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周文翔少將"},{"start":1559.389,"end":1582.037,"text":"軍事情報局執行長李友康少將電訊發展室執行長林振偉上校國防大學教育長李成忠少將國家中山科學院研究院院長李士強中將財政部政務次長"},{"start":1588.127,"end":1610.22,"text":"財富中心老闆清華次長國庫署副署長馬曉慧女士庫務管理組組長王淑儀女士債務管理組副署長邱美琪女士稅務部署副署長李志忠副署長"},{"start":1612.926,"end":1629.697,"text":"基深行政署副署長楊純婷女士經濟部產業發展署副署長周宇欣先生社會發展部自動安全署總和貴大處署長李東儀署長"},{"start":1633.88,"end":1657.075,"text":"衛福部會計處檢驗視察鄭美琴女士社會及家庭署科長胡采慧女士保護參事廖江縣先生國科會工程技術處研究發處副處長郭晶女士行政院公共工程委員會企劃處代理處長謝基正處長"},{"start":1661.918,"end":1675.878,"text":"行政院主席總署副主席長陳慧娟女士專門委員陳台偉專門委員李雅雯神經部第二梯廳長陳振庸"},{"start":1682.496,"end":1703.086,"text":"本次聯席會併案審查行政院函勤審議強化防衛練習及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例草案本院台灣民眾黨黨團拟據黨衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例草案及本院國民黨黨團拟據強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案"},{"start":1704.107,"end":1712.138,"text":"現在請提案黨團代表做提案說明每人發言時間三分鐘首先我們請台灣民眾黨黨團代表黃安祥委員說明"},{"start":1721.138,"end":1747.395,"text":"大家早 台灣民眾黨一向支持提升國防預算強化台灣整體戰力本黨科前主席也是第一位要求國家的整體國防預算需要達到GDP3%以上的總統候選人我們也堅決反對缺乏戰略邏輯違背財政紀律甚至規避國會監督的巨額特別預算我們主張特別預算的界限不能模糊"},{"start":1748.775,"end":1769.961,"text":"應該回歸到一般性常態性的公務預算的處理項目就應該回歸於一般性的公務預算以符合財政透明跟長期規劃的財政機率近年來中華人民共和國對我國的軍事威脅持續的升高對台灣的形勢起成常態性的軍事壓迫面對這樣的安全情勢台灣民眾黨為了呼應"},{"start":1771.261,"end":1793.752,"text":"社會對強化國家防衛能力的期待提出這次的軍購相關的特別條例我們的版本羅列了清楚的軍購項目而且這些項目都是目前美方已經清楚表明的軍售項目另外我們也設計了一年一期編列條例通過後行政院須專報並經過立法院同意第二期特別預算"},{"start":1794.412,"end":1810.084,"text":"編列時也須並同提出採購進度、付款情形、裝備到貨情形等專案報告多重的制度保障人民辛苦的納稅錢不會被特別預算拒使佩戒而不知道用去何方我們支持國防但我們不支持"},{"start":1810.805,"end":1838.552,"text":"不清楚的國防以今年為例我們的國防的預算已經佔GDP的3.3%相較於日本的1.38%大韓民國的2.33%已屬相對高的水準對於預算的每一分每一毫都是人民辛苦的納稅錢在國家資源有限的狀況之下更應該精準使用而非任意擴張因此我們期待在委員會審查的程序中大家能夠支持本黨團提出的軍購項目清楚監督程序完備"},{"start":1839.613,"end":1843.04,"text":"嚴守財政紀律不亂編的特別條例版本謝謝接下來請國民黨黨團代表劉許廷委員說明"},{"start":1856.514,"end":1875.431,"text":"謝謝主席 各位同仁 各位媒體朋友 大家早安今天代表國民黨黨團進行軍國特別條例提案說明上個週末非核家園重大議題賴清德總統竟然神奇的轉彎甚至感謝立法院當初修正核關法"},{"start":1876.312,"end":1904.682,"text":"這樣子的一個重大的政治宣示跟這樣的一個事件其實代表了在立法院常常討論很多被妖魔化被汙名化的議題跟主張其實不見得沒有道理當初在野黨團堅持要修正核官法的時候我們就是慘遭出征霸凌甚至被標舉要罷免這都是很重要的其中的理由但是到最後時間會給大家答案有一些主張是有道理的甚至在事後被證明那是有遠見的"},{"start":1905.862,"end":1932.556,"text":"今天軍工條例不外如是我們在野黨提出了不一樣的版本這個各黨在軍購的意見手段跟時程方面都略有不同我們站在在野黨的角色我們希望大家可以慎重理性的討論大家都支持提升國防戰力但是站在在野黨的立場我必須要非常清楚的跟國人同胞說明我們不能隨便同意空白授權"},{"start":1933.556,"end":1961.256,"text":"我們更沒有辦法接受一件啊照理來講應該要提早溝通而且詳細溝通的重大政治決策只因為總統一次的外媒投書就要被情緒勒索而被要求全盤接受我們如果接受那是愧對在野黨的責任跟角色因此不管是民眾黨也好國民黨也好分別提出不同的版本這個國民黨這邊要提醒第一這個龐大的這個特別條例院版的特別條例橫跨了"},{"start":1962.841,"end":1989.414,"text":"這個總統任期甚至動用了下一個任期的預算這個真的符合權責相符任期對應的原則嗎第二這個巨額的財政支出其實已經造成了排擠效應對於我們的社福民生會不會造成衝擊呢社福民生預算會不會能順利的編列呢第三我們也要提醒商購跟自治的國防開支屢傳必端從過去的拉法業達政案到最近的裝潢公司買炸藥案"},{"start":1990.555,"end":2008.649,"text":"如果我們用特別條例一包通知所有的國防採購都開了綠色通道這樣真的適合嗎這個希望大家三思而後行因此本黨的相關的條例版本我們當然支持對美的合理軍購按發架書的進度來合理的編列"},{"start":2009.349,"end":2037.851,"text":"第一階段美方公布國會通過的發價書我們通通都有放進條例也算條例和附帶決裡面序名有任何新的發價我們可以立刻處理確保效率我們的版本也確保了執行時間的縮短第一個要符合任期對應的原則第二我們也希望趕快強化國防戰力最後我們希望這樣子的一個條例的審查不要被政治操作大家能夠秉於理性努力的溝通盡量的達成共識以上謝謝"},{"start":2041.331,"end":2043.212,"text":"主席 各位委員先進"},{"start":2067.45,"end":2094.082,"text":"強化防衛任性及不對稱站立計劃採購特別條例草案於今年3月6日赴為審查今天應要致大院委員會實施特別條例草案專案報告被各位委員了解本次特別條例整體規劃,敬請各位委員先進指教,以利於後續審議工作推展"},{"start":2095.185,"end":2123.053,"text":"相信各位委員都可以體會中共近年持續擴增軍力並逐漸升級灰色地帶威脅更經常以對台作戰想定進行針對性軍演以驗證其作戰計畫共軍由訓轉演,由演轉戰可能性提高加劇台海局勢的不穩定國軍為嚇阻共軍犯台,入力建軍備戰工作,過去十年"},{"start":2124.844,"end":2150.601,"text":"憑藉國防預算穩定成長,運用了公務預算與海空戰力提升特別預算籌獲多項武器系統,以具備基本不對稱戰力乃因敵情威脅陡身,國軍不對稱戰力整體數量、科技與作戰方式等必須隨之調整加入中共封鎖隔離可能性增加,國軍急需強化防衛韌性整備以確保"},{"start":2153.584,"end":2175.178,"text":"能夠維持續戰力為加速籌獲各項武器關鍵武器裝備本部提出強化防衛韌性及不增戰力計畫採購特別條例以提升國境整體戰力達成以實力捍衛國家安全之目標接續"},{"start":2177.387,"end":2185.239,"text":"戰略規劃師黃文綺中將就強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰略計畫採購特別條例查案內容向各位委員實施報告謝謝"},{"start":2197.517,"end":2214.706,"text":"主席各位委員大家好喬哈防衛任性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案報告前言中共近年持續擴張軍力加速軍事現代化各項新式裝備研製服役頻繁於區域執行揮帶洗腦及軍事演習島鏈國家紛紛提升國防預算應對"},{"start":2219.898,"end":2242.882,"text":"中共始終不放棄武力犯台,自2022年起,對我國採取之灰色地帶洗腦與針對性軍演、平視與強度增加,隨時可由訓轉演、由演轉戰,對我促然發動封鎖或突擊。我國必須強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力,以因應中共侵略行為。"},{"start":2244.482,"end":2266.955,"text":"面對敵情威脅日益嚴峻以及新型態戰爭趨勢國軍必須以科技先導加速武器系統現代化目前國軍聯合戰力規劃以科技取代人力火力取代傳統兵力為建構方向至重點與遠距精準機動致命及人工智慧之不對稱戰力為優先建置項目"},{"start":2269.861,"end":2279.687,"text":"近十年積極調升國防預算運用年度工預算與海空戰力特別預算採自製與軍購模式陸續籌貨愛國者防空飛彈系統天宮防空飛彈系統"},{"start":2285.282,"end":2295.148,"text":"海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統、魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統、駝江級高效能艦艇、雄風反艦飛彈系統、雄生飛彈系統、標槍反裝甲飛彈、托斯2B反裝甲飛彈、ALTIS-600M攻擊無人機等不對稱戰力"},{"start":2302.971,"end":2323.995,"text":"總體而言,國軍雖已建制遠距精準打擊防空制海之基本不對稱嚇阻能力,然而仍有大幅精進空間。國軍現階段必須充實現有作戰系統數量導入新興科技裝備,建制整合式戰場管理系統與提升國內軍備量能等精進做法。"},{"start":2325.325,"end":2346.81,"text":"若僅依賴年度公務預算,因受政府總體施政預算分配限制,全數獲得需耗費多年,將形成戰力缺口。因此,編列強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力特別預算,運用其資源集中、規模穩定之特性,一次性籌建可視戰力,促使中共不敢犯台。"},{"start":2348.106,"end":2366.399,"text":"以上將報告國軍運用特別預算強化防衛作戰整體效能規劃建軍規劃重要考量因素使國人了解武器裝備所肩負之多重任務編列必要性及計劃周延性2.強化防衛作戰整體效能規劃"},{"start":2368.243,"end":2384.879,"text":"一、整體防空及飛彈防禦就敵情威脅部分共軍武力犯台攻擊發起研判將以空中戰機、戰術彈道飛彈、遠程精準火箭對我軍實施聯合火力打擊最大威脅包含東風戰術彈道飛彈、航空器、韓無人機"},{"start":2388.544,"end":2402.686,"text":"巡弋飛彈及遠程金輪火箭等企圖奪取台海制空權、削弱我軍防空量能及癱瘓我軍指揮管制以立即發動聯合三棲禁犯作戰行動"},{"start":2405.219,"end":2412.802,"text":"就國軍應對原則部分國軍逐年提升防空雷達性能以擴大徵收範圍增加預警反應時效並強化雷達系統機動力提升戰時存活率與指管韌性"},{"start":2420.1,"end":2446.212,"text":"防空飛彈則採區域部署借重層防空火網搭配載空機對空中威脅實施防空攔截以確保行政軍事重要目標安全目前以愛國者飛彈、天宮飛彈、國家先進地對空飛彈系統也就是NASAMS復仇者飛彈、陸射艦二飛彈等防空系統建構高、中、低層重層防衛架構"},{"start":2447.541,"end":2466.01,"text":"為面對共軍飽和聯合火力打擊時我軍將面臨防空火網密度與攔截空城不足以及防空系統損耗導致攔截率下降無法達到整體安全需求因此就棄虛建制能力部分隨敵人攻擊手段不斷增強與多變"},{"start":2468.278,"end":2482.527,"text":"國軍防空系統需以建構具重層防禦、高度感知、系統整合及有效攔截等特性的強大防空火網。因此,本次特別預算規劃籌購自製強攻飛彈系統與各型反彈道及防空飛彈,並與現有愛國者、天弓與短程區域防空"},{"start":2491.172,"end":2513.98,"text":"系統搭配戰場管理系統完成防空火網系統的整合以提升整體防空與飛彈防禦效能你針對共軍各式無人機將以特別預算採購軟硬砂混合及可稀釋之反制無人機系統你提供全方位防護之台灣之盾有效反制共軍戰術彈道飛彈巡弋飛彈戰機及無人機等威脅"},{"start":2518.953,"end":2534.133,"text":"前述情誌獲得需仰賴AI戰場管理系統鏈接現有及未來籌購之聯合防空先針系統以快速識別目標分析威脅指派任務單位接戰提高成功公算降低非必要之彈藥損耗"},{"start":2536.479,"end":2555.04,"text":"第二部分就聯合反登陸方面在敵情威脅方面研判共軍藉由原火部隊隊友重要設施執行聯合火力打擊並以各型護衛艦掩護兩棲登陸船團等艦艇穿越台海航向預定登陸海灘同步於本島外海關鍵水道部署"},{"start":2559.106,"end":2566.105,"text":"潛艇以建立封鎖線並以海警船協助封控達到切斷外部戰略物資補給與軍事援助等目標"},{"start":2567.915,"end":2591.297,"text":"因此國軍應對原則,國軍運用遠距監偵手段,掌握敵登陸主力指向,接岸機及空中監偵系統,持續追蹤敵動態,並運用聯合指管通知網情監偵與AI輔助決策支援系統,搭配各式武器裝備,形成各領域快速擊殺網,貫徹多域拒止,從成削弱之目標。"},{"start":2593.151,"end":2605.608,"text":"共軍航路階段我軍優先以火力取代兵力運用遠程火力對港口後勤集結點等目標執行火力打擊同時運用水面及水下無人載具遠程艱人無人機"},{"start":2608.965,"end":2618.532,"text":"1.確定共軍艦艇海上位置,指引各式反艦飛彈及中遠程火力與巨子、池子削弱,及打亂其艦艇編隊。2."},{"start":2618.532,"end":2626.958,"text":"共軍登陸階段,運用低空防空系統,掩護守備部隊,遂行防衛作戰,同時運用近程尖針型攻擊型無人機。"},{"start":2627.859,"end":2652.37,"text":"伸縮敵登陸地點與兵力部署,發揮擊身擊打功能,縮短作戰反應時效,並指引主戰部隊戰甲砲車,協同守備部隊對敵登陸部隊實施戰場掃蕩與提供攤岸周邊快速精準火力支援。作戰全程部署各類型無人機反制系統,以防禦小型無人機飽和攻擊威脅。"},{"start":2653.99,"end":2675.769,"text":"為以現有海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統、魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統、尖針型、攻擊型無人機等武器裝備的數量執行聯合反登陸作戰行動仍不足以應對共軍大規模登陸攻勢且缺乏可有效遂行去中心化指管能力是必要AI輔助決策與共同圖像經濟系統不易建立重層削弱之擊殺鏈"},{"start":2677.847,"end":2698.283,"text":"而就氣區建置能力的部分首先籌購AI決策支援系統戰術網路及部隊快速勤船分享應用套件加速指揮決策與部隊勤船效益各類型艦艇無人機及無人艇部署於海軍快速有效識別敵船團位置提供指揮官下達接戰命令"},{"start":2699.804,"end":2722.406,"text":"海馬士多管火箭飛彈系統82套部署於陸軍執行遠距金屬火力打擊防空飛彈部署於陸空軍提升地面部隊中短程防空能力濱海艱爭型、濱海攻擊型無人機21萬架部署於陸海軍提供海上艱爭能力可對敵船團威脅發揮早期預警快速打擊縮短作戰反應時效"},{"start":2724.188,"end":2734.253,"text":"M109A7自走炮60門部署於陸軍提供快速精準火力打擊5N7反制系統部署於三軍部隊以有效發揮戰力防護效果"},{"start":2735.816,"end":2754.349,"text":"第三,在聯合國土防衛方面,就敵情威脅部分,共軍企圖藉優勢兵火力取得制空權並搶單成功後,同步由陸戰、空降及特種部隊佔領後方機場、港口及重大道路,掩護正規部隊遂行登陸、奪取各戰略要域與行任中樞。"},{"start":2755.91,"end":2774.724,"text":"國軍應對原則為,面對當前敵情威脅,需充分運用不對稱作戰與地形優勢條件。習法SR與AI決策支援系統,持續執管三軍各部隊遂行國土防衛,預判敵軍上路後進行方向,運用機動阻絕器材,阻止敵軍快速突入。"},{"start":2775.464,"end":2794.481,"text":"破棋進入我軍預想間敵區運用反裝甲飛彈及其他火力手段擊毀各類型戰甲砲車運用偵打一體無人機以精確打擊方式不斷削弱敵戰力破棋行動失敗作戰全程部署各類型無人機反制系統以防禦小型無人機飽和攻擊威脅"},{"start":2796.467,"end":2825.562,"text":"國軍需有大量尖針型攻擊型無人機,方可滿足旅籍含以下各級地面部隊,有效掌握戰場情勢,發揮擊針擊打效能。另,現有機動阻絕器材,托斯2B反裝甲飛彈、標槍反裝甲飛彈及ALTIS-600M攻擊無人機等武器系統,於執行聯合國土防衛作戰行動中,仍不足以應對共軍優勢兵火力持續攻擊,國軍將面臨武器彈藥在高消耗狀況下嚴重不足。"},{"start":2827.298,"end":2846.107,"text":"因此就氣區建置能力部分首先籌購各類型艦艇型無人機部署於地面部隊使用並建置AI決策支援系統、戰術網路及部隊快速情資分享應用套件與作戰全程藉由安全加密網路之多重情資傳遞建立排行以上層級之戰場共同圖像"},{"start":2848.914,"end":2876.559,"text":"並匯集各項情資至AI決策支援系統以輔助指揮官戰術運用決心參考籌購海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統八舌桃部署於陸軍執行火力支援防空飛彈系統部署於陸空軍提升地面部隊中短程防空能力ALTIS-700M 1554架ALTIS-600ISR型478架反裝甲型無人機系統部署於各座彈區以發揮擊針擊打之精準堅定效果"},{"start":2877.6,"end":2887.281,"text":"M229A7自走炮60門部署於陸軍提供快速精准火力打擊另利用無人機反制系統部署於各地面作戰部隊有效降低敵小型無人機威脅"},{"start":2889.079,"end":2909.853,"text":"在作戰持續量能準備方面就擴增自產量能部分考量戰時關鍵補給品消耗以及遭封鎖時之彈藥補給需求由於無人機、火炮、自製飛彈與彈藥等都必須要有充分自製與戰備存量等相關量能達到平時滿足國軍推動實彈化訓練、應練習義務役訓練後備教召、延長等訓號戰時維持軍備自給自足產能支持各級部隊發揮連戰韌性"},{"start":2919.76,"end":2937.554,"text":"如未獲付特別預算將影響戰時高消耗彈藥供給能量降低防衛作戰持續能力補足戰備存量部分於擴增產線未完成建置前規劃以特別預算籌購重要急缺彈藥既有120公釐戰車炮、105公釐戰車彈、30公釐機炮彈、155公釐榴彈發射藥包及強力高能炸藥等需求一次性補充戰備存量以應對嚴峻之敵情威脅"},{"start":2948.547,"end":2971.674,"text":"若逐年編列採購如此龐大彈藥增購需求,將排擠其他後勤維持費年度支出。在美方技術合作方面,鑒於美國防科技領先全球,我國需極力爭取共同研發與技術合作,避免武器裝備因新興科技發展迅速與科技迭代,產生性能落後與構型老舊等形式。"},{"start":2972.814,"end":2995.748,"text":"先獲得美方關鍵技術移轉,規劃籌購台美共同研發及合作生產之武器裝備系統,以加速我國軍工產業發展,並結合本土自製,打造飛鴻供應鏈。在建軍規劃重要考量因素方面,第一點,公務預算之限制性及編列特別預算之必要性。"},{"start":2998.239,"end":3008.627,"text":"國軍並計畫預算制度與兵力整建計畫推動各項軍事投資建案,每年依預算獲付額度優先滿足持續案,再決定新增納案需求。"},{"start":3009.625,"end":3034.33,"text":"目前持續重大按向機有M1A2T戰車海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統第一階段仁西式短程防空飛彈RTX600M攻擊無人機系統魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統索銀二港口擴建工程康定級艦戰鬥系統提升I2性能提升及採購I3飛彈新式高校機MQ-9B高高空無人機等"},{"start":3035.35,"end":3053.545,"text":"將於未來三年達到交運付款高峰期針對部分剛完成預約與大量備料投產的建案包含國家先進地對空飛彈系統、站管新型機動雷達換裝等也有龐大的預算需求且美方已表示相關案項均不得延後付款"},{"start":3054.656,"end":3072.808,"text":"限於中央政府總預算稅數規模有限以及政府各項施政計畫的排斥效應無法將戰備需求全數納入公務預算以115年為例軍事投資預算額度計有新台幣1616億元扣除優先支應以簽署合約之持續案1532億後僅84億元可供新增納案"},{"start":3081.823,"end":3095.948,"text":"若以本次特別預算自治其商購額度約三千餘億元平均每年約五百餘億元另後續新增案包含華社天劍二型飛彈天弓三型飛彈續購陸射艦二防空飛彈續購雄二雄三反艦飛彈續購國軍夜視鏡第二階段"},{"start":3101.61,"end":3125.065,"text":"跑滑道搶修裝備等長期性重大軍頭建案總需求亦高達700餘億元新台幣如未獲付特別預算不僅可納新增案項的額度有限另外對於暫時高消耗彈藥等作戰持續量能的需求若採逐年編列採購亦將排擠其他後勤維持費年度的支出降低防衛作戰持續力"},{"start":3126.702,"end":3141.12,"text":"總體而言,公務預算年度新增額度或持續額度,並不指引特別預算建案需求,將造成建案獲得時間延宕,形成戰力下行。第二點,所有軍頭建案必須符合國軍計劃預算制度。"},{"start":3143.464,"end":3157.991,"text":"國軍依據敵情威脅與防衛作戰需求制定聯合戰力規劃要項與五年兵力整建計畫蓄意建案作業程序完成建案文件的作業包含作戰需求、系統分析、騎乘工項及整理獲得規劃書"},{"start":3159.929,"end":3178.994,"text":"具以編列預算,在篆理特別條例申請特別預算,如為侵購案,在計畫過程中確認作戰需求後,即向美方遞交發架書需求信函。若美方於預算通過後,能為進行知會國會程序,應受台美機密法規規範列為機密案,是知會國會後轉為公開資訊。"},{"start":3182.677,"end":3206.274,"text":"令美方於智慧國會後,將軍購案發價書草案送交我國審議,我國需作戰需求及預算額度等條件,審視發價書內容,並與美方進行組建及附屬裝備向量的偵檢協商,以符合我國真實需求。此雙方簽署發價書後,使由美方與合約商進行生產意願。"},{"start":3208.342,"end":3227.92,"text":"依立法院106年決議文,徐氏預算通過後,只能簽署發架書。本次特別預算中,托士2B反裝甲飛彈、標槍反裝甲飛彈、ML-09A7自走炮及海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統等四項,應以施惠國會協議提供發架書草案。"},{"start":3228.781,"end":3257.46,"text":"為尚未通過特別條例及預算故本部特於3月12日請大院授權先行簽署發價書總體而言國軍建案作業程序是先完成整體評估與計劃作為再申請預算之系統化流程過程週延延緊針對軍公案發價書簽署前須先與美方完成綿密協調取得供收意願預估金額須預化貨裝期程等資訊須以完成建案作業程序"},{"start":3258.2,"end":3281.579,"text":"若要先獲得發料書時可執行相關建案程序,將使建案作為自愛難行第三點,因應新型態戰爭建立AI運用與無人系統戰力檢視惡霧與免疫戰爭,未來戰場將強化人工智慧與無人系統的作戰運用呈現智慧化、無人化、資訊化、科技與傳統作戰緊密結合之新型態戰爭"},{"start":3283.459,"end":3298.069,"text":"AI方面,可運用於決策資源系統,藉由數位化網路,彙整衛星、雷達、各類型武器裝備、無人機、第一線作戰人員、公開情資等多重感測系統所獲訊息,運用AI模型採集資料庫數據,執行敵軍當面各種動態徵後分析與比對。"},{"start":3305.404,"end":3323.468,"text":"快速篩選目標種類預測敵可能行動敵作戰中心與潛在執行風險建立戰場共同圖像具以深層不同行動方案輔助職位官下達決策相較傳統作業模式資料收集更廣處理速度更快分析更精準"},{"start":3325.086,"end":3351.987,"text":"無人系統作戰方面具備遠距遙控、籌載多元化、穿越地章的特性可強化情境深密度提供火力單元更快更直接情報來源亦可克服傳統火炮射程與死角對遠處隱蔽之敵實施精準打擊特別預算針對海上與地面作戰各階段大量籌購各類型艦艇、攻擊無人機及無人艇善用無人系統優勢加速無人化作戰轉型"},{"start":3354.148,"end":3376.053,"text":"總體而言AI與無人系統相輔相成導入傳統作戰相可強化整體運用效能例如俄烏戰爭中烏克蘭運用無人機徵收敵情並以AI系統分析判斷俄軍指揮所與後勤補給點隱匿位置快速指派攻擊無人機與海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統實施精準打擊擊殺鏈從數小時縮短為數分鐘第四點"},{"start":3381.226,"end":3384.383,"text":"有效整合、徵收、打擊後製力等作戰有機體"},{"start":3385.816,"end":3411.827,"text":"面對中共多領域武力犯台之威脅形態國軍制定多域拒止、重騰削弱之聯合作戰準備方向針對中共聯合封鎖、聯合火力打擊、登陸作戰、陸上作戰等各階段犯台行動利用特別預算籌購遠中近程與艦艇專用各式艦艇無人機以及艦制戰術網路與部隊快速情資分享套件協和現有訊安、緩緩、連程等系統"},{"start":3414.808,"end":3429.139,"text":"構成綿密勤奸爭網路快速提供空中、海上、地面目標情資搭配人工智慧與決策資源系統即時指派反彈道、防空、反裝甲精準打擊與各式自殺型無人機部隊對目標發動攻擊"},{"start":3441.021,"end":3459.452,"text":"另外最重要的是需要有足夠支援防衛作戰全程的作戰持續力包含彈藥、火炸藥、信管及戰甲車等後勤支援能量皆需滿足作戰需求整體而言本次特別預算強化建制、徵收、打擊與後支力等三項戰力形成靈活韌性之作戰有機體強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力"},{"start":3463.203,"end":3492.182,"text":"最後一點滿足長期作戰自主所需量能鑒於我國為海島國家中共可能封鎖本島周遭海域隔離外國勢力介入以切斷補給線導致我軍作戰持續力下滑為建置無人機本土自製量能提升防衛作戰韌性規劃籌購20萬架各類型無人機及無人艇藉由長期大量訂單鼓勵國內廠商挹注資金建立產能並自主研發除可滿足作戰持續更能同步打造飛鴻供應鏈"},{"start":3494.023,"end":3522.119,"text":"另針對國內產能不足與國內無產能等兩類彈藥與重要軍品同步採軍商購併行模式籌貨以有效運營部隊日常訊號戰備彈藥短缺與戰號補充等需求南帶產線為建立前借年度公務預算分年籌補環部計集需編列特別預算籌貨一次性大幅提升彈藥存量及增建14條兵工產線以滿足戰時高消耗及平時訓練彈藥供給能量提升整體作案韌性"},{"start":3524.26,"end":3541.988,"text":"寫語軍事投資效益並非單純以數字來衡量而是以建構之聯合戰力能否有效應對當前最為極致敵情威脅來判斷國軍歷年來為秉持計劃預算制度周延兵力整建計劃並以國家財力預渡逐年整建所需戰力為面對急劇變化之威脅形態"},{"start":3542.748,"end":3559.526,"text":"以及軍武科技日新月異趨勢供預算已還不及時國軍必須運用特別預算快速整建所需戰力與軍備自主量能建構成現代化近旅阻止中共任何可能犯來企圖報名好 謝謝接著請財政部委員次長上台報告"},{"start":3567.938,"end":3580.881,"text":"主席 各位委員 先請大家早安經外交部 外交及國防財政委員會召開聯席會議審查行政院函請審議強化防衛任性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案與大院 臺灣民眾黨團 中國國民黨黨團分別領據防衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫"},{"start":3595.946,"end":3621.027,"text":"採購特別條例草案強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案共三案檢究涉及本部業務部分檢要說明進行指教行政院草案第五條規定那麼本條例所需的經費上限是新台幣1兆1.25兆以特別條例以特別預算的方式來編列其預算編制不受預算法第23條不得充"},{"start":3623.148,"end":3642.66,"text":"經常支出規定制限制但經費額度因匯率變動影響超過上限部分得以總預算方式來編列前項所需要的經費來源得以一用以前年度的稅金剩餘或舉債的方式來辦理其以特別預算方式編列的每年度的"},{"start":3643.977,"end":3673.34,"text":"舉借債務的額度不受公共債務法第五條第七項規定的限制中央政府總預算及特別預算在本條例實行期間的舉債額度合計數不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算稅出總額合計數的15%中央政府舉借的一年以上公共債務未償餘額預算數應依照公共債務法第五條第一項的規定納入控管行政院的草案如經過大院審查通過本部將配合"},{"start":3674.193,"end":3683.578,"text":"國防部及行政總署辦理特別預算的籌編並以特別條例公共債務法及財政紀律法等規定來控管債務來維護財政紀律"},{"start":3686.533,"end":3714.75,"text":"有關大院臺灣民眾黨團及中國國民黨黨團所提的特別條例草案部分那麼請就涉及本部部分的剪掉說明那麼經費上限民眾黨的草案為四千新台幣四千億元那國民黨團為三千八百億元並授權未來的再行提出第二階段的特別條例至於經費來源及債務控管的規定民眾黨團的"},{"start":3715.992,"end":3718.559,"text":"草案跟行政院的草案大致相同"},{"start":3719.246,"end":3747.597,"text":"那國民黨團的草案則未就經費來源及債務控管進行規範因此我們建議以行政院的草案來推動那第二個民眾黨的草案第五條第八項規定本條例施行期間各年度中央政府總預算案所編列的社會福利支出不得少於115年度中央政府總預算案所編列的社會福利支出佔比恐有"},{"start":3749.313,"end":3766.218,"text":"財政紀律法第七條有關立法機關制定或者是訂定或修正法律法規或自治法規時不得增訂固定經費額度或比例保障之一律因此我們建議以行政院的草案來推動"},{"start":3767.398,"end":3781.865,"text":"那第三個民眾黨的草案第六條規定籌編第一期預算的時候應考量我國的人口年齡結構變動因素的影響衡量我國稅入負擔能力以因應高齡化及少子化對編列預算財政衝擊等"},{"start":3787.828,"end":3809.735,"text":"近年中央及地方政府預算籌編原則都已經有規定政府在籌編預算的時候應考量人口年齡結構變動對教育、國防及社會福利政策的影響目前各相關的主管機關都依照該原則來辦理因此我們建議以行政院的草案來推動"},{"start":3814.062,"end":3817.463,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生 大家好今天應邀列席第十一屆第五會期貴委員會第一次聯席會議對於病案審查行政院版本台灣民眾黨團以及中國國民黨團"},{"start":3843.832,"end":3859.079,"text":"版本所提的有關對美軍購的特別條例草案提出報告以下僅就條文涉及本總處的部分簡要說明如下一行政院函請審議強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例草案第五條的規定經費上限為"},{"start":3867.903,"end":3891.56,"text":"1.25兆以特别预算方式编列其预算编制不受预算法第23条不得冲经常支出规定之限制但经费额度因汇率变动影响超过上限部分得以总预算方式编列经费来源可以以用以前年度税计剩余或举借债务方式办理"},{"start":3893.174,"end":3915.746,"text":"其中我們針對每年度舉債額度的部分排除公債法的限制但是對於條例施行期間的舉債額度仍然要求要符合這個稅出總額15%的規定那至於一年以上公共債務未償債務餘額的預算數則仍然應依照公債法第五條第一項的規定"},{"start":3918.207,"end":3935.438,"text":"我們主要考量這個條例國防部所採購的強化防任性及任性及不對稱戰力的裝備及系統主要是經常支出所以為了因應與日俱增之敵情威脅"},{"start":3937.642,"end":3956.058,"text":"以確保國家安全所以我們排除預算法第23條的規定另特別預算財源規劃的部分以目前預估115年度累計債務未償餘額佔前三年度GDP平均數的比例是26.4%"},{"start":3959.321,"end":3963.746,"text":"距離舉債的上限還有14.2%的空間所以有3.7兆所以預計還可以因應本條例採購的預算需求"},{"start":3973.416,"end":3999.146,"text":"基于采购裁员已经按照财政纪律法第五条以及恪守国家财政健全的理念在本条例第五条明确规范经费来源及债务控管机制等原建议支持行政院版本所定的条文二有关台湾民众党党团拟据之保卫国家安全及强化不对称战力"},{"start":4000.906,"end":4012.271,"text":"計劃採購特別條例草案其中第五條第二項及第八項規定本條例採購財一年一期方式編列考量"},{"start":4014.287,"end":4042.494,"text":"這個國防部規劃軍事採購的目的是爭取一次性配付確保資源穩定集中加速籌貨所需戰力為了兼顧計畫實效性及經費完整性近年編列之新式戰機及海空戰力提升計畫採購特別預算均為一次性編列多年期的預算所以本條例編列之特別預算"},{"start":4043.194,"end":4068.808,"text":"建議循例採一致性編列多年期預算方式辦理令第五條有規範希望社福支出不得少於115年度中央政府總預算所編列之社福支出佔比基於我們財政紀律法第七條不得增訂固定經費額度或比例保障之規定所以建議刪除該項條文"},{"start":4071.489,"end":4094.448,"text":"另外第六條規定本條例籌編第一期預算時應考量本條例施行其間我國人口年齡結構變動因素之影響省省規劃收支額度及中長程財務計劃衡量國家稅務負擔能力以因應高齡化及少子女化對編列預算財政的衝擊"},{"start":4097.39,"end":4114.377,"text":"考量預算法已經有相關的規範尤其我們在中央及地方政府預算籌編原則已經有類似的規範了所以我們建議不用在這個條例再行訂定三 中國國民黨團拟據強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案"},{"start":4120.9,"end":4140.955,"text":"為救經費來源及債務管控進行規範為遵循財政紀律法第五條規定及加強管控財政收支建議以行政院版本推動以上報告敬請各位委員女士先生會議指教謝謝副主席長其他機關報告請參閱署名資料現在開始詢答"},{"start":4145.404,"end":4163.07,"text":"那本次聯席會議委員5加2分鐘非聯席會委員4分鐘那10點半截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點半前提出那11點左右視訊的情況進行處理現在我們請賴氏把委員上台諮詢"},{"start":4171.885,"end":4177.368,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長我們請顧部長是 賴委員不能找那個F16V是不是今年開始交捐預計我們今年可以交交多台 要多少台"},{"start":4200.218,"end":4215.288,"text":"我們現在還沒有辦法做一個精確的估算可是不是什麼案件都已經測試了啊剛剛就說可以交了大概什麼時候交第三劑是不是"},{"start":4216.653,"end":4241.044,"text":"預估第三季第三季可以交運返台所以我們大概九月份可以看到第一架是不是這個意思現在預估預估可以所以這也沒有確定所以這個來講那MQ-9V什麼時候交第三季也是第三季所以這個就看到這兩天的新聞物件一直來就是為了今天"},{"start":4242.213,"end":4263.116,"text":"大家都知道某種程度這也是一個認知作戰我請教你這句話對不對說我們已經交了錢六千億的武器沒有交是不是對不對就對了不對怎麼講你講我想這個部分是不是請站規師這一題已經回答很多次了"},{"start":4264.844,"end":4284.768,"text":"包委員我們所有的案子不論是軍購或商購我們都是依據執行進度去付款也就是我們每年會編列預算很多個年度的預算一次一次付所以不是像媒體上面寫的那些案子的總額六千億我們就一次付了六千億所以從來沒有這種事"},{"start":4285.188,"end":4305.885,"text":"但是這是玩文字遊戲就是換一句話說我要強調的雖然你們在這裡講過我也問過你們講說事實上是三千億可是看帳怎麼算你們要等於把到貨期往後延所以那個就沒有交所以不是說我這樣講好了不是說我交錢交了六千億我交了三千億沒有交券對吧但是還有三千億你還沒給錢對吧 我這樣講對吧"},{"start":4315.026,"end":4316.507,"text":"我這樣講對不對嘛你又回答我嘛我這樣講對不對就是我已經交了錢有3000億沒有來但是我另外我要買的項目還有3000億我錢還沒有交他當然沒有來"},{"start":4330.62,"end":4353.769,"text":"我想這個過去也講過很多次就是說我們現在買的二十幾項的武器裝備有提前交易有準時交易那還沒有的主要就是三個一個F-16那您剛質疑的第二個就是Mk-48的重巡儀類那第三個就是AGM-154這個大概三個部分有遲延那加起來多少錢F-16的部分"},{"start":4355.809,"end":4383.368,"text":"這三個加起來多少錢?M16的部分均購款是2400億元左右然後已經付了1490億元左右然後呢?然後AGM1547買56枚大概是60億左右的案款但是目前因為預約還沒有全部完成所以只付了1億多的先期準備款然後重型魚雷的部分兩個案子加起來是1.77億"},{"start":4385.729,"end":4390.79,"text":"美金左右你剛剛講都是美金嘛對不對一樣我們前面只有大概付了3億多台幣的初期準備款你沒有回答我的問題我剛剛講的就對不對你可以講我講錯沒關係嘛你就在這裡我剛剛講的是說我們現在說是錢已經交了沒有交券的3000億另外有3000億錢還沒有交"},{"start":4415.177,"end":4427.344,"text":"錢還沒有給 錢還沒有給嘛 對嗎 交易一樣的意思我沒有給 那是三千億嘛 對不對 我這樣講對不對 這一句話對不對 包圍員也不對好 那你跟我糾正一下 我們先回到那個卡關你跟我講 因為我時間有限 你就告訴我 好 已經交錢的有多少錢沒有來 還沒有交的有多少錢 就這樣子再把三個交起來"},{"start":4441.943,"end":4447.725,"text":"包委員為了數字精確的關係我們這邊建議我們匯整一份資料給您"},{"start":4449.264,"end":4470.321,"text":"因為剛剛他已經大致上講了就是說大概Mk48的魚雷然後加AGM154再加這個F16B那這個當然還是有美金計價的然後再折算成台幣這是一點那第二點大概相關三個組織他剛剛大概都已經說明了你剛才講美金計價一個六十億六十億台幣就是差不多兩千億啊對不對沒有沒有沒有六十億你剛講不是六十億嗎那你再重複一遍"},{"start":4479.505,"end":4491.129,"text":"AGM1547是60億左右的台幣台幣喔 你剛剛講美金和台幣60億台幣 還有一點多億一點多億是美金 還有一點77億是魚壘是美金吧對 是美金 對嘛 還有另外一個一點多億是美金 對所以就有差不多3億美金左右嘛就差不多100億左右嘛100億加60億 160億嘛 你又這樣精準講就這個意思吧 巴偉我們還是建議給你一個統計資料"},{"start":4509.924,"end":4513.35,"text":"現在看到這個中東打仗了美國有沒有可能跟我們借愛國者飛彈我們目前沒有接過任何相關這樣的一個訊息所以他不需要"},{"start":4527.337,"end":4534.038,"text":"我們沒有被揭霍有任何需要你難道不會擔心我們這邊的預算又有買愛國者飛彈愛國者飛彈美國在中東打得差不多了他還有愛國者飛彈賣我們嗎難道你不會擔心這個嗎"},{"start":4543.021,"end":4564.129,"text":"我們現在也沒有接貨任何因為我們現在還有續購的那個愛國者的飛彈現有我們當時用捷運館買的一百零二枚的飛彈那這個部分他也沒有說要表示要遲延交付所以準時交卷我們現在只能說沒有接貨任何有關遲延交付的訊息好最後一點部長我在這裡很慎重提出來其實大家都了解這次其實就是"},{"start":4572.321,"end":4598.683,"text":"我覺得名稱應該用這個B黨的啦加強國防及對美採購全部都對美採購啊畢業正名夫就是對美採購我們的版本是3800億加N這個N現在出現什麼時候出現什麼時候加上去因為媒體報導啦不是嗎只不過美國政府還沒有最後確認"},{"start":4600.831,"end":4604.174,"text":"他要再賣140億美金有人講150億那就差不多4500億台幣加上去就8000多"},{"start":4608.695,"end":4614.237,"text":"這個加收區8000多啊那你的一點澳照其實加了很多都是國內採購這一部分我覺得應該要放在一般的預算裡面跟委員報告像強攻的這個反戰術彈道飛彈的這個系統就是我們委託中科院製作的我想這個部分也是我們整體防攻那個放在年度預算可以啊放在年度預算可以啊"},{"start":4636.673,"end":4650.718,"text":"我想委員應該有知道我們之前就有強化這個海空戰力特別提升的一個特別計畫那個也是我們這個特別條例裡面我們希望能夠有一個穩定的預算來源來強化海空戰力那麼強攻這個戰術彈道飛彈這個也是重要的一個部分"},{"start":4659.461,"end":4679.274,"text":"那現在這個3800加NN已經出現差不多隱約出現所以就有8000多億了將近9000億了這個數字我個人支持另外就是無人載具的部分希望各位委員能夠支持因為我們希望能夠資源集中預算穩定的情況之下能夠建立我們的國防自主產能"},{"start":4682.976,"end":4689.2,"text":"這個放年度預算都可以我們今年度要省的預算是增加3000億的國防預算我們希望有一個規模性的需求來強化我們的國防資格這個東西啊能夠把它匡列啊你這個3800加NN已經出現"},{"start":4700.447,"end":4713.039,"text":"出現的時候就八千多億了這個我個人是支持的我先去講我是支持的你要珍惜我的支持喔這個東西否則就是只有三千八喔否則這個N出現了只要美國要賣"},{"start":4717.984,"end":4723.047,"text":"華家是不是來我們需要的這兩個條件都滿足我支持就這樣子部長你要珍惜喔珍惜這樣的講法其他的你要發展無人機沒有人反對那個都可以放在年度預算啦否則你就特別預算你要去給我們不是說不儲值國內的這個國防工業啦馬桶的裝修的都來沒有道理啦工程會要跟著去修法更沒有道理"},{"start":4747.793,"end":4767.127,"text":"好 謝謝賴世寶委員那我們請陳俊宇委員好 謝謝召委 我們有請顧部長請部長部長早"},{"start":4775.765,"end":4789.639,"text":"部長我們今天所要審查的這個特別條例關乎到我們台灣未來多年的防衛韌性那尤其中共近來對台灣的這個威脅已經不僅僅是傳統的這個武力而是結合平時不斷升級的揮帶侵擾還有暫時的這種聯合火力打擊"},{"start":4793.843,"end":4811.053,"text":"面對這個如此嚴峻的這個挑戰我們必須要快速建構足以嚇阻共軍的一個戰力那相關的議題我們在先前也都討論過現在總算是可以進一步聚焦在條例本身的這個內容尤其針對三個版本的差異我想"},{"start":4811.613,"end":4837.969,"text":"再將我們防衛作戰的需求軍購的流程以及無人機的運用還有國防自主能力等方面請部長進一步來詳細跟國人說明那為什麼行政院八年1.25兆才是最符合國軍的一個需求版本首先我們在這個防空計畫上所要打造的這個台灣之盾也參考到其他國家的經驗"},{"start":4838.849,"end":4857.018,"text":"建構高中低分層的攔截火網其中很重要的也是院版當中有納入人工智慧與這個C5ISR系統這個項目那從報告內容來看即便我們籌獲到性能良好的這個飛彈但是沒有一個大腦來連結"},{"start":4859.139,"end":4874.918,"text":"和指揮一旦面對中共利用廉價的這種遠程飛彈火箭飛彈或是低成本的無人機搭配彈道飛彈進行飽和攻擊我們的防空效率恐怕也是存在疑慮"},{"start":4876.57,"end":4895.697,"text":"那我想先就這個部分跟請部長說明,院板所納入的AI輔助還有C5ISR系統有什麼樣的一個必要性?如果缺少這個系統,對於我們在這個防空以及反登陸的國土防衛上會有什麼樣的一個影響?"},{"start":4897.514,"end":4916.671,"text":"所以我們今天的專案報告確實用了比較大的偏乎因為我們是要說明這個整個防衛作戰需要的一個整體效能特別您提到的CYSR跟AI輔助決策系統的這個部分"},{"start":4917.151,"end":4940.94,"text":"不管是在這個整體防空飛彈防禦的部分或者是聯合反登陸以及這一個聯合國土防衛的部分他都要貫穿全場所以我們在希望就是說在這一個整個作為一個大腦的這種概念那如果要能夠導入這個AI輔助跟CVSR這個系統我們會獲得比這一種"},{"start":4944.125,"end":4960.466,"text":"傳統的人工作業或者是這樣子的一個類比式的資訊的傳遞要能夠更能夠有可能來建立一個完整的共同作戰圖像來加速擊殺戀在進行防衛作戰這個我覺得是非常重要的一塊好"},{"start":4962.223,"end":4989.785,"text":"從先前這個俄烏戰爭到近期的這個美伊之間的衝突來看現在戰場對於這個無人載具的運用是重中之重那針對我們院版也編列了20多萬架的無人機以及1000多艘的這個無人艇的預算那有人認為說無人機的這個疊帶速度很快不應該一次買齊但是現在軍方精算出20萬架的這個數字我想"},{"start":4990.965,"end":5015.592,"text":"應當也有相當的一個依據那朝向建構這種地域景象所需的這個數量我想請教就是說這20萬架的無人機採購如何能夠落實所謂國防自主和非紅供應鏈的一個政策這是第一點第二點為什麼我們必須透過特別預算才能夠來帶動國內廠商投入產能研發而不是透過年度預算來編列"},{"start":5016.832,"end":5031.664,"text":"那第三如果這一筆這個項目最後沒有被納入對於我們戰力會不會有什麼影響會不會影響到各個這個作戰區預算在今年七月前所編程的這個無人機大隊我想"},{"start":5032.825,"end":5056.379,"text":"在俄烏戰爭甚至在這一次的美伊戰爭應該大家都看得很清楚就是說在新型態戰爭的情況之下呢快速建構這個無人載具的這樣的一個部隊戰力它的關鍵的重要性那之所以要編入特別預算裡面呢我們也有考慮到它的迭代創新"},{"start":5057.499,"end":5082.268,"text":"然後我們也要考慮到它科技的一個進展所以我們想的是說我們要透過推動無人採集的產業發展鏈來提升國防資本能力但同時我們也要考慮到這個無人機的快速發展所以我們一次不會說我們就去採購到20萬架我們一定是分批的然後我們每一次在分批的過程當中我們都會要求明年的採購"},{"start":5084.129,"end":5101.945,"text":"的規格是如何後年的規格是如何但有一個最重要的一點是假如我們排入年度預算那我們只能夠在年度預算可能編列個多少價但是我們現有的這個整個的產業鏈我們要看的"},{"start":5103.08,"end":5127.465,"text":"他們要看的是一個長單這個長單要考慮到快速的迭代創新但是要考慮到我們讓他們知道我們國進的這個需求我們國進的需求可能我說實在的可能不只20萬家我們編入特別預算有20萬家我們是分期來規劃我們不斷的考慮到迭代創新但是我們要讓他們知道無人載具的一個發展"},{"start":5127.725,"end":5152.265,"text":"在國內一個最健全的產業供應鏈對我們的國防能力國防的自主能力國防的韌性是如何等的重要我們不可能期待說我們就用這個20萬架甚至說5萬架我們就能夠打一場這一個保雨防災作戰但是重點是我們要在戰時就如同烏克蘭一樣我們可以在我們的國內就能夠自主生產是"},{"start":5153.257,"end":5178.115,"text":"那我們要讓國內自主生產這個產業鏈要起來啊這個產業鏈如果他沒有辦法看到他一個長的一個單子他如何願意建立這樣子的一個產線進去投資還有現在這樣的迭代創新要跟世界各國甚至不是只有美國要跟世界的各國要來不斷的進行共同的研發共同的"},{"start":5179.036,"end":5200.455,"text":"技術合作轉移等等那他這些他也要看到未來他沒有看到未來他如何願意跑進來跟你做那這個就是無人機產業再來就是說打造一個飛鴻供應鏈降低這個整個資訊安全的威脅現在無人機的市場在商用市場上大家都可以看得出來最大的是誰"},{"start":5202.128,"end":5212.511,"text":"就是中國啊那我們現在要民主國家打造一個飛鴻工藝鏈那我們沒有一定的產業規模我們如果說按照現在的只有三千架他一架要賣多少錢"},{"start":5213.971,"end":5242.37,"text":"那他如何迭代創新他如何能夠引進技術我想這個都是我們編入特別預算的一個重要性那這個這樣子的我們如果能夠突破這樣子的一個預算額度的限制來快速增長戰力來快速增加我們的國防自主能力快速強化我們的防衛韌性快速的能夠不斷的進行迭代創新無人載具的關鍵性力量事實上在這兩次每一的衝突"},{"start":5244.289,"end":5259.44,"text":"烏鴉戰爭裡面都看得已經是非常非常清楚所以我們是很急切的期待朝野都能夠支持無人載具在我們的這個國軍災害部門的需求上面能夠重視然後用特別預算來編列好 謝謝部長"},{"start":5260.56,"end":5281.974,"text":"其實烏雲載具在未來的戰爭當中應該就是很重要的一個攻擊的武器所以確實是對於在台灣守護我們國家安全上是一個非常重要的一個項目那守護國家的相關安全我們確實也不能打折也不能再拖延請國防部持續跟各黨團"},{"start":5283.215,"end":5307.636,"text":"做更好的一個溝通也讓我們全國的國人能夠了解到八年1.25兆的這個規劃是經過我們兩年以上的審慎研究也是與美方進行政府與政府之間的一個詳細的溝通符合敵情威脅的一個專業評估那也都是我們防衛作戰所需的一個核心裝備我們的目標當然就是要讓"},{"start":5308.657,"end":5329.335,"text":"共軍對台作戰的時間表能夠一再的往後甚至也讓敵人不敢輕舉妄動那我希望我們各位同仁一起來支持這一項的預算讓我們國防部能夠儘早來做一個更詳實的一個規劃好 以上謝謝謝謝部長謝謝陳俊委員那我們接下來請林德福委員"},{"start":5344.107,"end":5351.75,"text":"主席還有議會各列席官員還有我們各位同仁是不是請那個顧部長請顧部長是林委員部長你好部長本席是支持國防備戰而不起戰用實力來確保和平那本席知道軍售啊是賣方的市場"},{"start":5373.052,"end":5377.28,"text":"我們溢價能力有限但民眾看不慣"},{"start":5378.442,"end":5404.242,"text":"合約簽了立法院也三讀通過的預算錢也付了那美方武器的這些裝備啊這個延遲交貨那請國防部簡要的說明以付款的軍購到貨時間延誤的情況哪一項武器或裝備延宕最久延宕時間多久國防部有沒有什麼解決因應的對策"},{"start":5406.505,"end":5428.139,"text":"跟委員報告,我想剛剛站規司長大致上已經說明了我們現在還持續案件大概應該有23案那很多部分都是按照節點來交運,或者甚至有提前交運那剛剛就講就有三個,一個當然就是大家都在講的F16V那F16V我們現在已經在產線看到已經有59架來進入產線那現在也都在進行試飛"},{"start":5435.163,"end":5449.711,"text":"當然因為手架機的試費他除了在場進行試費以外他還要整個進到我們美國相關的基地去進行整個系統的測試所以這些測試的這個部分呢應該會花比較久一點的時間但是我想只要這個手機的測試"},{"start":5454.737,"end":5470.586,"text":"進入的這個一定的這個順利之後呢我剛剛也已經回答了我們應該可以預計在第三季齁的時候我們看得到這一個飛機因為他飛機要先到美國再進行我們飛行員的訓練訓練完之後呢才會載運回來所以這個部分"},{"start":5472.771,"end":5491.448,"text":"我們預估第三季可以來那另外兩個部分一個就是MARK48的重型育壘一個是AGM154那這個部分相關的部分事實上我們現在付的款項並不是很多剛剛站位師大概已經說明了一下那個不必講了我剛剛有聽到那個部長"},{"start":5492.449,"end":5517.677,"text":"因為113年12月31日有一篇文章淺談軍購公補不符案件策略的分析基於政府內部的控制與賽局理論的改進建議撰文者是軍方的人員出自於國防部主計局發行的刊物的主計記刊"},{"start":5520.639,"end":5531.149,"text":"113年12月31號你們可以去換文章指出軍購花架書合約有利美方軍購禮約過程的花生爭議時必須依照"},{"start":5534.844,"end":5559.586,"text":"美國規定的程序來進行依照他們的程序我方現行的辦理索賠程序啊美方決定不以賠償時申請索賠單位缺乏有效第三方的申訴管道換句話說你怎麼講都沒有用啦他講怎麼樣就怎麼樣部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":5560.376,"end":5581.891,"text":"美國他就軍購的部分當然是他對全世界在賣武器他都有他的一個內部的一個集合的程序雙方在軍購案之後都會成立專案辦公室那他們內部也會有相關的集合這個集合的單位集合但是我們沒有來你也沒有辦法申訴也沒有辦法去要求任何啊"},{"start":5583.691,"end":5597.237,"text":"我們會透過這個,因為專案辦公室我們會有人派在那個地方那相關的這些進度也好,或者是相關的這些執行的這些期程暗箱的狀況如何,我們都會充分的予以掌握"},{"start":5598.238,"end":5613.712,"text":"議長問沒有用啊他們說的算我們說的沒有用啊問題是卡在這裡啊我們不能說的是沒有用啦但是委員大概問的意思是說如果他交易期程是不是我們能夠跟他索賠那這個點我必須要坦誠講我們是沒有辦法跟他進行索賠如果委員問的是這一點"},{"start":5615.033,"end":5631.563,"text":"但是他整個的整個的集合的流程是 我想是相當嚴密的這但是就是就美方而言跟我們也要進行有一個專案的辦公室來進行合作那所以現在委員所一再問的就是說軍購 交易執行他們講的算我們確實沒有辦法對軍購案來進行索賠"},{"start":5637.426,"end":5663.714,"text":"那個軍購挖架書的合約為定型化的契約沒有辦法經過協商為單一國家的修訂作為適當改善合約不利我國的這個情形建議可採 漸進方式來強化整個軍購案源頭的管理針對這些老舊啦 效能不符合的現代這些作戰需求的武器裝備"},{"start":5665.394,"end":5677.3,"text":"審慎評估其繼續來維護的必要性以降低軍購支出與國防預算之比重以上這些文章摘要內容為維護我國權益我國防部"},{"start":5680.141,"end":5699.521,"text":"檢要說明美方軍購公補不符我方的索賠情況以及要如何來扭轉美國軍購發價輸合約不利我國的這個情況部長您有沒有什麼看法所以委員的意思是說我們軍購案都不要做不是"},{"start":5700.615,"end":5725.68,"text":"我是說你這個合約只有當方向他們講的算我們去要求而且他就是跟你延宕你也沒有辦法做任何的要求我想如果說委員覺得說我們不能夠進行軍購案那要採商購的話那剛剛也有委員提到說商購的部分我們又按照國民黨的提案又不同意我們進行任何的商購"},{"start":5726.24,"end":5749.474,"text":"你不要讓他扭轉,我意思就是說你們在訂合約的時候,你們本來就應該要跟人家談好啊。鮑偉我們要澄清一件事情,發架書它不是一個合約,發架書它是一個安全承諾文件,那個議約的合約的部分是每政府跟廠商,它才會訂合約,這是第一點。第二點,我們也不是什麼都不能做,"},{"start":5750.526,"end":5765.306,"text":"我們針對美方執行軍購案如果他在管理上面有瑕疵我們可以要求他換掉專案辦公室的全體成員是真非但就是這樣的例子那如果他是因為產線產量不足那"},{"start":5766.087,"end":5789.658,"text":"需要更多的人工那我們也會要求他們把人數增加目前F16V不要改動它可以加速的原因就是我們在從前年開始就要求落馬必須要增加產線的人力那它也增加了兩倍的人力同時採取兩班連續趕工我們才有現在的成果所以並不是什麼都不能做我是希望說你這些要"},{"start":5791.818,"end":5814.823,"text":"這個軍購的這些東西我們一定要站住立場不是他們講什麼我們就怎麼配合完全沒有自己的這個定見跟看法因為我們這些委員我們是代表人民來監督政府當然你付了那麼多的錢我們要是立場站不住又讓人家為所欲為你說我們這些委員算什麼"},{"start":5815.663,"end":5834.306,"text":"對不對我們是代表人民來監督政府當然你所跟人家制定的不管合約啦不管任何啦一定要有立場嘛不然不能讓人家為所欲為嘛他講什麼我們都任何都不行去跟他做任何的爭辯哪有那回事全世界也沒有這樣的合約啊"},{"start":5835.174,"end":5860.193,"text":"我想再次跟委員說明,我想軍購就是一個政府對政府的行為那你們該要求還是要要求啊對,我們當然,剛剛詹貴士已經說明了,像他舉了這個F16的例子像他舉了剛剛說的刺針飛彈的這些例子都說明我們這個在專案執行的這些期間我們都會互相綿密的溝通,並且提出要求我是希望你們還是要有立場啦,謝謝"},{"start":5861.604,"end":5865.599,"text":"好謝謝我們接下來是羅明財委員"},{"start":5873.349,"end":5901.643,"text":"主席客人、處列席官員大家好主席客人請顧部長請顧部長以及審計部的陳廷長陳政部的阮次長請財安部部長你好我想國防保護我們的安全沒有人反對截至目前為止有誰反對"},{"start":5902.83,"end":5914.848,"text":"你說我們不要買軍購的有沒有哪一個委員說反對我想我們"},{"start":5916.389,"end":5936.277,"text":"希望委員能夠支持我們現在所提出的願板我們這個願板除了有軍購、商購跟委制項目這三個對我們整個建軍備戰的整體的規劃是非常重要是,部長我覺得這是很嚴肅的議題所以大家要很嚴肅的心情那希望"},{"start":5937.304,"end":5956.31,"text":"得到一個最好的答案這次一共是1.25兆我就想請教一下部長是不是1.25兆一毛都不可以少站在國安部的立場我們很希望委員能夠支持我們這個經過這麼久的時間所規劃的一個"},{"start":5960.197,"end":5975.906,"text":"特別預算的一個來強化我們整體這個防衛任性跟不對稱戰力的一個暗項我們當然站在國防部立場還是希望我也能夠給充分的支持是,我們都支持啊可是部長你剛剛講說1.25兆那你敢說你講1.25兆一定都對嗎?"},{"start":5983.664,"end":6010.493,"text":"1.25兆是一個上限上限的意思會再增加還是會減少不能夠超過上限那我們在條例通過以後我們還要提出預算書預算書的每一個案項還要經過這個委員會的審查還要經過這個大院的通過所以這個預算相關個別的預算還要等到條例通過以後每一項每一項大家再來逐步檢討"},{"start":6011.775,"end":6036.527,"text":"所以你的意思是說1.25兆就夠了?如果您就問我,我不認為,我當然不認為1.25兆是夠我們剛剛在報告裡面也提到了我們持續的這個新增的案項還有很多包括了這個華社、天津公司等等的這些案我們並沒有把它全數擺出特別預算但是我們也不可能"},{"start":6038.408,"end":6057.779,"text":"毫無限制的去全部把它擺到特別預算我想剛剛都有提到了我們要考慮到這個我們有考慮到這個總量的相關的財政紀律法以及公共財務法相關的規範所以我們提出的這個特別預算我們就是打算應該是說資源其中"},{"start":6059.228,"end":6083.253,"text":"規模穩定的情況之下來達到我們想要的一個這樣不對稱戰力跟防衛任性的提升當然建軍備戰是持續性的工作不會是所以你剛剛的說法是上限是1.25兆對不對對然後具體的項目還要再送到大院來委員會來申請我那一天跟卓院長講的時候"},{"start":6084.713,"end":6107.483,"text":"他說委員那我們也可以1.25兆加N啊我的天啊聽到無所謂那我的意思是說民眾為了安全的問題大家都會支持啊我記得委員那天您跟左院長對話您是說1.25兆不夠那所以院長才會回說那你也可以再把1.25兆加N他是一個回應委員您的說法"},{"start":6112.065,"end":6121.894,"text":"那我們這邊提出來當然是1.25兆因為在顧及一定的我們的整個財政紀律法跟公共債務法相關的規範所以你看看那麼嚴肅的議題結果我講1.25兆"},{"start":6128.479,"end":6154.591,"text":"左院長說你也可以提1.25兆加N像問題不是我提啊而是我們信賴你們的專業相信你們能提出一些可以有效來至少保護台灣安全的一個方法就你說你可以再提那我提的意思就是說那1.25兆可以不可以買到台灣的安全或者"},{"start":6155.595,"end":6171.151,"text":"乾脆一句話,你問美國,究竟要多少兆?那我們會覺得啊,你跟我講多少兆,我們也要回復美國啊,好大力賣兆啊台灣有困難的時候,你就停到底啊,這樣也可以來談啊"},{"start":6172.691,"end":6192.414,"text":"可是到底有沒有這樣做我們通通不知道我們不斷的強化累積性的強化我們的可視戰力使共軍不敢犯台這個的目標那我們的手段不會只限於我們的特別預算也要包括"},{"start":6192.934,"end":6211.1,"text":"我們的公務預算那這兩個是會有相乘的一個效果我們希望委員能夠支持好 謝謝我們一直都是支持的態度但是嚴格的審查因為台灣的財庫不是無底洞我等一下要問一下次長次長我們現在委員好"},{"start":6216.28,"end":6242.59,"text":"我們的負債的餘額是多少我們現在的負債餘額如果是用預算數來算的話是6.8兆這個再加上去又是1兆多實際上的餘額是5.8兆那到底這個事情是怎麼樣來的為什麼5年前不需要10年前也沒有說台灣馬上要戰爭啊為什麼搞得好像好像馬上就戰爭了可是真的會戰爭嗎來我們請一下"},{"start":6245.559,"end":6264.316,"text":"軍事情報局的李執行長我們之前感到很惶恐啊是說聽說要打仗啦共軍要犯台請問共軍最新的情報會不會犯台委員報告我想我們"},{"start":6271.584,"end":6291.132,"text":"一定要料敵從寬我們不會去說他一定會犯台或不會犯台我們的國軍的目標就是不斷的累積我們的戰力來達到一個嚇阻的效果那事實上這樣子的一個嚇阻或者拒止的這個戰略"},{"start":6292.692,"end":6319.282,"text":"美國也是放在他的這個NAS國家安全戰略裡面那我們整個第一島鏈的國家也都在增加國防預算目標也就是在建立這樣一個集體嚇阻的能量讓共軍不會覺得哪一天是適合的日子來進行犯台加強我們自己本身的戰力加強我們自己的實力部長我要請你要小心一點我最後請審計部"},{"start":6323.13,"end":6332.302,"text":"陳廳長委員好陳廳長過去三五十年以來軍購的部分有沒有出現"},{"start":6334.025,"end":6336.588,"text":"我們這個一兆多最後會不會流到美國的國庫"},{"start":6356.067,"end":6380.119,"text":"還是留到別的口袋裡面按照現在我們的錢會先匯到他的FRB裡面然後如果要提領給廠商到Trust Fund我想這個基本上是不會過去拉法院案錢流到哪邊去拉法院案是商購啊 他不是軍售商購 這次有商購啊目前商購的話是國內或是偽裝就可能要錢目前我還沒有看到所以部長你能不能保證說這些錢不會出問題"},{"start":6383.946,"end":6400.095,"text":"我們官部會秉持最嚴謹的立場將一分英豪都花在一個我們的刀口上為什麼以前有中跑失黨的事情出現我想跟委員報告軍購案的這個部分剛剛有提到"},{"start":6401.796,"end":6413.682,"text":"這個政府對政府那FRB是我們在美國聯邦準備銀行設的戶頭那個錢還是屬於我們的那美國會按照他的進度的要求會再放到一個Trust Fund裡面去"},{"start":6414.226,"end":6436.644,"text":"那這個程序可能大家不是很理解這個細部流程那商客的部分我想我們透過相關的這些集合的這個程序不管是採購法不管是相關的這些審計制度都會進行嚴格的一個把關那請問趙雅萍中將你認不認識他就在這裡那你相不相信他"},{"start":6443.237,"end":6466.423,"text":"我想趙中將是一個非常嚴謹的一個將領我想他會就他的採購室的職責做好他應盡的工作那你們所有相關人也要把事情做好啊沒有出問題啊我們當然會努力好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請李昆城委員"},{"start":6479.986,"end":6483.009,"text":"謝謝主席我們請顧部長請顧部長是 李維來 部長好 辛苦了齁這個我聽到很多在野黨的委員也說支持國防"},{"start":6495.816,"end":6520.561,"text":"支持這個國防的預算沒有要擋但是要嚴審那我也希望說這個軍工特別條例好不容易在程序委員會被擋了十多次之後終於有機會來到我們這個國防財政聯席委員會來做審查那如果真的支持國防我也希望說1.25兆的預算能夠順利讓它通過啦我們今年的國防預算是9495億嘛對不對"},{"start":6524.078,"end":6552.009,"text":"2025年的國防預算這個事其實是預估我們現在的一個特別預算可能在我們年度國防預算有關9495億的部分是我們用NATO的算法包含了國防部編列跟海巡組跟輔導會也包含了年度公務預算跟基金預算以及特別預算的總和好那你知道說中國在2026年的國防預算有多少嗎"},{"start":6553.71,"end":6576.723,"text":"我們的了解是應該折合台幣應該是8.88.8兆左右8.8兆左右這個差距非常大但是我們不是要跟他比這個國防預算誰比較多因為我們今天要討論就是一個不對稱作戰的一個特別軍購的一個計畫對不對那我看到這個在野黨不論是民眾黨或是國民黨的版本"},{"start":6577.925,"end":6595.135,"text":"綁手綁腳的其實如果通過了這個在野黨的這個條例的話最高興的是老共最高興的是老共你看嘛我們台灣支隊沒有了飛鴻供應鏈沒有了我們的AI的這個指管系統沒有了我們的保訓培訓我們的這一個這個"},{"start":6600.057,"end":6620.547,"text":"這個配備的系統也沒有了 還有呢 未來的這些情況呢 這會受到影響那我先從兩個點來講吼 無人機的部分這無人機的部分的話 看報告吼 這個打算要籌購20萬餘價的這個各類型的無人機那這大概是 也是分8年嗎 還是分幾年"},{"start":6621.977,"end":6647.847,"text":"我們現在預計應該是分八包委員我們那個項目不是只有小型無人機所以它的執行年度各有不同原則上無人機的部分我們是希望在前六年的時候無人艇的部分也是一樣能夠在前六年的時候執行這二十萬架的分批招標跟分批製作六年的話這個時間拉的"},{"start":6649.588,"end":6673.957,"text":"因為你們有跟美方去談了,但是時間會不會拉得太長了?跟委員報告,現在就是我們執行年度,我們現在是八年的一個預算嘛,那看哪一年開始執行那重點是這樣子,就是說無人機的部分呢,我們基本上是採國內公開就是說它有不同的,包括這個我們現在已經有五型的無人機的這個部分,那這個是會開"},{"start":6675.157,"end":6693.4,"text":"公開招標的方式那我們也會考慮到迭代創新所以我們不會一次購足20萬架我們是分批來進行的那執行的年度我們再看看那無人機的預算在體育條例大概是多少無人機您說全部的預算對 就是無人機艇的這部分"},{"start":6694.113,"end":6718.166,"text":"因為無人機的部分就是我們未來這部分是採用這一個我們有軍購部分也有商購部分也有偽製部分嗎無人機的部分基本上除了那個攻擊型的那個仿專甲的無人機是有軍售的以外其他的部分的現在的五款是商購公開招標"},{"start":6719.446,"end":6745.02,"text":"以國內的由國內來產製那另外我們還有一些像瑞英二型的這種健身型的無人機是偽製請中科院來製所以中科院的預算也含在這一筆特別預算裡面瑞英二型有百如我們的特別預算還有攻擊的無人艇都是中科院的沒有無人艇的部分我們會公開招標國內產製的方式所以中科院就是有瑞英二型的無人機就對了"},{"start":6746.22,"end":6763.019,"text":"還有強攻的那個飛彈好 那就是我們這筆預算有含中科院的預算那含未來就是這個因為我們要這個有這個飛鴻供應鏈所以有這個國內的廠商來做就對了對 我們在那有含這個美國的這個跟美國的這個技術的合作嗎"},{"start":6763.787,"end":6786.2,"text":"對 我們那個個型的這樣的一個無人機最重要就是要排紅所以要排除這個紅色供應鏈那另外我們主要是要讓國內的這個產線能夠增加然後來強化我們的國防制度的能力那另外當然我們會跟這個我們的有盟國家來進行相關的技術合作跟技術轉移"},{"start":6787.136,"end":6804.436,"text":"都還在這裡面就對了我們在分批籌購的這個相關的無人機的採購計畫裡面不管是哪一種的無人機都會有考慮到國際上無人機發展的一個趨勢來進行必要的合作研發所以在政協黨的條例裡面都沒有了這部分"},{"start":6805.792,"end":6832.078,"text":"我們現在看到的大概民眾黨團應該是就已經公布就是說已經知會國會的那幾個案項然後國民黨團的部分應該也是指就知會國會的那個部分那我想還有其他很多的部分呢我們事實上在上一次的機密專報裡面有做過充分的說明所以就是在建立飛鴻公園那個部分我看起來是沒有了"},{"start":6835.222,"end":6860.998,"text":"因為無燃機的部分沒有的話那配用供應鏈這個觀念就沒有了好 那我再請教一下我們的這個C5ISR還有AIR這個輔助決策還有這個指管的系統那我看在在野黨的條例裡面也沒有了對 他們現在應該沒有考量到C5ISR的指管系統的這個部分"},{"start":6861.854,"end":6864.122,"text":"都沒有那這個的重要性在於哪裡勒"},{"start":6865.451,"end":6891.569,"text":"我想就如同現在螢幕上當然提出來當然是我們整個的一個大腦的一個建構我想CISR我們在我們的專案報告裡面已經有充分的說明不管是從我們的整體防攻跟黑暗防禦還有我們的聯合反登陸跟聯合國土防衛我們都需要CISR跟這個相關的AI輔助決策系統"},{"start":6896.071,"end":6923.901,"text":"那請問一下如果有這套系統的話我們的這個急殺鏈的時間可以縮短多久呢應該是說我們現行的這樣子的一個急殺鏈的一個建構透過這樣子的決策系統這個引進在那個當下的那個決策的時間會縮小所以我們在報告裡面也提到就是說"},{"start":6925.381,"end":6946.757,"text":"在這個為了因應新型態的話能夠有一個AI的運用的話再結合無人機的話我想我們可以擊殺鏈從數個小時縮短到數分鐘這樣子戰場上一分鐘都非常的重要更何況是說可以從這一個數小時縮短到數分鐘那所以這套系統大概要多久的時間來建立起來"},{"start":6953.976,"end":6983.091,"text":"包委員這個因為連進入預約的程序都沒有那這個時間要多長當然是在進入預約之後我們才有辦法跟相關城市的廠商來做確認那但是原則上我們希望能夠配合我們各式戰力形成的時間來完成這套系統因為我們買了這麼多武器那我們希望說有這套系統才不會這個各自為政有一個整體的一個圖像嘛應該是這樣子嘛"},{"start":6984.059,"end":7005.128,"text":"那我們看在野黨的這個條例裡面也沒有這個東西所以我就說綁手綁腳啊對 那因為這個問題我想有一些我們可能還需要私下再跟委員做一個充分的說明 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝李委員接下來我們請顏寬恒委員"},{"start":7014.229,"end":7016.976,"text":"好謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長我們請顧部長"},{"start":7029.16,"end":7050.675,"text":"今天各黨團討論的重點多多在這個總金額的高低我認為真正被低估的風險是匯率在重大對美採購案當中新台幣兌美元的匯率只要變動一塊錢實際上影響都數百億台幣都數百億所以這是直接衝擊到國防預算穩定性的一個結構性風險"},{"start":7052.355,"end":7077.275,"text":"那面對美國還有國際情勢的造成的一個匯率不確定性那國防部目前是否已經跟中央銀行還是財政部建立一套制度化且主動的匯率避險機制例如索匯或者是其他的金融工具還是說持續的採取事後補差的一個被動的做法請部長說明"},{"start":7081.004,"end":7107.872,"text":"委員好我是主席局局長有關我們對美軍購有關匯率的部分目前國防部是按照發價書以及65表相關付款期程時間到我們再去辦理相關的結匯目前我們是沒有辦法去做所謂的避險的一個作為所以還是依照過往一樣就是事後由預算來做一個補償的部分如果有匯出的話我們必須用預算來補償"},{"start":7109.252,"end":7136.544,"text":"沒有辦法更積極或者是一個做出一個主動性的一個避嫌措施沒辦法做目前我們官方部的部分沒辦法做這個那另外齁這個結餘款結餘款滯留在美國齁這個均售的FRB帳戶已經是多年來都這樣子啦那根據審計部過往的一個報告說這些躺在美國的錢高達數百億台幣甚至於有些專案他這個"},{"start":7138.591,"end":7158.796,"text":"裝備都已經退役了那帳還沒有結清要避免這一次採購案重蹈覆轍那是不是避免說變成美方的一個無息提款機當我們數百億的資金在FRB帳戶的時候這些錢剛剛部長也說了這些錢實際上是台灣掌管的是台灣擁有的"},{"start":7160.316,"end":7175.27,"text":"在FRB的帳戶裡面所產生的支息也歸我們喔是沒有錯但是我要提出的就是如果美方提出一項不在原規劃內不在原規劃內甚至不符合我方現階段需要採購的這樣子的一個採購案那"},{"start":7180.608,"end":7200.158,"text":"這樣對我國的一個國防自主權跟財政紀律是造成一個極大的挑戰我們原本計劃是不是說原本計劃要將捷運款繳回國庫那繳回國庫或者是投入其他急需的一個其他的項目那如果說被導向美方現在要清他們的庫存"},{"start":7201.502,"end":7217.736,"text":"指定或者是要求我們採購的不是在我們原規劃內的我們的軍購的一個武器部分那這樣子的話部長你是否會堅持說先繳回國庫再重新送立法審議的一個法制程序"},{"start":7219.377,"end":7238.368,"text":"我們結匯到美方的外匯會回來的兩種時機第一個就是所謂的他案子已經結束了他整個清算之後還有餘款我們叫做外匯的退匯餘款那第二個部分就剛剛布朗有提到的我們不管是在美國FRB銀行的支息我們也是全數都會結繳國庫這兩個款項全數結繳國庫"},{"start":7241.61,"end":7266.15,"text":"至於剛剛委員提到的是不是美方有另外額外需要我們再去買的那我們會按照我們的建案程序回來做個評估如果有需要我們會循建案程序完成計畫之後編列預算另外再去做所謂的結會不會從這些餘款裡面做一個所謂的流用 以上報告相關的這些預算都還是要經過大院的同意才有可能"},{"start":7267.88,"end":7276.01,"text":"對 所以我說我們當然支持就是說要強化我們的國防那支持必要的一個對外的採購對美的採購但是不要說"},{"start":7279.335,"end":7304.278,"text":"動不動就對監督者來戴帽子來扣上說一個不支持國防預算就是不支持國防但我們現在的問題不是說要不要買而是怎麼買買的有沒有制度有沒有底線如果匯率風險如果匯率風險沒有控管然後結一款都滯留在美國那交貨又一延再延"},{"start":7305.717,"end":7315.963,"text":"整套這樣的機制就是把所有的風險都留在台灣所以我們支持要強化台灣的國防但是主導權一定要在台灣這合理吧"},{"start":7317.449,"end":7335.232,"text":"這合理吧?我想剛剛已經說過了,軍購的相關程序已經是行之有年那我們放在FRB的帳戶的款項都還是我們的,算真的支息也是屬於我們的所以在FRB的帳戶嚴格來講不算是我們已經支付的款項"},{"start":7336.073,"end":7356.888,"text":"那我們會先都依照審計的單位的要求我們都會來匯到FRB的帳戶都會受到監管所以我想整個我們這邊的整個集合的程序也都相當嚴謹那美方他是因為政府對政府所以美方跟他的合約商也要有一個相關嚴謹的集合的程序"},{"start":7358.079,"end":7385.551,"text":"如果說像賴政府上台這一年多那兩岸高度緊張嘛台海局勢很危急美國政府理當就是要協防台海的安全那應該要依照跟軍方合約如期供應台灣防衛性武器才是保護台灣正確的具體做法但是我們實際上美國卻多次違反了我們的軍購合約延遲當初承諾台灣的武器交貨時間"},{"start":7387.257,"end":7400.79,"text":"那這種情況面對現在的高度緊張部長除了密切協調這四個字我們還有什麼更強硬的能夠確保這一次軍購案美國未來能夠如期的旅行合約"},{"start":7401.896,"end":7417.974,"text":"每個軍購案成立之後我們都會成立專案辦公室那專案辦公室會有美方跟我們的人員一起我們也會派聯絡人過去那我們會掌握相關的進度那有任何的這個問題我們透過專案辦公室會跟美方反映那我們這邊國防部本身也會向美方反映"},{"start":7418.474,"end":7443.566,"text":"然後雙方來透過來努力來解決那所以剛剛詹貴士事實上也提到像F6V就因為這樣子我們現在兩班制他們不斷的一個進行加速生產所以現在在產線的部分已經有50連同在市費的部分已經有59家所以這個都是說我們透過跟美方的政府這些政府之間的一個協調都能夠獲取一定的這個"},{"start":7445.127,"end":7471.052,"text":"獲得到一定的 獲知一定的這個改善那這一次的我們的特別預算的軍購是不是也有可能會像F16V這樣的情況發生我們會 當然就是希望就是說像我們之前希望能夠發家族授權我們在預算還沒通過之前先行簽署就是希望不要產生延檔那之後又成立資產公司那我們會透過跟他們密切協調"},{"start":7473.809,"end":7478.411,"text":"如果假設又跟F16V一樣的情況發生我們國防部有什麼因應的措施"},{"start":7479.999,"end":7507.836,"text":"剛剛也已經講了,因為有這些專案的辦公室所以我們會還是對政府催促,不斷的開會催促沒有,他們一定會提出一個相對應的解放我想美方都不願意看到對我們的交易的其成有所延宕因為美方最大的核心利益還是要強化我們台灣自我還原的能力我想這個是台灣關係法以及六項保證裡面都有提到的事項"},{"start":7509.532,"end":7537.865,"text":"好的好謝謝謝謝謝謝營委員接下來我們請林楚英委員謝謝主席主席有請顧部長那麼其他如果遇到題目有相關需要協助詢問的這些官員再請你們自己上台來謝謝請顧部長"},{"start":7541.693,"end":7565.038,"text":"是 林委好 部長早安我想其實今天不論如何我們可以進入到國防特別預算的條例的審查也算是往前邁進了一步那麼既然是有關於特別條例的審查我們就知道從剛剛報告的時候就可以知道有包括顧部長行政院所提出來的版本還有國民黨跟民眾黨都有版本那麼很開心至少我們聽到的是在野黨也都認為他們不擋軍購"},{"start":7567.458,"end":7583.172,"text":"只是希望能夠進行嚴格的審查作為立法委員我們同樣的也認為錢要花在刀口上只是啊很怕他們所提出來的所謂軍購特別條例的這樣的一個案子只是"},{"start":7583.632,"end":7607.646,"text":"明為支持國防預算實為設下陷阱讓我們的軍購被綁死甚至於呢看得到吃不到為什麼我這樣講我仔細的看了政院版本也就是國防部提出的跟國民黨跟民眾黨的版本我簡單的就來提出這三個我認為的妙物我也請部長來為我們來解析一下首先第一個當然就是剛剛"},{"start":7610.109,"end":7613.421,"text":"現任的財政委員就是國民黨的"},{"start":7615.388,"end":7642.42,"text":"這個顏匡衡委員有特別提到了有關於就是我們對美元的部分沒錯過去本席也在國防外交委員會之前也是在財政委員像這樣的軍購版本民眾黨把型號數量都寫死如果是這樣的情況底下一旦出現了匯率的變動又一旦出現了價格上面的波動我們也知道如果上個會期有在國防外交委員會就會知道我們有一個列銷專案"},{"start":7644.602,"end":7654.05,"text":"當時我們所購的編列的預算的價格跟後來美國他有做一些調整很多人都不知道所謂的發價書不是報價單他比較像是一個在"},{"start":7659.194,"end":7674.915,"text":"軍購上面有意願的國家喊加一我把它解釋為團購單啦就是說跟著一起買確定了數量金額跟參與的國家之後美國才會跟廠商來進行所謂"},{"start":7676.089,"end":7702.789,"text":"了解價格跟需求所以像這種把型號價格寫預算都寫死的狀況之下真的有辦法執行嗎如果沒有辦法執行的時候他就就是一個價錢框在那裡便宜了不能買所以我們要貴一點嗎預算就框在那裡數量我們後來決定買不到或者是想要多買也不行所以我要提出來的是如果"},{"start":7703.83,"end":7728.068,"text":"現在按照民眾黨的版本把這樣的內容都寫死了會造成什麼樣的狀況?報言我們還是建議那個我們不論是什麼樣的版本能夠按照我們的計劃預算制度跟我們的軍購流程那軍購的部分事實上那涉及到的是一定會進入到議約程序之後才能夠去確認說那個項鍊是什麼那當然這個的衝擊就是"},{"start":7731.511,"end":7747.863,"text":"比如說像我們過去陸軍買Apache H64D Block 2然後當它進入預約的時候變成Block 3然後等到實際原因是什麼是因為有一定的時間新的機型出來了對不對對你就得重修所有的條文"},{"start":7748.083,"end":7769.612,"text":"沒錯 那言下之意就是如果現在就講定了未來進入議約程序有新的機種出來我們買還是不買我們要買舊的嗎到時候在野黨又講說有新的不買你們為什麼不買好 第二個因為時間有限把整個授權的時間一年一千而且甚至於改成還需要修法我想在野黨的版本甚至於國民黨都說2028年就要執行完畢喔那麼說實話"},{"start":7775.31,"end":7788.03,"text":"我們是所謂賣方市場在整個軍購的過程當中包括連現在我們都還沒有進入所謂的預約期的狀況底下如果這樣切碎又會造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":7789.286,"end":7813.019,"text":"是不是到時候買不到我們所有的軍售案跟美方簽署發價書的時候一定是期程就已經確定了好我就問發價書等不等於估價單等不等於銷售單那它的意義上又是什麼因為我相信在場很多委員可能都還搞不清楚啊"},{"start":7815.468,"end":7832.857,"text":"發價書實際上真正的作用它是一個書面的美國對我們的安全承諾也是透過這個安全承諾表達它可以供授給我們的項量跟概括金額那這個部分在後續都必須要經過預約才能夠確定所有的項目"},{"start":7834.016,"end":7854.69,"text":"所以很清楚嘛如果這種一年一千或者甚至於把年限就放在現在已經是2026年的三月中了已經三月底了如果這樣的期程依照國民黨的版本的話2028年來得及完成嗎那如果來不及美方不會同意這種做法為什麼"},{"start":7856.417,"end":7873.857,"text":"因為他一個發價書簽署之後他就是齊成跟蓋孤金額還有項量在我們雙方議談完之後做一個確認他不會讓你一份發價書去做好幾次的這個談判好我們現場副主記長是不是在現場"},{"start":7878.649,"end":7897.238,"text":"好 副主委長有請因為這個除了國防部之外因為跟預算執行有關國民黨的第七條特別提到了那就是如果執行這個所謂的特別條例沒有完成如果有不法的話要送監察院但是我想請問的是我剛剛一直強調這是賣方市場包括美國它有它一定的產製的時間跟期程跟廠商的問題如果像這樣要來究責的話"},{"start":7907.142,"end":7926.069,"text":"那這個到底責任是在我們國防部的官員執行的官員還是在美方我們是要把美國美方的軍人抓來這裡審判嗎還是把美國的廠商抓來這裡來來來來罰則你有看到第七條嗎國民黨第七條對所以基本上我們認為那個未來會是有自然難行之處"},{"start":7927.233,"end":7955.466,"text":"那如果是這樣的話你有沒有什麼建議應該要怎麼樣來處理基本上我想我們在預算執行的時候本來就有各種規範那所有的我們的這個行政院的這些公務員或者是軍人他都依照相關的規範在執行所以基本上不用特別在訂這樣的一個條文大家都會依照相關的規範去"},{"start":7956.747,"end":7977.631,"text":"做執行好 但是本席擔憂的就是部長如果真是如此的話依照我們當然為什麼我們全力支持行政院的版本那是一個在為台灣設立所謂台灣之盾的情況底下的完全的整備所以包括年限 包括金額 包括方向特別條例基本上它不是一個特別預算有特別條例才會變特別預算"},{"start":7980.572,"end":8001.046,"text":"但是如果說如同現在第七條所規定的甚至於是讓這些負責採購的公務員都擔憂自己要送監察院要考核這個還沒有做事就要先安上一個罪名我想就像我說的為什麼我舉出三大荒謬之處是看得到吃不到可能也做不到我想如果要講這個逐年審查如果沒有辦法能夠如期審訊"},{"start":8011.201,"end":8024.841,"text":"履約或者預算有可能在審查的過程遭刪減凍結那麼在付款的這個高度不確定的風險下我們就會衍生我們的違約跟廠商不願意如期交裝的一個"},{"start":8025.877,"end":8047.869,"text":"然後也可能需要支付額外的軍購裝備延遲的起運存款的一些費用等等所以逐年進入交裝跟付款的高峰期的階段,這種情況會更為嚴峻那會無法依照計畫來形成戰力,那對整個建築備戰的工作當然就產生"},{"start":8049.089,"end":8064.842,"text":"非常嚴重不利的影響好 本席是特別研讀了三個版本所以T1針對這些部分我相信後面還有一些其他在野黨的委員會諮詢他可能也會來回應或回覆但是這是本席看到的我認為既然可以進入討論那就是一個好的開始"},{"start":8065.763,"end":8083.094,"text":"只是我還是要再次強調特別條例不是編預算書我幫這個國軍人才招募中心打個廣告如果這麼想編預算歡迎加入國軍的行列你們就可以一起來協助編國防預算但我還是強調立法院不是編預算立法院在這裡是預算審查跟條例的審查謝謝謝謝林委員接下來我們請陳永康委員"},{"start":8100.558,"end":8122.164,"text":"那部長您先喝口水休息一下好主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":8137.192,"end":8162.158,"text":"今天的國防部的這份報告資料一共14頁內容確實非常多但是是文字敘述沒有圖沒有表可能就國防部的專業人士來看他腦筋的邏輯是非常清晰的但是在在場不同領域的問政的立法委員背景不同他的解讀可能會有一些落差所以我用很簡短的時間把今天這個"},{"start":8164.005,"end":8192.268,"text":"整個的狀況啊先把它國防部編列特別預算本質現況目標方法限制因素手段預期把它排列出來那有待釐清的東西像辦案的內容第九頁第十一頁第十二頁這些東西我不足條列這個希望會後啊各部會的負責的這個司長次長啊我們再做溝通"},{"start":8194.039,"end":8215.439,"text":"那么过去啊徐司检副部长也讲过了说都没有来赴委没有机会前面有很多时间可以沟通啊不能到二月过完年以后才来所以这些东西我们都在做沟通无人机的东西啊我们是绝对支持但是有一个很严肃的问题大家都没有去touch乌克兰呢"},{"start":8216.598,"end":8240.158,"text":"俄乌跟这个美国跟伊朗完全状况不能套到台湾乌克兰的面积是台湾的16.7倍全部是地面作战如果没有starlink美方不提供新链的话乌克兰的无人机一架都不能用那以色列跟伊朗的状况伊朗的面积是台湾的45倍因为中共提供北斗"},{"start":8240.939,"end":8261.398,"text":"我们这两个都没有也就是说我们无人机里面的除了军售大无人机以及中科院自制的无人机外其他属于消耗型的小型无人机到暂时没有指挥频道这个希望我们国防部的同仁跟厂商要加强把这个叙述清楚消耗型没有关系自毁也可以"},{"start":8262.139,"end":8278.941,"text":"但是ROE操作手什么等级是什么样的通讯传回来的画面都没有提我们都是谈载台非红供应链里面有好几项是中科院现在在聚焦努力在做的但是现在还并不能够完成支持你的通讯频道"},{"start":8283.578,"end":8298.488,"text":"那另外就是不斷電了這是還有一個很重要的我們是希望在國軍的指揮中心下面的緊急發電機能夠雖然都是根據我們政府的消防安全法規但是你地下室的儲油槽是可以修改的"},{"start":8299.068,"end":8314.526,"text":"你的發電機要冷卻的所以我們未來也甚至建議這個內政部的消防安全允許在重要的超高大樓醫院下面增加它的儲油儲水量以應暫時的需要因為斷電以後不只是"},{"start":8315.467,"end":8340.16,"text":"政府的機構它的供電能力失電沒有了24小時以後它就停電了那不是沒有油是因為限制因素那也可以儲水去冷卻發電機這些都可以努力的這都可以精進的那根據在今天條例裡面寫出一些問題我把它列出藍色的做回應這個會後大家我們可以進一步討論都是有溝通的餘地"},{"start":8341.089,"end":8370.307,"text":"绝对是支持国防但是绝对不是一个包括式的支持或不支持本席过去在国军服务啊也到立法院来回答绝对不是像我们有的委员讲yes or no不是是跟不是的这张图啊我希望我们战规师了解这是美军过去做的整个的军售作业流程全部在这里面你用文字叙述哪一个不是在政府官员服务的人能够了解"},{"start":8371.212,"end":8398.653,"text":"所以你的整个的尤其是右下角这个图哪个地方要多少时间如果重新回来流露要多少全在这里面用图像的解释远比用文字叙述要容易因为这个是专业你们清楚可是听的人不见得了解这个提供参考这个就是去年的所有41个国家所有的军售全部列出来了"},{"start":8400.114,"end":8412.612,"text":"那这里面你就可以去比较啊有没有相同重复的会不会影响到我们以后的这个是2月26号美国国务院公布的啊所有的我们的项目全在上面"},{"start":8415.578,"end":8441.671,"text":"这个是2026目前已经军售跟美国签了发价书的我们还没签但是可以但并不表示我们就摆不进去了有什么冲击2025年的军售有41个国家那现在这里面列了14项所以我们需要的东西跟其他国家会不会有时效的冲击或者是排序的问题那个后面可以再谈"},{"start":8444.014,"end":8470.548,"text":"這個是我們整個軍售作業作業流程我希望大家在這個上面去做檢討精進可能這個圖還不夠理想沒有大家講得清楚但是看了你會知道我哪一段誤解了所以之前我們都是講看發價書其實我們有一個一個詢價的LOR for P&A或者是這個怎麼講呢這是發價書的要求LOR for LOA對這個上面有寫出來"},{"start":8471.482,"end":8498.97,"text":"那这个是一个流路我提供这张图给部里参考你觉得哪里不理想不对你更正但是有个framework有个框架这样子对民间的老百姓对在立法院的同仁有了解军购是一个集合名词就美方的立场来讲包括军售商售军售融资以及总统特别法案那再加上我们国内的合作谈到未来的挑战我特别要提提供建议"},{"start":8500.38,"end":8521.703,"text":"韌性不止於消耗的彈藥這是消耗不起的所以遠程打擊目標精準C5ISR要加T要加targeting要趕快精進我們現在就已經C4ISR那個5是cyber"},{"start":8522.441,"end":8535.324,"text":"那不要被干擾能够掌握对面的情势所以并不是谁去挡台湾之盾台湾之盾是一个很好的崇高理想但是这次铁穹也破了因为消耗不起"},{"start":8536.468,"end":8553.429,"text":"所以把对面模拟这个东西我想每年的汉光我们都在做但是实际上现在AI导入以后你做交换正反向模拟你可以拦截多少还要承受多少另外一个就是向大家说明如果台海冲突是全世界最大的灾难"},{"start":8554.21,"end":8573.832,"text":"所以川普講任內不會習大大說我有這個想法但是沒有agenda所以我們的想定裡面尤其是兩溪的灘頭絕對不是現在想像中的灘頭紅色海灘只剩下銀籍的這種機率是不大的你真正的要是保持著電網不斷外面的人員來進來這個"},{"start":8576.957,"end":8588.799,"text":"整個對這個頻道啊通訊啊這個是最重要的我只講到這邊做這做一個給各位做一個參考部長您指教我是不是請鐘哥先簡單回應一下就"},{"start":8590.475,"end":8610.715,"text":"委員我以中科院的身份跟您報告一下就委員剛剛有講到無人載具發展的問題其實無人載具它真正重要的是軟體去定義硬體也只有用軟體定義硬體我們才能夠做到快速的迭代更新我們才能夠在GPS在電子干擾的狀況下能夠靠著自主化的軟體持續去執行任務為什麼我們需要"},{"start":8611.736,"end":8639.244,"text":"編列特別預算就是當我們在跟國外的廠家去談軟體授權或者是共同發展的時候一次性編組一筆預算我才能夠在這個軟體的裡面智慧財產佔比佔最高也就智慧財產能夠百分之百屬於我們的我們才能夠透過軟體定義去持續讓我的無人載具去迭代更新這個就是中科院要完全擔任主合約商"},{"start":8640.578,"end":8662.229,"text":"如果是國內的合約商跟你是平起平坐的對談第一個要跟美國的廠商談美國廠商要先通過ITAT審查所以有些技術東西不見得能轉移第二個我們國內的廠商要接受美國的叫做什麼核實調查DD我們國內廠商都沒有所以要中科院代表出面以上提出建議"},{"start":8663.407,"end":8672.592,"text":"好 謝謝委員謝謝陳永康委員那接下來我們有請羅美玲委員那待會王玉川委員咨詢完畢後休息五分鐘謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長羅委員好"},{"start":8689.893,"end":8707.243,"text":"部長 早安 辛苦了真的很不容易 我們國防特別條例在程序委員會被攬擺前前後後擋了九次今天終於在陳冠廷召委的這個安排之下在我們國防外交委員會來進行這個審查"},{"start":8709.844,"end":8733.942,"text":"那除了這個院版國中兩黨其實也提出了自己的版本可是我們單單從他們的這個條例的這個名稱來看其實呢跟這個行政院的國防特別條例呢其實有很嚴重的這個認知的落差那院版的這個法案名稱是強化防衛任性及不對稱戰略計畫採購特別條例"},{"start":8736.584,"end":8763.202,"text":"草案最主要的內容是要建構多重的這個防衛系統那國防部呢今天的這個報告呢其實講得非常的清楚那絕對不是只有對美軍購可是我們看看國民黨的版本他的這個法案的名稱是強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案很明顯的他這個呢他的條例呢只有對美軍購"},{"start":8766.204,"end":8787.389,"text":"美方智慧國會的這個項目那剛剛呢林楚英委員剛剛也講得很清楚不單單民眾黨把這個我們想要購買的這個項目啦或者是數目啦或者是金額把它這個放到這個法律條文裡面其實國民黨的"},{"start":8789.329,"end":8812.017,"text":"版本也是一樣他把這個項目金額是列在立法說明那我想跟國眾兩黨特別要強調的是國防特別條例它是法律案不是預算案它是法律案不是預算案所以我們現在這種"},{"start":8815.098,"end":8832.747,"text":"國眾兩黨的荒腔走板的這個版本說實在的我想真的是讓大家是非常的這個搖頭那剛剛林楚映委員也提到了把這個項目這個寫死了把金額寫死了會造成怎麼樣的一個結果國防部剛剛"},{"start":8834.869,"end":8859.711,"text":"已經有說明清楚了也許我們會遇到匯率變動的問題也許我們所買的這武器有升級的這個問題可能會跟裡面的內容跟原來的內容會不相符合所以我是覺得啦國中兩黨雖然說有提出自己的版本可是我們再怎麼看也就是用變相的這個方式來卡這個特別條例因為"},{"start":8860.712,"end":8875.324,"text":"我們部長剛剛也提了我們國防部也提了如果按照國中兩種的這種方式來通過的話真的是很難執行我在想這個部分真的是很需要做功課"},{"start":8876.004,"end":8891.497,"text":"那剛剛呢 我們陳永康委員他有特別提到就是說哎呀 你們不能全部都是按照發價輸來呀還有應該怎麼樣怎麼樣可是我們聽完之後在底下就覺得很好笑了國民黨的版本第五條"},{"start":8893.198,"end":8906.593,"text":"第一項然後一到八款全部都是按照這個發價書來嘛民眾黨的第四條第一項一到六款全部都是按照發價書來嘛"},{"start":8908.195,"end":8935.877,"text":"所以居然國民黨本身就已經有一個這方面的專業可是看起來這個版本是不專業的人士所建造所建設的所以這個部分呢我是真的覺得非常的遺憾因為禮拜三禮拜四我們就要進入逐條選查像這樣子的版本我們只要不曉得要怎麼來做因為我們一定要有國防特別條例先要有法律案後面才會有國防特別"},{"start":8937.159,"end":8951.257,"text":"預算的這個條例出來後面才是要選這個預算所以我們在想他們這種這種方式到底要怎麼來怎麼來進行那再來因為前面這部分呢前面委員都已經有提出來"},{"start":8951.918,"end":8966.356,"text":"國防部也提出了一些至愛難行的這個看法可是再來我還是要提到這個整個結構的這個條例到底有沒有違憲因為部長您是法律人根據大法官曾經在釋字第391號解釋中指出"},{"start":8969.179,"end":8987.617,"text":"法律案無論關係院或立法委員皆有提案權可是預算案呢只許行政院提出那例外憲法第70條規定立法院對行政院所提預算不得為增加支出之提議所以我想請問我想請問像這種版本到底有沒有違憲"},{"start":8988.978,"end":9009.338,"text":"這次國中兩黨各自都提出民生不同內容跟政院版本差異很大的這個特別所謂的特別條例還是特別預算都已經在混淆當中了他們有點耍耍搞不清楚法律案跟預算案的不同那像這個的話就是由立法部門主導支出是不是有違反憲法請問部長"},{"start":9011.194,"end":9021.546,"text":"我想來五分幾點跟委員報告第一點就是剛剛其實陳永康委員在秀出那個整個作業的程序事實上已經提出來就是說我們是"},{"start":9022.759,"end":9044.04,"text":"不是會等到發價書來了以後才有可能去進行所謂的特別條例的通過然後再進行預算的審查我想這一個第一個要先澄清就是說陳永康委員市長已經整個指出整個軍購的一個程序的部分等到發價書草案過來才要進行特別條例我想這個這個是不對的"},{"start":9044.76,"end":9072.621,"text":"這個是沒有辦法讓整個建案程序能夠來做這是第一點第二點就是說有關這個一照2500億因為有一直在提到所謂的空白授權的問題那事實上剛剛委員也提出來就是說條例通過之後條例通過之後我們還要在預算案要提出來那預算案每一個預算案大會審這個大院就是委員會審查大院審查以後如果不同意這一個預算案的話"},{"start":9073.981,"end":9100.712,"text":"這個預算就會被拿掉所以他是要等到條例通過以後才會有預算案的問題那第三個就是說按照預算法的83條的規定行政院是可以在年度總預算外提出特別預算所以事實上在這個預算法的83條已經有相關的規定是行政院可以提出特別預算案立法院不行嘛對不對他在預算法的83條明確的表明是行政院"},{"start":9101.823,"end":9119.656,"text":"只有行政院可以提出對所以整個這個結構明天禮拜三禮拜四我們要審的部分你看他這個尤其是民眾黨的版本更是把這個法律案呢把它預算案化像這種版本其實本來就是違憲的嘛我們如何審呢我們當然並不希望說有所謂因為"},{"start":9127.796,"end":9148.348,"text":"特別預算的部分因為這個條例本身就是要為了要特別預算所以當然會有涉及到說法律案本身是就為了要提出特別預算那這樣的話我剛剛已經提出來了就預算法的83條是行政院可以提出特別預算OK好時間的關係部長各位同仁"},{"start":9149.288,"end":9149.428,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":9179.989,"end":9204.145,"text":"三檢都沒有問題可是呢自己提出的版本卻是讓大家覺得荒腔走板然後我是覺得我們身為立法委員對於如何立法應該要非常的清楚在此呢再次的請求我們在野黨禮拜三禮拜四我們以專業的態度來審查國防特別預算好 以上謝謝"},{"start":9205.219,"end":9222.795,"text":"好 謝偉謝謝羅委員 接下來我們請王安祥委員謝謝主席 有請部長有請部長"},{"start":9234.252,"end":9257.771,"text":"部長辛苦了我們今天站在這邊是為了審條例不是審預算所以現在我們要審的是法律案而不是預算案其實前面剛剛很多委員都提出很多對美軍購的程序所以我們這邊也針對軍購的程序我們特別讓大家能夠了解我們來跟大家做說明一下其實我們現在看到LOA常常都說這個發出來"},{"start":9259.392,"end":9283.891,"text":"可是前面其實很多程序 剛剛其實很多委員都講了包括這個LR 還有兩個程序大家現在很多對那個Price P&A跟那個是不是Available其實很有意見其實在這個大家可以看到那個前面的程序裡面其實都有相關的一個程序也就是說國防部如果在完成那個P&A大概Price跟Available能夠確定之後就會有一個規劃書了"},{"start":9285.012,"end":9300.036,"text":"那我21號來了以後其實我非常重視這種所謂的溝通很多的部會來我說溝通那我覺得是不是應該從規劃書那個地方也許就可以來跟我們立法院立法委員來做一些溝通部長您覺得呢"},{"start":9303.082,"end":9327.782,"text":"LOA for PMA就是我們的一個確立要跟美方進行初步溝通的一個需求性所以就告訴他們我們的request嘛跟他說我們的需求是什麼之後我們獲得初步的一個有關交易期程報價的同意以後我們會進入一個最後的一個建案程序這個建案程序完了之後我們還要報行政院"},{"start":9328.962,"end":9348.717,"text":"對 不是說看到 我們每次看到都是LOA本黨也是提出了很多預先授權的部分可是我來了以後 發現一直看到都是LOA都已經看到發架書了要架書都沒有 幾乎我們很多事情都不知道所以基本上我希望好的溝通我們今天因為是一個特別條例的審查我希望能夠強化一些溝通"},{"start":9349.818,"end":9366.347,"text":"那所以我對這個委員報告因為不管是LOR或PNA或者是LOR或這個LOA是他在還沒有知會國會之前是是是都是屬於機密的部分是即使我們編列了相關的預算送到大院審查對"},{"start":9368.73,"end":9390.296,"text":"我的意思是說至少有一些初步的一些結論可以做一些初步的一些溝通而不要等到最後都看到LOA的時候所以上次我們還沒有互委之前事實上還沒有在委員會的時候就是說條例還沒有送委員會我們已經有做過一個完整的專報我們等一下來看一下日期但是有相當部分要採機密專報的方式"},{"start":9392.176,"end":9415.342,"text":"所以基本上其實我剛才講溝通這個事情所以我們的程序應該是做這個剛剛我這個下面部分要有作戰需求然後做先有分析然後再獲得規劃書這個大概就是我們的一個期程基本上這個應該是這是我們跟國防部拿到的一個狀況所以其實很多時間大家可以看到這個螢幕上其實時間都大概八月十月九月其實就非常確定了"},{"start":9416.514,"end":9423.221,"text":"應該是吧 這是國安部的資料就已經確定了就可以過來跟我們大概講一下說我們的對借金的需求大概是什麼"},{"start":9426.199,"end":9448.99,"text":"剛剛已經跟委員報告了就是說就我們相關的這些部分呢要在能夠公開的這個情況之下這個要請委員能夠體諒那如果相關有必要要排機密專報的話我們當然也很樂意隨時來再進行機密專報我一直強調 郭董你說那事實上我們在之前也都跟"},{"start":9450.31,"end":9467.244,"text":"委員來之前我們都跟每個委員特別是外交官委員都進行過好 感謝部長那這個裡面有很多這種所謂的這個作為費那裡面甚至還有那個18項可以看到這個就是我們今天還有一個新聞就通融單要的部分這個是不是可以說明一下為什麼這個會編在特別預算裡面"},{"start":9469.779,"end":9480.913,"text":"幫委員 我們那個年度的作為費目前幾乎處於一個滿檔的狀況是那您看到那個無人艇跟後面的急缺彈藥那個額度是非常非常高的對 那個18項那個是不強用的嗎"},{"start":9484.845,"end":9510.533,"text":"不只 通用的嘛 通用彈藥的部分它包含了我們國內沒有產製 還有我們國內不足的也就是包含腰兩棟公尼戰車砲彈 拐六公尼砲彈全部都在裡面嘛 所以這個也適合編在特別預算嗎還是應該在我們這個常態的預算裡面 最後的預算裡面來編我們常態的預算裡面 我們估算過我們沒有辦法去滿足 我們要超過120天戰備存量的需求"},{"start":9510.953,"end":9525.413,"text":"好 了解那 基於這個你再看一下16 17 呃 16 18啦齁這個 你們的這個最後的這個規劃書啊其實是完成在114年12月跟115年啦我想這個期程是怎麼回事為什麼會這麼後面才完成呢"},{"start":9527.455,"end":9551.532,"text":"包委員,我們您看到的那個整規書它完成的時間跟前面我們作虛、細分、施工完成的時間它每一個案子都會有所不同那當然我們這一次特別預算裡面原本是配合去年年底的整個規劃可是我們看起來應該是規劃完才會有後面的動作嘛"},{"start":9552.16,"end":9578.591,"text":"包委員您這個上面沒有看到的是我們跟美方的協商過程我知道我知道可是這個就很奇怪嘛慈善是不是可以給我們我們再來溝通一下再給我們大家詳細的知道一下有哪些細部的部分好不好就剛剛這個市長說的那這個有一些甚至在那個系統分析跟那個作業需求有一些那個好像順序不一致的部分就好像作業分析系統分析反正在前面"},{"start":9579.961,"end":9607.404,"text":"這個是怎麼回事包委員 我們那個系統分析它核定文號的時間跟它實際的作業的時間並不全然是一致的好 OK那是不是可以再跟我做一些解釋對 我們可以再跟你做解釋好 OK 沒有問題好 那這幾項其實核定的速度都非常非常快幾乎都是一週6月18 6月25跟6月30這個是不是也可以跟我說一下它那個期程上怎麼會七天內就可以全部完成"},{"start":9608.805,"end":9620.349,"text":"最近廣播很辛苦還要上節目因為你們上節目我也必須要盯著電視來看看看你們說什麼有一些金額我想最近都一直在講94、95億一直在講這個金額說我們已經超過3%可是那天在節目上說明的時候好像有特別講到說什麼1000多億是退府費的 對不對"},{"start":9630.413,"end":9647.662,"text":"那好像又有什麼295億採尋的那基本上是不是可以就是說我們現在編制就是剛剛有委員提到一年一編什麼那大概基礎上我們現在有一個1176嘛對不對那基本上是不是可以跟我們說明一下最下面那個1176"},{"start":9649.443,"end":9676.877,"text":"委員報告是這樣子就是說原來過去的那個我們國安部講的國安部預算是指國安部本身的預算那後來因為這個NATO它的這個核心的安全預算的時候它會有包含這個以後會納入專案序列的海巡還有這個退伍費的相關的預算那我們是參照這個北約的標準來做那這樣子的話這個所謂的北約標準"},{"start":9677.877,"end":9692.871,"text":"就會比我們原來國防部本身編的這個預算還有相關的基金預算要來得高所以基本上剛剛有委員提到那個就是會多年期所以也是你們大概想法上今年就是用1100億左右這樣的概念來編這個計算這個基礎對不對"},{"start":9700.459,"end":9722.318,"text":"這個1176裡面是基本上有三個項目的預算當時在編這個預算的時候因為包含這次的這個不對稱戰力這個特別預算都把這個額度先框進去的所以這1176包含了這次的不對稱戰力第一年就是115年的預算另外還有兩個就是去年通過了經濟部的那個防衛那個韌性的那個預算海巡署編了76億"},{"start":9724.899,"end":9749.744,"text":"還有我們國防部的部分所以這裡面是有三個特別預算的額度在這裡對 所以我想其實目前為止從剛剛很多委員發言其實對這個條例還有很多的疑慮那我想剛剛也做了一些溝通我們取得了一些資料那是不是我們可以再進一步的做一些溝通好不好我想好的溝通是大家那個條例能夠順利通過的一個很重要的基礎好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員"},{"start":9750.724,"end":9777.303,"text":"謝謝王恩祥委員 接下來我們請黃仁委員尤其部長 謝謝主席是 請顧部長部長我們針對這一次的這個採購的特別條例的草案"},{"start":9779.161,"end":9789.121,"text":"那以立法院委員監督的角度來看最擔心的還是驗版的第四條空白的授權的一個問題那我想請教"},{"start":9790.424,"end":9818.782,"text":"我們在條例的第四條只寫能力列別但沒有把武器名稱寫出來那本席想藉今天的巡打的機會一一的來做一個釐清至少讓立院和國人知道有哪些武器第一項是金屬火炮對應的裝備是什麼有哪一些有哪一些比如說海馬斯海馬斯多管火箭系統"},{"start":9820.002,"end":9840.868,"text":"M109A7的自走炮第二項遠程精切打擊飛彈應對的裝備是什麼有哪一些待會你們來回答第三項無人載機及其反制系統應對的裝備是什麼有哪一些第四項防空防盜彈彈道"},{"start":9842.918,"end":9871.913,"text":"反彈道及反裝甲飛彈應對的裝備是什麼有哪一些第五項AI加C41SR系統對應的戰場管理系統的是什麼第六項強化作戰磁性量能裝備應對的裝備是什麼有哪一些請回答我想首先還是要跟委員以及這個大家"},{"start":9872.929,"end":9899.804,"text":"有在看的這個我想這樣的一個傳播的國人能夠了解條例跟預算就是不一樣條例就是在規範這一個我們要後續提出的這個預算我們所要做的一個能力建構所以條例本身它就是一個大象然後我們接下來不可能我們國防部自己去編這個預算然後我們就去執行我們這個所有的預算案還是要"},{"start":9900.544,"end":9924.623,"text":"送到大院來委員會然後進行審議然後再到大院通過所以這是第一點所以是不可能說條例通過以後好像有一個空白授權這個是跟這個整個我們走條例跟預算這兩個是程序是完全不同的那剛剛委員有問到的這個我就能夠公開的部分能夠跟委員做個報告大概就是說"},{"start":9925.083,"end":9938.69,"text":"精準火砲的部分剛剛我也有提到應該是M109A7的精準火砲遠程精準打擊的飛彈大概應該就是指海馬式的多管火箭的飛彈系統無人載具的部分"},{"start":9939.974,"end":9968.059,"text":"有包括到這個環甲型的無人機的飛彈系統,包括Artis 700跟這個Artis 600 RSR然後另外呢我們會有第二代的海獸的戰術型的無人機,這個其實講的就是瑞淵二型然後我們有好多款的這個冰海攻擊型跟尖針型的無人機那我們還有無人艇還有無人艇然後我們會有一些"},{"start":9971.04,"end":9997.633,"text":"智慧型的無人機部長因為時間因素你就把這些明細的部分給我一份好不好我們可以就這個可公開的這個項目的部分你就給我明細因為既然這個就是針對條例的第四條我們把這些問題一一的點出來所以希望你能夠把明細給我"},{"start":9998.593,"end":10024.027,"text":"那另外就是台媒共同研發採購應對的裝備那這個有哪一些尤其是在一項一項的提問的時候就是要點出問題的核心第四條的一到六至少能夠擠列出具體的一些東西但也模糊那比較明確但問題不大但第七項我想請教"},{"start":10025.268,"end":10040.98,"text":"第七項根本沒有具體的東西存在本息甚至認為國防部在擬定條例草案的時候可能還沒有具體的想法和規劃第七項委員講的是台美共同研發及採購合約之裝備系統嗎對"},{"start":10043.502,"end":10066.101,"text":"跟委員報告 其實我們在機密專報已經做了非常完整的說明所有參與過機密專報的人都知道把這一個報告給我一份好不好報告委員 這個屬於機密那你說機密報告 那你能不能簡單的簡單的幾項 讓我知道 好不好呃 它是一個委員簡單的說"},{"start":10069.963,"end":10083.28,"text":"美方他們在NDA2026年的時候已經編了10億美元的錢要來協助我們獲得各項重要的武器裝備那這個部分美方也希望我們能夠共同投資去採購那因為採購的項目"},{"start":10086.044,"end":10108.39,"text":"必須在美方確定之後會來大院進行專報所以這個部分他是暗暗去報他會比我們前面的那個報的頻率會更高所以我看不到你們裡面所以我才請教你們嘛好不好內容那是機密好那你這個是待會就簡單的跟我們在做研究後續的那另外就是我請中科院根據媒體的報導"},{"start":10114.909,"end":10142.663,"text":"根據媒體的報導國內自殺無人船在於中科院的快起的專案無人攻擊載機是不對稱作戰最好的手段那本席非常的支持那期望中科院能夠依照期程完成準時交貨那你能不能回答到底是八年還是五年還是六年你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":10143.739,"end":10162.154,"text":"無人艇的這個部分的我想我們是採公開招標的部分是我現在啟程我想請鍾柯燕你來回答這個啟程因為這個是屬於我們海軍艦隊的這媒體都有報導快期專案嘛快期專案那"},{"start":10162.694,"end":10182.652,"text":"既然有這樣的困境,那剛剛我也講了本席非常支持嘛本席非常支持那另外就是他的期審到底是8年還是6年還是5年你來回答就好了,好不好跟委員好,海軍參謀長報告那整個這個案子從116到122"},{"start":10187.25,"end":10191.275,"text":"116年到122年那我們會分大概16到17然後18到19跟120到121我們會做三個階段來做那122年結案122年結案是的 是因為我們要考慮到整個"},{"start":10207.304,"end":10234.578,"text":"科技的一個發展然後我們要進行一個迭代的創新所以就無人艇的這個部分我們也會採國內公開招標的方式來進行那相關海軍事實上已經做過一次這個公開商情的一個說明但詳細的這些期程跟預算還是要等大院條例通過以後我們再送預算案進來才可以做到最後的確定媒體有報導這個專案就是這個快寫的專案"},{"start":10236.926,"end":10266.358,"text":"那為什麼一定要到8年才完成中科院的這個快起裝案是中科院現在的一個科研案並不是跟我們特別預算的這一個無人艇的沒有這個已經是在公務預算裡面都有編了嘛公務預算都有編不是現在在這個草案裡面我現在問的是快起裝案快起裝案現在還沒有納入我們的特別預算或者是這一個公務預算裡面它現在還是一個科研案"},{"start":10268.021,"end":10284.105,"text":"現在是科研案?是對 好 那幾年完成?去年已經完成了OK 好 以上好 謝謝黃仁委員那接下來我們請王逸川委員"},{"start":10295.714,"end":10322.137,"text":"好 謝謝召委 我們請顧部長請顧部長市委官委部長請問一下我們這次三個案子的條例名稱部長有什麼想法三個提案您說那個條例的名稱對第一條條例的名稱"},{"start":10325.463,"end":10329.845,"text":"您說三個版本的第一條還是整個條例的名稱?整個條例的名稱因為有一個版本直接是對美軍事採購"},{"start":10340.741,"end":10357.481,"text":"對,那這一點的話我們國防部是不只限於軍購的部分我們考量到整個我們國防自主防衛任性我們認為還要包括偽製案還有我們急需獲得的戰利的商購案那對任性這兩個是堅持嗎?"},{"start":10362.096,"end":10388.404,"text":"我們強調韌性就是因為強調國防自主國防產業的自主強調我們這個韌性的重要性所以我們在這個名稱上面會強化防衛韌性那所以剛剛也提到包括我們要強化我們的這個軍備的生產線等等第二個這一次的三個版本裡頭啊有一個3800億的這個版本"},{"start":10391.926,"end":10413.404,"text":"那這個案子可不可以請部長跟大家說明一下如果最後通過是3800億的版本美方會有什麼反應這個3800億就我看到的這個國民黨提出來的應該是指這個已經對美"},{"start":10417.343,"end":10442.575,"text":"已經美方有智慧國會的案項,那我想這個並不足以涵蓋所有的我們現在所想要提出來的預算的內容部長覺得預判一下,1.25兆的案子最後變成3800億,不管美方的誰,美方大概會有什麼反應?"