邊也有提出這個修正動議那主要的部分是有兩個第一個部分是在提到財務經費負擔的一個歸屬那另外一個部分是在針對清零額度那因為比照剛才前面的條文就是說第一個經費額度的歸屬"},{"start":8487.499,"end":8501.303,"text":"也是保留那青年的額度也是保留所以我們是建議42條的條文是先保留是同意先一起保留那就先保留那我們先休息10分鐘謝謝"},{"start":8519.971,"end":8535.085,"text":"你剛剛提到自助食 而且從國中自助食對啊 因為我們裡面已經真的很少人了都很少啊 偏小伙子對啊所以其實這個不一定是 一定要點自助食反正小伙子吃要加碼才叫自助食"},{"start":8551.751,"end":8553.392,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":9108.793,"end":9133.741,"text":"好 繼續開會就針對第30條剛才沒有意見的就是說衛福部第30條是否一起先保留OK 謝謝好 30條保留那現在進行第47條47條提案的委員有吳士堯委員的18人以上請衛福部說明"},{"start":9136.595,"end":9145.52,"text":"47條的部分一樣是有提到是這個經費負擔的一個部分那這個部分是不是也建議保留第47條保留現在進行第50條"},{"start":9161.902,"end":9185.299,"text":"提案委員有楊秋英委員等36人邱貞君委員等21人民政黨黨團完美會等17人鄭天才委員等17人張志龍委員等16人范瑩委員等18人賴偉翔委員等18人張家俊委員等17人盧田委員等18人李坤城委員等20人賴思寶委員等28人以上請問不說明"},{"start":9190.427,"end":9204.43,"text":"这个50条就是刚才我们跟15条有联动关系的配偶的发还的条文那这个部分就如同刚才有讨论的就是按照行政院的版本做这个建议以上好达成共识那就按照行政院版本通过现在进行第54条之一"},{"start":9219.451,"end":9233.902,"text":"的修正案,有修正案2跟3不好意思,因為我的53跟31是一起的所以我們就先行保留,可以嗎?好,謝謝"},{"start":9236.195,"end":9253.926,"text":"第53條保留現在進行第54條之一54條提案的委員有何欣淳委員等17人邱正俊委員等17人王美惠委員等18人劉建國委員等16人馬文俊委員等20人徐巧信委員等18人楊瓊瑩委員等36人民眾黨黨團"},{"start":9259.609,"end":9280.346,"text":"陳俊宇委員長29人黃秀芳委員長21人羅廷維委員等16人王美惠委員等17人鄭天才委員等17人張最龍委員等16人郭國榮委員等17人徐富奎委員等18人范瑩委員等18人林倩琪委員等18人徐宇峥委員等17人"},{"start":9281.387,"end":9305.804,"text":"蘇清泉委員等19人,廖偉祥委員等18人,張家俊委員等17人,林思明委員等19人,邱振鈞委員等19人,盧欣穎委員等17人以上邱振鈞有,王振旭委員,劉建國委員以上請六部說明"},{"start":9309.525,"end":9337.883,"text":"54條之一的部分是基本額度的一個條文那裡面有包含了額度調整機制還有一個就是CPI跟勤領的條件那這邊的話我們針對勤領額度部分的話我們建議外府部這邊是建議是依照行政院的建議條文那另外一個部分呢在CPI的調整機制這邊我們也是先我們是建議也是按照行政院的這個版本"},{"start":9338.443,"end":9341.95,"text":"來進行討論的一個基礎那因為這個54條之一的條文非常的委員非常的多有這個提案那這邊我們也聽聽就是委員的意見以上"},{"start":9353.038,"end":9369.489,"text":"主席跟各位人說明一下這個條文主要是有三個重點第一個就是基本的這個額度的調升那目前的話是四千四零四九啦那行政院的版本跟"},{"start":9371.19,"end":9389.821,"text":"幾位委員的版本大概都是把它提高到5000然後身障的話是6715這樣的話我們一年的支出要增加156.3億至於其他委員的版本那麼有6000的話調高到6000的話會增加到320億"},{"start":9391.482,"end":9414.812,"text":"那如果是到7000的話會增加483億到8000的話就會增加到650億左右如果是10000的話會增加933億就是近千億的規模所以這個額度的部分我們是希望能夠按照行政院的版本來調升那麼比照這個老農津貼一樣是23.5%"},{"start":9416.613,"end":9441.451,"text":"那第二個就是CPI的調整那是以四年為一次檢討的機制但是呢也新增了一個期中檢討就是兩年到的時候如果CPI的成長幅度超過3%也可以做調整所以這個條文最主要是有這三個重點那麼再請委員能夠支持行政院的版本"},{"start":9451.394,"end":9467.777,"text":"有兩個修法重點我一樣支持原本因為第一關於最低給付的保障金額的問題今年真的物價持續上漲可是現行我們的製作雖然設有每四年調整機制可是實際上因為基本的數額"},{"start":9468.817,"end":9497.597,"text":"偏低所以難以反應我們的通貨的壓力也不足以支應民眾最低的生活需求所以本次修法優先去調高那個基準的金額還有調整我們的條文的文字讓制度更貼近現實那我一直接到我們的身障朋友的陳情一直希望能夠調升相關經濟希望這次也能夠順利通過第二在調整機制上我們認為四年一次過於僵化所以現在新增如果每兩年"},{"start":9498.337,"end":9520.107,"text":"我們的檢討機制只要消費者的物價指數能夠成就假設成長達到3%的話就應該啟動調整也會讓制度能夠及時回應通膨的能力而不是讓弱勢的民眾被動承受物價的上漲我跟你講第三就是國民年金的核心精神事實上是保障經濟弱勢的基本生活所以本制度本來就不應該設"},{"start":9521.508,"end":9541.213,"text":"最低納保的年資門檻只要符合請領資格的話就應該可以領取年金不應該是有沒有涉及或是長期旅居國外而受到限制同時大本是調高的基本數額涉及到政府財政支出所以也要兼顧到"},{"start":9541.753,"end":9556.962,"text":"我們的財政紀律跟世代正義的問題所以我覺得新增的條件規範只要有符合一定的條件者才能領取調整後的比較高的金額所以簡單來說修法前已勤領者如果不符合新條件的話難應該維持原金額"},{"start":9560.064,"end":9578.725,"text":"修法后如果申请者必须符合原本资格跟新增条件才能够领取调整后之额如果不符合条件的话还是只能领取修法前的水准这样的设计是在照顾弱势和跟财政公平之间取得一个平衡所以事实上是支持院版因为这个看起来"},{"start":9579.286,"end":9592.422,"text":"院板已經有計算過說165.3億事實上是最能夠做財政負擔 否則的話到933億那個局在應該超過局在上限了好 以上好 謝謝林耀信 張偉好 王振興委員發言"},{"start":9598.322,"end":9617.532,"text":"謝謝主席我想這個五十四之一真的是非常重要而且非常核心的這次的修法內容剛剛我們部長也說明了非常清楚比較各個版本我們非常多的委員都有提供相關的版本那相較之下透過好的精算"},{"start":9618.112,"end":9632.691,"text":"在嚴守這個財政紀律還有兼顧這個世代正義我們不希望真的舉債超過上限造成對社會對於財務的衝擊所以看起來行政院版本應該是"},{"start":9633.852,"end":9652.888,"text":"相對來講在這麼多版本裡面是兼顧到社會正義跟我們這些民主與國民聯盟的需求所以我也很贊成用行政院版的內容來通過以上好 謝謝王正旭委員好 請黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":9654.877,"end":9679.044,"text":"好 謝謝 這個五十四條之一那最主要是建立幾副定期調整機制那我這邊就是說增訂CPI成長率達一定的門檻的時候提前調整的這個規定那國民年金就是基礎的保障型年金我們也希望就是說不要那麼僵化如果是在那個中央主計"},{"start":9681.245,"end":9706.536,"text":"這個機關發布的最近一年的消費者物價指數那如果相較於這個調整之前的一年的消費者物價指數成長達3%的時候應該要做一個調整而不受這個四年的這個限制那因為國民年金確實是一個基礎的一個保障年金那其實就是讓我們的民眾能夠有一個維持最低的一個生活水準所以我覺得說也不要太僵化能夠"},{"start":9707.536,"end":9726.522,"text":"隨著這個物價的這個來做一個調整好謝謝好謝謝那有請邱慧如委員發言謝謝主席那關於五十四條之一我們台灣民眾黨提出的修法的一個想法是就是關於那個額度國民年金的勤領額度那我們"},{"start":9727.842,"end":9754.992,"text":"就是在一般國民的部分就是希望能夠調升到五千元那如果是身障的國民年金希望能夠調升到六千二這樣子那當然這個數字我想是一個大摘文到底是要喊到什麼程度我覺得可能見仁見智有不同的看法那我們目前就是對於數字是初步這樣的想法那當然也可以聽聽各界對於這個數字所衍生出來的財務負擔的沉重度"},{"start":9757.074,"end":9778.556,"text":"來做進一步的調整這是關於額度的部分那再來就是因為國民年金如果每四年才做一次檢討其實這個期程有點過長那因為剛剛很多委員先進也提到說就是物價指數的成長然後通膨因素再加上其實各界也都在做調息那可能"},{"start":9779.136,"end":9796.528,"text":"如果國民年金還是原地踏步的話沒有逐年或者是每四年、每兩年來做一個檢討可能也會影響到請你國民年金者的實質的購買力那可能對於他們基本生活的維持就會產生一定程度的衝擊所以我們這邊主張說國民年金來做調整的期程從原本的四年這個把它縮短為兩年那這個是參考農民的退休儲金條例"},{"start":9806.255,"end":9835.875,"text":"所做的一個修正那除此之外就是參考的因素也調整的因素也參考了這個勞保的條例然後只要物價指數的成長率達到5%就應該啟動調整的機制這樣那這是關於我們台灣民眾黨所提出的版本那希望的就是能夠讓國民的實質購買力不要受到影響維持一定的生活水準以上說明"},{"start":9838.817,"end":9860.25,"text":"現在請王月明委員發言好54條之一這個是關鍵性的條文那因為很多委員有不同數的版本那我個人基本上行政院是有經過這個財力的精算覺得負擔得起所以他的版本是調高到5000然後身障是到6715那"},{"start":9862.791,"end":9878.3,"text":"原則上是尊重行政院提出來的版本但是我要講因為今天目前在現場有一些有提案的委員其實沒有在現場所以我是建議召委就是說因為前面也有一些相對性的調整的條文都是保留的"},{"start":9878.76,"end":9904.872,"text":"那這一條呢也是可以保留到這個朝野協商的時候也讓一些要爭取比較高的委員他們也可以聽到行政部門的意見就是說那個財力負擔是多少那他是不是仍然堅持他這樣的一個版本有一個更周延的討論那我要再次提醒就是國民年金事實上他在各項保險裡面他現在相對是"},{"start":9906.593,"end":9921.733,"text":"比較脆弱的因為他的保費繳交保費的人意願不高沒有達到50%我們很少看到我們任何一個保險是這樣的一個情況那所以他長期我覺得不只是今天我們討論就是說各項支出"},{"start":9924.256,"end":9952.624,"text":"大家都是基於善意希望可以再調高但是他的收入面怎麼樣去提高保費繳納的意願我覺得這個是我們中央政府一個很艱難的挑戰因為他從開辦到現在一直就呈現這樣這個狀態就是沒有辦法去提高他繳納保費的這個提高他的比率所以委員大家意見都很好想要去照顧更多弱勢的但是在這個層面上他本身他的體質"},{"start":9953.644,"end":9976.492,"text":"其實是蠻差的保費不到50%這個真的多數都是仰賴中央政府的一些收益不斷的挹注所以我希望這個因為今天有很多的條文都是保留的那回去之後包括剛剛像勞保局其實也提出蠻專業的意見就是大家把一些最專業的評估然後包括彩利"},{"start":9977.092,"end":9999.769,"text":"然後就是整體的建議我覺得這個要一個國民年金的修正我個人認為要更審慎一點因為他基本上他的保費收入就是很低的一個情況但是他想要照顧的對象又是相對沒有收入的一個弱勢本質開辦國民年金的利益良善但是這樣的一個保險"},{"start":10001.681,"end":10018.179,"text":"怎麼走下去更長更遠然後又符合很多委員大家希望說要照顧就是要不斷的調高然後去照顧我覺得它是一個蠻艱難的挑戰所以我希望回去之後你們在收入面同時可能也應該要"},{"start":10019.58,"end":10045.326,"text":"怎麼樣提高保費也應該要去改善那支出面怎麼樣是一個合理的在兼顧保障弱勢跟財力可負擔的情況底下就是做一個更審慎的評估我覺得這樣可能才是比較負責任對於整個國民年金保險制度走得更長更久我們應該要共同去思考的事情以上提供建議 謝謝謝謝王月明委員接下來請范瑩文發言"},{"start":10049.598,"end":10062.423,"text":"我的版本跟願版一樣就是從這個一般的年金從原本的3,500然後調整到5,000元那身心障礙年金的給付這個部分則是從原本的4,700調整到6,715元"},{"start":10066.264,"end":10090.731,"text":"那如同我剛剛一開始所講的其實這一次的這個條幅已經相當高那當然就是說可以理解有些委員希望能夠給更好的照顧那當然我也贊成就是說就是先保留那我想剛剛那個衛福部這邊有報告到舉債上限這個部分我們全盤來再評估一下好 以上好 謝謝 因為事後清雪沒有不在"},{"start":10091.411,"end":10119.807,"text":"他的版本大概是調整到8000元然後升薪大概是到1萬元那我看那個數額的論據非常大所以可能我們就建議先行保留謝謝這條保留第54條之一保留現在進行第55條的條文討論提案的委員有何欣淳委員等17人以上請為我部說明"},{"start":10121.017,"end":10145.354,"text":"好第55條的條文主要的部分是針對給付金額要抵扣抵這個欠費的部分那主要的這個委員只有何欣淳委員等17人的提案那主要的部分是希望能夠做抵扣那這個部分是行政院沒有修正的版本我們希望能夠建議維持原條文以上"},{"start":10147.103,"end":10169.775,"text":"我跟主席跟各位委員補充說明他的概念是這樣就是說你沒有繳保費等到比如說剛剛講說你要請領一個商帳補助的時候領下來的錢先扣掉你之前的保費餘額再給你可是他的問題是因為他這個有一個這個我們追繳的期限"},{"start":10170.956,"end":10196.365,"text":"所以等於是我一生都不用繳但是我最後領這一筆錢呢再去扣抵掉前十年呢就好所以這個其實是不符合公平的原則所以不應該是這樣是有繳的人才領而不是說我都不用繳等到我要領錢的時候我再把繳費抵掉這個已經喪失了保險的精神所以這個我們覺得不要修維持原條文好"},{"start":10197.486,"end":10211.996,"text":"可以嗎?那就維持現行條文好謝謝這要進行第59條討論提案的委員有蔡宇委員等17人王美惠委員等22人陳庭堆委員等16人"},{"start":10219.582,"end":10229.094,"text":"甄天才委員等17人,詹志龍委員等16人,廖偉祥委員等18人,張家俊委員等17人。以上,請外部說明。"},{"start":10233.232,"end":10254.304,"text":"59條是針對施行日期的條文那我想這個施行日期的部分呢是授權給我們行政單位來做一個相關的準備之後來由行政院來做相關的一個施行發布先做這樣的一個建議所以呢是以這個行政院版本為我們的請委員支持"},{"start":10254.738,"end":10282.115,"text":"好 剛才沒有唸那個是完整序文跟劉建國委員有提修正動議好 那我們就先行保留請問各位有沒有異議沒有那個主席 針對那個第55條的部分就是說那個請你年金就是開專戶那一次性的部分是不是也可以開專戶就第55條的部分開專戶就是剛才何欣淳委員的嗎對對對"},{"start":10292.836,"end":10310.628,"text":"是說明一下剛才委員所提到的這個開專戶的部分那我們在實務作業上是可以配合辦理的所以我們可以支持委員剛才所提到的建議以上是開專戶嗎第55條"},{"start":10320.461,"end":10321.883,"text":"我們是跟著社會維持現前條文"},{"start":10338.462,"end":10363.176,"text":"如果按照剛才委員所提到的一個建議的時候我們建議在現行條文55條的第二項我來跟大家報告這個文字依本法規定請領這個給付原來現在現行條文叫做年金給付我們把年金那兩個字拿掉在事務作業上是可以做到的以上報告來了"},{"start":10373.925,"end":10393.662,"text":"剛剛黃秀芳委員的意思是說現在因為很多社會保險保障一些有些被保險人他可能會被法院扣那個帳戶那以前現行的條文是只有年金給付可以排除被扣帳戶那有一些像剛剛大家討論的商帳給付那種一次性的給付呢"},{"start":10394.202,"end":10410.329,"text":"民眾是並不能向勞保局申請開立帳戶所以如果是一次性的給付他還是會去進入一般性的金融帳號那這種錢譬如說剛剛上帳給付十萬塊進去如果他有被法院強制執行的話他這個十萬塊就會被執行走沒辦法去"},{"start":10411.389,"end":10430.555,"text":"支付他的這個電帳費用就是其實有些其他社會保險其實也都是現在就是一致也有的把這一次性的給付也都列入保障這個被保險人給付的範圍那黃委員的意思就是可以考量這個尤其像商帳給付這種性質他甚至是"},{"start":10431.395,"end":10442.793,"text":"很這個救急啊所以說是不是可以讓這個傷脹脊膚的被保險人也可以跟勞保局申請開立專戶不會被這個行政執行或者是法院執行"},{"start":10444.32,"end":10468.123,"text":"應該這樣講我來補充說明這整個現行的條文第55條的現行條文呢它是這樣子它的第二項指的是說如果按照這個本法規定領到的年金給付跟53條所訂的給付它可以開立一個專戶進去然後第三項說這個專戶只要進這個專戶就不可以拿來做其他的"},{"start":10469.063,"end":10483.833,"text":"這個抵銷扣押或者是強制執行的標的就是不會被其他的債權人拿走啦概念是這樣那以目前的條文是只能有年金給付進莊戶保障他不會被拿去做其他債務請求"},{"start":10485.339,"end":10512.521,"text":"那但是呢剛剛黃秀安委員是說那本法本保險的不只只有年金給付啊還有其他像剛剛的一次性給付像有些是生育給付有些是像商帳給付有些是像遺囑給付那這些是不是都可以進裝戶不被這個這個剛剛提到的那些這個扣押啦或者是擔保強制等這樣"},{"start":10513.462,"end":10536.84,"text":"大概是這個概念啦我跟委員報告 縣民眾是他因為現在開專戶通常是到特定的金融機構啦譬如說郵局或土銀 他願意配合因為這作為比較麻煩那這些土銀或者是郵局他必須是我們公家單位 勞保局出具一個說"},{"start":10537.7,"end":10563.601,"text":"你可以開一專戶他才來辦理所以民眾會去檢附之下跟我們申請這個公文那目前依法令只有年金申請年金譬如老年年金傷障那個失能年金他是申請年金給付按月給付的我們才依法令這條五四條之一的第二項可以開給他假如現在一個民眾他是像剛剛部長說的如果是生育給付或者是傷障"},{"start":10564.501,"end":10589.879,"text":"這種一次性的因為它並不是法令所規定的年金給付那我們沒有法令依據可以開這個公文給民眾說你可以去開立專戶所以導致於現在實務上面一次性給付的被保險它還是只能用一般性的金融帳號入給付帳戶那這樣導致的風險就是說它如果這個帳戶已經被法院通知金融機構扣押的話"},{"start":10590.399,"end":10618.286,"text":"那我們給付的金額一進去他帳戶可能就會被金融站會扣押那所以事實上也有一些民眾是希望說一次性的給付是不是也可以比照年金可以開立專戶而專戶的話金融機構都還是用同一個戶頭他會合併可能不只是我們連社會福利可能也是都在他如果都是用郵局可能就用同一個帳號只是他可以接受社會福利也可以接受年金也可以接受一次只是因為現行法令中並不容許我們"},{"start":10619.626,"end":10640.197,"text":"用一次性 勞保局也不能用就是勞保局在給付帳戶的時候對於醫院法律沒有授權所以我們還是進一般的帳戶所以說如果說這次把年金放寬就變成說一次性的給付也可以開立帳戶的話這樣對於有一次性給付需求的人他也可以避免到他這個給付金額被法院扣押"},{"start":10641.892,"end":10650.569,"text":"那個是同意但是我的好奇是為什麼他不能在同一個帳戶裡面他年金幾付他一次性幾付他所有的幾付都在同一個帳戶啊"},{"start":10653.651,"end":10679.104,"text":"現在把它排除是 但是我有跟委員報告就是有時候他民眾譬如像生育給付他還沒領老年所以他他現在只有一次性給付的需要的時候他單獨來跟我們申請就是在前期的時候對 我依法我沒辦法同意他開一個一次性專戶那他就變得不能夠開專戶我們只能用一般性賬戶入賬那就的確是有這杯扣押的風險OK好請完證書委員發言"},{"start":10684.465,"end":10712.1,"text":"謝謝主席我想剛剛市部長還有我們勞動部的長官說明得非常清楚大家也知道說第55條的確在那個第二項的部分希望能夠把勤領年金幾戶就把年金這兩個字做做移除這樣就能夠符合我們期待的這個針對於相關的這個內容可以做完整的處理"},{"start":10712.6,"end":10729.48,"text":"那在程序上我們是不是需要請主管機關這邊寫一個修正動議讓大家共同來處理我重新宣告因為剛才是第55條是保留嘛那現在是請漢氏環修方委員這邊提一個修正動議為此先請調委"},{"start":10731.802,"end":10745.691,"text":"剛剛55條就是那個不予修正因為有核心存委員提出55條不予修正那現在我們等於是因為有這個條文的提案所以我們才有處理的空間所以我們趕快寫一個修正動議請在場的委員這個看黃學光有沒有要提修正動議"},{"start":10761.719,"end":10777.727,"text":"主席有個建議就是說因為何清淳委員他也本身有提案那是不是我們透過這個提案去做修正動議這樣可以把這個程序可以修正修正何清淳委員的提案內容這樣那就按照這樣子"},{"start":10779.437,"end":10792.521,"text":"那等他們來練一下不一樣的然後他又不在這不太好啦對"},{"start":10799.427,"end":10820.362,"text":"因為有這個條文有修正這個條文的提案因為有55條有委員提案所以我們可以提一個修正動議不是說用核心做委員用他的不太好我們就提一個修正動議現場的委員簽名就可以好不好好這個就利用這個機會這個其實大家的疑慮我尊重也可以修了"},{"start":10821.583,"end":10850.903,"text":"事實上如果從第一項來看不應該發生這種事情從第一項所以除非是說這個司法機關扣押錯誤所以這個部分為了防範我也不反對因為如果是這樣的話我就擔心因為不是只有這個法還有很多別的法律都有類似這樣的條文所以這部分也一併說明這也讓法務部了解"},{"start":10851.785,"end":10853.732,"text":"有什麼事嗎?沒有啦,他在搶阿伯的阿伯阿伯"},{"start":10892.003,"end":10911.373,"text":"這如果我丟一槍就好了對啊,你丟一副錯誤,是那個年紀也有刪除啦不是啊,那沒關係,沒關係,沒關係因為他打的就是,你那刪除的也不會打啊對啊,你說的是要讀啊沒關係啦,你這槍就好了"},{"start":10920.218,"end":10920.639,"text":"江峰委員簽名"},{"start":10960.59,"end":10963.572,"text":"沒有啦,稍微不是已經被簽名了嗎?稍微已經簽名啦"},{"start":10968.035,"end":10987.366,"text":"要先給稍微,稍微再聽聽看,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦,對啦"},{"start":11010.422,"end":11013.105,"text":"說完就沒了"},{"start":11023.983,"end":11032.033,"text":"這裏有蠻好看的,那裏有很多條紋。前面,就是釋迦書的上面。這裏沒有修到,我們來一起看。"},{"start":11045.914,"end":11066.883,"text":"好 因為前面有帶刀機 這邊有清水 應該可以清水來啦 主席 剛好你們都可以找我這一次的老闆給我拍一張照片可以一致同仁的公開這張照片可以幫我拍一張照片"},{"start":11095.992,"end":11099.334,"text":"好那就第15條按照魯憲議員等"},{"start":11103.715,"end":11106.241,"text":"8人修正動力通過"},{"start":11116.041,"end":11135.441,"text":"好 今天保留的條文很多涉及政府整體的財務負擔能力委員有要求為何不及主計單位先行帶回精算及研究以利後續條文審查所以我們今天是不是先討論到這邊再安排時間第二輪的審查請問各位委員有異議OK"},{"start":11139.701,"end":11151.731,"text":"我們作為一下決議 國民年金部份條文修正草案等37案尚未審查完略令則其繼續審查本次會議到此結束 現在上會"},{"start":11160.484,"end":11161.024,"text":"有沒有學商嗎?"}]}},{"id":"167732","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167732","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59340a22deccb9479531a176eedb5d66a3a11bc3fee5f78ef9bfec343d2020f60e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:00:12 - 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China 跨乎 PR然後香港或澳門他是把後面是跨乎是 PR China所以看得出來就是他其實把台灣跟中國大陸、香港、澳門已經有所區隔了嘛那現在外交部的立場是希望他把就是南韓我們現在也叫南韓把台灣變成 The Republic of China還是台灣"},{"start":62.743,"end":78.467,"text":"還是The Republic of China台灣還是怎麼樣因為在我們台灣裡面這個包括我們政府也都對我們這國家也好幾種稱呼啊有時候中華民國有時候中華民國台灣有時候台灣那你是希望那個韓國是要標示哪一個是以哪個為主還是三個隨便一個都可以"},{"start":83.035,"end":110.916,"text":"因為他現在是說你的下一個目的地跟你上一個這個地點這個把他寫成China他人家以為我們是要去中國啊沒有台灣啊你要說中華民國當然也很好啊所以如果是ROC是OK嘛ROC是OK的然後ROC台灣因為現在世界上認定的那個China尤其他這樣列法那當然就是我先確定一下嘛所以"},{"start":113.058,"end":125.595,"text":"他可能就是少了RO啦如果他是ROC然後台灣你就OK啦但是他如果是他如果是China 跨乎台灣因為實際上"},{"start":128.338,"end":140.915,"text":"應該也不會搞錯因為上面就是有寫台灣嘛因為我們的英文名稱也有China嘛The Republic不能這樣解釋那以後全世界都不知道我是要跟你確認啦我是要跟你確認說你是希望變成怎樣"},{"start":144.6,"end":154.023,"text":"就是ROC可以然後ROC台灣也可以然後台灣也可以嘛所以你是用這種最簡單台灣就是台灣嘛所以你是用這種方式跟他交涉但是不能China就直接台灣這樣人家會誤會誤會說是別的地方嘛因為為什麼我要這樣問呢因為我是不知道說外交部到底就是我們政府有沒有一個跟全世界的國家一致性的說法就是說你們以後稱呼我們就要稱呼什麼"},{"start":172.39,"end":192.148,"text":"那剛剛的部長的講去目的地是去台灣不是去中國的台灣剛剛部長的講法是說三個都可以啦三個都可以中華民國 中華民國台灣台灣都可以那其他國家到底知不知道這件事啊大部分國家都叫我們台灣啊因為你以為目的地去台灣喔丹麥就不是啦這個是其實是比較正常的啦所以你是用目的地來"},{"start":193.309,"end":206.814,"text":"在抗議 而不是以國家名在抗議你是以目的地是因為他把目的地搞錯怕我們的這個人家會搞錯地方去錯地方 你是基於這個原因去抗議不是因為他把我們的國家搞錯"},{"start":209.035,"end":228.629,"text":"因為你剛剛一直在扯目的地嘛所以部分是因為這個原因所以這是目的地的原因那你就是要跟大家講全世界講到底要稱呼我們什麼我覺得要講清楚那像比如說像丹麥的2020他是把國籍啦他是國籍不是目的地他是國籍他把台灣改成中國那你也有抗議嘛"},{"start":229.289,"end":235.733,"text":"駕照或者是其他的證件都會受影響那個部長我如果講喔丹麥是不是葛雲南是不是丹麥的還是美國的部長我現在只是講說就是我沒有支持你去抗議但是你要讓人家知道說什麼是可以什麼是不行嘛對啊如果是目的地的話那要寫清楚不然會走錯地方如果國籍的話那到底你要寫什麼對不對在我們這邊你們"},{"start":259.026,"end":272.283,"text":"政府就講三種說法其他國家更不會知道啊所以第一個你要講清楚嘛然後第二個我覺得我也不希望說我們跟南韓變成一種惡意螺旋那之前南韓的總統尹錫悅在宣布戒嚴的時候然後"},{"start":275.007,"end":293.609,"text":"執政黨、民進黨黨團就PO了篇文章他說南韓總統尹行越為了守護自由憲法宣布戒嚴然後說什麼南韓國會被親北韓勢力操控就是發文附和附和之後自己可能也覺得好像太建業興喜把它刪掉"},{"start":294.17,"end":316.028,"text":"但問題是南韓很多人就對這個很不滿奇怪了 我們國家被宣布戒嚴這是破壞民主的事情你們台灣的執政黨的國會居然在附和迎喜悅所以這個事情後來也不了了之我也沒看到好像民進黨有對這個事情做什麼處分但是當時南韓的輿論就對這件事情非常不滿"},{"start":316.949,"end":341.364,"text":"就覺得執政黨怎麼這樣,我們被戒嚴欸,那麼違反民主的事,居然台灣執政黨附和,很不爽啊那這個事情,今天這個事情當然他如果做一些事情我們不OK,我們去抗議我覺得正常可是也不希望說一直敵意螺旋,所以我們對於南韓除了有一些比較負面的互動之外你們也積極的想要化解一些敵意有沒有"},{"start":341.992,"end":370.645,"text":"報告委員我們是溝通溝通再溝通我們都是真的是希望大家能夠針對這個問題來解決所以他們本來是因為入境這個電子卡要整合紙本現在先暫停有這個時間我們才正視我們的問題所以我們不希望這樣的一個所謂的登記卡或者是這個去影響到"},{"start":373.547,"end":399.884,"text":"我知道你的做法我沒有說我現在講的是另外一個層面我是說因為最近好像跟南韓有一些比較負面的新聞出來外交部這邊有沒有也很積極的去跟李佳銘政府或什麼做一些比較正面的互動有沒有有啊 我們那個邱高偉代表以前是我當總統他是第三局局長他層次很高都有跟他們交涉現在至少見得到人以前"},{"start":401.229,"end":425.106,"text":"所以在跟南韓 他的外交部連科長都不見你啊而且很多公文的往來是真的是超乎我們一般外交的規範在處理的那如果變好了的話那為什麼電子不是單一事件但是我們在這個事情上要有說如果有往好的方向那理論上來講電子路徑卡這個事情就應該很好解決啊那為什麼會拖得那麼久"},{"start":425.766,"end":451.971,"text":"拖了一兩年因為你們是從去年開始就在跟韓國交涉所以感覺上應該可能跟韓國關係也不是你講這麼好的也有很好的地方啦真的我們也是在各個產業上也是有合作觀光旅遊文化各方面都有然後剛剛前面委員有問我們現在能不能增加邦交國因為我一直在什麼自由時報看到紅蘆拉斯的新聞"},{"start":453.211,"end":470.663,"text":"他很關心那個洪都拉斯白蝦賣得好不好嘛然後就一直講說洪都拉斯自從跟台灣但交之後那個白蝦賣不出去啊什麼的然後兩個禮拜前啊洪都拉斯的議長說要希望重新與台灣恢復外交關係那外交部這邊有沒有什麼回應啊"},{"start":472.967,"end":478.091,"text":"對洪都拉斯人家都那麼正面了我們也做好準備但是他們國家政府的決定什麼樣的一個決定我們當然是也都會溝通所以外交部這邊的態度是"},{"start":487.318,"end":516.141,"text":"反正我們就看看他怎麼說啦等到他白蝦賣不出去受不了來找我們不是白蝦啦是台灣模式其實阿斯普拉總統他很重視是醫療教育跟創造就業這三項他競選政見他他最重視而台灣的不然我的問題是說針對建交這件事啦就他們都已經有國內都那麼多這個呼籲那我們這有積極的去接觸還是說我們暫時按兵不動我們都有在持續溝通持續溝通中對所以你會有有什麼信心嗎就是"},{"start":516.621,"end":540.72,"text":"阿有一樣 前面那兩位也在問阿 就是說水到渠成嘛水到渠成 或者是說因為也會有很多干擾的因素嗎是宏都拉斯嗎 還是其他國家因為 說實在齁 那個中國跟那個之前那個宏都拉斯的那個政府 卡斯楚那個他們到底簽了些什麼東西阿 也是要釐清阿這個都是他們需要一點時間啦 因為有對外講啦然後華為在那邊的影響力也是很大"},{"start":542.18,"end":549.985,"text":"所以你的意思是說沒有像只有十八號他們想樂觀還是有一些因素來不需要克服我們應該說我們也是好 這樣就繼續努力好 繼續努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167726","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167726","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e5997c310dec7cfe94f31a176eedb5d66a304a79691f964029317444451dbb786d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:00:18 - 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主席有請林部長"},{"start":10.341,"end":17.947,"text":"部長午安喔這個從早上到現在剛好中午12點鐘了輪到我質詢謝謝我想幾個這個實事題喔我想前面的委員們都已經針對部長來進行質詢了不過有關於韓國的這一題喔我想進一步的來提醒的是確實喔韓國這樣的一個做法是傷害了蠻多台灣朋友尤其是台灣年輕朋友的感情因為我們都知道不論是這個韓國的娛樂產業來台灣發展"},{"start":39.824,"end":44.087,"text":"這個很多的這個女子團體啊等等來這邊開演唱會台灣的年輕人都很支持那麼台灣到韓國去旅遊的年輕人更多那麼這樣的一個做法其實確實會到我們造成一些影響而且是民間的交流是非常熱絡的"},{"start":57.216,"end":75.254,"text":"我想要比較具體的來提出來是說其實韓國的民間對於台灣同樣比如說我們去的很多但是韓國來這裡根據我剛剛特別要了一個最新的資料是如果以去年來看的話韓國是訪台的人數是第三名那麼在今年來講的話韓國已經躍升為第一名了"},{"start":78.357,"end":103.936,"text":"言下之意兩邊的交流互動是非常頻繁的就像部長您剛剛也說了我們在外交上面就是多交一點朋友那麼我是非常肯定就是說外交部這些年來不斷地在透過所謂雙邊互惠的方式包括我相信現在很多的年輕朋友可能去韓國是可以直接用快速空關那麼我們也看到了兩邊的這個互惠的狀況呢是持續在增加我比較想問的是"},{"start":106.238,"end":135.244,"text":"在我們跟一些國家雖然也許在正式的公文交流上面確實受到一些阻礙但是在實質上面的這些互惠是有進展的首先包括像我們現在的這些動作會不會影響到接下來包括我們雙邊互惠使用所謂的快速的空關 自動空關這樣的一些比較實質的部分那麼第二個問題當然就是我們也看到2025年連紐西蘭其實我們也都有快速的空關我現在列出來的像"},{"start":136.224,"end":146.838,"text":"美國、澳洲、義大利、德國、新加坡、馬來西亞可是可能很多朋友並不知道啦但是如果有商務上使用的人會了解那麼在這個部分部長你怎麼來研判"},{"start":148.986,"end":176.747,"text":"其實台灣的關係是很密切也相當有互補性所以我想作為政府我們都是在促進就是不然人流物流金流交通流等等但是因為涉及到我們國家的這個地位因為這涉及到兩邊他單方面這樣子用我們認為這不適合我們也跟他交涉他現在也知道就是在處理中"},{"start":178.218,"end":187.063,"text":"所以在這個部分我必須要肯定的是說其實在被拉高成為政治層次的問題的時候或外交層次問題的時候當然我們必須要展現我們國家應有的主權的對外發聲但是持續的民間交流的部分我們也當然希望不要受到影響因為兩邊可以看得出來彼此之間的交往民間是很熱絡的"},{"start":203.191,"end":208.037,"text":"那麼另外一個我要肯定的是其實這兩天包括16 17號有這個第九屆的玉山論壇那麼我知道外交部包括部長在內都非常的忙碌然後呢包括19號就是今天還有台北國際的智慧城市論壇"},{"start":220.772,"end":246.87,"text":"雖然說是掛台北國際智慧城市論壇啦但是很多外交的訪兵也都是外交部在做協助言下之意就是我們都知道中央政府怎麼預算卡住但是外交的工作不會停止本席特別就是處理了整理了一下就是外交部現在的幾個新興計畫包括部長一直提到的榮邦計畫還有國際交流活動跟訪兵的部分以及包括民眾最關心的就是護照印製跟領入服務包括還有駐外"},{"start":251.012,"end":258.979,"text":"單位的營運經費龍總統統加起來呢這些計畫是不是會因為真的總預算到現在還沒有審理而受到影響那麼尤其是我特別畫紅線的是可信賴的網路跟數位治理還有就是我們主權AI這個部分剛剛前面這個在野黨的委員也特別提到了不論是國防或外交不要把政治擺進來"},{"start":275.051,"end":295.786,"text":"可是事實上一直以來不是我們要擺政治進來而是中國不斷的給壓力或者是在國際間讓我們穿小鞋或者是施壓跟我們在民間交流上面非常好的單位所以說像這個包括剛剛特別提到的有關於伊朗戰爭美伊戰爭的過程當中這種所謂撤僑的行動這種所謂的中國的認知作戰不是我們發起的啊"},{"start":304.952,"end":334.632,"text":"是他們在發動我們要防守我們只好做澄清我們只好強調沒有這樣的事情所以現在包括兩個非常重要那包括我們台灣在主權上面的AI的辨識中國不斷的在為資料我們一定也要有所動作那麼這兩筆的預算目前是沒有辦法動之的時候會造成哪些影響那外交部這裡部長這裡有沒有什麼其他的可以來做的部分"},{"start":335.793,"end":353.345,"text":"好 報告委員 龍幫計畫很多是新興計畫所以必須要立法院通過預算我們才能夠啟動所以當然會影響 因為現在已經是三月了嘛因為很多事情是需要去做討論跟對方能夠來同意之後一起來推動 那也需要預算"},{"start":354.886,"end":375.932,"text":"所以您剛提到 比如說現在大家其實台灣在智慧城市展裡面很重要的就是數位治理我們提供了智慧解決方案從智慧城市 智慧交通 智慧醫療這個是人家看上台灣想跟我們交往那我們當然不把它列入榮邦計畫就是所謂的可信賴網絡跟數位治理另外當然有非常多這些新興項目會影響"},{"start":377.873,"end":401.863,"text":"那國際交流因為我們報告也有寫到為什麼這兩年大量增加是我在上任第一年之後我就解開了過去的平均分配然後邀訪的預算很少所以你知道我們歐洲31個管處像德國我們還有三個是辦事處一個代表處有一些一年邀不到一個團體因為沒有預算那我就是說我來找錢大家盡量去因為你要去諮商國會議員來"},{"start":404.064,"end":429.061,"text":"你也有單位包括波蘭的國會議員的這個友好小組真的需要花個好幾個月時間人家也要考慮他可以來所以為什麼我們現在有一些突破也是因為這兩年大院的支持啦那我們有增加一些項目所以這個去國際交流跟訪兵比如像我們現在玉山論壇完再去凱達格蘭論壇那半年後要舉辦我們現在就是要找到"},{"start":430.291,"end":436.896,"text":"邀請了貴賓的時候確實會預算會影響我們所以說本席還是認為在這個部分我們包括現在的智慧城市的這個論壇裡面大家會希望跟台灣有做一些更多的合作而這樣的合作其實不是只是單一面向的台灣付出預算跟經費在這個部分其實台灣獲得跟國際友人的合作的時候也是帶領著我們的企業"},{"start":456.571,"end":466.714,"text":"包括我們這些網路的資訊安全的資通的企業其實有機會落地到這些沒有邦交的國家我認為這個點必須要透過部長這裡或是透過外交部讓外界知道不然的話又會被講說哎呀我們就是撒錢啦我們又是凱既外交"},{"start":476.716,"end":490.802,"text":"原住到轉成去投資就是榮邦計畫其實效果已經出來了包括帛琉還有包括巴拉圭甚至好幾個國家像在波蘭跟菲律賓波蘭的外交部長他是副總理在國會"},{"start":492.583,"end":509.518,"text":"他在這個報告的時候是第一次正式提到台灣是科技上合作的戰略夥伴那更不用講菲律賓解除了對台灣的交往這些都是非邦交國最重要的就是我們這個龍邦計畫的項目跟它可以對接的很好這個東西有一些計畫必須要盡快來啟動所以我也是"},{"start":512.781,"end":528.434,"text":"懇求我們大院如果盡早鋪圍之後我們的外委會可以盡快的審查因為現在已經三月在下去之後因為外交都需要很多諮商的時間我想幫部長下一個結論就是我現在所羅列的這些部分它確實它是一種投資"},{"start":529.215,"end":543.729,"text":"他並不是過去大家對於說我們在外交上面的付出認為是所謂撒幣這個都是一種投資投資回來的是對於不只是我們台灣的主體被看見台灣被看見之外我們也是可以就像您所說的榮邦計畫可以把這個更多的這個產業企業可以往外走"},{"start":550.035,"end":568.728,"text":"那另外一個我要關注的題目是我們現在看到的是有關於海外的這個急難救助的部分因為當大家都有提到就是伊朗戰爭的部分本席在民間聽到的蠻多的是很多人他早就已經計畫好了要到中東國家來做旅遊"},{"start":570.589,"end":578.116,"text":"那麼有一些是自己訂的沒有問題但是有一些呢是跟了旅行社那旅行社現在就會跟他們講說你要退錢可以啊你不去也可以啊但是訂金不退甚至於還要要求他們額外做一些付費跟負擔那麼當然旅行社是跟這個外交部沒有關聯啦是跟這個交通部比較觀光署相關的比較有關聯"},{"start":591.027,"end":620.587,"text":"但是本席在這裡提醒的是喔對於民眾自發性的自己在面對現在的這樣一個中東的局勢跟狀況外交部除了市警之外我們是一個自由的國家我們不可能限制人民說啊那要賣去那要賣塞去我們只能用燈號來做市警可是第一個包括救助的系統如何的讓民眾了解如何來救援求援之外是不是外交部也應該跟交通部相關的單位對於這些有一些業者"},{"start":621.408,"end":628.816,"text":"他們用這種方式逼得已經付錢的這個國人我訂金買就算了我還要再額外"},{"start":630.178,"end":654.199,"text":"補一筆什麼費用那像這樣的狀況會逼著民眾往前走那這個部分有沒有可能透過外交部交通部能夠了解有沒有這樣的狀況因為我現在看到問題的關鍵我舉個例子分享當然我是外交部長我不是先前的交通部長不過在這個所謂武漢肺炎疫情發生的第一時間我們要"},{"start":656.041,"end":677.128,"text":"管制禁止一些航班那也影響到旅行社這些旅行社其實都很有組織我們可以跟他們的工協會討論做適當的一個補貼然後他們少損失一點但也不要多由他們出不然他們會轉嫁給旅客啊旅客就說我不去我就"},{"start":678.048,"end":697.729,"text":"這就虧啦可是我去又有一些風險啊那我覺得在這個關鍵時刻我想大家都了解啦政府如果可以出面跟透過旅行社然後讓這一些已經訂票要出遊的大家都能夠減少一點損失啦這個可能會"},{"start":698.59,"end":720.808,"text":"避免現在又有不少人又要去杜拜這個也是一個對我們外交部來講自由的才處理完2400多個現在新的又一直出現這個是因為已經戰爭發生三個禮拜了不是說剛發生所以我也不能說請大家都不要去因為我們是一個法治的社會所以倒是"},{"start":722.309,"end":737.938,"text":"一個整體算一下看多少預算可以處理所以這是委員您的建議我是非常支持特別提出來質詢就是說因為剛剛前面好多委員都在講是不是處理好了有沒有處理完了好現在也都講了都處理好了那我們現在就是要面對這樣的狀況因為戰爭什麼要停止我們無法決定"},{"start":740.64,"end":759.312,"text":"但是至少我們要認知到確實在民間還有可能潛在的會進行旅遊或移動的那這裡本席通過質詢也要提醒外交部雖然這不是外交部主責但是外交部似乎必須要跟交通部來做一個通盤的了解好嗎那因為時間到了後面還有委員所以我的質詢就到這裡好謝謝那把你們公布的狀況是不是再讓本席以及委員會知道好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167728","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167728","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59d81c3ff4142b758e31a176eedb5d66a304a79691f9640293c85f38e9dc6d1ac45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:21:33 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已經很多的討論那我現在直接問部長"},{"start":161.994,"end":176.661,"text":"到今天為止我們在中東在這樣的一個戰爭位限制下我們還有多少僑民或是我們的國人同胞要回來台灣還沒有回來到目前為止還有人嗎"},{"start":177.481,"end":186.573,"text":"沒有,因為我們有公佈三個數字嘛,已經協助回來的,然後有續舊的我們都隨時密切注意,至少我們在地的這些僑民"},{"start":194.463,"end":211.227,"text":"我們都掌握到他們目前都沒有我們都主動聯繫是不是但至於說觀光旅遊因為有出有進進進出出又有一些新的我們現在也請交通部跟觀光署跟旅行社能夠密切聯繫把這個資訊跟我們同步"},{"start":213.39,"end":228.629,"text":"保護你們國人在海外人生生命的安全碰到這樣的一個戰爭或是這個緊急的狀況外交部當然就是第一線要來擔負起這個責任那過去"},{"start":233.314,"end":240.181,"text":"我們對包機,我們曾經有包機過,包括過去我的資料來講,過去我們曾經在"},{"start":246.57,"end":270.351,"text":"俄武戰爭,還有在以色列跟哈馬斯的衝突,我們曾經都有這樣的一個例子。但是,這一次在我們的中東,每一個戰爭,我們根本把這個包機,讓國人可以回來這個部分,我們把它列為,甚至沒有把它列為備案,都直接,"},{"start":272.013,"end":297.713,"text":"做保持說有聯繫協助更改機位更改航班做這樣的當然這很多是旅行團的我知道你早上已經解釋很多但是我要談的今天我們不管旅行團不管國人他可能透過國際友好國家包括日本就是有有協助我們了解但是我們有部分是由大陸這邊幫忙好"},{"start":299.734,"end":310.71,"text":"為了國人的生命安全其實能夠平安的回到台灣是最好的但是我這邊就要有一點還是要跟我們執政黨做一個說明明明回來了我們還是要用任職作戰來處理"},{"start":317.512,"end":343.262,"text":"還是要用任職作戰來處理包括部長你早上也提包括我們講南韓韓國我們有一些網路的聲音部長還是會把他導引說這是網民的任職作戰等等等我在這裡講部分啦一開始不是啦我覺得我們做一個執政黨我們還是要很正面的很正面的去處理我們國人同胞的安全"},{"start":344.062,"end":370.432,"text":"所以我在這邊強烈建議我們以後過去有日本合作有一個經驗我們也曾經透過美國的幫忙我們外交部應該要有一個跨國的協作來精進保護我們的國人同胞在國際上國外有生命危險立刻要護橋撤橋能夠來做一個SOP一個標準的一個這個流程"},{"start":371.292,"end":393.705,"text":"部長 這樣OK嗎我跟委員報告幾點 第一點行政院是有召開過會議有關於要不要包機或專機去所謂撤僑或護僑但是後來行政院的決定並沒有這是行政院的決定 但是這一外交部這位我們都是準備好 我們的外交部應該要去把"},{"start":396.186,"end":397.087,"text":"我跟委員舉這個例子比如說以色列我們是隨時跟其他國家派駐的大管"},{"start":418.046,"end":419.528,"text":"我們會把他當作重點因為我們自己做不到的有些有謀可能"}]}},{"id":"167729","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167729","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e598127969074ebb27f31a176eedb5d66a304a79691f9640293172f596e3a4508175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:28:33 - 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我會來加以了解我想雙方面 卓院長已經有公開講 他這是私人行程然後對方 他們的觀光長官 他們也有提到根據我方講這是私人行程 所以他們也沒有"},{"start":137.174,"end":159.701,"text":"我想那個部長可能要趕快去了解因為按照這個披露的內容是說因為日方得知在這個卓院長的這個團裡面還有發言人與攝影官也在訪團名單之中所以呢讓日方質疑是不是有意要對外來揭露"},{"start":161.522,"end":184.292,"text":"因為他們希望的是低調 我剛講不要有任何surprise所以請部長可能要趕快的去了解 好不好所以其實我想你可能也有耳聞因為這個說法其實這一陣子事實上在我們台日之間一直都有一些傳聞另外有一件比較重要的事情是要請教部長"},{"start":185.592,"end":190.433,"text":"因為呢今天3月19號再過兩個月就是賴總統就職兩週年如果我們看過去啊過去包含蔡英文總統或者馬英九總統他們在就職兩年的時候呢他們都已經先後的以所謂的元首外交出擊"},{"start":207.717,"end":226.126,"text":"那都已經對外出訪已經達到五次不管馬總統或蔡總統那陳水扁總統呢他比較少是起碼也有三次可是到目前為止賴總統幾乎都一直宅在國內所以呢我想請問一下部長"},{"start":227.006,"end":240.632,"text":"在520賴總統就職兩週年之前賴總統有沒有機會能夠出訪否則這樣比一比實在次數太少那會讓人家質疑賴總統的元首外交做得不夠"},{"start":242.519,"end":267.718,"text":"報告委員我們當然在評估中是有收到斯瓦帝尼政府的邀請因為他們是有重大的慶典其他當然也有一些有我們的友邦有表達邀請以前我們有時候元首出訪說一般國事訪問也會比較配合慶典因為這樣子所以現在都會去"},{"start":269.9,"end":278.991,"text":"我們還在評估中因為說4月4月那就是在520之前如果4月是在5月之前對沒有錯所以確實有機會去"},{"start":283.858,"end":305.709,"text":"其實今天很多人問到有關於韓國的對我們的電子入境卡用中國台灣方式我們予以反制那當然在網路上網路上有人講說那不如改南朝鮮不然的話其實就直接改高麗高麗當年因為她的宗主國是中國"},{"start":307.47,"end":322.29,"text":"這當然是網友認為說今天既然我們要反制就要讓人家覺得我們的憤怒否則僅僅是這種改一個男孩不痛不癢無法來顯示然後讓"},{"start":324.332,"end":349.386,"text":"這個韓國知道我們對這件事情的憤怒那另外一個比較好具體的當然其中有一個比較我們最擔心的事情因為原來他是在二月底他就要取消好紙本的入境卡好那個如果取消紙本入境卡的話那變成我們只能要去韓國只有這個先這個電子入境卡不過他現在呢要延後"},{"start":350.286,"end":359.133,"text":"要延後所以我要說啊我們抗議聲音大一點我們兇一些我們在意一些當然對韓國來講他至少如果採取雙軌並行的時候那國人可以可以做選擇所以我想請問部長在我們的交涉過程裡面有沒有要求如果韓國拒不"},{"start":373.326,"end":382.423,"text":"我們的這個中國台灣的這樣的民意是不是要求韓國不要取消資本入境行我們認為"},{"start":384.676,"end":413.869,"text":"就是最根本的方法還是要正視我們的立場我們倒不是用憤怒的方式我們是用不斷的跟他諮商一開始他不太理我們最近開始有反應了就剛剛委員講的本來2月就要把那個資本取消他們至少先保留那有些人事緩則遠所以我們就開始跟他在交涉那交涉的時候我們也設了一些時間跟方案那也先尊重他讓他知道就是說你做什麼我們會做什麼"},{"start":414.609,"end":426.947,"text":"你不做什麼 我們大概也會做什麼市長 這件事其實我們真的要高調反應你知道台灣是韓國就是它的旅遊市場裡面我們的客源排第幾大嗎"},{"start":429.723,"end":454.517,"text":"我們是前三大我們是前三大所以當然我們的反應他們要重視啊當然也許我們不一定要把他搞到說我們今天就抵制韓國不去韓國什麼的之類也不要弄到說好像你去韓國你就變成不愛台灣我覺得不需要做這樣的操作但是"},{"start":455.558,"end":469.161,"text":"其實韓國有一種聲音希望南韓政府應該要從善如流改掉對我們的稱呼所以這個已經有產生他們大部分的韓國人也覺得他們政府那樣做就是搞混了我們一年去韓國超過180萬人次我們是他的第三大的客源國"},{"start":480.143,"end":495.552,"text":"那當然我們今天就是用比較理性的方式去做溝通那我覺得所以你今天變成是一個變成我們給他改成男孩你當然會被我們自己的網友笑嘛就覺得你這種改名有什麼不痛不癢"},{"start":496.272,"end":523.954,"text":"所以我覺得這件事情它既然發生一種啦老蔣我的建議有種是鴕鳥建議啦就是說你至少紙本你要維持住你讓國人我有機會選擇不然你通通都是用電子入境卡是可能就會覺得說那我到底要去不去我覺得這是老蔣我這種建議是比較鴕鳥式的但是呢我還是希望我們既然要做抗議"},{"start":524.774,"end":549.467,"text":"就不要做半套 好不好不然的話你這樣子真的會被國人笑啦好不好 但就決一點 真的啊改南朝鮮 改高磊啊在歷史上他確實曾經啊什麼大宋高磊 什麼大元高磊什麼都有過啊 對不對我們不希望去開啟這種什麼樣的外交的這種征戰但是呢 我覺得基本的互惠這是必須要維持的 好不好好 對等跟尊嚴對 好 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人數大概多少"},{"start":73.788,"end":94.977,"text":"報告委員,這當然我們有統計到2400多人有協助的其中有些是在地僑民或台商或學生另外有一些是因為轉機過境的旅客前面那個部分我們都聯繫的很好第一時間我們都有建立通訊的那個時間多少?大概你們那個時間"},{"start":95.737,"end":116.631,"text":"我們幾乎在因為這個中東的戰事發生也不是今天所以我們大概所有的這些外館我們總會有八個相關的館處在這個地方我們都有一個群組也密切聯繫所以第一時間就已經都會跟這個僑民或者說在地的這些台灣人保持聯繫那他們也會回報那至於說"},{"start":118.112,"end":137.946,"text":"後面出去旅遊要回來或是這一些當然我們涉及到交通部跟觀光署啊對旅行社這邊的聯繫那我們在做會診部長為什麼要問這些問題因為我們在撤僑的過程因為常常會發生中東的一些戰事的問題太多了"},{"start":138.746,"end":161.866,"text":"有很多我們台灣國人在橋外裡面萬一發生要他回台的時候你們外交部扮演的角色非常的重要所以在第一時間在應變中心在因應的這樣一個狀況我們要很清楚大概我們在應變因應的時間裡面大概有多少的時間"},{"start":162.546,"end":191.482,"text":"所以這個是我要問你的問題是 我剛剛同仁有進一步說明從3月1號開始嘛 從陸陸然後另外後續陸續的包括從以色列到阿聯酋都有對 好 那所以這個就是我們外交部當然外交部扮演的這個角色非常重要但是我們也應該不能孤精的來奮戰外交部孤精來奮戰也要其他的部會"},{"start":192.582,"end":219.009,"text":"相同的大家一起來協助外交部在駐外的這樣一個狀況來幫忙這些僑胞那個撤僑因為以下待會我要講的就是因為撤僑的考驗不只是外管臨時應變的能力也是對制度熟練程度的一個檢視理論上外管都會有緊急應變的計畫那為了遭遇緊急事件能夠"},{"start":220.57,"end":242.907,"text":"計劃安排那平時還要做到什麼要定期更新僑胞的名冊和建立聯絡網所以相信這些外交部都有在做但只是做了多少考量到許多外館人力有限本席比較擔心平時是否有落實包含非戰鬥人員和僑胞這裡的一個"},{"start":247.09,"end":265.837,"text":"演練,這就是我擔憂的地方那另外我想請問一下駐外的外管處是否每一年都有安排撤僑的演練那頻率是多少?頻率是多少?部長我們因為有緊急應變計畫那也會針對新的情勢做這個應變的演練至於"},{"start":276.38,"end":305.6,"text":"那個每一個地方的情況要帶來跟他戰爭的情形像以色列我們就沒關係這個這樣子你就把這些相關的資料這個外交部提供相關的資料給我好不好好的那這樣的話我就比較知道你們大概多少的頻率在演練的過程裡面這樣我們就很清楚只要是有發生任何在國際發生這個戰事的時候我們的外交部在駐外的演練"},{"start":306.44,"end":333.428,"text":"的頻率大概還有在應變的一個好應變的能力大概有沒有隨時在激動激動時要面對著國際的情勢好不好好那另外就是在過去的國際上的典範典範的案例例如2006年的韓國的黎巴嫩這巧的行動2021年美國在阿富汗的喀布爾"},{"start":334.128,"end":346.139,"text":"這個撤離的行動2023日本在蘇丹的撤僑行動所以本席發現他們有一個共同的點是一他們事前都經過實際的演練第二"},{"start":350.183,"end":376.713,"text":"都會安排由經濟或國營民航機的撤僑第三將撤僑的撤僑的列為國家安全層級的跨部會行動這不是只有外交部的一個單一的責任所以部長你們有沒有這個整個像這樣的一個過程不是只有你們外交部單一的責任"},{"start":377.353,"end":380.618,"text":"那是不是要尋求其他的各部會的一些協助"},{"start":381.95,"end":406.452,"text":"報告委員所以行政院也有政府協助里外國人跟僑民緊急應變的處理原則也包括這個所謂的緊急避難作業程序那我們外館也都會因地制於訂定包括撤僑在內的緊急應變計畫滾動式的檢討修正那當然每個國家的情形不太一樣因為我們其實跟很多國家都沒有邦交過甚至我們在當地的館處"},{"start":407.873,"end":427.391,"text":"有一些也不具有這麼樣的外交上面的特權所以在處理上我們會跟我們的友盟保持密切聯繫像我們看到包括這一次日本他也會跟我們諮商有沒有需要所以這一個也是台灣比較處境特別的地方至於說"},{"start":428.872,"end":454.247,"text":"行政院也是有這個機制跨部會我們也都在群組裡面那也有開會那如果要涉及撤僑那會涉及到交通工具那就是屬於交通部那因為如果說是要旅行社他帶的旅客那這個當然就涉及到觀光署所以確實是除了就是需求啦有沒有這樣子的一個我們僑民的需求我們要調查了解這是外交部做得很好"},{"start":454.887,"end":483.452,"text":"幾乎都列車每一個人第一時間的狀況然後就是說他們怎麼去避難我們都有掌握但至於說是旅客因為過境啦或是那個這個部分我們就需要交通部觀光署的參與跟協助我也希望是這樣子啦那當然本席過去訪官來觀察我國過去撤僑的一個狀況通常會有一初期的撤僑速度太慢第二非常依賴外國的協助第三"},{"start":483.982,"end":500.724,"text":"缺乏政府其他部會的協助以上第一個狀況可能和缺乏真實的策巧的演練有關第二情況是因應因為我們我國受到特殊的國際的因素的限制"},{"start":501.604,"end":523.89,"text":"這是一個客觀條件限制的無奈那第三這巧是外交部部門的孤精奮戰所以其他部會的參與被動和協助不足甚至行政院可能都沒有主動協調其他部會協助所以這個就是我們的盲點在這裡啊所以我要點出的問題請部長"},{"start":525.67,"end":553.599,"text":"能夠清楚我們應該在跟行政院加強的橫向聯繫萬一有發生任何在國外間撤僑的時候我們外交部除了第一個主動出擊幫忙撤僑第二一定要請行政部門來相關的來做一個協助這樣的話外交部才不會孤精奮戰孤精作戰好不好"},{"start":554.119,"end":557.302,"text":"我們會不斷的來精進特別是跟行政院也有個機制我們來反映委員很好的一個寶貴的觀察跟這個指導比較安心嘛好不好那另外就是我常常聽到這個駐外人員齁提到就是這個"},{"start":572.557,"end":595.603,"text":"各部會協調的問題顯示一個國家涉及到外事務主要是由外交部負責但不單純是外交部的事務我國的駐外單位也不只是有外交部例如111年1月退部會在首度派員駐美強化以退伍軍人組織的一個聯繫經濟部、國安局"},{"start":598.751,"end":624.124,"text":"衛福部等也都會有駐外的人員在國外但目前除了外交部以外還有外派駐外人員的部會有哪些大概有多少人報告委員當然主要是經濟部啦國科會文化部然後也當然特定領域剛剛講的包括退伍會有些也有那教育部也是主要我們總體上來講"},{"start":627.881,"end":641.133,"text":"有628人是駐外那目前在其實各部會在本部大概所謂借用我們的員額大概35人這幾個數字"},{"start":647.853,"end":675.623,"text":"沒關係你這個給我一份好不好那另外就是因為實驗因素在請主席再給我一分鐘那我國派駐國外的使團然而是否受到這個這個住在國這個在國限制在國的限制那另外就是那外派的人員以外其他部會外派的人員使用且而是否他們自己和住在"},{"start":676.859,"end":691.383,"text":"駐在國令另外的一個協議還是由外交部的援俄借給他們借援俄的情況非常嚴重大概有多少 民策也給我一份好不好我跟委員補充報告我正在處理這個問題因為"},{"start":693.684,"end":716.056,"text":"借用名額或用這個預算其實從總和外交的角度來講我們應該整體的去檢視現在的外管或110個外管然後需要的人力跟他的預算那做一個整體的規劃我也想大大院的支持是很重要那我們不是歐洲專案我們去年跟人事總署溝通嘛 協調他就有跟我們增加院額"},{"start":716.476,"end":741.592,"text":"那外交官要經過考試、訓練那是很冗長的事情那所以各部會過去在駐外管我們怎麼去整合發揮館長制整體的總和外交的效果制度面我們也在變革但是在人的緣額還有預算上我們也是希望說一次性的、完整的能夠找到解決的方法因為外管的業務非常的繁忙那大多數的外管"},{"start":743.113,"end":760.018,"text":"管署都有一個人身兼數職啊吼 調來調去然後調來然後借用然後又回到本職這樣的一個狀況對外管實在是不公平啦所以這個你們要通辦一個檢討那對外管應該要專職在他本職的工作"},{"start":765.68,"end":782.337,"text":"很多現在駐外的提醒給我很多的一些建議那駐外的人不能身兼數職然後呢自己本職除了做之外還要兼到其他的部會裡面這樣對他們來講是不公平的好不好你們要通盤檢討"},{"start":783.618,"end":806.392,"text":"好 我也期待我們除了外領人員的這些條例之外有一個外交人員的服務法像美國它就有這個Foreign Service Act我想也有很多委員表達關心我們也請一些專家學者在指導能夠建構一個台灣現在是很特別因為我們真的是各國都想跟我們來往"},{"start":807.455,"end":824.129,"text":"那就是透過我們外館 可是我們外館的能量如果不足或者是您剛剛講的因為一人間素質還有他們的工作上面的環境 權益這也是我作為外交部長很重要的一個工作這敬請大院能夠支持 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有請秘書長"},{"start":13.069,"end":27.9,"text":"委員長好 秘書長早這是本席第一次質詢考試院我想關心我長期關心的議題當然我想先從最近報導不知道秘書長有沒有看到最近一直有媒體報導公務員提早退出職場的狀況"},{"start":31.903,"end":59.35,"text":"有當然我相信您一定有在了解各種原因今天我想針對其中一個潛在的我很關心的原因就是職場霸凌想問就是考試院目前的狀況我想我們都看到考試院修正公部門的職安新制去年7月上路到現在大概已經有9個月了請問一下祕書長您覺得目前做得如何"},{"start":60.39,"end":86.638,"text":"目前就是立法之後主要工作就在各項制度機制的建立那保訓會這邊也充實了人力要來處理好這個業務那當然跟各機關人員訓練等等很多工作我是不是請主委跟您詳細說明沒關係 細節可以先不要講那請問秘書長那你們有沒有一個自我評估的機制譬如說一年或是半年知道自己做的怎麼樣請主委來說明"},{"start":90.681,"end":102.651,"text":"公務員報告您剛提到的自我檢視的機制大概我們有分成幾個部分第一個就是我們從去年的安慰辦法從去年修法通過以後"},{"start":105.193,"end":128.382,"text":"連續已經發出三次的這個調查表那確定就是說各機關都有依照我們的規定還有相關的指引來這個完成應該所做的部分那這是第一個就是我們去了解現場的情況那跟委員報告就是目前所有的機關全部都已經依照這個規定組成了機關內的這個安全及衛生防護委員會然後呢這個相關課程的訓練"},{"start":132.803,"end":153.532,"text":"觸及率呢也這個基本上呢達到了九成五以上那第二個部分是我們自我審視的部分那我們在機關裡面呢我們定期都會這個就各機關還有公務人員他們會其實這個陳如委員所提到這是大家很關心友善職場的最基本面所以呢他們所有的這個基層的"},{"start":154.753,"end":155.694,"text":"你剛講的那個是不是那個自我檢核表"},{"start":172.685,"end":195.88,"text":"自我檢核表是其中機關需要填的一份表單也就是法律上規定每年3月底前要報送到保訓會的那張表單這個部分如果你們因為你剛說95%都有達成那如果有相關的統計可以讓我知道一下好不好好 跟委員報告目前陸陸續續都在回收中因為今天是3月19嘛19對 那目前呢這個"},{"start":199.815,"end":213.994,"text":"部分的這個機關其實他們都很還蠻早都沒有像我們這個退退到最後的時候因為我覺得對我來講時間沒有那麼急就是做好比較重要那你如果有相關統計再給本席一看好嗎是"},{"start":214.935,"end":230.467,"text":"我想再回來請問秘書長其實我們是要肯定你們7月就開始根據修過的法把它納入自我檢核表我有拿到相關的表我想這樣的做法是蠻好的"},{"start":231.588,"end":251.27,"text":"今天我比較是想針對這個表的內容想跟秘書長討論是不是有可能精進我讓秘書長看一下這個表格你看這邊譬如說這一份前面是講當然就是安全及衛生防護這邊有防止機械設備器具危害爆炸性等等"},{"start":251.79,"end":279.983,"text":"那但是就是這裡面其實你們把兩個東西放在一起一個是職業安全一個是職場霸凌那其實會有一些情況就是好像有些時候是不適用的那我想問就是說秘書長覺得有沒有可能評估有些完全不相干譬如對那個機構單位是不是有可能加上一個不適用這是第一個有可能喔那你們可以評估一下這個可以評估"},{"start":280.703,"end":302.283,"text":"那另外就是這個減核表好像不夠細緻就是因為職場風險的等級跟業務其實非常的不一樣因為你現在是所有的公部門大家知道公部門數量何其多我是給你們參考一下勞動部怎麼做因為其實我們的法源都是那個職安法"},{"start":302.964,"end":329.23,"text":"那勞動部執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引中他的風險評估表有依不同的職場分類譬如這邊我找出來的像社工他長的就會不太一樣那另外右邊那個環境檢點物理環境方面他就是以噪音、照明等等為主所以這個風險評估表是有可能依照不同的職場做分類那不知道"},{"start":330.934,"end":348.819,"text":"就是秘書長覺得這個部分可不可以去研議有沒有辦法稍微分類分流一下呢謝謝委員在這個實際執行面中提供我們那麼多寶貴建議這部分我想我們可以來研議因為委員報告其實就我的角色來講我也是填表人你也是填表人我們是接受保訓會作為機關之一我接受保訓會這邊的要求"},{"start":350.239,"end":370.887,"text":"所以我們在填這個部分的時候其實委員剛剛也就建議我們自己委會覺得有點共鳴這樣對對對要不然就填太多跟自己這個機構不相關的那真正要他注意的東西他反而忽略到那這樣就很可惜謝謝那個秘書長也覺得這是可以去精進的那再來我也想提一個部分其實你們這個處理原則中有明定迴避規定是蠻好的嘛"},{"start":373.108,"end":393.163,"text":"包含就是如果有就是機關要要求迴避或採取適當措施不得參與職場霸凌的相關調查工作行政程序法也有講到什麼本人、配偶、前配偶、血親、三等、三親等如果是事件當事人時要迴避這個沒問題吧?蔣秘書長這個是蠻好的規定"},{"start":398.121,"end":425.996,"text":"那現在的情況就是還有另外一個原則你們這邊也規範了這些都必須要保密對不對因為調查結果很可能霸凌不存在嘛所以這要保密這部分是不是也沒有問題是沒有問題那所以這邊你們也有寫得非常好保護當事人與受邀協助調查人員的個人隱私其他人格法役對其姓名或其他足以辨識身份之資料上面都講機關要落實保障嘛"},{"start":426.916,"end":450.843,"text":"這樣是不是也沒問題就是我們現在講的是調查過程並不是調查結果因為調查有可能成立有可能不成立在調查過程中因為時間有限那我這邊就收到陳情有陳情人陳情他們是被邀請的調查委員結果居然拿到當事人身份證字號及電話地址這個有必要嗎 秘書長你覺得"},{"start":453.767,"end":468.873,"text":"名字都不需要了居然還有身份證字號跟電話筆寫這個應該是不需要啦不需要喔所以這明顯就是說你們的辦法中寫了可是執行上這個檢核表可能會看不出來的那這個部分有好那謝謝祕書長也肯定這樣的事情應該不能發生那我想保訓會也肯定保訓會今年已經要積極增修訂相關指引"},{"start":486.506,"end":496.517,"text":"我想這是非常好的事喔那我想你們既然要做相關指引是不是可以做兩件事喔第一個謝謝剛剛秘書長已經講了就是分類更精進一點"},{"start":497.358,"end":518.547,"text":"那第二個你這個具體指引迴避原則要怎麼執行好像有人還是看不懂就是我想我收到的是願意信任我的來跟我澄清的那可能還有別的所以這整個不管是教育或者是具體指引的工作譬如申訴人足以辨識身份的資料這些如何遮蔽在操作上"},{"start":519.447,"end":540.132,"text":"是不是能夠更清楚更精進那確定在執行面真的能讓大家看到我們政府要做好就是防治霸凌的這整個細節這個秘書長可以承諾嗎這個委員剛剛的建議我們待會去來做一個討論看看到底是這個規範上面不夠細緻還是說在操作面大家可能沒有注意到"},{"start":540.712,"end":563.505,"text":"那如果這樣的話我想就需要處理的強化宣導或者是強化規範的部分我們來研議或者是指引可能寫的還不夠細大家看不懂那個迴避原則跟那個資料遮蔽的部分了解 這個我們待會去研究 謝謝你那那個秘書長可不可以大概多好時間內可以本席一個你們準備怎麼處理的報告或者讓我辦公室知道一下也不一定要那個報告"},{"start":565.421,"end":572.665,"text":"一個月一個月 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所以當他在哪裡 世界那麼大 國家那麼大他要去旅遊也好 去工作也好 各方面 出國任何形式都可能所以當他沒有的時候 其實你也沒有辦法掌握所以我們把錢花在這裡與其要花在這裡 是不是把它用在"},{"start":373.199,"end":378.341,"text":"強化我們外交部怎麼樣在就我們剛剛說的像現在因應各項的情勢發生的時候我們怎麼樣讓國人知道第一時間要怎麼樣聯繫我們的外交部所有的駐外管處或者怎麼樣有一個幫他們協助的一個管道跟窗口我們去強化這個部分在他們出國的時候因為出國就只有一個就這些就只能從機場出從那個"},{"start":400.231,"end":424.536,"text":"海關出所以那樣子的一個管控應該非常容易讓他們得到這樣的訊息比你去抽獎還要好因為我們看不出他抽獎可以有什麼這樣海外安全的意思因為大家要去哪一個國家比如說要去義大利扒手很多大家都會做一些預防的措施所以我們希望在必要的時候提供協助而不是這種抽獎的活動這個部分部長有什麼看法"},{"start":428.617,"end":453.274,"text":"我是同意委員的觀察跟建議當然一開始的時候就是五年前開始包括這個所謂旅外國人動態登錄包括LINE官方帳一開始是要宣導可是到了一個期間之後因為這次其實中東的戰事也讓很多國人知道這個有登錄也可以保平安另外一個很重要是跟旅行社"},{"start":455.075,"end":470.483,"text":"因為這個資訊就是到最後聯繫的時候我們比較知道怎麼去其實不會因為你如果不是發生在中東因為部長我們現在就是因為我們資源很有限所以我們一直認為說與其要花在這裡臨時事務局那時候不是說護照要做沒錢嗎要放在那裡我們特別要提出來是說如果發生這樣的事情的時候我們其實讓國人知道應該尋找什麼樣的窗口因為這個"},{"start":483.669,"end":490.734,"text":"政策我們比較擔心的另外還有一點因為我們覺得他好像沒有太大的必要另外一個是因為現在我們台灣的詐騙橫行國際也是也不只台灣可是這樣的詐騙是因為他有很多的個資是很容易取得"},{"start":501.622,"end":522.511,"text":"或者被拿到了以後其實大概就做這些使用所以這個活動推動以來我們國人出國登錄的比例到底有提升多少是有提升了11倍啦以去年是6萬7千多人每個月但我剛剛講委員把他講完外交部門跟交通部尤其是觀光署因為他們跟旅行社這個是團體的"},{"start":524.672,"end":532.158,"text":"這個好好的來溝通他們透過這個管道的話可能效果會很快的增加我們掌握旅行社就好了啊因為旅行社有最全面的因為我萬一我一團30個人去我只有兩個人或讓你一半15個人登錄還有15個人沒有啊所以你在旅行社上面你會有最完整的資料"},{"start":545.089,"end":553.255,"text":"只要他出去他到那個國家你所有的你都要通報我們馬上可以知道了所以就在海關跟旅行社其實可以掌握所有資料因為我們怕說你國人參與這樣的登錄的資料的時候活動結束以後他會不會被徹底的銷毀然後這些資料外流或不當利用的風險評估跟防範機制我們到底有沒有做到因為你這個只是一般的這樣子的一個登錄的行為而已所以你的"},{"start":573.031,"end":577.774,"text":"治安的管理的強度絕對不會很高可是這個記錄到說你所有的去的地方你很詳細的個資其實全部在裡面所以我們擔心的是這個部分如果我們任何一個政策提出來我們希望還是對國人真的是好的對我們的政策是好的對我們的外交是好的"},{"start":593.547,"end":599.189,"text":"那如果說有需要去改進或者我們可以修正方向的我們還是希望外交部這邊可以去審慎的評估好不好好 我們檢討這個經濟然後也會跨部會來協調因為目標是要關心跟"},{"start":609.572,"end":631.21,"text":"協助國人萬一在戰爭或天然災害或是什麼樣的緊急應變所以這個抽獎只是一個方法一開始也許為了要促銷宣導但是到了一個程度之後我想效果我們會來看方法上面怎麼去精進因為我們一方面就是說各自的這個保護因為我們還是希望這個才是很重要的考量因為我們做不到"},{"start":632.411,"end":642.939,"text":"幫這些國人他們提供這麼詳細的資料以後我們可以確保多少這個是我們可能要提出來的好那就這一方面我們希望未來有很多不管在預算上面因為預算我們還是期待"},{"start":647.222,"end":654.224,"text":"我們中央政府就是我們在行政院其實他們也可以釋出這樣子的一個善意今天不是只要求在野黨應該要去通過怎麼樣的預算任何的預算其實大家都希望可以好好的去執行可是當很重要的預算通過這樣子相關法律或者應該要編列的時候沒有編因為軍人的照顧警消的照顧其實事實上他就是重要的他不管對內對外"},{"start":676.77,"end":701.456,"text":"他都是站在第一線的這些執勤的人員或者所有服務的人員如果他們沒有受到照顧我們政府其他說非常重要根本都是假的所以就這個部分我們也期待如果說政府願意釋出善意其實沒有這麼多的問題那這個部分我們也期待部長有機會也跟高層建議一下 謝謝好 一起來努力 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167689","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167689","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e594501f6631bd8f4f15fca415873cf37f141fe0890f16f542894175fee1b8a1d2e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"09:42:28 - 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好像說不會伊朗說不可能這麼快結束"},{"start":46.796,"end":67.337,"text":"不能單方面所以現在行政院你們所推估的政策裡面以及我們現在在在中東的原物料的相關的供應你們推估都是很快結束的這個scenario是不是"},{"start":71.958,"end":91.869,"text":"因為整個物價的穩定行政院的政府院長他每週都會召開物價穩定小組會我是在問說你們推估的就是說這個中東沖煮很快結束嗎四到六週結束嗎但是如果超過半年呢"},{"start":92.95,"end":117.575,"text":"那目前我們現在的像氦氣這是半導體的就是供應鏈裡面重要的原物料那如果中東的衝突超過半年以上那半導體的原物料像氦氣以及我那天也問過了像農業肥料的這個液態氮等到底會不會斷鏈"},{"start":122.336,"end":127.52,"text":"跟我們報告 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09:10:24","影片長度":"00:02:33","會議時間":"2026-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一)委員何欣純等17人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員王美惠等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員劉建國等16人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員馬文君等20人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員陳俊宇等29人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n三、審查\n(一)\t委員楊瓊瓔等36人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t委員王美惠等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t委員范雲等18人擬具「國民年金法第十五條、第五十條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t委員林倩綺等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t委員張智倫等16人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t委員許宇甄等17人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t委員蘇清泉等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t委員李坤城等20人擬具「國民年金法第十五條、第三十一條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t委員張嘉郡等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t委員林思銘等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)\t委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民年金法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十四)\t委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)\t委員賴士葆等28人擬具「國民年金法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六)\t委員盧縣一等17人擬具「國民年金法第三十一條、第五十三條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十七)\t委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】\n【第三(十)至(十二)案，如經復議則不予審查、第三(十三)至(十七)案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【3月18日及3月19日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-03-19","start_time":"2026-03-19T09:07:51+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-19T09:10:24+08:00","duration":153,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.050968750000001,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.26471875000001,"end":153.