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相關的工會跟我說從上路過來到現在其實已經有九年沒有完全的沒有全方面的去調整過應該是說應該是這樣講就是跟這個健保是一樣啦就是有提案的時候那我們就調整那不然的話它是隨著那個那個"},{"start":87.307,"end":97.644,"text":"部長我跟你說其實有很多這個居服人員居服聯盟策略聯盟相關的工會其實都有反應長年沒有調整了那這幾年物價漲了多少"},{"start":98.752,"end":118.242,"text":"也漲了很多喔那這個部分是不是可以盡速去全面的檢討和調整服務給付的價格而且他們希望因為沒有定期的去檢討這個機制常常導致他們反映了你們也沒有想要調整或是認真的去研究要怎麼調整"},{"start":119.002,"end":131.491,"text":"所以這個部分我要把這個意見民間意見帶給你因為這個需求變得越來越多但是人員的待遇也是一樣並沒有獲得提升對這個可以理解因為這個"},{"start":134.213,"end":151.226,"text":"我們在這個健保方面它是有一個總額的成長率那成長率裡面會去考慮到CPI去調整它每年的幅度那但是這個長照的給付呢它是用這個10支10付1.1塊錢的方式在操作"},{"start":151.946,"end":179.942,"text":"那所以如果這個CPI我們可以考慮說如果你這個CPI的變動達到多少或者是定期多久來做一個檢討對 我覺得定期這件事情是要做的好不好我們來考慮部長可不可以答應本席趕快去研議跟相關的工會我請那個創造師來討論這個就是我本席的具體要求很明顯啦在這個簡報上第一個就是我要爭取這個看是不是依物價指數你每兩年檢討一次和調整然後"},{"start":181.054,"end":202.743,"text":"這個第二個是希望也趕快去建立所謂的造福員的分級跟進修的這個機制啊好這個部分我也希望可以鼓勵新人也可以讓資深造福員願意久任喔所以部長這兩個意見我要代表這個造福或是長照相關的作業人員來跟你爭取好不好您可不可以回去研議"},{"start":203.243,"end":224.81,"text":"好 這個我們研議一下你可不可以給我一個月之內給我明確的答覆你們的時間表是什麼好 我們來研議一下看看這個如何來融入到隨著這個物價的檢討機制部長那你可不可以給我一個時間表好不好 你可不可以給我一個時間表好不好就是說你這個研議的時間表是什麼這兩個具體的需求"},{"start":230.677,"end":237.262,"text":"好 那就一個月一個月內給本席因為我還會再找這些相關的工會來討論好不好好"},{"start":237.984,"end":263.538,"text":"那再來因為這個長照我也是進入細節來問喔部長在過去幾年其實全台的居扶機構的違規裁處啦查核不足啊甚至有很多系統資訊串聯不足的問題喔甚至有導致一些弊案的產生譬如說長照基金可能被詐領等等的我想要問一下這個你們的監察院之前有要求你們做建全國裁罰統一平台你們建了嗎"},{"start":266.14,"end":284.461,"text":"這個平台已經有了在這個今年會去完成系統的開發啦大概在年底之前就可以你們現在已經有了嘛對不對監察院去年的九月有說過你們要去做這個平台所以你說已經有了是不是我請那個市長說明一下"},{"start":285.001,"end":310,"text":"跟委員報告因為監察院去年有下這樣的一個意見那我們去年的那個新增的經費排不進去所以我們是在今年今年的新的案件裡面有把它放進去那整個按照期程的規劃在今年年底之前可以完成年底你確定嗎你要真的要到年底喔你先看一下其實你們現在就有所謂的裁罰平台了現在這個裁罰平台是連結地方政府而且是依法"},{"start":313.743,"end":342.65,"text":"依法要公開的好依法要公開是不是好我再進來給你看這是你們有的所以我們進來看一下幾個亂象你看看你光台北市政府你就設定了兩個連結然後台東的點進去就只是他們的新聞資訊頁根本也不是財閥網頁然後我們再看一下高雄的高雄市政府的點進去只有五筆資料然後這五筆資料有三筆它是違反食安法的違反食品廣告"},{"start":344.156,"end":359.953,"text":"違規的 還有時評宣傳廣告不實的那至今跟長照有關的裁罰公告案件也只有兩件喔所以請問一下你們在做什麼東西這個資訊平台請問食安也是你們的這個平台的公佈範圍嗎"},{"start":360.954,"end":380.615,"text":"那個可能連結有跑掉那跟委員報告當時我們希望就是因為案件會不斷的出來所以我們期待的是我們連結到地方的裁罰的一個專區那直接都是那你沒有去督導你好像是沒有督導我我隨便點了好幾個都是亂七八糟的根本就沒有根本就沒有所謂"},{"start":381.596,"end":400.567,"text":"真的需要的資訊在裡面是 也跟委員報告因為昨天我們其實是試著上我們的專區那我們這邊非常完整的其實都是長照的那總共有67案沒有 我剛剛才進了你們的我們剛才進了你的網站點進去就是現在這個樣子好 那我們會回去馬上這個已經是能力的問題了這個資訊的整理有很大的問題好 我們改善"},{"start":406.69,"end":431.865,"text":"對部長你知道這個問題嗎我想這個大概是過度性質的因為真正的會在年底之前完成那個那個才是真正完整的部長這是理由部長這是理由我跟你講這個東西你們要負督導責任你不是丟給地方政府他隨便舔然後你好像都不關你的事大家是依賴你中央政府的網頁看資訊的"},{"start":434.006,"end":455.644,"text":"所以我要跟你分享有兩個縣市一個是台中市一個是嘉義縣的社會局其實他們在公告的表格格式上面至少也做得很好一個是台中一個是嘉義縣他們違反了什麼法令違規者是誰他一看就知道那你們是不是應該要給各個縣市政府一個統一的表格統一的格式呢"},{"start":459.48,"end":473.329,"text":"這個跟委員說明我們未來在開發這個系統的時候就會讓它比較有標準式的現在這個只是急救章先讓它有連結的方式而已急救章過渡企業應該也有所作為那我問你你建構系統要多少錢"},{"start":475.718,"end":495.738,"text":"這個是配搭我們的系統因為這個整個是我們的照管系統所以這個只是裡面的一項資料好部長我跟你講坦白講現在各縣市裁罰跟公告的案件數真的也沒有到那麼多我們有去查很多縣市甚至是一件都沒有那也根據你們回傳給我的資料過去五年加總起來是78件"},{"start":497.179,"end":517.101,"text":"要公開的可能還更少所以到底有沒有認真在追蹤我先不問的情況之下在這麼少的資料的情況之下你這個過渡其實應該一張表格就可以搞定了還需要去外包什麼資訊工程嗎那當然你說你要整合其他的功能OK但是你這個過渡的部分你應該這樣處理就可以了不是嗎"},{"start":518.031,"end":545.657,"text":"跟委員說明一下大概這中間有一些資訊上的落差這78件只是在申報這個長照的幾戶上的虛符報案件而已那當然還有一些長照機構的一些違法的樣態那個都是在地方去裁罰所以長照師會再去彙整其他的這個違法樣態把它彙整起來這78件只是指的是在虛符報的案件而已"},{"start":545.677,"end":566.271,"text":"是啊,但是你整個加起來會有多少?你這個同意表格應該就是做得出來了。這個可能要大家了解一下才知道。不過未來是希望他查的時候是比較能夠一次性的,現在都是用連結的方式。對,所以你很亂,然後再來就是每個,你們沒有去督導。那所以我要再詢問一下,在這些裁罰裡面,其實連一件主動公告詐領案件的資訊都沒有。"},{"start":568.002,"end":591.229,"text":"這個是很嚴重了吧 這個應該要公告了吧就根據你們提供給我的資料喔屏東縣裁罰的案件近四年有十七二二七件就是十七件 兩件 兩件 七件喔那你知道你們的裁罰網頁裡面屏東的部分怎麼寫的嗎你們知道嗎 你有去看嗎 你沒讀到對不對屏東寫的是零件喔 屏東的地方政府給你的是零件"},{"start":592.182,"end":615.643,"text":"那甚至在台南的這個乍領5400萬的廠商呢民眾也不知道到底是哪一間所以我想要說的事情是這個公告標準在民眾的認知裡就是有問題的那你們內部有資訊流通的機制嗎或者是如果你在台南這個乍領了5400萬的這個外部廠商如果還或者是高雄的這個長照機構AB表"},{"start":617.445,"end":638.28,"text":"領的這些社會的詐領案在你們的平台上是完全沒有公告的而且站在民眾的立場今天不管詐領登錄不實或各種這些重大爭議其實只要未達公告門檻那其實你們而且你們資訊也沒有真的落實登錄上去其實民眾要怎麼辨別這個風險他怎麼有安心的說讓自己家中的長輩去接受這個服務的單位有沒有違規的紀錄而且甚至你現在的這個狀況就跟昨天我們討論的有點像"},{"start":645.245,"end":662.971,"text":"一家機構 特約單位 他如果這個長照人員在A縣市被查到有虛報 有這些問題 相關問題的時候B縣市是不能夠馬上查到的所以你就可能導致後面的事情發生喔所以我剛剛說的事情是 你現在說年底要建好這個系統 其實"},{"start":664.642,"end":678.401,"text":"你們這個是推託因為你在這個過程中你這一年發生了任何事情你們可以負責嗎所以這一年你其實剛剛我像我說的你就是告訴地方政府你的表格要有哪些內容回報回來的時候你要有人去審查"},{"start":679.881,"end":698.597,"text":"是不是可以做到至少你短期可以做到這件事情是跟委員說明齁那先跟委員釐清幾個觀念我們長福法裡面母法有授權裁罰的樣態才可以在我們現在要求他公開讓民眾可以查這我知道這個是前提這個是但是我剛剛已經講到很多那對對"},{"start":699.318,"end":703.001,"text":"那您舉的這個屏東的那個樣態他並不在我們的財閥的這個長福法授權可以去公開這樣的一個單位所以剛剛委員關心到說有一些這個業者我只是舉幾個例子給你聽但是我剛剛已經把你按進去這些連結看過了所以你現在是要用這個理由來說所以你們的平台做的"},{"start":720.533,"end":723.598,"text":"我們沒有說我們只是說現階段因為裁罰是地方的權責所以我們其實是希望裁罰是地方的權責但是資訊透明是你的責任你的得到責任也是需要及時的如果地方政府都要透過送到中央中央再來公佈的話"},{"start":737.757,"end":762.775,"text":"事實上會有時效的問題你還是沒有回答我的問題我剛剛說你給他們統一的表單格式然後他們報回來你要去督導這樣子你聽得懂我的意思嗎因為我感覺你一直在找很多理由喔我理解委員的意思委員希望我們能夠做得更精準能夠更完善你說讓他們回報問題是你說你依法讓他們回報結果他回來給你一個連結難道你都不用查嗎"},{"start":763.716,"end":785.008,"text":"難道你都不用去看他連結到底合不合理嗎那每個縣市回來的表的不同然後資訊還有這種違反食品安全的違反食安法那是你要的資訊嗎當然不是都不是對不對那你跟我扯這個對嗎其實一剛開始連結都是正確的那我相信是地方政府可能又有一些異動然後沒有讓我們知道所以早自這個連結發生現在委員看到的這種樣態那我們會來改善"},{"start":789.497,"end":799.492,"text":"好 部長所以我要表達的事情是其實長照的需求越來越高那今年的預算也高達了一千一百多億但是現在發生的就是管理漏洞也會越來越多"},{"start":800.444,"end":819.438,"text":"因為根本預算你根本在執行量當然就是需求很大所以你在這個人力資源管理上面甚至是你連這個管理這樣子資訊的表格都出了問題有人去造假就能夠領錢變成名副其實的Excel Pay他就可以隨便上網中央跟你申請然後到地方再另外拿錢炸領了五千多萬"},{"start":820.926,"end":833.318,"text":"這個我相信大多數在這個長照領域服務的人都是本於愛心本於熱情而且都是兢兢業業在做這些事情但是你現在管理不當就是讓不孝業者有機會去鑽漏洞"},{"start":836.758,"end":853.723,"text":"請部長在年底出來前你現在馬上請你們去做這件事情把這個資訊的漏洞都把它補起來然後也要讓跨縣市的整合垂直整合都要可以清除資訊透明可不可以這個資訊的揭露的部分我們來這個檢討改善"},{"start":855.973,"end":873.65,"text":"所以我第一個要你給我就是具體的承諾一個是一個月內可以上線可搜尋的全國採訪查詢功能的完善的這個資訊然後要有一個檢討的配套機制也就是說它上線的時候是不是你在資訊平台上就要有一個log說有更新的資料所以你就要去核對"},{"start":874.491,"end":890.184,"text":"他給的資料對不對這個在資訊上很簡單它不是一件很難的事第二個是你三個月內要趕快建立這個跨縣市的裁罰預警的通報機制跨縣市裁罰的時候你應該讓地方政府彼此知道不要A縣市罰了B縣市不知道"},{"start":891.405,"end":908.413,"text":"第三個是你們在這個本會期前也可以提出你這個所謂長照集合人力的補足方案因為剛剛所謂的很多問題是集合的問題對不對有人可能通報了你們沒有辦法集合沒有足夠人力集合所以導致有這樣的漏洞所以這個部分希望"},{"start":909.727,"end":930.336,"text":"包含昨天我講的兒少的質詢你們CRC的採訪平台這些資訊其實是同一件事這顯示衛福部在資訊管理治理上面的能力是有待加強我們不要講得太難聽你們資訊治理能力真的要加強好不好好最後我還是要邀請一下我們的這個請石部長回座我要請一下洪森漢部長"},{"start":939.81,"end":944.815,"text":"六人好部長好部長這個最後還是要請教一下部長其實針對現在重啟核能成為討論的議題話題"},{"start":949.693,"end":976.521,"text":"好議題熱點那有不少的學者投出投書投書指出因為非核家園是民進黨一貫的方向那核能的人才伴隨現在AI產業興起然後能源重新這個檢討那世界爭搶也造成了台灣核能的相關專業人才出走或者轉行現在要重新培育迫切急需加速喔甚至投書也提出勞動部應該建立"},{"start":978.662,"end":998.36,"text":"這個核能級的特殊技術人才培訓專案所以這部分呢勞動部也有不可或缺的角色包含第一個是技術標準的提升譬如說現有的焊接啦配管啦非破壞檢測等國家技術式的檢定那可能需要針對所謂核能級的高規格需求"},{"start":998.9,"end":1019.926,"text":"跟核安會合作開發更高等的培訓課程這是第一個技術標準提升第二個是人才缺口的補足所以面對核能人才這個斷層勞動部需要透過執訓體系加速培養機電還有移控等基礎工程人力來才能支撐核電廠的興建或者是重啟工程"},{"start":1020.606,"end":1039.876,"text":"第三個是移工與專業外籍人才的審核勞動部負責核發外國專業人才的工作許可若需要引進國外的核能工程團隊勞動部需要配合經濟部簡化或優化相關的申請流程請問一下部長你對這個方向有做規劃或研議的打算嗎"},{"start":1040.896,"end":1070.146,"text":"根本說明關於這些相關的這個專業技能的人才當然我們都我們當然願意來跟目的世界主管機關當然看他們有沒有相關的類似需求有沒有我們要配合協助的地方那這也不是只是在核能的部分而是綜合的這些專技的人才我們都會跟目的世界主管機關來做討論看他們有沒有這個需求因為有些人才的訓練他有他一定的體系跟他一定的這個相關的要求"},{"start":1070.526,"end":1082.498,"text":"副部長配合是被動的現在我們看到賴清德總統願意起義來歸檢討能源政策那你們除了被動配合你們勞動部有沒有主動規劃有沒有相關的時間表因為培訓人才並不是現在說要就馬上有的"},{"start":1087.763,"end":1092.925,"text":"這個培訓人才是3到5年你等到定案還來得及嗎會有一些專業的人才其實是會要來自目的事業主管機關提出他們的需求比方說勞動部絕對不會去培訓醫師"},{"start":1108.62,"end":1136.198,"text":"討論部不會去...醫師有他...所以委員我說的是說醫師有他這個養成的體系專業養成的體系討論部不會去培訓醫師這個部分嗎?那我當然可以來跟目的世界主管一般討論他們有沒有在人才需求這個人才上面他們要怎麼來去做克服這部分可以討論部長我想這個是國家發展國家安全還有能源安全的相關重要的議題這個社會大家都很關心喔"},{"start":1136.838,"end":1155.215,"text":"所以我才會問出這樣的問題請你們回去跟相關部會去演繹去問他們有沒有需要你趕快提出這些培訓的包含技術提升標準還有包含人才缺口有沒有需要補足包含著移工跟專業外籍人才有沒有需要審核這三件事情要提醒部長"},{"start":1156.076,"end":1181.115,"text":"像這樣子的專業的特定的專業的領域的確就是要是目的社會主管評估他的需求包括他人才養成的方式那這個部分我們第一個會尊重目的社會主管機關那如果有他們有需要我們幫忙的地方我們當然願意來去做我們可以做的所以部長會願意配合他們就是培養就是看他們提出這個相關的需求然後他們提出你就會配合就是我剛才舉例"},{"start":1182.945,"end":1203.95,"text":"醫生可能很多地方現在也覺得沒有我只是問說那如果今天勞動部會來培訓醫生今天經濟部和河安會需要這些人才他主動跟你提你配合嗎當然我們可以一起討論一起討論那你會配合嗎我們會一起討論看需求跟彼此的分工所以意思就是說你身為勞動部長你會配合他們然後彼此分工跨部會之間本來就有很多業務需要一起討論"},{"start":1204.99,"end":1207.851,"text":"OK 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大家都很關心就是最近因為這個中東戰爭的影響然後這個塑膠的原料上漲那塑膠原料上漲就影響到很多了嘛那譬如說有這一個醫藥用的這個塑膠手套類拋棄式器那個液材也受到影響"},{"start":42.583,"end":57.27,"text":"然後呢 塑膠類的商品呢 這個商品呢 這個有上週的競價 漲價兩到三成那這個據經濟部的這個說法啦 他說 中油說 原料的供應沒有短少"},{"start":58.45,"end":79.285,"text":"但是呢這個產發署卻說呢有一些呢比較中盤的經銷商有一點點在心態上面延緩出貨或是有囤貨的現象我不曉得這個代理主委知道這個現象我們有去了解了已經有去了解了今天這兩天媒體出來之後才去了解還是之前就有去了解了我們聽到有這樣的新聞以後我們就進行去了解"},{"start":80.146,"end":108.555,"text":"了解是一回事有沒有採取什麼樣的動作但因為我們的查核的重點是在於他們有沒有聯合進行價格的操作啦哄抬是一件事情但是這個哄抬是不是出自於彼此合意的哄抬那是我們調查的重點所以我們有在觀察這個市場那另一方面我們也配合經濟部目前正在進行全面的盤查所以假設這個過程當中我們有發現一些可能有聯合的行為這個聯合包含聯合囤積聯合拒絕出貨所以如果市政顯示有這樣的情況的話我們一定會調查"},{"start":109.235,"end":129.345,"text":"那你們是調查哪一些比如說行業、產業類別你們怎麼去做調查的可不可以再講個具體一點我目前是針對這個塑膠這個產業裡面不同的塑膠類型它有分上游、中游、下游啊對啊你們可不可以有一個具體的說法就是說你們有去了解到底是怎麼樣去了解法"},{"start":129.605,"end":144.276,"text":"我們會瞭解它整個的生產線上下游我們都會去瞭解原料 因為中游說原料沒有缺啊中下游這些產品不應該受到影響啊這當然就是我們後續要去瞭解是不是到底問題出在什麼地方所以這個為什麼我們會跟經濟部會繼續跟經濟部那邊來配合那所以咧 哪時候會知道這個結果咧"},{"start":152.998,"end":158.399,"text":"因為調查證據需要一點時間那這個調查證據完了以後經過分析我們還要經過委員會的討論所以那個時程上會比較難以控制一點不是一般啊因為現在就是說這個中東戰事好那川普說可能到這個4月9號他認為是一個Date Line但是我們也不知道那至少可能還有兩個禮拜的時間那這兩個禮拜的時間可能會"},{"start":177.083,"end":192.046,"text":"對於這個消費者來講 目端消費者來講就會受到影響對很多的這一些這個中小學需要用到的一些廠商比如說那個醫院也受到影響啊那甚至很多賣這個手搖飲之類可能也會受到影響啊那所以你們的這個調查時間大概多久可以出來呢"},{"start":193.067,"end":217.726,"text":"當我們調查到市政 我們進行分析到底有沒有合意 當然送委員這其實有時候時程上會有一點通常啦 通常你們都調查不曉得 我們盡快在三個月內完成可以嗎三個月內完成喔需要這麼久的時間喔對 因為聯合行為的市政的判斷有時候不是那麼的容易就是到底他們業者之間是不是有勾結那個要有更多的市政來做一些推論啦好"},{"start":218.516,"end":244.758,"text":"那就等你們的這個報告然後這兩天有一個新聞那主委應該也知道了就是說那個Grab他來收購這一個Fupenda的事情然後呢這個他收購了這個 打算收購Fupenda但是呢這個Uber又是Grab的最大的一個股東就會變成這樣一件事情那其實在2024年的時候也是有這個Uber Eats要這個"},{"start":246.099,"end":261.414,"text":"併購這個Fupenda那後來你們說這個市佔率過高有這一個不利益的因素所以呢你們就沒有讓他通過嘛對不對那現在看起來這一個Fupenda他又是另尋出路出來的那對這件事情我們卓偉的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":262.166,"end":277.266,"text":"當然我們分析的原則跟上位的架構是一樣的但是這兩個案子最大的不同是上一個案子結合以後變九成市場超級大的一個企業那這個案子基本上是另外一個企業來頂Fu Panda所以市場結構並沒有產生過大的變化可是"},{"start":277.947,"end":296.049,"text":"Uber也是這個啊Grabber它是最大股東啊所以繞來繞去還是會變成這一個這個投一家的意思啊因為現在案子還沒進來但等案子進來以後我們的分析重點這個也是我們會去研析的一個重點就是那個實質控股的關係對於整個市場競爭Grabber它的最大股東應該是Uber才對啊"},{"start":296.83,"end":305.22,"text":"對 但是這是13.5對啊那這個部分到底會後續影響到市場競爭到什麼程度這個就是我們後續會會去考慮啦會去考慮這個Uber是國內最大的股市實質的控制對阿 那就跟之前是一樣嘛我覺得有點是這一個"},{"start":313.809,"end":341.506,"text":"故意來這樣子這個又換了一個一家公司進來但是Uber它還是這家Grab最大的股東我們會去看這個13.5到底實質上它產生的對那個Grab這是一個第二個就是說這個Grab它有這個中資至少我們看到資料就是有這個中國滴滴跟謹順那所以未來這個如果這家公司要進來的話那這部分是不是也要受到你們的這個考慮"},{"start":343.047,"end":362.366,"text":"我們不會考慮到這個資金來源這應該是投審會投審會那邊投審會那邊會去處理就對了那你們就是考慮到說那到底這個未來這個Uber它實質影響到這個國內市場的競爭市場的競爭在台灣的市場競爭他們有來做申請嗎還沒有 目前還沒有送件目前還沒有送件就對了好 我知道好 謝謝 謝謝大家謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167958","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167958","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4eb88b13b620ce30f71db4e8dc12ee0255144d5468a2b72bfd1027fd842694b5725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:03:59 - 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謝謝主席請陳主委謝謝主委"},{"start":21.756,"end":40.904,"text":"我有看到你們有做的這個聲明是人工智慧的一個競爭法議題的一個聲明那我首先要肯定我想這個部分諸位上任也積極在做這樣的事情那這個對未來的台灣也相當重要AI包括這些的都是未來全世界的一個趨勢"},{"start":42.185,"end":68.601,"text":"台灣也非常重要那但是有幾個我也想要再跟主委這邊提醒的包括你的很多的部分其實事後管制的部分他會遇到很多的問題是已經發生了而後面的處理所以這塊可能也未來也希望公平的我們去思考怎麼樣在事前能夠有一些預防措施而不是到了事後的時候有一些巨大的已經產生了之後巨大的影響產生了對市場營造成影響之後"},{"start":70.382,"end":88.351,"text":"幾乎也是兩手一攤無法解決所以希望未來能夠再請主委也思考怎麼樣在前端的部分做一些處理包括甚至於在變相併購的定義界定的部分甚至於人才的部分怎麼去做更清楚的一個界定讓這件事情更明確那另外還有當然"},{"start":89.011,"end":111.94,"text":"台灣也是具有相當潛力那未來這個本土的數據跟整個算力的相關的部分怎麼樣去做更有效我們也希望未來這一塊公平有更多一些方向跟整個前瞻性的一些做法主委要不要回應一下跟委員報告一下謝謝委員的肯定那委員提到的問題都是我們持續會去觀察跟精進的那在我們的徵詢意見回收的部分其實有兩個共識"},{"start":113.22,"end":139.048,"text":"是所有回收意見都支持的其中一個就是說目前的深層式AI甚至整個AI還在發展的初期那背後的動態發展怎麼樣甚至很難預測所以他強烈建議公平回收在目前現在採取低度介入的態度這個就是為什麼我們會覺得說我們還是秉持一個比較事後來監管但是並不表示我們就完全不完全排除那個事前的一些做法我們可能會去看看整個市場的演變"},{"start":139.588,"end":164.182,"text":"是不是已經達到很明顯的就是有巨頭在壟斷那也許某一種程度的事先的介入是有必要好這個也跟我們當然面臨到更大的挑戰是我們面對到中國對我們的這個一個專制威權的國家對我們的一個影響那這個部分就其他的不見得民主國家不是遇到這個問題但是在一個威權國家發展他的這個AI過程的時候就很多這塊導致我們必須要"},{"start":164.522,"end":190.505,"text":"很謹慎 如果這個是未來AI是整個長遠的一個國際上的一個趨勢 也是台灣重大的一個未來方向的話 那這一塊可能在未來這塊思考可能要提早來做一些因應是 謝謝韋好 那我們來看一下其實整個在全世界都在發全都在主權AI這塊在推動 所以剛剛也特別提到因為我們跟中國這邊包括語文都是用中文的 甚至於中國他"},{"start":190.925,"end":207.179,"text":"我們做過去有看到非常例子他們在他們的AI裡面有設定了很多的一些特定的一些部分那這個未來怎麼樣避免他對台灣之間產生的影響我覺得這塊也值得各部會當然也包括公民會審慎去思考這個也是未來我們要面對一個課題好不好 主委這個也是也請回應一下"},{"start":211.483,"end":231.785,"text":"這個部分我們在政策聲明裡面有特別談到就是說AI的競爭議題當然本會是主管機關但是有很多的大家關切的議題未必是競爭可以去處理的就像委員所談到要發展主權AI這個比較偏向於國家的產業發展政策對我知道蘇法部或是政府有些思考這可能會有一些補貼"},{"start":232.466,"end":235.247,"text":"那接下來我請教一下之前我也談過很多次了蘋果稅的部分在2021年的時候也已經立案了調查了那事實上這個部分主委有更新的一個進度嗎"},{"start":256.299,"end":274.733,"text":"這個案子其實我們有送過委員會那委員會討論的結果覺得有些點還必須要進一步調查特別是最近又有幾個國家針對這個議題有做出了一些採除那我們覺得可能這些國家採除的理由我們必須要進一步去了解一下目前還在進一步的調查當中"},{"start":275.633,"end":286.778,"text":"因為已經過了三年了我們說這個部分可能要儘快有一些的出來是 我們會儘快出來主委 預定什麼時候可以有一個初步的出來"},{"start":289.332,"end":304.46,"text":"我們大概現在預定是大概六月六月啦就是因為上半年會出來我們希望有一個初步的出來因為其他的世界國家也都已經有了相關的這也是確保我們的相關的權益啦是好好謝謝再來我請教一下其實在很多的一些"},{"start":306.221,"end":321.833,"text":"零售業者之後其實他有出現了一些消費者的爭議的問題然後這我舉個例子像這個高大鮮乳他兩罐的售價是那個但是他在他的標示上面特價卻是99這個在消費者之間其實有很多的一些"},{"start":323.014,"end":343.929,"text":"傳的訊息 我也希望公平委更多勢力去介入 去輔導 去了解這些涉及是否有涉及到相關的不實的問題 甚至有些是疏忽還是他的不實的 甚至是他的行銷策略上的問題 這個恐怕也都需要更多的關心和介入 才能避免去影響到消費者的權益"},{"start":344.629,"end":360.775,"text":"這部分我們都有密切在觀察這個有立案了嗎 像這樣的案子有立案嗎目前還沒有啦好 我請也立案了好不好我也有立案因為現在很多消費者是習慣到這些大型的零售業者或賣場去採購相當很多的產品那這樣的行為已經發生過好幾次了"},{"start":361.275,"end":384.518,"text":"很多消費者他不見得知道他可能看出很便宜99塊買了但刷的時候他也沒有仔細看那個金額但是事實上有可能就是貴的金額了那我覺得這一塊要去約束不管你是不舒服的還甚至你是不實的都應該要更加的謹慎小心這也是在維護這個消費者權益也在維護整個市場同時今天也是在保護到這個店家的商譽啦"},{"start":384.718,"end":411.663,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為這個是涉及到產品標示的問題所以這也許也會涉及到部會之間執掌也請你們再去了解我想這樣的問題都應該去協助讓更確保這樣的事情不再發生另外商品來源有很多不實現在其實大家很多都利用電商來採購相當多的一些產品那像看到很多幾乎都是你以為是在台灣的製造或出貨事實上你在訂購的時候才發現原來是他從中國大陸那邊過來的"},{"start":412.723,"end":440.095,"text":"那我覺得這些都是涉及到不實的問題甚至有很多的產品的問題也本身都有問題所以來了以後品質是非常差的那等到你後面還要再脫外還是什麼的時候其實都有很多的困擾世界不那麼容易所以我也希望在跟公民軍這邊也跟這些電商的平台要把這些更確立起來如果你是台灣做的或台灣的就是台灣如果你是在其他的外中國大陸或其他國外的那也要標示清楚那讓消費者不要受到誤導我這也是"},{"start":442.236,"end":455.684,"text":"電商平台網路廣告我們都一直持續在監控那這個標示不實的部分是我們有處分過幾大案那這個案子有沒有這樣的案子有沒有立案在調查我們曾經有處罰過有處罰過那如果處罰過了還有這樣問題請你們要持續的再去要求再去處罰好不好如果還有這樣問題這不應該發生啦因為現在的電商越來越多這些消費的爭議這應該要確保消費者的權益是是"},{"start":468.311,"end":482.928,"text":"那其實韓國也有對於電商的相關不法來重罰那現在也有這個購屋的平台裡面開始的他把很多的一些免費補貼甚至於一些相關的讓賦予了"},{"start":483.869,"end":503.851,"text":"讓這些賣家有更大的一個壓力我覺得這個也都要請公平化去思考怎麼樣避免這樣的事情因為有些電商已經有越來越獨大甚至於他有市場上的一個效果獨大獨佔的一個效果如果我們不能夠有效確保買方跟賣方的權益的時候那可能電商會不斷去"},{"start":504.952,"end":522.689,"text":"去用更強力這個我也希望這件事情公平又要去了解也要去介入好不好不要讓獨大的電商去影響到整個不管是市場或者是消費者的一切權益有關電商的這一塊我目前都有持續在監控跟了解那甚至假設行為有檢舉有涉及到不法"},{"start":523.49,"end":546.649,"text":"我們都還要在公平法裡面去進行這個調查好這請主委再重申最後一個吼那個不動產的交易裡面其實有些的這個我也不知道他是標出來什麼一坪竟然只有0.04萬他應該是把整個總的全部我也希望像這樣的問題但不應該發生好不好如果有發生這樣的問題他不是一個不實我會有資料給你們如果這樣的不實的狀況還是要去"},{"start":548.01,"end":561.108,"text":"提醒他們那如果該開法就開法就是不應該讓這樣看起來總價感覺沒有什麼很大的但是他在評數單價上超便宜超低的這有可能會產生一定的問題如果具體事實我們就願意公平好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝好謝謝賴榮榮委員"}]}},{"id":"167957","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167957","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4ea2890e1c4b9ffdec1db4e8dc12ee0255144d5468a2b72bfd543d4706013f98b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"10:53:36 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我們請這個陳主委陳主委好 那早上我聽了很多我覺得你的挑戰是越來越大尤其碰到我們這種科技利益 你可能會更難過一點"},{"start":25.526,"end":51.531,"text":"那第一個問題這個傳統問題還是要先幫忙問一下因為剛剛委員很多問了很多那我想我就不再贅述基本上來講我倒是覺得不管你是這個塑料農產包材這些的漲價就是我延緩出貨形成這樣子的我買不到這個塑膠袋這裡頭還要擴展到醫材的問題"},{"start":54.992,"end":77.819,"text":"另外包含剛剛我聽到這些的土方之亂這些我想都是民生或者是業者的痛所以我這邊我就不再贅述那我希望主委的話就是儘快主動出擊就是說有時候你應該也可以學學金管會因為等到他發函去然後廠商再把資料調回來那都太慢了"},{"start":78.579,"end":102.821,"text":"苦民所苦你就去喝喝咖啡喝喝可樂也可以就你用什麼方式去讓民眾有這個感受我是覺得施政者我們作為一個政府要的事情那我就要跟主委討論的是說當我們這個數位經濟AI這樣子的一個技術進來的時候其實你的dictation就是你的偵測"},{"start":104.778,"end":126.717,"text":"法規這其實這個難度越來越高所以我是覺得你們可能要這個逢高計軌日夜不停的一個工作我現在跟各位談的一個問題是說當然我們在公平會不管是寡占聯合的漲價等等這些議題可是呢以前人的話呢你可能還會透過什麼電話"},{"start":128.72,"end":138.318,"text":"透過訊息 透過信件 對不對甚至像以前我們在這個科技業的話 面板 對不對在托拉斯的這個法案 反托拉斯這個法案的時候"},{"start":139.421,"end":167.791,"text":"但是現在到了這個數位經濟的一個時代來講的話其實我是透過我的程式碼透過我的模型透過我的數據那這樣子來講的話再把它分成說我是人為去控制還是我這個模型或者是我在學習數字的時候我就達到聯合的拱斷的地步我覺得你這個難度是更高所以我是覺得說在法規上我看完你們的那些的報告你也許認為"},{"start":169.151,"end":186.843,"text":"現有的法規可能可以處理但我覺得應該是不太會一樣所以我想是提醒主委在這件事那太難的原因是什麼其實也就是說我們現在的話控制的核心是我的數據就是我的資料我的演算法"},{"start":187.677,"end":210.442,"text":"另外的話我價格的制定我也不是用人怎麼樣看法因為我就機器奈米級的速度啪就搞定了然後你的那個共謀的證據也不是這些的信件他可能是到我系統的log對不對我的transaction我的交易甚至我要去比對你的call比對上我API的串聯這整個走下去的時候其實不是人可以處理的"},{"start":210.982,"end":226.602,"text":"所以你的工具你的這個法規這個我覺得你們都要拘謹我現在先問一個簡單問題在你們所有的委員當中具有資工跟資訊背景人工智能到底有多少委員在委員的成員當中是沒有"},{"start":227.683,"end":245.956,"text":"所以我是覺得也許你可以建議啦這個是值得越來越多我相信他會占到未來以後的一半以上不過我們有個叫做經濟跟資訊市場那個裡面就有一些電腦跟資訊方面的人對 因為我覺得他這個難度是更高道高一尺 魔高一丈所以我就提醒"},{"start":247.076,"end":269.858,"text":"因為我今天要跟主委分享討論就是說我們要站在更前面一點去看這件事情那我這一塊來講的話主要是說整個AI介入進來的時候其實最左邊介入程度是低也就是說我們兩個共謀完之後然後我們去把它達成漲價合一之後我去調參數所以我們就聯合漲"},{"start":270.879,"end":299.505,"text":"那這個當中AI介入程度 因為AI只是我的工具而已我的這個程式是我的工具但是越往234右邊去越來越難比如說我們來看第二種的類型第二種的類型指的就是我們講的HUB的這個SPOC的模式基本上來講的話呢我們這所有的人都去買相同的模型 買相同的這些的演算法來控制我市場的銷售跟這個售價的行為可是"},{"start":300.995,"end":321.903,"text":"說實在的我們這些競爭者剛好是買同樣的東西那結果呢我們用的這個同樣的第三方的演算法達成相同的這樣子的聯合的拱斷的價格那這個在美國是有案例的就像這一個RealPage房租的AI的定價案所以像現在來講他可能都使用RealPage的AI"},{"start":323.866,"end":342.799,"text":"然後結果他們都是說看起來這同一個區域差不多類型所以下去之後價格是高度的一致而且不合理那這個時候來講當然房客去告房東房東才會說我們怎麼都是用相同的然後再慢慢賠償台灣有沒有這樣的問題"},{"start":344.06,"end":361.95,"text":"跟委員報告一下剛剛委員點出來正確就是那四個模型這個國際組織也都在從那四個模型去分析那的確沒錯前面兩個在傳統的架構底下比較可以處理但是等到你到了自主學習的時候那個難度就非常高可是這個還沒到右邊這個還在第一我了解我了解這個在台灣有沒有所以"},{"start":363.431,"end":384.051,"text":"就台灣有沒有發生我們最近剛發布的AI的那個政策聲明我們從回收回來的意見多數業者是認為還沒有出現這樣的現況但是我們持續有在注意這個問題那你的持續是用什麼樣的偵測的工具還是用什麼樣的方式我們有網路上偵測那個價格波動是不是有出現一致那這很難"},{"start":384.831,"end":402.141,"text":"因為你沒有去比如說我們現在都是用這個隨便亂講我都用591出租房可是591出租房的那個模型或定價的模式他假設給我建議的時候那他就有可能會形成這樣的方式那你又不可能去說591出租房你怎麼把他的模型演算法這個東西"},{"start":403.246,"end":427.483,"text":"所以跟委員報告一下所以我在之前有談到就是說公平會未來針對AI數位這塊市場必須要趕快強化數位執法能力這個就是我擔心的問題那還有很多比如說像這個就是第三種的類型我用的是CHAP GBP你用的是GIMMA它用的是GLOCK甚至有人用不同的模型但是我們用的是相同的開源的這樣子的資料"},{"start":429.15,"end":441.282,"text":"數據對不對比如說我這是所有的房市價格公開的交易資訊我都是所有這個地區的所得稅的什麼這些申報的資料結果這些模型去學這些數據之後推出一致的結論那這種東西未來"},{"start":444.685,"end":472.026,"text":"會怎麼防治所以還是回歸到剛剛談的就是說我們可能對 forensic就是那個數位的那個實證的解析解剖那一塊對所以我是說你在工具證據政策對吧它全部是另外一套因為你整個證據的保全跟dictator跟dictation這是完全不同那我再附帶講一點就是說目前以我們的法規來講對於特別是演算法定價是不是構成聯合行為目前我們的法規是有一些不足的地方"},{"start":472.626,"end":493.714,"text":"就是因為我們的聯合行為只限於水平的競爭者所以剛剛委員談到軸扶式的卡特就是共同使用一個那他們可能都不在不同的市場當中所以從法律的要件看起來他們可能不會構成聯合行為所以我們目前的修法已經準備要那個條文修正就是不限於水平我現在都是提醒因為我走的比較前瞻一點因為這種東西我覺得未來只會越來越多"},{"start":496.335,"end":514.615,"text":"所以身為一個科技律師我覺得這件事情會對你公平而造成很大的問題當然還有自主學習的部分最後我耽誤點著這樣的時間來看這件事情就是說在這裡頭我們的併購我想各位委員前面都吞了很多那我覺得這有兩個層次第一個"},{"start":515.936,"end":545.456,"text":"Grab的後面還是有一些的滴滴出行物資當然這個可能不歸你管這可能是投審會那邊所以你跟投審會經濟部的投審會可能還要再去合作這是第一道第二道比較擔心的事情剛剛很多委員都講過我透過間接的這樣子的一個行徑來達到這個不管是剝削這個我們的外送員或者是商家的這個漲價對不對就是定價把它偏高收費偏高的行為但是我比較擔心說如果撇開這些都是合法"},{"start":546.156,"end":566.762,"text":"那因為Uber又是Grab的股東他們兩個之間的模型甚至模型不同也沒關係數據是去做交換的你也是查不到但是他這樣透過一個獨立的個體但是他中間是透過模型跟數據暗通款曲這個我覺得你的難度是更高"},{"start":567.577,"end":586.08,"text":"所以我相信這個證據的調查是有一定的挑戰度不過在證據調查之前的前提就是說假設這個它真的有辦法影響未來的Grab的營運模式那在它的影響底下那個13.5%的股權會影響到什麼程度有沒有導致價格大幅的上漲這個是我們在分析的時候一開始會先確定的"},{"start":586.46,"end":614.903,"text":"可是我覺得還是人為啦我覺得還是從技術的角度來講因為畢竟他還是占董事啊董事的話比方說你用我的數據我們兩個交換一下對不對大家來分析客戶的行為定價這常會發生這當然有可能只是說對陸同委員所講的那個證據的蒐集對我們來講會是個提示所以我們會持續不斷我再提醒那最後就是說反正我寫在這邊我希望你們將來對這些的政策定價法規那你會採取這項措施跑前面一點然後主動一點這樣子"},{"start":615.984,"end":616.105,"text":"好嗎?好 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你的政策目標是什麼我跟委員說明 第一個我們其實在這個政策裡面最重要的幾個目標第一個是希望讓勞工 尤其雙薪家庭的勞工可以減少離職 安心上班 這是第一個第二個是家庭減壓"},{"start":324.582,"end":337.058,"text":"有人因為12歲的小孩以下會離職的就是女性欸 沒聽過是男性啦幾乎很少啦 爸爸有 很少啦大多數都是女性啦"},{"start":338.137,"end":344.802,"text":"所以你不要講說雙薪家庭 你要講說女性女性的勞參率大幅下降托盟已經講過N變了我們也講過N變 兩個階段一個是小孩 一個是就救孩子再來就是職場的第二個滑坡就是救孫 把孩子帶走全部都是救孩子而這數十年來我們把"},{"start":366.059,"end":379.678,"text":"這個照顧的政策這樣一步一步整個公民社會整個台灣的政府一步一步的就把這些照顧的責任再往良好的公共政策把照顧公共化"},{"start":380.868,"end":397.912,"text":"我們透過育兒的政策照顧假的政策留職停薪的政策然後未來也有很多人在講要有薪無薪的照顧假等等配套一直進來然後你們不是在什麼育兒補貼嗎政府的現金補貼不是也都進來了嗎"},{"start":401.693,"end":416.082,"text":"我們一步一步在往這個公共照顧化公共化照顧的方向在前進而你今天這個政策其實在鼓勵大家說不用了有錢的就自己買照顧家庭化付費化然後自己買單所以整個整個照顧的政策走回頭路啊"},{"start":430.08,"end":438.345,"text":"對不對我可以說明嗎你的政策目標是在大開30年往公共化的照顧政策的反方向咧我們比方說育嬰留庭的彈性已日傾現在也是我們大力正在推動的未來也希望能夠擴大研議現在很多如果如果外籍邦傭進來我請教你他可不可以顧小孩"},{"start":460.165,"end":488.042,"text":"他當然可以輔助性的會參與一些小孩的這個照料餵飯等等這都很有可能的你們的社家屬衛福部的社家屬張美美副署長說外傭只會是家長的幫手家長在的時候是由家長負責照顧責任啊你們不是說要減輕女性的勞動力勞工的這個家庭負擔嗎啊家庭在我都上完班下班了累死了我要怎麼顧"},{"start":489.571,"end":499.378,"text":"以增加女性 留住女性勞參率為前提去開放然後你說家長在的時候就要自己顧這樣子有減輕女性的負擔嗎我下班了家長沒有上班大家就送到這個托嬰或是保母或是托育機構或是學校"},{"start":515.049,"end":543.446,"text":"那我下班了就自己顧下班再來的時候就回來很累還要顧所以就很累但你們現在說這個政策是只要你在家顧小孩這個幫庸是不能顧的這不是到底是要顧還是不能顧我們不是說不能顧其實應該是它的確是一個比較輔助性的可是的確我們在這個評估的過程我們也看到有蠻多不同的樣態我現在就是說你們在這裡都是睜眼說瞎話其實都是全部交給外傭顧啦"},{"start":545.376,"end":552.241,"text":"老實說就全部丟給外傭誰不知道現在長照制度裡面說是要照顧失能的誰不知道家事啦 煮飯全部都是那個外籍移工要做大家都知道 你說自己家庭幫傭不是照顧小孩的騙笑的嘛 沒可能嘛可是我要講你們不是把這個照顧公共化的政策走回頭路而已你們還把顧小孩連保母顧小孩都要正照制度"},{"start":574.776,"end":575.858,"text":"你連顧小孩都認為不需要專業連語言都不需要專業了"},{"start":581.844,"end":607.352,"text":"顧小孩 外傭顧他的語文能力 連這個都不需要顧及了然後呢 保姆要政造制度你們也不用了依據兒少權法保姆居家室托育服務提供者應向各地方政府主管機關辦理登記然後沒有的話是不行的 不能顧小孩的現在是外籍幫傭 外傭就可以顧小孩"},{"start":608.695,"end":612.357,"text":"這個是連照顧小孩、托育制度都在走回頭路欸我現在講說你們有做出兒童最佳利益的評估嗎在這裡勞動力被取代了然後托育政策走走回頭路然後整體三數十年來努力的照顧公共化也走回頭路"},{"start":638.786,"end":653.147,"text":"保定你到底承不承認會不會對本國就業會造成失業衝擊啊我們會在這個我們會有一定的就業政策的支持所以你承認是有衝擊嗎"},{"start":655.335,"end":665.968,"text":"當然如果沒有任何配套的話或多或少都會有一點影響怎麼或多或少會有一點影響但是這是為什麼我們要訂定配套來設家屬你們政策公佈以後"},{"start":669.324,"end":676.307,"text":"社家屬雖然是衛福部的馬上開了一個會3月23號叫大家來開會開會是通3月23發文3月24就要開開了一個因應勞動部外籍幫傭政策的相關配套專案會議這個會議在講什麼這個會議在講勞動部的業務裡面最核心就是在講"},{"start":698.315,"end":701.276,"text":"居家托育人員多元就業獎勵計畫所以你們知道說這個會受影響嗎會直接衝擊到本國就業嗎所以我們要提就職職的方案你是無可替代到非開放不可嗎"},{"start":720.137,"end":743.639,"text":"沒有就都沒人做了嗎 現在先行就是有人做有錢人請會去外邦傭的 現在也是請本國邦傭在做啦你自己說我開放外國邦傭 他更爽 有錢人家庭 因為更有薪金請不上去的 因為我也是請不上去來 恐受影響 所以你們明明知道"},{"start":745.013,"end":767.023,"text":"這一些不管是顧小孩的終點家事的幫忙倒載煮飯的倒載打掃的保姆還有保姆爸爸保姆我請問你如果一般人失業可以領失業給付他們這些人可不可以領如果被外籍幫傭來取代掉了他們可不可以領失業給付如果當然是失業的話當然都可以領失業給付"},{"start":774.153,"end":778.938,"text":"那是要有雇主的啦那這些人有雇主嗎不要不食人間煙火在你們開放這個政策就會受衝擊會失業會被取代掉的人他們都是投保在"},{"start":792.372,"end":807.958,"text":"職業公會哪一個是有雇主的我們有評估過第一個他其實不是一個失業的邏輯基本上他可能會比方說有可能假設都沒有配套的話他可能確實會有一些服務的實施那你的配套是什麼你配套就是這個難就業安定基金給獎勵金不是嗎你們24號召集大家你們評估的就是8000人受益就是你們評估8000人會受失業會失業嘛"},{"start":821.963,"end":838.848,"text":"所以計劃錢就來自於就業安定基金嘛就是你們評估失業了要給獎勵金前一頁你們就是要給獎勵金嘛跟文說明就業安定基金不是只是因為他失業而是他可能包括他勞務上面包括各種的需求我們都知道啦還再去轉職訓練啦總而言之"},{"start":843.809,"end":846.453,"text":"如果你沒有開放這些外籍幫傭不會衝擊到他的就業他不會失業 他都用不著你我可以自己賺錢我幹嘛還需要去領你那多少錢啊你能夠給多久你能夠給多久 再來"},{"start":860.11,"end":873.78,"text":"這一些從業人員居多包括保姆包括家事服務工終點的服務工到宅煮飯的很多都是本來就是二度就業的而且都是婦女的從業人員的"},{"start":876.002,"end":892.287,"text":"你讓他們在這裡再失業一次你覺得他們還會再轉業嗎不是中高齡轉業 是高齡再轉業他們會 大家都知道轉職再轉職 越轉越往下往下流的地方流啦我是覺得說"},{"start":899.568,"end":913.896,"text":"一邊說不會被取代掉不是失業不是被取代掉然後你在這邊說我一邊要規劃他們轉職補助還有其他就業訓練轉職訓練還有其他的你剛剛講還要其他所以你的意思其實就是到底承不承認對本國的從業人員真的造成失業衝擊明明就是失業衝擊你在這裡還要講說沒有不是"},{"start":928.991,"end":945.646,"text":"跟文說明第一個當然如果都沒有任何配套的話確實會獲得你的配套就是失業以後我給你配套來承擔我們更多的在就業上面的支持其實更多是希望能夠擴展他勞務的機會而不一定一定是他是失業以後才擴展他勞務的機會就是讓這個市場變大"},{"start":952.893,"end":960.238,"text":"那我問你 如果這個市場有需求 有能力負擔我會早不請晚不請 你說現在找便宜的我跟你講真的有這麼便宜嗎如果可以請外勞 終點加外勞 我早就想要請了"},{"start":968.343,"end":977.966,"text":"我幹嘛等到你開放你說因為開放以後會比較便宜你一定說比較便宜所以他會請得起嘛你的理由是這樣嘛我現在要告訴你我們當時而且你也同意在國民黨修法要開放80歲以上全部開放外籍看護的時候長照失能的時候我們當時就講你也這樣講"},{"start":991.311,"end":1017.578,"text":"整個外籍移工的就業市場供給遠遠小於需求供給遠遠小於需求 當你開放了在顧小孩 在做家事的這邊的幫傭如果不是144萬的需求 五分之一就好了二十幾萬的需求 就跟你再評估八十幾歲 八十歲"},{"start":1020.158,"end":1047.531,"text":"這個開放外籍看護一樣我們評估二十幾萬人有這個需求就好了 同樣的邏輯他會不會照 我不要講說全部就馬上沒工啦大家寧可去當家事幫傭 外籍醫工大家寧可去顧小孩誰要去顧長照的失能的重度癱瘓的 沒有"},{"start":1048.391,"end":1056.41,"text":"如果移工他如果可以選擇可以轉換雇主他一定馬上說我要換去雇小孩誰要雇這個癱瘓在那裡的"},{"start":1058.359,"end":1065.725,"text":"而且這個市場供給小於需求所以需求面 你開放了 需求面擴大了那麼市場的價格就會上漲了大家都知道這個價格已經上漲了還沒有開放外籍家庭幫傭的時候已經上漲我再問你一件事開放外籍幫傭要不要適用勞基法你可不可以回答我"},{"start":1084.88,"end":1108.295,"text":"這一些在幹顧長照的都不用適用勞基法沒有得到勞基法的勞動權益勞動條件的保障那我再問你在幹顧小孩家庭幫傭的這一些外籍移工外籍幫傭要不要適用勞基法你在這裡回答我目前就法規上面家事移工是沒有適用勞基法"},{"start":1109.721,"end":1118.509,"text":"他是因為長照那個是政策上的管制現在我問你現在家庭當庸你還是要繼續讓他不適用可是即便因為大家適用了勞動力就沒那麼便宜了啦"},{"start":1124.995,"end":1143.099,"text":"那大家要問你 你都以前就知道的在家事服務的領域裡面 在私領域裡面長期都有勞動條件上的不公平 甚至剝削的情形你以前當立委的時候 在這裡也大家的撻伐過的你講過的 那這個事情你還是要維持不適用勞基法"},{"start":1150.22,"end":1160.829,"text":"你覺得這樣子,這樣子的糾紛會不會更多現在,現在我給大家講齁你不要以為不是用勞基法比較便宜,沒有因為大家的玩家越來越多"},{"start":1161.854,"end":1165.275,"text":"因為呢 我不想要顧這個土地的牙師 我要顧勤課的孩子家事幫傭的 你不要給我照 我就每天跟你玩遊戲然後這個衝突 衝突就把照顧的責任丟給家庭自行去買單家裡面你自己請外籍幫傭的"},{"start":1184.58,"end":1195.269,"text":"失能的老人 外籍班傭跟僱主 大家要自己去承擔 情緒也有負擔然後政府雙手一攤說 這個跟我無關 到我無關的 我都不用去煩惱這個政府什麼都不用做 就要自己是僱主跟外籍看護跟沒辦法的失能的被照顧者 現在"},{"start":1211.562,"end":1233.967,"text":"現在這個吵架會吵得更嚴重我在這裡可以告訴大家因為你又開放了可以顧小孩大家更想轉職但我們的法規規定不可以轉換雇主要雙方合一才可以所以每天跟你玩玩到有一天你雇主受不了啊你終於就說 好吧 放你走吧"},{"start":1236.687,"end":1246.773,"text":"請問 那未來長照顧詩能的長期躺在那裡 重度的誰人要顧 外籍幫傭 外籍移工真的遠遠不絕嗎保證你回答我"},{"start":1251.377,"end":1267.339,"text":"跟委員說我們第一個在這個外籍看護工或外籍幫傭上面其實即便他是在家庭裡面的權利其實我們都希望接下來我們其實也透過相關的這個雇主的手冊或各種其實盡力的希望來去做維護"},{"start":1268.4,"end":1273.783,"text":"你現在做保釣也很厲害 做官也很厲害你現在空位跟以前做立委都不一樣我現在說 其實你如果說 喔 誠實的告訴社會我這個衝擊有多大 當然我準備怎麼做 那"},{"start":1285.689,"end":1289.392,"text":"這個對兒童的權益會有影響什麼那你們還會怎麼做那如果對這個性別影響是什麼我準備怎麼接起來那我們還可以在你們心裡面想說至少這是一個負責任的套路我還沒講完嘛第一個對於他可能會在跟中國工作者"},{"start":1307.068,"end":1322.833,"text":"跟針對本國工作者上面可能的工作的影響的部分我們會跟衛福部這邊來擬一整套的計畫來去支持本國工作者在勞務上面市場的開拓衛福部其實是喔老實說是你們過程下他們就下了啦我現在要說衛福部也有啦欸 抱歉 兒童托育服務法不用立得這麼嚴了啦"},{"start":1329.275,"end":1335.338,"text":"整個法還在立法院協商我跟各位來用心跟三更半夜跟整個開好開滿然後說嚴格管制保姆然後居家托兒要怎麼規範一邊強度的規範托育然後在這裡立法要很高強度的管理一邊要放寬沒有訓練的外籍幫傭來育兒"},{"start":1356.309,"end":1359.711,"text":"這個政府在那裡兩個政策在那裡打架啦所以說這個我們的托育服務法還需要這麼嚴格嗎還沒立法嘛 還在審嘛 在協商嘛通通都開放那這個道理對本國提供托育服務的人"},{"start":1373.618,"end":1386.328,"text":"這麼高強度的管制要求這麼多要受訓考證照登記審核要層層把關才能夠提供托育服務但是外籍幫傭連語言溝通都有問題沒有相關訓練資格訓練然後本國人資格門檻被檢查被高度要求外籍幫傭通通都不用這個這樣子的"},{"start":1397.777,"end":1402.78,"text":"這樣子我從來沒有聽過說本籍的比外籍的還更嚴格的同時大家在講話外籍比本籍管得更嚴格我們現在回到本籍的管得嚴外籍的管得寬這沒有違反兒童最佳利益嗎還要從嚴立法嗎"},{"start":1422.896,"end":1427.343,"text":"對不對光是顧小孩是這樣子那再來講說這個在這種狀況裡面性別平等"},{"start":1435.15,"end":1460.562,"text":"你們在講我剛剛講說事實上我們台灣整體社會包括政府把公共照顧服務往前推這麼多已經推這麼多了我們也希望透過公共政策繼續解決家務勞動還有育兒性別不平等的問題那政府也當時一路走來都被迫但也始終是站在往前推進的立場"},{"start":1462.142,"end":1474.831,"text":"結果現在你開放了這種外籍幫傭你不願意再繼續改善你的公共政策然後面對資源的制度人力多方面缺失的問題你用這種併擠亂投一的態度"},{"start":1478.052,"end":1497.862,"text":"我們公共托育或者是托育的政策我們還是大力的正在做你現在選擇一個最便宜的最階級化的最可能改善剝削的然後最不可以致力於改善公共照顧服務品質配置化的我們也大力的在支持企業去投入到托育相關的政策裡面包括公共托育的部分這都是"},{"start":1498.482,"end":1517.61,"text":"一直在做 甚至更大力的那我問你我們一直在 你也說我們在做長照啊然後你一直開放外籍看護啊有外籍看護我還需要去使用你的長照嗎我還在乎你的長照嗎我有家庭幫傭顧小孩我還需要你的公共托育嗎"},{"start":1519.44,"end":1538.634,"text":"所以我們訪談到很多他表達需要外籍幫助他一樣會把小孩送托我現在跟你講就是說他一樣會把小孩送托當政府選擇一種最階級化最可能產生剝削的做法而對於不願致力於改善公共你現在這樣是有多少買得起的人才能夠這樣子呢買不起的人呢"},{"start":1544.258,"end":1556.954,"text":"所以我們講公共照顧要服務的其實是買不起的所以公共照顧他的品質要普及化他的價格要可敬性為什麼要可敬性"},{"start":1558.206,"end":1579.675,"text":"他的服務的可敬性是大家都知道因為因為一般人沒有辦法有那種能力嘛而你現在這個開放家庭幫兇也不是一般人有辦法的啦這是在鞏固有錢人才能享有的育兒喘息的特權如果在這裡我們不要講特權抱歉我更正我講錯了這是"},{"start":1582.036,"end":1604.325,"text":"鞏固就是說有錢才買得起的走回頭路有錢的自己買工沒錢的自求多福這是家庭自行買單啊那我們是想一直以來都把國家把政府拉進來來減少女性的家務的負擔為什麼不是在制度面上設計說你應該有一個設計男性共同來參與家務然後或者是說對盤點0到12歲"},{"start":1610.487,"end":1626.313,"text":"各公共托育客戶照顧資源減少資源落差改進這個服務品質或是我們一直在講說把育嬰假變成這個家庭那個照顧變成照顧假然後開放到8歲然後一小時你們有了但你們現在只到3歲嘛"},{"start":1627.373,"end":1644.319,"text":"我們這部分在研議要擴大啊那也是讓更多的男性其實已經投入了啊這部分的做法跟政策我們一直在有錢推進啊那甚至是推出完善的有心家庭照顧就好現在來了現在就你們第一個不願意重新分配第二個政府的資源不願意再投入所以你現在選一個最簡單的有錢開放有錢的可以買社會的反彈壓力小"},{"start":1649.601,"end":1672.509,"text":"政府的資源跟政策一樣在推進如果開放二十幾萬人可以請家庭搬佣他可能對於育兒的辛苦或是家務的辛苦他就分擔了那反彈的聲音就降低了要求公共政策提供的聲浪也會下降所以在這裡是"},{"start":1673.849,"end":1695.349,"text":"你們直接開放讓高收入的家庭直接向全球南方國家購買廉價的勞動力啦所以這個照顧私有化的手段來規避照顧資源分配不均導致的社會不平等這個就是 這個是團體認為的啦所謂的不負責任啦 不負責任啦"},{"start":1696.482,"end":1713.928,"text":"真的是不負責任 連在友善職場的部分包括製度的部分我們現在也在擴大 正在研議以日傾的育嬰留庭 希望往前再推進包括資源的投入也更多包括托育的資源 包括企業托育的部分我們也都是更大力在做這部分不會改變 而且只會做得更多這個方向不會改變的開放到8歲 以小時計算我不是跟你講 我們這個"},{"start":1724.161,"end":1743.815,"text":"育嬰留庭合併計算進來我們目前就是希望能夠你們都不願意了3歲的部分我們就希望現在正在研議朝擴大的方向在研議這事情我已經在幾個幾週前其實我也跟大家報告過了目前就是往這個方向在研議中那這個要修法"},{"start":1746.528,"end":1763.839,"text":"我現在就告訴你你們在這種狀況裡面一直研議你們所有東西都是研議包括我剛剛講的衝擊你們也是研議你還沒上任以前也是在研議然後現在什麼研議這麼多年通通都沒有你現在在告訴我們說我們會繼續研議我們朝向更大幅的開放沒有啊你們現在的我剛剛講的這個包括已日請的這個這個照顧我們要一小時啊"},{"start":1774.367,"end":1783.115,"text":"整個總體時數沒有變 天數沒有變價格也沒有增加預算然後就讓你開放成幾個小時 你都不願意了"},{"start":1784.127,"end":1810.829,"text":"我認真不是不認真我們是一步一步再往前做對嘛我們之前三歲以前我們會把它擴大讓這個照顧的友善程度可以大幅改善的你們是牛步話然後讓家庭自己有錢家庭自己去買工沒錢的自求多福的馬上開放我們沒有牛步話目前一日請的部分才上路兩個月我們就一直在研議把它擴大了"},{"start":1812.298,"end":1815.06,"text":"我們呼籲了幾年啦第一個 年紀要到幾歲因為很多職場的滑坡 勞動力滑坡就是經常經常 孩子不是只有讓他長大讓他吃飯 讓他讀書要陪伴或是生病了 要到學校去這是我們在考慮的有心家庭照顧假 你給不了"},{"start":1834.075,"end":1862.054,"text":"你們雇主也不願意負擔政府不可能編列這個預算那我們就把這個育嬰留庭的假日整個天數都沒有動讓他友善到可以8歲然後以小時為計你們通通就講我們繼續研議你們說你們開放到天了王偉聖在那裡啦他知道這樣一路走來已經很多年了很多年了不叫牛布化那叫什麼"},{"start":1863.816,"end":1874.746,"text":"目前上路才兩三個月 那是我們推動很多年以後你才正式回應我們的第一次回應在你上路以前我們推動很多年啊 是啊所以我們接下來 政府是被推動的 不是政府主動的"},{"start":1884.329,"end":1899.164,"text":"希望能夠讓這個政策的擴大跟彈性都能夠再往前進這個我們非常非常認真的看待這個數據我們很務實的跟你講會提升婦女勞動參與率然後很務實跟你講不增加雇主的支出總時數沒有變彈性化"},{"start":1902.574,"end":1908.035,"text":"我就不曉得你們就是在還試辦的時候你還沒上任試辦的時候黃偉生還找那個輪班三班制的去試辦還失敗因為三班制一個蘿蔔一個坑當然失敗那是因為你上任我承認因為你上任所以你push他要先試辦再試辦一次友善的直接上路現在不是試辦現在已經正式上路那現在是以天為計"},{"start":1927.819,"end":1949.513,"text":"是 已經正式上路了 而且成效很不錯那我們 當然喔 有需求喔那我們跟你講 更友善 年齡要擴散 擴大然後呢 時數就是以小時為止我們有往這個擴大的方向 目前正在規劃跟研議這個東西只是一小小步 還用自己的育嬰留庭的價 按天數"},{"start":1951.181,"end":1976.122,"text":"那個只是我們勞工自己的天數你現在這一個你就在拿我們勞工裡面的來給我邀功不需要只是希望你們彈性化但我們希望的是政府應該做的是更多而更多並不是你台放外籍幫傭那個是有錢人才買得起的"},{"start":1978.274,"end":1985.528,"text":"那個是家庭自己買工沒有買不起的人買不起的人 這個政策有什麼可敬性"},{"start":1986.816,"end":2015.097,"text":"買不起的人這個政策與我有何干啊所以不同的對象其實就像來你看這個我跟你講這個對誰最有利喔仲介業來馬上我的朋友就LINE來了我的朋友馬上就LINE來了仲介第一時間開放宣誓政策的時候仲介打電話來來你看這個放大這個怎麼沒有喔最後一個啦我今天接到電話咧家裡有12歲小孩可以請家庭家事照顧外勞啊"},{"start":2018.427,"end":2037.612,"text":"馬上仲介一一打電話給有12歲以下的家庭的父母很多人接到很多人接到仲介等著要接所以我們第一時間就回覆他沒有人要照顧老人了沒有人要照顧老人了怎麼辦仲度失能的老人怎麼辦大家都想我要家庭幫傭了"},{"start":2045.047,"end":2056.03,"text":"那外籍義工不願意照顧老人 怎麼辦這不是你的業務 這衛福部的業務這個沒關係 吵架也不是你們承擔是那個家裡面的僱主要承擔所以現在是國家怎樣 雙手一攤有錢去威威 用這個就好了好 謝謝好 謝謝淑芬委員"}]}},{"id":"167941","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167941","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e81bb1bb5cf976c761db4e8dc12ee0255ec4551788d53590ed104b08215f3295d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:09:45 - 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我們會主動調查來 第二個我想請教一下我想這個主委您也應該會常常關心這個時事的進展這個外送平台的併購案最近有一個很大的新聞就是這個Grab去收購Foodpanda"},{"start":217.036,"end":245.942,"text":"那其实在您的报告里头也提到了我们去年在讨论Uber Eats要去并购Fu Panda的这个案子其实引起了台湾的社会大众很大的关心这个会不会造成如果这两家结合Uber Eats跟Fu Panda结合之后其实在台湾的市占率是高达九成以上那当然公平会已经禁止他们了但是最近这个GrabGrab在台湾还没有任何的业务执行但它在东南亚其实是一个Super App"},{"start":246.702,"end":263.985,"text":"它包含食衣住行等等其實它在東南亞的影響力是非常的大那Grab去併購去收購Fu Panda我們擔心的是說它是不是有一個繞道的行為因為這個Grab的它其實"},{"start":265.529,"end":284.01,"text":"Uber是Grab的重要股東Uber佔了這個股份大概是13%我想這個你們應該有密切掌握那Uber的執行長其實也是Grab的董事所以就這樣的一個結合情形結合案到底公平會是怎麼看"},{"start":284.761,"end":304.237,"text":"因為這個案子目前還沒有送件所以我想等案子進來以後我們還是會依照過去在審Uber Eats跟那個Foodpanda的案子那個分析架構來進行分析當然這個案子跟前面那個案子有點不太一樣因為前面的案子是結尾以後市佔率會高達九成那這個案子基本上是一個企業來頂Foodpanda的地位那不過剛剛委員提到這個問題 繞道的問題"},{"start":306.218,"end":326.465,"text":"股權持有的問題這也是我們在分析當中會特別注意不過這個地方先跟委員說明一下就是說雖然UberEats持有Grab的13.5%但是據我們進一步的了解從它的財報去看其實那個股權結構是有不同的類型有A股B股所以實際上它的控制的權力可能沒有達到13%不過我們還是會繼續的去注意就是說這個13%這件事實會不會導致他們在結合以後有進行市場行為濫用的一個可能性"},{"start":334.548,"end":358.028,"text":"這些都是我們在分析當中會特別去注意所以你們現在也已經開始在收集資料我想對於公平匯來講我們大概也不是說就形式上比如說他不是用Uber Eats的名字來併購Foodpanda他換了一個名字叫Grab換了一家公司那實際的在股權的掌握上面或者是在這個整個公司的實質影響力上面"},{"start":358.929,"end":383.794,"text":"對於Fu Panda的公司運作上面是不是會造成巨大的影響會不會也造成間接的壟斷行為這個我想也都是公平會應該要考量的重點這個我們後續再分析的部分我想也要再跟您討論到就是說我們的外送專法這個外送平台專法即將要上路那公平會的角色"},{"start":384.634,"end":411.635,"text":"在這個外送專法的上路的這個同時當然這個跟公平會沒有太大的連結公平會大概還是防止壟斷不過這樣的一個併購案如果它真的是一個繞道的併購案的話我想對於我們這個外送專法的上路對於外送員的這樣的一個保障其實還是會受到相當大的影響的"},{"start":412.595,"end":429.516,"text":"我想外送專法的實施如果導致平台他把成本轉嫁給下游那彼此之間出現了按摩勾結聯合漲價的行為這當然我們還是有空間可以去介入主要就是在外送專法實施以後後續所引發的這些競爭行為如果抵觸公平法我們還是有介入的空間"},{"start":430.898,"end":450.275,"text":"我想這個還是要請公平會要密切的注意第三題要跟您請教主委您知道這家公司嗎我知道你們有沒有開始在介入調查有 這個有調查那現在調查的狀況是什麼這家魅力公司還真的很厲害"},{"start":452.221,"end":463.104,"text":"它的魚油120顆就要賣600塊美金我算了一下如果你用美元的匯率如果乘以30的話120顆要賣18000塊台幣等於一顆要賣150塊一顆魚油要賣150塊而且它沒有健康食品的字號"},{"start":473.72,"end":492.17,"text":"那我們昨天試圖要進入這家公司的網站這網站已經被封了 已經被封起來了那這個刑事警察局直接認定這是一家詐騙所以這家公司到底有沒有來跟公平會申請報備那當時你們的審核標準是什麼"},{"start":495.697,"end":520.195,"text":"他們113年的時候有報備那這家公司目前已經申請要停止營業已經有跟我們來報備來跟你們申請停止營業對但是對於這個假傳銷珍稀金的這個狀態公平會的掌握程度到哪裡我們曾經有因為他並跟商品沒有來報備我們處分過他在個案當中那目前還在調查就是說他有沒有該因報備而不報備的一個情況"},{"start":521.036,"end":545.509,"text":"所以這個案子還在調查當中所以主委這個也是我們一直在講傳銷直銷公司就是每一個都是用報備制其實我們沒有辦法進行實質的審查對於很多的消費大眾來講或者是很多的投資人來講你很容易就陷入這種假傳銷徵稀金然後被詐騙現在這個初估這一家公司的詐騙金額高達台幣15億元以上"},{"start":550.692,"end":577.265,"text":"這是一個非常非常嚴重的問題像這樣子一直不斷的幾乎每一次我們只要跟公平會談都會有一家新的直銷公司出狀況甚至甚或是不只一家那這些狀態公平會也只能用報備的方式去處理這個也是我們覺得很憂心的其實有心人要詐騙的話就會鑽這個直銷的漏洞這個也是我們在法令上應該要趕快去補足的地方"},{"start":578.175,"end":604.962,"text":"我想詐騙的部分當然我也很清楚就是由法務部這邊來處理詐騙當然是法務部處理我現在講就是說這些傳銷公司這個報備許可制這個裡面有一些因素必須要同時考慮因為傳銷也是一個商業行為所以到底許可報備等等之間的糾葛本會議在過去也表達過我們的立場就是說對於這個傳銷事業本身也是零售事業的一部分是不是有適合高強度的介入管制我覺得這還有必要進一步去"},{"start":605.302,"end":625.217,"text":"不過你如果發現這樣的一個詐騙行為詐騙案件或詐騙公司一直不斷的在上升的時候其實公平會就不應該這麼相悅也不應該這麼消極這是本席的建議好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝邱映委員謝謝公平會主委好那因為在場人數已足"}]}},{"id":"167955","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167955","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4eb57a5de9139b0b7dc30e9bbc489b48f6144d5468a2b72bfda70d2b13d237a2c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:11:57 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謝謝主席謝謝主席安排今天的主題就是在職照顧者支持體系的需求那癌症也是重要的需求很高興今天有兩位部長在現場我還是先請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":25.886,"end":48.157,"text":"今天有兩個題目來跟兩位部長討論一下第一個就是配合健康台灣癌症死亡率降低這個國策重要的國策那我們在執行上需要還有哪些可以調整的地方第二部分就是強化癌症患者經濟穩定與職場的友善這部分當然會牽扯到我們勞動部的洪部長"},{"start":49.677,"end":73.289,"text":"我們也了解台灣的癌症經過這幾十年來大家的努力其實存活率已經有明顯的改善我們在30年前1987年那時候存活率是45.4那到2017、2021的這些癌症診斷者他的存活率已經達到62.3%這個都是大家共同努力的成果"},{"start":73.769,"end":100.718,"text":"那我相信未來還會更好因為我們投資了大量資源那同時也有非常好的一些措施來改善這樣的機會的成果是非常高的那白總統他在癌症治療的部分也有很大的期待就是透過這個三支箭來讓這個2030年的這個癌症死亡率可以減三分之一那這部分大家都很努力的希望能夠讓他有機會促成"},{"start":101.912,"end":129.139,"text":"不過不管怎麼樣如果真的要把這個降低三分之一的目標達成的話那以2024年癌症死亡人數是五萬四零三二人為例的話那我們需要到2030年死亡人數要降低到一萬八千人以上才有辦法達到這樣的目標那意思就是說我們會有非常非常多的癌症病人離癌以後他變成這些康復者或者是一個癌症的存活者他在這個過程裡面"},{"start":130.579,"end":157.224,"text":"就會有很多需要政策或各方面要來調整的地方那我們也了解這個癌症存活率增加以後相對來講可能就會有各方面的問題會出來包括當他在治療的時候可持續可負擔的治療與用藥那總統的這個百利癌症基金基本上就是希望能夠幫助這個部分那當然這些癌症病人他復健啊"},{"start":158.044,"end":173.474,"text":"後續的追蹤避免復發也都是重要的課題那我們也了解在這個診療以後有一部分的癌症病人可能他的身體狀況各方面不是那麼理想那就需要好的長照資源的整合一起來處理"},{"start":174.395,"end":198.45,"text":"那如果他康復得非常順利那他也具有好的工作能力所以繼續工作以經濟穩定就變成是可以讓他們持續對社會有所貢獻那我們可以理解如果這些癌症存活者他能夠提供好的工作能力的話那對勞工來講他可以經濟穩定那同時也有身心回歸到社會"},{"start":199.43,"end":220.157,"text":"持續來幫助社會那對僱主來講他就可以避免這個手手的離職他可以穩定他整體的這些工作量能讓整體的這個企業運作可以更順暢那對政府來講當然是可以減少勞動力的減損所以我們認為這個癌症存活率的增加是非常重要的部分那"},{"start":221.838,"end":235.485,"text":"所以如何能夠讓政府來協助跟這個跟資方的協調讓癌症的存活者可以順利的讓他的工作跟經濟穩定都可以達到目標所以在這些需求之下"},{"start":237.026,"end":264.307,"text":"法治如何能夠有機會來改變癌症防治法在2003年就成立到目前已經有23年的時間那其實過去這這麼多年來對於這個目前18條的立法框架並沒有很大的改變第一次修法是在2018年那個修法除了改變名稱以外就是調整癌症防治委員會的成員讓他更多元"},{"start":264.887,"end":284.368,"text":"還有就是增加主管機關可以在辦理這個癌症預防增加監會的部分透過N捐跟團體的捐助我們不知道團體捐助到底有多少的益助不過起碼這也是一個修法的內容那第二次的修法是在2023年只是把科技部門名稱改成國科會"},{"start":285.329,"end":304.142,"text":"所以未來我們要到達達到2030年這麼遠大的目標我們在法制上我們如何能夠同步的做修正看起來是勢在必行大概我們剛剛提到的有這麼多的勞工朋友他癌症也康復了如何能夠讓李雅的勞工"},{"start":305.303,"end":330.56,"text":"適性配工 植物再設計還有鼓勵支持方案等等長照資源怎麼整合還有避免罹癌治療導致財務毒性剛剛所提到的一些問題還有有沒有相關的措施跟統計分析還有罹癌生活模式的改善等等這個都是希望再過來做癌症防治法修飾裡面重要的一些我們想要去了解的地方"},{"start":331.901,"end":354.682,"text":"再過來我們也了解目前第五期的國家癌症防治計畫是2024年到2030年要執行我們看到有關於癌症存活者的部分他其實相對是比較重視在照護跟安寧緩和療護如果他是無法治癒而是一個在需要處理者的話"},{"start":355.402,"end":377.281,"text":"所以在這個部分針對於癌症康復者有沒有更好的處理模式或者是需求我們目前看到這個計畫裡面相對來講是比較缺乏的以這個跟各部位的合作為例勞動部的部分它其實就相對比較簡單還是維持在做這個職業性的癌症"},{"start":378.862,"end":399.064,"text":"這個危害的預防還有協助做這個勞工的這些癌病的篩檢等等這個看起來對於存活者的這個友善或者是需求好像還有機會來做精進那我們針對勞動部過去20年來我們也看到跟癌症比較相關的就是這個勞保職業病給付"},{"start":401.066,"end":423.946,"text":"職業相關癌症20年來只處理了將近700件我們每一年有13萬的新病例產生所以如何能夠讓勞動部這方面有更好的協助其實我們可以看得很清楚從數據上勞動部可以更積極的來協助我們這些罹癌者未來在勞動過程當中得到的勞動部的協助"},{"start":427.449,"end":452.154,"text":"不過我們也很感謝勞動部在針對這個中央癌症防治匯報裡面的報告希望能夠針對這個職場的重返包括剛剛所提到的適性配公司、賽車系等等都有積極的在延續可行的方向作為將來勞動部所能夠支持的包括企業評比、永續發展等機制讓大家都可以了解"},{"start":453.134,"end":459.999,"text":"針對於財務的部分我們也知道其實台灣目前並沒有國家級的本土研究"},{"start":461.315,"end":489.076,"text":"這方面我們真的很希望能夠讓疑癌家庭跟這個癌病病人治療過程當中所發揮的費用統計能夠有更好更全面的這些國家級的本土研究那這其中裡面有一項就是就業狀態是很重要的一個因素那這個因素國際研究告訴我們它是一個影響的指標所以未來在做研究的時候我們希望把這個內容能夠含括進來"},{"start":490.277,"end":504.648,"text":"智慧的這些處理是癌友不可承受之重這個就是所謂的癌相關的財務毒性依照病友團體他們2022年的報告裡面有20%的病人他們在治療過程當中會超過100萬"},{"start":506.81,"end":530.444,"text":"那一般的家庭當年的儲蓄可能只有27.4萬所以這麼多的病人一般家庭一旦有人離開可能會從平民變成平民這個是希望大家共同再來努力的地方所以剛講的那麼多期待的就是針對於這個存活率的增加那"},{"start":531.425,"end":556.389,"text":"在修法上面如何研擬它該有的內容還有它的可行性第二部分就是針對罹癌存活率的增加應該研擬怎麼樣調整國家的癌症計畫我們剛看到2030年的計畫裡面我們希望把這些也都能夠有機會去做調整那這兩部分我們希望能夠透過衛福部的跟大家共同來努力"},{"start":557.129,"end":579.669,"text":"第三個部分就是請務務部或者是適合的單位進行理解對個人經濟跟家庭財務的影響以及相關職業跟工作衝擊的研究來完備整個未來希望做改善的部分那針對第一項跟第二項會請部長有一個完整的書面報告在三個月裡面提供我們做參考"},{"start":580.33,"end":594.306,"text":"那第三點的部分是不是有啟動了一些機制讓我們可以針對這些內容做本土研究好 跟委員說明那麼確實這個癌症防治法已經很久了這個是2003年的立法"},{"start":595.287,"end":622.742,"text":"現在癌症的照顧當然也從身心靈是全方位的照顧所以過去這幾年我們也在105個醫院成立了這個癌症支援中心就是希望結合除了身心靈照顧之外還包含家屬的支持權益的保障等等那這當中當然也包含需要有一些支援互相之間的連結包含這個如何能夠再回到這個工作的職場所以這個部分我們來"},{"start":624.283,"end":650.68,"text":"看看這個是不是需要修正這個癌症防治法至於說這個癌症相關的研究按照癌症防治法就是要進行這個research的這個是每年都在持續的進行當中那但是在這個委員所提到的這個個人經濟跟家庭財務的影響的部分呢我們來研議把它納入在這未來的癌症的這個研究的題目裡頭是"},{"start":651.861,"end":666.046,"text":"好謝謝那這個部分就麻煩在第一第二項給我們書面報告那第三項也到時候讓我們多了解一下齁再回來的這個演繹謝謝謝謝施部長那我再請教一下我們橫部長也謝謝橫部長對於這個勞動朋友他們離開過程裡面的得到"},{"start":670.527,"end":693.934,"text":"很多相關的協助先表達感謝我們也希望勞動部能夠建置離愛勞工職場友善資訊專區我相信這個專區就比如像身心障礙者接位支援等等的這個專區一樣我們希望透過這個專區的設置可以讓這個癌友使用法定的權益等等以外那也可以"},{"start":695.074,"end":714.285,"text":"把一些常見的QA包括僱主跟勞工之間的問題能夠透過這個專區來做友善的連結那這個部分我們也常常接收到相關的訊息就是可不可以請勞動部可以再做一些司法性的示意包括說"},{"start":715.606,"end":741.502,"text":"我們了解這麼多的勞動朋友他一旦離開以後那在職的勞工經過治療那事業單位以業務緊縮沒有工作崗位為由來解雇那不讓勞工回來這是常見的一個面向樣態另外在職勞工離開以後雇主不願意調整職務或者是提供教育訓練來協助勞工改善就直接把他解雇這是另外一個面向"},{"start":742.182,"end":769.303,"text":"那另外一種雖然比較少見可是還是會出現的是面試雙方合意拚顧以後勞工去健檢發現糟糕厲害了公司隨即表示不再僱用那這些面向是不是能夠麻煩勞動部這一邊有一個專區來做回答以外那也可以通行給地方政府跟相關的單位來做一個函示避免相關的爭議的再現不知道這邊部長"},{"start":770.484,"end":796.731,"text":"好那個第一個很謝謝委員對於這個離開勞工的關心那就委員剛才講到包括我們在網站上的專區那其實是有些資料在上面只是我們也可以來檢討那把它其實放置的位置能夠更顯眼更容易查找的到這部分我們會來努力那第二個是剛剛委員剛才提到的這三個這個意見我想我們應該都是可以來做成相關的函式"},{"start":797.691,"end":809.982,"text":"甚至我自己是希望我們盡快兩個禮拜內我們把它完成這樣子好謝謝部長好也謝謝主席謝謝那個王振旭委員好那接下來請您"}]}},{"id":"167954","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167954","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4ea381a7d95e45f3501db4e8dc12ee02550f073324919e7b6e10ab85f957d34f9a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:43:41 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謝謝主席我想要請公平會的代理主委陳主委"},{"start":22.104,"end":32.287,"text":"陳主委早大家都問到了就是Grab的問題因為Uber有13.05還是13.05的股權當然從股權的角度來看它也沒有到整個完全擁有"},{"start":43.496,"end":66.352,"text":"那但是為什麼大家在討論他現在只有宣布而已我相信也還沒送你們公平會吧還沒還沒送嘛對不對可是未來會不會他未來如果真的就是說要實施併購的時候會不會送公平會需不需要根據什麼法律目前的情況看起來是一定要送"},{"start":67.093,"end":80.429,"text":"因為市佔率市佔率 對他們兩家加起來市佔率多少沒有 依照我們公平法的規定目前市佔率只要超過一定門檻就一定要進回來審查那目前這個foodpandafoodpanda已經超過了foodpanda超過了對對對"},{"start":82.264,"end":106.33,"text":"他已經超過四分之一了市佔率他已經超過四分之一了所以這個案子如果他們真的要進行購併的話一定要送到公平會來所以未來他一定要送公平會來審理那你公平會怎麼審查呢怎麼樣子來審查哪一條法律來確保我們消費者不會喪失選擇權嗎因為有可能如果Uber"},{"start":107.35,"end":124.928,"text":"你也知道嘛過去曾經Uber也想要併購Foodpanda結果沒有成功嘛那時候大家擔心的就是消費者喪失選擇權以及有可能導致的就是說聯合的這個外送的費用的問題那這要怎麼處理"},{"start":126.09,"end":138.481,"text":"這個我想跟我們上一個案子的整個的分析的架構是一樣的那剛剛委員提到的問題其實都是我們會審查的我們會去觀察結合以後那個市場結構的改變會不會導致這個結合後的事業有能力去漲價把價格抬得很高"},{"start":140.603,"end":164.917,"text":"那當然結合以後會不會讓兩大平台更有機會去進行聯合所以剛剛委員關切的議題其實都是我們審查時候會去注意的對我是說因為畢竟過去Uber就已經要併購Fupenda嘛那再加上現在Grab但是你也要必須要考慮喔因為現在他不是用Uber去併購Fupenda嘛他是用Grab那Grab他的"},{"start":166.017,"end":181.956,"text":"呃行為模式以及他的這個機制是不一樣的喔是不是他我看到他是他們呃的定價我在在新加坡的時候有用過Grab他們的定價會即便是相同的距離"},{"start":182.637,"end":202.647,"text":"也有可能是不同的價格他們根據的是GeoHash這樣子的系統然後把每一個地區變成一個小區塊然後按照小區塊的供需的這個模式來決定它定價的方式謝謝委員提醒像這種比較特殊的定價模式我們在分析過程裡面會納入考慮特別是在於"},{"start":203.707,"end":218.833,"text":"結合以後這個事業他有沒有能力任意去漲價這個地方定價的模式還有過去所在他也許他也許不是在就是說抽成上面或者是什麼可是他運用的反而是一個APP"},{"start":219.773,"end":243.55,"text":"他計算的方式以及他們演算時候所產生的這樣子的一個計價方式那你怎麼樣子去進行你們現在公平會裡面有沒有相關的專業可以去進行這個審查以及未來公平會怎麼樣子在審查的過程當中藉由會不會需要勞動部"},{"start":245.851,"end":269.41,"text":"或者是其他部會共同來聯合審查然後來確保我們外送就是外送員的相關的權利呢這個案子因為備受矚目所以我們一定會廣徵各方面的意見包含主管機關還包含業者包含消費者團體等等我們會綜合考慮那有一些技術面的東西我們可能更由不排除我們可能必須要專家學者的協調"},{"start":270.05,"end":297.336,"text":"這已經是更技術面了它不是從就是說契約上面來講這個外送員的就是說聯合的這個問題那它用不同的演算的方式會不會造成就是說變相的我們消費者就喪失了選擇權然後呢變相的我們的外送費用就增加了以及我們的外送員的勞動權益就受損了"},{"start":299.676,"end":320.055,"text":"是不是等案子送進來以後我們在分析過程當中委員所關切這個問題我們都會把它納入考慮當然剛剛如同我剛剛所講的有些技術性的問題我們是必須要依賴外面的協助所以像學者專家這個我們都會爭議所以你們要技術人員的協助嘛對不對有些比較技術性像數位演算法這些東西也許可能要一些專家學者來提供一些意見"},{"start":320.655,"end":344.36,"text":"好 還有另外一個問題就是如果Fupenda就是由我們所有消費者的這些消費行為跟金流的數據那未來GREP它不是在台灣而它是在一個就是境外在台灣是沒有實體總部的這樣子的一個情況下那我們怎麼樣進行"},{"start":345.62,"end":363.494,"text":"如果委員關切的是資料的隱私保護的部分這部分可能不是屬於公平會去處理的問題不是你們處理但是未來審查的時候會不會有介入共同來討論這一點我們會從競爭的觀點去看看他對隱私權保護的夠或不夠到底對市場競爭會產生什麼影響"},{"start":364.855,"end":380.477,"text":"所以你們不會直接去看說你接了以後你是不是對隱私權的保護就會比較鬆散所以這個東西可能還需要數位部或者是其他的相關部會共同來審查嘛 是不是"},{"start":381.038,"end":400.292,"text":"如果未來我們所有人在福平島上面的數據而外流到因為那有可能是那個什麼GDP定位或者什麼什麼等等的相關的問題那如果未來外流到一個不是在台灣的實體公司的時候那怎麼樣處理"},{"start":401.833,"end":421.698,"text":"這個就剛剛跟委員報告隱私的保護我們大概就不會介入因為有其他的主管機關在處理那數據的部分其實跟競爭有可能會產生一些關係數據的使用數據的濫用來排斥競爭這個其實競爭法是可以來介入當然如果有這樣的事證的話我們也會介入去處理所以你們會就數據數據的濫用導致市場競爭的減損或限制我們如果有這種事證的話我們會介入調查好那"},{"start":428.64,"end":441.239,"text":"現在大家討論的就是行政院他宣誓下游不屯那你們說你們只是就聯合什麼樣子叫聯合因為一般的民眾認為當"},{"start":443.983,"end":472.804,"text":"這個塑膠袋的情況下那什麼樣子叫聯合什麼樣子只是暫時的囤積在這我相信你們參加了整個物價的這個穩定的你們都是在那個物價穩定平台裡面嘛是那怎麼樣子處理這一塊呢基本上那個平台是分工的啦我知道我們的角色主要就是聯合那當然什麼叫聯合聯合就是同業之間有某一種形式的合意集體的 譬如說集體拒絕出貨這個其實也是聯合行為"},{"start":474.485,"end":502.18,"text":"你覺得現在有沒有這樣的情況這個需要市政的調查那調查市政需要一點時間那需要多久因為有時候市政調查這個情況就是說消費者已經面臨到這個情況有點緩不濟急但是目前我們已經跟經濟部在密切的配合如果看他們盤查的結果那同時我們也在自己有進行市場的了解那如果初步的市政顯示似乎有聯合的情況出現的話我們就會立案調查所以現在你們還需要多少時間"},{"start":503.684,"end":510.931,"text":"因為這個事件剛我們現在目前正在了解當中你們需要多少時間"},{"start":513.206,"end":540.107,"text":"因為我們現在是調查資料中 還要等業者提供資料過來所以在目前很難給委員一個確確的對啊 因為人家美國說很快就那個中東衝突就結束了嘛你總不能在中東衝突結束前都沒有一個結果還是你們估計你們有內部的資料顯示中東的衝突是超過四到六個禮拜六到八個禮拜 是不是六個月以上"},{"start":540.988,"end":547.351,"text":"我會盡快啦所以你們可以慢慢做不會慢慢做啦我們一定積極地去調查那什麼時候給給大家一個交代盡量在四個月內可以嘛四個月內做個調查應該要早一點吧四個月內說不定戰爭都結束了因為有時候跟業者要資料他回來我們要研析而且最重要的是說我們要經過委員會還要有委員會的討論"},{"start":570.27,"end":581.598,"text":"你至少要三個月吧好不好三個月這沒有很勉強啦三個月沒有很勉強啦我們盡量朝三個月來做了好"}]}},{"id":"167953","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167953","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e6d6323f096ef9678ae1aa3b65d4e28a90f073324919e7b6e741abac731c48f905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:24:27 - 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就是說這是境外敵對勢力對我們不管武力威脅 網路威脅 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圖利什麼等等但是為什麼唯獨國安法說你先"},{"start":379.6,"end":401.678,"text":"停發半數那現在說法是說啊沒有關係啊如果你那個判決最後沒有確立的話我會還給你啊可是問題是在常常一個官司耗費時日如果你就立刻停發半數的話你對這些公務人員來說他的清白還沒有還給他他可能他的生活就已經先遭遇困難了"},{"start":403.139,"end":406.922,"text":"我們的法律怎麼會擴權擴到可以覺得隨隨便便去影響民眾的這樣權益可以去影響民眾的生活而還覺得OK啊 沒有問題啊"},{"start":418.969,"end":432.845,"text":"連全市部對這個事實上都有疑慮的意見我在看到相關的意見既然我們行政院各單位各部會全部附和沒問題沒問題如果有一天你今天現在有很多什麼"},{"start":433.906,"end":451.328,"text":"貪污圖利各種的這個法則你在沒有判決之時我就先給你停發半年的退休金我就給你停發你的薪水你可以接受嗎將心比心啊所以我希望說我們在國安法的修正裡面"},{"start":452.697,"end":457.86,"text":"那個大帽子就說 哎呀 這個中國大陸很可怕 很可惡可是如果我們可以這樣無限的去擴張我們的行政權然後壓縮人民的權利 甚至侵害人民的權利那請問一下 跟我們過去的白色恐怖有什麼不一樣過去也是啊"},{"start":475.03,"end":482.472,"text":"匪諜就在你身邊啊所以到處抓匪諜每個人隨便的原本都說你是中共同路人都說你是在地協力者更進一步就直接拿國安法來辦你那你跟過去美國的麥卡錫主義有什麼不一樣呢到處在獵巫啊"},{"start":495.325,"end":522.134,"text":"所以在國人法的修正裡面我認為要切記的不用以所謂的就是反對或者阻擋來自於這位敵對勢力的滲透作為一個大帽子但是它實際已經限縮了很多我們人民的權利甚至是侵犯人民的權利這是我們在修法的過程裡面一定要盡量盡量去避免的以上"}]}},{"id":"167952","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167952","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e07fc87f957fb01951db4e8dc12ee02550f073324919e7b6e486914daaa45fd855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:33:09 - 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列席的政府局長 市長 官員 會長 工作夥伴記者媒體女士先生 那麼有請陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":31.533,"end":48.744,"text":"主委好最近你常常被問到公平會就是要問到說Grab要收購台灣的Hupenda請問一下你知道嗎這個Hupenda的最大股東是Uber嗎我知道他雖然沒有照過一半但是如果Grab跟Uber之間存在著交叉持股那算不算Uber繞道來併購這個Hupenda呢"},{"start":51.526,"end":79.52,"text":"重點還是在於他掌握的那個13.5的股權能夠影響到Grab什麼程度所以強調是實質的控制力這個我們會在審查當中注意但是除了這個之後我們關心的又是下一個就是AI聊天機器人竟然未來可能投放廣告你看媒體報導的很大ChapGPT拓財源要推廣告服務我就很好奇ChapGPT要怎麼推廣告服務呢我記得28年前有一個電影叫楚門的世界諸位有沒有看過"},{"start":80.84,"end":107.139,"text":"這裡面的電影呢只有一個人是不知情的其他都是演員對不對包括演他太太的還會在觀眾收看這個直播這個情境實境節目的時候呢會看到他推銷廣告是不是這樣子好那我們消費者看電影的人看楚門世界的人都知道那個是一個廣告但是只有看的只有楚門自己不知道但是現在的ChipGP電影在今年2月開始試著投放我們來看一下"},{"start":107.97,"end":125.565,"text":"我們對這種事情有沒有管制 網紅的業配有管制譬如說 我這個 主委有沒有看過我的直播沒有是正常的 因為我的直播實在沒有很多人看連小咖的網紅都稱不上但是你們公評會有對於見證廣告的規範做 有沒有要求"},{"start":126.546,"end":151.121,"text":"見證型的 有嗎 你們有做過嗎 因為我每次直播都吃播我立法院附近買了小吃 邊吃邊說這個好不好吃 這個怎麼樣 立法三寶啊那我是不是專業人士 我至少吃 還算有研究嘛 對不對那我有沒有跟他有利益的關係的介入 要啊如果這個東西要送我的 請他幫我講好話 幫他講好話我要知道說這個鄉親送我這個很好吃的這個什麼米 這個蠻好吃的我們在直播可不可以這樣做"},{"start":152.162,"end":173.404,"text":"可以嗎就是符合這個我們就符合這個嘛所以公民會會審查對不對會如果這符合這個好啦那現在如果AI用更隱密更針對性的方式投放我們要看譬如說一般民眾他唱AI去幹嘛資料查詢嘛像我去查楚門的世界或者聊天嘛跟聊天機的人講話甚至用它來製作一些影音那"},{"start":174.689,"end":202.687,"text":"閱聽者使用者他心裡是怎麼想他說AI至少是中立客觀的對不對他提供了給我的資訊至少是他掌握的資訊雖然有人說深層是AI是一本正經的胡說八道但是至少他應該只是自己胡說八道而已他不會幫人家刻意的去引導幫業主企業主去影響我現在AI的深層是內容如果有廣告組有企業主要求他去做廣告有沒有目前對他的強制介入或標示的規定"},{"start":203.027,"end":222.263,"text":"那我也問的問題涉及到兩個問題第一個就是說從公平會執法機關的角度來看我們如何去確認這個廣告是AI做的這個是一個不是 他的意思說你AI接受我的廣告之後你在AI生成的內容上幫閱聽大眾提供更多我要請你提供的資訊嘛"},{"start":222.964,"end":233.486,"text":"譬如問他說這個台灣哪裏的紅豆最好吃結果我們萬丹農會有跟AI說我跟你買個廣告你第一個就說屏東萬丹的紅豆最好吃"},{"start":234.67,"end":262.992,"text":"可不可以所以我剛剛談的就是說確認AI的意思就是說因為廣告到我們這邊來我們第一次看到的就是廣告那我們要確認說這個廣告是人播的AI提供的真實內容他不會說這是廣告因為你問他嘛所以我們要問的說這個以後會不會產生說只要有大的企業他對這些好往下看這三家最大的真實是AI的平台我說我給你下廣告請你們機器人在回答問題的時候多講我的好話可不可以"},{"start":263.888,"end":282.683,"text":"那如果說背後是有人在做這樣的操作的話那當然就是他對AI的訓練就是操作啊所以這個有可能會跟我們的見證廣告是有關係所以這個時候你們去查有沒有企業對這三大平台投放廣告請他們訓練他們的機器人AI機器人要多說他的好話那你們要去查他們對價關係你查得到嗎"},{"start":284.565,"end":312.179,"text":"我跟委員報告一下因為現在我們從最近開始我們在網路的這個廣告的監控上我們已經加入AI的監測你也用AI來監測嗎不是AI監測是委託我們在監測我們是外包給外面的機關來幫我們用魔法對付魔法對對對然後我們有特別要求他必須要針對AI這件事情來是所以我要告訴你說這三大平台如果開始接受業主投放廣告的時候我們問AI的問題可能背後你就要就查清楚他有沒有這個問題尤其這個平台如果是寡占呢"},{"start":312.719,"end":338.233,"text":"他的演算法是黑箱呢譬如說科技巨頭他掌握這三大平台我中小店家沒有地方可以投放廣告因為只有你們三個AI嘛所以我的廣告溢價權就一面倒嘛你說我要投放廣告多少錢就多少錢我要推銷萬彈的紅豆你說這個要兩百萬我拿不出兩百萬我就不能推銷萬彈的紅豆 是不是這樣子是 我們會在公平法的架構還有在處理原則裡面去做電信調查好 那再往下看那其實還有一個叫LINE"},{"start":339.229,"end":365.806,"text":"LINE其實也不過是一個 你會說聊天軟體嗎 可是你知道它台灣的滲透率是多少嗎99.7%耶 是所有最高的 你可以參加什麼它是台灣的超級平台什麼時候呢 它可以幫你做社交聯絡 還可以貼圖禮物還有金融服務 還有電子支付 LINE Pay還有商業應用 還有影音漫畫 還有甚至連視訊醫療現在衛福部建立的跨醫生視訊醫療如果你派到好愛工作了兩年"},{"start":366.306,"end":390.956,"text":"可是你這時候要回來看醫生或者說你慢性病處房間三個月到期了你可以怎麼辦你可以在海外利用當地的聯網然後透過LINE然後連接中華電信然後去跟台灣的醫院看病拿藥LINE很厲害耶 是不是這樣可是我們有辦法避開嗎現在你可以避開生活中避開LINE嗎你就算避得開你周邊的人避不開啊那它是不是構成了壓倒性的優勢是不是構成了獨佔"},{"start":393.579,"end":423.279,"text":"我想剛剛委員講的是正確就是社交至少在這個生態系當中當然LINE是以它的社交這個平台作為一個支點然後延伸到生態系各部分不過我們要注意的就是說在這樣的生態系當中LINE在不同的服務當中的市場力量是不一樣不是的就是因為它在每個個別的市場你都很難針對這個來說它沒有一個壟斷或壓倒性但是你在生活中LINE已經幾乎無所不包了我要用戶最多轉換的成本很高你現在叫我不要用LINE用別的我還受不了"},{"start":423.699,"end":444.6,"text":"還有他掌握了隱私資訊工程會要去想所以我們會看看是不是他利用這個社交聯絡的力量去做一個槓桿去把力量延伸到其他各位我們另外一個叫有線電視播放系統其實我們過去台灣為什麼有線電視的地方系統台他是把它當作準公用事業因為跟這個很像LINE的資訊流是不是要靠網路基礎設施政府提供嘛"},{"start":445.02,"end":469.456,"text":"那有建制嗎 沒有啊金流跟店家個人還有金融體育的金流這也是我們政府的資訊網路去提供的啊那政府在有限電視播放系統類似它的情況之下政府去進入管理喔 介入喔所以我們有限系統的執照是什麼 政府特許的嘛因為它具有準公用事業的性質我們往下看所以公平教育委員會目前你是對不公平競爭對廣告不實 你當個裁判吹哨對不對"},{"start":470.296,"end":491.986,"text":"但是未來如果有哪一個類似像LINE這樣的超級平台它有壓倒性的優勢它能掌握絕大多數人的隱私數據它還發展多元的業務公平的解放是什麼你還能純粹在那個裁判的角度來吹哨還是必須要為了確保這個公平競爭類似像高鐵的模式政府要不要入股來協助他的公司治理"},{"start":493.067,"end":513.979,"text":"我想委員提的這些問題都很前瞻啦但是這個可能在很多面向是跟公平會目前現在的執掌是不太符合的你目前還是裁判吹哨啦我們是事後的一個監管所以當你在監管這些之後事後監管你發現他這個趨勢的時候其實公平會不只要吹哨做判決還要吹哨做示警"},{"start":514.699,"end":542.698,"text":"要告訴政府 告訴社會如果CHAP GPT 深層式AI它可以接受大企業投放廣告影響到它深層的內容來給使用者的話那公平會要趕快的去了解有沒有能力用你的魔法來對付它的魔法 好不好是 是 這個我們持續再精進好 那最後問一下 人家都問我也不能不問目前通過上述 上游不供貨欸 諸位啊 這會不會有藉機囤貨烘台的可能啊"},{"start":543.22,"end":570.843,"text":"因為像刑法251條這是法務部的執掌公平教育法當然如果囤積掌握這個東西如果說有聯合壟斷的情形當然我們公平法也可以介入這個所謂價格的波動當然25條影響教育秩序在過去我們用這個條文處理物價的問題大部分都是在一個緊急狀態我們會就是事關民生重大的產品所以我今天提供這個機會就是說要分清楚"},{"start":571.303,"end":586.797,"text":"如果是延後出貨 那個囤貨過於烘台那是屬於刑法251 法務部去管那如果他透過聯合行為 立即的造成明顯的提高那才用到公交法的25條 有不一樣的分工那給你一個機會跟他說明 最後"},{"start":587.998,"end":604.469,"text":"署章 希望你嚴審這個併購案保護我們的外送員跟所有用戶的權益 好不好是 這個一定我們會詳細檢查好 那另外呢是不是比照你們的見證廣告的規範趕快去想要訂出深層式誒 誠又寫錯了深層式AI廣告的法規 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尤其是跟這個交易有關的 跟教育有關的部分這個我還是要勉勵 還是要拜託公平會我想在避免這一塊避免這一塊我們其實也都積極在做剛剛跟委員報告過 市詐也是我們的任務之一啦所以我們會帶我們業館的這個相關的事業裡面我們去宣導不要被網路上這些虛假的消息所誤導"},{"start":361.555,"end":388.737,"text":"所以這部分我們實際上也在做因為基本上我剛列舉的這些像投資就是交易所以這個部分你要到法務部那個是最後已經最後了已經被騙了那前面怎麼樣能夠去防範那更重要所以這個部分共同的這個不同的機關大家一起來努力來去減少真的是真的是這是我們"},{"start":389.798,"end":396.763,"text":"目前台灣最重要的一個部分之一了好不好好我們接下來"},{"start":398.459,"end":423.614,"text":"在你的報告裡面也有提到運作本會防治人為操縱物價專案小組裡面有對農畜儀產品小麥、麵粉、黃豆、沙阿油、桶裝瓦斯等等這些裡面去做這樣相關的這些民生物資價格及市場變化進行監測這個部分你們都在進行了"},{"start":424.834,"end":440.324,"text":"我想要你也請工評會去了解我們剛有提到桶裝瓦斯我看全國家用桶裝瓦斯的軍價查報的軍價這個從去年2025年10月之後一直往上"},{"start":450.465,"end":469.147,"text":"一直往上,2025年10月之後一直往上到2026年1月還要繼續往上所以這個部分也去了解一下到底是怎麼樣的因素因為那時候還沒有中東的戰爭"},{"start":473.221,"end":495.107,"text":"對不對?2025年10月還沒有這個戰爭所以不是因為這個油的問題也不是因為這些相關的這些跟瓦斯有關的那個部分所以這個部分是需要去了解好不好?