},{"start":10443.325,"end":10469.518,"text":"我想這個我們跟美方經過這個長時間的一個溝通美方應該不會接受這個3800億他不會接受他們會錯什麼反應會使得美方會質疑我們的這個防衛決心跟我們的這個防衛能力的強化所形成的一個破口"},{"start":10470.385,"end":10497.616,"text":"也就是接下來我們國防部繼續跟美國談後面的事情的時候美方會有點質疑你們是來談真的還談假的我可以跟委員報告就是說美方高度高度的重視我們這個依照2500億的預算的審查一通過那麼他認為就是集體嚇阻"},{"start":10499.937,"end":10524.839,"text":"防衛要承擔我們最大最大的問題會面對的就是我們不願意承擔這個防衛的那在對他的來講他的印太的整個戰略會受到嚴重的一個打擊那我想這個是美方所沒辦法接受好那在這個條例的"},{"start":10526.793,"end":10552.927,"text":"行政院版的第四條國民黨的第五條 民眾黨的第四條都在講這七大項 幾大項那這些內容行政院版本就寫的是一個比較系統性的名稱國民黨版就部分它寫的是比較項目的名稱就出現了民眾黨版把裡面的金額都具體換算成台幣"},{"start":10554.901,"end":10577.833,"text":"部長在立法上這三種寫法,國防部的寫法到底這樣寫對你們來說有什麼好處或者是彈性,能不能跟國人說明一下我想先說明兩點,第一點是國民黨在第五條裡面所列的這個項目我之前已經講過了"},{"start":10578.993,"end":10589.691,"text":"有一些我們他雖然智慧國會可是並不是擺在我們的特別預算裡面沒錯 跟你們原來的第四條的部分是有些不一樣的嘛對對對 那麼他現在主要是講說他"},{"start":10591.7,"end":10618.763,"text":"將智慧國會的項目列進去但是還沒有智慧國會的部分就沒有列了解那我想這個部分會剛剛已經講了美方應該是沒辦法接受了解這是第一個第二個民眾黨團提的他將所有的那些這個項目跟那個金額都寫上去這個是跟條例還有將預算整個是"},{"start":10619.887,"end":10640.909,"text":"是混在一起了條例應該是能立預算案的部分呢我們還要等到後續我們預算案提出來那預算案還有可能跟美方在預約的過程當中最後會產生變動那麼變動的話我們就要修這個預算相關的這些書表如果把它列到條例裡面的話"},{"start":10643.669,"end":10669.763,"text":"隨便一個字一個項目一個金額的變動那我們要送到送到大院來再來審議然後再來修改然後才能夠去變更這個預算書表我想這個是沒辦法執行的啦最後一個請教一下這個執行的這個條例的期限期間行政院版現在訂的是八年那"},{"start":10671.417,"end":10691.994,"text":"拉到8年對這個案子來說部長可不可以再跟大家講一下為什麼要拉這樣的一個時間我們相關的這樣子的一個能力的建構不管是軍購案商購案或者是委制案我們都會有一定的一個期程那這些期程呢"},{"start":10693.297,"end":10718.317,"text":"我們也要考慮到這一個相關的財政紀律跟相關的公共債務法相關的給我們的一些限制那當然我們會跳脫說有關這個年度預算給我們的一些束縛但是我們還是會遵照財政紀律法跟這一個公共債務法有一些總量的一個管制那最重要就是說不管是軍購案、商購案或者是這個委之案它都有交易的趨勢所以軍購案會有一個"},{"start":10719.349,"end":10728.96,"text":"交運的期程那如果沒辦法在這個期間內完成這個交運將這個條例限縮在很短的時間內那幾乎這個預算這個案項就沒有辦法來執行交運這個"},{"start":10735.667,"end":10761.088,"text":"譬如說海馬仕的82套那同樣無人機的部分我們也希望能夠符合迭代創新所以我們會有一個迭代創新的一個長年期的規劃然後來達到一個預算規模然後來增加國內的產線的能量讓這個整個國防制度能夠提升那這個都是有一個完整的一個配套所以這個8年這個數字也是跟美方討論過的數字"},{"start":10763.025,"end":10785.207,"text":"我們就美方討論的部分是軍購案的這個部分那麼其他的部分我們當然也會隨時跟美方保持溝通你總是要問他多久做得出來嘛多久怎麼當時做得出來你們去顧了這一個八年交易的期程都有從剛剛講的開始LR和平衡跟LR這個"},{"start":10787.096,"end":10796.722,"text":"LOA等等這個相關的這個階段就推估出來了我們都有跟他們做綿密的溝通OK 好 謝謝謝謝委員 接下來我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":10832.752,"end":10832.854,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10897.858,"end":10897.878,"text":"嗯?"},{"start":10897.878,"end":10907.242,"text":"咖啡喝了?喝了喝了"},{"start":10925.438,"end":10925.558,"text":"學寶可可"},{"start":10972.611,"end":10983.441,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10989.428,"end":10990.048,"text":"黃昏島的頭巾在哪裡?"},{"start":11041.854,"end":11059.106,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":11063.289,"end":11066.793,"text":"謝謝觀賞,下次見!"},{"start":11078.188,"end":11085.893,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的餐廳"},{"start":11105.245,"end":11107.767,"text":"好厲害"},{"start":11153.422,"end":11157.785,"text":"那我們繼續開會那接下來我們請王定宇委員質詢"},{"start":11168.244,"end":11169.191,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩部長請鼓掌"},{"start":11179.079,"end":11201.849,"text":"副長長在進到特別條例之前我有兩個比較小的問題先就教於您第一個是我們八軍團的夭夭拐女說掉了將近八千發的空彈殼那這個事情新聞有報了我看到也是八軍團跟陸軍直接喊請移請高雄地檢署偵辦所以我是肯定不要有錯誤不要隱瞞"},{"start":11203.359,"end":11208.565,"text":"面對錯誤才能糾正錯誤我今天要問的題目不在於這個短掃7900發的空彈殼我是要請教一個問題"},{"start":11213.691,"end":11219.115,"text":"2024年的1月9號當時訓次是劉聖母開了一個記者會說我們現在為了強化訓練實彈射擊量變大所以實地實務實作以及實戰化訓練來做考量有關射擊訓練各部隊轉換動作移動如果彈殼散滿地"},{"start":11238.717,"end":11259.253,"text":"找不到的話就別找了就填個表單把它除帳就好當時有開一個記者會就不用再滿地找地當然還是要收回來但找不到我就填個表單把它除帳免除了當時大家認為這是一個減輕國軍負擔的一個德政我現在把這兩件事情都在一起問"},{"start":11260.717,"end":11274.173,"text":"既然有除障制度那跟八軍團夭夭拐驢這一次掉了快八箱的打完的空彈殼這兩個事件的本質上的差別在哪裡怎麼還會既然可以除障了怎麼還會有這個問題"},{"start":11276.461,"end":11303.823,"text":"包委員 簡單的說這個事情陸軍事件部在調查的時候也有去做一個了解也就是說實戰化的要求目前我們仍然是按照這樣做那但是它也有一個合理的長數跟比例那目前我們跟這個短掃的空彈殼的數量來看它兩者之間沒有決然的關聯性所以這個事件的本質在於我如果這一場這個部隊我拉出一打法"},{"start":11304.841,"end":11327.689,"text":"那打了一千發結果掉了兩百發或一百多發的空彈殼啦以前的話都要找到現在是找不到填表單儲帳是而這一次11拐鋁的事件是短時間內大量整批的不見目前掌握是這樣那如果快七八千發的空彈殼是蠻重的喔"},{"start":11328.22,"end":11337.023,"text":"他現在主要是跟藏籍的資料不符我們要再去檢視一下空彈殼的數量何以會跟藏籍的登載不符但是我們還是有"},{"start":11354.905,"end":11371.236,"text":"如果原來是查帳籍那是行政調查我看到你們的動作是直接丟給高雄地檢署我們自己也要做調查提醒國防部一件事情就是說既然在2024年的1月份我們有一個"},{"start":11371.936,"end":11388.581,"text":"新的街市就是對於這空蛋殼因為以前我們自己打法知道你要通通找回來要花很多時間我們有個儲帳制度這到底是一個帳的累積到一個量他只是沒有去登記表單儲帳累積到這麼大的量還是像剛才參謀長所說的"},{"start":11389.941,"end":11418.844,"text":"這不一樣這個違反了這個常識跟比例原則太大量的突然間不見這個本質上是有差異的我是希望不要因為這樣子原來你們當時這個申報除障免除去撿找到百分之百空彈殼這個東西不要再走回頭路了其實美軍是沒有在撿彈殼的是 我想我知道委員的關切所以在這一個事情發生的時候我也是了解那我們想我們這一個有關那個"},{"start":11419.94,"end":11420.299,"text":"呃"},{"start":11421.4,"end":11449.347,"text":"原來的那個機制我們想我們還是會存續的我們軍方的習慣是除了一個問題就多一個新規定要減輕一個東西就多了一張表單就越填越多減量啦第二個我要請教我們昨天看到在美西時間17號接裝了兩架MQ-9B高空的無人機那我這問題也很簡單高空無人機的飛行員他還是叫pilot或者操作員"},{"start":11450.492,"end":11468.455,"text":"跟一般無人機的飛手一般無人機可能是小型的可能是巡飛彈的或者自殺無人機的我們在現在目前國防部對這兩種操作人員的定義是否一樣因為定義衍生出來的專業家級是不是雷同"},{"start":11470.379,"end":11485.696,"text":"先跟委員報告我們現在編成的無人機大隊也因為這個編裝的調整我們跟人事總署已經爭取了所以我們現在無人機大隊也列入戰鬥部隊的一個佳績但是它有沒有飛行佳績"},{"start":11487.634,"end":11514.329,"text":"無人機的部分嘛小型的中小型的無人機高空的無人機的部分沒有有沒有飛行加急因為這也是我們國軍第一次接收到這樣的一個裝備所以說我們有把它初期納到跟其他的戰鬥勤務加急是一樣的這個戰鬥勤務加急這一題我們將來還有專報的時候可以來討論我給部長跟我們各軍總參考一下第一個先把定義弄清楚"},{"start":11515.01,"end":11517.504,"text":"FPV啊彈簧刀啊"},{"start":11518.991,"end":11542.722,"text":"這個Jump 20啦這種一般的無人機的飛手你們現在設定的是領無人機的戰鬥家體領戰鬥部隊的戰鬥部隊家體但是去開MQ-9B這種高空無人機在美方是認定他是一個飛行員而我們現在不管是陸航的直升機的飛行員因為我們現在有一些要淘汰人又會釋放出來他還是飛行員"},{"start":11545.623,"end":11574.284,"text":"所以高空無人機 軍規的高空無人機應該還是要有飛行員的加級你可以增加一個類 我們現在兩類嘛你可以增加第三類別這是尊嚴 這也是知己就我本來是開飛機的 我現在去操作無人機我變成領戰鬥加級 而不是飛行加級我相信參謀長應該理解這個對一個飛行員的尊嚴也好對他實質的所得也好對鼓勵流用來講 都會有影響甚至於連服裝"},{"start":11575.578,"end":11599.545,"text":"美軍在開在駕駛這些高空無人機的是穿飛行服我們現在要他穿的是野戰的作戰的作業服這些都要納入考量我提供建議就是說對於無人機類別要區分開來高空作業的無人機他是不是定義為飛行員著飛行裝加擠未必要像有人飛機的加擠這麼高"},{"start":11601.526,"end":11619.393,"text":"但是我們可以增加第三類別因為這是未來其實它是現在式現在這種無人機的操作員各國都在增加所以我們如果一視同仁從海軍陸戰隊的飛手陸軍的飛手到高空無人機的飛行員都視為同一個類別的話"},{"start":11620.453,"end":11631.599,"text":"留不住人才我坦白講我就到民間去開直升機就好我幹嘛留在這邊變成領這個佳績我相信部長跟董事長聽得懂我意思啦這個給部裡面建議那我現在請教"},{"start":11633.1,"end":11652.157,"text":"我們一般在所謂的預算的特別條例其實他就是最重要的條例就三個條文第一個條文叫做屋頂我給你多少上限不管是治水的特別條例基礎建設的特別條例或我們以前的F16V的特別條例上限多少"},{"start":11652.737,"end":11669.794,"text":"第二個條例的在這條文裡面的第二個重點是用途適用什麼範圍像我們的前瞻基礎建設裡面叫做綠素水稻香綠能啊數位差距啦那個水的改善跟治水啦"},{"start":11670.795,"end":11698.915,"text":"道路、鐵道建設、城鄉差距它會界定一個範圍因為條例本身不會去處理預算的細項是根據條例通過之後才來編列預算在這個範圍裡面框住而特別條例的第三個重點叫做年限為什麼特別條例要有年限否則就放在年度預算就好了我是三年期像我們的公路這個叫做都市生活圈道路是四年五年一期"},{"start":11699.536,"end":11708.233,"text":"因為他要跨年度去規劃他要累積的所以我們這個是八年所以我第一個要請教這一個部長"},{"start":11709.502,"end":11736.122,"text":"我們的預算1.25兆是怎麼計算出來的怎麼得到這個數據的1.25兆我們因為我們在專案報告裡面已經有提出我們的整體的規劃那細部的這個要籌購的這個些項目那麼有一些是還機密有一些是可以公開的所以我們上次也在這個委員會做過全面的一個機密專報"},{"start":11737.064,"end":11740.85,"text":"所以那個就有比較充分我們能夠有一個"},{"start":11741.994,"end":11770.066,"text":"比較充分的一個機會所以我這樣講對不對這1.25兆其實是經過不管是賓診或者跟台美之間的磋商溝通它是有具體的項目需求加起來才有這1.25兆的數字而不是框個數字在那邊以後慢慢花對然後就跟委員講了我們已經有一個規劃那這規劃也做過精密專報有一個完整的規劃那現在這是一個上限嘛那我們接下來就如同委員剛剛講的我們還要把每一個"},{"start":11771.287,"end":11776.775,"text":"因為很多人把這個上限當作預算了其實特別條例通過之後還要編列預算進來審查嘛那具體預算的金額"},{"start":11781.055,"end":11809.411,"text":"不能夠超過這個上限但事實上每個預算那你用途的範圍可不可以大方向講因為我相信就算在野黨我們可以其實就本著需求來好好溝通如果這些預算的上限是經過計算出來的項目確實是我們國家安全所需要的我覺得在我們國防委員會這個東西沒有黨派吃分的啦那第二個就是說用在哪些方向對美採購是其中一項而已你們主要的用途有哪幾大類"},{"start":11810.952,"end":11831.166,"text":"跟委員報告一個,我剛剛在黃仁委員在講的時候,我大概有提出金融五號,我可以公開的部分我現在先講,M109A7,遠程金融打擊,非常就是海馬式多管火箭無人載具跟它的反制系統,這個可以公開現在部分,當然還有包括國內的商購跟委制部分"},{"start":11832.166,"end":11858.74,"text":"一個就是反甲型的無人機的廢彈型這個Artic 700然後還有這個Artic 600 ISR你現在講的是項目啦我講的用途範圍大概就是精準火藥跟它的載台還有我們的不對稱戰力的建構還有我們的台灣盾就是防空能力的整合提升然後另外因為這些彈藥什麼很多需要在台灣產製所以有台灣的產線台灣無人機的製造你大概有幾個大的範圍就是我們特別條例裡面列的這幾個範圍"},{"start":11862.472,"end":11883.518,"text":"所以我真的因為時間的關係我們未來這三天會好好來討論這個條例其實特別條例只處理預算上限年限跟用途範圍這裡面不會去處理說你要買哪個細項不是寫在條例裡面的因為項目在預算編列還會出來而條例通過之後編列的預算"},{"start":11884.548,"end":11900.916,"text":"不管是細項說明審查甚至於未來的決算其實跟年度預算是相同的方式還要再送大院審查對 還是要送大院審查啦就預算是預算條例是條例條例是授予編列預算的法源那我們希望這一次的聯席審查因為"},{"start":11901.977,"end":11917.764,"text":"八年有他的急迫性有他的需要性如果變成年年來審查變成年度預算就好了所以在國防預算聯審財政委員會我覺得我們希望我們不管是什麼政黨其實我們照顧的人民是同一群人"},{"start":11918.244,"end":11943.521,"text":"就是中華民國這個範圍內每個人的安全這沒有黨派的分別我們希望1.25兆基於不管是兵診計畫、細分會議或者台美的對談如果是確切需求的我們能夠在黨派之外尋求最大的共識讓1.25兆能夠全數通過好 謝謝我想這說明就條例通過1.25兆不代表空白授權1.25兆還是要細項還是要預算審查還是要大量通過所以絕對沒有空白授權"},{"start":11948.364,"end":11964.117,"text":"謝謝王定宇委員 接下來我們請林思明委員謝謝召委 我們請部長 請郭部長請郭部長部長好 部長好 部長"},{"start":11973.464,"end":11991.669,"text":"知道上週美國對我國所有的軍售案,還有多少軍售金額尚未交貨?我們剛剛在回答幾位委員的時候,大概這張說明就是說F-16V然後Mk-48重型魚雷還有AGM-154C"},{"start":11996.495,"end":12012.759,"text":"這三項那麼相關的金額剛剛都有做過說明是不是如美國的那個聯邦眾議員巴爾他在上個禮拜3月17號他指出共高達210億美元其中包括80億美元的F-16V的戰機20億美元的愛布蘭主力戰車、榴彈炮、標槍飛彈和飛彈精準打擊系統等"},{"start":12021.501,"end":12045.649,"text":"跟委員報告那個艾布蘭主力戰爭你講的是M1A2T那現在這個都準時交運而且今年會交運完畢所以這個這個標槍跟這個托斯2B也都是這個交完了那麼如果還有海馬式的第一階段的部分我們也都如期的在進行交運當中"},{"start":12047.629,"end":12070.634,"text":"所以沒有所謂您講的這個質疑F16的部分之前已經有做過說明應該來的都來了但是我想大家最關心的就是F16V的戰機跟美國購買這些新進武器來提升國防戰力絕對是不分黨派大家都會支持的"},{"start":12071.394,"end":12090.407,"text":"但是我們看到總不能說預算編了但遲遲都不到貨影響我國的這個武器的需求嘛即使是一選我們政府對政府的G2G的採購程序經過歸根到底它是一種商業行為嘛但是對於美方遲延交貨"},{"start":12091.668,"end":12112.706,"text":"國防部似乎也沒有辦法拿出一套具體的作為去督促只有做出呼籲而已所以我請問院長對於說行政院版的軍購特別條例對於這樣的商購採購的行為未來有沒有任何的風險的管控與履約擔保的規範"},{"start":12116.77,"end":12133.297,"text":"委員問的是軍購還是商購的部分軍購跟商購都含在內軍購的部分的話之前有回答就是軍購是政府對政府所以我們在每個軍購都會成立專案辦公室然後會管控相關的進度"},{"start":12135.798,"end":12159.19,"text":"軍購的部分當然如果你要問的是有沒有辦法有一個賠償那剛也說明沒有辦法做一個賠償的請求但是因為是政府對我們的承諾所以是美國政府對我們的承諾然後美國政府會要透過他的我們的相關的旅業管理的作為再去督促他的合約商來完成這樣子所以對政府之間我們就是一個承諾嘛"},{"start":12160.491,"end":12187.401,"text":"對 但是歷來都會透過來協商來接近合約中也不會去寫明這些相關的這個如果慈顏到貨有沒有相關的賠償都不會 或者相關的責任慈顏到貨是確實在軍購的項目上面是沒有辦法做這樣的要求但是軍購按以剛剛講F16來講我們現在要求要加速所以他們也進行兩班制然後呢也整個將產線呢"},{"start":12189.442,"end":12208.209,"text":"做個這個大幅的改進所以你講的現在包括在試飛也在在線上都已經有59架的這個飛機我想透過這樣的協商他們會加速來產製運交是所以是沒有辦法去要求他們如果沒有辦法要求他們部長我請問"},{"start":12210.05,"end":12227.137,"text":"對於我們國民黨版的第7條第7條的規定不曉得這個部長有沒有詳細閱讀就是主管機關因專案列管及考核本條例所列計劃之執行並將執行進度及績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告"},{"start":12228.177,"end":12253.648,"text":"本條例所列預算的執行審計機關應依法辦理審計審計機關審核各機關依本條例辦理之軍事採購及相關建構計劃如發現因工人員違法或失職自計劃執行進度或交付成果顯著未達核定目標或其執行成效低於核定進度的50%者應將執行機關首長及相關主管移送監察院調查懲戒"},{"start":12254.728,"end":12276.131,"text":"主管機關及其上級機關應依法執行並落實監督機制確保國防預算確實投入戰略建構部長你暫時這樣的一個草案條文嗎我們特別條例本來就是每會期都要向立法院提出專案報告就是說條例通過然後預算通過之後也是要這個之前"},{"start":12277.552,"end":12294.797,"text":"那個海空戰力特別提升的條例還有F16都是這樣子的所以第一項有支持我想我們把它明文化你贊成這樣的一個條文的一個草案嗎有關那個第一項的部分我只是說明就是說我們已經有像"},{"start":12295.317,"end":12318.535,"text":"每年都會向立法院提出報告然後我想審計機關也會依法辦理審計這個應該都是無用無帶規定就我們依照這個相關的決議還有審計機關也都會依法來辦理這個應該是沒有需要要寫在這個條例裡面嘛那至於有關那個沒有"},{"start":12320.207,"end":12325.433,"text":"第三項沒有達到50%這個部分我想剛剛已經說明了就是說這個政府對政府我們會來進行協商然後來進行改進我想這個部分因為這個延誤交運的這個延誤然後就要送這個監察院調查懲戒"},{"start":12343.351,"end":12368.124,"text":"在我們看起來這個應該也沒有必要是部長我想在野黨就是具一個監督的一個角色對於相關軍購的延擋我們還是希望就是催促我們國防部相關的官員在這方面要跟美方積極的去做溝通因為就是看到說這個F16都可以延擋那麼久"},{"start":12370.203,"end":12385.256,"text":"錢都給了那麼多,結果延宕那麼久所以我們才會有這樣一個草案的一個版本所以部長認為,如果認為說這個是本來就有做我想把它明文化,這不是更好嗎所以你說沒有必要,我也覺得很訝異啊"},{"start":12386.81,"end":12402.405,"text":"發明文化 至於說要不要去移送監察院來懲處說因為延宕造成整個計畫的執行我想這個也是督促我們相關官員要確實落實整個計畫執行的必要性嘛這都有它必要性嘛"},{"start":12403.68,"end":12421.947,"text":"所以部長我覺得把它明文化是很好的一件事情啊所以你不贊成我不曉得為什麼不贊成我想我們本來就是接受立法院的一個監督啦所以我的意思就是說接受立法院的監督這一件事情就一直持續在進行"},{"start":12424.848,"end":12447.432,"text":"我想這個等到討論的時候我們大家還會有一番爭執啦那我是建議說整個軍購還是要有落實我們的監督計畫執行的整個的成效我想這一點非常很重要我們所有才會去做一個明文的一個規定啦好 以上 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林世民委員接下來我們請沈伯陽委員"},{"start":12465.136,"end":12467.341,"text":"好謝謝主席齁那這個有請部長謝謝請顧部長"},{"start":12476.167,"end":12498.179,"text":"是 沈委員好 這個這個已經 這個國防特別條例提出來已經好幾個月了那這個好不容易 這個在我們這一個陳冠廷召委的這個努力之下我們現在有辦法來審查但是我覺得當然我們接下來還有禮拜三跟禮拜四會做逐條的審查所以我想說這一個"},{"start":12499.426,"end":12520.412,"text":"內容詳細的大概逐條審查的時候大家再來討論就可以可是我就一直在想就是說這一個國防現在造成的空窗期我覺得這還是一個很大的關鍵因為去年從去年開始討論這個國防條例這個在野黨一直有很多的理由說不審一下說是要國情報告"},{"start":12521.432,"end":12539.791,"text":"一下又說什麼這一個不透明其實有記者會也有機密會議機密會議又不來所以就是說那他們前面講的這些理由現在也都還在如果按照他們的宣稱這個情勢沒有任何的改變那為什麼現在就可以進入委員會審呢我覺得這個其實都是為了選舉而已"},{"start":12541.252,"end":12556.587,"text":"那為了選舉然後才來審這一個軍共對我來講我覺得是一個不能接受的事情那會不會選舉完了之後然後又開始不審了我們的國防總預算其實現在也還躺在立法院總預算到現在也都還沒有審所以我覺得"},{"start":12557.328,"end":12582.287,"text":"這一方面我覺得我們在禮拜三禮拜四審查的時候我覺得可能要放在心裡面是因為如果他從頭到尾如果在野黨只是為了一個政治表演的話那我們接下來要再往下不管是這一個行政院版的然後還是國民黨跟民眾黨的版本這樣再審查下去的時候這個內容很多我覺得會對國防部至愛難行所以我想先針對這些至愛難行的部分來問一下"},{"start":12582.927,"end":12605.825,"text":"第一個就是說這幾個版本第一個很大的差別就是第一條對於這個目的國防部一直以來就是台灣之盾跟非紅公應鏈這兩個我覺得是重中之重它不一定是佔最多的金錢但是它其實是整個我們對於防衛的核心而且需要長期的計畫那現在國民黨版跟民眾黨版本是沒有非紅公應鏈"},{"start":12607.026,"end":12624.116,"text":"那沒有飛鴻供應鏈這個對我們來講其實我剛有提到我們的國防總預算本身就已經有跟無人機相關的這個也跟我們對內的偽製跟商購這個也有關係這也跟我們要怎麼扶持台灣的產業有關係我們今天在戰備這整個需求上面如果我們今天還要仰賴"},{"start":12625.197,"end":12638.626,"text":"獨裁國家我們才有辦法去得到我們的軍備的時候這個在備戰一定會出問題所以我覺得光是第一條在這一開始的目的就已經不一樣這個往後先不要講說什麼金額寫死啦項目寫錯啦匯率的問題啦這個都先不談"},{"start":12642.668,"end":12669.837,"text":"光是在這一個第一條非紅供應鏈沒有存在在這一個目的之下我覺得在這個一開始我們對於金額的討論可能就會遇到很大的落差那是我可不想跟國人說明一下就是雖然在國防部的記者會也都有提過這在還不觸及因為機密會議有一些是我們在機密會議在這邊已經問過很多次了但在不觸及機密的狀況之下是我可以再跟國人強調一下非紅供應鏈對我們的一個重要性非紅供應鏈我想會"},{"start":12672.223,"end":12700.008,"text":"明顯的呈現在有關我們因應新型型態的戰爭我們要建構的這個特別是無人的這個載具的不對稱戰力因為現在這個無人載具的這個產業鏈如果沒有辦法在國內自主而且形成一個非紅供應鏈的話對我們整個國防自主還有治安的威脅是相當相當的高那因為大家都很清楚現在商用無人機的市場上面中國的無人機是佔了"},{"start":12703.399,"end":12728.098,"text":"這個可能七成八成這樣子的一個那所以所有的這些民主國家大家都有一個共同的意識就是要來排除那台灣呃身在這一個呃這個我們要來強化不對稱戰力那特別是無人載具的產業鏈的發展的時候一定一定要排除這個紅色的工的鏈的部分那"},{"start":12729.079,"end":12747.771,"text":"在這個為了要讓他能夠有一個紅色供應排除紅色供應鏈我們一定要有一個足夠的一個需求規模這樣的一個足夠的需求規模才讓廠商願意去投資然後才能夠讓這個世界各國願意將他的技術跟我們一起共同研發或者進行移轉"},{"start":12749.012,"end":12768.498,"text":"這個部分是非常非常重要的那沒有沒有這樣子的一個產業規模的建立你要打造一個排除這個紅色供應鏈的一個所謂的無人載具幾乎是不太可能謝部長因為現在就不是只有這個我們台灣自己現在日本跟韓國整個軍備都在提高當中"},{"start":12769.398,"end":12795.16,"text":"像歐洲對這個的需求也很大他們都需要飛鴻供應鏈所以在這個禮拜的經濟學人有一篇文章他就在講說他說台灣的無人機產業現在後來居上尤其是在飛鴻供應鏈盡量在零件的製造上面有這個Made in Taiwan這是經濟學人現在特別點名說台灣後來居上然後而且可以符合飛鴻供應鏈的需求"},{"start":12795.8,"end":12817.372,"text":"那我就覺得很詭異的就是說如果這個是一個台灣現在的產業發展我們又可以打入這一個世界民主同盟的供應鏈然後別人還特別點名說台灣現在價格還可以壓得比其他國家來得低特別點名的狀況之下這是一個台灣的這整個產業發展的需求然後也是我們國防的需求但我們就拖了那麼多個月到現在"},{"start":12818.433,"end":12836.049,"text":"不但沒有辦法審這個中間的過程不審國防條例就算了我們面對的是鋪天蓋地的謠言他們不斷的故意去造謠說台灣的哪一個產業本來是做A的現在為什麼來做B就故意要汙名化現在要起來的產業我覺得這個很麻煩是因為我們現在好不容易進入到委員會"},{"start":12837.19,"end":12856.206,"text":"我今天在這邊坐了一整天我照樣還是聽到就是在講說這個多少沒有到貨我們錢付了多少出去這個六千億這個謠言已經多久了不管是國防部不管是我們的行政院不斷的去告訴對方講說有些根本還沒有到貨的我們還沒有付款"},{"start":12857.908,"end":12879.063,"text":"專庫你要轉了好幾首才會到對方的手上但這個謠言沒有要停止的意思他們就是一直要給民眾一個刻板的印象說我們就是有軍購延宕他們就是要做監督但我們在29項裡面明明就是那三項而且F16V我看國防部現在也去看了這個現在F16V的這個進展這66家的狀況"},{"start":12881.505,"end":12904.394,"text":"那這些我們應該再更用力的傳達給國人因為他們只要一直這樣不斷的造謠讓民眾有這樣的刻板印象我們在這邊要去守護這個特別預算就會變得更為困難現在民意是對於國防條例要審是有這樣的壓力不然的話這個其實根本就不會進入到委員會就是因為有選舉有壓力現在才好不容易進入委員會但現在才是戰場的開始"},{"start":12906.135,"end":12934.19,"text":"在這個禮拜三禮拜四之前照樣又會有相關的報導相關的謠言要去污蔑國防部在這邊就拜託國防部在這幾天應對謠言之上要能夠再盡速的去回應我們禮拜三禮拜四在看西部的條文的時候才能夠再跟國人清楚的說明說為什麼這是我們需要的因為時間因素你看現在台灣之盾這個部分還沒有講到光是飛鴻攻略這其實有太多太多的東西可以討論而且畢竟有一些是"},{"start":12935.559,"end":12953.168,"text":"機密會議的過程我們機密會議我們都是全程坐在這裡太多人根本就沒有來機密會議那他不來機密會議的目的就是因為他不來機密會議他就不知道內容他不知道內容他就可以在外面造謠他一旦進來了他得到這些機密的資訊他就知道他不能亂講話他就不能在外面造謠"},{"start":12954.088,"end":12978.874,"text":"所以我覺得我們針對這件事情希望我知道國防部有去跟各個委員說明這個說明更多他們就越難在外面去造這些謠言這個對我們守護台灣的預算才會有幫助那因為時間的因素因為今天很多人要問所以我就不再佔用這個時間先謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員好 謝謝沈伯陽委員接下來我們請李彥秀委員"},{"start":12988.747,"end":12990.294,"text":"感谢赵伟 我请顾部长请顾部长"},{"start":12998.825,"end":13027.376,"text":"部長 強化國防是朝野的共識但是在特別條例中這個是八年 長達八年的國防資源的配置未來特別是兩岸的問題所以我們在國防戰力上怎麼樣接下來買的相關的軍備可以準時到貨當然我認為不分朝野黨派我們都期待期望有一個更完整的一個監督機制大家都可以看得到國人也可以很清楚了解"},{"start":13028.196,"end":13044.428,"text":"今天大家都一直在談F16V交貨的問題但是時到今天為止我們都知道不管是過去有因為疫情的因素或者是因為在前一段時間有因為生產線搬運的關係複雜等因素的延宕有不同的因素延宕但是"},{"start":13047.451,"end":13066.29,"text":"現在事實是F16V仍舊是還沒有交貨這還是事實我再次強調就是說在這個過程當中國防部曾經有提到說第一次是112年的5月份你們有提到說因為疫情原因所以交貨的延期"},{"start":13067.43,"end":13094.717,"text":"113年第三季當時的回應是說可以交貨但是114年11月份又說受到產線的影響這過程當中其實有兩年半的空窗就是說在研判國防部到底是什麼時候知道115年全數交貨是有問題就是說有可能會延擋因為之前你們跟我們講說有可能還是可以如期的交貨這個評估是美方告訴你的還是我們自己判斷之後的結果"},{"start":13097.14,"end":13110.007,"text":"跟委員報告 我想首先要說明我們有二十幾項的這些裝備那麼剛剛已經講了很多的部分都有準時或者甚至提前交易我們一直集中在F16B的一個交貨的詞彥的部分而且我們已經不曉得說了幾遍了"},{"start":13123.354,"end":13143.48,"text":"那麼對於我們F6B有關於我們這個交貨的這個遲延的部分也一再的去說明我們認為美方應該要改進的部分那美方也做了相當程度的改進那我今天也說了我們對於第一架沒有我就不再問你這個問題我請問你"},{"start":13145.581,"end":13160.191,"text":"接下來這個所有我們的軍購他交貨與不交貨或者會不會延宕有沒有可能延宕不知道這是未來的未知數你們研判的標準是根據美方告訴我的我們的"},{"start":13161.132,"end":13177.087,"text":"或者是因為中間過程有很多有可能是不可控的因素譬如說原料可能會缺等等這是未來有可能會發生事也許不會但是你們一般評估判斷他會不會延宕你們是用什麼樣你們是自己判斷還是根據他的回應"},{"start":13178.056,"end":13199.866,"text":"我跟委員報告所有的軍購案都會成立一個監審的專案團隊成立這個專案辦公室我們都有派人在那個地方會有一個綿密的協調跟定期的會議甚至防場的集合我們來掌握那麼所有現在世界各國願意用政府對政府給我們提供軍購的只有美國"},{"start":13201.434,"end":13222.274,"text":"只有美國所以我們跟美國之間透過這樣子一個軍購的程序已經有長年的一個這樣子的一個經驗那美國政府對我們的承諾也是一種保證那麼美國政府跟我們之間在進行協商的過程當中他都會希望"},{"start":13223.718,"end":13239.848,"text":"這一個他們的合約廠商能夠加緊做他們的一個產制所以我最後只要講說我們不能夠因為F16V的一個個案而延宕那就不能夠代表說我們就不要再積極的建構強化我們的戰力"},{"start":13241.909,"end":13246.61,"text":"我沒有說不買喔我只問你 我剛剛是問你說我們是怎麼樣去做判斷因為兩岸的關係我們隨時我們買不到那我們在軍備上的調整我們是不是要有什麼樣其他的覆案這是我後面要問的我沒有問你說 我沒有說不買喔你不要把話灌在我身上喔那我第二個問題我就要請問因為今天時間也非常有限喔"},{"start":13264.895,"end":13277.702,"text":"就是說商購跟偽製的項目的風險的控管的部分因為我們這一次特別有編了3000億要去做商購跟偽製的控管的部分但因為過去有一個潛力就是在我們在陸軍2022年建構採購的聯合高空的"},{"start":13281.284,"end":13297.121,"text":"精準的遙控空投系統等等但是也因為我們不是軍購我們是商購那所以最後因為沒有認證沒有寄令所以到最後包括我們跨軍種整合出現了瓶頸所以這就是商購相關的問題"},{"start":13299.303,"end":13308.427,"text":"這個未來你們在商購的部分我們如何去做過去因為我們有發生過潛力怎麼去做防範我希望這個部分你後續用書面回應我我最後一題我想請問部長在這一次在這一次伊伊的美國對伊伊的戰爭當中有軍事家分析認為說每一次實戰事實上都是我們下一次衝突的教科書美國在這一次伊伊戰爭中各種飛彈系統防禦系統其實都用上了"},{"start":13326.275,"end":13344.759,"text":"但是伊朗所有偵察機也都是用中國大陸北斗衛星的系統包括薩德愛國者頻頻發射中國大陸從這一次的實戰當中我們也好像也從很多的新聞資料當中也了解就是說他不費一兵一卒掌握了非常多的情資跟參數那我就要請問部長針對這樣的問題我們如何去有沒有什麼樣的因應策略"},{"start":13352.994,"end":13377.449,"text":"我們針對世界各國的武器狀況使用情形在我們整個戰略規劃裡面跟兵力整建當中我們都會列入考量那這些項目當中公開的資訊裡面有些不見得是準確的那我們還是要依照我們跟有門國家相關的情資有更正確的資料之後來針對我們的整個戰略規劃跟兵力整建"},{"start":13377.449,"end":13379.012,"text":"你們後續有去做一些研擬跟分析我們現在就已經在進行分析了"},{"start":13391.089,"end":13410.973,"text":"好 那我要請問一下就是說在這一次當中包括相關的我們過去包括我們講說鐵穹鐵穹原本有80%到90%的攔截率但是因為伊朗它用飽和式的攻擊所以它整個攔截率低於50%或甚至只有50%左右那在這個過程當中我們得到什麼樣的經驗"},{"start":13416.079,"end":13438.453,"text":"貓委員 鐵熊它是一個專門性的它主要的功能是攔截火箭 破砲跟砲彈這是它的專業所以我剛剛講 我們每一次戰爭過後不管是發生在我們這邊或我們周遭我們都要從中 隨時到一些教育對 但一樣它這一次使用的手法是相當不一樣的所以我們獲得的資訊我們也會納入我們後來建構台灣之盾的一個參考所以你們是滾動式的調整嗎"},{"start":13442.232,"end":13459.088,"text":"推動線看起來你們好像從剛剛講你們已經知道要買什麼但是我提的是說你看現在中東的戰局那兩邊的就是對峙那我們後續是不是不進有要再去做其他的調整那就你剛才講的你們可能要再去做調整所以我們才再一次的強調說一次編八年"},{"start":13462.86,"end":13489.757,"text":"買這麼長遠的東西會不會太長或者是太多或者是我們用逐年的方式來去做編列多編列幾個特別條例但不是一次編列這麼長這個是我最後要提的建議以上我的時間已經到了我想我們都持續的在不斷的建議無人載具我們也不是說就一次去買八年我們會來掌握這個整個一個跟這個創新的一個進程好不好"},{"start":13491.032,"end":13511.429,"text":"好謝謝李運雄委員接下來我們請劉書斌委員好有請保安部部長請顧部長是"},{"start":13524.096,"end":13544.605,"text":"我們看到的是在現在的這個全軍的邊線比的變化到去年都會從2010年開始2021年開始之後就一直在這個80%以下它所影響的是會是暫時根本沒有發揮它編制擁有的全部戰力還有裝備沒有人"},{"start":13545.845,"end":13572.814,"text":"操作的這個問題那請問現在有沒有什麼改變的方式讓我們的一般公民能夠越多的想要去從軍呢跟委員報告事實上我們去年的邊線比已經有提升那我們的遊營率也提升我們志願役的人數也增加超過應該是四千多個了所以我們整個逐年我們希望能夠改善我們的這個"},{"start":13574.435,"end":13593.909,"text":"改善我們的邊線比流盈利跟我們增加我們的這個志願役人數時間有限啊 顧部長我是不是要你的那個方法事後再給我好不好我們去年有到增加這個戰鬥加急的這個部分這個我想是有幫助的我們會後再跟委員做個說明"},{"start":13598.793,"end":13605.32,"text":"好謝謝我們繼續再往下看今天最重要當然是因為國防的軍購的這個部分那我們看到的是一個問題現在呢"},{"start":13608.863,"end":13629.932,"text":"國防這部分呢我們想問的是有沒有依照113年的55年的兵力整建計畫去進行那我們現在看到的是您在行政院版的在這第4條的567項當中並沒有特別的去把詳細的內容說清楚當然我們更想問的是說你們應該是在這個因為在1月去年的11月27號有提出來就是院版的有提出來那提出來之後呢"},{"start":13633.613,"end":13657.257,"text":"當然美國也收到了啦 但是這邊我們並沒有收到的是說你們應該是有跟美國國防部 美國方面去提出來的這個LOR的request對不對那這邊台灣並沒有收到 後來我們再到兩個禮拜之前的時候呢 收到的是說就要想到這個LOA啦 那這個地方呢是不是應該要在去年的時候就應該提出來的 LOR的部分跟我們的立法院來做一下報告 這些部分"},{"start":13659.042,"end":13682.669,"text":"跟委員報我想第一個就是說我們跟美方之間這個有關提出需求這個部分如果美方表達有初步的供受意願我們會編列預算那超過一定金額要報行政院同意之後我們再編入我們的相關的這個預算文件裡面那麼在美國"},{"start":13684.23,"end":13695.92,"text":"軍購的這個部分在他還沒有知會國會之前這屬於機密所以我們之前也有就這個特別條例我們有排一個機密的一個專報有將全盤的內容跟"},{"start":13698.903,"end":13727.059,"text":"所有來參與的委員做一個完整的一個說明所以等到花架書來然後說才要這個有一個特別條例然後再通過特別預算這個是絕對絕對是來不及而且也治安難行那麼跟委員報告就是條例跟預算是不一樣的條例只是規定一個大致的能力架構那我們沒有在規避大院的審查預算案"},{"start":13727.839,"end":13742.16,"text":"特別條例還是要送到委員會來啊所以沒有什麼空白授權也沒有採購內容不透明這個問題為什麼一定要一再把條例跟預算一直混淆呢沒有 我現在跟你講你剛才因為"},{"start":13744.162,"end":13765.792,"text":"沈博洋委員有提到我們民眾黨現在八席立委當中目前因為有六位是新的其實都沒有經過到參加過這樣的一個秘密會議的部分那您在3月11號也承諾說這個部分呢應該對民眾黨的委員們要做一下這個報告關於說當初在秘密會議所開的內容是不是您現在能夠承諾一下在可能在禮拜三禮拜四之前找個機會來進行"},{"start":13767.568,"end":13790.398,"text":"我想第一個這個貴黨的委員的更衣這個不是我能夠去控制這是貴黨做了更動那這個第一個第二個相關機密的部分為了要確保這個機密所以要請這個召委來同意排一個機密的專報我們才能夠做機密的一個說明那不然的話這些機密的專報萬一流出去"},{"start":13795,"end":13807.411,"text":"那到時候沒有辦法有人來來負責嘛所以如果委員覺得因為大家都這個會計才新道論那想要再有一次的好了解了部長因為我時間有限我繼續再問你因為照國防部的規劃的時候呢這樣子的預算呢這樣子一個建軍的"},{"start":13815.258,"end":13839.043,"text":"兵力的整建是一個長期的嘛至少是五年的部分那未來的地方因為還有第二波那第二波的時候像這個LOR的部分是不是也可能有機會跟台灣跟我們的立法院來去做用機密報告的機密會的方式來去呈現呢還是其實這個LOR都是沒辦法的其實我們最後都只能被LOA來去處理就是來去審議就對了"},{"start":13844.478,"end":13866.265,"text":"那份文件叫LOR for LOA,那是我們的發價書需求信函,在美方智慧國會結束之後給我們的是LOA,然後LOR它分好幾種,LOR第一種我們會提出來是LOR for P&A,是去巡價用的,就是對方的供售意願跟巡價的。"},{"start":13867.205,"end":13880.959,"text":"那我們也有可能美方在作業程序上面如果認為比較趕他會要求我們提出一個LOR for ROM就是那叫出估報價需求信函那這整個作業程序事實上"},{"start":13882.459,"end":13896.391,"text":"發架書本身是整個軍購作業裡面的產物而不是規劃文件他已經到了對方出具白紙黑字給我們說所以立法院最後就只有LOA的部分如果能夠比較時間比較充足的時候就來審議是不是"},{"start":13898.792,"end":13906.877,"text":"所以我們還是建議大院應該按照計畫預算制度裡面好 如果講到這裡我就往下看 這就是講到講到因為在113年的時候呢 國防部事實上在8月30號已經提了五年兵力整建跟施政計畫報告那事實上紛紛在立法院的預算啊 國防的施政報告啊 國防部的報告書114年都有 立法院的國防部跟預算評估報告等等"},{"start":13922.106,"end":13934.281,"text":"這些部分其實在三艦戰這種幾個計畫當中呢都已經呈現出來了所有的艦艦都需納入聯合戰力規劃要項跟五年兵力整建計畫這些部分呢也看到到是說呢"},{"start":13935.475,"end":13961.301,"text":"以照現在的從你們現在目前的這個已經提供給立法院的部分來呈現出來的規模會持續擴大啦大概年度的投資會增加是國造跟軍購會有這個一千兩百億的這樣子的規模這部分看到內容上面這樣寫所以呢其實是有的那我所以才問的說現在的目前所提出來的這個條例的部分是不是有預兆或是未來整建計畫是不是真的要五年成立計畫"},{"start":13961.861,"end":13987.846,"text":"包委員我們所有的建案都必須要納入五年兵力整建計畫之後才可以執行建案建案文件完成之後才可以編列預算這是我們的規定好 但是你知道嗎這個部分一直到3月7號才呈現在國防部裡面的新聞稿才呈現之前的時候其實並沒有那麼多的稱號說我們才會覺得說根本就不是讓大家可以很清楚的明白的這樣子一個情形我們的五年兵力整建計畫的詳細具體的內容是屬於機密"},{"start":13993.359,"end":14009.583,"text":"可是我們在看到的是剛剛我說那三項的兵力整建計畫他散佈在這些部分其實已經看到這樣的規模了那這部分我要呈現出來是說其實現在如果您已經有出現到有這樣的五年兵力計畫等等就是一個長期的一個規劃預算那應該"},{"start":14013.184,"end":14027.255,"text":"長期的規劃有節奏去施政那為什麼去不去編入到經常性的預算來做正常的審查程序啊這些部分才會是真正才讓立法院能夠好好去監督啊而且呢如果說像現在講的話呢1200億或是9500億的話呢那就應該會有一張多的這樣的形態如果這樣講的話其實"},{"start":14038.217,"end":14038.417,"text":"那部長你的看法呢?"},{"start":14061.182,"end":14085.256,"text":"就陳茹明列出來的資料一樣我們有數百個持續案不需要支付所以我們115年的新增案的額度只有80億元可以支付那如果這裡照2500億全部要用公務預算來支付照目前我們的規劃加上案項還有其他我們規劃當中必須執行勢力造成諸多案項根本沒有辦法支付或是造成我們"},{"start":14087.264,"end":14101.469,"text":"沒有 你年度這樣算你今年不是變到9500億的嗎而且你的1.25兆你除以8年的話不是也是增加大概1.5億而已嗎你這樣加起來其實就是平均每年大概就是這樣子啊這沒有辦法進行的嗎"},{"start":14105.263,"end":14131.582,"text":"喂好 我是主席局局長剛剛委員所提到的9495億其實它包含了好幾個面向年度公務預算我們國防部編列了5614億其他還包含特別預算還有海巡署跟輔導會編列有關國防預算的相關的額度所以加起來是9495億但是如果說把這個1.25兆編到年度預算的話1.25兆如果你是照五年的建軍計畫去進行的話其實年度平均的話就是會達到這樣的部分啦"},{"start":14132.903,"end":14153.152,"text":"民眾黨的意思就是在說 你應該就是照變成經常性的 常備性的預算去進行而不要用特別預算的方式去進行那這樣的話 其實每年扒起來 尤其你們現在一下框的是八年啊一點後照謝謝劉委員 要不要請他們書面回覆你書面回覆可以嗎 就對我這邊的一個疑問我們會再跟委員做個說明 好嗎"},{"start":14158.587,"end":14164.009,"text":"這邊的確需要多一些說明的 好 謝謝謝謝趙委員謝謝委員 那接下來我們請牛許廷委員謝謝主席 顧部長有請請顧部長是 牛委員"},{"start":14183.803,"end":14202.249,"text":"部長辛苦了這個話說從頭本期在去年的12月跟今年的2月分別自費都做了民意調查就針對這個軍購國防相關的議題要了解台灣民意的真實走向那我簡單跟部長交換一下意見這個民意調查的結果基本上顯示大概都有六成左右的民眾是支持國防預算增加的"},{"start":14202.609,"end":14223.565,"text":"所以我想這大家在國防預算的合理增加上面其實是有比較高的一個社會的共識但我們今年二月多做的題目就是你支不支持這個院版1.25兆的這樣一個特別預算這樣一個版本那就發現這個不同意的人其實是略大於同意呈現非常非常分歧的一個狀況這個顯見台灣社會對於這1.25兆突然之間跑出來的版本其實還是有蠻有疑慮的"},{"start":14224.326,"end":14252.286,"text":"那我想我們身為在野黨的立法委員國民黨也好 民眾黨也好大概都基於民意反應的一個結果我們要在支持國防預算的合理增加跟但不要一次過頭或者是造成社會質疑的地方其實在兩者之間要取得平衡這就是為什麼到最後在野黨也提了非常多的這個自己版本的國防特別預算條例這個我們應該好好討論這個如何來編列這筆錢這個條例的內容如何來做取捨這我希望在這個禮拜的討論會中大家可以理性的來做討論那我今天要準備這個"},{"start":14253.707,"end":14273.955,"text":"就叫這個部長的題目大概是這樣子的因為我們對美軍購的部分其實看起來是分階段來做進行也就是說這第一階段比較明確的包含這個M109A7的自走炮海馬4這個反甲型無人機飛彈系統等等這個基本上已經拿到了這個發架書那還有所謂的第二波也就是所謂的這個"},{"start":14275.936,"end":14300.555,"text":"反制無人機系統還有各類型的反彈道和防空的飛彈還有低空防空系統和反甲飛彈的儲量補充這幾項看起來是還沒有拿到這個相關的這個發價書這些後面的這個籌購的這些項目這個看起來還是在美國的戰爭部的內部討論的階段甚至都還沒有送到美國的國會我想請教一下我們國防部針對你們長期以來應該是一直在保持對話的一個狀態對於這幾筆的這個金額"},{"start":14303.717,"end":14324.555,"text":"或者是發架書大概什麼時候會通過美國的國會什麼時候會拿到有沒有時間表官委員先跟委員報告我們所謂軍購我們是依照我們的需求提出是沒有所謂分階段的那其實我們在這次特別預算裡面所有的發架書需求信函都是在去年同一個時間提出去的對"},{"start":14325.416,"end":14344.442,"text":"那另外我們針對目前還沒有智慧國會的項目一直在跟美方竊取聯繫那我們所掌握到的他們已經完成了跨部會的聯審那目前也會按照審查的期程在完成相關程序之後進行智慧國會"},{"start":14345.422,"end":14370.633,"text":"這是目前我們掌握到的訊息這當然是程序大家應該都還蠻清楚的但大家要知道的就是那個時間點的問題因為按照台灣關係法以及等等相關美國國內的法規的規範基本上美國國會在審議的過程中大概不太容易出現異議這過去的案例顯示即便沒有急著排審他也會再送過一個月之後自動取得通過這樣一個資格但是現在的狀況就是還沒有送到國會所以我的問題其實是這樣的"},{"start":14372.654,"end":14391.401,"text":"有沒有具體的時間表就你當然積極溝通這本席完全理解也非常支持但是你積極溝通的結果然後他還沒有完成聯繫審議那有沒有明確的時間比如說大概幾月幾月的時候他會送進國會幾月的時候我們會正式取得這個發價數因為這其實跟大家版本的整合跟金額調整都是密切相關的嘛所以是不是能夠這邊有明確的回答"},{"start":14391.901,"end":14410.26,"text":"我想這個就要看美方那邊,我們這邊沒有辦法幫美方做回應OK,那我再問一個問題,過去我們的國防特別預算,走特別條例特別預算的,有在沒有拿到美國智慧國會程序還沒完成之前,我們就先編列條例跟預算的前例嗎?"},{"start":14413.668,"end":14424.056,"text":"那個是特別條例嗎?應該不是吧?那個是正常公寓算吧?那是特別條例但是顯然在後續的過程中也出現了一些問題跟毛病對不對?"},{"start":14426.383,"end":14451.07,"text":"報告委員其實他那個案子還是按照我們目前正常的計畫預算制度跟軍購申請申請審核程序走並沒有什麼不一樣也沒有說先拿到發價書再去做處理OK這點本席願意尊重但我要把問題把它問完就我之所以會花很多時間去討論這個第二波的這個發價書的問題原因是這樣的就過去這個恐怕也不符合過去的往例喔路透社在3月13號的報導裡面直接稱這個川普"},{"start":14453.891,"end":14477.568,"text":"總統說訪中後才會批准所謂的140億美元其實就是我們大家講的這個階段的發價數碼才會批准這所謂的對台軍售這個尚在審核中的軍購項目啊這個通過了時間跟我剛剛問你時間點你說你在努力溝通不見得能夠明確回答這本席了解但既然有外媒做了披露就是說這可能會跟這接下來川喜會掛鉤啊國防部目前評估的狀況怎麼樣會不會跟川喜會掛鉤"},{"start":14478.528,"end":14493.315,"text":"我想有關這些外媒的評論,我們都予以尊重,我們沒有任何的相關的進一步的評論那麼我們會跟美方持續的溝通,然後希望能夠盡早的來取得相關的完整智慧國會的程序"},{"start":14493.675,"end":14517.876,"text":"也就是說你們立場不變好是因為這樣我之所以會再問這個問題是這樣就我們陸委會的副主委啊就是申友中在3月17號的時候接受媒體訪問的時候有講啊就是說這個政府在研判川習會的時候大概一定會談到跟對台軍購有關的也就是說我們政府內部的評估啊很有可能這個題目會在川習會上變成一個談判的這樣的議題這個軍售到底順不順利很有可能取決於啊川普的個人意志跟態度這我們都推過"},{"start":14518.676,"end":14546.747,"text":"這個美國的決策模型這當然是很有可能的那這樣子你們當初在內部討論的時候說研判這個題目可能會被拿到川習會的時候這個理論上應該是一個我們內部政府在做沙盤推演的內部會議啊這場內部會議我們的陸委會推估會被拿到談判期間這場內部的溝通會議的時候國防部有沒有參加我想我們就國防部的立場我們跟美方的相關的包括戰爭部跟國務院我們都是在進行這個有關"},{"start":14548.652,"end":14574.842,"text":"整個建案程序的一個溝通那麼美光我們會提出來但是美方有一個初步的供售意願那我們根據這個美方的初步供售意願來編列相關的預算那這一次納入特別預算的項目也是經過跟美方溝通的美方當然對我們講他有意願然後他往前推進這都沒有錯的這本席無一質疑台美關係但問題是客觀擺在前面的問題就是川崎會形成了一個很大的變數因為除了四月然後他現在因為中東的戰爭往後推遲"},{"start":14577.223,"end":14603.58,"text":"這陸委會在那場的訪問裡面他在透露啊還有可能有三場川習會對不對有APEC G20的啊甚至有可能川普的回訪等等這些會不會都會造成軍購啊實際上的變數我們就跟我們相關的對口單位來看的話他們的工作的意願並沒有改變工作意願並沒有改變沒有 沒有改變那照理來講應該就會很順利的理論上應該在四月的時候就可以通過國會的審議是這樣嗎"},{"start":14605.064,"end":14611.068,"text":"我們當然很期待這個美胖能夠儘速完成他們內部的審查程序然後進行智慧國會"},{"start":14621.354,"end":14638.76,"text":"在黨的版本的數字非常的保守然後一度上在很多的政治攻防這我們就暗下不表但是我必須要講的事情是很多時候它有在這個過程中如果出現很大的變數的時候你先把預算框在那個地方或先把條例框在那個地方到最後萬一真的這些變數成真了然後造成軍購狀況的受挫"},{"start":14639.94,"end":14667.788,"text":"他很有可能會變相的造成財政的部分的排擠這是在野黨我覺得要表達出來一些立場因此我們也再次在這個地方強調在野黨雖然一開始的數目比較低但是我們也都有對外有做明確的政治承諾跟宣示嘛如果這個美方的發價順序這個發價程序可以順利來做執行當然在項目上跟金額上當然有可以討論的空間但前提是要能順利執行這就是為什麼本席今天在這邊問一定是問川習慧會不會造成變數有沒有具體時間表的原因嘛"},{"start":14668.388,"end":14686.57,"text":"那不是還沒有什麼最後的要補充嗎因為今天大家都要執行就是說在同一個條例裡面提出一個預算的上限不代表我們就能夠通過相關的預算因為具體的預算還要經過大院的審議所以條例跟預算是分開來看的不是說條例通過了我們好像預算就不要送到立法院來審議"},{"start":14688.051,"end":14711.484,"text":"實務上來講大家基本上在條例的過程中因為討論的是最大的框架跟大的範圍嘛所以我想通過之後實務上來講這些特別預算在預算審查的時候大家都是老江湖的也知道並比較不會有這麼多的一些爭議嘛所以當然框線的部分很有可能它到未來它很有可能就是被支用的這一點大家當然各有各的說法這本集願意理解預算的距離還是要送立法院來審議啊當然當然當然"},{"start":14712.344,"end":14729.725,"text":"但實務上來講大家也會傾向比較相信的這樣一個態度因為現在貴黨提出來是說發價書拿到再有一個特別條例不是說在這個特別條例裡面框一個金額然後等到拿到所以如果真的你可以依時間裡面取得去發價書我們不會去為難對美軍購的預算嘛其實態度上就是這樣嘛所以我覺得今天這樣子嘛"},{"start":14730.566,"end":14750.796,"text":"部長 如果可以很順利 不管國防部 外交部 各方面都努力趕快去拿到發架書的話 這後面的審查就會順利嘛這就希望好好進行 這也是為什麼我今天都是問這些問題的原因啦這就希望國防部好好加油 我們就希望用這樣的心態 開放的來討論 可以嗎我還是說明就是說 條例是"},{"start":14752.635,"end":14779.892,"text":"一塊那麼預算要通過不通過還是要送到大院來進行審議啦當然那這個的時候跟貴黨提出來說我們另外再訂一個特別條例這兩個概念應該不同我覺得您認為概念是不同我認為是殊途同歸啊因為只要有我們的程序只要可以把它完備確保這些錢一定買得到花了出去而且有明確的期程我想在來黨是不會多做為難的啦好不好好今天因為時間有限啦後面還有很多委員要質詢感謝部長今天的回答謝謝"},{"start":14782.136,"end":14798.109,"text":"好謝謝謝謝劉委員接下來我們請黃建斌委員謝謝主席我們有請顧部長請顧部長黃委員好"},{"start":14806.038,"end":14829.746,"text":"部長好 部長在討論軍購條約之前本席有一個議題想要跟部長來反映那剛好早上王定宇委員也提到就是關於這個八軍團搖搖拐驢這個彈殼大量8000多顆不見的這個情況本席記得以前我在當兵的時候我們光是打靶少一顆彈殼全年就要留下來在那邊燒炒"},{"start":14831.747,"end":14846.808,"text":"蛋殼 那八千顆不是一個少數目啦 我相信這應該是內部管理的問題啦不過我們確實要去檢討說這樣的一個制度經過二十幾年的他還是不是有檢討的必要那對於這些東西我想部裡面這邊也要來來想一下怎麼樣不要來讓"},{"start":14847.669,"end":14861.98,"text":"部隊裡面增加的工作量,同時也解決一些弊端的發現接下來開始,部長你擔任國防部長以來,整個國際的情勢變化非常大甚至我們整個戰爭的形態也改變了很多過去我們購買的反飛彈的系統,像愛國者、天宮這些飛彈的防禦系統也花費巨資"},{"start":14868.385,"end":14874.67,"text":"那我們也新建了這個63雷達戰用來防衛中國這個導彈那這些武器確實有效的防衛中國的地對地導彈跟戰機但是我們從俄烏戰爭還有近期這個美以一戰爭我們發現到這些昂貴的系統沒有辦法有效的防衛無人機"},{"start":14887.699,"end":14911.787,"text":"那以這一次這個美伊戰爭為例這跟我們樂山雷達相同這個卡達長城預警雷達就遭到伊朗用大量的這個攻擊無人機再配合飛彈導彈飛彈來進行這個飽和式的攻擊那甚至號稱全球最先進的薩德飛彈防禦系統也因為沒有辦法防禦有無人機的攻擊而受損那美軍為了要避免這個高單價的這個"},{"start":14913.628,"end":14929.167,"text":"武器被廉價的無人機消耗如今他們也在戰場上使用大量使用這個低成本的無人機來降低自己武器的這個消耗的成本那顯然現在的戰爭形態已經從高昂的武器轉變成這個低成本的消耗戰"},{"start":14930.208,"end":14945.818,"text":"那過去我國建構的飛彈防禦系統確實保衛了中華民國但是當我們整個國際整個戰爭的形態改變的時候尤其我們要面對的是全世界無人機應用最大的中國的時候我們採購規劃的武器能不能夠防衛"},{"start":14947.475,"end":14973.506,"text":"國家的安全就非常的重要因此本席有幾個問題想要來跟部長請教那第一個從我們俄武戰爭 美戰爭來看那對付無人機就是要用低成本的方式那國防部今天在報告也一次強調說會購買各類型無人機的反制系統以防禦小型無人機飽和攻擊威脅可是你沒有說要用怎樣的規格的系統只是用很籠統的文字就要求說立法院要通過這個特別預算"},{"start":14974.266,"end":14992.711,"text":"我的認知裡面他防禦的方式有分硬體跟軟體那你有低中高空的這方式那這些東西其實都沒有講到各位部長對於我國這無人機的防禦系統國防部的初步規劃是什麼那面對大型中型小型的自殺無人機我們的規劃的預警跟防禦系統又是什麼"},{"start":14994.306,"end":15021.273,"text":"委員這個問題是蠻好的就是說我們要反制無人機我們要結合硬砂跟軟砂那所以我們現在因為是屬於條例的部分那麼整個具體的這個建案的部分我們會在預算的時候會提出來有一些是我們現在已經可以做一些說明那有一些還不能夠做對外做公開說明那我們這個部分包括不管是這個"},{"start":15022.812,"end":15026.788,"text":"低成本的或者是我們用對外的一個"},{"start":15028.607,"end":15049.898,"text":"採購的方式,不管是低成本我們研發的部分,或者是對外採購的部分我們現在都是屬於我們要努力建構的一個方向感謝寶定,時間關我先問完了,我們再回答第二個問題就是武器,我們需要人力來操作,尤其購買20萬台無人機需要操作跟養護的人員就非常的大我們國軍現在無人機的訓練機構有分為陸海空還有海軍陸戰隊的訓練中心"},{"start":15054.56,"end":15076.961,"text":"目前我們的操作有點是否足夠應對這20萬台無人機的操作如果不足我們國防部預計規劃什麼時候要補足人力另外平時大家各自訓練都沒問題但是如果暫時要支援的時候我們要怎麼樣協同作戰那國防部現在是不是已經規劃讓各種軍種的無人機操作員進行協同作戰那我接下來再繼續問第三個就是說"},{"start":15078.102,"end":15106.908,"text":"我國的這些重要的武器很多都是向美國來採購那過去也發生過因為疫情的關係整個供應鏈中斷還有產能吃緊被迫延遲交貨那像我們2019年的這個採購的66架F16V的這個戰機一直到今年的3月16號才完成第一架的飛行測驗的這個驗證那嚴重影響我們我國的這個軍力的整備3月22號也有媒體說今年會啟動反國那本席就要問說那今年"},{"start":15107.688,"end":15130.918,"text":"什麼時候我們F-16會飛回來台灣那其他沒有交付的武器系統美國什麼時候會交付那接著我會再繼續提到了F-16我就要提到我這個重要的軍事設施絕對是敵方首要攻擊的對象那保存戰力就變得非常的重要那像F-16未來會到我們的治安基地"},{"start":15131.698,"end":15146.5,"text":"那我們也看到說了解國防部現在規劃在治安基地要興建24座新型的這個抗炸的機堡請問目前完成有多少那其他的軍用機場是不是有比照要來興建這樣的防禦的這個機堡那我們"},{"start":15147.702,"end":15168.665,"text":"第五個問題就是之前我們有媒體有報導說是針對外島前線反制無人機的需求政府投入將近10億元的這個採購26套的這個系統由民間的某一個廠商得標但傳出產品未通過驗收軍方要求改善缺點後再行驗收那這個部分改善是不是已經完成這五個部分"},{"start":15170.163,"end":15195.397,"text":"請部長簡單的回答就好簡單就好委員問的問題相當多我是不是先請作記事先就聯合作戰委員好我是作記事長首先感謝委員剛剛所提的這幾個問題正好是我們上禮拜也有做過整體的台灣之盾的提報那同委員所說的我們分作高中低的三層的分層防禦有效的攔截另外也針對"},{"start":15196.758,"end":15209.312,"text":"敵人的威脅就是他用各種形式對我們台灣本島的防衛來進行攻擊的時候當然對於高精密的這些遠程的火力我們會用精準的這個防衛的系統來進行防衛"},{"start":15211.454,"end":15230.846,"text":"對他低價低成本利用無人機等等來對我們進行我們會在各作戰階段當中規劃各種主動被動軟殺硬殺的防護系統來去使我們的部隊還有我們的關鍵基礎設施具有暫時的韌性那就這個作戰應用部分向委員做報告"},{"start":15231.246,"end":15249.445,"text":"好 謝謝因為時間的關係我再問這個就是那這個我剛才提到第四點就是這個基堡部分這個部分是今年要開始規劃在智商暨地堡因為智商暨在我們台東所以我想要了解這個部分報告委員因為在東部的部分花蓮台東我們一直都有您也知道我們一直都有這個"},{"start":15251.287,"end":15277.98,"text":"比較大型的這個地下的算是地下化的這個設施那在各基地也包含台東我們也都有規劃您剛剛提到這個抗2000磅炸彈的這個機庫那24座目前正在進行那另外在其他基地也有相同的工程目前正在進行中我印象中這個機堡都已經很久了我們花那麼多錢買這麼先進的武器結果最後不是被飛彈打掉是被自己的機堡砸壞掉"},{"start":15279.641,"end":15294.749,"text":"這個是抗2000磅的炸彈抗2000磅炸彈的疾苦那部裡面是不是有安排時間也能夠去台東來看一下了解哪些設施需要改善有其他基地正在進行類似的建案那如果有需要的話我們可以一併安排"},{"start":15295.289,"end":15302.234,"text":"提醒我們國防部採購武器一定要符合台灣的作戰需求特別是本席只強調作戰型態的改變以我國現在的經濟情況來看我們一定要建構一套適合我們國防發展的系統"},{"start":15316.104,"end":15331.513,"text":"那這個也就是國民黨為什麼強調就是每一項武器的採購必須依照台海作戰的需求來做採購那更要準時的交付啦那完成我們整個建案的程序這就是為了避免我買到不合適的武器那因為這不單單是"},{"start":15334.495,"end":15352.665,"text":"錢花了還影響到國家的安全那以上這就是本席這次的質詢那也請部長把本席今天提到的問題那在一個一周內那由書面報告來跟本席這邊來回報我們再請我們在會後再請到委員辦公室特別做個說明好不好感謝 感謝 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝黃建斌委員接下來我們請馬文君委員質詢"},{"start":15369.809,"end":15371.311,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長我們請顧部長市委麻煩"},{"start":15382.621,"end":15404.875,"text":"部長今天我們特別看到今天的報告裡面國防部其實也承認近十年以來國防預算在全民以及立法院的支持底下其實都是大幅的調整那根據外媒的報導我們看到台灣制海飛彈密度已經達世界第一"},{"start":15405.936,"end":15420.676,"text":"防空飛彈密度僅次於以色列以達世界第二台灣戰機人均密度戰機數量跟台灣人口比例高高居全球第四平均每八萬人就擁有一架戰機這個話"},{"start":15423.159,"end":15425.1,"text":"主要代表什麼就是代表我們台灣在台灣每八萬國人就要負擔一架戰機的構制那平日它的運行跟維護妥善全民的負荷量高居全世界第四位遠高於聯合國的五常"},{"start":15439.905,"end":15459.476,"text":"現今全世界的軍事強國包括美國俄羅斯中國大陸印度日本韓國以及英法等國家所以我們看到這麼多的預算在大家都可以支持的情況之下而且也是每年越編越高我們可以看到相關的預算在2015年大概3300億左右那到2026年今年已經編列9495億不管你是不是有納入"},{"start":15468.121,"end":15494.329,"text":"NATO裡面他們所謂的相關的預算可是事實上它的運用你們也都是用在這個部分所以我們看到像部長之前你在說我們雖然有一些武器裝備它比較落後交付然後我們其他就不部署嗎 不是因為我們看到我們預算的編列可以很清楚的看到我們沒有因為它所有的交付延宕我們就沒有"},{"start":15496.07,"end":15500.934,"text":"就沒有同意所有的國防預算的支出或是編列反而越編越高可是我們在這一次特別預算為什麼會有一些不同的看法跟意見主要是我們的特別預算其實它已經變成常態化"},{"start":15512.242,"end":15525.491,"text":"甚至有腐爛的狀況因為在過去幾年在民進黨政府執政的這個過程當中我們編列了前瞻特別預算在疫情發生的時候編列了疫情特別的預算在"},{"start":15527.993,"end":15532.897,"text":"將近2500億編列了我們F16V戰機的一個構置然後還有海空戰力提升然後還有剛在幾個月前通過的國防任性預算相關的特別預算等等其實編列非常多可是特別預算編列的主要目的它其實是要有急迫性"},{"start":15551.325,"end":15568.057,"text":"而且是突發性而且又有相當的緊急性可是我們現在變成常態化這是不正常的而且我們騎乘一次編列長達8年可見其實它不是那麼急迫你一口氣要編那麼多我們剛剛看到這些相關的預算如果通通照這樣通過高達2兆以上這是非常多的當時2025年到2027年"},{"start":15575.256,"end":15585.663,"text":"那時候不管是國外或國內所有相關的智庫或者我們很多的意見都說2025到2027年尤其是2027年存在大陸公台最大的風險而且他們也具備公台的能力所以當初要買F16V就是說因為中共建軍100週年所以我們也迅速編列了相關的這些特別預算可是到現在他就是還沒有來不管他在"},{"start":15605.355,"end":15615.523,"text":"在美方的產線是怎麼樣 它就是還沒有來今天我們要的是在這些過程當中 剛剛我們看到的剛剛念到前瞻特別預算 其實它沒有很好的成績我們所有的少子化在很多裡面 它通通有包括我們的智山防洪 這個也都在前瞻特別預算裡面有很多的交通建設也在前瞻預算裡面 它應該要做的 我們沒有看到成果"},{"start":15628.553,"end":15631.193,"text":"所以經過過去的經驗我們很希望我們在有限的預算之下尤其是國防預算在現在面對台海緊張的情勢我們應該要怎麼樣把這個錢用得最謹慎然後用得到位而且真正可以增加我們的戰力我們在說武器沒有交付我們看到有我們的將軍們去上節目的時候他說這是假消息"},{"start":15656.098,"end":15657.422,"text":"如果是假消息應該去對美國抗議因為這是從美國的智庫還有美國的國會講出來的他欠"},{"start":15664.909,"end":15670.474,"text":"就是他延遲交付給我們的高達215億美元這是6800多億的預算不是說你錢給他而是他應該交付而未交付所以這個如果是假消息就去跟美國抗議如果在這個部分我們還要講的因為你們到現在說只有三項延宕不是因為你們有一些更改了其成我舉幾個例子好了"},{"start":15692.373,"end":15697.777,"text":"魚叉飛彈 魚叉飛彈2020年以前已戰備急需 它是插隊立案的原來預計2023年可以陸續抵台服役 2025年全案完成2025年 現在已經2026年 可是原來的預算677億它突然增加189億變成866億 在那時候"},{"start":15716.909,"end":15737.466,"text":"交運的期程也從2025年延到2029年就是說原來他交付的期程本來五年變成十年所以如果他在第九年交你們會對外說他提早一年交可是如果按照我們原來的期程他是慢了四年交這是第一個第二個次增飛彈106年到114年本來我們編了133億餘元要買500枚到114年"},{"start":15745.871,"end":15753.96,"text":"我們又增購了1985枚但它本來應該到期的最後一年我們又增購了1985枚"},{"start":15756.667,"end":15759.569,"text":"他的金額增加到690億從133億增加到690億總計2485枚他的期程也因為增購所以從106年變成到120年那我想請教的是114年的500枚他全來了嗎這是第二個"},{"start":15776.022,"end":15779.405,"text":"第三個愛國者非淡他在96年開始執行I2升級還有I3新構的相關的計畫在107年的時候他本來96年到110年要結案可是我們在109年"},{"start":15793.035,"end":15799.679,"text":"也是到期的前一年 我們又修改建案的文件又增購愛山增城旦 全案延長到116年我現在舉的是幾個比較大項的 這些延長的案子就是你們現在說它沒有延宕 因為你改了時間啊今天如果我們一般人 你們很喜歡講預售屋 今天如果預售屋要交給你了"},{"start":15817.649,"end":15835.863,"text":"結果要叫的時候你還有很多的問題你的水電還沒通然後你就是沒有辦法住你跟我說房子都已經蓋好了那是不對的因為你就是不能住所以當你把騎乘往後延的時候你不能告訴大家說那是假消息或者說其實他是按照騎乘在交付的那是錯的"},{"start":15837.365,"end":15854.419,"text":"這還是對美軍夠 他還是有專案辦公室我們相信有很多主客觀的條件因素他會影響這些可是包括國內的我們延宕的也非常多包括我們的潛艦包括現在有消息披露我們的永英號包括我們的彈藥產線連彈藥產線都延宕然後我們買火藥也延宕"},{"start":15863.687,"end":15866.989,"text":"你現在買不到你就沒有辦法製造這些單要所以像這些問題它在在都會顯現我們戰力會發生非常嚴重的一個缺口而不是我們對預算不支持從過去到現在軍購預算更沒有不支持的狀況"},{"start":15881.677,"end":15905.823,"text":"發生所以這個部分我們請國防部在說明的時候要很務實的去面對今天大家只是希望我們在有限的國防預算底下你一次編了八年我們不知道你要買什麼啊你如果當時因為我們看到你們現在秀出來資料你們在去年十月八月甚至更早之前你們已經知道美國已經有同意哪些可是你們卻不不願意做"},{"start":15907.523,"end":15910.785,"text":"多做說明過去我們在國防外交委員會已經很長的時間只要美國或者我們提出需求的通常會做相關的報告而不是什麼都機密機密不是拿來用來搪塞的所以然後還可以讓立法委員很容易就入罪稍微拿出去然後就馬上告他洩密我們都深受其害所以當你有很"},{"start":15933.12,"end":15937.921,"text":"很確切的像這樣資訊的時候你就必須應該要告訴大家我們現在買的全部都是增購的我剛剛講的次增你們一直在說發酵說我們現在給的這樣金額你不夠我剛剛講次增本來只有130幾億當你要增購的時候馬上變成690億那是倍數增加然後數量也非常多他有碰到困難嗎沒有這個也是軍購"},{"start":15958.286,"end":15961.55,"text":"所以我們現在要的軍購包括海馬士包括其他的你說自走炮也好或者其他的彈藥我們現在都在軍購的程序當中或者剛剛結案所以他不會碰到任何困難如果有困難今天本席在這裡我是這個會期的召委另外一位召委陳委員也在"},{"start":15978.308,"end":15991.773,"text":"如果美方有同意軍售的部分其實我們可以立即安排來做這樣的審查不會延遲我相信在場的所有國防部的相關的官員你們經歷過這麼多剛剛部長也有提到我們軍事採購不是第一次所以不會有你們提到的這些相關的問題我剛剛講的這些你們發酵所都不斷的在修不斷的在修只要他其中"},{"start":16003.297,"end":16011.684,"text":"改了或者金額改了你們發酵說是可以修的啊所以不要讓國人有錯誤的印象這是我們特別要提出來的就這些部分"},{"start":16012.611,"end":16036.196,"text":"部分因為時間的關係我們沒有辦法好好的去討論很多可是就商售的部分因為要買無人機也要買無人艇部長上一次如果有機會我們希望部長還有相關的重要的決策高層可以一起去看看我們過去買的無人機到底是什麼樣子包括像我們的中科院"},{"start":16037.177,"end":16038.097,"text":"從過去 其實它在20年前就開始有科研的發展"},{"start":16044.161,"end":16048.343,"text":"包括我們的尖冰、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞淵、騰雲、劍翔、巡飛彈等等我們科研的經費至少百億以上委託它生產的到目前使用的無人機可能花費也高達國防預算八百億以上可是我們看不到你們這一次編列的二十萬價的預算全部都要買商用的無人機過去花在中科院上面都用到哪裡去了"},{"start":16069.455,"end":16088.482,"text":"那時候來跟我們報告的時候都說我們的成果非常好結果現在全部都要買那個上一次上個會期我們剛去考察的時候我們看到無人機剛買的用我們中科院的反無人機系統鎖定以後三秒沒有誇張我們買那麼貴一架買六十幾萬八十幾萬我問在場的官員他們說"},{"start":16098.326,"end":16111.873,"text":"因為它有抗干擾的能力所以我們買了那麼貴可是它被鎖定以後不到三秒馬上失去自主飛行的能力而且如果沒有把那個移開它可能馬上掉下來所以我們看到我們買到的是什麼樣的無人機如果這些你可以運用在戰場上我們覺得對我們國家是國安是造成非常大的風險"},{"start":16121.158,"end":16147.875,"text":"如果就這些部分我們還有時間一一來探討可是我們今天就整個我們特別條例的部分提出來我們還是希望大家可以客觀的去分析沒有人擋過應該運用的國防預算所以不要把那些責任或者你們沒有做到的全部都歸咎給在野黨的相關的委員今天如果你做得好大家沒有理由不支持可是我們的責任是必須要監督我剛剛說的那些到現在都還沒有做好"},{"start":16150.817,"end":16166.888,"text":"而且有一些還不能用所以我們去年買的反無人機系統還沒有測試通過耶那你們還要編好幾千億去買你在任性預算也有編錢啊內政部的任性預算也有編錢啊我們的公務預算也有編錢啊都要買無人機我們還有時間來討論就這個部分是不是部長要一個簡單的說明"},{"start":16176.036,"end":16189.454,"text":"我想第一個就是說我們就公務預算的限制及編列特別預算的必要性今天在我們的報告的第九頁以下有做一個說明那剛剛委員提到的就是應該是九千多億吧那是"},{"start":16190.575,"end":16209.108,"text":"那事實上就含了我們預估的這個特別預算的部分所以就我剛剛有提到很多細節的部分今天我想剛剛委員花了很多時間做了很多的部分我想我們有機會再跟委員說明我們很希望就這個部分我們很有限的"},{"start":16210.509,"end":16237.243,"text":"國防預算我們應該用在什麼地方應該怎麼樣讓國家更安全應該怎麼樣讓我們所有的國軍弟兄可以更安全這是我們主要的一個目的跟目標所以我們希望朝向這樣來做一個理性的討論而不是用對外放話或者去做其他的說明的時候有扭曲的現象因為我們覺得那是不能接受的所以如果像這樣我們有很多的案例我們希望他是可以好好一步一步務實的面對"},{"start":16238.664,"end":16255.155,"text":"今天如果說我們有做不夠好的我覺得那個都可以去理解我們也願意去接受可是不要想要企圖掩蓋然後把責任都推給其他的在野黨這樣子可能就不太好好不好我們一向都是在做理性的我們希望可以務實啦 謝謝謝謝馬國卿委員 謝謝部長接下來有請陳冠廷 趙偉上台質詢"},{"start":16271.653,"end":16280.624,"text":"謝謝主席我們先請顧部長那如果稍後問到的問題跟其他部會有關可以自行上台"},{"start":16284.238,"end":16303.274,"text":"社長陳偉部長好其實部長今天經過我們國防部的說明以及各個委員們的討論我們大概可以做幾個歸類那首先我們先看一下我們這一次的1.25兆的這個預算那1.25兆預算大概可以分成主要可以分成兩大部分第一個就是對美軍購的部分"},{"start":16304.134,"end":16324.224,"text":"除了我們之前第一波軍購已經通過之外第二波軍購加起來大概是9000億左右那商購與偽製的部分特別是包含無人載具還有中科院的一些偽製案彈藥產線的這些還有一些急缺的彈藥的商購這個部分大概是3000億左右所以兩個部分加起來大概是1.25兆左右"},{"start":16324.924,"end":16353.032,"text":"那剛才我們在稍早的全部的委員們在質詢的部分我們可以看到說包含賴斯堡委員他基本上他是對於九千億八千到九千億的對美軍購他是開始有鬆口來去支持那我必須要跟所有國人同胞講這一次的軍購的這些相關的特別條例他不是零和遊戲那每一次的踏前一步那我就離我們創造共識就接近一步"},{"start":16353.852,"end":16376.754,"text":"但是我還是要講在這一次的特別條例裡面民眾黨跟國民黨兩個在野黨的這一個方面有幾個核心問題那也藉由這個機會跟國人討論一下首先民眾黨的問題是在採購的項目他把金額把數量都寫實在條例當中那這個問題就很明顯的你多彈藥多一發不行少一發也不行"},{"start":16377.375,"end":16393.668,"text":"那其實這是在法律上面法律案上面這樣子去呃去騰寫其實是不太合理的那這個部分接下來的兩天我們希望說可以跟民眾黨溝通再把不可行的部分把它做一個修正那國民黨方面有幾個不可行的部分哦"},{"start":16394.088,"end":16411.347,"text":"首先是他在施行期間他已經把他載名是117年12月31號為止那其實這個在不管是在現行的所有的產線上面這是不可能達到的也是不可能執行的所以這部分我也跟國人同胞報告這個東西是不太難"},{"start":16412.128,"end":16433.244,"text":"無法去執行的這個部分我們會跟國民黨來努力的來討論這是物理上面沒有辦法執行然後第二個部分就是如果沒有在那個時間完成的話甚至完成50%在他們條例裡面我看是第七條他們要送懲戒那這對公務人員是不公平也不符合邏輯的為什麼不符合邏輯因為在產制的部分不是他們負責的"},{"start":16434.065,"end":16461.819,"text":"那充其量我們是在專案的辦公室我們可以用全力來去跟美方溝通那稍早的這個質詢的過程中我們也知道在溝通的過程中一些之前的這個F16相關的戰機他們變成兩班制也就是說美方是完全接收到我們的顧慮而且全力來去協助那我們又看到一個問題就是說我們這一次的整個在軍購的部分國民黨似乎是同意的但是他們就"},{"start":16462.759,"end":16479.661,"text":"在前幾位在野黨的委員就一直在提到說那交付的過程交付的過程是這一個這個要不要先把它關起來先關起來交付的過程它是它交付的過程都會遲緩或者是延遲"},{"start":16481.406,"end":16510.088,"text":"我們是覺得是很無法理解的部分是說那所以他們說要沒有罰則那商購的話你是可以把它放入你的合約裡面有罰則的有賠償金的那你們又反對那所以說在邏輯上面是不對的嘛所以我這個部分還是要跟在野黨的委員們溝通就是說如果你們不要軍購那你們就要商購可是你們要商購的時候又說這個可能會有弊害那你既不要軍購又不要商購的話那我們國軍如何得到最新的裝備"},{"start":16511.149,"end":16535.634,"text":"那現在我想要請教部長的是說如果依照在野島的說法他說 欸 啊 偽製跟商購那你就回到公務預算去編列那會有遇到什麼樣的困境假設按照他們這樣的說法 可不可以請部長簡單的來說明一下就整體的一個需求的問題嘛我們在報告裡面說明了就是說我們並不是把所有的事情都放到特別預算"},{"start":16536.636,"end":16561.694,"text":"我們現在持續性的一個案件的數量我們包括未來三年要的一個交易付款的高峰期跟我們現在擺在公務預算能夠新增的一些案項事實上是非常有限的所以現在說軍購案他們現在會同意只要完成智慧國會的程序"},{"start":16562.366,"end":16573.625,"text":"那麼那是同樣邏輯反面推論就是說那他同意將軍購案放入特別預算那麼那同樣的道理我們如果這個偽製案跟我們的商購案也是符合我們的"},{"start":16574.778,"end":16603.295,"text":"整體的作戰需求的那我們也希望在這一個年度預算的這個限制之外我們能夠編列相當的一個特別預算來強化我們的來不對稱戰力跟我們的防衛人性然後一次性的來這一個讓我們能夠做一個長期比較能夠資源集中這個規模穩定的這樣子的一個籌建可視戰力的一個機會其實是不分軍購商售"},{"start":16603.815,"end":16626.636,"text":"或者是偽製的重點是在於當我們這個條例通過之後我們一再講條例通過之後我們還要把預算案送進來那大家可以來檢視這一個預算案每一個的項目是不是符合我們現在有講的規劃的整體戰力的一個需求嗎那如果是符合的而沒有辦法在公務預算"},{"start":16628.649,"end":16657.643,"text":"年度的公務預算把它消化的話那麼我們就應該要能夠接受我們用特別預算的方式因為我們已經在報告裡面已經有提到了我們的這一個年度的預算在未來我們還有包括了不管是天建二型的飛彈天空三型的續購案陸射艦二的續購案雄厚雄大航艦飛彈的續購案這些續購案都是我們沒有要擺到特別預算我要擺到年度預算裡面去"},{"start":16658.763,"end":16681.919,"text":"所以整體的規劃我們用這個專報做一個完整的說明從這個整體的防空這個飛彈防禦到這個聯合反登陸到聯合國土作戰這個部分做一個完整的規劃那我們認為要擺入特別預算他有他的這個整體性的一個考量那沒有辦法再這樣子用"},{"start":16683.375,"end":16711.485,"text":"這樣幾十億幾十億的這樣的規模擺入這個年度公務預算裡面去慢慢的進行籌建那這個是我們現在面對敵情威脅的一個要提出特別預算的一個最基本的理由那接下來當然大家可以來討論哪些預算案是應該是可以擺入這個特別預算那不要先天的只認為說只有軍購案可以擺入那這個商購案不能擺入,委資案不能夠擺入"},{"start":16713.329,"end":16734.888,"text":"那這個邏輯我沒有辦法能夠理解啊那我們也有經過按百路公務預算的啊那這個到底應該是說我們要我們要有一個建構可是站立的一個整體的規劃那大家來檢視嘛沒錯我最後做個結語那其實剛才"},{"start":16736.069,"end":16755.001,"text":"很多委員都已經提到這是一個法律的條例那預算之後我們可以一個一個的細細的審查可以刪可以剪可以動可是在這個條例當中他就已經有把上限把它規劃出來了這一切都已經經過在國保部審議不慣的在裡面去討論過那也跟很多委員都已經討論過了"},{"start":16756.562,"end":16779.049,"text":"一再的把這個條例當成是這個預算案在討論我覺得這對整體的議程進程會是有傷害的而且裡面最重要的是包含我們的偽製商購無痕載具在中東的戰場也好或者是在俄羅斯烏克蘭的戰場也好就已經被證明是有效且必要的載具那我們現在不但沒有把它列入那快速去應變時間是不會等人的"},{"start":16780.709,"end":16797.784,"text":"我們不可以依照說2027年所以我們現在就開始建軍就只是為了2027年因為我們不知道對方何時何地要發起對台灣的侵擾跟攻擊我們能夠做的就是確保上我們現在此時此刻能夠做最好的準備包含這些無人載具 三千多億不管是在國內的產線也好"},{"start":16798.865,"end":16818.838,"text":"他不是只是攻擊型包含擒尖針我們現在你又買了海馬仕但是如果沒有無人載具在旁邊獲取這個目標那得到這些擒之再轉交給AI輔助讓我們做好執行去打擊的話那我們要的這些東西只是單點單點一個武器的獲得沒有辦法獲得到打擊的能力或者是防禦的能力"},{"start":16819.298,"end":16832.068,"text":"所以說三千多億無能載具跟其他軍購、偽製或者是商購全部都是整體的震懾力就是要震懾中國這也對台灣來講它才是最好的震懾力好,謝謝部長好,謝偉謝謝關廷超外,謝謝部長"},{"start":16842.662,"end":16850.924,"text":"接下來有請王世堅委員王世堅 王世堅委員王世堅委員不在 接下來有請郭國文委員上台質詢謝主席 有請主席處陳副主席長"},{"start":16878.3,"end":16896.57,"text":"這次的特別預算的討論過程當中有兩項的爭議一個是有關於社福排擠或不排擠或者預算的編列方式的問題本席稍微了解一下按照我們今年度的公預算的支出總共是3,715億的情況以下舉債上千為4,607億扣除掉已舉債的2,992億的話剩下舉債的無度是1,615億"},{"start":16904.654,"end":16928.129,"text":"那國民黨一直講說軍購會排擠到民生排擠到社福啦那我稍微算了一下我們最近所推出的這個八大津貼的這個部分的話如果算起來的話到7月1號開始調漲的話約莫大概要追加預算是215.4億即便回溯到1月1號的部分的話也不過是364.9億這種情況底下應該還在取債的範圍吧"},{"start":16933.735,"end":16934.545,"text":"不會有排擠的問題吧"},{"start":16935.552,"end":16961.444,"text":"是 首先跟委員報告就是說有關我們社會福利的部分都是在年度預算那我們今天這個軍購的部分是在特別條例所以它兩個是不同的體系那特別預算有自己個別另外財源的規劃所以它不會衝擊到社福的部分那有關社福就是說剛剛委員所提的如果是7月開始實證的話215億甚至或追溯全年"},{"start":16964.745,"end":16987.226,"text":"那基本上我們行政院在規劃這些社會福利的相關的這些措施的時候我們盤點以後都還是有能力控制在我們舉債的上限範圍內可能要注意一下就是說在野黨他基本上還有一些不負責任的加碼還有不願意審總預算的情況底下恐怕才是讓這些弱勢團體領不到一個關鍵的原因嘛對不對"},{"start":16989.188,"end":17007.693,"text":"那回到剛剛在預算編列上面一個很重要的關鍵在藍與白的這個版本當中都把項目限制在這個發價數的一個項目的部分而將這個國內這個委資的部分還有商購的部分予以排除把它放在想要放在公務預算可是如果編載年度的公務預算的話它會牽扯到兩個問題一個是時間的問題一個是舉債的問題"},{"start":17013.055,"end":17031.605,"text":"因為時間的問題的話很多公共預算要提早一年前編訂那就算用追加預算的部分也要有一定的流程所以很多軍購案其實簽了一項書之後都要等美國國會的這個通過在公佈前是本來就不能講的那過去其實在國民黨執政的時候的軍購也是一樣的這個流程"},{"start":17032.325,"end":17053.619,"text":"所以說是不是如果透過這種編列 每年編列的方式在時間上會造成一種壓力 會造成美國一種疑慮也會認為沒有決心購買 會順位而會往後拉也會擔心到我們戰力會形成一個缺口這是一個可能性 時間上是不是一個問題第二個舉債的部分 如果它全部都擠在這一個所謂的這個公預算的話這個8年 這個8年的話 用8700億來分配的話"},{"start":17058.482,"end":17061.765,"text":"平均就要再舉債1000又會破剛剛我們舉債的15%上限這兩個會不會造成這樣的問題 副局長"},{"start":17065.177,"end":17090.72,"text":"是跟我們說明就是的確就是說基本上我們這個透過這個我們以往就是說軍購的部分我們都是一次編列多年期的預算主要就是能夠整體的規劃就是說整個配套是所以一定要採取特別預算確保對尤其是跟美方這樣在"},{"start":17091.34,"end":17106.6,"text":"所以說用年度預算跟作家預算都沒有辦法用以此別列的方式所以必須採取特別預算一個關鍵的原因嘛對不對 副縣長是的 然後如果年度預算因為它就必須符合年度的舉債的上限那這個基本上在安排上就會有它的困難"},{"start":17107.406,"end":17128.074,"text":"所以依照目前我們台灣的這個財政能力財政紀律也好不論是這一個我們的GDP可以達到一兆美元來說或者中央負債比只有24.3的情況底下我們在財政能力的話完全是沒有這個問題但是如果沒有一次編組的話可能就會形成一個戰略的缺口這個部分我就要請教一下那個部長有請一下顧部長"},{"start":17134.972,"end":17161.401,"text":"是我們今天的專報裡面就特別我們本來說這個專報的角度要怎麼寫所以我們在討論過程當中我們就是要從一個強化防衛作戰整體效能這個部分來做說明我講在書面上資料部長你們寫的非常清楚吧第二三頁的部分為什麼要這樣編列非常清楚我想這個部分之外我想要就教部長一個事情因為最近臉書有在公布說金融時報的部分在3月21號"},{"start":17163.281,"end":17177.756,"text":"有一個標題就是台灣憂慮美國對伊朗戰士飛彈的存量消耗會影響到未來台海衝突的嚇阻能力然後發言的人又是一個匿名的國防部的官員這個部分是不是代表國防部的立場"},{"start":17183.548,"end":17207.275,"text":"目前為止我們跟美方一直保持密切協調,我們採購的MSD...我只是在求證於說這個部分是不是屬於我們國防部官員對外表示是國防部擔心的地方啊也就是說文章裡頭寫到說空對地的這個飛彈跟戰斧飛彈的一個消耗美國在伊朗戰爭消耗的這個存量無法快速匿補上,會不會對台海造成風險"},{"start":17208.055,"end":17233.071,"text":"我想那個是他的一個評估他現在講的是空對地的巡弋飛彈也就是對地打擊飛彈的這個部分那事實上依我個人的理解美軍他在全球部署他不會把所有的東西都放在一個地方就給他用完他還是要針對戰區裡面會擬定他所需要的最基於因為美軍的存量到底多少其實是大家看不到的"},{"start":17233.291,"end":17262.201,"text":"那是不是有這種擔心因為有一個匿名的國防部官員這麼說我要求證於部長的原因是這個地方因為既然已經被臉書已經一直在傳播了是不是需要做一定程度的澄清這是第一個問題啦第二個問題這件事情也凸顯出來我們特別條例當中在美軍軍購的一個很重要的重點也就是偽製的部分跟商購的部分它其實包括這個天空飛彈也好或者是包括無人機也好攻擊型的無人機也好這基本上"},{"start":17262.901,"end":17290.399,"text":"就是在對應這種事情的情況底下如果我們有自主生產的話那基本上就不用太過依賴美國他在國防的這個存量的問題是不是這樣的情況更凸顯說這商購的部分跟我們偽製的部分的關鍵性是不是應該從這個部分來切入來說明會比較妥適一點 部長就是國防自主優先對啊就是說從整體的韌性上來看我們能夠越不依賴外國"},{"start":17291.36,"end":17307.701,"text":"那當然我們的國防自主能力的提升絕對是對我們作戰任性跟作戰戰力的提升是有幫忙的但是有一些我們確實沒有辦法能夠產生出來我們才是軍購所以國防自主優先現在反而會被排去排到這個後面說"},{"start":17308.522,"end":17326.87,"text":"國防自主不重要這件事情我也沒辦法理解所以我們我剛剛已經一再講特別是就無人載具的這個部分我們要掌握這個排除紅色供應鏈然後我們來扶植國內無人載具產業鏈發展來提升我們國防自主能力來降低資訊安全的威脅這是我們應該要首要做的地方"},{"start":17327.11,"end":17346.286,"text":"是,對,部長,我意思是說,依照現在整個伊朗的情勢來說,我們自主國防反而更加的重要,應該是從這個部分來發言,對國民來說比較安心,對整個特別預算的通過會比較有幫助,所以以上我可以對您的建議,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝郭國文委員,接下來我們請鄭正前委員。"},{"start":17358.061,"end":17360.623,"text":"謝謝主席 我想請一下顧部長是 政委部長好 我相信大部分的國人應該都很支持我們要增加台灣的安全 要提升國防我想這部分沒有問題可是我想說國防要強 監督也不能少因為我在想說我們花這麼多錢"},{"start":17383.724,"end":17409.698,"text":"都是民脂民膏那我們其實要真正提升我們要買到的是台灣的一個戰力而不是可能產生新的風險或者是買到一些新的爭議或者甚至一些買到一些可能的一些弊案我想這都是我們所不希望的那為什麼我們會覺得說之前我會覺得說支持軍購的部分那嚴審商購的部分嚴審商購的部分其實就是因為之前有很多可能疑似弊案的部分都在軍購"},{"start":17410.839,"end":17432.788,"text":"的過程當中 包括比如說服賣就是就是裝修公司可以變成軍火商或者說很小的一個貿易公司他剛轉成做軍火交易的時候馬上就可以標到國防部的一個案子等等的一個情況我想這是我們會有點擔心的部分那因為今天其實我想說針對國防部今天所提出的一個報告"},{"start":17434.108,"end":17454.723,"text":"分成了從整體的防空及飛彈防禦還有聯合反登陸的部分還有聯合國土防衛跟持續能量整備的部分四個部分來講我覺得某個部分講得算清楚可是有幾個部分我還是要特別提到因為它裡面有一個地方特別提到說我們115年度的軍事投資預算要1616億元可是今年要"},{"start":17456.064,"end":17480.342,"text":"就是持續性的案子就有1532億元所以可以新增的額度只有84億元於是呢就是因為年度預算放不下所以要變成特別預算這是你們在報告裡面特別提到的部分那針對這部分的時候我再想一個情況是特別預算它肯定不是因為就是年度預算放不下就用特別預算來做那我們直接來看一下我們常態預算特別預算"},{"start":17481.342,"end":17503.372,"text":"這分得很清楚法定當中的時候常態預算是例行性可預見的特別預算是具有急迫性跟例外性的突發需求對不對那這當中的時候監督的狀態會不一樣所以我們這次正在特別條例當中我們很特別關心的是我們要買什麼東西我們要怎麼買然後誰來負責責任歸屬要怎麼去做那目前我們看到的狀態特別預算當中的時候呢"},{"start":17504.592,"end":17528.272,"text":"監督的機制事實上是相對低的那我知道很多委員特別提到如果說我們在很多委員都有提到說就是有關於所謂的空白授權的部分那我知道部長對這部分很介意你特別提到說我們條例的部分之後還有個特別預算這邊可以去把關可是事實上條例通過了之後我們在預算當中的時候坦白說它的監督的"},{"start":17529.053,"end":17531.255,"text":"強度就沒有那麼強所以這是為什麼我們從條例當中的時候我們就會非常的詳細的去看這個部分那國防部目前狀況的時候呢我們看到感覺很像是要用常態的預算來為特別預算這邊來做一個"},{"start":17546.145,"end":17572.772,"text":"常態預算不夠要用特別預算來補充那我們就會覺得他可能是透過特別預算的名義要來規避逐年審查那麼針對這個部分我想說我們針對短期急迫戰備需求跟中長期的建制這個部分就是很清楚的有提到一個部分因為我們現在這個特別條例把整個短期的急迫戰備需求跟中長期的建制全部都綁在一起那我個人認為這部分其實是有可能是可以分開來的"},{"start":17574.332,"end":17592.692,"text":"短期急迫的我們用特別預算沒有問題大家都支持可是中長期建制的部分的時候納入特別預算是不是適當我覺得這部分必須要好好去討論一下那在這當中的時候我發現報告當中很清楚提到了20餘萬架的一個無人機艇的部分還有14條的兵工廠這可能是軍備局這邊要用的部分"},{"start":17593.452,"end":17611.368,"text":"我們對於這個部分是不是要用特別預算整個去把它包裹起來我覺得這部分其實可能是有待商榷的地方可不可以請部長這邊簡單做一個回應因為我們認為短期的急迫戰備需求跟中長期的建制事項應該要分開來處理您怎麼看"},{"start":17613.706,"end":17639.015,"text":"我想就我們為什麼要10條的兵工產線的這個部分,涉及到我們相關的這個資源的一個配置的部分,是不是請他們做一個?報告委員我們先解釋說明一下,就是14條產線的這個部分是因應敵情威脅陡峰,我們必須把我們的整個戰備存量從30天提高到120天,那未來除了這些"},{"start":17640.177,"end":17658.736,"text":"儲物量要提高之外未來因為我們訊號增加的關係也必須去有足夠的產線才能夠去做所以我們給這些產線它建置的時間不會是一個長期的因為這邊的時候跟彈藥有關的部分跟敵火有關那敵火目前就是印度跟中國這產量特別大"},{"start":17659.156,"end":17677.806,"text":"那這個部分主席再給我三分鐘我把最後一個問題提出來那請部長之後事後在本辦公室做一個說明因為你在報告第四頁當中特別提到了一個要有AI戰場管理系統這個部分要連結過去未來所有的防空針尖的系統那這個部分"},{"start":17678.846,"end":17694.055,"text":"本席這邊他認為他這應該是個中心化的一個AI系統在第六頁當中這邊就提到一個要有一個去中心化的一個指管能力的一個AI輔助決策這兩個部分同時存在沒有問題可是本席對於這個部分因為"},{"start":17695.155,"end":17715.789,"text":"國防部的這個部分AI的體系當中的時候我們的通訊還有算力要怎麼去做處理然後另外我們這樣子的一個案子是要找美國來做還是要在國內去發包然後像針對這樣的一個部分它一個成長型的過程當中我們是不是用逐年去編列這樣的預算會比較妥適可以請部長做一個簡單的一個回應"},{"start":17717.19,"end":17737.251,"text":"如果時間有限的話 之後再到本辦公室來做一個說明對 我想第一個就是說增建產線的部分剛剛我們市長講的以外我們主要是考量到我們運用既有的生活基金它一年能夠用的四億多 這個是不足的所以我們才希望有一個快速來一次性有一個"},{"start":17737.851,"end":17753.647,"text":"增建來擴增我們的戰備存量然後加強我們的韌性那有關AI的相關的這些部分呢我們現在在報告裡面所提到的我們相關的這些包括戰場的管理系統AI的輔助決策系統等等的他牽涉到範圍確實是蠻廣的那這個部分的建築"},{"start":17758.471,"end":17787.066,"text":"國防部要建立自己的大圓模型建立我們自己的一個算力中心來處理這樣子的一個問題嗎我們沒有我們沒有擺在這一次的特別預算裡面但是我想這個部分如果有必要的時候我們會納入我們的年度預算裡面做一個需求這樣OK好謝謝謝謝謝謝鄭振琴委員接下來我們請王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員不在接下來我們請徐巧欣委員"},{"start":17794.497,"end":17796.939,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請顧立雄 顧部長我們請顧部長需要用嗎"},{"start":17805.653,"end":17831.662,"text":"部長好 這個禮拜我們開始審查國防軍購相關的條例當然包含行政院有院版的民眾黨跟國民黨都各有版本接下來禮拜三禮拜四的時候會進行審查也算是有一個進度我想我們都是支持能夠厚植國防實力只是說在這個幾個版本上面看得出來大家對於要怎麼樣去編列有不同的看法"},{"start":17832.302,"end":17850.253,"text":"那國民黨呢跟民眾黨的版本相似度是比較高的就是說編列的這個邏輯比較相似那第一個對美國的部分呢是採購用特別條例那其他的部分也並不是不支持而是說如果有需要的話可以回歸到一般預算的編列"},{"start":17851.033,"end":17872.211,"text":"那第二个呢是如果得到美国政府这个包含是国会授权的相关军售项目那立刻列入那如果有第二波的话那后续也都可以再追加第三点呢就是相关的一些期程规划那可能要要求清楚的说明那在立法院的监督责任这个部分呢是描述比较多的"},{"start":17872.671,"end":17891.056,"text":"所以說雖然它是看起來比較保守那當然因為這次軍購條例本來這個行政院版的這個金額是非常高高達1.25兆所以從監督的角度來講的話確實會比較保守但是像是一些未來就目前沒有在這個寫在民眾黨或國民黨版本裡面的並不代表"},{"start":17891.516,"end":17915.95,"text":"他不重要並不代表台灣不需要我們舉個例子C55SR這個東西其實對台灣而言是必要的那我們也同意只是說那我們的編列方式現在目前法條的寫法會變成等到可能這個第二波或者是美國有相關授權之後再寫進來那這方面我想國防部跟我們的國民黨民眾黨的看法不一樣這個我都能夠尊重但是呢其實"},{"start":17916.95,"end":17932.102,"text":"因為都還是按照實際的需求台灣的需求進行審查所以最近最後他是勢必一定會趨近於這個需求的那我前面講這麼多呢也是想要了解一下就是這個部長這裡有沒有跟"},{"start":17933.464,"end":17956.995,"text":"行政院這邊溝通過就因為畢竟現在立法院的多數是民眾黨國民黨那也很有可能到時候通過的版本是比較趨近於我剛剛講的這個方向那如果是這樣子的話那請問一下我們會按照這樣通過的法律做執行嗎比方說我先問第一個就是會有考慮說提出復議嗎"},{"start":17959.518,"end":17979.696,"text":"我想我沒有辦法幫行政院在這個地方做回答是 那你們沒有你們沒有討論過是這樣子是吧我們國防部的立場當然還是希望我們通過我知道 那我的意思我當然知道你們我剛剛所以我前面講這麼久嘛你們沒在聽我前面的意思就是說你 我知道我們的這個對於編列的看法大家有不一樣的地方那不一樣在哪裡"},{"start":17980.456,"end":18001.789,"text":"但是我也告訴你一個政治上的現實是在在野黨這邊來說的話我們在立法院的人數比較多所以我想我必須要了解一下今天如果是按國民黨民眾黨這種方向的類似這樣的方向可能台灣的話會再有一些變動這樣方向的編列方式去進行的話會不會不附屬啊"},{"start":18002.429,"end":18025.187,"text":"或者是會不會提出復議 或者會不會送釋憲因為這個在我們審查的時候其實也有可能是一個蠻重要的一個就是大家必須要有討論的因為如果今天我們現在是有急扣訊的需求但是通過了這樣的版本 最後它不附屬的話那對整體的我們的國防實力會造成一個很大的影響那如果說其實按照這樣的方向去"},{"start":18026.549,"end":18050.106,"text":"編列寫了這個條例之後通過了也一樣能夠有後續的預算編列讓他能夠上路一部分的話那這也不失為一種辦法所以我很想知道就算部長您今天不一定能夠回答我但是這個問題我覺得是蠻重要就是如果按照目前在野的編列方向這個角度來看的話會不會有不附屬的可能性啊"},{"start":18050.99,"end":18067.764,"text":"我跟委包括我實在沒有辦法因為這是院長的權責我沒有辦法幫院長在這個時候回答您剛剛所提問的問題是 我可以了解但是你們會再去跟他做討論嗎還是說你會等到通過之後才去做討論"},{"start":18069.205,"end":18078.914,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在條例一件事預算是一件事那條例我們當然是希望按照我們國務院的條例才有所謂的複議啊不附屬啊 釋憲的問題嘛預算就不是這樣啊這個條例的部分我要問的是這一點啊"},{"start":18084.538,"end":18099.807,"text":"這是一個你不要覺得我提前問你了因為這很關鍵就是說如果按照這樣的編列方式那會不會有不附屬的結果的話那當然這個壓力上面來說大家也都要再一次的去討論說那該怎麼做比較好嗎"},{"start":18100.707,"end":18119.794,"text":"這個到後續政黨協商的時候或許也是有一個空間存在所以說我才會問這個問題那我知道您剛剛的回答就是說這個是行政院的決定所以你現在不知道但我會建議我會建議這其實是我的一個建議說可能要提早跟行政院這邊來做一個商議然後呢有機會的話能夠讓我們先知道"},{"start":18122.495,"end":18144.492,"text":"因為大家都是站在一個能夠讓國防實力後直的這個角度然後呢讓這個法三讀通過之後能夠有效的然後立刻對我們的國防實力產生幫助的這個前提之下所以我才覺得這個問題是重要的那現在你沒有辦法回答我沒關係齁那這個但是它是重要的你們如果想要解決這個問題的話還是要務實的來面對喔那好那這個先這樣子"},{"start":18149.136,"end":18177.704,"text":"那另外要問一個比較簡單的就是說呢這個我先前也問過有關於軍售的部分那個川普他因為有習近平的這個會談所以他講到說呢這個川習會那會討論台灣軍售先前我就提過了這個是違反了我們的六項保證裡面的第二項保證沒有經過同意就把對台軍售的議題向中華人民共和國徵詢意見那在這一點上面國防部有什麼要表達的嗎"},{"start":18179.435,"end":18184.961,"text":"我想我們跟美方之間對於軍售從一開始的一個聯繫"},{"start":18187.778,"end":18211.466,"text":"也就包括他們願意有初步的供售意願到後來有表示願意供售我們才拒以編列那我想這個就我們了解美方迄今的態度沒有改變那我們也持續跟美方會進行溝通不是啊 可是川普確實他提到了他要跟這個習近平去談台灣的軍售談完才會做決定那這個有沒有違反六項保證的第二項保證嗎"},{"start":18212.226,"end":18239.794,"text":"我想六項保證裡面有一個重點就是說對於我們依據台灣關係法來進行對我們的防衛性武器的提供不會不會不會來說要不要取得這個中華人民共和國的同意我想在這一點上面我不認為美方的態度有任何的改變你覺得川普這樣講也不算是態度上有改變你覺得川普這樣講是在六項保證上面是符合能夠符合第二項的是嗎"},{"start":18240.914,"end":18260.136,"text":"沒有違反第二項這個川普的說法沒有違反第二項保證他跟中方那邊這邊的討論我現在沒有辦法進一步評論我只能夠說依循這個六項保證不會就我們的軍售的部分才取得中華人民共和國的同意"},{"start":18260.196,"end":18281.481,"text":"可是這是他公開講的嘛這個所有新聞然後在他的這個真實社群上面都有啊他上面寫的內容就是他強調說他正在跟習近平討論未來對台軍售的事情他沒有提到說這個要取得中華人民共和國的同意習近平不算是中華人民共和國就是沒有他並沒有說他要取得中華人民共和國的同意"},{"start":18281.741,"end":18295.67,"text":"討論OK 你的意思是這樣討論台灣的軍售OK不用取得對方同意就沒有違反六項保證我沒有辦法很清楚的說川普跟習近平的通話的內容我這是川普講的嘛說明的是根據六項保證"},{"start":18298.311,"end":18325.347,"text":"的內容來看美方不變的政策時間到了但是我對您的回覆是非常失望的因為當川普他講到說他要跟習近平討論對台灣軍售的事情我認為中華民國的立場在這件事情上就是要強硬的態度那不能因為他今天是美方然後我們就覺得說算了沒關係或者說不能去評論什麼的我覺得不是這樣子我們就應該要要求美方按照六項保證裡面的每一項而不是被他一一突破 謝謝"},{"start":18329.209,"end":18347.974,"text":"好謝謝許草星委員接下來我們請洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員不在已登進執詢委員逐步在場外均已發言門閉報告及詢答結束本日會議由林大華委員 代會員委員 王洪威委員 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賴委員不能找那個F16V是不是今年開始交捐預計我們今年可以交交多台 要多少台"},{"start":30.236,"end":45.315,"text":"我們現在還沒有辦法做一個精確的估算可是不是什麼安檢都已經測試了啊說到現在可以交了大概什麼時候交第三劑是不是"},{"start":46.67,"end":71.058,"text":"預估第三季第三季可以交運返台所以我們大概九月份可以看到第一架是不是這個意思現在預估預估可以所以這也沒有確定所以這個來講那MQ-9V什麼時候交第三季也是第三季所以這個就看到這兩天的新聞物件一直來就是為了今天"},{"start":72.23,"end":76.734,"text":"大家都知道某種程度這也是一個認知作戰我請教你這句話對不對說我們已經交了錢六千億的武器沒有交是不是對不對就對了不對怎麼講你講我想這個部分是不是請站規師已經回答很多次了"},{"start":95.241,"end":114.785,"text":"我們所有的案子,不論是軍購或商購,我們都是依據執行進度去付款,也就是我們每年會編列預算,很多個年度的預算一次一次付所以不是像媒體上面寫的,那些案子的總額六千億,我們就一次付了六千億,所以從來沒有這種事"},{"start":115.205,"end":120.209,"text":"但是這是玩文字遊戲就是換一句話說我要強調的雖然你們在這裡講過我也問過你們講說事實上是三千億可是看帳怎麼算你們要等於把到貨期往後延所以那個就沒有交所以不是說我這樣講好了不是說我交錢交了六千億我交了三千億沒有交券對吧但是還有三千億你還沒給錢對吧 我這樣講對吧"},{"start":145.063,"end":146.744,"text":"我這樣講對不對嘛你又回答我嘛我這樣對不對就是我已經交了錢有3000億沒有來但是我另外我要買的項目還有3000億我錢還沒有交他當然沒有來我這樣講對不對"},{"start":160.653,"end":183.786,"text":"我想這個過去已經講過很多次就是說我們現在買的二十幾項的武器裝備有提前交易有準時交易那還沒有的主要就是三個一個F-16那您剛質疑的第二個就是Mk-48的重巡儀類那第三個就是AGM-154這個大概三個部分有遲延那加起來多少錢F-16的部分"},{"start":185.826,"end":193.868,"text":"這三個加起來多少錢?APP16的部分均購款是2400億元左右然後已經付了1490億元左右然後呢?