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.94784375,"end":153.96471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.405,"end":35.157,"text":"謝謝主席 各位大家好我想本席今天特別針對國民年金法第54條之一的修正草案的提案說明近年來由於國內的物價持續的上漲民眾對生活的成本增加相當的有感尤其是食品 醫療 交通跟日常的照護支出幾乎樣樣都漲對一般的家庭來說已經很吃重更何況是原本就仰賴年金維持基本生活的長者以及因身心障礙額外"},{"start":36.337,"end":55.177,"text":"照顧需求的弱勢朋友來說更是雪上加霜主席本席這次的修法呢主要是將我們的這個老年年金給付加計金額跟老年基本保障年金的金額從3500塊提升到7000元因為以現在的物價水準平均"},{"start":55.797,"end":75.969,"text":"三千五百塊平均一天帶走一百出頭如何要求一個長者用這樣的金額去維持晚年的這個尊嚴呢因此我們主張從三千五百塊調整到七千元那同時呢我們也不能忽略這個身心障礙朋友的處境所以本席將身心障礙年金幾本的"},{"start":76.869,"end":88.903,"text":"保障以及身心障礙基本保障年金同步調升至新台幣八千元給予他們最基本的經濟安全網除此之外呢本席也將現行每四年調整一次的機制改為每兩年調整一次因為物價上漲不會等人"},{"start":93.948,"end":102.899,"text":"弱勢的生活困境更不可能4年才檢討一次最重要的是我們也新增一項合理的機制就是當消費者物價指數累積成長達5%的時候即應公告調整我們希望化被動為主動"},{"start":109.767,"end":136.517,"text":"及時的制度回應不會讓民眾已經撐不下去了連基本的生活都受衝擊了政府才慢慢的需要檢討而國民年金的制度初衷就是為了要照顧那些沒有勞保公保跟軍保的民眾他們往往是社會結構最脆弱的一群所以我們的法律不能隨著時代環境跟物價指數的與時俱進的話那這份保障就會流於形式"},{"start":137.017,"end":150.467,"text":"所以為了讓國民年金更符合現實讓弱勢保障真正能跟上時代本席懇請各位委員支持本案共同為長者及弱勢撐起更有尊嚴更有溫度的安全網謝謝謝謝徐醫生委員接下來請廖瑋祥"}]}},{"id":"167676","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167676","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59fd8b4fec078f224209e6e2233bc9ef8041fe0890f16f5428b11edd5d93528f7f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:04:41 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這很重點來了我們也將勞保基本"},{"start":123.456,"end":150.81,"text":"的保證年金由3,500元調升至5,000元身輕障礙基本保證年金從4,700元調升至6,715元來實質來保障民眾的基本生活最後為了來這個強化通膨的抗通膨能力我們在第54條之一增加了其中檢討機制未來在法定的4年調整期內只要"},{"start":151.85,"end":179.679,"text":"兩年內的消費者物價指數CPI成長到3%我們即將立即啟動這個給付金額的調整不用再估等四年此外對新制給付的增訂的每年必須要在國內居住滿一百三十三天的要件確保國家的資源能夠真正用在需要照顧的民眾以上提案敬請各位委員同仁支持 以上謝謝謝謝詹志龍委員 接下來請"}]}},{"id":"167692","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167692","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e5919a1e4fefc4f8a7e5fca415873cf37f141fe0890f16f5428ad494a3f2fee8f525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:50:38 - 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那接下來就是說我們去年產創條例修正之後有把節能減碳跟AI的一個投資抵檢都納入這個相關規定當中可是就是很多中小企業在申請那個節能減碳這相關的一個投資抵檢"},{"start":172.483,"end":193.152,"text":"碰到一個認定上 認證上面一個很大的困難不管碳排查啦或者是合格設備的認定等等讓我們的政策美意打了折扣針對這個部分我想請教次長我們有沒有怎麼樣的做法能夠協助廠商得到一些跨部會的一個協助然後來簡化這些行政流程"},{"start":194.053,"end":210.434,"text":"根文報告其實我們產發署這邊都可以來協助廠商來做認定尤其我們有很多的法人可以透過這個輔導團可以來幫忙廠商申請各項不管是租稅優惠也好或說他要做研發補助也好我們會啟動這樣的一個機制"},{"start":212.236,"end":236.224,"text":"OK 那針對AI整個投資的部分你講因為它限定在全新的硬體還有軟體技術或相關的服務可是我在想說有一些企業他們在開發AI的模型投入的一個算力的成本跟軟體的一個訂閱的費用是被排除在外的針對這個部分我們有沒有可能把它給納入變成投資的一個內容是"},{"start":237.984,"end":254.29,"text":"這個我想這個軟體的部分應該還是可以可以算力的投入可以認列啦算力投入也可以是是是軟體還有備用的支出都可以購買算力的部分都可以投入嗎都可以變成抵減的一個內容嗎是這個部分我們再來跟這個"},{"start":258.616,"end":283.717,"text":"另外一個部分就是因為現在國際上面針對高階人才搶人其實變得很重要那台灣因為少子化問題很嚴重所以我們怎麼樣讓人才持續能夠穩定來支持台灣那個產業發展讓它變成一個國家的一個戰略因為事實上在香港新加坡他們都有一個很特別的一個情況就是說針對那個企業如果高薪去"},{"start":285.578,"end":313.417,"text":"聘僱一些專業的高階人才的時候他們的高薪的支出跟那個海外延攬費用都可以進入一個租稅抵免的狀態我們台灣針對這部分好像還沒有那我們有沒有考慮把它納入然後來跟周邊的一些國家去做一個比較好的一個競爭其實我們在產放條例或中小企業販條例裡面對研發支出的這個投資都是有投資體檢的所以它延攬這方面的人力的部分"},{"start":313.777,"end":332.591,"text":"研發技術我理解我是說針對一些高階人力的一個聘用跟一些海外的獵頭等等的狀態有沒有辦法把他納進我們已經有納進來了就是說他如果是屬於那個研發人力的部分他在產創條例裡面他就可以認獵是在投資抵檢的這個費用裡面好那"},{"start":333.351,"end":350.401,"text":"那最後這部分的時候我想特別請教一個情況因為那個針對那個審計部其實有針對我們在法人科專的這個部分那法人科專其實坦白說我們看到過去這幾年的一個"},{"start":352.243,"end":364.613,"text":"質詢力情況都不錯那審計部有針對我們法輪科專之後的商業化的一個運用跟量產的一個部分進行後續的一個追蹤的一個情況那針對這個部分的時候我們"},{"start":368.436,"end":394.238,"text":"感覺數字上並沒有特別的漂亮針對商業化跟量產化的部分針對這個部分我們經濟部這邊有沒有更具體的做法比方說針對我們季轉之後我們目前只追蹤是一年那我們會不會有更長的一個追蹤然後針對我們季轉之後的一個商品化跟量產化能夠有更好的一個運用因為這才是我們真正做科專的一個目的"},{"start":394.778,"end":407.568,"text":"我可以請次長做一個簡單的回應跟委員報告其實我們技術師每年也都會去做查核也就是說剛剛委員所指出的這個問題那我們會了解一下他在產業應用的這個狀況那當然就是說如果他能夠把這樣的技術"},{"start":412.751,"end":440.045,"text":"來申請我們政府的這個研發的一個補助的一個計畫那當然這個就可以讓他的這個技術他能夠去落實落地能夠在應用上面OK 針對這個部分我想說再請我們相關的單位到本辦公室做一個更詳細的一個說明因為針對這個我們科專之後科專計轉之後的一個落實我覺得其實是我們真正的目的那我們希望看到具體的一個成果 好不好好的 謝謝"},{"start":441.987,"end":442.007,"text":"謝謝正義協會員"}]}},{"id":"167682","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167682","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e596f04677eb48679865fca415873cf37f141fe0890f16f5428f94a74b1c6866ca55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:19:21 - 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我請一下這個經濟部次長經濟部何市長次長好 次長我想這個在我們談產創條例之前還是要來跟您請教一下這個我們的這個關稅的議題我想還是持續在國內引起各界的關注尤其是產業界 傳統產業界"},{"start":37.426,"end":55.856,"text":"那高雄的這個扣件業尤其是首當其衝這232條款對他們來講其實影響其實是非常的大這個年產值超過1500億尤其我們外銷到美國的這個市佔率大概佔了差不多四成到五成將近五成左右"},{"start":57.478,"end":71.937,"text":"市長您可不可以來簡要說明一下在這樣的一個高關稅的壓力之下其實我們的高雄的課件業者他們的訂單幾乎是趨近於零面對這麼高的關稅那再加上訂單沒有"},{"start":73.138,"end":99.746,"text":"政府我們一直講說政府要給予他們協助那到底這個協助是不是能夠實質的對於我們的扣件業者產生實質的幫助實質的效果第二我想請教接下來我想還是會有持續一連串的這樣的一個談判協商溝通協調那到底我們的扣件業有沒有納入下一次的"},{"start":101.467,"end":129.006,"text":"谈判的产业之一来 次长委员很关切扣建产业的关税的问题我想也是经济部龚部长也非常关心的一件事情他在今年的二月也南下跟扣建业来做座谈所以当场也给扣建业做出一些承诺我们成立了一个产业竞争力辅导团"},{"start":129.446,"end":137.958,"text":"我們會有一個專團來協助擴建產業的一個發展那另外我們在立法院的支持之下在特別預算裡面也編了460億元從研發到市場拓銷的這個部分還有融資的協助的部分也可以來協助我們"},{"start":145.187,"end":155.212,"text":"擴建產業的一個就因應這樣的一個關稅的一個衝擊那至於說下一階段是不是我們跟美國談判的部分會把這樣的一個議題納進來其實現在這個剛呂同這個部分是美國川普總統非常"},{"start":166.297,"end":183.367,"text":"這個關切的一個項目尤其這個鋼鐵產業他一直希望能夠把鋼鐵產能夠在美國回流在美國投資鋼鐵業所以他對全球鋼銅鋁的部分課徵50%的關稅他是全球性的"},{"start":191.091,"end":211.602,"text":"所以我們都理解但我要談就是說您剛講的這些東西其實過去也談過很多次啦我要請教是到底有沒有實質對我們的擴建業者有實質的幫助那未來的這個談到您剛講川普對於這些鋼鋁銅的在乎所以他的關稅到50喔"},{"start":214.164,"end":229.056,"text":"其實川普是一個變動性蠻大的人所以未來我要談就是說我們在接下來的談判有可能的談判裡頭有沒有把這個扣件也把它列入一個談判的重點"},{"start":231.179,"end":257.071,"text":"有沒有我跟委員報告一下就是說其實像這一次我們跟美國的談判的這個部分其實航太用的這些扣件其實它是可以有優惠的這個豁免關稅的一個豁免所以這個也是我們未來要輔導產業的一個方向就是說我們現在扣件業可能做的可能都是一般"},{"start":259.273,"end":271.185,"text":"這個通用的這種構建那是不是可以針對美國他們需要的這些航太甚至就是說可能他需要的這個太空或是軍用的這些構建我們來輔導這個業者來做這方面的提升"},{"start":276.33,"end":301.267,"text":"所以我想這個也是我們接觸到幾個在高雄的擴建業者大概影響比較小的就是像次長您剛剛講他可能是做航太的零組件的所以他的影響相對會比較小但是大部分的傳產大部分的業者其實如何協助他們做產業轉型或者是創新也是我們今天在討論這個法案或者是說我們在討論台灣的整體經濟發展的一個重點因為我看"},{"start":304.769,"end":312.571,"text":"我看了一下這個包括國發會對於主計總署應該是主計總署對於我們今年的2026年的經濟成長率的預估是7.71%但是整個經濟成長率整個經濟的動能亮眼之處其實都是在AI科技的這個傳播"},{"start":324.734,"end":345.44,"text":"AI的這個相關的產業鏈所以做AI的人其實是很有感但是做一般的傳統產業的人其實對於我們預估的這樣的一個經濟成長率或者是說大家覺得台灣的景氣是蓬勃發展相對那個體感是冰冷的那我想我們也不能一直沉溺在說AI帶來的紅利但是對於傳統產業的照顧我想這個也是經濟部應該要"},{"start":350.721,"end":372.85,"text":"齊頭並進的地方 所以就這一點經濟部有什麼更具體的做法嗎當然 委員講得沒錯就是說我們現在正享受AI的紅利那其實AI它所創造的機會我們也希望這一次的傳產能夠把握住這樣的一個機會那其實我們有很多傳產轉型成功的案例"},{"start":373.45,"end":402.314,"text":"就是說像現在這個半導體設備的檢測的設備其實這個都是很高質化的一種工具機所以這個部分如果我們的船廠能夠轉得過來的話其實這個部分可以創造很大的這個價值那另外現在我們在發展五大信賴產業包括我們的無人機包括我們的機器人其實這些都是扣件的機會那扣件要進入到這些領域當然必須要"},{"start":403.134,"end":429.505,"text":"要有一些這個創新研發他可能也必須要經過一個認證所以這個都是門檻所以經濟部就是透過法人跟我們後建業者跟工會一起來協助我們產業能不能讓它高質化然後雙手轉型這個是我們經濟部的目標好 謝謝這個次長那我想下禮拜我們可能在經濟部的報告裡頭還有更多的時間可以做討論但是我覺得就"},{"start":430.626,"end":437.436,"text":"創新這一點就傳產尤其課件業者的輔導這一點我希望經濟部能夠做更多一些啦好不好是謝謝好謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"167686","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167686","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59d429d94ee5da19545fca415873cf37f141fe0890f16f54284bf6fd8005bdee605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"09:34:49 - 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一直看 一直看請各位盡量配合下一位質詢請蔡議員"},{"start":31.122,"end":49.779,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們是有請經濟部次長經濟部何市長跟國發會國發會葉主委葉主委委員好次長跟主委市長剛剛有講到這個國發基金的投資啦那基本上"},{"start":51.089,"end":64.634,"text":"我們在看國發基金投資並不是每一項投資都可以叫做百分之百會投資成功如果百分之百都是投資成功的話這些國發基金的委員可能都自己出來投資了大概也沒有人想帶在國發會"},{"start":66.836,"end":93.341,"text":"得嘞 我要強調 事實上還是很多很成功的投資國華基金目前最成功的投資大概就是那一支藥華藥吧它現在已經把它國內生產的這個血小板或者是紅血球的抗血癌賣到全世界 尤其賣到美國美國現在它的一級用藥都是用這一支投資的藥這是國華基金非常成功的一個投資項目"},{"start":94.241,"end":98.124,"text":"謝謝委員的說明 對 就是藥華藥這一支其實我們投資這一家藥廠其實已經二三十年了那這一家藥廠其實剛開始的話虧損年年剛開始也是虧損 因為它一直在會有獲利大概是這幾年的事啊可是它獲利以後變成國發機 變成一隻大金庫 金雞母"},{"start":116.496,"end":139.144,"text":"那這個也是我們國發接近的投資的標的都是早期新創的一個事業所以投資事業不能說早期的虧損就直接否決掉說他的努力就直接說都沒有效很多事情這個投資還是要慢慢的累積然後累積到了技術啦什麼都成熟了自然他就會有獲益了不是嗎"},{"start":139.724,"end":156.844,"text":"那就我們就國發基金整體的營運績下來看的話就是說我們114年的淨值達到兩兆九千億元左右那加計累歷年的剩餘累計交庫的數額的話大概有3365億元所以比原本我們原本撥"},{"start":158.185,"end":164.387,"text":"波幅投資的金額309億來講的話整個資產成長的大概有105倍左右那105年到114年的獲利較前10年成長大概3.5倍那105年之後的投資的轉投資事業總共有36家那一直到114年12月31日為止的話總共投資了大概303億元左右那已經回縮了大概八成"},{"start":182.154,"end":207.424,"text":"那持股市值的話目前市值大約是537億元左右那高於整個投資成本大概5.57倍主委就是這樣啦就是說我們不希望投資的時候這過程有弊案只要在沒有弊案的前提之下我還是認為國發基金在輔導這些新創企業就是要秉持著更開放而且更支持他們讓他們覺得在創業的初期有得到我們國發基金"},{"start":211.245,"end":218.969,"text":"這個非常大力給他們勇氣的一個力道這樣才是對的吧所以主委應該秉持著這樣就是說一定是要嚴防查閉 不能有閉案但是要用心的大力的支持我們國家的新統產業這個態度一定要這樣接下來我來請教次長"},{"start":232.515,"end":239.118,"text":"就市場我之前也有在跟經濟部談過我們嘉義在設置海淡廠但是我們一直很擔心因為海淡廠他的未來這個海淡他的水費的計算那一直有人跟我說要會把現在在做填海造陸的費用納為海淡廠的"},{"start":252.843,"end":269.853,"text":"這件事我覺得不合理不合理的就在於說因為這個填海造陸10公頃的土地並不是百分之百作為海淡產使用如果你把這一筆算入海淡產的費用未來怎麼有企業敢去使用加海淡產生的水水費可能一坨水要70幾坨"},{"start":274.754,"end":303.06,"text":"怎麼有誰再去趕去用啊價格的落差太大所以市長這部分的調整有順利嗎跟委員報告這個部分我們會跟院裡面來申請公共建設的預算那如果爭取成功的話這個部分我們是不會納入到水價的核算確定不會納入嗎好那這個很重要那第二個我要跟市長再講一下因為我們現在經濟部在我們嘉義有兩個產業園區的開發一個是水上南京一個是中埔的公館"},{"start":303.76,"end":309.482,"text":"水上南進因為在開發的過程發現有文化遺址所以他的開發進度比較慢那中埔已經開發而且都在招商招商的也順利但是這些廠商有來跟我反映就是說水上南進最近有在做租金的調整租金的調整之後他們一坪會變成150塊跟我們現在馬籌後產業園區的租金是一坪120塊這兩個的租金之間是有落差的"},{"start":333.39,"end":358.527,"text":"馬酬厚基本上它是由台塘以及我們縣政府來合作來招商目前還沒有開始正式招商但是它的價格落在150塊反而我們已經有招商的中埔跟水上價格是150塊這個會讓這些產商覺得是有相對的一些落差的感覺所以他們認為有沒有可能這個時候可以跟馬酬厚、水上南進"},{"start":360.108,"end":386.296,"text":"畢竟不管是台湯啦還是我們現在經濟部都一樣是經濟部管的一些企業啊有沒有可能在租金上來做一個讓他們一樣的一致呢根本報告齁那因為這個馬籌的租金的部分齁是那個嘉義縣政府這邊他們所這個來推案定可是還是要尊重台湯啊最後還是台湯確定啊"},{"start":387.156,"end":411.857,"text":"因為他的土地是台塘的我們縣政府是協力他去做招商我們現在跟縣政府這邊來瞭解的結果縣政府是表示說大概會等到台積電他COAS第三場來報開工跟凍土之後預計在今年的4到5月會來重新審定租金的價格"},{"start":413.538,"end":437.734,"text":"所以這個部分也許啦 剛剛可能價格也許會再做一些調整市長也說一下好消息啦 台積電COWAS第三場已經正式開工了所以在這幾天也開工了 這也是一個很重要的對我們家也很重要的一個訊息所以接下來在馬籌後這一個半導體的供應鏈也就是我們說馬籌後的圓中圓這一塊後續的招商麻煩市長跟台灣協力一下 好不好"},{"start":441.977,"end":443.221,"text":"好沒問題拜託了好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝蔡議員"}]}},{"id":"167675","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167675","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59ba48409d17a5a0775fca415873cf37f141fe0890f16f54283175bca7e66acddc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"09:02:07 - 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是我們現在請考試院秘書長 考選部長及全序部長好 請秘書長還有兩位部長委員長"},{"start":24.205,"end":42.011,"text":"早 兩位部長早MU長我想請教一下就是我國的這個學子報考國考的人數逐年的下滑那從考選部的資料顯示報考高普考的人數從105年的95,062人報考到114年只剩下57,707人MU長您對於報考人數的這個下降的趨勢您怎麼"},{"start":52.074,"end":72.367,"text":"是 我們了解這個狀況 當然也會很重視這個事情對 那如何重視呢其實我們就針對這個國考人數下降的部分我們覺得就是說第一個就是考試 如果剛剛有講過考試真的讓硬職者付出很大的求職成本"},{"start":73.248,"end":88.247,"text":"那我們現在面對民間的人才的需求的競爭的確是處於比較不利的局面所以第一個我想就考試的怎麼樣更友善一點那我們就在推動高補考檢科降低這個考試的障礙因為考生其實為了要考考試都要去補習班都要花很多錢"},{"start":89.088,"end":113.79,"text":"那第二個部分就是說我們也就只等調高的部分那個其實全局部都有在逐步的通盤檢討啦那其實最主要還是說哪些不足而入取的類科是最需要去緊急搶救的部分這個部分我們都有在跟行政院的相關部門組成工作圈來做各個面向的其實我想考試的你說科目減少事實上過去啦過去要報考這個國考其實"},{"start":116.292,"end":130.738,"text":"這個更為困難啦所以但是大家還是真香的來去也報考我們的這個國家考試就是因為以前大家都認為公務人員就是金飯碗那有很好的保障那現在就是覺得相較於民間的這個公司我們"},{"start":131.978,"end":158.458,"text":"退休之後的保障呢縮減了很多所以讓他們不願意來報考國考才是我覺得才是最重要的原因所以針對應屆畢業生報考的部分就107年還有一萬六千多名的新生新鮮人報考但113年只剩下三千元只剩下三千人那請問一下114年應屆畢業生有多少人報考這個我請劉部長來說是請部長"},{"start":161.024,"end":179.246,"text":"就114年的應屆畢業生報考的有多少不好意思 應屆畢業生我可能還要再查一下因為到去年就只剩3000人所以今年的應屆畢業生報考的可能相對更少喔那所以這個部分可能是不是再麻煩部長給本席辦公室相關的資料因為我這邊要陳述的就是說"},{"start":180.607,"end":199.367,"text":"卡西文部當然有提到說報考的人數減少是因為少子化還有現在外面的景氣好但是為什麼是在108年會出現斷崖式的下跌是不是因為107年年改上路之後所以造成讓年輕人看到政府帶頭毀約的負面示範"},{"start":201.989,"end":223.862,"text":"大學的畢業生才不願意報考公務員我跟委員報告就是說如果我們觀察考生人數變化看得久一點的話最高峰大概出現在民國一百年那前後三年那之後就急劇的下降我想跟當時的這個民間年輕人的薪資跟求職的困難產業西進有一些人多少都有些關係"},{"start":225.263,"end":251.369,"text":"那您剛剛講是不是年改的因素我要講的就是說大概從101年開始它就急劇的下滑那一直到106年但是年改的因素一定也佔了很大一個部分它有沒有影響對 所以我說應該說我覺得不報考的原因有很多那您說其實就待遇面我覺得那個都是相對應它跟民間的時間的吸引力我想我們現在針對這個報考人數的這個報考人數的逐年下降"},{"start":251.989,"end":271.557,"text":"我們應該要提出一個務實的方法除了您剛剛講的報告科目減少其實不是主要的原因而是要怎麼增加他身為公務員的薪資待遇還有他的優越感讓他願意來為國家報效而不是只是看薪資的部分我覺得這個部分才是應該我們要探討的一個重點"},{"start":272.597,"end":289.134,"text":"那當然在這邊也要特別的再請教一下我們的這個全旭部長部長我們現在就是要修改考積法的這個上限嘛那因為您也曾經講過現在的考積法已經沒有獎勵效果所以你們現在想要修改"},{"start":289.494,"end":316.739,"text":"不過以往我們的考機大概就是說真的很多單位都是照分配的輪著輪著你今年甲等你明年乙等但是呢因為這樣的關係就讓很多想要就是認真優秀的公務員員他覺得可能我現在好每年也是有機會輪到乙等而不是都甲等所以您現在說放寬甲等的一個這樣子上限可是現在看起來如果假設到時候一些長官"},{"start":317.839,"end":340.949,"text":"都不願意當壞人然後全部都假等的話那要怎麼來去杜絕這樣的一個狀況委員講的都是正確的就是說我們怎麼修法本身最後到底是自己執行但是我們在修法過程裡面可以減少我們不想要發生的事情所以我們的方向就是不要再用甲乙丙丁這樣一個很僵化的一個方式我們就基本上未來就是"},{"start":343.142,"end":352.137,"text":"會請主管處理注意兩個部分一個是真的很好的同仁一定要把他找出來那如果真的工作表現不好你要把他找出來那其他呢大家就是"},{"start":353.383,"end":377.167,"text":"秤值表現工作良好大概是用這個方式那因為會不會有那種就是大家知道說反正都是主管在打烤機的所以我就要去巴結主管讓他們給你這樣子的這個官場維諾的這樣子的一個工具呢我想是不會有這樣的一個當然我的意思是說打烤機本身就很難完全科學化但是它是有管理的措施但是我們的制度設計會讓畢竟像說未來是以條件說"},{"start":380.928,"end":408.398,"text":"就是說你一定要符合某一個條件核實你才可以打那個等次所以全序部這邊其實已經針對這個部分做好這樣子的一個對我們準備大概下禮拜就開始要徵詢正式徵詢機關跟公務人員的意見那大概什麼時候會送到本院來如果可以大家有一個共識的話我還是要講如果我們徵詢過程裡面大家還有覺得我們的方案不夠好我們就當然還要再討論我們不希望送出一個大家"},{"start":409.218,"end":424.949,"text":"意見很多了但是如果大家覺得我們剛剛那個想法是可以走的那順利的話我們會以這個會計為努力的目標我們的考期是能夠對於我們真正優秀的公務人員給他們一個鼓勵跟獎勵而不是為了打而打"},{"start":425.809,"end":448.491,"text":"對 而且我們平常也有 我們這一次討論的過程裡面希望就是說我們剛修過我們是要大家另外善用平時的激勵獎勵的一個制度因為我想委員也有很多行政經驗知道有時候不是只有年終的時候給一個獎勵現在平常的時候就應該有一個機制給主管有這個機制獎勵這個同仁我想我們是希望有更多元的方式來處理這個事情好 謝謝部長"},{"start":451.013,"end":474.705,"text":"然後另外呢我要再請教的就是在這個有我們根據喔你可以看一下我們公務體系的人才流失的現況喔從109年到113年公務員離職的人數大量的流失大概總共累積了12503人喔那當然很多的原因是有的人說他是請辭的最大原因當然都是個人因素啦"},{"start":475.325,"end":503.488,"text":"那其中有高達43%的人坦言是因為另有他就這是不是代表政府所提供的這個待遇跟職涯全景已經全面落後於民間企業呢這個部分老師我們部裡面的一個統計表因為原因太大類的沒有很細的一個規範我沒有辦法回答但是我從另外一個角度跟委員報告另有他就有可能他就重新再考試因為我剛剛有報告說我們有大概有兩成的人又重新考回來"},{"start":504.409,"end":513.192,"text":"換別的單位就對了所以這個原因我們沒有太細究我覺得要去探究他真正離職的原因你才能夠根本的解決我們也嘗試想要提供一個新的調查表同仁如果真的在辭職的時候我們請他能夠回答他為什麼辭職我們有嘗試再做新的一個調查表"},{"start":527.978,"end":551.448,"text":"然後另外就是再請教一下就是請我們的這個公務體系的初等考試五等的公務員其實起薪扣完工保退府實領薪水跟其實跟基本公司其實差不多那過去長輩都說工職是鐵飯碗嘛現在已經有好像有點生鏽所以我們可以看一下在這個台灣公務員的人事費的支出在OECD國家的排行"},{"start":552.728,"end":574.378,"text":"平均是9% 我們是5.9%所以其實我們是在末段半而且過去10年來這個比例也下滑了1.8%那部長請問一下這反映的是台灣政府對於人才投資呢過於吝嗇還是說這就是一種變相的國家級的血汗呢"},{"start":575.118,"end":603.629,"text":"我跟委員報告 比較各國的人事費用這個是很危險的一件事情 佔比因為每一個國家的GDP或者生活資本都不一樣我覺得應該是自己的國家長期來看那我們過去十年來比例也下滑了1.8%那跟我們分母有關因為人事費佔總之是有比會跟我們分母多少有關我覺得比較好的指標是我們的平均年所得到底有沒有變化"},{"start":604.709,"end":625.242,"text":"那這個部分確實我們平均年所得實質上公務體系的平均年所得都在增加中因為我們不斷調薪那也許是說這個部分就某些特定領域的人還比不上民間企業我想現在目前應該就是這樣的一個狀況但是並不是全面性啦我知道我知道像比如說像剛剛講一些工程師他可能在別的地方還有這個他的"},{"start":626.082,"end":646.835,"text":"他的證照還可以加急所以針對這個部分我覺得應該是要通盤的來考慮真正的讓有能力的人願意進入到國家體系這個薪資貸的部分在權責上是有行政院主管是好 那再麻煩各位我們針對公務人員我們讓他們有更多的尊嚴跟願意進來我們國家服務謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167718","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167718","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59c8e778a8f4127ee331a176eedb5d66a3d6f5a3a5be601f8ace33abcfce886a825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"11:20:46 - 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他們關心的就是一件事真的有一天發生意外的時候 我們的政府有沒有領略 能不能安全得愛我們的家但是本市這邊要關心的重點就是我國在面對海外衝突或戰爭風險的時候 是不是具備完整而且清楚的這個撤僑或撤離的這個機制"},{"start":63.621,"end":87.348,"text":"那本市有注意到最近中地區台灣旅客這個撤離的事件在社會上引發了不少的這個討論那有媒體有報導就是在這一次事件有兩個台灣人在巴林搭乘日本政府安排的包機離開當地那我們外交部都要表示說這展現我們台日之間的這個禁忌時刻的互相扶持的友誼"},{"start":89.389,"end":107.559,"text":"只要是任何國家願意在危急的時候對需要幫助我們台灣人來伸出援手我覺得我們都要先存感謝因為對現在國外的國人來說最重要的就是安全的回家但是另外一方面有媒體在報導說有七十幾個"},{"start":108.979,"end":136.9,"text":"台灣的旅客因為中東班機取消滯留在海外就是旅行社這個事件嘛那也是透過後來是透過這個中國大陸方面的協調跟安排然後經過上海轉機返回台灣那最後這件事情相關單位表示是說從網路的訊號判斷這可能涉及所謂的認知作戰本想要請教部長就是說一樣都是協助我們台灣的人民離開危險區域一樣都是讓國人安全的回家為什麼"},{"start":137.941,"end":152.756,"text":"日本的協助撤離是友誼跟互助那中國大陸這邊的協助會被認知是認定是認知作戰我想政府在面對撤僑或撤離國人這件事情應該是以人民的安全為最高的原則"},{"start":154.117,"end":181.439,"text":"應該不是正題的角度來看這個事情所以本身也注意到我們中央社這個報導我們外交部表示這個在中地區還有79名台灣人需要協助離境那我想既然外交部我們都掌握這樣的數據本身想要請教部長就是我們政府目前是不是已經建立好完整的撤僑評估跟應變機制那如果局勢持續惡化我們政府是不是有具體的撤離方案"},{"start":182.079,"end":208.852,"text":"好 報告委員 確實政府有不管是撤僑或護僑的標準作業程序那經由這一次中東的戰爭也是一個檢驗那我們也不斷地在改進那至於說您剛剛提到其實日本 那當然他因為他的這個包機的這個空位有先諮詢我們的需求所以我們政府有協助促成至於中國他並沒有 那個是轉機"},{"start":210.593,"end":237.055,"text":"是去上海中國是說的多做的幾乎沒有啦如果去了解在中東的僑民他們都認為台灣做的比他們中國的大使館好太多倍了但是呢我們不是在計較我是說救人優先如果當事人有需要提供什麼服務可是有時候正在戰爭中連一些機場都關了航空公司他也沒有飛的時候那我們怎麼樣讓我們的國人了解他也比較安心不然他會緊張部長其實本協議是說"},{"start":239.497,"end":261.623,"text":"把人安全帶回來是最重要的 今天我要表達的是這個意思另外一個讓我更關心的就是說 我們這次的外交部次長吳志忠部長在接受媒體訪問的時候說中東地區空域關閉 因此外交部先讓僑胞留在當地 並且提到其他國家也沒有撤僑"},{"start":264.824,"end":281.992,"text":"我們在面對海外戰爭衝突或戰爭風險的時候,撤僑的標準到底是什麼?是依據戰爭的風險評估來做?還是依據空域是不是有開放?還是要依據其他國家是不是有啟動撤僑或撤移才來做這些判斷?"},{"start":284.14,"end":303.009,"text":"報告委員因為所謂撤僑就涉及到行政院跨部會也有一個機制在處理因為包括交通工具包括當地是不是落地那我們外交部可以做的很重要所以於就是說我們當地的國人的一個關心跟整個調查瞭解說瞭解他們的需求"},{"start":303.709,"end":320.039,"text":"那我們的第一時間的了解是這一些僑民並沒有表現這樣的需求至於說過境的旅客那也涉及到怎麼樣去他們的需要到時候空域放不開是最重要我們跟當地國的交涉因為這個時間都涉及到一些這個空域的這個問題這個安全意外也涉及到主權啦"},{"start":329.825,"end":346.62,"text":"我剛剛講委員我們有個例子有個中國人因為想要跟我們一起撤出我們也是很樂意把他納入所以我是同意委員的看法在戰爭或天災發生的第一時間人道的原則救人是最重要讓他們有選擇可以離開"},{"start":348.342,"end":377.579,"text":"部長為什麼本席會問這個就是說如果因為我們一聽到是因為其他國家也沒有撤僑我想問我們的啟動其實是看其他有沒有才做嗎這代表你都沒準備呢第一不動就不動還是跨數反數我同意市議委員的講法因為這有標準作業程序所以各部會啊都要啟動是是保證這個是本席要問的那另外剛好部長提到就是說空域的部分嘛那我們撤僑難道除了飛機以外沒有其他的方式嗎陸域我們也有也可以嘛對不對所以"},{"start":377.839,"end":396.209,"text":"有一些如果可以移動的話我們在這一次裡面有很多跨國的移動也是透過我們的管處啊協助然後讓他們可以從可以離開的不管這個飛機或者是說其他的陸域是是所以其實本席要了解就是我們到底有沒有準備好這件事這個因為"},{"start":396.829,"end":419.974,"text":"未來這樣的情況如果再發生的時候我相信大家不樂見但是真的發生的時候我們在海外的這些我們台灣自己的同胞我第一時間我要怎麼想因為我當我聽到這個時候其實換作是我我的家人是在海外遇到這種情況我一定會覺得說你都沒準備我們要怎麼辦所以這個部分布裡面這邊也是要有做就是我接下來想要"},{"start":420.894,"end":441.233,"text":"具體的幾個問題就是第一個我們的風險評估報告是不是海外測小風險評估報告是做好了那這些測理的指標是依照哪一些來判斷那第二個就是說我們是不是掌握目前在中東各國的人數那分佈跟安全的狀況我們是不是有建立即時聯繫跟協助其實包括旅遊包括"},{"start":442.335,"end":453.531,"text":"我們的華僑第三個就是說如果中東再進一步情勢升溫我們是不是具備有隨時可以撤離的這個方案"},{"start":455.543,"end":476.979,"text":"跟周邊的哪些國家是不是有做好這樣的互助因為不可能有時候要透過其他關係嘛鄰近的國家嘛那大概怎麼弄嘛那最後就是要強調是撤僑真的是人命的安全問題啦那我很好奇想問就是說我們像現在中東地區現在在旅遊警示是被列為什麼警紅色警戒嗎紅色或橘色"},{"start":482.708,"end":497.323,"text":"就橙色啦因為我很好奇就是說當時如果說照媒體說的請我們在中東的這些台灣人說在原地待那都已經是這麼緊急在另外那邊待的意義是什麼"},{"start":498.004,"end":522.172,"text":"所以這個部份其實都是 其實如果是本縣 多少國人都要關心的事情那我想當然很多外交的事情不是這麼的單純我也相信那我也知道外交部很努力但是我們更想要確保就是在這件事情給我們帶來的應變狀況未來應付這樣的情況的時候特別是如果在周邊都沒有邦交國的時候我們怎麼去把我們的"},{"start":524.136,"end":546.119,"text":"國人能夠安全的帶回來台灣另外就是再補充一個比較輕鬆的問題就是講到台東這件事情我想這幾年其實我們比較少看到外交部跟台東線有在做一些合作的事情不管是在推銷台東或者是說外國的友人來台灣或者是要宣揚台灣的這些文化本身在這裡建議"},{"start":547.08,"end":562.158,"text":"我們台東其實是 台東是一個德國的社會我們除了是擁有最多原住民族群的縣市以外我們人口其實是有閩客 遠 還有外籍這些東西很符合台灣的精神 就是多元跟包容"},{"start":562.939,"end":568.082,"text":"我們是希望外交部能夠多多的來讓台東這樣的精神跟這樣的文化的特質讓其他的國家看到以來行銷我們台東縣跟台灣"},{"start":584.954,"end":601.466,"text":"我們會做重點 也會請議委員因為我在擔任交通部長的時候 幾乎把我們環島的鐵通路都串聯然後那時候疫情發生 我們也導入深度旅遊沒有來過台東很難體驗到台灣 我們只能說定位台東一方面是它的生態"},{"start":607.61,"end":629.099,"text":"板塊擠壓產生的不管是海岸山脈或整個地質再來就是文化多元族群所以我們最近也有一些原住民外交跟太平洋國家包括獨木舟還有無動力的帆船其他的我想如果真正要來第二次深度體驗"},{"start":630.339,"end":631.981,"text":"台東啦比較長的時間去做度假我們現在的民宿我們現在年輕人的這一些創業的時速遊過型都有來過台東會完全不一樣會愛上台灣"},{"start":646.499,"end":664.14,"text":"看的中央山脈我們是澳洲但是面對太平洋我們是在台東的最前面當我們是一個海洋國家我們想要更開放的方式讓大家看到我是委員我可不可以建議一個其實雙東我覺得我們高雄現在去的人多其實透過南回鐵路"},{"start":665.321,"end":690.731,"text":"那個鐵道觀光把台東跟屏東串聯起來是完全是我想都是世界級的體驗啦也許我們會來討論進步部長應該都有些畫面我們日後可以一起來合作啦那最後還是請部長就是將我們今天我本席提到這些關於撤僑這些準備或這些機制然後以及提到一些問題在一周內將這些報告能夠送到本席辦公室也讓我們了解我們現在多高薄面對這樣的情況我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":693.772,"end":702.783,"text":"好 我們把已經做的跟應該怎麼做會更好啊做個檢討 因為這個事情還在發生中是前世也不忘後世之事所以我們會滾動式的檢討跟精進謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝接下來"}]}},{"id":"167717","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167717","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59aab369861726c2175fca415873cf37f1d6f5a3a5be601f8a9b6e307be05129615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:23:34 - 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這些都完成之後明年就可以正式來遷春了嘛我們希望這個目標一定要全力來完成因為鄉親等待相當久的時間"},{"start":41.829,"end":59.533,"text":"那所以現在的環評跟都計都在程序當中也都在經濟部的掌握當中是應該沒有問題啦應該沒問題好那另外我請教一下要增購台塘的6.7公頃土地這個有沒有問題這應該沒問題啦這也沒有問題對我們大概就是會跟台塘這邊來來這個就是協議啦協議增購啦對對對"},{"start":64.514,"end":80.663,"text":"那另外我請教所謂無房無地的這個住戶的不能設宅的方案這個溝通協調什麼時候可以完成這個我們有把這個意見提到院裡面那我想院會再做處理我希望這個盡快的完成好不好"},{"start":82.752,"end":101.612,"text":"市長這個預定多久可以完成我覺得經濟部要有一個設定一個時間點我們是不是盡快我們請那個院裡面來出面來協助我希望一個月內把這件事情定案好嗎我們來盡量來協助朝這個方向一個月內定案好不好因為現在是很細微的一些問題而已結束定案就可以結束讓鄉親們做出一個好的選擇"},{"start":103.214,"end":124.275,"text":"好 謝謝那再來我回到今天的我想今天的整個廠商條例裡面其實適用範圍的部分擴大經濟部應該是原則上是同意這樣的方向的因為你們的辦法裡面其實也是8年所以我想這樣的方向應該有助於我們對於新創的一個也謝謝邱委員的一個提案那其實我們來看一下數字上"},{"start":124.875,"end":144.21,"text":"如果是3到5年有1165家但是如果5到8年的話就有3061家會增加了將近到3倍的一個新創的量納入我覺得對於新創是一個鼓舞啦而且新創也確實是台灣也是世界都很重視的我想這樣的方向經濟部支持嘛"},{"start":144.73,"end":172.449,"text":"支持好支持那我們再來看一下其實整個所有的包括各個產業界的也都希望能夠增強企業投資新創的意願而這是最關鍵的如果我們能夠有更多政府的支持更多企業願意投入到肯定跟支持新創的能量的話那我們新創最有更多可能性那新創只要有一些能夠成功的話其實有帶動起很大的一個動能了所以我覺得這樣的投資對於台灣這樣的國家來說"},{"start":175.01,"end":195.959,"text":"所以我們希望在政策上有更多的放寬跟鼓勵跟支持我們的企業來投入我們的新創那國外的經濟裡面有很多像包括義大利包括法國包括南韓甚至於泰國都有用專法的方式來做一個對新創的鼓勵經濟部要朝這樣的方向來走嗎"},{"start":197.169,"end":210.199,"text":"我們會來做研議啦研議看能不能是在產創條例裡面還是在有一個專法產創條例當然是個專章而已但是我剛剛也講了幾個國家都是用專法的方式我也建議其實經濟部可以審慎評估"},{"start":212.28,"end":237.547,"text":"當我們認為新創事業是一個新的重要的事業的話產業的話我們用專法的話顯現出我們對於新創事業的重視同時間我們也給予更大的一個肯定就像最早期的時候這個再生能源只是在能源裡面的一個專章而已但是後來我們把它立了一個新的法出來之後我們推動再生能源的力道跟態度就是不一樣所以我也希望未來新創是用專法的方向也希望經濟部朝這個方向來推動好嗎"},{"start":238.007,"end":265.385,"text":"好 我們來演繹好 謝謝那另外新創其實存在著南北的差異這個也請葉主委也一起思考其實幾乎集中在台北我們看這個家數裡面台北就7000多家裡面台北就佔了4000多家新北又佔了1400多家兩者幾乎佔了最高的一個比例那中部1200多家 南部大概1500多家但中部集中在台中 南部就是高雄跟台南"},{"start":265.845,"end":289.679,"text":"所以我會強烈的還是會 這我每年幾乎都要求的我也希望經濟部也希望國發會持續來推動讓怎麼樣讓新創在南部特別是中南部能夠有發展的機會這個就需要的是各位要更強力的去輔導跟協助大多數能量比較強的都是在北部那如果南部的部分所以我還希望不管是你們的天使計畫你們的各種的輔導的計畫"},{"start":291.3,"end":319.125,"text":"一定還是要請葉竹偉請何次長這邊要加強對於南部的輔導的力道南部他們不是他們不需要也不是他們扶持不起來而是他們其實需要更多的協助所以我希望在部裡的資源跟國發的資源要加重對中南部的不管是高雄台南或者台中這幾個主要都會的他們本身有很強的新創能量但需要更多的支持所以我這個希望竹偉跟這個次長能夠加強這樣力道好嗎"},{"start":321.532,"end":337.003,"text":"主委要不要也說明一下好不好這幾年其實我也是在逼國發會重視這個問題那成效其實很有限主委要不要講一下怎麼來理解就這個部分跟委員報告就是說我們在114年已經有投資了大概300家的新創然後投資金額大概是43億那帶動民間"},{"start":338.844,"end":358.484,"text":"共同投資有178億那就高雄及南部地區在114年的投資金額跟件數來看的話高雄這個部分的話已經有投資14家的新創那金額大概來到1.74億那在南部的話有一些就有投資了30億家的新創事業那金額大概是4.4億"},{"start":359.565,"end":374.315,"text":"那截至在今年的2月底為止我們南部的辦公室協助新創的情況我們有大概辦了10場的廣宣你提這個我大概都知道但是事實上在跟北部還是有相當大的落差我想這是個事實"},{"start":375.115,"end":402.615,"text":"所以我希望因為從這個表上面都很清楚看到其實北部跟南部的落差相當大所以我希望給一個目標希望在下次在今年度的時候我看到至少高雄在新創這樣的能量至少達到台北的一半加速至少努力到台北的一半我不敢馬上追上台北但至少要台北的一半這樣南北之間的差距才能夠縮減好不好我希望兩位都能以這樣為目標去要求你們的團隊好不好高雄的數量達到至少台北的一半"},{"start":403.739,"end":404.807,"text":"好我下次會來檢視這樣的數字啦好謝謝主委謝謝市長好謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"167716","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167716","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59fd5e54b5c6334e875fca415873cf37f1d6f5a3a5be601f8a165d56d12b5959f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:16:28 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核能重啟要經過一個程序未來台電會送債預轉計畫到經濟部我現在想要知道經濟部目前是樂觀其成嗎 支持嗎當然我們是樂觀其成你也同意說我們現在國家是需要核能的吧"},{"start":73.141,"end":78.842,"text":"就是現在有這樣的一個機制我們就照這樣的機制來讓這個核三所以身為經濟部次長你不認為我們國家需要核能嗎這整個國家的運轉上我們現在經濟的發展上核能不重要嗎 重要吧其實核能的部分我們也一直在"},{"start":95.146,"end":99.568,"text":"再跟外界你不要那麼害怕啦也不要那麼小心真的我希望說既然經濟部我們已經走上這條路經濟部就要大方的承認說我們是支持核能的嘛而且現在很多歐美國家過去反核的"},{"start":111.252,"end":132.645,"text":"也都自己面對說時代不一樣現在的確我們就是需要核能 核能是乾淨能源那重啟核三是一個非常嚴謹的流程這個我想大家都同意那根據目前的資訊台電要先針對設備老化耐震進行自主的安全檢查然後後續還要進到核安衛來審查那本席想要請問次長最快什麼時候能夠看到核三廠的電力"},{"start":140.33,"end":154.715,"text":"再重新注入台灣的電網呢可能自主安全檢查要1.5年到2年啦這樣算起來咧所以20282028喔那我怎麼之前聽你們在喊2027"},{"start":157.202,"end":185.883,"text":"因為還要核安會審查的這個時間所以你們本來是希望2027但是又delay到2028嗎沒有delay啦就是整個程序這樣算下來那有可能加快嗎加快腳步嗎要看設備的這個狀況啦因為還要經過這個當然安全是第一這個我想大家都同意就是在安全無疑的情況之下行政速度不像是行政速度"},{"start":186.263,"end":213.425,"text":"拖累了整個運轉整個檢查好不好我們希望說盡量的加快角度因為現在台灣的這個能源嫩性啊是非常的脆弱因為國際的情勢現在也很不穩定我想中東的戰火直接威脅到我們天然氣的供應鏈那台灣的這個發電比例啊天然氣的發電比例現在是多少"},{"start":214.656,"end":229.951,"text":"你們知道嗎如果以我的資料看是已經接近接近五成對不對接近五成但我們的安全存量只有短短的11天次長你知道韓國跟日本的天然氣儲備大概是多久嗎"},{"start":231.667,"end":250.22,"text":"好 你不知道那個韓國大概是一個月然後日本是三週所以我要知道的是說我們雖然很希望趕快重啟核能但是我也希望問一個問題就是我們的天然氣存量為什麼沒有辦法"},{"start":251.297,"end":272.925,"text":"增加天數呢?我們就是除潮啦因為現在我們這個所以我們都知道是除潮的問題那我們不可能今天才知道除潮的問題那兩年前三年前這麼多年我們為什麼所以我就是要問你新建的速度跟新建的進度你有掌握嗎?有有有我們掌握現在狀況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":276.254,"end":290.343,"text":"明年我們這個法定的那個天數會安全存量會提升到14天所以你們努力了這麼多年只有增加三天的儲量喔你們有沒有預估說我們要能夠"},{"start":292.288,"end":319.955,"text":"比照說韓國我們可以拉長到一個月那如果我們的安全儲量要拉長到一個月的話我們需要哪些基礎設施我們需要哪些投資這個經濟部難道都沒有規劃嗎這我們都有規劃有規劃那你講給我聽你們的規劃是什麼這個部分因為我手頭上沒有把這個資料帶在這裡所以現在本席就提醒你然後甚至是不是可以盡快的提出書面資料送到本席辦公室因為這個"},{"start":321.995,"end":329.004,"text":"是全台灣的安全耶我們怎麼會不趕快加速加碼去把它完成呢一邊重啟核能一邊要加快這個天然氣除潮的增建讓我們可以更安全嘛這一點你同意嗎 同意"},{"start":340.419,"end":358.532,"text":"那當然三月底馬上又要召開這個電價審議委員會那現在大家都在擔心電價又要漲了那所以本席要請教次長這一次的這個成本壓力經濟部是不是還是能以照顧民生優先呢"},{"start":359.932,"end":364.975,"text":"我們會把委員的這個意見會帶到那個審議會我們當然就是說希望能夠物價能夠穩定那當然這個決定漲價或不漲價這個是在審議會因為這個對於很多小家庭甚至小商店小吃店影響非常的大而且我還要再一次呼籲就是說這個農業電價絕對不能漲因為農民真的是太辛苦了"},{"start":387.286,"end":393.693,"text":"這一點您能同意嗎當然我們會綜合考量在電價審議會裡面因為已經動漲了嘛農業電價現在是已經動漲但是是不是能夠繼續維持動漲這一點請次長一定要強烈的幫我們主張好嗎所以我會把我的意見帶給審議會好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝張家俊委員"}]}},{"id":"167712","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167712","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e5946b469a7c1ce72439f861acbcf5e1501d6f5a3a5be601f8abdd561b1fcf353985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:56:31 - 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接下來請莊委員發言謝謝莊委 我們請考試院 我們劉建新秘書長請秘書長我們兩個的部長要去哪裡 施部長 全序部啦好 請施部長 考選部先起來好了好 委員長那施部長先休息 還有劉部長"},{"start":24.912,"end":47.338,"text":"那我想這個本席今天針對考試院推動這個國家考試電腦化這樣的一個決心來表達這個肯定而且是高度的一個肯定但是在這個數位的數位化的浪潮底下那做這樣的一個變革確實是一個重大的一個里程碑今年是115就2026"},{"start":50.868,"end":60.318,"text":"我覺得很大的感慨,這三十年改變真的很大。我三十年前,在你們考試院,律師我那年考到三十年前到現在,寫到這樣幾天,兩天考到之後,手都快麻了。"},{"start":66.865,"end":94.16,"text":"但是這個改革我覺得是對畢竟時代在走那確實是制度要跟上可是我比較擔心的就是說有時候政策對但是那個細節常常是決定它到底是成功還是翻車你像一個國考的電腦的話怎麼樣才會做好"},{"start":95.64,"end":106.304,"text":"那這個方向我們說是對的但是為什麼說細節如果沒有做好的話會出很大的一個問題你像譬如這一次你們這個磁庫的一個問題這當然你說不開放自建的一個磁庫這個可以理解啦這是為了防避嘛 為了防避啦可是呢"},{"start":117.959,"end":127.314,"text":"這個整個制度變革以後以現在我們這個以前參加過考試的人幾十年後來看這個你會覺得也很好玩的地方因為我現在思慮的一個考試"},{"start":131.523,"end":154.111,"text":"第一階段現在也有選擇題,這個在30年前都很難想像的啦第二階段現在就開始說,不然就先來衝電腦來做一個硬式那我的問題就是說,我們很擔心這個考試到最後,都逼什麼人拍得很快這個很怪,我們當年在考試是怕我們字寫得醜"},{"start":155.491,"end":162.175,"text":"建新你做一個電視委員,你給我們改課程,看了這份,這個字像鬼話符一樣,那份數還扣掉了,那議席漂亮的人,份數比較高,我如果是電視委員在打評分的時候,我看那個字看起來舒服,我多給他一分兩分,那也很合理啊,可是那個考試常常就是,尤其是國家考試,是要看那個人的聽度,"},{"start":179.026,"end":188.53,"text":"到底說他的見解還是說這個資格裡面這個人程度是不是好的現在這個考試要扶公職現在大家衝這種 大家在那邊打架在那邊打架這個也怪 但問題我也認為說國家考試 考選的一個制度與時俱進數位化這當然是必經之路啦但是我為什麼說必須要去非常注意的就是說"},{"start":205.518,"end":229.934,"text":"你也要有一個溫暖的配套,你現在不開放個人持庫,我認為還好,為了防避,可是你也必須要去做一套標準的法律的一個持庫的一個內建,我覺得這樣比較合理啦,不然到時候大家連二法律的人司律考試,律師跟司法官到底要來比輸入的速度,這好奇怪。"},{"start":231.021,"end":258.834,"text":"考到之後去做書要看一天就不用打字嘛做書他也不用打字嘛他說我們這套制度就是你來比速度好怪你有沒有覺得很奇怪跟委員報告我們會限制在傳統的八頁五千兩百次一分鐘頂多四十到五十次考生就可以非常有把握的把那一個這一個八頁裡面的用完所以拼速度沒有用"},{"start":259.654,"end":269.637,"text":"因為它是有次數限制的是 所以我的意思我都很擔心這個變革 當然你說一定要像以前那樣 那好像也不對那兩天下來真的會烤死人但是現在烤生比較焦慮的是 你的鍵盤是什麼滑鼠是什麼 螢幕是什麼 我也沒看過所以我在本席在這個地方 就站在一個烤生我們這些以前都會哭到哀不叫喊"},{"start":286.102,"end":293.765,"text":"一個簡單的要求就是說,我們拿著人家公佈的設備規格跟型號,我如果做大人的,我孩子要去課的,我就覺得說,咦,我們買一台電波,開幾千塊,要去那個設備、規格,拿回來我們先來適應一下。我認為,你如果沒有讓他先適應的話,這種變革,那到最後好像在幹什麼呢?好像那個粗盲盒一樣,我不知道伯父你的看法是什麼。"},{"start":312.212,"end":328.906,"text":"跟委員報告,這個我們預計在七月到八月的時候,我們會在我們的網站公布根據每一個學校,就是我們的市場,公布它每一間教室是怎樣的鍵盤跟滑鼠所以考生到時候,他一旦知道自己在分配到哪一個"},{"start":329.987,"end":356.765,"text":"市場他就可以去查閱這第一個第二個我們所用的這些鍵盤跟滑鼠一定都要標準版我們不會有任何奇怪的東西但是我們還是會提供讓他們可以查閱所以你那個規格的設備你也要讓人知道啊對 就是我們在七八月的時候會在網頁公布那你剛提到的那個就是說沒有我們的小規模你就說先那個考場那個其實我倒這樣認為啦你有一個有一個模擬的一個機制你現在有線上模擬我怕你不夠就是說你剛才說的"},{"start":358.447,"end":363.694,"text":"我們有考生實際進入到考場我一個小規模的 進去給你實體去試打喔 那筆整個就是這樣 接下去之後就像柏中說的 買那個奇怪怪的規格出來"},{"start":372.94,"end":396.205,"text":"這個就是在講說,數位的轉型,我們要適合考生,那個叫溫度啦!數位轉型,我們這個改革裡面,我們也必須要一個溫度啦!這樣保證這個沒問題嗎?這兩行都沒問題嗎?沒有問題,跟委員報告,目前我們是三件事情第一件事情,其實我們上週末已經有140個現在的法律系學生,他們先來試,那我們正在收回饋,再進行微調,這第一個"},{"start":397.065,"end":413.926,"text":"那第二個就是說如委員所說的我們預計也是盡量可以在一個比較適當的時間,是不是在北中南都可以去協調學校來提供那個實際他們可以去適應一下大概這樣的市場長什麼樣子,這是第二個"},{"start":414.907,"end":440.562,"text":"那第三個就是說我們其實跟委員報告我們這樣的一個小型的實體測驗時間我們還是希望可能會比較抓在一次就是說大概在那個之後因為否則這樣下去現在的時候一方面我們還在調整另一方面也就是比較擔心影響目前的目前要考一次的考生的備考但是我們會提供像委員所說的我們今天在北中南"},{"start":441.202,"end":453.296,"text":"到時候在考試之前提供那還有就是我們考試前我們現在在上億我們在第一節開考前拉長他們可以來先來就是適應的時間盡量把它拉長這個秘書長我認為"},{"start":456.555,"end":484.266,"text":"這個對於整個私立考試第二次改採這個電腦的一個硬式喔這是國家考選制度的一個與時俱進的一個重大的一個里程碑啊這你們要衝的好誰啦 這不要開玩笑變成說一個重大的一個改變另外第二個啊 這個部長你請回喔我要來請秘書長就是說剛才我想很多委員會講到那個考機的制度啦這個考機制度喔 真麻煩 你就知道你"},{"start":485.886,"end":499.95,"text":"這非常清楚啦 以前的就是為什麼大家會比較不去相信這個制度就是說現在你們在考試分配名額啦新人去買 你看你就等他去買而已啊沒有啊 算很好了啊甚至於"},{"start":503.732,"end":532.453,"text":"大家疑的人就是輪流像比如說剛剛前面兩位委員我看到他們都提到那個縱放人犯那個部分都被人家懲罰 被人家罰疑等對不對問題是說 如果我們等到去賣我們如果做到要死也要疑等所以這個有時候 你就去看縱放人犯的人要疑等做到要死也要疑等譬如說我一千塊要疑等如果是75%要是假等"},{"start":533.891,"end":551.585,"text":"就長期讓人家感覺這不是在看表現,你就是在框一個比例而已。你現在說要來取消加等的一個上限,不是不可以,但是我要提醒就是說,你如果沒有一個配套的話,還是會產生一些不公平。"},{"start":552.492,"end":564.739,"text":"還是會產生一些不公平長期以來 做官的 譬如我做秘書長 應該你不會啦 你例外啦做到官做部長的人 我比較害怕的比較害怕的 性質比較好 就是人之常情啊"},{"start":566.104,"end":586.573,"text":"很合理啊 人就是這樣子啊但問題就是說對那些努力的人 你看不見啦有時候擔憂很大的話你也看不見啦有些考試也輪不到你打啦我們只是看那個制度這樣在運作所以長期就會產生這樣的一個不公平所以我倒認為就是說有沒有可能我看現在國防部那個不錯"},{"start":588.214,"end":603.232,"text":"國安部現在你看 下隊上同儕都要去做一個評分 量化 多項去做一個評價甚至與聯機校的部分 用記錄來講話 不要靠印象我這個當長官的 我對你印象多好"},{"start":604.195,"end":608.999,"text":"那是我對你好,你給我拍馬屁啊,還是說你給我攔鹽啊,你給我攔鹽好啊,看自己好啊,應該是有落實這樣的一個績效的一個基點的一個制度啦,甚至於呢,這有時候做豬肝的都要自肥,所以那個點數的一個分配,你給它設一個上限,"},{"start":625.29,"end":643.997,"text":"讓整個公務人員這樣的一個烤雞的一個制度讓它變得比較公平一點啊不然現在公務人員的一個體系裡面很多人人才進不來然後優秀的又留不住簡單講 秘書長你做一個回應好不好"},{"start":644.588,"end":660.154,"text":"好 謝謝委員我先澄清我們不是朝所謂的假等不設上限這樣的一個做法因為我們其實是簡單講打掉重練我們會設立一個新的架構所以不是從原來的架構去微調這樣的處理"},{"start":661.815,"end":685.104,"text":"那在我們新的法案其實強調就是說你要很明確的要辨識出表現真的非常特殊傑出的人因為他這個年度有重大貢獻例如說在防疫那幾年我們就知道有些人他的對國家對人民有特殊重大貢獻你要給他獎勵那在考機的部分可以反映到最頂尖的部分那另外一部分呢真的有需要這個繼續觀察或者是要檢討的人也要把它辨識出來"},{"start":686.184,"end":708.599,"text":"那其他的部分我們就不要去複製過去這種所謂的3比175%這樣的一個比例因為它就創造出兩種不滿一個是拿到一等人覺得我跟拿假的人沒有差那麼多或甚至根本就一樣根本就是輪流這種不滿另外一種是說其實表現最頂尖的人會其實跟平均甚至平均值以下一部分的人"},{"start":709.585,"end":735.877,"text":"得到一樣的獎勵這個看起來也不合理所以我們希望就是說我們還是回歸到一般常態分貝的那個結構那多數的稱職付出辛勞的同仁都得到一致的獎勵但是我們辨識出最優秀的部分然後可以特殊的獎勵那甚至剛剛部長有講我們也還有我們的獎勵辦法裡面還有平時的即時獎勵就不是考積的部分但即時獎勵也可以去強化這個部分"},{"start":736.437,"end":765.12,"text":"所以我們是把那個結構重新再打破重新架構一次其實考試的公平跟考機的公平這兩樣東西喔這個涉及到整個公務體系的喔這個考試院這個地方其實你們應該可以更加把勁要進來的科技要公平啊 合理啊你說考機 要公平啊這也很合理啊進去之後大家也希望可以合理啊這個制度喔 到現在這個制度就是說有那個不平啦我不敢說讓大家多失望啊"},{"start":765.74,"end":784.186,"text":"75%你只要站在好的人 多數的人都會跟你說好 我站在這裡等我都會說你的口氣壞 都會說你這個制度壞 我一定說你好的但是如果有不公平的話 我們就會發現這個國家就會流失很多人才這個部分我們請考試院再加把勁讓整個制度更完整 更來精進 好不好好 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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":617.117,"end":617.197,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":646.215,"end":646.296,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":830.623,"end":850.572,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":935.725,"end":937.022,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1092.807,"end":1093.899,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1153.194,"end":1153.295,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1268.434,"end":1269.606,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1315.001,"end":1315.162,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1398.157,"end":1399.568,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1534.437,"end":1548.149,"text":"好 立法院第11屆第5會期經濟財政兩委員會第一次聯席會議先請組密報告初期人數報告委員會初期委員18人 已組法定人數好 我們現在開始開會首先進行討論事項 請宣讀"},{"start":1552.014,"end":1570.91,"text":"考論事項審查1.本院委員邱志偉等17人拟據產業創新條例第10條第23條之一及第23條之二條人修正草案2.本院委員鍾嘉斌等20人拟據產業創新條例第39條第46條及第46條之一條人修正草案3.本院台灣民眾黨黨團拟據產業創新條例第30條條人修正草案4."},{"start":1574.893,"end":1585.94,"text":"本院委員賴銳榮等21人委員陳廷輝等19人委員蔡玉儀等17人及台灣民眾黨黨團分別拟據《產業創新條例》部分條件修正草案等4案5.本院委員陳廷輝等5.本院委員邱振軍等17人委員林建吉等20人分別拟據《產業創新條例》第10條之1及第72條條件修正草案等2案"},{"start":1605.714,"end":1626.343,"text":"六 本院委員王宏威等23人擬拒 產業創新條例第10條條件修正草案七 本院委員廖偉強等19人擬拒 產業創新條例第10條之一及第23條之一條件修正草案八 本院委員滇一學莊等16人擬拒 產業創新條例第61條之一及第70條條件修正草案案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1628.373,"end":1654.81,"text":"好 今天總共有12個提案版本包括主席還有鍾嘉賓委員 臺灣民眾黨黨團賴榮委員 陳廷輝委員 邱振鈞委員 王虎委員廖偉祥委員 丁學森委員 林慶熙委員蔡宇宇委員好 我們現在先請提案的委員或者黨團來進行提案說明好 我們在場有臺灣民眾黨團由胡義強委員代表"},{"start":1663.857,"end":1674.024,"text":"好那個台灣民眾黨團的提案說明那主要的話我們的這個本黨團的產業創新條例部分修正的一個草案"},{"start":1674.878,"end":1693.663,"text":"那主要起因是在2023年監察院糾正流行紡織東北光電的一個紡織案那2024年監察院糾正這個聯合再生的一個違約案另外的話呢我們在立法院2024到2025之間其成立了國家發展基金"},{"start":1694.463,"end":1718.363,"text":"不當的投資暨管理失職調查的委員會在2025年5月專案調查的報告函送了國發會跟經濟部在2025年的9月根據上述的這些弊案的形成跟調查的結果我們民眾黨團提出產創條例的修正草案"},{"start":1719.324,"end":1726.802,"text":"那主要呢是有介於近年國家發展基金預辦投資標的嚴重的一個虧損跟弊案的一個頻傳"},{"start":1728.325,"end":1749.043,"text":"那麼我們有很多的投資案都具有先設建再劃把之疑慮那投資的審議的監督機制形同了虛設同時呢這個退場的機制嚴重的僵化甚至我們所投資的事業屢傳重大違反公司的治理的事件"},{"start":1749.904,"end":1763.631,"text":"那整個在國家發展基金之管理的一個規範實在是有必要把它以法律的明文來進行規定來強化監督那避免我們人民的納稅錢遭到一個讓止"},{"start":1765.012,"end":1785.411,"text":"那希望透過這樣的修法可以讓這個國發基金的一個管理達到全責的相符審查的程序公開透明並且把這樣的機制給法制化那麼達成我們國家重大投資不浪費然後沒有這樣子的舞弊的日後的一個情況再發生謝謝"},{"start":1787.168,"end":1804.246,"text":"好謝謝民眾黨團這個洪委員的提案說明這一場沒有提案委員那我們先請部會做報告所以請經濟部市長何進昌何市長報告"},{"start":1816.804,"end":1839.442,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生們大家早安今天貴委員會與財政委員會聯席審查大院邱委員邱氏和委員等各委員分別擬據產業創新條例相關條文修正查案計12案僅代表經濟部向貴委員會提出報告敬請視教"},{"start":1840.943,"end":1865.94,"text":"產業生意條例為我國推動產業升級轉型的重要經濟法案以推動產業創新的方向從產業發展的方針創新的投入無形資產流通運用產業人才資源的發展產業投資永續發展以及產業環境等構面提出政府的具體作為另外整合產業園區設置管理的法制促進產業用地的活化利用"},{"start":1868.503,"end":1882.719,"text":"因為產業發展的這個需求政府進行產業創新條例的這個修正作業自民國99年施行以來已經歷經10次的修正最近一次的修正公布的日期為114年5月7日進來"},{"start":1887.741,"end":1910.654,"text":"因全球科技日新月異世界主要國家多投入發展人工智慧及新興產業領域為因應國際的趨勢我國產業急需要推動數位淨零雙軸轉型加上新創事業是驅動產業升級轉型及經濟成長的關鍵推力協助新創事業穩健發展也是政府近年"},{"start":1911.714,"end":1930.191,"text":"施政的重點 因此本部檢討修正產狀條例相關的規定並在114年5月7號 奉總統修正公佈將AI及節能減碳納入設備投資抵減試用項目提高支出金額試用上限至新台幣20億元並延長實行期間至118年底"},{"start":1933.914,"end":1953.267,"text":"至於鼓勵投資新創部分則調整適用門檻及要件以增加新創募資的機會另為了避免關鍵技術外流也明定對外投資申請核准情形及罰則為利業者申請租稅優惠措施本部已經召開多次的法規宣導說明會"},{"start":1955.068,"end":1973.264,"text":"向業者深入說明各項租稅優惠的措施及申請的方式鼓勵業者來善用政府的資源本次審查的會議共有12個版本提案的內容包括產業投資租稅優惠及對外投資管理機制產業園區用地用途"},{"start":1974.265,"end":1990.898,"text":"國家發展基金監管機制涉及的部會包括經濟部國家發展委員會財政部等請說明如下第一產業投資租稅優惠及對外投資管理機制委員所提案放寬設備投資遞減上限及增訂AI"},{"start":1994.02,"end":2009.45,"text":"節能設減碳項目修正對外投資管理規定及放寬投資新創事業租稅優惠適用要件等已經在經過本部114年修法的時候納入修正至於進一步要放寬新創事業"},{"start":2011.011,"end":2029.263,"text":"設立年限至8年考量與本部具創新能力之新創事業認定原則所定的設立年限一致可以支持令下修投資新創比例提高個人所得額減除上限增訂盈利事業投資新創租稅優惠並購"},{"start":2031.798,"end":2046.577,"text":"新創事業納入研發投資底線等有助於促進新創事業發展及鼓勵產業進行外部創新但仍以考量整體國家的財政的稅收第二產業園區用地"},{"start":2048.859,"end":2069.268,"text":"用途第一委員提案產業園區社區用地所佔的面積上限由現行10%提高至15%且限制該用地不得出售供興建住宅使用恐影響產業園區生產製造主要目的及產業用地公共設施用地的產性規劃"},{"start":2070.188,"end":2089.858,"text":"第二至於產業用地未依限期完成建築使用時其閒置用地改善的期限之展延不得超過兩年並以一次為限之修正方向本部隊展延均定有申請的要件且有相關審查的辦法將由委員會進行審理第三"},{"start":2091.051,"end":2117.791,"text":"國家發展基金監管機制委員提案於產創條例新增國家發展基金作業規範徵修基金用途及不得投資情形學者專家人選由立法院審查選轉門條款限制加嚴審理會議錄影則涉及國家發展基金投資審理與管理機制之規劃屬國家發展委員會執長的事項尊重該會的意見"},{"start":2118.832,"end":2145.309,"text":"感謝各位委員及黨團關心及支持產業發展提出多項的產業創新條例的修正修正案促進產業創新應用及引導投資新創是政府的重要責任本部將持續配合產業需求及國際的趨勢適時修法以營造有利於產業發展的環境以上報告敬請各位委員指教並祝各位身體健康 萬事如意謝謝謝謝經營部何市長的報告"},{"start":2148.217,"end":2174.072,"text":"下一位請國發會主委葉主委做報告主席各位委員信進大家好陳文貴委員會邀請就審查大院委員拟據產業創新條例部分條文修正草案本會就國家發展委員會及行政院國家發展基金"},{"start":2174.692,"end":2192.192,"text":"以下簡稱國家發展基金相關部分說明如下敬請各位委員先進不定指教有關邱志偉委員等17人擬拒修正條文第10條本會原則支持鼓勵企業以投資或併購新創帶動產業升級與新創發展之方向"},{"start":2196.636,"end":2216.568,"text":"為基於租稅公平及財政穩健的橫評考量建議由目的事業主管機關進行專業評估另外高風險創新科技新創事業資格認定為求專業與政策一致建議循現有機制由目的事業主管機關評估辦理為宜"},{"start":2218.689,"end":2235.995,"text":"那有關台灣民眾黨拟據產業創新條例部分條文修正草案本次修正條本次修正提案條文基於法律未接一致性實際執行之實務考量以及法律重複規範等"},{"start":2237.375,"end":2266.775,"text":"考量那本會建議不予修正那就法律未接一致性方面國家發展基金依產業創新條例設置行政院已訂定國家發展基金收支保管及運用辦法本次修法提案第30條之1至第30條之8已定於前述規範且與現行其他非營業特種基金法制規範未接一致"},{"start":2267.596,"end":2271.994,"text":"就實際執行之實務考量方面"},{"start":2273.188,"end":2298.213,"text":"有關修正條文第30條之一管理會須對市場與產業趨勢做出具實效性的決策委員產生程序將影響企業獲得政府資金支持之實效性且降低國家發展基金投資運作的靈活性那有關修正條文第30條之五行政院專案核准細微因應多變之"},{"start":2299.913,"end":2318.598,"text":"國際經濟情勢與政策需求現行程序系由提案主管機關進行專業評估後在經行證券審核程序後核定依據一定審查密度另外就修正條文第30條之8目前管理會"},{"start":2321.747,"end":2335.319,"text":"評審會、政策評估會均有錄音及會議紀錄出席人員以採記名秘密投票,倘新增全程錄影恐導致侷限意見表達影響意見表達之自主性與專業性"},{"start":2337.461,"end":2351.485,"text":"就法律重複規範方面有關修正條文第30條之七依全序部114年12月就公務員服務法函式規定職務職階相關之認定標準以新增投資業務關係及委託經營關係原國家發展基金從業人員業以納入相關規範就公務員之限制規定及處罰"},{"start":2367.21,"end":2392.924,"text":"以有一致之標準以符合平等之原則那未來國家發展基金將能將持續精進目前相關作業規範那參著大院委員提案內容調整並兼顧面對市場變化持續調整作業規範以達國家發展基金設立的宗旨那在這裡祝委員以及大家身體健康謝謝"},{"start":2396.598,"end":2420.283,"text":"謝謝 國安會業主委報告我想這個產商條例從99年到現在已經修14次上一次修法也是我當稍微的時候我主持修法在2025的時候那為什麼一年多又有12個版本代表說這個產業環境變化很迅速所以代表說這個產商條例對各產業的發展"},{"start":2423.206,"end":2431.911,"text":"都是息息相關的一些非常密切所以這部分所有提案版本我想我們都非常尊重也希望說行政部門包括"},{"start":2433.23,"end":2454.04,"text":"經濟部 國安會特別財政部能夠瞭解產業經營環境的變化能夠在以後在日後法案審查的時候我們能夠共同修正一個更好的一個版本讓產業有更好的經營環境好現在有提案委員 宗家斌委員要做提案說明 請宗家斌委員"},{"start":2462.191,"end":2487.245,"text":"主席在場的委員先進 列席人事委會會長 官員會長 工作夥伴這次產創條例的修正本席等20位委員我們提出的修正案主要是針對39條 46條以及46條之一其中我們看到的第39條其實重點是什麼就是過去我們在產業園區的開發當中當然為了鼓勵地方政府以及產業的需求我們可以"},{"start":2488.005,"end":2510.391,"text":"就相當的公有地或類似國營事業所持有的土地進行園區的開發這開發過程當中我們也設了一個這個園區使用的土地以產業用地不得少於60%那麼公設用地不得少於20%這是原來法律就有的規範但是它當中的規定說社區用地不得超過10%"},{"start":2513.252,"end":2535.712,"text":"聽好剛剛說的是兩邊是不得少於是60不得少於是20總共就不得少於是80這80都是用在產業工廠以及呢公社但是為什麼要有社區用地呢其實我們都知道在園區的開發當中有時候園區內部會有一些居民那這時候我們希望這些居民呢在這個園區劃設的過程當中"},{"start":2537.233,"end":2556.973,"text":"能夠維持他們既有的生活環境跟情境但是在另外一個意義上來講更重要的就園區的發展過程當中應該要對園區進出的員工提供生活上便利的服務設施這個未必是我們傳統所謂的公共設施比如說大陸污水是公共設施但是又拖活動"},{"start":2557.854,"end":2578.715,"text":"算不算公共設施其實這些社區用地它的性質可以同時兼顧原來的園區跟社區雙邊共有的需求試想一個園區劃設之後它的員工可能來自於當地附近的居民他們就是就近上班又可能來自鄰近縣市的居民他們就是通勤"},{"start":2579.275,"end":2594.334,"text":"但是過往的例子也有可能是屬於境外的譬如說移工這個時候他們需要在園區內部設置住宿的宿舍這種情況之下就會用到了社區用地在考察其他國家我就考察過法蘭西亞、檳城"},{"start":2595.835,"end":2618.522,"text":"這些有的園區的性質會使用大量的移工這些移工不可能在這個園區有購置土地因此勢必有廠商來興建宿舍來容納如果不興建宿舍來容納他們勢必在社區裡面去尋找而社區裡面如果是有大量的外地的移工過去在我們的社區例子裡面就會有形成生活習慣上的摩擦"},{"start":2619.562,"end":2647.316,"text":"作息不同農民很早就睡了但是移工可能三班制譬如說移工大量使用大量的機車但是在社區裡面可能已經沒有辦法負荷那麼多的個人的交通工具因此我們考量這一點將第39條、46條、46條之一我們做了調整其中10%社區用地的提高不得高於15%至於46條、46條之一我們限定了這些社區用地的使用性質以保障園區的開發"},{"start":2648.416,"end":2672.996,"text":"可以符合我們園區產業的需求 以上說明 謝謝好 謝謝鍾教兵委員的提案說明另外還有一次有關於本次會議包括財政部所提的書面報告請委員進行參閱並刊登公報財政部有沒有要說明好 那麼客氣好 我們何必尋答"},{"start":2673.959,"end":2702.262,"text":"委員進行前原例做以下宣告 每位委員發言時間本聯席會委員5分鐘 必要時延長1分鐘非本聯席會委員4分鐘 上午10點截止發言登記首先請第一位登記委員 邱瑩瑩委員謝謝主席 我請一下這個經濟部次長經濟部副次長"},{"start":2711.528,"end":2725.197,"text":"市長好,市長我想在我們談產創條例之前,還是要來跟您請教一下,我們的關稅的議題,我想還是持續在國內引起各界的關注,尤其是傳統產業界。"},{"start":2727.378,"end":2745.826,"text":"那高雄的這個扣件業尤其是首當其衝這232條款對他們來講其實影響其實是非常的大這個年產值超過1500億那尤其我們外銷到美國的這個市佔率大概佔了差不多四成到五成將近五成左右"},{"start":2747.426,"end":2772.415,"text":"次長您可不可以來簡要說明一下在這樣的一個高關稅的壓力之下其實我們的高雄的課件業者他們的訂單幾乎是趨近於零面對這麼高的關稅那再加上訂單沒有政府我們一直講說政府要給予他們協助那到底這個協助是不是能夠實質的對於我們的課件業者"},{"start":2774.456,"end":2793.585,"text":"產生實質的幫助實質的效果第二我想請教接下來我想還是會有持續一連串的這樣的一個談判協商溝通協調那到底我們的扣件業有沒有納入下一次的談判的產業之一來次長"},{"start":2795.875,"end":2816.97,"text":"委員很關切這個扣建產業的這個關稅的這個問題那我想這個也是經濟部這個鞏部長也非常關心的一件事情他在今年的2月也南下跟扣建業來做座談所以當場也給扣建業做出一些承諾我們成立了一個產業競爭力輔導團"},{"start":2819.412,"end":2834.404,"text":"我們會有一個專團來協助擴建產業的一個發展那另外我們在立法院的支持之下在特別預算裡面也編了460億元從研發到市場拓銷的這個部分還有融資的協助的部分也可以來協助我們"},{"start":2835.126,"end":2844.576,"text":"擴建產業的一個就因應這樣的一個關稅的一個衝擊那至於說下一階段是不是我們跟美國談判的部分會把這樣的一個議題納進來其實現在這個剛呂同"},{"start":2851.042,"end":2862.132,"text":"這個部分是美國川普總統非常寬切的一個項目尤其鋼鐵這個產業他一直希望能夠把鋼鐵產業能夠在美國"},{"start":2867.276,"end":2891.098,"text":"能夠回流在美國投資這個鋼鐵業所以它對全球鋼銅鋁的這個部分課徵這個50%的關稅它是全球性的這個我們都理解但我要談就是說您剛剛講的這些東西其實過去也談過很多次啦我要談 我要請教的是到底有沒有實質對我們的擴建業者"},{"start":2893.686,"end":2919.011,"text":"有實質的幫助那未來的這個談到你剛講川普對於這些鋼鋁銅的在乎所以他的關稅到50那其實川普是一個變動性蠻大的人所以未來我要談就是說我們在接下來的談判有可能的談判裡頭有沒有把這個扣件也把它列入一個談判的重點"},{"start":2921.148,"end":2947.046,"text":"有沒有我跟委員報告一下就是說其實像這一次我們跟美國的談判的這個部分其實航太用的這些這個扣件其實它是可以有優惠的這個豁免關稅的一個豁免所以這個也是我們未來要輔導產業的一個方向就是說我們現在扣件業可能做的可能都是一般"},{"start":2949.227,"end":2961.133,"text":"這個通用的這種構建那是不是可以針對美國他們需要的這些航太甚至就是說可能他需要的這個太空或是軍用的這些構建我們來輔導這個業者來做這方面的提升"},{"start":2966.296,"end":2991.23,"text":"所以我想這個也是我們接觸到幾個在高雄的擴建業者大概影響比較小的就是像次長您剛剛講他可能是做航太的零組件的所以他的影響相對會比較小但是大部分的傳產大部分的業者其實如何協助他們做產業轉型或者是創新也是我們今天在討論這個法案或者是說我們在討論台灣的整體經濟發展的一個重點因為我看"},{"start":2994.732,"end":3002.396,"text":"我看了一下這個包括國發會對於主計總署應該是主計總署對於我們今年的2026年的經濟成長率的預估是7.71%但是整個經濟成長率整個經濟的動能亮眼之處其實都是在AI科技的這個"},{"start":3014.702,"end":3035.386,"text":"AI的這個相關的產業鏈所以做AI的人其實是很有感但是做一般的傳統產業的人其實對於我們預估的這樣的一個經濟成長率或者是說大家覺得台灣的景氣是蓬勃發展相對那個體感是冰冷的那我想我們也不能一直成立在說AI帶來的紅利但是對於傳統產業的照顧我想這個也是經濟部應該要"},{"start":3040.668,"end":3058.242,"text":"齊頭並進的地方喔所以就這一點經濟部有什麼更具體的做法嗎當然我已經講的沒錯就是說我們現在這個正享受AI的紅利啦那其實AI它所創造的機會我們也希望這一次的傳產能夠把握住這樣的一個機會"},{"start":3059.102,"end":3074.855,"text":"那其實我們有很多船廠轉型成功的案例就是說像現在這個半導體設備的檢測的設備其實這個都是很高質化的一種工具機所以這個部分如果我們的船廠能夠轉得過來的話其實這部分可以創造"},{"start":3078.578,"end":3097.757,"text":"很大的這個價值那另外現在我們在發展五大信賴產業包括我們的無人機包括我們的機器人其實這些都是擴建的機會那擴建要進入到這些領域當然必須要有一些這個創新研發他可能也必須要經過一個認證所以這個都是門檻"},{"start":3100.86,"end":3127.601,"text":"所以經濟部就是透過法人跟我們扣建業者跟工會一起來協助我們產業能不能讓它高質化然後雙手轉型這個是我們經濟部的目標謝謝這個次長那我想下禮拜我們可能在經濟部的報告裡頭還有更多的時間可以做討論但是我覺得就創新這一點就傳產尤其扣建業者的輔導這一點我希望經濟部能夠做更多一些好不好謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":3128.422,"end":3135.814,"text":"好 謝謝邱營委員市長先回座消費執行委員請留書兵"},{"start":3151.88,"end":3156.765,"text":"稍等一下有PPT要放上去 那不然我們就先請國發會的葉主委 經濟部何市長"},{"start":3174.065,"end":3184.774,"text":"兩位好 產創條例的推動是為了要加速產業發展現行條例當中 民定行政院要設置國發基金來用這筆錢來投資民營事業來幫助發展"},{"start":3188.837,"end":3196.963,"text":"那國發基金呢用的是納稅人的錢那在投資企業結果呢我們看到它現在的投資的狀況呢虧損的加速呢從民國108年到111年還包括我們現在看到的113年的資料呈現出來呢虧損的加速呢比獲利的加速還多虧損加速達到50%以上當中這些企業裡面呢不只虧損還不夠誠信曾經也出現過像聯合再生的這樣的一個企業它得標之後呢卻"},{"start":3217.698,"end":3221.562,"text":"違約出售套利了2.63億就是一個違法的這件亂象就表示我們現行的依照行政院有國家發展基金收支保管及運用辦法成立的國發基金管理會它的運作是鬆散的然後傳出多次開會都沒有"},{"start":3234.775,"end":3259.901,"text":"人數不足決策品質不佳才會出現到這麼多情形這條的行政規則根本沒有辦法去守住所以我們民眾黨當然有提出來的29條跟30條的這樣的一個修訂我們主張的大家看到是國發會和國發基金的主管的管理機關要設置基金管理會也包括投資審議委員會包括做這樣的相關的審理等等的包括了這些項目等等的請問"},{"start":3261.541,"end":3280.82,"text":"包括還這個學者專家要立法院同意那旋轉門條款像建制加嚴等等的那限制用途這邊我們也蠻要先說一個部分因為你們在你們剛才的報告當中有提到這個限制的條款當中涉及到說屬於不得投資項目裡面我們其實看到是大家都一直在講到的是"},{"start":3281.781,"end":3299.741,"text":"對於不能作為企業的紓困然後也不能作為說是投資它的主要的營業項目是在中國大陸還有過去三年曾經違反到這些相關規定的這些看法等等的請李主委您回覆一下在這邊回應那個委員就是說我們國發基金從來不幫企業做紓困"},{"start":3300.382,"end":3311.319,"text":"我們只做投資所以這一點跟那個事實上有很大的差異第二個就是說假如說我們規定說只限定不能投資中國我覺得從業界那邊反應過來的話其實"},{"start":3314.457,"end":3322.744,"text":"主要項目主要項目 同時也在限制限制企業的那一個投資的規定但這個部分來講的話其實並不是那麼適合那麼硬性的規定但我們會在整個審議的過程當中在整個審議過程當中去考量這個部分那就委員提到的那一個"},{"start":3331.412,"end":3349.518,"text":"選者們條款呢經濟措施這部分我們在大院通過在那個調查委員會之後的話我們其實有採行大概九大的那個進進措施啦所以比如包括說勝選投資標的還有強化審議品質以及優化投資協議書還有修正投資事業管理分類以及增加風險預顯指標那定期檢討轉投資事業營運的狀況那透過董事會與胡同會強化投後管理"},{"start":3361.102,"end":3373.176,"text":"以及爭取設立投後管理專責部門以及精進退場機制這部分我們看到了我想要再問主委喔因為你在這個報告當中對於人事的部分旋轉門條款您特別提到是用的是就"},{"start":3376.139,"end":3395.015,"text":"公務人員服務法當中的一些含釋啊你知道含釋的意義是怎麼樣因為要求一致性可是含釋是在整個行政命令規則當中是最低層次的我們如果這次能夠修法可以把他所謂的這個旋轉門條讓他不要去跟照跟這樣的一個運作董建室的運作呢能夠是一個適用的人適合的人選的話那這個就會沒問題因為第一第一個就是說國發基金"},{"start":3400.339,"end":3419.514,"text":"也是一個非營業特種基金那我們國內有很多非營業特種基金那假如說只針對國發基金做這樣的一個限制的話其實就整個普遍性以及一致性來講的話其實不是相當的合理啦所以這表示你們全部都應該一起修訂以法為重這才是重點"},{"start":3419.974,"end":3442.945,"text":"因為第一個就是說像比如說剛剛委員有提到那個投資審議委員會這邊的話修正的版本要求就是說三分之二初期三分之二的同意但可能委員要去思考一下就是說這麼硬性的要求參與的人數以及同意的比例的話是不是反過來在想說是不是讓一些初期的委員一兩個委員有否決權"},{"start":3444.065,"end":3459.372,"text":"那這個部分來講的話可能必須要去考慮考慮就是說假如說今天只有一兩位委員反對的話那是不是這個案子就整個就翻盤掉了不管說是不是有七八位委員同意所以這個部分來講的話就整個機制設計這個部分的話我會建議委員就是說不見得就是說把那個修得越來越嚴的話其實是有利於整個案件的一個審查"},{"start":3470.237,"end":3493.282,"text":"也就是說我們在房地跟經濟中間可能要取得一個橫頻的一個角色等一下那我們就可以到深圳法律審查的時候再說那最後有一個問題要請教的是經濟部市長關於是在這個22條當中有些修法的部分因為跟67之3條嘛他並沒有就是因為沒有公佈啊因為是現在還沒有公佈吧那沒有實施生效對不對葉市長何市長"},{"start":3497.24,"end":3520.34,"text":"還沒還沒是還沒對那你們為什麼跳票了那大家最重要是因為經濟部的這邊涉及到了22條的是涉及到我們國安的這個技術要涉及到所謂經濟不利的條件那這些兩個因素裡面的最重要的是他沒有生效就沒辦法規範尤其是經濟部所提到的這個關於我們這樣關鍵的核心技術國家核心關鍵技術呢是在你們提出來的是N-1可是國"},{"start":3523.042,"end":3547.709,"text":"國科會是說出來的是N-2這樣的條件那請問一下你們再用經濟部的立場來說一下不然維持的是N-1還是N-2請說一下國家我們政府的立場跟委員報告好了我們這個在就有現有的那個產量條例裡面針對那個這個審查的機制本來就已經有了那剛委員講到N-1 N-2那個只是針對大陸"},{"start":3549.469,"end":3564.159,"text":"我們到大陸去投資的話所以我們沒有對美國設防我們還是有這樣的一個審查機制當然我們的審查機制是從整個國家的安全還有整個技術的是不是會造成產業的一個競爭力的影響"},{"start":3566.901,"end":3580.751,"text":"整體的一個部分我們會去做審查所以你才是沒有辦法肯定說對美國部分這個對中國對美國是沒有設限我們是最先進會留在台灣那現在最先進是多少技術呢是多少奈米呢"},{"start":3582.102,"end":3607.173,"text":"現在美國是4奈米跟3奈米那我們台灣已經是2奈米好 劉委員 歡迎時間到等一下 我就最後一句話因為已經確定是美國明年2027年就要施行2奈米的好 謝謝好 這部分呢 之後的問題呢也許我們就用書面的方式呈現那就謝謝各位我們要知道要保護住台灣的一個經濟上面的一個國家的核心技術關鍵是非常重要的而且民國它的技術一定要調味一定要明確好 謝謝謝謝委員好 請先回座"},{"start":3614.505,"end":3641.796,"text":"這個主席還是要先宣告一下為了會議進行的順利並兼顧每位委員發言時間的公平性避免影響下一位委員質詢的權利請質詢委員於質詢時間結束之後應該要停止發言如果繼續發言主席會一直站 一直站 一直看 一直看請各位盡量配合 下一位質詢請蔡議員"},{"start":3648.814,"end":3667.721,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們是有請經濟部次長經濟部何市長跟國發會國發會葉主委葉主委委員好次長跟主委雖然剛剛又講到這個國發基金的投資啦那基本上"},{"start":3669.062,"end":3682.622,"text":"我們在看國發基金投資並不是每一項投資都可以叫做百分之百會投資成功如果百分之百都是投資成功的話這些國發基金的委員可能都自己出來投資了大概也沒有人想帶在國發會"},{"start":3684.805,"end":3711.313,"text":"得嘞 我要強調事實上還是很多很成功的投資國華基金目前最成功的投資大概就是那一支藥華藥吧他現在已經把他國內生產的這個血小板或者是紅血球的抗血癌賣到全世界尤其賣到美國美國現在他的一級用藥都是用這一支投資的藥這是國華基金非常成功的一個投資項目"},{"start":3712.693,"end":3724.24,"text":"謝謝委員的說明 對就是藥華藥這一支其實我們投資這一家藥廠其實已經二三十年了那這一家藥廠其實剛開始的話虧損年年剛開始也是虧損 因為它一直在會有獲利大概是這幾年的事啊可是它獲利後變成國發機 變成一隻大金庫 金雞母"},{"start":3734.465,"end":3757.099,"text":"那這個也是我們國發基金的投資的標的都是早期以及新創的一個事業所以投資事業不能說早期的虧損就直接否決掉說他的努力就直接說都沒有效很多事情這個投資還是要慢慢的累積然後累積到了技術啦什麼都成熟了自然他就會有獲益了不是嗎"},{"start":3757.679,"end":3774.793,"text":"那就我們就國發基金整體的營運績下來看的話就是說我們114年的淨值達到兩兆九千億元左右那加計累歷年的剩餘累計交庫的數額的話大概有3365億元所以比原本我們原本"},{"start":3776.134,"end":3783.017,"text":"波幅投資的金額309億來講的話整個資產成長的大概有105倍左右那105年到114年的獲利較前10年成長大概3.5倍那105年之後的投後投資的轉投資事業動總共有36家那一直到114年12月31日為止的話總共投資大概303億元左右那已經回收了大概八成"},{"start":3800.123,"end":3827.194,"text":"那持股市值的話目前市值大約是537億元左右那高於整個投資成本大概5.57倍對 就是這樣啦就是說我們不希望投資的時候這過程有弊案只要在沒有弊案的前提之下我還是認為國發基金在輔導這些新創企業就是要秉持著更開放而且更支持他們讓他們覺得在創業的初期有得到我們國發基金"},{"start":3829.215,"end":3837.018,"text":"這個非常大力給他們勇氣的一個力道這樣才是對的吧所以主委應該秉持著這樣就是說一定是要嚴防查閉不能有閉案但是要用心的大力的支持我們國家的新創產業這個態度一定要這樣接下來我來請教次長"},{"start":3850.484,"end":3864.819,"text":"就市場我之前也有在跟經濟部談過我們嘉義在設置海淡廠但是我們一直很擔心因為海淡廠咧它的未來這個海淡它的水費的計算那一直有人跟我說"},{"start":3865.7,"end":3887.768,"text":"要會把現在在做填海造陸的費用納為海淡廠的費用這件事我覺得不合理不合理的就在於說因為這個填海造陸10公頃的土地並不是百分之百作為海淡廠使用如果你把這一筆算入海淡廠的費用未來怎麼有企業敢去使用加海淡廠產生的水水費可能可能一坨水要70幾坨"},{"start":3892.707,"end":3899.445,"text":"怎麼能有誰再去敢去用啊價格的落差太大所以市場這部分的調整有順利嗎"},{"start":3901.068,"end":3917.281,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們會跟院裡面來申請公共建設的預算那如果爭取成功的話這個部分我們是不會納入到水價的核算確定不會納入嗎好那這個很重要那第二個我要跟次長再講一下因為我們現在經濟部在我們嘉義有兩個產業園區的開發一個是水上南進一個是中埔的公館水上南進因為在開發的過程發現有文化遺址所以他的開發進度比較慢"},{"start":3928.189,"end":3936.434,"text":"那中埔已經開發而且都在招商 招商的也順利 但是這些廠商有來跟我反應就是說水善南進最近有在做租金的調整 租金的調整之後 他們一坪會變成150塊跟我們現在馬籌後產業園區的租金是一坪120塊 這兩個的租金之間是有落差的"},{"start":3950.962,"end":3976.48,"text":"那馬酬厚基本上他是由台糖以及我們縣政府來合作來招商目前還沒有開始正式招商但是他的價格落在150塊反而我們已經有招商的中埔跟水上價格是150塊這個話會讓這些廠商覺得是有相對的一些落差的感覺所以他們認為有沒有可能這個時候可以跟馬酬厚水上南進"},{"start":3978.061,"end":4004.268,"text":"畢竟不管是台塘啦還是我們現在經濟部都一樣是經濟部管的一些企業啊有沒有可能在租金上來做一個讓他們一樣的一致呢根本報告喔那因為這個馬酬的租金的部分是那個嘉義縣政府這邊他們所這個來推案定可是還是要尊重台塘啊最後還是台塘確定啊"},{"start":4005.108,"end":4029.807,"text":"因為他的土地是台塘的我們縣政府是協力他去做招商我們現在跟縣政府這邊來了解的結果縣政府是表示說大概會等到台積電他COAS第三場來報開工跟凍土之後預計在今年的4到5月會來重新審定租金的價格"},{"start":4031.508,"end":4059.569,"text":"所以這個部分也許啦剛剛可能價格也許會再做一些調整市長也說一下好消息啦台積電扣瓦斯第三場已經正式開工了所以在這幾天也開工了這也是一個很重要的對我們家也很重要的一個訊息所以接下來在馬籌後這一個半導體的供應鏈也就是我們說馬籌後的原中原這一塊後續的招商麻煩市長再打算協力一下好不好"},{"start":4059.909,"end":4063.75,"text":"好 沒問題 拜託了 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝蔡議員 令人感動的資訊謝謝來 下一位質詢 請謝一鋒委員"},{"start":4085.627,"end":4100.117,"text":"謝謝主席我想要請國發會葉主委以及我們經濟部的何次長主委早請教一下到底中東衝突什麼時候結束"},{"start":4101.837,"end":4121.383,"text":"美國他說很快結束但是目前看起來並沒有這麼快結束有一些智庫報告就是說機率比較大是在四周到八周內會結束那是美國智庫嗎可是伊朗好像說不會伊朗說不可能這麼快結束"},{"start":4122.065,"end":4143.329,"text":"是不是不能單方面對對對對但智庫是是說機率比較高是在四周到八周所以現在行政院你們所推估的政策裡面以及我們現在在在中東的原物料的相關的供應你們推估都是很快結束的這個scenario是不是"},{"start":4147.927,"end":4167.859,"text":"因為整個物價的穩定行政院的政府院長他每週都會召開物價穩定小組會議我是在問說你們推估的就是說這個中東沖煮很快結束嗎四到六週結束嗎但是如果超過半年呢"},{"start":4168.94,"end":4193.585,"text":"那目前我們現在的像氦氣這是半導體的就是供應鏈裡面重要的原物料那如果中東的衝突超過半年以上那半導體的原物料像氦氣以及我那天也問過了像農業肥料的這個液態氮等到底會不會斷裂"},{"start":4198.326,"end":4203.51,"text":"跟我們報告 氦氣是不會斷鏈的因為氦氣主要的供應當然是來自卡達佔三分之一但是我們的氦氣的供應是來自於我們的這個三大氣體商就包括蓮華還有這個三福因為卡達它是最重要的就是說你在LNG生產過程當中的這個它是這個那個"},{"start":4227.869,"end":4250.255,"text":"它的氦氣的這個副產品是LNG生產的副產品那如果你不是從卡達不是從荷姆治海峽那你是從哪裡來你說最主要是美國美國是不是對所以這部分絕對是不會有斷鏈的情況所以美國會無限度的供應我們所以這個我們跟三大氣體商都已經確認過了所以美國會供應我們不會斷氣的情況"},{"start":4255.396,"end":4269.525,"text":"所以半導體的供應鏈是沒有影響的絕對沒有問題沒有影響的半年以上呢絕對沒有問題那半年以上都不會有問題嗎是所以美國有承諾你是因為我們的溢價能力很高"},{"start":4270.846,"end":4289.733,"text":"對 我們半導體的溢價能力很高所以美國有承諾就對了應該說我們三大汽體商他們跟我們的這個半導體產業其實是緊密連結的而且他是供應他是他們很大量的這個供應商所以這部分是沒有問題的"},{"start":4290.433,"end":4317.055,"text":"那我請教一下喔你說的是你們今天我們產算條例在講的是納入AI跟減碳的項目嘛那這個部分其實AI以及減碳的項目在雖然說上限是20億喔可是大部分現在我遇到的中小企業來講他們認為這都是否半導體等這種大型企業對於中小企業呢"},{"start":4317.555,"end":4337.247,"text":"你有沒有辦法協助中小企業他也許有一些傳產他甚至沒有辦法有AI的設備啊AI的伺服器啊等等的這怎麼樣處理呢是其實我們這個申請案裡面也不見得全部都是大企業啦也有許多是中小企業因為我們現在就"},{"start":4339.349,"end":4352.175,"text":"從這個修法的條例裡面當然是一視同仁嘛可是我說的是中小企業對於就是說他AI升級的需求以及減碳需求就不像是半導體產業這麼大嘛那這樣子的情況下還有他們沒有辦法馬上立即的進入AI的生產嘛所以"},{"start":4360.939,"end":4377.452,"text":"你們怎麼樣子協助他們嘛因為你怎麼樣協助他能夠適應這個AI的生產以及現在AI的生產也發生了問題嘛對不對我們也看到了AI現在生產的那個養龍蝦的效應等等的"},{"start":4380.09,"end":4401.957,"text":"不代表說AI的生產就馬上能夠適用於所有企業的生產的結構裡面我們也考慮到委員這個問題因為中老企業畢竟它的資源比較少所以我們廣布長也成立了輔導團來協助我們中老企業而且我們這次要配合461的特別預算"},{"start":4402.637,"end":4417.206,"text":"所以也鼓勵這個企業做雙手轉型他們在採購設備的部分我們可以有4成的補助那也就是說他如果採購設備的話也可以來享受我們這樣的一個投資低減對我說的就是說第一個當然你說輔導團我就說在怎麼樣子第一個啦"},{"start":4423.27,"end":4441.484,"text":"我們就是需要移轉就是除了美國以外移轉其他的那個其他的就是說出口的國但是其他出口國裡面還遇到了現在就是成長疲弱的問題因為就是因為這個對等關稅歐洲啦其他國家可能都面臨到"},{"start":4443.09,"end":4457.556,"text":"這些疲弱問題甚至中東本來有機會上漲你看中東現在又面臨到中東的衝突等等那這樣子的情況下大家怎麼轉你知道嗎現在是全球都都很難轉欸是對 那你要怎麼轉是"},{"start":4458.796,"end":4478.938,"text":"當然我們希望這個戰事能夠趕快結束現在其實很多台灣的傳產業者其實也受惠於我們政府的一些政策所以你們還是預估你們沒有預估超過半年以上的情況嗎"},{"start":4480.9,"end":4496.837,"text":"你們目前都沒有預估超過半年以上有可能就超過半年以上完全就是在川普總統的決策當然我們是要做足完全的準備你們有沒有預估我們也無從預估你們沒有半年以上的"},{"start":4502.683,"end":4522.277,"text":"預估的當然我們會用把各種我現在講的只是半導體的供應鏈那其實油啊或者是其他的有沒有肥料等等的這都會相關的影響嗎其實這個每一週我們都有針對這樣的一個物價穩定的部分在行政院副院長的這樣的一個層級來討論所以"},{"start":4525.339,"end":4542.025,"text":"也就是說這個戰事維持多久我們這個機制也就會因應這樣的一個需要會做討論所以我想這個院裡面也都有做出了準備主席再講我沒有就是我也要"},{"start":4543.045,"end":4565.974,"text":"結束我的質詢 但是我發現可能我們行政院一定要預估超過半年以上相關的原物料以及這些物價的因應的方式 我們都會準備好謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝馮委員 時間掌握非常精準市長先回座消費資金請鄭振前委員"},{"start":4576.864,"end":4578.556,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下經濟部和次長經濟部和次長"},{"start":4586.767,"end":4612.442,"text":"蔡委員好次長好我想說產創條例2010年實施以來一直是台灣推動產業轉型跟技術研發很重要的一個核心法案我想說我今天針對我們在產創條例按照第十之二條的一個訂定的一個執法就是有關於公司前瞻創新研究發展及先進製程設備支出適用投資抵減辦法這個裡面"},{"start":4613.863,"end":4635.541,"text":"因為我特別提到一個狀態就是研發費用如果在60億元然後在營收6%的情況之下的時候它有機會可以得到25%的高研發的一個抵減那我今天要特別講的一個狀態的情況是說因為針對這樣的一個部分立法其實非常的好"},{"start":4636.161,"end":4655.169,"text":"可是因為台灣有很多隱形冠軍他們未必是規模這麼大他們可能是中型的一個企業可是既然是隱形冠軍就表示他們其實有很多可取的地方那如果說沒有繼續投入研發的時候可能他們這個隱形冠軍以後真的就會被隱形掉了"},{"start":4655.489,"end":4675.682,"text":"就不會再是冠軍所以針對這個部分我們有沒有考慮針對這個60億元的研發費用的部分有可能可以下修讓這些台灣有很多的隱形冠軍可是規模沒有那麼大的企業也能夠適用可不可以請次長做個說明跟委員報告其實委員看到了這個條文其實業者也有跟"},{"start":4679.004,"end":4703.518,"text":"我們經濟部來反映也就是說這個要同時達到研發60億然後又同時要佔營收的6%研發經費佔6%這看起來就是說他們在試用上會有一些困難那這個部分我想我們也會跟財政部這邊再來討論一下那把這個意見在我們那個院裡面可能"},{"start":4704.605,"end":4721.934,"text":"我們希望能夠再幫業者反映這個問題我們再來做討論因為我覺得這個部分就台灣除了說有很多半導體產業很厲害之外他們很輕而易舉可以滿足這樣的一個規模可是很多隱形冠軍我們也要顧到他們好不好"},{"start":4722.947,"end":4737.579,"text":"好 那接下來就是說我們去年產創條例修正之後 我有把節能減碳跟AI的一個投資抵檢都納入這個相關規定當中可是就是很多中小企業在申請那個節能減碳這相關的一個投資抵檢"},{"start":4738.46,"end":4759.142,"text":"碰到一個認證上的一個很大的困難不管碳排查啦或者是合格設備的認定等等讓我們的政策美意打了折扣針對這個部分我想請教次長我們有沒有怎麼樣的做法能夠協助廠商得到一些跨部會的一個協助然後來簡化這些行政流程"},{"start":4760.022,"end":4776.396,"text":"根本包括其實我們產發署這邊都可以來協助廠商來做認定尤其我們有很多的法人可以透過這個輔導團可以來幫忙廠商申請各項不管是租稅優惠也好或說他要做研發補助也好我們會啟動這樣的一個機制"},{"start":4778.217,"end":4802.199,"text":"OK 那針對AI整個投資的部分李簡因為它限定在全新的硬體還有軟體技術或相關的服務可是我在想說有一些企業他們在開發AI的模型投入的一個算力的成本跟軟體的一個訂閱的費用是被排除在外的針對這個部分我們有沒有可能把它給納入變成投資的一個內容是"},{"start":4803.949,"end":4811.956,"text":"我想這個軟體的部分應該還是可以可以任列啦 算力投入也可以購買算力的部分都可以投入嗎都可以變成抵檢的一個內容嗎這個部分我們再來跟"},{"start":4824.568,"end":4849.682,"text":"另外一個部分就是因為現在國際上面針對高階人才搶人其實變得很重要那台灣因為少子化問題很嚴重所以我們怎麼樣讓人才持續能夠穩定來支持台灣那個產業發展讓它變成一個國家的一個戰略因為事實上在香港新加坡他們都有一個很特別的一個情況就是說針對那個企業如果高薪去"},{"start":4851.553,"end":4879.367,"text":"聘僱一些專業的高階人才的時候他們的高薪的支出跟那個海外延攬費用都可以進入一個租稅抵免的狀態我們台灣針對這部分好像還沒有那我們有沒有考慮把它納入然後來跟周邊的一些國家去做一個比較好的一個競爭其實我們在產創條例或中小企業發展條例裡面對研發支出的這個投資都是有投資體檢的所以它延攬這方面的人力的部分"},{"start":4879.747,"end":4898.568,"text":"研發技術我理解我是說針對一些高階人力的一個聘用跟一些海外的獵頭等等的狀態有沒有辦法把他納進我們已經有納進來了就是說他如果是屬於那個研發人力的部分他在產創條例裡面他就可以認獵是在投資抵檢的這個費用裡面好 那"},{"start":4899.308,"end":4916.375,"text":"那最後這部分的時候我想特別請教一個情況因為那個針對那個審計部其實有針對我們在法人科專的這個部分那法人科專其實坦白說我們看到過去這幾年的一個"},{"start":4918.216,"end":4932.508,"text":"質詢力情況都不錯那審計部有針對我們法輪科專之後的商業化的一個運用跟量產的一個部分進行後續的一個追蹤的一個情況那針對這個部分的時候我們"},{"start":4934.409,"end":4960.177,"text":"感覺數字上並沒有特別的漂亮針對商業化跟量產化的部分針對這個部分我們經濟部這邊有沒有更具體的做法比方說針對我們季轉之後我們目前只追蹤是一年那我們會不會有更長的一個追蹤然後針對我們季轉之後的一個商品化跟量產化能夠有更好的一個運用因為這才是我們真正做科專的一個目的"},{"start":4960.757,"end":4969.781,"text":"我可以請次長做一個簡單的回應跟委員報告其實我們技術師每年也都會去做查核也就是說剛剛委員所指出的這個問題那我們會了解一下他在產業應用的這個狀況那當然就是說如果他能夠把這樣的技術"},{"start":4978.724,"end":5006.013,"text":"來申請我們政府的這個研發的一個補助的一個計畫那當然這個就可以讓他的這個技術他能夠去落實落地能夠在應用上面針對這個部分我想說再請我們相關的單位到本辦公室做一個更詳細的一個說明因為針對這個我們科專之後科專計轉之後的一個落實我覺得其實是我們真正的目的那我們希望看到具體的一個成果好不好好的謝謝"},{"start":5007.934,"end":5009.795,"text":"主席我們請次長請經濟部何市長"},{"start":5032.618,"end":5061.476,"text":"市长我想你几次到台南我们考察的时候然后跟我们企业去做一个沟通其实我想我们现在中央有很多专案辅导也编了很多预算包括转型AI或是智慧我相信这个部分我们真的希望能够跟国际接轨可是现在是有资讯落差"},{"start":5062.659,"end":5088.127,"text":"也就是說中央的預算每一次到了南部基本上時間都過了等到他們提出案子也都來不及現在我們產發署在我們台南有我們的分署這也是我們當時候說每次北中南就把台南跳過"},{"start":5089.369,"end":5114.335,"text":"那现在我们组织重整之后台南分属有了那我们怎么利用这个台南分属结合经济部结合市政府的工业区以及我们周边民间的工业区我们把它纳进来成为一个平台所以我在10月27号的时候去年"},{"start":5115.677,"end":5132.217,"text":"我們經濟委員會到台南考察我就要求說我們經濟部要跟台南各個園區的廠協會還有市政府所管轄的工業區要有一個聯繫平台好我們現在"},{"start":5133.581,"end":5162.388,"text":"给我的资料是说在去年10月30号就已经有建立了台南劳资政共好劳资政共好情资平台的LINE群组然后加入的群组总共9个园区中央管辖的5个园区新宜 关铁 永康 安平 台南地方管辖的4个园区河顺 新籍 永康 总头寮"},{"start":5163.669,"end":5183.83,"text":"全部都進來了嗎市長全部都進來了嗎目前是有59位的成員就包括這些沒有我先講原區市長跟幹部我先講原區原區之後再講幹部原區的工業區我跟同仁確認一下好嗎都進來了嗎"},{"start":5187.898,"end":5203.893,"text":"目前是有九個園區啊我說中央管轄的是五個園區嘛地方管轄的是四個園區嘛那你把台南的整個工業區都納進來了嗎是嗎是嗎是嗎我再強調是嗎麻豆你就沒有納進來了還有"},{"start":5215.611,"end":5238.529,"text":"亞太周邊的很多民間的工業區就沒有納進來這個部分我想我們再把它納進來我們請我們的原管局這邊來馬上來討論要全部納進來好的全部納進來你才能說他的正副理事長還有幹部是不是都有納進來是"},{"start":5241.512,"end":5269.386,"text":"你這個本體都還沒有全部納進來你怎麼能夠說他所有的人員都有納進來好我們現在包括市政府相關局處還有原管理局我們的所有分局還有地區的園區服務中心這個納進來可是我們相關的有沒有直接把我們的訊息給他包括"},{"start":5270.782,"end":5297.712,"text":"我們幾個要輔導產業轉型的包括什麼我們智慧機械115年4月才開放申請還有我們的雲端解決方案點數補助計畫也是115年4月才開放申請還有AI工具庫點數補助計畫也是4月才申請"},{"start":5299.315,"end":5326.53,"text":"我們看到產業升級創新平台輔導計畫全年都可以申請還有我們的產業升級相關傳統的部分我們怎麼個案輔導研發輔導還有我們的轉型輔導等等這個目前都還可以申請有把這個資料在這個平台當中顯示出來嗎"},{"start":5328.09,"end":5350.576,"text":"跟我們報告我們現在做兩件工作第一個就是委員講的還沒有加入我們趕快把它加入第二個我會要求我們的同仁把所有我們園區廠商他可以適用的這些輔導的方案全部把它整理完之後我們就放在這樣的一個平台裡面對啊這樣子才會有成效嘛是"},{"start":5351.636,"end":5380.647,"text":"也就是說跟他講請他們這些幹部要跟園區的我們的廠商說明我們有這些計畫有這些輔導專案然後呢我們一定要專案輔導而不是用一個標準這樣太簡單了啦我們的輔導單位你要針對每一個需求去個別協助"},{"start":5382.267,"end":5392.846,"text":"如果他只有一個樣態每一個企業他所面臨的問題是一樣的嗎?