跟委員報告一下,我們有觀察到這樣的趨勢事實上業務單位也都持續密切在注意當中"},{"start":495.567,"end":497.37,"text":"那如果有聯合烘台、聯合定價,我們會積極的進行調查"}]}},{"id":"167950","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e99c6db72ac1be1041db4e8dc12ee02550f073324919e7b6e4a3685e9cc37c4ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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委員長那現在中東戰火未歇而且不曉得還要再打多久那連帶影響國內物價現在菜市場一斤透明的塑膠袋已經從20元漲到25元這件事情陳主委知道嗎我知道"},{"start":35.208,"end":51.623,"text":"那你現在有什麼因應的辦法我們已經有進入初步先去了解一下整個市場的狀況包含塑膠袋的類型價格等等各方面資訊那因為我也知道現在經濟部已經在做市場全面的盤整我現在就問你你不要講經濟部我現在就問你公平會"},{"start":55.726,"end":74.199,"text":"現在有一些都缺貨了那代理主委既然有注意到你們有去主動調查說是不是有惡意囤積或者是有哄抬物價的這個監督機制呢從公平會的角度來看如果是聯合的惡意拒絕出貨這個就是構成聯合性貨你有去查嗎我現在就嚴重懷疑說公平會你是人手不足嗎我們不管問你什麼你都是被動的沒有任何事是值得你主動去調查嗎"},{"start":83.305,"end":104.1,"text":"沒有 這個像這個塑膠我們就主動有去調查只是因為現在經濟不好所以你們現在已經主動在調查主動在了解那你們現在有任何調查的跡象或結果嗎現在還在了解跟調查當中就像剛剛跟大家講我們調查的重點還是在於這個有沒有聯合聚集的出貨這個需要有點時間來蒐集是不是有這樣的事證我的意思是說如果你"},{"start":104.961,"end":131.184,"text":"主動調查可能還要再加上一些積極度因為如果你沒有敘述的掌握狀況的話等你調查完成這個事情搞不好也已經結束了船過水無痕所以我也希望說陳主委我想每一個委員都對你充滿期待希望說公平會能夠扮演好公平會存在的意義而不是一個只是好像買保險的單位"},{"start":132.685,"end":154.002,"text":"就是有也可以沒有也可以 你知道嗎所以我現在再提醒一下主委請問有注意到說日本的衛生紙之前就有因為民眾在網路上PO文然後引發恐慌那本席擔心類似的事件假設發生在台灣公平會有沒有什麼對策呢"},{"start":155.462,"end":184.564,"text":"衛生紙如果有聯合烘台價格當然這是公平會要去調查跟了解的那這是不是有假設這有沒有涉及不實的這個烘台價格啊烘台價格就是烘台價格但如果他有不實我不曉得什麼叫不實的所以你的意思是說這不歸公平會管沒有沒有我剛剛講過聯合烘台聯合定價這個當然是公平會要管那不實廣告是不實廣告所以就是你的意思是說像這種引發恐慌的事情呢"},{"start":185.967,"end":202.352,"text":"不歸公平匯管是這個意思嗎就是說衛生紙搶扣沒有衛生紙這都不歸你管沒有 引發恐慌如果是基於業者集體之間的一種杯葛或是拒絕從事交易特別囤貨聯合起來做的話這當然是公平匯要處理的聯合問題那你有密切在觀察這個事情嗎我們都隨時都有在觀察這關於民生物資我們平常都會注意到那個價格的波動"},{"start":211.014,"end":235.711,"text":"其实我也还蛮担心公平会的不管问你们什么你们感觉都好像在另一个平行世界里面就是没有办法理解我们在跟你沟通的一些内容那我再问就是前年Uber宣布要以9.5亿美元收购Full Panda台湾的业务那时候公平会耗时了200"},{"start":237.473,"end":257.029,"text":"25天那最後以防止壟斷唯有禁止了雙方結合結果這個禮拜呢換成東南亞的外送龍頭Grab要以6億收購Full Panda那從公平會專業的角度來看這兩起收購案相同與不相同之處在哪裡呢"},{"start":257.549,"end":267.941,"text":"因為這個案子還沒送進本會所以我現在初步問你嘛初步了解就是說有什麼一樣跟不一樣最大的不一樣是上個案子如果結合完成以後事實上就會高達九成"},{"start":268.953,"end":296.153,"text":"那這個案子完成結合以後還是維持兩家大的外送平台存在所以這是它最大的在市場結構上的不同如果真的要去看它的不同的地方的話是但是呢本席要提醒公平會注意一個關鍵背景Uber早在2018就將東南亞的業務賣給了Grab然後換取了一定比例的持股我想可能主委我知道你知道嘛"},{"start":297.034,"end":323.044,"text":"你清楚的話那你覺得說直到今天Uber能持有Grab約13%的股股份是最大的股東喔換句話說Uber雖然沒有親自收購成功但是卻由他持股的公司來買而且這個持股公司他還是最大的股東我並沒有說有任何預設的立場我只是希望說那公平會這一次"},{"start":324.824,"end":349.3,"text":"會怎麼樣判定Grab的營業獨立性然後會考量這層關係嗎我想分析的架構大概跟上次那個案子那個整個法律的架構是一樣的那這個案子我想剛剛委員所談到的那個持股的部分這個也是我們後續在審查會去判斷的不過附帶跟委員講一下這個13%是他持股但是持股對公司的控制跟影響因為他持股的類型不太一樣"},{"start":350.38,"end":360.29,"text":"我現在只是在提醒你所以你有在考量這層關係就非常好那我們再深入看Grab跟Uber 2018那次交易當時新加坡的競爭與消費委員會就對他們的交易案重罰了1300萬的新幣那兩家公司成為利益共同體"},{"start":373.042,"end":384.911,"text":"導致競爭又因消失了新加坡隨即出現了運費上漲 獎勵縮水的狀況所以我也希望說公平會要審慎考察當然我不是"},{"start":388.533,"end":412.39,"text":"有任何預設立場我希望公平會在整個審查的過程當中要廣納各界的意見設想各種可能必須針對消費者的權益跟市場的結構做出最有利的決定請教主委能做到嗎我想這個剛剛委員提到這一點都是我們在審查過程會去注意到了就跟如同上一次的案子一樣我們一定會多聽各方面的意見"},{"start":413.666,"end":436.702,"text":"那現在本席擔心的就是說假設未來Foodpanda真的被Grab收購了你們也同意了它的收購哪一天Grab在台灣也採取相同的模式宣布這個退出台灣市場然後把業務交給Uber那那個時候台灣的萬送市場不就徹底失去了競爭只剩下一家獨大公平會有考慮過這個可能性嗎"},{"start":438.263,"end":459.812,"text":"如果這個可能性發生 那就變成是回到兩家變一家的情況嗎是啊 所以這是一個簡單的經濟邏輯如果兩個競爭對手他背後的大股東其實是重疊的那他們在市場上就不會有強烈的動力去彼此競爭他們不需要聯合漲價喔他們只需要聯合不促銷 不折扣"},{"start":460.732,"end":486.738,"text":"是不是無法可乏這個就回到委員剛剛關切那個13%的問題那個13%的控制有沒有辦法強到讓對方完全亦步亦趨配合他的作為所以呢我就想請主委一定要針對這種有可能隱性的聯合行為做密切的觀察那最後提醒主委就是根據資策會的統計2025年曾使用外送服務的消費者比例"},{"start":488.658,"end":513.38,"text":"大概是有上千萬人在使用這個外送服務那公平會作為市場的守護者那本席也期許你們的決定可以做到店家有生意消費者權益有保護然後平台能夠維持競爭的多元局面有信心嗎委員關鍵問題都是我們在審查裡面會特別注意的好 加油謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":516.274,"end":519.737,"text":"好 那謝謝張家軍委員的質詢 謝謝主委接下來我們請鄭天才委員質詢好 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bwd6"},{"start":1480.64,"end":1481.734,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1525.165,"end":1543.649,"text":"好現在開會那今天就是針對國家安全法修法召開公聽會那行政院國家安全法草案你針對鼓吹戰爭言論徵令裁罰條款行政機關在裁罰時應如何區分危害國家安全之主觀故意"},{"start":1545.25,"end":1570.369,"text":"與單純政治表達自由在衛經法院審理程序下盡由行政機關認定言論違法並處以行政法是否有行政權介入司法權之餘另現行刑法外患罪以針對通謀開戰行為設有重懲國安法修法針對鼓吹戰爭言論增設行政法是否有其必要性又依司法院釋字第445號及644號解釋意旨"},{"start":1572.901,"end":1577.561,"text":"限制言論應以具備明顯而即刻之危險為前提"},{"start":1578.28,"end":1602.838,"text":"若對未達具體急迫的政治性言論處以重懲是否構成國家權力對言論範疇之過度干預等等相關議題都值得我們關切於討論因此我們今天特別舉辦第二場國家安全法修法公聽會聽取各位專家學者的意見我們會詳時記錄各位的高見並列入立法院公報記錄中作為國家安全法修法討論時的參考"},{"start":1607.665,"end":1631.762,"text":"那首先先介紹我們的專家學者初期委員以及政府機關代表那首先我們先介紹我們這個開南大學法律學系兼任副教授 蔣桂美教授還有我們陳立琳律師國立雲林科技大學科技法律研究所教授 楊志傑教授"},{"start":1633.953,"end":1660.336,"text":"台北海洋科技大學通識教育中心助理教授吳攝智教授傅欣怡律師廖國祥律師我們介紹出席的我們部會官員代表首先我們先介紹內政部政務次長馬政次我們警政署李文章副署長"},{"start":1662.113,"end":1688.753,"text":"刑事警察局林固婷副局長大陸委員會法政處周明瑞處長行政院外交國防法務處張志朋參議國家安全局第三處陳副處長國防部法律事務司軍法事務處胡耀仁副處長法務部檢察司張曉雯司長"},{"start":1691.138,"end":1715.914,"text":"主任檢察官白聖文主任檢察官司法院刑事廳顧正德副廳長吳元耀法官數位發展部法制處吳怡倫副處長職工安全署黃淑妮科長資源管理司葉信宇濟政"},{"start":1718.817,"end":1729.903,"text":"國家資通安全研究所研究院林恩志研究員好 今日公聽會的程序如下"},{"start":1731.277,"end":1752.682,"text":"先請部會簡短報告後再請學者專家發言依出席簽到順序為原則每位發言時間為8分鐘本院委員如要發言請至主席台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為5分鐘最後再由與會的機關代表回應說明"},{"start":1754.401,"end":1779.293,"text":"發言台正前方的燈號是倒數這個倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言時間結束則按鈴兩聲那我們補充補充介紹一下是不是那個我們東吳大學政治學系的教授謝正裕教授那我們現在請部會報告我們先請內政部報告"},{"start":1794.034,"end":1809.847,"text":"主席還有我們在座各位學者專家以及我們各單位的同仁先進以及媒體記者女士先生大家早安今天很榮幸我們代表內政部來跟各位說明我們對於國家安全法修法的一個立場"},{"start":1811.564,"end":1831.972,"text":"首先我想我們今天在座有非常多的教授跟專家學問應該都比我好那麼也會有很高深的見解內政部在今天的報告裡面我們只希望請大家面對一個事實的問題也就是說台灣今天我們有股市三萬點"},{"start":1833.584,"end":1861.229,"text":"主要的原因在於我們有自由民主的體制還有經濟讓我們有活力跟動能來維持我們現在這樣的一個社會制度那麼我要講的事實是我們在理論上我們有很多的主張我想內政部我們也收集了不同的意見但是我們要看到的是我們的對手是誰"},{"start":1862.557,"end":1889.838,"text":"今天會修國家安全法它的原因是在於我們的對手我們的境外敵人勢力已經跟過去完全不同那麼這個境外敵人勢力也就是目前的北京政權是一個劣跡斑斑的政權在人權在智慧財產權"},{"start":1891.59,"end":1917.998,"text":"在國際的戰略地緣政治上有各式各樣侵略的舉動尤其是對於台灣那麼我們曉得以往中國對台灣有所謂的三戰第一個叫輿論戰再來心理戰跟法律戰我們現在的對手除了三戰之外還有新的兩個戰法"},{"start":1919.724,"end":1941.197,"text":"第一個戰法叫錯位戰也就是將我們原本制度上面合理的正確的設計用各種方法讓他錯位讓他沒有辦法正常的運轉我們現在看看我們的政府機關跟國會之間的關係看看我們現在很多的爭議都是來自於這樣的一個錯位戰所導致的"},{"start":1943.53,"end":1961.446,"text":"第五個戰法叫侵蝕戰你就用各種方式侵蝕台灣民主自由的基礎這個已經不是我們在理論上所看到的而是每一天我們都在社會的每一個角落直接上演"},{"start":1962.526,"end":1987.006,"text":"尤其是敵方的代理人在台灣張牙舞爪用我們的民主自由制度上面的寬容跟寬厚來攻擊我們所以國家安全法的修法很多人認為它是對於自由的言論自由的箝制是對於民眾政治自由表達的限制"},{"start":1987.987,"end":2017.032,"text":"其實這是一個完全的誤解而且這是一個不切實際的文青的幻想因為我們現在要做的事情是要讓敵人的攻擊的成本提高提高我們的嚇阻力所以國家安全法的修法是在彌補我們在我們的國家的免疫系統能夠提升我們的防護能力"},{"start":2019.073,"end":2033.526,"text":"我想大家都知道如果今天我們的家人受到外在的威脅有人威脅要殺全家大家會去警察局報案會心生恐懼如果有民眾在"},{"start":2035.287,"end":2056.808,"text":"媒體上說要到捷運去放火要去做這個無差別的攻擊它是公共危險它是所謂的公眾的恐嚇一樣有刑責那麼對於個人家庭對於社會公眾運輸系統的這樣的恐嚇都構成犯罪"},{"start":2058.015,"end":2074.164,"text":"何況是對於國家的攻擊對於我們的民主政體要進行侵略這樣的一個言論而沒有任何的罰則也沒有任何的限制這個是不符合我們現況的不符合現實狀態的所以"},{"start":2077.389,"end":2104.263,"text":"在整個華人文化圈裡面其實台灣保留了幾千年的文化的傳統我們保留了傳統的文字我們保留了我們的宗教自由我們保有了非常優良的價值系統這個跟我們的對岸它本身本質就是一個法西斯納粹政權完全不同那麼中國大陸目前的北京政權"},{"start":2105.987,"end":2115.433,"text":"常常一本政經說瞎話他說他們是抵抗法西斯政權其實他們自己就是他指責別的國家"},{"start":2116.88,"end":2143.049,"text":"事實上所指責的內容都是他自己正在做的事情所以我們保有台灣的民主自由制度宗教自由制度經濟自由制度事實上就是提供華人文化圈未來發展一個最重要的標杆這個是我們責無旁貸的責任所以國家安全法的修法其實它的整個架構並不應該局限於一個"},{"start":2144.671,"end":2153.443,"text":"小規模小層次的這樣的一個對於特定言論的限制的討論而是要用宏觀的角度來看這件事情"},{"start":2154.249,"end":2172.122,"text":"那麼全世界的民主國家都面臨一樣的威脅灰色地帶的威脅從內部瓦解等等這些方法那麼我們都每天都看到所以我們希望社會跟我們的國會委員們能夠賦予我們"},{"start":2175.064,"end":2190.695,"text":"新的責任跟新的制度來抵抗這樣的一個侵略我再次強調國家安全法的修法並不是要前置民眾的政治表達跟言論自由而是要提高敵人攻擊的成本"},{"start":2193.697,"end":2206.622,"text":"讓這個法律能夠嚇阻我們的民主自由制度的一個崩壞我想這個是我們最主要的一個原因那也代表內政部跟行政部門在這個地方跟各位做這樣的一個報告 謝謝大家好 接下來我們請陸委會報告"},{"start":2232.193,"end":2250.246,"text":"主席各位專家學者先進各位女士各位先生承蒙貴委員會邀請陸委會出席本次國家安全法公聽會以下請針對本會的說明敬請各界指教"},{"start":2252.366,"end":2279.089,"text":"第一 相关行政行为均符合法定程序及权利分立原则本会认为单纯的政治意见表达系公民基于对公共事务的关心所谓之评论建议或立场宣誓属于宪法保障之言论自由范畴为基于公正公约第20条要求应该以法律禁止鼓吹战争之言论"},{"start":2280.174,"end":2303.561,"text":"所以行政院的版本國安法的修正草案它是以公開鼓吹、倡議或支持為要件行為人堂主觀上對實施相關行為有認知客觀上有具體行為即以構成違反規定並非單純的意見表達的範疇而且行政法的設置"},{"start":2304.628,"end":2317.185,"text":"是針對此類具備危害意圖的公開行為進行及時的管理確保國家安全防護網的有效性相關行政處分均需依據具體的事證"},{"start":2318.602,"end":2342.629,"text":"並符合行政程序法的正當程序受處分者亦得依法提起訴願及行政訴訟由司法機關進行最終的實質審查確保行政權行使之界限並無行政權僭越司法權之疑慮第二行政法得及時因應複合式威脅以穩定社會民心"},{"start":2344.468,"end":2372.614,"text":"鉴于当前境外势力渗透手法日益复杂且多元传统刑事门槛有其侦审上的局限性难以应对快速变迁的复合式威胁行政院版的草案《侦涉行政法》是为了填补现行法治的真空地带针对尚未达到刑事犯罪门槛但足以干扰社会稳定的行为提供政府适当的处置工具"},{"start":2373.777,"end":2397.947,"text":"此舉能有效精確切斷滲透鏈,確保國家主權與社會的安定。另外,公正公約第20條第一項規定,任何鼓吹戰爭的宣傳應以法律禁止之。聯合國人權事務委員會認為,上開禁止措施與該公約第19條規範之言論自由權完全相容。"},{"start":2399.541,"end":2424.483,"text":"顯示以法律禁止鼓吹戰爭言論並沒有侵害言論自由的問題且我國定有兩公約施行法相關立法當然有其必要性第三面對國家安全挑戰民主防衛機制確實有其必要當前國家安全所面臨的挑戰已與過往截然不同"},{"start":2425.526,"end":2436.993,"text":"面對境外敵對勢力日益嚴峻的威脅法治環境確實有與時俱進的必要雖然司法院釋字第45號及第644號解釋強調限制言論應以明顯及克制危險為衡量標準"},{"start":2444.83,"end":2471.999,"text":"然鼓吹战争言论对国家主权维护其社会秩序维持的伤害恐有连锁效应言论扩散致民心不稳社会不安从而导致具体实害发生往往在瞬息之间若能透过修法增定各为具体明确的客观要件不仅能落实事件的精神更能及早築起民主社会的防卫网"},{"start":2472.958,"end":2496.897,"text":"此舉除保障正當公民權利外亦能建構符合現代需求的專業防衛法制與危險真正發生前落實預警與防堵第四強化數位空間管理與建立網路平台協力機制隨著數位技術與社群媒體成為境外勢力滲透的新領域"},{"start":2498.277,"end":2515.302,"text":"政府必須補強網路數位空間的安全維護機制針對相關違法資訊的處理院版草案規劃由內政部會同相關主管機關建立跨部會會商機制原則上並非由單一機關進行認定"},{"start":2517.54,"end":2541.141,"text":"以确保处分的专业性与客观性前草案内容系参着现行其他法令有关网络下架的机制可任性兼顾国家安全与言论自由并可借事后的救济程序由司法加以审查五同步精进维护国家安全与保障言论自由的法制"},{"start":2542.85,"end":2549.064,"text":"維護國家安全與保障言論自由並非互斥而是相輔相成的憲法價值"},{"start":2550.404,"end":2571.991,"text":"不能因為保障言論自由就讓國安需求無限退讓透過法律制度的與時俱進更能精進地界定權力行使之邊界政府在完善國家法律的過程中始終秉持守護民主體制的初衷確保在防範境外勢力干擾的同時"},{"start":2573.271,"end":2599.889,"text":"亦能落實對公民表達權力的尊重此種修法方向不僅有效懲治不法更能凝聚全民守護民主自由之共識德國威馬憲法下納粹崛起的歷史正是提醒我們要記取經驗避免境外敵對勢力以民主機制掩護其破壞民主的行為中上本次行政院版的草案"},{"start":2600.987,"end":2626.236,"text":"主要是為了接軌國際規範補強現行法規的漏洞的必要舉措守護台灣的自由民主體制是全民的最大公約數我們希望在行政與立法部門協力的推動下得以確保國家在面對外部挑戰時具備充足且正當的應對機制以上報告敬請各位先進指教"},{"start":2633.513,"end":2661.546,"text":"其他單位的報告請自行參閱並刊登公報接著請專家學者發言我們按出席簽到順序第一位我們請這個廖國祥發言主席各位先進大家好我是廖國祥律師名字有時候會跟我們今天的主席搞混"},{"start":2662.472,"end":2674.822,"text":"今天不是李貞秀代理主席了嗎對不對很可惜啊今天這一場公聽會的主題就跟李貞秀有關係啊所以多希望他今天坐在主席台上聽大家怎麼樣好好說一下好"},{"start":2676.223,"end":2692.98,"text":"我們今天來說我們必須要正視一個事實境外敵對勢力對台灣的滲透已經深入到社會各個角落了根據國安局的統計2024年因為共諜案起訴的人數就有64個人是三年前的三倍之多"},{"start":2693.681,"end":2706.375,"text":"中共正透過黑道幫派、地下錢莊、公廟團體、民間社團種種各式各樣的手段管道對我國人民、對我國各個單位進行吸納、進行滲透"},{"start":2708.902,"end":2722.808,"text":"大家昨天有看徐春英的起訴書對不對內容非常的精彩啊難道又是科幻小說嗎上一部說是科幻小說的今天下午要選判我這邊沒有要離題啊我這邊沒有離題因為徐春英的起訴書"},{"start":2724.281,"end":2744.015,"text":"我們看了之後就知道中國的腎痛有多嚴重了這個跟大院跟立法院有非常大的關係喔尤其我們今天是在內政委員會內政委員會就有一位共諜指定的接班人就是李真秀啊我們說話又有憑有據所以我來念一段起訴書的對話給大家聽喔那個"},{"start":2748.313,"end":2773.478,"text":"孫憲 上海統促會副主任他說李貞秀接班應該沒問題了吧徐春英說我下週會和民眾黨社發部主任碰面年底的活動是他們應該會要求李貞秀參與哇 你們看連立法院 連內政委員會都有共諜的指定接班人參與了國安法難道沒有修法的必要性嗎我們講回來"},{"start":2776.624,"end":2789.006,"text":"許多修法的聲音都質疑說由行政機關認定言論違法然後處以行政法等等的有沒有僭越司法權有沒有違反人權我們首先要先搞清楚一件事情"},{"start":2790.32,"end":2818.719,"text":"違反法律上義務的制裁究竟要採刑事法還是採行政法這是立法裁量的權限這在司法院釋字第517號解釋已經清楚說明了那採取行政法的規範依照行政法法的規定本來就是由行政機關去進行事實調查跟裁處啊你要說這是違憲那難道現在種種的行政法成千上萬的行政法全部都是違憲嗎交通罰單也違憲嗎"},{"start":2820.861,"end":2849.224,"text":"更重要的是行政機關行使裁罰權之後受處剩的人如果不服的話依照訴願依照行聖訴訟法提起救濟行政機關做成主份最終人應該由司法機關進行實質的調查確保行政權行使的界限有沒有違反法律的界面有沒有違反憲法上面的人權保障那事實上這次國安法的草案裡面他效果算採取行政法而不是刑事法事實上呢"},{"start":2849.804,"end":2873.904,"text":"反而是已經減輕了對人民權利的侵害了是採取對人民侵害較小的手段那當前的國安其實也已經不局限於實體的國界實體的邊界了隨著數位技術的發展隨著社群媒體的發展這都是境外敵對勢力滲透了一個新領域所以政府當然也必須要去補強所謂的數位網路空間的安全維護機制"},{"start":2875.396,"end":2894.793,"text":"那我們必須當面去面對的是什麼我們現在必須直接面對的是什麼是言論自由的保障跟國家安全的橫貧問題提綱引用了司法院4-45號跟6-44號解釋主張說限制言論自由應該以明顯而立即的危險為前提"},{"start":2895.313,"end":2919.173,"text":"但是其實這個明顯而立即危險的標準是對於事前限制人民言論自由表現自由的一個核限要件核限的基準跟這次修法是針對你已經說出來的話已經鼓吹戰爭行為已經鼓吹戰爭行為的言論這個是事後的處罰這是完全不同的兩件事情不應該混淆言論自由的核心是什麼"},{"start":2919.973,"end":2942.54,"text":"應該是要促進公眾思辨、溝通意見跟尋求真理而不是淪為散播仇恨跟鼓吹戰爭的工具啊尤其是我們看內政部的報告也指出了正常言論自由的範圍對時事政務的評論都不在本次國安法修法的涵括範圍在內所以並不存在所謂的羅織罪名、箝制言論自由整種的批判"},{"start":2943.26,"end":2958.529,"text":"只有當言論已經達到鼓吹戰爭的程度已經在協助境外敵對勢力去鼓吹戰爭的時候才會因為他已經不具備所謂的公共思辨的意涵而是單純的鼓吹仇恨"},{"start":2958.949,"end":2984.364,"text":"鼓吹戰爭這個時候當然就不能以言論自由政治表意自由來阻卻違法憲法法庭113年憲判制第三號判決也指出了國家當然應該給予言論自由最大限度的保障但也不意味著任何的言論均該是受絕對的保障在符合憲法第二三條的限制之下要件之下還是可以對言論自由進行一定的管制跟限制"},{"start":2984.924,"end":3004.89,"text":"尤其公民與政治權利國際公約第20條第一項也明確規定了任何鼓吹戰爭的宣傳應該以法律禁止因此本次的修法也是完全符合並且是在履行國際公約的要求那最後講一下所謂的封網很多人在傳封網等於獨裁這個之前吵過了"},{"start":3005.93,"end":3021.72,"text":"詐騙的封網他們當時也說這是獨裁那事實上呢證實了執行的封網的動作之後確實詐騙的流量詐騙的數量也顯著的下降了那尤其是在所謂的封網底下還是必須要嚴守行政程序法的相關規範"},{"start":3023.041,"end":3047.925,"text":"行政機關進行各種的行政程序的時候本來就應該依照行政法去進行採取進行行政管制對當事人一切的正當法律程序的保障全部都是依法為之並且受到法院事後的檢查那此外在比較法上面包含德國的數位服務法網路執行法都明確授權行政機關請注意是行政機關設立數位服務協調機構來審查包含假訊息煽動仇恨言論在內的違法內容"},{"start":3052.646,"end":3072.467,"text":"所以說並沒有所謂的由行政機關進行一個網路的言論的一個事後的追審就是所謂的獨裁這完全是不符合現實的而且甚至也反於目前世衛世衛時代下防衛民主秩序的一個要求"},{"start":3074.206,"end":3094.719,"text":"維護國家的安全保障跟言論自由並沒有完全排斥是相輔相成的一個憲法的價值必須要有國家存在才能實現人民言論自由的權利那針對境外敵對勢力這樣各式各樣的干擾現行法制當然是需要一定的對應措施那所以說我完全的支持這一次的國安法的修正謝謝"},{"start":3104.414,"end":3106.595,"text":"好接下來我們請陳麗玲發言主席各位委員還有各位先進我是陳麗玲律師同時也是新黨的發言人那今天來這邊特別討論到有關國家安全法修法的狀況我要特別跟各位報告國家安全法的修法事實上造成了"},{"start":3132.164,"end":3159.535,"text":"這個新黨有三位年輕人在六年以前因為一個國安法的修法說我們有發起組織的問題因此被限制出境了五年多也因此導致這些年輕人有的35歲才結婚那這樣的一個國安法的一個修正事實上對我們這個新黨來說其實是一個非常非常諷刺因為到最後經過六年的審理"},{"start":3160.595,"end":3180.765,"text":"法院判決無罪確定而這三位年輕人的這個青春總共是18年已經不復返所以今天在這邊討論國家安全法修法的部分我們要特別針對行政院提的這個版本來提出我們法律上專業的意見第一個是有關於這個"},{"start":3181.986,"end":3210.095,"text":"法律明確性原則的部分事實上在這個之前有關於國安法第二條修正發起資助主持操縱指揮或發展組織就已經這個是非常的不明確需要透過法院事後的這個調查來補足他的這個構成要件那現在又增加說足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定那事實上國安法的第一條就已經規定了"},{"start":3211.435,"end":3227.006,"text":"這個叫做畫蛇天竺更重要的是其實它是什麼它是要藉這個來過渡到第二條是參與前項組織因為他不敢直接寫所以就把這個直接參直接危害國家安全的部分"},{"start":3227.947,"end":3246.766,"text":"把用這個偷渡到這個參與前項組織各位試問內政部我們現在有多少的人民團體是屬於兩岸交流團體剛剛這個律師特別提到說這個徐春英他因為什麼上海的這個部分徐春英的這個就是因為他有某個協會的這個通聯記"},{"start":3249.708,"end":3271.217,"text":"電話被監聽因此後來被起訴但是我要說明的是如果我們只是兩岸正常的交往在我們一中憲法的狀況之下在兩岸人民條例還沒有修正的情形之下請問兩岸人民交流何罪之有為什麼要用國安法這樣一個不確定的這樣的一個"},{"start":3272.037,"end":3301.124,"text":"名號靠在這些人的頭上這是第二點第三點是什麼看法條之後越看越恐怖為什麼因為第四條特別提到說任何人不得以文字圖畫聲音言語影像電子紀錄或他法公開鼓吹倡議或支持外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力對我發動戰爭及採取非和平手段消滅我國主權我看了之後第一個是任何人"},{"start":3303.915,"end":3319.963,"text":"這個任何人包含你我我想請問一下最近在網路上非常紅的一條視頻是大陸的這個國台辦的發言人在昨天說以後可以這個自駕遊到北京"},{"start":3321.244,"end":3345.821,"text":"那很多人就開始瘋狂的轉發那請問如果這有人就說那兩岸統一之後我們就可以我們就可以這個或者有人說那統一後來後面就有人說那就統一和平統一不可能那是不是就直接用武統那武統之後我們就可以自駕遊到北京那請問他在這下面的留言是不是有所謂的用文字"},{"start":3346.541,"end":3363.975,"text":"來公開鼓吹這個支持大陸地區對我發動戰爭那更不要談什麼請問網路上面的八炯閩南郎的這些言論是不是主張兩岸武統更不要說什麼賴清德總統"},{"start":3365.316,"end":3380.587,"text":"在之前也就不過兩個月之前他說什麼2027這個中國也就是大陸要對我們發動武統後來趕快在他的這個這個正式的這個文版裡面做了相關的修正"},{"start":3381.628,"end":3397.515,"text":"這些是不是屬於國家我們這次國安法裡面修正的範圍所以就這些言論來說事實上是大大的前置了我們的言論自由更何況什麼現在網路上面會寫作文的人太多了"},{"start":3398.115,"end":3411.521,"text":"每次來公開這個發表一些所謂的栽贓的虛假的虛偽言論當什麼當山人成虎當這個雞飛成勢的時候這些言論我們要如何加以審查"},{"start":3412.622,"end":3440.331,"text":"我想台灣跟所謂的極權國家最大的一個不同是什麼是我們是一個高度言論自由的國家如果說要透過這樣的一個言論自由的一個前置這邊特別提到說第四條的第三項說經過內政部會商法務部大陸委會及相關機關認定違反前項規定要處十萬到一百萬以下的罰款這是行政法"},{"start":3440.851,"end":3464.127,"text":"那這個立法單位說對因為行政法相較於這個刑法來說他是所謂刑法遷移性的一個原則所以沒有什麼侵害到人權各位很可怕為什麼因為行政機關他的什麼行政裁量權叫什麼我們法律上面的法官的這樣的一個裁定的一個權利來的什麼更寬廣"},{"start":3466.889,"end":3482.965,"text":"所以今天只要內政部跟這個陸委會認為說你這言論是屬於主張武統然後接下來你就可能接到一張十萬到一百萬的一個罰單那這個接下來你要幹嘛你要進行相關的訴願行政訴訟等等程序"},{"start":3483.766,"end":3512.204,"text":"所以我們認為說行政機關他在認定的時候我們絕對不容許這樣的空白授權讓什麼讓法律的明確性原則蕩然無存所以這個部分我個人認為說所謂的這個第四條的一個規定所謂的實體空間跟網路空間的這個部分應該就是直接維持原條文而這個增加的這個部分事實上是多此一舉"},{"start":3513.084,"end":3531.854,"text":"再來有關於這個第四條之一也就是所謂封網的部分我想這個封鎖網路是這個民進黨政府之前一直在嘲笑這個大陸說他們在大陸不能用FB在大陸不能上YouTube"},{"start":3532.782,"end":3557.063,"text":"那如果說今天也授權了相關的機關可以進行封網的話我想對言令自由的前置是十分十分的巨大更不要說什麼在我們這個在這個後續有關於這個公務人員他參與了這個假設有違反本法的規定他的這個信奉是要被先扣50%"},{"start":3558.624,"end":3573.346,"text":"各位如果他是一個基層的一個公務員他的薪水也只有多少也只有兩萬多塊不到三萬塊那你要給他扣一半他一個月只有一萬五千塊請問他能夠生活嗎"},{"start":3574.167,"end":3597.198,"text":"所以我認為說這樣這些修法都是什麼損害人民的權益 前置言論自由也前置新聞報導自由這樣的一個國安法修正如果真的要修正 請民進黨大力推動什麼修憲 宣布台灣獨立不要讓我們的國安法成為前置人民主張統一這個言論的一個場域 謝謝"},{"start":3606.07,"end":3615.162,"text":"先向前兩位發言的朋友致歉,因為剛剛名單上面沒有給我這個稱謂,抱歉這兩位律師不好意思,那第三位我們請傅欣儀律師發言"},{"start":3625.356,"end":3649.19,"text":"主席以及各位與會的先進然後還有就是各位委員大家早安那我想我今天我就先跟大家報告我對於看這一個議案的結論其實我本人也是對於內政部的行政院的修法提案還有方才內政部跟入委會的說明這邊我也是競表贊同然後理由的話我稍後我就先在以下案的時間跟大家報告"},{"start":3649.97,"end":3675.362,"text":"一開始呢 方才那個廖律師有跟大家講到我們國內的一個政治新聞那我在這邊 我想要先以一個國外的一個真實的個案來跟大家來做一個引言那 呃 陳茹我在Pawpoint上面我有那個那個整理出這個個案的摘要在2016年的1月11號 有一位叫做呃 就是她是那個那個惡 那個她是惡德醫的那個一個青少女"},{"start":3675.982,"end":3682.786,"text":"然後呢他被新聞報導說他遭強制就他被那個他被性侵害然後他被擄走被性侵害了很長一段時間然後消失了30小時然後這個新聞呢其實一開始在報導的時候因為大家都不曉得那個真偽嘛因為總是故事出來了然後呢在1月16號就是在一週以內呢"},{"start":3703.82,"end":3710.984,"text":"有一個駐德的俄國的新聞媒體叫做Channel One然後他就大肆的報導就是說你看啊這個就是德國的一個問題就是因為畢竟就是有一個"},{"start":3720.37,"end":3739.464,"text":"青少女然後發生這樣的事情然後結果很快的德國司的外長就是等同於我們的外交部長這個概念他就是在親自的外交場合就是點名這個案件希望德國政府說明說為什麼會有一個就是有一個二一的一個少女居然在德國發生這個事情然後請德國說明然後很長一段時間後來經過刑法上的調查後才發現到說烏龍案"},{"start":3746.289,"end":3766.663,"text":"就這個少女呢其實就是因為有一個家庭事件然後離家然後當然也跟一些青少年在一起那這個事件呢曾經就是在德國也有講到說那是不是這個俄國的Channel 1涉及到德國的那個煽動罪就是影響因為是德國的外交部長把這個變成一個外交層級的案件"},{"start":3769.025,"end":3782.792,"text":"所以我想我們說見為知著就是小事有可能變大事那這個在德國就是一個真實的案例而且影響到後來的德國說法我在稍後的PowerPoint也會跟大家報告那這個案件其實為什麼會"},{"start":3784.473,"end":3799.622,"text":"為什麼會促成德國的一個行政法制的一個修法的原因是因為後來發現到事實的真偽已經長達了很久一段時間大家都知道說刑事失望程序必須要進行很嚴格的偵查跟審判的流程耗時往往數年"},{"start":3800.563,"end":3823.43,"text":"那我們在這麼短的時間就能夠導致一個外交甚至升級到國安危害的一個事件是不是也應該要有一個行政的管制措施所以呢這個個案在2016年發生2017年德國他們就通過一部法律就是我在上面有那個就有秀的這一個這個簡稱然後就是希望說呢如果說有相關媒體遇到這樣的狀況然後也應該要有"},{"start":3827.091,"end":3852.8,"text":"移除違法的一個言論的一個義務然後違法的罰則最高五千萬歐元如果換算現在的貨幣大概十八億台幣左右然後這個是一個基本的一個概念那當然我們知道因為台灣呢其實國際地位曖昧然後我們也有所謂的就是有所謂的飛彈一直在我國上空巡迴的一個就是一個境外的一個國家"},{"start":3853.34,"end":3871.465,"text":"那在這邊的話呢我們其實面對這個問題其實比德國更加險峻所以我就回歸剩下的剩下的四分鐘我就回歸我們本案的這個四個議題第一個議題如何區分國安的主觀故意跟政治表達自由還有今天我們的國安法的修法以行政法"},{"start":3872.666,"end":3881.175,"text":"來處理個案是不是有逾越到司法的權限好那第一個就我想來看如果我們涉及到一個法律的標準的話我們還是要去回歸到比較比較細緻化的一個內涵第一個要先看它的內容"},{"start":3887.342,"end":3897.414,"text":"是不是有所謂的就是推翻我國的一個就是一個憲政秩序的危機第二個就是我們要看它是不是有一個反復性組織化的規模那當然如果是偶發性的表達就單純個人的政治意見評述的話當然我們也是要表達言論自由的那我們也是要看它的脈絡還有它有沒有涉及到境外勢力的一個問題"},{"start":3908.3,"end":3936.238,"text":"所以在這邊的話呢這個就是誠如我方還跟各位報告的如果是個人意見的表述或是個人對於政治的諷刺跟批評的話我們當然就是台灣是一個言論自由的國家我們要保障我們的國人言論自由但是如果有歡迎境外武力就是甚至到動員發動就是說就是以境外的資助然後來宣揚我們台灣要放棄主權然後就是要跟他國就是要跟他國融為一體然後"},{"start":3937.719,"end":3952.273,"text":"必須失去了我們台灣或是中華民國的一個主權的話我想這個的話就應該是已經危害到我們的國安了好然後那接下來我們來看就是有關於行政法跟司法權呢依照大法官解釋有講到說如果保護法義跟"},{"start":3953.413,"end":3976.402,"text":"還有裁罰性質不同還有只要行政的裁罰能夠通過比例原則的審查其實這些都是合法的那我們來看稅捐基金法的概念也是今天逃漏稅有行政法有刑事法只要他的處罰目的範圍項目不同其實這個並沒有任何的衝突而且也有誠如方才各位先進也有講到的依照國際公約我想我們的草案其實是有符合到國際公約的標準"},{"start":3977.862,"end":4006.821,"text":"然後那至於刑法外患罪跟行政法有沒有一事不二法我想就從這個POINT我們可以很簡單的看到外患罪這個是已經結合境外勢力已經是有通謀開戰的這個前提如果要到達這個前提國家才能夠介入的話我想這個大家應該住在國內也都會非常的害怕所以反而是國安法我們在前階段有一個行政法然後而且在處罰的制裁強度大家可以看到刑法是死刑無期徒刑"},{"start":4007.921,"end":4030.161,"text":"動輒就要判處國人死刑無期徒刑的話這反而是更加嚴峻所以反而是有一個行政法的一個中間介入的處置反而是對國家的一個安全還有一個制裁反而是一個比較合乎比例原則的一個效益好然後那接下來那為什麼我會特別的表達說為什麼刑事法沒有辦法取代行政法是因為刑事法是真的曠日費是舉證困難"},{"start":4032.123,"end":4056.764,"text":"所以這個部分我們在國安法修法還是有其必要性那所謂明顯而立即的危險方才其實廖律師也有講到4至445號跟644號它其實是一個針對事前的集會遊行跟集會結社的一個事前審查那我們今天國安法其實是針對一個已經發生的事情要來做一個行政裁罰我想這個應該是不同的標準的好然後那不同的標準那當然也是要符合比例原則的審查"},{"start":4057.825,"end":4079.798,"text":"那我在這邊的話我個人我是針對比例原則的審查我是提出有那個五層次的方案那當然也是希望如果未來這個草案通過以後行政的裁量也更能夠細緻跟具體化好然後那有關封網的話呢我想其實只要國家是依法行政封網我就舉個例子好了大家手機應該都有在SNS上Block"},{"start":4084.602,"end":4097.789,"text":"不恰當的言論過吧或是不恰當的電話吧就防止自己被詐騙之類的所以其實所謂的封網我想我們也不應該把它給污名化那甚至我們其實我們講的終止網路的措施那當然我也承認它必須要有比較高的門檻比較高的標準然後我在這邊的話呢有關比較法的制度我在這邊的話我在我比較詳細的文字的說明就大家可以參照一些國外的一個法治規範"},{"start":4111.536,"end":4122.284,"text":"好然後那以上呢是我的大概的粗淺說明然後我的文字說明跟我的提綱意見就是有這以下的五點結論然後再請大家詳談我的文字論述謝謝下一位我們請吳攝智助理教授"},{"start":4139.562,"end":4164.19,"text":"主席還有各位在座的協助監禁我想我今天我先講我個人對修法的意見我的立場我是非常支持這樣的修法為什麼支持?當然我們知道法律作為底線它無法面臨當前的挑戰那我們何來談權利跟義務甚至民主跟自由的議題首先"},{"start":4165.236,"end":4187.826,"text":"我想我們所面臨的挑戰,如剛剛其實部會的相關的一個報告內容都已經提到了我們所面對的挑戰是,我認為這樣的一個無形的戰爭或無煙消的戰爭其實已經在台灣打起來了,應該說已經在我們身邊開打了那我們面對的是一個這個滲透或這個挑戰,這針對國安的挑戰不是單純的軍事上的一個問題"},{"start":4188.806,"end":4215.686,"text":"也不只是說因為我們談了民主自由但是民主自由卻成了敵方進行內部滲透的一個窗口另外我們面對這樣的一個混合戰包括從軍事包括從經濟包括從我們的政治體制所面臨這樣的挑戰我們必須要提高我們的所謂的防護或者是在我們說的防禦的盾牌必須要有所升級"},{"start":4216.748,"end":4217.191,"text":"那為什麼我們要"},{"start":4226.119,"end":4254.994,"text":"為什麼要修法 因為過去我們談的單一的實體挑戰但是我們現在面臨的是複合的灰色威脅 複合性的挑戰包括網路滲透 認知作戰 以及在地的協力者那麼我們的過去的舊法 就是我們國安法過去的舊法我們的盲區是什麼 對於單純參與組織的這樣的一個相關的一個法則是沒有的另外的 中間人斷點也很難去追尋以及主觀意圖的舉證是有困難的"},{"start":4263.11,"end":4279.582,"text":"因為這樣的一個複合式的威脅,我們看到組織的滲透、政治作戰以及產生所謂的心理的這個政策,使得我們目前的法規已經沒有辦法提供面對這樣的一個新形式的挑戰,提供全面性的防護。"},{"start":4284.269,"end":4293.37,"text":"那我們現在目前的國安法所現行的防禦機制的盲區包括我們剛才提到舉證的困難 尤其是所謂的"},{"start":4293.952,"end":4304.655,"text":"主觀範議這部分那再來是單純的參與者以及中間者在這所有不管是參與或是發起組織發展我們現在目前是處理這樣的一個組織者但是對於中間比如說轉交資金還有單純的伺機而動的這些參與者並沒有明確相關的罰則依據再來是我們這個實質的防護跟懲罰"},{"start":4319.358,"end":4333.805,"text":"我們要等到這個所謂的有罪判決確定後才能把所有的這個所謂的針對這個軍公教人員的這個退休金才有辦法去完全把它退奉把它完全討回基本上"},{"start":4334.386,"end":4352.531,"text":"這使得在斷路上的防務機制是沒辦法彰顯那在網路的錯假訊息也是有面對這樣的問題那我們在舊法跟新法上的差別從這個規範的維度來看包括犯罪認定的標準在舊法在主觀意圖的危害舉證是比較困難的那新法的修訂他採納了"},{"start":4353.431,"end":4363.775,"text":"把客觀達到危險臨界點來做一個明確的修法內容的補充在防禦的打擊範圍之內過去針對僅限於發展組織跟洩密我們擴及到單純的參與組織斬斷了中間人相關執行跟執事在退休縫給予的剝奪過去當中"},{"start":4379.822,"end":4400.072,"text":"有罪判刑確定之後但是判決基本上它需要很長的時間新的新法只要宣示判決就停發一半等到三審定宴之後才正式剝奪言論跟數位的防衛這部分過去更缺乏的是在針對數位認知作戰以及錯假訊息的防線"},{"start":4400.692,"end":4427.309,"text":"那現在對於禁止鼓吹戰爭言論還有授權及時停止這個所謂的斷網這樣的一個作為來讓這樣的一個訊息不容易影響到我們的國家安全那我們從這個維度上 防線的維度基本上從這一次的修法第二條跟第七條很清楚看到從意圖到行為而不再糾結在過去以主觀的這個意圖而是在客觀上主以危害這個國家安全或者社會安定"},{"start":4427.689,"end":4452.496,"text":"就這個防禦系統就立即來啟動那我們看到旁邊這個圖這個縱向指的是國家安全的程度那在這個橫向的是我們講的行為發展的程度那過去當中我們比較多是在這個淡藍色的這個區塊那針對這個深紅色以及這個這部分的相關的涉及到國安的一個影響程度我們的法律是沒辦法去要做相關的防範那再次針對參與組織針對譬如說"},{"start":4455.439,"end":4465.454,"text":"只要是有參與組織就等於構成犯罪我們在面對這樣威脅的時候能夠讓這樣的挑戰跟威脅能夠起於在它的萌芽階段能夠加以所謂殲滅"},{"start":4467.423,"end":4487.959,"text":"那在捍衛民主心智這一塊這我們涉及到比如說言論自由還有這個所謂的這個言論自由以及認知作戰這樣的紅線在我們這次的修法第四條那言論自由不應該成為境外敵對勢力對於我們這個國家安全的一個挑戰尤其是涉及到這個對於戰爭的這個"},{"start":4490.461,"end":4508.924,"text":"鼓吹或支持跟倡議這也符合了國際的公正公約所提到的精神再來是我們的做法是在新法上不得以文字跟相關的圖畫、聲音跟方式來進行鼓吹我們所進行的這個是一個行政裁罰的部分"},{"start":4509.364,"end":4537.845,"text":"那我個人覺得就如同剛才前衛律師有提到其實這個是我們在面對這樣的一個面對挑戰行政可以處理的一個最適的方式那在數位盡控這一塊在斷網這部分其實有分成一般程序跟所謂的緊急程序那他所進行的也是一個這個發環的方式以及確保這個相關的證據的一個確保的機制這也是站在國家如何面對這個新形勢的挑戰必須採取的作為那在針對"},{"start":4539.335,"end":4567.021,"text":"背叛國家以及民主的代價這部分來加重嚇阻譬如說斬斷這個中間人這樣的一個行為以及針對我們的這個軍公教人員以及包括退休人員在針對這個所謂的犯法有涉及到國家安全這個加重提醒那針對退縫這一塊我覺得這個是有一定程度必要因為畢竟等到三省定言之後他所可以進行相關的追討是有他的困難度的"},{"start":4568.223,"end":4577.36,"text":"因此我們說在整個這一步的國安法的新的修法它是一個環環相控甚至說它並不是一個零散的法規修訂"},{"start":4578.257,"end":4595.033,"text":"包括從一開始 尋找破口 譬如八支一條以及針對組織的滲透 第七條跟第二條再針對認知作戰這塊包括網路這部分 第四條跟第四支一條那第十三條跟十五支一條 針對內部顛覆這一塊其實我認為這是一個環環相扣"},{"start":4599.657,"end":4617.526,"text":"是我們政府在因應新的挑戰可以去主動出擊國家安全的防護的一個作為那因此我的結論認為我們台灣是個民主國家那我們要提升我們自己民主的韌性以及提升我們民主的防禦性那我們更需要有一定程度"},{"start":4619.167,"end":4643.386,"text":"面對這些挑戰 強悍的法治基礎那過去當中我們是被動防衛我們現在其實是採取主動的主決所以面對這樣的一個煙消之戰我認為我非常支持的是我們要強化台灣的國安這樣的修法是必須要進行的 以上是我報告 謝謝下一位我們請蔣貴美副教授發言"},{"start":4649.04,"end":4669.136,"text":"主席各位先進 大家好因為時間只有8分鐘非常緊縮這個民主政治需要監督這個的確是真理因為上一次禮拜三第一場的公聽會機關的回覆非常簡略大概都是一兩頁這次回覆果然比較"},{"start":4670.457,"end":4687.297,"text":"比較有針對問題但是很遺憾的就是我覺得有些問題似乎沒有越編越清楚在這個因為機關的回覆非常多通常都是現場發放看到這個內政部有一頁裡面談到說"},{"start":4689.118,"end":4703.029,"text":"所謂的445號或者是644號跟這次的國安法草案修法是完全不一樣的因為國安法草案是針對鼓吹戰爭而違反構成要件的事後追陳而445跟644是事前"},{"start":4708.137,"end":4717.648,"text":"我覺得這句話有重大爭議我們曾經有一個首長在某個公開場合他說他強調的是台灣國這個叫不叫鼓吹"},{"start":4723.476,"end":4747.387,"text":"我想請教內政部什麼叫鼓吹 什麼叫倡議鼓吹倡議的明確化原則在哪裡這個必須清楚我們大家都支持國安我們更珍惜人權保障得來不易的成果我覺得這個的平衡點一定要非常清楚否則我們憑什麼資格做民主國家"},{"start":4748.663,"end":4756.294,"text":"好所以呢剛才在很多的論點裡面都提到了這次的修法是針對事後我請問哪一點是事後好我舉例說明在這個"},{"start":4765.543,"end":4785.352,"text":"在這個查案的四之一 我只是舉例 因為條文很多查案的四之一裡面 這條案大家手邊都有啊查案說 令網際網路平台提供者網際網路的內容提供者 或是網際網路的運用服務的提供者"},{"start":4786.792,"end":4802.459,"text":"對該內容幹嘛呢?限制瀏覽移除或者是使用帳號採取限制或終止服務的措施請問這個叫事後嗎?這百分之百是行政事前管制那為什麼我們機關可以大剌剌認為這叫事後?"},{"start":4805.055,"end":4827.213,"text":"真理是越變越明的法理是越來越清楚的這憑什麼叫事後就算你採的是罰緩的措施可是大家一定還記得2023年的時候2月21號 今天國防部不曉得在不在國防部當時有預告一個全民防衛動員準備法"},{"start":4830.164,"end":4845.177,"text":"當時因為也是一個修正草案他在預告的時候呢各界的反應非常反對強烈反對為什麼反對因為當中我隨便舉一條第十五條是當時反對最激烈的各界聲浪"},{"start":4846.238,"end":4867.453,"text":"完全無法接受因為當時的15條是說為了因應新聞跟不實訊息的處理所以呢訊息傳播動員準備分類計畫主管機關應對出版事業廣電事業網際網路平台應用服務提供者及新聞從業人員實施調查統計編組規劃當時只是調查編組規劃喔"},{"start":4875.696,"end":4902.09,"text":"這個就是管制 是不是事前 百分之百是事前不需要我們在座各位大員來認定任何人都知道這叫事前所以當時這個法案就噴頂掉了那今天這個法案再度出現在我們現在看到的國安法修正草案的四條之一幾乎是一樣的事前管制那請問如何解釋"},{"start":4904.747,"end":4924.035,"text":"所以相關機關的答覆都認為這是事後也許有的機關沒有提這一塊它閃避掉了算它比較聚會我們今天不必為了辯護一個政策而這個政策還沒有真正經過煽突我們叫塗脂抹粉這個是非常不好的文化"},{"start":4925.208,"end":4934.475,"text":"就算你45號又44號你全盡一切力氣去解釋說這個只是事前那我先請問你我們還有個744號"},{"start":4938.559,"end":4962.541,"text":"商業言論廣告的事前管制這個大家都知道商業廣告的管制它的限制會比較多它的人權保障門檻會比較更嚴格一點更寬鬆一點更寬鬆因為它商業但是你知道我們的744它事前管制是不是危險"},{"start":4963.618,"end":4971.441,"text":"仍然違憲我們就算不拿45號、644號我們拿744號它仍然違憲啊所以呢我們今天在談這個問題的時候我覺得大家不要一刀兩切要非常清楚國恩重要並不是犧牲人權換來的"},{"start":4986.587,"end":5011.248,"text":"我們憲法23條從行憲到現在那個條文始終沒有動徵求條文也沒有動所以憲法23條裡面的原理原則有被突破嗎有說你為了國家安全你可以封鎖部分人權嗎有說你可以釋權行政權介入來管制嗎四之一條是典型的行政權釋權介入的管制請問你憑憲法哪一條好 另外"},{"start":5014.963,"end":5027.019,"text":"我時間有限我只講重點刑法在民國108年5月10號公布增訂了115條之一115條之一當時的增訂就是蔡總統時代"},{"start":5034.026,"end":5051.697,"text":"當時的徵定,他說本章之罪,他指的是外患罪,外患罪從103到115之以,當時徵定他說適用於地區或對象,他不承認地區,因為南岸關係條例是地區推斷他的上位法,徵修條文,他是地區"},{"start":5052.952,"end":5071.022,"text":"他是憲法授權的兩岸關係條例所以我們刑法裡面呢當時一五之一非常清楚地區對象或大陸香港澳門境外敵對勢力或派遣之人什麼什麼這個等等一五之一修訂增訂了以後"},{"start":5072.163,"end":5099.946,"text":"我們必須檢視一個非常嚴肅的問題我們可不可以在行政法裡面譬如說國安法譬如說反滲透法譬如說情報工作法它的全稱好像叫國家情報工作法情報法我們可不可以在這些相關的非刑法的行政法制裡面增加了很多外患罪的構成要件那刑法的罪情法並除以何所存在"},{"start":5101.519,"end":5126.066,"text":"學法律的人在這邊非常多請大家夢著良心去思考你可以抵觸刑法裡面沒有的構成要件嗎你可以在這一些相關的行政法制裡面自己增加構成要件嗎更何況我最後要強調的一點我們在這些相關的國安法或者是反滲透法或者是勤工法它很多根本連構成要件都不是"},{"start":5127.287,"end":5143.273,"text":"成功法裡面的所謂的影響國家安全影響國家安全是個概念它連構成要件都不是我們可不可以區分什麼叫構成要件再來羅之勿進可以嗎 謝謝我們下一位請楊志傑教授發言"},{"start":5164.929,"end":5188.268,"text":"主席各位先進我是楊志傑我的報告分成兩部分一鼓吹禁止鼓吹戰爭言論二錯誤虛假訊息政治宣傳下架封網首先第一部分禁止鼓吹戰爭言論的國際法基礎是公民政治權利公約第二十條一任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之"},{"start":5189.383,"end":5206.895,"text":"而根據該公約第11號一般意見書其所禁止的宣傳是可能導致或實際導致侵略行動的宣傳聯合國專家2022年報告也提到要對20條一做限縮性解釋該條的宣傳應解釋為對戰爭之煽動 incitement"},{"start":5213.052,"end":5236.769,"text":"由於公約第20條1涉及政治性言論自由的限制173個締約國中有15個國家對第20條1提出保留、理解或聲明包括歐洲國家、美國、紐約、紐西蘭、澳大利亞都明確表示不會制定法律落實該條而其他締約國對這15個國家的保留也不反對"},{"start":5238.595,"end":5253.125,"text":"高度保護言論自由的美國也反對該條在美國若要處罰煽動或倡議使用暴力或犯罪的言論美國最高法院要求必須一倡議者的行為直接"},{"start":5253.925,"end":5280.523,"text":"意圖直接煽動他人立即違法行為而該倡議的確可能會煽動此種立即違法行為因此美國沒有立法禁止戰爭言論另外美國最高法院2010年曾判決單純政治言論表達支持恐怖主義也不受處罰只有實質支持恐怖主義才可以處罰"},{"start":5283.198,"end":5304.15,"text":"聯合國人權委會對各國進行人權審查時通常不會對各國沒有落實第20條1提出意見甚至對俄羅斯攻打烏克蘭時政府散佈政治之宣傳也沒有評論聯合國的審查頂多希望各國撤回對該條之保留再看制定法律落實的國家"},{"start":5305.506,"end":5320.95,"text":"德國刑法典煽動侵略戰爭罪規定以公開方式或以散佈方式煽動他人實施侵略者可加以處罰注意條文採用的是煽動這個詞並非單純支持言論"},{"start":5324.38,"end":5343.973,"text":"芬蘭刑法規定於軍事危機或國際政治危機期間公開煽動外國對芬蘭發動侵略行動或使輿論支持侵略行為的聲明而明顯增加芬蘭陷入戰爭或成為軍事行動目標之風險者可加以處罰其強調必須該言論明顯增加戰爭風險才處罰"},{"start":5351.223,"end":5376.915,"text":"有處罰的國家大部分都是以刑事處罰戰爭宣傳也就是須由法院把關且只做事後處罰而不採取行政法行政院草案說基於刑法遷移性要採行政法這樣的結果會導致行政機關可以濫權開罰控制壓迫人民言論自由"},{"start":5378.288,"end":5387.59,"text":"因此倘若真要立法建議條文需要限縮一採用刑法固定用語公然傷禍二須該傷禍達到明顯增加戰爭風險者三加罰還改為罰金一級並非讓行政機關自己來處罰需由法院把關"},{"start":5399.687,"end":5416.901,"text":"第二部分錯誤虛假訊息政治宣傳下架封網草案四之一規定內政部會商其他機關後可命下架兩種言論一鼓吹戰爭言論二錯誤虛假訊息或政治宣傳"},{"start":5419.329,"end":5439.197,"text":"由於涉及政治性言論受到憲法高度保障所以我們需從言論自由原則來審視此規定大法官釋字445號解釋指出即會有刑法禁止有事實足認為有危害國家安全社會秩序或公共利益之餘者這樣的規定對言論"},{"start":5441.258,"end":5461.946,"text":"的限制欠缺具體明確且大法官受到美國言論自由原則影響提出若言論並無造成明顯而立即危險之事實狀態也就是沒有危害急迫性就不可禁止草案4-1命下架的第一種類型"},{"start":5463.362,"end":5484.278,"text":"就是公開鼓吹倡議支持戰爭言論也就是前面第一部分所討論的前面第一部分我已經建議應該更限縮這種類型且須由法院以刑事程序處理若真要命下架也必須由法院審判後命禁止散佈"},{"start":5486.069,"end":5511.231,"text":"第二種類型是政治方面的錯誤虛假訊息我認為這一個類型有三種問題一其對錯誤虛假訊息沒有限定主題例如沒有限定影響選舉兒少色情恐怖攻擊或疫情防治這樣的範圍太大其他國家一般只會規定某些急迫危害的錯誤虛假訊息"},{"start":5513.473,"end":5532.385,"text":"有急迫危害性才要命下降二 其所指的危害國家安全或社會財政經濟安定的虛假錯誤訊息其實都沒有急迫危害性可以透過政府澄清說明來釐清不需要立刻下降"},{"start":5534.312,"end":5557.67,"text":"第三種類型公開為中共從事具有任何政治目的之宣傳也太過廣泛其不要求言論內容錯誤虛假只要求言論內容不能與中共立場一致否則容易被政府說是在替中共從事政治宣傳但政治言論受高度保障也看不出此種言論的急迫危害性"},{"start":5560.925,"end":5578.234,"text":"草案的立法理由引述了很多外國法律但其實都與外國法律設計不同各國對網路內容管制方式大致可分成四種類型第一完全自由放任如美國"},{"start":5579.949,"end":5598.795,"text":"草案引述的2016年反外國宣傳與假訊息法其實他只是要求政府機關積極澄清二要求平台自我管理如2022年歐盟數位服務法和英國的線上安全法他只要求你對平台檢舉平台趕快自己去處理"},{"start":5600.814,"end":5609.771,"text":"第三種模式是違法且擴散後果嚴重者可向法院申請請求法院命令下降例如法國2018年的對抗資訊操弄法"},{"start":5612.113,"end":5634.478,"text":"第四種如果是由政府部門直接命令下架者可分成兩種目前只有新加坡採全面試讓所有行政機關都有權命令附澄清說明或命下架其他國家通常只限於極少數的急迫危害性的種類例如兒少色情恐怖主義等才會讓行政機關有權命令下架"},{"start":5635.984,"end":5663.101,"text":"在程序上草案規定內政部要會商多個行政機關才可以命下架由行政機關命下架已經會有政府控制言論的問題草案第二項進一步規定內政部可以跳過這個這個多個機關會商程序自己直接命令封鎖網站賦予內政部過大權力容易濫權"},{"start":5664.482,"end":5693.703,"text":"我的結論是一禁止戰爭言論部分可以禁止但要限縮且需由法院把關二錯誤虛假訊息政治宣傳下架封網部分沒有立法必要謝謝各位我們下一位邀請謝正裕教授發言主席政府的代表"},{"start":5694.608,"end":5721.588,"text":"各位媒體朋友 各位學術界的先進針對這個今天列席的官員跨部會這麼多我們也可以看到這個法令的嚴肅性也因為嚴肅性 所以我們要特別謹慎來因應那我的感覺是整體的思維 行政部門的思維"},{"start":5723.337,"end":5748.817,"text":"回到了冷戰時期冷戰時期有一個很重要的國與國之間或者地區與地之間的一個很重要的理論叫政治現實理論政治現實理論就是一切用硬實力一切用所謂的冷戰的思維兼避輕野然後把對方劃入到一個敵對的陣營裡面去"},{"start":5751.663,"end":5780.831,"text":"結果當然這個問題很複雜有人就在思考說當年美國的凱南建立了大西洋公益組織把整個蘇聯圍起來到底產生了50年後是對是錯有可能當年蘇聯如果不是這樣的話他可能會芬蘭化而不是更加的共黨化這個就是一個冷戰思維的我們看到了很多"},{"start":5782.423,"end":5802.214,"text":"增加了很多行政機關的權力那有這麼嚴重嗎這個就是當年1950年代美國的麥卡錫主義麥卡錫主義當年就是有任何共產主義組織的名字都要登記"},{"start":5803.799,"end":5829.015,"text":"結果因為這樣的一個行政在這樣一個參議員的提議之後變成了參議院眾議院美國所有行政單位都在查這些事然後造成了一萬多人失業或者是被關或者離開這個國境包括很多科學家藝術界的包括文學界包括很多學術界的人"},{"start":5830.051,"end":5855.184,"text":"我們難道還要進行這樣一個寒蟬效應嗎再來我們看到第二點就是說刑法上已經有的東西而且刑法很嚴但是刑法要經過法院的審判的過程那你現在好像你有說敵人很嚴重威脅我們然後比刑法還輕這不是制限邏輯的矛盾嗎"},{"start":5856.42,"end":5877.098,"text":"所以我們認為這個美國有一個很有名的他講說法院作為一個程序的專家作為一個政治的局外人有理由比政府的官員還來得有資格來審查一切所謂的違法亂紀的事情我們再看下一個"},{"start":5879.389,"end":5905.908,"text":"司法人的解釋剛剛許多人講到了有利己而明顯的危險嗎因為時間的關係我有些就綜合的來講我要請問在座的國安局或者陸委會我們現在把修法裡面除了中國大陸之外又把港澳也劃進去我們近幾年來有多少港澳然後對我不利的組織的東西存在"},{"start":5907.045,"end":5934.201,"text":"我們難道不能夠用所謂的建構主義的方式把港澳的友人拉在一起嗎當年的國防部長余大偉他說我們為什麼要保障金門跟馬祖因為這是在戰爭戰略上的兩個好像螃蟹的大的夾子牽住中國大陸往所謂的台海這邊進攻的"},{"start":5936.363,"end":5960.982,"text":"我們認為港澳正是當前一直到現在它是政治上的戰略不可少的東西我們把港澳都劃進去了港澳有多少機關或者是進來查獲的東西到底有多少是因為跟港澳關係而讓台灣部分人淪陷的有這樣子勢力嗎我們再看看下一條"},{"start":5963.055,"end":5987.713,"text":"日本怎麼來因應這個所謂的這些錯假信息它有一個跨部會的東西那這個跨部會到最後是國家情報體系來作為整個網路上最後的審查這個特別是針對敵對或者不友善的那些部分而不是一般的民事的那個部分我們現在好像要付錢給內政部"},{"start":5990.157,"end":6017.724,"text":"內政部有哪一個單位呢內政部以後是交給警察交給刑事局嗎那這裡面錯綜複雜的東西有辦法嗎還是要重新來思考各個單位當中我們怎麼樣參考日本把各個部會的東西彙整到一個新的部門裡面來我不反對說目前網路上有許多的一些錯假訊息但是哪一個部會是最適合的"},{"start":6018.737,"end":6039.209,"text":"我們再往下看啊這個就是我剛剛提到的最後啊 最後因為要剝奪人的財產權 自由權 生命權這是一切民主國家視為最重要的甚至是不正智名的東西"},{"start":6040.188,"end":6067.686,"text":"那現在我們好像輕易的透過國安法就要把人民的財產權就要把人民的所謂的言論那個自由權就要剝奪掉了所有的世界的進步是一個民主的進步如果我們退回到50年代那是民主的退步啊那是對人民我們用這麼多的心血從50年代走到今天"},{"start":6069.059,"end":6085.094,"text":"我們卻要退 政治衰退 Decade回去到那個時代 尖閉青野然後國防預算不斷增加難道這是我們所有的文官願意看到的嗎我們再看看下一個下一個我想上禮拜"},{"start":6094.932,"end":6112.754,"text":"我自己是一個同軍,很高興看到總統在同軍節的時候在陽明山宣布說核二核三可以考慮如果大院、立法院重新審議一些所謂的核安的問題等等這些問題可以重啟"},{"start":6114.691,"end":6128.177,"text":"這是一個理性的思維我們也希望兩岸的部分是一個理性的思維所以回到一個建構主義的一個以國家安全的思維裡面來"},{"start":6129.879,"end":6153.513,"text":"這裡面告訴我們的是說那個社會關係而不是一切憑實力一個新的認知就是說我們要建構一切對我們有利的民意也好或者是國際聯盟也好產生這些國際的認同之後那是我們最有利的台灣堅守我們不是常常在這樣講嗎"},{"start":6155.194,"end":6173.929,"text":"台灣是站在世界民主自由的陣容裡面那為什麼我們自己好像要把它劃入到那個非常的好像要回到戒嚴的那個體制裡面去那我們能夠廣結自由民主國家嗎所以在2019年賴副總統當年他去了福士紀念館"},{"start":6182.15,"end":6196.699,"text":"這個這個鏡頭讓我們想到他心中有自由民主但是是不是我們的一切的作為如果說我們今天非常多的言論那美國有很多智庫很多基金會講說2027台灣很危險那我們跟著講這樣的話是不是就是武統就贊成武統那美國是不是敵對勢力這些人是不是敵對勢力"},{"start":6208.024,"end":6225.569,"text":"所以我們看到民主有問題民主政治的學者常講的一句話就是當民主政治有問題的時候你不應該用專制的方式來醫治它你應該用更大的民主的方式來醫治它以上報告請自教 謝謝"},{"start":6232.02,"end":6255.66,"text":"好 我們接下來請我們列席的與會機關代表看是否有回應與說明請問我們內政部有要再補充說明的嗎非常感謝我們主席以及我們今天所有與會的學者專家代表那麼今天"},{"start":6257.055,"end":6285.421,"text":"這公聽會我想非常有價值我們也聆聽了來自於不同的立場不同的觀點不同的學術理論上面對於我們在這一次國安法修法內容的一個指教跟指證我這邊還是再一次的跟大家強調一件事情我們現在面對的威脅跟敵人不是一般的政權也跟過去冷戰時期很不一樣"},{"start":6286.84,"end":6313.199,"text":"冷戰時期的背景在今天不會被重複但是我們的敵對的國家所運用的工具跟方法比冷戰時期更全面而且更具威脅性所以內政部所追求的並不是擴權我要再次強調也不是要限制民眾的政治自由表達的權利"},{"start":6315.441,"end":6339.366,"text":"而是我們不能夠放任整個社會面對這樣的威脅的時候我們有一種躺平的態度什麼都不做或者是就是看著它發生我想這個是我們民眾不會賦予我們這樣的一個偷懶的行為我想這個是行政部門很重要的角色所以國安法的修正"},{"start":6340.717,"end":6348.841,"text":"我們是在追求一個適度能夠防衛我們自己的武器就像改普已經換了衝鋒槍我們總得升級我們的裝備"},{"start":6353.137,"end":6379.602,"text":"那社會大眾對於我們面對治安我們也能夠去爭取預算來強化我們的防衛能力都同意去年的1月19事件我想大家記憶還猶新當時網路上非常多的模仿犯直接的就挑明了要在公共安全公共交通的場所"},{"start":6381.391,"end":6405.562,"text":"來攻擊那我們也立刻做這樣的一個言論的處理下架跟封鎖來避免整個社會的恐慌我想這麼具體個案的部分我們都必須要處理了更何況是對國家嚴重的所謂的武力攻擊武力統一武力侵略所以內政部要再次強調所謂武統台灣言論所謂的侵略台灣言論"},{"start":6410.198,"end":6427.878,"text":"它不是表演藝術它不屬於自由演練的範圍不屬於這樣的一個我們要保障的權利因為這件事情它會造成我們整個社會的不安而且會有非常嚴重的後果"},{"start":6428.559,"end":6447.536,"text":"尤其是中國目前的民族團結法跟宗教國家化這兩個法律再配同過去反分裂法等這些法律對台灣的社會已經造成了長臂管轄已經有非常多的我們在台灣我們自己的政治"},{"start":6448.797,"end":6468.431,"text":"我們的工作者不管是各個黨派你只要發表對中國不利的言論馬上就會被列管馬上就會被列為所謂的什麼幫兇什麼樣的一個要通緝的對象我想對方的國家用這樣的方式來攻擊我們我們不能夠沒有"},{"start":6469.532,"end":6490.678,"text":"防衛跟反擊的武器我想這個是我們在整個修法的時候最重要的一個思考所以我認為學術理論我們都尊重我們也都同意必須要辯論但是我們在面對這種邪惡軸心政權我們在面對我們現在這樣的一個敵人的時候我們現在的這個修法已經非常溫和了"},{"start":6492.098,"end":6515.992,"text":"非常溫和的,我們並沒有去剝奪民眾實質的權利我想這個是跟過去兩戰時期非常非常不同的一個情況我想這裡我要再做一次慎重的澄清那還是再次感謝主席跟各位學者專家所提供的意見內政部跟各部會我們還是會虛心受教,我們再來檢討,謝謝"},{"start":6523.356,"end":6552.074,"text":"好,我們還有其他的與會機關有要補充說明嗎?剛剛提到港澳的那個部分是不是有沒有港澳的什麼組織的狀況近年來對台灣產生危害所以我們這次修法把港澳都列進去沒關係,事後如果內政部要再補充說明的話再麻煩其他機關回應,有其他機關有要回應的嗎?"},{"start":6553.769,"end":6562.213,"text":"如果其他機關無其他回應說明,那我們接著二輪發言前我們先請王洪威委員發言,好那我們請王洪威委員"},{"start":6572.076,"end":6581.443,"text":"好謝謝主席以及今天的與會學者專家以及我們的官員那我想今天有關於國安法的修訂我們今天進入了第二輪"},{"start":6585.202,"end":6603.089,"text":"第二次的公聽會不好意思因為我的助理現在趕過來不過我想國安法修正真的非常的重要因為它涉及到一般的百姓人民百姓甚至包含公務人員以及我們的民伴當然"},{"start":6604.83,"end":6628.275,"text":"就說今天修正國安法我們當然可以以一個就是說現在以賴政府我們的政府把中國大陸視為境外敵對勢力也認為它不管是在武力上面或者在網路上面對我們有很多的威脅但是我覺得當我們在修正這些法令的時候因為它會影響人民的權益"},{"start":6632.156,"end":6646.986,"text":"所以如果單單只是就 就是說這是境外敵對勢力對我們不管武力威脅 網路威脅 種種威脅加大而讓我們的國安法或讓我們的行政機關一個大幅的擴權"},{"start":6648.047,"end":6663.206,"text":"這仍然對外界來說會有一些疑慮甚至他有沒有侵害民眾的權益那比如說我們在國安法第四條裡面徵地鼓吹戰爭言論的行政裁罰那到底什麼叫鼓吹"},{"start":6664.147,"end":6667.23,"text":"這個戰爭的言論或者是鼓吹武統的言論那當然今天如果說有一個直播主或者是網路民眾在說希望什麼被武統之類的這當然你們一定會把它視為說這個是鼓吹武統"},{"start":6684.927,"end":6698.267,"text":"但是所謂的鼓吹戰爭的言論或者是它的行為其實是定義是模糊的我舉例來說別說我們在一些影劇"},{"start":6699.724,"end":6716.598,"text":"就是影視劇情裡面拍攝相關的戰爭他有些是他編出來的想像出來或他根據現在就是民眾他的市場他所做的這種影視劇算不算鼓吹戰爭"},{"start":6717.819,"end":6735.379,"text":"那又或者這是直接這個網紅他會弄一些歌曲還有些是無厘頭的那當然還有些是有政治性的所以你趕快打過來趕快打過來請問一下這叫不叫鼓吹戰爭或者我們再做一些民間的兵推"},{"start":6736.5,"end":6747.751,"text":"或者是在一些YT頻道上我們也可以看到這些不管它是基於選舉目的、政治目的或者是它只是商業目的、商業行為這些的言論、影視、歌曲"},{"start":6753.436,"end":6776.794,"text":"那要怎麼樣來做定義而這個定義如果一旦由行政機關自己來做定義的時候那他會不會失於可能是屬於一個政黨或者他本身內場的去做裁罰那我剛才也有看到學者專家提出來了事實上我們在刑法裡面也有相關的規定跟法則"},{"start":6778.835,"end":6791.738,"text":"那這個是交給了司法機關交給了法院雖然我個人認為現在司法機關並不夠獨立但是無論如何我們至少在形式上司法機關是屬於比較獨立的單位但是現在變成由行政單位來做確定的話"},{"start":6798.24,"end":6813.281,"text":"那這個會讓一般的民眾或者說因為基於在選舉的時候好或者是在這個朝野他在一個競爭的時候他會不會好大家會心生覺得有不公平的地方好另外呢"},{"start":6815.043,"end":6835.122,"text":"事實上像過去這個社會法現在社會法搭配現在有所謂的鼓衝就是你不得有仇恨性的言論可是其實我們很多所謂仇恨性的言論也有很多很多不同的定義可能不同的團體"},{"start":6836.643,"end":6844.248,"text":"當他在宣揚他自己的一個主張的時候可能對立方就認為這是在仇恨其實這樣子大家告來告去永無休止反而造成社會的族群之間或政黨之間或不同的意識形態的民眾之間更加的對立我以社會法來說"},{"start":6863.479,"end":6872.845,"text":"你知道我們現在因為我可能沒有時間討論太多社委法的問題啊可是你知道社委法現在很多移送由警察可能漏業再增辦"},{"start":6874.206,"end":6895.2,"text":"八九層在司法機關通都不成立啊所以我剛剛講我們的界限是如果像這樣子完全會影響民眾他的權益這麼嚴重的法律我們可以不用司法機關來做最後的審判而變成由行政機關來做"},{"start":6898.221,"end":6922.128,"text":"這個處理跟這個處罰我認為這是對於行政機關的一個相當擴權好再給我一點時間這並不在我們今天的好像五大提綱裡面但是我覺得這個要特別提出來也就是對於公務人員如果你涉及國安法在這個有罪判決之日之前就先行提發半數"},{"start":6925.069,"end":6945.156,"text":"這個條文連權序部都覺得有疑慮因為權序部所提出來的是 他說過去以我們現階段你要停發他的退休金 退休給予 都是要等到他判決確定即便他是很嚴重的 不管他是貪瀆 圖利等等"},{"start":6947.757,"end":6973.798,"text":"但是為什麼唯獨國安法說你先停發半數那現在說法是說啊沒有關係啊如果你那個判決最後沒有確立的話我會還給你啊可是問題是在常常一個官司耗費時日如果你就立刻停發半數的話你對這些公務人員來說他的清白還沒有還給他他可能他的生活就已經先遭遇困難了"},{"start":6975.139,"end":6978.902,"text":"我們的法律怎麼會擴權擴到可以覺得隨隨便便去影響民眾的這樣權益可以去影響民眾的生活而還覺得OK啊 沒有問題啊"},{"start":6990.949,"end":7004.825,"text":"連全市部對這個事實上都有疑慮的意見我在看到相關的意見既然我們行政院各單位各部會全部附和沒問題沒問題如果有一天你今天現在有很多什麼"},{"start":7005.886,"end":7023.291,"text":"貪污圖利各種的這個法則你在沒有判決之時我就先給你停發半年的退休金我就給你停發你的薪水你可以接受嗎將心比心啊所以我希望說我們在國安法的修正裡面"},{"start":7024.671,"end":7046.108,"text":"那個大帽子那個大帽子就說哎呀這個中國大陸很可怕很可惡可是如果我們可以這樣無限的去擴張我們的行政權然後壓縮人民的權利甚至侵害人民的權利那請問一下跟我們過去的白色恐怖有什麼不一樣過去也是啊"},{"start":7047.009,"end":7054.451,"text":"匪諜就在你身邊啊所以到處抓匪諜每個人隨便的原本都說你是中共同路人都說你是在地協力者更進一步就直接拿國安法來辦你那你跟過去美國的麥卡錫主義有什麼不一樣呢到處在獵巫啊"},{"start":7067.304,"end":7094.117,"text":"所以在國安法的修正裡面我認為要切記的不要以所謂的就是反對或者阻擋來自於這位敵對勢力的滲透我作為一個大帽子但是它實際已經限縮了很多我們人民的權利甚至是侵犯人民的權利這是我們在修法的過程裡面一定要盡量盡量去避免的以上"},{"start":7101.099,"end":7114.824,"text":"接下來我們請問現場的各位專家學者是否有要二輪發言的好那我們就請陳立民律師二輪發言那我們二輪發言每位三分鐘"},{"start":7120.455,"end":7130.294,"text":"主席還有各單位的代表還有各位先進我想有關於鼓吹倡議支持戰爭言論就應該要受罰的這部國安法的修正"},{"start":7131.297,"end":7156.337,"text":"我們認為是有這個以國安之名行前世言論之實以國安之名侵害人權之實以國安之名行這個行政擴權之實所以有關於這樣的一個修法其實真的必須要審慎因為畢竟我們用中華民國的立法院的立法是要對付什麼我們中華人民我們中華民國的這個民眾"},{"start":7159.479,"end":7177.704,"text":"當我們這個中華民國的民眾他在一般的這個政策的一個討論或者是說這個政治的一個表態或者是參與了統獨的辯論或者是做戰爭風險的評估或者對於某些政策做了嚴厲的批評的時候"},{"start":7179.704,"end":7204.039,"text":"這時候就要面臨國安法的前置的時候對於我們人民的這個言論自由確實有非常大的影響再來我們談到第七條的這個加重刑法的部分對於罪行法定主義的一個規定裡面尤其是第七條的第九款跟第十款他特別提到我們人民財產權的部分凡是參與組織之後所增加的財產一律要沒入"},{"start":7205.231,"end":7230.593,"text":"這是什麼不分青紅皂白假設我參與了這個組織然後這個組織的人去犯罪然後因為我是這個協會的成員然後我的律師我這個去幫大家開庭的費用需要被認為是參與組織之後所增加的財產這個時候非常非常難界定這個已經影響到我們人民的財產那再來第二個部分是什麼"},{"start":7231.093,"end":7245.336,"text":"八字一條的部分所謂的再轉指示等等的這些規範其實也非常非常的不明確總而言之這部國安法的一個修法事實上是對什麼對我們人民權利非常大的影響"},{"start":7246.337,"end":7272.182,"text":"那之前已經有什麼在國安法之前做修正的時候我們因為當時在蔡英文時代是全面執政所以通過了非常多不明確的一個法律現在要一直行這個行政擴權的一個狀況裡面對於我們人民的言論自由對於新聞的發表自由對我們人民財產只有更多的侵害對於立法院他"},{"start":7272.702,"end":7294.389,"text":"一再應該是要對於什麼對於我們這個民眾應該要採取這個立法傷害最小的一個原則我認為這樣的一個修法事實上是倒退事實上是真的像如同我們這個信教授所說的就是麥卡錫主義讓我們民眾完全的限於寒蟬效應以上謝謝"},{"start":7309.255,"end":7332.473,"text":"主席各位在座的朋友我剛剛在談建國主義的時候絕對不是只有所謂的學術上的爭論他已經是在1980年之後談國際關係的主流的價值主流的理論甚至是運用出來的這是第一點要補充的第二點"},{"start":7333.956,"end":7355.088,"text":"建構主義跟政治現實主義的區別主要在哪裡建構主義認為說一個地區跟地區哪怕過去是敵對的國家跟國家之間不應該一直把所謂的敵對的硬實力不斷的強化而是應該建立非常多良性的規範"},{"start":7356.636,"end":7373.187,"text":"在這個良性的規範之下雙方不斷地往前進步減少可能不必要的危害戰爭衝突這是建構主義所要的我們過去兩岸之間有許多正向的規範"},{"start":7374.932,"end":7399.959,"text":"有許多經過政府跟政府或者是海基會海協會授權單位建立了很多正向的規範包括兩岸大學生的交流但是我們看看最近幾十最近十年左右陸生來台很多人都說他是一個正向的讓陸生接觸台灣的民主社會"},{"start":7401.139,"end":7429.093,"text":"結果現在入生不來了多少大學挨挨教這個就是一個建構性的東西我們現在捨棄建構性的東西而要用強化管制性的敵對勢力的這種所謂的政治現實主義所以我在這裡真的是不斷地也希望政府單位能夠多多的思考是不是我們跟國際的主流社會的價值"},{"start":7430.667,"end":7457.659,"text":"會不會越走越遠美國的自由之家常常把台灣的自由民主視為是非常高的我們這樣子的一個立法會不會又越走越遠你很支持我們的紐約的自由之家瑞典的世界和平組織公布出來的一個國家的軍力國防預算"},{"start":7460.304,"end":7479.579,"text":"應該是要平的還是有些國家不斷在增加這個東西都違背了真正世界和平的這一條路上去走的道路我想我提供的一點例子我時間還有一點我再舉一個例子當年911發生之後美國有一個talk show的他在電視上說"},{"start":7487.765,"end":7508.976,"text":"911固然是美國的大災難但是美國人遠在幾千公里之外用飛彈去打人家這種懦夫的行為對不對他這樣子在民族主義高漲的情況之下他講這個話沒有事是一個自由是一個言論自由的一個保障謝謝好那我們一樣接下來請我們的掌櫃美教授謝謝"},{"start":7520.07,"end":7546.651,"text":"主席因為這個議題實在是非常重要所以我們需要第二次發言第一個剛才有這個王委員提到說退休金剝奪這一塊退休金的部分在過去我們有非常多憲法未接的釋憲那它跟薪資的本質是不一樣的然後我們在這個草案裡面剝奪退休金的二分之一"},{"start":7547.412,"end":7572.349,"text":"他的構成要件到底是什麼他不是細誅於司法的審判這個構成要件在我看來是有嚴重問題的那當然很遺憾 權序部沒有好像也沒有邀吧所以他好像也沒表示意見所以事後希望能夠權序部看用什麼方式但是我覺得法理上一定要有一個非常清楚的說明"},{"start":7573.189,"end":7601.061,"text":"否則的話這個全國公務員我記得這個過去公務員有一個集體的訴訟那時候我還在監察院大概有二十幾萬軍公教全部集體訴訟當然最後大法官送訴781、782、783全部都不違憲但是那個法理上我覺得將來要接受歷史的檢驗甚至包含所及與否的問題甚至包含誠信原則到底有沒有抵觸信賴保護有沒有抵觸的問題"},{"start":7602.822,"end":7622.916,"text":"第二個問題 我覺得呢 剛才一直我有強調一個觀點刑法是最刑法定主義 所以他一定要系諸於他明確的定義跟構成要件跟法院審判那我們現在是在相關的行政法令裡面"},{"start":7623.817,"end":7639.811,"text":"去加了很多構成要件而這些構成要件有的根本不是構成要件它甚至只是個概念說你危害國家安全這麼寬鬆 這麼不確定甚至抵觸明確性原則的概念"},{"start":7641.001,"end":7658.08,"text":"他甚至可以在各個不同法裡面各自去定我覺得全部要回到刑法去檢視刑法裡面的外患罪103到115之一請大家好好的看它的構成要件到底是哪些理處的我覺得根本不在討論範圍第三個問題呢"},{"start":7662.344,"end":7689.393,"text":"當然這次增列了這個行政法的部分但是行政法的部分上一次第一場的時候我有提過在監察院的時候我曾經提了一個這個柴水表案那這個目前網路上都找得到官網都掛在上面後來被國際人權組織的學者專家說我們違反了明確性原則所謂的散播謠言它的定義是不清楚的"},{"start":7690.165,"end":7708.459,"text":"而可以留之入罪這個問題到現在還沒有解決到我離開到現在這麼長的時間沒有解決沒有修法我們何有信心會認為這個草案可以做到行政法的明確性原則我剛已經提了所謂的鼓吹是什麼"},{"start":7709.893,"end":7732.45,"text":"所謂的倡議是什麼連定義都不清楚你的裁罰要件到底是什麼我想時間有限但是呢最後一個問題剛才在第一輪的發言裡面有提到全民防衛動員準備法當初會有那麼大的爭議那現在很喜歡又回到草案裡面的四支一條"},{"start":7733.931,"end":7759.229,"text":"這個爭議解決了嗎 完全沒有解決你要行政權事前 行政認定的自我標準去剝奪人民的基本權所以請大家回到憲法23條什麼叫做法律保留原則 什麼叫比例原則什麼叫做性愛保護原則這些基本原則在憲法23條不可能撼動的情況之下請找出依據 好 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是主動研擬了配套措施你花了八個月的時間對因為我們包括跟衛福部之間我們包括系統的建置然後其實一些人員的配置其實我們研擬了包括有些在做法上流程上面"},{"start":180.253,"end":204.637,"text":"很好你花了八個月的時間去想你的配套這個我沒有反對我是在講當時法條要通過的時候你的立場還是極力反對因為通過之後你就必須去想配套嘛我現在在問你的是請問12歲以下的兒童家裡有12歲以下的兒童就可以開放家庭幫庸這件事情你贊成還是反對"},{"start":205.097,"end":227.635,"text":"那當然我們現在政策是因拍板要來執行那你當時質疑這個80歲老人家裡有80歲以上的老人這不應該開放啊你的立場是很嚴格的你覺得連這個都不應該開放那你怎麼會去支持一個現在只要一個12歲以下的小孩就可以拼家庭幫用你不是說外籍移工不是你想增加多少就可以增加多少嗎"},{"start":228.376,"end":256.182,"text":"那你當時所說的棄重就輕那會不會有更多人就不想照顧完直接去照顧小孩啊你所說的當時的理由現在還是不是理由跟文說明 我們的確是在去年的整個配套的執行裡面我們發現這個配套的執行是有效的這個配套的執行有效下讓原本大家其實原本擔心的一些狀況可以緩解跟降低好啦 部長我就問你 你要不要承認你就是有雙標"},{"start":257.342,"end":281.357,"text":"你在開放12歲以下兒童這個就是可以找家庭幫你用這件事情你就沒有嚴格把關你沒有比照是原來就是你之前發臉書的這麼嚴格的標準來看待這個新的政策跟文說明重點是我們認為我們在去年的配套是有效的這個有效的配套下這個配套有效上可以確實是可以減緩一些原本大家"},{"start":283.318,"end":302.715,"text":"擔心的事情 你的配套大概只有棄重就輕這件事 你有說過外籍移工不是想增加多少就可以增加多少 是有沒有錯當然這個案都跟來源國有關所以我們後來 現在12歲以下家庭邦庸你們發的新聞稿是有144萬的家庭是符合資格的"},{"start":303.981,"end":329.577,"text":"這是消極資格並不是一百四十萬都會來申請他想要來申請就可以申請啊沒有門檻嘛主要家裡有一個十二歲的小孩就可以來申請啊那你怎麼不擔心並不是要多少就有多少那部長我再問你一句今天這一個開放十二歲以下就有一個小孩就有家庭幫庸的是不是勞動部提出來的政策是不是你們提的這個是我想是我們跟衛福部一起來研擬的那個時部長請上台"},{"start":333.949,"end":354.185,"text":"衛福部有提供這個意見跟主張嗎你們主張就是家裡有一個12歲以下的小孩開放家庭幫忙是你們提出來的政策應該是這麼講在這個政策的研擬過程當中我們有提供一些數字包含在居家所以你們才是始作俑者是你們提的勞動部背黑鍋"},{"start":355.962,"end":384.637,"text":"委員這不是誰背黑鍋的問題那誰提的你回答嘛這其實就是我很好奇誰會提出這個政策大埔松保的政策這其實就是行政院裡面我們兩個部會其實一起來所以你們兩個共同商議的要提出這項政策對什麼時候什麼時候其實從去年就在評估啦去年什麼時候其實去年下半年就在我們在媒體上也有回答其實我們一直在評估這個政策中所以是去年勞動部就有這個想法"},{"start":386.127,"end":399.305,"text":"去年其實就開始在這個政策上面因為我們也看到了一些需求有些聲音然後我們把這些需求的聲音也做綜合的評估包括它的可行性包括的做法包括需要的配套"},{"start":400.424,"end":419.429,"text":"你去年就開始研議好那我就直接問你那你找了哪些團體來做你的這一些相關需求的評估哪一個團體跟你提出需求說麻煩勞動部開放家裡有一個12歲以下的小孩我就需要家庭幫助跟我說明其實這不一定是哪一個特定的團體總是會有人提出來啊"},{"start":420.309,"end":435.343,"text":"我自己親自都跟蠻多其實有這個需求的雙性家庭的家長我自己親自跟他們談了解他們的需求的狀況那其實也有很多團體但會有持不同意見的那他們也在透過很多的方式意見的表達這些意見我們都有掌握"},{"start":435.785,"end":454.63,"text":"你開了哪些會議你可不可以告訴我就是你去年開了幾次會議找這些團體這個討論是非常多的不是說哪幾次會議的問題不要說非常多這非常的含糊啊我想在立法院委員會我想要了解就是說這個政策到底怎麼產生的嘛那你如果說是勞動部你懂那很好啊"},{"start":454.77,"end":479.284,"text":"那你勞動部主動是因為我們洪部長很關心這個議題你主動去找了一些的團體那我想知道是什麼時候然後有沒有做成任何的會議記錄因為至少這個議題在立法院是沒有正式討論過的也沒有專報也沒有委員任何的提案那只有一個可能就是你行政體系自己提出來的嘛那我今天要知道是勞動部主動想要大幅開放還是是衛福部覺得要解決少子化"},{"start":484.907,"end":496.354,"text":"提出了這樣的一個想法還是賴清德總統他認為這個政策好棒棒所以非執行不可你們是奉命執行"},{"start":497.674,"end":518.478,"text":"到底是哪一個答案我要跟你說明第一個因為本期覺得不合理啊不合理是你知道現行的規定是什麼嗎你家庭幫中現在才多少人嗎2000人你現在是要三個六歲以下的孩子還有四個孩子有兩個是六歲以下那這個政策是可以討論的我覺得是可以討論的但是我沒有看到任何討論的過程我們看下一頁"},{"start":524.359,"end":551.771,"text":"過去我們在討論這個80歲以上要聘用外籍看護工他是長達14個月的時間在委員會多次的審議政黨協商三讀通過而且你們有8個月的政策準備期我就請問12歲以下小孩家庭聘用家事移工從宣布到上路你們就是一個月的時間這當中你跟我說你有開過會是在哪裡開會我要求交出會議記錄啊"},{"start":554.797,"end":579.422,"text":"昨天 我再告訴你一件事昨天跨國勞動力政策諮詢小組的委員你有參與這個會議嗎 誰主持的 今天有在現場嗎不是我主持的 是我們次長主持的對 昨天就有委員提醒你們你們在這件事情上面沒有配套措施也沒有考量民間團體的意見還在會議上面媒體都有報"},{"start":580.854,"end":606.105,"text":"那這件事情你還說你們都已經配套措施想好了如果這樣子那就那個委員不盡責啊昨天開會還在提這件事委員我們這個政策當然是有配套措施包括對本國工作者的配套包括對於一些服務品質的配套這個政策當然是有配套的你還要講服務品質這個政策在這個配套都在上個禮拜行政院的院會後的記者會其實有跟大家報告了"},{"start":607.025,"end":623.304,"text":"服務品質好我們來看一下再下一張服務品質這件事情這當中有非常多的灰色地帶一方面我們現在在修耳托專法我們對保姆我們對於托嬰中心我們有很多的要求跟期待"},{"start":623.965,"end":639.077,"text":"那這件事情你開放12歲以下的孩子這個幫庸直接進來他不會成為照顧的體系的一部分嗎家長不會請他照顧嗎那這當中前面你給他受什麼樣的訓練跟文說明第一個"},{"start":639.557,"end":656.151,"text":"你的配套說得太容易了但是我覺得你都沒準備一個在外籍幫傭的定位上面我們認為他其實比較是家務的幫傭但他可能會協助性的協助一些家人的照料協助性的會有家人的照料可是他的確現在跟專業的保姆之間的這個職能是有蠻大的落差"},{"start":657.153,"end":674.954,"text":"這個蠻大的落差包括其實一個保母她其實可能你的配套應該是告訴本席說你們針對這一類要進到家庭的你現在大幅開放她會接觸到孩子所以你事先給她什麼訓練你將來規劃的課程是什麼他們可能要接受哪些訓練第一個她在母國就會有一定時數的訓練多少時數"},{"start":678.476,"end":691.094,"text":"每個國家會不同那第二個是我們其實有規劃他進到台灣以後我想衛福部這邊會有給一個基本的照顧的課程有喔幾小時來部長回答 時部長回答幾個小時的課程還在規劃中"},{"start":692.455,"end":711.691,"text":"大概應該是這麼講就是說他不是取代專業的居家的那個保姆所以這個是不一樣的訓練那只是一些可能因為他在生活照料上會touch到會接觸到這個孩子他應該要注意的事項只是這樣所以聽起來都很模糊嘛我要直接講你剛剛講得很好啊這個開放80歲以上這個巴士量表你們花了8個月的時間兩個部位好好去討論真正的配套說是該怎麼做"},{"start":721.078,"end":745.976,"text":"你今天這個政策大幅鬆綁完全是先鬆綁然後再想配套事實就是如此真的不用再硬拗了那你就告訴我啊你們之前開了幾次會想配套如果你那個巴士亮表是花了8個月的時間請問你這個政策什麼時候跟衛福部開會然後去想配套我們私底下包括跟衛福部做了非常多次跟他們的次長做了非常多次都是私底下"},{"start":747.472,"end":760.587,"text":"就是對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對於對"},{"start":762.048,"end":768.193,"text":"各個職業的缺工數昨天你們開會還討論這個農業移工其實也是相對嚴格的你們還綁了他的逃逸率的KPI所以你只給了7000名這個是你在對於農業移工你採取嚴格的審核但是我們看到家庭幫優你現在是大幅的送綁我跟妳講為什麼因為農業移工的失聯率有9%"},{"start":785.208,"end":790.353,"text":"我要提醒你的是這個失聯率難道不用做處理不用管理嗎你應該秉於專業你不要一下子是在業黨提的你就嚴厲的反對那現在是總統交辦了你就大幅鬆綁你現在讓人家看到你的雙標是非常明顯的能業移工他的失聯率的狀況難道勞工部我們不用跟農業部"},{"start":805.768,"end":820.36,"text":"不用來面對嗎那你標準要一致啊你農業這邊還繼續嚴格沒問題我現在就是看到你獨獨大幅鬆綁是有一個12歲以下的小孩家庭的看護工的失聯率大概只有一點多%所以你是用失聯率來看囉我說"},{"start":821.181,"end":842.671,"text":"我說農業移工我們之所以要比較嚴格的原因是因為他的失聯率真的比較高這件事情大家看得明白你這個政策就是衝突上路不然民團不會有那麼大的聲音嘛你的委員不會昨天的會議還告訴你說請參考民團的意見那最後我問你民團要求的政策衝擊評估報告你要不要提一定會提"},{"start":845.08,"end":870.951,"text":"什麼時候因為這個報告是在行政院的姓評會提出這樣子的要求所以我們會在下一次的姓名會來提出這樣的報告就看行政院下一次姓名會什麼時候開好這一個評估報告我要求給這個委員會這邊本期這邊我們要一份看你們徹底的評估報告好不好我只是最後提醒所有的政策就是標準要一致不要因為只是總統交辦的就這樣子"},{"start":873.653,"end":888.04,"text":"就是大幅的鬆綁然後找一個理由然後就這樣子大幅的通過標準一致就好的確很多雙性家庭是有這個需求的當然是可以討論啊但是你前後標準不一嘛是有這個需求我們是在這個需求下進行評估的好謝謝王育民委員"}]}},{"id":"167948","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167948","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e132e60f8f9705ebec30e9bbc489b48f60f073324919e7b6e17444451dbb786d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱慧洳","委員發言時間":"09:41:37 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因為抽痰的行為是一個醫療輔助行為他就會觸犯護理人員法37條的密護罪好那當然我們非常的了解抽痰這個行為是一個醫療輔助行為但是我們也非常的能夠體諒到說護理人 護理機構或者是長照機構因為人力不足所以礙於現實困境的考量部分的醫療行為特別是低度 低危險的"},{"start":108.472,"end":127.022,"text":"醫療輔助行為其實礙於現實困境的考量不得不交給照服員來執行那所以我想衛福部的態度應該也是傾向這樣所以抽談這個行為在106年衛福部就做了放寬了就是把比較低度的抽談行為例如說"},{"start":127.762,"end":150.294,"text":"口腔內旋擁垂前的這個分泌物的抽吸那第二個就是氣切管內分泌物的抽吸這兩個低度的抽痰行為就放寬給造福源去做那到了109年又放寬了一樣就是鼻腔內分泌物的抽吸也放寬給造福源去做但前提就是要用手動吸鼻器來處理不能夠用機械的抽吸器"},{"start":151.394,"end":156.837,"text":"那111年呢就把這三個行為呢又整理到111年的韓式好那現在的問題呢我想要跟部長交換意見的問題就是說其實你們關於醫療輔助行為的韓式其實都散落各處散落各處真的很不容易查我有時候想去查一個韓式真的大海撈針然後很難找這是第一個問題"},{"start":176.468,"end":202.326,"text":"那第二個問題就是韓式的解釋內容很零碎化像我們如果看到這個109年的韓式我們會以為低度的抽談行為就只有這一項趙服務員可以做但是如果你又去看106年的就是分別找你只看到109或分別找你只看到106你就會覺得106好像趙服務員可以做兩項那我現在就覺得說解釋的內容非常的零碎化那是不是在這邊就是建議部長"},{"start":203.046,"end":232.122,"text":"能夠用一個叫做造福源的作業要點也好業務範圍要點也好把這些零碎化的解釋把它整合在這一步要點當中部長不知道有沒有困難應該可以這樣做啦我們目前把一些規範這個做成QA也好或者是在一個專區讓他讓他容易查詢那基本上他應該是納入造福源的訓練因為我們造福源有訓練嘛所以這一些"},{"start":233.038,"end":259.248,"text":"要做這些事情也都要經過訓練所以他應該要在照服員的手冊裡面訓練手冊裡面把它納入我知道謝謝部長願意來做一個整合但是其實真的以查找的迅速性還有就是法律的效力的位階來說的話你放在一個專區其實也不太好查找如果有一個要點大家"},{"start":259.768,"end":276.836,"text":"就直接找那個要點然後所有的答案就很清楚的羅列在那裡面所以我還是希望部長能不能考慮就是用這種因為要點其實它只是行政規則那你們就是把那些零碎化的資訊放到這個要點裡頭其實會比較有效率性那除了抽談這件事"},{"start":278.277,"end":296.367,"text":"其他的我呈現在畫面上的其他的醫療輔助行為其實也是部分低度的這些醫療輔助行為其實是放寬給照服員去執行那一樣有散落各處而且資訊零碎化的一個問題所以我才會建議說能不能用要點把這些資訊整合在一起這是第一件事情"},{"start":297.307,"end":314.613,"text":"那第二件事情的話那我就來講一下就是說因為剛剛我們有看到說100年的韓式說抽痰是醫療輔助行為護理人員應該在醫師的指示之下行之但是106、109、111又出現了三樣低度的抽痰行為是可以放寬給照服員去執行的"},{"start":315.433,"end":330.997,"text":"會出現一個現象就是說後韓市某個程度就抵觸前韓市那所以呢我建議這邊因為有些人會看得一頭霧水啊怎麼我這邊看到沖台市護理人員要親自為之的醫療輔助行為在那邊又看到說某些"},{"start":331.537,"end":352.577,"text":"那個抽談是可以交給趙服務員做的所以可能大家會看得一頭霧水所以我認為說這些不合時宜的函式不夠精確的函式是不是可以廢止掉不一定要廢止或者是做一些修正才不會說大家東找一個看到A資訊西找一個看到B資訊然後會覺得說到底現在是怎麼一回事完全搞不清楚"},{"start":354.078,"end":368.987,"text":"醫療輔助行為的界限因為衛福部的函式就是會造成我們這樣混淆那除了抽談這個行為有這種後函式抵觸前函式其他的部分醫療輔助行為交給造福員去做的也一樣有這個問題所以部長不知道這個問題衛福部這邊可不可以來處理"},{"start":371.848,"end":398.09,"text":"謝謝委員指出這樣確實在過去因為時空背景不同那不斷的在演進那過去經常都是因為有一個這個譬如說某個單位或者是衛生局來詢問或者是建議這個行為可不可以由趙服務員來執行然後再經過團體大家討論之後認為說可以所以就出了一個函式所以都是one by one one by one這樣子在做"},{"start":399.051,"end":427.316,"text":"累積久了之後確實也有必要那麼把它整合起來所以我會請業務單位呢把過去這個函式裡面呢這個把它彙整起來那到底用什麼樣的方式來呈現讓業務單位再研究一下OK好來那我們來看一下第三個問題第三個問題剛剛其實已經提到了這些低度的醫療輔助行為例如抽痰低度的抽痰行為就是礙於現實困境的考量那就交給趙福元之"},{"start":428.257,"end":443.453,"text":"來執行我想這個就是衛福部這個不得不然的一個選項那我現在比較想要跟部長交流的就是說那請問一下交給趙服務員來執行這些低度的醫療輔助行為那請問一下有沒有監督把關集資以抽談為例為什麼需要監督把關因為這個就是口腔內"},{"start":447.256,"end":461.66,"text":"執行分泌物抽吸的步驟氣切管內執行分泌物抽吸的步驟那其實你可以從這些步驟看起來他雖然名為分泌物的抽吸 