然後AGM1547買56枚大概是60億左右的按款但是目前因為預約還沒有全部完成所以只付了1億多的先期準備款"},{"start":210.293,"end":224.1,"text":"然後重型魚雷的部分兩個案子加起來是1.77億美金左右一樣我們前面只有大概付了3億多台幣的初期準備款"},{"start":227.008,"end":230.413,"text":"你沒有回答我的問題我剛剛講的就對不對你可以講我講錯沒關係嘛你就在這裡我剛剛講的是說我們現在說是錢已經交了沒有交券的三千億另外有三千億我錢還沒有交"},{"start":244.974,"end":248.736,"text":"錢還沒有給錢還沒有給嘛 對嗎 交易一樣的意思我沒有給 那是三千億嘛 對不對我這樣講對不對 這一句話對不對報告員也不對好 那你給我糾正一下是多少我們先回到那個卡通你給我講 因為我時間有限 你就告訴我好 已經交錢的有多少錢沒有來還沒有交的有多少錢 就這樣子再把三個交起來"},{"start":271.96,"end":277.736,"text":"包委員為了數字精確的關係我們這邊建議我們匯整一份資料給您"},{"start":279.298,"end":300.354,"text":"因為剛剛他已經大致上講了就是說大概MAC48的魚雷然後加AGM154再加這個F16B那這個當然還是有美金計價的然後再折算成台幣這是一點那第二點大概相關三個數字他剛剛大概都已經說明了你剛才講美金計價一個六十億六十億台幣就是超兩千億啊對不對沒有沒有沒有沒有六十億你剛講不是六十億嗎那你再重複一遍"},{"start":309.782,"end":321.144,"text":"AGM1547是60億左右的台幣台幣喔 你剛剛講美金和台幣60億台幣 還有一點多億一點多億是美金 然後一點77億是魚壘重點是美金吧對 是美金 對嘛 還有另外一個一點多億是美金 對所以就有差不多3億美金左右嘛就差不多100億左右嘛100億加60億 160億嘛 你又這樣精準講就這個意思吧 巴偉我們還是先給你一個統計資料"},{"start":339.841,"end":343.366,"text":"好不好 這個儘快給我們來 現在看到這個中東打仗了美國有沒有可能跟我們借愛國者飛彈我們目前沒有接獲任何相關這樣的一個訊息所以他不需要"},{"start":357.351,"end":364.894,"text":"我們沒有被揭霍有任何需要你難道不會擔心我們現在編的預算又有賣愛國者飛彈愛國者飛彈美國在中東打得差不多了他還有愛國者飛彈賣我們嗎難道你不會擔心這個嗎"},{"start":373.038,"end":394.149,"text":"我們現在也沒有接貨任何因為我們現在還有續購的那個愛國者的飛彈現有我們當時用捷運款買的一百零二枚的飛彈那這個部分他也沒有說要表示要遲延交付所以準時交卷我們現在只能說沒有接貨任何有關遲延交付的訊息好 最後一點部長我在這裡很慎重提出來其實大家都了解這次其實就是"},{"start":402.338,"end":414.301,"text":"我覺得名稱應該用用這個B黨的啦加強國防及對美採購全部都對美採購啊畢業正名夫就是對美採購我們的版本是3800億加N這個N現在出現什麼時候出現什麼時候加上去因為媒體報導啦不是嗎只不過美國政府還沒有最後確認"},{"start":430.848,"end":432.189,"text":"他要再賣140億美金有人講150億那就差不多4500億台幣加上去就8000多"},{"start":438.869,"end":444.252,"text":"這個加收去8000多啊那你的一點澳照其實加了很多都是國內採購這一部分我覺得應該要放在一般的預算裡面跟委員報告像強攻的這個反戰術彈道飛彈的這個系統就是我們委託中科研製作的我想這個部分也是我們整體防攻那個放在年度預算可以啊放在年度預算可以啊"},{"start":466.69,"end":481.135,"text":"我想委員應該有知道我們之前就有強化這個海空戰力特別提升的一個特別計畫那個也是我們這個特別條例裡面我們希望能夠有一個穩定的預算來源來強化海空戰力那麼強攻這個戰術彈道飛彈這個也是重要的一點澳照我們不可能給一點澳照啦"},{"start":489.478,"end":509.288,"text":"那現在這個3800加NN已經出現差不多隱約出現所以就有8000多億了將近9000億了這個數字我個人支持另外就是無論國人載具的部分希望各位委員能夠支持因為我們希望能夠資源集中預算穩定的銀行之下能夠建立我們的國防自主產能"},{"start":512.99,"end":522.838,"text":"這個放年度預算都可以我們今年度要省的預算是增加三千億的國防預算我們希望有一個規模性的需求來強化我們的國防資格這個東西啊能夠把它匡列啊你這個三千八加NN已經出現出現的時候就八千多億了這個我個人是支持的我就講我是支持的你要珍惜我的支持喔"},{"start":540.191,"end":544.934,"text":"欸 這個東西否則就是只有三千八喔 我想這個N出現了只要美國要賣 華家是不是來 我們需要的這兩個條件都滿足 我支持 就這樣子部長 你要珍惜喔 珍惜這樣的講法 其他的你要發展無人機沒有人反對 那個都可以放在年度預算啦"},{"start":563.303,"end":566.066,"text":"否則你就特別一算你要去給我們不是說不扶持國內的國防工業啦馬桶的裝修都來沒有道理啦工程會要跟著去修法更沒有道理好 謝謝賴世寶委員"}]}},{"id":"167755","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167755","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a8d3ec2c6f133b61ae6927793779d72c5eedb258d1c0d1ac015ecab491915b16c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:46:00 - 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有請彭主委"},{"start":13.462,"end":38.879,"text":"我們今天要討論這個虛擬資產業者的這個專法之前本席想要先跟您對話的有關於這個金融科技業的這個分流的一個概念跟合流的一個問題也就是說呢其實我們在前年的時候有去日本的時候去參觀的相關業者主要的部分包括GMO跟SBI這兩個集團"},{"start":40.66,"end":55.867,"text":"這兩個集團的時候我們有把它制度面引進到台灣來有一定程度的一個制度的一個參考方式可是對照於日本跟台灣之間的一個概念來說台灣目前的這個金融科技業的部分是採取一種很分流的狀況"},{"start":57.228,"end":72.965,"text":"這個分的過程當中呢卻又有大搶小小搶更小而且這種開放式的方式又是單向的方式那以至於現階段來說我們看到有一些電子支付業者本身有十家"},{"start":73.726,"end":97.696,"text":"然後呢因為我們又開放了銀行38家業者下去可以做建議總共20家投入那目前現狀我們就談現狀就好了電子支付業者基本上真正啊賺錢的其實就只有一家LiPay而已LiPay本身是他因為他的會員很多這是他基本的優勢啊可是這種東西真的是一種屠殺的狀況到底啊我們的整個"},{"start":99.977,"end":120.478,"text":"整個我們金融科技的整個發展的路徑圖到底是什麼樣子老實講我看的不是非常的清楚第二個部分你接下來電子支付業者他又可以去從事匯兌業務匯兌他不是找本國他現在積極的想要介入這個移工的小額匯兌的部分那不是小的又搶更小的嗎"},{"start":121.839,"end":140.957,"text":"那現在的虛擬資產的部分 現實上真正有交易金額 老實說有三家而已簡單的這張圖就是123 右邊的部分123 電子支付一家賺錢一公額會停留在只有兩家的業務 虛擬貨幣呢 基本上真的有交易量就只有三家 看起來很多"},{"start":141.798,"end":157.967,"text":"但是實際上是很少那就是我們設定一個分流的概念那這種分流的概念的情況底下是不是一個好的現象或者是我們要現階段如果假設你真的要分流的話你是不是應該讓分流者都健康的成長之後再來考慮合流"},{"start":158.507,"end":174.199,"text":"而不是一分然後馬上又合而且是單項的合單項的合就是大吃小 小吃更小而是單項小的不能去吃大的喔電子支付不能搶銀行的喔小兒會對不能去介入電子支付的喔那這就亂掉啦"},{"start":175.677,"end":184.882,"text":"對不對 主委我真的很想知道到底我們有沒有可能新的有一種金融科技的一個新的發展的藍圖的可能性否則的話會一團亂你的藍圖會變成江湖啦"},{"start":189.588,"end":206.144,"text":"主委 這是本席擔心的地方 要先跟你討論這個部分對 謝謝委員提的一個非常複雜的一個問題因為剛剛提到就是說我們剛才這幾種業態的過程它不是一次同時出現它是一個因著市場的環境逐一的發生的結果"},{"start":206.764,"end":222.742,"text":"再來一個其實我過去在長期研究金融科技我在學校的時候大概就是其實台灣的特殊的法治結構實際上是一個很關鍵的原因比如說過去我們任何一個執照都必須要有一個法律來支撐那比如說銀行法"},{"start":223.263,"end":246.285,"text":"那你要做到銀行的業務必須拿到他的執照除非你要做到他部分業務你還是要拿到一個銀行的執照那只好不斷的分化出其他比如說小額匯兌或電子支付那這件事情呢等於說我們是從既有的市場切出一塊針對未來的演進需要他只專做這一小塊我們給他一個執照一開始他就居於一個比較是"},{"start":248.607,"end":268.973,"text":"我們沒辦法像其他國家比如他的法制是一個很有彈性我直接給你一個新的業態去經營我想這是我們也觀察到的一個問題確實是我們先天上有一些限制但是所有的這種類似金融商品的話金融科技商品都是先有市場才有法制但是我們根本上台灣"},{"start":269.873,"end":288.513,"text":"根本的問題是over banking的問題嘛我們本來銀行就太多嘛那銀行就是要搶業務結果就搶到電子支付電子支付又搶到這個小額匯兌嘛所以大家撐不下去的時候就是想方設法那之後會變成一團大亂那因為有市場在轉入法治的過程當中主委您的角色就很重要"},{"start":289.654,"end":309.272,"text":"你要去如何宏觀調控這個金融科技業的產業發展的路徑藍圖我是希望在你這一任當中有屬於你的架構藍圖出來啦能夠在分流的前提健全之後再考慮合流而不是分了之後呢現在變成亂流而且是以大吃小的這種狀況我講的這個現狀你不否認吧"},{"start":312.395,"end":333.413,"text":"沒有我想喔 其實還是有點差異啦我覺得委員看到是一個現象確實是 我剛才講過就是說他如果是同時發展的話那當然他們各自沒有沒有 這現實上不可能同時發展嘛 對不對所以說因為現實上不可能同時發展這同時進入市場我就再舉更小的例子給你聽嘛這是他過去歷史因素導致的基礎本來就不太一定"},{"start":333.553,"end":348.324,"text":"所以說我們只能在事後在一個timing點來調用制度來做調整嘛譬如講我叔叔疑時說現在電子支付的話他的第三項要不就是可以辦理國內外的小額這個會對這寫很清楚嘛可是他的發展方向呢他不是針對國人"},{"start":349.925,"end":377.603,"text":"或者外國旅客他反而要跳過去已經做好的那兩家去搶他的業務那不是更亂搶下去以後就亂殺價嘛那這種生存的空間就越差嘛我舉的是這個例子好 那我們再回顧到我們剛剛講了日本他開放那個VASP的這個部分的狀況日本在開放VASP的部分在開放這個虛擬資產的這個牌照的過程當中很重要的是第一個除了交易之外"},{"start":378.544,"end":401.725,"text":"第二個他是第一種經商委法院所謂的幹桿跟衍生性商品另外他們也因為市場或制度的情況底下他連電子支付都可以做甚至他後來還可以去成立所謂的網路銀行然後用銀行來發行這一個穩定幣也就是他會變成一個比較健全的金融科技業者"},{"start":402.426,"end":423.422,"text":"可是台灣現在我覺得看不出這種可能性啦然後不只如此喔那個主委你去看喔依照我們的條文精神當中喔依照日本那個部分我們去看考察的時候前年我們去看考察的時候他們因為虛言之後把整個交易量從30%降到5%那我們本來消費量就很少啦"},{"start":424.082,"end":451.049,"text":"如果按照我們這種方式的話就是採取一個相對穩健當然也是算是保守因為我們不想出事情的情況底下這種分階段的處理先通過魔法再通過執法然後再發照再輔導上路那不知道要多久了這是第一啦第二個的部分呢在收入面的部分就只有維持第一個這一個交易而已簡單的交易買賣而已還沒有衍生性的商品"},{"start":451.969,"end":480.535,"text":"第二個呢 你成本又把他拉高你要到五億然後內積內控又要加嚴又雷同一特許行業這種情況底下 也就是說我們看到我們在學習日本的過程當中日本進了我們跟著進日本不進了我們也在進所以說這種情況底下台灣的這個那個虛擬資產業者基本上所面對的困難性會更加的"},{"start":482.101,"end":499.935,"text":"嚴酷啊所以到底接下來很重要的關鍵啊老實說啦這三家能夠支持這目前八家當中老實說真正有比較大而已你也只有三家啦到底會維持幾家我個人啦 老實講我抱持了相當大的懷疑啦"},{"start":500.535,"end":523.288,"text":"那相當大懷疑的部分呢如何去銜接這一個產業你要如何去看待它也就是在第二個部分的可能性怎麼樣以及將來在分流健康情況底下以後在過一段時間以後大的一個趨勢當中河流的可能性就是要有待於這一個足穩你的智慧跟判斷還有政策的形成"},{"start":526.584,"end":551.561,"text":"剛剛委員提到有一點我們對虛擬資產服務業者其實我們並不是說專法執法才開始做其實我們這是跟過去很特別的我們已經開始有這個行業了我們開始才做專法所以各位注意看奇怪我們專法都沒通過為什麼市場已經有八家其實這已經做了一個非常彈性而且已經順應整個的這個做法不過剛剛委員提到就是說各個國家它確實有些可以值得參考"},{"start":552.341,"end":569.737,"text":"但是就像我長期研究金融制度我就知道任何一個制度的產生不是憑空出來的跟它的整個歷史因素有很大的關係我們的歷史不一樣不過它做出來的東西確實可以未來我們做個參考比如說剛才講各個業態我們所能做的當然不一樣但是我覺得好的地方我們可以來研究啦是啊"},{"start":570.037,"end":585.418,"text":"本席就在跟你對話這個我不是照抄啊當然我是說我們我看到了一些大的狀況我們的狀況是如此嘛你剛才不否定我剛剛的觀察嘛所以在不否定的情況底下是不是在做一些大跟小之間的區隔以及呢"},{"start":586.059,"end":607.367,"text":"分流之間的一個培養有一點育成的一個概念讓他們在沙盒實驗能夠更加茁壯的情況底下你已經放出去等於是沙盒已經完成的情況底下讓他更茁壯的情況考慮到未來有河流的可能性我覺得這或許是對台灣的整個金融科技業者比較好的發展路徑這是本席跟你對話的關鍵的地方"},{"start":609.409,"end":631.848,"text":"那剛剛委員提到的概念也是啊任何一個政府他開放一個行業都希望這行業能夠發展起來是否則他乾脆就不要開放是是是但就是說這個這個開放以後他自己經營能力跟市場能不能存活又是另外一個殘酷的對市場是一回事但制度也產生影響啊他會造成生態的不一樣啊或者是我們現在討論制度的時候有些委員的版本啊"},{"start":632.549,"end":658.278,"text":"硬梆梆的就定在說母法當中六個月就應該給他核准那有些應該放在子法就不應該放在母法不是嗎那當然他有一定的tempo要去處理的嘛對不對所以我是覺得主委接下來在討論這部法的過程當中我請你再回去稍微釐清一下到底我們的金融科技業的路徑要怎麼發展我期待你提出您的3.0的版本謝謝主委謝謝委員的指導 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我們有請主委請鋪主委"},{"start":15.961,"end":32.515,"text":"其實是肯定我們櫃會當中你們去研理了這個虛擬資產服務法但是到底它是我們金融創新的保護傘還是境外巨頭的免死金牌所以也跟你做了一些詢問"},{"start":37.056,"end":57.066,"text":"好我們來看這個VSP這個洗房亂象這個合法業者少境外黑數多在合法合規的目前才8家這你們這個完成洗錢房子登記的但是呢這個境外黑數多達了30家的一個警示名單"},{"start":58.926,"end":86.577,"text":"我們這邊看到說你們的監管不章是在於你花了三年的時間112年到114年你才稽查了12家在去年的時候你在9月就已經去年11月你裁罰了6家這6家當中有5家是你在9月的時候就告訴他說你不可以再提供服務了你要停業了可是他停業之後"},{"start":88.26,"end":110.531,"text":"不應該有任何的行為啊 可是他還是繼續執業啊所以你們就在11月的時候給他裁罰 這代表什麼你們儘管會是後事後決 也許在你的下達之前裁罰之前 他早就捲款跑路了包括你花了三年才查了12家那包括你的提供 你要對他裁罰是在你後續"},{"start":113.012,"end":129.277,"text":"已經列管說停業的指令之下你還再給他裁罰那可能在他裁罰之後我就捲款重逃了那所以針對這個警政署這個刑事警察局針對DASP的經驗他這個我一字不漏的就列出來"},{"start":130.057,"end":141.103,"text":"他說這個警察機關他有什麼困境呢第一個他對於交易平台這個所屬錢包的交易平台他沒有辦法掌握第二個我們虛擬資產的交易所都設在國外所以我只要透過跨國司法的互助其實我也得不到任何的回應"},{"start":150.308,"end":153.37,"text":"那第三個呢這個針對非託管的錢包本身這個錢包非在交易平台當中所產生的錢包我也沒有辦法得到他的身份認證第四個我的犯罪手法雖然你們即使未來會改為許可"},{"start":166.099,"end":185.764,"text":"但是還是有很多是以私人幣來進行的非法場外的交易的詐欺案件那詐騙集團也常誘導被害人說你要隱匿案情喔消費對話記錄及交易憑證截圖而且甚至讓被害人不願意配合報案來提供相關的證明"},{"start":187.838,"end":212.038,"text":"所以本席這邊要跟你請教的是全球加密貨幣交易所的排名全球前十大的虛擬貨幣的服務商在台灣沒有一家合法也並沒有全部是在台灣的這30家的警示名單內請教主委這樣的大型境外的交易所您要怎麼的控管呢"},{"start":213.637,"end":236.414,"text":"謝謝委員的關心其實剛剛委員提到的就是過去在沒有專法納管所鞭長不及的地方過去我們不可否認我們的虛擬資產服務業者在全球是野蠻生長包括我想各位都非常清楚去年美國GENES法案才真的約束到所謂穩定幣所以真正穩定幣也沒有在美國發行就是說我說在那個法律之前"},{"start":237.975,"end":259.527,"text":"那我想這也就是納管的重要性,剛才委員不管說交易平台的納管,還有在國外的幣商,還有這些非托管錢包,確實剛才我們檢調單位遇到的困境,這確實在過去,因為它是跟境外的交易所交易,但不在我們的管轄法下面。那未來呢,我們就希望透過這樣一個立法,然後來達到這一點。剛剛委員提到就是說,"},{"start":260.487,"end":287.401,"text":"境外這些巨頭那為什麼我們的監理態度我想在我們的那個草案裡面的第七條第三項我們就已經有針對就是說未來這個境外他可以在台灣有兩條路徑一個就是他可以來設立分支機構另外一個他直接可以來投資設立新的交易所或新的VASP業者我想我們過去這條路一直都沒有關閉一直都是存在包括已經登記好主委講到這邊來那我就來就針對你剛才回答的"},{"start":288.061,"end":291.383,"text":"我右邊這一張這個報導它其實是教導守則這個非法的出金合法的業者淪為洗錢的終端右邊喔它這個網路上隨便說都是教學我境外的這個平台教育在台灣合規的業者也就是蔚蘭林納管的業者出金"},{"start":312.899,"end":340.998,"text":"所以這些合規的業者 就像是洗錢鍊的最後一端他要把錢淋出來的時候 前面他怎麼用我們也管不著 反正就是怎麼洗洗洗 洗到這邊來然後之後呢 到台灣 他要變錢成台幣的時候我們還有教學 教學執引就右邊給你寫得很清楚好 他們呢 這個 雖然完成了KYC啊但是對於前端來自境外高風險交易所的資金來源我根本還是無從查緝啊"},{"start":342.719,"end":363.352,"text":"那主委你怎麼看?對,其實我們現在VASP業者,現在我們台灣這個,現在合法經營的八家都是我們洗錢防治法裡面的,所謂的要嚴格遵守洗錢防治的比如說該來的資金流如何做登記,如何做管理,我想應該都是有在被管理主委,我這邊只是提醒"},{"start":365.032,"end":385.181,"text":"這個如果是像這個案例產生你真的為了交易所能夠對於上端上端上端的這個洗錢的所有的錢包地址全部都能都能夠掌握嗎這我只是一個一個提醒你我覺得這個很困難其實沒有錯我已經提到那個就是我們國際賽講的Travel Rule"},{"start":386.181,"end":413.002,"text":"好 OK 那當然你們的資產虛擬資產管理法當中有四個重點其實重點是在於對境外虛擬資產的服務商在台灣設立分支機構應該要得到主管機關的許可而且發給許可證照這其實是你們的重點那本席有三點要跟您就教就像幣安跟OKS這種大型境外交易所金管會要如何建立然後虛擬資產管理法如何能夠規範得到"},{"start":414.443,"end":432.061,"text":"第二個國內的這個VSP的業者呢依據資產管理法被嚴格的查核監禮但境外平台根本不需要落地啊我也不需要納管啊我一樣能夠在線上收費營業啊那誰還要乖乖的申請你這一套許可證呢"},{"start":433.896,"end":448.274,"text":"主委如果不落地那只要不落地難道就是境外巨頭的免死金牌嗎還是國人遭了詐騙之後我又如何來保護國人呢其實委員講到都是非常核心的問題第一個"},{"start":450.202,"end":472.594,"text":"第一個我們虛擬資產它本質是一個跨國際的平台任何一個人有能力上網跟他做交易其實上我想這個就是在國際但是不可否認的對一般人而言他假設要透過比如說我們合法的銀行的帳戶或是我們現行的交易所能夠很簡單的接近這個交易的話"},{"start":473.835,"end":493.418,"text":"還是以比如說我們現在的合規的這個比較好這也是為什麼很多國外大型的這些的所謂的幣商他願意來台灣跟我們申請要落地否則他根本不用確實他們也不斷的跟我們接觸我想這部分確實是對啊 如果像第一個嘛像幣安跟OKS也許幣安跟你有接觸OKS沒有"},{"start":494.979,"end":507.084,"text":"那這個OKS你要怎麼去管理它呢那你的資產管理法怎麼規範得到呢類似類似但是OKS也夠大喔它也是全世界第三大"},{"start":508.081,"end":524.538,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是說其實在國際金融上面它其實過去有類似的這樣的一個概念比如說我一個人有能力在網路上去購買其他國家的金融商品那其實上這件事情是個人的行為但它不會受到本國法律的任何的保障"},{"start":525.399,"end":546.152,"text":"那相對的 但是這種人相對比較少我們未來所要想像的就是說我們有自己本地的監管體系我們可以讓大部分的國人很安心的也很自由的進行主委 這個我也是提醒就是說今天你有修了立了這個法就是要接軌國際但是我覺得對國人來講不在乎你有沒有接軌國際是我的詐騙能不能減少"},{"start":549.594,"end":572.668,"text":"這件事情我的錢透過這個虛擬的這個市場去交易之後我的錢能不能追回來這才是國人要的要不然你這個法通過其實對國人其實是無感的重點是洗錢房子當中我們能達到防詐的本意所以其實你也辛苦啦我說我也肯定你們修這個法但是確實有好多像本席剛才提的這三點其實是"},{"start":573.849,"end":597.034,"text":"你們要更花點心如何來保護國人的其實謝委員的提醒這些都是非常關鍵的最後我也一個結語就是其實由登記制強化登建立為許可制其實在過去兩年的登記制當中我們的具體執法是不髒的所以未來修法後重研治理之後有效執法才是本法的重點"},{"start":597.534,"end":609.532,"text":"不要鬧到說我們最後台灣的虛擬資產服務法淪為管得到本土小魚漏掉境外大白鯊的窘境好 以上 謝謝謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167752","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167752","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a872c9c0635676eeae6927793779d72c5eedb258d1c0d1ac0303090bacd9a8aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:13:33 - 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剛剛確實沒有錯這樣比如說過去在我們虛擬資產服務商沒有納管的時代那對於這些所謂的上面一些交易行為常發生很多弊端我想各位都在這個都看到過去很多事件這也是為什麼各國現在要加強管理在我們現在的這個院版的草案裡面對於各種VASP的形態裡面確實有一個借貸商這借貸商呢我們會有個專門的執法針對這部分包括他"},{"start":129.179,"end":149.514,"text":"未來可能應該所有的營業規範還有它相關的一些這些運作的模式都會比較用一個審慎嚴格的態度來看待這個畢竟這個借貸商本質上有槓桿以及所謂信用擴張的效果所以這部分我們會更嚴謹的態度來看待最重要就是因為你居然要綠"},{"start":150.835,"end":168.902,"text":"這要做就是一定要嚴謹那本席是贊同虛擬資產納入專法來管理一來讓市場有一定規範可以遵循二來這個民眾使用虛擬資產商提供的這些服務也有"},{"start":170.142,"end":191.113,"text":"較多的一個保障因此相關虛擬資產立法必須要能達到保護投資以及整個市場健全由於實務上虛擬資產服務商會努力向散戶來推銷他的商品來吸引交易因此虛擬資產服務商與散戶之間"},{"start":196.456,"end":209.413,"text":"這個很有可能產生特別嚴重的這些資訊上的不對等不對稱的這些問題啊那金管會扮演重要的把關角色本席建議虛擬資產"},{"start":212.017,"end":222.351,"text":"這個服務業者未來也要納入永續金融評鑑的指標以利民眾選擇優質虛擬資產服務業者我請問金管會你的看法為何"},{"start":226.818,"end":248.791,"text":"謝謝委員我想說剛剛委員提到永續金融評鑑那這個部分現在是以金融業為主那現在我們虛擬資產剛剛初步實施我想確實建立制度維護投資人以及交易人安全這是我們在立法上最重要的一個目的那未來有任何的促進這個市場健全的方式我們都可以"},{"start":249.471,"end":272.184,"text":"都可以來考慮,不過這個東西會有階段性的這樣那個考慮應該是他現階段可能那個標準可能沒辦法先跟我們的金融機構這樣的一個方式來做不過資訊充分的揭露以及未來給予是非常嚴謹的管理應該是我們在這個對虛擬資產服務業者應該是非常重要最重要對,解決資訊不對稱的問題確實是"},{"start":275.006,"end":288.357,"text":"我是認為這個我們你們要是實施以後開始做我認為可以該做的要求的還是這個建基制的一定要做那個主委啊虛擬資產易受人"},{"start":291.32,"end":317.114,"text":"人為的一個操作或炒作那交易資訊不透明而且價格波動大投資風險高本席以購買基金為例基金價格波動風險由低至高分為五級來協助投資人判斷該基金是否符合自己的這些風險承受度並要求投資人購買錢"},{"start":319.255,"end":336.94,"text":"必須要填寫風險屬性問卷的KYC譬如問卷結果低風險承受度則民眾不能購買高風險的基金是保障民眾投資的一種機制那如果這個"},{"start":339.448,"end":355.475,"text":"這個未來如果這個虛擬資產服務商落地管理後這個民眾購買或使用虛擬資產服務商品是否也應該比照基金的風險將虛擬資產風險的程度分類並要求民眾購買前要做風險屬性的問卷那個金管會你們對這樣的做法你們看法如何"},{"start":366.64,"end":393.376,"text":"謝謝委員我想對於這個因為其實整個虛擬資產服務的客戶有分各種不同的型態有些是這個專業的交易人有些是就像剛剛委員提到就是一般的投資人或是持有人這部分的話我們在我們的那個條文裡面確實剛剛做到剛剛委員提到就是所謂的KYC就是我們像我們現在是這是金融服務業裡面非常基本的一個要求"},{"start":394.236,"end":420.619,"text":"對於你的客戶他的風險屬性以及了解你的客戶推薦或是交易適當風險的產品這未來也會納入到我們的這個規範裡面好 我是認為要嚴謹本息關係虛擬資產服務業者加入應用程式介面這個API調查機制的情形根據法務部11306月資料台灣高等檢察署"},{"start":421.44,"end":424.462,"text":"已經以4家虛擬資產物業者建立API的查調這個機制並規劃擴大這個擴大界階"},{"start":436.741,"end":465.151,"text":"至其他這個虛擬資產服務業者那請法務部 法務部今天有派代表來嘛來做說明虛擬資產服務業者加入應用程式介面API整個調查機制最新的情況並說明是否有助提升整個基層檢查追查這個虛擬資產的金流偵查的效率今天那個"},{"start":468.055,"end":490.768,"text":"是不是請法務部 法務部啊我們楊檢察官因為未來虛擬資產服務法草案三讀通過後法務部在要求業者配合查對不法這些金流上是否有更有約束力啊向委員報告考檢署現在我們有"},{"start":492.845,"end":519.011,"text":"檢察機關扣案虛擬資產平台監管平台2024年4月15號就正式上線所以在未來對於被告或犯罪嫌疑人所查扣虛擬資產都可以在安全的系統下被妥善保管等待確定判決後才會將之沒收或發案給被犯人以徹底剝奪被告犯罪不罰所得對不對好啦 那你就回去啦對那個"},{"start":522.571,"end":527.796,"text":"主委接下來我請問財政部今天有派人來嗎今天財政部有國庫署因為現在虛擬資產現在不是這個"},{"start":541.87,"end":554.636,"text":"虛擬資產現在不只是詐騙的工具它也是很多散戶投資人配置資產的工具比特幣前陣子的狂飆國內有很多人賺了大錢財政部"},{"start":558.518,"end":584.705,"text":"這個你可不可以說明針對國內投資人買賣虛擬資產的這些財產交易所得國稅局課稅情況以及啊追查他的漏稅的成果因為未來虛擬資產服務法草案三讀通過以後財政部會如何與虛擬資產業者合作協助業者民眾合法的報稅我想這點很重要你們可以做一個說明"},{"start":586.306,"end":607.245,"text":"報告委員,只要有個人有這些虛擬資產一些交易的話,就像委員講的,就是說他還是要依法去申報財產交易所得的。那這個相關的這些資訊,我們到時候都會,如果未來修法上路以後,我們都會透過一些管道去蒐集相關的資訊,來去做一個合克的動作。"},{"start":607.665,"end":621.895,"text":"因為民眾擔心虛擬資產投資血本無歸那我請問那個彭主委虛擬資產業者是否有需要成立虛擬資產業者的保存公司有沒有需要你認為"},{"start":622.856,"end":649.255,"text":"委員的意思是說類似像我們草案提到的有關那個類似我們現在金融安全網的設計嗎?對我們也提到過就是從我們也看國際發展比較快的這個市場它沒有設計類似像存保因為它畢竟比如說虛擬資產它是一個資產跟存款還是有點差異不過他們現在有一些替代的信任機制比如說像有些交易平台它就會按照它的營業額收入提撥一定的基金"},{"start":649.835,"end":678.1,"text":"未來在他們比如說這個平台被害被盜的時候產生這個損失由這個基金來做適度的填補來建立那個交易人的信心但我還沒有看到其他國家類似這樣存保的機制去針對虛擬資產交易不過它像我們現在法規裡面有提到就是說我們必須把你的虛擬資產跟你客戶你保管的必須隔離而且冷熱錢包之間必須要一定高比率的方式要放在冷錢包裡面就是做這些安全的機制"},{"start":678.72,"end":698.657,"text":"主委我是希望說既然要立法我們就要嚴謹那這如何去杜絕一些這個受詐的情形 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像去年就發生好幾件嘛S的王牌交易所的詐騙案嘛然後還有臂想還有很多上甚至是投放虛擬的那個假的廣告用名人詐騙等等這些詐騙案件你想用什麼樣的方法是比較有可能可以至少壓制減緩或是杜絕"},{"start":65.481,"end":90.231,"text":"是 施謝委員 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剛才委員講就是說其實整個去中心化金融裡面在國際的發展趨勢很明顯的中心化提供了信任比如政府的立法的管理還有就是透過政府公權力的介入都會產生一般民眾信任"},{"start":292.811,"end":318.544,"text":"的來源這也是其實某種程度也有助於這樣這個產業的發展我覺得剛剛委員提到我們是持開放的態度來針對這未來市場的發展不過我們現在先以市場秩序跟整個就是我們交易人的保護為主要的立法的目標好那因為你花了這麼大的力氣監管那如果能夠將來成立交易所"},{"start":320.011,"end":338.074,"text":"公家的交易所將來很多年以後至少在政府的稅收上面也會有幫助你看現在我們的證券交易事實上因為政府我們是用採收證交稅的方式但是因為交易有一大那政府的稅收也能夠得到一些保障"},{"start":339.444,"end":362.142,"text":"那所以制度當然跟其他國家政所制度不太一樣但是每一個國家有他自己的做法那我在想說如果能夠長期來成立的話長期的方向如果是這樣的話對台灣的未來也是會有所注意第一個提升投資者的信任度公信力第二個因為交易所如果是掌握在政府的手裡"},{"start":363.598,"end":385.975,"text":"至少可以很多方面的公式公信資訊這方面的那個要求的公開跟透明會比較高然後對交易者來講也會比較有保障好那我再請教你的問題因為我最近我們的服務處遇到的那個金融消費平益中心他平益完的案件銀行不遵守"},{"start":387.27,"end":413.12,"text":"那你這樣子金融消費評議中心評議幹嘛他沒有存在的必要啊照理來講金融消費評議中心評議了如果當事人不服可以去法院告這是我了解問題那個是跟銀行之間有法律能力跟資訊的落差現在是評議了消費者接受銀行不接受那怎麼會有這樣的狀況所以我想這個"},{"start":415.223,"end":432.119,"text":"剛剛我們局長跟總經理也在,是不是請他們簡單來回答一下?各位報告,那個個案是TRF,TRF是不在評議中心的法效率裡面但是呢,這個部分我們也會跟評議中心密切聯絡只要是評議中心調處的案件,我們都會一件一件來檢視"},{"start":433.442,"end":451.943,"text":"他這個事情很離譜第一個是第一次調處那一間銀行我不要點名那一間銀行對金融消費平息中心憑說要賠12%12%已經很低了DRF對台灣的損害傷害很大結果那一間銀行完全不理他"},{"start":453.084,"end":479.107,"text":"就後來他再申請第二次評議評議還是說應該要還那一部分這次評議降到10%只還他10%陳清仁也沒有意見啊說那你就照評議中心的評議處理就銀行還是不遵守如果這樣子的狀況一再的發生的話那你金融消費者評議中心就關門就好啦你的評議今天不是當事人不接受不是陳清仁不接受是你銀行不接受"},{"start":480.851,"end":509.301,"text":"那這樣子的話那金融消費平益中心給人家的感受就是找你也沒有用啊是不是會有這樣的狀況是 更委員幫過去285件裡面絕大多數銀行其實都會接受那對於少數沒有辦法接受的部分我們會跟平益中心來聯繫我們會一件一件來釐清銀行該負的責任就是要負責那了解清楚好不好我覺得平益中心坦白講如果照規定你們是找了一些專家來嘛"},{"start":510.1,"end":538.878,"text":"然後來評議他會做出評議而且陳述真的是不高那這樣的評議我相信有相當的道理那這個被評議的對象就是陳經理來陳情來申請然後相對對照是銀行你知道那個權利義務是大家的那個是不對等的喔銀行是他無論在法律能力無論在各方面他都明顯告於這個當事人嘛那"},{"start":539.98,"end":552.234,"text":"金融消費評議中心所做的評議屢次不遵守然後一副不奈他何這個樣子那這樣子你們的法治是不是你覺得有沒有檢討的地方呢"},{"start":552.938,"end":569.906,"text":"是因為這個部分目前是就是緊急於調處但即便是調處也是陳如委員所說的這是評議中心所做出來的決定那非常具有高度的一個專業跟公信力那這個部分個案上我們會找銀行來就是來跟我們說明清楚"},{"start":570.831,"end":592.11,"text":"好 謝謝 當然當年的TRF這個危害到現在還沒有完全解決啦剩下少數 數量不多的個案希望今晚會能夠努力因為我在第九屆立委的時候我列管要求他每個月要給我一個報表看你們已經解決了多少那現在已經第十一屆了 這麼多年了那"},{"start":593.532,"end":615.729,"text":"這個尾巴剩下不多如果你們能夠處理完至少也告訴國人說我們DIF所有的生意都解決了這對我們國人來講說至少當年的錯誤已經有被矯正了至少被治療了一部分那個彭主委可不可以啊我們再繼續努力啦所以剛剛局長已經說了他會全力來協調這件事情好 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簡單的說這個事情陸軍事件部在調查的時候也有去做一個了解也就是說實戰化的要求目前我們仍然是按照這樣做那但是它也有一個合理的長數跟比例那目前我們跟這個短掃的空彈殼的數量來看它兩者之間沒有決然的關聯性所以這個事件的本質在於我如果這一場這個部隊我拉出一打法"},{"start":136.892,"end":159.717,"text":"那打了一千發結果掉了兩百發或一百多發的空彈殼啦以前的話都要找到現在是找不到填表單儲帳是而這一次11拐鋁的事件是短時間內大量整批的不見目前掌握是這樣那如果快七八千發的空彈殼是蠻重的喔"},{"start":160.305,"end":169.07,"text":"他現在主要是跟藏籍的資料不符,我們要再去檢視一下空彈殼的數量,何以會跟藏籍的登載不符,但是我們還是有"},{"start":186.953,"end":203.283,"text":"如果原來是查帳籍那是行政調查我看到你們的動作是直接丟給高雄地檢署我們自己也要做調查提醒國防部一件事情就是說既然在2024年的1月份我們有一個"},{"start":203.983,"end":220.631,"text":"新的揭示 就是對於這空彈殼因為以前我們自己打法知道你要統統找回來要花很多時間我們有個儲帳制度這到底是一個帳的累積到一個量他只是沒有去登記表單儲帳累積到這麼大的量還是像剛才參謀長所說的"},{"start":221.992,"end":250.904,"text":"這不一樣這個違反了這個常識跟比例原則太大量的突然間不見這個本質上是有差異的我是希望不要因為這樣子原來你們當時這個申報除障免除去撿找到百分之百空彈殼這個東西不要再走回頭路了其實美軍是沒有在撿彈殼的是 我想我知道委員的關切所以在這一個事情發生的時候我也是了解那我們想我們這一個有關那個"},{"start":251.988,"end":252.346,"text":"呃"},{"start":253.447,"end":281.395,"text":"原來的那個機制我們想我們還是會存續的我們軍方的習慣是除了一個問題就多一個新規定要減輕一個東西就多了一張表單就越填越多減量啦第二個我要請教我們昨天看到在美西時間17號接裝了兩架MQ-9B高空的無人機那我這問題也很簡單高空無人機的飛行員他還是叫pilot或者操作員"},{"start":282.54,"end":300.498,"text":"跟一般無人機的飛手一般無人機可能是小型的可能是巡飛彈的或者自殺無人機的我們在現在目前國防部對這兩種操作人員的定義是否一樣因為定義衍生出來的專業家級是不是雷同"},{"start":302.426,"end":317.746,"text":"先跟委員報告,我們現在編程的無人機大隊也因為這個編裝的調整,我們跟人事總署已經爭取了,所以我們現在是無人機大隊也列入戰鬥部隊的一個佳績但是它有沒有飛行佳績?"},{"start":319.684,"end":346.374,"text":"無人機的部分嘛小型的中小型的無人機高空的無人機的部分沒有有沒有飛行加急因為這也是我們國軍第一次接收到這樣的一個裝備所以說我們有把它初期納到跟其他的戰鬥勤務加急是一樣的這個戰鬥勤務加急這一題我們將來還有專報的時候可以來討論我給部長跟我們各軍總參考一下第一個先把定義弄清楚"},{"start":347.054,"end":349.567,"text":"FPV啊彈簧刀啊"},{"start":351.038,"end":374.77,"text":"這個Jump 20啦這種一般的無人機的飛手你們現在設定的是領無人機的戰鬥家體領戰鬥部隊的戰鬥部隊家體但是去開MQ-9B這種高空無人機在美方是認定他是一個飛行員而我們現在不管是入航的直升機的飛行員因為我們現在有一些要淘汰人又會釋放出來他還是飛行員"},{"start":377.671,"end":406.324,"text":"所以高空無人機 軍規的高空無人機應該還是要有飛行員的加級你可以增加一個類 我們現在兩類嘛你可以增加第三類別這是尊嚴 這也是知己就我本來是開飛機的 我現在去操作無人機我變成領戰鬥加級 而不是飛行加級我相信參謀長應該理解這個對一個飛行員的尊嚴也好對他實質的所得也好對鼓勵流用來講 都會有影響甚至於連服裝"},{"start":407.625,"end":434.391,"text":"美軍在開在駕駛這些高空無人機的是穿飛行服我們現在要他穿的是野戰的作戰的作業服這些都要納入考量我提供建議就是說對於無人機類別要區分開來高空作業的無人機他是不是定義為飛行員著飛行裝加擠未必要像有人飛機的加擠這麼高但是我們可以"},{"start":434.851,"end":463.666,"text":"增加第三類別因為這是未來其實它是現在式現在這種無人機的操作員各國都在增加所以我們如果一視同仁從海軍陸戰隊的飛手陸軍的飛手到高空無人機的飛行員都視為同一個類別的話留不住人才我坦白講我就到民間去開直升機就好我幹嘛留在這邊變成領這個佳績我相信部長跟董事長聽得懂我意思啦這個給部裡面建議那我現在請教"},{"start":465.148,"end":484.207,"text":"我們一般在所謂的預算的特別條例其實它就是最重要的條例就三個條文第一個條文叫做屋頂我給你多少上限不管是治水的特別條例基礎建設的特別條例或我們以前的F16V的特別條例上限多少"},{"start":484.787,"end":501.832,"text":"第二個條例的在這條文裡面的第二個重點是用途適用什麼範圍像我們的前瞻基礎建設裡面叫做綠素水稻香綠能啊數位差距啦那個水的改善跟治水啦"},{"start":502.832,"end":520.494,"text":"道路、鐵道建設、城鄉差距它會界定一個範圍因為條例本身不會去處理預算的細項是根據條例通過之後才來編列預算在這個範圍裡面框住而特別條例的第三個重點叫做年限"},{"start":521.395,"end":545.908,"text":"為什麼特別條例要有年限否則就放在年度預算就好了我是三年期像我們的公路這個叫做都市生活圈道路是四年五年一期因為他要跨年度去規劃他要累積的所以我們這個是八年所以我第一個要請教這一個部長我們的預算1.25兆是怎麼計算出來的怎麼得到這個數據的"},{"start":549.522,"end":572.887,"text":"因為我們在專案報告裡面已經有提出我們整體的規劃那細部的這個要籌購的這些項目那麼有一些是還機密的有一些是可以公開的所以我們上次也在委會做過全面的一個機密專報所以那個就有比較充分我們能夠有一個"},{"start":574.042,"end":590.812,"text":"比較充分的一個機會所以我這樣講對不對這1.25兆其實是經過不管是賓整或者跟台美之間的磋商溝通他是有具體的項目需求加起來才有這1.25兆的數字而不是框個數字在那邊以後慢慢花對然後"},{"start":591.713,"end":611.767,"text":"就跟委員講的我們已經有一個規劃那這規劃也做過精密總部有一個完整的規劃那現在這是一個上限嘛那我們接下來就如同委員剛剛講的我們還要把每一個預算的拿過來很多人把這個上限當作就是預算的其實特別條例通過之後還要編列預算進來審查嘛對對那就你的預算的金額"},{"start":613.103,"end":641.456,"text":"不能夠超過這個上限但事實上每個預算那你用途的範圍可不可以大方向講因為我相信就算在野黨我們可以其實就本著需求來好好溝通如果這些預算的上限是經過計算出來的項目確實是我們國家安全所需要的我覺得在我們國防委員會這個東西沒有黨派之分的啦那第二個就是說用在哪些方向對美採購是其中一項而已你們主要的用途有哪幾大類"},{"start":643.001,"end":663.221,"text":"跟委員報告一個,我剛剛在黃仁委員在講的時候,我大概有提出金融五號,我可以公開的部分我現在先講,M109A7嘛那遠程金融打擊,非常就是海馬式多管火箭嘛那麼無人載具跟它的反制系統,這個可以公開現在部分,當然還有包括國內的商購跟委制部分"},{"start":664.202,"end":692.369,"text":"一個就是反甲型的無人機的配彈型這個Artis 700然後還有這個Artis 600SR你現在講的是項目啦我講的用途範圍大概就是精準火藥跟它的載台還有我們的不對稱戰力的建構還有我們的台灣盾就是防空能力的整合提升然後另外因為這些彈藥什麼很多需要在台灣產製所以有台灣的產線台灣無人機的製造你大概有幾個大的範圍就是我們特別條例裡面列的這幾個範圍"},{"start":694.502,"end":715.585,"text":"所以我真的因為時間關係我們未來這三天會好好來討論這個條例其實特別條例只處理預算上限年限跟用途範圍這裡面不會去處理說你要買哪個細項不是寫在條例裡面的因為項目在預算編列還會出來而條例通過之後編列的預算"},{"start":716.578,"end":732.969,"text":"不管是細項說明審查甚至於未來的決算其實跟年度預算是相同的方式還要再送大約審查對 還是要送大約審查啦就預算是預算條例是條例條例是授予編列預算的法源那我們希望這一次的聯席審查因為"},{"start":734.025,"end":762.979,"text":"八年有他的急迫性有他的需要性如果變成年年來審查變成年度預算就好了所以在國防預算聯審財政委員會我覺得我們希望我們不管是什麼政黨其實我們照顧的人民是同一群人就是中華民國這個範圍內每個人的安全這沒有黨派的分別我們希望1.25兆基於不管是兵整計畫細分會議或者台美的對談如果是確切需求的我們能夠"},{"start":763.999,"end":775.004,"text":"在黨派之外尋求最大的共識讓1.25兆能夠全數通過我想這說明就條例通過1.25兆不代表空白授權1.25兆還是要細項還是要預算審查還是要大約通過所以絕對沒有空白授權"}]}},{"id":"167776","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167776","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8af8ca650a4eb50000e6927793779d72c5d7f21695b503ffebc51c5fd7770ca2cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"11:28:53 - 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就說這我們交給市場"},{"start":174.445,"end":177.348,"text":"所以看起來沒有什麼解決的問題但是我們現在在想到的是我們再往下看因為在穩定幣的這個如果普及的話如何助長民主很痛恨的這樣的一個詐騙問題我們看到現在呢有賴著配這些的藉口支付的這種貨幣也是這種數位貨幣這樣的一個神行但是如果他們還"},{"start":196.947,"end":202.728,"text":"穩定病在台灣普及化的話對詐騙集團來說他等於是省下購入到人頭賬戶的高昂成本還有與賬戶被凍結的時候資金被圈存的危險只要把被害人他的錢引到換成穩定病的而且成立的零門檻又不具名的這個冷錢包看一下左邊這個冷錢包然後再把它打入這樣這個混閉器當中就可以輕鬆的阻斷痕跡到海外去那這樣的話"},{"start":225.953,"end":235.708,"text":"就會造成說他們詐騙集團的這樣的成本非常降低那這樣的話請問金管費你有什麼樣的措施要去防避防避這樣的一個問題"},{"start":241.92,"end":257.472,"text":"我們現在這些的幣跟這些的交易都在市場上已經存在了那現在我們是假設今天討論這部專法如果設立以後呢我們有更有這樣的一個基礎跟法源來強化這個東西一定會對這個東西是有正面的幫助"},{"start":258.653,"end":277.454,"text":"先做個說明本主委再來就是說冷錢包的狀況跟現在的情況跟你是一個開放的是不是不一樣的我說接下來就是我們在這部專法裡面本來就是我剛才跟幾位委員報告過了比如說我們透過更多合規業者的管控他的交易對手比如說"},{"start":278.155,"end":306.153,"text":"其實未來如果你要透過我們合規交易你必須做好完整的KYC你必須這個實名制完全知道你這個人是誰然後接下來你會去哪裡這件事情可是冷錢包的部分是沒有連上網的這樣是一個封閉的體系如果從交易所的錢匯到冷錢包去這樣子根本就沒辦法的只有他自己知道的那些的這個這樣的密碼等等的尤其這樣又到混閉器當中是根本沒辦法這樣看起來是非常大的漏洞啊"},{"start":307.317,"end":332.863,"text":"我想說這部分我們會從整個監管角度畢竟這些大概都是我們面臨到的挑戰這部分我們也會跟我們的相關的檢調單位跟技術團隊來解決這個問題比如說我們針對未來這個客戶誰跟我做交易比如發現我那邊誰到最後這個我那邊交給誰這部分都是實名制的話我覺得這個追蹤的軌跡就會比以前好很多"},{"start":333.203,"end":354.497,"text":"沒有 但是你如果已經到交易所之後後面的相關的部分真的 那個冷錢包的問題根本就沒辦法解決因為它本身就是一個不具名的而且還沒有跟它連線上去了解的這部分看起來 主委您現在已經在有點是在重複在回答這一部分其實沒有得到一個結果 希望說金管會這邊一定要在未來在虛擬資產服務法當中的設定當中要針對這樣的一個實質上的問題要好好去解決"},{"start":361.561,"end":381.682,"text":"對 這個技術性的問題呢 我想說我們會 今天委員提到 我們會接下來請我們的相關單位去好好去處理我再跟委員做個回覆好 那大概是說多久會出來嗎 有沒有規劃的話這個技術上如何解決混閉器的問題 我想說我們會請我們技術單位呢告訴委員該怎麼做 我再跟委員說明"},{"start":382.605,"end":385.026,"text":"好 那個時間就希望盡快了大概兩個月之內可以可以 好那我們繼續往下看現在台灣作為全球第七大的中差區在上次的這個FTS的這個交易事件當中是這麼大那如果現在如果我們的虛擬資產服務法它通過之後"},{"start":404.056,"end":418.231,"text":"如果這樣子國外的他們這個幣安等海外交易所不配我們的房價跟洗錢的規範然後甚至也沒有在台灣在落地申請這個牌照那請問一下金管會有什麼具體措施來因應呢"},{"start":419.568,"end":437.195,"text":"我想剛剛委員提到這個問題任何一個國家的法律基本上大部分都是以自己的轄區為主你也很難去直接除了有國際合作跟國際條約我想這是大家共同面對到在跨國境的虛擬資產交易大家必須未來為什麼要強化國際合作非常重要"},{"start":437.975,"end":452.788,"text":"那至於說剛才委員提到的概念就是說假設我的國人他們都是透過我們合法的交易所去交易的話那比如說其他境外的公司他就沒辦法直接接觸到我們的投資人的話那中間這個節點我們就可以做這樣管理比如說"},{"start":453.709,"end":471.373,"text":"我剛剛跟委員講就是說其實我們現在很多的這些比如說虛擬資產業如果你不是合規的話我們就要求我們的金融機構不可以跟你做往來我就不會入金這本來就是一個很重要的監理法規的要求這個就是我們納管的一個好處這是也是其中一個做法"},{"start":471.953,"end":492.658,"text":"主委這個問題在如果金管會沒有現在的監管或跟金融機構把他設立的他們這個交易的方式的話其實他現在就已經是跟在網路上面他就直接可以在他們的交易所裡面這樣去做這樣的交易啦那你知道我提出來的方式不是等於說我們的虛擬資產服務法如果真的制定出來也沒辦法去沒有辦法去監管到他們啊他可以跳過你們的這樣方式啊"},{"start":497.499,"end":525.138,"text":"剛剛委員報告就是說他今天經過我們國人他最容易接近還是我們合規的這些基礎機構還就是合規的這個交易所那這部分我們就加強管控我們一定是這樣來做的嘛這應該是這樣那是因為境外部分有效的措施讓他運譽到台灣來落腳來發行對所以這個就信任比如說假設我們今天我們能夠給予監管以後大部分的我想民眾大概會比較相信政府監管的業者"},{"start":525.538,"end":544.354,"text":"那這樣我們就達到這個目的畢竟說你自己要在網路上跟一個境外的交易你必須承擔更多的風險我想這部分剛才跟委員報告過全世界我們在面對的心理資產是共同的大家都有共同的問題不是說台灣特別厲害可以解決這些問題但是這個因為大家都共同的問題"},{"start":545.835,"end":566.925,"text":"國際合作要解決但是我們必須先做好自己本國內的這些監管法規規範當然當然現在現在大家的努力就包括我們剛剛民眾黨所提的版本都希望這個制度更健全對所以說我想大家目標都是一致的那我請問一下新加坡像是香港綠大社會是怎麼處理法針對這樣子讓它落地請問一下剛剛說的像碧安他們這個海外交易"},{"start":567.965,"end":583.734,"text":"這樣子有沒有落地來申請牌照比如說委員剛剛提到那家公司他也不是在全世界大部分的國家都有落地他大概是在一些部分國家有落地很多國家對不同的地商之間有不同的規範他也不是說全部都地方都有設計像剛才講說因為這個部分呢"},{"start":587.657,"end":598.011,"text":"因為它牽涉到各個地方的規定還有就是說我們對獨特的法官的要求所以你說的交易的合作這個國際合作就還是沒有一個好像是空殼子"},{"start":599.35,"end":622.802,"text":"因為如果你說怎麼樣去增加國際合作事實上是不太清楚的就像比如說我們犯罪的國際合作就是一個很重要的比如說為什麼一個罪犯會從其他國家被引渡到我這邊回來一定雙方有一個協議否則他在海外我也沒辦法對他行使我的治權嘛這很正常對不對但是假設是一個大家共同的罪犯大家透過協定就會被"},{"start":623.642,"end":650.216,"text":"對 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適得其所第一個先要給他一個明確的身份跟地位我想這是所有在市場上要取得社會信任非常重要的就等於說我法規上給他明確的法律定位以及業務範圍這樣可以阻卻非法跟合法之間的分際這是一個第一步"},{"start":84.355,"end":106.676,"text":"那再來就是我們規範的合理化以及有前瞻性比如說我們現在規範合理未來有發展的空間我想這一部法律應該都是大概用這樣的方式來前進OK很好我想主委觀念非常正確我想虛擬資產不是未來也是而是現在進行式全球市場的規模動輒上兆美元"},{"start":107.617,"end":132.015,"text":"那我國的投資人參與程度也非常的高但是目前的狀況我們看到是零散的監理法制落後風險外溢虛擬資產市場雖然目前經歷那個Terraluna的崩跌以及FTS的倒閉兩大震盪但截至今日為止就3月23號全球加密貨幣的市值大概還有2.4兆美元"},{"start":134.056,"end":139.057,"text":"其中比特幣市值約1.4兆美元市佔率大概56.15%穩定幣市值大概3122億美元也大概佔12.94%根據2021年IMF與金融時報的數據"},{"start":153.041,"end":171.248,"text":"全球的市值總共仍然穩守在1兆美元以上那麼台灣在FTS的事件中的損失規模高達新台幣600億元全球排名第七所以可見我們台灣潛在的投資人非常的多"},{"start":172.208,"end":199.891,"text":"那麼用戶的規模也非常的多那我請問這個 主委我們有做過調查嗎 我們大概推估啊現在我們台灣持有虛擬貨幣的人大概有多少人其實我們現在是 就一般民眾我們沒有辦法知道他這樣那我們只能知道我們現在已經納管就沒有推估 我們沒有推估我們現在納管的業者裡面我們有請他提供他營業的資料我們大概推估現在就是他大概開戶數大概一百萬左右剛才跟委員說明過了"},{"start":200.111,"end":200.773,"text":"100萬人開戶客戶數將近100萬左右"},{"start":207.555,"end":232.182,"text":"市場規模呢市場規模的話就相對部分我們還在跟他講我們如果有有在統計因為現在有個工會在所以未來有了法規之後我們就會詳細知道這些數據當然當然我們現在就在統計了啦這個部分既然有工會我想其實根據就是說我們這個推估就是媒體的報導推估數值我們的市場規模大概在800億到1500億美金"},{"start":235.123,"end":263.078,"text":"就大概有台幣2.5兆到4.5兆所以這一塊呢確實需要我們專法來加以這個去做監管所以我想請教主委我們在監理的密度方面根據歐盟MICA的精神是應該針對不同的規模與業務性質進行分級所以金管會認為應該採取比例原則與兩體財醫還是比照銀行法採行高度嚴格的全面牌照制"},{"start":264.139,"end":284.788,"text":"其實剛剛委員講我們這次做的跟過去比較大的不同就是我們是採用不同業別不同執照的申請方式那跟剛剛委員提到銀行它是一個大執照的概念但是我們這裡比如說我們總共大概有七個業態由你自己來決定來申請可以重複也可以單獨"},{"start":285.965,"end":303.138,"text":"是 所以對於這種小規模的虛擬資產服務商我們不會一律要求比照銀行法這樣的一個資本額營業保證金有分流讓他有一個創新的空間嘛對 他可以比如說就像我們有一家只做移轉商他就只有取得這樣的一個內容"},{"start":303.979,"end":316.829,"text":"所以我本席的提案然後看這個主委你站不站身我的提案版本中增設簡易登記類的VASPER允許小規模的業者以報備制來納管主委你認為這樣是否能夠兼顧產業的創新"},{"start":321.232,"end":337.643,"text":"這其實我們現在來看的話就是因為我們現在假設啦相較於我們過去對金融機構的監理我們的要求可以分幾種不同等級剛才委員提到像銀行它的設立就是100億這是非常非常高的門檻像我們的保險公司大概20億左右"},{"start":338.283,"end":363.866,"text":"譬如我們證券的話一個差不多四億一個業別相較之下我們未來對虛擬資產的這些的要求應該是屬於比較偏向證券業這樣的一個規模不會用一個剛才講的畢竟經營的範圍經營的內容跟生物還是很大不同我的提案聽起來是會沒有就是說如果用報備制的話有可能會整個我們用核准制會產生一個這個所謂的差異"},{"start":364.867,"end":377.688,"text":"我們現在從這個分不同的業別就已經有這個精神那我們還是希望說這個產業還是要經過我們用一個事前許可的方式用報備畢竟是在過去我們的執照上很少用報備制來做"},{"start":379.605,"end":402.435,"text":"主委我們關於穩定幣的分類與監理我們有境外落地的一個挑戰我想這個穩定幣的幣值它佔虛擬貨幣市場的交易量目前看起來超過80%而且它已經具有支付工具的潛力目前的市場主流是USDT和USDC這種境外發行的法幣這個背對型的穩定幣"},{"start":404.756,"end":430.308,"text":"所以請問對於我們境外穩定幣的實質落地條件是否應該區分全背對型與演算法型的不同風險其實現在我們法規應該不會開放演算型過去很多出事的大概就演算型那我們還是開放以法幣作為直接擔保抵押就不會接受演算型的這個穩定幣"},{"start":432.409,"end":457.007,"text":"好那另外關於去中心化協議啊這個DeFi的與境內影響性原則虛擬資產都是來自境外嘛目前去中心化這個的金融的協議的DeFi的盛行請問如果要求境外平台必須在台設立法人並取得許可這在操作面上是否可能存在盲點其實這個問題如果說各位"},{"start":458.968,"end":477.913,"text":"其實委員在您的版本也有提到這個概念就是我們希望說境外的在台灣你一定要有據點的呈現再來就是我們現在境外的資產境外的各式各樣的虛擬資產如果你要在台灣的合法的VASP上面上架的話你必須要經過我的同意這樣的話以確保否則現在"},{"start":479.4,"end":495.566,"text":"等於國際上虛擬資產五花八門各種就是比較那些可能比如說空氣避一大堆這種東西我們基於保護交易人的那個角度我們希望能夠經過我們同意才在國內的虛擬資產業者的交易平台上出現所以未來我們如何認定"},{"start":498.727,"end":514.289,"text":"認定這些沒有實體透過智能合約運作這些DeFi或者不打算在台設點卻大量有台灣用戶的這些境外的巨頭啊軍管會如何認定其實質營運人啊要如何去認定"},{"start":515.751,"end":538.837,"text":"他在境外他一定有提供一個產品或是一個服務這個服務要接近我們的交易人他必須透過我們的VASP業者那VASP業就是我剛才講的一個掌控點剛才有跟委員報告就是說我們面對境外的話我們國內有更多我們監管的掌控點的話就可以進行這樣的一個規範跟約束這樣也是維持市場公平的這個"},{"start":540.177,"end":564.437,"text":"整個產品跟有序監理這個我的版本中我有引入境內影響性原則只要對本國市場產生重大影響皆應納入監理的一個邊界現在的那個草案就是這樣就是這樣嘛就是這樣精神像委員版本說境外你沒有加入工會不能營業本來就是這樣是好"},{"start":565.037,"end":579.304,"text":"我想虛擬資產涉及支付稅務洗錢增辦與技術研發絕非金管會一個部門可以獨立完成所以本席的提案版本認為必須跨部會的來做這個做等一下"},{"start":584.554,"end":611.577,"text":"就跨部會的做協作模式的法制化來邀集央行法務部財政部數位部等單位跨部會的協作模式才能避免多頭馬車或前者不明而主管金官應在執法中明定各部會的執掌例如央行負責穩定幣對貨幣政策的衝擊評估數位部負責技術安全的認證所以主委你是否支持這種跨部會協議機制的明文化"},{"start":612.518,"end":637.561,"text":"其實剛剛委員講的就是這個假設完整的分化會是這樣做但是實際上基於監理的整合更比較像說應該就像我們草案裡面提到穩定幣是由財政部來主政但是相關的法規我們要匯商央行同意的方式等於說是我們共管的方式那假設這樣的像剛剛委員的建議這樣的一個管理架構比較少見但是跨部會協作"},{"start":639.402,"end":662.218,"text":"這個絕對要做但是怎麼在一部法律裡面誰主要負責誰負責協助一起同意那我想這個是我們在未來立法像我們的草案裡面對於穩定幣就非常明確就是要經過跟央行跟金管會之間的協助這樣所以基本上這個精神是支持的這本來就應該是這樣草案裡面法條裡面要怎麼寫對這個要再做研議啦其實謝謝我們也會一樣會會去做這件事情好 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謝局長跟蔡局長好 委員長那個彭主委 你有沒有去過杜拜沒有沒有喔對杜拜啊 它在這幾年把虛擬資產以及很多的財富管理"},{"start":48.366,"end":63.613,"text":"統統加大幅度讓杜拜平地起高樓成一個新的交易中心它的雄心壯志值不值得台灣的學習"},{"start":65.202,"end":90.806,"text":"其實杜拜從他過去開始有少量的石油他知道他未來的發展會受到局限開始全力發展境外的各種中心我覺得他們的本質上他有他非常非常令人刮目相看的成績那我想這個虛擬資產只是其中之一而已香港的金融中心地位現在逐年的下降"},{"start":92.438,"end":109.03,"text":"你會不會想把台灣打造成一個全世界華人的財富管理中心讓台灣成為全世界虛擬資產的交易中心"},{"start":111.174,"end":135.111,"text":"跟委員說明就是說我想我們在很多場合我們希望台灣成為在亞洲的資產管理中心之一這樣的一個計畫我們持續在推動這裡面包括很多比如說我們所謂的資產管理假設未來虛擬資產也是成為一個合規的資產項目的話那自然會隨著這個趨勢然後也納入到我們的整個的"},{"start":135.791,"end":160.936,"text":"未來發展規劃項目所以你的意思是說現在虛擬資產的交易不合規囉現在我們講說就跟全世界一樣就是說這個資產某種程度我剛才在報告裡提到各國都朝向專法讓它合規化來監管的這個模式來前進台灣也是這樣那這樣當然更有助於我們在政策上推動的一個基礎啦"},{"start":163.444,"end":181.735,"text":"那請央行那幾個數據也請諸位了解一下我們的外匯存底現在大概六千多億的美金全世界有哪幾個國家外匯存底裡面是有這個虛擬資產當作他的儲備的"},{"start":185.803,"end":208.538,"text":"是 各位有報告 我想大部分的主要國家應該都還沒有把這個比特幣等這些資產放入他的外匯存底因為這個可能在他的準備裡面會有但是外匯存底的定義裡面可能比較不容易美國的國庫署啊他們國家資產裡面有沒有虛擬貨幣"},{"start":210.087,"end":228.982,"text":"有 他們應該是之前沒收得到的但是這個也不會是放在外匯存體裡面是好 那請問美國有沒有相關虛擬貨幣的交易已經正式展開您是指央行跟外面的還是虛擬貨幣啊 在股市買賣來 請簡董事長好了"},{"start":236.766,"end":262.752,"text":"美國是去年還是前年有發了幾檔虛擬貨幣的ETF?據我所知,虛擬貨幣的ETF在美國、加拿大或其他有些國家是有在掛牌新加坡掛了沒?我沒有確定,不過我想應該要查一下才能確認"},{"start":264.589,"end":283.82,"text":"請問台灣的第一檔有關虛擬貨幣的資產第一個上市,上櫃買中心大概是什麼時候我們櫃買中心還沒有虛擬資產的ETF掛牌有沒有相關的個股是有關虛擬貨幣的"},{"start":288.583,"end":315.527,"text":"報告委員我們目前沒有這樣子的掛牌公司目前沒有嗎那你希望台灣第一個看得到是什麼時候向委員報告我想這個我們在虛擬資產的服務法相關的法規制度這些交易都必須要健全然後我們才可能再去衍生這個ETF相關的產品來掛牌我想這個應該是有順序的先後"},{"start":316.479,"end":337.357,"text":"好 那央行麻煩一下你會不會擔心以台幣計價的穩定幣及相關的合規的虛擬資產成為大多數人生活中的一小部分的時候央行的地位會受到影響"},{"start":339.5,"end":353.822,"text":"我想我們之前有分析過啦穩定幣目前來看的話它也是一種資產的一個配置它不會就對我們的金融體系來講並不會有目前來觀察是不會有太大的一個影響所以你不會怕它"},{"start":354.921,"end":376.084,"text":"就我們的銀行體系然後跟民眾持有這個穩定幣的部分那假設我們有在目前的法規的規範之下我認為這個不會是一個會變成對我們的金融體系造成一個威脅所以不怕他會不會面對他會不會面對他接受他照顧他愛護他"},{"start":379.488,"end":406.277,"text":"我想穩定幣的部分就央行的觀點就銀行的觀點我想這個部分應該跟這個是不太一樣我們央行的觀點一直都是著重在穩定幣是否視為貨幣它跟M2之間的一個替代的一個問題那我們之前都有分析過事實上這個在整個金融體系裡面在整個銀行體系裡面對貨幣的定義裡面影響並不是很大那這是我們央行所關注的部分那至於穩定幣"},{"start":407.757,"end":421.912,"text":"會不會如何健全發展關注他我想這個不是我們央行的職權我們央行關注的是他對M2的一個影響那現在央行發行的數字貨幣什麼時候開始正式上市"},{"start":425.044,"end":444.709,"text":"我們現在國內電子資助體系也相當的多元便利所以發行綠帖的CPTC這部分我們沒有急迫性但是我們現在有把CPTC的雛形平台轉換成數位金流平台然後支援政府發各種的數位券或數位幣"},{"start":445.589,"end":464.565,"text":"那目前是有支援客家委員會的客家幣那未來我們現在還要跟運動部的運動幣還有那個衛福部的健康幣在洽談合作之中 謝謝好 謝謝 那請那個彭主委台灣究竟是一個對虛擬資產 虛擬貨幣是比較正面支持的態度呢"},{"start":470.563,"end":496.665,"text":"或者根本你就是反對他們進來反對這個產業的發展當然不是跟我們說明其實我們這個產業已經在了我們從比如說從過去這麼多年來從剛才講的比如說他用聲明登記到現在其實我們現在市場已經有8家業者在運作對現在在的情況是大家可能不清楚本來有26家"},{"start":498.393,"end":510.826,"text":"倒到現在像你剛剛講的幾家應該講說我們篩選這些適合在台灣發展的對嘛 你就用篩選我是用民間懂的話叫做到倒啊那為什麼會不見為什麼會變少"},{"start":517.475,"end":535.995,"text":"就是變成你對這個產業裡面有積極的輔導嗎?其實我們輔導也要看對象就像比如過去很多過去在聲名制人因為當時的是因為反洗錢的這樣的規範所以很多發生了非常多的弊端我想社會都看到了"},{"start":536.556,"end":557.503,"text":"透過我們的管制讓這個市場逐步的邁入秩序而且穩健這是政府該做的事並不是說我們去把誰給弄到無法經營我想就是因為我們希望留下的業者都能夠確實的遵守而且持續的讓市場更為健全這是一個挑戰當然可是也是一個機會"},{"start":559.178,"end":577.554,"text":"你有沒有算過我們的這些上市公司很多它因為新台幣的上上下下對這個企業來講它有時候成本以及風險非常大非常大如果有一個新台幣計價"},{"start":581.058,"end":600.708,"text":"做發行依靠的新台幣的穩定幣每個人在接單的時候在國際上都可以確認他的支出他的成本他是可以算得出來的這個單一千億要接不接我們馬上就可以鎖住"},{"start":602.805,"end":627.633,"text":"現在每一次都還經過銀行的換匯你知道包括保險公司相關的這些匯損一年大概損失有多少不一定都匯損有時候會有因為利率在波動中交易的費用沒有它本質上就是一個波動帳面上本來就有波動不見得都是損失"},{"start":629.283,"end":657.083,"text":"保險公司出去你每次都要有一些賄損準備啊那是外交準備金我們現在有訂了非常非常明確的規定那這部分那只是因應他的波動這個外交準備金是其中之一啊一年大概七八十億十年就七八百億還有很多的企業都不回來啊因為他放香港低稅戶還有他的操作也比較快"},{"start":658.089,"end":678.661,"text":"你如果有一個新台幣計價的穩定幣會出現什麼情況如果禮拜五就可以決定了啊禮拜六禮拜天銀行不上班很多事情他都可以交割嘛而且台灣現在一年放假放幾天"},{"start":681.753,"end":692.409,"text":"這個我沒有統計一百一十五一百一十六天所以企業存在很多的不確定性有個穩定幣馬上就可以決定啊所以請 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辛苦了上禮拜有專報的時候有提到你們會把這個虛擬資產服務法送到立法院來不過我們今天稍微先排了在野黨的版本那我先請教一下就是說現在本土是有八家的交易所"},{"start":49.049,"end":72.785,"text":"八家業者,不全是交易所八家業者,八家業者你們讓他取得許可嘛對不對對,登記制那現在就是還想講說因為你本土人你有來申請這個許可那你們也審查過了讓他有取得這個許可那但是海外的部分大家還是在講說海外的部分現在有幾家來跟我們申請"},{"start":75.647,"end":89.533,"text":"過去我想有幾家來詢問怎麼落地來設分支機構那這部分我們也都是因為未來整個這個專法通過以後那條文裡面就直接講了有兩條路徑"},{"start":90.814,"end":105.739,"text":"一個就是說你可以已經國外的機構你可以來台灣設分支機構就是分公司另外也可以你直接投資台灣成立一個本國法律設立的新的機構這兩條路都可以就跟我們一般金融市場是一樣"},{"start":106.539,"end":121.978,"text":"那我的意思是說在專法通過之後他們就一定要來申請嘛海外的一定要來申請嘛對一定要來申請當然當然這是國際的通歷那如果沒有來申請呢因為現在他們不用來申請嘛對不對然後也是活得很好嘛沒有就是說假設"},{"start":122.819,"end":138.908,"text":"今天來就像我們現在很多各位常聽到的地下保單那就是沒有在台灣有據點呈現沒有在台灣取得合法的業務在台灣招攬業務的行為這個就是違法的可是那不太一樣因為其實海外的其實他們是蠻大的一個集團"},{"start":142.23,"end":159.252,"text":"他們不是說像你講的這個所謂的地下交易啦那我們很多也是跟他們有交易那現在問題在於說他們來這邊目前來申請有遇到什麼樣的困難嗎因為這個困難以後你專訪通過他們還是要進來啊當然這個這部分的每一家公司的狀況不太一樣"},{"start":160.293,"end":177.574,"text":"那比如說他今天來申請設立的話其實我覺得在法規上是沒有障礙當然比如現階段我們包括你是如果是境外的投資還有我們外國人投資條例的規定這裡面有一些比如說特許業務的範圍這些都是那再來還有一些比如說未來像這些"},{"start":178.915,"end":195.569,"text":"資金來源這是從哪裡來這些都是有其他法律在規範那其他都是一些專業的考量就是說你有沒有能力你在台灣如何去展業這部分我們現在未來會越來越周延這些規定所以聽起來是資金來源是比較有問題嗎這是其中之一而已"},{"start":196.77,"end":224.153,"text":"那好那所以就是說如果專法通過之後他們就一定要來申請嘛所以你講那些問題他們也都必須要做處理嘛如果說你要在台灣實體的執行業務比如說就像前陣子比如說有委員關心說你沒有經過同意怎麼會在台灣的公車車體上看到你的廣告那基本上這個就是一個非常非常明顯或者說你竟然在台灣招攬業務人員在幫你做這些行銷這些問題大概就是這個很很具體的違反這些規定還有就是說"},{"start":225.054,"end":245.797,"text":"你公然的跟我們很多的金融機構或是其他機構有營業的行為我想這部分大概就很明確了好那再請教一下其實我上禮拜有問過現在就是說那個穩定幣那穩定幣現在就是說因為有一些外商應該是台商跟外商他們在這一個在交易的時候可能這一個"},{"start":246.697,"end":266.722,"text":"這個外商或是說那個外國的企業會給我們這一個台商穩定幣那現在就是說那台商拿到穩定幣之後現在在台灣的部分銀行的接受度是怎麼樣他們怎麼處理這一些穩定幣呢現在的話就是說我們現在這也是我們關注到因為銀行是大家信認度高的一個金融機構"},{"start":267.802,"end":291.42,"text":"如果未來比如說你的這些虛擬資產的保管能夠在銀行某種程度等於說你可以把它存在我的銀行那當然對我的安全性也可以當然對於持有者而言它可以存在自己的錢包也可以請銀行來做比如說信託或來做保管的管理我們就推動那個示範大概有應該有19家的銀行有興趣我們現在有5家正在做示範中"},{"start":292.08,"end":317.57,"text":"示範多久了示範有一陣子了示範到現在有遇到什麼樣的問題嗎其實我覺得基礎上當然每個人所採用的方式不一樣我們希望能夠整合出一個比較好的方法比較有效率的方式來做不過這個是很重要讓金融業能夠跟整個虛擬資產業做一個整合結合還有取得社會信任非常重要的一個工作我們會來加速來處理"},{"start":320.973,"end":335.872,"text":"現在是事辦那你們有指引嗎或是說規範嗎還是說全部要等到專法通過之後再來處理這一塊事辦跟這個是兩個獨立的那我想局長有沒有什麼補充現在事辦的情形"},{"start":336.859,"end":349.549,"text":"有 跟委員報告那這個部分我們也有參考香港HKMA的相關指引那我們會請銀行公會就試辦的部分我們會在六個月之內訂出指引出來那所以你說要試辦多久啦"},{"start":351.524,"end":369.518,"text":"試辦的期程原則上是一年但是我們會開始了嘛 因為我今天昨天講說已經開始了從哪時候開始的啊應該大概半年前就陸陸續續開始可是那個指引還沒有定出來還沒有定出來那怎麼會試辦沒有指引出來咧我知道你現在有指引出來之後再試辦嗎"},{"start":370.899,"end":395.051,"text":"通常就是業務先行之後我們覺得說必須要再進一步相關的去做相關的規管那我們也參考國外的一些那這半年來有遇到一些什麼問題嗎因為他們事辦的這個就是業務的內容比較簡單而且那個就是接受保管的這個這個幣呢是相對來講那個量是有限縮的對所以風險是可控都是美元嗎"},{"start":396.292,"end":403.658,"text":"有公股銀行嗎?目前沒有公股銀行公股銀行是比較保守"},{"start":415.717,"end":433.425,"text":"客人經營的業務的選擇啦剛剛委員有提到就是說我們試辦就是希望透過試辦跟業者一起來觀察你的情況他會比所謂的指引規定會先行才要試辦當我們指引出來以後就直接開辦了所以這個本來就是這個過程所以指引說大概哪時候會出來他六個月之內"},{"start":434.83,"end":460.707,"text":"從現在算六個月之內嗎?對那再請教一下,因為這一檔的版本比較不一樣就是說這個衍生性的商品那現在金管會是站在比較保守的一個立場嗎?不是,比較穩健,其實我們也不保守就是說我們覺得現階段我想各位都知道我們一般的衍生性商品都已經很不容易理解了"},{"start":461.007,"end":476.949,"text":"那再來就以這個波動這麼大的這些的產品還有就是大家對它熟悉度不高的產品直接就開放到衍生性商品我想這個以台灣現在的監理環境我們也不認為現在馬上做就很適當但是呢當然"},{"start":478.331,"end":502.188,"text":"我剛剛也提到了就是假設業者有這個能力國際上也有很明確的規範再來有做好很好的封控我想這部分本來就是一個我們已經預留在一個彈性裡面所以說其實我們已經對外講過很多次這其實上本來就是我們隨時都可以來跟進可是這個在國外應該算是蠻成熟的一個產品了吧其實也不是成熟只是有人在做這些事情"},{"start":503.369,"end":532.222,"text":"當然這個東西牽涉到槓桿倍數是非常高那就是說目前在專法上面是沒有把這一部分把它規範在裡面沒有 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主席有請顧部長那麼其他如果遇到題目有相關需要協助或詢答的這些官員再請你們自己上台來 謝謝請顧部長"},{"start":13.703,"end":35.362,"text":"是 林委好 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H64D Block 2然後當它進入預約的時候變成Block 3然後等到實際原因是什麼是因為有一定的時間新的機型出來了對不對對你就得重修所有的條文"},{"start":220.114,"end":245.09,"text":"沒錯 那言下之意就是如果現在就講定了未來進入議約程序有新的機種出來我們買還是不買我們要買舊的嗎到時候在野黨又講說有新的不買你們為什麼不買好 第二個因為時間有限把整個授權的時間一年一千而且甚至於改成還需要修法我想在野黨的版本甚至於國民黨都說二零二二零二八年就要執行完畢喔那麼說實話"},{"start":247.344,"end":260.041,"text":"我們是所謂賣方市場在整個軍購的過程當中包括連現在我們都還沒有進入所謂的預約期的狀況底下如果這樣切碎又會造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":261.317,"end":285.049,"text":"是不是到時候買不到我們所有的軍售案跟美方簽署發價書的時候一定是其成就已經確定了好我就問發價書等不等於估價單等不等於銷售單那它的意義上又是什麼因為我相信在場很多委員可能都還搞不清楚啊"},{"start":287.479,"end":304.865,"text":"發價書實際上真正的作用它是一個書面的美國對我們的安全承諾也是透過這個安全承諾表達它可以供授給我們的項量跟概括金額那這個部分在後續都必須要經過預約才能夠確定所有的項目"},{"start":306.03,"end":326.7,"text":"所以很清楚嘛如果這種一年一千或者甚至於把年限就放在現在已經是2026年的三月中了已經是三月底了如果這樣的期程依照國民黨的版本的話2028年來得及完成嗎那如果來不及美方不會同意這種做法為什麼"},{"start":328.447,"end":345.872,"text":"因為他一個發架書簽署之後,他就是齊成跟蓋孤金額還有向亮在我們雙方議談完之後做一個確認他不會讓你一份發架書去做好幾次的這個談判好,我們現場副主記長是不是在現場"},{"start":350.66,"end":369.128,"text":"好 副主委長有請因為這個除了國防部之外因為跟預算執行有關國民黨的第七條特別提到了那就是如果執行這個所謂的特別條例沒有完成如果有不法的話要送監察院但是我想請問的是我剛剛一直強調這是賣方市場包括美國它有它一定的產製的時間跟期程跟廠商的問題如果像這樣要來究責的話"},{"start":379.173,"end":398.08,"text":"那這個到底責任是在我們國防部的官員執行的官員還是在美方我們是要把美國美方的軍人抓來這裡審判嗎還是把美國的廠商抓來這裡來來來來罰則你有看到第七條嗎國民黨第七條對所以基本上我們認為那個未來會是有自然難行之處"},{"start":399.266,"end":427.475,"text":"那如果是這樣的話你有什麼建議應該要怎麼樣來處理基本上我想我們在預算執行的時候本來就有各種規範那所有的我們的這個行政院的這些公務員或者是軍人他都依照相關的規範在執行所以基本上不用特別在訂定這樣的一個條文大家都會依照相關的規範去"},{"start":428.755,"end":449.665,"text":"做執行好 但是本席擔憂的是部長如果真是如此的話依照我們當然為什麼我們全力支持行政院的版本那是一個在為台灣設立所謂台灣之盾的情況底下的完全的整備所以包括年限 包括金額 包括方向特別條例基本上它不是一個特別預算有特別條例才會變特別預算"},{"start":452.586,"end":472.875,"text":"但是如果說如同現在第七條所規定的甚至於是讓這些負責採購的公務員都擔憂自己要送監察院要考核這個還沒有做事就要先安上一個罪名我想就像我說的為什麼我舉出三大荒謬之處是看得到吃不到可能也做不到"},{"start":474.556,"end":496.852,"text":"我想如果要講這個逐年審查,如果沒有辦法能夠如期審訊,那只能夠在上年度執行額度內履約或者預算有可能在審查的過程中遭刪減凍結那麼在付款的這個高度不確定的風險下,我們就會衍生我們的違約跟廠商不願意如期交裝的一個"},{"start":497.911,"end":522.251,"text":"然後也可能需要支付額外的軍購裝備延遲的起運存管的一些費用等等所以逐年進入交裝跟付款的高峰期的階段,這種情況會更為嚴峻那會無法依照計畫來形成戰力,那對整個建運備戰的工作當然就產生非常嚴重不利的影響"},{"start":522.972,"end":530.601,"text":"好 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梁國雄主持長虛擬貨幣的定性跟營業稅相關的爭議是我在今天我們今天討論這個服務專法我要特別提出來因為這個專法其實在國際上歐盟跟日本其實新加坡其實早就已經上路了那我們其實比較慢但是我覺得這件事情無論在法律上的定位跟定性我覺得都要"},{"start":58.292,"end":80.304,"text":"討論得更清楚後續在監管跟課稅的部分我覺得跟國際上一致我們才能夠推動得更順利但是在按照過去複稅署的說法加密貨幣它其實沒有證券性所以過去你們是傾向把比特幣或者是一代幣定位成它是一個商品"},{"start":81.004,"end":85.406,"text":"他是虛擬商品所以那我就要請問一下組長就說如果一般民眾經常性的買賣這個買賣他的買賣金額超過所謂營業稅的起徵點未來到底是不是需要課徵營業稅這是我第一個問題可不可以回應我"},{"start":102.835,"end":127.113,"text":"呃 報告委員 就是剛才 誠如剛才委員有講的就是買賣貨幣到底有沒有涉及到證券或非證券那其實我們在之前109年就已經有核試它如果是屬於證券性質的一個虛擬資產的話它原則上應該要課徵我們證交稅那目前的話就是千分之一的證交稅是有在核課的如果有發行這些去做交易的話可是你現在 因為之前負稅署的說法是它並沒有證券性質喔"},{"start":127.893,"end":127.933,"text":"陳美萍議員"},{"start":152.111,"end":153.872,"text":"目前還沒有 因為我們也是在看專法的"},{"start":182.431,"end":210.288,"text":"這個不存在就是說跟過去傳統消費的加值或加工行為事實上是不一樣的那在國際上你剛才也提到就是說歐盟跟日本新加坡規定加密貨幣是免徵營業稅的部分針對這部分當然是我們複稅署財政部的權責所以未來其實對於你們立法的方向你們到底是遵循國際上你們的看法是如何我覺得外界也都在關注這樣的一個重點"},{"start":211.309,"end":240.429,"text":"那這個部分你們會不會有自己的時間表出來什麼時候會有最後的決定我們目前是會看專法這邊的一些相關的一個方向就是跟他就是整個管理的政策如果說能夠很確定的話那我們整個後面我們研擬我們課稅的一個規定就會比較周全那稱如剛才委員有講到的的確在定性方面的話他可能因為我們很快可能我們的版本因為我不知道行政院版本什麼時候會進來但是我們版本通過你們如果還沒有的話我可能就會認為"},{"start":242.871,"end":257.431,"text":"這個修法就會沒有行政院的意見這就不太周全了解 會緊鑼密鼓的趕快去處理這一塊好 一個月之內好不好好 那第二個我要詢問的就是現在境內外的付稅套利的跟資金外流的部分"},{"start":258.392,"end":274.557,"text":"我就要請教你們包括剛才有其他委員提到包括境內平台買賣虛擬貨幣的稅制的差別就是說我們一般在境外的部分買賣有海外的所得我們有100萬的不用申報那750萬就是說有獲利的話是不用去繳稅是免稅的狀態但是在境內的平台我們計算它所得最高有累計稅率40%"},{"start":284.6,"end":311.25,"text":"所以在這邊未來我們如何去處理這一塊因為這個變相的變成鼓勵民眾把資金移向海外的交易平台那我們在設立這樣一個法案的時候我覺得在台灣上我覺得就會造成國內稅基的流失因為大家變成說反而在境外投資反而我們免稅的金額是比較高的所以你們的意見到底有什麼樣的解方"},{"start":313.595,"end":332.629,"text":"目前的確是在財產的一個交易所得的話如果是登記境內的財產它是會算我們國內的所得然後境外的就會用海外所得那現在就是你們有發現這樣的問題對不對?是的確會有一些制度上適用是不一樣的那我們就沒有課到稅啦"},{"start":335.266,"end":348.298,"text":"課稅這個部分是後續我們課稅資料收集的問題啦當然因為如果他有一些交易的話金額有超過我們當然還是會議規定要去課稅的境外這一塊所以還沒有想法"},{"start":349.505,"end":362.983,"text":"目前我們一樣是配合這個專法後續有一些資料收集你們這個專法我早就已經聽到行政院其實你們內部已經有版本了但是這麼重要的事情你們居然都還不知道要怎麼辦我覺得"},{"start":364.344,"end":383.831,"text":"可以聽聽我們金管和彭主委的意見跟後續怎麼去做處理比較好我們當然希望我們這次資產管理法留在台灣然後所有業者我們管理業者嘛但是我們覺得政府還是應該可以課到應該有的稅這是很重要的精神嗎主委你可不可以回應我一下謝謝委員的關心我想說"},{"start":386.252,"end":400.962,"text":"確實稅制本身會影響資金的流動我想這個大家都知道那剛剛講委員提到這個東西應該不是只有虛擬資產的問題啦應該是我們所有的境內境外投資本來有它政策上的考慮所以這我們尊重財政部的專業"},{"start":403.504,"end":426.524,"text":"對 這個其實不是只有財政部的專業其實虛擬資產的監理是我們從洗錢 防治法 納管走向專法 我們全面都控管我們不要任何漏洞政府都可以看得到 管得到還不只是課稅的問題所以我想聽聽這雖然是財政部的夜館的內容但是我也想聽聽主委您的意見"},{"start":427.225,"end":446.087,"text":"如果站在我們的立場,我還是要強調數位有專攻,租稅的當時會設計這樣一定有他的考慮這個我們講的只是純粹是我們從我們的角度來思考那我們當然希望說我們納管這個業者,希望說能夠給國人提供更好的這樣一個條件"},{"start":447.569,"end":468.517,"text":"那我也希望說盡量把這個交易能夠站在我們的同意的標準來納管是 所以境內平台也可以有討論調整的空間嘛讓我們更有優勢嘛 國內的平台更有優勢嘛對 其實財政部當時會這樣規定我在猜一定有他自己專業非常多考量經過充分的討論那當然這新的事務我想這部分我們還是會跟"},{"start":469.017,"end":488.51,"text":"主委我的時間不多但是我最後您自己主動上來我就希望說財政部在這一塊要多聽聽跟金管會多溝通我們希望就是說未來的整個資金流動從習先方這法到全面的納管這是在國內重要的精神那怎麼樣留住所有的錢我們政府都可以"},{"start":489.23,"end":502.261,"text":"看得到管得到然後也留住這個平台多使用我們國內的平台這是我重要的主張另外就是說再鎖的對不起這跟後續財政部還是比較有關係虛擬資產的認定方式有三種一個是換幣級的換成或者換成法幣級課第三種是出金才課"},{"start":511.529,"end":531.809,"text":"但是現在在市場上比較常見的交易就是比特幣換成美金或者是比特幣換成泰幣甚至是比特幣換成USDT所以這樣的操作方式在財政部現行的解釋之下到底算不算是實現所得它的所得到底是怎麼去做計算"},{"start":534.008,"end":548.047,"text":"在精神上你們的看法是什麼因為很多人就是他把他換成就是到最後把比特幣換成以太幣或者比特幣或以太幣換成USDT那他就放在那個錢包裡面"},{"start":549.368,"end":554.973,"text":"賺他超過那個所得就是說到底說要課稅比如說也超過700萬750萬還是700萬750萬照理說要課稅但是他就放在海外消費他就放在他海外的錢包裡面消費所以你也課不到這一筆那這個部分後續怎麼去做處理這到底算不算實現所得就是說"},{"start":571.752,"end":585.063,"text":"他賺的錢他可能超過750萬照理說超過750萬是要課稅要申報要課稅但他就放在海外錢包裡面那就直接拿那個錢包在海外消費那這個到底算不算所得"},{"start":588.4,"end":588.681,"text":"這個未來委員有提到"},{"start":604.148,"end":620.515,"text":"避別之間的轉換還有出金等等的這些課稅其實依照現在的所得稅法一些規定它其實只要有一些交易行為只要一個transaction它其實應該都會要繼續計算所得的跟它後面賺到所得以後去做花費那可能是另外一件"},{"start":621.236,"end":636.068,"text":"我今天只寻到现在16秒我觉得很多事情财政部都还没有想得很清楚都没有办法回应我的答案我都不知道行政院什么时候我希望一个月之后你们可以有你们的想法出来后面我们在讨论这个法案的时候才有机会更周全"},{"start":636.748,"end":658.477,"text":"最後十秒鐘我請問一下主委就是說現在虛擬貨幣的監管有一個漏洞就是很多的幣圈老師跟貸單群組其實這個是有問題的看起來其實是不是虛擬資產交易其實我們有要求不得有意圖影響價格的操作行為但是這些貸圈幣圈的老師跟貸單的群組其實"},{"start":661.238,"end":671.645,"text":"他們都有在說應該怎麼買或怎麼賣或者應該什麼時候應該進場等等所以金管會未來是不是會把虛擬資產分析跟顧問的行為納入管理"},{"start":672.588,"end":698.161,"text":"我想這個有關交易行為我們再過去其他的相對應的金融商品已經開始納管比如對網紅我們也有一些規範那未來在金融消費者保護法還有就是我們對這些專業的資格條件裡面從業人員的資格條件也會有訂定相關的專法這個未來在一個有秩序的市場應該都是會受到合理的規範好 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目前我們看到的也是就是國外的都是針對穩定幣的發行商是都是不給利息的那但是在平台商的部分 借貸商的部分因為他在國外的話因為有這個借貸的行為所以他們有的是複習的那他們也不算是一個複習的一個機制最主要是因為是一種就是一個補償這個借貸這個時間持有的過程裡面可是我看到剛剛我給你秀給你看到10%欸 這麼高欸"},{"start":174.83,"end":199.998,"text":"你會不會覺得這個USDT、USDC都有這麼高短時間,比如說上個月給9%、給10%這個有,還要給到20幾%都有耶不過我想我應該知道比如說我們短期資金之間的拆借本來就是一個供需市場本來就會有一個跟我們一般長期的比如說存款的利率本來就不太一樣我的意思是說這個他們是從供需來決定的"},{"start":203.43,"end":208.054,"text":"我們看到最近在三月的時候外資賣掉差不多七千億"},{"start":220.826,"end":243.041,"text":"這個是台股這個重點很重要的原因之一那就是 這個是為什麼看啊 主委我們的台股這個持續一直收低啊因為油價持續走高嘛油價甚至於有人估到說要破120有人說170 有人說180這個東西 這一句話對不對啦我請問潘主委啊"},{"start":248.104,"end":268.558,"text":"每一個戰爭沒有停止的話 國術就對不對 這就對不對我想這次影響全球不是只有台灣的原因我想大家都非常非常的明瞭這很清晰啊就是說是主要因為這個戰爭影響周邊這個共有的穩定我想這個大家非常非常清楚至於說"},{"start":269.578,"end":295.663,"text":"這樣的時間有多久影響有多大那各自去解讀各自去判斷所以這個市場訊息匯集到市場上進行反應我想這個大概就是全球都是一樣的那這個原因已經非常清楚不是說有些什麼大家不知道的原因只是大家必須要我問你這句話你同意不同意只要美伊的戰爭不止的話股市得不停這句話同不同意這個其實這句話本來就很複雜"},{"start":298.283,"end":325.125,"text":"就是像比如過去我們比如說美伊的戰爭其實並沒有停止但是股市本來就有漲有跌啊就是並不是說這件事一定就是往下跌所以從過去這兩禮拜來兩三禮拜各位都看到了各種消息面對影響預期產生的結果就是不同沒有 主委我問你齁那這個外資賣超了7000億啊請教養老啦這7000億跑去哪裡啊會出國外嗎 還是說趴在國內"},{"start":327.338,"end":334.468,"text":"依據我們現在目前的規定外資匯進來國內投資股票當他在賣完股票之後就是會匯出去"},{"start":336.325,"end":359.736,"text":"他不能夠繼續趴在這裡啊他會有時間趴就是還是暫時有部分會暫時但是陸陸續續都還是會出去所以七千多億全部出去了嗎七千多億全部出去了嗎大部分都在過去這一個月就是說三月以來的賣超的部分目前至少部分還陸陸續續會暫時這個是造成台幣最近一直變的原因是不是"},{"start":361.297,"end":389.315,"text":"對這是最主要台幣在外匯市場上面就是這個需求美元的需求大於供給最主要的一個因素你們有沒有進場調解是有沒有進場調解工具失衡比較大的時候我們會進場調解先有失衡嗎在過去幾天有幾天有出現這樣的一個情況所以前幾天你們有進場有總裁在上次就是禮拜四的那個李建勢會後的記者會也有對外有這樣的一個所以可見的你們心目中還是有一條"},{"start":390.536,"end":394.077,"text":"總裁還有我們央行的立場都是很清楚我們沒有所謂的一個防線"},{"start":407.242,"end":426.292,"text":"沒辦法知道未來美元指數它會走到哪邊去會有多強多弱這要看全球的國際金融市場的變化才能來看我想總裁也一再都有對外說明過沒有這個所謂的防線表面沒有啦 心裡有啦我這句要同意吧"},{"start":427.682,"end":444.113,"text":"心裡有啊 爸你要緊張幹嘛你還要去啊你完全尊重市場 你還要去啊你心裡一定有嘛我們心裡最關注的應該就是供需的失衡加上波動太大供需明顯失衡的時間這個時候我們要給大姐的最主要的一個關鍵你同意我講的吧"},{"start":446.345,"end":471.797,"text":"比特首還是在幹綠碼對不對其實我比較同意總裁跟局長講的啦我比較同意那個局長跟總裁所以你不同意我講的沒有 我覺得他們講的比較符合實際那委員講的是你自己的覺得32就是心理防線嘛看不見的隱形那條線就在那裡對不對 就出現了嘛"},{"start":473.232,"end":482.301,"text":"賓果嘛就出現了嘛我覺得再差一點就32.5啦大概不會跌破32.5嘛是不是"},{"start":486.809,"end":499.517,"text":"我想這還是要看國際金融機制你剛才說你前幾天有護盤有去調節那個時候是幾塊錢不一定大概就是外資集中匯出比較大的時候這個我想我們會定期就是講你一定記得很清楚你是操作的你一定知道啊幾塊錢的時候你們進場的"},{"start":510.985,"end":520.413,"text":"沒有特定說幾塊錢就是當天的市場的一個大概幾塊錢那天是幾塊錢我想過去這幾天大概台幣的價格大概在31.5到32之間對嘛所以就是我講的對啊主委真的有說瞎話"},{"start":527.038,"end":549.894,"text":"還有不同意我講的你要同意我講的啦其實我還是比較贊成就是央行他本於職權做了很多業務上面的這些的作為我想這個跟委員自己的認知那當然委員可以自己有自己的認知啦我想這部分是還是尊重他不是隨便認知啦我就是觀察這樣看這樣想這樣想結果就是這樣嘛就是進場的時候就31.5到32這樣來最後一個問題請教主委喔"},{"start":554.978,"end":570.693,"text":"那個黃金存摺喔是不是一定要送貨我真的覺得是不是黃金存摺啊這部分我沒有沒辦法立刻回答我看請那個局長可以跟您做個簡單的回覆好不好好 局長來"},{"start":572.205,"end":588.777,"text":"這是屬於金管會嗎?金管會嗎?銀行跟我們申請黃金存摺業務的部分他們會去做相關的避險但這個避險的對等的工具是不是就是實體黃金這個我們並沒有特別的規定因為現在有人跟我分運的"},{"start":590.489,"end":610.054,"text":"他說他要去存摺,他要存黃金,買黃金的存摺,因為不太賣,原因就是他們沒有現貨,所以他們沒有現貨,因為賺不到現貨,所以他不要賣,你們這個是怎麼樣,我查了一下根據你們的辦法,他要有現貨才能賣喔!"},{"start":613.179,"end":635.99,"text":"但是銀行他在實務商的操作過程裡面如果說有跟客戶約定這個黃金存摺到時候要對領的是新台幣的話那他就不會刻意去存這個黃金的現貨來讓客戶來領因為現貨通常都會到銀樓去買所以銀行最主要是把它當成是一個金融商品在銷售給他的客戶那你這樣子等於銀樓賣空賣空喔"},{"start":636.79,"end":638.051,"text":"它是把它當成是一個金融商品"},{"start":650.046,"end":676.084,"text":"你現在等於說比如說我買了黃金存摺就發現沒有現貨 你是騙我我變這個樣子它是鎖定那個價格也就是說當他在跟客戶說明的時候就是說到時候可能他也會用現貨來交割但他也可以用貨幣來交割所以它最主要是一個投資的金融上如果客戶不要了 客戶就說我最好讓感覺我要實體黃金"},{"start":677.509,"end":700.272,"text":"你要給我啊?是不是這樣?這個部分還是要回歸到說他契約上是怎麼設計的因為通常一般民眾來做這個黃金存摺他可能是要保有這個黃金價格在漲的這個增值的利益所以他不見得說我到時候如果說黃金今天不要漲上去了他不見得要提領這個實體黃金"},{"start":702.434,"end":715.304,"text":"這個我今天清楚了所以銀行賣黃金存摺不一定有黃金沒有想到委員有關這個細節我會請銀行局準備一個完整的說明再給委員參考好吧 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167772","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167772","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8aad07f75cd15367103e8ac6646e11c8ecd7f21695b503ffebd104b08215f3295d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王安祥","委員發言時間":"11:11:24 - 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有請部長有請部長"},{"start":13.266,"end":31.4,"text":"是 王偉好 部長辛苦了那我們今天站在這邊就是為了審這個條例不是審預算所以現在我們要審的是法律案而不是預算案其實前面剛剛很多委員都提出很多這個所謂對美軍購的一個程序所以我們這邊也針對這個軍購程序我們特別讓大家能夠了解我們來跟大家做說明一下其實我們現在看到LOA常常都說這個發出來"},{"start":39.426,"end":63.912,"text":"可是前面其實很多程序 剛剛其實很多委員都講了包括這個LR 還有兩個程序大家現在很多對那個Price P&A跟那個是不是Available其實很有意見其實在這個大家可以看到那個前面的程序裡面其實都有相關的一個程序也就是說國防部如果在完成那個P&A大概Price跟Available能夠確定之後就會有一個規劃書了"},{"start":65.032,"end":80.084,"text":"那我二月一號來來了以後其實我非常重視這種所謂的溝通很多的這個不會來我的說溝通那我覺得是不是應該從規劃書那個地方啊也許就可以來跟我們立法院立法委員來做一些溝通部長您覺得呢"},{"start":83.115,"end":107.813,"text":"LOA for PMA就是我們的一個確立要跟美方進行初步溝通的一個需求性所以就告訴他們我們的request嘛跟他說我們的需求是什麼之後我們獲得初步的一個有關交易期程報價的同意以後我們會進入一個最後的一個建案程序這個建案程序完了之後我們還要報行政院"},{"start":108.994,"end":128.689,"text":"對 不是說看到 我們每次看到都是LOA本黨也是提出了很多預先授權的部分可是我來了以後 發現一直看到都是LOA都已經看到發架書了要架書的地方都沒有 幾乎都我們很多事情都不知道所以基本上我希望好的溝通我們今天因為是一個特別條例的審查我希望能夠強化一些溝通"},{"start":129.85,"end":146.404,"text":"那所以我對這個委員報告因為不管是LOR或PNA或者是LOR或這個LOA是他在還沒有知會國會之前是都是屬於機密的部分是即使我們編列了相關的預算送到大院審查對"},{"start":148.764,"end":170.53,"text":"我的意思是說至少有一些初步的一些結論可以做一些初步的一些溝通而不要等到最後都看到LOA的時候所以上次我們還沒有互委之前事實上還沒有在委員會的時候就是說條例還沒有送委員會我們已經有做過一個完整的專報我們等一下來看一下日期但是有相當部分要採機密專報的方式"},{"start":172.21,"end":195.379,"text":"所以基本上其實我剛才講溝通這個事情所以我們的程序應該是做這個剛剛我這個下面的部分要有作戰需求然後做信用分析然後再獲得規劃書這個大概就是我們的一個期程基本上這個應該是這是我們跟國防部拿到的一個狀況所以其實很多時間大家可以看到這個螢幕上其實時間都大概八月十月九月其實就非常確定了"},{"start":196.549,"end":203.271,"text":"應該是吧 這是國安部的資料就已經確定了就可以過來跟我們大概講一下說我們的對借金的需求大概是什麼"},{"start":206.233,"end":229.021,"text":"剛剛已經跟委員報告了就是說就我們相關的這些部分呢要在能夠公開的這個情況之下這個要請委員能夠體諒那如果相關有必要要排機密專報的話我們當然也很樂意隨時來再進行機密專報的我一直強調 郭董你說那事實上我們在之前也都跟"},{"start":230.041,"end":247.638,"text":"是委員來之前我們都跟每個委員特別是外交官委員都經營過好 感謝部長那這個裡面有很多這種所謂的這個作為費那裡面甚至還有那個18項可以看到這個就是我們今天還有一個新聞就通融單要的部分這個是不是可以說明一下為什麼這個會編在特別預算裡面"},{"start":249.813,"end":262.715,"text":"幫委員我們那個年度的作為費目前幾乎處於一個滿檔的狀況是那您看到那個無人艇跟後面的急缺彈藥那個額度是非常非常高的對那那個18項那個是是不強用的嗎"},{"start":264.879,"end":289.309,"text":"不只 通用的嘛 通用彈藥的部分它包含了我們國內沒有產製 還有我們國內不足的也就是包含122公尼戰車砲彈 拐六公尼砲彈全部都在裡面嘛 所以這個也適合編在特別預算嗎還是應該在我們這個常態的預算裡面 最後的預算裡面來編我們常態的預算裡面 我們估算過我們沒有辦法去滿足 我們要籌購120天戰備存量的需求"},{"start":290.99,"end":305.428,"text":"好 了解那 基於這個 你再看一下16 17 呃 16 18啦齁這個 你們的這個最後的這個規劃書啊其實是完成在114年12月跟115年啦我想這個期程是怎麼回事為什麼會這麼後面才完成呢"},{"start":307.486,"end":331.566,"text":"包委員,我們您看到的那個整規書它完成的時間跟前面我們作虛、細分、施工完成的時間它每一個案子都會有所不同那當然我們這一次特別預算裡面原本是配合去年年底的整個規劃可是我們看起來應該是規劃完才會有後面的動作嘛"},{"start":332.194,"end":358.791,"text":"包委員您這個上面沒有看到的是我們跟美方的協商過程我知道我知道不過可是這個就很奇怪嘛好了之前是不是可以給我們我們再來溝通一下啦再給我們大家詳細的知道一下有哪些細部的部分好不好就剛剛這個市長說的那這個有一些甚至在那個系統分析跟那個作業需求有一些那個好像順序不一致的部分就好像作業分析系統分析反正在前面了"},{"start":359.995,"end":387.438,"text":"這個是怎麼回事報告委員 我們那個系統分析它核定文號的時間跟它實際的作業的時間並不全然是一致的好 OK那是不是可以再跟我做一些解釋好 OK 沒有問題沒有問題好 那這幾項其實核定的速度都非常非常快幾乎都是一週6月18 6月25跟6月30這個是不是也可以跟我說一下它那個期程上怎麼會七天內就可以全部完成"},{"start":388.839,"end":409.295,"text":"最近廣播很辛苦還要上節目因為我們上節目我也必須要盯著電視來看看看你們說什麼這個有一些金額我想最近都一直在講這個九四九五億一直在講這個金額說我們已經超過3%可是那天在節目上說明的時候好像有特別講到說什麼一千多億是退府會的對不對"},{"start":410.456,"end":427.716,"text":"那好像又有什麼295億採尋的那基本上是不是可以就是說我們現在編制就是剛剛有委員提到一連一編那大概基礎上我們現在有一個1176嘛對不對那基本上是不是可以跟我們說明一下最下面那個1176"},{"start":428.857,"end":456.865,"text":"跟委員報告是這樣子就是說原來過去的那個我們國安部講的國安部預算是指國安部本身的預算那後來因為這個NATO他的這個核心的安全預算的時候他會有包含這個以後會納入專案序列的海巡還有這個退伍費的相關的預算那我們是參照這個北約的標準來做那這樣子的話這個所謂的北約標準"},{"start":457.905,"end":472.99,"text":"就會比我們原來國防部本身編的這個預算還有相關的預算要來得高所以這個現在1176嘛1100加上76那所以基本上剛剛有委員提到那個就是會多年期嘛所以也是你們大概想法上今年就是用1100億左右這樣的概念來編這個計算這個基礎嘛對不對"},{"start":480.493,"end":502.326,"text":"這個1176裡面是基本上有三個項目的預算當時在編這個預算的時候因為包含這次的這個不貴稱戰力這個特別預算都把這個額度先框進去的所以這1176包含了這次的不貴稱戰力第一年就是115年的預算另外還有兩個就是去年通過了經濟部的那個防衛那個韌性的那個預算海巡署編了76億"},{"start":504.928,"end":530.004,"text":"還有我們國防部的部分所以這裡面是有三個特別預算的額度在這裡對 所以我想現在截至目前為止從剛剛很多委員發言其實對這個條例還有很多的疑慮那我想剛剛也做了一些溝通我們取得了一些資料那是不是我們可以再進一步的做一些溝通好不好我想好的溝通是大家那個條例能夠順利通過的一個很重要的基礎好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"167771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a7ba2b6177a036d8ae6927793779d72c5d7f21695b503ffeb4e85fd41815b697d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:08:56 - 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當然我應該提到其實RWA全世界大概現在應該是交易大概300億美元左右剛剛跟委員講的差不多那但相較於比如說虛擬資產3.3兆美元還是比較小那比如說我們我們的穩定幣大概也有3000多億的這樣一個所以RWA在過去呢大概還是在等於說在剛開始"},{"start":166.034,"end":192.915,"text":"這個發展的階段不過大家有看好他的潛力啦齁那其實我們在過去呢其實一直很持續的去針對RWA怎麼樣落地在台灣有非常非常多的討論那我們也最近也都按照我們現在過去的實驗的結果呢逐步在讓他落地的過程當中我想如果有有相關的決議我們會很快跟社會做報告接著請教主委現在的這個"},{"start":194.948,"end":212.42,"text":"詐騙集團的犯罪手法早就不是單純的電話詐騙或者是虛擬貨幣的交易它結合了自建的平台、地下會對、即時通訊還有人頭賬戶形成一整套去中心化"},{"start":213.22,"end":236.36,"text":"那這些平台不需要對外公開也不需要上架到這個交易所更不需要真正的一個區塊鏈技術就可以模擬出虛擬資產的一個流通效果讓資金在帳面上移動但實際上卻透過車手跟地下管道完成交付不只是洗錢啦它涉及的詐騙還有更高風險的一個犯罪"},{"start":238.502,"end":258.615,"text":"未來一旦專法通過 今晚會是否能夠針對這些未許可的影子平台建立更快速的一個行政查緝跟刑事移送機制不是像現在都只被動的來等待民眾的報案能夠更有力道來執行這一些查緝"},{"start":259.335,"end":285.254,"text":"其實我們從過去打炸專法裡面就把VASP納入到我們的這些執行的範圍這是我們專法裡面特別有一條來強化這一塊我們也會有一個執法不過剛剛委員提到就是說自從我們開始採用登記制以後所有這些東西你只要沒有經過許可去做這件事情的時候大家都違法我想過去我們的檢警調其實已經查獲主動查獲非常非常多這樣的案例我想"},{"start":287.016,"end":300.225,"text":"這個是會要透過跨部會來協作啦我們在這方面呢我們會透過立法約束那其他如果你沒有合規的部分除了透過民眾檢舉以外主動偵辦我想這個各部會都已經在做"},{"start":303.623,"end":329.358,"text":"這個我想虛擬資產的一個去中心化跨境特性它已經成為國內詐騙跟洗錢犯罪的最佳的護盾那犯罪集團利用境外平台作為這個資金的中轉站它就是看準的說我們的這個監管權力難以跨越國境嘛那根據今天審查的草案我們已經納入了國際合作跟行政處分的框架那面對"},{"start":331.3,"end":351.139,"text":"那些刻意躲在監管寬鬆的地區甚至於說明知是詐騙洗錢仍然提供服務的這些境外平台我想我們不能只有這種柔性的請求那我們應該是要有實質的一個斷根手段的一個做法所以我想說"},{"start":353.441,"end":378.761,"text":"我想要請教主委說願不願意針對刻意服務台灣詐騙與洗錢的這些境外評改他已經是針對刻意在服務這些詐騙集團洗錢集團的一個境外評改那儘管會建議具體的一個法律機制例如譬如說限制他對台灣的一個金流往返要求金融機構或者是支付系統全面阻斷"},{"start":379.682,"end":406.232,"text":"全面阻斷那甚至於強制退出台灣市場的一個強硬措施主委可以這樣子當然任何非法的平台我剛講過以現在的法規它就是違法我們就已經按照中華民國法律就要嚴格查緝但它如果要在境外的部分我還講過我們一部法律能夠有更多的控制節點的話對於像這樣的一個不法行為的掌控就會更高比如說剛剛委員提到"},{"start":406.932,"end":434.008,"text":"假設我們已經有很明確的黑名單 灰名單這部分就我們受管轄的這些虛擬資產或是金融業者那我們就可以建立相當的防控機制這些都是未來我們必須要強化來努力的部分就是說我們在這部專法已經設計更多的掌控點那這未來當然是對這個東西的保護當然會更周延這也是我們立法很重要的目的"},{"start":435.148,"end":464.127,"text":"好了 我再請教主委就是未來專法的落實就是說強制要求所有與台灣有業務往來的平台這些境外平台必須要全面落實我們一個轉帳規則如果說在法律上不願意提供清楚的交易身份資料我們就直接視為說是一個非法營運由金管會這邊來採取斷絕金流或者是撤銷許可的一些強硬行政措施"},{"start":465.134,"end":481.289,"text":"我是要求金管會一定要強硬對 當然就我剛才講說違法的事情這一定就是沒有什麼沒有什麼這個空間啦剛才委員提到假設他境外假設他今天是一個有疑的我們假設境內的這些VASP或金融機構要跟他做往來的時候"},{"start":481.809,"end":497.034,"text":"他已經被列入黑名單或是甚至可疑的灰名單這時候我們就可以對國內這些業者進行管理對不對他就不可以跟他做往來這其實上就像我們現在規定我們現在金融業不可以跟沒有跟我們合規的交易所進行往來是一樣的"},{"start":498.314,"end":518.644,"text":"所以請主委一定要在這個保護被害人這個辛苦血汗錢不被詐騙那打擊犯罪的這些惡意犯罪這個洗錢集團的這樣子的一個信念那我們一定要用強硬的手段來做後續這些事情是當然是好的謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"167775","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167775","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a111a358060ef04443e8ac6646e11c8ecd7f21695b503ffeb4cd5d9dcafc62b725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"11:29:20 - 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民眾黨的第四條都在講這七大項 幾大項那這一些內容行政院版本就寫的是一個比較系統性的名稱國民黨版就部分它寫的是比較項目的名稱就出現了民眾黨版把裡面的金額都具體換算成台幣"},{"start":258.928,"end":272.962,"text":"部長在立法上這三種寫法國防部的寫法到底這樣寫對你們來說有什麼好處或者是彈性跟國人說明一下"},{"start":273.784,"end":293.696,"text":"我想先說明兩點,第一點是國民黨它在第五條裡面,它所列的這個項目我之前已經講過了有一些我們,它雖然智慧國會,可是並不是擺在我們的特別預算裡面沒錯,跟你們原來的第四條的部分是有些不一樣的嘛對對對,那麼它現在主要是講說它"},{"start":295.727,"end":322.643,"text":"將智慧國會的項目列進去但是還沒有智慧國會的部分就沒有列了解那我想這個部分會剛剛已經講了美方應該是沒辦法接受了解這是第一個第二個民眾黨團提的他將所有的那些這個項目跟那個金額都寫上去這個是跟條例還有將預算整個是"},{"start":323.897,"end":344.934,"text":"是混在一起了條例應該是能立預算案的部分呢我們還要等到後續我們預算案提出來那預算案還有可能跟美方在預約的過程當中最後會產生變動那麼變動的話我們就要修這個預算相關的這些書表如果把它列到條例裡面的話"},{"start":347.699,"end":373.79,"text":"隨便一個字一個項目一個金額的變動那我們要送到大院來再來審議然後再來修改然後才能夠去變更這個預算書表我想這個是沒辦法執行的啦最後一個請教一下這個執行的這個條例的期限期間行政院版現在訂的是八年那"},{"start":375.424,"end":396.016,"text":"拉到八年對這個案子來說部長可不可以再跟大家講一下為什麼要拉這樣的一個時間我們相關的這樣子的一個能力的建構不管是軍購案商購案或者是委制案我們都會有一定的一個期程那這些期程呢"},{"start":397.324,"end":422.337,"text":"我們也要考慮到這一個相關的財政紀律跟相關的公共債務法相關的給我們的一些限制那當然我們會跳脫說有關這個年度預算給我們的一些束縛但是我們還是會遵照財政紀律法跟這一個公共債務法有一些總量的一個管制那最重要就是說不管是軍購案、商購案或者是這個委戰它都有交易的趨勢所以軍購案會有一個"},{"start":423.376,"end":432.986,"text":"交運的期程那如果沒辦法在這個期間內完成這個交運將這個條例限縮在很短的時間內那幾乎這個預算這個案項就沒有辦法來執行交運這個"},{"start":439.692,"end":465.103,"text":"比如說海馬仕的82套那同樣無人機的部分我們也希望能夠符合迭代創新所以我們會有一個迭代創新的一個長年期的規劃然後來達到一個預算規模然後來增加國內的產線的能量讓這個整個國防制度能夠提升那這個都是有一個完整的一個配套所以這個8年這個數字也是跟美方討論過的數字"},{"start":467.055,"end":489.233,"text":"我們就美方討論的部分是軍購案的這個部分那麼其他的部分我們當然也會隨時跟美方保持溝通你總是要問他多久做得出來嘛多久怎麼當時做得出來你們去顧問這一個8年交易的期程都有從剛剛講的開始LR和平衡跟LR這個"},{"start":491.124,"end":497.12,"text":"LOA等等這個相關的這個階段就推估出來了我們都有跟他們做綿密的溝通OK 好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167774","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167774","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a96c8517b826fd8063e8ac6646e11c8ecd7f21695b503ffeb5fafcff08c5e5b495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"11:20:27 - 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我現在啟程我想請鍾科燕你來回答這個啟程因為這個是屬於我們海軍艦隊的部分媒體都有報導快起裝岸嘛快起裝岸"},{"start":398.152,"end":418.673,"text":"那既然有這樣的困境,那剛剛我也講了本席非常之死嘛本席非常之死,那另外就是他的起審到底是8年還是6年還是5年你來回答就好了,好不好跟委員好,海軍參謀長報告,那整個這個案子從116到122"},{"start":423.291,"end":427.315,"text":"116年到122年那我們會分大概16到17然後18到19跟120到121我們會做三個階段來做那122年結案122年結案是的 是因為我們要考慮到整個"},{"start":443.328,"end":468.841,"text":"科技的一個發展然後我們要進行一個迭代的創新所以就無人艇的這個部分我們也會採國內公開招標的方式來進行那相關海軍事實上已經做過一次這個公開商情的一個說明但詳細的這些期程跟預算還是要等大院條例通過以後我們再送預算案進來才可以做最後的確定媒體有報導這個專案就是這個快寫的專案"},{"start":472.97,"end":502.413,"text":"那為什麼一定要到8年才完成中科院的這個快起裝案是中科院現在的一個科研案並不是跟我們特別預算的這一個五連停的沒有這個已經是在公務預算裡面都有編了嘛公務預算對我們不是現在在這個草案裡面我現在問的是快起裝案快起裝案現在還沒有納入我們的特別預算或者是這一個公務預算裡面它現在還是一個科研案"},{"start":504.042,"end":514.758,"text":"現在是科研案?是對,好,那幾年完成?去年已經完成了OK,好,以上好,謝謝黃仁委員"}]}},{"id":"167763","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167763","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a3bf0de6ff691b2613e8ac6646e11c8ecc20d8b31dcd6c605741abac731c48f905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:34:41 - 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存而指定或者是要求我們採購的不是在我們原規劃內的我們的軍購的一個武器部分那這樣子的話部長你是否會堅持說先繳回國庫再重新送立法審議的一個法制程序"},{"start":200.69,"end":219.599,"text":"報告委員我們結會到那個美方的外匯會回來的兩種時機第一個就是所謂的他案子已經結束了他整個清算之後還有餘款我們叫做外匯的退匯餘款那第二個部分就剛剛布朗有提到的我們不管是在美國FRB銀行的支息我們也是全數都會結繳國庫這兩個款項全數結繳國庫"},{"start":223.621,"end":248.163,"text":"至於剛剛委員提到的是不是美方有另外額外需要我們再去買的那我們會按照我們的建案程序回來做一個評估如果有需要我們會循建案程序完成計畫之後編列預算另外再去做所謂的結會不會從這些餘款裡面做一個所謂的流用 以上報告相關的這些預算都還是要經過大院的同意才有可能"},{"start":249.892,"end":258.023,"text":"對 所以我說我們當然支持就是說要強化我們的國防那支持必要的一個對外的採購對美的採購但是不要說"},{"start":261.366,"end":286.281,"text":"動不動就對監督者來戴帽子來扣上說一個不支持國防預算就是不支持國防但我們現在的問題不是說要不要買而是怎麼買買的有沒有制度有沒有底線如果匯率風險如果匯率風險沒有控管然後解一款都滯留在美國那交貨又一延再延"},{"start":287.729,"end":297.976,"text":"整套這樣的機制就是把所有的風險都留在台灣所以我們支持要強化台灣的國防但是主導權一定要在台灣這合理吧"},{"start":299.483,"end":322.633,"text":"這合理吧我想剛剛已經說過了 經過的相關的程序已經是行之有年那我們放在這個FRB的帳戶的款項都還是我們的算真的支息也是屬於我們的所以在FRB的帳戶嚴格來講不算是我們已經支付的這個款項那我們會先都依照審計的單位的要求我們都會來"},{"start":325.014,"end":338.902,"text":"匯到FRB的帳戶都會受到監管所以我想整個我們這一邊的整個集合的程序也都相當嚴謹那美方他是因為政府對政府所以美方跟他的合約商也要有一個相關嚴謹的集合的程序"},{"start":340.11,"end":367.562,"text":"如果說像賴政府上台這一年多那兩岸高度緊張嘛台海局勢很危急美國政府理當就是要協防台海的安全那應該要依照跟軍方合約如期供應台灣防衛性武器才是保護台灣正確的具體做法但是我們實際上美國卻多次違反了我們的軍購合約延遲當初承諾台灣的武器交貨時間"},{"start":369.271,"end":382.803,"text":"那這種情況面對現在的高度緊張部長除了密切協調這四個字我們還有什麼更強硬的能夠確保這一次軍購案美國未來能夠如期的旅行合約"},{"start":383.909,"end":400.002,"text":"每個軍購案成立之後,我們都會成立專案辦公室,那專案辦公室會有美方跟我們人員一起,我們也會派聯絡過去,那我們會掌握相關的進度,那有任何的這個問題,我們透過專案辦公室會跟美方反映,那我們這邊國防部本身也會向美方反映,"},{"start":400.482,"end":425.592,"text":"然後雙方來透過努力來解決那所以剛剛詹貴士事實上也提到像F16V就因為這樣子我們現在兩班制他們不斷的一個進行加速生產所以現在在產線的部分已經有50連同在市費的部分已經有59家所以這個都是說我們透過跟美方的政府類政府之間的一個協調都能夠獲取一定的這個"},{"start":427.132,"end":453.09,"text":"獲得到一定的,獲自一定的這個改善這樣那這一次的我們的特別預算的軍購是不是也有可能會像F16V這樣的情況發生我們會當然就是希望就是說像我們之前希望能夠發家族授權我們在預算還沒通過之前先行簽署就是希望不要產生延檔那之後又成立中央辦公室那我們會透過跟他們密切協調"},{"start":455.839,"end":460.43,"text":"如果假設又跟F16V一樣的情況發生我們國防部有什麼因應的措施"},{"start":462.033,"end":489.85,"text":"剛剛也已經講了,因為有這些專案辦公室,所以我們會還是對政府催促,不斷的開會催促沒有,他們一定會提出一個相對應的解放,我想美方都不願意看到對我們的教育提升有所延宕因為美方最大的核心利益還是要強化我們台灣自我還原的能力我想這個是台灣關係法以及六項保證裡面都有提到的事項"},{"start":491.545,"end":491.565,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167787","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a9a266c3818ce33a578568ba5efa48cb629cbc3a6108f1e631677080d570f7ede5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:53:45 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顧主委好麻煩邱主委"},{"start":14.431,"end":26.761,"text":"黃議員你好主委你好,現在中國對台灣已經不是單一的手段了現在包括軍人也好、法律也好,有很多認知作戰的方法在這裡我們不用說跟軍人一臉,在我們的軍官背來背去,會給我們撩亂我們的生活"},{"start":42.726,"end":53.415,"text":"在這個過程當中,中國的懲罰會帶動22條說實在的,主委,在這個過程當中,你覺得他們這樣做是不是會認知作戰?