不一樣他一定要針對他們的需求性"},{"start":5394.062,"end":5413.511,"text":"所以當有工業區有提出需求你們就要要求他們去到現場個別輔導是可以嗎可以可以因為搭配我們現在的輔導團我們其實都已經有建立這樣的一個機制只是這訊息的傳播可能向文跟我們提醒的可能還沒有辦法把"},{"start":5414.491,"end":5428.16,"text":"這些工業區我們都把它涵蓋在裡面這個要拜託你這個如果沒有全部拉進來它的成效不會出來是的地方跟中央的資訊就沒有辦法很直接的落實是所以拜託"},{"start":5429.557,"end":5454.494,"text":"我們的經濟部辛苦一點我們既然有這麼好的協助方案我們就應該讓每一個廠商都能夠資訊透明都能夠很清楚得到中央的補助跟協助協助他們做計畫的一個申請然後怎麼寫怎麼規劃這才是最重要的再拜託 謝謝"},{"start":5460.264,"end":5460.99,"text":"下一位質詢 請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":5475.516,"end":5490.662,"text":"主席 再讓委員先進 列席政務局長 總管委員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請經濟部核次長 還有原區產業發展署的邱署長還有原區管理局的曾副局長產業原區管理局的曾副局長"},{"start":5495.091,"end":5514.861,"text":"市長好來我先你看一下新聞他這裡說什麼移工放煙火啦吵到被報案找到失聯移工那麼外籍移工夜夜高歌居民受不了你覺得這些新聞報導好像把移工很負面的貼標籤好像社區跟移工有這些摩擦你有沒有聽過有沒有看過這樣的新聞"},{"start":5515.481,"end":5543.172,"text":"有其實我這些照片顯現出來已經是比較管理好的地方機車排得整齊裡面的宿舍還住得還算是有序為什麼會有這些摩擦我想看其實就是文化及生活習慣還有作息造成的社區超載舉例來講園區我們開發後業者他通常不會把寶貴的土地買來蓋宿舍但是他的業界又大量的使用移工移工的話就交給仲介去處理仲介幹嘛仲介他的附近的社區"},{"start":5544.412,"end":5560.75,"text":"這些產業園區開發後周邊的社區很多都是老舊的部落有的小孩搬出去了整棟沒人住租下來怎樣租金便宜但是一旦這些人進駐之後怎樣機車進出停放因為他連搬嘛"},{"start":5561.511,"end":5588.072,"text":"大家在睡覺了他那邊進出然後呢然後他的垃圾啊因為不落地居民乖乖的七點鐘晚上垃圾菜來丟掉移工他沒有辦法所以就堆積在那裡這些其實就是說明了什麼在既有的農村社會如果在園區旁邊搬來了很多的移工他會不會造成這個衝突你覺得會不會會那怎麼解決是不是在園區裡面廠商他要蓋宿舍給他們住"},{"start":5589.13,"end":5607.673,"text":"是不是這樣你不用點頭你可以說是或不是是嗎如果廠商有能力的話對 廠商有能力要法規配合要給土地來往下看現在我們的產狀條例當中原來的規定是它有產業用地 社區用地跟公設用地公設大家想到什麼汙水處理 電力 道路"},{"start":5608.354,"end":5623.908,"text":"那什麼是社區用地就是因為產業進駐之後它的員工產生了一些需求叫社區性的需求使於住勤育樂的可以不超過10%就是因為限了這個10%所以呢造成大家覺得園區都要用來蓋廠房"},{"start":5625.149,"end":5651.133,"text":"做道路做污水沒有想到這裡面工作人的需求所以我們現在呢你看我的修正條文第一他就把這個比例提高到15但是他的使用用途限制盡量讓園區的土地不要發出售給外面的人蓋住宅也不是賣給員工盡量保持在我們的地區裡面園區裡面解決園區的居住需求你同不同意"},{"start":5652.791,"end":5666.904,"text":"當然委員提案的這個方向如果說我們在一些園區它的面積是大的話其實是有空間是的當然如果不大你這個員工的多園居住需求就要想來員工有三種"},{"start":5667.805,"end":5687.614,"text":"我產業進來了我就附近的居民招聘嘛啊這些人就是走路或騎機車嘛如果是外縣市的他就怎樣開車嘛或者這邊租房子買房子嘛那移工他就不可能在這邊買房子他一定是希望什麼住宿舍還有沒有其他的需求要滿足來我告訴你來有沒有看到這個破舊的照片"},{"start":5689.028,"end":5717.072,"text":"這是辦事之前喉洞內療宅的礦工住宅聽到礦工住宅你有感受到嗎前年的總統大選礦工住宅是不是炒飯店當時那時候開礦公司有給員工土地蓋房子嗎沒有啊員工在那裡住在那裡走後來有沒有配住土地可以蓋房子很大的問題所以園區開發前原居民被迫遷離有沒有 你知不知道有沒有你有沒有管過台堂"},{"start":5719.431,"end":5746.821,"text":"有 你知道台塘很多土地來開發園區是我告訴你 很多台塘的土地原來裡面的佔用因為台塘啊 就是廢下地啊很多是以前的人家祖先 農民在那裡做事住在廢下地裡面台塘結構後 他們沒有土地所有權後來這個土地開發成園區他們根據原條文有沒有辦法去要求配購土地來蓋住宅呢現有條文可不可以"},{"start":5747.952,"end":5758.621,"text":"現在不行 不行嘛所以要想到我們原區的開發這個條例要適用各種的情境所以像這種的原住戶的也應該在外來修董的時候納入你支不支持"},{"start":5760.539,"end":5781.144,"text":"當然這個考量納入啦是好謝謝那我們現在看現在當然就有這個機制就是說這個流射的這個用地本來就是要為了要可能有一些原始的物物但你條文裡面要把它清楚好其實呢很多人喜歡科學園區科學園區科學園區來啊周邊的土地漲啊如果我這一個住宅的我的房屋稅會提高啊"},{"start":5782.024,"end":5806.899,"text":"但是呢我的孩子想要回來跟我住買不去啦你也知道這個情況所以我們在修法的時候要考量到園區的開發不是考量到產業的產業用地的需求我再講一個例子很快的時間校內的師生跟校外的社區共用超商有沒有看過在四大陸超商呢一面對學校的師生一面對社區因為寒暑假沒有師生的時候超商經營的下去所以創造三隱是"},{"start":5807.559,"end":5833.292,"text":"類似這樣的設施就是社區用地可以用的往下看像我們屏東頭前溪產業園區那個部落沒有多餘的地可以做道路但是如果園區在擴展的時候把道路的需求內外的需求也考量進去因為我們在園區擴建的時候這考量到園區的道路滿足園區廠商的互通沒有想到園區的員工四五千個從外面進來他使用外面周邊社區的道路會不夠"},{"start":5834.392,"end":5862.495,"text":"可是園區擴充的時候會把周邊的交通東西納進去嗎?沒有我們投錢溪,我希望擴區的時候把周邊的地納進去園區做什麼?公房啊,公房我找不出,我又不去出房啊但是你公房出,站進來你可以做道路讓園工出來不用經過古堡、古石窟你現在有沒有看過這樣的想法?有有嗎?要想辦法解決好,最後呢我們就說公社應該兼具園區跟周邊社區的需求包括拖鷹、拖幼、活動中心、長照"},{"start":5863.776,"end":5890.649,"text":"這個時候納入我們的園區的開發推動才會順利最後的結論就是有一個醫療法人納產創條例來署長這個有跟你表達過了這個是不是你們帶回去研究一下因為目前的醫療財團法人受到很多的限制他們希望能納入產創條例23條之三把衛生分泌營餘列入檢測項目你們回去研究一下因為主管機關有衛福部好不好 署長可以拿回去研究嗎好 我們拿回去研究好 拜託市長把這個問題也帶回去思考一下謝謝好 謝偉"},{"start":5893.226,"end":5910.044,"text":"謝謝總教兵委員消費資源請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言人邀請國防會主委國防會議員主委委員長"},{"start":5915.31,"end":5923.66,"text":"主要好 本期在跟你討論我們今天產業創新條例那麼主要的目的是要提供在這個"},{"start":5925.745,"end":5954.19,"text":"抵檢的部分跟租稅優惠的部分本席也提案未來會陸續併上來一起討論所以本席在這邊首先要請教產業創新條例到目前為止我們在去年的4月份主要因應社會整個一個情勢所以包括了AI包括了節能減碳的這個項目包括了生意科技"},{"start":5954.75,"end":5969.296,"text":"5G的部分那這是目前全球性的一個趨勢所以因此我們在去年4月份修改了這個部分加入了這些面向那但是在整個條件上食物上本身認為誘因並不足"},{"start":5971.757,"end":5988.269,"text":"那你如果優因不足會影響到整個企業以及民間的這個投資呢他願意要加入我們新創事業的一個意願所以呢首先我們也有同仁也提出所以本集提出的修正草案是將"},{"start":5989.17,"end":5996.553,"text":"研發以及投資體檢的比例由原現行的最高15%來提高至30%投資體檢的部分上限由30%提高到50%同時新創事業認定我們現行的是5年"},{"start":6007.797,"end":6028.166,"text":"但是有很多他在研議的時候並沒有辦法在這個5年當中可以讓他們放心所以本市認為應該要將這個年限由5年來放寬到8年那還有個人的部分提高個人投資減除的部分由現在的500萬"},{"start":6029.947,"end":6059.427,"text":"現在的500萬來提高到1000萬來符合整個產業實際上需要的一個發展需求所以在這種情況之下本席要請教主委透過提高投資低減的比例放寬新創產業它的一個年限跟提高個人的投資誘因來強化民間便宜投入到我們創新的產業的方向那請教主委你的看法"},{"start":6059.747,"end":6089.168,"text":"好謝謝委員就那個新創事業認定年限從五年到放寬到八年這個部分我們原則上這個方向我們是支持的那為什麼你們自己為什麼會沒有版本呢本席覺得邏輯有一點奇怪啊你去年通過加注這些項目那你現行就是五年啊還好你同意本席的提案將五年的年限來你同意是八年嘛好這一個達成共識啊"},{"start":6089.608,"end":6105.734,"text":"這一個部分再跟委員說明一下就是說這一個5年到8年以及個人投資減儲還有那一個研發投資低減比例從15到30這個部分是經濟部這邊在主導所以當然我們會請經濟部對因為你是督導單位嘛好那請經濟部也一併上一同討論因為國發會你是督導單位啊而且你是負責協調聯繫各部會的啊來經濟部"},{"start":6116.638,"end":6133.964,"text":"跟委員報告現在他同意他同意五年那八年來接下來是其實這個部分我們是有共識的五年到八年這個部分剛剛談過了嘛那第二個部分就是說是不是要把他抵檢的金額15%現行的其實我們還要跟財政部討論"},{"start":6137.365,"end":6151.842,"text":"因为这个会牵涉到国家的税收的机制另外他可能还有在另外一个部分对个人的部分也有比方说像盈利事业他如果投资到新创的话他的股利是免税的"},{"start":6152.322,"end":6161.849,"text":"所以這個要整體國家稅制要考量所以這個可能要免稅現在是現行因為它的誘因不足所以我們才要提出相關所以我請各部會在回答的時候你現在現行誘因就不足你要講現行的這個方案那根本對整個事情無視於補嘛而且你在去年4月份的時候才通過嘛加注現行的這些嘛所以我請行政部門我們大家好好的真心的用"},{"start":6181.343,"end":6184.627,"text":"我們實際的這個動作來協助我們的產業才能夠讓我們立法院通過的這些法案能夠落實到位啊如果回答就是只有回答目前的狀況那根本不用修法啦除非你的條件是可以符合我們民眾的需求嘛"},{"start":6198.763,"end":6205.956,"text":"就是因為沒有辦法符合我們才要討論啊所以再請教投資體檢部分由30%提高到50%個人的部分由500萬體檢的部分升格為這個提升為1000萬 您的看法"},{"start":6213.154,"end":6229.703,"text":"這個可能要先請教一下財政部主席今天你請相關單位來對不對每一個人你沒有自己的看法主席者單位都沒有自己的看法你要請教別人"},{"start":6230.103,"end":6252.05,"text":"那這個邏輯太奇怪我們今天首次提出這樣的一個這個法案出來大家就是要共同討論啊你應該要有你的立場啊而不是我聽誰的啊不是 因為這個會牽涉到部會協調當然經濟部是支持這樣的一個提案給新創更多的優惠當然都是我的希望對 你這樣講就對了嘛這樣子我們才有辦法繼續討論嘛整體國家的這個"},{"start":6256.911,"end":6272.097,"text":"對 我們的目的我相信大家都是一致的目標也就是讓新創通過之後能夠真正的來落實尤其是節能減碳的這個部分這是全球的一個方向嘛 對不對所以你的方向是同意的嘛國發會剛剛連線也同意嘛 好"},{"start":6275.518,"end":6302.391,"text":"那我们希望到时候我们在讨论的时候能够朝这个方向支持本席的这个提案真正协助我们新创的产业那接下来本席要请教国发会国发会我们现在呢你114年度你的督导公建的部分是8137亿那我们也提出了说这会115年会是未来18年来公建最多的会最多的"},{"start":6302.771,"end":6322.912,"text":"今年都會最多但是我們看到也就是說在整體的一個規劃裡頭基礎生活的這個條件尤其這個戰爭的因素有沒有納進去因為光光塑膠物料原料原則上現在就已經很多的廠商不敢報價"},{"start":6324.013,"end":6343.414,"text":"也不知道未來要怎麼樣所以在這個情況之下在各個因子一直浮現的時候那你們要怎麼樣去將民生物價因為產業攻擊的攻擊鏈跟外部風險不可抗的一個因素不斷的在提升那你要怎麼應對因為"},{"start":6345.436,"end":6368.551,"text":"在行政院裡頭的物價這個小組裡頭 穩定小組你是最重要的幕僚跟協調機構來請他回答一下 謝謝這部分的話就是政府院長現在都每一個禮拜他都會開那個臨時物價那一個匯報那也會針對幾個很重要的民生 17項民生物品會進行監控 對"},{"start":6371.053,"end":6390.999,"text":"所以這個部分一定要好好的監控因為就像昨天農委會我就要求不一定要不可以去因為這是最基層他也答應那所以本席已經跟你提出塑膠物料是源頭那已經開始了而且是石化的下游這個非常重要一定要嚴格的去監控穩定物價謝謝 謝謝委員消費諮詢委員請洪義祥委員"},{"start":6411.892,"end":6412.716,"text":"我請國發會業主委請國發會業主委委員好"},{"start":6417.881,"end":6443.229,"text":"好我在之前的提案說明已經說過我們本黨團的這個提案的一個修正參考但我想先跟你小小的抱怨因為我看一下這個開會通知的話列席單位準備相關書面200份資料會議前一日送達本會並將資料競送本會委員研究室所以我是昨天晚上11點59分收到"},{"start":6445.45,"end":6467.284,"text":"你害我昨天看到兩點然後再寫comment然後今天早上我要五六點起來這個這樣不好尤其我們是聯席然後都是我們經濟委員會的很多不管我們的召集員對不對提的這些的案子我覺得你們這個速度而且之前又有先行溝通蔡"},{"start":6468.427,"end":6496.06,"text":"那我花了時間把你們的書面報告看完其實我都是很務實的討論但是我看完之後發現四個字本席深感遺憾就是好像我們提出來的東西你們都有很多不想做而不願意改的心態所以我稍微把這件事情為什麼會這樣子來做跟你說明一下"},{"start":6497.416,"end":6525.855,"text":"那我覺得我有資格來講這個這個國發基金的一個創意條約原因是我有擔任過對不對你們天使基金的投資的技術類的審查委員那我看完這樣子的一個過去這個監察院的報告跟這些其實我發現我們審小案子一億兩億以下的搞不好還比你們審這個二三十億的還要嚴謹我還要寫同意不同意的這一個書面意見而且還要具名的"},{"start":6526.696,"end":6555.976,"text":"好那沒關係我的意思是說這個是我們人民的納稅錢因為2.1兆真的是很大也超過一般我們很多大書書部會的年度的總預算所以我覺得這個地方如果根據你們的回答就是說這個東西我們已經像你們第4頁他說按照中央標準法第7條規定我就不念了這個收支管理運用辦法立即送立法院以達委員監督之效"},{"start":6556.896,"end":6582.988,"text":"所以這個感覺好像說萬一像盧新東被聯合再生那因為我有送到立法院委員監督了那好像就是在這樣的地段發生是立法院的責任就這個部分跟委員分享一下就是說我們國發基金雖然資產有大概兩三兆左右但是我們其實並沒有進行所謂的很常進出股是因為我們"},{"start":6583.488,"end":6610.884,"text":"基本上還是站在整個國家的產業發展上面來持有這個所以就譬如說像台積電的話我們也基本上不會激進因為我的原則很簡單我跟你理性高峰談就是說因為它是2.1兆非常巨額所以我是覺得說如果你只是用一個單純的作業辦法然後有這些東西算到多少錢我覺得不夠把它提到位階這是我們的一個立場這樣子讓你理解一下"},{"start":6611.806,"end":6639.751,"text":"然後再來的話呢接下來都不是我講的都是監察院的報告那他列出的這些的缺失其實作為我們這一次本黨團修法的一些的依據比如說我們看一下這幾個包含盧鑫案、保德人員、聯合再生、東北等等那監察院說的比如說你在這個盧鑫案裡頭未依決意詳易調查憑藉被收購之9D集團人準與願收付款"},{"start":6640.211,"end":6649.641,"text":"又忽視外聘專家學者警示意見令該基金委託資產聯合會計事務所以禁止的調查揭露東北公司財務問題"},{"start":6651.4,"end":6677.69,"text":"那略有重點管理項目應採取適當因應措施但是你也沒有發現他該公司的私募基金用於償還銀行的借款等等那監察院裡頭還有一個很重要的重點就是我們的這些的政策評估投資評估審議等等的會議沒有留存錄音發言記錄且會公開透明方式進行所以將來出事的時候難以釐清這樣子的權責"},{"start":6679.071,"end":6706.779,"text":"那除了管理會有錄音之外其他都沒有所以我想這個是他寫的第三個經財院也非常強烈的說在我們這一個所謂的原產業創新轉型基金評審會委員組成的運作機制進行回歸一般直接投資的申請適用之投資評估審議委員會所以它導致原本我們比較重大的這些的政策的一個案件的時候它要三分之二的"},{"start":6707.139,"end":6723.831,"text":"出席委員同意可是因為他用這樣的方式的話他把它變成降為半數 二分之一所以我們在修法裡頭我們是希望說如果等著SOP的法制等著程序的一個公開透明我們希望能夠把這樣子的東西列進來"},{"start":6725.032,"end":6749.865,"text":"那我想最後我想要再跟各位再跟你們溝通一下的就是說我認為我們在這個討論還有一條很重要的像我們在盧興濫跟聯合再生的話其實它有很多的東西我們很害怕國發資金是有資底的這樣子的一個風險所以像盧興的話你把國發資金投入了公帑去變相補貼它海外的競爭者"},{"start":6750.925,"end":6768.264,"text":"那聯合再生在關鍵能源設施當中使用中置太陽能板的零組件所以這個是違背 對不對我們的這個政府的區中化 國產化所以我認為說在這個法條上面我們也希望把這個缺口補起來這也讓主委能夠理解"},{"start":6769.241,"end":6787.196,"text":"那當然這個所謂的你們在這個回答裡面有關於說這個第六頁法律重複規範這裡主要是因為蘇萊首案這樣子的一個關係那因為這個權事部有函述說投資約會關係委託經營關係這些已經列入規範"},{"start":6790.359,"end":6813.126,"text":"所以我也同意啦我們就把他列到這個公務員的限制規定的處罰有一個一致性的一個標準那如果你認為我們那一個投資化不符合比例原則你就拿出你們的修正的版本出來好那這個以上大概我希望能夠大家有個良心的溝通謝謝好謝謝洪義祥委員主委先回座"},{"start":6814.028,"end":6814.848,"text":"謝謝主席 請經濟部何次長"},{"start":6843.659,"end":6853.626,"text":"國營好來市長這個我們國營事業油電糖水這個財報在去年底都出來了那台電去年是有賺錢是不是有賺多少大概賺幾百億吧"},{"start":6860.659,"end":6869.627,"text":"賺幾百億喔?有沒有一個數字?739賺了739,那那個中油咧?虧了多少錢?中油虧了多少錢?虧90億那它這個累計虧損,這七年還是八年來,累計虧損是超過800億是不是?對那這個累計虧損差不多是中油的問題還是環境的問題?還是配合政府補貼的問題?"},{"start":6886.943,"end":6896.003,"text":"當然都有啦大環境有的好有的不好啊那你要幫中友講一下話到底是哪裡不好啊"},{"start":6897.216,"end":6913.361,"text":"因為國際油價的關係啦尤其最近最近是這個等一下才會討論到你之前已經累積這個去年是虧損了91億嘛他們說他們去年虧損主要是受到這一個偵測器補貼啦達到173億啦天然氣價格動漲或是緩漲啦這是他們的理由啦我不知道這個次長清不清楚"},{"start":6921.943,"end":6942.973,"text":"這兩個禮拜來 那因為我們這個有補貼 就是要那個油電就是要 電沒有啦 就是油價的話是要先動漲嘛那所以呢 這個兩週就虧損33億了 是不是對那接下來呢 這才兩週耶 那接下來如果再次再延長咧再次延長如果是一個月兩個月的話 那中油的虧損大概會多少咧"},{"start":6944.226,"end":6961.17,"text":"當然現在就是會跟著國際油價的原來油價今天又漲了啊對 所以它如果說還是有這個需要配合政策的話 我想這個中油它的虧損還是會繼續增加那你們應該有個預算嘛 不是說這個對 所以我們現在就是中油它也提出說要增資3500億嘛那也報到院裡面那院裡面現在也正在審議當中就是我們希望從中油的財務結構"},{"start":6971.092,"end":6994.22,"text":"好那兩個部分啦一個就是說有沒有算就是我要問就是說兩個禮拜虧了33億人那如果暫時延長一個月到兩個月的話中一個會虧損多少有沒有這個數字因為國際油價是變動的他會跟著這個當然也不是每天變動你要抓一個Range出來啊其實像今天油價又往上了所以他的一個就是那個1000億會不會1000億可能"},{"start":6998.531,"end":7027.427,"text":"應該不會啦 如果這個戰事我想也應該不會一千億是我喊的啦 你們應該有一個估計的一個數字啦我是說兩週33億啊是 這個可能我們會需要在估算幾種情境之下對啊 你們要去估算那個情境啊兩週33億 然後一個月的多少 50億還是100億我們再估算一下再看因為你們有提出這一個3500億的這個政治計畫嘛 對不對那是送到 要不要送到立法院來"},{"start":7028.783,"end":7049.29,"text":"要那慘了啊台電那個在野黨也不讓你們過啊雷千億就把你們刪掉了對不對那終於有這個3500億送到立法院來不過這個是因為要穩定物價我想委員台電也是穩定物價啊在野黨有沒有同意我們都支持啊在野黨有沒有同意沒有嘛3500億你覺得在野黨會讓你過嗎"},{"start":7051.392,"end":7079.905,"text":"我們還是請委員多支持啊對啊你要請在野黨委員多支持我們當然都支持啊那你有沒有看到一個新聞昨天有國台辦講他說啊統一後兩岸互聯互通滿格電力人家每一戰爭的時候都要吃台灣豆腐你有沒有注意到這一則新聞有是對那你作為一個經濟部的次長怎麼去反映這件事情回應這件事情"},{"start":7080.427,"end":7107.538,"text":"當然這個是不可能的這個是屬於認知作戰的一部分我覺得我們台灣自己能源能源的部分我們已經也做足了準備我們有安全存量而且我們也有一些因應的做法尤其這段期間我們中油的這個對一些天然氣或能源的這個調度其實都可以維持到比方說現在是4月底以前那5月的部分我們現在"},{"start":7108.078,"end":7124.749,"text":"也正在積極在調裝當中所以這個部分我想我們這個能源的部分我們一定會幫大家確保能源的供應是無虞的市長你講的認知作戰連這個東西都要認知作戰那請教一下那在每一戰爭持續期間的話那油價持續會動漲嗎"},{"start":7129.688,"end":7150.342,"text":"你說動漲嗎?當然我們有一個機制我們有雅齡最低價還有專案平穩的機制我知道所以在這兩個機制之下我想我們一定會把油價控制好不會讓我們CPI超過2%我們的目標就是對啦,我意思是說那是不是有機會再維持動漲"},{"start":7156.415,"end":7175.927,"text":"當然這個就會看到整個國際情勢的一個所以我是說每一日戰爭如果持續啦對 我們還是希望說可是接下來因為參席會都延期了嘛那至少這一個月大概我認為戰爭可能還會再持續啦所以這個月或是說不要講到下個月下個禮拜是不是就"},{"start":7177.032,"end":7202.197,"text":"還是有機會跟委員報告就因為我剛講到講到就是說這個油價的決定我們有兩個機制嘛一個是亞林最低價好那電價勒那電價的話電價是下個月會開會嗎3月有一個審議委員會那我想審議委員會討論的時候我們會把相關的資訊都會提供給審議委員來做參考當然大家也是希望電價也要能夠穩定啦就不要"},{"start":7202.757,"end":7222.904,"text":"不要漲但是這個資訊當然我們也會傳達因為是戰爭的關係我們還是希望能夠維持油電都能夠維持動漲這樣才不會影響到我們的民生經濟影響到我們一般這些小老百姓不管你是做什麼行業可能因此都會受到影響好不好把我們這個訊息傳遞出去好 謝謝市長 謝謝主席"},{"start":7228.116,"end":7254.167,"text":"謝謝林坤財委員市長先回座郭國仁郭國仁郭國仁不在偵探鄭天才委員執行完之後我們休息六分鐘下一位執行請鄭天才委員好主席有請市長經濟部的市長"},{"start":7263.268,"end":7283.395,"text":"好 社長剛才我們有委員跟我們都一樣都很關注這個從過去的俄烏戰爭到現在的美伊伊朗的戰爭確實會影響到我們的"},{"start":7289.057,"end":7300.668,"text":"石油天然氣各方面因為我們都是仰賴進口所以這個到剛發生的時候美以一戰爭剛發生的時候部長經濟部部長"},{"start":7308.956,"end":7330.468,"text":"這個的發言認為還可以當時的狀況是這樣當然現在會拖延多久不知道所以這個部分這個要避免戰爭這個是最重要的當然避免戰爭這個自我防禦當然也很重要"},{"start":7331.445,"end":7357.927,"text":"那今天談的產業創新條例很多委員有提出版本這個行政院是沒有版本怎麼樣能夠讓我們的產業創新能夠讓我們台灣的產業更好這個是一個我們基本上應該的好 剛提到這個戰爭"},{"start":7361.206,"end":7370.969,"text":"我們看這個跟我們經濟部也有關係的產業發展數我們如果看115年度的預算這個亞洲無人機新創計畫這個113到116年度總經費49億多這個115年度11億多"},{"start":7389.871,"end":7406.838,"text":"這裡面除了會議之外還有協助國內廠商開發無人機關鍵模組或相關的這些產品這裡面也有提到無人機多元應用關鍵技術開發計畫115到119這個經費都相當龐大這個包括亞創中心強化計畫"},{"start":7419.119,"end":7440.513,"text":"國防產業創新發展推動計畫這個經費總共加起來都是像以這個來講就百萬千萬億12億多了所以這個部分總共加起來金額都不小然後你們整個都列為軍工產業"},{"start":7443.769,"end":7470.755,"text":"在這樣的情形之下事實上如果我們從俄羅斯戰爭或者是這個美以伊的戰爭無人機一直是一個很重要的無人機所以我們台灣這個AI各方面半導體各方面所以我們的這個"},{"start":7474.761,"end":7500.93,"text":"相關的這些開發或是製造應該要怎麼樣能夠自主很重要如果我們看最近的報導我們好多我們連無人機的買了幾年還沒進來都有啊對不對所以這個部分這個有沒有"},{"start":7502.29,"end":7527.392,"text":"已經有很好的效果能不能說明一下跟委員報告那確實我們現在國內發展無人機這個產業那政府在嘉義以及我們的台南其實都有這個無人機的相關的研發跟這個生產的基地的這個規劃那目前來講國內當然就是像我們雷虎中強光電"},{"start":7529.013,"end":7547.12,"text":"那经纬航太等等这些业者他们其实都已经有具备整机开发的这个能力了那我们当然就是希望把这个无人机产业能够落地在台湾那现在这个以外销来讲波兰是我们第一大的市场捷克是我们第二大的市场"},{"start":7547.62,"end":7558.726,"text":"那未來我們在這個行政院也有一個同手型的一個計畫所以未來我們希望能夠在這個114年到117年能夠投入442億的經費能夠來協助國內無人機產業的一個發展現在的成果對這個房"},{"start":7579.1,"end":7605.207,"text":"对军方军用的部分到底的承受我想军用是中科院这边他们有在发展国内的所谓军用的无人机不在我们的统筹型计划里面因为你这边是军工产业我们要是军民通用你要办军方第一个我认为国内的业者能够开发能够去制造"},{"start":7606.474,"end":7624.648,"text":"當然是要去鼓勵免得我們每一次要去跟美國買現在買很難買都用光了對不對免以一戰爭都用光了對不對所以我們要自己"},{"start":7627.244,"end":7643.214,"text":"這個我們的產業我們的各方面要自主好不好這絕對是我們的方向是要加油好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝鄭建才委員這個市長先回座先來休息六分鐘"},{"start":8008.004,"end":8035.678,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 歷史官員請就座會計院長請保持宿敬好 我們繼續開會 消費資源請李燕秀委員感謝張偉 張偉我可不可以邀請經濟部財政部跟國發會的歷史官員 請經濟部副市長國會主委 負稅署副署長"},{"start":8039.807,"end":8041.948,"text":"我們今天在討論產創條例對於這個產創條例當時我們新創條例我們當時增資的目標當時是設定1500億元到最後我們現在看到只有27億所以連2%都不到"},{"start":8057.617,"end":8062.679,"text":"在我看來我覺得我們整個經濟部對於這樣的一個政策到底出現了什麼狀況我覺得在政策上應該去做一個檢討跟討論特別是這274家核定的新高風險的青壯事業到目前為止它的營運狀況營收的成長我覺得我們都要進一步的去做了解這個政策推動之後到底我們還要再去做怎麼樣的修正"},{"start":8084.505,"end":8094.67,"text":"我覺得才有意義那因為今天時間非常短我要就其他的問題來去做討論因為上次修法是在半年前5月7號才公佈不到半年的時間到底接下來要怎麼修我覺得法案要討論要調整當然不是不可以討論但是如果要再修我個人認為就要在很多層面上把它想得更細更完整到底台灣"},{"start":8109.096,"end":8116.741,"text":"我們整體政府在新創產業上我們到底應該涵蓋哪些我們就勢必要想得更仔細更完整才符合產業界的期待我們常常在說我們不能只有一個護國神山我們要創造更多的新的護國群山這個就在這個條例當中我們希望想得更完整喔那我就看到就是說在產創條例十條之一的投資的底檢的部分我們現在"},{"start":8139.717,"end":8166.317,"text":"適用的對象是公司或者是合夥的合夥事業的夥伴對不對有限合夥對的合夥部分那我就必須想強調就是說過去無論是智慧醫療或者是賴總統強調智慧醫療國家是國家重點發展的產業或者是蔡英文總統過去講的精準健康的戰略目標"},{"start":8167.858,"end":8193.42,"text":"這個對我們台灣來說生技業這也都是嘛 對不對您能夠認同好 那剛才我提到就是說我們目前產創條例使用的對象其實就是公司跟合夥的夥伴是的它並不包括包括醫療 社團法人等等對不對 醫療社團法沒有在裡面目前是這樣 對醫療 生技醫療有一些公司會研究但是在應用的部分"},{"start":8194.724,"end":8206.36,"text":"很多中小型的醫療院所他可能買一台儀器他就要花不少錢他卻沒有包含在裡面研發花了一些錢"},{"start":8207.847,"end":8216.913,"text":"但是如果沒有人要用我們在研究端我們有一些支持但在後面實際應用上我們卻沒有政府的角色在裡面這個就是我看到我們產創條例在適用的部分我覺得"},{"start":8225.259,"end":8254.371,"text":"可以是在討論的地方因為很多私立醫院他適用的就是醫療社團法人他並非是公司不是公司法裡面適用的公司所以我覺得他就沒有包含在裡面但是醫療社團法人他每天服務上千萬的國民他的投資設備的費用其實是相對非常高的我們常常在講說我們是AI政府有沒有AI政府行動立國然後包括在AI輔助的診斷醫療的部分包括我們現在都非常熟悉的達文西的手術系統"},{"start":8255.231,"end":8278.509,"text":"包括我們現在在推動的智慧醫療病房的管理等等我們現在可能看到在台灣我們可能都是我不要講初步啦就是說剛剛還在推動的過程當中我們今天看到全世界講到他在排名AI的國家第一名是美國第二名是中國大陸第三名是新加坡我們都還排在應用的部分排在第16名"},{"start":8279.95,"end":8293.322,"text":"所以我覺得在這一塊我們政府可以有更多的角色去處理所以我時間不多所以我就直接講我的訴求就是說承認條例要鼓勵百工百業導入AI跟節能減碳的部分包括AI的投資抵減那社團法人連資格他都沒有"},{"start":8298.769,"end":8323.862,"text":"我們其實可以抵稅減稅其實憑良心講也沒多少但是那就是一個政府鼓勵的角色在裡頭所以我覺得這個部分我們不能只關注供給端的減稅那個需求端的拉力政府的角色更重要所以在這一塊我非常期待經濟部跟財政部可以有具體的回應包括在醫療社團法人沒有辦法適用創投條例的投資的稅務相關的抵減"},{"start":8327.344,"end":8343.527,"text":"所以在這一塊我們有沒有機會也研議一些方案或法案跟衛福部來去做溝通啟動研議的機制設立醫療社團法人的特別法的設立把這個產業條例把它包含在裡面有沒有機會來去做討論"},{"start":8344.708,"end":8367.403,"text":"是這個部分我們會跟衛福部跟財政部大家一起來討論一下看有沒有這個機會把他納進來我覺得我期待的齁我不要這樣別人我期待的是看到我們政府的決心而不是啊這個反正我就管公司法我就把公司這些放進去但是如果政府看到就是說我們未來下一個包括我們的軟體智慧軟體生氣醫療是我們重點產業的話"},{"start":8370.865,"end":8400.203,"text":"那我們就應該把社團法人也把他放在裡面我個人認為抵檢的數目其實真的不多比起他買一台那種新的什麼達文西手術那個都新一代的什麼其實都真的是非常小但是我們他們這些人他們這些產業界或醫療端或社團法人可以看到政府的鼓勵角色在裡頭可以嗎好的謝謝您謝謝張偉謝謝李院長委員請回座下一位質詢請戴世保委員"},{"start":8408.977,"end":8412.98,"text":"謝謝主席有請經濟部的何次長其他長官如果有適合的要上來都可以來請教就幾個問題第一個現在中東的帳戶都未洗以現在加拿大產業都很辛苦了"},{"start":8432.697,"end":8458.845,"text":"那現在來講的話我們現在中油是怎麼樣所以說這個只要一漲價我們全部吸收是不是這個政策已經定了吸收到什麼程度跟委員報告我們現在有一個機制就是亞林最低價再加上專案平穩的機制這樣算出來的這個價格之後如果有調漲的話政府至少吸收六成"},{"start":8459.945,"end":8470.492,"text":"這樣的一個機制在你這個就聽不清楚了你告訴我幾塊錢以上政府吸收多少幾塊錢以上吸收多少對 所以因為這個價格價格是浮動的它那個中油它它有一個禮拜的這樣的一個就國際油價的一個機制就是那個公司有包括那個像北海布蘭特原油啦"},{"start":8488.522,"end":8495.665,"text":"還有一些像杜拜等等這些它是綜合起來去核算那個油價所以現在還是變動當中的是"},{"start":8506.289,"end":8509.393,"text":"現在很難去估算說這個禮拜大概是會漲或漲到多少錢上個禮拜是沒有漲但是終有吸收大概9塊10塊的這樣的一個金額"},{"start":8526.38,"end":8554.339,"text":"一公升前幾天我們在別國委員會已經有聽到你們講了 向完長官講了所以中午現在吸收了33億對 兩個禮拜兩個禮拜吸收33億如果按照這個tempo來等於一個禮拜吸收16億左右是不是這個樣子第二個禮拜吸收比較多啦第一個禮拜因為那個油價還沒有大浮漲好 第二個禮拜吸收多少好像是不是20幾"},{"start":8557.952,"end":8577.963,"text":"20億啦20億啦所以平均如果現在油價一直在高檔賞味數所以我們大概一個禮拜就要20億所以如果打現在說要打什麼4個禮拜那是不值可能打到9月現在3月打到9月還有半年的時間乘以4大概20幾個禮拜20個禮拜好了那就是400億了"},{"start":8583.204,"end":8587.592,"text":"差不多這個譜喔 是不是這樣子算我這樣講 我這個邏輯對不對 金文麗對不對當然就是國際有家我這樣講對不對啦 金文麗"},{"start":8592.601,"end":8616.411,"text":"當然這是概估啦這是一個情境啦你們這樣講不離譜的概估啦我這樣講對吧所以如果再打半年就中友就要再吸收400億啊中友現在是多少錢啊所以我們現在那個中友提了一個增資計畫3500億送到行政院那行政院如果有核定的話我們還送到立法院所以還是全民買單嘛"},{"start":8618.352,"end":8640.249,"text":"現在來看的話 我們就看一個東西啦就像 除了這個之外 請問關稅的部分是不是現在都停擺了ART都沒有了 對吧現在我們在等那個美國的通知美國的啊 等於都沒有嘛通的等於沒有嘛但是 但是汽車的進口 零關稅這是不是確定了"},{"start":8641.571,"end":8658.045,"text":"這目前也都還在ART的生效ART裡面就是零關稅啊ART裡面零關稅 對吧是是是 我們現在要送到還是要送到大院這邊來我知道啦 但是就ART裡面就是零關稅嘛那就很多的業者就提到了"},{"start":8658.746,"end":8678.18,"text":"你們在不同場合要講的關鍵零組件比如說引擎啦 別墅箱啦是否也可以降為零關稅當然這個引擎不一定只有從美國來喔因為從日本來的引擎我們要零關稅從北京來的別墅箱也要零關稅這一點你們要不要提出來"},{"start":8679.325,"end":8704.845,"text":"當然我們也要跟財政部我們有給財政部這邊有一個公文我們也請他是不是可以檢討這個部分你們是不是就這樣定經濟部的立場就希望關鍵零組件這個引擎變速箱等等希望關稅降回零你有沒有對財政部提出這樣的訴求 有沒有"},{"start":8705.97,"end":8712.913,"text":"我們有發文 因為這個是公會這邊提出來的建議經過你們的評論是結束了對不對總共幾項 關鍵你裡面幾項幾項 幾項是不是委員我們會後再給你拿好 會後再給我可以但是我要提醒你一點別忘了"},{"start":8730.103,"end":8749.899,"text":"不要忘了這個汽車 台灣的汽車廠跟台灣的零組件業總共幾十萬人喔是三十萬人吧 對不對如果把上下游啦 這全部都加起來啦從業大概八萬 八萬九萬左右上下游加起來三十萬嗎 對三十萬人都生計啊"},{"start":8750.953,"end":8764.782,"text":"對不對 如果零關稅這些幾乎都垮了吧主啊請問你啊 我請問如果零關稅沒有任何因應的措施這些廠是不是幾乎都要關門對不對我這樣講對不對是 其實"},{"start":8769.025,"end":8784.986,"text":"我們這個是針對美國汽車進口的部分那當然有它的衝擊在那我現在也有一個因應的做法我們這個在特別預算也提出了我問你會不會關門啦三十幾萬人會不會沒有投入啦問你這個啦是"},{"start":8786.688,"end":8806.931,"text":"我們影響程度大概是會影響這個產值大概是1.941.94%然後那個我們也在特別預算裡面10月人口多少比較關心10月人口多少人口的部分10月人數多少就"},{"start":8808.416,"end":8828.067,"text":"目前來講這個就業人口是7.3萬但是失業人口的部分是不是會有我再提供給委員這個資料因為這個我們是有一個公示我現在手頭我希望這個資料但是我就確定你剛才所講的你已經把關鍵民主界希望關稅降為0這個數據我告訴財政部"},{"start":8831.829,"end":8845.894,"text":"每個禮拜大概補貼中油的吸收大概20億左右每個禮拜20億就這樣子好謝謝謝謝萊斯堡委員次長先回座下位質詢請李玉玲委員"},{"start":8858.114,"end":8861.442,"text":"謝謝主席請何次長經濟部何次長"},{"start":8869.278,"end":8891.975,"text":"委員好 何次長今天我們經濟委員會特別排審產創條例那這在去年雖然在去年4月的時候在立法院已經經過了審查也做了一些調整那當時最主要的就是要延長投資跟減稅的這個優惠時程那當時我們說AI的人工智慧跟這個"},{"start":8893.836,"end":8910.857,"text":"節能減碳要納入這個設備投資的抵減的這個範圍裡面但是我們看到很多AI的應用來說很多產業他不知道要怎麼樣做出轉型而且說如果不去關心的話也可能會被淘汰或者是被邊緣化所以我們現在"},{"start":8911.758,"end":8933.775,"text":"看到我們台灣目前在AI的整個趨勢裡面產業都是非常的關注那要如何去運用找不到一個切入的方向那在經濟部這邊是不是可以依據我們各產業的需求提出因地制宜的AI導入的模式來協助各產業做一個評估的效益"},{"start":8934.295,"end":8948.476,"text":"是有的我們經濟部有成立一個產業輔導團那我們會針對各個產業他在AI上的這個應用的部分我們會來有專家學者來提供有在評估嗎有有在做協助哪一個方面會比較更加急迫需要AI的導入"},{"start":8949.617,"end":8966.315,"text":"當然就是我們現在這個針對製造業的部分我們大概大概有六七十條的那個市產線可以讓這些這個產業在這邊本席就跟你提供一下如果我們以工具機的產業為例啦那AI的導入是可以幫助他們提升了這個加工的"},{"start":8972.22,"end":8977.842,"text":"精度跟自動化的檢測製程的優化所以他們也非常需要用AI的導入但是他們在整個產品的價值跟著供應鏈的競爭力下是有需要的而現在因為台美他的ART裡面有談到關稅的問題會調降到15%不疊加但是美國最高法院的裁定這個關稅對等關稅是違法的所以又改用122條款是用10%"},{"start":9001.148,"end":9013.632,"text":"而且是疊加的在當前的我們台灣工具機出口到美國的這個整個稅率這樣子看起來的話是沒有辦法跟日韓來做競爭因為日韓都在14%以下10%跟12%所以在這樣子的情況之下我們要如何來協助那個我們所需要像工具機這個產業的話他們需要導入這AI用什麼硬硬的"},{"start":9026.075,"end":9047.366,"text":"城市去做轉型或者是我們政府這邊有沒有及時的協助的辦法措施這個部分我們有跟工具機這個產業工具機這個產業其實現在也跨到比如說像這個半導體像這個航太其實也用了很多的工具機的部分所以工具機不僅是"},{"start":9048.966,"end":9061.669,"text":"現在看現在價格競爭 因為它每年的出口值已經一直下降了嘛 對 但是現在這幾個月其實工具機的這個產值有在回升啦 回升當中 因為原來原來我們是20%疊加嘛 那它現在是降到10%疊加 其實我們跟"},{"start":9069.411,"end":9074.752,"text":"臨近的競爭國日韓他們都10% 12%我們現在大概14%原來的部分我們原來20%疊加現在10%疊加我們的那個距離已經拉近了拉近當然他們日韓比我們低當然但是我們現在就產業的這個出口以長久來看的話經濟部你還是要去評估一下怎麼樣協助他們再跟日韓有個競爭力"},{"start":9093.996,"end":9094.116,"text":"不會被削減掉"},{"start":9124.356,"end":9148.342,"text":"我們大概37%的是天然氣的進口 66%的話是原油進口都來自於中東 在這種情形之下我們看到這首當其衝的應該就是中油啦中油目前的話它的虧損已經到804億了那現在本來想說今年會由虧轉盈的大概會轉小賺個80億但是剛剛有提到我們這個前這個"},{"start":9150.802,"end":9167.789,"text":"昨天我們經濟部的賴次長就講了光兩週就虧損了33億那我們看到這個虧損的情形之下我想問一下整個中原面臨的這個財政的危機那現在他今年又向我們經濟部提出了四年3500億的增資計畫那來比照台電對他們來幫忙那請問經濟部你們立場的態度是如何"},{"start":9174.732,"end":9202.8,"text":"當然我們現在已經把這個公文已經呈報給這個行政院就這個政治計畫我們會同意嗎當然我們現在是同意的我們才會轉到行政院院裡面其實現在也正在審查當中如果院裡面也支持這樣的做法的話也會送到大院這邊來做審查其實中油做一個國營事業它是扮演一個就穩定物價的這樣的一個功能所以我們中油它提出這樣的一個政治計畫也是做"},{"start":9203.28,"end":9226.337,"text":"做最後的打算 那當然也希望委員這邊能夠來支持好 給他一個協助但是我們這個採購所有的這個不管是天然氣或只是原油我們希望不要單一窗口能夠是多元化的去布局才不會有局限在一個地方那尤其我們看到大部分都是在中東地區那是不是我們有可以多元的選擇"},{"start":9227.438,"end":9248.776,"text":"那像我們在ART裡面就有提到要對美採購在2025年到2029年要增加444億的美元天然氣跟原油我們原來這個占比天然氣是11%這個原油是21%那未來我們增加444億的時候未來的占比%數是多少到達哪裡"},{"start":9249.717,"end":9272.308,"text":"你們有評估嗎跟我們報告其實我們現在就是分山流遠那中東的部分我們就盡量盡量轉移到美國澳洲這些國家這是我們的方向增加部分增加多少增加的部分可能我們要再細緻再算一下大概增加到20%本來美國大概是在10%左右天然氣增加多少"},{"start":9273.749,"end":9282.172,"text":"因為可能要等到阿拉斯加那邊 那個 好 那你估算出來給本席一個報告 好 謝謝謝謝林議員請邱志偉召委詢答謝謝主席 有請經濟部何市長 請何市長"},{"start":9301.526,"end":9327.593,"text":"國會主委然後負稅署尼副署長先請教天然氣的問題那個次長這個天然氣主要來源國是澳洲大概38%對那卡達大概25到27美國到10到11那這個最新的消息卡達全球最大的天然氣的樞紐受到攻擊嚴重損害所以我們卡達由氣源就會受到影響"},{"start":9328.686,"end":9350.451,"text":"日本也很大的比例從澳洲他們也啟動請澳洲提高供氣量澳洲是我們最大的供氣國到38%我們有沒有啟動相關的機制我們也有啟動這樣的機制請澳洲政府提高這個供氣量有沒有具體作為有的 我們就是美國跟澳洲的部分怎麼樣具體作為"},{"start":9351.931,"end":9369.776,"text":"當然就是跟我們具體的量具體的量這個誰來答覆是我請我們能源署好巴偉那目前在天然氣的一些車的部分在3到4月都不會有問題那5月份應該也我在問你說有沒有啟動要求拜託澳洲提高供氣量嗎"},{"start":9370.396,"end":9397.241,"text":"跟委員報告目前針對長約的部分像澳洲像其他的東南亞國家都有啟動來提前取貨的策略來做處理所以剛委員詢問了對於非中東國家的相關的天然氣我就問兩個國家澳洲跟美國有沒有啟動這個機制我們都有啟動這個機制提早取貨量有沒有增加有在做你那個詳細的資料在提供給我日本也這個所示在3月16號釋出石油儲量"},{"start":9399.437,"end":9414.689,"text":"日本是政府儲油加上民間儲有254天我國的石油儲量目前的狀況怎麼樣我們現在儲量大概有150幾天全部是政府儲嗎政府跟民間154天155天左右日本可以到254天我建議適度把石油儲量天數能夠增加是"},{"start":9429.276,"end":9456.344,"text":"我們會再增加那個有遠的這個成功量你要把目標算出來就是說以日本水準是255天我們才144天是不是可以增加180天你要怎麼達成這個目標請經濟部提出具體的做法好那請葉主委跟那個尼副署長這個去年傳送條例也是我當時在我的時候是修法所以為什麼一年不到還有那麼多的版本"},{"start":9457.503,"end":9481.367,"text":"要提出來針對新創企業詬病的新創底檢等等包括怎麼樣放寬新創認定包括提高個人投資底檢的限額這個在上一次修法的時候本席都已經有提案所以說上一次修法跟這次修法不一樣是上一次有願版那我們尊重行政院的版本所以大部分通過的條文內容都是以行政院版本"},{"start":9482.867,"end":9498.747,"text":"所以今天跨黨派委員共同提出我想這四項的這個重點修法重點包括第10條包括第23條之一23條之二以及有可能剛剛宗家病院所提到的包括把醫療社團法人納入廠商23條之三的部分"},{"start":9499.673,"end":9515.78,"text":"我想這個就是符合產業的期待所以我希望說這次能夠把這些新的元素把它再次的修法一步到位那我看了國安會的報告看過經濟部的報告基本上都是支持本席的提案"},{"start":9517.041,"end":9536.355,"text":"對沒有錯嘛就國發會對於鼓勵新創事業原則持正面開放的態度那經濟部的立場呢其中對於高風險的那一個你們報告我看過了嘛你們都基本上雖然有點模糊有點抽象但是支持同意這方向沒有錯嘛那經濟部呢是我們其實也都"},{"start":9536.835,"end":9554.062,"text":"只要對新創好的我們都支持但是就是我剛剛提到還是要整體國家的這個稅制還有稅收影響的考量這個你不用提這個字副稅署來提徐副署長你們報告怎麼寫你也支持啊那最後你怎麼寫"},{"start":9555.796,"end":9571.951,"text":"你的報告是跟委員報告因為去年大幅修正然後其實放寬了一些要件要看這個政策修法之後的效果怎麼樣是是是是效果如何來請教主委跟這個市長效果如何這個效果我這邊"},{"start":9574.144,"end":9600.627,"text":"因為他問你們效果要評估啊 效果是你要評估啊因為那個去年才完成修法然後是今年五月才要那為什麼還有那麼多產業界有共同的心聲也請很多的這個國會議員在這個修法上面再給予更多的支持但我說上次的修法還沒有到位嘛效果還沒有充分展現出來所以這一次才要再一次啟動修法嘛"},{"start":9601.488,"end":9616.069,"text":"所以如果這個效果是好的我想財政部也會支持嘛好那我們就按照本席的版本通過所以還是需要行政來協調一下這個"},{"start":9618.877,"end":9638.986,"text":"這次沒有院版那我看過這個跨黨派的版本大概基本上立場大概都是一致大概四個重點新創抵檢然後能電年限要增加然後這個法人跟創投的股東抵檢這個都是跨黨派共同的意見也是業界一直跟我們反映的"},{"start":9640.367,"end":9658.102,"text":"所以在沒有願滿的情況之下我們希望以跨黨派共同的條文內容我希望一步到位另外我剛剛提到的醫療社團法人的部分這個部分財政部的立場如何"},{"start":9661.108,"end":9688.441,"text":"醫療社團如果上23條之二23條之三是 報告委員這個我們是建議先由主管機關包括衛福部跟經濟部先評估是所以現在是因為這個沒有還沒有23條之三的版本如果有版本我還是會請衛福部先來表達意見那如果站在產業的發展那個次長或者諸位如果23條之二我剛剛這個宗嘉斌委員所提到把這個醫療社團法的納入產狀條例"},{"start":9692.475,"end":9718.184,"text":"國安會好了 國安會 那個主委我們會我們會會仔細的評估 那把這個部分 你要協調這個衛福部看看是不是這個可行性怎麼樣 好好謝謝下回質疑 請張家俊委員"},{"start":9728.496,"end":9732.033,"text":"主席 何市長 請經濟部何市長"},{"start":9737.413,"end":9762.651,"text":"次長我想今天大家非常關心的都是有關於去年我們在立法院通過了這個核管法之後重新讓重啟核三變成一個可能的事情那最近我看到這個台電在3月底送銷了這個核三的再營運計畫那希望說我想要請教一下次長經濟部目前對於核能重啟的態度是什麼"},{"start":9764.286,"end":9777.171,"text":"當然 核能重啟要經過一個程序未來台電會送再運轉計畫到經濟部我現在想要知道經濟部目前是樂觀其成嗎 支持嗎當然我們是樂觀其成你也同意說我們現在國家是需要核能的吧"},{"start":9789.096,"end":9794.797,"text":"就是現在有這樣的一個機制我們就照這樣的機制來讓這個核三所以身為經濟部次長你不認為我們國家需要核能嗎這整個國家的運轉上我們現在經濟的發展上核能不重要嗎 重要吧其實核能的部分這個我們也一直在"},{"start":9811.101,"end":9815.543,"text":"再跟外界你不要那麼害怕啦也不要那麼小心真的我希望說既然經濟部我們已經走上這條路經濟部就要大方的承認說我們是支持核能的嘛而且現在很多歐美國家過去反核的"},{"start":9827.208,"end":9848.601,"text":"也都自己面對說時代不一樣現在的確我們就是需要核能 核能是乾淨能源那重啟核三是一個非常嚴謹的流程這個我想大家都同意那根據目前的資訊台電要先針對設備老化耐震進行自主的安全檢查然後後續還要進到核安衛來審查那本席想要請問次長最快什麼時候能夠看到核三廠的電力"},{"start":9856.306,"end":9870.671,"text":"再重新注入台灣的電網呢可能自主安全檢查要1.5年到2年啦這樣算起來呢所以20282028喔那我怎麼之前聽你們在喊2027"},{"start":9873.154,"end":9889.331,"text":"因為還要核安會審查的這個時間所以你們本來是希望2027但是又delay到2028嗎沒有delay啦就是整個程序這樣算下來那有可能加快嗎加快腳步嗎要看設備的這個狀況啦因為"},{"start":9891.153,"end":9903.488,"text":"還要經過這個當然安全是第一這個我想大家都同意就是在安全無疑的情況之下行政速度不像是行政速度拖累了整個運轉整個檢查好不好"},{"start":9906.471,"end":9929.383,"text":"我們希望說盡量的加快角度因為現在台灣的這個能源嫩性是非常的脆弱因為國際的情勢現在也很不穩定我想中東的戰火直接威脅到我們天然氣的供應鏈那台灣的這個發電比例天然氣的發電比例現在是多少"},{"start":9930.609,"end":9945.926,"text":"你們知道嗎如果以我的資料看是已經接近接近五成對不對接近五成但我們的安全存量只有短短的11天次長你知道韓國跟日本的天然氣儲備大概是多久嗎"},{"start":9947.619,"end":9966.196,"text":"好 你不知道那個韓國大概是一個月然後日本是三週所以我要知道的是說我們雖然很希望趕快重啟核能但是我也希望問一個問題就是我們的天然氣存量為什麼沒有辦法"},{"start":9967.27,"end":9988.956,"text":"增加天數呢?我們就是除潮啦所以我們都知道是除潮的問題那我們不可能今天才知道除潮的問題那兩年前三年前這麼多年所以我就是要問你新建的速度跟新建的進度你有掌握嗎?有有有我們有掌握現在狀況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":9992.207,"end":10006.298,"text":"明年我們那個法定的那個天數會安全儲量會提升到14天所以我們就是所以你們努力了這麼多年只有增加三天的儲量喔當然那個你們有沒有預估說我們要能夠"},{"start":10008.004,"end":10035.947,"text":"比照說韓國我們可以拉長到一個月那如果我們的安全儲量要拉長到一個月的話我們需要哪些基礎設施我們需要哪些投資這個經濟部難道都沒有規劃嗎這我們都有規劃有規劃那你講給我聽你們的規劃是什麼這個部分因為我手頭上沒有把這個資料帶在這裡所以現在本席就提醒你然後甚至是不是可以盡快的提出書面資料送到本席辦公室因為這個"},{"start":10037.948,"end":10044.97,"text":"是全台灣的安全耶我們怎麼會不趕快加速加碼去把它完成呢一邊重啟核能一邊要加快這個天然氣除草的增建讓我們可以更安全嘛這一點你同意嗎同意"},{"start":10056.914,"end":10074.505,"text":"當然3月底馬上又要召開電價審議委員會現在大家都在擔心電價又要漲了所以本席要請教次長這一次的成本壓力經濟部是不是還是能以照顧民生優先呢"},{"start":10075.888,"end":10080.95,"text":"我們會把委員的這個意見會帶到那個審議會我們當然就是說希望能夠物價能夠穩定那當然這個決定漲價或不漲價這個是在審議會因為這個對於很多小家庭甚至小商店小吃店影響非常的大而且我還要再一次呼籲就是說這個農業電價絕對不能漲因為農民真的是太辛苦了"},{"start":10103.118,"end":10109.981,"text":"這一點您能同意嗎當然我們會綜合考量在電價審議會裡面因為已經動漲了嘛農業電價現在是已經動漲但是是不是能夠繼續維持動漲這一點請次長一定要強烈的幫我們主張好嗎所以我會把我的意見帶給審議會好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝張家俊委員來 次長先回座"},{"start":10127.304,"end":10128.545,"text":"好謝謝主席先請何次長請經濟部何次長"},{"start":10154.5,"end":10167.927,"text":"市長我先請教一下這個大林埔遷村其實時間已經也相當久的時間了我先問一個市長經營部有沒有信心在明年整個正式來啟動遷村讓啟動整個程序完全來進行"},{"start":10169.093,"end":10192.3,"text":"但我們的目標是這樣沒錯啦那今年我們希望能夠今年底能夠完成這個環評跟都計的作業程序對這些都完成之後明年就可以正式來遷春了嘛我們希望這個目標要全力來完成因為鄉親等待相當久的時間那所以現在的環評跟都計都在程序當中也都在經濟部的掌握當中應該沒有問題"},{"start":10193.84,"end":10216.077,"text":"好 那另外我請教一下要增購台塘的6.7公頃土地這個有沒有問題這應該沒問題啦這也沒有問題我們大概就是會跟台塘這邊來這個就是協議啦協議增購啦 對對對好 那另外我請教所謂無房無地的這個住戶的不能設宅的方案這個溝通協調什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":10217.446,"end":10224.766,"text":"這個我們有把這個意見提到院裡面那我想院會再做處理我希望這個盡快的完成好不好是"},{"start":10226.71,"end":10245.556,"text":"市長這個預定多久可以完成我覺得經濟部要有一個設定一個時間點我們是不是盡快我們請那個院裡面來出面來協助我希望一個月內把這件事情定案好嗎我們來盡量來協助朝這個方向一個月內定案好不好因為現在是很細微的一些問題而已定案就可以盡速讓鄉親們做出一個好的選擇"},{"start":10247.176,"end":10268.237,"text":"好 謝謝那再來我回到今天的我想今天的整個廠商條例裡面其實適用範圍的部分擴大經濟部應該是原則上是同意這樣的方向的因為你們的辦法裡面其實也是8年所以我想這樣的方向應該有助於我們對於新創的一個也謝謝邱委員的一個提案那其實我們來看一下數字上"},{"start":10268.817,"end":10288.155,"text":"如果是3到5年有1165家但是如果5到8年的話就有3061家會增加的將近到3倍的一個新創的量 納入我覺得對於新創是一個鼓舞啦而且新創也確實是台灣也是世界都很重視的我想這樣的方向經濟部支持嘛"},{"start":10288.695,"end":10315.533,"text":"是支持好支持那我們再來看一下其實整個所有的包括各個產業界的也都希望能夠增強企業投資新創的意願而這是最關鍵的如果我們能夠有更多政府的支持更多企業願意投入到肯定跟支持新創的能量的話那我們新創就有更多可能性那新創只要有一些能夠成功的話其實就帶動起很大的一個動能了所以我覺得這樣的投資對於台灣這樣的國家來說"},{"start":10318.975,"end":10339.917,"text":"所以我們希望在政策上有更多的放寬跟鼓勵跟支持我們的企業來投入我們的新創那國外的經濟裡面有很多像包括義大利包括法國包括南韓甚至於泰國都有用專法的方式來做一個對新創的鼓勵經濟部要朝這樣的方向來走嗎"},{"start":10341.128,"end":10359.184,"text":"我們會來做研議啦研議看能不能是在產創條例裡面還是在有一個專法產創條例當然是個專章而已啦但是我剛剛也講了幾個國家都是用專法的方式我也建議其實經濟部可以審慎評估當我們認為新創事業是一個新的重要的事業的話產業的話"},{"start":10360.405,"end":10381.529,"text":"我們用專法來顯現出我們對於新創事業的重視同時間我們也給予更大的一個肯定就像最早期的時候這個再生能源只是在能源裡面的一個專章而已但是後來我們把它立了一個新的法出來之後我們推動再生能源的力道跟態度就是不一樣所以我也希望未來新創是用專法的方向也希望進一步朝這個方向來推動好嗎"},{"start":10381.949,"end":10409.97,"text":"好我們來演繹好謝謝那另外新創其實存在著南北的差異這個也請葉主委也一起思考其實幾乎集中在台北我們看這個加數裡面台北就7000多家裡面台北就佔了4000多家新北又佔了1400多家兩者幾乎佔了最高的一個比例那中部1200多家南部大概1500多家但中部集中在台中南部就是高雄跟台南所以"},{"start":10410.33,"end":10428.867,"text":"我會強烈的還是會這我每年幾乎都要求的我也希望經濟部也希望國發會持續來推動讓怎麼樣讓新創在南部特別是中南部能夠有發展的機會這個就需要的是各位要更強力的去輔導跟協助大多數能量比較強的都是在北部"},{"start":10429.147,"end":10452.988,"text":"那如果南部的問題所以我還希望不管是你們的天使計畫你們的各種的輔導的計畫一定還是要請葉主委請何次長這邊要加強對於南部的輔導的力道南部他們不是他們不需要也不是他們扶持不起來而是他們其實需要更多的協助所以我希望在部裡的資源跟國發的資源要加重對中南部的不管是高雄台南"},{"start":10453.708,"end":10480.998,"text":"或是台中這幾個主要都會的他們本身有很強的新創能量但需要更多的支持所以我這個希望主委跟這個次長能夠加強這樣力道好嗎好不好主委要不要也說明一下好不好這幾年其實我也是在逼國發會重視這個問題那成效其實很有限主委要不要講一下怎麼來努力就這個部分跟委員報告就是說我們在114年已經有投資了大概300家的新創然後投資進也大概是43億那帶動民間"},{"start":10482.798,"end":10502.427,"text":"共同投資有178億那就高雄及南部地區在114年的投資金額跟件數來看的話高雄這個部分的話已經有投資14家的新創那金額大概來到1.74億那在南部的話有一些就有投資了30億家的新創事業那金額大概是4.4億"},{"start":10503.527,"end":10533.063,"text":"那截至在今年的2月底為止我們南部的那個辦公室協助新創的情況我們有大概辦了10場的廣宣你提這個我大概都知道但是事實上在跟北部還是有相當大的落差我想這是個事實所以我希望因為從這個表上面都很清楚看到其實北部跟南部落差相當大所以我希望給一個目標希望在下次在今年度的時候我看到至少高雄在新創這樣的能量至少達到台北的一半"},{"start":10533.563,"end":10558.184,"text":"加速至少努力到台北的一半我不敢馬上追上台北但至少有台北的一半那這樣南北之間的差距才能夠縮減好不好我希望兩位都能以這樣為目標去要求你們的團隊好不好高雄的數量達到至少台北的一半好我下次會來檢視這樣的數字啦好謝謝主委謝謝市長好謝謝委員好謝謝各位委員好像沒有到一半現在是十分之一而已十分之一"},{"start":10560.015,"end":10566.18,"text":"這個主委再加油一下南部的心臟太少好 下一位陳昌明陳昌明委員不在好好 來"},{"start":10570.151,"end":10594.12,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場之外 區議員發言完畢 我們詢問結束由委員羅志強 林德福 羅明財 陳昌明所諜 疏避質詢列入提出 刊登公報疏避質詢案未及答案部分 請相關單位一周之內以疏避答案並複製 等會委員另有要求期限者 重新鎖定本日議程詢談完畢 大家辛苦了另外這期繼續審查 我們先來散會 謝謝大家"},{"start":10609.136,"end":10609.296,"text":"好,我來給你"},{"start":10636.782,"end":10638.628,"text":"待會兒去一家店不要了"}]}},{"id":"167710","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167710","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e593a9affeb85e8970f31a176eedb5d66a3d6f5a3a5be601f8a2cf89a319f4586af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:48:55 - 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有請部長 謝謝請部長"},{"start":13.293,"end":28.703,"text":"最近外交有所突破但是我想提另外一件事情就是我們的女足我們的女足在澳洲比賽的時候發生了一些打壓的現象比如說她喊台灣加油"},{"start":34.086,"end":49.015,"text":"這個被請出場那又有呢這一個所謂他這個是因為美國職棒以前大都會有那個台灣日嘛所以他是穿那個台灣日的那個衣服那結果呢因為台灣日的衣服背後就只有印台灣而且是英文台灣那這個球衣也被要求要拿下來"},{"start":49.875,"end":75.153,"text":"那我就想說當然其實我看到後來這個全場球迷還是喊聽台灣聽喊得很大聲那這整件事情其實說真的我們理論上澳洲對我們來講也是友善的國家那在想到底是第一線的這個工作人員對於這些規則他有一些自己的解讀那還是說我們在事前有沒有什麼可以以後防範像這樣的一個事情發生不然的話這其實也是在破壞兩個國家的關係"},{"start":77.653,"end":92.98,"text":"其實中共它長期在外國去要求甚至是解釋包括跟奧運或者其他的運動比賽其實這並不是它那樣子它也是一個認知作戰為什麼不能叫台灣"},{"start":94.1,"end":117.426,"text":"為什麼在觀眾席人家比較不干擾比賽人家要穿什麼衣服這是一個民主社會自然會尊重的一個思維這不是政府要去介入的可是中共就會去要求他有些進入單項或那個委員會因為中共在國際組織包括運動的這些協會都有很大的力量他在控制為什麼今天就是聯合國周邊組織都被中共控制他長期把祕書處佔領"},{"start":119.446,"end":132.826,"text":"所以是這個問題變成很多是變成是受他影響有些人不了解狀況每一個事件發生我們就要趕快去交涉也是一個機會交易那以澳洲這一次來看你看他們澳洲人的反應就很自然支持台灣就是台灣他們"},{"start":134.688,"end":149.494,"text":"一些運動的協會或是主辦單位他也會知道 他也會去權衡或有時候會稍微有一個空間他就念一念 跟中共交代但是你要怎麼去揮旗子 穿衣服那剩下來就是你的自由"},{"start":150.074,"end":170.531,"text":"我是覺得一個自由的社會會有這樣的空間只要你不干擾比賽 大家會加油像博士受邀訪去表演的原住民團隊一下子可以 一下子不可以那主辦單位也很失禮啊他們私底下都會說抱歉可是公開因為老共就盯著每一個人像是在法國辦奧運的時候滿場的人他們都坐在那邊他這一種所謂的"},{"start":176.633,"end":203.772,"text":"這個所謂的跨境的管轄跟鎮壓無所不在所以這個是我們機會教育所以台灣人要有這樣的一個我們要很清楚 機會來了我們怎麼樣去處理讓國際知道中共的那一種做法其實是沒有什麼依據的是因為他這個久了之後就按照他的方法說他拍人一拍人嘛 大家不想去得罪他我們就委屈 那委屈也無法求全所以我們就是做我們該做的"},{"start":204.552,"end":227.425,"text":"剛剛替部長的回答我覺得當然就是兩個軸線第一個軸線就是說因為畢竟對方是用政治去干預這場運動那當然一定會造成對方的反感那我們在這個之前去做溝通的時候也一樣啊對方也覺得說那就是你們兩個國家的政治所以我們當然會有一個fine line要特別的小心就是我們盡量能夠事前溝通這是一定的第二個"},{"start":228.105,"end":248.6,"text":"剛剛我覺得第二條軸線剛剛部長提到的我覺得很重要就是我們要去凸顯也就是說它的打壓已經成為了一個既成事實它就是一定會做這件事我們也預判得了它做這件事那我們不如讓大家知道這件事情的發生所以越讓大家知道其實澳洲人民一樣就是他們的人民反而是會反感的"},{"start":249.02,"end":270.782,"text":"這是另外一種反向的操作所以我不是每一次都一定要是跟他硬碰硬但是我們後續的這一個處理反而去凸顯這個中國的阿爸我覺得這件事情是非常重要那這個就拜託外交部總而外交就是人人都是外交官隨時隨地啊一有機會當然為台灣發聲但是也要有智慧的處理所以這個之後就拜託外交部能夠協調懸橫"},{"start":273.084,"end":292.941,"text":"那當然大家都會期待我們政府啦就是但是我們我們就是大家跟各界一起來因應那剛剛也是就是大家都很關心就是說這一個目前來講韓國這個以前只是在去年就已經開始這樣的事情我看媒體朋友其實也問過很多次那我們在每一次回答的時候也都是告訴這個"},{"start":294.282,"end":319.448,"text":"媒體說在交涉當中就是呢我們畢竟不想要去破壞兩個國家的外交關係那這個因為丹麥這一個政府核發給台灣人的這個拘留證那這個也出現了這個矮化的這個現象那因為剛剛韓國已經被討論很久了我想知道就是在其他國家的情形比如說像剛剛提到的丹麥的情形我們目前的狀況處理的狀況如何我想丹麥政府也不希望葛林蘭變成美國的"},{"start":321.949,"end":345.48,"text":"那為什麼要把台灣變成中國的所以我們的交涉很有道理他們是躲起來就是他們有一個外交官很堅持其實他們政府大部分人都覺得國會議員也覺得為什麼要這樣之類的我看台灣人民的反應也是應該是如此才對所以他反而可能有一些個別的外交官可能做出相關的決定我們就要給他壓力所以我們也去交涉G7"},{"start":346.54,"end":368.683,"text":"很多國家也都覺得這個歐盟大部分的國家都很正常的啊為什麼你要去給人家改成China國號台灣或什麼這個居留證就突然去改你的依據是什麼就是亂解釋一通啦現在一中連則已經都在北京亂解釋啦大家你看2758號決議為什麼人家很多國家歐盟包括G7都不講"},{"start":369.504,"end":383.062,"text":"現在連一中政策都不講因為會被混淆成一中原則一中不一中是中國的事啊我們台灣就是台灣這是川普總統講的啊台灣是台灣所以我是覺得為什麼用台灣有罪嗎"},{"start":384.622,"end":411.765,"text":"用台灣不行嗎台灣是個很中性的名詞啊所以我們已經退無可退啊是在這個情況之下我們得到國際的支持因為每個人很自然都會講台灣嘛你講全台北就很奇怪但是因為有些國際組織我們參加用那個名字可是你如果要擴張解釋裡面都不能出現連台灣大學也不能出現嗎National也不行台灣也不行那就變成University"},{"start":412.446,"end":430.412,"text":"這真的很奇怪 誇張啦全世界都認為說 他就是霸凌啊 中共啊因為久了之後 大家都 對不對就像俄羅斯對不對 弄頭得寸進尺今天就是打了烏克蘭 下一國要打哪裡那中國要欺負台灣 霸凌台灣那下一國哩 菲律賓嗎 日本嗎"},{"start":431.812,"end":459.675,"text":"所以大家現在都知道這個問題不是在台灣在中國我相信這個部長這樣的一個態度在國際上我認為是非常重要那我們長久以來這一個中國的打壓我們大概是已經忍受了非常的久那目前世界各國慢慢對這件事情尤其你看在這個總和外交的狀況之下認知的人越來越多我們在之前質詢的時候也一直不斷的強調我們除了面對這些什麼智庫啦政府官員之外人民真的很重要那現在很多國家的人民對這個是有認知的"},{"start":461.536,"end":480.788,"text":"那當然在越來越多人站起來這個反作用力一定還是在本來很習慣於中國打壓的跟中國在那邊好來好去的有利益交換的這些一定都還存在而這一些人還是會不斷地冒出來那我們用這樣的一個堅決的態度就是要告訴他們我們是不會退讓的謝謝部長這樣的一個態度那接下來海健"},{"start":481.488,"end":505.645,"text":"事情就是就是剛剛前面應該很多委員都有問到就是這一次我們在這個杜拜我們去做這些相關的協助啦反國啦那這個部長應該也知道中國在這邊做手腳嘛就跟關西機場那時候一模一樣嘛他想要去製造一些假資訊啊等等之類的我認為這一次政府的應對是很快的比如說一開始最早的有多少人要協助請他們填表單後來的關懷卡我覺得這個部分看起來是應對得當"},{"start":511.289,"end":521.997,"text":"我現在擔心的是我看到有這一個也是當時的僑胞他有出來拍了一部影片這部影片現在也是近30萬的觀看他在指出一個問題就是說當時我們大使館的人員在凌晨4點的時候來迎接國人"},{"start":531.664,"end":546.125,"text":"那就可以看到這個下方這個畫面這個是華視新聞的畫面裡面就有講到說這一個我們的僑民也非常的開心說這個謝謝這個大使給予台灣人這個溫暖的照顧看起來是很好的一件事情嘛"},{"start":547.106,"end":570.412,"text":"結果呢在另外一台新聞他就發現一樣的畫面講的完全不一樣另外一個畫面在右邊叫受購外交部然後呢這一個呢累翻這一個呢逃難之旅終於落幕所以這個受購外交部這一個很明顯就是明明就是同樣的一個場合同樣的一個畫面但我們的新聞呈現變得完全不同"},{"start":571.212,"end":592.466,"text":"那我說當然新聞有它新聞的觀點台灣各式各樣什麼樣的新聞都有有些跟中國站在一起的新聞是多得很但是新聞還是要根據於事實所以我想知道當時的事實到底是什麼報告員就是我們的駐外的管處的外交官即使沒有外交特權我們都是拼命"},{"start":593.406,"end":616.605,"text":"在就是幫助國人那有些資訊怎麼樣去獲得因為發生戰爭不是我們希望看到可是這是一個人當然我們政府有政府在這個是大家比較安心可是每一個人怎麼樣去做處置這個資訊我們能夠把資訊網先建立起來這個才能夠應變所以我剛剛講有兩種人一種人是居住在當地國家的甚至入籍的台灣人"},{"start":617.705,"end":638.055,"text":"台商 或者是留學生 另外是旅客因為這些資訊大量的是我們必須要掌握 不然的話我們也不知道怎麼去幫忙至於說幫忙 因為有一些地方 舟車 勞動很遠到了之後我們的外交官也一樣進不去 因為我們有些沒有外交豁免或特權這個時候有一些體諒 我們也互相體諒"},{"start":640.976,"end":661.807,"text":"所以我都跟我的同仁講說我們做什麼除了做之外也要讓社會知道所以後來才有這些影片陸續有一些旅客或者是台灣人他們就把它拍上去或照片我就說你拿到這個也要分享因為分享大家才知道我們有政府在在那個地方所以這些事情就是有時候難免"},{"start":664.009,"end":692.528,"text":"損失有一定比例我們沒有照顧到我們趕快來補救我也是用這個心情跟我們駐外人員講我們不是萬能的但一遇到國人有狀況他有一些處境我們要設身處地同理心我又跟同仁講所以我們去幫忙他讓他比較安心一點所以我想後來大家看到的就是我們外交部在做的事情不只是說到機場到學校到有一些地方去關心也了解然後也協助"},{"start":693.268,"end":695.934,"text":"我覺得這件事情外交部是非常的辛苦"},{"start":696.721,"end":723.494,"text":"那大家知道外交部的辛苦這件事情我覺得反而是重要的因為如果你不讓大家知道外交部在這件事情辛苦的過程其他的東西就會一直冒出來就是不斷的在作戰不斷的去告訴你說這個外交部有多無能這個對我們來講會是一個非常大的傷害所以尤其是就過往都發生過有這樣的一個外界就是帶風向"},{"start":724.614,"end":739.984,"text":"然後帶風向的形成那個批評之後呢結果這個批評到最後又落入到這一個我們基層同仁的身上我覺得這個是一定我們要避免的那我相信剛剛部長在捍衛我們台灣的主權捍衛中華民國的主權的時候已經講得很清楚我們不會這個中國的打壓"},{"start":740.825,"end":769.291,"text":"我們在國內也是一樣我覺得國內有太多是跟著在中國硬核的一群人我們也一樣我們不能夠去畏懼這樣的一個打壓我們不能夠畏懼這樣的一個抹黑事實是什麼我們把它講清楚讓大家知道外交部現在的困難然後外交部現在也的確有預算還沒審嘛對不對就是這都是問題那但是我們在這一個有限的預算之下該做的能做的然後要補足的外交部都會去做這個拜託外交部再多多push出去好"},{"start":769.431,"end":783.607,"text":"我再跟委員回應一下我們外交部有很大改善的空間我們要不斷去精進因為有時候發生事情但是我們有做的也要會講剛剛委員有提到因為這個也會涉及到我們或後續再比較好做那這一個發生這種"},{"start":784.668,"end":801.569,"text":"危機啦這種第一時間每一個人的情況我們怎麼樣去掌握資訊我想只要是在地不管經商留學或已經入籍的我相信幾乎我不敢講百分之百可能90以上"},{"start":802.29,"end":828.249,"text":"我們都有建立聯絡所以在第一個時間像我們的這些外館都馬上就會發訊當然有時候通訊不行那會有一些要去解決的問題可是旅客啦過境有時候怎麼樣會是能夠對他們有幫助而他們也能夠幫助自己我們一起來面對這種危機讓他們每一個人都可以平安好 謝謝部長那後續我就在下一次的這個夜報我可能再來詢問謝謝主席 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"167709","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167709","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e598a5b8f9335e599e05fca415873cf37f1d6f5a3a5be601f8a9cee5e6b172f0fbd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:54:34 - 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這個很尊重召委也希望司法法治委員會能夠考量一下因為五院是平等的好 那我們就來邀請我們的這個劉秘書長還有施部長還有這個蔡主任委員來幫我們做個介紹我們了解你們的立法計畫"},{"start":87.689,"end":96.397,"text":"委員長好 秘書長好 部長好 主委好請教一下秘書長今年是馬年嘛馬有很多種馬嘛 今年是哪一種馬下一頁是丙午馬嘛 對不對丙午嘛齁 丙午馬年那你有沒有聽過甲午有嗎齁你覺得甲午比較好還是丙午比較好甲比較好還是丙比較好"},{"start":110.902,"end":126.874,"text":"沒有差別啊 天干地支嘛我小時候的學校很小我國小只有四個班啊我是念丙班的啊那甲班的同學是不是比我好也沒有啊我大學那個考那個選擇題ABCDEABCDE哪一個答案最好"},{"start":128.106,"end":142.63,"text":"也沒有A比較好啊 都填A嗎對不對 更何況我家隔壁鄰居的孩子他念醫學系 我是念歷史系我就問媽媽說 媽媽他醫學系沒有了不起他是丙組的 我是乙組的好歹還贏他一個組 有沒有道理"},{"start":144.332,"end":164.186,"text":"沒有道理嘛所以不管ABCD加一餅它根本不是一個什麼高下的順序嘛小時候我們拿國小成績單我拿到什麼我拿到算數優國語良體育可勞作劣那是不是很清楚表達我的能力那請問我們公務人員的考積怎麼表達來下一頁聽到乙等炸鍋啊乙不好嗎我是乙組的"},{"start":173.459,"end":199.957,"text":"民主黨 了解我的意思齁你們的考計法是不是要改變一下真實的去反映工人員的表現有嗎 可以考慮一下嗎是 這個也是我們要處理的重點謝謝 謝謝我想我是說因為 文組的比較咬文嚼字啦齁我們請教一個問題齁台中地院一等懲處 結果炸鍋是被懲處人炸的鍋嗎 不是啦是被懲處的這個 被一等的懲處他是怎樣 詐騙犯 判刑 忘了執行"},{"start":201.178,"end":223.772,"text":"還被監察院糾正結果回到機關懲處考慮疑等你知道誰不服嗎跟這一個司法官同時期考慮疑等的司法官都不服啊他這樣子都疑等那我疑等算什麼民主黨你會不會覺得這樣好像有點不公平你也知道我們公會機關有沒有輪流刺激的部分有嘛有些機關叫做交互吞掉你有沒有聽過交互吞掉"},{"start":225.04,"end":250.55,"text":"因為我們的比例嘛就是最差的那兩個人只有一定要有一個是乙等嘛所以今年我明年你我們就交互蹲跳嘛那會不會影響到我的機關調動升遷我們有啊我們都常常我在地方政府當副首長的時候常常要調動升遷過去三年不能有兩年以上考慮乙等嘛那我交互蹲跳我根本不好意思那三年或兩年是蹲乙那我就不能做啦有沒有這個情況"},{"start":252.103,"end":268.777,"text":"所以我今天聽你們這個業務的介紹我也很好奇說你們的修法計畫怎麼樣來吸引優秀的人才你們修法計畫打算怎麼做請部長來說明各位報告方向向大概您剛剛提的東西我們都不會做"},{"start":269.877,"end":285.923,"text":"就不會去往那個方向走所以往好的方向好那我們好的方向來我們目前就是會用什麼優良可略這類的方式我們大概會用三個概念就是分成三個也不會固定比例很好那你們有沒有考慮過去好的跟普通的考機獎金只差0.5個月這個會不會調整這個也都在討論的範圍是我們來看一下來"},{"start":297.668,"end":315.252,"text":"我們最近棒球熱狼如果說我現在職棒球員啦打全壘打拿勝投拿MVP奪冠貢獻程度不同嘛如果說職棒球員說來中夏比尼球員有上場的一律激勵金一百塊如果K出的全壘打多兩百塊我會去爭取打全壘打嗎你知道意思齁所以我們跳危來看齁所以目前呢我們覺得你會覺得這樣的一個差距不足以激勵公務員的士氣"},{"start":329.383,"end":354.396,"text":"差距這麼小有沒有可能有多一點把他差距拉大讓他感受有一點比較強烈應該這樣講 委員那個老師我先講這個前一陣子我們考試院通過一個激勵辦法是我們先希望用激勵辦法平時讓主管就有經費對於表現好的公務同仁隨時就可以不要只用年終的考試獎金"},{"start":355.877,"end":380.561,"text":"我們應該走這兩個方式一起來處理這樣才是一個比較完整即使獎勵比那個年終耶但年終我們一樣會處理這個部分所以你們包括我這邊寫的取消了甲等的三就是網路平台嘛對不對第二個有人提議說把這個機率呢擴大或者說經常秘書長這是代表我們考試院希望我們立法院在修法的時候能夠支持這樣的看法這是你們大院的態度嗎秘書長剛剛部長所做的這些"},{"start":384.402,"end":397.635,"text":"其實我們為什麼前面是先跟院跟部先做了很多次的討論就是我們希望說院內大概對於改革方向有相當共識那現在就是在跟外部溝通當中外部溝通就是包括我們公務體系很好"},{"start":399.356,"end":421.09,"text":"好來我們來看一下希望你們有機會去新加坡看一下新加坡他的積極差異化獎勵制度留住人蠶了你看有做這些有專家組成排序小組分為五個考積的等地不是加一餅丁物是可能是優良可略差什麼之類的常態各地的常態分布前5%可以拿三個月的底薪那個薪水寫錯了薪要扣你少了"},{"start":424.339,"end":448.326,"text":"這個有沒有辦法來參考一下新加坡新加坡工人的待遇是很好的有沒有可能往這個方向來調待遇水準的部分他們真的是全世界算是頂尖是啊但這你們管不到啦因為這是主計跟人總啊某些獎勵的概念其實我覺得多數國家的像是對考積的評定啦他們都是在獎勵最前面的特殊表現然後肯定中間的那個部分是大多數的人"},{"start":449.446,"end":476.684,"text":"那 但是尾巴該注意的人還是要把他找到是 對 最後老鼠你剛剛講了 我後面講了後面要怎麼處理 來像這些啦除了積極攬財之外呢 貸款制度同等重要嘛考紀法第八條嘛什麼之類的人呢非有這種情況不得考慮丁等 丁等就是劣啦叫太儲的啦挑撥離間啦 不聽指揮啦嚴當公務啦 平心不端啦很誇張嘛 對不對結果呢 很多這樣的情況之下怎樣"},{"start":477.867,"end":499.353,"text":"如果不夠誇張還是拿平等 還是拿什麼 可啊所以到底這些用詞 法律的用詞都很抽象怎麼樣讓公務人員又說警惕最後面這些該汰除的他不會因為這樣的關係在懲處的時候就拿個可 續留部長你的看法呢 這些文字內容是不是要量化而不是只用抽象的中文"},{"start":499.713,"end":517.562,"text":"我跟委員報告我們對於所謂未來一個方案除了講工作考機年度考機我們另外一塊是行為面的行為面就是走專案懲處我們把這些東西事實上都會在專案懲處裡面非常距離化什麼事情碰到機關就要及時處理所以專案懲處後所留下的平時的紀錄在年終考機的時候就可以量化來處理還是會反映好 最後呢 來"},{"start":524.745,"end":527.347,"text":"所以最後請民主黨跟部長是不是支持我們一個月內提出這些內容那為什麼我請主委上來呢因為我覺得今天部長跟主委都是學界出身我希望你們在提供我這些資料的時候能夠勾結一下在保訓會因為保訓會裡面處理會會有兩種情況"},{"start":543.399,"end":562.555,"text":"一種是的確是那種烤雞該很差的他的申訴沒有效一種是呢的確有冤枉的那你們把這兩種情況勾結回他當時機關的原烤雞去對照就能抓出說怎麼樣的烤雞是如實如質的可不可以部長 主委可以協助嗎這是要我們跨部會來協助"},{"start":563.929,"end":584.777,"text":"對 我想跟委員報告 我想我剛剛已經報告了 部裡面大概下禮拜最晚這個月底我們會正式公告 徵詢意見把我們所有的想法 條文具體都已經報告了我的意思是說還包括去參考我們保訓會去跟他們申訴的 可能有些過當的或不足的你們也都可以主委 表達一下跟委員報告 這沒有問題是好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主委也謝謝秘書長 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張偉我可不可以邀請經濟部財政部跟國發會的歷史官員 請經濟部副市長 國會主委 