死者他就是抽痰死者他就是醫療輔助行為醫療輔助行為為什麼要交給護理人員來做因為護理人員有專業有品質比較能夠保障這個病人的安全那現在"},{"start":468.201,"end":495.343,"text":"衛福部不得不然把它放官給照服員去做那我覺得需要把關那第二個問題就是說真的需要把關因為如果不當抽痰有可能會造成肺炎啊氣道損傷然後低血氧症所以把關照服員有沒有執行的品質跟專業就需要用把關機制來做一個監控好那所以現在問題一請問一下因為你們還是說做這三個低度的抽痰行為是非醫事人員的這個照顧服務提供者可以做好"},{"start":495.764,"end":499.156,"text":"那我這邊羅列了三個角色請問這三個角色都可以做嗎"},{"start":501.926,"end":525.261,"text":"我們是現在是把他納入在照服務員的訓練當中那主要他是以可視性他在他可視的範圍裡面看得到的範圍裡面去執行那麼會規定在這個懸擁垂之前也是避免他引發嘔吐的反應所以大概這個是需要訓練的所以我們的原則上是這樣來處理"},{"start":527.783,"end":546.978,"text":"呃我就是我的觀察我的觀察就是呃這三個人他在食物上都有做這三種人在食物上都有做好那部長知道做這個低度臭痰行為衛福部有做什麼管控措施嗎"},{"start":548.314,"end":575.719,"text":"我想是這樣當然我們的制度上是要求是照服員才可以做但是家人要自己做當然這個沒有什麼違法我知道因為你們的韓式歷來你們的韓式歷來就是針對因為回到居家的情境然後真的病人可能自己有執行的困難所以當然就可以由家人來輔助那你們的韓式當中也寫到說因為這不算是業務的執行所以家人是可以執行我直接講那個"},{"start":576.579,"end":584.127,"text":"我要跟部長交流的問題是什麼你們有設計一個照服員可以做的前提要件就是要接受16個小時的訓練還有實習課程那我想這個就是一個把關機制這個就是一個把關機制但現在重點來了請問一下有訓練的人可以做"},{"start":592.916,"end":611.688,"text":"那沒訓練的人可不可以做因為我剛已經提到了這個低度的抽痰行為他有他的危險性跟操作的專業性那你現在你剛只提到本國的造福院嗎跟家人那請問一下外籍的看護工散落在家庭或散落在機構的看護工他們可不可以做這是"},{"start":612.688,"end":619.631,"text":"誰可以做的第一個問題那再來呢這些人可以做之後因為你們有一個把關機制就是參加16個小時的訓練課程那如果沒有參加訓練課程的人可不可以做這是我的第二個問題那我現在跟部長再進一步講其實沒有訓練的人他沒有罰則"},{"start":629.835,"end":638.982,"text":"所以換言之解讀起來呢誰都可以做路人甲也可以做所以你剛剛就回答家人也可以做那我是認為說應該要建立一個裁罰機制因為我剛剛已經說了操作步驟非常專業性再來不當抽檯會有那些結果所以我在這邊就是要懇請部長可不可以建立一個裁罰機制那為什麼因為"},{"start":648.248,"end":654.853,"text":"確保造福源有執行能力非常重要我PPT上呈現的是一個監察院的糾正文當中所呈現的司法判決就是有一個外籍看護工他就是在幫他的個案做抽談結果他因為不敢抽談不會抽談他就不想做結果就被僱主解除契約然後就被遣送回他的母國"},{"start":667.722,"end":688.837,"text":"所以我在想有一些看護工你教他做他沒有信心他沒有能力他不敢做所以我覺得不是張三李四阿狗阿貓都可以來做要有經過訓練那如果沒有符合這些資格你要制定法則如果沒有法則這個低度的抽談行為真的是到處亂做真的會傷及病人的安全那部長你覺得如何建立裁罰機制"},{"start":689.878,"end":706.991,"text":"第一個在長照體系裡面不論是住宿式機構或者是社區或者是居服那麼都是要經過訓練的照服員才能夠執行另外如果是家人的自己照顧在家裡面的不是在機構的"},{"start":707.992,"end":732.901,"text":"那這個家人自己去執行的時候當然我們建議他去學習之後才執行但是是不是這樣要把他訴諸於要去要去克與他的處分或罰則這個要好好的研究這個跟無照保姆一樣嘛無照保姆現在兒童權法也沒有規範所以本黨昨天就在相同的地點相同的時間提出來說無照保姆應該做管制然後我們提出的方案是罰1到5萬的"},{"start":734.421,"end":756.789,"text":"然後而且要命令他立刻停止他的服務行為那因為這個低度的抽糖行為真的要建立一個管制機制我再往下部長可以再用兩三分鐘思考一下好所以監察院的糾正文也提到說到底我們開放給造福源去執行這些動作他們是做抽糖的行為還是做抽稀分泌物的行為其實有時候很難區分就像你們提到的口腔"},{"start":759.09,"end":769.496,"text":"懸擁槌前跟懸擁槌後 前可以做後不可以做其實有造福源做下去有沒有越界其實我們也不知道所以要建立把關機制那這個是一個判決內容就是有個看護工他做抽談的行為超過懸擁槌被判密戶罪所以我覺得這裡要檢討就是說到底這個前跟後要怎麼樣去把關有些人僥倖心態啊我一條管子"},{"start":780.964,"end":800.496,"text":"放下去超過懸垂後其實只有我知道別人不知道其實他已經實則觸犯了那個密戶罪那另外一個是欠缺認知他不知道有前後的區別他做下去其實他觸犯了密戶罪這樣子所以有沒有越界應該要建立把關機制我最後一張就是說可不可以請部長提供給我們造福源業務範圍既有的含釋"},{"start":801.477,"end":821.098,"text":"因為他真的散落各處不好找那我們有了這個函式我們可以進一步再思考怎麼樣去完整化他們的業務範圍第二件事就是廢植或修正不合時宜的函式然後制定造福源的業務範圍要點這第二點那再來就是監督把關機制因為我現在聽起來我拿三個角色問部長部長好像覺得造福源可以那"},{"start":821.718,"end":843.818,"text":"外籍看護工散落在家庭跟機構好像你還沒有進一步明確的答案那操作的程序的監督例如說學員學員學前跟後的把關機制然後還有建立法則這個都有待部長來幫我們健全造福源的一個作業要點因為這樣才能保障病人接受到的服務品質還有一個專業的一個水準那真的"},{"start":848.329,"end":869.843,"text":"30秒30秒就是部長不好意思因為工會一直來跟我拜託說可不可以向您請命說去年衛福部有協調醫院讓這個工會去做勞教那今年可不可以擴大辦理因為他們覺得是德政啦那既然是德政部長這邊可不可以再繼續延續這樣子那不好意思那位主席不好意思那再請那個衛福部長做回應"},{"start":873.325,"end":887.954,"text":"有關於這些含釋我剛剛已經提過了因為這個有時空背景的演進所以我們把它整理一下讓他大家好查詢比較好清楚那也建立在我們照服員的手冊裡頭我覺得這個是非常很好的建議我們來執行"},{"start":890.496,"end":901.063,"text":"思考一下好不好用要點那一個月好不好這三個訴求可不可以一個月法規上層面上到底應該用什麼樣的方式讓業務單位再研究一下了解好那這個擴大辦理可以嗎這個應該沒什麼問題還是有什麼好那再請部長一個月內把這些資訊提供給我們好不好謝謝好謝謝邱會務委員"}]}},{"id":"167947","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167947","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4eee895aec4c451ca91db4e8dc12ee02550f073324919e7b6ed538382fbf97c6c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"09:52:46 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是"},{"start":63.067,"end":80.127,"text":"那就公平化不用存在了嘛沒有 剛剛這個議題出現我們就有去了解了解 了解要知道事實所以所有交代一個多少錢你不知道我現在告訴你了好 我要先問我的議題啦齁 主委去年九月的時候發生了高雄市美濃"},{"start":81.528,"end":103.862,"text":"大峽谷這個有不肖的業者去非法的去採石殺石獲取暴利然後讓我們整個青島的廢土造成了整個地形跟我們的生態環境的一個破壞所以整個峽谷就形成一個很大的一個坑洞在這邊所以國土署特別為了防止這個違法的棄土"},{"start":108.385,"end":137.211,"text":"事件在重演所以在今年的1月1號開始就實施了營建剩餘土石方全流向的管理政策要求砂石車必須安裝GPS的系統並使用這個電子連單來取代這個紙本的這個單據希望能夠掌握到砂石車的行車的這個動向來提升管理的這個功能所以國土署在公布但是"},{"start":137.711,"end":162.824,"text":"太過於倉促所以造成整個業界來不及安裝GPS而且全台的土石方堆置處理廠也沒有安排好所以能量處理不足的情況之下供需失衡所以導致了大量的土方在短時間內沒有辦法去消化讓土方的清運成本暴增"},{"start":164.124,"end":179.812,"text":"暴增所以根據我們營造業跟建設業他們的估計現在的每立方公尺的土方的這個清理的費用有分北中南北部原來是1800的現在漲到4500中部是800塊的漲到3000元南部的話是280元漲到2000元這幅度大概三到六倍所以請問 主委"},{"start":191.678,"end":218.311,"text":"你認為這一波的土方之亂這土方的資源堆置處理業者有沒有趁這個情形而去聯合哄抬價格的這個嫌疑這個就是我們在跟國土署在開會協商的過程當中本會負責就是有沒有聯合哄抬價格那我們在事情一出現以後我們就積極的到市場去了解這個價格的狀況初步的了解是目前的價格並沒有出現一致"},{"start":218.931,"end":246.536,"text":"所以剛剛本席把這資料呈現在你前面你說也沒有這漲了三五倍是很正常的委員講的是價格提高幾倍但是我們看的是同業之間的價格有沒有漲得一樣聯合啊所以同業價格是一樣啊假設一個三千塊一個兩千五北中南為什麼價格北中南不一樣主委你有去調查你請教你為什麼不一樣北中南請教你跟這個營運的成本都有關係啊"},{"start":247.356,"end":252.539,"text":"為什麼有營業成本不一樣大家都裝了GPS啊 還有什麼不一樣為什麼價格不一樣 你有去調查你應該知道一樣是土石啊 一樣是安置處理廠堆置啊哪裡不一樣"},{"start":266.847,"end":281.065,"text":"為什麼價格不一樣同樣的土石它有不同的價值為什麼它有不同的回收價值為什麼所以價格可能不一樣一樣是泥土啊廢土啊有些土石回來以後可以重新再利用對啊啊有些土石是填海而已主委所以你不了解吧"},{"start":282.085,"end":311.645,"text":"你有去調查 我要你了解的為什麼就是距離也是問題啊有的站得比較遠為什麼北部會比較貴因為北部的話都市區域嘛 沒有堆置這個處理廠所以會站得比較遙遠的那個安置這個堆置這個廢土的地方所以距離遠 價格就高嘛南部的話 因為空曠的地方比較多堆置的場所 只要合法的地方會比較容易取得所以這距離的問題 價格就不一樣所以 主委"},{"start":312.585,"end":341.408,"text":"我們不要每次都要等到人家檢舉你們才來調查調查的話你就自圓其說自己一套好像不死人間煙火跟民眾的思想思維軌道都不一樣我們民眾大家都認為是哄抬我們委員接到了很多的陳情報章雜誌登出來了你還說沒有為什麼你們的思維都不一樣呢今天不管是經濟部也好包括著我們的國土署都新聞叫你調查了"},{"start":342.267,"end":366.642,"text":"我們跟國安署有開會過我在這地方還是要釐清一件事情我公平會從來沒說價格沒有哄抬我公平會強調的是說你的哄抬是不是聯合的哄抬所以我們的執法重點在於聯合行為的調查你聯合要怎麼樣我們不能去介入價格的合理性價格的合理性我們這個在分工商我們是針對聯合哄抬這部分"},{"start":368.14,"end":390.099,"text":"所以我們並沒有說你們公平會總是有一套自圓其說跟我們廣大的民眾的想法都不一樣所以我要請你們去調查不要等到人家檢舉很多事情市場上的出來了包裝雜誌也登出來了鬧轟轟的時候你們可以主動出局嗎你們責任在哪裡我們已經在進行了解跟調查當中了"},{"start":390.339,"end":405.414,"text":"所以我們有跟郭杜池在配合調查這麼久現在結果呢我剛剛跟委員講過初步我們發現了解結果並沒有價格一致的情況所以我告訴你北中南不一樣的情形就是沒有辦法一致會有其他的因素嗎有沒有聯合一致"},{"start":406.395,"end":429.764,"text":"運輸成本也會考慮本席今天會這麼氣憤的是因為你們都不處理我們地方的營造商已經因為這車輛價格再運的土方的價格飆漲的情況之下他沒辦法經營下去他跟政府標到一個標案他願意自動解約被罰幾百萬他也沒辦法再運這個土方"},{"start":431.162,"end":442.511,"text":"這個情形都已經發生了 你要到多嚴重的情況之下 你才說沒有聯合的情況專科GPS為什麼價格飆漲到三至五倍呢這個請你們嚴格去查一下 再來我再問一下"},{"start":443.922,"end":461.005,"text":"就是不實的廣告也是我們公平會的業務之一對不對不實的廣告就是頭尾都不一樣不實的廣告就是有欺騙嘛引導消費者不了解而去購買到不一樣的或去消費到不一樣的東西對不對"},{"start":462.321,"end":486.811,"text":"是不是你們的業務是啦不實廣告所以本席在這邊要請教一下那因為我們公平會對於商品的標示跟價格的訊息跟各種的這個宣傳內容都有浮誇不實的情況之下違法情形之下我們公平會都會來處理是屬於我們的業務範圍那本席在這邊想請教如果一部影片"},{"start":487.811,"end":500.895,"text":"前導片與正片嚴重的出入不一樣的話 算不算不實廣告我想這個案子喔 因為最近才剛出來是不是允許我 我們事後會議會去調查我先問你 我的問題你先回答前導片跟正片如果完全不一樣 連演員都不一樣"},{"start":509.079,"end":526.697,"text":"針對這個問題我兩點做一下說明第一點就是說前導片跟電影本身算不算是個別前導片算不算廣告後面的電影本身是內容還是說前導片本身實質上是整個影片的一部分這個我們後續會去了解一下到底是什麼情況那即使前導片是具有廣告的性質"},{"start":527.658,"end":546.668,"text":"那剛剛委員有講到廣告是會誤導消費者去做出消費的決定好那接下來問題就是說那前導片是怎麼樣去誤導消費者去相信他要去看這部影片這個問題的調查就會涉及到很多觀眾的主觀上的評價也許在前導片我想要看到這個他要看到那個每個人是不一樣的這個我們都需要進一步去了解"},{"start":548.249,"end":570.628,"text":"你都沒有注意聽我發問的問題我是告訴你前導片跟正片所有的劇情 角色 內容 演員都不一樣這有沒有算不實不一樣啊就是剛剛我跟文人講的嘛是不是前導片這個不是觀眾的主觀意思欸你的劇情 你的演員前導片跟正片都不一樣還要怎麼樣是要主導意思的"},{"start":571.048,"end":579.883,"text":"據我們初步的了解 前導片有時候是一個創造氛圍所以是不是一定前導片裡面所談的 一定會在後續的影片中出現這個就是我們要去進一步的"},{"start":585.797,"end":604.058,"text":"這個我們要去了解 因為前導片是不是一定百分之百完全全部落入到後面的影片當中這個可能要請問相關業者的了解才知道主委你好像真的是跟我們民眾的思維不太一樣喔前導片就屬於是個預告片"},{"start":604.939,"end":631.829,"text":"預告我現在的證片的內容最精華的再要出來給民眾看民眾覺得有吸引他他就會來這個消費會到戲院去看證片這個是這樣子的叫預告片怎麼可以這個預告片前導片跟證片不一樣你還無法判斷我真的不曉得主委你的思維是怎樣我想這一點我們會後我們會去進一步了解到底這兩者之間的關係是什麼好那我們現在"},{"start":633.149,"end":656.47,"text":"你現在講到這邊 我就告訴你 給你調查比較正確的方向就是有一部影片 叫臨日攻擊我們不講它的內容有沒有偏頗或者意識形態我們以戲劇的角色跟情節有沒有缺乏邏輯性跟合理性在網路上 已經很多很多的民眾都說批評它這個都不死 演員都不一樣我強調再強調 演員不一樣"},{"start":660.273,"end":685.102,"text":"劇情內容的角色也不一樣所以我們希望我們諸位在這個片子裡面你一定要給廣大的消費者給個一正視聽啦如果是這樣子的片子喔未來很多影片都會出來前導片就叫做預告片希望諸位你們都要主動出擊我們真的很用心良苦一再一再這麼講每次大家為什麼執行公平會的時候沒有人要來執行"},{"start":686.994,"end":699.194,"text":"真的 就像陳薇講的 雞同鴨講我們跟你講的那個對焦 那個軌道好像都不一樣啊我們民間生活不死人間煙火民眾的反應跟你的反應會不一樣啊"},{"start":700.653,"end":722.211,"text":"請公平會把你們責任擔當拿出來好不好不要從外民眾來舉證你才去查證不管是我們的行政部門查證之後的話你才做事證實事了你才是事你們責任擔當都沒有請公平會自己要加油一點我們會回歸去了解教長好 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所以我剛剛所講的 我講的是原因如果依照你們這幾個原則 我跟你說你查沒有啦你絕對查不到的啦"},{"start":418.741,"end":442.902,"text":"我們業務單位已經有持續在跟經濟部那邊聯繫啦我們會密切配合經濟部他目前的盤整結果如果真的有所謂的聯合集體出貨拒絕出貨這個當然也是聯合行為啦這個我們會介入講什麼叫聯合拒絕出貨不會啊我又沒有拒絕出貨我只是說我用很多理由嘛晚一點我晚個四天晚個五天晚個一個禮拜"},{"start":444.639,"end":462.478,"text":"那請問這叫聯合拒絕出貨嗎我想這個我們在過去的對案都有處理過啦那我在這邊沒辦法給委員一個統一的標準的答案但是所有的聯合行為的這些問題我們都會在個案裡面根據我們掌握的事實主委我只是希望"},{"start":464.059,"end":488.845,"text":"我質詢公平會 我已經質詢到現在我在經濟委員會已經10年了所以每一次跟公平會好像永遠在雞同鴨講你們永遠沒有辦法站在消費者的角度即使消費者投書了 傳情了最後還是不了了之 就是查無實證"},{"start":490.385,"end":516.621,"text":"我今天為這麼快的一個時間經濟部已經在查了我們希望公平會要有所態度不要是被動的如果你今天用你剛剛所講的那幾個原因我給你保證你一定查不到因為有發動法現在業者很聰明他不會自己跳入到你們所講的這些"},{"start":518.579,"end":533.132,"text":"所謂你們判斷是不是聯合的一些樣態不會所以你們每次也都查不到所以我們希望這個部分你知道嗎現在塑膠袋大家"},{"start":534.473,"end":552.159,"text":"過去雖然我們一直在檢縮一直在檢縮可是在檢縮到現在還是有些必須要的那這些必須要的到底要怎麼去做然後到底我們要怎麼去抑制 你知道嗎 現在一個塑膠袋多少錢"},{"start":553.941,"end":566.286,"text":"這個我沒有不清楚沒有找不清楚嘛而且呢他現在轉嫁到消費者身上以前不用錢的現在要求消費者你一個要多少錢而且價格都往上提高"},{"start":568.123,"end":591.217,"text":"所以這整個是一個影響鏈啊影響鏈然後最終是誰被影響消費者我想委員關鍵我們理解啦我們都有積極在對市場進行了解還有跟經濟部門合作所以我不希望在這個整個中東的一個問題當中最後受傷的是誰受害的是誰是消費者"},{"start":592.574,"end":600.603,"text":"我的關鍵在這裡因為一路下來最後他會要求消費者去買這個塑膠袋那當然消費者他需要他就要買啊"},{"start":607.148,"end":621.359,"text":"可是轉嫁就是在消費者身上我們不希望在整個我們政府的一個第一時間沒有辦法去控管而導致整個消費者來受害是這樣好 謝謝主委 拜託一下 謝謝好 謝謝陳廷飛委員"}]}},{"id":"167945","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167945","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e54416f5ee5d04369c30e9bbc489b48f6ec4551788d53590e4bf6fd8005bdee605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:27:38 - 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病的療法叫做細菌性療法但"},{"start":30.39,"end":55.292,"text":"好多人就打到北榮去問或是台大詢問逼得北榮不得不出來說我們醫院並沒有這位醫師也沒有這樣子的創新的研究革命性的療法那當時衛福部也出來說話衛福部就說他們會很快速的釐清醫師法對於虛擬醫師形象的法律適用性還有研擬一套合法的身份揭露那另外呢"},{"start":56.073,"end":69.29,"text":"當時四個月前您還說要建立頻道設置規範讓民眾在網路上看衛教的時候可以一眼分辨出誰是領有執照的專業人士誰是電腦合成的假身份那目前為止進度如何呢"},{"start":70.526,"end":86.477,"text":"好抱歉這個我再來細部了解一下進度再跟委員報告好那我先那我等一下有幾張這個投影片我想跟你講目前這件事演變的方向還有它的嚴重程度好過了4個月這個是我最新找到"},{"start":88.378,"end":106.625,"text":"你們發的一個新聞你們研擬了四個月那現在是說未來要攜手跟速發部推去醫療假訊息快速下架那你永遠都在這個研擬的行政步驟這四個月但是發生了一些事情讓您看一下"},{"start":108.766,"end":110.668,"text":"好我们先看这个影片"},{"start":123.903,"end":150.604,"text":"这代表你的肠道极度干旱缺水而且严重缺乏水果里的水溶性纤维润化明天的行动指南是立刻大幅增加饮水量多吃两颗带皮奇异果或者马上补充一碗洋菜冻对于不能喝太多水也不能吃高甲奇异果的肾病患者这时候应该选择低甲的苹果莲皮吃并搭配适量的洋菜冻来锁水你觉得你认识这个医生吗"},{"start":151.94,"end":175.337,"text":"我沒有印象沒有認識不認識你覺得他講的衛教內容正確嗎不完全正確啦部長我跟你說我有去查啦醫事人才人系統沒有這位醫師所以他應該是新的頻道新的AI醫師剛提到的那位啊已經消失了他的頻道本來有很多訂閱現在出現了很多新的頻道比如說這個他裡面喔"},{"start":176.198,"end":195.029,"text":"就有很多醫生陳志明醫師的影片又回到這個頻道了並且這個頻道的訂閱有25.6萬是衛福部的6倍多衛福部現在是4萬訂閱然後下面的留言非常的踴躍因為很多長輩是看這個在吸收知識的我們再看下一個"},{"start":199.226,"end":200.666,"text":"那你覺得他講的正確嗎也不無道理啦"},{"start":223.933,"end":247.318,"text":"你看所以我也真的去查了這位醫師這位醫師是有這個名字可是因為我找不到他真實的照片所以不知道是不是真的他本人本人好但現在呢因為AI產生影片的速度非常的快我看了一下你們衛福部是4萬訂閱你有沒有考慮如果你用石崇良AI來做衛教也不會輸給他你覺得呢我考慮看看"},{"start":253.438,"end":271.434,"text":"我跟你說事情的嚴重程度是類似這樣子樣態的東西出來越來越多我們現在還不知道他的目的是什麼也許可以猜到一點點但是他正在蒐集大量的受眾如果您家有長輩或是一些家族的群組我相信他們應該會喜歡看這樣子的影片您認同嗎"},{"start":276.94,"end":299.575,"text":"這個他有一定的對象啦一定是這樣這種會有訂閱率的一定有他的一定對象那這個衛教的影片其實很多基層醫療也想要做好你也知道嘛有一些醫生他是喜歡做這樣子的事情可是第一他硬體軟體可能跟不上再來呢比起這些AI製作他是日更他可能很快就可以產出並且"},{"start":301.476,"end":328.716,"text":"他很懂心理學行銷學他會跟觀眾互動所以像這個醫師他最後會說喔如果你想要跟我一樣控制好血糖請在影片下方留言我想控制好血糖然後下面就一整排都是我想控制好血糖我想控制好血糖接下來再給你看其他的像這一位呢他也是有11.6萬訂閱但他想要規避所以一開始他稱呼自己是高醫師後來就說自己是高老師"},{"start":329.957,"end":335.459,"text":"那這個呢甚至還會帶貨這也是一個AI醫師最後你看他可能會說醫師教你如何刷牙然後再連結到這個產品那這個產品本身不一定是賣不好的東西我們沒有我自己還沒有去買買看我們不能保證但他現在就是一個沒有人監管的狀態所以"},{"start":352.935,"end":364.461,"text":"這是為什麼今天想質詢這個題目是因為這是真的收到的一個陳情就一些長輩他家裡看了這樣子的AI衛教影片那可能是醫師或護理師又連結到現在甚至呢這個詐騙集團他會盜用這個真實的一個護理師叫譚敦慈"},{"start":371.644,"end":397.903,"text":"他用他製作AI影片然後再做一個假的農會標章然後去推銷一些健康的農會的產品等等的那就去買嘛結果雖然長輩他可能沒有辦法去判斷這個連結到其實是海外的一些網站結果寄過來的東西完全就是名不符實就是一些垃圾然後不知道要找誰退款那因為這些東西最後齁您最後要面對的是"},{"start":399.644,"end":421.931,"text":"現在已經有醫師護理師很快你也會看到有營養師的頻道或者是復健師的頻道那你覺得你要怎麼應對我想這個問題從幾個層面來看第一個按照醫師法無視醫師身份是不可以自稱醫師這涉及到這個醫師法的密醫的行為那雖然他用的這個頻道他放的人"},{"start":422.631,"end":444.26,"text":"它如果是它製作的雖然不是用它自己的名字用一個假名用AI製造出來它可能也會涉及到醫師法的違反處分的部分我們會用嚴厲的處分因為平常的衛教當然過去很多坊間的衛教大家都在做這個資訊當中當然有一些確實性落差會有"},{"start":448.602,"end":463.588,"text":"不過因為如果你以醫師的身分因為這個可信度對民眾來講他的這個相信的程度會拉高所以不應該用這個醫師的所以這個才會在醫師法裡面去明定不是醫師者不可以自稱為醫師所以這個應該要按照這樣來查處"},{"start":467.17,"end":479.876,"text":"那第二個當然要趕快下架這個沒有問題這個我們會跟這個速發部趕快建立用這個PWM的那個區域下架我在這邊想要給您兩個建議就第一個因為七成的民眾其實他會先習慣從網路去獲取醫療的資訊所以衛福部就應該要主動的出擊"},{"start":485.779,"end":504.628,"text":"你們之前說會跟術衛部攜手合作然後我現在想要知道說第一點落實快速下架的這個機制你多久可以做到因為我剛剛已經證明給你看了現在有很多包括灰色地帶他可能一開始說自己是遺失後來變成老失"},{"start":505.248,"end":516.355,"text":"那第二個你是不是應該要建立一個即時澄清的機制因為現在也有很多這個反詐的這些軟體他可能會協助長輩去判斷這些資訊是錯誤的那我認為你應該要把這些衛教的主導權從這些詐騙集團手中搶回來甚至這些AI的醫護人員或是醫事人員他還在帶貨所以你應該要有即時澄清下架的一條龍這樣子的程序"},{"start":532.965,"end":548.991,"text":"我希望你可以給我們一個進度而不是像我們四個月前覺得你要做結果四個月後其實沒有那你大概多久可以完成這兩樣事情這個快速下架應該會比較快啦這個我們跟速發部我們之前因為在那個有一些這個"},{"start":550.552,"end":576.166,"text":"那個影片這個那個性影像我們有建立這樣的機制的立刻都要讓它下架所以這個概念是相同助發部的動作也很快所以我們大概一個禮拜內把這個建立起來那這個澄清的機制我們來把它建立起來因為這個還要一些資料做法上那這個因為都涉及到威教的比較多我也請國建署來辦這個事情"},{"start":577.267,"end":595.455,"text":"好那下一個這個新聞你應該知道我不知道疾管署的同仁是不是有跟您表達了最近在某一個年輕的族群15到24歲他的梅毒罹患率急速的升高增幅是8%好我們來看一下這張圖您看右邊紅線就表示這個15到24歲的年紀"},{"start":597.776,"end":623.396,"text":"那其中還沒有包括黑素因為15到18歲有可能這個性命是要通報的或者是需要家長陪同他們並不一定就會去就醫並且他會不好意思嘛那這個您也懂他可能嚴重的程度因為初期他的症狀不一定很明顯但到末期他嚴重程度會影響到神經包括平衡啊 視力啊或者是精神疾患啊更嚴重會到動脈瘤或者是心臟半膜等等"},{"start":626.138,"end":650.411,"text":"我查了一下台南就發表了三個20到30歲年輕的男生他們來一開始沒有想到是因為梅毒只是因為脾氣古怪或是有暴力傾向記憶力變差那甚至智力下降等等的找了半天才找到原來是梅毒感染並且在治療完畢以後這個智力並沒有恢復所以針對這個族群的人蠻嚴重的你如果沒有把他們快速的篩檢出來給予"},{"start":652.412,"end":675.345,"text":"快速的治療他後續影響的不只是生育能力尤其我們現在小子化他進一步會影響他未來整個神經系統嗎那這邊是不是多久以內可以請您請疾管署提供一個報告針對這個年齡層這麼快速爬升他地域性他的危險因子還有他你們面對這件事情的因應方案是什麼"},{"start":675.905,"end":702.711,"text":"好跟委員說明我們也注意到這個現象那按照我們的統計來看那麼從去年跟之前的資料來看大概是零病的個案下降但是沒讀的個案上升那上升的族群主要是在19到24歲這個族群是上升的最快那如果以性別來看的話呢又以女性的女性呢在這幾年"},{"start":704.391,"end":723.056,"text":"這兩三年的快速的上升所以這個跟全球也有發現類似在COVID之後有發現這樣的趨勢那我們也在探究背後的原因當然有一部分男女性女性多數是被害者"},{"start":724.492,"end":750.704,"text":"就是這個是這個安全性行為跟多元性多重性伴侶所造成的這個就是這個性行為的問題那女性在症狀上又比較這個不明顯所以就醫上會延緩這個也是一個問題所以我們從去年開始吧我們就有這個匿名篩檢因為這些青少年他就如同委員講的他是"},{"start":751.824,"end":781.178,"text":"不希望被發現比較害羞不希望被標籤化所以在看門診的時候有時候當然就比較不願意來就醫所以我們有這個叫匿名篩檢的一個平台在做我這邊先中斷一下因為主席的時間快到了那我先跟你要這個報告就是說我希望知道說這個年齡層你們未來要怎麼因應還有你們有沒有分析出他的原因跟危險因子"},{"start":781.678,"end":809.411,"text":"那第二這個是具體的建議請您看一下表格是台灣跟日本跟韓國最大的差別在於日本跟韓國他們是定期的就會在街頭做一些高頻率的宣導我們是偶爾有活動他並不是定期的那韓國是值得我們接近的因為他是直接把外展檢測服務拉出去所以他才可以快速的篩檢到這些高危險族群"},{"start":810.735,"end":833.281,"text":"你可以看到嗎有有有好那這個我事後再跟您請教一份報告因為你要先分析你的原因那你們才可以提出具體你們想要針對這個族群做什麼影響我想我們CDC有在監測這件事情他們有個分析好那我再跟您要報告可以可以沒有問題好一個月內謝謝好謝謝陳金輝委員接下來請邱惠如委員發言"}]}},{"id":"167944","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167944","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4efb441f748b9bf5e3c30e9bbc489b48f6ec4551788d53590e4bf6fd8005bdee605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:14:36 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總統政策希望不要照顧最好不要因為照顧而離職所以同時有76.2%的勞工表示即使無薪也需要長照安排假就是說他不用要錢來貼補可是他就是有這個需求這代表需求已經很明確而且這應該發生請問兩位部長這個數據足夠支持你們推動長照安排假嗎"},{"start":171.995,"end":192.646,"text":"我想這個我們從幾個數據來看那第一個就是說剛剛在我的報告裡面也大概提到如果是住院新發生個案要接後端的長照服務那麼我們過去當然很長50幾天那現在大概是平均3.66天所以這個有一個空窗那第二個呢"},{"start":193.166,"end":220.684,"text":"如果是在社區裡面直接申請的不是因為住院在社區裡面要申請的那麼平均大概是10天重數大概是5天所以這裡也有一個空窗所以這個空窗當然就必須由家屬自己來擔負這個空窗級的長照的照顧那確實我覺得是可以來考慮這樣的一個資助那我不知道洪部長這邊這是你們的數據應該很明確的"},{"start":223.907,"end":246.724,"text":"其實我們對於像這個照顧不離職為目標的政策我想我們當然都很願意來思考那的確在針對長照安排假的部分的話其實我們也在跟衛福部討論因為現在長照3.0上路嘛那長照3.0上路以後過去其實大家會有些部分這個"},{"start":248.385,"end":267.506,"text":"可能大家想說像痛點就是說哪些地方會有這個空窗的部分其實目前在長照三年上路以後會縮短到什麼程度那這個在這個目前整體的長照制度下面的這個政策的需求可能我自己我自己認為可以再進行一輪的這個"},{"start":269.881,"end":289.459,"text":"制度上路以後的評估那才比較能夠把需求掌握住然後來評估那這個長照相關的價別啦他的必要性跟可行性我覺得他可能會經過一個這樣子程序的討論那所以我們願意在這個程序之下來做綜合的思考"},{"start":289.799,"end":306.678,"text":"我想勞動部應該非常知道現在缺工婦女勞參率低如果照顧離職的話可能會雪上加霜而且現在問題是成本事實上沒有消失而且被轉嫁出去勞工如果用離職來承擔企業用人力流失來承擔家庭用健康跟時間來承擔"},{"start":308.035,"end":324.597,"text":"像部長剛才祝我們身體健康當然我們覺得家庭的負擔很重的時候就很難最後整體的社會在用生產力下降跟稅收減少來承擔更具體的來看的話切為了一個員工要離職的話可能要付出約1.5倍的"},{"start":326.579,"end":350.868,"text":"年薪的重置成本 因為要重新訓練人所以紅部長這些重置成本最後會是由來誰來解決一定是你勞動部要想辦法所以為什麼不去解決這個根本呢所以相對的話想問 石部長像我相信你們大家也會支持可是前段的問題不能解決的話就留一堆不能到最後來留一堆問題"},{"start":351.601,"end":369.41,"text":"最後家庭照顧者最後又變成負擔很大因為他一個人在家裡去照顧那樣所以你的其他服務的確到長照3.0時間有算縮短了可是從申請到銜接到所謂的適應事實上是要有些時間的所以就來問"},{"start":372.191,"end":399.914,"text":"到底對象是誰 誰能申請 需要多少錢有沒有裁員 還有事業單位會不會支持 所以我們就來看數據我們現在主要是想爭取的事實上是能不能新手 因為的確如果事實上是重新再找的話當然還好 可是新手的話衛福部的估計一年大概2到3萬人會使用到 所以市部長我們先針對初次有長照需求的給予"},{"start":400.935,"end":421.881,"text":"協助這個方向你支持嗎跟委員說明當然我們現在盡可能的去增加他申請的方便性包含線上申請等等但是因為第一次我們照專需要評估的時候就是長照需求評估的時候第一次因為我們還有半年再評估"},{"start":422.381,"end":436.837,"text":"所以第一次評估的時候一定是要有這個照顧者也就是家屬像你的申請要四天你的選擇要七天那麼以目前來講一年大概新申請長照第一次初評估的這個大概在三萬多人左右"},{"start":437.698,"end":465.357,"text":"所以那我只要問你你支持這樣的一個方向嗎我支持就是以第一次的因為第一次他需要要導入這個長照的服務第一次進入這個系統第二個呢他也需要像委員講的這個適應所以如果是先限縮在這個第一次申請的我覺得這個是可行性應該要去考慮啦如果我們用初次有需求這兩三萬人去做"},{"start":466.378,"end":485.795,"text":"計算的話我也幫部長算好了以平均薪資六成的薪資的話大概整體成本大概9到10億而如果我們用投保薪資的六成薪的話那整體估計預算大概6.4億如果我們用育嬰留庭的規模跟方式的話用投保薪資八成薪算的話大概8.6億所以我們用這個規模來試辦的話這筆錢對我們的勞動部應該不難把就業保險基金"},{"start":493.462,"end":514.907,"text":"是不是可以支應呢因為我們看到的是首先運利遊艇也就是用救保來做處理有潛力可循第二不要讓勞工因為照顧而離職我認為絕對符合就業保險法的一個精神第三就業保險法裁員相對是穩定的去年救保應濟的那個保險費是330億實際給付的事實上是250億那帳面上的剩餘大概80億"},{"start":521.429,"end":527.738,"text":"也都能因為有剩餘所以依法撥補給就業安定基金40億所以增加這條10億的計畫應該不是難事吧"},{"start":530.455,"end":556.783,"text":"我跟文說明我還是分兩個部分第一個部分就是說對於長照相關的價別那要不要來規劃實施我覺得這部分我想我們是可以綜合思考的可是對於裁員的部分我還是要說因為那的確要判修法我這邊已經有法案提出來因為暈流亭的津貼其實是社會保險救保是社會保險的法定的紀錄"},{"start":558.143,"end":566.703,"text":"所以如果要把這個就是說因為舊保基本上比較處理的是跟留庭相關的比較不是處理個別的價別"},{"start":568.769,"end":586.145,"text":"那現在在處理的這個運營留庭的這個一日申請他其實也還是來自一個留庭的制度所以如果要從留庭的角度的話那他可能這個在目前的這個法規的框架裡面他其實並不是法定的給付的項目那如果要把它修進去的話那的確那可能也還要檢討費率的問題"},{"start":589.158,"end":603.885,"text":"我會問部長也可以去考慮說到底有什麼樣的資助這個因為去年進入到超高齡社會然後加上台灣為什麼少子化晚婚事實上也是一個原因所在所以夾心世代是存在的如果不去解決的話"},{"start":604.665,"end":633.278,"text":"那我覺得照顧離職這一塊就永遠沒解然後你的缺工的問題這個事實上是環環相扣而且再來事業單位也是支持的因為我們知道政策要推行明天跟企業一定要能夠協助在勞動部同一份調查其實也說得很明白將近有四成的事業單位是支持有這個價別而且逐年上升不支持的比率大幅下降所以這個政策不只是我們的受僱者支持僱主支持的也越來越多所以就剩政府看"},{"start":633.638,"end":662.676,"text":"要不要我還是因為我其實是希望這個議題可以正向討論是那可是所以這裡面第一個還是要先經過需求評估就是說到底有多少包括人有多少人需要然後哪些情境需要那需要的這個時間長短大概多少這才有辦法進入到底經費上面的思考那經費上的思考經費的尺度也會經費上的尺度也會來去思考說那不同的財源的適配性"},{"start":663.68,"end":692.758,"text":"因為經費尺度的差別會跟你裁員哪些比較適合會有關係所以我的意思說我們可以正向的來做很多的討論可是我覺得可能前面還是必須要先從需求的理解跟評估這邊開始來進行那剛才講說因為剛剛其中有一張講到舊保其實並不是純粹這個保費的盈餘就是80億其實裡面大概去年的保費的收支的盈餘的話大概是40億"},{"start":694.452,"end":711.333,"text":"不過我在這邊最後還是期待因為我剛剛講說這個已經是不可迴避的我們的政府的責任因為為什麼我們就是晚婚跟高齡化所以我覺得請勞動部跟衛福部是不是在5月1號也就勞動前提出我們的長照安排"},{"start":711.894,"end":726.312,"text":"假的事辦計畫的初步來運作 而且方案中當然要納入到薪資貼補的那個機制的一個設計 讓勞工在照顧初期能夠真正的請得起假 留得住工作 否則的話我覺得在勞"},{"start":727.608,"end":745.492,"text":"我們的照顧離職這個問題實際上是沒有解決的我們的缺工問題也沒辦法解決所以法案提出之後也請邀請我們的民間團體跟專家學者跟相關利害關係人來召喚示範計畫延伸計畫來針對於我們的適用對象薪資貼補的比例企業負擔的方式跟財務來進行完整的討論可以嗎好先做討論我想我知道洪部長剛剛提的有些問題有一些需要解決的可是我覺得這已經是不可迴避的"},{"start":757.932,"end":772.129,"text":"所以希望我們兩部長能夠一起促成在勞動節的時候給勞工一個保障好 謝謝好 謝謝任少偉的發言謝謝兩位部長的應答下一位我們請陳金輝委員發言"}]}},{"id":"167943","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167943","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e77fc048f53eb08c31db4e8dc12ee0255ec4551788d53590e071eed9bfd46deff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:30:57 - 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那我這邊想要特別提到一個狀態就說因為我後來去看了一下那個Grab在給美國政交委員會這邊所提出的一個年報當中的時候他這邊有特別提到了一個這個狀態那我想問幾個問題第一個情況就是針對剛剛我們講到說他只有暫時3.1%的持股他基本上就是"},{"start":120.748,"end":141.31,"text":"有重要的一個持股關係可是並沒有直接控制這樣的一個情況那我們公評會對於這樣子的一個狀態有沒有一個審查的標準還是到時候就用50%這邊最粗糙的方式這樣來看跟委員報告我們有一些量化的工具會針對這個持股比例對於後續結合以後"},{"start":142.011,"end":170.552,"text":"他的這個影響對市場價格影響我們會比較近客觀跟數據的客觀的分析所以其實並不是單純以50或不是50來做一個判斷那個就是如同剛剛我所講的我們會以實質的控制的能力 理解那我這邊想特別提到其實因為我們回來就針對國外部分的時候我們特別去看因為他在給美國的那個年報當中的時候他第12頁他自己就提到說他們之前在東南亞就是要"},{"start":171.252,"end":185.001,"text":"收購這個Uber的一個市場的時候他們出現了一個禁業禁止的一個狀態那某一個部分在整個這過程當中其實對於整個公平交易這樣的狀態的時候"},{"start":186.502,"end":211.66,"text":"感覺上有一點點灰色當然他還沒有違規違法這部分可是事實上確實也產生一些問題我們後來再去看整個Grab給美國的聯報當中我們看到他們在很多國家事實上在整個公平交易相關的領域其實是很多爭議的包括在新加坡他們曾經想要收購一個Chance Cab其實後來被終止了"},{"start":212,"end":215.564,"text":"後來被終止那麼在菲律賓這邊的時候因為他們違反了定價跟服務品的承諾被罰款100萬當然現在100萬美元當然現在他們還在訴訟爭議當中那菲律賓這邊其實也表示很可能會再提高對他們的一個罰金"},{"start":229.58,"end":256.269,"text":"那另外一個部分在馬來西亞這邊更關鍵因為在2019年的時候Grabber它濫用市場支配的地位然後對司機和合作夥伴施加限制性的一個條款然後被罰了2140萬美元那這個部分其實都是表示說Grabber這家公司在過去在國際當中的一些法尊的紀錄其實並不是那麼良好而且都牽涉到一些公平交易或者是市場壟斷的相關的一個事情針對這個部分"},{"start":259.11,"end":278.815,"text":"不知道主委如果說他們因為他們現在案子還沒有送價可是他們已經對市場上發布他們跟那個富盛大達成這樣的一個合意的一個狀態那對於這樣子他曾經在國外的市場出現很多個濫用市場力量違反主管機關附加條件還有傷害平台參與者權益這樣的一些記錄的時候我們對於這樣子的一個可能的一個併購方的時候那主委這邊怎麼看"},{"start":287.117,"end":310.359,"text":"我想在結合的審查部分當然我們主要是針對結合以後對市場結構的改變有沒有降低那個競爭的強度那剛剛委員所關切這些問題都是就是結合以後的行為濫用的問題那這部分當然公平會還是可以調查只是說我們的調查必須要有一些依據市場地位市場佔有率然後他的行為是不是真的有如同剛剛所舉的各國這種行為"},{"start":311.961,"end":330.322,"text":"因為我在想說之前大家擔心Uber其實會壟斷全部的市場那它現在因為跟Grab有很密切的一個關係它是重大的一個持股者然後可能會產生怎麼樣的實質影響力的部分確實是之後我們要做更精準的評估可是我們希望公評會這邊能夠嚴加把關"},{"start":332.665,"end":347.684,"text":"對於台灣的消費者還有真正在市場當中的從業者當中能夠做好最好的一個保障如果說這家廠商之前在海外有這麼多不適當的一些法尊記錄的時候那我們就希望更嚴格的來審查它好不好"},{"start":348.184,"end":375.373,"text":"謝謝委員提供這些資料我們會在審查的時候會有納入考慮OK那我想說最近那個國際上對整個定業制企業有一些所謂的暗黑模式這個部分也引起很大的關注所謂的暗黑模式就是說企業不是透過產品本身吸引用戶而是透過頁面設計然後資訊揭露的落差以及繁瑣的流程讓消費者在不完全之前的情況下做出決定甚至於想退都退不掉一個最典型的就是Adobe"},{"start":375.973,"end":400.985,"text":"那美國這邊的時候呢已經對於他的年度合約越角的方式這樣的一個做法已經產生了一個懲處那英國也要求去針對這家公司這樣子的一個做法的時候來做一個進行的一個那個調查台灣對於這樣子的一個情況有沒有做什麼樣的動作"},{"start":402.188,"end":408.087,"text":"據我的了解 Adobe 的行為似乎好像已經在網站上取消解約金的部分"},{"start":408.792,"end":437.531,"text":"那台灣的部分我知道像速發部他應該有已經制定那個定型化契約將來會對暗黑模式的相關行為列為是定型化契約裡面所必須要遵守的一個規定那剛剛委員所談到國外的這些經驗其實就我的了解國外處理這個問題的法律的依據大部分都不是競爭法不是所謂的公平教育法或是反托拉斯法大部分像美國他有一個特別的法規那其他國家有一些比較偏向於消費者保護的法規來處理這個問題"},{"start":439.052,"end":466.394,"text":"那當然並不是說在我們公平法裡面完全沒有著墨的空間有時候暗黑模式如果你在網路上你有揭示一些訊息這些訊息實際上是做不到的誤導消費者的我們不排除有可能構成不實廣告不過這些前提都建立在他有把一些在性質上是屬於暗黑的事先在網路上去散佈出來讓消費者誤以為真的是這樣那如果他都沒做其實我們就很難去用什麼不實廣告來處理這樣的問題OK"},{"start":468.556,"end":495.849,"text":"那我在想說因為現在這個那個數位經濟其實非常的發達啦那以這種訂閱的方式在為主要商業模式的企業其實非常非常的多所以我舉到這家公司的狀態的時候很大一個部分只是說針對這個部分就是我們只是針對這樣子所謂一個年度約的部分然後月腳的部分那當你要退出來的時候你要終止因為月腳很多消費者都以為說他可以直接終止"},{"start":496.93,"end":516.89,"text":"隨時終止那只要這個月處理完就好可是事實上我們發現他可能在這過程當中會有很多的一個懲罰條款會讓你要退出的時候門檻變得很多所以我們針對這個部分的時候不是針對這家公司而是針對這樣的產業我們希望公平會的時候能夠多加去注意因為現在這樣的情況其實非常的多"},{"start":517.45,"end":545.504,"text":"我們持續有在注意就是在我們公平法的法規授權範圍之內我們會去關切這個問題有沒有跟我們的公平交易法產生關聯在交易前的時候我們希望消費者是有被充分告知的不會有很多隱藏的一個陷阱那麼在整個如果說消費者要退訂的過程當中的時候呢也不會被限制的過於複雜讓消費者沒有辦法輕易的一個退訂那這個部分的時候我們希望那個主委這邊能夠特別的關注因為這"},{"start":546.184,"end":571.406,"text":"對整個消費者的權益來說其實是很重要的一個部分那我最後的部分就針對3月18號公平會這邊提出的生成式AI競爭政策這個部分那我簡單講一下因為你們在這報告裡面提到了雲端GPU基礎模型應用服務等等不同的領域我想對公平會來講這是同一個市場還是不同的市場"},{"start":573.451,"end":591.742,"text":"這取決於我們怎麼去看待這個產業我們在政策聲明裡面有談到我們回收回來的業者的意見普遍認為這個產業未來會走向所謂的生態系進展所以一旦把它視為是生態系的話那很多的個別的服務會整合在同一個模型底下"},{"start":592.242,"end":617.789,"text":"那對我們的市場界定會產生很大的挑戰所以剛剛委員這個問題是很好的問題但是很重要也很困難的問題這個必須要有一些相關的事證做我們後續判斷的基礎是 那我在想說因為整個甚至AI這部分其實可能是未來整個經濟的一個重要的一個趨勢也是消費者很重要的一個趨勢會影響到我們的人類生活非常的大所以針對這個部分我覺得它可能會建立更高的一個壟斷跟門檻"},{"start":619.229,"end":634.885,"text":"那既然會有更高的壟斷門檻跟我們的公平會關係就會密切所以我也很高興看到公平會這邊主動公佈了這樣的一個政策聲明表示公平會願意來擔起這個責任可是我們也目前看到的時候就說就是"},{"start":635.405,"end":658.734,"text":"怎麼執法的標準還有一些判準感覺都還沒有出來那我們希望這過程當中公平會能夠更加的積極然後來保障這個甚至是AI所產生的一些消費上面的一個公平性我們會隨時做滾動式的調整會隨著業界的發展來做我們對執法的準備目前這個只是初步我們對市場理解還有一些初步的執法立場的宣示那我們會持續不斷的清潔好 鄭義正部門請繼續加油謝謝 謝委員好 謝謝鄭義正委員"}]}},{"id":"167942","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167942","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4ee7e7d2eb9479da531db4e8dc12ee0255ec4551788d53590e9b6e307be05129615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:20:18 - 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謝謝好 謝謝主席 楊瓊英代言邀請主委請主委上台"},{"start":21.113,"end":36.944,"text":"指揮長那鑑於外送平台市場高度的一個集中在2024年底呢我們這個UberEats跟普遍達的申請合併案那因為市場的高度"},{"start":37.644,"end":63.631,"text":"这个高达九成的一个市占率所以当时呢他说影响整个市场的竞争所以最后公平会是否决是否决这也引起社会大众大家非常非常的关注但是近期东南亚数位这个服务商他宣布要以六亿美元来收购护片打我们台湾的外送这个业务网"},{"start":65.271,"end":70.456,"text":"但是我們也知道UBER是GREP最大的一個機構股東它幾乎佔了13%左右所以外界質疑是不是會透過股權結構 繞道來投資實際上"},{"start":82.128,"end":86.27,"text":"我們現在達成了原先被否決的市場整合效果那所以公平問你雖然也表示了個案是獨立審查不會因為舊案來影響新案但是最終的市場的一個結構仍舊會高度的集中那麼如果僅是以投資架構不同來重新來審查重新來審查"},{"start":110.379,"end":131.873,"text":"那麼可能會造成規避競爭審查的一個疑慮所以本席要在這邊請教請教Grab收購這個Hupenda的案中那Uber它身為主要的股東之一公平問你是不是會就實質控制力而非僅是以形式股權的一個結構來進行審查呢請做說明"},{"start":136.056,"end":153.092,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛委員講的沒錯我們在審查的時候我們會以實質的控制關係來判斷所以我們原則就是以實質控制力來做審查的精髓我跟委員再進一步說明就是說沒錯我們初步的了解是UberEats的控制大概百分之十三左右的股權"},{"start":154.553,"end":172.806,"text":"但是我們進一步去看到財報它的股權結構是有分不同的股權就是有些股權是沒有表決權或是表決權數比較多的所以實際上Uber對Grab的控制力可能沒有達到13.5這個數字所呈現出來不過我們在分析過程當中這個13.5這個形式上的要件會不會影響到結合以後"},{"start":174.867,"end":203.429,"text":"他透過某一種他一定會超半數以上嘛這個我們會後續會在分析的時候會把他納入分析的過程當中所以我們原則上還是以實質控制力為最重要的精髓審查方向那所以本席認為如果最終的市場他集中的效果跟先前遭到否決遭到否決的合併案是相近的那麼如果你公民會一旦"},{"start":203.889,"end":207.672,"text":"你的核准那等於你允許了這個業者透過繞道投資的方式來規避原有的反壟斷的一個審查"},{"start":215.407,"end":238.072,"text":"請再說說明所以剛剛委員講的沒錯就是說如果結合以後導致市場過度集中那這兩個案子基本上在股權在市場佔有率的影響前案跟後案是不太一樣前案結合以後九成大概市佔率會達到九成那這個案子是一家公司來接付PANDA的原先的地位所以事實上從初步來看的話它的市場結構是沒有太大的改變只是換一個人來做而已"},{"start":238.812,"end":267.294,"text":"那當然這個並不表示說一定都沒有問題我們還是在審查過程當中會進行這個市場整個整體分析來看看他對市場的影響程度我們唯一要避免落到投資的方式去取巧這個非常重要這第一點第二個我們要重視全我們市場的一個公平競爭你不能導致削弱了溢價的一個能力這是非常重要的也是我們消費者都在看的一個議題"},{"start":270.526,"end":290.8,"text":"因為我們的目的就是第一個不能壟斷而且市場不能沒有競爭對消費者來講能夠達到它的一個公平性那對業者也能夠達到一個市場的一個競爭這才能夠達到三贏這也是你公平會最重要的精神這個案子現在還沒進來但是我們分析的架構就如同剛剛委員講的"},{"start":291.861,"end":310.81,"text":"那個是一個大的架構我們一定會面面的考慮到這些問題好 也就是以實質控制力接下來本席要跟你討論深層次的人工智慧產業快速的發展那麼全球都在佈局大家都高度的關注大型科技公司在算力"},{"start":312.071,"end":330.207,"text":"以及在資料還有整個平台生態上的一個市場集中的這個問題那你在3月19號你也提出了公布出深層式AI競爭政策的一個宣布但是你提出了三個方向導向第一個議題"},{"start":331.348,"end":342.794,"text":"第二個證據第三個合理的原則為你執行的方向所以你認為到目前為止並沒有需要再修法的一個必要性但是AI產業它具有高度規模的這個經濟網路的一個效應所以如果從算力來看從雲端服務來看從"},{"start":354.059,"end":378.576,"text":"模型的一個平台來看它整個市場的力道力量正快速的在集中少數的跨國企業上那如果你僅以個案來作為審查那到時候你是不是有這個能力能夠因應的整個新型的新型態的一個壟斷跟競爭的一個限制行為那所以主委本席要請教"},{"start":379.637,"end":402.716,"text":"面對新城市AI你可能形成的平台壟斷與算力中心你未來會出現大型的科技公司透過資料算力生態系的一個優勢來排除這個競爭力那你是不是已經具備有監理的這個工具呢"},{"start":403.96,"end":420.247,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個因為就當如同委員所講的整個AI市場的變化太快了所以我們之所以做這個AI的生成是公眾意見其實就是讓公平會進一步去了解目前市場的現況那針對所可能產生的這些相關的競爭問題包含委員剛剛所關切的問題"},{"start":421.047,"end":441.305,"text":"我們就目前現階段看起來我們公平法裡面的既有架構是可以初步來處理但是我們要強化的部分是在於我們數位執法的能力就是當業者使用某些特定的數位技術在進行違反競爭行為我們是不是有能力去破解這樣的技術重點就在這裡所以你認為你不需要修法你的基本架構是夠的但是"},{"start":443.547,"end":460.936,"text":"日新月異的比如說數位您剛才所說的我們要怎麼去應對也就是本席說的你的監理工具你具備了嗎這個我們持續都在精進包含我們不管在軟硬體部分還有在人才訓練的部分我們都積極的這個部分必須要與時俱進好 一定要加油那接下來最後一個議題本席告訴你土方的問題"},{"start":467.901,"end":478.804,"text":"在這個2月25號的時候 國土署正式給你公文請公平會協助調查 釐清是否有涉及聯合壟斷以及調檔的這個問題 請教到目前為止你們查的情況怎麼樣其實在跟國土署進行協商之前我們已經有進行市場進行了解那到目前為止我們發現市場上的價格並沒有聯合一致的情況"},{"start":493.948,"end":499.393,"text":"但是普遍都漲了三倍啊他是漲價對這個漲價很奇怪但是你認為很奇怪我們消費者更奇怪啊公關工程都已經影響了各縣市都已經困難了啊那怎麼辦連國土署都請求你協助啊所以我們請國土署說能夠協助我們如果他手邊有比較具體的證據可以協助我們那我們來判斷是不是有聯合行為你剛才說漲價很奇怪"},{"start":519.932,"end":526.419,"text":"但是國土署是政府機構都要求你協助我們跟國土署談的我們的分工是我們會針對聯合漲價這部分來處理那你社會現象就是漲啊對啊 有沒有漲到大的一致嘛那你也已經影響到公共工程啊民間也影響啊 電視也影響啊"},{"start":537.91,"end":542.654,"text":"聯合協會的發動必須要市場價格有一致同業之間的價格趨於一致我們才可以 本席具體要求喔也就是說你們告訴社會大眾說要有業者來檢舉你們才會立案調查這一點本席認為已經社會普遍化的一個困難你們應該要主動調查我們有主動啦 對不對不能等到有人檢舉你才要因為已經是社會非常普遍的一個問題產生現象了嘛"},{"start":565.652,"end":581.547,"text":"還是跟委員報告一下我們有主動去調查但是要不要立案這個立案要有一定的基本的法律的條件就是我剛剛講的業者之間的價格是不是趨於一致那這個時候我們可以立案那調查了解市場現況那個價格的波動我們是一直都有持續在做市場競爭的這個機制是整個產業"},{"start":585.311,"end":589.915,"text":"聯動非常重要的一個關鍵本席說的連國土署都請你必須要協助趕快去查有沒有聯合壟斷趕快去查有沒有這個現象代表著社會目前對這個議題它是產生困難的疑惑的所以公民會的立場非常的重要所以這一點本席也希望在國土署2月25號函請"},{"start":609.409,"end":623.133,"text":"正是含情你公平會協助調查釐清是否涉及聯合漲價與壟斷的行為這一點你務必要做到道對不對我們持續都有在做了好 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,"end":1547.609,"text":"那我們繼續開會先來介紹在場的委員還有與會的官員陳永康委員好 謝謝許巧欣委員謝謝王安祥委員謝謝王逸川委員謝謝沈伯陽委員謝謝"},{"start":1552.679,"end":1580.846,"text":"接下来介绍我们在场的与会官员那部长顾立雄部长谢谢财政部的政务次长阮清华次长谢谢次长法务部的参事廖江县参事谢谢参事行政院主级总组副主级长陈慧娟副主级长谢谢学习人员请参考会议桌上的所附资料谢谢那我们继续审查民众党党团提案第六条有关收支规划财务计划的条文请大家翻到"},{"start":1582.151,"end":1586.497,"text":"條文對照表的第26頁那首先我們先請提案黨團民眾黨黨團說明謝謝"},{"start":1597.755,"end":1622.19,"text":"主席大家早,應該是我們的第六條,就是二十七條上面我們基本上還是一樣,因為我們台灣民眾黨一向是非常重視財政紀律所以基本上我們希望在籌編定期預算的時候要考慮現在大家生活上非常多的所謂的少子女化的部分"},{"start":1622.93,"end":1641.944,"text":"所以希望能夠提供這個預算基本上對一些少子女化的相關的政策的一些衝擊的一些報告以上謝謝委員的說明接下來我們請主管機關說明請行政院主計總處或者是財政部或者兩位都一起表示意見"},{"start":1643.402,"end":1656.9,"text":"主席總處在這邊跟各位委員做一個報告就是說民進黨團所提這個條文實際上我們現在就是這樣在辦理就是在我們訂定的中央"},{"start":1658.021,"end":1680.486,"text":"及地方政府預算籌編原則也有類似的一個條文不過我們是考量就是說這個不管是高齡或少子女化我們在近年我們都有編特別預算的情形之下我們都還是有成長以少子女化來看107年194億到115年已經成長到1136億"},{"start":1686.887,"end":1709.155,"text":"所以可以看得出來我們都是有遵照這個條文在辦理所以我們是建議說因為往年的特別條例都沒有特別在續名這個因為已經有規範了是不是在體力上讓他一致就不用在這邊做再一次的規範以上做一個說明謝謝"},{"start":1714.435,"end":1740.022,"text":"財政部表示意見嗎?這樣就可以了嗎?不用一樣的意見是尊重主計總署的意見所以財政部的意見大概一致那這個部分是不是請王委員要不要考慮一下行政院主計總署的說明因為好像是基本上把條上都是一致的嘛已經都在做對那是否還要有增訂這一條"},{"start":1743.8,"end":1764.502,"text":"我們黨團這邊的決議基本上就是希望這個算是一次提醒因為這次特別條例的經費其實蠻高所以寫在這邊可能是一種比較希望能夠提醒現在我們這個社會高齡跟少子女化的一個狀況謝謝王委員 那請徐小新委員"},{"start":1766.76,"end":1792.828,"text":"呃我的建議是因為在這個第六條那只有這個台灣民眾黨提嘛那我想我們這邊沒有提案那對這個提這個提沒有太大的意見那呃所以我是建議說我們也是把他送這個協商保留啊也可以加快我們的審議速度謝謝好謝謝許曉勳委員我們補充介紹羅美玲委員好謝謝還有然後沈伯陽委員巴雅"},{"start":1794.953,"end":1809.644,"text":"馬文君委員我想這個最後應該會是保留大家在保留之前我想發表一下意見就是第六條前半段就是說這個要衡量人口結構變動因素啊什麼這聽起來應該本來就在做的事情剛剛主席總書也有講"},{"start":1810.925,"end":1838.823,"text":"啊但因為這是特別條例啦齁它不是放在公務預算那你最主要會影響到其他或什麼白籍啦什麼那是指在公務預算啊因為它今天是特別條例特特別條例的原因就是不要影響到公務預算啊公務預算就會處理高齡化跟少子少子化這些問題所以就是說啊今天變特別條例的目的就是這樣子所以有這個這個你你編了特別條例你就是不會去擠壓到其他的公務預算啦那"},{"start":1839.523,"end":1860.412,"text":"所以我覺得這個後半段感覺是有點有點 對有點奇怪啦 有點突兀啦所以當然我們就發表一下這樣的意見我們補充 謝謝沈博洋委員我們補充介紹陳俊銘委員 劉徐庭委員黃建斌委員 馬文君委員接下來請馬文君委員之後 請羅美玲委員發言馬委員要發言嗎"},{"start":1868.982,"end":1884.372,"text":"是劉許廷文要發言還是不好意思現在是剛才我們想確認一下第六條是還有要發言的嗎沒有了喔 抱歉我剛剛看你們手機"},{"start":1889.206,"end":1907.938,"text":"我是贊同沈博洋委員的這個說法因為我們現在要審的是特別條例不是一般預算所以就沒有到擠壓到所謂社福的這個支出的這個問題而且真的是放在這裡真的是有一點不倫不類所以我是覺得建議這個應該要拿掉好 以上謝謝好 謝謝馬文君委員"},{"start":1912.938,"end":1930.507,"text":"這條議案是民眾黨提的不過我們剛剛在聽到委員的說法其實負債就是負債它對所有的財政其實都是有正面影響的所以不是說把它編在特別預算就跟我們的財政狀況會切割然後就不會有負債或不會有排擠你的"},{"start":1931.367,"end":1948.635,"text":"財政狀況它都會互相排擠我相信這個執政黨還有相關的單位非常清楚所以這個部分如果說沒有影響那我們也尊重提案的一個考量如果沒有公示當然我們還是送協商不過我覺得財政的規劃財政的紀律這是要有並納入考量的 謝謝好 王玉川委員"},{"start":1960.431,"end":1984.172,"text":"這一條放在這裡很突兀 台灣民眾黨你要考慮一下特別條例放這一條以後每一個特別條例你們都要放這一條不然就代表以後你們不重視了因為這句話是一個常識是一個大家都知道的事情你硬要在這裡放這一條那以後只要立法院通過特別條例台灣民眾黨都一定要提這一條"},{"start":1984.873,"end":2002.381,"text":"不然就是以後你們不重視不然為什麼這一條會這麼突兀的放在這裡然後別的特別條例都沒有放這一條所以這個我是建議不要啦因為要不然要大家大家特別條例每一個法案的修訂都多這一條聽起來都很有道理然後完全沒有意義好 謝謝劉許廷委員先然後再請王安祥委員抱歉"},{"start":2014.759,"end":2028.918,"text":"這我覺得是這樣就是說因為這一次特別條例額度比較高所以總是有多一分重視所以我想有黨團提出這樣子的意見我相信大家可以理解是利益良善但一樣就是說這件事情從幾個層面來看第一個叫做可行性"},{"start":2029.679,"end":2056.492,"text":"就是說如果這件事情有影響軍購預算執行等等會造成實際上的障礙那就要在討論的過程中及早續名然後大家想到一個好的方法如果它相對來講對可行性是沒有影響的本來就是例行的那我覺得大家心態放寬一點也不是不視為一個方法那我覺得像這些都是比較詳細比較細節的配套措施就如同我們昨天在討論的時候我有建議嘛就是政府部門針對這些比較說配套的或者說一些補充說明的這樣子的一些的法條如果能夠做一個中整"},{"start":2056.852,"end":2080.832,"text":"然後要提出一個有效而且精簡也務實的建議的話我倒覺得可以提出來然後大家共同商議達成共識我認為這是可以努力的方向 以上謝謝謝謝牛許廷委員我們補充介紹林楚英委員跟王定一委員那接下來請王安祥委員我說明一下因為昨天其實那個第五條我們其實有設計一個專報所以因為昨天那個都已經就是保留宋協商那是不是應該有一些我們其實這個這一條跟第五條有一些連動"},{"start":2081.653,"end":2108.162,"text":"既然第五條已經保留我們是不是建議第六條也是保留然後送協商以上OK 好 那黃定委員要發言然後黃定委員發言完之後請顧部長我們這幾天還是很努力希望是真的溝通能夠達成共識雖然很多條文其實私底下我們談起來好像好像可以有共識但是不好意思這個黨派之間還是阻礙了很多東西的進展"},{"start":2109.122,"end":2134.804,"text":"這一條是這樣子沒有人會反對人口結構啦高齡化這些設計啦那它適不適合出現在這個條文就好像我今天在交通委員會要討論安全貿是500塊錢還是350比較好我裡面再加住一條條文說提出條文之前我要把人口結構老化什麼放在裡面沒有人反對這個宗旨是這個條文出現在這裡面五年後十年後回來看"},{"start":2136.278,"end":2151.255,"text":"適不適合了那其實有一個另外一種做法就是說我們在立法要職裡面把它載明說這樣子的國防支出那我們怕預算排擠啦或者什麼其他考量的話"},{"start":2152.055,"end":2171.696,"text":"我們希望整個行政部門就這件事情呢提出一些看法或專報或說明而不是在法條的本身那既可以達到王陽祥委員重視這個高齡化的重視這些人口結構等等的想法又不是在法律的本文"},{"start":2172.617,"end":2191.226,"text":"坦白講它不是直接正相干的一個條文這樣安排是不是比較妥適所以請提案的委員跟我們委員會可以思考就是說這個條文的內容放在哪裡都覺得是不是壞事但是它沒有必要出現在法律的本文裡面我們可以把它放在立法要旨"},{"start":2191.826,"end":2210.237,"text":"或者附帶決議認為說我們關心到預算的動之排擠相關的因應請行政部門因為這不是國防部單一的事情行政部門就這個事情呢提出一些說明或看法這樣可以兩全其美在條文上比較扎實那在"},{"start":2212.577,"end":2239.177,"text":"個別委員或個別黨團關心的事務上呢也做到兼顧啦以上我做這個建議好 謝謝王委員那 顧部長說明之後林楚英委員我只是建議就是說因為那個第五條已經就這個相關的涉及到這個舉債的額度還有那個相關的這些要符合財政紀律的相關規範第五條的規範然後另外在第五條裡面有提到"},{"start":2239.897,"end":2260.599,"text":"當然我們會希望就是說不會是說專案報告會要同意才能夠再提預算那如果提出預算案的時候要兼提一個報告那我們會將這個報告再柔和這個大家的意見然後再提出來那所以其實民眾黨第六條可以併到他那個"},{"start":2262,"end":2273.027,"text":"要求那個報告事項內容我們可以再相對提出一些文字上面的一個修正然後再來看看大家是不是有共識這樣子好 謝謝部長那林楚瑩委員"},{"start":2279.084,"end":2296.384,"text":"謝謝主席其實我相信民眾黨寫第六條的時候一定是希望能夠考量權衡到民生的需求那這個利益我相信其實在場的所有的委員沒有人會反對但是為什麼會有一個所謂的特別預算不放在年度預算或是中央政府總預算"},{"start":2297.205,"end":2319.619,"text":"其實就是因為希望把這樣的一個預算匡列出來之後然後讓總預算或是社會福利的預算能夠好好的去做執行那麼我也認為因為像這一次我們前面通過的這個組織機關事實上就是國防部那麼國防部跟其他的包括負責社會福利或者是少子化等等議題的其實是另外一個"},{"start":2320.259,"end":2325.184,"text":"部會那麼你在一個國防部組織的這樣的一個特別條例未來要編列預算的單位當中你還要去把這個別的部會的納管的議題做一個大前提放進來這個其實在政府的整個權力的所謂分工上面其實是"},{"start":2339.5,"end":2355.007,"text":"法例上面是有點奇怪的所以我也同意就像王立委員所說的我們可以把大前提寫在前面的提案的說明上面那麼我相信這樣的一個以社會福利跟少子化為優先我想這個應該也是屬於全民共識啦所以我會認為這樣的文字跟內容事實上可以放在所謂的法案說明當中我覺得會是更加燙的"},{"start":2367.529,"end":2379.66,"text":"謝謝林楚雲委員所有委員應該都有表示意見了想再確認一下剛才顧部長的建議在野黨的黨團們是否能夠接受"},{"start":2385.703,"end":2412.798,"text":"那我們民主進步黨的委員我們是不是就OK那我們看起來沒有共識就是進入暫停暫且先保留起來好謝謝那補充介紹黃仁委員好謝謝那我們接續審查行政院提案第六條民眾黨黨團提案第七條國民黨黨團提案第七條有關於預算執行及審計的條文先請主管機關說明"},{"start":2416.061,"end":2439.674,"text":"我們的條文就是依循過往這個特別條例的一個這個內容就是說預算的執行這個要審計機關要依法辦理審計來說明我們還是要接受就是這個條例的預算相關的執行都是還是要接受審計的並沒有脫離監督"},{"start":2444.266,"end":2472.747,"text":"好謝謝部長我們請提案黨團民眾黨黨團說明好這個我們這個當然剛國防部這邊有提到部長說的那當然還是必須要依照審計機關的一些事項辦理不過我們在這個條文裡面這個把那個俄康的编詞寫得更清楚當然就是事前的部分我們其實也加入了這個所謂的事後的部分也是屆滿這個次年的五月底前必須要做一些"},{"start":2473.987,"end":2498.496,"text":"總結的報告另外我想第三項是我們那時候討論的時候其實非常重要的一件事情就是達到3000美元以上的軍事投資的建案我們希望能夠落實所謂的軍工工業合作的部分所以我們這次也把這樣的概念寫在我們的第七條的第三項裡面"},{"start":2500.416,"end":2526.982,"text":"第四項就是書面報告的部分必須要同時送到立法院來被查大概就這幾項就是台灣民主黨對於整個不議題的部分的意見 以上沒有第三項 就是綜合的 綜合的 後面的"},{"start":2543.293,"end":2548.517,"text":"那好呃民眾黨團說明完之後我們請國民黨黨團說明好不要好不要訪問委員"},{"start":2562.265,"end":2570.522,"text":"國民黨黨團先說明我代表黨員,不是黨團"},{"start":2576.172,"end":2594.411,"text":"好 針對第七條的這個部分這一條是為了確保國防預算的使用具有外部的一個監督經過延宕這件事已經讓國人非常的不滿這方面還是應該建立了一個明確的行政責任"},{"start":2595.692,"end":2618.003,"text":"國防特別預算不只是要花錢,而是要在對戰力成果的負責根據過去對美軍購的經驗錢花了,且遲遲無法建立戰力那會有這樣的一個餘力,不是沒有道理的如果有這麼大筆的錢花下去,看不到成果,還沒有人需要負責的話"},{"start":2619.284,"end":2639.129,"text":"那我想這個民主國家責任的一個政治該由誰負責的一個樣貌所以以上來好反應謝謝謝謝黃安委員那等一下請委員回覆等一下委員要發言之前我們先請這個剛才有提到組織總署要表示意見組織總署針對"},{"start":2645.036,"end":2665.159,"text":"就是主席總署針對民眾黨團的版本第七條第一項的第二款裡面提到主管機關依預算法第六十三條辦理流用前應經立法院同意那我們在這邊做一個報告就是有關"},{"start":2667.04,"end":2693.425,"text":"這個流用的規定當時設計是在年度預算的時候考量年度預算的籌編到真正執行有很長一段時間所以賦予行政部門有一個可以流用的規定所以這是一個授權的一個規定那以往在特別條例的部分甚至可以排除這個流用的限制"},{"start":2694.125,"end":2722.772,"text":"那今天這個黨團所提這個條文是比年度預算流用的規定更為嚴格就是說本來是有授權的現在還要經過立法院同意那我們考量就是說國防特別預算就是基於83條它的一個緊急的特性所以我們建議這個條文這個流用要立法院同意這個部分是不是可以刪除"},{"start":2729.22,"end":2735.628,"text":"謝謝主席總書的說明那在這邊要補充嗎沒有好那法務部要不要補充一下剛剛在主席"},{"start":2741.653,"end":2768.308,"text":"那我們針對國民黨團提案的版本第7條第7條的第三項部分提供一點意見就是說第7條的第三項是規定審計機關在本條例的這個計劃進行這個它的執行成效進行這個考核那如果發現了有"},{"start":2770.287,"end":2789.873,"text":"公務人員違法失職導致執行成效不彰的這種情形應將執行機關的首長跟相關主管移送監察院來調查懲戒這個部分是涉及到預算計劃執行"},{"start":2792.694,"end":2819.445,"text":"的監督考核那關於這個部分審計法跟監察法呢有明確的這個規定然後審計法就預算計劃的這個執行他的監督考核呢他設置有這個完整的集合制度那對於呢公務人員如果有違法失職或者是執行績效低落的這種情形"},{"start":2820.854,"end":2841.255,"text":"依照審計法的規定他們本來就可以報請監察院來依法處理那監察院依監察法的規定如果發現公務人員有違法失職的這種情勢那他們是向懲戒機關提出這一個彈劾案那也就是說"},{"start":2843.86,"end":2860.397,"text":"監察院他們調查彈劾的對象是違法失職的人員那後續的程序呢也是向懲戒機關也就是懲戒法院來提出彈劾案那是不是構成彈劾那是不是構成懲戒"},{"start":2862.12,"end":2883.957,"text":"這個部分還有賴於懲戒法院後續的司法審理程序所以我們查案是直接標定如果有違法失職的這種情勢發生的時候標定是直接將機關的這個首長跟相關主管移送監察院去調查懲戒那這樣的一個設計我想跟"},{"start":2885.73,"end":2896.621,"text":"審計法還有監察法剛才所提的這些規定有違禁相符的地方這一個部分是健全大院能夠斟酌審議以上說明"},{"start":2907.474,"end":2923.702,"text":"好 謝謝訪問部的說明那接下來我們因為剛才有依次是陳永康委員 王定宇委員 黃建斌委員跟李楚音委員 然後徐曉欣委員那我們先請然後馬文君委員沒有漏掉了好 那我們先請陳永康委員主席"},{"start":2928.306,"end":2945.152,"text":"主席 各位同仁 我在这边提出一个意见供我们的台湾民众党 包括王委员我提出一个建议 请供做参考在您的第7条的下面快总结的时候 主管机关"},{"start":2946.652,"end":2972.298,"text":"就第四條核定循外購程序採購金額3000萬以上的這種軍事投資建案應該將工業合作納入規劃那我這邊做一個補充說明根據美國國防部現在叫戰爭部的安和局他的FMS軍售的這個採購的要求裡面軍售是不含攻核不含計轉"},{"start":2973.678,"end":2992.98,"text":"那如果你要把这个公和要求放进去它是外加假设你3000亿美元的这个军售案你要求公和10%那就变成3300万这个300万的公和他再把这300万的公和转给美国的得标厂商"},{"start":2993.641,"end":3015.267,"text":"可是這300萬是我們國防部要出的可是300萬轉給國防廠商以後它變成美元點它的實質價值可能不到你原來的一半所以對國防部來講在軍售案要加工合可能是不划算的商售是有工合的是從內涵在做抵銷這個我提供您做一個參考"},{"start":3019.281,"end":3037.031,"text":"好 謝謝陳永康委員接下來請王定宇委員好 謝謝主席我第一點跟陳永康委員提的是一樣因為供貨點的運用放在軍購就是說我們的不管是我們在FMS跟DCS的差異你把它放在FMS對國家是不划算的"},{"start":3039.153,"end":3058.17,"text":"我們昨天已經談到這個概念FMS跟DCS軍售跟商售都是我們國家合法取得軍事裝備的方式也都要該國的國家政府的輸出許可不是因為一個商它就好像跟民間做生意一樣它其實是取得方式不一樣各有優缺點"},{"start":3060.678,"end":3088.99,"text":"軍售軍購透過軍售透過FMS是要跟該國政府的軍方透過美國陸軍部去採購的那個這個炮兵雷達等等這個是軍售案那他要繳一個服務費按照這個比例的百分之多少交給對方固定的那採購的話是他們該國的軍方呢會把幾個國家一起來買等於是代買代送那裡面很多行政作業是由該國政府處理"},{"start":3089.77,"end":3116.69,"text":"那商售是我們尋求契約商而契約商要得到該國通過之後那我們雙方在簽訂商業契約的時候不管是公合、寄轉、售後服務等等這是另外一塊都有優點也都有缺點它只是方式之一所以第一點我是呼應那個這個剛才陳永康委員所提到這個部分是不是多考量一下我們在國家的利益上而不是再強調這跟黨派是無關的第二個"},{"start":3117.811,"end":3146.911,"text":"這一個如果我們原來的法台灣其實我們的審計制度我們的預算審計其實算是很優秀的那審計單位也相當獨立所以如果原來的預算或審計相關法例已有規定的就按照那個法令來處理因為這是一個幾十年來長期而穩定的架構我們不用再另外跌船駕屋讓這個法條更neat更精簡更紮實一點第三個流用的部分"},{"start":3147.711,"end":3163.631,"text":"其實流用跟挪用不一樣在合法為前提下A科目勝於流出到B科目這個叫流用而且不得超過20%在同一個科目裡面的動用叫做雲芝"},{"start":3164.332,"end":3183.048,"text":"但是呢如果是改變原預算用途比如說把金財門留到資本門那個叫挪用所以挪用流用雲芝是不一樣的概念所以流用其實是在合法的前提下資金的調度而且不得於20%那為什麼我們預算法會同意這樣做因為有些狀況下"},{"start":3184.71,"end":3200.468,"text":"這樣處理是因應緊急需求或者資金調度的活絡我們如果綁死說不行說不行的話等於是把法律原來允許的一些作業上彈性把它剝奪掉了適不適合大家可以討論那我倒是建議"},{"start":3202.209,"end":3230.809,"text":"現在這是一個授權編列特別預算的特別條例法源所以如果我們未來國防部會根據這個法源授權把要用的預算明細送進來那也許在某幾筆這一筆要買海馬仕的我們不准你留用我們可以綁在個別的預算上而不是通則上那個王遠東意思就是你綁在通則上會全部沒有彈性但是我們未來在審查預算說這一筆是要買海馬仕的我不准你"},{"start":3232.156,"end":3249.398,"text":"留用我們可以把綁在個別的預算上可以來討論這樣既可以達到你要的目效果又不會讓我們的法條失去彈性這個是給這個提案委員的建議所以我是建議說這是一個授權的法條"},{"start":3250.379,"end":3273.852,"text":"那也就是這幾天有幾位委員提到的一開始想說幾張紙啊怎麼樣子 其實授權法條在戈克奧下寫不出一本啦他就是七條八條九條授權法條之後的重點在預算編列預算編列送進來明細細項那個會整本的我們現在很多的疑慮很多想要談的其實是在預算編列那一塊卻把它轉成"},{"start":3275.353,"end":3300.57,"text":"這個一開始國防部其實被罵得有點冤枉這個一張紙兩張紙要1.25兆其實不管幾兆啦特別條例它一定就是這樣子所以我們在這個法條的設計上可能就大原則把它框定那很多我們在意的部分在預算細項送進來的時候我們可以來做處理那這個這樣的處理其實是比較妥適給同仁們做建議謝謝王委員 接下來請黃建斌委員"},{"start":3308.315,"end":3313.639,"text":"國民黨提出版本第七條為什麼會強調計畫執行的績效管考還有執行進度跟立法院報告因為之前軍購武器交付都有延宕的情況"},{"start":3323.946,"end":3339.842,"text":"像我們海軍號原本預定在2022年的11月要交艦那到現在還在海側那交艦日期也不知道什麼時候要武器另外還有F16戰機AGM-154空對地飛彈MK48魚雷等三艦因為美方的交付延遲嚴重的影響到我們國防的戰備"},{"start":3343.846,"end":3361.136,"text":"所以國民黨版本才會規定軍官要專案列管掌握進度並且針對這個違法的部分影響軍購的這些人要移送監察院來懲戒然後確保我們軍購武器可以如期的交付那我想這每一筆錢都是花在刀口上我也是希望我能夠透過監督"},{"start":3363.277,"end":3374.803,"text":"呃的還有這個監督這個績效跟管考才確保這一這些能夠完全的來執行那這邊邀請我們執政黨民眾黨還有所有的委員共和來支持我們的提案的版本謝謝謝謝 接下來我們請林楚瑩委員"},{"start":3386.529,"end":3404.221,"text":"林楚瑩第二次發言我想其實這三個版本要討論的就是接下來如果特別預算編出來之後後續的執行我想本席在這個國防外交委員會之前剛好在財政委員會那這個也是為什麼今天其實是國防跟財政兩個委員會的聯席今天在場包括剛剛其實主席也讓法務部還有審計部特別他們有官員列席跟報告那為什麼我會支持行政院版的"},{"start":3416.449,"end":3438.317,"text":"版本其實很簡單的我想所有的法規跟法條它在我們國家的制度當中有審計相關的單位它是職權獨立然後有預算的編列跟執行的時候也都有相關的預算法規在進行討論那麼言下之意就是其實行政院版非常清楚它就是跟你講說這個預算的實施就是審計機關來依法執行如果說今天"},{"start":3442.838,"end":3449.961,"text":"這個裡頭有任何的不法情況出現我相信今天在場的法務部或審計部他們本來就依他們的職權他們會進行調查跟了解那麼當然國民黨跟民眾黨他們所編列的第七條寫了很多的附加條款包括剛剛國民黨的委員也提到了有一些延宕的狀況但是我想其實在國防委員會大家就非常清楚這個是一個賣方市場"},{"start":3468.669,"end":3490.786,"text":"包括我們以現在來講都還只是發架書然後都還沒有真正的進入後續跟美方跟廠商來進行議價的階段那麼如果這樣你就把期程訂定了我要強調的是在國民黨版當中他直接就想說如果成效低於核定的進度50%要將執行機關的首長跟相關的主管"},{"start":3496.71,"end":3516.889,"text":"要送監察院來做懲戒那麼像這樣的一個大潛艇的匡列是不是就已經設下了陷阱要讓現在在負責的國軍弟兄好像就已經陷他們於嘴我要強調的是顧立雄顧部長他是政治人民但是其他後面坐在這邊陪我們一起審這個條例的這些我們"},{"start":3520.107,"end":3542.884,"text":"國防部的現在中將上將等等難道他們就因為這個賣方市場你無法確定的時間低於50%你要幫他們送監察院懲戒嗎而我相信不論是審計單位或是監察單位他們是因為看到裡頭有不法他們才會依法行政然後依法來進行處理或者是來偵辦我要強調的是為什麼是50%"},{"start":3548.948,"end":3554.411,"text":"而這個50%是賣方市場的50%站在我的立場我同意接下來相關的採購或者是合約你在訂定的過程當中而且我要強調的是在我們過往所有的政府的採購標案一定在後面都會附加有所謂的罰則包括延檔包括我們現在在講海昆號他如果沒有趕上騎乘他就是會罰錢會罰款"},{"start":3575.143,"end":3594.154,"text":"但是這個如果擴大延伸到所謂定一個所謂進度然後你要去懲罰相關的首長跟相關的主管機關我認為這個根本就是在恫嚇要求這些相關處理的公務人員或是我們國家捍衛國家的這些軍人們你會害怕"},{"start":3595.134,"end":3610.869,"text":"所以我認為這個裡頭完全在第一時間你就限定了我要再強調是軍購我相信現場很多人比我更了解是專家你們都知道這是賣方市場而現在的進度掌握難道說是因為他們催就可以打造出來嗎難道說海昆號"},{"start":3613.371,"end":3635.007,"text":"現在大家一直在講用海昆號那我們都不是講安全第一嗎如果沒有趕上進度那這些所謂的相關的主管要送監察院來做懲戒我覺得這個根本是拿國家安全拿國防安全在開玩笑所以我還是支持行政院的版本"},{"start":3635.99,"end":3643.487,"text":"謝謝林楚英委員那接下來我們依次是徐曉新委員馬文君委員 賴世寶委員 王定宇委員然後陳永康委員第二次發言"},{"start":3644.281,"end":3668.019,"text":"好謝謝主席喔那這個第七條的第一次發言那我想呢這一條看起來是除了行政院的版本比較簡單之外那民眾黨跟國民黨的版本那內容蠻多的那也有比較大的這個重整跟整合的空間所以先講結論那應該是能夠保留協商那我相信在協商之後能夠有聽取大家意見之後有一個更完善的一個安排喔"},{"start":3668.539,"end":3686.77,"text":"那這邊接下來是我個人的一些意見那我同意剛才這個提到就是說有關預算法的這個流用那能夠保持部分的彈性這個也可以讓這個我們主管機關那他能夠在這個預算的使用上面不要符合特別條例的這個想法"},{"start":3687.458,"end":3691.943,"text":"那在這個向立法院提出這個總結報告或是專案報告的這個部分那我想這個後續那或許民眾黨在這個第三這個他們這個第三款前面就是這邊有關主管機關在什麼什麼屆滿施行屆滿"},{"start":3705.859,"end":3721.384,"text":"之日次年五月底前那做總結報告送到立法院那國民黨這邊寫的是說那這個呢相關列管的執行然後進度績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告這有點相似那我覺得這個部分那也有一個整合的空間那這個"},{"start":3723.365,"end":3728.088,"text":"然後再來就是有關於這個剛剛講到審計法案相關法規規定這個完全同意那但是我會建議說因為這一次的這個特別條例的預算那是這個匡列的這個這個金額是比較高額的那把審計機關它原本的這個規定"},{"start":3742.176,"end":3768.137,"text":"如果重新简要的在这个第七条当中做一个说明的话那对于一般人民在审视法条的时候那也能够更能够理解所以合乎于原本审计法的法规规定的部分我觉得简要的列入是没有问题的也可以让大家比较知道说这个东西呢如果是有公务人员失职违法的话那确实那是会有相关的审计机关的法院依据去做办理的"},{"start":3768.797,"end":3784.07,"text":"那至於後面這個有關執行成效的部分我個人意見是這樣子對於執行的成效因為這個核定進度是主管機關他去做的核定所以我們理論上還是希望他能夠達到一定的水平以上而不是沒有任何規範"},{"start":3785.071,"end":3810.819,"text":"但是我也同樣的同意針對於就是說行政首長他可能是有政治責任的但是其他的相關主管那我們屬於這個公務人員我覺得也不應該讓他們去背上這樣子在法條上面就有一個責任在所以在這個部分我覺得這裡還是有一個可以協商的空間在的就是說我們希望我簡單講我們希望仍然在你的核定進度上面要有一定的這個進展"},{"start":3813.24,"end":3828.071,"text":"因為你可能每個會起來報告說要有個進展因為民眾也真的如同剛才前面國民黨委員提到的是很在乎那是否有延宕的問題可是送到監察院懲戒的部分那我在這邊我會強調就是說我覺得一般的公務人員我們的國軍弟兄那是不是可以把他這個"},{"start":3834.355,"end":3850.402,"text":"拿掉而不是說一般相關的主管他也要被送懲戒那因為他如果有違法的話前面審計法已經講有違法失職的部分是要被調查的那但是如果是因為核定進度比較低的話那機關首長負政治責任我同意"},{"start":3850.962,"end":3875.215,"text":"但是后续的相关其他的这个公务人员的主管我觉得不应该把这个责任那放在他们的身上那会是一个比较合理的方式所以我也希望说这一条我们可以保留协商在后续协商的时候那可以有一个这综合大家所有的意见之后那比较更能够上路执行然后和呼吁法理情的一个条文谢谢好谢谢徐小新委员接下来我们请马文君委员"},{"start":3884.253,"end":3887.758,"text":"謝謝主席針對大家討論的這個部分剛剛就民眾黨提出第七條的部分主管機關依預算法第63條辦理流用之前應經立法院同意其實這個他不是我們一般的預算所以他"},{"start":3901.155,"end":3909.721,"text":"要辦理流用之前經立法院同意好像也沒有什麼至愛難行的地方因為你要流用我們現在會通過這一筆預算就是因為國防部也說這是經過非常縝密的一個規劃那包括像對美的軍購他們也都是同意的然後特別條例又是因應緊急的狀況所以他如果要"},{"start":3925.311,"end":3934.958,"text":"流用他必須要做一個說明甚至經過立法院同意這個好像也沒有什麼太大的問題因為像過去愛國者飛彈其實他曾經在採購的過程當中他有剩餘的錢結果甚至連國防部長官都不知道的情況之下空軍就直接把那個錢花掉了這是一個非常嚴重的問題所以如果說你編這麼大筆的預算然後在要流用之前"},{"start":3954.19,"end":3960.194,"text":"我覺得還是應該要審慎的一個交代所以經立法院同意我們覺得這個放在這裡應該也是合理的然後也不會影響到其他因為它也不是一般的預算我們過去國防預算其實會同意留用是因為它就是一個大水庫它有很多它品項非常的多而且國防預算跟一般其他部會的預算編列的方式不一樣它寫得非常清楚細項條目也比較清楚所以同意留用的原因是這樣"},{"start":3983.627,"end":3987.512,"text":"那你在這個部分如果是特別條例它是很明確的這個部分本席覺得應該可以支持民眾黨的這個提案的版本"},{"start":3995.444,"end":3998.406,"text":"我們也提到說特別條例其實是因應緊急的部分當時說要審這個條例的時候我們認為太過簡單而且並不清楚它的內容不是條例歸條例預算歸預算因為條例裡面很重要的精神它有金額這個金額是跟子孫借錢來的"},{"start":4016.616,"end":4019.718,"text":"而且這是創有史以來的新高所以當如果你不夠清楚的時候其實就沒有辦法去審條例我覺得這個也應該要把它理清楚這個不是這樣的旨在我們認為沒有什麼太大的問題那特別條例它如果是因應緊急的狀況就我們國民黨提出來的這個版本裡面當然"},{"start":4038.429,"end":4041.171,"text":"對於相關主管我們在很多的考量上面他基本上懲戒法跟監察法是具備這樣的條件可是我們看過去的現在執行的狀況有很多不管是對外的採購對內的採購都發生許多非常嚴重的嚴當的問題或者甚至裡面產生弊端這個部分其實我們希望可以主動可以去做這樣的一個因應"},{"start":4067.225,"end":4088.637,"text":"所以在這個部分應該是還可以做一些討論不過主管機關不能有權無責你既要花這麼多的錢然後你要主導很多很多的政策方向的時候低於50%是非常離譜的因為既然是緊急它就是我們迫切需要的如果我們連50%都達不到我們還口口聲聲說這只是賣方市場因為賣方市場不是藉口也不是理由"},{"start":4095.403,"end":4101.571,"text":"當他可以去追蹤或者可以去要求的時候我們強度不夠我們的那種強度如果可以跟要預算一樣"},{"start":4106.994,"end":4111.816,"text":"我覺得談判不會這麼差啦因為我們看到2023年的時候美國國會議員其實他們就有提案而且清楚的表達說對於台灣的軍售項目其實有延宕的部分要趕快攻擊那時候我們國內有很多大家也都積極的去附和可是到現在那時候說的就是魚叉飛彈"},{"start":4131.986,"end":4148.118,"text":"可是到現在我們2026年了我們到現在還沒有拿到2023年他們已經提案了2026年我們還沒有拿到而且我們的牌序還在沙烏地阿拉伯的後面所以就這個部分我們還是希望"},{"start":4148.618,"end":4164.863,"text":"必須要有一些進度的一個控管如果我們都不能掌控那我們為什麼要編特別預算那你如果像這樣子什麼都可以然後什麼都是賣方市場那你就放在公務預算啊因為反正看起來也不緊急因為你通通交不出來的時候我們一點辦法都沒有沒有辦法對國人交代這個也不能這樣花錢這是我們要提出來的一個考量 謝謝"},{"start":4173.459,"end":4175.661,"text":"好 謝謝馬文聰委員 現在我們請賴世保好 謝謝主席 各位先進這一條大家都知道 特別預算就是有緊急的嘛 才變特別預算 否則變年度預算就好了嘛那你又拼命要錢 錢給了東西不來"},{"start":4192.452,"end":4199.598,"text":"然後你再怎麼用的話 像F16到現在一台也沒有已經幾年了 一年兩年這樣一直拖再怎麼用的話 即便沒有6000億也有3000億 加一加也有3000億3000億給了錢 我等一下是不是 這個部長要不要來補充就是我們那個2400億是不是全部交了"},{"start":4217.318,"end":4222.863,"text":"沒有就講一下嘛 你交了多少嘛審計部也去函要求糾正說沒有交貨 停止再交錢這點我不知道國安部有沒有做到我所知道審計部以及我去文要求國安部東西如果還沒有來 不可以繼續給錢這點要做到嘛 這是第一點我強調 所以"},{"start":4241.345,"end":4247.188,"text":"沒有錯 不要濫殺無辜我們也知道是賣方市場買美國武器是何等難的事情可是問題既然要買了他當然要賣了要交貨啊 不能這樣拖啊那你說這個雙手一攤就沒辦法我覺得對於相關的長官一定的層級有一定的壓力我覺得是需要的否則的話就一直給錢一直給錢人家感覺就一直送錢東西有沒有來沒關係"},{"start":4271.767,"end":4278.872,"text":"這樣更好 對國人不能交代吧 這第一點第二點 我要來強調一下昨天我聽到有個亮點其實我們這裡 老實講 大家講話不需要針鋒相對大家彼此闡述有交集的 不會沒有交集昨天我聽到王定宇講了一句話我就 啊 都一數了他說能不能3800億加N改成1.25兆減N那我就講"},{"start":4302.967,"end":4303.869,"text":"這是你講 你昨天講的"},{"start":4308.936,"end":4327.544,"text":"啊我現在就正式給你 echo其實是一樣的你一點澳大減掉國內的部分三千億就剩九千億啊那我們的三千八百億加如果現在美國很快的正式announce要賣我們一百五十億美金的武器啊就八千多億啦啊你趕快歷史吧啊不是不是我們已經有了三千八加N啊加N啊"},{"start":4338.468,"end":4339.489,"text":"你們如果把國內的委制部門全部剪掉那就剩9千億"},{"start":4353.404,"end":4360.929,"text":"但是我那個N出來是要美國同意喔要美國正式同意說我要賣150億美金那我們就交通局喔我個人就贊成交通局要判3800加N這個N是什麼意思我是就3800的不對嘛我們是3800你要不要跟賴委員對話一下先稍等一下稍等一下稍等一下所以我的意思是說有對話基礎大家可以有共識這樣一來就接近了啦"},{"start":4376.638,"end":4380.74,"text":"那你說剩三千你跟我一天一毛錢都不能少其實要放公共預算嘛我們國內要捍衛台灣的安全沒有人反對啦不需要戴帽子啦那這個錢放哪裡放哪裡的問題而已這是我的第二點第三點我要強調的是財政部還是有必要跟外面說清楚你一直講財源是稅基剩餘plus"},{"start":4405.223,"end":4407.966,"text":"財政部常常在嘛 能夠持長要說一下 PLUS 舉債啊隨機剩你剩多少 幾乎沒有啊 對不對"},{"start":4415.122,"end":4425.11,"text":"你要不要講一下跟委員報告那目前的稅金剩餘的確是已經都已經移用完畢但是我要強調一點就是說我們的經濟狀況很好所以我們稅收我們未來稅收是不會這個今年像今年的今年的競選率已經調高7.71嘛at this moment在這個時刻在這個時刻我們的稅金剩餘是零啦"},{"start":4442.703,"end":4446.244,"text":"所以每一個台灣的人 不管大小 大人小孩 通通要取債五萬塊按照你一天二五兆的話就是五萬塊了 就是這樣了 這個時候要先清楚了"},{"start":4460.305,"end":4486.541,"text":"我先補充一下我們目前的負債比例FLAB115年度是26.4%那等於是說還有14.2%的舉債的空間等於有3.7兆也就是說目前的財政狀況其實還是非常的穩健這是第一點第二個我們特別預算不會是依次編組"},{"start":4487.822,"end":4515.95,"text":"不是一年編組我們是會分年編的所以基本上我目前的呃產生狀況我是覺得是可以負擔的以上好呃謝謝那王定永要不要回應一下好呃得到前輩賴世保委員他跟徐曉鑫委員肯定本席的提案我受寵若驚在這個moment非常的感動那我先講幾個部分第一個"},{"start":4517.691,"end":4524.068,"text":"我贊成延宕要有懲處機制但是延宕的原因要清楚"},{"start":4526.514,"end":4550.366,"text":"我很尊敬陳永康委員如果今天因為陳永康委員延宕然後來處罰我這個送到監察院也不會成立嘛所以原因要清楚所以呢如果延宕超過50%前提是可歸因為台灣行政部門的責任因為台灣不只有行政部門還有立法部門可歸因為台灣行政部門的責任送"},{"start":4552.045,"end":4570.206,"text":"那如果國民黨要把可歸因歸因為美國方面的因素也要追究責任歡迎你們提案這一點就擺明了處理台灣的行政部門然後連美國提都不敢提一起提那要去追究嗎符不符合現在的現實"},{"start":4571.843,"end":4600.159,"text":"所謂的買方市場不是說是賣方比較大不是就是我們台灣在籌措軍事裝備那個困難度我相信國防部各將領軍官都經歷過甚至於跑歐洲也會遇到來自於特定國家的壓力都會遇到所以今天我們如果要把條文裡面寫到嚴當究責那就把嚴當究責的因寫清楚究責的果才會目標明確否則這個空炮彈"},{"start":4601.212,"end":4622.492,"text":"今天因為 比方說MAC-48因為美國海軍部的因素延宕交貨陳委員應該知道嘛我去究責台灣的海軍幹嘛你送的也不會成立啊就好像我們先進高校機是引擎因為COVID-19延後我去懲處國防部或漢祥"},{"start":4625.936,"end":4653.449,"text":"那個懲處其實是沒有因果關係沒有邏輯的所以這一個懲處要寫我建議把它寫完整一點你就寫可歸因為台灣行政部門之責任延宕超過50%移送那成功的機率還比較大其他的我建議也不用寫因為寫沒有用我不認為現場有國民黨委員要追究美方責任整場聽下來應該不會啦要的話寫我個人也沒什麼特別意見這第一個第二個"},{"start":4654.449,"end":4676.912,"text":"我聽不太懂為什麼公務預算跟特別預算就好像談到機密你這個機密不能的話就移到公務預算談到同計劃內子計劃A跟子計劃B現金的流用這個要流用你就移到公務預算公務預算跟特別預算適用的法律是一樣的它是一樣的"},{"start":4678.281,"end":4706.815,"text":"所以我就說我贊成在某些特定的項目如果要綁定可以談但是預算法容許允許留用那個談刑是給行政部門應急的時候這個我們不要把它寫死在法條裡面第三那個賴思寶委員可能沒有來參加我們專報啦我們有關對沒採購延宕交貨的有辦了一個專報裡面講得很清楚第一個沒有那個付錢付六千億付兩千多億在那邊等他 沒有"},{"start":4707.495,"end":4728.784,"text":"台灣軍事採購有點像蓋房子蓋到地基付地基的錢蓋到哪個節點付哪個節點的錢不會付錢在那邊等貨你延宕我錢就不出去是在我們的專款的專戶裡面那目前所有對美採購的幾乎都如期如質有的超前三項AGM-154CMk48重型魚雷還有F16V這三項的延宕那這三項的延宕"},{"start":4733.826,"end":4756.562,"text":"我們作為買方也不斷的追究美方的責任也要求趕上以F16V他們現在是兩班制在南卡那邊要趕工一天二十小時 趕工架上 組裝線上我們買六十六架 組裝線上大概有五十五架是要供應給我們的那最近一架在廠區飛測已經完成接下來就是軍種因為那是軍購美國軍種驗測完就會交給我們所以延盪"},{"start":4761.105,"end":4772.098,"text":"有要追究錢不能當冤大頭我贊成但是事實上在因為俄烏戰爭全球供應鏈問題因為COVID-19有些延宕不是只對我們連對美軍他都延宕所以這個部分專報要討論我補充跟賴委員做一個報告最後"},{"start":4780.005,"end":4803.725,"text":"謝謝賴委員肯定我昨天提了1.25兆減N的概念我把它講完整1.25兆減N比較符合你們國民黨提的3800億加N因為你們的提案你自己去看你們的提案在我印象是第五條還是第六條你們是沒有加N的你就只有3800億你們寫在第八條裡面說如果美國發價書再來另提特別預算第六條嘛就第六條跟第八條"},{"start":4805.278,"end":4814.395,"text":"就另提特別條例所以簡單來講你們版本也就為什麼以前我們的同事徐育仁委員是國民黨籍的在美國說這個不行因為你只有3800億"},{"start":4816.243,"end":4845.302,"text":"美國再準變成另外還在弄一個特別條例那這個特別條例的包括跨年度的部分它就失去它的意義所以用1.25兆減N也就是你可以設定對外採購我建議不要寫對美因為我們機密專報有說過它不是只有美方對外採購你可以設定一個條件那個條件沒有滿足我不准你編我不跟你用這叫減N那是不是就符合國民黨的要求但是這還要加上用途你不能只綁定對外採購"},{"start":4846.122,"end":4870.51,"text":"我們的台美合作的供應鏈在台的飛鴻供應鏈以及對台灣內部採購的彈藥載台以及台灣盾所相關的這個用途不要設限只有採購因為這不是一個這個特別預算不是只有對外採購而已所以1.25兆減N把這個對外採購的條件可以綁嚴格一點沒有達到那個標準我不要讓你贏我也不要讓你BAN"},{"start":4870.99,"end":4900.223,"text":"那這樣用1.25兆減恩又即可滿足國民黨是說美國準的我都賣啊你們現在講美國準的我都賣嘛3800億可是下禮拜又準我要另外提一個特別條例我們還要在這裡六七條條文部三綱這個不好啦你比我還有經驗因為賴委員是資深財政委員所以我剛才講的1.25兆減恩符合國民黨的想法跟精神也達到我們國會監督的目的然後我們在用途不管AI 先進科技用途不要把他綁死"},{"start":4900.723,"end":4925.111,"text":"那可監督然後呢在每一筆預算還是要送進委員會審查可刪減動這樣子的話我們是不是可以在特別條例上往前邁進一步這是我昨天完整報告的那我們希望在這個點上今天也許不能有共識到黨團協商的時候能夠往這邊邁進這個是國家需要不是政黨需要啦我們大家一起達成共識可能是蠻重要一件事情謝謝"},{"start":4925.947,"end":4948.394,"text":"好謝謝那呃我們等一下依次是陳永康委員羅美玲委員羅美玲不用啊好那陳永康委員馬文君委員牛許廷委員之後再賴世保委員好謝謝主席呃各位在場的同仁我這邊呢用一個客觀的角度來提出幾個建議呃並不針對哪一個政黨包括我們自己的在野黨第一個"},{"start":4949.619,"end":4971.65,"text":"美国的军售案FMS根据美国战争部底下安和局公布的法规强调军售案是基于美国的国家安全战略以及它的国防战略对有盟国家基于区域安全的考量提供武器服务的供售"},{"start":4972.714,"end":4997.831,"text":"也就是说军售案我们是使用端跟美国签约是对政府我们使用的是固定价款所以美金汇率涨跌我们要内部调整吸收但是美国政府跟美国的厂商签的约它是成本计价保证美国的国防厂商有多少百分比的利率所以这中间已经有了一个差别"},{"start":4998.427,"end":5025.381,"text":"第二个军售采购国的国家透过美国的专案管理办公室做专案管理但是采购国家不得与美国的厂商有直接的接触这是军售专案管理因此在罚则上面如果是因为美军内部的因素我们要透过我们的驻美采购团我们有在地的律师也有国内派的"},{"start":5026.631,"end":5050.379,"text":"法治官在驻美团跟美方做直接的沟通如果把这个责任用来追究我们国内军总的负责长官这个比较不妥是不客观我这边特别要把这个抬出来是给三个党的同仁大家都关心国防安全可是军售的这个条例请各位看美国战争部"},{"start":5051.039,"end":5065.145,"text":"安和局的官方网站他有所有列举军售的条例是这细则所以这个请大家做参考谢谢陈永康委员接下来我们请马文君委员"},{"start":5066.14,"end":5073.464,"text":"謝謝主席針對剛剛很多委員大家在探討的這個部分因為如果說像很多表達的方向我們的不確定因素這麼高那對美方其實我們是有專案辦公室應該怎麼樣去追究相關的責任這個我們後續可能今天也沒有一個共識"},{"start":5091.494,"end":5110.485,"text":"你要追究到一些比較基層的或相關的一些我們的一些相關的主管其實這個有些事實上他可能有困難可是他必須要有人負責所以在這個部分執行的機關首長我覺得其實是應該可以去討論的"},{"start":5113.306,"end":5120.268,"text":"可是我們在這個金額上面大家都一直講到說這是賣方市場那既然是賣方市場這是國際現實的情況之下我們更應該支持的就是3800億加N因為這是至少確保目前因為美國即使出售它都還可以做調整或改變或者甚至還是不給"},{"start":5136.232,"end":5142.335,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話我們又沒有能力去跟他要求然後對他也沒有任何的罰則我們應該要考量因為之前說他們沒有辦法交來魚雷是我們的潛艦很重要的一個武器如果沒有魚雷就跟沒有拳頭一樣"},{"start":5155.923,"end":5173.531,"text":"所以像这样子的还有我们的战机也是可是我们没有办法的时候考量的理由是说因为COVID-19因为俄乌战争那现在中东又陷入美以异战争现在也不知道它什么时候会结束而且我们这一次采购很多都是非但丹药"},{"start":5174.611,"end":5179.392,"text":"飛彈彈藥從這一次美伊伊戰爭我們已經看得出來它已經缺了美國兩天就打掉一年的產量所以像這樣子的客觀因素它已經會影響它可能會影響我們這些飛彈還有我們彈藥的採購那我們還一次放很多你就不可能把錢用在別的地方你買戰機2500億它還沒有交來你那2500億不可能用在別的地方你今天一兆2500億編下去如果它的彈藥沒來它的飛彈"},{"start":5204.54,"end":5211.906,"text":"沒有辦法提供給我們的時候你也拿它沒辦法然後一兆兩千五百億就框在那裡你也不能用剛剛說我們的財政狀況還不錯還可以負擔可是八年的時間大家要怎麼想過去也說我們的電力沒有問題啊還不是馬上轉彎就一個遠方的一個戰爭也不是立即發生在我們這裡的所以我們希望我們的考量是一個長遠性的"},{"start":5232.594,"end":5252.753,"text":"如果有該修正的我們認為你說不當的究責或者怎麼樣這個都可以討論可是當現實的因素存在在這裡的時候我們又說我們要編很多然後要很快的編可是當你拿不到的時候又一點辦法都沒有那你把錢全部都框在那裡我們其他的需求萬一發生什麼樣緊急狀況的時候你的錢要哪裡來所以這一個部分"},{"start":5256.937,"end":5272.524,"text":"外部的因素都影響到我們所有武器裝備的取得那現在整個國際局勢是更動盪不安現在對我們也會造成直接的影響這個部分大家也應該要一併的去考量好 謝謝好 謝謝馬文聚委員接下來請林徐廷委員"},{"start":5273.408,"end":5288.505,"text":"謝謝主席這我想今天討論或昨天討論的核心概念都一樣第一個就是到底我這分歧的部分我就不講了但關鍵是至少我覺得朝野比較容易有共識的地方是大家理性的去討論出一整套完整的監督機制"},{"start":5289.426,"end":5317.837,"text":"這我剛剛聽主席總署講啦講說包含流用等等的規定其實你背後講的邏輯是一般總預算就有流用的規定理論上特別條例跟特別預算會比總預算更寬鬆嘛所以你才會覺得這樣寫很奇怪嘛可是問題是這樣嘛就今天大家對於這麼高額的支出然後要舉債等等開始越來越在意的時候這個難道在野黨不應該有點角色嗎所以我才講嘛就是說這整個條例也好或者未來預算的過程中他必須要非常清楚明白有一個強而有力的監督過程"},{"start":5319.037,"end":5337.071,"text":"這也是為什麼在野黨去提了不管是有關於流用的一些限制中間的一些專案報告甚至是一些比較具體的考核懲處機制有一些也許啊這個措辭很嚴厲顯得很苛刻這我覺得都可以保留討論的空間但它不能沒有這個我覺得非常關鍵的是它不能沒有嘛"},{"start":5337.677,"end":5358.683,"text":"因為最近這一段時間很常出現特別預算然後如果因為特別預算大家都要行方便那其實就是變相的削弱了監督的機制那麼國防知識抵達剛剛也講這個國防的採購沒有辦法如期到貨很多時候是不可歸因於本國政府的行政責任這本席完全理解但是"},{"start":5360.526,"end":5377.202,"text":"這一段時間大家對於交貨集成的高度關注我認為反而是有助於這個不管是國防部對外去爭取去談判你有一個我國內很擔心啊有一個這樣的籌碼有一個這樣的利基去談嘛他才能夠真正去促進交貨換言之我們對於這些東西的把關越嚴格"},{"start":5378.263,"end":5395.315,"text":"你在外面上去達成目標的機會就越高所以我來講這一次的邏輯很多人講特別條例原則上我們應該先寬你後面可以省預算可以延可是我用我自己初見的經驗不管是我以前在議會或這幾年在立法院我們從在民意機關的角度通常都是先延後寬"},{"start":5396.676,"end":5413.511,"text":"先嚴格後面再協調然後找出一條出路所以通常都是先嚴後寬我沒有聽過幾個案例是先很寬後面可以很嚴格的啦一開始很寬的話後面只會更寬嘛這就是為什麼在野黨之間比如說3800加N我一定是從嚴然後往上有調整的空間而不是我一開始就從寬因為從寬後面只會更寬啦"},{"start":5415.433,"end":5436.256,"text":"所以我覺得根本的立場再講也沒有太多意思大家可以在協商的時候再討論沒有問題但我覺得其實從昨天下午到今天這些配套措施我還是一樣立場就行政機關我們也統整一下意見怎麼去彙整怎麼去中整讓他可以定期透明的追蹤資訊可以公開的去做揭露我講的是進度等等的部分或者出現問題"},{"start":5437.157,"end":5450.121,"text":"可以完整的跟社會大眾交代 也讓社會大眾有更清楚的了解這樣子處理完 大家後面再走相關流程才會比較順利 以上謝謝謝謝劉喜廷委員 我們最後一位發言的是賴世寶委員好 謝謝喔我還是希望部長 顧部長能夠公開回答一下到底我的F16V已經交了多少錢"},{"start":5462.822,"end":5467.367,"text":"已經交了多少錢到現在一台都沒來目前是一台都沒來"},{"start":5468.499,"end":5492.488,"text":"報告委員,張威視市長這邊跟您做個回應您的確提到省紀部的那一段其實我們在省紀部給我們函之前就已經跟美方啟動了只付的動作那已經付多少錢?