是,委員你覺得這對齁?2024年6月21號發布的懲毒22條跨境鎮壓"},{"start":70.322,"end":98.364,"text":"於一方面他有實際的這個恫嚇台灣人民更重要的他就是認知作戰來分化台灣內部 讓你怕怕這個懲徒二十二條只要你不是支持中共的對台統一政策你包括維持現狀的主張你包括支持支持中華民國因為他這個法律非常寬鬆都是一些不確定的概念所以我讓你剛才講"},{"start":100.025,"end":109.189,"text":"這個就是讓你怕今天你站在中華民國的地方的國會議員是要去保障我們中華民國台灣人的權利跟他們的行動不管他是對台灣中不中"},{"start":121.854,"end":132.842,"text":"畢竟他去到中國做生意的當中剛才你也報告,在這兩三年的時候,你的統計有383個在這幾個月前,就已經有37個了,在這個過程裡面"},{"start":143.869,"end":157.636,"text":"黑數非常的多啦,在這兩天,我們是要跟你說的,跟你們通過三八十三個月,跟春天那些,你們要怎麼去關心,去關懷?來,主委,你回答一下是,感謝翁議員關心這件事情,我們跟海基會對"},{"start":165.62,"end":184.004,"text":"這三百十三個人的家屬,我們都有一個聯合關懷小組在家裡,他們的四大人關心,是怎樣沒辦法回來,怎樣去讓大陸開起來,這很多事情,我們都有在做有在做,還是有在做,還有在說"},{"start":191.38,"end":198.878,"text":"我們也要求對岸人要趕快給家屬一個清楚的答覆而且要進行保障他們的私人安全"},{"start":201.963,"end":220.836,"text":"我們也不斷的透過管道要求啦我跟你們講最重要的是國人要有危機風險的意識沒有必要的旅行沒有必要的行程就不要前往這個是最重要每個人都有這種風險你看我們從這個2024年這55間"},{"start":227.04,"end":251.081,"text":"過一年超過4倍,221件到現在每個月多於20件的數字在增加剛才委員說的很好,還有很多黑數沒有跟我們講我們報案的就有這些,那沒有報案的更多所以我跟你說的,我們就是認知的方式來主委,我們是跟你說的,黑數你大學生還要多嗎?"},{"start":254.053,"end":271.58,"text":"同仁有跟我說可能會比我們來報案的數字多三倍我們有評估可能有三倍之多啦黑數我們同仁一般學者的評估也要我們關注我們是要跟你談到的就是說在這個過程當中有的是在那裡做選議有的是在那裡吃頭是但是他的沒有來"},{"start":278.923,"end":284.991,"text":"他也沒辦法說什麼 連沒辦法說也不行啦主委 你知道嗎現在是這個 他們的法律變成這樣沒公開法 連你沒辦法說也不行"},{"start":294.443,"end":319.425,"text":"因為司法就是不透明充滿黑箱所以我們的國人在大陸如果被他因為法律限制人身自由往往得不到好的司法的救濟跟保障對當事人的家屬也是煎熬所以我們最主要呼籲國人如果沒有把握的話不要輕易到中國大陸進行不必要的行程"},{"start":320.706,"end":340.168,"text":"我們也要跟你說,在這個規定當中,我們的好主批是怎樣不愛好啊,給我們做好主批,不管是都要讓我們起伏尤其最近,還有過一個民族團結,有很多外來民,這是逼近情"},{"start":341.189,"end":345.075,"text":"很嚴重的,在這個過程當中,他可以告訴我們,北省不知道要怎麼處理,在這個過程,你自己去選擇,你自己去說,這個未來要怎麼做才是好的"},{"start":359.454,"end":374.922,"text":"這個法在他們兩會提出來的時候,問題是中時最近也有召開研討會,聽取專家的意見,我們也把各種的提醒因為我覺得在這裡做生意也好,在這裡吃頭肉也好,在這裡吃菜也好,我們都要去考慮到"},{"start":380.385,"end":383.028,"text":"他們在那裡的生活,那態度你說的,會風險啦所以說主委,在這個過程當中,你也看到最近台灣人好,外國人好"},{"start":395.382,"end":415.271,"text":"跟花姐台灣加油就不行了咧主委 你會覺得台灣人要跟中華民國 跟台灣做朋友在那個比賽花姐台灣加油 還是自己跟自己的國家加油啊不行咧"},{"start":416.4,"end":424.142,"text":"是 尤其我們現在在大陸很多台商 他們的政策風險越來越高以前他們有很多問題 現在又要擔心他們政治的風險沒有啦 主委 這個過程你說的風險啦 也有很多人去高興不知道啦所以我們要所有的單位可以合作的時候 最近發生的事情"},{"start":444.306,"end":458.949,"text":"有時候不公開的喔 有時候很嚴重的喔包括你剛才說那件事的時候 他們的人完全沒有辦法聯絡到他啦到現在啦 跟他啊 人家都聞到說 跟你還不可以報案啦這這樣有好處嗎?沒有好處?"},{"start":458.949,"end":461.05,"text":"社會在你們這個地方 不關他們什麼啦"},{"start":468.251,"end":488.61,"text":"我們就是一定要保護中華民國台灣人這是最重要的我們會跟其他的政府部門一起合作來確保國人的安全在這個過程當中,他們一屆一屆設的法律是要打壓中華民國的法律改變"},{"start":490.191,"end":497.436,"text":"所以在這個過程中央有說現在高雷什麼人去交代做生意 不能去那因為有的已經到處擠在那 沒在那做也沒辦法所以你要怎麼去補貨 那是最重要的是我們的發表 我們的努力 感謝委員"}]}},{"id":"167777","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167777","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a76af8acc87b180d5e6927793779d72c5d7f21695b503ffebaf1408e11982b4235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:40:01 - 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主委 給你再說明一下因為這也是外界大家都看的就是說不要說只是放了然後到最後行政院就卡著那到底是哪一個部會在卡沒有沒有 其實跟委員報告啦就是說實際上我們6月27號送進去接下來就是行政院就非常非常密集的審查中間經過兩位政務委員協調各個部會因為這是一個在台灣現在主要有問題的是在哪一個部會現在沒有問題了 現在我剛才講過"},{"start":97.173,"end":115.306,"text":"行政院已經完成所有的審查程序現在就是要報行政院會通過這個程序就會送進大院來所以這個會期就可以出來囉我沒辦法代行政院回答不過我接收到的程序跟訊息應該會在很快的時間就會送過來每個禮拜四都開行政院會嘛"},{"start":115.666,"end":143.983,"text":"所以本席也才納悶的地方是說為什麼連今天我們的召委要排審這相關法令其實照理講院版如果說可以出來的話其實下委就可以來主條啊不是嗎正常我也希望說院版來一起討論啊但是就是說大家可能有其他的比如說希望這個所以外界都在看因為我剛剛有聽到一個我比較訝異的地方是講是說你回答其中委員是講說還不確定時間所以我只是想要確認這個會期我們能不能有實質的討論"},{"start":144.864,"end":169.631,"text":"因為我是金管會我沒辦法幫行政院回答他但是你是主管機關所以你應該是已經了解我不是在套你話我只是說了解你如果說該溝通要溝通要積極push嘛現在全部都已經溝通完畢沒有問題純粹行政程序而已了所以行政程序那這樣子本期就認為是說你應該是可以最快的速度禮拜四說不定行政院會就可以來排案了嗎我們希望說能夠盡快的排"},{"start":170.351,"end":193.478,"text":"為什麼我們會認為說這個東西那麼重要其實最主要在於是過去到現在我們都還是看到我們譬如說虛擬資產貨幣有廣告行銷的一個部分跨境業者的一個納管穩定貨幣的發行或者是退場機制等等問題都還是需要用專法來去做一個釐清所以不要讓這個市場長期在灰色地帶裡面操作嘛我就講啊"},{"start":194.278,"end":212.492,"text":"我其實很納悶就是說我們看那個新聞啊有什麼藝人 什麼大戶一次被賠掉了幾億幾億元我們心裡想就是說這個東西現在在台灣是怎樣人人都可以買得到了是不是當然現在來講 如果說你只問你自己有沒有投資啊我沒有投資是"},{"start":214.686,"end":230.364,"text":"我現在沒有投資所以我說那現在是人人都會買因為其實你看到新聞或是相關畫面其實很多人大家都在討論這個虛擬貨幣因為以前我在學校的時候我有指導學生去研究過這個東西我知道怎麼購買當然知道怎麼運作"},{"start":232.925,"end":251.895,"text":"所以現在確實如果你要買的話我們是可以買 我們有交易所我們現在有合規的交易所在所以你可以透過這個方式去購買是 所以我還是再釐清一下就是說在這一個專法的一個部分因為我看到是說有我們幾位委員版本那我們真的期待是說院版能夠進出或出來"},{"start":252.295,"end":272.671,"text":"其實我也期待其實大家的方向都很一致啦只是針對一些技術上的問題因為我們在提出這個草案的時候已經跟我們各個相關團體已經開過20場以上的公聽會其實大家共識度其實蠻高我也期待說假設未來我們院版出來以後還有各個委員一些版本讓他修得更好其實我們今天審查兩個版本其實很多的"},{"start":274.052,"end":294.794,"text":"內容其實都很好只是說立法技術上比如說這其實應該要放在執法規範比較有彈性就不用放在母法大家只是這個差別而已就大家其實都有共識度蠻高希望這個東西趕快能夠落地因為接下來一個重頭戲就是我們的執法趕快把它定好以後我們希望台灣能夠真的進入到完備的法治化這個大概是我們的目的啦"},{"start":295.675,"end":301.289,"text":"是 本席跟我們財政委會委員一起共同來督促也希望說儘管會能夠加快腳步 對對好不好 沒問題感謝 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早安 辛苦了真的很不容易 我們國防特別條例在程序委員會被攬擺前前後後擋了九次今天終於在陳冠廷召委的這個安排之下在我們國防外交委員會來進行這個審查"},{"start":31.892,"end":55.977,"text":"那除了這個院版國中兩黨其實也提出了自己的版本可是我們單單從他們的這個條例的這個名稱來看其實呢跟這個行政院的國防特別條例呢其實有很嚴重的這個認知的落差那院版的這個法案名稱是強化防衛任性及不對稱戰略計劃採購特別條例"},{"start":58.617,"end":77.062,"text":"草案最主要的內容是要建構多重的這個防衛系統那國防部呢今天的這個報告呢其實講得非常的清楚那絕對不是只有對美軍購可是我們看看國民黨的版本他的這個法案的名稱是強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案很明顯的他這個呢他的條例呢"},{"start":84.204,"end":109.636,"text":"只有對美軍購而且呢只列美方智慧國會的這個項目那剛剛呢林楚英委員剛剛也講得很清楚不單單民眾黨呢把這個我們想要購買的這個項目啦或者是數目啦或者是金額把它這個放到這個法律條文裡面其實國民黨的"},{"start":111.357,"end":133.967,"text":"版本也是一樣他把這個項目金額是列在立法說明那我想跟國眾兩黨特別要強調的是國防特別條例它是法律案不是預算案它是法律案不是預算案所以我們現在這種"},{"start":137.129,"end":154.778,"text":"國眾兩黨的荒腔走板的這個版本說實在的我想真的是讓大家是非常的這個搖頭那剛剛林楚映委員也提到了把這個項目這個寫死了把金額寫死了會造成怎麼樣的一個結果國防部剛剛"},{"start":156.919,"end":181.725,"text":"已經有說明清楚了也許我們會遇到匯率變動的問題也許我們所買的武器有升級的問題可能會跟裡面的內容跟原來的內容會不相符合所以我是覺得國中兩黨雖然說有提出自己的版本可是我們再怎麼看也就是用變相的方式來卡特別條例因為"},{"start":182.745,"end":188.109,"text":"我們部長剛剛也提了我們國防部也提了如果按照國中兩種的這種方式來通過的話真的是很難執行我在想這個部分真的是很需要做功課"},{"start":198.035,"end":213.555,"text":"那剛剛呢我們陳永康委員他有特別提到就是說哎呀你們不能全部都是按照發價說來呀還有應該怎麼樣怎麼樣可是我們聽完之後在底下就覺得很好笑了國民黨的版本第五條"},{"start":215.237,"end":230.605,"text":"第一項然後一到八款全部都是按照這個發價書來嘛民眾黨的第四條第一項一到六款全部都是按照發價書來嘛所以居然"},{"start":231.405,"end":257.897,"text":"國民黨本身就已經有一個這方面的專業可是看起來這個版本是不專業的人士所建造所建設的所以這個部分呢我是真的覺得非常的遺憾因為禮拜三禮拜四我們就要進入逐條選查像這樣子的版本我們只要不曉得要怎麼來做因為我們一定要有國防特別條例先要有法律案後面才會有國防特別"},{"start":259.197,"end":273.289,"text":"預算的這個條例出來後面才是要選這個預算所以我們在想他們這種這種方式到底要怎麼來怎麼來進行那再來因為前面這部分呢前面委員都已經有提出來"},{"start":273.929,"end":290.629,"text":"國防部也提出了一些至愛難行的這個看法可是再來我還是要提到這個整個結構的這個條例到底有沒有違憲因為部長您是法律人根據大法官曾經在釋字第391號解釋中指出"},{"start":291.209,"end":305.822,"text":"法律案無論關係院或立法委員皆有提案權可是預算案只許行政院提出另外憲法第70條規定立法院對行政院所提預算不得為增加支出之提議所以我想請問像這種版本到底有沒有違憲"},{"start":311.006,"end":330.325,"text":"這次國中兩黨各自都提出民生不同內容跟政院版本差異很大的這個特別所謂的特別條例還是特別預算都已經在混淆當中了他們有點耍耍搞不清楚法律案跟預算案的不同那像這個的話就是由立法部門主導支出是不是有違反憲法請問部長"},{"start":333.227,"end":343.573,"text":"我想來五分幾點跟委員報告第一點就是剛剛其實陳永康委員在秀出那個整個作業的程序事實上已經提出來就是說我們是"},{"start":344.79,"end":365.979,"text":"不是會等到發價書來了以後才有可能去進行所謂的特別條例的通過然後再進行預算的審查我想這一個第一個要先澄清就是說陳永康委員市長已經整個指出整個軍購的一個程序的部分等到發價書草案過來才要進行特別條例我想這個這個是不對"},{"start":366.799,"end":394.651,"text":"這個是沒有辦法讓整個建案程序能夠來做這是第一點第二點就是說有關這個一照2500億因為有一直在提到所謂的空白授權的問題那事實上剛剛委員也提出來就是說條例通過之後條例通過之後我們還要在預算案要提出來那預算案每一個預算案大會審這個大院就是委員會審查大院審查如果不同意這一個預算案的話"},{"start":396.011,"end":422.74,"text":"這個預算就會被拿掉所以他是要等到條例通過以後才會有預算案的問題是的第三個就是說按照預算法的83條的規定行政院是可以在年度總預算外提出特別預算所以事實上在這個預算法的83條已經有相關的規定是行政院可以提出特別預算法立法院不行嘛對不對他在預算法的83條明確的表明是行政院"},{"start":423.854,"end":441.685,"text":"只有行政院可以提出所以整個這個結構明天禮拜三禮拜四我們要審的部分喔你看它這個尤其是民眾黨的版本更是把這個法律案呢把它預算案化像這種版本其實本來就是違憲的嘛我們如何審呢我們當然並不希望說有所謂因為"},{"start":449.827,"end":466.293,"text":"特別預算的部分因為這個條例本身就是要為了要特別預算所以當然會有涉及到說法律案本身是就為了要提出特別預算那這樣的話我剛剛已經提出來了就預算法的83條是行政院"},{"start":469.696,"end":477.824,"text":"各位同仁 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廖青祥委員一人列席官員 內政部部長 劉世芳暨相關人員法務部參事 謝志明交通部公共運輸及監理司檢任暨政 王濟州國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長 花敬群主席 李昭吉委員博弈報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定 確定二 邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況含上會期臨時提案辦理情形並備質詢報告事項及討論事項合併詢答"},{"start":1593.557,"end":1609.036,"text":"內政部部長劉世芳報告委員蘇巧慧等13人質詢由內政部部長劉世芳暨相關人員答覆說明委員李曾秀發言時行政官員均不被詢決定登記發言委員處不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束"},{"start":1610.197,"end":1629.684,"text":"二、委員王美惠、廖先祥、高金素梅、羅志強、邱志偉所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報主席宣告委員會尊重韓國瑜院長的協商結論李真秀女士可以上台發言但法治國家的法律不能用協商所以我們也尊重行政院行政院官員可以不必回答也不必提供資料"},{"start":1630.444,"end":1659.593,"text":"二 書面質詢暨未及答覆部分 請相關機關除了李珍秀女士以外於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會討論事項 審查委員林俊憲等二十三人擬據市區道路條例第二十三條條文修正常案案決議討論事項所列議案 令定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢好 請問各位委員 上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏您議議是要 你要提出書面還是要你要提書面還是做什麼"},{"start":1660.868,"end":1675.216,"text":"好,請說明,那時間三分鐘違憲好不好?針對會議新聞嗎?沒關係,如果你們要發言的話,等一下看是...那個李委員發言完之後,如果說現場有異議的話,再請大家發言,謝謝"},{"start":1681.684,"end":1700.352,"text":"好 謝謝我今天非常憤怒也必須非常嚴正的指出115年3月16日內政委員會的議事爭議是民進黨公然踐踏國會制度踐踏中華民國的民主法制主席 各位同仁今天民進黨公然閹割立法委員職權"},{"start":1704.013,"end":1728.321,"text":"立法委員依法行使執行權行政官員得上台備詢這是立法院最基本最核心的憲政職權但民進黨劉世芳的弟子李柏毅直接宣布官員可以不用上台不用回答不用提供資料請問這算什麼會議這還是立法院嗎或者已經變成民進黨的記者會現場本席依法就任重擔監督"},{"start":1729.441,"end":1756.744,"text":"結果整個國會監督機制被直接閹割更荒謬的是這場會議中輪值的民進黨召委為了討好賴政府刻意稱本席為李貞秀女士民進黨上上下下只會搞一些無恥沒品的小把戲民生議題不用過了嗎國家大事不用做了嗎韓國瑜院長在3月11號的政黨協商講得非常清楚以宣誓就職的委員其職權應與尊重但"},{"start":1758.385,"end":1784.841,"text":"民進黨直接無視推翻踐踏院會結論就問一般民眾可以站在這邊提案投票修法嗎那政府不要再掩耳盜鈴自欺欺人了請正視本席合法的立法委員身份儘早終止你們這場知法枉法的鬧劇民進黨暴力踐踏法治壓制異議封殺監督今天"},{"start":1785.521,"end":1808.392,"text":"不只是針對李珍秀 更是想對所有新住民發出訊號你們在國會的聲音可以被否定 可以被消失你們只配當二等公民嗎 該有的備詢沒有 該有的程序不存在如果這樣的會議還可以算數 那未來每一個交委是不是都可以選擇性的不讓官員回答 沒收委員 質詢權利"},{"start":1810.533,"end":1830.771,"text":"輪值交委違法操作議事架空立法院貪歡監督機制該次會議已經明確違反議事規則違反立法院職權行使法違反委員會組織法本席要嚴正譴責民進黨踐踏過會破壞權力分立原則妄想行政權駕臨"},{"start":1832.492,"end":1852.803,"text":"凌駕立法權把新住民當成政治鬥爭工具這樣的國會我們不能接受這樣的民主我們不能沉默3月16日人類證委員會會議程序重大違法委員權利遭受嚴重侵害議事記錄已失其正當性合法性因此本席正式提出該會議議事錄不應該被確認謝謝"},{"start":1859.278,"end":1860.999,"text":"首先我們現在是在確定議事錄不是任何講自己政見講自己理由的一個時間議事錄有沒有確務"},{"start":1888.251,"end":1912.319,"text":"上個禮拜李博義召委他所說的每一句話都是在那邊一似乎是沒有錯誤的但如果個別的人有個別的意見你可以去其他的地方你可以開記者會你可以什麼我們都尊重台灣是一個民主法治的一個國家但也要遵守我們立法院所有的規章跟規則"},{"start":1913.539,"end":1936.72,"text":"我們現在是在確定議事錄我要強調的一點是議事錄沒有錯吧我們也有錄音檔也有什麼議事錄是沒有錯的所以我覺得我們還是要尊重內政委員會我們從以前到現在你有不同的意見你可以發表我們都尊重但議事錄確實就是在那邊是沒有錯誤的"},{"start":1938.181,"end":1967.541,"text":"我覺得不管你是誰都要尊重立法院也要尊重我們內政委員會我們內政委員會從以前到現在我們就是理性討論的一個委員會而不是在這邊如果你自己有不同的意見你自己就要挑戰所有的我覺得不對這裡是台灣台灣就是民主法治的一個國家意思路是沒有錯誤的那我們就是要確定意思路"},{"start":1968.621,"end":1996.216,"text":"就這麼簡單好謝謝張宏祿委員那因為現場的委員對議事錄這件事情是有歧義的那我們就先暫不處理好不好我們之後再如果說我們先私下溝通一下大家溝通一下暫不處理我們先進行後面的議程不曉得大家可以嗎好我們就先議事錄先暫不確認好不好好謝謝大家"},{"start":1997.025,"end":2021.475,"text":"那現在繼續進行本日議程請宣讀報告事項二 邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況並備質詢討論事項一 審查台北市政府未對繼承道路處理條例草案提出建議請願文書案二 審查台北縣政府未對台北市政府所提繼承道路處理條例草案表示"},{"start":2022.135,"end":2043.449,"text":"意見表示贊同請願文書案三審查中軍圈建請將繼承道路處理條例草案緊述進行二三讀會以為憲法保障人民財產權之威嚴請願文書案四審查太平市新平公園新平生活公園都市社區都市更新會為陳情市以九二一震災重建暫行條例"},{"start":2044.449,"end":2066.284,"text":"第72條第三項增列免繳執行規定可否溯及既往請願文書案5審查呂君君為其向本院請願之全部資料請全部自行燒毀不必退回請願文書案6審查台南市政府為推動維護歷史街區風貌簡稱都市老舊及危險建築物加速重建獎勵條例草案之修正建議"},{"start":2067.345,"end":2082.304,"text":"請納工審議時參酌請願文書案7審查中華民國輪傳商業同業工會全國聯合會為建議修正海洋污染防治法規定請願文書案8審查黃春春軍委請緊速通過委員張玉梅等擬拒跟第375減租條例"},{"start":2083.547,"end":2106.846,"text":"第十九條及第三十一條條文之請願文書案 九審查魏圈圈均為建請修正詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第四十三條以強化重大詐欺犯罪嚇阻與社會防衛機制請願文書案 宣讀完畢好 那現在開始介紹這個在場委員及列席官員 那首先我們介紹李博義召委"},{"start":2109.517,"end":2132.206,"text":"好,那就依照這個議事人員給我的順序,不好意思,那就接下來李貞秀委員高金素美委員張志倫委員丁薛忠委員王宏威委員張宏祿委員王美惠委員黃潔委員吳祁銘委員"},{"start":2136.844,"end":2163.506,"text":"蘇小慧委員,我們介紹就先以本委員會為主,那外委的抱歉我們就跟大家揮揮手就好好那接下來我們介紹這個列席官員,那在介紹列席官員之前我們先歡迎我們的立法院前院長蘇嘉全先生先歡迎他回來回娘家,謝謝那現在開始介紹我們列席官員大陸委員會主任委員邱水正綜合國安處處長陳淑媚"},{"start":2166.414,"end":2194.223,"text":"文教處處長張璋經濟處處長李碧仁法政處處長周明瑞港澳盲章處處長盧長水聯絡處處長朱祐儀秘書處主任許君如人事室主任謝艾倫主機室主任謝淑媒政務室主任卓明偉"},{"start":2196.096,"end":2216.16,"text":"資訊室主任陳盈哲接下來介紹我們財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長蘇嘉群董事長副董事長兼秘書長羅文嘉主任秘書兼秘書處處長彭顯鈞文教處處長陳思豪經報處處長劉仁宏法律處代理處長林南勛綜合處處長劉慧玲"},{"start":2226.089,"end":2250.325,"text":"人事室會計室主任林雅萍內政部地政室專門委員張翠恩國土管理署都市更新建設組科長劉浩寧警政署刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心督察劉拉中"},{"start":2252.145,"end":2273.124,"text":"我們海洋委員會海洋保育署專門委員陳鴻文我們補充介紹我們徐欣義委員有丁雪忠介紹過我們丁雪忠委員有介紹過不好意思接下來我們請大陸委員會邱淳震主任委員進行報告"},{"start":2284.798,"end":2313.601,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早這邊貴委員會的邀請報告本會業務推動的情形在這邊跟大家扼要的口頭報告另外備有詳細的書面報告在敬請指教第一,近期的工作重點是因應中共對台施壓脅迫我們致力於維護國家主權安全"},{"start":2314.938,"end":2338.121,"text":"那麼這幾年來共軍軍機艦仍然持續擾台進行軍演或是海警的所謂的執法巡查操作灰色地帶行動企圖破壞台海現狀中共並借雙邊或多邊的國際產域形塑國際支持其一中原則的假象"},{"start":2339.079,"end":2358.659,"text":"今年對台工作會議以及兩會政府工作報告涉台的內容仍然是反毒、反干涉、觸統、觸融合作為工作重點,軟硬兩手並進,圖謀推進其統一進程面對中共對台複合性的施壓及統戰滲透"},{"start":2361.209,"end":2374.802,"text":"若會堅定捍衛國家主權及臺灣的民主自由的生活方式第二掌握國際及美中經貿情勢的變化密鑄中共兩會經貿政策的影響"},{"start":2377.213,"end":2385.164,"text":"中共今年3月全國兩會工作報告及通過十二五的規劃綱要顯示中國大陸的經濟發展趨緩以穩增長促轉型防風險"},{"start":2393.854,"end":2407.11,"text":"的內循環為主經濟政策跟趨向國家主導科技自立自強已居所有產業的核心戰略反映出中國大陸面臨經濟金融社會發展結構壓力"},{"start":2411.835,"end":2438.06,"text":"台商在大陸經營的風險大增政府基於台灣優先立足台灣佈局全球的經貿戰略我們會持續協助我們台商多元佈局強化競爭力及風險意識以提升台灣經濟安全韌性及主體性三 加強宣討賦入風險提醒國人留意人身安全"},{"start":2439.605,"end":2458.38,"text":"我們國人目前賦入仍然具有高度的風險我們從2024年到今年2月28日為止國人賦入失聯遭留置盤查或移招中共有關部門限制國人的人身自由安全的人數高達313人2024年有55人"},{"start":2465.403,"end":2491.618,"text":"2025年去年增加為4倍達到221人到今年1到2月仍然有37人每一個個案我們都很關切而且還有許多黑數沒有報來給我們所以我們會透過多元管道向國人來宣導提醒國人慎重評估服務的風險留意人身安全"},{"start":2492.498,"end":2511.504,"text":"另外為有效遏止中共藉濫發其身份證給我們國人的統戰滲透的作為我們從今年開始對國家負有高度忠誠義務的軍公教人員實施常態化制度化的查核"},{"start":2512.344,"end":2531.003,"text":"那麼不得再入涉及或領用中共的身份證件以維護兩岸單一身份的制度避免軍公教人員施政因為兩岸雙重的身份導致外界質疑並強化我們民眾對政府的信賴第四"},{"start":2532.044,"end":2550.882,"text":"為落實照顧中國大陸台商子女的教育權利我們持續協助在中國大陸設置大學學測及陰庭考場鼓勵台商子女返台升學來認識台灣的元素相關的研習活動"},{"start":2552.143,"end":2560.2,"text":"以及夏令營、東映營我們都會加強來舉辦另外我們密駐港澳勤事適時應處以維繫港澳住處"},{"start":2563.925,"end":2587.865,"text":"服務的效能中共持續加深對港澳的掌握及融合並在各領域廣設國安紅線進行政治審查限縮自由人權本會會密註觀測港澳的情勢持續進行風險管控以及動態的因應本會也將持續維持港澳住管"},{"start":2588.605,"end":2606.778,"text":"運作及服務以確保民眾權益對外服務不中斷不打烊未來的工作有六個方向第一個我們將持續整體掌握情勢的發展以及中共對台政策的作為維護台海和平"},{"start":2607.884,"end":2619.654,"text":"本會會祕註中國大陸內外部的情勢以及中共對台策略的作為並評估對兩岸關係的可能影響審慎應處維護台海和平穩定的現狀"},{"start":2623.697,"end":2647.792,"text":"第二,我們會強化兩岸經濟風險的管控慎處中共對台經貿施壓及融合威脅中共對台的政策一方面維持了複合性的施壓以及融合雙軌策略中共今年對台的工作會議相關的政策都強調深化兩岸融合發展"},{"start":2648.792,"end":2675.684,"text":"十五規劃將高質量的推進兩岸融合發展意圖透過制度化讓國人融入其生活中共透過補助措施或是給予同等待遇誘拉我企業人才及資金融入其產業供應鏈營造兩岸融合交流的熱絡假象來促成所謂的促融促統的目的"},{"start":2676.724,"end":2704.095,"text":"政府將就兩岸經貿進行必要有序的策略性結構調整來強化兩岸經貿的風險管控第三我們將持續完善安全管理循序漸進的推動兩岸的交流政府一向正向看待兩岸良性交流互動始終秉持對等尊嚴的原則推動兩岸健康有序合於法律規範的交流只要"},{"start":2704.915,"end":2727.767,"text":"如方不再預設政治前提或條件為兩岸互動設置不必要的障礙其實就可以共同構築良性互動的基礎來維護兩岸人民的福祉本會也將配合整體情勢及兩岸關係的變化持續會同相關機關完善兩岸交流事務的管理"},{"start":2728.806,"end":2755.797,"text":"循序漸進來推動兩岸人員的往來經貿互動以及教育文化等各項的交流第四我們將結合跨部會的力量反制中共跨境鎮壓以維護國人的權益中共假借成都的名義持續對我政府官員及民眾進行跨境鎮壓"},{"start":2757.677,"end":2767.457,"text":"未來不排除運用剛通過的民族團結進步促進法將跨境鎮壓的對象再擴大到不支持統一的民眾"},{"start":2768.851,"end":2786.699,"text":"台灣並非中共跨境鎮壓唯一的受害者但是我們了解這種踐踏國際規則毫無文明底線的做法對兩岸的良性互動會帶來嚴重的傷害也讓國際社會對於中共的野心有所警覺"},{"start":2787.859,"end":2801.631,"text":"本會將結合跨部會的力量反制中共跨境鎮壓以維護國人的權益同時作為被中共鎮壓國人最大的護盾不受中共的恫嚇及分化"},{"start":2802.594,"end":2816.061,"text":"五,我們持續協助我們的學生能夠多元面向了解兩岸關係的發展,以及強化對中國大陸的嗜讀教育,來增進兩岸青年認識台灣的多元民主。"},{"start":2820.143,"end":2847.49,"text":"最後第六我們會健全交流規範及安全管理機制持續關懷港澳新住民鑑於今年港澳情勢的變化快速持續我們將檢視港澳相關的法規健全安全管理規範並協助相關主管機關強化涉入之港澳金流人流來台相關管理措施及國安審查"},{"start":2848.752,"end":2869.855,"text":"我們也將持續透過公司協力也結合地方政府的資源來幫助協助移居來台的港澳人士及港澳學生了解居留定居、畢業留台的相關政策措施來協助港澳新住民加速適應及融入台灣社會"},{"start":2870.896,"end":2884.788,"text":"最後要強調台海和平穩定是世界安全繁榮的必要元素台灣的安全與印太的和平息息相關我們要再次呼籲北京當局要放棄"},{"start":2886.209,"end":2909.24,"text":"江華的思維以及負面的作為認真理解我方所釋出的善意與我政府透過不預設前提能夠進行對話溝通化解分歧回應國際社會以及兩岸人民的期待共同維護台海與區域的和平穩定以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2916.534,"end":2944.83,"text":"接下來我們請海峽交流基金會蘇嘉全董事長報告你好召集委員各位在場的委員先進以及立法院的同仁行政院的同仁各位媒體的朋友大家早安大家好"},{"start":2946.618,"end":2961.873,"text":"今天有機會以海基會董事長的身份到內政委員會來報告對我來說特別具有意義因為過去"},{"start":2963.194,"end":2981.329,"text":"我在立法院服務非常久的一段時間這裡對我來說非常的熟悉包括看到的老同事點點滴滴都還在心裡立法院對我來說除了有感動之外"},{"start":2981.989,"end":3004.008,"text":"也是一個非常重要的地方,因為這裡是我的樑架那麼今天以備刑的身份,再一次回到立法院心裡除了感謝之外,也更深刻的感受到這一份責任的重量"},{"start":3005.149,"end":3020.091,"text":"我在海基會任職今天剛好滿兩個月這一段時間主要是將內部我們的團隊做一個整合"},{"start":3021.172,"end":3044.994,"text":"那麼除了這個之外,也跟我們的秘書長、海基會的同仁拜會不少的工商團體跟相關的社團來聽他們的意見跟建議希望在既有的基礎上,不只讓會務運作更加的穩定"},{"start":3046.295,"end":3073.687,"text":"也更能推進台灣社會的實際的需求那麼海基位在兩岸事務上主要就是扮演一個穩定溝通務實服務的角色一方面我們要把政府政策執行好另外一方面也要回應兩岸民間交流的實際需求"},{"start":3074.787,"end":3094.962,"text":"在當前的情勢下,我們會用審慎穩健的方式來推動相關的工作讓制度可以持續運作,也讓交流能夠穩健、健康、有序的進行"},{"start":3098.475,"end":3120.349,"text":"會帶領團隊善盡職責把該做的事情做好那麼今天的業務報告等一下會請羅文嘉秘書長向各位委員做比較完整的說明也誠懇的請各位委員先進多多指教給我們寶貴的意見作為後續改進的參考"},{"start":3124.392,"end":3131.013,"text":"再次感謝我們的主席以及各位委員的關心支持謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":3147.324,"end":3175.731,"text":"還有各位委員大家早安請代表海基會來進行業務報告海基會是民間財團法人組織但是受政府委託來辦理兩岸協商交流服務等相關事項從1991年成立到現在今年剛好第35年這麼長的歷史以來海基會秉持的辦理業務的原則是三項民主"},{"start":3176.701,"end":3190.969,"text":"和平人道民主意思說我們所有的交流是過程是手段但目的是要捍衛台灣的民主制度保護我們既有的民主生活方式"},{"start":3191.849,"end":3215.778,"text":"第二個 和平 海際會透過交流對話各種的可能方式沒有管道我們找管道 沒有辦法我們想辦法希望透過文明對話和平的方式來確保所有的衝突和爭議可以獲得解決第三項是人道 兩岸有不同的政治體制 不同的法律體系"},{"start":3217.037,"end":3235.284,"text":"法律跟實務往往有很大的落差在這過程中海基會希望能夠協助以人道作為最高標準來協助兩岸的人民來處理他們在不同的制度下產生的種種需要服務的事項這個海基會工作的原則"},{"start":3236.204,"end":3256.645,"text":"在這三個原則之下我們去年一整年的工作的項目在書面報告中有詳細的說明在這裡節省大家時間我就不一一重複我把今年過去一年有比較大的變化的部分有調整部分向各位做口頭說明第一個我們特別著重在人身安全"},{"start":3257.826,"end":3283.16,"text":"國人到路不管是工作或是就學或是觀光碰到疑難雜症甚至失蹤失聯甚至因為宗教原因被拘禁拘留的時候海基會在第一線會跟國內的家屬還有政府相關單位還有對岸相關單位用一切方式希望能夠取得資訊協助來瞭解他們狀況因為在去年"},{"start":3284.782,"end":3293.448,"text":"過去兩年有關台灣一貫道道青因為宗教信仰原因被對岸拘留到目前為止一個都沒有回來"},{"start":3294.608,"end":3319.178,"text":"那這些海基會在陸委會以及內政部還有相關都會協助下還有很多的台商團體朋友協助下我們盡其可能協助台灣的國人來化解他們的憂慮和提供他們必要的協助那其他在不管是國人到大陸旅行或是大陸人是來台灣就學念書甚至工作碰到急難的時候"},{"start":3319.898,"end":3336.7,"text":"他們第一個想到的是海基會在今年蒙利過年春節期間有一位大陸人士在臺灣臨時發生激烈意外有生命危險當時雖然是過年春節期間但是海基會同仁人家院內政部和陸委同仁用最快速的時間協助在大陸"},{"start":3338.761,"end":3363.51,"text":"長輩來到臺灣在過年期間能夠來協助探訪那在這方面工作也是我們工作重點那另外有國人到了大陸一旦發生急難也許是生病也許是車禍大陸的醫療無法滿足他需求的時候必須後送回臺灣這時候也是海基會受陸委會委託我們跟紅十字會透過小三通的方式把他們運送到金門"},{"start":3364.19,"end":3386.296,"text":"再用親民配合國防部用醫療專機運送他回台灣那這是我們的工作項目再有一項過去三十幾年有非常多台商到中國大陸經營經商經過三十幾年來的不斷變化有不少台商他目前在中國各省的時候他碰到的問題他無依無靠沒有親戚沒有小孩"},{"start":3387.276,"end":3415.934,"text":"那工作沒有著落可能流落到醫院可能流到街頭那麼透過154個各地的台商協會我們陸續把這些台灣的具有台灣國籍的人民陸續的接送為台灣那接送台灣過程中海基會必須跟各地方政府的社會福利單位來做聯繫安排好如何接制如何安送那另外一項我們特別注重年輕世代的交流"},{"start":3416.875,"end":3438.214,"text":"目前每一年從中國大陸來台灣的交換生一學期的交換生將近有1000名那1000名他們在台灣會停留一個學期那這一個學期他可能在台大政大師大文化不從的大學那海際會會利用他們在台灣求學的時間我們辦理相關活動跟他們座談讓他們認識台灣的美麗跟自由"},{"start":3441.597,"end":3453.126,"text":"過去海際會在這方面去年有一學期如果來1000個我們將近可以高達有50%以上的可以直接跟他們接觸到他們也非常喜歡和熱衷參與海際會所舉辦的各項活動"},{"start":3456.828,"end":3478.682,"text":"這項也向各位做說明除此之外海基會也扮演協助外交部和陸委會有國外相關的團體研究團體或相關的駐外單位想要進一步了解兩岸關係的現況的時候會到海基會做拜訪我們在去年114年度一共接待學生團體有16團有586人次社會團體有17團488人次那另外針對新住民"},{"start":3484.405,"end":3504.327,"text":"還有機會我們每年幾乎每個月會跟在台灣的新住民團體朋友來進行也許是爬山也許吃飯也許坐談也許探訪那這方面從來沒有間斷那另外一部分就是台商各位知道在台商雖然這幾年在中國的數量開始減少"},{"start":3505.248,"end":3529.946,"text":"因為中國經濟下行陸續的他們回到台灣或到其他世界各地但海基會仍然把台商的服務當成重點工作尤其當中國的經濟有問題的時候更需要海基會陸委會和政府來協助台商我們在今年的台商春節參會裡頭我們除了特別到台中舉辦讓這些台商朋友參觀實地了解台灣現在經濟的優勢經濟的機會產業的狀況之外"},{"start":3534.91,"end":3551.048,"text":"我們也搭起了大陸台商跟亞洲台商和世界台商的交流平台讓他們彼此有機會能夠進行聯繫交換意見當中國大陸台商朋友他們想要佈局全球"},{"start":3551.829,"end":3570.417,"text":"的時候他們能夠擁有最好機會找到不管在亞洲或世界任何地方也是有台商經驗的朋友來進行交流那這個工作我們進行兩年來反映的非常好也感謝大院以及社會的支持那我們繼續在進行那其他"},{"start":3571.357,"end":3594.62,"text":"有關大陸台商子女大家知道海基位的夏令營跟東令營一直備受歡迎那東令營在今年的寒假我們舉辦了包括高中營和國中營都很受歡迎那夏令營我們將在今年的夏天繼續舉辦除此之外在過去一年我們新增加了跟四所台商子女學校"},{"start":3595.561,"end":3619.496,"text":"三所台商子女學校來進行這個交流我們直接跟東瓦華東上海台商子女學校利用他們海暑假返台授課的時候跟他們進行座談跟老師進行座談甚至台商子女學校來台灣環島騎車這個環島的時候我們海基院同仁也陪著他們一起參與那以上簡單向各位做報告謝謝"},{"start":3627.385,"end":3644.756,"text":"現在進行詢答委員諮詢前原地做幾點宣告每位委員發言時間本委員會五分鐘必要時的延長兩分鐘非本會委員五分鐘上午十點三十分截止發言登記那本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":3646.24,"end":3660.77,"text":"沒有好那今天有關於海基會的詢答因為海基會原則上是秘書長最熟悉業務那我們今天的詢答原則上由秘書長代為備詢如果有秘書長沒有辦法回答的問題然後再請董事長做作為補充"},{"start":3664.005,"end":3690.872,"text":"好,那因為我們第一位是李貞秀委員,那李貞秀委員以及前三位的委員,包括陳青龍、陳昭芝委員有提出來他們要依據立法院職群行事法第18、20以及21條還有立法院議事規則相關規定採用聯合職群,那就因此由三位委員共同職群,那我們的時間並計等一下等一下是主席,聽書一來"},{"start":3698.117,"end":3711.162,"text":"因為可以一人一人 因為我覺得都是這樣不要說因為我改變政府以來內政所得的事情因為我以前沒有 現在還要六年多 從來沒有聯合諮詢"},{"start":3723.218,"end":3734.782,"text":"因為我也尊重主席,因為有什麼問題,有什麼問題應該是這樣,沒人這樣啦不要為了經過自己的事情來應用到內政,當故意來的後悔,大家互相尊重,以上"},{"start":3745.285,"end":3757.495,"text":"好謝謝喔沒關係不好意思我主席先宣告好那我想因為這個是屬於個別委員的權利那身為召委就是尊重每一個委員要不要請使他的一個權利"},{"start":3767.24,"end":3791.343,"text":"你來內政委員會第一天當初第一次主持會議你就要破壞這個整個我們內政委員會的關係而且我們內政委員會我們那天兩位早尾你們在協商的時候沒有講到這個完全沒有講到這一個可以聯合諮詢的如果你可以聯合諮詢那在那邊調委員的順序在幹嘛這是不對的我覺得"},{"start":3793.756,"end":3815.2,"text":"我覺得這個事情知識體大休息一下休息一下那還沒輪到他發言他現在以內政來講他還沒有在執行台上的委員現在還沒有發言的權利除非是程序問題我覺得一切要照法令來講好不好如果沒有辦法出我們先休息"},{"start":3815.74,"end":3820.085,"text":"我要問錯,就是立法院的職權行使法等下委員,現在還沒有執行時間我們請高金素美委員表達意見"},{"start":3827.829,"end":3846.099,"text":"大家早安我想今天董事長也在這裡我們很久沒有看到前立法院長在這裡我是認為立法院每一位同事都得尊重尤其在委員會裡面的召委的決議剛剛召委已經有說過了"},{"start":3849.04,"end":3870.331,"text":"利用職權行使法的第十八條所有條例都沒有說不可以一起聯合質詢所以我覺得一切的決定我們還是尊重召委那今天這個題目呢如果大家說是守法的話我想我們就守法到底原因是因為我們的立法院院長"},{"start":3871.892,"end":3896.099,"text":"已經同意李貞秀委員他還是屬於我們立法委員所以他應該可以行使他立法委員應該要有的職權這是最起碼的尊重當然上一次博弈召委的決定我們也沒有什麼意見所以有很多官員不能回答我相信這場的蘇董事戰也是我們前"},{"start":3897.199,"end":3923.45,"text":"立法院的院長也在這裡立法院院長其實呢在立法院的宣告等同於已經實行了所以我認為今天是在場的同事們內政委員會的同事們我們盡量把這個氣氛的和諧好然後讓我們的議事能夠順利的進行好嗎我想這是全國人最想聽到也最想看到的謝謝"},{"start":3924.09,"end":3941.784,"text":"我想因為這部分屬於個別委員的權利,那應該不至於侵害到其他委員的一個權利那是個別委員權利的形式那如果說你們堅持希望再做討論的話,我就先休息三分鐘好不好休息來討論一下"},{"start":3951.571,"end":3962.481,"text":"對啊 就是過去也沒有官員可以不接受立委備詢啊現在休息了啦現在休息 現在是休息還沒休息在平安房搞不清楚狀況好不好啊搞不清楚狀況休息都怎樣了"},{"start":3976.196,"end":3977.397,"text":"有啦有啦"},{"start":3992.045,"end":3992.485,"text":"他們都專門賣 亂來亂來的 亂來亂來的"},{"start":4017.059,"end":4024.263,"text":"你欺負你先做就像你欺負我他不是我們推舉出來的"},{"start":4046.335,"end":4066.932,"text":"你不能這樣子,你不要欺負人家你欺負人家,你再後來欺負我是要先講,不可以這樣尊重廟小小,來來來,尊重廟小小,誰覺得我先講?不要啦,這件事過得...他那個是說今天第一天的..."},{"start":4068.092,"end":4081.4,"text":"做廟宇啊對啊沒啦,要看出什麼意味,人家是說以前到現在都這樣對啊,問一下,問一下,會想我啦"},{"start":4088.124,"end":4096.031,"text":"大家不要說 真是說 大家都那樣 優秀的人嘛不這樣 你說一個一個一直說"},{"start":4098.759,"end":4104.503,"text":"對啊 大家嘛 女郎們嘛 都可以有避嫌"},{"start":4124.974,"end":4130.038,"text":"我們問你們可以不回答嗎還是按照原來的方式啊國立"},{"start":4153.648,"end":4156.47,"text":"你約定了,今天是非選舉?不,不,不,今天來的"},{"start":4173.085,"end":4178.547,"text":"市長在那邊錄影,沒完沒了解,請問市長有沒有安慰?"},{"start":4195.95,"end":4208.445,"text":"這樣先後面就是正規制這樣的一個要求沒有違法 因為違法就是有法規"},{"start":4215.993,"end":4221.937,"text":"法定人數不足法定人數不足法定人數不足法定人數不足"},{"start":4252.724,"end":4253.985,"text":"這裏面有個大廈,這裏面有個大廈"},{"start":4269.06,"end":4271.764,"text":"鸡蛋糕"},{"start":4285.117,"end":4299.44,"text":"我們也不能夠讓別的地方我們也不能夠讓別的地方我們也不能夠讓別的地方我們也不能夠讓別的地方我們也不能夠讓別的地方我們也不能夠讓別的地方"},{"start":4310.462,"end":4334.217,"text":"我沒有說不可以啊我沒有說不可以啊我沒有說不可以啊我沒有說不可以啊我沒有說不可以啊我沒有說不可以啊我沒有說不可以啊"},{"start":4342.31,"end":4365.501,"text":"我們沒有任何規定委員會的職權是要採用什麼樣的方式所以我們才問為什麼一定要為了他破例呢我們沒有為了他破例我們沒有為了他破例我們沒有為了他破例我們沒有為了他破例我們沒有為了他破例"},{"start":4367.662,"end":4368.763,"text":"為什麼過去委員會從來沒有這樣的提出"},{"start":4393.939,"end":4402.546,"text":"你們聽到沒?你們聽到沒?你們聽到沒?你們聽到沒?你們聽到沒?"},{"start":4423.603,"end":4441.998,"text":"尊重委員 該不該對這位委員先尊重一下 該不該尊重委員"},{"start":4449.662,"end":4449.862,"text":"哦哦"},{"start":4463.98,"end":4464.2,"text":"蜜糖"},{"start":4483.243,"end":4494.126,"text":"像這樣後面也可以改前前的照片叫別人去支持嘛"},{"start":4513.17,"end":4515.572,"text":"這個合法的,延誤規劃,沒辦法"},{"start":4537.648,"end":4543.973,"text":"真的,這要做什麼你知道,要是要我來延誤我沒有錢怎麼賣羊的"},{"start":4580.754,"end":4588.7,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳"},{"start":4591.182,"end":4593.684,"text":"喂 哎呀 安娜哎哦 哦 哦"},{"start":4622.295,"end":4624.517,"text":"主任 啊 我剛剛忘記了 不好意思"},{"start":4648.348,"end":4653.571,"text":"像這樣,手揮一揮主人,你是不是要靠前面來講宗教?"},{"start":4669.982,"end":4677.011,"text":"我看不太好,可是可能一拜一拜可能會晚一點點,因為現在總統啊"},{"start":4681.794,"end":4684.357,"text":"先跟他講一下沒有宅店,現在只有一間"},{"start":4701.932,"end":4727.751,"text":"因為澳門其實是要進入台灣的大陸 進入台灣前港的澳門而且是在網路上採訪的我們都很適合 因為我們現在在台中的採訪人都很適合我們要在澳門的三星島上 採訪這三星島我進大陸之後 北海道 去國土大陸所以我還在澳門多一次 都接了一遍進澳門就是去大陸 採訪這四星島"},{"start":4734.736,"end":4734.756,"text":"蝦仁"},{"start":4751.181,"end":4754.623,"text":"我尊重我尊重我尊重他們的主權"},{"start":4773.512,"end":4778.275,"text":"護航官員民主支持護航官員民主支持"},{"start":4798.267,"end":4803.213,"text":"不要吵到上禮拜還怎麼都沒有吵到吵到吵到吵到吵到吵到"},{"start":4815.206,"end":4838.463,"text":"護航官員民主支持護航官員民主支持護航官員民主支持護航官員民主支持護航官員民主支持護航官員民主支持護航官員民主支持護航官員民主支持護航官員民主支持"},{"start":4843.707,"end":4847.153,"text":"現在是合法的 其實已經是很合法的"},{"start":4855.998,"end":4869.044,"text":"那這樣就是你幹不完事了你如果不願意,我願意給你換一個男的,你也不願意這樣就算了,就是我那些本人都不願意給我換男的,這樣就沒有辦法了你為什麼不合格?"},{"start":4883.21,"end":4898.078,"text":"好了,我們安慰人們的生活,人們的生活,都沒有其他人的生活,沒有照顧親人的保養和照顧他們的生活,他們的生活,他們的生活,"},{"start":4906.722,"end":4928.52,"text":"人家都五雙春風的過一陣子,那你會不會覺得很容易啊?因為我們年輕的時候,年輕人的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的過程,他們的"},{"start":4929.426,"end":4936.253,"text":"你們在提一些方案跟章偉討論一下你們在提一些方案跟章偉問一問尊重民眾黨論"},{"start":4949.466,"end":4951.346,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":4973.294,"end":4988.011,"text":"哎唷,老闆娘,不要...不要剃頭去斷掉褲子"},{"start":4995.956,"end":5003.36,"text":"我今天11點,要去上那個網站,叫了一堆人,那你現在如果去賺喔,一億太多了,還要賺這麼大錢,還要經常在說,我們也不知道,經常這樣,對啊,那現在出1.5千塊,"},{"start":5024.465,"end":5030.069,"text":"沒有不服啦 只是放餐堆啦 都這樣啦都要這樣抱啊 大家"},{"start":5069.377,"end":5083.882,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5094.419,"end":5102.708,"text":"加油加油加油加油"},{"start":5111.681,"end":5140.589,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5142.279,"end":5168.126,"text":"他有時間,他有時間"},{"start":5173.114,"end":5186.888,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5206.45,"end":5206.71,"text":"這裏有個大廈"},{"start":5219.344,"end":5219.364,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":5230.39,"end":5248.155,"text":"我已經超級累了"},{"start":5256.977,"end":5273.592,"text":"八五六五 八五六五"},{"start":5282.038,"end":5290.12,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5317.415,"end":5335.879,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":5349.156,"end":5373.296,"text":"哇,這間後門,那邊那個,那邊那個,那邊那個,那邊那個,那邊那個,那邊那個,那邊那個,那邊那個"},{"start":5405.948,"end":5406.408,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5425.314,"end":5425.754,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":5462.777,"end":5463.158,"text":"慢慢來,不急"},{"start":5485.279,"end":5500.871,"text":"好,大家不要緊喔好,那我們現在開始繼續尋找,我確認一下這個陳清榮,你們的意見是還是剛剛的意見,依你們的意見想要繼續嗎?好,那我們就現在三位委員共用時間"},{"start":5503.72,"end":5529.517,"text":"時間就15分鐘,那因為只有一位委員,所以是加2好不好那我們就計時器調整完就開始諮詢好,有請主席好如果你時間用我要繼續用,這個技術問題我覺得沒什麼意見主席好好"},{"start":5530.936,"end":5536.103,"text":"主席好,有請陸委會邱主委上台好,那就麻煩邱主任委員"},{"start":5547.798,"end":5576.207,"text":"主席各位委員不論入委會內政部甚至行政院都沒有資格判定立法委員身份行政權若凌駕立法權民主制度必將淡然無存行政院竟然可以決定立法院能不能監督前所未見將憲法賦予立法院的權力踩在腳下嚴重破壞中華民國憲政秩序賴政府毀憲亂政莫恥為慎民進黨口口聲聲說自己是多元"},{"start":5576.627,"end":5581.709,"text":"包容的政黨20年前的民進黨還肯推動族群共榮20年後的民進黨卻帶頭撕裂台灣社會挑起族群對立蔡政府時期陸配昌正就任從來沒有任何問題換成賴政府開始各種羞辱、霸凌專找陸配麻煩"},{"start":5595.074,"end":5618.452,"text":"所有國民都有受到平等對待的權利但現在的行政院卻帶頭藐視國會踐踏民主法治赤裸裸的將弱勢族群當成政治鬥爭的工具我要請問邱主委請你完整的唸出中華民國憲法第四條及憲法徵收條文第十一條謝謝邱主委請回答"},{"start":5625.351,"end":5653.585,"text":"那如果沒有回答,我要時間暫停嗎?好,那麻煩請我們邱主任委員回答有關剛剛李政秀委員所提中澳民國憲法第四條及徵求條文相關的法條麻煩我們邱主任委員回答我在這裡要跟我們廖召集委員報告李政秀女士沒有依法及時放棄中國大陸的戶籍和國籍"},{"start":5654.591,"end":5683.96,"text":"不符合兩案條例的參選資格也沒有照國際法的要求落實對中華民國單一效忠的義務我們要強調只有合法的立委才有憲法的質詢權對於不具備立法資格的立委資格的人行政官員如果回覆他的質詢就是違憲違法的行為政府依法行政不可能執法犯法謝謝詹委"},{"start":5687.182,"end":5698.452,"text":"有關剛剛李貞秀委員所提中華民國憲法第四條的內容以及針對條文相關的問題請我們的邱主任委員能夠說明一下"},{"start":5706.529,"end":5713.595,"text":"請邱主任回答我們李政秀的提出的資訊現在是李政秀的時間請邱主任回答現在我們李政秀的問題有,這剛剛才試過了好不好,才試過了"},{"start":5729.062,"end":5756.329,"text":"我們來回覆廖總召的提問我們政府處理兩岸關係當然是依照中華民國憲法及其徵修條文還有兩岸關係來處理兩岸的事務那對於這個所說中華民國憲法第四條那當然也是我們會遵守中華民國憲法謝謝"},{"start":5762.534,"end":5773.905,"text":"我再次跟你抗議,你的時間還沒有到沒有,我們剛剛才事過了,時間分開,但是還是共同尊重張偉的裁決張偉剛剛才事過了,好不好,謝謝張偉剛剛才事過了,好,謝謝不是你的時間啊這個張偉的問題您可以回答嗎"},{"start":5788.447,"end":5807.838,"text":"就回答陳委員的質詢不管是第四條不管第十一條不管我們中華民國憲法的本文還是徵書條文以及兩岸關係條例都是我們陸委會在處理兩岸事務的基本原則"},{"start":5812.864,"end":5838.3,"text":"沒有,兩岸人民關係條例第一條以及落會組織法第一條規定的是什麼?請主委告訴我請回答請主委回答問題可以再說一次嗎?兩岸人民關係條例第一條以及組織法第一條規定是什麼?請主委告訴我"},{"start":5841.219,"end":5866.923,"text":"請邱主任委員回答有關兩岸人民關係條例的第一條以及組織法第一條的相關規定這邊跟廖昭偉報告我們陸委會是兩岸條例的主管機關這個沒有什麼問題那我們就是依法行政我們就是依法行政"},{"start":5868.477,"end":5887.952,"text":"這是我們的立場今天兩案條例也是在大院三讀通過我想大院三讀通過也是要我們行政部門依法行政我們今天就是依法行政包括今天的正義我們也在依法行政謝謝"},{"start":5891.591,"end":5910.483,"text":"謝謝主席邱主委在上節目的時候說如果同時擁有中國大陸的戶籍就會善失台灣人的身份但是本席從1999年核發台灣身份證與台胞證到現在已經27年戶籍早在27年前就註銷沒有雙重戶籍從來沒有中國護照"},{"start":5913.405,"end":5927.756,"text":"我的身份完全合法合規官方從來沒有撤銷過我的身份本席就是百分之百的台灣人所以我這樣的理解有錯嗎請主委回答"},{"start":5929.878,"end":5936.622,"text":"我從來沒有被中華民國撤銷戶籍過,所以我是合法的中華民國國民"},{"start":5947.549,"end":5975.021,"text":"那請我們的邱主任委員回答有關大陸人士戶籍有沒有註銷,以及在台灣權力相關行使的相關問題因為你不直接回答為什麼不能直接回答我的問題請尊重每一位委員發言的權利,如果說在溝通上面有一些障礙的時候,那我們就讓議事能夠順利繼續進行"},{"start":5982.06,"end":5999.989,"text":"我跟廖召集委員報告我們按照兩岸條例第九條之一在當年2004年3月1號大院三讀通過之後我們建立了所謂兩岸單一戶極致如果"},{"start":6001.055,"end":6018.935,"text":"你是之前沒有及時放棄這個中國大陸戶籍的人那你在六個月內將喪失台灣的戶籍以及戶籍所衍生的所有的權利那個時候2004年"},{"start":6022.741,"end":6040.656,"text":"8月31號之後沒有來補繳的人基本上那麼他可能是喪失這個我們台灣的戶籍以及戶籍相關的權利那我們說到李貞秀女士唯一一份放棄"},{"start":6041.957,"end":6059.815,"text":"中國大陸戶籍的證明是在2025年3月我們也很努力的幫忙找有沒有更前面放棄的我們找遍了移民署相關的資料找遍了海基會相關的資料他只有這一份"},{"start":6060.416,"end":6085.06,"text":"因此我們兩岸條例第21條你必須轉換身份滿十年才有參選的資格就這一項我們還沒有看到提供新的證據謝謝好來我要那個訪博邱主委我還有兩分鐘是嗎剛剛說時間繼續對剛才是過了好不好我的台報證怎麼來的如果照邱主委這樣講我沒有台灣身份的時候我的台報證怎麼來的時間繼續時間繼續OK時間繼續好"},{"start":6090.576,"end":6094.942,"text":"時間進去謝謝主席有請主委還有時間請尊重召委的主席權"},{"start":6110.602,"end":6112.044,"text":"請從記時間我還沒有發言請從記時間好五分鐘重設"},{"start":6128.323,"end":6150.379,"text":"好 邱主委邱委員好邱主委上週我在院會質詢的時候台下一片民進黨立委高喊台灣中國一邊一國那我現在要請教邱主委根據現在的中華民國憲法還有根據您所主管的兩岸人民關係條例請問台灣跟中國現在究竟是兩個地區還是兩個國家請回答"},{"start":6154.322,"end":6174.67,"text":"我們剛也提到了跟陳文仁報告我們是依照中華民國憲法以及徵修條文還有兩岸關係來處理兩岸事務我們認為我們中華民國當然是一個主權獨立的國家我們台灣從來不是中華人民共和國的一部分"},{"start":6175.922,"end":6180.106,"text":"中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬根據這兩個法你認為台灣現在是兩個國家還是兩個地區請你就我的問題回答"},{"start":6190.711,"end":6211.419,"text":"我剛已經說過了,兩岸關係就是兩岸關係我們就是依照中華民國憲法,以兩岸處理兩岸事務我一向主張一邊果,但這是必須透過憲法跟修憲才能達到的這是沒有人可以否認的事實但是主委你竟然我剛也說了,中華民國以中華人民共和國"},{"start":6213.12,"end":6235.419,"text":"是客觀的事實與台海現象包括選舉跟擔任公職我想請教你是什麼哪一部法律授權你這樣一位行政機關來解讀立法院的立法委員的資格跟他的職權請問你依據哪一個法令來解釋立委的資格跟職權你只要回答是依據哪一個法令"},{"start":6236.379,"end":6248.205,"text":"報告陳委員我們處理有關於兩岸人民權利義務的法典就是我們兩岸人民關係的我們是主管機關我們陸委會是兩岸條例的主管機關沒有人造成行政機關可以解釋立法院的資格跟職權主委之前有民進黨立委提案"},{"start":6260.931,"end":6276.062,"text":"台灣跟中華人民共和國這兩個詞放到兩岸人民關係條例並且將憲法當中的在統一國家統一之前這個字也刪掉但是最後他請助理到議事員那邊把這些字用立可敗"},{"start":6277.863,"end":6302.552,"text":"自己撤案了我覺得很可惜啊如果能夠由和總統同一個派系的立委政黨立委來提出落實一邊一國的這個主張這個是別具指標意義那如果只這樣再來提出我非常樂意幫忙連署請問主委你支持兩岸條例中清楚定義台灣跟中華人民共和國嗎請回答"},{"start":6304.804,"end":6320.653,"text":"跟委員報告,我想我們兩岸條例的修正,我想都有很多的社會各界有很多的指教,也有很多的提案那基本上站在主管機關的立場,就是要有共識,要有社會共識,要朝野共識"},{"start":6324.335,"end":6340.614,"text":"主委你剛剛五分鐘前在解釋立法院的資格跟職權的時候你就不需要社會共識我現在只是請教你你支持這樣做法嗎在兩岸關係人民條例把台灣跟中華人民共和國把這兩個詞放進去你支持嗎我只請教你支持嗎"},{"start":6343.275,"end":6363.624,"text":"跟委員報告,我們入委會就是依照現行的兩岸條例來推展兩岸事務主委你沒有回答我的問題但是無論在這個法案是民眾黨或是民進黨來提案,我想都可以提問題是如果他真的通過了,我請教主委行政院會附屬嗎?賴總統會通過嗎?會公佈嗎?"},{"start":6368.631,"end":6385.051,"text":"請執政黨不要說一套做一套喔這個台灣中國一邊一國不是用喊的也不是在議場喊也不是在街上喊你必須要透過修法修憲才能夠進行的實際情況我們任何兩岸條例的修法都一定會透過立法院的程序"},{"start":6385.672,"end":6399.558,"text":"也要結合朝野的共識全民的共識跟意志才會來推動您和沈伯陽立委不斷的提到中華人民共和國的國家情報法認為說中國公民有義務要幫中國收集情資所以也依此來覺得說因為你們不承認他有台灣的國籍所以你們認為他也必須要這樣子做好那你既然要講中華人民共和國的這個法律"},{"start":6412.044,"end":6425.253,"text":"就不要談半套 我來跟您談 請主委看一下這個畫面既然沈伯陽立委跟民進黨還有主委 您都要談中華人民共和國的法律您剛剛接受記者採訪的時候也提到這一點"},{"start":6426.994,"end":6447.676,"text":"那請問中華人民共和國國籍法第九條寫得很清楚定居外國的中國公民取得外國的這個國籍就自動喪失了中國國籍這代表定居在台灣三十多年的並且在民國八十八年一九九九年就取得台灣身份證的李徵秀委員"},{"start":6448.297,"end":6469.929,"text":"他在那一天當下就自動消失了,喪失了中國國籍這麼清楚的事實,內政部跟立委會都看不見嗎?看不懂嗎?依照民進黨立委的邏輯,依照主委您的邏輯,依照民進黨跟本身的邏輯中國的法律是法律,你不能只挑,只選,只講你要講的部分來做詮釋"},{"start":6471.85,"end":6490.113,"text":"主委是謝謝陳委員的指教有關於您剛提到國籍法當然我們國籍法的主管機關是行政院是我們內政部我們內政部在解釋國籍法是把所有國人都一視同仁"},{"start":6490.914,"end":6507.584,"text":"除了中華民國國籍之外,當政公職一定要放棄中華民國以外的國籍不管是一個國家,還是政團,或者是政治的一個團體不管跟我們有沒有邦交關係無關,就是要體現"},{"start":6510.653,"end":6537.263,"text":"單一效忠中華民國的這個立法精神那你剛剛提到那個我們確實如果你沒有放棄沒有努力放棄你極可能會受到中共的國家情報法中共的國家安全法或者是反間諜法他要求你配合中共要這個收集台灣的情報那這個部分當事人會陷入很大的困難"},{"start":6539.223,"end":6560.712,"text":"我們也認為今天不讓李貞秀女士放棄中華人民共和國國籍是中共政府跟台灣政府在主要我請你回答我的問題,你又在重述一個早上的事情請問陸委會是怎麼誕生的?為什麼要有陸委會?"},{"start":6563.427,"end":6572.174,"text":"沒有兩岸人民關係條例哪來的陸委會我們是因為兩岸條例授權由陸委會擔任兩岸條例的主管機關謝謝主委"},{"start":6574.5,"end":6589.688,"text":"好 就是 我要求我這五分鐘 重新計時我重新計時五分鐘好 那我再做這件事這一場好 你不要吵我的 我的進行時間 我的進行時間 時間讓你時間讓你 我的進行時間 我的進行時間來 今天請問 沒有我 完全沒有關係"},{"start":6604.11,"end":6614.174,"text":"就沒有議會會議所以今天議會會會存在,就因為有兩方面的關係條例,是不是?謝謝,謝謝陳委員好,我舉一個例子孫立芳總長根據國安部的一個說明"},{"start":6623.662,"end":6642.808,"text":"他說孫中壯一來務實提出了註銷中國大陸戶籍的證明文件也不用申請規劃最主要他是依據被指台灣地區人民身份及戶籍最後要點第六點的規定他就是說"},{"start":6644.148,"end":6661.975,"text":"七十六年十一月二號一直到現在九十三年三月一號我們修正前意思就是說我們在政府開放大陸地區探取老法才有所謂的住宅戶籍的規定"},{"start":6663.636,"end":6679.552,"text":"那孫中介他是民國七十六年十一月二號出生在中國大陸地區的中華民國國民也已經涉及在台灣地區伊達、烏西亞"},{"start":6681.994,"end":6702.171,"text":"特別提出註銷證明以至其出生時就具有中華民國國旗孫中將七十六年十一月二號我跟主委講我們的李宗憲委員啊年紀比孫中將還大"},{"start":6703.912,"end":6713.241,"text":"他是1973年也就是民國62年出生他的條件跟孫立孫將軍並不一樣"},{"start":6718.919,"end":6744.152,"text":"他76年開始清查孫中興是76年出生的所以很明顯的民進黨現在就是封標在蔡英文時代某個邏輯著作陸配的參選權所以我們的陸配有很多參與著我們地方的里長議員的選舉"},{"start":6746.773,"end":6773.931,"text":"今天孫將軍的審問跟李正修的人一模一樣請問請問為什麼最後有戶籍跟國籍的問題請主任回答謝謝陳委員的指教有關於您提到這個孫將軍他在71年來台的時候為什麼沒有放棄中華人民共和國的國籍問題第一個就是"},{"start":6776.893,"end":6801.194,"text":"李貞秀女士來台灣的時候,我們兩岸條例已經制定實施了那孫將軍來台的時候,那個時候包括兩岸條例國籍法都還沒有所以孫將軍那個時候還在動員勘斷時期我們那個時候視中共為叛亂團體當然沒有意義去放棄人民共和國國籍的問題"},{"start":6805.277,"end":6828.262,"text":"但是李貞秀女士來台灣的時候,我們兩岸條例已經公佈實施了,我們國際法也有修正,所以我們需要兩岸條例實施了,他才會拿到我們中華民國的身分證,中華民國的護照,也因為兩岸條例的實施啊,是不是?"},{"start":6829.002,"end":6836.484,"text":"所以跟委員報告我們李貞秀女士來到台灣在1999年確實有定居不過那個時候那個時候的陸配都有雙重戶籍的身份但是我們在2004年就規定願意戶籍"},{"start":6857.25,"end":6858.951,"text":"所以他不是說我們就能夠在60年拿回來補償所以海基會在這裡海基會在這裡你正確他放棄我們一起的證明包括他們內容已經經過海基會的認證"},{"start":6873.997,"end":6878.66,"text":"但是失效而言它是2025年3月才回來我們在兩案條例第21條必須轉換身份滿10年才能夠有查得認證內容就在1993年就放棄戶籍1993年的時候沒有要求陸培要放棄戶籍也沒有機關會受理"},{"start":6900.891,"end":6915.64,"text":"我們是在二零零四年 三零零四年來到台灣結婚之後就被放棄入侵我剛剛講的就是依法他沒有接受"},{"start":6920.083,"end":6925.968,"text":"立法院保障維護陸培的參政權利陸培的參政權利面對你 陸培的參政權利完全剝奪了除了你政協委員 還有我們的里長 還有我們的議員 現在在外勤者主政局下 在你局下"},{"start":6942.56,"end":6958.524,"text":"保證卸陸配的參政權我們要依然保障保護陸配的參政權利並沒有這回事那這麼多的里長這麼多的地委還有體中協委員你們就是實質的在拖著啊這不是事實我們在這裡是要維護最重要的事實合法鎖法陸配的權益大家都守法我們希望陸委陸配守法"},{"start":6973.223,"end":6992.456,"text":"我們當然是守法,而且我們是依法行政,我們也是依法取得他們參政的權益,所以是依法取得,所以是依法取得。再一次的強調,我們是政協委員,也是依法取得他立法委員的資格。"},{"start":6993.397,"end":7001.781,"text":"我們還是強調依照我們有事強調我們有事強調我們有事強調所以不具備有符合兩岸條例的參選資格也沒有依照國籍法的要求若實在我們有要補充的再麻煩我們陸委會後續補充是謝謝謝謝委員謝謝主席"},{"start":7026.581,"end":7050.443,"text":"好 謝謝喔 那在執行過程中我還是要補充一下請大家盡量尊重發言的委員另外請我們行政立法兩個機關互相尊重那如果說未來再有行政院的同仁稱呼用性別來稱呼我們的委員的話那很抱歉我可能也會用同樣的方式來稱呼我們行政院的官員以上好 那接下來我們請蘇喬惠委員發言"},{"start":7066.691,"end":7092.927,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請邱主委好 請邱主委主委好主委好 主委放心我會基於我的立法委員的身分和我的職責對你進行非常正統的發言和質詢謝謝所以我們現在就來討論一下陸委會到底應該要怎麼樣對最近的中國涉台事件能夠在社群媒體中間能夠加強說明"},{"start":7094.708,"end":7114.487,"text":"因為其實我可以看到來第一頁我們看到其實陸委會的執掌確實就是依照第三條有下面這六項那其實每一項都互相關聯啦所以我特別要強調的話因為比較具體的話應該是跟我要講的內容有相關的應該是第六項大陸政策國會聯繫"},{"start":7116.168,"end":7138.856,"text":"以國內外溝通說明和新聞發布的嚴密規劃協調執行所以我們就來看一下就是這一個月我以三月為例以三月為例的話 立委會在您的臉書上面也就是社群粉絲上面大概討論上面的所以我這樣列出來的應該就是你們社群網路上面關心的發布的訊息 對不對有這個"},{"start":7142.319,"end":7158.237,"text":"假訊息的錯誤的錯誤假訊息的澄清嘛對不對那也有這個省副主委去接受專訪的時候那這樣這幾個主委可不可以特別說明一下可以請您說明一下您立委會大概都就哪一方面的訊息你會進行這個說明"},{"start":7161.501,"end":7174.28,"text":"第一個當然是政府的重要的政策的意涵第二個是中國大陸對於我們進行很多的認知作戰混淆了我們的認知這個我們特別要去澄清說明"},{"start":7176.002,"end":7201.137,"text":"那如果是你第二個認知作戰的部分的話也列在你們的重點項目的話那主委我認為我今天質詢的主題就是我認為你們的範圍應該要更寬一點因為其實這幾年來大家對錯假訊息對認知作戰已經都有了初步的概念好 可是呢其實這種製造錯假訊息的技術是日新月異"},{"start":7201.977,"end":7221.753,"text":"那所以我們可能更要到源頭回去讓大家從認識錯假訊息也就是媒體識讀的這方面甚至要前進到哪一些狀態會變成錯假訊息的來源源頭我今天想跟你分享的一個我今天跟討論的一個是我們在上週"},{"start":7223.475,"end":7235.364,"text":"3月14號的時候台灣民主實驗室發布了一個報告他說英國的這個范德堡大學揭露了中國企業中科天機他有一份399頁的文件整理其中就發現有擬定針對台灣的監控計畫"},{"start":7242.009,"end":7258.461,"text":"這其中包括了170份詳細的政治人物檔案2300萬筆封閉來源的台灣戶籍資料以及數以萬計關於宗教學術與商業精英也就是說都是人的記錄然後還包括了70個政壇11478家公司等等哇 這麼多 甚至是有"},{"start":7265.345,"end":7284.113,"text":"13000個宗教團體還有24000個人民團體所以他直接下結論了這份報告直接下結論說這些資料為中天科技提供了一幅有組織的公民與社會生活的廣泛地圖作為影響台灣的基礎然後他會做什麼然後他又利用AI"},{"start":7284.893,"end":7313.892,"text":"深層精工華語台語的高擬真虛擬人物大規模冒充台灣人意圖對台進行認知滲透與分化主任您知道這個訊息嗎我們非常關注這個資訊立委會有什麼態度表示是跟委員報告我想也不僅是這個大量的使用AI的深層式的一些甚至一些深微的一些短影片或者是用這個機器人的假帳號"},{"start":7314.893,"end":7339.741,"text":"以及入職APP透過這些假訊息排山倒海鋪天蓋地來影響我們民主憲政的正常運作甚至在選舉時間的時候進行竊選這個都是非常嚴重的問題那我們陸委會跟各部會都對於中國大陸這些對台的這個透過網路進行對我們認真作戰我們基本上有四個做法"},{"start":7342.403,"end":7355.098,"text":"第二當然就是要快速的揭露我想如果讓這個錯假訊息在我們的網路世界在我們的數位空間影響我們的認知這是太嚴重了"},{"start":7355.418,"end":7365.607,"text":"主委你還在講嚴重我就直接給你看因為我們有準備那等一下你的幾個原則你的處理原則麻煩你簡要說明來我們看一下以現在這樣的狀況來講的話其實現在的階段本來都還在用一些"},{"start":7371.132,"end":7396.984,"text":"你看到很多的比如說我來舉例的話就是這種養生健康的頻道每天都讓你看這些健康的資訊你以為你在讀一些保養什麼膝關節啦血脂肪啦脂肪啊等等之類的狀況可是呢這些健康的網站左邊這邊本來你訂閱的時候長左邊這樣可能在同一天晚上瞬間啪一個就轉過去全部變成了錯假訊息"},{"start":7400.726,"end":7428.571,"text":"全部變成了台灣面臨對岸風險台灣這個有被美日加聯手封殺台灣的這些金融狀況突然出現危機這就是我們平常在預防這些看起來無害的頻道但瞬間就變成了錯假訊息的傳遞管道嘛好 本來這些就已經夠嚴重了可是現在剛剛說的吸收到個資之後他要做什麼"},{"start":7429.071,"end":7440.302,"text":"其實就是運用AI拿到各自運用AI的模型去訓練新的影片生成所以主委其實我本人就已經遇到這樣的狀況了3月9號的時候"},{"start":7444.526,"end":7461.42,"text":"在野黨的主席 國民黨的主席對我進行了一些批評和攻擊之後當天的下午 同一天的下午我卻已經看到了網路上有影片看起來好像是對我個人做了一些深屏視略的簡介當然其中已經包括很多錯誤的資訊 但"},{"start":7463.041,"end":7484.545,"text":"中間就已經包含了國民黨主席在上午對我的批評已經夾進裡面生成這樣的影片從上午有新聞到下午影片我們查詢到這有多久這才幾個小時而已耶這不是很可怕嗎那我們現在看到這份報告裡面剛剛在說的這份報告裡面其實他對這個AI"},{"start":7488.847,"end":7500.838,"text":"認知作戰的閃電認知戰還有具體的KPI是15分鐘內從即時偵測台灣社群媒體輿論熱點到自動生成新影片引導輿論"},{"start":7502.884,"end":7522.293,"text":"主委我覺得我們的狀況我們面臨的處境實在非常非常的險峻所以我們希望的話是陸委會其實不只是對這樣的錯假訊息要能夠澄清這是第一步你們現在暫時有做到了第二個是像現在這一頁列出來的錯假訊息的管道"},{"start":7522.933,"end":7539.393,"text":"要能夠進行討論要進行公告要進行查封查核等等甚至是到前面我們剛剛說的像有這種天氣資訊在天氣科技這樣的資訊大量的蒐集的時候你要怎麼樣讓大家進一步的了解"},{"start":7540.214,"end":7562.348,"text":"AI生成的微影片是可怕的如何去辨識這種影片我想這已經到了第三階段我們要對錯假訊息有新的認識新的做法主任你同意嗎非常同意我剛剛講除了快速接受立即澄清之外還不夠我們還必須要剛剛委員所說的要快速反映依法下降"},{"start":7562.748,"end":7580.394,"text":"我們現在的法律已經有提出來了我們國家安全國安法相關的條文已經針對有一些錯假訊息或證訊它可能危害國家安全跟社會安定之餘我們透過一個機制讓我們可以快速處理然後依法下架"},{"start":7580.854,"end":7607.26,"text":"避免雖然我們澄清但是它還在持續危害當然我們需要透過國際合作因為很多的跨國公司網路平台公司都是跨國公司不像是Google MetaLine或者是我們中國大陸的APP小紅書或者是新加坡的TikTok抖音這個東西我們當然是窮盡一切透過跨國合作來減少這個"},{"start":7609.481,"end":7627.412,"text":"問題的傳播那另外我們也要強調我們要對我們台灣整體社會進行試讀教育試讀中國大陸試讀網路讓大家看到這個錯假訊息啊他不會馬上被引導減少我們增加我們台灣的社會韌性增加我們台灣的民主防衛機制"},{"start":7628.112,"end":7643.465,"text":"我再提醒一次我覺得這是一個比速度的時代比如說剛剛今天的質詢發生了什麼狀況也許陸委會其實就應該要更清楚的對社會做一個說明陸委會的立場和態度是什麼這是一個比速度的時代謝謝主委好我們現在先篆定"},{"start":7655.652,"end":7677.738,"text":"張宏祿委員發言完休息可以嗎張宏祿要嗎四位張宏祿委員發言完休息那接下來我們請黃婕委員發言好謝謝主席我們請邱主委請邱主委"},{"start":7683.904,"end":7707.422,"text":"好 謝謝在請教主委之前我還是要強調今天的程序其實是合法掩護非法因為我看不懂為什麼就是國民黨跟民眾黨的委員要聯合搞一個這樣子首開先例的委員會聯合質詢那破例讓一位為了要護航一位雙重國籍的中國籍民眾那在這邊開了委員會史上的先例"},{"start":7711.564,"end":7727.511,"text":"不好意思喔時間可以暫停嗎因為我們召委不在那我們是不是等召委回來還是你先喊休息好不好是代理召委請尊重代理召委不好意思喔我們先時間先暫停我們先要代理召委回到座位上我們再進行會議"},{"start":7738.14,"end":7741.121,"text":"我們再繼續進行會議主席要是立法委員的身份"},{"start":7757.137,"end":7767.445,"text":"謝謝 我是代理召委我們請讓安心翔召委回到座位上我們再繼續質詢質詢時間暫停請時間暫停時間暫停代理召委宣布時間繼續代理召委宣布時間不要沒收我質詢的權利時間暫停請時間暫停時間暫停"},{"start":7785.455,"end":7795.119,"text":"時間暫停代理召委時間暫停請廖先生召委繼續召開會議我們的會議再繼續進行沒錯沒錯李博義召委也在現場應該優先請李博義召委"},{"start":7814.621,"end":7829.47,"text":"暫行輪值然後請還給我20秒小動作不要這麼多啦小動作不用這麼多啦時間到了委員問題還沒有問完都會讓您問到結束以上謝謝謝謝我要強調的就是今天的程序完全亂了套"},{"start":7844.718,"end":7860.912,"text":"這個聯合質詢如果搞下去未來是不是我也可以登記完之後讓後面所有我想要一起邀請的委員把所有的時間都暫住那這樣子我們一位一位這麼準時八點來登記的這幾位委員對大家請何以堪呢"},{"start":7861.633,"end":7881.148,"text":"所以我必須說委員會的程序就是這樣大家就是先來後到叫著八點到時間誰先登記誰就先質詢如果這個聯合質詢可以這樣搞好啊那大家以後都不用八點來一個人代表就好其他人就跟他一起聯合質詢不就好了嗎那這樣子我們那麼準時早起來到這邊簽到的這些委員對大家來說是把大家裝效為嘛"},{"start":7885.831,"end":7913.07,"text":"所以必須要講說不需要為了護航一個這個雙重國籍的中國籍民眾那為了要創造一個讓行政官員答詢這樣的假象那今天硬搞這一出這完全就是合法掩護非法那非常非常的難看好 那首先也想要請教我們陸委會邱主委請問我們有成功放棄中國籍的民眾來到台灣落地生根嗎"},{"start":7914.557,"end":7925.342,"text":"因為我必須要講上禮拜其實鍾小平議員還有包括宋亦夫這樣子的評論員在節目上都有提到他們有很多的朋友其實都有成功放棄的經驗"},{"start":7927.335,"end":7946.548,"text":"是,跟黃偉仁報告,放棄中國大陸的戶籍來到台灣來轉換身份來到台灣轉換成我們台灣身份的人非常非常多包括現在絕大部分的陸配都是經過轉換身份來到台灣安居樂業"},{"start":7948.129,"end":7964.348,"text":"那至於您剛剛提到轉換這個國籍那目前是中國大陸的政策不讓他們依照合法的程序來放棄可能會遭到一些困難不過"},{"start":7966.07,"end":7988.534,"text":"因為他的國籍法也有相關的一些程序規定當事人也要依照我們的國籍法在任職前 任公職前應該要表達放棄的意思那中國大陸到底會不會給你申請回這個國籍證明至少有一年時間可以來證明不過我要強調我們中華民國的國籍法"},{"start":7992.515,"end":8016.103,"text":"基本上都在落實對中華民國忠誠義務這個單一忠誠義務是針對所有國人一視同仁我們在國際上也許有很多國家他們也很多不能放棄的像阿根廷 墨西哥像沙烏地阿拉伯 摩洛哥像非常多的像巴拉圭"},{"start":8017.463,"end":8043.231,"text":"玻利維亞這些國家他們都沒有辦法放棄所以他們的國民來到我們台灣就算是來擔任我們這是來到我們台灣成為國民他也一樣沒辦法擔任我們的公職因為沒辦法放棄國籍所以我們是針對所有的人都一視同仁不是針對中國大陸的配偶"},{"start":8045.412,"end":8065.214,"text":"刁難我想不讓中國大陸的配偶放棄國籍是中國大陸的政府造成的並不是台灣政府造成的困擾那我們也強調剛剛也說如果任何人沒有放棄對岸的國籍你根據中共的國家安全法國家情報法及反間諜法"},{"start":8066.235,"end":8092.956,"text":"你就必須配合中共收集情報因此會造成他不是違反中共的法律拒絕收集台灣的情報就是違反台灣的法律 洩漏國家機密即無法落實單一效忠同時也讓當事人陷入兩難這是我們的一些目前的一些法律所以我們跟委員報告我們就是依法行政"},{"start":8093.697,"end":8108.881,"text":"好 謝謝丑所委的說明 在這邊也補充一下其實中國全國人大在3月12號有通過這個民族團結進步促進法那它的內容是什麼呢 除了說要求要增進台人對中華民族的認同還強調說會依法追究破壞民族團結的行為那其實這樣的內容跟您剛剛提到的這個反間諜法 國家情報法 國家安全法"},{"start":8118.604,"end":8145.295,"text":"其實都是相似的而且非常的嚴重也就是說我們在無法確認一位這樣子的公職對台灣有單一效忠的前提之前你對有中國籍你就是要必須遵守這些中國的法律你可能要被迫要收集相關的情報你可能如果你沒有表達促銅的話你可能還要被懲罰所以單一效忠非常非常的重要是嗎"},{"start":8146.144,"end":8174.249,"text":"是 各位委員報告您剛剛提到在這次的中共兩會它有通過民族團結進步促進法那這部法我們很關注我們關注的除了對於中國大陸內部的少數民族會帶來很大的這個鎮壓的效果單一化的效果因為這個法律呢它可以說把民族團結國家統一都把它結合起來"},{"start":8174.969,"end":8190.764,"text":"而且要接受中國共產黨的全面領導而且你有國家統一的義務包括剛剛委員所說的你就是在中華人民共和國境外的個人跟組織也被包含在內"},{"start":8191.965,"end":8210.49,"text":"他在裡面條文也特別針對台灣民眾要增進對中華民族的這個認同感歸屬感榮譽感所以他是有涵蓋但是我要特別強調的他這個在法律上的可能會涉及到未來"},{"start":8212.17,"end":8220.957,"text":"你就算是迫害統一你也要負責法律的這個責任所謂迫害統一像我們懲罰22條原本他應該只是針對有這個台獨作為人來立案調查來懲治但是現在李恩"},{"start":8232.233,"end":8253.958,"text":"破壞統一的人也就是說你就算是維持現狀你不表態你甚至是支持中華民國你只要沒有支持中共的統一政策你可能就是成為他法律制裁的對象是啦我在這邊幫主委白話問一下就是說如果你的人民就算保持沉默可能都會被認為是在促進統一"},{"start":8254.778,"end":8272.649,"text":"也就是你沒有堅決表態兩岸要促同你可能就被他認為是沒有在符合我們的法律你這樣的理解是非常非常誇張你以為我們很多藝人在中國大陸有一些表演他在過特定的節日都要求他表態 俗成"},{"start":8273.65,"end":8297.761,"text":"我們這些藝人啊連不表態的自由都沒有所以未來他立法的就是說你只要破壞統一破壞民族團結就會利用這個法對所以我在這邊是希望主委我們陸委會一定要站穩立場是這個相關的法律剛剛主委也說得非常清楚了所以單一效忠單一國籍非常非常的重要放棄國籍放棄戶籍再來談台灣的參政權謝謝謝謝美恩"},{"start":8308.902,"end":8318.249,"text":"好 接下來我們請王美惠委員發言好麻煩邱主委"},{"start":8326.428,"end":8353.471,"text":"黃議員你好主委你好現在中國對台灣已經不是單一的手段了現在包括軍人也好、法律也好有很多認知作戰的方法在這裡我們不用說跟軍人一臉不在我們的天關背來背去會把我們撩亂我們的生活"},{"start":8354.383,"end":8360.607,"text":"在這個過程當中,中國的創華會帶動22條說實在的,主委,在這個過程當中,你覺得他們這樣做是不是會認知作戰?"},{"start":8376.305,"end":8390.621,"text":"所以 2024年6月21號發布的懲毒22條跨境鎮壓一方面它有實際的這個恫嚇台灣人民更重要的它就是認知作戰來分化台灣內部"},{"start":8393.644,"end":8411.466,"text":"這個審讀22條啊只要你不是支持中共的對台統一政策你包括維持現狀的主張你包括支持支持中華民國因為他這個法律非常寬鬆都是一些不確定的概念所以我想你剛才講這個就是讓你怕"},{"start":8414.663,"end":8421.368,"text":"主委 我想跟你談到的就是說今天你站在中華民國的所在國會上是要去保障我們中華民國台灣人的權利跟他的行動不管他是對台灣中不中畢竟他去到"},{"start":8436.221,"end":8444.684,"text":"中國做生意的當中剛才你也報告在這兩三年的時候你們的統計有383個在這幾個月前就已經有37個了在這個過程裡面"},{"start":8455.868,"end":8471.597,"text":"黑數非常的多啦,在這兩天,我們是要跟你說的,跟你們三八十三個,跟村的那些,你們要怎麼去關心,去關懷,來,主委,你回答一下,是,感謝王議員關心這件事情,我們還機會,對這三八十三個人的家屬,我們有一個"},{"start":8483.244,"end":8496.019,"text":"聯合關懷小組,去找他們的事大人關心,是怎樣沒辦法回來,怎樣去讓大陸開起來這很多事情,我們都有在做有在做可以說,還是有在做還有在說"},{"start":8503.373,"end":8510.871,"text":"我們要求對岸人要趕快給家屬一個清楚的答覆而且要進行保障他們的私人安全"},{"start":8513.8,"end":8532.832,"text":"我們也不斷的透過管道要求啦我跟你們講最重要的是國人要有危機風險的意識沒有必要的旅行沒有必要的行程就不要前往這個是最重要每個人都有這種風險你看我們從這個2024年這55間"},{"start":8539.036,"end":8563.097,"text":"過一年超過四倍221件到現在每個月多於百分之以20件的數字在增加剛才委員說的很好還有很多黑數沒有跟我們講我們報案的就有這些那沒有報案的更多所以我跟你說的我們就是認知的方式來 主委我們是跟你說的黑數你大約才能整個有多少嗎"},{"start":8566.049,"end":8589.037,"text":"同仁有跟我說可能會比我們來報案的多三倍是啦我們有評估可能有三倍之多啦黑數我們同仁一般學者的評估也要我們關注主委我們要跟你談到的就是說在這個過程當中有的是在那裡做選議有的是在那裡吃頭肉是但是他的沒有來他也沒辦法說什麼他沒辦法說就不行啦主委"},{"start":8596.359,"end":8622.381,"text":"你知不知道,現在是他們的法律變成這樣,不公開法,跟你們不講又不行因為司法就是不透明,充滿黑箱所以我們的國人在大陸,如果被他因為法律限制人身自由往往得不到好的司法的救濟跟保障,對當事人的家屬也是煎熬"},{"start":8623.041,"end":8631.387,"text":"所以我們最主要呼籲國人如果沒有把握的話不要輕易到中國大陸進行不必要的行程"},{"start":8653.181,"end":8657.065,"text":"很嚴重的,在這個過程當中,他可以告訴我,北省不知道要怎麼處理在這個過程,你們去選擇,你們說這未來要怎麼做才是好的"},{"start":8669.378,"end":8671.72,"text":"因為我覺得在這裡做生意也好,在這裡吃套路也好,在這裡做菜也好,我們都要去考慮到"},{"start":8692.358,"end":8693.219,"text":"他們在那裡的生活、態度會風險所以主委在這個過程當中你也看到最近台灣人也好、外國人也好"},{"start":8707.375,"end":8727.276,"text":"跟花姐台灣加油就不行了咧主委,你會覺得台灣人要跟中華民國、跟台灣做朋友在那個比賽花姐台灣加油,還是自己跟自己的國家加油啊不行咧"},{"start":8728.396,"end":8736.139,"text":"是 尤其我們現在在大陸常常很多的台商 他們的政治風險越來越高以前他們有很多問題 現在又要擔心他們政治的風險沒有啦 主委 這個過程 你說的風險啦也有很多人去搞風險不知道啦 是所以我們要所有的單位"},{"start":8751.504,"end":8773.04,"text":"一旦來合作的時候,最近發生的事情有時候不公開的,有時候很嚴重的包括你剛才說那次事件的時候,他們的人完全沒辦法聯絡到他到現在啦,跟他人家互相碰面說,跟你還不可以報案啦這這樣有好處嗎?沒有好處?社會在你們這個單位,不管什麼啦"},{"start":8780.665,"end":8800.601,"text":"我們是一定要保護中華民國台灣人,這是最要緊的我們會跟其他的政府部門一起合作,來確保國人的安全在這個過程當中,他們一屆一屆設的法律是要打壓中華民國的法律改變"},{"start":8802.202,"end":8823.166,"text":"所以在這個過程中間有說,現在高雷什麼人去交代做生意,不可以去哪裡?因為有的一定到處擠在那裡,不在那裡做也沒辦法,所以你要怎麼去保護,那是最重要的事。是我們的抱抱,我們的努力,感謝委員。"},{"start":8830.711,"end":8856.016,"text":"好 我們接下來請王宏威委員發言好 首先我們的昭緯辛苦了那我覺得昭緯今天處理得非常非常好必須要做肯定好 那我想接下來請一下我們蘇嘉全董事長"},{"start":8857.011,"end":8879.383,"text":"那個王國遠抱歉那個先暫停一下剛剛一開始有宣告如果說我們有海基會的業務的話我們是因為業務都是祕書長在負責那我們先由祕書長來答詢那如果說有祕書長沒辦法回答的問題的時候我們再請這個蘇董事長上台答詢可是蘇董事長已經有出席啊很有誠意"},{"start":8881.03,"end":8896.005,"text":"您堅持的話,我當然是尊重委員,只是說我們一開始有這樣做好,我想先問一下蘇董事長的意願,對,尊重你的意願好,那就麻煩蘇董事長我想因為董事長都已經非常有誠意的出席,想要謝謝"},{"start":8897.656,"end":8917.284,"text":"董事長首先歡迎您回娘家謝謝您擔任過我們立法院院長現在到海基會當董事長我想請問一下院長因為院長基本上您在當時就任的時候還是強調兩岸要交流要對話對不對"},{"start":8918.985,"end":8945.839,"text":"那我想請問一下像這一陣子就是有關於李貞秀委員的這些爭議那您剛才自己也本身親臨現場看到其實大家這樣的一個這個光是為了他的質詢的從上個星期到現在您認為李貞秀委員的事件會不會影響到兩岸的交流跟對話"},{"start":8948.649,"end":8971.426,"text":"我覺得相關的問題還是陸委會來回答比較好為什麼因為海基會是一個平台我們不管講會影響還是講不會影響我覺得都太主觀那行政部門應該就要來評估不是海基會"},{"start":8972.513,"end":8988.798,"text":"所以對董事長來說,海基會作為一個兩岸的平台,您認為還是他必須要有這樣的一個交流和對話的功能是嗎?這個海基會跟海協會的交流一直都有"},{"start":8990.437,"end":9012.766,"text":"不然我們 一年我們服務的案件有將近31萬件如果平常沒有交流那根本就無法來服務31萬件只是比較高層次的這個對話現在是沒有 平常的交流還是在繼續"},{"start":9013.866,"end":9026.222,"text":"所以您當任董事長您剛剛也講已經兩個月了嘛您的感受是希望在兩岸之間因為我剛剛講包含李貞秀委員這個事件其實某一個程度也會影響我認為是會影響的包含"},{"start":9030.027,"end":9047.226,"text":"國內在國內的大陸籍配偶其實我們現在有時候我們到地方也會大家會有這個對於陸籍配偶也會質疑他的參政權是不是受到影響的問題所以您個人會不會認為說其實我們在對話跟交流的部分應該還要加把勁"},{"start":9048.96,"end":9074.86,"text":"海基會在每一個時刻我們都非常努力在服務兩岸的人民跟台商所以不管在台灣因為政治的因素怎麼樣來做一些彼此之間的攻防都不影響海基會要服務兩岸人民跟台商這麼一個功能"},{"start":9075.12,"end":9083.99,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝蘇嘉全董事長那雖然因為剛才其實我們召委有說明但是非常感謝你還是願意上來來做詢問謝謝 謝謝董事長好 那個時間暫停那請我們陸委會主委"},{"start":9096.037,"end":9118.374,"text":"主委剛才黃建委員問您一個問題事實上我覺得您有點糊弄過去他是請教你就你所了解到目前為止有沒有大陸人民來到台灣插曲的這個戶籍落籍之後他有成功放棄中華人民共和國的國籍有沒有人完成過"},{"start":9119.52,"end":9144.563,"text":"放棄中華人民共和國國籍有沒有人完成過戶籍沒有問題 國籍如果他有取得其他國家國籍如果是陸配的話是有相當的困難所以你所了解應該是沒有取得他們官方的證明是有困難"},{"start":9146.244,"end":9170.638,"text":"有這個因為媒體啊就是這個名嘴怎麼講啊因為他們根本不是陸委會也不是海基會所以如果按照您所了解至少到目前為止在台灣的大陸籍不管是配偶或大陸籍人士在台灣取得戶籍但他沒有成功放棄中華人民共和國國籍而現在而現在我們內政部"},{"start":9171.078,"end":9198.009,"text":"一再要求就李貞秀委員一定要放棄國籍他才保有這個立法委員的身份這會不會強人所難跟委員報告我們的國籍法當然我們不是內政部我們不是他主管機關就我們了解國籍法它有分兩段第一段就是你在就職前你就必須放棄那放棄你要表達你主觀的態度意願要出來"},{"start":9198.993,"end":9216.588,"text":"那到底中國大陸政府願不願意發出一個證明說你已經放棄可是他沒有辦法發出就說按照你們的經驗值他至少有一個按照我們經驗值中國大陸政府可能會阻擾不會配合他不會配合所以這個其實真的某一個程度是強人所難"},{"start":9217.969,"end":9244.165,"text":"但是我要講的說我們現在政府是一個精神錯亂的政府為什麼呢?按照你們今天的報告你的口頭報告第二頁就講說就說今天對國家負有高度忠誠義務的軍公教人員要查核他有沒有中共的身份證等等之類的然後避免軍公教人員施政因兩岸雙重身份導致外界質疑"},{"start":9244.865,"end":9252.673,"text":"所以這包含這個立法委員也要求你不得有所謂的雙重國籍可是好笑了當這個義男他說我現在"},{"start":9258.381,"end":9274.772,"text":"這個已經入籍了中國大陸已經入籍中國大陸那我可以不用服役了吧一男這不是軍公教嗎不是軍人嗎結果內政部說沒有關係你即便喪失台灣的身份啊你還是要服役啊"},{"start":9275.732,"end":9298.838,"text":"這不是雙重標準嗎如果你今天覺得立法委員是有機敏性難道G隊裡面沒有機敏性嗎一南都告訴你我現在沒有台灣身份我現在是中國大陸籍的身份有他的戶籍然後但是我們的政府說不行你仍然需要進入G隊需要去當兵所以我要講的是這部分我們的邏輯是不是錯亂啊"},{"start":9303.1,"end":9331.154,"text":"跟委員報告 我們的邏輯來自於我們依法行政在兩岸條例第九條之一 雙標本不 我們就是依法行政跟委員報告 您剛剛說的這些我們軍公教對國家要效忠的這個我們不能在兩岸有雙重的這些身份包括申領他們的身份證戶籍那這部分我們從我們公務員做起 越南不是軍人越南不是軍公教嗎"},{"start":9331.934,"end":9354.691,"text":"是那你剛剛提到那個是我們說你在台灣擁有台灣身份但是你取得中國大陸身份你就會喪失台灣的身份以及因台灣的戶籍所有的權利但是你的義務並不因此而失去所以這個時候你們要引用兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":9357.613,"end":9379.731,"text":"老師說啦 當你們認為在兩岸人民之間不適用兩岸人民關係條例而要適用國籍法的時候其實我們最近就一直在直接的挑戰你們主委啊 其實你們應該揮刀自攻啦既然要配合這個兩岸是一邊一國 要適用國籍法的話"},{"start":9380.532,"end":9407.277,"text":"其實陸委會真的可以揮刀自攻直接把廢除掉兩岸人民關係條例直接廢除掉陸委會否則的話就會出現這樣的雙標以及整個的邏輯錯亂跟委員報告我們沒有雙標跟委員報告我們兩岸條例第21條就是我們會依法維護保障陸配的參政權不管是登記為公職候選人"},{"start":9409.437,"end":9425.404,"text":"或者是應考市府公職當你拒絕回答李徵秀委員的質詢的時候當你現在還在講說我們會依法保障陸配的參政權的時候真的非常非常的諷刺"},{"start":9426.364,"end":9443.916,"text":"因為現在不是只有李貞秀委員而已現在連基層的陸委會的參政權你們陸委會都沒有保障而且你們並沒有依照兩岸人民關係條例的基礎去保障他們好委員這不是事實我們依法保障好謝謝委員好我們接著請張宏祿委員發言"},{"start":9465.246,"end":9486.113,"text":"我請邱主委麻煩邱主委總委好主委早上很多人都問你同樣的問題我只問你一句有雙重國籍的人在依台灣的法令可不可以任民意代表"},{"start":9488.373,"end":9505.601,"text":"跟委員報告,如果有中華民國以外的國籍身份,當然不能任公職,包括民意代表?對嘛,就一句很簡單嘛,照法令來行事就好了嘛,對不對?你陸委會是國籍法的主管機關嗎?"},{"start":9506.781,"end":9520.045,"text":"我們是配合內政部,內政部才是國際法的主管機關所以啊,你陸委會也是要遵照台灣所有的法令嗎?是對不對?對啊,就一句話很簡單的問題嘛我想要請問一下"},{"start":9525.509,"end":9543.363,"text":"中國它今年在2026兩會強調十五五規劃裡面有一個台包同等待遇這件事情你們有沒有關注到?是,它對台的融合發展"},{"start":9544.584,"end":9567.559,"text":"就是同等待遇那我們都有關注到他可能會他以前就講過不過從今年開始我想他會加大力度用一些好處利益吸引我們的年輕朋友去那邊就業吸引我們的資金技術到中國大陸參與他們的紅色供應鏈用這個來彰顯他們對台的促統促榮"},{"start":9574.163,"end":9585.588,"text":"它裡面最主要的核心就像你說的透過經濟利益跟生活便利來吸引人才跟企業但人才"},{"start":9587.379,"end":9612.478,"text":"我認為他是把年輕人放在重點用錢用利益這樣子吸引年輕人這不是一般的商業的攬柴而已他是重點很針對我們的半導體產業在全世界舉足輕重但如果"},{"start":9613.439,"end":9617.429,"text":"他用錢把我們剛畢業的學生全部都"},{"start":9619.602,"end":9648.014,"text":"吸引到中國去那對台灣未來的發展我認為是有很大的影響你認為勒是我們平時也在做這個中國大陸基於他統戰持續我們的年輕人或是我們的企業之間到中國大陸發展但是我們就要提出一些風險方面的這種宣導比如說中國大陸現在年輕人的失業率居高不下"},{"start":9648.914,"end":9675.594,"text":"中國大陸的經濟在下行外資外商撤離那麼嚴重房地產市場非常不正不敢消費不敢投資這樣的經濟的實況我們要讓我們的年輕朋友知道所以我們在校園也好在校園外的各種的嗜毒教育這個是我們日委會跟其他部會一起都在努力的事情讓他們都了解中國大陸的風險"},{"start":9677.795,"end":9688.884,"text":"不要受到中國大陸只是宣傳統戰的影響中國要吸引台灣的年輕人或人才附中你認為是糖衣還是毒藥"},{"start":9691.077,"end":9718.194,"text":"我想短期對於一定會有一些吸引力但長期他往往我們也了解做了不少的研究跟實際上面的經驗就是常常口惠而實不至那中國大陸的這一種就業的市場還有他們的法律各方面都跟台灣有很大的不同那我們很多年輕人不了解"},{"start":9719.535,"end":9741.711,"text":"而有一些風險那這部分就是我們要透過各種管道來強化我們年輕朋友對中國大陸的識讀的了解透過各種我們都知道然後我想要請問一下我們陸委會知道這個問題那你有沒有跟經濟部啊比如說經濟部、國會、教育部等等各個部會有去協調有讓我們年輕人有知道這個訊息"},{"start":9745.878,"end":9762.751,"text":"宣傳的部分或是在做宣導的工作如果會做的比較多但是我們很多重要的資訊我剛剛講中國大陸資訊下行他們自己都高失業率了怎麼可能照顧更多的台灣的年輕朋友"},{"start":9763.792,"end":9791.619,"text":"以及我們到中國大陸求學的人數也在減少去那邊工作的人也在減少這個是從市場規律就可以看出這樣的問題此外剛剛很多委員也質詢到除了經濟下行的問題不管是內部經濟的不正的問題或是對外可能受到其他國家的一些抵制的問題因為過度傾銷還有很多剛剛很多委員也指教很多的政治風險"},{"start":9793.219,"end":9814.405,"text":"這也是越來越嚴重而且逼著每個台商都要去做政治表態這個是過去所沒有的風險那我們不僅是台商不然是我們年輕朋友都要了解目前最新狀況的中國大陸生活環境跟他們的經商的環境跟過去有很大的不同主委"},{"start":9815.245,"end":9830.1,"text":"我現在質詢你,你可以講這些,但你要知道,年輕人他的管道,他知道你說的這些嗎?我剛強調的是,你要跨部會啊,包括教育部,包括什麼的啊。我們都有,謝謝。都有,我覺得我看到的很少,你們都有。"},{"start":9835.205,"end":9862.419,"text":"您剛也說,你們說的比較多喔是,我們很多計畫都是跟各部會一起合作你說在校園裡面的很多試讀教育我們的跟教育部都有很多的計畫在推動那也感謝教育部啦,或是沒有啦,我覺得啦其實我自己在很多的管道,很多什麼我覺得啦,宣傳不足啦"},{"start":9863.139,"end":9891.212,"text":"反而是人家加大力道透過各種管道在宣傳這些我們的宣傳的真的不足如果只靠你陸委會我說真的年輕人也不一定每天去看你們陸委會所有的資訊他要就業他要什麼的他可能經濟部教育部什麼的這是最多對不對我希望你們要有跨部會的合作"},{"start":9892.812,"end":9903.456,"text":"可以嗎當然要這也是很必要以陸委會的資源那麼少那我們確實需要各部會一起協力來推動好 謝謝謝謝委員好 我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":9927.772,"end":9927.792,"text":"哈囉"},{"start":9948.022,"end":9950.404,"text":"你看我們這稍微第一天就這麼棒"},{"start":9973.637,"end":9975.298,"text":"是每天嗎?每月二十五"},{"start":9991.589,"end":9991.889,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10022.669,"end":10023.11,"text":"還那麼多"},{"start":10056.759,"end":10056.959,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":10068.098,"end":10079.38,"text":"鸡蛋糕"},{"start":10103.312,"end":10118.502,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":10131.338,"end":10131.418,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10133.248,"end":10133.828,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10174.778,"end":10175.538,"text":"放鬆一點點"},{"start":10188.882,"end":10189.643,"text":"我現在是"},{"start":10211.617,"end":10213.238,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 請徐信義委員發言"},{"start":10246.808,"end":10250.872,"text":"謝謝主席 本席有請我們陸委會邱主委邱主委好 邱主委好今天本席要談的最主要是我們台灣人民的人身安全"},{"start":10269.192,"end":10283.778,"text":"那現在正在跨境受到威脅您認同嗎是已經有好多件跨境鎮壓的案例了對我看到陸委會的報告你們自己的報告寫有313件案件"},{"start":10286.7,"end":10302.378,"text":"313次到中國大陸去因為刑方不明或是受到他法律限制我們人身自由我們不能回來還有失蹤的對 114人失聯174人疑似被限制人身自由這是你們的報告"},{"start":10303.539,"end":10331.422,"text":"那這中間一定也還有黑數吧你們有掌握嗎所以我們也注意到這些是有來跟我們報案的那沒有報案的更多所以這些黑數可能是更多所以我們也要關注更重要的是這個數字它仍然以每個月20件在增加所以主委你都發現每個月20件在增加所以我們就看出這個是不是形成一個制度性的風險"},{"start":10333.391,"end":10349.697,"text":"所以我們要提醒國人,復入還是要有風險所以已經形成制度性的風險了你們難道沒有保護制度,你們只能提醒啊所以難怪大家一直說陸委會該裁撤你現在制度性風險你怎麼辦"},{"start":10352.662,"end":10376.491,"text":"是 跟委員報告我們由於跟中國大陸過去也有兩岸共同打擊犯罪司法互助合作的機制好像是在馬英九總統執政好像民進黨執政之後都沒有雙方仍然仍然透過既有的溝通聯繫機制我們要讓對方去了解維護兩岸民眾的權益這個很重要"},{"start":10379.952,"end":10390.519,"text":"那我們還是按照這個機制去維護你按照這個機制那現在面對你自己都承認這是形成一個制度性風險你到底有沒有掌握嘛你掌握多少呢"},{"start":10391.095,"end":10416.585,"text":"是 我們也不斷透過各種的宣傳管道要國人出入那你還是提醒 你還是宣傳而已沒有那個制度啊沒有數據就沒有治理嘛所以我請問你你有沒有了解哪些地區最危險你總是要給我們民眾你提醒之外你要給他一些更明確的東西哪些地區最危險"},{"start":10418.015,"end":10433.854,"text":"沒有 沒有掌握哪些身份最容易被鎖定我覺得他散佈在各個地方中國各主要的 當你程式為主各地方都有對啊 所以你就是沒有掌握你才會這樣講那我再問你 哪些身份最容易被鎖定"},{"start":10436.241,"end":10458.412,"text":"各種身份都有你比如說我們曾經擔任機敏工作的人或者是擔任公務人員、副路都很容易被對岸的相關人員接觸機敏工作跟擔任過公務員的"},{"start":10460.033,"end":10480.433,"text":"對 比如說他過去可能擔任一些安全工作 很容易被接觸你那個313件 你能掌握的裡面 我問你失聯的跟疑似被限制人身自由裡面有多少比例是公務員 多少比例是你說的機敏身份 你跟我講這個比例我們事後可以給委員"},{"start":10482.304,"end":10511.263,"text":"所以你們沒有掌握我們都有掌握包括委員很關心的我們很多像一貫道的朋友在中國大陸被逮捕或是審判所以是不是一貫道的身份也是很容易被鎖定他風險比較高他如果有傳教的行為哪些活動風險高這我第三個要問的哪些活動風險高"},{"start":10513.205,"end":10534.067,"text":"我想他各種的類型當然有些在中國大陸從事犯罪當然被他們的相關法律限制人身自由當然這是相當大的比例不過我們最近發生一個比例我們越來越覺得就是這個刑方不明失蹤的案例這個報案的人數有增加"},{"start":10534.599,"end":10547.103,"text":"那到底什麼類型嘛 到底什麼樣的身份 哪些地區或它是哪些活動的風險最高這三個問題你們一直講出來 我們事後可以再編啊相關的那個細項我們是規劃了很多類型 我們都願意提供給委員來參考"},{"start":10557.367,"end":10580.1,"text":"你身為陸委會主委你應該對你這就是台灣大陸地區連這樣的一個問題你都沒辦法掌握好最後我再講你們的登錄系統你知道只有幾%登錄嗎你知道嗎我們大概都維持在2點多對啊整個登錄系統就2%那我問你另外98%的人呢沒有進入到保護系統"},{"start":10581.519,"end":10586.292,"text":"所以我不知道陸委會在做什麼是委員我們在"},{"start":10587.82,"end":10612.635,"text":"這幾年中國大陸人數有大幅增加但是我們登錄的人數也增加蠻多至少這兩年我們登錄的人數跟比例都有增加你再怎麼增加你就2%那98%呢所以我們說絕對不是只有宣導你就是沒有機制 沒有制度"},{"start":10614.054,"end":10635.92,"text":"你只能一直宣導所以我想要問的是我們這個接著你國人如果被留置反正前面我的所有問題你們大概都沒辦法回答那我現在再問一個最關鍵的我們國人如果被留置的時候請問政府怎麼做"},{"start":10637.878,"end":10656.846,"text":"你有沒有單一窗口?你有沒有SOP標準作業程序?我們還是透過兩岸的司法還是只有一個有機會的只讀不回的傳真機?