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我再回頭跟你講"},{"start":259.52,"end":288.071,"text":"其實我覺得報告裡面有點到一些問題也是我在了解確實在我們的公務體系當中很多公務員面臨到的問題包括業務膨脹但待遇不夠那缺二率攀高工作量變大這是惡性循環嘛然後接下來公務體系如果開始淪為血汗工廠大家更不敢去那另外剛剛我看前面秘書長也在備詢的時候也提到一件事就是說公務人員的考試跟一般民間是不一樣的"},{"start":288.931,"end":317.534,"text":"你光備考的那個所謂的成本就非常的高所以當你的所謂的民間的公司跟公務員現在能夠提供的保障大家覺得差別不大或是甚至相對來講限制更多的時候那為什麼要花那麼多時間去準備這公務員的考試呢所以這中間就是出現一個我覺得很大的一個落差那這落差我覺得政府實質上我覺得最大責任還是在我們的中央政府手上啦"},{"start":318.001,"end":328.832,"text":"你的考試的政策你的所謂的全序的政策你的所謂人事的政策如果沒有辦法提供足夠的誘因的話就像剛剛部長講秘書長講的說想要減科來去減少他們進入的門檻可是我就要問一件事情"},{"start":334.338,"end":351.93,"text":"那以前其實所謂的考試的門檻相對高的時候並沒有影響公務人員的報考的意願那為什麼現在要用到說檢科的方式降低他的所謂的時間成本來增加意願他會顯現現在時代上一個很嚴重的差別嗎Misra你覺得呢"},{"start":353.331,"end":380.149,"text":"我覺得比較大的差別就是說民間的薪資水準跟民間求職的機會多不多當這個都比較高的時候公部門這邊就沒有那麼高的誘因我們看到某些時候就是說當民間大家年輕人覺得求職比較困難他可能會有來報考啦他也許就試一下但是那個而且在我們上一代的時候大家也覺得說公務員是真的比較有保障那是因為民間沒有那麼多誘因跟這個蓬勃發展的機會"},{"start":382.85,"end":411.833,"text":"至少我自己在報考公務員的年代那時候也稱之為台灣經濟起飛年代所以民間其實還是工作非常熱門的但是公務員報考那個政府機關工作他有一部分還是基於榮譽感他覺得做這個工作覺得是為國效力是也受到國家的尊重但是我覺得這幾年我覺得文官的所謂尊嚴跟自信心是受到一些衝擊我現在引一些東西我覺得希望我們考試院我們考試院是文官最大的後盾"},{"start":412.694,"end":434.852,"text":"那媒體的一些報導我覺得你們也是參考一下他說政治人為博聲量廣開議題戰場讓公務員忙得不可開交那社群時代加速輿論發酵速度又讓文官體制淪為回應的螺絲釘那裡面直接點名行政院秘書長張敦涵說一上任要求各部會照三餐回報於情"},{"start":435.692,"end":461.307,"text":"結果公務體系被迫化身成社群小編然後整天清早然後24小時要開始去分類收集輿情然後變成小編在粉專發文那這個現象我說真的當然跟現在時代改變有關係啦可是你怎麼樣讓公務員今天能夠不是負擔那麼重的所謂的政府的內宣或外宣的工作"},{"start":461.767,"end":476.314,"text":"能夠專注在自己本務上的一個所謂的經營創造一個好的環境我這需要考試院跟行政院去多去磋商去努力去保護我們公務員的工作跟尊嚴以上謝謝委員意見"}]}},{"id":"167725","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167725","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e592fb2c42557b253849f861acbcf5e150104a79691f9640293c358bed1a557d1e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:59:02 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麻煩請秘書長跟考選部 呃 那退府跟那個 市部長 市部長秘書長還有 劉部長也有嘛劉部長對 考選部的劉部長可以可以可以好委員長委員長早 委員長確認一下我們現在如果 退休的公務人員他如果到有公費資助的機關去任職的話他的薪資是有一個最低工資的上限對吧"},{"start":40.756,"end":68.246,"text":"這規定是從什麼時候開始的應該是我們在修改那個退伏法的時候就已經其實是在年金改革之前就已經是這樣那當時年金改革之前因為這些退休的公務人員可能政府認為說他們的退休金領的比較多那如果到又到另外一個機關任職的話如果沒有一個上限的話會有領雙薪的感覺所以有訂這個上限但是年改好像沒有把這個修掉"},{"start":68.846,"end":78.856,"text":"因為年改之後他們的退休金被砍了很多現在已經不是領的跟當初講的一樣那為什麼還要有這個上限有沒有曾經考慮過要把這個上限做一個調整"},{"start":81.578,"end":105.247,"text":"年改之前是用這個公司嘛現在也是啊就是這個部分因為他有立法當初的一個原意立法的原意我知道 可是現在已經不一樣了嘛現在年改了嘛所以我覺得第一個因為年改之後他們退休金也變少了而且他現在是退休到另外一個地方上班是憑自己的勞力"},{"start":106.147,"end":119.746,"text":"他不是憑空而來的錢啊所以你給他一個天花板讓他不能賺更多我覺得不合理啊我希望那個考試院可以針對這個地方來研議一下好不好那我今天會這邊提出來其實也是因為在教育現場遇到一個問題啊"},{"start":121.076,"end":144.431,"text":"什麼問題呢因為這個教師的終點費很久沒有調了嘛那好不容易前一段時間教育部終於幫教師調了終點費那當然不夠但是總算跨出第一步可是因為現在缺老師缺得非常嚴重那很嚴重的情況之下有很多退休老師他願意回到學校裡面來當終點老師但你忽然間終點費提高之後他能夠帶的課就少了"},{"start":145.071,"end":165.724,"text":"一下就達到上限了所以也造成那個教育現場的問題所以基於兩個理由啦我知道那個我看起來那個司務長好像第一次聽到有人提這個提這個問題有點錯愕甚至剛剛的資訊還不對啊還跟我講說說現在不是領最低工資現在就是領最低工資應該是我們有內部在討論這個議題有在討論喔"},{"start":168.246,"end":182.502,"text":"我沒有問你就沒有內部就沒討論我一問就內部有討論沒有關係沒有關係沒有關係這不是這什麼啊退位公事這就很合理啊第一個他已經年改了嘛退位金已經被砍啊所以你給他第二個他這是自己去上班啊又不是貧困給他錢第三個我剛剛講說"},{"start":185.385,"end":213.466,"text":"這個缺老師嘛退休老師進來之後他能夠上的課變少因為他一下就到上限啊而且整個勞動市場現在都缺缺人嘛所以你放寬這個如果退休公務人員去別的地方上班的工資的上限其實也可以解決一部分的人力的就業市場人力的問題所以我覺得這個事情是應該做的好不好那個部長請問一下大概什麼時候秘書長你覺得你認為這是不是應該一個改革的方向"},{"start":215.305,"end":241.721,"text":"這個聽起來是有討論空間所以全劇部也在討論當中不要每次我們在講什麼就說在討論當中我沒有講你們就沒有討論當中我們講的就討論當中好像一副都是我早就逼你先想到了就是要來這邊爭這個口舌之爭沒關係那你跟我講你什麼時候你們討論到什麼時候就要討論到討論到牛年馬月還是大月在冬季什麼時候"},{"start":242.682,"end":255.895,"text":"一個月可不可以一個月把方案提出來好不好報委員這個真的是我們不需要不是這個有什麼提高他的之前我跟你們講之前公務人員到大學去教書也是有上限後來也是後來有試限嘛"},{"start":258.337,"end":277.871,"text":"那現在公務人員到大學教書這個就放寬了嘛其實這個不是什麼了不起的問題啦好像講什麼大工程一樣沒有那麼大的工程啦要不要放寬而已你對於教育現場缺工或者是其他缺工或者是公務人員退休之後他退休金減少讓他多賺一點錢你願不願意而已嘛這個哪有什麼好工程的"},{"start":279.096,"end":308.36,"text":"公務人員不願意做事情啦 會有一百個理由啦願意做 也可以有一千零一個理由啦就看你願不願意做嘛 秘書長你應該是勇於認識的人啦好不好 可以啦 我們可以喔 一個月 一個月把報告好不好 主席 可以嗎 請可以喔 請一個月把這個研究的報告給本席啦 好不好要做不要做 這個主席才是請秘書長這裡喔 就是一個月內 然後將報告提供給業員之委員 還有我們司法委員會的委員們好不好"},{"start":308.86,"end":336.029,"text":"好 我再前面問一個問題因為前幾天嘛就是有公務員針對就是烤雞烤雞烤雞啦 夾燈移燈的比例提出這個在網路上面有提出他的意見然後我後來看到人事總署有回應他說看到了網友的呼籲了所以呢今年的夾燈比例一定不會低於前一年我覺得這很奇怪真的是喊的喔"},{"start":336.997,"end":358.619,"text":"今天到底要打甲還是甲乙你要根據他的表現嘛所以很多工人為什麼會不爽是因為我明明表現很好啊可是因為我比較菜啊所以我主管就說不然你今年先扛一下過兩年再輪別人所以才會有人呼籲說要把這個比例取消啊結果人事總署的回應居然是說啊沒關係啦我看到你的呼籲了啦不然今年就比去年高一點"},{"start":359.159,"end":384.435,"text":"是在菜市場喊價喔所以我剛剛講一句話啦因為考試法是考試院權責所以人總可能不方便在這個市場這個民主黨其實我也特別去看了齁其實這個東西跟什麼考試法也沒什麼關係啦這個是考試院跟人總他的命令嘛他要求公家機關說你要按照比例這比例還調整過欸在最早的時候是九成最早是九成啦"},{"start":385.035,"end":405.587,"text":"不是這樣有的很早以前你可以去問一下以前公務人員假等的比例最早有三分之一後來有三分之一以上到二分之一為原則後來就有不設限所以實務上變到九成以上就九成嘛又七成五嘛這樣太大鍋飯了所以又退回來五十為原則七十五為上限"},{"start":406.047,"end":428.516,"text":"但是這個比例所以這個第一個嘛你看烤雞到底要不要打甲打乙這跟油價一樣浮動啦這是用喊的啦不是看你表現好不好啦這本來就是一個人問題那現在如果願意改革那我看到人總的回應居然是說沒關係今年比去年多這還是用喊的啊理論上就是要把這個比例把它取消嘛"},{"start":428.976,"end":453.102,"text":"考機法就依考試院說法這個不是考機法 這個不是考機法這個母法裡面沒有規定說比例要多少對 母法沒有規定其實考試院跟人總願意做 一旨命令馬上就改了你一旨命令馬上就改了沒有法源啊 母法沒有這件事情我覺得每次都要講說這是法 這是法 然後好像說都沒修法沒有 你現在要做 你明天就可以改了"},{"start":453.806,"end":476.712,"text":"沒有錯啦 你願不願意做 林市長你願不願意做我講我要做什麼 因為剛剛有跟好幾位委員報告 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一個都沒有大家都安全回來這我們來瞭解一下因為剛剛這部長在答詢的時候有講或者是說我們前面不管是在新聞媒體或怎麼樣就很多人講也不是大家都用包機或等等的方式來處理不過是這樣子嗎 部長其他國家針對僑民的撤離跟當初在短時間內做的決策你有瞭解嗎"},{"start":85.85,"end":110.108,"text":"所謂專機 當然有用軍機 有用民航機看當地的情形我們的初步調查是在地的僑民是沒有這個需求 因為他們當然也比較有經驗可是旅行社帶的那些旅行團曾經在一段時間內因為要安置在那裡的時候我想交通部"},{"start":111.128,"end":133.708,"text":"跟觀光署 因為他們是直接掌握這個旅行社所以這個方面我們也跟他都很密切我知道 你要 我不會太為難你外交人員因為這本來就是第一個跨部會協調第二我們的這個國際處境本來就比較狹窄不過我還要舉幾個例子比如說日本就安排了先搭乘巴士從陸路轉到一個相對安全的地方然後有這個包機可以回來我們還順便 對不對"},{"start":135.729,"end":161.316,"text":"幫忙了我們國民 講到這些好事然後他們也準備軍用運輸機 以備所有的不時之需新加坡也一樣 11號撤離218米他一樣用包機的方式來做處理其中一半就留學生嘛 我剛剛有講留學生就是這樣那也都有這個 甚至都有軍事上的一些準備你總是要護航的嘛那美國也有撤僑班機法國是安排航班 紐西蘭政府也下令軍用飛機先預作準備"},{"start":162.596,"end":186.021,"text":"所以我講這件事情你總不能講說其他國家都沒有做所以我們也不做對不對這個在現在我們雖然階段性的任務已經完成了但你確定後面都不會有事大家安全無虞這個可不可以掛保證戰爭還在發生中所以我們也需要持續因應所以有關於包機以及可能的需求跟方式行政院有在評估因為這涉及跨部會"},{"start":190.062,"end":216.742,"text":"我想院裡面都會有整體評估之後的決定所以本期我沒有要求說你一定講我也要派軍機啊或者是我也要一定要做好應變的準備包括這個選項當然我希望第一個方法多元啦第二個如果其他國家做得到我們也要盡量做到啦我不是講現在就一定要做因為沒有需求不一定做得到要有這個準備一個方案有這個能力去執行如果需要的話那再來剛剛也有提到嘛就是有一些旅客到最後他是透過中國東方航空"},{"start":217.322,"end":234.874,"text":"回來那他顯然是透過中國大使館的協助我請教一下部長這幾位旅客或者是旅行社當初有沒有尋求我們外館的協助我是說這個資訊我們都有掌握然後他要透過哪裡去轉機我們先了解之後那些航班是有的就像也有中國人透過我們台灣來轉機的我有在聽所以我了解"},{"start":238.917,"end":257.666,"text":"所以他們有透過外交的這個就上海這個例子基本上並沒有說有什麼樣的爭論那因為盡快的讓當事人可以選擇他認為最好的方式離境我覺得這個是我們的共同目標所以部長可以基本上也是可以怎麼評價這個事我覺得這個轉機到任何地方去只要是從戰場離開我就覺得我們應該都要支持啊"},{"start":266.47,"end":290.315,"text":"我希望外交部這邊你至少要做一點事不要讓這些人受到非難因為你講的這很敏感就是大家考量什麼政治立場你要比照日本還表達感謝之意也太為難你們了這本席我不會強加於你但問題是有些人講認知作戰他會形成國安破口然後甚至側翼想要去攻擊我覺得至少我們國家可以確保這些人不要受非難因為外交部已經公開表態任何的方式只要能夠安全的迅速的有效的脫離"},{"start":291.755,"end":305.931,"text":"混亂回到台灣都應該要正面看待部長可以承諾這事嗎對在這地方公開承諾希望大家不要再針對這群人的非難趕快翻篇好不好因為每一個的處境都很特別啊當事人最在乎他的生命跟安全所以我們全力來協助他能夠"},{"start":306.752,"end":334.905,"text":"所以撤僑這件事有兩個提醒第一個因為戰事可能會延長後面可能會有需求改國委在這裡呼籲有一些國人可能這個時候不要再過去旅遊或者是轉機或者是萬一又戰爭又升高然後又困住了降低風險是一環嘛你該宣導要宣導但是做好準備嘛隨時對那邊的人隨時動態做掌握確保安全第二不管透過任何手段進來不要再讓政治的立場去干擾這個事情讓它可以順利秉持這樣的原則就好"},{"start":335.365,"end":349.909,"text":"另外花一點點時間跟部長探討一下國際局勢的一些變化最近美國川普總統的外交政策跟路線跟傳統的外交圈子裡面認知的其實有非常非常大的落差其中最重要的一點基本上就是國際組織的參與這個部長這個川普政府參與國際組織是積極的嗎"},{"start":355.834,"end":375.704,"text":"他自己在形成以他們的國家的這個為中心的國際的聯盟嘛 組織嘛當然也退出了一些組織 這對我們來講有挑戰也有機會OK 他退出了很多的組織 或者是用聚角會費啊 或者是消極參與等等的方式他其實是往後退嘛 大的方向來說他的參與率是下降的"},{"start":377.805,"end":391.159,"text":"那剛剛部長很好這是我正想問的問題啊這個美國在這個地方建區消極的這樣子的一個大環境下我們參與國際組織的策略啊要怎麼樣來做因應您剛剛講的所謂的機遇或者是挑戰分別是什麼您簡單說明一下"},{"start":392.299,"end":414.928,"text":"其實美國雖然推出一些國際組織他還在聯合國所以對於比如說聯合國2758號解釋他不但有更完整的他還發函各個這個使節團那另外就是說他在形成中的新的國際的組織或聯盟比如像細勝市這種供應鏈那當然跟半導體AI有關那我們就是變成裡面不可或缺的夥伴"},{"start":415.308,"end":435.101,"text":"那這個也是機會那至於說你說我們原來想積極爭取的一些國際組織那美國退出之後當然會有一定的影響所以我們也會跟G7其他國家在協商就是說是不是由他們這個比較有分量的國家也能夠來領先因為有時候要集體去洽或者是支持我們的時候的一些行動"},{"start":435.962,"end":462.037,"text":"好 這個剛好也是我要問因為美國雖然推出了很多國際組織但同時在2758號決議上面他做了非常強的政治的表態加大了一定的力道但本席想要問的是實質上他改變了什麼比如說以聯合國來講因為他對2758號全世界講這些東西不應該排除台灣有意義的參與國際組織的各種方式嘛 對不對那我們長期以來這不管誰在執政的時候大家都希望比如說國際刑警組織 對不對國際民航組織大家可以用實質參與的方式來做處理"},{"start":463.638,"end":490.328,"text":"那這段時間現在的進度如何?有沒有遇到狀況跟...委員提到聯合國昨天有四個組織是我們特別集中要爭取的嘛剛剛除了這個Akeo這個Akeo或Interpol以外那當然它退出的那個UNFCCC跟這個WHO所以我們在這兩個是不一樣的處理方法比如說以國際民航組織跟這個國際刑警組織其實沒有台灣世界是會有一個漏洞是啊 這大家都這樣說啊這個時候"},{"start":491.989,"end":517.162,"text":"我是覺得他們對我們支持的力道其實是有持續甚至增強甚至包括日本加拿大等那在這樣子的一個局面下面比如說我們還是要想辦法加入或是想辦法參與對不對國際刑警組織或民防組織也好你現在外交部的策略是怎麼樣正面突破因為我現在反正可能各個國家形成集團跟陣營所以我只要站在人多這邊我正面突破或者是我要迂迴的參與或者是因為怎麼樣都繞不過中國大陸的打壓"},{"start":517.662,"end":547.037,"text":"所以我乾脆死了這條心現在外交部打算用什麼樣的策略因素有一些輪值主席國是比較友善的國家啦比如說國際民航組織那日本他們擔任主席當然秘書處因為過去有一些是中共長年的經營他就掌控所以我們當然我們有道理是一回事但是涉及到投票或涉及到政治力的角力嘛這個時候我們的議程聚焦幾個國際組織我們也要有策略而不是說都是去call們結果都沒有進展"},{"start":548.057,"end":569.229,"text":"所以正面突破可能有一些困難另外我再跟委員補充比如說世界衛生組織我們今年有去因為那時候江啟臣副院長有希望說我們去辦智慧醫療展我們這個智慧醫療跟健康產業我想在那裡就形成會今年一起我們也期待如果委員們能夠到場去指導但是美國也在"},{"start":570.75,"end":589.267,"text":"也可能會形成新的這種跟世界衛生組織性質相近的組織的時候那我們也講嘛我們總是ready準備好我們也可以我覺得這個時候就是有時候就是挑戰有時候是機會就看我們也要做好各種準備"},{"start":590.428,"end":609.385,"text":"這部長有提到四大組織啦因為今天時間比較有限我還有最後一個問題你要四大組織的參與策略你會有提供一份報告好不好讓我們做長期的追蹤跟了解因為我們也希望有突破嘛如果任何哪怕你只是迂回參與我覺得都是在外交上都可以或多或少加分我講我沒有要求一定要突破或你要在多少時間內達成什麼目標這太為難你們我都非常清楚"},{"start":609.625,"end":624.947,"text":"然後最後一個問題就是剛剛部長有提到因為國際局勢的改變美國策略的改變很多時候它可能變成多邊轉雙邊比如說最近的河母之海峽的這個狀況顯然大家都想說這照理來講過去應該要共同"},{"start":625.587,"end":648.855,"text":"國際社會共同處理來確保海峽航路的暢通但為了沒辦法處理呢我想跟我剛剛提到的美國撤出國際組織降低參與你少了一個很大的平台啊少了一個協作的空間所以就變成美國要個別雙邊的去找各個國家來協調這件事情那顯然以現在的消息露出來講好像不是特別的順利大家對於這件事情是心態是比較保留的我覺得也合理啊"},{"start":649.355,"end":660.126,"text":"因為從外交角度大家以本國利益為優先的情況之下我幹嘛去擔負這樣子的一個高風險的這樣子的一個狀況呢所以這是一個大的問題但我要提醒部長而且這是預料問題當大家這個"},{"start":663.055,"end":690.752,"text":"外交的這個專業的人員做了共同的考慮所以不管是多邊跟雙邊這要暫時都陷入僵局走不通的時候有台灣內部竟然有一群人說我們要率先響應這樣的一個協議然後要派甚至要派武力等等去響應川普總統的說法然後認為這樣可以帶來新的外交突破部長從外交的專業來講或者是各位外交部的人員可以來做補充這樣的說法對台灣的安全也好或者是對國際利益來講是有幫助的嘛"},{"start":691.445,"end":718.139,"text":"外交是一定以自己的國家利益還有包括主權跟安全為出發點所以第一個美國也沒有邀請再來就是說我們的角色我們比較不是透過軍事方式我想台灣的外交走得出去跟我們整體我想比較不是在軍事方面的角色但是安全面"},{"start":719.159,"end":741.773,"text":"很多情報的交換 各種可能我想包括像你看俄羅斯戰爭對不對我們也是有一些我們可以做的事情那也是在確保我們國家的利益啊跟這個委員會所以因為美國沒有邀請然後也不太適合嘛 對不對其實部長我也不多為難你但你看我點了這個事情跟剛剛我講的因為那會捲入一個我們比較不能夠掌握的一個戰場啊"},{"start":747.076,"end":776.303,"text":"所以這部分也希望外交部適時的有一些比較合理的說法我常常講國防題目跟外交題目不要有太多政治的色彩去介入的時候他其實推動會比較順利專業才會比較被尊重外交就是多交朋友少找敵人對啊朋友多多敵人少少嘛對不對所以我想不管是剛剛我講撤僑的題目有一些人透過中國大陸的角度就不要讓他們受到非議跟責難或者是我講和睦之海有一些基於"},{"start":777.143,"end":792.699,"text":"這個短視的政治利益然後去搞煽動跟操作這時候外交部要適時的站在專業的立場以國家利益為優先因為涉及到能源我們確實是要很專注的做一些因應但是不能亂搞啦 好不好好 幾個事情提醒部長也謝謝部長詳細的回答 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"167723","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167723","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e5909caada9bfc75ddc9f861acbcf5e1501d6f5a3a5be601f8aad494a3f2fee8f525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:49:59 - 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劉秘書長還有施部長全序部一起上來 謝謝今天施部長很熱門很多的問題都要跟你請教好 謝謝三位首長好"},{"start":33.171,"end":48.156,"text":"我常常講一旦原住民自治成為一個目標那麼原住民的人才培育就相對非常的重要所以在教育部那邊其實我也常常提"},{"start":49.136,"end":69.861,"text":"我們稍早先前有的原專班我一直呼籲不要去亂開那果然不錯像現在面臨少子化之後我們發現很多的原專班都要關而且呢也沒有真的去培育出我們所需要原住民自治的各類人才"},{"start":70.581,"end":88.402,"text":"那我這邊就是希望說教育部他應該要有一個上位的思考要有一個架構要知道我們到底要培育出什麼樣的人才出來然後去結合大專院校他們好的科系來做培育那我今天來到這裡其實也是關心我們的公務人員"},{"start":91.425,"end":107.988,"text":"因為我們現在列冊的文官有6779人如果對應全國的公務員人數我們看到那個比例是1.8%那這個1.8%到底多還是不多我們去看一下原住民目前是來到62.9萬人對照全國的2328萬人目前原住民的比例已經來到2.7%"},{"start":118.57,"end":132.886,"text":"所以呢公務員佔比1.8到原住民人口比例2.7其實是有一個蠻大的空間要努力那如果說我們再細看一下我們發現我們原住民的這些文官啊"},{"start":133.567,"end":155.999,"text":"大多幾乎40%是落在去當警察那其他的部分有委任的 兼任的 還有檢任的那我們看一下那個比例我們看到 兼任呢他在所有原住民的比例當中雖然是35%可是他卻是全國兼任公務員的1.7%跟原住民的2.7%也有落差那如果談到檢任 那更慘"},{"start":162.583,"end":183.763,"text":"因為呢 就占全國檢任公務員的占比是0.6% 連1%都不到那這種狀況其實在警察系統也是一樣雖然原住民有很多人投入去當警察 可是我們看一下警監全國的警察就一個 也就是說三線的就那麼一個"},{"start":185.284,"end":197.489,"text":"所以這個是一個非常失衡的狀態那過去呢我也在內政部警政署那邊我也常常關心所以呢我們也希望原民會那邊多做努力例如給他們做補習那個特考讓他們能夠正式的成為警察那學校端呢我們也希望警專警大那個部分能夠去提高那個比例但是我很高興雖然警專警大"},{"start":211.195,"end":234.486,"text":"我們的比例呢從我來到立法院那時候是1.5%現在已經到3.5%可是我很高興真正也靠自己努力考進去的景專114年已經來到7.09% 7.1%所以我覺得原住民我們其實都很努力可是我們回頭看原住民的這個公務人員"},{"start":235.526,"end":251.795,"text":"以三等特考來講應該這是老生常談你們也都很了解你看我們的土木工程光是看土木工程這是多麼重要的公務人力因為很多原住民的鄉公所有時候連一個祭祀都沒有"},{"start":252.515,"end":260.757,"text":"根本就沒有這樣的鄉公所非常多可是你看喔那種災後重建特別預算的經費進來那是幾億幾十億的進來可是鄉公所他根本沒有能力去做這一些工程所以像土木工程三點特考"},{"start":270.36,"end":292.162,"text":"開圈35人已經算很少了 可是你看報名的40人 結果倒考的16人 最後錄取3個人我相信你們都比我更清楚 所以我們很希望說在這個部分 既然我剛剛講的我們有沒有可能針對公務人力的部分去結合教育部 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這樣而已"},{"start":303.994,"end":314.158,"text":"我替你很委屈的,外交部長,我替你委屈我知道很艱難啦捍衛我們的國格啊然後也是要注重我們雙方面對不對因為也是有很多來往的關係啊不艱難就不會找你當部長了啦當然艱難啦,大家也知道中華民國的外交到現在為止沒有哪一年是不困難的都非常困難來,我再問你盧秀燕市長"},{"start":332.506,"end":334.308,"text":"好 你很熟悉啦齁 日本啦你認識啦齁 認識啊"},{"start":338.688,"end":364.315,"text":"請問他去美國你有沒有幫助安排活動我們都是全力協助任何不管國會議員或是縣市首長這個對我們來講都是總和外交當然是外交但外交就不分黨派像我跟江啟臣副院長一起到了布拉格我們就在故宮文物展或他去不管是巴拉圭或現在去澳洲我們也都全力支持"},{"start":365.595,"end":371.604,"text":"立法院走出去就代表我們國家我聽說政府有些地方走不到 左榮台院長去日本看棒球你們有沒有幫忙我知道有沒有幫忙"},{"start":375.781,"end":380.502,"text":"蛤 有沒有幫忙我們外交部做 我們外交部該做的事啊所以有幫忙嘛所以不是 一定都會涉及待對嘛 當然啦這東西大家都 大家這東西就大概天窗說亮話他去了 你一定知道不知道的話 你可以下台第二個 你一定有幫忙沒有幫忙 你也可以下台這東西就是這樣"},{"start":396.267,"end":402.89,"text":"因為他定位在私人行程我們都不予評論嘛但是行政院長就算你外交部長24小時都是外交部長沒有說我今天去營養不是喔我今天去營養不是外交部長我叫林佳龍教授或者什麼的沒有那個事啦著弄待24小時"},{"start":419.537,"end":426.24,"text":"一年365天就是行政院長沒有什麼私人行程啦所以你一定要知道你一定要幫忙否則你就失職同意嗎 同意我的話同意就是因為日本叫你不要講所以你不要講啦所以委員講了嘿是啦 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因為他們有重大的節慶應該是死亡奔機40年 以及他們58歲的生日"},{"start":108.404,"end":123.529,"text":"所以斯瓦帝你有邀請 還有沒有其他的地方其他當然一般來講我們有一些比如說有新政府產生的國家或是因為他有來訪我們也是有要回訪 這些也都在評估的範圍"},{"start":124.309,"end":148.235,"text":"所以今年確實有受邀也在評估出訪的可能性那我們元首外交其實對台灣很重要我們特別困難所以透過元首外交有的是鞏固邦誼有的是做外交突破那有的是希望被看見那你估計今年我們元首外交的頻率會一次兩次三次或者不盡限於一次能回答就回答了"},{"start":149.062,"end":169.301,"text":"我們一般來講會朝兩次來做規劃當然也會因應情勢的發展來做調整所以我們樂見也希望今年的不管是國事出訪或元首外交能夠有好的消息接下來我們要看一些面對的狀況"},{"start":170.862,"end":198.254,"text":"在立陶宛的部分我們原來期待的是一個正骨牌效應也就是當時立陶宛設立台灣代表處那我們希望聯動不管是這個愛沙尼亞啦或者捷克啦其他國家能夠仿效讓台灣代表處能夠陸續成立那確實當時中國在歐洲尤其中東歐本來是他們有幾家幾那個很強勢的外交力量在那個狀態下"},{"start":199.454,"end":213.561,"text":"加上COVID-19的期間所以中國在這個Central Europe它確實是降下來了那現在目前我們觀察到的現象是立陶宛的總理盧錦尼涅呢他"},{"start":216.155,"end":240.657,"text":"認為設置台灣代表處是一個巨大錯誤那他們的前任總理呢也向中國提案要恢復中國跟立陶宛相關的互動跟關係那這是一個警訊因為這警訊除了我們原來期待的正骨牌效應沒有發生我擔心的是逆骨牌效應也就是設立台灣代表處被定義為一個巨大的錯誤"},{"start":242.011,"end":263.414,"text":"那接下來對我們在歐洲的外交工作不管是多瑙河沿岸九國啦或者其他國家要開展往前更進一步讓台灣被看見讓台灣被證明可能會遇到更大的困難我先請問立陶宛發生了什麼事情他會做出這樣的表述然後對於我們住處的更名目前立陶宛的態度是什麼"},{"start":264.612,"end":285.314,"text":"報告委員 雖然他們總理曾經有這樣的發言不過後來也有修正然後在他們總統老薩達出面召開國安會議之後也定了調有跟台灣的關係怎麼樣持續的來發展所以說他們要跟中國的關係那個也不是操之在立陶宛要看中國到底怎麼做"},{"start":285.854,"end":305.496,"text":"所以我覺得經過這樣的一個總統召集的國安會議之後啊我們也很清楚他們也是很肯定跟台灣的這個我們的這個社畜的關係就外交部的評估我們目前跟立陶宛的狀態包含住處的名稱編制是不會有影響不會有改變OK那"},{"start":306.497,"end":333.678,"text":"骨牌效應的部分因為2758號決議文事實上是對台灣非常重要的一個法律跟國際事件當中國濫用扭曲解釋2758號決議文作為一中原則或一中政策的基礎對外宣稱代表台灣2300萬人那個虛幻的幻影讓台灣參加不管是聯合國或相關的國際組織遭受阻礙我們跟各國建立正常的邦交關係呢也因為這樣子台灣已經被代表的假象"},{"start":335.36,"end":362.728,"text":"傷害了台灣幾十年那從澳洲開始到歐盟許多國家甚至於連義大利的外委會參議院的外委會到美國到加拿大主流的民主國家都說2758號決議文無關台灣這是一個在法國際法理上破除所謂的中國代表台灣一中原則一中政策非常重要的法律戰的一個我認為是一個勝利那這也是外交部長期很努力美國國務院也幫了很多的忙"},{"start":364.508,"end":386.093,"text":"在2758號決議文加上立陶宛的效應,原來我們期待是歐洲像愛沙尼亞、埃斯多尼亞也許我們可以設置一個台灣代表處或其他住處做一個證明目前愛沙尼亞的設處其實講了很久很久包含雙邊的合作互訪也相當多現在的諮商的階段進到哪裡"},{"start":387.149,"end":405.2,"text":"包括我們在他通過國會賦予的法源已經在進行施行細則那這施行細則會針對當然因為他是把台灣放在整個法案裡面就是某一類那我們實質上當然在周邊國家也都有一些涉處"},{"start":406.361,"end":429.22,"text":"我們的外交的這個地位跟特權還有豁免等這個都有在溝通中可是因為那個施行細則要完成我們才能夠正式的來提出這個方案這個Estonia他們的是用一個法律去框架不同的外交關係的定義所以設出那個法源細節出來就可以處理了"},{"start":429.941,"end":445.915,"text":"住處名稱呢住處名稱當然也都會交換意見在這個階段目前傾向是台北經貿或者是台灣因為對方在通過國會這個法案以及他們內閣的這個決定的時候其實他們是用台北"},{"start":446.556,"end":460.554,"text":"他是用台北 是所以目前是往台北辦事處做他們先前的這個就是用的希望如果台灣有設處是以台北那我們外交部的態度呢跟工作的方向呢"},{"start":461.161,"end":476.982,"text":"我們基本上就是建立實質的外交關係那有外交的這種代表性這是我們的目標那每一個國家也都會因應他的情況我想這個是就是不是單一的方案"},{"start":479.085,"end":505.404,"text":"外交部長在這邊不適合把我們底牌縮死啦但我們還是期待讓台灣2300萬人像我台南我就不是被台北代表的啊就是說我們還是希望能夠被看見被代表的名稱我們希望我們各位同仁繼續努力啦但是底牌當然實質的台灣的困難我們都知道困難的來源我們也知道所以往對的方向努力不代表輕鬆啦所以請你們繼續加油因為我移到巴拉圭"},{"start":506.064,"end":531.778,"text":"最近巴拉圭的用那個超級豪華的旅程邀請了巴拉圭的國會議員去中國訪問那確實也產生一些效應他們回巴拉圭之後這是我們在拉美唯一的邦交國在南美唯一的邦交國他也表達說建議要調整對台的相關關係那我們都曉得中國習慣性或者中國會把經貿當外交武器"},{"start":532.802,"end":557.541,"text":"中國也會把貪腐當作外交的機會跟外交的工具這是中國的習慣有時候中國答應要買你的白蝦像洪都拉斯跳票沒關係洪都拉斯的人民付出代價沒關係但是他掌握key man就好了那key man用什麼方式來掌握眾說紛雲所以有關巴拉圭的部分我們外交部目前評估狀態是怎麼樣"},{"start":560.046,"end":587.718,"text":"因為我們的前駐巴拉圭大使現在是拉美師長我待會請他簡單補充師長剛從那邊回來對對對中共對巴拉圭要挖我們牆角是不擇手段的他動用的資源那個是非常可怕可是為什麼今天台巴關係還是穩定啊包括貝尼亞總統包括他們國會因為他們要跟台灣合作是看到台灣發展模式所以在巴拉圭就是台灣模式對中國模式在拉美的一個對決"},{"start":588.96,"end":600.334,"text":"所以最近包括宏都拉斯他當然旁邊有瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯就是林邦所以我們跟對方比的不是比金錢或比霸權而我們比的是台灣的發展經驗的模式所以巴拉圭"},{"start":605.02,"end":620.036,"text":"我們現在做到榮邦計畫包括八個旗艦包括他的醫院有資訊系統智慧醫院是全拉美最好的我們在巴拉圭榮邦計畫坦白講做得相當不錯我有去拜訪那個Gustavo他現在是巴拉圭駐美國的大使"},{"start":620.396,"end":631.401,"text":"江啟臣副院長也有組團距跨黨派所以這個巴拉圭本身榮邦計畫是做得還不錯那中國挖我們牆角所以你們現在目前評估巴拉圭狀態還可以那他們的總統佩妮娜邁總統訪問的邀請還持續中嗎"},{"start":638.676,"end":651.407,"text":"當然我們也邀請他啦他來我相對看起來比較簡單啦那我們總統出訪比較起來要考慮比較多啦所以巴拉圭的邀請還存在"},{"start":653.255,"end":671.992,"text":"對,我們市長一直點頭嘛,黑村你團的嘛來來,讓我講講大使大使來那時候邀請的時候你還是大使嘛是,巴拉圭的貝納總統從上台以後就一直不斷的在公開或私下的場合表達希望賴總統有時間有機會能夠去訪問今年會安排嗎?"},{"start":674.661,"end":697.723,"text":"你這樣的笑容很燦爛我們隨時在準備啦但是實際是適當的時候那個有些要讓府方來宣布好啦謝謝我真的懂了啦我最後兩個問題第一個是史瓦帝尼的基礎建設因為他也跟非洲的開發銀行申請當然史瓦帝尼跟我們非常友好"},{"start":698.303,"end":723.31,"text":"那斯瓦帝尼還是會跟非洲銀行申請一些貸款、基建的計畫現在他的那個培克尼大壩的計畫申請到42億台幣的基建的融資結果飆到的是中國的公司用低價切到了因為我剛才還是講那句話中國會把經貿當外交工具、武器中國會把貪腐當作外交機會"},{"start":724.77,"end":740.285,"text":"就你們判斷斯瓦帝尼跟這一個培克尼大壩對我們有沒有什麼值得擔憂或關注的地方我是非常關注啦因為我這個這個當然是他們低價競標我關注就是說這個大壩有沒有發電"},{"start":741.306,"end":756.176,"text":"如果發電後續的營運可能中共就會進來那還好這個大壩是純粹是一個水壩它沒有發電再來就是我們現在在我們的龍幫計畫已經進入這個石瓦地你就暫備儲油槽"},{"start":757.997,"end":778.022,"text":"那個計畫更大所以我們也讓台灣的包括OIDC啦 OECC啦還有包括這個台灣世襲國會都進去所以其實也許那個BAR弄起來我們台灣來幫他弄發電也是一個方式啦後續我們都可以去接手但是他們的品質如果不好我們不敢接因為他們的BAR有時候會破洞"},{"start":779.862,"end":804.845,"text":"大波動是會垮掉的,那個...還沒有放啊,要賠償啊,包括要再...要挖多啦,對那個...那個會壞東西,我們不要問啦,但我最後提醒一句話目前南韓的部分,我們是採取不升級對應的方式處理,這是好的但我提醒外交部,還是要有些實質的處理方式因為韓國這種做法非常不禮貌那當然有網友說應該叫他南朝鮮,但我們未必要做到"},{"start":805.686,"end":819.957,"text":"跟他們一樣這樣失格的事情但是我要提醒說對韓國來講我們應該還有一些實質的工具但是採取外交不升高衝突的方式展現國格我個人是給予支持但這個事情應該要盡快有一個處理方向謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167720","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167720","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e598ffabacc482cbdae9f861acbcf5e1501d6f5a3a5be601f8af0c0b32b082070385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:35:13 - 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支部長跟考試院留秘書長請部長跟秘書長好委員長部長跟秘書長早這個考試院在2025年那因為大家都在反映這一個地方政府也就是二級政府跟中央政府之間那植物類等的一個落差"},{"start":34.434,"end":37.493,"text":"那造成說地方是留不住人才 背背吼"},{"start":37.97,"end":59.496,"text":"以嘉義為例我們地方政府的人才他同樣的一個工作我可以選擇我在阿館處我去我去林務署或者是我去交通部的這一些其他的一些部署單位同樣的工作但是職務列等是有落差的所以交通部事實上在去年2025年10月的時候通過地方機關職務的調整案那真的調整案也是想要平衡"},{"start":65.357,"end":85.128,"text":"中央跟地方的這個植物列等的差別而且希望可以在六都跟縣市他們所屬的這個機關調高非主管值的這個公務員的植物列等從7到8可以提升到8到9那如果是主管值的那甚至咧"},{"start":86.469,"end":88.87,"text":"這個制度已經通案下去就等於是各個縣市政府都可以這樣做"},{"start":108.479,"end":134.179,"text":"要等於是要提出那個修編那個編制表的一個東西送來我們這邊我們就很快就要合下去那細節上說到底有沒有送上來這個實務上的操作可能會後如果再跟我們報告所以縣市政府在分別送上來啊對對對這需要有這樣一個但是部長我之前也有跟您反應過嘛那事實上我們也聽到很多基層公務員的聲音就是說我們雖然這樣有一個調高但是我們知道你們現在公務員他如果要進入這一個"},{"start":136.601,"end":154.153,"text":"他如果從五到七他要進入到了這個八指等他必須要有一個條件也就是說在公務人員任用法第十七條第七項他必須要限縮他必須要碩士以上的學位那所以咧如果他現在就已經是主管然後他要進到八的話"},{"start":154.793,"end":170.548,"text":"他忽然間會卡到說我因為我還要先去取得學位然後我才能我才能繼續來當這個主管可是我們知道他要取得學位又有時間上的壓力表示說他會有一個如果空窗期這個空窗期讓他變成說他本來是主管他抓不到這個主管"},{"start":174.352,"end":180.895,"text":"這件事情是不會發生 因為他如果現在 我們有一個機制他如果現在沒有符合這個資格 還是繼續留用啦目前暫時先用這種方式來處理 所以不會有這個問題啦那剩下就是說 這樣規定喔 覺得合理啦那就是涉及修法 要不要討論修法的一個問題所以我也有準備要提案修法 我是覺得可以檢討這個啦"},{"start":201.663,"end":218.741,"text":"你現在擺這個碩士以上的一個學位事實上我覺得很多公務員他服務到了一定的年限比如說五年上去啦甚至服務到了七年他的經驗是豐富的喔他未必說他要回過頭說要碩士學位嘛這個我感覺上都有一點在綁住說"},{"start":220.823,"end":231.029,"text":"他的能力就一定要跟他的學位去把他綁在一起這件事我覺得是可以解答我可以公開的說我並不贊成用學歷來做這個事情我們看的是"},{"start":232.626,"end":261.164,"text":"這台是沒有啦平常嘛有一款的工作考試來表現所以這些有經驗的人一定要給一個學歷才能上去學歷並不代表他現場上的工作一定做得好不過當初立法一定有他的是啦 說是有他的想法嘛所以現在我覺得這可以檢討一下也剛好搭配我們剛好把植物列等也做一個調整我覺得可以檢討啦好 不然部長還有一個問題啦就是我們說植物列等的時候事實上它就會呈現出一個很大的問題就是說"},{"start":262.441,"end":280.076,"text":"在中央在中央這個層級跟地方的層級落差還是存在的那既然有這樣的一個落差存在我甚至我都覺得說尤其你要想說我們加以關我們又更麻煩如果你說六都它就是中央政府跟二級政府我們又有三級政府"},{"start":280.777,"end":291.6,"text":"那三級政府也有三級政府他的課長啊 他的公所的主祕啊他們也應該要有一定的一個成績 不然我們公所也有在說課長沒人要去做秘書啦我課長啊 秘書七頂啊 課長啊 有課長 課長 課長 課長 課長 課長 課長 課長"},{"start":301.223,"end":321.018,"text":"秘書被訂啦,客訂可以交訂嘛,對不對?客訂7到8啦7到8啦,所以就沒人要去做秘書啦,因為秘書要觀看嘛啊我這客訂我做好好好啊,因為我港款都8而已啊港款是8上限啦對,那如果說你要調整公所的上限,把它上去說那是不是秘書要稍微久,也可以再"},{"start":321.798,"end":350.327,"text":"高一點的話 哇 又卡到說那跟縣政府之間又有漢格的存在這樣起來 我沒有人要來管政府啊所以大家都要在機場 我沒有人要來管政府又有這個漢格的存在所以這個問題咧我都主張說現在以14級的植物劣等來說事實上含性不夠剛有可能我們就來研議一套而且大家也有講到公務員的薪資是台灣可以來重新檢討的那有沒有可能發展到15級的植物劣等咧"},{"start":351.327,"end":372.873,"text":"我跟委員報告 行家啦 你剛才說的都是我們在不斷這個我們就一直跟著這個事情 因為我們這裡有三級政府嘛三級政府有公所的公務員會跟縣府的公務員會卡住然後縣府的公務員又跟中央的又卡住啊一陣打一陣啦一陣打一陣嘛 這十四就看起來就是沒用嘛這個是一個議題 上次委員大家"},{"start":378.375,"end":392.314,"text":"這個到辦公室聊天的時候也談到這個事情那我覺得這是一個議題是可以好好來想想說好我拿出來給部長你們講一下再來第一基層的公務員他們都覺得打擊他們信心最大的就是在用"},{"start":393.444,"end":406.931,"text":"這個烤雞齁那當時在90年的時候那因為有一個當年全序部的一個遷函齁他是取代法制化然後他就直接把他說喔這個夾等的把他限制在75%"},{"start":408.872,"end":413.654,"text":"假凍75%這件事 我譬如我們今年我們台湾登規辦得這麼好辦得這麼好 全國都餓了 而且創造這麼多的山積1360萬的旅客來 而且還創造300多億的交通產值這教育我做主管 我們文管局全部都要打架了"},{"start":433.53,"end":452.291,"text":"所以全部就 啊就表現真的好欸啊 挖土 也是一樣的拔一隻喔 一樣拔一隻所以這個會影響到基層公務員的戰鬥力跟他們的那個啊士氣啊我覺得這個東西挖土來 大家來檢討一下有啦 挖土剛好在今天的場合裡面已經講過很多次就是說我們確實呢 已經提"},{"start":453.211,"end":459.075,"text":"想好一個新的制度會把大家比較過去長期的一些狀況做一個徹底的一個討論跟解決可能順利的話應該會這個會期以這個會期的目標上來立法院然後我們重新修法"},{"start":469.722,"end":491.888,"text":"我會處理這個事情啦因為我看這次我們嘉義縣政府辦台灣燈會你看我們的衛生局表現那麼好整個台灣燈會的現場這麼清晰那是投入很多志工然後大家很多公務員大家都是陸力以赴啊像這個我覺得哇 你還要分公四分之三有多少 四分之一沒有那四分之一要怎麼三十五 那很難過啦"},{"start":492.628,"end":499.371,"text":"我知道,主管也辛苦啦主管也辛苦,對公務員的士氣也不好啦就真的今年這樣就表現一度贊得不到應該要有的榮耀我是覺得這可以檢討一下好不好好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17286","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17286","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d8ecfe646390efd90f972e27c5d9f23dd157d0edf07c12ea683bf45374b045af15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-03-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-03-19T08:35:19+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-19T13:09:59+08:00","duration":16480,"影片長度":"04:34:40","委員發言時間":"08:35:19 - 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許秘書長"},{"start":1847.386,"end":1853.848,"text":"本日會議邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況並被質詢現在請林部長上台報告主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早安感謝貴委員會邀請本人前來進行外交業務報告並被質詢書面報告請參閱 以下就重點說明"},{"start":1877.974,"end":1895.593,"text":"自我上任669天以來也見證了國際局勢的動盪中國不斷打壓台灣國際空間我國面臨嚴峻的外部挑戰但在國人和政府的努力之下我們仍然繳出了一張"},{"start":1897.757,"end":1918.764,"text":"這上面寫亮眼 及格的外交成績單首先我要感謝大院各位委員對外交工作的支持並協助推動國會外交近兩年來大院委員約有300人次130多團赴美日等30多國"},{"start":1919.904,"end":1947.844,"text":"聘外交包括去年9月韓院長率團訪問日本11月江副院長率團訪問巴拉圭美國等協助拓展台灣的外交空間令人欽佩本年也率領外交同仁兢兢業業全力推動各項工作迄今總和外交已經取得了一些成果其中包括我們有效的故邦 榮邦"},{"start":1949.352,"end":1962.619,"text":"除了維繫12個邦交國的關係之外我們也正逐步落實龍幫八大旗艦計畫而元首外交的成果也顯著外交部也在積極規劃總統適當時機再度出訪"},{"start":1966.141,"end":1979.949,"text":"那我們也讓世界走進台灣讓台灣走向世界自賴總統上任以來外交部已經接待超過730個訪團7200位外賓也見證國際挺台力量升溫除了賴總統訪問太平洋三友邦蕭副總統順利出訪歐洲本人也已經走訪超過20個國家"},{"start":1991.775,"end":2016.414,"text":"足跡遍及六大洲也深刻感受到國際友人對台灣的支持和溫暖我們也讓世界關注台海安全支持台灣近兩年來有高達122則來自友邦和友盟國家的聲明肯定台海和平穩定的重要性美國去年12月公布的國家安全戰略也強調台灣的重要性"},{"start":2017.415,"end":2040.168,"text":"另外本部每年舉辦玉山論壇和凱達格蘭論壇兩大主場國際論壇也增進國際對台海安全及台灣重要性的了解成效顯著我們尤其重視外交政策要符合多數民意的期待讓國能能夠有感而近兩年來本部委外所做的四次民意調查"},{"start":2041.243,"end":2067.611,"text":"也都顯示有過半數受訪國人對政府外交整體的表現滿意超過七成支持總和外交超過六成支持榮邦計畫這對外交同仁是很大的鼓舞此外本部也持續精進簡正便民的服務近兩年來全球外館處理超過一萬三千件旅外國人急難救助案幫助超過一萬八千人"},{"start":2068.311,"end":2083.968,"text":"但是去年一年就發行超過230萬本護照我們也鼓勵我國籍的航空公司徵聘了美國德州、亞利桑那州以及華盛頓特區的直航的航線"},{"start":2085.253,"end":2106.846,"text":"那麼也持續在開拓歐洲的航點包括增加航班那另外也反映了這個國人的這個經貿還有觀光旅遊的實力那在文萊泰國菲律賓也提供了我國的免簽的待遇再展現"},{"start":2107.646,"end":2131.293,"text":"我們本部簡正辨明工作的一些成果眾所周知當前我國仍然面臨非常多的外部挑戰本部會會持續的密切關注相關情勢發展並妥為因應而這些挑戰主要包括以下幾點首先是全球地緣衝突加劇台灣戰略重要性與日俱增"},{"start":2132.554,"end":2146.855,"text":"烏厄戰爭已經超過四年中東南海等地的情勢動盪尤其上個月底中東地區再度爆發戰事本部和相關外管這二十多天來都全力應變確保國人安全包括已經協助"},{"start":2148.497,"end":2175.584,"text":"兩千四百位以上的國人平安反抵台灣其次呢台灣的經貿充滿變數全球的經貿充滿變數世界也更需要台灣面對全球政經變局台灣會繼續發揮在經貿科技等領域的能量加深與美國和其他理念相近夥伴的合作及鏈結讓台灣成為最值得信賴的夥伴也讓世界更需要台灣"},{"start":2176.784,"end":2202.218,"text":"另外中國始終是我國外部最大的威脅而且這個威脅日增但是維持台海和平穩定已經是國際社會的共識中國近來全面推進企圖把民主台灣變成中國台灣的行動透過混合戰的方式扭曲聯大第2758號決議甚至對我國人跨國鎮壓的手段來加以對我們的施壓"},{"start":2202.978,"end":2219.37,"text":"那對於我國以及區域和全球的和平穩定都構成重大的威脅然而台海和平穩定攸關全球繁榮已成為國際社會的高度共識外交部會與民主夥伴加強合作密切關注並因應中國在海外的相關動態持續捍衛我國國家主權"},{"start":2222.412,"end":2247.065,"text":"尊嚴與利益那麼今天呢我們的外交政策在總和外交的一個整體的指導之下已經也達成了一些預期的成果其中也有一些創新與突破之舉僅僅要說明如此第一 榮邦計畫與協作聯隊榮邦計畫已經取得許多項的重要成果那請參閱書面的報告至於在協作聯隊方面"},{"start":2250.867,"end":2267.959,"text":"除了成立行政院經濟外交工作小組進行經濟外交佈局外交部目前已經和經濟部等10個部會建立雙部長的會議機制而整合各部會的資源發揮Team of Teams也就是聯合艦隊的一個力量"},{"start":2269.277,"end":2285.731,"text":"再來台美關係穩健增進台美深化安全夥伴關係如川普總統上任迄今已兩度宣布對台軍售台美也擴大經貿共生夥伴關係本年雙方已完成簽署台美ART及投資合作備忘錄"},{"start":2287.152,"end":2307.854,"text":"美國國會跨黨派持續以訪台、立法等具體行動挺台,美國也持續支持台灣拓展國際參與,尤其美方已多次公開反駁中國對聯大2758號決議的錯誤解釋。此外,台美也在國際合作、教育交流及地方互動等領域成果豐碩,各項成果也請參閱書面報告。"},{"start":2309.716,"end":2332.358,"text":"那麼在第三方面是有關於台日關係相當的密切跟友好日本政府已經多次公開重申維持台海和平穩定的重要性展現高度重視台日友好關係的一貫立場而日本國會議員若意訪台高層交流頻繁我們因日方的邀請也循大阪勢博的模式參與2027年"},{"start":2334.439,"end":2357.844,"text":"明年的這個橫濱園藝博覽會那麼也請國人拭目以待那麼2025年台日雙方互訪突破821萬人次展現台日深厚的情誼那麼第四點是在台歐關係方面也屢創新局肖副總統在就任前後二度訪歐也創我國副元首在歐洲議會演說的首例"},{"start":2358.845,"end":2366.341,"text":"陳前副總統以總統特使身份惡訪教廷展現台泛身後的情誼而本人也適度"},{"start":2368.576,"end":2395.817,"text":"問歐洲國家首度獲邀在華沙安全論壇演說寫下我國外長與會的心願另一方面歐洲政要訪台的交流刷新記錄單單去年我們推動台灣文化年也開拓了外交的新空間此外台灣與理念相近國家合作人道援助烏克蘭也受到國際友人的讚揚那麼第五方面是總和外交展現新樣貌"},{"start":2397.558,"end":2415.429,"text":"國會會今年邁向30週年組織改革也啟動了轉型提升政府發展援助的海外影響力而無人機外交小組開拓台灣自主防衛與國際合作的新局那麼外交部也推動設立實體的台灣Ingo中心"},{"start":2416.129,"end":2431.19,"text":"那麼增強全球社群的鏈接我們也開闢了四大領域14個面向的多元外交其中我們以國會外交突破威權封鎖連結民主友盟以台灣科技和資安的優勢深化與友方"},{"start":2432.302,"end":2451.511,"text":"資安外交那更以青年外交來展現台灣的軟實力擴大台灣實質國際的影響力第六點是因應中國對台法律戰那麼經過近兩年的努力推動今天已經有13個國家的行政部門與歐盟以及15個國家的立法部門包括歐洲議會"},{"start":2452.651,"end":2464.694,"text":"那麼和IPEC這個跨國的這個中國的這個政策的一個這個聯盟公開駁斥中國錯誤詮釋聯大第2758號決議研劇中國內政化台灣議題我們也積極拓展國際參與包括透過IPEC擴大台灣影響力去年中國作為IPEC"},{"start":2475.157,"end":2502.81,"text":"本年中國作為APEC的主辦方我們也積極的參與那麼不因中國的主辦而改變本年也在各市場合運用創新的論述突破中國的法律戰強調台灣主權屬於台灣人民反制中國對台法律戰的決心那麼展望未來外交部將在既有的基礎上持續推進總和外交的各項工作同時結合國內各方力量團結國外的民主夥伴"},{"start":2503.53,"end":2530.883,"text":"捍衛自由民主價值 拓展國際空間也為區域與全球的和平穩定和繁榮做出積極的貢獻最後再次感謝貴委員會對本部的支持和協助也請對本年外交部的預算給予鼎力支持那我也最後以今年馬年我們的春聯此審還雨 龍中馬祭作為祝福 期許和承諾期待在新的一年 台灣外交會更強更好"},{"start":2531.503,"end":2534.586,"text":"與世界做朋友以上敬請視角謝謝好 謝謝我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":2567.671,"end":2570.014,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們請林部長請林部長部長早"},{"start":2579.375,"end":2608.935,"text":"委員長部長我想我先以這個非洲地區相關友邦的這些國家來先跟部長您做一個討論那之前也曾經請教過部長那這個南非自從從2024年開始打壓我們住處從去年的7月份更直接來發布公告直接要把我們的住處改為辦事處那後續我們也看到政府將原先採取這個晶片出口管制的"},{"start":2610.095,"end":2624.222,"text":"這個方式來做反制但是南非政府有請我們請求我們這邊來進行協商那我們也同意暫緩來做這一項的管制那近期包括當地的這個台橋也對這件事情感到非常的憂慮甚至在"},{"start":2624.773,"end":2648.471,"text":"南非的這個國會議員也認為雙方關係務實且互利那不應該因為短期地緣政治考量而被這個犧牲而最近的這個消息來看外交部希望雙方能夠進行實質的這個協商那我想請教部長目前我們雙方協商的一個進度到底到哪裡那能不能保住我們"},{"start":2649.371,"end":2667.476,"text":"在首都的代表處是 報告委員首先我們駐南非的代表處還是都在原地運作就他們首都Pretoria至於說他們在交涉中有給我們一個版本可以怎麼樣談我們也就時間先前因為他們要召開G20"},{"start":2669.016,"end":2690.694,"text":"那有延後那現在也還在交涉當中就什麼去談的方式啊也建在談之中所以目前我們實質上在南非的這個代表處還有這個包括在開普敦的我們的辦事處啊都還是如常的運作好那這個中國的這個"},{"start":2692.569,"end":2707.371,"text":"壓力不斷的施壓在另一篇報導當中我們看到南非我們的廖大使也表示在這種壓力與日俱增之下並且當局的局勢不但是造成不穩定感"},{"start":2708.092,"end":2729.12,"text":"那更帶來挫敗感那我們在南非住處面臨如此困境之下我們還是希望有理念相近的這些友人能夠來協助我們那我想請教部長在這種情況之下我們有沒有爭取到相關有某國家或是南非國內的相關政要給予我們一定的支持"},{"start":2730.26,"end":2734.741,"text":"報告委員我們外交處境艱困是越戰越有不會有什麼挫敗感我們捍衛我們國家的主權跟利益依然還是在世界上立足當然也是因為有很多的國際友人的相助比如說包括美日 G7 等等"},{"start":2752.445,"end":2773.311,"text":"他們也都去幫我們跟南非政府反應希望能夠不要去變更我們其實是台灣跟南非之間是建立在當時曼德拉政府的時候簽署的一個雙邊的這個有關於社畜的協議那裡都有具體的法律的效力跟依據的"},{"start":2774.711,"end":2783.854,"text":"另外就是其實現在南非的ANC的政府是聯合政府他們聯合政府其他的政黨也都反對ANC的這種做法"},{"start":2784.403,"end":2809.44,"text":"那就是因為我想他們的執政黨NC跟他們的外交部做了這些決定其實在國會也沒有得到一定的支持那尤其民間的輿論這個很影響到台灣跟南非關係他們也是表達關切所以我想得到者多助我們也是廣泛的去結合各界的力量"},{"start":2810.06,"end":2828.5,"text":"那我想南非政府他現在也感受到那這個要幫我們就是說降級然後簽署然後包括改名事實上是他們的就是說單方面的意見我們並不同意而且我們會持續交涉來捍衛我們應有的權利"},{"start":2830.902,"end":2853.06,"text":"好 那部長我們在非洲另外一個友邦史瓦帝尼近期因為這個發函邀請我們賴總統能夠去訪問那也受到大家的關注那我們也當然也希望說我們總統可以順利的出訪那相關的這個評論內容也有帶我們這個外交部跟總統府來做一個適當的說明那針對這個中國試圖要透過"},{"start":2856.066,"end":2884.097,"text":"這個投資的方式來挖我們的牆角譬如在去年八月份他曾經標下這個斯瓦地尼的一個水壩計畫那有沒有可能會造成什麼樣的影響還是我們在長期經營雙邊關係還有包括我們投資的這個台灣產業創新園區的各項榮邦計畫政策之下其實會更有這個優勢那針對這個部分部長您的看法"},{"start":2884.879,"end":2899.515,"text":"是 報告委員 當然中國善於用這個所謂大型工程去滲透甚至去影響當地的國家的政府"},{"start":2899.963,"end":2922.448,"text":"那斐克尼大壩呢這個案子是屬於非洲開發銀行的一個融資的一個案子那中國當然去蓋它低價競標那也引進了一些中國的功能也造成了一些問題所以我們密切的關注那至於我們的跟斯瓦爾丁尼的這個我們的合作模式像我們對於戰備儲油槽"},{"start":2924.408,"end":2940.126,"text":"這樣的一個他們史國最大的一個國家重大工程的建設得到各界的好評這個就是一個很好的對比所以史國跟我們的邦交還是相當的穩固那我們也有一些創新的做法特別是農邦計畫"},{"start":2941.167,"end":2955.483,"text":"那我在去年四月以總統特使身份去訪問史瓦帝尼那也跟史王就後續的農幫計畫的推動除了我們現在做的很好的醫療、外交、農業還有這些數位治理我們對於引進產業"},{"start":2958.065,"end":2973.819,"text":"創造就業是他們當地國最重視的那台灣有很好的經驗所以有關於台灣這個產業創新園區那目前也有相當多企業有興趣這裡面也涉及到他的投資環境相對是比較好除了資安穩定以外他跟美國"},{"start":2974.54,"end":2997.422,"text":"包括有一些比較最低的關稅18%它還是阿哥亞非洲成長這個機會法案最重要的受惠國所以在非洲一些投資的台商現在也想群聚在史瓦帝尼那其他的國家也希望說加強對史國的投資所以這個也就是我們的經濟外交在發揮一定的一個效果"},{"start":2998.163,"end":3017.941,"text":"好 謝謝部長另外我們台灣和索馬利蘭在2020年互設代表處以來我們積極地爭取雙方的認同雖然在去年4月份的時候我們也曾經因為中國的施壓導致我們護照無法在索馬利蘭進出"},{"start":3020.303,"end":3034.137,"text":"首先這個問題在多方的努力之下也獲得解決而去年以色列宣布承認索馬利蘭為主權國家雙方建交成為第一個對索馬利蘭地位表態的聯合國會員國"},{"start":3036.099,"end":3058.205,"text":"那對於東非和中東區域的一個戰略佈局產生了很大的一個影響那我想多年來索馬利蘭推動有關的農業醫療還有資安等多項合作甚至在去年我們七月的時候還協助他們開通了一條台灣大道那接下來如何提升我們雙方支持的關係"},{"start":3058.925,"end":3082.907,"text":"是 包括委員 確實台灣跟索馬利蘭都是民主國家其實它民主選舉已經有將近30年 是尤其在最近的總統選舉得到各界的肯定我們也積極在協助那它的制度跟能力建構我們當然除了這個基礎建設剛剛提到的我想包括道路啦或者是這一些像包括醫療"},{"start":3084.128,"end":3104.588,"text":"還有這個教育方面我們也積極的協助其實它有在地緣政治上它是鴻海啊可以說這個區域裡面重要的這個航行安全所以我們也在海巡方面有簽訂合作的一個這個協議那另外呢對於他們開採礦產"},{"start":3106.249,"end":3134.021,"text":"他們也有很多的關鍵礦物我們也有參與評估投資所以剛好現在國際情勢特別是地緣政治的變化美國對於索馬利蘭像我們台灣在那邊的關係他們也都很重視那以色列當然基於雙邊他們的利益他們正式的建交互設大使館我們在那邊的代表處事實上已經就是實質上就是"},{"start":3135.201,"end":3155.397,"text":"發揮的功能可以說就是大使館的功能所以我們在這個基礎上就台灣跟索馬利蘭雙邊的外交關係進一步的發展正在密切的諮商當中那我們當然也會協調、溝通這些友盟包括美國、以色列等等大家一起能夠來協助索馬利蘭它的一個發展那部長有沒有可能會再提升到建交的可能性"},{"start":3163.274,"end":3190.619,"text":"我們都是穩健的在推動最近中東在戰爭也是一個很關鍵的時刻所以我們事實上發揮的功能就是其實雙邊是幾乎是甚至比有些邦交國都還要更緊密的關係那有關於就是所謂的不管是正式的建交或設大使館那這個當然是秉持雙方面的這個"},{"start":3193.157,"end":3219.978,"text":"基本的我們講都有在討論但是我們也會因應整個國際情勢的變化來做推展好 謝謝部長也期待我們許多這些外交的工作還有我們榮邦的這些課題能夠在我們外交部努力之下來深化與理念相近的這些國家做更密切的一個連結"},{"start":3220.999,"end":3241.134,"text":"以提升我們跟這些國家能夠有更密切的一個合作關係也讓台灣可以在世界每一個國家認同之下來提升我們的國際地位謝謝部長 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員關心非洲的關係台灣跟非洲有一個很大發展的空間我們會用總和外交來積極推動 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3256.169,"end":3257.092,"text":"謝謝主席有請林部長"},{"start":3265.396,"end":3290.101,"text":"委員長部長早安部長卓榮泰院長在這個月7號以私任行程到日本為世界棒球經典賽的台灣隊選手來做加油那這是在1972年以後台日斷交後第一位到日本去的現任行政首長那部長你認為在台日外交上面是不是有一個很重大的意義甚至是一個突破"},{"start":3290.641,"end":3312.108,"text":"那是不是表示說台日高層往後的互動空間會比以前更加的有彈性那我們要如何把握這一次的機會進一步轉化成未來更加穩定更加紮實的台日交流的這個成果請問部長對這個卓院長這次到日本去您的看法如何台日關係會不會比過去更加有彈性"},{"start":3313.493,"end":3335.978,"text":"包委員台日關係不但是友好而且持續在發展的更好那我想對於高層的出訪不管是以什麼名義我想這在外交上都是有意義的當然因為台灣的外交處境也很艱難很特別所以我們都要兼顧到他可能的一些衝擊"},{"start":3337.518,"end":3361.067,"text":"但是像我個人也到過東京在去年舉辦這個大阪世博的時候那也很自然的會有一些跟我想對台日關係來講最主要是要看我們做什麼不是看我們說什麼那所以我想告訴小苗政府他們的這個"},{"start":3364.128,"end":3384.043,"text":"要表達他們有看到我們卓院長對外的說明所謂的私人行程但是我想對於像公眾人物尤其是國家的高層的官員我想他都一定有他的一個政治上的影響"},{"start":3386.385,"end":3411.182,"text":"可是這不是我們去用說的因為我們已經用行動走出去那日本也是一個民主的國家是一個自由旅行的社會我們也跟他都有免簽等等所以是在這樣的一個法制的基礎上我們就是積極的去促進台日的交流合作所以這個當然也是都在這樣一個大的趨勢之下在發展的"},{"start":3415.543,"end":3439.181,"text":"其實卓院長這次到日本去不管是說針對這個為我們的台灣隊加油或是是在外交上面的這個突破理應來講國人應該是要予以肯定可是很可惜的我們看到很多在野黨在枝枝結結上面呢挑毛病正是非常的不可取就像之前蕭美琴副總統在歐洲議會的這個演說其實這個也是一個非常大的"},{"start":3444.746,"end":3460.996,"text":"我們知道說外交部在這方面盡了很大的這個努力很難得我們現任的副元首可以在歐洲議會這邊來做這個演說這也是首例像這種外交上面上的突破國人都應該予以支持"},{"start":3462.097,"end":3468.62,"text":"而不是在很多地方挑毛病這是讓本席覺得我想很多國人很遺憾的這個地方畢竟這是很難得的一個外交突破好 那再來我想請問最近我有看到有很多有關於洪都拉斯想要跟台灣復交的這個消息那洪都拉斯的這個總統阿斯普拉總統在去年競選的時候"},{"start":3486.727,"end":3503.245,"text":"他就曾經說過 紅國和台灣有邦交的時候 情況是比現在好百倍那承諾當選之後呢 將要跟台灣來做互交然後這個月初呢 我也看到跟阿斯普拉同屬於國家黨的國民意義"},{"start":3506.028,"end":3530.811,"text":"的議長Zambrano他也曾經表示跟中國建交三年毫無成效那對這個國家的這個經濟呢更是一大打擊因為中國當初的承諾不但沒有兌現而且呢還造成嚴重的這個貿易的失衡像出口下降尤其他們這個白蝦白蝦真的是他們我在想這次讓他們非常"},{"start":3532.192,"end":3557.335,"text":"沒有難以想像的一個地方居然跟台灣斷交之後這個養殖蝦產業居然受到這麼大的這個衝擊那甚至呢造成這個貿易逆差是不斷的這個擴張所以呢宏國現在可以說是苦不堪言然後一再的說要跟台灣來做互交所以我想請教部長我們這個青台的宏都拉斯的阿斯夫拉總統已經上任了"},{"start":3559.256,"end":3583.814,"text":"那這幾個月來到底他們有沒有跟我們做接洽有沒有洽談到底後續有沒有這個復交的可能請問部長報告委員我們跟洪都拉斯包括中美洲各國即使我們沒有邦交關係也都有一些互動那特別是洪都拉斯阿斯普拉總統跟我們過去也有一定的認識所以從他競選期間的主張說要"},{"start":3584.975,"end":3606.67,"text":"恢復跟台灣的邦交我們都非常的重視那也有一定的溝通那當然什麼樣的時間方式對於洪都拉斯最好的一個決定我們是以開放的態度那但是我想台灣過去因為他才跟我們斷交三年嘛我們過去在做有點既定的成果所以得到他們國人的支持"},{"start":3607.31,"end":3631.059,"text":"那至於說未來進一步的發展我想包括現在的地緣政治上包括川普政府他們的西半球政策我想對於整個中美洲地區有一定的影響那最重要是我們推動總和外交特別榮邦計畫他們也看到包括在他們林邦在瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯做的而阿斯普拉總統他有的競選政見最重要就是醫療教育跟創造就業的機會"},{"start":3632.259,"end":3655.186,"text":"那台灣這個方式是台灣模式相對於中國的模式他們用一帶一路然後大量的傾銷然後控制他們的一些基礎建設那導致很多的貪汙腐化這個後遺症是很大的所以我想很多人已經有基本的認識那對於宏都拉斯至於他要去可能要面對也要有一些內外的一個情勢的評估比如說你如果像華為"},{"start":3656.526,"end":3669.19,"text":"華為已經滲透進去很多國家之後這裡面操控他們的資訊或者一種所謂的政商勾結等等這個當然也會衝擊啦所以怎麼樣我想我們是密切的關注也維持聯繫也尊重對方在適當的一個時機做出決定"},{"start":3682.074,"end":3707.429,"text":"所以我們這邊我們台灣這裡的態度是如果是說南斯拉夫這邊有意要跟我們做互交我們也是樂觀其成嗎不只樂觀其成我們是有一定的期待但是我們因為外交是要雙方面基於目前都還沒有對方都還沒有跟我們洽談這個部分我們當然是有溝通我意思說我們現在外交不是說我好像"},{"start":3708.309,"end":3729.04,"text":"就是為了要去建交或者是這種關係因為那會流於可能會變成在競標那我們就是不走金錢外交的路以我們台灣模式讓他們具體去了解說這個對他國家發展的意義比如說最近我們辦玉山論壇也跟智慧城市展一起"},{"start":3729.64,"end":3759.12,"text":"所以像昨天聖文森的副總理去年也是選舉政黨人體他組團來台灣之後就去看了智慧城市展他說這個是我們國家要的我們的國力是呈現在我們台灣各方面不是只有我們政府的預算當然我們的預算也要拜託因為我們的榮邦計畫很多新興計畫都還沒有立法院通過我們要啟動會有點困難所以要再次懇求大會的支持"},{"start":3759.92,"end":3763.063,"text":"謝謝部長 因為部長之前你也曾經接受某一個電視訪談你有曾經提到說其實現在有很多的國家其實很願意跟台灣來進行實質的外交當然我們也有看到世界各國其實也陸陸續續對台灣的慈禧釋出了善意"},{"start":3779.854,"end":3782.015,"text":"像例如說像中國之前長期來扭曲這個聯合國2758號的這個決議像這個英國國會也好或是說捷克的眾議院、比利時眾議院、歐盟議會等等其實都已經做成了這個決議指明就是2758號其實它是沒有涉及台灣地位這個問題"},{"start":3798.502,"end":3814.935,"text":"所以我們可以看到就是歐洲各國其實最近已經形成一個反制中國論述壟斷的類似一個陣線那像今年初美國也再次的聲明就是說反對以武力威脅或脅迫改變台海的這個現狀日本也好 加拿大 韓國 法國等等這些國家"},{"start":3815.655,"end":3833.431,"text":"都在今年初呢都公開的聲明說台海和平穩定的是他們共同關切的這個事項那其實今天我有在這個你們的專報裡面有發現就是有看到你們有一段文字因為時間的關係可能部長你這個部分沒有提到為什麼這些國家會這麼重視台灣目前的這個這個國際地位台海這個和平喔因為"},{"start":3838.215,"end":3842.156,"text":"因為你們專報自己就有提到台灣身處國際供應鏈的樞紐而且全球有九成的先進晶片是在台灣製造的我們幾乎是支撐了全球的半導體的供應鏈再來還有台灣海峽世界上其實有五成的世界貨運其實都是要經由台灣海峽來通行"},{"start":3861.483,"end":3887.345,"text":"所以這個台海的和平對這些國家來講其實是非常重要的那現在很多國家都看到台灣的這個價值所以部長想請問這是台灣最好的時候嗎我跟委員補充一下以前我們在講台灣的重要性之外我們現在在講台灣可以跟對方創造什麼價值那27582其實為什麼重要是因為中共發動法律戰"},{"start":3888.406,"end":3911.642,"text":"如果台灣是中國的話 那我們所有的東西我們就沒有主權就沒有產權嘛 也不會有人權所以其實一開始有些國家像歐洲國家他們對2758決議的解釋文 他們感覺這有什麼重要可是你看美國的國務院正式的試點立場的說明而且特別又提到台灣是可以貢獻國際的那在這種情況之下 大家才意識到這是中共的法律戰"},{"start":3912.883,"end":3938.848,"text":"也就是他從去年三個八十年的所謂的這種論述啊到一支2758的決定到現在在要求一些中國的他們的這些受他們影響的所謂全球南方的國家為什麼在我們有一些名稱上面或是用像像比如這個這個路徑電磁卡電磁化之後這麼重要的其實他們都在落實他們所謂的一個中國原則"},{"start":3939.668,"end":3955.016,"text":"所以這個我們去說明之後,不是說它只是一個某一年的解釋文這個是中共法律戰的基礎,法理基礎,所以我們一定要破它所以透過包括美國,像美國現在的所謂的RCO,就是所謂的區域中國觀察員"},{"start":3958.338,"end":3972.828,"text":"那我們也跟包括各國都在交流所以中共的所謂法律戰啊然後這個所謂假訊息啦這個跨境鎮壓其實滲透到各國啊都跟這個台灣的這個所謂2758的決議啊"},{"start":3974.409,"end":3991.602,"text":"阿雖然二十五號決議根本沒有一個文字一個字提到台灣所以這是為什麼IPAC通過決議這麼重要然後各國都會一一通過我們反手為攻希望說讓這個台灣的法律地位不要被中共所壟斷變成一中這樣的一個法律基礎"},{"start":3992.363,"end":3997.165,"text":"所以部長是認為就是說經過台灣的不斷的論述其實現在各個國家其實都可以了解2158號決議真正的它的這個內容跟這個內涵因為時間的關係部長剛剛有提到其實我們的外交工作是越挫越勇當然真的是很不容易台灣一直在國際的這個從過去的我們會覺得說自己像小媳婦現在能夠站到世界這個舞台當然"},{"start":4020.055,"end":4032.528,"text":"外交部的努力各個單位的努力讓世界看到台灣那我也相信台灣會越挫越勇也會讓台灣的價值在這個世界發光發熱以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢"},{"start":4048.089,"end":4077.641,"text":"有請林部長 謝謝主席好 請林部長部長好 喂好那個由於美國和伊朗的發生了一個戰爭那這一段時間國人都非常的關注那這個徹橋的一個狀況那外交部和駐外人員也面臨非常大的一個壓力那今天報告中有特別提到"},{"start":4078.291,"end":4104.048,"text":"應變這個因應中東的地區的一個戰火那外交部和相關的外管第一時間成立一個專案應變小組協助了超過兩千一百多位國人平安的反台那本性首先想了解是面對突發的一個狀況那外管的具體的這個處置的能力那在這個暫時在"},{"start":4108.38,"end":4120.135,"text":"2月28號開始政府協助第一批中東地區僑胞回台用了多少的時間第一批回台的人數大概多少"},{"start":4121.743,"end":4142.929,"text":"報告委員,當然我們有統計到2400多人有協助的其中有些是在地僑民或台商或學生另外有一些是因為轉機過境的旅客前面那個部分我們都聯繫的很好第一時間我們都有建立通訊的那個時間多少?大概你們那個時間"},{"start":4143.689,"end":4165.304,"text":"我們幾乎在因為這個中東的戰事發生也不是今天所以我們大概所有的這些外館我們總會有八個相關的館處在這個地方我們都有一個群組也密切聯繫所以第一時間就已經都會跟這個僑民或者說在地的這些台灣人保持聯繫那他們也會回報那至於說"},{"start":4166.064,"end":4185.898,"text":"後面出去旅遊要回來或是這一些當然我們涉及到交通部跟觀光署啊對旅行社這邊的聯繫那我們在做會診部長為什麼要問這些問題因為我們在撤僑的過程因為常常會發生中東的一些戰事的問題太多了"},{"start":4186.698,"end":4209.816,"text":"有很多我們台灣國人在橋外裡面萬一發生要他回台的時候你們外交部的扮演的角色非常的重要所以在第一時間在應變中心在因應的這樣一個狀況我們要很清楚大概我們在應變因應的時間裡面大概有多少的時間"},{"start":4210.536,"end":4223.616,"text":"所以這個是我要問你的問題是我剛剛同仁有進一步說明從3月1號開始嘛從陸陸然後另外後續陸續的包括從以色列到阿聯酋都有對好那所以"},{"start":4225.997,"end":4245.086,"text":"這個就是我們外交部,當然外交部扮演的角色非常重要但是我們也應該不能孤精的來奮戰外交部孤精的來奮戰,也要其他的部會相同的大家一起來協助外交部在駐外的這樣一個狀況來幫忙這些僑胞"},{"start":4248.627,"end":4275.924,"text":"那個撤僑因為以下待會我要講的就是因為撤僑的考驗不只是外館臨時應變的能力也是對制度熟練程度的一個檢視理論上外館都會有緊急應變的計畫那為了遭遇緊急事件能夠依計畫安排那平時還要做到什麼要定期更新僑胞的名冊和建立聯絡網"},{"start":4277.786,"end":4294.157,"text":"所以相信這些外交部都有在做只是做了多少考量到許多外管人力有限本席比較擔心平時是否有落實包含非戰鬥人員和僑胞撤離的一個"},{"start":4295.038,"end":4313.926,"text":"演練這就是我擔憂的地方那另外我想請問一下駐外的外館外館處是否每一年都有安排撤僑的演練那頻率是多少頻率是多少部長我們因為有緊急應變計畫那也會針對新的情勢做這個應變的演練那至於"},{"start":4324.332,"end":4342.946,"text":"那個每一個地方的情況要帶來跟他戰爭的情形像以色列我們就沒關係這個這樣子你就把這些相關的資料這個外交部提供相關資料給我好不好好的那這樣的話我就比較知道你們大概多少的頻率在演練的過程裡面"},{"start":4343.706,"end":4357.396,"text":"這樣我們就很清楚只要是有發生任何在國際發生戰事的時候我們的外交部在駐外的演練的頻率大概還有在應變的能力大概有沒有隨時在激動時要面對著國際的情勢"},{"start":4366.423,"end":4381.377,"text":"那另外就是在過去的國際上的典範典範的案例例如2006年的韓國的黎巴嫩策巧的行動2021年美國在阿富汗的喀布爾"},{"start":4382.077,"end":4394.111,"text":"這個撤離的行動2023日本在蘇丹的撤僑行動所以本席發現他們有一個共同的點是一他們事前都經過實際的演練第二"},{"start":4398.135,"end":4420.648,"text":"都會安排由經濟或國營民航機的撤僑第三將撤僑的列為國家安全層級的跨部會行動這不是只有外交部的一個單一的責任所以部長你們有沒有這個整個像這樣的一個過程"},{"start":4421.948,"end":4428.593,"text":"不是只有你們外交部單一的責任那是不是要請求其他的各部會的一些協助"},{"start":4429.899,"end":4454.385,"text":"報告委員所以行政院也有政府協助里外國人跟僑民緊急應變的處理原則也包括這個所謂的緊急避難作業程序那我們外館也都會因地制於訂定包括撤僑在內的緊急應變計畫滾動式的檢討修正那當然每個國家的情形不太一樣因為我們其實跟很多國家都沒有邦交過甚至我們在當地的館處"},{"start":4455.825,"end":4475.346,"text":"有一些也不具有這麼樣的外交上面的特權所以在處理上我們會跟我們的友盟保持密切聯繫像我們看到包括這一次日本他也會跟我們諮商有沒有需要所以這一個也是台灣比較處境特別的地方至於說"},{"start":4476.827,"end":4502.219,"text":"行政院也是有這個機制跨部會我們也都在群組裡面那也有開會那如果要涉及撤僑那會涉及到交通工具那就是屬於交通部那因為如果說是要旅行社他帶的旅客那這個當然就涉及到觀光署所以確實是除了就是需求啦有沒有這樣子的一個我們僑民的需求我們要調查了解這是外交部做得很好"},{"start":4503.039,"end":4531.41,"text":"幾乎都列車每一個人第一時間的狀況然後就是說他們怎麼去避難我們都有掌握但至於說是旅客因為過境啦或是那個這個部分我們就需要交通部觀光署的參與跟協助我也希望是這樣子啦那當然本席過去訪官來觀察我國過去撤僑的一個狀況通常會有一初期的撤僑速度太慢第二非常依賴外國的協助第三"},{"start":4531.932,"end":4556.015,"text":"缺乏政府其他部會的協助以上第一個狀況可能和缺乏真實的撤僑的演練有關第二情況是因應因為我們我國受到特殊的國際的因素的限制這是一個客觀條件限制的一個無奈那第三撤僑是外交部部門的孤精奮戰"},{"start":4557.334,"end":4571.864,"text":"所以其他部會的參與被動和協助不足甚至行政院可能都沒有主動協調其他部會協助所以這個就是我們的盲點在這裡所以我要點出的問題請部長"},{"start":4573.625,"end":4601.551,"text":"能夠清楚我們應該在跟行政院加強的橫向聯繫萬一有發生任何在國外間撤僑的時候我們外交部除了第一個主動出擊幫忙撤僑第二一定要請行政部門來相關的來做一個協助這樣的話外交部才不會孤精奮戰孤精作戰好不好"},{"start":4602.091,"end":4628.373,"text":"我們會不斷的來精進特別是跟行政院也有個機制我們來反應委員很好的一個寶貴的觀察跟指導比較安心嘛 好不好那另外就是我常常聽到這個駐外人員提到就是這個各部會協調的問題顯示一個國家涉及到外事務主要是由外交部負責"},{"start":4629.636,"end":4658.463,"text":"不單純是外交部的事務我國的駐外單位也不只是有外交部例如111年1月退步會在首度派員駐美強化以退伍軍人組織的一個聯繫經濟部、國安局衛福部等也都會有駐外的人員在國外但目前除了外交部以外還有外派駐外人員的部會有哪些大概有多少人"},{"start":4659.927,"end":4673.898,"text":"報告委員 當然主要是經濟部啦 國科會 文化部然後也當然特定領域剛剛講 包括退伍會有些也有那教育部也是 主要我們總體上來講有628人是這個駐外那目前在 其實各部會"},{"start":4685.722,"end":4713.031,"text":"在本部啦大概所謂借用我們的員額大概35人這幾個數字啦沒關係你這個給我一份好不好那另外就是因為實驗因素在請主席再給我一分鐘那我國派駐國外的使團員額是否受到這個這個住在國這個在國限制"},{"start":4714.253,"end":4739.354,"text":"債國的限制那另外就是那外派的人員以外其他部會外派的人員使用卻而是否他們自己和住在住在國另外的一個協議還是由外交部的員額借給他們借員額的情況非常的嚴重大概有多少 名次也給我一分好不好我跟委員補充報告我正在處理這個問題因為"},{"start":4741.636,"end":4764.014,"text":"借用名額或用這個預算其實從總和外交的角度來講我們應該整體的去檢視現在的外管或110個外管然後需要的人力跟他的預算然後做一個整體的規劃我也想大大院的支持是很重要那我們不是歐洲專案我們去年跟人事總署溝通 協調他就有跟我們增加院額"},{"start":4764.514,"end":4789.545,"text":"外交官要經過考試訓練那是很冗長的事情所以各部會過去在駐外管我們怎麼去整合發揮館長制整體的總和外交的效果制度面我們也在變革但是在人的緣額還有預算上我們也是希望說一次性的完整的能夠找到解決的方法因為外管的業務非常的繁忙那大多數的外管"},{"start":4791.065,"end":4811.948,"text":"管處都有一個人身兼數職啊吼 調來調去然後調來然後借用然後又回到本職這樣的一個狀況對外管實在是不公平啦所以這個你們要通辦一個檢討那對外管應該要專職在他本職本職的工作"},{"start":4813.629,"end":4830.291,"text":"很多現在駐外的提醒給我很多的一些建議那駐外的人不能身兼數職然後呢 自己本職除了做駐外還要兼到其他的部會裡面這樣對他們來講是不公平的好不好你們要通盤檢討"},{"start":4831.573,"end":4854.348,"text":"好 我也期待我們除了外領人員的這些條例之外有一個外交人員的服務法像美國它就有這個Foreign Service Act我想也有很多委員表達關心我們也請一些專家學者在指導能夠建構一個台灣現在是很特別因為我們真的是各國都想跟我們來往"},{"start":4855.407,"end":4872.971,"text":"那就是透過我們的外館可是我們外館的能量如果不足或者是您剛剛講的因為一人間素質還有他們的工作上面的環境 權益這也是我作為外交部長很重要的一個工作這敬請大院能夠支持 謝謝謝謝 接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":4893.291,"end":4895.999,"text":"好謝謝趙偉 呃有請華膠部林部長請林部長"},{"start":4903.007,"end":4928.127,"text":"部长早安委员长刚才因为听到前面我们委员提到就是有关驻外人员的编制复合之中我提一个另外的一个建言就是我们现在杰出的女性外交官比例上是非常多但是在很多驻在国它当地的local labor force是不够的我们建议在当地本地的雇员"},{"start":4929.288,"end":4946.138,"text":"可以增加人数那在预算的需求上这一点我们来支持外交部因为有很多的工作除了白天的外交事务以外还有当地有一些行政协调的工作可是这些事情由我们的真正驻外人员来负担的话是不堪负荷"},{"start":4946.658,"end":4969.516,"text":"那我們可以建議增加當地local employee的員額那這個預算上面其實外交部可以做規劃那這是第一個建議非常感謝 這個委員看到一個最關鍵的問題怎麼因地制宜 然後有個彈性然後因為這也涉及到我們的怎麼樣的聘用的辦法能夠符合需求 謝謝"},{"start":4970.757,"end":4999.456,"text":"第二個建言也是剛剛您提到的就是這個2758這個條款因為1971年10月25號它已經經過好多次投票算那一次變成支持中共的票多過我們但是它在這個條款裡面它有一點點貓膩因為它是講什麼這個Restoration of the Lawful Rights of the People of the Republic of China in United Nations它是用Restoration"},{"start":5000.814,"end":5030.172,"text":"但在联合国的创立中华民国是原始的主要国签字到宪章还是中华民国那你现在怎么去恢复中国大陆呢他不敢用一个字他不敢用replacement所以他不能讲取代中华民国或提到台湾因此这个部分的文字我觉得我们未来在授课过程学院里面对年轻的外校官在国际法里面的用字要强调这个让大家认清因为现在被扭曲的解释"},{"start":5032.067,"end":5042.896,"text":"對 委員這是最關鍵啦因為中華民國是聯合國的創立國又是安理會的常任理事國所以這個確實是涉及到中國代表權但是對台灣來講在這個2758決議裡面150個字裡面並沒有去觸及啦謝謝"},{"start":5057.707,"end":5060.294,"text":"下面這個圖提供做參考這個"},{"start":5063.013,"end":5088.747,"text":"川普在去年的4月2号提到了对等关税他说这不是经济问题他这是已经国安问题当他提到国安问题的时候就涉及到地缘政治地缘经济地缘战略因此这三个地缘的问题已经纠结在一起正如同您今天的报告书里面讲全球地缘冲突持续加剧台湾的战略自主也越行重要"},{"start":5089.647,"end":5109.18,"text":"我在这边也持续向贵部或者其他部会提出建议希望我们政府在这个任内提出我们的国家安全战略因为刚刚您提到了在美国国家安全战略去年11月公布的时候提到台湾八次但是到了美国国防战略的时候就没有提到台湾"},{"start":5110.04,"end":5136.27,"text":"那最主要的原因是国家安全战略国防战略国防军事战略在作战区它是一层一层的下来的那么有重叠有指导从上到下是政策指导从下向上是实力支撑那要产生一个coherent strategy那目前在这一块我们并没有所以从这个图上里面可以看到川普跟这个"},{"start":5139.573,"end":5148.93,"text":"习大大他们见面的时候谈不谈触及不触及台湾基于他们双方的利益那我们要保持我们自己的核心价值"},{"start":5149.744,"end":5170.607,"text":"所以說全球的經貿持續充滿變數世界需要台灣的科技同樣地緣衝突加大這個衝突不只是經濟的政治的軍事問題在這種格局下我們需要運用AI的大數據也建議我們在外交部強化AI工具上的運用"},{"start":5171.468,"end":5194.091,"text":"就是把全世界有关我们叫开源情资就是open source information那这个部分要用这个AI来做整合对于国际情势发展可以产生一个预应的作为那么在下张图我们现在看到国际现实中大国基本上就是两手策略左右换利"},{"start":5196.346,"end":5224.759,"text":"這個前後施壓啊這個雙重標準上下調序變換主題使他的友盟啊在對手中啊不得不做出讓步那這個中間呢就是國家安全戰略的關聯性啊包括你的實力包括你的價值觀包括你的利益當然有這個軍事經濟治安政治啊還有核心利益啊長期利益短期利益再加上我們的價值觀啊民主自由法治但是這個呢這三個關係啊是互聯互動性的"},{"start":5225.259,"end":5236.571,"text":"我们需要把我们的 center of gravity透过国家安全战略能够及早定位出来那这种情况下可以看到美中两边呢他是斗而不破"},{"start":5237.745,"end":5258.522,"text":"和是维持和平但不合作那我们在中间的角色会越来越重要但是自我核心价值定位啊还是要靠一个文字的文字版本的中华民国的国家安全战略那美国的这个和平啊手段他后面一定是个实力支撑所以你看这个和平哥后面他是他的B2轰炸机啊"},{"start":5259.002,"end":5270.982,"text":"所以顯示出是他這個永遠呢在彈後面有實力這個不彈他要從另外一個管道做迴路那這個做您參考最後這個圖啊就是從"},{"start":5273.376,"end":5290.554,"text":"川普一啊到拜登一到川普现在任了那这是强权主导的外交政治跟政军精心的模式啊他是强势威择斗而不破合而不合制造议题主导谈判这是强权的主导但是这里面的每一个项目都可以排序出来"},{"start":5291.155,"end":5316.291,"text":"它是前后调整那我会把这个图提供给这个会部那另外我们也建议用方法论在这里面每一个产生的但书跟回馈的条款它可以左右调整那这个时候如果变成一套运用的工具对我们外交部的同仁来讲就是变成预印而不是等到事情发生的反应我想这个部分请大家一起共同努力"},{"start":5317.271,"end":5342.583,"text":"好 謝謝委員 這個很要有架構跟理論的一個對外交的角色啦 跟他的功能定位那確實我們外交學院也希望把這個納入這個對外交官的訓練 那我們的研社會還有幾個單位我們也待會再注意 這個委員不只諮詢您在接近外賓還有有一些"},{"start":5345.044,"end":5368.935,"text":"談話裡面這也跟我們總和外交是高度契合謝謝因為剛才前面的委員已經提到了就是這次美伊在伊朗中東周邊國家的外交部隊我們駐外僑民的掌握這個協助當然這個是大家共同努力因為在國家安全戰略裡面我們可以加上一條就是對於育嬰如果"},{"start":5369.835,"end":5387.503,"text":"在某個地區發生了戰爭那這個時候跨部協商的機制如何來主導是不是在這個狀況下我們要做一個特別專案預留一些預算要特別的員額因為靠住在我當地可能人數不足"},{"start":5388.263,"end":5416.687,"text":"或者是它的复合也不堪能够协调要透过友好国家的共同努力那么未来我们在规划的时候希望把这一个特别案例因为全世界将来发生军事冲突的几率都仍然存在那做出一个特别案例预做预算阴影及人力复合以及跟这个航空公司的包机如何处理我今天早上还接到一个华航机师回报的从这个多哈出来的飞机是满的"},{"start":5417.307,"end":5435.086,"text":"就是座位定不到那當然不是光我們的同仁那我覺得我們外交的同仁在這個領域上也付出很多我們希望共同努力育育這個危機而不是這個危機發生了以後如何做危機控管這個提供部長您做參考好 謝謝委員好 謝謝這邊就可以了好 謝謝"},{"start":5457.674,"end":5469.589,"text":"好 我們下面請馬文君委員質詢謝謝謝謝主席 麻煩請林部長有請林部長謝謝"},{"start":5479.771,"end":5495.023,"text":"其實今天早上在夜報的時候我發現部長做了一件很好的事情因為這個已經很久我們看到民進黨政府都做不到的事因為在夜報上面寫到我們的外交交出量力的成績單"},{"start":5496.184,"end":5515.7,"text":"那部長大概覺得不太妥所以你把它改成及格其實我覺得不管是外交或者各項的政府推動的任何政策都有可能面臨困難或者你有做得不夠的部分不可能百分之百那我們就務實的去面對尤其是外交的事務"},{"start":5516.561,"end":5520.883,"text":"我們不會不知道我們的外交的處境我們也很清楚現在的國際態勢對我們從過去到現在我們一直知道存在這樣的一個問題可是我們不要過度的美化我們現在政府很喜歡用那種內宣外宣的方式然後都說我們做得非常好可是大家當看到結果的時候又不這麼認為其實那種落差反而"},{"start":5541.63,"end":5545.593,"text":"會讓人民不信任所以我發現部長今天這個部分我覺得做得很好我們也希望未來我們在任何的討論如果說大家可以朝向這樣子因為你說及格那表示有一些是做得不夠好的那些不夠好的部分我們應該用什麼樣的資源或者我們應該要怎麼樣去強力的補強或更精進這才是大家去討論的一個重要的目的"},{"start":5571.129,"end":5585.813,"text":"所以今天從這裡看起來我們希望說接下來我們有很多在可以討論的部分或可以做得更好的部分大家可以共同來努力那剛剛有委員提到就是說在這一次美以一戰爭的時候我們這個撤僑的這個行動因為"},{"start":5590.614,"end":5599.941,"text":"過去其實在日本三一大地震或者燕子颱風或者像之前俄烏戰爭的時候其實我們都會面臨到有一些國人或者大家會關注到是不是要撤僑或者是不是我們國家可以提供什麼樣的一個協助讓我們的國人也好我們的僑民也好他們有一個更安全的一個保障"},{"start":5613.53,"end":5641.655,"text":"在這一次美伊伊戰爭的時候事實上真的有一些人其實是困在那裡那我們在這裡要釐清的是其實大家不要把它過度政治化因為在面對生死交關的時候大家只是想要安全或者活著找一個出路或者可以找到一個活著回家的一個路所以這是政府應該要提供的那今天如果我們還沒有辦法做到"},{"start":5642.475,"end":5669.629,"text":"更好的時候更周全的時候其實我們應該讓他們有機會去做任何的事情這一次包括中國大陸其實他們也讓我們的國人其實可以上他們的飛機即使從上海轉機回來我們也有國人其實可以坐日本的包機日本是把他們剩下的座位也提供給其他的國家只要你願意出來可能包括我們台灣人"},{"start":5671.07,"end":5700.119,"text":"所以只要有這樣的機會我們都應該讓他上去因為我不相信有些人說那個有什麼風險如果今天在海上發生海難的時候周邊最近的就是中國大陸的一個船隻他可以提供救援他可以提供所有的救生圈救生設備可以讓你上船我不相信那些在這裡說有風險的人他寧願自己在冰冷的海上繼續漂他不會上船"},{"start":5700.999,"end":5705.183,"text":"今天如果我們設身處地的去想,不要所有都把它政治化我們也有接到國人其實在對我們請求,他說事實上他們回不來可是後來他們就是搭上了飛機坐到上海轉機回來的我覺得這個不需要去苛責,我們也沒有苛責我們自己的政府"},{"start":5721.616,"end":5732.2,"text":"因為我們有一些困境可是當你做的沒有辦法做到的時候你應該要讓國人有這樣的機會而不是再去限制他所以這是我們藉這個機會要特別提出來的剛剛說到的撤僑因為有很多我們可能"},{"start":5738.283,"end":5758.9,"text":"沒有辦法去做包機或者有專機過去因為這個牽涉到很多相關的問題可是我們在這裡要反過來提到因為這個部分我們還是請外交部可以做準備因為現在這樣的機會可能越來越多我們所有的氣候的變遷造成在哪一個國家會發生重大的這樣子的一個"},{"start":5761.463,"end":5787.544,"text":"風險影響或者只要像現在世界的局勢這麼不穩定的情況之下哪一個區域會發生戰爭即使不是發生在你那個國家不是在伊朗可是在周邊國家包括杜拜大家都會去的地方你也不知道就是會被打了所以這樣子的因應的作為我們必須要有先有一個處置的方式所以我們現在把它推回來外交部現在有出國登錄月月抽的這個活動"},{"start":5789.506,"end":5804.404,"text":"這個部分我們希望大家可以在政策上面怎麼樣去做一個連結因為近期外交部跟媒體發布國人旅遊補助只要符合資格出國玩最高可以領五千元或者有一千或五百元的小禮物等等"},{"start":5806.306,"end":5822.459,"text":"那這個部分說是為了讓國人海外旅遊安全便利外交領事事務局推出這個出國登錄的活動可是我們發現這個可能也有一些問題因為你這個是自主登錄所以你沒有辦法去記錄到所有人"},{"start":5823.22,"end":5840.245,"text":"所以當他在哪裡 世界那麼大 國家那麼大他要去旅遊也好 去工作也好 各方面出國任何形式都可能所以當他沒有的時候 其實你也沒有辦法掌握所以我們把錢花在這裡與其要花在這裡 是不是把它用在"},{"start":5841.185,"end":5846.327,"text":"強化我們外交部怎麼樣在就我們剛剛說的像現在因應各項的情勢發生的時候我們怎麼樣讓國人知道第一時間要怎麼樣聯繫我們的外交部所有的駐外管處或者怎麼樣有一個幫他們協助的一個管道跟窗口我們去強化這個部分在他們出國的時候因為出國就只有一個就這些就只能從機場出從那個"},{"start":5868.214,"end":5892.527,"text":"海關出所以那樣子的一個管控應該非常容易讓他們得到這樣的訊息比你去抽獎還要好因為我們看不出他抽獎可以有什麼這樣海外安全的意思因為大家要去哪一個國家比如說要去義大利 扒手很多大家都會做一些預防的措施所以我們希望在必要的時候提供協助而不是這種抽獎的活動這個部分部長有什麼看法"},{"start":5896.589,"end":5921.019,"text":"我是同意委員的觀察跟建議當然一開始的時候就是五年前開始包括這個所謂旅外國人動態登錄包括LINE官方帳一開始是要宣導可是到了一個期間之後因為這次其實中東的戰事也讓很多國人知道這個有登錄也可以保平安另外一個很重要是跟旅行社"},{"start":5922.479,"end":5930.343,"text":"因為這個資訊就是到最後聯繫的時候我們比較知道怎麼去其實不會因為你如果不是發生在中東因為部長我們現在因為我們資源很有限所以我們一直認為說與其要花在這裡臨時事務局那時候不是說護照要做沒錢嗎放在那裡我們特別要提出來是說如果發生這樣的事情的時候我們其實讓國人知道應該尋找什麼樣的窗口"},{"start":5951.652,"end":5969.028,"text":"這個政策我們比較擔心的另外還有一點因為我們覺得他好像沒有太大的必要另外一個是因為現在我們台灣的詐騙橫行國際也是也不只台灣可是這樣的詐騙是因為他有很多的個資是很容易取得"},{"start":5969.608,"end":5990.494,"text":"或者被拿到了以後其實大概就做這些使用所以這個活動推動以來我們國人出國登錄的比例到底有提升多少是有提升了11倍啦這個以去年是6萬7千多人每個月但我剛剛講委員把他講完我覺得外交部門跟交通部尤其是觀光署因為他們跟旅行社這個是團體的"},{"start":5992.655,"end":5996.961,"text":"這個好好的來溝通他們透過這個管道的話可能效果會會很快的增加我們掌握旅行社就好了啊因為旅行社有最全面的因為我萬一我一團30個人去我只有兩個人或讓你一半15個人登錄還有15個人沒有啊"},{"start":6009.315,"end":6024.445,"text":"所以你在旅行社上面你會有最完整的資料只要他出去他到那個國家你所有的你都要通報我們馬上可以知道了所以就在海關跟旅行社其實可以掌握所有資料因為我們怕說你國人參與這樣的登錄的資料的時候活動結束以後他會不會被徹底的銷毀然後這些資料外流或不當利用的風險評估跟防範機制我們到底有沒有做到因為你這個只是一般的"},{"start":6037.013,"end":6045.761,"text":"這樣子的一個登錄的行為而已所以你的治安的管理的強度絕對不會很高可是這個記錄到說你所有的去的地方你很詳細的個資其實全部在裡面所以我們擔心的是這個部分如果我們任何一個政策提出來我們希望還是對國人真的是好的對我們的政策是好的對我們的外交是好的"},{"start":6061.536,"end":6068.559,"text":"那如果說有需要去改進或者我們可以修正方向的我們還是希望外交部這邊可以去審慎的評估好不好好 我們檢討這個經濟然後也會跨部會來協調因為目標是要關心跟"},{"start":6077.542,"end":6099.202,"text":"協助國人萬一在戰爭或天然災害或是什麼樣的緊急應變所以這個抽獎只是一個方法一開始也許為了要促銷宣導但是到了一個程度之後我想效果我們會來看方法上面怎麼去精進因為我們一方面就是說各自的這個保護因為我們還是希望這個才是很重要的考量因為我們做不到"},{"start":6100.382,"end":6110.926,"text":"幫這些國人他們提供這麼詳細的資料以後我們可以確保多少這個是我們可能要提出來的好那就這一方面我們希望未來有很多不管在預算上面因為預算我們還是期待"},{"start":6115.208,"end":6122.41,"text":"我們中央政府就是我們在行政院其實他們也可以釋出這樣子的一個善意今天不是只要求在野黨應該要去通過怎麼樣的預算任何的預算其實大家都希望可以好好的去執行可是當很重要的預算通過這樣子相關法律或者應該要編列的時候沒有編因為軍人的照顧警消的照顧其實事實上他就是重要的他不管對內對外"},{"start":6144.757,"end":6169.459,"text":"他都是站在第一線的這些執勤的人員或者所有服務的人員如果他們沒有受到照顧我們政府其他說非常重要根本都是假的所以就這個部分我們也期待如果說政府願意釋出善意其實沒有這麼多的問題那這個部分我們也期待部長有機會也跟高層建議一下 謝謝好 一起來努力 謝謝"},{"start":6177.433,"end":6191.246,"text":"現在我們請王逸川委員來質詢主席請林部長有請林部長謝謝"},{"start":6199.332,"end":6223.96,"text":"委員好部長好剛剛聽到你說我在交通委員會我就是為了你來的啦我這個會期就來這裡幾個問題請教我們現在有十幾個友邦嘛推薦一下我們如果國人要去友邦觀光建議哪些我去過是去過帛琉啦"},{"start":6224.929,"end":6231.55,"text":"那梵蒂岡也去啦其他國家我不熟其他國家還有哪些國家是適合我們去觀光的"},{"start":6232.665,"end":6252.78,"text":"謝謝委員因為您當過交通局長對於觀光很熟我也當過交通部長對觀光也了解我認為我們有12個邦交國當然也還有像友好的像索馬利蘭等等如果說邦交國我認為要區塊化的話一個當然是拉丁美洲有7個國家那其中瓜貝"},{"start":6255.541,"end":6280.32,"text":"瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯是中美洲所以我們很常去LA或是去佛羅里達這些地方我認為是可以延長到瓜貝因為是很不一樣的兩個國家一個英語系 一個西班牙系第二個我要講的是三聖聖路西亞 聖文森 聖克里斯托布尼維斯另外一個是南美洲可以單獨巴拉圭確實南美有另外的風貌然後再來就當然是"},{"start":6281.661,"end":6287.229,"text":"太平洋三個國家你總介紹完 我想說你會讀後哪幾個國家我建議這樣 外交部把這12個國家也幫他們做個觀光簡介"},{"start":6298.017,"end":6316.171,"text":"讓我們的國人想要去友邦,也知道要去哪裡,去哪裡轉機,安排旅行社有沒有要辦這種團,不然我們就友邦那友邦,不去觀光,都去投資,就是說觀光也是一種消費,投資"},{"start":6318.112,"end":6322.853,"text":"我們去年台北國際旅遊展已經幫他們設那個攤位那另外一個就是確實包括像雄獅等等他們現在就是從LA準備要攔客到貝里斯我也建議他們掛地碼所以我們會跟旅行社也事實上有一些合作不過您剛講那個測試怎麼樣我們能夠透過我們的網頁"},{"start":6345.778,"end":6370.795,"text":"還有各方式啦 其實我們很多的促銷活動 瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡啦 或是這個芭芭拉粿等就好啦 市長 剛剛馬文君委員在講的登錄啦 登錄抽獎 嗯 如果去這個友邦的齁 抽獎 蓋滿12個 抽獎的帳篷比較大 好 因為登錄去這個友邦的 如果我們有友邦的 那就會鼓勵大家去嘛齁 第二個 集滿12個 印章 好 集滿12個是你的事啦 呵呵呵 好"},{"start":6376.339,"end":6385.894,"text":"南韓最近遇到電子入境卡的事看外交部也有一些反應現在又傳出包括丹麥那這個"},{"start":6389.69,"end":6410.628,"text":"不管你們要怎麼做,或者是說設計系統的人在用的時候,那個國民、國家的名字有一點要把我們矮化,那外交部也做了一些相對應的措施那這當然軟硬兼施嘛,也不能說直接要怎樣現在進度怎麼樣,跟國人講一下"},{"start":6415.405,"end":6431.022,"text":"當然最近因為各國電子化政府因為有些不同的系統所以比如說可能簽證是一個然後另外就是護證或其他的相關的部會那它現在電子化之後就產生了"},{"start":6432.697,"end":6447.203,"text":"就是要一致 它內部這個時候我們都要去交涉也有一些國家發現因為這個樣子沒有辦法允許我們用原來的但是我們除了表示我們的立場以外繼續積極交涉因此而改變的國家也很多"},{"start":6448.283,"end":6470.469,"text":"但是你剛剛提到的所謂南韓政府我們是有跟他交涉因為他去年2月開始就是用電子路徑卡所以我們就必須要在這個時候跟他很交涉就是反映我們的立場以外我想他們已經有聽到了那對等跟尊嚴我們要有一些作為比如你剛剛提到丹麥"},{"start":6471.63,"end":6486.788,"text":"因為是兩年前突然間就是他們的這個外交部長就是一個這樣的一個改變造成了我們被矮化那我們當然就交涉那也透過G7國家去溝通那我們也相對的對等"},{"start":6487.909,"end":6507.274,"text":"我們就降低他在台灣的外交的特權南非也是這樣子處理我覺得外交就是秉持的這個國家的這個主權跟國民的尊嚴這樣子來做對外事務的交涉第三個我今天看這個報告裡頭啊一期都沒寫到卓院長去日本說私人行程啊 嘿私人行程 所以你們都不寫"},{"start":6515.625,"end":6533.178,"text":"我是方面那個台日關係有好交流,但也包括這一項啊,因為副總統,蕭副總統去的你們有特別寫,叫你有關的,叫外交部有關的,蕭副總統那一攤就跟外交部有關係都有關係啊"},{"start":6534.414,"end":6557.292,"text":"都有關係,因為既然私人行程,下去外交部看起來也怪怪的所以很好,我很怕你跟卓院長私人行程,如果私人行程可以下去,連私人行程你也要下去它是有一些外交上的效果啦,這個是必須要很清楚的肯定"},{"start":6559.677,"end":6569.561,"text":"對 運動外交也是我們很重要的一部分最後跟你談一下這個中東這一次戰爭的事情我們有一些旅行團在那裡的狀況當然網絡上面就會出現說有一些事情"},{"start":6578.359,"end":6585.786,"text":"像剛才馬文清委員講的,為什麼要去找中國的,才可以回來中國一直在載人,我們都沒有在載人,一直在等,中華民國在幹什麼,外交部在幹什麼旅行團去到中東,他可能是"},{"start":6600.14,"end":6614.049,"text":"過境,可能是轉機,有可能是去那裡工作,有些人是要回台灣了,有些人是剛出發就類似上次去阿布達比有沒有,劉建國委員是一團在婚禮的阿布達比去轉機,有一個人他的名怎麼叫,劉建國從頭到尾"},{"start":6623.735,"end":6640.592,"text":"聽說都打電話給你,叫你外交部到什麼地方那時候的那些機制,我相信當時在阿布達比那裡的外交我們的同仁也都很積極在處理這些事情這一次,中東站的部門,外交部叫這個觀光署"},{"start":6641.613,"end":6657.96,"text":"因為這有時候是旅行團旅行團你現在要改班機叫他換地方做走陸路到別的國家離開那個地方跑要去歐洲玩這牽扯到觀光署牽扯到外交部各式各樣的狀況都有你要不要跟大家講一下接下來這個醫療要不要改進"},{"start":6659.461,"end":6663.946,"text":"你如果有一個處長、代表好,車開了,又在那裡開機啊,開機啊,去機場,到三港,台灣人也很感謝嘛,這個過程一定要精進。