所以在去年3月中我們就只付付到1491就停了就等於付1400多嗎?"},{"start":5494.449,"end":5500.901,"text":"就不再負冷是不是那今年大概今年講說可以交第一價全部可以交幾價了今年期待期望值好了十價有沒有"},{"start":5506.058,"end":5513.741,"text":"我們的希望是全交啊這不可能啊 顧部長說不可能啦已經跟我講難度很高啦報告委員 我們的評估是風險很高是喔我們並沒有講過說完全不可能你打臉顧部長耶沒有 部長沒有講說完全不可能顧部長說難度很高喔對 難度很高他不是風險 他講難度 背起來了對他講難度很高"},{"start":5534.039,"end":5538.72,"text":"不可能啦 我說我10台就好好 第一點第二點我要強調齁這個 很多民進黨的先進都喜歡講說啊 你不在我們家啦 你都不知道中共啊抱歉 我常常來這裡質詢啦這個 家警都會知道啦 因為立委做這麼久還不知道你假如說我們不要一天不要美國那就對美其友好國家就解決啦就解決啦對美其友好國家才夠"},{"start":5563.139,"end":5579.365,"text":"對外採購我要強調對美國嘛因為這個今天坐下來審大家都知道美國佔一個很重要的因素嘛美國佔很重要的因素嘛 大家都知道我要強調對美其友好國家對不對 其友好國家這樣就可以了 沒有說沒有那麼嚴重啦這是第二個 我強調的第三點 各位整個畫面是什麼整個畫面就是"},{"start":5589.529,"end":5593.092,"text":"我問布置平喔 錢趕快來 錢趕快來 錢趕快來 東西咧 啊沒來沒到啊部長我也諮詢過 部長說這個都是美方的事情啊我們有沒有辦法追究 沒辦法追究 有沒有辦法追究 沒有啊 賣方市場 大家也知道"},{"start":5608.167,"end":5614.957,"text":"那種感覺那種畫面大家不舒服啦老百姓不舒服啦這樣做立委做假的喔拼命給錢啊那東西不來一點皮條都沒有我們目前的中共是給了錢東西不來我們一點皮條都沒有"},{"start":5625.29,"end":5630.213,"text":"目前來講就是這樣子其他都做文章其他都做文章而已都這樣歐陵水到哦 報告這個那個這個那個但是呢 簡單講就是到目前為止對美國的武器採購錢給得很快東西交得很慢甚至於不交延到很久我們一點批調都沒有啊 立法院就可以批調了難道不能夠通過立法院"},{"start":5652.697,"end":5661.244,"text":"部長啊 各位長官啊你們要珍惜立法院在野黨的力量啊 給你們力量啊我們這裡反對力量越大 你們講話聲音就越大可以跟美國講說 欸 我們這邊人在野黨你反對啊所以你比較快的 你不比較快的事情不好要這樣子啊 這個態度才拿出來啊這是第二個 我要強調第三點喔"},{"start":5677.827,"end":5682.451,"text":"我個人是贊成第六條和第八條合併起來那就有3800加N的味道在哪裡而且不要變成兩個法案變成一個法案裡面那跟你原來的就很接近了我來這裡是希望能夠解決問題啦大家找共識啦"},{"start":5705.78,"end":5712.082,"text":"你看這樣去嚇啦要不然的話你說他今天美國發價稅來100億美金我們就立個特別條例再50億美金又立一條這也沒通這也是很煩啦老實說我們是還是尊重那個盲軍委內外委會 外委會"},{"start":5729.167,"end":5737.829,"text":"我今天是聯席 我今天不是主審 我是聯席好 財政委員會 我財政委員會我今天有一票 我要表決一票喔各位 我表決一票喔 來要表決我一票喔 我一票喔所以 所以 我還是主張 我的主張我們黨團 我們黨中央都對外講3800加N我就放心這個3800加NN只要出現 就應該加上去"},{"start":5757.671,"end":5760.412,"text":"所以條文怎麼寫 不用1.25兆啦1.25兆你已經減N了 因為我看到你講N了 那個N就減3000啦賴委員 那其實還可以合相啦 但我們的邏輯一樣啦它整個的上限是1.25兆 你們要的條件是 我看到發家書對外採購我才要準嘛 所以條文要這樣寫才完整你們的寫法兩條合併 如果還是寫3800億"},{"start":5785.265,"end":5809.841,"text":"然後呢 後續有準的另提特別條例 那就沒辦法了你知道意思嗎 那就變成另外用一個每一筆預算一筆法律 這個很奇怪的這每一個人的想法 每一個委員的想法 我的主張是後面那個不要的就放在這裡 但是呢也不能框得太大啦 你就把1.25減掉三千多的國內部分 就是九千 八九千差不多減三千多"},{"start":5819.036,"end":5821.317,"text":"因為我們一直在談發架書這個事情我們現在已經遇到發架書危機了"},{"start":5839.336,"end":5861.609,"text":"我們現在回到執行面的問題因為你講發架書哪到才做對我們來講真的很難做因為我昨天晚上已經聯絡了國防安和局局長他的態度是很難給我們這樣子的彈性"},{"start":5863.8,"end":5893.049,"text":"那當我們還在跟他爭取我們還有四天的時間去爭取那我們知道軍售程序裡面知會國會完的案子幾乎就是已經定案了如果說那個知會國會完那以這個做界線或許還有一點點彈性但如果每件事情都是發架出來像海馬斯這個案子如果說"},{"start":5894.858,"end":5908.461,"text":"他不同意我們首席館支付的時間延後那我們預約的時間就會錯過這一批那就會到年底去這是我們目前執行上面遇到的問題"},{"start":5910.085,"end":5939.286,"text":"我想就這個部分我再補充一下因為我們過去我想在外交官委員會有長期擔任的如果就這個預算案要細審的話應該其實是在這個我們從這個計畫提出來然後經過行政院核定送案子進來然後都是在如果這個時候已經進行智慧國會了就列入公開還沒有智慧國會之前就列入機密"},{"start":5939.793,"end":5966.105,"text":"那一旦他進行的智慧國會就轉為公開所以大家可以看得出來在這一段這個我們提出預算的這個時候呢反而是你們可以很仔細的來進行審議那你們現在是變成說我拿到發價書我就會同意那等於是你完全前面的那一個那個預算案你完全沒有在審議啊就是根本你來不及審議你了解我的意思嗎就是說"},{"start":5966.909,"end":5974.752,"text":"你們現在會講說發價書來我就那發價書一來以後接下來馬上就要涉及到簽署馬上就涉及到首期款要支付"},{"start":5975.54,"end":6002.323,"text":"然後拉就會很趕一直在趕對不對趕授權簽署趕這個預算案趕快通過等等就會這樣那這個緩和喪失了我們計劃預算的一個概念我們計劃預算的概念是說我們先提一個前面不是那個國民黨的第三條嗎講說我們要依這個要試計劃性質救急防衛目標戰力需求裝備規格等等等等講了一大堆然後就要我們要提出相關的計劃"},{"start":6003.044,"end":6027.667,"text":"那這個預算案的內容就是我們都是根據這些然後要提出到大院來進行審議現在大院反而是說前面我都你都不用送了那你現在只要發加數一來我馬上給你通過那我覺得如果大院的立場是說覺得這種審查預算的案本身不需要那麼的嚴謹"},{"start":6029.349,"end":6050.101,"text":"而只要看到發價數,只要看到發價數,那就可以通過我覺得反而是,反而是其實是對我來講反而是要,如果我是立法院,我會覺得反而是弱化了立法院監督的那一塊啊對,反而不是在強化監督這一塊,這一點那你要不要點,等一下,那你要不要點拿到國會通過還是怎麼樣"},{"start":6053.851,"end":6080.147,"text":"可以是不是拉到國會通過你講清楚嘛你希望怎麼樣國會通過國會通過就我們國防部的立場我們過去以來我想大家在外交網絡都很清楚我們用這個計畫預算的精神來講我剛剛已經講過我們的政堂就是應該要先提計畫行政院核定我們送預算案進來那個時候還不一定會到達智慧國會的程序"},{"start":6081.289,"end":6090.399,"text":"對不對 所以我只是在解釋說明啦最後大院要怎麼樣做決議這件事我沒有這麼明顯你總是要起個頭啊你有個壓制在那裡殺你啊部長 我插個話啦"},{"start":6092.905,"end":6122.206,"text":"賴委員這樣對話很好我希望是不同黨團來思考這個問題第一個現實面你用發價書來才開始處理預算這個部分還馬是現在就剩四天要付頭期款要不然不能簽約不能簽約年底有沒有還是就沒有了因為大家在唱嘛那這影響我們房務嘛我可以接受賴委員這個態度說不然你說什麼時間是智慧國會那邊開始起算你作業來不來得及那行政部門當然也不能全部都這麼方便啦"},{"start":6122.866,"end":6142.628,"text":"要有一個監督我贊成但監督要合理不能因為監督導致我們重要軍事裝備籌貨的困難所以剛才顧部長所講的我們是計劃性採購我們從威脅分析完作戰需求作虛分析完然後再來細分細分之後的作業再來是編列預算"},{"start":6143.669,"end":6162.544,"text":"像我們AGM那個不能講某一個飛彈我們也編在那邊但是美方一直沒有同意那預算就會往後展演就我計畫上我需要我要買但是賣方呢今年不買或者以前我們要買F16CD型20年美國就一直沒有還付你"},{"start":6163.445,"end":6179.34,"text":"那我們不會放棄我們的需求所以最好的方式是計劃提出到細分細分會議作業做完了 編列預算他得到預算之後去努力得到這個部分那什麼時候可以花錢不好意思你要得到智慧國會發酵書整個作業才可以開始不然你錢放在這裡也不行啦"},{"start":6183.303,"end":6200.941,"text":"那如果我們要找到一個折衷版本我真的建議發架書不是定價書發架書來要簽約那真的不會有那個籌款簽不下去那個勿是會誤的很大那往前挪到什麼部分是計畫作業就開始還是要到智慧國會我們可以討論我認為可以討論但綁在發架書那一塊會讓我們自己無法作業"},{"start":6205.345,"end":6210.349,"text":"計劃那個叫做五輪隧道啦 計劃隨便畫一畫就好了不是這樣啦 計劃親在委員會都出來那個不通啦 這個我們是對美採購武器的啊一定是美方有動作我們才做 過去都這樣子啊這一次我們很多意見是因為 幾乎都是啦過去都是F16V2400E就這個例子啊美國同意了 我們才編特別預算的啦"},{"start":6236.646,"end":6237.807,"text":"馬文君委員謝謝針對剛剛講的比如說我們現在因為我們現在還要考量的就是我們編了那麼高額的預算剛剛一直在講發價數我們過去我們前一陣子我們大概也舉一個例子我們的標槍飛彈"},{"start":6263.706,"end":6266.309,"text":"我們原來採購的項目大概一百多億可是後來變成六百多億其實它是用擴大增購的部分其實它就是加上去了對 次增飛彈不好意思次增飛彈我們就是用這樣子的一個方式所以不是所有的都要用"},{"start":6281.769,"end":6292.375,"text":"特別預算因為我們過去已經買了很多海馬仕現在也正在採購當中也正在交貨當中它並沒有結束所以當你是增購或者其他的模式我們需要增量的時候其實它有很多的手段方式所以不是絕對的一定是在這一次而且這四天其實我們覺得是不可思議因為過去剛剛你們不是講到留用了嗎"},{"start":6308.464,"end":6314.688,"text":"你有很多的預算的那個你們為什麼那時候那你現在居然就用不上了所以這個部分如果拿這個第一期款來講我是覺得這個比較說不通因為如果連這樣美方其實對我們的一個交貨的期程延宕這麼多的項目那這一個部分我們卻沒有辦法去談因為美方很清楚因為他們很多人在這裡他們都有在關注我們這一個"},{"start":6338.684,"end":6343.987,"text":"案子要怎麼通過所以他不會不知道現在目前進行的狀況就這個部分國防部有充分的條件可以去談因為美方如果真的要增強我們台海的一個防衛能力我們在這個進行的過程當中不是決心的問題我們過去每次都要預算都說要展現決心給大家看可是我們看到的是我們的武器還沒有來"},{"start":6364.677,"end":6369.879,"text":"當打真的打的時候我們就是沒有東西那不是錢的問題所以就這個部分我們還是如果連這個部分付款都沒有能力我們很難相信說你後續你可以怎麼樣去控管其他的武器裝備的一個來源這個部分可能我們奉勸國防部不要把這個理由拿出來檯面上講謝謝好 謝謝馬文君委員官部要補充說明嗎"},{"start":6402.486,"end":6417.549,"text":"各位,因為這是新增案,我們今天不是舊的案子,所以我們這個錢的部分也不可能由我們國防部其他的錢直接移過來用應該這樣講,這是一個還沒有經立法院審議通過的案子"},{"start":6426.383,"end":6449.549,"text":"所以他不會有預算所以我也不可能以其他的錢去支給一個就沒有經過同意授權的情況下我也不可能去拿錢去給一個還沒有核定的案子這是我們執行上面大概有我們的困難的地方那另外我在這邊要補充另外一件事情是延宕的這個問題"},{"start":6452.304,"end":6481.473,"text":"延宕的問題很大的一部分他並不是產製的問題是預約的問題因為美方他不會我們立刻跟他簽了發價書之後他就立刻去預約這是我們面對的現實狀況那所謂核定進度的核定計畫的部分是我們原本的預期那後面是一定會隨著預約完成之後再做第一次修訂否則他會跟原本核定的那個進度完全背離"},{"start":6482.779,"end":6501.849,"text":"列銷這個案子它原定的期程只有兩年但是它到了第一年快底的時候才完成預約所以如果說以50%的進度來看它從起跑就已經落後了預約會影響到我們全部AGM-1547四針飛彈我們剛剛提到的魚雷"},{"start":6504.295,"end":6526.867,"text":"他的問題都出在預約是真非但預約的時間延後了五年我們強制美方解散他的專案團隊六次我們並不是沒有做只是說他沒有足夠的量去預約我們也不可能強迫他美國政府是不可能強迫廠商去一定吃下某一個單子當廠商不願意承接的時候"},{"start":6528.442,"end":6551.54,"text":"美國政府也沒有辦法去逼那個廠商去承接希望各位能夠了解說其實軍售案的處理的過程當中它有很多技術細節是必須要顧慮的它沒有辦法像我們在這個地方看到直接去簽的發價書它就走了 並不是這個希望各位能夠了解我們在軍售上面的確是有一些寄存的系統性之外"},{"start":6558.004,"end":6583.077,"text":"我再回到第六條我想這邊有提到的一些監督的機制我們是都可以來接受包括就是說專案列管考核這是國民黨條的第一項然後將執行建築局績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告因為我們本來是每年本來就是每年要向立法院提出報告如果說大家覺得每年還不夠那要每會期我想我們"},{"start":6584.085,"end":6606.438,"text":"因為本來就是每年要來做盤環包這沒有在迴避監督的問題嘛那再來就是說這個條例施行屆滿之時期的次年的五月底前主管機關就叫起實施的審教做成總結包包送兵送令我想我們也可以接受所以我們沒有要任何所以我們為什麼說審計部依法辦理審計那在審計的這個過程當中不但是審計機關一直會來盯著我們"},{"start":6612.864,"end":6631.864,"text":"那如果要接受大院的這個監督我們都可以來隨時做這個報告但是也有一些要請各位能夠就是一定要能夠體諒就是說確實我們有一些承辦的人員跟相關的這些不管是主管或什麼那我不希望他們因為這樣子而承受"},{"start":6633.005,"end":6655.204,"text":"這樣子的一個莫名的壓力這也是希望大家能夠能夠能夠能夠理解並接受那另外公和的部分我也稍微講一下因為公和就如同剛剛陳永康委員因為在經過的部分他變成是外加所以他通常會增加到百分之二十以上也就是完美要多付金額但他這些關鍵的技術要輸出要經過美方的同意"},{"start":6655.629,"end":6677.878,"text":"而過去的經驗都告訴我們美方沒有將這些關鍵技術同意移轉出來所以公和的點數會相關用於並非該跟該案件絕對相關的國防關鍵技術的移轉所以在這一點上面要不要採納公和這一件事情從我在國安會任職以來到現在其實都持續的在檢討"},{"start":6678.798,"end":6705.455,"text":"我覺得在這一點上面也要讓大家能夠理解你是多付錢但不一定拿得到跟那個建案相關的國防的關鍵技術這個是現在公和的問題這一點還請大家能夠理解好 謝謝部長的說明那那有辦法把部長的建議的南韓修正還是就大家還是沒有共識嗎沒有共識好"},{"start":6711.075,"end":6732.196,"text":"都沒有共識嗎那這一次各位同仁我們可不可以不吃多點薑有一條有共識第二條那個沒有共識我也無所謂那主管機關那有啥有一條有共識我覺得我們談的氛圍都還不錯是不是這一條可以有共識"},{"start":6734.405,"end":6748.18,"text":"行政院版加上一些剛才部長表達可以監督的機制部分我們把它放進去然後我們讓這一條有共識至少黨團協商的時候很多重要事情要討論這一條不要再討論了一條有共識我們國防外交委員會對社會大眾來看"},{"start":6749.321,"end":6776.489,"text":"坦白講我們是 不管黨派 我們是同樣一個委員會的同仁弄那麼多天連一條共識都沒有 不好啦是不是這條能夠有共識 馬委員或者是王委員這邊就是行政院版加上剛才部長說可以接受這件事有沒有可能來修正一下 然後那有提出這一條有共識就不用再寫上了啦 王委員跟馬委員兩位黨團的好不好 我們休息五分鐘 那來討論一下"},{"start":6782.396,"end":6785.817,"text":"今天是保留啦 6到8合併 但是你們先慢慢寫商文字啦"},{"start":7094.315,"end":7120.123,"text":"好我們繼續開會那剛才各位委員有跟這個國防部交換意見那我們初步的共識是沒有共識所以我們就是還是先保留好那本條我們就保留接續審查國民黨黨團提案第八條有關第二階段特別條例的條文請看第29頁"},{"start":7123.468,"end":7124.636,"text":"先請 天安黨團 國民黨黨團說明"},{"start":7134.629,"end":7153.966,"text":"這個這個就是明確宣示嘛就是說如果有第二波的發架數嘛因為其實大家的爭點就是在這個地方嘛如果說這發架數早一點來或者是有明確的期程那當然空間就大了可是一時半刻這個要大家拿出這個明確的期程顯然也為難嘛所以在這邊我們的寫法就是如果有需要就馬上再提第二期嘛所以我講的是先嚴後寬嘛"},{"start":7155.267,"end":7171.739,"text":"就是第二次或者是第二次特別條例我覺得這是立法技術上的一些問題啦但是這個就是明確的宣示嘛不會讓人家覺得說我只有三千八人我不會有任何後續動作嘛這等於是我們政黨明確立場的表態也就是說如果有拿到發架書我們會立刻啟動而且要從速來做審查以上做一個表達 謝謝"},{"start":7172.637,"end":7187.949,"text":"好 謝謝 王定委好 牛委員我覺得我們可以有共識其實你們的想法是說對外採購的部分因為剛才我們有討論到發價書智慧國會發價書這流程達成我才要再給你這一筆那我才會建議說是不是寫1.25兆"},{"start":7191.132,"end":7210.288,"text":"那個是授權但是你有關對外採購的部分要帶什麼條件滿足後才可以編列進來就符合你們要求的否則按照你的你仔細看你的第八條你的第八條是還要再提特別條例還要完成特別條例後再根據特別條例授權再編預算"},{"start":7212.298,"end":7228.125,"text":"你這沒有加N你這就是3800億打死你還需要再提一個新的特別條例所以如果國民黨團堅持第八條那你對外就不要再講加N了你們就是3800億結束加N是在加一個新的特別條例"},{"start":7230.225,"end":7244.971,"text":"特別條例可以加無數個人但是現狀這個東西特別條例我們的防衛韌性的提升裡面它是一個8年期8年1.25兆你現在把它拆解開來變成全部都要重新每一筆預算都要一次的特別條例"},{"start":7246.618,"end":7274.142,"text":"如果這是國民黨態度就就講嘛就是你們也不要AI也不要國內產製也不要台美生產線而對美採購呢就是每一筆每一筆都要一個獨立的立法特別條例是要這樣子嗎好 謝謝王店友言我們還是希望是說就是兩階段一條例啦這樣子的話是不是會對我們推動整個軍購會更對好不好 分階段但是不要分兩個條例不然就感覺是"},{"start":7275.973,"end":7281.485,"text":"就兩個跳好不好那接下來我們請林儲林儲英文要是"},{"start":7282.608,"end":7282.788,"text":"好 許曉欣呢"},{"start":7308.82,"end":7332.474,"text":"謝謝喔,那我想大家的意見我們都聽到了,那也都非常的尊重喔那在這邊我講一個另外的部分,就是說呢因為我們齁,就是第一個,我也是這個要保留協商啦那再來就是說,除了剛才大家講到的這個部分之外喔我們這裡面有一個就是呢,它上面寫是說但已符合國軍台海作戰需求,到這邊沒有問題"},{"start":7333.414,"end":7353.446,"text":"那後面這一段的部分啊其實我們應該回歸到前面的第一條大家懂我意思嗎就是說我們第一條裡面寫的是美國政府及其授權體系之軍事裝備與相關服務採購所以如果說把這個第一條的這一個部分然後跟後續這個就是把它"},{"start":7353.866,"end":7362.716,"text":"因為這邊變成是說美國對台軍售程式及美國提出軍售發價書者違憲但我們這個第一條這邊寫的是美國政府及其授權體系之軍事裝備與相關服務採購我想把第一條的這個部分那跟後續的這個第八條"},{"start":7373.007,"end":7391.901,"text":"做一個這個嫁接這樣的話會讓這個條例上面那是比較清晰而且就不會有說前面是這樣後面是這樣的一個問題所以我們這個部分我們回去協商那我想在政黨協商的時候或許會有更進一步的這個內容那也希望說這樣子的一個討論是有助於整體我們在條例上面的幫助的謝謝"},{"start":7396.769,"end":7415.891,"text":"好 謝謝委員主要我們這邊的訴求就是說因為如果在你們的條例裡面想第二階段的特別要再提出第二階段的特別條例那對我們來講就是兩個條例那我們希望至少是一個條例那也希望說在野黨的委員們再回去協商的時候可以把我們的顧慮也把它放進去"},{"start":7416.992,"end":7440.645,"text":"那還有其他委員針對這一條要發言的嗎如果沒有的話我們就保留那請各位在黨的委員長會去協商的時候能夠考量我們行政院的意見好謝謝大家那我們最後一條接續審查行政院提案第七條民主黨黨團提案第八條國民黨黨團提案第九條有關施行期間的條文我們先請主管機關說明"},{"start":7444.592,"end":7462.283,"text":"我們提出八年期的預算已經要顧及到我們軍購商購跟偽製案的這些相關我們需要認為的一個期程那如果說這個期程"},{"start":7465.365,"end":7488.244,"text":"沒有辦法按照我們這樣子的一個期程來規劃的話會有未及執行的一個顧慮那我認為還是希望按照行政院院版執行的這個期間因為我們這個本來就是一個整體性系統性的一個規劃這個我想我們在這個報告裡面已經一再的說明"},{"start":7489.437,"end":7514.285,"text":"那麼現在要將這個期程縮短的話就不管是軍購案、商購案跟違資案來講都會讓我們要形成的這個整體戰力會嚴重的一個無法執行的一個自然然後也會有讓我們的要提升我們的戰力造成很大的一個缺口所以還請各位能夠支持"},{"start":7516.823,"end":7541.37,"text":"好謝謝部長那接下來我們請徐曉欣委員第九條第四發言我能夠理解就是在這個建案上面來說的話時程太短會對於我們整體採購所產生的困擾那所以說當然這一條呢我也是建議我們能夠保留協商好那在這個部分呢我覺得應該在國民黨的版本裡面的我們能夠未來再把"},{"start":7542.27,"end":7559.394,"text":"這個本條例及其特別預算施行期滿未執行部分必要使得經立法院同意延長之也就是民進黨團的這個版本的部分能夠加進來這樣子的話呢就可以讓這個整體而言雖然他寫說117年但是實際上他是能夠延長的那有這樣子一個空間最起碼來說的話對於建案本身的影響性我們盡量讓他能夠減少"},{"start":7569.176,"end":7592.063,"text":"那這方面我們來努力好那我這一條我也建議先保留協商謝謝好謝謝徐小新委員請部長回應對我稍微補充一下就是說如果我們回到你們這個國民黨團提的這個前面的那些已經同意的那些部分包括海馬仕等等那執行的教育的期程就不可能在"},{"start":7593.652,"end":7618.097,"text":"就不可能在你們的117年的12月31號以前交印完畢啊請市長說明包委員我們先我們先用前面那個29套因為是同類型的裝備也是海馬仕那個系統那"},{"start":7621.294,"end":7645.166,"text":"因為這一次當然數量比較多我們前面的執行期程就是從一開始訂約我要強調一點,訂約完成一直到交運第一批大概是五年左右的時間這是大家目前看到前面十一套那因為後面的十八套是後面再加上去的那它是在今年底"},{"start":7646.072,"end":7670.162,"text":"要交那18套所以後面那18套的時間比較短大概就4年多一點每一個都不一樣就是我們剛剛講他預約的那個時間不同那如果依德國的經驗因為他德國買了40幾套左右的那個時間保守估計我們樂觀估計的話大概是像這麼86套大概是6到7年的時間"},{"start":7677.99,"end":7689.833,"text":"貴郎都贏在你的這個裡面你都同意就是依照依照這個這個這個智慧國會的這個項目這個智慧國會的項目海馬是我們這一次就是82套啊"},{"start":7712.29,"end":7731.722,"text":"他有一個一次簽約然後有一個交運騎乘嘛我們先依序 抱歉那個牛委員是零除英委員之後再牛許廷委員"},{"start":7735.241,"end":7749.711,"text":"我想其實從剛剛討論到現在我當然認同就是在黨委員一直認為的需要所謂的強力的監督等等但是就像剛剛討論前面那個我先前進回到前面一下容許我講一下就是"},{"start":7751.252,"end":7770.148,"text":"一直在講說錢付了不來怎麼來錢我相信在場的包括國防部或者是部長到其他所有今天坐在這裡的將領沒有人希望是錢付了然後武器不來請問他們能圖什麼好處沒有他們最其實我相信在場最希望武器能夠一約準時抵達的一定是現在我們國防部跟我們所有國軍的將領們那麼當然"},{"start":7779.863,"end":7806.116,"text":"因為這個這筆錢是人民的納稅錢所以我們身為立法委員我們當然要監督那麼現在回到這個騎乘這一題是現在也是同樣的在他們提出了這一個特別預算的計劃的時候是必須要符合整個所謂的台灣之盾的作戰需求那麼這個需求裡面當然不一樣的包括"},{"start":7807.897,"end":7827.433,"text":"他們在美國這邊或者是其他願意允售給我們的國家他就是有不一樣的時間點這是為什麼他不是年度預算而是一個跨年度的特別預算我要強調是這樣那我們現在回到行政院版國民黨版跟民眾黨版國民黨版是縮減到2028年就是117年底"},{"start":7832.777,"end":7844.489,"text":"我想所有的大家現在回到今天這個時間點那就是今天完了下個禮拜就進入到4月了也就是說現在剩下來到2028年底只剩下"},{"start":7845.543,"end":7866.041,"text":"一兩年的時間兩年多的時間那這樣的時間點當中我們現在我再重新再講一次從昨天到現在我們在討論的是條例不是預算如果還要連這個條例過了三讀了預算送進來了會不會是已經到六月以後"},{"start":7866.681,"end":7875.35,"text":"那言下之意是我們到底給這個從下這個預算然後到製造期程你等於是要逼"},{"start":7877.013,"end":7893.166,"text":"這個美國難道是要光速嗎我相信現在他們願意給我們但是重新回到我們的大前提包括什麼叫做發架書發架書不等於合約書不等於製作書所以我要講的是如果這樣的話那民眾黨版在112年112年底這樣的一個"},{"start":7899.271,"end":7919.325,"text":"這個時間點但是呢他還是要經過立法院的同意就等於所有剛剛我們今天看到的這些順序還要再來一次所以我只是認為在這個時間點上面我們還是要給合理的這個特別預算所執行的這個時間點所以我還是認為就是應該要依這個行政院的版本所提出來的這個8年1.25兆"},{"start":7922.307,"end":7933.013,"text":"我要重新想就是8年1.25兆的这样的一个预算的时间期程让他在这些采购的这些不一样的项目的这些军购能够有机会到位"},{"start":7938.854,"end":7958.726,"text":"我們今天要請劉許廷委員謝謝主席所以我們今天討論特別條例討論軍購等等包含前面很多也許是過度聳動的報導因為常常都提到2027年中共就要犯台等等所以我們在討論國防的時候大家都有一些隨著時間的壓力我們當然希望每一次的軍購可以在最短的時間裡面最精準的被執行"},{"start":7959.546,"end":7982.294,"text":"這我想國防部也不會反對這樣的概念我們都期待這樣子當然它會有很多外界的變因跟可能的干擾所以我覺得今天我們在討論這個特別預算的施行期程到底要拉得多長的時候當然你也可以講在黨版本對國防部來講太嚴苛了太苛刻了希望有一點調整的空間這個我覺得方向上是OK的但前提是我們也希望非常清楚至少在現在拿到發價出的這幾項"},{"start":7983.854,"end":8006.838,"text":"他分別的交貨期程是什麼時候我覺得你有義務跟國人大眾做清楚的說明嘛也就是說從幾年開始交大概分幾期交完什麼時候建軍完成每一項每一項大概是什麼是不是可以提供一個比較完整的一個報告那我想這因為也這麼多前面要協商了這一條在今天要達成共識恐怕也不太可能那就趕快把這個資料交給在黨的黨團大家就依據這個東西來合理的調整這個條例的期限嘛這我想丟一個方法讓大家做參考以上謝謝"},{"start":8014.697,"end":8037.009,"text":"謝謝委員那我們接下來請黃仁委員我特別就是同意那個我們徐曉新委員就是建議保留的這個協商一個問題是在這裡特別預算本來就是一種階段性的一個方案短期特別措施的一個安排"},{"start":8037.569,"end":8059.483,"text":"政府现在把它当作是一个常态性的一个状况变成长期制度这个已经是被多方诟病这反映的是对政府的国家对财政与民主监督的一个态度所以例如前瞻基础的建设也不过是一次就定了八年"},{"start":8060.143,"end":8083.149,"text":"那是先定四年再延期四年而且是實際上是分期特別預算制度上是先做一個階段再重新的審議而不是一次定很長的年限那每一個階段都需要再審查例如海空戰力提升計劃採購特別條例"},{"start":8085.33,"end":8114.628,"text":"那就是已訂定五年新式戰機採購特別條例是訂定七年而且採購項目非常的明確這一次的特別條例是整個整體性的一個國防採購的框架如果一開始就設到一百二十二年實踐過場政策失去了一個彈性也弱化了國會的一個監督所以這個就是我我同意我們徐曉鑫建議這個保留協商好以上"},{"start":8115.848,"end":8133.901,"text":"好謝謝黃榮委員那那這條也是保留那我們現在進行保留部分的就是做形式上的跟大家確認一下保留部分的第二輪討論我們先從法案名稱開始那是不是就是正式確認一下是不是保留"},{"start":8136.055,"end":8161.145,"text":"保留好那法案名稱保留那接下來討論第一條有關立法目的條文那我們第一條當初我們是決定是也是保留暫且保留但是現在確認一下確定保留好確定保留送協商謝謝那第二條是照照行政院版本通過"},{"start":8163.004,"end":8182.356,"text":"那接下來繼續討論行政院國民黨黨團的國民黨黨團的第三條那是照案通過那接下來討論行政院提案第三條民眾黨黨團提案第三條國民黨黨團提案第四條有關名職定義的文件那"},{"start":8184.727,"end":8195.411,"text":"的條文我們當初是暫且保留那我們確認一下大家還是保留好確認保留好那接續討論行政院提案第四條民眾黨黨員提案第四條公共黨員提案第五條有關採購項目的條文那我們當初是"},{"start":8201.233,"end":8221.252,"text":"暫且保留我們現在確認是保留送學商好確認保留送學商那接下來討論行政院提案第五條國民黨黨團提案第五條國民黨黨團提案第六條關經費上限的條文那根據之前的討論我們是暫且保留現在是確認一下大家"},{"start":8222.173,"end":8251.436,"text":"也是保留送鞋商好保留送鞋商那接下来讨论民主党党团第六条关收支规划财务计划的条文那第六条的时候我们当初是暂且保留我们现在确认是保留送鞋商好确认保留送鞋商那行政院提案第六条民主党第七条国民党党提案第七条关预算执行及审计的条文那我们当初的讨论是暂且保留现在要确认一下大家的意见是保留送鞋商吗"},{"start":8252.318,"end":8275.392,"text":"好確定保留送協商那國民黨黨團提案第八條有關第二階段特別條例的條文那我們剛才是暫且保留想要確認一下是不是正式保留送協商好保留協商那接下來是行政院提案第七條民眾黨提案第八條國民黨黨團提案第九條關施行期間的條文那剛才是暫且保留我們現在確認是保留送協商嗎"},{"start":8276.63,"end":8281.536,"text":"好保留送協商現在處理兩件附帶條例請附帶決議現在處理兩件附帶決議請宣讀"},{"start":8285.816,"end":8291.581,"text":"附帶決議第一案為確保對美軍購交貨時程能符合我國建軍備戰計劃需要避免軍購延宕影響國家整體防衛能量或因延遲交付導致武器裝備已過時不敷需求一本條例之採購政府應與美方討論違約或遲延給付實質處理方式並向立法院報告提案人委員牛許廷"},{"start":8310.277,"end":8331.953,"text":"陳永康、林思敏、徐巧欣、陳玉珍、黃仁、賴士寶、馬文君、林德福、顏寬恆、羅明才、黃建斌、李燕秀等委員附帶決議第二案本條例吸引美國政府於2025年12月18日通知我國總額約111億美元約新台幣3500億元的軍售案練習美國國會可能通過的對台軍售案"},{"start":8338.317,"end":8358.699,"text":"待美方通知我國政府後主管機關應於之夕日起立即研擬強化國防及對美採購第二階段特別條例草案函請立法院審議本院應即召開朝野黨團協商列案排審重塑完成三堵程序提案人委員牛許廷"},{"start":8359.549,"end":8376.823,"text":"陳玉珍 李彥秀 馬文君 陳永康 徐曉新 林思敏 黃仁羅明才 徐宇珍 賴世寶 顏寬恆 林德福 黃建斌等委員宣布完畢好 謝謝現在處理這個負責決議第一案請問國防部有沒有意見我想是不是我們"},{"start":8384.662,"end":8404.172,"text":"因為剛剛其實崇禾康委員已經都講了,他這個所有的軍售的部分,通常都有對外規定那現在如果就關切的這些個案,我們是不是改成說政府應與美方討論個案執行狀況並向立法院報告然後下面也是寫說政府應與美方討論這個個案執行狀況並向立法院報告,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":8409.452,"end":8424.841,"text":"因為我們就是跟他要討論這個個案的執行狀況是不是請提供書面修正文字改一下 改成個案執行狀況討論個案執行狀況對 變成個案執行狀況"},{"start":8433.607,"end":8434.208,"text":"簡義是同仁"},{"start":8462.964,"end":8467.846,"text":"我們先印一下然後再請醫師同仁來宣讀修正的部分"},{"start":8507.353,"end":8511.677,"text":"好 我們請議事人員宣讀修正文字修正文字"},{"start":8515.114,"end":8525.443,"text":"倒數第二項政府應與美方討論違約或遲延給付實質處理方式並向立法院報告修正為政府應與美方討論個案執行狀況並向立法院報告說明第二項最後文字政府應與美方討論違約或遲延給付實質處理方式並向立法院報告修正為政府應與美方討論個案執行狀況並向立法院報告其餘同源提案文字"},{"start":8544.813,"end":8568.058,"text":"宣讀完畢好那請問大家有沒有意見沒有意見那我們就附帶決議的第一案就修正通過謝謝接下來討論附帶決議第二案請請呃要請宣讀宣讀過了嗎那請問國安部有沒有意見"},{"start":8569.946,"end":8591.882,"text":"我們講講 我們自己講主席 不好意思等一下 劉委員你們要對 我提案人說明一下嘛 好不好因為這第二案跟其實剛剛條文第八條是掛鉤的嘛所以因為它的處於方式可能會因為發架書等等來的是先來後來會有變化的所以本期建議這一條一起保留好 那我們我們協商一起處理 謝謝大家有沒有意見 沒有意見好 那附帶決議第二案我們就保留"},{"start":8595.194,"end":8620.38,"text":"最后宣告有关行政院含请审议强化防卫任性及不对称战力计划采购特别条例草案本院台湾民众党党团拟据保卫国家安全及强化不对称战力计划采购特别条例草案及本院国民党党团拟据强化国防及对美军事采购特别条例草案也并按审讯拟据审查报告提报院会请问各位委员"},{"start":8621.52,"end":8627.165,"text":"院會審議前是否交由黨團協商交由黨團協商謝謝院會審議時請推敗一位委員做補充說明請推敗好"},{"start":8639.605,"end":8660.764,"text":"好那就是由我來補充說明那二本次法案審查若有法制用字調次及援引調次之調整授權議事人員處理本次聯席會議事錄本次聯席會議事錄議事錄循例授權由主席核定後確定232526日為一次會現在散會"}]}},{"id":"167962","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167962","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e735625ced0a4fe681db4e8dc12ee0255144d5468a2b72bfd334a1e86bb4a3c825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:24:57 - 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人大要召委我們可以給你時間盡情發揮謝謝主席 是不是有請公平會這個陳代理主委好 請公平會主委 謝謝"},{"start":30.911,"end":55.005,"text":"委員好這個主委辛苦那幾個問題就從你的這個業務報告裡面來跟您請教就是說這個淨零啊淨零轉型跟ESG這是目前的趨勢但是會打著淨零跟ESG的這個口號或者這個大旗啊然後這個進行綠色行銷啊"},{"start":56.686,"end":81.608,"text":"綠色行銷當然你會有那種greenwashing 就是說漂綠那你們報告裡面也說這個變成這個市場競爭秩序的一些新興的威脅所以你的報告裡面說碳中和淨零這些未來會列為不實廣告的查核重點但是事實上數據來看這個是哪一個業務處在主管"},{"start":82.844,"end":97.142,"text":"它是我們不公平競爭處就是涉及到不實廣告的部分所以過去這一年有沒有針對這個所謂greenwashing的行為有沒有任何的採取我們有採取過我印象中應該是兩件"},{"start":98.504,"end":123.839,"text":"那個案子 它是涉及到對外宣稱創造一些實際上不存在的那個跟那個禁令有關的執行 譬如說整個綜合屍等等事實上以這個東西來吸引消費者來那有沒有裁罰呢有 有裁罰裁罰的金額是多少錢我們目前沒有罰還上的裁罰我們只是告訴他你違法 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你們要有更好的防止的措施包括警示機制的預警功能也好 或者你要累犯要罰還要加倍"},{"start":400.007,"end":423.858,"text":"這個部分這個有沒有在考慮我們的罰緩就是剛剛跟委員報告大概依照我們的施行細則36條我們會綜合各個因素考慮那當然我也了解委員的關切就是這些不動產生產可能資本額非常大然後沒有辦法達到嚇阻的效果那這些東西我們在委員會討論罰緩的時候都會有去具體的考慮那這個累犯呢累犯當然會加重"},{"start":424.838,"end":433.339,"text":"現在是加重比例多少其實並沒有說一個固定要加多少比例但是只要他過去曾經犯過我們一定會把這個法案再加重"},{"start":435.31,"end":462.79,"text":"罰則就是要給他們有嚇阻效果他是因為才會收斂這類似的行為才不會再發生如果你連罰則都沒有善用的話那恐怕他不會他不會理會你的這個行政的管理行政管理不夠一定要用比較高強度的這個行政裁罰是我們要注意這個問題另外加盟資訊的這個透明化2.0這部分你有沒有想法你要包括比較具體的平均收啦或者過去的違約比例等等"},{"start":463.61,"end":485.33,"text":"把這個資料庫把它建立起來讓這個加盟的陷阱能夠減少我想因為一些宣導是有在做就是跟這些加盟事業有談到說哪些資訊是你在加盟當下必須要可以跟他要來了解的那這些相關的資訊我們也都持續會去注意到底是不是有些新的要進來"},{"start":486.351,"end":509.303,"text":"那通常這些資訊是在整個加盟產業協商過程當中普遍大家都會重視的一些那這些東西我們要求加盟業者要揭露給加盟企業加盟陷阱存在如果受到這個加盟陷阱受到傷害的都是中小企業或者是小資本或者是一些中南部很多是加盟商如果先是陷阱他可能血本無歸"},{"start":510.839,"end":520.055,"text":"所以我們大概事前我們積極有在宣導這個加盟的一些相關的原則讓業者可以知道還有很多議題要跟您請教因為實際上的關係我必須要遵守事件好 謝謝謝謝委員好 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麻煩請代理主委請主委 謝謝"},{"start":27.175,"end":51.316,"text":"代理主委您好 因為現在主要是因為油價在漲 大家真的很關心物價希望公平會可以更積極一點 去針對現在有一些漲價的物品去調查就不要等到好像事情發生有人檢舉之後才去處理那也來不及了啦 因為現在油價它的上漲是非常快速的所以物價可能伴隨的也會很快速的上漲 千萬不要等到"},{"start":51.836,"end":77.953,"text":"有人有施政了然後再摸好幾天那來不及那我昨天是有看到針對那個塑膠袋的部分因為塑膠袋漲價這一塊或者是買不到這個部分經濟部講話也是變來變去啦經濟部一開始是講說不太會有這個問題啦因為他已經要求國內的石化大廠盡量不要去出口啦要針對國內然後所以供應無虞但後來又講說一些中盤商可能會有"},{"start":79.653,"end":105.819,"text":"就是囤貨的心理狀態所以導致於市場上買不到甚至於價錢提高那我是有看到經濟部產發署那邊有講說正在跟公平會還有提到公平會正在跟公平會針對幾個中盤商百貨公司 量販店去了解是不是真的缺貨然後隨時監測那這目前經濟部跟公平會你們的做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":106.955,"end":135.013,"text":"我們跟經濟部有密切的之間的配合那我們的調查重點就在於這種假設不供貨是不是出自於業者彼此之間的共同的抵制共同的杯葛那如果有這種合意存在的話這個就是公平法裡面所謂的聯合行為那我們就會立案調查那現在有調查的狀況怎麼樣都沒有 有沒有合意現在目前還沒有查到這樣的事證不過我們還在持續的調查你們已經查了多少中團商百貨公司跟量販店了"},{"start":136.574,"end":158.85,"text":"目前還沒有開始啦 但是我們這個是我們會查處的目標啦預計什麼時候開始因為經濟部 我想說經濟部是不是因為昨天在這邊被大家問啊就隨口講說已經跟公平會跟警察局已經針對中盤商百貨公司跟飯店做調查了解我沒有懂 但我今天是問問公平會公平會說還沒開始那預計什麼時候開始這幾天"},{"start":161.972,"end":185.358,"text":"小老百姓在買塑膠袋的時候都買不到我們去麵包店去買麵包然後麵包店老闆說有的說不提供塑膠袋有的說塑膠袋要算錢的那民眾想說為什麼他說以前買一袋30元的塑膠袋現在盤上就要60塊那全部都漲那公民會有沒有去我知道你們的立場是說如果他們是個別漲"},{"start":186.243,"end":212.92,"text":"那就不構成聯合壟斷嘛但是如果有合意了我們每一家講好說我們是不是一起來烘焙價格可能就也不一定要講好了就是說如果市場上有一些一些波動的情況是可以有足以懷疑說是出於合意我們還是可以推論他有合意那是不是可以積極一點啊我們就其實大家都在問這個問題是不是可以我們有主動在觀察這個事情主動大概比如說是不是幾天內可以針對這個部分做個公開跟社會大眾報告"},{"start":215.353,"end":233.784,"text":"主委你現在回答都比較空啦都一直講說我們準備我們要我們但是到底有沒有什麼時間啟動針對幾家這種具體的部分剛剛委員報告過我們接下來就會積極的去救產業鏈整個各個廠商去調查那是不是"},{"start":234.364,"end":260.009,"text":"我們預計大概差不多三個月內可以完成三個月都不知道漲到哪裡去了啦你要趕快而且我建議是不是可以建立一個資訊公開透明的機制告訴大家說現在說要帶比如說合理的價錢應該是多少然後讓大家知道說如果太貴的話他可能有問題就是三個月真的太久了因為我們證據調查還要送委員會討論所以這個時程上有時候比較難以掌握"},{"start":261.478,"end":278.809,"text":"好 盡快啦 好不好謝謝 我們盡量然後我請教一下之前紐西蘭鮮奶因為零關稅的嘛因為價格居高不下後來好像在幾個月前公民會有去調查那價格有下來那目前這個紐西蘭鮮奶最新的進度你們還有再持續追查嗎"},{"start":279.571,"end":292.908,"text":"我目前根據上一次的調查結果是並沒有違反公平法的規定因為國內的現代市場有競爭然後紐西蘭市佔率也不高所以我們後來調查結果是沒有違反公平法沒有違反公平法OK 好 謝謝好 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PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1750.011,"end":1757.851,"text":"好 那我們會議開始那請組密報告初期人數報告委員會初期委員12人 已組法定人數"},{"start":1759.138,"end":1783.479,"text":"好那現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第五會期經紀人會第四次全體委員會議事錄時間115年3月25日星期三9時至14時4分地點紅樓101會議室出席人邱映穎等14人列席人林大萬等26人列席人員經濟部部長龔明星等主席召集委員洪玉祥"},{"start":1783.959,"end":1812.878,"text":"報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄決定 確定二 邀請經濟部部長列席報告優惠概況並備質詢三 邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力公司董事長就核二核三廠自主安全檢查現況與再運轉計畫及政府重啟核電三原則之歷年進度與現況說明進行報告並備質詢報告事項合併詢答經濟部部長龔迎新及台灣電力公司董事長曾文森報告後文靜穎等30億人提出質詢"},{"start":1813.678,"end":1834.434,"text":"居然經濟部部長龔明星等及其答覆決定一 登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束二 委員吳立華及羅志強所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三 書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會委員六 要求期限者從其所定 散會宣布完畢"},{"start":1836.087,"end":1848.713,"text":"好那因為目前在場委員還不足三人我們議事錄的確定暫不處理接下來繼續進行報告事項請宣讀邀請公民交易委員會代理主任委員練習報告優惠概況並備質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1854.838,"end":1877.79,"text":"好我們介紹一下在場的委員跟這個官員代表那我們在場有邱穎穎委員那公平教育委員會代理主任委員陳志明然後公平教育委員會主任秘書毛浩吉那因為其他的單位以及主管眾多我就不一一介紹謝謝"},{"start":1881.988,"end":1891.182,"text":"好 那本日議程我們排定這個公平交易委員會業務報告那麼請公平交易委員會陳志明代理主任委員報告"},{"start":1901.691,"end":1922.432,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位同仁大家早安今天很榮幸能夠代表公平會來到經濟委員會進行公平交易委員會的業務報告首先感謝貴院跟經濟委員會在過去一年來對公平會的大力支持以下我僅僅要的從十個面向來跟各位委員報告公平會過去這一年的業務推展"},{"start":1923.346,"end":1935.654,"text":"首先就執行公平交易法跟多層次傳銷管理法的部分本會在114年度共收辦案件3820件 結案件數達3978件處分案件有169件 裁罰金額共計6106萬元我們近期查處的重大案件包含了木星板產製業者的合意調漲價格 地方工會"},{"start":1947.222,"end":1975.352,"text":"訂定收費標準以及部分的建案跟教育產品涉及誤導期望消費者的行為另外我們也積極查處沒有依法來辦變更報備或沒有依多層次傳銷管理辦法辦理退出退貨的案件那進一步在事業的結合跟聯合行為的審議方面我們審查了不少的案子包含了遠傳電信跟新世紀之東思納捷科技的結合案我們也不禁止Uber跟皇冠大車隊的結合案"},{"start":1976.452,"end":2004.241,"text":"那同時我們對於喬太星企業等35家事業的聯合採購小麥案那另外一個值得一提的是有關Dell公司跟供應鏈事業之間聯合採購再生能源的申請案我們都在附加負擔之下我們通過了我們許可的這個結合案那Dell案也是本會首例事業以永續發展作為核心來申請聯合行為例外許可的案例相當具有指標性"},{"start":2004.961,"end":2023.134,"text":"那再者關於生成式AI人工智慧的執法方向那各界都非常關切生成式AI的發展本會在115年的3月18日發布了一項政策聲明那在這項政策聲明當中我們彙整了公眾的意見提出了七項的競爭議題"},{"start":2024.835,"end":2048.537,"text":"包含了晶片跟數據取得的限制雲端服務轉換困難搭售與生態系整合人才流動事業結合聯合行為以及不當行銷等重要的競爭議題那在聲明當中本會確立的四大執法的一個原則那就是議題跟證據導向在地連結可競爭性以及合理原則這會是我們未來在處理AI相關的競爭議題時候的一個執法基礎"},{"start":2050.999,"end":2064.508,"text":"同時我們在永續的參考指引方面的制定為了避免事業在永續發展的過程當中誤觸了競爭法規範的紅線我們以2050年的這個禁營排放目標為基礎在114年的2月19號發布了事業因應環境永續涉及聯合行為之參考指引我們希望能夠給企業一個自我檢視的一個警察的清單來降低他們違法的風險"},{"start":2081.139,"end":2101.876,"text":"那在頒布這個指引後我們並且在各地舉辦了宣導的說明會來協助企業理解並落實永續的行為那這項指引獲得國際的高度肯定就在昨天我們得到消息我們的這個指引獲得了2026年國際知名的競爭法出版商Konkyu Holmes他的反托拉斯寫作獎"},{"start":2103.325,"end":2121.737,"text":"那另外為了遏止這個不實廣告維護消費者權益114年度我們共處分了不實廣告案件105件罰還1581萬元那為了強化我們的查查效能我們持續推動數位匯流新時代的不實廣告及不動產查查的計畫"},{"start":2123.038,"end":2133.652,"text":"並且透過科技執法針對AI生成廣告以及類似像碳中和、淨零等表率的相關的廣告進行監控來確保消費者不受不實廣告的誤導"},{"start":2135.083,"end":2160.451,"text":"那至於在多層次傳銷管理的精進措施部分呢我們為了確保傳銷商以及正當的傳銷事業的權益本會在114年共處分違法傳銷案件30件裁罰金額合計645萬元而且完成了4570件的報備與變更案件完成業務檢查54家另外本會也建置了透明的查詢平台"},{"start":2161.071,"end":2188.911,"text":"那我们公开这个传销商跟传销事业之间的这个所谓奖金比例的规定而且我们新增了近三年违法次数较多的业者名单同时揭露违法案件的类型来提升资讯的透明度那我们也持续跟检调卫生机关合作来共同打击不法的传销行为那接着在竞争法治的研修部分本会已经成立了修法小组那我们全面的检视修正公平交易法的修法草案"},{"start":2189.611,"end":2206.965,"text":"另外近期我們也修正調高獨佔認定跟結合申報的金額的門檻來反映經濟發展的趨勢並且降低業者不必要的行政負擔那同時也修正了很多多項處理原則跟申請的須知來確保法規能夠更符合市場的現況"},{"start":2208.426,"end":2228.837,"text":"另一方面為了防止人為操縱物價本會透過專案小組監測民生物資並且在春節、端午節、中秋節等節慶執行查核計畫本會也參與行政院穩定物價小組的運作密切與經濟部、農業部等相關部會合作共同穩定物價"},{"start":2229.958,"end":2254.04,"text":"同時我們也積極的倡議公平交易的理念本會持續透過多元的管道包含網路、電視、政府部門的會議大眾院校的訓練營及產業的宣導來推廣公平交易的概念提升社會大眾對於維持市場競爭價值的一個認知那最後在深化國際交流跟合作方面"},{"start":2254.781,"end":2276.221,"text":"公平會積極的參與OECD、ICN還有APEC等國際會議本人也親自率訪同仁到日本、新加坡、巴拉圭等地進行雙邊會議跟交流分享我國在永續指引還有生成式AI競爭法議題的經驗這些交流除了對本會深有注意以外也獲得了各國的一個肯定"},{"start":2277.595,"end":2296.171,"text":"公平教育的競爭環境是促進資源有效配置提升產業效率強化國家競爭力的重要關鍵公平會將持續完備法制精進執法品質與效率確保市場機制發揮作用為國家永續繁榮定定穩固的基礎以上報告敬請委員執教"},{"start":2300.848,"end":2323.145,"text":"好那現在進行詢答委員執行前原例做以下的宣告那每位委員的發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們首先請登記第一位的邱益穎委員發言謝謝"},{"start":2329.745,"end":2332.328,"text":"主委我想請教一下你可以想像現在塑膠袋缺貨嗎"},{"start":2348.999,"end":2372.571,"text":"我從沒一樣大家都知道有看到你有看到這個新聞嗎大家講說這個因為中東情勢的影響所以很多的原物料短缺或者是很多的原物料這個價格上漲石化的原物料價格也上漲那昨天其實這個蔡易餘委員陳書越委員等他們其實有召開一個記者會那也曾經也在這個委員會的場合問過了經濟部"},{"start":2374.693,"end":2390.971,"text":"現在市面上塑膠袋跟便當盒等這種一次性的包材在末端是買不到的那甚或至是在農業上面很多農民的這個農作物是需要套袋我們的這個塑膠袋也是買不到的"},{"start":2392.212,"end":2413.227,"text":"經濟部去查了一下他說其實原物料並沒有短缺但是中盤的經銷商延遲出貨操作價格已經有這樣的情形出現那主委您說你有看到這個新聞請問一下看到新聞之後您的後續動作是什麼就公評會來講會不會主動出擊主動去調查來"},{"start":2417.653,"end":2445.351,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是這些新聞出來以後我們也看到其實經濟部已經開始進行全面性的市場盤查當然本會在知道這個消息以後業務單位也去進了一個初步的了解那針對這個塑膠袋這個產業不同的品質塑膠袋價格等等那目前當然公平會立場我們對這個物價的波動主要是以聯合行為為主就是同一時間是不是有聯合漲價這個情形那我們有密切在觀察那業務單位已經持續在進行市場的了解"},{"start":2445.811,"end":2461.982,"text":"當然我會配合經濟部那邊調查結果如果有聯合我想現在還沒有到聯合漲價的狀況現在大概是聯合延遲出貨囤貨然後造成市場上面對於塑膠袋的需求短缺恐慌然後慢慢的"},{"start":2462.682,"end":2483.977,"text":"他就會烘台價格這個價格就會漲上去了所以他這個是有節奏性的當然他不會一次到聯合漲價但是如果公平會要等到他聯合漲價的時候才來做稽查才來做調查的話那我覺得那個動作都太慢了所以我們一直不斷的每一次在這裡都會請公平會應該要更積極主動一點就你已經發現這個問題"},{"start":2485.598,"end":2505.222,"text":"他在源頭已經出來了當然經濟部已經注意到了所以是不是公平會也應該更積極主動一點到底是不是囤貨壟斷造成延遲性出貨然後慢慢的要去烘台價格你如果能夠在前段的時候就先嚇指他的話那你就不會有後面烘台價格我剛剛跟委員報告就是業務單位已經會繼續觀察當然剛剛委員談到聯合囤積這也是聯合行為"},{"start":2510.123,"end":2518.347,"text":"所以只要有事證的話我們會介入調查我們會主動調查第二個我想請教一下主委您也應該會常常關心時事的進展這個外送平台的併購案最近有一個很大的新聞就是Grab去收購Foodpanda"},{"start":2538.996,"end":2567.907,"text":"那其实在您的报告里头也提到了我们去年在讨论Uber Eats要去并购Fu Panda的这个案子其实引起了台湾的社会大众很大的关心这个会不会造成如果这两家结合Uber Eats跟Fu Panda结合之后其实在台湾的市占率是高达九成以上那当然公平会已经禁止他们了但是最近这个GrabGrab在台湾它没有任何的业务执行但它在东南亚其实是一个Super App"},{"start":2568.667,"end":2585.937,"text":"它包含食衣住行等等其實它在東南亞的影響力是非常的大那Grab去併購去收購Fu Panda我們擔心的是說它是不是有一個繞道的行為因為這個Grab的它其實"},{"start":2587.492,"end":2605.975,"text":"Uber是Grab的重要股東Uber佔了這個股份大概是13%我想這個你們應該有密切掌握那Uber的執行長其實也是Grab的董事所以就這樣的一個結合情形結合案到底公平會是怎麼看"},{"start":2606.724,"end":2626.204,"text":"因為這個案子目前還沒有送件所以我想等案子進來以後我們還是會依照過去在審Uber Eats跟那個Foodpanda的案子那個分析架構來進行分析當然這個案子跟前面那個案子有點不太一樣因為前面案子是結尾以後市佔率會高達九成那這個案子基本上是一個企業來頂Foodpanda的地位那不過剛剛委員提到這個問題 繞道的問題"},{"start":2628.186,"end":2656.251,"text":"股權持有的問題這也是我們在分析當中會特別注意不過這個地方先跟委員說明一下就是說雖然UberEats持有Grab的13.5%但是據我們進一步的了解從它的財報去看其實那個股權結構是有不同的類型有A股B股所以實際上它的控制的權力可能沒有達到13%不過我們還是會繼續的去注意就是說這個13%這件事實會不會導致他們在結合以後有進行市場行為濫用的一個可能性"},{"start":2656.511,"end":2679.991,"text":"這些都是我們在分析當中會特別去注意所以你們現在也已經開始在收集資料我想對於公平匯來講我們大概也不是說就形式上比如說他不是用Uber Eats的名字來併購Foodpanda他換了一個名字叫Grab換了一家公司那實際的在股權的掌握上面或者是在這個整個公司的實質影響力上面"},{"start":2680.892,"end":2703.146,"text":"對於Foodpanda的公司運作上面是不是會造成巨大的影響會不會也造成間接的壟斷行為這個我想也都是公平會應該要考量的重點這個我們後續再分析的部分我想也要再跟您討論到就是說我們的外送專法這個外送平台專法即將要上路"},{"start":2704.787,"end":2733.561,"text":"公平會的角色在這個外送專法的上路的這個同時當然這個跟公平會沒有太大的連結公平會大概還是防止壟斷不過這樣的一個併購案如果它真的是一個繞道的併購案的話我想對於我們這個外送專法的上路對於外送員的這樣的一個保障其實還是會受到相當大的影響的"},{"start":2734.561,"end":2751.476,"text":"我想外送專法的實施如果導致平台他把成本轉嫁給下游那彼此之間出現了按摩勾結聯合漲價的行為這當然我們還是有空間可以去介入主要就是在外送專法實施以後後續所引發的這些競爭行為如果抵觸公平法我們還是有介入的空間"},{"start":2752.856,"end":2772.225,"text":"我想這個還是要請公平會要密切的注意第三題要跟您請教主委您知道這家公司嗎我知道你們有沒有開始在介入調查有 這個有調查那現在調查的狀況是什麼這家魅力公司還真的很厲害"},{"start":2774.183,"end":2785.489,"text":"它的魚油120顆就要賣600塊美金我算了一下如果你用美元的匯率如果乘以30的話120顆要賣18000塊台幣等於一顆要賣150塊一顆魚油要賣150塊而且它沒有健康食品的字號"},{"start":2795.663,"end":2814.11,"text":"那我們昨天試圖要進入這家公司的網站這網站已經被封了 已經被封起來了那這個刑事警察局直接認定這是一家詐騙所以這家公司到底有沒有來跟公平會申請報備那當時你們的審核標準是什麼"},{"start":2817.659,"end":2842.157,"text":"他們113年的時候有報備那這家公司目前已經申請要停止營業已經有跟我們來報備來跟你們申請停止營業對但是對於這個假傳銷珍稀金的這個狀態公平會的掌握程度到哪裡我們曾經有因為他並跟商品沒有來報備我們處分過他在個案當中那目前還在調查就是說他有沒有該因報備而不報備的一個情況"},{"start":2842.978,"end":2867.472,"text":"所以這個案子還在調查當中所以主委這個也是我們一直在講傳銷直銷公司就是每一個都是用報備制其實我們沒有辦法進行實質的審查對於很多的消費大眾來講或者是很多的投資人來講你很容易就陷入這種假傳銷徵稀金然後被詐騙現在這個初估這一家公司的詐騙金額高達台幣15億元以上"},{"start":2872.655,"end":2899.207,"text":"這是一個非常非常嚴重的問題像這樣子一直不斷的幾乎每一次我們只要跟公平會談都會有一家新的直銷公司出狀況甚至甚或是不只一家那這些狀態公平會也只能用報備的方式去處理這個也是我們覺得很憂心的其實有心人要詐騙的話就會鑽這個直銷的漏洞這個也是我們在法令上應該要趕快去補足的地方"},{"start":2899.997,"end":2926.927,"text":"我想詐騙的部分當然我也很清楚就是由法務部這邊來處理詐騙當然是法務部處理我現在講就是說這些傳銷公司這個報備許可制這個裡面有一些因素必須要同時考慮因為傳銷也是一個商業行為所以到底許可報備等等之間的糾葛本會在過去也表達過我們的立場就是說對於這個傳銷事業本身也是零售事業的一部分是不是有適合高強度的介入管制我覺得這還有必要進一步去"},{"start":2927.247,"end":2950.846,"text":"不過你如果發現這樣的一個詐騙行為詐騙案件或詐騙公司一直不斷的在上升的時候其實公平會就不應該這麼相悅也不應該這麼消極這是本席的建議好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝邱映委員謝謝公平會主委好那因為在場人數已足三人請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤無錯誤議事錄確定"},{"start":2955.526,"end":2969.377,"text":"那現在請楊瓊英委員進行質詢 謝謝好 謝謝主席 楊瓊英代言邀請主委請主委上台"},{"start":2975.765,"end":2992.934,"text":"主委長那鑑於外送平臺市場高度的一個集中在2024年底呢我們這個Uber Eats跟普遍達的申請合併案那因為市場的高度"},{"start":2993.634,"end":3019.937,"text":"这个高达九成的一个市占率所以当时呢怕说影响整个市场的竞争所以最后公品会是否决是否决这也引起社会大众大家非常非常的关注但是近期东南亚数位这个服务商他宣布要以六亿美元来收购护片打我们台湾的外送这个业务网"},{"start":3021.258,"end":3031.651,"text":"但是我們也知道Uber呢是Grab最大的一個機構股東它幾乎佔了13%左右那所以外界質疑是不是會透過股權結構 繞道來投資實際上"},{"start":3038.118,"end":3049.503,"text":"我們現在達成了原先被否決的市場整合效果所以公平問你雖然也表示了個案是獨立審查不會因為舊案來影響新案但是最終的市場的一個結構仍舊會高度的集中那麼如果僅是以投資架構不同來重新來審查"},{"start":3066.371,"end":3088.484,"text":"那麼可能會造成規避競爭審查的一個疑慮所以本席要在這邊請教請教Grab收購這個Hupenda的案中那Uber它身為主要的股東之一公平問你是不是會就實質控制力而非僅是以形式股權的一個結構來進行審查呢請做說明"},{"start":3092.046,"end":3096.49,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛委員講的沒錯我們在審查的時候我們會以實質的控制關係來判斷所以我們原則就是以實質控制力來做審查的精髓我跟委員再進一步說明就是說沒錯我們初步的了解是UberEat的控制大概13%左右Grab的股權"},{"start":3110.54,"end":3128.794,"text":"但是我們進一步去看財報它的股權結構是有分不同的股權就是有些股權是沒有表決權或是表決權數比較多的所以實際上Uber對Grab的控制力可能沒有達到13.5這個數字所呈現出來不過我們在分析過程當中這個13.5這個形式上的要件會不會影響到結合以後"},{"start":3130.856,"end":3159.399,"text":"他透過某一種他一定會超半數以上嘛這個我們會後續會在分析的時候會把它納入分析的過程當中所以我們原則上還是以實質控制力為最重要的精髓審查方向那所以本席認為如果最終的市場他集中的效果跟先前遭到否決遭到否決的合併案是相近的那麼如果你公民會一旦"},{"start":3159.88,"end":3170.262,"text":"你的核准那等于你允许了允许了这个业者透过闹道投资的方式来规避原有的反垄断的一个审查"},{"start":3171.377,"end":3194.06,"text":"請再說說明所以剛剛委員講的沒錯就是說如果結合以後導致市場過度集中那這兩個案子基本上在股權在市場佔有率的影響前案跟後案是不太一樣前案結合以後九成大概市佔率會達到九成那這個案子是一家公司來接付PANDA的原先的地位所以事實上從初步來看的話它的市場結構是沒有太大的改變只是換一個人來做而已"},{"start":3194.801,"end":3223.283,"text":"那當然這個並不表示說一定都沒有問題我們還是在審查過程當中會進行這個市場整個整體分析來看看他對市場的影響程度我們唯一要避免落到投資的方式去取巧這個非常重要這第一點第二個我們要重視全我們市場的一個公平競爭你不能導致削弱了溢價的一個能力這是非常重要的也是我們消費者都在看的一個議題"},{"start":3226.496,"end":3246.773,"text":"因為我們的目的就是第一個不能壟斷而且市場不能沒有競爭對消費者來講能夠達到他的一個公平性那對業者也能夠達到一個市場的一個競爭這才能夠達到三贏這也是你公平會最重要的精神這個案子現在還沒進來但是我們分析的架構就如同剛剛委員講的"},{"start":3247.854,"end":3266.803,"text":"那個是一個大的架構我們一定會面面的考慮到這些問題好 也就是以實質控制力接下來本席要跟你討論深層次的人工智慧產業快速的發展那麼全球都在佈局大家都高度的關注大型科技公司在算力"},{"start":3268.063,"end":3286.197,"text":"以及在資料還有整個平台生態上的一個市場集中的這個問題那你在3月19號你也提出了公布出深層式AI競爭政策的一個宣布但是你提出了三個方向導向第一個議題"},{"start":3287.338,"end":3298.664,"text":"第二個證據第三個合理的原則為你執行的方向所以你認為到目前為止並沒有需要再修法的一個必要性但是AI產業它具有高度規模的經濟網路的一個效應所以如果從算力來看從雲端服務來看"},{"start":3310.049,"end":3328.34,"text":"模型的一個平台來看他整個市場的力道力量正快速的在集中少數的跨國企業上那如果你僅以個案來作為審查那到時候你是不是有這個能力能夠因應的整個新型的"},{"start":3328.94,"end":3345.297,"text":"新型態的一個壟斷跟競爭的一個限制行為那所以主委本席要請教面對新城市AI你可能形成的平台壟斷與算力中心你未來會出現大型的科技公司透過資料"},{"start":3347.41,"end":3374.256,"text":"順利生態這個生態系的一個優勢呢來排除這個競爭力那你是不是已經具備有監理的這個工具呢跟委員報告一下這個因為就當如同委員所講的整個AI市場的變化太快了所以我們之所以做這個AI的生成是公眾意見其實就是讓公平的進一步去了解目前市場的現況那針對所可能產生的這些相關的競爭問題包含委員剛剛所關切的問題"},{"start":3377.037,"end":3397.295,"text":"我們就目前現階段看起來我們公平法裡面的既有架構是可以初步來處理但是我們要強化的部分是在於我們數位執法的能力就是當業者使用某些特定的數位技術在進行違反競爭行為我們是不是有能力去破解這樣的技術重點就在這裡所以你認為你不需要修法你的基本架構是夠的但是"},{"start":3399.517,"end":3416.902,"text":"日新月異的比如說數位您剛才所說的我們要怎麼去應對也就是本席說的你的監理工具你具備了嗎這個我們持續都在精進包含我們不管在軟硬體部分還有在人才訓練的部分我們都積極的這個部分必須要與時俱進好 一定要加油那接下來最後一個議題本席告訴你土方的問題"},{"start":3423.891,"end":3449.078,"text":"在這個2月25號的時候國土署正式給你公文請公平會協助調查釐清是否有涉及聯合壟斷以及調漲的這個問題請教到目前為止你們查的情況怎麼樣其實在跟國土署進行協商之前我們已經有進行市場進行了解那到目前為止我們發現市場上的價格並沒有聯合一致的情況"},{"start":3449.938,"end":3466.242,"text":"但是普遍都漲了三倍啊他是漲價 這個漲價很奇怪但是你認為很奇怪 我們消費者更奇怪啊公共工程都已經影響了 各縣市都已經困難了那怎麼辦連國土署都請求你協助啊所以我們請國土署說能夠協助我們如果他手邊有比較具體的證據可以協助我們那我們來判斷是不是有聯合行為你剛才說漲價很奇怪"},{"start":3475.925,"end":3481.489,"text":"但是國土組織政府機構都要求你協助我們的分工是我們會針對聯合漲價這部分來處理那你社會現象就是漲啊那你已經影響到公共工程啊民間也影響啊 電視也影響啊"},{"start":3494.179,"end":3505.588,"text":"聯合行為的發動必須要市場價格有一致同業之間的價格趨於一致我們才可以 本席具體要求喔也就是說你們告訴社會大眾說要有業者來檢舉你們才會立案調查這一點本席認為已經社會普遍化的一個困難你們應該要主動調查我們有主動啦 對不對不能等到有人檢舉你才要因為已經是社會非常普遍的一個問題產生現象了嘛"},{"start":3521.621,"end":3537.526,"text":"還是跟委員報告一下我們有主動去調查但是要不要立案這個立案要有一定的基本的法律的條件就是我剛剛講的業者之間的價格是不是趨於一致那這個時候我們可以立案那調查了解市場現況那個價格的波動我們是一直都有持續在做市場競爭的這個機制是整個產業"},{"start":3542.088,"end":3546.073,"text":"聯動非常重要的一個關鍵本席說的連國土署都請你必須要協助趕快去查有沒有聯合壟斷趕快去查有沒有這個現象代表著社會目前對這個議題它是產生困難的疑惑的"},{"start":3558.188,"end":3579.258,"text":"所以公平會的立場非常的重要所以這一點本身也希望在國土署2月25號函請正式函請你公平會協助調查釐清是否涉及聯合漲價與壟斷的行為這一點你務必要做到對不對我們持續都有在做了我們持續都有在做了好 加油謝謝 謝謝我好 謝謝楊承英委員"},{"start":3583.38,"end":3610.076,"text":"我想這個工業對於剛剛不管是塑膠袋塑料然後還有這個土方是亂的我想就是主動積極一點好不好好那接下來我們請鄭正琴委員質詢謝謝主席好我想請一下陳主委陳主委請上台謝謝"},{"start":3617.786,"end":3634.88,"text":"主委好我想因為我們在去上個會期的時候我們順利通過外送源權益保障及外送平台管理法然後其實之前有關於Uber原本打算要把福佩娜併掉的時候其實也引起很大的一個社會的關注"},{"start":3635.26,"end":3650.354,"text":"因為現在這個外送相關領域跟這個外送員跟消費者關係實在太密切了所以之前就是我們公會這邊其實也很具體的就是當時擋下了那個Uber想要併掉直接併掉Fupenda這件事情嘛"},{"start":3651.034,"end":3673.47,"text":"那最近一個新的一個動向就是因為東南亞的Grab其實他們有宣布想要把福本達台灣的市場把它給併下來那剛剛其實很多委員都關心到這個事情那您剛也特別具體提到了就是說Uber這邊它占了Grab它這邊大概只有13.1個百分點的持股可是它的實質影響力的部分大概只有5.5%"},{"start":3674.811,"end":3688.024,"text":"就是說他的具體持股跟他的控制能力其實確實有一些落差因為他們當然在規劃持股當中的問題那我想特別請教一下就是到目前為止當然就是規約他們還沒有送件進來嘛還沒有送件進來嘛"},{"start":3691.107,"end":3708.03,"text":"OK那我這邊想要特別提到一個狀態就說因為我後來去看了一下那個Grab在給美國政交委員會這邊所提出的一個年報當中的時候他這邊有特別提到了一個這個狀態那我想問幾個問題第一個情況就是針對剛剛我們講到說他只有暫時3.1%的持股他基本上就是"},{"start":3716.741,"end":3737.28,"text":"有重要的一個持股關係可是並沒有直接控制這樣的一個情況那我們公評會對於這樣子的一個狀態有沒有一個審查的標準還是到時候就用50%這邊最粗糙的方式這樣來看跟委員報告我們有一些量化的工具會針對這個持股比例對於後續結合以後"},{"start":3738.001,"end":3766.542,"text":"他的這個影響對市場價格影響我們會比較近客觀跟數據的客觀的分析所以其實並不是單純以50或不是50來做一個判斷那個就是如同剛剛我所講的我們會以實質的控制的能力理解那我這邊想特別提到其實因為我們回來就針對國內部分的時候我們特別去看因為他在給美國的那個年報當中的時候他第12頁他自己就提到說他們之前在東南亞就是要"},{"start":3767.242,"end":3780.674,"text":"收購Uber的一個市場的時候他們出現了一個禁業禁止的狀態那某一個部分在整個這過程當中其實對於整個公平交易這樣的狀態的時候"},{"start":3782.495,"end":3805.927,"text":"感覺上有一點點灰色 當然他還沒有違規違法這部分可是事實上確實也產生一些問題 但我們後來再去看整個Grab給美國的聯報當中我們看到他們在很多國家 事實上在整個公平交易相關的領域其實是很多爭議的包括在新加坡他們曾經想要收購一個Chance Cab 其實後來"},{"start":3806.747,"end":3811.452,"text":"被終止了後來被終止那麼在菲律賓這邊的時候因為他們違反了定價跟服務品的承諾被罰款100萬當然現在100萬美元當然現在他們還在訴訟爭議當中那菲律賓這邊其實也表示很可能會再提高對他們的一個罰金"},{"start":3825.566,"end":3852.279,"text":"那另外一個部分在馬來西亞這邊更關鍵因為在2019年的時候Grabber它濫用市場支配的地位然後對司機和合作夥伴施加限制性的一個條款然後被罰了2140萬美元那這個部分其實都是表示說Grabber這家公司在過去在國際當中的一些法尊的紀錄其實並不是那麼良好而且都牽涉到一些公平交易或者是市場壟斷的相關的一個事情針對這個部分"},{"start":3855.1,"end":3874.956,"text":"不知道主委如果說他們因為他們現在案子還沒有送價可是他們已經對市場上發布他們跟那個富盛大達成這樣的一個合意的一個狀態那對於這樣子他曾經在國外的市場出現很多個濫用市場力量違反主管機關附加條件還有傷害平台參與者權益這樣的一些記錄的時候我們對於這樣子的一個可能的一個併購方的時候那主委這邊怎麼看"},{"start":3883.102,"end":3906.393,"text":"我想在結合的審查部分當然我們主要是針對結合以後對市場結構的改變有沒有降低那個競爭的強度那剛剛委員所關切這些問題都是就是結合以後的行為濫用的問題那這部分當然公平會還是可以調查只是說我們的調查必須要有一些依據市場地位市場佔有率然後他的行為是不是真的有如同剛剛所舉的各國這種行為"},{"start":3907.213,"end":3926.552,"text":"理解 因為我在想說之前大家擔心Uber其實會壟斷全部的市場那它現在因為跟Grab是有很密切的一個關係它是重大的一個持股者然後可能會產生怎麼樣的實質影響力的部分確實是之後我們要做更精準的評估可是我們希望公評會這邊能夠嚴加把關"},{"start":3928.655,"end":3943.656,"text":"對於台灣的消費者還有真正在市場當中的一個從業者當中能夠做好最好的一個保障如果說這家廠商之前在海外有這麼多不適當的一些法尊記錄的時候那我們就希望更嚴格的來審查它好不好"},{"start":3944.156,"end":3971.36,"text":"謝謝委員提供這些資料我們會在審查的時候會納入考慮OK那我想說最近那個國際上對整個定業制企業有一些所謂的暗黑模式這個部分也引起很大的關注所謂的暗黑模式就是說企業不是透過產品本身吸引用戶而是透過頁面設計然後資訊揭露的落差以及繁瑣的流程讓消費者在不完全知情的情況下做出決定甚至於想退都退不掉一個最典型的就是Adobe"},{"start":3971.96,"end":3996.975,"text":"那美國這邊的時候呢已經對於他的年度合約越角的方式這樣的一個做法已經產生了一個懲處那英國也要求去針對這家公司這樣子的一個做法的時候來做一個進行的一個那個調查台灣對於這樣子的一個情況有沒有做什麼樣的動作"},{"start":3998.157,"end":4004.074,"text":"據我的了解 Adobe的那個行為他似乎好像已經在網站上取消就是那個解約金的部分"},{"start":4004.781,"end":4027.903,"text":"那台灣的部分我只要像速發部他應該有已經制定那個定型化契約將來會對暗黑模式的相關行為列為是定型化契約裡面所必須要遵守的一個規定那剛剛委員所談到國外的這些經驗其實就我的了解國外處理這個問題的法律的依據大部分都不是競爭法不是所謂的公平教育法或是反托拉斯法"},{"start":4028.283,"end":4045.428,"text":"大部分像美國它有一個特別的法規那其他國家有一些比較偏向於消費者保護的法規來處理這個問題那當然並不是說在我們公平法裡面完全沒有著墨的空間有時候暗黑模式如果你在網路上你有揭示一些訊息這些訊息實際上是做不到的"},{"start":4046.329,"end":4062.349,"text":"誤導消費者我們不排除有可能構成不實廣告不過這些前提都建議在他有把一些在性質上是屬於暗黑的事先在網路上去散佈出來讓消費者誤以為真的是這樣那如果他都沒做其實我們就很難去用什麼不實廣告來處理這樣的問題"},{"start":4063.951,"end":4091.836,"text":"OK 那我在想說因為現在這個那個數位經濟其實非常的發達啦那以這種訂閱的方式在為主要商業模式的企業其實非常非常的多所以我舉到這家公司的狀態的時候很大一個部分只是說針對這個部分就是我們只是針對這樣子所謂一個年度約的部分然後月繳的部分那當你要退出來的時候你要終止因為月繳很多消費者都以為說他可以直接終止"},{"start":4092.897,"end":4112.86,"text":"隨時終止那只要這個月處理完就好可是事實上我們發現他可能在這過程當中會有很多的一個懲罰條款會讓你要退出的時候門檻變得很多所以我們針對這個部分的時候不是針對這家公司而是針對這樣的產業我們希望公平會的時候能夠多加去注意因為現在這樣的情況其實非常的多"},{"start":4113.44,"end":4138.951,"text":"我們持續有在注意就是在我們公平法的法規授權範圍之內我們會去關切這個問題有沒有跟我們的公平交易法產生關聯在交易前的時候我們希望消費者是有被充分告知的不會有很多隱藏的一個陷阱那麼在整個如果說消費者要退訂的過程當中的時候呢也不會被限制的過於複雜讓消費者沒有辦法輕易的一個退訂那這個部分的時候我們希望那個"},{"start":4139.671,"end":4167.388,"text":"主委這邊能夠特別的關注因為這對整個消費者的權益來說其實是很重要的一個部分各位報告 那個速發部黃管署他們都消保服務他們針對這個意義其實都有些規定那我最後的部分呢針對那個就3月18號公平會這邊提出的生成式AI競爭政策這個部分嘛那我簡單講一下因為你們在這報告裡面提到了雲端GPU基礎模型應用服務等等不同的領域我想對公平會來講這是同一個市場還是不同的市場"},{"start":4169.441,"end":4187.734,"text":"這取決於我們怎麼去看待這個產業我們在政策聲明裡面有談到我們回收回來的業者的意見普遍認為這個產業未來會走向所謂的生態系進展所以一旦把它視為是生態系的話那很多的個別的服務會整合在同一個模型底下"},{"start":4188.214,"end":4213.767,"text":"那對我們的市場界一定會產生很大的挑戰所以剛剛委員這個問題是很好的問題但是很重要也很困難的問題這個必須要有一些相關的事證做我們後續判斷的基礎是 那我在想說因為整個甚至AI這部分其實可能是未來整個經濟的一個重要的一個趨勢也是消費者很重要的一個趨勢會影響到我們的人類生活非常的大所以針對這個部分我覺得它可能會建立更高的一個壟斷跟門檻"},{"start":4215.208,"end":4230.857,"text":"那既然會有更高的壟斷門檻跟我們的公平會關係就會密切所以我也很高興看到公平會這邊主動公布了這樣的一個政策聲明表示公平會願意來擔起這個責任可是我們也目前看到的時候就說就是"},{"start":4231.397,"end":4256.19,"text":"整個執法的標準還有一些判準感覺都還沒有出來那我們希望這過程當中公平委員能夠更加的積極然後來保障這個甚至是AI所產生的一些消費上面的一個公平性我們會隨時做滾動式的調整會隨著業界的發展來做我們對執法的準備目前這個只是初步我們對市場的理解還有一些初步的執法立場的宣示那我們會持續不斷的進行好 政治部門請繼續加油謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝鄧正淺委員謝謝主委"},{"start":4260.712,"end":4280.688,"text":"待會鄭天才委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘那接下來的話我們請陳庭菲委員質詢謝謝主席我們請公平會主委請公平會主委謝謝委員長"},{"start":4288.952,"end":4316.077,"text":"主委我想今天大家應該都會關心近期因為整個中東的石油危機而衝擊到我們國內的幾家石化供應鏈的部分那麼這當然有包含了塑膠、醫藥包材、肥料、建材等等那我相信這幾天的新聞報的比較大的就是我們的塑膠袋"},{"start":4317.117,"end":4346.169,"text":"我們的塑膠袋你有去了解整個的狀況到底是怎麼了嗎我們有初步去了解整個塑膠袋的產業的現況包含不同的塑膠袋的材質等等各種價格目前我們是有初步了解但是因為這個議題目前就我了解經濟部已經在做市場全面的盤整我們會積極跟他配合你會積極跟他配合對 如果他那邊有發現任何聯合壟斷的聯合定價的行為我們就會介入調查問題是現在有查到是不願意出貨"},{"start":4347.95,"end":4376.205,"text":"那這算不算聯合壟斷如果他真的有聯合集體拒絕出貨這當然也是聯合行為的一種這也是聯合行為但是我們需要證據就是說如果有發現中牌商如果集體拒絕出貨有這樣的事證這也是聯合行為的一種這你剛剛有說嘛要聯合那如果是一兩家呢因為他的物料夠他可能第一批他買的塑膠原物料夠"},{"start":4378.129,"end":4405.023,"text":"所以他暫時那這樣算不算我們的重點還是在於他們兩極不管是兩家三家或是至少兩家如果這兩家彼此之間有一定的默契有一定的合意說我們利用這個機會暫時就囤積比較多那如果沒有合意呢你找不到他合意的部分呢我告訴你他為什麼要合意因為聯合行為你必須要有合意才能夠發動調查所以這個就是他們現在人家說有花就有花"},{"start":4406.636,"end":4428.064,"text":"你這個重點是合意嘛他們只要不合意你就沒有他的皮條了那我們合意的判斷不是直接要抓到說你們有講好還是可以先根據一些間接的事證來推論間接的事證是什麼我實在對你們公平會沒有什麼信心啦好你如果不是兩方講好你說只要有一些事證"},{"start":4429.244,"end":4446.046,"text":"能夠抓出說他們有合意的狀態這樣也可以好那什麼現象譬如說市場結構是寡占譬如說業者之間彼此之間成本結構差很多但是價格卻調得一致像這種情況都是違反廠商資歷的主委我剛剛已經跟你講了嘛"},{"start":4448.342,"end":4467.228,"text":"因為他這家公司可能他當時候進的塑膠料比較多所以他可以生產的比較多然後呢他知道現在的狀況只要他晚一點晚了一個禮拜你知道那個價格就可以漲很多"},{"start":4468.097,"end":4487.828,"text":"他不用啊 他不用跟你再做合意啊所以我才會講就是說 同業之間理論上要競爭所以假設你生產東西的成本比對方低你為什麼價格要調的跟他一樣這個就是我剛剛講的所謂的間接市政主委這樣你可能不太了解市政 這樣我好高興今天他要賣什麼東西"},{"start":4492.731,"end":4500.724,"text":"如果現在所有的供跟需有落差那個價格自然就跳起來了"},{"start":4501.636,"end":4526.126,"text":"不用他自動喊價他只要耽擱一個禮拜暫時出貨那個價格就自動跳起來了你知不知道這個狀況嗎因為公跟虛有了不一樣的敲敲板價格是會自動跳起來沒錯但是我也可以想一下就是說假設我們在競爭然後我們彼此之間沒有合意我的成本比你低雖然價格同時都跳起來但是我可以不要跳那麼多"},{"start":4527.006,"end":4551.432,"text":"我就可以搶到你的生意啊那你為什麼價格都一樣我告訴你差一個兩塊一塊兩塊有什麼差如果整個都跳起來市場價都跳起來了我們不會完全一致作為合議的標準對嘛假設他的提據是差不多這個就是關鍵嘛對主委難怪你們公平會永遠都查不到永遠也沒辦法查到"},{"start":4552.492,"end":4565.741,"text":"我一直跟你說我發抖了我為什麼會同意我不用同意啊我自然價格全部都跳上來我幹嘛跟你同意然後被你公平會抓到說你們的價格一樣沒有那麼笨的吧"},{"start":4569.448,"end":4590.806,"text":"有那麼笨的嗎我就跟你講在整個供跟需有了不一樣的一個平台那當然價格就自動跳起來啦他只要晚個一個禮拜出貨價格就自然跳起來了不論說你漲了兩塊漲了三塊他都是漲他都是賺的"},{"start":4592.592,"end":4621.025,"text":"所以如果依照你們這樣的標準你永遠查不到我們不會以價格完全一模一樣作為聯合合議的依據啦那只是說我們還是要看看就是說判斷他是不是有合議當然這證據很難找但是我們會用一些間接的事證來推論其中之一就是包含他這樣做是不是理性主委其實我為什麼會用這個議題其實你們每一次都慢半拍慢拍一拍之後你要查都查不到證據"},{"start":4622.813,"end":4642.803,"text":"也查不到資料所以就算有人跟你們檢舉了因為你們說的要有人檢舉嘛你們才會去辦嘛如果沒有人檢舉你們不會去辦嘛好那現在這個整個事實狀況媒體已經爆得亂七八糟了"},{"start":4644.056,"end":4671.394,"text":"已經搞得沸沸揚揚了那到底是因為真的原物料的缺貨還是真的在裝盤商有人故意把它控管因為經濟部已經有這樣的一個聲音出來而且也有查到意識到有這個狀況所以經濟部才要全面去盤查對不對是因為這個原因嘛那你們如果沒有配合的話經濟部盤查有什麼用"},{"start":4674.336,"end":4685.77,"text":"你們要相對的 所以我剛剛所講的 我講的是原因如果依照你們這幾個原則 我跟你說你查沒有啦你絕對查不到的啦"},{"start":4686.727,"end":4710.888,"text":"我們業務單位已經有持續在跟經濟部那邊聯繫啦我們會密切配合經濟部他目前的盤整結果如果真的有所謂的聯合集體出貨拒絕出貨這個當然也是聯合行為啦這個我們會介入講什麼叫聯合拒絕出貨不會啊我又沒有拒絕出貨我只是說我用很多理由嘛晚一點我晚個四天晚個五天晚個一個禮拜"},{"start":4712.625,"end":4730.465,"text":"那請問這叫聯合拒絕出貨嗎我想這個我們在過去我們過去的個案都有處理過啦那我在這邊沒辦法給委員一個統一的標準的答案但是所有的聯合行為的這些問題我們都會在個案裡面根據我們掌握的事實主委我只是希望"},{"start":4732.045,"end":4757.391,"text":"我质询公平会 我已经质询到现在我在经济委员会已经10年了所以每一次跟公平会好像永远在鸡同鸭讲你们永远没有办法站在消费者的角度即使消费者投书了 存情了最后还是不了了之 就是查无实证"},{"start":4758.371,"end":4784.601,"text":"我今天為這麼快的一個時間經濟部已經在查了我們希望公平會要有所態度不要是被動的如果你今天用你剛剛所講的那幾個原因我給你保證你一定查不到因為有發動法現在業者很聰明他不會自己跳入到你們所講的這些"},{"start":4786.565,"end":4801.118,"text":"所謂你們判斷是不是聯合的一些樣態不會所以你們每次都查不到所以我們希望這個部分你知道嗎現在塑膠袋大家"},{"start":4802.459,"end":4820.145,"text":"過去雖然我們一直在檢縮一直在檢縮可是在檢縮到現在還是有些必須要的那這些必須要的到底要怎麼去做然後到底我們要怎麼去抑制 你知道嗎 現在一個塑膠袋多少錢"},{"start":4821.927,"end":4834.273,"text":"這個我沒有不清楚 不清楚嘛而且呢他現在轉嫁到消費者身上以前不用錢的現在要求消費者你一個要多少錢而且價格都往上提高"},{"start":4836.109,"end":4859.2,"text":"所以這整個是一個影響鏈影響鏈然後最終是誰被影響消費者我想委員關鍵我們理解我們都有積極在對市場進行了解還有跟經濟部合作所以我不希望在這個整個中東的一個問題當中最後受傷的是誰受害的是誰是消費者"},{"start":4860.56,"end":4868.591,"text":"我的關鍵在這裡因為一路下來最後他會要求消費者去買這個塑膠袋那當然消費者他需要他就要買啊"},{"start":4875.134,"end":4891.325,"text":"可是轉嫁就是在消費者身上我們不希望在整個我們政府的一個第一時間沒有辦法去控管而導致整個消費者來受害是這樣謝謝主委 拜託一下 謝謝好 謝謝陳廷輝委員 謝謝主委接下來我們請這個呂玉玲委員上台質詢 謝謝"},{"start":4911.65,"end":4919.302,"text":"謝謝召委 請工評會的代理主席我們的陳主委陳主委 謝謝"},{"start":4924.264,"end":4943.264,"text":"委員長主委我剛剛延續我們陳委員剛剛問的現在塑膠袋一個多少錢你如果有去調查你怎麼不知道多少錢如果你沒有到市長買東西你說你不知道多少錢那你有責任這調查的責任在公平會你現在把這個責任推給檢舉者去舉證"},{"start":4944.525,"end":4965.542,"text":"那就我們公平會存在的意義沒有了嘛那公平會就廢掉就好啦可以依職權調查啦現在我們到超市去買東西本來說你要提供袋子的話一個是一塊錢現在變成一個人兩塊錢了這是不是漲價你們要去調查公平會主動出擊啊不要等到大家把政經拿到你面前的時候你才說喔 是"},{"start":4967.043,"end":4984.103,"text":"那就公平化不用存在了嘛沒有 但這個議題出現我們就有去了解了解 了解也要知道事實所以所有交代一個多少錢你不知道我現在告訴你了好 我要先問我的議題啦齁 主委去年九月的時候發生了高雄市美濃"},{"start":4985.504,"end":5007.681,"text":"大峽谷這個有不肖的業者去非法的去採石殺石獲取暴利然後讓我們整個傾倒的廢土造成了整個地形跟我們的生態環境的一個破壞所以整個峽谷就形成一個很大的一個坑洞在這邊所以國土署特別為了防止這個違法的棄土"},{"start":5012.344,"end":5041.173,"text":"事件在重演所以在今年的1月1號開始就實施了營建剩餘土石方全流向的管理政策要求砂石車必須安裝GPS的系統並使用這個電子連單來取代這個紙本的這個單據希望能夠掌握到砂石車的行車的這個動向來提升管理的這個功能所以國土署在公布但是"},{"start":5041.693,"end":5066.812,"text":"太過於倉促所以造成整個業界來不及安裝GPS而且全台的土石方堆置處理廠也沒有安排好所以能量處理不足的情況之下供需失衡所以導致了大量的土方在短時間內沒有辦法去消化讓土方的清運成本暴增"},{"start":5068.103,"end":5084.03,"text":"暴增所以根據我們營造業跟建設業他們的估計現在的每立方公尺的土方的這個清理的費用有分北中南北部原來是1800的現在漲到4500中部是800塊的漲到3000元南部的話是280元漲到2000元這幅度大概三到六倍所以請問 主委"},{"start":5095.655,"end":5122.27,"text":"你認為這一波的土方之亂這土方的資源堆置處理業者有沒有趁這個情形而去聯合哄抬價格的這個嫌疑這個就是我們在跟國土署在開會協商的過程當中本會負責就是有沒有聯合哄抬價格那我們在事情一出現以後我們就積極的到市場去了解這個價格的狀況初步的了解是目前的價格並沒有出現一致"},{"start":5122.91,"end":5150.572,"text":"所以剛剛本席把這資料呈現在你前面你說也沒有這漲了三五倍是很正常的委員講的是價格提高幾倍但是我們看的是同業之間的價格有沒有漲得一樣聯合啊所以同業價格是一樣啊假設一個三千塊一個兩千五北中南為什麼價格北中南不一樣主委你有去調查你請教你為什麼不一樣北中南請教你跟這個營運的成本都有關係啊"},{"start":5151.332,"end":5176.201,"text":"為什麼有營業成本不一樣當然政府改成GPS改成電子大家都裝了GPS啊還有什麼不一樣為什麼價格不一樣你有去調查你應該知道這個就跟每個收購方的它的經營的成本還有所涉及到的相關的一樣是土石啊一樣是安置處理廠堆置啊哪裡不一樣為什麼價格不一樣同樣的土石它有不同的價值為什麼它有不同的回收價值為什麼所以價格也可能不一樣"},{"start":5176.641,"end":5185.038,"text":"一樣是泥土啊廢土啊有些土石回來以後可以重新再利用對啊阿有些土石是填海而已主委所以你不了解吧"},{"start":5186.061,"end":5215.601,"text":"你有去調查 我要你了解的為什麼就是距離也是問題啊有的站得比較遠為什麼北部會比較貴因為北部的話都市區域嘛 沒有堆置這個處理廠所以會站得比較遙遠的那個安置這個堆置這個廢土的地方所以距離遠 價格就高嘛南部的話 因為空曠的地方比較多堆置的場所 只要合法的地方會比較容易取得所以這距離的問題 價格就不一樣所以 主委"},{"start":5216.561,"end":5245.364,"text":"我們不要每次都要等到人家檢舉你們才來調查調查的話你就自圓其說自己一套好像不死人間煙火跟民眾的思想思維軌道都不一樣我們民眾大家都認為是空台我們委員接到了很多的陳情報章雜誌登出來了你還說沒有為什麼你們的思維都不一樣呢今天不管是經濟部也好包括著我們的國土署都新聞叫你調查了"},{"start":5246.243,"end":5270.618,"text":"我們跟國安署有開會過我在這地方還是要釐清一件事情我公平會從來沒說價格沒有哄抬我公平會強調的是說你的哄抬是不是聯合的哄抬所以我們的執法重點在於聯合行為的調查你聯合要怎麼樣我們不能去介入價格的合理性價格的合理性我們這個在分工商我們是針對聯合哄抬這部分"},{"start":5272.116,"end":5294.078,"text":"所以我們並沒有說你們公平會總是有一套自圓其說跟我們廣大的民眾的想法都不一樣所以我要請你們去調查不要等到人家檢舉很多事情市場上的出來了包裝雜誌也登出來了鬧轟轟的時候你們可以主動出局嗎你們責任在哪裡我們已經在進行了解跟調查當中了"},{"start":5294.318,"end":5309.391,"text":"所以我們有跟郭杜池在配合調查這麼久現在結果呢?我剛剛跟委員講過初步我們發現了解結果並沒有價格一致的情況所以我告訴你北中南不一樣的情形就是沒有辦法一致會有其他的因素嗎?有沒有聯合一致"},{"start":5310.371,"end":5333.74,"text":"運輸成本也會考慮本席今天會這麼氣憤的是因為你們都不處理我們地方的營造商已經因為這車輛價格再運的土方的價格飆漲的情況之下他沒辦法經營下去他跟政府標到一個標案他願意自動解約被罰幾百萬他也沒辦法再運這個土方"},{"start":5335.121,"end":5346.492,"text":"這個情形都已經發生了 你要到多嚴重的情況之下你才說沒有聯合的情況專科GPS為什麼價格飆漲到三至五倍呢這個請你們嚴格去查一下再來我再問一下"},{"start":5347.898,"end":5364.978,"text":"就是不實的廣告也是我們公平會的業務之一對不對不實的廣告就是頭尾都不一樣不實的廣告就是有欺騙嘛引導消費者不了解而去購買到不一樣的或去消費到不一樣的東西對不對"},{"start":5366.3,"end":5390.787,"text":"是不是你們的業務是啊不實廣告所以本席在這邊要請教一下那因為我們公平會對於商品的標示跟價格的訊息跟各種的這個宣傳內容都有浮誇不實的情況之下違法情形之下我們公平會都會來處理是屬於我們的業務範圍那本席在這邊想請教如果一部影片"},{"start":5391.787,"end":5404.873,"text":"前導片與正片嚴重的出入不一樣的話算不算不死廣告我想這個案子因為最近才剛出來是不是允許我先問你我的問題先回答前導片跟正片如果完全不一樣連演員都不一樣"},{"start":5413.057,"end":5430.673,"text":"針對這個問題我兩點做一下說明第一點就是說前導片跟電影本身算不算是個別前導片算不算廣告後面的電影本身是內容還是說前導片本身實質上是整個影片的一部分這個我們後續會去了解一下到底是怎麼情況那即使前導片是具有廣告的性質"},{"start":5431.634,"end":5450.649,"text":"那剛剛委員有講到廣告是會誤導消費者去做出消費的決定那接下來問題就是說那前導片是怎麼樣去誤導消費者去相信他要去看這部影片這個問題的調查就會涉及到很多觀眾的主觀上的評價也許在前導片裡面我想要看到這個他要看到那個每個人是不一樣的這個我們都需要進一步去了解"},{"start":5451.949,"end":5474.578,"text":"請聽我 你都沒有注意聽我發問的問題我是告訴你前導片跟正片所有的劇情 角色 內容 演員都不一樣這有沒有算不實不一樣啊就是剛剛我跟委員講的嘛是不是這個不是觀眾的主觀意思欸你的劇情 你的演員前導片跟正片都不一樣還要怎麼樣叫主導意思啊"},{"start":5475.018,"end":5488.452,"text":"據我們初步的了解 前導片有時候是一個創造氛圍所以是不是一定前導片裡面所談的一定會在後續的影片中出現這個就是我們要去盡力不忍前導片告訴你澳洲有劉德華演結果正片裡面沒有劉德華 算不算不死"},{"start":5489.776,"end":5508.034,"text":"呃 這個我們要去了解 因為前導片是不是沒有 前導片是不是一定百分之百完全全部落入到後面的影片當中這個可能要請問相關業者的了解才知道主委 你好像真的是跟我們民眾的思維不太一樣喔前導片就屬於是個預告片"},{"start":5508.915,"end":5535.805,"text":"預告我現在的正片的內容最精華的再要出來給民眾看民眾覺得有吸引他他就會來這個消費會到戲院去看正片這個是這樣子的叫預告片怎麼可以這個預告片 前導片跟正片不一樣你還無法判斷我真的不曉得主委你的思維是怎樣我想這一點我們會後我們會去進一步了解到底這兩者之間的關係是什麼好 那我們現在"},{"start":5537.125,"end":5560.446,"text":"你現在講到這邊 我就告訴你 給你調查比較正確的方向就是有一部影片 叫《凌日攻擊》我們不講它的內容有沒有偏頗或者意識形態我們以戲劇的角色跟情節有沒有缺乏邏輯性跟合理性在網路上 已經很多很多的民眾都說批評它這個都不死 演員都不一樣我強調再強調 演員不一樣"},{"start":5564.269,"end":5589.104,"text":"劇情內容的角色也不一樣所以我們希望我們諸位在這個片子裡面你一定要給廣大的消費者給個一正四聽啦如果是這樣子的片子喔未來很多影片都會出來前導片就叫做預告片希望諸位你們都要主動出擊我們真的很用心良苦一再一再這麼講每次大家為什麼執行公平會的時候沒有人要來執行"},{"start":5590.97,"end":5603.17,"text":"真的 就像陳維也講的 雞同鴨講我們跟你講的那個對焦 那個軌道好像都不一樣啊我們民間生活不死人間煙火民眾的反應跟你的反應會不一樣啊"},{"start":5604.629,"end":5632.866,"text":"請公平會把你們責任擔當拿出來好不好不要從外民眾來舉證你才去查證不管是我們的行政部門查證之後的話你才做事證實事了你才是事你們責任擔當都沒有請公平會自己要加油一點我們會回歸去了解教長好 謝謝劉營委員請公平會主動出席從天龍國落入凡間好不好"},{"start":5634.175,"end":5644.473,"text":"好 接下來我們請這個張家俊委員質詢主席我想請代理主委來請代理主委"},{"start":5650.476,"end":5665.582,"text":"陳主委 委員長那現在中東戰火未歇而且不曉得還要再打多久那連帶影響國內物價現在菜市場一斤透明的塑膠袋已經從20元漲到25元這件事情陳主委知道嗎我知道"},{"start":5671.184,"end":5687.819,"text":"那你現在有什麼因應的辦法呢我們已經有進入初步先去了解一下整個這個市場的狀況包含塑膠袋的類型價格等等各方面資訊那因為我也知道現在經濟部已經在做市場全面的盤整我現在就問你你不要講經濟部我現在就問你公平會"},{"start":5691.682,"end":5718.017,"text":"現在有一些都缺貨了那代理主委既然有注意到你們有去主動調查說是不是有惡意囤積或者是有哄抬物價的這個監督機制呢從公平會角度來看如果是聯合的惡意拒絕出貨這個就是構成聯合性貨你有去查嗎我們現在正在調查我現在就嚴重懷疑說公平會你是人手不足嗎我們不管問你什麼你都是被動的都沒有任何事是值得你主動去調查嗎"},{"start":5719.258,"end":5740.053,"text":"沒有 這個像這個塑膠我們就主動有去調查只是因為現在經濟部所以你們現在已經主動在調查我主動在瞭解那你們現在有任何調查的跡象或結果嗎現在還在瞭解跟調查當中就像剛剛跟大家講我們調查的重點還是在於這個有沒有聯合拒絕出貨這個需要有點時間來蒐集是不是有這樣的事證我的意思是說如果你"},{"start":5740.914,"end":5767.177,"text":"主動調查可能還要再加上一些積極度因為如果你沒有迅速的掌握狀況的話等你調查完成這個事情搞不好也已經結束了船過水無痕所以我也希望說陳主委我想每一個委員都對你充滿期待希望說公平會能夠扮演好公平會存在的意義而不是一個只是好像買保險的單位"},{"start":5768.658,"end":5789.958,"text":"就是有也可以沒有也可以 你知道嗎所以我現在再提醒一下諸位請問有注意到說日本的衛生紙之前就有因為民眾在網路上PO文然後引發恐慌那本席擔心類似的事件假設發生在台灣公平會有沒有什麼對策呢"},{"start":5791.417,"end":5820.517,"text":"衛生紙如果有聯合烘台價格當然這是公平會要去調查跟了解的那這是不是有假設這有沒有涉及不實的這個烘台價格啊烘台價格就是烘台價格但如果他有不實我不曉得什麼叫不實的所以你的意思是說這不歸公平會管沒有沒有我剛講過聯合烘台聯合定價這個當然是公平會要管那不實廣告是不實廣告所以就是你的意思是說像這種引發恐慌的事情呢"},{"start":5821.943,"end":5838.319,"text":"不歸公平會管是這個意思嗎?