當然不是如此我們仍然在兩岸共打還有相關的機制"},{"start":10657.586,"end":10682.9,"text":"那我們把相關的人在中國大陸刑方不免或是犯什麼稅你有沒有單一窗口你先回答這個問題還是在詢問中國大陸到底我們國人下落何在或是犯了什麼刑法我們這回剛剛也說我們風險的提醒我們都一直在講來講去就只有提醒"},{"start":10684.821,"end":10708.397,"text":"所以我在前面的會期就講 你就改成叫對大陸宣傳委員會因為你只會做宣傳好 最後我還要再問你剛剛講有有有 什麼都有請問你平均處理時間多少發生事情之後你成功的聯繫率又是多少你的KPI在哪裡你回答我"},{"start":10710.259,"end":10733.109,"text":"我們至少都有跟每一位家屬都有到家戶的訪談要保護我們的國人這不是政府的責任嗎我們提供各種法律各方面的協助他的家屬而且台灣跟對岸不管經商旅遊甚至各種的活動這麼的頻繁今天本席的所有問題"},{"start":10734.309,"end":10758.521,"text":"主委我很遺憾你都沒有辦法給明確的回答而且都感覺到我們的陸委會真的沒有這個我要跟委員講我們六位同仁 海基會同仁各部會同仁都盡心盡力今天唯一造成這個效果成效不好我想對岸婦有很大的責任他們刻意的政治杯葛我們這是兩岸風險之所在"},{"start":10759.301,"end":10782.53,"text":"但是我們自我要求的 包括現在國人登錄的人數也是明顯增加等於上一屆當立委的時候 國民黨執政沒有這個問題啦所以你現在什麼責任推給別人也很容易嘛成功者找方法 失敗者找理由所以我們希望陸委會加油好不好 謝謝謝謝委員 我們會努力"},{"start":10790.575,"end":10803.23,"text":"我們接下來請李博義召委發言謝謝 又請邱主委麻煩邱主委"},{"start":10809.404,"end":10830.924,"text":"主委辛苦,我想陸委會的工作實在是非常的辛苦我想要先從左院長訪日這個行程來先跟你談起那從左院長可以成功到日本為台灣隊加油其實那一刻我也在場,我是非常感動的因為我知道這背後有太多太多人不能講的努力"},{"start":10832.625,"end":10860.406,"text":"包含這個整個包機的過程包含出境整個過程都不能驚擾到中共的敏感神經我曾經在高雄市政府服務的時候那個時候的城局市長他其實在出訪的時候也會邀國民黨的議員一同然後看看這一次出訪這些內容結果發生了一件事情有一個國民黨的議員我也不知道是誰啦"},{"start":10861.127,"end":10880.451,"text":"跑去跟中國時報的記者說陳菊這一次去古巴有可能會看到卡斯楚結果那一天我在邁阿密跟陳菊前市長飛到哈瓦那的時候我排隊排在他後面過不去了"},{"start":10883.413,"end":10900.445,"text":"中共看到媒體報導之後會採取的任何動作即使去到中南美洲影響力還在那這就是左院長這一趟行程為什麼要保密的原因那我也看到為什麼"},{"start":10903.258,"end":10915.788,"text":"當卓院長踏上這個東京巨蛋的時候國台辦第一時間馬上跳出來的這些反應主委你有意識到嗎你事先知道嗎那我們要怎麼因應是我想"},{"start":10917.168,"end":10936.673,"text":"我們包括卓院長的外交突破做了很多保密的工作一方面不要讓我們相對的國家為難二方面又能夠突破這意義重大那重點是中國大陸現在還是無所不用其極"},{"start":10938.474,"end":10957.655,"text":"來外交打壓外交封鎖我們所以現在外交突破的工作都國人都應該要來支持全力的來支持所以你對國際辦的回應你有什麼回應我想兩岸關係最主要的障礙就是"},{"start":10958.772,"end":10976.755,"text":"中共不願意正視中華民國存在的客觀事實他不願意在國際間能夠尊重中華民國做一個國家對外進行交往的權利他說權利在封殺"},{"start":10978.401,"end":10999.615,"text":"目前他也透過不管雙邊多邊能夠形塑所謂國際一中持續在打壓台灣的生存台灣的國家主權象徵等等確實我們陸委會常常跟外交部說我們面臨的壓力本質都是相同的"},{"start":11000.876,"end":11028.441,"text":"那我們絕對不棄捏我們繼續來突破好 身為執政黨還有身為覺得如果我們台灣身為台灣人民我覺得我們的行政院長可以踏上日本那在雙方有默契的情況下讓這件事情成行我覺得應該是給予鼓勵很遺憾我們的在野黨全部都在譴責很遺憾我們的在野黨全部都用各種方法的在挑骨頭這我們表示非常遺憾另外"},{"start":11029.181,"end":11054.726,"text":"我要講一個事實存在的觀點主委你剛講得很清楚李貞秀女士沒有辦法放棄中國國籍的原因沒有辦法放棄中國國籍是誰的原因我想是中國大陸政府阻撓她為什麼中國大陸政府為什麼要這樣我講給你聽中國政府"},{"start":11056.302,"end":11076.868,"text":"堅持不會讓他放棄國籍的原因其實就是要造成一個事實跟早上民眾黨要合法掩護非法一樣他造成一個有中國戶籍中國國籍的人站在立法院的立法委員的講台上他造成這個事實他讓國際看讓國際看 你看"},{"start":11081.032,"end":11106.781,"text":"這台灣的立法院我們中國人也是成功站上去了那所以我為什麼在擔任召委的時候我會尊重行政院可以不用尋答我想要在國際上也讓國際的友人也讓國際知道台灣是民主法治針對中國想要造成既定事實我們沒有接受來 主委這一個既定事實你接受嗎"},{"start":11109.373,"end":11132.183,"text":"跟委員報告修正一下我們不能讓他成為既定事實主委你要怎麼做我們就是依法行政我們剛剛講到不管是他現在不具備有兩岸條例參選的資格之外剛剛您特別強調他也沒有照我們國際法的要求落實對中華民國單一效忠的義務"},{"start":11133.856,"end":11160.924,"text":"所以他是雙重違法在這種情況底下我們今天我們就是依法行政我們沒有辦法接受一個不具備立委資格的人對行政官員進行質詢我們認為合法的立委才具有憲法的質詢權好另外我再重述為什麼針對李貞秀的女士的所知我們不能配合的原因"},{"start":11161.764,"end":11182.039,"text":"台上七分鐘台下七個小時他可以做什麼台上七分鐘他可以捍衛自己認為是中國沒有辦法給他放棄國籍的身份不是他的原因台下七個小時他可以跟內政部索取國土安全之關鍵基礎設施他可以跟儘管"},{"start":11183.64,"end":11203.69,"text":"陸出境管理局來要求這些所謂的監控名單他可以跟警政署維安特勤要索資讓國家元首讓國家首長可能都遭遇危險他可以索資要求這些敏感地區他可以對海委會海巡署索資要求海域情資細思"},{"start":11205.171,"end":11227.938,"text":"而且他要求這些內容如果提供的話他又將面對中國包含反間諜法、國安法懲讀22條他是會被沈博洋委員那麼明確效忠台灣中華民國他也會被跨海通緝何況是李貞秀女士啊請、禮、罰我們都不可以同意"},{"start":11228.698,"end":11243.202,"text":"是,委員我們很贊成,因為任何人只要沒有放棄對岸的國籍按照中共的國家安全法、國家情報法、反間諜法他就必須配合中共收集情報所以這個對他而言"},{"start":11245.063,"end":11261.015,"text":"要不然他違反中共的法律拒絕收集台灣情報那要不然就違反台灣的法律來洩漏我們國家的機密所以這個不管怎麼樣都是無法落實對台灣關鍵就是效忠誰對不對對好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":11273.032,"end":11287.058,"text":"我們接下來請張志倫委員發言好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請邱承正邱主委麻煩邱主委"},{"start":11293.072,"end":11319.489,"text":"三位好 主委好主委根據我們最新我們台灣國人的民調在去年的年中針對我們的兩岸關係的僵局就是採取持續對抗的方式我們有高達六成三的民眾強烈表達不滿那今年我們最新的這個民調顯示超高達五成的民眾擔心兩岸內在五年內會開戰"},{"start":11321.87,"end":11333.604,"text":"所以我們可以看到從愛新澤政府上台上任以來兩岸的關係持續緊繃我們很擔心現在的民進黨政府就是用對抗來取代對話尤其這個"},{"start":11337.087,"end":11360.956,"text":"陸委會最近接受媒體訪問的時候說兩岸交流的核心是要去風險跟去政治化然後也是希望說繼續積極來溝通對話努力朝下避免衝突的方向來前進那我想要請教主委您的看法兩岸的部分就您的看法有沒有辦法降低對抗以及降低兩岸發生衝突戰爭的風險"},{"start":11363.157,"end":11389.339,"text":"謝謝張委員的那個槌尋我想你剛剛講的都我們的政策我們就是維持現狀不卑不亢維持現狀那我們也希望兩岸能夠在對等尊嚴進行健康有序的交流那我們希望中國大陸要放棄敵意思維要放棄一些負面的作為特別是對台灣複合性的施壓"},{"start":11390.18,"end":11407.758,"text":"今天中國大陸他對於我們複合性的施壓不管是軍機建擾台外交打壓經濟脅迫社會滲透一連串的法律戰像跨境鎮壓還有這個鋪天蓋地的這些認知作戰"},{"start":11408.519,"end":11436.138,"text":"還有灰色地帶侵擾可以說是對台步步進逼極限施壓這才是兩岸關係緊張台海風險的根源那我們不斷的呼籲中國大陸他這麼做其實對他的國際形象也不好那現在各國都開始圍堵中國開始對於地緣風險提升很高大家都在安全方面注入了很多資源各種關係"},{"start":11437.619,"end":11457.555,"text":"也提升那雖然如此我們的政策還是跟委員所說的一致沒有改變我們還是要去風險化還是要盡全力維護台海的和平穩定的現狀這是我們的目標謝謝主委主委剛剛提了很多可是沒有聽到我們陸委會的具體作為我們"},{"start":11458.696,"end":11475.812,"text":"還是希望說論委會有具體的作為那剛剛主委特別講到交流那交流有一個非常大的重點就是我們大家現在在兩岸的觀光那我先跟主委報告一個數字在113年的時候台灣附中的人數是277萬人114年的時候成長50萬人到323萬人"},{"start":11481.997,"end":11502.174,"text":"大陸來台人數也有稍微一點點的增加那我們現在都還是知道說現在我們陸委會我們的旅遊警示對大陸的旅遊警示都是橙色燈號那就讓我覺得很奇怪現在是不是民間的我們台灣跟對岸民間的交流很熱烈可是官方的交流"},{"start":11503.195,"end":11526.667,"text":"這個很冷淡那我想要請教之前去年有請教過主委針對我們台灣針對這個橘色的燈號有沒有可能未來去調整燈號那以及有沒有機會之前講的促成兩小會的對話來對我們兩邊對我們台灣的這個禁團令有沒有今年度有沒有可能來做一個調整"},{"start":11528.048,"end":11544.336,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛有很多委員在追尋我們最近的很多國人在中國大陸刑方不明或者是被盤查或者是因為受到法律限制不能有人身"},{"start":11545.316,"end":11573.735,"text":"自由安全方面的限制不能回到台灣來這些都是風險確實有風險那因為風險蠻高的我們還是要持續用燈號來提示來提醒國人負入要有安全方面的考量那另外我們要回答我們張委員剛剛所追尋就兩岸觀光的部分我們到現在還是一樣還是秉持著我們的最大的善意我們希望針對"},{"start":11575.656,"end":11601.508,"text":"剛剛所說的人身安全的這些風險我們針對兩岸的旅遊的這個整個安全還有品質還有穩定性公平性我們不要讓業者活在一個惶惶不安他們說斷就斷我們也不要過去的這個兩岸的那個光光亂降我們一直主張兩岸的觀光小兩會應該做下來溝通談"},{"start":11603.689,"end":11618.789,"text":"好 謝謝主委針對您剛提到有幾個點希望陸委會還是要加油積極針對我們國人赴陸的人身安全我相信每一個國人的人身安全都非常重要可是本席剛剛聽到你跟很多委員的回應我發現這個陸委會還是一樣"},{"start":11621.112,"end":11636.812,"text":"沒有對策那我認為每一個國人只要在大陸遇到人身安全你可以發布新聞啊讓台灣人知道說有這樣的問題可是我平常都沒有看到新聞只有在你們的專案報告裡面才說現在好像非常危險所以這一點我也請主委要來做加強的一個動作"},{"start":11639.437,"end":11655.987,"text":"我還是必須要說陸委會一年的預算大概十億左右當然我知道我們所有官員大家都非常辛苦可是我最近也得知陸委會的機關人力缺額嚴重就我所得到的資料缺額將近達到兩成"},{"start":11658.388,"end":11673.38,"text":"那我想要請問主委兩岸的事務非常的複雜那兩岸難道是因為兩岸交流全面遇到停滯所以業務量大幅減少所以是政府刻意要縮減編制預缺不補嗎還是其他政治性的考量請主委回答"},{"start":11673.82,"end":11688.449,"text":"是跟委員報告我們也了解我們很多部門在補缺額的時候那麼最近缺額是比較多但是我們有其中有一項部分比如說我們港澳"},{"start":11689.92,"end":11717.341,"text":"這些外館中國大陸基於他們的政治立場我們必須要承諾他一中承諾書才讓我們派過去所以我們港澳很多的缺額都沒辦法補這是一個結構性的限制那另外因為我們陸委會的工作真的是比較沉重大家打探了一下我們陸委會的同仁真的是上班的時間長工作壓力也沉重就是要"},{"start":11717.941,"end":11744.508,"text":"要應處來自於中國大陸的鋪天蓋地這些壓力那我們真的是我們感謝我們陸委會同仁還有海基會的同仁還在監守崗位來維護我們兩岸關係正常健康有序的交流還有維持台海和平穩定我們仍然在對台商提供各種的服務仍然在落實當中好謝謝主委那我是不是有機會請我們的蘇董事長"},{"start":11747.509,"end":11748.15,"text":"方便請教一個問題嗎好 麻煩蘇董事長"},{"start":11758.516,"end":11783.889,"text":"好 董事長實際的關係我本席要這邊感謝你願意承擔來擔任我們海基會的董事長未來對兩岸的關係以及我們台灣兩岸的情勢做了努力巨大的奉獻本席在這邊非常感謝你那這邊我請教一個問題看說如果能方便回應的話就請你回應就是說在你接任此職位的時候就是賴總統有沒有交付你什麼樣的任務"},{"start":11785.75,"end":11813.653,"text":"就您擔任這個海基會董事長來講您對未來對於大陸的交流您的計畫是如何請你簡單來分享一下 謝謝好 謝謝我覺得賴總統會請我到海基會他給我的任務就是要服務好兩岸的人民跟台商那基本上如果在雙方沒有預設立場"},{"start":11815.074,"end":11828.961,"text":"我們都樂意進一步跟大陸能夠來做交流但是現在民間的交流還是宗教文化的交流還是蠻密切在進行的"},{"start":11847.895,"end":11862.951,"text":"好 下一位 我們有請廖先祥召委 質詢 謝謝謝謝主席 麻煩邀請我們邱主委請邱所政 邱主委 謝謝"},{"start":11867.358,"end":11884.589,"text":"主委你好上禮拜五我們立法院的院會其實有一個議題我也有上新聞就是有很多的委員在院會喊台灣中國一邊一國我不是問您說您的立場怎麼樣您的立場您的個人主觀意志沒關係我要問的是說因為剛剛有委員問主委說現在兩岸關係是什麼關係您就說兩岸是兩岸關係既然是兩岸關係如果說立法院有委員想要推動台灣中國一邊一國的話"},{"start":11896.457,"end":11914.257,"text":"那我們的憲政的架構或者是我們的中央民國法律要怎麼樣子的去調整我覺得您可以給一些意見給您可以提一些意見給這些倡議台灣中國一邊一國的立委因為他們其實是有權利來做這樣的修法那在這樣子的憲政法律架構下是要怎麼調整這樣子"},{"start":11916.175,"end":11942.237,"text":"我想我們立委要推動各種立法我們從民主政治原則基本上都給予尊重但是因為兩岸的問題複雜敏感微妙而關鍵那我們作為這個在亞太地區一個維持穩定和平繁榮的這個角色我們向來"},{"start":11944.139,"end":11959.254,"text":"推動各種重大的法案除了我們內部要有國人堅定的支持要朝野有共識那也要符合國際社會的期待單純請教在我們的憲政法律的架構下"},{"start":11959.955,"end":11978.377,"text":"要怎麼做要怎麼修法才能夠真的如同他們所倡議的去推動我想說您可以給這些委員一些意見而不是說或許有些人嘴巴講講不知道怎麼去推動那我們可以讓他們支援跟我們的做可以有一致的一個做法這樣子您可以給一些指導不敢"},{"start":11979.057,"end":12001.931,"text":"我覺得我們是一個主權國家,我們都依照法定程序來推動當然我們是一個民主的社會,這個朝野要有共識,這是最重要的我會說如果委員想推的話,假設我現在想推,或某個委員想推那我們大概是在哪一個憲法的條文,或是法律的條文需要去做修正呢?"},{"start":12003.583,"end":12018.837,"text":"我想您剛剛所說的那個當然會噴出到憲法的修正是 包括哪一條什麼樣的文字需要去做修正呢可以給委員一些意見嗎我們以後也可以給他建議啊如果有涉及到兩條列修正"},{"start":12019.477,"end":12037.886,"text":"我們陸委會職責所在一定會提供很多相關的資訊沒有問題所以就是沒關係你可能好像不太方便給立法院一些指導嘛那如果說有委員提的話你們再提一些意見是不是是是好那沒關係沒關係看你好像不太願意回答這個問題好那這個"},{"start":12041.327,"end":12050.599,"text":"回到現在非常熱的話題,當然就是李正秀委員的議題,我不是問您的立場怎麼樣,我正要問說我們陸配在去年的時候普遍因為單一戶籍的問題,去年我們陸委會也非常積極在協助陸配去讓他們補辦"},{"start":12059.17,"end":12085.995,"text":"那我問一下如果這些陸配因為我們要行使中華民國國民的權利的時候要拿到身分證行使享受權利跟義務的時候就必須要放棄戶籍嘛但是很多陸配他是在2025年他才放棄戶籍的對不對在去年我們輔導了非常多那如果這些陸配在2025年之前行使的權利這部分我們陸委會是怎麼做認定的呢是"},{"start":12090.202,"end":12110.048,"text":"基本上我們就尊重已經發生的事實不過我倒是可以跟委員報告我們為什麼會有這個政策因為我們的疫情比較長長達三年我們結婚的陸配我們一年還有五千位那他們呢沒辦法去中國大陸"},{"start":12110.988,"end":12126.12,"text":"放棄他戶籍那麼把住校戶籍證明拿回來因為那時候疫情我們不可能說中國大陸疫情那麼嚴重我們很不能到了說不行你一定要三個月所以主委的意思是已經發生過的事情就發生了我們也不會去"},{"start":12127.421,"end":12151.253,"text":"追究那李貞秀委員的問題他已經就職了我們當初為什麼會有這個專案是從那個要解決我們疫情期間沒辦法去補辦不只疫情期間嘛很多陸配都是十多年二十多年嘛對不對那他們過去所行使的一些權利或者義務都已經可能已經塵埃落定了甚至我舉個例投票好了"},{"start":12152.654,"end":12171.753,"text":"票也投啦那過去那些票你要收回來嗎我想應該也不太可能這樣子去主張嘛那同樣除非法院有做相關的一個判決那才可能去推翻過去的一些行政的程序的一個完備嘛我們可能需要透過法院那一樣的我們李政協委員"},{"start":12172.774,"end":12187.646,"text":"就職了那您說不溯及既往那為什麼就單單就李政秀委員這個案子我們認為說應該要溯及既往我們沒有溯及既往他是因為法律明定在那一邊至於"},{"start":12188.826,"end":12210.897,"text":"委員說這涉及很多人啊他們投票行為怎麼樣啊因為這個都不法分割我們在釋法性當初要發動這個專案讓大家有機會來維持他在法律上的合法地位一方面是我們常常說要給陸配一個安居樂業的我們都要補救嘛我知道你們都要補救嘛"},{"start":12211.657,"end":12230.356,"text":"對 但是我們針對這個法律問題我們也有 而是我們認為這是我們要去面對 要去解決我們做了一個這個補救的一個措施 過去很多行政機關已經做了行政處分 原則上我們就既往不咎嘛 對不對"},{"start":12231.71,"end":12248.88,"text":"是這樣的概念嘛對不對剛剛主委您講的既往不咎那就是行政處分已經生效的話那我們既往不咎那李貞秀委員她也已經完成了就職的行政程序啊那為什麼我們不是因為我們自己對法院那個法定的理解而去"},{"start":12249.54,"end":12274.486,"text":"用自己的意識去推翻這一個行政程序我了解委員的意思但是我們兩岸條例因為非常清楚的規定這個第九條之一你如果擁有中國大陸的戶籍那你就會喪失我們台灣的戶籍還有因為這個戶籍所衍生的權利那李貞秀女士她就是沒有遇到兩岸條例的放棄沒有沒有 那就參選資格或就職的問題我今天舉一個實際的例子好了"},{"start":12278.007,"end":12292.836,"text":"一個里長過去有發生一些新聞里長比較可能發生同票同票的情況最後抽籤嘛可能最後差一兩票也有可能這樣子的情形那最後如果我們發現說有一個陸配他其實當初是沒有這樣子的一個投票資格的時候"},{"start":12294.67,"end":12318.964,"text":"那現在我們要去追究嗎有委員跟您報告如果我們的陸配因為從我們剛剛講的法律如果他的身份沒有放棄中國大陸戶籍有人說他有雙重身份我們移民署就把他台灣人的身份那是一個形身取份啊我的意思說已經發生了他已經去投票了"},{"start":12320.12,"end":12339.081,"text":"或者是說中選會已經發投票通知書給他的突然這個選務人員說我知道你有雙同戶籍你不能投票你不能讓他投嗎這個部分真的沒辦法切割你也不知道要投給誰你無法去追溯所以這個在過去的法律上法律的判決上都有這個所以追溯就會有這個問題"},{"start":12340.763,"end":12359.769,"text":"追溯會有過去你剛剛講無法切割的問題那有去推翻過去行政處分的一個問題那一樣的李政協委員他也有一個推翻行政處分的一個問題在我們可不可以憑自己的對法令的理解去推翻行政處分好不好我知道這邊沒有辦法達成共識但是我覺得中華民國"},{"start":12360.549,"end":12387.435,"text":"立法行政就職的程序已經完備了那如果他不是立法委員的話就必須要有一個解職的程序來完成他才是立法委員我覺得委員說他有沒有信賴保護啊就我們這個例子李森修的例子沒有信賴保護的問題我們有做了很多法律的研究沒關係就千千種的計謀不就就這一個會救沒有因為只有他參選立委而已謝謝主任謝謝"},{"start":12390.704,"end":12409.564,"text":"好 謝謝 下一位我們邀請洪孟愷委員好 主席謝謝 麻煩請邱主委麻煩邱主委"},{"start":12416.11,"end":12439.858,"text":"國務委員好 各位 開宗明義我想過去這段時間看到不管是行政部門看到民進黨的委員真的對於我們一位陸配級的委員持續這樣子用不管是言語或是消極不配合的一個霸凌的一個手段其實全台灣的陸配大家也都看在眼裡我今天就事論事就法論法"},{"start":12441.098,"end":12464.516,"text":"能夠讓我們中華民國法令持續的往前走這才是應該要做的事情但如果說民進黨政府一味的用政治意識形態來操作像今天內政委員會我們上台我們開會到現在也有一些紛擾但還是一樣 主委你站上備詢台就應該要尊重立法委員的質詢的權益"},{"start":12466.357,"end":12489.558,"text":"所以我先開宗明義想請教我們到底現在台灣我們現在有多少陸配取得中華民國身份證取得我們定居的身份有14萬5千多人14萬5千多位陸配是有中華民國身份證是不是那其中有14萬多人那有哪一位可以放棄中國國籍的陸配"},{"start":12492.594,"end":12510.946,"text":"我們這些取得我們定居跟身份證的都是放棄中國大陸戶籍這個國籍的部分我們還是在了解你之前就已經受訪過了你坦承無人能夠完成放棄中國籍不是嗎所以現在我只想要確認一下這個標題是不是正確"},{"start":12514.908,"end":12533.009,"text":"就我們陸委會或是海基會的工作啊我們兩岸條例就只有處理戶籍的問題沒有處理國籍的問題對於陸配最了解的就是陸委會嘛是嘛那我只是想問是說你以前就已經受訪過就是說無人能夠完成放棄中國籍"},{"start":12534.551,"end":12551.327,"text":"那現在這個數字有沒有變化有沒有人因為說我們陸委會或說最近在紛紛擾擾然後讓陸配能夠去放棄中國籍有沒有跟委員報告放棄中國籍我覺得依照中國大陸國籍法的程序一句話"},{"start":12552.509,"end":12572.161,"text":"我們手上是沒有放棄成功的例子但是我們覺得陸培應該要努力去放棄如果他要參選公職再來沒關係你已經回答了再來陸委會有講說世界各國有一些國家憲法是不准國民放棄國際譬如說墨西哥阿根廷等等但是我們"},{"start":12574.577,"end":12600.927,"text":"在相關中華民國法令裡面我們有兩岸人民關係條例陸配可以參政最主要是為什麼是因為兩岸人民關係條例是我們規範在阿根廷墨西哥等這些國家他們有特殊的條例嗎在我們國家我們有沒有說在阿根廷啦墨西哥啦你們舉的例子有沒有什麼條例是可以讓他們說沒有辦法放棄國籍但他們可以有參政權"},{"start":12602.425,"end":12612.894,"text":"跟委員報告你指的這些不能放棄國家的這個國民如果規劃成為中華民國的國民的話他們就不能參政他們也不能參政嘛他們不能參政那為什麼陸配可以參政"},{"start":12617.838,"end":12644.256,"text":"陸配有兩岸人民關係條例來給予也是立法院三讀通過的法例我們陸配參政的這個條文在兩岸關係條例是第21條簡單講他要住滿10年他要住滿10年完整的身份轉換住滿10年剛剛我們的召委已經有質詢你你也沒有辦法有一些溯及既往部分你也沒有辦法回答"},{"start":12644.696,"end":12671.636,"text":"好那我再請教所以現在陸委會今天李貞秀委員她站上這個諮詢台她有中選會頒發的當選證書她在我們我國的大法官見證下宣誓就職那現在到底你們陸委會的認定李貞秀委員有沒有符合有沒有擁有我們中華民國的立法委員的資格跟委員報告"},{"start":12673.735,"end":12696.634,"text":"我們立委會當然我們尊重不是尊重啊我現在是要問你說你能認定我知道李征秀委員有沒有中華民國委員的資格沒有至少我認為我現在就是依照兩岸條例他沒有參選的資格他有參選資格你認為是說他沒有中華民國立法委員的資格來他沒有參選資格這一間辦公室這一間委員會叫內政委員會"},{"start":12701.658,"end":12724.234,"text":"我覺得如果說這樣的話 民進黨政府要不要先打一架內部先溝通一下陸委會 我剛剛已經問了 主委講是說李貞秀委員他目前陸委會認定 我們主委認定他沒有中華民國立法委員的資格可是中選會已經給他當選證書中選會也讓大法官來宣誓就職所以陸委會要不要出句公文給中選會要中選會取消他的資格"},{"start":12724.754,"end":12751.325,"text":"黃委員我們是就法論法就是就法論法啊所以我才想要問你們我們就是說它不符合兩岸條例的參選資格主委心平氣和我現在只想講是說那這樣子陸委會既然陸委會已經認定是說他沒有這個資格中選會把他認定那這樣就是陸委會跟中選會兩個互相在打架囉跟委員報告齁就在李貞秀女士啊她"},{"start":12753.506,"end":12760.569,"text":"所以什麼時候我們中選會我們陸委會要發出相關的公文陸委會什麼時候會發出相關的公文給中選會跟中選會講是說我們李貞秀委員她沒有中華民國立法委員的資格"},{"start":12774.575,"end":12794.816,"text":"他違反兩岸條例21條我們有去跟中選會我親自也去拜訪中選會當然我們也有給他們公文那新任的主委上任後我想我們也需要具備相關的這些事實證據提供給中選會對 很實在話講啦大家真的都在看"},{"start":12796.394,"end":12815.394,"text":"本席身為中華民國立法委員之一113席每一位都是民意代表我們面對的行政部門我們希望的是行政部門開大門走大路我們希望是行政部門依法行政我們希望是行政部門可以真真正正的了解主流民意"},{"start":12816.255,"end":12839.866,"text":"但是過去到現在我們看到民進黨政府依法三讀通過的法令不執行恣意的解釋法令還有到現在陸委會應該是站在兩岸人民關係條例因為陸委會存在一個很重要的位階就是因為兩岸人民關係條例才有陸委會的存在如果說都沒有辦法捍衛台灣跟中國大陸兩邊的關係"},{"start":12842.386,"end":12870.213,"text":"我覺得中華民國我們相對來講未來的憲政體制會越走越窄這一點是我給主委的一個忠告我們私下有很多場合有些時候都會碰到面但我必須要講的是站在這個主委的位置上面就應該要從一而終這才是真真正正為中華民國全體國人服務謝謝洪委員我們就是依法行政我們就匡正違法謝謝"},{"start":12878.51,"end":12900.943,"text":"好 謝謝 我們接下來請蔡春籌委員發言蔡春籌蔡春籌蔡春籌委員不在我們請劉淑冰委員發言劉淑冰 劉淑冰 劉淑冰不在我們請邱惠如委員發言邱惠如 邱惠如 邱惠如不在我們接下來請羅明才委員發言羅明才 羅明才 羅明才不在接下來請顏寬恒委員發言顏寬恒 顏寬恒 顏寬恒委員不在"},{"start":12905.385,"end":12933.793,"text":"我們接下來請王安祥委員發言 王安祥 王安祥 王安祥不在接下來請鄭振前委員發言 鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前不在我們接下來請吳啟明委員發言 吳啟明 吳啟明 吳啟明不在我們接下來請高津素梅委員發言 高津素梅 高津素梅 高津素梅不在接下來請丁學忠委員發言 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠不在後面沒了嗎"},{"start":12936.853,"end":12940.859,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場外 其餘均已發言完畢 詢問結束"},{"start":12942.694,"end":12971.343,"text":"委員吳祁銘、高進、宿美所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內書面回覆並複製本會討論事項審查台北市政府提出請願文書等9案均不成為一案並依立法院職權行事法第67條第二項之規定由程序委員會報請院會存查並通知請願人請問各位委員有意見"},{"start":12972.674,"end":12974.857,"text":"沒有,好本日會議到此結束,現在上會"}]}},{"id":"167757","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167757","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a087cf8b168dc61233e8ac6646e11c8ecc20d8b31dcd6c60559a766c9ad8cead35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:57:08 - 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我們有請顧部長請部長部長早部長我們今天所要審查的這個特別條例關乎到我們台灣未來多年的防衛韌性那尤其中共近來對台灣的這個威脅已經不僅僅是傳統的這個武力而是結合平時不斷升級的揮帶侵擾還有暫時的這種聯合火力打擊"},{"start":29.867,"end":47.06,"text":"面對如此嚴峻的挑戰我們必須要快速建構足以嚇阻共軍的一個戰力那相關的議題我們在先前也都討論過現在總算是可以進一步聚焦在條例本身的這個內容尤其針對三個版本的差異我想"},{"start":47.64,"end":73.995,"text":"再將我們防衛作戰的需求軍購的流程以及無人機的運用還有國防自主能力等方面請部長進一步來詳細跟國人說明那為什麼行政院八年1.25兆才是最符合國軍的一個需求版本首先我們在這個防空計畫上所要打造的這個台灣之盾也參考到其他國家的經驗"},{"start":74.855,"end":90.642,"text":"建構高中低分層的攔截火網其中很重要的也是院板當中有納入人工智慧與C5ISR系統這個項目那從報告內容來看即便我們籌獲到性能良好的這個飛彈"},{"start":91.863,"end":110.943,"text":"但是沒有一個大腦來連結和指揮一旦面對中共利用廉價的這種遠程飛彈火箭飛彈或是低成本的無人機搭配彈道飛彈進行飽和攻擊我們的防空效率恐怕也是存在疑慮"},{"start":112.574,"end":131.723,"text":"那我想先就這個部分請部長說明,院板所納入的AI輔助還有C5ISR系統,有什麼樣的一個必要性?如果缺少這個系統,對於我們在這個防空以及反登陸的國土防衛上,會有什麼樣的一個影響?"},{"start":133.538,"end":151.113,"text":"所以我們今天的專案報告確實用了比較大的偏乎因為我們是要說明這個整個防衛作戰需要的一個整體效能那這個特別您提到的CYSR跟AI輔助決策系統的這個部分"},{"start":153.175,"end":176.978,"text":"不管是在這個整體防空飛彈防禦的部分或者是聯合反登陸以及這個聯合國土防衛的部分他都要貫穿全場所以我們在希望就是說在這個整個作為一個大腦的這種概念那如果要能夠導入這個AI輔助跟CVS這個系統我們會獲得比這一種"},{"start":180.129,"end":197.285,"text":"傳統的人工作業或者是這樣子的一個類比式的資訊的傳遞要能夠更能夠有可能來建立一個完整的共同作戰圖像來加速擊殺戀在進行防衛作戰這個我覺得是非常重要的一塊好那"},{"start":198.252,"end":225.785,"text":"從先前這個俄烏戰爭到近期的這個美伊之間的衝突來看現在戰場對於這個無人載具的運用是重中之重那針對我們院版也編列了20多萬架的無人機以及1000多艘的這個無人艇的預算那有人認為說無人機的這個疊帶速度很快不應該一次買齊但是現在軍方精算出20萬架的這個數字我想"},{"start":226.985,"end":251.596,"text":"應當也有相當的一個依據那朝向建構這種地域景象所需的這個數量我想請教就是說這20萬架的無人機採購如何能夠落實所謂國防自主和非紅供應鏈的一個政策這是第一點第二點為什麼我們必須透過特別預算才能夠來帶動國內廠商投入產能研發而不是透過年度預算來編列"},{"start":252.856,"end":267.671,"text":"那第三如果這一筆這個項目最後沒有被納入對於我們戰力會不會有什麼影響會不會影響到各個這個作戰區預算在今年七月前所編程的這個無人機大隊我想"},{"start":268.832,"end":292.382,"text":"在俄烏戰爭甚至在這一次的美伊戰爭應該大家都看得很清楚就是說在新型態戰爭的情況之下呢快速建構這個無人載具的這樣的一個部隊戰力它的關鍵的重要性那之所以要編入特別預算裡面呢我們也有考慮到它的迭代創新"},{"start":293.522,"end":318.292,"text":"然後我們也要考慮到它科技的一個進展所以我們想的是說我們要透過推動無人採集的產業發展鏈來提升國防資本能力但同時我們也要考慮到這個無人機的快速發展所以我們一次不會說我們就去採購到20萬架我們一定是分批的然後我們每一次在分批的過程當中我們都會要求明年的採購"},{"start":320.133,"end":337.653,"text":"的規格是如何的後年的這個規格是如何但有一個最最最重要的一點是假如我假如我們排入年度預算那我們只能夠在年度預算可能編列個多少價但是我們現有的這個整個的產業鏈我們要看"},{"start":339.087,"end":363.509,"text":"他們要看的是一個長單這個長單要考慮到快速的迭代創新但是要考慮到我們讓他們知道我們國進的這個需求我們國進的需求可能我說實在的可能不只20萬家我們編入特別預算有20萬家我們是分期來規劃我們不斷的考慮到迭代創新但是我們要讓他們知道無人載具的一個發展"},{"start":363.749,"end":388.272,"text":"在國內一個最健全的產業供應鏈對我們的國防能力國防的自主能力國防的韌性是如何等的重要我們不可能期待說我們就用這個20萬架甚至說5萬架我們就能夠打一場這一個保雨防災作戰但是重點是我們要在戰時就如同烏克蘭一樣我們可以在我們的國內就能夠自主生產是"},{"start":389.261,"end":414.119,"text":"那我們要讓國內自主生產這個產業鏈要起來啊這個產業鏈如果他沒有辦法看到他一個長的一個單子他如何願意建立這樣子的一個產線進去投資還有現在這樣的迭代創新要跟世界各國甚至不是只有美國要跟世界的各國要來不斷的進行共同的研發共同的"},{"start":415.06,"end":436.479,"text":"技術合作轉移等等那他這些他也要看到未來他沒有看到未來他如何願意跑進來跟你做那這個就是無人機產業再來就是說打造一個飛鴻供應鏈降低這個整個資訊安全的威脅現在無人機的市場在商用市場上大家都可以看得出來最大的是誰"},{"start":438.151,"end":448.496,"text":"就是中國啊那我們現在要民主國家打造一個飛鴻工藝鏈那我們沒有一定的產業規模我們如果說按照現在的只有三千架他一架要賣多少錢"},{"start":449.977,"end":478.377,"text":"那他如何迭代創新他如何能夠引進技術我想這個這個都是我們編入特別預算的一個重要性那這個這樣子的我們如果能夠突破這樣子的一個預算額度的限制來快速增長戰力來快速增加我們的國防自主能力快速強化我們的防衛韌性快速的能夠不斷的進行迭代創新無人載具的關鍵性力量事實上在這兩次每一的衝突"},{"start":480.296,"end":495.447,"text":"烏鴉戰爭裡面都看得已經是非常非常清楚所以我們是很急切的期待朝野都能夠支持無人載具在我們的這個國軍在部門的需求上面能夠重視然後用特別預算來編列好 謝謝部長"},{"start":496.047,"end":517.997,"text":"其實無人載具在未來的戰爭當中應該就是很重要的一個攻擊的武器所以確實是對於在台灣守護我們國家安全上是一個非常重要的一個項目那守護國家的相關安全我們確實也不能打折也不能再拖延請國防部持續跟各黨團"},{"start":519.238,"end":536.177,"text":"做更好的一個溝通也讓我們全國的國人能夠了解到八年1.25兆的這個規劃是經過我們兩年以上的審慎研究也是與美方進行政府與政府之間的一個詳細的溝通符合敵情威脅的一個專業評估"},{"start":537.739,"end":559.315,"text":"那也都是我們防衛作戰所需的一個核心裝備我們的目標當然就是要讓共軍對台作戰的時間表能夠一再的往後甚至也讓敵人不敢輕舉妄動那我希望我們各位同仁一起來支持這一項的預算讓我們國防部能夠儘早來做一個更詳實的一個規劃好 以上 謝謝謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"17291","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17291","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d9cf9f4066bc87ed167ad8ab126936a2d44e0a145e6cc6f0f939745ee710f4f695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-03-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"「校園安全與受教權的平衡：從《國民轉介教育條例草案》看高風險學生安置機制之建立」公聽會（事由：「校園安全與受教權的平衡：從《國民轉介教育條例草案》看高風險學生安置機制之建立」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2026-03-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-03-23T08:31:35+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-23T11:40:00+08:00","duration":11305,"影片長度":"03:08:25","委員發言時間":"08:31:35 - 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公聽會首先先非常歡迎大家來參加我們這個公聽會那我們這個公聽會其實舉辦的目的是有一個"},{"start":1844.52,"end":1869.687,"text":"國民轉介教育條例簡稱安心上學法案我們希望能夠邀請大家針對這個法案來討論進一步的來建立校園安全那為什麼呢?因為大家都知道現在在學校裡面校園安全的問題層出不窮像今天我們也特別邀請到兩年前在土城"},{"start":1871.007,"end":1891.617,"text":"有一個國中國三生割喉案,不幸一個很優秀的學生被割喉,失去生命,很年輕又失去生命爸爸現在也在我們現場,等一下我會跟大家介紹那最主要就是因為大家都知道現在校園裡面為了因為很多學生的有些狀況那成為這個校園的威脅,但是"},{"start":1895.559,"end":1924.445,"text":"這些學生在現行的教育體制好像也不足以有辦法可以去處理我記得我小時候我們那時候三個大過就退學現在是在學校寄到10個大過20個大過都沒有關係依然留在原來的學校然後甚至於很多學生被寄很多大過還成為勳章那也不可能讓也不能強迫他轉學強迫轉學到另外一個學校又成為另外一個學校的問題那但是他又還沒有到"},{"start":1925.892,"end":1952.064,"text":"犯法的地步所以甚至帶刀幹什麼在學校裡面你也不能對他怎麼樣所以就存在一個教育體系跟少年司法體系的一個很明顯的銜接斷層那這個有很多的問題等一下再請大家一起來討論一下所以在這個脈絡底下到底我們要如何保障學生受教權跟維護校園安全應該要取得一個制度性的平衡"},{"start":1953.204,"end":1966.234,"text":"這也是我們當前教育政策不可以迴避的核心課題所以國民轉介教育條例草案的提出就是希望嘗試建構一套介於一般學校跟矯正體系之間的轉介教育"},{"start":1967.439,"end":1990.747,"text":"機制透過專業的評估分級儲育與跨體系的合作為高風險的學生提供一個適切的教制與輔導同時也為校園建立跟安全穩定的學習環境那我們這次討論就會以這個草案為核心進一步探討教育與司法體系之間的制度衍接跨機關的權責分工以及學生轉介與回歸制度的設計"},{"start":1991.767,"end":2011.718,"text":"其能在維護多數學生學期權益與保障高風險學生受教權之間尋求一個更周延且具可行性的制度解放我們今天的討論提綱總共有四項第一個是如何填補教育司法的灰色地帶中介教育與矯正學校功能區隔為何"},{"start":2012.478,"end":2038.582,"text":"第二個是少年關護所轉介後教育、社政與司法體系之間就高風險學生處遇中的權責分工與合作機制為何第三學生在轉介學校安置期滿後回歸原校後應有哪些後續追蹤輔導機制第四少年保護官的角色是否能成立關護署使少年與成人關護業務銜接另外是否"},{"start":2039.182,"end":2055.564,"text":"依犯罪性質與在犯風險設定不同犯罪的紀錄圖銷連線那我這邊普通說明一下就是有關於轉介教育法案就是俗稱的安心上學法案它的基本的運作是針對有一些學校"},{"start":2056.479,"end":2082.538,"text":"比如說是已經有些學生他已經很明顯的威脅到其他師生的安全了但是他還沒有到司法體系可以管的地步那怎麼辦我們希望能夠透過一個專家專家會議評估如果他真的留在原來的學校對他本身他還是持續的不適應而且對老師跟學生其他的老師跟學生可能會造成生命安全的威脅"},{"start":2083.439,"end":2098.494,"text":"那應該要有一個機制把它轉到由政府設立的專屬學校那這個學校要投入更多的輔導資源以及社工資源而不是把這些學生轉到另外一個學校因為轉到另外學校就造成另外學校問題是"},{"start":2100.075,"end":2116.041,"text":"轉到一個專屬的學校由教育部來設立然後希望透過這種方式一方面讓這些高風險學生可以得到專屬的照顧可以得到更多的資源另一方面可以讓原來的學校的師生可以得到喘息達到雙贏的地步"},{"start":2119.082,"end":2141.762,"text":"那這是這個法案安心上學法案的核心那今天就麻煩大家可以表達意見好那我先來介紹在場的委員現在在場的沒有委員在然後我們來介紹專家學者我們就按照簽到的順序來介紹第一位是國教行動聯盟王漢陽理事長"},{"start":2145.253,"end":2158.574,"text":"然後第二位私立弗瑞斯特高級中選附設國中部的鄧文南校長歡迎校長還有彰化縣學生輔導諮商中心方惠生主任"},{"start":2160.476,"end":2189.247,"text":"歡迎主任社團法人中華民國諮商心理師公會全國聯合會吳竹鈞副秘書長歡迎還有新北市學生輔導諮商中心許替榮學校社工師督導歡迎再來是我們就是我們的楊爸他今天是以新北市立清水高級中學家長代表楊江某楊爸謝謝"},{"start":2191.055,"end":2200.471,"text":"然後民傳大學犯罪防治學系林舒立助理教授歡迎您全國家長會長聯盟陶蓮生理事長"},{"start":2202.046,"end":2228.795,"text":"歡迎您全國教師公會總聯合會林立廷研究員歡迎您國立中正大學犯罪防治學系林明傑教授歡迎您國立中正大學師資培育中心連啟順副教授還有仁本三重青少年基地肖一貞館長歡迎 歡迎您"},{"start":2232.814,"end":2259.942,"text":"然後接下來我們來介紹在場的政府機關代表第一位是我們教育部政務次長張廖萬堅次長然後司法院少年級家事廳廳長鍾忠林法務部參事汪南君 歡迎還有內政部警政署刑事警察局主任張文元"},{"start":2261.209,"end":2287.671,"text":"好謝謝主任衛生福利部保護服務司副司長張靖倫勞動部勞動力發展署身心障礙者及特定對象就業主專門委員王立文好歡迎大家然後其餘熱烈席的機關代表請參閱名單就不在主一介紹並列入公報紀錄那"},{"start":2290.513,"end":2315.087,"text":"進行一下程序說明 為了讓大家能夠順利的表達意見 我們做如下處理第一個 每位發言時間為七分鐘在第六分鐘時 我們會有鈴聲提醒七分鐘結束時 會有一個結束鈴聲然後第二個 學者專家發言順序 以先到先後順序為準現場發言及書面資料 立法院會做成記錄刊登公報"},{"start":2316.519,"end":2330.814,"text":"三 本院委員盧耀發言請於上午10點前至主席台登記我們會在會議中穿插安排並依登記順序發言那現在先請教育部張廖萬堅政務次長就現行規定執行狀況相關問題提出說明時間7分鐘 歡迎林次長"},{"start":2339.711,"end":2353.844,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好本市受邀列席貴委員會公聽會那麼緊究校園安全與受教權的平衡從國民轉介教育條例草案看高風險學生安置機制之建立的討論提綱來提出報告"},{"start":2355.353,"end":2369.661,"text":"那麼少年事件處理法以下簡稱少事法是在一百零八年大幅修正落實兒童權利公約強調行政先行與去標籤化那麼學校在得知少年有偏差行為時應主動提供輔導資源召開評估會議"},{"start":2372.623,"end":2388.009,"text":"依少年個別需求來訂定輔導計畫那麼有關討論提供一有關如何填補教育司法的灰色地帶中階教育與矯正學校的功能區隔何在那個說明如下在預防機制下"},{"start":2388.709,"end":2403.477,"text":"上本部呢以督導各級學校建立三級輔導制度針對高關懷適應困難或有偏差行為的學生那麼依學生需求提供相關的輔導措施並逐年增加專任輔導教師及專任專業輔導人員的配置那麼國民中小學專任輔導教師預計自114學年度起"},{"start":2411.721,"end":2439.8,"text":"再增加2592人那麼專任專業輔導人員預計再增加213位那麼提供學校所需的人力執行輔導工作也同步協助地方政府強化學校學務輔導及校園安全人力那麼於114年4月15號呢已經補助國民中學政治學務人力那麼可政治學務人力或設置副組長呢把共計增設了633人"},{"start":2441.942,"end":2457.963,"text":"同時各縣市也設有慈輝班、資源市與合作市中途班等多元輔導教育措施來協助中錯、負學或不適應一般課程的學生建立學習動機以及生活的適應能力那麼另外對於紹觀"},{"start":2459.685,"end":2476.964,"text":"少年關護所的學生本部自113年起推動過渡性教育措施作為重要的銜接機制主要針對有危害他人生命身體經聯繫會議評估有漸進式返校需求在其返校前提供"},{"start":2478.225,"end":2489.069,"text":"約一至兩個月的短期輔導與生活重建透過專責人員的陪伴協助其心理調適與行為的穩定降低直接回歸學校可能帶來的衝擊"},{"start":2490.612,"end":2510.932,"text":"那麼對於依少事法裁定保護處分的中途學校是屬於教育體系主要功能是安置與輔導對象多為需要保護或輔導的少年而矯正學校是屬於司法體系那麼針對法院裁定需接受感化教育的少年強調紀律管理行為"},{"start":2511.733,"end":2529.399,"text":"那麼上面兩所學校的在法源對象及管理強度上呢就有明確的區隔整體而言依少年偏差行為的程度來提供相應的處遇並透過據法源依據之強制力與專業矯正機制促其行為與價值觀能夠正向轉變那麼有關提綱二"},{"start":2533.8,"end":2557.017,"text":"少關所轉介後教育、社政與司法體系間就高風險學生處遇中的權責分工與合作機制為何說明如下少年離開少關所後有繼續就學需求者教育單位與各體系分工與合作機制首先在通報機制上呢少年進出關戶所時會及時通知原就讀學校"},{"start":2560.061,"end":2579.7,"text":"確保資訊的銜接那麼學生出所前也會由司法系統認為有必要時或由學校認為有介入性輔導或處理性輔導及接受過渡性教育措施之需求時會召開個案會議並視個案需求邀請設正司法"},{"start":2580.819,"end":2601.751,"text":"相關人員來與會若經評估有危害他人生命身體經聯繫會議評估有漸進式返校需求者會進入過渡性教育措施那麼期程是以一個月為基準那不超過兩個月為限服務期間都會搭配專責輔導人員全程陪同學生透過輔導來"},{"start":2604.332,"end":2619.912,"text":"做这个辅导官会的陪伴那么有关提纲三学生在转介学校安置期满后回归原校后应有哪些后续最终的辅导机制那么说明如下学生离开安置辅导机构或感化教育处所"},{"start":2620.413,"end":2635.723,"text":"安置輔導機構或感化教育機構應該召開轉嫌及輔學輔導會議定定離開機構後之轉嫌及輔學教育計畫那麼以建立學生轉嫌出校之相關輔導儲育及生涯規劃"},{"start":2636.944,"end":2651.52,"text":"副學後學校因適學生需求召開個案輔導會議並建立學生穩定就學預警機制依學生需求引進跨網絡資源以協助學生穩定就學另外"},{"start":2652.06,"end":2666.726,"text":"學校如果接獲學生有偏差行為之通知時,可依實際需求,結合地方政府、政府會的資源,評估其所需的資源及服務措施,進行轉嫌及後續的追蹤與管理。"},{"start":2667.466,"end":2686.148,"text":"而衛福部會針對矯正學校少年從入校起就有專責社工來提供家庭支持輔導並於離校後追蹤一年那麼學校可依學生狀況需求與逆境社工來共同合作幫助學生回歸正軌的生活"},{"start":2687.045,"end":2714.664,"text":"那麼提綱4有關少年保護官之角色是否應成立關護署使少年與成人關護業務連接另外是否依犯罪性質與在犯風險設定不同犯罪紀錄圖銷連線那麼說明如下當少年涉及司法保護案件時可加強少年保護官與學校相關輔導或行政人員共同合作機制以促進少年之穩定就學與正向發展"},{"start":2715.484,"end":2740.374,"text":"有關少年保護官的角色是否應成立關戶署本部持開放並尊重司法院的權責另外少年犯罪紀錄突銷棄屬少事法規定本部也尊重司法院的權責那麼縱觀少年的偏差行為背後原因複雜單靠學校或單一體系難以解決教育部未來會持續加強三級輔導結合教育、社政、司法的力量"},{"start":2740.834,"end":2769.457,"text":"在守護校園安全的同時 也接觸每一位學生以上報告 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在補充介紹專家學者台灣雲林地方法院謝家仁主任保護官好 歡迎您好 那剛剛我們次長 次長已經說明完畢了請問其他機關代表有沒有補充說明有沒有司法院有嗎"},{"start":2771.698,"end":2787.347,"text":"還有法務部有沒有有是不是司法院沒有嘛那請法務部光南軍參事司法院有嗎那我先請司法院請司法院中中林廳長說明時間三分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2800.622,"end":2820.872,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進學者大家好這個謝謝今天的公聽會對於校園安全以及這個受教權的平衡那麼跟少年法庭少年司法的一個連結重要性非常的重要請代表司法院報告"},{"start":2821.792,"end":2840.077,"text":"那首先呢第一大點就是少年經收容在少關手以後如果後續要出少關手有關教育、社政、司法體系如何在這邊做一個分工那目前是採取四個一個層次的步驟"},{"start":2842.998,"end":2863.295,"text":"依照少年的高風險危險性包括持續暴力行為影響生命安全第二在學校一再造成霸凌行為造成學生的受教訓受影響老師的教育行為受影響第三類就是攜帶危險器械"},{"start":2863.976,"end":2877.161,"text":"常常在做一些所謂危害這個生命安全行為這三類司法院在少年法庭要把少年責負就是從少官所轉介出來的時候第一個依照我們的少司法規定42條第5項我們召開這個所謂的資源整合跟協商分配會議"},{"start":2889.986,"end":2902.314,"text":"那麼這就包括學校社會局警政還有社政等來做一個安全計畫那目前統計114年有109次這樣的一個高風險的一個統計的一個規劃一個進行那麼其中有高達21位是不能到學校要裁定到過渡性中途學校"},{"start":2917.723,"end":2932.729,"text":"這是第一部分那同時如果採取第二類型的就是所謂的交屋觀察六個月也是整合資源第三個就是依照這個連續辦法建立縣市政府跟少年法庭法院之間的資源整合第二部分是攸關轉介服務期滿前有哪些輔導機制"},{"start":2944.574,"end":2959.972,"text":"那跟依照兒少福權法第68條規定少年法庭會跟直轄市縣市政府相關機關跟學校做這個轉弦會議然後來做這樣密切的一個輔導的一個資源分配"},{"start":2960.993,"end":2979.951,"text":"那第三有關這個少年保護官人員不足那輔導效能也有相當的需要精進是不是成立關務署那本院研究的結果是依照國內實際的運作跟國際公約就是所謂利雅德"},{"start":2981.573,"end":2986.475,"text":"還有希拉希認為他整個雙雙向的一個規範是不一樣的那所以認為應該強化保護措施而不是關乎的一個社區處理最後一個就是攸關"},{"start":3000.302,"end":3026.112,"text":"貴委員會詢問有關這個塗銷前案是不是應該要分輕重本院已經研擬出一個四個層次的一個方案也就是說情節最輕微的然後其次是反覆實施的第三危害安全的第四是重大社會事件這四類那麼觀察起不同"},{"start":3027.953,"end":3041.909,"text":"輔導條件其不同最後還納入要有審核的方案以上報告就交給各位 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請保護部汪南君參事記住說明時間3分鐘"},{"start":3047.714,"end":3066.14,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席貴委員會校園安全與授教權的平衡從國民轉介教育條例草案看高風險學生安置機制的建立公聽會請代表法務部列席並提出書面資料進行指教"},{"start":3067.219,"end":3089.865,"text":"鉴于本次公听会讨论的提纲面向广泛仅就与本部全责业务相关的提纲内容说明如下首先说明矫正学校的功能少年矫正学校的功能是为使少年受刑人及感化教育受处分人经由学校教育矫正不良习性促其改过自新适应社会生活"},{"start":3090.825,"end":3112.205,"text":"本部矫正署所属的少年矫正学校目前有三所收容感化教育受处分人分别是敦品中学、城镇中学以及立志中学这三所学校是属于技术型的高中那另外一所是明阳中学是收容少年受刑人这个是属于综合型的高中"},{"start":3113.366,"end":3136.004,"text":"至于少年关护所转介后的教育、社政与司法体系之间就高风险学生处于中的全责分工与合作机制目前的机制与分工是少年关护所是会在少年入所三日内用电话传真或者是其他方式通知原就读学校而且要以密件"},{"start":3136.584,"end":3153.765,"text":"含之原就读学校以及当地教育主管机关以及少年法院或少年法庭那另外接获少年法院出所裁定之后也要尽速的通知原就读学校还有当地的教育主管机关以及少年法庭少年法院"},{"start":3155.286,"end":3175.515,"text":"並且要配合少年法院辦理後續轉介相關的協助事宜那至於是不是要成立關護署使少年保護官的角色跟成年業務連接本部的意見如下成立關護專責機構是具有必要性的因為保護處分包含訓誡假日生活輔導"},{"start":3176.175,"end":3202.651,"text":"保护管束劳动服务安置处分安置辅导感化教育境界还有实施治疗这些处分都有处于的连贯性是不合适用少年犯罪时的年龄区隔执行机关由专责关乎机关提供连续性的监督辅导措施会比较适合而且如果成立专责关乎机构可以统合行政部门的资源及早介入儿少犯罪的防治"},{"start":3204.056,"end":3229.577,"text":"第二成立關護署對於國家未來發展是具有重要性的因為目前少年跟成人關護是分屬司法跟行政不同部門衍生處罰少年可能同時需要向少年保護官以及成年關護人報到而且少年保護管束滿23歲的時候需要由檢察官重新指揮地檢署的關護人執行這樣會增加個案的負擔也容易造成輔導計劃的中斷"},{"start":3231.098,"end":3243.642,"text":"那成立關護署是可以避免保護資源耗費全面掌握個案的成長背景以及犯罪歷程統一事權並提升服務能量有效調度關護的人力而且專責保護部門是符合國際趨勢的"},{"start":3246.363,"end":3268.593,"text":"那至于这个犯罪性质与再犯风险的设定是不是要不同的犯罪记录图销年限这个是涉及少年隐私保护以及公共利益的横评那少事法是司法院的主管法规本部尊重司法院的权责并且会适时的提供法治意见那以上的报告就敬请主席及各位委员女士先生指教谢谢"},{"start":3270.031,"end":3296.518,"text":"好 謝謝法務部那在這邊詢問請問其餘有提出書面報告機關除了書面之外有沒有口頭補充好 沒有那如果沒有的話機關代表報告完畢相關書面資料請各位參閱並列入公報記錄好 那接下來我們要請專家學者發言第一位我們請王漢陽國教行動聯盟理事長發言"},{"start":3300.765,"end":3324.67,"text":"時間7分鐘主席 委員 還有所謂的我們次長還有所有的一些長官 大家好首先國教盟關心這個戈井案一直到現在所謂的一些過渡性教育措施還有相關的問題一直在提出來目前現在"},{"start":3325.87,"end":3346.497,"text":"葉文之委員提出來的一個國民教育轉介條例的一個立法方向我們是支持的因為目前現在沒有真的沒有在討論這件事情而只有委員有在討論這件事情但這個草案當中我要提出來說有幾個地方我們還是覺得還是有一些需要修正的地方讓大家知道國家盟從2014年"},{"start":3347.998,"end":3375.299,"text":"一月份開始就在告訴大家中介教育還有包含說三級儲育還有相關的一些問題那這個其實我們的重點就是第一個校園安全是不能再等的第二個孩子的輔導也不能斷第三個家庭的支持不能少這是我們今天講的這三點的重點首先第一點我想要跟各位說的一點就是在於說過動性教育作師為何失靈第一個是"},{"start":3375.999,"end":3393.05,"text":"國民教育轉介條例其實它是過渡性教育措施的教育版本那目前現在過渡性教育從其實你說有沒有這方面的條例呢有其實少年事件處理法2019年修法之後就有過渡性教育措施應該要去做它要做什麼"},{"start":3393.59,"end":3418.17,"text":"行為偏差的觸法的有危險疑慮的這叫行政輔導先行的配套但是有沒有做延宕了4.5年2024年開始去做為什麼因為其實這主要的問題在於司法部司法院的部分跟教育部中間其實有一些溝通上面的一個問題那到底誰了解過渡性教育措施沒有人了解"},{"start":3418.55,"end":3444.87,"text":"所以教育部当中他是配合司法院当中去做这个所谓的过渡性教育措施我们刚刚在讲了行为偏差处罚有危险疑虑的要在这个过渡性教育措施是当时的配套而不是现行提出来的所以业人之版本提出来的一个教育部分的一个过渡性教育措施其实就是少事法当中的一个强化的一个版本在这个当中去讨论所以让大家知道"},{"start":3445.59,"end":3465.635,"text":"那我有四個司法當中的第一個問題就是現階段過渡性交易措施為何失靈因為沒有進入司法的會被排除第二個危害身體安全的門檻太高了再來跨整個機關的協調有很大的問題再來最後是誰再去決定過渡性交易措施就是法官"},{"start":3466.155,"end":3474.941,"text":"那法官不決定這個教育過渡率教育措施的時候怎麼做一年教育部編了2992萬合定的經費編了1億的預算最後只有接了12到24個人2025年21個人2024年24個人那我們試問一件事情編了這麼多為何做的那麼少"},{"start":3489.011,"end":3508.104,"text":"因為決定權在少年法官的身上去決定有沒有要做過為不遵義教育措施違背了2019年當中行政普老先行當中應該要講到的一個事情所以沒有綜合去談第二件事情戈景安的黑箱責任到現在我們都知道少年保護官非常重要"},{"start":3508.484,"end":3531.318,"text":"我們也積極促使說少年保護官人力增加但是少年保護官要服從法官的監督在少事法第42條當中其實就講到說少年法官得開這個聯繫會議不是因也就是說少年保護官可以決定要不要開這個聯繫會議所以其實所有的權益我們都越來越清楚知道在誰身上"},{"start":3531.878,"end":3551.81,"text":"少年法官跟司法院的身上所以到現在喔司法院也沒有公布少年保護官現在到底這個案件的情形讓楊爸坐在下面完全不知道這些保護的情形是如何懲處了沒調查了沒那如果以法官法第30條來看那為什麼這件事情不能被評鑑"},{"start":3552.811,"end":3570.343,"text":"那我個人跟各位講權力太大了所以其實沒有任何人能檢討這件事情這才是最嚴重的一個狀況國際經驗告訴我們香港、英國、德國、日本很多案例我就不再轉述我們書面報告有講都應該要調整很多的一些做法"},{"start":3570.663,"end":3599.097,"text":"那國際之先優點的部分我們就應該來去參考在這個所謂的國民教育轉介條例當中我們講方向可以去考慮但是內容其實要去做一些什麼深度的調整參考國際經驗的調整最後我們幾個草案的建議第一件事情輔導無效在這個條例當中到底什麼叫輔導無效我跟各位報告現在在校園當中這種處罰的少年一年有一萬多件輔導會不會無效"},{"start":3600.458,"end":3615.584,"text":"有什麼樣無效要飲的無效因為你很難吶再來霸凌的無效有幫派的你也處理不了這些東西你靠輔導怎麼去處理那你很快會定義輔導無效真的因為沒有辦法解決輔導也沒辦法"},{"start":3617.004,"end":3644.471,"text":"那這個第三級的輔導和跨專業的評估就需要去評估有沒有風險嘛而不是我們去用輔導去判斷有沒有風險這是錯的第二件事情審議會當中其實要納入的代表性我覺得可以去納入心理師社工律師青少年家長代表等等要去考量第十一條當中一年化其實會有一個僵化的問題少年其實在這個審議學校當中有些制度是應該是彈性審查"},{"start":3646.571,"end":3672.346,"text":"你隨時不是綁著一年他就在一年不是綁著一個月他就一個月或者說一個月太長太短了你又要重複再去做這件事這些要有一個彈性還有審查的機制那這個草案當中有三個我覺得可以去介入的第一個是家庭介入目前沒有提到的是家庭處遇的部分和家庭介入的部分要納入去考量第二個就是返校追蹤的部分到底有沒有辦法持續"},{"start":3672.686,"end":3693.432,"text":"去做追蹤第三跨部門的一個協調參考英國的制度YOT的制度那我們希望是從2019年開始行政輔導先行的上司把大幅修法的時候我們強調一個社工就是要有辦法能去跟著這個孩子而不現在很多狀況都是什麼好多社工來去輔導"},{"start":3694.272,"end":3710.148,"text":"那所以其實每一個在跨處理這方面的孩子的時候你叫他怎麼去處理怎麼去面對這件事情再來關鍵者的數據不管專輔人員要補或者社工流動率效率暴力事件各方面甚至再犯率其實這個都是一個很大的一個關鍵最後"},{"start":3711.289,"end":3739.005,"text":"我們在時間不多我們在提到少年保護官跟調查官為什麼要知道第一個現在權責都在我們的司法院跟少年法官身上少年保護官跟少年調查官也在他身上檢調是應該分離的現在檢調是合在一起保護也合在一起你說保護就是保護你說調查就是多少你說檢查就是檢查這件事情在社會當中沒有辦法得到一個公平啊所以其實在這個制度當中必須要去做一個檢討"},{"start":3740.486,"end":3757.823,"text":"如何去分離跟有效的確定甚至能被做監督否則現行制度之下少年事件保護法這個特別的形式當中的辦法當中沒有辦法被大家去做檢核現在只是一個哥錦安的案件事實上"},{"start":3758.103,"end":3779.398,"text":"不只是這些案件但沒有人能去做檢討沒有人能去做改進這是我們幾個簡單的報告最後我們不反對轉介但是轉介的配套也應該在這當中去納入做考量謝謝大家謝謝理事長那接下來請鄧文南校長發言"},{"start":3791.564,"end":3818.757,"text":"主席各位委員各位長官各位女士先生大家好很高興能夠來參加這個公聽會並且在這裡發言非常感謝我們提案的委員可以把校園裡面當前很重要很棘手這個問題提出來做討論非常感謝身為一個退休校長我覺得看到這個草案的時候其實我有很多的感觸"},{"start":3820.151,"end":3841.26,"text":"那说实在话我想从校园的几个问题来谈这件事情第一个是其实学校里面有很大的困境面对这样子的学生的部分其实我们一方面想要的是让每一个学生的社会教权都能够得到"},{"start":3841.96,"end":3854.429,"text":"能夠好好的教育能夠讓每個學生好好的學習但是我們也希望校園是一個友善的校園可是事實上不是如此那有關學校裡面其實有些限制"},{"start":3855.819,"end":3881.713,"text":"其實阻礙了整個友善校園的一個發展跟校園倫理的部分那第一個當然從輔導人力跟學務人力來講非常感謝我們國教署其實提供了學校這幾年提供了非常多的專業輔導人力跟學務人力來做協助可是就實際上經營的部分來講其實有個問題叫做制度問題"},{"start":3883.735,"end":3901.25,"text":"就是其實比如說我們這次裡面提到的帶武器帶到學校裡面來的這樣狀況其實學校並沒有太多的權利可以做直接的安全檢查甚至在處理學生"},{"start":3904.638,"end":3920.847,"text":"違規事件的時候其實也受到了動不動就受到校事會議的一個規範那在目前最嚴重的狀況是最影響老師的士氣就是校事會議開不完"},{"start":3922.731,"end":3941.248,"text":"其實這是一個澄清的機制但是當老師面對這樣子的澄清的時候其實這樣會議的處理的時候其實是很傷士氣的部分這是一個第二個部分是在現今的學生問題已經並非只有教育單一個問題可以解決了"},{"start":3943.13,"end":3959.481,"text":"很多是在過去我們也都警政、社政都能夠介入但現在司法的介入其實是非常重要的在學生輔導的部分其實有一部分我們也發現"},{"start":3960.982,"end":3990.263,"text":"當我們在輔導需要到保護官的時候其實我們也都非常仰賴保護官的一個功能但也許是業務太繁忙也許是個人特質其實我們發現學生輔導的成敗這些特殊學生的輔導的成敗有一個部分是要關係著就是保護官的功能這個部分"},{"start":3991.141,"end":4012.268,"text":"那另外其實在接下來我想要講到一個最基本的問題其實是家庭問題多數的學生問題背後其實有一個施工能家庭這是最難解決的問題我曾經擔任過慈輝學校我在平溪工作五年"},{"start":4015.011,"end":4042.933,"text":"平溪慈輝其實慈輝學校其實就是一個因家庭失功能而導致有中錯之餘這樣子以家庭失功能為條件的學校企圖以學校來替代家庭的功能那我們那時候最怕的一件事我們常常的一個口號叫做520520不是我愛你520是五天住在學校學生都OK"},{"start":4043.914,"end":4069.108,"text":"但是回到家里两天就归零这强调的其实是一个无奈的是一个家庭功能的问题现行的学生问题里面其实很多家长是无能为力的这是一种他是没有能力的他是需要帮忙的第二个部分是有些家长是置之不理的就像中错问题一样"},{"start":4070.319,"end":4076.135,"text":"我們其實開了單但是對這些家長的罰款一樣不痛不癢"},{"start":4077.338,"end":4100.986,"text":"那最大的問題就是解決這個家長沒辦法配合所以有時候這會是學校比較面臨的困境那麼再來的話就是轉介教育的部分其實我們也有些擔心轉介教育如果學生進到這樣子的是一個很好的想法但是我們也怕學生進到這樣轉介教育之後回不來"},{"start":4102.227,"end":4116.706,"text":"回不来这是我们比较担心被标签这样子的一个问题那以现行的体制来讲说实在话我觉得很多的设计其实是OK的"},{"start":4117.307,"end":4138.341,"text":"但是在执行的时候并没有被彻底的执行反而在这个条例里面其实我觉得转介教育的部分如果我们在整个辅导的过程整个保护官教育跟司法的之间能够得到一个好的合作的话其实有时候我也觉得从我的角度来看"},{"start":4140.682,"end":4166.514,"text":"這個矯正這個轉介的教育有時候是跌床加屋而且難度之高因為他必須要同時要具備教育還有矯正這兩種功能說實在話非常的困難以上報告謝謝然後接下來我們請方惠生主任"},{"start":4180.567,"end":4199.527,"text":"主席 各位先進 各位夥伴 大家早安我是彰化縣之前的主任 房惠生很高興今天有這樣一個機會來參加這個公認會表示這個問題的重要性所以就算現在我本來有事情 但我還是會參加"},{"start":4200.928,"end":4215.339,"text":"那這是我的簡歷那跟這個議題比較有關是因為我的學習裡面有這一塊是我的博碩論文然後另外一個部分是我也擔任過教校還有中碩輔導清單號的訪視委員然後在彰化縣市執行矯正"},{"start":4220.043,"end":4234.825,"text":"教政署立制中學的輔導強化計畫還有我們中初入學的評估清單號還有過渡性教育措施等等那現在是我們少數法列追的學者專家那因為"},{"start":4237.386,"end":4256.502,"text":"我們今天要討論的是一群迷途的孩子其實站在輔導諮商的立場我們看到他們是爹不疼娘不愛家裡沒有辦法管他們不喜歡上學會到處惹是生非學校也管他管不住所以他們行為可能即將觸法又"},{"start":4257.202,"end":4273.177,"text":"有可能是已經觸發而且再犯率很高我們擔心的是他們已經沒有辦法容於現在的家庭和學校所以可能他有會接觸到不良的成人或場所當他們正在快速的墜落的時候是誰願意接觸他們"},{"start":4274.398,"end":4294.585,"text":"其實我在福祉中心20年其實我有一個很深刻的感覺今天我們關心孩子孩子將來才會懂得關心別人今天如果我們放棄了孩子將來孩子會放棄整個社會所以其實今天為什麼這麼重要討論這樣的議題因為我們要接觸這樣的孩子"},{"start":4296.359,"end":4320.359,"text":"討論提綱我就不再贅述但是我今天會用經驗的部分來做一個分享然後回應至少前面三個主題那我們一直在校園裡面從事輔導的工作在教育單位會講說叫做高關懷學生大概有這十大類那我們會focus更"},{"start":4321.76,"end":4336.613,"text":"嚴重的 比如講說高危險的這一群 大概可能有比如講說觸法行為 因為他跟很多孩子不容易相處 他可能也不太能夠在這個教育環境裡面 所以他可能有中錯"},{"start":4337.433,"end":4359.979,"text":"至于偏差行为还有物质弹力等等这些问题可能比较涉及是在法的问题个人的部分他可能就是我们现在在辅导的一个大宗那家庭的部分像高风险脆弱家庭保护保护性的个案还有未成年照顾者都是很重要的议题但是我们今天讨论的孩子可能"},{"start":4361.099,"end":4385.128,"text":"重整的十大類 它其實都是都有潛在的一些困難的地方那有一個部分要跟大家講的就是說中介教育裡面的對象跟目的跟我們講的這群高風險的孩子安置的需求其實是很不一樣的原本中介教育如同我在講說 它其實是剛上也提過了 就是它是"},{"start":4385.848,"end":4403.076,"text":"家庭失功能之後然後他有一些學校適應的問題但是他在這個過程裡面我們鼓勵的是他要復學然後跟他的學校去做接軌所以最主要有就是高關懷的課程 詞彙班 中途班等等"},{"start":4403.976,"end":4429.106,"text":"但是如果到了矯正機構的話他其實是因為他處罰所以最重要的切結點在有無處罰這件事所以今天其實有一塊可能也要去多去在這個地方也許在立法的過程裡面要再去討論的就是怎麼樣子讓這個約束力可以在未來的這個過程裡面他們能夠有更好的一個去"},{"start":4431.987,"end":4450.352,"text":"這個約束不是要去處罰他更重要是能夠在一個安全的情況底下讓他能夠有重新的學習那目前可以安置的環境基本上是量能不足然後彈性跟約束率其實是我們在這個過程裡面可能需要再多去討論的"},{"start":4452.116,"end":4475.811,"text":"那還有哪些是建構的方向其實重要的我從幾個部分來跟大家稍微講我們現行的狀況那如果以少年事件處理法來講其實就是我框起來的紅色這一個部分是我們很關注的一個部分所以前面有一大段其實是跟司法就是整個少年法庭的一個審理的過程其實有關"},{"start":4476.491,"end":4491.297,"text":"跟調保官還有我們在這過程怎麼去做一個討論連結評估很有關係那接下來這個部分是我們的肇事法之後以縣市政府來做一個推推展我們其實有做了這些努力"},{"start":4493.135,"end":4518.829,"text":"裡面比較重要的地方是如果在彰化縣我們有一個列綴會議基本上我們連我們的部縣長他就是也會比較重大需要系統連結的那個個案其實都會以後來加以主持然後我們希望是把系統的力量給給把它給統整起來你會看到後面假設他有"},{"start":4519.509,"end":4533.227,"text":"偏差行為會走學校的這個部分然後漸漸的曝顯行為觸發行為然後把系統給拉進來那整個重點都是在那個列綴會議的一個控管"},{"start":4534.281,"end":4549.816,"text":"那剛剛也有提到就是過渡性教育措施其實我們也執行了大概兩年多那我覺得我們裡面一個很重要的部分是因為我們會透過跟少年法庭還有調保官的合作然後透過一個"},{"start":4551.377,"end":4575.265,"text":"要不要進入這個會議的一個討論然後把右手邊會看到了很多的資源的系統把它南瓜進來然後再去討論哪樣的課程是適合這樣的一個孩子然後進行大概至少一個月然後漸進式的後面還有一個評估會議看他是不是適合返回學校"},{"start":4575.785,"end":4600.794,"text":"但是其實實施了兩年基本上有成功也有不成功的地方其實很重要的就是會跟後面這幾個部分很有相關第一個就是轉介的機制跟系統的連結有沒有能夠搭起來主管機關應該負起很重要的一個責任把所有的資源給整合在一起第二個是剛剛講的評估第三個是裡面很重要的一個計畫的執行"},{"start":4603.095,"end":4625.963,"text":"那也有一些例外的一個處遇那最後這邊讓大家稍微看一下其實重點有一個部分就是法的約束力然後我們希望在這個過程裡面能夠提供一個給孩子一個能夠有自我效能而且能夠有被接納的一種回歸方式不是只有一個煙火而已以上"},{"start":4636.54,"end":4650.258,"text":"好 谢谢那接下来我们请新北市学生辅导智商中心社公司对不起是智商心理师公会全员会副秘书长吴足军发言 谢谢谢谢主席各位委员"},{"start":4652.219,"end":4667.755,"text":"各位與會者長官還有來賓各位專家們大家早安我代表諮商心理師公會全國聯合會來這邊發言然後我自己本身也是諮商心理師平常是不同矯正機構的合作諮商心理師"},{"start":4670.151,"end":4690.003,"text":"那這個提竿我也就先不贅述了那對於這個草案提到的轉接教育呢我們認為這個需要很審慎的去研議不論是現有的制度還是新的制度從資產心理師全聯會的角度是期待可以跨機構跨系統的合作"},{"start":4690.723,"end":4707.131,"text":"然后以及连结要整个更加的缜密以及完整要做很缜密的评估安排然后要有计划以及完整的去执行这些连结要完善所以针对提纲的前三点我们尝试提出六点做说明"},{"start":4709.588,"end":4735.398,"text":"首先第一個是風險評估指標的建立對於這些評估呢不能就是依靠愛心熱誠然後相信這個人性改變的這種希望感來評估風險需要有實證研究根據的然後可以跨場域使用的有系統觀的並且是很客觀的這一些指標去做評估才能夠把教育還有安全兼具"},{"start":4736.877,"end":4758.991,"text":"再來是要落實網絡的轉型會議這是無法依靠單一機構或者是單一專業去解決困境的沒有魔法機構或一個魔法專業能夠解決這些困難的事情所以針對這些高危少年然後保護管束跟安置輔導當中的個案共同評估是非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":4759.611,"end":4770.167,"text":"所以就是學校或安置機構轉型教育都不是這些單一機構可以處理的從評估開始就要跨網絡的去不斷的做研議"},{"start":4772.608,"end":4798.37,"text":"再来是增加学资中心与社安网心理师的人力还有改善聘任制度提供这些少年长期并且稳定的资商辅导不论是高风险高危少年或者是这些受过心理创伤然后家庭功能施功能不是那么完整的少年都是需要长期还有稳定的心理资商心理辅导去跟他们做工作合作还有介入的"},{"start":4799.554,"end":4827.604,"text":"那當然目前的這些人力困境我也就先不做贅述但是這些也是可能需要去討論的議題再來是少年保護事件的審理還有要納入學校和網絡端的評估意見當這些少年要回歸教育跟日常生活的時候其實應該要讓這些接手的學校也有機會去回饋他們的評估譬如說有關於安全性"},{"start":4828.644,"end":4845.018,"text":"他們能不能夠承接學校的人力然後這個風險危機這些學校端應該也要能夠去做全面的評估並且把這個評估報告做回覆看他們有沒有這個承接的量能"},{"start":4846.769,"end":4863.102,"text":"那再來第五點呢從我們實務現場可以看到就是跟著一些兒童青少年做諮商輔導的時候家長的參與是非常非常重要的家長的參與還有改變會很大程度的加速孩子的改變"},{"start":4864.103,"end":4892.003,"text":"所以儿少的资商或者是跟儿少工作做辅导是不能够排除家长的因此家庭教育中心可能可以纳入更多的资商专业或是我们针对这一些其实高风险高危少年背后这样比较失功能有创伤跟破碎的家庭能够用什么样子的方式去跟这些家庭做一些工作让家庭的改变可以很大程度的去影响到孩子的改变"},{"start":4893.297,"end":4901.018,"text":"所以不只是家庭教育中心或者是舉辦一些課程而是需要更深入跟更強化的去跟這些家庭做工作"},{"start":4902.557,"end":4928.878,"text":"再來當然就是強化校園安全的策略那不論是增聘危機管理人員強化校園安全的維護或者是讓教育人員或是這些工作者對於學生可能罹患的心理疾患的敏感度的辨識還有提升還有這些嚴重適應困難的學生他們是有可能比較高比例被診斷出心理疾患的"},{"start":4929.418,"end":4941.707,"text":"那如果相關的人員是比較缺乏相關的知識無法採取正確的因應方式的話那就可能比較沒有辦法及時有效的發現學生的狀況並且協助他們"},{"start":4948.072,"end":4965.5,"text":"最後呢在戈井事件之後資商心理師工會全聯會就有針對這個事情開過會那未來我們也會持續關注這個議題我們認為除了要接觸高風險的少年之外呢我們也是需要同時去守護校園的安全以上報告謝謝"},{"start":4969.478,"end":4977.445,"text":"好 謝謝好 那我們接下來請新北市學生輔導智商中心社公司督導許替龍發言"},{"start":4987.581,"end":5011.23,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位與會的長官 大家好我是新北市學生輔導諮詢中心的社工室督導我姓許 我叫替榮同時我在新北市負責的專案也就是過渡性教育措施我也想說就我這兩年執行過渡性教育措施的一些經驗希望可以對國民轉介教育條例草案這個部分"},{"start":5011.61,"end":5041.09,"text":"能夠有一些經驗上面的一些思考然後來去做一些回應我們在看這個草案的時候我其實是有一些期待的我希望在這個草案的部分他可以從物理隔離的角度希望可以有一些轉向能夠兼顧這些學生這些少年他在功能性復健上面的一些兼顧草案的部分其實我是認同去建立一個專業化的轉介機制來減輕原校在管教上面的壓力的初衷"},{"start":5041.75,"end":5067.502,"text":"那他的確也可以看到他在補足現行的國民教育法跟學生輔導法的一個處置的缺口但如果草案的部分僅有一致而缺乏社會銜接跟司法協作的這個整合那也擔心就是未來這些學生在安置期滿後回到原生社區他可能會因為缺乏社區的支持系統然後迅速崩解"},{"start":5068.642,"end":5091.452,"text":"對於整體就是終極的這個我們行為矯緻的目標是比較難達成的那針對實務操作的部分有以下三點建議那第一的部分是適性課程是穩定安置的核心那我在之前過渡性教育措施執行的一些經驗可以看到學生的初學期穩定度跟課程是否符合"},{"start":5091.872,"end":5112.644,"text":"他的興趣發展是有高度相關的那轉介教育希望不僅是原校學科的搬移應包含多元記憶跟行為矯智那也建議我們可以明確納入多元記憶訓練與體驗學習將法治教育能夠實際相牽於實作中那第二個部分是司法跟教育的強制性的共鉤"},{"start":5113.904,"end":5129.856,"text":"單靠教育行政手段是難以約制具有暴力傾向的這些少年那建議可以明文規範轉介教育學校跟少年法院調查保護官的聯繫機制將轉介期間的表現可否可以納入司法管束的一個平和指標"},{"start":5130.757,"end":5148.312,"text":"那相信我們的經驗裡面學生的確在司法外控壓力下他的一些校園輔導比如說像關係建立行為教職或是還有一些生涯輔導跟輔導策略的執行的確會比較能夠有效介入那學生的那個配合度也比較高"},{"start":5149.033,"end":5171.278,"text":"比較高那第三個部分希望可以建立情境式的正向社區支持網絡青少年身心發展是需要情境的正向網絡支持的那如果沒有社區支持的網絡銜接僅靠隔離其實學生未來回歸原生的社區後即意重回他舊有的偏差的圈子那轉介教育建議包含可以包含"},{"start":5172.798,"end":5197.445,"text":"這個回歸準備期讓學生在安置期滿後能夠逐步跟社區資源比如說像是社區少年服務機構可以做一些銜接那另外一個部分是針對條文的部分我們有一些一些條文的部分有以下四點的一些建議那第一個是建議思考就是服務對象的條件的部分建議可以限定國中階段那這個部分針對就是"},{"start":5199.565,"end":5222.364,"text":"草案第三條那修正的理由其實我們是看到其實國中跟國小他兩者的身心發展跟輔導邏輯是完全不同的那國小階段的偏差行為其實多受家庭環境影響的確可作性也比較高那應以社區跟家庭輔導為主那國中少年我們看到的是涉及暴力跟幫派風險的樣態是比較明確的"},{"start":5224.466,"end":5239.003,"text":"那我们建议修正的话可以明确的限定为国中阶段的学生那来精准投递我们的那个专业角质支援那再来是第二个部分是可以纳入司法安置来作为一个实质要件那"},{"start":5239.764,"end":5265.521,"text":"原本的第三条第一项的部分对于行为的解释空间是比较大的比如说显著的偏差行为危害校园安全之余其实容易导致学校现场因为行政压力或管教困难然后来做滥送申请那将不服管教或者是低度违规但显然没有实质暴力风险的学生用这个条例来做排除那其实这容易造成学生被排挤或者是标签化"},{"start":5270.344,"end":5293.658,"text":"高安全風險的對象那建議可以訂定具體的行為風險評量評估量表將轉接條件限定於具實質攻擊行為或者是攜帶違禁武器實證承受少年法院裁定感化教育收容於少關所或具保護管束身份那非由校方來進行主觀判斷那確保機制不會被濫用"},{"start":5294.699,"end":5319.719,"text":"那第三個部分是強化轉介教育的課程的內涵那建議就是其實課程如果不具有吸引力將會導致安置可能是會失敗的那建議在就是第四條跟第九條部分可以在法條中明定轉介教育除了學業跟法制外建議可以包含適性的發展興趣課程來提升安置的穩定度"},{"start":5321.069,"end":5343.536,"text":"那第四個部分是建議可以整體來可以回歸專業評估跟預後機制那針對第11條就是原條文要求確保不再出現偏差行為方可同意轉回原效在實質上比較有困難確保的部分比較在實質上可能難有一些實質效力那建議將確保修訂為回歸專業預後評估由審議會進行多維度的評估"},{"start":5349.838,"end":5373.235,"text":"那也建立他回歸原校後的隨訪追蹤還有社區的支持機制那用專業的評估來取代絕對性的保證那以上是個人建議 謝謝好 謝謝然後接下來我們就請那個清北市逆級薪水高級中學教授代表楊江謀先生就是楊爸好發言 謝謝"},{"start":5379.182,"end":5401.912,"text":"剛剛我他們一直提到一些問題那我剛剛就第二點就是提剛的第二點當初事發之後沒多久我們的吳宗憲立委就有把所有單位通通都找出來跟我談結果他們談的都是他們的職責至於怎麼聯繫完全都沒有"},{"start":5403.411,"end":5428.631,"text":"這個我覺得就是很好笑的一個問題你們都講你們的結果整個聯繫都沒有那後來監察院的報告就是整個聯繫都沒有才出現這種狀況司法接不住這些小朋友結果要我們受害者來接住這個是很荒唐的一件事然後剛剛講的就是"},{"start":5430.131,"end":5451,"text":"原就讀學校可是我們又剛好碰到郭生當時就是少關所出來直接轉到那所學校那你們你們都只是轉到那個學校原就讀學校結果新的學校你們沒有告訴他們這又是有一個問題結果剛剛有說那個高風險"},{"start":5459.264,"end":5486.741,"text":"我實在是真的聽得很生氣你們說要有所謂的教育結果我們這兩個加害者他們就是高風險的結果你們又是讓他們去所謂的正常學校這又是對的嗎你們在講都很有理論沒有錯 都很有理論結果你們實施出來的我看不到所有的理論"},{"start":5488.12,"end":5489.261,"text":"通通都錯過了這是對的嗎然後其實我最主要這次來講的就是說"},{"start":5499.571,"end":5523.916,"text":"我針對校安問題我要講的就是說現在教育部的獎懲制度真的是在幫黑道找合適的人選現在的計過處分感覺是他們的徽章也是他們的投名狀反而嘉獎沒有任何鼓勵這就是你們所說的受教權難道這些人的受教權大於大部分的學生的受教權嗎"},{"start":5525.456,"end":5539.613,"text":"第一個我贊成那個中介學校的成立不過我是希望是累積十大過不是所謂的學期或是學年就是累積不要再玩那些所謂的文字遊戲"},{"start":5541.809,"end":5565.9,"text":"然後這些人我們真的很給他時大過真的是很多改過的機會了吧他們應該要去就是仲介學校來找證他們不是讓他們繼續在一般學校來為非作歹教育部還有專家學者一直要用那個受害那個受教權來維護他們那我們一般學生的受教權誰來維護他們"},{"start":5568.905,"end":5593.242,"text":"我講難聽一點,如果今天學生跟老師嗆,那老師不用上課了其他的受教權呢?我不能上課了怎麼辦?我要影響二十幾個學生嗎?不可能啊不要再跟我講什麼受教權的問題然後我建議說有帶過刀的學生就應該要到中介學校去"},{"start":5594.178,"end":5607.708,"text":"因為這個真的不要又是幾次記過啊什麼阻止這樣子而已然後還有就是我覺得老師的收書包還有管教權必須要有"},{"start":5609.076,"end":5630.693,"text":"最近有新闻说学生带刀抵侯的那个案子老师只是数次夺刀还让他继续上课难道你要出人命你才要去处理这个学生吗你只是抵制而已这是对的吗然后最后我真的希望说"},{"start":5632.202,"end":5649.048,"text":"全國教室真的能夠安裝緊急求救鈴我們不怕一萬只怕萬一誰都沒有辦法預測會發生什麼事萬一就是警報鈴一響至少會有警示作用希望教育部能夠編列這個預算謝謝"},{"start":5654.447,"end":5663.374,"text":"謝謝楊爸然後接下來我們請名傳大學犯罪防治學系助理教授林舒立助理教授發言 謝謝"},{"start":5666.403,"end":5684.601,"text":"好的 主席還有各位先進還有楊爸爸還有各位這個與會的大家大家好那我想首先這邊這個再次表達我對剛剛楊爸爸所講這個帶過刀的部分應該要好好的來特別處理這一塊等一下我後面也會要補充說明那我們首先來看一看"},{"start":5685.281,"end":5699.877,"text":"這個也感謝委員特別重視這個少年的問題我們先來看一看少年處罰的這個趨勢那由於這個少年事件處理法主辦機關主責機關是司法院但是在司法院的資料裡面比較不容易找到"},{"start":5700.257,"end":5716.457,"text":"所以我這邊還是找到了這個113年的警政工作年報這裡面的幾個趨勢大家可以看得到雖然少年犯罪每年大概在一萬一跟九千之間浮動但是受到每十萬人口少年下降的減少"},{"start":5716.957,"end":5742.377,"text":"所以呢每10萬人口的少年犯罪其實是在增加還另外一個特別值得注意的是女生這個這個災犯罪這個過去是屬於比較少的但是他也有在微幅的這個增加那我們接下來來看看到底他增加的原因在哪邊那當然這個部分我們還是回到警政統計通報來看那這個部分可以看到少年犯罪的人數其實這個"},{"start":5745.579,"end":5759.345,"text":"可以看得出來少年犯罪的部分詐欺案是佔了最多那比較讓人家我們跟本議題相關的除了竊盜之外還有一般的這個傷害案這也是目前我們必須要面對的比較嚴重的一個問題"},{"start":5760.946,"end":5782.458,"text":"接下來我們來看看司法院這邊的資料司法院這邊的資料就可以看得到這是少年刑事案件的裁判結果可是剛剛看到明明一年被警方移送大概有一萬甚至一萬一千多件但是我們要特別注意到警方的資料"},{"start":5783.058,"end":5802.274,"text":"在1到8月份抱歉我回到上一頁這邊再來看一下1到8月份就已經少年處罰就10556人如果我們把它換算到12個月推估的話那114年恐怕會來到15000多名的涉案少年"},{"start":5802.634,"end":5816.685,"text":"所以這個成長的幅度其實是非常的嚇人的那我們特別來看這個司法院這邊的刑事案件其實在犯罪學裡面的漏斗效應特別用在少年犯罪少年處罰這邊這個漏斗限縮的非常厲害"},{"start":5820.328,"end":5841.645,"text":"即使警方一年查到1萬5千件但是事實上進入到司法最後裁判這個部分只剩下到400件那其中114年之前能夠判到5到10年的最多也就是只有7位而已所以這個司法的漏斗效應"},{"start":5842.565,"end":5865.536,"text":"我們只能說國家對於少年犯罪的保護其實執行的非常的努力那接下來我們再看一下這也是司法院公開的網站資料那這個少年的犯罪跟成年犯罪不太一樣第一個少年犯幾乎都一定會有共犯所以少年的共犯差不多計算出來大概會有六成有共犯"},{"start":5866.076,"end":5886.079,"text":"那如果在看到右邊跟成人共同實施的部分這個數字也是非常的新人那簡單算一下陳少共犯的案件大概也會有4成更值得大家注意的是右邊成人共犯的旁邊還有一個這個是司法院所提出的經常性犯罪"},{"start":5886.879,"end":5905.3,"text":"經常性犯罪大概也達到了三成換句話說司法院這邊判決出來的結果這個雖然從漏斗從一萬一限縮到這個三百五十但是呢這個經常犯罪的部分比例其實還是非常的高的"},{"start":5905.74,"end":5928.895,"text":"這一點值得我們的重視那談到少年保護官跟調查官那由於司法院現在在推行調保合一可能是因為人力資源不足的關係所以讓少年的保護官也兼做調查少年調查官也兼做保護那我們看到這個司法院統計書去年8月的目前為止的最新資料"},{"start":5929.535,"end":5957.126,"text":"其實這個執行保護管束處分的人數一直從兩萬降到現在的一萬三千送件那實際進入到保護管束的事實上大概只有五千件所以這個可能是因為人力調度不足或者是怎麼樣的關係這個部分詳細的原因還有待說明但是目前看起來比較可能的原因因為是這個少年"},{"start":5957.546,"end":5983.645,"text":"比較不太會涉及到這個毒品因而被這個保護管束或者是這個詐欺案件的部分比較不會進入到保護管束這個部分是另外一個問題我們在這邊就先不討論最後直接來到我的結論跟建議第一個我還是要強調就像楊爸爸所講的司法跟教育的銜接除了要幫助這些犯罪的小孩子"},{"start":5984.025,"end":6012.524,"text":"或者是處罰的小孩子正常回歸但是更要保護在學校的其他同學第二個學校他是一個特殊的環境他受到憲法的保障所以校內發生治安事件的時候警方沒有辦法立即要這個進入學校必須受到要求才可以進去那目前的校內維護治安的人口呢還沒有受到少年事件處理法的特別授權雖然教育部已經有訂了一個這個管教的這個補充規定"},{"start":6014.105,"end":6033.067,"text":"但是沒有法律的授權所以就像楊爸爸在講的這個帶刀刀學校的老師到現在對於可不可以收他的書包可不可以對這些受保護管束的學生有一定的約制這個問題還沒解決那我們絕對不容許不容許學生一帶攜帶刀械入校"},{"start":6033.587,"end":6052.021,"text":"那教師卻沒有這個監看或者是居宿權這個問題必須要重視跟解決那第三個當然是學生在轉介學校安置期滿在回歸學校之前這剛剛楊爸爸也特別提到要採取鑑定措施那我們建議是要採用"},{"start":6052.782,"end":6078.997,"text":"科學的工具量表讓他確定可以回到學校之後才可以回去剛剛講到受教權的部分我在這邊特別補充一下受教權固然很重要但是像在澳洲如果學生犯錯還沒有做成最終的決定之前學校是不會讓他回到學校去上課的必須要經過評估第四個目前的悼念調查跟保護官這個部分"},{"start":6079.517,"end":6099.509,"text":"恐怕還需要再檢討是不是有必要再成立這個相當單位之後來執行最後我要建議的是我們的國家制度可以參考先進的國家譬如說日本的兒童相談所或者是兒童的少年司法委員會這樣子來執行會比較有實際的成效以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":6102.901,"end":6128.267,"text":"謝謝林助理教授接下來我們請全國家長會長聯盟理事長陶連生理事長發言主席各位先進各位長官全國家長會長聯盟理事長陶連生在這邊就校園安全與授教權的平衡從國民轉介教育條例草案看高風險學生安置機制之意見報告"},{"start":6132.234,"end":6141.599,"text":"我們的校園安全與學生受教權的平衡關鍵不是只在於學生個人的行為處遇更在家庭支持系統能否同步到位"},{"start":6142.81,"end":6168.408,"text":"全國家長會長聯盟認為當學生出現嚴重偏差行為情緒失控長期拒學或反覆衝突時若家庭端長期缺席學校再多努力也容易事半功倍國民轉介教育條例草案若要真正發揮作用不能只有學生端的轉介與安置設計也必須把家長參與輕職教育家庭支持與後續追蹤一併納入制度"},{"start":6169.329,"end":6184.925,"text":"全長連主張家庭應成為處遇流程中的正式參與者但同時政府也必須提供足夠的家庭教育、社政支持與陪伴支援讓家庭有機會修復功能而不是只在問題發生後被動的來承擔責任"},{"start":6188.117,"end":6209.777,"text":"本聯盟主張學生的轉介處遇不能只處理學生本人也必須同步處理家庭支持的條件當高風險學生進入評估程序時家長或兼護人原則上應參與評估了解處遇方向並與學生及相關專業人員共同確認後續支持方式"},{"start":6210.618,"end":6235.677,"text":"在學生接受轉介教育期間家庭端不應只是被通知結果而是應同步接收必要的親職教育家庭教育諮商或社政支持服務學生回歸原校後也應建立一段合理期間的家庭合作與追蹤機制以確認家庭支持是否穩定親自合作是否持續學生是否具備穩定返校的條件"},{"start":6237.078,"end":6263.837,"text":"學長連強調家庭責任不是單純管教而是制度化參與家庭支持不是口號而是應有具體的資源陪伴與追蹤我們針對國民轉介教育條例草案的具體建議第一個轉介評估期應納入家長正式參與機制轉介審議程序應通知家長或監護人出席並說明學生現況評估依據與可能處遇方向"},{"start":6264.477,"end":6284.822,"text":"若家庭依特殊條件未能到場應由補刑說明輸滅意見或替代參與機制若長期失聯或持續拒絕配合則由社政體系評估是否介入建議的方向為在條例中明定家長參與程序與替代參與方式避免家長完全缺席"},{"start":6286.428,"end":6308.554,"text":"二 在處置處育期 同步納入親職教育與家庭支持學生接受介入教育期間 因事個案需要由家庭教育中心 學校或社政單位提供親職教育家庭諮商 家庭支持服務或轉介資源家庭端的改善可列為整體評估參考 但不以簡化為單一結案門檻建議的方向"},{"start":6309.694,"end":6329.651,"text":"參照家庭教育法的相關精神建立家長參與與家庭支持的配套機制過往處法少年的家長常因必須工作負擔家庭的生計法院會考量家庭狀況不忍強制要求輕職教育因此建議被要求要輕職教育的家長能不被扣薪"},{"start":6331.467,"end":6355.26,"text":"回歸追溯期建立家庭合作與穩定追蹤機制學生回歸原校後應有一段明確的追蹤期由校方家長與相關輔導人員定期檢視學生的適應狀況出缺型同儕互動與家庭支持的情形家長應配合基本聯繫與面談機制但制度設計應以合作支持預警為主"},{"start":6355.76,"end":6377.715,"text":"建議的方向為納入家長後續合作與追蹤責任並明定學校與相關單位之分工是責任機制採取分級處理而非一開始就重罰對於確有困難的家庭應優先提出協助、陪伴與資源連結對於長期無正當理由拒絕配合經多次通知仍消極規避者"},{"start":6378.556,"end":6395.485,"text":"才應進一步研議行政處理或強制措施相關制度應符合比例原則避免二次標籤或新的家庭對立建議的方向為建立先支持後要求再處理的分級責任制度為何家庭不能缺席"},{"start":6397.745,"end":6426.875,"text":"在學生問題未聯動家庭的支持處遇效果容易折損當學生進入高風險處遇階段往往不只是校園中的單一事件而是長期情緒互動教養陪伴與支持斷裂的累積結果若制度只處理學生的在校表現而未同步改善家庭支持條件學生即使暫時穩定回到原本缺乏支持的環境後仍可能再次陷入失序二"},{"start":6427.555,"end":6455.466,"text":"家庭合作不是附屬選項而是校園安全的一部分第一線教師常面對的困境不只是學生偏差行為本身而是家長對於輔導溝通與合作機制的長期缺席當學校單方面承擔所有壓力制度再完整也很難真正落地因此政策設計必須讓家長成為正式參與者而不是永遠的盤觀者三支持與責任必須一起建立全長年主張面對高風險家庭"},{"start":6456.286,"end":6472.82,"text":"學生家庭國家不能只要求家長配合也必須提供家長做得到的支持工具包括家庭教育 親職輔導家庭諮商 社政轉介與陪伴支援制度的目的不是把責任全推回家庭而是讓家庭重新有能力承接孩子"},{"start":6475.739,"end":6485.092,"text":"結論全國家長會黨聯盟支持建立中介教育與轉介儲育制度但認為制度若忽略家庭端將難以真正發揮效果"},{"start":6487.844,"end":6516.732,"text":"學生的偏差行為需要被處理家庭的支持功能也需要被重建只有把家長參與親子教育家庭支持與返校追蹤一併制度化才可能讓仲介教育從短期安置走向長期穩定學長您因此主張未來條文設計應把家庭視為支持系統的一環建立家長參與程序家庭支持配套與分級責任機制讓學校不再孤軍奮戰也讓孩子在返校後有更穩定的承接環境以上謝謝"},{"start":6519.261,"end":6526.357,"text":"謝謝陶理事長接下來我們請全國教師公會總聯合會研究員林立廷研究員發言"},{"start":6530.935,"end":6552.632,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位與會的來賓 各位長官大家好我是全教會的代表 那我本身也是現職的國中老師是 那首先我要跟亞巴說加油然後您把陳勛教得很好 因為您就是一個很好的典範那他會以您為人 是"},{"start":6554.878,"end":6582.339,"text":"那其实针对这个讨论提纲呢因为我是现职的国中老师我本身也是导师所以其实我觉得我在执教的这20年来其实看到校园有很多的变化那的确早期在国中生他其实有很多暴力犯罪的部分那但是近年来因为我觉得家庭功能尤其是网络的影响其实孩子的偏差行为已经跟以前有很大的不同"},{"start":6582.859,"end":6611.566,"text":"那再來就是剛剛次長就是在代表教育部長官說明的時候其實學校目前的三級輔導制度真的是已經做到非常的完善剛剛說的這些不管是多元化的教育的課程適性的課程其實學校都一直都在進行當中我們並不是沒有在做這件事情那可是今天還是發生了一件這麼遺憾的事情我相信沒有任何一個人願意看到"},{"start":6612.526,"end":6630.218,"text":"學生在學校裡面受傷甚至是過世這樣子那可是學校的問題為什麼我覺得這當然是可能就是學校這幾年在跟過去的管教方式的確是不太一樣而且是其實是現在是以學生的"},{"start":6630.718,"end":6656.782,"text":"所謂的人權為重的一個前提之下其實學校老師在管教上是真的是有很多幫手幫腳的地方比如說剛剛從過去的可以做校園檢查然後到現在其實是連校園檢查的部分我們都還要有所忌憚說怕是不是又會被提告不當管教或者是這個不適應教師這樣的一個情況其實是老師是真的是很無奈但是"},{"start":6657.162,"end":6674.793,"text":"老師還是盡力在做好每一件的工作那當然今天我們討論的是可能這是高風險的一個少年的部分但是其實這些少年不會是非常高的比例因為剛剛從幾位前面的先進來談他們其實就是一些"},{"start":6676.774,"end":6689.28,"text":"當它發生的時候其實是社會矚目的案件可是其實一般學校校園裡面這種學生其實真的是微乎其微那根據我們自己本身的經驗其實大部分我們輔導的可能就是一些瀕臨違法邊緣的少年"},{"start":6692.521,"end":6717.616,"text":"教育部跟地方的政府單位在這幾年尤其是在這個割後案發生之後其實很著重在過渡性教育這一塊那我可以去分享一下目前過渡性教育在學校執行的一個狀況就是的確我們是有一個專責的人力也就是我們的輔導組長要去安排這些過渡性教育但是學校的資源有資源嗎沒有因為學校它本身"},{"start":6718.856,"end":6734.488,"text":"我們就是受教育訓練可是我們沒有學過修車我們沒有學過煤房我們沒有學過烹飪所以我們必須要去找這些資源那當然這些資源可能就是老師個人資源或是校友個人資源甚至是我們對面理髮店的老闆"},{"start":6735.188,"end":6756.452,"text":"然後輔導老師他可能必須要去請上如果這個老闆他願意播出一點的時間來教導我們的孩子那我們可以去做銜接這樣子但是長官們通常就是一個個案給你十萬塊然後教練兩個禮拜之內要排出這一個月的課程而且呢長官還會審核這個課程不夠"},{"start":6759.973,"end":6786.774,"text":"不够完整不够扎实怎么可以早上只有看电影下午只有打球不行你还要安排心理智商或者是法治教育等等这类的课程给孩子可是现在我们把课程排出来了然后也请到不管是社区师傅或者是学校老师或者是校外的这些专家学者愿意来帮孩子上课可是时间到了"},{"start":6787.475,"end":6789.048,"text":"孩子呢孩子沒有出現"},{"start":6790.786,"end":6818.437,"text":"對就是因為這些孩子他現在比如說他已經離開少關所他已經離開矯正學校了他回到學校其實學校對他沒有任何的約束力那其實我們也很感謝保護官或者是法院的法官他們願意用這個比如說後面的這些司法的手段去強制要求孩子說你必須要到校你不到校的話我會再要求讓你回到這些回到這個機構內這樣子那"},{"start":6820.538,"end":6839.874,"text":"可是如果不在乎的孩子他就是不在乎所以当我们满满的课表排出来之后你会发现孩子他可能他今天就不来啦或者是他可能下午睡饱了才来那所以其实学校我们在做这些过渡性教育的时候对孩子是没有一点约束力的"},{"start":6840.915,"end":6862.91,"text":"所以這個其實每每發生這些青少年的問題或孩子的問題我們都覺得很痛心可是我們到底能做什麼學校其實不是社會問題的捕破網那我們一直在做捕破網的工作我們也希望能夠在前面去做到預防的部分那前面有幾位先進講的很重要就是"},{"start":6864.131,"end":6887.214,"text":"家庭教育要跟学校去做合作我们也提供了社区资源或者是辅导心理师的资源请拜托家长来学校资商或辅导可是家长可能有种种的原因家庭因素或个人因素就没有办法配合或不愿意配合所以学校常常是在那边空转"},{"start":6888.14,"end":6911.901,"text":"那第一方面对高风险的孩子没有成效而对其他孩子这些资源又没有办法用到他们的身上那最后针对这个草案的部分呢其实我觉得其实这个其实第一个它的设计可能在法规上会有很多的问题那再来如果少关所的这些教育或者是学校过渡性教育都做不到的事情这个"},{"start":6912.722,"end":6931.461,"text":"转介教育真的做得到吗还是其实我们现在只是因为害怕他回到学校他成为一个未报道我们把他丢到那个地方让他们跟社会隔离而已可是其实这些教育我们现在在谈的这些东西如果对现在这些一个月两个月的过渡教育都没有用了那他在那个安置处所就能够达到"},{"start":6932.382,"end":6951.822,"text":"這些作用嗎其實我是抱著懷疑的態度我覺得倒不如在我們現行的制度上譬如說中介教育或者指揮班如果能夠去處理的話在現行的制度上再去讓他們有一個跟現在環境脫離或是安置的處所那再去做調整可能會是一個比較好的狀況以上 謝謝"},{"start":6956.176,"end":6984.437,"text":"謝謝林研究員接下來我們請國立中正大學犯罪防治學系教授林明傑教授發言謝謝主席以及謝謝各位在座的我們在座的官員跟長輩跟我們前輩我是中正大學犯防系林明傑教授因為我要講的東西還蠻多的我要趕快講快一點我大概先簡單講一下我自己的背景"},{"start":6985.177,"end":7006.415,"text":"其实我们国内的性侵害家暴的危险分级制度那是我在国外引进的我连在读博士班的时候就开始引进了然后我后来在读博士班毕业之后然后一回来就发现说的确就是我们现在的少年的现在状况各个地方散为一盘就是没有把它整合起来"},{"start":7007.677,"end":7021.892,"text":"我後來就想一件事我們應該用危險分級其實我們的量表就趕快國外引進之後國內趕快找樣本來做做完了就趕快有了大概三年就會有也會有動態量表、靜態量表"},{"start":7022.893,"end":7037.381,"text":"那這樣做就會有啦那說有的時候呢再來每個月開一次會就這麼簡單但是問題是我們少年到現在還沒有亮表我們現在是那個司法院是要求說各少年法院自己去成立亮表"},{"start":7038.602,"end":7052.998,"text":"樣表是專家成立的不是個少年法院成立的這個少年法院的法官每個人都知道你要評估要不要有性效度要要有性效度我才可以接受你自己發展的沒有性效度"},{"start":7054.059,"end":7069.294,"text":"怎麼會這樣子這個是專家做的是教授在做的應該委託教授趕快委託出去這件事不能這樣拖因為我的想法是再繼續拖下去那就是第二個第三個第五個第十幾個楊爸爸這樣子這樣子我們來看下一個"},{"start":7069.955,"end":7095.473,"text":"那我的想法很簡單在這裡呢其實在這裡大概就要我是希望說我們的少年法要修正你現在只有把少年的曝險少年只有三個是錯的少年的案件其實本來他叫愚犯行為是七個你一下子給他改成三個那就是你現在都管不到那些人哪些人那參加不良組織然後呢然後交往犯罪習性的人"},{"start":7096.584,"end":7113.283,"text":"我們現在雖然說第一我們雖然有攜帶刀械吸毒跟預備犯罪這些嚴嚴不夠啊尤其我們現在看到暴征的根本就是炸棋犯啊那這一塊是真的要趕快鎖住是很多的法學專家叫我一定要講這句話然後第二個"},{"start":7114.384,"end":7136.978,"text":"我們碰到一個大問題就是司法院只負責審判所以說他的一些輔導措施其實是屬於行政業務結果他現在搞在一起這個就是到現在一個大問題明明少年犯罪越來越多少年保護時間越來越少因為他們說了算"},{"start":7139.013,"end":7159.845,"text":"而且還不讓你去查這個才是問題所以我想說這個絕對全世界沒有人這樣搞的所以司法院你只能夠留他以前叫少年保護人後來硬是把它分為保護官調查官跟保護官你留調查官想要留問他們想要留的你請留在這裡然後我們司法院養你"},{"start":7160.97,"end":7179.615,"text":"但是你以後你調查出來的然後裁定出來的你就是法院你就是要交由法務部成立關護署來做這件事也就是我們現在少年關護跟少年關護保護跟成年關護保護是斷屆的他們根本沒有在打電話的"},{"start":7181.923,"end":7196.279,"text":"那所以說我怎麼知道他以前的案件我去查我還有罪因為少年法已經把他鎖死了你怎麼會這麼這樣子的做法我們要救他其實要有足夠的資料跟武器你自己先綁死自己這樣怎麼對我們來看下一個"},{"start":7197.721,"end":7226.36,"text":"所以呢日本他本來就是分立的啊德國也是分立的啊全世界幾乎都分立只有我們台灣這很奇怪啊然後再來就是量表量表是我們的性侵家暴也都有做的啊那就很簡單趕快找人做這個不是很簡單的事嗎我從20年前講到現在20年前講到現在司法院沒有人做怎麼會這樣子我真的沒想到再來就是上元法的那個法條我的想法就在這裡面第三家第四跟第五條"},{"start":7227.74,"end":7244.406,"text":"然後再來就是我的想法是很簡單我們的少年法我們的憲法就規定司法歸司法行政歸行政那本來就應該分開啊所以未來這些少年法的只要是少年調查官及少年保護官執行職務應服從法官之監督"},{"start":7245.886,"end":7258.321,"text":"這個少年保護官就要刪掉就這麼簡單而且以後應該要成立關護署我是堅決要成立請立法委員拜託幫忙而且這個名字應該要叫做犯罪防治關護署為什麼"},{"start":7261.164,"end":7290.103,"text":"因为犯罪事实上是要专业人去研究的也不是法官你学法学你就知道怎么样判不是您懂的是法律大家要丰功专业而且要整合所以分立完还整合那才是重点然后我们现在法务部有一个叫做犯罪研究中心那这个应该要拿进来然后全国都应该好好去把他这个事情做好你们看下一个然后少年制药保护太过于太过那保护太过了应该要"},{"start":7290.663,"end":7317.984,"text":"你犯的罪是重罪的你就應該給他說你是重罪五年以上的我的資料保護你是十年也就是說不是三年就讓他走了然後就完全都沒有資料他一直在犯耶然後再來就是說我們的保護我們的評估會議是每個月要開一次我要跟大家分享一件事四年前的衛福部做了一個研究然後說各縣市的性侵害的再犯率輔導後再犯率多少"},{"start":7318.906,"end":7335.184,"text":"結果後來一查我自己就嚇一跳嘉義縣的災犯率是零新青泰嘉義縣的災犯率零那我就跟他們講我想一想我怎麼做的最難的三分之一是給我做比較簡單的就交給各醫院做就這麼簡單災犯率零可以做到的"},{"start":7336.799,"end":7351.857,"text":"我们再看下一个那我的想法是我们岳立伟所提的这个法呢其实是很需要去顾顾好这个小朋友这个绝对没错那我们国家盟的他也是希望说是不是教育跟社政要整合起来"},{"start":7352.538,"end":7368.018,"text":"這個也沒錯那我後來我就請了一個我們雲林也是我的好朋友他是有社工學士跟法律碩士他接了雲林縣嘉義縣跟嘉義市的少年很多方案我跟他說拜託你幫我寫"},{"start":7369.539,"end":7387.552,"text":"他幫我寫出一個叫做少年適應教育及轉弦復歸法這個名稱如果改成這樣子他的idea我後來想一想我昨天晚上還跟他問你的idea是什麼其實他說基本上有一些大原則就是說你校園一定要有一個預警機制然後還有低中高要分清楚"},{"start":7387.972,"end":7414.796,"text":"然後再來就是說我們的時間我的立法的條文都在上面你們可以自己去查不過大方上來講基本上你們可以上網到這裡去下載我已經放在雲端了謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝林教授接下來我們請國立中正大學師資培育中心副教授連啟順副教授發言"},{"start":7416.916,"end":7432.848,"text":"主席各位長官還有與會的各位先進大家好我是國立中心大學師培中心主任在這邊發言我非常肯定這次的法案的建立因為我們現在的校園環境有越來越多的挑戰"},{"start":7433.809,"end":7448.041,"text":"那身為市培中心的一個老師 教授主任那我們在培育失智的過程中看到目前我們的現代的大學生願意投入失智培育的人數相對越來越減少那因為現在校園裡頭強調的是友善校園"},{"start":7451.424,"end":7473.818,"text":"正向管教所以呢老師現在可以使用的方法跟手段越來越收線所以我們現在的青年都越來越不願意投入教職所以這個法案基本上我是非常肯定的那剛剛前面有很多與會的先進已經報告過很多的部分那我這邊從我的角度提供三個主要對這個草案的一個建議第一個是"},{"start":7476.73,"end":7490.622,"text":"剛剛有提到我們這些轉介的學生這些對象我覺得應該有更明確的規範跟限制以免被學校或者是有心的人士濫用那這個東西也會牽涉到"},{"start":7491.758,"end":7510.387,"text":"是不是會違反兒童權利的公約因為這個是強調所有受教學生的公平性的一個問題所以剛剛前面有很多先進的討論到哪些學生應該轉介到這些中介的學校或者是轉介教育裡頭我覺得應該有更明確的規範在第三條裡頭可能可以有更多的討論"},{"start":7512.548,"end":7534.996,"text":"另外一個思考方向建議是,我們這個轉介的法案、草案,是不是會跟我們目前現有的法規有一些競合的問題?目前教育法規非常多,我不是教育專家,至少我聽到有些法案似乎跟這個法規可能有一些重疊部分,可能可以做一些調整,這是第二個想法。"