好,我跟委員報告,外交部就很像台灣的阿信,"},{"start":6674.247,"end":6696.54,"text":"我們在外館111個外館很多外館沒有外交特權但我們拚死拚活就是要服務國人那但是剛剛講有一些旅行社的那個團啊他要玩完才要回來所以我們有將近兩個禮拜都是後續後面轉機的團不是原來在當地的啊因為他會給他出門而已"},{"start":6697.841,"end":6702.945,"text":"要去杜拜轉機,我回到,他可能九十幾萬,要去澳洲,九十幾萬你說阿媽,你回去,我九十幾萬要回去,誰要陪我,理情社說我沒辦法陪你,現在也沒辦法陪你,不然你住飯店住兩天,越住就越緊張,可能你住飯店旁邊,附近都住了,我就崩潰"},{"start":6719.642,"end":6730.57,"text":"有可能這個觀光署在這個過程當中 包括貧寶協會啊這要當成一個過程當中 叫外交部到底你們的合作關係因為國人 包括他們的家人一齣都會有煩惱嘛 他們說要團結啊啊我們中華民國外交部哪都沒在處理 啊他們團的人可能裡面一團二十個 有國會說我們要回去 我們不要去算了"},{"start":6743.319,"end":6745.462,"text":"有五個會說我們還要繼續送,有十個會說我們還在這裡等一會這個時候角色是什麼?這齁,就是說很惡心啦"},{"start":6754.206,"end":6773.561,"text":"就是人家找外館也不會分你哪個部會啦可是行政院的機制很重要比如說你剛講的觀光署嘛你掌握旅行社像我有當過交通部長啊你跟旅行社協調出一個好的方法旅行社和華益港灣很好做我們這邊是在地有些都入籍了"},{"start":6775.013,"end":6794.631,"text":"比如說我們在這個阿聯酋我們在杜拜結果他是阿布達比在那邊轉機我們的代表齁只會冒著槍林彈雨啊還被車騎去救人上次講那個雲林就是這個例子所以我是覺得大家去了解之後我們這個在中東的處境是特別困難"},{"start":6795.351,"end":6815.059,"text":"所以當然我是說政府是一體的啦我們就是總和外交吧所以這個有一些值得我們可以再檢視怎麼去經濟像以色列就做得很好因為以色列面對戰爭不是今天我們那個大使他是陪著我們的國人要撤離的是躲飛彈欸"},{"start":6819.442,"end":6839.159,"text":"然後還在高下橋下面,那個影片看起來你會不會覺得很心酸的呢?我跟馬文經委說一個很好的事,你要繼續推動,你還做過交通部長就是說我們這些旅行團出去的時候,到底我現在想說,現在全世界,到底現在多少台灣旅行團是國外的?我們的觀光署現在也不知道,我可以這樣說嗎?"},{"start":6841.874,"end":6850.148,"text":"有幾團有幾個人啦現在此時此刻在外面的旅行團因為我們沒有登錄現在還有人要去杜拜"},{"start":6852.479,"end":6877.988,"text":"這幾天旅行團有些還要出去因為我看你們外交部的政府是盡力啦但是也是有限的這個部分可能因為我們現在討論中東局勢國人在問說我們現在到底有多少旅行團在那裡嘛外交部恐怕又要去問我想你可能要問旅行全聯會或是憑保協會"},{"start":6880.209,"end":6881.77,"text":"我覺得觀光署可能也不知道"},{"start":6910.59,"end":6915.919,"text":"不分國家啦 種族啦大家都一起來這個人道救援像我們講到所謂的撤僑或護僑"},{"start":6920.055,"end":6941.941,"text":"國際也很關心比如台海的局勢這個就是我們共同的目標吧也就是說我們政府都要照顧人民所以這個不分彼此所以反而是我們外交很重要的一個可以說撤僑跟護僑的外交這個我們當然是會好好去精進不斷地去檢討所以現在大家要離開 要有日本的危機 日本的危機有台灣就借台灣嘛要有中國就借中國嘛 這外交部也不會去動啦"},{"start":6948.103,"end":6975.72,"text":"對 賣賣嘛所以這...我們...但是他的選擇對他最好 他才知道嘛中國的飛機你不可以借沒有啦 沒有這個東西嘛就是說他願...這個...那個包機啊 飛機反正可以離開那個區域基本上呢 國人安全是最優先嘛好 所以喔 因為這個...你們的什麼撤離多少人 那些人數啊 每天在統計我跟那個時間點喔 裡面大概慢了一兩天"},{"start":6976.735,"end":6991.418,"text":"就是人家在忙的時候 你們才開始慢慢出現 包括電話類似這樣的東西可能一開始國人可能第一天第二天就開始緊張的時候外交部以後要主動我們會檢討這一次整個處理 現在戰爭還在發生中我為了主持視訊會議 我要求往前去檢討之後 趕快"},{"start":6999.62,"end":7006.965,"text":"得出改進的措施啊團在那裡的人 我知道沒有那個資訊歐洲團 非洲團 中東團 當然出國的實力很強可能旅行團的家人是台灣嘛 你這訊息如果發出去可能這家人就會傳去外交部 你現在回到那裡有什麼困難"},{"start":7021.716,"end":7034.32,"text":"卡在一個電話這樣就會可能主動然後提早看到就可以做這個發佈讓這個訊息更完整啦好 我們會進入這個整個資訊系統通報等等謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":7041.616,"end":7059.027,"text":"我們說的是世界各國大家在那個環境底下大概面臨的狀況都會是一樣的所以我們精進的作為還是希望可以有更多的一個有效的一個資訊提供那接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":7070.994,"end":7074.237,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請林佳龍林部長請林部長我也好部長好 我想先問你知道台灣GD是誰嗎有人笑就是你們知道你們果然是外交部的專業同仁不會是你們取的吧"},{"start":7092.947,"end":7119.485,"text":"他們有時候這樣叫我是有點害羞啦不好意思因為你是good dragon嘛對不對有人這樣講但我不敢去沾光喔這不是我講的了解了解那但是因為這樣子那我想您對韓國應該很了解也很友善才對對我很多好朋友從學術界到現在那但我也要請教一下就是說從今天開始我們要如何來稱呼韓國勒"},{"start":7122.226,"end":7141.519,"text":"南韓呢?南韓,好,南韓,OK好那麼呢,好,我們要從這個整個事件開始講起來是在去年12月的時候南韓的電子入境卡把台灣寫成這個台灣China之後呢引起很大的討論那在這個事件出來的時候,我想請問一下我們外交部的第一個做法應該是跟這個南韓這邊的相關的外交部門來做聯繫跟溝通希望他們能夠做調整,對嗎?"},{"start":7148.684,"end":7174.496,"text":"那對方是給予我們樣子就是在交涉我們先講交涉的這個部分那對方是給予我們什麼樣的一個回應他們本來是二位一號就要統一就沒有紙本統一什麼就是那個就是這個入境那個電子卡電子卡以前還可以用手寫那統一的話就變成是都是寫台灣China的意思就是都用電子入境卡對啊電子入境卡不允許你用手寫的我知道現在他們延後了他們現在還是沒有說把它合併"},{"start":7177.677,"end":7194.211,"text":"是 但是沒有啊 因為你電子入境卡上面Taiwan China有被做任何的修正嗎?他們在這個部分 那表示說我們跟他交涉之後啊我們去年底交涉之後 他2月1號齁 呃 是要整合的 他就先放的那我問一下 那你們去交涉的時候 你們只是說 哎呀 這個分開讓我有兩種選擇還是你們是認為說 你交涉的是你的南韓電子入境卡的這個部分 不要寫Taiwan China"},{"start":7203.939,"end":7221.361,"text":"對那你剛剛講的那只是就是一種備案而已啊實際上面我們主要訴求人家沒有接受啊他們現在在處理中啊處理中對啊他說他們有了解我們的立場啊然後他們也在這個研究啊好等一下我會再跟你進一步討論說他們他們您剛剛的意思是我們一個一個來"},{"start":7222.082,"end":7245.723,"text":"他們現在正在處理中要把南韓電子入境卡上面寫的台灣 China用其他的方式表示您的意思是這樣嗎對 他們就說他們正在研究正在研究 那他有告訴你說要研究多久嗎他們有一個規劃 有一個期程嘛總是要有一個時間點嘛 不然我永遠都在研究 研究100年內結果委員今天的質詢之後 我想他們應該會聽到了沒有 我沒有那麼偉大 我不是台灣GD我沒那麼厲害"},{"start":7247.865,"end":7263.278,"text":"沒事 那但是南韓的媒體卻指出呢在南韓的官方文件當中一直都是用台灣China來標註台灣的那這個政府20多年來包含這個其中有8年是蔡英文總統的執政他說我們都沒有提出異議那請問一下南韓的媒體這樣子報導是有符合事實嗎還是過去其實我們有經過多次的抗議但對方沒有去做改善呢"},{"start":7273.301,"end":7286.508,"text":"這個是確實韓國一直這樣但是他現在是就是所謂的目的地跟他旅遊的上一站他把它用成China包含台灣所以這個是新制"},{"start":7288.251,"end":7294.714,"text":"心智是從什麼時候開始 因為它要電磁化所以就要整合 去年二月整合是它原本本來有一個 但它有兩種辦法它現在本來要改成只有一種辦法那我先不談紙本的部分 我針對的是電子入境的部分那南韓的媒體它的報導是說因為如果南韓媒體講的是錯的 那我覺得我們也有責任在這裡公開告訴他們說你們這樣報導是不實的"},{"start":7313.743,"end":7328.616,"text":"那他們的說法是說呢南韓的電子入境卡不講紙本喔一直以來都是用這樣的一個方式去做標註那你們都還說我們20多年來都沒有意見現在突然對我有意見過去都有意見只是沒有像我這麼樣的清楚直接有力的表達懂你的意思所以就是說過去確實有提出異議但是林佳龍部長是對於這個事情最強而有力去表達的"},{"start":7339.645,"end":7343.768,"text":"因為他去年二月開始就在我上任外交部長然後他要把整合啊那整合就會連這個空間都沒有的時候我們當然要表達立場他也聽到了他也暫緩了我們不能因為他暫緩我們就不做我們該做的所以我們該做的就是呢所謂的反制措施也不是反制啦就是如實的紀錄"},{"start":7362.68,"end":7377.515,"text":"不是啦 我們反制措施是把韓喬拘留證改成南韓嘛那原本是怎麼寫 現在改成怎麼寫跟大家說明一下好不好就是第一步啦 因為他們其實南韓政府曾經跟我們拜託嘛"},{"start":7379.096,"end":7389.101,"text":"就是以前最早的時候都用南韓然後呢後來變成韓國然後現在我們就說你這樣子對我那我要再叫你南韓是這個意思所以他給我們這個對不起校長China 台灣所以我給你Korea South你是這個意思是對等跟尊嚴對等跟尊嚴好有底氣那再來就是說呢"},{"start":7406.669,"end":7419.569,"text":"他們電子的不改我們改用紙本那這個也是屬於我們反制行為的一環嗎應該是說我們交涉啦我們其實我們是希望說這個東西能夠大家有一個解決的方法他也說聽到他也暫緩把它整合了"},{"start":7422.192,"end":7436.483,"text":"對啊所以這個就有時間來談但是我們3月1號因為是基於超支在我們的部分我知道我想要問的是我們用了哪一些我們用了哪一些的手段方式然後去宣傳說大家不要用電子入境卡都要用紙本沒有啦"},{"start":7436.883,"end":7443.49,"text":"就是有這個選項至少還維持有些人想用台灣還可以用台灣那你有沒有建議嘛因為這也是報導報的如果他說電子化就沒有這個空間了對 這個你剛剛講過了我現在在講的是說呢因為現在有電子的嘛然後跟紙本的嘛"},{"start":7454.161,"end":7462.485,"text":"那外交部是否有建議國人不要使用電子入境卡而改填紙本這個報導的這個標題是否屬實那具體是怎麼樣呢你所理解的是怎麼樣那如果說對於China括號台灣我們有些國人他很有他的立場他有另外一個選項"},{"start":7477.131,"end":7494.189,"text":"所以你沒有建議他要改資本只是說如果你個人覺得那你不想要用這個方式的話那你就填資本這個人的程式是這樣子但在國家的程式我跟他交涉就是基於說你必須要尊重台灣然後用可識別最簡單就是這個我清楚"},{"start":7496.411,"end":7502.434,"text":"那剛剛講到嘛那我們現在呢就要把這個喬韓的居留證你說以前我們叫你南韓現在後來呢這個韓國政府請託我們就叫你韓國好那現在呢我要把你改回這個Korea括號South南韓那部長您今天接受媒體訪問的時候你覺得這個會有效還是有效在哪個地方可不可以再具體幫我們解釋就是說你們是怎麼評估評估它會有效的那有效是有什麼效"},{"start":7523.936,"end":7528.198,"text":"有沒有效當然我們先表達我們的立場交涉中他也聽到了也做了初步先暫緩合併這個紙本跟電子卡但是呢進一步我們也設定了一個時間3月11號我們希望說他有具體他得出來到底研究的結果是如何所以他有跟您訂一個時間點就是3月11號我們訂的我們交涉的時候給他一個時間點我們下一步"},{"start":7549.727,"end":7554.492,"text":"3月31號會有進一步我們的作為都有先知會他所以是這樣子我們給對方的Deadline叫做3月11號那如果3月11號對方就是還是這樣子3月31號3月31號對 因為我想11號已經過了Sorry3月31號所以我們給對方一個Deadline叫做3月31號"},{"start":7572.27,"end":7585.539,"text":"那如果對方還是依然顧我沒有把韓國的這個入境標示卡去做調整的話我們還要再有進一步的動作是這樣嗎是那你們已經 我不問你喔我們跨部會有協商過給你到時候時間宣布這個我就不直接去問你反正3月31號之後我們就知道了嘛但是總之你們已經準備好新一波的這個反制作為等到3月31號不如我們預選的時候我們要推出來是這個意思嗎"},{"start":7599.028,"end":7619.681,"text":"我們交涉中啦當然我們相信對方已經有表達他有知道我們的意見對方有沒有成功我還不是很確定喔你這個也不是現在講說成功就成功因為這個所言甚是啦因為這種外交的事情都不是單方面能夠決定因為很難講嘛因為我們看一下喔這個給大家看一下這個是呢今天我要來跟部長講因為雖然你是台灣之第一但你不見得有在看韓國的這個論壇"},{"start":7626.405,"end":7640.844,"text":"那這個呢FM Korea網站呢它是韓國的一個大型的綜合網路社團就有點像我們的PTT或是Dcard那他們因為台灣祭出這樣的一個措施之後其實給予了很多對台灣的這個負面評價"},{"start":7642.927,"end":7644.608,"text":"那裡面呢當然我們台灣有這個網友講話有時候比較酸然後可能比較直接那韓國當然也一樣這個世界各國的公民都一樣所以呢比如我一個一個念部長你不要介意這部我寫的一 完全沒有打擊感"},{"start":7659.636,"end":7665.461,"text":"二不是說南韓嗎英文標示是South Korea那又怎樣改了又怎樣背景那些改了嗎他們發表的時候不是也是中國台灣嗎完全沒被戳到干我什麼事連對中國都不敢吭一聲的傢伙們那是一樣的道理啊哈哈你想做什麼就做什麼啊就算是倒台灣那邊的傢伙說到骨子裡還是中國啦戰爭爆發的時候你們終究還是得向別人尋求協助但你們認為你們現在的態度正確嗎"},{"start":7687.739,"end":7708.635,"text":"我念這些的意思是說我們在做這個調整之後對於韓國的民眾來說似乎對台灣開始產生一些敵意而且這一些的內容不是說這個是什麼中國大陸的這個認知作戰或是什麼中共的人然後在那邊寫這個基本上韓國很多民眾確實就我們想嘛你像報告委員啊這個是假的"},{"start":7713.358,"end":7724.483,"text":"韓國的名義我充分掌握你意思說這上面的人都是假的韓國的年輕年輕人都很支持基於對等尊嚴尊重台灣用我們的名字你怎麼知道是誰告訴你說這是假的我都有搜尋資料後來中共大陸大力的介入開始發動網路作戰認知戰所以有一些想要去扭曲其實這件事情是相對來講其實是很清楚的我們就是說你幫我們就是變成中國台灣這個事情我們有意見嘛"},{"start":7742.29,"end":7764.009,"text":"所以基本上大部分的人都是支持的包括韓國人你怎麼知道大部分的人都是支持的南韓的人也都很支持你怎麼知道他們都是支持的我有在搜尋啊你有搜尋啊你搜尋到的節目但是後來因為有一波大量的認知作戰進來所以你認為說洗過了啦因為你不能講說是假的因為這些人他可能是真的有這個障就是說確實在論壇上"},{"start":7766.511,"end":7771.014,"text":"那個部長我跟你講確實在論壇上有這樣的討論但是你可以認為說這一些討論是來自於你認為是中國大陸他們來做的認知作戰那你不能講說這個是假的因為我今天不可能說沒有出現的東西我自己做一個假的論壇然後我來這邊然後跟你實習一個假的東西我只是問你說為什麼他們會有這樣子的一個討論所以部長您的意思是你覺得"},{"start":7792.085,"end":7804.442,"text":"南韓的民眾其實是支持我們現在的反制作為然後甚至因此要求希望他們的政府能夠去改善他的電子入境卡的標示方式而在網路上這一些論壇上面有不同意見的"},{"start":7808.828,"end":7823.459,"text":"韓國所謂的韓國民眾是因為中共他們在透過認知作戰介入所以才會有的內容是這樣我再為你簡單講第一時間以及我們先前掌握的資訊其實大部分人是覺得這件事情就尊重台灣的立場"},{"start":7824.179,"end":7848.886,"text":"但是後來確實有介入 這個境外的這個部分不是說是假的 而是說它有網路作戰在操作中的那最後就是呢 那台灣的媒體也有很多因為我跟你講 因為我比較時事求是所以我是直接去南韓的這個網站上面去看他們的討論但是呢 在台灣我們也有許多的媒體他們的報導是這樣 比如我隨便找一篇叫做"},{"start":7849.326,"end":7867.474,"text":"外交部被嗆爆反制韓國改稱南韓遭韓網集體狂酸自卑作祟這些就是台灣媒體的標題那你有什麼想要跟台灣媒體說的嗎因為如果你認為這個是一個中共的認知作戰那台灣的媒體也跟進報導的話那是不是也被認知作戰"},{"start":7868.345,"end":7872.75,"text":"有時候不小心會被他利用所以你現在是呼籲大家也相信媒體他應該有判斷的這個能力因為這個論壇裡面相關的這個瀏覽人士其實超過49萬那留言數是900多則所以當然我們台灣的媒體也會注意到那可能也會去報導或是引用"},{"start":7890.148,"end":7905.121,"text":"但是呢今天部長您的說法是說所以我才在這裡講的比較直接一點所以您的說法就是說你所了解的情況這些人是少數中的少數而且是受到中共他們的這個介入所以才會有這樣的一個發言應該說中共已經發動認知作戰但是不代表說裡面的每一個留言都是來治癒這樣亡群"},{"start":7913.428,"end":7926.907,"text":"那最後一個問題就是說3月31號如果韓國沒有去修改電子入境卡我們會提出比什麼改成Korea South更加強烈的一個外交的"},{"start":7928.36,"end":7946.838,"text":"對峙的一個措施我們期待我們的交涉對方也已經有收到也在研究我們就給對方一些時間我要講的是說最壞的打算最好的打算當然是就我們外交部去協商的事情都能夠成功我也祝福外交部能夠成功但是我作為一個立法委員在這裡監督我還是要問那最壞的打算我們3月31號我提出的那具體的作為一定是比"},{"start":7952.063,"end":7960.134,"text":"現在只是單純就說你把我改名我也把你改名這樣子的一個措施更加更加的劇烈程度上面提高強度是嗎"},{"start":7961.974,"end":7987.441,"text":"我們目前就是一步一步來可是你剛剛都講到一半你話都已經講一半大家都聽到了我們現在只是改的是他那個所謂的僑民拘留證是完全是我們自己的我們還沒有去更改這一個所謂的路徑的登錄的了解了那我大概了解你的意思了那也希望這個交涉能夠一切順利好不好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":7993.232,"end":8002.675,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們先行宣告待會兒王安祥委員質詢完畢以後休息五分鐘我們現在請沈伯陽委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝請部長"},{"start":8027.289,"end":8042.699,"text":"最近外交有所突破但是我想提另外一件事情就是我們的女主這一次在澳洲比賽的時候發生了一些打壓的現象比如說她喊台灣加油"},{"start":8048.082,"end":8063.012,"text":"這個被請出場那又有呢這一個所謂他這個是因為美國職棒以前大都會有那個台灣日嘛所以他是穿那個台灣日的那個衣服那結果呢因為台灣日的衣服背後就只有印台灣而且是英文台灣那這個球衣也被要求要拿下來"},{"start":8063.852,"end":8089.153,"text":"那我就想說當然其實我看到後來這個全場球迷還是喊聽台灣提喊得很大聲那這整件事情其實說真的我們理論上澳洲對我們來講也是友善的國家那在想到底是第一線的這個工作人員對於這些規則他有一些自己的解讀那還是說我們在事前有沒有什麼可以以後防範像這樣的一個事情發生不然的話這其實也是在破壞兩個國家的關係"},{"start":8091.067,"end":8106.973,"text":"而是中共他長期在外國去要求甚至是解釋包括跟奧運或者其他的運動比賽其實這並不是他那樣子他也是一個認知作戰為什麼不能叫台灣"},{"start":8108.093,"end":8131.419,"text":"為什麼在觀眾席人家比較不干擾比賽人家要穿什麼衣服這是一個民主社會自然會尊重的一個社會這不是政府要去介入的可是中共就會去要求他有些進入單項或那個委員會因為中共在國際組織包括運動的這些協會都有很大的力量他在控制為什麼今天就是聯合國周邊組織都被中共控制他長期把祕書處佔領"},{"start":8133.96,"end":8146.819,"text":"所以是這個問題變成很多是變成是受他影響有些人不了解狀況每一個事件發生我們就要趕快去交涉也是一個機會交易那以澳洲這一次來看你看他們澳洲人的反應就很自然支持台灣就是台灣他們"},{"start":8148.681,"end":8163.491,"text":"一些運動的這個協會或是主辦單位他也會知道他也會去權衡或有時候會稍微有一個空間他就念一念跟中共交代但是你要怎麼去揮旗子穿衣服那剩下來就是你的自由"},{"start":8164.071,"end":8184.53,"text":"我是覺得一個自由的社會會有這樣的空間只要你不干擾比賽大家會加油像博士受邀訪去表演的原住民團隊一下子可以一下子不可以主辦單位也很失禮他們私底下都會說抱歉可是公開因為老共就盯著每一個人像是在法國辦奧運的時候滿場的人他們都坐在那邊他這一種所謂的"},{"start":8190.626,"end":8217.754,"text":"這個所謂的這個跨境的這種管轄跟鎮壓無所不在所以這個是我們機會教育所以台灣人要有這樣的一個我們要如果很清楚機會來了我們怎麼樣去處理讓國際知道中共的那一種做法其實是沒有什麼依據的是因為他這個久了之後就按照他的方法大家不想去得罪他我們就委屈那委屈也無法求全所以我們就是做我們該做的"},{"start":8218.554,"end":8241.418,"text":"剛剛替部長的回答我覺得當然就是兩個軸線第一個軸線就是說因為畢竟對方是用政治去干預這場運動那當然一定會造成對方的反感那我們在這個之前去做溝通的時候也一樣啊對方也覺得說那就是你們兩個國家的政治所以我們當然會有一個fine line要特別的小心就是我們盡量能夠事前溝通這是一定的第二個"},{"start":8242.098,"end":8262.593,"text":"剛剛我覺得第二條軸線剛剛部長提到的我覺得很重要就是我們要去凸顯也就是說它的打壓已經成為了一個既成事實它就是一定會做這件事我們也預判得了它做這件事那我們不如讓大家知道這件事情的發生所以越讓大家知道其實澳洲人民一樣就是他們的人民反而是會反感的"},{"start":8263.013,"end":8284.774,"text":"這是另外一種反向的操作所以我不是每一次都一定要是跟他硬碰硬但是我們後續的這一個處理反而去凸顯這個中國的阿爸我覺得這件事情是非常重要那這個就拜託外交部總和外交就是人人都是外交官隨時隨地一有機會當然為台灣發聲但是也要有智慧的處理所以這個之後就拜託外交部能夠協調懸橫"},{"start":8287.077,"end":8309.396,"text":"那當然大家都會期待我們政府啦就是但是我們我們就是大家跟各界一起來因應那剛剛也是就是大家都很關心就是說這一個目前來講韓國這個以前只是在去年就已經開始這樣的事情我看媒體朋友其實也問過很多次那我們在每一次回答的時候也都是告訴這個媒體說在交涉當中"},{"start":8310.257,"end":8334.825,"text":"就是我們畢竟不想要去破壞兩個國家的外交關係那這個因為丹麥這一個政府核發給台灣人的這個拘留證那這個也出現了這個矮化的這個現象那因為剛剛韓國已經被討論很久我想知道就是在其他國家的情形比如說像剛剛提到的丹麥的情形我們目前的狀況處理的狀況如何我想丹麥政府也不希望格林蘭變成美國的"},{"start":8335.925,"end":8359.373,"text":"那為什麼要把台灣變成中國的所以我們的交涉很有道理他們是躲起來就是他們有一個外交官很堅持其實他們政府大部分人都覺得國會議員也覺得為什麼要這樣之類的我看丹麥人民的反應也是應該如此才對所以他反而可能有一些個別的外交官可能做出相關的決定我們就要給他壓力所以我們也去交涉G7"},{"start":8360.533,"end":8382.673,"text":"很多國家也都覺得這個歐盟大部分的國家都很正常的啊為什麼你要去給人家改成China國號台灣或什麼這個居留證就突然去改你的依據是什麼嘛就是亂解釋一通啦現在一中連則已經都在北京亂解釋啦大家你看2758號決議為什麼人家很多國家歐盟包括G7都不講"},{"start":8383.494,"end":8397.039,"text":"現在連一中政策都不講因為會被混淆成一中原則一中不一中是中國的事我們台灣就是台灣這是川普總統講的台灣是台灣所以我是覺得為什麼用台灣有罪嗎"},{"start":8398.615,"end":8425.74,"text":"用台灣不行嗎台灣是個很中性的名詞啊所以我們已經退無可退啊是在這個情況之下我們得到國際的支持因為每個人很自然都會講台灣嘛你講全台北就很奇怪但是因為有些國際組織我們參加用那個名字可是你如果要擴張解釋裡面都不能出現連台灣大學也不能出現嗎National也不行台灣也不行那就變成University"},{"start":8426.58,"end":8444.965,"text":"這真的很奇怪 誇張啦全世界都認為說他就是霸凌啊 中共啊因為久了之後大家都 對不對就像俄羅斯對不對 兩頭得寸進尺今天就是打了烏克蘭 下一國要打哪裡那中國要欺負台灣 霸凌台灣那下一國哩 菲律賓嗎 日本嗎"},{"start":8446.005,"end":8473.665,"text":"所以大家現在都知道這個問題不是在台灣在中國我相信這個部長這樣的一個態度在國際上我認為是非常重要那我們長久以來這一個中國的打壓我們大概是已經忍受了非常的久那目前世界各國慢慢對這件事情尤其你看在這個總和外交的狀況之下認知的人越來越多我們在之前質詢的時候也一直不斷的強調我們除了面對這些什麼智庫啦政府官員之外人民真的很重要那現在很多國家的人民對這個是有認知的"},{"start":8475.546,"end":8494.782,"text":"那當然在越來越多人站起來這個反作用力一定還是在本來很習慣於中國打壓的跟中國在那邊好來好去的有利益交換的這些一定都還存在而這一些人還是會不斷地冒出來那我們用這樣的一個堅決的態度就是要告訴他們我們是不會退讓的謝謝部長這樣的一個態度那接下來海建"},{"start":8495.482,"end":8519.618,"text":"事情就是就是剛剛前面應該很多委員都有問到就是這一次我們在這個杜拜我們去做這些相關的協助啦反國啦那這個部長應該也知道中國在這邊做手腳嘛就跟關西機場那時候一模一樣嘛他想要去製造一些假資訊啊等等之類的我認為這一次政府的應對是很快的比如說一開始最早的有多少人要協助請他們填表單後來的關懷卡我覺得這個部分看起來是應對得當"},{"start":8525.282,"end":8545.038,"text":"我現在擔心的是我看到有這一個這一個也是當時的這個僑胞他有出來拍了一部影片這部影片現在這個也是近30萬的觀看他在指出一個問題就是說當時這一個我們的大使館的人員在凌晨4點的時候來迎接國人"},{"start":8545.658,"end":8559.958,"text":"那就可以看到這個下方這個畫面這個是華視新聞的畫面裡面就有講到說這一個我們的僑民也非常的開心說謝謝這個大使給予台灣人這個溫暖的照顧看起來是很好的一件事情嗎"},{"start":8561.099,"end":8584.406,"text":"結果呢在另外一台新聞他就發現一樣的畫面講的完全不一樣另外一個畫面在右邊叫受購外交部然後呢這一個呢累翻這一個呢逃難之旅終於落幕所以這個受購外交部這一個很明顯就是明明就是同樣的一個場合同樣的一個畫面但我們的新聞呈現變得完全不同"},{"start":8585.206,"end":8606.467,"text":"那我說當然新聞有它新聞的觀點台灣各式各樣什麼樣的新聞都有有些跟中國站在一起的新聞是多得很但是新聞還是要根據事實所以我想知道當時的事實到底是什麼報告員就是我們的駐外的管處的外交官即使沒有外交特權我們都是拼命"},{"start":8607.388,"end":8630.475,"text":"在就是幫助國人那有些資訊怎麼樣去獲得因為發生戰爭不是我們希望看到可是這時候一個人當然我們政府有政府在這個是大家比較安心可是每一個人怎麼樣去做處置這個資訊我們能夠把資訊網先建立起來這個才能夠應變所以我剛剛講有兩種人一種人是居住在當地國家的甚至入籍的台灣人"},{"start":8631.695,"end":8652.048,"text":"台商 或者是留學生 另外是旅客因為這些資訊大量的是我們必須要掌握不然的話我們也不知道怎麼去幫忙至於說幫忙 因為有一些地方 舟車 勞動很遠到了之後我們的外交官也一樣進不去因為我們有些沒有外交豁免或特權這個時候有一些體諒 我們也互相體諒"},{"start":8654.95,"end":8675.801,"text":"所以我都跟我的同仁講說我們做什麼除了做之外也要讓社會知道所以後來才有這些影片陸續有一些旅客或者是台灣人他們就把它拍上去我照片我就說你拿到這個也要分享因為分享大家才知道我們有政府在在那個地方所以這些事情就是有時候難免"},{"start":8678.003,"end":8706.522,"text":"損失有一定比例我們沒有照顧到我們趕快來補救我也是用這個心情跟我們駐外人員講我們不是萬能的但一遇到國人有狀況他有一些處境我們要設身處地同理心我又跟同仁講所以我們去幫忙他讓他比較安心一點所以我想後來大家看到的就是我們外交部在做的事情不只是說到機場到學校到有一些地方去關心也了解然後也協助"},{"start":8707.263,"end":8709.934,"text":"我覺得這件事情外交部是非常的辛苦"},{"start":8711.365,"end":8737.49,"text":"大家知道外交部的辛苦這件事情我覺得反而是重要的因為如果你不讓大家知道外交部在這件事情辛苦的過程其他的東西就會一直冒出來就是不斷地在作戰不斷地去告訴你說這個外交部有多無能這個對我們來講會是一個非常大的傷害所以尤其是就過往都發生過有這樣的一個外界就是帶風向"},{"start":8738.59,"end":8753.958,"text":"然後帶風向的形成那個批評之後呢結果這個批評到最後又落入到這一個我們基層同仁的身上我覺得這個是一定我們要避免的那我相信剛剛部長在捍衛我們台灣的主權捍衛中華民國的主權的時候已經講得很清楚我們不會這個中國的打壓"},{"start":8754.818,"end":8783.167,"text":"我們在國內也是一樣我覺得國內有太多是跟著在中國硬核的一群人我們也一樣我們不能夠去畏懼這樣的一個打壓我們不能夠畏懼這樣的一個抹黑事實是什麼我們把它講清楚讓大家知道外交部現在的困難然後外交部現在也的確有預算還沒審嘛對不對就是這都是問題那但是我們在這一個有限的預算之下該做的能做的然後要補足的外交部都會去做這個拜託外交部再多多push出去"},{"start":8783.427,"end":8797.6,"text":"我再跟委員回應一下我們外交部有很大改善的空間我們要不斷去精進因為有時候發生事情但是我們有做的也要會講剛剛委員有提到因為這個也會涉及到我們或後續再比較好做那這一個發生這種"},{"start":8798.661,"end":8815.562,"text":"危機啦這種第一時間每一個人的情況我們怎麼樣去掌握資訊我想只要是在在地不管經商留學或已經入籍的我相信幾乎我不敢講百分之百可能90%以上"},{"start":8816.283,"end":8842.253,"text":"我們都有建立聯絡所以在第一個時間像我們的這些外館都馬上就會發訊當然有時候通訊不行那會有一些要去解決的問題可是旅客啦過境有時候怎麼樣會是能夠對他們有幫助而他們也能夠幫助自己我們一起來面對這種危機讓他們每一個人都可以平安好 謝謝部長那後續我就在下一次的這個夜報我可能再來詢問謝謝主席 謝謝部長"},{"start":8849.395,"end":8850.676,"text":"王安祥委員上台質詢"},{"start":8874.928,"end":8896.761,"text":"我想因為我從學界來其實我都了解在學術界Official的部分其實外交非常非常困難包括我們協助一些像NGO的組織的參與其實也面臨很多困難所以我今天大概就想要特別提到一下所謂的Culture文化外交的部分就我的經驗來說我覺得這個部分是台灣非常非常強的一個部分"},{"start":8897.381,"end":8921.472,"text":"所以希望台灣能夠利用這個文化外交能夠勇敢的走出去而且就我接觸很多外國人他們其實都說非常非常喜歡台灣我想部長應該認同這個我們應該好好發揮文化外交是那這個因為前幾天這個總職學院也有韓委員提到就是有關於這個台灣review這個刊物的這個停刊好像跟這個數位化有關係不曉得部長是不是要藉機跟大家說明一下"},{"start":8922.203,"end":8939.729,"text":"對 因為我想數位匯流嘛內容很重要平台是可以多平台所以我們也要因應AI時代所以我們也在做一些就是新興科技的應用包括數位科技所以有關過去都是利用紙本第一個紙本你發了出去嗎"},{"start":8940.989,"end":8963.068,"text":"如果發布出去的話印了那麼多堆積在那裡再來就是說那個內容怎麼樣與時俱進甚至現在可以用AI去傳播所以我想兩方面一個是內容很重要另外一個就是它的媒介也很重要我們看到很多部長個人的網頁其實流量非常非常高"},{"start":8964.49,"end":8980.041,"text":"我們常常很多官方的網頁其實這個流量其實不是這麼高所以有關於剛剛我們必須要透過這種所謂的數位化的方式來傳播也請部長多多留意說怎麼樣透過這種比較official或是比較民間的力量來傳遞這個相關我們台灣的一些文化的訊息這樣"},{"start":8980.441,"end":9003.755,"text":"我再提供委員資料就是這兩年來我們在點閱或者是我們官網這個跟我個人的網頁當然也會互相連動怎麼去代中英文的啦那剛剛講的各種多語言我們怎麼樣就是說因為現在的包括中央社啦台灣Plus很多新的這個他們也在做這個工作的時候我們也要跟他一起來看怎麼樣分工合作過去我們在學校常常說"},{"start":9004.876,"end":9024.29,"text":"內容最重要每一屆可能只是輔助的功能所以接下來我就想要跟部長討論一下其實有關於我們實際上到底怎麼樣定義台灣的品牌到底什麼東西可以代表台灣接下來我們可能就來看一下過去我們知道現在外交部其實跟文化部有一些合作就我剛剛說的文化外交"},{"start":9024.71,"end":9037.986,"text":"我們當然也非常樂見只是我們可能要討論一下到底什麼樣的內容比較適合現在台灣文化的一個主體那接下來就前幾天的新聞曾經的新聞就是這個檀香山的狀況是不是部長借這個機會跟大家說明一下這個部分"},{"start":9043.853,"end":9064.55,"text":"我們這個是因為外交部有一個台美會的資產那我們已經跟這個檀香商市政府已經見面了他們要做都市更新我們要積極的來參與這個是一個Downtown Area是一個非常重要的因為疫情的關係就沒落了我們認為這是一個很好的可以共同開發的案子"},{"start":9065.21,"end":9092.611,"text":"他們現在的態度也覺得好像媒體的報導好像對我們有一些都停留在先前的階段因為他們那個市長寫了很多信當然有一些單位並沒有去回回復的很好那我是從去年開始就積極的跟他們希望說共同來開發是 所以部長說這個問題已經解決了嗎就是他們要弄一家公司已經雙方面已經有一個共識要來做都市更新來一起開發好 我們也很樂見"},{"start":9093.752,"end":9120.228,"text":"接下來我們就剛剛我一直提到文化的軟實力我認為台灣的最強的部分部長是不是可以跟大家藉由這個機會說一下大概部長覺得我們文化外交我們現在最強的文化實力是什麼文化外交是總和外交非常重要特別是對於民主國家他們很尊重甚至喜愛多元的文化所以你看我有個歐洲專案之後你看為什麼故宮到捷克去展到法國去展"},{"start":9120.808,"end":9148.746,"text":"那我們的部門的官員也可以到嘛因為對他們來講這個就是一個文化交流甚至到了維也納我也可以去這個愛樂廳去聽然後到了義大利羅馬一樣我們幽靈神谷的這個表演我意思是說文化是世界可以說共同語言而且文化強調的是多樣性多元文化嘛大家互相欣賞只有中共啊它是沒有允許多元文化所以"},{"start":9149.326,"end":9169.3,"text":"用文化外交對比比中國現在的這種戰狼外交我們最走得出去所以去年在歐洲專案我們找文化界包括文化部一起來整合我們既然有一些表演團體甚至金管會現在也發函我們的企業補助文化團體出國表演也可以適用於ESG可以抵稅"},{"start":9170.701,"end":9183.819,"text":"再來就是文化外交我們那個主題叫From Tech to CultureTaiwan Leads the Future因為台灣不是只有在德國半導體的投資我們的文化其實跟他們是互補的謝謝部長因為時間的關係所以剛剛沒有錯部長一直在強調這個所謂的多元"},{"start":9187.904,"end":9210.149,"text":"那所以很多其實台灣現在很多對外國人的印象其實很多我們傳統的一些東西像一些宮廟像一些我們的這個這個比較傳統的東西還有行李對所以我覺得就是因為台灣現在很容易就被扣上這個統戰的這個概念這種紅帽子所以我也是希望就是我們有一個有一個很清楚的概念怎麼樣區隔我們跟這個"},{"start":9212.809,"end":9224.299,"text":"這個對岸的這樣子的一個文化差異這幾年其實台灣有發展自己的一個模式我覺得都已經非常不一樣了這個問很多來台灣的外國人問他們要不要改學他們就會告訴我們說他們喜歡台灣這樣子的一個有理非常非常而且先去傳統的部分"},{"start":9229.864,"end":9246.55,"text":"那部長應該同意我這樣的說法非常同意他們會愛上台灣大部分都是在體驗台灣多元文化台灣的人情味以外其實我們對於不管族群文化先來後到或是世界像當代的這些精緻的文化台灣都可以兼容並需所以跟我其實有關於這種"},{"start":9248.01,"end":9259.843,"text":"就東方的文化其實我們也可以搶這個主導權不要都一直在挨打基本上可以看到這一頁投影片我們先日本還是哈韓像Korea Japan或者是Korean Rave這種其實在國際上都蠻有名的我們今天是不是來討論一下部長覺得台灣有沒有什麼很好我覺得這一陣子因為大家打棒球"},{"start":9271.735,"end":9287.724,"text":"這個聽台灣其實應該是不錯的一個品牌不知道部長有沒有什麼新的想法確實我們現在請除了跟文化部合作以外我們把文化界我們台灣外交部有一個叫做品牌優化的一個小組所以怎麼樣去做台灣Branding"},{"start":9288.784,"end":9299.255,"text":"然後怎麼反映在我們的禮品我們的這個空間的佈置甚至我們辦的活動裡面好像去年我們那個所謂的這個歐洲台灣文化年我們的那個"},{"start":9302.348,"end":9323.798,"text":"一個Logo就是用羅馬柱再加上台灣的晶片形成的一個像歐洲的這種神殿那個得到非常大的一個評價我再分享給我們外委會每一個委員那是一個很好的品牌化的一個例子所以我們在進行就是台灣這個跟世界要交朋友裡面文化是共同的語言"},{"start":9324.318,"end":9348.197,"text":"而且可以創造一些差異化避免被對岸的打壓這個就是日本文化外交的策略我也希望說就文化外交部分希望外交部能夠琢磨更多因為好像剛剛很多前面的委員提到所謂的編制、外館、駐典部分的人員比如像文化類的,剛剛部長說很多類的"},{"start":9351.019,"end":9378.156,"text":"這個外交部可以在他們那裡一下就可以主導很多的事情其實我們國傳司也在做轉型因為以前我當過行政新聞局長就負責國家品牌跟行銷後來當了交通部長負責觀光署那也是跟品牌有關的台灣的形象然後在外交部現在我們總和外交所以跟文化部有形成一個文化外交我們的一個小組也把文化界的專家弄進來所以這個確實"},{"start":9380.237,"end":9406.48,"text":"我們認為台灣傳統外交我覺得有兩個部分一個是現在之外是科技外交跟文化外交是兩個最走出去到世界我們能夠走出去的所以我就提到因為剛剛前面也有委員提到這個南非這個事情現在剛剛部長好像說還在協商那接下來因為好像有提到這一類的東西像這個我們的晶片外交是不是接下來有一些這樣子的一些策略"},{"start":9407.786,"end":9425.262,"text":"我們從來不以我們的台灣的我們的不管科技文化作為武器可是當對方這個沒有平等待我們的時候比如說我們在推動這個半導體所謂的信賴的供應鏈那為什麼我們除了跟美日歐以外比如說菲律賓是"},{"start":9426.303,"end":9441.508,"text":"它在地緣上它也是面對中國的威脅那它也跟美國比較親近所以這個時候我們怎麼樣把半導體的供應鏈把菲律賓納進來所以晶片是可以作為促進龍幫計畫但是有些國家對我們很不好那我們不用是一廂情願"},{"start":9443.569,"end":9451.677,"text":"去迎合他那我們當然會有親疏遠近這也是我在印尼他有一個很大的雜誌跟報紙跟電視採訪我的時候我們會對於平等待我是國家啦我們絕對是會加倍的"},{"start":9458.865,"end":9477.667,"text":"來去珍惜然後來去了解剛剛前面委員在提到這個南韓的部分我想我這個意見基本上就是因為現在有很多啦對我們不是非常友善的那也顯然不能夠把這些都想進去跟委員補充一下是在十年前南韓政府跟我們拜託交涉"},{"start":9478.768,"end":9506.354,"text":"我們用大韓民國啦但是很多國家也是用South Korea或Korea括號South那這個其實是一個我們的立場他也了解我相信我們也期待啦我們對台灣海洋關係是可以很好的不管在這個產業上在文化上可是這個對我們國家的這個不管是尊嚴或國人的這個他的一個尊重啦"},{"start":9506.854,"end":9523.84,"text":"好 感謝部長所以最後我就是把我剛剛講的再中整一下大概就這幾項包括我們的文化外交的總要戰略還有我們定位我剛剛說的希望能夠跨部會合作那請部長多多再來拓展我們的外交是好 謝謝維恩好 謝謝我們現在先休息五分鐘"},{"start":9904.449,"end":9909.392,"text":"好 請各位就座 我們繼續開會接下來請黃建斌委員上台質詢好 謝謝 稍微我們有請林家永部長請林部長"},{"start":9937.054,"end":9938.486,"text":"喂哈 伯弟弟好 伯長好"},{"start":9939.724,"end":9967.114,"text":"部長那個近期因為這個美國跟伊朗的衝突升高那中東地區的這個安全情勢持續的緊張許多國家都密切的關注他們當地的這個公民的安全問題因為當戰爭區域衝突發生的時候如何確保海外的公民他的安全是政府最基本也是最重要的責任那對於身處海外的台灣人而言在局勢"},{"start":9968.314,"end":9988.313,"text":"不穩定的情況之下 他們關心的就是一件事真的有一天發生異化的時候 我們的政府能不能領領 能不能安全 得到我們的處 這樣那一直本市這邊要關心的重點就是我國在面對海外衝突或戰爭風險的時候 是不是具備完整也清楚的這個撤僑或撤離的這個機制"},{"start":9989.594,"end":10013.321,"text":"那本市有注意到最近中地區台灣旅客這個撤離的事件在社會上引發了不少的這個討論那有媒體有報導就是在這一次事件有兩個台灣人在巴林搭乘日本政府安排的包機離開當地那我們外交部都要表示說這展現我們台日之間的這個禁忌時刻的互相扶持的友誼"},{"start":10015.362,"end":10033.533,"text":"只要是任何國家願意在危急的時候對需要幫助我們台灣人來伸出援手我覺得我們都要心存感謝因為對現在生在國外的國人來說最重要的就是安全的回家但是另外一方面有媒體在報導說有七十幾個"},{"start":10034.954,"end":10062.873,"text":"台灣的旅客因為中東班機取消滯留在海外就是旅行社這個事件嘛那也是透過後來是透過這個中國大陸方面的協調跟安排然後經過上海轉機返回台灣那最後這件事情相關單位表示是說從網路的訊號判斷這可能涉及所謂的認知作戰本想要請教部長就是說一樣都是協助我們台灣的人民離開危險區域一樣都是讓國人安全的回家為什麼"},{"start":10063.894,"end":10078.729,"text":"日本的協助撤離是友誼共互助那中國大陸這邊的協助會被認知是認定是認知作戰我想政府在面對撤僑或撤離國人這件事情應該是以人民的安全為最高的原則"},{"start":10080.09,"end":10107.412,"text":"應該不是正題的角度來看這個事情所以本身也注意到我們中央社這個報導我們外交部表示這個在中地區還有79名台灣人需要協助離境那我想既然外交部我們都掌握這樣的數據本身想要請教部長就是我們政府目前是不是已經建立好完整的撤僑評估跟應變機制那如果局勢持續惡化我們政府是不是有具體的撤離方案"},{"start":10108.052,"end":10134.825,"text":"好 報告委員 確實政府有不管是撤僑或護僑的標準作業程序那經由這一次中東的戰爭也是一個檢驗那我們也不斷地在改進那至於說您剛剛提到其實日本 那當然他因為他的這個包機的這個空位有先諮詢我們的需求所以我們政府有協助促成至於中國他並沒有 那個是轉機"},{"start":10136.546,"end":10163.008,"text":"是去上海中國是說的多做的幾乎沒有啦如果去了解在中東的僑民他們都認為台灣做的比他們中國的大使館好太多倍了但是呢我們不是在計較我是說救人優先如果當事人有需要提供什麼服務可是有時候正在戰爭中連一些機場都關了航空公司他也沒有飛的時候那我們怎麼樣讓我們的國人了解他也比較安心不然他會緊張部長其實本協議是說"},{"start":10165.47,"end":10187.612,"text":"把人安全帶回來是最重要的另外一個讓我更關心到我們這次的外交部次長吳志忠部長在接受媒體訪問的時候說中東地區空域關閉因此外交部先讓僑胞留在當地並且提到其他國家也沒有撤僑"},{"start":10190.795,"end":10207.97,"text":"我們在面對海外戰爭衝突或戰爭風險的時候撤僑的標準到底是什麼是依據戰爭的風險評估來做還是依據空域是不是有開放還是要依據其他國家是不是有啟動撤僑或撤離才來做這些判斷"},{"start":10210.238,"end":10228.985,"text":"報告委員因為所謂撤僑就涉及到行政院跨部會也有一個機制在處理因為包括交通工具包括當地是不是落地那我們外交部可以做的很重要所以於就是說我們當地的國人的一個關心跟整個調查瞭解說瞭解他們的需求"},{"start":10229.685,"end":10246.012,"text":"那我們的第一時間的了解是這一些僑民並沒有表現這樣的需求至於說過境的旅客那也涉及到怎麼樣去他們的需要到時候空域放不開是最重要我們跟當地國的交涉因為這個時間都涉及到一些這個空域的這個問題這個安全應該也涉及到主權啦"},{"start":10255.777,"end":10272.854,"text":"我剛剛講委員我們有個例子有個中國人因為想要跟我們一起撤出我們也是很樂意把他納入所以我是同意委員的看法在戰爭或天災發生的第一時間人道的原則救人是最重要讓他們有選擇可以離開"},{"start":10274.315,"end":10303.555,"text":"部長為什麼本席會問這個就是說如果因為我們一聽到是因為其他國家也沒有撤僑我想問我們的啟動機制是看其他有沒有才做嗎這代表你都沒準備呢低不動或不動還是跨數反數我同意議委員的講法因為這有標準作業程序所以各部會啊都要啟動是是保證這個是本席要問的那另外剛好部長提到就是說空域的部分嘛那我們撤僑難道除了飛機以外沒有其他的方式嗎陸域我們也有可以嘛對不對所以"},{"start":10303.995,"end":10322.162,"text":"有一些如果可以移動的話我們在這一次裡面有很多跨國的移動也是透過我們的管束啊協助然後讓他們可以從可以離開的不管這個這個飛機或者是說其他的陸域是是所以其實本席要了解就是我們到底有沒有準備好這件事這個因為"},{"start":10322.802,"end":10345.965,"text":"未來這樣的情況如果再發生的時候我相信大家不樂見但是真的發生的時候我們在海外的這些我們台灣自己的同胞我第一時間我要怎麼想因為我當我聽到這個時候其實換作是我我的家人是在海外遇到這種情況我一定會覺得說你都沒準備我們要怎麼辦所以這個部分布裡面這邊也是要做就是我接下來想要"},{"start":10346.866,"end":10367.206,"text":"具體的幾個問題就是第一個我們的風險評估報告是不是海外撤銷風險評估報告是做好了那這些撤離的指標是依照哪一些來判斷那第二個就是說我們是不是掌握目前在中東各國的人數那分佈跟安全的狀況我們是不是有建立即時聯繫跟協助其實包括旅遊包括"},{"start":10368.307,"end":10379.476,"text":"我們的華僑第三個就是說如果中東在進一步情勢升溫我們是不是具備有隨時可以撤離的這個方案"},{"start":10381.516,"end":10407.082,"text":"跟周邊的哪些國家是不是有做好這樣的互助或是說因為不可能是有有時候要透過其他關係嘛或鄰近的國家嘛那大概怎麼弄嘛那最後就是要強調是撤僑這真的是人命的安全問題啦那我很好奇想問就是說我們像現在中東地區現在在旅遊警示是被列為什麼警紅色警戒嗎紅色或橘色"},{"start":10408.663,"end":10423.293,"text":"就橙色啦因為我很好奇就是說當時如果說照媒體說的請我們在中東的這些台灣人說在原地待那都已經是這麼緊急在另外那邊待的意義是什麼"},{"start":10424.113,"end":10448.148,"text":"所以這個部分其實都是 其實如果是本縣 多少國人都要關心的事情那我想 當然很多外交的事情不是這麼的單純 我也相信那我也知道外交部很努力 但是我們更想要確保就是在這件事情給我們帶來的應變狀況 未來應付這樣的情況的時候特別是如果在周邊都沒有邦交國的時候 我們怎麼去把我們的"},{"start":10450.109,"end":10472.071,"text":"國人能夠安全的帶回來台灣另外就是再補充一個比較輕鬆的問題就是講到台東這件事情我想這幾年其實我們比較少看到外交部跟台東線有在做一些合作的事情不管是在推銷台東或者是說外國的友人來台灣或者是要宣揚台灣的這些文化本身在這裡建議"},{"start":10473.052,"end":10488.131,"text":"我們台東其實是 台東是一個德國的社會我們除了是擁有最多原住民族群的縣市以外我們人口其實是有民 客 員 還有外籍這些東西很符合台灣的精神就是多元跟包容"},{"start":10488.752,"end":10494.055,"text":"我們是希望外交部能夠多多的讓台東這樣的精神跟這樣的文化的特質讓其他的國家看到以來行銷我們台東縣跟台灣"},{"start":10510.927,"end":10531.822,"text":"我們會做重點請益委員因為我在擔任交通部長的時候幾乎把我們環島的鐵通路都串聯然後那時候疫情發生我們也導入深度旅遊沒有來過台東很難體驗到台灣我們只能說定位台東一方面是他的生態"},{"start":10533.584,"end":10547.419,"text":"板塊擠壓產生的不管是海岸山脈或整個地質再來就是文化多元族群所以我們最近也有一些原住民外交跟太平洋國家包括"},{"start":10549.201,"end":10557.626,"text":"獨木舟還有無動力的帆船那其他的我想如果真正要來第二次深度體驗台東比較長的時間去做度假我們現在的民宿我們現在年輕人的這一些創業的食宿遊過型都有來過台東會完全不一樣會愛上台灣"},{"start":10572.475,"end":10590.093,"text":"看的中央山脈我們是澳洲啦但是面對太平洋我們是在台東的最前面當我們是一個海洋國家我們想要更開放的方式讓大家看到我是委員我可不可以建議一個其實雙東我覺得我們高雄現在去的人多其實透過南回鐵路"},{"start":10591.294,"end":10616.703,"text":"那個鐵道觀光把台東跟屏東串聯起來是完全是我想都是世界級的體驗啦也許我們會來討論進一步應該都有些畫面我們日後可以一起來合作啦那最後還是請部長就是將我們今天我本席提到這些關於撤僑這些準備或是這些機制然後以及提到一些問題在一周內將這些報告能夠送到本席辦公室也讓人了解我們現在多高薄面對這樣的情況我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":10619.744,"end":10637.076,"text":"好 我們把已經做了跟應該怎麼做會更好啊做個檢討 因為這個事情還在發生中是前事也不忘後知之所以我們會滾動式的檢討跟精進謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":10647.998,"end":10649.831,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩林佳龍部長請林部長"},{"start":10659.474,"end":10686.485,"text":"我們外交部在部長擔任部長以後不管是綜合外交或者是整體國立的呈現過去這兩年多來確實有一些新的面貌而且台灣在國際舞台被看見的風貌越來越多元越來越豐富不像以往都透過被打壓或者透過災難或者透過幫忙被看見這一點本席在這邊給我們外交部部長跟所有同仁很高的肯定"},{"start":10687.425,"end":10709.44,"text":"真實的戰場其實是在外交其他的海巡警政國防是面對威脅但是每一天在面對這樣的挑戰其實外交部駐外人員都相當辛苦那我們也曾經討論過駐外人員相關的防捕、教捕各種那一塊我們已經討論一段時間我今天就不再著重在這一塊"},{"start":10710.36,"end":10736.146,"text":"我先請教一個問題賴總統就職到現在邁向第三年出訪一次目前有一次出訪到南泰今年第三年有沒有出訪的計畫有 我們有接到邀請但因為出訪除了國事訪問也有時候會配合對方國家有重大的典禮目前有哪幾國邀請我們"},{"start":10740.038,"end":10745.14,"text":"斯瓦帝尼最近有邀請台灣 因為他們有重大的節慶應該是死亡奔機40年 以及他們58歲的生日"},{"start":10757.83,"end":10773.515,"text":"所以斯瓦帝你有邀請 還有沒有其他的地方其他當然一般來講我們有一些比如說有新政府產生的國家或是因為他有來訪我們也是有要回訪這些也都在評估的範圍"},{"start":10774.295,"end":10798.069,"text":"所以今年確實有受邀也在評估出訪的可能性那我們元首外交其實對台灣很重要我們特別困難所以透過元首外交有的是鞏固邦誼有的是做外交突破那有的是希望被看見那你估計今年我們元首外交的頻率會一次兩次三次或者不僅限於一次能回答就回答"},{"start":10799.045,"end":10800.527,"text":"我們一般來講會朝兩次來做規劃當然也會因應情勢的發展來做調整"},{"start":10809.605,"end":10828.823,"text":"OK 好 所以我們樂見也希望今年的不管是國事出訪或元首外交能夠有好的消息那接下來我們要看一些面對的狀況在立陶宛的部分我們原來期待的是一個正骨牌效應也就是當時立陶宛設立台灣代表處"},{"start":10829.784,"end":10855.043,"text":"那我們希望連動不管是這個愛沙尼亞啦或者捷克啦其他國家能夠仿效讓台灣代表處能夠陸續成立那確實當時中國在歐洲尤其中東歐本來是他們有幾家級那個很強勢的外交力量在那個狀態下加上COVID-19的期間所以中國在這個Central Europe它確實是降下來了"},{"start":10856.184,"end":10862.671,"text":"目前我們觀察到的現象是立陶宛的總理盧錦尼涅"},{"start":10866.138,"end":10890.638,"text":"認為設置台灣代表處是一個巨大錯誤那他們的前任總理呢也向中國提案要恢復中國跟立陶宛相關的互動跟關係那這是一個警訊因為這警訊除了我們原來期待的正骨牌效應沒有發生我擔心的是逆骨牌效應也就是設立台灣代表處被定義為一個巨大的錯誤"},{"start":10891.994,"end":10913.38,"text":"那接下來對我們在歐洲的外交工作不管是多瑙河沿岸九國啦或者其他國家要開展往前更進一步讓台灣被看見讓台灣被證明可能會遇到更大的困難我先請問立陶宛發生什麼事情他會做出這樣的表述然後對於我們住處的更名目前立陶宛的態度是什麼"},{"start":10914.575,"end":10935.296,"text":"報告委員雖然他們總理曾經有這樣的發言不過後來也有修正然後在他們總統老薩達出面召開國安會議之後也定了調有跟台灣的關係怎麼樣持續的來發展所以說他們要跟中國的關係那個也不是操之在立陶宛要看中國到底怎麼做"},{"start":10935.836,"end":10955.463,"text":"所以我覺得經過這樣的一個總統召集的國安會議之後啊我們也很清楚他們也是很肯定跟台灣的這個我們的這個社畜的關係就外交部的評估我們目前跟立陶宛的狀態包含住處的名稱編制是不會有影響不會有改變OK那"},{"start":10956.483,"end":10983.661,"text":"骨牌效應的部分因為2758號決議文事實上是對台灣非常重要的一個法律跟國際事件當中國濫用扭曲解釋2758號決議文作為一中原則或一中政策的基礎對外宣稱代表台灣2300萬人那個虛幻的幻影讓台灣參加不管是聯合國或相關的國際組織遭受阻礙我們跟各國建立正常的邦交關係呢也因為這樣子台灣已經被代表的假象"},{"start":10985.343,"end":11013.809,"text":"傷害了台灣幾十年那從澳洲開始到歐盟許多國家甚至於連義大利的外委會參議院的外委會到美國到加拿大主流的民主國家都說2758號決議文無關台灣這是一個在法國際法理上破除所謂的中國代表台灣一中原則一中政策非常重要的法律戰的一個我認為是一個勝利那這也是外交部長期很努力美國國務院也幫了很多的忙那"},{"start":11014.489,"end":11036.078,"text":"在2758號決議文加上立陶宛的效應原來我們期待是歐洲像愛沙尼亞 埃斯多尼亞也許我們可以設置一個台灣代表處或其他住處做一個證明目前愛沙尼亞的設處其實講了很久很久包含雙邊的合作互訪也相當多現在的諮商的階段進到哪裡"},{"start":11037.132,"end":11055.161,"text":"報告委員 我們在他通過國會賦予的法源 已經在進行施行細則那這施行細則會針對 當然他是把台灣放在整個法案裡面 就是某一類我們實質上在周邊國家也都有一些涉處"},{"start":11056.341,"end":11064.868,"text":"我們的外交的這個地位跟特權還有豁免等那這個就都有在溝通中可是因為那個施行細則要完成我們才能夠正式的來提出那個方案"},{"start":11071.474,"end":11095.882,"text":"這個Astonia他們的是用一個法律去框架不同的外交關係的定義嘛是所以設出那個法源細節出來就可以處理了那住處名稱呢住處名稱當然也都會交換意見在這個階段啦目前傾向是台北經貿或者是台灣因為對方在通過國會這個法案以及他們內閣的這個決定的時候其實他們是用台北"},{"start":11096.547,"end":11110.516,"text":"他是用台北是所以目前是往台北辦事處做他們的先前的這個就是用的希望如果台灣有設處是以台北那我們外交部的態度呢跟工作的方向呢"},{"start":11111.144,"end":11126.945,"text":"我們基本上就是建立實質的外交關係那有外交的這種代表性這是我們的目標那每一個國家也都會因應他的情況我想這個是就是不是單一的方案"},{"start":11129.068,"end":11155.387,"text":"外交部長在這邊不適合把我們底牌縮死啦但我們還是期待讓台灣2300萬人像我台南我就不是被台北代表的啊就是說我們還是希望能夠被看見被代表的名稱我們希望我們各位同仁繼續努力啦但是底牌當然實質的台灣的困難我們都知道困難的來源我們也知道所以往對的方向努力不代表輕鬆啦所以請你們繼續加油因為我移到巴拉圭"},{"start":11156.047,"end":11181.755,"text":"最近巴拉圭的用那個超級豪華的旅程邀請了巴拉圭的國會議員去中國訪問那確實也產生一些效應他們回巴拉圭之後這是我們在拉美唯一的邦交國在南美唯一的邦交國他也表達說建議要調整對台的相關關係那我們都曉得中國習慣性或者中國會把經貿當外交武器"},{"start":11182.765,"end":11207.516,"text":"中國也會把貪腐當作外交的機會跟外交的工具這是中國的習慣有時候中國答應要買你的白蝦像洪都拉斯跳票沒關係洪都拉斯的人民付出代價沒關係但是他掌握key man就好了那key man用什麼方式來掌握眾說紛紜所以有關巴拉圭的部分我們外交部目前評估狀態是怎麼樣"},{"start":11210.029,"end":11237.701,"text":"因為我們的前駐巴拉圭大使現在是拉美師長我待會請他補充師長剛從那邊回來對對對中共對巴拉圭要挖我們牆角是不擇手段他動用的資源那個是非常可怕可是為什麼今天台巴關係還是穩定包括貝尼亞總統包括他們國會因為他們要跟台灣合作是看到台灣發展模式所以在巴拉圭就是台灣模式對中國模式在拉美的一個對決"},{"start":11238.923,"end":11254.637,"text":"所以最近包括宏都拉斯他當然旁邊有瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯就是林邦所以我們跟對方比的不是比金錢或比霸權而我們比的是台灣的發展經驗的模式所以巴拉圭"},{"start":11254.997,"end":11270.002,"text":"我們現在做到榮邦計畫包括八個旗艦包括他的醫院有資訊系統智慧醫院是全拉美最好的我們在巴拉圭榮邦計畫坦白講做得相當不錯我有去拜訪那個Gustavo他現在是巴拉圭駐美國的大使"},{"start":11270.362,"end":11284.261,"text":"江啟臣副院長也有組團去跨黨派所以這個巴拉圭本身 榮邦計畫是做得還不錯那中國往我們墻角所以你們現在目前評估巴拉圭狀態還可以那被他們的總統佩妮娜邀請賴總統訪問的邀請還持續中嗎"},{"start":11288.666,"end":11301.378,"text":"對 當然我們也邀請他啦他來我相對看起來比較簡單啦那我們總統出訪比較起來要考慮比較多啦所以巴拉圭的邀請還存在"},{"start":11303.24,"end":11321.975,"text":"對,我們市長一直點頭嘛,那時候你團的嘛,大使大使來那時候邀請的時候你還是大使嘛是,8月的貝納總統從上台以後就一直不斷的在公開或私下的場合表達希望賴總統有時間有機會能夠去訪問今年會安排嗎?"},{"start":11324.644,"end":11347.691,"text":"你這樣的笑容很燦爛我們隨時在準備但是實際是適當的時候那個有些要讓虎方來宣布好啦謝謝我真的懂了我最後兩個問題第一個是史瓦帝尼的基礎建設因為他也跟非洲的開發銀行申請當然史瓦帝尼跟我們非常友好"},{"start":11348.271,"end":11373.296,"text":"那史瓦帝尼還是會跟非洲銀行申請一些貸款、基建的計畫現在他的那個培克尼大壩的計畫申請到42億台幣的基建的融資結果飆到的是中國的公司用低價切到了因為我剛才還是講那句話中國會把經貿當外交工具、武器中國會把貪腐當作外交機會"},{"start":11374.756,"end":11390.268,"text":"就你們判斷斯瓦帝尼跟這個培克尼大壩對我們有沒有什麼值得擔憂或關注的地方我是非常關注啦因為我這個這個當然是他們低價競標我關注就是說這個大壩有沒有發電"},{"start":11391.289,"end":11406.78,"text":"如果發電後續的營運可能中共就會進來那還好這個大壩是純粹是一個水壩它沒有發電再來就是我們現在在我們的龍幫計畫已經進入這個石瓦地你就暫備儲油槽"},{"start":11407.66,"end":11428.173,"text":"那個計畫更大所以我們也讓台灣的包括OIDC啦 OECC啦還有包括這個台灣世襲國會都進去所以其實也許那個BAR弄起來我們台灣來幫他弄發電也是一個方式啦對 後續我們都可以去接手的但是他們的品質會不好我們不敢接因為他們的BAR有時候會破洞"},{"start":11429.834,"end":11454.809,"text":"大波動是會垮掉的還沒有碰啊 要賠償啊 包括在二瓜多啦那個會壞東西我們不要問了我最後提醒一句話目前南韓的部分我們是採取不升級對應的方式處理這是好的但我提醒外交部還是要一些實質的處理方式因為韓國這種做法非常不禮貌當然有網友說應該叫他南朝鮮但我們未必要做到"},{"start":11455.669,"end":11484.229,"text":"跟他們一樣這樣失格的事情但是我要提醒說對韓國來講我們應該還有一些實質的工具但是採取外交不升高衝突的方式展現國格我個人是給予支持但這個事情應該要盡快有一個處理方向謝謝接下來請牛許廷委員上台質詢謝謝主席 林部長有請"},{"start":11485.664,"end":11485.845,"text":"請林部長"},{"start":11496.319,"end":11514.731,"text":"剛剛黃建斌委員有關心撤僑的問題,這本席也蠻關心的,我做幾個補充跟再做一些比較詳細的一些提問。這一次我們目前為止還有多少國民,或者是僑民等等,留學生甚至是旅客,目前以外交部的掌握,還有多少人滯留在伊朗及相關的海灣國家?"},{"start":11515.765,"end":11540.2,"text":"目前我們如果估計是八個管處,當然加上土耳其,因為有些從那邊土耳其不算,我們有六個國家七個管處土耳其我們也把它放進來,因為周邊有時候轉機或者是需求那我們的僑民僑民總共有三千人我說現在還滯留的嘛,因為有一些回來了,然後有一些還在,現在狀況怎麼樣嘛沒有"},{"start":11541.502,"end":11568.192,"text":"目前已經沒有那個滯留那我們更重要的是說他有沒有意願想要離境現在是沒有現在都沒有 一個都沒有大家都安全回來這我們來瞭解一下因為剛剛這部長在答詢的時候有講或者是說我們前面不管是在新聞媒體或怎麼樣就很多人講也不是大家都用包機或等等的方式來處理不過是這樣子嗎 部長其他國家針對僑民的撤離跟當初在短時間內做的決策你有瞭解嗎"},{"start":11570.323,"end":11594.083,"text":"所謂專機 當然有用軍機 有用民航機看當地的情形我們的初步調查是在地的僑民是沒有這個需求因為他們當然也比較有經驗可是旅行社帶的那些旅行團曾經在一段時間內因為要安置在那裡的時候我想交通部"},{"start":11595.104,"end":11618.401,"text":"跟觀光署 因為他們是直接掌握這個旅行社所以這個方面我們也跟他都很密切我不會太為難你外交人員因為這本來就是第一個跨部會協調第二我們的國際處境本來比較狹窄不過我還要舉幾個例子比如說日本就安排了先搭乘巴士從陸路轉到一個相對安全的地方然後有這個包機可以回來我們還順便 對不對"},{"start":11619.722,"end":11645.292,"text":"幫忙我們這些國民 當然都是一些好事然後他們也準備軍用運輸機 以備所有的不時之需新加坡也一樣 11號撤離218米他也用包機的方式來做處理其中一半就留學生嘛 我剛剛有講留學生就是這樣那也都有這個甚至都有軍事上的一些準備 你總算要護航的嘛那美國也有撤僑班機法國是安排航班 紐西蘭政府也下令軍用飛機先預作準備"},{"start":11646.572,"end":11672.999,"text":"所以我講這件事情你總不能講說其他國家都沒有做所以我們也不做對不對這個在現在我們雖然階段性的任務已經完成了但你確定後面都不會有事大家安全無虞這個可不可以掛保證戰爭還在發生中所以我們也需要持續因應所以有關於包機以及可能的需求跟方式行政院有在評估因為這涉及跨部會"},{"start":11674.039,"end":11698.596,"text":"我想院裡面都會有整體評估之後的決定這本期我沒有要求說你一定講我也要派軍機啊或者是我也要一定要做好應變的準備包括這個選項但是我希望第一個方法多元啊第二個這個如果其他國家做得到我們也要盡量做到啦就我不是講現在就一定要做因為沒有需求不一定做得到要有這個準備一個方案有這個能力去執行如果需要的話那再來就剛剛也有提到嘛就有一些旅客"},{"start":11698.996,"end":11718.988,"text":"到最後他是透過中國東方航空回來那他顯然是透過中國大使館的協助我請教一下部長這幾位旅客或者是旅行社當初有沒有尋求我們外館的協助我是說這個資訊我們都有掌握然後他要透過哪裡去轉機我們先了解之後哪些航班是有的就像也有中國人透過我們台灣來轉機的我有在聽所以我了解"},{"start":11722.95,"end":11739.065,"text":"所以他們有透過外交的這個就上海這個例子基本上並沒有說有什麼樣的爭論因為盡快的讓當事人可以選擇他認為最好的方式離境我覺得這個是我們的共同目標所以部長可以基本上也是可以"},{"start":11739.645,"end":11768.943,"text":"怎麼評價這個事我覺得這個轉機到任何地方去只要是從戰場離開我就覺得我們應該都要支持啊都要支持 好 OK這我希望外交部這邊你至少做一點事不要讓這些人受到非難因為你講的這很敏感就是大家考量什麼政治立場你要比照日本還表達感謝之意也太為難你們了這本席我不會強加於你但問題是有些人講認知作戰啊他會形成國安破口這些然後甚至側翼啊想要去攻擊我覺得至少我們國家可以確保這些人不要受非難"},{"start":11769.463,"end":11789.924,"text":"因為外交部已經公開表態嘛任何的方式只要能夠安全的、迅速的、有效的脫離混亂回到台灣都應該要正面看待部長可以承諾這事嗎?對在這地方公開承諾希望大家不要再針對這群人的非難趕快翻篇好不好因為每一個的處境都很特別啊當事人最在乎他的生命跟安全所以我們全力來協助他能夠"},{"start":11790.745,"end":11818.898,"text":"所以撤僑這兩個提醒第一個因為戰事可能會延長後面可能會有需求該部委在這裡呼籲有一些國人可能這個時候不要再過去包括去旅遊或者是轉機或者是萬一戰爭又升高然後又困住了降低風險是一環嘛你該宣導要宣導但是做好準備嘛隨時對那邊的人隨時動態做掌握確保安全第二不管透過任何手段進來不要再讓政治的立場去干擾這個事情讓它可以順利秉持這樣的原則就好"},{"start":11819.358,"end":11833.902,"text":"另外花一點點時間跟部長探討一下國際局勢的一些變化最近美國川普總統的外交政策跟路線跟傳統的外交圈子裡面認知的其實有非常非常大的落差其中最重要的一點基本上就是國際組織的參與這個部長這個川普政府參與國際組織是積極的嗎"},{"start":11839.807,"end":11859.677,"text":"他自己在形成以他們的國家的這個為中心的國際的聯盟嘛 組織嘛當然也退出了一些組織 這對我們來講有挑戰也有機會OK 他退出了很多的組織 或者是用聚角會費啊 或者是消極參與等等的方式他其實是往後退嘛 大的方向來說他的參與率是下降的"},{"start":11861.778,"end":11875.132,"text":"那剛剛部長很好這是我正想問的問題啊這個美國在這個地方建區消極的這樣子的一個大環境下我們參與國際組織的策略啊要怎麼樣來做因應您剛剛講的所謂的機遇或者是挑戰分別是什麼您簡單說明一下"},{"start":11876.275,"end":11898.904,"text":"其實美國雖然推出一些國際組織 它還在聯合國所以對於比如說聯合國2758號解釋它不但有更完整的 它還發函各個這個使節團那另外就是說它在形成中的新的國際的組織或聯盟 比如像細勝市這種供應鏈 那當然跟半導體AI有關那我們就是變成裡面不可或缺的夥伴"},{"start":11899.284,"end":11919.077,"text":"那這個也是機會那至於說你說我們原來想積極爭取的一些國際組織那美國退出之後當然會有一定的影響所以我們也會跟G7其他國家在協商就是說是不是由他們這個比較有分量的國家也能夠來領先因為有時候要集體去洽或者是支持我們的時候的一些行動"},{"start":11920.719,"end":11944.452,"text":"好 這個剛好也是我要問因為美國雖然推出了很多國際組織但同時在2758號決議上面他做了非常強的政治的表態加大了一定的力道但本席想要問的是實質上他改變了什麼比如說以聯合國來講因為他對2758號的全世界講這些東西不應該排除台灣有意義的參與國際組織的各種方式嘛 對不對那我們長期以來不管誰在執政的時候大家都希望比如說國際刑警組織 對不對國際民航組織大家可以用實質參與的方式來做處理"},{"start":11947.614,"end":11974.422,"text":"那這段時間現在進度如何?有沒有遇到狀況跟...委員提到聯合國昨天有四個組織是我們特別集中要爭取的嘛剛剛除了這個Akeo這個Akeo或Interpol以外那當然他退出的那個UNFCCC跟這個WHA嘛所以WHO所以我們在這兩個是不一樣的處理方法比如說以國際民航組織跟這個國際刑警組織其實沒有台灣世界是會有一個漏洞是啊 這大家都這樣說啊這個時候"},{"start":11975.982,"end":12002.516,"text":"我是覺得他們對著我們支持的力道其實是有持續甚至增強甚至包括日本在這樣子的一個局面下面比如說我們還是要想辦法加入或是想辦法參與對不對國際刑警組織或民防組織也好你現在外交部的策略是怎麼樣正面突破因為我現在反正可能各個國家形成集團跟陣營所以我只要站在人多這邊我正面突破或者是我要迂迴的參與或者是因為怎麼樣都繞不過中歐大陸的打壓所以我乾脆死了這條心"},{"start":12002.836,"end":12031.23,"text":"現在外交部打算用什麼樣的策略因應有些輪值主席國是比較友善的國家比如說國際民航組織日本他們擔任主席秘書處因為過去有一些是中共長年的經營他就掌控所以我們當然我們有道理是一回事但是涉及到投票或涉及到政治力的角力這個時候我們的議程聚焦幾個國際組織我們也要有策略而不是說都是去call們結果都沒有進展"},{"start":12032.05,"end":12053.225,"text":"所以正面突破可能有一些困難另外我再跟委員補充比如說世界衛生組織我們今年有去因為那時候江啟臣副院長有希望說我們去辦智慧醫療展我們的智慧醫療跟健康產業我想在那裡就形成會今年一起我們也期待如果委員們能夠到場去指導但是美國也在"},{"start":12054.887,"end":12073.266,"text":"也可能會形成新的這種跟世界衛生組織性質相近的組織的時候那我們也講嘛我們總是ready準備好我們也可以我覺得這個時候就是有時候就是挑戰有時候是機會就看我們也要做好各種準備"},{"start":12074.427,"end":12093.381,"text":"這部長有提到四大組織啦因為今天時間比較有限我還有最後一個問題你要四大組織的參與策略你會有提供一份報告好不好讓我們做長期的追蹤跟了解因為我們也希望有突破嘛如果任何哪怕你只是迂回參與我覺得都是在外交上都可以或多或少加分我講我沒有要求一定要突破或你要在多少時間內達成什麼目標這太為難你們我都非常清楚"},{"start":12093.621,"end":12108.921,"text":"然後最後一個問題就是剛剛部長有提到因為國際局勢的改變美國策略的改變很多時候它可能變成多邊轉雙邊比如說最近的河母之海峽的這個狀況顯然大家都想說這照理來講過去應該要共同"},{"start":12109.581,"end":12132.831,"text":"國際社會共同處理來確保海峽航路的暢通但為了沒辦法處理呢我想跟我剛剛提到的美國撤出國際組織降低參與你少了一個很大的平台啊少了一個協作的空間所以就變成美國要個別雙邊的去找各個國家來協調這件事情那顯然以現在的消息露出來講好像不是特別的順利大家對於這件事情心態是比較保留的我覺得也合理啊"},{"start":12133.331,"end":12144.109,"text":"因為從外交角度大家以本國利益為優先的情況之下我幹嘛去擔負這樣子的一個高風險的這樣子的一個狀況呢所以這是一個大的問題但我要提醒部長而且這是預料問題當大家這個"},{"start":12147.028,"end":12174.649,"text":"外交的這個專業的人員做了共同的考慮所以不管是多邊跟雙邊這要暫時都陷入僵局走不通的時候有台灣內部竟然有一群人說我們要率先響應這樣的一個協議然後要派甚至要派武力等等去響應川普總統的的的的說法然後認為這樣可以帶來新的外交突破部長從外交的專業來講或者是各位外交部的人員可以來做補充這樣的說法對台灣的安全也好或者是對國際利益來講是有幫助的嗎"},{"start":12175.441,"end":12202.115,"text":"外交是一定以自己的國家利益還有包括主權跟安全為出發點所以第一個美國也沒有邀請再來就是說我們的角色我們比較不是透過軍事方式我想台灣的外交走得出去跟我們整體我想比較不是在軍事方面的角色但是安全面"},{"start":12203.135,"end":12225.609,"text":"很多情報的交換 各種可能我想包括像你看俄烏戰爭對不對我們也是有一些我們可以做的事情那也是在確保我們國家的利益跟這個委員組之下所以因為美國沒有邀請然後也不太適合嘛 對不對其實部長我也不多為難你但你看我點了這個事情跟剛剛我講的因為那會捲入一個我們比較不能夠掌握的一個戰場"},{"start":12231.052,"end":12244.205,"text":"所以這部分也希望外交部適時的有一些比較合理的說法我常常講國防題目跟外交題目不要有太多政治的色彩去介入的時候它其實推動會比較順利專業才會比較被尊重外交就是多交朋友少...少...少..."