就是說衛生紙搶扣啊沒有衛生紙啦這都不歸你管沒有 引發恐慌如果是基於業者集體之間的一種杯葛或是拒絕從事教育特別囤貨聯合起來做的話這當然是公平會要處理的聯合問題那你有密切在觀察這個事情嗎?我們都隨時都有在觀察這關民生物資我們平常都會注意到那個價格的波動"},{"start":5846.807,"end":5869.344,"text":"對啊其實我也還蠻擔心公平會的不管問你們什麼你們感覺都好像在另一個平行世界裡面就是沒有辦法理解我們在跟你溝通的一些內容那我再問就是前年Uber宣布要以9.5億美元收購Full Panda台灣的業務那時候公平會耗時了200"},{"start":5873.428,"end":5892.984,"text":"25天那最後以防止壟斷唯有禁止了雙方結合結果這個禮拜呢換成東南亞的外送龍頭Grab要以6億收購Full Panda那從公平會專業的角度來看這兩起收購案相同與不相同之處在哪裡呢"},{"start":5893.504,"end":5903.916,"text":"因為這個案子還沒送進本會所以我現在初步的了解就是說有什麼一樣跟不一樣最大的不一樣是上個案子如果結合完成以後事實上就會高達九成"},{"start":5904.929,"end":5932.067,"text":"那這個案子完成結合以後還是維持兩家大的外送平台存在所以這是它最大的在市場結構上的不同如果真的要去看它的不同的地方的話是但是呢本席要提醒公平會注意一個關鍵背景Uber早在2018就將東南亞的業務賣給了Grab然後換取了一定比例的持股我想可能主委我知道你知道嘛"},{"start":5933.007,"end":5948.641,"text":"你清楚的話那你覺得說直到今天Uber能持有Grab約13%的股份是最大的股東喔換句話說Uber雖然沒有親自收購成功但是卻由他持股的公司來買"},{"start":5949.502,"end":5964.531,"text":"而且這個持股公司他還是最大的股東我並沒有說有任何預設的立場我只是希望說那公平會這一次會怎麼樣判定Grab的營業獨立性然後會考量這層關係嗎"},{"start":5966.432,"end":5991.116,"text":"我想分析的架構大概跟上次那個案子那個整個法律的架構是一樣的那這個案子我想剛剛委員所談到的那個持股的部分這個也是我們後續在審查會去判斷的不過附帶跟委員講一下這個13%是他持股但是持股對公司的控制跟影響因為他持股的類型不太一樣我現在只是在提醒你所以你有在考量這一層關係就非常好"},{"start":5991.696,"end":5998.263,"text":"那我們再深入看Grab跟Uber 2018那次交易當時新加坡的這個競爭與消費委員會就對他們的交易案重罰了1300萬的新幣那兩家公司呢"},{"start":6007.012,"end":6015.965,"text":"成為利益共同體導致競爭誘因消失了那新加坡隨即出現了運費上漲獎勵縮水的狀況那所以呢我也希望說公平會要審慎考察那"},{"start":6023.014,"end":6048.348,"text":"當然我不是有任何預設立場我希望公平會在整個審查的過程當中要廣納各界的意見設想各種可能必須針對消費者的權益跟市場的結構做出最有利的決定請教主委能做到嗎我想這個剛剛委員提到這一點都是我們在審查過程會去注意到了就跟如同上一次的案子一樣我們一定會多聽各方面的意見"},{"start":6049.639,"end":6072.677,"text":"那現在本席擔心的就是說假設未來Foodpanda真的被Grab收購了你們也同意了他的收購哪一天Grab在台灣也採取相同的模式宣布這個退出台灣市場然後把業務交給Uber那那個時候台灣的外送市場不就徹底失去了競爭只剩下一家獨大公平會有考慮過這個可能性嗎"},{"start":6074.238,"end":6095.764,"text":"如果這個可能性發生 那就變成是回到兩家變一家的情況嗎是啊 所以這是一個簡單的經濟邏輯如果兩個競爭對手他背後的大股東其實是重疊的那他們在市場上就不會有強烈的動力去彼此競爭他們不需要聯合漲價喔他們只需要聯合不促銷 不折扣"},{"start":6096.704,"end":6123.691,"text":"是不是無法可乏這個就回到委員剛剛關切那個13%的問題那個13%的控制有沒有辦法強到讓對方完全亦步亦趨配合他的作為所以我就想請主委一定要針對這種有可能隱性的聯合行為做密切的觀察那最後提醒主委就是根據資策會的統計2025年曾使用外送服務的消費者比例"},{"start":6124.631,"end":6149.216,"text":"大概是有上千萬人在使用這個外送服務那公平會作為市場的守護者那本席也期許你們的決定可以做到店家有生意消費者權益有保護然後平台能夠維持競爭的多元局面有信心嗎委員關鍵問題都是我們在審查裡面會特別注意的好 加油謝謝"},{"start":6152.247,"end":6158.989,"text":"好 那謝謝張家軍委員的質詢 謝謝主委接下來我們請鄭天才委員質詢好 謝謝趙偉有請主委 有請陳主委"},{"start":6188.258,"end":6206.782,"text":"這個有關今天的報告裡面你們的報告特別提到執行公平教育法以多層次傳銷管理法這裡面你們提到114年總共這個受理調查專案的3820件"},{"start":6209.366,"end":6235.119,"text":"然後結案的包含上年底未結的案件加起來是3978件這麼多的案件裡面經過行政處分的169件這比例不算高啦這個金額6106萬元比例不算高當然要看案情整個受理的狀況"},{"start":6237.349,"end":6260.376,"text":"我們看這個我一再強調的是公平教育法25條事業亦不得為其他足以影響教育志氣之欺妄或顯示公平之行為尤其是這個欺妄這個部分在你的報告裡面整個報告裡面有提到這個"},{"start":6262.062,"end":6283.7,"text":"你們處分的類型,好幾種類型,件數好像是16件吧那跟七網行為,我只列了這個,這是你們的報告裡面跟七網行為有關的就兩件而已,只有兩件而已那因為為什麼要去強調這個部分呢"},{"start":6287.23,"end":6294.295,"text":"我們看這個警政署的統計通報到114年9月17號投資詐欺被害1.9萬人佔超過3乘5這麼多的人數以及比例投資詐欺的部分35.14"},{"start":6313.561,"end":6318.084,"text":"比例35.14%如果加上假網路拍賣也是買賣買東西13.10%然後一般購物我也稱買賣一般購物的詐欺也是跟這個交易有關係8.57%"},{"start":6337.937,"end":6355.948,"text":"這個比例整個加起來三種類型加起來的話56.81%這個比例是相當高的所以這個回過頭來要請公平會這個3978件的結案件裡面跟欺網行為或是投資詐騙"},{"start":6368.003,"end":6395.92,"text":"有關的到底是哪些有多少件而這些多少件裡面是己證不足呢還是什麼原因因素所以就沒有被處罰這個部分自己回去去檢視了如果現在有之外當然可以答覆我先簡單跟委員說明一下有關詐騙的部分這個在行政院我們是有一些分工"},{"start":6396.62,"end":6419.322,"text":"所以剛剛委員談到這些詐騙的行為很多都是刑事的詐欺案那這些部分可能就是由法務部那邊處理所以公平會對於詐騙的部分我們大概是試詐跟阻詐那阻詐的部分我們其實主要還是在針對譬如說用不實廣告的方式來誤導消費者那這部分我們就會積極的解讀那另外剛剛委員談到的就是他那個欺網的情態是"},{"start":6420.342,"end":6448.082,"text":"就是跟公益團體跟政府部門去掛名其實是沒有那這類型案子我們是有處理過那委員所關切大部分的這個投資詐騙等等大部分的案子都是屬於就是不是公平會在處理的案子這樣那個這是公平會非常多次的回覆的回應都是這樣認為只要涉及到刑事案件就是"},{"start":6449.198,"end":6477.98,"text":"就是法務部這是錯的這是錯的因為它畢竟它是交易所以我才會說如果你認為你按照現行的法例你管不到那就要修法我多次提到要修法要以時計進畢竟這個詐騙案件多因為現在你說法務部靠誰呢法務部就只有靠警政署"},{"start":6478.871,"end":6506.793,"text":"警察那已經是罪莫端了已經被騙了所以這個部分再怎麼前面的防範對不對前面的防範最重要那已經被騙了錢已經被騙了已經到警政署已經是被騙了當然還有很多警察都前面就前面阻止被詐騙也做了不少"},{"start":6508.148,"end":6514.922,"text":"也做了不少媒体都有报道所以这个怎么样互相合作共同的来去"},{"start":6517.703,"end":6546.204,"text":"減少這些被詐騙 尤其是跟這個交易有關的 跟教育有關的部分這個我還是要勉勵 還是要拜託啦 拜託這個公平會我想在避免這一塊 避免這一塊我們其實也都積極在做剛剛跟委員報告過 市詐也是我們的任務之一啦所以我們會帶我們業館的這個相關的事業裡面我們去宣導不要被網路上這些虛假的消息所誤導"},{"start":6547.265,"end":6574.714,"text":"是所以這部分我們實際上也在做因為基本上我剛列舉的這些像投資就是交易所以這個部分你要到法務部那個是最後已經最後了已經被騙了那前面怎麼樣能夠去防範那更重要所以這個部分共同的這個不同的機關大家一起來努力來去減少真的是真的是這是我們"},{"start":6575.774,"end":6582.754,"text":"目前台灣最重要的一個部分之一了好不好好我們接下來"},{"start":6584.451,"end":6609.587,"text":"在你的報告裡面也有提到運作本會防治人為操縱物價專案小組裡面有對農畜儀產品小麥、麵粉、黃豆、沙油、桶裝瓦斯等等這些你們去做這樣相關的這些民生物資價格及市場變化進行監測這個部分你們都在進行了"},{"start":6610.827,"end":6626.299,"text":"我想要你也請公平會議去了解我們剛有提到統裝瓦斯我看全國家用統裝瓦斯的軍價查報的軍價這個從去年2025年10月之後一直往上"},{"start":6636.438,"end":6655.104,"text":"一直往上,2025年10月之後一直往上到2026年1月還要繼續往上所以這個部分也去了解一下到底是怎麼樣的因素因為那時候還沒有中東的戰爭"},{"start":6659.214,"end":6683.702,"text":"對不對2025年10月還沒有這個戰爭所以不是因為這個油的問題也不是因為這些相關的這些跟瓦斯有關的那個部分所以這個部分是是需要去了解好不好跟委員報告一下我們有觀察到這樣的趨勢事實上業務單位都持續密切在注意當中那如果有聯合烘台聯合定價我們會去積極的進入調查"},{"start":6685.262,"end":6699.416,"text":"好 好 加油因為這個調高偏遠地區會更高偏遠地區會更高好 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員謝謝主委我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":6727.5,"end":6743.327,"text":"我們現在是不小心為了進行的情況而出席的,幾個都不知道要怎麼做,拿藥給小朋友去接受,外人呢?新委員會出席嗎?對,我們就請新委員出席,因為新委員應該今天在議會會有說明,但是院長是不信任。"},{"start":6758.531,"end":6777.066,"text":"其他列行的單位不可能要這麼多人這樣請問請問是要包含這麼多人因為一般應該都是首席喔是喔是喔但不是說在那邊開會的人因為他才能夠知道整個過程"},{"start":7061.044,"end":7061.125,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":7142.919,"end":7143.383,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":7281.476,"end":7310.503,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7325.302,"end":7328.986,"text":"好 繼續開會 接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員質詢主席 在場委員先進 列席的政府局長 市長 官員 會長 工作夥伴記者媒體女士先生 那麼有請陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":7357.522,"end":7376.976,"text":"主委好最近你常常被問到公平會就是要問到說Grab要收購台灣的Hupenda請問一下你知道嗎這個Hupenda的最大股東是Uber嗎我知道他雖然沒有照過一半但是如果Grab跟Uber之間存在著交叉持股那算不算Uber繞道來併購這個Hupenda呢"},{"start":7377.276,"end":7406.09,"text":"所以重點還是在於他掌握的那個13.5的股權是能夠影響到Grab什麼程度是所以強調的是實質的控制力實質控制力對 這個我們會在審查當中注意好但是除了這個之後我們關心的又是下一個就是AI聊天機器人竟然未來可能投放廣告你看媒體報導的很大Chap GPT拓財源要推廣告服務我就很好奇啦Chap GPT要怎麼推廣告服務呢我記得28年前有一個電影叫楚門的世界諸位有沒有看過我有看過"},{"start":7406.83,"end":7433.146,"text":"這裡面的電影呢只有一個人是不知情的其他都是演員對不對包括演他太太的還會在觀眾收看這個直播這個情境實境節目的時候呢會看到他推銷廣告是不是這樣子是好那我們消費者看電影的人看楚門世界的人都知道那個是一個廣告但是只有看的只有楚門自己不知道但是現在的ChipGP電影在今年2月開始試著投放我們來看一下"},{"start":7433.959,"end":7451.553,"text":"我們對這種事情有沒有管制網紅的業配有管制譬如說我這個主委有沒有看過我的直播沒有是正常的因為我的直播實在沒有很多人看連小咖的網紅都稱不上但是你們公評會有對於見證廣告的規範做有沒有要求"},{"start":7452.553,"end":7477.114,"text":"見證型的嘛,你們有做過嗎?因為我每次直播都吃播,我立法院附近買了小吃,邊吃邊說這個好不好吃,這個怎麼樣,立法三寶啊那我是不是專業人士,我至少吃,還算有研究嘛對不對那我有沒有跟他有利益的關係的接入?要啊,如果這個東西要送我的,請他幫我講好話幫他講好話,我要知道說這個鄉親送我這個很好吃的這個什麼米,這個蠻好吃的我們在直播可不可以這樣做?"},{"start":7478.151,"end":7499.392,"text":"可以嘛就是符合這個我們就符合這個嘛所以公民會會審查對不對會 如果這符合這個好啦那現在如果AI用更隱秘更針對性的方式投放我們要看譬如說一般民眾他唱AI去幹嘛資料查詢嘛像去查楚門的世界或者聊天嘛跟聊天機的人講話甚至用它來製作一些影音那"},{"start":7500.679,"end":7528.679,"text":"閱聽者使用者他心裡是怎麼想他說AI至少是中立客觀的對不對他提供了給我的資訊至少是他掌握的資訊雖然有人說深層是AI是一本正經的胡說八道但是至少他應該只是自己胡說八道而已他不會幫人家刻意的去引導幫業主企業主去影響我現在AI的深層是內容如果有廣告組有企業主要求他去做廣告有沒有目前對他的強制介入或標示的規定"},{"start":7529.019,"end":7548.251,"text":"那我也問的問題涉及到兩個問題第一個就是說從公平會執法機關的角度來看我們如何去確認這個廣告是AI做的這個是一個不是 他的意思說你AI接受我的廣告之後你在AI生成的內容上幫閱聽大眾提供更多我要請你提供的資訊嘛"},{"start":7549.051,"end":7559.468,"text":"譬如問他說這個台灣哪裏的紅豆最好吃結果我們萬丹農會有跟AI說我跟你買個廣告你第一個就說屏東萬丹的紅豆最好吃"},{"start":7560.66,"end":7588.965,"text":"可不可以所以我剛剛談的就是說確認AI的意思就是說因為廣告到我們這邊來我們第一次看到的就是廣告那我們要確認說這個廣告是人播的AI提供的真實內容他不會說這是廣告因為你問他嘛所以我們要問的說這個以後會不會產生說只要有大的企業他對這些好往下看這三家最大的真實是AI的平台我說我給你下廣告請你們機器人在回答問題的時候多講我的好話可不可以"},{"start":7589.878,"end":7608.678,"text":"但如果說背後是有人在做這樣的操作的話那當然就是他對AI的訓練就是操作啊所以這個有可能會跟我們的見證廣告是有關係所以這個時候你們去查有沒有企業對這三大平台投放廣告請他們訓練他們的機器人AI機器人要多說他的好話那你們要去查他們對價關係你查得到嗎"},{"start":7610.56,"end":7637.992,"text":"我跟委員報告一下因為現在我們從最近開始我們在網路的這個廣告的監控上我們已經加入AI的監測你也用AI來監測嘛不是AI監測是委託我們在監測我們是外包給外面的機關來幫我們做監測用魔法對付魔法對對對然後我們有特別要求他必須要針對AI這件事情來是所以我要告訴你說這三大平台如果開始接受業主投放廣告的時候我們問AI的問題可能背後你就要就查清楚他有沒有這個問題尤其這個平台如果是寡戰呢"},{"start":7638.712,"end":7664.229,"text":"他的演算法是黑箱呢譬如說科技巨頭他掌握這三大平台我中小店家沒有地方可以投放廣告因為只有你們三個AI嘛所以我的廣告溢價權就一面倒嘛你說我要投放廣告多少錢就多少錢我要推銷萬丹的紅豆你說這個要兩百萬我拿不出兩百萬我就不能推銷萬丹的紅豆 是不是這樣子是 我們會在公平法的架構還有在處理原則裡面去做進行調查好 那再往下看那其實還有一個叫LINE"},{"start":7665.219,"end":7691.79,"text":"LINE其實也不過是一個 你會說聊天軟體嗎可是你知道它台灣的一個滲透率多少嗎99.7%耶 是所有最高的耶你可以再增加什麼它是台灣的超級平台什麼時候呢 它可以幫你做社交聯絡還可以貼圖禮物 還有金融服務還有電子支付 LINE Pay還有商業應用 還有影音漫畫還有甚至連視訊醫療現在衛福部建立的跨醫生視訊醫療如果你派到好愛工作了兩年"},{"start":7692.31,"end":7717.263,"text":"可是你這時候要回來看醫生 或者說你慢性病處房間三個月到期了你可以怎麼辦 你可以在海外利用當地的聯網 然後透過LINE然後連接中華電信 然後去跟台灣的醫院看病拿藥LINE很厲害耶 是不是這樣可是我們有辦法避開嗎 現在你可以避開生活中 避開LINE嗎你就算避得開 你周邊的人避不開啊那它是不是構成了壓倒性的優勢 是不是構成了獨佔"},{"start":7719.568,"end":7749.268,"text":"我想剛剛委員講的是正確就是社交至少在這個生態系當中當然LINE是以它的社交這個平台作為一個支點然後延伸到生態系各部分不過我們要注意的就是說在這樣的生態系當中LINE在不同的服務當中的市場力量是不一樣不是的就是因為它在每個個別的市場你都很難針對這個來說它沒有一個壟斷或壓倒性但是你在生活中LINE已經幾乎無所不包了我要用戶最多轉換的成本很高你現在叫我不要用LINE用別的我還受不了"},{"start":7749.688,"end":7774.874,"text":"還有他掌握了隱私資訊工程會要去想所以我們會看看是不是他利用這個社交聯絡的力量去做一個槓桿去把力量延伸到其他各位我們另外一個叫有線電視播放系統其實我們過去台灣為什麼有線電視的地方系統台他是把它當作準公用事業因為跟這個很像LINE的資訊流是不是要靠網路基礎設施政府提供嘛LINE有建制嗎沒有啊金流跟店家個人還有金融體系的金流"},{"start":7775.454,"end":7795.446,"text":"這也是我們政府的資訊網絡去提供的啊那政府在有限電視播放系統類似它的情況之下政府去進入管理喔 介入喔所以我們有限系統的執照是什麼進入政府特許的嘛因為它具有準公用事業的性質我們往下看所以公平教育委員會目前你是對不公平競爭對廣告不實你當個裁判吹哨對不對"},{"start":7796.286,"end":7817.98,"text":"但是未來如果有哪一個類似像LINE這樣的超級平台他有壓倒性的優勢他能掌握絕大多數人的隱私數據他還發展多元的業務公平的解放是什麼你還能純粹在那個裁判的角度來吹哨還是必須要為了確保這個公平競爭類似像高鐵的模式政府要不要入股來協助他的公司治理"},{"start":7819.051,"end":7837.628,"text":"我想委員提的這些問題都很前瞻啦但是這個可能在很多面向是跟公平會目前現在的執掌是不太符合的你目前還是裁判吹哨啊我們是事後的一個監管組我了解所以當你在監管這些之後事後監管你發現他有這個趨勢的時候其實公平會不只要吹哨做判決"},{"start":7838.684,"end":7862.855,"text":"還要吹哨做市警要告訴政府 告訴社會如果深層式AI它可以接受大企業投放廣告影響到它深層的內容來給使用者的話那公平會要趕快的去了解有沒有能力用你的魔法來對付它的魔法好不好是 是 這個我們持續再精進好 那最後一個是問了一下人家都問也不能不問"},{"start":7863.655,"end":7868.67,"text":"目前通貨商說上游不供貨 诶 諸位啊 這會不會有藉機囤貨 烘台的可能啊"},{"start":7869.209,"end":7896.833,"text":"因為像刑法251條這是法務部的執照公平教育法當然如果囤積漲貨這個東西如果說有聯合壟斷的情形當然我們公平法也可以介入這個所謂價格的波動當然25條影響教育秩序在過去我們用這個條文處理物價的問題大部分都是在一個緊急狀態緊急狀態我們會就是事關民生重大的產品所以我今天提供這個機會就是說要分清楚"},{"start":7897.293,"end":7913.167,"text":"如果是延後出貨 那個囤貨過於烘台 那是屬於刑法251 法務部去管那如果他透過聯合行為 立即的造成明顯的提高那才用到公交法的25條 有不一樣的分工那給你一個機會跟他說明 最後"},{"start":7913.988,"end":7930.458,"text":"署章 希望你嚴審這個併購案保護我們的外送員跟所有用戶的權益好不好是 這個一定我們會強行檢查好 那另外呢是不是要比照你們的見證廣告的規範趕快去想要訂出深層式誒 誠又寫錯了深層式AI廣告的法規好不好"},{"start":7931.098,"end":7959.732,"text":"這個我們會後再進行一個月內是不是可以就LINE是不是有具有壓倒性的優勢這個描述提出你們的書面報告讓我們知道在你們的公平會的眼中這個市場中LINE是不是個超級平台也具有壓倒性的優勢這個沒有問題好謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝鍾嘉斌委員前瞻性的質詢我覺得公平會要跟上這個樣子的科技的速度好接下來的話呢我們請謝一鋒委員質詢"},{"start":7969.755,"end":7973.89,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要請公平會的代理主委陳主委"},{"start":7982.087,"end":7992.27,"text":"陳主委早大家都問到了就是Grab的問題因為Uber有13.05還是13.05的股權當然從股權的角度來看它也沒有到整個完全擁有"},{"start":8003.459,"end":8026.343,"text":"那但是為什麼大家在討論他現在只有宣布而已我相信也還沒送你們公平會吧還沒還沒還沒送嘛對不對可是未來會不會他未來如果真的就是說要實施併購的時候會不會送公平會需不需要根據什麼法律目前的情況看起來是一定要送"},{"start":8027.079,"end":8040.412,"text":"因為市佔率市佔率 對他們兩家加起來市佔率多少沒有 依照我們公平法的規定目前市佔率只要超過一定門檻就一定要進回來審查那目前這個Food PandaFood Panda已經超過了Food Panda超過了對對對"},{"start":8042.23,"end":8066.296,"text":"他已經超過四分之一了市佔率他已經超過四分之一了所以這個案子如果他們真的要進行購併的話一定要送到公平會來所以未來他一定要送公平會來審理那你公平會怎麼審查呢怎麼樣子來審查哪一條法律來確保我們消費者不會喪失選擇權嗎因為有可能如果Uber"},{"start":8067.336,"end":8084.897,"text":"你也知道嘛過去曾經Uber也想要併購Foodpanda結果沒有成功嘛那時候大家擔心的就是消費者喪失選擇權以及有可能導致的就是說聯合的這個外送的費用的問題那這要怎麼處理"},{"start":8086.058,"end":8113.384,"text":"這個我想跟我們上一個案子的整個的分析的架構是一樣的那剛剛委員提到的問題其實都是我們會審查的我們會去觀察結合以後那個市場結構的改變會不會導致這個結合後的事業有能力去漲價把價格抬得很高那當然結合以後會不會讓兩大平台更有機會去進行聯合所以剛剛委員關切的議題其實都是我們審查的時候會去注意對我是說因為畢竟過去Uber就已經要賓購Fupenda那再加上現在Grab"},{"start":8114.784,"end":8138.211,"text":"但是你也要必須要考慮喔因為現在他不是用Uber去併購福盆島嗎他是用Grab那Grab他的行為模式以及他的這個機制是不一樣的喔是不是我看到他是他們的定價我在新加坡的時候有用過Grab"},{"start":8138.911,"end":8156.897,"text":"他們的定價會即便是相同的距離也有可能是不同的價格他們根據的是GeoHash這樣子的系統然後把每一個地區變成一個小區塊然後按照小區塊的供需的這個模式來決定他定價的方式"},{"start":8157.557,"end":8175.162,"text":"謝謝委員提醒像這種比較特殊的定價模式我們在分析過程裡面會納入考慮特別是在於結合以後這個事業它有沒有能力任意去漲價這個地方定價的模式還有過去所造成的它也許不是在就是說抽成上面或者是什麼"},{"start":8175.762,"end":8203.613,"text":"可是他運用的反而是一個APP他計算的方式以及他們演算時候所產生的這樣子的一個計價方式那你怎麼樣子去進行你們現在公平會裡面有沒有相關的專業可以去進行這個審查以及未來公平會怎麼樣子在審查的過程當中藉由會不會需要勞動部"},{"start":8205.814,"end":8229.376,"text":"或者是其他部會共同來聯合審查然後來確保我們外送就是外送員的相關的權利呢這個案子因為備受矚目所以我們一定會廣增各方面的意見包含主管機關還包含業者包含消費者團體等等我們會綜合考慮那有一些技術面的東西我們可能更由不排除我們可能必須要專家學者的協調"},{"start":8230.016,"end":8259.379,"text":"這已經是更技術面了它不是從就是說契約上面來講這個外送員的就是說聯合的這個問題那它用不同的演算的方式會不會造成就是說變相的我們消費者就喪失了選擇權然後呢變相的我們的外送費用就增加了以及我們的外送員的勞動權益就受損了"},{"start":8259.639,"end":8280.006,"text":"是不是等案子送進來以後我們在分析過程當中委員所關切這個問題我們都會把它納入考慮當然剛剛如同我剛剛所講的有些技術性的問題我們是必須要依賴外面的協助所以像學者專家這個我們都會爭議所以你們要技術人員的協助嘛對不對有些比較技術性像數位演算法這些東西也許可能要一些專家學者來提供一些意見"},{"start":8280.626,"end":8304.345,"text":"好 還有另外一個問題就是如果Fupenda就是由我們所有消費者的這些消費行為跟金流的數據那未來GREP它不是在台灣而它是在一個就是境外在台灣是沒有實體總部的這樣子的一個情況下那我們怎麼樣進行"},{"start":8305.606,"end":8323.48,"text":"如果委員關切的是資料的隱私保護的部分這部分可能不是屬於公平會去處理的問題不是你們處理但是未來審查的時候會不會有介入共同來討論這一點我們會從競爭的觀點去看看他對隱私權保護的夠或不夠到底對市場競爭會產生什麼影響"},{"start":8324.821,"end":8340.463,"text":"所以你們不會就這個部分我們不會直接去看說你接了以後你是不是對隱私權的保護就會比較鬆散所以這個東西你們不會看這個我們不會去介入所以這個東西可能還需要數位部或者是其他的相關部會共同來審查嘛是不是"},{"start":8341.024,"end":8360.275,"text":"如果未來我們所有人在輔培打上面的數據而外流到因為那有可能是那個什麼GDP定位或者什麼等等的相關的問題那如果未來外流到一個不是在台灣的實體公司的時候那怎麼樣處理"},{"start":8361.596,"end":8381.947,"text":"那就是說剛剛跟委員報告隱私的保護我們大概就不會介入處理因為有其他的主管機關在處理那數據的部分其實跟競爭有可能會產生一些關係數據的使用數據的濫用來排斥競爭這個其實競爭法是可以來介入的當然如果有這樣的事證的話我們也會介入去處理所以你們會就數據數據的濫用所導致市場競爭的減損或限制我們如果有這種事證的話我們會介入調查好那"},{"start":8388.612,"end":8401.211,"text":"現在大家討論的就是行政院他宣誓下游不屯那你們說你們只是就聯合什麼樣子叫聯合因為一般的民眾認為當"},{"start":8403.955,"end":8432.77,"text":"這個塑膠袋的情況下那什麼樣子叫聯合什麼樣子只是暫時的囤積在這我相信你們參加了整個物價的這個穩定的你們都是在那個物價穩定平台裡面嘛是那怎麼樣子處理這一塊呢基本上那個平台是分工的啦我們的角色主要就是聯合那當然什麼叫聯合聯合就是同業之間有某一種形式的合意集體的 譬如說集體拒絕出貨這個其實也是聯合行為"},{"start":8434.45,"end":8462.143,"text":"你覺得現在有沒有這樣的情況這個需要市政的調查那調查市政需要一點時間那需要多久因為有時候市政調查這個情況就是說消費者已經面臨到這個情況有點緩不濟急但是目前我們已經跟經濟部在密切的配合如果看他們盤查的結果那同時我們也在自己有進行市場的了解那如果有初步的市政顯示似乎有聯合的情況出現的話我們就會立案調查所以現在你們還需要多少時間"},{"start":8463.667,"end":8470.917,"text":"因為這個事件剛我們現在目前正在了解當中你們需要多少時間"},{"start":8473.171,"end":8497.291,"text":"因為我們現在是調查資料中 還要等業者提供資料過來所以這目前很難給委員一個確確的對啊 因為人家美國說很快就那個中東衝突就結束了嘛你總不能在中東衝突結束前都沒有一個結果還是你們估計你們有內部的資料顯示中東的衝突是超過4到6個禮拜6到8個禮拜是不是6個月以上"},{"start":8500.954,"end":8507.337,"text":"我會盡快啦所以你們可以慢慢做不會慢慢做啦我們一定積極地去調查那什麼時候給給大家一個交代盡量在四個月內可以嘛四個月內做個調查應該要早一點吧四個月內說不定戰爭都結束了因為有時候跟業者要資料他回來我們要研析而且最重要的是說我們要經過委員會還有委員會的討論"},{"start":8530.233,"end":8541.478,"text":"你至少要三個月吧好不好三個月這沒有很勉強啦三個月沒有很勉強啦我們盡量朝三個月來做了好不好好謝謝謝玉峰委員三個月內現在請洪玉祥委員進行詢問"},{"start":8560.78,"end":8577.906,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請這個陳主委陳主委好 那早上我聽了很多我覺得你的挑戰是越來越大尤其碰到我們這種科技利益你可能會更難過一點"},{"start":8579.502,"end":8606.363,"text":"那第一個問題這個傳統問題還是要先幫忙問一下因為剛剛委員很多問了很多那我想我就不再贅述基本上來講我倒是覺得不管你是這個塑料農產包材這些的漲價就是我延緩出貨形成這樣子的我買不到這個塑膠袋甚至這裡頭還要擴展到醫材的問題"},{"start":8608.985,"end":8631.792,"text":"另外包含剛剛我聽到這些的土方之亂這些我想都是民生或者是業者的痛所以我這邊我就不再贅述那我希望主委的話就是儘快主動出擊就是說有時候你應該也可以學學金管會你要等到他發函去然後廠商再把資料調回來那都太慢了"},{"start":8632.552,"end":8656.814,"text":"苦民所苦你就去喝喝咖啡喝喝可樂也可以就你用什麼方式去讓民眾有這個感受我是覺得施政者對不對我們作為一個政府要的事情那我就要跟主委討論的是說當我們這個數位經濟AI這樣子的一個技術進來的時候其實你的dictation就是你的偵測"},{"start":8658.775,"end":8680.693,"text":"法規這其實這個難度越來越高所以我是覺得你們可能要這個逢高計軌日夜不停的一個工作我現在跟各位談的一個問題是說當然我們在公平會不管是寡占聯合的漲價等等這些議題可是呢以前人的話呢你可能還會透過什麼電話"},{"start":8682.694,"end":8692.311,"text":"透過訊息 透過信件 對不對甚至像以前我們在這個科技業的話 面板 對不對在托拉斯的這個法案 反托拉斯這個法案的時候"},{"start":8693.397,"end":8714.952,"text":"但是現在到了這個數位經濟的一個時代來講的話其實我是透過我的程式碼透過我的模型透過我的數據那這樣子來講的話再把它分成說我是人為去控制還是我這個模型或者是我在學習數字的時候我就達到聯合的拱斷的地步"},{"start":8715.632,"end":8740.82,"text":"我覺得你這個難度是更高所以我是覺得說在法規上我看完你們的那些的報告你也許認為現有的法規可能可以處理但我覺得應該是不太會一樣所以我想是提醒主委在這件事那太難的原因是什麼其實也就是說我們現在的話控制的核心是我的數據就是我的資料我的演算法"},{"start":8741.65,"end":8764.418,"text":"另外的話我價格的制定我也不是用人怎麼樣看法因為我的機器奈米級的速度啪就搞定了然後你的那個共謀的證據也不是這些的信件他可能是到我系統的log對不對我的transaction我的交易甚至我要去比對你的call比對說我API的串聯這整個走下去的時候其實不是人可以處理的"},{"start":8764.958,"end":8780.595,"text":"所以你的工具你的這個法規這個我覺得你們都要拘謹我現在先問一個簡單問題在你們所有的委員當中具有資工跟資訊背景人工智能到底有多少委員在委員的成員當中是沒有"},{"start":8781.656,"end":8799.943,"text":"所以我是覺得也許你可以建議啦這個是值得越來越多我相信他會占到未來以後的一半以上不過我們有個叫做經濟跟資訊市場那個裡面就有一些電腦跟資訊方面的人對 因為我覺得他這個難度是更高道高一尺 謀高一丈所以我就提醒"},{"start":8801.075,"end":8824.074,"text":"因為我今天要跟主委分享討論就是說我們要站在更前面一點去看這件事情那我這一塊來講的話主要是說整個AI介入進來的時候其實最左邊介入程度是低也就是說我們兩個共謀完之後然後我們去把它達成漲價合一之後我去調參數所以我們就聯合漲"},{"start":8824.855,"end":8853.497,"text":"那這個當中AI介入程度 裡面AI只是我的工具而已我的這個程式是我的工具但是越往234右邊去越來越難比如說我們來看第二種的類型第二種的類型指的就是我們講的Hub的這個Spock的模式基本上來講的話呢我們這所有的人都去買相同的模型 買相同的這些的演算法來控制我市場的銷售跟這個售價的行為可是"},{"start":8854.971,"end":8875.883,"text":"說實在的我們這些競爭者剛好是買同樣的東西那結果呢我們用的這個同樣的第三方的演算法達成相同的這樣子的聯合的拱斷的價格那這個在美國是有案例的就像這一個RealPage房租的AI的定價案所以像現在來講他可能都使用RealPage的AI"},{"start":8877.262,"end":8896.778,"text":"然後結果他都是說看起來這同一個區差不多類型所以下去之後價格是高度的一致而且不合理那這個時候來講當然房客去告房東房東才會說我們怎麼都是用相同的然後再慢慢賠償台灣有沒有這樣的問題"},{"start":8898.039,"end":8915.938,"text":"跟委員報告一下齁剛剛委員點出來正確就是那四個模型齁這個國際組織也都在從那四個模型去分析那的確沒錯前面兩個在傳統的架構底下比較可以處理但是等到你到了自主學習的時候那個難度就非常高可是這個還沒到右邊喔這個還在第一我了解我了解這個在台灣有沒有所以"},{"start":8917.419,"end":8938.024,"text":"就台灣有沒有發生我們最近剛發布的AI的那個政策聲明我們從回收回來的意見多數業者是認為還沒有出現這樣的現況但是我們持續有在注意這個問題那你的持續是用什麼樣的偵測的工具還是用什麼樣的方式我們有網路上偵測那個價格波動是不是有出現一致但這很難"},{"start":8938.824,"end":8956.52,"text":"因為你沒有去比如說我們現在都是用這個隨便亂講我都用591出租網可是591出租網的那個模型或定價的模式他假設給我建議的時候那他就有可能會形成這樣的方式那你又不可能去說591出租網你怎麼把他的模型演算法這些東西"},{"start":8957.222,"end":8981.461,"text":"所以跟委員報告一下所以我在之前有談到就是說公平會未來針對AI數位這塊市場必須要趕快強化數位執法能力這個就是我擔心的問題那還有很多比如說像這個就是第三種的類型我用的是CHEP GBP你用的是GIMMA它用的是GLOCK甚至有人用不同的模型但是我們用的是相同的開源的這樣子的資料"},{"start":8983.146,"end":8995.28,"text":"數據對不對比如說我這是所謂的房市教育公開的交易資訊我都是所有這個地區的所得稅的什麼這些申報的資料結果這些模型去學這些數據之後推出一致的結論那這種東西未來"},{"start":8998.664,"end":9025.994,"text":"會怎麼防治所以還是回歸到我剛剛談的就是說我們可能對 forensic就是那個數位的那個實證的解析解剖那一塊對所以我是說你在工具證據政策對吧它全部是另外一套因為你整個證據的保全跟dictator跟dictation這是完全不同那我再附帶講一點就是說目前以我們的法規來講對於特別是演算法定價是不是構成聯合行為目前我們的法規是有一些不足的地方"},{"start":9026.594,"end":9047.707,"text":"就是因為我們的聯合行為只限於水平的競爭者所以剛剛委員談到軸扶式的卡特就是共同使用一個那他們可能都不在不同的市場當中所以從法律的要件看起來他們可能不會構成聯合行為所以我目前的修法已經準備要那個條文修正就是不限於水平我現在都是提醒因為我走的比較前瞻一點因為這種東西我覺得未來只會越來越多"},{"start":9050.308,"end":9068.578,"text":"所以身為一個科技業我覺得這件事情會對你公平會造成很大的問題當然還有自主學習的部分最後我耽誤一點的這樣的時間來看這件事情就是說在這裡頭我們的併購我想各位委員前面都吞了很多那我覺得這有兩個層次第一個"},{"start":9069.929,"end":9099.452,"text":"GRAVE的後面還是有一些的滴滴出行入資當然這個可能不歸你管這可能是投審會那邊所以你跟投審會經濟部的投審會可能還要再去合作這是第一道第二道比較擔心的事情剛剛很多委員都講過我透過間接的這樣子的一個情境來達到這個不管是剝削我們的外送員或者是商家的這個漲價對不對就是定價把它偏高收費偏高的行為但是我比較擔心說如果撇開這些都是合法"},{"start":9100.134,"end":9120.755,"text":"那因為Uber又是Grab的股東他們兩個之間的模型甚至模型不同也沒關係數據是去做交換的你也是查不到但是他這樣透過一個獨立的個體但是他中間是透過模型跟數據暗通款曲這個我覺得你的難度是更高"},{"start":9121.573,"end":9140.045,"text":"所以我相信這個證據的調查是有一定的挑戰度不過在證據調查之前的前提就是說假設這個它真的有辦法影響未來的Grab的營運模式那在它的影響底下那個13.5%的股權會影響到什麼程度有沒有導致價格大幅的上漲這個是我們在分析的時候一開始會先確定的"},{"start":9140.445,"end":9168.879,"text":"可是我覺得那還是人為啦我覺得還是從技術的角度來講因為畢竟他還是占董事啊董事的話比方說你用我的數據我們兩個交換一下對不對大家來分析客戶的行為定價這常會發生這當然有可能只是說對陸同委員所講的那個證據的蒐集對我們來講會是個提示我們會持續不斷提醒那最後就是說反正我寫在這邊我希望你們將來對這些的政策定價法規那你會採取什麼措施跑前面一點然後主動一點這樣子"},{"start":9169.96,"end":9189.328,"text":"好不好 好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝洪朝偉的AI壟斷那我們現在請賴瑞榮委員做巡大好 謝主席 請陳主委謝主委"},{"start":9198.622,"end":9218.87,"text":"我有看到你們有做的這個聲明是人工智慧的一個競爭法議題的一個聲明那我首先要肯定我想這個部分諸位上任也積極在做這樣的事情那這個對未來的台灣也相當重要AI包括這些的都是未來全世界的一個趨勢"},{"start":9220.171,"end":9242.999,"text":"台灣也非常重要那但是有幾個我也想要再跟主委這邊提醒的包括你的很多的部分其實事後管制的部分他會遇到很多的問題是已經發生了而後面的處理所以這塊可能也未來也希望公平的我們去思考怎麼樣在事前能夠有一些預防措施而不是到了事後的時候有一些巨大的"},{"start":9243.919,"end":9266.337,"text":"已經產生了以後巨大的影響產生了對市場營造成影響之後那幾乎也是兩手一攤無法解決所以希望未來能夠再請主委也思考怎麼樣在前端的部分做一些處理包括甚至於在變相併購的定義界定的部分甚至於人才的部分怎麼去做更清楚的一個界定讓這件事情更明確那另外還有當然"},{"start":9266.977,"end":9289.907,"text":"台灣也是具有相當潛力那未來這個本土的數據跟整個算力的相關的部分怎麼樣去做更有效我們也希望未來的這一塊公平有更多一些方向跟整個前瞻性的一些做法主委要不要回應一下跟委員報告一下謝謝委員的肯定那委員提到的問題都是我們持續會去觀察跟精進的那在我們的徵詢意見回收的部分其實有兩個共識"},{"start":9291.187,"end":9317.037,"text":"是所有回收意見都支持的其中一個就是說目前的生存式AI甚至整個AI還在發展的初期那背後的動態發展怎麼樣甚至很難預測所以他強烈建議公平回收在目前現在採取低度介入的態度這個就是為什麼我們會覺得說我們還是秉持一個比較事後來監管但是並不表示我們就完全不完全排除那個事前的一些做法我們可能會去看看整個市場的演變"},{"start":9317.577,"end":9340.645,"text":"是不是已經達到很明顯的就是有巨頭在壟斷那也許某一種程度的事先的介入是有必要好這個也跟我們當然面臨到更大的挑戰是我們面對到中國對我們的這個一個專制威權的國家對我們的一個影響那這個部分就其他的不見得民主國家不是遇到這個問題但是在一個威權國家發展他的這個AI過程的時候就有很多"},{"start":9341.085,"end":9368.475,"text":"這塊導致我們必須要很謹慎 如果這個是未來AI是整個長遠的一個國際上的一個趨勢 也是台灣重大的一個未來方向的話 那這一塊可能在未來這塊思考可能要提早來做一些因應是 謝謝韋好 那我們來看一下其實整個在全世界都在發全都在主權AI這塊在推動 所以剛剛也特別提到因為我們跟中國這邊包括語文都是用中文的 甚至於中國他"},{"start":9368.895,"end":9388.468,"text":"我們做過去也看到非常例子他們在他們的AI裡面有設定了很多的一些特定的一些部分那這個未來怎麼樣避免他對台灣之間產生的影響我覺得這塊也值得各部會當然也包括公民會省省去思考這個也是未來我們要面對一個課題好不好 主委這個也是也請回應一下"},{"start":9389.469,"end":9409.768,"text":"這個部分我們在政策聲明裡面有特別談到就是說AI的競爭議題當然本會是主管機關但是有很多的大家關切的議題未必是競爭可以去處理的就像委員所談到要發展主權AI這個比較偏向於國家的產業發展政策我知道事發部或是政府有一些思考這可能會有一些補貼"},{"start":9410.469,"end":9413.231,"text":"那接下來我請教一下之前我也談過很多次蘋果稅的部分在2021年的時候也已經立案了調查了那事實上這個部分主委有更新的一個進度嗎"},{"start":9434.287,"end":9452.717,"text":"這個案子其實我們有送過委員會那委員會討論的結果覺得有些點還必須要進一步調查特別是最近又有幾個國家針對這個議題有做出了一些採除那我們覺得可能這些國家採除的理由我們必須要進一步去了解一下目前還在進一步的調查當中"},{"start":9453.618,"end":9464.772,"text":"因為已經過了三年了啦我們說這個部分可能要儘快有一些的出來啦我們會儘快一塊出來主委預定什麼時候可以有一個初步的出來"},{"start":9467.301,"end":9482.446,"text":"我們大概 現在預定是大概六月六月啦 就是一年上半年會出來我們希望有一個初步的出來因為其他的失業國家也都已經有了相關的這個也是確保我們的相關的權益啦好 謝謝再來我請教一下 其實在很多的一些"},{"start":9484.207,"end":9499.802,"text":"零售業者之後其實他有出現了一些消費者的爭議的問題然後這我舉個例子像這個高大鮮乳他兩罐的售價是那個但是他在他的標示上面特價卻是99這個在消費者之間其實有很多的一些"},{"start":9501.003,"end":9521.919,"text":"傳的這些訊息 我也希望公平委更多試探去介入 去輔導 去了解啦就是這些涉及是否有涉及到相關的不實的問題 甚至有些是疏忽還是他的不實的 甚至是他的行銷策略上的問題 這個恐怕也都需要更多的關心和介入 才能避免去影響到消費者的權益"},{"start":9522.615,"end":9538.779,"text":"這部分我們都有密切在觀察這個有立案了嗎?像這樣的案子有立案嗎?目前還沒有啦我請也立案啦好不好我有立案因為現在很多消費者是習慣到這些大型的零售業者或賣場去採購相當很多的產品那這樣的行為已經發生過好幾次了"},{"start":9539.259,"end":9562.488,"text":"很多消費者他不見得知道他可能看出很便宜99塊買了但刷的時候他也沒有仔細看那個金額但事實上有可能就是貴的金額了那我覺得這一塊要去約束不管你是不舒服的還甚至你是不實的都應該要更加的謹慎小心這也是在維護這個消費者權益也在維護整個市場同時今天也是在保護到這個店家的商譽啦"},{"start":9562.708,"end":9582.817,"text":"跟我們報告一下因為這個是涉及到產品標示的問題所以這也許也會涉及到部會之間執掌也請你們再去了解我想這樣的問題都應該去協助讓更確保這樣的事情不再發生另外商品來源有很多不實現在其實大家很多都利用電商來採購相當多的一些產品那像看到很多幾乎都是"},{"start":9583.297,"end":9603.406,"text":"你以為是在台灣的製造或出貨但事實上你在訂購的時候才發現原來是它從中國大陸那邊過來的那我覺得這些都是涉及到不實的問題甚至於很多的產品的問題也本身都有問題所以來了以後品質是非常差的那等到你後面還要再推的話還是什麼的時候其實都有很多的困擾世界也不那麼容易"},{"start":9603.726,"end":9618.284,"text":"所以我也希望在跟公民軍這邊也跟這些電視上的平台要把這些更確立起來如果你是台灣做的或台灣的就是台灣如果你是在其他的外中國大陸或是其他國外的那也要標示清楚那讓消費者不要受到誤導"},{"start":9620.206,"end":9633.321,"text":"電商平台網路廣告我們都一直持續在監控這個標示不實的部分是我們我們有處分過幾個案子這樣的案子有沒有立案在調查我們曾經有處罰過有處罰過那如果處罰過了還有這樣問題請你們要持續的再去要求再去處罰好不好"},{"start":9637.465,"end":9658.999,"text":"如果還有這樣這不應該發生因為現在的電商越來越多這些消費的爭議這應該要確保消費者的權益那其實韓國也有對於電商的相關不法來重罰那現在也有這個購物的平台裡面開始的他把很多的一些免費補貼甚至於一些相關的"},{"start":9660.74,"end":9682.113,"text":"讓 賦予了讓這些賣家有更大的一個壓力啦我覺得這個也都要請公平化去思考怎麼樣避免這樣的事情因為有些電商已經有越來越獨大甚至於他有市場上的一個效果了獨大獨佔的一個效果如果我們不能夠有效確保買方跟賣方的權益的時候那可能電商會不斷去"},{"start":9682.933,"end":9700.676,"text":"去用更強力這個我也希望這件事情公平又要去了解也要去介入好不好不要讓獨大的電商去影響到整個不管是市場或者是消費者的一切權益有關電商的這一塊我目前都有持續在監控跟了解那甚至假設行為有檢舉有涉及到不法"},{"start":9701.457,"end":9724.615,"text":"我們都還要在公平法裡面去進行這個調查好這請主委再重申最後一個吼那個不動產的交易裡面其實有些的這個我也不知道他是標出來什麼一坪竟然只有0.04萬他應該是把整個總的全部我也希望像這樣的問題但不應該發生好不好如果有發生這樣的問題他不是一個不實我會有資料給你們如果這樣的不實的狀況還是要去"},{"start":9725.976,"end":9754.272,"text":"提醒他們那如果該開法就開法就是不應該讓這樣這樣看起來總價感覺沒有什麼很大的但是他在平數單價上超便宜超低的這有可能會產生一定的物廣效果好不好好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝好謝謝賴樂榮委員謝謝謝謝主委陳超明陳超明陳超明好接下來我們請李坤城委員質詢"},{"start":9765.671,"end":9769.648,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是請陳代理主委請主委 謝謝"},{"start":9776.406,"end":9795.816,"text":"各位好 大家都很關心就是最近因為這個中東戰爭的影響然後這個塑膠的原料上漲那塑膠原料上漲就影響到很多了嘛那譬如說有這一個醫藥用的這一個塑膠手套類拋棄式器那個液材也受到影響"},{"start":9796.556,"end":9802.119,"text":"然後塑膠類的商品有上週競價漲價兩到三成據經濟部的說法 中油說原料的供應沒有短少"},{"start":9812.443,"end":9833.248,"text":"但是呢這個採發署卻說呢有一些呢比較中盤的經銷商有一點點在心態上面延緩出貨或是有囤貨的現象我不曉得這個代理主委知道這個現象我們有去了解了有去了解了今天這兩天媒體出來之後才去了解還是之前就去了解了我們聽到有這樣的新聞以後我們就進行去了解"},{"start":9834.128,"end":9862.548,"text":"了解是一回事有沒有採取什麼樣的動作但因為我們的查核的重點是在於他們有沒有聯合進行價格的操作啦哄抬是一件事情但是這個哄抬是不是出自於彼此合意的哄抬那是我們調查的重點所以我們有在觀察這個市場那另一方面我們也配合經濟部目前正在進行全面的盤查所以假設這個過程當中我們有發現一些可能有聯合的行為這個聯合包含聯合囤積聯合拒絕出貨所以如果市政顯示有這樣的情況的話我們一定會調查"},{"start":9863.208,"end":9883.341,"text":"那你們是調查哪一些比如說行業產業類別是你們怎麼去做調查的可不可以再講個這個具體一點我目前是針對這個這個塑膠這個產業裡面不同的塑膠類型它有分上游中游下游啊對啊你們可不可以有一個具體的一個說法就是說有沒有去了解到底是怎麼樣去了解法"},{"start":9883.581,"end":9898.594,"text":"我們會瞭解它整個的生產線上下游我們都會去瞭解原料因為中游說原料沒有缺啊中下游這些產品不應該受到影響啊這當然就是我們後續要去瞭解是不是到底問題出在什麼地方這個為什麼我們跟經濟部會繼續跟經濟部那邊來來配合那所以咧哪時候會知道這個結果咧"},{"start":9906.994,"end":9912.379,"text":"因為調查證據需要一點時間那這個調查證據完了以後經過分析我們還要經過委員會的討論所以那個時程上會比較難以控制一點不是一般啊因為現在就是說這個中東戰事好那川普說可能到這個4月9號他認為是一個Date Line但是我們也不知道那至少可能還有兩個禮拜的時間那這兩個禮拜的時間可能會"},{"start":9931.256,"end":9946.003,"text":"對於這個消費者來講 目端消費者來講就會受到影響對很多的這一些這個中小學需要用到的一些廠商比如說那個醫院也受到影響啊那甚至很多賣這個手搖飲之類可能也會受到影響啊那所以你們的這個調查時間大概多久可以出來呢"},{"start":9947.063,"end":9971.702,"text":"當我們調查到市政 我們進行分析到底有沒有合意 搭送委員這其實有時候時程上會有一點通常啦 通常你們都會調查我們盡快在三個月內完成可以嗎三個月內完成喔需要這麼久的時間喔對 因為聯合行為的市政的判斷有時候不是那麼的容易就是到底他們業者之間是不是有勾結那個要有更多的市政來做一些推論啦好"},{"start":9972.489,"end":9989.585,"text":"那就等你們的這個報告,然後這兩天有一個新聞主委應該也知道了,就是說那個Grab他來收購這個Fupenda的事情然後呢這個他收購了這個,打算收購Fupenda,但是呢這個"},{"start":9990.766,"end":10015.371,"text":"Uber呢又是國日本的最大的一個股東啦就會變成這樣一件事情啦那其實在2024年的時候也是有這個UberEats要這個併購這個Fupenda那後來你們說這個市佔率過高有這個不利益的因素所以呢你們就沒有讓它通過嘛對不對那現在看起來這個Fupenda它又是另尋出路出來的那對這件事情我們主委的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":10016.142,"end":10031.242,"text":"當然我們分析的原則跟上位的架構是一樣的但是這兩個案子最大的不同是上一個案子結合以後變九成市場超級大的一個企業那這個案子基本上是另外一個企業來頂Fu Panda所以市場結構並沒有產生過大的變化可是"},{"start":10031.923,"end":10050.025,"text":"Uber又是這個啊 這個Gribb最大的股東啊所以繞來繞去還是會變成這一個這個投一家的意思啊因為現在案子還沒進來但等案子進來以後我們的分析重點這個也是我們會去研析的一個重點就是那個實質控股的關係對於整個市場競爭Gribb它的最大的股東應該是Uber才對啊"},{"start":10050.826,"end":10060.293,"text":"對 但是這是13.5對啊那這個部分到底會後續影響到市場競爭到什麼程度這個就是我們後續會會去考慮啦會去考慮這個Uber是國內最大的股市實質的控制對啊那就跟之前是一樣嘛我覺得有點是這一個"},{"start":10067.799,"end":10095.462,"text":"故意來這樣子這個又換了一個一家公司進來但是Uber它還是這一個這家Grab最大的股東我們會去看這個13.5到底實質上它產生的對那個Grab這是一個第二個就是說這個Grab它有這個中資至少我們看到資料就是有這個中國滴滴跟謹順那所以未來這個如果這家公司要進來的話那這部分是不是也要受到這個你們的這個考慮"},{"start":10097.023,"end":10117.472,"text":"我們不會考慮到這個資金來源這應該是投審會投審會那邊投審會那邊會去處理就對了那你們就是考慮到說那到底這個這個未來這個Uber它實質影響到這個Grab市場競爭市場的競爭在台灣的市場競爭他們有來有來做申請嗎還沒有目前還沒有送件目前還沒有送件就對了好我知道好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝謝謝李官成委員接下來我們請這個侯孟"},{"start":10126.957,"end":10135.464,"text":"侯孟凱侯孟凱侯孟凱委員不在葉元梓委員請葉元梓委員質詢謝謝主席好麻煩請代理主委請主委謝謝"},{"start":10159.137,"end":10183.275,"text":"大禹主委您好因為現在主要是因為油價在漲啦大家真的很關心物價希望公平會可以更積極一點啦去針對現在有一些漲價的物品去調查就不要等到好像事情發生有人檢舉之後才去處理那也來不及了啦因為現在油價它的上漲是非常快速的所以物價可能伴隨的也會很快速的上漲千萬不要等到"},{"start":10183.915,"end":10209.694,"text":"有人有施政了然後再摸好幾天那來不及那我昨天是有看到針對那個塑膠袋的部分因為塑膠袋漲價這一塊或者是買不到這個部分經濟部講話也是變來變去啦經濟部一開始是講說不太會有這個問題啦因為他已經要求國內的石化大廠盡量不要去出口啦要針對國內然後所以供應無虞但後來又講說一些中盤商可能會有"},{"start":10211.616,"end":10237.767,"text":"就是囤貨的心理狀態所以導致於市場上買不到甚至於價錢提高那我是有看到經濟部產發署那邊有講說正在跟公平會還有提到公平會正在跟公平會針對幾個中盤商百貨公司 量販店去了解是不是真的缺貨然後隨時監測那這目前經濟部跟公平會你們的做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":10238.917,"end":10266.998,"text":"我們跟經濟部有密切的之間的配合那我們的調查重點就在於這種假設不供貨是不是出自於業者彼此之間的共同的抵制共同的杯葛那如果有這種合意存在的話這個就是公平法裡面所謂的聯合行為那我們就會立案調查那現在有調查狀況怎麼樣都沒有 有沒有合意現在目前還沒有查到這樣的事證不過我們還在持續的調查你們已經查了多少中盤商百貨公司跟量販店了"},{"start":10268.537,"end":10287.608,"text":"目前還沒有開始啦還沒開始對 但是我們這個是我們會查處的目標啦這是相關的整個預計什麼時候開始因為經濟部我想說經濟部是不是因為昨天在這邊被大家問啊就隨口講說已經跟公平會跟警察局已經針對中盤商百貨公司這樣飯店做調查了解我沒有懂我們會針對問問公平會公平會說還沒開始那預計什麼時候開始這幾天"},{"start":10293.931,"end":10317.323,"text":"小老百姓在買塑膠袋的時候都買不到我們去麵包店去買麵包然後麵包店老闆說有的說不提供塑膠袋有的說塑膠袋要算錢的那民眾想說為什麼他說以前買一袋30元的塑膠袋現在盤商就要60塊那全部都漲那公民會有沒有去我知道你們的立場是說如果他們是個別漲"},{"start":10318.206,"end":10344.883,"text":"那就不構成聯合壟斷嘛但是如果有合意了我們每一家講好說我們是不是一起來哄抬價格可能就也不一定要講好了就是說如果市場上有一些一些波動的情況是可以有足以懷疑說是出於合意我們還是可以推論他有合意那是不是可以積極一點啊我們就其實大家都在問這個問題是不是可以我們有主動在觀察這個事情主動大概比如說是不是幾天內可以針對這個部分做個公開跟社會大眾報告"},{"start":10347.316,"end":10365.746,"text":"主委你現在回答都比較空啦都一直講說我們準備我們要我們但是到底有沒有什麼時間啟動針對幾家這種具體的部分剛剛委員報告過我們接下來就會積極的去救產業鏈整個各個廠商去調查那是不是"},{"start":10366.326,"end":10391.983,"text":"我們預計大概差不多三個月內可以完成三個月都不知道漲到哪裡去了啦你要趕快而且我建議是不是可以建立一個資訊公開透明的機制告訴大家說現在說要帶比如說合理的價錢應該是多少然後讓大家知道說如果太貴的話他可能有問題就是三個月真的太久了因為我們證據調查還要送委員會討論所以這個時程上有時候比較難以掌握"},{"start":10393.438,"end":10410.791,"text":"好 盡快啦 好不好謝謝 我們盡量然後我請教一下之前的紐西蘭鮮奶因為零關稅的嘛因為價格居高不下後來好像在幾個月前公民會有去調查那價格有下來那目前這個紐西蘭鮮奶最新的進度你們還有在持續追查嗎"},{"start":10411.53,"end":10428.403,"text":"我們目前根據上一次的調查結果是並沒有違反公平法的規定因為國內的現代市場有競爭然後紐西蘭市佔率也不高所以我們後來調查結果是沒有違反公平法沒有違反公平法OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝岳元之委員的質詢謝謝接下來我們請邱志偉召委質詢對 人大召委"},{"start":10444.437,"end":10462.327,"text":"我們可以給你時間盡情發揮謝謝主席 視頻有請公平會這個陳代理主委好 請公平會主委 謝謝"},{"start":10466.766,"end":10469.767,"text":"幾個問題就從你的醫護報告裡面來跟您請教靜齡轉型跟ESG目前的趨勢但是會打著靜齡跟ESG的口號或者大旗"},{"start":10490.117,"end":10517.575,"text":"這個進行綠色行銷綠色行銷當然你會有那種greenwashing就是說漂綠那你們報告裡面也說這個變成這個市場競爭秩序的一些新興的威脅新興威脅所以你的報告裡面說碳中和淨零這些未來會列為不實廣告的查核重點但是事實上數據來看這個是哪一個業務處在主管"},{"start":10518.82,"end":10547.359,"text":"它是我們不公平競爭處就是涉及到不實廣告的部分過去這一年有沒有針對這個所謂greenwashing的行為有沒有任何的採取我們有採取過我印象中應該是兩件那個案子它是涉及到對外宣稱創造一些實際上不存在的那個跟激凌有關的實險譬如說怎麼綜合施等等事實上以這個東西來吸引消費者那有沒有採訪呢有採訪"},{"start":10549.08,"end":10575.778,"text":"拆發金額是多少錢?我們目前沒有罰還上的裁罰,我們只是告訴他你違法,然後我們用警示的方式就是沒有裁罰嘛,是口頭告誡警示,我們用警示的方式警示那一點效果都沒有嘛那你後續追蹤他這個類似的行為有沒有繼續存在?他們的東西大概都已經,他們的廣告都下架了在我們處分的時候都下架了"},{"start":10577.04,"end":10601.361,"text":"就是他們不再進行這個票率的我是覺得像這個絕對不是個案你如果沒有公權力發揮的這個嚇阻力或者制裁力他這個一定是頂多被口頭警告而已所以他這個他的行為會繼續存在可能變本加厲所以未來我希望今天執行之後是不是公平會針對這個Greenwashing的這些行為"},{"start":10602.639,"end":10617.254,"text":"一定要用採除方式所以我們會密切注意但是因為有時候業者他的那個有時候他已經沒有在營業或者說營業金額非常的低然後第一次出販等等我們在罰款的決定上有一些標準我們會綜合考慮當然委員談到如果說企業夠大那"},{"start":10618.114,"end":10646.605,"text":"態度不佳或是說經常在從事這個行為我們就會重罰因為你報告說這是你們一個不實廣告的查核重點重點你就是要這個實際上去全面的去查核只要有人檢舉或者你們發現你們就要去主動去查這部分我們都持續有在在在監測但我覺得目前你們相關的做法這個在你們報告裡面我覺得相對是被動消極你要看其他國家他有他的這個事前的這些防治"},{"start":10647.725,"end":10669.721,"text":"然後有相關的作業準則所以這個部分 主委我希望你們未來事前管理跟可驗證性這兩個方向你們要去研究事前管理還有可驗證性還有一個比較公平或者比較客觀的查核標準"},{"start":10671.729,"end":10699.933,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我們持續會監控這方面的行為那當然這個所有的作為都會持續的精進監控要有效果要有效率效率就是及時去處理那效果你監控的時候你要有一個相對相對的查核手冊讓我們同仁依據這個手冊馬上去你這可能要跟環境部合作自列一個國外都有這個所謂廣告查核手冊"},{"start":10700.708,"end":10723.404,"text":"他有一個標準所以這個部分我覺得是不是在未來三個月把它完成會同這個衛福部我們回去研習一下看這個該怎麼做會比較好那當然這也涉及到可能我們必須要跟環境部那邊來是啊所以我已經提出這個建議我的把想法跟你講那你不是說回去研究一下這不可行又完全沒有任何動作"},{"start":10724.859,"end":10741.228,"text":"所以查核要有效果跟效率你要有一個所謂的這個查核手冊這個其他國家都有這個相關以科學作為根據所以這部分我拜託主委三個月之內跟衛福部一個月之內跟衛福部"},{"start":10742.153,"end":10757.884,"text":"去研究怎麼樣去制定一個查核的指引或者查核的手冊我們跟環境部會共同來思考然後就是在委員的三個月內給委員一個報告另外你這個宣導也是很重要不要讓這個企業用這個greenwashing"},{"start":10758.447,"end":10780.44,"text":"去作為不實廣告 是破壞公平競爭好 第二項問題就是說這個不動產不動產跟這個加盟的招募你們這個裁罰過去最多就是大概不動產嘛 對不對是好 不論是服務業還是製造業服務業競爭處是服務競爭處好這個這個部分"},{"start":10785.948,"end":10804.728,"text":"變成一個105件是一個重災區啊所以你那個違法的樣態都集中在不實加成或者未提供這個加盟的重要資訊房地產的部分不動產的部分就是不實加成那這個所謂加盟的招募是未提供加盟重要資訊你們這個已經出來105件"},{"start":10808.703,"end":10832.5,"text":"除了裁罰金額是多少錢?裁罰金額是多少?總共1580億元所以代表說這個部分普遍存在你們除了持續加罰之外你們要有更好的防止的措施包括警示機制的預警功能也好或者你要累犯要罰還要加倍"},{"start":10835.979,"end":10859.833,"text":"這個部分這個有沒有在考慮我們的罰緩就是剛剛跟委員報告大概依照我們的施行細則36條我們會綜合各個因素考慮那當然我也了解委員的關切就是這些不動產生可能資本額非常大然後沒有辦法達到嚇阻的效果那這些東西我們在委員會討論罰緩的時候都會有去具體的考慮那這個累犯呢累犯當然會加重"},{"start":10860.811,"end":10869.314,"text":"現在是加重比例是多少其實並沒有說一個固定要加多少比例但是只要他過去曾經犯過我們一定會把這個法案再加重"},{"start":10871.282,"end":10898.741,"text":"罰則就是要給他們有嚇阻效果他行為才會收斂這類似行為才不會再發生如果你連罰則都沒有善用的話那恐怕他不會他不會理會你的這個行政的管理行政管理不夠一定要用比較高強度的這個行政裁罰是我們要注意這個問題另外加盟資訊的這個透明化2.0這部分你有沒有想法你要包括比較具體的平均營收啦或者過去的違約比例等等"},{"start":10899.562,"end":10921.303,"text":"把這個資料庫把它建立起來讓這個加盟的陷阱能夠減少我想因為一些宣導是有在做就是跟這些加盟事業有談到說哪些資訊是你在加盟當下必須要可以跟他要來了解的那這些相關的資訊我們也都持續會去注意到底是不是有些新的要進來"},{"start":10922.304,"end":10945.259,"text":"那通常這些資訊是在整個加盟產業協商過程當中普遍大家都會重視的一些那這些東西我們要求加盟業者要揭露給加盟市場加盟陷阱存在如果受到這個加盟陷阱受到傷害的都是中小企業或者是小資本或者是一些中南部很多是加盟商如果陷阱他可能血本無歸"},{"start":10946.815,"end":10966.003,"text":"所以我們大概事前我們積極有在宣導這個加盟的一些相關的原則讓業者可以知道還有很多議題要跟請教因為實際上的關係我必須要遵守事件好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝邱志維委員謝謝那因為洪孟凱委員那我們先請洪孟凱委員質詢4分鐘"},{"start":10977.403,"end":11002.683,"text":"好 主席謝謝麻煩請我們代理主委請代理主委好 代理主委早那個我想可能有一些委員都很關心我想外送平台上個禮拜發生一個大事就是說這個Glob這一個公司它預計要收購這個Full Panda那過去也才看到說Uber Eats說要用300億"},{"start":11003.584,"end":11032.078,"text":"台幣左右來收購Fubenda可是到最後是沒有讓它成功嘛那現在Grab這個公司它要收購它是以200億第一金額少了100億不過更重要的是其實我們站在的是消費者餐廳以及整個市場機制健全的角度來看就是說還是要避免單一群體壟斷的一個行為也因此早上我有看到說這個代理主委有時候回答是說因為現在Uber雖然是Grab的主要的股東"},{"start":11033.078,"end":11055.578,"text":"但是他的占比你說是只有13%左右目前就是根據財報上的資料13.5%但是他是第二大股東喔這點我們公平會有注意到吧他是大股東他是第二大股東第一大股東是SoftBank如果說以現在公開的財報2024年當然2025年最近資料我可能還沒有看到但2024年最大股東他的占比多少清楚嗎"},{"start":11059.198,"end":11084.435,"text":"其實也只有13%換言之其實Uber它在Glob的股權來講它其實還是有所謂的應該看起來還是有所謂實質影響力就我們了解應該是最大的對 因為第三大 第四大是所謂的投資銀行或是說相關的像Morgan Stanley等等的部分所以本期今天點出來的問題點還是在於說後續我們公平會應該會有一個機制去看是不是會有單一聯合壟斷的狀況"},{"start":11086.156,"end":11101.983,"text":"是不是 委員所關切的這個持股控股跟影響事業經營的部分這本來就是我們在結業審查裡面會去判斷的我們強調的是實質的控制力 是所以我們會去看這個13.5所呈現出來的在企業經營上的影響程度到底有多高 是不是可以讓他不會說只是用"},{"start":11102.663,"end":11116.593,"text":"單一的 因為我現在看到新聞這樣畫面我會很擔心說是不是已經公平會有先入為主這一個案件了沒有 我只是要陳述一個事實13.5但是這個東西未來在審查過程當中是會被納入的好 所以未來接下來的這個時程會怎麼走"},{"start":11118.774,"end":11135.584,"text":"一直還沒送件如果說送件的話送件進來以後我們看看那個資料補的齊不齊不齊我們會叫他再補是補完以後正式啟動以起算六個月內我印象中是六個月內應該前後假設要延長的話大概三個月九十天"},{"start":11136.424,"end":11163.026,"text":"90天內會來做一個審核那但是在這過程裡面本席也提醒喔因為過去當然本席以往的態度為什麼我們會在未完委員會要推動外送專法也正式的讓它上線就是因為我們認為是過去外送的這個行業裡面當然先進科技也產生但是一強獨大三個比較弱外送員比較弱消費者比較弱以及餐廳比較弱這也是事實"},{"start":11163.846,"end":11182.621,"text":"而現在看到這種跨國企業他可以一次拿出幾百億的台幣就可以來進軍市場代表是說他其實在國際的這個資金來講他是充裕的而我們消費者外送員以及餐廳的權益就要好好的被保障所以這也是我們希望是能夠做到四方多贏的一個"},{"start":11183.702,"end":11199.655,"text":"成果那過去GLUB在東南亞也有一些比較不好的例子是被當地政府到最後是開罰的譬如說他用演算法來抵制低佣金的餐廳在比較熱門尖峰時段的時候他用演算法就把一些"},{"start":11200.416,"end":11223.899,"text":"低佣金的餐廳給遮蔽或是說排到比較後面讓消費者他可能比較沒有辦法選到這是確實已經在新加坡還是馬來西亞他們就有開罰的一個經驗所以這樣這些部分是不是公平會未來在做審議的時候也應該要用附加條件附加行為的方式來要求過去曾經在其他國家犯的過錯或是被開罰的行為不能在台灣發生"},{"start":11224.951,"end":11240.665,"text":"剛剛委員點出一個重點就是過去他曾經做過的違法歷史我們是會考慮的那個考慮如果說這個違法行為非常明顯然後影響市場競爭非常嚴重在台灣那就如同委員所講的我們不排除用付負擔當然付負擔前提是這個案子過了"},{"start":11240.985,"end":11269.725,"text":"但是我們現在沒有預設任何結論假設如果要通過這些過去的一些違法的事蹟我們也不排除可以在負負擔裡面去要求他必須要遵守好 謝謝戴主委有一個比較正向的回應那我只想講就是說現在因為葉子還沒有送件我們沒有任何預設立場但本期的方向是我們歡迎所有良好的企業都來投資台灣這一塊市場因為台灣這個市場大家競爭能夠讓消費者有更好的選擇可是不要有這種"},{"start":11271.066,"end":11294.92,"text":"過度單一壟斷的行為發生並且更重要的是過去有實力的真的已經有發生被開罰的絕對不應該在台灣來出現所以這一個案子我想去年最大案子應該就是Uber Eats跟Fupenda的一個併購但後面沒有成那今年感覺最重大的案子之一會是這一個案件那我也希望公民會以最嚴謹專業的態度來審視可以嗎我們會非常嚴謹的來審查這個案子"},{"start":11299.305,"end":11300.235,"text":"謝謝戴主委 我們會繼續追 謝謝"},{"start":11301.567,"end":11330.583,"text":"好謝謝鴻海委員執行謝謝謝謝主委我稍微把今天的東西結論一下再請公平會回去好好演繹第一個就是在這個塑膠塑化之亂土方之亂我覺得這個要儘快隨時公布你們的一個調查的結果對這些資訊要所有掌握了那如果你們有在這個公開的網站或什麼可以儘快就宣示那"},{"start":11331.738,"end":11348.57,"text":"另外來講的話呢就是在這個Grab的這個併購項很多委員都有提出來那一門本席召委也是有提出來所以我覺得這一塊的話你們在做將來審議可能還是要考慮一下跟投審會對不對因為他這邊有入資的一個問題"},{"start":11349.651,"end":11377.759,"text":"然後你們這邊形成一個間接的鞏斷怎麼樣子做出你們的看法跟立場同時是要保證我們外送員的權益商家的權益消費者的權益那另外比較新興的其他議題大概就是宗教兵委員跟我所提出來的就在你們的人員法制的這些的要跟上我們數位時代AI的這樣子的一個腳步那這個我想我會列入持續的一個追蹤"},{"start":11379.039,"end":11391.588,"text":"那另外在這個邱昭偉這邊的不管是在考慮加盟資訊的透明化我覺得這一塊的議題在不實廣告這邊我希望你們也是可以緊述有一些積極的回應"},{"start":11393.695,"end":11409.552,"text":"好做我的summary大概是这样那第一个登记发言委员除不在场外其余均已发言完毕询答结束第二委员陈超明蔡易宇所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报"},{"start":11410.453,"end":11428.167,"text":"第三书面质询和未及答复的部分请相关单位于一周内以书面答复并复制本会委员令要求期限者从期锁定本日所列议程处理完均谢谢大家现在散会"}]}},{"id":"167965","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167965","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4ed13c20ec2401f804c30e9bbc489b48f659fafa764ae08f532f230d750febacb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"11:51:09 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生育補助這部分編了7.99億對沒錯"},{"start":74.926,"end":88.157,"text":"那我們看一下其實我們針對生育補助我們有勞保有生育補助然後軍公教人員也有生育補助那扣除這些的部分就是我們國民年金保險的生育給付"},{"start":90.8,"end":106.597,"text":"然後經過我們也看了一下那我們7.99億我們現在針對這一部分我們從今年1月1號開始針對受理民眾我們生育給附加生育補助我們要給他合計補助10萬對 沒錯合計補助10萬這我們鼓勵鼓勵大家來"},{"start":111.262,"end":120.988,"text":"對 就是可以申請到10萬那所以我們7.99億如果申請到10萬那算起來就是7,990人可以申請這個補助國保這邊對 國民保險的部分對 沒錯那針對我們剛剛"},{"start":127.071,"end":144.95,"text":"有講到我們各種生意補助其實我們看了一下這幾年我們整個平均值我們全國出生的人數跟我們國民年金申請補助的人數算起來每年大概申請補助大概都是10%大概從112年 113年 104年"},{"start":149.375,"end":174.976,"text":"都是9.79% 10.02% 10.38%所以大概平均值大概就是一成嘛10%那如果照我們衛福部這樣子估計那你7.99億領國民年金保險7,990人那占全國新生兒出生數的一成那所以你預估我們115年新生兒大概就是差不多"},{"start":175.836,"end":194.39,"text":"七萬九千九百九十人大概八萬如果以這樣子預算估計的話如果整個平均值我們佔一成來講我們去回推所以我們照這樣來講衛福部數預估今年一百一十五年大概新生兒從你預算編列大概是預估就是八萬人"},{"start":196.38,"end":211.496,"text":"如果從預算的評估來講因為現在就像委員剛剛講的會來領的有軍公教啊也有這一個也有這一個勞保你現在用的是那個國保教育推估我是說因為連續這幾年的平均值我剛剛有講連續這幾年的平均值"},{"start":215.2,"end":239.615,"text":"扣掉勞保軍公教保險的領國民年金保險的這幾年平均值差不多都是10%有9點多有10點多所以大概就是一成所以如果說看我們衛福部預估來講我覺得看起來好像衛福部對今年新生的人數大概就是8萬所以看起來是不樂觀包委員這個我們當然會繼續來努力當然我們繼續來"},{"start":244.005,"end":253.7,"text":"來努力啦因為這個基本上人口學裡面也告訴我們了這個基本上出生基本上也跟生育步調有關啦生育步調就tempo就是說你在4040的這個16到45歲你在什麼時候生他有時候"},{"start":259.088,"end":263.932,"text":"如果說以我們預算的編列因為我們預算編列一定是推估今年大概新生兒你才會去推這個預算嘛你要編預算一定有一些依據一定有一些數據去考量所以你大概就是像我剛剛講如果說以這麼多年的數據我們以領國民年金保險大概就是一成"},{"start":283.408,"end":294.473,"text":"所以我們就是預估今年就是8萬人所以我們領國民年金抓一成來講就是8000人8000人再乘以10萬大概就是8億嘛所以你們編7.99億我們依這樣來預估所以照這樣來講衛福部"},{"start":299.208,"end":316.454,"text":"預估今年新生兒應該有可能就是8萬左右所以以我們預算的編列的精神來講的話郭包委那個通常人口學在推估的時候不是用這種方式人口學通常是用算那個育齡婦女他的那個數目然後他的cohort所以如果說每個來領10萬其實我們就只能提供79900人去領因為你只有編7.99億嘛所以你只要到"},{"start":326.337,"end":352.367,"text":"超過八萬人我們預算就是領完了所以我們預估大概就是這樣子好那當然我們當然也是希望能夠有所提升啦只是我看衛福部針對這部分的預算我們照這樣子幾年的評估看起來感覺衛福部評估大概就是八萬感覺並不是很樂觀啦那這部分我也想問一下我們我請一下勞動部我們洪部長好不好"},{"start":361.195,"end":377.867,"text":"所以當然我剛剛有跟我們次長討論那依這個預算編列我是覺得衛福部大概是朝這個方向的方向大概去看去走那我看一下我們勞動部我們預估115年新生兒像勞動部就比較樂觀預估還有101,500人那我們勞動部是針對哪一部分去做這個評估這個預算"},{"start":391.345,"end":409.91,"text":"根本說明因為去年的出生數應該是十萬七千我記得是十萬七千所以我們基本上當然因為這個出生數的推估這個我們其實應該是跟包括跟衛福部跟國發會這邊來去做一些相關的討論"},{"start":413.994,"end":433.174,"text":"對 因為針對這部分我們是發現這個問題所以我覺得我們衛福部跟勞動部我們跨部會應該針對這一部分這些數據其實在編列預算的時候應該還是要做一些參考要有一些數據要有一些依據來編列這些預算對 當時我們其實應該是看應該是看國發會其實一些"},{"start":435.636,"end":457.011,"text":"對他其實有個人口推廓數據他今年應該會針對這個人口推廓數據再做更新我覺得我知道是他會在今年的8月會再做一次的更新只是剛剛跟衛福部跟次長討論我們針對那預算的部分我覺得大概衛福部其實大概編列7.99億就是朝著大概8萬人新生兒去編列那可是我們勞動部就"},{"start":459.549,"end":474.179,"text":"預估就是10萬1500人其實我們兩個部會整體預算的編列看起來就差了2萬多個新生兒的預算去編列所以我們是建議啦應該以後針對這些預算編列應該跨部會我們能夠做一些檢討不然這個預算數據的編列上感覺落差很大"},{"start":483.666,"end":504.767,"text":"那個跟文說明就是我覺得針對這個人口數數字的推估當然我們可以來跟國發會這邊來做一些討論接下來怎麼在實際上面能夠讓他能夠更加的精準可是的確因為他是推估所以當然都會有或多或少都會有一些誤差值那這個誤差值的不確定性我想我們是可以來做一些研議的檢討當然"},{"start":506.248,"end":521.26,"text":"對不過沒關係啦這個是說我們建議就是說編列預算的時候其實我們各部會針對這個人口數應該要有一個比較近的依據你看看起來這預算編列兩個部會其實推估的人口數上次有一些"},{"start":521.7,"end":532.81,"text":"因為這個數字在編列的時候去年其實在編列的時候其實那時候最後那個十萬七千這個數字其實也還沒有出來所以當時在評估的時候我們只能依據國發會當時的數字來去當作參數來設定"},{"start":537.912,"end":557.378,"text":"好那重點還是看起來我覺得我們這8年大概花了6000億在我們少子女化的對策因應的計畫上面可是我們新生人口數我看也是從18萬然後現在也是一直下降到"},{"start":558.118,"end":584.439,"text":"十萬七千多人其實這段時間來我們已經每年新生到去年就少了七萬五千人看起來我們花了這六千億然後現在又編列這麼多錢看起來好像沒有達到實質的效益出來就是說人口數新生人口數還是一直在下降並沒有止跌我們不要講說回升啦現在連止跌都沒達到"},{"start":586.089,"end":589.218,"text":"那是不是應該要有提出一個更好的策略"},{"start":591.229,"end":617.787,"text":"非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心我想整個少子女化是所有先進國家先進工業國家普遍都會面臨問題全世界大概目前對這個對策大概就三個一個給人給錢給時間給錢的部分我們現在目前大概就是有各項的我們0到6歲的這個部分主要就有育兒津貼給服務這邊主要事實上就是我們現在目前正在推的各項的公托那給時間其實主要就是現在勞動部現在目前在推的各項的彈性還有包括現在目前"},{"start":621.229,"end":644.954,"text":"的一個彈性的措施那我想這個多元的措施之下我們希望用多元的方式來解決這問題我要強調一點這個這個是2000年population study一篇最重要的一篇被人家引用快500多次的一篇paper裡面講這是多元的原因造成多元結果所以必須要用多元的方法綜合來解決那這個我們知道現在目前下降我們也會來持續來努力"},{"start":648.335,"end":670.929,"text":"其實今天提出最主要原因其實還是希望就是說我們要怎麼去針對這個政策去做檢討去做調整因為我們看一下我們看韓國他從去年11月他的人口出生率就到達2萬多而且他已經是連續17個月都是增加的而且他從2007年"},{"start":672.91,"end":699.538,"text":"也是前面他們也是人口出生率也是一直在降低可是他從2007年開始後面到去年他已經達到時隔18年的最高的標準也就是說韓國針對少子女化對策因應這一方面他不是單就就是一直去補助錢補助錢他有其他很多的對策因應那我們是建議有做得好的國家我們也應該去"},{"start":700.938,"end":718.493,"text":"參考一下人家去做一些什麼對策去因應那今天我們這八年花了六千億然後人口還是一直在減低我覺得應該也是適時的去參考一下其他的國家的做法為什麼他們以前也是出生率也是降低為什麼這幾年已經連續每個月每年都在提升我覺得不要說"},{"start":725.238,"end":735.645,"text":"回聲啦至少我們要達到止跌所以今天提出也是說希望有些政策我們應該可以去調整一下方向可以去參考一下別的國家的做法好"},{"start":738.254,"end":759.348,"text":"好那也希望說這個大家也知道就像剛剛次長講的這少子女化也是全球目前大家一個非常重要關注的一個議題啦那但是有其他國家做得好的我們也可以去討論也可以去檢討那也是希望能夠讓我們這個少子化的國安危機能夠做得充分的改善好謝謝好謝謝圖全基委員呃待會洪孟凱委員"}]}},{"id":"167964","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167964","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e736fcaafd91cc16cc30e9bbc489b48f659fafa764ae08f53aa0c9bef82072cda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:36:41 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我們請洪部長有請洪部長"},{"start":18.716,"end":24.781,"text":"本席想請教一下 從4月13號起 家中有一名未滿12歲的兒童就可以申請外籍幫傭你們會宣布這樣的一個政策 你們是已經討論很久"},{"start":39.031,"end":62.142,"text":"那可能也許會有一些你們需要的一些配套措施嗎那有這樣的一個想法你們是討論多久然後才推出這樣的一個政策出來其實從去年去年其實就已經開始研議了那包括我們跟衛福部跟行政院其實也一直在做這些相關的研議的討論那這個會影響的家庭有多少"},{"start":63.688,"end":77.619,"text":"先跟委員說明第一個是以目前的這個開放的這個適用的有申請資格的是144萬戶可是並不是有申請資格就會來申請那麼你們預計會有多少人會來申請"},{"start":83.504,"end":103.171,"text":"第一個是其實因為的確都會涉及到這些家庭他的需求狀態也包括他的經濟負擔是也包括涉及到他家裡有沒有空間所以不是那麼容易有一個公式可以套進去說可以有個具體的數字那你們預計你們自己應該我們認為的確因為現在方用是2000的確會比這個數字應該會增加不少這樣子"},{"start":107.273,"end":123.07,"text":"那我們現在能夠做的事情是我們會先把相關的資源就是說假設會有受到比方說本國的工作者他需要我們多幫助的話這個就業的或者是擴大他勞務市場的計畫我們會跟衛福部一起先來把它準備好"},{"start":123.41,"end":145.268,"text":"好那部長就是之前我們也有提到就是說80歲免巴士量表那現在我們又開放這個外籍幫傭那這個會不會排擠到就是說我之前一直在提到就是說可能一些家裡面真的需要的這個重症或者是急重症的這樣的一個這個有這樣的一個家庭的"},{"start":146.588,"end":172.855,"text":"會不會受到排擠那部長當然我記得我是上一次有特別有問過你那這一次我們又放寬這個外籍幫傭的這個部分那我想請教就是說你們會去評估那到底這個外籍移工來到台灣之後這個外籍幫傭或者是外籍看護工那他會不會去選擇他的雇主那當然會選擇他比較好照顧的嘛"},{"start":174.875,"end":200.109,"text":"跟文說明其實在去年這個舊法46條修正後我們其實有研議的一個六個方向的配套那在8月的時候上路確實經過這半年的時間半年多的時間來看的話其實我們看到我們的配套確實是有效果的配套的目的當然就是希望能夠減少過去大家擔心的那個所謂器重則輕的這個狀況我們其實"},{"start":202.677,"end":223.504,"text":"因為大家會擔心這件事情所以我們透過一些方式讓重症可以優先包括是現在我們這個如果這個外籍看護他他這個要媒合的時候我們其實是14天內是優先給重症的雇主來去做登記承接你這個外籍幫傭的部分因為你有這一次有針對"},{"start":225.104,"end":240.983,"text":"家裡面就是特殊的這個家庭那也有做一些放寬嘛對不對那這個的話一般家庭跟比較特殊的這種部分你們會有去做區分嗎就像你說重症的可能會優先那這個的部分你們也會有這樣子一個"},{"start":242.084,"end":259.595,"text":"也會 我們在比較是特殊需求跟弱勢的家庭我說弱勢的指的是他可能是單親的家庭 特定的家庭或者是有家長生長或者是他的小孩有罕病 少療 發展遲緩可能之類的我們把他的救安費給降低到2000塊"},{"start":260.939,"end":277.432,"text":"那在我們的這個行政的審核上面我們也有專案的人員會把他提前優先來做審理那也包括在相關的這個人力假設進入到承接轉換承接的時候重症的家庭或特殊需求家庭我們其實也是讓他是優先承接的"},{"start":277.952,"end":302.82,"text":"好 那我想請教就是說你們這個政策出來之後你們有去評估就是說會對原本在這個職場我們講的這個外籍放寬這個外籍幫傭那原本在做保姆或者是做家庭幫傭的本國勞工會有多大的影響你們有做這樣的一個評估嗎有 跟委員說明第一個是我們認為可能對於既有的托育人員"},{"start":304.002,"end":329.734,"text":"或者是這個家事服務的本國的人員其實如果我們都沒有任何配套可能的確會對他們可能服務的時數會有一點影響可能會有一點影響所以這是為什麼我們其實才要你一個配套然後包括我們也編列會編列資源來去協助他們擴大他們現在勞務市場包括我們會設我們會有規劃跟一個跟他們的這個媒合的平台"},{"start":330.454,"end":346.007,"text":"那衛福部現在應該就有這個拖圓圓的媒合的平台他們應該會擴大的來進行可是現在的媒合平台不是就直接交給仲介去處理嗎目前我們如果要聘僱外籍不是不是現在我指的是本國給本國的工作者的部分"},{"start":346.827,"end":371.604,"text":"這是給本國工作者的部分他們其實會有媒合的平台他們也會擴大那勞動部這邊我們也會對本國的家事的服務員的部分其實我們也會設計這個媒合的平台一個服務的專區讓他們目的是讓他們擴大他們可以服務的勞務市場我們也希望就是說當然我相信你們就是說你們這個政策推動出來是要補我們的這個"},{"start":373.255,"end":381.242,"text":"勞力不足的部分是這樣子嗎你們有去做評估嗎其實跟原本你這樣的一個政策你應該是要就是補這個我們原本的可能本勞他對於這個家事這個可能"},{"start":388.889,"end":408.733,"text":"不想去參與這樣或者是從事這樣的一個家事的一個工作那是要去補充我們勞力不足的這個部分那你們確實是有去評估過有我跟委員說明其實我們跟很多他其實潛在可能有需要的家庭我們其實也跟他做訪談我自己親自也訪談那的確我舉個例子比方說夜間"},{"start":412.415,"end":431.736,"text":"夜間是比較不容易找到本國的工作者來協助的那也有很多他其實雙薪家庭的老公他會跟我們反映說他其實晚上有這樣的需求比方說他可能晚上他有跟我們表達說他希望能夠有他自己想要進修或者是"},{"start":432.657,"end":458.823,"text":"他有夜班或者是他其實晚上會有兼差的接案他其實晚上也有這樣的需求可是晚上的部分夜間的部分就是很難找到本國的工作者來去協助他那也會有一些剛才講到特進的家庭他的需求是特別高的所以他也會特別需要希望有人可以來幫他做家務上面的分擔的部分所以我們其實在這幾個月裡面就是針對這需求的部分進行相對應的這些評估"},{"start":459.983,"end":487.728,"text":"好我們一方面也不希望就是說因為我們有放寬這個外籍幫傭的這個條件之後然後去衝擊到本國勞工的這個工作機會那另外一方面就是說又是另外一個層次的就是說原本這個勞動市場會不會因為我們有這樣子的一個外籍幫傭那剛剛部長有特別提到就是說也會讓這個本籍的"},{"start":488.348,"end":504.68,"text":"本級的我們的勞工好的這個市場能夠再更加的一個擴大更多的機會好那我想請教就是說我們放寬這個外籍幫傭然後來到台灣那剛剛部長有特別提到就是說讓本"},{"start":505.521,"end":523.408,"text":"本國的勞工的這個工作機會能夠比較大原本他可能從事這樣的一個工作的這個工作機會更大那我想請教就是原本如果這個你們有其中有一項就是說你們有相關的配套那其中有一項就是確保家務工作品質"},{"start":525.204,"end":551.909,"text":"那你們有說這個基本就是要幫庸就培訓或者是育兒指導員 倒宅指導服務技巧這是其中的一項配套嗎是 但是它比較是基本的對 那我想請教就是說這個主責單位到底是地方政府或者是衛福部那你們可以做到這麼吸到倒宅沒錯"},{"start":553.109,"end":573.284,"text":"我跟委員報告啦因為我們少子女化我們現在知道現在很多新手爸媽他們現在目前其實很需要有一些倒宅的指導這個我們是學日本我跟委員報告他的倒宅指導主要是就是說他從孕婦產期第三期第四期就開始進入做一些相關諮商到時候你們要做嫁禮你們要做嫁禮其實是說你孩子你現在已經在做了還是阿伯未來我們現在開始"},{"start":580.97,"end":610.23,"text":"現在開始 那個經費就是我們從社安網的那個經費來處理那一般的民眾他要怎麼申請他現在就是說你要申請那個各項育兒津貼的時候我們就請說問問問說政府現在有提供這個服務我們現在是委託各地方政府迎來所以你也是4月13號以後才會去推動這個我們現在目前應該現在就已經開始了嘛對不對 到來之後那只是說對象會擴大因為他現在比較是弱勢的"},{"start":611.35,"end":629.224,"text":"如果是個案的需求我們現在是倒載指導的部分在市安網那未來的話我想我們在少子女化的對策裡頭會擴大到一般的家庭也跟委員報告我們現在目前就是說我們也希望就是說保姆因為他都有年輕的這個經驗嘛現在來做這個育兒製造員非常非常好所以說我們這個本文的行業勞動部兩邊我們密切密切配合讓我們的這一個我們的保姆他可以有更多元的一個整個就業選擇"},{"start":640.492,"end":659.838,"text":"好,我希望就是說不要因為放寬外籍幫傭然後衝擊到本國勞工的工作機會這是我們絕對放在很優先的事情所以我們不管不只是計畫,包括相關的經費那我們都會盡量的來去做協助"},{"start":660.478,"end":686.209,"text":"好那另外就是說部長以前我們都在講說0到6歲國家一起養就是孩子那這樣的一個政策的一個轉變就是可能這個國家政策子女是國家要跟這個我們人民一起來努力一起來協助的那這樣子的話我們現在就是說放寬這個外籍幫傭好像就是說把這個育兒的這個部分就是"},{"start":687.91,"end":712.167,"text":"轉到私領域就是說好像就是把這個責任轉嫁到就是說你自己去處理這樣這種感覺就是說整個政策是不是有點轉彎不是我們並沒有轉彎是我想衛福部也很清楚這個我們的包括我們的整體的這個托育的資源包括其實就像我們也在推動這個職場的彈性化是"},{"start":714.689,"end":735.58,"text":"其实都是希望更大程度的用政府的制度去支持这些可能需要育儿或有家务需求的这个家庭那以劳动部来说我们其实也是在几周前三周前我们其实也是强化一个企业托育的政策把它提出来就是希望鼓励更多的企业投入到"},{"start":736.24,"end":755.943,"text":"托育设施里面去投资到托育设施企业投入到托育设施政府就大力的来支持企业所以这都是在扩大我们整体的托育资源公共托育资源的部分我想这部分我们不会松手而且包括卫福部包括整个行政院我们都还这还是非常非常重要的方向的对没有改变"},{"start":756.403,"end":783.589,"text":"好 那我們希望就是說今天最主要我是希望就是說我們放寬這樣的一個政策之後絕對不可以去衝擊到我們本國勞工的一個工作機會不論是保母也好或者是家事這個家庭幫傭本勞的一個家庭幫傭我覺得不要去衝擊到這樣因為確實你外籍幫傭他的這個薪資當然是比本國的勞工的薪資還低嘛"},{"start":785.165,"end":808.982,"text":"那也許他就會轉到有資格他可能就會請這個外籍幫傭這個我覺得一般的常情應該都是這樣子然後我要請一個比較熟的也不一定其實我們其實問下來也不一定因為其實因為我們做了一些訪談其實他們蠻多跟我們說其實他有這個家務幫傭的需求可是他還是會把小孩送托"},{"start":810.203,"end":830.811,"text":"因为现在托育中心跟托育机构它的功能其实很多包括对小孩的早期的发展包括其实对于一些安全的保护健康的部分其实这都是现在很多托育的功能这都不一定都是能够这个家务帮佣可以帮得上的事情所以他们都说他即便需要"},{"start":831.571,"end":858.493,"text":"外籍幫助 可是他還是會把他送托蠻多都跟我們表達這樣的事情那當然就是說我們也要持續去評估啦這個會不會造成什麼樣的影響我希望就是衛福部跟勞動部這邊都要去持續的去評估然後去看到底是不是真的會對於整個就業市場會有一些影響當然 我們會一直隨時觀察然後我想我們接下來的工作就是把配套跟支持的方案給做足是 好 謝謝"},{"start":860.495,"end":864.472,"text":"好 谢谢黄秀芳委员发言接下来请图全级委员发言"}]}},{"id":"167963","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167963","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4ec7eda7cf4a663b931db4e8dc12ee0255144d5468a2b72bfd2d8f15caca8ddabc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:33:48 - 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代理主委早 那個我想可能有一些委員都很關心我想外送平台上個禮拜發生一個大事就是說這個Glob這一個公司他預計要收購這個Full Panda那過去也才看到說Uber Eats說要用300億"},{"start":37.608,"end":66.102,"text":"台幣左右來收購Fubenda可是到最後是沒有讓它成功嘛那現在Grab這個公司它要收購它是以200億第一金額少了100億不過更重要的是其實我們站在的是消費者餐廳以及整個市場機制健全的角度來看就是說還是要避免單一群體壟斷的一個行為也因此早上我有看到說這個代理主委有時候回答是說因為現在Uber雖然是Grab的主要的股東"},{"start":67.102,"end":89.549,"text":"但是他的占比你說是只有13%左右目前就是根據財報上的資料13.5%但是他是第二大股東這裡我們公平會有注意到吧他是大股東他是第二大股東第一大股東是SoftBank如果說以現在公開的財報2024年當然2025年最近資料我可能還沒有看到但2024年最大股東他的占比多少清楚嗎"},{"start":93.223,"end":118.465,"text":"其實也只有13%換言之其實Uber它在Glob的股權來講它其實還是有所謂的應該看起來還是有所謂實質影響力因為第三大第四大是所謂的投資銀行或是說相關的像Morgan Stanley等等的部分所以本期今天點出來的問題點還是在於說後續我們公平會應該會有一個機制去看是不是會有單一聯合壟斷的狀況"},{"start":120.186,"end":122.447,"text":"所以我們會去看這個13.5所呈現出來的在企業經營上的影響程度到底有多高不會說只是用"},{"start":136.711,"end":151.542,"text":"單一的 因為我現在看到新聞這樣的畫面我會很擔心說是不是已經公平會有先入為主這一個案件了沒有 我只是要陳述一個事實13.5但是這個東西未來在審查過程當中是會被納入非常緊張所以未來接下來的這個時程會怎麼走"},{"start":152.802,"end":169.611,"text":"一直還沒送件如果說送件的話送件進來以後我們看看那個資料補得齊不齊不齊我們會叫他再補是補完以後正式啟動以起算六個月內我印象中是六個月內應該前後假設要延長的話大概三個月九十天"},{"start":170.451,"end":197.039,"text":"90天內會來做一個審核那但是在這過程裡面本席也提醒喔因為過去當然本席以往的態度為什麼我們會在未完委員會要推動外送專法也正式的讓它上線就是因為我們認為是過去外送的這個行業裡面當然先進科技也產生但是一強獨大三個比較弱外送員比較弱消費者比較弱以及餐廳比較弱這也是事實"},{"start":197.879,"end":216.649,"text":"而現在看到這種跨國企業他可以一次拿出幾百億的台幣就可以來進軍市場代表是說他其實在國際的這個資金來講他是充裕的而我們消費者外送員以及餐廳的權益就要好好的被保障所以這也是我們希望是能夠做到四方多贏的一個"},{"start":217.729,"end":233.682,"text":"成果那過去GLUB在東南亞也有一些比較不好的例子是被當地政府到最後是開罰的譬如說他用演算法來抵制低佣金的餐廳在比較熱門尖峰時段的時候他用演算法就把一些"},{"start":234.443,"end":257.923,"text":"低佣金的餐廳給遮蔽或是說排到比較後面讓消費者他可能比較沒有辦法選到這是確實已經在新加坡還是馬來西亞他們就有開罰的一個經驗所以這樣這些部分是不是公平會未來在做審議的時候也應該要用附加條件附加行為的方式來要求過去曾經在其他國家犯的過錯或是被開罰的行為不能在台灣發生"},{"start":258.598,"end":274.689,"text":"而剛剛委員點出一個重點就是過去他曾經做過的違法歷史我們是會考慮的那個考慮如果說這個違法行為非常明顯然後影響市場競爭非常嚴重在台灣那就像如同委員所講的我們不排除用負負擔當然負負擔前提是這個案子過了"},{"start":275.009,"end":303.747,"text":"但是我們現在沒有預設任何結論假設如果要通過這些過去的一些違法的事蹟我們又不排除可以在付負擔裡面去要求他必須要遵守好 謝謝戴主委有一個比較正向的回應那我只想講就是說現在因為葉子還沒有送進我們沒有任何預設立場但本期的方向是我們歡迎所有良好的企業都來投資台灣這一塊市場因為台灣這個市場大家競爭能夠讓消費者有更好的選擇可是不要有這種"},{"start":305.088,"end":328.946,"text":"過度單一壟斷的行為發生並且更重要的是過去有實力的真的已經有發生被開罰的絕對不應該在台灣來出現所以這一個案子我想去年最大案子應該就是Uber Eats跟Fupenda的一個併購但後面沒有成那今年感覺最重大的案子之一會是這一個案件那我也希望公民會以最嚴謹專業的態度來審視可以嗎我們會非常嚴謹的來審查這個案子"},{"start":333.33,"end":333.872,"text":"謝謝戴主委 我們會繼續追 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167968","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167968","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4eae0e3487e5675a6fc30e9bbc489b48f659fafa764ae08f53bcaba41c2d3d6ba95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:20:13 - 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感謝主席 