},{"start":7535.576,"end":7558.829,"text":"第三個想法也是做一個想法就是我們在草案裡頭第九條我們轉介教育是希望能夠強化法治觀念情緒管理人際互動及責任感的培養應該涵蓋品德教育法治觀念記憶訓練生涯發展的面向我覺得這個法條寫得很好不過就一個我自己專業的角度我是教育心理學家"},{"start":7559.509,"end":7579.872,"text":"我們在學習上面或者是求學上面我們強調是動機這個東西當然很重要可是這些孩子他本身就是在學習上面有動機所以在課程設計上當他轉介到這個中介學校的時候我們不是只是把他隔離在那個地方降低風險而已我覺得我們還是要有一個教育的功能"},{"start":7580.833,"end":7603.248,"text":"把課程設計好那我們一直提到說要適性教育 英才實教不過這寫的都很口號式其實應該要針對這些孩子的特點去找到適合他們他們有興趣 他們才會去學習 才會轉化才有矯正 然後改進的可能性所以這是我第三個建議以上 供大家參考 謝謝"},{"start":7609.08,"end":7612.763,"text":"謝謝連部教授接下來我們請人本三重青少年基地館長蕭義貞館長發言"},{"start":7621.448,"end":7640.421,"text":"委員各位先進大家好我是仁本三重青少年基地的易珍那我今天是已在三盧地區三重盧州地區蹲點25年的青少年工作者那我們在三重盧州這一帶"},{"start":7641.241,"end":7658.724,"text":"我們已經成立基地在這邊已經陪伴了無數的青少年那這些青少年裡面有很多就是大家口中的高風險的青少年那在整個過程當中其實我們在社區裡面工作的時候"},{"start":7659.304,"end":7680.133,"text":"其實就非常的密切跟學校社工還有甚至法院這邊保護官這邊也都有密切的合作當看到議委員這邊提出這樣子的一個法案的修法的時候我們其實心裡面"},{"start":7682.063,"end":7710.444,"text":"當然非常覺得葉委員有非常的關心我們的青少年的處境因為以在整個台灣青少年處境來講其實大家對於青少年其實都還在一個對於他們是什麼樣的人類都還在一個摸索的階段那其實也不是只有我們不是只有台灣人不瞭解青少年全世界是近20年來才開始研究青少年的大腦"},{"start":7711.485,"end":7734.231,"text":"那我們在對於青少年的各種犯罪行為或是他們偏差行為的時候其實在背後的機制其實都到現在都還是一個搞不清楚他們的狀態但其實從過往一直以來對於這些偏差行為青少年不管我們過去少事法修法的時候用那個餘犯列的幾項"},{"start":7735.911,"end":7764.425,"text":"那一直以來大家其實想的都是用隔離的方式那的確隔離某種程度為社會帶來一些安心的力量但是當這些青少年回到社會的時候其實是缺乏很多的支持的系統那舉例來說我們在我們遇過很多青少年回來的時候比如說從矯正系統以我們最熟知的少關所或是"},{"start":7765.626,"end":7787.863,"text":"以前的港化學校那學生一出來第二天就有人約他去酒店然後喝醉酒了之後呢然後也叫了小姐然後第二天醒來發現兩個人被丟包在酒店然後他們一出所第二天就開始要背負"},{"start":7790.146,"end":7814.657,"text":"10萬塊的錢因為他們在酒店裡面他們要付這個錢那也有很多學生因為以我們的這個內文來講其實有提到說這些孩子其實就是家庭功能失常那有很多情緒上面的狀況那有很多個人的問題然後也有很多環境上面的問題但這些少年出所之後其實是沒有機會去"},{"start":7816.218,"end":7828.929,"text":"沒有一個能力去面對這樣子的大的結構性的問題的時候他最容易的一件事情就是直接回到他原本的環境但就是以"},{"start":7830.822,"end":7855.147,"text":"我們當我們在看這部法這個條文的時候其實心裡面想的一件事情是那這個跟我們的矯正學校的這些設置的法律的內容到底有什麼不同他是不是還又是一個要把人隔離然後最後隔離一段時間之後再放出來那裡面的設置"},{"start":7857.227,"end":7878.786,"text":"這裡面到底有多少的能夠協助這些青少年改變的機制那我們其實也有所疑慮那像前面有很多的先進講的就是以這一個法看來那我們會覺得也有一點跌床架屋的感覺因為以目前來講我們的"},{"start":7881.748,"end":7906.31,"text":"轉介教育其實有就我目前已知的大概有三種就是一個是遲回班剛剛千金有提到就是提供住宿跟穩定的生活環境給家庭功能不髒的小孩那再來還有一個是資源式的中途班那是讓小孩留在原校提供彈性課程讓他們上課"},{"start":7907.791,"end":7933.371,"text":"那另外還有一個合作式的中途班那這個會跟民間的資源結合提供多元式的學習那以基地這邊來講我們會比較偏向是在後面的這個合作式的中途班這件事但我們其實並沒有正式的跟學校這邊做簽約但我們知道民間已經有很多機構跟學校這邊有一個很正式的合作"},{"start":7934.231,"end":7956.801,"text":"讓一些中錯或是說有高風險的孩子能夠到這些中途的環境去那為什麼這些孩子會沒有辦法在原校而是需要到社區裡面的機構去做一些去上課或是去學習那某一種程度上我們遇過很多孩子的狀況是他們在學校的確有很多不適應的狀況"},{"start":7957.981,"end":7983.05,"text":"那以舉例來說就是老師其實很討厭那個學生然後最後對那個孩子是會做排擠的但這樣的老師其實並不多就我們目前來講我們看到的就是學校的狀況學校對孩子的友善的程度其實是一直不斷的在調整的但同時我們也看到"},{"start":7983.53,"end":8008.74,"text":"就是學校裡面其實真的輔導資源不夠而且輔導資源跟學校或是學務處這邊其實是會有衝突的當輔導老師他希望採取對學生比較友善的方式的時候但其他的導師跟學務處這邊並不一定會支持那另外還有一件事情就是其實像"},{"start":8010.666,"end":8038.665,"text":"我們以衛福部這邊來講衛福部就我們所知是衛福部有在各縣市推動小衛星的計畫那以新北我們三盧地區來說我們其實就有一個我們有把兒少科有把我們的三盧地區的社福單位都做一個串聯那我們每個月都會開會大家會互相討論我們在地區我們在社福區裡面當學校轉介這些孩子來我們這裡的時候"},{"start":8040.086,"end":8063.491,"text":"那我們還有什麼事情可以幫忙這個小孩除了只是教他們功課之外所以我們也會跟家長合作那也會跟社工合作那我這邊會覺得說如果與其只是去在各縣市再多增建一個這樣子的轉介學校那不如也多強化一點在社區裡面的工作這樣子謝謝"},{"start":8068.238,"end":8076.324,"text":"謝謝校館長接下來我們請台灣雲林地方法院主任保護官謝嘉仁保護官主任保護官發言"},{"start":8078.284,"end":8097.799,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位長官各位先進大家好我是台灣雲林地方法院主任調查保護官謝嘉仁我特別強調我有兼調查所以這個部分第四題是有這樣的一個狀況那等一下針對第四題的部分我再做個說明好我們先來談剛剛館長在談說現在的青少年的狀況"},{"start":8103.602,"end":8130.488,"text":"蠻蠻複雜而且多元的我自己從事這個少年司法的工作已經滿28年今年邁入29年所以我們看到的各個世代的青少年其實都長不太一樣所以隨著我們整個社會變遷還有家庭功能的一個施功能目前其實青少年的問題其實複雜度越來越高這也是剛剛林明傑教授在談那個犯罪的比例其實越來越"},{"start":8131.908,"end":8150.562,"text":"照理說是少子化那我們的案件應該隨著少子化變少沒有 我們案件量其實是有在增加當然跟警察在移送詐欺案他那個方式可能跟我們一般的認知不太一樣這是另外一個問題那我先針對今天我們在談的這個四個議題來做一個討論跟報告第一個部分"},{"start":8154.545,"end":8169.471,"text":"所謂的中介教育跟矯正教育的差別在哪裡其實我們青少年在進入我們少年法庭之後法官會根據我們少年事件處理法第19條的規定先交給我們少年調查官做調查做審前調查"},{"start":8170.911,"end":8198.818,"text":"那我們省檢調查的重點在於三五年司法的個別處遇化原則簡單來講就是通常我們刑事犯罪會談到一個叫罪跟刑要相當罪跟刑要相當可是三五年司法剛好排除了罪刑相當性原則換句話說你犯的也許是比較重的罪但是你的需保護性比較低你給的處分搞不好是比較輕的所以還是回到個別化的一個原則處置"},{"start":8199.798,"end":8216.657,"text":"所以在個別化的狀況之下有些少年的虛保護性比較低我們就可以用社區的處遇社區的處遇比如說假日生活輔導或保護管束來進行那如果他的狀況就是這個虛保護性就是在講的再犯危險性比較高"},{"start":8217.338,"end":8238.865,"text":"那可能要用機構型的處域來進行比如說矯正教育那個部分就是感化教育的部分所以還是回到少年的本身就是他的個別差異去做調整他的保護處分好那這個部分剛剛有在談說中介教育的部分其實還是放在社區屬域的部分比如說少年的狀況"},{"start":8239.665,"end":8263.4,"text":"他可能在學校的適應不太好但是他的本質還不是太差所以還可以用比較低度的處分來進行但是因為他的家庭功能不好所以我們需要有一個替代的或彌補家庭功能的一個方案這個時候我們的中介教育就很有它的功能所以我非常肯定我們這個條例裡面的第六條"},{"start":8264.521,"end":8280.99,"text":"就是說我們這次要設置的這個條例第六條就是我們這個各縣市政府應該設一個轉介教育來滿足轄區的學生需求這個確實是必須要做的不過目前的中介教育剛剛館長也談到了我們有分成就是比如說"},{"start":8282.391,"end":8300.065,"text":"就是辭回班還有這個資源式中途班還有合作式中途班資源式中途班應該是學校辦理的那可能我們目前外面的中介教育大部分都是合作式中途班合作式中途班都是跟外面的機構來合作"},{"start":8302.106,"end":8323.534,"text":"這個部分在實務面我們在操作起來的時候會發現有一個問題因為你要跟外面的機構你要用採購法的方式來出去要看機構有沒有人來標而且你標之後你後面的一個評鑑這個控管品質控管就會產生比較大的問題我個人比較傾向所謂的中途就是"},{"start":8324.514,"end":8340.335,"text":"中途班合作式中途班應該盡量是資源式的就是用學校的部分來補強那甚至剛剛有同仁提到有先進提到說是不是focus就聚焦在國中端根據我個人工作的經驗我個人認為我們這個"},{"start":8342.618,"end":8358.589,"text":"這個所謂的轉介教育學校應該在國小端就要開始進行了以目前我們雲林來講我們雲林在北港的北城國小已經有一個叫溫馨家園的國小端的轉介教育"},{"start":8359.489,"end":8377.425,"text":"台中善水國中小他從國小的五六年級就開始介入因為他家庭功能的狀況不好你如果在國中端等到惡化的時候你才介入其實會比較慢一點所以在國小端應該往前做一個預備的動作所以我個人認為如果"},{"start":8378.986,"end":8406.141,"text":"我們在中介教育的部分就轉介教育的部分做得好其實會降低我們少年進入感化教育的程度那感化教育的執行如果能夠採分級分類它其實可以降低離開感化教育觸手之後進入成人監獄的比例所以這個地方是環環相扣的所以如果以整體的犯罪預防來講應該在前端就要預先去做好準備那再來這個地方這個條例裡面我再講一下這個條例"},{"start":8407.262,"end":8434.271,"text":"第11條我個人有一點顧慮就是說我們11條要經過教育審議評估確保不會出現這個這個會讓我們的學生會產生一個問題我們學生轉介出去之後會回不來回不來之後我們少年法庭就會過度擔心不敢轉介過去各位了解這個意思嗎所以這個11條的部分建議稍微修正一下可能不能夠可能要有一些評估機制跟彈性"},{"start":8435.131,"end":8459.883,"text":"不能夠這麼的這麼硬不然這樣的話會到時候法官可能會有所顧慮OK那可能第二題第二題的部分時間有一點限度我稍微講一下我們對第四題的部分剛剛林明傑教授講很多第四題的部分我們稍微談一下坦白講就全國來講全世界來講調查跟保護合一的只有我們台灣"},{"start":8461.344,"end":8481.805,"text":"調查官兼保護官的只有我們台灣所以我覺得這個地方是可以討論做一個彈性的調整只不過那個部分的比例可能要稍微審酌一下因為我們畢竟就我們少年調查官跟保護官的loading來講其實我們調查官的比例是比較就負荷比較重"},{"start":8482.406,"end":8511.886,"text":"反而保護官的部分其實的負荷比較輕因為我們調查的時候調查是屬於法官審判權的一個延伸所以他會有時間壓力而且他的案量也比較大所以調查官的比例坦白講應該是比較高那保護官的部分其實是比較少那保護官我們比較顧慮的保護官比較擔心的就是說他這樣子到成人跟少年一起處獄的時候比較擔心就是我們少年犯會受成人犯的影響"},{"start":8512.766,"end":8538.617,"text":"所以這個地方的分界跟保護措施應該做妥適的規劃所以關於這個部分我們比較顧慮的是這一點以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝謝家仁主任調查保護官現在我們學者專家均已發言完畢那現在請機關代表回應首先請教育部張料萬堅政務次長"},{"start":8545.438,"end":8566.804,"text":"謝謝主席以及今天與會的專家學者那麼我聽了十三位我們的各界代表從第一位那個國教盟的王會長有特別提到他支持這個國民轉介教育條例草案的一個立法方向那我想我們在"},{"start":8568.084,"end":8589.941,"text":"特別有提到那個輔導無效的案例要怎麼評估那我想就現行的機制上面事實上已經不管是這個矯正教育也好或者說進入那個是法院在在提的那個保護的那個管制度也好其實是都會有一些評估啦那我想"},{"start":8591.109,"end":8619.936,"text":"那個我們會來參酌那個會長的意見那第二位那個鄧文藍校長特別提到說目前學校友善校園遇到的一些阻礙那老師的管教權的問題以及這個學生輔導跟管教的這個不一樣那我想我們也會來聽聽現場的意見剛才有好幾個包括教長團體代表跟教師團體代表那"},{"start":8621.036,"end":8640.73,"text":"另外是他也提到說這個如果說我們這個草案來設立之後會不會有孩子回不來的問題那目前的制度是不是有一些都有但是呢這個彼此不同的單位譬如說法務部司法院跟教育部以及各單位之間是不是可以繼續優化"},{"start":8642.271,"end":8657.881,"text":"彼此之間的合作能夠讓這個制度更完整那是不是一定要來設這個所謂的中介教育學校他也有一些看法那我想我們都會聽那來做後續的一個評估那另外那個"},{"start":8659.602,"end":8678.303,"text":"方惠生主任也有從他的豐富的這個實務輔導經驗來分享中介教育跟矯正教育對象的不同那他也特別提到很多制度跟流程必須要更優化來落實可能比較不會產生類似這個羊爸這樣子個案的一個悲劇那另外那個智商"},{"start":8679.484,"end":8700.787,"text":"智商司的那個吳副秘書長也提到了這個輔導教育是跨單位的合作那目前如果說我們這個條例裡面是屬於比較隔離就是說把比較有一些高風險的這些不省少年或者說還沒有犯罪那個有可能犯罪之餘的特別提到這個轉介教育區那會不會"},{"start":8701.788,"end":8716.954,"text":"也有一些問題會另外的問題會產生那他也提到一個怎麼強化校園安全的策略就是說每個家長都在擔心那是不是應該要徵聘這個危機管理人員就所謂的校安人員那事實上我們國教署這邊教育部這邊也在"},{"start":8717.934,"end":8732.603,"text":"協助地方這種徵聘在國中端也徵聘了不少這個校安的人力那有關那個新北市那個輔導輔志中心的許督導特別也提到專業化的安置機構像社區的支持系統也非常重要"},{"start":8733.143,"end":8762.037,"text":"那如果真的設了這些所謂的中介學校中介教育的學校那他們將來復歸這個社區是不是會遇到更多的困難那這部的法令裡面有沒有提到這樣的一個比較配套式的一個做法可能也要來考慮另外楊爸也提到說我們好像也涉及我們有很多單位像今天出席的有法務部有司法院有教育部"},{"start":8762.537,"end":8786.791,"text":"各單位其實都在努力青少年犯罪的問題以及在校園裡面的一些問題那是不是大家都只是在講自己的資權然後呢沒有辦法真正去解決現場的問題這個必須跟楊爸致歉說我們做得不夠那我們會繼續努力那至於這個警報鈴的這個問題要不要來處理我們也會來聽地方政府跟學校的意見我們再來研商那另外有關那個"},{"start":8790.219,"end":8815.031,"text":"林教授特別有提到也是提到那個是不是應該參考日本設這個少年司法委員會我想在座有今天有法務部跟司法院的代表那我想也容我們政府將來會有一個能夠有機會來做跨部會的一個討論另外那個全家盟的陶會長也提到家庭支持條件的重要就是說這個轉介教育即使設"},{"start":8816.232,"end":8838.633,"text":"很多都是那個犯罪少年或高風險少年他其實很重要的是他的那個家庭支持那將來的轉介教育上面家庭支持的這個參與跟家長的參與是非常重要的怎麼樣設計那個制度性的一個參與那將來呢我想主席在講這個草案的時候將來有機會討論的時候我們再來研商喔那"},{"start":8839.514,"end":8866.475,"text":"第九位那個全教會的林老師呢也特別提到就是對這個草案的看法那也提到管教現場的一些困境那還有提到這個過渡性教育措施有一些缺乏一些資源其實我們在這個參加今天公聽會之前我們也跟國教組這些相關的也在提其實我們現在有一些課程其實很不錯那這些這些孩子他回去之後"},{"start":8868.156,"end":8889.347,"text":"學校裡面我們從資料裡面看到其實現在我們補助大概每年大概一億七千萬協助那個國中小學其實來做這些比較有多元化的一些課程讓這些沒有辦法安安靜靜坐在教室做一般學習他能夠有機會去學一些比較活潑的課程那這一方面我們其實"},{"start":8891.608,"end":8911.635,"text":"這個草案還沒設立之前我想我們會跟國教署談怎麼樣子擴大這方面資源的補助以及相關的那個課程有沒有辦法有進一步的模組化提供學校現場有更多機會來學習那麼來開設這些課程來吸引其實這些不管是從哨管所後來回到"},{"start":8912.575,"end":8937.853,"text":"學校或者說在社區安置的這些少女都有機會去學習跟接觸那那個人本的校務館長也提到其實社區的這個資源其實是很重要啦那我們現在確實各縣市都有所謂的辭彙班資源性的中途班跟合作式的中途班那社區安置的功能很重要那這些課程在還沒有這些轉今天提出這個草案"},{"start":8938.953,"end":8955.869,"text":"之前其實我們在學校裡面也都在每年都投注了很多的資源來做這些課程的一個開設將來我們也會再跟各單位來討論看能不能繼續優化這方面課程的開設那最後那個謝"},{"start":8958.947,"end":8973.358,"text":"謝家仁我們的那個少年調查主任保護官那有提到現在的這個少年的司法處理的一些問題我想我們政府是跨單位的教育司法跟保護未來我們當然"},{"start":8974.761,"end":8990.102,"text":"要不要成立這個署第四個提供這個我們都尊重司法單位的一個看法那我們將來也會提供教育部的意見來收集意見來提供那以上是我很仔細的聆聽當然沒有辦法一一的回覆不過這方面"},{"start":8990.362,"end":9010.4,"text":"我們跟大家一樣都希望台灣的少年在面臨環境的改變這麼巨大改變犯罪的成因也好或者說像類似楊爸所受到的這樣子的一個不幸的事件我們都希望能夠避免那如何跨部會的來合作我們會持續來聽取學校現場的意見家長團體的意見以及我們專家學者的意見謝謝主席今天來召開公聽會謝謝"},{"start":9016.256,"end":9027.054,"text":"好 謝謝張亮萬堅政務次長接下來因為剛剛很多專家學者談到很多有關於司法院跟法務部的相關業務我是不是先請司法院鐘鐘林廳長來做回應 謝謝"},{"start":9042.539,"end":9069.55,"text":"主席好各位立委好各位先進大家好各位老師好剛剛聆聽了所有各界的發言我們也詳細做了摘要筆記對司法院的一個改善將來的精進跟馬上要做研議的內容我非常感謝我們所有的老師所有各界給我們的建言"},{"start":9070.45,"end":9091.921,"text":"但在開始之前我還是要對楊爸表示我們少年司法有很多地方一定要立即改革改善才不會造成像楊爸這樣二度三度的傷害我很心痛在這裡跟楊爸表示對不起"},{"start":9093.728,"end":9109.766,"text":"我們組成專案小組來改革這些缺失我逐一做幾點重大回應首先有關少年刑事案件這樣的資訊資料Data"},{"start":9111.508,"end":9128.736,"text":"那麼他受限於兩個法律的明定所以我們現在想要從修來突破第一個就是少年刑事案件他是採少司法27條的逆送就是全部由"},{"start":9130.597,"end":9152.878,"text":"規定五年以上另外一個是例外有法官裁量那麼五年以上經過調查才會送檢察官那麼這樣的案就是經過兩層的過濾所以他在佔整個少年司法的這個案件數量就會比較少"},{"start":9153.539,"end":9174.101,"text":"大部分90%都是少年保護事件那10%左右是刑事案件這是第一個說刑事案件怎麼都看不到這麼少第二個就是少年司法在法條明定說有關少年資料的保護"},{"start":9175.582,"end":9200.144,"text":"運用統計分析是由司法院來主管來掌理那這個所定的細部法規目前是沒有擴及來給學者研究也沒有擴及給我們相關議員犯罪的機關那我們曾經委託大學研究以後我們去識別化"},{"start":9201.205,"end":9223.552,"text":"實驗的結果覺得可行 將來要去世悲話不要讓受害者或加害人受到傷害之下這個隱私之下 讓這些能夠公開這樣也可以促進少年司法形式的進步 也可以"},{"start":9224.412,"end":9249.719,"text":"對於法官的監督也是一個很重要的層面比如說楊爸在很多的主張裡面在少年刑事裡面審酌量刑都沒有看到楊爸的主張我們已經開始規劃原理這種所謂的量刑準則的參考規範要納入平衡性的"},{"start":9251.62,"end":9272.951,"text":"審酌少年的部分你要審酌被害人的部分這是很重要的部分第二部分就是說保護管束是叫做社區主義就是說一個孩子他是可以自由的沒有在一個機構裡面把他自由約束的"},{"start":9273.311,"end":9298.221,"text":"他是可以回家可以去學校可以去工作那這個工作這個保護管束不會依照他犯罪情節的輕重而是依照這個他所欠缺的需保護訊我們換一個話講叫做他的危險因子很高的話縱使是一個小小的竊盜"},{"start":9299.602,"end":9326.428,"text":"也一樣要做保護管束保護管束是多面向而且多資源來進行的所以在執行保護管束期間仍然可以開啟了教育單位 社政單位還有我們的衛生單位還有我們的這個有勞政單位司法單位一起整合開這種資源會議那警政要不要進來 當然"},{"start":9327.628,"end":9347.663,"text":"因為如果他的危害社會危害人民很高這個就要進入這種嚴格的監督期這是第二部分那第三部分就是說這個目前我們已經把全國的這個保護管束的少年分類為高風險少年"},{"start":9351.886,"end":9369.185,"text":"中高低中高那這個剛剛林教授的指正我們很感恩他是一個專業的研究我們已經啟動了所謂的具有性效度的一個"},{"start":9371.447,"end":9392.987,"text":"篩選出危險少年的量表那這個要有性效度所以我們也召開了這個學者的一個這個所謂的性效度的一個審查會議那剛剛教授講的很重要我們應該要委託研究那目前"},{"start":9393.747,"end":9415.241,"text":"我給各位報告 目前不會讓每一個法院一人一把號各吹各個調我們已經把它改為全國統一的一個有性效度的量表那這個量表已經進行一年的研究實測那麼已經在做專家效度的一個檢測"},{"start":9417.762,"end":9434.984,"text":"那我們有委員也很關注要我們把這些資料送給他審查那這是有關高低風險那我要跟各位報告這個高風險的少年許多就是在國中高中就學"},{"start":9435.885,"end":9461.584,"text":"所以我們也注意到了這個主席所帶領的委員所提出來的這一份國民轉介教育條例裡面有三大重大評估第一個就是高暴力的學生造成學校沒有辦法來推動正常的授教師生高暴力第二個就是非常"},{"start":9462.705,"end":9490.055,"text":"平反的霸凌霸凌的學生第三個就是常常攜帶各種危險器械而且哪種危險器械去做威脅恐嚇這三大類在我看國民轉介教育條例裡面列為這個審查會要審查學生的重點那麼司法院也在這樣的前提下納入這個"},{"start":9491.676,"end":9499.767,"text":"高風險少年的一個重大指標重大指標當然我們還有一個指標就是說一直"},{"start":9501.467,"end":9530.254,"text":"跟有犯罪習慣的人往來這個叫做不選少年嘛現在把它拿掉剛剛林教授有講那這個部分他不回家他都到這種團體去這種團體暴力團體 討債團體或詐欺團體那這個我們納入高風險納入高風險我們就隔離他的環境因為他家庭裡面沒有功能那隔離環境就會涉及這一部國民轉介教育條例的重要性"},{"start":9531.134,"end":9558.022,"text":"這個重要性當然這裡我們做法律研究就是說由這個組成的審查會審議會來審審完就把它做一個處分要把它送到這樣的一個轉介就是所謂的一個過渡性教育措施去那它定為一年這個草案定為一年那麼"},{"start":9559.522,"end":9587.103,"text":"但涉有可申訴但是呢初步在法律人就是會有一個憲法第八條如果我們給他強行住在因為他這個是強制性的強行住在一個機構裡面那就是剝奪他的人身自由那第二個就是也剝奪他正常的受教權但這一部法強調在這個轉介機構裡面要有正常的教育內容"},{"start":9589.084,"end":9611.512,"text":"當然更強調各種角質這個是非常重要的我們少年司法已經推動了兩年高風險的一個輔導我們已經把它分類統計出來114年裡面每個月有680位左右篩為高風險"},{"start":9613.473,"end":9623.896,"text":"那這高風險每個月的輔導之下用這樣實測的量表跟所有我們委外人力的一個執行會議裡面有36位會降風險當然還不夠高"},{"start":9630.298,"end":9656.71,"text":"680位有36位降風險大概會有這個十幾位是升高風險送感化院還有送隔離那其他的風險是維持在一個頻那這些能不能進學校就是目前各個縣市推動的一個簽約之下有一個這個轉介的中途這個學校"},{"start":9657.31,"end":9676.817,"text":"那這個中途學校目前我們司法在進行中的一個困境就是因為目前各縣市都有在推這樣跟我們合作但他沒有夜間輔導照顧以至於這些孩子回家以後家庭沒有功能"},{"start":9677.757,"end":9698.973,"text":"他們沒有功能他就跑掉了所以隔天就沒有來報到了所以我們接到通報我們立即就啟動強制措施去找找到了又把它收容起來所以就會反覆有這樣的一個狀況目前已經進步到要感謝教育部進步到三個"},{"start":9700.534,"end":9720.147,"text":"縣市有夜間可以管教然後穩定的那這一部分是很重要那麼法官的部分剛剛有指教了很多我們開始設定很多辦案的準則跟注意事項然後在我們調訊裡面"},{"start":9722.128,"end":9739.66,"text":"都會除了上課以外有我親自帶領我們的法官團體去跟他們座談要求這些都要做到的具體作為作為審查考核的一部分那麼再來就是這個有關有關這個我們"},{"start":9744.793,"end":9769.885,"text":"關於這種保護管束中那麼已經發現他對人命的危險很高比如說他參加了這種暴力討債集團他隨時帶蝴蝶刀帶這個相關的刀械或者是他是就是所謂的討債集團那他常常就是"},{"start":9771.001,"end":9792.746,"text":"他的機車的短的棍棒這個我們開始做比較整密的去篩選篩選出來這樣的孩子一律隔離要不然不短暫隔離他繼續在這個裡面而且不能進入學校所以目前統計去年我們高達有100"},{"start":9795.447,"end":9814.019,"text":"22次的一個支援整合會議學校的老師輔導士甚至於校長都親自到各個少年法庭我們中央有一個收集統計的資料這個效能我們目前正在努力的推動最後一個剛剛在講到說"},{"start":9819.957,"end":9833.153,"text":"到底我國怎麼會那麼特殊那麼奇怪世界各國一定是三權分立審判機關不會兼行政福利行政己護絕對不會"},{"start":9835.837,"end":9848.927,"text":"那我國怎麼會在唯獨在少年法庭裡面設有一個福利幾戶的一個執行單位叫做調查保護室來執行這種"},{"start":9851.653,"end":9871.743,"text":"保護儲分那保護儲分有很多福利色彩喔比如說我們安置是國家我們市法院來這個這個預算然後呢我們在保護儲分的過程中保護管束過程中很多福利給予比如說他身心有狀況我們會結構性給他就醫這個"},{"start":9876.385,"end":9901.88,"text":"都是有相關的國家來支付再來就是他家庭發生變故一樣都有福利給付再來就是他要救血他的經濟很困難一樣都有這些給付那結果一手審判一手福利給付那在這個保護管束中又要把他抓起來做人身自由的一個約束就是因為他違反"},{"start":9903.081,"end":9922.869,"text":"所以剛剛大家在論述說是不是要成立關戶署這個在長遠來看應該要跟各國一樣它當然名稱可以研究但是把它定義為關戶署這個太狹隘了成年人在"},{"start":9923.849,"end":9945.557,"text":"假釋或反省的時候他要接受成人關戶成人關戶跟少年保護是不一樣的在日本在韓國在新加坡都不一樣的制度他是一個大的一個組織在國家預算給他很大"},{"start":9946.818,"end":9959.115,"text":"這個不管它叫保護的一個單位看是局啊 署啊或委員會那麼保護單位 然後下屬下面就有專門處理成年的這個關戶"},{"start":9962.239,"end":9990.549,"text":"那麼再來就是少年的保護少年的保護最重大的不一樣就是他在身心還沒有完全長到健全的時候他需要有更多的身心還有這個家庭還有關係的一個保護修復那成年的關乎著重在他再換預防以及他破壞社會安全的一個監控"},{"start":9991.129,"end":10018.826,"text":"不過國外在少年的保護裡面有一個強制措施是國內一定要趕快來做的就是什麼呢就是因為沒有功能的家庭那麼我們國內的安置機構不夠那只有送感染化驗可是孩子的一個反社會性還不夠那麼高危險性還那麼高那他可能要送到機構去做比較柔和的安置教養但是不夠"},{"start":10019.807,"end":10038.532,"text":"那不過呢 在歐洲 亞洲國家 讓他回家可是呢 做什麼 一例掛有手錶 月間十點法官發的令如果他跑出去了 違反了 整個國家中心對少年這一區塊跟成年是分開的"},{"start":10039.392,"end":10066.128,"text":"那這一發現就立即去追抓到以後大部分都跑到這種這種所謂的這個不良組織那這個就由法官裁定令入少年院就是感化教育那這樣的狀況下孩子所受到的約束強那我國在保護管束上回家跑到"},{"start":10067.128,"end":10096.193,"text":"黑道機構沒有任何這種科控監控所以效果很不好那麼甚至於夜間吸毒的效果都很不好他們立即去處理把孩子找到就驗尿還有做他的軌跡因為他帶有這個跑出去他軌跡到哪裡就可以查到那一個組織同時就把組織化解掉把它破壞掉"},{"start":10097.433,"end":10113.822,"text":"這是我們在國外的相關的比較法那最後我要做一個反省的說明少年司法多年來沒有修正那麼透過這一次哀傷思痛的反省"},{"start":10121.566,"end":10149.108,"text":"對楊爸很對不起對許多的NGO跟教授給我們的指證包括這個非常惡質化的少年的殺人是不是假設還要三分之一這個我們已經納入馬上要修法是不是在前科的塗銷上一律都三年都修不可以參酌世界各國有好多的觀察級分類"},{"start":10150.75,"end":10165.826,"text":"還有一種就是法官介入審查這個有非常多的我們要檢討還有被害人的傷害那麼深他不能把他的被害好好的"},{"start":10167.28,"end":10182.392,"text":"說明在法庭或者相關的地方訴訟參加我們也要嚴密進入檢討再來被害人他所委任的律師叫代理人少年的律師叫辯護人或輔佐人"},{"start":10183.152,"end":10203.22,"text":"少年律師都可以驗券為什麼被害人的律師不能驗券這個叫武器不對等我們認為一定要在這個地方痛定思痛來修改以上當然我國是簽約國世界兒童人權公約的簽約國我們不能違反所謂"},{"start":10205.317,"end":10233.472,"text":"世界兒權公約的三大原則第一就是要訂定特別的程序處理少年的處罰行為那麼在最後有特別程序之下能夠讓少年的司法標籤棄處進入這個社會但是這個棄處不是隨便的不是一律都一樣的這個是不可以的"},{"start":10234.392,"end":10257.771,"text":"那第二個就是不能沒有處罰的少年就把他抓來司法把他審理這個是違反世界CRC的公約的所以剛剛我們的林教授說在這個曝險少年怎麼會減收那也就是說我們在行政府島面的一個建構跟他的一個"},{"start":10258.731,"end":10274.905,"text":"效度跟它的廣度跟它是需要加強的但我國是簽約國每四年國際人權專家都會來視察我國的各個單位的尤其司法的"},{"start":10275.586,"end":10300.776,"text":"人權 兒童人權裡面被最指證最多的就是標籤化太多然後司法沒有最後手段都是優先手段但我們都做到這樣了竟然沒有效能所以需要很深刻的把這一部少事法來檢討以及相關的法規那最後很重要的就是目前已經改了42條第5項42條第6項"},{"start":10304.737,"end":10321.651,"text":"審判中跟執行中少年司法要結合所有的單位的力量所以縣市政府的縣市長每年應該要跟各縣市的"},{"start":10322.592,"end":10346.27,"text":"法院的院長召開二級少年資源聯繫會議把它建構起來好好的為這些少年來去除這種社會的危害跟危險然後讓他能夠護歸社會 返回家庭那這個被害人的保護絕對不可以"},{"start":10347.411,"end":10365.03,"text":"讓他失衡了整個太天秤失衡了所以被害人的保護裡面包括這個這個所謂的主體權參與權申請參加權越建權還有陪同權再來就是他的"},{"start":10366.269,"end":10386.494,"text":"生前或者家庭的哀傷師的一個快樂生活跟被害以後的這種痛苦應該要讓他展現出來讓少年去體驗同理心悔過之心才能安頓這樣的一個少年司法"},{"start":10387.054,"end":10411.776,"text":"那麼修護士司法不能再傷害被害人我跟楊爸對不起我們的操作已經改變我們現在訂定新的規則方案一定是權控者不能促進權控者就是法官就是少年調查官等不能去促進修護士司法要交為專家的第三單位去促進"},{"start":10412.717,"end":10432.237,"text":"去促進這樣才能保護被害人才能讓少年不會說我法官叫我參加這個修飾我的罪就會輕一點沒有那回事我的刑就會輕一點沒有那回事那個關係的修復跟"},{"start":10433.078,"end":10457.206,"text":"Mediation的這個調解的賠償是不一樣的完全不一樣的以上我先做這樣的回應那可能占用很多時間也漏掉很多地方但我們一定會仔細把這所有都看然後我們也很感謝主席他們提出了這一個轉介教育條例這個對於司法的操作"},{"start":10458.186,"end":10484.969,"text":"有明定過渡性教育措施是很重要可以連結結合的謝謝謝謝我們市法院的少年級駕駛廳的中林廷長很完整說明時間比較因為他講的都蠻重要可能大家想要知道所以給他時間比較久一點那再來就是剛剛有提到法務部的參事是不是請我們汪南君參事也做一個回應"},{"start":10489.542,"end":10512.958,"text":"主席各位先進各位女士先生今天有非常仔細聆聽各位的發言跟意見那其實我們深刻體認到今天我們討論的不只是個別制度設計的問題而是我們在面對青少年偏差行為的時候教育、社政跟司法三大體系要如何共同承接責任的治理課題"},{"start":10513.959,"end":10541.604,"text":"那法務部的立場很清楚在前端我們支持教育與社政體系強化預防與早期介入那在後端我們承擔司法處遇與復歸社會的責任那在中間銜接的地帶關鍵在於跨體系的連續處遇與資源的整合也因此不管是轉介教育制度還是關乎體系或者是其他相關的配套設計"},{"start":10543.104,"end":10562.087,"text":"核心都不在於單一相關單一的機關要怎麼樣來調整而是我們要如何讓整個國家對兒童少年的支持體系更完整不中斷所以本部將在尊重各主管機關的全責前提下我們會持續的跟教育部"},{"start":10562.948,"end":10583.564,"text":"衛福部還有司法院等機關協力從制度面還有實務面同步進進也讓每一位少年都能夠在適當的體系中被接住被引導而不是遺漏在這個制度的這個縫隙當中那以上說明我們敬請指教"},{"start":10588.258,"end":10600.828,"text":"好 謝謝那個汪參事那請問一下其餘列席機關代表有沒有什麼補充回應說明有沒有好 沒有那這個我這邊做一個結語因為"},{"start":10605.06,"end":10619.226,"text":"其實今天最主要是要針對國民轉介教育條例草案來做個討論但是內容也是涉及到校園安全還有一些高風險少年他要怎麼處理的問題那我先講我當初提國民教育"},{"start":10620.226,"end":10643.88,"text":"轉介教育條例草案其實是從教育的角度出發啦最主要真的是想要解決校園安全的問題那剛剛大家提了很多現行的做法或者是現行的做法的應該改進的地方我想各個機關應該都有聽到了啦相信各機關回去應該會討論出一個更完善的措施但是因為我一直沒有聽到要怎麼解決現在校園現場發生的狀況真的沒有聽到譬如說像洋霸"},{"start":10644.7,"end":10663.608,"text":"楊爸所遇到的問題那一位郭姓少年他就是一個從關戶所出來而且他可能帶刀上課然後會對學校造成威脅那在現行的機制底下好像沒有辦法對他怎麼樣那其他學校我常常也在一些影片看到有的學生都帶蝴蝶刀上課"},{"start":10664.548,"end":10689.144,"text":"在學生面前耍蝴蝶刀那影片po到網路上面去那如果你是那個學校的家長你不會非常擔心嗎或者是在學校裡面有的一些學生他是長期霸凌全班的同學那種小霸王那很多同學都很怕他家長也很擔心可是在現行的機制底下你也沒有辦法處理這個問題啊你什麼狀況底下才能夠解決這個狀況"},{"start":10690.265,"end":10704.471,"text":"就是那個可能那個少年高風險學生他犯法了他犯罪了所以你才能夠把處理他請他離開教育現場那這些都是我們現在教育現場所存在的不定時炸彈"},{"start":10705.875,"end":10730.85,"text":"那我們要怎麼去解決這個問題其實剛剛我聽了半天我沒有聽到任何解決這個問題的辦法我真的沒有聽到那大家都常常講說像剛剛講的這些高風險學生的受教權很重要我也覺得他們受教權很重要可是那他所存在的班上的其他學生的受教權呢我覺得這也是很重要啊我們也應該要保護那些想好好上課的學生啊"},{"start":10731.653,"end":10755.169,"text":"那尤其是老師,如果一個班上有這樣的同學,老師要怎麼去處理他老師現在在學校也是很弱勢,剛剛也有很多專家學者也有提到這個狀況老師可能也沒有辦法管,或者是說管人太兇又被投訴等等等等所以我覺得務實的來面對這個問題,所以我才會提出這個國民轉介教育條例"},{"start":10755.689,"end":10783.145,"text":"那當然我們已經有考慮到那些高風險少年的人權跟受教權的問題所以其實這個條例所處理的對象其實是非常限縮的是限縮在比如說有對教師跟學生實施強暴威脅恐嚇暴力行為的這些學生這是已經攸關其他師生的生命安全了嘛或者是剛剛講長期霸凌其他同學那你會造成其他同學的身心不健康啊如果班長有這樣一個學生的話"},{"start":10783.945,"end":10810.202,"text":"或者是他常常攜帶危險器械然後會嚴重危害校園安全其實這個條例已經把狀況限縮在這個部分那至於說剛剛有專家學者提到說我們現在有慈輝班我們有資源是中途班或者是合作是中途班對我也知道但問題是這些中介教育組織他們所處理的跟我想要處理的是不一樣的對象"},{"start":10810.962,"end":10838.668,"text":"他們想要處理的對象應該是中錯身或者是適應不良或者是他並沒有危害到其他同學的生命安全他不是班上的不定時炸彈也許是他自己在學習方面有一些適應的問題所以他也許可以用現行的中介教育去處理但是如果我剛剛講的那個狀況在現行狀況是沒有辦法處理的至少我剛剛沒有聽到啦所以我們才會提出這個國民教育短介教育條例希望能夠讓"},{"start":10840.953,"end":10862.962,"text":"原來的班上的師生可以好好的比如說老師可以好好教書然後同學可以好好的學習這是我們提這個版本的初衷那至於說技術面剛剛很多非常感謝就是非常多的專家學者提出很多在在技術就是不管是各個措施啊或技術方面層次的建議我覺得都非常好"},{"start":10863.402,"end":10872.432,"text":"比如說課程應該要有怎麼樣的課程然後應該要怎麼處理這些我們全部到時候在修法的時候我們都會納入考慮然後我還想要強調一點就是"},{"start":10875.543,"end":10904.365,"text":"我這個我們所提出來這個由教育部所設立的這個專屬學校其實也是希望讓那些高風險就有剛剛前述那三項就是有暴力行為等等強欺霸凌學生這些學生可以得到更好的資源所以才會希望說由教育部成立一個專屬的學校那他就是一個學校就他不是一個像大家所想像的他只是把他丟到一個地方去關在那邊然後讓他好像跟他"},{"start":10905.903,"end":10933.695,"text":"從他原來的學校把他隔離,沒有啊他可以是一個很好的學校啊那就看教育部怎麼去辦嘛他可以把這個學校辦得很好那這個學校如果辦得很好的情況之下我們把那些比較有危險的學生轉到那邊去讀書那他在那邊得到很好的教育啊他也不見得想要轉出來啊搞不好他去了之後一年兩年他覺得在那邊畢業很好啊他是正常的教育啊,108課綱啊他是正常的教育啊"},{"start":10934.275,"end":10949.765,"text":"所以這個是一個你怎麼做的問題是怎麼做的問題所以再一次感謝所有的專家學者今天提供非常多的意見那我們這個法就是剛剛大家有講就是說我們現在有中介教育有矯正教育可是中間銜接沒有銜接"},{"start":10952.046,"end":10965.585,"text":"所以我希望提出這個條例然後來解決我剛剛先接的問題不要說等到高崩姐學生犯法了然後才把他變成矯正教育那犯法一定有人受害啊那受害的學生就應該嗎就活該就倒楣嗎"},{"start":10968.189,"end":10987.766,"text":"所以這是我們這個法的初衷那今天是第一次公替會當然這個修法一定還會有像今天大家提出意見一定也有機關還會有回應或什麼之類我們希望這個法可以更完善所以希望日後如果還能夠召開相關公替會再請大家來發表意見然後非常感謝大家今天的參與"},{"start":10990.989,"end":11019.609,"text":"依據立法院職權行司法第58條的規定委員會因與公聽會終結後10日內依出席者所提供之正反意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者第59條規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案之參考本日公聽會到此告一段落感謝所有與會者從不同的面向提供諸多寶貴的意見今天各位的發言內容與所有的書面資料均列入"},{"start":11022.025,"end":11037.731,"text":"軍列錄記錄刊登公報並製作成公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及所有出席的與會人員參考再次感謝各位出席今天舉辦的公聽會所提供的寶貴意見我們會審慎考量作為未來修法之依據謝謝大家 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請重啟時間好 五分鐘 從事好 邱主委主委好邱主委上週我在院會質詢的時候台下一片民進黨立委高喊台灣中國一邊一國那我現在要請教邱主委根據現在的中華民國憲法還有根據您所主管的兩岸人民關係條例請問台灣跟中國現在究竟是兩個地區還是兩個國家 請回答"},{"start":30.312,"end":50.674,"text":"我們剛也提到了跟陳文仁報告我們是依照中華民國憲法以及徵修條文還有兩岸關係來處理兩岸事務我們認為我們中華民國當然是一個主權獨立的國家我們台灣從來不是中華人民共和國的一部分"},{"start":51.912,"end":56.336,"text":"中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬憲法跟人民關係條例根據這兩個法你認為台灣現在是兩個國家還是兩個地區請你就我的問題回答"},{"start":66.721,"end":87.422,"text":"我剛已經說過了,兩岸關係就是兩岸關係,我們就是依照中華民國憲法和兩岸處理兩岸事務我一向主張一邊一國,但這是必須透過憲法跟修憲才能達到的這是沒有人可以否認的事實但是主委你竟然我剛也說了,中華民國以中華人民共和國"},{"start":88.263,"end":111.409,"text":"共和大陸的戶籍就會喪失台灣人身份包括選舉跟擔任公職我想請教你是什麼哪一部法律授權你這樣一位行政機關來解讀立法院的立法委員的資格跟他的職權請問你依據哪一個法令來解釋立委的資格跟職權你只要回答是依據哪一個法令"},{"start":112.369,"end":124.196,"text":"報告陳委員我們處理有關於兩岸人民權利義務的法典就是我們兩岸人民權利義務我們是主管機關我們陸委會是兩岸條例的主管機關沒有人造成行政機關可以解釋立法院的資格跟職權主委之前有民進黨立委提案要將"},{"start":136.923,"end":152.293,"text":"台灣跟中華人民共和國這兩個詞放到兩岸人民關係條例並且將憲法當中的在統一國家統一之前這個字也刪掉但是最後他請助理到議事院那邊把這些字用綠可泛"},{"start":153.874,"end":178.545,"text":"自己撤案了 我覺得很可惜如果能夠由和總統同一個派系的立委 政黨立委來提出落實一邊一國的主張 這個是別具指標意義那如果只這樣再來提出 我非常樂意幫忙連署請問主委 你支持兩岸條例中清楚定義台灣跟中華人民共和國嗎 請回答"},{"start":180.795,"end":195.11,"text":"跟委員報告,我想我們兩岸條例的修正,我想都有很多的社會各界有很多的指教也有很多的提案,那基本上站在主管機關的立場就是要有社會共識"},{"start":200.335,"end":216.588,"text":"主委你剛剛五分鐘前在解釋立法院的資格跟職權就你就不需要收入共識我現在只是請教你你支持這樣做法嗎在兩岸關係人民條例把台灣跟中華人民共和國把這兩個詞放進去你支持嗎我只是請教你支持嗎"},{"start":219.285,"end":239.275,"text":"跟委員報告,我們部委會就是依照現行的兩岸條例來推展兩岸...主委你沒有回答我的問題,但是無論在這個法案是民眾黨或是民進黨來提案,我想都可以提問題是如果他真的通過了,我請教主委,行政院會附屬嗎?賴總統會通過嗎?會公佈嗎?"},{"start":244.618,"end":269.107,"text":"請執政黨不要說一套做一套喔這個台灣中國一邊一國不是用喊的也不是在議場喊也不是在街上喊你必須要透過修法修憲才能夠進行的實際情況我們任何兩岸條例的修法都一定會透過立法院的程序也要結合朝野的共識全民的共識跟意志才會來推動您和沈伯陽立委不斷的提到"},{"start":269.687,"end":275.549,"text":"中華人民共和國的國家情報法認為說中國公民有義務要幫中國收集情資所以也依此來覺得說因為你們不承認他有台灣的國籍所以你們認為他也必須要這樣子做那你既然要講中華人民共和國的法律"},{"start":288.034,"end":314.189,"text":"就不要談半套,我來跟您談,請主委看一下這個畫面既然沈伯陽立委跟民進黨還有主委您都要談中華人民共和國的法律您剛剛接受記者採訪的時候也提到這一點那請問中華人民共和國國籍法第九條寫得很清楚定居外國的中國公民取得外國的國籍就自動喪失了中國國籍"},{"start":315.249,"end":343.281,"text":"這代表定居在台灣三十多年的並且在民國八十八年一九九九年就取得台灣身份證的李徵秀委員他在那一天當下就自動消失了喪失了中國國籍這麼清楚的事實內政部跟立委會都看不見嗎看不懂嗎依照民進黨立委的邏輯依照主委您的邏輯依照民進黨跟本身的邏輯中國的法律是法律你不能只挑只選"},{"start":344.581,"end":373.517,"text":"只講你要講的部分來做詮釋主委是謝謝陳委員的指教有關於您剛剛提到國籍法當然我們國籍法的主管機關是行政院是我們內政部我們內政部在解釋國籍法是把所有國人都一視同仁除了中華民國國籍之外當任公職一定要放棄中華民國以外的國籍不管這個是一個"}]}},{"id":"167781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167781","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a408894aaa9e35fc678568ba5efa48cb629cbc3a6108f1e633b12e6e223e8e7575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:06:22 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是不是請決定秘書報告出席的委員人數報告委員會出席委員與組法定人數好 我們宣布現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次的會議紀錄"},{"start":1448.188,"end":1466.895,"text":"立法院第十一屆第五會期財政委員會第三次權力委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十五年三月十八日星期三九時至十二時二十四分地點群憲樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林德福等十四人列席委員鍾嘉斌等九人列席官員金融監督管理委員會主委彭金榮"},{"start":1467.695,"end":1492.975,"text":"所屬機關首長及中央存保公司監管相關機構有關資財團法人各公司等董事長總經理主席吳昭吉委員秉瑞報告事項一宣讀上次會議事錄決定議事錄確定二邀請金管會金融監督管理委員彭主任委員金融率所屬機關首長及中央存保保險股份有限公司監管相關機構有關資財團法人台灣證券交易所股份有限公司"},{"start":1494.576,"end":1515.31,"text":"臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告並備諮詢。經金管會主委彭金龍提出報告後,藉由委員林德福等18人提出諮詢。均經金管會主委彭金龍、證交所董事長林修敏、櫃買中心董事長簡立中及相關人員予以答覆。"},{"start":1516.531,"end":1530.841,"text":"決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請金管會於一周內以書面答覆委員力邀請期限者從期鎖定三 委員楊瓊瑜所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請金管會以書面答覆宣讀完畢"},{"start":1533.763,"end":1551.869,"text":"好的 請問在現場委員對於議事物有沒有意見沒有 好 沒有的話那我們就議事物確定好 那我們請議事人員宣讀今日的議程討論事項 審查本院台灣民眾黨黨團委員林思敏的二十一人分別擬具虛擬資產服務法草案等兩案 宣讀完畢好的 那我們現在就開始針對於"},{"start":1561.021,"end":1586.075,"text":"好 我們先介紹在現場的委員第一位 先介紹我們財務會的吳秉瑞 吳昭緯以及在現場今天有提案的林思敏 林委員謝謝 接下來我們在左邊的官員有我們金管會的主委彭主委 彭金榮 彭主委"},{"start":1589.195,"end":1592.556,"text":"我們金融市場發展及創新處的林處長我們銀行局的童局長我們證據局的高局長我們保險局的王局長我們檢查局的賴局長我們證交所的林董事長歡迎董事長總經理"},{"start":1619.448,"end":1646.522,"text":"林总经理 欢迎还有我们购买中心的简董事长 欢迎总经理 陈总经理 谢谢 欢迎还有我们央行业务局的谢局长欢迎谢局长我们外汇局的蔡局长欢迎蔡局长我们国库署的李组长"},{"start":1650.154,"end":1673.824,"text":"副稅主的苏副组长所得税主的胡副组长我们法务部谣调部的调查部的检察官杨检察官好以及我们非常资深才贵的林德福林委员"},{"start":1677.469,"end":1694.902,"text":"好謝謝介紹完我們在現場的所有的朋友那我們接下來就開始我們今天會議安排審查虛擬資產服務法等兩岸我們先請提案委員做提案的說明第一位是不是先請林思敏委員做提案說明三分鐘時間三分鐘"},{"start":1702.386,"end":1721.683,"text":"好 謝謝主席首先關於本法的立法背景與必要性提出說明近年來虛擬資產快速發展以由早期單純的支付工具逐步轉型進去投資金融商品及跨境交易功能的新型態資產依照國際貨幣基金統計全球虛擬資產市場的規模曾經達到2.5兆美元以上"},{"start":1730.41,"end":1747.743,"text":"即使歷經市場的重大波動,仍維持逾1億1兆美元的規模,顯示虛擬資產已成為不可忽視的全球金融體系的一環。我國市場意義同步成長,相關交易規模與投資人數逐年攀升,"},{"start":1748.544,"end":1769.039,"text":"甚至於我們重大的國際事件 譬如說交易所的倒閉中我們顯示我國投資人的參與程度均極高潛在的風險與制度缺口亦日益彰顯然而我國目前對於虛擬資產的監理仍以零散的規範為主缺乏專法的一個體系"},{"start":1770.44,"end":1796.191,"text":"導致業者進入門檻與監理的標準不明投資人保護機制不足市場資訊透明度不夠跨境與新型態如DEFI難以有效管理因此為健全市場的發展提升金融監理的完整性保障交易人的安全並促進金融科技創新使有制定專法的必要"},{"start":1797.051,"end":1818.248,"text":"本席的提案是為建立我國虛擬資產的監理制度以達成下列的目標第一 建立虛擬資產市場的秩序與監理架構第二 強化虛擬資產服務業者的管理與責任第三 保障投資人及交易人的權益第四 提升透明度與資訊的揭露"},{"start":1823.112,"end":1845.502,"text":"第五 促进金融科技创新与国际的接轨总计本席的提案有七个章节总计53条敬请各位委员支持以上谢谢谢谢林思敏委员的提案说明现在先请金管会的彭主委回应我们委员的提案内容"},{"start":1851.84,"end":1880.842,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位媒體先進 大家早今天貴委員會審查台灣民眾黨團林委員 施民等21人分別擬聚資虛擬資產服務法草案曾貴委員會邀請提出報告以下僅就金管會意見進行說明 進行指教近年來世界各國相繼將虛擬資產服務商及穩定幣納入監理架構如歐盟MICA 韓國虛擬資產用戶保護法日本支付服務法等"},{"start":1881.977,"end":1906.486,"text":"我國專法草案已於114年6月27日呈報行政院行政院已完成審查,待依行政程序完成送大院審議專法重點,依強化VASP的監理,明確定義VASP的類型、範圍經營的財務、業務、聘用人員資格、內部控制、集合制度、資安制度與營運持續政策及財報、申報等規範"},{"start":1910.247,"end":1931.668,"text":"規範穩定幣發行及管理事前需取得金管會及央行許可境外發行穩定幣若與我國VASP交易也需經金管會同意必須維持十足準備資產定期查核資訊揭露確保運作透明防止市場不公正行為明定不得有虛偽隱匿操縱價格等不公正行為並設有嚴格刑責與罰金規定"},{"start":1935.049,"end":1954.936,"text":"推動專法可強化交易人權益之保障提升台灣國際競爭力對我國虛擬資產發展健全發展有重大注意有關民眾黨版本及領委員版本與行政院目前完成審查版本基本上方向一致僅就部分差異內容說明如下"},{"start":1955.896,"end":1970.794,"text":"有關主管機關因參酌創新實驗辦理情形每年於年度終了三個月內向立法院提出檢討報告部分現行創新實驗條例已有類似規定原建議可回歸前開條例辦理"},{"start":1973.322,"end":1991.791,"text":"另有關開放虛擬資產衍生性商品服務及其他配套條文部分對VASP之監理因採循序漸進、審慎之態度推動現行VASP專法第六條以明定包括其他主管機關核定之虛擬資產服務之彈性考慮虛擬資產衍生性商品風險較高未來將視我國市場狀況"},{"start":1997.854,"end":2002.84,"text":"業者專業能力 尊法程度及國際監理趨勢適時研議開放有關明訂給予現行從業人員符合資格條件是緩衝其部分"},{"start":2010.205,"end":2033.096,"text":"人員資格性質緩衝期已於授權執法中訂定未來於訂定授權執法時將與業者充分溝通討論令明訂VASP應建立必流分析專責人員部分考量VASP業務性質及內容各有不同令新增必流分析人員系屬人員管理之技術性及細節性事項可於執法中訂定"},{"start":2034.136,"end":2053.452,"text":"另有關明訂虛擬資產服務商與客戶簽訂契約因進行商品適合度分析、風險揭露、風險預告及違反之契約效力部分未來金管會可依《金融消費者保護法》第三條第一項規定公告違該法所定之金融服務業是可回歸《金融消費者保護法》辦理為宜"},{"start":2054.193,"end":2071.413,"text":"另外條文中為民定非經主管機關同意之虛擬資產虛擬資產交易商平台不得提供服務部分以及為民列穩定幣發行因應規定申報發行資料建議納入令民定設置虛擬資產基金清償客戶損失部分"},{"start":2072.925,"end":2088.396,"text":"現行我國金融安全網制度的設計主要是維護金融系統及資本市場的穩定如存款保險證券投資人及期貨交易人保護基金亦有透過業者自行管理及共同提撥資金建立基金的方式"},{"start":2089.336,"end":2112.234,"text":"觀察國際虛擬市場發展尚無類似安全網設計之前例多採自主提撥用戶資產安全基金或採資產隔離制度又VASP類型差異甚大已有不同之考量令虛擬資產交易價格波動劇烈當比照金融或資本市場建立金融安全網不僅執行困難如設計不當、易生又發盜的風險之疑慮"},{"start":2114.696,"end":2136.391,"text":"因此對於設置虛擬資產基金的必要性投資性已以審慎明定主管機關定期邀同業工會及學者專家討論各項辦法或由同業工會提出修正建議部分考量現行其他法律尚無類似規定如增訂使條文屬法制上之重大變革"},{"start":2137.659,"end":2145.75,"text":"令明定因納管關鍵意見領袖KOL部分可於金融消費者保護法授權執法中加以規範"},{"start":2147.154,"end":2173.035,"text":"為力強化對VASP之管理及推動穩定幣之發行金管會已提報虛擬資產服務法草案經行政院審查完成並納入優先法案預計於本會期報送大願未來立法院通過實施後將有助於保障交易人權以及發展我國虛擬資產市場培育相關人才懇請各位委員全力支持行政院版本以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2178.611,"end":2201.716,"text":"謝謝主委感謝主委對於兩個黨團以及林思明委員所做的提案做的回覆接下來我們開始做詢答每位出席委員發言時間八分鐘必要時可以延長兩分鐘列席委員發言時間是五分鐘我們今天十點截止發言登記現在依登記的順序請登記的第一位委員林德福委員質詢"},{"start":2218.275,"end":2229.881,"text":"謝謝主席這個彭主委還有所有列席的相關的這些官員還有我們各位同仁是不是首先我們來請彭主委請管會請彭主委"},{"start":2238.434,"end":2256.524,"text":"國外曾經有虛擬資產借貸的平台透過高息賬戶的吸金最後資不抵債申請破產造成投資人的損失有法律專家建議說虛擬資產服務法草案"},{"start":2262.401,"end":2285.448,"text":"明文的來排除銀行法第29條之一的適用那以避免那個虛擬資產發行人與服務商不必要的困擾那我請問金管會依目前我們整個金管會送行政院審查的這個虛擬資產服務法草案版本訂定虛擬資產借貸商"},{"start":2288.189,"end":2303.315,"text":"是否就算明文規定排除銀行法第29條之一的規範針對虛擬資產借貸利率主管機關是否有這個會定定指引或干預你有什麼看法"},{"start":2303.995,"end":2332.486,"text":"謝謝委員關心 剛剛確實沒有錯這樣比如說過去在我們虛擬資產服務商沒有納管的時代那對於這些所謂的上面一些交易行為常發生很多弊端我想各位都在這個都看到過去很多事件這也是為什麼各國現在要加強管理在我們現在的這個院版的草案裡面對於各種VASP的形態裡面確實有一個借貸商這借貸商呢我們會有個專門的執法針對這部分包括他"},{"start":2333.166,"end":2353.491,"text":"未來可能應該所有的營業規範還有它相關的一些這些運作的模式都會比較用一個審慎嚴格的態度來看待這個畢竟這個借貸商本質上有槓桿以及所謂信用擴張的效果所以這部分我們會更嚴謹的態度來看待最重要就是因為你居然要綠"},{"start":2354.831,"end":2372.894,"text":"這要做就是一定要嚴謹本席是贊同虛擬資產納入專法來管理一來讓市場有一定規範可以遵循二來民眾使用虛擬資產商提供的這些服務也有"},{"start":2374.135,"end":2395.108,"text":"較多的一個保障因此相關虛擬資產立法必須要能達到保護投資以及整個市場健全由於實務上虛擬資產服務商會努力向散戶來推銷他的商品來吸引交易因此虛擬資產服務商與散戶之間"},{"start":2400.452,"end":2413.407,"text":"這個很有可能產生特別嚴重的這些資訊上的不對等不對稱的這些問題啊那金管會扮演重要的把關角色本席建議虛擬資產"},{"start":2416.01,"end":2426.347,"text":"這個服務業者未來也要納入永續金融評鑑的指標以利民眾選擇優質虛擬資產服務業者我請問金管會你的看法為何"},{"start":2430.815,"end":2452.767,"text":"謝謝委員我想說剛剛委員提到永續金融評鑑那這個部分現在是以金融業為主那現在我們虛擬資產剛初步實施我想確實建立制度維護投資人以及交易人安全這是我們在立法上最重要的一個目的那未來有任何可以促進這個市場健全的方式我們都可以"},{"start":2453.467,"end":2476.238,"text":"都可以來考慮不過這個東西會有階段性的這樣那個考慮應該是他現階段可能那個標準可能沒辦法先跟我們的金融機構這樣的一個方式來做不過資訊充分的揭露以及未來給予是非常嚴謹的管理應該是我們在這個對虛擬資產服務業者應該是是非常重要最重要對解決資訊不對稱的問題確實是"},{"start":2479,"end":2494.335,"text":"我是認為這個我們你們要是實施以後開始做我認為可以該做的要求的還是這個建基制的一定要做那個主委啊虛擬資產易受人"},{"start":2495.316,"end":2518.497,"text":"人為的一個操作或炒作那交易資訊不透明而且價格波動大投資風險高本席以購買基金為例基金價格波動風險由低至高分為五級來協助投資人判斷該基金是否符合自己的這些風險承受度"},{"start":2520.139,"end":2540.937,"text":"並要求投資人購買錢必須要填寫風險屬性問卷的KYC譬如問卷結果這個低風險承受度則民眾不能購買高風險的基金是保障民眾投資的一種機制那如果這個"},{"start":2543.441,"end":2559.47,"text":"這個未來如果這個虛擬資產服務商落地管理後這個民眾購買或使用虛擬資產服務商品是否也應該比照基金的風險將虛擬資產風險的程度分類並要求民眾購買前要做風險屬性的問卷那個金管會你們對這樣的做法您看法如何"},{"start":2570.616,"end":2597.369,"text":"謝謝委員我想對於這個因為其實整個虛擬資產服務的客戶有分各種不同的型態有些是這個專業的交易人有些是就像剛剛委員提到就是一般的投資人或是持有人這部分的話我們在我們的那個條文裡面確實剛剛做到剛剛委員提到就是所謂的KYC就是我們像我們現在是這是金融服務業裡面非常基本的一個要求"},{"start":2598.229,"end":2624.596,"text":"對於你的客戶他的風險屬性以及了解你的客戶推薦或是交易適當風險的產品這未來也會納入到我們的這個規範裡面好 我是認為要嚴謹本息關係 虛擬資產服務業者加入應用程式介面這個API調查機制的情形根據法務部11306月資料台灣高等檢察署"},{"start":2625.416,"end":2627.998,"text":"已經以4家虛擬資產服務業者建立API的查調這個機制並規劃擴大這個擴大"},{"start":2640.714,"end":2669.124,"text":"至其他這個虛擬資產服務業者那請法務部 法務部今天有派代表來嘛來做說明虛擬資產服務業者加入應用程式介面API整個調查機制最新的情況並說明是否有助提升整個基層檢查追查這個虛擬資產的金流偵查的效率今天那個"},{"start":2672.031,"end":2688.66,"text":"是不是請法務部 法務部啊我們楊檢察官因為未來虛擬資產服務法草案三讀通過後 法務部在要求業者配合查對不法這些金流上是否有更有約束力啊向委員報告考檢署現在我們有"},{"start":2696.841,"end":2723.007,"text":"檢察機關扣案虛擬資產平台監管平台2024年4月15號就正式上線所以在未來對於被告或犯罪嫌疑人所查扣虛擬資產都可以在安全的系統下被妥善保管他等待確定判決後才會將之沒收或發案給被害人以徹底剝奪被告犯罪不罰所得對不對好啦 那你就回去啦對那個"},{"start":2726.564,"end":2731.769,"text":"主委接下來我請問財政部今天有派人來嗎今天財政部有國庫署因為現在虛擬資產現在不是這個"},{"start":2745.866,"end":2759.23,"text":"虛擬資產現在不只是詐騙的工具它也是很多散戶投資人配置資產的工具比特幣前陣子的狂飆國內有很多人賺了大錢財政部"},{"start":2762.511,"end":2788.684,"text":"這個你可不可以說明針對國內投資人買賣虛擬資產的這些財產交易所得國稅局課稅情況以及啊追查他的漏稅的成果因為未來虛擬資產服務法草案三讀通過以後財政部會如何與虛擬資產業者合作協助業者民眾合法的報稅我想這點很重要你們可以做一個說明"},{"start":2790.305,"end":2811.218,"text":"報告委員,那這個只要有個人有這些虛擬資產一些交易的話就像委員講的,就是說他還是要依法去申報財產交易所得的那這個相關的這些資訊呢,我們到時候都會如果未來修法上路以後,我們都會透過一些管道去收集相關的資訊來去做一個合克的動作"},{"start":2811.638,"end":2825.894,"text":"因為民眾擔心虛擬資產投資血本無歸那我請問那個彭主委虛擬資產業者是否有需要成立虛擬資產業者的保存公司有沒有需要你認為"},{"start":2826.835,"end":2853.252,"text":"委員的意思是說類似像我們草案提到的有關那個類似我們現在金融安全網的設計嗎?那我們有提到過就是從我們也看國際發展比較快的這個市場它沒有設計類似像存保因為它畢竟比如說虛擬資產它是一個資產跟存款還是有點差異不過他們現在有一些替代的信任機制比如說像有些交易平台它就會按照它的營業額收入提撥一定的基金"},{"start":2853.812,"end":2882.094,"text":"未來在他們比如說這個平台被害被盜的時候產生這個損失由這個基金來做適度的填補來建立那個交易人的信心但我還沒有看到其他國家類似建立類似這樣存保的機制去針對虛擬資產交易不過它像我們現在法規裡面有提到就是說我們必須把你的虛擬資產跟你客戶你保管的必須隔離而且冷熱錢包之間必須要一定高比率的方式要放在冷錢包裡面就是做這些安全的機制"},{"start":2882.714,"end":2909.281,"text":"主委我是希望說既然要立法我們就要嚴謹那這如何去杜絕一些這個受詐的情形 欺騙的行為等等我認為這是很重要希望你們在立法的時候一定要很審慎很嚴謹委員指教都是我們這次立法的重點好 謝謝謝謝我們結束林德福委員的質詢接下來請第二位吳秉瑞召委"},{"start":2920.734,"end":2948.481,"text":"主席麻煩請金管會捧主委請金管會捧主委委員長早安早今天討論這個虛擬資產的這個管理的方法就剛剛大家也都提到最嚴重的是如何杜絕詐騙因為虛擬資產這是新興的東西很多人被詐騙的太陽有很多所以"},{"start":2949.451,"end":2974.081,"text":"看以前的案例 像去年就發生好幾件嘛S的王牌交易所的詐騙案嘛然後還有臂想還有很多上甚至是投放虛擬的那個假的廣告用名人詐騙等等這些詐騙案件你有想用什麼樣的方法是比較有可能可以至少壓制減緩或是杜絕"},{"start":2975.482,"end":3004.184,"text":"是 謝謝委員我想主要詐騙是過去很多人對所謂的虛擬資產第一個印象那確實是過去它很高度的匿名性那這部分而且在國際之間進行移轉那其實我們在這個當立法以後基本上第一個必須要做好嚴格的KYC就是誰來跟你做交易基本上這個帳戶這個錢包是誰的這個比如說這個交易平台跟你往來之間必須要知道這就是我覺得這個非常重要像剛剛委員提到就是說過去"},{"start":3005.144,"end":3032.968,"text":"現金跟虛擬資產之間的交易形成斷點我們在這邊也做了規範還有就是說基本上在實體跟虛擬之間必須透過我們監管的銀行跟我們的監管金融機構跟這個虛擬服務業者合作的時候我們可以透過這樣的方式來進行所謂的管制還有就是未來金流的部分怎麼樣流動都必須要申報我想這些都是很重要再來就是我們會透過國際合作的方式來進行這樣的一個防詐的工作"},{"start":3034.608,"end":3062.3,"text":"另外你現在一開始是主要是讓合法業者來申請然後組工會然後業者自主管理是然後希望他們能夠提升管理的水準你覺得這個未來走的方向如果你說讓台灣的投資者對於這個有信心的話我認為最後最後的體系是不是走到類似交易所這樣的制度"},{"start":3069.497,"end":3086.548,"text":"其實跟委員報告就是說其實上我們現在以我們現在的現有的這八家的經營形態裡面有大概四五家申請所謂的平台商他基本上就已經有類似我們的交易所的概念其實整個交易所是我們未來監管非常重點因為他是一個買進賣出跟資金資產移動的節點"},{"start":3089.17,"end":3113.584,"text":"那這部分的話當然這是在管理上也是特別的完整以及就是嚴格啦那當然這是一個市場機制當然透過比如說由公營或是高度監管的方式那當然對未來的管控是比較好但是我們現在看國際上大部分這些都不是由政府來管控不過即便是民營的交易所基本上到最後的話也是要受到非常高度的監理因為"},{"start":3114.825,"end":3137.444,"text":"無論是在英國或是無論在美國人家的交易本來就是他們就沒有像我們台灣這樣子的這個公家來弄交易所的制度啦我現在是講說那個信賴的問題你一開始事先這樣管理那這樣我們了解未來如果你有這個方向我們現在證交所啦OTC啦還有奇交所這些都是"},{"start":3138.445,"end":3144.629,"text":"至少在台灣的民眾相信說這是政府準公家在監控的單位所以"},{"start":3145.72,"end":3169.767,"text":"那樣的管理讓大家的信心是比較足的啦你如果讓業者自主的管理信心度的那個是會有我個人認為會有差啦那所以我的想像是說你現在一開始先初步這樣管理執法等等都去定然後大家是這樣走但是走到一定的程度之後也沒有可能公家來成立一個虛擬資產的交易所"},{"start":3170.347,"end":3185.149,"text":"我想未來什麼都有可能啦但是就等於說其實在初始階段我們市場上從登記制到現在我們市場上已經有一些經營業者在經營只是說現在我們過去是所謂類高度監理那現在會變成是真實高度監理"},{"start":3186.05,"end":3202.113,"text":"在這個過程當中 剛才委員講就是說其實整個去中心化金融裡面在國際的發展趨勢很明顯的中心化提供了信任比如政府的立法的管理還有就是透過政府公權力的介入都會產生一般民眾信任"},{"start":3202.794,"end":3228.544,"text":"的來源這也是其實某種程度也有助於這樣這個產業的發展我覺得剛剛委員提到我們是持開放的態度來針對這未來市場的發展不過我們現在先以市場秩序跟整個就是我們交易人的保護為主要的立法的目標好那因為你花了這麼大的力氣監管那如果能夠將來能夠成立交易所"},{"start":3230.014,"end":3248.074,"text":"公家的交易所將來很多年以後至少在政府的稅收上面也會有幫助你看現在我們的證券交易事實上因為政府我們是用採收證交稅的方式但是因為交易有一大那政府的稅收也能夠得到一些保障"},{"start":3249.444,"end":3272.136,"text":"那所以制度當然跟其他國家政所的制度不太一樣但是每一個國家有他自己的做法那我在想說如果能夠長期來成立的話長期的方向如果是這樣的話對台灣的未來也是會有所注意的第一個提升投資者的信任度、公信力第二個因為交易所如果是掌握在政府的手裡"},{"start":3273.601,"end":3295.975,"text":"至少可以很多方面的公式公信資訊這方面的那個要求的公開跟透明會比較高然後對交易者來講也會比較有保障好那我再請教你的問題因為我最近我們的服務處遇到的那個金融消費平益中心他平益文案件銀行不遵守"},{"start":3297.25,"end":3323.095,"text":"那你這樣子金融消費評議中心評議幹嘛他沒有存在的必要啊照理來講金融消費評議中心評議了如果當事人不服可以去法院告這是我了解問題那個是跟銀行之間有法律能力跟資訊的落差現在是評議了消費者接受銀行不接受那怎麼會有這樣的狀況所以我想這個"},{"start":3325.203,"end":3342.125,"text":"剛剛我們局長跟總經理也在,是不是請他們簡單的回答一下?各位報告,那個個案是TIF,TIF是不在評議中心的法效率裡面但是這個部分我們也會跟評議中心密切聯絡,只要是評議中心調處的案件,我們都會一件一件來檢視"},{"start":3343.442,"end":3361.943,"text":"他這個事情很離譜第一個是第一次調處那一間銀行我不要點名那一間銀行對金融消費平息中心譬如說要賠12%12%已經很低了DRF對台灣的損害傷害很大結果那一間銀行完全不理他"},{"start":3363.084,"end":3389.07,"text":"就後來他再申請第二次評議評議還是說應該要還那一部分這次評議降到10%只還他10%陳清仁也沒有意見啊說那你就照評議中心的評議處理就銀行還是不遵守如果這樣子的狀況一再的發生的話那你金融消費者評議中心就關門就好啦你的評議今天不是當事人不接受不是陳清仁不接受是你銀行不接受"},{"start":3391.271,"end":3419.31,"text":"那這樣子的話那金融消費平益中心給人家的感受就是找你也沒有用啊是不是會有這樣的狀況是 更委員幫過去285件裡面絕大多數銀行其實都會接受那對於少數沒有辦法接受的部分我們會跟平益中心來聯繫我們會一件一件來釐清銀行該負的責任就是要負責那了解清楚好不好我覺得平益中心坦白講如果照規定你們是找了一些專家來嘛"},{"start":3420.1,"end":3448.861,"text":"然後來評議他會做出評議而且陳述真的是不高那這樣的評議我相信有相當的道理啦那這個被評議的對象就是陳建仁來陳情來申請然後相對對照是銀行你知道那個權利義務是大家的那個是不對等的喔銀行是他無論在法律能力無論在各方面他都明顯告於這個當事人嘛那"},{"start":3449.98,"end":3462.238,"text":"金融消費評議中心所做的評議屢次不遵守然後一副不奈他何這個樣子那這樣子你們的法治是不是你覺得有沒有檢討的地方呢"},{"start":3463.101,"end":3479.919,"text":"因為這個部分目前是緊急於調處但即便是調處也是陳儒委員所說的這是評議中心所做出來的決定那非常具有高度的一個專業跟公信力那這個部分個案上我們會找銀行來跟我們說明清楚"},{"start":3480.814,"end":3502.088,"text":"好 謝謝當然當年的TRF這個危害到現在還沒有完全解決剩下少數數量不多的個案希望今晚會能夠努力因為我在第九屆立委的時候我列管要求他每個月要給我一個報表看你們已經解決了多少那現在已經第十一屆了這麼多年了那"},{"start":3503.532,"end":3525.879,"text":"這個尾巴剩下不多如果你們能夠處理完至少也告訴國人說我們DIF所有的生意都解決了這對我們國人來講說至少當年的錯誤已經有被矯正了至少被治療了一部分那個彭主委可不可以啊我們再繼續努力啦所以剛剛局長已經說了他會全力來協調這件事情好謝謝你謝謝委員"},{"start":3528.628,"end":3535.375,"text":"謝謝我們結束第二位吳秉瑞召委的質詢接下來請第三位林黛華委員的質詢好我們有請主委請鵬主委"},{"start":3549.954,"end":3566.508,"text":"其實是肯定我們櫃會當中你們去研理了這個虛擬資產服務法但是到底它是我們金融創新的保護傘還是境外巨頭的免死金牌所以也跟你做了一些詢問"},{"start":3571.049,"end":3591.059,"text":"好我們來看這個VSP這個洗房亂象這個合法業者少境外黑數多在合法合規的目前才8家這你們這個完成洗錢房子登記的但是呢這個境外黑數多達了30家的一個警示名單"},{"start":3592.899,"end":3620.549,"text":"我們這邊看到說你們的監管不章是在於你花了三年的時間112年到114年你才稽查了12家在去年的時候你在9月就已經你去年11月你裁罰了6家這6家當中有5家是你在9月的時候就告訴他說你不可以再提供服務了你要停業了可是他停業之後"},{"start":3622.253,"end":3644.567,"text":"不應該有任何的行為啊 可是他還是繼續執業啊所以呢你們就在11月的時候給他裁罰 這代表什麼你們儘管會是後事後決 也許在你的下達之前 裁罰之前他早就捲款跑路了包括你花了三年才查了12家那包括你的提供 你要對他裁罰是在你後續"},{"start":3647.008,"end":3653.25,"text":"已經列管停業的指令之下你還再給他裁罰那可能在他裁罰之後我就捲款重討了所以針對警政署刑事警察局針對DSP的經驗這個我一字不漏地就列出來"},{"start":3664.033,"end":3682.941,"text":"他說這個警察機關他有什麼困境呢第一個他對於交易平台這個所屬錢包的交易平台他沒有辦法掌握第二個我們虛擬資產的交易所都設在國外所以我只要透過跨國司法的互助其實我也得不到任何的回應"},{"start":3684.301,"end":3687.365,"text":"那第三個呢這個針對非託管的錢包本身這個錢包非在交易平台當中所產生的錢包我也沒有辦法得到他的身份認證第四個我的犯罪手法雖然你們即使未來會改為許可"},{"start":3700.1,"end":3719.777,"text":"但是還是有很多是以私人幣來進行的非法場外的交易的詐欺案件那詐騙集團也常誘導被害人說你要隱匿案情喔消費對話記錄及交易憑證截圖而且甚至讓被害人不願意配合報案來提供相關的證明"},{"start":3721.832,"end":3746.028,"text":"所以本席這邊要跟你請教的是全球加密貨幣交易所的排名全球前十大的虛擬貨幣的服務商在台灣沒有一家合法也並沒有全部是在台灣的這30家的警示名單內請教主委這樣的大型境外的交易所您要怎麼的控管呢"},{"start":3747.633,"end":3770.648,"text":"謝謝委員的關心其實剛剛委員提到的就是過去在沒有專法納管所鞭長不及的地方過去我們不可否認我們的虛擬資產服務業者在全球是野蠻生長包括我想各位都非常清楚去年美國GENES法案才真的約束到所謂穩定幣所以真正穩定幣也沒有在美國發行就是說我說在那個法律之前"},{"start":3771.969,"end":3793.52,"text":"那我想這也就是納管的重要性 剛才委員不管說交易平台的納管 還有在國外的幣商還有這些非托管錢包 確實剛才我們檢調單位遇到的困境這確實在過去 因為它是跟境外的交易所交易 但不在我們的管轄法下面那未來呢 我們就希望透過這樣一個立法 然後來達到這一點 剛剛委員提到就是說"},{"start":3794.48,"end":3821.374,"text":"境外這些巨頭那為什麼我們的監理態度我想在我們的那個草案裡面的第七條第三項我們就已經有針對就是說未來這個境外他可以在台灣有兩條路徑一個就是他可以來設立分支機構另外一個他直接可以來投資設立新的交易所或新的VASP業者我想我們過去這條路一直都沒有關閉一直都是存在包括以前登記錄主委講到這邊來那我就來就針對你剛才回答的"},{"start":3822.054,"end":3825.376,"text":"我右邊這一張這個報導它其實是教導守則這個非法的出金合法的業者淪為洗錢的終端右邊喔它這個網路上隨便說都是教學我境外的這個平台教育在台灣合規的業者也就是蔚蘭尼納館的業者出金"},{"start":3846.892,"end":3874.835,"text":"所以這些合規的業者就像是洗錢鍊的最後一端他要把錢領出來的時候前面他怎麼用我們也管不著反正就是怎麼洗洗洗洗到這邊來然後之後到台灣他要變錢成台幣的時候我們還有教學指引就右邊給你寫得很清楚好他們雖然完成了KYC但是對於前端來自境外高風險交易所的資金來源我根本還是無從查緝"},{"start":3876.716,"end":3897.346,"text":"那主委你怎麼看其實我們現在VASP業者現在我們台灣這個現在合法經營的八家都是我們洗錢防治法裡面的所謂的要嚴格遵守洗錢防治的比如說該來的資金流如何做登記如何做管理我想應該都是有在被管理主委我這邊只是提醒"},{"start":3899.027,"end":3919.179,"text":"這個如果是像這個案例產生你真的為了交易所能夠對於上端上端上端的這個洗錢的所有的錢包地址全部都能都能夠掌握嗎這我只是一個一個提醒你我覺得這個很困難其實沒有錯我已經提到那個就是我們國際賽講的Travel Rule"},{"start":3920.16,"end":3946.978,"text":"好 OK那當然你們的資產虛擬資產管理法當中有四個重點其實重點是在於對境外虛擬資產的服務商在台灣設立分支機構應該要得到主管機關的許可而且發給許可證照這其實是你們的重點那本席有三點要跟您就教就像幣安跟OKS這種大型境外交易所金管會要如何建立然後虛擬資產管理法如何能夠規範得到"},{"start":3948.439,"end":3966.033,"text":"第二個國內的這個VSP的業者呢依據資產管理法被嚴格的查核監理但境外平台根本不需要落地啊我也不需要納管啊我一樣能夠在線上收費營業啊那誰還要乖乖的申請你這一套許可證呢"},{"start":3967.872,"end":3982.79,"text":"主委如果不落地只要不落地難道就是境外巨頭的免死金牌嗎還是國人遭了詐騙之後我又如何來保護國人呢其實委員講到都是非常核心的問題第一個"},{"start":3984.175,"end":4006.586,"text":"第一個比如說我們虛擬資產它本質是一個跨國際的平台任何一個人有能力上網跟他做交易其實上我想這個就是在國際的但是不可否認的對一般人而言他假設要透過比如說我們合法的銀行的帳戶或是我們現行的交易所能夠很簡單的接近這個交易的話"},{"start":4007.846,"end":4027.398,"text":"還是以比如說我們現在的合規的這個比較好這也是為什麼很多國外大型的這些的所謂的B商他願意來台灣跟我們申請要落地否則他根本不用確實他們也不斷的跟我們接觸我想這部分確實是對啊如果像第一個嘛像B安跟OKS嘛也許B安跟你有接觸OKS沒有"},{"start":4028.979,"end":4041.096,"text":"那這個OKS你要怎麼去管理它呢那你的資產管理法怎麼規範的到呢類似但是OKS也夠大喔它也是全世界第三大行"},{"start":4042.071,"end":4058.534,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是說其實在國際金融上面它其實過去有類似的這樣的一個概念比如說我一個人有能力在網路上去購買其他國家的金融商品那其實上這件事情是個人的行為但它不會受到本國法律的任何的保障"},{"start":4059.375,"end":4081.506,"text":"那相對的 但是這種人相對比較少我們未來所要想像就是說我們有自己本地的監管體系我們可以讓大部分的國人很安心的也很自由的進行主委 這個我也是提醒就是說今天你有修了立了這個法就是要接軌國際但是我覺得對國人來講不在乎你有沒有接軌國際是我的詐騙能不能減少"},{"start":4083.587,"end":4106.664,"text":"這件事情我的錢透過這個虛擬的這個市場去交易之後我的錢能不能追回來這才是國人要的要不然你這個法通過其實對國人其實是無感的重點是洗錢房子當中我們能達到防詐的本意所以其實你也辛苦啦我說我也肯定你們修這個法但是確實有好多像本席剛才提的這三點其實是"},{"start":4107.845,"end":4131.027,"text":"你們要更花點心如何來保護國人的其實謝委員的提醒這些都是非常關鍵的最後我也一個結語就是其實由登記制強化建立為許可制其實在過去兩年的登記制當中我們的具體執法是不髒的所以未來修法後重研治理之後有效執法才是本法的重點"},{"start":4131.527,"end":4148.853,"text":"不要鬧到說我們最後台灣的虛擬資產服務法淪為管得到本土小於漏掉境外大白沙的窘境好 以上 謝謝謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝謝謝林代化委員的質詢接下來請郭國文委員謝謝主席 有請彭主委"},{"start":4163.427,"end":4188.842,"text":"我們今天要討論這個虛擬資產業者的這個專法之前本席想要先跟您對話的有關於這個金融科技業的這個分流的一個概念跟合流的一個問題也就是說呢其實我們在前年的時候有去日本的時候去參觀的相關業者主要的部分包括GMO跟SBI這兩個集團"},{"start":4190.643,"end":4217.549,"text":"這兩個集團的時候我們有把它制度面引進到台灣來有一定程度的一個制度的一個參考方式可是對照於日本跟台灣之間的一個概念來說台灣目前的這個金融科技業的部分是採取一種很分流的狀況這個分的過程當中呢卻又有大強小小強更小而且這種開放式的方式又是單向的方式以至於現階段來說我們看到"},{"start":4219.83,"end":4247.661,"text":"那個有一些電子支付業者本身有10家然後呢因為我們又開放了銀行38家業者下去可以做建議總共20家投入那目前現狀我們就談現狀就好了電子支付業者基本上真正啊賺錢的其實就只有一家LiPay而已LiPay本身是他因為他的會員很多啊這是他基本的優勢啊可是這種東西真的是一種屠殺的狀況到底啊我們的整個"},{"start":4249.943,"end":4270.445,"text":"整個我們金融科技的整個發展的路徑圖到底是什麼樣子老實講我看的不是非常的清楚第二個部分你接下來電子支付業者他又可以去從事匯兌業務匯兌他不是找本國他現在積極的想要介入這個移工的小額匯兌的部分那不是小的又搶更小的嗎"},{"start":4271.806,"end":4290.943,"text":"那現在的虛擬資產的部分 現實上真正有交易金額 老實說有三家而已簡單的這張圖就是一二三 右邊的部分一二三電子支付一家賺錢 移工的會停留在只有兩家的業務虛擬貨幣基本上真的有交易量就只有三家 看起來很多"},{"start":4291.764,"end":4307.936,"text":"但是實際上是很少那就是我們設定一個分流的概念那這種分流的概念的情況底下是不是一個好的現象或者是我們要現階段如果假設你真的要分流的話你是不是應該讓分流者都健康的成長之後再來考慮合流"},{"start":4308.476,"end":4324.165,"text":"而不是一分然後馬上又合而且是單項的合單項的合就是大吃小小吃更小而是單項小的不能去吃大的喔電子支付不能搶銀行的喔小兒會對不能去介入電子支付的喔那這就亂掉啦"},{"start":4325.643,"end":4335.221,"text":"對不對 主委我真的很想知道到底我們有沒有可能新的有一種金融科技的一個新的發展的藍圖的可能性否則的話會一團亂你的藍圖會變成江湖啦"},{"start":4339.554,"end":4356.112,"text":"主委 這是本席擔心的地方啊 要先跟你討論這個部分對 謝謝委員提的一個非常複雜的一個問題因為剛剛提到就是說我們剛才這幾種業態的過程它不是一次同時出現它是一個因著市場的環境逐一的發生的結果"},{"start":4356.733,"end":4372.711,"text":"再來一個其實我過去在長期研究金融科技我在學校的時候大概就是其實台灣的特殊的法治結構其實這樣是一個很關鍵的原因比如說過去我們任何一個執照都必須要有一個法律來支撐那比如說銀行法"},{"start":4373.231,"end":4396.251,"text":"那你要做到銀行的業務必須拿到他的執照除非你要做到他部分業務你還是要拿到一個銀行的執照那只好不斷的分化出其他比如說小額匯兌或電子支付那這件事情呢等於說我們是從既有的市場切出一塊針對未來的演進需要他只專做這一小塊我們給他一個執照一開始他就居於一個比較是"},{"start":4400.293,"end":4419.238,"text":"我們沒辦法像其他國家比如他的法制是一個很有彈性我直接給你一個新的業態去經營我想這是我們也觀察到的一個問題確實是我們先天上有一些限制但是所有的這種類似金融商品的話金融科技商品都是先有市場才有法制但是我們根本上台灣更"},{"start":4419.838,"end":4438.459,"text":"根本的問題是over banking的問題嘛我們本來銀行就太多嘛那銀行就是要搶業務結果就搶到電子支付電子支付又搶到這個小兒會對嘛所以大家撐不下去的時候就是想方設法那之後會變成一團大亂那因為有市場在轉入法治的過程當中主委您的角色就很重要"},{"start":4439.62,"end":4459.218,"text":"你要去如何宏觀調控這個金融科技業的產業發展的路徑藍圖我是希望在你這一任當中有屬於你的架構藍圖出來啦能夠在分流的前提健全之後再考慮合流而不是分了之後呢現在變成亂流而且是以大吃小的這種狀況我講的這個現狀你不否認吧"},{"start":4462.361,"end":4483.373,"text":"沒有我想喔 其實還是有點差異啦我覺得委員看到是一個現象確實是 我剛才講過就是說它如果是同時發展的話那當然他們各自沒有沒有 這現實上不可能同時發展嘛 對不對所以說因為現實上不可能同時發展這同時進入市場我就再舉更小的例子給你聽嘛我只是說這是它過去歷史因素導致的基礎本來就不太一致"},{"start":4483.533,"end":4498.33,"text":"所以說我們只能在事後在一個timing點來調用制度來做調整嘛譬如講我書移植說現在電子支付的話他的第三項要不就是可以辦理國內外的小額這個會對這寫很清楚嘛可是他的發展方向呢他不是針對國人"},{"start":4499.891,"end":4527.569,"text":"或者外國旅客他反而要跳過去已經做好的那兩家去搶他的業務那不是更亂搶下去以後就亂殺價嘛那這種生存的空間就越差嘛我舉的是這個例子好那我們再回顧到我們剛剛講了日本他開放那個VASP的這個部分的狀況日本在開放VASP的部分在開放這個虛擬資產的這個牌照的過程當中很重要的是第一個除了交易之外"},{"start":4528.51,"end":4551.691,"text":"第二個他是第一種經商委法院所謂的幹桿跟衍生性商品另外呢他們也因為市場後制度的情況底下他連電子支付都可以做甚至他後來還可以去那個那個成立所謂的網路銀行然後用銀行來發行這一個穩定幣也就是他會變成一個比較健全的金融科技業者"},{"start":4552.412,"end":4573.388,"text":"可是台灣現在我覺得看不出這種可能性啦然後不只如此喔那個主委你去看喔依照我們的條文精神當中喔依照日本那個部分我們去看考察的時候前年我們去看考察的時候他們因為屈原之後把整個交易量從30%降到5%那我們本來消費量就很少啦"},{"start":4574.048,"end":4601.014,"text":"如果按照我們這種方式的話都是採取一個相對穩健當然也是算是保守因為我們不想出事情的情況底下這種分階段的處理先通過魔法再通過執法然後再發照再輔導商戶那不知道要多久了這是第一啦第二個的部分呢在收入面的部分就只有維持第一個這一個交易而已簡單的交易買賣而已還沒有衍生性的商品"},{"start":4601.954,"end":4630.515,"text":"第二個呢 你成本又把它拉高你要到五億然後內積內控又要加嚴又雷同一特許行業這種情況底下也就是說我們看到我們在學習日本的過程當中日本進了我們跟著進日本不進了我們也在進所以說這種情況底下台灣的這個那個虛擬資產業者基本上所面對的困難性會更加的"},{"start":4632.073,"end":4649.904,"text":"嚴酷啊所以到底接下來很重要的關鍵啊老實說啦這三家能夠支持這目前八家當中老實說真正有比較大而已你也只有三家啦到底會維持幾家我個人啊 老實講我抱持著相當大的懷疑啦"},{"start":4650.504,"end":4673.234,"text":"那相當大懷疑的部分呢如果去銜接這一個產業你要如何去看待它也就是在第二個部分的可能性怎麼樣以及將來在分流健康情況底下以後在過一段時間以後大的一個趨勢當中合流的可能性就有待於這一個足穩你的智慧跟判斷還有政策的形成"},{"start":4676.549,"end":4701.549,"text":"剛剛委員提到有一點我們對虛擬資產服務業者其實我們並不是說專法執法才開始做其實我們這是跟過去很特別的我們已經開始有這個行業了我們開始才做專法所以各位注意看奇怪我們專法都沒通過為什麼市場已經有八家其實這已經做了一個非常彈性而且已經順應整個的這個做法不過剛剛委員提到就是說各個國家它確實有些可以值得參考"},{"start":4702.29,"end":4719.7,"text":"但是就像我長期研究金融制度我就知道任何一個制度的產生不是憑空出來的跟它的整個歷史因素有很大的關係我們的歷史不一樣不過它做出來的東西確實可以未來我們做個參考比如說剛才講各個業態我們所能做的當然不一樣但是我覺得好的地方我們可以來研究啦是啊"},{"start":4720,"end":4735.391,"text":"本席就在跟你對話這個我不是照抄啊當然我是說我們我看到了一些大的狀況我們的狀況是如此嘛你剛才不否定我剛剛的觀察嘛所以在不否定的情況底下是不是在做一些大跟小之間的區隔以及呢"},{"start":4736.031,"end":4757.351,"text":"分流之間的一個培養有一點育成的一個概念讓他們在沙盒實驗能夠更加茁壯的情況底下你已經放出去等於是沙盒已經完成的情況底下讓它更茁壯的情況考慮到未來有河流的可能性我覺得這或許是對台灣的整個金融科技業者比較好的發展路徑這是本席跟你對話的關鍵的地方"},{"start":4759.375,"end":4781.832,"text":"那剛剛委員提到的概念也是啊任何一個政府他開放一個行業都希望這行業能夠發展起來是否則他乾脆就不要開放是是是但就是說這個這個開放以後他自己經營能力跟市場能不能存活又是另外一個殘酷的對市場是一回事但制度也產生影響啊他會造成生態的不一樣啊或者是我們現在討論制度的時候有些委員的版本啊"},{"start":4782.532,"end":4808.529,"text":"硬梆梆的就定在說母法當中六個月就應該給他核准那有些應該放在子法就不應該放在母法不是嗎那當然他有一定的tempo要去處理的嘛對不對所以我是覺得齁主委接下來在討論這部法的過程當中我請你再回去稍微釐清一下到底我們的金融科技業的路徑要怎麼發展我期待你提出您的3.0的版本謝謝主委謝謝謝謝委員的指導謝謝"},{"start":4811.931,"end":4837.243,"text":"謝謝我們結束第四位郭國文委員的質詢接下來請賴會員委員謝謝主席有請金管會主委主委早安主委早安我想連續兩週等一下暫停一下暫停一下"},{"start":4842.304,"end":4842.533,"text":"那這次"},{"start":4844.332,"end":4872.805,"text":"好 主委連續兩週就是說我們都在提這個虛擬貨幣這一個專華我想大家都很關心這一個專華那事實上就是說歐美國家對虛擬貨幣的管理其實他們已經逐漸上了軌道那越來越興盛那我在這裡頭全球十大那個就是他的十大虛擬貨幣這些那個交易所列在這個地方"},{"start":4875.227,"end":4895.1,"text":"每天他就有71兆的業績這十家裡頭只有兩家其實他在我們國內設有辦公室設有辦公室倒是我要特別跟主委請教一下台灣現在有多少人持有加密筆就是你所有的資料裡頭"},{"start":4896.881,"end":4905.647,"text":"現在我們沒有比較確切的統計大概5到10%左右5到10%左右你這一個5到10%是用2300萬還是1300萬的在股市裡頭不是因為我們主要是我們那個那個虛擬資產服務工會他本質上有對他客戶做一些統計我記得待會請棋局大概差不多100萬左右的人"},{"start":4923.41,"end":4951.163,"text":"一百萬還是兩百萬我的數字裡頭超一百萬左右的開戶數一百萬的開戶數在我們國內的這些VASP業者裡面開戶我想主委一百萬還是兩百萬這個未來是因為它有些事可能是在境外但是它在比如說它在國內的VASP因為我們所能掌控的就是國內的業者這些合規的業者裡面所承包的數字"},{"start":4951.883,"end":4978.551,"text":"好那我們看到一個新加坡的那個貨幣商他有公佈在2023的時候他公佈就是台灣持有加密幣的人口是57萬那他在這一份報告裡頭他有特別講到了全世界就是印度印度是最多人然後在中國在美國那台灣投入新貨幣交易的人口其實並不多並不多不管是57萬還是100萬裡頭"},{"start":4981.172,"end":4996.652,"text":"其實它在全球排名才第51名那這樣的一個排名諸位你認為是什麼樣的一個原因讓這個投資的人口其實沒有像全世界是就是在這個加密幣的一個市場裡頭這麼興盛"},{"start":4998.574,"end":5024.609,"text":"其實我覺得在這個發展的初期去比如說去搶這個排名本質上意義不大我們是怎麼樣管好這個市場以後因為以剛剛委員提到那個金額假設未來它會發展起來它相較現在金融市場還是非常的小那我想說在這時候因為我們過去我們有我們自己的法治結構那當然本來本來就不是一個要跟世界上爭前面第一名但是我們希望把這個結構基礎把它做得"},{"start":5026.67,"end":5048.621,"text":"我現在的意思是說我在提醒你就是說這個排序只是我們一個參考可是它在未來它有可能等一下在下面我會再跟你做一個探討它越來越多人我們看到一個2022年11月當時候全球第二大的一個加密貨幣交易所"},{"start":5051.582,"end":5068.042,"text":"那個FTX這個宣布破產了以後台灣也受傷了非常的嚴重在這裡我們投資的人口就越來越多了這個為什麼會超過30萬甚至它損失的美金是4億那受影響"},{"start":5068.823,"end":5092.659,"text":"受影響那個排序就在第七樓那這個事件其實它有一個很精準的一個數字這個事件反映出來的就是什麼就是我們政府對這個虛擬貨幣的一個監管的不確定性我們簽署具體的一個虛擬貨幣的一個政策跟消費者的一個權益保障其實這個也是一直民眾對投資那個數位貨幣的那個"},{"start":5096.261,"end":5123.29,"text":"信心不足可是兩年過去了兩年過去了那我們美國加密幣監管正式進入了一個規範體系化的一個時代在上一週上一週3月17號3月17號就是說我們的美國證券交易那個委員會還有那個商品期貨交易委員會裡頭他聯合發布了一個68頁官方的解釋文件"},{"start":5124.15,"end":5146.802,"text":"那也等於是我想那個主委你非常的清楚那媒體的報導就是說美國政府正式就是說以執法代替監管的一個模式那甚至他把就是這幾個就是前16個主流的貨幣他把電線為數字的一個大宗商品"},{"start":5147.422,"end":5167.053,"text":"排除就是很明確的排除就是一個證件的一個屬性同時他也敲定了就是挖礦還有質押還有空投這個是三大核心為合法合規那就金管會的一個演繹這一份解釋性的文件跟我們監管的一個方向有沒有較大的一個差異"},{"start":5167.893,"end":5192.883,"text":"我想美國從去年應該講從川普上任以後不斷的釋出對這個虛擬幣友好的措施這是其中之一啦其實台灣我剛才講過就是我們整個也緊跟著國際上的趨勢但是我們會更審慎因為台灣的國情不同我們台灣對整個制度的這個信任的這些的選擇也不太一樣所以我的意思是說這部分"},{"start":5193.763,"end":5222.751,"text":"我們對這個市場我還是以審慎友好態度並沒有改變但是美國呢或是其他任何一個國家他一些的措施我們都嚴密的去觀察他的結果是如何我們再來看看所以我們看得到川普其實他是不斷的在那個挹注那個虛擬貨幣的一個聲勢甚至我們也看到他推出那個他的總統夫人那個梅尼亞幣的一個紀念幣其實兩年過去了民眾的投資信心回來了"},{"start":5223.311,"end":5242.207,"text":"可是現在就是要跟金管會討論的就是說之前是無法可管現在有法可以管那管得到嗎那虛擬貨幣的專法至少我覺得建議主委應該處理三大問題就是說我們業者的營運的一個監理"},{"start":5244.67,"end":5255.291,"text":"這個對我們來講我們期待這三個關鍵還有防炸防盜還有投資風險的一個揭露這個都是非常重要的那特別特別就是說"},{"start":5257.25,"end":5284.767,"text":"我這裡要請教那個主委就是在這個FTX倒閉的事件的關鍵的三個原因我們把它整理出來就是資金流動性的一個不足資金管理的一個不善還有就是過度依賴那個FTT的代幣那主委可以不可以清楚的回答我這三個問題在金管會的草案的版本裡頭哪一條條文可以管它"},{"start":5286.247,"end":5308.817,"text":"對 這個其實任何一個過去的案例就告訴我們在過去沒有納管的時代會發生這些問題比如說剛才講的資金流動性不足像我們就看到比如他的資產本身他沒有做隔離而且他在存取的時候並沒有做比如說這個保護像我們的我們現在的草案裡面就規定他的資產你保管客戶全部都要信託那會在不動產上面嗎"},{"start":5309.437,"end":5332.926,"text":"沒有就等於說他今年來保管資產全部信託的話基本上就像上次比如說我們這個單單發生問題的時候就隔離保護了再來就是說你不可以去動用客戶的資產像剛才這個案例裡面他就把客戶轉成是一個沒有價值的幣那當然到最後擠兌當然就沒有這個問題這個未來在整個高度監管下是不會發生這個事情那你的條文裡頭哪一條是用來就是"},{"start":5333.906,"end":5348.875,"text":"處理如果是倒閉事件的話你可以就是就用這樣的管理沒有關係你在會後那個提供給本席就剛才跟委員報告了就剛才我們的資產隔離還有像比如說我們的信託這些都都是一個保護的機制"},{"start":5349.275,"end":5368.861,"text":"好那我再請教一下就是我們虛擬資產服務法就是業者的營運的問題那服務商必須要有資本額那這個營業保險金這個你是怎麼要求的這個保證金基本上如果說我們所有金融業也都有這個制度"},{"start":5369.801,"end":5388.622,"text":"比如說我們的資本合會有一個最低資本的限制那你在營業之前要繳交一定比例的保證金這些東西就因應未來比如說你今天真的是停業的時候你也開始要清算這些東西都必須要有這些的保證那這部分也是保障營業安全很重要的機制你沒有回答我啦"},{"start":5389.202,"end":5414.498,"text":"那我想沒有關係反正這一部專法的執法因為我們還在研議中那特別要請教你就是說母法通過了以後半年可以不可以上路這個是很重要的一個問題我們其實現在所有執法都在準備中我們的目標而且我們的我們法治架構上的要求就是在這個半年之內要完成這些所有的事情"},{"start":5417.489,"end":5443.283,"text":"法律通過以後我們半年內必須要完成這件事情好那在特別就是虛擬資產服務法裡頭的資安跟保密的問題特別跟那個主委提到了就是說這個14條第二項有關那個資通系統的安全管理制度跟17條的保密事項其實很清楚就是說他希望帳號帳號被偷了錢就不見了那有"},{"start":5443.783,"end":5461.532,"text":"更好的一個規定就是說你在把那個虛擬貨幣跟那個帳號是分開的這個是確定的嗎對就是說今天來講的話這個資安的程序是保管剛剛講比如說我們對現在對冷熱錢包的比例就已經有規範了這些都是未來我們會納入執法裡面規範"},{"start":5463.025,"end":5483.215,"text":"最後我想時間有限,我再特別跟金管威要求,原理下面的事項,請金管威順便回答我就是美國政府發布的編號3311412檢要的研究報告提供給本席,然後提供給國內虛擬貨幣交易所的交易情況"},{"start":5484.275,"end":5509.993,"text":"做得出來嗎?可以對新興貨幣交易人進行適當的風險的示警跟宣傳跟宣導那我們也要求業者應該肩負合理的風險的那個揭露的一個義務那鼓勵境外交易所落地在台灣這個有機會做到嗎?我們法規裡面就有這個規定所以我們會建立一個消費者跨境申訴的一個管道"},{"start":5510.673,"end":5536.95,"text":"這部分還要再研因為這畢竟跨境不是我們單方面可以決定的那像我們的處境這麼困難我們國家的儲錢那個處境這麼困難的話所以跨境申訴的管道我們還需要就是在申部的研擬嗎?當然是因為我們只對金融機構但是這牽涉到犯罪還有很多各個部會跟國際的合作有在準備?深度的準備?我們法條裡面就有一條我們要進行所謂的國際合作的條文"},{"start":5537.818,"end":5544.341,"text":"好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝我們結束賴慧雲委員的質詢接下來請賴世保委員謝謝主席以及各位先進有請彭主委以及央行的外匯局長蔡局長一起"},{"start":5569.281,"end":5592.143,"text":"博主委跟蔡局長委員早安博主委早安我請教一下因為今天談虛擬貨幣這個虛擬貨幣這個有沒有利息啊虛擬資產虛擬資產就是剛委員如果講按照我們這個草案裡面如果是發行商不可以支付利息"},{"start":5594.771,"end":5614.105,"text":"所以沒有利息發行穩定幣的人不可以支付利息但是我們看到來看下一頁喔這個國外的都有USDC、USDT都有利息耶還有的比如說這個短期的到10%耶USDT、USDC"},{"start":5615.846,"end":5635.298,"text":"這個國際上都有耶如果是借貸商但是我跟你們講發行的部分是沒有像我想我也應該很清楚就是美國最近他們在討論的所謂的那個清潔法案他這裡面就是裡面是規定不准發利息嘛發行的部分那當然這部分有很多的這個所以"},{"start":5636.218,"end":5662.093,"text":"一直還沒有通過那我說我們的行政版本我們是支持在發行發行商是不支付利息這我們也跟央行也做過非常充分的討論那另外至於說今天持有以後他做這個虛擬資產的借貸服務的話那當然借貸本身就是會有就發行商比如說現在什麼叫造風銀行發行台灣的穩定幣他不可以給利息就這個意思提供轉換的服務"},{"start":5663.874,"end":5684.879,"text":"他提供轉換的服務交易的一個工具而已他不能加利息可是他如果在市面上流通市面怎麼樣去把它買賣有加利息這個你們不管他就是有一個借貸行為的話因為這有時間利益嘛這個當然是債權他們可以有利息啊對就是他的因為你犧牲了時間價值嘛現在來來來那個央行的局長"},{"start":5691.847,"end":5718.187,"text":"是 目前我們看到的也是就是國外的都是針對穩定幣的發行商是都是不給利息的那但是在平台商的部分 借貸商的部分因為他在國外的話因為有這個借貸的行為所以他們有的是複習的那他們也不算是一個複習的一個機制最主要是因為是一種就是一個補償這個借貸這個時間持有的過程裡面給可是我看到剛剛我給你秀給你看到10%欸 這麼高欸"},{"start":5720.822,"end":5745.994,"text":"我們不覺得這個USDT、USDC都有這麼高短時間 比如三個月給9%、給10%這個有 還有給到20幾%都有耶不過我想我應該知道比如說我們短期資金之間的拆借本來就是一個供需市場這個本來就會有一個跟我們一般長期的比如說存款的利率本來就不太一樣我的意思說 這個他們是從供需來決定的"},{"start":5749.423,"end":5754.028,"text":"我們看到最近在三月的時候外資大概賣掉了七千億"},{"start":5766.799,"end":5789.013,"text":"這個是台股這個重點很重的原因之一那就是 這個是為什麼看啊 主委我們台股這個持續一直收低啊因為油價持續很高嘛油價甚至於有人估到說要破120有人說170 有人說180這個東西 這一句話對不對啦我請問潘主委啊"},{"start":5794.096,"end":5814.525,"text":"每一個戰爭沒有停止的話 股市就對不對 這就對不對我想這次影響全球不是只有台灣的原因我想大家都非常非常的明瞭這很清晰啊就是說是主要因為這個戰爭影響周邊這個供油的穩定我想這個大家非常非常清楚至於說"},{"start":5815.545,"end":5841.634,"text":"這樣的時間有多久影響有多大那各自去解讀各自去判斷所以這個市場訊息匯集到市場上進行反應我想這個大概就是全球都是一樣的這個原因已經非常清楚不是說有些什麼大家不知道的原因只是大家預料的我覺得你這句話你同意不同意只要每一個戰爭不止的話股市得不停這句話同不同意這個其實這句話本來就很複雜"},{"start":5844.255,"end":5871.117,"text":"就是像比如過去我們比如說美伊的戰爭其實並沒有停止但是股市本來就有漲有跌啊就是並不是說這件事一定就是往下跌所以從過去這兩禮拜來兩三禮拜各位都看到了各種消息面對影響預期產生的結果就是不同那主委我問你齁那這個外資賣超了7000億啊請問一下央行啦這7000億跑去哪裡啊會出國外嗎還是說趴在國內"},{"start":5873.311,"end":5880.446,"text":"依據我們現在目前的規定外資匯進來國內投資股票當他在賣完股票之後就是會匯出去"},{"start":5882.315,"end":5905.706,"text":"他不能夠繼續趴在這裡啊他會有時間趴就是還是暫時有部分會暫時但是陸陸續續都還是會出去所以七千多億全部出去了嗎七千多億全部出去了嗎大部分都在過去這一個月就是說三月以來的賣超的部分目前至少部分還陸陸續續會這個是造成台幣最近一直變的原因是不是"},{"start":5907.266,"end":5935.304,"text":"對這是最主要台幣在外匯市場上面就是這個需求美元的需求大於供給最主要的一個因素你們有沒有進場調解是有沒有進場調解供需失衡比較大的時候我們會進場調解先有失衡嗎在過去幾天有幾天有出現這樣的一個情況所以前幾天你們有進場有總裁在上次就是禮拜四的那個禮監事會後的記者會也有對外有這樣的一個所以可見的你們心目中還是有一條"},{"start":5936.525,"end":5939.787,"text":"總裁還有我們央行的立場都是很清楚我們沒有所謂的一個防線"},{"start":5953.235,"end":5972.281,"text":"沒辦法知道未來美元指數它會走到哪邊去會有多強多弱這要看全球的國際金融市場的變化才能來看我想總裁也一再都有對外說明過沒有這個所謂的防線表面沒有啦 心裡有啦我這就要同意吧"},{"start":5973.675,"end":5988.382,"text":"心裡有啊 爸你要進場幹嘛你還要去啊完全尊重市場你還要去啊你心裡一定有嘛我們心裡最關注的應該就是供需的失衡加上波動太大供需明顯失衡的事件這個時候我們要解決的最主要的一個關鍵你同意我講的吧"},{"start":5992.318,"end":6017.79,"text":"比方說還是幹綠碼對不對其實我比較同意總裁跟局長講的啦我比較同意那個局長跟總裁所以你不同意我講的沒有 我覺得他們講的比較符合實際那委員講的是你自己的覺得32就是心理防線嘛看不見的隱形那條線就在那裡對不對 就出現了嘛"},{"start":6019.206,"end":6028.48,"text":"賓果嘛就出現了嘛32我覺得再差一點就32.5啦大概大概不會跌破32.5嘛是不是市長要說什麼"},{"start":6032.779,"end":6055.333,"text":"我想這還是要看國際金融機制你剛才說你千集六戶盤呢有去調集 那時候是幾塊錢不一定 大概就是外資集中匯出比較大的時候這個我想我們會定期就是講你一定記得很清楚 你是操作的 你是操盤手 你一定知道啊幾塊錢的時候你們進場的"},{"start":6056.975,"end":6066.403,"text":"沒有特定說幾塊錢就是當天的市場的一個大概幾塊錢那天是幾塊錢我想過去這幾天大概台幣的價格大概在31.5到32之間對嘛所以就是我講的對啊主委真的有說瞎話"},{"start":6073.028,"end":6095.853,"text":"還有同意我講的你要同意我講的啦其實我還是比較贊成就是央行他本於職權做了很多業務上面的這些的作為我想這個跟委員自己的認知那當然委員可以自己有自己的認知啦我想這部分是還是尊重沒有不是隨便認知啦我就是觀察這樣看這樣想這樣想結果就是這樣嘛就是進場的時候就31.5到32這樣來最後一個問題請教主委喔"},{"start":6100.954,"end":6116.205,"text":"那個黃金存摺喔是不是一定要送貨我真的覺得 是不是黃金存摺啊這部分我沒有沒辦法立刻回答我看請那個局長可以跟您做個簡單的回答好 局長來"},{"start":6118.178,"end":6135.089,"text":"這是屬於金管會是要的金管會嗎銀行跟我們申請黃金存摺業務的部分他們會去做相關的避險但這個避險的對等的工具是不是就是實體黃金這個我們並沒有特別的規定因為現在有人跟我分令的"},{"start":6136.459,"end":6158.064,"text":"他說他要去存摺 他要存黃金 買黃金的存摺因為他不太賣 原因就是他們沒有現貨所以你如果沒有現貨 因為電不到現貨所以他不要賣 那你們這個 這個是怎麼樣的事根據 我查了一下 根據你們的辦法 他要有現貨才能賣喔對吧 局長對吧"},{"start":6159.169,"end":6181.962,"text":"但是銀行他在實務商的操作過程裡面如果說有跟客戶約定這個黃金存摺到時候要對領的是新台幣的話那他就不會刻意去存這個黃金的現貨來讓客戶來領因為現貨通常都會到銀樓去買所以銀行最主要是把它當成是一個金融商品在銷售給他的客戶那你這樣子等於銀樓賣空賣空喔"},{"start":6182.782,"end":6194.21,"text":"你只要有黃金存在就真的有黃金才能夠賣啊不然你是賣假的嗎他是把它當成是一個金融商品"},{"start":6195.475,"end":6221.813,"text":"可是還是要東西啊不然你現在等於說我存了比如說我買了黃金存著就發現沒有現貨你是騙我我被你這個樣子它是鎖定那個價格也就是說當他在跟客戶說明的時候就是說到時候可能他也會用現貨來交割但他也可以用這個貨幣來交割所以它最主要是一個投資的金融商如果客戶不要了客戶就說我最好那種感覺我要實體黃金"},{"start":6223.479,"end":6246.25,"text":"你要給我啊是不是這樣是不是 局長是不是 我就問你是不是這個部分還是要回歸到說他契約上是怎麼設計的因為通常一般民眾來做這個黃金存摺他可能是要保有這個黃金價格在漲的這個增值的利益所以他不見得說我到時候如果說黃金今天不要漲上去了他不見得要提領這個實體黃金"},{"start":6248.411,"end":6268.443,"text":"這個我今天清楚了所以銀行賣黃金存摺不一定有黃金沒有想到委員這個有關這個細節我會請銀行局準備一個完整的說明再給委員參考好吧謝謝好謝謝謝謝我們結束賴世保委員的質詢接下來請陳玉珍委員來"},{"start":6276.601,"end":6286.763,"text":"謝謝主席喔 有請這個主委喔 主委 因為事實上是保險局啦主委休息一下保險局請保險局王局長"},{"start":6292.509,"end":6316.096,"text":"局長今天想跟您探討一下這個酪牛強制保險的可行性這個評估這個金管會這個推動農業保險的過程中有扮演監理者和技術資源者的兩個角色那雖然這個農業的這個保險主要單位主要單位是農業部但是保險局有負責確保保險產品的事法性財務的這個"},{"start":6318.497,"end":6339.932,"text":"穩健性 還有媒合產檢業者參與的這個政策指導功能好 那您看一下這個落牛和 現在這個保險裡頭 下一頁落牛和乳牛的這個保險政策的差異乳牛現在是在今年的1月1號開始全面強制的保險就是由政府補助50%的保費農林井負擔925元一頭和這個貸款救助這個全面掛鉤 就是"},{"start":6345.876,"end":6352.685,"text":"如果飼養乳瘤的話遇到什麼這個風險的話菩薩這一類的然後你會其實標準化定額是基礎3萬菩薩最高加碼到4.7萬那現在這個防腐率大概要到82.6%這個"},{"start":6363.639,"end":6379.781,"text":"滷牛的部分但漏牛的部分因為現在政府的政策還是自願是辦的啦沒有強制力然後也沒有什麼誘因嘛因為沒有標準化的補助那理賠機制也還沒有一個統一的標準所以現在幾乎沒有在補保這個漏牛的部分"},{"start":6380.482,"end":6396.636,"text":"因為我們金門地區大部分的這個金門地區若牛的飼養比例在全國在台澎金馬裡頭飼養比例是13%就是說這個事實上慢慢成為金門很可行的一個產業因為全國各地現在很多牧場都已經不開放"},{"start":6397.276,"end":6424.663,"text":"牧場了啦那金門就剛好是一個比較好的環境有比較寬闊的場所然後而且我們有那個金門高原汁的酒糟這個是由金酒提供給肉牛的飼養業者可以提供給酒糟做免費的這個等於是飼料然後接著而且這個酒糟肉牛吃的這個酒糟對牠的這個各方面就對牠肉質也是相當好所以是金門未來可以發展的一個產業但是金門"},{"start":6425.803,"end":6447.344,"text":"今天整體來講因為常常有時候農委會那邊農業部那邊常常會說大陸地區發生什麼牛結節或是什麼相關的什麼突發性的疫情就整個產業就是全部比如飼養鬧牛就全部完全禁止輸到台灣地區來就整個禁止輸來台灣所以就造成飼養這個鬧牛這個產業變得很不穩定"},{"start":6450.527,"end":6468.45,"text":"很不一定所以這時候我覺得這個保險機制的介入其實是有必要的那陸牛因為價值隨著牠生長階段牠的品種牠一直有波動那因為保險公司沒有辦法精算牠的保費那農民又覺得訂了理賠沒有辦法如果牠養到很後來"},{"start":6469.631,"end":6484.57,"text":"酒招牛 對像我們說和牛啊以後這個基本上現在台灣的這個弄牛就是現在很流行在外面吃那個就是您吃過吧那個那個鍋有沒有就是新鮮的 生鮮的局長有吃過嗎"},{"start":6487.734,"end":6488.335,"text":"主委有吃過吧"},{"start":6505.7,"end":6528.103,"text":"就是現在溫體牛是蠻普遍的這個產業在台灣現在是蠻蓬勃發展的金門沒有吃過金門沒有 我說全台灣你有去吃過吧台灣各地都有 你們都很少吃牛肉那你看台南各地都溫體牛很多溫體牛就是現在全台到處都是這個產業其實慢慢在蓬勃發展因為溫體牛就是火鍋這一類的蠻蓬勃發展"},{"start":6529.304,"end":6548.28,"text":"所以很多什麼標榜和牛啊是不是各地價格都蠻高的那這個肉牛產業我覺得基本是一個可以發展的這個產業那因為現在就是卡到說常常有時候會突然有一些疫情比如說牛結節或其他的這個疫情那這個造成的飼養的就是說如果有人要投入比較"},{"start":6548.94,"end":6570.715,"text":"有規模的投入的話會擔心嘛一頭牛有不少錢嘛那講幾百頭也是一損失就是在金門因為內需市場不大那養了後供應當地是如果要大規模市場只供應當地是不足一定要往台灣運嘛那台灣現在這個產業大概牧場是不容易有就慢慢沒有那所以事實上也很需要很需要這個溫體牛肉那金門之前養的話曾經有一陣子運到台灣來其實都還銷路不錯"},{"start":6575.478,"end":6576.643,"text":"那現在我們如果要擴大這個產業的話那現在就是"},{"start":6580.714,"end":6599.064,"text":"國內政府現在在做乳牛產業做的就是不錯因為有保障為了這個喝鮮奶所以有保障有一定的這個保險有一定的保險有相關的這個掛鉤那所以這個部分現在是不是這個部分可以請這個我們金管會這邊就協助跟農業部農業部因為這個農經保險嘛可以跟農經他有農經署嘛討論一下可以協助一下精算這個漏牛漏牛強制保險這個保費"},{"start":6607.849,"end":6619.991,"text":"比照乳牛嘛讓肉牛跟乳牛可以一樣享有這個商業保險的覆蓋那這個如果說有可行性的話對金門以後發展產業那業者願意過去投資的話機會會大一些啦就是說"},{"start":6621.158,"end":6640.196,"text":"如果萬一損失的話,不至於全盤都沒有嗎?全軍覆沒?各位跟我們報告,因為這個不管是乳牛保險或是以前那個豬隻保險,這都是農業部主政的但是如果說他需要我們商業保險的相關的協助的話,我們會來協助農委會"},{"start":6642.918,"end":6666.605,"text":"好那這個是你是希望由農金署來主動那個嗎還是說你們來找他們來開會來討論一下這是農業部主政的保險我知道那我也可以請農金署主動聯絡你們嘛你們一起來討論這個因為這個農金署它本身的相關的有一些強制因為保險局這邊對保險公司的這個相關的政策指導的力量會"},{"start":6667.405,"end":6687.768,"text":"商業保險的技術因為確實在過去我們很多地方我們跟農業部都做很多的合作那有需要的話委員來促成我們都會來那我也來跟農金署聯絡那農金署聯絡的話到時候你們是不是可以在一個月內或是多久內可以提供相關金額我會主動聯絡他們跟你們聯絡我們看他的需求"},{"start":6689.329,"end":6704.159,"text":"我現在提的需求是希望比照這個乳牛這個部分那你們做的部分只是找相關的這個精算這個應該是保險局這邊的工作吧那個技術上協助跟經驗協助應該是沒問題好好那多久內你也主動一點沒關係我也會幫忙聯絡了"},{"start":6706.077,"end":6732.706,"text":"對 就是說當然那個期限假設農業部非常非常清楚他的需求還有就是假設以委員這樣為前提的話我們就請保安局回去跟公會你先主動跟這個公會啦你們這邊就是公會嘛那農金屬這邊你們也可以聯絡我也會幫忙聯絡好不好我們雙管齊下對對 專對這個部分喔盡快是不是在現在是三月底了嘛看四月底五月底都可以給我們一個答案好不好至少有個初步我們要往前推啦"},{"start":6733.786,"end":6752.697,"text":"我想我們就先初步的一些的評估方式先提供給政策嘛主要還是政策問題嘛不一定是補助因為保險是有費率問題嘛他如果飼養這個產業他有一定的收益他也願意付一定的這個保費因為政治保險跟商業保險思維是很大的不同我知道我知道沒關係你們就從你們也可以從商業保險下去考慮啦好嗎"},{"start":6754.178,"end":6778.703,"text":"好 謝謝 那下一題就主委了這個虛擬資產專法這個部分我想金門可以扮演一定的角色這個有關金融創新 離島的區塊鏈的這個部分來 您看為什麼金門是一個很適合的一個測試地就是說這跟之前我們前一陣子上次我們不是有提嗎很多東西金門 因為金門這個做了一個這個"},{"start":6780.863,"end":6797.272,"text":"一個比較小的島然後比較容易實驗的這個地區那只要政策願意開放的話作為這個虛擬資產專法的前瞻實驗區利用專法現在草案裡頭所提到的創新實驗機制每一個版本都有第四條就是可以讓我們金門發揮這個區域的優勢那尋找我們金門這個經濟的這個新動人那你看就是突破穩定幣銀行壟斷的這個區域實驗您看一下現在就是說"},{"start":6808.517,"end":6829.706,"text":"這個專法傾向就是讓金融機構發行穩定幣吧然後如果在金門可以適行非銀行機構穩定幣發行的這個許可測試穩定幣在我們離島在金門地區旅遊免稅購物跨境外匯撥轉中的效率安全性這個可以做一個實驗然後測試在和法定幣這個連結虧損上面實務的問題"},{"start":6833.848,"end":6861.251,"text":"驗證非銀行機構在受控環境下可以兼顧創新和系統性風險這個防範這個部分這個部分就跟我這個上個星期我們也提到這個在金門地區對這個電子支付這個部分我想也可以做相關的這個連結那金門一直我一直覺得金門是一個很適合政府做一個實驗的這個地方地方小然後任何的這個"},{"start":6862.952,"end":6889.558,"text":"測試都很容易 容易看出有沒有錯誤然後萬一有什麼風險事實上也很容易防範的這個這個地區尤其對於這個跨部會這個聯防測試的跨境洗錢的這個聯防實驗這個部分是不是你可以考慮一下這個我們推動這個專法裡頭把我們金門定為一個金融創新試驗場地的可行性評估這個是不是可以考慮一下"},{"start":6890.018,"end":6913.844,"text":"其實剛剛委員提到我們專法的草案第四條裡面我們在所有的金融相關的法令都有放這一條就是說你雖然不是VASP但是你如果有很好的想法你可以來申請創新實驗我想這個應該是沒有地區之別那任何人都可以來申請比如說假設廠商或是業者認為金門有特別的好的地方他就提出申請"},{"start":6914.384,"end":6917.785,"text":"這個創新實驗是對所有都是一樣嗎?