},{"start":12248.809,"end":12273.84,"text":"少找敵人啊對啊朋友多多敵人少少嘛對不對所以我想不管是剛剛我講撤僑的題目有一些人透過中國大陸的角度就不要讓他們受到非議跟責難或者是我講和睦之海有一些基於這個短視的政治利益然後去搞煽動跟操作這時候外交部要適時的站在專業的立場以國家利益為優先因為涉及到能源我們確實是要很專注的做一些因應但是不能亂搞啦好不好"},{"start":12274.42,"end":12283.967,"text":"好 幾個事情提醒部長 也謝謝部長詳細的回答 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請林部長請林部長"},{"start":12308.307,"end":12311.388,"text":"部長午安從早上到現在剛好中午12點鐘了輪到我質詢我想幾個這個時事題我想前面的委員們都已經針對部長來進行質詢了不過有關於韓國的這一題我想進一步的來提醒的是確實韓國這樣的一個"},{"start":12328.132,"end":12346.663,"text":"而做法是傷害了蠻多台灣朋友尤其是台灣年輕朋友的感情因為我們都知道不論是這個韓國的娛樂產業來台灣發展這個很多的這個女子團體啊等等來這邊開演唱會台灣的年輕人都很支持那麼台灣到韓國去旅遊的年輕人更多那麼"},{"start":12347.863,"end":12370.882,"text":"這樣的一個做法其實確實會到我們造成一些影響而且是民間的交流是非常熱絡的我想要比較具體的來提出來是說其實韓國的民間對於台灣同樣比如說我們去的很多但是韓國來這裡根據我剛剛特別要了一個最新的資料是如果以去年來看的話韓國是訪台的人數是第三名那麼在今年來講的話韓國已經躍升為第一名了"},{"start":12376.326,"end":12401.903,"text":"言下之意兩邊的交流互動是非常頻繁的就像部長您剛剛也說了我們在外交上面就是多交一點朋友那麼我是非常肯定就是說外交部這些年來不斷地在透過所謂雙邊互惠的方式包括我相信現在很多的年輕朋友可能去韓國是可以直接用快速空關那麼我們也看到了兩邊的這個互惠的狀況呢是持續在增加我比較想問的是"},{"start":12404.224,"end":12433.473,"text":"在我們跟一些國家雖然也許在正式的公文交流上面確實受到一些阻礙但是在實質上面的這些互惠是有進展的首先包括像我們現在的這些動作會不會影響到接下來包括我們雙邊互惠使用所謂的快速的空關 自動空關這樣的一些比較實質的部分那麼第二個問題當然就是我們也看到2025年連紐西蘭其實我們也都有快速的空關我現在列出來的像"},{"start":12434.213,"end":12445.319,"text":"美國、澳洲、義大利、德國、新加坡、馬來西亞可是可能很多朋友並不知道啦但是如果有商務上使用的人會了解那麼在這個部分部長你怎麼來研判"},{"start":12446.973,"end":12474.73,"text":"其實台灣的關係是很密切也相當有互補性所以我想作為政府我們都是在促進就是不然人流物流金流交通流等等但是因為涉及到我們國家的這個地位因為這涉及到兩邊他單方面這樣子用我們認為這不適合我們也跟他交涉他現在也知道就是在處理中"},{"start":12476.194,"end":12496.434,"text":"所以在這個部分我必須要肯定的是說其實在被拉高成為政治層次的問題的時候或外交層次問題的時候當然我們必須要展現我們國家應有的主權的對外發聲但是持續的就是民間交流的部分我們也當然希望不要受到影響因為兩邊可以看得出來彼此之間的交往民間是很熱絡的"},{"start":12501.178,"end":12506.005,"text":"那麼另外一個我要肯定的是其實這兩天包括16 17號有這個第九屆的玉山論壇那麼我知道外交部包括部長在內都非常的忙碌然後呢包括19號就是今天還有台北國際的智慧城市論壇"},{"start":12518.762,"end":12545.88,"text":"雖然說是掛台北國際智慧城市論壇啦但是很多外交的訪兵也都是外交部在做協助言下之意就是我們都知道中央政府怎麼預算卡住但是外交的工作不會停止本席特別就是處理了整理了一下就是外交部現在的幾個新興計畫包括部長一直提到的榮邦計畫還有國際交流活動跟訪兵的部分以及包括民眾最關心的就是護照印製跟領悟服務"},{"start":12549.002,"end":12556.968,"text":"單位的營運經費龍總統統加起來呢這些計畫是不是會因為真的總預算到現在還沒有審理而受到影響那麼尤其是我特別畫紅線的是可信賴的網路跟數位治理還有就是我們主權AI這個部分剛剛前面這個在野黨的委員也特別提到了不論是國防或外交不要把政治擺進來"},{"start":12573.018,"end":12593.774,"text":"可是事實上一直以來不是我們要擺政治進來而是中國不斷的給壓力或者是在國際間讓我們穿小鞋或者是施壓跟我們在民間交流上面非常好的單位所以說像這個包括剛剛特別提到的有關於伊朗戰爭美伊戰爭的過程當中這種所謂撤僑的行動這種所謂的中國的認知作戰不是我們發起的啊"},{"start":12602.941,"end":12632.621,"text":"是他們在發動我們要防守我們只好做澄清我們只好強調沒有這樣的事情所以現在包括兩個非常重要那包括我們台灣在主權上面的AI的辨識中國不斷的在為資料我們一定也要有所動作那麼這兩筆的預算目前是沒有辦法動之的時候會造成哪些影響那外交部這裡部長這裡有沒有什麼其他的可以來做的部分"},{"start":12633.882,"end":12651.394,"text":"好 報告委員 龍幫計畫很多是新興計畫所以必須要立法院通過預算我們才能夠啟動所以當然會影響 因為現在已經是三月了嘛因為很多事情是需要去做討論跟對方能夠來同意之後一起來推動 那也需要預算"},{"start":12652.395,"end":12673.917,"text":"那所以您剛提到比如說現在大家其實台灣在智慧城市展裡面很重要的就是數位治理我們提供了智慧解決方案從智慧城市、智慧交通、智慧醫療這個是人家看上台灣想跟我們交往那我們當然不把它列入榮邦計畫就是所謂的可信賴網絡跟數位治理另外當然有非常多這些新興項目會影響"},{"start":12675.839,"end":12699.832,"text":"那國際交流因為我們報告也有寫到為什麼這兩年大量增加是我在上任第一年之後我就解開了過去的平均分配然後邀訪的預算很少所以你知道我們歐洲31個管處像德國我們還有三個是辦事處一個代表處有一些一年邀不到一個團體因為沒有預算那我就是說我來找錢大家盡量去因為你要去諮商國會議員來"},{"start":12702.033,"end":12727.022,"text":"女業單位包括波蘭的國會議員的這個友好小組真的需要花個好幾個月時間人家也要考慮他可以來所以為什麼我們現在有一些突破也是因為這兩年大院的支持啦那我們有增加一些項目所以這個去國際交流跟訪兵比如像我們現在玉山論壇完再來就是凱達格蘭論壇那半年後要舉辦我們現在就是要找到"},{"start":12728.278,"end":12752.774,"text":"邀請了貴賓的時候確實會預算會影響我們所以說本席還是認為在這個部分我們包括現在的智慧城市的這個論壇裡面大家會希望跟台灣有做一些更多的合作而這樣的合作其實不是只是單一面向的台灣付出預算跟經費在這個部分其實台灣獲得跟國際友人的合作的時候也是帶領著我們的企業"},{"start":12754.555,"end":12758.999,"text":"包括我們這些網路的資訊安全的資通的企業其實有機會落地到這些沒有邦交的國家我認為這個點必須要透過部長這裡或是透過外交部讓外界知道不然的話又會被講說哎呀我們就是撒錢啦我們又是凱既外交不是這樣"},{"start":12774.694,"end":12788.988,"text":"從原住到轉成去投資就是榮邦計畫其實效果已經出來了包括帛琉還有包括巴拉圭甚至好幾個國家像在波蘭跟菲律賓波蘭的外交部長他是副總理"},{"start":12789.508,"end":12807.485,"text":"在國會他在這個報告的時候是第一次正式提到台灣是科技上合作的戰略夥伴那更不用講菲律賓解除了對台灣的交往這些都是非邦交國最重要的就是我們這個龍邦計畫的項目跟他可以對接的很好這個東西有一些計畫必須要盡快來啟動所以我也是"},{"start":12810.749,"end":12826.427,"text":"懇求我們大院如果盡早鋪圍之後我們的外委會可以盡快的審查因為現在已經三月在下去之後因為外交都需要很多諮商的時間我想幫部長下一個結論就是我現在所羅列的這些部分它確實它是一種投資"},{"start":12827.208,"end":12841.698,"text":"他並不是過去大家對於說我們在外交上面的付出認為是所謂撒幣這個都是一種投資投資回來的是對於不只是我們台灣的主體被看見台灣被看見之外我們也是可以就像您所說的榮邦計畫可以把這個更多的這個產業企業可以往外走"},{"start":12847.802,"end":12867.839,"text":"那另外一個我要關注的題目是我們現在看到的是有關於海外的這個疾難救助的部分因為當大家都有提到就是伊朗戰爭的部分本席在民間聽到的蠻多的是很多人他早就已經計畫好了要到中東國家來做旅遊"},{"start":12868.559,"end":12883.503,"text":"那麼有一些是自己訂的沒有問題但是有一些呢是跟了旅行社那旅行社現在就會跟他們講說你要退錢可以啊你不去也可以啊但是訂金不退甚至於還要要求他們額外做一些付費跟負擔那麼當然旅行社是跟這個外交部沒有關聯啦是跟這個交通部比較觀光署相關的比較有關聯"},{"start":12889.005,"end":12918.565,"text":"但是本席在這裡提醒的是喔對於民眾自發性的自己在面對現在的這樣一個中東的局勢跟狀況外交部除了市警之外我們是一個自由的國家我們不可能限制人民說啊 那要賣去 那要賣塞去我們只能用燈號來做市警可是第一個包括救助的系統如何的讓民眾了解如何來救援 求援之外是不是外交部也應該跟交通部相關的單位對於這些有一些業者"},{"start":12919.405,"end":12926.49,"text":"他們用這種方式逼得已經付錢的這個國人我訂金買就算了我還要再額外"},{"start":12928.167,"end":12952.167,"text":"補一筆什麼費用那像這樣的狀況會逼著民眾往前走那這個部分有沒有可能透過外交部交通部能夠了解有沒有這樣的狀況委員是要看到問題的關鍵我舉個例子分享當然我是外交部長我不是先前的交通部長不過在這個所謂武漢肺炎疫情發生的第一時間我們要"},{"start":12954.008,"end":12975.114,"text":"管制禁止一些航班那也影響到旅行社這些旅行社其實都很有組織我們可以跟他們的工協會討論做適當的一個補貼然後他們少損失一點但也不要都由他們出不然他們會轉嫁給旅客啊旅客就說我不去我就"},{"start":12976.215,"end":12995.715,"text":"這就虧啦可是我去又有一些風險啊那我覺得在這個關鍵時刻我想大家都了解啦政府如果可以出面跟透過旅行社然後讓這一些已經訂票要出遊的大家都能夠減少一點損失啦這個可能會"},{"start":12996.556,"end":13018.794,"text":"避免現在又有不少人又要去杜拜這個也是一個對我們外交部來講既有的才處理完2400多個現在新的又一直出現這個是因為已經戰爭發生三個禮拜了不是說剛發生所以我們也不能說請大家都不要去因為我們是一個法治的社會所以倒是"},{"start":13019.995,"end":13035.645,"text":"一個整體算一下看多少預算可以處理所以這是委員您的建議我是非常支持因為特別提出來質詢就是說因為剛剛前面好多委員都在講是不是處理好了有沒有處理完了現在也都講了都處理好了那我們現在就是要面對這樣的狀況因為戰爭什麼要停止我們無法決定"},{"start":13038.607,"end":13062.723,"text":"但是至少我們要認知到確實在民間還有可能潛在的會進行旅遊或移動的那這裡本席通過質詢也要提醒外交部雖然這不是外交部主責但是外交部似乎必須要跟交通部來做一個通盤的了解好嗎那因為時間到了後面還有委員所以我的質詢就到這裡好謝謝那把你們公布的狀況是不是再讓本席以及委員會知道好不好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":13065.063,"end":13068.264,"text":"我們接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請外交部的林部長請林部長"},{"start":13087.401,"end":13099.517,"text":"委員好來 部長你好春風滿面啦齁來 最近你紅啊 你講到你那個回應那個China 瓜福 台灣 瓜福齁這個事情啊 你說三月底之前會 他們會善意回應嗎"},{"start":13106.158,"end":13108.68,"text":"他們外交部有表示會怎麼樣 會怎麼樣回應他只要知道我們的立場那也要他們研究跟相關的單位諮商之後來回覆他們要收回去嗎"},{"start":13120.336,"end":13128.081,"text":"你說三月底會有回復是什麼那我們有跟他交涉我們要什麼 要什麼他也告訴他說我們當然也要壓個時間不然無限期拖下去雖然他們現在已經有暫緩把紙本跟電子卡整合整電池卡但是你的訴求是什麼這個動作也代表他有重視我們的意見我們的訴求是什麼我們的訴求"},{"start":13149.275,"end":13165.083,"text":"就是尊重我們的意見啊不要把我們變成中國台灣啊不要把我們變成中國台灣啊不要寫中國寫台灣就好了是這個意思嗎我們在世界各國大部分都是這樣子啊要講清楚啊你書寫我沒有聽清楚川普也這樣講台灣是台灣啊二郎喔你沒關係你怎麼說可是你現在說很多話"},{"start":13173.494,"end":13179.418,"text":"動作很虛啊人家講你 恰那瓜虎台灣這是實打實啊 這叫實錘按照你的觀點就是把你矮化 叫實錘可是你說我要稱它為南韓這個虛的 虛虛的韓國本來就是南韓啊啊這個來講的話 你隨便去Google 隨便去看這是一個中心名詞啊 沒有任何的矮化報告理緣喔 他們支持大韓民國啦"},{"start":13201.513,"end":13205.814,"text":"不管怎麼樣 你把他講南韓 說南韓他可以接受嗎你隨便去看 隨便去看報告委員 十年前他跟我們拜託再拜託就是不要叫他們南韓 叫大韓民國簡稱韓國你要真的去用這個來講我們叫做實錘的話 應該講什麼北朝鮮 國有南韓 還這樣這個委員的建議我們是不是要待會反應你要反應我們以前 這個東西 對不對"},{"start":13228.28,"end":13234.304,"text":"如果立法院做成決議的話增加我們談判的空間啊對增加你空間嘛這個才實錘嘛人家實錘你是虛的南韓這東西你隨便Google拜託各位Google一下南韓中姓名稱韓國本來就是南韓就是這樣南北韓他們是稱為國號叫大韓民國不是南韓喔"},{"start":13252.256,"end":13253.217,"text":"我們很少講大韓民國啦 這麼落口或者你要進一步的 你說要 對不對手法改回來 漢城"},{"start":13263.337,"end":13266.458,"text":"這委員的建議嗎要掛刺激 要這樣掛刺激啊是不是我們在列入啦 就是說我們會反映委員的意見你都可以去跟他談啦 我們作秀給你啊在這實錘 你是虛的啊 部長你打高空啊 這虛的 你非常虛啊外交就是要虛實相宜啊不能夠都是實也不能都是虛啊"},{"start":13287.708,"end":13291.292,"text":"這樣要死就這樣啦開始了你看喔台灣去韓國一年一百八十五萬你要不要請交通部說我們開始減半或者不要去這個沒有我們滿例以前不要去"},{"start":13306.175,"end":13312.36,"text":"沒有啦 這是我們政府跟政府的交涉我們民間的交往還是非常熱絡喔 好 所以這樣就沒武器啊不然就是說我們的貿易逆差一兆多咧我們拿韓國鑽一兆多 你敢沒武器說你這樣對我 我就跟你這個地方我家鄉檢驗 那個地方我給你不要出去你敢嗎 你說不敢啊觀光也不敢 貿易的東西也不敢"},{"start":13334.158,"end":13340.383,"text":"我們能夠講道理告訴他我們的立場國與國之間不是講道理啦國與國之間講實力啦我們也是以實力做後盾嘛你有實力在這裡你有實力就是說我們怎麼樣採取我讓台灣人少去韓國"},{"start":13351.491,"end":13354.773,"text":"對不對 我要讓韓國的東西少進來台灣這個就是實力啊 你實力擺在這裡你可以用武器 不用你覺得我難衡我聽到說我們還是期待港南政府他能夠就是說務實的處理這件事這個 我的感覺部長人家是打你一個很大的巴掌啦然後你輕輕碰一下他的衣服這樣撩起來 這樣而已"},{"start":13379.964,"end":13386.907,"text":"我替你很委屈的 外交部長我替你委屈我知道很艱難啦 要捍衛我們的國格啊然後也是要注重我們雙方面對不對因為也是有很多來往的關係啊不艱難就不會找你當部長了啦當然艱難啦 大家也知道中華民國的外交到現在為止沒有哪一年是不困難的都非常困難來 我再問你盧秀燕市長"},{"start":13408.462,"end":13410.265,"text":"好 你很熟悉了喔 日本啊你認識了喔認識啊"},{"start":13414.644,"end":13440.287,"text":"請問他去美國你有沒有幫助安排活動我們都是全力協助任何不管國會議員或是縣市首長這個對我們來講都是總和外交當然是外交但外交就不分黨派像我跟江啟臣副院長一起到了布拉格我們就在故宮文物展或他去不管是巴拉圭或現在去澳洲我們也都全力支持"},{"start":13441.568,"end":13447.583,"text":"立法院走出去就是代表我們國家好 那佐隆佐隆他院長去日本看棒球你們有沒有幫忙我知不知道知道啊有沒有幫忙"},{"start":13451.757,"end":13456.482,"text":"有沒有幫忙我們外交部做我們外交部該做的事啊所以有幫忙嘛所以不是 一定都會涉及待對嘛 當然啦這東西大家都 大家這東西就大概天空說亮話他去了你一定知道不知道的話你可以下台第二個你一定有幫忙沒有幫忙你也可以下台這東西就是這樣"},{"start":13472.237,"end":13491.648,"text":"因為他定位在私人行程你們都不予評論嘛該做的事還是要做啊但是行政院長就像你外交部長24小時都是外交部長沒有說我今天去應援不是我今天應援不是外交部長我叫林佳龍教授或者什麼的不可以的事啦著弄待24小時"},{"start":13495.49,"end":13502.194,"text":"一年365天就是行政院長沒有什麼私人行程啦所以你一定要知道你一定要幫忙否則你就失職同意嗎 同意我的話同意就是因為日本叫你不要講所以你不要講啦所以委員講了是啦 所以你也沒有否認啦這個我們很辛苦啦我就回憶起當初跟前副那時候我當時國大代表他是國大代表的議長"},{"start":13525.165,"end":13552.937,"text":"他帶了一兩個國內代表去跟日本的經濟部長日本的交通部長見面他告訴我 我那時候學到了他說跟日本 實質能夠碰到這個隔遠對外絕對不能講 否則就沒有第二次所以我們理解 不能講但是呢 這不是什麼制 什麼制而形成這個公務形成然後外交部知道 外交都有幫忙就行錯誤了好 謝謝"},{"start":13555.627,"end":13561.889,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝我們接下來請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢主席在場的委員先進 列席的任務決定事項 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請林部長請林部長"},{"start":13585.956,"end":13594.598,"text":"部長 我們算是認識很久了 從大學一起嘛 你是我的學長如果看到同學有些口角 你是會勸架 還是三分點我叫他們打起來當然是勸和啊對嘛 所以如果有人說 喝到你把他撐下去 這種人的話你不要聽你說我在講什麼 來 請問部長 那個TECO啊 是商標嗎TECO 我們外交部有一些地方叫TECO啊可是我們常看到TECO是動源電機啊"},{"start":13614.341,"end":13626.432,"text":"所以這個TECO是什麼?是這個嘛,是這個什麼?台北經濟文化辦事處,對不對?是這樣啦,好,可是國人不見得熟啦,考你一下一般人的,iPhone聽過嗎?iPhone,iPhone就是iPhone啦,對,AI勒?AI就是AI啦,那請問一下啦,這個TECO的TR是什麼?代表台北還是台灣?"},{"start":13641.735,"end":13653.532,"text":"看那個地方啊看什麼地方呢如果是在我們住處的牌它是寫Taipei啦但是如果我們網路上外交部的社群平台都是寫Taiwan啊所以你這個T到底是Taiwan還是Taipei"},{"start":13655.816,"end":13678.917,"text":"有什麼趨勢嗎他的登記名字剛剛剛剛講了 台北嘛登記的時候 早年登記是台北但是現在我們自己表達都用台灣不只如此不只台灣 現在我們自己表達台灣美國也是啊美國是要展現台灣的主權意向啊台灣保證落實法案是不是讓我們鄭麗君副院長去的時候台灣的國旗跟美國的國旗並列這是正式的官方場合"},{"start":13680.318,"end":13708.022,"text":"對 是嘛 是不是過去我們的軍事人員跟他們交流都不能著軍服現在可以明白的把我們的備章台灣的國旗放上去嘛 是不是這樣對 川普也講台灣是台灣啊對 所以誠實地圖條款 川普還下令啊只要是聯邦政府出資的地圖上不能把台灣化為中國的一部分 有沒有對 好 所以這是美國主動修法來展現我們台灣的主權意向外交部有沒有掌握"},{"start":13710.304,"end":13734.582,"text":"有掌握阿有沒有去參與推動不能講有啦但是不方便講我們當然是希望樂見其成這落實川普總統講的嘛台灣是台灣很好來我們往下看其實美國國會通過很多友台法案啦就2026國防授權法案對不對無人載具的產業可以合作台美的海巡人員可以合作譬如說台灣國際團結法案禁止中國打完台灣的國際處境"},{"start":13736.683,"end":13761.722,"text":"甚至呢終結中國對台灣威脅法案台海衝突之後可以阻斷中國的金流請問外交部美國國會通過友台法案你們都知道嗎都知道列了一張長長的表很好哪些友台的議員已經通過了努力中要通過的那這個你有去拜託嗎幾乎啦 跨黨派的啦因為這個動輒連署都是有時候都是幾十人上百人是 那這些你有主動去拜託過嗎"},{"start":13763.85,"end":13779.998,"text":"我們美處整天都在國會還是說他們議員有來訪過就覺得要幫台灣來推動這個法案我們都會跟他們在推動這些法案的時候做很好的溝通配合"},{"start":13781.667,"end":13798.36,"text":"部長是不是這些法案都有這幾位重量級的國會議員在後面譬如說眾院的台灣連線主席對不對譬如說軍事委員會的主席參議員譬如說外交委員會的亞太小組的主席還有呢連民主黨的首席參議員都是嘛對不對"},{"start":13799.269,"end":13820.688,"text":"是這些你都熟嘛對 都見過達克沃斯這個女眾參議員我們印象深刻她們都沒有來過台灣我有包粽子給她吃喔 很好所以你看請她來包粽子給她吃她感受到台灣的友情回去就持續推動台美關係強化對不對對 所以部長要不要多邀請一些來"},{"start":13824.724,"end":13831.148,"text":"那我們預算要趕快通過是是是所以要講給大家聽嘛我要規劃喔不然來不及你知道沒有錯但是除了這些邀請友台國會議員來訪台可以促進台美關係深化跟實質化之外我們怎麼樣還可以促進台美關係我們台灣的朋友除了去日本巨蛋球場幫聽台灣加油之外我們在美國的"},{"start":13848.678,"end":13860.902,"text":"我們的僑胞們他可以怎麼樣來促進兩國的關係是不是有聽說一個FAPA持續遊說美國國會連署支持台灣住宿證明有沒有看到這個有有外交部的看法怎麼樣是不是要加強力度知不知此我們FAPA連署要求國會澄清讓台灣的住宿證明台灣我們樂觀其成啊樂觀其成暗中失利"},{"start":13872.483,"end":13893.983,"text":"就是我們 我覺得民間自發的在推動這個我想對於美國 美國是個民主的國家 很重視民意是的 所以呢 國下而上 是然後跨黨派 然後行政立法部門都能夠來進行遊說所以呢 外交部不只我們要具體的行動告訴其他國家不可以矮化台灣 不可以把台灣扭曲他們的國格"},{"start":13894.623,"end":13910.737,"text":"負責在中國底下我們在美國的住處我們是不是就像您剛說的川普說沒什麼好問的台灣就是台灣對不對他們的盧比歐國務卿也說台灣不會美國不會把台灣當籌碼跟中國換取任何協議對不對這都是他們公開講過的所以你認為現在我們在美國的住處有幾個我們現在代表住處還有12個辦事處啊12個我怎麼寫呢我查了13個"},{"start":13919.449,"end":13925.193,"text":"代表處算一個啊代表處算一個所以12加1有沒有把握未來這些代表處跟辦事處讓它證明台灣"},{"start":13927.867,"end":13946.56,"text":"因為這也涉及到我們跟美國之間涉處的規定所以需要美國國會議員推動友台法案需要我們台灣的僑團聯名連署請願請美國民主國家尊重民意把這個事情讓台灣就是台灣好不好好那我現在問你一個私下的問題來我們看一下台積電在鳳凰城設廠你喜歡哪個名稱台灣科技園區還是台美產業園區"},{"start":13953.766,"end":13974.77,"text":"這都可以納入討論我也是如果這兩個名字任何一個我都接受也希望部長能夠去私下推動讓台積電在美國的社廠明明白白的告訴人家這是台灣的科技園區在美國科學園區我們台灣的科學園區是一個世界上的一個楷模也讓世界知道好不好好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":13981.431,"end":13995.699,"text":"接下來請王洪威委員上台質詢好謝謝主席請林部長請林部長部長"},{"start":14004.963,"end":14025.625,"text":"部長我知道我們外交部其實要維持還有經營我們中華民國的對外關係是非常非常艱苦的因為台灣的國際的這個外交情勢的環境確實是很難的那我剛在上來之前有人傳給我一個在網路上PTT"},{"start":14026.294,"end":14044.205,"text":"有一個爆料那個爆料是日本日本針對這一次卓榮泰院長到日本去看球那在這之前其實日本政府因為這個當然是日本政府不會不知情的不管是之前的"},{"start":14044.665,"end":14060.471,"text":"我們的賴清德以副總統身份到日本去做調驗或者是卓榮泰院長去看球那當然日本是希望不要有任何的surprise也不要把它變成是一個外交的宣傳"},{"start":14061.511,"end":14074.283,"text":"但是因為這件事情後來的曝光使得這個爆料的內容是說日本高層極為震怒所以呢我們我方還有去跟這個日本相關單位來做說明因為我剛來之前我看到有人傳給我說網路上已經有這樣的一個爆料我不曉得"},{"start":14086.374,"end":14103.24,"text":"他們這樣的相關這樣的一個這個敘述最近以來其實我們都一直有聽聞所以請問一下部長知不知道有這件事情還是你們所了解這個爆料完全是子虛烏有呢還是呢他其來有之"},{"start":14104.51,"end":14128.228,"text":"報告委員因為我還沒有看到這個爆料我會來加以了解那我想雙方面啊卓院長有已經有公開講嘛他這是私人行程然後對方那個他們的這個這個官房長官他們也有提到根據我方講這是這個私人行程所以他們也沒有評論我想"},{"start":14130.089,"end":14151.683,"text":"那個部長可能要趕快去了解因為按照這個披露的內容是說因為日方得知在這個卓院長的這個團裡面還有發言人與攝影官也在訪團名單之中所以呢 讓日方質疑是不是有意要對外來揭露"},{"start":14153.504,"end":14176.269,"text":"因為他們希望的是低調 我剛講不要有任何surprise所以請部長可能要趕快的去了解 好不好所以其實我想你可能也有耳聞因為這個說法其實這一陣子事實上在我們台日之間一直都有一些傳聞另外有一件比較重要的事情是要請教部長"},{"start":14177.569,"end":14182.411,"text":"因為呢今天3月19號再過兩個月就是賴總統就職兩週年如果我們看過去啊過去包含蔡英文總統或者馬英九總統他們在就職兩年的時候呢他們都已經先後的以所謂的元首外交出擊"},{"start":14199.699,"end":14218.105,"text":"那都已經對外出訪已經達到五次不管馬總統或蔡總統那陳水扁總統呢他比較少是起碼也有三次可是到目前為止賴總統幾乎都一直宅在國內所以呢我想請問一下部長"},{"start":14218.985,"end":14232.625,"text":"在520賴總統就職兩週年之前賴總統有沒有機會能夠出訪否則這樣比一比實在次數太少那會讓人家質疑賴總統的元首外交做得不夠"},{"start":14234.482,"end":14259.698,"text":"報告委員我們當然在評估中是有收到斯瓦帝尼政府的邀請因為他們是有重大的慶典其他當然也有一些有我們的友邦有表達邀請以前我們有時候元首出訪說一般國事訪問也會比較配合慶典因為這樣子所以現在都會去"},{"start":14261.199,"end":14270.97,"text":"會去嗎 我們還在評估中因為說4月4月那就是在520之前如果4月是在5月之前對 沒有錯所以確實有機會去"},{"start":14273.676,"end":14297.689,"text":"這評估中其實今天很多人問到有關於韓國的對我們的電子入境卡用中國台灣方式我們予以反制當然在網路上有人講說不如改南朝鮮不然的話其實就直接改高麗高麗當年因為她的宗主國是中國"},{"start":14299.45,"end":14314.264,"text":"這當然是網友認為說今天既然我們要反制就要讓人家覺得我們的憤怒否則僅僅是這種改一個男孩不痛不癢無法來顯示然後讓"},{"start":14316.306,"end":14341.369,"text":"這個韓國知道我們對這件事情的憤怒那另外一個比較好具體的當然其中有一個比較我們最擔心的事情因為原來他是在二月底他就要取消好紙本的入境卡好那個如果取消紙本入境卡的話那變成我們只能要去韓國只有這個先這個電子入境卡不過他現在呢要延後"},{"start":14342.269,"end":14363.826,"text":"要延後所以我要說啊我們抗議聲音大一點我們兇一些我們在意一些當然對韓國來講他至少如果採取雙軌並行的時候那國人可以可以做選擇所以我想請問部長在我們的交涉過程裡面有沒有要求如果韓國拒不"},{"start":14365.298,"end":14374.391,"text":"我們的這個中國台灣的這樣的民意是不是要求韓國不要取消資本入侵行我們認為"},{"start":14376.656,"end":14403.391,"text":"就是最根本的方法還是要正視我們的立場我們倒不是用憤怒的方式我們是用不斷的跟他諮商一開始他不太理我們最近開始有反應了就剛剛委員講的本來2月就要把那個資本取消他們至少先保留那有些用適緩折元所以我們就開始跟他在交涉那交涉的時候我們也設了一些時間跟方案那也先尊重他讓他知道"},{"start":14404.191,"end":14419.146,"text":"就是說你做什麼我們會做什麼你不做什麼我們大概也會做什麼部長這件事其實我們真的要高調反應你知道台灣是韓國就是它的旅遊市場裡面我們的客源排第幾大嗎"},{"start":14421.703,"end":14445.677,"text":"我們是前三大我們是前三大所以當然我們的反應他們要重視啊當然也許我們不一定要把他搞到說我們今天就抵制韓國不去韓國什麼等之類也不要弄到說好像你去韓國你就變成不愛台灣我覺得不需要做這樣的操作但是"},{"start":14447.538,"end":14460.931,"text":"其實韓國有一種聲音希望南韓政府應該要從善如流改掉對我們的稱呼所以這個已經有產生他們大部分韓國的人也覺得他們政府那樣做就是搞混了我們一年去韓國超過180萬人次我們是他的第三大的客源國"},{"start":14472.122,"end":14480.705,"text":"那當然我們今天就是用比較理性的方式去做溝通那我覺得所以你今天變成是一個變成我們給他改成男孩你當然會被我們自己的網友笑嘛就覺得你這種改名有什麼不痛不癢"},{"start":14488.428,"end":14515.913,"text":"所以我覺得這件事情它既然發生一種啦老蔣我的建議有一種是鴕鳥建議啦就是說你至少紙本你要維持住你讓國人我有機會選擇不然你通通都是用電子入境卡是可能就會覺得說那我到底要去不去我覺得這是老蔣我這種建議是比較鴕鳥式的但是呢我還是希望我們既然要做抗議"},{"start":14516.753,"end":14542.058,"text":"就不要做半套 好不好不然的話你這樣子真的會被國人笑啦好不好 那就絕一點 真的啊改南朝鮮 改高磊啊在歷史上他確實曾經啊什麼大宋高磊 什麼大元高磊什麼都有過啊 對不對我們不希望去開啟這種什麼樣的外交的這種征戰但是呢 我覺得基本的互惠這是必須要維持的 好不好好 對等跟尊嚴對 好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":14547.523,"end":14551.804,"text":"接下來請羅志強羅志強羅志強委員不在請楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請陳青龍委員上台質詢請林部長"},{"start":14575.109,"end":14591.628,"text":"喂好部長好回為八年了都沒有跟我們部長在對話了在議事廳上執行所以整整八年了那今天"},{"start":14592.659,"end":14618.079,"text":"我對部長針對我們今天已經有好多外委員針對我們把韓國對我們的入境從去年2月其實就更改了但是到現在我們外交部終於有動作那部長今天也直接對外媒體在委員會的詢問通通都改稱為南韓了"},{"start":14620.501,"end":14633.769,"text":"好 那肯定補責嘛那再來 我想我們一直主張的就是我們要相互尊重平等對待 對不對那你現在給"},{"start":14634.881,"end":14661.077,"text":"南韓3月31號希望他有一個回應如果他根本不管你呢那我們外交部有沒有更積極的作為好 剛委員報告我們是從3月1號開始啊把這一個南韓的這個在台的僑民啊這個拘留證你先改了嗎對 先改了嘛對那再來就是我們當然是這個入境啊"},{"start":14662.338,"end":14671.365,"text":"就電池這個卡的登錄那個表所以我們外甲不能做到這樣子但是我們現在知會的地方韓國"},{"start":14673.533,"end":14701.753,"text":"南韓還是原來的電子路路徑還是一樣全南台灣那資本給你保留他就是這樣的作為你外交部就吞了吧不會不會啦我們就略三略底之前他要回應我們不是只是現在這個情形的保留你有把握嗎我沒有辦法說超支在我百分百但超支在我的部分啊我就是把它做到百分百好"},{"start":14703.614,"end":14720.899,"text":"這個就看我們外交部怎麼作為好 看外交部的作為今天很多委員也提到了我們在美國伊朗中東戰爭這個部門關於撤僑護僑這件事應該都提出很多的討論 已經很多的討論那我現在直接問部長"},{"start":14729.963,"end":14744.63,"text":"到今天為止我們在中東在這樣的一個戰爭維繫之下我們還有多少僑民或是我們的國人同胞要回來台灣還沒有回來到目前為止還有人嗎"},{"start":14745.45,"end":14760.329,"text":"沒有 因為我們有公佈三個數字嘛已經協助回來的然後有續住的有啊 我們有公佈現在將近三千人了對 我們都隨時密切注意至少我們在地的這一些僑民"},{"start":14762.432,"end":14777.578,"text":"我們都掌握到他們目前是沒有我們都主動聯繫是不是但至於說觀光旅遊因為有出有進進進出租又有一些新的我們現在也請交通部跟觀光署跟旅行社能夠密切聯繫把這個資訊跟我們同步"},{"start":14781.36,"end":14796.538,"text":"保護你們國人在海外人生生命的安全碰到這樣的一個戰爭或是這個緊急的狀況外交部當然就是第一線要來擔負起這個責任那過去"},{"start":14801.303,"end":14812.15,"text":"我們對包機啊我們也曾經有包機過嘛對包括過去我的資料來講過去我們曾經在在這個"},{"start":14814.537,"end":14838.302,"text":"俄羅斯戰爭還有在以色列跟哈馬斯的衝突我們曾經都有這樣的一個例子但是這一次在我們的中東每一個戰爭我們根本把這個包機讓國人可以回來這個部分我們把它列為甚至沒有把它列為備案都直接"},{"start":14839.983,"end":14865.685,"text":"做保持說有聯繫協助更改機位更改航班做這樣的當然這很多是旅行團的我知道你早上已經解釋很多但是我要談的今天我們不管旅行團不管國人他可能透過國際友好國家包括日本就是有協助我們了解但是我們有部分是由大陸這邊幫忙好"},{"start":14867.706,"end":14878.673,"text":"為了國人的生命安全其實能夠平安的回到台灣是最好的但是我這邊就要有一點還是要跟我們執政黨做一個說明明明回來了我們還是要用任職作戰來處理"},{"start":14885.482,"end":14902.95,"text":"還是要用任職作戰來處理包括部長你早上也提包括我們講南韓韓國我們有一些網路的聲音部長還是會把他導引說這是網民的任職作戰等等等我在這裡講部分啦 一開始不是啦我覺得我們做一個執政黨我們還是要很正面的很正面的去處理我們國人同胞的安全"},{"start":14912.054,"end":14938.157,"text":"所以我在這邊強烈建議我們以後過去有日本合作有一個經驗我們也曾經透過美國的幫忙我們外交部應該要有一個跨國的協作來精進保護我們的國人同胞在國際上國外有生命危險立刻要護橋撤橋能夠來做一個SOP一個標準的一個這個流程"},{"start":14939.258,"end":14960.702,"text":"部長這樣OK嗎我跟委員報告幾點第一點行政院是有召開過會議有關於要不要包機或鑽機去所謂撤僑或護僑但是後來行政院的決定並沒有這是行政院的決定我們都是準備的我們的外交部應該要去把這個我要跟委員報告的是其實我們的管處跟美日"},{"start":14969.243,"end":14993.696,"text":"歐 這些國家都有協調 歐洲參與歐洲參與所以讓我們台灣人一家一家的性命安全讓他們安全 真的我們台灣就是我們最重要的國家我跟委員舉這個例子 比如說以色列我們是隨時跟其他國家派駐的大使館你一切都在做你講的那個跨國協作我們會把它當作重點因為我們自己做不到的有些有門可能國安法這樣下去做"},{"start":14996.437,"end":15011.208,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝部長好 謝謝接下來請鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在請蔡易瑜蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢主席麻煩請部長請林部長"},{"start":15032.503,"end":15050.317,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長我們先從美洲這邊開始講起直接問我們在中南美有過去許多邦交國最近有沒有可能有沒有機會來去復交或者是來拓展加一個邦交國"},{"start":15052.078,"end":15070.271,"text":"報告委員這個是我們努力的方向那當然現在天時地利人和也比較具足可是因為這個建交或涉觸也涉及到雙方面我想各自政府可能也要有內部還有很多配套那當然因為現在的美國政府重視西半球"},{"start":15071.191,"end":15096.901,"text":"你也知道川普總統剛剛在邁阿密開過所謂美洲之盾也把一些理念相近國家召集馬克.魯比歐國務卿更是積極在推動他們也都對台灣在當地國家如果有設大使館或代表署都有發揮很好的功能這也是符合美國現在的政策所以剛剛講所謂加一我們也是同步在進行"},{"start":15098.802,"end":15111.656,"text":"當然我們是希望基於兩國是長久的這種關係而不是一時然後為了要增加數字上的變化所以確實是都有在推動當中"},{"start":15113.979,"end":15136.064,"text":"好那就是有樂觀的可能性就是我們可以樂觀的預期說有機會在林部長的任期內增加邦交國我們會努力好謝謝那接下來我談一下玉山論壇玉山論壇這幾天有邀請到許多重要的國際的政治人物來訪那包含波蘭前總統這個華勒莎"},{"start":15139.105,"end":15166.43,"text":"他是在前天的御山論壇表示他說在當前的幸運局勢下中華民族必須統一團結等等等等然後由台灣引領中華民族的統一等等我想請教一下部長對這個的看法是怎麼樣為何我們邀請的這些訪兵他跟地區盛行的主流民意是脫節的而且我們不只是讓他脫節讓他講出來之後我們甚至還要宣傳強化這樣子的說法嗎我想請部長來簡單回應一下"},{"start":15168.318,"end":15190.317,"text":"報告委員如果你詳細去了解華勒莎總統她的所有的談話其實她有幾點重點第一個她反共她認為共產黨跟共產主義應該要消失也不可能成功第二點就是反對武力解決衝突包括戰爭所以要用和平的手段第三點她是認為台灣要積極"},{"start":15192.438,"end":15210.927,"text":"因為我們的成功的模式不是說所謂的統一這些東西的翻譯是有問題的它是意思是說它講的是一個華人社會的概念因為它也看到我們就是說在一些不管是各種的族群 膚色 語言上面所以我們怎麼樣積極的 有創意的"},{"start":15215.029,"end":15242.526,"text":"改變跟中國的關係而且他相信我們會勝利而他甚至講他一生都要為這個來奮鬥站在台灣的這一邊就是我覺得聽了也是有他自己整套他的團結公聯的經驗他說當時蘇聯多強我們他都可以不用戰爭最後能夠得到波蘭的獨立跟民主化那台灣現在的實力也在這個不在這個之下甚至更有機會"},{"start":15243.747,"end":15265.285,"text":"我覺得這是一個比較正面的不是說要去統一或是什麼這樣的一個方式去論述的如果詳細一點完整來看你剛剛講的我同意第一個它是反共的然後第一個你剛剛提到這個說引領就用我們的軟實力用我們的民主的經驗然後結合波蘭過去的經驗這些我都理解但是我必須要強調當他說出這樣子的"},{"start":15268.467,"end":15288.701,"text":"特別是跟民族相關所謂的中華民族相關的話某種程度就會被用於中共的這種敘事模式裡面他沒有要專注在你剛才講的他要專注在他講的中華民族的部分什麼統一的部分但我必須要強調你台灣你自己自我認同怎麼樣我們不會去一一的來去干預每一個人的自我認同"},{"start":15289.301,"end":15309.663,"text":"但是2300萬人民裡面有許多他專注在鞏固台灣也就是說台灣是我們的共同的一個identity所以我們不見得是要照他的這個什麼中華民族的這種identity下面去做自己身份認同那這樣子的說法某種程度會誤導國際大眾那我認同剛才部長講的每一句話"},{"start":15310.484,"end":15339.25,"text":"包含這個反共他希望說是共產主義這一種等等來去消滅等等這些都可以但是重點要強調我們對自己的認同就是台灣那你再講到中華民族的話等於是說把我們過去剩一二十年想要建構自己主體的部分某種程度是有點削弱那當然他的這個利益是良善的那他有他自己理解台灣的一個狀況不過我報告委員他講那個Chinese nations是複數"},{"start":15343.264,"end":15357.291,"text":"他的概念不像我們生活在這裡的區別很多而且我們自己的認同我想他有提到一個觀念我覺得是自由他認為自由是一切的基礎共產主義是不可能允許自由"},{"start":15357.851,"end":15379.487,"text":"就是說台灣在這方面讓他感受到這也是歐洲後來蘇聯倒了之後整個歐盟形成也是一個跨國家的另外一種制度安排因為我跟他談得比較深他甚至講過他一生沒有到過去中國中國各方邀請他他的條件就是他要在天安門事件的現場"},{"start":15382.406,"end":15407.899,"text":"去講出對這個被屠殺的這一些人就是在那邊要說話他們連怕就怕是不敢去所以他是一個蠻有趣的就是說蠻有他是一個style的所以我是覺得不用有時候陷入到一個因為媒體當然抓標題有時候他的需要不過我覺得我想他這次來其實整體來講"},{"start":15410.283,"end":15416.34,"text":"是有讓玉山論壇我想他的這個角色跟重要性發揮出來"},{"start":15417.52,"end":15444.234,"text":"好 謝謝部長 但是我還是強調我們台灣自己的主權我們沒有要追求跟中國任何他講到的什麼中華民族的追求這種統一的對 他也很討厭跟尊重我們我不會 我不做此想那我也不希望說這樣子的說法被過度詮釋那我們重心還是一樣我們未來在這個不管是預算論壇或者是改革安論壇等等的時候我們可能要注意一下哪些"},{"start":15445.014,"end":15473.607,"text":"可能會被中共作為曲解或者是拿來做他們的大外宣用我們自己也要注意不然變成說我們好不容易辦好的找這麼多這種國際有影響力的政治人物來的時候反而走向對我們比較不利的地方我覺得這個會比較可惜好那第二個部分想請教部長這一次的中東的這一個衝突在中東衝突發生之前包含美國跟以色列有沒有透過外交渠道先讓我們有預先的防範"},{"start":15475.12,"end":15500.351,"text":"我們是都密切注意到底川普總統什麼時候會打會不會打打了之後的情形所以當然他打是沒有告訴我們說什麼時候打不過我們的綜合研判這個是會打的所以大概對我們來講也在危機的應變裡面已經有做一些就是一些想定一些劇本"},{"start":15504.352,"end":15524.221,"text":"OK所以我之所以講這個事情是因為說我們希望說現在如果沒有這樣子的渠道的話那可能不見得是在公開講但是說如果未來能夠爭取我們的盟友在做任何大型的可能會影響到周遭國家或者是全球的因為貿易影響等等的話"},{"start":15524.861,"end":15540.799,"text":"能夠有事先的就是你也可以說under the table的這種渠道讓我們能夠有所預備那特別是在假設特別要撤僑或者是做一些相應的防範的時候我們會更有準備我覺得不管他們願不願意給我們都要有這個要求在"},{"start":15541.6,"end":15563.291,"text":"特別如果真的是把我們沾很重要的盟友的話我相信這是對彼此之間都會互惠的那如果事先得知這些訊息的話甚至我們可以事先來協助美方在我們的能力的範圍之下那我想這都對我國未來不管是在貿易談判軍事採購等等都會有所幫助讓他們知道我們是真正的沒有特別是對美國這個我覺得我們可以做那最後"},{"start":15564.251,"end":15586.846,"text":"總和外交部長是非常重視的那外交部去年10月有成立無人機外交的小組那這一個部分要透過也是榮邦計畫嘛來推動無人機學院推動友邦捐贈飛手栽培認證接軌等等的那我這個是非常認可的因為我們嘉義民雄航太園區未來也是無人機培訓未來也是需要媒合的一個重點"},{"start":15587.486,"end":15603.513,"text":"所以既然部長有這樣子的宏願就是把這個外交部那人人都是外交官部部都是外交部就是等於是說把經濟安全上面領域你都要做到這個能夠來協助的部分那我就希望說接下來外交部可以更主動的跟中科院來談"},{"start":15604.693,"end":15626,"text":"合作或者是協助的方向那特別是比方說中科院最近有三次來去跟對外公開說明未來無人機航太園區包含一些招標的期程未來廠房的這個配置實驗室的配置等等可是這是中文嘛所以上次我在行政院長質詢的時候我特別希望說外交部來協助首先把各國的把語言翻譯"},{"start":15626.9,"end":15640.737,"text":"提供給歐洲、美國、日本這些相關可能會進駐的新創團體我覺得這是很有幫助的也就是我們讓更多人知道說米雄航太園區現在是歡迎各個國家的創新、新創的團隊進駐威恩基產業的團隊進駐"},{"start":15643.76,"end":15667.235,"text":"那其實包含SHELL AI、ANDROID等等這些全部都是現在美國等於是創新破壞性科技的新科技的這些無人載具的公司那我們不把它當成是就我們只找成熟的其實有一些新創創新的這些公司它甚至還沒有成型但是如果我們可以提供像是民用航站園區相關這樣的資訊的話等於是一個很好的服務益趣這個部分部長可不可以簡單來回應我們一下"},{"start":15668.896,"end":15685.683,"text":"報告委員 確實如你所說 台灣發展無人機是我們國家的政策在外交上面我們去推動成立無人機外交 還有包括一些國際的學院也是基於龍幫計畫"},{"start":15687.403,"end":15698.644,"text":"的需要我們台灣有很好的法規制度然後也有場域的經驗然後另外很多的未來的檢測認證然後到我們現在雅創包括整個產業聚落"},{"start":15701.008,"end":15725.002,"text":"這個確實是現在外賓來參訪很想去嘉義的一個地方所以在這個部分呢我們已經有具體的規劃那也透過龍幫計畫比如說我們現在很多的人才訓練我們就可以在台灣以及在他們那個國家設立一些分處甚至我們也可以跟美國合作這個都在進行一個所謂外交因為很多國家"},{"start":15725.822,"end":15740.875,"text":"都透過我們的館處跟我們講說想跟台灣交流所以這個是包括美國當然那個考察團事實上在兩年前我也帶團到歐洲就是那個無人機商機拓展的這個聯盟也確實後來得到很好的效果包括在波蘭"},{"start":15742.396,"end":15769.305,"text":"這個立陶宛跟這個拉脫維亞等地不然我補充一點就是說因為他們的這一個要邀請各個國家的團隊進駐的時候有包含他們要跟他們解釋各種稅務上面的優惠土地政策的土地稅收等等的就是優惠跟這些國外的這些廠商希望他們來進駐嘛那我們現在除了國內我們當然也很歡迎國內但是特別是跟美國的關係如果能夠合資合建合造的話那"},{"start":15770.245,"end":15795.452,"text":"效果會更好所以我希望說不要把它當成是中科院的事情外交部能夠主動把它當成是一個專案那跟中科院來談一下看怎麼樣把這個東西再把它擴大我們現在不是只有民雄航太園區包含在太保的這個亞創等等還會有在這個海邊的這個包含無人載具就是水面上水面下的無人載具等等所以它是一個很宏觀的東西我是希望說部長可以主動來掌握"},{"start":15796.232,"end":15824.869,"text":"自己當成是一個發起的一個對象不要讓他都讓中科院因為中科院還是負責研究維持嘛因為工研院現在也積極的在推動無人機也是未來我想在產業創新合作上跟國際接軌啊其實他是在尤其是兩用的這些無人機居民兩用方面的一個角色也是非常重要我們會重視我這樣聽起來不然你是願意就是開始跟中科院之間開始建立一下"},{"start":15824.909,"end":15853.239,"text":"有有有 我上次廚房也有找他們院長一起去包括漢祥 包括所有這些因為林文委員說的其實您應該了解我當交通部長的時候那個無人機的這個納入名昂好的專章然後到怎麼跟嘉義合作然後今天然後整個發展剛好我還在扮演外交部的角色所以無人機外交會是我們這個階段的一個推動的重點也非常的成熟國際也想跟我們合作"},{"start":15853.399,"end":15872.914,"text":"可能先把我們這個手冊pamphlet就是關於那個英文化第一優先然後再來就因為其實有很多日本的廠商也有興趣日本 英文還有一些主要的歐洲的語言這樣好 謝謝我們再施下一個請教好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請葉元之委員上台質詢"},{"start":15892.293,"end":15894.019,"text":"主席好我們先請林部長請部長"},{"start":15903.224,"end":15925.502,"text":"現在外交部針對韓國電子路徑卡把我們變成China跨乎台灣提出反制嘛對不對現在是要在那個現在這個反制做法第一不是說要在僑民的那個拘留證上面現在改成南韓嘛我想先確定一件事情因為南韓他現在是把我們標示為China跨乎台灣"},{"start":15926.323,"end":15953.644,"text":"然後把對岸標示為China 跨乎PR然後香港或澳門他是把後面是跨乎PR China所以看得出來就是他其實把台灣跟中國大陸、香港、澳門已經有所區隔了那現在外交部的立場是希望他把就是南韓我們現在也叫南韓把台灣變成The Republic of China還是台灣"},{"start":15954.705,"end":15974.222,"text":"還是The Republic of China台灣還是怎麼樣因為在我們台灣裡面這個包括我們政府也都對我們這國家也好幾種稱呼啊有時候中華民國有時候中華民國台灣有時候台灣那你是希望那個韓國是要標示哪一個是以哪個為主還是三個隨便一個都可以"},{"start":15974.997,"end":16002.956,"text":"因為他現在是說你的下一個目的地跟你上一個這個地點這個把他寫成China他人家以為我們是要去中國啊沒有台灣啊你要說中華民國當然也很好啊所以如果是ROC是OK嘛ROC是OK的然後ROC台灣因為現在世界上認定的那個China尤其他這樣列法那當然就是我先確定一下嘛所以"},{"start":16005.037,"end":16018.152,"text":"他可能就是少了RO啦如果他是ROC然後台灣你就OK啦但是他如果是他如果是China 跨乎台灣因為實際上"},{"start":16020.294,"end":16031.417,"text":"應該也不會搞錯因為上面就是有寫台灣嘛因為我們的英文名稱也有China嘛The Republic不能這樣解釋那以後全世界都包容我是要跟你確認啦我是要跟你確認說你是希望變成怎樣"},{"start":16036.559,"end":16053.007,"text":"就是ROC可以然後ROC台灣也可以然後台灣也可以嘛所以你是用這種最簡單台灣就是台灣所以你是用這種方式跟他交涉但是不能China就直接台灣這樣人家會誤會誤會說是別的地方嘛對 目前會誤會因為為什麼我要這樣問呢因為我是不知道說外交部到底就是我們政府有沒有一個跟全世界的國家一致性的說法就是說你們以後稱呼我們就要稱呼什麼"},{"start":16064.353,"end":16084.113,"text":"那剛剛的部長去目的地是去台灣不是去中國的台灣剛剛部長的講法是說三個都可以啦三個都可以中華民國 中華民國台灣台灣都可以那其他國家到底知不知道這件事啊大部分的國家都叫我們台灣啊你以為目的地去台灣喔丹麥就不是啦這個是其實是比較正常的啦所以你是用目的地來"},{"start":16085.274,"end":16097.739,"text":"在抗議而不是以國家名在抗議你是以目的地是因為他把目的地搞錯怕我們的這個人家會搞錯地方去錯地方你是基於這個原因去抗議不是因為他把我們的國家搞錯"},{"start":16101,"end":16120.592,"text":"因為你剛剛一直在扯目的地嘛所以部分是因為這個原因所以這是目的地的原因那你就是要跟大家講 全世界講到底稱呼我們什麼我覺得要講清楚那像比如說像丹麥的2020他是把國籍啦他是國籍 不是目的地他是國籍他把台灣改成中國那你也有抗議嘛"},{"start":16121.252,"end":16127.896,"text":"駕照或者是其他的證件都會受影響那個部長我會講喔丹麥是不是 葛雲南是不是丹麥的還是美國的部長我現在只是講說就是我們也支持你去抗議但是你要讓人家知道說什麼是可以什麼是不行嘛對啊如果是目的地的話那要寫清楚不然會走錯地方如果國籍的話那到底你要寫什麼對不對在我們這邊你們"},{"start":16150.988,"end":16166.441,"text":"政府就講三種說法其他國家更不會知道啊所以第一個你要講清楚嘛然後第二個我覺得我也不希望說我們跟南韓變成一種惡意螺旋那之前南韓的總統尹錫悅在宣布戒嚴的時候然後執政黨、民進黨黨團"},{"start":16168.743,"end":16196.329,"text":"就PO了篇文章 他說南韓總統尹錫悅為了守護自由憲法宣布戒嚴然後說什麼南韓國會被親北韓勢力操控就是發文附和附和之後自己可能也覺得好像太見獵心喜把它刪掉但問題是南韓很多人就對這個很不滿奇怪了 我們國家被宣布戒嚴這是破壞民主的事情你們台灣的執政黨的國會居然在附和尹錫悅"},{"start":16197.557,"end":16218.305,"text":"那所以這個事情後來也不了了之啦我也沒看到好像民進黨有對這個事情做什麼處分但是當時南韓的輿論就對這件事情非常不滿啊就覺得執政黨怎麼這樣我們被戒嚴欸那麼違反民主的事居然台灣在執政黨附和很不爽啊那這個事情"},{"start":16219.715,"end":16233.323,"text":"今天這個事情當然他如果做一些事情我們不OK我們去抗議我覺得正常可是也不希望說一直敵意螺旋所以我們對於南韓除了有一些比較負面的互動之外你們也積極的想要化解一些敵意有沒有"},{"start":16233.854,"end":16262.608,"text":"我們是溝通溝通再溝通我們都是真的是希望大家能夠針對這個問題來解決所以他們本來是因為入境這個電子卡要整合紙本現在先暫停有這個時間我們才正視我們的問題所以我們不希望這樣的一個所謂的登記卡或者是去影響到"},{"start":16265.51,"end":16291.849,"text":"我知道你的做法我沒有說不OK我現在講的是另外一個層面我是說因為最近好像跟南韓有一些比較負面的新聞出來外交部這邊有沒有也很積極的去跟李在民政府或什麼做一些比較正面的互動有沒有我們那個邱高偉代表以前是我當總統他是第三局局長他層次很高都有跟他們交涉現在至少見得到人以前"},{"start":16293.188,"end":16317.083,"text":"所以在跟南韓 他的外交部連科長都不見你啊而且很多公文的往來真的是超乎我們一般外交的規範在處理的那如果變好的話不是單一事件但是我們在這個事情上要有一種如果有往好的方向那理論上來講電子入境卡這個事情就應該很好解決啊那為什麼會拖得那麼久"},{"start":16317.743,"end":16343.954,"text":"拖了一兩年因為你們是從去年開始就在跟韓國交涉了所以感覺上應該可能跟韓國關係也不是你講這麼好的也有很好的地方啦真的我們也是在各個產業上也是有合作觀光旅遊文化各方面都有然後剛剛前面的委員也有問我們現在能不能增加邦交國因為我一直在什麼自由時報看到洪都拉斯的新聞"},{"start":16345.174,"end":16362.626,"text":"他很關心那個洪都拉斯白蝦賣得好不好嘛然後就一直講說洪都拉斯自從跟台灣斷交之後那個白蝦賣不出去啊什麼的然後兩個禮拜前啊洪都拉斯的議長說要希望重新與台灣恢復外交關係那外交部這邊有沒有什麼回應啊"},{"start":16364.929,"end":16370.053,"text":"對洪都拉斯人家都那麼正面了我們也做好準備但是他們國家政府的決定什麼樣的一個決定我們當然是也都會溝通所以外交部這邊的態度是"},{"start":16379.281,"end":16408.104,"text":"反正我們就看看他怎麼說白蝦賣不出去受不了來找我們不是白蝦是台灣模式其實阿斯普拉總統他很重視是醫療教育跟創造就業這三項他競選政見他最重視我的問題是說針對建交這件事他們都已經有國內都那麼多呼籲我們是有積極的去接觸還是說我們暫時按兵不動我們都有在持續溝通中所以你會有有什麼信心嗎就是"},{"start":16409.084,"end":16429.312,"text":"前民進黨委員在問 水到渠成是洪都拉斯還是其他國家因為說實在中國跟之前洪都拉斯的政府卡斯楚他們到底簽了些什麼東西也是要釐清這個都是他們需要一點時間 因為有對外講"},{"start":16430.892,"end":16439.8,"text":"然後華為在那邊的影響力也是很大所以你的意思說沒有像只有10%他們想樂觀還是有一些因素我們應該說我們也是好 這樣就繼續努力好 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那當然"},{"start":77.444,"end":101.703,"text":"所以我們是希望基於兩國是長久的這種關係而不是一時然後為了要增加數字上的變化所以確實是都有在推動當中好 那就是有樂觀的可能性就是我們可以樂觀的預期說有機會在林部長的任期內增加邦交國"},{"start":103.144,"end":118.294,"text":"我們會努力好謝謝那接下來我談一下玉山論壇玉山論壇這幾天有邀請到許多重要的國際的政治人物來訪那包含波蘭前總統這個華勒莎他是在前天的玉山論壇表示"},{"start":119.795,"end":144.433,"text":"他說在當前的幸運局勢下中華民族必須統一團結等等等等然後由台灣引領中華民族的統一等等我想請教一下部長對這個的看法是怎麼樣為何我們邀請的這些訪兵他跟地區盛行的主流民意是脫節的而且我們不只是讓他脫節讓他講出來之後我們甚至還要宣傳強化這樣子的說法嗎我想請部長來簡單回應一下"},{"start":146.318,"end":168.318,"text":"報告委員如果你詳細去了解華勒莎總統她的所有的談話其實她有幾點重點第一個她反共她認為共產黨跟共產主義應該要消失也不可能成功第二點就是反對武力解決衝突包括戰爭所以要用和平的手段第三點她是認為台灣要積極"},{"start":170.439,"end":188.928,"text":"因為我們的成功的模式不是說所謂的統一這些東西的翻譯是有問題的它是意思是說它講的是一個華人社會的概念因為它也看到我們就是說在一些不管是各種的族群 膚色 語言上面所以我們怎麼樣積極的 有創意的"},{"start":193.03,"end":220.549,"text":"改變跟中國的關係而且他相信我們會勝利而他甚至講啊他一生都要為這個來奮鬥站在台灣的這一邊就是我覺得聽了也是有他自己整套他的團結公聯的經驗他說當時蘇聯多強啊我們他都可以不用戰爭最後能夠得到波蘭的獨立跟民主化那台灣現在的實力也在這個不在這個之下甚至更有機會"},{"start":221.63,"end":243.288,"text":"我覺得這是一個比較正面的不是說要去統一或是什麼這樣的一個方式去論述的如果詳細一點完整來看市長你剛剛講的我同意第一個它是反共的然後第一個你剛剛提到這個說引領就用我們的軟實力用我們的民主的經驗然後結合波蘭過去的經驗這些我都理解但是我必須要強調當他說出這樣子的"},{"start":246.471,"end":262.752,"text":"特別是跟民族相關所謂的中華民族相關的話某種程度就會被用於中共的這種敘事模式裡面他沒有要專注在你剛才講的他要專注在他講的中華民族的部分什麼統一的部分但我必須要強調你台灣你自己自我認同"},{"start":263.553,"end":287.647,"text":"怎麼樣我們不會去一一的來去干預每一個人的自我認同但是2300萬人民裡面有許多他專注在鞏固台灣也就是說台灣是我們的共同的一個identity所以我們不見得是要照他的這個什麼中華民族的這種identity下面去做自己身份認同那這樣子的說法某種程度會誤導國際大眾那我認同剛才部長講的每一句話"},{"start":288.487,"end":317.454,"text":"包含這個反共他希望說是共產主義這一種等等來去消滅等等這些都可以但是重點要強調我們對自己的認同就是台灣那你再講到中華民族的話等於是說把我們過去剩一二十年想要建構自己主體的部分某種程度是有點削弱那當然他的這個利益是良善的那他有他自己理解台灣的一個狀況不過我報告委員他講那個Chinese nations是互訴"},{"start":319.444,"end":335.314,"text":"他的概念不像我們生活在這裡的區別很多而且我們自己的認同我想他有提到一個觀念我覺得是自由他認為自由是一切的基礎共產主義是不可能允許自由"},{"start":335.874,"end":357.482,"text":"就是說台灣在這方面讓他感受到那這也是歐洲後來蘇聯倒了之後整個歐盟形成也是一個跨國家的另外一種制度安排因為我跟他談得比較深他甚至講過他一生沒有到過去中國中國各方邀請他他的條件就是他要在天安門事件的現場"},{"start":360.41,"end":385.9,"text":"去講出對這個被屠殺的這一些人就是要在那邊要說話他們連怕就怕是不敢去所以他是一個蠻有趣的就是說蠻有他是一個style的所以我是覺得不用有時候陷入到一個因為媒體當然抓標題有時候他的需要不過我覺得我想他這次來其實整體來講"},{"start":388.302,"end":394.326,"text":"是有讓玉山論壇我想他的這個角色跟重要性發揮出來"},{"start":395.543,"end":422.261,"text":"好 謝謝部長 但是我還是強調我們台灣自己的主權我們沒有要追求跟中國任何他講到的什麼中華民族的追求這種統一的這是我們 我們完全不會 我不做此想那我也不希望說這樣子的說法被過度詮釋那我們重心還是一樣我們未來在這個不管是預算論壇或者是改革安論壇等等的時候我們可能要注意一下哪些"},{"start":423.021,"end":451.61,"text":"可能會被中共作為曲解或者是拿來做他們的大外宣用我們自己也要注意不然變成說我們好不容易辦好的找這麼多這種國際有影響力的政治人物來的時候反而要走向對我們比較不利的地方我覺得這個會比較可惜好 那第二個部分想請教部長這一次的中東的這個衝突在中東衝突發生之前包含美國跟以色列有沒有透過外交渠道先讓我們有預先的防範"},{"start":453.124,"end":477.458,"text":"我們是都密切注意到底川普總統什麼時候會打會不會打 打了之後的情形所以當然他打是沒有告訴我們說什麼時候打不過我們的綜合研判這個是會打的所以大概對我們來講也在危機的應變裡面已經有做一些想定一些劇本"},{"start":482.355,"end":502.253,"text":"OK 所以我之所以講這個事情是因為說我們希望說現在如果沒有這樣子的渠道的話那可能不見得是在公開講但是說如果未來能夠爭取我們的盟友在做任何大型的可能會影響到周遭國家或者是全球的因為貿易影響等等的話"},{"start":502.873,"end":518.81,"text":"能夠有事先的就是你也可以說under the table的這種渠道讓我們能夠有所預備那特別是在假設特別要撤僑或者是做一些相應的防範的時候我們會更有準備我覺得不管他們願不願意給我們都要有這個要求在"},{"start":519.611,"end":541.31,"text":"特別如果真的是幫我們沾很重要的盟友的話我相信這是對彼此之間都會互惠的那如果事先得知這些訊息的話甚至我們可以事先來協助美方在我們的能力的範圍之下那我想這都對我國未來不管是在貿易談判軍事採購等等都會有所幫助讓他們知道我們是真正的朋友特別是對美國這個我覺得我們可以做那最後"},{"start":542.271,"end":564.85,"text":"總和外交部長是非常重視的那外交部去年10月有成立無人機外交的小組那這一個部分要透過也是榮邦計畫嘛來推動無人機學院推動友邦捐贈飛手栽培認真接軌等等的那我這個是非常認可的因為我們嘉義民雄航太園區未來也是無人機培訓未來也是需要媒合的一個重點"},{"start":565.49,"end":584.268,"text":"所以既然部長有這樣子的宏願就是把這個外交部那人人都是外交官部部都是外交部就是等於是說把經濟安全上面領域你都要做到這個能夠來協助的部分那我就希望說接下來衛生部可以更主動的跟中科院來談合作或者是協助的方向"},{"start":584.688,"end":604.015,"text":"那特別是比方說中科院那最近有三次來去跟對外公開說明未來無人機航太園區包含一些招標的期程未來廠房的這個配置實驗室的配置等等可是這是中文嘛所以上次我在行政院長質詢的時候我特別希望說外交部來協助首先把各國的把語言翻譯"},{"start":604.895,"end":618.742,"text":"提供給歐洲美國日本這些相關可能會進駐的新創團體我覺得這是很有幫助的有時候我們讓更多人知道說民雄航太園區現在是歡迎各個國家的創新新創的團隊進駐WNG產業的團隊進駐"},{"start":621.764,"end":645.244,"text":"那其實包含SHELL AI、ANDROID等等這些全部都是現在美國等於是創新破壞性科技的新科技的這些無人載具的公司那我們不把它當成是就我們只找成熟的其實有一些新創創新的這些公司它甚至還沒有成型但是如果我們可以提供像是密碼航站園區相關這樣的資訊的話等於是一個很好的呼籲區這部分部長可不可以簡單來回應我們一下"},{"start":646.907,"end":663.946,"text":"報告委員,確實如你所說,台灣發展無人機是我們國家的政策,在外交上面我們去推動成立無人機外交,包括一些國際學院,也是基於榮邦計畫。"},{"start":665.427,"end":676.664,"text":"的需要我們台灣有很好的法規制度然後也有場域的經驗然後另外很多的未來的檢測認證然後到我們現在雅創包括整個產業聚落"},{"start":679.011,"end":703.006,"text":"這個確實是現在外賓來參訪很想去嘉義的一個地方所以在這個部分呢我們已經有具體的規劃那也透過龍幫計畫比如說我們現在很多的人才訓練我們就可以在台灣以及在他們那個國家設立一些分處甚至我們也可以跟美國合作這個都在進行一個所謂外交因為很多國家"},{"start":703.846,"end":718.901,"text":"都透過我們的管處跟我們講說想跟台灣交流所以這個是包括美國當然那個考察事實上在兩年前我也帶團到歐洲就是那個無人機商機拓展的這個聯盟也確實後來得到很好的效果包括在波蘭"},{"start":720.402,"end":747.308,"text":"這個立陶宛跟這個拉脫維亞等地不然我補充一點就是說因為他們的這一個要邀請各個國家的團隊進駐的時候有包含他們要跟他們解釋各種稅務上面的優惠土地政策的土地稅收等等的就是優惠跟這些國外的這些廠商希望他們來進駐嘛那我們現在除了國內我們當然也很歡迎國內但是特別是跟美國的關係如果能夠合資合建合造的話那"},{"start":748.248,"end":773.455,"text":"效果會更好所以我希望說不要把它當成是中科院的事情外交部能夠主動把它當成是一個專案那跟中科院來談一下看怎麼樣把這個東西再把它擴大我們現在不是只有民雄航太園區包含在太保的這個亞創等等還會有在這個海邊的這個包含無人載具就是水面上水面下的無人載具等等所以它是一個很宏觀的東西我是希望說部長可以主動來掌握"},{"start":774.255,"end":802.91,"text":"自己當成是一個發起的一個對象不要讓他都讓中科院因為中科院還是負責研究維持嘛因為工研院現在也積極的在推動無人機也是未來我想在產業創新合作上跟國際接軌啊其實他是在尤其是兩用的這些無人機居民兩用方面的一個角色也是非常重要我們會重視我這樣聽起來不然你是願意就是開始跟中科院之間開始建立一下"},{"start":803.07,"end":829.946,"text":"有有有 我上次出訪也有找他們院長一起去包括漢祥 包括所有這些因為林文委員說的其實您應該了解我當交通部長的時候那個無人機的這個納入名昂好的專章然後到怎麼跟嘉義合作然後今天然後整個發展剛好我還在扮演外交部的角色所以無人機外交會是我們這個階段的一個推動的重點也非常的成熟國際也想"},{"start":831.087,"end":844.128,"text":"可能先把我們這個手冊pamphlet就是關於那個英文化第一優先嘛然後再來就因為其實有很多日本的廠商也有興趣日本英文還有一些主要的歐洲的語言這樣好謝謝我們再試下一個請教"}]}},{"id":"17287","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17287","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc8ecfe646390efd909b56c0bdfc12529c157d0edf07c12ea6e620b28f3c5beadb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及19日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-03-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-03-19T08:38:51+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-19T12:08:59+08:00","duration":12608,"影片長度":"03:30:08","委員發言時間":"08:38:51 - 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各位先進大家早安很榮幸列席貴委會來報告考試院的業務的概況跟立法計畫藉這個機會也感謝委員在過去對本院的各項施政跟法案的支持跟指教完整的業務概況跟立法計畫請各位參閱我們的書面報告在這邊我就簡要說明當中的重點"},{"start":1402.461,"end":1424.74,"text":"那我這個重點就聚焦在大家最關心近期很多討論的公務人力的議題上面公務人力的養成應該是從教考、訓用到留才是一個很長期的過程那這當中有一部分是考試院的無可迴避的權責那當然也有我們行政體系的決策還有我們用人機關必須來共同努力的地方那就本院的權責部分"},{"start":1426.161,"end":1452.555,"text":"因為參加要來當公務員必須參加公務員考試那相較於到民間去應徵呢那考生必須付出因為要備考應試必須付出相對比較高的成本那就這個部分並不利於我們跟私部門來競爭人才所以考試院近年來很積極地推動高普考減科的工作就是把專業科目呢高考從六科變成四科那普考從四科減為三科來降低我們考生的負擔"},{"start":1453.155,"end":1479.882,"text":"也讓這個硬式的科目更能夠聚焦在我們的實際工作的核心職能就這個部分分階段推動在今年會全面上路在這個之後我們地方特考等等這些相同類型的考試也會來比照辦理希望能對考生來講來進入公部門的門檻會比較友善一些另外針對大家都很關心的這個部分的招募人才不易的類科例如說我們公部門的土木工程"},{"start":1480.322,"end":1505.461,"text":"還有我們原民特考的部分科目還有我們民間某些專技人力需求上升的某一些尤其是醫事人員裡面像護理師等等就這個部分我們都很重視我們也跟行政院展開院際的合作我們相關的部會跨院都有組成工作圈一方面我們來重新檢視改革考試的內容一方面也強化了我們教育端跟校園宣導的工作"},{"start":1506.141,"end":1521.961,"text":"那此外為了要符合新世代的這個工具使用習慣我們逐步擴大電腦化測驗的運用這個也是我們這幾年一直在努力的重點那除了考選的部分以外那我們為了強化公職的吸引力我想職等跟待遇當然是很大的重點"},{"start":1522.922,"end":1547.238,"text":"那針對大家的反應就是說基層機關質等太低不利於流財的這些問題去年本院就完成了這個地方政府植物劣等的調整案那這個有590個機關3500個植物受惠那基層的一些很多質等都能夠調升質等調升當然也提高了待遇我們希望這個能夠讓我們尤其地方政府的流財的誘因能夠增加"},{"start":1547.958,"end":1562.109,"text":"那除了職等待遇之外友善職場也是我們很努力的方向我們去年修正了保障法安慰辦法還有這個即時獎勵還有取消指名商調的機關同意權那也增訂了身經調適價跟放寬預升價的這些條件"},{"start":1565.111,"end":1590.783,"text":"那今年這個工作會進入一個深水區就是我們會來做針對烤雞制度做一個全盤的修訂那各界的意見我們都有聽到那周院長也指示我們在周院長指示之下我們這幾個月院裡面做了很多次的討論那現在全訓部的草案正在跟各機關做進行意見交換如果能夠順利的有共識的話我們希望在這個會期就把"},{"start":1591.643,"end":1602.888,"text":"這個法案能夠送到立法院來讓委員能夠審議真的能讓我們的未來的制度能夠做到蔣優泰烈肯定辛勞稱職同仁的功能以上報告進行指調 謝謝好 謝謝劉秘書長的報告那接下來我們就請考選部劉部長報告"},{"start":1614.645,"end":1634.997,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家好城門大院委員隊考選業務隊支持與協助 使各項考選業務得以順利推展今日緊究本部1.14年業務執行情形及1.15年工作重點進行報告1.14年本部辦理20項次國家考試 其中18項次已辦理完均總計公務人員考試入局約18000人 專機人員考試榜試及格約34000人"},{"start":1640.12,"end":1651.532,"text":"在研修考選法制部分本部因應憲法法庭判決修正警察特考等七項考試規則提改警察規定研修高考三級及普通考試規則再進行調整英式專業科目"},{"start":1652.233,"end":1680.835,"text":"研修高考一級等三項考試規則方寬英語檢定成績採樣年限制應考資格等另外本部成立測驗研究中心研議國家考試測驗評量研究發展及測驗技術提升事項並持續推動國家考試數位轉型措施14年預計新增聽力14年以新增聽力試劑語言治療考試施行電腦化測驗國家考試宣導部分本部邀請用人機關共同參與宣導國家考試推動大學國考課程地圖"},{"start":1681.812,"end":1706.167,"text":"以廉潔課程規劃來公職考試科目同時開發國考懶人包以利涉及大眾快速了解相關資訊在115年工作重點部分預定舉辦20項次考試截至115年3月已舉辦3項次考試完略本部將持續配合用人機關需要依考試期程穩健辦理事務工作並適時檢討公務人員考試相關類科應試科目及命題大綱"},{"start":1707.768,"end":1732.721,"text":"此外本部也持續精進測驗技術與試題品質包含執行護理師國家考試試題物精進計畫辦理調整公務人員升官等考試普通科目研究等委託研究案及辦理五類醫師人員對外整體委託等另外115年電腦化測驗將新增驗光人員司法官及律師考試第二次護理師第三次考試採行電腦化測驗"},{"start":1734.562,"end":1747.395,"text":"以繼續推展國考數位轉型、強化電腦化車驗、應試緊急應變處理機制又會鼓勵青年報考公職考試將於教育部青年發展署、雙北市政府青年局"},{"start":1749.011,"end":1773.365,"text":"原住民委員會及教育部研制中心合作宣導國家考試同時也與教育部原住民委員會合作共同培育原住民族公共事務人才最後本部將持續辦理國家考試圍場及數位多功能考場大樓興建工程及優化國家考場環境設施以上報告敬請各位委員繼續給本部支持與指教各項施政重點的詳細內容請參閱書面報告謝謝"},{"start":1777.84,"end":1780.807,"text":"好 謝謝劉部長那接下來我們請學術部施部長報告"},{"start":1787.522,"end":1814.052,"text":"主席 各位很早安本部呢 謝謝這個委員會給我們這個機會其實舊部裡面最近去年到最近所做的一些事情做一個簡單的報告那部裡面當然例行性的工作還是繼續就很多公務人員的任用考期 奉期跟退休撫恤這邊做全息審定的案件那我們繼續持續在辦理這些業務中那去年呢 跟今年呢我們也很多機關"},{"start":1815.152,"end":1841.387,"text":"不斷有一些意見的一個反應所以特別比如說我們在醫事人員這一塊呢也做了一些配合的辦理包括說我們讓衛生行政機關能夠有更多的醫事人員可以來機會來參與這個公共服務的一個機會那我們也準備在修正像醫院的這個各師級比例的一個配置這也是搭配我們公務人員這個值等的一個配置的改變來做這件事情那我想去年這個我們根據這個我們把這個"},{"start":1844.83,"end":1860.666,"text":"育嬰的這個那個那個祖父母呢這個部分也都做了我們在已經完成了這個修正我們的那個育嬰留年辦法相關的一個規定那去年修正通過的這個退服法的相關的規定我們也按照我們說的期程"},{"start":1861.667,"end":1875.932,"text":"在六個月裡面按照我們規劃的期程目前都是很順順利在進行預計也應該會按照我們的一個期程能夠在六個月裡面把這些應該審定的這個審定還能夠完成我想這些比較例行也是重要的事情我先做報告那我想"},{"start":1876.832,"end":1900.046,"text":"我們未來特別在今年我們應該有兩個主要一個重點剛剛院裡面秘書長也報告我想第一個重點我們確實會提出這個考機法的一個修正案的一個進行中那這個案子其實我們從去年上半年就開始做很多內部的討論還有跟機關的一個討論那大概今年開始進入到更正式的一個討論目前部裡面"},{"start":1900.866,"end":1928.341,"text":"已經完成了大概整個大的一個方向還有相關的條文的一個修正案那大概預計呢下禮拜呢我們如果順利的話就會開始正式對機關還有會請機關徵詢他們機關的公務人員事實上我們也會用線上的方式呢徵詢所有公務人員內網的一個線上徵詢公務人員的意見那如果大家覺得可以順利的話那我們就會報到院裡面詢詢徵程序呢再報到立法院來"},{"start":1930.162,"end":1956.725,"text":"來這個審議這是我們部裡面大概今年呢應該是蠻重要一件事情那當然我們也會就任用法的部分呢也做一些必要的一個修正因為任用法裡面有一些呢譬如像我們植物力等調整完以後健身檢的一個可能植物呢這中間的一些資格條件可不可以要再做一些相對應的調整包括有一些訓練的必要性我們都會做充分各式各樣的一個討論那這是部裡面也回應這讓公務人員在"},{"start":1957.706,"end":1976.121,"text":"機關裡面有更友善的一個工作職場然後也重視到機關的用人需求做一些balance的挑戰最後我們的基金大概我們的投資效益也剛好這個外在環境很好所以一切都是非常順利比去年的績效也不遜色甚至還要更好我想以上做這樣一個報告 謝謝好 謝謝市部長的報告那接下來我們請保訓會的蔡主委報告"},{"start":1990.359,"end":2012.426,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早今天非常榮幸的奉邀練習貴委員會承蒙大院對本會的一個支持那以下僅就有兩個部分跟這個主席跟各位女士先生報告第一個就是114年到截至目前為止保訓會暨所屬的國家文官學院做了幾項重要的一個"},{"start":2013.966,"end":2023.375,"text":"創新那除了一個例行性的業務以外呢我們在這些創新以下分就幾個部分跟各位報告第一個在保障法的修正呢去年承蒙這個大院"},{"start":2023.837,"end":2048.334,"text":"的支持所以我們順利的通過並在今年1月9號開始正式實施然後安慰辦法從去年7月1號開始就開始實施這是有關健全友善職場相關法制的落實部分那為了因應這些保障法跟安慰辦法的修正所以本會積極的在這個相關的執法配套措施目前已經完成22項那相關的圖卡及相關的指引目前仍持續在上架當中"},{"start":2049.935,"end":2062.558,"text":"再來就是有關於依法審理公務人員保障事件維護公務人員權利的救濟部分保障案件其實是逐年增加的那114年本會總共辦結了1885件較113年的辦結率增加了4成同時為了協助各機關在進行考積跟懲處案件的答辯的時候能更加的符合這個程序"},{"start":2077.472,"end":2092.405,"text":"我們也協助各機關來制定了這個機關答辯的檢核表加速整個案件的審理然後強化多元的案例分析同時也針對一些行政法案撤銷比較多的一些案例"},{"start":2092.864,"end":2121.513,"text":"然後呢特定所屬機關直接以首長兼函去跟這個相關的機關進行一個溝通那也獲得很順利的一個他們的同意來進行一些制度上的改革在這個法定訓練跟發展性培訓的業務部分呢去年的這一個高普考跟各項特考基礎訓練呢我們總共訓練了6166人叫113年增加了8.5%然後呢精神關等的部分呢在警左升警正的訓練"},{"start":2122.403,"end":2136.582,"text":"跟這個的部分呢 收訊人數較113年有增加那總共去年呢 有新編了80科的一個這個相關 包含了人工智慧課程然後呢 文化政策創新 然後媒體試讀"},{"start":2138.206,"end":2154.756,"text":"等等還有特別是職場溝通與這個職場霸凌的相關的課程好那在115年的部分呢我們最主要的一個重點會放在除了繼續落實保障法安慰辦法還有這個救濟案件的一個機制的一個審理以外更重要的是因為"},{"start":2155.802,"end":2172.143,"text":"今年115年是地方公職人員選舉所以在本會的法定業務行政中立的宣導方面我們會更全面的來擴大而且會善用各式各樣更多的媒體以讓觸及率能夠盡可能的普及到所有公務人員跟相關人員那以上報告敬請指教 謝謝"},{"start":2177.418,"end":2201.103,"text":"好 謝謝蔡主委的報告那麼我們機關代表都已經報告完畢那相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並且會列入公報記錄那麼現在我們就開始進行詢答那本會委員尋答時間是8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員尋答時間為5分鐘並不再延長那上午10點30分截止發言登記首先我們先請登記第一位的陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":2206.941,"end":2208.143,"text":"謝謝主席 有請劉秘書長請劉秘書長"},{"start":2216.303,"end":2237.05,"text":"我今天還是想跟您討論公務員的考機問題剛剛秘書長您也提到了在報告中提到然後程序部的施部長也有提到考機的部分現在你們在積極在研擬一些修法我想先請教秘書長秘書長你目前的工作你有負責打考試院同仁的考機嗎"},{"start":2240.296,"end":2256.856,"text":"考試院首長是院長但是考記的部分我自己有你有在打考記我想請教你你認為打考記是個容易的工作還是不容易的工作對主管來說它也是相當困擾的工作為什麼是困擾呢"},{"start":2257.827,"end":2272.706,"text":"我想最主要烤雞的等地必須讓同仁信服那我們陳時中現在制度面上面烤雞現在加一等的比例分佈這個設計它有一個歷史的演變啦但是這個演變其實在衡量上面並不是很合理有它爭議之處啦"},{"start":2274.726,"end":2298.368,"text":"秘書長我想請教你請問一等到底是好還是不好一等應該基本上是說他也是被肯定所以他才會有獎金只是說我們這個甲跟乙的區別讓大家一等的同仁會覺得好像沒有被肯定最主要是因為甲等比一等多那麼多所以一等的同仁當然會覺得好像沒有被肯定不過基本上他都是稱職合於預期的表現"},{"start":2299.509,"end":2307.373,"text":"秘書長你當然這樣談說一等您覺得是肯定啦所以才有獎金啊但是我們都說是很像鴨子嘛一等就是好像我得了鴨子的這個烤雞啦所以您認為一等是正面的就是在你們定義上是這樣子"},{"start":2316.778,"end":2338.655,"text":"定義上是 但是他這個制度大家覺得比較不合理就是說假等 四分之三的人是假等 四分之一的人是疑等這個劃分 我們覺得需要檢討所以才會要去推動考據法的修正秘書長您說基本上疑等就算是正面了但是最近有一則新聞台中地檢署在上個月被爆出"},{"start":2339.898,"end":2357.545,"text":"他將判決確定的這個詐欺犯 忘記執行長達五年 忘記執行 這個重大疏失吧 這是重大疏失那監察院被監察院糾正 結果地檢署他對承辦人員祭出的懲處竟然是烤雞打魚的"},{"start":2358.745,"end":2377.604,"text":"這麼重大的疏失他是烤雞打疑等那這件事讓基層公務員在網路上炸鍋啦一片罵聲啦那這件事的反應跟剛剛秘書長您談的說疑等基本上是正面的但是這麼重大的疏失他也是被打疑等喔這那麼大的這個新聞秘書長您認為這基層公務員你知道他們為什麼那麼生氣嗎"},{"start":2384.793,"end":2397.507,"text":"你說就這個案子還是對啊 全部炸光啊因為這個新聞下面全部都是基層公務員一片罵聲啊他犯了這麼大的錯但是他考積已等嘛跟很多人一樣嘛其實就考積法來講"},{"start":2403.075,"end":2420.455,"text":"針對表現有重大疏失的同仁其實也有別的處理方式能夠真正的產生警惕所以我想我可以理解大家對這個案子絕對會覺得非常的爭議那這個主管其實運用考機法民主黨那這個是你們職權所及嗎"},{"start":2422.137,"end":2438.973,"text":"呃 這個不是我們職權好 但是我就是讓大家了解齁你選我們來看一些數字好嗎齁請你看這個統計資料這是全序部最新的公開資料喔齁那我們都知道一般的行政公務員他分成委任 建任 檢任三個官等齁那我們先看甲等的部分甲等的這個"},{"start":2440.214,"end":2445.936,"text":"比例你看從這個不同的關等你看減刃是96%減刃是81%委刃是71%我們再來看移等我們也是從減刃他只有3.9%"},{"start":2455.619,"end":2461.064,"text":"兼任是18%委任是將近三成 28.8%那這個統計清楚呈現了我們純粹從這個統計來看官等越高 考積越好秘書長認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":2471.77,"end":2494.611,"text":"會有這個原因喔我先整體講一下就是說這些抱怨 您剛剛講了 異等同仁覺得不公平還有大家認為烤雞官等之間的分佈不一致這些問題 意見我們都聽到那我們想要去全盤修正烤雞法其實也就是因為大家有這麼多的反應跟不平那至於以前為什麼會有這個現象"},{"start":2498.015,"end":2518.777,"text":"我想首長在打烤雞的時候大概也會考慮到每一個人的職責的沉重程度跟他的貢獻所以他就會出現像您講的這個結果但是當然烤雞還是要針對同人就同官等之間的比較這個也很重要不能忽視烤雞法第九條您清楚嘛第九是什麼您知道嗎就是"},{"start":2520.499,"end":2531.366,"text":"還有明定 因為你談到同官等的考積是比較範圍但實際上有沒有落實李子密說你大概看到這些數字你心裡就有數那對基層公務員來說這個形同虛設啦第九條形同虛設現實上就是距離機關所長越靠近的"},{"start":2538.35,"end":2558.303,"text":"這個比較近的檢任官 相對最容易拿到假等基層的 相對比較距離比較遠的 檢任跟委任 那個疑等比率就大幅提升那我想先進的菜鳥 基本上就是疑等所以過去這個做法 相信對員工的 是否是真正公平的評價這個很難讓人家取信吧 畢竟說你同意嘛 你根本覺得有不合理之處吧"},{"start":2562.746,"end":2579.075,"text":"你同意嗎?因為這個我們看到的結果,我們就這個結果來評論那現在就是除了甲乙等之外,我們來看一下那個濱鼎等我們知道他是用來檢討跟汰除不適任的公務員但是也是等於沒作用,無論哪個官等其實他都小於這個"},{"start":2580.276,"end":2603.932,"text":"百分之一啦所以說或是小於0.1所以說公務員是鐵飯碗但是偶爾就會有生鏽的鐵飯碗嘛那有時候還是因為每個機關都有事還有事一旦生鏽當然就不能夠不易使用嘛那每年不適任的公務員真的不到百分之一嗎我們在講講成我們當中就是做一個平衡的來討論民事長你認為目前的烤雞制度真的能夠達到這個獎優太烈的一個目的嗎目前"},{"start":2610.736,"end":2634.045,"text":"真的有需要汰除的呢其實工具也是有的只是說機關文化上敢不敢下手那但是另外一方面我們也不會去否定說認為說公務員裡面一定有幾%是應該每年要汰除的因為過去曾經有這樣的討論那也引起大家很大的抱怨所以就這個部分我想應該是依照實際的狀況如果真的有表現不佳應該要處理的要處理"},{"start":2634.905,"end":2648.215,"text":"秘書長這幾天有一篇新聞麻煩你看一下存緒部有提到要啟動修法那就是公務員這個考積甲等比率你取消上限我先請問秘書長現行的考積法有規定那個甲等比率上限嗎"},{"start":2649.256,"end":2659.722,"text":"現在的法律沒有規定沒有嘛沒有嘛那事實上沒有規定這個上限喔那你所謂的假等不能夠超過75%只是一個潛規則啊潛規則用這麼久那既然這個75不是不是一直都75不是法律嘛它最早大概是應該是三分之一後來變成二分之一後來變成沒有上限後來又變回50為原則75為上限但是法律沒有這一條嘛"},{"start":2674.75,"end":2690.988,"text":"那沒有既然是潛規則你又怎麼透過修法來改呢因為這個標題寫說公務員這個全序部說公務員考積加成比率的這個取消上限我們會設計簡單講我們看各國的考積制度其實應該是蔣優泰烈中間大多數都是認真"},{"start":2692.229,"end":2712.319,"text":"符合預期的同仁他應該得到相對的肯定但是我們現在那條線不應該是切在百分之七十五這個地方那這個長期演變下來的部分讓大家很困擾所以這一次修法等一下我要稍微了解你這次修法的方向那這一次我們會去把那個等地做一個新的設計我想請教一下考積法多久沒有修了"},{"start":2713.059,"end":2717.265,"text":"這樣停滯多久幾十年請問是多久我們去年才修過一小條但是這個製度的部分有多久沒有修了很久了部長多久20年對不起"},{"start":2728.741,"end":2744.09,"text":"如果整個制度來講就76年建立的但是後來有修正個別的條文我們講一個法律有一個大的架構它裡面有一些細節細節都不斷在修但是如果是大的架構"},{"start":2745.111,"end":2763.4,"text":"基本上就是維持76年40年沒有修啦一定沒有辦法我都稱為不只這個領域年久失修啦這個都非常重要包括將來我們司法這個組也會看到的人工生殖法二三十年沒有修所以我想請教這個目前謝謝請回那修法是現在已經完成送立法院或是說你們的進度剛剛是說在進行中嘛那我很重要的一個議題就是說問題就是說有讓基層參與嗎"},{"start":2773.365,"end":2794.224,"text":"你有讓基層公務員參與嗎剛剛部長在報告的時候他在線上等等這個只是邀請是被動式的參與但是法案公告大家就可以表示意見第二個他會我們會有一個問卷線上的那個問卷有嗎有收到基層公務員的意見表達嗎有嗎現在還沒有正要開始進行那我覺得你們應該主動找這個基層公務員團體來開會討論修法"},{"start":2801.145,"end":2815.797,"text":"就說基層公務員的團體參與要很實質的加入總不能永遠是上層的反正得到考機都是假等的人在討論怎麼來修法您同意嗎?您接受這個建議嗎?"