我們麻煩先請呂次長麻煩呂次長"},{"start":12.488,"end":32.713,"text":"市長我想今天感謝主席提這樣子的一個很重視的相關討論那本席有看到就是說其實長照的議題啊我覺得很重要的地方是很多需要照顧的這個家庭他其實沒有辦法說直接到相關機構或是說在交通的部分這確實有落差為什麼呢因為"},{"start":34.753,"end":51.045,"text":"本席也接收到好幾個協會的陳情不管是無障礙協會等等他講說全台需要輪椅出入的族群差不多50萬到60萬這是協會給我們的一個數字但是全台可用的無障礙車輛約莫比較寬鬆的來算6000輛左右而這6000輛可能在於是無障礙計程車1000多輛"},{"start":59.051,"end":86.266,"text":"富康巴士兩千多輛還有一些部分所以其實這樣子看得出來它的一個比例相對來講有落差那另外呢又以在六都上來說可能它的計程車無障礙計程車或者說富康巴士相對來講量能比較高但是非六都以外更少了所以說其實這就是一個你想說惡性循環藥或說它就是一個長期沒有辦法補齊的一個問題那"},{"start":88.672,"end":118.01,"text":"是 那我們現在就想要救教啊因為這是一個大災問而且他可能也不是只是衛福部一個部會他可能還要連同交通部一起來協助好 所以我們現在來想是說針對這樣的問題我們是不是能夠比較明確的因為本席一開始接收到這個協會成全的時候我也很訝異啊全台灣有五六十萬需要接送或是說不管是輪椅或是身心障礙或者是這個年長者他沒有辦法移動需要接送到底這個數字精不精準"},{"start":119.778,"end":131.653,"text":"委員對於這個問題的那個推詢因為委員剛剛所說的應該主要是需求跟供給供給跟需求之間的一個不均衡嘛我們一定要先了解需求然後還有供給然後我們才能想辦法說那怎麼樣加強供給那現在有問題現在就是說委員剛剛所說的50萬這個"},{"start":136.698,"end":163.509,"text":"這個數字我覺得恐怕因為我先跟我們報告啦供給端你現在說有關於那個復康巴士那個主要就是要你要你要有那個你要有那個你要有那個身障的你要有那個身障那個鑑定嘛那身障鑑定那邊全台灣我們當然這邊有一個數字可是另外一個是失能的就是老人失能的部分高齡 失能 身障這一些都算是可能無法移動或說需要協助那本息"},{"start":164.729,"end":178.241,"text":"我講比較直接說我覺得我們應該可以怎麼做您聽聽看我們是不是來討論是不是可以用三個月的時間盤點一下各縣市到底我們現在針對高齡 失能 身障這一些廣益加起來就是"},{"start":179.662,"end":198.83,"text":"需要協助就是需要達成無障礙不管是達成無障礙計程車達成復康巴士的這個人數的需求把它給統計出來因為我之前試著想要資料但是他比較片面但如果說我們能夠第一掌握到底各縣市22縣市這一個族群有多大是不是真如協會所陳情的五六十萬人"},{"start":200.071,"end":227.17,"text":"好那再來第二步再來盤點各縣市現在有的無障礙計程車富康巴士那我們來一對之後兩相對照就可以看得出來哪個縣市其實它的缺口最大或是哪個縣市其實相對來講它的落差比較我們第二步才能想是說那我們應該怎麼樣協助那個縣市並且增加好當然我最期待的是全台灣有一個合理的比例譬如說我們常常以前提到的護病比"},{"start":228.05,"end":255.599,"text":"就是1比9那我們也期待是說是不是每個縣市都要達到一個這個叫所謂無障礙車輛比就是它有多少的需求跟多少的車輛那1比多少是合理的範圍到目前為止我們好像沒有看到衛福部或交通部有這樣的一個數字所以次長能不能承諾三個月內我們盤點出來那也許我們內部可以先討論說那我們合理的這個無障礙車輛"},{"start":257.472,"end":278.689,"text":"比例是一比多少就一台無障礙計程車可以對比譬如說十個家庭那這是一個合理的範圍或是說七個家庭等於是一個禮拜一天那一台計程車它可以服務七天沒錯沒錯是不是OK我那個我真的非常非常感謝委員齁那個對於這個問題的關心因為真的是非常非常professional那我跟委員那個報告我們來盤點"},{"start":280.35,"end":289.693,"text":"那我跟委員先報告剛剛同仁有跟我講現在就是說我們的這一個全台灣我們現在目前的聲音障礙總共有123萬那這裡面剛剛委員剛剛所說比較有一些肢體障礙總共是176709所以這個就一定的就是有關聲音障礙另外一個就是失能的失能長輩這邊我們應該都可以把它盤出來這個就是說確實你要需求要對準"},{"start":304.598,"end":322.255,"text":"要準確的估計這樣我們還有各縣市的分佈所以我們才能來做政策嘛這個沒問題這個我們來那另外一個也跟委員報告就是說其實事實上在那個生權小組還有在社會福利推動委員會其實很多團體也在推事實上我知道也有這個像林月琴委員她也一直在質詢這個問題目前供給端這邊我跟委員報告確實是有正出多門的問題比如說"},{"start":328.14,"end":354.803,"text":"富康巴士誰管無障礙計程車誰管無障礙計程車的話事實上是交通局那我跟委員報告就是說我們現在目前在研擬一個就是國外其實事實上要這邊有兩個痛點第一個事實上是尖峰的問題就是說你特別是就醫跟這些的話這個可能這是一個問題另外一個事實上一定要有一個類似像這個所謂的call center的一個設計就是說就是派錢嘛然後不要讓閒置的人力浪費"},{"start":355.904,"end":371.348,"text":"市長剛剛我們講三個月我們盤點出來那我們三個月後再來因為林月琴委員剛剛您都提到了所以我想我召委一定很關心這個議題那您先請回不好意思召委既然聽到你的名字再給我兩分鐘吧洪部長洪部長來啦洪部長拜託我請洪部長上來一下好不好因為每一個人的時間大家都一樣我知道"},{"start":378.149,"end":398.852,"text":"我看到黃秀芳委員也真的講蠻久沒有 她是我們本委因為我覺得外委我們都是一致本委跟外委我們不能差那麼多我關心的議題因為你現在用到的也會變成事實上是跟本委的時間會是一樣的對 但是 趙偉因為其實我剛剛我可以打斷次長我讓次長把他講完但是其實我今天關心兩個議題每一個委員都是一樣那一個 這個議題也很重要我是不是能夠好不好"},{"start":400.165,"end":405.367,"text":"我想我們立法院就是要好好的讓民眾的聲音能夠被聽見嘛如果說這樣我們自我都限縮的話那我這樣也覺得說"},{"start":418.733,"end":434.747,"text":"我想行政部門應該不會抗拒或是害怕我們的質詢吧但我也不是要針對性部長我們在這一個上個會期我們有通過了外送專法這我們共同努力的那上個禮拜其實有一個很大的事件就是外送平台又說要用相對的收購的部分"},{"start":435.327,"end":456.98,"text":"那Glob這個平台它其實在過去東南亞也有一些不管是說劣跡也好市跡也好它確實它是很強的一個平台也強一個APP那我現在只想講因為很多外送人家也擔心說未來會不會變成是又是壟斷的一個部分所以外送專法通過之後相關的執法以及最重要大家認為很大的重點"},{"start":457.76,"end":483.17,"text":"透明度 就演算法的透明度 是不是要在執法裡面可以說明一下 現在的程度去年外送專法通過以後 現在相關的執法目前如火如荼的正在訂立中也在跟不管是外送員的社群 或者是跟平台的社群各方有沒有納入可以要求 因為我們那時候一直強調我們現在是地板 但是我們要的是說看到它的演算法透明度"},{"start":483.45,"end":494.268,"text":"因為他演算法一遍再遍其實對外送員對餐廳很沒有保障所以我們就是依照我們去年三讀通過的法律在訂立相關的制度什麼時候可以出來呢來用麥克風好不好市長來"},{"start":497.896,"end":519.728,"text":"那應該是年中吧這個年中現在已經三月囉對啊所以說六月底以前可以出來執法執法有需要再公告嗎要要再公告所以我們六月底以前可以看到執法還有一些相關的預告作業相關法的部分我們再請教但是我要求六月中就六月底以前要出來"},{"start":520.808,"end":542.558,"text":"不是你要不要求是我們原本就在這個方向進這本來就是我們要求我要求勞動部一定要如實做到我們委員會所通過我們會依照我們會依照三讀通過的法律好好的來定好沒有問題那我就看六月六月底我們再來追謝謝謝謝洪孟愷委員接下來我們休息20分鐘用餐"}]}},{"id":"167967","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167967","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4ec0e83b5f328c1840c30e9bbc489b48f659fafa764ae08f5331d4186e9443af555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"12:13:07 - 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你有做嗎有在進行我也覺得"},{"start":58.974,"end":82.285,"text":"可是已經宣布了不是 跟委員說明第一個因為性別相關的這些評估是行政院的性評會提出要求的所以我們會在下一次行政院性評會的時候把報告定稿提到性評會裡面我希望不要太針對性就是性別跟人權評估不要太針對性如果要做就是原則上來做不是原則上來做 是要做"},{"start":82.765,"end":97.976,"text":"要做 部長那上個會期其實我已經跟您提到了就是說這個政策當時我問你多少人那因為那時候沒有官方數字我是用學術界資料那當然今天你估出144萬戶可能受賄不是不是不是144萬戶可能受賄是"},{"start":98.717,"end":113.221,"text":"他們符合有就是至少符合這個條件申請的資格符合條件可是他還要看他的意願包括他的能力包括他家庭空間所以並不是我不敢說這114萬因為這個相對因為成本那剛剛前面的委員都提到相對這個成本是高的那負擔的起的是有限的我們認為可能是前20%才有能力來處理那所以我們會懷疑說這個到底是全民政策還是真的幫助"},{"start":126.544,"end":144.875,"text":"比較相對高收入的家庭等於用相對廉價的勞動力來達到這個多元說明其實在很多照顧喪志的政策它本來就會是分眾的所以它不是只是靠單一個政策可以解決所有人的問題那你有評估過嗎會有不同的政策去處理不同的痛點需求"},{"start":145.695,"end":162.605,"text":"所以的確有一群人是有這個需求沒有錯但也有人也有其他勞工有別的需求我們也為他設計其他的政策有資格但是未必是要甚至我了解但是我想先請教勞動部你有能力引進多少家庭這個外籍幫助人你有多少能力能夠引進來你有盤點過或插盤推演過嗎"},{"start":165.747,"end":194.141,"text":"跟委員說這不是要說我有能力引進多少但是的確我們也是在跟我們的母國這個來源的母國來討論因為我跟委員說因為就像之前在談這個免巴士量表的議題的時候我們其實當時其實也跟來源母國來討論是不是能夠擴大這個來源的這個來源量跟來源母國來做討論所以我們也跟他討論了幾個月的這個時間所以這一併是會有很多的配套要進行的"},{"start":194.807,"end":209.355,"text":"不是 我知道當然你們同時在做這些是很辛苦但是我總要問你 你說我們沙盤推廣過你有能力引進多少那大概再來看我們需求多少因為這個變成國家政策第一個是我們認為這個申請的它可能會是比較漸進式的不好意思 那個請衛副次長也能夠上來一起"},{"start":213.437,"end":229.271,"text":"因為衛福部規劃最近最快今年4、5月開放醫院要聘這個外籍互佐要減輕護理師的壓力所以這個部分也是跟勞動部有關的請問現在是次長請問次長你覺得我們要多少人力才夠外籍互佐已經宣布了報告委員我們會開放是中階勞動力不是那個技術人力不是這個外籍互佐沒有"},{"start":242.045,"end":253.971,"text":"所以在第四四五月你規劃是這個時候要因為要外籍護醫院聘嘛醫院需要外籍護佐當然有一些阻力可是衛福部已經講了其實我都有數字119年前要2000人我跟委員報告我們在長照這邊確實在夜間人力這邊我們會引進外籍"},{"start":264.076,"end":279.424,"text":"總結勞動力這個是確定的市長您現在是否認說有外籍戶左這件事嗎因為當然護理師本身有很多的關注跟委員報告是外籍照服員不是戶左照服員"},{"start":280.527,"end":299.555,"text":"那也是勞動部要影響嗎我們現在知道的資料是應該是衛福部的住院整合計畫這一支計畫裡面要有外籍的補佐員應該不是外籍補佐你們彼此的政策有互相理解嗎"},{"start":301.135,"end":306.097,"text":"你們有做橫向的聯繫嗎我們收到的資料是他們是住院整合照護計畫這個計畫裡面會有一個比較像是照顧的輔佐"},{"start":318.021,"end":321.242,"text":"但是他一樣要有專業跟語言上面的訓練所以不是外籍互左部長我再談一下這個泰伯他開除工會幹部的時候你看看這個左邊這個投影片勞動部說絕不容忍那部長你知道最近泰伯不斷的透過媒體跟輿論等各種方法來試圖打壓工會董事長甚至祭出一億元的獎金"},{"start":345.549,"end":350.752,"text":"鼓勵社會各界來輸出資方或打壓工會那勞動部隊這個資方這些動作有處理嗎因為你當時說絕不容忍啊你看這個標題我請市長來說明我們現在那個進入裁決的時候然後請簡短說明"},{"start":361.198,"end":377.957,"text":"另外一個報告目前他工會有提出兩個裁決申請案第一個案子有關教唆會員退會的這個部分我們會在4月17號再召開一次詢問會議後會盡快的做一個裁決決定第二有關是解雇理事長這個案子我們也受理了那我們也盡快的審理也會盡快的來做處理"},{"start":379.598,"end":386.726,"text":"你們不可以冷眼旁觀我們絕對是依法處理部長我最後一個提醒是少子化的社會會仰賴更多的移工移工的勞錢問題會越來越多如果勞動部沒有做好準備整個國際都非常關心我們非常關注這部分"},{"start":399.398,"end":407.467,"text":"影響我們的很多貿易協定尤其是大家現在在談強迫勞動尤其捷安特是一個非常重要的例子這個前車之鑒那請勞動部多加注意謝謝兩位接下來請侯孟愷委員發言"}]}},{"id":"167966","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167966","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4ed7d77a0ab4306366c30e9bbc489b48f659fafa764ae08f53ff30f6c757e0e6d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:04:02 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這兩天其實大家就是非常比較緊張的是有關於在中東戰爭而造成了包含油價的高漲 還有天然氣那雖然我們政府採取了一些措施但是現在在市面上有所謂的塑膠袋之亂"},{"start":36.445,"end":48.514,"text":"那當然這裡面因為這個塑膠用品實在用途實在太廣了那尤其也影響到我們的藥材就是醫療器材的部分那我想"},{"start":51.996,"end":73.291,"text":"那我想请问一下因为在3月23号食药署对外的说法说没有短缺一切都很OK而且呢业者都有库存可是到了3月26号按照这个部长的说法说那现在要准备不排除动用200亿的特别预算"},{"start":73.991,"end":81.658,"text":"所以我想請問一下在短短的這段時間其實每一天都瞬息萬變到目前為止衛福部有沒有會同經濟部來做包含庫存的調查價錢的調查以免"},{"start":92.047,"end":113.574,"text":"造成包含中盤商在做操作這些供需或者是價格而不要造成說整個的在第一線消費市場的混亂我想請問衛福部現在有沒有跟經濟部來做共同的防範或者是來做這個產業的調查"},{"start":115.274,"end":139.481,"text":"非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心我跟委員的回答是我們現在跟經濟部這邊我們有兩部的一個協商那我們現在等一下下午其實部長他現在目前就是趕往行政院跟經濟部那邊要處理這個問題召開緊急會議反正就是我們現在目前我們都持續在因應這個問題那我跟委員報告三個重點第一個跟委員剛剛所說的醫材的部分主要就您剛剛說塑膠包材跟塑膠粒"},{"start":141.121,"end":168.336,"text":"那這裡面會影響到譬如像我們現在目前像輸入醫啦或者說洗腎液統等等這些或者塑膠醫療器材那這個裡面當然主要現在目前國內石化這邊主要當然我們主要是像台塑等等這些我們也跟我跟委員報告其實我們昨天也有跟台塑那邊也有一些討論那台塑他們那邊現在目前就是優先現在目前就是上游的部分他們會優先是優先供給國內的需求特別是我們優先以醫材為主"},{"start":169.717,"end":186.814,"text":"你這邊優先一採那一般的廠商說塑膠袋很嚴重那有些建材說我們的建材都沒有了這個當然我們政府這邊會做我現在要回答現在就是說我們現在目前有在跟上游廠商在做"},{"start":187.214,"end":194.338,"text":"是的沒錯 然後這裡面這是第一個回答第二個回答就剛剛委員剛剛所說的我們也估了這原料成本佔比大概25%那這裡面必須要但是我們認為最重要應該要從原料供應端這個是我們的整個策略"},{"start":202.842,"end":221.276,"text":"這樣的話用這種方式的話就等於從最上游那邊就可以來處理那這裡面所需要會有需要一些費用確實第三點就是剛剛委員剛剛說也非常感謝大院的一個支持有一個我們就是去年通過因應國際形勢強化經濟社會以民生兩百億的對那我們就從這邊用這筆錢來做為這一筆所以三個回答"},{"start":226.019,"end":243.056,"text":"昨天其實我也有問經濟部長我的具體的建議因為現在是非常時期所以我建議在上游廠商的部分應該採取非常的手段比如暫時性的在上游廠商這些材料的部分就是不要出口"},{"start":243.977,"end":245.959,"text":"那但是經營部長沒有答應我他說現在用勸導的方式可是我覺得應該是優先國內的廠商那因為別說衛福部比較擔心的就是這個醫材的部分對但是我剛剛講還有其他各產業他們都有一些塑膠製品"},{"start":262.711,"end":279.698,"text":"甚至一般的市場的這個小攤商或麵包商說我的塑膠袋都買不到或塑膠袋很貴一個禮拜漲一次等等之類所以大家都在搶貨可能政府某一個程度他要做一些非常的措施第二個就是我認為我們經濟部跟衛福部要聯手"},{"start":283.519,"end":310.686,"text":"要調查相關的庫存我剛才特別講你不可能說23號告訴你說啊都有庫存通通沒有缺貨到26號就要召開緊急會議那這三天在做什麼我覺得這一點這個院眼前的這個必須解決所以我也建議經濟部長說他要有這個魄力一週內塑膠袋滋亂全部平息沒有這些讓大家有哄抬的機會好那另外就是先時間暫停一下我請我們的"},{"start":313.028,"end":313.952,"text":"那洪生翰部長"},{"start":321.158,"end":342.034,"text":"好 部長還有次長我們一起請教一下那其實我自己都有宣示過凡是能夠解決少子化的政策我一律都非常支持那我想請問一下我們在台北市有一個育兒減少工時計畫那就是你可以減食但是不減薪"},{"start":343.235,"end":356.331,"text":"至少到目前為止我所知道他們已經有200多家的企業去申請而且就是整個的回應的效果是非常好那我想請問一下我們中央有沒有可能考慮跟進"},{"start":358.715,"end":387.855,"text":"跟委員說其實我們關於一些職場彈性化的做法其實我們其實也有蠻多的眼裡比方說現在以日來請暈留庭的做法其實的確成效是非常好的然後在這個成效下其實我們也在思考接下來如何在這個職場的彈性讓大家可以兼顧家庭跟兼顧工作之間然後有更多的擴大的使用我們目前其實也在做相關的工作"},{"start":388.175,"end":406.664,"text":"因為剛才有討論到12歲以下可以僱請這個外籍的看護但是事實上不是看護我知道就是幫傭外籍幫傭但是呢其實如果按照我們當時80歲以上免巴士兩表因為當時你們說有10萬名這個不得了啦會衝擊啊等等之類但是事實上市場並沒有像你們所講的這麼大的需求"},{"start":416.568,"end":439.253,"text":"也就是其實這些成本造成其實並不是所有的家庭都可以不管是老的或小的他都可以去申請一個外籍的幫傭所以我才特別去講到就是說在這個怎麼樣比如說你是一個彈性的工時的時間台北市的這樣的一個做法可不可以讓"},{"start":440.713,"end":459.997,"text":"這個中央也來做一個考慮因為並不是所有的人所有的家庭他都可以去申請因為其實算下來每個月大概都是要這個三四萬的一個成本另外我在這邊因為我看到我們的主席站起來我最後一個"},{"start":462.318,"end":465.78,"text":"這個建議因為呢現在有提出來就是要把這個外籍的這個移工也納入這個就是勞保費那我覺得必須去考慮到我們一般的家庭到底能不能負擔我們的雇主能不能負擔像今年我們的健保就是我們的健保費的這個費率提高其實就已經造成很多的雇主他的支出就已經提高了"},{"start":490.234,"end":513.86,"text":"所以我們在這裡必須要幫我們廣大的這些僱主來講他們的心聲就是如果這成本一直不停的跌高的話那麼這個成本會很高謝謝謝謝主席我簡單回應汪委員好不好我可以簡單回應第一件事情是我們其實現在也在研議其實對於很多這個家庭類的僱主希望有更多的支持的方案跟措施"},{"start":514.6,"end":538.559,"text":"這部分我們其實也跟衛福部其實我們也一直在其實我跟次長一直在做這個事情的討論就是希望能夠讓這些家庭的僱主包括尤其是他的會遇到一些空窗期能不能再進一步的縮短會有更多其他人力上面的支持這部分我們在研議中好還有這個成本上面不要再繼續疊加好不好謝謝好謝謝王宏威委員發言接下來請陳昭之委員發言"}]}},{"id":"167975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e0d49ed51af780c6dc30e9bbc489b48f67c21d93b3021e0bf12eae036270d068b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:44:17 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謝謝主席 有請洪部長有請洪部長 沈部長你休息一下一個鐘頭的時候再叫你 好 謝謝部長今天 謝謝主席特別排這個在職照顧者的知識體系視我完善然後長照3.0服務輸送與長照安排價的評估那從早上到現在不曉得部長聽到這麼多委員的意見有沒有評估出來的"},{"start":33.109,"end":61.043,"text":"那個跟劉遠說明就是剛剛其實我們一直在跟衛福部也在討論其實對於現在是長照的制度新的制度上路以後那接下來民眾尤其是受僱勞工他還會遇到的一些狀況包括他可能需要等待的時間或者是需要協助的樣態那我們希望有一個進一步的盤點以後那我們就一併的一起來評估說是不是要透過職場的制度工作的制度來去加以給予幫助跟支持"},{"start":61.443,"end":82.691,"text":"他會有一個評估的過程跟邏輯我是請教你說因為從一早到現在嘛對不對那你回答我最後就是有一個評估跟邏輯我聽不太懂意思當然一定要評估啊就是說你現在你內心從早上聽到現在是不是有一個方向一個範圍"},{"start":84.612,"end":109.415,"text":"我自己的內心當然我們當然認為也不是我自己的內心包括我們其實部裡面我想包括現在其實相關的部會其實都希望要因為照顧而離職的勞工可以減少我覺得這是一個最重要的方向因為我們最不樂見的事情就是勞工因為他要做家庭的照顧而必須被迫離開職場這其實對我們整體的勞動力產業的發展都不是好事"},{"start":109.855,"end":133.957,"text":"我想這件事情是我們一個很重要的初衷的邏輯跟原則在這個地方那至於進行或者現在大家討論到是長照的安排要是假還是留庭還是用各種其他的做法我想這部分我們就是需要跟衛福部再做更進一步的討論所以簡單講你的內心深處到現在就是還沒有辦法做一個定奪啦應該是這樣嘛因為我們看不進你的內心所以你講出來的時候就是還是沒有結論啦"},{"start":134.517,"end":154.028,"text":"就是制度要走哪一個路徑去幫忙這件事情的確還需要演繹對啦 演繹多久其實今天因為剛剛委員會的時候林耀群委員其實有一個提案那大概會有三個月的時間其實我們對於相關的可行性會做出一些演繹三個月對 就是今天早上的提案對對 我知道 會不會太久了"},{"start":155.311,"end":178.124,"text":"你的內心會不會感受到這樣是有點過久了?是不是需要縮短一些時間?當然提讓我們尊重啦我為什麼這麼講?因為你自己講的也非常清楚嘛這個數據應該是正確嘛家庭照顧者公園總會提供的全國231萬的勞工有五分之一因為照顧私人私自身心障礙家人而影響工作"},{"start":178.764,"end":198.559,"text":"每年約有13.3萬因照顧離職這是勞動部的資料所以我們也是在這個基礎下面去做這些思考那這個數據如果是正確你看一年你引進多少外勞現在一年嘛 淨增加的大概幾萬大概3萬3、4萬你說國外引進3萬 近3萬左右也沒關係嘛 對不對那我們每年一會這樣"},{"start":206.451,"end":222.656,"text":"要照顧兒離子的13.3萬你再怎麼進是3萬多你因照顧兒離子13萬多你看這個落差多大所以台灣永遠在缺工啊怎麼補你都補不到啊 補不滿嘛補不足啊"},{"start":223.789,"end":245.311,"text":"這是現狀,這是現實嘛所以今天我想這個絕對不是要單純你跟衛福部部長兩個有共識之後的一個處理啦我覺得這個是可能要拉到整個院的層級來看待台灣的勞動力整體因為這一塊那個缺角的擴大的範圍是越來越嚴重"},{"start":247.077,"end":260.727,"text":"還是你可以跟我講說三個月評估轉之後我們可能下半年度還是明年開始我們每年不會因為要照顧失能失智身心障礙的家人離此的這樣的一個數額他是會"},{"start":264.073,"end":274.848,"text":"明年開始可能會減大致上剩下10萬那你剩下10萬那你補消融過來那就還好我這麼講我這麼講是也沒有算是很精準但是只是看到這個數據我們用數據來做對比來做評估來做因應嘛"},{"start":283.82,"end":309.052,"text":"因為我這邊可能沒有辦法跟你說明年就一定會怎麼樣因為都是缺工缺到非常非常的嚴重嘛對不對所以我說我們希望在這裡因為其實剛剛我們在講的很多的概念其實我也都是完全同意的那也是我們的一個方向跟目標但對於具體的做法跟制度的路徑那要做哪個選擇這的確我們會需要一點時間來去做這部分的評論而且這也是需要跨部會的討論"},{"start":311.415,"end":318.991,"text":"我再用一個對照,我是覺得部長絕對有那個魄力,包含市部長都是非常有魄力,做事情的這種因應的"},{"start":322.951,"end":346.302,"text":"過去累積上的經驗我看到都是很正面的也是很快速的你看你承擔起來有拿出破例再改革就會看到成果一月期運營假從過去必須一個月然後申請單位一個月改為一日來申請所以將近兩個月而已藍心的申請比例從過去的全年27.8%大幅增加到44.3%"},{"start":348.523,"end":367.701,"text":"女性從72.2 降到55.6這兩個剛好合起來就男性提高16點多女性降16點多也讓整個照顧小朋友的責任不會只有著重在女性的身上對新手爸媽而言我想這個對家庭的整個融合啦然後對小朋友的親子等等等"},{"start":368.331,"end":390.301,"text":"其實都是很正向的這樣的發展這個就是有魄力啊這個就是政策趕快來做不管從幾個面向來做處理的時候那一實施出來我們就看到這樣的一個效益跟成果的展現嘛所以我才會在總執行的時候也特別跟院長提這個事情嘛然後也希望說原本到0到3歲那我們很多的這種規範是0到6歲那為什麼不能提高到6歲"},{"start":395.223,"end":414.141,"text":"對不對部長也欣然的答應我所以我們其實現在也在對於要把這個適用的範圍擴大然後再做研擬對這個我們就可以這麼快速來做營業來做處理也看到這樣成效那我們現在全國缺工這麼嚴重然後每年還要引進外勞將近三萬出"},{"start":417.074,"end":433.95,"text":"左右然後你們又要去開放這個什麼這個家庭的外勤辦公室12歲以下的今天有很多人提出這樣的一個討論嘛對不對而且不論這個政策的精準與否嘛那我們可以看到我記得市長那天有講一句話"},{"start":435.171,"end":459.522,"text":"他是這麼講,這是理事長答覆的各國生育率涉及因素複雜,提高生育率並列為放寬家庭幫庸的主要政策目標護療戰略也不是考量重點,因為已經有其他政策在推動女性老三率了開放外籍幫庸是在眾多協助安心續留的政策裡面再多加一項選擇"},{"start":461.281,"end":484.217,"text":"這你們初中講話嘛 安心續留 安心續留難道不是用於在本勞的身上嗎這個我們就好像事業你們就要處理的嘛 對不對 就要執行的嘛那你跟我講你這個研擬多久啊 評估多久啊 在你內心深處啊 放了多久嘛"},{"start":487.987,"end":512.299,"text":"今天還要有勞林月琴、渣偉再提一個臨時提案要求你們三個月他有沒有刺激到你的內心深處對廣泛的每年因為要照顧家人不管是知識人身心障礙而必須被迫離職的13.3萬的勞工而言情何以堪"},{"start":513.663,"end":541.064,"text":"每天有十幾萬欸十幾萬 十幾萬 十幾萬欸你一天補三萬 補三萬 補三萬三天有超過超過差三十萬欸所以你站不站不站得這麼嚴重的時候站在勞動的主管機關人力的整個這樣的一個穩定安心蓄流的權穩之下這事情你沒有辦法在你的內心深處放太久欸"},{"start":544.482,"end":569.87,"text":"今天沒有排這個案,坦白講,很多事情我們沒有辦法去凸顯出來,那今天已經排出來了,大家就從各個角度來做一個思考。我就單純從這個角度,因為台灣欠到你想不到的嚴重就對了。然後以農業外勞而言,大家都非常清楚嘛,對不對。那頭照有照到什麼程度?"},{"start":571.708,"end":590.859,"text":"然後這幾天的媒體陸續在報導以前淘寶外勞就是補足農業這個勞力不足的部分那農民部這邊也積極的在統一主管機關的申請的量能在擴大人數在擴大嘛但是怎麼擴大你都補不夠啊你都補不夠,那一十萬"},{"start":597.591,"end":616.702,"text":"將近十萬以下,你一年我就補多少六千,每年又六千以下你不是每年六六千喔那個落差,現在一萬的話還是一萬八萬計,差不多一萬五左右上下嘛對不對然後現在實際上有在台灣的農田裡面實際上的這些逃跑外勞將四十萬左右"},{"start":618.536,"end":627.359,"text":"你如果不處理暗示,遇到疫情的時候還不敢處理,現在是要處理,現在還浪漫時期,還浪漫時期,現在你不處理暗示的時候,這個逃走在我們台灣的國土裡面,已經有一定天堂的經驗了,所以他還自己活著,白天在台灣的農民宿營,"},{"start":648.843,"end":664.955,"text":"工廠會介紹你快做、快整、快修、快處理可能都中了因為不知道他看不到他未來在台灣還可以待多少天拚一天賺一天就是多一天"},{"start":666.243,"end":683.36,"text":"那這樣的惡性循環情況之下,很多的台灣的榮業狀況,它就會持續惡性的循環,不停止啦。好,我把這個問題拉回來,我是對照說,你針對這一個"},{"start":686.024,"end":702.299,"text":"應價的整體的這樣的一個放寬然後鼓勵更多的這些新手的爸爸媽媽來提出這樣的申請我們看到這樣成效所以我們希望下半年度我們就可以擴大這樣的一個範圍跟鏈局讓更多人都有這樣的"},{"start":704.101,"end":728.178,"text":"這樣的一個機會來提出這個申請對整體社會而言對每一個家庭而言都是一個正向的事情那我們現在要來處理這些非常辛苦的期待可以提出這個照顧假申請的我們勞工的朋友我覺得我們的速度一定要加快不會自己來演繹你看嘛日本我們多都是仿照日本對照日本比較日本學習日本"},{"start":729.099,"end":758.168,"text":"人家1999年就提出93天的有薪照顧假他們是在2008年邁入超高齡社會人家鐵渣高檔人家做這些事情這坦白講我是用一個數據來做比較不一定進入到超高齡社會才必須要做這些事情但是台灣是2025嘛進到超高齡社會我們沒有提早我們還是7天並7天的試假真的有道理"},{"start":760.162,"end":778.048,"text":"對不對,七天,又多一個七天,你要看留言嗎?我幫你看看,今天你宣導的留言,在去年的十月十三,播一個宣傳家庭照顧假的文章,那請部長看嘛,照顧假就照顧假,試假就試假,為什麼要一起計算,讓人之有機會在那邊囉哩啪嗦。"},{"start":780.045,"end":788.889,"text":"然後主管不准部署請照顧假說他的單位不准請就是只能以施加7天還對部署瘋狂咆哮標罵不然就滾去別單位所以以部長的積極做事的態度跟那個因應的"},{"start":808.966,"end":834.098,"text":"處理的方式我覺得這件事情真的不能拖了是真的不會拖了我們會盡快來研議產業或許有一些不一樣的意見產業也缺工啊你這個育嬰價的部分其實你調查起來是產業基本上也都支持嘛"},{"start":835.36,"end":846.627,"text":"那天在院會答詢的時候花了一些力氣說服所以在你的累積經驗裡面只要花了一些力氣應該就可以來說服這個家庭照顧假應該"},{"start":850.534,"end":872.516,"text":"應該可以快速的來做一個提高吧把這個換回去,把這個任期讓台灣的勞工不用再看到這種數據每年因為有13.3萬就五分之一的勞工,五分之一的勞工裡面又有13.3萬因為要照顧家裡的,甚至是等對象而被迫離職"},{"start":874.781,"end":895.087,"text":"我們如果這個會期可以決定把辦拿出來部長的內心深處應該是朝這個方向那我們下半年度就可以實施那我們明年就可以馬上看到成效我們會努力啦,我們會努力OK?我們會努力"},{"start":905.108,"end":908.496,"text":"OK 拜拜"}]}},{"id":"167972","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167972","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4ee6efb9a9f776c023c30e9bbc489b48f6f5ed79e3d4a2dc6bc85f38e9dc6d1ac45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"13:20:22 - 13:27:01","影片長度":"00:06:39","會議時間":"2026-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部長及勞動部部長就「在職照顧者支持體系是否完善、長照3.0服務輸送與長照安排假評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月25日及26日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-03-26","start_time":"2026-03-26T13:20:22+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-26T13:27:01+08:00","duration":399,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.806593750000001,"end":8.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.29534375,"end":15.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.286593750000002,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.273468750000003,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.41659375,"end":19.825343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.36971875,"end":19.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.399093750000002,"end":20.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.090968750000002,"end":29.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.297218750000003,"end":24.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.95534375,"end":25.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.305343750000002,"end":26.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.27096875,"end":58.047218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.22346875,"end":37.409093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.80034375,"end":45.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.41846875,"end":144.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.54846875,"end":166.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.16096875000002,"end":168.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.69659375,"end":280.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.66971875000002,"end":179.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.26159375,"end":198.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.96284375000002,"end":247.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.61721875,"end":271.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.60846875000004,"end":273.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.75971875,"end":277.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.56096875000003,"end":360.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.96971875,"end":284.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.40534375000004,"end":385.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.01534375,"end":370.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.63346875,"end":384.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.20284375,"end":396.37409375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.307,"end":17.715,"text":"謝謝主席有請次長你要部長還是次長 次長 先次長我還是要提醒大家真的 部長也可以啦都好 部長好啊好啊"},{"start":21.141,"end":21.922,"text":"我們現在的覆蓋率其實也高達84%"},{"start":45.971,"end":72.247,"text":"那我想 但是這個84這個數字很漂亮但是其實背後我想要幫一群人來講話這一群人是不是沒有真正的被接觸其實就是我們所謂的三明治族群那因為現在少子化所以其實有很多的重擔都落在這個三明治族群下有小 上有老但是他們其實也是我們社會當中的企業的這個中間的分子同時也是最依賴的這個最重要的一個戰力"},{"start":73.308,"end":97.663,"text":"那我想在這個韶智樺剛剛提到這個這樣子的一個結構跟衝擊之下有時候我們要承擔來自這個父母親的晚年的健康但是我們還要承擔孩子們的未來所以其實這個我們的三明治族群很辛苦但我們現在的制度真的有讓他們可以不需要在這個孝順或者是在工作之間可能我們要在工作或者是在家庭這兩者合而為一嗎還是兩者我們真的不用讓他們二選一"},{"start":101.565,"end":111.67,"text":"那我想這個是值得我們去思考的那我想這個長照服務不是只有申請就馬上會到位他其實還包含我要失能的發聲醫療的處置還要貧欠的評估最後的結果最後實際服務進場這中間啊"},{"start":120.635,"end":143.866,"text":"中間啊有一段好長的空窗期這個空窗期就是我們這些三明治族群最辛苦的時候因為他還要兼顧工作可是他還要拋這些所謂的程序對於一個從來沒有經過所謂的長照的這個照護者的訓練的這些所謂的三明治族群這個對他們來講是很大很大的一個"},{"start":144.666,"end":166.082,"text":"肩膀上的負擔啦 體力上的負擔啦心理層面上的負擔啦請問我們衛福部我們真的在這個部分有沒有幫他們有一個支持的一個制度能夠讓他們在轉弦的這樣子的一個部分也能夠為我們的我們一直在講長照3.0我們一直在講我們要照顧很多人問題是這一群人有沒有被接觸"},{"start":169.306,"end":193.383,"text":"跟委員說明確實就是這個從這個病一個事件到他後面落入長照服務中間這個空窗盡量把它縮短所以我們現在從兩個方面一個就是在醫院的住院過程當中那個轉協就是叫做出備出院準備服務這裡去銜接長照服務那過去大概從出院到長照"},{"start":194.223,"end":216.434,"text":"進來大概在這個2.0之前大概是要51天那現在我們去年大概縮短到4天左右平均3.66天那我們今年是希望再往前推進這個讓它縮短到兩天這個大概是我們希望能夠盡快去讓它縮短最終目的就是無縫接軌啦那當然第二個也必須這個"},{"start":218.775,"end":246.844,"text":"要有這個評估就是在這個剛剛您提到的長照需求評估那個評估的時候通常也需要有家屬在旁邊所以這個是剛剛為什麼今天我們會有這個什麼照顧假這個的討論那當然另外一個銜接的部分是我們在做你還是會這個住院的時候需要可能一下子就需要你還沒有長照之前可能就需要住院的生活照顧了"},{"start":247.824,"end":270.572,"text":"那我們就是推動這個叫全整合性的這個住院照護就是由照服員直接進到醫院來那麼用一對多的方式來服務那這個已經做了兩年成績也還不錯那但是過去礙於預算規模比較小大概在5000床左右所以我們今年把它擴大希望從過去的5.6億一年到"},{"start":273.593,"end":294.205,"text":"就是希望也來銜接住讓這個大家不用請假來住院顧這個病人好 但是剛剛其實也委員特別有提到啦其實我們的長照安排假我想可能要請一下這個我們的審判部長我想這個長照安排假的這個必要性那我提到一點"},{"start":294.725,"end":314.935,"text":"就是過去我們可以說大家多子多孫多福氣這個兄弟姐妹可以大家一起輪流來照顧其實真的就會所謂的比較不會有少子化的問題但現在不是現在真的不是然後再來我們講四成的雇主其實認同長照安排價的一個必要性他們也認為其實要留住這些所謂的比較資深的一些中階的幹部對公司來講是"},{"start":317.156,"end":335.764,"text":"有更好的一個有利的一個發展齁那但是問題是我們現在在這個目前性別平等工作法當中的家庭照顧假只有7天然後另外呢跟我們的市價並起來大概就是14天但是我要提到一點齁我們大家也思考一下就是長照安排假其實不是要全職的看護"},{"start":336.664,"end":356.885,"text":"而是有時候真的突然突發事件的時候他可能會需要兩三個小時比較零碎的破碎的一個時間但是我們怎麼樣在短暫的讓他們能夠在接手照顧工作同時安排妥當之後他能夠再重新的返回職場那這段的緩衝期我們的支持抱歉 部長我把你叫起來你可能沒時間 等我"},{"start":361.409,"end":385.005,"text":"我跟郭文維回答就像剛剛時務長說的因為現在長照3.0其實也正在努力的盡量大幅縮短這些相關的空窗或者是需協處的時間那我們會來看衛福部他會針對長照3.0後的這些需求的樣態做出評估以後我們再來綜合思考是不是要透過一些工作的制度職場的適度來去回應這樣的需求那這需要一個綜合評估的過程"},{"start":385.265,"end":395.824,"text":"好那我們希望盡快如果有一些比較具體的一些計畫或者是進程再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝郭玉琴委員發言接下來請楊耀委員發言"}]}},{"id":"167971","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167971","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e9bb34d4d922e419ac30e9bbc489b48f6f5ed79e3d4a2dc6bc85f38e9dc6d1ac45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"13:09:52 - 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你不用趕啊女士啊 會不會覺得只有20分鐘午餐你吃過了沒沒有 20分鐘午餐不是很健康啦可見我們胃環的政務官不但腦袋靈光 身體也要健康 祝福你好 幹嘛問這個問題 健康有關的來 下一題"},{"start":52.814,"end":65.848,"text":"廚師不碰錢可以降低餐飲的污染風險嗎人家第一個反應是廚師不碰錢餐廳會賠錢不是是因為調理人員不可以同時接觸金錢是不是這樣子去年鬧的軒然大波衛務部有沒有接到電話詢問啊為什麼最高罰兩億欸我養豬仔到最電燈這樣才罰兩億我全部給你好不好但是有沒有影響"},{"start":74.153,"end":98.054,"text":"鈔票 英幣有多張 有什麼葛蘭市 楊氏郡 葡萄球郡 聯合郡 對不對雖然我們兩個都不是專業的 但我想你懂啦所以後來我們衛福部有在推這個嗎但是我直接問你啦 在國外旅遊醫院有沒有用過這種叫做自助獸營點餐機你可以用行動支付 也可以用現鈔 也可以點餐這樣會不會就可以滿足衛福部的要求"},{"start":99.148,"end":106.219,"text":"可以嘛 但是我們期待所有的小吃店都裝這個欸 乾脆不會糾結 只靠宣傳推廣夠不夠"},{"start":107.718,"end":127.954,"text":"不夠好來我們看那衛部會怎麼做往下看衛部呢我們的地方的衛生局呢重點稽查的對象包括有重大食安隱憂的啦熱門的啦特定場所的我們有九種樣態會怎樣會要優先稽查高強度去稽查對不對這合理嗎從風險管控的方式這些我們多去查反過來說來下一個"},{"start":129.975,"end":154.624,"text":"那如果你又符合GHP的就是你有優的或良的那麼我們地方衛生單位就是減少稽查的密度而且你貼上這個會增加顧客的好感對不對衛務部就這個手段而已嘛那我想請教一下如果這樣的話未來如果採用那樣的機器自助收銀那它也沒有高風險它也沒有無接觸的結帳有沒有幫助它可以取得這兩種標章"},{"start":156.044,"end":172.403,"text":"其實照道理應該要應該要啦不是應該要你們要求要沒錯沒錯可是單靠這個業者有動機嗎沒有沒有餐飲業者來我告訴你餐飲業者他們什麼人過去我曾經調查過我們國內50萬到60萬大概這個為免用統一發票的小店家"},{"start":173.787,"end":195.291,"text":"將近八成是什麼是餐飲業在疫情期間經濟部針對他們一個月營業衝擊補助4萬塊他們喜不喜歡好開心喔另外呢我們的賴總統在2018年當行政院長的時候他也去動了一個政策就是用行動支付用行動支付那你就可以怎樣得到1%營業稅不然要5%還補助你手續費還補助你什麼設備經濟部有這樣的預算跟宣導衛部有嗎"},{"start":203.725,"end":212.573,"text":"沒有所以怎麼辦這是一個打群架的時代如果像你們剛剛要推動這些餐飲業者改用這種事情的話來下一頁小規模營業人行動支付租稅優惠2.0財政部也出手了"},{"start":219.691,"end":240.02,"text":"為什麼因為賴總統那個到2018年到2025年就落日了2026年起這些裝了行動支付的店家可以延續用2.0他裝了一個多媒體資訊服務機就是我說的自助收銀點餐機就會繼續享有什麼1%的優惠那有這樣的好康你覺得經濟部會不會宣導"},{"start":241.748,"end":262.004,"text":"會宣導 會宣導 沒錯 衛福部要不要一起去宣導對不對 你要告訴餐飲業者 你做這個 你就可以優惠良 是不是這樣那你要不要承諾跟經濟部跟財政部一起來幫助我們這個將近小店家 將近八成是做餐飲的解決了他們 是不是就達到了衛福部的要求"},{"start":263.348,"end":292.491,"text":"所以你對嗯之外可不可以說你願意加入OK 鮑偉那個我覺得非常感謝你這個這個題目真的非常smart的一個design我要回去跟部長報告我覺得這是一個就是一件理故啦是希望你跟部長報告之後呢部長指派你或林次長讓我來邀請財政部的次長和經濟部的次長一起三個部會共同來通好不好好接下來我們要請那個勞動部的洪部長謝謝看下一頁來待會呢我要請教洪部長的我就先開始講了你慢慢走"},{"start":293.351,"end":303.767,"text":"那個現在我們勞退自體有超過134個員工3萬的員工參加勞退自體可是自體率目前不到18%部長你覺得這滿意嗎"},{"start":306.767,"end":332.377,"text":"我們都希望再盡量再拉高因為勞退自體真的對勞工是有幫助的是的我覺得勞動部這樣做是對的但是你們分析哪些人會參加勞退自體哪些人不參加勞退自體我看一下會參加的大部分都是收入月薪比較高的平均大概六萬六那而且他們大部分年資生有時候退休他們期待的是什麼穩定的投報率所以要保證兩趴所以他們是參加勞退自體有兩趴嘛"},{"start":333.217,"end":347.539,"text":"但是年輕的人不見得不參加字題他不參加字題什麼原因我們看到現在很多年輕人會幹嘛領古族對不對買基金嘛有沒有遇到這樣年輕人他賺的沒有很多但是他為什麼不加追勞退字題他自己去選投資標的呢"},{"start":350.249,"end":373.777,"text":"呃 他其實有些 我們的確看到比較多 他是薪資比較低的人但是他想要參加 他不參加勞退字體 他自己去買肌膚通 為什麼他喜歡找那種投報率高的 是不是這樣子所以同樣一個勞退字體不同的心情 高收入的 高月薪的比較資深的 他希望穩健現況但是新加入職場的 欸 他雖然稅金可能不會很高 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因為我是故意問你的 我想說你知不知道九成是九成 對 那可是為什麼是九成也沒有去想過我在想是不是缺乏對結案者或者是說符合資格去為申請服務還有短期使用者的一些data所以我覺得那些不用的 不用這些長照資源的人 你要去問為什麼"},{"start":47.583,"end":75.374,"text":"我覺得長照310可能就是要去解決這些沒有去使用或者是說中途離開這個長照的這個系統資源的人然後去解決他們的那個當時遇到的難題我覺得是一個方向那我們現在在我們看根據我們衛福部跟勞動部的那個第一章的報告大概做了一些整理那我們等一下再細談我們先看勞動部的部分"},{"start":78.14,"end":102.074,"text":"接下來就是說我們現在的長照的價很像是沒有一個法源的依據因為育兒的話他有育嬰價可是長照的話現在是家庭照顧價所以我們希望有一個就是所謂的比照我們的育嬰價的這樣一個法源所以是不是有一個長照安排價的這樣一個未來的一個方向部長會不會支持"},{"start":103.468,"end":121.248,"text":"跟委員說明的確其實我們是有看到這個社會其實對於長照相關的事務其實有必須要協助處理的需求其實受雇者那因為現在其實長照3.0的制度就像剛才委員說的其實也是近期那開始上路"},{"start":121.829,"end":144.455,"text":"所以過去其實會有一些狀況可能這個很多的勞工他因為要做長照相關的安排或者是處理的時候他還是的確會遇到一些空窗期所以我們其實也在跟衛福部在討論那也請衛福部再研議跟評估就說3.0上路以後那些過去大家可能會覺得比較長時間的等待或空窗的部分那可以縮短到什麼程度"},{"start":144.915,"end":171.715,"text":"那在有這些相關的數據跟需求的樣態了解以後我覺得我們比較好來綜合的思考是不是要透過一些工時或者職場的制度來去做一些指引的部分OK 沒關係那我們就繼續來努力了那多元陪伴這個部分我看很像只有13家全國然後只有大概服務的4800人次就一個國家的希望工程來看的話我覺得這個部分會不會覺得太少了"},{"start":172.455,"end":186.05,"text":"第一個跟委員說明這確實是一個事半的計劃那其實去年4月上路那我們其實也很小心因為這個政策其實我們有點像一點一點一點的在擴大一開始是4加6加一開始6加"},{"start":187.608,"end":209.708,"text":"那到後來我們把它擴大那CSR當然也希望這個服務的模式如果相對比較成熟的話那可以在更多的縣市來找到可以協辦的跟我們合作的機構那一起再來做擴大的示範那常常遇到的就是說看得到吃不到這樣的一個窘境就是有些照服員他根本就不願意去接這些短期的案子因為心裡面有個負案要怎麼去改善它"},{"start":212.154,"end":225.55,"text":"你說的是本國的兆福園嗎?對啊,就是他們比如說外籍康復他要去請假,結果...多元陪伴計畫不是用兆福園,那兆福園是衛福部這邊OK,好,那沒關係,那我們請衛福部,好,謝謝"},{"start":232.684,"end":248.189,"text":"市長好市長好我也好對我們講說現在的照復員可能就是不會去接這種短期的案子我們覺得有沒有在想說要怎麼去給他們增加誘因讓他們去做這些短期的一些案子那有喘息真的真正的可以喘息"},{"start":250.154,"end":277.087,"text":"包委員我們現在是採取這個都採取預約的那個方式來來進行那我當然就是誠如剛剛黃部長剛剛有說我們也現在也在也都在檢討檢討現在目前的一些整個執行情況執行期間是不是有哪一些還不夠好用我們會來跟勞動部這邊來密切合作像這一個地區我的理解就是比如說一個部落到一個部落可能要一個小時來回就要兩個小時他可能一個早上只服務了兩個個案"},{"start":278.248,"end":287.462,"text":"所以我一直在想到現在還是還沒有對針對這些偏遠地區的造福源有些偏遠加急或者是困難度的加急"},{"start":288.999,"end":310.433,"text":"目前還沒有看到這個方案我今天提了很多次所以我一直覺得是說哪一個方案就是照服員啊他們比如說在一個比如說這個部落到那個部落的距離非常遙遠讓他一個一個早上可能只服務了兩個個案可是就平地地區的照服員他可以因為地理性的關係或者是交通便利性的關係他可以一個早上可以服務"},{"start":311.354,"end":335.99,"text":"超過他的倍數或者是說很像早上就可以服務10個個案我常常遇到這種照服員那你看收入卻是差很多可是他的困難度跟他的辛苦的程度不亞於在平地地區服務的照服員包委我們現在目前這個部分其實是有那個啦您剛剛說那個部分有一個誘因就是那個交通津貼每個月3000塊我覺得還是太少啦那那個勞動部長請回"},{"start":339.833,"end":364.232,"text":"那出院銜接這個兩天我覺得是不是太美化了因為我覺得在如果是在原住民地區根本就不可能拿到所以我在想這個均速四天是不是也把那個我們弱勢跟偏遠地區的把它很像也平均掉了根本就看不出來那個它的困難程度所以我覺得針對我們偏鄉跟加入出院的家屬是不是應該要去做一個真的是怎麼去落實這個出院銜接的這個服務"},{"start":368.775,"end":388.082,"text":"跟委員說明齁那初輩銜接長照服務的這個部分因為在偏鄉居住的民眾他就醫大概都是到因為醫療院所有初輩的都會到都會區就是醫療資源供應的區域所以當他出院要回到部落去那這個部分我們現階段是讓醫院的這個初輩小組這邊來完成"},{"start":393.324,"end":399.569,"text":"當天如果能夠銜接完就一個案子有2000塊的獎勵金那如果他遞延這個時間的話獎勵金會遞減現在跟醫療院所這邊開過會他們目標都要朝向爭取拿到這個最高的獎勵金"},{"start":409.037,"end":429.902,"text":"所以我們會這塊會努力那現在全國平均下來其實是去年年底的資料是3.66天所以是平均4天那我們今年目標是平均兩天如果下次有資料的話是不是把偏鄉或者是說假日出院的把這個資料特別拿出來看是不是有比較稍微更長一點或者是實際的那個數據來呈現讓我們知道"},{"start":432.503,"end":461.465,"text":"可以嗎 是就是就住院的部分我看到全時陪伴或者說部分陪伴希望有照護輔助人員來幫忙可是我們也確實有遇到一些陳情就是他到了醫院以後找不到人可以幫忙然後醫院拼命打電話給家屬可是家屬他沒有辦法請假所以會變成說其實很像有看到這個餅可是卻享受不到你現在說你現在是有大概是100多家院所嗎"},{"start":462.805,"end":489.043,"text":"可是我們的跟我們陳情的是在屏東的屏東的地區區域醫院還是會遇到這種病患的家屬的陳情就是說找不到人可以照顧甚至是因為造成護理人員的那個就是他已經夠忙了有護病別的關係他就護理人員會對他們怒言相向就等於是在病房裡面就吵架了我覺得這個部分是不是還是要"},{"start":490.164,"end":516.113,"text":"那若是在照護輔助人員的這些人力的部分跟委員報告就是我們住院整合照護就是就醫院有提出這個計畫申請的話我們就是在他照護的比例一定要有這個照護員的一個搭配那剛提到也有可能這個醫院他沒有實施這個住院整合照護那他就請一般的看護的這個狀況好那最後就是我們"},{"start":517.333,"end":538.894,"text":"附帶今天的陳情案一個叫PAC計畫他想不到來跟我們陳情因為他一直認為說他是屬於這個就是類似像腦中風他是受傷造成他沒有意識然後意識模糊然後需要這樣子全時間照顧結果因為他沒有辦法加入這個PAC計畫所以就在醫院裡面被踢來踢去然後強迫他在"},{"start":539.734,"end":566.605,"text":"幾號要出院然後再到另外一家醫院然後現在又要求他在3月6號出院因為他說他的被拒絕的理由是他未滿18歲因為這個這個病人剛好17歲而已他是因為在過年期間搬阿嬤搬東西結果從車上掉下來打到打到腦所以就變成現在這個狀況然後在台東又寫上加創的是那邊沒有所謂的復健科醫師可以收病房所以我覺得是不是要去先解決"},{"start":568.085,"end":578.792,"text":"這個年齡限制因為你腦部受傷並沒有年齡限制他是說醫院的他好像有寫信給衛福部衛福部的答案就是說衛滿18歲沒有在這個PAC計劃裡面"},{"start":581.64,"end":603.865,"text":"非常感謝委員 我想這個確實我覺得這沒有年齡的問題部長其實有指示我們我們現在會有一個PAC的照護照那也希望會後的話 各位辦公室要個案的資料那我上次有講到罕見疾病的一些就是脊腹的問題上次是ITP就是血小板底下的問題前幾天又說到乾燥症的問題"},{"start":604.745,"end":625.016,"text":"我覺得不能全無或是全有也就是說有的時候有補助有的時候完全沒有補助應該是有一個等級或者說按照個案的比如說他的經濟狀況或者是他的家庭環境我覺得應該是以%的一個補助比如說每個月兩萬多塊對一個要撫養四到"},{"start":625.976,"end":652.697,"text":"四到六個小孩有些是在工作是沒有工作這樣的會造成家庭非常大的負擔尤其是原住民還要在部落還要在多月去租房子那我是覺得說這樣的一個罕見疾病我是覺得不能用他實際的那個病情但是還要酌情他的所有的條件家庭環境也好還有他的經濟來源也好所以會所以又每次給我們的案子"},{"start":653.618,"end":666.686,"text":"我們就說奇怪 已經罕見疾病的那個金額那麼高 為什麼我們都享受不到這樣的一個福利 可以嗎好的 OK好 感謝委員 好 謝謝好 謝謝吳憲英委員發言 接下來請"}]}},{"id":"167969","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167969","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e304cba797e477fc5c30e9bbc489b48f6f5ed79e3d4a2dc6bb28a51474f1c8f3f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:52:08 - 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年輕人都到都會區了所以留在部落的就是老人"},{"start":342.871,"end":362.562,"text":"所以他的你看百分之五十二点多现在都会去这是有社户籍的所以这个部分这个加上面社户籍的年轻人到都会去就业但是他他的研究还在部落的一定是七八成了所以他的在原乡的"},{"start":363.39,"end":381.286,"text":"他的需求數仍然很大是也會跟我們平均一面除了這個健康醫療各方面之外這個部分也是其中重要的因素之一這個請衛衛部多多支持好OK好謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員發言接下來請盧憲義委員發言"}]}},{"id":"167974","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167974","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e0b8c9bf44c74f016c30e9bbc489b48f6f5ed79e3d4a2dc6b046f014c7ab0ab8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"13:38:05 - 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我們請勞動部紅部長有請紅部長"},{"start":16.175,"end":42.966,"text":"李委員好來部長好那這個今天召委特別安排這個題目那其實大家也都在關心這個長照的這個照顧假那剛剛這個楊教委員就提到應該很多委員都提到那目前還在考慮這一個評估的主要的原因在哪裡第一個就是因為任何的制度會先去評估他的需求"},{"start":43.926,"end":69.895,"text":"那一定有需求啊對 所以但是需求有的量長或短所以現在的狀況是因為這個第一個長照3.0剛剛上路嘛那過去長照3.0也是希望就像剛剛楊委員講希望它的覆蓋面也讓過去可能更多那種空窗期的部分可以縮短所以我們其實現在也在跟衛福部在討論想要了解說這個整體長照制度目前其實已經覆蓋到什麼程度了"},{"start":70.695,"end":81.795,"text":"那它的空窗的部分或者是需要銜接的部分還有多少的需求要需要多少時間這部分會需要一點時間來評估因為包括長照三年政策它其實也是持續的推進這需要半年的時間來評估嗎"},{"start":83.893,"end":111.972,"text":"這部分可能要跟衛福這邊討論一下我們可能會需要一點時間因為這個政策也是新的政策在往前推進你講的是長照3.0這個政策但是我現在在講的就是說這個長照照顧假這個不是百分之百同樣的一件事情但是這兩件事情是有蠻大的相關的比方說過去如果空窗期是50天的時候那它的需求就蠻大的"},{"start":112.873,"end":126.644,"text":"可是如果空窗期大幅縮短的時候它的需求可能就會降低一些所以這件事情本身的評估會跟整個大的長照制度的狀態會有高度的關聯那我請一下石部長好了來那您這邊"},{"start":129.124,"end":152.176,"text":"因為其實有需要啦因為我們照顧小的已經照顧得都不錯了嘛那現在就是說長者或是需要照顧也不一定是長者需要照顧的這些長照的這些人啦好 跟委員報告大概有兩種狀況啦一種狀況就是說剛要進入長照的每年會有一些因為因病啦然後之後就失能然後需要進入長照服務"},{"start":152.776,"end":177.536,"text":"大概我們推估大概這一年大概有三萬多名像類似像這樣這裡面比較嚴重的就是我們在這個嚴重度在七八幾的大概20%那這些就是很需要這個還沒有長照進來之前家屬要自己照顧所以我們在盡量的縮短這個中間的空窗期另外一種是像高齡化社會像偶爾會發生事情所以才會剛剛"},{"start":179.057,"end":204.729,"text":"洪部長在提的是到底我們針對的對象是哪一些那就會影響到他的需求量有多大後端的影響如何配套那到底是以這個架的方式來形成呢還是要以這個留職停薪的方式來做這個我們可能需要再一點時間來把它我當然知道就是說會一點要需要時間那我的意思就是說那你們"},{"start":205.309,"end":223.651,"text":"需要多久時間來檢視說譬如說長照3.0這個政策做了之後那我們這一個長照的照顧的空窗期能夠縮短然後呢接下來再來考慮譬如說洪部長這邊來考慮說那我們是不是要有這一個長照的照顧假是不是大概順序是這樣子嗎"},{"start":224.312,"end":246.611,"text":"是跟委員說明在長照2.0的時候我們是從這個空窗從51天縮短到去年是大概3.66天平均那所以前面這裡我們已經大幅的縮短可是在接下來要壓縮當然它的那個挑戰性就會更高我們的目標是希望看今年能不能讓它縮短到差不多兩天左右"},{"start":248.072,"end":262.859,"text":"紅部長的一個目標那其實如果這個空中期縮短的話其實資方的接受度也會提高所以說那我再請教一下紅部長所以就像剛剛時務長說的就是說我們也在看它縮短跟實施的狀態如何"},{"start":264.079,"end":285.17,"text":"這會對於需求的評估上面會很高的關聯你如果是五十幾天的時候那這需求就非常大那如果現在是四天還是剩兩天甚至更短的時候那這個需求的評估就會不一樣所以我們去做這個制度的研議的時候當然第一件事情會先針對需求上面去做一個定量或定性的理解這樣子"},{"start":286.75,"end":310.319,"text":"我們還是會比較關心的比如說這個需要半年的時間先看看部長還是覺得說我們是不是空空前一個收到兩天這個是你的目標嘛對不對那如果說收到兩天大概需要多少時間然後需要多少的費用然後四天的話需要多少我想這個應該這個洪部長這邊應該是能夠按照這一些參數把它模擬出來"},{"start":311.599,"end":329.169,"text":"我覺得還有一個部分就是樣態啦就是哪些情境有這個虛假因為這裡面會有個到底是大家在討論的是一個個別的價還是比較快狀的流停因為國際上可能都有但是個別的價的話其實也蠻多看到它是比較是無心的"},{"start":330.65,"end":355.55,"text":"沒有關係 我覺得這些都可以列入考慮所以我的意思是說這件事情討論的前提是需要對於樣態做更精確的瞭解到底是需要一大段快狀的時間還是是需要比較零碎的個別的天這就不太一樣OK 好我本來還要再問 就稍微已經站起來了因為今天也推了比較久了好啦 就不耽誤大家的時間了好 謝謝"},{"start":357.202,"end":360.878,"text":"好 谢谢李昆城委员接下来我们请"}]}},{"id":"167973","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167973","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4ebbe03f9d765a8f1fc30e9bbc489b48f6f5ed79e3d4a2dc6b046f014c7ab0ab8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"13:27:06 - 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所以就像剛剛衛福部有回答過去可能你從出院到有長照的資源可能要50天左右可是他們現在大幅的把它縮短到4天 3天可能後來再縮短 對長照"},{"start":575.672,"end":588.397,"text":"不僅限於出院的不只對所以有各種樣態所以這些各種樣態我們要先去做了解不然因為時間的關係我大概講一下就是說我們當然希望長到3.0"},{"start":591.485,"end":607.578,"text":"退變以後可以覆蓋面更廣一點可是呢 承載安排價的部分你們可能也必須要我們都會綜合的思考及早做思考那至於我覺得就是說"},{"start":610.834,"end":631.954,"text":"我向來主張勞工跟企業必須要同時兼顧那天數的部分你們可能在討論的時候也要一併就是長短啦假如說我在看台灣高齡化的速度還有長照3.0的覆蓋面"},{"start":635.317,"end":639.364,"text":"長照安排價一定會經常被提出來討論那你們應該要及早做討論跟因應好不好好謝謝補習謝謝主席好謝謝楊耀維"}]}},{"id":"167977","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167977","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e3ac34bec22616baf1db4e8dc12ee02557c21d93b3021e0bfff30f6c757e0e6d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:05:01 - 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假設這有沒有涉及不實的這個烘台價格啊"},{"start":161.744,"end":180.547,"text":"烘台價格就是烘台價格但如果他有不實我不曉得什麼叫不實的所以你的意思是說這不歸公平會管沒有沒有我剛剛講過聯合烘台聯合定價這個當然是公平會要管那不實廣告是不實廣告所以就是你的意思是說像這種引發恐慌的事情呢"},{"start":181.957,"end":205.664,"text":"不歸公平匯管是這個意思嗎就是說衛生紙搶扣沒有衛生紙這都不歸你管沒有引發恐慌如果是基於業者集體之間的一種杯葛或是拒絕從事交易特別囤貨聯合起來做的話這當然是公平匯要處理的聯合問題那你有密切在觀察這個事情嗎我們都隨時都有在觀察這關於民生物資我們平常都會注意到那個價格的波動"},{"start":207.004,"end":231.7,"text":"其实我也还蛮担心公平会的不管问你们什么你们感觉都好像在另一个平行世界里面就是没有办法理解我们在跟你沟通的一些内容那我再问就是前年Uber宣布要以9.5亿美元收购Full Panda台湾的业务那时候公平会耗时了200"},{"start":233.462,"end":253.019,"text":"25天那最後以防止壟斷唯有禁止了雙方結合結果這個禮拜呢換成東南亞的外送龍頭Grab要以6億收購Full Panda那從公平會專業的角度來看這兩起收購案相同與不相同之處在哪裡呢"},{"start":253.539,"end":263.928,"text":"因為這個案子還沒送進本會所以我現在初步問你們初步了解就是說有什麼一樣跟不一樣最大的不一樣是上個案子如果結合完成以後事實上就會高達九成"},{"start":264.943,"end":282.917,"text":"那這個案子完成結合以後還是維持兩家大的外送平台存在所以這是它最大的在市場結構上的不同如果真的要去看它的不同的地方的話是但是呢本席要提醒公平會注意一個關鍵背景Uber早在2018就將東南亞的業務賣給了Grab然後換取了一定比例的持股我想可能主委我知道你知道嘛"},{"start":293.024,"end":319.046,"text":"你清楚的話那你覺得說直到今天Uber能持有Grab約13%的股份是最大的股東喔換句話說Uber雖然沒有親自收購成功但是卻由他持股的公司來買而且這個持股公司他還是最大的股東我並沒有說有任何預設的立場我只是希望說那公平會這一次"},{"start":320.827,"end":345.296,"text":"會怎麼樣判定Grab的營業獨立性然後會考量這層關係嗎我想分析的架構大概跟上次那個案子那個整個法律的架構是一樣的那這個案子我想剛剛委員所談到的那個持股的部分這個也是我們後續在審查會去判斷的不過附帶跟委員講一下這個13%是他持股但是持股對公司的控制跟影響因為他持股的類型不太一樣"},{"start":346.376,"end":358.804,"text":"我現在只是在提醒你所以你有在考量這層關係就非常好那我們再深入看Grab跟Uber 2018那次交易當時新加坡的這個競爭與消費委員會就對他們的交易案重罰了1300萬的新幣那兩家公司呢"},{"start":367.049,"end":375.539,"text":"成為利益共同體導致競爭誘因消失了新加坡隨即出現了運費上漲 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各位女士先生今天呈大院邀請來做這個在職照顧者支持體系是否完善長照3.0服務輸送與長照安排價評估的專案報告那請敬請參閱書面資料以下呢就則要跟各位委員來做說明那麼長照3.0是在今年的1月1號開始推動"},{"start":1738.092,"end":1756.001,"text":"那麼建立在長照2.0的基礎上那麼以健康促進醫療照護的整合積極的賦能提升機構的量能還有強化家庭的支持導入智慧照顧落實安寧善中跟人力專業發展等八大目標"},{"start":1757.282,"end":1780.229,"text":"打造一個連續性的依照整合的服務那麼其中在這個目標當中有一個強化家庭支持那麼是由本部跟勞動部來共同規劃那麼希望能夠達到照顧不離職的這個目標那麼相關的做法上有以下幾點那麼第一就是"},{"start":1781.549,"end":1805.222,"text":"擴大推動這個住院整合照護服務來減輕民眾在住院的時候的照顧壓力跟經濟的負荷那麼由護理跟照服人員來分工照護那家屬就不用像過去一樣的24小時的陪伴或自行聘護看護那麼費用不僅降低那麼同時也可以這個"},{"start":1806.783,"end":1825.399,"text":"減輕護理人員的壓力目前是有110家醫院來辦理那麼擴及床數已經達5000床那麼今年我們擴大預算編列希望朝向更多的服務人次來邁進那第二是縮短出院準備到"},{"start":1826.701,"end":1847.803,"text":"銜接長照服務的時間那麼過去在106年長照2.0開辦的時候平均出院到接受到長照銜接服務的平均需要51天那麼到114年已經縮短到3.66天也就是平均4天"},{"start":1848.604,"end":1876.423,"text":"那麼今年我們希望能夠再往前一步那麼縮短到平均兩天那麼逐步的再邁向那麼住院當日就可銜接長照服務那麼同時對於這個社區的這個長照需求者那麼我們也開辦那麼有線上那麼可以申請那麼也來說短這個在社區申請長照服務的時間那麼第三呢是我們持續的在擴充日間照顧"},{"start":1878.824,"end":1901.35,"text":"服務的量能那麼截至到114年的12月底那麼社區的長照機構已佈建完成1568處來提供沿拖還有夜間的服務那麼讓長照的服務的個案的家屬可以安心的送託那麼最後呢是還有第四點是要這個落實這個所謂的這個喘息服務"},{"start":1906.832,"end":1926.173,"text":"那麼因此呢今年也推出了這個新的照顧有喘息的支持家庭照護的一個計畫也就是二對多的照護模式互助喘息服務事辦計畫那麼利用各社區的閒置空間有一名照服員來搭配"},{"start":1926.713,"end":1950.067,"text":"一至三名的家庭照顧者共同照顧多位的照顧人員彼此支援那目前已經在全國16個縣市部件50處的服務據點展開示範那麼第五是家照共榮據點來提供家庭照顧者的支持那麼一方面可以協助家庭照顧者提供他"},{"start":1950.747,"end":1969.738,"text":"照顧的諮詢還有心理的協談服務還有在宅的照顧的技巧的指導還有支持團體紓壓活動那麼並也運用志工的關懷來減輕家庭照顧者的壓力那麼到114年底已經佈建完成家照據點191處那麼預計在117年可以完成200處的工農據點"},{"start":1975.581,"end":1997.511,"text":"那麼最後呢那麼今年我們也推動25歲以下的年輕照顧者的支持方案那麼讓這個年輕照顧者能夠在除了這個減輕他的家庭照顧壓力能夠持續的就學穩定那麼對於這個比較嚴重者我們提供就是被照顧者較嚴重的"},{"start":1998.511,"end":2018.5,"text":"那麼市級以上我們就安排公費安置那麼另外比較輕度的我們就安排在社區式的服務來做地帶的照顧支援讓年輕照顧者白天可以在就學時間內安心的就學那麼無需擔心被照顧者獨自在家的照顧需要"},{"start":2019.82,"end":2039.157,"text":"此外我們也積極的在引導聘僱外看的家庭也能夠使用多元的長照服務例如在等待外看到職期間或者是在轉換僱主、失聯或訪僵等等的照顧空窗期"},{"start":2039.657,"end":2061.506,"text":"也可以來申請照顧服務的相關的長照服務而聘請的這個外看之後也可以搭配使用勞動部的短照的服務來紓解空窗期的照顧壓力那麼從114年的9月1號開始那麼也放寬了聘僱外看的家庭也可以使用"},{"start":2062.487,"end":2076.565,"text":"社區式的日間照顧還有家庭的託顧服務來促進個案參與一對多的社區照顧服務提升被照顧者的社會參與及互動我想台灣進入了超高齡社會"},{"start":2078.407,"end":2104.398,"text":"本部將結合各界的力量那麼落實長照3.0來達到擴大社會投資減輕家庭負擔同時強化醫療照護的銜接那麼給予家庭照顧者更多的支持那麼對失能者也有更完善的照顧那麼達到健康老化在地安老及安寧善終的願景以上報告再請各位委員不吝指教謝謝"},{"start":2106.129,"end":2109.775,"text":"好 謝謝石部長的報告 接著請勞動部洪部長報告"},{"start":2119.471,"end":2138.945,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那今天邀至貴委員會那就在職照顧者支持體系是否完善長照3.0服務輸送與長照安排價的評估進行專題的報告那進行委員不吝指教那接下來我將從在職照顧者的支持措施"},{"start":2139.865,"end":2161.897,"text":"及長照安排價的評估兩方面來進行說明第一部分是在職照顧者的支持措施縮短照顧的空窗期首先本部與F部共同推動擴大傳奇服務及短照這個服務那讓被看護者經地方長照照管中心評估如果符合長照需要等級第二到八級而且"},{"start":2162.577,"end":2191.777,"text":"家庭看護移工因故無法續行照顧工作時,可向各地照管中心申請使用這兩項服務,以維護被看護者的安全與照顧品質,同時減輕家庭照顧者的壓力與負擔。截至114年底,擴大產業服務使用人士達到123萬,短期照顧服務使用人士為111萬,因使用人士大幅成長,今年勞動部已編列13.7億元,並同步檢討調高明年的預算,確保服務不中斷。"},{"start":2193.738,"end":2218.713,"text":"此外本部从114年4月推动多元陪伴照顾服务事办计划由具照顾专业及聘雇管理能力的公益团体担任雇主聘用本国及外籍陪伴服务员以一对多模式提供有临时短期紧急照顾需求的家庭弹性人力资源服务涵盖北中南东共13家事办单位"},{"start":2221.072,"end":2248.521,"text":"那截至今年二月底以服務超過4800人次累積總服務時數突破4.6萬小時有效填補照顧空窗戟本部也持續研議簡化家庭聘僱看護工申請程序及作業縮短照顧空窗戟那第二是照顧服務員職業訓練的辦理情形在長照政策部會分工裡依照長照法的規定長照服務人員的管理培訓"},{"start":2250.061,"end":2269.457,"text":"資格訓練認證的有關事項由中央主管機關衛福部定之本部執掌長照人員及個人看護的勞動條件就服務職業安全衛生等事項與非為醫事或社工專業證照的長照人員及個人看護者的訓練技能檢定等相關事項"},{"start":2270.698,"end":2292.702,"text":"在補助地方政府辦理造福源訓練方面造福源訓練由本部退福會園民會等相關部會及各地各地方政府共同辦理為協助國人投入照顧服務產業及因應長照人力需求本部依未服務所定照顧服務員資格訓練計劃規劃的課程訓練時數及師資條件等師訓並配合"},{"start":2301.483,"end":2311.528,"text":"該部推估的照顧人力缺口補助各地方政府辦理照服員訓練114年預計辦理114年已辦理310班訓練計8897人又為協助國人投入照顧服務產業及因應照服員人力需求針對一般參訓對象每人補助80%訓練費用"},{"start":2326.795,"end":2345.356,"text":"如具救福法所定特定對象身份的失業者免除負擔訓練費用之外還會提供參加全日制職業訓練期間的執訓生活津貼那第三部分是提供更友善的職場環境那為達到照顧不離職政府積極推動長照安排制度"},{"start":2346.437,"end":2372.539,"text":"朝向縮短長照銜接的空窗期讓受僱者可以兼顧家庭就業從今年的1月1號請新公法與勞工請假規則規定有照顧家庭需求時受僱者可以請家庭照顧假以及以家庭照顧為室遊的市價合計14天並放寬以小時為單位申請僱主不得扣發全勤獎金受僱者有照顧長者需求依法提出申請僱主不得拒絕"},{"start":2373.38,"end":2392.955,"text":"新政策目標是希望讓有照顧需求的受僱者可以更彈性的運用照顧陪伴家人最後是是否徵定長照安排假的議題長照3.0已在115年上路那計劃中包括強化家庭支持勞動部將配合衛福部盤點長照3.0上路後的民眾需求"},{"start":2394.016,"end":2415.479,"text":"的樣態對相關制度綜合思考並積極推動各項友善職場措施支持勞工兼顧工作及家庭照顧持續跨部會合作讓受僱者減少因照顧而離職的情況以上報告那敬請委員及各位先進指教並助主席及各位委員身體健康"},{"start":2416.243,"end":2440.851,"text":"好 謝謝黃部長的報告 現在開始詢答做以下宣告 以本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 內席委員4加1分鐘 二10點半截止發言登記 三委員如有書面諮詢請於上會前提出預期不受理 四暫定10點半休息10分鐘 五原則上11點半"},{"start":2443.09,"end":2471.96,"text":"處理臨時提案 11點截止涉案 6有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在請登記第一位委員林瑞群召委發言 林委員請主席麻煩我們的衛福部長跟勞動部部長好 請兩位部長 石部長 洪部長"},{"start":2475.766,"end":2492.502,"text":"委員長兩位部長早我想應該很難得可以同時邀請到兩位部長來備詢這會期我當然召委那還要拜託兩位部長一起來努力攝服跟兒少跟勞動的相關的政策昨天安排兒少全法的詢答今天安排長照假"},{"start":2493.823,"end":2513.563,"text":"因為我很清楚的告訴大家 政府的職責就是要顧小 要顧老 也要顧全民 更是我攝護跟兒少立委的責任從上任來就一直在爭取 因為現在人晚婚幾乎都會走入到一個叫夾心世代 像我媽媽38歲生我 我38歲生我女兒"},{"start":2517.206,"end":2533.355,"text":"那當我孩子四歲的時候的確現在勞動部有育嬰作為一個彈性的育嬰留庭或者是做後來彈性家可是還少了一端啊當我媽媽八十歲我小孩四歲的時候我兩端都要處理的時候你給我一方我卻沒有給我另外一方所以就要問"},{"start":2534.515,"end":2548.152,"text":"劳动部和我们的卫护部首先我先卫护部因为我去年在咨询的时候我就提到说要求两部会要提供评估报告到现在想问石部长评估在哪里到底那个需求是多少需求啊"},{"start":2552.408,"end":2569.218,"text":"我再瞭解一下再跟委員說明您說的就是需要有需要請長照的安排假的人到底有多少長照的照顧假的需求是"},{"start":2571.159,"end":2598.252,"text":"因為這件事情從來就不只是制度的設計而是超高齡社會下每一個家庭正在面對的現實我上週開記者會的都已經也提過了我想直接告訴兩位部長要判斷長照的一個安排價有沒有必要其實不用這麼複雜我們直接看數據這是勞動部的一個114年的工作職場當中就業平均概況的一個調查超過六成的勞工曾因為長期照顧壓力考慮離職"},{"start":2600.513,"end":2626.323,"text":"那我們又希望 總統政策希望不要照顧最好不要因為照顧而離職所以同時有76.2%的勞工表示即使無薪也需要長照安排假就是說他不用要錢來貼補可是他就是有這個需求這代表需求已經很明確而且正在發生請問兩位部長這個數據足夠支持你們推動長照安排假嗎"},{"start":2627.984,"end":2648.639,"text":"我想這個我們從幾個數據來看那第一個就是說剛剛在我的報告裡面也大概提到如果是住院新發生個案要接後端的長照服務那麼我們過去當然很長五十幾天那現在大概是平均3.66天所以這個有一個空窗那第二個呢"},{"start":2649.159,"end":2675.659,"text":"如果是在社區裡面直接申請的不是因為住院在社區裡面要申請的那麼平均大概是10天重數大概是5天所以這裡也有一個空窗所以這個空窗當然就必須由家屬自己來擔負這個空窗級的長照的照顧那確實我覺得是可以來考慮這樣的一個資助那我不知道洪部長這邊這是你們的數據應該很明確的"},{"start":2679.897,"end":2701.162,"text":"其實我們對於像這個照顧不離職為目標的政策我想我們當然都很願意來思考那的確在針對長照安排假的部分的話其實我們也在跟衛福部討論因為現在長照3.0上路那長照3.0上路以後過去其實大家會"},{"start":2702.302,"end":2723.5,"text":"有些部分這個可能大家想說像痛點就是說哪些地方會有這個空窗的部分其實目前在長照三年上路以後會縮短到什麼程度那這個在這個目前整體的長照制度下面的這個政策的需求可能我自己認為可以再進行一輪的這個"},{"start":2725.871,"end":2748.804,"text":"制度上路以後的評估那才比較能夠把需求掌握住然後來評估這個長照相關的價別它的必要性跟可行性我覺得它可能會經過一個這樣子程序的討論所以我們願意在這個程序之下來做綜合的思考我想勞動部應該非常知道現在缺工婦女勞參率低"},{"start":2750.325,"end":2762.684,"text":"如果照顧離子的話可能會雪上加霜而且現在問題是成本實在沒有消失而且被轉嫁出去勞工如果用離子來承擔切用人力流失來承擔家庭用健康跟時間來承擔"},{"start":2764.025,"end":2780.564,"text":"像部長剛才祝我們身體健康當然我們覺得家庭的負擔很重的時候就很難最後整體的社會在用生產力下降跟稅收減少來承擔更具體的來看的話切為了一個員工要離職的話可能要付出約1.5倍的"},{"start":2782.566,"end":2806.855,"text":"年薪的重置成本 因為要重新訓練人所以紅部長這些重置成本最後會是由來誰來解決一定是你們勞動部要想辦法所以為我們不去解決這個根本呢那所以相對的話想問 石部長像我相信你們大家也會支持 可是前段的問題不能解決的話就留一堆不能到最後來留一堆問題"},{"start":2807.614,"end":2825.235,"text":"最後家庭照顧者最後又變成負擔很大因為他一個人在家裡去照顧娘所以你的其他服務的確到長照3.0時間有所縮短可從申請到銜接到所謂的適應事實上是要有些時間的所以就來問"},{"start":2828.198,"end":2855.9,"text":"到底對象是誰 誰能申請 需要多少錢有沒有裁員 還有事業單位會不會支持 所以我們就來看數據我們現在主要是想爭取的事實上是能不能新手 因為的確如果事實上是重新再找的話當然還好 可是新手的話衛福部的估計一年大概2到3萬人會使用到 所以市部長我們先針對初次有長照需求人給予"},{"start":2856.941,"end":2878.227,"text":"協助這個方向你支持嗎跟委員說明當然我們現在盡可能的去增加他申請的方便性包含線上申請等等但是因為第一次我們照專需要評估的時候就是長照需求評估的時候第一次因為我們還有半年再評估嘛"},{"start":2878.387,"end":2892.837,"text":"所以第一次評估的時候一定是要有這個照顧者也就是家屬像你的申請要四天你的選擇要七天那麼以目前來講一年大概新申請長照第一次初評估的這個大概在三萬多人左右"},{"start":2893.698,"end":2921.328,"text":"所以那我只要問你你支持這樣的一個方向嗎我支持就是以第一次的因為第一次它需要要導入這個長照的服務第一次進入這個系統第二個呢它也需要像委員講的這個適應所以如果是先限縮在這個第一次申請的我覺得這個是可行性的應該要去考慮啦如果我們用初次有需求這兩三萬人去做"},{"start":2922.368,"end":2941.785,"text":"計算的話我也幫部長算好了以平均薪資六成的薪資的話大概整體成本大概9到10億而如果我們用投保薪資的六成薪的話那整體估計預算大概6.4億如果我們用育嬰留庭的規模跟方式的話用投保薪資八成薪算的話大概8.6億所以我們用這個規模來試辦的話這筆錢對我們的勞動部應該不難把就業保險基金"},{"start":2949.452,"end":2969.199,"text":"是不是可以支應呢 因為我們看到的是 首先運力遊艇也就是用救保來做處理有潛力可循 第二不要讓勞工因為照顧而離職我認為絕對符合就業保險法的一個精神 第三就業保險法裁員相對是穩定的去年救保應濟的那個保險費是330億"},{"start":2972.321,"end":2983.289,"text":"實際給付的事實上是250億那帳面上的剩餘大概80億也都能因為有剩餘所以依法撥補給就業安定基金40億所以增加這條10億的計畫應該不是難事吧"},{"start":2986.545,"end":3014.96,"text":"我跟文說明我還是分兩個部分第一個部分就是說對於長照相關的價別那要不要來規劃實施我覺得這部分我想我們是可以綜合思考的可是對於裁員的部分我還是要說因為當你需要碰到修法我這邊已經也法案提出來因為育嬰留庭的津貼其實是社會保險舊保是社會保險的法定的紀律所以如果要"},{"start":3016.061,"end":3042.127,"text":"把這個就是說因為舊保基本上比較處理的是跟留庭相關的比較不是處理個別的價別那現在在處理的這個因留庭的這個一日申請他其實也還是來自一個留庭的制度所以如果要從留庭的角度的話那他可能這個在目前的這個法規的框架裡面他其實並不是法定的給付的項目那如果要把它修進去的話那的確那可能也還要檢討費率的問題"},{"start":3045.168,"end":3059.871,"text":"不是 我會問部長也可以去考慮說到底有什麼樣的製作這個因為去年進入到超高齡社會然後加上台灣為什麼少子化晚婚事實上也是一個原因所在所以夾心世代是存在的如果不去解決的話"},{"start":3060.652,"end":3089.265,"text":"那我覺得照顧離職這一塊就永遠沒解然後你的缺工的問題這個事實上是環環相扣而且再來事業單位也是支持的因為我們知道政策要推行明天跟企業一定要能夠協助在勞動部同一份調查其實也說得很明白將近有四成的事業單位是支持有這個價別而且逐年上升不支持的比率大幅下降所以這個政策不只是我們的受僱者支持僱主支持的也越來越多所以就算政府看"},{"start":3089.625,"end":3118.66,"text":"要不要我還是因為我其實是希望這個議題可以正向討論那可是所以這裡面第一個還是要先經過需求評估就是說到底有多少包括有多少人需要然後哪些情境需要那需要的這個時間長短大概多少這才有辦法進入到底經費上面的思考那經費上的思考經費的尺度也會經費上的尺度也會來去思考說那不同的財源的適配性"},{"start":3119.69,"end":3148.748,"text":"因為經費尺度的差別會跟你裁員哪些比較適合會有關係所以我的意思說我們可以正向的來做很多的討論可是我覺得可能前面還是必須要先從需求的理解跟評估這邊開始來進行那剛剛講說因為剛剛其中有一張講到其實並不是純粹這個保費的盈餘就是80億其實裡面大概去年的保費的收支的盈餘的話大概是40億"},{"start":3150.438,"end":3167.339,"text":"不過我在這邊最後還是期待因為我剛剛講說這個已經是不可迴避的我們的政府的責任因為為什麼我們就是晚婚跟高齡化所以我覺得請勞動部跟衛福部是不是在5月1號也就勞動前提出我們的長照安排"},{"start":3167.884,"end":3182.316,"text":"假的事辦計畫的初步來運作 而且方案中當然要納入到薪資貼補的那個機制的一個設計 讓勞工在照顧初期能夠真正的請得起假 留得住工作 否則的話我覺得在勞"},{"start":3183.618,"end":3200.591,"text":"我們的照顧離職這個問題實際上是沒有解決的我們的缺工問題也沒辦法解決所以法案提出之後也請邀請我們的民間團體跟專家學者跟相關利害關係人來召開示範計畫延伸計畫來針對於我們的適用對象薪資貼補的比例企業負擔的方式跟財務來進行完整的討論可以嗎好先做討論我知道洪部長剛剛提的有些問題有一些需要解決的可是我覺得這已經是不可迴避的"},{"start":3213.942,"end":3224.872,"text":"所以希望我們兩部長能夠一起促成在勞動節的時候給勞工一個保障好 謝謝好 謝謝殷少偉的發言謝謝兩位部長的應答下一位我們請陳金輝委員發言謝謝主席我們請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":3246.832,"end":3267.3,"text":"我先放一下這個是之前大概四個多月前發生的一個新聞當時有個頻道叫做陳志明醫師那他在裡面做了非常多的衛教其中他就包括說他推廣台大北榮有一個可以奇蹟式治癒糖尿病的療法叫做細菌性療法"},{"start":3268.36,"end":3293.278,"text":"好多人就打到北榮去問或是台大詢問逼得北榮不得不出來說我們醫院並沒有這位醫師也沒有這樣子的創新的研究革命性的療法那當時衛福部也出來說話衛福部就說他們會很快速的釐清醫師法對於虛擬醫師形象的法律適用性還有研擬一套合法的身份揭露那另外呢"},{"start":3294.079,"end":3307.278,"text":"當時四個月前您還說要建立頻道設置規範讓民眾在網路上看衛教的時候可以一眼分辨出誰是領有執照的專業人士誰是電腦合成的假身份那目前為止進度如何呢"},{"start":3308.532,"end":3324.478,"text":"好抱歉這個我再來細部瞭解一下進度再跟委員報告好那我先那我等一下有幾張這個投影片我想跟你講目前這件事演變的方向還有它的嚴重程度好過了4個月這個是我最新找到"},{"start":3326.358,"end":3344.628,"text":"你們發的一個新聞你們研擬了四個月那現在是說未來要攜手跟速發部推去醫療假訊息快速下架那你永遠都在這個研擬的行政步驟這四個月但是發生了一些事情讓您看一下"},{"start":3346.749,"end":3348.651,"text":"好我们先看这个影片"},{"start":3361.886,"end":3388.582,"text":"这代表你的肠道极度干旱缺水而且严重缺乏水果里的水溶性纤维润滑明天的行动指南是立刻打幅增加饮水量多吃两颗带皮奇异果或者马上补充一碗洋菜冻对于不能喝太多水也不能吃高甲奇异果的肾病患者这时候应该选择低甲的苹果莲皮吃并搭配适量的洋菜冻来锁水你觉得你认识这个医生吗"},{"start":3389.947,"end":3413.326,"text":"我沒有印象沒有認識我不認識你覺得他講的衛教內容正確嗎不完全正確啦好部長我跟你說我有去查啦醫事人才人系統沒有這位醫師所以他應該是新的頻道新的AI醫師剛提到的那位啊已經消失了他的頻道本來有很多訂閱現在出現了很多新的頻道比如說這個他裡面喔"},{"start":3414.207,"end":3432.993,"text":"就有很多醫生陳志明醫師的影片又回到這個頻道了並且這個頻道的訂閱有25.6萬是衛福部的6倍多衛福部現在是4萬訂閱然後下面的留言非常的踴躍因為很多長輩是看這個在吸收知識的我們再看下一個"},{"start":3437.193,"end":3438.654,"text":"那你覺得他講的正確嗎也不無道理啦"},{"start":3461.937,"end":3485.487,"text":"你看所以我也真的去查了這位醫師這位醫師是有這個名字可是因為我找不到他真實的照片所以不知道是不是真的他本人本人好但現在呢因為AI產生影片的速度非常的快我看了一下你們衛福部是4萬訂閱你有沒有考慮如果你用石崇良AI來做衛教也不會輸給他你覺得呢我考慮看看"},{"start":3491.26,"end":3511.085,"text":"我跟你說事情的嚴重程度是類似這樣子樣態的東西出來越來越多我們現在還不知道他的目的是什麼也許可以猜到一點點但是他正在蒐集大量的受眾如果您家有長輩或是一些家族的群組我相信他們應該會喜歡看這樣子的影片您認同嗎"},{"start":3514.926,"end":3537.581,"text":"這個他有一定的對象一定是這樣這種會有訂閱率的一定有他的一定對象那這個衛教的影片其實很多基層醫療也想要做好你也知道嘛有一些醫生他是喜歡做這樣子的事情可是第一他硬體軟體可能跟不上再來呢比起這些AI製作他是日更他可能很快就可以產出並且"},{"start":3539.462,"end":3566.695,"text":"他很懂心理學行銷學他會跟觀眾互動所以像這個醫師他最後會說如果你想要跟我一樣控制好血糖請在影片下方留言我想控制好血糖然後下面就一整排都是我想控制好血糖我想控制好血糖接下來再給你看其他的像這一位呢他也是有11.6萬訂閱但他想要規避所以一開始他稱呼自己是高醫師後來就說自己是高老師"},{"start":3567.955,"end":3573.441,"text":"那這個呢甚至還會帶貨這也是一個AI醫師最後你看他可能會說醫師教你如何刷牙然後再連結到這個產品那這個產品本身不一定是賣不好的東西我們沒有我自己還沒有去買買看我們不能保證但他現在就是一個沒有人監管的狀態所以"},{"start":3590.921,"end":3602.445,"text":"這是為什麼今天想質詢這個題目是因為這是真的收到的一個陳情就一些長輩他家裡看了這樣子的AI衛教影片那可能是醫師或護理師又連結到現在甚至呢這個詐騙集團他會盜用這個真實的一個護理師叫譚敦慈"},{"start":3609.628,"end":3636.289,"text":"他用他製作AI影片然後再做一個假的農會標章然後去推銷一些健康的農會的產品等等的那就去買嘛結果雖然長輩他可能沒有辦法去判斷這個連結到其實是海外的一些網站結果寄過來的東西完全就是名不符實就是一些垃圾然後不知道要找誰退款那因為這些東西最後齁您最後要面對的是"},{"start":3637.63,"end":3661.819,"text":"現在已經有醫師護理師很快你也會看到有營養師的頻道或者是復健師的頻道那你覺得你要怎麼應對我想這個問題從幾個層面來看第一個按照醫師法無視醫師身份是不可以自稱醫師這涉及到這個醫師法的密醫的行為那雖然他用的這個頻道他放的人他如果是他製作的"},{"start":3662.419,"end":3682.244,"text":"雖然不是用他自己的名字用一個假名用AI製造出來他可能也會涉及到醫師法的違反處分的部分我們會用嚴厲的處分因為平常的衛教當然過去很多坊間的衛教大家都在做這個資訊當中當然有一些確實性落差會有"},{"start":3686.585,"end":3701.577,"text":"不過因為如果你以醫師的身分因為這個可信度對民眾來講他的這個相信的程度會拉高所以不應該用這個醫師的所以這個才會在醫師法裡面去明定不是醫師者不可以自稱為醫師所以這個應該要按照這樣來查處"},{"start":3705.16,"end":3721.81,"text":"那第二個當然要趕快下架這個沒有問題這個我們會跟這個速發部趕快建立用這個PW那個區域下架我在這邊想要給您兩個建議就第一個因為七成的民眾其實他會先習慣從網路去獲取醫療的資訊所以衛福部就應該要主動的出擊"},{"start":3723.771,"end":3746.659,"text":"你們之前說會跟術衛部攜手合作那我現在想要知道說第一點落實快速下架的這個機制你多久可以做到因為我剛剛已經證明給你看了現在有很多包括灰色地帶他可能一開始說自己是遺失後來變成老實那第二個你是不是應該要建立一個及時澄清的機制"},{"start":3748.079,"end":3754.886,"text":"因為現在也有很多這個反詐的這些軟體他可能會協助長輩去判斷這些資訊是錯誤的那我認為你應該要把這些衛教的主導權從這些詐騙集團手中搶回來甚至這些AI的醫護人員或是醫事人員他還在帶貨所以你應該要有及時澄清下架的一條龍這樣子的程序"},{"start":3770.96,"end":3786.995,"text":"我希望你可以給我們一個進度而不是像我們四個月前覺得你要做結果四個月後其實沒有那你大概多久可以完成這兩樣事情這個快速下架應該會比較快啦這個我們跟速發部我們之前因為在那個有一些這個"},{"start":3788.536,"end":3814.172,"text":"那個影片這個那個性影像我們有建立這樣的機制的立刻都要讓它下架所以這個概念是相同那速發部的動作也很快所以我們大概一個禮拜內把這個一個禮拜內對好那這個澄清的機制我們來來把它建立起來因為這個還要一些這個資料做法上那這個因為都涉及到微教的比較多我也請國建署來辦這個事情"},{"start":3815.253,"end":3832.04,"text":"好 那下一個這個新聞你應該知道我不知道疾管署的同仁是不是有跟您表達了最近在某一個年輕的族群15到24歲他的梅毒罹患率急速的升高增幅是8%好 我們來看一下這張圖您看右邊紅線就表示這個15到24歲的年紀"},{"start":3835.762,"end":3861.2,"text":"那其中還沒有包括黑素因為15到18歲有可能這個性命是要通報的或者是需要家長陪同他們並不一定就會去就醫並且他會不好意思嘛那這個您也懂他可能嚴重的程度因為初期他的症狀不一定很明顯但到末期他嚴重程度會影響到神經包括平衡啊 視力啊或者是精神疾患啊更嚴重會到動脈瘤或者是心臟半膜等等"},{"start":3864.122,"end":3888.395,"text":"我查了一下台南就發表了三個20到30歲年輕的男生他們來一開始沒有想到是因為沒毒只是因為脾氣古怪或是有暴力傾向記憶力變差那甚至智力下降等等的找了半天才找到原來是沒毒感染並且在治療完畢以後這個智力並沒有恢復所以針對這個族群的人蠻嚴重的你如果沒有把他們快速的篩檢出來給予"},{"start":3890.416,"end":3913.331,"text":"快速的治療他後續影響的不只是生育能力尤其我們現在小子化他進一步會影響他未來整個神經系統嗎那這邊是不是多久以內可以請您請疾管署提供一個報告針對這個年齡層這麼快速爬升他地域性他的危險因子還有他你們面對這件事情的因應方案是什麼"},{"start":3913.911,"end":3940.7,"text":"好 跟委員說明我們也注意到這個現象那按照我們的統計來看那麼從去年跟之前的資料來看大概是零病的個案下降但是沒讀的個案上升那上升的族群主要是在19到24歲這個族群是上升的最快那如果以性別來看的話呢又以女性的 