那假設業者自己覺得在金門有特別他可以按照這條例來提出實驗的申請"},{"start":6933.47,"end":6952.857,"text":"你們可以給我一個這個也做一個報告給我嗎因為是不是是不是可能會遇到什麼問題啊或者是政策上可能有什麼樣的支持啊那這樣子我們可以按照你這個報告我們來看有沒有相關的願意來支援我們過去在整個整個創新實驗的一些的流程一些條件標準給委員參考好好謝謝您謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6960.956,"end":6983.622,"text":"現在請李燕秀李燕秀理委員質詢感謝主席我是不是可以請主委先休息一下請負稅署財政部底下三位同仁負稅署跟所得稅組蘇副組長胡副組長"},{"start":6999.522,"end":7019.557,"text":"兩位組長 虛擬貨幣的定性跟營業稅相關的爭議是我在今天我們今天討論這個服務專法我要特別提出來因為這個專法其實在國際上歐盟跟日本其實新加坡其實早就已經上路了那我們其實比較慢但是我覺得這件事情無論在法律上的定位跟定性我覺得都要"},{"start":7020.237,"end":7042.267,"text":"討論得更清楚後續在監管跟課稅的部分我覺得跟國際上一致我們才能夠推動得更順利但是在按照過去複稅署的說法加密貨幣它其實沒有證券性所以過去你們是傾向把比特幣或者是一代幣定位成它是一個商品"},{"start":7042.967,"end":7047.37,"text":"他是虛擬商品所以那我就要請問一下組長就說如果一般民眾經常性的買賣這個買賣他的買賣金額超過所謂營業稅的起徵點未來到底是不是需要課徵營業稅這是我第一個問題可不可以回應我"},{"start":7064.78,"end":7089.053,"text":"報告委員 誠如甘海委員有講的就是買賣貨幣到底有沒有涉及到證券或非證券那其實我們在之前109年就已經有核視它如果是屬於證券性質的一個虛擬資產的話它原則上應該要課徵我們證交稅那目前的話就是千分之一的證交稅是有在核課的如果有發行這些去做交易的話但是你現在 因為之前負稅署的說法是它並沒有證券性質喔"},{"start":7089.853,"end":7104.524,"text":"有兩類就是有證券性質跟非證券性質的那證券性質的本來在109年我們就已經有合適相關的規定了然後另外非證券性質的部分的話我們目前其實就是在收集國際的資料那剛才委員也有很清楚的說到就是"},{"start":7105.204,"end":7112.931,"text":"歐盟那邊可能有一些是不用課的那有一些有部分也是要課的所以我們目前其實都有在看這些國際的趨勢現在沒有定案目前還沒有因為我們也是在看專法的那我的問題因為今天時間很短就是說民眾對於這件事情的疑慮其實是可以理解的包括金融投資行為卻要被當"},{"start":7125.742,"end":7142.609,"text":"一般我們認為是金融投資行為但是卻要被認為說好像是一個買賣所以在一般民眾感覺這是不合理的這跟一般的個人財產交易免徵營業稅的原則是互相衝突的你理解我的意思是就是說"},{"start":7145.311,"end":7164.971,"text":"跟過去傳統消費的加值或加工行為事實上是不一樣的歐盟跟日本新加坡規定加密貨幣是免徵營業稅的部分針對這部分當然是我們負稅署財政部的權責所以未來其實對於你們立法的方向"},{"start":7166.392,"end":7182.126,"text":"到底是遵循國際上你們的看法是如何我覺得外界也都在關注這樣的一個重點那這個部分你們會不會有自己的時間表出來什麼時候會有最後的決定我們目前是會看專法這邊的一些相關的一個方向"},{"start":7182.586,"end":7206.819,"text":"就是跟他就是整個管理的政策如果說能夠很確定的話那我們整個後面的我們嚴厲我們課稅的一個規定就會比較周全那成如剛才委員有講到的的確在定性方面的話他可能因為我們很快可能我們的版本因為我不知道行政院版本什麼時候會進來但是我們版本通過如果還沒有的話我就我個人就會認為這個修法就會沒有行政院的意見這就"},{"start":7208.3,"end":7232.368,"text":"了解 不太周全會緊挪密鼓的趕快去處理這一塊好 一個月之內好不好好 那第二個我要詢問的就是現在境內外的付稅套利的跟資金外流的部分我就要請教你們就是包括剛才有其他委員提到包括境內平台買賣虛擬貨幣的稅制的差別就是說我們一般在境外的部分買賣有海外的所得我們有100萬的不用申報"},{"start":7233.988,"end":7258.662,"text":"那750萬就是說有獲利的話是不用去繳稅是免稅的狀態但是在境內的平台呢我們計算它所得最高有累計稅率40%所以在這邊未來我們如何去處理這一塊因為這個變相的變成鼓勵民眾把資金移向海外的交易平台那我們在設立這樣一個法案的時候我覺得"},{"start":7260.263,"end":7273.192,"text":"在討論上我覺得就會造成國內稅基的流失因為大家變成說在境外投資反而我們免稅的金額是比較高的所以你們的意見到底有什麼樣的解方"},{"start":7275.558,"end":7294.59,"text":"目前的確是在財產的一個交易所得的話如果是登記境內的財產它是會算我們國內的所得然後境外的就會用海外所得那現在就是你們有發現這樣的問題對不對?是的確會有一些制度上適用是不一樣的那我們就沒有課到稅啦"},{"start":7297.232,"end":7310.25,"text":"課稅這個部分是後續我們課稅資料收集的問題啦當然因為如果他有一些交易的話金額有超過我們當然還是會議規定要去課稅的境外這一塊所以還沒有想法"},{"start":7311.467,"end":7331.754,"text":"目前我們一樣是配合這個專法後續一些資料收集你們這個專法我早就已經聽到行政院其實你們內部已經有版本了但是這麼重要的事情你們居然都還不知道要怎麼辦我覺得可以聽聽我們金管和彭主委的意見跟後續怎麼去做處理比較好我們當然希望我們這資產管理法"},{"start":7334.215,"end":7354.995,"text":"留在台灣然後所有業者我們管理業者但是我們覺得政府還是應該可以課到應該有的稅這是很重要的精神嗎主委你可不可以回應我一下謝謝委員的關心我想說確實稅制本身會影響資金的流動我想這個大家都知道那剛剛講委員提到這個東西應該不是只有虛擬資產的問題"},{"start":7357.337,"end":7379.924,"text":"應該是我們所有的境內境外投資本來有他政策上的考慮所以這我們尊重財政部的專業只是說我們現在這個其實不是只有財政部的專業其實虛擬資產的監理是我們從洗錢防治法納管走向專法我們全面都控管我們不要任何漏洞政府都可以看得到管得到還不只是課稅的問題"},{"start":7382.785,"end":7400.094,"text":"所以我想聽聽這雖然是財政部的這夜館的內容但是我也想聽聽主委您的意見如果站在我們的立場我還是要強調數位有專攻租稅的當時會設計這樣一定有他的考慮這個我們講的只是純粹是我們從我們的角度來思考"},{"start":7400.914,"end":7420.59,"text":"那我們當然希望說我們納管這個業者希望說能夠給國人提供更好的這樣一個條件那我也希望說盡量把這個交易能夠站在我們的同意的標準來納管是 所以境內平台也可以有討論調整的空間嘛讓我們更有優勢嘛 國內的平台更有優勢嘛"},{"start":7422.231,"end":7450.469,"text":"對其實財政部當時會這樣規定我在猜一定有他自己專業非常多的考量經過充分的討論那當然這新的事務我想這部分我們還是會跟主委我的時間不多但是我最後您自己主動上來我就希望說財政部在這一塊要多聽聽跟金管會多溝通我們希望就是說未來的整個資金流動從洗錢方針法到全面的納管就是在國內重要的精神那怎麼樣留住所有的錢我們政府都可以"},{"start":7451.189,"end":7464.213,"text":"看得到管得到然後也留住這個平台多使用我們國內的平台這是我重要的主張另外就是說再鎖的對不起這跟後續財政部還是比較有關係虛擬資產的認定方式有三種一個是換幣級的換成或者換成法幣級課第三種是出金才課"},{"start":7473.475,"end":7494.335,"text":"但是現在在市場上比較常見的交易就是比特幣換成美金或者是比特幣換成泰幣甚至是比特幣換成USDT所以這樣的操作方式在財政部現行的解釋之下到底算不算是實現所得它的所得到底是怎麼去做計算"},{"start":7495.95,"end":7509.976,"text":"在精神上你們的看法是什麼因為很多人就是他把它換成就是到最後把比特幣換成以太幣或者比特幣或以太幣換成USDT那他就放在那個錢包裡面"},{"start":7511.312,"end":7531.346,"text":"賺他超過那個所得 就是說到底說要課稅比如說也超過七百萬 七百五十萬還是七百萬七百五十萬 照理說要課稅但是他就放在海外消費 他就放在他海外的錢包裡面消費所以你也課不到這一筆 那這個部分後續怎麼去做處理這到底算不算實現所得 就是說"},{"start":7533.697,"end":7547.029,"text":"他賺的錢他可能超過750萬照理說超過750萬是要課稅的要申報要課稅但他就放在海外錢包裡面那就直接拿那個錢包在海外消費那這個到底算不算所得"},{"start":7550.162,"end":7564.872,"text":"如果消費生產500萬那又變成是免稅你懂這個都有一個漏洞嘛所以這個部分怎麼去做處理報告委員我只是舉這幾種樣態提醒你們要思考清楚這個未來就是委員有提到就是說這個"},{"start":7566.293,"end":7582.474,"text":"幣別之間的轉換還有出金等等的這些課所以其實遇到現在的所得稅法一些規定它其實只要有一些交易行為只要有一個transaction它其實應該都會要繼續計算所得的跟它後面賺到所得以後去做花費那可能是另外一件"},{"start":7583.195,"end":7598.03,"text":"我今天质询到现在16秒我觉得很多事情财政部都还没有想得很清楚都没有办法回应我的答案我都不知道行政院什么时候我希望一个月之后你们可以有你们的想法出来后面我们在讨论这个法案的时候才有机会更周全"},{"start":7598.47,"end":7620.41,"text":"好最後10秒鐘我請問一下主委就是說現在虛擬貨幣的監管有一個漏洞就是很多的幣圈老師跟貸單群組其實這個是有問題的看起來其實是不是虛擬資產交易其實我們有要求不得有意圖影響價格的操作行為但是這些貸圈幣圈的老師跟貸單的群組其實"},{"start":7623.212,"end":7633.652,"text":"他們都有在說應該怎麼買或怎麼賣或者應該什麼時候應該進場等等所以金管會未來是不是會把虛擬資產分析跟顧問的行為納入管理"},{"start":7634.554,"end":7660.916,"text":"我想這個有關交易行為我們再過於其他的相對應的金融商品已經開始納管比如對網紅我們也有一些規範那未來在金融消費者保護法還有就是我們對這些專業的資格條件裡面從業人員的資格條件也會有訂定相關的專法這個未來在一個有秩序的市場應該都是會受到合理的規範好 謝謝主委的回應 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":7676.707,"end":7679.189,"text":"接下來我們請李坤澄委員謝謝主席我們請彭主委請彭主委委員好來主委好辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":7703.638,"end":7722.83,"text":"因為本來就是上禮拜有專報的時候有提到了就是說你們會把這個虛擬資產服務法送到這個立法院來不過我們今天稍微先排了這一個在野黨的這個版本然後那我先請教一下就是說現在本土的是有這個八家的這一個交易所"},{"start":7725.026,"end":7748.771,"text":"八家業者,不全是交易所八家業者,八家業者你們讓他取得許可嘛對不對登記制那現在就是還想講說因為你本土人你有來申請這個許可那你們也審查過了讓他有取得這個許可那但是海外的部分大家還是在講說海外的部分現在有幾家來跟我們申請"},{"start":7751.625,"end":7765.525,"text":"過去我想有幾家來詢問怎麼落地來設分支機構那這部分我們也都是因為未來整個這個專法通過以後那條文裡面就直接講了有兩條路徑"},{"start":7766.787,"end":7781.738,"text":"一個就是說你可以已經國外的機構你可以來台灣設分支機構就是分公司另外也可以你直接投資台灣成立一個本國法律設立的新的機構這兩條路都可以就跟我們一般金融市場是一樣"},{"start":7782.738,"end":7797.951,"text":"我的意思是說在專法通過之後他們就一定要來申請嘛海外的一定要來申請嗎對一定要來申請當然這是國際的通歷那如果沒有來申請呢因為現在他們不用來申請嘛對不對然後也是活得很好嘛沒有就是說假設"},{"start":7798.812,"end":7814.901,"text":"今天來就像我們現在很多各位常聽到所謂地下保單那就是沒有在台灣有據點呈現沒有在台灣取得合法的業務在台灣招攬業務的行為這個就是違法的規則可是那不太一樣因為其實海外的其實他們是蠻大的一個集團"},{"start":7818.203,"end":7835.245,"text":"他們不是說像你講的這個所謂的地下交易啦那我們很多也是跟他們有交易那現在問題在於說他們來這邊目前來申請有遇到什麼樣的困難嗎因為這個困難以後你專訪通過他們還是要進來啊對當然這個這部分的每一家公司的狀況不太一樣"},{"start":7836.286,"end":7853.563,"text":"那比如說他今天來申請設立的話其實我覺得在法規上是沒有障礙當然比如說現階段我們包括你是如果是境外的投資還有我們外國人投資條例的規定這裡面有一些比如說特許業務的範圍這些都是那再來還有一些比如說未來像這些"},{"start":7854.904,"end":7871.558,"text":"資金來源這是從哪裡來這些都是有其他法律在規範那其他都是一些專業的考量就是說你有沒有能力在台灣如何去展業這部分我們現在未來會越來越周延這些規定所以聽起來是資金來源是比較有問題嗎這是其中之一而已"},{"start":7872.759,"end":7900.124,"text":"那好那所以就是說如果專法通過之後他們就一定要來申請嘛所以你講那些問題他們也都必須要做處理嘛如果說你要在台灣實體的執行業務比如說就像前陣子比如說有委員關心說你沒有經過同意怎麼會在台灣的公車車體上看到你的廣告那基本上這個就是一個非常非常明顯或者說你竟然在台灣招攬業務人員在幫你做這些行銷這些問題大概就是這個很很具體的違反這些規定還有就是說"},{"start":7901.044,"end":7919.773,"text":"你公然的跟我們很多的金融機構或是其他機構有營業的行為我想這部分大概就很明確了好那再請教一下其實我上禮拜有問過啦現在就是說那個穩定幣啦那穩定幣現在就是說因為有一些外商應該是台商跟外商他們在這一個"},{"start":7920.424,"end":7935.045,"text":"在交易的時候可能外商或是外國企業會給我們台商穩定幣那現在就是說台商拿到穩定幣之後現在在台灣的部分銀行的接受度是怎麼樣他們怎麼處理這些穩定幣"},{"start":7936.887,"end":7960.68,"text":"現在的話就是說我們現在這也是我們關注到因為銀行是大家信認度高的一個金融機構如果未來比如說你的這些虛擬資產的保管能夠在銀行某種程度等於說你可以把它存在我的銀行那當然對我的安全性也可以當然對於持有者而言他可以存在自己的錢包也可以請銀行來做比如信託或來做保管的管理"},{"start":7961.34,"end":7973.653,"text":"我們就推動那個事辦大概有應該有19家銀行有興趣我們現在有5家正在做事辦中事辦多久了事辦有一陣子了事辦到現在有遇到什麼樣的問題嗎其實我覺得"},{"start":7976.616,"end":7993.562,"text":"基礎上當然每個人所採用的方式不一樣啦我們希望能夠整合出一個比較好的方法比較有效率的方式來做不過這個是很重要讓金融業能夠跟整個虛擬資產業做一個整合結合還有取得社會信任非常重要的一個工作我們會來加速來處理"},{"start":7996.964,"end":8011.833,"text":"現在是事辦那你們有指引嗎或是說規範嗎還是說全部要等到專法通過之後再來處理這一塊事辦跟這個是兩個獨立的那我想局長有沒有什麼補充現在事辦的情形"},{"start":8012.849,"end":8025.538,"text":"有跟委員報告那這個部分我們也有參考香港HKMA的相關指引那我們會請銀行公會就事辦的部分我們會在六個月之內訂出指引出來那所以你說事辦多久啦"},{"start":8027.52,"end":8045.488,"text":"試辦的期程原則上是一年從哪時候開始的?應該大概半年前就陸陸續續開始可是那個指引還沒有定出來?還沒有定出來那怎麼會試辦沒有指引出來?現在有指引出來之後再試辦嗎?"},{"start":8046.869,"end":8071.044,"text":"通常就是業務先行之後我們覺得說必須要再進一步相關的去做相關的規管那我們也參考國外的一些那這半年來有遇到一些什麼問題嗎因為他們事辦的這個就是業務的內容比較簡單而且那個就是接受保管的這個這個幣呢是相對來講那個量是有限縮的所以風險是可控都是美元嗎"},{"start":8074.145,"end":8079.647,"text":"那有公股銀行嗎?目前沒有公股銀行公股銀行是比較保守嗎?"},{"start":8091.707,"end":8109.398,"text":"客人經營的業務的選擇啦剛剛委員有提到就是說我們事辦就是希望透過事辦跟業者一起來觀察你的情況他會比所謂的指引規定會先行才要事辦當我們指引出來以後就直接開辦了所以這個本來就是這個過程所以指引說大概哪時候會出來大概六個月之內"},{"start":8110.82,"end":8136.697,"text":"從現在算六個月之內嗎?對那再請教一下因為這一檔的版本比較不一樣就是說這個衍生性的這個商品那現在金管會是站在比較一個保守的一個立場嗎?是不是?不是,比較穩健,其實我們也不保守就是說我們覺得現階段我想各位都知道我們一般的衍生商品都已經很不容易理解了"},{"start":8136.997,"end":8152.959,"text":"那再來就以這個波動這麼大的這些的產品還有就是大家對它熟悉度不高的產品直接就開放到衍生性商品我想這個以台灣現在的監理環境我們也不認為現在馬上做就很適當但是呢當然"},{"start":8154.321,"end":8179.472,"text":"我剛剛也提到了就是假設業者有這個能力國際上也有很明確的規範再來有做好很好的封控我想這部分本來就是一個我們已經預留在一個彈性裡面所以說其實我們已經對外講過很多次這其實上本來就是我們隨時都可以來跟進可是這個在國外應該是算是蠻成熟的一個產品其實也不是成熟只是有人在做這些事情當然這個東西牽涉到槓桿倍數是非常高"},{"start":8183.294,"end":8208.212,"text":"那就是說目前在專法上面是沒有把這一部分把它規範在裡面沒有我們不是明文我們就定一個其他金主管居然同意的虛擬資產業務嘛那這部分其實更廣更有彈性當然就是說現在其實這個大家的目的都相同只是說我們現在希望利用這個專法告訴各位就是說我們希望是一個比較穩健的方式來執行這樣的一個市場的開放"},{"start":8209.219,"end":8225.284,"text":"那所以說就在野黨他們所提出來就是說希望能夠開放一些衍生性的金融商品的話就目前按照主委所講的不會應該是說列在執法裡面去做處理嗎還是怎麼樣執法裡面我剛講過就是說剛剛那個那個"},{"start":8226.915,"end":8245.835,"text":"報告這兩個版本的條文裡面他是直接在那個款裡面加一項就衍生性商品的服務經營這個叫做這個虛擬資產金融商那我想說這部分呢其實我們剛才提過了其實我們開始立法的時候大家已經注意到了那我們用其他金主管機關我們不明列這個東西其實上但是函啊"},{"start":8246.515,"end":8261.57,"text":"當然啦 因為未來我們在很多公開的場合也講說我們從來都沒有說不願意做我們只是想說希望我們用進階那這個東西呢 給予主管機關比較大的監理的彈性來做這件事情我想也是保障我們的交易人啦好 最後再問 現在這個虛擬資產它能夠列入這個我們企業的財報嗎"},{"start":8268.021,"end":8278.276,"text":"現在我們請我們的會員基金會我們會計界在三月底會提出他們未來整個列帳的相關的一些的指引出來那方向是怎麼樣有嗎 請"},{"start":8282.88,"end":8302.526,"text":"報告委員這個部分會計會已經有類似委外一個研究那三月底四月初大家會出來會有一個指引給企業來使用所以是朝向是說可以列入這一個企業財報裡面嗎對就是用什麼樣的會計項目怎麼樣來入賬反正會去把它列進去就對了但是是要怎麼列的方法"},{"start":8303.126,"end":8324.847,"text":"怎麼去做處理就對了對 其實應該講我想在國際上已經有一些可以來參考那國內因為我們的比較特殊的財快環境必須要經過我們公佈一些財快準則這樣方式來揭露好 謝謝謝謝主委 謝謝我們主席好 謝謝委員謝謝現在結束我們李昆城委員質詢接下來請羅明財委員"},{"start":8332.304,"end":8357.841,"text":"主席各位 朱烈熙官員大家好主席可不可以請彭主委 請OTC簡董事長央行的兩位局長謝局長跟蔡局長好 委員長彭主委 你有沒有去過杜拜沒有"},{"start":8360.356,"end":8387.6,"text":"杜拜他在這幾年把虛擬資產以及很多的財富管理通通加大幅度讓杜拜平地起高樓成一個新的交易中心他的雄心壯志值不值得台灣的學習"},{"start":8389.181,"end":8414.765,"text":"其實杜拜從他過去開始有少量的石油他知道他未來的發展會受到局限開始全力發展境外的各種中心我覺得他們的本質上他有他非常非常令人刮目相看的成績那我想這個心理自然只是其中之一而已香港的金融中心地位現在逐年的下降"},{"start":8416.397,"end":8432.986,"text":"你會不會想把台灣打造成一個全世界華人的財富管理中心讓台灣成為全世界虛擬資產的交易中心"},{"start":8435.13,"end":8459.09,"text":"跟委員說明就是說我想我們在很多場合我們希望台灣成為在亞洲的資產管理中心之一這樣的一個計畫我們持續在推動這裡面包括很多比如說我們所謂的資產管理假設未來虛擬資產也是成為一個合規的資產項目的話那自然會隨著這個趨勢然後也納入到我們的整個的"},{"start":8459.75,"end":8484.898,"text":"未來發展規劃項目所以你的意思是說現在需你資產來交易不合規囉現在我們講說就跟全世界一樣就是說這個資產某種程度我剛才在報告裡提到各國都朝向專法讓它合規化來監管的這個模式來前進台灣也是這樣那這樣當然更有助於我們在政策上推動的一個基礎啦"},{"start":8487.424,"end":8505.717,"text":"那請央行那幾個數據也請諸位了解一下我們的外匯存底現在在6000多億的美金全世界有哪幾個國家外匯存底裡面是有這個虛擬資產當作他的儲備的"},{"start":8509.76,"end":8539.077,"text":"是 各位報告 我想大部分的主要國家應該都還沒有把這個比特幣等這些資產放入他的外匯存底因為這個可能在他的準備裡面會有但是外匯存底的定義裡面可能比較不容易美國的國庫署啊他們國家資產裡面有沒有虛擬貨幣有 他們應該是之前沒收得到的但是這個也不會是放在外匯存底裡面 是"},{"start":8539.738,"end":8556.712,"text":"好 那請問美國有沒有相關虛擬貨幣的交易已經正式展開您是指央行跟外面的還是虛擬貨幣啊 在股市買賣來 請簡董事長好了美國是去年還前年有發了幾檔虛擬貨幣的ETF"},{"start":8567.27,"end":8590.36,"text":"據我所知ETF在...虛擬貨幣的ETF在美國加拿大或其他有一些國家是有在掛牌新加坡掛了沒我沒有確定的不過我想應該要查一下才能確定請問台灣的第一檔有關虛擬貨幣的資產"},{"start":8594.192,"end":8620.048,"text":"第一個上市 上櫃買中心大概是什麼時候我們櫃買中心還沒有虛擬資產的ETF掛牌有沒有相關的個股是有關虛擬貨幣的報告委員我們目前沒有這樣子的掛牌公司目前沒有嗎那你希望台灣第一個看得到是什麼時候"},{"start":8623.089,"end":8641.867,"text":"向委員報告 我想這個我們在虛擬資產的服務法 相關的法規制度這些交易都必須要健全 然後我們才可能再去衍生這個ETF相關的產品來掛牌我想這個應該是有順序的先後好 那央行我們回一下"},{"start":8643.991,"end":8661.333,"text":"你會不會擔心以台幣計價的穩定幣及相關的合規的虛擬資產成為大多數人生活中的一小部分的時候央行的地位會受到影響"},{"start":8663.459,"end":8677.765,"text":"我想我們之前有分析過啦穩定幣目前來看的話它也是一種資產的一個就是一個配置它不會就對我們的金融體系來講並不會有目前來觀察是不會有太大的一個影響所以你不會怕它"},{"start":8678.9,"end":8700.043,"text":"就我們的銀行體系然後跟民眾持有這個穩定幣的部分那假設我們有在目前的法規的規範之下我認為這個不會是一個會變成就是對我們的這個金融體系造成一個危險所以不怕他會不會面對他會不會面對他接受他照顧他愛護他"},{"start":8703.447,"end":8730.247,"text":"我想穩定幣的部分就央行的觀點就銀行的觀點我想這個部分應該跟這個是不太一樣我們央行的觀點一直都是著重在穩定幣是否視為貨幣他跟M2之間的一個替代的一個問題那我們之前都有分析過事實上這個在整個金融體系裡面在整個銀行體系裡面對貨幣的定義裡面影響並不是很大那這是我們央行所關注的部分那至於穩定幣"},{"start":8731.728,"end":8745.874,"text":"會不會如何健全發展關注他我想這個不是我們央行的職權我們央行關注的是他對M2的一個影響那現在央行發行的數字貨幣什麼時候開始正式上市"},{"start":8749.004,"end":8768.704,"text":"我們現在國內的電子資助體系也相當的多元便利所以方形綠貼的CPTC這部分我們沒有急迫性但是我們現在有把CPTC的雛形平台轉換成數位金流平台然後支援政府發各種的數位券或數位幣"},{"start":8769.545,"end":8788.555,"text":"那目前是有支援客家委員會的客家幣那未來我們現在還要跟運動部的運動幣還有那個衛福部的健康幣在洽談合作之中 謝謝好 謝謝 那請那個彭主委台灣究竟是一個對虛擬資產 虛擬貨幣是比較正面支持的態度呢"},{"start":8794.54,"end":8820.618,"text":"或者根本你就是反對他們進來反對這個產業的發展當然不是跟文說明其實我們這個產業已經在了我們從過去這麼多年來從剛才講的比如說他用聲明登記到現在其實我們現在市場已經有8家業者在運作對現在在的情況是大家可能不清楚本來有26家"},{"start":8822.589,"end":8834.894,"text":"導到現在像你剛剛講的幾家應該講說我們篩選這些適合在台灣發展的對嘛 你就用篩選我是用民間懂的話叫做到倒啊那為什麼會不見為什麼會變少"},{"start":8841.451,"end":8859.949,"text":"就是變成你對這個產業裡面有積極的輔導嗎?其實我們輔導也要看對象就像比如過去很多過去在聲明制的因為當時的是因為反洗錢的這樣的規範所以很多發生了非常多的弊端我想社會都看到了"},{"start":8860.529,"end":8881.477,"text":"透過我們的管制讓這個市場逐步的邁入秩序而且穩健這是政府該做的事並不是說我們去把誰給弄到無法經營我想就是因為我們希望留下的業者都能夠確實的遵守而且持續的讓市場更為健全所以這是一個挑戰當然可是也是一個機會"},{"start":8883.138,"end":8897.591,"text":"你有沒有算過我們的這些上市公司很多它因為新台幣的上上下下對這個企業來講它有些成本以及風險非常大"},{"start":8899.591,"end":8924.607,"text":"如果有一個新台幣計價做發行依靠的新台幣的穩定幣那每個人在接單的時候在國際上都可以確認他的支出他的成本他是可以算得出來的這個單一千億要接不接我們馬上就可以鎖住"},{"start":8926.764,"end":8951.872,"text":"現在每一次都還經過銀行的換匯你知道包括保險公司相關的這些匯損一年大概損失有多少不一定都匯損有時候會有因為利率在波動中交易的費用沒有它本質上就是一個波動帳面上本來就有波動不見得都是損失"},{"start":8953.259,"end":8981.029,"text":"保險公司出去你每次都要有一些賄損準備啊那是外交準備金我們現在有訂了非常非常明確的規定那這部分那只是因應他的波動這個外交準備金是其中之一啊一年大概七八十億十年就七八百億還有很多的企業都不回來啊因為他放香港低稅戶還有他的操作也比較快"},{"start":8982.045,"end":9002.64,"text":"你如果有一個新台幣計價的穩定幣會出現什麼情況如果禮拜五就可以決定了啊禮拜六禮拜天銀行不上班很多事情他都可以交割嘛而且台灣現在一年放假放幾天"},{"start":9005.712,"end":9015.286,"text":"這個我沒有統計一百一十五一百一十六天所以企業存在很多的不確定性有個穩定幣馬上就可以決定啊所以請主委"},{"start":9021.328,"end":9047.403,"text":"你現在倒是保持一個開放的態度還是非常保守又穩健的態度如果我們真的是非常保守就不會提這個專法也不會跟社會溝通這麼久的時間廣納各方的意見我想今天這個這個答詢就是因為在這樣一個開放的架構之下才有的這樣的這場的答詢那主委你歡迎不歡迎國外的"},{"start":9049.765,"end":9064.216,"text":"這個虛擬貨幣交易所他們來台灣投資我們現在我們的法規是中性的我們對國內外都一視同仁中性是我們說很多次我們監理就是謹慎或審慎友好的態度面對虛擬資產服務業"},{"start":9066.122,"end":9083.472,"text":"外商可以來台灣投資當然法規已經很明確了未來的版本裡面都寫了你另外一個最近油價狂飆現在一桶石油世界的一桶價格是多少現在不同的報價有從90幾到110塊之間115 漲很多我們周邊的銀行也都去年都賺很多"},{"start":9092.637,"end":9093.979,"text":"然後會不會趁機ATM手續會調高啊"},{"start":9099.107,"end":9120.115,"text":"對民眾的一些費用會調高這當然不會啦我想這些東西它是一高度監管行業它也有肩負社會回饋的責任我想這部分不會有委員說會把我們那個費用把它調高的問題所以金融周邊產品不會趁機趁火打擊當然不會不會調高啦當然不會OK 好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員好"},{"start":9123.137,"end":9146.6,"text":"我們結束羅明財委員的質詢 接下來請顏寬恒委員謝謝主席 各位律師官員大家好 主席有請金管會彭主委請彭主委委員好 主委好 主委"},{"start":9148.457,"end":9163.082,"text":"虛擬資產服務法草案儘管會早在114年6月份就已經送到行政院行政院遲遲不將法案送到立法院審議你們有向行政院催促這個進度嗎行政院有沒有跟你們透露說什麼時候會送來立法院"},{"start":9163.53,"end":9182.165,"text":"我想這部分其實行政院沒有說支持不審因為這個畢竟是一個新的法律透過兩位政委在過去開了非常多的會跟各個單位做協商那我們也開了很多很多的公聽會那這個案子應該在行政院所有的審查程序已經結束應該是提報院會以後應該很快就送到大院來了"},{"start":9183.204,"end":9196.976,"text":"從去年的六月我們還是拜託你們跟行政院催促一下這個資產虛擬資產服務法不能等這邊請教主委現在國際上非常關注的RWA這個就是實體資產"},{"start":9199.838,"end":9224.592,"text":"代幣化像是債券基金房地產的輸入化還有實體資產代幣化這些從實驗階段已經走向主流的一個金融體系最新的數據顯示如果不記錄穩定幣這個代幣化的市場規模已經突破250億美元相較於去年一年前大概是4倍"},{"start":9225.632,"end":9246.517,"text":"一年前是64億美元那今天審查版本有提到創新實驗那我認為說如果監管過於保守那可能就會錯失推動我國成為亞洲資產管理中心的一個好機會那監管會目前的RWA代幣化小組已經有初步的報告未來是否已經預留彈性空間讓虛擬資產不只是買賣投資還能夠與實體"},{"start":9251.759,"end":9266.677,"text":"產業結合那未來金管會是否會主動引導銀行與合規的VSP合作推動資產上鏈的試點計畫而不是讓台灣的一個金融創新停留在實驗室的階段"},{"start":9268.62,"end":9289.537,"text":"是 當然我應該提到其實RWA全世界大概現在應該是交易大概300億美元左右剛剛跟委員講的差不多那但相較於比如說虛擬資產3.3兆美元還是比較小那比如說我們我們的穩定幣大概也有3000多億的這樣一個所以RWA在過去呢大概還是在等於說在剛開始"},{"start":9292.006,"end":9318.855,"text":"這個發展的階段不過大家有看好他的潛力啦齁那其實我們在過去呢其實一直很持續的去針對RWF怎麼樣落地在台灣有非常非常多的討論那我們也最近也都按照我們現在過去的實驗的結果呢逐步在讓他落地的過程當中我想如果有有相關的決議我們會很快的跟社會做報告接著請教主委齁現在的這個"},{"start":9320.92,"end":9338.373,"text":"詐騙集團的犯罪手法早就不是單純的電話詐騙或者是虛擬貨幣的交易它結合了自建的平台、地下會對、即時通訊還有人頭賬戶形成一整套去中心化"},{"start":9339.173,"end":9362.313,"text":"那這些平台不需要對外公開也不需要上架到這個交易所更不需要真正的一個區塊鏈技術就可以模擬出虛擬資產的一個流通效果讓資金在帳面上移動但是實際上卻透過車手跟地下管道完成交付不只是洗錢啦它涉及的詐騙還有更高風險的一個犯罪"},{"start":9363.354,"end":9384.591,"text":"那未來一旦專法通過 經法會是否能夠針對這些未許可的影子平台建立更快速的一個行政查緝跟刑事移送機制不是像現在都只被動的來等待民眾的報案能夠更有力道來執行這一些查緝"},{"start":9385.307,"end":9411.227,"text":"其實我們從過去打炸專法裡面就把VASP納入到我們的這些執行的範圍這是我們專法裡面特別有一條來強化這一塊我們也會有一個執法不過剛剛委員提到就是說自從我們開始採用登記制以後所有這些東西你只要沒有經過許可去做這件事情的時候大家都違法我想過去我們的檢警調其實已經查獲主動查獲非常非常多這樣的案例我想"},{"start":9412.989,"end":9426.201,"text":"這個是會要透過跨部會來協作啦我們在這方面呢我們會透過立法約束那其他如果你沒有合規的部分除了透過民眾檢舉以外主動偵辦我想這個各部會都已經在做"},{"start":9429.579,"end":9444.591,"text":"這個我想虛擬資產的一個去中心化跨境特性它已經成為國內詐騙跟洗錢犯罪的最佳的護盾那犯罪集團利用境外平台作為這個資金的中轉站他就是看準的說我們的這個監管"},{"start":9446.432,"end":9468.953,"text":"監管權力難以跨越國境根據今天審查的草案我們已經納入了國際合作跟行政處分的框架面對那些刻意躲在監管寬鬆的地區甚至於說明知是詐騙洗錢仍然提供服務的這些境外平台我想我們不能只有這種"},{"start":9470.635,"end":9487.987,"text":"柔性的請求那我們應該是要有實質的一個斷根手段的一個做法所以我想說針對這個我想要請教主委說願不願意針對刻意服務台灣詐騙與洗錢的這些境外評改它是已經是針對"},{"start":9489.508,"end":9504.715,"text":"就是刻意在服務這些詐騙集團 洗錢集團的一個境外平台那監管會建議具體的一個法律機制例如譬如說限制他對台灣的一個金流往返要求金融機構或者是支付系統全面阻斷"},{"start":9505.635,"end":9526.94,"text":"全面阻斷那甚至於強制退出台灣市場的一個強硬措施主委可以這樣子當然任何非法的平台我剛剛講過以現在的法規它就是違法我們就已經按照中華民國法律就要嚴格查緝但是它如果要在境外的部分我剛剛講過我們一部法律能夠有更多的控制節點的話"},{"start":9528.42,"end":9552.696,"text":"對於像這樣的一個不法行為的掌控就會更高比如說剛剛委員提到假設我們已經有很明確的黑名單 灰名單這部分就我們受管轄的這些虛擬資產或是金融業者那我們就可以建立相當的防控機制這些都是未來我們必須要強化來努力的部分就是說我們在這部專法已經設計更多的"},{"start":9553.456,"end":9559.964,"text":"那個掌控點那這個未來當然是對這個東西的保護當然會更周延啦這也是我們立法很重要的目的"},{"start":9561.121,"end":9590.094,"text":"好的 我再請教主委就是未來專法的落實就是說強制要求所有與台灣有業務往來的平台這些境外平台必須要全面落實我們一個轉帳規則如果說在法律上不願意提供清楚的交易身份資料我們就直接視為說是一個非法營運由金管會這邊來採取斷絕金流或者是撤銷許可的一些強硬行政措施"},{"start":9591.089,"end":9607.377,"text":"我是要求金管會一定要強硬對 當然就我剛才講說違法的事情這一定就是沒有什麼沒有什麼這個空間啦剛才委員提到假設他境外假設他今天是一個友誼的我們假設境內的這些Vets包括金融機構要跟他做往來的時候"},{"start":9607.777,"end":9622.988,"text":"他已經被列入黑名單或是甚至可疑的灰名單這時候我們就可以對國內這些業者進行管理對不對他就不可以跟他做往來這其實上就像我們現在規定我們現在金融業不可以跟沒有跟我們合規的交易所進行往來是一樣的"},{"start":9624.289,"end":9645.627,"text":"所以請主委一定要在這個保護被害人這個辛苦血汗前不被詐騙那打擊犯罪的這些惡意犯罪這個洗錢集團的這樣子的一個信念那我們一定要用強硬的手段來做後續這些事情好不好是當然是好的謝謝謝謝委員謝謝我們結束嚴寬委員的質詢接下來請林思敏委員"},{"start":9663.985,"end":9688.337,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請我們金管會彭主委請彭主委委員好 主委早 主委那個虛擬貨幣的領域已經長期處在一個空窗期的階段所以我們虛擬資產服務法院版到底什麼時候可以提出啊我剛報告過因為院理審查完畢應該"},{"start":9689.861,"end":9695.823,"text":"我想請問這部專法如何能做到適得其所在健全市場秩序的同時避免說我們的監理過當而扼殺了台灣本土的金融科技創新"},{"start":9714.093,"end":9735.736,"text":"如何讓他適得其所第一個適得其所第一個先要給他一個明確的身份跟地位我想這是所有在市場上要取得社會信任非常重要的就等於說我法規上給他明確的法律定位以及業務範圍這樣可以阻卻非法跟合法之間的分際這是一個第一步"},{"start":9736.317,"end":9758.639,"text":"那再來就是我們規範的合理化以及有前瞻性比如說我們現在規範合理未來有發展的空間我想這一部法律應該都是大概用這樣的方式來前進OK很好我想主委觀念非常正確我想虛擬資產不是未來也是而是現在進行式全球市場的規模動輒上兆美元"},{"start":9759.58,"end":9776.526,"text":"那我國的投資人參與程度也非常的高但是目前的狀況我們看到是零散的監理法制落後風險外溢虛擬資產市場雖然目前經歷那個Terraluna的崩跌以及FTS的倒閉兩大震盪"},{"start":9777.446,"end":9790.835,"text":"但截至今日為止就3月23號全球加密貨幣的市值大概還有2.4兆美元其中比特幣市值約1.4兆美元市佔率大概56.15%穩定幣的市值大概3122億美元也大概佔12.94%"},{"start":9799.921,"end":9823.21,"text":"那麼根據2021年IMF與金融時報的數據全球的市值總共仍然穩守在1兆美元以上那麼台灣在FTS的事件中的損失規模高達新台幣600億元全球排名第七所以可見我們台灣潛在的投資人非常的多"},{"start":9824.17,"end":9851.853,"text":"那麼用戶的規模也非常的多那我請問這個 主委我們有做過調查嗎我們大概推估啊現在我們台灣只有虛擬貨幣的人大概有多少人其實我們現在是就一般民眾我們沒有辦法知道他這樣那我們只能知道我們現在已經納管就沒有推估我們沒有推估我們現在納管的業者裡面我們有請他提供他營業的資料我們大概推估現在就是他大概開戶數大概100萬左右剛才跟委員說明過了"},{"start":9852.554,"end":9853.776,"text":"那裡面還有100萬人開戶就是他的客戶數差不多將近100萬左右"},{"start":9859.537,"end":9884.144,"text":"市場規模呢市場規模的話就相對部分我們還在跟他講我們如果有在統計因為現在有個工會在所以未來有了法規之後我們就會詳細知道這些數據當然當然我們現在就在統計了啦這個部分既然有工會我想其實根據就是說我們這個推估就是媒體的報導推估數值我們的市場規模大概在800億到1500億美金"},{"start":9887.085,"end":9915.038,"text":"就大概有台幣2.5兆到4.5兆所以這一塊呢確實需要我們專法來加以這個去做監管所以我想請教主委我們在監理的密度方面根據歐盟MICA的精神是應該針對不同的規模與業務性質進行分級所以金管會認為應該採取比例原則與兩體財醫還是比照銀行法採行高度嚴格的全面牌照制"},{"start":9916.098,"end":9936.776,"text":"其實剛剛委員講我們這次做的跟過去比較大的不同就是我們是採用就是所謂的這個不同業別不同執照的申請方式那跟剛剛委員提到比如說銀行它是一個大執照的概念但是我們這裡比如說我們總共大概有七個業態由你自己來決定來申請可以重複也可以單獨"},{"start":9937.927,"end":9954.758,"text":"是 所以對於這種小規模的虛擬資產服務商我們不會一律要求比照銀行法這樣的一個資本額營業保證監理 營業控制度讓他有一個創新的空間嘛對 他可以比如說就像我們有一家只做移轉商他就只有取得這樣的一個內容"},{"start":9955.939,"end":9968.151,"text":"所以我本席的提案然後看這個主委你站不站身我的提案版本中增設簡易登記類的VASPER允許小規模的業者以報備制來納管主委你認為這樣是否能夠兼顧那個產業的創新啊"},{"start":9973.195,"end":9989.602,"text":"這其實我們現在來看的話就是因為我們現在假設啦相較於我們過去對金融機構的監理我們的要求可以分幾種不同等級剛才委員提到像銀行它的設立就是100億這是非常非常高的門檻像我們的保險公司大概20億左右"},{"start":9990.242,"end":10015.829,"text":"那比如我們證券的話一個差不多4億一個業別那相較之下我們未來對虛擬資產的這些的要求應該是屬於比較偏向證券業這樣的一個規模不會用一個剛才講的因為畢竟經營的範圍經營的內容跟生產跟生活還是很大不同我的提案聽起來是會沒有就是說如果用報備制的話有可能會整個我們用核准制會產生一個這個所謂的差異"},{"start":10016.829,"end":10029.636,"text":"我們現在從這個分不同的業別就已經有這個精神那我們還是希望說這個產業還是要經過我們用一個事前許可的方式用報備畢竟是在過去我們的執照上很少用報備制來做"},{"start":10031.567,"end":10054.395,"text":"主委我們關於穩定幣的分類與監理我們有境外落地的一個挑戰我想這個穩定幣的幣值它佔虛擬貨幣市場的交易量目前看起來超過80%而且它已經具有支付工具的潛力目前的市場主流是USDT和USDC這種境外發行的法幣這個背對型的穩定幣"},{"start":10056.736,"end":10082.268,"text":"所以請問對於我們境外穩定幣的實質落地條件是否應該區分全背對型與演算法型的不同風險其實現在我們法規應該不會開放演算型過去很多出事的大概就演算型那我們還是開放以法幣作為直接擔保抵押就不會接受演算型的這個穩定幣"},{"start":10084.369,"end":10108.969,"text":"好那另外關於去中心化協議啊這個DeFi的與境內影響性原則虛擬資產都是來自境外嘛目前去中心化這個的金融的協議的DeFi的盛行請問如果要求境外平台必須在台設立法人並取得許可這在操作面上是否可能存在盲點其實這個問題如果說各位"},{"start":10110.931,"end":10129.876,"text":"其實委員在您的版本也有提到這個概念就是我們希望說境外的在台灣你一定要有據點的呈現再來就是我們現在境外的資產境外的各式各樣的虛擬資產如果你要在台灣的合法的VASB上面上架的話你必須要經過我的同意這樣的話以確保否則現在"},{"start":10131.363,"end":10147.549,"text":"等於國際上虛擬資產五花八門各種它沒有實體對就是比較那些可能比如說空氣避一大堆這種東西我們基於保護交易人的那個角度我們希望能夠經過我們同意才在國內的虛擬資產業者的交易平台上出現對所以未來我們如何認定"},{"start":10150.711,"end":10166.252,"text":"認定這些沒有實體透過智能合約運作這些DeFi或者不打算在台設點卻大量有台灣用戶的這些境外的巨頭啊軍管會如何認定其實質營運人啊要如何去認定"},{"start":10168.294,"end":10190.799,"text":"他在境外他一定有提供一個產品或是一個服務這個服務要接近我們的交易人他必須透過我們的VASP業者那VASP業就是我剛才講的一個掌控點剛才有跟委員報告就是說我們面對境外的話我們國內有更多我們監管的掌控點的話就可以進行這樣的一個規範跟約束這樣也是維持市場公平的這個"},{"start":10192.139,"end":10216.4,"text":"整個產品跟有序監理這個我的版本中我有引入境內影響性原則只要對本國市場產生重大影響即應納入這個監理的一個邊界現在的那個草案就是這樣就是這樣嘛就是往這個草案來做像委員版本說你沒有就是境外你沒有加入工會不能營業這本來就是這樣是好"},{"start":10217,"end":10231.286,"text":"我想虛擬資產涉及支付稅務洗錢增辦與技術研發絕非金管會一個部門可以獨立完成所以本席的提案版本認為必須跨部會的來做這個做等一下"},{"start":10236.516,"end":10263.521,"text":"就跨部會的做協作模式的法制化來邀集央行、法務部、財政部、數位部等單位跨部會的協作模式才能避免多頭馬車或權責不明而主管金官應在執法中明定各部會的執掌例如央行負責穩定幣對貨幣政策的衝擊評估數位部負責技術安全的認證所以主委你是否支持這種跨部會協議機制的明文化"},{"start":10264.481,"end":10289.524,"text":"其實剛剛委員講的就是這個假設完整的分化會是這樣做但是實際上基於監理的整合更比較像說應該就像我們草案裡面提到穩定幣是由財政部來主政但是相關的法規我們要匯商央行同意的方式等於說是我們共管的方式那假設這樣的像剛剛委員的建議這樣的一個管理架構比較少見但是跨部會協作"},{"start":10291.366,"end":10305.745,"text":"這個絕對要做但是怎麼在一部法律裡面誰主要負責誰負責協助一起同意那我想這個是我們在未來立法像我們的草案裡面對於穩定幣就非常明確就是要經過跟央行跟金管會之間的協作這樣"},{"start":10306.266,"end":10322.119,"text":"所以基本上這個精神是支持的這本來就應該要這樣草案裡面法條裡面要怎麼寫 對對對對這個要再做研議啦其實謝謝 我們也會一樣會會去做這件事情好 以上好 謝謝謝謝結束林思敏委員的質詢接下來請劉淑冰委員"},{"start":10334.343,"end":10336.944,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請彭主委主委好主委早我們今年已經看到各國就相繼通過了穩定幣的法案那您也在今年有說了就是說今年下半年的預計要開放金融機構要發行穩定幣那想要問的是台幣的穩定幣是一定會發行的嗎如果在開放的這樣金融機構發行的"},{"start":10363.311,"end":10375.194,"text":"那它的需求有這麼大嗎?尤其是我們知道目前我國是一個國際經貿的大國那大部分的資產資金的兌換都是用美元來計價那現在USDD、泰德幣跟USDC都已經是變得主流的話那台灣的銀行機構在發行台幣的穩定幣到底有多少?有那個必要還有需求規模大概是多少?"},{"start":10390.96,"end":10418.407,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛提到就是說其實我們未來什麼時候會有由我們本地發行穩定幣那要等立法通過以後我們相關的穩定幣發行的辦法出來就可以來申請受理那受理審核還有一段時間我想說這部分大概會按照法制進行是剛剛委員講的確實是一個事實就是說未來假設以穩定幣按照我們現在的規定裡面"},{"start":10419.907,"end":10444.754,"text":"那個草案裡面是有兩個一個就是以他的指名叫法定貨幣法定貨幣當然包括台幣跟外幣這個部分都是可以的那至於說剛剛委員關心說那未來台幣穩定幣會不會有人發行這要交給市場市場誰會來發行他有提這個需求但是我們在做制度設計一定會想說那未來這個發行有可能的所謂的場景跟用途在哪裡"},{"start":10445.934,"end":10461.153,"text":"剛剛委員提到假設是國際貿易支付的角度我想大家都知道那比如說我們市場上已經有強勢的幣別像美元就是國際支付的強勢的幣別那我想這部分大概在支付上面台幣上所能扮演的角色是比較有限"},{"start":10462.074,"end":10478.807,"text":"但是另外一個就是說假設是境內的部分的使用或是說假設未來我們也開放RWA以台幣計價的這些商品上鏈交易的話那勢必就要用台幣計價的貨幣單位來交易就有可能它的場景"},{"start":10479.788,"end":10495.685,"text":"但還就是說我們會看起來好像是還在一個規劃當中預期他們要去評估就對了看起來這個這樣的一個規模或是他實際的需求性實際上在台幣穩定幣的需求是少的對就是說這我們交給市場好對"},{"start":10498.407,"end":10505.392,"text":"所以看起來沒有什麼解決的問題但是我們現在在想到的是我們再往下看因為在穩定幣的這個如果普及的話如何助長民主很痛恨的這樣的一個詐騙問題我們看到現在呢有賴著配這些的藉口支付的這種貨幣也是這種數位貨幣這樣的一個成型但是如果他們還"},{"start":10520.903,"end":10526.707,"text":"穩定病在台灣普及化的話對詐騙集團來說他等於是省下購入到人頭賬戶的高昂成本還有與賬戶被凍結的時候資金被圈存的危險只要把被害人他的錢引到穩定 換成穩定病的而且成立的零門檻又不具名的這個冷錢包的話可以看一下左邊這個冷錢包然後再把它打入這樣這個混閉器當中就可以輕鬆的阻斷橫跡到海外去那這樣的話"},{"start":10549.924,"end":10559.271,"text":"就會造成說他們詐騙集團的這樣的成本非常降低那這樣的話請問金管會你有什麼樣的措施要去防避防避這樣的一個問題"},{"start":10565.896,"end":10581.428,"text":"我們現在這些的幣跟這些的交易都在市場上已經存在了那現在我們是假設今天討論這部專法如果設立以後我們有更有這樣的一個基礎跟法源來強化這個東西一定會對這個東西是有正面的幫助"},{"start":10582.609,"end":10601.374,"text":"先做個說明本主委再來就是說冷錢包的狀況跟現在的情況跟你是一個開放的是不是不一樣的我說接下來就是我們在這部專法裡面本來就是我剛才跟幾位委員報告過了比如說我們透過更多合規業者的管控他的交易對手比如說"},{"start":10602.114,"end":10630.109,"text":"其實未來如果你要透過我們合規交易你必須做好完整的KYC你必須這個實名制完全知道你這個人是誰然後接下來你會去哪裡這件事情可是冷錢包的部分是沒有連上網的這樣是一個封閉的體系如果從交易所的錢匯到冷錢包去這樣子根本就沒辦法的只有他自己知道的那些的這個這樣的密碼等等的尤其這樣又到混閉器當中是根本沒辦法這樣看起來是非常大的漏洞啊"},{"start":10631.296,"end":10656.822,"text":"我想說這部分我們會從整個監管角度畢竟這些大概都是我們面臨到的挑戰這部分我們也會跟我們的相關的檢調單位跟技術團隊來解決這個問題比如說我們針對未來這個客戶誰跟我做交易比如發現我那邊誰到最後這個我那邊交給誰這部分都是實名制的話我覺得這個追蹤的軌跡就會比以前好很多"},{"start":10657.162,"end":10683.519,"text":"沒有但是你如果已經到交易所之後後面的相關的部分真的那個冷錢包的問題根本就沒辦法解決因為它本身就是一個不具名的而且要跟連線上網去了解的這部分看起來主委您現在已經在有點是在重複在回答這一部分其實沒有得到一個結果希望說金管會這邊一定要在未來在虛擬資產服務法當中的設定當中要跟要針對這樣的一個實質上的問題要好好去解決"},{"start":10685.52,"end":10705.625,"text":"對 這個技術性的問題呢 我想說我們會 既然委員提到 我們會接下來請我們的相關單位去好好去處理我再跟委員做個回覆好 那大概說多久會出來嗎 有沒有規劃的話這個技術上的問題 如何解決混閉器的問題我想說我們會請我們技術單位呢 告訴委員該怎麼做 我再跟委員說明"},{"start":10706.564,"end":10709.225,"text":"好 那個時間就希望盡快了大概兩個月之內可以可以 好那我們繼續往下看現在台灣作為全球第七大的中差區在上次的這個FTS的這個交易事件當中是這麼大那如果現在如果我們的虛擬資產服務法它通過之後"},{"start":10728.015,"end":10742.71,"text":"如果這樣子國外的他們這個幣安等海外交易所不配我們的房價跟洗錢的規範然後甚至也沒有在台灣在落地申請這個牌照那請問一下金管會有什麼具體措施來因應呢"},{"start":10743.544,"end":10761.152,"text":"我想剛剛委員提到這個問題任何一個國家的法律基本上大部分都是以自己的轄區為主你也很難去直接除了有國際合作跟國際條約我想這是大家共同面對到在跨國境的虛擬資產交易大家必須未來為什麼要強化國際合作非常重要"},{"start":10761.932,"end":10776.747,"text":"那至於說剛才委員提到的概念就是說假設我的國人他們都是透過我們合法的交易所去交易的話那比如說其他境外的公司他就沒辦法直接接觸到我們的投資人的話那中間這個節點我們就可以做這樣管理比如說"},{"start":10777.668,"end":10795.346,"text":"我剛剛跟委員講就是說其實我們現在很多的這些比如說虛擬資產業如果你不是合規的話我們就要求我們的金融機構不可以跟你做往來我就不會入金這本來就是一個很很重要的監理法規的要求這個就是我們納管的一個好處這是也是其中一個做法"},{"start":10795.906,"end":10817.834,"text":"主委這個問題在如果金管會沒有現在的監管或跟金融機構把他設立的他們這個交易的方式的話其實他現在就已經是跟在網路上面他就實際可以在他們的交易所裡面這樣去做這樣的交易那你這樣我提出來的方式不是等於說我們的虛擬資產服務法如果真的制定出來也沒辦法去沒有辦法去監管到他們他可以跳過你們的這樣方式"},{"start":10821.455,"end":10849.097,"text":"剛剛委員報告就說他今天經過我們國人他最容易接近還是我們合規的這種機構還就是合規的這交易所那這部分我們就加強管控我們一定是這樣來做的嘛這應該是這樣有效的措施讓他運役到台灣來落腳來發行譬如說假設我們今天我們能夠給予監管以後大部分的我想民眾大概會比較相信政府監管的業者"},{"start":10849.497,"end":10868.33,"text":"那這樣我們就達到這個目的畢竟說你自己要在網路上跟一個境外的交易你必須承擔更多的風險我想這部分剛才跟委員報告過全世界我們在面對虛擬資產是共同的大家都有共同的問題不是說台灣特別厲害可以解決這些問題但是這個因為大家都共同的問題"},{"start":10869.811,"end":10890.904,"text":"國際合作解決但是我們必須先做好自己本國內的這些監管法規規範當然當然現在現在大家的努力就包括我們剛剛民眾黨所提的版本都希望這個制度更健全對所以說我想大家目標都是一致那我請問一下新加坡像是香港綠大社會是怎麼處理法針對像是讓它落地請問一下剛剛說的像碧安他們在海外交易"},{"start":10891.924,"end":10907.711,"text":"這樣子有沒有落地來申請牌照比如說委員剛剛提到那家公司他也不是在全世界大部分國家都有落地他大概是在一些部分國家有落地很多國家對不同的地商之間有不同的規範他也不是說全部都地方都有設計像剛才講說因為這個部分呢"},{"start":10911.633,"end":10921.984,"text":"因為它牽涉到各個地方的規定還有就是說我們對獨特的法規的要求所以你說的交易的合作這個國際合作就還是沒有一個好像是空殼子"},{"start":10923.309,"end":10946.22,"text":"這方式啊 因為如果你說怎麼樣去增加國際合作事實上是不太清楚的啊就像比如說我們犯罪的國際合作就是就是一個很重要的比如說為什麼一個罪犯會從其他國家被引渡到我這邊回來一定雙方有個協議否則他在海外我是我也沒辦法對他行使我的治權嘛這很正常對不對但是假設是一個大家共同的罪犯 大家透過協定就會被"},{"start":10947.301,"end":10974.175,"text":"對 可是您說的是國際合作竟然是在做犯罪的主防而不是在說讓他們願意落地來去在那個交易我們有一個開放你可以來台灣申請子公司或是分公司都可以這個東西就會進入到我納管中去那就納管 可是他如果現在這種你就是他如果你沒有讓他願意下來落地那他就沒辦法直接的面對我們台灣的客戶也沒辦法跟我們金融機構做這個比較便利的往來他就增加交易的很大的困擾"},{"start":10975.275,"end":10990.502,"text":"好 謝謝我們結束我們結束劉淑冰委員的質詢接下來王世堅王世堅王世堅委員不在接下來林楚英林楚英林楚英委員不在接下來曾振謙曾振謙曾振謙委員不在接下來請洪孟凱委員好 主席謝謝麻煩請我們監管會捧主委"},{"start":11004.608,"end":11012.494,"text":"主委好我想今天本席特別還是要過來再一次的來質詢以及救教其實最主要真的還是看到說虛擬資產服務法"},{"start":11014.622,"end":11036.132,"text":"你們去年三月的時候已經有提出公告並且六月的時候已經報行政院那也將近快一年的時間我剛剛聽到有幾位委員在質詢就請教是說那到底什麼時候院版可以出來那跟目前為止的進度因為你其實開宗明義本期剛剛也把你們金管會的版本看完了你的前提寫得非常好啊"},{"start":11036.832,"end":11055.18,"text":"你也講是說歐盟日本韓國等世界先進國家也都有針對相關的虛擬資產貨幣來去做一個相關的一個法律專法這第一所以我們要跟上嘛第二健全就是說健全整個金融體系嘛不要說再變成是各自為政或說無法可管的狀況對好"},{"start":11056.701,"end":11079.2,"text":"那其實現在大家在看的是說那我們的態度跟積極度來主委給你再說明一下因為這也是外界大家都看的就是說不要說只是放了然後到最後行政院就卡著那到底是哪一個部會在卡沒有沒有其實跟委員報告啦就是說實際上我們6月27號送進去接下來就是行政院就非常非常密集的審查中間經過兩位政務委員協調各個部會"},{"start":11083.262,"end":11105.289,"text":"現在主要有問題的是在哪一個部分現在沒有問題了現在我剛才講過行政院已經完成所有的審查程序現在就是要報行政院會通過這個程序就會送進大院來所以這個會期就可以出來囉我沒辦法代行政院回答不過我接收到的程序跟訊息應該會在很快的時間就會送過來了每個禮拜四都開行政院會嘛"},{"start":11106.009,"end":11133.984,"text":"對所以本席也才納悶的地方是說為什麼連今天我們的召委要排審這相關法令其實照理講院版如果說可以出來的話其實下委就可以來主條啊對不是嗎正常我也希望說院版來一起討論啊但是就是說大家可能有其他的比如說希望這個所以外界都在看因為我剛剛有聽到一個我比較訝異的地方是講是說你回答其中委員是講說還不確定時間所以我只是想要確認這個會期我們能不能有實質的討論"},{"start":11134.864,"end":11159.611,"text":"因為我是金管會我沒辦法幫行政院回答他但是你是主管機關所以你應該是已經了解我現在不是在套你話我只是說了解你如果說該溝通要溝通要積極push嘛現在全部都已經溝通完畢沒有問題純粹行政程序而已了所以行政程序那這樣子本期就認為是說你應該是可以最快的速度禮拜四說不定行政院會就可以來排案了嗎我們希望說能夠盡快的排"},{"start":11160.351,"end":11183.478,"text":"為什麼我們會認為說這個東西那麼重要其實最主要在於是過去到現在我們都還是看到我們譬如說虛擬資產貨幣有廣告行銷的一個部分跨境業者的一個納管穩定貨幣的發行或者是退場機制等等問題都還是需要用專法來去做一個釐清所以不要讓這個市場長期在灰色地帶裡面操作嘛我就講啊"},{"start":11184.258,"end":11202.495,"text":"我其實很納悶就是說我們看那個新聞啊有什麼藝人 什麼大戶一次被賠掉了幾億幾億元我們心裡想就是說這個東西現在在台灣是怎樣人人都可以買得到了是不是當然現在來講 只有順暢主委你自己有沒有投資啊我沒有投資是"},{"start":11204.686,"end":11220.367,"text":"我現在沒有投資所以我說那現在是人人都會買因為其實你看到新聞或是相關畫面其實很多人大家都在討論這個虛擬貨幣因為以前我在學校的時候我有指導學生去研究過這個東西我知道怎麼購買當然知道怎麼運作"},{"start":11222.928,"end":11241.912,"text":"對,所以現在確實如果你要買的話我們是可以買,我們有交易所我們現在有合規的交易所在所以你可以透過這個方式去購買是所以我還是再釐清一下就是說在這個專法的一個部分因為我看到是說有我們幾位委員版本那我們真的期待是說願版能夠進出的出來"},{"start":11243.293,"end":11262.67,"text":"其實大家的方向都很一致啦只是針對一些技術上的問題因為我們在提出這個草案的時候已經跟我們各個相關團體已經開過20場以上的公聽會其實大家共識度其實蠻高我也期待說假設未來我們院版出來以後還有各個委員一些版本讓他修得更好其實我們今天審查兩個版本其實很多的"},{"start":11264.032,"end":11284.794,"text":"內容其實都很好只是說立法技術上比如說這其實應該要放在執法規範比較有彈性就不用放在母法大概只是這個差別而已就大家其實都有共識度蠻高希望這個東西趕快能夠落地因為接下來一個重頭戲就是我們的執法趕快把它定好以後我們希望台灣能夠真的進入到完備的法治化這個大概是我們的目的啦"},{"start":11285.658,"end":11303.853,"text":"是,本期跟我們財政委員會委員一起共同來督促,也希望說金管會能夠加快腳步,好不好?沒問題,謝謝委員謝謝我們結束洪孟凱委員的質詢,我們今天登記發言的委員均已經完成詢答本會議做如下的決議,說明"},{"start":11308.403,"end":11332.637,"text":"說明詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一周之內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定委員林楚一委員王世堅委員所提的書面質詢都會列入記錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆虛擬資產服務法等兩案另則其繼續審查我們現在"},{"start":11337.148,"end":11345.731,"text":"本會議議程已經進行完畢有不在的委員提補充書面質詢一併列入記錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理我們散會謝謝"},{"start":11360.342,"end":11360.523,"text":"蕃茄"}]}},{"id":"167782","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167782","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8af92a65f88d720feb78568ba5efa48cb629cbc3a6108f1e639b0160faa0cdae515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李貞秀","委員發言時間":"10:07:19 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了,好不好,謝謝張偉剛剛才事過了,好,謝謝這個張偉的問題您可以回答吧"},{"start":262.458,"end":281.853,"text":"就回答陳委員的質詢不管是第四條不管第十一條不管我們中華民國憲法的本文還是徵修條文以及兩岸關係條例都是我們陸委會在處理兩岸事務的基本原則"},{"start":286.874,"end":312.31,"text":"沒有,兩岸人民關係條例第一條以及落會組織法第一條規定的是什麼?請主委告訴我請回答請主委回答問題可以再說一次嗎?兩岸人民關係條例第一條以及組織法第一條規定是什麼?請主委告訴我"},{"start":315.229,"end":340.914,"text":"請邱主任委員回答有關兩岸人民關係條例的第一條以及組織法第一條的相關規定這邊跟廖昭偉報告我們陸委會是兩岸條例的主管機關這個沒有什麼問題那我們就是依法行政我們就是依法行政"},{"start":342.487,"end":361.959,"text":"這是我們的立場今天兩案條例也是在大院三讀通過我想大院三讀通過也是要我們行政部門依法行政我們今天就是依法行政包括今天的正義我們也在依法行政謝謝"},{"start":365.603,"end":372.857,"text":"謝謝主席邱主委在上節目的時候說如果同時擁有中國大陸的戶籍就會善失台灣人的身份"},{"start":373.7,"end":401.783,"text":"但是本席從1999年核發台灣身份證與台胞證到現在已經27年戶籍早在27年前就註銷沒有雙重戶籍從來沒有中國護照我的身份完全合法合規官方從來沒有撤銷過我的身份本席就是百分之百的台灣人所以我這樣的理解有錯嗎請主委回答"},{"start":403.888,"end":411.275,"text":"我從來沒有被中華民國撤銷戶籍過,所以我是合法的中華民國國民請邱主委回答"},{"start":421.545,"end":432.381,"text":"那請我們邱主任委員回答有關大陸人士戶籍有沒有註銷以及在台灣權力相關行使的相關問題"},{"start":435.441,"end":449.031,"text":"因為你不直接回答啊為什麼不能直接回答我的問題請尊重每一位委員發言的權利如果說在溝通上面有一些障礙的時候那我們就讓議事能夠順利繼續進行"},{"start":456.051,"end":474.013,"text":"我跟廖召集委員報告我們按照兩岸條例第九條之一在當年2004年3月1號大院三讀通過之後我們建立了所謂兩岸單一戶極致如果"},{"start":475.066,"end":492.934,"text":"你是之前沒有及時放棄這個中國大陸戶籍的人那你在六個月內將喪失台灣的戶籍以及戶籍所衍生的所有的權利那個時候2004年"},{"start":496.791,"end":514.667,"text":"8月31號之後沒有來補繳的人基本上那麼他可能是喪失這個我們台灣的戶籍以及戶籍相關的權利那我們說到李貞秀女士唯一一份放棄"},{"start":515.968,"end":533.826,"text":"中國大陸戶籍的證明是在2025年3月我們也很努力的幫忙找有沒有更前面放棄的我們找遍了移民署相關的資料找遍了海基會相關的資料他只有這一份"},{"start":534.426,"end":559.175,"text":"因此我們兩岸條例第21條你必須轉換身份滿十年才有參選的資格就這一項我們還沒有看到提供新的證據 謝謝好來我要訪博邱主委我還有兩分鐘是嗎剛剛說時間繼續剛才是過了好不好我的台報證怎麼來的如果照邱主委這樣講我沒有台灣身份的時候我的台報證怎麼來的時間繼續"},{"start":565.156,"end":568.159,"text":"對,沒有,他加進來好,那就你"}]}},{"id":"167764","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167764","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8ab8d632c0c29346143e8ac6646e11c8ecc20d8b31dcd6c605451eb654036b25b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:28:11 - 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就是無人機艇的這部分"},{"start":66.144,"end":89.704,"text":"因為無人機的部分就是我們未來這部分是採用這一個我們有軍購部分也有商購部分有偽製部分嗎無人機的部分基本上除了那個攻擊型的那個仿專甲的無人機是有軍售的以外其他的部分的現在的五款是商購公開招標以國內的"},{"start":92.786,"end":117.062,"text":"由國內來產製那另外我們還有一些像瑞恩二型的這種健身型的無人機是偽製請中科院來製所以中科院的預算也含在這一筆特別預算裡面瑞恩二型有擺入我們的特別預算還有攻擊的無人艇都是中科院的沒有無人艇的部分我們會公開招標國內產製的方式所以中科院就是有瑞恩二型的無人機就對了"},{"start":118.243,"end":129.318,"text":"還有強攻的飛彈我們這筆預算有含中科院的預算含未來就是因為我們要有飛鴻供應鏈所以有國內的廠商來做就對了有含美國的技術合作嗎"},{"start":135.826,"end":158.239,"text":"對 我們那個個型的這樣的一個無人機最重要就是要排紅 所以要排除這個紅色供應鏈那另外我們主要是要讓國內的這個產線能夠增加然後來強化我們的國防制度的能力那另外當然我們會跟這個我們的有盟國家來進行相關的技術合作跟技術轉移"},{"start":159.167,"end":176.481,"text":"都還在這裡面就對了我們在分批籌購的這個相關的無人機的採購計畫裡面不管是哪一種的無人機都會有考慮到國際上無人機發展的一個趨勢來進行必要的合作研發所以在政協黨的條例裡面都沒有了這部分"},{"start":177.842,"end":204.145,"text":"我們現在看到的大概民眾黨團應該是就已經公布就是說已經知會國會的那幾個案項然後國民黨團的部分應該也是指就知會國會的那個部分那我想還有其他很多的部分我們事實上在上一次的機密專報裡面有做過充分的說明所以就是在建立飛鴻公園那個部分我看起來是沒有了"},{"start":206.392,"end":233.3,"text":"就因為無人機的部分沒有的話那配用供應鏈這個觀念就當然就沒有了好 那我再請教一下我們的這一個C5ISR還有AIR這個輔助決策還有這個指管的系統那我看在在野黨的條例裡面也沒有了對 他們現在應該沒有考量到C5ISR的指管系統的這個部分是"},{"start":233.885,"end":235.85,"text":"都沒有那這個的重要性在於哪裡咧"},{"start":237.462,"end":263.62,"text":"我想就如同現在螢幕上提出來當然是我們整個的一個大腦的一個建構我想CISR我們在我們的專案報告裡面已經有充分的說明不管是從我們的整體防攻跟黑暗防禦還有我們的聯合反登陸跟聯合國土防衛我們都需要CISR跟這個相關的AI輔助決策系統"},{"start":268.102,"end":295.952,"text":"那請問一下如果有這套系統的話我們的這個急殺鏈的時間可以縮短多久呢應該是說我們現行的這樣子的一個急殺鏈的一個建構透過這樣子的決策系統引進在那個當下的決策的時間整個會縮小所以我們在報告裡面也提到就是說"},{"start":297.432,"end":318.903,"text":"在這個為了因應新型態的話能夠有一個AI的運用的話再結合無人機的話我想我們可以擊殺鏈從數個小時縮短到數分鐘這樣子戰場上一分鐘都非常的重要更何況是說可以從這一個數小時縮短到數分鐘那所以這套系統大概要多久的時間來建立起來"},{"start":326.004,"end":355.126,"text":"包委員這個因為連進入預約的程序都沒有那這個時間要多長當然是在進入預約之後我們才有辦法跟相關城市的廠商來做確認那但是原則上我們希望能夠配合我們各自戰力形成的時間來完成這套系統因為我們買了這麼多武器那我們希望說有這套系統才不會這個各自為政有一個整體的一個圖像嘛應該是這樣子嘛"},{"start":356.107,"end":374.035,"text":"那我們看在野黨的這個條例裡面也沒有這個東西所以我就說綁手綁腳啊對 那因為這個問題我想有一些我們可能還需要私下再跟委員做一個充分的說明好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席 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肉牛吃的這個酒糟對牠的這個各方面就對牠肉質也是相當好所以是金門未來可以發展的一個產業但是金門金門整體來講因為常常有時候農委會那邊農業部那邊常常會說大陸地區發生什麼牛節節啊或是什麼相關的什麼突發性的疫情就整個這個"},{"start":170.182,"end":179.65,"text":"整個產業就是全部比如說飼養肉牛就全部完全禁止輸到台灣地區來就整個禁止輸來台灣所以就造成飼養這個肉牛這個產業變得很不穩定所以這時候我覺得這個保險機制的介入其實是有必要的您看一下"},{"start":189.218,"end":216.762,"text":"那 鬧牛因為價值隨著牠生長階段牠的品種 牠一直有波動嘛那因為保險局沒有辦法精算牠的保費那 農民又覺得定額理賠沒有辦法如果牠養到很後來喔久昭牛的 像我們說和牛啊以後這個基本 基本上現在台灣的這個鬧牛就是現在很流行在外面吃那個就是 您吃過吧 那個 那個鍋有沒有就是新鮮的 生鮮的局長有吃過嗎"},{"start":219.748,"end":220.349,"text":"主委有吃過吧"},{"start":237.714,"end":260.116,"text":"就是現在溫體牛是蠻普遍的,這個產業在台灣現在是蠻蓬勃發展的金門沒有吃過金門沒有,全台灣你有去吃過吧?台灣各地都有,你們都很少吃牛肉喔?對那你看台南啊各地都溫體牛很多溫體牛現在全台到處都是這個產業其實慢慢在蓬勃發展因為溫體牛就是火鍋啊這類的蠻蓬勃發展"},{"start":261.317,"end":280.291,"text":"所以很多什麼標榜和牛啊是不是各地價格都蠻高的那這個肉牛產業我覺得基本是一個可以發展的這個產業那因為現在就是卡到說常常有時候會突然有一些疫情比如說牛結節或其他的這個疫情那這個造成的飼養的就是說如果有人要投入比較"},{"start":280.951,"end":302.726,"text":"有規模的投入的話會擔心嘛一頭牛有不少錢嘛那講幾百頭也是一損失就是在金門因為內需市場不大那養了後供應當地是如果要大規模市場只供應當地是不足一定要往台灣運嘛那台灣現在這個產業大概牧場是不容易有就慢慢沒有那所以事實上也很需要很需要這個溫體牛肉那金門之前養的話曾經有一陣子運到台灣來其實都還銷路不錯"},{"start":307.489,"end":308.653,"text":"那現在我們如果要擴大這個產業的話那現在就是"},{"start":312.728,"end":331.076,"text":"國內政府現在在做乳牛產業做得就是不錯因為有保障為了這個喝鮮奶所以有保障有一定的這個保險有一定的保險有相關的這個掛鉤那所以這個部分現在是不是這個部分可以請這個我們金管會這邊就協助跟農業部農業部因為這個農經保險嘛可以跟農經他有農經署嘛討論一下可以協助一下精算這個漏牛漏牛強制保險這個保費"},{"start":339.88,"end":349.527,"text":"比照乳牛嘛讓肉牛跟乳牛可以一樣享有這個商業保險的覆蓋那這個如果說有可行性的話對於基本以後發展產業那業者願意過去投資的話機會會大一些啦就是說"},{"start":353.171,"end":372.29,"text":"如果萬一損失的話,不至於全盤都沒有嗎?全軍覆沒各位報告因為這個不管是乳牛保險或是一些那個豬隻保險這都是農業部主政的但是如果說他需要我們商業保險的相關的協助的話我們會來協助農委會"},{"start":374.932,"end":398.618,"text":"好那這個是你是希望由農金署來主動那個嗎還是說你們來找他們來開會來討論一下這是農業部主政的保險我知道那我也可以請農金署主動聯絡你們嘛你們一起來討論這個因為這個農金署它本身的相關的有些強制因為保險局這邊對保險公司的這個相關的政策指導的力量會"},{"start":399.418,"end":419.763,"text":"商業保險的技術因為確實在過去我們很多地方我們跟農業部都做很多的合作那有需要的話委員來促成我們都會來那我也來跟農金署聯絡那農金署聯絡的話到時候你們是不是可以在一個月內或是多久內可以提供相關的金額我會主動聯絡他們跟你們聯絡我們看他的需求"},{"start":421.343,"end":436.173,"text":"我現在提的需求是希望比照這個乳牛這個部分那你們做的部分只是找相關的這個精算這個應該是保險局這邊的工作吧那個技術上協助跟經驗協助應該是沒問題好好那多久內你也主動一點沒關係我也會幫忙聯絡了"},{"start":438.091,"end":464.717,"text":"對 就是說當然那個期限假設農業部非常非常清楚他的需求還有就是假設以委員這樣為前提的話我們就請保安局回去跟公會你先主動跟這個公會啦你們這邊就是公會嘛那農金屬這邊你們也可以聯絡我也會幫忙聯絡好不好我們雙管齊下對對 專注這個部分喔盡快是不是在現在是三月底了嘛看四月底五月底都可以給我們一個答案好不好至少有個初步我們要往前推啦"},{"start":465.799,"end":484.571,"text":"我想我們就先初步的一些的評估方式先提供給政策嘛主要還是政策問題嘛不一定是補助因為保險是有費率問題嘛他如果飼養這個產業他有一定的收益他也願意付一定的這個保費因為政治保險跟商業保險思維是很大的不同我知道我知道沒關係你們就從你們也可以從商業保險下去考慮啦好嗎"},{"start":486.192,"end":510.737,"text":"好 謝謝 那下一題就主委了這個虛擬資產專法這個部分我想金門可以扮演一定的角色這個有關金融創新 離島的區塊鏈的這個部分來 您看為什麼金門是一個很適合的測試地就是說這跟之前我們前一陣子上次我們不是有提嗎很多東西金門 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容易看出有沒有錯誤然後萬一有什麼風險事實上也很容易防範的這個地區尤其對於跨部會聯防測試的跨境洗錢的聯防實驗這個部分是不是你可以考慮一下我們推動這個專法裡頭把我們金門定為一個金融創新實驗場地的可行性評估"},{"start":619.811,"end":645.857,"text":"這個是不是可以考慮一下其實剛剛委員提到我們專法的草案第四條裡面我們在所有的金融相關的法令都有放這一條就是說你雖然不是VASP但是你如果有很好的想法你可以來申請創新實驗我想這個應該是沒有地區之別那任何人都可以來申請比如說假設廠商或是業者認為金門有特別的好的地方他就提出申請"},{"start":646.417,"end":650.298,"text":"這個創新實驗是對所有都是一樣嗎假設業者自己覺得在金門有特別他可以按照這條例提出實驗的申請"},{"start":665.464,"end":684.919,"text":"你們可以給我一個這個也做一個報告給我嗎因為是不是是不是可能會遇到什麼問題啊或者是政策上可能有什麼樣的支持啊那這樣子我們可以按照你這個報告我們來看有沒有相關的願意來支援我們過去在整個整個創新實驗的一些的流程一些條件標準給委員參考好好謝謝您謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"167761","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167761","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8ab2233c9956f55b8b3e8ac6646e11c8ecc20d8b31dcd6c605303090bacd9a8aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"10:15:36 - 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謝謝我們一直都是支持的態度但是嚴格的審查因為"},{"start":335.08,"end":349.433,"text":"台灣的財庫不是無底洞啊我等一下要問一下次長喔次長我們現在我們的負債的餘額是多少我們現在的負債餘額如果是用預算數來算的話是6.8兆"},{"start":353.78,"end":377.478,"text":"實際上的餘額是5.8兆那到底這個事情是怎麼樣來的為什麼五年前不需要十年前也沒有說台灣馬上要戰爭啊為什麼搞得好像好像馬上就戰爭了可是真的會戰爭嗎來我們請一下軍事情報局的李執行長"},{"start":379.926,"end":398.268,"text":"我們之前感到很惶恐是說聽說要打仗啦共軍要犯台請問共軍最新的情報會不會犯台委員報告我想我們"},{"start":399.622,"end":419.265,"text":"一定要料敵從寬我們不會去說他一定會犯台或不會犯台我們的國軍的目標就是不斷的累積我們的戰力來達到一個嚇阻的效果那事實上這樣子的一個嚇阻或者拒止的這個戰略"},{"start":420.746,"end":447.314,"text":"美國也是放在他的這個NAS國家安全戰略裡面那我們整個第一島鏈的國家也都在增加國防預算目標也就是在建立這樣一個集體嚇阻能量讓共軍不會覺得哪一天是適合的日子來進行犯台所以加強我們自己本身的戰力加強我們自己的實力部長我要請你要小心一點我最後請審計部"},{"start":451.167,"end":460.343,"text":"陳廷長過去三五十年以來軍購的部分有沒有出現問題"},{"start":464.005,"end":482.302,"text":"跟委員報告一下,像這次F16交機大概延後,我們就有促請公安部要去修改那個發價書,暫緩付款,大概這部分大概有12億美金,大概就是12億的美金就...我的意思是說啦,我們這個一兆多啊,最後會不會流到美國的國庫?"},{"start":484.104,"end":508.181,"text":"還是留到別人口袋裡面?按照現在我們的錢會先匯到他的FRB裡面然後如果要提供給廠商到Trust Fund我想這個基本上是不會過去拉法院案錢流到哪邊去?拉法院案是商購案,它不是軍售商購,這次有商購嗎?目前商購的話是國內或是偽裝就可能要錢目前我還沒有看到所以部長你能不能保證說這些錢不會出問題?"},{"start":511.981,"end":530.079,"text":"我們官部會秉持最嚴謹的立場將一分英豪都花在一個我們的刀口上為什麼以前有中保私囊的事情出現我想跟委員報告軍購案的這個部分剛剛有提到這個政府對政府"},{"start":530.88,"end":558.397,"text":"那FRB是我們在美國聯邦準備銀行設的戶頭那個錢還是屬於我們的那美國會按照它進度的要求會再放到一個Trust Fund裡面去那這個程序可能大家不是很理解這個細部流程那商科的部分我想我們透過相關的這些機合的這個程序不管是採購法不管是相關的這些審計制度都會進行嚴格的一個把關好"},{"start":560.031,"end":584.919,"text":"那請問趙雅萍中將你認不認識他就在這裡那你相不相信他我想趙中將是一個非常嚴謹的一個將領我想他會就他的採購職責做好他應盡的工作那你們所有相關人也要把事情做好啊"},{"start":586.201,"end":586.422,"text":"我們當然會努力"}]}},{"id":"167759","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167759","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a32feeecd02cdb47d3e8ac6646e11c8ecc20d8b31dcd6c60562af07d6823bbab05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"10:06:47 - 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漸進方式來強化整個軍購案源頭的管理針對這些老舊啦 效能不符合的現代這些作戰需求的武器裝備"},{"start":321.441,"end":333.359,"text":"審慎評估其繼續來維護的必要性以降低軍購支出與國防預算之比重以上這些文章摘要內容為維護我國權益我國防部"},{"start":336.002,"end":339.926,"text":"所以委員的意思是說我們軍購案都不要做不是"},{"start":356.653,"end":381.721,"text":"我是說你這個合約只有當方向他們講的算我們去要求而且他就是跟你延宕你也沒有辦法做任何的要求我想如果說委員覺得說我們不能夠進行軍購案那要採商購的話那剛剛也有委員提到說商購的部分我們又按照國民黨的提案又不同意我們進行任何的商購"},{"start":382.301,"end":405.515,"text":"你不要拿他扭轉,我意思就是說你們在訂合約的時候,你們本來就應該要跟人家談好啊。鮑偉我們要澄清一件事情,發架書它不是一個合約,發架書它是一個安全承諾文件。那個議約的合約的部分是每政府跟廠商,它才會訂合約,這是第一點。第二點,我們也不是什麼都不能做。"},{"start":406.567,"end":419.164,"text":"我們針對美方執行軍購案如果他在管理上面有瑕疵我們可以要求他換掉專案辦公室的全體成員是真非但就是這樣的例子那如果他是因為產線產量不足"},{"start":422.128,"end":445.699,"text":"需要更多的人工那我們也會要求他們把人數增加目前F16V不要改動它可以加速的原因就是我們在從前年開始就要求落馬必須要增加產線的人力那它也增加了兩倍的人力同時採取兩班連續趕工我們才有現在的成果所以並不是什麼都不能做我是希望說你這些要"},{"start":447.86,"end":470.88,"text":"這個軍購的這些東西我們一定要站住立場不是他們講什麼我們就怎麼配合完全沒有自己的這個定見跟看法因為我們這些委員我們是代表人民來監督政府當然你付了那麼多的錢我們要是立場站不住又讓人家為所欲為你說我們這些委員算什麼"},{"start":471.721,"end":490.338,"text":"對不對我們是代表人民來監督政府當然你所跟人家制定的不管合約啦不管任何啦一定要有立場嘛不然不能讓人家為所欲為嘛他講什麼我們都任何都不行去跟他做任何的爭辯哪有那回事全世界也沒有這樣的合約啊"},{"start":491.215,"end":516.451,"text":"我想再次跟委員說明,我想軍購就是一個政府對政府的一個行為那你們該要求還是要要求啊對,我們當然,剛剛詹貴士已經說明了,像他舉了這個F16的例子像他舉了剛剛說的,刺針飛彈的這些例子都說明我們這個在專案執行的這些期間我們都會互相綿密的溝通,並且提出要求我是希望你們還是要有立場啦,謝謝好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167789","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a110c4f83ec3c410378568ba5efa48cb629cbc3a6108f1e635639f62fdc189b545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"11:12:57 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他對台的融合發展就是同等待遇那我們都有關注到他可能會 他以前就講過不過從今年開始我想他會加大力度"},{"start":91.408,"end":103.563,"text":"用一些好處利益吸引我們的年輕朋友去那邊就業吸引我們的資金技術到中國大陸參與他們的紅色供應鏈用這個來彰顯他們對台的促統促榮"},{"start":110.15,"end":125.162,"text":"他裡面最主要的核心就像你說的透過經濟利益跟生活便利來吸引人才跟企業但人才我認為他是把年輕人放在重點"},{"start":126.423,"end":153.441,"text":"是對不對那用錢啊用利益啊這樣子吸引年輕人這不是一般的商業的染財而已喔他是重點很針對喔對不對我們的半導體產業在全世界舉足輕重但如果他用錢把我們剛畢業的學生全部都"},{"start":155.606,"end":184.021,"text":"吸引到中國去那對台灣未來的發展我認為是有很大的影響你認為勒是我們平時也在做這個中國大陸基於他統戰持續我們的年輕人或是我們的企業之間到中國大陸發展但是我們就要提出一些風險方面的這種宣導比如說中國大陸現在年輕人的失業率居高不下"},{"start":184.921,"end":211.421,"text":"中國大陸的經濟在下行外資外商撤離那麼嚴重房地產市場非常不正不敢消費不敢投資這樣的經濟的實況我們要讓我們的年輕朋友知道所以我們在校園也好在校園外的各種的嗜毒教育這個是我們日委會跟其他部會一起都在努力的事情讓他們都了解中國大陸的風險"},{"start":213.783,"end":224.897,"text":"不要受到中國大陸只是宣傳統戰的影響中國要吸引台灣的年輕人或人才附中你認為是糖衣還是毒藥"},{"start":227.067,"end":254.179,"text":"我想短期對於一定會有一些吸引力但長期他往往我們也了解做了不少的研究跟實際上面的經驗就是常常口惠而實不至那中國大陸的這種就業的市場還有他們的法律各方面都跟台灣有很大的不同那我們很多年輕人不了解"},{"start":255.539,"end":277.717,"text":"而有一些風險,那這部分就是我們要透過各種管道來強化我們年輕朋友對中國大陸的識讀的了解透過各種我們都知道,然後我想要請問一下我們陸委會知道這個問題那你有沒有跟經濟部啊,比如說經濟部、國會、教育部等等各個部會有去協調,有讓我們年輕人知道這個訊息"},{"start":281.884,"end":298.734,"text":"宣傳的部分或是在做宣導的工作如果會做的比較多但是我們很多重要的資訊我剛剛講中國大會資訊下行他們自己都高失業率了怎麼可能照顧更多的台灣的年輕朋友"},{"start":299.794,"end":327.649,"text":"以及我們到中國大陸求學的人數也在減少去那邊工作的人也在減少這個是從市場規律就可以看出這樣的問題此外剛剛很多委員也質詢到除了經濟下行的問題不管是內部經濟的不正的問題或是對外可能受到其他國家的一些抵制的問題因為過度傾銷還有很多剛剛很多委員也指教很多的政治風險"},{"start":329.21,"end":350.431,"text":"這也是越來越嚴重而且逼著每個台商都要去做政治表態這個是過去所沒有的風險那我們不僅是台商不然是我們年輕朋友都要了解目前最新狀況的中國大陸生活環境跟他們的經商的環境跟過去有很大的不同主委"},{"start":351.252,"end":366.105,"text":"我現在質詢你,你可以講這些,但你要知道,年輕人他的管道,他知道你說的這些嗎?我剛強調的是,你要跨部會啊,包括教育部,包括什麼的啊?我們都有,謝謝。都有?我覺得我看到的很少耶,你們都有。你剛也說,你們說的比較多喔。"},{"start":374.272,"end":398.426,"text":"是,我們很多計畫都是跟各部會計合作,你說在校園裡面的很多嗜讀教育,我們的跟教育部都有很多的計畫在推動那也感謝教育部啦,或是...我覺得啦,其實我自己在很多的管道,很多什麼,我覺得啦,宣傳不足啦"},{"start":399.146,"end":427.219,"text":"反而是人家加大力道透過各種管道在宣傳這些我們的宣傳的真的不足如果只靠你陸委會我說真的啦年輕人也不一定每天去看你們陸委會所有的資訊他要就業他要什麼的他可能經濟部教育部什麼的這是最多我希望你們要有跨部會的合作"},{"start":428.819,"end":438.068,"text":"可以嗎?當然要這也是很必要以陸委會的資源那麼少那我們確實需要各部會一起協力來推動好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a8e584f0fe4613ccf78568ba5efa48cb629cbc3a6108f1e6328cd4c97fd0558ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳清龍","委員發言時間":"10:23:35 - 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就是 我要求我這五分鐘 重新計時我重新計時五分鐘好 你不要吵我的 我的追尋時間 我的追尋時間 時間讓你時間讓你 我的追尋時間 我的追尋時間來 今天請問 沒有往外的沒有關係"},{"start":102.133,"end":112.178,"text":"就沒有立委會,所以今天立委會的存在,就因為有兩岸關係條例,是不是?謝謝,謝謝陳委員好,我主持的意思,孫力邦總長,根據國安部的一個說明"},{"start":121.682,"end":144.145,"text":"他說孫中壯依然務實提出了註銷中國大陸戶籍的正門人件也不用申請規劃最主要他是依據被指台灣地區人民身份及戶籍最後點第六點的規定他就是說七十六年十一月二號"},{"start":145.206,"end":159.995,"text":"一直到現在,93年3月1號,我們修正前,意思就是說,我們在正午開放高度地區Tanchinoa,才有所謂的住宅戶籍的規定。"},{"start":162.297,"end":177.415,"text":"孫中正他是民國76年11月2號出生在中國大陸地區的中華民國國民也已經涉及在台灣地區伊拉、烏西亞"},{"start":179.998,"end":200.171,"text":"特別提出註銷證明,也自其出生時就具有中華民國國旗孫中將七十六年十一月二號我跟主委講,我們的李宗修的人啊,年紀比孫中將還大"},{"start":201.932,"end":213.598,"text":"他是1973年,也就是民國62年出生,他的條件跟孫將軍一模一樣,他76年"},{"start":219.179,"end":242.152,"text":"開始檢查孫中興是76年出生的所以很明顯的民進黨現在就是雙胞在蔡英文時代沒有人會去折扣陸配的產生權所以我們的陸配有很多參與著我們地方的里長議員的選舉"},{"start":244.773,"end":271.931,"text":"今天孫將軍的審問跟李正修委員一模一樣請問請問為什麼最後有國籍跟國籍的問題請主委回答謝謝陳委員的指教有關於你提到這個孫將軍他在71年來台的時候為什麼沒有放棄中華人民共和國的國籍問題第一個就是這個"},{"start":274.913,"end":299.64,"text":"李貞秀女士來台灣的時候,我們兩岸條例已經制定實施了那孫將軍來台的時候,那個時候包括兩岸條例國籍法都還沒有所以孫將軍那個時候還在動員勘斷時期我們那個時候視中共為叛亂團體,當然沒有影響中華人民共和國國籍的問題"},{"start":303.081,"end":326.282,"text":"那但是李貞秀女士來台灣的時候,我們兩岸條例已經公布實施了,我們國際法也有修正,所以我們使用兩岸條例實施了,他才會拿到我們中華民國的身分證,中華民國的護照,也因為兩岸條例有實施啊,是不是?"},{"start":327.023,"end":334.507,"text":"所以跟委員報告我們李貞秀女士來到台灣在1999年確實有定居不過那個時候那個時候的陸配都有雙重戶籍的身份但是我們在2004年就規定另一戶籍"},{"start":355.237,"end":357.878,"text":"所以他們就知道 他們就留下 今天呢 海基會在這喪失 海基會在這裡你真是 他放棄我們一起的證明 包括他們內容已經經過海基會的認證 確實是正本 確實是 只有失效而言"},{"start":377.503,"end":390.907,"text":"他是二零二五年三月談來回來我們在兩案條例第二十一條必須轉換身份滿十年才能都有他的身份內容就在一九九三年就放棄戶籍一九九三年的時候"},{"start":394.528,"end":403.674,"text":"沒有要求陸培要放棄戶籍,也沒有機關會受理我們是在2014年,他在臺灣結婚之後就被放棄入籍我剛剛講的,就是依法,他沒有機關"},{"start":418.264,"end":423.989,"text":"陸配100群的參政權參選100群議員是100人我們希望保障維護陸配的參政權利陸配的參政權利面對你現在群眾的立委會完全批准了除了你政協委員還有我們的里長還有我們的議員現在在在群眾主政局下在你局下"},{"start":441.484,"end":456.535,"text":"保證協陸配的參政權我們一直保證保護陸配的參政權利並沒有這回事那這麼多的議長這麼多這位議員還有這幾位議員你們就是實質的在拖著啊這不是事實我們還是要維護這件事實實合法、守法、陸配的權益大家都守法我們也希望陸委會守法"},{"start":471.223,"end":490.456,"text":"我們當然是守法,而且我們是依法行政我們也是依法取得他的參政的權益所以是依法取得,所以是依法取得再一次的強調,我們也是依法取得他立法委員的資格"},{"start":491.397,"end":499.483,"text":"我們還是強調依照我們有事強調我們有事強調我們有事強調我們有事強調所以不具備有符合兩岸條例的參選資格也沒有依照國籍法的要求若實在我們有要補充的再麻煩我們陸委會後續補充是"}]}},{"id":"167758","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167758","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8ab0b98be9a4b1d940e6927793779d72c5c20d8b31dcd6c605c9a64353dbdea2ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"09:57:06 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委員謝謝主席有請金管會主委主委早安主委早安我想連續兩週等一下暫停一下暫停一下我的"},{"start":28.376,"end":56.85,"text":"好 主委連續兩週就是說我們都在提這個虛擬貨幣這一個專華我想大家都很關心這一個專華那事實上就是說歐美國家對虛擬貨幣的管理其實他們已經逐漸上了軌道那越來越興盛那我在這裡頭全球十大那個就是他的十大虛擬貨幣這些那個交易所列在這個地方"},{"start":59.272,"end":79.145,"text":"每天他就有71兆的業績這十家裡頭只有兩家其實他在我們國內設有辦公室設有辦公室倒是我要特別跟主委請教一下台灣現在有多少人持有加密筆就是你所有的資料裡頭"},{"start":80.942,"end":106.562,"text":"現在我們沒有比較確切的統計大概5到10%左右5到10%左右你這一個5到10%是用2300萬還是1300萬的在股市裡頭不是因為我們主要是我們那個那個虛擬資產服務工會他本質上有對他客戶做一些統計我記得待會請棋局大概一百萬左右的人"},{"start":107.455,"end":135.205,"text":"一百萬還是兩百萬我的數字裡頭超一百萬左右的開戶數一百萬的開戶數在我們國內的這些VASP業者裡面開戶我想主委一百萬還是兩百萬這個未來是因為有些事可能是在境外但是他在比如說他在國內的VASP因為我們所能掌控的就是國內的業者這些合規的業者裡面所承包的數字"},{"start":136.625,"end":160.435,"text":"我們看到一個新加坡的貨幣商他有公佈在2023的時候他公佈就是台灣持有加密幣的人口是57萬那他在這一份報告裡頭他有特別講到了全世界就是印度印度是最多人然後在中國在美國那台灣投入新貨幣交易的人口其實並不多"},{"start":161.415,"end":177.905,"text":"並不多不管是57萬還是100萬裡頭其實他在全球排名才第51名那這樣的一個排名諸位你認為是什麼樣的一個原因讓這個投資的人口其實沒有像全世界是就是"},{"start":178.846,"end":197.722,"text":"在這個加密幣的一個市場裡頭這麼興盛其實我覺得在這個發展的初期去比如說去搶這個排名本質上意義不到我們是怎麼樣管好這個市場以後因為以剛剛委員提到那個金額假設未來它會發展起來它相較現在金融市場還是非常的小"},{"start":199.623,"end":216.373,"text":"我們過去有我們自己的法治結構當然本來就不是一個要跟世界上爭前面第一名但是我們希望把這個結構基礎把它做得穩當我現在的意思是說我在提醒你就是說這個排序只是我們一個參考"},{"start":217.193,"end":232.481,"text":"可是它在未來它有可能等一下在下面我會再跟你做一個探討它越來越多人我們看到一個2022年11月當時候全球第二大的一個加密貨幣交易所"},{"start":235.623,"end":252.07,"text":"那個FTX這個宣布破產了以後台灣也受傷了非常的嚴重在這裡我們投資的人口就越來越多了這個為什麼會超過30萬甚至它損失的美金是4億那受影響"},{"start":252.87,"end":276.66,"text":"受影響那個排序就在第七樓那這個事件其實它有一個很精準的一個數字這個事件反映出來的就是什麼就是我們政府對這個虛擬貨幣的一個監管的不確定性我們簽署具體的一個虛擬貨幣的一個政策跟消費者的一個權益保障其實這個也是一直民眾對投資那個數位貨幣的那個"},{"start":280.322,"end":307.331,"text":"信心不足可是兩年過去了兩年過去了那我們美國加密幣監管正式進入了一個規範體系化的一個時代在上一週上一週3月17號3月17號就是說我們的美國證券交易那個委員會還有那個商品期貨交易委員會裡頭他聯合發布了一個68頁官方的解釋文件"},{"start":308.191,"end":330.86,"text":"那也等於是我想那個主委你非常的清楚那媒體的報導就是說美國政府正式就是說以執法代替監管的一個模式那甚至他把就是這幾個就是前16個主流的貨幣他把電線為數字的一個大宗商品"},{"start":331.48,"end":351.096,"text":"排除就是很明確的排除就是一個證件的一個屬性同時他也敲定了就是挖礦還有質押還有空投這個是三大核心為合法合規那就經管會的一個研議這一份解釋性的文件跟我們監管的一個方向有沒有較大的一個差異"},{"start":351.937,"end":376.928,"text":"我想美國從去年應該講從川普上任以後不斷的釋出對這個虛擬幣友好的措施這是其中之一啦其實台灣我剛才講過就是我們整個也緊跟著國際上的趨勢但是我們會更審慎因為台灣的國情不同我們台灣對整個制度的這個信任的這些的選擇也不太一樣所以我的意思是說這部分"},{"start":377.808,"end":406.812,"text":"我們對這個市場我還是以審慎友好態度並沒有改變但是美國呢或是其他任何一個國家他一些的措施我們都嚴密的去觀察他的結果是如何我們再來看看所以我們看得到川普其實他是不斷的在那個挹注那個虛擬貨幣的一個聲勢甚至我們也看到他推出那個他的總統夫人那個梅尼亞幣的一個紀念幣其實兩年過去了民眾的投資信心回來了"},{"start":407.372,"end":426.249,"text":"可是現在就是要跟金管會討論的就是說之前是無法可管現在有法可以管那管得到嗎那虛擬貨幣的專法至少我覺得建議主委應該處理三大問題就是說我們業者的營運的一個監理"},{"start":428.712,"end":439.332,"text":"這個對我們來講我們期待這三個關鍵還有防炸防盜還有投資風險的一個揭露這個都是非常重要的那特別特別就是說"},{"start":441.294,"end":468.812,"text":"我這裡要請教那個主委就是在這個FTX倒閉的事件的關鍵的三個原因我們把它整理出來就是資金流動性的一個不足資金管理的一個不善還有就是過度依賴那個FTT的代幣那主委可以不可以清楚的回答我這三個問題在金管會的草案的版本裡頭哪一條條文可以管它"},{"start":470.292,"end":492.862,"text":"對 這個其實任何一個過去的案例就告訴我們在過去沒有納管的時代會發生這些問題比如說剛才講的資金流動性不足像我們就看到比如他的資產本身他沒有做隔離而且他在存取的時候並沒有做比如說這個保護像我們的我們現在的草案裡面就規定他的資產你保管客戶全部都要信託那會在不動產上面嗎"},{"start":493.482,"end":516.971,"text":"沒有就等於說他今天保管資產全部信託的話基本上就像上次比如說我們這個當他發生問題的時候就隔離保護了再來就是說你不可以去動用客戶的資產像剛才這個案例裡面他就把客戶轉成是一個沒有價值的幣那到最後擠兌當然就沒有這個問題這個未來在整個高度監管下是不會發生這個事情那你的條文裡頭哪一條是用來就是"},{"start":517.951,"end":532.942,"text":"處理如果是倒閉事件的話你可以就是用這樣的管理沒有關係你在會後那個提供給本席就剛才跟委員報告了就剛才我們的資產隔離還有像比如說我們的信託這些都是一個保護的機制"},{"start":533.322,"end":552.925,"text":"好那我再請教一下就是我們虛擬資產服務法就是業者的營運的問題那服務商必須要有資本額那這個營業保險金這個你是怎麼要求的這個保證金基本上如果說我們所有金融業也都有這個制度"},{"start":553.846,"end":572.666,"text":"比如說我們的資本合會有一個最低資本的限制那你在營業之前要繳交一定比例的保證金這些東西就因應未來比如說你今天真的是停業的時候你也開始要清算這些東西都必須要有這些的保證那這部分也是保障營業安全很重要的機制你沒有回答我啦"},{"start":573.246,"end":598.539,"text":"那我想沒有關係反正這一部專法的執法因為我們還在研議中那特別要請教你就是說母法通過了以後半年可以不可以上路這個是很重要的一個問題我們其實現在所有執法都在準備中我們的目標而且我們的我們法治架構上的要求就是在這個半年之內要完成這些所有的事情"},{"start":601.554,"end":627.33,"text":"法律通過以後我們半年內必須要完成這些事情好那在特別就是虛擬資產服務法裡頭的資安跟保密的問題特別跟那個主委提到了就是說這個14條第二項有關那個資通系統的安全管理制度跟17條的保密事項其實很清楚就是說他希望帳號帳號被偷了錢就不見了那有"},{"start":627.83,"end":645.593,"text":"更好的一個規定就是說你在把那個虛擬貨幣跟那個帳號是分開的這個是確定的嗎對就是說今天來講的話這個資安的程序是保管剛剛講比如說我們對現在對冷熱錢包的比例就已經有規範了這些都是未來我們會納入執法裡面規範"},{"start":647.07,"end":671.327,"text":"最後我想時間有限我再特別跟金管威要求嚴明下面的事項請金管威順便回答我就是美國政府發布的編號3311412這個檢要的研究報告提供給本席然後提供給國內虛擬貨幣交易所的交易情況這個做得出來嗎可以對虛擬貨幣交易人進行適當的風險的示警跟宣傳跟宣導"},{"start":676.351,"end":697.839,"text":"我們也要求業者應該肩負合理的風險的那個揭露的一個義務那鼓勵境外交易所落地在台灣這個有機會做到嗎我們法規裡面就有這個規定所以我們會建立一個消費者跨境申訴的一個管道這部分還要再研議因為這畢竟跨境不是我們單方面可以決定的"},{"start":698.666,"end":722.872,"text":"那像我們的處境這麼困難我們國家的儲錢那個處境這麼困難的話所以跨境申訴的管道我們還需要就是在申部的研擬嗎當然是因為我們只對金融機構但是這牽涉到犯罪還有很多各個部會跟國際的合作有在準備申部的準備我們法條裡面就有一條我們要進行所謂的國際合作的條文好謝謝主委謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"167802","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167802","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8aa31ebd5ea3ec1d6d3e8ac6646e11c8ec0370e869b788f9ecd23dda6d107b523c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"13:18:45 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副局長"},{"start":203.183,"end":228.726,"text":"是啊跟我們說明就是的確就是說基本上我們這個透過這個我們以往就是說軍購的部分我們都是一次編列多年期的預算主要就是能夠整體的規劃就是說整個配套是所以一定要採取特別預算確保對尤其是跟美方這樣在"},{"start":229.346,"end":244.606,"text":"所以說用年度預算跟作家預算都沒有辦法用一次別令的方式所以必須採取特別預算一個關鍵的原因嘛對不對 副局長是的 然後如果年度預算因為它就必須符合年度的舉債的上限那這個基本上在安排上就會有它的困難"},{"start":245.407,"end":266.103,"text":"所以依照目前我們台灣的這個財政能力財政紀律也好不論是這一個我們的GDP可以達到一兆美元來說或者中央負債比只有24.3的情況底下我們在財政能力的話完全是沒有這個問題但是如果沒有一次編族的話可能就會形成一個戰略的缺口這個部分我就要請教一下那個部長有請一下顧部長"},{"start":272.992,"end":299.401,"text":"是 我們今天的專報裡面就特別我們本來說這個專報的角度要怎麼寫所以我們在討論過程當中我們就是要從一個強化防衛作戰整體效能這個部分來做說明我講在書面上 資料部長你們也寫得非常清楚第二三頁的部分為什麼要這樣編列非常清楚我想這個部分之外我想要就教部長一個事情因為最近臉書有在公布說金融時報的部分在3月21號"},{"start":301.282,"end":315.753,"text":"有一個標題就是台灣憂慮美國對伊朗戰士飛彈的存量消耗會影響到未來台海衝突的嚇阻能力然後發言的人又是一個匿名的國防部的官員這個部分是不是代表國防部的立場"},{"start":320.968,"end":345.301,"text":"官員目前為止我們跟美方一直保持密切協調我們採購的那個我只是在求證於說這個部分是不是屬於我們國防部官員對外表示出國防部擔心的地方啊也就是說文章裡頭寫到說空對地的這個飛彈跟戰斧飛彈的一個消耗美國在伊朗戰爭消耗的這個存量無法快速匿補上會不會對台海造成風險"},{"start":346.061,"end":371.068,"text":"我想那個是他的一個評估他現在講的是空對地的巡弋飛彈也就是對地打擊飛彈的這個部分那事實上依我個人的理解美軍他在全球部署他不會把所有的東西都放在一個地方就給他用完他還是要針對戰區裡面會擬定他所需要的最基因為美軍的存量到底多少其實是大家看不到的"},{"start":371.308,"end":400.231,"text":"那是不是有這種擔心因為有一個匿名的國防部官員這麼說這我要求證於部長的原因是這個地方因為既然已經被臉書已經一直在傳播了是不是需要做一定程度的澄清這是第一個問題啊第二個問題這件事情也突顯出來我們特別條例當中在美軍軍購的一個很重要的重點也就是偽製的部分跟商購的部分它其實包括這個天空飛彈也好或者是包括無人機也好攻擊型的無人機也好這基本上"},{"start":400.911,"end":423.861,"text":"就是在對應這種事情的情況底下如果我們有自主生產的話那基本上就不用太過依賴美國他在國防的這個存量的問題是不是這樣的情況更凸顯說這商購的部分跟我們委制的部分的關鍵性是不是應該從這個部分來切入來說明會比較妥適一點 部長就是國防自主優先對啊"},{"start":424.681,"end":445.702,"text":"對 就是說從整體的韌性上來看 我們能夠越不依賴外國那當然我們的國防自主能力的提升絕對是對我們作戰韌性跟作戰戰力的提升是有幫忙的但是有一些我們確實沒有辦法能夠產生出來我們才是軍購所以國防自主優先現在反而會被排去排到這個後面說"},{"start":446.523,"end":462.927,"text":"國防自主不重要這件事情我也沒辦法理解所以我們我剛剛已經一再講特別是就無人載具的這個部分我們要掌握這個排除紅色供應鏈然後我們來扶植國內無人載具產業鏈發展來提升我們國防自主的能力來降低資訊安全的威脅這是我們應該要首要做的地方"},{"start":465.128,"end":476.457,"text":"是 對 部長 我也是說依照現在整個伊朗的情勢來說我們自主國防反而更加的重要應該是從這個部分來發言對國人來說比較安心對整個特別預算的通過會比較有幫助這以上我可以對您的建議 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167801","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167801","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a09dbb9e8feb72d2a3e8ac6646e11c8ec0370e869b788f9ec1d216fa11ae63dd35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:08:54 - 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三千多億不管是在國內的產線也好"},{"start":528.882,"end":548.858,"text":"它不是只是攻擊型包含擒尖針我們現在你又買了海馬仕但是如果沒有無人載具在旁邊獲取這個目標那得到這些擒之再轉交給AI輔助讓我們做好執行去打擊的話那我們要的這些東西只是單點單點一個武器的獲得沒有辦法獲得到打擊的能力或者是防禦的能力"},{"start":549.318,"end":563.427,"text":"所以說三千多億無能載具跟其他軍購偽製或者是商購全部都是整體的震懾力就是要震懾中國這也對台灣來講它才是最好的震懾力好 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"167800","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167800","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a03f95c6e086d76d13e8ac6646e11c8ec0370e869b788f9ec2c7d51a1cd78116b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"12:53:52 - 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麻煩請顧部長我們請顧部長市委馬委員好"},{"start":14.651,"end":36.886,"text":"部長今天我們特別看到今天的報告裡面國防部其實也承認近十年以來國防預算在全民以及立法院的支持底下其實都是大幅的調整那根據外媒的報導我們看到台灣制海飛彈密度已經達世界第一"},{"start":37.947,"end":52.699,"text":"防空飛彈密度僅次於以色列以達世界第二台灣戰機人均密度戰機數量跟台灣人口比例高高居全球第四平均每八萬人就擁有一架戰機這個話"},{"start":55.182,"end":57.144,"text":"主要代表什麼就是代表我們台灣在台灣每八萬國人就要負擔一架戰機的構制那平日它的運行跟維護妥善全民的負荷量高居全世界第四位遠高於聯合國的五常"},{"start":71.919,"end":91.508,"text":"現今全世界的軍事強國包括美國俄羅斯中國大陸印度日本韓國以及英法等國家所以我們看到這麼多的預算在大家都可以支持的情況之下而且也是每年越編越高我們可以看到相關的預算在2015年大概3300億左右那到2026年今年已經編列9495億不管你是不是有納入"},{"start":100.132,"end":126.363,"text":"NATO裡面他們所謂的相關的預算可是事實上它的運用你們也都是用在這個部分所以我們看到像部長之前你在說我們雖然有一些武器裝備它比較落後交付然後我們其他就不部署嗎不是因為我們看到我們預算的編列可以很清楚的看到我們沒有因為它所有的交付延宕我們就沒有"},{"start":128.084,"end":138.967,"text":"就沒有同意所有的國防預算的支出或是編列反而越編越高可是我們在這一次特別預算為什麼會有一些不同的看法跟意見主要是我們的特別預算其實它已經變成常態化"},{"start":144.269,"end":158.002,"text":"甚至有腐爛的狀況因為在過去幾年在民進黨政府執政的這個過程當中我們編列了前瞻特別預算在疫情發生的時候編列了疫情特別的預算在"},{"start":160.184,"end":164.888,"text":"400 將近2500億 編列了我們F16V戰機的一個構置然後還有海空戰力提升然後還有剛在幾個月前通過的國防任性預算 相關的特別預算等等其實編列非常多可是特別預算編列的主要目的 它其實是要有急迫性"},{"start":183.359,"end":200.027,"text":"而且是突發性而且又有相當的緊急性可是我們現在變常態化這是不正常的而且我們騎乘一次編列長達八年可見其實它不是那麼急迫你一口氣要編那麼多我們剛剛看到這些相關的預算如果通通照這樣通過高達兩兆以上這是非常多的當時2025年到2027年"},{"start":207.29,"end":210.953,"text":"那時候不管是國外或國內所有相關的智庫或者我們很多的意見都說2025到2027年尤其是2027年存在大陸公台最大的風險而且他們也具備公台的能力所以當初要買F16V就是說因為中共建軍100週年所以我們也迅速編列了相關的這些特別預算可是到現在他就是還沒有來"},{"start":235.373,"end":247.556,"text":"不管他在美方的產線是怎麼樣他就是還沒有來今天我們要的是在這些過程當中剛剛我們看到的剛剛念到前瞻特別預算其實他沒有很好的成績我們所有的少子化在很多裡面他通通有包括我們的治三防紅這個也都在前瞻特別預算裡面有很多的交通建設也在前瞻預算裡面他應該要做的我們沒有看到成果"},{"start":260.58,"end":263.221,"text":"所以經過過去的經驗我們很希望我們在有限的預算之下尤其是國防預算在現在面對台海緊張的情勢我們應該要怎麼樣把這個錢用得最謹慎然後用得到位而且真正可以增加我們的戰力我們在說武器沒有交付我們看到有我們的將軍們去上節目的時候他說這是假消息"},{"start":288.112,"end":289.555,"text":"如果是假消息應該去對美國抗議因為這是從美國的智庫還有美國的國會講出來的他欠"},{"start":296.923,"end":301.364,"text":"就是他延遲交付給我們的高達215億美元這是6800多億的預算不是說你錢給他而是他應該交付而未交付所以這個如果是假消息就去跟美國抗議如果在這個部分我們還要講的因為你們到現在說只有三項延宕不是因為你們有一些更改了其成我舉幾個例子好了"},{"start":324.41,"end":330.111,"text":"魚叉飛彈 魚叉飛彈2020年以前已戰備急需 它是插隊立案的原來預計2023年可以陸續抵台服役 2025年全案完成2025年 現在已經2026年 可是原來的預算677億它突然增加189億變成866億 在那時候"},{"start":348.942,"end":369.176,"text":"交運的期程也從2025年延到2029年就是說原來他交付的期程本來5年變成10年所以如果他在第9年交你們會對外說他提早一年交可是如果按照我們原來的期程他是慢了4年交這是第一個第二個次增飛彈106年到114年本來我們編了133億餘元要買500枚到114年"},{"start":377.904,"end":385.971,"text":"我們又增購了1985枚大概本來應該到期的最後一年我們又增購了1985枚"},{"start":388.697,"end":390.319,"text":"他的金額增加到690億從133億增加到690億總計2485枚他的期程也因為增購所以從106年變成到120年那我想請教的是114年的500枚他全來了嗎這是第二個"},{"start":408.041,"end":410.982,"text":"第三個愛國者飛彈他在96年開始執行I2升級還有I3新構的相關的計畫在107年的時候他本來96年到110年要結案可是我們在109年"},{"start":425.066,"end":431.709,"text":"也是到期的前一年 我們又修改建案的文件又增購愛山增城旦 全案延長到116年我現在舉的是幾個比較大項的 這些延長的案子就是你們現在說它沒有延宕 因為你改了時間啊今天如果我們一般人 你們很喜歡講預售屋 今天如果預售屋要交給你了"},{"start":449.677,"end":467.776,"text":"結果要叫的時候你還有很多的問題你的水電還沒通然後你就是沒有辦法住你跟我說房子都已經蓋好了那是不對的因為你就是不能住所以當你把騎乘往後延的時候你不能告訴大家說那是假消息或者說其實他是按照騎乘在交付的那是錯的"},{"start":469.398,"end":486.452,"text":"這還是對美軍夠喔 它還是有專案辦公室我們相信有很多主客觀的條件因素它會影響這些可是包括國內的 我們延宕的也非常多包括我們的潛艦 包括現在有消息披露我們的永英號包括我們的彈藥產線 連彈藥產線都延宕然後我們買火藥也延宕"},{"start":495.7,"end":498.142,"text":"你現在買不到你就沒有辦法製造這些彈藥所以像這些問題它在在都會顯現我們戰力會發生非常嚴重的一個缺口而不是我們對預算不支持從過去到現在軍購預算更沒有不支持的狀況"},{"start":513.713,"end":537.693,"text":"發生所以這個部分我們請國防部在說明的時候要很務實的去面對今天大家只是希望我們在有限的國防預算底下你一次編了八年我們不知道你要買什麼啊你如果當時因為我們看到你們現在秀出來的資料你們在去年十月八月甚至更早之前你們已經知道美國已經有同意哪些可是你們卻不願意做"},{"start":539.554,"end":542.997,"text":"多做說明過去我們在國防外交委員會已經很長的時間只要美國或者我們提出需求的通常會做相關的報告而不是什麼都機密機密不是拿來用來搪塞的所以然後還可以讓立法委員很容易就入罪稍微拿出去然後就馬上告他洩密我們都深受其害所以當你有很"},{"start":565.154,"end":569.938,"text":"很確切的像這樣資訊的時候你就必須應該要告訴大家我們現在買的全部都是增購的我剛剛講的次增你們一直在說發酵說我們現在給的這樣金額你不夠我剛剛講次增本來只有130幾億當你要增購的時候馬上變成690億那是倍數增加然後數量也非常多他有碰到困難嗎沒有這個也是軍購"},{"start":590.296,"end":593.26,"text":"所以我們現在要的軍購包括海馬士包括其他的你說自走炮也好或者其他的彈藥我們現在都在軍購的程序當中或者剛剛結案所以他不會碰到任何困難如果有困難今天本席在這裡我是這個會期的召委"},{"start":607.797,"end":619.583,"text":"另外一位召委陳委員也在如果美方有同意軍售的部分其實我們可以立即安排來做這樣的審查不會延遲我相信在場的所有國防部的相關的官員你們經歷過這麼多剛剛部長也有提到我們軍事採購不是第一次所以不會有你們提到的這些相關的問題我剛剛講的這些你們發駕駛的不斷的在修不斷的在修只要他啟程"},{"start":635.31,"end":643.698,"text":"改了或者金額改了你們發酵說是可以修的啊所以不要讓國人有錯誤的印象這是我們特別要提出來的就這些部分"},{"start":644.622,"end":668.229,"text":"部分因為時間的關係我們沒有辦法好好的去討論很多可是就商售的部分因為要買無人機也要買無人艇部長上一次如果有機會我們希望部長還有相關的重要的決策高層可以一起去看看我們過去買的無人機到底是什麼樣子包括像我們的中科院"},{"start":669.19,"end":670.111,"text":"從過去 其實它在20年前就開始有科研的發展"},{"start":676.175,"end":680.377,"text":"包括我們的尖冰、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞淵、騰雲、劍翔、巡飛彈等等我們科研的經費至少百億以上委託它生產的到目前使用的無人機可能花費也高達國防預算八百億以上可是我們看不到你們這一次編列的二十萬價的預算全部都要買商用的無人機過去花在中科院上面都用到哪裡去了"},{"start":701.488,"end":719.215,"text":"那時候來跟我們報告的時候都說我們的成果非常好結果現在全部都要買那個上一次上個會期我們剛去考察的時候我們看到無人機剛買的用我們中科院的反無人機系統鎖定以後三秒沒有誇張我們買那麼貴一架買六十幾萬八十幾萬我問在場的官員他們說"},{"start":730.339,"end":743.889,"text":"因為它有抗干擾的能力所以我們買了那麼貴可是它被鎖定以後不到三秒馬上失去自主飛行的能力而且如果沒有把那個移開它可能馬上掉下來所以我們看到我們買到的是什麼樣的無人機如果這些你可以運用在戰場上我們覺得對我們國家是國安是造成非常大的風險"},{"start":753.175,"end":779.89,"text":"如果就這些部分我們還有時間一一來探討可是我們今天就整個我們特別條例的部分提出來我們還是希望大家可以客觀的去分析沒有人擋過應該運用的國防預算所以不要把那些責任或者你們沒有做到的全部都歸咎給在野黨的相關的委員今天如果你做得好大家沒有理由不支持可是我們的責任是必須要監督我剛剛說的那些您到現在都還沒有做好"},{"start":782.831,"end":789.754,"text":"而且有一些還不能用所以我們去年買的反無人機系統還沒有測試通過那你們還要編好幾千億去買你在任期預算也有編錢啊內政部的任期預算也有編錢啊我們的公務預算也有編錢啊都要買無人機我們還有時間來討論就這個部分是不是部長要一個簡單的說明"},{"start":808.067,"end":820.764,"text":"我想第一個就是說,我們就公務預算的限制及編列特別預算的必要性,今天在我們的報告的第九頁以下有做一個說明那剛剛委員提到的就是,應該是九千多億吧"},{"start":822.586,"end":841.119,"text":"那事實上就含了我們預估的這個特別預算的部分所以就我想很多細節的部分今天我想剛剛委員花了很多時間做了很多的部分我想我們有機會再跟委員說明我們很希望就這個部分我們很有限的"},{"start":842.54,"end":869.259,"text":"國防預算我們應該用在什麼地方應該怎麼樣讓國家更安全應該怎麼樣讓我們所有的國軍弟兄可以更安全這是我們主要的一個目的一個目標所以我們希望朝向這樣來做一個理性的討論而不是用對外放話或者去做其他的說明的時候有扭曲的現象因為我們覺得那是不能接受的所以如果像這樣我們有很多的案例我們希望他是可以好好一步一步務實的面對"},{"start":870.7,"end":884.415,"text":"今天如果說我們有做不夠好的我覺得那個都可以去理解我們也願意去接受可是不要想要企圖掩蓋然後把責任都推給其他的在野黨這樣子可能就不太好好不好我們希望可以務實啦 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a354e08850d6a824f3e8ac6646e11c8ec29cbc3a6108f1e636eb0d0d8684cdce65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"12:44:18 - 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我們有請顧部長請顧部長黃委員好"},{"start":12.062,"end":35.77,"text":"部長好 部長在討論軍購條約之前本席有一個議題想要跟部長來反映剛好早上王定宇委員也提到就是關於八軍團搖搖拐驢這個彈殼大量八千多顆不見的這個情況本席記得以前我在當兵的時候我們光是打法少一顆彈殼 全年就要留下來在那邊燒炒"},{"start":38.691,"end":63.297,"text":"那8000顆不是一個少數目啦我相信這應該是內部管理的問題啦不過我們確實要去檢討說這樣的一個制度經過20幾年的他還是不是有檢討的必要那對於這些東西我想部裡面這邊也要來來想一下怎麼樣不要來讓部隊裡面增加的工作量然後同時也解決一些弊端的發現那接下來開始部長你擔任國防部長以來整個國際的情勢變化非常大"},{"start":63.797,"end":81.142,"text":"那甚至我們整個戰爭的型態也改變了很多那過去我們購買的反飛彈的這個系統像愛國者啊天弓啊這些飛彈的防禦系統也花費巨資那我們也新建了這個63雷達戰用來防衛中國這個導彈那這些武器確實有效的防衛中國的地對地導彈跟戰機但是我們從俄烏戰爭還有近期這個梅以伊戰爭我們發現到這些昂貴的系統沒有辦法有效的防衛無人機"},{"start":93.726,"end":117.812,"text":"那以這一次這個美伊戰爭為例這跟我們樂山雷達相同這個卡達長城預警雷達就遭到伊朗用大量的這個攻擊無人機再配合飛彈導彈飛彈來進行這飽和式的攻擊那甚至號稱全球最先進的薩德飛彈防禦系統也因為沒有辦法防禦有這無人機的攻擊而受損那美軍為了要避免這個高單價的這個"},{"start":119.652,"end":135.194,"text":"武器被廉價的無人機消耗如今他們也在戰場上大量使用低成本的無人機來降低自己武器的消耗成本那顯然現在的戰爭形態已經從高昂的武器轉變成低成本的消耗戰"},{"start":136.235,"end":151.856,"text":"那過去我國建構的飛彈防禦系統確實保衛了中華民國但是當我們整個國際整個戰爭的形態改變的時候尤其我們要面對的是全世界無人機應用最大的中國的時候我們採購規劃的武器能不能夠防衛"},{"start":153.479,"end":179.533,"text":"國家的安全就非常的重要因此本席有幾個問題想要來跟部長請教那第一個從我們俄武戰爭 美戰爭來看那對付無人機就是要用低成本的方式那國防部今天在報告也一直強調說會購買各類型無人機的反制系統以防禦小型無人機飽和攻擊威脅可是你沒有說要用怎樣的規格的系統只是用很籠統的文字就要求說立法院要通過這個特別預算"},{"start":180.293,"end":198.751,"text":"我的認知裡面它防禦的方式有分硬體跟軟體那你有低中高空的這個方式那這些東西其實都沒有講到各位部長對於我裹這無人機的防禦系統國防部的初步規劃是什麼那面對大型中型小型的自殺無人機我們的規劃的預警跟防禦系統又是什麼"},{"start":200.33,"end":227.31,"text":"委員這個問題是蠻好的就是說我們要反制無人機我們要結合硬砂跟軟砂嘛那所以我們現在因為是屬於條例的部分那麼整個具體的這個建案的部分我們會在預算的時候會提出來有一些是我們現在已經可以做一些說明那有一些還不能夠做對外作為公開說明那我們這個部分包括不管是這個"},{"start":228.832,"end":232.8,"text":"低成本的或者是我們用對外的一個"},{"start":234.731,"end":255.401,"text":"採購的方式 不管是低成本我們研發的部分 或者是對外採購的部分我們現在都是屬於我們要努力建構的一個方向感謝寶定 時間關我先問完了 再回答第二個問題就是武器 我們需要人力來操作尤其購買20萬台無人機 需要操作跟養護的人員就非常的大我們國軍現在無人機的訓練機構有分為陸海空還有海軍陸戰隊的訓練中心"},{"start":260.583,"end":282.98,"text":"目前我們的操作人員是否足夠應對這20萬台無人機的操作如果不足我們國防部預計規劃什麼時候要補足人力另外平時大家各自訓練都沒問題但是如果暫時要支援的時候我們要怎麼樣協同作戰那國防部現在是不是已經規劃讓各種軍種的無人機操作員進行協同作戰那我接下來再繼續問第三個就是說"},{"start":284.12,"end":312.929,"text":"我國的這些重要的武器很多都是向美國來採購那過去也發生過因為疫情的關係整個供應鏈中斷還有產能吃緊被迫延遲交貨那像我們2019年的這個採購的66架F16V的這個戰機一直到今年的3月16號才完成第一架的飛行測驗的這個驗證那嚴重影響我們我國的這個軍力的整備3月22號也有媒體說今年會啟動反國那本席就要問說那今年"},{"start":313.709,"end":336.939,"text":"什麼時候我們F-16會飛回來台灣那其他沒有交付的武器系統美國什麼時候會交付那接著我會再繼續提到了F-16我就要提到我這個重要的軍事設施絕對是敵方首要攻擊的對象那保存戰力就變得非常的重要那像F-16未來會到我們的治安基地"},{"start":337.719,"end":352.506,"text":"那我們也看到說了解國防部現在規劃在治安基地要興建24座新型的這個抗炸的機堡請問目前完成有多少那其他的軍用機場是不是有比照要來興建這樣的防禦的這個機堡那我們"},{"start":353.726,"end":374.689,"text":"第五個問題就是之前我們有媒體有報導說是針對外島前線反制無人機的需求政府投入將近10億元的這個採購26套的這個系統由民間的某一個廠商得標但傳出產品未通過驗收軍方要求改善缺點後再行驗收那這個部分改善是不是已經完成這五個部分"},{"start":376.187,"end":401.421,"text":"請部長簡單的回答就好簡單就好委員問的問題相當多我是不是先請卓技師先就聯合作戰委員好我是卓技師長首先感謝委員剛剛所提的這幾個問題正好是我們上禮拜也有做過整體的台灣之盾的提報那同委員所說的我們分作高中低的三層的分層防禦有效的攔截另外也針對"},{"start":402.762,"end":415.316,"text":"敵人的威脅就是他用各種形式對我們台灣本島的防衛來進行攻擊的時候當然對於高精密的這些遠程的火力我們會用精準的這個防衛的系統來進行防衛"},{"start":417.478,"end":436.87,"text":"對他低價低成本利用無人機等等來對我們進行我們會在各作戰階段當中規劃各種主動被動軟殺硬殺的防護系統來去使我們的部隊還有我們的關鍵基礎設施具有暫時的韌性那就這個作戰應用部分向委員做報告"},{"start":437.27,"end":455.448,"text":"好 謝謝因為時間的關係我再問這個就是那這個我剛才提到第四點就是這個基堡的部分這個部分是今年要開始規劃在智商暨地堡的因為智商暨在我們台東所以我想要了解這個部分報告委員因為在東部的部分花蓮台東我們一直都有您也知道我們一直都有這個"},{"start":457.31,"end":484.002,"text":"比較大型的這個地下的算是地下化的這個設施那在各基地也包含台東我們也都有規劃您剛剛提到這個抗2000磅炸彈的這個機庫那24座目前正在進行那另外在其他基地也有相同的工程目前正在進行中我印象中這個機堡都已經很久了我們花那麼多錢買這麼先進的武器結果最後不是被飛彈打掉是被自己的機堡砸壞掉"},{"start":485.662,"end":500.772,"text":"這個是抗2000磅的炸彈抗2000磅炸彈的擊鼓那部裡面是不是有安排時間也能夠去台東來看一下了解哪些設施需要改善有其他基地正在進行類似的建案那如果有需要的話我們可以一併安排"},{"start":501.272,"end":505.175,"text":"提醒國防部採購武器一定要符合台灣的作戰需求,特別是作戰形態改變。