},{"start":2816.658,"end":2829.284,"text":"我想這個全局部一定會廣泛徵詢大家的意見我要提醒這個考機法不能閉門照居來修法如果沒有廣大基層的意見未來還是行不通或形同虛設我剛剛已經告訴你為什麼形同虛設最後秘書長我想跟您討論這個警消組工會過去有很多警消兄弟因公殉職他們面對的不是只有危險的工作環境還有這個"},{"start":2838.749,"end":2854.895,"text":"其實不太合理的一個這個勤務制度跟績效制度所以希望能夠組工會來保障自己的權益但是這個部分考試院是反對的只願意修這個協會法那我想請問秘書長為什麼你們會反對這個警消組工會我想知道原因"},{"start":2857.419,"end":2871.705,"text":"警校主任會這個議題有各種意見那考試院因為是協會法的主管機關不是公會法的主管機關那已經有協會法了那你擔心什麼 考試院擔心什麼呢我們當然從我們的角度因為我們主管協會法我們當然會從檢討協會法來著手所以這就是我們為什麼兩度送出協會法"},{"start":2876.827,"end":2892.306,"text":"秘書長如果你們擔心罷工的問題那你就比照那個教師組工會就好啦你們可以有配套措施在勞資正義處理法當中就明定禁止罷工不就可以了嗎你知道所有醫療院所都有工會耶醫療院所都有了你們怕什麼 擔心什麼呢"},{"start":2893.567,"end":2899.249,"text":"這個議題應該是說我覺得社會要有共識啦所以就它是一個我們只要謹慎面對的議題我覺得官員在談談社會共識請問天下什麼事有社會共識呢對不對這個請教這個共識到什麼程度呢基層請交不買單你們的協會法但是畢竟你們這是你們法案那我再請教2024年9月你們已經把這個法案送到這個立法院來請問你有去推動嗎"},{"start":2918.416,"end":2934.111,"text":"你們這一年來你們有拜託召委排案嗎你有去做這個動作嗎還是說交代交差了事我記得我去年在這邊做業務報告的時候我們就有講我們現在在立法院的法案就是協會法所以也請既然送交了就應該去推動嘛"},{"start":2935.512,"end":2963.274,"text":"之前胃環委員會有排審過那個工會法開放警消組工會喔因為我就在那個但是那個主席才是因為當時民進黨立委意見很多主席才是什麼 召委才是說等考試院的協會法出來我們再一起說再一起討論可是你們現在似乎也沒有積極推動那你乾脆就支持工會法去年胃環委員會要求我們兩個月內提法案所以我們就在兩個月之內把法案送到立法院來了"},{"start":2963.914,"end":2981.121,"text":"那我去年在法治委員會也有報告說不是只有送案啦如果你們覺得重要應該積極處理啦這個法案的排審我們就尊重委員會秘書長我的重點就是一個請你們要邀請這個而且要就是讓他們實質能夠基層公務員團體能夠實質參與討論啦這個攸關他們自己的考核現在的協會法現在的草案真的擴大很多的那個權限好謝謝秘書長謝謝委員主席謝謝陳委員"},{"start":3002.677,"end":3007.138,"text":"接下來我們邀請歐小林委員來詢答謝謝謝謝主席那麼先有請劉明書長還有施部長施部長"},{"start":3021.667,"end":3046.216,"text":"委員長阿民署長還有市部長好那麼我剛剛因為已經聽了市部長在你的業務報告裡面有特別提到就是有關於公教退休金停函法案的現在的實施的一個狀況那麼剛剛市部長已經有說這應該是蠻肯定六月底之前可以就是完成新的退休金的審定函吧"},{"start":3047.539,"end":3064.751,"text":"當初委員在質詢的時候我就講過這個事情我們要根據我們的進度所以現在進度到哪裡可以大概很簡單的說一下嗎簡單的說就是說因為我們現在進度到各機關都已經確認說哪些人必須要重申這個是很重要不要漏失掉然後我們系統也幾乎快開發完成了"},{"start":3065.231,"end":3084.349,"text":"所以下個月開始就一旦Ready系統開我們就開始真的進入到實質的那個審定那實質審定大概用個一兩個月的時間我們預計在六月的時候就會開始呢等於是最後還要發給機關去做就確認大概是這樣一個進行方式是 如果是可以的話我當然是希望就是這個相關的作業"},{"start":3085.868,"end":3104.579,"text":"越快越提早完成是越好因為你們情緒部這邊完成之後還要發給各機關各機關作業也可能也還需要兩個禮拜或一個月的時間那麼真正我講對於所有的這個退休的公教人員的期待就是能夠看到7月1號之後他的退休金不再停侃那麼這個部分的話是希望部長這邊還有秘書長這可以就是"},{"start":3113.003,"end":3120.107,"text":"加速還是盡可能的能夠兌現你們的承諾因為我想這個部分其實對於基層的對於一些退休的公教人員來講他們這個一直看到法案通過了但是退休金還是持續扣其實心裡面絕對肯定是不舒服的不愉快的不希望說之後六月之後可能又還會發生其他的一個變化就麻煩施部長"},{"start":3137.495,"end":3150.559,"text":"好那接下來呢我還是在想說談一個議題剛剛其實陳昭志委員這裡有提到有關於就是最近大家很關心的有打烤雞的問題就是公務人員的烤雞的甲等乙等的問題那麼事實上"},{"start":3153.5,"end":3171.692,"text":"我也知道就是這個烤雞制度這麼多年來從民國76年到現在已經差不多快40年了從來也沒有改變過但本席在這裡是有個建議因為你說現在烤雞制度用夾 移 丙 丁的這樣的一個等地方式坦白說已經跟現在的"},{"start":3173.853,"end":3186.179,"text":"這個很多的評鑑的制度啊還有就是連考試打成績啊等等都不會再用甲乙丙丁的這樣的等地制度所以有沒有可能可以去想想看用這其他的這個等地制度來來代替譬如說特優啊優啊就是良好等等的來"},{"start":3193.823,"end":3217.259,"text":"來彰顯他確實公務人員他在考機上面他可能因為他的表現的不同然後會有不同的評價否則大家確實是會覺得說所有都是76%的人公務員都是假等都是一樣好嗎事實上也不見得是一樣好對不對因為有些是表現的特別好但是呢卻因為這個等地制沒有辦法去凸顯出這公務員他其實真的表現非常優良"},{"start":3218.633,"end":3240.027,"text":"還有另外一個就是為什麼這個基層公務人員很在意考積 甲等 乙等這當然跟獎金有關嘛這個說來說去其實也都是跟所有的公務人員的福利待遇有關那你現在你的這個甲等的考積獎金一個月乙等的是0.5個月"},{"start":3241.428,"end":3265.772,"text":"如果你未來就是可以把他這個等地做得更細緻好譬如說多增加幾個等地然後也提高考機獎金我想這個是大家皆大歡喜而且也不會有人會抱怨說那拿特優的就應該拿一個月或是1.5個月那其他的這個普通表現優良的可能就是0.5個月那中間可能有優良的或者是你們可以有一些不同的一個等地標準"},{"start":3266.312,"end":3291.018,"text":"那這樣的話我認為說其實會讓工作人員比較心服口服而不是認為說我今天被打一等那個以的在中國人的概念真的是代表說其實不是那麼好但其實他是有拿到考級獎金的所以這次本席就是給市部長還有秘書長這邊建議可以通盤的去思考我們現在在大學裡面教書都知道學生的成績已經也不是在用100分"},{"start":3292.574,"end":3311.97,"text":"百分比來計算用什麼AA加A減然後ABCD嘛就有不同的這個等級所以我想師傅長您也在大學教書您可能知道就說我們這個整個評分的制度其實有在改變也很希望說是不是接下來在討論考G的這個等地制的時候呢也可以有一些新的思維"},{"start":3312.97,"end":3331.401,"text":"我跟委員報告剛剛陳委員在質詢的時候我們也意識到這已經40年沒有改變了所以部裡面跟院裡面有充分的溝通那其實這是我們從去年周院長在被提名統一權審查的時候他就把這個當成是他兩個"},{"start":3332.702,"end":3357.084,"text":"工作的一個重點那去年應該先處理的是保障法上半年所以下半年我們就積極在討論那整個大的方向是用不同的思考方式如果你問我的話我們是有點重訂考積法的概念不是叫修正考積法所以那個架構應該會跟以前會有很大的不一樣我可以公開這樣我不會再用甲乙丙丁這種概念"},{"start":3358.506,"end":3382.868,"text":"但實際上的狀況一定會要跟各個機關因為最後我們法律怎麼設計執行了還是在機關機關要怎麼執行的順暢務實可行我覺得這個才是一個重點然後接下來公務同仁的一些想法過去的想法當然我自己在政府部門這麼久我當然有聽到我想這個事情很自然會在這一次的"},{"start":3383.854,"end":3402.133,"text":"有點像是比較是重新架構裡面一定會去考慮這些事情那以行政機關的方式大概這樣運作的方式跟委員先做這個報告好 謝謝部長重要的還是要聽這個基層公務員的心聲如果說能夠多辦幾場座談會的話我想會對於就是修正考機制度會很有幫助"},{"start":3402.794,"end":3420.987,"text":"就這點是不是容許我講個幾十秒現在一個方式要聽意見非常多所以我們設計的方式因為所有公務員都有內部網站都有我們叫ECPA的概念我們會透過這個方式就不斷在上面我們會有設計問卷直接push到每一個公務人員就我們的問題"},{"start":3422.78,"end":3437.406,"text":"這個表示我想他的觸及力會遠比其他方式來得快好的OK那接下來我還有另外一個議題喔因為在你們今天的報告裡面其實有談到就是接下來會通案性的調高地方機關還有中央政府機關的"},{"start":3439.525,"end":3458.161,"text":"植物列等来平衡中央与地方的发展那么事实上本席是非常支持这样的做法确实有关于公务员的官职等的重新调配是有必要的但是本席也看到一个问题就是说你们在这次的调整里面你们似乎忽略了学校"},{"start":3459.002,"end":3482.715,"text":"學校機關好像其實我們知道像公立學校不管是從大學中學小學應該都有一些公務員的這個配置可是你們看看就是說這個公務他們就是同樣都是國家考試考試及格的公務員可是卻在因為他服務的機關的不同而以至於他的這個職等這個所列的職等"},{"start":3483.735,"end":3506.161,"text":"有差別同時在升遷的時候呢它的這個天花板其實也不同譬如說你同樣是基層的公務員以組員來講在公立大學高中國中小的組員他最高只能夠升到七職等可是在地方在中央的二級二三級機關的組員就可以升到八職等那在組員專員組長"},{"start":3509.302,"end":3536.517,"text":"邊省秘書主秘處長都是同樣的情況也就是說是往中央或地方機關那裡服務的公務員他的值等的升遷會比在公立大學或是其他學校裡面更為順暢而且可能也更有誘因這個基本上會造成一個問題就是可能在大學裡面和在這些學校裡面公立學校裡面他留不住好的公務員因為大家如果想說我要往"},{"start":3537.077,"end":3550.722,"text":"只等更高的地方去的話就會往其他的機關走所以這邊是不是有可能就是請學習部也一併的考量有關於在公立學校裡面服務的這一群公務員"},{"start":3552.332,"end":3566.411,"text":"他職等可以做一些調整我跟委員簡單的一個包括我們做職務調整一定是先鎖定一些就優先順序啦應該這樣講那所有事情我們意見我們都會參考包括現在我們在學校裡面可能沒有特別這一次在這裡面"},{"start":3567.372,"end":3587.998,"text":"但是這個我們會再跟行政部門好好再討論那學校跟行政機關最大差別學校人比較少啦就是說你也知道學校雖然大部分都是業用人員可是不能把他們當成是公務員孤兒嘛不會當公務員孤兒啦那另外像是醫院裡面的公務員因為一些公立醫院裡面可能也有一些公務員的一些配置在這次的調整裡面他們有調到嗎"},{"start":3590.86,"end":3595.287,"text":"醫院體系裡面有另外一套方式不過我想醫院我們另外一塊體系在處理中"},{"start":3603.649,"end":3622.507,"text":"總之就是說這些都是具有公務員資格的這些人那麼我們希望就是說全區部在調整相關的職等職官等的時候也要注意到公平性一致性不要讓在其他單位服務的這些公務員就覺得好像全區部大小眼"},{"start":3623.247,"end":3648.443,"text":"我們還是很希望說在這次你們調整裡面能夠把這些學校裡面的公務員能夠一併納入接下來還有一個問題就是剛剛其實也有提到的公務員結社權的問題公務員這次因為考試院也提出公務人員協會的修法那裡面又特別提到就是要成立特種"},{"start":3649.804,"end":3663.345,"text":"公務人員協會那你們現在是因為不允許警察司法醫事等等專業人員去組成跨機關的協會所以呢才特別要增加這個特種公務人員協會是嗎"},{"start":3665.271,"end":3680.624,"text":"對 就是當時是針對就是說因為我們現在是以機關為主體所以就變成那個地方的消防同仁他們的反應他們就只能參加縣市政府的協會那縣市政府有沒有協會當然會變另外一個問題那第二個是他們的意見沒有辦法反映所以我們就做了這樣的設計"},{"start":3681.485,"end":3710.524,"text":"是 那既然說你們都考慮到就是說是基層的警察 消防等等這些人員他們有這個強烈的希望能夠組織協會的這樣的需求可是呢你們你們放寬的部分項目可是卻在草案的第七條裡面還是說有一些排除的情況簡單來說就是如果說當涉及到像待遇值等薪資等等這些條件或者是說像警察人員"},{"start":3711.986,"end":3722.565,"text":"最在意的就是有關於像裝備的汰換還有危險加急等等這些難道他們在你們接下來的修法裡面到底可不可以列為協商事項"},{"start":3724.738,"end":3744.634,"text":"我跟委員報告,不管是公會或是協會,因為我們台灣有個很大的特色,我們內部的人力資源管理制度幾乎都是在法律明定,簡單的說法律寫實了啦,既然是法律寫實了,大概就不太適合作為協商的事項,那可以做的是什麼,它可以透過這個過程來表達,"},{"start":3746.616,"end":3765.609,"text":"譬如說也許哪些法律不夠好不夠好那可以怎麼一個修正比較會是這樣一個方式啦我想跟委員做這樣一個報告但是如果說只是這樣的話其實我就感受到但是協商的事項還是有放寬的成意不足嘛基本上我們當然希望就是未來他們能夠組織協會之後能夠針對與這些警消人員有關的權益的事項能夠刺激的表達"},{"start":3772.774,"end":3801.224,"text":"但是你們現在在第十條裡面有講到如果說它涉及到公共安全的問題的話那又排除但是就像我們剛剛說的像是裝備汰換難道不重要嗎在你們自己的修法裡面就講說如果說是警察機關駐地安全維護相關設施執行各項警務的警力配置警用裝備攜帶的實機警用的槍械與防彈背心採購等等這些事項是不可以提出協商的"},{"start":3803.043,"end":3829.194,"text":"這細節的東西其實在這種過程裡面我們會很跟譬如說主管機關是內政部這邊的一個討論所以細節的部分是不是這樣子我想可能我理解這樣因為有些部分是可以再做討論的有些協商事項涉及到公共安全所以它就不能夠列為協商就像我們剛剛講像警察的這個防彈背心它是很重要這種採購的部分或是要採購哪些為什麼不能夠加入協商我想定義上應該不是這個意思啦"},{"start":3830.034,"end":3856.257,"text":"應該說那個部分因為採購設計採購後面的程序你們自己的修法理由這是本席在這裡看到的一個問題點希望說能夠既然我們要修公務人員協會能夠讓這些警消司法警察人員可以組織特種協會的話當然就希望能夠更開放讓他們有更多的權利可以有一些談判協商的事項然後最後一個非常小的問題就是說"},{"start":3858.67,"end":3878.412,"text":"我們知道身心障礙者權益保障法裡面其實有談到如果因為身心障礙者提前老化的話中央勞工主管機關應該要建立身心障礙勞工的提早退休的機制來保障他的退出職場的生活品質那麼這個是在身心障礙者權益保障法裡面的規定"},{"start":3879.053,"end":3902.001,"text":"那么现在就是有一些公务人员他有身心障碍的情况的公务人员他提出的问题就是说我们目前在公务人员退休之前抚恤法里面的规定是只有规定就是这些公务员身心障碍的公务员他如果要申请自愿退休必须任职满15年而且要符合所谓重度以上的等级"},{"start":3902.481,"end":3926.368,"text":"就是他身心障礙等級要符合重度以上等級可是我們知道有些像是中度的身心障礙的公務員他可能鑑定的結果沒有達到重度但是隨著年齡的老化他的體能生理狀況其實早就已經沒有辦法去負荷這種高強度的行政工作所以我們在這裡是不是建議就是說考試院學習部這邊也可以一併的去思考"},{"start":3927.168,"end":3942.207,"text":"有關於這個中度重度這個之間是不是可以再多列一個標準那麼可以讓一些可能這個偏向重度但他還不到重度的這些公務員也可以讓他們有提前提早退休的機會"},{"start":3943.615,"end":3960.011,"text":"我跟委員報 重度現在大概法律本來就有講不過中度可以經過一定的評估不過委員的意見我想我帶回去再跟同仁再好好看看說這中間有沒有可能需要應應實務上的一個需要哪些部分也許可以再做一些討論但是這個真的是一個要相當謹慎的一個議題啦"},{"start":3961.653,"end":3986.048,"text":"好那我希望說你們回去可以好好討論一下這個議題那是不是也可以請你們給我一份報告就是說到底目前在公務體系公教體系裡面有多少的是屬於身心障礙的這樣的公務員然後達到周度以上的有多少位事實的部分我先提供給委員但是至於那個討論的部分可能沒有辦法那麼那麼有一個結論但是就是相關的數據麻煩請先提供給我參考好謝謝"},{"start":4002.67,"end":4003.071,"text":"主席好 有請秘書長"},{"start":4017.028,"end":4031.877,"text":"委員長 秘書長早這是本席第一次質詢考試院我想關心我長期關心的議題當然我想先從最近報導不知道秘書長有沒有看到最近一直有媒體報導公務員提早退出職場的狀況"},{"start":4035.859,"end":4063.306,"text":"有當然我相信您一定有在了解各種原因今天我想針對其中一個潛在的我很關心的原因就是職場霸凌想問就是考試院目前的狀況我想我們都看到考試院修正工部門的職安新制去年7月上路到現在大概已經有9個月了請問一下祕書長您覺得目前做得如何"},{"start":4064.346,"end":4090.554,"text":"目前就是立法之後主要工作就在各項制度機制的建立那保訓會這邊也充實了人力要來處理好這個業務那當然跟各機關人員訓練等等很多工作我是不是請主委跟您詳細說明沒關係 細節可以先不要講那請問秘書長那你們有沒有一個自我評估的機制譬如說一年或是半年知道自己做的怎麼樣請主委來說明"},{"start":4091.634,"end":4117.366,"text":"好先簡要說明我了解一下公委員報告我們那個您剛提到的自我檢視的機制那大概我們有分成幾個部分第一個就是我們從去年的安慰辦法從去年修法通過以後呢我們就連續已經發出三次的這個調查表那確定就是說各機關都有依照我們的規定還有相關的指引來"},{"start":4118.706,"end":4133.7,"text":"這個完成應該所做的部分那這是第一個就是我們去了解現場的情況那跟委員報告就是目前所有的機關全部都已經依照這個規定組成了機關內的這個安全及衛生防護委員會然後呢這個相關課程的訓練"},{"start":4136.782,"end":4157.609,"text":"觸及率呢也這個基本上呢達到了九成五以上那第二個部分是我們自我審視的部分那我們在機關裡面呢我們定期都會這個就各機關還有公務人員他們會其實這個陳如委員所提到這是大家很關心友善職場的最基本面所以呢他們所有的這個基層的"},{"start":4158.729,"end":4159.67,"text":"你剛講的那個是不是那個自我檢核表"},{"start":4176.644,"end":4199.844,"text":"自我檢核表是其中機關需要填的一份表單也就是法律上規定每年3月底前要報送到保訓會的那張表單那這個部分如果你們因為你剛說95%都有達成那如果有相關的統計可以讓我知道一下好不好好 跟委員報告目前陸陸續續都在回收中因為今天是3月19嘛對 那目前呢這個"},{"start":4203.587,"end":4217.803,"text":"大部分的這個機關其實他們都很還蠻早的都沒有像我們這個退退到最後的時候因為我覺得對我來講時間沒有那麼急就是做好比較重要那你如果有相關統計再給本席看好嗎"},{"start":4218.904,"end":4222.949,"text":"我想再回來請問秘書長其實我們是要肯定你們7月就開始根據修過的法把它納入自我檢核表我有拿到相關的表我想這樣的做法是蠻好的"},{"start":4235.563,"end":4255.229,"text":"今天我比較是想針對這個表的內容想跟秘書長討論是不是有可能精進那我讓秘書長看一下這個表格你看這邊譬如說這一份前面是講當然就是安全及衛生防護這邊有防止機械設備器具危害爆炸性等等"},{"start":4255.749,"end":4283.939,"text":"那但是就是這裡面其實你們把兩個東西放在一起一個是職業安全一個是職場霸凌那其實會有一些情況就是好像有些時候是不適用的那我想問就是說秘書長覺得有沒有可能評估有些完全不相干譬如對那個機構單位是不是有可能加上一個不適用這是第一個有可能喔那你們可以評估一下好 這個可以評估"},{"start":4284.659,"end":4306.262,"text":"那另外就是這個減核表好像不夠細緻就是因為職場風險的等級跟業務其實非常的不一樣因為你現在是所有的公部門大家知道公部門數量何其多我是給你們參考一下勞動部怎麼做因為其實我們的法源都是那個職安法"},{"start":4306.923,"end":4333.205,"text":"那勞動部執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引中他的風險評估表有依不同的職場分類譬如這邊我找出來的像社工他長的就會不太一樣那另外右邊那個環境檢點物理環境方面他就是以噪音、照明等等為主所以這個風險評估表是有可能依照不同的職場做分類那不知道"},{"start":4334.893,"end":4352.78,"text":"就是秘書長覺得這個部分可不可以去研議有沒有辦法稍微分類分流一下呢謝謝委員在這個實際執行面中提供我們那麼多寶貴建議這部分我想我們可以來研議因為委員報告其實就我的角色來講我也是填表人你也是填表人我們是接受保訓會作為機關之一我接受保訓會這邊的要求"},{"start":4354.221,"end":4374.862,"text":"所以我們在填這個部分的時候其實委員剛剛也就建議我們自己委會覺得有點共鳴這樣對對對要不然就填太多跟自己這個機構不相關的那真正要他注意的東西他反而忽略到那這樣就很可惜謝謝那個秘書長也覺得這是可以去精進的那再來我也想提一個部分其實你們這個處理原則中有明定迴避規定是蠻好的嘛"},{"start":4377.084,"end":4397.162,"text":"包含就是如果有就是機關要要求迴避或採取適當措施不得參與職場霸凌的相關調查工作那行政程序法也有講到什麼本人 配偶 前配偶 血親三等 三親等如果是事件當事人時要迴避 這個沒問題吧陳秘書長這個是滿好的規定啦"},{"start":4402.1,"end":4429.952,"text":"那現在的情況就是還有另外一個原則你們這邊也規範了這些都必須要保密對不對因為調查結果很可能霸凌不存在嘛所以這要保密這部分是不是也沒有問題是沒有問題那所以這邊你們也有寫得非常好保護當事人與受邀協助調查人員的個人隱私其他人格法役對其姓名或其他足以辨識身份之資料上面都講機關要落實保障嘛"},{"start":4430.872,"end":4454.782,"text":"這樣是不是也沒問題就是我們現在講的是調查過程並不是調查結果因為調查有可能成立有可能不成立在調查過程中因為時間有限那我這邊就收到陳情有陳情人陳情他們是被邀請的調查委員結果居然拿到當事人身份證字號及電話地址這個有必要嗎 秘書長你覺得"},{"start":4457.726,"end":4472.832,"text":"這個名字都不需要了居然還有身份證字號跟電話筆記這個應該是不需要啦不需要喔所以這明顯就是說你們的辦法中寫了可是執行上這個檢核表可能會看不出來的那這個部分有好那謝謝祕書長也肯定這樣的事情應該不能發生那我想保訓會也肯定保訓會今年已經要積極增修訂相關指引"},{"start":4484.378,"end":4497.971,"text":"積極增修訂相關執行性原則例如安慰防護職場霸凌防治相關指引我想這是非常好的事喔那我想你們既然要做相關指引是不是可以做兩件事喔第一個謝謝剛剛秘書長已經講了就是分類更精進一點"},{"start":4501.334,"end":4522.506,"text":"那第二個你這個具體指引迴避原則要怎麼執行好像有人還是看不懂就是我想我收到的是願意信任我的來跟我澄清的那可能還有別的所以這整個不管是教育或者是具體指引的工作譬如申訴人足以辨識身份的資料這些如何遮蔽在操作上"},{"start":4523.406,"end":4544.091,"text":"是不是能夠更清楚更精進那確定在執行面真的能讓大家看到我們政府要做好就是防治霸凌的這整個細節這個秘書長可以承諾嗎這個委員剛剛的建議我們待會兒去來做一個討論看看到底是這個規範上面不夠細緻還是說在操作面大家可能沒有注意到"},{"start":4544.671,"end":4567.484,"text":"那如果這樣的話我想就需要處理的強化宣導或者是強化規範的部分我們來研議或者是指引可能寫的還不夠細大家看不懂那個迴避原則跟那個資料遮蔽的部分了解 這個我們待會去研究 謝謝你那那個秘書長可不可以大概多好時間內可以本席一個你們準備怎麼處理的報告或者讓我辦公室知道一下也不一定要那個報告"},{"start":4569.397,"end":4577.343,"text":"一個月一個月 非常好謝謝秘書長那就這樣子了肯定你們在這方面的努力那就一起精進謝謝委員謝謝范委員接下來我們就有請審判會委員發言"},{"start":4599.185,"end":4626.487,"text":"主席 我們請全序部施部長好 請施部長秘書長 我主要是要針對這個相關考機法我再請教這個施部長如果有其他有關政策部分秘書長如果要補充就請秘書長可以上台來做政策上面的整理政策的表述這個施部長我想這個剛才前面也有委員有詢問到有關於我們這個公務人員的考機制度的相關問題"},{"start":4628.052,"end":4643.564,"text":"那我看你們這個業務報告,你們今天業務報告裡面有關今年工作重點及立法計畫第四點裡面就列入說你們要精進考機法制,建構完善的考機制度這是你們的工作重點,今年度的工作重點"},{"start":4644.639,"end":4665.017,"text":"那這個事實上我個人在這個我們在這個公共政策網路參與平台所謂中台獎裡面事實上也是有這樣子有關於這個考積法的這個相關提案這個部分市部長你有了解嗎我理解我知道知道嘛這個網路我們公共政策網路平台也就是我們考積法的這個修改的部分事實上在這個這個"},{"start":4669.061,"end":4673.846,"text":"社會上面也是很重視這個議題而且已經討論多時了有各種不一樣的意見我在天下雜誌上面看到我們師部長關於考積法的發言基本上講現行的考積法已經沒有獎勵效果了"},{"start":4688.201,"end":4702.819,"text":"這是用引號,這是事務長講的啦現行的考記法已經沒有獎勵的效果那他的標題這個文章的標題就是說有做事沒做事,薪水都一樣就因為這些原因所以我今天大概就針對考記法的部分我會來跟事務長討論"},{"start":4704.221,"end":4731.339,"text":"那這接下來在我們的業務報告一樣在我們業務報告裡面有關於近期已執行的業務情形裡面你們提了兩點第一點是通盤檢討修正公務員考機法剛才討論的這個部分那第二點是檢討研修公務員任用法所以今天大概會就考機法跟任用法這兩個部分來請教那這個其實公務員考機法它裡面的這些相關的問題很多是"},{"start":4733.632,"end":4756.801,"text":"同樣兩個價值的橫平啦就是這個公務體認用公平但是他同時他又要能夠這個這個這個激勵績效這樣子兩個價值之間的橫平會造這個橫平所以他在從過去一直到現在公務員考積法他一直是大法官會議解釋的常客就是說可以說大法官會議解釋裡面最多的就是公務員考積法"},{"start":4757.821,"end":4777.757,"text":"從歷年來大法官會議解釋有8次大法官會議解釋針對我們公務員考機法到憲法法庭還有一次憲法判決加起來其實是9次的判決事實上在這從民國75年到114年我們也提過5次修法整個公務員考機法有5次修法"},{"start":4778.718,"end":4794.729,"text":"那這整個運動體系我想從過去到現在其實市部長我想給你相當的肯定啦因為你大概非常我看你非常用心的是真的真的把它當作一個志業啦要改革這公務人員考機制度我看你是真的很用心的在在談但這個問題"},{"start":4797.622,"end":4826.805,"text":"非常很重要而且你很用心但是他偏偏他就是在在他的改革是不容易的不容易的那所以我大概就是從這個從過去這個公路人員考機考機法的修法經驗過去說五次提我們五次提到立法院來修法但是都後來都沒有修成了都沒有修成了因為這個都都每次一到這個什麼考機比例到比例要不要要不要維持到這些爭議這個就大家就這個共識就很低了所以每一次都沒有修法修成了那"},{"start":4827.626,"end":4854.326,"text":"我們大概在整個我們把他提到這個既然你們又把他列為今年度的重要工作事項那也是你們的重要工作成果所以我們就重點就是說我們這個公務員考機法修法到底有哪幾個重點我這裡是提出這個三個大變相第一個就是我剛剛提的這個等地的比例就是到甲等有沒有要設置比例多少比例甲等地的比例這是第一個面向第二面向就是你在打考機的你那個區別"},{"start":4856.298,"end":4869.672,"text":"他到底具不具曲面性的這個平良的機制到底要建立這是過去一直詬病的就是說我們這個到底為什麼我甲等為什麼我乙等這個平良的這個機制這個東西這個平良性這個是第二個面向"},{"start":4871.072,"end":4891.547,"text":"那第三個面向就是大概就是這個一般基層公務員比較關心的就是那你主管打烤機你要不要負責就是你這個主管的平和責任我做平和這個責任大概這三個面向是我們如果我們要做烤機法的改革我想這三個是重要的面向所以一個一個面向來跟這個部長討論你們在全區部我看在這個"},{"start":4895.902,"end":4915.469,"text":"一個禮拜前你們全區部有講說你們這個其實你們過去到現在你們已經經過向考試院進行了五次的專案說明進行五次的專案說明而且你們在這個你們報告裡面也提到從114年6月到8月召開三次的專案會議這個專案說明會議而且"},{"start":4918.488,"end":4945.547,"text":"達成一定的共識之後在十月跟十一月又召開兩次總共召開五次的專案說明會議嘛對不對那有關於這個我現在要請問部長就是說有關這個長期大家對於這個比例配合的這個僵化這部分我們什麼樣的改革方向我想我用更整體來跟委員報告可能因為我們的方向會跟現在不一樣所以不能用現在甲乙丙這種概念來看我們未來的方向簡單講"},{"start":4947.168,"end":4956.029,"text":"我長期在政府部門服務那我自己是學人資的那我還是要坦白講人資的那一套理論"},{"start":4957.366,"end":4980.894,"text":"或技術放在政府部門來必須要做修正要不然會沒有辦法可行性在政府部門如果沒有辦法可行性就是為什麼以前送的五次烤雞法的方式通通沒有下文對 沒有下文就是因為它會有可行性的問題但是我們希望又可行又要兼顧一些也不要說完全沒有效果所以我們大的方向是這樣子"},{"start":4981.714,"end":5006.833,"text":"我們不會再有甲乙丙那個概念我們會重新用另外簡化的等次我不贊成如果我們現在連甲乙都很難區別的如果你再把顆粒再拉高老實說那爭論會更大所以我們的方式是簡化方式簡單講我們大概會當烤雞簡單講未來機關要達到最重要兩件事情"},{"start":5007.984,"end":5030.065,"text":"如果我們會設定條件那個真的是做不好的符合什麼條件 你就是未打良好那只要你沒有未打良好 基本上就是非常好 良好那在良好上面 如果我們再有一個條件如果你真的符合更好 你有一個優等 特優我們就這樣子而已 但是從"},{"start":5032.496,"end":5041.001,"text":"從理論的實務或者人質的實務不可能特優惹人會比那所謂良好跟對好這是我們要改變嘛那所謂良好跟不良"},{"start":5042.434,"end":5066.315,"text":"這兩個中有比例我們不會設定比例這是重點我們絕對不會設定比例不設定比例這個比例才是重點要核實根據法定的標準你不管它叫做假等叫做疑等還是它叫做良好叫做優良都是到底要不要設定比例這個問題我們不會去設定所謂叫未達良好了這個比例不會因為我們就根據你符合這個條項機關就要核實了基本上我們的整個修法方向是要把過去的這個比例"},{"start":5067.636,"end":5088.806,"text":"這個比例配額的僵化要把它廢除掉這是第一個方向這是第一個面向第二個面向有關於評量方式過去這個評量方式大家一直在講說不過如果你簡化之後這個評量方式就比較容易了我們就是有兩個主要的標準一個是如果未達良好必須要什麼標準未達良好基本上要有一些具體的事證如果你要更好你就要有什麼標準我們主要是用這兩個概念"},{"start":5090.507,"end":5109.217,"text":"接下來就是第三個面向就是我們所提到的主管平和的責任這個有我們剛剛講在這壯開講這個網路政治平台上面大家也提到說你要付理由啦要付理由所以你剛剛講說如果我們未來改成說良好跟未達良好那未達良好部分你一定要付"},{"start":5109.437,"end":5125.605,"text":"一定要附這樣相關的書面理由跟說明而且我們會認為如果你年終要打人家未了良好在平常的考核裡面就一定要先示警啦對 平常要示警就是平常考核的時候如果你覺得他真的不好"},{"start":5126.405,"end":5141.826,"text":"未達人你一定要在 你在真正最後做考機之前而且要跟他溝通因為我們不希望 老實說政府部門大家辛辛苦苦考進來 我們不希望好像是隨便就fire一個同仁 這也不是好事情啦所以過程要給他"},{"start":5142.887,"end":5154.235,"text":"這個知道說他做得好不好好這樣子的的修法方向我個人是非常支持而且我認為說這樣子是事實上可以解決要我剛講這整個三大面向的在這些問題啦齁這個可以可以一併解決那我們希望說那時程呢你們計劃什麼時候呃應該這樣講我們大概我剛剛有報告我預計在這個月會正式進入跟各機關發出正式的這個意見"},{"start":5165.743,"end":5194.021,"text":"徵詢但是我們會請各機關也要把這個意見那你們預計在什麼時候完成如果順利的話我想我希望在下個月如果順利啦大家同意我們這個做法的話我不希望說大家有意見我還往考試院送老實說也沒有意義啦所以我希望在這樣一個過程裡面大概能夠順利到下個月四月到五月之中間我能夠順利把這個法案草案送到考試院因為還是要經過考試院就是希望說四月五月能夠送到考試院"},{"start":5195.181,"end":5212.445,"text":"這樣子就時程也很具體了那一個小問題就是過去在修法的時候常常說在打烤機的時候你們這個修法的時程跟這個打烤機的時間重疊人事行政局就說你這樣子我根本我就這個部分要注意一下謝謝委員的提醒這個部分烤機法到這裡"},{"start":5216.209,"end":5238.936,"text":"那有關公務人員任用法的部分,我這邊給你顯示一個比例啦我看這近六年公務人員辭職的人數這個看比例,其實辭職率看起來提升沒有很多從0.8%提升到1.4%比例看起來沒有很高啦但其實實際上的辭職人數是攀升啦從1157個人到將近2000人"},{"start":5244.077,"end":5263.292,"text":"這個其實這個攀升的比例那這個這樣子的你們是怎麼看待你們覺得這個是人力結構的流失還是你們覺得這個影響有限我做一個部長我長期觀察這個數字來講我不想事實上人數在增加沒有錯但是他佔整個公務人員比例真的是很低"},{"start":5264.676,"end":5283.646,"text":"這剛我講的比例1.4而已那我再講一個數字我們在很多辭職的同仁裡面大部分都是新進的沒幾年的同仁那他後來呢又重新考試回來好我接下來就是要講這個快要兩層左右已經考回來我接下來就是要講這個你看你看我接下來就是要講這個所以我的意思在講是所以問題一定有問題"},{"start":5284.586,"end":5292.371,"text":"為什麼我考上了我要辭掉然後在兩年內我再去拼另外一個考試再考進來因為我們是分發考試我們是分發考試他可能分到了機關他覺得而且不得轉任"},{"start":5299.837,"end":5322.549,"text":"因為我們現在有高普考三年地特有六年那我跟委員報告這個一定是用人機關很複雜議題的政策放在法律裡面這近六年來這個辭職的公務員剛剛你講有兩層會在任公職這兩人裡面有七成五次第二次再考試考進來的再重新再考試所以這個我們"},{"start":5324.89,"end":5342.743,"text":"對於這個高考的這些綁約地特這樣子的這些問題我們有沒有想要做改變或檢討我跟委員報告我們現在當然已經有一個室友是說如果他有育三歲以下的一個小孩子可以在一定條件裡面他可以轉啦那我們一方面也在檢討這個可能要請秘書長我們這個"},{"start":5346.415,"end":5368.591,"text":"這個其實不得轉調的這些相關的法條依據是在公務人員考試法是在公務人員考試法裡面那這個部分我們是不是能夠整體做結構性的調整要不然這實在是我們一說出來就很荒謬這麼多人大家考上了我還辭掉辭掉再去重新考再考回來如果這掉了我還是不高興那我再辭我再考"},{"start":5369.748,"end":5391.954,"text":"我瞭解委員講這個問題這個是我們國家的特殊結構下的特殊的副作用因為我們是統一考試統一分發用人機關完全不能選擇他就等著我們分發一個人給他但是分發的這個權利是在於考生依照分數去填寫他的志願但他填寫志願的時候我簡單講他最後填了一個譬如說在東部"},{"start":5392.734,"end":5420.573,"text":"他並不是真的想去東部服務但他只是想要拿到這個分發以後完成訓練使得他可以得到公務員資格那所以 達到公務員資格之後他就有一個底氣他可以重考再職重考或離職重考但他已經具備資格所以這個對用人機關來講是很大的困擾就是說我提供一個職缺但這個人心不在此然後我們就變成一個過水跟新人訓練的機關所以我們也必須考慮到他們的需求要有限制轉調這個要求啦"},{"start":5420.973,"end":5427.616,"text":"那但是這個現在要怎麼樣提前解除這個條件我們可以來討論你們檢討一下除了這個離職率以外我們看看我最後提到這個你看我們這個辭職的從108年到113年辭職的人員的職等跟年資"},{"start":5440.521,"end":5449.433,"text":"其實蠻集中的,其實真的蠻集中,集中在幾個值等啊在委任三值等跟這個鑑任六值等、鑑任七值等加起來,這三個加起來就到68%啦"},{"start":5452.882,"end":5476.809,"text":"就要實質的68%快要到7成了那如果是70等以下的幾乎就是9成了幾乎就是9成了這個問題我希望說我們能夠也能夠針對這樣子這個做一些具體的改革方向包括考機機效這些聯動機制還是要留財啦還是要留財好不好我跟委員說要報這個值等就是剛剛好那個考試剛分發的對就是考試剛分發就集中在這裡就快到7成了好以上"},{"start":5481.513,"end":5507.762,"text":"好 謝謝沈委員那接下來我們請林沛翔委員發言好 有請考試院劉秘書長跟我們程序部施部長好 請秘書長還有施部長"},{"start":5512.607,"end":5527.679,"text":"兩位長官我想先請問一個我想全國都很關心的問題就是現在到底軍人加薪跟警消退休金的狀況是怎麼樣目前執行的狀況如何呢軍人加薪不是我們的業務範圍"},{"start":5529.926,"end":5545.303,"text":"那您說警察就是就那個警察人事條例修法的部分那就審定的部分全區部這邊去年底已經之前都已經完成審定函那執行的部分呢執行的狀況如何執行的狀況因為這個就是跟全區跟這個對不起跟行政院編列預算這個有關"},{"start":5546.844,"end":5571.616,"text":"所以說就是行政院沒有編列預算嘛現在的狀況是那所以如果問題是出在行政院的話那行政院不願意編列預算是不是我們考試院應該主動啟動所謂的院計協商來去依法編列預算呢跟委員報告因為它這個修法是修在警察人事條例裡面這個條例是行政院的主管的法律所以也不是考試院主管的法律"},{"start":5572.176,"end":5582.826,"text":"那他的預算法律在行政院那預算也是行政院要編列依照法律的規定所以這個我們沒有這個反而是跟我們的退府制度是沒有沒有關聯"},{"start":5583.928,"end":5610.962,"text":"所以我所以說現在狀況就是說沒有編列預算那小勢雲變成是說這個法過了但是沒錢可以沒錢可以執行對吧對他目前的狀況是這樣老師說我就覺得我讓我覺得很困惑因為嚴格講起來不管不是只有公務人員是公務人員警員警軍人也好警消也好也是廣義的公務人員也是所謂廣義的這個國家體制他就是公務人員的一部分對對對"},{"start":5612.003,"end":5640.272,"text":"那老實說他們在比起一般的公務人員來講警消尤其是警消軍警其實對於國家的保護跟幫助是更重要的他們長期站在第一線他們的壓力比別人都來的大老實說我們現在看到我們很多的法制都是選美國那美國也好還是說任何先進國家至少是優等優良的先進國家都對於軍公教警消是給予"},{"start":5641.174,"end":5641.885,"text":"足夠的照護的"},{"start":5642.645,"end":5670.372,"text":"但是很可惜的說真的如果法律通過之後我們行政部門沒有依法執行然後甚至說特地苛扣預算那嚴格講起來對於我們的這個公務人員其實蠻刻薄的不管是哪個黨對於說這個年改政策把退休金一砍再砍我想在座的所有的文官體系文官體系出來的人都會覺得感同身受這是不好的這是不對的"},{"start":5671.252,"end":5693.26,"text":"尤其是說我剛剛查了一下整個公務員體系在美國的這個整個金額是台灣的三倍到五倍之多但是相對比較起來我們台灣就用這種年改之類的這種年改方式對於這個我們的公務人員無形的苛扣那我是不知道說各位的感覺怎麼樣我是覺得不捨啦"},{"start":5694,"end":5711.987,"text":"因為我的想法一向都是如果我們這個國家要能夠好好運行要能夠正確運行那優質的公務人員不能少但是另外一方面我也想就是直接講如果說預算沒有編那其實難免會讓很多的公務體系的人心寒"},{"start":5712.927,"end":5736.046,"text":"那同樣的不只是對過去的公務人員對過去的警消對過去的軍人那他們是苛扣的之外其實對新來的人才要進來剛剛我也聽到說市部長在回應這個審發會委員的質詢那其實這公務體系裡面現在變成是說請問一下要報考的人是不是越來越少啦"},{"start":5738.529,"end":5759.148,"text":"警察整體是整體報告人數受傷的影響一定會下降但是警察報告人數目前我們還沒有說不是問題不過消防的部分消防的部分比較有空缺因為主要是我們的需求量變得很大所以我們考進來的人越來越多入選人"},{"start":5760.169,"end":5778.802,"text":"儘管有增加但是缺員越來越多因為大家需要更多的人力去執行這個工作然後讓大家不要過勞所以這個部分的需求還沒有辦法完全平衡那整體公務人員呢我也想請教整體公務人員的考試人數是下降中那其實是想算是另外一種的國安危機吧"},{"start":5780.282,"end":5803.073,"text":"除了人員危機除了少子化危機之外當然跟少子化危機會有一點關係但是最直接的就是說如果我們國家的優秀人才都不願意投身公務系統的時候那會不會導致說我們國家整個行政效率或整個國家整個制度的敗壞呢這算是另外一種的國安危機其實但是我們都選擇性的不看到嗎"},{"start":5804.224,"end":5824.283,"text":"這個不會說沒有看到不過我想他主要重點的問題是反映在那幾個入取不足額的相關類科就是我們會聚焦在這幾個部分來努力那整體雖然說報考人數有降低但是我想積極想考公務員的人他還是會積極報告就是我們看到很多重複入取啊重複報考甚至辭職再去考就表示說其實還是有"},{"start":5825.104,"end":5847.049,"text":"熱心想要來這個體系的人還是會很努力的想請問一下目前考試院掌握的最新數據是多少去年報考公務人員的報考人數是多少那整體報考率大概是多少這個我請部長來說明好委員好 公務員報告去年整個公務人員考試報考的是149,130人那錄取是18,413人"},{"start":5852.91,"end":5877.001,"text":"好那我想請問一下那如果說現在報考人數向低嘛那各方面都在降低那請問一下如果有沒有什麼具體的改革方案我聽說好像前一陣子好像就把我們的國家考試報名費調漲了25%那現在有動漲嗎跟委員報告那因為是考選基金如果不做這個調整的話可能今年底就破產了所以我們也是不得已必須做這樣的調漲"},{"start":5878.055,"end":5904.389,"text":"那如果在這個前提之下因為考選基金要破產所以我們調高的報名費那我們現在也實質的報考人數在往下降很多那是不是最後面是說一考就上還是說我們就是什麼人才會亂選呢有沒有可能呢跟委員報告目前的入取率大概是百分之二十但是還是要看類科那其實跟委員所關心的大概主要會集中在幾個類科不足額的情況會比較高特別是土木類科"},{"start":5905.389,"end":5922.702,"text":"土木類課一個類課大概就佔了說不足我的大概的三分之二所以說老實講我為什麼提出啊謝謝謝謝部長市部長也請回好了不好意思我其實為什麼提出這些問題其實有一個就是一個都指向同一個現象就是說當我們的公務人員"},{"start":5923.923,"end":5946.972,"text":"前面警消他們退休金該撥的沒有撥那我們三讀通過的法案沒有編列預算那其實表面上受害的只是說這些警消退休警消警消人員而已可是實質上全民都在看尤其是下一代的年輕人他們會覺得說講話都不算話我為什麼要進入公務體系"},{"start":5949.074,"end":5962.328,"text":"當我們公務體系的威信的誠信已經被嚴重去受到挑戰的時候我們怎麼期待說下一代的我們的這些新興學子覺得對於公務這個公務體系還有任何的憧憬"},{"start":5963.442,"end":5978.34,"text":"有任何的改革方案嗎各位報告那個您提的這個警察人條例修法跟預算編列的問題因為不是考試院值錢所以我沒有辦法回應啦那對於您剛剛講說年輕人看到這個退休制度的部分他到底跟他報考的意願有沒有關係我想"},{"start":5978.86,"end":5996.621,"text":"報告院這件事的確有非常多因素不過我要跟您報告就是說現在新進公務人員他適用的是個人專戶制所以我們現在在原來的退服法或者退服法之外的這個警察人是條例的修正這個部分其實跟新進人員他們將來自己的那個退休金的制度其實是脫鉤的是沒有關聯的"},{"start":5997.898,"end":6021.549,"text":"因為他們已經在採用個人專戶制那個人專戶制它的優點就是說它比較不會出現這個繳少領多然後這個有潛藏債務的問題但它也有相對應的保障它跟我們的勞工制度也是對應的那但是您講的這個報考人數下降的部分當然我們會很重視有沒有具體方案啊老師說因為剛剛部長講我們聚焦在幾個真的是比較招募不足的部分"},{"start":6022.469,"end":6051.666,"text":"我們這個有些部位要從教育資源的投入開始比如說我們發現前一陣子我們發現就是說土木人才的確有不足的錄取那它又反映在東部這邊東部的縣市基層他們非常欠缺這個人力所以我們就檢討出說東部這邊其實沒有土木科系的教育高等教育作為它當地人力的培養的支撐所以我們跟工程會這邊協調我們跨院合作後來我們去協調宜蘭大學到花蓮去設"},{"start":6052.547,"end":6074.327,"text":"我想這個我們在立法院其實如果我們遇到看到這個現象通常不是單純的個案秘書長你現在回答是單純個案的改善我講的是整個目前整個現況都是這樣那如果說可以的話你們的改革方案不是只有針對說我們現在講東部縣市土木學科而是明年搞不好還是一樣一堆"},{"start":6075.788,"end":6090.074,"text":"一堆的缺出來但是不見得有人可以我剛剛在報告者有講就是說其實就一個年輕人來講我到民間部門我就是遞履歷表面試也許有考試但是那個考試絕對不會像我們國家考試那麼繁複"},{"start":6090.894,"end":6118.192,"text":"那年輕人要來進公部門他投注的成本真的很高我們其實調查很多入企人員平均可能考三年然後在這個被考的期間他可能沒有正職工作他其實投入非常大的心力很多人是這麼熱衷的就是願意來當公務員但是我們的不管是年改是退來各方面其實正在澆熄他們的熱情所以您講就是說我們多方面的解決方案包含我們講現在高補考要減課因為我們考試的那個門檻真的很高所以我們高補考減課也是減輕考生的負擔"},{"start":6121.635,"end":6131.742,"text":"然後我們讓考試更聚焦核心職能我們希望讓考試正在準備的成本不要太高否則它跟私部門求職的成本差距那麼大的話我們也很難去競爭"},{"start":6132.945,"end":6156.446,"text":"老師講您講的是一套但是老師講不管是說對於這個退休金制度的不公平之外然後還有包括說調漲國家考試因為這個考選基金要破產直接調高25%這其實講的是一套但是做的時候讓民眾有沒有感覺到讓未來的人願不願意投入公務體系我想你們自己會自己感覺最清楚"},{"start":6157.346,"end":6184.673,"text":"應付國會議員的質詢是一回事實質上現況如何解決又是一回事我會期待說考試院提出一個真正提出一個改革方案一個能夠激勵讓未來年輕人投入公文官體系的一個改革方案謝謝如果有機會的話再跟委員做下面講可以給我至少能調整的方向至少給我一個我會整一下我們對這個部分的做法來給委員做一個書面報告什麼時候要給我呢我想應該"},{"start":6187.373,"end":6207.965,"text":"一個月?一個月可以,沒有問題好,謝謝好,謝謝林沛翔委員那接下來我們有請張雅琳委員發言好,我們先請秘書長,謝謝好,請劉秘書長"},{"start":6216.088,"end":6235.738,"text":"那我想首先呢我看到就是秘書長在3月13號的時候國家人力資源論壇上面有提到有數據才有真相並強調我們考試院這三年來呢都強調一個行政決策透過資料庫分析跟學界的合作來提升我們決策品質這樣子的方向其實我非常給予肯定就是因為這段時間我去日本跟澳洲"},{"start":6236.278,"end":6250.26,"text":"那我跟他們在聊的時候呢他們的很多政策都有非常清楚的一個數據例如過去他們可能是蹲室廁所改成坐室廁所這裡面都有非常多的數據去支撐他們的政策要往哪個方向去前進那或者是像是澳洲的公共空間綠色"},{"start":6252.742,"end":6275.327,"text":"這個遊戲場啊綠色的公共空間等等的都有所以我這個方面我是非常的支持但是我想請教就是秘書長已經推動三年了那我們現在到底有哪一個政策或是重大的制度改革是依循數據分析而正式啟動的跟委員報告其實我們做這個政策是希望讓大家"},{"start":6277.216,"end":6298.472,"text":"對於事實的分析 尤其我們的同仁在做政策演繹跟做的時候也包含我們自己決策者 包含我們的考試委員 政府院長在做這個決策的時候能夠有更清楚的數據的分析所以您說具體哪一個政策是這樣我認為幾乎多數的政策都是如此因為我們現在這幾年來我們都會希望說在決策的時候大家就會問實際的狀況究竟如何"},{"start":6302.514,"end":6330.64,"text":"就像剛剛我們很多委員執行也講出了比如說到底會辭職的公務同仁都是誰如果透過數據分析我們看到說大部分是剛考進來的同仁比較多所以就不知道說那可能是限制轉調跟他們要為了改分發而重新考試類似像這樣的現況的了解我們都會希望有實際的數字佐證而不是都是很多人的個案的意見的彙整但是可能就沒有清楚的全貌主要是這樣"},{"start":6331.377,"end":6338.643,"text":"好 那接下來我也想要請教一下我們的施能傑部長但是可能這個東西也會跟秘書長有關係就是說"},{"start":6341.092,"end":6369.177,"text":"我們目前呢我看了一下我手邊的資料我們111年呢我們公教人員的生育率跟全國相比還領先0.29約1.33倍但是到113年的時候呢我們這個領先全國的幅度往下降了也就是說過去我們可能認為公教人員比較願意生啊但是目前這個優勢已經不見了那我想了解就先請教秘書長就是我們有沒有任何的研究來了解說為什麼我們的公務員有這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":6371.087,"end":6383.481,"text":"我們市長或是部長可以回答這一點我跟委員報告當然我以前在當人事長的時候曾經做真的是跑過資料run過整體上看起來是比較高但是如果工人有很多類別對"},{"start":6384.659,"end":6413.564,"text":"差異很大譬如說區分成公務人員、警察、教師然後去讓他的生育率其實是差異很大我先講這個拒絕數字是這樣那整體這是一個整體的東西那老實說我們並沒有真正就這部分我看過很多比較細緻的那個分析研究報告為什麼公務人員生育率的影響他一些應該我們也沒有做過這方面的分析報告"},{"start":6414.144,"end":6439.717,"text":"好 了解好 那我認為我們應該要去了解這件事情因為我想大環境的少子化一定是有一些影響性然後整個價值觀的改變也多少都有影響但是這個領先幅度還是有點太低的我覺得這可以做一個研究來了解但是我想有件事情我們可以先來做就是說在去年的時候其實12月我們的政府已經宣布了這個利多的政策也就是說育嬰留庭會改成6加1個月雙親來共同育兒這件事情"},{"start":6442.879,"end":6456.75,"text":"那目前呢勞動部是大規模鋪天蓋地的讓很多的勞工朋友都會知道但是我詢問了一些公教人員他們其實並不知道這件事情所以我認為我們在宣傳的這件事情上面應該可以做改善部長你的看法是"},{"start":6458.549,"end":6484.29,"text":"我想謝謝委員我們會跟公務同仁談這個事情但是很實際的狀況是這樣這個應該要修法所以部裡面其實已經在啟動那個修法的那個程序中我想修法跟宣傳這兩件事情應該是可以同步作業那我想說那宣傳的部分是可不可以給我們一個簡單的說明你們預計如何擴大宣傳這件事情以及我們現在修法預計大概什麼時候可以完成呢"},{"start":6484.77,"end":6512.556,"text":"好 我們內部的修法大概應該是下個月應該就可以完成我們內部的程序那我們會報到考試院去那行政院那邊我的了解目前也還在他的法的修正還在勞動部沒錯 他們已經預告了啦那我們有同步啦 我們有同步好 有同步就好那就是請問大概什麼時候可以給我一個宣傳你們大概打算怎麼對內部的公務人員做宣傳是不是可以兩個禮拜給我一個說明好不好好 就是"},{"start":6513.576,"end":6522.31,"text":"宣傳的方式剛好嘛因為你四月要送出嘛我們四月的時候我們努力來看看怎麼樣做這一部分的事情好那再來就下一個問題還是彈性工時啦因為其實我之前也跟部長來請教過了部長可以先請回了謝謝"},{"start":6529.127,"end":6558.032,"text":"那有關於彈性的工時的部分呢之前其實是有看到說在107年9月3號的時候呢的確有發文通靈各機關必須遵守性工法的一個相關規範那這部分我也是給予肯定但是我也問了一些有育兒的公務人員他們也遇到一個實務的狀況就是說當他需要可能提早一個小時可能不主張減少一小時只是希望可以提早上班就是這個彈性工時的部分讓他可以早點去接小孩"},{"start":6558.652,"end":6584.155,"text":"但是還是會遇到這些機關可能在人事單位這邊就陣亡了那有些單位可能就非常的支持所以我覺得這個就存在了一個差異那當然我也理解每個工作每個部會可能都會有不同的狀況因為勞動部這邊也有類似的問題可是勞動部還是想辦法怎麼樣來鼓勵我們的企業來做這件事情所以我也是在想說"},{"start":6585.276,"end":6601.389,"text":"部長是人事專家啦在這個部分上面我們是不是也可以提出更好的鼓勵方案因為像是前陣子台北市蔣萬安市長有提出讓家長提早一小時下班可是這件事情並不適用公務人員所以呢不曉得說部長對這件事情的一個看法是什麼"},{"start":6602.728,"end":6617.773,"text":"我是蠻覺得彈性工齒是可以創造友善的工作環境一個很好的一個方法布裡面就我們實施的彈性工齒就非常Range非常非常大但是各機關真的差異我完全了解但是我們的法規沒有問題"},{"start":6618.993,"end":6635.579,"text":"絕對可以做那事實上就是機關要不要做機關怎麼做那這個部分以台灣的分工來講我會跟主要都是在人事總署在比較他比較負責就是說去做宣導去做一些指引他那邊會比我們這邊來的更有效這部分我來跟那個"},{"start":6639.12,"end":6657.614,"text":"總署的同仁呢在談談說有什麼方式也可以跟機關講因為機關有疑慮啦主要是機關有疑慮用人機關疑慮怎麼樣說怎麼樣做法也許可以減少他們的疑慮那大家鼓勵來做這次COVID-19的時候就要努力來做但是19完以後就大家要回復比較多回復原來的狀況"},{"start":6658.234,"end":6678.042,"text":"所以我想這部分還是希望積極的來鼓勵啦因為我這次去澳洲我也醒悟了他們的公務體系啦那他們公務體系也提出了非常多不同的這種彈性工作或是遠距工作或各種的方式來去提供他們的公務人員可以怎麼樣工作跟家庭兼顧所以這個部分我想也是需要部長一起來努力那我也希望就是說因為"},{"start":6678.542,"end":6695.749,"text":"其實秘書署長剛剛就像我們剛剛一直在講的就是有數據才有真相所以我也希望說我們提供的一些講座方案也是可以延續我們這個行政決策的一個概念來繼續執行那這個部分的話可能後續我也會再跟部長約時間來討論好謝謝謝謝部長那接下來抱歉還有一題考積法考積法"},{"start":6702.945,"end":6720.639,"text":"部長又請你回來了就是說今年在一月份的時候有民眾在公共政策的網路參與平台有提到一個檢討公務人員考機法那其實今天有非常多的委員都討論到了這一點因為這件事情其實在基層公務人員的反應是非常非常的應該說表達意見非常踴躍在兩個禮拜就達成了連署的門檻"},{"start":6723.121,"end":6749.589,"text":"那我自己在上網看的時候呢其實大家對於幾個議題非常有意見第一個就是考機的比例僵化難以反應實際的工作表現那甚至你也可以看到上面我截圖的這些留言大家一直其實都會提到輪流輪到一等這樣子那我剛剛也有聽到就是說部長的一些回應就是說未來我們不會再有甲乙丙丁制然後我們可能會有一個比較頂尖的"},{"start":6750.69,"end":6756.697,"text":"這個拔尖的概念那我想可能會是一個比較像是統計學的左偽分布的一個概念那"},{"start":6758.669,"end":6787.188,"text":"目前呢 我知道我們已經有一些講就是篩選出什麼模範公務人員啊但是這個是非常非常頂尖我們體制上的確是有的但是我們是不是有可能可以把它分布在一個比較是像這樣子的一個像我圖表上面這樣子的一個建議就是不要到那種就是在秤值之間跟非常頂尖之間有一個頂尖的因為這樣才有更多的人可以被選到這個位置不曉得您的看法是"},{"start":6788.743,"end":6791.566,"text":"其實我們的概念會比較像這張圖但是不會這麼複雜跟你們的圖是比較像是這一張圖嗎?"},{"start":6798.412,"end":6823.967,"text":"比較像是這一我不會設定比例好的應該我要講我不設定比例但是會比較像是以我對公務實際的了解絕大部分的同仁都是稱職的公務同仁他們就是被教辦工作努力工作也把該做的事情做好那我們就認為他就是一個很稱職的公務人但是確實有些很少數的同仁真的表現更好那我們就會放到那個就是我們要"},{"start":6824.827,"end":6851.365,"text":"要著重的是這邊如果同仁真的不符合我們法律有規定一些我們未來規定會說哪些事項哪些新聞你不可以有工作新聞如果你真的有這個東西你會放在就是未打良好我想我們大表演的方式我想這張圖的概念其實是說因為我們可能大部分我也相信大部分的公務人員都是非常的認真那現在我們的體制上面如果你只有非常優秀的那種模範的機制的話就會讓很多的人其實他的表現"},{"start":6852.225,"end":6877.772,"text":"其實可能已經超越頂尖了已經超越秤值了可是他沒有辦法到這種拔尖的狀態的時候這個是兩個不同的概念我們那個模範公務人員跟工作考機是不一樣的沒錯沒錯就是希望說我們是可以有一個我們這兩個是區隔的對對對就是區隔的部分那再來就是說我想針對於一些待觀察或是您剛剛講說比較有狀況的一些公務人員的話比較需要一些輔導的話我們是不是可以有具體的輔導或是考核的機制來幫助他們前進呢"},{"start":6879.422,"end":6896.754,"text":"我們希望未來如果任何一個機關要打同仁落入到這個未打良好這個category他平常就要有一些很好的這個譬如像說紀錄觀察甚至覺得他不好其中就要給他有一些比較改善的一個機會那我想是一定會有這個機制"},{"start":6898.154,"end":6915.251,"text":"那我想在問這個問題的同時我也想請教因為公務人員考積法我知道已經在討論當中那有沒有可能在這個會期就送到立法院來我們會以這個為努力的目標好那最後一題那我們再請秘書長抱歉謝謝部長"},{"start":6920.209,"end":6934.68,"text":"那就是說牧師長想請教一下因為在2025年的時候我們完成了公務人員保障法的修法正式將公務人員的職場霸凌處理機制納入母法那後續呢保訓會會依據母法修訂公務人員的執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法"},{"start":6936.121,"end":6963.316,"text":"那但是呢我們在看到職安法或者性公法相比的時候我們目前公務體系的相關保護措施還是放在執法的一個層級那目前我們其實也缺乏了一個明確的法律規範我們只有寫到具體有效措施跟其他的法規都明確定義處理過程的權利義務其實是有差別的那如果我們今天從法制的角度來看根據中央標準"},{"start":6964.877,"end":6986.533,"text":"中央法規標準法的第五條人民的權利義務事項都應該以法律來定之所以說當公共機關在職場霸凌時應該要採取哪些的保護措施或是相關權利義務因為牽扯到當事人的權利跟義務所以應該要採取法律所謂的利事原則才對所以我在想我們是不是有可能來在這個"},{"start":6988.815,"end":7005.791,"text":"在這個涉及人身安全的職場霸凌案件之中把機關應採取之保護措施以法律明確列舉來避免各機關認定不一甚至消極處理的這個一個問題我們是不是有可能來做這樣子的研議呢"},{"start":7010.613,"end":7021.017,"text":"我們保障法跟安慰辦法的這個架構如果你從法律的那個層次來看好像跟治安法的結構不一樣不過我想"},{"start":7021.937,"end":7044.125,"text":"即便他部分是在比如說安慰辦法裡面我想對各機關的指引跟拘束的效果還是一樣強因為最主要公部門的同仁大家都會依照規定比較不會有違法的狀況那規範的細節上面如果有沒有不明確這個部分我想請主委這邊來幫忙說明好 謝謝"},{"start":7047.489,"end":7072.215,"text":"跟委員報告就是您剛提到那個問題那因為這個保障法19條它其實是在民國92年的時候新增的所以呢對於這個安慰辦法的這個授權法源在那邊那因為它這個涉及到有關於法律的一個執行的細節或是執行面相關的部分就授權放在這個安慰辦法但是委員您剛非常關切的"},{"start":7073.332,"end":7080.741,"text":"關於這個公務人員的權利義務的這個部分包含這個職場霸凌的定義然後呢它的一個具體採取這次有關於那個採取"},{"start":7085.168,"end":7104.785,"text":"或者是他的一個行政罰款相關的這個法律違反效果等等這些您最關心的議題其實他都是放在保障法裡面那這是跟委員檢要報告這樣那第二個部分就是涉及到就是說誠如我們剛剛秘書長所講您關心的這些部分在現在兩部一個"},{"start":7105.806,"end":7119.927,"text":"就是在保障法跟安慰辦法裡面它其實是搭配得非常好那目前我們也有去蒐集這個各機關還有這個相關的申訴人他們的就一些看法就是那目前都沒有人反映說"},{"start":7121.503,"end":7150.644,"text":"需要再把它放到法律裡面因為目前整個保障法已經是104條了所以它已經很大但是呢委員您所提的這個關切的部分我們在這個未來還有現在我們也會持續的繼續去滾動如果有必要把它放到這個法律裡面我們也會這個去進行這樣子的一個研議那我想就是我還是希望可以去研議一下那是不是三個月之後給我一個研議的報告好不好"},{"start":7151.084,"end":7152.525,"text":"接下來我們有請羅志強委員發言我們私委會沒有羅委員常來的時候感覺到好像特別的冷清今天您來的"},{"start":7173.154,"end":7174.997,"text":"有請我們考試院秘書長 劉建興還有群術部長 司部長請秘書長還有司部長委員長"},{"start":7188.544,"end":7191.486,"text":"台灣公職報考數大減10萬,公部門運作亮紅燈,正讓國家走向惡性循環。"},{"start":7207.337,"end":7235.931,"text":"當公職的榮譽感消失只剩血汗與過勞誰還想當公務員無人意識到嚴重性全民將付出代價這是一場無聲的集體告別在座有很多的公務員的我們的夥伴那事實上旅長也知道我曾經說過我自己也是第一份工作是公務員當兵退伍以後"},{"start":7236.636,"end":7261.089,"text":"通過高考在公家機關住過兩年所以我非常非常能夠體會這個時代的差別就是以前當公務員跟現在當公務員我覺得那個榮譽感我覺得是有很大的不一樣當時社會或是政府的國家的政策對公務員是非常在乎尊重跟禮遇的"},{"start":7261.721,"end":7288.08,"text":"但這幾年我覺得有些東西是改變了好 那我就要請教一下這個天下雜誌它特別強調缺工的現象缺工啦 公務員的工啦那學界跟媒體也都一直在指出這個問題的嚴重性那我想請問現在公務員離退跟缺額的狀況如何你認為嚴重嗎"},{"start":7290.751,"end":7291.094,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":7293.025,"end":7320.852,"text":"離退的問題我覺得它跟那個制度設計有關這個先不談但是缺工的部分我覺得它的確在某些部分某些特定的領域尤其是它會反映在特定的區域上面會變得的確非常的嚴重那就這一點所以我們也一直在跟行政院這邊討論因為從教考訓用到流採好幾個面向不是完全考試院決策的範圍那這裡面有大家都一起來努力就怎麼樣可以來提升其實我們有一些工作圈在推動相關的工作"},{"start":7321.252,"end":7339.57,"text":"基本上我看到了很多數字我個人是覺得相當嚴重那以2024年公務員的辭職3094人退休9758人人數跟占比都創五年新高我不知道去年的數字狀況如何 有改善嗎"},{"start":7343.091,"end":7366.286,"text":"根文報這應該是去年2024年的一個狀況2025年的數字應該還沒有出來因為現在才3月份那你覺得呢 以部長你現在有改善嗎退休的部分一定會增加因為我們有追60歲的我知道我知道 是退休我先放的我又要問辭職辭職的部分我想差不多可能在那個數字"},{"start":7368.487,"end":7390.769,"text":"但是數字真的還沒出來除了說今天辭職退休離退的人數佔比創新高報考人數當然我們已經談很久了也是一直在下跌大幅的減少那其中根據統計中央部會缺額率最高包括外交部、陸委會、訴發部、行政院、院本部都名列前茅"},{"start":7391.249,"end":7417.467,"text":"為什麼這些部會會特別我確實看了那個報告那我可以講說他的那個算法跟實務上真的有落差就分子分母的算法跟實務上的落差用我們比較精確技術上講他真的高估蠻多的高估蠻多的那我現在問嘛中央部會如果說他說的這幾個部會不是缺額率最高那哪些部會會比較高實際上這部分總署負責並不是那個總署負責"},{"start":7421.509,"end":7450.07,"text":"其實我覺得報告裡面有點到一些問題也是我在了解確實在我們的公務體系當中很多公務員面臨到的問題包括業務膨脹但待遇不夠那缺二率攀高工作量變大這是惡性循環嘛然後接下來公務體系如果開始淪為血汗工廠大家更不敢去那另外剛剛我看前面秘書長也在備詢的時候也提到一件事就是說公務人員的考試跟一般民間是不一樣的"},{"start":7450.899,"end":7479.519,"text":"你光備考的那個所謂的成本就非常的高所以當你的所謂的民間的公司跟公務員現在能夠提供的保障大家覺得差別不大或是甚至相對來講限制更多的時候那為什麼要花那麼多時間去準備這公務員的考試呢所以這中間就是出現一個我覺得很大的一個落差那這落差我覺得政府事實上我覺得最大責任還是在我們的中央政府手上啦"},{"start":7479.98,"end":7495.616,"text":"你的考試的政策你的所謂的全序的政策你的所謂人事的政策如果沒有辦法提供足夠的誘因的話就像剛剛部長講秘書長講的說要想要減科來去減少他們進入的門檻可是我就要問一件事情"},{"start":7496.317,"end":7513.909,"text":"那以前其實所謂的考試的門檻相對高的時候並沒有影響公務人員的報考的意願那為什麼現在要用到說檢科的方式降低他的所謂的時間成本來增加意願他會顯現現在時代上一個很嚴重的差別嗎Misra你覺得呢"},{"start":7515.31,"end":7532.51,"text":"我覺得比較大的差別可能就是說民間的薪資水準跟民間求職的機會多不多當這個都比較高的時候公部門這邊就沒有那麼高的誘因我們看到某些時候就是說當民間大家年輕人覺得求職比較困難他可能會有來報考也許就試一下"},{"start":7533.251,"end":7548.984,"text":"但是那個而且在我們上一代的時候大家也覺得說公務員是真的比較有保障那是因為民間沒有那麼多誘因跟這個蓬勃發展的機會其實這一點我覺得民主黨我有點保留啦至少我自己在報告公務員的年代那時候也稱之為台灣經濟起飛年代啦"},{"start":7549.484,"end":7573.806,"text":"所以民間其實還是工作非常熱門的但是公務員報考那個政府機關工作他有一部分還是基於榮譽感他覺得做這個工作覺得是為國效力是也受到國家的尊重但是我覺得這幾年我覺得文官的所謂尊嚴跟自信心是受到一些衝擊我現在引一些東西我覺得希望我們考試院我們考試院是文官最大的後盾"},{"start":7574.673,"end":7596.831,"text":"那媒體的一些報導,我覺得你們也是參考一下,他說政治人為博聲量,廣開議題戰場,讓公務員忙得不可開交那社群時代加速輿論發酵速度,又讓文官體制淪為回應的螺絲釘那裡面直接點名行政院秘書長張敦涵,說一上任要求各部會照三餐,回報於情"},{"start":7597.672,"end":7612.183,"text":"結果公務體系被迫化身成社群小編然後整天清早然後24小時要開始去分類收集輿情然後變成小編在粉專發文那這個現象我說真的"},{"start":7613.144,"end":7638.292,"text":"當然跟現在時代改變有關係啦可是你怎麼樣讓公務員今天能夠不是負擔那麼重的所謂的政府的內宣或外宣的工作能夠專注在自己本務上的一個所謂的經營創造一個好的環境我這需要考試院跟行政院去多去磋商去努力去保護我們工作我們公務員的工作跟尊嚴以上謝謝委員意見"},{"start":7642.404,"end":7648.887,"text":"主席在正式開始前先跟主席做個詢問跟建議我看到我們那個考試院業務報告"},{"start":7670.725,"end":7690.775,"text":"蓋礦報告及立法計劃那因為呢我們的憲法體制五院是平等的那因為立法院向行政院向立法院負責所以我們司法法治委員會只要是行政院的部會來當然是用蓋礦報告跟做立法的一個報告但是因為考試院跟我們是平行單位是否考慮考慮說以後這個業務報告變成介紹"},{"start":7693.897,"end":7714.341,"text":"他跟我們介紹業務然後他是跟我們對立法計畫的說明啦因為畢竟我們今天不是在對他們進行質詢我們是在因為我們要了解立法所以需要他們來幫我們做個說明只是一個建議啦可以參考我想我們這個部分之後跟主秘我們這邊再來討論一下因為這好像也是行之多年的慣例"},{"start":7715.181,"end":7735.738,"text":"其實我在當召委的時候我有注意不過沒關係 這個我們尊重召委也希望司法法制委員會能夠考量一下因為五院是平等的好 那我們就來邀請我們的這個劉秘書長還有施部長還有這個蔡主任委員來幫我們做個介紹我們了解你們的立法計畫委員長"},{"start":7738.479,"end":7746.346,"text":"好 秘書長好 部長好 主委好請教一下秘書長今年是馬年嘛馬有很多種馬嘛 今年是哪一種馬下一頁是丙午馬嘛 對不對丙午嘛齁 丙午馬年那你有沒有聽過甲午有嗎齁你覺得甲午比較好還是丙午比較好甲比較好還是丙比較好"},{"start":7760.848,"end":7776.82,"text":"沒有差別啊 天干地支嘛我小時候的學校很小我國小只有四個班啊我是念丙班的啊那甲班的同學是不是比我好也沒有啊我大學那個考那個選擇題ABCDEABCDE哪一個答案最好"},{"start":7778.072,"end":7792.578,"text":"也沒有A比較好啊 都填A嗎對不對更何況我家隔壁鄰居的孩子他念醫學系我是念歷史系我就跟媽媽說媽媽他醫學系沒有了不起他是丙組的我是乙組的好歹還贏他一個組有沒有道理"},{"start":7794.298,"end":7814.154,"text":"沒有道理嘛所以不管ABCD加一餅它根本不是一個什麼高下的順序嘛小時候我們拿國小成績單我拿到什麼我拿到算數優國語良體育可勞作劣那是不是很清楚表達我的能力那請問我們公務人員的考機怎麼表達來下一頁聽到乙等炸鍋啊乙不好嗎我是乙組的欸"},{"start":7823.407,"end":7849.926,"text":"民主黨 了解我的意思齁你們的考計法是不是要改變一下真實的去反映工人員的表現有嗎 可以考慮一下嗎是 這個也是我們要處理的重點謝謝 謝謝我想我是說因為文組的比較咬文嚼字啦齁我們請教一個問題齁台中地院一等懲處結果炸鍋是被懲處人炸鍋嗎 不是啦是被懲處的這個被一等的懲處他是怎樣詐騙犯 判刑 忘了執行"},{"start":7851.147,"end":7873.744,"text":"還被監察院糾正結果回到機關懲處考慮疑等你知道誰不服嗎跟這一個司法官同時期考慮疑等的司法官都不服啊他這樣都疑等 那我疑等算什麼民主黨你會不會覺得這樣好像有點不公平你也知道我們公會機關有沒有輪流刺激的部分有嘛 有些機關叫做交互吞掉你有沒有聽過交互吞掉"},{"start":7874.987,"end":7900.528,"text":"因為我們的比例嘛就是最差的那兩個人只有一定要有一個是乙等嘛所以今年我明年你我們就交互蹲跳嘛那會不會影響到我的機關調動升遷我們有啊我們都常常我在地方政府當副首長的時候常常要調動升遷過去三年不能有兩年以上考慮乙等嘛那我交互蹲跳我搞不好那三年或兩年是蹲乙那我就不能做啦有沒有這個情況"},{"start":7901.772,"end":7910.165,"text":"民長你都了解嗎所以我今天呢聽你們的這個業務的介紹我也很好奇說你們的修法計畫怎麼樣來吸引優秀的人你們修法計畫打算怎麼做"},{"start":7912.045,"end":7937.49,"text":"請部長來說明部長好來各位委員報告那個方向這樣大概您剛剛提的東西我們都不會做就不會去往那個方向走所以往好的方向好那我們好的方向來我們目前就是會用什麼優良可略這類的方式比較會我們大概會用三個概念就是分成三個也不會固定比例也不會固定比例很好那你們有沒有考慮過去"},{"start":7938.71,"end":7963.747,"text":"好的跟普通的考機獎金只差0.5個月這個會不會調整這個也都在討論的範圍是我們來看一下來我們最近棒球熱狼如果說我現在職棒球員啊打全壘打拿勝投拿MVP奪冠貢獻程度不同嘛如果說職棒球員說來中下平均球員有上場的一律激勵金100塊如果K出的全壘打多200塊我會去爭取打全壘打嗎"},{"start":7967.741,"end":7970.622,"text":"你會覺得這樣的一個差距不足以激勵公務員的士氣差距這麼小有沒有可能有多一點把它差距拉大讓他感受有一點比較強烈應該這樣講"},{"start":7989.691,"end":8004.339,"text":"老師我先講這個前一陣子我們考試院通過一個激勵辦法我們先希望用激勵辦法平時讓主管就有經費對於表現好的公務同仁隨時就可以不要只用年終的考機獎金"},{"start":8005.84,"end":8030.53,"text":"我們應該走這兩個方式一起來處理這樣才是一個比較完整即使獎勵比那個年終耶但年終我們一樣會處理這個部分所以你們包括我這邊寫的取消了甲等的三就是網路平台嘛對不對第二個有人提議說把這個機率呢擴大或者說經常秘書長這是代表我們考試院希望我們立法院在修法的時候能夠支持這樣的看法這是你們大院的態度嗎秘書長剛剛部長所做的這些"},{"start":8034.371,"end":8047.564,"text":"其實我們為什麼前面是先跟院跟部先做了很多次的討論就是我們希望說院內大概對於改革方向有相當共識那現在就是在跟外部溝通當中外部溝通就是包括我們公務體系很好"},{"start":8049.325,"end":8071.032,"text":"好來我們來看一下希望你們有機會去新加坡看一下新加坡他的積極差異化獎勵制度留住人蠶了你看有做這些有專家組成排序小組分為五個考積的等地不是加一餅丁物是可能是優良可略差什麼之類的常態各地的常態分布前五趴可以拿三個月的底薪那個薪水寫錯了薪要扣你少了"},{"start":8074.305,"end":8098.292,"text":"這個有沒有辦法來參考一下新加坡新加坡工人的待遇是很好的耶有沒有可能往這個方向來調待遇水準的部分他們真的是全世界算是頂尖是啊但這你們管不到啦因為這是主計跟人總啊某些獎勵的概念其實我覺得多數國家的像是對烤雞的評定啦他們都是在獎勵最前面的特殊表現然後肯定中間的那個部分是大多數的人"},{"start":8099.412,"end":8126.65,"text":"那 但是尾巴該注意的人還是要把它找到是 對 最後老鼠你剛剛講了 我後面講了後面要怎麼處理 來像這些啦除了積極攬財之外呢 汰換制度同等重要嘛考紀法第八條嘛什麼之類的人呢非有這種情況不得考慮丁等 丁等就是列啦叫太儲的啦挑撥離間啦 不聽指揮啦嚴當公務啦 平心不端啦很誇張嘛 對不對結果呢 很多這樣的情況之下怎樣"},{"start":8127.833,"end":8149.319,"text":"如果不夠誇張還是拿平等 還是拿什麼 殼啊所以到底這些用詞 法律的用詞都很抽象怎麼樣讓公務人員又說警惕最後面這些該汰除的他不會因為這樣的關係在懲處的時候就拿個殼 敘留部長你的看法呢 這些文字內容是不是要量化而不是只用抽象的中文"},{"start":8149.679,"end":8174.074,"text":"我跟委員報告我們對於所謂未來一個方式除了講工作考機年度考機我們另外一塊是行為面的行為面就是走專案懲處我們把這些東西事實上都會在專案懲處裡面非常距離化什麼事情碰到機關就要及時處理所以專案懲處後所留下的平時的紀錄在年終考機的時候就可以量化來處理還是會反應好 最後呢 來"},{"start":8174.714,"end":8190.183,"text":"所以最後請秘書長跟部長是不是支持我們一個月內提出這些內容那為什麼我請主委上來呢因為我覺得今天部長跟主委都是學界出身我希望你們在提供我這些資料的時候能夠勾結一下在保訓會因為保訓會裡面處理會會有兩種情況"},{"start":8193.365,"end":8212.543,"text":"一種是的確是那種烤雞該很差的他的申訴沒有效一種是呢的確有冤枉的那你們把這兩種情況勾結回他當時機關的原烤雞去對照就能抓出說怎麼樣的烤雞是如實如質的可不可以部長 主委可以協助嗎這是要我們跨部會來協助"},{"start":8213.875,"end":8234.743,"text":"對 我想跟委員報告 我想我剛剛已經報告了 部裡面大概下禮拜最晚這個月底我們會正式公告 徵詢意見把我們所有的想法 條文 具體都有報告了我的意思是說還包括去參考我們保訓會去跟他們申訴的 可能有些過當的或不足的你們也都可以主委 表達一下跟委員報告 這沒有問題是好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主委也謝謝秘書長 謝謝"},{"start":8244.363,"end":8267.897,"text":"好 謝謝鍾委員 謝謝好 那接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言那麼在 我們先做程序宣告待會兒在程培宇委員發言完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘好 謝謝 接下來請莊委員發言謝謝莊委 我們請考試院 我們劉建新秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":8272.529,"end":8275.384,"text":"剛才兩位部長起床 施部長 全序部"},{"start":8276.8,"end":8304.768,"text":"好 請市部長好 委員長市部長 還有部長那我想啊這個本席今天針對考試院推動啊這個國家考試啊電腦化這樣的一個決心來表達這個肯定而且是高度的一個肯定但是呢在這個數位的數位化的浪潮底下那浊江的一個變革確實是一個重大的一個里程碑今年是"},{"start":8308.83,"end":8316.935,"text":"我覺得很大的感慨,這30年,這個改變真的很大。我30年前,在你們考試院後,律師我那年考到30年前到現在,寫到這樣,整天兩天考到後,手都快麻了。"},{"start":8324.815,"end":8346.701,"text":"但是這個改革我覺得是對畢竟時代在走那確實是制度要跟上可是我比較擔心就是說有時候政策對但是細節常常是決定它到底是成功還是翻車像國考的電腦化怎麼樣才會做好"},{"start":8353.591,"end":8364.417,"text":"那這個方向我們說是對的啊但是呢為什麼說細節如果沒有做好的話會出很大的一個問題啊你像譬如這一次你們這樣這個磁庫的一個問題啊這當然你說現在你說不開放自建的一個磁庫這個可以理解啦這是為了防避嘛 為了防避啦可是呢"},{"start":8375.911,"end":8387.31,"text":"這個整個制度變革以後以現在我們這個以前參加過考試的人幾十年後來看這個你會覺得也很好玩的地方因為現在這個私律的一個考試"},{"start":8389.475,"end":8412.063,"text":"第一階段現在也有選擇體驗,這個在30年前都很難想像的啦第二階段現在就開始說,不然就先來充電腦來做一個硬式那我的問題就是說,我們很擔心這個考試到最後都逼什麼人拍得很快這個很怪,我們當年在考試是怕我們字寫得醜"},{"start":8413.423,"end":8418.605,"text":"建新你做一個電視委員 你跟人家改課程 看了幾分這個字像鬼話壺一樣 那分數還靠掉了 藝生漂亮的人分數比較高我如果是電視委員在打評分的時候 我看那個字看起來舒服我多給他一分兩分 那也很合理啊可是那個考試常常就是 尤其是國家考試是要看那個人的聽度"},{"start":8436.99,"end":8446.497,"text":"到底說他的見解 還是說這個資格裡面這個人程度是不是好的現在這個考試要扶公職現在大家做這種 大家在爬山爬魚比賽這個也怪但問題 我也認為說國家考試 考選的一個制度與時俱進數位化這當然是必經之路啦但是為什麼說 必須要去非常注意的就是說"},{"start":8463.47,"end":8487.888,"text":"你也要有一個溫暖的配套啦你現在不開放個人持庫 我認為還好為了防避 可是你也必須要去做一套標準的法律的一個持庫的內建我認為這樣比較合理啦不然到時候大家練俄法律的人 司律考試律師跟司法官到最後要來比輸入的速度 這好奇怪"},{"start":8488.991,"end":8516.783,"text":"考到之後去做書要看一天就不用打字嘛做了書他也不用打字嘛他說我們這套制度就是那些你來比速度好怪你有覺得很奇怪嗎跟委員報告我們會限制在傳統的八頁五千兩百字一分鐘頂多四十到五十字考生就可以非常有把握的把那一個這一個八頁裡面的用完所以拼速度沒有用"},{"start":8517.623,"end":8531.55,"text":"因為它是有次數限制的所以我的意思我都很擔心這個變革當然你說一定要像以前那樣好像也不對兩天下來真的會烤死人但是現在考生比較焦慮的是你的鍵盤是什麼"},{"start":8533.931,"end":8541.142,"text":"那滑鼠是什麼?螢幕是什麼?我也沒有看過所以我在本席這個地方就站在一個考生我們這些以前都可能課到還沒叫完的因為簡單的一個要求就是說我們提早在公佈那個設備規格跟型號"},{"start":8549.955,"end":8554.077,"text":"我如果做大人的,我孩子要去課的,我就覺得我們買一張單本,買幾千塊,要去那個設備、規格,放回去我們先來適應一下。我認為,你如果沒有讓他先適應的話,這種變革,到最後好像在幹什麼呢?好像那個抽盲盒一樣,我不知道伯父你會看什麼。"},{"start":8570.164,"end":8586.858,"text":"跟委員報告 這個我們預計在7月到8月的時候我們會在我們的網站公佈根據每一個學校 就是我們的市場公佈它每一間教室是怎樣的鍵盤跟滑鼠所以考生到時候他一旦知道自己在分配到哪一個"},{"start":8587.939,"end":8614.727,"text":"市場他就可以去查閱這第一個第二個我們所用的這些鍵盤跟滑鼠一定都要標準版我們不會有任何奇怪的東西但是我們還是會提供讓他們可以查閱所以你那個規格的設備你不要讓人家知道啊對 就是我們在七八月的時候會在網頁公佈那你剛提到的那個就是說沒有我們的小規模你就說像那個考場那個其實我倒這樣認為啦你有一個有一個模擬的一個機制你現在有線上模擬我怕這樣不夠就是說你像剛才說的"},{"start":8616.414,"end":8619.778,"text":"我們有考生實際進入到考場,我一個小規模的,進去給你實體去試打,喔,那筆整個就是這樣,寫下去之後,就像柏中說的,買那個奇怪怪的規格出來,"},{"start":8630.915,"end":8654.16,"text":"這個就是在講說,數位的轉型,我們要適合考生,那個叫溫度啦!數位轉型,我們這個改革裡面,我們也必須要一個溫度啦!這樣沒問題嗎?這兩行都沒問題嗎?沒有問題,跟委員報告,目前我們是三件事情第一件事情,其實我們上週末已經有140個現在的法律系學生,他們先來試,那我們正在收回饋,再進行微調,這第一個"},{"start":8655.04,"end":8671.875,"text":"那第二個就是說如委員所說的我們預計也是盡量可以在一個比較適當的時間,是不是在北中南都可以去協調學校來提供那個實際他們可以去適應一下大概這樣的市場長什麼樣子,這是第二個"},{"start":8672.876,"end":8689.112,"text":"那第三個就是說我們其實跟委員報告我們這樣的一個小型的實體測驗時間我們還是希望可能會比較抓在一次就是說大概在那個之後因為否則這樣下去現在的時候一方面我們還在調整"},{"start":8689.672,"end":8711.287,"text":"另一方面也就是比較擔心影響目前的目前要考一次的考生的備考但是我們會提供像委員所說的我們現在在北中南到時候在考試前提供那還有就是我們考試前我們現在在上億我們在第一節開考前拉長他們可以來先來就是適應的時間盡量把它拉長這個秘書長我認為"},{"start":8714.525,"end":8742.215,"text":"這個對於整個私立考試第二次改採這個電腦的一個硬式喔這是國家考選制度的一個與時俱進的一個重大的一個里程碑啊這你們要衝的好誰啦 這不要開玩笑變成說一個重大的一個改變另外第二個喔 這個部長你請回喔我要來請秘書長就是說剛才我想很多委員會講到那個考機的制度啦這個考機制度喔 真麻煩 你就知道你"},{"start":8743.435,"end":8757.902,"text":"這 你也非常清楚啦 之前的就是為什麼大家會比較不去相信這個制度啊就是說 現在你們的考試怎麼分配名額啦新人去買 你看你就等我去買而已啊沒有啊 算很好了啊 甚至於"},{"start":8761.684,"end":8788.43,"text":"大家乙的人就是輪流像比如說剛剛前面兩位委員我看到他們都提到那個縱放人犯那個部分都被人家罰乙等對不對問題是說如果我們等到去賣我們如果做到要死也要乙等所以這個有時候你去看縱放人犯的乙等做到要死也乙等譬如說我一千塊的乙等如果是75%的要吃等"},{"start":8791.843,"end":8809.554,"text":"就長期讓人家感覺這不是在看表現你就是在框一個比例而已啦你現在說要來取消加等的一個上限不是不可以但是我要提醒的就是說你如果沒有一個配套的話還是會產生一些不公平"},{"start":8810.445,"end":8822.727,"text":"還是會產生一些不公平長期以來 做官的 譬如我做秘書長 應該你不會啦 你例外啦做到官做部長的人 我比較害怕的 比較害怕的 最好就是人之常情啊"},{"start":8824.053,"end":8844.606,"text":"很合理啊 人就是這樣子啊但問題就是說對那些努力的人 你看不見啦有時候擔憂很大的話你也看不見啦有些考試也輪不到你打啦我們只是看那個制度這樣在運作所以長期就會產生這樣的一個不公平所以我倒認為就是說有沒有可能我看現在國防部那個不錯"},{"start":8846.167,"end":8861.174,"text":"國安部現在你看下隊上同儕都要去做一個評分量化多項去做一個評價甚至與聯機校的部分用記錄來講話不要靠印象我這個當長官的我對你印象多好"},{"start":8862.145,"end":8866.948,"text":"那是我對你好,你給我拍馬屁啊,或是說你給我人緣啊,你給我人緣好啊,看起來好啊應該是有落實這樣的一個績效的一個基點的一個制度啦甚至於呢,這有時候做主觀的都要自肥,所以那個點數的一個分配,你給它設一個上限"},{"start":8883.239,"end":8901.975,"text":"讓整個公務人員這樣的一個烤雞的制度讓它變得比較公平一點要不然現在公務人員的一個體系裡面很多人人才進不來然後優秀的又留不住簡單講 秘書長你做一個回應好不好"},{"start":8902.54,"end":8918.106,"text":"好 謝謝委員我先澄清就是我們不是朝所謂的假等不設上限這種這樣的一個做法因為我們其實是簡單講打掉重練就是我們會設立一個新的架構所以不是用原來的架構去微調這樣的處理"},{"start":8919.767,"end":8943.056,"text":"那在我們新的法案其實強調就是說你要很明確的要辨識出表現真的非常特殊傑出的人因為他這個年度有重大貢獻例如說在防疫那幾年我們就知道有些人他的對國家對人民有特殊重大貢獻你要給他獎勵那在考機的部分可以反映到最頂尖的部分那另外一部分呢真的有需要這個繼續觀察或者是要檢討的人也要把它辨識出來"},{"start":8944.136,"end":8966.551,"text":"那其他的部分我們就不要去複製過去這種所謂的3比1的75%這樣的一個比例因為它就創造出兩種不滿一個是拿到疑等人覺得我跟拿假的人沒有差那麼多或甚至根本就一樣根本就是輪流這種不滿另外一種是說其實表現最頂尖的人會其實跟平均甚至平均值以下一部分的人"},{"start":8967.557,"end":8993.824,"text":"得到一樣的獎勵這個看起來也不合理所以我們希望就是說我們還是回歸到一般常態分貝的那個結構那多數的稱職付出辛勞的同仁都得到一致的獎勵但是我們辨識出最優秀的部分然後可以特殊的獎勵那甚至剛剛部長有講我們也還有我們的獎勵辦法裡面還有平時的即時獎勵就不是考積的部分但即時獎勵也可以去強化這個部分"},{"start":8994.404,"end":9023.055,"text":"所以我們是把那個結構重新再打破重新架構一次其實考試的公平跟考積的公平這兩樣東西喔這個涉及到整個公務體系的喔這個考試院這個地方其實你們應該可以更加把勁要進來科技要公平合理啊你說考積要公平這也很合理啊2月6日大家也希望可以合理啊這個制度喔到現在這個制度就是說有那個不平啦我不敢說讓大家多失望"},{"start":9023.715,"end":9044.193,"text":"75%你如果站在好的人 多數的人都會說好我站在這裡等我再說你的口氣壞再說你這個制度壞 我一定說你好的但是如果有不公平的話 我們就會發現這個國家就會流失很多人才這個部分我們請考試院再加把勁讓整個制度更完整 更來精進 好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝鍾委員接下來我們請陳佩玉委員發言"},{"start":9055.814,"end":9079.722,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請全序部 施部長好 請施部長好 施部長早安有一件事情要先謝謝您來下一張我們在今年一月的時候呢有快速跟您討論關於這個公務人員媒合機制的平台的事情謝謝你們非常快速迅速地做了回應而且我知道你們跟任總有做一個方案跟規劃 對嗎"},{"start":9081.483,"end":9098.679,"text":"對也謝謝任總因為這還是要透過他的平台是是是那因為他今天沒有在被主席邀請出席的名單不過我還是把相關問題提回去還是要拜託全序部持續跟任總討論怎麼說呢因為當時裡面我們提到一個非常重要的事情是新上任剛考上這些公務員他們可能就"},{"start":9099.099,"end":9128.719,"text":"大概有百分之二十到二十五是选择就不到任就放弃了选择重考当时我们就有考虑过是不是因为他们被分发的地方可能是离他们的家乡太远离他们现在的家庭社区太远所以我们当时会跟任总还有全序部提出这个建议主要还有一个部分是针对这个新考上的公务员可是我们现在看到你们跟任总设计出了这个平台我们问了任总他说因为尚未具有公务人员任用资格非属申签法第三条之适用之对象"},{"start":9129.239,"end":9151.427,"text":"好那問題就剛好出現在法規範跟我們有心想要完成促進的這個平台之間剛好有這個法規上的空缺我不會說是漏洞是空缺因為確實這些剛考上的人他沒有報到他在法理上他就不是所謂的公務員那我們想了一想我們想要請教一下施部長實務上我們可以怎麼幫助這些公務員來下一張"},{"start":9153.584,"end":9182.228,"text":"我們在想說如果這百分之二十幾的人他們因為沒有報到因為他們可能看到自己被分發的地方不是他們要去的他們就選擇不報到那我們到底要怎麼解決我們試著在像現行的法規裡面找到一個可能性也想跟全序部討論看看下一張目前在公務人員考試及格人員分發辦法裡面第十一條有講到這個考試及格的分發辦法相關這三條都沒有我們都沒有什麼問題但是我們在想如果讓高"},{"start":9182.768,"end":9206.95,"text":"高普考及格的人也可以准用這個公務人員互調交流平台的機制有沒有辦法在這個分發辦法裡面加上第四條第四款呢就叫做讓高普考及格的人也可以用有沒有這個可能當然我都說需要討論我們只是先提出我們因為之前的問題是我們提出的嘛那謝謝你們進一步做了平台可是這些考上及格的人他可能分發報到"},{"start":9208.331,"end":9236.358,"text":"他發現地點不是他要去的所以他可能就還是沒有來因為在你們的平台裡面說這些人不適用所以我把這個問題再提出來部長你不用現在回答我我知道我只是要拜託你們這真的是一個tough的question我們一起努力好不好謝謝部長那就拜託那我們辦公室也會再把相關資料提交給全庶部跟人總拜託你們持續協助我們一起解決這些優秀的年輕公務員可以報到而且是他們想去的地方然後代表我們公務機關其實是有誠意的好不好"},{"start":9236.778,"end":9259.054,"text":"我想後續有些需要的時候再跟委員互動討論好 那兩個月內會不會太趕我覺得這個事情可能涉及到很嚴肅的法律那沒關係 我們時間就先不壓我的意思是說是不是隨時 如果需要的話我們隨時保持討論好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 部長請回 謝謝那我們一起努力 感謝接下來有請保訓會蔡主委 謝謝確實是很難的問題 部長 沒錯"},{"start":9266.724,"end":9287.352,"text":"主委有一件事要跟您討論一下是我們現在在服務現場實際遇到的困境所以我們需要跟您討論就法規上的解讀來下一張我們服務在馬祖那馬祖現在有一個北甘鄉的衛生所醫師請注意他是公費醫師回鄉服務那他在服務的期間呢兩三年期間持續受到霸凌"},{"start":9288.012,"end":9315.279,"text":"那他呢就向衛生局他是誰霸凌他是衛生局的局長霸凌他那衛生局的上層機關當然就是連江縣政府嘛他就去跟連江縣政府申請說他被霸凌然後他需要協助這樣結果連江縣政府跟他說啊你是衛生所的醫師你現在要被申訴的這個人是衛生局的局長那衛生所跟衛生局不是同一個單位所以連江縣政府不受理"},{"start":9316.328,"end":9334.899,"text":"他這樣說完之後他還打電話給這個醫師說我們問過保訓會了保訓會說你們是不同單位所以不用受理而且還說不會用公文來回覆這個被霸凌的醫師我覺得很莫名其妙我們在處理這個事情的時候他們就莫名其妙把保訓會拉出來了我們認真研究了法規之後"},{"start":9335.919,"end":9355.811,"text":"我們發現保訓會應該要有一些角色但會不會是連江縣政府胡假虎威假借保訓會的名義說不關縣政府的事情所以我們研究了一下所以我想要請教一下主委幾個問題第一個衛生局跟衛生所是不同單位所以我們無法受理這個說法成立嗎"},{"start":9356.932,"end":9365.96,"text":"跟委員報告如果從法治於上面原來的那個我們的保障法他其實是focus在這個同一機關但是"},{"start":9367.759,"end":9396.674,"text":"由於在整個的食物運作上面那衛生所的主任他當然是受衛生局局長的業務指揮然後呢甚至於連他的烤雞然後呢業務交辦等等所以在我們的解釋上面我們把它視同是同一機關所以這個當然連江縣政府他回覆說您剛有提到說是連江縣政府來問我們保訓會他跟我們說我們有打"},{"start":9397.294,"end":9414.319,"text":"電話給保訊會他我猜想他會不會連公文都沒有發給你們保訊會他至於等一下而且我要幫他多說一句他搞不好有沒有打我都打一個問號喔是這個我請我們的那個安慰處處長比較清楚他他有來過有嗎連江縣政府有問你們這個事嗎"},{"start":9416.035,"end":9433.607,"text":"跟委員報告 連江縣政府已經行文來 穩了什麼時候 行文 什麼時候行文 應該是上個禮拜的上個禮拜 那我告訴你這個事情已經持續快兩年了所以他被我們追到不行 他們現在來跟你們求救我要說連江縣政府真的很糟糕這個被申訴的衛生局局長真的很糟糕"},{"start":9434.548,"end":9450.411,"text":"不是你們的問題好 所以謝謝你們那你們收到公文之後你們就要回覆他們對不對會 當然好 那我要說如果按照主委你剛剛的解釋他其實在法理上你們會認定他是同一個單位那既然他是同一個單位他是不是就應該要受理相關的霸凌案是"},{"start":9451.152,"end":9466.554,"text":"他就是跟連江縣政府去連江縣政府是他的上級機關是好太好了那我們會持續追蹤最後跟您請教一個問題這一位公費醫師他在法律身份上算不算公務人員保障法裡面所保障的公務人員"},{"start":9467.475,"end":9490.883,"text":"算算是拜託再大聲一點算算我會去告訴連江縣政府保訓會主委告訴大家這位公費醫師是屬於公務人員保障法裡面要保障的公務人員好如果是這樣現在如果用公務人員職場霸凌處理指引他們的法定申訴管道應該向誰提出我可以回答說他應該還是要向連江縣政府直接提出對嗎對"},{"start":9492.043,"end":9509.299,"text":"好 太好了如果後續我們在處理上有相關的爭議跟問題我們辦公室會再持續協助這位公費醫師因為我要強調他是一位非常年輕的公費醫師他之所以到北甘鄉市那是他的家鄉他自願請調回家鄉做公費醫師的服務而且他告訴我"},{"start":9509.94,"end":9537.568,"text":"他還想繼續留在那裡他還想留在家鄉我要說公費醫師現在有多麼的珍貴而這個年輕醫師卻因為這個霸凌案被連江縣政府衛生局跟連江縣政府不當對待我們會持續追蹤後續在相關法規上也需要保訓會協助我們好嗎好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝委員 謝謝好我們就依先前的程序已經做了宣告我們就現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9562.984,"end":9565.133,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見!"},{"start":9568.55,"end":9579.193,"text":"對 但是後來在podcast的時候我就直接說你好是張曉筠"},{"start":9598.642,"end":9605.868,"text":"他說病入膏孔保险器怪多一點我印象對我就是就是很懲罰很懲罰的部分"},{"start":9637.563,"end":9653.267,"text":"有啊,有啊,有啊"},{"start":9677.25,"end":9677.69,"text":"現在就是你看這個風的聲音"},{"start":9713.057,"end":9718.685,"text":"哈哈哈哈"},{"start":9720.751,"end":9722.052,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見!"},{"start":9748.101,"end":9749.722,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":9758.012,"end":9769.497,"text":"就是那種協商不得協商的方式對對象的理解跟訪問是不太一樣的我們原先對象的協商是針對國安實現的那種國安實現是以前就有的但是那是修好現在的國家是比較好學的"},{"start":9782.565,"end":9792.53,"text":"那裡都比較像古牌子所以我們就要加一個圓圓那所以我們就說如果有的形容的那個機關就是一個圓圓圓圓圓圓圓圓圓圓圓圓圓"},{"start":9798.933,"end":9817.671,"text":"對,對,對對,對,對"},{"start":9818.666,"end":9833.011,"text":"他後來就把他修輯了並且我們把他修輯深層點一個前面就是說跟國家安全有關的事項他已經破了這句話以後你再重新什麼什麼就有了這個東西涉及安全的事項他不得不講"},{"start":9842.739,"end":9856.145,"text":"所以其實這是屬於社安對 因為是個人安全不是個人安全 工作安全 屬於社安的問題是不簡單的問題可是那一部分如果你確定它會有經驗那個經驗比如說我現在正在做什麼東西要有不分的經驗可是你看 直接的有不分的經驗還是不分的經驗"},{"start":9882.321,"end":9883.161,"text":"蜜桃"},{"start":9890.283,"end":9891.645,"text":"謝謝大家收看,下次見!"