女性在這幾年"},{"start":3942.38,"end":3961.076,"text":"這兩三年的快速的上升所以這個跟全球也有發現類似在COVID之後有發現這樣的趨勢那我們也在探究背後的原因當然有一部分男女性女性多數是被害者"},{"start":3962.496,"end":3988.69,"text":"就是這個是這個安全性行為跟多元性多重性伴侶所造成的這個就是這個性行為的問題那女性在症狀上又比較這個不明顯所以就醫上會延緩這個也是一個問題所以我們從去年開始吧我們就有這個匿名篩檢因為這些青少年他就如同委員講的他是"},{"start":3989.81,"end":4019.159,"text":"不希望被發現比較害羞不希望被標籤化所以在看門診的時候有時候當然就比較不願意來就醫所以我們有這個叫匿名篩檢的一個平台在做我這邊先中斷一下因為主席的時間快到了那我先跟你要這個報告就是說我希望知道說這個年齡層你們未來要怎麼因應還有你們有沒有分析出他的原因跟危險因子"},{"start":4019.659,"end":4047.386,"text":"那第二這個是具體的建議請您看一下表格是台灣跟日本跟韓國最大的差別在於日本跟韓國他們是定期的就會在街頭做一些高頻率的宣導我們是偶爾有活動他並不是定期的那韓國是值得我們接近的因為他是直接把外展檢測服務拉出去所以他才可以快速的篩檢到這些高危險族群"},{"start":4048.724,"end":4071.28,"text":"你可以看到嗎有有有好那這個我事後再跟您請教一份報告因為你要先分析你的原因那你們才可以提出具體你們想要針對這個族群做什麼影響我想我們CDC有在監測這件事情他們有個分析好那我再跟你要報告可以可以沒有問題好一個月內謝謝好謝謝陳金輝委員接下來請邱惠如委員發言"},{"start":4093.064,"end":4099.558,"text":"主席還有各位委員同仁還有各位政府部門的同仁大家好那有請石部長有請石部長好"},{"start":4104.342,"end":4113.685,"text":"部長好我今天想跟您交流的主題是造福源職業範圍跟照護品質的問題我想造福源是我們長照體系第一線的尖兵如果要討論他們的職業範圍可能就要從護理人員的業務範圍這個角度先切入我想護理人員的業務範圍部長應該也非常的熟悉就是我們有一項業務範圍叫做醫療輔助行為"},{"start":4130.871,"end":4153.168,"text":"那醫療輔助行為這個行為的執行前提是要有醫師的指示才能夠執行那一百年呢衛福部有一個含釋就是抽談它是一個醫療輔助行為應該要在醫師的指示之下交由護理人員來執行那我們來看一下照服員的業務範圍照服員的業務範圍就是做一些家務日常生活跟身體的照顧服務"},{"start":4154.329,"end":4171.1,"text":"那所以呢換言之如果今天趙服務員他做了抽談的行為因為抽談的行為是一個醫療輔助行為他就會觸犯護理人員法37條的密戶罪那當然我們非常的了解抽談這個行為是一個醫療輔助行為但是"},{"start":4173.061,"end":4186.107,"text":"我們也非常能夠體諒到說護理人護理機構或者是長照機構因為人力不足所以礙於現實困境的考量部分的醫療行為特別是低度低危險的醫療輔助行為其實礙於"},{"start":4190.589,"end":4205.041,"text":"現實困境的考量不得不交給造福源來執行那所以我想衛福部的態度應該也是傾向這樣所以抽談這個行為在106年衛福部就做了放寬了就是把比較低度的抽談行為例如說"},{"start":4205.782,"end":4228.321,"text":"口腔內旋擁垂前的這個分泌物的抽吸那第二個就是氣切管內分泌物的抽吸這兩個低度的抽痰行為就放寬給造福源去做那到了109年又放寬了一樣就是鼻腔內分泌物的抽吸也放寬給造福源去做但前提就是要用手動吸鼻器來處理不能夠用機械的抽吸器"},{"start":4229.402,"end":4253.03,"text":"那111年呢就把這三個行為呢又整理到111年的韓式好那現在的問題呢我想要跟部長交換意見的問題就是說其實你們關於醫療輔助行為的韓式其實都散落各處散落各處真的很不容易查我有時候想去查一個韓式真的大海撈針然後很難找這是第一個問題那第二個問題就是韓式的解釋內容很零碎化"},{"start":4258.232,"end":4262.476,"text":"像我們如果看到這個109年的韓式我們會以為低度的抽談行為就只有這一項趙服務員可以做但是如果你又去看106年的就是分別找你只看到109或分別找你只看到106你就會覺得106好像趙服務員可以做兩項那我現在就覺得說解釋的內容非常的零碎化那是不是在這邊就是建議部長"},{"start":4281.052,"end":4310.125,"text":"能夠用一個叫做造福源的作業要點也好業務範圍要點也好把這些零碎化的解釋把它整合在這一步要點當中部長不知道有沒有困難應該可以這樣做我們目前把一些規範這個做成QA也好或者是在一個專區讓他容易查詢那基本上他應該是納入造福源的訓練因為我們造福源有訓練所以這一些"},{"start":4311.045,"end":4315.148,"text":"要做這些事情也都要經過訓練所以他應該要在趙服務員的手冊裡面訓練手冊裡面把它納入我知道謝謝部長願意來做一個整合但是其實真的以查找的迅速性還有就是法律的效力的位階來說的話你放在一個專區其實也不太好"},{"start":4335.663,"end":4349.359,"text":"查找如果有一個要點大家就直接找那個要點然後所有的答案就很清楚的羅列在那裡面所以我還是希望部長能不能考慮就是用這種因為要點其實他只是行政規則那你們就是把那些零碎化的資訊"},{"start":4350.64,"end":4378.53,"text":"放到這個要點裡頭其實會比較有效率性那除了抽談這件事其他的我呈現在畫面上的其他的醫療輔助行為其實也是部分低度的這些醫療輔助行為其實是放款給造福員去執行那一樣有散落各處而且資訊零碎化的一個問題那所以我才會建議說能不能用要點把這些資訊整合在一起這是第一件事情那第二件事情那我就來講一下就是說因為剛剛我們有看到說"},{"start":4380.11,"end":4404.061,"text":"100年的韓式說抽痰是醫療輔助行為護理人員應該在醫師的指示之下行之但是106、109、111又出現了三樣低度的抽痰行為是可以放寬給照服員去執行的那會出現一個現象就是說後韓式某個程度就抵觸前韓式那所以我建議這邊因為有些人會看得一頭霧水怎麼我這邊看到抽痰是"},{"start":4404.901,"end":4430.584,"text":"護理人員要親自為之的醫療輔助行為在那邊又看到說某些那個抽談是可以交給照服員做的所以可能大家會看得一頭霧水所以我認為說這些不合時宜的含釋不夠精確的含釋是不是可以廢止掉不一定要廢止或者是做一些修正才不會說大家東找一個看到A資訊西找一個看到B資訊然後會覺得說到底現在是什麼一回事完全搞不清楚"},{"start":4432.084,"end":4446.748,"text":"醫療輔助行為的界限因為衛福部的含釋就是會造成我們這樣混淆那除了抽談這個行為有這種後含釋抵觸前含釋其他的部分醫療輔助行為交給造福員去做的也一樣有這個問題所以部長不知道這個問題衛福部這邊可不可以來處理"},{"start":4449.849,"end":4476.09,"text":"謝謝委員指出這樣確實在過去因為時空背景不同那不斷的在演進那過去經常都是因為有一個這個譬如說某個單位或者是衛生局來詢問或者是建議這個行為可不可以由照服員來執行然後在經過團體大家討論之後認為說可以所以就出了一個函式所以都是one by oneone by one這樣子在做"},{"start":4477.071,"end":4482.735,"text":"累積久了之後確實也有必要那麼把它整合起來所以我會請業務單位呢把過去這個韓式裡面呢這個把它彙整起來那到底用什麼樣的方式來呈現讓業務單位再研究一下"},{"start":4493.204,"end":4509.241,"text":"OK好來那我們來看一下第三個問題第三個問題剛其實已經提到了這些低度的醫療輔助行為例如抽痰低度的抽痰行為就是礙於現實困境的考量那就交給照服員來執行我想這個就是衛福部這個不得不然的一個選項那我現在"},{"start":4510.683,"end":4517.986,"text":"比較想要跟部長交流的就是說那請問一下交給照服員來執行這些低度的醫療輔助行為那請問一下有沒有監督把關機制以抽談為例為什麼需要監督把關因為這個就是口腔內執行分泌物抽吸的步驟氣切管內執行分泌物抽吸的步驟那其實你可以從這些步驟看起來"},{"start":4533.052,"end":4550.961,"text":"他雖然名為分泌物的抽襲死者他就是抽痰死者他就是醫療輔助行為醫療輔助行為為什麼要交給護理人員來做因為護理人員有專業有品質比較能夠保障這個病人的安全那現在衛福部不得不然把他放寬給照服員去做那我覺得需要把關那第二個問題就是說"},{"start":4552.262,"end":4577.162,"text":"真的需要把關因為如果不當抽談有可能會造成肺炎氣道損傷然後低血氧症所以把關照服員有沒有執行的品質跟專業就需要用把關機制來做一個監控好那所以現在問題一請問一下因為你們還是說做這三個低度的抽談行為是非醫事人員的這個照顧服務提供者可以做好那我這邊羅列了三個角色請問這三個角色都可以做嗎"},{"start":4579.929,"end":4603.267,"text":"我們是現在是把他納入在照服務員的訓練當中主要他是以可視性他在他可視的範圍裡面看得到的範圍裡面去執行那麼會規定在這個懸擁垂之前也是避免他引發嘔吐的反應所以大概這個是需要訓練的所以我們的原則上是這樣來處理"},{"start":4605.808,"end":4624.981,"text":"呃我就是我的觀察我的觀察就是呃這三個人他在食物上都有做這三種人在食物上都有做好那部長知道做這個低度沖殘行為衛福部有做什麼管控措施嗎"},{"start":4626.315,"end":4653.74,"text":"我想是這樣當然我們的制度上是要求是照服員才可以做但是家人要自己做當然這個沒有什麼違法我知道因為你們的韓式歷來你們的韓式歷來就是針對因為回到居家的情境然後真的病人可能自己有執行的困難所以當然就可以由家人來輔助那你們的韓式當中也寫到說因為這不算是業務的執行所以家人是可以執行我直接講那個"},{"start":4654.6,"end":4666.832,"text":"我要跟部長交流的問題是什麼你們有設計一個造福員可以做的前提要件就是要接受16個小時的訓練還有實習課程那我想這個就是一個把關機制這個就是一個把關機制但現在重點來了請問一下有訓練的人可以做"},{"start":4670.916,"end":4689.368,"text":"那沒訓練的人可不可以做因為我剛已經提到了這個低度的抽痰行為他有他的危險性跟操作的專業性那你現在你剛只提到本國的造福院跟家人那請問一下外籍的看護工散落在家庭或散落在機構的看護工他們可不可以做"},{"start":4690.708,"end":4697.651,"text":"誰可以做的第一個問題那再來呢這些人可以做之後因為你們有一個把關機制就是參加16個小時的訓練課程那如果沒有參加訓練課程的人可不可以做這是我的第二個問題那我現在跟部長再進一步講其實沒有訓練的人他沒有罰則"},{"start":4707.876,"end":4724.041,"text":"所以換言之解讀起來呢誰都可以做路人甲也可以做所以你剛剛就回答家人也可以做那我是認為說應該要建立一個裁罰機制因為我剛剛已經說了操作步驟非常專業性再來不當抽檯會有那些結果所以我在這邊就是要懇請部長可不可以建立一個裁罰機制那為什麼因為"},{"start":4726.262,"end":4751.31,"text":"確保造福源有執行能力非常重要我PPT上呈現的是一個監察院的糾正文當中所呈現的司法判決就是有一個外籍看護工他就是在幫他的個案做抽談結果他因為不敢抽談不會抽談他就不想做結果就被雇主解除契約然後就被遣送回他的母國所以我在想有一些看護工你叫他做他沒有信心他沒有能力他不敢做所以我覺得不是"},{"start":4751.89,"end":4766.696,"text":"張三李四阿狗阿貓都可以來做要有經過訓練那如果沒有符合這些資格你要制定罰則如果沒有罰則這個低度的抽談行為真的是到處亂做真的會傷及病人的安全那部長你覺得如何建立裁罰機制"},{"start":4767.896,"end":4784.982,"text":"第一個在長照體系裡面不論是住宿式機構或者是社區或者是居服那麼都是要經過訓練的照服員才能夠執行另外如果是家人的自己照顧在家裡面的不是在機構的"},{"start":4786.002,"end":4810.943,"text":"那這個家人自己去執行的時候當然我們建議他去學習之後才執行但是是不是這樣要把他訴諸於要去要去克與他的處分或罰則其實這個要好好的研究這個跟無照保姆一樣嘛無照保姆現在兒童權法也沒有規範所以本黨昨天就在相同的地點相同的時間提出來說無照保姆應該做管制然後我們提出的方案是罰1到5萬的"},{"start":4812.764,"end":4834.812,"text":"而且要命令他立刻停止他的服務行為那因為這個低度的抽糖行為真的要建立一個管制機制我再往下部長可以再用兩三分鐘思考一下好所以監察院的糾正文也提到說到底我們開放給造福源去執行這些動作他們是做抽糖的行為還是做抽稀分泌物的行為其實有時候很難區分就像你們提到的口腔"},{"start":4836.292,"end":4853.524,"text":"玄翁槌前跟玄翁槌後 前可以做後不可以做其實趙芙芸坐下去有沒有越界其實我們也不知道所以要建立把關機制那這個是一個判決內容就是有個看護工他做抽談的行為超過玄翁槌被判密戶罪所以我覺得這裡要檢討就是說到底這個前跟後要怎麼樣去把關有些人僥倖心態我一條管子"},{"start":4858.968,"end":4878.522,"text":"放下去超過懸垂後其實只有我知道別人不知道其實他已經實則觸犯了那個密戶罪那另外一個是欠缺認知他不知道有前後的區別他做下去其實他觸犯了密戶罪這樣子所以有沒有越界應該要建立把關機制我最後一張就是說可不可以請部長提供給我們造福源業務範圍既有的含釋"},{"start":4879.503,"end":4899.104,"text":"因為他真的散落各處不好找那我們有了這個函式我們可以進一步再思考怎麼樣去完整化他們的業務範圍第二件事就是廢植或修正不合時宜的函式然後制定造福源的業務範圍要點這第二點那再來就是監督把關機制因為我現在聽起來我拿三個角色問部長部長好像覺得造福源可以那"},{"start":4899.725,"end":4921.838,"text":"外籍看護工散落在家庭跟機構好像你還沒有進一步明確的答案那操作的程序的監督好例如說學員學學學前跟後的把關機制然後還有建立法則這個都有待部長來幫我們健全照服員的一個作業要點因為這樣才能保障病人接受到的服務品質還有一個專業的一個水準好那真的"},{"start":4926.352,"end":4947.863,"text":"30秒30秒就是部長不好意思因為工會一直來跟我拜託說可不可以向您請勿說去年衛福部有協調醫院讓這個工會去做勞教那今年可不可以擴大辦理因為他們覺得是得正啦那既然是得正部長這邊可不可以再繼續延續這樣子那不好意思那位主席不好意思那再請那個衛福部長做回應"},{"start":4948.883,"end":4965.835,"text":"部長簡短的回答那個有關於這些函式我剛剛已經提過了因為這個有時空背景的演進所以我們把它整理一下讓它大家好查詢比較好清楚那也建立在我們照服務員的手冊裡頭我覺得這個是非常很好的建議我們來執行"},{"start":4968.516,"end":4991.521,"text":"思考一下好不好用要點那一個月好不好這三個訴求可不可以一個月法規上層面上到底應該用什麼樣的方式讓業務單位再研究一下了解好那這個擴大辦理可以嗎這個應該沒什麼問題還是有什麼好那再請部長一個月內把這些資訊提供給我們好不好謝謝好謝謝邱會務委員那接下來請王育民委員發言"},{"start":4999.175,"end":5003.717,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請洪部長有請洪部長今天召委排的議題跟長照有關 長照家庭的壓力都很大"},{"start":5021.021,"end":5043.634,"text":"那這個長照假看起來你們現在也沒有鬆口但是在討論這個議題之前我要讓部長來回顧一下之前我們其實也是解決長照家庭的壓力所以我們在委員會討論家裡有80歲以上的老人要免憑巴士量表可以聘外籍移工那我讓部長看一下你當時在2024年12月30號針對立法院這樣的法案"},{"start":5048.136,"end":5076.358,"text":"你這個發了一篇蠻長的臉書你所有的內容都是在反對立法院通過這一個80歲以上的老人免巴士量表可以聘看護工的這件事情你講了非常多的理由包括這個會產生器重就輕的現象包括你覺得外籍的看護工不是台灣要增加多少就可以增加多少"},{"start":5076.798,"end":5100.666,"text":"包括你提到這會造成薪資的一個浮動這個薪資會變高那另外你也提到這個品質堪憂等等而且你估的潛在的人力需求高達16萬這個是在你的臉書這個是你親自發文的沒錯了對那這個我要請教部長就是你當時極力的反對這樣的一個開放"},{"start":5102.99,"end":5132.518,"text":"申請外籍看護工這樣的一個政策你講了非常多的理由我寧可相信你這是一個專業出發的理由那我就請你用同樣的標準來看待你最近就是宣布12歲以下家裡有一個12歲以下的小孩就可以聘家庭幫傭的這件事情麻煩部長你用你當時同樣的標準來看待這一項大幅鬆綁的政策你是不是就是"},{"start":5134.48,"end":5152.418,"text":"雙標然後前後不移跟委員說明委員這邊寫說我們的態度是被動我想我們並不是被動執行所以這個案子是你主動提案的不是我的意思是說你這邊寫到說46條的修法被動執行我們並不是被動執行我想說給我一點時間說明"},{"start":5154.961,"end":5177.94,"text":"其實我們在去應該是去年的1月通過了這46條的修訂以後我們是很積極的研擬了六大的配套措施我們是主動研擬了配套措施你花了八個月的時間對因為我們包括跟衛福部之間我們包括系統的建置然後其實一些人員的配置其實我們研擬了包括有些在做法上流程上面"},{"start":5178.24,"end":5202.64,"text":"很好你花了八个月的时间去想你的配套这个我没有反对我是在讲当时法条要通过的时候你的立场还是极力反对因为通过之后你就必须去想配套我现在在问你的是请问12岁以下的儿童家里有12岁以下的儿童就可以开放家庭帮佣这件事情你赞成还是反对"},{"start":5203.1,"end":5232.744,"text":"那當然我們現在政策是已經拍板要來執行那你當時質疑這個80歲老人家裡有80歲以上的老人這不應該開放啊你的立場是很嚴格的你覺得連這個都不應該開放那你怎麼會去支持一個現在只要一個12歲以下的小孩就可以拼家庭幫用你不是說外籍移工不是你想增加多少就可以增加多少嗎那你當時所說的棄重就輕那會不會有更多人就不想照顧啊直接去照顧小孩啊"},{"start":5232.944,"end":5254.187,"text":"你所說的當時的理由現在還是不是理由跟文說明我們的確是在去年的整個配套的執行裡面我們發現這個配套的執行是有效的這個配套的執行有效下讓原本大家其實原本擔心的一些狀況可以緩解跟降低要不要承認你就是有雙標"},{"start":5255.328,"end":5279.34,"text":"你在開放12歲以下兒童這個就是可以找家庭幫用這件事情你就沒有嚴格把關你沒有比照是原來就是你之前發臉書的這麼嚴格的標準來看待這個新的政策跟我們說明重點是我們認為我們在去年的配套是有效的這個有效的配套下這個配套的有效之上可以確實是可以減緩一些原本大家"},{"start":5281.321,"end":5300.724,"text":"擔心的事情 你的配套大概只有氣重就輕這件事 你有說過外籍移工不是想增加多少就可以增加多少 是有沒有錯當然這個案都跟來源國有關所以我們後來 現在12歲以下家庭邦庸你們發的新聞稿是有144萬的家庭是符合資格的"},{"start":5301.968,"end":5327.924,"text":"這是消極資格並不是144萬都會來申請他想要來申請就可以申請啊沒有門檻嘛只要家裡有一個12歲的小孩就可以來申請啊那你怎麼不擔心並不是要多少就有多少那部長我再問你一句今天這一個開放12歲以下就有一個小孩就有家庭幫庸的是不是勞動部提出來的政策是不是你們提的這個是我想是我們跟衛福部一起來研擬的那個時部長請上台"},{"start":5331.935,"end":5352.187,"text":"衛福部有提供這個意見跟主張嗎你們主張就是家裡有一個12歲以下的小孩開放家庭幫忙是你們提出來的政策應該是這麼講在這個政策的研擬過程當中我們有提供一些數字包含在居家所以你們才是始作俑者是你們提的勞動部背黑鍋"},{"start":5353.949,"end":5382.637,"text":"委員這不是誰背黑鍋的問題那誰提的你回答嘛這其實就是我很好奇誰會提出這個政策大埔松保的政策這其實就是行政院裡面我們兩個部會其實一起來所以你們兩個共同商議的要提出這項政策對什麼時候什麼時候其實從去年就在評估啦去年什麼時候其實去年下半年就在我們在媒體上也有回答其實我們一直在評估這個政策中所以是去年勞動部就有這個想法"},{"start":5384.133,"end":5397.309,"text":"去年其實就開始在這個政策上面因為我們也看到了一些需求有些聲音然後我們把這些需求的聲音也做綜合的評估包括它的可行性包括的做法包括需要的配套"},{"start":5398.41,"end":5417.415,"text":"你去年就開始研議好那我就直接問你那你找了哪些團體來做你的這一些相關需求的評估哪一個團體跟你提出需求說麻煩勞動部開放家裡有一個12歲以下的小孩我就需要家庭幫忙跟我說明其實這不一定是哪一個特定的團體總是會有人提出來啊"},{"start":5418.295,"end":5433.346,"text":"我自己親自都跟蠻多其實有這個需求的雙親家庭的家長我自己親自跟他們談了解他們的需求的狀況那其實也有很多團體但會有持不同意見的那他們也在透過很多的方式意見的表達這些意見我們都有掌握"},{"start":5433.769,"end":5452.639,"text":"你開了哪些會議你可不可以告訴我就是你去年開了幾次會議找這些團體這個討論是非常多的不是說哪幾次會議的問題不要說非常多這非常的含糊啊我想在立法院委員會我想要了解就是說這個政策到底怎麼產生的嘛那你如果說是勞動部你主動那很好啊"},{"start":5452.759,"end":5477.876,"text":"那你勞動部主動是因為我們洪部長很關心這個議題你主動去找了一些的團體那我想知道是什麼時候然後有沒有做成任何的會議記錄因為至少這個議題在立法院是沒有正式討論過的也沒有專報也沒有委員任何的提案那只有一個可能就是你行政體系自己提出來的嘛那我今天要知道是勞動部主動想要大幅開放還是是衛福部覺得要解決少子化"},{"start":5482.899,"end":5494.359,"text":"提出了這樣的一個想法還是賴清德總統他認為這個政策好棒棒所以非執行不可你們是奉命執行"},{"start":5495.66,"end":5516.466,"text":"到底是哪一個答案我要跟你說明第一個因為本期覺得不合理啊不合理是你知道現行的規定是什麼嗎你家庭包容現在才多少人嗎2000人你現在是要三個六歲以下的孩子還有四個孩子有兩個是六歲以下那這個政策是可以討論的我覺得是可以討論的但是我沒有看到任何討論的過程我們看下一頁"},{"start":5522.348,"end":5549.775,"text":"過去我們在討論這個80歲以上要聘用外籍看護工他是長達14個月的時間在委員會多次的審議政黨協商三讀通過而且你們有8個月的政策準備期我就請問12歲以下小孩家庭聘用家事移工從宣布到上路你們就是一個月的時間這當中你跟我說你有開過會是在哪裡開會我要求交出會議記錄啊"},{"start":5552.785,"end":5577.417,"text":"昨天我在告訴你一件事昨天跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組的委員你有參與這個會議嗎 誰主持的今天有在現場嗎不是我主持的 是我們次長主持的昨天就有委員提醒你們你們在這件事情上面沒有配套措施也沒有考量民間團體的意見還在會議上面媒體都有報"},{"start":5578.837,"end":5604.088,"text":"那這件事情你還說你們都已經配套措施想好了如果這樣子那就那個委員不盡責啊昨天開會還在提這件事委員我們這個政策當然是有配套措施包括對本國工作者的配套包括對於一些服務品質的配套這個政策當然是有配套的你還要講服務品質這個政策在這個配套都在上個禮拜行政院的院會後的記者會其實有跟大家報告了"},{"start":5604.994,"end":5621.291,"text":"服務品質好我們來看一下再下一張服務品質這件事情這當中有非常多的灰色地帶一方面我們現在在修耳托專法我們對保姆我們對於托嬰中心我們有很多的要求跟期待"},{"start":5621.952,"end":5637.063,"text":"那這件事情你開放12歲以下的孩子這個幫庸直接進來他不會成為照顧的體系的一部分嗎家長不會請他照顧嗎那這當中前面你給他受什麼樣的訓練跟文說明第一個"},{"start":5637.543,"end":5654.155,"text":"你的配套說得太容易了但是我覺得你都沒準備在外籍幫傭的定位上面我們認為他其實比較是家務的幫傭但他可能會協助性的協助一些家人的照料協助性的會有家人的照料可是他的確現在跟專業的保姆之間的這個職能是有蠻大的落差"},{"start":5655.155,"end":5672.92,"text":"這個蠻大的落差包括其實一個保母她其實可能你的配套應該是告訴本席說你們針對這一類要進到家庭的你現在大幅開放他會接觸到孩子所以你事先給他什麼訓練你將來規劃的課程是什麼他們可能要接受哪些訓練第一個他在母國就會有一定時數的訓練多少時數"},{"start":5676.462,"end":5689.178,"text":"每個國家會不同那第二個是我們其實有規劃他進到台灣以後我想衛福部這邊會有給一個基本的照顧的課程有喔幾小時來部長回答 時部長回答幾個小時的課程還在規劃中"},{"start":5690.439,"end":5709.663,"text":"大概應該是這麼講就是說他不是取代專業的居家的那個保姆所以這個是不一樣的訓練那只是一些可能因為他在生活照料上會touch到會接觸到這個孩子他應該要注意的事項只是這樣所以聽起來都很模糊嘛我要直接講你剛剛講得很好啊這個開放80歲以上這個巴士量表你們花了8個月的時間兩個部會好好去討論真正的配套說是該怎麼做"},{"start":5719.065,"end":5743.957,"text":"你今天這個政策大幅鬆綁完全是先鬆綁然後再想配套事實就是如此真的不用再硬拗了那你就告訴我你們之前開了幾次會想配套如果你那個巴士亮表是花了8個月的時間請問你這個政策什麼時候跟衛福部開會然後去想配套我們私底下包括跟衛福部做了非常多次跟他們的次長做了非常多次都是私底下"},{"start":5745.455,"end":5758.717,"text":"就是對於有沒有正式的會議的時間跟技術有沒有對於配套跟對相關配套的發展我覺得這件事不用一套最後一個我要提醒你這不是硬拗我們的討論是非常多的當然就是硬拗我們看最後一張投影片"},{"start":5760.034,"end":5765.879,"text":"各個職業的缺工數昨天你們開會還討論這個農業移工其實也是相對嚴格的你們還綁了他的逃逸率的KPI所以你只給了7000名這個是你在對於農業移工你採取嚴格的審核但是我們看到家庭幫優你現在是大幅的送綁我跟你講為什麼因為農業移工的失聯率有9%"},{"start":5783.194,"end":5788.718,"text":"我要提醒你的是這個失聯率難道不用做處理不用管理嗎你應該秉於專業你不要一下子是在業黨提的你就嚴厲的反對那現在是總統交辦了你就大幅鬆綁你現在讓人家看到你的雙標是非常明顯的能業移工他的失聯率的狀況難道勞工部我們不用跟勞工部不用來面對嗎"},{"start":5804.77,"end":5825.255,"text":"那你標準要一致啊你農業這邊還繼續嚴格沒問題我現在就是看到你獨獨大幅鬆綁是有一個12歲以下的小孩家庭的看護工的失聯率大概只有一點多趴所以你是用失聯率來看囉我說農業移工我們之所以要比較嚴格的原因是因為他的失聯率真的比較高"},{"start":5826.915,"end":5842.361,"text":"這件事情大家看得明白你這個政策就是衝突上路不然民團不會有那麼大的聲音嘛你的委員不會昨天的會議還告訴你說請參考民團的意見那最後我問你民團要求的政策衝擊評估報告你要不要提一定會提"},{"start":5843.081,"end":5868.934,"text":"什麼時候因為這個報告是在行政院的姓評會提出這樣子的要求所以我們會在下一次的姓名會來提出這樣的報告多久以後就看行政院下一次姓名會什麼時候開好這個評估報告我要求給這個委員會這邊本期這邊我們要一份當然看你們徹底的評估報告好不好我只是最後提醒所有的政策就是標準要一致不要因為只是總統交辦的就這樣子"},{"start":5871.643,"end":5888.188,"text":"就是大幅的鬆綁然後找一個理由然後就這樣子大幅的通過的確很多雙性家庭是有這個需求的當然是可以討論但是你前後標準不一是有這個需求我們是在這個需求下進行評估的好謝謝王育民委員接下來請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":5904.003,"end":5918.135,"text":"好 謝謝主席謝謝主席安排今天的主題就是在職照顧者支持體系的需求那癌症也是重要的需求很高興今天有兩位部長在現場我還是先請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":5923.893,"end":5946.164,"text":"今天有兩個題目來跟兩位部長討論一下第一個就是配合健康台灣癌症死亡率降低這個國策重要的國策那我們在執行上需要還有哪些可以調整的地方第二部分就是強化癌症患者經濟穩定與職場的友善那這部分當然會牽扯到我們勞動部的洪部長"},{"start":5947.664,"end":5971.273,"text":"我們也了解台灣的癌症經過這幾十年來大家的努力其實存活率已經有明顯的改善我們在30年前1987年那時候存活率是45.4那到2017、2021的這些癌症診斷者他的存活率已經達到62.3%這個都是大家共同努力的成果"},{"start":5971.773,"end":5999.295,"text":"那我相信未來還會更好因為我們投資了大量資源那同時也有非常好的一些措施來改善這樣的機會的成果是非常高的那白總統他在癌症治療的部分也有很大的期待就是透過這個三支箭來讓這個2030年的這個癌症死亡率可以減三分之一那這部分大家都很努力的希望能夠讓他有機會促成"},{"start":5999.915,"end":6027.862,"text":"不過不管怎麼樣如果真的要把這個降低三分之一的目標達成的話那以2024年癌症死亡人數是54032人為例的話那我們需要到2030年死亡人數要降低到18000人以上才有辦法達到這樣的目標那意思就是說我們會有非常非常多的癌症病人離癌以後他變成是一個康復者或者是一個癌症的存活者他在這個過程裡面"},{"start":6028.582,"end":6055.236,"text":"就會有很多需要政策或各方面要來調整的地方那我們了解這個癌症存活率增加以後相對來講可能就會有各方面的問題會出來包括當他在治療的時候可持續可負擔的治療與用藥那總統的這個百育癌症基金基本上就是希望能夠幫助這個部分那當然這些癌症病人他復健啊"},{"start":6056.036,"end":6071.497,"text":"後續的追蹤避免復發也都是重要的課題那我們也了解在這個診療以後有一部分的癌症病人可能他的身體狀況各方面不是那麼理想那就需要好的長照資源的整合一起來處理"},{"start":6072.398,"end":6096.452,"text":"那如果他康復得非常順利那他也具有好的工作能力所以繼續工作以經濟穩定就變成是可以讓他們持續對社會有所貢獻那我們可以理解如果這些癌症存活者他能夠提供好的工作能力的話那對勞工來講他可以經濟穩定那同時也有身心回歸到社會"},{"start":6097.452,"end":6118.161,"text":"持續來幫助社會那對僱主來講他就可以避免這個手手的離職他可以穩定他整體的這些工作量能讓整體的這個企業運作可以更順暢那對政府來講當然是可以減少勞動力的減損所以我們認為這個癌症存活率的增加是非常重要的部分那"},{"start":6119.842,"end":6133.491,"text":"所以如何能夠讓政府來協助跟這個跟資方的協調讓癌症的存活者可以順利的讓他的工作跟經濟穩定都可以達到目標所以在這些需求之下"},{"start":6135.032,"end":6164.53,"text":"法治如何能夠有機會來改變癌症防治法在2003年就成立到目前已經有23年的時間那其實過去這這麼多年來對於這個目前18條的立法框架並沒有很大的改變第一次修法是在2018年那個修法除了改變名稱以外就是調整癌症防治委員會的成員讓他更多元還有就是增加主管機關可以"},{"start":6165.211,"end":6182.371,"text":"在辦理這個癌症預防增加監會的部分透過N捐跟團體的捐助我們不知道團體捐助到底有多少的益助不過起碼這也是一個修法的內容那第二次的修法是在2023年只是把科技部門名稱改成國科會"},{"start":6183.332,"end":6201.25,"text":"所以未來我們要到達達到2030年這麼遠大的目標我們在法制上我們如何能夠同步的做修正看起來是勢在必行大概我們剛剛提到的有這麼多的勞工朋友他癌症也康復了如何能夠讓厲害的勞工"},{"start":6203.312,"end":6228.541,"text":"適性配工 植物再設計還有鼓勵支持方案等等長照資源怎麼整合還有避免罹癌治療導致財務毒性剛剛所提到的一些問題還有有沒有相關的措施跟統計分析還有罹癌生活模式的改善等等這個都是希望再過來做癌症防治法修飾裡面重要的一些我們想要去了解的地方"},{"start":6229.381,"end":6256.734,"text":"那再過來我們也了解目前第五期的國家癌症防治計畫是2024年到2030年要執行那這個我們看到有關於癌症存活者的部分呢他其實相對是比較重視在照護跟安寧緩和療護如果他是無法治癒而是一個在需要處理者的話所以在這個部分針對於癌症康復者"},{"start":6257.674,"end":6275.267,"text":"有沒有更好的這個處理模式或者是需求我們目前看到這個計畫裡面相對來講是比較缺乏的那以這個跟各部位的合作為例勞動部的部分呢他其實就相對比較簡單還是維持在做這個職業性的癌症"},{"start":6276.868,"end":6297.067,"text":"這個危害的預防還有協助做這個勞工的這些癌病的篩檢等等這個看起來對於存活者的這個友善或者是需求好像還有機會來做精進那我們針對勞動部過去這20年來我們也看到跟癌症比較相關的就是這個勞保職業病給付"},{"start":6298.588,"end":6321.932,"text":"的職業相關癌症那20年來只處理了將近700件那我們每一年有13萬的這個新病例產生所以如何能夠讓這個勞動部這方面有更好的協助其實我們可以看到很清楚從數據上勞動部可以更積極的來協助我們這些罹癌者未來在勞動過程當中得到的這個勞動部的協助"},{"start":6325.453,"end":6350.174,"text":"不過我們也很感謝勞動部在針對這個中央癌症防治匯報裡面的報告希望能夠針對這個職場的重返包括剛剛所提到的適性配公司、賽車系等等都有積極的在延續可行的方向作為將來勞動部所能夠支持的包括企業評比、永續發展等機制讓大家都可以瞭解"},{"start":6351.135,"end":6358.006,"text":"針對於財務的部分我們也知道其實台灣目前並沒有國家級的本土研究"},{"start":6359.319,"end":6387.1,"text":"這方面我們真的很希望能夠讓疑癌家庭跟這個癌病病人治療過程當中所發揮的費用統計能夠有更好更全面的這些國家級的本土研究那這其中裡面有一項就是就業狀態是很重要的一個因素那這個因素國際研究告訴我們它是一個影響的指標所以未來在做研究的時候我們希望把這個內容能夠含括進來"},{"start":6388.069,"end":6411.932,"text":"那智慧的這些處理是癌有不可承受之重這個就是所謂的癌相關的才有毒性依照這個病友團體他們2022年的這個報告裡面有20%的病人他們在治療過程當中會超過100萬那一般的家庭當年的儲蓄可能只有27.4萬所以有這麼多的病人"},{"start":6412.512,"end":6434.745,"text":"一般家庭一旦有人離開可能會從平民變成平民這個是希望大家共同再來努力的地方所以剛講了那麼多期待的就是針對於這個存活率的增加那在修法上面如何研擬它該有的內容還有它的可行性"},{"start":6435.365,"end":6454.375,"text":"第二部分就是針對罹癌存活率的增加應該研擬怎麼樣調整國家的癌症計畫我們剛看到2030年的計畫裡面我們希望把這些也都能夠有機會去做調整那這兩部分我們希望能夠透過衛福部的跟大家共同來努力"},{"start":6454.875,"end":6477.977,"text":"那第三個部分就是請問部或者是適合的單位進行理解對個人經濟跟家庭財務的影響以及相關職業跟工作衝擊的研究來完備整個未來希望做改善的部分那針對第一項跟第二項會請部長有一個完整的書面報告在三個月裡面提供我們做參考"},{"start":6478.317,"end":6492.313,"text":"那第三點的部分是不是有啟動了一些機制讓我們可以針對這些內容做本土研究好 跟委員說明那麼確實這個癌症防治法已經很久了這個是2003年的立法"},{"start":6493.294,"end":6518.713,"text":"現在癌症的照顧當然也從身心靈是全方位的照顧所以過去這幾年我們也在105個醫院成立了這個癌症支援中心就是希望結合除了身心靈照顧之外還包含家屬的支持權益的保障等等那這當中當然也包含需要有一些支援互相之間的連結包含這個如何能夠再回到這個工作的職場"},{"start":6519.674,"end":6548.557,"text":"所以這個部分我們來看看這個是不是需要修正這個癌症防治法至於說這個癌症相關的研究按照癌症防治法就是要進行這個research的這個是每年都在持續的進行當中但是在這個委員所提到的這個個人經濟跟家庭財務的影響的部分我們來研議把它納入在這未來的癌症的這個研究的題目裡頭"},{"start":6549.398,"end":6568.067,"text":"是好謝謝那這個部分就麻煩在第一第二項給我們書面報告那第三項也到時候讓我們多了解一下齁再回來等這個演繹謝謝謝謝施部長那我再請教一下我們洪部長也謝謝洪部長對於這個勞動朋友他們離開過程裡面的得到"},{"start":6568.527,"end":6591.963,"text":"很多相關的協助先表達感謝我們也希望勞動部能夠建置離愛勞工職場友善資訊專區我相信這個專區就比如像身心障礙者接位支援等等的這個專區一樣我們希望透過這個專區的設置可以讓這個癌友使用法定的權益等等以外那也可以"},{"start":6593.084,"end":6612.306,"text":"把一些常見的QA包括僱主跟勞工之間的問題能夠透過這個專區來做友善的連結那這個部分我們也常常接收到相關的訊息就是可不可以請勞動部可以再做一些司法性的事宜包括說"},{"start":6613.607,"end":6639.506,"text":"我們了解這麼多的勞動朋友他一旦離開以後那在職的勞工經過治療那事業單位以業務緊縮沒有工作崗位為由來解雇那不讓勞工回來這是常見的一個面向樣態另外在職勞工離開以後雇主不願意調整職務或者是提供教育訓練來協助勞工改善就直接把他解雇這是另外一個面向"},{"start":6640.186,"end":6667.306,"text":"那另外一種雖然比較少見可是還是會出現的是面試雙方合意拚顧以後勞工去健檢發現糟糕厲害了公司隨即表示不再雇用那這些面向是不是能夠麻煩勞動部這邊有一個專區來做回答以外那也可以通行給地方政府跟相關的單位來做一個函示避免相關的爭議的再現那不知道這邊部長"},{"start":6668.487,"end":6686.381,"text":"好 那個第一個很謝謝委員對於這個離開勞工的關心那就委員剛才講到包括我們在網站上的專區那其實是有些資料在上面只是我們也可以來檢討那把它其實放置的位置能夠更顯眼更容易查找的到這部分我們會來努力"},{"start":6687.362,"end":6713.002,"text":"第二是委員剛剛提到的這三個意見我想我們應該都是可以來做成相關的函式甚至我自己是希望我們盡快兩個禮拜內我們把它完成這樣子好謝謝部長也謝謝主席謝謝王振旭委員那接下來請林淑芬委員待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息十分鐘"},{"start":6722.895,"end":6727.78,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們洪部長有請洪部長部長"},{"start":6739.749,"end":6754.816,"text":"這個你們開放了12歲以下有小孩的家庭就可以直接申請這個外籍幫傭那剛才你很多委員問了那你說你們評估很久事實上也真的評估很久了那我現在要問你們你們到底做了什麼評估"},{"start":6756.825,"end":6774.738,"text":"具體的你們評估至少去年我問你你就說你們正在評估至少在你沒上任以前他們也說他們在評估了在勞動部而言已經評估很久沒有兩年三年也很多年了那你可以具體告訴我你們評估多久了然後評估什麼結果報告來了可以告訴我們嗎"},{"start":6777.399,"end":6801.626,"text":"第一个其实在这几个月里面我们第一个还是要先去掌握到底有没有这个需求或需求的样态这样问你说你们做了失业冲击评估了吗我们其实我们其实对于包括他可能会会对于这个托育的人员或者是家事的人员其实可能会有会不会对你先回答我有多少家事服务"},{"start":6802.546,"end":6825.514,"text":"呃員的從業人員多少的居家保姆多少終點家事工終點替人家煮飯打掃的你先告訴我有多少從業人員再來告訴我你們評估這幾年了不是幾個月你沒上任以前他們也說他們在評估那評估這麼久了衝擊是多大跟文說明吼第一個家事從從業人員是1.3萬人"},{"start":6827.635,"end":6842.844,"text":"家事從業人員1.3萬然後呢居家保姆多少人居家保姆大概2.8萬人終點這個家事打掃的還有煮飯的多少家事從業人員是1.31.3萬你們從以前就這樣講其實不止欸現在多少廣告都在講說我倒數來幫你煮飯欸你們關於這個評估怎麼統計的你告訴我統計資料怎麼統計這個結果居家是2.8萬對你要告訴我居家的數字應該是為什麼這邊"},{"start":6858.986,"end":6874.645,"text":"跟委員補充我們在到宅的就是到家裡去服務的保姆大概是3000我們是講保姆保姆就是知道啦保姆大概就是全部就是居家保姆就有證照的兩三萬我們都知道啦我在問他的是勞動領域的啦"},{"start":6878.55,"end":6889.515,"text":"我們其實是從相關的職業公會這邊那你們做的時候衝擊會有多少嗎會有多大嗎委員 這確實是要看到時候申請的量有多少所以你們都沒有做出具體的衝擊評估"},{"start":6891.832,"end":6898.415,"text":"那你們做了性別影響評估了沒因為性評會教學你們不做你們做了兒童最佳權利的評估了嗎沒聽過有做嗎我們相關的評估都有在做是報告還沒寫出來都沒有寫出來那我們報告那你們看過報告了嗎有其中的有final的報告出來了嗎沒有最終的版本性別影響評估我們會在下一次的性別影響會議"},{"start":6916.563,"end":6941.178,"text":"失業衝擊報告也沒有寫出來失業影響評估的報告也沒有寫出來兒童最佳利益的評估也還沒有寫出來然後你們就直接就開放了我現在問你就說你都不知道有多大衝擊評估都不知道你就開放了現在我問你說守法是基本的嘛你知道我們的外勞政策最要緊的是要守住哪一個哪一條嗎"},{"start":6944.076,"end":6947.66,"text":"本國人的就業權利我們是以補充為原則不能夠產生替代那是救福法第42條42條那他有沒有產生替代我現在告訴你說如果外籍看護工這個在長照的領域絕對絕對是補充原則"},{"start":6966.971,"end":6980.005,"text":"但是在家事 幫傭還有顧小孩的這個領域絕對絕對是衝擊原則產生了替代了 替代原則了這是違法的 我跟你講 這是違法的"},{"start":6987.611,"end":7016.014,"text":"那我覺得更看不懂開放外籍幫傭你們的次長李建宏說提升生育率勞參率不是政策目標因為因為脫盟啊其他社會的那個社運團體啊還有公民團體啊他們質疑開放家庭幫傭是沒有辦法提高女性的勞參率和生育率甚至在新加坡生育率是下降的"},{"start":7017.16,"end":7043.828,"text":"當他們這麼說的時候李建宏次長說提升生育率跟勞參率婦女的勞參率不是我們的政策目標那請問你保證我剛才問你這不是你的目標嗎你的政策目標是什麼我跟委員說明第一個我們其實在這個政策裡面最重要的幾個目標第一個是希望讓勞工尤其雙薪家庭的勞工可以減少離職安心上班這是第一個第二個是家庭減壓"},{"start":7044.568,"end":7057.029,"text":"有人因為12歲的小孩以下會離子的就是女性沒聽過是男性啦幾乎很少啦很少也有爸爸有很少啦大多數都是女性啦"},{"start":7058.123,"end":7064.768,"text":"所以你不要講說雙薪家庭 你要講說女性女性的勞參率大幅下降 托盟已經講過N變了我們也講過N變 兩個階段一個是小孩 一個是就救孩子 再來就是職場的第二個滑坡就是救孫 把孩子帶走全部都是救孩子 而這數十年來我們把"},{"start":7086.025,"end":7099.641,"text":"這個照顧的政策這樣一步一步整個公民社會整個台灣的政府一步一步的就把這些照顧的責任再往良好的公共政策把照顧公共化"},{"start":7100.851,"end":7117.907,"text":"我們透過育兒的政策照顧假的政策留職停薪的政策然後未來也有很多人在講要有薪無薪的照顧假等等配套一直進來然後你們不是在什麼育兒補貼嗎政府的現金補貼不是也都進來了嗎"},{"start":7121.67,"end":7135.874,"text":"我們一步一步在往這個公共照顧化公共化照顧的方向在前進而你今天這個政策其實在鼓勵大家說不用了有錢的就自己買照顧家庭化付費化然後自己買單所以整個整個照顧的政策走回頭路"},{"start":7150.046,"end":7170.336,"text":"對不對我可以說明嗎你的政策目標是在大開三十年往公共化的照顧政策的反方向我們比方說育嬰留庭的彈性以日情現在也是我們大力正在推動的未來也希望能夠擴大研議現在很多如果外籍邦傭進來我請教你他可不可以顧小孩"},{"start":7180.131,"end":7208.017,"text":"他當然可以輔助性的會參與一些小孩的這個照料餵飯等等這些都很有可能的你們的社家屬衛福部的社家屬張美美副署長說外傭只會是家長的幫手家長在的時候是由家長負責照顧責任啊你們不是說要減輕女性的勞動力勞工的這個家庭負擔嗎啊家庭在我都上完班下班了累死了我要怎麼顧"},{"start":7209.554,"end":7219.342,"text":"以增加女性留住女性勞參率為前提去開放然後你說家長在的時候就要自己顧這樣子有減輕女性的負擔嗎我下班了家長沒有上班大家就送到這個托嬰或是保姆或是托育機構或是學校"},{"start":7235.031,"end":7263.429,"text":"那我下班了就自己顧下班再來的時候就回來很累還要顧所以就很累但你們現在說這個政策是只要你在家顧小孩這個幫庸是不能顧的這不是到底是要顧還是不能顧我們不是說不能顧其實應該是它的確是一個比較輔助性的可是的確它我們在我們在這個評估的過程我們現在也看到有蠻多不同的樣態我現在就是說你們在這裡都是睜眼說瞎話其實都是全部交給外傭顧啦"},{"start":7265.362,"end":7272.205,"text":"老實說就全部丟給外傭誰不知道現在長照制度裡面說是要照顧失能的誰不知道家事啦煮飯全部都是那個外籍移工要做大家都知道你說自己家庭幫傭不是照顧小孩的騙笑的嘛 沒可能嘛可是我要講你們不是把這個照顧公共化的政策走回頭路而已你們還把顧小孩連保母顧小孩都要正照制度"},{"start":7294.756,"end":7295.839,"text":"你連顧小孩都認為不需要專業連語言都不需要專業了"},{"start":7301.807,"end":7327.312,"text":"顧小孩 外傭顧他的語文能力 連這個都不需要顧及了然後呢 保姆要政造制度你們也不用了依據兒少權法保姆居家室托育服務提供者應向各地方政府主管機關辦理登記然後沒有的話是不行的 不能顧小孩的現在是外籍幫傭 外傭就可以顧小孩"},{"start":7328.681,"end":7332.322,"text":"這個是連照顧小孩 托育制度都在走回頭路欸我現在講說你們有做出兒童最佳利益的評估嗎在這裡勞動力被取代了然後托育政策走走回頭路然後整體三數十年來努力的照顧公共化也走回頭路"},{"start":7358.769,"end":7373.1,"text":"保定你到底承不承認會不會對本國就業會造成失業衝擊啊我們會在這個我們會有一定的就業政策的支持所以你承認是有衝擊嗎"},{"start":7375.298,"end":7385.77,"text":"當然如果沒有任何配套的話或多或少都會有一點影響怎麼或多或少會有一點影響但是這是為什麼我們要訂立配套來設家屬你們政策公佈以後"},{"start":7389.306,"end":7396.289,"text":"社家屬雖然是衛福部的馬上開了一個會3月23號叫大家來開會開會是通3月23發文3月24就要開開了一個因應勞動部外籍幫傭政策的相關配套專案會議這個會議在講什麼這個會議在講勞動部的業務裡面最核心就是在講"},{"start":7418.278,"end":7421.239,"text":"居家托育人員多元就業獎勵計畫所以你們知道說這個會受影響嗎會直接會衝擊到本國就業嗎所以我們要提就職職的方案你是無可替代到非開放不可嗎"},{"start":7440.1,"end":7463.591,"text":"沒有就都沒人做了嗎 現在先行就是有人做有錢人請會去外邦傭的 現在也是請本國邦傭在做啦你自己說我開放外國邦傭 他更爽 有錢的人家庭 因為更有薪金請不上去的 因為我也是請不上去來 恐受影響 所以你們明明知道"},{"start":7464.975,"end":7487.009,"text":"這一些不管是顧小孩的終點家事的幫忙倒載煮飯的倒載打掃的保姆還有保姆包括保姆我請問你如果一般人失業可以領失業給付他們這些人可不可以領如果被外籍幫傭來取代掉了他們可不可以領失業給付如果當然是失業的話當然都可以領失業給付"},{"start":7494.122,"end":7498.896,"text":"那是要有雇主的啦對有雇主當然可以領稅這些人有雇主嗎"},{"start":7500.563,"end":7524.999,"text":"不要不許人煎煙火在你們開放這個政策會受到就業受衝擊會失業會被取代掉的人他們都是投保在職業工會哪一個是有僱主的我們有評估過第一個他其實不是一個失業的邏輯基本上他可能會比方說有可能假設都沒有配套的話他可能確實會有一些服務的失誤"},{"start":7525.339,"end":7530.701,"text":"你的配套是什麼 你配套就是這個 拿就業安定基金給獎勵金不是嗎你們24號召集大家你們評估的就是8000人受益就是你們評估8000人會失業所以計劃錢就來自於就業安定基金就是你們評估失業了要給獎勵金 前一頁你們就是要給獎勵金"},{"start":7550.846,"end":7562.732,"text":"跟委員說明救安定基金不是只是因為他失業而是他可能包括他勞務上面包括各種的需求我們都知道啦還包括他的培訓還再去轉職訓練啦總而言之如果你沒有開放這些外籍幫傭不會衝擊到他的就業他不會失業他都用不著你我可以自己賺錢我幹嘛還需要去領你那多少錢啊你能夠給多久你能夠給多久再來"},{"start":7579.921,"end":7593.762,"text":"在一些從業人員居多包括保姆包括家事服務工終點的服務工到宅煮飯的很多都是本來就是二度就業的而且都是婦女的從業人員的"},{"start":7595.965,"end":7612.27,"text":"你讓他們在這裡再失業一次你覺得他們還會再轉業嗎不是中高齡轉業 是高齡再轉業他們會 大家都知道轉職再轉職 越轉越往下往下流的地方流啦我是覺得說"},{"start":7619.534,"end":7633.885,"text":"一邊說不會被取代掉不是失業不是被取代掉然後你在這邊說我一邊要規劃他們轉職補助還有其他就業訓練轉職訓練還有其他的你剛剛講還要其他所以你的意思其實就是到底承不承認對本國的從業人員真的造成失業衝擊明明就是失業衝擊你在這裡還要講說沒有不是"},{"start":7648.973,"end":7665.609,"text":"跟文說明第一個當然如果都沒有任何配套的話確實會獲得你的配套就是失業以後我給你配套來承擔我們正更多的在就業上面的支持其實更多是希望能夠擴展他勞務的機會而不一定一定是他是失業以後擴展他勞務的機會就是讓這個市場變大"},{"start":7672.876,"end":7682.704,"text":"那我問你如果這個市場有需求有能力負擔我會早不請晚不請你說現在找便宜的我跟你講真的有這麼便宜嗎如果可以請外勞終點加外勞我早就想要請了我幹嘛等到你開放你說因為開放以後會比較便宜你一定說比較便宜所以他會請得起嘛你的理由是這樣嘛我現在要告訴你我們當時而且你也同意"},{"start":7700.538,"end":7703.703,"text":"在國民黨修法要開放80歲以上全部開放外籍看護的時候長照失能的時候我們當時就講 你也這樣講"},{"start":7711.297,"end":7737.554,"text":"整個外籍移工的就業市場供給遠遠小於需求供給遠遠小於需求當你開放了在顧小孩在做家事的這邊的幫傭如果不是144萬的需求五分之一就好了二十幾萬的需求就跟你再評估八十幾歲 八十歲"},{"start":7740.136,"end":7767.494,"text":"這個開放外籍看護一樣我們評估二十幾萬人有這個需求就好了 同樣的邏輯他會不會照 我不要講說全部就馬上沒工啦大家寧可去當家事幫傭 外籍醫工大家寧可去顧小孩誰要去顧長照的失能的重度癱瘓的 沒有"},{"start":7768.354,"end":7776.393,"text":"如果移工他如果可以選擇可以轉換雇主他一定馬上說我要換去雇小孩誰要雇這個癱瘓在那裡的"},{"start":7778.342,"end":7803.843,"text":"而且這個市場供給小於需求所以需求面 你開放了 需求面擴大了那麼市場的價格就會上漲了大家都知道這個價格已經上漲了還沒有開放外籍家庭幫傭的時候已經上漲我再問你一件事開放外籍幫傭要不要適用勞基法你可不可以回答我"},{"start":7804.85,"end":7828.258,"text":"這一些在幹顧長照的都不用適用勞基法沒有得到勞基法的勞動權益勞動條件的保障那我再問你在幹顧小孩家庭幫傭的這一些外籍移工外籍幫傭要不要適用勞基法你在這裡回答我目前就法規上面家事移工是沒有適用勞基法"},{"start":7829.687,"end":7838.493,"text":"他是因為長照那個是政策上的管制現在我問你現在家庭當庸你還是要繼續讓他不適用可是即便因為大家適用了勞動力就沒那麼便宜了啦"},{"start":7844.978,"end":7863.084,"text":"那大家要問你 你都以前就知道的在家事服務的領域裡面 在私領域裡面長期都有勞動條件上的不公平 甚至剝削的情形你以前當立委的時候 在這裡也大家的撻伐過的你講過的 那這個事情你還是要維持不適用勞基法"},{"start":7870.186,"end":7880.512,"text":"你覺得這樣子 這樣子的糾紛會不會更多現在我給大家講喔你不要以為不是用勞基法比較便宜 沒有因為大家的玩家越來越多"},{"start":7881.82,"end":7885.301,"text":"因為我沒有想要照顧家事幫傭的孩子家事幫傭的你不給我照顧我就每天跟你玩遊戲然後這個衝突衝突就把照顧的責任丟給家庭自行去買單家裡面你自己照顧外籍幫傭的"},{"start":7904.545,"end":7918.713,"text":"失能的老人 外籍搬佣跟僱主 大家說 我要完結 他自己去承擔 情緒也會負擔然後政府雙手一攤說 這個跟我無關 跟我無關的 我都不用去煩惱這個政府什麼都不用做 就要完結是僱主跟外籍看護跟沒辦法的失能的被照顧者 現在"},{"start":7931.548,"end":7953.953,"text":"現在這個吵架會吵得更嚴重我在這裡可以告訴大家因為你又開放了可以顧小孩大家更想轉職但我們的法規規定不可以轉換雇主要雙方合一才可以所以每天跟你玩玩到有一天你雇主受不了啊你終於就說 好吧 放你走吧"},{"start":7956.653,"end":7966.758,"text":"請問那未來長照顧詩能的長期躺在那裡 重度的誰人要顧 外籍幫傭 外籍移工真的遠遠不絕嗎保證你回答我"},{"start":7971.363,"end":7987.305,"text":"跟委員說我們第一個在這個外籍看護工或外籍幫傭上面其實即便他是在家庭裡面的權利其實我們都希望接下來我們其實也透過相關的這個雇主的手冊或各種其實盡力的希望來去做維護"},{"start":7988.366,"end":7990.527,"text":"你現在做保釣也很厲害 做瓜也很厲害你現在講話跟以前做立委都不一樣我們現在說 其實你如果說 喔 誠實地告訴社會我這個衝擊有多大 當然我準備怎麼做 那"},{"start":8005.655,"end":8007.376,"text":"這個對兒童的權益會有影響什麼那你們還會怎麼做那如果對這個性別影響是什麼我準備怎麼接起來那我們還可以在你們心裡面想說至少這是一個負責任的套路我還沒講完嗎第一個對於他可能會在跟本國工作者"},{"start":8027.047,"end":8044.138,"text":"跟針對本國工作者上面可能的工作的影響的部分我們會跟衛福部這邊來擬一整套的計畫來去支持本國工作者在勞務上市場的拍拖衛福部其實是喔老實說是你們固定聲音就聲了啦我現在要說衛福部也有啦欸 抱歉 兒童托育服務法不用立得這麼嚴了啦"},{"start":8049.241,"end":8055.325,"text":"整個法還在立法院協商我跟各位來用心跟三更半明跟整個開好開滿然後說嚴格管制保姆然後居家托兒要怎麼規範一邊強度的規範托育然後在這裡立法要很高強度的管理一邊要放寬沒有訓練的外籍幫傭來育兒"},{"start":8076.318,"end":8079.682,"text":"這個政府在那裡兩個政策在那裡打架啦所以說這個我們的托育服務法還需要這麼嚴格嗎還沒立法嘛 還在審嘛 在協商嘛通通都開放那這個道理對本國提供托育服務的人"},{"start":8093.599,"end":8106.309,"text":"這麼高強度的管制要求這麼多要受訓考證照登記審核要層層把關才能夠提供托育服務但是外籍幫傭連語言溝通都有問題沒有相關訓練資格訓練然後本國人資格門檻被檢查被高度要求外籍幫傭通通都不用這個這樣子的"},{"start":8117.719,"end":8122.761,"text":"這樣子我從來沒有聽過說本籍的比外籍的還更嚴格的同時大家在說外籍比本籍管得更嚴格我們現在回到本籍的管得嚴外籍的管得寬這沒有違反兒童最佳利益嗎還要重研立法嗎"},{"start":8142.882,"end":8147.308,"text":"對不對光是顧小孩是這樣子那再來講說這個在這種狀況裡面性別平等"},{"start":8155.116,"end":8180.525,"text":"你們在講我剛剛講說事實上我們台灣整體社會包括政府把公共照顧服務往前推這麼多已經推這麼多了我們也希望透過公共政策繼續解決家務勞動還有育兒性別不平等的問題那政府也當時一路走來都被迫但也始終是站在往前推進的立場"},{"start":8182.105,"end":8196.255,"text":"結果現在你開放了這種外籍幫傭你不願意再繼續改善你的公共政策然後面對資源的制度人力多方面缺失的問題你用這種病急亂投醫的態度"},{"start":8198.015,"end":8212.544,"text":"委員公共托育或者是托育的政策我們還是大力的正在做你現在選擇一個最便宜的最階級化的最可能產生剝削的然後最不願意致力於改善公共照顧服務品質配出它的包括公共托育的部分這都是"},{"start":8218.467,"end":8237.593,"text":"一直在做甚至更大力的那我問你那我們一直在你也說我們在做那個長照啊然後你一直開放這個外籍看護啊有外籍看護我還需要去使用你的長照嗎我還在乎你的長照嗎我有家庭幫傭顧小孩我還需要你的公共托育嗎"},{"start":8240.647,"end":8259.036,"text":"我們訪談到很多他表達需要外籍幫助他一樣會把小孩送托我現在跟你講就是說他一樣會把小孩送托當政府選擇一種最階級化最可能產生剝削的做法而對於不願致力於改善公共你現在這樣是有多少買得起的人才能夠這樣子呢買不起的人呢"},{"start":8264.278,"end":8276.941,"text":"所以我們講公共照顧要服務的其實正是那個買不起的所以公共照顧他的品質要普及化他的價格要可敬性為什麼要可敬性"},{"start":8278.186,"end":8299.659,"text":"他的服務的可敬性是大家都知道因為因為一般人沒有辦法有那種能力嘛而你現在這個開放家庭幫兇也不是一般人有辦法的啦這是在鞏固有錢人才能享有的育兒喘息的特權如果在這裡我們不要講特權抱歉我更正我講錯了這是"},{"start":8302.015,"end":8324.485,"text":"鞏固就是說有錢才買得起的走回頭路有錢的自己買工沒錢的自求多福這是家庭自行買單那我們是想一直以來都把國家把政府拉進來來減少女性的家務的負擔為什麼不是在制度面上設計說你應該有一個設計男性共同來參與家務然後或者是說對盤點0到12歲"},{"start":8330.467,"end":8346.296,"text":"各公共托育客戶照顧資源減少資源落差改進這個服務品質或是我們一直在講說把育嬰假變成這個家庭那個照顧變成照顧假然後開放到8歲然後一小時你們有了但你們現在只到3歲嘛"},{"start":8347.356,"end":8364.424,"text":"我們這部分在研議要擴大那也是讓更多的男性其實已經投入了這部分的做法跟政策我們一直在有錢推進那甚至是推出完善的有薪家庭照顧假現在來了現在就你們第一個不願意重新分配第二個政府的資源不願意再投入所以你現在選一個最簡單的有錢開放有錢的可以買社會的反彈壓力小"},{"start":8369.566,"end":8392.475,"text":"政府的資源你也不願意投入啊然後呢人家需求就會下降如果開放二十幾萬人可以請家庭這個搬佣他可能對於育兒的這個辛苦或是家務的辛苦他就分擔了那反彈的聲音就降低了要求公共政策提供的聲浪也會下降所以在這裡是"},{"start":8393.815,"end":8415.315,"text":"你們直接開放讓高收入的家庭直接向全球南方國家購買廉價的勞動力啦所以這個照顧私有化的手段來規避照顧資源分配不均導致的社會不平等 這個就是 這個是團體認為的啦所謂的不負責任啦 不負責任啦"},{"start":8416.465,"end":8433.991,"text":"真的是不負責任 連在友善職場的部分包括製度的部分我們現在也在擴大正在研議以日傾的育嬰留庭需要往前再推進包括資源的投入也更多包括托育的資源包括企業托育的部分我們也都是更大力在做這部分不會改變而且只會做的更多這個方向不會改變的開放到8歲1小時計算我不是跟你講我們這個"},{"start":8444.127,"end":8463.784,"text":"育嬰留庭合併計算進來我們目前就是希望能夠朝三歲的部分我們就希望現在正在研議朝擴大的方向在研議這事情我已經在幾個幾週前其實我也跟大家報告過了目前就是往這個方向在研議中那這個要修法"},{"start":8466.507,"end":8483.81,"text":"我現在就告訴你你們在這種狀況裡面一直研議你們所有東西都是研議包括我剛剛講的衝擊你們也是研議你還沒上任以前也是在研議然後現在什麼研議這麼多年通通都沒有你現在在告訴我們說我們會繼續研議我們朝向更大幅的開放沒有啊你們現在的我剛剛講的這個包括已日請的這個這個照顧我們要一小時啊"},{"start":8494.332,"end":8503.098,"text":"整個總體時數沒有變 天數沒有變價格也沒有增加預算那就讓你開放成幾個小時 你都不願意了"},{"start":8504.11,"end":8531.359,"text":"我認真不是不認真我們是一步一步再往前做對嘛所以我們會把它擴大讓這個照顧的友善程度可以大幅改善的你們是牛步話然後讓家庭自己有錢家庭自己去買工沒錢的自求多福的馬上開放我們沒有牛步話目前一日請的部分才上路兩個月我們就一直在研議把它擴大了"},{"start":8532.299,"end":8535.042,"text":"我們呼籲了幾年啦第一個年紀要到幾歲因為很多職場的滑坡勞動力滑坡就是經常經常小孩不是只有讓他長大讓他吃飯讓他讀書要陪伴或是生病了要到學校去有薪家庭照顧假你給不了"},{"start":8554.061,"end":8582.037,"text":"你們雇主也不願意負擔政府不可能編列這個預算那我們就把這個育嬰留庭的價格整個偏數都沒有動讓他友善到可以8歲然後以小時為計你們通通在講我們繼續研議你們說你們開放到天了這不是繼續研議王維生在那裡啦他知道這樣一路走來已經很多年了很多年了不叫牛布化那叫什麼"},{"start":8583.798,"end":8594.724,"text":"目前上路才兩三個月 那是我們推動很多年以後你才正式回應我們的第一次回應在你上路以前我們推動很多年啊所以我們接下來 政府是被推動的 不是政府主動的"},{"start":8604.312,"end":8619.147,"text":"希望能夠讓這個政策的擴大跟彈性都能夠再往前進這個我們非常非常認真的看待這個數據我們很務實的跟你講會提升婦女勞動參與率然後很務實跟你講不增加雇主的支出總時數沒有變彈性化"},{"start":8622.557,"end":8628.158,"text":"我就不曉得你們就是在還試辦的時候你還沒上任試辦的時候黃偉生還找那個輪班三班制的去試辦還失敗因為三班制一個蘿蔔一個坑當然失敗那是因為你上任我承認因為你上任所以你push他要先試辦再試辦一次友善的直接上路現在不是試辦現在已經正式上路那現在是以天為計"},{"start":8647.802,"end":8669.493,"text":"是 已經正式上路了 而且成效很不錯那我們 當然喔 有需求喔那我們跟你講 更友善 年齡要擴散 擴大然後呢 時數就是以小時為基我們有往這擴大的方向 目前正在規劃跟研議這個東西只是一小小步 還用自己的育嬰流挺的價和天數"},{"start":8671.147,"end":8696.072,"text":"那個只是我們勞工自己的天數你現在這一個你就在拿我們勞工裡面的來給我邀功不需要只是希望你們彈性化但我們希望的是政府應該做的是更多而更多並不是你台放外籍幫傭那個是有錢人才買得起的"},{"start":8698.24,"end":8705.501,"text":"那個是家庭自己買工沒有買不起的人買不起的人這個政策有什麼可敬性"},{"start":8706.781,"end":8734.92,"text":"買不起的人 這個政策與我有何干啊文稅不同的對象其實就像來你看 你看這個 我跟你講這個對誰最有利喔仲介業 來馬上我的朋友就LINE來了我的朋友馬上就LINE來了仲介第一時間開放宣誓政策的時候仲介打電話來來你看這個放大這個怎麼沒有喔 最後一個啦我今天接到電話咧家裡有12歲小孩可以請家庭家事照顧外勞"},{"start":8738.413,"end":8762.918,"text":"馬上仲介一一打電話給有12歲以下的家庭的父母很多人接到很多人接到仲介等著要接所以我們第一時間就回覆他沒有人要照顧老人了沒有人要照顧老人了怎麼辦仲度失能的老人怎麼辦大家都想我要家庭幫傭了"},{"start":8765.033,"end":8775.58,"text":"那外籍義工不願意照顧老人 怎麼辦這不是你的業務 這衛福部的業務這個沒關係 炒價也不是你們承擔是那個家裡面的僱主要承擔所以現在是國家怎樣 雙手一攤有錢的去衛衛 用這個就好了好 謝謝好 謝謝淑芬委員跟政宣告待會那個廖偉祥委員質詢完畢後我們休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":8802.894,"end":8824.033,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛這個淑芬委員其實她在探討這個議題我覺得的確是一個值得你可以在另外排個時間好好的演繹我想這個今天難得有兩個這麼大的部會的部長都來我相信很多人想問的事情很多所以這個建議主席你可以之後再排一天那我想要先請衛福部時部長來有請時部長"},{"start":8830.706,"end":8857.817,"text":"廖委員好部長好今天講這個長照其實是蠻重要因為我國已經進入高齡化社會所以我這個長照體系常常面臨人力增長幅度追不上需求的狀況這跟昨天這跟昨天很多相關的這個醫事人員或是這個需求都有相關性那我想問一下這個幾副標準有關於長照這個實務上面臨幾副標準是有多久沒有調整了"},{"start":8861.243,"end":8884.633,"text":"這個應該是每年都是在做一些新增沒有 相關的工會跟我說從上路過來到現在其實已經有九年沒有完全的沒有全方面的去調整過應該是說應該是這樣講就是跟這個健保是一樣啦就是有提案的時候那我們就調整那不然的話它是隨著那個"},{"start":8887.27,"end":8897.607,"text":"部長我跟你說其實有很多這個居服人員居服聯盟策略聯盟相關的工會其實都有反應長年沒有調整了那這幾年物價漲了多少"},{"start":8898.735,"end":8918.205,"text":"也漲了很多喔那這個部分是不是可以儘速去全面的檢討和調整服務給付的價格而且他們希望因為沒有定期的去檢討這個機制常常導致他們反映了你們也沒有沒有想要調整或是認真的去研究要怎麼調整"},{"start":8918.985,"end":8946.699,"text":"所以這個部分我要把這個意見民間的意見帶給你因為這個需求變得越來越多但是人員的待遇也是一樣並沒有獲得提升對這個可以理解因為這個我們在這個健保方面它是有一個總額的成長率那成長率裡面會去考慮到CPI去調整它每年的幅度那但是這個長照的給付呢它是用"},{"start":8947.96,"end":8964.731,"text":"這個時值時付1.1塊錢的方式在操作那所以如果這個CPI我們可以考慮說如果你這個CPI的變動達到多少或者是定期多久來做一個檢討對 我覺得定期這件事情是要做的好不好部長可不可以答應本席"},{"start":8965.432,"end":8978.753,"text":"趕快去研議跟相關的工會我請那個創造師來討論這個就是我本席的具體要求很明顯啦在這個簡報上第一個就是我要爭取這個看是不是依物價指數你每兩年檢討一次和調整"},{"start":8979.741,"end":9002.726,"text":"然後第二個是希望也趕快去建立所謂的造福員的分級跟進修的機制這個部分我也希望可以鼓勵新人也可以讓資深造福員願意久任所以部長這兩個意見我要代表造福或是長照相關的作業人員來跟你爭取好不好您可不可以回去研議"},{"start":9003.226,"end":9024.797,"text":"好 這個我們演繹一下你可不可以給我一個月之內給我明確的答覆你們的時間表是什麼好 我們來演繹一下看看這個如何來融入到隨著這個物價的檢討機制部長 那你可不可以給我一個時間表好不好 你可不可以給我一個時間表好不好就是說你這個演繹的時間表是什麼這兩個具體的需求"},{"start":9030.643,"end":9057.271,"text":"好 那就一個月一個月內給本席因為我還會再找這些相關的工會來討論好不好好那再來因為這個長照我也是進入細節來問部長在過去幾年其實全台的居扶機構的違規採取 查核不足甚至有很多系統資訊串聯不足的問題甚至有導致一些弊案的產生譬如說長照基金可能被詐領等等的我想要問一下"},{"start":9058.771,"end":9084.424,"text":"這個你們的監察院之前有要求你們做建全國財閥統一平台你們建了嗎這個平台已經有了在這個今年會去完成系統的開發啦大概在年底之前就可以了你們現在已經有了嘛對不對監察院去年的九月有說過你們要去做這個平台所以你說已經有了是不是我請那個市長說明一下"},{"start":9084.984,"end":9113.106,"text":"跟委員報告因為監察院去年有下這樣的一個意見那我們去年的那個新增的經費排不進去所以我們是在今年今年的新的案件裡面有把它放進去那整個按照期程的規劃在今年年底之前可以完成年底你確定嗎你要真的要到年底你先看一下其實你們現在就有所謂的裁罰平台了現在這個裁罰平台是連結地方政府而且是依法"},{"start":9113.946,"end":9142.633,"text":"依法要公開的好依法要公開是不是好我再進來給你看這是你們有的所以我們進來看一下幾個亂象你看看你光台北市政府你就設定了兩個連結然後台東的點進去就只是他們的新聞資訊頁根本也不是財閥網頁然後我們再看一下高雄的高雄市政府的點進去只有五筆資料然後這五筆資料有三筆它是違反食安法的違反食品廣告"},{"start":9144.138,"end":9159.918,"text":"違規的還有時評宣傳廣告不實的那至今跟長照有關的裁罰公告案件也只有兩件喔所以請問一下你們在做什麼東西這個這個資訊平台請問食安也是你們的這個平台的公佈範圍嗎"},{"start":9160.919,"end":9180.598,"text":"那個可能連結有跑掉那跟委員報告當時我們希望就是因為案件會不斷的出來所以我們期待的是我們連結到地方的裁罰的一個專區那直接都是那你沒有去督導你好像是沒有督導我我隨便點了好幾個都是亂七八糟的根本就沒有根本就沒有所謂"},{"start":9181.579,"end":9200.53,"text":"真的需要的資訊在裡面是 有跟委員報告因為昨天我們其實是試著上我們的專區那我們這邊非常完整的其實都是長照的那總共有67案沒有 我剛剛才進了你們的我們剛才進了你的網站點進去就是現在這個樣子好 那我們會回去馬上這個已經是能力的問題了這個資訊的整理有很大的問題好 我們改善"},{"start":9206.673,"end":9231.785,"text":"對部長你知道這個問題嗎我想這個大概是過度性質的因為真正的會在年底之前完成那個那個才是真正完整的部長這是理由部長這是理由我跟你講這個東西你們要負督導責任你不是丟給地方政府他隨便舔然後你好像都不關你的事大家是依賴你中央政府的網頁看資訊的"},{"start":9233.806,"end":9255.627,"text":"好所以我要跟你分享有兩個縣市一個是台中市一個是嘉義縣的社會局喔其實他們在公告的表格格式上面至少也做得很好一個是台中一個是嘉義縣他們違反了什麼法令違規者是誰他一看就知道那你們是不是應該要給各個縣市政府一個統一的表格統一的格式呢"},{"start":9259.463,"end":9273.309,"text":"這個跟委員說明我們未來在開發這個系統的時候就會讓它比較有標準式的現在這個只是急救章先讓它有連結的方式部長過渡企業應該也有所作為那我問你你建構系統要多少錢"},{"start":9275.701,"end":9295.721,"text":"這個是配搭我們的系統因為這個整個是我們的照管系統所以這個只是裡面的一項資料好部長我跟你講坦白講現在各縣市裁罰跟公告的案件數真的也沒有到那麼多我們有去查很多縣市甚至是一件都沒有那也根據你們回傳給我的資料過去五年加總起來是78件"},{"start":9297.162,"end":9317.165,"text":"要公開的可能還更少所以到底有沒有認真在追蹤我先不問的情況之下在這麼少的資料的情況之下你這個過渡期應該一張表格就可以搞定了還需要去外包什麼資訊工程嗎那當然你說你要整合其他的功能OK但是你這個過渡的部分你應該這樣處理就可以了不是嗎"},{"start":9318.014,"end":9345.498,"text":"跟委員說明一下大概這中間有一些資訊上的落差這78件只是在申報這個長照的幾戶上的虛符報案件而已那當然還有一些長照機構的一些違法的樣態那個都是在地方去裁罰所以長照師會再去彙整其他的這個違法樣態把它彙整起來這78件只是指的是在虛符報的案件而已"},{"start":9345.638,"end":9366.233,"text":"是啊,但是你整個加起來會有多少?你這個同意表格應該就是做得出來了。這個可能要大家了解一下才知道。我未來是希望他查的時候是比較能夠一次性的,現在都是用連結的方式。對,所以你很亂,然後再來就是每個,你們沒有去督導。那所以我要再詢問一下,在這些裁罰裡面,其實連一件主動公告詐領案件的資訊都沒有。"},{"start":9367.985,"end":9391.225,"text":"這個是很嚴重了吧 這個應該要公告了吧就根據你們提供給我的資料喔屏東縣裁罰的案件近四年有十七 二 二 七件就是十七件 兩件 兩件 七件那你知道你們的裁罰網頁裡面屏東的部分怎麼寫的嗎你們知道嗎 你有去看嗎 你沒讀到對不對屏東寫的是零件喔 屏東的地方政府給你的是零件"},{"start":9392.165,"end":9415.433,"text":"那甚至在台南的這個乍領五千四百萬的廠商呢民眾也不知道到底是哪一間所以我想要說的事情是這個公告標準在民眾的認知裡就是有問題的那你們內部有資訊流通的機制嗎或者是如果你在台南這個乍領了五千四百萬的這個外部廠商如果還或者是高雄的這個長照機構AB表"},{"start":9417.434,"end":9438.127,"text":"領的這些社會的詐領案在你們的平台上是完全沒有公告的而且站在民眾的立場今天不管詐領登錄不實或各種這些重大爭議其實只要未達公告門檻那其實你們而且你們資訊也沒有真的落實登錄上去其實民眾要怎麼辨別這個風險他怎麼有安心的說讓自己家中的長輩去接受這個服務的單位有沒有違規的紀錄而且甚至你現在的這個狀況就跟昨天我們討論的有點像"},{"start":9445.231,"end":9462.952,"text":"一家機構 特約單位他如果這個長照人員在A縣市被查到有虛報有這些問題 相關問題的時候B縣市是不能夠馬上查到的所以你就可能導致後面的事情發生所以我剛剛說的事情是你現在說年底要建好這個系統其實"},{"start":9464.625,"end":9478.361,"text":"你們這個是推託因為你在這個過程中你這一年發生了任何事情你們可以負責嗎所以這一年你其實剛剛我像我說的你就是告訴地方政府你的表格要哪些內容回報回來的時候你要有人去審查"},{"start":9479.847,"end":9486.453,"text":"是不是可以做到至少你短期可以做到這件事情跟委員說明先跟委員釐清幾個觀念我們長福法裡面母法有授權裁罰的樣態才可以在我們現在要求他公開讓民眾可以查這我知道這個是前提但是我剛剛已經講到很多"},{"start":9499.304,"end":9502.986,"text":"那您舉的這個屏東的那個樣態他並不在我們的財閥的這個長福法授權可以去公開這樣的一個單位所以剛剛委員關心到說有一些這個業者我只是舉幾個例子給你聽但是我剛剛已經把你按進去這些連結看過了所以你現在是要用這個理由來說所以你們的平台做的"},{"start":9520.536,"end":9541.364,"text":"我們沒有說我們只是說現階段因為裁罰是地方的權責所以我們其實是希望裁罰是地方的權責但是資訊透明是你的責任你的得到責任也是需要及時的如果地方政府都要透過送到中央中央再來公佈的話事實上會有時效的問題你還是沒有回答我的問題我剛剛說你給他們統一的表單格式然後他們報回來你要去督導"},{"start":9548.227,"end":9561.553,"text":"這樣子你聽得懂我的意思嗎因為我感覺你一直在找很多理由喔是是我理解委員的意思就是你委員希望我們能夠做得更精準能夠更完善那你說讓他們回報問題是好你說你依法讓他們回報結果他回來給你一個連結難道你都不用查嗎難道你都不用去看他連結到底合不合理嗎那每一個縣市回來的表的不同然後資訊還有這種違反食品安全的違反食安法那是你要的資訊嗎當然不是都不是對不對那你跟我扯這個對嗎"},{"start":9577.08,"end":9599.125,"text":"其實一剛開始連結都是正確的那我相信是地方政府可能又有一些異動然後沒有讓我們知道所以早自這個連結發生現在委員看到的這種樣態那我們會來改善好部長所以我要表達的事情是其實長照需求越來越高那今年的預算也高達了1100多億但是現在發生的就是管理漏洞也會越來越多"},{"start":9600.407,"end":9619.419,"text":"因為根本預算你根本在執行量當然就是需求很大所以你在這個人力資源管理上面甚至是你連這個管理這樣子資訊的表格都出了問題有人去造假就能夠領錢變成名副其實的Excel Pay他就可以隨便上網中央跟你申請然後到地方再另外拿錢炸領了五千多萬"},{"start":9620.913,"end":9633.312,"text":"這個我相信大多數在這個長照領域服務的人都是本於愛心本於熱情而且都是兢兢業業在做這些事情但是你現在管理不當就是讓不孝業者有機會去鑽漏洞"},{"start":9636.744,"end":9653.042,"text":"請部長在年底出來前你現在馬上請你們去做這件事情把這個資訊的漏洞都把它補起來然後也要讓跨縣市的整合垂直整合都要可以清除資訊透明可不可以這個資訊的揭露的部分我們來這個檢討改善"},{"start":9655.956,"end":9672.134,"text":"所以我第一個要你給我就是具體的承諾一個是一個月內可以上線可搜尋的全國裁法查詢功能的完善的這個資訊然後要有一個檢討的配套機制也就是說它上線的時候是不是你在資訊平台上就要有一個log說有更新的資料"},{"start":9672.634,"end":9690.167,"text":"所以你就要去核對他給的資料對不對這個在資訊上很簡單它不是一件很難的事第二個是你三個月內要趕快建立這個跨縣市的裁罰預警的通報機制跨縣市裁罰的時候你應該讓地方政府彼此知道不要A縣市罰了B縣市不知道"},{"start":9691.388,"end":9708.393,"text":"第三個是你們在這個本會期前也可以提出你這個所謂長照集合人力的補足方案因為剛剛所謂的很多問題是集合的問題對不對有人可能通報了你們沒有辦法集合沒有足夠人力集合所以導致有這樣的漏洞所以這個部分希望"},{"start":9709.702,"end":9730.319,"text":"包含昨天我講的兒少的質詢你們CRC的採訪平台這些資訊其實是同一件事這顯示衛福部在資訊管理治理上面的能力是有待加強我們不要講得太難聽你們資訊治理能力真的要加強好不好好最後我還是要邀請一下我們的這個請石部長回座我要請一下洪森漢部長"},{"start":9739.795,"end":9744.788,"text":"六人好部長好部長這個最後我還是要請教一下部長其實針對現在重啟核能成為討論的議題話題"},{"start":9749.676,"end":9776.504,"text":"好議題熱點那有不少的學者投書投書指出因為非核家園是民進黨一貫的方向那核能的人才伴隨現在AI產業興起然後能源重新這個檢討那世界爭搶也造成了台灣核能的相關專業人才出走或者轉行現在要重新培育迫切急需加速喔甚至投書也提出勞動部應該建立"},{"start":9778.625,"end":9798.346,"text":"這個核能級的特殊技術人才培訓專案所以這部分呢勞動部也有不可或缺的角色包含第一個是技術標準的提升譬如說現有的焊接啦配管啦非破壞檢測等國家技術式的檢定那可能需要針對所謂核能級的高規格需求"},{"start":9798.866,"end":9810.038,"text":"跟核安會合作開發更高等的培訓課程這是第一個技術標準提升第二個是人才缺口的補足面對核能人才這個斷層勞動部需要透過執訓體系加速培養機電還有儀控等基礎工程人力來才能支撐核電廠的興建或者是重啟工程"},{"start":9820.569,"end":9839.861,"text":"第三個是移工與專業外籍人才的審核勞動部負責核發外國專業人才的工作許可若需要引進國外的核能工程團隊勞動部需要配合經濟部簡化或優化相關的申請流程請問一下部長你對這個方向有做規劃或研議的打算嗎"},{"start":9840.862,"end":9870.109,"text":"根本說明關於這些相關的這個專業技能的人才當然我們都我們當然願意來跟目的世界主管機關當然看他們有沒有相關的類似的需求有沒有我們要配合協助的地方那這也不是只是在核能的部分而是綜合的這些專技的人才我們都會跟目的世界主管機關來做討論看他們有沒有這個需求因為有些人才的訓練他有他一定的體系跟他一定的這個相關的要求"},{"start":9870.509,"end":9887.106,"text":"副部長配合是被動的現在我們看到賴清德總統願意起義來歸檢討能源政策那你們除了被動配合你們勞動部有沒有主動規劃有沒有相關的時間表因為培訓人才並不是現在說要就馬上有的"},{"start":9887.746,"end":9904.626,"text":"這個培訓人才是三到五年你等到定案還來得及嗎會有一些專業的會有一些專業的會有一些專業的人才其實是會要來自目的世界主管機關提出他們的需求比方說勞動部絕對不會去培訓醫師"},{"start":9908.246,"end":9936.158,"text":"所以我剛剛提的那三件事情都跟勞動部有關喔所以委員我說的是說醫師有他這個養成的體專業養成的體系這個部分嗎那我當然可以來跟目的世界主管局官討論他們有沒有在人才需求這個人才上面他們要怎麼來去做克服這部分可以討論那所以我想這個是國家發展國家安全還有能源安全的相關重要的議題這個社會大家都很關心喔"},{"start":9936.818,"end":9955.218,"text":"所以我才會問出這樣的問題請你們回去跟相關部會去演繹去問他們有沒有需要你趕快提出這些培訓的包含技術提升標準還有包含人才缺口有沒有需要補足包含著移工跟專業外籍人才有沒有需要審核這三件事情要提醒部長"},{"start":9956.039,"end":9980.99,"text":"像這樣子的專業的特定的專業的領域的確就是要是目的社會主管評估他的需求包括他人才養成的方式那這個部分我們第一個會尊重目的社會主管機關那如果有他們有需要我們幫忙的地方我們當然願意來去做我們可以做的所以部長會願意配合他們就是培養他們提出這個相關的需求然後他們提出你就會配合我就是我剛舉例"},{"start":9982.928,"end":10003.913,"text":"醫生可能很多地方現在也覺得沒有我只是問說那如果今天經濟部會今天經濟部和河安會需要這些人才他主動跟你提你配合嗎當然我們可以一起討論一起討論那你會配合嗎我們會一起討論看需求跟彼此的分工所以意思就是說你身為勞動部長你會配合他們然後彼此分工跨部會之間本來就有很多業務需要一起討論"},{"start":10005.293,"end":10033.772,"text":"所以我是針對這個問題就是核能專業人才的部分跨部會有很多議題我們會開放性的討論謝謝部長這個主席剛剛有一點差別待遇剛剛淑芬委員講了半個多小時我想要跟你說一下說部長 紅部長社會大眾其實也很想了解當初的反核少年跟現在沒有立場願意配合行政院的勞動部長哪一位才是真正的紅身漢謝謝"},{"start":10040.776,"end":10056.626,"text":"好也麻煩我們的衛福部針對於我們剛剛講這個造福源跟薪資福利給給支付的這個議題我們也開過記者會請衛福部要盡快回覆那接下來我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":10777.836,"end":10780.826,"text":"現在繼續開會來處理臨時提案有疑案請宣讀"},{"start":10787.126,"end":10812.345,"text":"鑑於我國已邁入高齡化社會長期照顧需求持續攀升為現行制度對於勞工應長照安排之支持措施仍顯不足特別是在照顧初期制制度銜接與經濟支持方面尚有明顯缺口為強化勞工與家庭照顧責任與就業之間之平衡並降低因照顧而退出職場之風險原有推動長期長照安排假事辦計畫之必要建請勞動部衛福部"},{"start":10813.686,"end":10827.021,"text":"延禮長照安排假試辦計劃並應於指定期限內提出具體方案內容應包含適用對象申請條件給假期間薪資補貼機制及行政配套措施以利後續制度化推動"},{"start":10828.643,"end":10849.457,"text":"另為使政策設計更貼近實務需求並兼顧各方意見與提案通過後請主管機關於兩週內邀集民間團體專家學者及相關利害關係人召開事辦計劃研商會議針對適用對象薪資補貼比例企業負擔分攤方式及財務來源等重要議題進行充分討論凝聚共識"},{"start":10850.497,"end":10869.597,"text":"眾上建請主管機關積極推動本案並於規劃過程中納入多元利害關係人意見以建立兼顧勞工權益企業負擔及制度永續之長照支持制度提案委員林月琴 聯署委員王振旭 劉建國宣讀完畢好 請問本案行政單位有意見"},{"start":10875.509,"end":10895.6,"text":"那个跟赵伟报告那关于这个提案我们在这个第二段跟第三段的部分我们其实是有一些修改的意见了那我们是建议稍稍修改成建井劳动部和卫福部研拟长照安排加事办计划评估可行性那并因三个月"},{"start":10896.661,"end":10921.891,"text":"内提出评估方案内容应包括适用对象申请条件给他几件薪资补贴机制行政配套措施等以利后续制度化的推动这是第二段的部分第三段是建议我念字是令为令谓使政策设计更贴近实务需求并兼顾各方意见于提案通过后请主管机关"},{"start":10923.097,"end":10945.349,"text":"评估过程因收集民间团体专家学者及厉害相关厉害相关人然后适用对象薪资补贴比例企业负担分担方式及财务来源等重要议题意见那重这是第三段这样没有有一点修正意见可不可以请也可以请赵伟这边来确认对"},{"start":10964.175,"end":10974.48,"text":"好 那因為這提案是我提案 那就修正通過臨時提案全部處理完畢 接下來繼續詢答 請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請洪部長有請洪部長"},{"start":10998.7,"end":11016.415,"text":"本席想請教一下我們從4月13號起家中有一名未滿12歲的兒童就可以申請外籍幫佣我想請教你們這樣的一個政策會宣布這樣的一個政策你們是已經討論很久"},{"start":11019.017,"end":11042.139,"text":"那可能也許會有一些你們需要的一些配套措施嗎那有這樣的一個想法你們是討論多久然後才推出這樣的一個政策出來其實從去年去年其實就已經開始研議了那包括我們跟衛福部跟行政院其實也一直在做這些相關的研議的討論那這個會影響的家庭有多少"},{"start":11043.671,"end":11057.6,"text":"先跟委員說明第一個是以目前的這個開放的這個適用的有申請資格的是144萬戶可是並不是有申請資格就會來申請那麼你們預計會有多少人會來申請"},{"start":11063.484,"end":11082.838,"text":"第一個是其實因為的確都會涉及到這些家庭他的需求狀態也包括他的經濟負擔是也包括涉及到他家裡有沒有空間所以不是那麼容易有一個公式可以套進去說可以有一個具體的數字那你們預計你們自己應該我們認為的確因為現在幫用是2000的確會比這個數字應該會增加不少這樣子"},{"start":11087.262,"end":11103.056,"text":"那我們現在能夠做的事情是我們會先把相關的資源就是說假設會有受到比方說本國的工作者他需要我們多幫助的話這個就業的或者是擴大他勞務市場的計畫我們會跟衛福部一起先來把它準備好"},{"start":11103.396,"end":11122.421,"text":"好那部長就是之前我們也有提到就是說80歲免巴適量表那現在我們又開放這個外籍幫傭那這個會不會排擠到就是說我之前一直在提到就是說可能一些家裡面真的需要的這個重症或者是急重症的這樣的一個這個有這樣的一個"},{"start":11124.661,"end":11144.413,"text":"家庭的會不會受到排擠那部長當然我記得我是上一次有特別有問過你那這一次我們又放寬這個外籍幫傭的這個部分那我想請教就是說你們會去評估那到底這個外籍"},{"start":11145.173,"end":11164.881,"text":"移工來到台灣之後這個外籍幫傭或者是外籍看護工那他會不會去選擇他的雇主那他會選擇他比較好照顧的嗎跟文說明其實在去年這個舊法46條修正後我們其實有研議的一個六個方向的配套"},{"start":11166.081,"end":11180.097,"text":"那在8月的時候上路確實經過這半年的時間半年多的時間來看的話其實我們看到我們的配套確實是有效果的配套的目的當然就是希望能夠減少過去大家擔心的那個所謂器重則輕的這個狀況我們其實"},{"start":11182.659,"end":11203.507,"text":"因為大家會擔心這件事情所以我們透過一些方式讓重症可以優先包括是現在我們這個如果這個外籍看護他他這個要媒合的時候我們其實是14天內是優先給重症的雇主來去做登記承接你這個外籍幫傭的部分因為你有這一次有針對"},{"start":11205.087,"end":11221.073,"text":"家裡面就是特殊的這個家庭那也有做一些放寬嘛對不對那這個的話一般家庭跟比較特殊的這種部分你們會有去做區分嗎就像你說重症的可能會優先那這個的部分你們也會有這樣子一個方式"},{"start":11222.073,"end":11239.922,"text":"也會我們在比較是特殊需求跟弱勢的家庭我說弱勢的指的是他可能是單親的家庭特勤的家庭或者是有家長身障或者是他的小孩有寒病少療發展遲緩可能之類的我們把他的救安費給降低到兩千塊"},{"start":11240.922,"end":11257.415,"text":"那在我們的這個行政的審核上面我們也有專案的人員會把他提前優先來做審理那也包括在相關的這個人力假設進入到承接轉換承接的時候重症的家庭或特殊需求家庭我們其實也是讓他是優先承接的"},{"start":11257.935,"end":11282.811,"text":"好那我想請教就是說你們這個政策出來之後你們有去評估好就是說會對原本在這個職場好我們講的這個外籍放寬這個外籍幫傭那原本在做保姆或者是做家庭幫傭的本國勞工會有多大的影響你們有做這樣的一個評估嗎有跟文說明第一個是我們認為可能對於既有的托育人員"},{"start":11283.985,"end":11309.713,"text":"或者是這個家事服務的本國的人員其實如果我們都沒有任何配套可能的確會對他們可能服務的時數會有一點影響可能會有一點影響所以這是為什麼我們其實才要你一個配套然後包括我們也編列會編列資源來去協助他們擴大他們現在勞務市場包括我們會設我們會有規劃跟一個跟他們的這個媒合的平台"},{"start":11310.433,"end":11325.987,"text":"那衛福部現在應該就有這個托育員員的媒合的平台他們應該會擴大的來進行可是現在的媒合平台不是就直接交給仲介去處理嗎目前我們如果要聘僱外籍現在我指的是本國給本國的工作者的部分"},{"start":11326.707,"end":11351.93,"text":"这是给本国工作者的部分他们其实会有媒合的平台他们也会扩大那劳动部这边我们也会对本国的家事的服务员的部分其实我们也会设计这个媒合的平台有一个服务的专区让他们目的是让他们扩大他们可以服务的劳务市场是好我们也希望就是说当然我相信你们就是说你们这个政策推动出来是要补我们的这个"},{"start":11353.238,"end":11377.784,"text":"勞力不足的部分是這樣子嗎你們有去做評估嗎其實跟原本你這樣的一個政策你應該是要就是補這個我們原本的可能本勞他對於這個家事這個可能不想去參與這樣或者是從事這樣的一個家事的一個工作那是要去補充我們勞力不足的這個部分那你們確實是有去評估過有"},{"start":11379.364,"end":11400.636,"text":"我跟委員說明其實我們跟很多他其實潛在可能有需要的家庭我們其實也跟他做訪談我自己親自也訪談那的確我舉個例子比方說夜間夜間是比較不容易找到本國的工作者來協助的那也有很多他其實雙薪家庭的老公"},{"start":11401.536,"end":11422.638,"text":"他跟我們反映說他其實晚上有這樣的需求比方說他可能晚上他有跟我們表達說他希望能夠有他自己想要進修或者是他有夜班或者是他其實晚上會有兼差的接案他其實晚上也有這樣的需求可是晚上的部分夜間的部分就是很難找到本國的工作者來去協助他"},{"start":11423.478,"end":11438.802,"text":"那也會有一些剛才講到特進的家庭他的需求是特別高的所以他也會特別需要希望有人可以來幫他做家務上面的分擔的部分所以我們其實在這幾個月裡面就是針對這需求的部分進行相對應的這些評估"},{"start":11441.283,"end":11467.712,"text":"我們一方面也不希望就是說因為我們有放寬這個外籍幫傭的這個條件之後然後去衝擊到本國勞工的這個工作機會那另外一方面就是說又是另外一個層次的就是說原本這個勞動市場會不會因為我們有這樣子的一個外籍幫傭那剛剛部長有特別提到就是說也會讓這個本籍的"},{"start":11468.332,"end":11484.664,"text":"本級的我們的勞工好的這個市場能夠再更加的一個擴大更多的機會好那我想請教就是說我們放寬這個外籍幫傭然後來到台灣那剛剛部長有特別提到就是說讓本"},{"start":11485.504,"end":11503.404,"text":"本國的勞工的這個工作機會能夠比較大原本他可能從事這樣的一個工作的這個工作機會更大那我想請教就是原本如果這個你們有其中有一項就是說你們有相關的配套那其中有一項就是確保家務工作品質"},{"start":11505.187,"end":11531.901,"text":"那你們有說這個基本就是要這個幫庸那就培訓或者是育兒指導員到宅指導服務技巧好這是其中的一項配套嗎是好但是比較是基本的對對那我想請教就是說這個主責單位到底是是地方政府或者是衛福部這邊是衛福部那你們可以做到這麼吸到到宅沒錯"},{"start":11532.661,"end":11554.606,"text":"我跟委員報告啦因為我們少子女化我們現在知道現在很多新手爸媽他們現在目前其實很需要有一些倒載的指導這個我們是學日本我跟委員報告他的倒載指導主要是就是說他從孕婦產期第三期第四期就開始進入做一些相關諮商到時候你要做嫁來你要做嫁來其實是說你孩子你現在已經在做了還是阿伯未來我們現在開始"},{"start":11561.047,"end":11590.61,"text":"現在開始 那個經費就是我們從社安網的那個經費來處理那一般的民眾他要怎麼申請他現在就是說你要申請那個各項預約津貼的時候我們就請說問啊問說政府現在有提供這個服務我們現在是委託各地方政府所以你也是4月13號以後才會去推動這個我們現在目前應該現在就已經開始了嘛對不對 到來之後那只是說對象會擴大因為他現在比較是弱勢的有一些"},{"start":11591.37,"end":11619.792,"text":"若是個案的需求我們現在是倒載指導的部分在市安網那未來的話我想我們在少子女化對策裡頭會擴大到一般的家庭也跟委員報告我們現在目前就是說我們也希望就是說保姆因為他都有年輕的這個經驗現在來做這個育兒指導員非常非常好所以說我們這個保姆的行業勞動部兩邊我們密切密切配合讓我們的這一個我們的保姆他可以有更多元的一個整個就業選擇"},{"start":11620.472,"end":11640.021,"text":"好我我希望就是說不要因為放寬外籍這個這個幫傭然後衝擊到本國勞工的這個工作機會這是我們絕對放在很優先的事情所以我們不管不只是計劃包括相關的經費是那我們都會盡量的來去做協助是"},{"start":11640.481,"end":11666.197,"text":"好那另外就是說部長以前我們都在講說0到6歲國家一起養嘛就是孩子那這樣的一個政策的一個轉變就是可能這個國家政策子女是國家要跟我們這個我們人民一起來努力一起來協助的啦那這樣子的話我們現在就是說放寬這個外籍幫傭好像就是說把這個育兒的這個部分就是"},{"start":11667.898,"end":11688.901,"text":"轉到私領域就是說好像就是把這個責任轉嫁到就是自己去處理這種感覺就是說整個政策是不是有點轉彎不是我們並沒有轉彎我想衛福部也很清楚這個我們的包括我們整體的這個托育的資源"},{"start":11689.341,"end":11703.89,"text":"包括其實就像我們也在推動這個職場的彈性化其實都是希望更大程度的用政府的制度去支持這些可能需要育兒或有家務需求的這個家庭那"},{"start":11704.73,"end":11725.428,"text":"以勞動部來說我們其實也是在幾個幾週前三週前我們其實也是強化一個企業托育的政策把它提出來就是希望鼓勵更多的企業投入到托育設施裡面去投資到托育設施企業投入到托育設施政府就大力的來支持企業所以這都是在擴大我們整體的托育資源"},{"start":11726.229,"end":11742.325,"text":"公共托育資源的部分我想這部分我們不會鬆手而且包括衛福部包括整個行政院我們都還這還是非常非常重要的方向的對沒有改變好那我們希望就是說今天最主要我是希望就是說我們放寬這樣的一個政策之後"},{"start":11743.566,"end":11765.968,"text":"絕對不可以去衝擊到我們本國勞工的一個工作機會不論是保姆也好或者是家事家庭幫傭本勞的一個家庭幫傭我覺得不要去衝擊到這樣因為確實你外籍幫傭他的薪資當然是比本國勞工的薪資還低也許他就會轉到"},{"start":11768.069,"end":11796.034,"text":"有资格他可能就会请这个外籍帮佣这个我觉得一般的常情应该都是这样子然后我要请一个较熟的也不一定其实我们其实问下来也不一定因为其实因为我们做了一些访谈其实他们蛮多跟我们说其实他有这个家务帮佣的需求可是他还是会把小孩送托因为现在托育中心跟托育机构它的功能其实很多包括对小孩的早期的发展"},{"start":11796.614,"end":11810.809,"text":"包括其實對於一些安全的保護健康的部分其實這都是現在很多推特的功能這都不一定都是能夠這個交房佣可以幫得上的事情所以他們都說他即便需要"},{"start":11811.55,"end":11838.493,"text":"外籍保養 可是他還是會把他送托蠻多都跟我們表達那當然就是說這個我們也要持續去評估啦這個會不會造成什麼樣的影響我希望就是衛福部跟勞動部這邊都要去持續的去評估然後去看到底是不是真的會對於整個就業市場會有一些影響當然 我們會一直隨時觀察然後我們我想我們接下來的工作就是把配套跟支持的方案給做足好 謝謝"},{"start":11841.139,"end":11844.444,"text":"好 謝謝黃秀芳委員發言 接下來請圖全吉委員發言好 謝謝主席 那請我們衛福部我們次長來 請李次"},{"start":11860.009,"end":11875.615,"text":"好 次長那我們來討論一下我們針對現在因為我們國內少子女化的問題那我們看得到我們112年跟113年我們的人口出生率新生兒 112年 113年還有13萬多"},{"start":11879.597,"end":11902.23,"text":"那我們到114年喔只剩10萬7千多那等於說整整就下降了2萬多個新生兒那針對這一部分我看我們是不是有針對這一部分是不是我們有提出少子女化對策計畫2.0好像有有編列的7.99億的預算對不對針對我們少子女化"},{"start":11906.955,"end":11920.724,"text":"國民年金這一部分我說針對國民年金這一部分國民年金保險生育補助生育補助那邊沒錯啦就是我們國民年金保險針對生育補助這部分編了7.99億"},{"start":11924.926,"end":11938.157,"text":"那我們看一下其實我們針對生育補助我們有勞保有生育補助然後軍公教人員也有生育補助那扣除這些的部分就是我們國民年金保險的生育給付"},{"start":11940.799,"end":11956.585,"text":"然後經過我們也看了一下那我們7.99億我們現在針對這一部分我們從今年1月1號開始針對受理民眾我們生育給附加生育補助我們要給他合計補助10萬對沒錯合計補助10萬這我們鼓勵鼓勵大家來"},{"start":11961.267,"end":11966.27,"text":"對 就是可以申請到10萬所以我們7.99億如果申請到10萬那算起來就是7,990人可以申請這個補助國保這邊對 國民保險的部分對 沒錯那針對我們剛剛"},{"start":11977.057,"end":11994.952,"text":"有講到我們各種生意補助其實我們看了一下這幾年我們整個平均值我們全國出生的人數跟我們國民年金申請補助的人數算起來每年大概申請補助大概都是10%大概從112年 113年 104年"},{"start":11999.395,"end":12024.046,"text":"都是9.79% 10.02% 10.38%所以大概平均值大概就是一成嘛10%那如果照我們衛福部這樣子估計那你7.99億領國民年金保險7,990人那占全國新生兒出生數的一成那所以你預估我們115年新生兒大概就是"},{"start":12024.666,"end":12044.149,"text":"差不多七萬九千九百九十人大概八萬如果以這樣子預算估計的話如果整個平均值我們占一成來講我們去回推所以我們照這樣來講衛福部數預估今年一百一十五年大概新生兒從你預算編列大概是預估就是八萬人"},{"start":12046.38,"end":12061.494,"text":"如果從預算的評估來講不是 包委員因為現在就像委員剛剛講的會來領的有軍公教啊也有這一個也有這一個勞保你現在用的是那個國保教育推估我是說因為連續這幾年的平均值我剛剛有講連續這幾年的平均值"},{"start":12065.217,"end":12089.629,"text":"扣掉勞保軍公教保險的領國民年金保險的這幾年平均值差不多都是10%有9點多有10點多所以大概就是一成所以如果說看我們衛福部預估來講我覺得看起來好像衛福部對今年新生的人數大概就是8萬所以看起來是不樂觀包委員這個我們當然會繼續來努力當然我們繼續來"},{"start":12094.008,"end":12103.699,"text":"來努力啦因為這個基本上人口學裡面也告訴我們了這個基本上出生基本上也跟生育步調有關啦生育步調就tempo就是說你在4040的這個16到45歲你在什麼時候生他有時候"},{"start":12109.105,"end":12113.347,"text":"如果說以我們預算的編列因為我們預算編列一定是推估今年大概新生兒你才會去推這個預算嘛你要編預算一定有一些依據一定有一些數據去考量"},{"start":12125.573,"end":12143.658,"text":"所以你大概就是像我剛剛講如果說以這麼多年的數據我們以領國民年金保險大概就是一成所以我們就是預估今年就是8萬人所以我們領國民年金抓一成來講就是8000人8000人再乘以10萬大概就是8億嘛所以你們編7.99億我們依這樣來預估所以照這樣來講衛福部"},{"start":12149.208,"end":12164.209,"text":"預估今年新生兒應該有可能就是8萬左右所以以我們預算的編列的精神來講我不知道委員那個通常人口學在推估的時候不是用這種方式人口學通常是用算那個育齡婦女對 她的那個數目然後她的cohort"},{"start":12164.89,"end":12167.293,"text":"所以如果說每個來領10萬其實我們就只能提供79900人去領因為你只有編7.99億所以你只要到超過8萬人我們預算就是領完了所以我們預估大概就是這樣子"},{"start":12181.343,"end":12201.423,"text":"好 那當然我們當然也是希望能夠有所提升啦只是我看衛福部針對這部分的預算我們照這樣子幾年的評估看起來感覺衛福部評估大概就是八萬感覺並不是很樂觀啦那這部分我也想問一下我們我請一下勞動部我們洪部長好不好"},{"start":12211.215,"end":12237.574,"text":"所以當然我剛剛有跟我們次長討論那依這個預算編列我是覺得衛福部大概是朝這個方向的方向大概去看去走那我看一下我們勞動部我們預估115年新生兒像勞動部就比較樂觀預估還有十萬一千五百人那我們勞動部是針對哪一部分去做這個評估這個預算"},{"start":12241.345,"end":12259.91,"text":"根本說明因為去年的出生數應該是十萬七千我記得是十萬七千所以我們基本上當然因為這個出生數的推估這個我們其實應該是跟包括跟衛福部跟國發會這邊來去做一些相關的討論"},{"start":12263.994,"end":12283.174,"text":"對 因為針對這部分我們是發現這個問題所以我覺得我們衛福部跟勞動部我們跨部會應該針對這一部分這些數據其實在編列預算的時候應該還是要做一些參考要有一些數據要有一些依據來編列這些預算對 當時我們其實應該是看應該是看國發會其實一些"},{"start":12285.636,"end":12307.008,"text":"對他其實有個人口推廓數據他今年應該會針對這個人口推廓數據再做更新我覺得我知道是他會在今年的8月會再做一次的更新只是剛剛跟衛福部跟次長討論我們針對那預算的部分我覺得大概衛福部其實大概編列7.991就是朝著大概8萬人新生兒去編列那可是我們勞動部就"},{"start":12309.549,"end":12324.177,"text":"預估就是10萬1500人其實我們兩個部會整體預算的編列看起來就差了2萬多個新生兒的預算去編列所以我們是建議啦應該以後針對這些預算編列應該跨部會我們能夠做一些檢討不然這個預算數據的編列上感覺落差很大"},{"start":12333.663,"end":12354.784,"text":"那個跟文說明就是我覺得針對這個人口數出生數數字的推估當然我們可以來跟國發會這邊來做一些討論接下來怎麼在實際上面能夠讓他能夠更加的精準可是的確因為他是推估所以當然都會有或多或少都會有一些誤差值那這個誤差值的不確定性我想我們是可以來做一些研議的檢討當然"},{"start":12356.245,"end":12371.333,"text":"對不過沒關係啦這個是說我們建議就是說編列預算的時候其實我們各部會針對這個人口數應該要有一個比較近的依據你看看起來這預算編列兩個部會其實推估的人口數上次有一些"},{"start":12371.713,"end":12382.949,"text":"因為這個數字在編列的時候去年其實在編列的時候其實那時候最後那個十萬七千這個數字其實也還沒有出來所以當時在評估的時候我們只能依據國發會當時的數字來去做當作參數來設定"},{"start":12387.91,"end":12407.378,"text":"好那重點還是看起來我覺得我們這8年大概花了6000億在我們少子女化的對策因應的計畫上面可是我們新生人口數我看也是從18萬然後現在也是一直下降到"},{"start":12408.098,"end":12434.437,"text":"十萬七千多人其實這段時間來我們已經每年新生到去年就少了七萬五千人看起來我們花了這六千億然後現在又編列這麼多錢看起來好像沒有達到實質的效益出來就是說人口數新生人口數還是一直在下降並沒有止跌我們不要講說回升現在連止跌都沒達到"},{"start":12436.087,"end":12439.215,"text":"那是不是應該要有提出一個更好的策略"},{"start":12441.229,"end":12467.787,"text":"非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心我想整個少子女化是所有先進國家先進工業國家普遍都會面臨問題全世界大概目前對這個對策大概就三個一個給人給錢給時間給錢的部分我們現在目前大概就是有各項的我們0到6歲的這個部分主要就有育兒津貼給服務這邊主要事實上就是我們現在目前正在推的各項的公托給時間其實主要就是現在勞動部現在目前在推的各項的彈性還有包括現在目前"},{"start":12471.229,"end":12494.954,"text":"的一個彈性的措施那我想這個多元的措施之下我們希望用多元的方式來解決這問題我要強調一點這個這個是2000年population