以我國現在的經濟情況來看,我們一定要建構一套適合我們國防發展的系統。"},{"start":522.125,"end":537.534,"text":"那這個也就是國民黨為什麼強調就是每一項武器的採購必須依照台海作戰的需求來做採購那更要準時的交付啦那完成我們整個建案的程序這就是為了避免我買到不合適的武器那因為這不單單是"},{"start":540.519,"end":557.448,"text":"錢花了還影響到國家的安全那以上這就是本席這次的質詢那也請部長把本席今天提到的問題那在一個一周內那由書面報告來跟本席這邊來回報我們再請我們在會後再請到委員辦公室特別做個說明好不好感謝 感謝 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顧部長有請請顧部長"},{"start":12.706,"end":32.28,"text":"是 林委員部長辛苦了這個話說從頭本期在去年的12月跟今年的2月分別自費都做了民意調查就針對這個軍購國防相關的議題要了解台灣民意的真實走向那我簡單跟部長交換一下意見這個民意調查的結果基本上顯示大概都有六成左右的民眾是支持國防預算增加的"},{"start":32.64,"end":53.583,"text":"所以我想這大家在國防預算的合理增加上面其實是有比較高的一個社會的共識但我們今年二月多做的題目就是你支不支持這個院版1.25兆的這樣一個特別預算這樣一個版本那就發現這個不同意的人其實是略大於同意呈現非常非常分歧的一個狀況這個顯見台灣社會對於這1.25兆突然之間跑出來的版本其實還是有蠻有疑慮的"},{"start":54.344,"end":82.289,"text":"那我想我們身為在野黨的立法委員國民黨也好民眾黨也好大概都基於民意反應的一個結果我們要在支持國防預算的合理增加跟但不要一次過頭或者是造成社會質疑的地方其實在兩者之間要取得平衡這就是為什麼到最後在野黨也提了非常多的這個自己版本的國防特別預算條例這個我們應該好好討論這個如何來編列這筆錢這個條例的內容如何來做取捨這我希望在這個禮拜的討論會中大家可以理性的來做討論那我今天要準備這個"},{"start":83.709,"end":103.974,"text":"就叫這個部長的題目大概是這樣子的因為我們對美軍購的部分其實看起來是分階段來做進行也就是說這第一階段比較明確的包含這個M109A7自走炮海馬4這個反甲型無人機飛彈系統等等這個基本上已經拿到了這個發價書那還有所謂的第二波也就是所謂的這個"},{"start":105.954,"end":117.782,"text":"反制無人機系統還有各類型的反彈道和反空的飛彈還有低空防空系統和反甲飛彈的儲量補充這幾項看起來是還沒有拿到相關的發價書這些後面的籌購的這些項目看起來還是在美國的戰爭部的內部討論的階段甚至都還沒有送到美國的國會我想請教一下我們國防部針對你們長期以來應該是一直在保持對話的一個狀態對於這幾筆的金額"},{"start":133.732,"end":154.589,"text":"或者是發架書大概什麼時候會通過美國的國會什麼時候會拿到有沒有時間表官委員先跟委員報告我們我們所謂軍購我們是依照我們的需求提出是沒有所謂分階段的那其實我們在這次特別預算裡面所有的發架書需求信函都是在去年同一個時間提出去的"},{"start":155.43,"end":174.459,"text":"那另外我們針對目前還沒有智慧國會的項目一直在跟美方竊取聯繫那我們所掌握到的他們已經完成了跨部會的聯審那目前也會按照審查的期程在完成相關程序之後進行智慧國會"},{"start":175.459,"end":200.667,"text":"這是目前我們掌握到的訊息這當然是程序大家應該都還蠻清楚的但大家要知道的就是那個時間點的問題因為按照台灣關係法以及等等相關美國國內的法規的規範基本上美國國會在審議的過程中大概不太容易出現異議這過去的案例顯示即便沒有急著排審他也會再送過一個月之後自動取得通過這樣一個資格但是現在的狀況就是還沒有送到國會所以我的問題其實是這樣的"},{"start":202.668,"end":221.438,"text":"有沒有具體的時間表嘛就你當然積極溝通這本席完全理解也非常支持但是你積極溝通的結果然後他還沒有完成聯繫審議那有沒有明確的時間比如說大概幾月幾月的時候他會送進國會幾月的時候我們會正式取得這個發價數因為這其實跟大家版本的整合跟金額調整都是密切相關的嘛所以是不是能在這邊有明確的回答"},{"start":221.918,"end":240.277,"text":"我想這個就要看美方那邊,我們這邊沒有辦法幫美方做回應OK,那我再問一個問題,過去我們的國防特別預算,走特別條例特別預算的,有在沒有拿到美國智慧國會程序還沒完成之前,我們就先編列條例跟預算的前例嗎?"},{"start":244.662,"end":254.066,"text":"那個是特別條例嗎?應該不是吧?那個是正常工預算吧?那是特別條例好,但是顯然在後續的過程中也出現了一些問題跟毛病,對不對?"},{"start":256.4,"end":281.087,"text":"報告委員其實他那個案子還是按照我們目前正常的計畫預算制度跟軍購申請申請審核程序走並沒有什麼不一樣也沒有說先拿到發價書再去做處理OK這點本席願意尊重但我要把問題把它問完就我之所以會花很多時間去討論這個第二波的這個發價書的問題原因是這樣的就過去這個恐怕也不符合過去的往例喔路透社在3月13號的報導裡面直接稱這個川普"},{"start":283.908,"end":307.586,"text":"總統說訪中後才會批准所謂的140億美元其實就是我們大家講的這個階段的發價數碼才會批准這所謂的對台軍售這個尚在審核中的軍購項目啊這個通過了時間跟我剛剛問你時間點你說你在努力溝通不見得能夠明確回答這本席了解但既然有外媒做了披露就是說這可能會跟這接下來川喜會掛鉤啊國防部目前評估的狀況怎麼樣會不會跟川喜會掛鉤"},{"start":308.546,"end":323.332,"text":"我想有關這些外媒的評論,我們都予以尊重,我們沒有任何的相關的進一步的評論那麼我們會跟美方持續的溝通,然後希望能夠盡早的來取得相關的完成智慧國會的程序"},{"start":323.692,"end":341.068,"text":"也就是說你們立場不變好 是因為這樣 我之所以會再問這個問題是這樣就我們陸委會的副主委啊 就是沈友中在3月17號的時候接受媒體訪問的時候有講就是說這個政府在研判川習會的時候大概一定會談到跟對台軍購有關的也就是說我們政府內部的評估啊很有可能這個題目會在川習會上變成一個談判的這樣議題"},{"start":343.83,"end":353.937,"text":"這個軍售到底順不順利很有可能取決於啊川普的個人意志跟態度這我們都推過這個美國的決策模型這當然是很有可能的那這樣子你們當初在內部討論的時候說研判這個題目可能會被拿到川習會的時候這個理論上應該是一個我們內部政府在做沙盤推演的內部會議啊這場內部會議我們的陸委會推估會被拿到談判期間這場內部的溝通會議的時候國防部有沒有參加"},{"start":367.774,"end":377.266,"text":"我想我們就國安部的立場我們跟美方的相關的包括戰爭部跟國務院我們都是在進行這個有關"},{"start":378.669,"end":404.759,"text":"整個建案程序的一個溝通那麼美光我們會提出來但是美方有一個初步的供受意願那我們根據這個美方的初步供受意願來編列相關的預算那這一次納入特別預算的項目也是經過跟美方溝通的美方當然對我們講他有意願然後他往前推進這都沒有錯的這本席無一質疑台美關係但問題是客觀擺在前面的問題就是這個川崎會形成了一個很大的變數因為除了四月然後他現在因為中東的戰爭往後推遲"},{"start":407.24,"end":433.597,"text":"這陸委會在那場的訪問裡面他在透露啊還有可能有三場川習會對不對有APEC G20的啊甚至有可能川普的回訪等等這些會不會都會造成軍購啊實際上的變數我們就跟我們相關的對口單位來看的話他們的工作的意願並沒有改變工作意願並沒有改變沒有 沒有改變那照理來講應該就會很順利的理論上應該在四月的時候就可以通過國會的審議是這樣嗎"},{"start":435.081,"end":450.808,"text":"我們當然很期待這個美胖能夠儘速完成他們內部的審查程序然後進行智慧國會部長今天的回答都非常的小心而且視頻把本集完全尊重也願意理解但是有質詢的過程就是把一些疑慮攤在陽光下讓大家去理解今天"},{"start":451.388,"end":468.779,"text":"在黨的版本的數字非常的保守然後一度上在很多的政治攻防這我們就暗下不表但是我必須要講的事情是很多時候它有在這個過程中如果出現很大的變數的時候你先把預算框在那個地方或先把條例框在那個地方到最後萬一真的這些變數成真了然後造成軍購狀況的受挫"},{"start":469.94,"end":497.805,"text":"他很有可能會變相的造成財政的部分的排擠這是在野黨我覺得要表達出來一些立場因此我們也再次在這個地方強調在野黨雖然一開始的速度比較低但是我們也都有對外有做明確的政治承諾跟宣示嘛如果這個美方的發價順序這個發價程序可以順利來做執行當然在項目上跟金額上當然有可以討論的空間但前提是要能順利執行這就是為什麼本席今天在這邊問一定是問川習慧會不會造成變數有沒有具體時間表的原因嘛"},{"start":501.328,"end":516.584,"text":"在同一個條例裡面提出一個預算的上限不代表我們就能夠通過相關的預算因為具體的預算還要經過大院的審議所以條例跟預算是分開來看的不是說條例通過了我們好像預算就不要送到立法院來審議"},{"start":518.085,"end":540.84,"text":"實務上來講大家基本上在條例的過程中因為討論的是最大的框架跟大的範圍所以我想通過之後實務上來講這些特別預算在預算審查的時候大家都是老江湖的也知道並比較不會有這麼多的一些爭議所以當然框線的部分很有可能它到未來它很有可能就是被吃用的這一點大家當然各有各的說法這本集願意理解預算的具體項目還是要送立法院來審議當然當然當然"},{"start":542.361,"end":559.726,"text":"但實務上來講大家也會傾向比較相信的這樣一個態度因為現在貴黨提出來是說發價書拿到再有一個特別條例不是說在這個特別條例裡面框一個金額然後等到拿到所以如果真的你可以依實現裡面取得去發價書我們不會去為難對美軍購的預算嘛其實態度上就是這樣嘛所以我覺得今天這樣子嘛"},{"start":560.606,"end":561.587,"text":"我還是說明就是說條例是"},{"start":582.653,"end":610.035,"text":"一塊 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各位 開宗明義我想過去這段時間看到不管是行政部門看到民進黨的委員真的對於我們一位陸配級的委員持續這樣子用不管是言語或是消極不配合的一個霸凌的一個手段其實全台灣的陸配大家也都看在眼裡我今天就事論事就法論法"},{"start":39.119,"end":52.181,"text":"能夠讓我們中華民國法令持續的往前走這才是應該要做的事情但如果說民進黨政府一味的用政治意識形態來操作像今天內政委員會我們上台"},{"start":52.714,"end":76.239,"text":"我們開會到現在也有一些紛擾但還是一樣 主委你站上備詢台就應該要尊重立法委員的質詢的權益所以我先開宗明義想請教我們到底現在台灣我們現在有多少陸配取得中華民國身份證取得我們定居的身份有14萬5千多人"},{"start":77.019,"end":87.569,"text":"14萬5千多位陸配是有中華民國身份證是不是那其中有14萬多人那有哪一位可以放棄中國國籍的陸配"},{"start":90.598,"end":109.324,"text":"我們這些取得我們定居跟身份證的都是放棄中國大陸戶籍這個國籍的部分我們還是在了解你之前就已經受訪過啦你坦承無人能夠完成放棄中國籍啊不是嗎所以現在我只想要確認一下這個標題是不是正確"},{"start":112.925,"end":131.011,"text":"就我們陸委會或是海基會的工作我們兩岸條例就只有處理戶籍的問題沒有處理國籍的問題對於陸配最了解的就是陸委會嘛是嘛那我只是想問是說你以前就已經受訪過就是說無人能夠完成放棄中國籍"},{"start":132.572,"end":149.348,"text":"那現在這個數字有沒有變化有沒有人因為說我們陸委會或說最近在紛紛擾擾然後讓陸配能夠去放棄中國籍有沒有跟委員報告放棄中國籍我覺得依照中國大陸國籍法的程序一句話"},{"start":150.529,"end":170.162,"text":"我們手上是沒有放棄成功的例子但是我們覺得陸培應該要努力去放棄如果他要參選公職再來沒關係你已經回答了再來陸委會有講說世界各國有一些國家憲法是不准國民放棄國旗譬如說墨西哥阿根廷等等但是我們"},{"start":172.58,"end":198.945,"text":"在相關中華民國法令裡面我們有兩岸人民關係條例陸配可以參政最主要是為什麼是因為兩岸人民關係條例是我們規範的我想請教一下阿根廷墨西哥等這些國家他們有特殊的條例嗎在我們國家我們有沒有說在阿根廷啦墨西哥啦你們舉的例子有沒有什麼條例是可以讓他們說沒有辦法放棄國籍但他們可以有參政權"},{"start":200.446,"end":212.096,"text":"跟委員報告您指的這些不能放棄國家的國民如果規劃成為中華民國的國民的話他們能不能參政?他們本來就不能參政他們也不能參政嘛那為什麼陸配可以參政?"},{"start":215.859,"end":242.274,"text":"陸配有兩岸人民關係條例來給予也是立法院三讀通過的法例我們陸配參政的這個條文在兩岸關係條例是第21條簡單講他要住滿10年他要住滿10年 完整的身份轉換住滿10年剛剛我們的召委已經有質詢你你也沒有辦法有一些溯及既往部分你也沒有辦法回答"},{"start":242.714,"end":269.654,"text":"好 那我再請教所以現在陸委會今天李貞秀委員她站上這個諮詢台她有中選會頒發的當選證書她在我們我國的大法官見證下宣誓就職那現在到底你們陸委會的認定李貞秀委員有沒有符合有沒有擁有我們中華民國的立法委員的資格跟委員報告"},{"start":271.775,"end":280.506,"text":"我們立委會當然我們尊重不是尊重啊我現在是要問你說你們認定我知道李征秀委員有沒有中華民國委員的資格"},{"start":282.726,"end":303.747,"text":"呃 沒有沒有至少我認為我現在就是依照兩岸條例他沒有參選的資格他有參選資格你認為是說他沒有中華民國立法委員的資格來他沒有參選資格這一間這一間辦公室這一間委員會叫內政委員會我覺得如果說這樣的話民進黨政府要不要先打一架內部先溝通一下"},{"start":304.708,"end":328.601,"text":"陸委會 我剛剛已經問了 主委講是說李貞秀委員他目前陸委會認定我們主委認定他沒有中華民國立法委員的資格可是中選會已經給他當選證書中選會也讓大法官來宣誓就職所以陸委會要不要出句公文給中選會要中選會取消他的資格黃委員我們是就法論法就是就法論法啊所以我才想要問你們我們就是說他不符合兩岸條例的參選資格"},{"start":333.163,"end":349.344,"text":"主委心平氣和我現在只是想講是說那這樣子入委會既然入委會已經認定是說他沒有這個資格中選會把他認定那這樣就是入委會跟中選會兩個互相的打架囉跟委員報告齁就在李貞秀女士啊她"},{"start":350.245,"end":359.15,"text":"所以什麼時候我們中選會我們陸委會要發出相關的公文陸委會什麼時候會發出相關的公文給中選會跟中選會講是說我們李貞秀委員她沒有中華民國立法委員的資格"},{"start":372.592,"end":392.82,"text":"他違反兩岸條例21條我們有去跟中選會我親自也去拜訪中選會當然我們也有給他們公文那新任的主委上任後我想我們也需要具備相關的這些事實證據提供給中選會很實在話講啦大家真的都在看"},{"start":394.414,"end":413.414,"text":"本席身為中華民國立法委員之一113席每一位都是民意代表我們面對的行政部門我們希望的是行政部門開大門走大路我們希望是行政部門依法行政我們希望是行政部門可以真真正正的了解主流民意"},{"start":414.275,"end":437.89,"text":"但是過去到現在我們看到民進黨政府依法三讀通過的法令不執行恣意的解釋法令還有到現在陸委會應該是站在兩岸人民關係條例因為陸委會存在一個很重要的位階就是因為兩岸人民關係條例才有陸委會的存在如果說都沒有辦法捍衛台灣跟中國大陸兩邊的關係"},{"start":440.407,"end":468.246,"text":"我覺得中華民國我們相對來講未來的憲政體制會越走越窄這一點是我給主委的一個忠告我們私下有很多場合有些時候都會碰到面但我必須要講的是站在這個主委的位置上面就應該要從一而終這才是真真正正為中華民國全體國人服務謝謝洪委員我們就是依法行政我們就匡正違法謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8ada7dd93320840c8478568ba5efa48cb629cbc3a6108f1e63563cb0ca640d278f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:52:40 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這個上禮拜五我們立法院的院會其實有一個議題我也有上新聞啦就是有很多的委員在院會喊台灣中國一邊一國那我不是問您說您的立場怎麼樣您的立場 您的個人主觀意志沒關係我要問的是說因為剛剛有委員問主委說現在兩岸關係是什麼關係您就說兩岸是兩岸關係嘛那既然是兩岸關係那如果說立法院有委員想要推動台灣中國一邊一國的話"},{"start":48.476,"end":66.271,"text":"那我們的憲政的架構或者是我們的中華民國法律要怎麼樣子的去調整我覺得您可以給一些意見給您可以提一些意見給這些倡議台灣中國一邊一國的立委因為他們其實是有權利來做這樣的修法那在這樣子的憲政法律架構下是要怎麼調整這樣子"},{"start":68.171,"end":94.233,"text":"我想我們立委要推動各種立法我們從民主政治原則基本上都給予尊重但是因為兩岸的問題複雜敏感微妙而關鍵那我們作為這個在亞太地區一個維持穩定和平繁榮的這個角色我們向來"},{"start":96.135,"end":111.268,"text":"推動各種重大的法案除了我們內部要有國人堅定的支持要朝野有共識那也要符合國際社會的期待單純請教在我們的憲政法律的架構下"},{"start":111.969,"end":130.354,"text":"要怎麼做要怎麼修法才能夠真的如同他們所倡議的去推動我想說您可以給這些委員一些意見而不是說或許有些人嘴巴講講不知道怎麼去推動那我們可以讓他們支援跟我們的做可以有一致的一個做法這樣子您可以給一些指導不敢"},{"start":131.054,"end":153.954,"text":"我覺得我們是一個主權國家,我們都依照法定程序來推動當然我們是一個民主的社會,這個朝野要有共識,這是最重要的我會說如果委員想推的話,假設我現在想推,或某個委員想推那我們大概是按哪一個憲法的條文,或法律的條文需要去做修正呢?"},{"start":155.595,"end":181.368,"text":"我想您剛剛所說的那個當然會噴出到憲法的修正是 還有哪一條什麼樣的文字需要去做修正呢可以給委員一些意見嗎我們以後也可以給他建議啊如果有涉及到兩條列修正我們陸委會職責所在一定會提供很多相關的資訊沒有問題所以就是 沒關係你可能好像不太方便給立法院一些指導嘛"},{"start":182.188,"end":208.383,"text":"那如果說有委員提的話你們再提一些意見是不是是是好那沒關係沒關係那看來你好像不太願意回答這個問題啦好那這個回到現在很這個非常熱的話題嘛那當然就是李政秀委員的議題啦那我不是問您的立場怎麼樣我在問說我們陸配在去年的時候普遍就是因為單一戶籍的問題那去年我們陸委會也非常的積極在協助這些陸配去讓他們補辦嘛"},{"start":211.184,"end":238.021,"text":"那我問一下如果這些陸配因為我們要行使中華民國國民的權利的時候要拿到身份證行使享受權利跟義務的時候就必須要放棄戶籍嘛但是很多陸配他是在2025年他才放棄戶籍的對不對在去年我們輔導了非常多那如果這些陸配在2025年之前行使的權利這部分我們陸委會是怎麼做認定的呢是"},{"start":242.219,"end":266.729,"text":"基本上我們就尊重已經發生的事實不過我倒是可以跟委員報告我們為什麼會有這個政策因為我們的疫情比較長 長達三年我們結婚的陸配 我們一年還有五千位那他們呢 沒辦法去中國大陸放棄他戶籍那麼把註銷戶籍證明拿回來"},{"start":268.01,"end":281.781,"text":"因為那時候疫情我們不可能說中國大陸疫情那麼嚴重我們很不人道的說不行你一定要三個月追所以主委的意思是已經發生過的事情就發生了我們也不會去追究那李貞秀委員的問題他已經就職了我們當初為什麼會有這個專案"},{"start":287.225,"end":311.231,"text":"是從那個要解決我們疫情期間沒辦法去補辦不只疫情期間嘛很多陸配都是十多年二十多年嘛對不對那他們過去所行使的一些權利或者義務都已經可能已經塵埃落定了甚至我舉個例投票好了票也投啦那過去那些票難度你要收回來嗎我想應該也不太可能這樣子去主張嘛"},{"start":312.111,"end":330.551,"text":"那同樣除非法院有做相關的一個判決那才可能去推翻過去的一些行政的程序的一個完備我們可能需要透過法院那一樣的我們李政秀委員就職了那您說不溯及既往那為什麼就單單就李政秀委員這個案子我們認為說應該要溯及既往"},{"start":335.055,"end":362.694,"text":"我們沒有涉及紀委 它是因為法律明定在那一邊至於委員說這涉及很多人啊 他們投票行為怎麼樣啊因為這個都不法分割我們在釋法性當初要發動這個專案讓大家有機會來維持它在法律上的合法地位一方面是我們常常說要給陸配一個安居樂業的我們都要補救嘛 我知道你們都要補救嘛"},{"start":363.674,"end":382.344,"text":"對 但是我們針對這個法律問題我們也有而是我們認為這是我們要去面對 要去解決我們做了一個補救的一個措施過去很多行政機關已經做了行政處分原則上我們就既往不咎嘛 對不對"},{"start":383.723,"end":400.896,"text":"是這樣的概念嘛對不對剛剛主委您講的既往不咎那就是行政處分已經生效的話那我們既往不咎那李貞秀委員她也已經完成了就職的行政程序啊那為什麼我們不是因為我們自己對法院那個法定的理解而去"},{"start":401.556,"end":426.414,"text":"用自己的意識去推翻這一個行政程序我了解委員的意思但是我們兩岸條例因為非常清楚的規定這個第九條之一你如果擁有中國大陸的戶籍那你就會喪失我們台灣的戶籍還有因為這個戶籍所衍生的權利那李貞秀女士她就是沒有遇到兩岸條例的狀態參選資格或就職的問題我今天舉一個實際的例子好了"},{"start":430.017,"end":444.85,"text":"一個里長過去有發生一些新聞里長比較可能發生同票同票的情況最後抽籤嘛可能最後差一兩票也有可能這樣子的情形那最後如果我們發現說有一個陸配他其實當初是沒有這樣子的一個投票資格的時候"},{"start":446.667,"end":470.982,"text":"那現在我們要去追究嗎有 委員跟您報告如果我們的陸配因為從我們剛剛講的法律如果他的身份沒有放棄中國大陸戶籍有人說他有雙重身份我們移民署就把他台灣人的身份對 那是一個行政曲線啊對不對 我跟你說已經發生了他已經去投票了"},{"start":472.123,"end":491.078,"text":"或者是說中選會已經發投票通知書給他的突然這個選務人員說我知道你有雙同戶籍你不能投票怎麼讓他投嗎因為這個部分真的沒辦法切割你也不知道要投給誰你無法去追溯所以這個在過去的法律上法律的判決上都有這個所以追溯就會有這個問題"},{"start":492.779,"end":511.769,"text":"追溯會有過去你剛剛講無法切割的問題那有去推翻過去行政處分的一個問題那一樣的李貞孝委員他也有一個推翻行政處分的一個問題在我們可不可以憑自己的對法令的理解去推翻行政處分好不好我知道這邊沒有辦法達成共識但是我覺得中華民國"},{"start":512.569,"end":538.436,"text":"立法行政就職的程序已經完備了那如果他不是立法委員的話就必須要有一個解職的程序來完成他才不是立法委員我覺得委員說他有沒有信賴保護啊就我們這個例子李森修的例子沒有信賴保護的問題我們有做了很多法律的研究沒關係就千千總的記仰不就這一個會救沒有因為只有他參選立委而已謝謝主委"}]}},{"id":"167792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167792","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8abbce463a9f379a9d78568ba5efa48cb629cbc3a6108f1e63563cb0ca640d278f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"11:43:08 - 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主委好主委根據我們最新我們台灣國人的民調在去年的年中針對我們的兩岸關係的僵局就是採取持續對抗的方式我們有高達六成三的民眾強烈表達不滿那今年我們最新的這個民調顯示超高達五成的民眾擔心兩岸內在五年內會開戰"},{"start":47.859,"end":61.075,"text":"所以我們可以看到從愛新澤政府上台上任以來兩岸的關係持續緊繃我們很擔心現在的民進黨政府就是用對抗來取代對話尤其這個"},{"start":62.957,"end":86.603,"text":"陸委會最近接受媒體訪問的時候說兩岸交流的核心是要去風險跟去政治化然後也是希望說繼續積極來溝通對話努力朝下避免衝突的方向來前進那我想要請教主委您的看法兩岸的部分就您的看法有沒有辦法降低對抗以及降低兩岸發生衝突戰爭的風險"},{"start":89.149,"end":115.328,"text":"謝謝張委員的那個槌尋我想你剛剛講的時候我們的政策我們就是維持現狀不卑不亢維持現狀那我們也希望兩岸能夠在對等尊嚴進行健康有序的交流那我們希望中國大陸要放棄敵意思維要放棄一些負面的作為特別是對台灣複合性的施壓"},{"start":116.169,"end":133.768,"text":"今天中國大陸他對於我們複合性的施壓不管是軍機建擾台外交打壓經濟脅迫社會滲透一連串的法律戰像跨境鎮壓還有這個鋪天蓋地的這些認知作戰"},{"start":134.509,"end":162.125,"text":"還有灰色地帶侵擾可以說是對台步步進逼極限施壓這才是兩岸關係緊張台海風險的根源那我們不斷的呼籲中國大陸他這麼做其實對他的國際形象也不好那現在各國都開始圍堵中國開始對於地緣風險提升很高大家都在安全方面注入了很多資源各種關係"},{"start":164.668,"end":173.34,"text":"那雖然如此我們的政策還是跟委員所說的一致沒有改變我們還是要去風險化還是要盡全力維護"},{"start":175.302,"end":193.541,"text":"台海的和平穩定的現狀這是我們的目標好 謝謝主委主委剛剛提了很多可是沒有聽到我們陸委會的具體作為我們還是希望說陸委會有具體的作為那剛剛主委特別講到交流那交流有一個非常大的重點就是我們大家現在在兩岸的觀光"},{"start":194.582,"end":220.834,"text":"那我先跟主委報告一個數字在113年的時候台灣附中的人數是277萬人114年的時候成長50萬人到323萬人那大陸來臺人數也有稍微一點點的增加那我們現在都還是知道說現在我們陸委會我們的旅遊警示對大陸的旅遊警示都是橙色燈號那就讓我覺得很奇怪"},{"start":221.614,"end":235.867,"text":"現在就是民間的我們台灣跟對岸民間的交流很熱烈可是官方的交流這個很冷淡那我想要請教之前去年有請教過主委針對我們台灣針對這個橘色的燈號"},{"start":238.149,"end":252.691,"text":"有沒有可能未來去調整燈號那以及有沒有機會之前講的促成兩小會的對話來對我們兩邊對我們台灣的這個禁團令有沒有今年度有沒有可能來做一個調整"},{"start":254.052,"end":270.345,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛有很多委員在追尋我們最近的很多國人在中國大陸刑方不明或者是被盤查或者是因為受到法律限制而不能有人身"},{"start":271.326,"end":299.745,"text":"自由安全方面的限制不能回到台灣來這些都是風險確實有風險那因為風險蠻高的我們還是要持續用燈號來提示來提醒國人負入要有安全方面的考量那另外我們要回答我們張委員剛剛所追尋的兩岸觀光的部分我們到現在還是一樣還是秉持著我們的最大的善意我們希望針對"},{"start":301.646,"end":327.495,"text":"剛剛所說的人身安全的這些風險我們針對兩岸的旅遊的這個整個安全還有品質還有穩定性公平性我們不要讓業者活在一個惶惶不安他們說斷就斷我們也不要過去的這個兩岸的觀光亂象我們一直主張兩岸的觀光小兩會應該做下來溝通談"},{"start":329.696,"end":345.202,"text":"好 謝謝主委您剛提到有幾個點希望陸委會還是要加油積極針對我們國人赴陸的人身安全我相信每一個國人的人身安全都非常重要可是本席剛剛聽到你跟很多委員的回應我發現這個陸委會還是一樣沒有對策"},{"start":348.203,"end":362.793,"text":"那我認為每一個國人只要在大陸遇到人身安全你可以發布新聞啊讓台灣人知道說有這樣的問題啊可是我平常都沒有看到新聞只有在你們的專案報告裡面才說現在好像非常危險所以這一點我也請主委要來做加強的一個動作"},{"start":365.424,"end":381.968,"text":"我還是必須要說陸委會一年的預算大概十億左右當然我知道我們所有官員大家都非常辛苦可是我最近也得知陸委會的機關人力缺額嚴重就我所得到的資料缺額將近達到兩成"},{"start":384.383,"end":399.387,"text":"那我想要請問主委兩岸的事務非常的複雜那兩岸交流全面遇到停滯所以業務量大幅減少所以是政府刻意要縮減編制啊欲缺不補嗎還是其他政治性的考量請主委回答"},{"start":399.827,"end":414.436,"text":"是跟委員報告我們也了解我們很多部門在補缺額的時候那麼最近缺額是比較多但是我們有其中有一項部分比如說我們港澳"},{"start":415.929,"end":443.348,"text":"這些外館中國大陸基於他們的政治立場我們必須要承諾他一中承諾書才讓我們派過去所以我們港澳很多的缺額都沒辦法補這是一個結構性的限制另外因為我們陸委會的工作真的是比較沉重大家打探了一下我們陸委會的同仁真的是上班的時間長工作壓力也沉重就是要"},{"start":443.948,"end":472.519,"text":"要應處來自於中國大陸的鋪天蓋地這些壓力那我們真的是我們感謝我們陸委會同仁還有海基會的同仁還在堅守崗位來維護我們兩岸關係正常健康有序的交流還有維持台海和平穩定我們仍然在對台商提供各種的服務仍然在落實當中好謝謝主委那我是不是有機會請我們的蘇董事長"},{"start":473.519,"end":474.16,"text":"方便請教一個問題嗎好 麻煩蘇董事長"},{"start":484.502,"end":509.902,"text":"好 董事長實際的關係我本席要這邊感謝你願意承擔來擔任我們海基會的董事長未來對兩岸的關係以及我們台灣兩岸的情勢做了努力巨大的奉獻本席在這邊非常感謝你那這邊我請教一個問題看說如果能方便回應的話就請你回應就是說在你接任此職位的時候就是賴總統有沒有交付你什麼樣的任務"},{"start":511.743,"end":539.64,"text":"就您擔任這個海基會董事長來講您對未來對於大陸的交流您的計畫是如何請你簡單來分享一下 謝謝好 謝謝我覺得賴總統會請我到海基會他給我的任務就是要服務好兩岸的人民跟台商那基本上如果在雙方沒有預設立場"},{"start":541.061,"end":556.633,"text":"我們都樂意進一步跟大陸能夠來做交流但是現在民間的交流還是宗教文化的交流還是蠻密切在進行的好 謝謝董事長"}]}},{"id":"167791","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a436816d99b5c9bc778568ba5efa48cb629cbc3a6108f1e63c0690458ce51f1dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"11:35:05 - 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我想我們包括卓院長的外交突破做了很多保密的工作一方面不要讓我們相對的國家為難 二方面又能夠突破 這意義重大那重點是中國大陸現在還是無所不用其極"},{"start":146.476,"end":170.713,"text":"來外交打壓 外交封鎖我們所以現在外交突破的工作國人都應該要來支持 全力的來支持所以你對國台辦的回應 你有什麼回應我想兩岸關係最主要的障礙就是中共不願意正視中華民國存在的客觀事實"},{"start":172.113,"end":184.759,"text":"他不願意在國際間能夠尊重中華民國做一個國家對外進行交往的權利他說權利在封殺"},{"start":186.405,"end":207.622,"text":"目前他也透過不管雙邊多邊能夠形塑所謂國際一中持續在打壓台灣的生存台灣的國家主權象徵等等確實我們陸委會常常跟外交部說我們面臨的壓力本質都是相同的"},{"start":208.883,"end":236.464,"text":"那我們絕對不棄餒我們繼續來突破好 身為執政黨還有身為覺得如果我們台灣身為台灣人民我覺得我們的行政院長可以踏上日本那在雙方有默契的情況下讓這件事情成行我覺得應該是給予鼓勵很遺憾我們的在野黨全部都在譴責很遺憾我們的在野黨全部都用各種方法的在挑骨頭這我們表示非常遺憾另外"},{"start":237.185,"end":262.749,"text":"我要講一個事實存在的觀點主委你剛講得很清楚李貞秀女士沒有辦法放棄中國國籍的原因沒有辦法放棄中國國籍是誰的原因我想是中國大陸政府阻撓她為什麼中國大陸政府為什麼要這樣我講給你聽中國政府"},{"start":264.305,"end":285.562,"text":"堅持不會讓他放棄國籍的原因其實就是要造成一個事實跟早上民眾黨要合法掩護非法一樣他要造成一個有中國戶籍、中國國籍的人站在立法院的立法委員的講台上他造成這個事實他讓國際看讓國際看,你看"},{"start":289.035,"end":314.787,"text":"這台灣的立法院我們中國人也是成功站上去了那所以我為什麼在擔任召委的時候我會尊重行政院可以不用尋答我想要在國際上也讓國際的友人也讓國際知道台灣是民主法治針對中國想要造成既定事實我們沒有接受來 主委這一個既定事實你接受嗎"},{"start":317.376,"end":340.184,"text":"跟委員報告修正一下我們不能讓它成為既定事實主委你要怎麼做我們就是依法行政我們剛剛講到不管是它現在不具備有兩岸條例參選的資格之外剛剛您特別強調它也沒有照我們國際法的要求落實對中華民國單一效忠的義務"},{"start":341.857,"end":368.93,"text":"所以他是雙重違法在這種情況底下我們今天我們就是依法行政我們沒有辦法接受一個不具備立委資格的人對行政官員進行質詢我們認為合法的立委才具有憲法的質詢權好另外我再重述為什麼針對李貞秀的女士的所知我們不能配合的原因"},{"start":369.77,"end":392.763,"text":"台上七分鐘台下七個小時他可以做什麼台上七分鐘他可以捍衛自己認為是中國沒有辦法給他放棄國籍的身份不是他的原因台下七個小時他可以跟內政部索取國土安全之關鍵基礎設施他可以跟進管陸出境管理局"},{"start":393.944,"end":421.362,"text":"來要求這些所謂的監控名單他可以跟警政署、維安特勤要索資讓國家元首、讓國家首長可能都遭遇危險他可以索資要求這些敏感地區他可以對海委會、海巡署索資要求海域情資、細思而且他要求這些內容如果提供的話他又將面對中國包含反間諜法、國安法"},{"start":423.503,"end":452.086,"text":"他是會被 欸 沈伯陽委員那麼明確效忠台灣中華民國他也會被跨海通緝 何況是李貞秀女士啊秦 李 法 我們都不可以同意是 委員我們很贊成因為任何人只要沒有放棄對岸的國籍按照中共的國家安全法 國家情報法 反間諜法他就必須配合中共收集情報所以這個對他而言 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我們繼續開會 請徐信義委員發言謝謝主席 本席有請我們陸委會邱主委好麻煩邱主委徐委員好邱主委好今天本席要談的"},{"start":27.787,"end":47.772,"text":"最主要是我們台灣人民的人身安全現在正在跨境受到威脅 您認同嗎是 已經有好多件跨境鎮壓的案例了我看到陸委會的報告 你們自己的報告寫有313件案件"},{"start":50.694,"end":66.371,"text":"313是到中國大陸去因為刑方不明或是受到他法律限制我們人身自由不能回來還有失蹤的 114人失聯174人疑似被限制人身自由這是你們的報告"},{"start":67.532,"end":95.397,"text":"那這中間一定也還有黑數吧你們有掌握嗎所以我們也注意到這些是有來跟我們報案的那沒有報案的更多所以這些黑數可能是更多所以我們也要關注更重要的是這個數字它仍然以每個月20件在增加所以主委你都發現每個月20件在增加所以我們就看出這個是不是形成一個制度性的風險"},{"start":97.385,"end":113.705,"text":"所以我們要提醒國人,復入還是要有風險所以已經形成制度性的風險了你們難道沒有保護制度,你們只能提醒啊所以難怪大家一直說陸委會該裁撤你現在制度性風險你怎麼辦"},{"start":116.656,"end":131.741,"text":"是跟委員報告我們由於跟中國大陸過去也有兩岸共同打擊犯罪司法互助合作的機制好像是在馬英九總統執政好像民進黨執政之後雙方仍然仍然透過既有的溝通聯繫機制我們要讓對方去了解維護兩岸民眾的權益這個很重要"},{"start":143.945,"end":154.518,"text":"那我們還是按照這個機制去維護你按照這個機制那現在面對你自己都承認這是形成一個制度性風險你到底有沒有掌握嘛你掌握多少呢"},{"start":155.089,"end":180.584,"text":"是 我們也不斷透過各種的宣傳管道要國人出入那你還是提醒 你還是宣傳而已沒有 那個制度啊沒有數據就沒有治理嘛所以我請問你 你有沒有了解哪些地區最危險你總是要給我們民眾你提醒之外 你要給他一些更明確的東西哪些地區最危險"},{"start":182.008,"end":197.845,"text":"沒有 沒有掌握哪些身份最容易被鎖定我覺得他散佈在各個地方中國各主要的 當你程式為主各個地方都有對啊 所以你就是沒有掌握你才會這樣講那我再問你 哪些身份最容易被鎖定"},{"start":200.234,"end":222.408,"text":"各種身份都有你比如說我們曾經擔任機敏工作的人或者是擔任公務人員、副路都很容易被對岸的相關人員接觸機敏工作跟擔任過公務員的"},{"start":224.029,"end":244.427,"text":"對 比如說他過去可能擔任一些安全工作 很容易被接觸你那個313件 你能掌握的裡面 我問你失聯的跟疑似被限制人身自由裡面有多少比例是公務員 多少比例是你說的機敏身份 你跟我講這個比例我們事後可以給委員"},{"start":246.3,"end":275.239,"text":"所以我是你們沒有掌握嘛沒有沒有沒有 我們都有掌握每一間的類型都有包括委員很關心的我們很多像一貫道的朋友在中國大陸被逮捕或是審判所以是不是一貫道的身份也是很容易被鎖定他風險比較高他如果有傳教的行為哪些活動風險高 這我第三個要問的哪些活動風險高"},{"start":277.201,"end":298.064,"text":"我想他各種的類型當然有些在中國大陸從事犯罪當然被他們的相關法律限制人身自由當然這是相當大的比例不過我們最近發生一個比例我們越來越覺得就是這個刑方不明失蹤的案例這個報案的人數有增加"},{"start":298.592,"end":311.196,"text":"那到底什麼類型嘛 到底什麼樣的身份 哪些地區或它是哪些活動的風險最高這三個問題你們一直講出來 我們事後可以再追納相關的細項我們是規劃了很多類型 我們都願意提供給委員來參考"},{"start":321.36,"end":344.093,"text":"你身為陸委會主委你應該對你這就是台灣大陸地區連這樣的一個問題你都沒辦法掌握好最後我再講你們的登錄系統你知道只有幾%登錄嗎你知道嗎我們大概都維持在2點多對啊整個登錄系統就2%那我問你另外98%的人呢沒有進入到保護系統"},{"start":345.509,"end":350.273,"text":"所以我不知道陸委會在做什麼是委員我們在"},{"start":351.81,"end":376.651,"text":"這幾年中國大陸人數有大幅增加但是我們登錄的人數也增加蠻多至少這兩年我們登錄的人數跟比例都有增加再怎麼增加你就2%那98%呢?所以我們說絕對不是只有宣導你就是沒有機制沒有制度"},{"start":378.047,"end":399.913,"text":"你只能一直宣導所以我想要問的是我們這個接著你國人如果被留置反正前面我的所有問題你們大概都沒辦法回答那我現在再問一個最關鍵的我們國人如果被留置的時候請問政府怎麼做"},{"start":401.889,"end":420.856,"text":"你可以怎麼做?你有沒有單一窗口?你有沒有SOP標準作業程序?是,我們還是透過兩岸的司法還是只有一個有機會的只讀不回的傳真機?當然不是如此我們仍然在兩岸共打還有相關的機制"},{"start":421.896,"end":446.895,"text":"我們把相關的人在中國大陸刑方不免或是犯什麼罪你有沒有單一窗口你先回答這個問題還是在詢問中國大陸到底我們國人下落何在或是犯了什麼刑法我們這回剛剛也說我們風險的提醒我們都一直在講來講去就只有提醒"},{"start":448.036,"end":472.39,"text":"還有陸陸登陸的系統 民宿也在增加所以我在前面的會期就講 你就改成叫對大陸宣傳委員會因為你只會做宣傳好 最後我還要再問你剛剛講有有有 什麼都有請問你平均處理時間多少發生事情之後你成功的聯繫率又是多少你的KPI在哪裡你回答我"},{"start":474.252,"end":497.105,"text":"我們至少都有跟每一位家屬都有到家戶的訪談要保護我們的國人這不是政府的責任嗎我們提供各種法律各方面的協助他的家屬而且台灣跟對岸不管經商旅遊甚至各種的活動這麼的頻繁今天本席的所有問題"},{"start":498.306,"end":522.514,"text":"主委我很遺憾你都沒有辦法給明確的回答而且都感覺到我們的陸委會真的沒有這個我要跟委員講我們陸委會同仁 海基會同仁各部會同仁都盡心盡力今天唯一造成這個效果成效不好我想對岸婦有很大的責任他們刻意的政治杯葛我們這是兩岸風險之所在"},{"start":523.274,"end":546.522,"text":"但是我們自我要求的包括現在國人登錄的人數也是明顯增加等於上一屆當立委的時候國民黨執政沒有這個問題啦所以你現在什麼責任推給別人也很容易嘛成功者找方法,失敗者找理由所以我們希望陸委會加油好不好謝謝,謝謝委員,我們會努力"}]}},{"id":"167788","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167788","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a494966b8c36920b078568ba5efa48cb629cbc3a6108f1e631677080d570f7ede5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:02:25 - 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謝謝蘇嘉全董事長"},{"start":245.879,"end":252.169,"text":"那雖然因為剛才其實我們召委有說明但是非常感謝你還是願意上來來做詢問謝謝謝謝董事長好 那個時間暫停那請我們陸委會主委"},{"start":264.056,"end":286.407,"text":"主委剛才黃建委員問您一個問題事實上我覺得您有點糊弄過去他是請教你就你所了解到目前為止有沒有大陸人民來到台灣插曲的這個戶籍落籍之後他有成功放棄中華人民共和國的國籍有沒有人完成過"},{"start":287.54,"end":312.58,"text":"放棄中華人民共和國國籍有沒有人完成過戶籍沒有問題 國籍如果他有取得其他國家國籍如果是陸配的話是有相當的困難所以你所了解應該是沒有取得他們官方的證明是有困難"},{"start":314.261,"end":337.935,"text":"有這個因為媒體啊就是這個名嘴怎麼講啊因為他們根本不是陸委會也不是海基會所以如果按照您所了解至少到目前為止在台灣的大陸籍不管是配偶或大陸籍人士在台灣取得戶籍但他沒有成功放棄中華人民共和國國籍而現在而現在我們內政部"},{"start":339.116,"end":366.052,"text":"一再要求就李貞秀委員一定要放棄國籍他才保有這個立法委員的身份這會不會強人所難跟委員報告我們的國籍法當然我們不是內政部我們不是他主管機關就我們了解國籍法它有分兩段第一段就是你在就職前你就必須放棄那放棄你要表達你主觀的態度意願要出來"},{"start":367.011,"end":384.617,"text":"那到底中國大陸政府願不願意發出一個證明說你已經放棄可是他沒有辦法發出就說按照你們的經驗值他至少有一個按照我們經驗值中國大陸政府可能會阻擾不會配合他不會配合所以這個其實真的某一個程度是強人所難"},{"start":385.397,"end":412.188,"text":"因為時間關係但是我要講的說我們現在政府是一個精神錯亂的政府為什麼呢按照你們今天的報告你的口頭報告第二頁就講說就說今天對國家負有高度忠誠義務的軍公教人員要查核他有沒有中共的身份證等等之類的然後避免軍公教人員施政因兩岸雙重身份導致外界質疑"},{"start":412.889,"end":420.701,"text":"所以這包含這個立法委員也要求你不得有所謂的雙重國籍可是好笑了當這個義男他說我現在"},{"start":426.421,"end":442.793,"text":"這個已經入籍了中國大陸已經入籍中國大陸那我可以不用服役了吧印南這不是軍公教嗎不是軍人嗎結果內政部說沒有關係你即便喪失台灣的身份啊你還是要服役啊"},{"start":443.753,"end":466.879,"text":"這不是雙重標準嗎如果你今天覺得立法委員是有機敏性難道G隊裡面沒有機敏性嗎一來都告訴你我現在沒有台灣身份我現在是中國大陸籍的身份有他的戶籍然後但是我們的政府說不行你仍然需要進入G隊需要去當兵所以我要講的是這部分我們的邏輯是不是錯亂啊"},{"start":471.121,"end":499.175,"text":"跟委員報告 我們邏輯來自於我們依法行政在兩岸條例第九條之一我們就是依法行政跟委員報告 您剛剛說的這些我們軍公教對國家要效忠的這個我們不能在兩岸有雙重的這些身份包括申領他們的身份證 戶籍那這部分我們從我們公務員做起越南不是軍人啊越南不是軍公教嗎"},{"start":499.955,"end":522.732,"text":"是 那你剛剛提到那個所以我們說你在台灣擁有台灣身份但是你取得中國大陸身份你就會喪失台灣的身份以及因台灣的戶籍所有的權利但是你的義務並不因此而失去所以這個時候你們要引用兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":524.353,"end":547.752,"text":"對不對 老師說啦當你們認為在兩岸人民之間不適用兩岸人民關係條例而要適用國籍法的時候其實我們最近就一直在直接的挑戰你們主委啊 其實你們應該揮刀自攻啦既然要配合這個兩岸是一邊一國要適用國籍法的話"},{"start":548.553,"end":560.555,"text":"其實陸委會真的可以揮刀自攻直接把廢除掉兩岸人民關係條例直接廢除掉陸委會否則的話就會出現這樣的雙標以及整個的邏輯錯亂跟委員報告我們沒有雙標跟委員報告我們兩岸條例第21條就是我們會依法維護保障陸配的參政權不管是登記為公職候選人"},{"start":577.458,"end":584.06,"text":"或者是應考市府公職當你拒絕回答李徵秀委員的質詢的時候當你現在還在講說我們會依法保障陸配的參政權的時候真的非常非常的諷刺"},{"start":594.224,"end":611.829,"text":"因為現在不是只有李貞秀委員而已現在連基層的陸委會的參政權你們陸委會都沒有保障而且你們並沒有依照兩岸人民關係條例的基礎去保障他們好 委員這不是事實 我們依法保障好 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謝謝主席 我們請邱主委好 請邱主委"},{"start":15.897,"end":39.423,"text":"好 謝謝在請教主委之前我還是要強調今天的程序其實是合法掩護非法因為我看不懂為什麼就是國民黨跟民眾黨的委員要聯合搞一個這樣子首開先例的委員會聯合質詢那破例讓一位為了要護航一位雙重國籍的中國籍民眾那在這邊開了委員會史上的先例"},{"start":43.618,"end":63.848,"text":"不好意思喔時間可以暫停嗎因為我們召委不在那我們是不是等召委回來還是你先喊休息好不好是代理召委請尊重代理召委不好意思喔我們先時間先暫停我們先要代理召委先向召委回答各位上我們再進行會議"},{"start":70.154,"end":73.575,"text":"我們再繼續進行會議主席要是立法委員的身份"},{"start":89.15,"end":100.576,"text":"謝謝 我是代理召委我們請亮心想召委回到座位上我們再繼續質詢質詢時間暫停 請時間暫停時間暫停代理召委宣布時間繼續代理召委宣布時間繼續不要沒收我質詢的權利時間暫停 請時間暫停時間暫停"},{"start":116.863,"end":127.13,"text":"時間暫停代理召委時間暫停請廖先生召委繼續召開會議我們的會議再繼續進行沒錯沒錯李博義召委也在現場應該優先請李博義召委"},{"start":146.135,"end":147.316,"text":"我要強調的就是今天的程序完全亂了套"},{"start":176.731,"end":192.944,"text":"這個聯合質詢如果搞下去未來是不是我也可以登記完之後讓後面所有我想要一起邀請的委員把所有的時間都暫住那這樣子我們一位一位這麼準時八點來登記的這幾位委員對大家情何以堪呢"},{"start":193.644,"end":213.679,"text":"所以我必須說委員會的程序就是這樣大家就是先來後到照著八點到時間誰先登記誰就先質詢如果這個聯合質詢可以這樣搞好啊那大家以後都不用八點來一個人代表就好其他人就跟他一起聯合質詢不就好了嗎那這樣子我們那麼準時早起來到這邊簽到的這些委員對大家來說是把大家裝校委嗎"},{"start":217.842,"end":245.071,"text":"所以必須要講說不需要為了護航一個這個雙重國籍的中國籍民眾那為了要創造一個讓行政官員答詢這樣的假象那今天硬搞這一出這完全就是合法掩護非法那非常非常的難看好 那首先也想要請教我們陸委會邱主委請問我們有成功放棄中國籍的民眾來到台灣落地生根嗎"},{"start":246.57,"end":257.378,"text":"因為我必須要講上禮拜其實鍾小平議員還有包括宋亦夫這樣子的評論員在節目上都有提到他們有很多的朋友其實都有成功放棄的經驗"},{"start":259.369,"end":278.562,"text":"是,跟黃國仁報告,放棄中國大陸的戶籍來到台灣來轉換身份來到台灣轉換成我們台灣身份的人非常非常多包括現在絕大部分的陸配都是經過轉換身份來到台灣安居樂業"},{"start":280.323,"end":296.365,"text":"至於您剛剛提到轉換國籍目前是中國大陸的政策不讓他們依照合法的程序來放棄可能會遭到一些困難不過"},{"start":298.087,"end":320.553,"text":"因為他的國籍法也有相關的一些程序規定當事人也要依照我們的國籍法在任職前,任公職前應該要表達放棄的意思那中國大陸到底會不會給你申請回這個國籍證明至少有一年時間可以來證明不過我要強調我們中華民國的國籍法"},{"start":324.514,"end":346.534,"text":"基本上都在落實對中華民國忠誠義務這個單一忠誠義務是針對所有國人一視同仁我們在國際上也許有很多國家他們也很多不能放棄的像阿根廷、墨西哥、像沙烏地阿拉伯、摩洛哥像巴拉圭"},{"start":349.477,"end":375.245,"text":"玻利維亞這些國家他們都沒有辦法放棄所以他們的國民來到我們台灣就算是來到我們台灣成為國民他也一樣沒辦法擔任我們的公職因為沒辦法放棄國籍所以我們是針對所有的人都一視同仁不是針對中國大陸的配偶"},{"start":377.425,"end":397.211,"text":"刁難我想不讓中國大陸的配偶放棄國籍是中國大陸的政府造成的並不是台灣政府造成的困擾那我們也強調剛剛也說如果任何人沒有放棄對岸的國籍你根據中共的國家安全法國家情報法及反間諜法"},{"start":398.251,"end":424.967,"text":"你就必須配合中共收集情報因此會造成他不是違反中共的法律拒絕收集台灣的情報就是違反台灣的法律 洩漏國家機密即無法落實單一效忠同時也讓當事人陷入兩難這是我們的一些目前的一些法律所以我們跟委員報告我們就是依法行政"},{"start":425.711,"end":440.895,"text":"好 謝謝丑卓也說明 在這邊也補充一下其實中國純國人大在3月12號有通過這個民族團結進步促進法那它的內容是什麼呢 除了說要求要增進台人對中華民族的認同還強調說會依法追究破壞民族團結的行為那其實這樣的內容跟您剛剛提到的這個反間諜法 國家情報法 國家安全法"},{"start":450.618,"end":477.309,"text":"其實都是相似的而且非常的嚴重也就是說我們在無法確認一位這樣子的公職對台灣有單一效忠的前提之前你對有中國籍你就是要必須遵守這些中國的法律你可能要被迫要收集相關的情報你可能如果你沒有表達觸同的話你可能還要被懲罰所以單一效忠非常非常的重要是嗎"},{"start":478.157,"end":503.371,"text":"是 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謝謝主席 我們請邱主委好 請邱主委主委好主委好 主委放心我會基於我的立法委員的身分和我的職責對你進行非常正統的發言和質詢謝謝所以我們現在就來討論一下陸委會到底應該要怎麼樣對最近的中國涉台事件能夠在社群媒體中間能夠加強說明"},{"start":36.741,"end":56.877,"text":"因為其實我可以看到來第一頁我們看到其實陸委會的執掌確實就是依照第三條有下面這六項那其實每一項都互相關聯啦所以我特別要強調的話因為比較具體的話應該是跟我要講的內容有相關的應該是第六項大陸政策國會聯繫以及"},{"start":58.618,"end":87.618,"text":"國內外溝通說明和新聞發布的研擬規劃協調執行所以我們就來看一下就是這一個月我以三月為例以三月為例的話陸委會在您的臉書上面也就是社群粉絲上面大概討論上面的所以我這樣列出來的應該就是你們社群網路上面關心的發布的訊息對不對有這個假訊息的錯誤的錯假訊息的澄清碼"},{"start":89.079,"end":106.896,"text":"那也有這個省副主委去接受專訪的時候那這樣這幾個主委可不可以特別說明一下可以請您說明一下您立委會大概都有哪一方面的訊息你會進行這個說明哪一方面第一個當然是政府的重要的政策的意涵"},{"start":107.597,"end":127.606,"text":"第二個是中國大陸對於我們進行很多的認知作戰混淆了我們的認知這個我們特別要去澄清說明沒錯沒錯好那如果是你第二個認知作戰的部分的話也列在你們的重點項目的話那主委我認為我今天執行的主題就是我認為你們的範圍應該要更寬一點"},{"start":131.107,"end":147.496,"text":"因為其實這幾年來大家對錯假訊息對認知作戰已經都有了初步的概念好 可是呢其實這種製造錯假訊息的技術是日新月異那所以我們可能更要到源頭回去讓大家從認識"},{"start":149.837,"end":163.766,"text":"錯假訊息也就是媒體識讀的這方面甚至要前進到哪一些狀態會變成錯假訊息的來源源頭我今天想跟你分享的一個我今天跟討論的一個是我們在上週"},{"start":165.488,"end":177.38,"text":"3月14號的時候台灣民主實驗室發布了一個報告他說英國的這個範德堡大學揭露了中國企業中科天機他們有一份399頁的文件整理其中就發現有擬定針對台灣的監控計畫"},{"start":184.026,"end":200.47,"text":"這其中包括了170份詳細的政治人物檔案2300萬筆封閉來源的台灣戶籍資料以及數以萬計關於宗教學術與商業精英也就是說都是人的記錄然後還包括了70個政黨11478家公司等等哇 這麼多 甚至是有"},{"start":206.152,"end":225.931,"text":"一萬三千個宗教團體還有兩萬四千個人民團體所以他直接下結論了這份報告直接下結論說這些資料為中天科技提供了一幅有組織的公民與社會生活的廣泛地圖作為影響台灣的基礎然後他會做什麼然後他又利用AI"},{"start":226.912,"end":255.911,"text":"深層精工華語台語的高擬真虛擬人物大規模冒充台灣人意圖對台進行認知滲透與分化主任您知道這個訊息嗎我們非常關注這個資訊立委會有什麼態度表示是 跟委員報告我想也不僅是這個大量在使用AI的深層式的一些甚至一些深微的一些短影片或者是用這個機器人的假帳號"},{"start":256.912,"end":281.758,"text":"以及入職APP透過這些假訊息排山倒海鋪天蓋地來影響我們民主憲政的正常運作甚至在選舉時間的時候進行竊選這個都是非常嚴重的問題那我們陸委會跟各部會都對於中國大陸這些對台的這個透過網路進行對我們政治作戰我們基本上有四個做法"},{"start":282.458,"end":288.884,"text":"第二當然就是要快速的揭露如果讓這個錯假訊息在我們的網路世界在我們的數位空間影響我們的認知這是太嚴重了"},{"start":297.853,"end":307.645,"text":"你還在講嚴重我就直接給你看因為我們有準備那等一下你的幾個原則你的處理原則麻煩你簡要說明來我們看一下以現在這樣的狀況來講的話其實現在的階段本來都還在用一些"},{"start":313.151,"end":323.634,"text":"你看到很多的比如說我來舉例的話就是這種養生健康的頻道每天都讓你看這些健康的資訊你以為你在讀一些保養什麼膝關節血脂肪脂肪等等之類的狀況可是呢這些健康的網站左邊這邊本來你訂閱的時候長左邊這樣可能在同一天晚上瞬間啪一個就轉過去全部變成了錯假訊息"},{"start":342.739,"end":370.621,"text":"全部變成了台灣面臨對岸風險台灣這個有被美日加聯手封殺台灣的這些金融狀況突然出現危機這就是我們平常在預防這些看起來無害的頻道但瞬間卻變成了錯假訊息的傳遞管道嘛好本來這些就已經夠嚴重了可是現在剛剛說的吸收到個資之後他要做什麼"},{"start":371.081,"end":382.335,"text":"其實就是運用AI拿到各自運用AI的模型去訓練新的影片生成所以主委其實我本人就已經遇到這樣的狀況了3月9號的時候"},{"start":386.54,"end":403.394,"text":"在野黨的主席 國民黨的主席對我進行了一些批評和攻擊之後當天的下午 同一天的下午我卻已經看到了網路上有影片看起來好像是對我個人做了一些深屏視略的簡介當然其中已經包括很多錯誤的資訊 但"},{"start":405.055,"end":426.473,"text":"中間就已經包含了在國民黨主席在上午對我的批評已經夾進裡面生成這樣的影片從上午有新聞到下午影片我們查詢到這有多久這才幾個小時而已耶這不是很可怕嗎那我們現在看到這份報告裡面剛剛在說的這份報告裡面其實他對這個AI"},{"start":430.677,"end":443.03,"text":"在認知作戰的閃電認知戰還有具體的KPI是15分鐘內從即時偵測台灣社群媒體輿論熱點到自動生成新影片引導輿論主委"},{"start":446.311,"end":464.31,"text":"我覺得我們的狀況我們面臨的處境實在非常非常的險峻所以我們希望的話是陸委會其實不只是對這樣的錯假訊息要能夠有澄清這是第一步你們現在暫時有做到了第二個是像現在這一頁列出來的錯假訊息的管道"},{"start":464.93,"end":481.424,"text":"要能夠進行討論要進行公告要進行查封查核等等甚至是到前面我們剛剛說的像有這種天氣資訊在天氣科技這樣的資訊大量的蒐集的時候你要怎麼樣讓大家進一步的了解"},{"start":482.225,"end":504.361,"text":"AI生成的微影片是可怕的如何去辨識這種影片我想這已經到了第三階段我們要對錯假訊息有新的認識新的做法主任你同意嗎非常同意我剛剛講除了快速接受立即澄清之外還不夠我們還必須要剛剛委員所說的要快速反映依法下降"},{"start":504.761,"end":522.423,"text":"我們現在的法律已經有提出來我們國家安全國安法相關的條文已經針對有一些錯假訊息或證訊它可能危害國家安全跟社會安定之餘我們透過一個機制讓我們可以快速處理然後依法下架"},{"start":522.864,"end":549.294,"text":"避免雖然我們澄清但是它還在持續危害當然我們需要透過國際合作因為很多的跨國公司網路平台公司都是跨國公司不然是Google MetaLine或者是我們中國大陸的APP小紅書或者是新加坡的TikTok抖音這個東西我們當然是窮盡一切透過跨國合作來減少這個"},{"start":551.495,"end":569.306,"text":"問題的傳播那另外我們也要強調我們要對我們台灣整體社會進行試讀教育試讀中國大陸試讀網路讓大家看到這個錯假訊息啊他不會馬上被引導減少我們增加我們台灣的社會韌性增加我們台灣的民主防衛機制"},{"start":570.126,"end":585.587,"text":"我再提醒一次我覺得這是一個比速度的時代比如說剛剛今天的質詢發生了什麼狀況也許陸委會其實就應該要更清楚的對社會做一個說明陸委會的立場和態度是什麼這是一個比速度的時代謝謝主委謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"167779","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167779","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8ae9ee0c013e562a0f3e8ac6646e11c8ec29cbc3a6108f1e631d297194e58c514e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:57:04 - 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但是歷來都會透過來協商來接近合約中也不會去寫明這些相關的這個如果食鹽到貨有沒有相關的賠償都不會 或者相關的責任食鹽到貨是確實在軍購的項目上面是沒有辦法做這樣的要求但是軍購按以剛剛講F16來講我們現在要求要加速所以他們也進行兩班制然後呢也整個將產線呢"},{"start":229.459,"end":248.234,"text":"做個這個大幅的改進所以你講的現在包括在試飛在線上都已經有59架的這個飛機我想透過這樣的協商他們會加速來產製運交所以是沒有辦法去要求他們如果沒有辦法要求他們部長我請問"},{"start":249.895,"end":267.17,"text":"對於我們國民黨版的第7條第7條的規定不曉得這個部長有沒有詳細閱讀啦就是主管機關因專案列管及考核本條例所列計劃之執行並將執行進度及績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告"},{"start":268.211,"end":293.659,"text":"本條例所列預算的執行審計機關應依法辦理審計審計機關審核各機關依本條例辦理之軍事採購及相關建構計劃如發現因工人員違法或失職之計劃執行進度或交付成果顯著未達核定目標或其執行成效低於核定進度的50%者應將執行機關首長及相關主管移送監察院調查懲戒"},{"start":294.739,"end":316.148,"text":"主管機關及其上級機關應依法執行並落實監督機制確保國防預算確實投入戰略建構部長你暫時這樣的一個草案條文嗎我們特別條例本來就是每會期都要向立法院提出專案報告就是說條例通過然後預算通過之後也是要這個之前"},{"start":317.569,"end":337.723,"text":"那個海空戰力特別提升的條例還有F-16都是這樣子的所以第一項每年一次我想我們把它明文化了你贊成這樣的一個條文的一個草案嗎有關那個第一項的部分我只是說明就是說我們已經有向每年都會向這個立法院提出報告"},{"start":338.564,"end":358.538,"text":"然後我想審計機關也會依法辦理審計這個應該都是無用無帶規定就我們依照這個相關的決議還有審計機關也都會依法來辦理這個應該是沒有需要要寫在這個條例裡面嗎至於有關那個沒有"},{"start":360.238,"end":365.44,"text":"第三項呢?沒有達到50%這個部分我想剛剛已經說明了就是說這個政府對政府我們會來進行協商然後來進行改進我想這個部分因為這個延誤交運的這個延誤然後就要送這個監察院調查懲戒"},{"start":383.386,"end":408.135,"text":"在我們看起來這個應該也沒有必要是部長我想在野黨就是具一個監督的一個一個角色對於相關軍購的延擋我們還是希望就是催促我們國防部相關的官員在這方面要跟美方積極的去做溝通因為就是看到說這個F16都可以延擋那麼久"},{"start":410.221,"end":425.093,"text":"錢都給了那麼多結果延宕那麼久所以我們才會有這樣一個草案的一個版本所以部長認為如果認為說這個是本來就有做我想把它明文化這不是更好嗎所以你說沒有必要我也覺得很訝異"},{"start":427.268,"end":442.442,"text":"至於說要不要去移送監察院來懲處說因為延宕造成整個計畫的執行我想這個也是督促我們相關官員要確實落實整個計畫執行的必要性嘛這都有它必要性嘛"},{"start":443.715,"end":461.981,"text":"所以部長我覺得把它明文化是很好的一件事情啊所以你不贊成我不曉得為什麼你會說不贊成我想我們本來就是接受立法院的一個監督啦所以我的意思就是說接受立法院的監督這一件事情就一直持續在進行"},{"start":464.462,"end":482.01,"text":"好啦,我想這個等到討論的時候,我們大家還會有一番爭執啦那我是建議說整個軍購還是要有落實我們的監督計畫執行的整個的成效我想這一點非常很重要,我們才會去做一個明文的規定好,以上,謝謝好,謝偉"}]}},{"id":"167797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a75968d99f39e25ec3e8ac6646e11c8ec29cbc3a6108f1e63334a1e86bb4a3c825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"12:22:54 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那我們看到的是在現在的這個全軍的邊線比的變化到去年都會從2010年開始 2021年開始之後就一直在這個80%以下他所影響的是會是暫時根本沒有發揮他編制擁有的全部戰力還有裝備沒有人"},{"start":35.879,"end":62.668,"text":"操作的這個問題那請問現在有沒有什麼改變的方式讓我們的一般公民能夠越多的想要去從軍呢跟委員報告事實上我們去年的邊線比已經有提升那我們的遊營率也提升我們志願役的人數也增加超過應該是四千多個了所以我們整個逐年我們希望能夠改善我們的這個"},{"start":64.469,"end":84.383,"text":"改善我們的邊縣比留營率跟我們增加我們的這個志願役人數時間有限了 顧部長我是不是要你的那個方法事後再給我好不好我們去年有到增加這個戰鬥加急的這個部分這個我想是有幫助的我們會後再跟委員做個說明"},{"start":88.106,"end":91.333,"text":"好 謝謝我們繼續再往下看今天最重要當然是因為國防的軍購的這個部分那我們看到的是一個問題現在呢"},{"start":98.877,"end":119.963,"text":"國防這部分呢我們想問的是有沒有依照113年的5年的兵力整建計畫去進行那我們現在看到的是您在行政院版在這第四條的五六七項當中並沒有特別的去把詳細的內容說清楚當然我們更想問的是說你們應該是在這個因為在去年的11月27號有提出來就是院版的有提出來那提出來之後呢"},{"start":123.644,"end":147.288,"text":"當然美國也收到了啦 但是這邊我們並沒有收到的是說你們應該是有跟美國國防部 美國方面提出來的LOR的request嘛 對不對那這邊台灣並沒有收到 後來我們再到兩個禮拜之前的時候呢 收到的是說就要想到這個LOA啦 那這個地方呢是不是應該要在去年的時候就應該提出來的 LOR的部分跟我們的立法院來做一下報告 這些部分"},{"start":149.077,"end":172.719,"text":"跟委員報我想第一個就是說我們跟美方之間這個有關提出需求這個部分如果美方表達有初步的供受意願我們會編列預算那超過一定金額要報行政院同意之後我們再編入我們的相關的這個預算文件裡面那麼在美國"},{"start":174.261,"end":187.155,"text":"軍購的這個部分在他還沒有知會國會之前這屬於機密所以我們之前也有就這個特別條例我們有排一個機密的一個專報有將全盤的內容跟"},{"start":188.937,"end":217.093,"text":"所有來參與的委員做一個完整的一個說明所以等到花架書來然後說才要這個有一個特別條例然後再通過特別預算這個是絕對絕對是來不及而且也治安難行那麼我跟委員報告就是條例跟預算是不一樣的條例只是規定一個大致的能力架構那我們沒有在規避大院的審查預算案"},{"start":217.873,"end":231.418,"text":"特別條例還是要送到委員會來啊所以沒有什麼空白授權也沒有採購內容不透明這個問題為什麼一定要一再把條例跟預算一直混淆呢沒有 我現在跟你講你剛才因為"},{"start":234.199,"end":255.829,"text":"沈博漾委員有提到我們民眾黨現在八席立委當中目前因為有六位是新的其實都沒有經過到參加過這樣的一個秘密會議的部分那您在3月11號也承諾說這個部分呢應該對民眾黨的委員們要做一下這個報告關於說當初在秘密會議所開的內容是不是您現在能夠承諾一下在可能在禮拜三禮拜四之前找個機會來進行"},{"start":257.602,"end":279.594,"text":"我想第一個,這個貴黨的委員的更衣,這個不是我能夠去控制嘛,這是貴黨做了更動那這個第一個,第二個,相關機密的部分呢,為了要確保這個機密所以要請這個召委來同意排一個機密的專報,我們才能夠做機密的一個說明"},{"start":281.235,"end":297.341,"text":"那不然的話這些精密的專報萬一流出去那到時候沒有辦法有人來來負責所以如果委員覺得因為大家都這個會計才新道論那想要再有一次了解了部長因為我時間有限我繼續再問你因為照"},{"start":299.902,"end":317.054,"text":"國防部的規劃的時候呢這樣子的預算呢這樣的一個建軍的兵力的總建是一個長期的嘛至少是五年的部分那未來的地方因為還有第二波那第二波的時候像這個LOR的部分是不是也可能有機會跟台灣"},{"start":318.115,"end":330.168,"text":"才跟我們的立法院來去做用機密報告的機密會議的方式來去呈現呢還是其實這個LOR都是沒辦法的其實我們最後都只能被LOA來去處理就是來去審議就對了幫委員那份文件叫LOR"},{"start":337.338,"end":356.021,"text":"那個for LOA那是我們的發價書需求信函那在美方智慧國會結束之後給我們的是LOA然後LOR它分好幾種LOR第一種我們會提出來是LOR for P&A是去尋價用的就是對方的供售意願跟尋價的"},{"start":357.222,"end":370.991,"text":"那我們也有可能美方在作業程序上面如果認為比較趕他會要求我們提出一個LOR for ROM就是那叫出估報價需求信函那這整個作業程序事實上"},{"start":372.496,"end":387.303,"text":"發架書本身是整個軍購作業裡面的產物而不是規劃文件他已經到了對方出具白紙黑字給我們說所以立法院最後就只有LOA的部分如果能夠比較時間比較充足的時候就來審議是不是"},{"start":388.806,"end":396.911,"text":"所以我們還是建議大院應該按照計畫預算制度理念好 如果講到這裡我就往下看 這就是想要講的因為在113年的時候呢 國防部事實上在8月30號已經提了五年兵力整建跟施政計畫報告那事實上紛紛在立法院的預算 國防的施政報告 國防部的報告書114年都有 立法院的國防部跟預算評估報告等等"},{"start":412.14,"end":424.313,"text":"這些部分其實在三建在這種幾個計畫當中呢都已經呈現出來了所有的建案都需納入聯合戰力規劃要項跟五年兵力整建計畫這些部分呢也看到到是說呢"},{"start":425.509,"end":451.457,"text":"以照現在的從你們現在目前的這個已經提供給立法院的部分來呈現出來的規模會持續擴大啦大概年度的投資會增加是國造跟軍購會有這個一千兩百億的這樣子的規模這部分看到內容上面這樣寫所以呢其實是有的齁那我隨時還要問的是說現在的目前所提出來的這個條例的部分齁是不是有預算或是未來整建計畫的東西是不是真的有要年成立計畫進行"},{"start":451.897,"end":477.896,"text":"包委員我們所有的建案都必須要納入五年兵力整建計畫之後才可以執行建案建案文件完成之後才可以編列預算這是我們的規定好 但是你知道嗎這個部分一直到三月七號才呈現在國防部裡面的新聞稿才呈現之前的時候其實並沒有那麼多的稱號說我們才會覺得說根本就不是讓大家可以很清楚的明白的這樣子一個情形我們的五年兵力整建計畫的詳細具體的內容是屬於機密"},{"start":483.394,"end":501.944,"text":"可是我們在看到的是剛剛我說那三項的兵力整建計畫他散佈在這些部分其實已經看到這樣的規模了那這部分我要呈現出來是說其實現在如果您已經有出現到是有這樣的五年兵力計畫等等就是一個長期的規劃預算那應該長期的規劃有節奏去施政那為什麼不去編入到經常性的預算來做正常的審查程序"},{"start":509.748,"end":515.07,"text":"這些部分才會是真正讓立法院能好好去監督啊而且呢如果說像現在講的話呢1200億或是..."},{"start":528.291,"end":544.022,"text":"根本更多的是他會甚至你每年的話就是一兆多的情況你五年的話那就五兆五那八年後的八兆多比你現在的一兆1.25億還要多喔這邊部分只要跟國防部去交換一件事請你如果從這地方經常性的預算去編列的話其實是還會讓台灣有更多的預算去進行的做國防預算去進行的那部長你的看法呢"},{"start":550.999,"end":575.967,"text":"我們有數百個時序案必須要支付所以我們115年的新增案的額度只有80億元剩持那如果這裡照2500億全部要用公務預算來支付照目前我們的規劃加上案項還有其他我們規劃當中的執行勢力造成出國案項根本沒有辦法支付或是造成我們國家"},{"start":577.301,"end":591.522,"text":"沒有 你年度上說你今年不是變到9500億了嗎你的1.25兆你除以8年的話不是也是增加大概1.5億而已嗎你這樣加起來其實就是平均每年大概就是這樣子啊這沒有辦法進行的嗎"},{"start":595.14,"end":621.591,"text":"委員好 我是主席局局長剛剛委員所提到的9495億其實它包含了好幾個面向年度公務預算我們國防部編列了5614億其他還包含特別預算還有海巡署跟輔導會編列有關國防預算的相關的額度所以加起來是9495億但是如果說把這個1.25兆編到年度預算的話1.25兆如果你是照五年的建軍計畫去進行的話其實年度平均的話就是會達到這樣的部分啦"},{"start":622.931,"end":649.977,"text":"民眾黨的意思就是在說 你應該就是照變成經常性的 常備性的預算去進行而不要用特別預算的方式去進行那這樣的話 其實每年扒起來 尤其你們現在一下框的是八年啊一點後照謝謝劉委員 要不要請他們書面回覆你書面回覆可以嗎就對我這邊的一個疑問我們會再跟委員做個說明好不好好 這邊的確需要多一些說明的好 謝謝 謝謝趙委"}]}},{"id":"167796","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167796","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8ae2e0e674f85302353e8ac6646e11c8ec29cbc3a6108f1e63a602a2cfbf58b3ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"12:14:12 - 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我想首先要說明我們有二十幾項的這些裝備 那麼剛剛已經講了沒有 我只提F16V 這六十六架F16V我只想知道 部長 部長 我沒有問您幾趴我們一直集中在F16V的一個交貨的實驗的部分而且我們已經一再說 再說 已經不曉得說了幾遍了"},{"start":135.37,"end":153.454,"text":"那麼對於我們F6B有關於我們這個交貨的這個遲延的部分也一再的去說明我們認為美方應該要改進的部分那美方也做了相當程度的改進那我今天也說了我們對於第一架我請問你"},{"start":157.595,"end":172.203,"text":"接下來這個所有我們的軍購他交貨與不交貨或者會不會延宕有沒有可能延宕不知道這是未來的未知數你們研判的標準是根據美方告訴我的我們的"},{"start":173.143,"end":189.1,"text":"或者是因為中間過程有很多有可能是不可控的因素譬如說原料可能會缺等等這是未來有可能會發生事也許不會但是你們一般評估判斷他會不會延宕你們是用什麼樣你們是自己判斷還是根據他的回應"},{"start":190.07,"end":211.879,"text":"我跟委員報告所有的軍購案都會成立一個監審的專案團隊成立這個專案辦公室我們都有派人在那個地方會有一個綿密的協調跟定期的會議甚至防場的集合我們來掌握那麼所有現在世界各國願意用政府對政府給我們提供軍購的只有美國"},{"start":213.447,"end":234.29,"text":"只有美國所以我們跟美國之間透過這樣子一個軍購的程序已經有長年的一個這樣子的一個經驗那美國政府對我們的承諾也是一種保證那麼美國政府跟我們之間在進行協商的過程當中他都會希望"},{"start":235.732,"end":251.921,"text":"這一個他們的合約廠商能夠加緊做他們的一個產生所以我最後只要講說我們不能夠因為X6V的一個個案而延宕那就不能夠代表說我們就不要再積極的建構強化我們的戰力"},{"start":253.922,"end":258.624,"text":"我沒有說不買喔我只問你 我剛剛是問你說我們是怎麼樣去做判斷因為兩岸的關係我們隨時我們買不到那我們在軍備上的調整我們是不是要有什麼樣其他的覆案這是我後面要問的我沒有問你說 我沒有說不買喔你不要把話灌在我身上喔那我第二個問題我就要請問因為今天時間也非常有限喔"},{"start":276.912,"end":281.759,"text":"就是說商購跟偽製的項目的風險的控管的部分因為我們這一次特別有編了3000億要去做商購跟偽製的控管的部分但因為過去有一個潛力就是我們在陸軍2022年建構採購的聯合高空的"},{"start":293.295,"end":309.152,"text":"精準的遙控空投系統等等但是也因為我們不是軍購我們是商購那所以最後因為沒有認證沒有寄令所以到最後包括我們跨軍種整合出現了瓶頸所以這就是商購相關的問題"},{"start":311.314,"end":317.358,"text":"這個未來你們在商購的部分我們如何去做過去因為我們有發生過潛力怎麼去做防範我希望這個部分你後續用書面回應我我最後一題我想請問部長在這一次在這一次伊伊的美國對伊伊的戰爭當中有軍事家分析認為說每一次實戰事實上都是我們下一次衝突的教科書美國在這一次伊伊戰爭中各種飛彈系統防禦系統其實都用上了"},{"start":338.291,"end":356.789,"text":"但是伊朗所有偵察機也都是用中國大陸北斗衛星的系統包括薩德愛國者頻頻發射中國大陸從這一次的實戰當中我們也好像也從很多的新聞資料當中也了解就是說他不費一兵一卒掌握了非常多的情資跟參數那我就要請問部長針對這樣的問題我們如何去有沒有什麼樣的因應策略"},{"start":365.008,"end":389.462,"text":"我們針對世界各國的武器狀況使用情形在我們整個戰略規劃裡面跟兵力整建當中我們都會列入考量那這些項目當中公開的資訊裡面有些不見得是準確的那我們還是要依照我們跟有門國家相關的情資有更正確的資料之後來針對我們的整個戰略規劃跟兵力整建"},{"start":389.462,"end":390.663,"text":"你們後續有去做一些研擬跟分析我們不會去做因應嗎"},{"start":403.106,"end":423.003,"text":"好那我要請問一下就是說在這一次當中包括相關的我們過去包括我們講說鐵穹鐵穹原本有80%到90%的攔截率但是因為伊朗他用飽和式的攻擊所以他整個攔截率低於50%或甚至只有50%左右那在這個過程當中我們得到什麼樣的經驗"},{"start":428.092,"end":450.466,"text":"貓委員 鐵熊它是一個專門性的它主要的功能是攔截火箭 破砲跟砲彈這是它的專業所以我剛剛講我們每一次戰爭過後不管是發生在我們這邊或我們周遭我們都要從中對 但一樣它每一次使用的手法是相當不一樣的所以我們獲得的資訊我們也會納入我們後來建構台灣之盾的一個參考所以你們是滾動式的調整嗎"},{"start":454.246,"end":471.099,"text":"推動線看起來你們好像從剛剛講你們已經知道要買什麼但是我提的是說你看現在中東的戰局那兩邊的就是對視那我們後續是不是不進有要再去做其他的調整那就你剛才講的你們可能要再去做調整所以我們才再一次的強調說一次編八年"},{"start":474.874,"end":501.774,"text":"買這麼長遠的東西會不會太長或者是太多或者是我們用逐年的方式來去做編列多編列幾個特別條例但不是一次編列這麼長這個是我最後要提的建議以上我的時間已經到了我想我們都持續的在不斷的建議無人載具我們也不是說就一次去買八年我們會來掌握這個整個一個跟這個創新的一個進程好不好"}]}},{"id":"167795","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167795","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8acee97656b41cdb4e3e8ac6646e11c8ec29cbc3a6108f1e634a3685e9cc37c4ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:05:30 - 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謝謝請顧部長"},{"start":10.211,"end":32.62,"text":"是 沈委員好 這個已經國防特別條例提出來已經好幾個月了那這個好不容易在我們這一個陳冠廷召委的努力之下我們現在有辦法來審查但是我覺得當然我們接下來還有禮拜三跟禮拜四會做逐條的審查所以我想說這一個"},{"start":33.46,"end":58.274,"text":"內容詳細的大概逐條審查的時候搭載的討論就可以可是我就一直在想就是說這一個國防現在造成的空窗期我覺得這還是一個很大的關鍵因為去年從去年開始討論這個國防條例這個在野黨一直有很多的理由說不審一下說是要國情報告一下又說什麼這一個不透明其實有記者會也有機密會議機密會議又不來"},{"start":60.695,"end":89.278,"text":"所以就是說那他們前面講的這些理由現在也都還在啊如果按照他們的宣稱這個情勢沒有任何的改變那為什麼現在就可以進入委員會審呢我覺得這個其實都是為了選舉而已啦那為了選舉然後才來審這一個軍共對我來講我覺得是一個不能接受的事情那會不會選舉完了之後然後又開始不審呢我們的國防總預算其實現在也還躺在立法院總預算到現在也都還沒有審"},{"start":90.279,"end":116.329,"text":"所以我覺得這一方面我覺得我們在禮拜三禮拜四審查的時候我覺得可能要放在心裡面是因為如果他從頭到尾如果在野黨只是為了一個政治表演的話那我們接下來要再往下不管是這一個行政院版的然後還是國民黨跟民眾黨的版本這樣在審查下去的時候這個內容很多我覺得會對國防部至愛難行所以我想先針對這些至愛難行的部分來問一下"},{"start":116.969,"end":139.869,"text":"第一個就是說這幾個版本第一個很大的差別就是第一條對於這個目的國防部一直以來就是台灣之盾跟非紅工應鏈這兩個我覺得是重中之重它不一定是佔最多的金錢但是它其實是整個我們對於防衛的核心而且需要長期的計畫那現在國民黨版跟民眾黨版本是沒有非紅工應鏈"},{"start":141.07,"end":158.161,"text":"那沒有飛鴻供應鏈這個對我們來講其實我剛有提到我們的國防總預算本身就已經有跟無人機相關的這個也跟我們對內的偽製跟商購這個也有關係這也跟我們要怎麼扶持台灣的產業有關係我們今天在戰備這整個需求上面如果我們今天還要仰賴"},{"start":159.242,"end":170.471,"text":"獨裁國家我們才有辦法去得到我們的軍備的時候這個在備戰一定會出問題所以我覺得光是第一條在這一開始的目的就已經不一樣這個往後先不要講說什麼金額寫死啦項目寫錯啦匯率的問題啦這個都先不談"},{"start":176.716,"end":203.884,"text":"光是在這一個第一條非紅供應鏈沒有存在在這一個目的之下我也覺得在這個一開始我們對於金額的討論可能就會遇到很大的落差那是我可不想跟國人說明一下就是雖然在國防部的記者會也都有提過這個還不觸及因為機密會議有一些是我們在機密會議在這邊已經問過很多次了但在不觸及機密的狀況之下是我可以再跟國人強調一下非紅供應鏈對我們的一個重要性非紅供應鏈我想會"},{"start":206.264,"end":234.065,"text":"明顯的呈現在有關我們因應新型型態的戰爭我們要建構的這個特別是無人的這個載具的不對稱戰力因為現在這個無人載具的這個產業鏈如果沒有辦法在國內自主而且形成一個非紅供應鏈的話對我們整個國防自主還有治安的威脅是相當相當的高那因為大家都很清楚現在商用無人機的市場上面中國的無人機是佔了"},{"start":237.442,"end":262.139,"text":"這個可能七成八成這樣子的一個那所以所有的這些民主國家大家都有一個共同的意識就是要來排除那台灣呃身在這一個呃這個我們要來強化不對稱戰力那特別是無人載具的產業鏈的發展的時候一定一定要排除這個紅色的工的鏈的部分那"},{"start":263.126,"end":281.817,"text":"在這個為了要讓他能夠有一個紅色供應排除紅色供應鏈我們一定要有一個足夠的一個需求規模這樣的一個足夠的需求規模才讓廠商願意去投資然後才能夠讓這一個世界各國願意將他的技術跟我們一起共同研發或者進行移轉"},{"start":283.057,"end":302.546,"text":"這個部分是非常非常重要的那沒有沒有這樣子的一個產業規模的建立你要打造一個排除這個紅色供應鏈的一個所謂的無人載具幾乎是不太可能謝部長因為現在就不是只有這個我們台灣自己現在日本跟韓國整個軍備都在提高當中"},{"start":303.426,"end":329.185,"text":"像歐洲對這個的需求也很大他們都需要非紅供應鏈所以在這個禮拜的經濟學人有一篇文章他就在講說他說台灣的無人機產業現在後來居上尤其是在非紅供應鏈盡量在零件的製造上面有這個Made in Taiwan這是經濟學人現在特別點名說台灣後來居上然後呢而且可以符合非紅供應鏈的需求"},{"start":329.845,"end":351.417,"text":"那我就覺得很詭異的就是說如果這個是一個台灣現在的產業發展我們又可以打入這一個世界民主同盟的供應鏈然後別人還特別點名說台灣現在價格還可以壓得比其他國家來得低特別點名的狀況之下這是一個台灣的整個產業發展的需求然後也是我們國防的需求但我們就拖了那麼多個月到現在"},{"start":352.458,"end":370.074,"text":"不但沒有辦法審這個中間的過程不審國防條例就算了我們面對的是鋪天蓋地的謠言他們不斷的故意去造謠說台灣的哪一個產業本來是做A的現在為什麼來做B就故意要汙名化現在要起來的產業我覺得這個很麻煩是因為我們現在好不容易進入到委員會"},{"start":371.235,"end":390.247,"text":"我今天在這邊坐了一整天我照樣還是聽到就是在講說這個多少沒有到貨我們錢付了多少出去這個六千億這個謠言已經多久了不管是國防部不管是我們的行政院不斷的去告訴對方講說有些根本還沒有到貨的我們還沒有付款"},{"start":391.948,"end":413.104,"text":"專戶你要轉了好幾首才會到對方的手上但這個謠言沒有要停止的意思他們就是一直要給民眾一個刻板的印象說我們就是有軍購延宕他們就是要做監督但我們在29項裡面明明就是那三項而且F16V我看國防部現在也去看了這個現在F16V的這個進展這66家的狀況"},{"start":415.546,"end":438.445,"text":"那這些我們應該再更用力的傳達給國人因為他們只要一直這樣不斷的造謠讓民眾有這樣的刻板印象我們在這邊要去守護這個特別預算就會變得更為困難現在民意是對於國防條例要審是有這樣的壓力不然的話這個其實根本就不會進入到委員會就是因為有選舉有壓力現在才好不容易進入委員會但現在才是戰場的開始"},{"start":440.166,"end":468.243,"text":"在這個禮拜三禮拜四之前照樣又會有相關的報導相關的謠言要去污蔑國防部在這邊就拜託國防部在這幾天應對謠言之上要能夠再盡速的去回應我們禮拜三禮拜四在看細部的條文的時候才能夠再跟國人清楚的說明說為什麼這是我們需要的因為時間因素你看現在台灣之盾這個部分還沒有講到光是飛鴻攻略這其實有太多太多的東西可以討論而且畢竟有一些是"},{"start":469.603,"end":487.212,"text":"機密會議的過程我們機密會議我們都是全程坐在這裡太多人根本就沒有來機密會議那他不來機密會議的目的就是因為他不來機密會議他就不知道內容他不知道內容他就可以在外面造謠他一旦進來了他得到這些機密的資訊他就知道他不能亂講話他就不能在外面造謠"},{"start":488.132,"end":505.703,"text":"所以我覺得我們針對這件事情希望我知道國防部有去跟各個委員說明這個說明更多他們就越難在外面去造這些謠言這個對我們守護台灣的預算才會有幫助那因為時間的因素因為今天很多人要問所以我就不再占用這個時間先謝謝部長 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那這個禮拜我們開始審查國防軍購相關的條例當然包含行政院有院版的民眾黨跟國民黨都各有版本那接下來禮拜三禮拜四的時候會進行審查那也算是有一個進度那我想我們都是支持能夠後質國防實力只是說在這個幾個版本上面看得出來大家對於要怎麼樣去編列有不同的看法"},{"start":38.337,"end":56.309,"text":"那國民黨呢跟民眾黨的版本相似度是比較高的就是編列的這個邏輯比較相似那第一個對美國的部分呢是採購用特別條例那其他的部分也並不是不支持而是說如果有需要的話可以回歸到一般預算的編列"},{"start":57.069,"end":78.252,"text":"那第二个呢是如果得到美国政府这个包含是国会授权的相关军售项目那立刻列入那如果有第二波的话那后续也都可以再追加第三点呢就是相关的一些期程规划那可能要要求清楚的说明那在立法院的监督责任这个部分呢是描述比较多的"},{"start":78.712,"end":84.656,"text":"所以說雖然它是看起來比較保守那當然因為這次軍購條例本來這個行政院版的這個金額是非常高高達1.25兆所以從監督的角度來講的話確實會比較保守但是像是一些未來就目前沒有在這個寫在民眾黨或國民黨版本裡面的並不代表"},{"start":97.563,"end":121.991,"text":"他不重要並不代表台灣不需要我們舉個例子C55SR這個東西其實對台灣而言是必要的那我們也同意只是說那我們的編列方式現在目前法條的寫法會變成等到可能這個第二波或者是美國有相關授權之後再寫進來那這方面我想國防部跟我們的國民黨民眾黨的看法不一樣這個我都能夠尊重但是呢其實"},{"start":122.991,"end":138.14,"text":"因為都還是按照實際的需求台灣的需求進行審查所以最近最後他是勢必一定會趨近於這個需求的那我前面講這麼多呢也是想要了解一下就是這個部長這裡有沒有跟"},{"start":139.505,"end":163.033,"text":"行政院這邊溝通過就因為畢竟現在立法院的多數是民眾黨國民黨那也很有可能到時候通過的版本是比較趨近於我剛剛講的這個方向那如果是這樣子的話那請問一下我們會按照這樣通過的法律做執行嗎比方說我先問第一個就是會有考慮說提出復議嗎"},{"start":165.559,"end":175.426,"text":"我想我沒有辦法幫行政院在這個地方做回答你們沒有討論過是這樣子我們國防部的立場當然還是希望我們通過我前面講這麼久你們沒在聽我前面的意思就是說我知道我們對於編列的看法大家有不一樣的地方那不一樣在哪裡"},{"start":186.494,"end":197.013,"text":"但是呢我也告诉你一个政治上的现实是那在在野党这边来说的话我们在立法院的人数比较多所以我想我必须要了解一下今天如果是按"},{"start":198.263,"end":227.735,"text":"國民黨 民眾黨這種方向的類似這樣的方向可能台灣都還會再有些變動這樣方向的編列方式去進行的話會不會不附屬啊或者是會不會提出復議或者會不會送釋憲因為這個在我們審查的時候其實也有可能是一個蠻重要的一個就是大家必須要有討論的因為如果今天我們現在是有集會訓的需求但是通過了這樣的版本最後它不附屬的話那對整體的我們的國防實力會造成一個很大的影響"},{"start":228.535,"end":256.138,"text":"但如果說其實按照這樣的方向去編列寫了這個條例之後通過了也一樣能夠有後續的預算編列讓它能夠上路一部分的話那這也不失為一種辦法所以我很想知道就算部長您今天不一定能夠回答我但是這個問題我覺得是蠻重要就是如果按照目前在野的編列方向這個角度來看的話會不會有不復熟的可能性啊"},{"start":257.031,"end":273.812,"text":"我跟委包括我雖然沒有辦法因為這個是院長的權責我沒有辦法幫院長在這個時候回答您剛剛所提問的問題是 我可以了解但是你們會再去跟他做討論嗎還是說你會等到通過之後才去做討論"},{"start":275.234,"end":287.297,"text":"跟委員報告 我們現在條例一件事 預算是一件事那條例我們當然是希望按照我們官部的條例才有所謂的複製 不附屬 釋憲的問題預算就不是這樣 這個條例的部分我要問的是這一點這是一個 你不要覺得我提前問你了因為這很關鍵 就是說如果按照這樣的編列方式那會不會有不附屬的結果的話"},{"start":300.481,"end":328.099,"text":"那當然這個壓力上面來說大家也都要再一次的去討論說那該怎麼做比較好嘛這個到後續政黨協商的時候或許也是有一個空間存在所以說我才會問這個問題那我知道您剛剛的回答就是說這個是行政院的決定所以你現在不知道但我會建議我會建議這其實是我的一個建議說可能要提早跟行政院這邊來做一個商議然後呢有機會的話能夠讓我們先知道"},{"start":328.539,"end":350.812,"text":"因為大家都是站在一個能夠讓國防實力後直的這個角度然後呢讓這個法三讀通過之後能夠有效的然後立刻對我們的國防實力產生幫助的這個前提之下所以我才覺得這個問題是重要的那現在你沒有辦法回答我沒關係齁那這個但是它是重要的你們如果想要解決這個問題的話還是要務實的來面對喔那好那這個先這樣子"},{"start":355.174,"end":383.776,"text":"那另外要問一個比較簡單的就是說呢這個我先前也問過有關於軍售的部分那個川普他因為有習近平的這個會談所以他講到說呢這個川習會那會討論台灣軍售先前我就提過了這個是違反了我們的六項保證裡面的第二項保證沒有經過同意就把對台軍售的議題向中華人民共和國徵詢意見那在這一點上面國防部有什麼要表達的嗎"},{"start":385.476,"end":391.005,"text":"我想我們跟美方之間對於軍售從一開始的一個聯繫"},{"start":393.819,"end":417.507,"text":"也就包括他們願意有初步的供售意願到後來有表示願意供售我們才拒以編列那我想這個就我們了解美方期間的態度沒有改變那我們也持續跟美方會進行溝通不是啊 可是川普確實他提到了他要跟這個習近平去談台灣的軍售談完才會做決定那這個有沒有違反六項保證的第二項保證嗎"},{"start":418.267,"end":445.832,"text":"我想六項保證裡面有一個重點就是說對於我們依據台灣關係法來進行對我們的防衛性武器的提供不會不會不會來說要不要取得這個中華人民共和國的同意我想在這一點上面我不認為美方的態度有任何的改變你覺得川普這樣講也不算是態度上有改變你覺得川普這樣講是在六項保證上面是符合能夠符合第二項的是嗎"},{"start":446.952,"end":466.16,"text":"沒有違反第二項那個川普的說法沒有違反第二項保證他跟中方那邊這邊的討論我現在沒有辦法進一步評論我只能夠說依循這個六項保證不會就我們的軍售的部分才取得中華人民共和國的同意"},{"start":466.24,"end":487.542,"text":"不是這是他公開講的嘛這個所有新聞然後在他的這個真實社群上面都有啊他上面寫的內容就是他強調說他正在跟習近平討論未來對台軍售的事情他沒有提到說這個要取得中華人民共和國的同意習近平不算是中華人民共和國就是沒有他並沒有說他要取得中華人民共和國的同意"},{"start":487.782,"end":501.528,"text":"討論OK 你的意思是這樣討論台灣的軍售OK不用取得對方同意就沒有違反六項保證我沒有辦法很清楚的說川普跟習近平的通話的內容我這是川普講的嘛說明的是根據六項保證"},{"start":504.349,"end":531.389,"text":"的內容來看 那個時間到了但是我對您的回覆是非常失望的因為當川普他講到說他要跟習近平討論對台灣軍售的事情我認為中華民國的立場在這件事情上就是要強硬的態度那不能因為他今天是美方然後我們就覺得說算了沒關係或者說不能去評論什麼的我覺得不是這樣子我們就應該要要求美方按照六項保證裡面的每一項而不是被他一一突破 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請部長是 政委部長好 我相信大部分的國人應該都很支持我們要增加台灣的安全 要提升國防我想這部分沒有問題可是我想說國防要強 監督也不能少因為我在想說我們花這麼多錢"},{"start":25.86,"end":51.721,"text":"說是民脂民膏那我們其實要真正提升我們要買到的是台灣的一個戰力而不是可能產生新的風險或者是買到一些新的爭議或者甚至一些買到一些可能的一些弊案我想這都是我們所不希望的那為什麼我們會覺得說之前我會覺得說支持軍購的部分那嚴審商購的部分嚴審商購的部分其實就是因為之前有很多可能疑似弊案的部分都在軍購"},{"start":52.842,"end":74.8,"text":"的過程當中 包括比方說服賣 就是就是裝修公司可以變成軍火商或者說很小的一個貿易公司他剛轉成做軍火交易的時候馬上就可以標到國防部的一個案子等等的一個情況我想這是我們會有點擔心的部分那因為今天其實我想說針對國防部所提出的一個報告"},{"start":76.101,"end":96.737,"text":"分成了從整個整體的防空及飛彈防禦還有聯合反登陸的部分還有聯合國土防衛跟持續能量整備的部分四個部分來講我覺得某個部分講得算清楚可是有幾個部分我還是要特別提到因為它裡面有一個地方特別提到說我們115年度的軍事投資預算要1616億元可是今年要"},{"start":98.078,"end":122.336,"text":"就是持續性的案子就有1532億元所以可以新增的額度只有84億元於是呢就是因為年度預算放不下所以要變成特別預算這是你們在報告裡面特別提到的部分那針對這部分的時候我再想一個情況是特別預算它肯定不是因為就是年度預算放不下就用特別預算來做那我們直接來看一下我們常態預算特別預算"},{"start":123.356,"end":145.39,"text":"這分得很清楚法定當中的時候常態預算是例行性可預見的特別預算是具有急迫性跟例外性的突發需求對不對那這當中的時候監督的狀態會不一樣所以我們就是正在特別條例當中我們很特別關心的是我們要買什麼東西我們要怎麼買然後誰來負責責任歸屬要怎麼去做那目前我們看到的狀態特別預算當中的時候呢"},{"start":146.611,"end":170.267,"text":"監督的機制事實上是相對低的那我知道很多委員特別提到如果說我們在很多委員都有提到說就是有關於所謂的空白授權的部分那我知道部長對這部分很介意你特別提到說我們條例的部分之後還有個特別預算這邊可以去把關可是事實上條例通過了之後我們在預算當中的時候坦白說它的監督的"},{"start":171.067,"end":173.269,"text":"強度就沒有那麼強所以這是為什麼我們從條例當中的時候我們就會非常的詳細的去看這個部分那國防部幕僚現狀的時候呢我們看到感覺很像是要用常態的預算來為特別預算這邊來做一個"},{"start":188.158,"end":214.788,"text":"常態預算不夠要用特別預算來補充那我們就會覺得他可能是透過特別預算的名義要來規避逐年審查那麼針對這個部分我想說我們針對短期急迫戰備需求跟中長期的建制這個部分就是很清楚的有提到一個部分因為我們現在這個特別條例把整個短期的急迫戰備需求跟中長期的建制全部都綁在一起那我個人認為這部分其實有可能是可以分開來的"},{"start":216.329,"end":234.691,"text":"短期急迫的我們用特別預算沒有問題大家都支持可中長期建制的部分的時候納入特別預算是不是適當我覺得這部分必須要好好去討論一下那在這當中的時候我發現報告當中很清楚提到了二十餘萬架的一個無人機艇的部分還有十四條的兵工廠這可能是軍備局這邊要用的部分"},{"start":235.451,"end":253.376,"text":"我們對於這個部分是不是要用特別預算整個去把它包裹起來我覺得這部分其實可能是有待商榷的地方可不可以請部長這邊簡單做一個回應因為我們認為短期的急迫戰備需求跟中長期的建制事項應該要分開來處理您怎麼看"},{"start":255.7,"end":281.026,"text":"我想就我們為什麼要10條的兵工產線的這個部分,涉及到我們相關的這個資源的一個配置的部分,是不是能請他們做一個報告?報告委員我們先簡要說明一下,就是14條產線的這個部分是因應敵情威脅陡峰,我們必須把我們的整個戰備存量從30天提高到120天,那未來除了這些"},{"start":282.19,"end":303.825,"text":"儲物量要提高之外未來因為我們訊號增加的關係也必須去有足夠的產線才能夠去做所以我們給這些產線建置的時間不會是一個長期因為這邊的時候跟彈藥有關的部分跟敵火有關那敵火目前就是印度跟中國這產量特別大那這個部分主席再給我30秒我把最後一個問題提出來那請部長事後在本辦公室做一個說明"},{"start":308.348,"end":336.054,"text":"因為你在報告第四頁當中特別提到了一個要有AI戰場管理系統這個部分要連結過去未來所有的防空針尖的系統那這個部分本席這邊他認為他這應該是個中心化的一個AI系統在第六頁當中這邊就提到一個要有一個去中心化的一個指管能力的一個AI輔助決策這兩個部分同時存在沒有問題可是本席對於這個部分因為"},{"start":337.174,"end":357.803,"text":"國防部的這個部分AI的體系當中的時候我們的通訊還有算力要怎麼去做處理然後另外我們這樣子的一個案子是要找美國來做還是要在國內去發包然後像針對這樣的一個部分它一個成長型的過程當中我們是不是用逐年去編列這樣的預算會比較妥適可以請部長做一個簡單的一個回應"},{"start":359.204,"end":383.406,"text":"如果時間有限的話,之後再到本辦公室來做一個說明對,我想第一個就是說,增建產線的部分,剛剛我們市長講的以外我們主要是考量到我們運用既有的生活基金它一年能夠用的四億多,這個是不足的所以我們才需要有一個快速來一次性有一個增建來擴增我們的戰備存量然後加強我們的韌性"},{"start":383.926,"end":395.64,"text":"那有關AI的相關的這些部分呢我們現在在報告裡面所提到的我們相關的這些包括戰場的管理系統AI的輔助決策系統等等的他牽涉到範圍確實是蠻廣的那這個部位的建設"},{"start":400.485,"end":417.374,"text":"國防部要建立自己的大圓模型建立我們自己的一個算力中心來處理這樣子的一個問題嗎我們沒有擺在這一次的特別預算裡面但是我想這個部分如果有必要的時候我們會納入我們的年度預算裡面做一個需求"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}