},{"start":9916.394,"end":9940.594,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會那接下來就有請徐宇甄委員謝謝主席 是我們現在請考試院秘書長 考選部長及全序部長好 請秘書長還有兩位部長委員長"},{"start":9944.153,"end":9961.959,"text":"早 兩位部長早MU長我想請教一下就是我國的這個學子報考國考的人數逐年的下滑那從考選部的資料顯示報考高普考的人數從105年的95,062人報考到114年只剩下57,707人MU長您對於報考人數的這個下降的趨勢您怎麼"},{"start":9972.123,"end":9992.316,"text":"我們了解這個狀況當然也會很重視這個事情那如何重視呢其實我們就針對這個國考人數下降的部分我們覺得就是說第一個就是考試如果剛剛有講過考試真的讓硬職者付出很大的求職成本"},{"start":9993.197,"end":10008.192,"text":"那我們現在面對民間的人才的需求的競爭的確是處於比較不利的局面所以第一個我想就考試的怎麼樣更友善一點那我們就在推動高補考檢科降低這個考試的障礙因為考生其實為了要考考試都要去補習班都要花很多錢"},{"start":10009.033,"end":10033.754,"text":"那第二個部分就是說我們也就只等調高的部分那個其實全局部都有在逐步的通盤檢討啦那其實最主要還是說哪些不足而入取的類科是最需要去緊急搶救的部分這個部分我們都有在跟行政院的相關部門組成工作圈來做各個面向的其實我想考試的你說科目減少事實上過去啦過去要報考這個國考其實"},{"start":10036.236,"end":10050.686,"text":"這個更為困難啦所以但是大家還是爭相的來去也報考我們的這個國家考試就是因為以前大家都認為公務人員就是金飯碗那有很好的保障那現在就是覺得相較於民間的這個公司我們"},{"start":10051.927,"end":10079.364,"text":"退休之後的保障呢縮減了很多所以讓他們不願意來報考國考才是我覺得才是最重要的原因所以針對應屆畢業生報考的部分就107年還有一萬六千多名的新生新鮮人報考但113年只剩下三千元只剩下三千人那請問一下114年應屆畢業生有多少人報考這個我請柔部長來說是請部長"},{"start":10080.973,"end":10099.179,"text":"就114年的應屆畢業生報考的不好意思 應屆畢業生我可能還要再查一下因為到去年就只剩3000人所以今年的應屆畢業生報考的可能相對更少喔那所以這個部分可能是不是再麻煩部長給本席辦公室相關的資料因為我這邊要陳述的就是說"},{"start":10100.559,"end":10121.558,"text":"卡西文部當然有提到說報考的人數減少是因為少子化還有現在外面的景氣好但是為什麼是在108年會出現斷崖式的下跌是不是因為107年年改上路之後所以造成這個讓年輕人看到政府帶頭毀約的這個負面示範所以"},{"start":10121.958,"end":10143.916,"text":"大學的畢業生才不願意報考公務員我跟委員報告就是說如果我們觀察考生人數變化看得久一點的話最高峰大概出現在民國一百年那前後三年那之後就急劇的下降我想跟當時的這個民間年輕人的薪資跟求職的困難產業西進有一些跟多少都有些關係啦"},{"start":10145.217,"end":10171.338,"text":"那您剛剛講是不是年改的因素我要講的就是說大概從101年開始它就急劇的下滑那一直到106年但是年改的因素一定也佔了很大一個部分它有沒有影響 對所以我說應該說我覺得不報考的原因有很多那您說其實就待遇面我覺得那個都是相對應它跟民間的時間的吸引力我想我們現在針對這個報考人數的這個報考人數的逐年下降"},{"start":10171.938,"end":10191.503,"text":"我們應該要提出一個務實的方法 除了您剛剛講的說這個報告科目 我覺得報告科目減少其實不是主要的原因 而是要怎麼增加他身為公務員的薪資待遇還有他的優越感讓他願意來為國家報效 而不是只是看這個薪資的部分我覺得這個部分才是應該我們要探討的一個重點"},{"start":10192.543,"end":10209.08,"text":"那當然在這邊也要特別的再請教一下我們的這個全旭部長部長我們現在就是要修改考積法的這個上限嘛那因為您也曾經講過現在的考積法已經沒有獎勵效果所以你們現在想要修改"},{"start":10209.44,"end":10225.28,"text":"不過以往我們的考機大概就是說真的很多單位都是照分配的輪著輪著你今年假等你明年已等但是呢因為這樣的關係就讓很多想要就是認真優秀的公務人員他覺得也可能我表現再好"},{"start":10225.74,"end":10242.602,"text":"每年也是有機會會輪到一等而不是都是假等所以您現在說放寬假等的一個這樣的上限可是現在看起來如果假設到時候一些長官都不願意當壞人然後全部都假等的話那要怎麼來去杜絕這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":10244.704,"end":10272.106,"text":"委員講的都是正確的就是說我們怎麼修法本身最後到還是事實性面但是我們在修法過程裡面可以減少我們不想要發生的事情所以我們的方向就是不要再用甲乙丙丁這樣一個很僵化的一個方式我們就基本上未來就是會請主管處理注意兩個部分一個是真的很好的同仁一定要把他找出來那如果真的工作表現不好你要把他找出來那其他呢大家就是"},{"start":10273.329,"end":10299.736,"text":"秤值表現工作良好大概是用這個方式那因為會不會有那種就是大家知道說反正都是主管在打烤雞的所以我就要去巴結主管讓他們給你這樣子的這個官場維諾的這樣子的一個工具呢我想是不會有這樣的一個當然我的意思是說打烤雞本身就很難完全科學化但是它是有管理的措施但是我們的制度設計會讓譬如像說未來是以條件說"},{"start":10300.896,"end":10328.364,"text":"就是說你一定要符合某一個條件核實你才可以打那個等次所以全序部這邊其實已經針對這個部分做好這樣子的一個對我們準備當然下禮拜就開始要徵詢正式徵詢機關跟公務人員的意見那大概什麼時候會送到本院來如果可以大家有一個共識的話我還是要講如果我們徵詢過程裡面大家還有覺得我們的方案不夠好我們就當然還要再討論我們不希望送出一個大家"},{"start":10329.184,"end":10344.897,"text":"意見很多了但是如果大家覺得我們剛剛那個想法是可以走的那順利的話我們會以這個會計為努力的目標我們的考期是能夠對於我們真正優秀的公務人員給他們一個鼓勵跟獎勵而不是為了打而打"},{"start":10345.758,"end":10368.206,"text":"而且我們平常也有 我們這次討論的過程裡面希望就是說我們剛修過我們是要大家另外善用平時的激勵獎勵的一個制度因為我想委員也有很多行政經驗知道有時候不是只有年終的時候給一個獎勵現在平常的時候就應該有一個機制給主管有這個機制獎勵這個同仁我想我們是希望有更多元的方式來處理這個事情"},{"start":10370.007,"end":10394.66,"text":"好 謝謝部長然後另外呢 我要再請教的就是我們根據 你們可以看一下我們公務體系的人才流失的現況從109年到113年公務員離職的人數大量的流失大概總共累積了一萬兩千五百零三人那當然很多的原因是 有的人說他是請辭的最大原因當然都是個人因素啦"},{"start":10395.28,"end":10423.437,"text":"那其中有高達43%的人坦言是因為另有他就這是不是代表政府所提供的這個待遇跟職涯全景已經全面落後於民間企業呢這個部分老師我們部裡面的一個統計表因為原因太大類的沒有很細的一個規範我沒有辦法回答但是我從另外一個角度跟委員報告另有他就有可能他就重新再考試因為我剛剛有報告說我們有大概有兩成的人又重新考回來"},{"start":10424.358,"end":10442.325,"text":"換別的單位就對了所以這個原因我們沒有太細究我覺得要去探究他真正離職的原因你才能夠根本的解決我們也嘗試想要提供一個新的調查表同仁如果真的在辭職的時候我們請他能夠回答他為什麼辭職我們有嘗試再做新的一個調查表"},{"start":10447.927,"end":10460.679,"text":"然後另外就是再請教一下就是請我們的這個公務體系的初等考試五等的公務員其實起薪扣完公保退府實領薪水跟其實跟基本公司其實差不多那過去長輩都說工職是鐵飯碗嘛"},{"start":10463.201,"end":10473.753,"text":"現在已經好像有點生鏽所以我們可以看一下在這個台灣公務員的人事費的支出在OECD國家的排行平均是9% 我們是5.9%所以呢 其實我們是在末段班"},{"start":10477.898,"end":10494.33,"text":"而且過去十年來這個比例也下滑了1.8%那部長請問一下這反映的是台灣政府對於人才投資呢令於投資過於吝嗇還是說這就是一種變相的國家級的血汗呢"},{"start":10495.064,"end":10523.584,"text":"我跟委員報告比較各國的人事費用這個是很危險的一件事情佔比因為每一個國家的GDP或者什麼都不一樣我覺得應該是自己的國家長期來看那我們過去十年來比例也下滑了1.8%那跟我們分母有關因為人事費佔總之是有比例會跟我們分母多少有關我覺得比較好的指標是我們的平均年所得到底有沒有變化"},{"start":10524.664,"end":10545.516,"text":"那這個部分確實我們平均年所得實質上公務體系的平均年所得都在增加中因為我們不斷調薪那也許是說這個部分就某些特定領域的人還比不上民間企業我想現在目前應該就是這樣的一個狀況但是並不是全面性啦我知道我知道像比如說像剛剛講一些工程師他可能在別的地方還有這個他的"},{"start":10546.036,"end":10568.548,"text":"他的證照還可以加急所以針對這個部分我覺得應該是要通盤的來考慮真正的讓有能力的人願意進入到國家體系這個新世代的部分在權責上是有行政院主管是好 那再麻煩各位我們針對公務人員我們讓他們有更多的尊嚴跟願意進來我們國家服務當然 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員"},{"start":10574.81,"end":10578.052,"text":"然後接下來我們就請陳冠廷委員發言你好 我們請部長請問請哪位部長 施部長嗎請施部長 請施部長"},{"start":10604.039,"end":10631.265,"text":"各位好你好部長好部長我想請教一個我們過去他反應過但是至今我們地方還沒有這個改善的問題那這是跟建築法第34條規定就是鄉鎮共所合八的這個建築之道的審查人員那這些人員的話必須要有三年以上的工程經驗然後要有大專建築相關科系畢業或者高考以上的這個及格"},{"start":10632.085,"end":10648.859,"text":"那現在根據我們嘉義縣的一些相公所的這些反應他說這個建築工程的這種缺額從98年到現在已經將近17年都徵不到合格的人員那這個問題當然也不是現在才出來過去地方就已經喊了很多年"},{"start":10649.619,"end":10678.598,"text":"那如果說這個證照審查這種業務長期用不具備法定資格的同仁代理那這樣最近嘉義的風災也是不斷嘛去年前年都有那災害附近都有供期壓力所以能力短缺它不僅是行政效率的問題跟民眾的安全也有關係我想請教類似這種長期遭不滿的這種特殊內科過去有沒有一些系統性的檢討因為已經整整我們這樣聽到的話是17年都沒有找到合格人員"},{"start":10679.929,"end":10707.349,"text":"院委員報告我們現在當然都在focus在土木工程那其實建築工程是另外一個我可以講說另外一個長期的議題那overall來講這整個議題當然是應該是行政院在負責並不是考試院在負責不過考試院這邊確實有在處理一些植物列等的一個調整那我知道行政院那邊最近有對土木工程因為土木工程的部分是涉及到他必須先要"},{"start":10708.129,"end":10724.267,"text":"工程機關那您剛剛講的合發鎮造這個東西鄉鎮市公所那個是不是叫建建築工程機關細節我不懂只要是只要是在工程機關裡面我們對土木工程的同仁事實上是有薪資有提高的我們的專業佳績有提高他有獎金"},{"start":10724.787,"end":10748.76,"text":"那建築工程是不是完全特別在鄉鎮市公所是完全適用這一套我不夠精準的了解不過我想這一部分呢還是總署應該他們會有更精準的一個了解了解其實這個少此話講大家都知道是大環境的問題那我們知道說貴府有推動這個檢科改革跟這個國考宣導這些"},{"start":10750.185,"end":10759.727,"text":"那當然是相公正公說所他這個審查人力的問題跟一般的行政科不一樣那不是考科太多沒人想考那可能是"},{"start":10760.41,"end":10785.261,"text":"要符合這一些規章的人確實就沒有這麼多啦那當然市場上面的要求沒有那麼多但是它的機會更多所以這個不管是行政院考選部那我們可能都要思考一下像這樣子怎麼樣綜合起來來去想說把沒有辦法一直都沒有辦法補足的東西把它補足因為之前也問行政院然後行政院的回答我們也沒有辦法很"},{"start":10786.081,"end":10795.308,"text":"很理解啦 就是問題還是存在那邊啦所以部長你自己的這個經驗來看的話有什麼其他可以去調整這種流財的困境"},{"start":10797.981,"end":10823.051,"text":"我覺得啦應該是這樣講我們特別很多工程類的部分因為民間市場的活絡政府確實碰到一個特別是最近這幾年景氣性的部分政府因為我們的制度會比較固定僵化就比較難隨時之後就調整這確實是不利的條件我們能做的可能是在薪資這個部分有獎金這個部分可不可以再多做一點"},{"start":10824.371,"end":10852.322,"text":"那至於願不願意進來那真的是屬於個人的一個工作職場的一個選擇我想有些專業證照的同仁其實我們已經放了我們也可以由專業證照直接轉換成公務人員那是誘因也在那裡但是可能有些具有專業證照的同仁他們覺得他職涯的選擇還是願意選擇到那個民間部門不到政府部門所以這個真的是需要更多的一個討論跟這個努力啦"},{"start":10852.936,"end":10878.646,"text":"部長你說有什麼樣的獎金上面的機制工程獎金裡面有留任獎金還有工程獎金跟留任獎金新實施的就是留任獎金那有沒有偏遠地區加級這個有其實在我們第一加級裡面有一個叫做合理化方案合理化方案就授權給地方政府本身可以參考原來的第一加級裡面在一個規範裡面自己再去做評估"},{"start":10879.506,"end":10895.562,"text":"哪一個地方你可以怎麼樣實施然後報行政院核定就可以這是新的實施的制度那我知道現在用這個制度裡面主要是屏東還有東部嘉義縣好像是後來有新增加一個是在大"},{"start":10897.11,"end":10911.029,"text":"大埔吧大埔鄉就是在鎮魂水庫那一個部分就是說那是一個機制啦只是說要不要有一些機制來處理這個議題我覺得未來這個還是有一些空間譬如說我們老師"},{"start":10912.17,"end":10939.871,"text":"就有他有一個留任獎金那這部分細節的部分我覺得未來可以再跟部長說部長你覺得這個可能大補相這個機制是也可以去把它運用到其他地方政府怎麼樣去運用這個合理化我們叫合理化的這個第一佳績的這個方案合理化第一佳績方案好我們再來檢討一下這個事情就是跟總書來做業務報告的時候也許您可以多請教我們再來繼續下去好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":10945.148,"end":10948.25,"text":"好 謝謝 那麼接下來我們有請蔡議員與委員發言謝謝主席那我們是有請全序部部長 司部長跟考試院留秘書長請部長跟秘書長好委員長"},{"start":10971.192,"end":10986.519,"text":"部長跟秘書長早這個考試院在2025年那因為大家都在反映這一個地方政府也就是二級政府跟中央政府之間那植物類等的一個落差那造成說地方是留不住人才"},{"start":10987.932,"end":11009.467,"text":"以嘉義為例我們地方政府的人才他同樣的一個工作我可以選擇我在阿館處我去我去林務署或者是我去交通部的這一些其他的一些部署單位同樣的工作但是職務列等是有落差的所以交通部事實上在去年2025年10月的時候通過地方機關職務的調整案那真的調整案也是想要平衡"},{"start":11015.325,"end":11035.095,"text":"中央跟地方的這個植物列等的差別而且希望可以在六都跟縣市他們所屬的這個機關調高非主管值的這個公務員的植物列等從7到8可以提升到8到9那如果是主管值的那甚至"},{"start":11036.435,"end":11057.223,"text":"上限如果是7的話可以把它調整成7到8那這個政策在2月1號已經上路了那我想要請教看秘書長還是部長可以回應一下說那目前上路一個多月後那你們掌握的狀況是怎樣呢這個制度已經通案下去就等於是各個縣市政府都可以這樣做"},{"start":11058.444,"end":11075.519,"text":"要等於是要提出那個修編那個編制表的一個東西送來我們這邊我們就很快就要合下去那細節上說到底有沒有送上來這個實務上的操作可能會後如果再跟委員報告所以縣市政府再分別送上來對這需要有這樣的程度但是部長我之前也有跟您反應過嘛那事實上我們也有聽到很多基層公務員的聲音就是說"},{"start":11079.282,"end":11104.138,"text":"我們雖然這樣有一個調高但是我們知道你們現在公務員他如果要進入這一個他如果從五到七他要進入到了這個八值等他必須要有一個條件也就是說在公務人員任用法第十七條第七項他必須要限縮他必須要碩士以上的學位那所以咧如果他現在就已經是主管然後他要進到八的話"},{"start":11104.758,"end":11122.436,"text":"他忽然間會卡到說我因為我還要先去取得學位然後我才能我才能繼續來當這個主管可是我們知道他要取得學位又有時間上的壓力表示說他會有一個落空窗期這個空窗期讓他變成說他本來是主管他抓不到這個主管啦"},{"start":11124.318,"end":11129.5,"text":"這件事情是不會發生 因為他如果現在 我們有一個機制他如果現在沒有符合這個資格 還是繼續留用啦目前暫時先用這種方式來處理 所以不會有這個問題啦那剩下就是說 這樣規定喔 覺得有合理啦那就是涉及修法 要不要討論修法的一個問題我也有準備要提案修法 我是覺得可以檢討這個啦"},{"start":11151.649,"end":11168.707,"text":"你現在每隔一個碩士以上的一個學位事實上我覺得很多公務員他服務到了一定的年限比如說五年上去啦甚至服務到了七年他的經驗是豐富的喔他未必說他要回過頭說要碩士學位嘛這個我感覺上都有一點在綁住說"},{"start":11170.789,"end":11180.998,"text":"他的能力就一定要跟他的學位去把他綁在一起這件事我覺得是可以解答我可以公開的說我並不贊成用學歷來做這個事情我們看的是"},{"start":11182.469,"end":11211.189,"text":"會做事沒有啦平常嘛有一款的工作考試來表現所以這些有經驗的人一定要給一個學歷才能上去學歷並不代表他現場上的工作一定做得好不過當初立法一定有他的是啦 恭喜有他的想法嘛所以現在我覺得這可以檢討一下也剛好搭配我們剛好把植物劣等也做一個調整我覺得可以檢討啦好 不然部長還有一個問題啦就是我們說植物劣等的時候事實上它就會呈現出一個很大的問題就是說"},{"start":11212.403,"end":11230.062,"text":"在中央在中央這個層級跟地方的層級落差還是存在的那既然有這樣的一個落差存在我甚至我都覺得說尤其你要想說我們加以關我們又更麻煩如果你說六都它就是中央政府跟二級政府我們又有三級政府"},{"start":11230.743,"end":11243.417,"text":"那三級政府也有三級政府他的課長啊 他的公所的主祕啊他們也應該要有一定的一個成績 不然我們公所也有在說課長沒人要去做秘書啦我課長啊 秘書七定啊 課長啊 有課長 欸 規定我忘記了秘書被定啦"},{"start":11251.186,"end":11270.98,"text":"秘書被訂啦,課訂可以搞定嘛,對不對課訂七到八啦七到八啦,所以就沒人要去做秘書啦,因為秘書要觀看嘛我就課訂我做好好好啦,因為我一樣都八而已啦,一樣是八上限啦對,那如果說你要調整公所的上限,把它上去說那是不是秘書要稍微久,也可以再"},{"start":11271.761,"end":11300.312,"text":"高一點的話 哇 又卡到說那跟縣政府之間又有漢格的存在這樣起來我們沒人要來管政府啊所以大家都要在基層 我沒人要管政府又有這個漢格的存在所以這個問題咧我都主張說現在以14級的植物劣等來說事實上含性不夠剛有可能我們就來研議一套而且大家也有講到公務員的薪資是台灣可以來重新檢討的那有沒有可能發展到15級的植物劣等咧"},{"start":11301.312,"end":11324.379,"text":"我跟委員報告 行家 你剛才說的都是我們在不斷這個我們就經常跟這個事情 因為我們這裡有三級政府嘛三級政府有公所的公務員會跟縣府的公務員會卡住然後縣府的公務員又跟中央的又卡住啊一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層"},{"start":11328.341,"end":11342.3,"text":"這個到辦公室聊天的時候也談到這個事情那我覺得這是一個議題可以好好來想想說好我拿出來給部長你們講一下再來第一基層的公務員他們都覺得打擊他們信心最大的就是在用"},{"start":11343.411,"end":11356.925,"text":"這個烤雞齁那當時在90年的時候那因為有一個當年全序部的一個簽函齁他是取代法制化然後他就直接把他說喔這個夾等的把他限制在75%"},{"start":11358.847,"end":11365.152,"text":"假凍75%這件事 我譬如我們今年我們嘉義我們台灣登規辦得這麼好辦得這麼好 全國都餓了 而且創造這麼多的山積1360萬的旅客來 而且還創造300多億的交通產值這教育我做主管 我們文官局全部都要打架了"},{"start":11383.496,"end":11402.257,"text":"所以全部就 啊就表現真的好欸啊挖土 也是一樣的拔一隻喔 一樣拔一隻所以這個會影響到基層公務員的戰鬥力跟他們的那個啊士氣啊我覺得這個東西挖土來 大家來檢討一下有啦 挖土剛好在今天的場合裡面已經講過很多次就是說我們確實呢已經提"},{"start":11403.177,"end":11412.645,"text":"想好一個新的制度會把大家比較過去長期的一些狀況做一個徹底的一個討論跟解決可能順利的話應該會這個會期以這個會期的目標上來立法院然後我們重新修改我會處理這個事情"},{"start":11420.712,"end":11440.712,"text":"因為我看這次我們嘉義縣政府辦台灣燈會,你看我們的衛生局表現那麼好,整個台灣燈會的現場這麼清晰,那是投入很多志工,然後大家很多公務員,大家都是努力以赴啊,像這個我覺得,哇,你說要分公4分之3,我就是假,4分之1,沒有,那4分之1要怎麼算,那很難過的啦,"},{"start":11442.594,"end":11456.98,"text":"我知道,主管也辛苦啦主管也辛苦,但是對那個公務員的士氣也不好啦就真的今年這樣就表現一到贊耶得不到應該要有的榮耀我是覺得這可以檢討一下好不好好,謝謝好,謝謝委員好,謝謝蔡委員那接下來我們有請吳麗華委員發言"},{"start":11474.477,"end":11474.937,"text":"三位首長好"},{"start":11499.161,"end":11514.146,"text":"我常常講一旦原住民自治成為一個目標那麼原住民的人才培育就相對非常的重要所以在教育部那邊其實我也常常提"},{"start":11515.106,"end":11535.844,"text":"我們稍早先前有的原專班我一直呼籲不要去亂開那果然不錯像現在面臨少子化之後我們發現很多的原專班都要關而且呢也沒有真的去培育出我們所需要原住民自治的各類人才"},{"start":11536.565,"end":11554.379,"text":"那我這邊就是希望說教育部他應該要有一個上位的思考要有一個架構要知道我們到底要培育出什麼樣的人才出來然後去結合大專院校他們好的科系來做培育那我今天來到這裡其實也是關心我們的公務人員"},{"start":11557.401,"end":11573.974,"text":"因為我們現在列冊的文官有6779人如果對應全國的公務員人數我們看到那個比例是1.8%那這個1.8%到底多還是不多我們去看一下原住民目前是來到62.9萬人對照全國的2328萬人目前原住民的比例已經來到2.7%"},{"start":11584.562,"end":11598.859,"text":"所以呢公務員佔比1.8到原住民人口比例2.7其實是有一個蠻大的空間要努力那如果說我們再細看一下我們發現我們原住民的這些文官啊"},{"start":11599.54,"end":11620.667,"text":"大多幾乎40%是落在去當警察那其他的部分有委任的 兼任的 還有檢任的那我們看一下那個比例我們看到 兼任呢他在所有原住民的比例當中雖然是35%可是他卻是全國兼任公務員的1.7%跟原住民的2.7%也有落差那如果談到檢任 那更慘"},{"start":11628.57,"end":11647.118,"text":"因為呢就佔全國檢任公務員的佔比是0.6%連1%都不到那這種狀況其實在警察系統也是一樣雖然原住民有很多人投入去當警察可是我們看一下警監全國的警察就一個"},{"start":11647.998,"end":11663.463,"text":"也就是說三線的就那麼一個所以這個是一個非常失衡的狀態那過去呢我也在內政部警政署那邊我也常常關心所以呢我們也希望園民會那邊多做努力例如給他們做補習那個特考讓他們能夠正式的成為警察那學校端呢我們也希望警專警大那個部分能夠去提高那個比例但是我很高興雖然警專警大"},{"start":11677.188,"end":11690.415,"text":"我們的比例呢從我來到立法院那時候是1.5%現在已經到3.5%可是我很高興真正也靠自己努力考進去的景專114年已經來到7.09% 7.1%所以我覺得原住民我們其實都很努力可是我們回頭看"},{"start":11699.079,"end":11717.787,"text":"原住民的這個公務人員以三等特考來講應該這是老生常談你們也都很了解你看我們的土木工程光是看土木工程這是多麼重要的公務人力因為很多原住民的相公所有時候連一個祭祀都沒有"},{"start":11718.487,"end":11735.441,"text":"根本就沒有這樣的鄉公所非常多可是你看喔那種災後重建特別預算的經費進來那是幾億幾十億的進來可是鄉公所他根本沒有能力去做這一些工程所以像土木工程三點特考"},{"start":11736.341,"end":11758.118,"text":"開缺35人已經算很少了 可是你看報名的40人結果倒考的16人 最後錄取3個人我相信你們都比我更清楚所以我們很希望說在這個部分 既然我剛剛講的我們有沒有可能針對公務人力的部分去結合教育部 園民會一起來努力"},{"start":11758.758,"end":11782.157,"text":"像我知道的是中興大學它的農土木都很強我們也有請教育部是不是能夠支持他們而他們也很樂意用他們最好的師資最好的科系能夠來協助培育我們原住民各類的自治人才那這個部分目前已經有起色那我今天之所以來是因為之前"},{"start":11783.339,"end":11805.294,"text":"考試委員一萬納威或者是我們考選部劉部長還有包括秘書長您或者市部長其實你們也都很有心要來幫忙這一塊所以在我們援助民族教育發展計畫的中長城115到119現在已經有納入特別是今天的夜報"},{"start":11806.235,"end":11828.977,"text":"我也有看到就是考選部有在第四頁特別提到你們已經主動的進入那關於我們很關心的就是盤點大學數科的這些重點學校然後報考率最多的那些大專校院或者是公部門寒暑假的公務見習甚至是現在大專"},{"start":11829.878,"end":11842.231,"text":"全部的大專院校都有原資中心那能不能夠去提升他的一個角色等等那今天因為我有看到夜報所以我特別是不是請我們的部長能夠就這個規劃能夠說出來讓我們了解"},{"start":11847.262,"end":11867.633,"text":"謝謝委員跟委員報告最主要是說我們也非常感謝原民會跟教育部跟考選部我們一起針對未來五年的原住民主教育發展計畫然後特別有一個就是推動公務人才培育的項目目前具體的進度是我們三個部會已經成立了正式的"},{"start":11868.213,"end":11883.499,"text":"次長級的工作小組在推動再往下推動重要的工作項目那當然針對已經在上面列出的那主要是教育部要負責盡量多一點人才培育那考選部要來更強化這些包含宣導還有像剛剛"},{"start":11885.154,"end":11903.985,"text":"委員所提到的包含去對齊這個課程地圖還有跟原治中心的合作那園民會他會更強化在輔導的這一塊那至於說剛剛委員提出了很多的點也都大概會納入這個工作小組來討論那我們希望能夠盡快會有一些成果出來"},{"start":11904.656,"end":11933.236,"text":"好 我特別就是要跟你們說一聲感謝也希望你們要更加努力因為原住民自治人才的培育始終對原住民族整個發展來講是最重要的一件事情所以呢今天考選部 考試院 我們全序部一同努力的空間很多希望能夠跟教育部 園民會一起結合來做甚至是包括我舉一個簡單的例子跟市部長說"},{"start":11934.457,"end":11954.588,"text":"我們原鄉最高秘書就八值等你知道嗎可是到了區六都我們的區以茂林區來講區公所它的秘書比照原鄉八值等喔可是人家其他六都的區的秘書是九值等喔然後呢 園民會為什麼留不住人"},{"start":11955.248,"end":11984.648,"text":"沒有太多高的職等所以乾脆呢大家待一待知道自己的生涯規劃已經無所寄望了就乾脆早一點回原鄉可是到了原鄉最高就只能爬到那樣子所以呢我覺得這個限制了很多人才願意投入公務的考試這也是希望我們全序部來幫忙那在這邊特別謝謝考試院所帶領的團隊那希望在未來原住民公務人才的培育需要你們更多加把勁"},{"start":11986.269,"end":12008.681,"text":"好 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳立華委員那麼我就先處理會議時間那上午會議的時間繼續進行到所有的登記發言委員詢答結束為止好 那接下來我們就接下來是鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在那接下來我們請葉元之委員"},{"start":12021.168,"end":12049.097,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請秘書長跟考選部 那退府跟那個 市部長 市部長秘書長還有 劉部長也有嘛劉部長對 考選部的劉部長 可以可以好 委員長委員長早 委員長確認一下我們現在如果 退休的公務人員他如果到有公費資助的機關去任職的話他的薪資是有一個最低工資的上限對吧"},{"start":12050.737,"end":12078.229,"text":"這規定是從什麼時候開始的應該是我們在修改那個退伏法的時候就已經其實是在年金改革之前就已經是這樣那當時年金改革之前因為這些退休的公務人員可能政府認為說他們的退休金領的比較多那如果到又到另外一個機關任職的話如果沒有一個上限的話會有領雙薪的感覺所以有訂這個上限但是年改好像沒有把這個修掉"},{"start":12078.829,"end":12088.821,"text":"因為年改之後他們的退休金被砍了很多現在已經不是領的跟當初講的一樣那為什麼還要有這個上限有沒有曾經考慮過要把這個上限做一個調整"},{"start":12091.564,"end":12117.441,"text":"年改之前是用這個工資嘛現在也是啊就是這個部分因為它有立法當初的一個原意立法原意 我知道 可是現在已經不一樣了嘛現在年改了嘛所以我覺得第一個 因為年改之後他們退休金也變少了而且他現在是退休到另外一個地方上班是憑自己的勞力啊他不是憑空而來的錢啊"},{"start":12118.422,"end":12129.71,"text":"所以你給他一個天花板讓他不能賺更多我覺得不合理啦我希望考試院可以針對這個地方來研議一下好不好那我今天會這邊提出來其實也是因為在教育現場遇到一個問題啦"},{"start":12131.179,"end":12154.414,"text":"什麼問題呢因為這個教師的終點費很久沒有調了嘛那好不容易前一段時間教育部終於幫教師調了終點費那當然不夠但是總算跨出第一步可是因為現在缺老師缺得非常嚴重那很嚴重的情況之下有很多退休老師他願意回到學校裡面來當終點老師但你忽然間終點費提高之後他能夠帶的課就少了"},{"start":12155.054,"end":12174.826,"text":"一下就達到上限了所以也造成那個教育現場的問題所以基於兩個理由啦我知道那個我看起來那個司務長好像第一次聽到有人提這個提這個問題有點錯愕甚至剛剛的資訊還不對啊還跟我講說說現在不是領最低工資現在就是領最低工資應該是我們有內部在討論這個議題有在討論喔"},{"start":12178.229,"end":12193.786,"text":"我沒有問你就沒有內部就沒討論我一問就內部有討論沒有關係沒有關係沒有關係這不是這什麼啊特別公事這就很合理啊第一個他已經年改了嘛退會金已經被砍啊所以你給他第二個他這是自己去上班啊又不是憑空給他錢第三個我剛剛講說"},{"start":12195.368,"end":12223.435,"text":"這個缺老師嘛退休老師進來之後他能夠上的課變少因為他一下就到上限啊而且整個勞動市場現在都缺缺人嘛所以你放寬這個如果退休公務人員去別的地方上班的工資的上限其實也可以解決一部分的人力的就業市場人力的問題所以我覺得這個事情是應該做的好不好那個部長請問一下大概什麼時候秘書長你覺得你認為這是不是應該一個改革的方向"},{"start":12225.267,"end":12251.704,"text":"這個聽起來是有討論空間所以全劇部也在討論當中不要每次我們在講什麼就說在討論當中我沒有講你們就沒有討論當中我們講了就討論當中好像一副都是我早就逼你先想到了就是要來這邊爭這個口舌之爭沒關係那你跟我講你什麼時候你們討論到什麼時候是要討論到討論到牛年馬月還是大月在冬季什麼時候"},{"start":12252.665,"end":12265.878,"text":"一個月可不可以一個月把方案提出來好不好包委員 這個真的是我們不需要證明不是 這個有什麼提高他的之前 我跟你講之前公務人員到大學去教書也是有上限後來也是 後來有試限嘛"},{"start":12268.32,"end":12287.86,"text":"那現在公務人員到大學教書這個就放寬了嘛其實這個不是什麼了不起的問題啦好像講什麼大工程一樣沒有那麼大的工程啦要不要放寬而已你對於教育現場缺工或者是其他缺工或者是公務人員退休之後他退休金減少讓他多賺一點錢你願不願意而已嘛這個哪有什麼好工程的"},{"start":12289.079,"end":12318.483,"text":"公務人員不願意做事情啦會有一百個理由啦願意做也可以有一千零一個理由啦就看你願不願意做嘛秘書長你應該是勇於認識的人啦好不好可以喔一個月一個月把報告好不好主席可以嗎請一個月把這個研究的報告給本席啦好不好不要做不要做這個主席才是請秘書長這裡喔就是一個月內然後將報告提供給業員之委員還有我們司法委員會的委員們好不好好的"},{"start":12318.843,"end":12339.372,"text":"好 我再前面問一個問題因為前幾天就是有公務人員針對就是烤雞烤雞 烤雞啦 甲等乙等的比例提出在網路上面有提出他的意見然後我後來看到人事總署有回應他說看到了網友的呼籲了 所以呢"},{"start":12340.325,"end":12368.602,"text":"今年的夾燈比例一定不會低於前一年我覺得這很奇怪真的是喊的喔今天到底要打假還是假倚你要根據他的表現嘛所以很多工人為什麼會不爽是因為我明明表現很好啊可是因為我比較菜啊所以我主管就說不然你今年先扛一下過兩年再輪別人所以才會有人呼籲說要把這比例取消啊結果人事總署的回應居然是說沒關係啦我看到你的呼籲了啦不然今年就比去年高一點"},{"start":12369.142,"end":12394.407,"text":"是在菜市場喊價喔所以我幫你講一句話啦因為考試法是考試院權責所以人總可能不方便在這個市場這個民主黨其實我也特別去看了其實這個東西跟什麼考試法也沒什麼關係啦這個是考試院跟人總他的命令嘛他要求公家機關說你要按照比例這比例還調整過耶在最早的時候是九成最早是九成啦"},{"start":12395.007,"end":12415.57,"text":"不是這樣有的很早以前你可以去問一下以前公務人員假等的比例最早有三分之一後來有三分之一以上到二分之一為原則後來就有不設限所以實務上變到九成以上就九成嘛又七成五嘛這樣太大鍋飯了所以又退回來五十為原則七十五為上限"},{"start":12416.03,"end":12438.499,"text":"但是這個比例所以這個第一個嘛你看烤雞到底要不要打甲打乙這跟油價一樣浮動啦是用喊的啦不是看你表現好不好啦這本來就是一個很問題那現在如果願意改革那我看到人總的回應居然是說沒關係今年比去年多這還是用喊的啊理論上就是要把這個比例把它取消嘛"},{"start":12440.439,"end":12463.064,"text":"這個不是考機法 這個不是考機法這個母法裡面沒有規定說比例要多少對 母法沒有規定其實考試院跟人種願意做 一紙命令馬上就改了你一紙命令馬上就改了沒有法源啊 母法沒有這件事情我覺得每次都要講說這是法 這是法 然後好像都沒修法沒有 你現在要做 你明天就可以改了"},{"start":12463.789,"end":12486.701,"text":"沒有錯啦你願不願意做?林組長你願不願意做?我講我要做什麼好因為剛剛有跟好幾位委員報告我就要重申就是說我們現在已經進行到我們院內院部有溝通那全區部現在就是即將開始跟機關做意見徵詢如果順利的話其實我聽今天很多委員的意見我認為這件事不會應該也有相當的共識朝著這個方向"},{"start":12487.745,"end":12513.295,"text":"前進部下個月 最快下個月可以把法案送到院裡面來那我的 我們的期望是我這個會期把法案 把考慮法的修法不是只有比例的那個上限的問題全盤的修正 我們送到立法院來那如果 因為立法院可以像去年這樣支持我們去修保障法的這樣的一個處理的話那加速來審議我們希望今年可以完成這整個工程"},{"start":12513.635,"end":12539.268,"text":"那所以我這邊一定會盡量讀出全序部盡快還有院裡面我們盡快把法案送到立法院來到時候再請召委跟各委員來質詢如果大家都支持沒有問題啦但是我覺得還是要切開來講第一個烤雞法當然大家盡快通過但是取消這個比例加增比例的你立刻就可以做了我覺得不要推給烤雞法你立刻就可以做了如果烤雞法修正完就沒有這個問題但是如果說如果沒有的話切開來處理因為你那個"},{"start":12541.409,"end":12551.944,"text":"假等這個你忙就可以做了啦真的不要推考這兩回事啦這兩回事啦希望你可以朝剛講的方向啦謝謝謝謝委員指教"},{"start":12556.121,"end":12572.176,"text":"好 謝謝葉委員之委員好 那麼所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢時所要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者就請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":12573.537,"end":12594.333,"text":"蔡奇昌委員、楊瓊瑛委員、林倩琪委員、吳宗憲委員所提的書面質詢就列入記錄刊登公報,並且請相關機關以書面答覆。好的,那麼本次會議議程所列的事項都已經處理完畢,那我們今天的會議就到此結束,現在散會,謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"167681","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167681","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e5903ff12b275a03aa909e6e2233bc9ef8041fe0890f16f5428c13a165974515a3f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:18:09 - 09:20:56","影片長度":"00:02:47","會議時間":"2026-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一)委員何欣純等17人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員王美惠等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員劉建國等16人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員馬文君等20人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員陳俊宇等29人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n三、審查\n(一)\t委員楊瓊瓔等36人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t委員王美惠等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t委員范雲等18人擬具「國民年金法第十五條、第五十條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t委員林倩綺等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t委員張智倫等16人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t委員許宇甄等17人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t委員蘇清泉等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t委員李坤城等20人擬具「國民年金法第十五條、第三十一條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t委員張嘉郡等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t委員林思銘等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)\t委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民年金法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十四)\t委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)\t委員賴士葆等28人擬具「國民年金法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六)\t委員盧縣一等17人擬具「國民年金法第三十一條、第五十三條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十七)\t委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】\n【第三(十)至(十二)案，如經復議則不予審查、第三(十三)至(十七)案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【3月18日及3月19日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-03-19","start_time":"2026-03-19T09:18:09+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-19T09:20:56+08:00","duration":167,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.8572187499999995,"end":81.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.56659375000001,"end":83.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.13596875,"end":148.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.26096875000002,"end":151.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.63596875000002,"end":155.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.51721875,"end":156.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.59721875,"end":165.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.89534375000002,"end":167.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.70096875000002,"end":168.08909375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.415,"end":31.677,"text":"主席大家好那我的提案呢基本上跟政院版本一樣因為我要先肯定一下就是衛福部還有相關的部會我想國民年金這次的調整意義重大因為我們可以看到就是政府照顧這些就是沒有勞保沒有各種保險的人那對我來講的話我長期關心婦女的議題我知道在國民年金這一塊其實非常多的"},{"start":32.037,"end":41.92,"text":"家庭主婦他基本上是保國民年金那這次我們可以看到我自己的版本就是從4049元調高到5000元那這個大家算一下條幅大概有25%那我覺得這個版本就整體來講的話已經算是最高的調整而且不會讓政府"},{"start":56.806,"end":81.225,"text":"舉債就是過高那所以也希望大家能夠支持我的這個部分的版本那另外我的部分呢也有針對過去不合理的那個配偶連帶責任就是做修正那我想這個部分現代就是配偶大家每一個人都是獨立的人那不管是男性女性就是先生或者是"},{"start":84.267,"end":100.839,"text":"先生的另外一個是太太OK 一下忘記這個稱呼我想大家都是獨立的人不要因為一邊沒有就懲罰另外一邊所以這邊我的部分跟原本一樣我覺得這是一個社會的進步也是一個時代的進步"},{"start":102.02,"end":121.349,"text":"最後大家可以看到就排富的標準的部分那我的部分也是能夠修正稍微放寬那我自己的理念其實一向都是政府的福利不需要過度排富因為過度排富其實會讓腳比較多碎的人那當然我們這個是保險制不太一樣"},{"start":121.829,"end":150.61,"text":"就是會覺得他好像沒有辦法得到相關的社會福利普及是我認為最好所以關於這個國民年金的保險有在排付的部分稍微放寬一點我覺得也能夠做到一個整體照顧的精神因為大家知道在台灣不同的縣市那個所謂的房屋或是土地的計算是不一樣的那可能有人在主產或等等但事實上他的家庭狀況或是老年的部分"},{"start":151.05,"end":164.625,"text":"是有可能需要政府的一起照顧那我想這是一個國民年金共同的一個相互照顧的精神那可以在這部分稍微放寬那也請大家支持我的版本那就先簡單說明到這謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167680","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167680","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59af3e70e0a6f1c8b25fca415873cf37f141fe0890f16f54282a5e3ee0d4b51e7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:15:26 - 09:18:44","影片長度":"00:03:18","會議時間":"2026-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、\t本院委員邱志偉等17人擬具「產業創新條例第十條、第二十三條之一及第二十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員鍾佳濱等20人擬具「產業創新條例第三十九條、第四十六條及第四十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「產業創新條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等21人擬具「產業創新條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「產業創新條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員王鴻薇等23人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第二十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「產業創新條例第六十七條之一及第七十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員林倩綺等20人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「產業創新條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「產業創新條例部分條文修正草案」案。(僅詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-03-19","start_time":"2026-03-19T09:15:26+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-19T09:18:44+08:00","duration":198,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,20-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.35159375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.012843750000002,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.89409375,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.644718750000003,"end":33.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.93284375,"end":34.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.60784375,"end":58.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.04284375,"end":67.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.40846875,"end":70.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.12534375,"end":72.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.04909375,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.59284375,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.89221875,"end":78.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.97221875000001,"end":85.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.32971875000001,"end":88.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.14784375,"end":119.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.86034375000001,"end":121.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.42971875,"end":124.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.26034375,"end":125.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.28971875,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.47471875000002,"end":132.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.88784375,"end":134.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.33471875,"end":141.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.49409375000002,"end":145.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.84784375,"end":152.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.83409375000002,"end":157.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.62659375,"end":161.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.37284375000002,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.62096875,"end":198.48096875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.215,"end":22.299,"text":"主席 在場委員先進 列席臨時委會會長 官員會長 工作夥伴這次產創條例的修正本席等22位委員我們提出的修正案主要是針對39條 46條以及46條之一其中我們看到的第39條其實重點是什麼就是過去我們在產業園區的開發當中當然為了鼓勵地方政府以及產業的需求我們可以"},{"start":34.043,"end":56.441,"text":"就相當的公有地或類似國營事業所持有的土地進行園區的開發這開發過程當中我們也設了一個這個園區使用的土地以產業用地不得少於60%那麼公設用地不得少於20%這是原來法律就有的規範但是它當中規定說社區用地不得超過10%"},{"start":59.276,"end":74.171,"text":"聽好剛剛說的是兩邊是不得少於是60不得少於是20總共就不得少於是80這80都是用在產業工廠以及呢公社但是問到社區用地呢其實我們都知道在園區的開發當中有時候園區內部"},{"start":76.853,"end":102.995,"text":"會有一些居民那這時候我們希望這些居民呢在這個園區劃設的過程當中能夠維持他們既有的生活環境跟情境但是在另外一個意義上來講更重要的就園區的發展過程當中應該要對園區進出的員工提供生活上便利的服務設施這個未必是我們傳統所謂的公共設施比如說大陸污水是公共設施但是又拖活動"},{"start":103.895,"end":124.739,"text":"這算不算公共設施其實這些社區用地它的性質可以同時兼顧原來的園區跟社區雙邊共有的需求試想一個園區劃設之後它的員工可能來自於當地附近的居民他們就是就近上班又可能來自鄰近縣市的居民他們就是通勤"},{"start":125.299,"end":140.357,"text":"但是過往的例子也有可能是屬於境外的譬如說移工這個時候他們需要在園區內部設置住宿的宿舍這種情況之下就會用到了社區用地再考察其他國家我們就考察過法蘭西亞、檳城"},{"start":141.858,"end":165.163,"text":"這些有的園區的性質會使用大量的移工這些移工不可能在這個園區有購置土地因此勢必有廠商來興建宿舍來容納如果不興建宿舍來容納他們勢必在社區裡面去尋找而社區裡面如果是有大量的外地的移工過去在我們的社區例子裡面就會有形成生活習慣上的摩擦"},{"start":165.603,"end":193.459,"text":"作息不同農民很早就睡了但是移工可能三班制譬如說移工大量使用大量的機車但是在社區裡面可能已經沒有辦法負荷那麼多的個人的交通工具因此我們考量這一點將第39條、46條、46條之一我們做了調整其中10%社區用地的提高不得高於15%至於46條、46條之一我們限定了這些社區用地的使用性質以保障園區的開發"},{"start":194.44,"end":198.055,"text":"可以符合我們園區產業的需求以上說明 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167679","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167679","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e596c7ef7d534a5ebc209e6e2233bc9ef8041fe0890f16f5428231dcb1897cc80d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱慧洳","委員發言時間":"09:14:27 - 09:18:01","影片長度":"00:03:34","會議時間":"2026-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一)委員何欣純等17人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員王美惠等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員劉建國等16人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員馬文君等20人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員陳俊宇等29人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n三、審查\n(一)\t委員楊瓊瓔等36人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t委員王美惠等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t委員范雲等18人擬具「國民年金法第十五條、第五十條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t委員林倩綺等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t委員張智倫等16人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t委員許宇甄等17人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t委員蘇清泉等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t委員李坤城等20人擬具「國民年金法第十五條、第三十一條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t委員張嘉郡等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t委員林思銘等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)\t委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民年金法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十四)\t委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)\t委員賴士葆等28人擬具「國民年金法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六)\t委員盧縣一等17人擬具「國民年金法第三十一條、第五十三條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十七)\t委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】\n【第三(十)至(十二)案，如經復議則不予審查、第三(十三)至(十七)案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【3月18日及3月19日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-03-19","start_time":"2026-03-19T09:14:27+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-19T09:18:01+08:00","duration":214,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.10221875,"end":11.067218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.860343750000002,"end":94.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.71659375,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.55034375000002,"end":215.28846875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.103,"end":10.521,"text":"主席各位委員同仁還有各位政府部門的同仁大家好好那我們台灣民眾黨呢根據"},{"start":11.969,"end":39.657,"text":"三個條文來提出修法的一個提案建議那首先是針對國民年金法第15條第二項的規定那我想憲法保障一個平等原則所謂平等原則就是相同的事情做相同的處理不同的事情做不同的處理如果相同的事情要為差別待遇要有合理正當的理由要有合理關聯性而且不能夠自以為之"},{"start":40.857,"end":58.155,"text":"如果沒有合理正當的理由置義為之的話就會違反憲法第7條的平等原則那國民年金法第15條第二項因為關於保費的繳納規定了夫妻之間彼此互相負一個連帶繳納的責任那這樣的一個"},{"start":61.718,"end":80.122,"text":"規定我們認為是以婚姻關係的有無作為差別待遇的一個理由那這個情況之下我們認為有違反合理正當理由的原則有違反合理關聯性的原則所以我們認為違反平等原則所以我們在這邊建議應該把15條第二項做一個刪除"},{"start":83.723,"end":87.786,"text":"那除此之外國民年金法第50條23項關於保費的繳納夫妻之間彼此連帶的要去繳納這個相關費用的一個連帶責任那如果你要繳納這個保費的話"},{"start":100.814,"end":119.163,"text":"就會被處以3000到1.5萬的罰款那這樣的一個規定其實也是以婚姻關係的有無作為裁罰的基礎事實我們也認為欠缺合理關聯性欠缺合理理由所以我們認為違反平等原則所以也建議把第五十條的二三項來做一個刪除那我想把"},{"start":122.926,"end":136.741,"text":"15條第2項第50條23項刪除也能夠落實4至696號解釋的意旨4至696號解釋的意旨就是禁止以婚姻關係的有無作為承受特別不利益的基礎事實"},{"start":137.722,"end":152.766,"text":"好那接著我們來講國民年金法第54條之一那我想如同剛剛很多委員先進已經提到了國民年金從101年到現在經過了十幾年都沒有與時俱進的修正那這15年當中歷經了通膨物價指數的調整還有多次的調薪其實會讓這些國民年金的領取人他們的實質購買力已經大大的降低所以為了讓國民年金的這個"},{"start":166.75,"end":185.184,"text":"相關金額的給付能夠與時俱進符合這個消費者物價指數通膨調薪等等這些因素我們主張把國民年金的一個調整的實現從4年縮短為2年那這個是參照農民的退休儲金條例那除此之外也參照勞保條例就是根據消費者物價指數來做一個調整如果消費者物價指數的成長率達到"},{"start":195.692,"end":213.065,"text":"5%也是啟動調整的一個機制跟時程那台灣民眾黨根據這三條分別是第15條第二項第50條23項還有第51條規定來提案修法那也希望各位委員同仁能夠予以支持以上說明謝謝謝謝邱輝祿委員"}]}},{"id":"167678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e5951b9eb78e850e4e609e6e2233bc9ef8041fe0890f16f5428231dcb1897cc80d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"09:10:31 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09:14:22","影片長度":"00:03:51","會議時間":"2026-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一)委員何欣純等17人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員王美惠等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員劉建國等16人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員馬文君等20人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員陳俊宇等29人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民年金法第十五條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n三、審查\n(一)\t委員楊瓊瓔等36人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t委員王美惠等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t委員范雲等18人擬具「國民年金法第十五條、第五十條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t委員林倩綺等18人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t委員張智倫等16人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t委員許宇甄等17人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t委員蘇清泉等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t委員李坤城等20人擬具「國民年金法第十五條、第三十一條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t委員張嘉郡等17人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t委員林思銘等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)\t委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民年金法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(十四)\t委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民年金法第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)\t委員賴士葆等28人擬具「國民年金法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六)\t委員盧縣一等17人擬具「國民年金法第三十一條、第五十三條及第五十四條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十七)\t委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民年金法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】\n【第三(十)至(十二)案，如經復議則不予審查、第三(十三)至(十七)案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【3月18日及3月19日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-03-19","start_time":"2026-03-19T09:10:31+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-19T09:14:22+08:00","duration":231,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":192.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.16534375,"end":228.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.75471875000002,"end":232.50096875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.803,"end":21.136,"text":"謝謝盧縣義召委感謝你特別排這個案子那在場的媒體先生女士還有我們的同仁以及我們各部會的這個公務體系的行政同仁們大家早安那本席針對國民年金法的修正草案提出說明"},{"start":22.197,"end":32.088,"text":"國民年金制度自民國97年實施至今是為了保障未就業的民眾的老年基本生活但是隨著近17年國內薪資水平不動產價值與物價情勢的劇烈變遷"},{"start":38.635,"end":50.601,"text":"我想現行的法規已經顯得力不從心必須進行全盤的檢討所以本席此次修正的重點分為下面三個面向因為這段時間以來其實10年前到現在我想貧富差距也從前5%跟後5%也從75倍變到150倍那所以這個是"},{"start":59.466,"end":70.057,"text":"非常急迫的事情所以三大面向第一個面向是強化給付水準落實動態的調整機制那依據主計總處的數據112年的消費者物價指數CPI年增率為2.5%已經連續兩年超過通膨警戒線而且最近我看國際情勢如此這個通膨的壓力也越來越大"},{"start":83.43,"end":110.495,"text":"所以現行每四年調整一次的機制是完全跟不上物價的漲幅導致弱勢族群的實質購買力也嚴重縮水影響到他們的基本生活因此本席提案修正第五四條之一將老年年金給付的基準調升至八千元身障年金保障至一萬兩千元同時也將調整這個頻率希望可以縮短成一年去檢討一次一年一條"},{"start":111.315,"end":128.466,"text":"讓年金給付能夠更及時的反映通膨的壓力也確保社會安全網能夠實質發揮這個救貧的功能那第二因應物價的波動修正排富的門檻現行的制度下許多長者僅因為土地的公告"},{"start":129.066,"end":139.313,"text":"限職調生就莫名其妙的喪失了這個領取的資格那這並非是長者的收入增加而是制度沒有隨著經濟現狀的調整所以因此本席提案修正第31條要參照老農津貼的門檻將所得額提高至60萬"},{"start":149.74,"end":157.77,"text":"那土地房這個房屋的價值門檻提高到1025萬喔並且增訂動態調整機制那我們也不能夠讓這個房價的漲幅變成長者的生存威脅應該確保制度與時俱進守護長者的財產尊嚴第三要廢除這個"},{"start":169.844,"end":176.948,"text":"懲罰婚姻的配偶連帶處罰那現行法的第15條以及第50條規定配偶需負擔連帶繳費的義務且未繳費者會受罰這已經引起社會嚴重的詬病那目前的被保險人未繳費無罰則配偶卻要受罰這不僅是違背了民法夫妻財產分離的原則"},{"start":193.203,"end":207.212,"text":"本質上更形同對於婚姻的處罰和懲罰那本席提案刪除這個配偶強制處罰規定那將制度由強制克罰轉向正向鼓勵那也考量到政府財政負擔的可預測性"},{"start":208.823,"end":227.955,"text":"並預留資訊系統開發時間由行政院另訂實行日期希望本次的修法讓國保制度可以跟上時代也懇請各位委員同仁支持本案讓國民年金真正成為支撐國人老年尊嚴及弱勢族群的堅實後盾謝謝謝謝大家接下來請邱"}]}},{"id":"167684","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167684","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59cc2c36e1fc3dbd9c31a176eedb5d66a341fe0890f16f54285fafcff08c5e5b495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:18:08 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我們請林部長請林部長部長早"},{"start":11.209,"end":40.972,"text":"委員長部長我想我先以這個非洲地區相關友邦的這些國家來先跟部長您做一個討論那之前也曾經請教過部長那這個南非自從從2024年開始打壓我們住處從去年的7月份更直接來發布公告直接要把我們的住處改為辦事處那後續我們也看到政府將原先採取這個晶片出口管制的"},{"start":42.113,"end":56.274,"text":"這個方式來做反制啦齁但是南非政府有請我們請求我們這邊來進行協商那我們也同意暫緩來做這一項的管制那近期包括當地的這個台橋也對這件事情感到非常的憂慮甚至在"},{"start":56.795,"end":82.839,"text":"南非的國會議員也認為雙方關係務實且互利不應該因為短期地緣政治考量而被犧牲而最近的消息來看外交部希望雙方能夠進行實質的協商我想請教部長目前我們雙方協商的進度到底到哪裡能不能保住我們在首都的代表處"},{"start":83.439,"end":99.504,"text":"是 報告委員首先我們駐南非的代表處還是都在原地運作就他們首都Petrolia至於說他們在交涉中有給我們一個版本可以怎麼樣談我們也就時間先前因為他們要召開G20"},{"start":101.044,"end":122.716,"text":"那有延後那現在也還在交涉當中就什麼去談的方式啊也建在談之中所以目前我們實質上在南非的這個代表處還有這個包括在開普登的我們的辦事處啊都還是如常的運作好那這個中國的這個"},{"start":124.583,"end":139.369,"text":"壓力不斷的施壓在另一篇報導當中我們看到南非我們的廖大使也表示在這種壓力與日俱增之下並且當局的局勢不但是造成不穩定感"},{"start":140.129,"end":161.151,"text":"那更帶來挫敗感那我們在南非住處面臨如此困境之下我們還是希望有理念相近的這些友人能夠來協助我們那我想請教部長在這種情況之下我們有沒有爭取到相關有盟國家或是南非國內的相關政要給予我們一定的支持"},{"start":161.491,"end":164.093,"text":"是,報告委員,我們外交處境艱困是越戰越猶,不會有什麼挫敗感。我們捍衛我們國家的主權跟利益,依然還是在世界上立足。"},{"start":177.065,"end":205.36,"text":"那當然也是因為有很多的國際友人的相助比如說包括美日 G7 等等他們也都去幫我們跟南非政府反應希望能夠不要去變更我們其實是台灣跟南非之間是建立在當時曼德拉政府的時候簽署的一個雙邊的這個有關於社畜的協議那都有具體的法律的效力跟依據的"},{"start":206.741,"end":215.884,"text":"另外就是其實現在南非的ANC的政府是聯合政府他們聯合政府其他的政黨也都反對ANC的這種做法"},{"start":216.414,"end":241.468,"text":"那就是因為我想他們的執政黨NC跟他們的外交部做了這些決定其實在國會也沒有得到一定的支持那尤其民間的輿論這個很影響到台灣跟南非關係他們也是表達關切所以我想得到者多助我們也是廣泛的去結合各界的力量"},{"start":242.068,"end":260.578,"text":"那我想南非政府他現在也感受到那這個要幫我們就是說降級然後簽署然後包括改名事實上是他們的就是說單方面的意見我們並不同意而且我們會持續交涉捍衛我們應有的權利"},{"start":263.599,"end":281.87,"text":"那部長我們在非洲另外一個友邦史瓦蒂尼近期因為這個發函邀請我們賴總統能夠去訪問那也受到大家的關注那我們也當然也希望說我們總統可以順利的出訪那相關的這個評論內容也有帶我們這個外交部跟總統府來做一個適當的說明"},{"start":285.751,"end":303.749,"text":"針對中國試圖要透過投資的方式來挖我們的牆角譬如在去年八月份他曾經標下斯瓦地尼的一個水壩計畫有沒有可能會造成什麼樣的影響還是我們在長期經營雙邊關係還有包括"},{"start":306.131,"end":331.543,"text":"我們投資的這個台灣產業創新園區的各項榮邦計畫政策之下其實會更有這個優勢那針對這個部分部長您的看法是 報告委員當然中國善於用這個所謂大型工程去滲透甚至去影響當地的國家的政府"},{"start":331.983,"end":354.5,"text":"那斐克尼大壩呢這個案子是屬於非洲開發銀行的一個融資的一個案子那中國當然去蓋它低價競標那也引進了一些中國的功能也造成了一些問題所以我們密切的關注那至於我們的跟斯瓦爾丁尼的這個我們的合作模式像我們對於戰備儲油槽"},{"start":356.441,"end":372.136,"text":"這樣的一個他們史國最大的一個國家重大工程的建設得到各界的好評這個就是一個很好的對比所以史國跟我們的邦交還是相當的穩固那我們也有一些創新的做法特別是農邦計畫"},{"start":373.197,"end":386.422,"text":"那我在去年四月以總統特使身份去訪問史瓦帝尼那也跟史王就後續的農幫計畫的推動除了我們現在做的很好的醫療外交農業還有這些數位治理我們對於引進產業創造就業是他們當地國最重視的那台灣有很好的經驗所以有關於台灣這個產業創新園區那目前也有相當多企業有興趣這裡面也涉及到他的投資環境"},{"start":402.688,"end":429.45,"text":"相對是比較好除了資安穩定以外他跟美國包括有一些比較最低的關稅18他還是阿哥亞非洲執行長這個機會法案最重要的受惠國所以在非洲一些投資的台商現在也想群聚在史瓦帝尼那其他的國家也希望說加強對史國的投資所以這個也就是我們的經濟外交在發揮一定的一個效果"},{"start":430.191,"end":449.972,"text":"好 謝謝部長另外我們台灣和索馬利蘭在2020年互設代表處以來我們積極地爭取雙方的認同雖然在去年4月份的時候我們曾經因為中國的施壓導致我們護照無法在索馬利蘭進出"},{"start":452.114,"end":472.097,"text":"那索性這個問題在多方的努力之下也獲得解決而去年這個以色列宣布承認索馬利蘭為主權國家那雙方建交成為第一個對這個索馬利蘭地位表態的這個聯合國的會員國那對於東非和中東區域的一個戰略佈局影響"},{"start":473.779,"end":490.241,"text":"這個產生了很大的一個影響那我想多年來這個索馬利蘭推動有關的農業醫療還有資安等多項合作甚至在去年我們七月的時候還協助他們開通了一條台灣大道那接下來如何提升我們雙方事實的關係"},{"start":490.942,"end":514.927,"text":"是 包括委員 確實台灣跟索馬利蘭都是民主國家其實它民主選舉已經有將近30年尤其在最近的總統選舉得到各界的肯定我們也積極在協助那它的制度跟能力建構我們當然除了基礎建設剛剛提到的我想包括道路啦或者是這一些像包括醫療"},{"start":516.147,"end":536.602,"text":"還有這個教育方面我們也積極的協助其實它有在地緣政治上它是鴻海啊可以說這個區域裡面重要的這個航行安全所以我們也在海巡方面有簽訂合作的一個這個協議那另外呢對於他們開採礦產"},{"start":538.263,"end":566.044,"text":"他們也有很多的關鍵礦物我們也有參與評估投資所以剛好現在國際情勢特別是地緣政治的變化美國對於索馬利蘭像我們台灣在那邊的關係他們也都很重視那以色列當然基於雙邊他們的利益他們正式的建交互設大使館我們在那邊的代表處事實上已經就是實質上就是"},{"start":567.224,"end":574.886,"text":"發揮的功能可以說就是大使館的功能所以我們在這個基礎上就台灣跟索馬利蘭雙邊的外交關係進一步的發展正在密切的諮商當中那我們當然也會協調、溝通這些友盟包括美國、以色列等等大家一起能夠來協助索馬利蘭它的一個發展那部長有沒有可能會再提升到建交的可能性"},{"start":595.308,"end":609.626,"text":"我們就是穩健的在推動最近中東在戰爭也是一個很關鍵的時刻所以我們事實上發揮的功能就是其實雙邊是幾乎是四次"},{"start":610.612,"end":630.681,"text":"比有些邦交國都還要更緊密的關係那有關於就是所謂的不管是正式的建交或設大使館那這個當然是秉持雙方面的這個基本的我們講都有在討論但是呢我們也會因應"},{"start":632.692,"end":651.986,"text":"整個國際情勢的變化來做推展好 謝謝部長也期待我們許多這些外交的工作還有我們榮邦的這些課題能夠在我們外交部努力之下來深化與理念相近的這些國家做更密切的一個連結"},{"start":653.007,"end":663.16,"text":"以提升我們跟這些國家能夠有更密切的一個合作關係也讓台灣可以在世界每一個國家認同之下來提升我們的國際地位謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"167683","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167683","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59e7a21842c5fb198c9f861acbcf5e150141fe0890f16f54287dc0fecf33e734415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:15:35 - 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有請劉秘書長請劉秘書長"},{"start":14.324,"end":35.068,"text":"我今天還是想跟您討論公務員的考機問題剛剛秘書長您也提到了在報告中提到然後程序部的施部長也有提到考機的部分現在你們在積極在研擬一些修法我想先請教秘書長秘書長你目前的工作你有負責打考試院同仁的考機嗎"},{"start":38.336,"end":54.871,"text":"考試院首長是院長但是考記的部分我自己有你有在打考記我想請教你你認為打考記是個容易的工作還是不容易的工作對主管來說它也是相當困擾的工作為什麼是困擾呢"},{"start":55.848,"end":70.601,"text":"我想最主要烤雞的等地必須讓同仁信服那我們陳時中現在制度面上面烤雞現在加一等的比例分佈這個設計它有一個歷史的演變但是這個演變其實在衡量上面並不是很合理有它爭議之處"},{"start":72.746,"end":96.389,"text":"秘書長我想請教你 請問一等到底是好還是不好一等應該基本上是說他也是被肯定所以他才會有獎金只是說我們這個甲跟乙的區別讓大家一等的同仁會覺得好像沒有被肯定最主要是因為甲等比一等多那麼多所以一等的同仁當然會覺得好像沒有被肯定不過基本上他都是稱職 合於預期的表現"},{"start":97.53,"end":105.393,"text":"秘書長你當然這樣談說一等您覺得是肯定啦所以才有獎金啊但是我們都說是很像鴨子嘛一等就是好像我得了鴨子的這個烤雞啦所以您認為一等是正面的就是在你們定義上是這樣子"},{"start":114.796,"end":136.676,"text":"定義上是 但是他這個制度大家覺得比較不合理就是說假等 四分之三的人是假等 四分之一的人是已等這個劃分 我們覺得需要檢討所以才會要去推動考據法的修正秘書長您說基本上已等就算是正面了但是最近有一則新聞台中地檢署在上個月被爆出"},{"start":137.918,"end":155.548,"text":"他將判決確定的這個詐欺犯 忘記執行長達五年 忘記執行 這個重大疏失吧 這是重大疏失那監察院被監察院糾正 結果地檢署他對承辦人員祭出的懲處竟然是烤雞打魚的"},{"start":156.768,"end":175.626,"text":"這麼重大的疏失他是烤雞打疑等這件事讓基層公務員在網路上炸鍋一片罵聲這件事的反應跟剛剛秘書長您談的疑等基本上是正面的這麼重大的疏失他也是被打疑等這這麼大的新聞秘書長你認為這基層公務員你知道他們為什麼那麼生氣嗎"},{"start":182.813,"end":195.526,"text":"你說就這個案子還是對啊 全部炸光啊因為這個新聞下面全部都是基層公務員一片罵聲啊他犯了這麼大的錯但是他考積已等嘛跟很多人一樣嘛"},{"start":197.951,"end":217.856,"text":"其實就烤雞法來講 針對表現有重大疏失的同仁其實也有別的處理方式 能夠真正的產生警惕所以我想我可以理解 大家對這個案子絕對會覺得非常的爭議那這個主管其實運用烤雞法民主黨那這個是你們職權所及嗎"},{"start":220.237,"end":236.993,"text":"呃 這個不是我們職權好 但是我就是讓大家了解齁你選我們來看一些數字好嗎齁請你看這個統計資料這是全序部最新的公開資料喔齁那我們都知道一般的行政公務員他分成委任 建任 檢任三個官等齁那我們先看甲等的部分甲等的這個"},{"start":238.234,"end":242.455,"text":"比例你看從這個不同的關等你看減刃是96% 減刃是81% 委刃是71%我們再來看移等我們也是從減刃他只有3.9%"},{"start":253.639,"end":260.085,"text":"建任是18% 委任是將近三成 28.8%那這個統計清楚呈現了我們純粹從這個統計來看官等越高 考積越好秘書長認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":269.79,"end":292.632,"text":"會有這個原因喔我先整體講一下就是說這些抱怨 您剛剛講了 異等同仁 覺得不公平還有大家認為烤雞關等之間的分佈不一致這些問題 意見我們都聽到那我們想要去全盤修正烤雞法其實也就是因為大家有這麼多的反應跟不平那至於以前為什麼會有這個現象"},{"start":296.035,"end":316.78,"text":"我想首長在打烤雞的時候大概也會考慮到每一個人的職責的沉重程度跟他的貢獻所以他就會出現像您講的這個結果但是當然烤雞還是要針對同人就同官等之間的比較這個也很重要不能忽視烤雞法第九條您清楚嘛第九是什麼您知道嗎就是"},{"start":318.52,"end":329.404,"text":"還有明定 因為你談到同官等的考積是比較範圍但實際上有沒有落實 李子密說你大概看到這些數字你心裡就有數那對基層公務員來說 這個形同虛設第九條形同虛設 現實上就是距離機關所長越靠近的"},{"start":336.367,"end":356.324,"text":"這個比較近的檢任官相對最容易拿到假等那基層的相對比較距離比較遠的檢任跟這個鑑認跟委任那那個疑等比率就大幅提升嘛那我想新進的菜鳥基本上就是疑等嘛所以過去這個做法相信對員工的是否是真正公平的這個評價這個很難讓人家取信吧畢竟說你同意嘛你根本覺得有不合理之處吧"},{"start":360.767,"end":377.096,"text":"你同意嗎 因為這個我們看到的結果我們就這個結果來評論好 那現在就是除了甲乙等之外我們來看一下那個兵鼎等我們知道他是用來檢討跟汰除不適任的這個公務員但是也是等於沒作用 無論哪個官等其實他都小於這個"},{"start":378.297,"end":401.953,"text":"百分之一啦所以說或是小於0.1所以說公務員是鐵飯碗但是偶爾就會有生鏽的鐵飯碗嘛那有時候還是因為每個機關都有事還有事一旦生鏽當然就不能夠不易使用嘛那每年不適任的公務員真的不到百分之一嗎我們在講 講成我們當中就是做一個平衡的來討論明師長你認為目前的烤雞制度真的能夠達到這個獎優太烈的一個目的嗎目前"},{"start":408.757,"end":432.065,"text":"真的有需要汰除的呢其實工具也是有的只是說機關文化上敢不敢下手那但是另外一方面我們也不會去否定說認為說公務員裡面一定有幾%是應該每年要汰除的因為過去曾經有這樣的討論那也引起大家很大的抱怨所以就這個部分我想應該是依照實際的狀況如果真的有表現不佳應該要處理的要處理"},{"start":432.925,"end":446.236,"text":"秘書長這幾天有一篇新聞麻煩你看一下存續部有提到要啟動修法那就是公務員這個考積甲等比率你取消上限我先請問秘書長現行的考積法有規定那個甲等比率上限嗎"},{"start":447.279,"end":457.763,"text":"現在的法律沒有規定沒有嘛沒有嘛那事實上沒有規定這個上限喔那你所謂的假等不能夠超過75%只是一個潛規則啊潛規則用這麼久那既然這個75不是不是一直都75不是法律嘛它最早大概是應該是三分之一後來變成二分之一後來變成沒有上限後來又變回50為原則75為上限但是法律沒有這一條嘛"},{"start":472.768,"end":489.005,"text":"那沒有既然是前規則你又怎麼透過修法來改呢因為這個標題寫說公務員這個循序部說公務員考積加成比率的這個取消上限我們會設計簡單講我們看各國的考積制度其實應該是蔣優泰烈中間大多數都是認真"},{"start":490.246,"end":510.336,"text":"符合預期的同仁他應該得到相對的肯定但是我們現在那條線不應該是切在75%這個地方那這個長期演變下來的部分讓大家很困擾所以這一次修法等一下我要稍微了解你這次修法的方向這一次我們會去把那個等地做一個新的設計我想請教一下考積法多久沒有修了"},{"start":511.076,"end":523.342,"text":"這樣停滯多久幾十年 請問是多久我想了解一下像我們去年才修過一小條但是這個制度的部分有多久沒有修了很久了部長 多久20年對不起"},{"start":526.744,"end":542.112,"text":"如果整個制度來講就76年建立的但是後來有修正個別的條文我們講一個法律有一個大的架構它裡面有一些細節細節都不斷在修但是如果是大的架構"},{"start":543.132,"end":561.42,"text":"基本上就是維持76年40年沒有修啦一定沒有辦法我都稱為不只這個領域年久失修啦這個都非常重要包括將來我們司法這個組也會看到的人工生殖法二三十年沒有修所以我想請教這個目前謝謝請回那修法是現在已經完成送立法院或是說你們的進度剛剛是說在進行中嘛那我很重要的一個議題就是說問題就是說有讓基層參與嗎"},{"start":571.385,"end":592.23,"text":"你有讓基層公務員參與嗎剛剛部長在報告的時候他在線上等等這個只是邀請是被動式的參與但是法案公告大家就可以表示意見第二個他會我們會有一個問卷線上的那個問卷有嗎有收到基層公務員的意見表達嗎有嗎現在還沒有正要開始進行那我覺得你們應該主動找這個基層公務員團體來開會討論修法"},{"start":599.165,"end":613.798,"text":"就說基層公務員的團體參與要很實質的加入總不能永遠是上層的反正得到考機都是假等的人在討論怎麼來修法您同意嗎?您接受這個建議嗎?"},{"start":615.328,"end":622.153,"text":"這個全局部一定會廣泛徵詢大家的意見我要提醒這個考機法不能閉門召聚來修法如果沒有廣大基層的意見未來還是行不通或形同虛設我剛剛已經告訴你為什麼形同虛設最後秘書長我想跟您討論這個警消組工會過去有很多警消兄弟因公殉職他們面對的不是只有危險的工作環境還有這個"},{"start":636.786,"end":652.933,"text":"其實不太合理的一個這個勤務制度跟績效制度所以希望能夠組工會來保障自己的權益但是這個部分考試院是反對的喔只願意修這個協會法那我想請問秘書長為什麼你們會反對這個警消組工會我想知道原因"},{"start":655.441,"end":669.737,"text":"警校主任會這個議題有各種意見那考試院會是協會法的主管機關不是公會法的主管機關那已經有協會法了那你擔心什麼考試院擔心什麼呢我們當然從我們的角度因為我們主管協會法我們當然會從檢討協會法來著手所以這就是我們為什麼兩度送出協會法"},{"start":674.962,"end":690.891,"text":"如果你們擔心罷工的問題那你就比照那個教師組工會就好啦你們可以有配套措施在勞資正義處理法當中就明定禁止罷工不就可以了嗎你知道所有醫療院所都有工會耶醫療院所都有了你們怕什麼 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請問"},{"start":127.545,"end":146.827,"text":"包括還這個學者專家要立法院同意那旋轉門條款像建制加嚴等等的那限制用途這邊我們也蠻要先說一個部分因為你們在你們剛才報告當中有提到這個限制的條款當中涉及到說屬於不得投資項目裡面我們其實看到是大家都一直在講到的是"},{"start":147.648,"end":165.744,"text":"對於所以不能作為企業的紓困然後也不能作為說是投資他的主要的營業項目是在中國大陸還有過去三年曾經違反到這些相關規定的這些看法等等的請李主委您回覆一下在這邊回應那個委員就是說我們國發基金從來不幫企業做紓困"},{"start":166.385,"end":177.309,"text":"我們只做投資所以這一點跟那個事實上有很大的一個差異第二個就是說假如說我們規定說只限定不能投資中國的話我覺得從業界那邊反應過來的話其實"},{"start":180.404,"end":185.867,"text":"主要項目 主要項目 同時也在限制限制企業的那一個投資的規定但這個部分來講的話其實並不是那麼適合那麼硬性的規定但我們會在整個審議的過程當中在整個審議過程當中去考量這個部分那就委員提到的那一個"},{"start":197.553,"end":215.528,"text":"選者們條款呢經濟措施這部分我們在大院通過在那個調查委員會之後的話我們其實有採行大概九大的那個進進措施啦所以比如包括說勝選投資標的還有強化審議品質以及優化投資協議書還有修正投資事業管理分類以及增加風險預顯指標那定期檢討轉投資事業營運的狀況那透過董事會與活動會強化投資管理"},{"start":227.097,"end":234.986,"text":"以及爭取設立投後管理專責部門以及精進退場機制這部分我們看到了我想要再問主委喔因為你在用這個報告當中對於人事的部分旋轉門條款您特別提到是用的是就"},{"start":242.154,"end":261.103,"text":"公務人員服務法當中的一些含釋啊你知道含釋的意義是怎麼樣因為要求一致性可是含釋是在整個行政命令規則當中是最低層次的我們如果這次能夠修法可以把他所謂的這旋轉門條讓他不要去跟照跟這樣的一個運作董建市的運作能夠是一個適用的人適合的人權的話那這個就會沒問題因為這部分其實要確定到法規上面的意義啊第一個就是說國發基金"},{"start":266.345,"end":285.521,"text":"也是一個非營業特種基金那我們國內有很多非營業特種基金那假如說只針對國發基金做這樣的一個限制的話其實就整個普遍性以及一致性來講的話其實不是相當於合理啦所以這表示你們全部都應該一起修訂以法為重 這才是重點"},{"start":285.981,"end":308.953,"text":"因為第一個就是說像比如說剛剛委員有提到那個投資審議委員會這邊的話修正的版本要求就是說三分之二初期三分之二的同意但可能委員要去思考一下就是說這麼硬性的要求參與的人數以及同意的比例的話是不是反過來在想說是不是讓一些初期的委員一兩個委員有否決權"},{"start":310.083,"end":325.395,"text":"那這個部分來講的話可能必須要去考慮考慮就是說假如說今天只有一兩位委員反對的話那是不是這個案子就整個就翻盤掉了不管說是不是有七八位委員同意所以這個部分來講的話就整個機制設計這個部分的話我會建議委員就是說不見得就是說把那個修得越來越嚴的話其實是有利於整個案件的一個審查啦"},{"start":336.244,"end":342.409,"text":"也就是說我們在房地跟經濟中間可能要取得一個橫頻的一個角色等一下 那我們就可以到深圳法律審查的時候再說那最後有一個問題要請教的是經濟部市長關於是在這個22條當中有些修法的部分因為跟67之3條嘛它並沒有就是因為沒有公佈因為是現在還沒有公佈吧那沒有實施生效對不對葉市長 何市長"},{"start":363.247,"end":386.362,"text":"還沒還沒是還沒對那你們為什麼跳票了那大家最重要是因為經濟部的這邊涉及到了22條的是涉及到我們國安的這個技術要涉及到所謂經濟不利的條件那這些兩個因素裡面的最重要的是他沒有生效就沒辦法規範尤其是經濟部所提到這個關於我們這樣關鍵的核心技術國家核心關鍵技術呢是在你們提出來的是N-1可是國"},{"start":389.063,"end":412.912,"text":"國科會是說出來的是N-2這樣的條件那請問一下你們再用經濟部的立場來說一下不然維持的是N-1還是N-2請說一下我們政府的立場跟委員報告好了我們這個在現有的那個產量條例裡面針對那個這個審查的機制本來就已經有了那剛委員講到N-1 N-2那個只是針對大陸"},{"start":415.293,"end":430.166,"text":"我們到大陸去投資的話所以我們沒有對美國設防我們還是有這樣的一個審查機制當然我們的審查機制是從整個國家的安全還有整個技術的是不是會造成產業的一個競爭力的影響"},{"start":432.908,"end":446.755,"text":"整體的一個部分我們會去做審查所以你才是沒有辦法肯定說對美國部分這個對中國對美國是沒有設限我們是最先進會留在台灣那現在最先進是多少技術呢是多少奈米呢"},{"start":448.109,"end":473.181,"text":"現在美國是4奈米跟3奈米那我們台灣已經是2奈米好 劉委員 歡迎時間到等一下 我就最後一句話因為已經確定是美國明年2027年就要施加2量米的好 謝謝好 這部分呢 之後的問題呢也許我們就用書面的方式呈現那就謝謝各位我們要知道要保護住台灣的一個經濟上面的一個國家的核心技術關鍵是非常重要的而且民國它的技術一定要調味一定要明確好 謝謝謝謝委員好 請先回座"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}