study一篇最重要的一篇被人家引用快500多次的一篇paper裡面講這是多元的原因造成多元結果所以必須要用多元的方法綜合來解決那這個我們知道現在目前下降我們也會來持續來努力"},{"start":12498.335,"end":12520.929,"text":"其實今天提出最主要原因其實還是希望就是說我們要怎麼去針對這個政策去做檢討去做調整因為我們看一下我們看韓國他從去年11月他的人口出生率就到達2萬多而且他已經是連續17個月都是增加的而且他從2007年"},{"start":12522.91,"end":12539.301,"text":"也是前面他們也是人口出生率也是一直在降低可是他從2007年開始後面到去年他已經達到時隔18年的最高的標準也就是說韓國針對少子女化對策因應這一方面"},{"start":12539.981,"end":12555.211,"text":"他不是單就就是一直去補助錢補助錢他有其他很多的對策因應那我們是建議有做得好的國家我們也應該去參考一下人家去做一些什麼對策去因應那今天我們"},{"start":12556.412,"end":12585.536,"text":"這八年花了六千億然後人口還是一直在減低我覺得應該也是適時的去參考一下其他的國家的做法為什麼他們以前也是出生率也是降低為什麼這幾年已經連續每個月每年都在提升我覺得不要說回升啦至少我們要達到止跌所以今天提出也是說希望有些政策我們應該可以去調整一下方向可以去參考一下別的國家的做法"},{"start":12588.248,"end":12609.324,"text":"好那也希望說這個大家也知道就像剛剛次長講的這少子女化也是全球目前大家一個非常重要關注的一個議題啦那但是有其他國家做得好的我們也可以去討論也可以去檢討那也是希望能夠讓我們這個少子化的國安危機能夠做得充分的改善好謝謝好謝謝圖全基委員"},{"start":12614.373,"end":12634.965,"text":"待會洪孟楷委員詢答完畢後休息20分鐘用餐 接下來請王洪威委員發言好謝謝主席我先請衛福部現在是次長好 我有請那個李建德次長好"},{"start":12636.699,"end":12657.305,"text":"市長好 這兩天其實大家就是非常比較緊張的是有關於在中東戰爭而造成了包含油價的高漲 還有天然氣那雖然我們政府採取了一些措施但是現在在市面上有所謂的塑膠袋之亂"},{"start":12658.445,"end":12670.539,"text":"那當然這裡面因為這個塑膠用品實在用途實在太廣了那尤其也影響到我們的藥材就是醫療器材的部分那我想"},{"start":12674.13,"end":12695.305,"text":"我想请问一下因为在3月23号食药署对外的说法说没有短缺一切都很OK而且业者都有库存可是到了3月26号按照部长的说法说现在要准备不排除动用200亿的特别预算"},{"start":12696.005,"end":12703.974,"text":"所以我想請問一下在短短的這段時間其實每一天都瞬息萬變到目前為止衛福部有沒有會同經濟部來做包含庫存的調查價錢的調查以免"},{"start":12714.044,"end":12735.571,"text":"造成包含中盤商在做操作這些供需或者是價格而不要造成說整個的在第一線消費市場的混亂我想請問衛福部現在有沒有跟經濟部來做共同的防範或者是來做產業的調查"},{"start":12737.291,"end":12761.398,"text":"非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心我跟委員的回答是我們現在跟經濟部這邊我們有兩部的一個協商那我們先等一下下午其實部長他現在目前就是趕往行政院跟經濟部那邊要處理這個問題召開緊急會議反正就是我們現在目前我們都持續在因應這個問題那我跟委員報告三個重點第一個跟委員剛剛所說的醫材的部分主要就您剛剛說塑膠包材跟塑膠粒"},{"start":12763.038,"end":12790.349,"text":"那這裡面會影響到譬如像我們現在目前像輸入醫啦或者說洗腎液統等等這些或者塑膠醫療器材那這個裡面當然主要現在目前國內石化這邊主要當然我們主要是像台塑等等這些我們也跟我跟委員報告其實我們昨天也有跟台塑那邊也有一些討論那台塑他們那邊現在目前就是優先現在目前就是上游的部分他們會優先優先供給國內的需求特別是我們優先以醫材為主"},{"start":12791.729,"end":12807.897,"text":"你這邊優先一採那一般的這個銷這個廠商說塑膠袋很嚴重那有些建材說我們的建材都沒有了這個當然我們政府這邊會做我現在要回答現在就是說我們現在目前有在跟上游"},{"start":12808.217,"end":12816.547,"text":"工廠商在做協調 是的沒錯然後這裡面這是第一個回答第二個回答就剛剛委員剛剛所說的我們也估了這原料成本佔比大概25%那這裡面必須要但是我們認為最重要應該要從原料供應端"},{"start":12823.474,"end":12843.434,"text":"這個是我們的整個策略這樣的話用這種方式的話就等於從最上游那邊就可以來處理那這裡面所需要會有需要一些費用確實第三點就是剛剛委員剛剛說也非常感謝大院的一個支持有一個我們就是去年通過因應國際形勢強化經濟社會以民生兩百億的對那我們就從這邊用這筆錢來做為這一筆所以三個回答"},{"start":12848.038,"end":12865.065,"text":"昨天其實我也有問經濟部長我的具體的建議因為現在是非常時期所以我建議在上游廠商的部分應該採取非常的手段比如暫時性的在上游廠商這些材料的部分就是不要出口"},{"start":12865.985,"end":12867.366,"text":"那但是經營部長沒有答應我他說現在用勸導的方式可是我覺得應該是優先國內的廠商那因為別說衛福部比較擔心的就是這個醫材的部分對但是我剛剛講還有其他各產業他們都有一些塑膠製品"},{"start":12884.713,"end":12904.654,"text":"甚至一般的市场的这个小摊商或面包商说我的塑胶袋都买不到或塑胶袋很贵一个礼拜涨一次等等之类所以大家都在抢货可能政府某一个程度他要做一些非常的措施第二个就是我认为我们经济部跟卫福部要联手"},{"start":12905.534,"end":12932.7,"text":"要調查相關的庫存我剛才特別講你不可能說23號告訴你說都有庫存通通沒有缺貨到26號就要召開緊急會議那這三天在做什麼我覺得這一點這個院眼前的這個必須解決所以我也建議經濟部長說他要有這個魄力一週內塑膠袋滋亂全部平息沒有這些讓大家有哄抬的機會另外就是先時間暫停一下我請我們的"},{"start":12935.041,"end":12935.964,"text":"那洪生翰部長"},{"start":12943.491,"end":12959.686,"text":"部長還有次長我們一起請教一下其實我自己都有宣示過凡是能夠解決少子化的政策我一律都非常支持我想請問一下我們在台北市有一個育兒減少工時計畫你可以減食但是不減薪"},{"start":12965.251,"end":12978.985,"text":"至少到目前为止我所知道他们已经有200多家的企业去申请而且就是整个的回应的效果是非常好那我想请问一下我们中央有没有可能考虑跟进"},{"start":12980.728,"end":13009.746,"text":"跟委員說其實我們關於一些職場彈性化的做法其實我們其實也有蠻多的眼裡比方說現在以日來請暈留庭的做法其實的確成效是非常好的然後在這個成效下其實我們也在思考接下來如何在這個職場的彈性讓大家可以兼顧家庭跟兼顧工作之間然後有更多的擴大的使用我們目前其實也在做相關的工作"},{"start":13010.186,"end":13028.677,"text":"因為剛才有討論到12歲以下可以僱請這個外籍的看護但是事實上不是看護我知道就是幫傭外籍幫傭但是其實如果按照我們當時80歲以上免巴士兩表因為當時你們說有10萬名不得了會衝擊等等之類但是事實上市場並沒有像你們所講的這麼大的需求"},{"start":13038.582,"end":13061.289,"text":"也就是其實這些成本造成其實並不是所有的家庭都可以不管是老的或小的他都可以去申請一個外籍的幫傭所以我才特別去講到就是說在這個怎麼樣比如說你是一個彈性的工時的時間台北市的這樣的一個做法可不可以讓"},{"start":13062.729,"end":13082.03,"text":"這個中央也來做一個考慮因為並不是所有的人所有的家庭他都可以去申請因為其實算下來每個月大概都是要這個三四萬的一個成本另外我在這邊因為我看到我們的主席站起來我最後一個"},{"start":13084.352,"end":13088.154,"text":"這個建議因為呢現在有提出來就是要把這個外籍的這個移工也納入這個就是勞保費那我覺得必須去考慮到我們一般的家庭到底能不能負擔我們的雇主能不能負擔像今年我們的健保就是我們的健保費的這個費率提高其實就已經造成很多的雇主他的支出就已經提高了"},{"start":13112.248,"end":13135.88,"text":"所以我們在這裡必須要幫我們廣大的這些僱主來講他們的心聲就是如果這成本一直不停的跌高的話那麼這個成本會很高謝謝謝謝主席我簡單回應汪委員好不好我可以簡單回應第一件事情是我們其實現在也在研議其實對於很多這個家庭類的僱主希望有更多的支持的方案跟措施"},{"start":13136.6,"end":13163.975,"text":"這部分我們其實也跟衛福部其實我們也一直在其實我跟次長一直在做這個事情的討論就是希望能夠讓這些家庭的僱主包括尤其是他的會遇到一些空窗期能不能再進一步的縮短會有更多其他人力上面的支持這部分我們在研議中好還有這個成本上面不要再繼續疊加好不好謝謝好謝謝王宏威委員發言接下來請陳昭之委員發言那後面還是要請大家注意一下發言時間謝謝"},{"start":13166.411,"end":13168.208,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩洪部長"},{"start":13176.85,"end":13180.352,"text":"我還是跟你先請教一下放寬家庭幫傭的申請資格你已經看到大概至少有34個民間團體出來反對他們反對的理由包括他們覺得這個做法沒有辦法有助於女性的就業環境的改善甚至可能影響臺灣本勞的市場"},{"start":13198.784,"end":13204.368,"text":"甚至他們還提到了就是說加深階級的不平等那有關這一點就讓我想起來因為過去政府在阻擋這個代孕法案的時候這個性別跟人權影響評估常常被拿出來做理由那我請教洪部長這次開放這個外籍幫傭的這個政策好像你沒有做這個性別跟這個人權影響評估就直接宣布上路了不是這樣子的部長有嗎你有做嗎有在進行我也覺得"},{"start":13226.164,"end":13248.111,"text":"有在進行 進行中 可是已經宣布了不是 跟委員說明第一個因為性別相關的這些評估是行政院的性評會提出要求的所以我們會在下一次行政院性評會的時候把報告定稿提到性評會裡面我希望不要太針對性就是性別跟這個人權評估一樣不要太針對性就是說如果要做就是原則上來做不是原則上來做 是要做"},{"start":13250.752,"end":13264.642,"text":"要做部長那上個會期其實我已經跟您提到了就是說這個政策當時我問你多少人那因為那時候沒有官方數字我是用學術界資料那當然今天你估出144萬戶可能受賄不是不是不是144萬戶可能受賄是"},{"start":13266.704,"end":13280.833,"text":"他們符合有就是至少符合這個條件申請的資格符合條件可是他還要看他的意願包括他的能力包括他家的空間所以並不是我不敢說這140萬因為這個相對因為成本那剛剛前面的我也都提到相對這個成本是高的那負擔的其實是有限的我們認為可能是前20%才有能力來處理那所以我們會懷疑說這個到底是全民政策"},{"start":13293.38,"end":13308.338,"text":"還是真的幫助比較相對高收入的家庭等於用相對廉價的勞動力來達到這個多文說明其實在很多照顧喪志的政策它本來就會是分眾的所以它不是只是靠單一個政策可以解決所有人的問題"},{"start":13308.959,"end":13330.572,"text":"會有不同的政策去處理不同的痛點需求所以的確有一群人是有這個需求沒有錯但也有人也有其他勞工有別的需求我們也為他設計其他的政策有資格但是未必是要甚至我了解但是我想先請教勞動部你有能力引進多少家庭這個外籍幫助人你有多少能力能夠引進來你有盤點過或插盤推演過嗎"},{"start":13333.734,"end":13362.114,"text":"跟委員說這不是要說我有能力引進多少但是的確我們也是在跟我們的母國這個來源的母國來討論因為我跟委員說因為就像之前在談這個免巴氏量表的議題的時候我們其實當時其實也跟來源母國來討論是不是能夠擴大這個來源的這個來源量跟來源母國來做討論所以我們也跟他討論了幾個月的這個時間所以這一併是會有很多的配套要進行的"},{"start":13362.796,"end":13377.304,"text":"不是 我知道當然你們同時在做這些是很辛苦但是我總要問你你說我們沙盤退員過你有能力引進多少那大概再來看我們需求多少因為這個變成國家政策第一個是我們認為這個申請的它可能會是比較漸進式的不好意思請那個衛副次長也能夠上來一起"},{"start":13381.426,"end":13398.579,"text":"因為衛福部規劃最近最快今年四五月開放醫院要併這個外籍互佐要減輕護理師的壓力所以這個部分也是跟勞動部有關的請問現在是次長請問次長你覺得我們要多少人力才夠外籍互佐已經宣布了報告委員我們會開放是中階勞動力不是那個技術人力不是這個外籍互佐沒有外籍互佐"},{"start":13410.555,"end":13421.947,"text":"所以在第四五月你規劃是這個時候要因為要外籍護醫院聘嘛醫院需要外籍護佐當然有一些阻力可是衛福部已經講了其實我都有數字119年前要2000人我跟委員報告我們在長照這邊確實在夜間人力這邊我們會引進外籍"},{"start":13430.896,"end":13447.411,"text":"中階勞動力這個是確定的市長您現在是否認說有外籍戶左這件事嗎因為當然護理師本身有很多的關注跟委員報告是外籍照服員不是戶左照服員"},{"start":13448.491,"end":13467.539,"text":"那也是勞動部要因為我們現在知道的資料是應該是衛福部的住院整合計劃這一支計劃裡面要有外籍的補佐員應該不是外籍補佐你們彼此的政策有互相理解嗎"},{"start":13469.12,"end":13473.005,"text":"你們有做橫向的聯繫嗎我們收到的資料是他們是住院整合照護計畫這個計畫裡面會有一個比較像是照顧的輔佐"},{"start":13486.082,"end":13495.472,"text":"那個主操之務要注意時間那可是他一樣要有專業跟語言上面的訓練所以不是外籍互作次長請問部長我再談一下這個泰伯他開除工會幹部的時候你看看這個左邊這個投影片"},{"start":13501.738,"end":13505.039,"text":"勞動部說絕不容忍你知道最近泰伯不斷的透過媒體跟輿論等各種方法來試圖打壓工會董事長甚至祭出一億元的獎金鼓勵社會各界來試圖資方打壓工會那勞動部對資方這些動作有處理嗎因為你當時說絕不容忍你看這個標題我請市長來說明我們現在進入裁決的時候然後請簡短說明"},{"start":13529.167,"end":13545.947,"text":"院委員報告目前他工會有提出兩個裁決申請案第一個案子有關教唆會員退會的這個部分我們會在4月17號再召開一次詢問會議後會盡快的做一個裁決決定第二有關一次解雇理事長這個案子我們也受理了那我們也盡快的審理也會盡快的來做處理"},{"start":13547.588,"end":13563.8,"text":"你們不可以人眼旁觀因為你當初也我們絕對是依法處理我們絕對是依法處理部長我最後一個提醒是少子化的社會這個就是會仰賴更多的移工那移工的勞錢問題會越來越多那如果勞動部沒有做好準備整個國際都非常關心我們非常關注這部分"},{"start":13567.242,"end":13580.046,"text":"會影響我們的很多貿易協定尤其是大家現在在談強迫勞動尤其捷安特是一個非常重要的例子這個前車之鑒那請勞動部多加注意謝謝兩位謝謝主席接下來請侯孟凱委員發言"},{"start":13596.803,"end":13599.009,"text":"好 感謝主席 我們麻煩先請呂次長麻煩呂次長"},{"start":13606.498,"end":13626.723,"text":"市長我想今天感謝主席提這樣子的一個很重視的相關討論那本席有看到就是說其實長照的議題啊我覺得很重要的地方是很多需要照顧的這個家庭他其實沒有辦法說直接到相關機構或說在交通的部分這確實有落差為什麼呢因為"},{"start":13628.763,"end":13645.057,"text":"本席也接收到好幾個協會的陳情不管是無障礙協會等等他講說全台需要輪椅出入的族群差不多50萬到60萬這是協會給我們的一個數字但是全台可用的無障礙車輛約莫比較寬鬆的來算6000輛左右而這6000輛可能在於是無障礙計程車1000多輛"},{"start":13653.044,"end":13680.256,"text":"富康巴士2000多輛還有一些部分所以其實這樣子看得出來它的一個比例相對來講有落差那另外呢又以在六都上來說可能它的計程車無障礙計程車或者說富康巴士相對來講量能比較高但是非六都以外更少了所以說其實這就是一個你想說惡性循環藥或說它就是一個長期沒有辦法補齊的一個問題那"},{"start":13682.682,"end":13712,"text":"是 那我們現在就想要救教因為這是一個大災問而且他可能也不是只是衛福部一個部會他可能還要連同交通部一起來協助好 所以我們現在來想是說針對這樣的問題我們是不是能夠比較明確的因為本席一開始接收到這個協會成全的時候我也很訝異全台灣有五六十萬需要接送或是說不管是輪椅或是身心障礙或者是這個年長者他沒有辦法移動需要接送到底這個數字精不精準"},{"start":13713.789,"end":13725.623,"text":"委員對於這個問題的催省因為委員剛剛所說應該主要是需求跟供給供給跟需求之間的一個不均衡我們一定要先了解需求然後還有供給然後我們才能想辦法說怎麼樣加強供給那現在有問題現在就是說委員剛剛所說的50萬這個"},{"start":13730.708,"end":13757.716,"text":"這個數字我覺得恐怕因為我先跟我們報告啦供給端你現在說有關於那個復康巴士那個主要就是你要你要有那個你要有那個你要有那個身障的你要有那個身障那個鑑定嘛那身障鑑定那邊全台灣我們當然是這邊有一個數字可是另外一個是失能的就是老人失能的就是高齡失能身障這一些都算是可能無法移動或說需要協助那本息好"},{"start":13758.737,"end":13772.254,"text":"我講比較直接說我覺得我們應該可以怎麼做您聽聽看那我們是不是來討論是不是可以用三個月的時間盤點一下各縣市到底我們現在針對高齡 失能 身障這一些廣義加起來就是"},{"start":13773.656,"end":13792.858,"text":"需要協助就是需要達成無障礙不管是達成無障礙計程車達成復康巴士的這個人數的需求把它給統計出來因為我之前試著想要資料但是他比較片面但如果說我們能夠第一掌握到底各縣市22縣市這一個族群有多大是不是真如協會所陳情的五六十萬人"},{"start":13794.059,"end":13821.16,"text":"好那再來第二步再來盤點各縣市現在有的無障礙計程車富康巴士那我們來一對之後兩相對照就可以看得出來哪個縣市其實它的缺口最大或是哪個縣市其實相對來講它的落差比較我們第二步才能想是說那我們應該怎麼樣協助那個縣市並且增加好當然我最期待的是全台灣有一個合理的比例譬如說我們常常以前提到的護病比"},{"start":13822.04,"end":13849.589,"text":"就是1比9那我們也期待是說是不是每個縣市都要達到一個這個叫所謂無障礙車輛比就是它有多少的需求跟多少的車輛那1比多少是合理的範圍到目前為止我們好像沒有看到衛福部或交通部有這樣的一個數字所以次長能不能承諾三個月內我們盤點出來那也許我們內部可以先討論說那我們合理的這個無障礙車輛"},{"start":13851.482,"end":13870.462,"text":"比例是一比多少就一台無障礙計程車可以對比譬如說十個家庭那這是一個合理的範圍或是說七個家庭等於是一個禮拜一天那一台計程車它可以服務七天沒錯沒錯是不是我真的非常非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心因為真的是非常非常專業"},{"start":13871.363,"end":13897.708,"text":"那我跟委員那個報告三個月我們來盤點那我跟委員先報告剛剛同仁有跟我講現在就是說我們的這一個全台灣我們現在目前的聲音障礙總共有123萬那這裡面剛剛委員剛剛所說比較有一些肢體障礙總共是76709所以這個就一定的就是有關聲音障礙另外一個就是失能的失能長輩這邊我們應該都可以把它盤出來這個就是說確實你要需求要對準"},{"start":13898.588,"end":13920.493,"text":"要準確的估計這樣我們還有各縣市的分佈所以我們才能來做政策嘛這個沒問題這個我們來那另外一個也跟委員報告就是說其實事實上在那個生權小組還有在社會福利推動委員會其實很多團體也在推事實上我知道也有這個像林月琴委員她也一直在質詢這個問題目前供給端這邊我跟委員報告確實是有正出多門的問題比如說"},{"start":13922.153,"end":13948.964,"text":"富康巴士富康巴士誰管無障礙計程車誰管無障礙計程車的話事實上是交通局那我跟委員報告就是說我們現在目前在研擬一個就是國外其實事實上要這邊有兩個痛點第一個事實上是尖峰的問題就是說你特別是就醫等等這些的話這個可能這是一個問題另外一個事實上一定要有一個類似像這個所謂的call center的一個設計就是說就是派錢嘛然後不要讓閒置的人力浪費沒錯市長"},{"start":13950.545,"end":13971.004,"text":"剛剛我們講三個月我們盤點出來那我們三個月後再來說因為林月琴委員剛剛您都提到了所以我想我召委一定很關心這個議題那您先請回不好意思召委既然聽到你的名字再給我兩分鐘吧洪部長洪部長來啦洪部長拜託我請洪部長上來一下好不好因為每一個人的時間大家都一樣我知道"},{"start":13972.145,"end":13992.846,"text":"我看到黃秀芳委員也真的講蠻久沒有 她是我們本委因為我覺得外委我們都是一支本委跟外委我們不能差很多我關心的議題因為你現在用到的也會變成事實上是跟本委的時間會是一樣的對 但是 趙偉因為其實我剛剛我可以打斷次長我讓次長把他講完但是其實我今天關心兩個議題每一個委員都是一樣那一個 這個議題也很重要我是不是能夠好不好"},{"start":13994.158,"end":14011.363,"text":"我請部長上來兩分鐘不超過好不好就給你一分鐘否則那我們就稍微好來來請我想我們立法院就是要好好的讓民眾的聲音能夠被聽見嘛如果說這樣我們自我都限縮的話那我這樣也覺得說"},{"start":14012.723,"end":14028.76,"text":"我想行政部門應該不會抗拒或是害怕我們的質詢吧但我也不是要針對性部長我們在這一個上個會期我們有通過了外送專法這我們共同努力的那上個禮拜其實有一個很大的事件就是外送平台又說要用相對的收購的部分"},{"start":14029.341,"end":14055.775,"text":"那Glob這個平台它其實在過去東南亞也有一些不管是說列機也好市機也好它確實它是很強的一個平台也很強的一個APP那我現在只想講因為很多外送員現在也擔心說未來會不會變成又是壟斷的一個部分所以外送專法通過之後相關的執法以及最重要大家認為很大的重點透明度就演算法的透明度是不是要在執法裡面"},{"start":14056.215,"end":14077.161,"text":"可以說明一下 其實去年外送專法通過後現在相關的執法目前如火如荼的正在訂立中也在跟不管是外送員的社群或者是跟平台的社群各方有沒有納入可以要求因為我們那時候一直強調我們現在是地板但是我們要的是說看到他的演算法透明度"},{"start":14077.441,"end":14088.247,"text":"因為他演算法一遍再遍其實對外送員對餐廳很沒有保障所以我們就是依照我們去年三讀通過的法律在訂立相關的制度什麼時候可以出來呢來用麥克風好不好 市長來"},{"start":14091.906,"end":14113.744,"text":"那應該是年中吧這個年中現在已經三月囉所以說六月底以前可以出來執法執法有需要再公告嗎要要再公告所以我們六月底以前可以看到執法還有一些相關的預告作業相關法的部分我們再請教但是我要求六月中就六月底以前要出來"},{"start":14114.804,"end":14133.337,"text":"不是你要不要求 是我們原本就在這個方向進行這本來就是我們要求啊 我要求勞動部一定要如實做到我們委員會所通過的法例我們會依照三讀通過的法例好好的來訂定好 沒有問題 那我就看六月底我們再來追 謝謝接下來我們休息20分鐘用餐"},{"start":15500.083,"end":15526.848,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來請鄭天才委員發言好 主席有請這個衛福部次長來 請電德次長政委員您好 次長好"},{"start":15529.933,"end":15538.24,"text":"這個原住民族長照的一個文化健康站是沒錯這個我們在整個從111年到115年現在只有530多站"},{"start":15545.126,"end":15565.88,"text":"那我們看這個長照基金115年度我們看這個長照基金所編列的這個預算這個基金基金的來源有增加增加很多總共今年度115年度是1145億338萬1千元比這個"},{"start":15574.488,"end":15594.79,"text":"去年度758億多出了386億這是長照基金的基金來源當然用途也增加很多如果我們看這張整理之後的表這個基金用途這個上年度是"},{"start":15599.06,"end":15602.923,"text":"只有879億多那今年度115年度已經成長到1102億5000多"},{"start":15614.171,"end":15630.346,"text":"基金來源增加比例是51.01%增加很多實際上在基金用途上增加了25.43%如果我們看整個基金用途裡面分配給"},{"start":15632.335,"end":15653.929,"text":"原住民族文化健康站的部分去年度是15億那今年度有增加15億450萬增加了4500萬是有增加沒有錯但是如果我們從比例來看"},{"start":15655.568,"end":15668.408,"text":"從比例來看還是很少增加3%而已所以這個部分如果我們從原住民的需求原住民族的需求來看的話"},{"start":15671.004,"end":15691.154,"text":"我們在都會區文化健康站103站那延鄉地區現在有429站但是我們在延鄉我們的部落 延民會核定的部落總共有739站"},{"start":15693.669,"end":15707.034,"text":"也就是說我們還有310個站還沒有文化健康站社長或者是我們衛福部的同仁部落"},{"start":15708.837,"end":15728.553,"text":"部落與部落之間都很遠交通不方便甚至部落裡面的林與林之間也都會很遠所以你要說這個部落要到鄰近的部落就很難所以它的需求數還是非常非常多雖然"},{"start":15730.915,"end":15747.247,"text":"115年度的經費有成長文化健康障碍成長但是成長的比例還是如果要跟整個基金用途的成長比例來講還是差很多這個部分這個衛福部是不是"},{"start":15748.388,"end":15763.858,"text":"在因为你的基金来源还有增加很多吗还剩余很多而且还可以这个超支并结算何况也没有超支啊因为你的基金来源事实上是很高啊"},{"start":15766.105,"end":15789.113,"text":"非常感謝鄭委員對我們原住民一直以來的一個關心剛剛委員有垂詢特別是文化健康站我跟委員報告其實在有關於您剛剛非常關心的文件站的部分預防延緩失能我們非原民平均一個人一年是14000我跟委員報告原民的話是85679"},{"start":15792.019,"end":15798.603,"text":"這個就是說其實就背書而言其實我們對原民這邊其實是"},{"start":15802.193,"end":15826.207,"text":"那個相當到你要講的了但是我們現在我們就整個金額或是我們的需求數來講就部落來講就還有一半三百多個部落沒有然後你剛也講了這個距離也都很遠然後如果我們從平均移民長照就會涉及到"},{"start":15827.912,"end":15849.564,"text":"平均移民對不對 你看我們的平均移民落差還是7.54% 將近8%這樣的一個落差 加上還有一個狀況我們到都會區就學就業的 年輕人都到都會區了所以留在部落的就是老人"},{"start":15850.858,"end":15870.545,"text":"所以他的你看百分之五十二点多现在都会去这是有社户籍的所以这个部分这个加上面社户籍的年轻人到都会去就业但是他他的研究还在部落的一定是七八成了所以他的在原乡的"},{"start":15871.377,"end":15892.332,"text":"他的需求數仍然很大是也會跟我們平均一面除了這個健康醫療各方面之外這個部分也是其中重要的因素之一這個請衛衛部多多支持好OK好謝謝非常感謝鄭委員謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員發言接下來請盧縣議委員發言就是有請洪森漢部長"},{"start":15902,"end":15914.544,"text":"那現在是長照3.0了嘛那知道長照2.0的滿意度是多少嗎"},{"start":15923.126,"end":15946.522,"text":"這個是衛福部的業務沒有關係 因為我是故意問你的想說你知不知道九成是九成 對那可是為什麼是九成也沒有去想過我在想是不是缺乏對結案者或者是說符合資格去為申請服務還有去短期使用者的一些data所以我覺得那些不用的不用這些長照資源的人你要去問為什麼"},{"start":15947.603,"end":15975.388,"text":"我覺得長照310可能就是要去解決這些沒有去使用或者是說中途離開這個長照的這個系統資源的人然後去解決他們的那個當時遇到的難題我覺得是一個方向那我們現在在我們看根據我們衛福部跟勞動部的那個第一章的報告大概做了一些整理那我們等一下再細談我們先看勞動部的部分"},{"start":15978.14,"end":16002.081,"text":"就是說我們現在的長照的價很像是沒有一個法源的依據因為育兒的話他有育嬰價可是長照的話現在是家庭照顧價所以我們希望有一個就是所謂的比照我們的育嬰價的這樣一個法源所以是不是有一個長照安排價的這樣一個未來的一個方向部長會不會支持"},{"start":16003.468,"end":16021.266,"text":"跟陸委員說明的確其實我們是有看到這個社會其實對於長照相關的事務其實有必須要協助處理的需求尤其是受雇者那因為現在其實長照3.0的制度就像剛才委員說的其實也是近期那開始上路"},{"start":16021.826,"end":16044.487,"text":"所以過去其實會有一些狀況可能這個很多的勞工他因為要做長照相關的安排或者是處理的時候他還是的確會遇到一些空窗期所以我們其實也在跟衛福部在討論那也請衛福部再研議跟評估就說3.0上路以後那些過去大家可能會覺得比較長時間的等待或空窗的部分那可以縮短到什麼程度"},{"start":16044.927,"end":16071.709,"text":"那在有這些相關的數據跟需求的樣態了解以後我覺得我們比較好來綜合的思考是不是要透過一些公使或者職場的制度來去做一些支援的部分OK 沒關係那我們就繼續來努力了那多元陪伴這個部分我看很像只有13家全國然後只有大概服務的4800人次就一個國家的希望工程來看的話我覺得這個部分會不會覺得太少了"},{"start":16072.469,"end":16086.396,"text":"第一個跟委員說明這確實是一個事半的計劃那其實去年4月上路那我們其實也很小心因為這個政策其實我們有點像一點一點一點的在擴大一開始是四家六家一開始六家"},{"start":16087.625,"end":16109.705,"text":"那到後來我們把它擴大那接下來當然也希望這個服務的模式如果相對比較成熟的話那可以在更多的縣市來找到可以協辦的跟我們合作的機構那一起再來做擴大的示範那常常遇到的就是說看得到吃不到這樣的一個窘境就是有些照服員他根本就不願意去接這些短期的案子因為心裡面有個負案要怎麼去改善它"},{"start":16112.17,"end":16125.557,"text":"你說的是本國的兆福園嗎對啊就是他們比如說外籍康復他要去請假結果多元陪伴計畫不是用兆福園那兆福園是衛福部這邊OK好那沒關係那我們請衛福部好謝謝"},{"start":16132.698,"end":16148.206,"text":"市長好市長好我也好對我們講說現在的兆富源可能就是不會去接這種短期的案子我們就是有沒有在想說要怎麼去給他們增加誘因讓他們去做這些短期的一些案子那有喘息真的真正的可以喘息"},{"start":16150.154,"end":16177.084,"text":"包委員我們現在是採取這個都採取預約的那個方式來來進行那我當然就是誠如剛剛洪部長剛剛有說我們也現在也在也都在檢討檢討現在目前的一些整個執行情況執行期間是不是有哪一些還不夠好用我們會來跟勞動部這邊來密切合作像這個地區我的理解就是比如說一個部落到一個部落可能要一個小時來回就要兩個小時他可能一個早上只服務了兩個個案"},{"start":16178.245,"end":16187.479,"text":"所以我一直在想到現在還是還沒有對針對這些偏遠地區的造福源有些偏遠加急或者是困難度的加急"},{"start":16189.016,"end":16210.43,"text":"目前還沒有看到這個方案我已經提了很多次所以我一直覺得是說哪一個方案就是照服員啊他們比如說在一個比如說這個部落到那個部落的距離非常遙遠讓他一個一個早上可能只服務了兩個個案可是就平地地區的照服員他可以因為地理性的關係或者是交通便利性的關係他可以一個早上可以服務"},{"start":16211.351,"end":16235.66,"text":"超過他的倍數或者是說很像早上就可以服務10個個案我常常遇到這種造福源那你看收入卻是差很多可是他的困難度跟他的辛苦的程度不亞於在平地地區服務的造福源包委我們現在目前這個部分其實是有那個啦您剛剛說那個部分有一個誘因就是那個交通津貼每個月3000塊的一個我覺得還是太少啦那個勞動部長請回謝謝"},{"start":16239.261,"end":16264.233,"text":"市長那出院銜接這個兩天我覺得是不是太美化了因為我覺得在如果是在原住民地區根本就不可能拿到所以我在想這個均速四天是不是也把那個我們弱勢跟偏遠地區的把它很像也平均掉了根本就看不出來那個它的困難程度所以我覺得針對我們偏鄉跟加入出院的家屬是不是應該要去做一個真的是怎麼去落實這個出院銜接的這個服務"},{"start":16268.795,"end":16288.086,"text":"跟委員說明那初輩銜接長照服務的這個部分因為在偏鄉居住的民眾他就醫大概都是到因為醫療院所有初輩的都會到都會區就是醫療資源供應的區域所以當他出院要回到部落去那這個部分我們現階段是讓醫院的這個初輩小組這邊來完成"},{"start":16293.329,"end":16307.794,"text":"當天如果能夠銜接完就一個案子有2000塊的獎勵金那如果他遞延這個時間的話獎勵金會遞減現在跟醫療院所這邊開過會他們目標都要朝向爭取拿到這個最高的獎勵金"},{"start":16309.054,"end":16330.368,"text":"所以我們會這塊會努力那現在全國平均下來其實是去年年底的資料是3.66天所以是平均4天那我們今年目標是平均兩天如果下次有資料的話是不是把偏鄉或者是說假日出院的把這個資料特別拿出來看是不是有比較稍微更長一點或者是實際的那個數據來呈現讓我們知道可以嗎"},{"start":16333.85,"end":16361.459,"text":"就是就住院的部分我看到全職陪伴或者說部分陪伴希望有照護輔助人員來幫忙可是我們也確實有遇到一些陳情就是他到了醫院以後找不到人可以幫忙然後醫院拼命打電話給家屬可是家屬他沒有辦法請假所以會變成說其實很像有看到這個餅可是卻享受不到你現在說你現在是有大概是100多家院所嗎"},{"start":16362.799,"end":16389.044,"text":"可是我們的跟我們陳情的是在屏東的屏東的地區區域醫院還是會遇到這種病患的家屬的陳情就是說找不到人可以照顧甚至是因為造成護理人員的那個就是他已經夠忙了有互辯別的關係他就護理人員會對他們怒言相向就等於是在病房裡面就吵架了我覺得這個部分是不是還是要"},{"start":16390.184,"end":16416.13,"text":"那若是在照護輔助人員的這些人力的部分跟委員報告就是我們住院整合照護就是就醫院有提出這個計劃申請的話我們就是在他照護的比例一定要有這個照護員的一個搭配那剛提到也有可能這個醫院他沒有實施這個住院整合照護那他就請一般的看護的這個狀況那最後就是我們"},{"start":16417.35,"end":16438.893,"text":"附帶今天的陳情案一個叫PAC計畫他想不到來跟我們陳情因為他一直認為說他是屬於這個就是類似像腦中風他是受傷造成他沒有意識然後意識模糊然後需要這樣子全時間照顧結果因為他沒有辦法加入這個PAC計畫所以就在醫院裡面被踢來踢去然後強迫他在"},{"start":16439.754,"end":16466.625,"text":"幾號要出院然後再到另外一家醫院然後現在又要求他在3月6號出院因為他說他的被拒絕的理由是他未滿18歲因為這個這個病人剛好17歲而已他是因為在過年期間搬阿嬤搬東西結果從車上掉下來打到打到腦所以就變成現在這個狀況然後在台東又加創的是那邊沒有所謂的復健科醫師可以收病房所以我覺得是不是要去先解決"},{"start":16468.085,"end":16478.794,"text":"這個年齡限制因為你腦部受傷並沒有年齡限制他是說醫院的他好像有寫信給衛福部衛福部的答案就是說未滿18歲沒有在這個PAC計畫裡面"},{"start":16481.263,"end":16503.9,"text":"OK 非常感謝委員 我想這個確實我覺得這沒有年齡的問題部長其實有指示我們 我們現在會有一個PAC的照護照那也希望會後的話 各位辦公室要個案的資料那我上次有講到環境疾病的一些就是脊腹的問題 上次是ITP就是血小板底下的問題前幾天又說到乾燥症的問題"},{"start":16504.76,"end":16522.842,"text":"我覺得不能全無或是全有也就是說有的時候有補助有時候完全沒有補助應該是有一個等級或者說按照個案的比如說他的經濟狀況或者是他的家庭環境我覺得應該是以%的一個補助比如說每個月兩萬多塊對一個要撫養四到"},{"start":16525.985,"end":16552.698,"text":"四到六個小孩有些是在工作是沒有工作這樣的會造成家庭非常大的負擔尤其是原住民還要在部落還要在多月去租房子那我是覺得說這樣的一個罕見疾病我是覺得不能用他實際的那個病情但是還要酌情他的所有的條件家庭環境也好還有他的經濟來源也好所以每次給我們的案子"},{"start":16553.618,"end":16567.94,"text":"我們就說奇怪 已經罕見疾病的那個經驗那麼高為什麼我們都享受不到這樣的一個福利可以嗎 市長 好的 OK好 感謝委員 好 謝謝好 謝謝吳憲宜委員發言 接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":16579.076,"end":16582.977,"text":"有請兩位一個是我們的衛福部的呂次長那後面那一半部呢是請勞動部的洪部長但是部長來的時候請那個王司長扶植退休師跟那個保險師的陳副司長陪同先請我們次長先請呂次"},{"start":16607.782,"end":16623.213,"text":"我可以趕啦 你不用趕啦女士啊 會不會覺得只有20分鐘午餐你吃過了沒阿伯 吃20分鐘午餐不是很健康啦可見我們胃環的真物觀不但腦袋靈光 身體也要健康 祝福你好 幹嘛問這個問題啊 健康有關的來 下一題"},{"start":16624.829,"end":16644.876,"text":"欸廚師不碰錢可以降低餐飲的污染風險嗎人家第一個反應是廚師不碰錢餐廳會賠錢不是是因為調理人員不可以同時接觸金錢是不是這樣子去年鬧的軒然大波衛生部有沒有接到電話詢問啊為什麼最高罰兩億欸我牙齒要到最頂端這樣才罰兩億我全部給你好不好但是有沒有影響"},{"start":16646.167,"end":16656.643,"text":"鈔票硬幣有多髒有這什麼葛蘭市楊氏郡葡萄球郡聯合郡對不對雖然我們兩個都不是個專業的但我想你懂啦所以後來我們為何不有在推這個嗎"},{"start":16658.683,"end":16678.192,"text":"包委我們就是但是我直接問你啦在國外旅遊醫院有沒有用過這種叫做自助獸營點餐機你可以用行動支付也可以用現鈔也可以點餐這樣會不會就可以滿足衛福部的要求可以嘛但是我們期待所有的小吃店都裝這個欸 應該不會糟糕只靠宣傳推廣夠不夠"},{"start":16679.714,"end":16699.968,"text":"不夠好來我們看那衛部會怎麼做往下看衛部呢我們的地方的衛生局呢重點稽查的對象包括有重大食安隱憂的啦熱門的啦特定場所的我們有九種樣態會怎樣會要優先稽查高強度去稽查對不對這合理嗎沒錯從風險管控的方式這些我們多去查反過來說來下一個"},{"start":16701.969,"end":16726.658,"text":"那如果你又符合GHP的就是你有優的或良的那麼我們地方衛生單位就是減少稽查的密度而且你貼上這個會增加顧客的好感對不對衛生部就這個手段而已嘛那我想請教一下如果這樣的話未來如果採用那樣的機器自助收銀那它也沒有高風險它也沒有無接觸的結帳有沒有幫助它可以取得這兩種標章"},{"start":16728.058,"end":16744.384,"text":"其實照道理應該要應該要不是應該要你們要求要沒錯可是單靠這個業者有動機嗎沒有參營業者來我告訴你參營業者他們什麼人過去我曾經調查過我們國內50萬到60萬大概這個為免用統一發票的小店家"},{"start":16745.8,"end":16767.164,"text":"將近八成是什麼是餐飲業在疫情期間經濟部針對他們一個月營業衝擊補助4萬塊他們喜不喜歡好開心喔另外呢我們的賴總統在2018年當行政院長的時候他也去動了一個政策就是用行動支付用行動支付那你就可以怎樣得到1%營業稅不然要5%還補助你手續費還補助你什麼設備經濟部有這樣的預算跟宣導外部有嗎"},{"start":16775.739,"end":16784.586,"text":"沒有所以怎麼辦這是一個打群架的時代如果像你們剛剛要推動這些餐飲業者改用這種事情的話來下一頁小規模營業人行動支付租稅優惠2.0財政部也出手了"},{"start":16791.687,"end":16812.034,"text":"為什麼因為賴總統那個到2018年到2025年就落日了2026年起這些裝的行動資助的店家可以延續用2.0他裝了一個多媒體資訊服務機就是我說的自助收銀點餐機就會繼續享有什麼1%的優惠那有這樣的好康你覺得經濟部會不會宣導"},{"start":16813.762,"end":16834.007,"text":"會宣導 會宣導 沒錯衛福部要不要一起去宣導對不對 你要告訴餐飲業者 你整隻你就可以優或良喔 是不是這樣那你要不要承諾跟經濟部跟財政部一起來幫助我們這個將近小店家將近八成是做餐飲的解決了他們是不是就達到了衛福部的要求"},{"start":16835.345,"end":16864.485,"text":"所以你對嗯之外可不可以說你願意加入OK 鮑偉那個我覺得非常感謝你這個這題真的非常Smart的一個Design我要回去跟部長報告我覺得這是一個就是一點理由啦是 希望你跟部長報告之後呢部長指派你或林次長讓我來邀請財政部的次長和經濟部的次長一起三個部位共同來通好不好好 OK好 接下來我們要請那個勞動部的洪部長謝謝看下一頁來 待會呢我要請教洪部長的我就先開始講了你慢慢走"},{"start":16865.345,"end":16875.758,"text":"那個現在我們勞退自體有超過134個員工3萬的員工參加勞退自體可是自體率目前不到18%部長你覺得這滿意嗎"},{"start":16878.784,"end":16904.391,"text":"我們都希望再盡量再拉高因為勞退自體真的對勞工是有幫助的是的我覺得勞動部這樣做是對的但是你們分析哪些人會參加勞退自體哪些人不參加勞退自體我看一下會參加的大部分都是收入月薪比較高的沒錯平均大概六萬六那而且他們大部分年資生有時候會退休他們期待的是什麼穩定的投報率所以要保證兩趴所以他們是參加勞退自體有兩趴嘛"},{"start":16905.231,"end":16919.147,"text":"但是年輕的人不見得不參加字題他不參加字題什麼原因我們看到現在很多年輕人會幹嘛領古族對不對買基金嘛有沒有遇到這樣年輕人他賺的沒有很多但是他為什麼不加追勞退字題他自己去選投資標的呢"},{"start":16922.263,"end":16945.791,"text":"呃他其實有些因為我們的確看到比較多他是薪資比較低的人但是他想要參加他不參加勞退字體他自己去買肌膚通為什麼他喜歡找那種投報率高的是不是這樣子所以同樣一個勞退字體不同的心情高收入的高月薪的比較資深的他希望穩健現況但是新加入職場的欸他雖然稅金可能不會很高他希望找那種比較有"},{"start":16946.771,"end":16974.558,"text":"積極性的有投報率高的但是目前勞退好像不能提供這樣的一個需求對不對那未來下一個過去我們有考慮過勞退自選嗎自提自選嗎因為其實勞保是有勞退的投資是有保證收益對2%對所以我們如果自選的話就不保證我們目前是沒有規劃自選是但是為什麼會對自選有保留呢因為他不保證投報嘛對那如果說要吸引那些"},{"start":16975.734,"end":16993.726,"text":"不保證投報的那這些參加穩定投報的自提的人他反對什麼你們要參加自選的你們就自己投報啊我是我沒有自選我有固定投報啊他們為什麼也不太高興有人可以有自選可以選"},{"start":16996.553,"end":17011.104,"text":"其實主要我覺得是在這個保證的投報率的部分其實他擔心整個勞退的水位下降現在勞工都來要參加自提沒有自選通通在自提自提的水庫會一直有水位"},{"start":17011.664,"end":17032.534,"text":"如果未來新進的年輕勞工他不參加自提他要自選他跑到另外一個小水庫去了原來的大水庫水位就怎樣會下降是不是這樣子所以他們希望說不要有個自選的選項分開了我們勞退的水庫對不起主席還有一點點時間好那往下看那有沒有可能我們去吸收這些有可能參加自提的人來"},{"start":17033.715,"end":17042.918,"text":"未完委員會我曾經在去年底問過就你們的答案是什麼涉及勞工退休資金的權益變革勞僱商的權益結構廣泛收集意見收集完了沒"},{"start":17044.079,"end":17072.177,"text":"我已經收集了根本說沒有因為現在的確會有一些大概純現在講的我們講的是純救治的不是不是我現在講的是說為什麼這些參加自體的人他不希望有個自體的選項因為自選的選項會跑到外面去嘛所以他原來的自體的人的水庫會所謂會下降嘛所以我要告訴你是說我們怎麼樣讓現在選擇自體的穩健型他的水繼續加入好不好部長再給我30秒時間我很快的講完"},{"start":17073.486,"end":17090.715,"text":"勞退的救治如果你是維持救治的你有一個要是公司倒閉會不會支錢你怕這個風險你就選擇薪資是當年但是有些人選擇留在他的救治他30歲30年滿基數之後他就沒辦法繼續累積他的退休保障這是目前有一些幸運兒"},{"start":17092.196,"end":17119.857,"text":"但是大部分人都選擇心智選擇心智的人他在自提往下看但是自提呢他就是這樣你就是固定的投報率保障2%但是如果這些滿技術的人在僱主同意的情況提前結清他把這些帶槍投靠把這些錢來加入了自選的方案或者說自提不是自選自提的方案是不是讓我們現在自提的水庫水位增加現在自提的人他希望怎樣固定投報率嘛"},{"start":17121.018,"end":17135.324,"text":"這些滿基數的人心態也是比較保守他希望有保證投保率你們歡迎不歡迎一句話你們歡迎不歡迎如果這些人來加入我們因為的確現在有一些工會尤其我們研議對於這些目前還純救治的勞工是不是有機會"},{"start":17136.744,"end":17157.933,"text":"可以有這個得到這個我按照你講話的節奏因為因為字體的績效這幾年就是勞退薪資的績效這幾年很好所以希望有沒有機會可以有多一點的也可以幫忙他投資的可能性那就拜託你們好不好那這個是我們會來研議我想我們會來研議那最後的結論呢請衛福部調不是這首首是勞動部啦"},{"start":17159.833,"end":17187.847,"text":"為參加勞退自提者是否有自主投資你們去調查一下如果他有請問他的投資標的種類跟他期望的投報率為你們的勞退自提或者是自選找到你們潛在的對象好不好可不可以請勞動部做出這樣的一個生活報告我們可以做一點study這個部分一個月內好不好還是要三個月我主動給你三個月啦三個月好了好不好謝謝謝謝主席的寬容也謝謝部長祝你有良好的腸胃健康"},{"start":17189.974,"end":17198.201,"text":"很難耶 因為未還真的好 來 我們謝謝我們的仲嘉賓委員發言接下來請郭益勤委員發言好 謝謝主席有請次長你要部長還是次長是 次長 先次長不過還是要提醒大家真的 發言要主席部長也可以啦"},{"start":17218.542,"end":17228.605,"text":"都好 部長好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊"},{"start":17247.95,"end":17274.23,"text":"那我想但是這個84這個數字很漂亮但是其實背後我想要幫一群人來講話這一群人是不是沒有真正的被接觸其實就是我們所謂的三明治族群那因為現在少子化所以其實有很多的重擔都落在這個三明治族群下有小上有老但是他們其實也是我們社會當中的企業的這個中間的分子同時也是最依賴的這個最重要的一個戰力"},{"start":17275.291,"end":17299.643,"text":"那我想在這個韶智樺剛剛提到這個這樣子的一個結構跟衝擊之下有時候我們要承擔來自這個父母親的晚年的健康但是我們還要承擔孩子們的未來所以其實這個我們的三明治族群很辛苦但我們現在的制度真的有讓他們可以不需要在這個孝順或者是在工作之間可能我們要在工作或者是在家庭這兩者合而為一嗎還是兩者我們真的不用讓他們二選一"},{"start":17303.545,"end":17315.019,"text":"那我想這個是值得我們去思考的那我想這個長照服務不是只有申請就馬上會到位他其實還包含我要失能的發聲醫療的處置還要貧欠的評估最後的結果最後實際服務進場這中間啊"},{"start":17322.628,"end":17345.868,"text":"中間啊有一段好長的空窗期這個空窗期就是我們這些三明治族群最辛苦的時候因為他還要兼顧工作可是他還要跑這些所謂的程序對於一個從來沒有經過所謂的長照的這個照護者的訓練的這些所謂的三明治族群這個對他們來講是很大很大的一個"},{"start":17346.648,"end":17368.061,"text":"肩膀上的負擔啦體力上的負擔啦心理層面上的負擔啦請問我們衛福部我們真的在這個部分有沒有幫他們有一個支持的一個制度能夠讓他們在轉弦的這樣子的一個部分也能夠為我們的我們一直在講長照3.0我們一直在講我們要照顧很多人問題是這一群人有沒有被接觸"},{"start":17371.285,"end":17399.408,"text":"跟委員說明確實就是這個從這個病一個事件到他後面落入長照服務中間這個空窗盡量把它縮短所以我們現在從兩個方面一個就是在醫院的住院過程當中那個轉協就是叫做初備初院準備服務這裡去銜接長照服務那過去大概從初院到長照進來大概在這個2.0之前大概是要51天"},{"start":17400.629,"end":17418.416,"text":"那現在我們去年大概縮短到四天左右平均3.66天那我們今年是希望再往前推進這個讓它縮短到兩天這個大概是我們希望能夠盡快去讓它縮短最終目的就是無縫接軌啦那當然第二個也必須這個"},{"start":17420.757,"end":17437.878,"text":"要有這個評估就是在這個剛剛您提到的長照需求評估那個評估的時候通常也需要有家屬在旁邊所以這個是剛剛為什麼今天我們會有這個什麼照顧假這個的討論那當然另外一個銜接的部分是我們在"},{"start":17439.379,"end":17455.604,"text":"做你還是會這個住院的時候需要可能一下子就需要你還沒有長照之前可能就需要住院的生活照顧了那我們就是推動這個叫全整合性的這個住院照護"},{"start":17456.304,"end":17481.144,"text":"就是由兆福園直接進到醫院來那麼用一對多的方式來服務那這個已經做了兩年成績也還不錯那但是過去礙於預算規模比較小大概在5000床左右所以我們今年把它擴大希望從過去的5.6億一年到25億就是希望也來銜接住讓這個大家不用請假來住院顧這個病人"},{"start":17483.286,"end":17512.732,"text":"但是剛剛其實也有委員特別有提到啦其實我們的長照安排假我想可能要請一下這個我們的深漢部長我想這個長照安排假的這個必要性那我提到一點就是過去我們可以說大家多子多孫多福氣這個兄弟姊妹可以大家一起輪流來照顧其實真的就會所謂的比較不會有少子化的問題但現在不是現在真的不是然後再來我們講四成的僱主其實認同長照安排假的一個必要性"},{"start":17513.112,"end":17527.886,"text":"他們也認為其實要留住這些所謂的比較資深的一些中階的幹部對公司來講是有更好的一個有利的一個發展那但是問題是我們現在在這個目前性別平等工作法當中的家庭照顧假只有7天"},{"start":17528.647,"end":17547.919,"text":"然後另外呢跟我們的市價並起來大概就是14天但是我要提到一點我們大家也思考一下就是長照安排假其實不是要全職的看護而是有時候真的突然突發事件的時候他可能會需要兩三個小時比較零碎的破碎的一個時間但是我們怎麼樣在短暫的讓他們能夠在接手照顧工作同時安排妥當之後他能夠再重新的返回職場那這段的緩衝期我們的支持"},{"start":17557.105,"end":17572.581,"text":"抱歉 抱歉我把你撬起來你可能沒時間等候不是他站起來我跟郭文維回答就是說就像剛剛時務長說的因為現在長照3.0其實也正在努力的盡量大幅縮短這些相關的空窗或者是去協處的時間"},{"start":17573.962,"end":17597.799,"text":"那我們會來看衛福部他會針對長照3.0後的這些需求的樣態做出評估以後我們再來綜合思考是不是要透過一些工作的制度職場的適度來去回應這樣的需求那這需要一個綜合評估的過程好那我們希望儘快如果有一些比較具體的一些計畫或者是進程再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝郭玉琴委員發言接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":17606.402,"end":17608.809,"text":"謝謝主席主席我請一下勞動部紅部長有請紅部長"},{"start":17615.123,"end":17635.269,"text":"因為現在就是家庭外籍幫傭可能申請的資格算是非常的嚴格啦必須要家裡有三個六歲以下的小孩子才可以申請 對不對"},{"start":17636.469,"end":17657.647,"text":"現在的制度當下的制度這個制度就是形同虛設因為一個家庭有三個小孩都很困難的何況是三個六歲以下的所以行政院大概就已經拍板要放寬"},{"start":17660.089,"end":17676.088,"text":"可是這一下子就放寬成家中只要有一名未滿12歲的兒童就可以申請是不是現在政策方向是這樣可是每一個月必須要繳交就業安定費大概5000塊那勞動部這邊"},{"start":17679.852,"end":17702.839,"text":"統計大概適用的家庭有144萬戶應該是符合資格的所以大概在下個月13號就開始申請那我有一些問題請教跟部長討論一下就是說我們有資格放寬了可是根據"},{"start":17704.611,"end":17710.977,"text":"近期的民調指出台灣的女性假如聘僱外籍榜樣有"},{"start":17713.157,"end":17737.299,"text":"就是有四成沒有就業的人大概僅僅會有四分之一的人返回職場顯示這個放寬家庭看護工的部分對於振興理性的就業率好像成效有限那政策上路以後大概可以提高多少"},{"start":17738.2,"end":17748.564,"text":"根本說沒有就是希望我們提高讓現在可能沒有工作的女性返回職場或能夠投入到這個職場裡面工作但我們有很多相對應的計劃在執行那當然這個"},{"start":17753.175,"end":17778.648,"text":"外籍帮佣制度的这个心智或者说放宽其实它主要的目的我们自己在看它主要的目的其实是比较是在这些目前已经是双薪家庭的劳工里面那他们可能常常会遇到他照顾家庭照料家务然后跟他的工作里面会忙不过来会焦头烂额的状况所以我们比较是希望说这个如果你"},{"start":17779.971,"end":17798.403,"text":"願意請或者是你有條件請然後你想要請的話讓他可以因為要照顧家務而必須要離開職場的人數更減少所以主要是我們是希望讓更多的雙薪家庭他們可以更安心的"},{"start":17799.584,"end":17817.866,"text":"工作然後對於家務的部分對家庭的部分能夠也可以減緩他們照顧跟這個做家務的壓力所以就是安心工作然後家庭減壓那我現在講的就是因為有一部分婦女因為現在單負責家庭照顧的責任嘛"},{"start":17818.306,"end":17835.79,"text":"所以她並沒有投入職場嘛我現在是想說等到新制上路了以後呢部裡面這邊應該要有相對應的措施跟政策來鼓勵或輔導這些想要投入職場的女性"},{"start":17835.97,"end":17853.37,"text":"根本說明我們其實我們也一直在規劃甚至接下來會來精進這些婦女二度就尤其二度作業的婦女回到職場相關的計畫我想我們已經規劃到一個程度近期應該就會來做這個精進計畫的公布好那放寬了外籍看護"},{"start":17855.371,"end":17876.536,"text":"大概對於對於現在現在的從事保姆工作的的人呢可能會有一些一些衝擊會不會如果都沒有任何配套的話可能會有會有一些在他們可能服務時數上或服務案員上面可能會有一點影響這可能會有所以這是為什麼要提出"},{"start":17877.717,"end":17893.738,"text":"這個配套措施的原因那你們目前有配套嗎因為4月13號就上市了我們其實這個配套大概怎麼樣部長簡要說第一個是我們會來協助讓這些托育人員開發更多的案源那增加他們勞務服務的機會"},{"start":17895.76,"end":17909.765,"text":"那所以衛福部這邊其實也有相關的托育的媒合的平台那勞動部這邊我們也會針對家事的工作者本國的家事的工作者來建置這個媒合的平台讓他們找到更多可以服務的機會這部分"},{"start":17910.925,"end":17935.883,"text":"那也包括我們可能也可能把他轉為育兒指導員我想那個衛福這邊也有討論是不是能夠讓他能夠投入到育兒指導員的工作那勞動部這邊我們也目前近期其實也推動這個企業托育的政策企業托育政策可能也會創造更多托育相關的職缺那我們也會主動的來看假設他有意願的話就是現在的從事保姆工作的相關人員就是"},{"start":17936.263,"end":17959.042,"text":"保姆或托育員相關的如果他有機會如果他有意願的話那我們都可以願意進一步的來增加他的這個工作的這個勞務市場所以這個平台的建立就是很重要然後怎麼讓這些人不要因為因為移工政策的改變反而讓他們的工作有問題"},{"start":17962.325,"end":17987.096,"text":"時間沒有關係我最後跟部長討論一下長照安排價就是說現在我們長照安排價是不是部裡面這邊的看法是怎麼樣我看民團呼籲除了必須要儘速推動以外還包括"},{"start":17988.984,"end":18016.238,"text":"30天六成薪的假還有150天無薪彈性請假對民營團體或各界其實的訴求跟期待我們都清楚了那但這部分我們只是跟衛福也在討論因為衛福部的長照3.0剛上路那過去其實很多在長照在協助處理的過程裡面可能會有的空窗或者一些需求的狀況其實可能也會做蠻大程度的改善"},{"start":18016.838,"end":18041.678,"text":"那應該衛福部這邊目前也在盤點這個長照三年上路以後這些改善的狀況就是這空窗可能會縮短那可能會縮到多短這可能需要一點時間去做盤點也把需求的樣帶盤出來那我們再站照這樣子盤點的狀況大概再綜合的來思考那是不是要透過一個職場的制度或工作的制度來去做相關的因應但這部分確實是需要一些評估的過程對"},{"start":18044.218,"end":18071.814,"text":"部長是這樣子因為台灣就是根據你們114年的調查有超過六成的勞工會因為家中長輩有長照需求考慮離職所以長照安排假好像是一個必須要做的要走的政策那有四成的雇主贊成"},{"start":18073.491,"end":18101.192,"text":"現在問題是在大概要抓多少天數啦懂我的意思嗎所以這要看需求的樣態對這要看新的我們長照制度上路以後需求的樣態到底還有多少需求這部分確實是需要跨部會一起來做討論對就是部長的意思是長照3.0國家的長照制度推的"},{"start":18102.236,"end":18126.101,"text":"越好長照安排價的需求就越低嘛就是說可能就沒有這麼多大家讓他很煩惱的時間啦對啦就是說長照3.0我再講一次長照3.0覆蓋面越廣空窗期越短連接的越緊密需要的長照安排價就"},{"start":18127.423,"end":18144.97,"text":"天數可能我們在討論的時候就相對可以短一點嘛是不是這樣所以目前你們可能也沒有也沒有長照安排價的內容的想像想要推動的初衷我們是了解的"},{"start":18146.51,"end":18166.161,"text":"你們會贊成去推我們還是跟委員說明還是我們要先做這個需求的評估這個新的長照制度下的需求的評估需求我剛才已經講了你們的調查是六成以上的老公會因為家中長輩有長照需求而考慮彼此"},{"start":18167.642,"end":18178.892,"text":"就像剛剛衛福部有回答過去可能你從出院到有長照的支援可能要50天左右可是他們現在大幅的把他縮短到4天3天可能後面還在縮短長照"},{"start":18181.93,"end":18194.405,"text":"不僅限於出院的不只對所以有各種樣態所以這些各種樣態我們要先去做了解跟理解不然因為時間的關係我大概講一下就是說我們當然希望長到3.0"},{"start":18197.875,"end":18213.568,"text":"蛻變以後可以覆蓋面更廣一點可是呢 承讓安排價的部分你們可能也必須要我們都會綜合的思考給你 及早做思考那至於我覺得就是說"},{"start":18216.803,"end":18243.335,"text":"我向來主張勞工跟企業必須要同時兼顧那天數的部分你們可能在討論的時候也要一併就是長短啦假如說我在看台灣高齡化的速度還有長照3.0的覆蓋面長照安排價一定會經常被提出來討論"},{"start":18246.097,"end":18261.117,"text":"你們應該要及早做討論跟因應好不好謝謝委員提醒謝謝補習謝謝主席謝謝楊耀委員發言鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在接著請李昆城委員發言"},{"start":18271.163,"end":18272.227,"text":"謝謝主席我們請勞動部紅部長有請紅部長"},{"start":18282.182,"end":18308.973,"text":"李委員好部長好今天稍微特別安排這個題目其實大家也都在關心長照的照顧價剛剛楊教委員也有提到應該很多委員都提到目前還在考慮這個評估的主要的原因在哪裡第一個就是因為任何的制度會先去評估它的需求"},{"start":18309.933,"end":18335.915,"text":"那一定有需求啊但是需求有的量長或短所以現在的狀況是因為這個第一個長照3.0剛剛上路那過去長照3.0也是希望就像剛剛楊委員講希望它的覆蓋面也讓過去可能更多那種空窗期的部分可以縮短所以我們其實現在也在跟衛福部在討論想要了解說這個整體長照制度目前其實已經覆蓋到什麼程度了"},{"start":18336.696,"end":18347.783,"text":"那它的空窗的部分或者是需要銜接的部分還有多少的需求要需要多少時間這部分會需要一點時間來評估因為包括長照三年政策它其實也是持續的推進這需要半年的時間來評估嗎"},{"start":18349.883,"end":18377.96,"text":"這部分可能要跟衛福這邊討論一下我們可能會需要一點時間因為這個政策也是新的政策在往前推進你講的是長照3.0這個政策但是我現在在講的就是說這個長照照顧假這個不是百分之百同樣的一件事情但是這兩件事情是有蠻大的相關的比方說過去如果空窗期是50天的時候那它的需求就蠻大的"},{"start":18378.88,"end":18392.646,"text":"可是如果空窗期大幅縮短的時候它的需求可能就會降低一些所以這件事情本身的評估會跟整個大的長照制度的狀態會有高度的關聯那我請一下石部長好了來那您這邊"},{"start":18395.134,"end":18418.192,"text":"因為其實有需要啦因為我們照顧小的其實照顧得都不錯了嘛那現在就是說長者或是需要照顧也不一定是長者需要照顧的這些長照的這些人跟委員報告大概有兩種狀況啦一種狀況就是說剛要進入長照的每年會有一些因為因病啊然後之後就失能然後需要進入長照服務"},{"start":18418.772,"end":18443.53,"text":"大概我們推估大概這一年大概有三萬多名像類似像這樣這裡面比較嚴重的就是我們在這個嚴重度在七八級的大概20%那這些就是很需要這個還沒有長照進來之前家屬要自己照顧所以我們在盡量的縮短這個中間的空窗期另外一種是像高齡化社會像偶爾會發生事情所以才會剛剛"},{"start":18444.491,"end":18470.718,"text":"洪部長在提的是到底我們針對的對象是哪一些那就會影響到他的需求量有多大後端的影響如何配套那到底是以這個架的方式來形成呢還是要以這個留職停薪的方式來做這個我們可能需要再一點時間來把它我當然知道就是說會一點要需要時間那我的意思就是說那你們"},{"start":18471.318,"end":18489.658,"text":"需要多久時間來檢視說譬如說長照3.0這個政策做了之後那我們這一個長照的照顧的空窗期能夠縮短然後呢接下來再來考慮譬如說洪部長這邊來考慮說那我們是不是要有這一個長照的照顧假是不是大概順序是這樣子嗎"},{"start":18490.299,"end":18512.616,"text":"是跟委員說明在長照2.0的時候我們是從這個空窗從51天縮短到去年是大概3.66天平均那所以前面這裡我們已經大幅的縮短可是在接下來要壓縮當然它的那個挑戰性就會更高我們的目標是希望看今年能不能讓它縮短到差不多兩天左右"},{"start":18513.917,"end":18528.843,"text":"實務部長的一個目標那其實如果這個空窗期縮短的話其實資方的接受度也會提高是所以說那我再請教一下洪部長對所以就像剛剛實務部長說的就是說我們也在看它縮短跟實施的狀態如何"},{"start":18530.363,"end":18551.18,"text":"這會對於需求的評估上面會很高的關聯你如果是五十幾天的時候那這需求就非常大那如果現在是四天還是剩兩天甚至更短的時候那這個需求的評估就會不一樣所以我們去做這個制度的研議的時候當然第一件事情會先針對需求上面去做一個定量或定性的理解這樣子"},{"start":18552.74,"end":18576.309,"text":"我們還是會比較關心的比如說這個需要半年的時間先看看部長還是覺得說我們是不是空窗前應該收到兩天這個是你的目標嘛對不對那如果說收到兩天大概需要多少時間然後需要多少的費用然後四天的話需要多少我想這個應該這個紅布朗這邊應該是能夠按照這一些參數把它模擬出來"},{"start":18577.589,"end":18595.179,"text":"我覺得還有一個部分就是樣態就是哪些情境有這個虛假因為這裡面會有個到底是大家在討論的是一個個別的價還是比較快狀的流停因為國際上可能都有但是個別的價的話其實也蠻多看到它是比較是無心的"},{"start":18596.66,"end":18621.557,"text":"沒有關係我覺得這些都可以列入考慮所以我的意思是說這個這件事情的討論的前提是需要對於樣態做更精確的了解到底是需要一大段快狀的時間還是是需要比較零碎的個別的天這就不太一樣OK好我本來還要再問就稍微已經站起來了因為今天也推了比較久了好啦就不耽誤大家的時間了好 謝謝"},{"start":18623.168,"end":18634.157,"text":"好 謝謝李坤城委員 接下來請劉...葉元之委員 葉元之委員 葉元之委員不在 接著請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝主席 有請洪部長 沈部長你休息一下一個鐘頭的時候再叫你 好 謝謝"},{"start":18651.325,"end":18669.592,"text":"部長今天謝謝主席特別排這個在職照顧者的知識體系視我完善然後長照3.0服務輸送與長照安排價的評估那從早上到現在部長聽到這麼多委員的意見有沒有評估出來的"},{"start":18671.129,"end":18699.066,"text":"那個跟劉遠說明就是剛剛其實我們一直在跟衛福部也在討論其實對於現在是長照的制度新的制度上路以後那接下來民眾尤其是受僱勞工他還會遇到的一些狀況包括他可能需要等待的時間或者是需要協助的樣態那我們希望有一個進一步的盤點以後那我們就一併的一起來評估說是不是要透過職場的制度工作的制度來去加以給予幫助跟支持"},{"start":18699.446,"end":18720.714,"text":"他會有一個評估的過程跟邏輯我是請教你說因為從一早到現在嘛對不對那你回答我最後就是有一個評估跟邏輯我聽不太懂意思當然一定要評估啊所以說你現在你內心從早上聽到現在是不是有一個方向一個範圍"},{"start":18722.615,"end":18736.728,"text":"我自己的內心當然我們當然認為也不是我自己的內心包括我們其實部裡面我想包括現在其實相關的部會其實都希望要因為照顧而離職的勞工可以減少我覺得這是一個最重要的方向"},{"start":18737.748,"end":18762.298,"text":"因為我們最不樂見的事情就是勞工因為他要做家庭的照顧而必須被迫離開職場這其實對我們整體的勞動力產業的發展都不是好事我想這件事情是我們一個很重要的初衷的邏輯跟原則在這個地方但至於進行或者現在大家討論到是長照的安排要是假還是留庭還是用各種其他的做法我想這部分我們就是需要跟衛福部再做更進一步的討論"},{"start":18762.978,"end":18792.031,"text":"所以簡單講你的內心深處到現在就是還沒有辦法做一個定奪啦應該是這樣嘛因為我看不進你的內心所以你講出來的時候就是還是沒有結論啦就是制度要走哪一個路徑去幫忙這件事情的確還需要研議對啦 研議多久其實今天因為剛剛委員會的時候林耀勤委員其實有一個提案那大概會有三個月的時間其實我們對於相關的可行性會做出一些研議三個月對就是今天早上的提案對對我知道會不會太久了"},{"start":18793.335,"end":18816.15,"text":"你的內心會不會感受到這樣事有點過久了?是不是需要縮短一些時間?當然提讓我們尊重啦我為什麼這麼講?因為你自己講的也非常清楚嘛這個數據應該是正確嘛家庭照顧者公園總會提供的全國231萬的勞工有5人之一因為照顧失等失智身心障礙家人而影響工作"},{"start":18816.77,"end":18836.499,"text":"每年約有13.3萬因照顧離職這是勞動部的資料所以我們也是在這個基礎下面去做這些思考那這個數據如果是正確你看一年你引進多少外勞現在一年嘛 淨增加的大概幾萬大概3萬3、4萬你從國外引進3萬 每年狀況不一樣淨3萬 左右也沒關係嘛 對不對那我們每年因為這樣"},{"start":18844.471,"end":18860.664,"text":"要照顧兒離子的有13.3萬你再怎麼進是3萬多你因照顧兒離子13萬多你看這個落差多大所以台灣永遠在缺工啊怎麼補你都補不到啊 補不滿嘛補不足啊"},{"start":18861.79,"end":18883.332,"text":"這是現狀這是現實嘛所以今天我想這個絕對不是要單純你跟衛福部部長兩個有共識之後的一個處理啦我覺得這個是可能要拉到整個院的層級來看待台灣的勞動力整體因為這一塊那個缺角的擴大的範圍是越來越嚴重"},{"start":18885.097,"end":18898.244,"text":"還是你可以跟我講說三個月評估轉之後我們可能下半年度還是每年開始我們每年不會因為要照顧失能失智身心障礙的家人離此的這樣的一個數額它是會每年開始"},{"start":18903.308,"end":18912.854,"text":"可能會減大致上剩下10萬那你剩下10萬那你補消融過來那就還好我這麼講我這麼講是也沒有算是很精準但是只是看到這個數據我們用數據來做對比來做評估來做因應嘛"},{"start":18921.823,"end":18947.072,"text":"因為我這邊可能沒有辦法跟你說明年就一定會怎麼樣所以我說我們希望在這裡因為其實剛剛我們在講的很多的概念其實我也都是完全同意的那也是我們的一個方向跟目標但對於具體的做法跟制度的路徑那要做哪個選擇這的確我們會需要一點時間來去做這部分的評論尤其這也是需要跨部會的討論"},{"start":18949.419,"end":18958.614,"text":"我再用一個對照,我是覺得部長絕對有那個魄力,包含市部長都是非常有魄力,做事情的這種因應的"},{"start":18960.955,"end":18984.316,"text":"過去累積上的經驗我看到都是很正面的也是很快速的你看嘛 你承擔起來有拿出魄力再改革就會看到成果一月期運營價從過去必需一個月然後申請單位一個月改為一日來申請所以將近兩個月而已藍心的申請比例從過去的全年27.8%大幅增加到44.3%"},{"start":18986.539,"end":19005.722,"text":"女性從72.2降到55.6這兩個剛好卡巴起來就男性提高16點多女性降16點多也讓整個照顧小朋友的責任不會只有著重在女性的身上對新手爸媽而言我想這個對家庭的整個融合啦然後對小朋友的親子等等等"},{"start":19006.351,"end":19028.308,"text":"其實都是很正向的這樣的發展這個就是有魄力啊這個就是政策趕快來做不管從幾個面向來做處理的時候那一實施出來我們就看到這樣的一個效益跟成果的展現嘛所以我才會在總執行的時候也特別跟院長提這個事情嘛然後也希望說原本要0到3歲那我們很多的這種規範是0到6歲那為什麼不能提高到6歲"},{"start":19033.232,"end":19052.165,"text":"對不對部長也欣然的答應我所以我們其實現在也在對於要把這個適用的範圍擴大然後再做研擬對這個我們就可以這麼快速來做因應來做處理也看到這樣成效那我們現在全國缺工這麼嚴重然後每年還要引進外勞將近三萬出"},{"start":19054.554,"end":19083.723,"text":"好左右然後你們又要去開放這個什麼這個這個家庭的外勤搬家12歲以下的今天有很多委員提出這樣的一個討論嘛對不對姑且不論這個政策的精準與否嘛那我們可以看到我記得次長那天有講一句話了齁他是這麼講他講說李氏這是李氏的答覆的各國生意率涉及因素複雜提高生意率並為列為放寬家庭搬家的主要政策目標"},{"start":19084.583,"end":19097.539,"text":"那護療戰略也不是考量重點因為已經有其他政策在推動女性勞產力了開放外籍幫佣是在眾多協助安心續留的政策裡面再多加一項選擇"},{"start":19099.205,"end":19122.215,"text":"這你們主動說話嘛安心續留安心續留難道不是用於在本勞的身上嗎當然當然這是我們的目標這個我們就我們就好像好像事業你們就要你們就要處理的嘛對不對就要執行的嘛那你跟我講你這個研擬多久啊評估多久啊在你內心深處啊放了多久嘛"},{"start":19126.011,"end":19150.305,"text":"今天還要有勞林月琴、渣偉再提一個臨時提案要求你們三個月他有沒有刺激到你的內心深處對廣泛的每年因為要照顧家人不管是知識人身心障礙而必須被迫離職的13.3萬的勞工而言情何以堪"},{"start":19151.667,"end":19160.313,"text":"每天有十幾萬的 十幾萬 十幾萬 十幾萬的你一天補三萬 補三萬 補三萬三天有超過 超過三十萬的所以你勤勤勤勤的在嚴重的時候站在勞動的主管機關人力的整個這樣的一個穩定安心蓄流的權穩之下這事情你沒有辦法在你的內心深處放太久"},{"start":19182.506,"end":19207.899,"text":"今天沒有排這個案,坦白講,很多事情我們沒有辦法去凸顯出來。那今天已經排出來了,大家就從各個角度來做一個思考。我就單純從這個角度,因為台灣欠缸,欠到你想不到的嚴重就對了。然後以農業外勞而言,大家都非常清楚嘛,對不對。那頭照有照到什麼程度?"},{"start":19209.712,"end":19228.776,"text":"然後這幾天的媒體陸續在報導以前淘寶外勞就是補足農業這一個勞力不足的部分那農民部這邊也積極的在統一主管機關的申請的量能在擴大人數在擴大嘛但是怎麼擴大你都補不夠啊你都補不夠,那幾十萬"},{"start":19235.615,"end":19254.738,"text":"將近十萬以下你一年我就補多少六千每年又六千以下你不是每年六六千喔那個落差現在一萬二還是一萬八王子差不多一萬五左右上下嘛對不對然後現在實際上有在台灣的農田裡面實際上的這些逃跑外老將四十萬左右"},{"start":19256.56,"end":19265.163,"text":"你如果不處理暗示,遇到疫情的時候又不敢處理,現在是要處理,現在又流氓時期了,又流氓時期,對嗎?現在又不處理暗示的時候,這個逃走在我們台灣的國土裡面,已經有一定天堂的經驗了,所以他還自己活動,白天在台灣的農民宿營,"},{"start":19286.667,"end":19302.958,"text":"講給介紹,他快做快整快修快處理看得我們中的,因為他不知道他看不到他未來在台灣還可以待多少天拚一天賺一天就是多一天"},{"start":19304.246,"end":19321.246,"text":"那這樣的惡性循環情況之下,很多的台灣的整個農業狀況,它就會持續的惡性的循環,不停止啦。好,那我把這個問題拉回來,我是對照說,你針對這個"},{"start":19324.045,"end":19340.3,"text":"應價的整體的這樣的一個放寬然後鼓勵更多的這些新手的爸爸媽媽來提出這樣的申請我們看到這樣成效所以我們希望下半年度我們就可以擴大這樣的一個範圍跟鏈局讓更多人都有這樣的"},{"start":19342.122,"end":19366.198,"text":"這樣的一個機會來提出這申請對整體社會而言對每一個家庭而言都是一個正向的事情那我們現在要來處理這些非常辛苦的期待可以提出這個照顧假申請的我們勞工的朋友我覺得我們的速度一定要加快我們會自己來演繹你看嘛日本我們多都是仿照日本對照日本比較日本學習日本"},{"start":19367.119,"end":19396.412,"text":"人家1999年就提出93天的有薪照顧假他們是在2008年邁入超高齡社會人家提早高檔人家做這些事情這坦白講我是用一個數據來做比較不一定進入到超高齡社會才必須要做這些事情但是台灣是2025嘛進到超高齡社會我們沒有提早我們還是7天並7天的施假真的有道理"},{"start":19398.183,"end":19416.069,"text":"對不對 七天 又多一個七天你要看留言嗎 我幫你看一下喔今天你宣導留言啦在去年的10月13 播一個宣傳家庭照顧假的文章那請部長來看嘛照顧假就照顧假 試假就試假為什麼要一起計算讓人之有機會在那邊囉哩啪嗦"},{"start":19418.048,"end":19427.391,"text":"然後主管不准部署請照顧假說他的單位不准請就是只能以施加7天還對部署瘋狂咆哮標罵不然就滾去別單位所以以部長的積極做事的態度跟那個因應的"},{"start":19446.986,"end":19472.122,"text":"處理的方式我覺得這件事情真的不能拖了是真的不能拖了我們會盡快來研議產業或許有一些不一樣的意見產業也缺工啊你這個育嬰價的部分其實你調查起來是產業基本上也都支持嘛"},{"start":19473.364,"end":19484.637,"text":"那天在院會答詢的時候花了一些力氣說服所以在你的累積經驗裡面只要花了一些力氣應該就可以來說服這個家庭照顧假應該"},{"start":19488.556,"end":19510.824,"text":"應該可以快速的來做一個抵高吧把這個換為把這個任期然後讓台灣的勞工不用不會再看到這種數據每年因為有13.3萬就五分之一的勞工五分之一的勞工裡面又有13.3萬因為照顧因為要照顧家裡的私人私事等對象而被迫離職我們如果這個會期可以決定"},{"start":19516.495,"end":19526.138,"text":"把伴拿出來部長的內心深處應該是朝這個方向那我們下半年度就可以實施那我們明年就可以馬上看到成效"},{"start":19547.768,"end":19570.876,"text":"謝謝劉謙國委員發言 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在 接著請陳瑩委員發言謝謝召委 麻煩請石部長跟洪部長 麻煩兩位部長"},{"start":19576.227,"end":19602.28,"text":"这位好部长好两位部长好那我们今天讨论这个长照安排价的可行性原理我有看到这个媒体的一则报道引述的是日本早就早自1999年依育儿介户休业法提供93天67%的这个资金的这个家庭照顾价那我想要请教一下日本有这样的法律劳动部"},{"start":19603.641,"end":19613.521,"text":"清楚嗎那媒體報導之後勞動部的官員有沒有向部長報告日本這個法案的實質內容還有執行的成效如何"},{"start":19615.343,"end":19632.65,"text":"跟委員報告委員提到的這部分其實應該是他們留庭的部分他們其實應該有點像他們的這個他們叫介護休業那這部分是留庭的比較是留庭的概念那假的部分他們其實也有可是他比較是無心的部分對"},{"start":19633.737,"end":19659.845,"text":"所以你看整體那個他們執行成效怎麼樣有去看嗎有特別去看他們的執行成果我們可能還要再對執行的成果做進一步的了解但就制度上面我們是有去掌握的對因為他們執行成效好壞這個是值得你們好好去研究一下他們的留庭的部分請的部分是比較低是比較低的"},{"start":19660.711,"end":19686.076,"text":"好那我就把问题抛出来这个是你们要去注意的那接下来就是我们台湾现在已经有这个家庭照顾假了那原则上是7天可以并入到这个市假共14天那不挤薪但是也不可以影响到全勤那现在呢又提出有挤薪的长照安排假那事实上"},{"start":19687.216,"end":19705.841,"text":"實際上就是這個家庭照顧假那我要請教洪部長說其實我想要請教的是兩位部長就是說如果假如我們今天推動的這個通過了兩種假都同時存在的時候那兩位部長"},{"start":19706.781,"end":19730.028,"text":"又是刚好是这个又是事业单位的这个雇主那你会优先安排没几星的家庭照顾价还是要几星的长照安排价我想先听一下其实可能还是要看室友跟对象因为家庭照顾价他的范围是比较广的对"},{"start":19733.55,"end":19746.186,"text":"就是他發生的室友是什麼就比方說他如果是說他突然他要做小孩的照顧那這會是他的這個對象跟室友他會是一個選擇所以會要看他的室友"},{"start":19747.333,"end":19772.337,"text":"所以你要看你会他有员工请假了那对啊你要优先准他准他这个没有几薪的还是有几薪的但是要看他的室友就是说他的室友是那如果都如果都符合那你要先你是雇主你会先给哪一种假现在常常安排假不是我们现在还在讨论的事情吗"},{"start":19773.154,"end":19782.753,"text":"所以说假如通过的话我现在说假如通过的话其实我觉得可能会要跟因为这个问题都是你们会面临到的问题嘛我觉得可能要跟老公一起讨论"},{"start":19783.667,"end":19806.075,"text":"對你如果還要討論那施部長看法怎麼樣跟委員說明如果從我們早上在討論的這個長照安排下比較像有一些比較概念上比較像說因為這個家庭剛開始有一個需要長照服務的私人的家屬的時候那需要有一些安排跟適應"},{"start":19807.775,"end":19823.408,"text":"所以他可能都是屬於第一次的這個概念所以跟家庭照顧假有點不一樣家庭照顧假可能是他已經變成是長照的對象但是他有時候需要譬如說他家裡的這個外勞他這個"},{"start":19826.914,"end":19847.731,"text":"離職或者是什麼他要回去照顧他一下類似像這樣不過回過頭來講因為一個是有薪一個無薪那就要看這個企業主一定會考量成本那如果這個薪資是這個保險給付的跟是他要去負負擔當然這中間就會有不同"},{"start":19848.693,"end":19866.226,"text":"所以我想這一題主要是這個人性的分析站在就是說雖然好像是從僱主的角度去看但是這個直接受害或受惠的就是要請假的勞工所以"},{"start":19869.158,"end":19887.393,"text":"因為其實因為我們現在在討論因為我們把家庭照顧假跟這個長照安排假把它分開那分開會有分開的問題好那所以也為什麼分開今天衛福部就必須得坐在這裡"},{"start":19888.214,"end":19906.865,"text":"好那但是因為日本整個是把它放在一起那這個範圍擴大了就其實在程序上仔細去研究其實可能是可以少掉很多不必要的困擾好所以所以我就點出來這樣子啦就認真想一想"},{"start":19907.645,"end":19926.294,"text":"好這個很簡單就是雇主的心態是什麼因為我們要推動這個那你一定要知道人家的心態人家的想法人家的問題你才可以這個功無不克嘛那所以這個很簡單的問題我相信大部分的雇主如果這個有選擇的話"},{"start":19927.995,"end":19957.133,"text":"大部分正常的都會從這個那個沒幾星的價先先給嘛這很正常啊好 池部長你可以先請回回座認真聽好那所以啊這個實際上的問題在於這兩種價的差別那我們光從字面上去理解一般民眾可能會搞不清楚那既然是長照安排適用的條件是不是就是說長照服務的對象"},{"start":19958.564,"end":19970.35,"text":"但是這個長照的這個中央主管機關是衛福部也是今天的苦主我們再看來安排給架的這個中央主管機關勞動部那將來"},{"start":19974.236,"end":19989.554,"text":"給假的申請呢通過與否又是事業單位要去要去決定的事情但是事業單位他有沒有能力去認定長照的標準他有沒有這個能力"},{"start":19991.204,"end":20007.16,"text":"我想他們比較會看數字那萬一不同意給假的時候那勞工呢可能又告上地方政府勞工主管機關然後又是勞檢又是開罰然後再訴願事情恐怕就是沒完沒了那"},{"start":20008.101,"end":20027.504,"text":"嗯就是說我只是我想我們在這裡很單純我可以去預期預見一些未來可能發生的狀況那我不知道部長的這個看法是怎樣你們這樣看起來到底是在解決問題造福民眾還是最後又製造一堆問題"},{"start":20029.858,"end":20052.912,"text":"跟委員說明其實現在關於這個長照安排價這個概念跟他的範疇說實話就像今天委員會其實大家都還在討論這其實並不是甚至還有些概念不是很清楚對就是他不是大家不是已經把它界定得很清楚就像剛剛時務長說的你是要針對這個一個家庭他的長照初次長照安排來給還是那後面的其他呢還是如果"},{"start":20054.273,"end":20068.23,"text":"這個有一個勞工說他想要自己回去照顧長輩那這要給嗎所以他的涵蓋的範疇跟適用的範疇其實還在大家還在討論這其實還在即時管理的過程所以還沒有那麼快就界定"},{"start":20069.151,"end":20095.555,"text":"對我另外再拋出一個問題這個你們可能大家都沒有想到就是說我們是不是要再考慮這樣的假這樣的補貼對於這個家人沒有長照安排的需求然後是不是會產生不公平的現象增加30天六成薪那延伸出來的勞務呢可能就要有沒有申請的這些有上有每天去上班的勞工朋友去做"},{"start":20096.355,"end":20119.769,"text":"或者甚至雇主自己要下海去做这都是有可能那势必会增加其他人的工时和工作量那换句话说是不是对于不申请或者没有申请需求的劳工朋友变成是一种变相的这个惩罚性条款因为他事情变多可是他钱没有变多还是你们有想说劳动部有"},{"start":20120.749,"end":20146.363,"text":"有會去想這個配套對於工作量增加要去share請假的人的工作的這些人那我們是不是有什麼樣的配套第一個當然是謝謝委員的提醒不過的確這整個議題其實它的評估跟研議其實還沒有走到現在委員講的這個段落那目前其實還在比較前期的需求的掌握跟評估了解的狀況"},{"start":20148.164,"end":20163.373,"text":"那當然各界的聲音因為有些會期望有些也會有一些覺得要注意的事情那我覺得這些事情都應該被綜合的思考跟討論所以今天我們的這個我們的質詢其實也是本席也提出很多的提醒"},{"start":20164.013,"end":20192.143,"text":"好那我想這個很多都是兩面刃的問題那我覺得身為部長你應該要可以預見未來你會面臨到什麼當我們要做一個決策的時候那你有一個好的配套如果說今天來share的share掉其他請假同仁的這些工作的同仁那他們可以有獲得比較好的這個怎麼樣的獎勵或者是"},{"start":20193.683,"end":20216.42,"text":"一些津貼那當然我想對其他人是比較公平但是這些錢要從哪裡出還是要從雇主被扒一層皮再出一次好這個都是大家要去思考的那本席要強調的是就是說讓有需要的請假的人"},{"start":20217.921,"end":20241.691,"text":"让有需要的人去请假那特别是这个劳动领域的这个假是两面任的问题但这也是非常专业而且很严肃的课题啦假要怎么给怎么放不仅涉及到这个工时的弹性调整也影响到整个经济的发展那如何兼顾同样的就是说你怎么样两边都顾得很好那"},{"start":20242.611,"end":20264.756,"text":"我想同样的价对于这个热单滚滚的这些产业影响到了这个产能不足的问题对于这个关税冲击然后订单减少不得不采取减班休息的产业他们可能也会增加这个人事成本负担然后影响到企业的生存那企业无法生存的时候呢他最后"},{"start":20266.331,"end":20293.534,"text":"回过头来伤害到的吃亏的还是劳工过去我们是为了劳工的七天假已经付出社会很惨痛的代价所以不得不慎重就是说我们98%都是中小企业那企业内有没有能力去因应也是需要去思考评估的你不能说你没有任何评估然后就贸然立刻行动"},{"start":20294.355,"end":20322.141,"text":"好那最後呢本席還是要回到就是說現有的這個家庭照顧價的這個實施成效去講那請問勞動部114年家庭照顧價的這個申請的人數或比例是多少那個跟委員報告我們114年統計那個調查員工有意願申請家庭照顧價是4.2%那沒有沒有意願沒有需求家庭照顧價是95.8%"},{"start":20324.437,"end":20351.818,"text":"所以不到一成這是我們的調查這是醫院的調查並不是實際上面的狀況那有沒有什麼指標來衡量就是說7天的家庭照顧假不夠了那需要再延長然後需要去擠薪有沒有跟委員說明第一個因為當然外界很多討論家庭照顧假要不要擠薪的問題那可是擠薪的話就會分兩個第一個是要由僱主出還是要由政府出"},{"start":20353.137,"end":20372.022,"text":"那如果不由雇主出的話只要由政府出的話那是當然所需要的費用其實這個所需要的經費就蠻龐大的那這的確會需要考慮目前政府的一些相關的財政負擔能力的問題我想在這邊再跟你們問個資料"},{"start":20373.422,"end":20401.358,"text":"就是說因為我們現在正在執行的這個勞動政策那政策執行好不好需不需要調整勞動部都有責任跟義務就是說讓我們全國民眾來了解嘛那這其中12歲以下的幼童跟年長的這個照顧請假的比例你們清楚嗎有沒有資料12歲的幼童跟年長照顧對說為了這事情的請假還是我們可能要再調一下資料看一下有沒有這樣相關的統計手上有沒有"},{"start":20403.41,"end":20423.176,"text":"你們有算有有統計過嗎如果沒有就說沒有我意思是說顧老跟顧小把它給分開來看的話他的比例大概多少我們可能要再調一下資料好你們有沒有做過這樣的統計有或沒有你們可以我們就是現在是有三歲六歲的受雇人數"},{"start":20424.349,"end":20441.379,"text":"那個時間的關係你們這個後續 因為跟你們要這個是不知道你們有沒有統計過因為我們在外面也看不到這樣的統計資料如果沒有也希望你們這個部分要好好去看一下那希望勞動部可以釐清所謂的家庭照顧跟長照"},{"start":20442.199,"end":20463.589,"text":"安排有什么差别那如果劳动部认为说支持长照安排价确实有需要那你们有责任告诉全国的民众全国的产业界跟老公朋友现行的家庭照顾价不足因应长照服务的需求了那未来两种价是不是要整并还是有优先顺序"},{"start":20464.509,"end":20473.823,"text":"先请完家庭照顾假再来请长照安排假这也是值得你们去研究的议题所以希望你们劳动部可以谋定而后动谢谢"},{"start":20483.499,"end":20497.608,"text":"好謝謝陳議員的發言那本日會議詢答全部結束委員楊瓊英徐欣盈邱振鈞蘇清泉所提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登空報現在做以下決定"},{"start":20498.905,"end":20514.757,"text":"一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內已書面回覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"167976","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167976","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4ed71c7deeceaafb54c30e9bbc489b48f67c21d93b3021e0bf12eae036270d068b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:59:37 - 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麻煩請石部長跟洪部長 麻煩兩位部長這位好"},{"start":19.789,"end":43.096,"text":"部長好 兩位部長好我們今天討論長照安排假的可行性原理我有看到媒體的一則報導引述的是日本早自1999年依《育兒戒護修業法》提供93天67%的資金的家庭照顧假我想要請教一下 日本有這樣的法律勞動部"},{"start":45.658,"end":55.534,"text":"清楚嗎那媒體報導之後勞動部的官員有沒有向部長報告日本這個法案的實質內容還有執行的成效如何"},{"start":57.337,"end":74.674,"text":"跟委員報告委員提到的這部分其實應該是他們留庭的部分他們其實應該有點像他們的這個他們在戒護修業那這部分是留庭的比較是留庭的概念那假的部分他們其實也有可是他比較是無心的部分對"},{"start":75.751,"end":101.842,"text":"所以你看整體那個他們執行成效怎麼樣有去看嗎有特別去看他們的執行成果我們可能還要再對執行的成果做進一步的瞭解但就制度上面我們是有去掌握的因為他們執行成效好壞喔這個是值得你們好好去研究一下他們的留庭的部分請的部分是比較低是比較低的"},{"start":102.725,"end":120.696,"text":"好那我就把問題拋出來這個是你們要去注意的那接下來就是我們台灣現在已經有這個家庭照顧假了那原則上是7天可以併入到這個市假共14天那不起薪但是也不可以影響到全勤"},{"start":121.536,"end":138.37,"text":"那現在呢又提出有幾就是有幾星的長照安排假那事實上實際上就是這個家庭照顧假那我要請教洪部長說其實我想要請教的是兩位部長就是說如果"},{"start":140.291,"end":159.867,"text":"假如我們今天推動的這個通過了齁兩種假都同時存在的時候那兩位部長又是剛好是這個又是事業單位的這個雇主那你會優先安排沒幾星的家庭照顧假還是要幾星的長照安排假我想先聽一下其實可能還是要看室友跟對象"},{"start":168.973,"end":188.196,"text":"因為家庭照顧假他的範圍是比較廣的就是他他發生的室友是什麼就比方說他如果是說他突然他要做小孩的照顧那這會是他的這個對象跟室友他會是一個選擇所以會要看他的室友"},{"start":189.367,"end":216.392,"text":"所以你要看你會他有員工請假了那對啊你要優先準他準他這個沒有幾星的還是有幾星的但是要看他的室友就是說他的室友是那如果都如果都符合那你要先你是雇主你會先給哪一種假現在常常安排假不是我們現在還在討論的事情嗎就是說假如通過了的話"},{"start":217.677,"end":221.024,"text":"我現在說假如通過的話因為這個問題都是你們會面臨到的問題嗎我覺得這可能要跟勞工一起討論"},{"start":226.383,"end":248.089,"text":"那施部長看法怎麼樣?跟委員說明,如果從我們早上在討論的長照安排下,概念上比較像說因為這個家庭剛開始有一個需要長照服務的私人家屬的時候,那需要有一些安排跟適應。"},{"start":249.79,"end":265.43,"text":"所以他可能都是屬於第一次的這個概念所以跟家庭照顧假有點不一樣家庭照顧假可能是他已經變成是長照的對象但是他有時候需要譬如說他家裡的這個外勞他這個"},{"start":268.909,"end":289.751,"text":"離職或者是回去照顧他一下 類似像這樣不過回過頭來講 因為一個是有薪一個無薪那就要看企業主一定會考量成本如果薪資是保險給付的跟是他要去負擔的 當然這中間就會有不同"},{"start":290.709,"end":308.216,"text":"所以我想這一題主要是這個人性的分析站在就是說雖然好像是從僱主的角度去看但是這個直接受害或受惠的就是要請假的勞工所以"},{"start":311.172,"end":329.407,"text":"因為其實因為我們現在在討論因為我們把家庭照顧假跟這個長照安排假把它分開那分開會有分開的問題好那所以也為什麼分開今天衛福部就必須得坐在這裡"},{"start":330.228,"end":348.879,"text":"好那但是因為日本整個是把它放在一起那這個範圍擴大了就其實在程序上仔細去研究其實可能是可以掃掉很多不必要的困擾好所以所以我就點出來這樣子啦就認真想一想"},{"start":349.659,"end":368.308,"text":"好這個很簡單就是雇主的心態是什麼因為我們要推動這個那你一定要知道人家的心態人家的想法人家的問題你才可以這個功無不克嘛那所以這個很簡單的問題我相信大部分的雇主如果這個有選擇的話"},{"start":370.009,"end":399.138,"text":"大部分正常的都會從這個那個沒幾星的價先給嘛這很正常啊好 池部長你可以先請回座認真聽那所以啊這個實際上的問題在於這兩種價的差別那我們光從字面上去理解一般民眾可能會搞不清楚那既然是長照安排適用的條件是不是就是說長照服務的對象"},{"start":400.578,"end":412.327,"text":"但是這個長照的這個中央主管機關是衛福部也是今天的苦主我們再看來安排給架的這個中央主管機關勞動部那將來"},{"start":416.25,"end":431.57,"text":"給假的申請呢通過與否又是事業單位要去要去決定的事情但是事業單位他有沒有能力去認定長照的標準他有沒有這個能力"},{"start":433.217,"end":449.173,"text":"我想他們比較會看數字那萬一不同意給假的時候那勞工呢可能又告上地方政府勞工主管機關然後又是勞檢又是開罰然後再訴願事情恐怕就是沒完沒了那"},{"start":453.976,"end":469.502,"text":"我想我們在這裡很單純我可以去預期預見一些未來可能發生的狀況那我不知道部長的這個看法是怎樣你們這樣看起來到底是在解決問題造福民眾還是最後又製造一堆問題"},{"start":471.872,"end":494.929,"text":"跟委員說明其實現在關於這個長照安排價這個概念跟它的範疇說實話就像今天委員會其實大家都還在討論這其實並不是對甚至還有些概念不是很清楚對就是它不是大家不是已經把它界定的很清楚就像剛剛時務長說的你是要針對這個一個家庭它的長照初次長照安排來給還是那後面的其他呢還是如果"},{"start":496.29,"end":510.22,"text":"這個有一個勞工說他想要自己回去照顧長輩那這要給嗎所以他的涵蓋的範疇跟適用的範疇其實還在大家還在討論這其實還在還在計時管理的過程所以還沒有那麼快就界定"},{"start":511.161,"end":537.549,"text":"對我另外再拋出一個問題這個你們可能大家都沒有想到就是說我們是不是要再考慮這樣的假這樣的補貼對於這個家人沒有長照安排的需求然後是不是會產生不公平的現象增加30天六成薪那延伸出來的勞務呢可能就要有沒有申請的這些有上有每天去上班的勞工朋友去做"},{"start":538.349,"end":560.301,"text":"或者甚至雇主自己要下海去做這都是有可能那勢必會增加其他人的工時和工作量那換句話說是不是對於不申請或者沒有申請需求的勞工朋友變成是一種變相的這個懲罰性條款因為他事情變多嘛可是他錢沒有變多啊還是還是你們有想說勞動部有"},{"start":562.762,"end":588.385,"text":"有會去想這個配套對於工作量增加要去share請假的人的工作的這些人那我們是不是有什麼樣的配套第一個當然是謝謝委員的提醒但不過的確這整個議題其實他的評估跟研議其實還沒有走到現在委員講的這個段落那目前其實還在比較前期的需求的掌握跟評估了解的狀況"},{"start":590.166,"end":605.406,"text":"那當然各界的聲音因為有些會期望有些也會有一些覺得要注意的事情那我覺得這些事情都應該被綜合的思考跟討論所以今天我們的這個我們的質詢其實也是本席也提出很多的提醒"},{"start":606.027,"end":634.154,"text":"好那我想這個很多都是兩面刃的問題那我覺得身為部長你應該要可以預見未來你會面臨到什麼當我們要做一個決策的時候那你有一個好的配套如果說今天來share的share掉其他請假同仁的這些工作的同仁那他們可以有獲得比較好的這個怎麼樣的獎勵或者是"},{"start":635.694,"end":658.433,"text":"一些津貼那當然我想對其他人是比較公平但是這些錢要從哪裡出還是要從僱主被扒一層皮再出一次好 這個都是大家要去思考的那本席要強調的是就是說讓有需要的請假的人"},{"start":660.114,"end":683.465,"text":"讓有需要的人去請假那特別是這個勞動領域的這個假是兩面任務問題但這也是非常專業而且很嚴肅的課題啦假要怎麼給怎麼放不僅涉及到這個工時的彈性調整也影響到整個經濟的發展那如何兼顧同樣的就是說你怎麼樣兩邊都顧得很好"},{"start":684.625,"end":706.773,"text":"我想同样的价对于这个热单滚滚的这些产业影响到了这个产能不足的问题对于这个关税冲击然后订单减少不得不采取减班休息的产业他们可能也会增加这个人事成本负担然后影响到企业的生存那企业无法生存的时候他最后"},{"start":708.342,"end":735.231,"text":"回過頭來傷害到的吃虧的還是勞工過去我們是為了勞工的七天假已經付出社會很慘痛的代價所以不得不慎重就是說我們98%都是中小企業那企業內有沒有能力去因應也是需要去思考評估的你不能說你沒有任何評估然後就貿然立刻行動"},{"start":736.371,"end":763.817,"text":"好那最後呢本席還是要回到就是說現有的這個家庭照顧價的這個實施成效去講啊那請問勞動部114年家庭照顧價的這個申請的人數或比例是多少那個跟我們報告我們114年統計那個調查員工有意願申請家庭照顧價是4.2%那沒有沒有意願沒有需求家庭照顧價是95.8%"},{"start":766.451,"end":793.818,"text":"所以不到不到一成這是我們的調查這是醫院的調查並不是實際上面的狀況那有沒有什麼指標來衡量就是說7天的家庭照顧假不夠了那需要再延長然後需要去擠薪有沒有跟跟委員說明第一個因為當然外界很多討論家庭照顧假要不要擠薪的問題那可是擠薪的話就會分兩個第一個是要由僱主出還是要由政府出"},{"start":795.134,"end":815.141,"text":"那如果不由雇主出的話是要由政府出的話那是當然所需要的費用其實這個所需要的經費就蠻龐大的那這的確會需要考慮目前政府的一些相關的財政負擔能力的問題我想在這邊再跟你們問個資料啦"},{"start":815.641,"end":843.355,"text":"因為我們現在正在執行的這個勞動政策那政策執行好不好需不需要調整勞動部都有責任跟義務就是說讓我們全國民眾來了解嘛那這其中12歲以下的幼童跟年長的這個照顧請假的比例你們清楚嗎有沒有資料12歲的幼童跟年長照顧的比例你說為了這事情而請假還是我們可能要再調一下資料看一下有沒有這樣相關的統計手上有沒有"},{"start":845.404,"end":865.192,"text":"你們有算有有統計過嗎如果沒有就說沒有 我的意思是說顧老跟顧小把它給分開來看的話他的比例大概多少我們可能要再調一下資料你們有沒有做過這樣的統計有或沒有你們可以我們就是現在是有三歲六歲的受雇人數"},{"start":866.343,"end":883.394,"text":"那個時間的關係你們這個後續因為跟你們要這個是不知道你們有沒有統計過因為我們在外面也看不到這樣的統計資料如果沒有也希望你們這個部分要好好去看一下那希望勞動部可以釐清所謂的家庭照顧跟長照"},{"start":884.215,"end":902.822,"text":"安排有什麼差別那如果勞動部認為說支持長照安排價確實有需要那你們有責任告訴全國的民眾全國的產業界跟勞工朋友現行的家庭照顧價不足因應長照服務的需求了那未來兩種價是不是要整併還是有優先順序"},{"start":906.303,"end":915.839,"text":"好 先请完家庭照顾假再来请长照安排假这也是值得你们去研究的议题所以希望你们劳动部可以谋定而后动谢谢"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}